# Does Counseling help?



## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

The universal admonition from those advising couples with problems is "Counseling" of one sort or another. Individual, Marriage, Couple, Sex, etc. 

I have no experience and we never had need for "counseling" within context of marriage. But, had intensive, expensive, long-term experience with a family member. Most of that experience with numerous different "professionals" was almost universally horrible. The results were worsening pathology, eventually repaired by a doctor with a minimalist approach.

So my question is, are there measurable metrics publicized by other than those with financial stake in the profession illustrating that "counseling" achieves anything useful?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

There have been some studies about this. The more specific the issue(s), the more likely progress can be made, but sometimes it just makes things worse. In my experience, marriage counseling (even with different counselors) made no positive difference even over extended timeframes. Individual counseling helped me see the best choice for me regarding that relationship, and quickly.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Counseling can benefit a couple who’s primary issue is poor communication and conflict resolution skills. 

What counseling does not help is poor character, mental illness, personality disorders, narcissism, selfishness, entitlement, lack of attraction, lack of respect, lack of boundaries etc etc etc. 

It cannot make one person love another.

It cannot make one person desire the other. 

It cannot change the heart or the mind of someone that sincerely wants to end the relationship. 

It can help two people who love and respect each other that are mentally sound and of good character where both want to be together, learn more effective communication and conflict resolution skills.

But if your dealing with mental illness, personality disorder, bad character or simply no longer wanting to remain in the relationship, there’s probably not much MC can do. 

MC is also spitting in the wind in cases of infidelity where the WS is still getting with the AP.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

The above is a bunch of bullcrap.

Yes, therapy can help. It will only help if the participant(s) want it to work and are putting in the effort, though. Forcing someone to get therapy is a waste of time, money, and a spot that could have gone to someone else. It's also important for them to have a good therapist, the right therapist, and the right type of therapy. There are plenty of bad therapists out there, and a good therapist and method for one person may be a poor match for someone else.

Saying therapy can't help mental illness is ridiculous. It is an extremely useful tool for both the individual and the spouse. Will it _cure_ the illness? No, but it is a necessity for the individual and can help the spouse cope as well.

Things like ILYBINILWY and losing attraction can be helped as well, depending on the cause. If the couple gets into therapy to bring them closer together emotionally, sometimes those feelings follow. Things like being a selfish prick or having poor boundaries can also be addressed in therapy and worked on. Infidelity... that is a huge one that definitely needs the help of both a MC and IC's. And yes, it helps. It's helpful for children as well, whether they go alone or for family therapy.

So yeah, therapy can help. Again, IF the participant(s) wants it to help and puts that into action. Just wanting it isn't enough, and just showing up and emptying your wallet isn't enough either.

Personally, I think most people should give it a shot before calling it quits on their marriage (excluding things like abuse, etc).


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

I understand why we'd like to have metrics, but they are problematic here. 

If you have a metric for a medicine, as long as it is used correctly in the trial, your metric will tell you what you need to know. But for MC, you can't really ever be sure the "medicine" will be used correctly, particularly if the medicine is for one spouse to stop being a ****.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

bobert said:


> Saying therapy can't help mental illness is ridiculous. It is an extremely useful tool for both the individual and the spouse. Will it _cure_ the illness? No,


Actual Mental illness requires the care of psychiatrists, medical doctors and actual mental health therapists , not marriage counselors.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Actual Mental illness requires the care of psychiatrists, medical doctors and actual mental health therapists , not marriage counselors.


Never said it didn't.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Actual Mental illness requires the care of psychiatrists, medical doctors and actual mental health therapists , not marriage counselors.


I work as a marriage counsellor. It's a specialisation, but I'd say I am an "actual mental health therapist" with, in my case, 6 years of university-level training. I have to be trained as a therapist, because the couples that come to me bring, more often than not, mental health problems such as depression, anxiety, OCD, bipolar, personality disorders, and addictions. I'm unlikely to be treating someone who's schizoprenic or psychotic, to be sure, alhough it has happened. Psychiatrists and medical doctors are a different kind of expert.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Only if both parties are with open mind, receptive and willing to do the work to make change.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

AVR1962 said:


> Only if both parties are with open mind, receptive and willing to do the work to make change.


But in that case why would they need counseling? Perhaps some need 3rd-party validation to make their work on the marriage real?


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Casual Observer said:


> But in that case why would they need counseling? Perhaps some need 3rd-party validation to make their work on the marriage real?


I wouldn't connect counseling with third-party validation.

As another mentioned, it can be a tool. However, the tools alone aren't enough. I think that's where @AVR1962 (and @bobert) make a good point about being receptive and willing - as well as having a skilled therapist that's a good fit / can establish the trust required.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

AVR1962 said:


> Only if both parties are with open mind, receptive and willing to do the work to make change.





Casual Observer said:


> But in that case why would they need counseling?


Well, that position can be a bit like "I'm willing to try skiing, I'm nervous, but I'll get on the slope if there's someone with me who knows what they are doing".

