# I'm Finally Done With Wife's EA



## sarcasmo

I have to thank the guys over at NMMNG for helping me get over my fear and finally get up the courage to address this issue head-on, despite the potential outcomes.

FYI, my back-story:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/66745-do-i-confront-her.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/71730-recreational-companionship.html

I feel like tonight or tomorrow will be the day to finally set my boundary. I might wait until next week (kids keep us super busy, but no more excuses!), but I feel I'm ready to do it now. She has her IC tomorrow and we have date night on Friday. I figure we can spend date night figuring out the conditions of our separation or the conditions of our reconcilliation. Her choice.

Thanks to your support, I plan on setting a clear boundary: I will not be married to a woman who has a boyfriend. I will not share my wife with another man. If she cannot commit to a No Contact agreement (with the OM), then she has to move out and I will file for divorce. I will give her until Friday night to decide. That way she can talk it through with her IC.

The way I look at that, her IC is convinced I have abandonment issues, which I do, so I believe that's why she allows her to continue this affair. If the IC and my wife se that despite my abandonment issues, I'm ready to face them head-on, they may change their tune. No matter what she decides, this is for me. I just want to time it so she can work our her answer in her IC session.

I do plan on letting her know I will support her if she chooses to remain with me. I know if she will be experiencing a signifigant loss, and while I resent that, she will need reassurance that I can support her and I wont abandon her. In addition, there is no pressure to work on our marriage yet. This choice alone is a huge step towards reconcilliaiton. Once she moves out of her grief phase, we can move into repairing the marriage. 

One more quick question. She has this vision of us continuing to be best friends after divorce. Spending time together with the kids, vacationing together, etc. I'm very forward thinking and this sounds interesting, but I don't think it's realistic. My parents had an awful divorce, but I know how to avoid that and remain friendly. But BFF's? That seems like too much. For one I'm not sure I can handle being around her in that situation. Maybe in time, when I'm stronger I can better handle it, but from here I feel like will just reopen the scars. 

In addition, the bigger reason is how it will impact the kids. From what I understand, having these "family" times together just confuses them. Makes them relive the divorce over and over again. I don't want to perpetuate their pain. I know my wife views us as living as friends the last few years of our marriage so this seems reasonable to her, but is this really a realistic idea? I feel like I need to hit her with a dose of reality, but maybe I'm being too harsh of her view of divorce.

Thanks again to everyone for helping me on my journey.


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## Amplexor

sarcasmo said:


> I feel like tonight or tomorrow will be the day to finally set my boundary. I might wait until next week (kids keep us super busy, but no more excuses!), but I feel I'm ready to do it now. She has her IC tomorrow and we have date night on Friday. I figure we can spend date night figuring out the conditions of our separation or the conditions of our reconcilliation. Her choice.


I feel for you. I went through this process over 4 years ago. And like you, an ultimatum was the only option left. My advice is that you are fully mentally prepared for this either way.

For me that was going through a "what if" discovery period. From putting together a long term budget, to visualizing items I would keep or take with me and researching apartment options. 
The process was what I discovered to be "walking through that door" that I had been afraid to breach. Life without her. It put it in perspective and let me look at it logistically not emotionally. It prepped me for the conversation and the consequences. 

What you are about to do probably scares the **** out of you as it did me, but it needed to be done. Do it in an environment you can control without interference. Do it with as much poise, composure and emotional stability as you can muster. Is short, to the point, stern and determined. Make sure she understands you are not afraid to do this.




sarcasmo said:


> Thanks to your support, I plan on setting a clear boundary: I will not be married to a woman who has a boyfriend. I will not share my wife with another man. If she cannot commit to a No Contact agreement (with the OM), then she has to move out and I will file for divorce. I will give her until Friday night to decide. That way she can talk it through with her IC.


Perfect, say it as succinctly as you have stated here.



sarcasmo said:


> I do plan on letting her know I will support her if she chooses to remain with me. I know if she will be experiencing a signifigant loss, and while I resent that, she will need reassurance that I can support her and I wont abandon her. In addition, there is no pressure to work on our marriage yet. This choice alone is a huge step towards reconcilliaiton. Once she moves out of her grief phase, we can move into repairing the marriage.


I may get some disagreement from the forum, but IMO you are spot on in recognizing that she will take time to turn. As a matter of fact, she will probably resent the hell out of you for forcing her hand. In our case I put a arbitrary 6 month period to let her get her feet back under herself. We still co parented, spent time together and I continued to work on my issues. I did not date or romance her, just let her stabilize. Once that seemed to happen we had the next conversation about the next steps in the marriage.




sarcasmo said:


> One more quick question. She has this vision of us continuing to be best friends after divorce. Spending time together with the kids, vacationing together, etc. I'm very forward thinking and this sounds interesting, but I don't think it's realistic. My parents had an awful divorce, but I know how to avoid that and remain friendly. But BFF's? That seems like too much. For one I'm not sure I can handle being around her in that situation. Maybe in time, when I'm stronger I can better handle it, but from here I feel like will just reopen the scars.



Why, you owe her nothing and she needs to understand that. Take the safety net away from her. She wants life with him or life away from you then she goes all in. You can continue to be a great father. You can co-parent with her civilly and with the mutual interests of the kids, but that's it. You fully intend to move on in life and she needs to too.

Good luck to you in this. I had this conversation with my wife 4.5 years ago. We are still together, very happy and in a loving marriage and TOM is long gone.


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## Voltaire

sarcasmo said:


> One more quick question. She has this vision of us continuing to be best friends after divorce.


This is BS - just her trying to reduce her guilt by making demands of you. If you can still be friends afterwards she really didn't hurt you *that *much, did she, so she doesn't need to feel *too *bad about it. 

I hate it when the WS twists the knife just to make themselves feel better.

The correct answer is that she is not your friend. She lied to you and betrayed you. No friend does that.


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## The bishop

sarcasmo said:


> I have to thank the guys over at NMMNG for helping me get over my fear and finally get up the courage to address this issue head-on, despite the potential outcomes.
> 
> FYI, my back-story:
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/66745-do-i-confront-her.html
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/71730-recreational-companionship.html
> 
> I feel like tonight or tomorrow will be the day to finally set my boundary. I might wait until next week (kids keep us super busy, but no more excuses!), but I feel I'm ready to do it now. She has her IC tomorrow and we have date night on Friday. I figure we can spend date night figuring out the conditions of our separation or the conditions of our reconcilliation. Her choice.
> 
> Thanks to your support, I plan on setting a clear boundary: I will not be married to a woman who has a boyfriend. I will not share my wife with another man. If she cannot commit to a No Contact agreement (with the OM), then she has to move out and I will file for divorce. * I will give her until Friday night to decide. That way she can talk it through with her IC.*
> 
> The way I look at that, her IC is convinced I have abandonment issues, which I do, so I believe that's why she allows her to continue this affair. If the IC and my wife se that despite my abandonment issues, I'm ready to face them head-on, they may change their tune. * No matter what she decides, this is for me. I just want to time it so she can work our her answer in her IC session.*
> I do plan on letting her know I will support her if she chooses to remain with me. I know if she will be experiencing a signifigant loss, and while I resent that, she will need reassurance that I can support her and I wont abandon her. In addition, there is no pressure to work on our marriage yet. This choice alone is a huge step towards reconcilliaiton. Once she moves out of her grief phase, we can move into repairing the marriage.
> 
> One more quick question. She has this vision of us continuing to be best friends after divorce. Spending time together with the kids, vacationing together, etc. I'm very forward thinking and this sounds interesting, but I don't think it's realistic. My parents had an awful divorce, but I know how to avoid that and remain friendly. But BFF's? That seems like too much. For one I'm not sure I can handle being around her in that situation. Maybe in time, when I'm stronger I can better handle it, but from here I feel like will just reopen the scars.
> 
> In addition, the bigger reason is how it will impact the kids. From what I understand, having these "family" times together just confuses them. Makes them relive the divorce over and over again. I don't want to perpetuate their pain. I know my wife views us as living as friends the last few years of our marriage so this seems reasonable to her, but is this really a realistic idea? I feel like I need to hit her with a dose of reality, but maybe I'm being too harsh of her view of divorce.
> 
> Thanks again to everyone for helping me on my journey.


Why let her decide? Why give her time? That is a very weak position and usually unsuccessful. She has been controlling you and you keep allowing it. Coming to her with that weak sauce... time to decide, I give you until a day to make your decision. This is what she hears when you allow her to decide... Please please please pick me.... it is weak. 

Don't you think it is time to be strong? Stop being affaid of making the decision for her.


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## Toffer

sarcasmo said:


> I feel like tonight or tomorrow will be the day to finally set my boundary. I might wait until next week (kids keep us super busy, but no more excuses!), but I feel I'm ready to do it now.
> 
> *Do not wait. Move forward ASAP. Waiting has gotten you to the point you find yourself at now!*
> 
> One more quick question. She has this vision of us continuing to be best friends after divorce. Spending time together with the kids, vacationing together, etc.
> 
> *Uh, NO! Explain to her that BFFs would not behave in this way. If she wants a friend after you divorce, tell her to get a dog. Tell her that the only dealings you plan on having with her will be about finances and the kids. You'll no longer be interested in her day and how her life is going.*


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## Gabriel

*This could have been written by me 2 years ago. Take it from someone who thought JUST LIKE YOU, who had a wife who said the EXACT SAME THING.*
The ultimatum you have planned is the only solution, and, I would be willing to wager, that she will comply with it. Begrudgingly? Yes. Will there be some resentment? Yes. But in the end you AND your wife will respect you more. 

If you back down from this, she will never respect you again. Promise. And she'll ramp up the relationship with the OM again.

Regarding the ridiculousness of being BFFs after divorce...this is the ULTIMATE in cake eating. Oh, your wife will get to have both of you! How awesome for her! She can still have the stability of family holidays and family vacations, and opening presents on Christmas, and screw her new, exciting man! With no awkwardness anymore! Amazing!

My tone is not to make fun of you. It's to illuminate how dumb that concept is. My wife made this exact speech to me. I told her she was batsh!t crazy if she thought we were going to continue spending holidays together, etc, and be the best of friends. I asked her how many of her divorced friends did this. Guess what? NONE! There is a reason for that.

Oh, and my wife actually made this speech to me before her affair, as part of her, "I'm not happy" rant. 

But for a wife to say this AFTER an affair?? Seriously? My God.

*Last, my wife said to me, during the early stages of our reconciliation, that the thought of me being cold to her, not being loving toward her and being businesslike only, absolutely killed her. She couldn't handle that consequence. Learn from this Sarcasmo...*


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## walkonmars

What does his wife say? You have exposed the affair to her right? 

If not, why not? She has a right to know why her marriage is failing. 

Your wife wants to remain a cake-eater after divorce. Disabuse her of that notion. She wants a boyfriend and a husband? NO WAY

She wants a friend after divorce? Get her a dog. She's been treating you like one. Get her a replacement.


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## sarcasmo

walkonmars said:


> What does his wife say? You have exposed the affair to her right?
> 
> If not, why not? She has a right to know why her marriage is failing.


I have not exposed them. He is separated, awaiting divorce. At this point, it wouldn't make much sense. Her friends already know, and to be honest, while they initally felt bad for me and couldn't support her, they are now doing the same sh*t in their marriages. Madness is like gravity. All it takes is a little push! Everyone around us is going friggin crazy!


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## LetDownNTX

This is one of the things my husband brought up in counseling...that everyone at every place he has ever worked has cheated. They are all cheaters. Because Im a SAHM and work for myself he doesnt think that I know what goes on in the real world. Im not stupid, I just dont think that if everyone jumps off a cliff you should jump too!!


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## walkonmars

sarcasmo said:


> ... He is separated, awaiting divorce. ...


You discovered this independently or are you relying on your wife's word? Because her words are meaningless. 

Even if it's true, you should still reach out to her. Due to the length of your wife's affair, it could impact her divorce if one is actually in the works. 

Second point:
If he is in fact getting divorced, it bodes poorly for her disengaging from him. If he soon to be eligible, then they've likely been planning for that day. The day you'll be served if she's honorable. BTW - what makes you think it isn't physical? Not that it matters at this juncture.

thirdly: Do you mean some of her female friends are also engaging in adultery? Some group of friends she's chosen!


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## Gabriel

LetDownNTX said:


> This is one of the things my husband brought up in counseling...that everyone at every place he has ever worked has cheated. They are all cheaters. Because Im a SAHM and work for myself he doesnt think that I know what goes on in the real world. Im not stupid, I just dont think that if everyone jumps off a cliff you should jump too!!


While infidelity is commonplace, it is not universal. There are many couples not touched by it. Many. However, it is contagious, much like divorce is. If those around you are doing it, it becomes more acceptable for you.


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## NextTimeAround

Oh, yeah that friend thing....... afriend of mine started dating her husband well after his divorce. But, he had spent many years being "friends" with his ex wife and doing visitation as if they all three were still a family.

the daughter was 14 when my friend started dating him, and what she said the daughter said, sounded as if the wife had planted words in her mouth. 

My friend's future husband was not allowed to do visitation with his daughter alone at that point and he had to forfeit the relationship with her completely.

My advice to anyone, maybe especially to men,do not do this friend thing because they ex wife may get just a little too comfortable when you are finally ready to have a relationship of your own again. My friend said that the ex wife had had at least one boyfriend since the divorce.


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## Voltaire

sarcasmo said:


> I have not exposed them. He is separated, awaiting divorce. At this point, it wouldn't make much sense. Her friends already know, and to be honest, while they initally felt bad for me and couldn't support her, they are now doing the same sh*t in their marriages.


I'm on the other end of that trade. My "awaiting divorce" STBXW is having A. It doesn't feel good, and if I didn't know about it (because she is so blatant) I would want to. 

Besides, just because he has said that his is separated awaiting divorce doesn't mean its true. He could be lying to her, or she could be lying to you. And "divorcing" could mean "with vague plans to go through a divorce at some stage if things don't work out" rather than actively going through the D process. 

It also makes a big difference who is divorcing whom in the other marriage. If she is divorcing him then she might not care, but if he is divorcing her (my situation) and she is not happy about this she will care a great deal - this is my situation.


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## sarcasmo

Voltaire said:


> I'm on the other end of that trade. My "awaiting divorce" STBXW is having A. It doesn't feel good, and if I didn't know about it (because she is so blatant) I would want to.
> 
> Besides, just because he has said that his is separated awaiting divorce doesn't mean its true. He could be lying to her, or she could be lying to you. And "divorcing" could mean "with vague plans to go through a divorce at some stage if things don't work out" rather than actively going through the D process.
> 
> It also makes a big difference who is divorcing whom in the other marriage. If she is divorcing him then she might not care, but if he is divorcing her (my situation) and she is not happy about this she will care a great deal - this is my situation.


I have no reason to believe my WS, but in some cases I do trust her. The POSOM is divorcing his wife and I do believe she is crazy from the stuff my WS has talked about. 

1) I don't want any negative attention put on my family (the woman comes from a gun owning family), and 2) they own their own business and she takes care of the finances. Before she came around to the idea of divorce, she told him she had "cooked the books" and would try to use that against him since he signed everything. He has a lawyer and is in the clear, but again, I don't want any part of this craziness. I want to steer clear of the friggin people.

I have no reason to doubt any of this. It is all too crazy to be anything but true.


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## northland

sarcasmo said:


> I figure we can spend date night figuring out the conditions of our separation or the conditions of our reconcilliation. Her choice.


There's your problem right there. 

"Her choice".

Despite her cheating on you -and if she's meeting with the guy face to face as you seem to infer from your other thread then it's physical/sexual not just an EA- _you're still leaving it all up to her._including what you're going to talk about, the conditions of possible reconciliation, etc. 

That's weak, unattractive, it gives her all the power and leaves you with no self respect.

She's not going to want back in if she doesn't respect you. She won't respect you until you grow a set and tell her it's your choice, not hers, what may happen going forward with the marriage.


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## TRy

sarcasmo said:


> I have no reason to believe my WS, but in some cases I do trust her. The POSOM is divorcing his wife and I do believe she is crazy from the stuff my WS has talked about.
> 
> 1) I don't want any negative attention put on my family (the woman comes from a gun owning family), and 2) they own their own business and she takes care of the finances. Before she came around to the idea of divorce, she told him she had "cooked the books" and would try to use that against him since he signed everything. He has a lawyer and is in the clear, but again, I don't want any part of this craziness. I want to steer clear of the friggin people.
> 
> I have no reason to doubt any of this. It is all too crazy to be anything but true.


 You have every reason to doubt all of it. Every cheater paints their spouse in a negative light. Every cheater says that their spouse has some sort of mental issue. The only thing that you should not doubt is that your wife has also portrayed you in a negative way.

You have been too weak and understanding of her cheating. She and her friends which all know have lost respect for you because of this. It is time to be strong. Do not wait to confront. She has had way too much time to cake eat. Tell her that she must decide right now. Not Friday. Not tomorrow. Not even later today, but right now. 

When you confront, stop talking about her needs and start talking about yours. Make a point of not talking about her needs at all. Tell her that you have had enough of her disrespecting you with the other man and to her friends and that you are ready to move on. Tell her that if she wants to stay in the marriage she must decide now and convince you as to why you should give her another chance. Tell her that you are OK with divorce, but that if you do divorce you do not want to even know her much less be her friend. Tell her that it is not that you want to hate her, it is that you want to forget this waste of your life. That when you find a real wife that understands what it means to be faithful, that you want to focus all of your attention on this good wife and that you do not want to waste anymore energy on a cheating ex-wife. Tell her that now that you have accepted this, you feel that a huge weight has been lifted.

This will shock her. No matter if she is too far gone or decides to stay in the marriage, she will look at you with more respect than she has had for you in a very long time. This respect actually increases the odds that she will want to stay in the marriage, but to be truthful it may be too little too late. Either way, you will be able to hold your head up high.

I wish you luck. Know that there is someone out there that will love you for who you are and that will thank God everyday that she found you. Trust me she is out there. You do not have to settle as your wife's backup plan.


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## BobSimmons

Voltaire said:


> This is BS - just her trying to reduce her guilt by making demands of you. If you can still be friends afterwards she really didn't hurt you *that *much, did she, so she doesn't need to feel *too *bad about it.
> 
> I hate it when the WS twists the knife just to make themselves feel better.
> 
> The correct answer is that she is not your friend. She *lied to you and betrayed you. No friend does that*.


Can I get an amen please! I mean really punch me in the face a few times then give me a hug and everything is forgiven eh?


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## BobSimmons

oh and another thing...you're already sunk, she should have chosen you yesterday not give her an ultimatum until X day. There should be no choice...you have no choice so why should she? But good luck to you anyway.


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## Machiavelli

sarcasmo said:


> I have not exposed them. He is separated, awaiting divorce. At this point, it wouldn't make much sense. Her friends already know, and to be honest, while they initally felt bad for me and couldn't support her, they are now doing the same sh*t in their marriages. Madness is like gravity. All it takes is a little push! Everyone around us is going friggin crazy!


It has long been noted that adultery moves through female social circles like a wave. If the plague carrier isn't shunned and quaranteed, it spreads until all in the circle fall to it.

You've been way too tolerant of this situation since your first post. Instead of giving her the choice, you need to TELL her that YOU are divorcing her. If she can cry, crawl, plead, and beg enough to be believable, you can always call it off. Your choice, not hers. Take charge and wear the pants for once.


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## Gabriel

Machiavelli said:


> It has long been noted that adultery moves through female social circles like a wave. If the plague carrier isn't shunned and quaranteed, it spreads until all in the circle fall to it.
> 
> You've been way too tolerant of this situation since your first post. Instead of giving her the choice, you need to TELL her that YOU are divorcing her. If she can cry, crawl, plead, and beg enough to be believable, you can always call it off. Your choice, not hers. Take charge and wear the pants for once.


Just a slight adjustment, IMHO. Ultimatums are forced choices, so yes, she has a choice, but he's making the consequence of one of the options dire and clear.

When I FINALLY sacked up and gave my wife this ultimatum, there was no "decide by Friday" element. 

I said, "I cannot stand for this, having you keep OM as a friend." 

She repled, "So if I keep talking to him, you'll leave me?"

Me, "Yes."

She got mad, cried, and then send an NC email to the OM (with a cc to me) 5 seconds later.


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## sarcasmo

Gabriel said:


> *Last, my wife said to me, during the early stages of our reconciliation, that the thought of me being cold to her, not being loving toward her and being businesslike only, absolutely killed her. She couldn't handle that consequence. Learn from this Sarcasmo...*


To be clear, this was a good thing, right? Killed her in a good way, meaning she couldn't stand not getting your love and wanting to do whatever it takes to get it back. Right? We are talking 180 here, or a similar approach.

OK, other advice I have gleemed from this thread. 


Stay strong. Stick to the point. Try to keep my emotions under check.
Don't give her until Friday. Make her decide tonight or possibly sleep on it. Ideally tonight.
TELL her I'm divorcing her if she doesn't end the relationship. 
TELL her she is moving out if she doesn't end the relationship.
We will not be BFFs if we divorce. She is not treating me as a friend. She has lied to me a betrayed me. Friends don't do that to one another. Not to say our divorce wont be amicable for the kids, but get the idea out of your head that we will still be BFFs. How many dicorced people do we know that do this? None. There is a reason for that.
I should stay away from comforting her with words about being there for her during her period of recovery from the affair.
I'm really struggling with the last one. I do want to reassure her that I will be there for her. Validate that it isn't easy to let go of the POSOM. Let her know that I'm glad to develop my ability to meet her emotional needs as part of our marriage and look forward to doing that together. Maybe it's just the nice guy in me. Maybe it's the fact that I feel she needs to hear that from me because it's something I haven't said to her in the past. Maybe both. I want her to see that I'm strong and can take care of her/make her feel "safe". Not just one or the other.

Either way, this is going to happen tonight. Thanks again to everyone for their advice!


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## Gabriel

sarcasmo said:


> To be clear, this was a good thing, right? Killed her in a good way, meaning she couldn't stand not getting your love and wanting to do whatever it takes to get it back. Right? We are talking 180 here, or a similar approach.
> 
> OK, other advice I have gleemed from this thread.
> 
> 
> Stay strong. Stick to the point. Try to keep my emotions under check.
> Don't give her until Friday. Make her decide tonight or possibly sleep on it. Ideally tonight.
> TELL her I'm divorcing her if she doesn't end the relationship.
> TELL her she is moving out if she doesn't end the relationship.
> We will not be BFFs if we divorce. She is not treating me as a friend. She has lied to me a betrayed me. Friends don't do that to one another. Not to say our divorce wont be amicable for the kids, but get the idea out of your head that we will still be BFFs. How many dicorced people do we know that do this? None. There is a reason for that.
> I should stay away from comforting her with words about being there for her during her period of recovery from the affair.
> I'm really struggling with the last one. I do want to reassure her that I will be there for her. Validate that it isn't easy to let go of the POSOM. Let her know that I'm glad to develop my ability to meet her emotional needs as part of our marriage and look forward to doing that together. Maybe it's just the nice guy in me. Maybe it's the fact that I feel she needs to hear that from me because it's something I haven't said to her in the past. Maybe both. I want her to see that I'm strong and can take care of her/make her feel "safe". Not just one or the other.
> 
> Either way, this is going to happen tonight. Thanks again to everyone for their advice!


Yes, it was a good thing, meaning, she knew what she was about to lose. She couldn't have it both ways. Me or not me. Not me AND another dude after we divorced.

I actually disagree with the last bullet. It's delicate. Don't be overly cold about it. Don't grovel either. Just be the strong, silent, supportive man she needs. It will be hard for her. She is going to need you. But don't sit there waiting on her hand and foot about it. It's a balance. Follow?


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## TRy

sarcasmo said:


> I have not exposed them. He is separated, awaiting divorce. At this point, it wouldn't make much sense.


 Tell the OM's wife. She has a right to know why this is happening to her. She has a right to know that she is not crazy. Also, you will learn that your wife was not telling you the full truth about what was going on. Almost 100% of the time, the betrayed spouse learns that the other cheated upon spouse is a normal person that, either did not know about the affair, or if they did have useful information to share with the other betrayed upon spouse. Contact her now. Not out of spite, but out of decency. 

It is funny how cheaters logic says that while it is OK for them to share the innermost secretes of their spouse with their affair partner, it is not OK for the spouses that are begin cheated on to even talk to each other. Your wife has clearly lost her way, stop letting her be your moral guide.


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## sarcasmo

Gabriel said:


> Yes, it was a good thing, meaning, she knew what she was about to lose. She couldn't have it both ways. Me or not me. Not me AND another dude after we divorced.
> 
> I actually disagree with the last bullet. It's delicate. Don't be overly cold about it. Don't grovel either. Just be the strong, silent, supportive man she needs. It will be hard for her. She is going to need you. But don't sit there waiting on her hand and foot about it. It's a balance. Follow?


Thanks. I do follow. Your reply to Machiavelli came after I had already sent that. I can definitely be stong and supportive.


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## Amplexor

Gabriel said:


> I actually disagree with the last bullet. It's delicate. Don't be overly cold about it. Don't grovel either. Just be the strong, silent, supportive man she needs. It will be hard for her. She is going to need you. But don't sit there waiting on her hand and foot about it. It's a balance. Follow?


:iagree:

QFT! This will definitely be a pretty jacked up period. Keep strong and working on yourself and don't get sucked into the BS of the fall out. It will take time for her head to clear and a more grounded wife to emerge.


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## Toffer

Trust But Verify - Ronald Reagan

Wiser words have never been spoken


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## Soifon

sarcasmo said:


> Maybe it's just the nice guy in me. Maybe it's the fact that I feel she needs to hear that from me because it's something I haven't said to her in the past. Maybe both. I want her to see that I'm strong and can take care of her/make her feel "safe". Not just one or the other.


When I think of a strong man that can take care of me and make me feel safe I think of a man that stands up for himself and therefore can stand up for me. Not a man that coddles me and treats me like a pet that needs taken care of or doted on. IMO the way you are viewing this isn't attractive and doesn't come across how you are intending.


