# Can you get a WS out of their fog?



## canttrusthim (Apr 22, 2012)

My WH had a six-month PA with a former co-worker that was discovered when he left that employer for a new job. He was very forthcoming with the gory details of the A. They "fell in love," so theirs was a highly emotional and intimate A too. Three to four days a week they got together after work. They were both nervous and scared, so never went to a motel. Instead they had all sorts of sexual contact in the back seat of her SUV.

It's been about two months since she went NC with him. He refuses to give me a NC promise. In fact, he tells me that he plans on contacting her one day to bring closure to their relationship. He said they had promised each other that they wouldn't end their relationship via phone or email, but they'd do so in person. (Oh please, gag me.)

Meanwhile, I think the OW and her husband are working on their relationship. During their A, the OW told my WH how her husband was controlling and that she knew five years ago that marrying him was a mistake. But I know that the OW and her husband are both in IC and MC, and they recently went on a vacation together. 

My WH is still in his fog. We are going to MC, but he refuses to go to IC. He believes that our marriage was so dysfunctional that it was just a matter of time before one of us strayed. So it just happened to be him that strayed first. Obviously he does not want to take full responsibility for crossing boundaries and pursuing the A. He also does not believe that experiences from childhood and adolescence have anything to do with one's behaviors as an adult. He thinks that's all bulls**t.

We've both read "Not Just Friends." He doesn't want to read any other books. He feels that most other books are condescending to WSes. I've read "Five Love Languages", "After the Affair" and "Surviving an Affair". I've described the five love languages to WH, but he hasn't read the book himself. We both recognize what our own love languages are (and big surprise, they're completely different between us).

I found a photo of the OW on Facebook, and I was surprised at how unattractive she is. I showed the photo to my WH, and he said that it was a vacation photo and she looked better than that at work. I asked him if he thought she was pretty, and he said yes. I was floored, but I realized it's still the fog. She is definitely not prettier than me. I was especially hurt because my WH has never told me I'm pretty. Rather, he's said that I'm beautiful "inside". (And yes, that comment really hurt me.)

I believe that if I asked WH whether he would pursue the A again if he had it to do over, he would say yes. 

He is moving out in a couple weeks for a controlled separation. He said he needs space away from me to think and determine what he wants. I told him that I'm also going to use the time away from him to assess what I want.

Throughout our MC, he has wanted to downplay his A. He wants us to move past that and focus on our communication. While I agree that it was poor communication between us that caused our marriage to become dysfunctional, I just can't get past the betrayal. 

What frustrates the heck out of me is that he is still in his fog. The fog isn't as thick as it was two months ago, but it's still there. Is it just going to take time for it to completely dissipate? I want him to realize what a complete idiot he's been.


----------



## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Without him committing to NC, I don't think there will be much to break the fog. 

As many say on TAM - can't have 3 in a marriage


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

_*He refuses to give me a NC promise. In fact, he tells me that he plans on contacting her one day to bring closure to their relationship.

Obviously he does not want to take full responsibility for crossing boundaries and pursuing the A. 

I believe that if I asked WH whether he would pursue the A again if he had it to do over, he would say yes. 

He is moving out in a couple weeks for a controlled separation. He said he needs space away from me to think and determine what he wants. *_

Let him go. Seriously. What are you holding onto? He's minimizing his betrayal of you/your marriage. He won't accept responsibility for cheating on you. He won't commit to no contact, even telling you to your face he WILL contact her again. He's moving out and told you he needs to "figure out" what he needs.

Don't you see? 

He's not committed to you.

You can't bring someone out of the fog. You can't make him cut off all ties with her. You can't make him want to be in your marriage.

But what you can do is put your foot down:

_"Oh, you can't promise me no contact? Oh, you say you will contact her again? Oh, you need time to "figure" things out?

No problem. You know where the door is. I will not tolerate a marriage w/ someone who isn't committed to it and who makes no promise to end ties with the person they have betrayed me with. Non-negotiable. The buck stops here." _

That's it.


----------



## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

Wow. You are incredibly devoted and patient.
It took me about 4 months for the fog to completely lift.
It's not an excuse, but my wife did not help make the fog go away. The OW was her friend and they remained friends for about 6 months after our affair ended. She later told me that she did it on purpose to see if I would cheat again. I finally had to demand that she drop her friend or we were never going to heal. She was finally able to see what a horrible person the OW was (she stole from us) and dropped her.
I think that separating at this time would be devastating for your marriage. He needs constant contact with you to see what he has at home. If he is in an apartment, he's going to spend all of his time thinking about the OW and how to fix that.
Demand a No Contact letter and demand that he make no contact with the OW ever or you are finished. You need to get tough with him and set well defined boundaries and conditions or he is going to go back to her with better secrecy.
Do you know or have you spoken with her husband? If not, you should. He can help you keep tabs on the two of them.
Trust me, if they want to get back together, they will and they will be better at covering it up.
Your counselor should be on your team getting him to agree to NC.
You can read my stories and if you want, feel free to pm me. Some things that may make me too identifiable have been left out of the stories.

