# How to get over it?



## Francesco

Hello to everyone..
About 3 week's ago i saw my wife while she was getting out of a car that was from a coworker of hers. Didn't think much of it until i saw her face turn white when she saw me! Since i work a job that gives me little free time (except on weekends) she wasn't expecting my arrival where she works. 
After that episode i played dumb, pretending that i had no suspects. Gave her a hug and a kiss and after a while left without asking.
So i decided to keep a close eye on her behavior just to see if i was overreacting about my thoughts ... 
Nothing seemed to be out of place... good sex, great family nights with kids, etc.... We dont go out much cause we enjoy staying together the 4 of us. Must say she is a great mom.
Then last week I decided to repeat the surprise at her job during her lunch break, While i was waiting outside the building she came out with that same coworker... so i just stood and watched. She got in is car and left, and i followed them thinking to my self how nuts this is..
I lost them cause of the heavy traffic, so i decide to go back at her work and wait for them there. They came back with 10 minutes of delay (the break is 1 hour), waited till she came out and popped up behind her with an HELLO LOVE! The embarrassment from them was clear.
I presented myself wanting to know his name, and then asked
what was going on. They tried to play it cool saying that they had gone on lunch like usually. So Without any proofs i had to play it dumb again also this time, and pretended that it was ok. Also to not seem like a freak. 

A little back story:
We are happily (or i thought so) for over 17 years, and we have 2 wonderful kids d14 and s7 both very smart and well educated.
Never had serious problems in our marriage. I was her first and only (never even kissed before) and this is what starts to make me wonder.... We live in Italy. 

Question: Do I have a reason to be paranoid? After all we are a great family unit, and she always tells me how much she loves me. Am i getting obsessed?


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## badmemory

Francesco said:


> Do I have a reason to be paranoid? Am i getting obsessed?


It's not being paranoid if this is what it looks like; nor obsessive. Why would she be gone only 10 minutes for lunch? That's easily enough time for sex if they can't keep their hands off each other. You have every reason to suspect the worst.

Work place affairs are harder to get evidence on, because they have such easy access to each other. But, often they will try to communicate to each other at home.

My advice is to step back like everything is fine, and discreetly monitor her until you get the smoking gun. Spyware on her cell, keylogger on her computer, VAR in her car. Pull her cell phone records and check them for suspicious calls and texts. See if you can get a friend who's car she is not familiar with to follow them at lunch break or hire a PI if you can afford it.

If you don't catch her within 2 or three weeks, confront her anyway and tell her you won't accept her going to lunch with a male co-worker; but keep monitoring her for a few more weeks. Your confrontation may prompt an attempt for her to communicate with him.

My guess is that if you make yourself an expert on monitoring her (you can get a lot of help here), you'll catch her within a week or two. And I'll say it again; you have every reason to do this.

Sorry you're here.


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## Nucking Futs

Francesco said:


> Hello to everyone..
> About 3 week's ago i saw my wife while she was getting out of a car that was from a coworker of hers. Didn't think much of it until i saw her face turn white when she saw me! Since i work a job that gives me little free time (except on weekends) she wasn't expecting my arrival where she works.
> After that episode i played dumb, pretending that i had no suspects. Gave her a hug and a kiss and after a while left without asking.
> So i decided to keep a close eye on her behavior just to see if i was overreacting about my thoughts ...
> Nothing seemed to be out of place... good sex, great family nights with kids, etc.... We dont go out much cause we enjoy staying together the 4 of us. Must say she is a great mom.
> Then last week I decided to repeat the surprise at her job during her lunch break, While i was waiting outside the building she came out with that same coworker... so i just stood and watched. She got in is car and left, and i followed them thinking to my self how nuts this is..
> I lost them cause of the heavy traffic, so i decide to go back at her work and wait for them there. They came back with 10 minutes of delay (the break is 1 hour), waited till she came out and popped up behind her with an HELLO LOVE! The embarrassment from them was clear.
> I presented myself wanting to know his name, and then asked
> what was going on. They tried to play it cool saying that they had gone on lunch like usually. So Without any proofs i had to play it dumb again also this time, and pretended that it was ok. Also to not seem like a freak.
> 
> A little back story:
> We are happily (or i thought so) for over 17 years, and we have 2 wonderful kids d14 and s7 both very smart and well educated.
> Never had serious problems in our marriage. I was her first and only (never even kissed before) and this is what starts to make me wonder.... We live in Italy.
> 
> Question: Do I have a reason to be paranoid? After all we are a great family unit, and she always tells me how much she loves me. Am i getting obsessed?


So far, from what you've posted, I'd say she's having lunch with a co-worker. You don't mention anything else that I would consider a red flag.

If you're gut is telling you there's something going on you can click the link in my signature for a thread about how to investigate your spouse.


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## Nucking Futs

badmemory said:


> It's not being paranoid if this is what it looks like; nor obsessive. *Why would she be gone only 10 minutes for lunch?* You have every reason to suspect the worst.
> 
> Work place affairs are harder to get evidence on, because they have such easy access to each other. But, often they will try to communicate to each other at home.
> 
> My advice is to step back like everything is fine, and discreetly monitor her until you get the smoking gun. Spyware on her cell, keylogger on her computer, VAR in her car. Pull her cell phone records and check them for suspicious calls and texts. See if you can get a friend who's car she is not familiar with to follow them at lunch break or hire a PI if you can afford it.
> 
> If you don't catch her within 2 or three weeks, confront her anyway and tell her you won't accept her going to lunch with a male co-worker; but keep monitoring her for a few more weeks.
> 
> My guess is that if you make yourself an expert on monitoring her (you can get a lot of help here), you'll catch her within a week or two. And I'll say it again; you have every reason to do this.
> 
> Sorry you're here.


I read that as getting back with 10 minutes left in her lunch break, not that they had only been gone 10 minutes. I admit that what he typed would be more directly interpreted your way but it's not what I got from it.


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## italianjob

Nucking Futs said:


> I read that as getting back with 10 minutes left in her lunch break, not that they had only been gone 10 minutes. I admit that what he typed would be more directly interpreted your way but it's not what I got from it.


He meant 10 minutes late, 10 mins after the break should have ended... I think


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## Francesco

Nucking Futs said:


> I read that as getting back with 10 minutes left in her lunch break, not that they had only been gone 10 minutes. I admit that what he typed would be more directly interpreted your way but it's not what I got from it.


Yes, 10 minutes of delay on 1 hour of break, so excluding the drive they where gone alone a good 45/50 minutes. Sorry my English is rusty.


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## Francesco

badmemory said:


> It's not being paranoid if this is what it looks like; nor obsessive. Why would she be gone only 10 minutes for lunch? That's easily enough time for sex if they can't keep their hands off each other. You have every reason to suspect the worst.
> 
> Work place affairs are harder to get evidence on, because they have such easy access to each other. But, often they will try to communicate to each other at home.
> 
> My advice is to step back like everything is fine, and discreetly monitor her until you get the smoking gun. Spyware on her cell, keylogger on her computer, VAR in her car. Pull her cell phone records and check them for suspicious calls and texts. See if you can get a friend who's car she is not familiar with to follow them at lunch break or hire a PI if you can afford it.
> 
> If you don't catch her within 2 or three weeks, confront her anyway and tell her you won't accept her going to lunch with a male co-worker; but keep monitoring her for a few more weeks. Your confrontation may prompt an attempt for her to communicate with him.
> 
> My guess is that if you make yourself an expert on monitoring her (you can get a lot of help here), you'll catch her within a week or two. And I'll say it again; you have every reason to do this.
> 
> Sorry you're here.



thank you for the tips.... i was thinking only to try again going at her some time this week. But i will for sure check her cell and computer.


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## badmemory

Nucking Futs said:


> So far, from what you've posted, I'd say she's having lunch with a co-worker. You don't mention anything else that I would consider a red flag.


Other than her reaction to being seen by him. Certainly not enough to accuse her of cheating, but it does cross a marital boundary that indicates further monitoring is advised. 

And even if that's all it is, that may be only all it is - for now.


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## brendanoco

Francesco said:


> Yes, 10 minutes of delay on 1 hour of break, so excluding the drive they where gone alone a good 45/50 minutes. Sorry my English is rusty.


have you noticed a change in her behaviour?


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## badmemory

Francesco said:


> Yes, 10 minutes of delay on 1 hour of break, so excluding the drive they where gone alone a good 45/50 minutes. Sorry my English is rusty.


I see. Doesn't change my opinion though. Check to see if she put the lunch or other lunches on a credit card.


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## harrybrown

Her actions and white face should give you all you need to know.

Tell her to choose, the family or the OM. She would have to stop working with him and stop all contact.


Otherwise , she can go live with him and leave the family behind.


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## Francesco

This just seems very ugly to do.... if i do find more I am not a type that will get over it.


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## italianjob

Francesco said:


> Hello to everyone..
> About 3 week's ago i saw my wife while she was getting out of a car that was from a coworker of hers. Didn't think much of it until i saw her face turn white when she saw me! Since i work a job that gives me little free time (except on weekends) she wasn't expecting my arrival where she works.
> After that episode i played dumb, pretending that i had no suspects. Gave her a hug and a kiss and after a while left without asking.
> So i decided to keep a close eye on her behavior just to see if i was overreacting about my thoughts ...
> Nothing seemed to be out of place... good sex, great family nights with kids, etc.... We dont go out much cause we enjoy staying together the 4 of us. Must say she is a great mom.
> Then last week I decided to repeat the surprise at her job during her lunch break, While i was waiting outside the building she came out with that same coworker... so i just stood and watched. She got in is car and left, and i followed them thinking to my self how nuts this is..
> I lost them cause of the heavy traffic, so i decide to go back at her work and wait for them there. They came back with 10 minutes of delay (the break is 1 hour), waited till she came out and popped up behind her with an HELLO LOVE! The embarrassment from them was clear.
> I presented myself wanting to know his name, and then asked
> what was going on. They tried to play it cool saying that they had gone on lunch like usually. So Without any proofs i had to play it dumb again also this time, and pretended that it was ok. Also to not seem like a freak.
> 
> A little back story:
> We are happily (or i thought so) for over 17 years, and we have 2 wonderful kids d14 and s7 both very smart and well educated.
> Never had serious problems in our marriage. I was her first and only (never even kissed before) and this is what starts to make me wonder.... We live in Italy.
> 
> Question: Do I have a reason to be paranoid? After all we are a great family unit, and she always tells me how much she loves me. Am i getting obsessed?



Hi, dear "connazionale"!
The "turning white" reaction is a big red flag, IMO. You need to investigate further...
- Are there other red flags? Is she using her phone and texting more than usual? Does she keeps the phone locked a close to her at all times? Have there been changes in her habits (different timetables, nights out with coworkers or friends more often than usual, differences in sexual behavior)?
- Try to make innocent questions about her spending lunch with the same coworker and see how she reacts...


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## Francesco

brendanoco said:


> have you noticed a change in her behaviour?



This is what really bothers me!!! NO... SHE IS ALWAYS the same mother and wife as of our married life! But the way she reacted when i first saw them and of all her coworkers always with the same person really lights my fantasy!


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## ConanHub

Her reaction and your gut tell you a lot.

Something is probably rotten. So let's say she's getting her pipes cleaned by this guy. What are you planning on doing about it?

Knowing ahead of time what you will do and having the plan in place is as important as finding out for sure your wife is cheating.

My wife and I have boundaries about this sort of thing. I catch her taking off from work with a male co worker and there would be hell to pay right there.

How long has your wife been hopping in other men's cars and keeping it a secret from you? If you have any friends that she doesn't know then maybe they could help you look in on her or catch where she is going with her "friend".

Can you afford an investigator?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badmemory

When a spouse crosses a marital boundary like this, there's a fine line between knowing when to confront; whether to wait and see if you can catch her or confronting immediately.

It's just my opinion, but giving the monitoring a chance for a few weeks before confronting is the best compromise in a situation like this.


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## Francesco

italianjob said:


> Hi, dear "connazionale"!
> The "turning white" reaction is a big red flag, IMO. You need to investigate further...
> - Are there other red flags? Is she using her phone and texting more than usual? Does she keeps the phone locked a close to her at all times? Have there been changes in her habits (different timetables, nights out with coworkers or friends more often than usual, differences in sexual behavior)?
> - Try to make innocent questions about her spending lunch with the same coworker and see how she reacts...


Italiano anche te?
The only other red flag is when at night for less then an hour she posts and checks out facebook.... but i have her contact and she nevers puts post or likes on things that might be alarming. Her phone is never locked, and she leaves it anywhere. Like i said.... if it wasn't for this coworker that gets to my 6th sense i would not be so paranoid.
I actually told her the other night why she be having lunch with always the same person and not with others, and she just laughed at that saying that she knew that i was going to ask...
What she said was that they are working on some papers that need to be done very soon, so thats why they have lunch together. 
I think i should cool off for a while and wait


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## Francesco

ConanHub said:


> Her reaction and your gut tell you a lot.
> 
> Something is probably rotten. So let's say she's getting her pipes cleaned by this guy. What are you planning on doing about it?
> 
> Knowing ahead of time what you will do and having the plan in place is as important as finding out for sure your wife is cheating.
> 
> My wife and I have boundaries about this sort of thing. I catch her taking off from work with a male co worker and there would be hell to pay right there.
> 
> How long has your wife been hopping in other men's cars and keeping it a secret from you? If you have any friends that she doesn't know then maybe they could help you look in on her or catch where she is going with her "friend".
> 
> Can you afford an investigator?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly my point! Why not tell me about it?
If there is something rotten going on, for sure i will not handle it with forgiveness and she knows it... and as i know of, this is the only coworker or man in general where she gets in a car with alone..


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## italianjob

Francesco said:


> Italiano anche te?
> The only other red flag is when at night for less then an hour she posts and checks out facebook.... but i have her contact and she nevers puts post or likes on things that might be alarming. Her phone is never locked, and she leaves it anywhere. Like i said.... if it wasn't for this coworker that gets to my 6th sense i would not be so paranoid.
> I actually told her the other night why she be having lunch with always the same person and not with others, and she just laughed at that saying that she knew that i was going to ask...
> What she said was that they are working on some papers that need to be done very soon, so thats why they have lunch together.
> I think i should cool off for a while and wait


Si, italiano anch'io 

If there are no other red flags, it might be innocent, at least at the moment, but I think that getting too close with coworkers of the opposite sex is not a good thing, and even if there's nothing now, it may be in development. You should keep close watch on her habits in the next few weeks, and check if they're still having lunch together after current work assignement is done.


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## ConanHub

She knew you were going to ask because when you caught her, and you did catch her, her mind started racing to come up with explanations for her situation.

If you had reacted angry, suspicious and confrontational when she first turned white, you probably would have seen some interesting reactions and studder stepping from both of them.

But if she has crossed no boundary in your marriage by going alone with men you have no idea about then enjoy.

I believe it to be piss poor boundaries however.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Gut feeling is often right. This your male selfish gene expressing itself.

Do not confront or question anymore. Keep a poker face.