Sometimes with a couple it's just about "who goes first?" with listening to each other and saying what they mean. Otherwise they can be stuck in "well I'm not going to try to speak honestly to my partner while they are still just trying to score points". Some refereeing can help.

And also, this is why it's hard to get metrics, as the OP asked, because what constitutes success? Happy ever after? Sometimes a couple just bicker endlessly because one or both don't really like the other, don't _want _to be emotionally close to them, and would really prefer not to be around them at all, but circumstances mean it's hard for them to split up. If the MC gets them to admit that, and they go their separate ways, do you call that a success?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Casual Observer said:


> But in that case why would they need counseling? Perhaps some need 3rd-party validation to make their work on the marriage real?


Even people that are committed to working on the relationship are a good, decent people still have a blind side and can still have some beliefs and perceptions that aren't sound and it's common for even good people to have poor communication and conflict resolution skills. 

MC can help with those things.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Laurentium said:


> I work as a marriage counsellor. It's a specialisation, but I'd say I am an "actual mental health therapist" with, in my case, 6 years of university-level training. I have to be trained as a therapist, because the couples that come to me bring, more often than not, mental health problems such as *depression, anxiety, OCD*, bipolar, personality disorders, and addictions. I'm unlikely to be treating someone who's schizoprenic or psychotic, to be sure, alhough it has happened. Psychiatrists and medical doctors are a different kind of expert.


I'll send you my wife...  It didn't work for us... because... see bolded...


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> I'll send you my wife...  It didn't work for us... because... see bolded...


OCD is a tough one, a really horrible condition.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Laurentium said:


> OCD is a tough one, a really horrible condition.


Indeed, although my wife has the so-called "Pure O". I know many say it doesn't exist, but I think it does (I have never seen any outward compulsions in her, apart from scratching the same spot on her head)...  She doesn't act on her thoughts, they just go around her head, non stop. So, she is on anti-depressants and they work. Unfortunately, they destroyed our sex life, hence all our problems, also because she refused to go to therapy despite all her promises. I didn't deal with it in a mature way, and made things a lot worse. Do you specialise in communication - or lack of - too?


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

MC can work with the right therapist & when both parties are committed to doing the work. 

DH & I attended a communications workshop that we got some things out of. My IC has helped tremendously over the years but it took a while to find the right therapists. I have had some who were amazing & some I swear got their credentials out of a cracker jack box.


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

Marriage Counseling was great for me to quickly decide that divorce was by far my best option.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> Indeed, although my wife has the so-called "Pure O". I know many say it doesn't exist, but I think it does (I have never seen any outward compulsions in her, apart from scratching the same spot on her head)...  She doesn't act on her thoughts, they just go around her head, non stop. So, she is on anti-depressants and they work. Unfortunately, they destroyed our sex life, hence all our problems, also because she refused to go to therapy despite all her promises. I didn't deal with it in a mature way, and made things a lot worse. Do you specialise in communication - or lack of - too?


This is another aspect to the problem. As I recall, "counselors" dont prescribe medications, but readily refer their "patient" to a medical "professional" who can and will. So the diagnosis is "depression", anti-depressants are prescribed. All drugs have side effects, ( and withdrawal issues ) in this case destroyed sex life which depresses the partner as well as the patient. So medical "professional" prescribes another drug to counteract the destroyed sex life, and away we go. Handfull of pills every day, worsening pathology, an over medicated (and depressed) patient(s).


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Rus47 said:


> This is another aspect to the problem. As I recall, "counselors" dont prescribe medications,


Correct, you need a medical degree to write prescriptions. A psychiatrist actually has a medical degree as well as some training in mental health and can prescribe medicines.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

There will be millions of examples of it going well, and going poorly. I have seen a few counselors over time, some individually, and some as a couple. The thing that seemed to determine if it works well are the meshing of personalities and communication. The counselors that helped, were able to help me look at things differently and ask questions I had not thought of. The ones that did not work well seemed to want to apply cookie cutter fixes.

The last counselor I went to, made a recommendation for medication and I worked with my physician and we, as a team, started something.

Psychiatrists will tend to be heavy on meds, and often it is hard to find one that actually wants to listen and not just try more or different pills.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Casual Observer said:


> But in that case why would they need counseling? Perhaps some need 3rd-party validation to make their work on the marriage real?


You might be willing to work on the marriage, but need advice on how. Communication is a biggie, how to constructively disagree. Also, when she does X, why do you take it to mean Y? Sometimes there is the referee function, no one should put up with that, knock it off.


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## hplove (Jan 19, 2021)

i kind of like coaching better, they are 2 different approaches.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

There must be some situations were counseling does help, but I've not seen it. 

My analysis of IC is that your paying someone to listen to you. For me, any IC that has lasted more than 1 session has basically been useless. IC for my wife has been ineffective because my wife does not know how to communicate with the counselor, therefor it goes nowhere. 