Also, keep faith that it can turn around. He can come back to you 100%. Two months is not a lot of time to heal, though. Be patient.


----------



## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

The only chance you have to break him out is to smack him with the consequences of staying - that being losing you. Even that may not be enough. You need to start the process of moving on - he's no where near ready to reconcile, remorse or taking ownership.


----------



## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

I also agree that separation is a bad idea, but he clearly wants to go.

In Not Just Friends you'll recall that there is a short section about how after an affair ends, the WS can still remain loyal, holding out hope. Ironically, it's the one-sidedness of it all that takes it to a level of obsession. It suggests something like I'm telling you below.

I wonder if you could work with OWH to get her to write an NC letter that says she is totally done, any prior promises notwithstanding. That rejection might help push him out of the fog (and likely into depression) but it seems he needs to hear it's truly over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

iheartlife said:


> I also agree that separation is a bad idea, but he clearly wants to go.
> 
> In Not Just Friends you'll recall that there is a short section about how after an affair ends, the WS can still remain loyal, holding out hope. Ironically, it's the one-sidedness of it all that takes it to a level of obsession. It suggets something like I'm telling you below.
> 
> ...


Good advice. The whole idea of "getting closure" is total BS - I tried it. I badly wanted a "good goodbye" and I tried hard to get one - almost had it to but every time my AP wouldn't turn it loose and tried to pull me back in - in the end it ended just like it did the night it all blew up - with a great big "F You." Affairs only end one way - badly.


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> The whole idea of "getting closure" is total BS


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

He is blamshifting the A on you and your dysfuntional marriage (his words). He is giving excuses. I would not separate if you want the marriage to work (imo). It is not good for him to be away. It is also not good for him to have a face to face goodbye. But when I told my wife NC she waited a few days and called him. They said the typical I love you, I will miss you, etc. It hurts when you go through this and like many of us we just sit back and stratch our heads in pain.

Hugs to you.


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

He's ''mentally'' cake eating, romatizing the whole thing. He's fully in the affair even with NC. Without the 3rd leg (you) affairs doen't survive (and he's still in it). The only chance for him to wake up is to remove yourself completely from the situation. Go dark, total NC with him, move on, make your own plans. He already knows your boundaires. And drop the MC; it's useless while in the fog.


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

You have to file.

That is the only thing that "might" break him out of it.

If it doesn`t you haven`t lost a thing really.


----------



## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

you do not have to go through with it but file for divorce. No contact means no marriage.

That should be a pretty good wake up call


----------



## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

*I want him to realize what a complete idiot he's been. *

:iagree: All us BSers have the same wish.


----------



## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

canttrusthim said:


> My WH had a six-month PA with a former co-worker that was discovered when he left that employer for a new job. He was very forthcoming with the gory details of the A. They "fell in love," so theirs was a highly emotional and intimate A too. Three to four days a week they got together after work. They were both nervous and scared, so never went to a motel. Instead they had all sorts of sexual contact in the back seat of her SUV.
> 
> It's been about two months since she went NC with him. He refuses to give me a NC promise. In fact, he tells me that he plans on contacting her one day to bring closure to their relationship. He said they had promised each other that they wouldn't end their relationship via phone or email, but they'd do so in person. (Oh please, gag me.)
> 
> ...


canttrusthim, the fog of an affair is a terrible thing indeed. Not only is your husband lost in it, you are in a fog bank all your own.

See, here's how fogged up you are.

Your husband had multiple sexual encounters with another woman while married to you. After everything has been blown open, he refuses to write a NC letter and plans to separate from you.

And your response to this set of circumstances is to be totally frustrated that he is still in the fog, and want him to realize what a complete idiot he has been.

Your husband cheated on you, and your focus is squarely on HIM.

Madame, you are beclouded.

I'm not sure exactly why you are on TAM.

If you want to vent about your situation and how worthless your cheating husband is, I sincerely sympathize with you, and I wish you a speedy recovery from the trauma that you have endured.

If you want advice, such as "how can you get a WS out of their fog," it's easy- determine exactly what you need your spouse to do to help you heal up from the betrayal, communicate it to them, and then file for divorce. If they fail to make every possible effort to repair the damage they have caused to the marriage, follow through on the divorce.

If this doesn't bust your husband out of his fog, then he doesn't love you any more, and you are the only one in a fog, after all.

If you want advice such as "how do I put this pain behind me in the quickest simplest manner," do the divorce thing described previously but skip all the stuff about input and repair activities from your spouse.


The question you ask is "can you get a WS out of their fog?"

The question I have is, 

He cheated on you. He won't go NC. He wants to move out on you. Why do you want to be married to someone like this?


----------



## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

I'm sorry, Just file. Stop going to marriage counseling. It is a total waste of time if your husbands attitude is as you have described. If the divorce card doesn't wake him up, move on.


----------



## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

I still think the WS is holding out hope for the OW. That has happened because it wasn't finally ended. Face-to-face contact would be disastrous. But if the OWH and the OP work together, they might be able to get the OW to write a letter laying finality out. It's the whole point of the NC letter. 