Is your wife on Facebook? Is OM a friend. Do you know his name? Check her other colleagues friends to track him down. Figure out if he is married.

Check your phone records. Does your wife have work cell? Computer?

Your wife may simply eat lunch with him and flirt, but her white face is a red flag that she harbors inappropriate feelings.

Read MMSLP. 

Do you smoke? Are you overweight?

Engage in active listening.


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## ConanHub

How would your wife like it if she caught you going alone with a woman you were keeping secret from her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma

harrybrown said:


> Tell her to choose, the family or the OM. She would have to stop working with him and stop all contact.


Don't ya think maybe he should hold off on this until he even knows if there is an OM?

Or that she's cheating at all....maybe?


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## Francesco

ConanHub said:


> She knew you were going to ask because when you caught her, and you did catch her, her mind started racing to come up with explanations for her situation.
> 
> If you had reacted angry, suspicious and confrontational when she first turned white, you probably would have seen some interesting reactions and studder stepping from both of them.
> 
> But if she has crossed no boundary in your marriage by going alone with men you have no idea about then enjoy.
> 
> I believe it to be piss poor boundaries however.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you are right.
And yes, it is very not correct the way she acted, but since we have a wonderful family and life I just cant understand..


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## BetrayedDad

My spouse had a workplace affair and they are especially difficult to catch. She used to sneak out daily at lunch to have sex in her bosses car. They would communicate through office email and of course face to face in the office. There was rarely any communication outside work except maybe on the drive to and from. She put up a good front trying to act normal for six months. 

If your gut is screaming something is wrong then you can be damn sure it is. It's not appropriate for a male and female coworker to take frequent solo lunches together period. I'm sorry to tell you but more likely than not they are having a physical affair. Put a Voice Activated Recorder in her car and see if you can recover her text messages from her cell phone. My Ex used to delete hers before she came home but never kept her phone locked so she didn't arouse suspicion. 

Please, no more work place surprise visits until you get concrete proof. You want them to get sloppy. If you keep showing up then she will be more cautious. Follow them but don't let them know your there. Don't say a word about it but be vigilant. I'm full-blooded italian too by the way. Sorry you are going through this.


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## italianjob

Francesco said:


> I think you are right.
> And yes, it is very not correct the way she acted, but since we have a wonderful family and life I just cant understand..


Sadly, affairs happen even in wonderful families. Sometimes people that had one or very few sexual partners in their life enter a sort of "midlife crisis" around your age.
If you live in Northern Italy, or in a big city, I know it's not uncommon for opposite sex coworkers to have lunch together. It doesn't necessarily mean that there is already something going on, but it's a very dangerous situation, a high number of affairs happen in circumstances like that. You need to keep an eye over this, if you can afford it hire a PI. And even if you find that nothing's on you should ask your wife to stop going out to lunch with male coworkers on a One-to-One basis.


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## cdbaker

ConanHub said:


> How would your wife like it if she caught you going alone with a woman you were keeping secret from her?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe I missed something, but how is she keeping this co-worker a secret from him? It sounds like they decided to go to lunch together a few times and took his car. I frequently go to lunch with co-workers, both opposite and same-sex, and I usually just ride with them because my car is small and uncomfortable. I don't see any boundary problems with that.

Now if she has adultery in her past, then yes, I would say that this is a boundary issue, but everything the OP has said so far is that they've been happily married for many years, with no recent behavior or relational changes between them.


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## cdbaker

I've got to say, so far the only "red flag" I've seen in this story (which I'd really say is more of a "pink flag", lol, because it's not at all conclusive) is how you describe her appearing to be shocked or turning white when she saw you at her work after her lunch break. I agree with Tacoma.

I don't think there is anything wrong with a spouse who has no prior history of adultery going out to lunch with an opposite sex co-worker, or riding in his car when doing so. Her surprise could also be easily explained by your job circumstances that you described, which is that you are never able to surprise your wife at her work, so it makes sense that this would be quite unexpected for her.

Since an affair often accompanies a number of other indicators that thus far, you haven't identified even while you are looking carefully for them, I'd have to conclude that there is probably nothing going on here. They say "where there is smoke, there is usually fire" but I can't even see smoke here.

So in my view, any in depth snooping on her would be an unwarranted violation of her privacy and trust with you. If she's not doing anything wrong, as I suspect, she would probably be quite unhappy if she knew that you were sneaking around checking her phone, computer, considering a private investigator or audio recorder, etc. I would only suggest continuing to pay close attention to any changes in behavior or attitude in her, but that's about as far as I would say is warranted here.


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## MachoMcCoy

The reaction to seeing her get out of the car is huge. If he was suspicious and looking for something, he could have interpereted ANY reaction to be guilt. But when he expects a smile and "oh, hi honey" and gets a deer in the headlights look instead, I'm going with "GUILTY"!

Hire a PI (Private Investigator)


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## ConanHub

cdbaker said:


> Maybe I missed something, but how is she keeping this co-worker a secret from him? It sounds like they decided to go to lunch together a few times and took his car. I frequently go to lunch with co-workers, both opposite and same-sex, and I usually just ride with them because my car is small and uncomfortable. I don't see any boundary problems with that.
> 
> Now if she has adultery in her past, then yes, I would say that this is a boundary issue, but everything the OP has said so far is that they've been happily married for many years, with no recent behavior or relational changes between them.


You did miss something but that is ok. It is an obvious boundary for OP. He was surprised, unpleasantly, by catching her coming out of another man's car. She was also surprised, unpleasantly, by being caught by her husband.

You may be ok with your wife going alone for over an hour regularly with a man you have no idea about and your wife may be fine with you doing it but hopefully that has been an established boundary.

That very clearly is not the case here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

cdbaker said:


> I've got to say, so far the only "red flag" I've seen in this story (which I'd really say is more of a "pink flag", lol, because it's not at all conclusive) is how you describe her appearing to be shocked or turning white when she saw you at her work after her lunch break. I agree with Tacoma.
> 
> I don't think there is anything wrong with a spouse who has no prior history of adultery going out to lunch with an opposite sex co-worker, or riding in his car when doing so. Her surprise could also be easily explained by your job circumstances that you described, which is that you are never able to surprise your wife at her work, so it makes sense that this would be quite unexpected for her.
> 
> Since an affair often accompanies a number of other indicators that thus far, you haven't identified even while you are looking carefully for them, I'd have to conclude that there is probably nothing going on here. They say "where there is smoke, there is usually fire" but I can't even see smoke here.
> 
> So in my view, any in depth snooping on her would be an unwarranted violation of her privacy and trust with you. If she's not doing anything wrong, as I suspect, she would probably be quite unhappy if she knew that you were sneaking around checking her phone, computer, considering a private investigator or audio recorder, etc. I would only suggest continuing to pay close attention to any changes in behavior or attitude in her, but that's about as far as I would say is warranted here.


Again, your boundaries are obviously different than OPs. You will put up with far more than most. I remember your story.

Most are not wired like you. Your success with your relationship was not very desirable to many but you were mostly ok with it.

You do understand that your POV is not standard?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BetrayedDad

Innocent people don't turn white when their husband's catch them coming out of a coworker's car. Funny how it seems to be this same guy over and over. Trust your gut OP and investigate further. You deserve to know if something is going on.

If nothing comes of it then god bless. I would love to be wrong and I'm sure so would OP. Apologize for your suspicions and move on with life. But to advise him to turn a blind eye seems dangerously niave to me. Clearly, there is SOME cause for concern.


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## BobSimmons

What kind of phone does she have? 

Can you use a phone tracker to see where they go during lunch, It will most likely be the same familiar places for them. 

Then you can show up and see what they are up to.


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## HarryDoyle

Unfortunately for me I assumed that not much could happen during my WW's short lunch break. I pretty much knew where she was the rest of the time. Boy was I wrong! Her and the POSOM would take separate cars and meet up at a friend's apartment, and not for lunch either!  It was only once a week or so and there was no way I would have ever figured it out. Except for the thousands of texts between the two. So smart and yet so stupid at the same time. :scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:

Just remember, anything is possible, no matter how bizarre it may seem.


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## Francesco

LongWalk said:


> Gut feeling is often right. This your male selfish gene expressing itself.
> 
> Do not confront or question anymore. Keep a poker face.
> 
> Is your wife on Facebook? Is OM a friend. Do you know his name? Check her other colleagues friends to track him down. Figure out if he is married.
> 
> Check your phone records. Does your wife have work cell? Computer?
> 
> Your wife may simply eat lunch with him and flirt, but her white face is a red flag that she harbors inappropriate feelings.
> 
> Read MMSLP.
> 
> Do you smoke? Are you overweight?
> 
> Engage in active listening.


yes i agree, i will do like you wrote. Yes i smoke, why?
No, we are both in great shape, I'm 47 she is 40 but we both look like if we have 10 years less and we both are average weight


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## Francesco

Locke.Stratos said:


> Francesco, I think that waiting to do this on your own might be a little too much for you.
> 
> Would it be possible for you to hire a professional investigator to follow them on your behalf?
> 
> A professional would be more skilled and suited to the task and their proof would be tangible and undeniable.



I can have a friend who can help, but one of the reasons why i am on a outside website is because i would first prefer to keep it only to me without involving nobody from my area


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## Dogbert

Oh lookie. The OMs car tire has a flat. Ah! No lunchie munchie with married woman today. So sad.


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## ConanHub

Dogbert said:


> Oh lookie. The OMs car tire has a flat. Ah! No lunchie munchie with married woman today. So sad.


LOL!!!&#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56840;&#55357;&#56840;&#55357;&#56840;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Francesco

very valid points.... many are what i have thought. My plan will be to keep my cool and act as nothing is wrong, then i will check out again at her work with the help of a close friend of mine. He has a motorbike and in the traffic there is no problems.
In the meantime i will be more cautious with controlling better the situation. thanks again and i will update soon...


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## Q tip

A continuous lunch partner is an issue. Her response seeing you should have been innocent surprise and smile, not this. His should have been somewhat indifferent

Possible nothing's happened. Possible something might happen. Possible its ongoing.

From the small amount of info, chances are: nothing is 25%, might is 20%, ongoing is 20%, 35% is just plain unknown.

In your area, are couples lunches between married people considered dates or just a common occurrence. 

For me... I typically try to bring several to lunch to avoid issues and have a better time. One on one does happen, but rare. Usually guy with guy and rarely guy/girl. But it does happen. I'll tell my spouse if this happens. I had lunch with so and so. Went to location kind of topic. Spouse does the same. 

Communication in marriage is ever so important. Check bank withdrawals, credit cards statements for restaurants. While you soft confronted them, you could have asked where she went lunch.


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## G.J.

Francesco said:


> Italiano anche te?
> The only other red flag is when at night for less then an hour she posts and checks out facebook.... but i have her contact and she nevers puts post or likes on things that might be alarming. Her phone is never locked, and she leaves it anywhere. Like i said.... if it wasn't for this coworker that gets to my 6th sense i would not be so paranoid.
> I actually told her the other night why she be having lunch with always the same person and not with others, and she just laughed at that saying that she knew that i was going to ask...
> What she said was that they are working on some papers that need to be done very soon, so thats why they have lunch together.
> I think i should cool off for a while and wait


Hi Francesco
Go into her FB account and request the archive, its under security..it takes a few minutes and 
is sent to her email...go to her email and unzip the file it will show you all her chats....unless 
she has purposely deleted some permanently which if she doesn't know about she may not have

Also follow her again at dinner but don't talk to her, better still your friend and it is better to tell him

Find out where the guy lives (may have to follow him home) and if he is married (FB of wifes) or ask some one in passing at her works or again friend with the motorbike

If she is Italian she knows she should not be going out to dinner with a co worker period unless she was brought up out side Italy (well no Sicilian girl would)

good luck


----------



## Sports Fan

Where there is smoke there is fire. They must of been enjoying each others company a lot if they arrived back to work 10 minutes late. I would safely assume that they are up to no good.

At the very least you have an Emotional Affair going on, but i wouldn't be surprised if it has already turned physical.

Definately she has crossed a boundary just how far you will have to play it calm and catch her out.

If possible install a Voice Activated recorder strapped underneath her car seat. Cheaters love to talk in the car. Definately have a trusted friend follow them on their lunch break.

Either way have a plan of what you will do if the worst is confirmed. I'm sorry you have found yourself here.


----------



## workindad

OP, I think you have a right to be concerned. At this point I would do two things and definitely not confront her.

1. get a VAR- stick it in her car.
2. place a key logger on the pc she uses at home.
3. check for a while.

Hopefully it is nothing. If you do the above yo will know soon enough.


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## Francesco

Thanks to every one for the reply's, I'm reading all of it.
Now let me explane why i am going nuts.....

When we first meet over 22 years ago (she was 18, i was 24) she was that typical girl who was to much serious... one that would drive away many guys who where looking only for fun. She was a classic home and church girl, never had a boyfriend and the few that tried to be with her gave up after seeing that she wasn't easy.
So when i first meet her i had just finished my military service and immediately realized that she was the one! 
Long story short she excepted to date me after 6 MONTHS of courtship!!!
And our first kiss happened after 5 dates! 
After almost 5 years together we got married (1997) and in 1999 our first girl was born. All was perfect, we did everything on our own without help of our family's since they have health issues that need serious medical attention. But we where making it fine. Then in 2007 our 2° son was born and we bought a new house and up to now we managed together to be a happy family!
No nights out unless all 4 of us are together, i only go out on Wednesday evenings to play soccer with my friends, and many times she comes along with the kids and other wifes with there kids to watch.
We always go every weekend to our parents house (once to hers e once to mine) and every summer we go on vacation all 4 of us. 
In a few words i thought we had it all.

Now this happens and i am really conflicted about it.... could it be possible? 
Cant put a var in a car cause she goes to work on feet (about 20 minutes away) and only uses the car to take the kids at the swimming pool twice a week. The other times i drive it.
Dont know nobody that can keep an eye on her at work cause they are in good relationships and if i try to ask she will be the first to know.

This evening i have my soccer game and also that good friend of mine that plays, we know each other since we where 14, he is the brother i never had. I was thinking to ask him a favor.... i already know that he wont say no but also that he will be a bit shocked at my request. I will ask him if he would go at lunch time and check out the situation. My wife knows that that day i cant pop up do to my work...... who knows.

Also i checked her cell yesterday night when she was in the shower.... nothing! Then my s7 came along and said "what you doing with moms cell dad?" "Calling grandma cause mine is dead" ----- i felt like xxxxxx right after!