----------



## The bishop

Soifon said:


> When I think of a strong man that can take care of me and make me feel safe I think of a man that stands up for himself and therefore can stand up for me. Not a man that coddles me and treats me like a pet that needs taken care of or doted on. IMO the way you are viewing this isn't attractive and doesn't come across how you are intending.


I agree with this. Allowing her to cry, grovel, and act out, all because she is missing her OM isn't going to help you win her back. The more you show strengh the better chance you have. 

Right now your mindset is.... I hope she picks me and I don't want to be to tough and drive her to him.... you really need to change that. I am not saying you can't be supportive but you and only you get to decide how this all plays out. She needs to be begging you not the other way around. She needs to be supporting you in YOUR recovery, not the other way around. 

I am a cheater and I can't stress enough how important it is to be strong and take control. I have had OW's tell me their BS's is so sad and crying and they really don't want them.... ****ty isn't it? Unfortunitely you are right there right now, and your only hope is to stop acting scared. 

It has been said here many times, and it is so so true.... you have to be willing to end your marriage to save it.


----------



## warlock07

sarcasmo said:


> I have not exposed them. He is separated, awaiting divorce. At this point, it wouldn't make much sense. Her friends already know, and to be honest, while they initally felt bad for me and couldn't support her, they are now doing the same sh*t in their marriages. Madness is like gravity. All it takes is a little push! Everyone around us is going friggin crazy!


Don't trust him. He could have lied to your wife. Fact: Scumbags who go around and destroy marriages are not the most honest people around. Talk to his wife and tell him what has been going on for the last few months. 

And you do realize that their relationship is physical, right ?

And finally, your wife is not as noble as you think she is. She could have found a single guy if she was so unhappy. No go and destroy two marriages.


----------



## sarcasmo

It's over. She chose divorce. I did really good for the first part of the confrontation. Set my boundary. Stayed calm and clear. All she could say was "I'm not moving out. I'm not abandoning my kids." (because she's so available right now)

She really didn't have much to say. She continues to insist this is about our marriage and not the EA. She is too afraid to enter back into the marriage. Fearing that she will become that person she doesn't like again. I understand this. It's the toxic dance we have played for a long time. My passivity played a big role in that, but she doesn't accept that I'm committed to change. Doesn't want to take a leap of faith and see if we can be better.

From there I should have walked away, but that's where I blew it. Now I just seem like the blabbering, pleading husband again. Any respect I gainined initially is gone. I screwed it up, but in reality, I didn't have much of a chance either.

The sad thing is I can tell she's not done with me. I can feel it in her tone. Maybe it's just sadness and tears over a dead marriage, but I feel part of her wants us to be OK and she can't overcome her fears. Maybe I'm just seeing what I want to see and I need to move on. 

In her eyes, she has ben trying to save our marriage. She's been living her life, trying to be a better Mom and person, hoping that she will feel something for me again. I bluntly said, how can you when he has taken over that place in your heart? She still doesn't see that.

So. Where do I go from here? Filing for divorce is obvious. I have to follow through on that. But who moves out? She refuses to. I'm a mess. Regretting even trying, but I know something had to change. I couldn't live like that any longer. Tomorrow is a new day.


----------



## warlock07

> The sad thing is I can tell she's not done with me. I can feel it in her tone. Maybe it's just sadness and tears over a dead marriage, but I feel part of her wants us to be OK and she can't overcome her fears. Maybe I'm just seeing what I want to see and I need to move on.
> 
> In her eyes, she has ben trying to save our marriage. She's been living her life, trying to be a better Mom and person, hoping that she will feel something for me again. I bluntly said, how can you when he has taken over that place in your heart? She still doesn't see that.


Oh come on!! Not again!! If she tells you something, believe it. That is what sane people do.


----------



## Chaparral

sarcasmo said:


> I have to thank the guys over at NMMNG for helping me get over my fear and finally get up the courage to address this issue head-on, despite the potential outcomes.
> 
> FYI, my back-story:
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/66745-do-i-confront-her.html
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/71730-recreational-companionship.html
> 
> I feel like tonight or tomorrow will be the day to finally set my boundary. I might wait until next week (kids keep us super busy, but no more excuses!), but I feel I'm ready to do it now. She has her IC tomorrow and we have date night on Friday. I figure we can spend date night figuring out the conditions of our separation or the conditions of our reconcilliation. Her choice.
> 
> Thanks to your support, I plan on setting a clear boundary: I will not be married to a woman who has a boyfriend. I will not share my wife with another man. If she cannot commit to a No Contact agreement (with the OM), then she has to move out and I will file for divorce. I will give her until Friday night to decide. That way she can talk it through with her IC.
> 
> The way I look at that, her IC is convinced I have abandonment issues, which I do, so I believe that's why she allows her to continue this affair. If the IC and my wife se that despite my abandonment issues, I'm ready to face them head-on, they may change their tune. No matter what she decides, this is for me. I just want to time it so she can work our her answer in her IC session.
> 
> I do plan on letting her know I will support her if she chooses to remain with me. I know if she will be experiencing a signifigant loss, and while I resent that, she will need reassurance that I can support her and I wont abandon her. In addition, there is no pressure to work on our marriage yet. This choice alone is a huge step towards reconcilliaiton. Once she moves out of her grief phase, we can move into repairing the marriage.
> 
> One more quick question. She has this vision of us continuing to be best friends after divorce. Spending time together with the kids, vacationing together, etc. I'm very forward thinking and this sounds interesting, but I don't think it's realistic. My parents had an awful divorce, but I know how to avoid that and remain friendly. But BFF's? That seems like too much. For one I'm not sure I can handle being around her in that situation. Maybe in time, when I'm stronger I can better handle it, but from here I feel like will just reopen the scars.
> 
> In addition, the bigger reason is how it will impact the kids. From what I understand, having these "family" times together just confuses them. Makes them relive the divorce over and over again. I don't want to perpetuate their pain. I know my wife views us as living as friends the last few years of our marriage so this seems reasonable to her, but is this really a realistic idea? I feel like I need to hit her with a dose of reality, but maybe I'm being too harsh of her view of divorce.
> 
> Thanks again to everyone for helping me on my journey.


Friends after divorce. This ain't lala land. She just wants her cake and eat it too. Be up front right off the bat that the only connection you have after divorce will be text and email. You will find a new wife and relationships with exes are off the table. 

She cheats on you and wants to be buddies.:rofl::rofl:


----------



## PreRaphaelite

sarcasmo said:


> So. Where do I go from here? Filing for divorce is obvious. I have to follow through on that. But who moves out? She refuses to. I'm a mess. Regretting even trying, but I know something had to change. I couldn't live like that any longer. Tomorrow is a new day.


It's never too late. File for divorce. Tell her it's over and you're not putting up with her behavior anymore. Tell her that she has to move out. Give her a time-line and tell her to be out by that date.

Tell her that you'll arrange a schedule to see the kids, and as for the being friends, tell her that you've no interest in it.


----------



## Amplexor

sarcasmo said:


> I bluntly said, how can you when he has taken over that place in your heart? She still doesn't see that.


Fog Speak. She won't until the reality hits her. Stay your course and begin divorce. Talk to an attorney immediately to get their perspective on who should stay and who should go. Even though you are in the same house do not interact with her other than on parenting, finances and the divorce process. What ever evidence you have of the affair put it together in a safe place. Do not get emotional in her presence, work on your self and your physical and emotional health. Expose the affair to the other man's wife.


----------



## sarcasmo

PreRaphaelite said:


> It's never too late. File for divorce. Tell her it's over and you're not putting up with her behavior anymore. Tell her that she has to move out. Give her a time-line and tell her to be out by that date.
> 
> Tell her that you'll arrange a schedule to see the kids, and as for the being friends, tell her that you've no interest in it.


Already told her to move out. She refuses.

Already told her we wont be friends for the sake of the kids.

I will be calling a lawyer today. No backing down from my boundary. I may be crumbling emotionally, but I will not back down.

I need to do a 180 and incorporate Marriage Builders Plan B at this point. This will help me move on. Especially if we decide to cohabitate due to neither of us wanting to leave the house. I need find new supports or shift my focus more to my existing supports. I'm not sure how to pull this off while cohabitating, but I'm going to do my best. 

Any thoughts/strategies for the 180 while cohabitating?


----------



## Almostrecovered

sarcasmo said:


> Any thoughts/strategies for the 180 while cohabitating?


most important parts-

don't be "mean" but just focus on yourself
-start looking your best and dressing well
-get out and do things that you find fun
-exercise and avoid alcohol/drugs
-make time for just you and your kids


----------



## warlock07

sarcasmo , do you know the extent of the relationship between them? I am assuming that it is already physical.


----------



## mg2977

sarcasmo,

First I am so sorry you are here. Also I am a BS who filed for divorce from my WS in November and we have been living in the same house this whole time (we have no kids though). 

It is very hard to apply the 180 when you see the person, but fortunately for me (i guess) after I served him with D papers, he was so mad that we did not speak at all for 7 weeks. If he tried to engage me, I would just either ignore him completely or speak to him as if he were colleague (this depended on what he asked me). 

I think the easiest way to get through this and apply the 180 is to completely focus on yourself and the kids, socialize as much as possible outside of the house, try to pretend this person is a stranger or a really bad roommate. Also I agree with the above saying dress well and take care of yourself. And never share with her what you are doing or with whom you are socializing - she is not entitled to information about your life anymore (unless it deals with the kids or divorce).

It is so hard but you can do it.


----------



## Shaggy

No one actuall as to move out. If she won't go, let her stay. Mst importantly, it's your house too do you should be staying put.

It's doesn't mean you have to engage her or be friendly. I don't mean be hostile, I mean to be cold and indifferent.

It also means that you come and go without getting her permission or giving her the details.


----------



## Shaggy

You reed to put the D papers not her hands as fast as possible now.

Also today separate your finances.


----------



## The bishop

this isn't over sarcasmo. But you really need to change your mindset and show her you can move on without her. I know it isn't easy to do, but it is a must. Her fog with the OM won't last, as long as you don't play into it. Be strong, consider it over and work towards yourself and your kids. She might beg you back (many have), she might not.... but YOU need to move on either way.


----------



## Gabriel

Agree with Shaggy - it's time for you to take charge and stop taking the passive role. You gave her the ultimatum and she refused. Now you need to back up your words with swift actions.


----------



## sarcasmo

warlock07 said:


> sarcasmo , do you know the extent of the relationship between them? I am assuming that it is already physical.


I really, truly believe her that it isn't physical, at least not full on sexual (today...might have gone there in the past). I know I have no reason to believe her. She has lied to me and betrayed me, but I sense that she is honest about everything they are doing. For example, little things like her coming home from volleyball in her dirty clothes. This is a woman that would always shower before sex if she was the least bit dirty. I can't imagine her changing that behaviour now.

Really, at this point it doesn't even matter.


----------



## Machiavelli

Shaggy said:


> You reed to put the D papers not her hands as fast as possible now.
> 
> Also today separate your finances.


All this with rapid dispatch.


----------



## Voltaire

sarcasmo said:


> This is a woman that would always shower before sex if she was the least bit dirty. I can't imagine her changing that behaviour now..


I made some similar judgement calls based on my WAW's habits and what I knew of her character. I was completely wrong. 

My STBXW is an elegant woman who loves clothes. I thought that if she was going out for sex she would dress very elegantly/sexily - nice dress, heels, sexy underwear. I felt safe when she went out in a fleece top, jeans and walking shoes because the "old" her would never wear that on a date, let alone for a sexual encounter. I was completely wrong. What she was actually doing was dressing just like POSOM. 

The wife I knew was extremely shy and self-conscious about her body. With the OM she was quite happy to start taking photos very early on in their relationship. Just knowing that hurts, of course, but I understand that it is far from uncommon for a woman to be very different (and far less inhibited) with an AP than with a H. 

So don't make any assumptions that she will behave with AP in the same way that she would have behaved with you.


----------



## Amplexor

Chris H. said:


> *Forum Rules:*
> 
> *1. Treat others on the forum with dignity and respect.*
> Personal attacks, hate speech, racist or sexist statements or attacks, sexual harassment, explicit sexual comments, promoting violence, will not be tolerated.


Insults hurled at the wayward are also included in this rule. Name calling will not be tolerated.


----------



## Toffer

Voltaire said:


> I made some similar judgement calls based on my WAW's habits and what I knew of her character. I was completely wrong.
> 
> My STBXW is an elegant woman who loves clothes. I thought that if she was going out for sex she would dress very elegantly/sexily - nice dress, heels, sexy underwear. I felt safe when she went out in a fleece top, jeans and walking shoes because the "old" her would never wear that on a date, let alone for a sexual encounter. I was completely wrong. What she was actually doing was dressing just like POSOM.
> 
> The wife I knew was extremely shy and self-conscious about her body. With the OM she was quite happy to start taking photos very early on in their relationship. Just knowing that hurts, of course, but I understand that it is far from uncommon for a woman to be very different (and far less inhibited) with an AP than with a H.
> 
> So don't make any assumptions that she will behave with AP in the same way that she would have behaved with you.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

You'd be surprised to learn what a woman will do for her "soulmate" that she never did for you!


----------



## lordmayhem

Toffer said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> You'd be surprised to learn what a woman will do for her "soulmate" that she never did for you!


Exactly, like in this thread:

"She/he did things with him/her"


----------



## Machiavelli

women don't want to reveal their "inner ****" to their husband, because then he won't respect her anymore. That stuff is reserved for the boyfriends.


----------



## Voltaire

lordmayhem said:


> Exactly, like in this thread:
> 
> "She/he did things with him/her"


Phew. I just read the entire threat - that's a hard read. Very upsetting stuff if you're in the middle of it, as I am.

It was tough but it helped, though, so thank you for pointing it out.


----------



## Voltaire

Machiavelli said:


> women don't want to reveal their "inner ****" to their husband, because then he won't respect her anymore. That stuff is reserved for the boyfriends.


Very true.

And I think it works the other way around. Husbands want to be "nice" with their wives so they don't think they're disgusting perverts - so they don't push for anything that could be considered too "dirty". The AP doesn't care - he can treat her like a complete ***** and if she doesn't like it he can just walk on to the next one - who might enjoy being treated that way.


----------



## Machiavelli

Voltaire said:


> Very true.
> 
> And I think it works the other way around. Husbands want to be "nice" with their wives so they don't think they're disgusting perverts - so they don't push for anything that could be considered too "dirty". The AP doesn't care - he can treat her like a complete ***** and if she doesn't like it he can just walk on to the next one - who might enjoy being treated that way.


Social "Science" tells us that women lose their sense of disgust as they become sexually aroused. To carry that study to it's logical sexual conclusion, it means the more aroused women become the less they are disgusted by sex acts that they have declared verboten. Then when they're pushed a bit by OM they fall right in. Then they're doing it and thinking "I'm so nasty.." and boom, it's a huge climax and they are hooked on that disgusting sex act they would never do.


----------



## Shaggy

So gentlemen the lesson we learn from the recent posts here is NEVER get married, always keep it at The GF stage of you want hot sex and passion.


----------



## Voltaire

Shaggy said:


> So gentlemen the lesson we learn from the recent posts here is NEVER get married, always keep it at The GF stage of you want hot sex and passion.


I have to say that I have very briefly considered adopting POSOM's modus operandi - find emotionally vulnerable women who are unhappy in their marriages, shower them with compliments and attention, use them for a while, dump them, rinse and repeat.

It would turn my stomach to actually do it, but you can see the attraction.


----------



## Machiavelli

Voltaire said:


> I have to say that I have very briefly considered adopting POSOM's modus operandi - find emotionally vulnerable women who are unhappy in their marriages, shower them with compliments and attention, use them for a while, dump them, rinse and repeat.
> 
> It would turn my stomach to actually do it, but you can see the attraction.


No need to do that, there are plenty of divorcees around who are more than happy to be part of a soft harem for a man who makes them tingle. I train enough of them that I should know.


----------



## Jack29

Machiavelli said:


> Social "Science" tells us that women lose their sense of disgust as they become sexually aroused. To carry that study to it's logical sexual conclusion, it means the more aroused women become the less they are disgusted by sex acts that they have declared verboten. Then when they're pushed a bit by OM they fall right in. Then they're doing it and thinking "I'm so nasty.." and boom, it's a huge climax and they are hooked on that disgusting sex act they would never do.


I'll jack the thread for just this post but this is a typical case of "moderation in everything". I have it from experience that if you're with a woman that wants it 3times a day than what Machiavelli says is the case, you can't have it that much often if its not nasty, but find yourself a woman who is ok with a daily (or even less) shagg and you'll be surprised how very nice mainstream sex will be, if you're only having it say only in the morning or every second day. And i don't like it even myself if i have to perform that often but hey "got to please the lady, right?"

Or rather "anything to please the little lady, right?"


----------



## 3Xnocharm

sarcasmo said:


> Already told her to move out. She refuses.
> 
> Already told her we wont be friends for the sake of the kids.
> 
> I will be calling a lawyer today. No backing down from my boundary. I may be crumbling emotionally, but I will not back down.
> 
> I need to do a 180 and incorporate Marriage Builders Plan B at this point. This will help me move on. Especially if we decide to cohabitate due to neither of us wanting to leave the house. I need find new supports or shift my focus more to my existing supports. I'm not sure how to pull this off while cohabitating, but I'm going to do my best.
> 
> Any thoughts/strategies for the 180 while cohabitating?


Dont engage in conversation with her at this point about the divorce, affair or anything related. She has made her choice, now you must follow through. Dont beg, dont plead, dont ask questions. Go about life like you are already divorced. She made it clear that she does not want to try, so you need to believe her.


----------



## sarcasmo

3Xnocharm said:


> Dont engage in conversation with her at this point about the divorce, affair or anything related. She has made her choice, now you must follow through. Dont beg, dont plead, dont ask questions. Go about life like you are already divorced. She made it clear that she does not want to try, so you need to believe her.


Thanks. I just reread Plan A and didn't realize there was a Carrot and a Stick part to it. I guess I was only doing the Carrot part. I was so afraid to incorporate the exposure. Primarily because I think the affair may have moved to kind of a limbo situation where they both wont move forward until they can both be all-in if you will. Plus, I fear the sh*t storm my wife will obviously rage through. She already has enough pent up anger about the situation. 

So, my questions. I've been doing the 180 for a day or so, and I feel like she just thinks I'm angry at her. Is that to be expected? Does that fade? Plan A calls for exposure, which I'm not comfortable with. Is Plan A a better option or will she think I'm just exposing it out of anger? I would do both, but I see some things that are in contention with each other. Like talking about/not talking about the good points of the marriage and supporting/not supporting the WS's emotional needs. 

Maybe I missed my shot at Plan A and 180 is my only option. Plan B won't work because neither of us want to move out. She agreed to divorce, but I may only pursue legal separation. Still not sure. Lawyer hasn't called me back yet!

Btw, we had one more talk and it was horrible. She truly feels we are incompatible. I can't be the partner she needs and she can't (doesn't want to be) the partner I need. Of course I said I can learn to support her the way she needs (think Love Languages, self improvement, etc), but she doesn't agree. She also hates passivity. Something I struggle with and I'm trying to fix. She hates who she becomes with me. Not news. Additionally, and I'm summarizing, I think the only reason she hasn't divorced me is because in so attached to her. As a Nice Guy, I have up my entire support system for her and alienated my family. I have no supports outside of her. I think it was too hard for her to leave me. Maybe she rationalized the pain of an affair as easier then the pain of divorce. I don't know. My words, not hers. 

Anyway, this may or may not be fog talk, but I heard a lot of this before the affair. I have no idea. I'm implementing the 180 for me as a way to detach from her. I do want to give my marriage a chance which is why I was asking about Plan A. Thanks again everyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

The 180 says to be happy and cheerful around her, how is she getting that you are angry out of that?


----------



## sarcasmo

chapparal said:


> The 180 says to be happy and cheerful around her, how is she getting that you are angry out of that?


Maybe I'm being too cold and indifferent towards her. I'm being fine to the kids and everyone else. I'm just not engaging in conversation. Ignoring texts. She has expressed this fear that I will hate her (no sh*t!!) and so she sees my actions as moving to a place of hatred. Maybe I need to be more friendly to her? Not as cold?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

sarcasmo said:


> Maybe I'm being too cold and indifferent towards her. I'm being fine to the kids and everyone else. I'm just not engaging in conversation. Ignoring texts. She has expressed this fear that I will hate her (no sh*t!!) and so she sees my actions as moving to a place of hatred. Maybe I need to be more friendly to her? Not as cold?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She's testing you and your resolve and you are failing.

Stick to the facts:

1. She has chosen the OM over you
2. She wants you to cave and be ok with her doing #1 and wants you to give your blessing.

You've told her its OM or you. So now you need to stick with the plan because caving at this point and being nice to her says she's getting #2 above, and you were just angry for a little while.

I suggest a few things:

1. On the subject of being her friend post D. Tell her to her face in a very calm voice "I will not be your friend after we D. You've chosen to abandon the marriage for another man. There is no way I could ever see you as a friend, friends don't betray friends like that. We will be two people who have shared parental responsibilities and nothing more"

2. You need to stop reverting back to negotiation and trying to find the terms of your surrender which will bring her back, she's got to choose to come back, and the best way for that is for you to get busy rebuilding you to be attractive to others. Women want what other women want.

Get yourself active outside the house in some kind of activity, ideally a physical one, that will also bring you into contact with single women. You aren't looking to hook one, but you are looking to get engaged and look like you could hook on if you chose to.

For you- new clothes, new haircut, new work out routine. You want to tone your muscles which means weights not just running.

If you can swing it, get yourself a hot car or pickup truck. You do not want to be driving the civic or accord or Taurus. You want a hot guy vehicle.


----------



## Chaparral

sarcasmo said:


> Maybe I'm being too cold and indifferent towards her. I'm being fine to the kids and everyone else. I'm just not engaging in conversation. Ignoring texts. She has expressed this fear that I will hate her (no sh*t!!) and so she sees my actions as moving to a place of hatred. Maybe I need to be more friendly to her? Not as cold?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him/her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him/her someone he/she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).*

Keep rereading the 180 till you exactly what you are doing. Folks unintentionally skip/ignore major points.

If you are divorcing and she says you are mad, tell her no, you are done and moving on to someone else soon.


----------



## Chaparral

Shaggy said:


> She's testing you and your resolve and you are failing.
> 
> Stick to the facts:
> 
> 1. She has chosen the OM over you
> 2. She wants you to cave and be ok with her doing #1 and wants you to give your blessing.
> 
> You've told her its OM or you. So now you need to stick with the plan because caving at this point and being nice to her says she's getting #2 above, and you were just angry for a little while.
> 
> I suggest a few things:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. On the subject of being her friend post D. Tell her to her face in a very calm voice "I will not be your friend after we D. You've chosen to abandon the marriage for another man. There is no way I could ever see you as a friend, friends don't betray friends like that. We will be two people who have shared parental responsibilities and nothing more"
> 
> 2. You need to stop reverting back to negotiation and trying to find the terms of your surrender which will bring her back, she's got to choose to come back, and the best way for that is for you to get busy rebuilding you to be attractive to others. Women want what other women want.
> 
> Get yourself active outside the house in some kind of activity, ideally a physical one, that will also bring you into contact with single women. You aren't looking to hook one, but you are looking to get engaged and look like you could hook on if you chose to.
> 
> For you- new clothes, new haircut, new work out routine. You want to tone your muscles which means weights not just running.
> 
> If you can swing it, get yourself a hot car or pickup truck. You do not want to be driving the civic or accord or Taurus. You want a hot guy vehicle.



*and you are not her babysitter, if you think she is going out, beat her to the punch*


----------



## IsthisInsanity?

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sarcasmo

chapparal said:


> *
> 
> 1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
> implore.
> 2. No frequent phone calls.
> 3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
> 4. Do not follow him/her around the house.
> 5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
> 6. Do not ask for help from family members.
> 7. Do not ask for reassurances.
> 8. Do not buy gifts.
> 9. Do not schedule dates together.
> 10. Do not spy on spouse.
> 11. Do not say "I Love You".
> 12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
> 13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
> 14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
> 15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
> 16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
> 17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
> 18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
> 19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him/her someone he/she would want to be around.
> 20. All questions about marriage should be put on
> hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).*
> 
> Keep rereading the 180 till you exactly what you are doing. Folks unintentionally skip/ignore major points.
> 
> If you are divorcing and she says you are mad, tell her no, you are done and moving on to someone else soon.


Thanks. Been trying to stick to it after the last conversation. I see you left a few out. 

A couple more quick clarifications. Intimacy isn't mentioned. Pretty sure I shouldn't hold hands or hug, and I certainly won't initiate any affection, but if she goes for a hug it hand hold what do I do? Say no thanks? Do it? Do no and explain that I'm trying to detach from you and this doesn't help me?

I'm not her babysitter. As soon as I put together done activities, we will use friends and family the nights we both go out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

sarcasmo said:


> Thanks. Been trying to stick to it after the last conversation. I see you left a few out.
> 
> A couple more quick clarifications. Intimacy isn't mentioned. Pretty sure I shouldn't hold hands or hug, and I certainly won't initiate any affection, but if she goes for a hug it hand hold what do I do? Say no thanks? Do it? Do no and explain that I'm trying to detach from you and this doesn't help me?
> 
> I'm not her babysitter. As soon as I put together done activities, we will use friends and family the nights we both go out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You keep a smile on your face and say "it would be great if you didn't actually touch me. Save it for your boyfriend."


----------



## Chaparral

For anything thing beyond absolutely neccessary to talk about your kids or finances she is now dead to you. Like a weird stranger you can't trust. Unless she says something to you just pretend she is not there. If hse says something, keep your answeres to one word one sylable answers. She fired you as her husband.

Have you separated your accts?