I may have missed something, but there has been no NC letter. We all know that NC letters are rarely exchanged from both sides--mostly because both BSs are rarely "up" on infidelity simultaneously. She can't get her husband to send one, so try to get one coming from the other direction.

This would have to be engineered in a way that the WS doesn't know the letter has been solicited from the OW via the OWH. That is tricky. But starting by reaching out to the OWH can't hurt. Feel out that person and see if they'd be amenable to forcing the issue with their spouse. Make clear the letter leaves no wiggle room, it must be very harsh and in her handwriting.

I wasn't born in a barn, I know that the most likely scenario is that the WS, still in massive denial, is going to say OWH held a gun to her head, or there's another message in the letter if you read every third word, or she would never say this, etc. etc. But I would give this one last shot before separation or divorce.

D is almost the inevitable bomb that is going to have to be dropped here. But I don't see why this suggestion shouldn't be tried first.


----------



## canttrusthim (Apr 22, 2012)

28 years ago while married to my first husband I was a WW. It really wasn't until reading books and visiting this forum in the last few months as a BW that I've understood how scripted an A is. I look back on my own A in a completely different light and realize how utterly stupid it was.

Since I've walked in his shoes, I have been able to empathize with my WH to a certain extent. I have told him everything about that A, including the whole "soul mates" feeling, and how looking back on it, it wasn't a real relationship but a fantasy. While he sees that As generally follow similar patterns and have similar characteristics, there is some piece of him that is holding out that his relationship was different. *sigh* Foggy-headed idiot.

Thank you for the suggestion of contacting the OWH. I emailed him last night and asked about having the OW send another NC letter. I had been in contact with the OWH as part of my discovery of the A, and he was very forthcoming and helpful with what he knew. I told the OWH that my WH still has ideas of contacting the OW one day because he wants closure, and that parts of him does believe that the NC letter the OW had sent several months ago was done under pressure from the OWH. So to protect them as a couple trying to heal, they may want to consider sending another NC letter to prevent my WH from unexpectedly dropping into their lives again.

I am sitting on the fence. On one hand I want to just cut my WH loose. He is not committed to me, and I don't know that he's ever been emotionally healthy enough to do so. On the other hand I want to feel that I've done all I could to save and resurrect my M before I give it up. When my WH moves out, I am anticipating a wonderful feeling of freedom as the burden of living with him gets lifted off my shoulders. I'm also anticipating that I won't really want him back.

Why am I on this forum? I guess it's to have other people shake me out of the fog I"ve been in...


----------



## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Sounds like you're trying to make penance for your affair to your first husband.


----------



## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

canttrusthim said:


> I am sitting on the fence. On one hand I want to just cut my WH loose. He is not committed to me, and I don't know that he's ever been emotionally healthy enough to do so. On the other hand I want to feel that I've done all I could to save and resurrect my M before I give it up. When my WH moves out, I am anticipating a wonderful feeling of freedom as the burden of living with him gets lifted off my shoulders. I'm also anticipating that I won't really want him back.
> 
> Why am I on this forum? I guess it's to have other people shake me out of the fog I"ve been in...


Then why go through this charade. I suggested an NC letter not realizing one had been sent already. He is surely not going to believe a second letter any more than the first. Check out that small section in Not Just Friends about one-sided obsession. It would take face to face contact for her rejection to likely work, and that is an awful idea for other reasons. I'm sorry to say I don't see him coming out of this 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Why did your first marriage end?


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

canttrusthim said:


> ... I am sitting on the fence. On one hand I want to just cut my WH loose. He is not committed to me, and I don't know that he's ever been emotionally healthy enough to do so. On the other hand I want to feel that I've done all I could to save and resurrect my M before I give it up. When my WH moves out, I am anticipating a wonderful feeling of freedom as the burden of living with him gets lifted off my shoulders. I'm also anticipating that I won't really want him back.
> 
> Why am I on this forum? I guess it's to have other people shake me out of the fog I"ve been in...


You know, just because he moves out doesn't mean that you are instantly "not married"--you're still married but just not in close proximity. And I remind you of this because it is absolutely, 100% reasonable for you to continue to work on yourself and learn again how to enjoy yourself and BE the "You" that you are meant to be...and just let your WH do the same. 

canttrusthim, a marriage relationship is not two individuals who "complete" each other or can't live without each other. It's two people who are completely individuals and completely able to stand on their own...who voluntarily CHOOSE to share themselves and their lives with each other. I love my Dear Hubby and would not want to be without him, but I absolutely could be! And he knows it and he also knows that every single day, I choose him. So if you two are apart, and you work on some of your own issues and become more and more the woman you are intended to be...that is all you can do: your side of the road. You can't clean up his side--he has to do that. For there to be a marriage relationship, your WH will have to decide to work on his own stuff, face himself and what he's done, and become the man he was intended to be. If you do your side and he chooses to NOT do his side, then you've done everything you can for your marriage. 

See what I mean?


----------