----------



## ConanHub

Francesco said:


> Thanks to every one for the reply's, I'm reading all of it.
> Now let me explane why i am going nuts.....
> 
> When we first meet over 22 years ago (she was 18, i was 24) she was that typical girl who was to much serious... one that would drive away many guys who where looking only for fun. She was a classic home and church girl, never had a boyfriend and the few that tried to be with her gave up after seeing that she wasn't easy.
> So when i first meet her i had just finished my military service and immediately realized that she was the one!
> Long story short she excepted to date me after 6 MONTHS of courtship!!!
> And our first kiss happened after 5 dates!
> After almost 5 years together we got married (1997) and in 1999 our first girl was born. All was perfect, we did everything on our own without help of our family's since they have health issues that need serious medical attention. But we where making it fine. Then in 2007 our 2° son was born and we bought a new house and up to now we managed together to be a happy family!
> No nights out unless all 4 of us are together, i only go out on Wednesday evenings to play soccer with my friends, and many times she comes along with the kids and other wifes with there kids to watch.
> We always go every weekend to our parents house (once to hers e once to mine) and every summer we go on vacation all 4 of us.
> In a few words i thought we had it all.
> 
> Now this happens and i am really conflicted about it.... could it be possible?
> Cant put a var in a car cause she goes to work on feet (about 20 minutes away) and only uses the car to take the kids at the swimming pool twice a week. The other times i drive it.
> Dont know nobody that can keep an eye on her at work cause they are in good relationships and if i try to ask she will be the first to know.
> 
> This evening i have my soccer game and also that good friend of mine that plays, we know each other since we where 14, he is the brother i never had. I was thinking to ask him a favor.... i already know that he wont say no but also that he will be a bit shocked at my request. I will ask him if he would go at lunch time and check out the situation. My wife knows that that day i cant pop up do to my work...... who knows.
> 
> Also i checked her cell yesterday night when she was in the shower.... nothing! Then my s7 came along and said "what you doing with moms cell dad?" "Calling grandma cause mine is dead" ----- i felt like xxxxxx right after!


Hang in there brother. Have you told her you don't like her to go to lunch with men you don't know alone? Have you told her you didn't like seeing her get out if the strangers car and really didn't like how she turned pale when she saw you?

Can you share that your trust has been damaged by her actions and you are angry too?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Francesco

CONAN, I think she understood it immediately and that was also the reason she turned white, i/we never delt with this situation before.... never gave each other reason's.

What i think is that since she is 40 and had only me in her life (that i hope of) she likes the attention.... but in the past it never happened! She is very attractive, when she was younger many told her that she looked like Sharon Stone, for me she's even better!!
As for me i was already independent at 14. when i met her at 24 i had already a full baggage of experiences.... traveled alot in Europe and also the US, so thats why i fell for her as soon as i met her.... not for her looks but for her ideals. And since we where total opposites, thats also why it took me 6 months for a date! 

Can she start only now to want new things in life? now that are kids are self-sufficient? thats what i think.... but you are correct. I need to talk to her abaut this, but not before my friend does that favor for me....


----------



## Q tip

Oh, she has no car at work and gets a ride. Less of an issue, but still. She needs to go in a group, not one on one.


----------



## wmn1

ConanHub said:


> Again, your boundaries are obviously different than OPs. You will put up with far more than most. I remember your story.
> 
> Most are not wired like you. Your success with your relationship was not very desirable to many but you were mostly ok with it.
> 
> You do understand that your POV is not standard?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree, what is acceptable to Baker is not acceptable to most. The reaction was not one of surprise and g;lee that he was there. It was an 'oh ****e' reaction which justifies his gut feeling and the need to look into it more


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> Oh, she has no car at work and gets a ride. Less of an issue, but still. She needs to go in a group, not one on one.


yes, but others have cars.... and also many female friends. Besides the fact that the area has many places where to go eat...


----------



## italianjob

Francesco said:


> CONAN, I think she understood it immediately and that was also the reason she turned white, i/we never delt with this situation before.... never gave each other reason's.
> 
> What i think is that since she is 40 and had only me in her life (that i hope of) she likes the attention.... but in the past it never happened! She is very attractive, when she was younger many told her that she looked like Sharon Stone, for me she's even better!!
> As for me i was already independent at 14. when i met her at 24 i had already a full baggage of experiences.... traveled alot in Europe and also the US, so thats why i fell for her as soon as i met her.... not for her looks but for her ideals. And since we where total opposites, thats also why it took me 6 months for a date!
> 
> *Can she start only now to want new things in life? now that are kids are self-sufficient?* thats what i think.... but you are correct. I need to talk to her abaut this, but not before my friend does that favor for me....


Well, Francesco, she just turned 40, sometimes people think about their past when that happen and some feel they missed out on the partying when they were Young. Maybe there are younger girls in her office who party around and she feels their influence... Anyway, it's not that uncommon.

The peculiarity of your situation is that there is a HUGE red flag (her reaction when she saw you) but, by what you say, no other clue or symptom of something wrong. I think this could be something "in the making": her coworker sensed that she was in a weak moment and began to make his moves, she's thinking of taking it further, hence the "guilty" look.

A one off "spying session" by your friend will be useful only if the affair is already on, but won't lead anywhere if there's a situation like that. You would need to know if lunch with the OM happens every day and Always one on one, how they behave when they're having lunch (romance or not), and things like that so you should try and watch them for a week or so (IDK, maybe a PI could be more useful, if you can afford it)


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> Well, Francesco, she just turned 40, sometimes people think about their past when that happen and some feel they missed out on the partying when they were Young. Maybe there are younger girls in her office who party around and she feels their influence... Anyway, it's not that uncommon.
> 
> The peculiarity of your situation is that there is a HUGE red flag (her reaction when she saw you) but, by what you say, no other clue or symptom of something wrong. I think this could be something "in the making": her coworker sensed that she was in a weak moment and began to make his moves, she's thinking of taking it further, hence the "guilty" look.
> 
> A one off "spying session" by your friend will be useful only if the affair is already on, but won't lead anywhere if there's a situation like that. You would need to know if lunch with the OM happens every day and Always one on one, how they behave when they're having lunch (romance or not), and things like that so you should try and watch them for a week or so (IDK, maybe a PI could be more useful, if you can afford it)



mi hai letto la mente!
That is what i think also...
the friend of mine is far better then a pi.... if he smells smoke he will for sure find the fire. We barely ask each other favors, so when it happens we do it good! in about 3 hours we will meet, play soccer, then go for a glass of wine.... the 2 of us.
will update when i get back home


----------



## cdbaker

ConanHub said:


> Again, your boundaries are obviously different than OPs. You will put up with far more than most. I remember your story.
> 
> Most are not wired like you. Your success with your relationship was not very desirable to many but you were mostly ok with it.
> 
> You do understand that your POV is not standard?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, perhaps. Sure my own story is pretty far "out there" and rare and all that. If anything though, I think I'm probably more prone to suspect foul play and keep an open eye for it than most, given my history. Not less. Heck, my ears perk up whenever my wife even mentions the name of a man I don't know, and I often will casually ask who he is. (Like if she tells me a story from work, about how her and "Mark" played a little joke on a co-worker.)

So to clarify... Yeah if my wife were regularly going out with the same guy/co-worker for lunch on an ongoing basis, I would certainly be somewhat concerned and want to look into it. I just didn't see OP saying that it was a continuous thing. At first, all he reported was that she appeared surprised when she saw him at her work mid-day, while getting out of someone's car. That can be completely, totally innocent. Her surprise is easily and understandably explainable.

It being the same exact situation a week later... yeah that calls for him doing what he did. Inquiring as to who he was, and asking what they were doing? (in a non-accusatory way, yet.) That would raise my suspicion a bit. At that point, I'd certainly be observing her behavior and conduct a bit closer, but with her background of having never cheated (to his knowledge), their relationship and her behavior not having any noticeable shifts recently, and being really no other red flags aside from the surprised look and lunch with the same guy twice in two weeks, I think installing spy software on her devices or hiring a PI is a disproportionate response.

Do you think that going to lunch with an opposite sex co-worker during the lunch break is typically forbidden in most marriages? I mean that question honestly and without judgement or goading or anything. I didn't think there was anything wrong with that alone, with no prior illicit marital history, but I could totally be wrong.


----------



## G.J.

cdbaker said:


> Do you think that going to lunch with an opposite sex co-worker during the lunch break is typically forbidden in most marriages? I mean that question honestly and without judgement or goading or anything. I didn't think there was anything wrong with that alone, with no prior illicit marital history, but I could totally be wrong.


When married people see there co workers of the opposite sex in a lot of cases as much as their own partner (40-50 hours p.w.) and also go to lunch together, just the two of them then if it doesn't bother a spouse it may be a situation waiting to happen


----------



## sidney2718

Francesco said:


> yes, but others have cars.... and also many female friends. Besides the fact that the area has many places where to go eat...


I think everyone here understands that this is a difficult situation. More than one good marriage has been ruined by a suspicious husband who overdid it when there was nothing to find.

Twenty years of being together is worth something. So take it slow and carefully. You could check at lunchtime again, but don't let her see you and don't follow. All you want to find out is if she always has lunch with the same man. 

Nothing wrong with talking to her about the "turning white" incident. But present it as something you want explained so that you can put it out of your mind.


----------



## LongWalk

I agree. You've been married a long time. For that reason you should take care not to react in haste.

The reason I asked about smoking is because your wife, if she has engaged in an emotional affair with another man, was looking for some excitement. If you quit smoking without mentioning it, it will make an impression on her. You will have changed yourself, showing that you are strong.

If she has gotten some feelings for OM, it will take some time to extinguish them. The more you are present as a strong figure will erase OM quicker.


----------



## badmemory

Francesco said:


> She was a classic home and church girl, never had a boyfriend and the few that tried to be with her gave up after seeing that she wasn't easy.
> 
> Long story short she excepted to date me after 6 MONTHS of courtship!!!
> 
> And our first kiss happened after 5 dates!


There's two different ways to look at her conservative history.

1 - That the lunch date is likely innocent because she's never shown to be that type of woman. 

2 - That the lunch date is so out of character for her that there must be something going on.

All I can tell you is this board is littered with incidences of BH's who at one time, only believed explanation #1; and I was one of them.

You know her best. Trust for now, but verify.


----------



## Francesco

well.... just got back home. After the game i talked to my friend, I explained to him what i saw and what i was feeling..... he didn't even let me finish and said to me that if i wanted he had this week off ( he is in the police) and if i wanted to let him help me. From my smile he didn't even wait for me to answer.
he said that tomorrow and Friday he would be at her work place and see whats up, and if there is something happening he will give me all the info i need... even the other mans address and past history! He also tells me that i should stay calm and patient and pretend that all is fine.... easy to say but hard to do.

So we gave each other a hug and he will call me tomorrow right after her lunch to let me know if what happened. Cant believe i'm doing this....


----------



## Francesco

cdbaker said:


> Well, perhaps. Sure my own story is pretty far "out there" and rare and all that. If anything though, I think I'm probably more prone to suspect foul play and keep an open eye for it than most, given my history. Not less. Heck, my ears perk up whenever my wife even mentions the name of a man I don't know, and I often will casually ask who he is. (Like if she tells me a story from work, about how her and "Mark" played a little joke on a co-worker.)
> 
> So to clarify... Yeah if my wife were regularly going out with the same guy/co-worker for lunch on an ongoing basis, I would certainly be somewhat concerned and want to look into it. I just didn't see OP saying that it was a continuous thing. At first, all he reported was that she appeared surprised when she saw him at her work mid-day, while getting out of someone's car. That can be completely, totally innocent. Her surprise is easily and understandably explainable.
> 
> It being the same exact situation a week later... yeah that calls for him doing what he did. Inquiring as to who he was, and asking what they were doing? (in a non-accusatory way, yet.) That would raise my suspicion a bit. At that point, I'd certainly be observing her behavior and conduct a bit closer, but with her background of having never cheated (to his knowledge), their relationship and her behavior not having any noticeable shifts recently, and being really no other red flags aside from the surprised look and lunch with the same guy twice in two weeks, I think installing spy software on her devices or hiring a PI is a disproportionate response.
> 
> Do you think that going to lunch with an opposite sex co-worker during the lunch break is typically forbidden in most marriages? I mean that question honestly and without judgement or goading or anything. I didn't think there was anything wrong with that alone, with no prior illicit marital history, but I could totally be wrong.



Well i saw her only twice cause those are the times i went there... but i dont know if it's a daily thing. Also i wont mind if she goes out for lunch with a coworker... but not often and in a car when you have other places near by to go eat. 
It comes by its self to not push a situation with other people of opposite sex when you are married... man or female. And it's not only respect, it's for avoiding useless problems.


----------



## Francesco

sidney2718 said:


> I think everyone here understands that this is a difficult situation. More than one good marriage has been ruined by a suspicious husband who overdid it when there was nothing to find.
> 
> Twenty years of being together is worth something. So take it slow and carefully. You could check at lunchtime again, but don't let her see you and don't follow. All you want to find out is if she always has lunch with the same man.
> 
> Nothing wrong with talking to her about the "turning white" incident. But present it as something you want explained so that you can put it out of your mind.



One of the reasons why i married her was because she had great morals. For sure i will not blow out something without solid proof.... but if something is going on that i will be certain of, then not even 40 years of marriage will make me change my mind on leaving her...


----------



## Francesco

LongWalk said:


> I agree. You've been married a long time. For that reason you should take care not to react in haste.
> 
> The reason I asked about smoking is because your wife, if she has engaged in an emotional affair with another man, was looking for some excitement. If you quit smoking without mentioning it, it will make an impression on her. You will have changed yourself, showing that you are strong.
> 
> If she has gotten some feelings for OM, it will take some time to extinguish them. The more you are present as a strong figure will erase OM quicker.


If she has feelings for om she can have him. but out of my life and out of our house. I don't like the idea to win her back in that case...


----------



## italianjob

It's good that you have a good friend that can do this for you... I hope there's nothing to it, but I think you need to verify for your peace of mind.

There's nothing wrong with going to lunch with a coworker, even of the opposite sex and even going to a place a little further away from wher you work, but if it's a daily thing with the same person on a one-on-one basis it becomes inappropriate, IMO, even if there is nothing happening at the moment.


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> It's good that you have a good friend that can do this for you... I hope there's nothing to it, but I think you need to verify for your peace of mind.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with going to lunch with a coworker, even of the opposite sex and even going to a place a little further away from wher you work, but if it's a daily thing with the same person on a one-on-one basis it becomes inappropriate, IMO, even if there is nothing happening at the moment.



I agree.... but that first time with a white face, and the second time with embarrassment... just cant get over it....


----------



## Q tip

You have every right to protect your marriage. Mate guarding shows you care.

If it ends up nothing, please don't let this investigation mode hurt your relationship. Several lunches should at least become a conversation about boundaries, values and how other guys do have other things on their minds. You might trust her, but NOT this guy. She needs to respect what you say about this and stop. Anything that makes you or her upset needs discussion.

I know you're looking for the smoking gun and mind movies can be bad. Go easy. Investigate. If nothing, still have a talk about boundaries. If it's something, you are within your rights to take further action.