----------



## TRy

sarcasmo said:


> I was so afraid to incorporate the exposure. Primarily because I think the affair may have moved to kind of a limbo situation where they both wont move forward until they can both be all-in if you will. Plus, I fear the sh*t storm my wife will obviously rage through. She already has enough pent up anger about the situation.





sarcasmo said:


> Plan A calls for exposure, which I'm not comfortable with. Is Plan A a better option or will she think I'm just exposing it out of anger?





sarcasmo said:


> She agreed to divorce, but I may only pursue legal separation.





sarcasmo said:


> She truly feels we are incompatible. I can't be the partner she needs and she can't (doesn't want to be) the partner I need. Of course I said I can learn to support her the way she needs (think Love Languages, self improvement, etc), but she doesn't agree.





sarcasmo said:


> She also hates passivity. Something I struggle with and I'm trying to fix. She hates who she becomes with me.


 @sarcasmo: All of the above quotes came out of the same post by you. Read all of them, and then read the last one that I quoted where she says that she hates your “passivity”. Do you not see the irony of fearing to expose because you “fear the sh*t storm” from your wife and that she might think that you only exposed “it out of anger”? You fear her anger but you do not want her to think that you are angry for cheating on her? Do you not see how passive it is that after she agreed to a divorce, that you are thinking of “only pursue legal separation”? You acknowledge that she thinks that you are too passive and when she tells you that “you can’t be the partner she needs”, your answer to her is that you “can learn to support her the way she needs (think Love Languages, self improvement, etc)”? Again, do you not see the irony? She is telling you that you cannot meet her needs until you man up and stop being so passive, and your response to how to deal with this has been to fear her anger, promise to work harder to meet her needs, and to overall continue to be passive.

Here is an idea. How about you change course and stop being passive? How about giving your wife a reason to fear your anger instead of you fearing hers? Albert Einstein defined insanity as “doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” Get mad and let the chip fall where they fall. Stop caring about how you wife will feel, and just start caring about taking care of yourself; BTW that is the true spirit of the 180.


----------



## sarcasmo

TRy said:


> @sarcasmo: All of the above quotes came out of the same post by you. Read all of them, and then read the last one that I quoted where she says that she hates your “passivity”. Do you not see the irony of fearing to expose because you “fear the sh*t storm” from your wife and that she might think that you only exposed “it out of anger”? You fear her anger but you do not want her to think that you are angry for cheating on her? Do you not see how passive it is that after she agreed to a divorce, that you are thinking of “only pursue legal separation”? You acknowledge that she thinks that you are too passive and when she tells you that “you can’t be the partner she needs”, your answer to her is that you “can learn to support her the way she needs (think Love Languages, self improvement, etc)”? Again, do you not see the irony? She is telling you that you cannot meet her needs until you man up and stop being so passive, and your response to how to deal with this has been to fear her anger and to be passive?
> 
> Here is an idea. How about you change course and stop being passive? How about giving your wife a reason to fear your anger instead of you fearing hers? Albert Einstein defined insanity as “doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” Get mad and let the chip fall where they fall. Stop caring about how you wife will feel and reach, and just start caring about taking care of yourself; BTW that is the true spirit of the 180.


Ok. The 180 stated not to be mad. Do I even need to expose them, since she insists our marriage was over before the affair? She checked out months before which allowed it to happen. I mean, I shouldn't care at this point and just focus on me. That's the plan. It's super hard on weekends and evenings since we cohabitate and coparent. I'm doing my best to consider the marriage as gone. I guess I just struggle with where to draw the line since we still live together and have 3 young kids that need our constant attention.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ThePheonix

sarcasmo said:


> She agreed to divorce, but I may only pursue legal separation. Still not sure. Lawyer hasn't called me back yet!
> 
> Btw, we had one more talk and it was horrible. She truly feels we are incompatible. I can't be the partner she needs and she can't (doesn't want to be) the partner I need. Of course I said I can learn to support her the way she needs (think Love Languages, self improvement, etc), but she doesn't agree. _ She also hates passivity. Something I struggle with and I'm trying to fix. _


Here's the thing Sarc, and I hope it gives you incentive to change. People in general hate passivity, unless they are trying to sell you something. Youre sounding weak my man. You need to break that habit. You're not winning friends and impressing people by taking their sh*t. 
On the "friendship" deal with this chick, and I dead serious, tell her you're not interest in being her buddy and hanging out, but you would be interested in getting together for no strings attached sex a couple of times a month, at least until you're in another serious relationship. Look at a few "amateur" sites of wives and G/F. What you'll start to notice is that most look the same from the neck down and the knees up.


----------



## TRy

sarcasmo said:


> Ok. The 180 stated not to be mad.


 There is no cookie cutter answer that works for eveyone. Your case is special. You have been so passive, you need to get mad and angry.


sarcasmo said:


> Do I even need to expose them, since she insists our marriage was over before the affair?


 All cheaters lie. She is a cheater, she is lying. The big lie of every affair is for the cheater to tell you that the affair had nothing to do with ending the marriage. This allows them to blame shift the reason for the marraige ending back on the cheated upon spouse and their supposed failings.


----------



## sarcasmo

TRy said:


> There is no cookie cutter answer that works for eveyone. Your case is special. You have been so passive, you need to get mad and angry.
> All cheaters lie. She is a cheater, she is lying. The big lie of every affair is for the cheater to tell you that the affair had nothing to do with ending the marriage. This allows them to blame shift the reason for the marraige ending back on the cheated upon spouse and their supposed failings.


All good points. She has shown me little to no respect. I should be mad. Whether I let myself get walked all over it not, she choose to take advantage if me.

One more question regarding exposure. I've been hung up on it seeming vindictive. I dispose vindictive people. For me, it would about saving my family. Fighting for my marriage. Is that still legitimate at this stage or are we too far gone? At this point it would just look like revenge (damn. Stop caring about external opinions. Do it for me!). 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor

sarcasmo said:


> Thanks. I just reread Plan A and didn't realize there was a Carrot and a Stick part to it. I guess I was only doing the Carrot part. I was so afraid to incorporate the exposure. Primarily because I think the affair may have moved to kind of a limbo situation where they both wont move forward until they can both be all-in if you will. Plus, I fear the sh*t storm my wife will obviously rage through. She already has enough pent up anger about the situation.
> 
> So, my questions. I've been doing the 180 for a day or so, and I feel like she just thinks I'm angry at her. Is that to be expected? Does that fade? Plan A calls for exposure, which I'm not comfortable with. Is Plan A a better option or will she think I'm just exposing it out of anger? I would do both, but I see some things that are in contention with each other. Like talking about/not talking about the good points of the marriage and supporting/not supporting the WS's emotional needs.
> 
> Maybe I missed my shot at Plan A and 180 is my only option. Plan B won't work because neither of us want to move out. She agreed to divorce, but I may only pursue legal separation. Still not sure. Lawyer hasn't called me back yet!
> 
> Btw, we had one more talk and it was horrible. She truly feels we are incompatible. I can't be the partner she needs and she can't (doesn't want to be) the partner I need. Of course I said I can learn to support her the way she needs (think Love Languages, self improvement, etc), but she doesn't agree. She also hates passivity. Something I struggle with and I'm trying to fix. She hates who she becomes with me. Not news. Additionally, and I'm summarizing, I think the only reason she hasn't divorced me is because in so attached to her. As a Nice Guy, I have up my entire support system for her and alienated my family. I have no supports outside of her. I think it was too hard for her to leave me. Maybe she rationalized the pain of an affair as easier then the pain of divorce. I don't know. My words, not hers.
> 
> Anyway, this may or may not be fog talk, but I heard a lot of this before the affair. I have no idea. I'm implementing the 180 for me as a way to detach from her. I do want to give my marriage a chance which is why I was asking about Plan A. Thanks again everyone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Marriage Builders will put the Nice Guy into he11 every time. Stay away from MB. Really. Plan A will chew you up and spit you out. TAM and NMMNG for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Telling the truth isn't vindictive.

Helping hide the affair is helping your enemy.

Why would you help your enemy?


----------



## warlock07

The OM is married, right ?


----------



## Gabriel

Chapparal and Shaggy are really on the money here (no surprise, I almost always am in line with Chap). Forget the technicalities of the 180. You are getting too hung up on all the rules and regulations.

What you need to do is have your own version of the 180, which should be:

1) stay strong and confident around her
2) only talk to her when absolutely necessary, no emotional stuff, just business and surface banter. This doesn't mean cold per se, but stay on the surface, don't get soft and weak and emotional. 
3) Do not accept her physical advances. The "Please dont. You can do that with your boyfriend" is a perfect response.
4) Be busy - hit the gym, dress nice, care about your appearance. Make plans with others.

That's really all you need to do. No need to make it complicated.

One thing though, is most important.......

Do NOT assume any of this will get your wife back. Do this for you only. Assume you are priming yourself for the next relationship. The result may be that your wife will want you again and dump the OM. But DON'T wait for that, DON'T secretly hope for it. Just work #1-4 and get ready to move on. As you stick with #1-4 for awhile, you may realize you don't even want your W back.


----------



## sarcasmo

Thor said:


> Marriage Builders will put the Nice Guy into he11 every time. Stay away from MB. Really. Plan A will chew you up and spit you out. TAM and NMMNG for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks brother! No more MB. Wasn't made for the passive Nice Guy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThePheonix

sarcasmo said:


> Wasn't made for the passive Nice Guy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now you're talking Sarc. Like Glen Campbell's lyrics, "And nice guys get washed away like the snow and the rain".


----------



## Chaparral

Another good line is" you fired me, why are you still here?"

"Everyone knows the cheater is the one that's supposed to leave. Bye."


----------



## SadandAngry

So you now know what your action plan includes, correct?

Get DIVORCE papers in her hands ASAP, cut the thought of separation out as an option.

Go to the hardware store now, buy an external lockstep. Collect all of her stuff from your bedroom and put the lock on the door. You can't force her out of the house, but you can at least take your own room and bed for yourself.

Go through all the accounts you have and separate them. Bank, cell, utilities, what ever. Give her notice that you expect her to pay half the mortgage, utilities and food. Keep a record and receipts for what you pay for. Cancel any joint credit cards.

You are detaching from her, and she gets a good dose of reality as well.

Oh I forgot, find the omw and tell her all that you know. Nothing you've been told about her can be trusted, it came via lying, cheating, selfish individuals.


----------



## 3putt

Thor said:


> Marriage Builders will put the Nice Guy into he11 every time. Stay away from MB. Really. Plan A will chew you up and spit you out. TAM and NMMNG for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then you don't understand the concepts of MB, Dr. Harley and Plan A. Plan A consists of two components: the carrot and the stick. The stick part is not nice guy at all. It's exactly what we advise people to do here to bust up an affair. I would imagine that a lot of what is advised here is based on the MB concepts from what I have seen and read.

I get a little mystified when I read some of these things about the MB concepts. It's almost like people are assuming the carrot part of the plan is the most important part. It is when it's time, but that comes after the properly applied and executed stick....and that's murdering the affair.

If folks are going to criticize the MB methods, then let's learn them and criticize them as a whole beforehand. It would seem that too many folks are hellbent on crucifying a program based on only half of said program or certain "parts" of one of the books. In other words, quote mining for an arguing point. That's not fair to people who truly want to save their marriages, and are willing to go to all lengths to do so.

MB doesn't have a 95% success rate for restoring busted marriages due to infidelity by accident.

BTW, that 95% rate happens when all the methods are applied, the affair is busted, and finally both parties are on board with recovery. Just to make sure I'm not misconstrued here.

Not trying to start a war here on anything, just pointing out what I think to be obvious to anyone who has truly studied the methods, and I mean ALL the methods.

As an aside, there are many things I don't agree with about the message boards there, and the biggest would be if it's not MB endorsed, then it must be crap. I don't believe that. I'm a big fan of MMSLP, NMMNG, NJF, etc. The board (or the mods at least) are very militant about not having anything other than Dr. Harley's concepts used. That's fine. It's their board. That's also why I choose not to post there.

But I do believe in the program as a whole as I have seen it save some pretty sh!tty situations firsthand. 

Again, not posting this to start a war as I have little time to fight one tonight. Just pointing out the other side of things the way I see it.


----------



## Acabado

3putt said:


> MB doesn't have a 95% success rate for restoring busted marriages due to infidelity by accident.


Who validate this?


----------



## 3putt

Acabado said:


> Who validate this?


Did you read this part?



> BTW, that 95% rate happens when all the methods are applied, the affair is busted, and finally both parties are on board with recovery. Just to make sure I'm not misconstrued here.


I'm sorry, I can't cite a source. I'll look when I have time, but this isn't the kind of thing that has extensive surveys done on them. Not at least as MB is concerned anyway.

But, like I said, when all the grunt work is done, it's very successful. It's actually been quoted at a 99% success rate all over MB who have gone through this, but I wasn't going to throw that number out. Hell, let's assume it's only 75% successful, just for chuckles. Wouldn't that be worth the effort to save your marriage and family if that is what you truly desire?

Look, my point isn't about numbers. It about bashing a program consistently proven to build healthy (and affair proof) marriages and recover marriages due to infidelity without a full understanding of the program.

That's by biggest point.


----------



## sarcasmo

Ok, so I'm even more confused now. The plan is to stick with the 180, but I'm gaining more insight into the breakdown of my marriage. My wife is emotionally needey. More so than the average person. I'm emotionally unavailable. More so than the average person. There's a pattern of her going outside our marriage for emotional support. I won't go into too much detail, but there have been at least 2 other emotional connections outside the marriage (both female, but one physical). And I have let it happen. Didn't stand up and say, I'm your husband. I'm consistently letting her down as a partner. Not that she is without blame. She expects me to intuitively know how to support her. She doesn't know how to explain what she needs. Leaves me at a loss as I am someone that follows directions very well, but sometimes I have problems forming my own thoughts (yes, this is probably a symptom of my NG issues). She claims to be telling me but I must be very dense. 

With all that said, I feel like while this affair is probably worse than I know, I do know that our marriage is a mess. The affair is just a symptom of a bigger problem. Is treating the symptom really going to cure the underlying disease? No. And I think that's where she is at mentally. Done trying. Sees our marriage as a failure. 

Of course, here I sit, refusing to throw in the towel. To dumb to see that the game is over. Sure, I'm doing the 180 for me. I need to detach. Disconnect the emotional hose if I have any hope of finding myself. But I refuse to waive the white flag. My ultimatum didn't get the intended result. I'm ok with that, but I still feel like I have a chance. Thing is, I don't know what that is. 

So, the 180 is great for me, but makes her feel like she's been emotionally abandoned by me again. Blowing up the affair with exposure, just pisses her off and pushes her even closer to divorce because to her, the marriage is lost and the affair wasn't the problem. Perhaps it's fog talk, but we have been here before. I have not been there for her emotionally for a long time. If ever. 

Really just rambling at this point. I'm not sure if I have actually asked a question yet. I guess I just want to know what plan would give me the best chance if success. Even if my chances are 0.001%. Which is better for my situation? A broken down marriage where the wife feels neglected and doesn't think the husband can ever meet her huge emotional needs. 

FYI, not sure this matters, but she has been a wreck today. I haven't held strong to the 180 allowing emotional and marriage talk to happen, but it felt productive so I participated. She admitted she was stupid to think we could still be friends. She was even crying when I left the house tonight for me time. I'm horrible at reading people, but I think she's just sad that its over. I'd like to think its remorse or second guessing, but my gut says its just pain about how our marriage has failed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

The 180 isn't for winning her back. The 180 is about weaning you off the relationship.


----------



## Entropy3000

Thor said:


> Marriage Builders will put the Nice Guy into he11 every time. Stay away from MB. Really. Plan A will chew you up and spit you out. TAM and NMMNG for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


True that. Even Harley is not a fan of Plan A. It is not something he would do personally.


----------



## Entropy3000

Right. The 180 is for when you have thrown in the towel and are moving on. If you want to save a marriage you have to kill the affair and let the WS know that you do not accept this in your marriage. So if they do not immediately stop the affair then you file. You do not give them time to think it over. You do not allow any fond farewells.


----------



## Entropy3000

3putt said:


> Then you don't understand the concepts of MB, Dr. Harley and Plan A. Plan A consists of two components: the carrot and the stick. The stick part is not nice guy at all. It's exactly what we advise people to do here to bust up an affair. I would imagine that a lot of what is advised here is based on the MB concepts from what I have seen and read.
> 
> I get a little mystified when I read some of these things about the MB concepts. It's almost like people are assuming the carrot part of the plan is the most important part. It is when it's time, but that comes after the properly applied and executed stick....and that's murdering the affair.
> 
> If folks are going to criticize the MB methods, then let's learn them and criticize them as a whole beforehand. It would seem that too many folks are hellbent on crucifying a program based on only half of said program or certain "parts" of one of the books. In other words, quote mining for an arguing point. That's not fair to people who truly want to save their marriages, and are willing to go to all lengths to do so.
> 
> MB doesn't have a 95% success rate for restoring busted marriages due to infidelity by accident.
> 
> BTW, that 95% rate happens when all the methods are applied, the affair is busted, and finally both parties are on board with recovery. Just to make sure I'm not misconstrued here.
> 
> Not trying to start a war here on anything, just pointing out what I think to be obvious to anyone who has truly studied the methods, and I mean ALL the methods.
> 
> As an aside, there are many things I don't agree with about the message boards there, and the biggest would be if it's not MB endorsed, then it must be crap. I don't believe that. I'm a big fan of MMSLP, NMMNG, NJF, etc. The board (or the mods at least) are very militant about not having anything other than Dr. Harley's concepts used. That's fine. It's their board. That's also why I choose not to post there.
> 
> But I do believe in the program as a whole as I have seen it save some pretty sh!tty situations firsthand.
> 
> Again, not posting this to start a war as I have little time to fight one tonight. Just pointing out the other side of things the way I see it.


I am absolutely pro Dr. Harley. The problem is not with him. The problem is with the MB forum itself. I understand Plan A and Plan B. But Harley points out that Plan A can very quickly become humiliating for the BS. Plan A is for when there is no love in the bank. The idea is to fill the tank and then take it away during a Plan B. My take on this is that one needs to engage affairs very early. I am a believer in meeting needs aka His Needs Her Needs. I do not believe in a BS putting up with any humiliation. Yes I am stating my opinion. But my main point is that one can be very pro Harley and not agree with the advice that the MB forum gives.

MB does not have a 95% success rate unless one defines success in some peculiar way. But I will just say if one partner has to endure humiliation then it is not a success.


----------



## SadandAngry

sarcasmo said:


> Ok, so I'm even more confused now. The plan is to stick with the 180, but I'm gaining more insight into the breakdown of my marriage. My wife is emotionally needey. More so than the average person. I'm emotionally unavailable. More so than the average person. There's a pattern of her going outside our marriage for emotional support. I won't go into too much detail, but there have been at least 2 other emotional connections outside the marriage (both female, but one physical). And I have let it happen. Didn't stand up and say, I'm your husband. I'm consistently letting her down as a partner. Not that she is without blame. She expects me to intuitively know how to support her. She doesn't know how to explain what she needs. Leaves me at a loss as I am someone that follows directions very well, but sometimes I have problems forming my own thoughts (yes, this is probably a symptom of my NG issues). She claims to be telling me but I must be very dense.
> 
> With all that said, I feel like while this affair is probably worse than I know, I do know that our marriage is a mess. The affair is just a symptom of a bigger problem. Is treating the symptom really going to cure the underlying disease? No. And I think that's where she is at mentally. Done trying. Sees our marriage as a failure.
> 
> Of course, here I sit, refusing to throw in the towel. To dumb to see that the game is over. Sure, I'm doing the 180 for me. I need to detach. Disconnect the emotional hose if I have any hope of finding myself. But I refuse to waive the white flag. My ultimatum didn't get the intended result. I'm ok with that, but I still feel like I have a chance. Thing is, I don't know what that is.
> 
> So, the 180 is great for me, but makes her feel like she's been emotionally abandoned by me again. Blowing up the affair with exposure, just pisses her off and pushes her even closer to divorce because to her, the marriage is lost and the affair wasn't the problem. Perhaps it's fog talk, but we have been here before. I have not been there for her emotionally for a long time. If ever.
> 
> Really just rambling at this point. I'm not sure if I have actually asked a question yet. I guess I just want to know what plan would give me the best chance if success. Even if my chances are 0.001%. Which is better for my situation? A broken down marriage where the wife feels neglected and doesn't think the husband can ever meet her huge emotional needs.
> 
> FYI, not sure this matters, but she has been a wreck today. I haven't held strong to the 180 allowing emotional and marriage talk to happen, but it felt productive so I participated. She admitted she was stupid to think we could still be friends. She was even crying when I left the house tonight for me time. I'm horrible at reading people, but I think she's just sad that its over. I'd like to think its remorse or second guessing, but my gut says its just pain about how our marriage has failed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You want a sliver of a chance? Kill the affair. Talk to omw, expose to friends and family. Take away the fantasy.

Stop being passive. Stop being weak. Stop sharing your wife. Stop taking her rubbing it in your face. Take your space, and your dignity.

Only if she ends the affair do you talk about anything. It is up to her to choose the marriage now, you cannot work on it alone, so stop trying to. She made her choice, make it public.


----------



## lordmayhem

Entropy3000 said:


> I am absolutely pro Dr. Harley. The problem is not with him. The problem is with the MB forum itself. I understand Plan A and Plan B. But Harley points out that Plan A can very quickly become humiliating for the BS. Plan A is for when there is no love in the bank. The idea is to fill the tank and then take it away during a Plan B. My take on this is that one needs to engage affairs very early. I am a believer in meeting needs aka His Needs Her Needs. I do not believe in a BS putting up with any humiliation. Yes I am stating my opinion. But my main point is that one can be very pro Harley and not agree with the advice that the MB forum gives.
> 
> MB does not have a 95% success rate unless one defines success in some peculiar way. But I will just say of one partner has to endure humiliation then it is not a success.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

Most of the threads I read over there are long threads where the BS stays in limbo and tries to nice the WS out of their affair (Plan A: competing with the OM/OW, etc). They usually end up going to Plan B anyway.


----------



## TRy

sarcasmo said:


> With all that said, I feel like while this affair is probably worse than I know, I do know that our marriage is a mess. The affair is just a symptom of a bigger problem. Is treating the symptom really going to cure the underlying disease? No. And I think that's where she is at mentally. Done trying. Sees our marriage as a failure.


 Here is your problem. You are too nice a guy. There I said it. But you knew that already did you not?

As a nice guy you are too ready to accept blame for being a normal imperfect human. No one is perfect. Not me, not you, and not your wife. Yet cheaters will hold you to a standard of perfection that they do not hold themselves to. They do this knowing that everyone will fail such a standard, because they want their spouse to fail so that they can blame shift the cause of their affair back on to their cheated upon spouse. The truth is your wife has many failing that also contributed to the issues in the marraige. For one she does not communicate her needs very well and expects you to mind read; this is common for cheaters BTW. If you take nothing else from what I have said, know that you and your wife are both 50%-50% responsible for the issues of your marraige, but the cheater is always 100% responsible for their cheating. Do not let her sell you on thinking otherwise. Cheating never fixes problems in a marriage, she should have used all the energy that she used to cheat, to work on the married with you.

I do not care if you use the 180 or not. That will not save your marriage, as it is only for you. But if you want a shot at saving the marriage, you best shot is to file for divorce (and mean it), to expose the affair, and then to calmly go about your life laying out a future without her. You must just let her go and work on yourself and your future. If she wants to save the marraige, it is up to her to tell you and to do the work. I am not saying that doing this will save your marriage. I am just saying that this gives you the best odds, and if it does not save your marriage, at least it will save your self respect if your marriage does end; and self respect is a soul saver.


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## sarcasmo

Really tough words to hear. Pretty much I know my marriage is over. So do I want to try one last ditch effort that may piss my STBXW off more or go away quietly like the passive fool I have been our whole relationship? I'll start gathering the exposure list. I may not go through with it, but at least I'll have done the research. Thanks everyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor

3putt said:


> Then you don't understand the concepts of MB, Dr. Harley and Plan A. Plan A consists of two components: the carrot and the stick. The stick part is not nice guy at all. It's exactly what we advise people to do here to bust up an affair. I would imagine that a lot of what is advised here is based on the MB concepts from what I have seen and read.


No, I would say you do not understand Mr. Nice Guy. I am referring to the book by Dr. R. Glover, "No More Mr. Nice Guy". Sarcasmo is a Nice Guy. (I am a recovering NG, having read the book and done the Breaking Free Exercises about 7 years ago).

Plan A is not by itself wrong, though in many situations going straight to Plan B or directly to divorce may make sense.

The problem is the Nice Guy is a doormat. And most especially the forums on marriagebuilders has some regular contributors who have a philosophy different than here. They contend the WS is not in his/her right mind. They are literally not themselves. And they believe the BS has a moral obligation to try to help their WS.

Now toss a NG into the mix with that philosophy. He feels guilt for his WW's affair, and he feels responsible to ease the WW back into the marriage. He thinks he should be Nicer, more helpful, more caring in order to prove to her his love.

The NG is not willing to be hard, nor is he willing to move swiftly from Plan A to Plan B.


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## Thor

3putt said:


> MB doesn't have a 95% success rate for restoring busted marriages due to infidelity by accident.
> 
> BTW, that 95% rate happens when all the methods are applied, the affair is busted, and finally both parties are on board with recovery. Just to make sure I'm not misconstrued here.


What is "infidelity by accident"?

Also, not to bash MB methods, but I bet many approaches have a very good success rate when those conditions are met, the affair is busted and both spouses are on board with recovery.

I can see how for some dysfunctional relationships the MB method can be excellent. Just look at the OP on this thread though and you'll see how he feels responsible for easing his wife's emotional distress, and how he feels he doesn't want her to see him negatively. These are classic Nice Guy thought processes. OP ignores the tough love aspects of Plan A, and he goes straight to the doormat supplication. Where he will likely flounder for a long time. His wife will continue her affair undeterred, until at some point she divorces him.