We have finally started MC this year, and it has not helped at all, because my wife does not know how to communicate with the counselor.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

As many have said, I think it works when both parties want it to work. I also think it's "last exit before toll" for most relationships as many people look at it as just something to check off so they can rationalize to themselves that "they tried".


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

If the issue is a lack of basic relationship skills, or communication issues, marriage counseling can be wonderful. It's the right tool for the right job.

The biggest problem for the "relationship advice/skills marketplace" is that most experts and approaches are typically only good at solving one type of problem, and troubled relationships often have a tangled mess of multiple problems. So even if progress is made on the issue they can solve, the relationship can still be bad because of the other unresolved issues.

Most of our frustrations with marriage counselors is like being angry that a plumber does a crap job of electrical work.


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## destination-unknown (Apr 27, 2021)

I would say yes it CAN help.
But also no it cant.

I've been on both sides.

DW and Myself love one another and went to counseling before getting to a point where we wanted to walk away from one another. We both WANTED the relationship and worked toward that.

My 1st wife (I married too young and realized it quickly) wanted the relationship, but I did not. Counseling there was simply an appeasement for her, but my mind was already made up and no amount of counseling would've changed that.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

destination-unknown said:


> My 1st wife (I married too young and realized it quickly) wanted the relationship, but I did not. Counseling there was simply an appeasement for her, but my mind was already made up and no amount of counseling would've changed that.


Counsellors hate when people do that.


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## destination-unknown (Apr 27, 2021)

Laurentium said:


> Counsellors hate when people do that.


I have to 100% agree. Hell, the counselor had her step out of the room and flat out called me out on it, and said "why are you here". I think that was one of our final sessions, but it became very clear to me what needed to happen as a direct result of that single question.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

destination-unknown said:


> Counseling there was simply an appeasement for her, but my mind was already made up and no amount of counseling would've changed that.





destination-unknown said:


> Hell, the counselor had her step out of the room and flat out called me out on it, and said "why are you here".


"For last rites".


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

I guess should maybe have incorporated a poll. The answers to my original post are sometimes counseling is worthwhile, sometimes not. Will confess my experience with it for family member was horrible in every respect so guess am biased. The one professional (an MD) who managed to achieve positive results actually did the least. There is another very long thread in the private section, where the TAM "experts" enthusiastically embrace IC and MC. The OP in that thread says she can "afford" once a week, but needs every day, and doesn't want to do the "homework". She tried to get her husband to participate in MC ( while she was in middle of a 6 month affair unknown to him ) but he refused.

Thought maybe there had been a results oriented article summarizing the circumstances when counseling was worth the extraordinary high cost. Thanks for the feedback, hopefully will never have need for MC.


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## TurnedTurtle (May 15, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> doesn't want to do the "homework"


Well, that's no good. No wonder she feels she needs therapy every day!

We all know that people (even counselors) can't change other people -- one can only change oneself. But I suspect that people who may want to change often have no idea where to start, or what they really need to do (i.e., how) to change. They could perhaps benefit from education and guidance, someone who could recognize misperceptions and offer alternative perspectives, and someone who -- directly or indirectly -- helps hold them accountable for making progress (i.e. doing the "homework"). But it is work, no doubt about that.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Another comment regarding MC and IC, prompted by the very long thread by WS. I believe that in most cases, counseling cannot change a patient's innate personality or behavior. All counseling can do is provide tools, as thought processes or methods to help the patient successfully live with their condition. And, the counselor has to meet the person where they are while recognizing the patient's basic personality and core beliefs.

For example, depression may be medicated to prevent the patient from spiraling into the abyss and give them time to recognize and cope with their condition without harming themselves or others. If a couple is headed for divorce because of sexual dysfunction of some sort, the counseling may progress to coaching and maybe medication to allow the couple to cope with the issue.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Rus47 said:


> Another comment regarding MC and IC, prompted by the very long thread by WS. I believe that in most cases, counseling cannot change a patient's innate personality or behavior. All counseling can do is provide tools, as thought processes or methods to help the patient successfully live with their condition. And, the counselor has to meet the person where they are while recognizing the patient's basic personality and core beliefs.
> 
> For example, depression may be medicated to prevent the patient from spiraling into the abyss and give them time to recognize and cope with their condition without harming themselves or others. If a couple is headed for divorce because of sexual dysfunction of some sort, the counseling may progress to coaching and maybe medication to allow the couple to cope with the issue.


I absolutely agree. I went to MC and the counselor went thru very elaborate exercise with my STBX on how to avoid lying when he feels like he needs to protect himself from consequences. Never worked. Not once. It is who he is. 
The only thing the counseling did was explain how hurtful that behavior was to me. Didn’t change him just made him aware.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

2&out said:


> Marriage Counseling was great for me to quickly decide that divorce was by far my best option.


I agree. This was my experience. Also, if it takes a third party to help someone see you should treat your spouse with respect and care, is that someone you want to be married to, anyway? 🤔

Kind of the emotional equivalent of duty sex. Duty care.... because you've been told it's something you should do, not because you naturally feel that way. No thanks.


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