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> You have every right to protect your marriage. Mate guarding shows you care.
> 
> If it ends up nothing, please don't let this investigation mode hurt your relationship. Several lunches should at least become a conversation about boundaries, values and how other guys do have other things on their minds. You might trust her, but NOT this guy. She needs to respect what you say about this and stop. Anything that makes you or her upset needs discussion.
> 
> I know you're looking for the smoking gun and mind movies can be bad. Go easy. Investigate. If nothing, still have a talk about boundaries. If it's something, you are within your rights to take further action.


yes... i agree


----------



## italianjob

Q tip said:


> You have every right to protect your marriage. Mate guarding shows you care.
> 
> If it ends up nothing, please don't let this investigation mode hurt your relationship. Several lunches should at least become a conversation about boundaries, values and how other guys do have other things on their minds. You might trust her, but NOT this guy. She needs to respect what you say about this and stop. Anything that makes you or her upset needs discussion.
> 
> I know you're looking for the smoking gun and mind movies can be bad. Go easy. Investigate. If nothing, still have a talk about boundaries. If it's something, you are within your rights to take further action.


Yeah, I think there's a high probability that you find out that nothing really bad is going on but they do go to lunch together every day. In that case you may catch them by "chance" a third time and then have a talk with her being gentle but firm, about boundaries and what is appropriate and what not...


----------



## vellocet

Francesco said:


> Question: Do I have a reason to be paranoid?


Yes. But its not paranoia if she actually is betraying you.

Perhaps suspicious is the correct word.




> After all we are a great family unit, and she always tells me how much she loves me. Am i getting obsessed?


No, something smell fishy. Her reactions are too telling.

What you should have done is not have popped up on her after she got back from this so-called lunch, and maybe later have asked questions to find out what she did for lunch.

If she said she just stayed in the office or went out with the girls from the office, and lied about it, then you'll know.


----------



## Francesco

vellocet said:


> Yes. But its not paranoia if she actually is betraying you.
> 
> Perhaps suspicious is the correct word.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, something smell fishy. Her reactions are too telling.
> 
> What you should have done is not have popped up on her after she got back from this so-called lunch, and maybe later have asked questions to find out what she did for lunch.
> 
> If she said she just stayed in the office or went out with the girls from the office, and lied about it, then you'll know.


wow... i'm pretty smart for many things, but this is something that makes me feel dumb for not thinking of doing what you wrote...


----------



## Chaparral

Does she have a cell phone like an Iphone that has a find my phone feature? Many folks here have turned that feature on and can track where their spouse is.

Another option is to put a pen voice activated recorder in the bottom of her purse to see who and what she is taliking about.

Have you checked the history on the computer to see if all she does is look at face book?

Also check her phone and the phone bill to see if texts are being deleted.


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, she knew it looked bad when you saw her getting out of his car and what you might think. That would explain her turning white. However, she did it again. Its also bad that you just happened tp be there and BOTH times she went with him. If its not happening often what are the chances you would see it twice.


----------



## chaos

If she was having a simple PA (physical affair) then your surprise visit may have caused her and the OM to cool things off for a time. But since affairs are very addicting, any affair she may be having, will probably start up again once she feels that you are no longer suspicious. I'm afraid that it will be harder to catch her in the act, unless your friend is very good as you claim he is.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Francesco said:


> wow... i'm pretty smart for many things, but this is something that makes me feel dumb for not thinking of doing what you wrote...


It's not too late, if your friend sees her going out with this guy at lunch time you can try it that night.


----------



## altawa

Tagged for updates. Very interested.


----------



## G.J.

oh there are other places close to eat...fingers crossed



> but not often and in a car when you have other places near by to go eat.


----------



## Francesco

Chaparral said:


> Does she have a cell phone like an Iphone that has a find my phone feature? Many folks here have turned that feature on and can track where their spouse is.
> 
> Another option is to put a pen voice activated recorder in the bottom of her purse to see who and what she is taliking about.
> 
> Have you checked the history on the computer to see if all she does is look at face book?
> 
> Also check her phone and the phone bill to see if texts are being deleted.



she has i windows phone, the mod is a nokia lumia 635.
she only uses her smartphone for internet and besides facebook she logges on youtube... 
she works in a goverment branch very important, don't think pen vars are a good idea ....


----------



## Francesco

chaos said:


> If she was having a simple PA (physical affair) then your surprise visit may have caused her and the OM to cool things off for a time. But since affairs are very addicting, any affair she may be having, will probably start up again once she feels that you are no longer suspicious. I'm afraid that it will be harder to catch her in the act, unless your friend is very good as you claim he is.


he is.... he's works in a particular and delicate area of the police... let's say that he doesn't use a uniform to work.


----------



## Chaparral

Francesco said:


> she has i windows phone, the mod is a nokia lumia 635.
> she only uses her smartphone for internet and besides facebook she logges on youtube...
> she works in a goverment branch very important, don't think pen vars are a good idea ....


This link may help . 

Nokia Lumia 635 - Find your lost phone - User Guide - Microsoft - USA

I don't know anything about windows phones but people use this feature to track I phones.

Good luck, we all hope nothing is going on.


----------



## Francesco

Just got the call from my friend.......
He waited at a safety distance (she knows him), and by 12:30 saw her get out with 2 other females and 1 male (the coworker).
All 4 went to the bar across the road and had something to eat there. He waited until they finished.
Once they got out they stayed a bit together, and first one and then the other female coworker left, and my wife with the OM stayed sitting outside on the tables talking.
He said that where very confident... not like a usual coworkers usually behaves.

After that she walked him to that car of his and after a cheek to cheek kiss he left and she went back in. My friend got his license plate and model and then left......


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> wow... i'm pretty smart for many things, but this is something that makes me feel dumb for not thinking of doing what you wrote...


Things like this becomes chess not checkers. It's always the next thing you must think of now not later.


----------



## convert

Francesco said:


> Just got the call from my friend.......
> He waited at a safety distance (she knows him), and by 12:30 saw her get out with 2 other females and 1 male (the coworker).
> All 4 went to the bar across the road and had something to eat there. He waited until they finished.
> Once they got out they stayed a bit together, and first one and then the other female coworker left, and my wife with the OM stayed sitting outside on the tables talking.
> He said that where very confident... not like a usual coworkers usually behaves.
> 
> After that she walked him to that car of his and after a cheek to cheek kiss he left and she went back in. My friend got his license plate and model and then left......


yea it sounds like they are cooling it for a bit (maybe)

I don't know if I would ask her about lunch today. as it may tip her off that you are watching or at least very suspicious. beside she will tell you exactly what happened beside the kissing the cheek thing. Is that common for your culture?

it may take several trips to watch. could you rent a motor bike with helmet to watch?

did you say your friend is going to watch again Friday?


----------



## Francesco

convert said:


> yea it sounds like they are cooling it for a bit (maybe)
> 
> I don't know if I would ask her about lunch today. as it may tip her off that you are watching or at least very suspicious. beside she will tell you exactly what happened beside the kissing the cheek thing. Is that common for your culture?
> 
> it may take several trips to watch. could you rent a motor bike with helmet to watch?
> 
> did you say your friend is going to watch again Friday?


yes he will. He said that tomorrow he will be there again, and if something doesn't convince him he said that Monday he will have one of his men take over! 
When i asked him if there was something that he thought was wrong he answered NI.... (N for no and I for the Italian yes Sì)
He then told me to stay cool. If something going on he will find it. I believe him.... he is in a special police unit called "catturandi" and they are no joke!

I have no intentions on letting her know anything... not going to ask nor going to make her suspicious. I'm playing it dumb


----------



## Francesco

convert said:


> the kissing the cheek thing. Is that common for your culture?



sorry i missed this... YES it is very common. Even between men.
A hand shack, then a kiss on the left and a kiss on the right


----------



## convert

well hopefully this is nothing but boundaries being approached. and for that maybe you caught it early.

but at some point you are going to have to talk to her about these boundaries.


----------



## convert

Francesco said:


> sorry i missed this... YES it is very common. Even between men.
> A hand shack, then a kiss on the left and a kiss on the right


I think if it were more your friend would have saw a long kiss on the lips.

does she know your friend?


----------



## italianjob

Ciao Francesco!
By the description I agree with your friend about the "NI"...
I think this is something that's not quite there yet, but it may get to a dangerous point if given time and space.
It will be important to see how they behave when they get out by car one on one.
Play dumb for now and wait to know more, but look around for other red flags in her behavior at home.


----------



## Chaparral

So she has never mentioned him to you before? Does she generally mention her other co workers?


----------



## Chaparral

I hate to bring this up but have you checked to see what kind of underwear she wears to work lately? Has this changed?

Has your sex life changed any in the last couple of years? More, less, the same? Any changes at all?


----------



## farsidejunky

If it were me, I would set a time and/or threshold limit on this.

Time: Another week of your friend watching. If he finds more of the same, then enforce the boundary. My wife and I have a rule of no opposite sex alone time. Period. It is a great boundary. 

"I am not okay with my wife being alone with another man in his car, or going on a lunch date. If you continue to spend time alone with this man despite this conversation, I will have no choice but to assume this is inappropriate and act accordingly."

Get her the book "Not Just Friends" if it is in your language, and ask her to read it.

Threshold: If your friend finds more evidence, blow it sky high, and follow the confrontation advice that you will get here.

My big concern on the time is wanting to not allow this thing to mature. I don't like it at all, and it reeks of a blossoming EA.


----------



## Francesco

convert said:


> I think if it were more your friend would have saw a long kiss on the lips.
> 
> does she know your friend?


not sure... she would have coworkers see her and they know she is married. Yes she knows him. We are friends for over 30 years... he is more like a brother that i never had.


----------



## Francesco

Chaparral said:


> So she has never mentioned him to you before? Does she generally mention her other co workers?


No, never mentioned him in the past, other coworkers yes, but this in particular never....


----------



## Suspecting2014

Francesco said:


> No, never mentioned him in the past, other coworkers yes, but this in particular never....


Big red flag.

You really need to get deletd messages from her phone.


----------



## Francesco

Chaparral said:


> I hate to bring this up but have you checked to see what kind of underwear she wears to work lately? Has this changed?
> 
> Has your sex life changed any in the last couple of years? More, less, the same? Any changes at all?


always the same lingerie... not to hot, but not even casual. Our sex life is great.... even over 17 years of marriage we have sex at least 3 times a week. Sometimes less, other more but that is the average. Its never always the same... we enjoy changing.
Must say that this last month she seems more horny...


----------



## Francesco

farsidejunky said:


> If it were me, I would set a time and/or threshold limit on this.
> 
> Time: Another week of your friend watching. If he finds more of the same, then enforce the boundary. My wife and I have a rule of no opposite sex alone time. Period. It is a great boundary.
> 
> "I am not okay with my wife being alone with another man in his car, or going on a lunch date. If you continue to spend time alone with this man despite this conversation, I will have no choice but to assume this is inappropriate and act accordingly."
> 
> Get her the book "Not Just Friends" if it is in your language, and ask her to read it.
> 
> Threshold: If your friend finds more evidence, blow it sky high, and follow the confrontation advice that you will get here.
> 
> My big concern on the time is wanting to not allow this thing to mature. I don't like it at all, and it reeks of a blossoming EA.



got it! and i agree


----------



## convert

Francesco said:


> always the same lingerie... not to hot, but not even casual. Our sex life is great.... even over 17 years of marriage we have sex at least 3 times a week. Sometimes less, other more but that is the average. Its never always the same... we enjoy changing.
> *Must say that this last month she seems more horny*...


another red flag or at least an orange flag.

yes do not let this go to long you want to nip it in the bud before a PA starts.


----------



## Francesco

Suspecting2014 said:


> Big red flag.
> 
> You really need to get deletd messages from her phone.


if something is going on i dought that she use's her phone... to much risks and for what? they see each other every day.


----------



## Suspecting2014

convert said:


> Francesco said:
> 
> 
> 
> always the same lingerie... not to hot, but not even casual. Our sex life is great.... even over 17 years of marriage we have sex at least 3 times a week. Sometimes less, other more but that is the average. Its never always the same... we enjoy changing.
> *Must say that this last month she seems more horny*...
> 
> 
> 
> another red flag or at least an orange flag.
> 
> yes do not let this go to long you want to nip it in the bud before a PA starts.
Click to expand...

Looks like the begining of the EA, maybe sexting to eachother or even sex contact but not all the way


----------



## vellocet

Francesco said:


> wow... i'm pretty smart for many things, but this is something that makes me feel dumb for not thinking of doing what you wrote...


Don't feel that way at all. When something like this happens, we don't tend to think straight.

I probably wouldn't have thought about it back when I was married if the situation was similar.

But now that we have dealt with it, and been there/done that, we can advise with a clear head.

So don't feel dumb, it happens to the best of us when hurting.


----------



## Chaparral

"More horney" we often we that here. A budding emotional affair, or just a physical affair that's "just sex" causes the wife to be more amorous with her husband. It's not a good sign. It's also not a sure thing but it is another red flag.


----------



## Chaparral

Francesco said:


> if something is going on i dought that she use's her phone... to much risks and for what? they see each other every day.


This is true but they usually get over confident and may text over the weekend or holidays when they can't see each other. Checking to see if any texts are being deleted is a must do. Leaving the phone around shows she isn't hiding anything but may be a show if deleting texts.


----------



## Yeswecan

I detect the beginning of an EA. For me, when my W has the time during the day she will come to my place of employment and go to lunch with me(like a mini-date as it were). These days you have free time...why is your W not going to lunch with you? Has she offered or suggested in the past for you to come for lunch on the days you are able? 

Also, the white-faced blank caught in the headlight stare is very telling. In her mind she is thinking this does not appear to look like what you are thinking. Yet, it very much is what it appears to you and what you are thinking. 

I think you W compartmentalizes very well?


----------



## Suspecting2014

Francesco said:


> Suspecting2014 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Big red flag.
> 
> You really need to get deletd messages from her phone.
> 
> 
> 
> if something is going on i dought that she use's her phone... to much risks and for what? they see each other every day.
Click to expand...

Truth as they can use mailwork etc. But as chaparral pointed out they will be texing out work.

Check phone bill looking for numerous calls to the same number and first time in the morning or late nigth... You get the point.


----------



## Francesco

Yeswecan said:


> I detect the beginning of an EA. For me, when my W has the time during the day she will come to my place of employment and go to lunch with me(like a mini-date as it were). These days you have free time...why is your W not going to lunch with you? Has she offered or suggested in the past for you to come for lunch on the days you are able?
> 
> Also, the white-faced blank caught in the headlight stare is very telling. In her mind she is thinking this does not appear to look like what you are thinking. Yet, it very much is what it appears to you and what you are thinking.
> 
> I think you W compartmentalizes very well?


we cant have lunch together do to my work schedulers... she works from 09:00 till 16:00 with 1 hour break from 12:30 till 13:30, i work from 08:00 till 20:00 with 2 hour break from 13:30 to 15:30.

In the meantime my friend knows where he lives... he is married with 3 kids. Lives about 40 minute car drive from our house and about 50 minute drive from work.


----------



## hurt forever

You have proof of "seeing" them together, even though it may look innocent, I didn't have that, was completely blindsided, their meetings took place while I was at work, he got off earlier then me, so they would met up to talk to her and he would make sure he was home before I was,' You go with your gut, my H started out emotionally and turned sexual. Right now it may be just E, so confront her now!!!! And hope it didn't become sexual yet? And if you notice she keeps her phone near her and it's always on vibrate...that's what my H did, but never thought anything about it, if I checked our phone records, I never did that, if I did I would have known. Your gut is your friend!!!