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## Thor

sarcasmo said:


> Really tough words to hear. Pretty much I know my marriage is over. So do I want to try one last ditch effort that may piss my STBXW off more or go away quietly like the passive fool I have been our whole relationship? I'll start gathering the exposure list. I may not go through with it, but at least I'll have done the research. Thanks everyone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you watch old movies? Do you know who John Wayne was? Or a more modern reference might be Sean Connery. Yeah I'm showing my age and also the fact I don't watch tv.

Anyhow, picture in your mind how one of these confident masculine men would deal with the situation. Not as an azzhole or an abusive jerk, but they would deal with it in a definite and strong way. John Wayne would know he deserved to be respected by his wife and he would not put up with her idiocy for a moment. He would not coddle her. He would clearly communicate to her his position.

Would John Wayne worry about pissing off his wife by stating his position, or would he know he was doing the right thing and not worry about her reaction?

To put it another way, when you discipline one of your children you know they are not going to be happy in the moment but you know that in the long run they will be a happier and better person.


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## mg2977

If you want any chance to save your marriage, you need to expose and at this point that may not end her A, so you may then have to file for D. But just because you expose and file for D, doesn't mean the she may not come around and try to save the marriage later. D doesn't happen overnight. 

Oh and yes she will be mad you exposed but do not worry about it. A marriage can survive many things but it will not survive an active A. So be strong, confident and not too emotional when exposing. She will get angry at you, but do not listen to anything she says at that point. She may say she was going to try to work on the marriage, but because you exposed she's done etc etc. She will tell you the exposure did not help your efforts to stay married. But do not listen or engage with her about this and do not try to rationalize with her (it will not work). 

Good luck.


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## Entropy3000

The WS is in an addiction. They are not in their right minds. HOWEVER, you do not reach them by nicing them out of the affair. That is called enablement. At best that leads to cake eating. No one should be ok with humiliation. It is flat wrong. Encouraging someone to be humkiated is abusive IMO. It is taking advantage of a person in a very vulnerable state and using their fear of losing the WS to have them destroy their own integrity. This is the oppostie of what is going to be good for them or their marriage. Humliation is NOT attractive.

Being firm and having boundaries IS attractive. Destroy affairs or potential affairs when they are relatively small. When your brakes start to sqeak, get them fixed right away. Do not wait for the rotors to be damaged. That os much hared to and expensive to fix. Waiting longer makes them unsalvageable. That is even more expense. But the biggest issue is that there is real danger in this condition. Such is marriage. Fix the problems when they are small. 

A 180 IS indeed for oneself. If one is doing it to save their marriage, they are just pouting. One should expose the affair and file and then do the 180 if the WS does not respond. That is an action plan. That has a chance of not only savin a marriage BUT having two viable human beings left in it. A marriage with a broken person in it is not a marriage.


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## The bishop

As a cheater I can not emphasize enough..... Do not be nice.... There isn't one thing the AP's are doing that warrants being nice and caring. Literally, I hate to say this but whiny nice guys who beg and cry get played even harder and made fun of by their WS and their AP along the way. Horrible yes.... But the truth. 

The more they can control you they will.... Their relationship depends on you allowing it to continue in fantasy land. 

Cheaters are liars who will play the WS as long as they ca get away with it.

To the OP.... This is happening to you, stop caring about her feelings and start controlling yours.

Not that you are going to listen since you haven't yet.


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## carpenoctem

The bishop said:


> As a cheater I can not emphasize enough..... Do not be nice.... There isn't one thing the AP's are doing that warrants being nice and caring. Literally, I hate to say this but whiny nice guys who beg and cry get played even harder and made fun of by their WS and their AP along the way. Horrible yes.... But the truth.
> 
> The more they can control you they will.... Their relationship depends on you allowing it to continue in fantasy land.
> 
> Cheaters are liars who will play the WS as long as they ca get away with it.
> 
> To the OP.... This is happening to you, stop caring about her feelings and start controlling yours.
> 
> Not that you are going to listen since you haven't yet.




Mr Bhishop:

A special thanks to you, for stating these factors despite being a (former?) WS.

Carpe Diem!


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## sarcasmo

The bishop said:


> As a cheater I can not emphasize enough..... Do not be nice.... There isn't one thing the AP's are doing that warrants being nice and caring. Literally, I hate to say this but whiny nice guys who beg and cry get played even harder and made fun of by their WS and their AP along the way. Horrible yes.... But the truth.
> 
> The more they can control you they will.... Their relationship depends on you allowing it to continue in fantasy land.
> 
> Cheaters are liars who will play the WS as long as they ca get away with it.
> 
> To the OP.... This is happening to you, stop caring about her feelings and start controlling yours.
> 
> Not that you are going to listen since you haven't yet.


Thanks. I appreciate hearing a perspective from the other side. I assume all cheater say the same thing? The marriage is unrepairable? I truly believe my wife feels this way, but I can't let go. I'm doing the 180 for my sanity, but deep down I still want to fight for my marriage. I know I have been going about it all wrong from the beginning. To afraid to take everyone's good advice. As a Nice Guy, I have lived my whole life in fear. Paralized by my own over-analysis. It's not a good way to go about life.

Anyway, what do I have to lose by exposing them? My marriage is already lost. Divorce is moving forward. I guess this time my fear is that there is a sliver of hope she wants to reconcile somewhere down the line and exposure just erases any hope of that. I'm so torn as to what to do. I hear what everyone is saying, I'm just paralyzed. I have been the whole time. I've had several opportunities to deal with this. It has gone on 6 months now. I even had opportunities before it happened. I have to stop playing it safe, because that has only made it worse. I guess I feel like my only chance was to expose sooner and it's too late; move on.

Like I said, I'm gathering the necessary information for an exposure flood. Phone numbers, emails, etc. Will probably take a week or so, but that will give me time to muster up the courage to just do it. Do I write a letter explaining what's happening or just make it simple?

Sounds like I should have divorce papers ready as well. Overwhelmed by everything. I know I can research this, but do they take long to prepare? Do I need a lawyer (really can't afford one and would prefer mediation)?


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## snap

You don't need to expose to everyone you know. Just a few friends and relatives. It'll spread like forest fire.


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## BobSimmons

Thing is in life if you've tried something and it doesn't work, then you try something else.

What you fear, or what you are afraid of is irrelevant. We are all afraid of getting injured but it doesnt stop us from playing sport or going to work where there's a high probability that if we go into the outside world instead of sitting in one spot at home it can happen.

Fear and negative thoughts of your actions towards her affecting any chance of R are irrelevant. It doesn't matter if you want to fight for your marriage because in the end it's not about what you want, it's about her. You didn't matter when she had the affair, you dont matter when she's preparing and fantazing about with OM.

Whatever you've been doing has not been working because you're bending over backwards for someone who's already detached and sailed. The ship has sailed and you're waiting on the beach for it to come back.

People dont advise exposure because they want to see the wayward get their comeuppance, they do it so the wayward can be brought back into the real world and out of their cocooned fantasy world where they ride off into the sunset and live happily ever after. She's been selfish and looked after no1, now it's time for you to do the same. She cant love you if you dont love or respect yourself.

Pity and fear should be eliminated from your life. Respect yourself, maybe then she'll respect you.


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## sarcasmo

snap said:


> You don't need to expose to everyone you know. Just a few friends and relatives. It'll spread like forest fire.


I just want to make sure POSOM's family is included. Most of my WS's friends already know (she's their ring leader). I plan on telling her family, select friends, and POSOM's family. I wont tell my family. They already hate my wife due to my passively letting her dictate my relationship with my family. I f*cked that up. No need to give them more reason to hate her.

The problem with my WS is she doesn't put much weight into what other people think. If she doesn't agree, she'd rather not hear it. When her friends didn't agree with her early on and couldn't support her A, she stoped talking to them as much or just avoided the topic. Now that they have all been inspired, it's different, but my WS has a way of only hearing what she wants to hear. Always needs to be validated. Can't stand to be put in her place. I believe it's just immaturity, but I'm no shrink.


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## sarcasmo

Man she is frustrating. Just got off the phone with her. Asking me if I was going to try and make her out to be an unfit mother and attack her in court (inside my brain, "no need honey, you are doing a fine job of that yourself"...out until 3 am last night...6 am Friday night). Of course I said no. I come from a divorced family and it was a nightmare. I want this to be quick and amicable for my kids. I don't want them to see us constantly fighting. It was hell.

She talks about mutual respect we have and I stop her, reminding her she has no respect for me (granted, I don't deserve it acting like a wuss). So she turns it around on me and says all those years I was using excuses (procrastination) and ignoring her pleas to get help for myself, to be there for her, that I was disrespecting her. She is so convinced the pain she experience through marriage is as great as the pain I'm experiencing now. While I don't disagree, I don't know the pain she was experiencing, I wont let her blame shift like this. Drives me crazy, but sitting her at my desk at work, there's only so much I could have said. I almost asked her to call me back on my cell phone so we could get into it, but I just figured at this point, I need to just validate and detach.


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## PieceOfSky

Sarcasmo,

Just read your thread. I'm sorry you are in this place.

Not an expert here, but it seems you are procrastinating with the two things folks here are urging you to do: expose and file.

Is it because you are undecided whether exposure and filing helps your chances? Or, is it because, secretly, you know it will help your chances - and deep down you really just want the marriage to fail at this point; after all, any thing that gives you a chance of R must be, deep down, intimidating, because it might just prolong your agony.


All,

The WS's friends sound like unhelpful candidates for exposure. What about WS's friends spouses? Not suggesting. Just wondering.


Sarcasmo,

As a very-likely nice guy myself, I'm hopeful that for me, no matter what happens as I apply what I'm learning from the book, the future is going to be better -- with or without my wife. I hope you can feel a little bit if hope like that too.


Take care of yourself.


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## PieceOfSky

The sooner you file (in my locale at least), the sooner you get a provisional hearing where the judge dictates who moves out. Either way, that seems like a good hearing to have sooner than later. It must be h$ll having to live in the same house. AND staying out until 3:00 or 6:00 a.m.?!!!!!! That's just rubbing it in your face, I'm sorry to say.


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## sarcasmo

PieceOfSky said:


> Sarcasmo,
> 
> Just read your thread. I'm sorry you are in this place.
> 
> Not an expert here, but it seems you are procrastinating with the two things folks here are urging you to do: expose and file.
> 
> Is it because you are undecided whether exposure and filing helps your chances? Or, is it because, secretly, you know it will help your chances - and deep down you really just want the marriage to fail at this point; after all, any thing that gives you a chance of R must be, deep down, intimidating, because it might just prolong your agony.
> 
> 
> All,
> 
> The WS's friends sound like unhelpful candidates for exposure. What about WS's friends spouses? Not suggesting. Just wondering.
> 
> 
> Sarcasmo,
> 
> As a very-likely nice guy myself, I'm hopeful that for me, no matter what happens as I apply what I'm learning from the book, the future is going to be better -- with or without my wife. I hope you can feel a little bit if hope like that too.
> 
> 
> Take care of yourself.


Thanks, my NG brother. You are dead on. Her and I both fear reconcilliation. I fear that I will not be enough emotional support for her and I should just move on to a "normal" person. Someone who appreciates the way I work (the irony is during this process, I have awakened emotionally. I now know empathy and validation. I am a whole new person emotionally). So yes, somewhere in the back of my mind I do fear reconcilliation and she does too. But most of my inaction is based in fear. Fear of her reactions. I live my life in fear. To the point where I don't even know what I want anymore. This is what brought me to the NG book. My overall indifference towards life.

I think I have stated this before, but she doesn't want to go back to being the monster she is with me. I get that. She is afraid. I think somewhere in her heart or mind she does want "us" to work, but she is done trying because it hurts too much. [Nice Guy talk]But I do feel I can help her. We have invested enough time and effort into this marriage and if we truly communicate and I man-up that we will be OK. I feel that she will just repeat this behaviour with the next sad sack. I fear for her future and the well being of my children.[/end Nice Guy talk] 

But maybe she will be OK with out me and we really are incompatible. Thing is, neither of us knows the answer. I was hoping marriage counseling would help us either fix this or end this. In an indirect way, our first round of MC did just that. She checked out when I didn't improve. I was still passive and didn't grab life by the b*lls. 

An example she likes to bring up is that when trying to motivate me to seek IC, the MC said, "If I put a $100 dollar bill on the table and say it's yours if you schedule a session, will you do it?" I was stupid and honest. I said I don't know. I want to, but I don't trust myself to do it. What I should have said was h*ll yes, give me the damn phone and $100 and I'll do it right here in the middle of our frigging session! This is how I feel now and it's how I've been nehaving more often. Something comes up, I take care of it right away. No more procrastinating. 

With all that said, I don't care. I want to fight for my wife. I'm not ready to give up. She needs to choose to overcome her fears, like I am. We have reversed roles. She was confident and assertive, but she is just passive these days. She would have dragged this on forever.


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## northland

She's already looking ahead to the divorce and the court battle, you're still trying to find ways to win her back.

She's several steps ahead of you and the gap is getting larger not smaller.


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## sarcasmo

PieceOfSky said:


> The sooner you file (in my locale at least), the sooner you get a provisional hearing where the judge dictates who moves out. Either way, that seems like a good hearing to have sooner than later. It must be h$ll having to live in the same house. AND staying out until 3:00 or 6:00 a.m.?!!!!!! That's just rubbing it in your face, I'm sorry to say.


Thanks! As much as I pretend to not care, I really do. It's f'd up. I feel like accepting it has made her just do it more. Now that we are on the way to D, she feels more free to pursue him. WTF?

I plan on getting to the court house on Wednesday. We were going to file together through a mediator. Would that achieve the same thing? Provisional hearing?


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## PieceOfSky

I get the feeling you are, similarly to me, prone to feeling guilt about anger that may be brewing inside of you. At the risk of painting myself goofy, I'll share sometimes this help me feel more comfortable with it: (video with sound, but PG I'd guess)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGiX5tbLKiY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNxoLJy3m3s

In the right mood, I've heard this can be amusing to watch. For me, it always been a slight breath of fresh air.


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## PieceOfSky

sarcasmo said:


> Thanks! As much as I pretend to not care, I really do. It's f'd up. I feel like accepting it has made her just do it more. Now that we are on the way to D, she feels more free to pursue him. WTF?
> 
> I plan on getting to the court house on Wednesday. We were going to file together through a mediator. Would that achieve the same thing? Provisional hearing?


I may not have the right word - provisional. My impression is it is not a function of how you file, just that you file. My friend just found out around here it takes 2 - 4 weeks.

Consider having a free consultation with a divorce lawyer. My friend just did, and got some good info without any obligation to file through lawyer. Or, ask to buy 1 hours worth of advice. My impression is they are business people and are willing to offer a little time to see if there might be an opportunity to add value.


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## PieceOfSky

(Darn iPhone.)


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## PieceOfSky

IC is a way to follow through on a promise to yourself and your future lover, as well as your beautiful and deserving kids, that it is never going to be this way again.

This is true whether your future lover is your current wife (reborn from the ashes of these recent failures, rebuilt through intentional efforts of her own), or someone else you've yet to dream exists and you deserve.


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## PieceOfSky

Not been through D.

Seems fair and useful to document somehow her late nights out while living in home with the kids.

Not sure court will care, if it comes to that, but gather data while you can. Many have lied about spouse to manipulate outcome of custody hearings. Don't allow you and your kids to be victims of that.

Ask a lawyer.


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## JCD

Sir, you are a Time Waster.

You SAY you want that .0001% shot to fix things. YOU are out of ideas.

Are you doing the things suggested? At a glacial pace, whining, overthinking and constantly second guessing yourself.

So I am not wasting a lot of time giving advice to a person who clearly is not TAKING advice.

Do not do anything with her

Do not talk on the phone to her. Text only. If it can't be said in 5 lines, it's too much information.

Expose to everyone and ask all your relatives NOT to watch the kids for her...but be ready to watch the kids for YOU. Give them the reason.

Move one of you out of the bedroom and put a lock on the door. I personally think you should move out, but i'm not a lawyer.

If she calls screaming at you, you scream right back! How DARE she tell you you aren't worth being with? Now she doesn't get you. The world is a very cold and lonely place for a woman with kids. Remind her of that fact. 

DEFINITELY tell the OMW. NOW. RIGHT THE **** NOW. If she is the ONLY person you have a number for, call her this minute.

WHY? Because her lawyer will rake him over the coals for what he is doing...so at the very least, they will have to take a hiatus. Room for her to NOT have him and MISS you. You can't crawl into her life if he's already there.

You won't do this. I already know you won't. But I feel better by yelling at you, and that's the important thing.


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## sarcasmo

JCD said:


> Sir, you are a Time Waster.
> 
> You SAY you want that .0001% shot to fix things. YOU are out of ideas.
> 
> Are you doing the things suggested? At a glacial pace, whining, overthinking and constantly second guessing yourself.
> 
> So I am not wasting a lot of time giving advice to a person who clearly is not TAKING advice.


You sir, are correct. This is my MO. Procrastination and analysis paralysis. Creeps into every facet of my life. Please allow me to apologize. It's not that I don't appreciate the advice or even disagree with it. As you said, I'm just overtrinking and to date, it has only hurt my marriage's chances of success. If there ever was a chance.

This is why I'm trying to fix myself with th NG program. You are reacting the same way my wife has for 8 1/2 years.


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## sarcasmo

I know you all think the marriage is gone, but I just had a stroke of genius. Well, at least I think it is. I want to run it by you all and the NG folks as well. So far, the consensus over there is move on with your life with dignity. 

I see this as an opportinuty to 1) get my b*lls back, and 2) make one last ditch effort to save my marriage. Worst case scenario, I get on with my life knowing I have tried EVERYTHING. I didn't do it right or swiftly, but I did try.

As I may have mentioned, they play volleyball Tuesday nights, then have some nice QT together afterwards (how cute). Here is my plan. I'm drafting the exposure letter now. One for her family and friends; one for his. I think tomorrow is too soon for my plan as I still have to find phone numbers, emails, and facebook pages, plus I need to get the divorce papers in order, but here is my plan:

While they are at volleyball, email the exposure letters, call relatives without email, and post to Facebook. 
Confront them at volleyball. Expose them in front of everyone. Not sure if I'll need a megaphone, but I'll wing it. 
More than likely this leads to confrontation with OM (and WS). I assume I'll get hit by more than one of them, but that's OK. I'll take my lumps and get the numbers of some witnesses. 
Have the D papers served or at the very least, expedite the mediation process. 
Let the courts tell us who moves out and how much money I have to give her.
What do you think? B*lls back. Confrontation out of the way. Plus I have thouroughly exposed them. Now move on with the D.


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## Almostrecovered

I don't think putting yourself in a situation that could get potentially violent is a good idea (exposing in person with them there) but other than volleyball, I think the rest is good


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## PieceOfSky

I have to ask: are you really that ballsy yet?

Just seeing them together would suck the air out of my lungs.

You are procrastinating again, IMHO.

Jcd had a good idea. Stop what you are doing. Get up. Leave work. And call the OM-W now.

Chances are those at volleyball already know and some are cool with it. Too much risk you will look desperate and a fool, and OM will finish killing off your future the moment he smugly gets his arms around your wife again.

Just an opinion.


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## sarcasmo

PieceOfSky said:


> I have to ask: are you really that ballsy yet?


Yes. I proposed to my wife in front of 800 strangers. Different situation, for sure, but I don't care about these people. I care about what the POSOM and my WS think about these people.


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## PieceOfSky

I spoke to my WS OM-W a couple of times on the phone. It was helpful.

My WS alleged they were getting a divorce. Turned out, not so much according to OM-W. OM-W turned out to be helpful to my marriage.


----------



## JCD

This isn't an 80's teenage Hollywood sitcom.


----------



## MovingAhead

Sarcasmo,

Brother, I am sorry you are here. I know what it is like and I really understand your pain. You are doing things that are dooming your marriage to absolute ruin. I did some of them too.

First, you are procrastinating and acting weak. That is what women really find attractive. You want to go to the volleyball game to get your butt kicked? If you go it should be because you will be kicking someone else's butt.

Believe me, I have had some stare down encounters with the OM for my EX. I was never aggressive but I was itching for them to start something... They aren't men to sneak around your back. I would have beaten the living hell out of them. I never did because of legal issues and because they turned out to do me a HUGE favor! They took that POS-EX of mine away. I got exposed to what a POS she is and I have been able to get my life together and really get my kids on a much better track.

Confronting them at a VB game reeks of desparation and you will not do well there... The courts think oh my, these PARENTS are CRAP! What can we do for the kiddies.

When I went through my personal hell a year and a half ago, I was desperate to hold onto a turd I wouldn't even step in. Stand up and be a man. Hit the protein shakes and hit the gym! 

Why would you be so desperate to hold onto a woman who treats you so poorly. She moved on brother. You are so far behind in this and you don't even know it. It's a done deal.

I did what I needed to do. I got myself mentally and physically strong. I celebrated mother's day with my girlfriend and kids this weekend. I was in the store getting a card and flowers for her. My son helped me and was eager to get her a card. I asked him if he wanted to get a card for his mom and he almost spit on me!

Your wife is being a selfish .... She is screwing the OM and you and the kids out of your happiness. You want to be with that? She could care less about you. It's all about her happiness now and your lack of balls is really being a huge detriment to yourself. Decide to pee standing up and just do it.


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## sarcasmo

Thanks everyone. There may have been a time for this, but it just looks like crazy now. I don't need to fuel her side in the divorce.

On last question before I move on with my life. Any reason I should talk to OM-W at this point? Or his parents? Or my WS's parents and siblings? 

Someone made the comment that if they were the OM's family, they would be pissed if I dragged them into it. Thing I haven't shared is, his family has been calling my wife to help this POS out of his marriage. They have been in contact. They know of her. What they know, I don't know. It's totally f'd up. 

I guess I look at it two ways, 1) they really are friends and she has been open w/them (w/in reason), or 2) they have lied about the extent of their relations. If I expose and it's number 1, I act like an a$$. If it's number 2, there could be some good in the exposure. 

Just curious since a number of you over here still seem to think exposure may be helpful, even after all of my mistakes throughout this ordeal. Seems like the consensus is to pack up the truck and move on, but I just needed to ask that last question.


----------



## lordmayhem

sarcasmo said:


> Thing I haven't shared is, his family has been calling my wife to help this POS out of his marriage. They have been in contact. They know of her. What they know, I don't know. It's totally f'd up.


That would have been helpful to share.

In that case, exposure to the OM's family would do no good since they are scumbags who *enabled* and *facilitated* OM's affair with your STBXW so OM could get out of his marriage with OMW. They must really hate the OMW.

As for OMW, if there's anything or any help you can provide to help her, then that's your choice. You're under no obligation if you have already exposed the affair to her. But if you haven't exposed the affair to her, then you should do the right thing and do it. She may need that information.


----------



## sarcasmo

lordmayhem said:


> That would have been helpful to share.
> 
> In that case, exposure to the OM's family would do no good since they are scumbags who *enabled* and *facilitated* OM's affair with your STBXW so OM could get out of his marriage with OMW. They must really hate the OMW.
> 
> As for OMW, if there's anything or any help you can provide to help her, then that's your choice. You're under no obligation if you have already exposed the affair to her. But if you haven't exposed the affair to her, then you should do the right thing and do it. She may need that information.


I believe my STBXW when she says OMW is crazy. His family wanted him out bad. Pretty much moved him out when he wasn't home. 

I really don't want anything to do with this woman (OMW). While I feel she deserves to know, I don't want to get involved with that kind of crazy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ThePheonix

Sarc, expose, cuss, etc., what every makes you feel good. Do it for you man, no one else and not an attempt to win her back. When you start to feel, "hell she can have the bastard, I'm going to start dating several hot chicks" you will know you have arrived . Women want what they can't have my man. If she comes back, it will be because youre hard to get, hard to control, and don't take her crap. She has to work to keep your interest. My recommendation is to sample some of the available chicks  even if she wants to get back with you. 
Remember guy, the phrase that nice guys hear the most from women is, "lets just be friends". Unless you're a dead ringer for Hugh Jackman, women don't lust after nice guys.


----------



## PieceOfSky

sarcasmo said:


> I believe my STBXW when she says OMW is crazy. His family wanted him out bad. Pretty much moved him out when he wasn't home.
> 
> I really don't want anything to do with this woman (OMW). While I feel she deserves to know, I don't want to get involved with that kind of crazy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know crazy exists. I like to stay away from crazy, too.

If she's too crazy to help you, I wouldn't expose to her.

(Spoken by a guy with little experience here.)


----------



## PieceOfSky

When you say his family has been calling your wife -- who exactly? Sister, brother, mom, dad? Are they all so heartless the would fully enable your marriage to die just to get OM away from crazy? 

I suppose its possible, but, if I had to guess I'd lean towards they have been mislead about your wife's availability. Maybe you could sound them out?


----------



## Chaparral

You've rationalized doing nothing again? I liked outing them at the v ball game. Those folks will never look at them the same and your wife will know you can fight for her.


----------



## sarcasmo

PieceOfSky said:


> When you say his family has been calling your wife -- who exactly? Sister, brother, mom, dad? Are they all so heartless the would fully enable your marriage to die just to get OM away from crazy?
> 
> I suppose its possible, but, if I had to guess I'd lean towards they have been mislead about your wife's availability. Maybe you could sound them out?


Someday I'll have to ask her. They sound like good people. Perhaps the OMW has put POSOM through so much they are looking the other way with regards to my wife. Just happy he found a nice girl to save him from his STBXW. My family loved my wife at first too. Now they don't talk to us much. I take a big part of the blame there. Good luck to them. I guess they can have her. For her sake, I hope it works out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sarcasmo

chapparal said:


> You've rationalized doing nothing again? I liked outing them at the v ball game. Those folks will never look at them the same and your wife will know you can fight for her.


Let me try to put this all to rest. Just got back from my IC appt. Right now, I say forget it. I'm done. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise. She may be dead on with her assertation that I didn't support her enough, but that's not my problem. Who could, really?!? I need to find someone who appreciates me. Not someone who has been trying to change me since day one. I'm out. Called my buddy who's brother is a lawyer just to get some advice regarding my rights. I'm done waiting for our lawyer to call back with the references. I'll find a mediator ASAP.