----------



## italianjob

Her being more horny is a tell tale sign.

The Buildup might be at an advanced stage, they've probably started to flirt openly. It's possible she "warms up" by talking to him and flirting at work so she's horny when she gets home.

If that's the case you don't have much time left before it goes physical, if it's not happened yet.


----------



## G.J.

If it has gone PA his house is too far away in the lunch break time of 1 hour 10 mins the day you saw them...how long to your house from her work?


----------



## Nucking Futs

Francesco said:


> we cant have lunch together do to my work schedulers... she works from 09:00 till 16:00 with 1 hour break from 12:30 till 13:30, i work from 08:00 till 20:00 with 2 hour break from 13:30 to 15:30.
> 
> In the meantime my friend knows where he lives... he is married with 3 kids. Lives about 40 minute car drive from our house and about 50 minute drive from work.


You might want to see if your friend can observe her at quitting time to see if she goes straight home or if she leaves with him. See if she's spending any of the 4 hours between her quitting time and yours with him.


----------



## G.J.

Nucking Futs said:


> You might want to see if your friend can observe her at quitting time to see if she goes straight home or if she leaves with him. See if she's spending any of the 4 hours between her quitting time and yours with him.


Yep thought about that when I posted about lunch time...she may be picking up kids then getting some one to look after them on nookie day for an hour unless she has free time straight after b4 picking up the children


----------



## Francesco

G.J. said:


> If it has gone PA his house is too far away in the lunch break time of 1 hour 10 mins the day you saw them...how long to your house from her work?


It's a 20 minute walk... 5 minutes car. she goes always on feet


----------



## Francesco

Nucking Futs said:


> You might want to see if your friend can observe her at quitting time to see if she goes straight home or if she leaves with him. See if she's spending any of the 4 hours between her quitting time and yours with him.


That never happens, she's home by 16:30 my D15 and my S7 are home by themselves from when i leave till she arrives.


----------



## Francesco

G.J. said:


> Yep thought about that when I posted about lunch time...she may be picking up kids then getting some one to look after them on nookie day for an hour unless she has free time straight after b4 picking up the children


NOPE, my D15 would tell me. We have a straight and solid relationship. Although she is a teenager we always love to cuddle. Must say that we are lucky to have a D. like her...


----------



## brendanoco

Francesco said:


> It's a 20 minute walk... 5 minutes car. she goes always on feet


when you were following them and you lost them in traffic how long were you following them before you lost them? were they going in the direction of your house


----------



## Francesco

brendanoco said:


> when you were following them and you lost them in traffic how long were you following them before you lost them? were they going in the direction of your house


they where in the opposite direction. i lost them not even after 4 minutes. The city where i live is very chaotic, lost them after 3 blocks


----------



## Q tip

Can still be nothing. 

For now, don't like white face and surprise 2 times. And them talking until after the other two ladies leave from lunch.

Perhaps, notice her home routine. Does she take a shower immediately when getting home? Hair different when she gets home? Anything changing? Even (excuse me) underwear in laundry and its condition. In the US there are test kits to see if a stain belongs to someone else. A stain does not mean anything though. Common to have something there at times. Does she wash her clothes/underwear when getting home but never has before. 

Browse through her purse for anything out of the ordinary. 

The smell of clothes if there is a mans cologne. Would be very light smell. Strong smell of cigarettes when she does not smoke and others at work don't...

But still, nothing convincing yet. Normal lunch activity so far.

They could have slowed down u till the dust clears a. Bit. But please do not be paranoid. So far - not much at all.

Check detailed phone bills for calls, text volume and to where. Any credit card charges, ATM withdrawals that might look interesting. Or lack of expenses for lunch. FB msgs. You can get deleted info. Someone mentions how. Request info from security settings. But they send to her email addy. May as well read her emails. Sent and check deleted too. Match names and phone numbers in phone. Sometimes they use woman's name with guys phone number to hide. The list goes on and on.. 

Don't go crazy.


----------



## Yeswecan

Whatever might be happening Francesco, going to lunch with the same coworker numerous times does not sit well with me. It does not sit well with you. Gut feeling. I do not feel you suspicions are unfounded. 

I'll ask again, why doesn't your W ask you to lunch on these days were you are free to meet her for lunch?


----------



## Chaparral

He said he doesn't get off work so he can't meet her for lunch. Its damned coincidental he has now been seen at lunch time and all three times she has been with the same man. 

Has she noticed anything about you since this started? It has to be hard to play this straight. Have you noticed anything odd about her since you caught them together, like her checking you out?

Regarding the time she spends on Facebook etc., do you have her passwords? She might talk to friends about him. Have you noticed anything odd about how her friends are acting?


----------



## G.J.

G.J. said:


> Hi Francesco
> Go into her FB account and request the archive, its under security..it takes a few minutes and
> is sent to her email...go to her email and unzip the file it will show you all her chats....unless
> she has purposely deleted some permanently which if she doesn't know about she may not have


*I asked you the other day to do this, have you ??*

p.s.
Thx Chaparral for reminding me about FB


----------



## Francesco

Chaparral said:


> He said he doesn't get off work so he can't meet her for lunch. Its damned coincidental he has now been seen at lunch time and all three times she has been with the same man.
> 
> Has she noticed anything about you since this started? It has to be hard to play this straight. Have you noticed anything odd about her since you caught them together, like her checking you out?
> 
> Regarding the time she spends on Facebook etc., do you have her passwords? She might talk to friends about him. Have you noticed anything odd about how her friends are acting?



Thats right, our lunch times are different. I managed the fist time to o cause my boss needed a ride near her work place, so i taught i surprise her, thats when it was the white face and thats why i decided to return again almost a week after. I had a coworker of mine that covered my back for one hour. that time again they where together. a bit embarrassed.
The third time was yesterday but it was my friend who saw and called me. Today he will repeat it.
Yes, she has seen me a little pissed a week ago when i first saw it, but i think that since then i kept it cool, in fact she acts normal at home when we are together, doesn't seem to suspect that i am keeping an eye on her.
I have been checking her face book profile, that man is not in her contacts, and she only has 5 or 6 other male contacts but family friends. She never log's out of facebook so when i digit her nick the pw appears automatically


----------



## Francesco

today my friend told me he will be there again, eventually this time he said he would take pics of them. next update around 14:00 o-clook my local time...


----------



## italianjob

Francesco said:


> Thats right, our lunch times are different. I managed the fist time to o cause my boss needed a ride near her work place, so i taught i surprise her, thats when it was the white face and thats why i decided to return again almost a week after. I had a coworker of mine that covered my back for one hour. that time again they where together. a bit embarrassed.
> The third time was yesterday but it was my friend who saw and called me. Today he will repeat it.
> Yes, she has seen me a little pissed a week ago when i first saw it, but i think that since then i kept it cool, in fact she acts normal at home when we are together, doesn't seem to suspect that i am keeping an eye on her.
> I have been checking her face book profile, that man is not in her contacts, and she only has 5 or 6 other male contacts but family friends. She never log's out of facebook so when i digit her nick the pw appears automatically


I still think this is an affair "under construction" and that you are in time to stop it before it goes too far, and that's why you're not noticing anything else beside the lunch incidents.

Anyway just to be sure:
- verify that among her contacts on FB there are no female names without picture and with no other friend or profiles with made up names (like cartoon or comics characters or things like that).
- verify, if you can get to her phone, that there are no unknown female names. if you see some of them verify texts and call logs to those numbers.
- try to understand from your kids, without being inquisitive and without making direct questions, if there have been significant changes in their daily routine in the last few months or if she is spending a lot of time with her phone or on the PC while they wait for you to come home.


----------



## Q tip

If it's nothing or not, have a planned list of topics to discuss with her.

Boundaries, boundaries. They keep toxins from poisoning your marriage. With strong boundaries, your marriage is safe from the evil in the world. A place you both can live happily. The stronger the better.

No lunch alone with opposite sex. No lingering with male after everyone else leaves... Well not that specific she may suspect you're spying. Talk based on you've seen them twice. What she knows you know.

Opposite sex friends are out. Guys aren't "friends" with ladies unless they think there's something more. You trust her but not other Guys. Maybe discuss PUA strategy. Pick Up Artists. They Instigate to get attention or response, Isolate get her alone then escalate the relationship. Google it. Lots of info there.

PUA sometimes take months to work their charms slowly. The woman won't even know he's creeping steadily closer.

If she's initiating the lunches. Hmmmm... That's another topic. 

Then. Trust but verify for a while.

A book "Married Man Sex Life Primer" by Athol Kay is a good read. As is "Not Just Friends"


----------



## italianjob

Q tip said:


> If it's nothing or not, have a planned list of topics to discuss with her.
> 
> Boundaries, boundaries. They keep toxins from poisoning your marriage. With strong boundaries, your marriage is safe from the evil in the world. A place you both can live happily. The stronger the better.
> 
> No lunch alone with opposite sex. No lingering with male after everyone else leaves... Well not that specific she may suspect you're spying. Talk based on you've seen them twice. What she knows you know.
> 
> Opposite sex friends are out. Guys aren't "friends" with ladies unless they think there's something more. You trust her but not other Guys. Maybe discuss PUA strategy. Pick Up Artists. They Instigate to get attention or response, Isolate get her alone then escalate the relationship. Google it. Lots of info there.
> 
> PUA sometimes take months to work their charms slowly. The woman won't even know he's creeping steadily closer.
> 
> If she's initiating the lunches. Hmmmm... That's another topic.
> 
> Then. Trust but verify for a while.
> 
> A book "Married Man Sex Life Primer" by Athol Kay is a good read. As is "Not Just Friends"


Yeah, you'll need to have a serious talk about boundaries, even if it turns out as nothing serious happening now, and enforce those boundaries, giving consequences if you find out she doesn't respect them.

Wait before you do that, anyway, to be fairly sure about nothing going on now, bc if she's really up to something, she'll know you are watching her and go further underground to avoid being caught.


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> Yeah, you'll need to have a serious talk about boundaries, even if it turns out as nothing serious happening now, and enforce those boundaries, giving consequences if you find out she doesn't respect them.
> 
> Wait before you do that, anyway, to be fairly sure about nothing going on now, bc if she's really up to something, she'll know you are watching her and go further underground to avoid being caught.


You see... you would think that a person who takes up to 6 months just to say yes for a date, and another week before giving a kiss needs to be told about boundaries? 
She was the one who gave ME some boundaries just from the beginning of our relationship, she knew that i had been around and was fearful i wasn't committed.
I truly loved her to the point that i already knew she was the one to share my life with.
Ever since we lived a wonderful life, our kids are the proof by the way they are raised! My D15 is on the top 10 of the school best students out of 1800, my S7 is on the same road. They see a good family unit and live it that way... 
In over 17 years of marriage we probably fought, a bit more seriously, the most 5 times!!
In these years she had hundred's of men trying to get to her, and never once give them the chance to even know her name... 
so.. if on one hand we need to talk about boundaries, on the other it's if me telling a plumper how to change a tube..
but if nothing comes out of all this in a week, i need to tell her what i feel anyways.


----------



## Suspecting2014

What is your dealbreaker?

Texting and saying I love you, sexting, sexting with pics, kiss, bj, make out, sex.

I am asking because you need to know what to do if something has happened, and the most important act before a dealbreaker happens.

Confonting now would make it stop or made them be more careful, besides she will deny everything. 

It may be nothing but is very strange having lunch with him alone twice you know and never mention this guy before.


IMO you need to act normal this weekend and tell her next week you be out town for work, if posible, during one day. Take off that day and leave as always and be prepared to follow her.

Dont chose monday to give them time to set up for lunch or something.

If nothing happen stop guessing and confront about how you feel and have the boundary talk. Keeping this for much longer is not good for you and your marriage.


----------



## Francesco

Suspecting2014 said:


> What is your dealbreaker?
> 
> Texting and saying I love you, sexting, sexting with pics, kiss, bj, make out, sex.
> 
> I am asking because you need to know what to do if something has happened, and the most important act before a dealbreaker happens.
> 
> Confonting now would make it stop or made them be more careful, besides she will deny everything.
> 
> It may be nothing but is very strange having lunch with him alone twice you know and never mention this guy before.
> 
> 
> IMO you need to act normal this weekend and tell her next week you be out town for work, if posible, during one day. Take off that day and leave as always and be prepared to follow her.
> 
> Dont chose monday to give them time to set up for lunch or something.
> 
> If nothing happen stop guessing and confront about how you feel and have the boundary talk. Keeping this for much longer is not good for you and your marriage.


I only found out about this guy 2 weeks ago, she usually tell's me everything that goes on at work, never mentioned this guy... i dont know if was only twice or more times that they have lunch only them two, but for sure she's with him 3 out 3 the times i started to wonder and keep an eye on... today i wonder if it will be number 4 in a row.
For me a deal breaker is also sharing an emotional attention with other men. I mean one cont is being a friend, another is being to cuzy cuzy....


----------



## italianjob

Francesco said:


> You see... you would think that a person who takes up to 6 months just to say yes for a date, and another week before giving a kiss needs to be told about boundaries?
> She was the one who gave ME some boundaries just from the beginning of our relationship, she knew that i had been around and was fearful i wasn't committed.
> I truly loved her to the point that i already knew she was the one to share my life with.
> Ever since we lived a wonderful life, our kids are the proof by the way they are raised! My D15 is on the top 10 of the school best students out of 1800, my S7 is on the same road. They see a good family unit and live it that way...
> In over 17 years of marriage we probably fought, a bit more seriously, the most 5 times!!
> In these years she had hundred's of men trying to get to her, and never once give them the chance to even know her name...
> so.. if on one hand we need to talk about boundaries, on the other it's if me telling a plumper how to change a tube..
> but if nothing comes out of all this in a week, i need to tell her what i feel anyways.


Francesco,
From what you wrote, I think your wife is having some sort of "midlife crisis". She's been a good girl all her life and something (maybe turning 40 or maybe this particular guy is some kind of pick up artist and found the right things to say) triggered her so that in this case she likes the adrenaline and the attention.
I think she is now in a phase where she is confused between what she is Always been and what she knows is right and the new feelings this guy's attention is giving her.
She needs to be shaken out of her confusion, that's why I was talking about re-setting boundaries and giving consequences, she has to see that this behavior can sure give a pleasurable dopamine shot but that the price to pay is very high. She knows but at this moment she needs to be reminded.


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> Francesco,
> From what you wrote, I think your wife is having some sort of "midlife crisis". She's been a good girl all her life and something (maybe turning 40 or maybe this particular guy is some kind of pick up artist and found the right things to say) triggered her so that in this case she likes the adrenaline and the attention.
> I think she is now in a phase where she is confused between what she is Always been and what she knows is right and the new feelings this guy's attention is giving her.
> She needs to be shaken out of her confusion, that's why I was talking about re-setting boundaries and giving consequences, she has to see that this behavior can sure give a pleasurable dopamine shot but that the price to pay is very high. She knows but at this moment she needs to be reminded.