No more games. No more 180s or Plan A or exposure thoughts. Well 180 is for me, but no more worrying about if I'm doing it right. She can't stay out until 3 am because it affects our children. F my feelings. It's about them. I'm aready logging those events in case the D goes south.

Time to take my life back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## northland

sarcasmo said:


> I believe my STBXW when she says


If you do nothing else, stop believing anything your STBXW says.


----------



## JCD

You don't know what she told them. She may have told them that SHE is with this remorseless Ogre who abbuses her so she knows about bad relationships. That she has no kids. That she's already getting a divorce. All kinds of things that would make her look good.

BAH! You are wasting time again. Anything difficult, you put off. You should directly call HIS mom and say to her "My wife is out with your son till 3 a.m. and is abandoning HER children. I hear YOU encourage this. What kind of a person are you if this is true? My kids are crying at night, waiting for their mother."

Maybe what your wife said is true. But there is a vast difference between thinking "Oh...this woman is very good for my little boy so I don't mind if this soon to be ex wife of someone is sucking him off because it doesn't hurt anyone" vs. "this woman is abandoning HER responsibilities and will do the same to any grandchildren she has for my son."

Plus mom won't look at her perfect little boy if she thinks he went out of his way to be a homewrecker. Right now you are an idea of a person. You make yourself a flesh and blood person with crying kids, and suddenly it's much less theoretical of an exercise.

Come on! Use your super whining powers for good! You've been here complaing for the last few weeks or months. Now is your chance to actually use it EFFECTIVELY.

What exactly do you have to lose? She doesn't want to be with you. And if they are trailer trash, you've lost nothing.


----------



## Shaggy

At least post the OM on cheaterville.com and send the link to your wife and his wife.


----------



## MovingAhead

Sarcasmo,

I know this is hard and your heart feels like it was literally ripped from your body. Don't trust your heart for it will deceive you. Lead your heart.

You have been treated like utter scum by your WW and OM. You sat there and took it all. You haven't done anything to protect yourself. You are going to get screwed in court because honestly it's a lot of he said she said and the judge has no idea who is telling the truth and frankly doesn't care.

Your wife cuckolded you and yet you still take it... Life is not fair. Neither is court. You really need to learn how to be strong. You haven't stood up for yourself once. The OM's family is really nice. They know about my wife and they are just swell friends... THEY HELPED HIM COMMIT ADULTERY WITH YOUR WIFE!!!! Not friends I would want!

You are letting everyone walk all over you and you are afraid to act. Brother pick one thing and take a stand on it. You may take a beating for doing it, but do it because it is the right thing to do! It will help you so much and give you confidence to be stronger!


----------



## SadandAngry

Holy crap, you're worse than disenchanted was!

How much more clearly can you be told that you cannot trust anything that you have been told. Go find omw and speak to her yourself. 

Have you put a lock on your bedroom? Kicked her out of it? Done anything beyond fantasizing about doing something?


----------



## LongWalk

From an old post:



> Well it didn't go as well as planned. I really have no idea where we are at. This is part of my issue. Lack of emotional intelligence if you will. I'm hurt over this person, but really he doesn't even matter. From your point of view he matters. He is POSOM and your wife's loverShe's leaving me because I have no identity. Are you completely invisible?I have no sense if self.Who is writing this? Maybe I've showed up emotionally lately Hope you the emotion is pıssed off, but I left her alone (emotionally) for 8 years. If we are going to work, I need to fix me. I have a lot of issues. I'm a great husband and father.If you don't get your a$$ in gear in moving resolutely to D or R, you are letting your kids down. No doubt, but I have to figure out who I am before we can be together. Maybe if I say it out loud I'll believe it.
> 
> From here the only option is a separation.She wants to impose separation on you Until I prove I'm getting better, there can't be an us.Stop putting everything off That is devastating to me. I don't want this. It's not my choice, but she's done feeling like she has to nag me to take care of important things. She's doesn't want to be that person anymore. I have to prove to her I can make it without her for her to want to make us work again. She's done feeling empty and alone.
> 
> This was never about him. He's complicating things, sure, but its about her and I and us. I've been way too focused on him when I need to get back to me. I don't even know if I'm explaining it right. I think as much as it hurts the only way I can save us is to work on me getting better. I just pray she doesn't do something stupid before we get to the point where we even have a chance to reconcile. While I love her more than anything, I don't know if I could forgive that. Even though we are separated, I still feel like we have to stay faithful. I'm going to have to get over that if this is for real. I just can't even imagine the thought of bring with someone else. I'm still in love.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for your help. I'm sorry if I mislead everyone. I'm obviously confused.


You haven't move far from this old situation.


----------



## sarcasmo

LongWalk said:


> You haven't move far from this old situation.


You are absolutely right. I've allowed myself to believe her backwards talk. She has a svengali hold on me that I need to break ASAP. Deep down I still want this to work and I think that's why I allow myself to fall prey to her words.

Not anymore. Moving on with my life. Looking for healthy supports. Done perseverating on how to "fix" things and win her back. If it happens, it will happen organically over time and then I will be in control of whether I even want her back. After my IC session yesterday, I'm not so sure I even want her back.

Working out, getting back into sports leagues, taking "me time" in the evenings, etc. Of course, none of these outlets help me meet women, but that's OK for now. I'm going to seek out support groups or other common interest based groups to help meet like minded people that I can use as casual supports and diversions through this. Maybe even make a few new friends.

One thing is for sure, I'm not looking to move my attachment from my STBXW to someone else. I will stay at arms length and just casually interact with other "mature" adults. I need to work on my Nice Guy tendancies before I try to enter a new relationship.


----------



## MovingAhead

Sarcasmo,

Please listen to me and I really mean this to be helpful but seriously you are acting like a little baby... I was going to use a different 'b' word but I might get in big trouble.

You are in control of your life. Yes, you might want to meet another woman, but this is NOT the time. You are acting like a little scared puppy dog and rolling over on your back in submission... Your WW thinks you are being pathetic and I'm sure she and the guy she is BANGING are laughing at how weak and pathetic you are.

That would pretty much be enough to get me angry! I had my DDay 1.5 years ago. I was totally messed up. I started going to the gym. I'm only 200lbs but I full squat over 500lbs and bench 300... I just maintain. I took the bad things, the anger, the hurt, the betrayal, the bitterness and I turned them into energy at the gym.

I got myself on solid ground mentally. I wrote down who I wanted to be and I am doing it! 

You are doing the opposite. You are gloomy, you want everyone here to give you a pity party and commiserate with you. Yes, your wife is a WHO**, yes you were given a raw deal...

So what are you going to do about it. Put your damn Cowboy hat on, boots and MAN the F UP! You have been betrayed and violated once and your are going to let it happen again in court! WTF are you doing?

Stop thinking about how you want someone to be with to validate that you don't totally suck as a man! If you don't want to totally suck as a man then get up and get strong! Focus on making yourself better. Take the first step. Force yourself to keep at it and let it become second nature.

My EX traded me out for an old guy... I found a gorgeous girl. First I made sure I was better. I became who I really wanted to be because I did it for me. You cannot be a good father if you don't build a good foundation for yourself and the first thing is to take the first step. 

Seriously stop being a whiny little sissy and get up and take action. Your next post should simply be ONE THING THAT YOU DID TO BETTER YOURSELF AND YOUR SITUATION. Get on it!


----------



## sarcasmo

MovingAhead said:


> Seriously stop being a whiny little sissy and get up and take action. Your next post should simply be ONE THING THAT YOU DID TO BETTER YOURSELF AND YOUR SITUATION. Get on it!


I guess my post came off in a way I didn't intend it. I HAVE been working out since Jan. I HAVE joined the local softball league. I HAVE taken "me time" nights in the past week. I HAVE called two attorneys. I HAVE read NMMNG and I HAVE started my BFE's.

Sorry if it wasn't clear from my post. I'm actual doing rather than talking now. I'm done looking for pity. I was suggesting other avenues I'm also considering. Just wanted to make it clear I will not allow myself to just reattach to someone else until I am healthy. Nothing wrong with finding some friends to commiserate with, right?


----------



## Chaparral

That's all well and good but do realze he may also be after your family, not just your wife.
You are doing nothing to stop the affair. You may lose everything if you don, t get rid of this bum. You want your kids living with him half the time and calling him dad?


----------



## sarcasmo

chapparal said:


> That's all well and good but do realze he may also be after your family, not just your wife.
> You are doing nothing to stop the affair. You may lose everything if you don, t get rid of this bum. You want your kids living with him half the time and calling him dad?


He has 4 kids of his own. Owns his own business. He's not after my family. Just my young (8 years younger than him), attractive, and attentive STBXW.


----------



## Chaparral

Keep telling yourself that. And she just wants to be his mistress. Where will he be when his wife finds out if she kicks him out? In your house with your family.


----------



## Chaparral

You are fooling yourself more than they are. What happens from this point is your responsibility.

Like they say, if you can't run with the big dogs , stay under the porch.


----------



## sarcasmo

chapparal said:


> Keep telling yourself that. And she just wants to be his mistress. Where will he be when his wife finds out if she kicks him out? In your house with your family.


POSOM is divorcing his BS. Already living on his own. I'm not denying they want more than what they have now with each other. Thing is, they have a horrible foundation and it's likely to fail on it's own once they reveal their true selves to each other. I'm willing to let it run it's course as it's not my problem any more. If they make it, so be it. Again, I'm done worrying about my STBXW's life. 

I'm not sure where you are going with your posts. Earlier you were very helpful with the 180 advice. I'm trying to stick to that. 

Are you still suggesting I expose them? Based on the feedback here, you seem to be the only one that thinks I should still expose them. I think that ship has sailed. I had plenty of opportunities to blow the affair up and I blew it. Big time. At this point, I don't think it would have the desired effect. 

Time to move on with my life, stop perseverating over the lost marriage and my WS, and focus on me, the kids, and the D.


----------



## Amplexor

sarcasmo said:


> Thing is, they have a horrible foundation and it's likely to fail on it's own once they reveal their true selves to each other.


95% of relationships between two affair partners fail. But what else should we expect from a relationship that in created in a cesspool of lies and deceit? Move on with your life and let nature take care of the carrion.


----------



## Shaggy

Posom belongs up on cheaterville with the rest of his kind.


----------



## sarcasmo

Shaggy said:


> Posom belongs up on cheaterville with the rest of his kind.


I don't disagree, but I don't want to be the one to potentially ruin his business. It's one thing to humiliate someone, it's another to take his livelihood away. I know I'm probably overexaggerating the effect of posting his name to that site, but I'm not willing to take the chance.


----------



## Acabado

sarcasmo said:


> I don't disagree, but I don't want to be the one to potentially ruin his business. It's one thing to humiliate someone, it's another to take his livelihood away. I know I'm probably overexaggerating the effect of posting his name to that site, but I'm not willing to take the chance.


Who cares about his bussiness? Really?


----------



## Almostrecovered

if his business goes under it will not be from your exposure- IT WILL BE FROM HIS OWN IMMORAL CHOICES


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## lordmayhem

Almostrecovered said:


> if his business goes under it will not be from your exposure- IT WILL BE FROM HIS OWN IMMORAL CHOICES


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


----------



## lordmayhem

sarcasmo said:


> I don't disagree, but I don't want to be the one to potentially ruin his business. It's one thing to humiliate someone, it's another to take his livelihood away. I know I'm probably overexaggerating the effect of posting his name to that site, but I'm not willing to take the chance.


It's a shame the OM doesn't show the same concern for you and your marriage.


----------



## badmemory

sarcasmo said:


> I don't disagree, but I don't want to be the one to potentially ruin his business. It's one thing to humiliate someone, it's another to take his livelihood away. I know I'm probably overexaggerating the effect of posting his name to that site, but I'm not willing to take the chance.


Okay, maybe I'm a vengeful lunatic, but you've got to be kidding. You're worried about ruining his business. About taking his livelihood away. Too worried to take that chance. Perhaps you're a Renascence man, but what does it take to get you angry?

All I can tell you is that in the case of the POSOM I dealt with, I would salivate at the opportunity to do that - and worse, if I could do it legally.


----------



## BobSimmons

sarcasmo said:


> I don't disagree, but I don't want to be the one to potentially ruin his business. It's one thing to humiliate someone, it's another to take his livelihood away. I know I'm probably overexaggerating the effect of posting his name to that site, but I'm not willing to take the chance.


That a nice sentiment, but it fails because simply this is not about taking away someone's livelihood. It's about the stark and absolute truth that actions have consequences. By OM coming into your your and taking your STBXW, he has destroyed your marriage.
Did you get an I'm sorry card, any apology, a handshake between men that this is the situation sorry for what happened but lets move on? Probably not. He ran rough shot over your life and you're left..here picking up the pieces.

What are the consequences of his actions? That the truth be hidden and he and she go off and enjoy their lives while you play nice guy with your morals?

His actions have to be brought to bear. It's not up to you how people make their minds up about a man that conducts an affair and breaks up his and his mistresses family. It's simply the truth.


----------



## movin on

You don't want to ruin his business ? Wow. To bad he wasn't as concerned for you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

sarcasmo said:


> I don't disagree, but I don't want to be the one to potentially ruin his business. It's one thing to humiliate someone, it's another to take his livelihood away. I know I'm probably overexaggerating the effect of posting his name to that site, but I'm not willing to take the chance.


You may be very wrong here. Read Southsideirish's thread. He refused to expose on Cheaterville and now his disappointed stbxw is plotting to parentally kidnap their children to the UK.

If you destroy his livelihood, he will be unable to finance the theft of your family, including your children. Remember, to afford your wife's nookie he has to have some means. She doesn't want to lose her children or sacrifice her standard of living.

Furthermore, if you can plant your boot squarely in his back and metaphorically send him over the edge of a cliff, you will feel better about yourself.

Why not write a Cheaterville script up and run it by everyone.


----------



## Gabriel

lordmayhem said:


> It's a shame the OM doesn't show the same concern for you and your marriage.


This sentiment about not hurting his business has to be the most Nice Guy thing ever.


----------



## Gabriel

LongWalk said:


> You may be very wrong here. Read Southsideirish's thread. He refused to expose on Cheaterville and now his disappointed stbxw is plotting to parentally kidnap their children to the UK.


Seriously? I have to catch up on that thread. SSI's wife is one of the most despicable I've seen. Wow.


----------



## northland

I agree that you should not expose nor should you post OM on cheaterville.

If he was to lose his reputation or his business over your action you can bet your bottom dollar he'll retaliate. 

Honestly, he's not the one destroying your marriage, it's your wife.

He could be anybody.


----------



## Chaparral

You think more of his business than he thought of your kids. Who told you he was divorcing his wife?


----------



## SadandAngry

Sarcasmo, you have no idea of the damage you are doing to yourself by just simply continuing to accept what comes to you at face value. You've read NMMNG, do you understand that you can't ensure a smooth outcome by playing nice? That your efforts and good intentions are not going to be matched by the people around you? That it is up to you to look out for your own interests? How does buying the story you've been fed help you? How does keeping silent about your wife's deceit and betrayal help you?


----------



## sarcasmo

I'm guessing Northland was being sarcastic and not the voice of reason? I can't tell if everyone's replies come from a place of bitterness or reason. I feel like I would be stooping to THEIR level by doing this. I'm not realy a believer in the eye-for-an-eye logic. At least, that's the way I try to raise my kids. 

The Love Languages book talks about two options when someone hurts you: justice or forgiveness. I guess I chose forgiveness as it's more of a sign of love.

As far as anger goes, I'm going f*cking crazy with it. It may not come accross in my posts because that's just the way I write, but I'm bursting with anger.

Moving on is for me. I suppose I could be convinced exposure is for me too (w/out the volleyball drama that clearly reaks of desperation). Maybe that's a good way of expressing some of my anger. I'm still listening (seems like that's all I'm doing so far! Where's the action! Where's the doing!). I will run exposure letters and a cheaterville script by you all to see what you think. Even if this doesn't get my wife back (something I'm actual on the fence about now), it may be theraputic.


----------



## LongWalk

Disenchanted had major success breaking OM on Cheaterville. Read his thread
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

sarcasmo said:


> I'm guessing Northland was being sarcastic and not the voice of reason? I can't tell if everyone's replies come from a place of bitterness or reason. I feel like I would be stooping to THEIR level by doing this.* Not stoopng to their level is a common excuse here for betrayed spouses until they grasp what other people have done to their family* I'm not realy a believer in the eye-for-an-eye logic.* No one is suggesting you destroy his family, he is doing that, you are just keeping it a secret for them, a willing participant.* At least, that's the way I try to raise my kids. *God help your kids, no one else is looking out for them*
> 
> The Love Languages book talks about two options when someone hurts you: justice or forgiveness.*You don't have a wife . This book is useless to you, you should read MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER to find out why your wife finds the POSOM more attractive than you.* I guess I chose forgiveness as it's more of a sign of love.* You chose the give up, turn tail and run option. You don't forgive people that do not ask for it, you have mis interpreted scripture*
> 
> As far as anger goes, I'm going f*cking crazy with it. It may not come accross in my posts because that's just the way I write, but I'm bursting with anger.
> 
> Moving on is for me. I suppose I could be convinced exposure is for me too (w/out the volleyball drama that clearly reaks of desperation). Maybe that's a good way of expressing some of my anger. I'm still listening (seems like that's all I'm doing so far! Where's the action! Where's the doing!). I will run exposure letters and a cheaterville script by you all to see what you think. Even if this doesn't get my wife back (something I'm actual on the fence about now), it may be theraputic.


* Really? Get on with it*

Don't get me wrong, I am not against you divorcing what is left of your wife. But what you are doing is tantamount to patting the POSOM on the back and letting him have your family and if you are lucky they will let you see your kids a couple of times a month. With your attitude you will end up paying them to do it.

If you think you are mad now wait to you here your kids calling him dad. Sooner or later they will judge you, I hope they can forgive as blithely as you do.

At least go to dadsdivorce .com. You are getting no help here.


----------



## sarcasmo

chapparal said:


> Don't get me wrong, I am not against you divorcing what is left of your wife. But what you are doing is tantamount to patting the POSOM on the back and letting him have your family and if you are lucky they will let you see your kids a couple of times a month. With your attitude you will end up paying them to do it.
> 
> If you think you are mad now wait to you here your kids calling him dad. Sooner or later they will judge you, I hope they can forgive as blithely as you do.
> 
> At least go to dadsdivorce .com. You are getting no help here.


I'm in. I need to get the divorce papers in order so I can move out and go no contact after the fireworks. I wont leave my house until I have legal protection. I'm not giving up my kids. They are going to need me more than ever.


----------



## Chaparral

You are not the cheater, why would you leave. You can't make her leave but you can still have the relief of telling her to [put her stuff in a garbage bag and get out. She may actually admire your backbone.

You never answered the question of who told you the OM was getting a divorce.


----------



## sarcasmo

chapparal said:


> You are not the cheater, why would you leave. You can't make her leave but you can still have the relief of telling her to [put her stuff in a garbage bag and get out. She may actually admire your backbone.
> 
> You never answered the question of who told you the OM was getting a divorce.


I already told her to move out. She said she's not abandoning her kids. How dare you ask me to abandon my kids. 

She told me. She has told me everything I know about POSOM. Sadly, I believe her. 

I need to start a My Story page because there is a lot of information missing. While she has been secretive and only giving bits of information at a time, she has actually been up front about having the OM the whole time. I just didn't/don't know the extent of their relationship. There were SEVERAL times she was reaching out to me to stop it and I sat back passively and did nothing. Not excusing her. I told her bluntly, you could have stopped it at any point. You didn't need me to do it, but I know that my being passive and seeming indifferent to saving our marriage allowed it to prosper and become a love relationship now. Well, at least they believe they are in love. Don't they all?


----------



## JCD

sarcasmo said:


> POSOM is divorcing his BS. Already living on his own. I'm not denying they want more than what they have now with each other. Thing is, they have a horrible foundation and it's likely to fail on it's own once they reveal their true selves to each other. I'm willing to let it run it's course as it's not my problem any more. If they make it, so be it. Again, I'm done worrying about my STBXW's life.
> 
> I'm not sure where you are going with your posts. Earlier you were very helpful with the 180 advice. I'm trying to stick to that.
> 
> Are you still suggesting I expose them? Based on the feedback here, you seem to be the only one that thinks I should still expose them. I think that ship has sailed. I had plenty of opportunities to blow the affair up and I blew it. Big time. At this point, I don't think it would have the desired effect.
> 
> Time to move on with my life, stop perseverating over the lost marriage and my WS, and focus on me, the kids, and the D.



You dont want to put ANY pressure on their burdgeoning romance even though it's doomed to fail. I say put as much pressure on it as possible now because I know who are strapped into the carseats of her Minivan of Doom and she's taking them down with her.

I was that kid. It sucks. At this point, I would walk the kids up to her and POS and introduce them. "This is the man who is trying to get your mom to break up the family. See exactly what a cheating thief looks like. It's okay to not like him."

Yeah, I'd poison that relationship from the get go. I'd 'inform' the kids. Because lying to kids is not the way to go. We figure it out very quickly...and resent being left in the dark. We think we are obliged to like this slick bastard who is suddenly and unwantedly part of our life. I would have loved a bit of clarity like this as a kid.

You shouldn't do that with all of your wife's new relationships, just this one. Because it's rotten to the core.


----------



## sarcasmo

Is the Private Members Section searchable via Google? I was thinking of adding my letters there.


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## sarcasmo

JCD said:


> You dont want to put ANY pressure on their burdgeoning romance even though it's doomed to fail. I say put as much pressure on it as possible now because I know who are strapped into the carseats of her Minivan of Doom and she's taking them down with her.
> 
> I was that kid. It sucks. At this point, I would walk the kids up to her and POS and introduce them. "This is the man who is trying to get your mom to break up the family. See exactly what a cheating thief looks like. It's okay to not like him."
> 
> Yeah, I'd poison that relationship from the get go. I'd 'inform' the kids. Because lying to kids is not the way to go. We figure it out very quickly...and resent being left in the dark. We think we are obliged to like this slick bastard who is suddenly and unwantedly part of our life. I would have loved a bit of clarity like this as a kid.
> 
> You shouldn't do that with all of your wife's new relationships, just this one. Because it's rotten to the core.


Giddy-up! Like I said, I'm in. Not sure I want to drag my little ones into it yet. Not sure I want to drag his in either, but since I don't know OMW's number, I might have to Facebook them. In that case, they will find out (probably before OMW).

Worst case scenario is I piss everyone off on the way to the D. Already heading there. I can handle some hate coming at me.


----------



## Thor

Do not expose imo. Exposure is to kill an affair. Your wife is totally checked out and divorce looks inevitable. It is in your favor, and thus your kids favor, for your wife to go away quietly. Exposure will anger her and possibly cause problems for you in the settlemment.

I would wait until the D is final then nuke 'em both. Keep evidenve so as to prove it when you do expose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

You are engaged in a primal struggle. A man wants what you have and is in the process of taking it. Winning over your children is part of the game of securing your wife’s affections. He will not raise your children to love and respect you, but to scorn and demean you.

Gone are the times when you could retaliate with a stone to the head. Cheaterville is a very mild form of retribution in the context of our evolution. By making this man feel fear and respect, you will have a better chance of protecting yourself and your children. At stake here is everything. You cannot afford to show politeness and consideration for someone who is bent on destroying you. You must be prepared to show your wife that you are someone to be reckoned with even you have lost her as a mate.

Let her have no illusions that her betrayal will lead to friendly subservience. It is better than she thinks he nice guy you was a façade beneath which there is a man who feels the raw anger of a simple white trash country singer or gangster rap artist. The Opera Carmen is about sticking a knife in a rival. The Iliad is about the extermination of the tribe that stole the woman. You should never threaten or hint at violence, but the vibration of your anger should hang in the air and cause their sphincters to tighten. 

Let posters like Chapparal, Warlock and Machiavelli counsel you in battle.


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## sarcasmo

LongWalk said:


> You are engaged in a primal struggle. A man wants what you have and is in the process of taking it. Winning over your children is part of the game of securing your wife’s affections. He will not raise your children to love and respect you, but to scorn and demean you.
> 
> Gone are the times when you could retaliate with a stone to the head. Cheaterville is a very mild form of retribution in the context of our evolution. By making this man feel fear and respect, you will have a better chance of protecting yourself and your children. At stake here is everything. You cannot afford to show politeness and consideration for someone who is bent on destroying you. You must be prepared to show your wife that you are someone to be reckoned with even you have lost her as a mate.
> 
> Let her have no illusions that her betrayal will lead to friendly subservience. It is better than she thinks he nice guy you was a façade beneath which there is a man who feels the raw anger of a simple white trash country singer or gangster rap artist. The Opera Carmen is about sticking a knife in a rival. The Iliad is about the extermination of the tribe that stole the woman. You should never threaten or hint at violence, but the vibration of your anger should hang in the air and cause their sphincters to tighten.
> 
> Let posters like Chapparal, Warlock and Machiavelli counsel you in battle.


Thor and a few others here are my NG brothers. Like an alchoholic and his sponsor, I take their advice very seriously.

I will talk with a lawyer (and/or the divorced dads website) before I do anything. I want to know my rights.

Right now I'm moving ahead w/the plans again. *Is the Private section really private? Google can't see it?*


----------



## warlock07

No, private members section is not "googleable"


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

sarcasmo said:


> I'm guessing Northland was being sarcastic and not the voice of reason? I can't tell if everyone's replies come from a place of bitterness or reason. I feel like I would be stooping to THEIR level by doing this. I'm not realy a believer in the eye-for-an-eye logic. At least, that's the way I try to raise my kids.
> 
> The Love Languages book talks about two options when someone hurts you: justice or forgiveness. *I guess I chose forgiveness as it's more of a sign of love.*
> 
> As far as anger goes, I'm going f*cking crazy with it. It may not come accross in my posts because that's just the way I write, but I'm bursting with anger.
> 
> Moving on is for me. I suppose I could be convinced exposure is for me too (w/out the volleyball drama that clearly reaks of desperation). Maybe that's a good way of expressing some of my anger. I'm still listening (seems like that's all I'm doing so far! Where's the action! Where's the doing!). I will run exposure letters and a cheaterville script by you all to see what you think. Even if this doesn't get my wife back (something I'm actual on the fence about now), it may be theraputic.