I agree. But before i start to say anything i will talk to her but not now. I will wait one more week so i can have more info, today and monday ther will be someone that will be my 3° eye, tuesday i have 2 hours covered and i will go by myself, and if he is still around at lunch time we will talk.... I will talk!


----------



## italianjob

Francesco said:


> I agree. But before i start to say anything i will talk to her but not now. I will wait one more week so i can have more info, today and monday ther will be someone that will be my 3° eye, tuesday i have 2 hours covered and i will go by myself, and if he is still around at lunch time we will talk.... I will talk!


I agree, you have to verify what's really going on. I think you're still in time to stop this before it's too late, but you need to know for sure.


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> I agree, you have to verify what's really going on. I think you're still in time to stop this before it's too late, but you need to know for sure.



yes. in the meantime my friend should give me a call pretty soon. in about 15 minuts she should be back from her lunch. update latter.


----------



## bfree

Francesco, I haven't posted yet. I don't have any advice that hasn't already been offered. I just want you to know that I'm praying that this turns out to be just a lapse in boundaries and nothing is going on. I pray that your beautiful family will remain intact and undisturbed. Good luck.


----------



## Chaparral

I was expecting an update by now, this doesn't look good.


----------



## G.J.

Chaparral said:


> I was expecting an update by now, this doesn't look good.


no 
still, fingers crossed


----------



## Forest

Francesco is like a duck on a junebug, eh? 

(unrelenting)


----------



## Q tip

A few well placed compliments over time can make anyone smile and give attention back. Just hoping this is nothing...


----------



## ConanHub

bfree said:


> Francesco, I haven't posted yet. I don't have any advice that hasn't already been offered. I just want you to know that I'm praying that this turns out to be just a lapse in boundaries and nothing is going on. I pray that your beautiful family will remain intact and undisturbed. Good luck.


Amen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KingwoodKev

If something isn't already going on it will be soon. I'd say it's already going on. When you've been together as long as you have your gut feeling is always right.

Even if there was nothing going on, going to lunch with a group from the office is fine. Going to lunch with a member of the opposite sex alone, repeatedly, is never fine.


----------



## Yeswecan

My hopes it is a lapse in judgement on his W part. It has been nothing but lunch just too many times that is raising eyebrows. Causing major concerns.


----------



## Yeswecan

KingwoodKev said:


> If something isn't already going on it will be soon. I'd say it's already going on. When you've been together as long as you have your gut feeling is always right.
> 
> Even if there was nothing going on, going to lunch with a group from the office is fine. Going to lunch with a member of the opposite sex alone, repeatedly, is never fine.


:iagree:


----------



## Francesco

i just finished talking with my friend..... not good.

First thing he didn't call me, he came by my work place. Just that got me a bit upset. 
His eye's didn't look straight at mine, and i knew he felt sorry.
So this is what happened: 
he got there just when she was cumming out the building with a group of coworkers and yes, the OM also. After a few minutes the group split-up some went to the same place of yesterday, but my wife and the OM decided to go other wear. 
They started walking and where laughing and kidding the whole time. When he saw that they passed the car of the OM without getting in, my friend parked his bike and followed them from distance.
15 minutes after they stopped at at fast food nearby, bought a sandwich and sat on a bench. Once they finished they started to talk, the OM seemed concerned with something and what my friend got out off of it was a very confident body language from both. He even passed his hand on her cheek in one occasion and held her hand for a few seconds in another occasion. She didn't mind at all.
After that they started to walk back to the building 15 minutes before the break was over and then went inside.
He said that there was many sign's of confidence between them. He said that he didn't like the way she behaved, that there's something more going on. He took some pics of them, unfortunately not the one where he touched her, but good enough to get me pissed.
He also said that Monday he will have a coworker of his to check out again.
While he was still talking to my friend, my wife call's me on the cell. God knows where i got the strength to stay calm!
Once a month on a Friday (the weekend that we go at her parents house) she goes ahead of time to help out her brother that takes care of them (like i wrote before they have health issues just like my parents), we were to go next weekend but her brother called saying that if was possible to switch weeks, and she wanted to know if it was ok. SURE! the only thing i managed to say, and i took it as a sign of God to give me time and not overreact. 
So before i get home she will be at her parents house in a town 1 hour and a half away, and i will see her only tomorrow afternoon when i get to be there with my D15. (she take's D7)

Soooo...... i guess that my wife has some kind of double life. We are her stability, her lunch instead is more then a break!
I will try to make this weekend the same as always... cant confront yet untill we get back on sunday evening.


----------



## tom67

Francesco said:


> i just finished talking with my friend..... not good.
> 
> First thing he didn't call me, he came by my work place. Just that got me a bit upset.
> His eye's didn't look straight at mine, and i knew he felt sorry.
> So this is what happened:
> he got there just when she was cumming out the building with a group of coworkers and yes, the OM also. After a few minutes the group split-up some went to the same place of yesterday, but my wife and the OM decided to go other wear.
> They started walking and where laughing and kidding the whole time. When he saw that they passed the car of the OM without getting in, my friend parked his bike and followed them from distance.
> 15 minutes after they stopped at at fast food nearby, bought a sandwich and sat on a bench. Once they finished they started to talk, the OM seemed concerned with something and what my friend got out off of it was a very confident body language from both. He even passed his hand on her cheek in one occasion and held her hand for a few seconds in another occasion. She didn't mind at all.
> After that they started to walk back to the building 15 minutes before the break was over and then went inside.
> He said that there was many sign's of confidence between them. He said that he didn't like the way she behaved, that there's something more going on. He took some pics of them, unfortunately not the one where he touched her, but good enough to get me pissed.
> He also said that Monday he will have a coworker of his to check out again.
> While he was still talking to my friend, my wife call's me on the cell. God knows where i got the strength to stay calm!
> Once a month on a Friday (the weekend that we go at her parents house) she goes ahead of time to help out her brother that takes care of them (like i wrote before they have health issues just like my parents), we were to go next weekend but her brother called saying that if was possible to switch weeks, and she wanted to know if it was ok. SURE! the only thing i managed to say, and i took it as a sign of God to give me time and not overreact.
> So before i get home she will be at her parents house in a town 1 hour and a half away, and i will see her only tomorrow afternoon when i get to be there with my D15. (she take's D7)
> 
> Soooo...... i guess that my wife has some kind of double life. We are her stability, her lunch instead is more then a break!
> I will try to make this weekend the same as always... cant confront yet untill we get back on sunday evening.


Oh boy the "gut" hits again.
Sorry.
When you do confront her cool and calm and strong that is the best chance to snap her out of this.
Do NOT talk to him unless you want to simply say "You can have her"
A little reverse psychology.


----------



## Graywolf2

Is there any way for you to independently verify that that they were assigned the same project?

Is there any way for them to meet up before you get there with your daughter?


----------



## tom67

Then you expose to mutual close friends and family where appropiate.


----------



## G.J.

So Sorry

But remember at this stage it may not have gone physical and may still be boundary issues as the guy quickly touched her cheek and held very quickly her hand nothing more


----------



## ConanHub

Sorry Francesco. It is not looking too good. I was hoping different but for that man to feel confident enough to touch her intimately, like a concerned family member or lover, in public. It looks pretty bad.

Glad you kept your cool. Lord knows I would not have been able to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Call her brother and see what's going on. Not sure how to ask him but could this be an excuse to meet the other man.

I don't like waiting. I don't like confronting to soon but you may be able to stop this before it's too late.

He may have just been consoling her but it's too much she has met with him every day.
I would ask her if she needs a divorce so she can be with him everyday.


----------



## brendanoco

I honestly don't think its gone to a PA yet but it think it is starting to, the OM is testing the waters with some non sexual touching i.e hand on cheek and holding her hand for a few seconds and since she didnt respond negativly to his touches i think he will start to test the waters more. i think you need to confront sooner rather than later


----------



## Chaparral

Send her a text and ask her if she always holds hands with men she hasn't told you anything about.


----------



## G.J.

Francesco said:


> * she goes ahead of time to help out her brother that takes care of them *(like i wrote before they have health issues just like my parents), we were to go next weekend but her brother called saying that if was possible to *switch weeks*, and she wanted to know if it was ok. SURE! the only thing i managed to say, and i took it as a sign of God to give me time and not overreact.
> *So before i get home she will be at her parents house in a town 1 hour and a half away, and i will see her only tomorrow *afternoon when i get to be there with my D15. (she take's D7)
> .


Will she be taking the children with her when she goes
Will there be any time when she will be on her own


----------



## Chaparral

brendanoco said:


> I honestly don't think its gone to a PA yet but it think it is starting to, the OM is testing the waters with some non sexual touching i.e hand on cheek and holding her hand for a few seconds. i think you need to confront sooner rather than later


I agree. If they were in a sexual affair, the only reason she would be coming home extra horney is too throw him off the track or she is thinking of him. They almost always cut back on sad with their husband if it has gone sexual. I would bust her now.


----------



## G.J.

Chaparral said:


> Send her a text and ask her if she always holds hands with men she hasn't told you anything about.


Understand why your saying that but depending on how emotional involved she is at the minute she may be more careful in future and say a cover story no matter how weak it looks

I would only say that at the minute if I was going to read her the riot act and bluff out what's happening from her


----------



## Chaparral

Tell her someone called you and told you she was eating lunch with him everyday and saw him and her holding hands.


----------



## farsidejunky

You need to somehow verify the accuracy of the story ASAP. 

There was another poster on here who confronted his wife from a distance while his wife and OM were just checking into a motel. Had he actually followed the advice, he could have blown it up before it was consummated. Instead, she texted him back that they would talk later and then she had sex with the OM.

OP, move on this quick. Get the information you need to make sure she is not going to consummate this thing, and blow it sky high.


----------



## Francesco

Graywolf2 said:


> Is there any way for you to independently verify that that they were assigned the same project?
> 
> Is there any way for them to meet up before you get there with your daughter?


no, she will get off a bit earlier to go home and get my S7, then take the bus straight to the town


----------



## Chaparral

G.J. said:


> Understand why your saying that but depending on how emotional involved she is at the minute she may be more careful in future and say a cover story no matter how weak it looks
> 
> I would only say that at the minute if I was going to read her the riot act and bluff out what's happening from her


IM wondering is she called her brother and switched weekends. She could meet up with him before she picks up her daughter.


----------



## Chaparral

Francesco said:


> no, she will get off a bit earlier to go home and get my S7, then take the bus straight to the town


You hope. She could leAve eArly enough to meet up with him and then go get your daughter. Call your brother in law and ask him if he is cool with switching weekends.


----------



## farsidejunky

You need to discreetly but quickly verify Francesco.


----------



## Graywolf2

Francesco said:


> Once a month on a Friday (the weekend that we go at her parents house) she goes ahead of time to help out her brother that takes care of them.


If there no time for a quickie at lunch this is when a PA would happen if it is. Ask her parents if she leaves D7 with them while she runs some errands. Or she could sneak out at night when everyone’s asleep. I would have my friend go there and keep an eye on her.



Francesco said:


> We were to go next weekend but her brother called saying that if was possible to switch weeks, and she wanted to know if it was ok.


Maybe the OM needed to switch weeks. The timing is suspicious being right after she had lunch with the OM. Would her brother lie for her? If her brother wouldn’t then she’s probably telling the truth since it would be so easy to ask her brother about it.


----------



## G.J.

Chaparral said:


> Tell her someone called you and told you she was eating lunch with him everyday and saw him and her holding hands.


Again doing that MAY send it underground though...I would give it a little longer BUT I understand time is of the essence* so no time unaccounted for until facing her down*

Franco when you do confront I can tell you exactly what I did to get the information from my wife (Sicilian) when confronting with little evidence

book days off work next week as no way can you let it go longer and NO TIME UNACCOUNTABLE FOR HER


----------



## convert

Chaparral said:


> Call her brother and see what's going on. Not sure how to ask him but could this be an excuse to meet the other man.
> 
> I don't like waiting. I don't like confronting to soon but you may be able to stop this before it's too late.
> 
> He may have just been consoling her but it's too much she has met with him every day.
> I would ask her if she needs a divorce so she can be with him everyday.


I agree I would verify that is gets to her parents at the expected time.You did say she takes *S*7 right???


----------



## ConanHub

Detail junky here. She is taking their 7 year old son. Could be something suspicious but how often have they switched over the years?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## convert

brendanoco said:


> I honestly don't think its gone to a PA yet but it think it is starting to, the OM is testing the waters with some non sexual touching i.e hand on cheek and holding her hand for a few seconds and since she didnt respond negativly to his touches i think he will start to test the waters more. i think you need to confront sooner rather than later


I agree to this as well, at least I hope.

I think there would have been a kiss or more, IDK


----------



## Yeswecan

brendanoco said:


> I honestly don't think its gone to a PA yet but it think it is starting to, the OM is testing the waters with some non sexual touching i.e hand on cheek and holding her hand for a few seconds and since she didnt respond negativly to his touches i think he will start to test the waters more. i think you need to confront sooner rather than later


I would agree with this assessment. OM is working it. He is probably working the angle of lending a caring ear as she talks about ailing parents, etc. 

And yes, hand to cheek and other subtle touches without your W retracting is not a good sign.


----------



## Graywolf2

No matter what you say, when push comes to shove it will be hard to break up your family over handholding. 

Imagine your wife and kids crying. She’s telling you how sorry she is and it was only hand holding. Your family is pushing you to stay with her for the kids. 

You need to keep quiet and gather more proof. If you blow it up now you will stay with her and never know the truth.


----------



## convert

when you do confront, do not tell her what evidence you have.

maybe she will give up more info with a little persuasion or bluffing


----------



## Francesco

some clarifications...
I know for sure she is going to her parents, it's nothing new. We pass all are weekends out of city to go visit her's and mine. She called again just to say that S7 and her are on the bus. I spoke with S7 and he was happy as usual. 
I wont do nor say nothing until Sunday evening when it will be just the 2 of us.
I don't want to upset the weekend cause nothing good would come out of it. I need more proof before exploding! For sure my kids should not be around when i confront, and this is impossible during the weekend.
My intentions are to keep my mind occupied, My BIL has some land and i will be going there to work on it helping him out, and that will help me keep my mind busy.
Also i don't want to let her know yet what i Do know.... i need to think clearly, i need to study this situation better.


----------



## Yeswecan

Francesco said:


> ... i need to think clearly, i need to study this situation better.


Excellent plan for now.


----------



## convert

does she have any coworkers that you know and can maybe talk to?

maybe to get more info.

you know office gossip and all

I am just spit balling here, because you probably won't get any more evidence before sunday night.


----------



## Tobyboy

Graywolf2 said:


> If there no time for a quickie at lunch this is when a PA would happen if it is. Ask her parents if she leaves D7 with them while she runs some errands. Or she could sneak out at night when everyone’s asleep. I would have my friend go there and keep an eye on her.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the OM needed to switch weeks. The timing is suspicious being right after she had lunch with the OM. Would her brother lie for her? If her brother wouldn’t then she’s probably telling the truth since it would be so easy to ask her brother about it.


This is exactly what I was thinking!!!! 
How far do her parents live from the OM?

Do the parents have a car?

Someone needs to stakeout her parents house tonight!!!


----------



## Francesco

Graywolf2 said:


> If there no time for a quickie at lunch this is when a PA would happen if it is. Ask her parents if she leaves D7 with them while she runs some errands. Or she could sneak out at night when everyone’s asleep. I would have my friend go there and keep an eye on her.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the OM needed to switch weeks. The timing is suspicious being right after she had lunch with the OM. Would her brother lie for her? If her brother wouldn’t then she’s probably telling the truth since it would be so easy to ask her brother about it.



I don't think the OM would go in town to see her, small town by the way, and he is married with 3 kids. Plus my wife sleeps in the room next door of my BIL and it would impossible to sneak out at night and come back in without being noticed. When i arrive tomorrow, i will ask my BIL about the switch when we will be alone on his land


----------



## convert

has there been any unaccounted for time when this could have gone physical?
like girls night out?
maybe they both leave work early in the afternoon?


right know it only seems like the lunch is the only time.

unless they both played hooky from work at the same time.

it would be great to see her time card (if there is one)


----------



## Francesco

convert said:


> does she have any coworkers that you know and can maybe talk to?
> 
> maybe to get more info.
> 
> you know office gossip and all
> 
> I am just spit balling here, because you probably won't get any more evidence before sunday night.


I know a couple of female coworkers, but they are in good relationships, if i ask they will tell


----------



## Francesco

Tobyboy said:


> This is exactly what I was thinking!!!!
> How far do her parents live from the OM?
> 
> Do the parents have a car?
> 
> Someone needs to stakeout her parents house tonight!!!



The town is 1 hour and a half from where we live, they don't have a car, but my BIL does, and he would be with his fiance. I cant believe that can happen.... the om would have to make a 3 hour drive back and forth plus the time to stay... to risky for a married man, to risky for her to get caught


----------



## Francesco

convert said:


> has there been any unaccounted for time when this could have gone physical?
> like girls night out?
> maybe they both leave work early in the afternoon?
> 
> 
> right know it only seems like the lunch is the only time.
> 
> unless they both played hooky from work at the same time.
> 
> it would be great to see her time card (if there is one)


She doesn't have girls night out, she never wanted one.... say's that the kids need to see us always united in everything!
I am the only one who takes a night out (home by midnight) on wendsday's for my weekly soccer game.
Now you understand why I am going nuts! How could it be possible to cheat with this type of thinking?
The only possible time would be lunch.... in his car!


----------



## Q tip

Maybe anonymously inform his wife her husband is way too close to ladies at work. Work it from her end also. This is less risk.


----------



## Q tip

Where? Calling sick day and take day or afternoon off and not telling you. Check pay stubs for sick/vacation days you don't know of. 

Break room at work with a locking door...

Oral in cars works... But crowded city? I think not so much?


----------



## Tobyboy

Francesco said:


> The town is 1 hour and a half from where we live, they don't have a car, but my BIL does, and he would be with his fiance. I cant believe that can happen.... the om would have to make a 3 hour drive back and forth plus the time to stay... to risky for a married man, to risky for her to get caught


What about communicating with other devices? Space from you means no prying eyes!!! Have you checked her phone? 
Skype? Can you see who she calls or texts online?

Remember, it's just as easy for the OMs wife and family to leave for the weekend and leave the OM at "home" alone!!


----------



## convert

Well one thing for sure is you need to get all the info on this OM,

where he lives,
his address,
his phone number, ext.

I think you said your friend already got his home address.

because if this is even just an EA I would let the OM's wife know.
this will help break the EA up and gives another set of eyes on the matter.


----------



## Yeswecan

Francesco said:


> The town is 1 hour and a half from where we live, they don't have a car, but my BIL does, and he would be with his fiance. I cant believe that can happen.... the om would have to make a 3 hour drive back and forth plus the time to stay... to risky for a married man, to risky for her to get caught


From what you are telling us it would be very difficult for anything to go on outside of work. The issue at hand then is what happens on the lunch breaks. For example, the one day you did happen by. Or the day both were 15 past the 1 hour allotted for lunch. 

I think you will have to lean on your good friend again to get the answers.


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> Break room at work with a locking door...


don't understand this..


----------



## Francesco

convert said:


> Well one thing for sure is you need to get all the info on this OM,
> 
> where he lives,
> his address,
> his phone number, ext.
> 
> I think you said your friend already got his home address.
> 
> because if this is even just an EA I would let the OM's wife know.
> this will help break the EA up and gives another set of eyes on the matter.



I even know his social security number


----------



## convert

Francesco said:


> I even know his social security number


excellent


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> don't understand this..


Time alone at work behind locked door for some fun. Just ideas how they can find time


----------



## adriana

What I found the most puzzling in this story is that a mature, married mother of two is so open with dating her co-worker. Her other co-workers must have noticed that those two spend a lot of time together and most likely started gossiping about it. But she doesn't seem to be too concerned about her reputation despite that infidelity isn't a light matter among Italians.


----------



## Yeswecan

adriana said:


> What I found the most puzzling in this story is that a mature, married mother of two is so open with dating her co-worker. Her other co-workers must have noticed that those two spend a lot of time together and most likely started gossiping about it. But she doesn't seem to be too concerned about her reputation despite that infidelity isn't a light matter among Italians.


Is it really the coworkers place to expose? Perhaps to the coworkers it does appear to just be lunch? Gossip? Probably. But it is just gossip without proof positive.


----------



## Tobyboy

Do you think she is willing to quit her job immediately after you confront? There is no way she can continue working closely with this OM. Just no way!! Even if it hasn't gone physical yet.


----------



## ConanHub

adriana said:


> What I found the most puzzling in this story is that a mature, married mother of two is so open with dating her co-worker. Her other co-workers must have noticed that those two spend a lot of time together and most likely started gossiping about it. But she doesn't seem to be too concerned about her reputation despite that infidelity isn't a light matter among Italians.


Shoosh you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## convert

Tobyboy said:


> Do you think she is willing to quit her job immediately after you confront? There is no way she can continue working closely with this OM. Just no way!! Even if it hasn't gone physical yet.


very good point

probably a good paying job too.

that is why I think the OM's wife should know (even if it is just an EA), to get another set of eyes on the situation.

oh and do not tell your wife if/when you are going to tell the OM's wife.


----------



## Francesco

adriana said:


> What I found the most puzzling in this story is that a mature, married mother of two is so open with dating her co-worker. Her other co-workers must have noticed that those two spend a lot of time together and most likely started gossiping about it. But she doesn't seem to be too concerned about her reputation despite that infidelity isn't a light matter among Italians.


Yeah.... lunch dates!
Don't know about other co-workers knowing, but in the room where she works they a very few, and they get along well. They handle delicate paperwork dealing with public administration fraud, 
corruption and other crap like that.
Found out that he is one of the investigators that pass the paperwork to her. So ther relationship might seem normal to others.... and probably they know how to play it well if it's an affair


----------



## Chaparral

One poster's wife was doing her boss at work during the day in his office, her husband never caught it, the bosses wife did. One man had an affair for years before he was caught. Him and his affair partner would leave work earl and he was always home on time. Work place affairs are the hardest because they don't leave a trail. She thought she was busted the first time you saw and she turned white. Then you aught her again but acted normal. Now two more times. I don't think it's sexual yet but he is playing her.

If I caught my wife, having been through this with a fiancé before my current wife, holding hands with another man I would have already drug her out of the office and helped her pack her bags. Then I would let her take a poly. Hand holding, cheek caresses, cheek kisses between coworker , intimate lunch EVERY day. More than enough for me to pack her bags and see how she reacted to that.


Whatever you do, do not tell her how you found out so much. NEVER give up your sources.


----------



## Francesco

Tobyboy said:


> Do you think she is willing to quit her job immediately after you confront? There is no way she can continue working closely with this OM. Just no way!! Even if it hasn't gone physical yet.



Quiting would devastate her, but for sure she can be transferred


----------



## Francesco

Chaparral said:


> One poster's wife was doing her boss at work during the day in his office, her husband never caught it, the bosses wife did. One man had an affair for years before he was caught. Him and his affair partner would leave work earl and he was always home on time. Work place affairs are the hardest because they don't leave a trail. She thought she was busted the first time you saw and she turned white. Then you aught her again but acted normal. Now two more times. I don't think it's sexual yet but he is playing her.
> 
> If I caught my wife, having been through this with a fiancé before my current wife, holding hands with another man I would have already drug her out of the office and helped her pack her bags. Then I would let her take a poly. Hand holding, cheek caresses, cheek kisses between coworker , intimate lunch EVERY day. More than enough for me to pack her bags and see how she reacted to that.
> 
> 
> Whatever you do, do not tell her how you found out so much. NEVER give up your sources.



i agree. 2 Times i caught her getting out of his car, other 2 was seen by my friend, BUT AFTER MY FIRST 2 TIMES! This makes me think..


----------



## Francesco

Francesco said:


> i agree. 2 Times i caught her getting out of his car, other 2 was seen by my friend, BUT AFTER MY FIRST 2 TIMES! This makes me think..


What i mean is that since i saw them for 2 times in the car, the following times my friend saw them on feet. underground?


----------



## italianjob

Francesco, 
Not good update. I hoped this was in the early stages, but frankly it doesn't look likely. Either it's already gone physical or it's very very close.

If you want to really bust them you need more proof. It will be hard but I don't think you should confront yet. She may take it underground and you would never find out the Whole truth.

Keep up the surveillance during lunch hour, if your friend has days when he can't cover this, take time off work yourself. Does your wife have a monthly "presence sheet" (foglio presenze)? In some offices you get a copy of it every month, it states how many days off you have left and when you took them. If she has the last few ones at home you may discover if she took days off without telling you. It would seem the only way to carry on a PA.


----------



## Squeakr

Francesco said:


> Quiting would devastate her, but for sure she can be transferred


But what type of consequence is that really. She keeps everything basically the same except the location and this doesn't stop the fact that they may still have to work of projects/ papers together, or should that read "briefs" ??


----------



## G.J.

Francesco said:


> i agree. 2 Times i caught her getting out of his car, other 2 was seen by my friend, BUT AFTER MY FIRST 2 TIMES! This makes me think..


Must confront by mid week - next week latest or could go PA

if you don't get any more evidence (but I think they will go lunching again) please confront by wends night latest

your friend is covering Monday hopefully you will cover tues/wends or his friend.
*A full time watch* is in order from start to finish on the days to make sure nothing is missed before confrontation Weds night

I will post what I did on my confrontation nearer the time if nothing develops, though I think I have on a post some where


----------



## italianjob

Francesco said:


> What i mean is that since i saw them for 2 times in the car, the following times my friend saw them on feet. underground?


The fact that they were so confident around each other physically is a very bad sign. They might have been scared by the two times you caught them so they are cooling it off for a while. You need to know where they go when they take his car, but if they never take it in the next week it might be a bad sign, actually.


----------



## italianjob

G.J. said:


> Must confront by mid week - next week latest or could go PA
> 
> if you don't get any more evidence (but I think they will go lunching again) please confront by wends night latest
> 
> your friend is covering Monday hopefully you will cover tues/wends or his friend.
> *A full time watch* is in order from start to finish on the days to make sure nothing is missed before confrontation Weds night
> 
> I will post what I did on my confrontation nearer the time if nothing develops, though I think I have on a post some where


I think he needs to know more... It's true that he might catch it before it goes physical, but if it's already gone physical a rushed confrontation might make it more difficult to find out the Whole truth.


----------



## Graywolf2

Francesco said:


> I actually told her the other night why she be having lunch with always the same person and not with others, and she just laughed at that saying that she knew that i was going to ask...
> What she said was that *they are working on some papers that need to be done very soon, so thats why they have lunch together*.


Are the papers done yet?


----------



## G.J.

italianjob said:


> I think he needs to know more... It's true that he might catch it before it goes physical, but if it's already gone physical a rushed confrontation might make it more difficult to find out the Whole truth.


I wouldn't want to take the chance if I wanted to save my marriage

Italian girls espeicelly if they have come from small towns are very unworldly and have their heads in the house mostly no matter what age


----------



## drifting on

Francesco

What a familiar story I am reading, gut screaming something is amiss, they work together, lunches together, who knows how much time together at work, confronting could help or hamper your efforts. Your gut tearing you apart as you try to find the smoking gun. Your mind racing with thoughts of how far has it gone, how long and so on. I've been there. First take a deep breath and slow yourself down. STAY HERE AT TAM. You are getting good sound advice and you have a friend helping you. My WW also had an affair with a co-worker for six months. I couldn't find any evidence on any home electronics. Why? WW used only work electronics. Probably the same as yours. 

My only advice is to prepare to expose to OM wife. My WW is Italian and I've been the recipient of when they get angry. You want OM BW to scrutinize every move he makes. The only problem I see is when to expose. It may be a PA or it may still be an EA. the touching in public and without her flinching at all, in my opinion it is a PA. You have talked about how she made you wait for a date, my WW was the same. But when it came to the affair it only took a handful of compliments and next thing you know it's physical. So take a little time and I do mean a little to get your head together. Then begin to prepare yourself for the war you didn't know you were in. My WW also had lunch three to four days a week with her OM, I hate lunch to this very day. Good luck Francesco, I hope it's not what I really think this is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## G.J.

> *Francesco*
> I actually told her the other night why she be having lunch with always the same person and not with others, and *she just laughed at that* saying that she knew that i was going to ask...
> What she said was that they are working on some papers that need to be done very soon, so thats why they have lunch together.


No shock at all even though she was expecting the question, in fact laughing

would not the response if a PA be anger at the suggestion some thing was going on, unless she is a very good liar

I'm really hoping its boundary issues


----------



## italianjob

G.J. said:


> I wouldn't want to take the chance if I wanted to save my marriage
> 
> Italian girls espeicelly if they have come from small towns are very unworldly and have their heads in the house mostly no matter what age


I think Francesco doesn't live in a small town. 
I also think that if he found out it's already physical it would be the end for sure and maybe it would also be the end if he knew she had a motel date or something even if it wasn't consummated. by what he wrote before.
I think I know how Italian girls are, I live in Italy since the day I was born


----------



## Chaparral

Graywolf2 said:


> Are the papers done yet?


Doesn't appear to be talking about work so that's a confirmed lie. 

Hmmmmm, he's an investigator, he's pulling the old James Bond routine on her. He's slick.


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> Francesco,
> Not good update. I hoped this was in the early stages, but frankly it doesn't look likely. Either it's already gone physical or it's very very close.
> 
> If you want to really bust them you need more proof. It will be hard but I don't think you should confront yet. She may take it underground and you would never find out the Whole truth.
> 
> Keep up the surveillance during lunch hour, if your friend has days when he can't cover this, take time off work yourself. Does your wife have a monthly "presence sheet" (foglio presenze)? In some offices you get a copy of it every month, it states how many days off you have left and when you took them. If she has the last few ones at home you may discover if she took days off without telling you. It would seem the only way to carry on a PA.


my head is spinning right now while i'm typing. 
Cant think straight. i need to stay calm... very calm because when something bothers me I show it. So i need to concentrate on myself so that tomorrow she wont notice nothing.
The work sheet remains in her office, they don't give a copy.
There is much surveillance, and every out going office needs to be badged. 