I wont leave a person without having any consequences if they play with the life and family of my kids.

You may call me bitter but I wont allow him to laugh at me after eating from my plate and disrespecting my kids family.


----------



## sarcasmo

I have started a new Thread in the Private section. Please share your thoughts. TIA!


----------



## MovingAhead

Sarcasmo,

Forgiving someone who hurt you is just that... You forgave them. 

'And Jesus said unto her, neither do I condem thee: go, and sin no more.'

People like you a lot of time think that forgiveness is forgiving all the time, every time... They use it as an excuse to be cowardly. They forget the second part of the parable 'go, and sin no more.'

Ok, you forgave you wife for cheating on you. That is good. The bad part is she did not just stop there. She is still doing it. She was caught and is still ruining your family and so is the POSOM.

You simply don't want to stand up to this mess and be a man! You don't want to confront this whole mess because you are in truth a coward. You were born a man and God gave you a set. It is time you used them.

You will be trounced in court and beaten down. You think that this man's business will be ruined because you expose him, but in truth as it was said before, it was his actions. Your wife's actions are/were deplorable. You are letting her have her cake and eat it too.

I have 3 boys. I tried very hard not to expose them to the whole mess that I was going through, but my EX kept putting them in scenarios where I didn't like what was happening to them so I ended up telling them.

I let them know what was going on. They saw me try my hardest to save my marriage. I failed. (I'm glad of it now) I told them because one day you son may grow up and he might meet a woman that he falls in love with and one day she just might throw him away like your wife did to you. Teach your sons to be strong by leading by example. Show them that when times get tough you pick yourself up and you do the right thing because it is the right thing to do.

You will not have any consequences for speaking the truth! Veritas quid est Veritas? Forgiving your wife does not give you an excuse to be a coward. It does not give you an excuse to not be a man and stand up for what is right for your children.

I guarantee that your wife is thinking right now she will get her kids, honestly because they are not yours and her POSOM. She is thinking about how POSOM is going to be a great husband, lover, and father to all the children and how they will all live happily ever after and you will just go away... mostly to live in some little hole. The only person to make this not a reality is YOU! 

You get to court, she is going to take every inch she can! You have been warned and warned and warned... This is not college where it's all theory. You are getting advice from people who have been there and know what works and what doesn't. There is no 'In theory,...' It's reality.

Your children deserve a father to teach them what is RIGHT! They don't deserve the POSOM. I would sure as heck expose him to the kids. I would definitely let them know. 

My EX is dating my neighbor. My kids hate him. They understand what has happened and you know what. They know what has happened is WRONG and the people who were involved were wrong. The will learn from this one way or another. They can live a life like their mom and drink and party and F*** whomever and see where that goes or like me, work hard, be honest, expect great things and just do the right thing as much as possible...

What kind of role model do you want to be here. You will be the role model of a dad who loves his kids so that he gets steamrolled or one who stands up for himself. They will see it. They will piece it together. Teach them how to be strong even when you are afraid.

It is ok to not know the answers as long as you believe you are doing what is right and best. I screwed up lots but in my heart I tried to be a good dad and that is what my kids see and respect.


----------



## Blue Firefly

> I guess I chose forgiveness as it's more of a sign of love.


Forgiveness without consequences is not love.

Go look up the thread about the daughter being arrested by the police. The mom is jumping through hoops to prevent the daughter from experiencing the consequences of her actions. Yet, it's clear that the best thing that could happen to her is to actually face the consequences of her actions.

One of the underlying themes of Christianity is that there are always consequences from sin; someone always has to pay the penalty for bad behavior. God forgave our sins, but Jesus still had to die on the cross to pay the penalty for your sins. 

OK, you're going to forgive her, but who is going to pay the penalty for her bad behavior? You, your children, your wife, the OM, the OM's wife...who?

Forgiving her does not mean you must also bear the consequences of her actions. Consequences are teaching tools, they keep up in line, they let us know when we've strayed too far from the correct path. You are not doing her any favors by keeping her from experiencing the consequences of her actions, in fact *you are hurting her; you are being cruel to her*.

Yes cruel, because by protecting her from the consequences of her actions now you are enabling her to not only continue down the wrong path but to make the same (or more likely worse) mistakes in the future. That's not love.

You are not a good person because you are "forgiving her" and bearing the consequences of her sins. What you are doing is turning yourself into a martyr--nailing yourself to a cross to bear the consequences of her sin. You should not be trying to raise yourself up to some moral plane by becoming a sacrificial martyr for someone else. To be blunt, that's Jesus' role; not yours.

God designed the world so there would be consequences to our actions, so we could learn and grow from experiencing those consequences. If you really love her, then let her experience the consequences of her actions, so she can learn, grow, and become the person she is meant to be.


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## sarcasmo

MovingAhead said:


> Sarcasmo,
> 
> Forgiving someone who hurt you is just that... You forgave them.
> 
> 'And Jesus said unto her, neither do I condem thee: go, and sin no more.'
> 
> People like you a lot of time think that forgiveness is forgiving all the time, every time... They use it as an excuse to be cowardly. They forget the second part of the parable 'go, and sin no more.'
> 
> Ok, you forgave you wife for cheating on you. That is good. The bad part is she did not just stop there. She is still doing it. She was caught and is still ruining your family and so is the POSOM.
> 
> You simply don't want to stand up to this mess and be a man! You don't want to confront this whole mess because you are in truth a coward. You were born a man and God gave you a set. It is time you used them.
> 
> You will be trounced in court and beaten down. You think that this man's business will be ruined because you expose him, but in truth as it was said before, it was his actions. Your wife's actions are/were deplorable. You are letting her have her cake and eat it too.
> 
> I have 3 boys. I tried very hard not to expose them to the whole mess that I was going through, but my EX kept putting them in scenarios where I didn't like what was happening to them so I ended up telling them.
> 
> I let them know what was going on. They saw me try my hardest to save my marriage. I failed. (I'm glad of it now) I told them because one day you son may grow up and he might meet a woman that he falls in love with and one day she just might throw him away like your wife did to you. Teach your sons to be strong by leading by example. Show them that when times get tough you pick yourself up and you do the right thing because it is the right thing to do.
> 
> You will not have any consequences for speaking the truth! Veritas quid est Veritas? Forgiving your wife does not give you an excuse to be a coward. It does not give you an excuse to not be a man and stand up for what is right for your children.
> 
> I guarantee that your wife is thinking right now she will get her kids, honestly because they are not yours and her POSOM. She is thinking about how POSOM is going to be a great husband, lover, and father to all the children and how they will all live happily ever after and you will just go away... mostly to live in some little hole. The only person to make this not a reality is YOU!
> 
> You get to court, she is going to take every inch she can! You have been warned and warned and warned... This is not college where it's all theory. You are getting advice from people who have been there and know what works and what doesn't. There is no 'In theory,...' It's reality.
> 
> Your children deserve a father to teach them what is RIGHT! They don't deserve the POSOM. I would sure as heck expose him to the kids. I would definitely let them know.
> 
> My EX is dating my neighbor. My kids hate him. They understand what has happened and you know what. They know what has happened is WRONG and the people who were involved were wrong. The will learn from this one way or another. They can live a life like their mom and drink and party and F*** whomever and see where that goes or like me, work hard, be honest, expect great things and just do the right thing as much as possible...
> 
> What kind of role model do you want to be here. You will be the role model of a dad who loves his kids so that he gets steamrolled or one who stands up for himself. They will see it. They will piece it together. Teach them how to be strong even when you are afraid.
> 
> It is ok to not know the answers as long as you believe you are doing what is right and best. I screwed up lots but in my heart I tried to be a good dad and that is what my kids see and respect.


Tough words, MovingAhead. The biggest issue I have is using my kids as leverage or just using them in general. First a foremost, they are smart enough to understand the situation, but so young. All three are under 7. I don't plan on isulating them from their mother's actions, but I'm not sure this age is the proper time to revel her indiscretions to them.


----------



## sarcasmo

Blue Firefly said:


> Forgiveness without consequences is not love.
> 
> ...
> 
> Forgiving her does not mean you must also bear the consequences of her actions. Consequences are teaching tools, they keep up in line, they let us know when we've strayed too far from the correct path. *You are not doing her any favors by keeping her from experiencing the consequences of her actions, in fact you are hurting her; you are being cruel to her*.
> 
> Yes cruel, because by protecting her from the consequences of her actions now you are enabling her to not only continue down the wrong path but to make the same (or more likely worse) mistakes in the future. That's not love.


Thank you. I appreciate your post. I'm sure STBXW and her POSOM wont agree with the bolded part, but it's not my fault. I can't enable them. They have to face the consequnces of their actions. 

I fear the consequences of my actions, but I will perservere and know that I'm just in what I'm doing.


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## Blue Firefly

sarcasmo said:


> Tough words, MovingAhead. The biggest issue I have is using my kids as leverage or just using them in general. First a foremost, they are smart enough to understand the situation, but so young. All three are under 7. I don't plan on isulating them from their mother's actions, but I'm not sure this age is the proper time to revel her indiscretions to them.


Your children are your responsibility.

At this point, your #1 priority should be preventing them from being raised by the POSOM.

If things don't change, he will be their role model in life, not you. His morality will be the morality they will become immersed in, not yours. They will grow up and make the same mistakes he is making now.

Do you want that? Do you want your "under 7 year olds" to grow up to become the POSOM?

The ONLY way to prevent that is to blow everything up--make sure his relationship with your wife never becomes permanent; make sure it ends before it ever gets started. 

Good God man--do you love your children or not?

If so, do everything you can--go to the mattresses--right now to protect them and damn the consequences.

Keep repeating that phrase: *damn the consequences*, until you understand that none of the potential consequences of your taking action--not one--is worse than your children being raised by that POSOM.

Take action; protect your children.


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## northland

sarcasmo said:


> I'm guessing Northland was being sarcastic and not the voice of reason?


I was not being sarcastic, and I was being the voice of reason. I was mostly agreeing with you not exposing the affair or posting the om on cheaterville.

You've decided to divorce so why make things ugly?

You've got nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing such reckless acts.

As far as you moving out because she won't. Tough call there, it all comes down to who will get primary custody of the kids. If you think you've got a chance and you've got the money and fortitude then go for it otherwise yeah you'll have to move out even though she's the one who checked out of the marriage first.


----------



## SadandAngry

sarcasmo said:


> Giddy-up! Like I said, I'm in. Not sure I want to drag my little ones into it yet. Not sure I want to drag his in either, but since I don't know OMW's number, I might have to Facebook them. In that case, they will find out (probably before OMW).
> 
> Worst case scenario is I piss everyone off on the way to the D. Already heading there. I can handle some hate coming at me.


You did not put your kids in this situation, your wife chose that. She is the one who introduced POSOM to them. He is a huge contributing factor in the destruction of their family, they ought to know that.


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## sarcasmo

Thanks, everyone. 

I have appointments with 2 divorce mediators (hopefully) next week. I have a call into a good friend's brother who is a lawyer to inquire about my rights. I want to be protected from losing the kids if this gets ugly. I wont make any moves until that piece is in order. I plan on asking the divorce mediators the same questions, so my work with the lawyer doesn't come out of the blue. I would still like to avoid litigation if possible. After she cools of.

I hope to start the exposure next week, but it may take longer to get the legal stuff taken care of. Big unkown for me. I can always go NC while we cohabitate, but I would prefer to be out of sight.


----------



## Voltaire

SadandAngry said:


> You did not put your kids in this situation, your wife chose that. She is the one who introduced POSOM to them. He is a huge contributing factor in the destruction of their family, they ought to know that.


I would urge you in the strongest possible terms not to involve the children.

Chidren who find themselves in the middle of emotional drama get traumatised. Do you really want to do that to your kids?

Plus, you may think that you are in the right, but they will not see it that way and they will never forgive you for it. Kids don't see things the same way that adults do. We think in terms of right and wrong. That's too sophisticated for little kids. All they will see is Daddy attacking Mommy and her being very, very upset. They don;t understand that Mommy did something unforgivable and that Daddy was incredibly hurt and was justifiably angry. They just see nasty Daddy upsetting Mommy and they just want it to stop. And then they will always think of Daddy as the nasty one.


----------



## sarcasmo

Voltaire said:


> I would urge you in the strongest possible terms not to involve the children.
> 
> Chidren who find themselves in the middle of emotional drama get traumatised. Do you really want to do that to your kids?
> 
> Plus, you may think that you are in the right, but they will not see it that way and they will never forgive you for it. Kids don't see things the same way that adults do. We think in terms of right and wrong. That's too sophisticated for little kids. All they will see is Daddy attacking Mommy and her being very, very upset. They don;t understand that Mommy did something unforgivable and that Daddy was incredibly hurt and was justifiably angry. They just see nasty Daddy upsetting Mommy and they just want it to stop. And then they will always think of Daddy as the nasty one.


Absolutely. I don't think my kids are old enough to understand it and I don't ever want to play games with my STBXW. Any issues we have will be handled away from the children. People tend to drag them into the mix far too often. I don't think my kids need to know just yet. When they are older, and they see the kind of man I am and how my STBXW and I are amicable, then we can have a serious discussion. For now, I'm keeping the kids (OM's and mine) out of it.

If I drag them into it, I'm no better than my parents were.


----------



## LongWalk

northland said:


> I was not being sarcastic, and I was being the voice of reason. I was mostly agreeing with you not exposing the affair or posting the om on cheaterville.
> 
> You've decided to divorce so why make things ugly?Maybe what is happening is already ugly but mostly at the expense of OP
> 
> You've got nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing such reckless acts.Explain, please
> 
> As far as you moving out because she won't. Tough call there, it all comes down to who will get primary custody of the kids. If you think you've got a chance and you've got the money and fortitude then go for it otherwise yeah you'll have to move out even though she's the one who checked out of the marriage first.Moving out will harm OP's custody case.


----------



## LongWalk

> Plus, you may think that you are in the right, but they will not see it that way and they will never forgive you for it. Kids don't see things the same way that adults do. We think in terms of right and wrong. That's too sophisticated for little kids. All they will see is Daddy attacking Mommy and her being very, very upset. They don;t understand that Mommy did something unforgivable and that Daddy was incredibly hurt and was justifiably angry. They just see nasty Daddy upsetting Mommy and they just want it to stop. And then they will always think of Daddy as the nasty one


Voltaire, you are projecting, based on your own situation.

Of course, children should be protected from the brutality of divorce struggles. But this is not possible to accomplish 100% by the very nature of business.

Parents should not enlist the children to take sides.


----------



## northland

LongWalk said:


> Maybe what is happening is already ugly but mostly at the expense of OP


What expense? She's cheating, he's leaving, they're getting divorced. He's wisely chosen to get out of the marriage as fast as possible. 



LongWalk said:


> You've got nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing such reckless acts.Explain, please


If he exposes, and posts the OM on cheaterville, they can retaliate and cause him problems in his own life. What can they do as revenge? Use your imagination. I think posting the om on cheaterville is petty and vindictive and the op has the right idea when he says he won't stoop to their level. 



LongWalk said:


> Moving out will harm OP's custody case.


Yes, that's true. I should have clarified. Ultimately he will probably have to be the one to move out -unless he goes for and wins custody- but he should not do that until he's covered himself legally.


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## treyvion

The bishop said:


> Why let her decide? Why give her time? That is a very weak position and usually unsuccessful. She has been controlling you and you keep allowing it. Coming to her with that weak sauce... time to decide, I give you until a day to make your decision. This is what she hears when you allow her to decide... Please please please pick me.... it is weak.
> 
> Don't you think it is time to be strong? Stop being affaid of making the decision for her.


I haven't been feeling so good today. This is crystal clear clarity, and it's how it needs to be done.


----------



## SadandAngry

Voltaire said:


> I would urge you in the strongest possible terms not to involve the children.
> 
> Chidren who find themselves in the middle of emotional drama get traumatised. Do you really want to do that to your kids?
> 
> Plus, you may think that you are in the right, but they will not see it that way and they will never forgive you for it. Kids don't see things the same way that adults do. We think in terms of right and wrong. That's too sophisticated for little kids. All they will see is Daddy attacking Mommy and her being very, very upset. They don;t understand that Mommy did something unforgivable and that Daddy was incredibly hurt and was justifiably angry. They just see nasty Daddy upsetting Mommy and they just want it to stop. And then they will always think of Daddy as the nasty one.


No one is saying demonize the wife. The POSOM on the other hand, how will that effect the kids, they aren't related to him, and he doesn't need to be (should not be) in their lives at all. Even if ww wants to date him, she doesn't need to bring him around the kids, but she is making that choice.


----------



## northland

SadandAngry said:


> Even if ww wants to date him, she doesn't need to bring him around the kids, but she is making that choice.


What does this even mean?

She doesn't "need" to bring om around her kids, but obviously it's "her choice" to bring him around if she wants to date him.


----------



## SadandAngry

northland said:


> What does this even mean?
> 
> She doesn't "need" to bring om around her kids, but obviously it's "her choice" to bring him around if she wants to date him.


Do your kids know everyone you associate with closely. Did you bring everyone you ever dated home? Do waywards bring every A P to their house? 

Sure she can choose to pursue the POSOM, but the kids should not be involved in that relationship at least until the divorce goes through. She is choosing to get POSOM involved with them, if the kids didn't see him, then it wouldn't make sense to tell them who he really is. Consequences, she brings him home, I'd let the kids know the role he actually has, not the one he pretends to have in the fantasy of the affair.


----------



## northland

SadandAngry said:


> Sure she can choose to pursue the POSOM, but the kids should not be involved in that relationship at least until the divorce goes through.


This is not about what's best for the kids, it's about what his wife wants to do to serve her own self interests. He can't control what she does, even if he got a court order prohibiting her from bringing the om around she could easily violate it and probably suffer no consequences. Odds are he couldn't get an order like that anyway unless the guy was an obvious danger and we're not talking about "emotional damage from being exposed to mommys affair partner".



SadandAngry said:


> She is choosing to get POSOM involved with them, if the kids didn't see him, then it wouldn't make sense to tell them who he really is. Consequences, she brings him home, I'd let the kids know the role he actually has, not the one he pretends to have in the fantasy of the affair.


The kids oughta be told that he is the man that mommy fell in love with instead of daddy and leave it at that.

They should not be led to believe that their mommy is some sort of bad person because she picked some other guy.


----------



## SadandAngry

I never said she should be demonized. POSOM on the other hand...

And yes, I am saying OP should not keep his mouth shut to make his wife's life easier or smoother, she made her choices, she can face some of the consequences. If the kids hate the POSOM, who cares, he is nothing to the kids in the long run.


----------



## northland

SadandAngry said:


> If the kids hate the POSOM, who cares, he is nothing to the kids in the long run.


How about letting the kids make their own decisions about mom's new man rather than influencing them out of spite.

This guy could be in their lives for good or he could be gone in a month.

No one knows, and it's not healthy for the children to be brought into conflict or told the new guy is not to be liked just because he stole mommy away from daddy or something like that.


----------



## Entropy3000

northland said:


> What expense? She's cheating, he's leaving, they're getting divorced. He's wisely chosen to get out of the marriage as fast as possible.
> 
> 
> 
> If he exposes, and posts the OM on cheaterville, they can retaliate and cause him problems in his own life. What can they do as revenge? Use your imagination. I think posting the om on cheaterville is petty and vindictive and the op has the right idea when he says he won't stoop to their level.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's true. I should have clarified. Ultimately he will probably have to be the one to move out -unless he goes for and wins custody- but he should not do that until he's covered himself legally.


Nothing wrong with being vindictive. He did not create this problem. They OM preyed on his marriage. 

Just not a believer in turn the other cheek. Hold both APs accountable.


----------



## sarcasmo

No one should manipulate the kids like that. If I have an issues with the guy, its my issue. If he lives up (or should i say down) to his morales, my kids will be smart enough to not like him without my influence. 

Despite her poor choices, my wife will set boundaries and not enmesh this POS in my kids lives. Ideally they are together when I have the kids. If she did try to merge their lives, I will have a lot to say about it. I dont think either of us should be too quick to introduce the kids to significant others. This is always a tricky situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## northland

sarcasmo said:


> Despite her poor choices, my wife will set boundaries and not enmesh this POS in my kids lives. Ideally they are together when I have the kids.


You have no idea what your wife will and won't do when it comes to this man. You don't know her nearly as well as you'd like to think you do.



sarcasmo said:


> If she did try to merge their lives, I will have a lot to say about it.


She won't listen to you then either.



sarcasmo said:


> I dont think either of us should be too quick to introduce the kids to significant others. This is always a tricky situation.


Yes it's a tricky situation and no, neither of you should be too quick to introduce the kids to significant others. That much being said, there's nothing you can do to stop your wife from introducing the kids to her significant other.

She's probably convinced herself it's the best thing in the world for them.


----------



## CEL

northland said:


> You have no idea what your wife will and won't do when it comes to this man. You don't know her nearly as well as you'd like to think you do.
> 
> 
> 
> She won't listen to you then either.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it's a tricky situation and no, neither of you should be too quick to introduce the kids to significant others. That much being said, there's nothing you can do to stop your wife from introducing the kids to her significant other.
> 
> She's probably convinced herself it's the best thing in the world for them.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: Good luck and if you can file the papers no matter what you can always cancel them later.


----------



## sarcasmo

CEL said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: Good luck and if you can file the papers no matter what you can always cancel them later.


It's all true. I can't trust her to do anything she has said anymore. I can't dispute that. But we don't know that she won't honor her word either. Prepare for the worst, I get that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sarcasmo

Entropy3000 said:


> Why would you care what it looked like!? A man is taking your wife and your children away from you and you are concerned how you look? Huh? The rules are for you to follow. You must color inside the lines but others are free to do what they want? I don't get it.
> 
> But, indeed if you are that passive, then you should not enter into an exchange you do not have the nads to see to the end. Ths is not critisizing you. I am just saying go big or stay at home. You have to have a fighters heart. You are conflict avoiding so you want to let yourself off the hook by telling yourself that being vindictive is wrong. Ok fine. Taking another man's family is wrong. A wife giving herself to another man is wrong.
> 
> So you can move on and be a virtuous guy. Just learn from this. This battle is not over even though your marriage is. The fact you have children is going to tie you together with them. So you better start standing your ground somewhere.
> 
> I would expose. But I would have done that a long time ago. You are you and that is fine. I am reading through the thread now because for sure I am missing some important facts.


Dude, that was days/hours ago. I'm all aboard the exposure train now. I don't know why it took me so long, but I'm in now. It might be too late, but I feel it has to be done. It's not my job to keep their secret any longer. 

For those wondering, I'm staying away from the cheaterville website...for now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Entropy3000

sarcasmo said:


> Someday I'll have to ask her. *They sound like good people.* Perhaps the OMW has put POSOM through so much they are looking the other way with regards to my wife. *Just happy he found a nice girl to save him from his STBXW.* My family loved my wife at first too. Now they don't talk to us much. *I take a big part of the blame there. Good luck to them. *I guess they can have her. *For her sake, I hope it works out.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:scratchhead: Found a nice girl? Huh!? She is cheating on her husband. She has children. Wow. Is this Stockholm Syndrome?


----------



## Entropy3000

sarcasmo said:


> I don't disagree, *but I don't want to be the one to potentially ruin his business.* It's one thing to humiliate someone, it's another to take his livelihood away. I know I'm probably overexaggerating the effect of posting his name to that site, but I'm not willing to take the chance.


OMG. Are you serious? You do not want to ruin his business yet he has ruined your marriage. Wow. 

No business or job is above a marriage that has children in it. This says it all. So this thread hs swirled around in eddys of impending action.


----------



## Entropy3000

sarcasmo said:


> Dude, that was days/hours ago. I'm all aboard the exposure train now. I don't know why it took me so long, but I'm in now. It might be too late, but I feel it has to be done. It's not my job to keep their secret any longer.
> 
> For those wondering, I'm staying away from the cheaterville website...for now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This stuff has changed every so many hours it seems. Forgive me if it seems very difficult to see what direction you are facing from one moment to the next. Glad you are exposing. I would not allow this guy near my home even with an in house separation that you are under.


----------



## Entropy3000

sarcasmo said:


> I'm guessing Northland was being sarcastic and not the voice of reason? I can't tell if everyone's replies come from a place of bitterness or reason. I feel like I would be stooping to THEIR level by doing this. I'm not realy a believer in the eye-for-an-eye logic. At least, that's the way I try to raise my kids.
> 
> The Love Languages book talks about two options when someone hurts you: justice or forgiveness. I guess I chose forgiveness as it's more of a sign of love.
> 
> As far as anger goes, I'm going f*cking crazy with it. It may not come accross in my posts because that's just the way I write, but I'm bursting with anger.
> 
> Moving on is for me. I suppose I could be convinced exposure is for me too (w/out the volleyball drama that clearly reaks of desperation). Maybe that's a good way of expressing some of my anger. I'm still listening (seems like that's all I'm doing so far! Where's the action! Where's the doing!). I will run exposure letters and a cheaterville script by you all to see what you think. Even if this doesn't get my wife back (something I'm actual on the fence about now), it may be theraputic.


Justice or Forgiveness.

This is a fallacy. You can certainly seek justice AND you can forgive. You hold people accountable. You forgive them to take the burden off yourself ... not them.

This is not a choice between the two. Forgiveness does not mean no consequences. You are confusing forgiveness with amnesty.


----------



## tom67

Entropy3000 said:


> As soon as you leave he will move in.


Ah let her leave.


----------



## Chaparral

northland said:


> I was not being sarcastic, and I was being the voice of reason. I was mostly agreeing with you not exposing the affair or posting the om on cheaterville.
> 
> You've decided to divorce so why make things ugly?
> 
> You've got nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing such reckless acts.
> 
> As far as you moving out because she won't. Tough call there, it all comes down to who will get primary custody of the kids. If you think you've got a chance and you've got the money and fortitude then go for it otherwise yeah you'll have to move out even though she's the one who checked out of the marriage first.


_How do you know what the OM was told?

*I've met, dated and maybe even screwed married women- trying to think back, it's a bit of a blur but there might have been one or two.

Several women I dated listed their status as "separated and getting divorced" and I was told the marriage is over and it's just about the legal paperwork working it's way through the slow courts.*

That could have been the truth OR it could very well have been that the poor husband had no clue and there was no divorce or separation in the works.

Does that mean I'm eligible to get my face bashed in by some guy who was deceived by his wife?

The problem very often is with the wayward spouse, not the other man or woman who could be under the impression that the marriage is as good as over._

Northland are you sure you are advising in behalf of the OP and not POSOM? This post of yours in another thread has me wondering about your advice to OP to lay down and take what the two cheaters are dishing out.


----------



## Chaparral

northland said:


> You have no idea what your wife will and won't do when it comes to this man. You don't know her nearly as well as you'd like to think you do.
> 
> 
> 
> She won't listen to you then either.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it's a tricky situation and no, neither of you should be too quick to introduce the kids to significant others. *That much being said, there's nothing you can do to stop your wife from introducing the kids to her significant other.*
> 
> She's probably convinced herself it's the best thing in the world for them.


The bolded part is exactly what refutes not do everything in your power to destroy the affair. Its obvious to anyone that has read even a few threads here.

Your timidity is going to be the most expensive thing that you have ever done to your family and your finances.


----------



## Blue Firefly

sarcasmo said:


> *Despite her poor choices, my wife will set boundaries and not enmesh this POS in my kids lives.* Ideally they are together when I have the kids. If she did try to merge their lives, I will have a lot to say about it. I dont think either of us should be too quick to introduce the kids to significant others. This is always a tricky situation._Posted via Mobile Device_


:crazy::crazy::crazy:

Are you delusional??

What do you think is going through her mind right now? It's the FOG fantasy of a new life and a new family with the POSOM. It's Leave it to Beaver.

A house with a white picket fence; her as the wife; the POSOM as the dutiful and loving husband;, and of course, the children--YOUR CHILDREN--all living together as one big happy family.

Won't enmesh the POS in your children's lives? Talk about being in a fog of denial.


----------



## MattMatt

Of course she will. And she'll be delusional enough to think she can explain it to you so you'll be happy with the idea.

"If I can just get him to see this how I see it, he and OM will become good friends. Why, they'll even BBQ food and drink beer together."

Fantasy time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Voltaire

sarcasmo said:


> Despite her poor choices, my wife will set boundaries and not enmesh this POS in my kids lives. Ideally they are together when I have the kids. If she did try to merge their lives, I will have a lot to say about it. I dont think either of us should be too quick to introduce the kids to significant others. This is always a tricky situation.


All I can say is that I thought that....but my STBXW offered to introduce my children to POSOM because "he would understand what they were going through". 

Didn't understand at all that it was completely inappropriate and potentially damaging to the kids.

I made it absolutely clear in no uncertain terms that that was just not going to happen. 

As pointed out above, WS is not operating from the same reality that you or I know. They are living in a strange fantasy. That's the same fantasy that you probably shared when you got married - perfect house, perfect family, perfect life with perfect, adoring husband and children. Except that now the "perfect husband" that she dreams of is POSOM and the kids are your kids. That's the fantasy "perfect life" that she left you for. 

When you view the world through her false perspective, there is absolutely nothing wrong with introducing the kids to their perfect future Dad. In fact, it's a good and desirable thing to do as it gets her one step closer to her dream and brings together all the people [she thinks] she loves. And what wouldn't the kids like about "perfect" dreamy POSOM? 

So she won't set that boundary. She won't see anything wrong. She will just go ahead and do it.


----------



## JCD

sarcasmo said:


> Absolutely. I don't think my kids are old enough to understand it and I don't ever want to play games with my STBXW. Any issues we have will be handled away from the children. People tend to drag them into the mix far too often. I don't think my kids need to know just yet. When they are older, and they see the kind of man I am and how my STBXW and I are amicable, then we can have a serious discussion. For now, I'm keeping the kids (OM's and mine) out of it.
> 
> If I drag them into it, I'm no better than my parents were.


 :cussing::cussing::cussing::wtf:issed: Oops sorry. I mean 'I believe that course of action is short sighted and unwise.'

I was left in a fog of what was happening with my parents. Dad didn't blame mom for her actions (and you should take note of the capitalization of my words carefully)

Instead, I was shuttled from one POS to another in nasty and blatant circumstances. I know this affected who I became.

I had no say, I had no knowledge and I did not have any leadership from my father except to 'try to keep things civil.' 'Get along and make things normal.' This was normal: ABBY normal.

They will take a lot of emotional damage if they have to sort out the fact that they don't owe these men anything except basic civility AND to watch out for perverts and bad men. You can't guard them from across town. You also need to establish VERY FIRM communication channels with them NOW. That mom can't ask them to hide things which might upset you if it involves their safety.

I am not saying to use them as whips to scourge your wife (Been there too, thanks) I am saying that indentifying the major problem is an issue. Telling them that their mother is making questionable choices and they don't emotionally owe this guy anything is also not over the top. Reiterate they need to be civil. They do not need to love anyone just because mom happens to be screwing them this week.

Obviously I am very biased on this issue because I have the scars to guide my opinions. If I had told my dad HALF of the stuff that went down, my mother would probably be up on charges. I would prefer that they avoid this.

Yes, I can see the danger of using them. I can also attest to the other side of the coin.

At the very least make it PERFECTLY clear that they HAVE to answer your questions about mom and POS. Just use that power judiciously.


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

chapparal said:


> The bolded part is exactly what refutes not do everything in your power to destroy the affair. Its obvious to anyone that has read even a few threads here.
> 
> *Your timidity is going to be the most expensive thing that you have ever done to your family and your finances.*


----------



## sarcasmo

JCD said:


> :cussing::cussing::cussing::wtf:issed: Oops sorry. I mean 'I believe that course of action is short sighted and unwise.'
> 
> I was left in a fog of what was happening with my parents. Dad didn't blame mom for her actions (and you should take note of the capitalization of my words carefully)
> 
> Instead, I was shuttled from one POS to another in nasty and blatant circumstances. I know this affected who I became.
> 
> I had no say, I had no knowledge and I did not have any leadership from my father except to 'try to keep things civil.' 'Get along and make things normal.' This was normal: ABBY normal.
> 
> They will take a lot of emotional damage if they have to sort out the fact that they don't owe these men anything except basic civility AND to watch out for perverts and bad men. You can't guard them from across town. You also need to establish VERY FIRM communication channels with them NOW. That mom can't ask them to hide things which might upset you if it involves their safety.
> 
> I am not saying to use them as whips to scourge your wife (Been there too, thanks) I am saying that indentifying the major problem is an issue. Telling them that their mother is making questionable choices and they don't emotionally owe this guy anything is also not over the top. Reiterate they need to be civil. They do not need to love anyone just because mom happens to be screwing them this week.
> 
> Obviously I am very biased on this issue because I have the scars to guide my opinions. If I had told my dad HALF of the stuff that went down, my mother would probably be up on charges. I would prefer that they avoid this.
> 
> Yes, I can see the danger of using them. I can also attest to the other side of the coin.
> 
> At the very least make it PERFECTLY clear that they HAVE to answer your questions about mom and POS. Just use that power judiciously.


All good advice. I have to keep the communication channels open with the kids and I plan to.


----------



## northland

chapparal said:


> _
> Northland are you sure you are advising in behalf of the OP and not POSOM? This post of yours in another thread has me wondering about your advice to OP to lay down and take what the two cheaters are dishing out._


_

All I'm saying is that there are assumptions being made about the OM that he's a POS because he chose to "steal a woman away from her husband and destroy her family".

He might not be the reason at all, he could have been told anything, he could be completely blameless in all of this. Regardless of what he knows or doesn't know, its the wife to blame because she's the one who is deceiving her husband, breaking her marital vows and causing untold grief to the kids. The OM is just a small part of the equation and yet everyone is saying "go after him!" as if that's going to do anything other than cause this poor guy more grief than he already has.

Although you made a good point in one of your other posts that I didn't consider.

Trying to break up the affair by exposing it,to keep the guy away from his kids is probably a good idea at this point._


----------



## Entropy3000

northland said:


> All I'm saying is that there are assumptions being made about the OM that he's a POS because he chose to "steal a woman away from her husband and destroy her family".
> 
> He might not be the reason at all, he could have been told anything, he could be completely blameless in all of this. Regardless of what he knows or doesn't know, its the wife to blame because she's the one who is deceiving her husband, breaking her marital vows and causing untold grief to the kids. The OM is just a small part of the equation and yet everyone is saying "go after him!" as if that's going to do anything other than cause this poor guy more grief than he already has.
> 
> Although you made a good point in one of your other posts that I didn't consider.
> 
> Trying to break up the affair by exposing it,to keep the guy away from his kids is probably a good idea at this point.


Affair partners are never blameless. But indeed this is another reason why exppsure should have occurred long long ago. It is the OM responsibility to make sure what he is getting into. Ignorance is no excuse. He went after a married woman with children.


----------



## sarcasmo

nm


----------



## treyvion

Entropy3000 said:


> Affair partners are never blameless. But indeed this is another reason why exppsure should have occurred long long ago. It is the OM responsibility to make sure what he is getting into. Ignorance is no excuse. He went after a married woman with children.


OM is not to blame if he didn't know she was married. If he knew she was married, then you have to look at it as a man trying to take your woman. However a man can't take your woman unless your woman allows it.

However how would you look at it, as someone who doesn't like you who gets your wife to betray you? Probably want to kick both of their a$$e$?

You can do whatever you want to do as long as it doesn't waste too much time in your life.


----------



## northland

Entropy3000 said:


> Affair partners are never blameless.





Entropy3000 said:


> It is the OM responsibility to make sure what he is getting into. Ignorance is no excuse. He went after a married woman with children.


Lets be realistic. A guy meets a woman, she tells him her marriage is over, a divorce is pending, and it's only a matter of time. What's he supposed to do, subpoena her for court records?

I guess he could DEMAND to see the divorce paperwork, and she could reasonably say it's none of his business, he can either trust her word or take a hike and I'd think most guys would shrug and say "ok, that's fine" and they wouldn't be out of line for doing so. 

It's NOT the guys responsibility to do some sort of background check or hire a private investigator to ascertain that his new dating partner is telling the truth about her failed marriage and there's no law that says a guy cannot date a woman who is not officially divorced.


----------



## Acabado

northland, read this and OP's others threads.
It's very unlikely OM didn't know she was married and living with his husband. He likely knew from the very beggining. Indeed WS usualy bond by meeting the needs they say lack in the currrent relationship, BSs are demonized, they become saviors... He surely was perfectly aware of their living arrangements, their childrens lives... of course with the "filters" up.
It's not about seeing the D paperwork. It's about not intruding in a troubled relationship yo begin with, and this is a long marriage wich involve children!
Refusing to admit APs' accountability in the final dismissal of the marriage scapes me.
It's like letting a bank robber off the hook becasuse he had a "inside man".
Every relationship and a set of problems, ups and downs. You just don't intrude taking adventage of a "down", specially with children in the mix. It's not cool at all. It speaks about OM's character. No doubt.
They only AP who are blameless are the one completely lied to (believed they were single and free to date).


----------



## sarcasmo

northland said:


> Lets be realistic. A guy meets a woman, she tells him her marriage is over, a divorce is pending, and it's only a matter of time. What's he supposed to do, subpoena her for court records?
> 
> I guess he could DEMAND to see the divorce paperwork, and she could reasonably say it's none of his business, he can either trust her word or take a hike and I'd think most guys would shrug and say "ok, that's fine" and they wouldn't be out of line for doing so.
> 
> It's NOT the guys responsibility to do some sort of background check or hire a private investigator to ascertain that his new dating partner is telling the truth about her failed marriage and there's no law that says a guy cannot date a woman who is not officially divorced.


The bulk of the blame squarely falls on my STBXW's back. She is the one pursuing him, driving all over creation to be with him. That is a fact. Everything else is hearsay. Is POSOM getting divorced? Is his wife crazy? What does POSOM's family really know about my STBXW? What has STBXW told him? What has POSOM told her? 

I have what my STBXW tells me, but as everyone here agrees, you can't trust any of that info. Any way you look at it, this POS sees the gray area and decides to live in it with my STBXW. He is responsible just by making that choice alone.


----------



## northland

^^ Exactly. Focus on your STBXW not the OM. He's not the problem, she is.

Although you meant to say "can't trust any of that info".

You mistakenly wrote that you CAN trust.

At least I hope that was a mistake


----------



## sarcasmo

Acabado said:


> northland, read this and OP's others threads.
> It's very unlikely OM didn't know she was married. He likely knew from the very beggining.


This. The POS met me at my house. He knew we were married. Does he know the status of our marriage, no. Not like we tell every delivery boy that we are separated or divorcing, but the POS knew we were married when they started this bullsh*t.


----------



## Entropy3000

treyvion said:


> OM is not to blame if he didn't know she was married. If he knew she was married, then you have to look at it as a man trying to take your woman. However a man can't take your woman unless your woman allows it.
> 
> However how would you look at it, as someone who doesn't like you who gets your wife to betray you? Probably want to kick both of their a$$e$?
> 
> You can do whatever you want to do as long as it doesn't waste too much time in your life.


You have your thoughts and I have mine. My thoughts are that both are accountable. I am not so limited that I have to assign accountability to one person only. No way I am buying that the OM did not know she was married and that there were no kids. But it is on him to know what he is getting into. These are adults, not children. 

I have no idea why some folks seem to think also holding the AP accountable is somehow letting the WS off the hook. That is their limitation though. Would not be mine. But this si why I said that exposure should have occurred long ago. Affairs die in the light of day. Plausible denial dies in the light of day.

I know it is trendy these days to give predators a free pass. I would not. YMMV. I would go all revelations personally but that is just me.

Conflict avoidance is its own reward. No one is blameless in an affair. The APs own it and those that enable it suffer from their own inaction.


----------



## Entropy3000

northland said:


> Lets be realistic. A guy meets a woman, she tells him her marriage is over, a divorce is pending, and it's only a matter of time. What's he supposed to do, subpoena her for court records?
> 
> *If he continues he does so with risk. That risk could be anything. He is not innocent. Let's not just be realistic but also be adults. It is on him. Wahtever she does is on her. This is not high school games. There are children involved. I am just saying that some of us take this very seriouly. Many do not. I am being pragmatic. It is not about right and wrong even. You mees with another persons spouse you run a risk. He is accountable for his behavior.*
> 
> I guess he could DEMAND to see the divorce paperwork, and she could reasonably say it's none of his business, he can either trust her word or take a hike and I'd think most guys would shrug and say "ok, that's fine" and they wouldn't be out of line for doing so.
> 
> *You could do anything you want. The risk is all yours. *
> 
> It's NOT the guys responsibility to do some sort of background check or hire a private investigator to ascertain that his new dating partner is telling the truth about her failed marriage and there's no law that says a guy cannot date a woman who is not officially divorced.
> 
> *Indeed it is his responsibilty. Life is full of choices. This is a proceed at your own peril choice.*


Predators have an agenda to minimize and even glorify preying on married people. Some get away with it and some do not. Passive guys are not good at holding anyone accountable. But I repeat, the OP should have exposed long ago. Being up front and direct and having boundaries cuts through all of this mind game stuff. To be clear my point is that no matter what any internet forum polling or thoughts on this, the amount of risk that a person puts them in when they are a predator has to do with the BS view of right and wrong. No one elses. So a guy who picks out a married woman and intends to make this a way of life is sooner or later going to bang the wrong guys wife. This guy knew she was married. And he probably made a judgement on the risk he was taking.


----------



## tom67

Entropy3000 said:


> Predators have an agenda to minimize and even glorify preying on married people. Some get away with it and some do not. Passive guys are not good at holding anyone accountable. But I repeat, the OP should have exposed long ago. Being up front and direct and having boundaries cuts through all of this mind game stuff. To be clear my point is that no matter what any internet forum polling or thoughts on this, the amount of risk that a person puts them in when they are a predator has to do with the BS view of right and wrong. No one elses. So a guy who picks out a married woman and intends to make this a way of life is sooner or later going to bang the wrong guys wife. This guy knew she was married. And he probably made a judgement on the risk he was taking.


How long before he drops her and on to his next "conquest".


----------



## Entropy3000

tom67 said:


> How long before he drops her and on to his next "conquest".


No telling. He may intend to keep her. Who knows?

He may just be getting off on taking her from the OP. But the carnage is the carnage.


----------



## sarcasmo

Entropy3000 said:


> No telling. He may intend to keep her. Who knows?
> 
> He may just be getting off on taking her from the OP. But the carnage is the carnage.


I know this isn't the popular opinion around here, but I've met this POS. I truly believe she is pursuing him. He's just happy to have the attention from a hot lil chicky 8 years younger than him. I don't think he's going anywhere. His actions are deplorable, but I don't think he's the predator type. 

Please don't look at this as me apologizing for him He is the scum of the earth and I'm going to treat him like that. I have no compassion for him.


----------



## treyvion

sarcasmo said:


> I know this isn't the popular opinion around here, but I've met this POS. I truly believe she is pursuing him. He's just happy to have the attention from a hot lil chicky 8 years younger than him. I don't think he's going anywhere. His actions are deplorable, but I don't think he's the predator type.
> 
> Please don't look at this as me apologizing for him He is the scum of the earth and I'm going to treat him like that. I have no compassion for him.


8 years younger, big deal. Thing about it, is if she is pursuing him, how in the hell can you stop her and why should you blame him, unless he is encouraging it, knowing she's married.


----------



## LongWalk

> Lets be realistic. A guy meets a woman, she tells him her marriage is over, a divorce is pending, and it's only a matter of time. What's he supposed to do, subpoena her for court records?


I agree with Northland on this point. People are getting separated, married and divorced all the time. The idea that some people are off limits is much weaker today. A civil marriage ceremony probably includes no definition of what most people assume a marriage commitment means. Simply put infidelity is not a crime.

No one is arrested for adultery. Moreover, even the civil consequences are small. Fault is not an issue in many states and countries.

Therefore, the issue of married people being seduced, predatory, etc. is not that big a deal. As Mach likes to put it a husband can be retroactively divorced in the court of the rationalization hamster as OM slides his hand into WW's panties for the first time.

When someone is waiting for D to be finalized, sexual relations outside of marriage is no longer cheating to most people.


----------



## Blue Firefly

sarcasmo said:


> I know this isn't the popular opinion around here, but I've met this POS. I truly believe she is pursuing him. He's just happy to have the attention from a hot lil chicky 8 years younger than him. I don't think he's going anywhere. His actions are deplorable, but I don't think he's the predator type.
> 
> Please don't look at this as me apologizing for him He is the scum of the earth and I'm going to treat him like that. I have no compassion for him.


Who cares why he's doing it.

If he walked up to you and suddenly cut your arm off with a machete, would analyze why he did it, or would you take immediate action to prevent him from cutting off your other arm?

If he cut off your child's head with a machete, would you be looking to make excuses for him?

The damage he is doing to your family--you and your children--is no less real than the physical damage above. And (imho), no less serious. You and your children will be seriously scarred for life because of his actions.



> ...I don't think he's the predator type.


People are defined by their actions, not their intentions.

His actions are those of a predator--he is taking another man's wife away from him.

He's a predator--period.



> I have no compassion for him.


Horse hockey. You've been making excuses for him all along. 

You clearly don't have the one thing for him that is required to solve your problems: hatred.

Are you incapable of hating somebody? Literally, is there some voice in the back of your head that says "it's wrong to hate; everybody deserves the benefit of the doubt"?

It is not wrong to hate. God hates; the Bible instructs us that there are things in life we should hate. What he is doing is one of them; he deserves your hate.

It's OK to hate him.


----------



## Entropy3000

LongWalk said:


> I agree with Northland on this point. People are getting separated, married and divorced all the time. The idea that some people are off limits is much weaker today. A civil marriage ceremony probably includes no definition of what most people assume a marriage commitment means. Simply put infidelity is not a crime.
> 
> No one is arrested for adultery. Moreover, even the civil consequences are small. Fault is not an issue in many states and countries.
> 
> Therefore, the issue of married people being seduced, predatory, etc. is not that big a deal. As Mach likes to put it a husband can be retroactively divorced in the court of the rationalization hamster as OM slides his hand into WW's panties for the first time.
> 
> When someone is waiting for D to be finalized, sexual relations outside of marriage is no longer cheating to most people.


Ask Mach what happens in that circumstance when a husband decides that it matters. Good luck.

Maybe this is a cultural thing. I am not used to this passivity in men.


----------



## LongWalk

Blue Firefly said:


> Who cares why he's doing it.
> 
> If he walked up to you and suddenly cut your arm off with a machete, would analyze why he did it, or would you take immediate action to prevent him from cutting off your other arm?
> 
> If he cut off your child's head with a machete, would you be looking to make excuses for him?
> 
> The damage he is doing to your family--you and your children--is no less real than the physical damage above. And (imho), no less serious. You and your children will be seriously scarred for life because of his actions.
> 
> 
> 
> People are defined by their actions, not their intentions.
> 
> His actions are those of a predator--he is taking another man's wife away from him.
> 
> He's a predator--period.
> 
> 
> 
> Horse hockey. You've been making excuses for him all along.
> 
> You clearly don't have the one thing for him that is required to solve your problems: hatred.
> 
> Are you incapable of hating somebody? Literally, is there some voice in the back of your head that says "it's wrong to hate; everybody deserves the benefit of the doubt"?
> 
> It is not wrong to hate. God hates; the Bible instructs us that there are things in life we should hate. What he is doing is one of them; he deserves your hate.
> 
> It's OK to hate him.


:iagree:

This is completely sound. I am not certain that the word predator is right. It suggest images of a pedophile and there is no evidence of that, although you should always worry about the motives of any dude who takes over the children of another man.

I prefer the word "competitor".

It is alright to hate a competitor. After all this is not darts, whist or basketball, we are talking about. He is stealing your mate and children to boot.

You may not hate him now because you are not a hating kind of guy, but you will hate him when your children call him "daddy" and you "father".

The hatred will be even worse if you pay child support but are not allowed to see your kids 50/50.


----------



## Entropy3000

LongWalk said:


> :iagree:
> 
> This is completely sound. I am not certain that the word predator is right. It suggest images of a pedophile and there is no evidence of that, although you should always worry about the motives of any dude who takes over the children of another man.
> 
> I prefer the word "competitor".
> 
> It is alright to hate a competitor. After all this is not darts, whist or basketball, we are talking about. He is stealing your mate and children to boot.
> 
> You may not hate him now because you are not a hating kind of guy, but you will hate him when your children call him "daddy" and you "father".
> 
> The hatred will be even worse if you pay child support but are not allowed to see your kids 50/50.


The dude that breaks into my home and threatens my family is not a competitor. They are a predator and are dealt with harshly.

So is a man who conspires to destroy my family. He gets treated with the same care. But there do seem to be a number of guys who post here who do not feel this way. LOL. I do not think that is a sample of your average husband.

But for this thread it really does not matter. So continue on.


----------



## CEL

This is kinda getting sidetracked on the whole predator or not thing and really it makes not difference what you want to call him just like it would not matter a hoot whether the OM's name is John or Bob. Simple questing have you filed yet? If not why? You marriage is gone, dead, buried and the bones have been gnawed on by dogs. File the papers just like in a fight better to get the first punch in she has had you on the ropes and you have taken some mighty big blows but nows the time to do some dirty boxing with a good elbow to the face. FILE the PAPERS.

Hope you see the other end oh and I also hope you give as good as you have gotten.:smthumbup:


----------



## ThePheonix

Entropy3000 said:


> Predators have an agenda to minimize and even glorify preying on married people.


Here's the reason I don't recommend worrying lot about the other other man (woman) and holding the other accountable. A person that pursues married people are generally POS as most say. I ran with married women for years and "bagged" a number of them. But for all my indiscretion, not once did I chase them. They let me know they were seeking attention. If you don't think women send signals they a open to approach you are wrong. Believe me, you seduce single girls. The married ones seduce you.
I started out when a female co-worker who set me up with several of her married female friends. A couple of these girls would invite me to go to Panama City Fl with them on a girls weekend out with full knowledge of the other girls on the trip. 
One girls husband came down on one such outing and the other girls covered for her saying I was with one of them who was divorced. 
When you have a wife that's on the prowl, can you really put a lot of accountability on the guy. Isn't she the one, and not him, that is betraying you. If a married girl want to play, some guy within her reach is going to oblige her.


----------



## LongWalk

CEL said:


> This is kinda getting sidetracked on the whole predator or not thing and really it makes not difference what you want to call him just like it would not matter a hoot whether the OM's name is John or Bob. Simple questing have you filed yet? If not why? *You marriage is gone, dead, buried and the bones have been gnawed on by dogs. File the papers just like in a fight better to get the first punch in* she has had you on the ropes and you have taken some mighty big blows but nows the time to do some dirty boxing with a good elbow to the face. FILE the PAPERS.
> 
> Hope you see the other end oh and I also hope you give as good as you have gotten.:smthumbup:


:iagree:
File asap


----------



## sarcasmo

CEL said:


> This is kinda getting sidetracked on the whole predator or not thing and really it makes not difference what you want to call him just like it would not matter a hoot whether the OM's name is John or Bob. Simple questing have you filed yet? If not why? You marriage is gone, dead, buried and the bones have been gnawed on by dogs. File the papers just like in a fight better to get the first punch in she has had you on the ropes and you have taken some mighty big blows but nows the time to do some dirty boxing with a good elbow to the face. FILE the PAPERS.
> 
> Hope you see the other end oh and I also hope you give as good as you have gotten.:smthumbup:


Monday. We are meeting with two Divorce Mediators. I assume we'll just start the process with the first one and get this over with.


----------



## CEL

Good for you remember this is all about you now. You still love her and care for her but you have to get past that. You need to only worry about what you want for YOUR life. Treat her just like her actions have shown she wants to be treated as someone who took you trust and love and tossed them away life garbage. YOU don't owe her anything. And keep posting you need the support and the place to vent.


Good things are coming your way.


----------



## sarcasmo

CEL said:


> Good for you remember this is all about you now. You still love her and care for her but you have to get past that. You need to only worry about what you want for YOUR life. Treat her just like her actions have shown she wants to be treated as someone who took you trust and love and tossed them away life garbage. YOU don't owe her anything. And keep posting you need the support and the place to vent.
> 
> 
> Good things are coming your way.


Thanks, CEL. I do still love her so I have had a really hard time detaching. Every time I think I have, I get sucked back in. Either by a comment of hers (that gives me hope) or my own weaknesses. I hope that after the divorce process begins and I get past the exposure, I will have an easier time detaching. In house separation sucks. Depending on how the mediation goes, and what my lawyer says, I may still pursue moving out once I'm protected from losing the kids. It will be much easier to go "dark" on her then and really rebuild my life. 

Btw, I'm trying not to engage in arguments, but last night she was in a foul mood and I couldn't walk away or STFU. I should have, I'm just too stupid sometimes. Anyway, I suck at arguing so I'm wondering if any of you have any advice for when she pulls this one me. I know I shouldn't engage, but just in case... 

Basically, I blame her for the infidelity and tell her how hurt I am and she turns around and blames me for all the hurt she felt during the marriage. All the years she begged me to change and I did nothing. All those years she was fighting to save the marriage and I sat back passively not working at all to change. I see that. I know I f'd up. I can't apologize enough. I know her pain was awful, but she still goes there every time we fight and I have nothing to come back with. I know I shouldn't even engage in these arguments, but the are the kinds of moments I draw a blank. Frozen in my Nice Guy shame. It sucks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JCD

Her: "You never worked on our marriage."

Him: "You are correct."

Her: "You never loved me or tried."

Him: "If that is what you believe, who am I to tell you differently."

Her: "You forced me to do this."

Him: "I never held a gun to your head. If you were so dissatisfied, you should have just left. You didn't but now you are leaving after...doing what you did. I may have forced you away, but I never forced you to cheat."

Her: (saying other inflammatory things)

Him: "So...is this about rubbing my nose in your infidelity and trying to hurt me? We are done. Let go and leave me in peace so we can do this amicably. You presence bothers me."

And there is always the generic "For someone who no longer cares about me, you certainly seem passionate about arguing with me and hating me. Sorry for having ruined your life. Can you please stop upsetting the children."


----------



## SadandAngry

You should work on your self worth. Try reading some of Brene Brown's books, like the gifts of imperfection, and daring greatly. Read them until you understand them, and would be able to clearly explain the concepts to another person, then start practicing the techniques.


----------



## CEL

sarcasmo said:


> Thanks, CEL. I do still love her so I have had a really hard time detaching. Every time I think I have, I get sucked back in. Either by a comment of hers (that gives me hope) or my own weaknesses. I hope that after the divorce process begins and I get past the exposure, I will have an easier time detaching. In house separation sucks. Depending on how the mediation goes, and what my lawyer says, I may still pursue moving out once I'm protected from losing the kids. It will be much easier to go "dark" on her then and really rebuild my life.
> 
> Btw, I'm trying not to engage in arguments, but last night she was in a foul mood and I couldn't walk away or STFU. I should have, I'm just too stupid sometimes. Anyway, I suck at arguing so I'm wondering if any of you have any advice for when she pulls this one me. I know I shouldn't engage, but just in case...
> 
> Basically, I blame her for the infidelity and tell her how hurt I am and she turns around and blames me for all the hurt she felt during the marriage. All the years she begged me to change and I did nothing. All those years she was fighting to save the marriage and I sat back passively not working at all to change. I see that. I know I f'd up. I can't apologize enough. I know her pain was awful, but she still goes there every time we fight and I have nothing to come back with. I know I shouldn't even engage in these arguments, but the are the kinds of moments I draw a blank. Frozen in my Nice Guy shame. It sucks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



She is trying to hurt you to make her guilt less happens all the time. Ever hear the phrase a good defense is a good offense? Shen knows how to hurt you, you have been together for a long time of course she knows where to hit you. You are feeling shame because she is hitting you at a sensitive spot nothing to feel bad for. As for you not changing you are not the one that broke your vows, ripped out the person who you were supposed to loves heart, and lied all the time. No matter what you did it does not forgive her betrayal and she knows it so she has to go on the offensive.
As for the arguments hey if you can't win them no worries that is the only thing she has going for you. You don't have to be good at everything and even the best debater would not be able to get through to someone who is filled with hate and spite. Look at all the hate groups we see? If a logical argument really worked against hate we would have a different world. So if you get sucked in and lose just know that all her words are worthless just like her honor, integrity, devotion, compassion and the rest of her character. You are still the better person. Just keep focusing on you and keep posting we are always here for you.


----------



## sarcasmo

CEL said:


> She is trying to hurt you to make her guilt less happens all the time. Ever hear the phrase a good defense is a good offense? Shen knows how to hurt you, you have been together for a long time of course she knows where to hit you. You are feeling shame because she is hitting you at a sensitive spot nothing to feel bad for. As for you not changing you are not the one that broke your vows, ripped out the person who you were supposed to loves heart, and lied all the time. No matter what you did it does not forgive her betrayal and she knows it so she has to go on the offensive.
> As for the arguments hey if you can't win them no worries that is the only thing she has going for you. You don't have to be good at everything and even the best debater would not be able to get through to someone who is filled with hate and spite. Look at all the hate groups we see? If a logical argument really worked against hate we would have a different world. So if you get sucked in and lose just know that all her words are worthless just like her honor, integrity, devotion, compassion and the rest of her character. You are still the better person. Just keep focusing on you and keep posting we are always here for you.


Wow, thanks again CEL. She is filled with hate and spite. Incapable of forgiving me. So sad for her. So sad for me and my children. Let her win the arguments. I don't care. I know I'm the one living life the right way. 

What pisses me off is she is dragging the whole family down on her selfish quest for this elusive fulfillment. I really hope she finds it so I don't have to resent her the rest of my life for doing this to our children. I told her as much today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sarcasmo

JCD said:


> Her: "You never worked on our marriage."
> 
> Him: "You are correct."
> 
> Her: "You never loved me or tried."
> 
> Him: "If that is what you believe, who am I to tell you differently."
> 
> Her: "You forced me to do this."
> 
> Him: "I never held a gun to your head. If you were so dissatisfied, you should have just left. You didn't but now you are leaving after...doing what you did. I may have forced you away, but I never forced you to cheat."
> 
> Her: (saying other inflammatory things)
> 
> Him: "So...is this about rubbing my nose in your infidelity and trying to hurt me? We are done. Let go and leave me in peace so we can do this amicably. You presence bothers me."
> 
> And there is always the generic "For someone who no longer cares about me, you certainly seem passionate about arguing with me and hating me. Sorry for having ruined your life. Can you please stop upsetting the children."


Good stuff as always, JCD! I have to keep these in my pocket at all times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sarcasmo

Just venting. My STBXW couldn't sleep last night and took off this morning around 4 or 5. My kids woke up around 7:30 and thankfully didn't ask where their adulteress mother was. She has an aerobics class an 9:00 and usually gets out if the house early for it, but today was ridiculous. Asked her where she went; no answer. Told her fine. I already assume where you went so I'll go with that. No answer. Ridiculous. The woman is beyond gone right now. Why do i let it bother me? 

$100 says she takes more time later tonight to go see him. 

Anyway, I took some me time last night, hung out with an old friend, and didn't get in until 2:30-3:00 am (I do see how time can fly, but I won't tell her that). Felt good hanging out with someone. She texted me some crap about her having to get used to what I've been getting used to. Watching me go out and hoping I'm safe. I texted back, almost the same thing. Just add in utter betrayal, heart ripping pain, and mind movies and you will almost understand my pain. Didn't ruin my night. Looking forward to spending more time with friends and family. Let her "worry about my safety"...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Don't engage in such exchanges. She is just trying to make herself comfortable.


----------



## ginger-snap

> Basically, I blame her for the infidelity and tell her how hurt I am and she turns around and blames me for all the hurt she felt during the marriage.


Two wrongs don't make a right.


----------



## JCD

Okay. Here is advice simple enough for anyone to follow:

*Shut Up*

She texts you. Nothing.

She tries to bait you. Nothing

She screams. Nothing

She wants to set up a divorce appointment or coordinate things with the kids? Short concise answer. Try and answer in 10 words or less. Count them before you say them and edit.

Have you READ the 180? Where did it say to ask her where she has been? It says NOT to.


----------



## JCD

What did you do today to further the divorce?


----------



## sarcasmo

JCD said:


> What did you do today to further the divorce?


Didn't get her a card or gift. Walked around angry. I know that's not what you meant, but my actions are sealing the deal. Tomorrow we see the mediator. 

I know the 180. Sticking to it is hard. It takes a lot of willpower. I've been struggling to just act happy and go one with my life. I have to recommit to it. I'm still to I emtionally invested in everything. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BobSimmons

sarcasmo said:


> Didn't get her a card or gift. Walked around angry. I know that's not what you meant, but my actions are sealing the deal. Tomorrow we see the mediator.
> 
> I know the 180. Sticking to it is hard. It takes a lot of willpower. I've been struggling to just act happy and go one with my life. I have to recommit to it. I'm still to I emtionally invested in everything.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No need to act "happy" if you're not, detach and keep to yourself if you're struggling to put up a happy face


----------



## sarcasmo

BobSimmons said:


> No need to act "happy" if you're not, detach and keep to yourself if you're struggling to put up a happy face


I feel bipolar. I can't separate. One minute I'm her BFF, the next I'm angry at her. I'm struggling big time to detach. I don't know how to be around her and not act like myself. Like her husband. I have to keep reading the 180 and reminding myself how to act. She fired me as her husband. I can't get sucked back in. I can't feel guilty for not replying to texts. Thing is, I'm not even do sure it's guilt. I just enjoy hearing from her. 

This is so hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BobSimmons

sarcasmo said:


> I feel bipolar. I can't separate. One minute I'm her BFF, the next I'm angry at her. I'm struggling big time to detach. I don't know how to be around her and not act like myself. Like her husband. I have to keep reading the 180 and reminding myself how to act. She fired me as her husband. I can't get sucked back in. I can't feel guilty for not replying to texts. Thing is, I'm not even do sure it's guilt. I just enjoy hearing from her.
> 
> This is so hard.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not about her, it has to be about you. That is the 180, not her but you. It's about what you want, what you need to see, your self worth not being defined anymore by her actions. You can "enjoy" getting the text, nothing wrong with that, just keep looking ahead to the big picture and why you are in this situation to begin with and how you eventually want to come out of it.


----------



## ThePheonix

sarcasmo said:


> I feel bipolar. I can't separate. One minute I'm her BFF, the next I'm angry at her. I'm struggling big time to detach. I don't know how to be around her and not act like myself. Like her husband.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sarc my man, we're trying to get to snap out of the partial delusion you're in. When you're around her, youre not acting like her husband. You're acting like her girlfriend who is against her infidelity. In one sentence you're calling this dude a POS and the next talking about how your STBXW is chasing him. In my mind you're trying to put the POS tee shirt on the wrong person. She's gone buddy and your place is nothing but a temporary refueling and rest stop until you're out of the picture.
The sad thing is you're right to blame yourself for the demise of your marriage if it was anything like you described. You ignored her needs, and let things just fall where they may. You were no romantic challenge. You weren't a "nice guy". Your were a selfish and lazy guy who took her for granted. ( and as you've discovered, that ain't the thing to do when there a hounds like I used to be lurking about) Unluckily for you, it appears she put something on this guy that he ain't willing to give up on and send her home.
My advice at this point--you can go out in one of two way, standing like a man who is eager to make the best of this experience or a whiner and begger with your tail tucked between you legs.


----------



## Chaparral

You are just pretending. Its called wallowing in self pity and trying to get her to pity you. What you and everyone else like you accomplishes though is contempt and revulsion. Obviously this gets you the opposite result you are begging for. Until you get that , you will just have to suffer.

Some people never wake up. Good luck.


----------



## Disenchanted

SadandAngry said:


> Holy crap, you're worse than disenchanted was!


That's really saying something.

Lol, but I'll tell ya, letting go of her has been the best thing that I've ever done. I'm behind you Sarcasmo, you'll be a lot happier once you can detach 100%.

While I still have a lot of stuff to work through, I am in such a better place then I was a year ago and when I came here.

And on the self pity thing, man watch out for that crap. Snap yourself out of it if at all possible.

I have more self esteem these days than I have since my marriage became sexless.

You can do it!


----------



## Disenchanted

LongWalk said:


> Disenchanted had major success breaking OM on Cheaterville. Read his thread
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you haven't read my thread, you might really benefit from it.

Talk about a doormat shaped jellyfish!

You'll probably feel better about yourself when you see what a pile of spineless goo I became when my wife crushed my dreams.

It's in my signature, but it's a very long thread.

I'm feeling much better! I get more attention from women than I ever have and mostly feel indifferent to her, though I do feel disgusted in her presence still. But I just stay cool, smile, and NEVER react to her anymore.


----------



## sarcasmo

Disenchanted said:


> If you haven't read my thread, you might really benefit from it.
> 
> Talk about a doormat shaped jellyfish!
> 
> You'll probably feel better about yourself when you see what a pile of spineless goo I became when my wife crushed my dreams.
> 
> It's in my signature, but it's a very long thread.
> 
> I'm feeling much better! I get more attention from women than I ever have and mostly feel indifferent to her, though I do feel disgusted in her presence still. But I just stay cool, smile, and NEVER react to her anymore.


Thanks, Dis. I've tried a couple times to start your thread. I'll get through it eventually. Just like this. I appreciate you support.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sarcasmo

Saw our first divorce mediator today. As is usually the case, I liked them and she didn't. Hopefully tonight's is awful so she just goes with the lesser of two evils. The bigger story is that she is done with this marriage. No doubt in her mind. Certainly we were both super emotional (sad) but she would sign the papers yesterday. I have to remember this and continue to move on. I'm still going through with tomorrow's plans. I just hope it doesn't upset the mediation process. 

I'm finding the Just Let Them Go thread to be very helpful. I need to read it along with the 180 every day. Keep reinforcing those behaviors. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/24796-just-let-them-go.html#post306559
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

sarcasmo said:


> The bigger story is that she is fine with this marriage. No doubt in her mind. Certainly we were both super emotional (sad) but she would sign the papers yesterday. I have to remember this and continue to move on. I'm still going through with tomorrow's plans. I just hope it doesn't upset the mediation process.


So she's fine as long as she can keep her boyfriend?
Keep pushing, man. You are right, let her go.


ETA
I re read it. I asume you wanted to type she's fine with the marriage ending.


----------



## sarcasmo

Acabado said:


> So she's fine as long as she can keep her boyfriend?
> Keep pushing, man. You are right, let her go.
> 
> 
> ETA
> I re read it. I asume you wanted to type she's fine with the marriage ending.


Yeah. Horrible typo. She's done. Done with this marriage. Time to put her out if my mind and move on. I figure if I keep saying that, before I know it ill actually get there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sarcasmo

I need help. I know everyone is sick of my over analyzing, so I expect to be hit with a lot of grief, but I'm really struggling here. My therapist really believes exposure is a bad idea. He doesn't see any upside. My NMMNG mentors feel similarly. All I can come up with is:
The affair sees the light of day, potentially killing it or at least creating some discomfort.
I feel like a "man" for being able to stand up for myself.
If the affair crumbles, my kids are safe from this POS.
On the other hand:
My STBXW is pissed and mediation is no longer an option. This will cost my family a lot of money and grief.
Everything she has said is true. They are just plutonic [now] and my kids really aren't in danger of this POS becoming their new Daddy.
This will come out of nowhere. I have been pushing the "You deserve to be happy. You need this. I'm letting you go" talk for a while with STBXW. Wouldn't this just fly in the face of that mentality? Making all of it seem fake?
My STBXW really doesn't care what other people think. She doesn't like to be told what to do by anyone. Example: Her good friend is getting a ton of grief from her family re: her EA and my STBXW is just disgusted by their behaviour. (to be clear, the friend is getting grief from the friend's own family about her own A; not my STBXW's family or my STBXW's A)
I'm really having trouble justifying the upside. Our marriage is shot. She really seems to believe this. Even I see a lot of the incompatibility. Others here agree. Someone made a great point about my unavailability. I have this belief I was doing everything for her, but what did I really do? Some chores? Come home on-time from work to help with the kids? What did I really do for her? I think I'm the one in the fog.

Regardless, I feel that with work and therapy we can overcome out marital issues, but she doesn't agree. I have to let her go. Go figure out what the hell she wants/needs in life. I need to do the same, as scared as I am. As much as I don't want to give up the life we had prior to all this. 

Exposure just seems like a desperate measure that will only cause unneeded tension in a dead marriage. I should have done it 4-5 months ago, but now, it's just too late and desperate.

I really feel like I need to just move on. Use the tools in the 180 and http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/24796-just-let-them-go.html thread. Stop perseverating on the loss of the marriage. I know a lot of you feel doing so is simply passive, and maybe it is, but I look at it differently. This will probably be equally hard for me to do. Commiting to self improvement is hard work. Something I haven't been able to do thus far in my life. Get some self esteem. Overcome passivity and fear. Become the type of father my kids can look up to. Find some life energy.

I look forward to everyone convincing me otherwise (or just ignoring me because you have already made your cases and I'm just stubbornly frozen with fear of everything).


----------



## Tall Average Guy

sarcasmo said:


> I look forward to everyone convincing me otherwise (or just ignoring me because you have already made your cases and I'm just stubbornly frozen with fear of everything).


Assuming all that you say above is correct (I suspect your STBXW wants others to think well of her, despite what she says. I also would not be that sure that it stays plutonic if it even is; finally, if she is going the scorched earth, what else can she do), there is still the issue of the truth. Consider that she is laying the ground work with others for you to be the bad guy in this divorce. Maybe no overtly, but certainly that she cannot live with the guy you are now, and needs to get away. Heck, you are feeding that by telling her that she needs to leave to be happy. You will likely pay a price in loss of friends, respect from family, and perhaps even your kids when they start hearing this stuff. Your reputation is important to.

This is not to say that you need to expose. That is up to you. I just want you to truly understand what you are forgoing by not doing it.


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## Disenchanted

I'm betting that even if you could kill the affair, and she came crawling back to you, that you will never be able to get over all of this.

Come to grips with that.


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## Voltaire

sarcasmo said:


> I'm really having trouble justifying the upside. Our marriage is shot.


Well, it's certainly shot whilst the A continues. 

Is exposure the answer? I don't know. i strikes me that exposure only has an effect where the people you tell will care and condemn and where the WS and/or the AP will care about their condemnation.

In my case, there really wasn't anyone who filled those criteria. As has been noted on this site, a lot of people just write off affairs as "one of those things" and don't want to get involved. A lot of toxic friends actually cheer for the sidelines. I told a lot of people - every time I told people about the divorce I told them of the A - but no-one with leverage. My STBXW is simply avoiding anyone who she thinks will disapprove (telling herself that she has left behind "those sort of people" because she has changed so much and embraced a new lifestyle and a new crowd). 

I think the other danger is that if you get the exposure wrong (particularly to people you don't know) you can end up just looking like a weird, weak stalker, not the strong man you want to look like.

So I think it very much depends on circumstances. to my mind (and I know others will disagree) exposure should be done clinically and with purpose, not indiscriminately and vindictively. 

But if you do decide to expose you should not be afraid of her anger. Do not feel forced to justify yourself. Just let her rant on and simply say "I thought they deserved to know". You know full well that it is the anger of someone who has been caught out, not the anger of someone who has been wronged. Just stay calm and silent (a very strong thing to do in and of itself) and let the storm blow itself out. "Have you quite finished?" is always satisfying when the ranting is through - or even when it has only paused. She will hate your silent calmness but she will respect it.


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## sarcasmo

Disenchanted said:


> I'm betting that even if you could kill the affair, and she came crawling back to you, that you will never be able to get over all of this.
> 
> Come to grips with that.


I believe I can. Mainly because I have insight into the downfall of our marriage. I know the role I played. Years of emotional abandonement and an indifferent exterior appearance. She checked-out of the marriage over a year ago, but didn't have the strength to follow through on separation or divorce. She did a weak thing, inviting this man into her life/heart. I can forgive her of that. I believe I can move past it. Only if she can truly reconcile and do what is necessary. To date, she has shown no remorse.


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## Thor

Being one of the NMMNG crowd, I think the time to expose has long passed. At least in terms of breaking the A and possibly saving the marriage.

There is potential leverage in your divorce if you do not expose. You can remind her how thoughtful you have been of her reputation by keeping this private. Let's not call it blackmail, but it is a form of pressure. She can engage in a fair and civilized process, but if she chooses to be a witch about it you can unleash all of your guns, which would include bringing the A into the picture.

Once the D is finalized you can choose to expose to people who are important to you which she may have poisoned or misinformed. Many people are disposable to you, so you don't have to expose to the whole world. But if she has badmouthed you to friends, your family, or your professional associates then it would be fine for you to set the record straight.

Keep all of your evidence secured where she can't destroy it.

I agree that exposure now would look like some kind of crazed desperate move. You want to be cool and businesslike.


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## Disenchanted

sarcasmo said:


> I believe I can. Mainly because I have insight into the downfall of our marriage. I know the role I played. Years of emotional abandonement and an indifferent exterior appearance. She checked-out of the marriage over a year ago, but didn't have the strength to follow through on separation or divorce. She did a weak thing, inviting this man into her life/heart. I can forgive her of that. I believe I can move past it. Only if she can truly reconcile and do what is necessary. To date, she has shown no remorse.


I'm just going to paste something I posted on another thread yesterday.

So yeah, I've had outbursts and anger issues at times in the past during our marriage. I was always willing to work on them (together), work them out (together), through thick and thin, for better or worse, in sickness in health, blah blah mother phucking blah blah.

*SHE BETRAYED YOU.*

Totally different game.

R can not happen without remorse, very contrite remorse.

Stop holding onto a dream that has become a nightmare. She's gone. 

Sorry to be harsh, but pull your head out of your ass. Not meeting her emotional needs, not being a perfect man, not knowing exactly the right thing to do is in a completely different league from infidelity. You could have worked through those issues together, but instead she went outside of the marriage.

You are not going to heal from this until you pull your focus from her and put it on yourself. Really.


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## Disenchanted

Thor said:


> Being one of the NMMNG crowd........


This post is spot on IMHO.


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## sarcasmo

SadandAngry said:


> You should work on your self worth. *Try reading some of Brene Brown's books*, like the gifts of imperfection, and daring greatly. Read them until you understand them, and would be able to clearly explain the concepts to another person, then start practicing the techniques.


Sh*t. How did I miss this? Way back when we were (OK, when she was) trying, in marriage counseling, our MC told us to watch a TED presentation by Brene Brown. I remember it being very good. F*ck man, where was my drive 12 months ago? Now I'm hyperfocused on a marriage I can't save. Hopefully BB can help "me". Grabbed The Gifts of Imperfection.


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## sarcasmo

Not sure why I find this funny (and it clearly violates the 180! Bad, Sarcasmo!!!), but I was paying the phone bill today and just had to look. The night I went out, she talked to the POSOM for almost 3 hours. Her texts to me were sandwiched around their phone call. Actually, she sent another text to me while on the phone with him. It's a shame that she is "working on herself" in this way. I wish her luck.

OK. Done with that. The next week is about me and the kids.


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## SadandAngry

sarcasmo said:


> Sh*t. How did I miss this? Way back when we were (OK, when she was) trying, in marriage counseling, our MC told us to watch a TED presentation by Brene Brown. I remember it being very good. F*ck man, where was my drive 12 months ago? Now I'm hyperfocused on a marriage I can't save. Hopefully BB can help "me". Grabbed The Gifts of Imperfection.


The thing is, she can't help you anymore than we can. You are the one person that can save you. You have to put the ideas into action. You have to, because no one else can do it for you.

Things like standing up for yourself. Exposure is one way to do that. Refusing to facilitate your wife's adultery in any way, shape, or form is another. For example, take her phone off of your plan, today, right now. Again, where are you sleeping? Where is she sleeping? In most things in life, it is not the grand gestures that will make a lasting impact on reality, it is all the little things, the day to day minutiae that people take for granted that really makes the difference. It ess true in your marriage, it will ne true in your divorce, and it will be true in your recovery.

Exposure is like a grand slam. It's bog, it's splashy, but that isn't what matters. The flash will fade, but the little ways people start treating you, her, and tha AP differently, that is why you expose. Your life gets easier in the longer run, their's gets harder in the short term, and it drives them apart. That doesn't matter if you don't want to R, but the fact that you stood up for yourself does.


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## Chaparral

The reason you will not expose is the reason you let your marriage/family slide. You haven't/can't do it because you do not really want it. Like now, you are trying to get us to decide for you. Exposure works, all the arguements against it boil down to fear of doing anything proactive. What you really want to fo is sit back and watch.


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## sarcasmo

I know most of you are done with/fed up with me, but I have added some updates to my private members section thread. Something will change today and I'm OK with either outcome.


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## sarcasmo

Exposure is a go. I know some of you disagree with this tactic, but in light of recent events, I had no choice.

Feels good to finally "DO" something. Either this gets us quicker to D or quicker to R. I'm going to be OK either way.

Who had 3 1/2 months in the "How long until Sarcasmo grows a pair" pool? Not that they are fully grown yet.


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