I think that something physical has happened. Probably not every day, but once in while yes. And i think that they make it some kind of side satisfaction just for a distraction. I think that it's only something that they need as a vent valve situation... don't know if i can ex plane it better.
I think that neither of them want a divorce and go live there life's in fantasy land, my wife has all a woman would want. A good husband, fantastic kids, a great job and nice house, no problems that i know of...

Now, if all that i think is true.... the problem will be me! Because even if we have all of this, it will be to much of a deal breaker.


----------



## Yeswecan

If I remember correctly, Francesco said his W never spoke of this coworker. How can that be if they work closely together? This is concerning.


----------



## Tobyboy

I think you caught it early, but it's escalating rapidly!!!!
If this was physical, he would have tried to steal a kiss when alone. It appears that this other guy is really moving fast. 

He has established trust. 
He is giving her undivided attention. 
Probably complimenting her. 
Has now initiated touch. 

By now your wife is having feeling towards him. He is on her mind all the time. She is excited about seeing him!!!

My concern is that when you confront, you'll get the "ILYBNILWY" or "I haven't been happy for years" line. 

You must kill this this soon before the feelings get deeper!!! Monday I would follow her and the OM and confront them together. After confrontation, you both leave together and talk! No going back to work for either of you!!


----------



## G.J.

italianjob said:


> I think Francesco doesn't live in a small town.
> I also think that if he found out it's already physical it would be the end for sure and maybe it would also be the end if he knew she had a motel date or something even if it wasn't consummated. by what he wrote before.
> I think I know how Italian girls are, I live in Italy since the day I was born


Me I only visit couple of times a year as part of my wife's baggage as we normally go Sicily and do the relation's rounds...always come back 7-12lbs heavier

The village she was born in is like stepping back 100 years

Sundays they still all get dressed up and walk around the church and the lads have such a hard time chatting up the girls, I feel for them


----------



## Yeswecan

Tobyboy said:


> I think you caught it early, but it's escalating rapidly!!!!
> If this was physical, he would have tried to steal a kiss when alone. It appears that this other guy is really moving fast.
> 
> *He has established trust.
> He is giving her undivided attention.
> Probably complimenting her.
> Has now initiated touch. *
> 
> By now your wife is having feeling towards him. He is on her mind all the time. She is excited about seeing him!!!
> 
> My concern is that when you confront, you'll get the "ILYBNILWY" or "I haven't been happy for years" line.
> 
> You must kill this this soon before the feelings get deeper!!! Monday I would follow her and the OM and confront them together. After confrontation, you both leave together and talk! No going back to work for either of you!!


I agree with this.


----------



## G.J.

Francesco said:


> *I think that something physical has happened*. Probably not every day, but once in while yes. And i think that they make it some kind of side satisfaction just for a distraction.


Why do you think some thing has happened ?????


----------



## italianjob

G.J. said:


> Me I only visit couple of times a year as part of my wife's baggage as we normally go Sicily and do the relation's rounds...always come back 7-12lbs heavier
> 
> The village she was born in is like stepping back 100 years
> 
> Sundays they still all get dressed up and walk around the church and the lads have such a hard time chatting up the girls, I feel for them


Ah, ok...
Northern Italy is quite different from Sicily, and in big cities and also medium sized cities girls are as "modern" as in the rest of Europe... Well probably even more so than in some US states...


----------



## Yeswecan

Francesco said:


> Now, if all that i think is true.... the problem will be me! Because even if we have all of this, it will be to much of a deal breaker.


Hold on here, Francesco....you are not the problem. You may own 50% of the marriage. W own 100% of what may be going on at her place of employment.


----------



## G.J.

italianjob said:


> Ah, ok...
> Northern Italy is quite different from Sicily, and in big cities and also medium sized cities girls are as "modern" as in the rest of Europe... Well probably even more so than in some US states...


oh...that sucks


----------



## Francesco

Yeswecan said:


> If I remember correctly, Francesco said his W never spoke of this coworker. How can that be if they work closely together? This is concerning.


Lets call OM "stronzo", so she never mentioned the name stronzo but just thing's she does with the common name of coworkers.


----------



## G.J.

Francesco said:


> Lets call OM "stronzo", so she never mentioned the name stronzo but just thing's she does with the common name of coworkers.


It does look bad BUT at the minute its not some thing to D over, 

So stop beating your self up and be a little positive as if its a boundary issues you can give him a slap and tickle and I'm sure your wife in future will not do anything like this again


----------



## italianjob

Yeswecan said:


> Hold on here, Francesco....you are not the problem. You may own 50% of the marriage. W own 100% of what may be going on at her place of employment.


I think he meant that if she thinks she can get some on the side and have the security of her family, he will be the problem because he considers what he thinks she might have done a dealbreaker and would file for D.


----------



## Yeswecan

italianjob said:


> I think he meant that if she thinks she can get some on the side and have the security of her family, he will be the problem because he considers what he thinks she might have done a dealbreaker and would file for D.


Thank you for clarifying!


----------



## italianjob

G.J. said:


> It does look bad BUT at the minute its not some thing to D over,
> 
> So stop beating your self up and be a little positive as if its a boundary issues you can give him a slap and tickle and I'm sure your wife in future will not do anything like this again


That's why I think he needs to know more. If he confronts now and she doesn't admit to anything physical he will Always have a doubt and life will be impossible for both of them. If he finds out more he can put it to rest if it turns out to be a boundaries issue.


----------



## Francesco

Tobyboy said:


> I think you caught it early, but it's escalating rapidly!!!!
> If this was physical, he would have tried to steal a kiss when alone. It appears that this other guy is really moving fast.
> 
> He has established trust.
> He is giving her undivided attention.
> Probably complimenting her.
> Has now initiated touch.
> 
> By now your wife is having feeling towards him. He is on her mind all the time. She is excited about seeing him!!!
> 
> My concern is that when you confront, you'll get the "ILYBNILWY" or "I haven't been happy for years" line.
> 
> You must kill this this soon before the feelings get deeper!!! Monday I would follow her and the OM and confront them together. After confrontation, you both leave together and talk! No going back to work for either of you!!


i can tell you something... if they got physical, and if she has feelings for him good for her cause she can have him, but if she hasn't have feeling's then then she's really stupid for trowing 
away our marriege


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> i think he meant that if she thinks she can get some on the side and have the security of her family, he will be the problem because he considers what he thinks she might have done a dealbreaker and would file for d.


esattamente!


----------



## Francesco

ANYWAY, i'm cooling off. I think that i will take my D15 out tonight for a pizza! 
She makes me smile always, and i need it right now.


----------



## italianjob

Francesco said:


> ANYWAY, i'm cooling off. I think that i will take my D15 out tonight for a pizza!
> She makes me smile always, and i need it right now.


Yes, you need to.
Stay cool and wait to know more.


----------



## Tobyboy

What makes you think it's gone physical?

She doesn't leave early to work. Doesn't stay late. The only time they have to fool around is lunch break. And from the current surveillance, nothing physical has been observe, other than brief hand holding and a face caress!


----------



## Chaparral

Tobyboy said:


> What makes you think it's gone physical?
> 
> She doesn't leave early to work. Doesn't stay late. The only time they have to fool around is lunch break. And from the current surveillance, nothing physical has been observe, other than brief hand holding and a face caress!


There are lots of places close to eat. Where do they go when they take his car?

She is totally comfortable with him carressing her cheek and holding her hand. It looks bad but other indications are it isn't physical. However, there are other threads here where the wife was totally devoted to her husband and was loving the side action too. Rdmu had no clue until he saw her hide her phone screen one time. There have been plenty of others that were totally devestated when caught including at least one suicide and several suicide attempts.


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, his friend thinks it looks so bad he wanted to tell him in person not over the phone.


----------



## Chaparral

It would be great if your friend would take someone along Monday your wife doesn't know that can get close enough to hear what they are talking about.


----------



## Tobyboy

Chaparral said:


> Btw, his friend thinks it looks so bad he wanted to tell him in person not over the phone.


True. But is there something else that Frank is not telling us? Is this just his gut feeling?


----------



## convert

Francesco, is this something that you could talk to your BIL about?

he probably would not know of anything.

I guess it is to soon yet for that


----------



## convert

Chaparral said:


> It would be great if your friend would take someone along Monday your wife doesn't know that can get close enough to hear what they are talking about.


that is an excellent Idea


----------



## Tobyboy

Chaparral said:


> It would be great if your friend would take someone along Monday your wife doesn't know that can get close enough to hear what they are talking about.


That is a great idea!!! Maybe a woman that can approach them after she's heard their conversation and say something like "you two seem like a very loving couple". Then watch their reaction.


----------



## Chaparral

Tobyboy said:


> True. But is there something else that Frank is not telling us? Is this just his gut feeling?


My feeling is it hasn't gone physical, maybe 70/30. If it were my wife I wouldnt be that objective. 

I hope this isn't triggering other people as bad as it is me. It just goes to show that even after thirty years, it never really goes away.


----------



## convert

Tobyboy said:


> That is a great idea!!! Maybe a woman that can approach them after she's heard their conversation and say something like "you two seem like a very loving couple". Then watch their reaction.


and maybe with a VAR


----------



## raven3321

Yeah, I'm in the nothing has happened physically yet camp. However, like others have said, OM is building affection. 

Normally, I think it's wisdom to wait and gather info before confronting. Not in this case. If OM is chatting her up and being a "friend" to her, her affections for him is growing. I think it's time to strike now before emotionally she's in too deep. It may already be too late honestly. You personally caught her twice. Any sane person would have backed off by now. They haven't missed a beat. When people go beyond standard boundaries despite the spouse knowing, they're emotionally invested to a degree they can't stop. They're addicted. 

Normally in an affair they take it underground if you confront too early. However, I don't think there's anything to take underground yet. If it isn't yet a physical relationship, it should be confronted now before that all important first kiss. He easily could have leaned over and kissed her at the beach.....perfect setting. He merely brushed her cheek. He established a physical presence but apparently hasn't yet kissed her. The next time, he will. Once that kiss happens, she's hooked for sure. Confront now!!

Just as an aside, how is it that you caught them, she saw you, reacted both times in a guilty way, and the subject never came up at home? She knows you know now.


----------



## italianjob

Tobyboy said:


> True. But is there something else that Frank is not telling us? Is this just his gut feeling?


I don't think so... 
I would have serious concerns too. Married people don't behave physically like that with coworkers normally. The fact that they're doing it in public means they're getting careless about it so it's probably been a while since they gained that kind of confidence.
I would think that they have kissed and made out for sure. I hope they didn't have sex already, but this hope is mostly based on the fact that it sounds logistically quite difficult, and that there is no other red flag beside these "lunch dates". Obviously we've seen on this board that any obstacle can be surpassed.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Francesco said:


> I even know his social security number


You better not confront without enough evidence otherwise, as others have pointed out, you will get nothing and it may underground.

There is a chance but it is a long shot and without hard proof may be a mistake.

As you have OM information, call hi and tell him that your wife spilled out everything and if he wants to keep his marriage and job, no expositio his wife and workplace, he better tell s you his version of what has been going on. since when? kissing? how many times? etc.

IMO the interaction your friend witnessed may be the beginning of an EA but, giving a second thought, ut seems like a consolidated couple having lunch being careful to not attract attention over them. I believe this as the natural way she seems to have reacted to his touch and holding her hand besides IMO this kind of interaction when nothing has happened takes place before living with him alone in his car for more than a hour and being caught by you.


----------



## convert

Chaparral said:


> My feeling is it hasn't gone physical, maybe 70/30. If it were my wife I wouldnt be that objective.
> 
> *I hope this isn't triggering other people as bad as it is me*. It just goes to show that even after thirty years, it never really goes away.


yea, I need a drink

I tell you what Francesco has a good friend


----------



## Tobyboy

Chaparral said:


> My feeling is it hasn't gone physical, maybe 70/30. If it were my wife I wouldnt be that objective.
> 
> I hope this isn't triggering other people as bad as it is me. It just goes to show that even after thirty years, it never really goes away.


I have to admit that it's triggering me also!! 15 years out myself. 
This is very similar to my sitch!!!


----------



## z_man

italianjob said:


> I don't think so...
> I would have serious concerns too. Married people don't behave physically like that with coworkers normally. The fact that they're doing it in public means they're getting careless about it so it's probably been a while since they gained that kind of confidence.
> I would think that they have kissed and made out for sure. I hope they didn't have sex already, but this hope is mostly based on the fact that it sounds logistically quite difficult, and that there is no other red flag beside these "lunch dates". Obviously we've seen on this board that any obstacle can be surpassed.


The question in my mind is how long has this been going on? 

The longer these two have been "lunching" the more likely the affair progresses with physical. This is, or course, stating the obvious.


----------



## Suspecting2014

One more idea

Open an email account using OMW information (name) make this email looks like it is from OMW. Then send and email to your wife telling the next:

That your are OMW.

That she has discover the affair.

Better your wife not contact him again of OMW is going to expose to You and her Job.

To better tell her by this email, what has being going on and better matches his husband or will expose to you.

This way you may get something, by email (the fake account) or your wife coming clean.

Considerations:

Send it while being with her, this way if OM contacts her after tonight, that maybe he will as she is away, and blow this strategy.

Acces her mobil bill by internet and compare the numbers with OM to see if they talk. they may use other ways but at least you will know if thay have being talking before sending the email.


----------



## brendanoco

italianjob said:


> I don't think so...
> I would have serious concerns too. Married people don't behave physically like that with coworkers normally. The fact that they're doing it in public means they're getting careless about it so it's probably been a while since they gained that kind of confidence.
> *I would think that they have kissed and made out for sure*. I hope they didn't have sex already, but this hope is mostly based on the fact that it sounds logistically quite difficult, and that there is no other red flag beside these "lunch dates". Obviously we've seen on this board that any obstacle can be surpassed.


why do you think that?


----------



## Tobyboy

z_man said:


> The question in my mind is how long has this been going on?
> 
> The longer these two have been "lunching" the more likely the affair progresses with physical. This is, or course, stating the obvious.


That is what I would be worried about. Funny how during a lunch break with others coworkers, they were left alone in the end! Coincidence?????


----------



## Francesco

Tobyboy said:


> True. But is there something else that Frank is not telling us? Is this just his gut feeling?


Yes, gut feeling ----
but also what has been already said here. Out of her normal behavior


----------



## drifting on

Chaparral said:


> My feeling is it hasn't gone physical, maybe 70/30. If it were my wife I wouldnt be that objective.
> 
> I hope this isn't triggering other people as bad as it is me. It just goes to show that even after thirty years, it never really goes away.


Sorry but I triggered on page one!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Francesco

convert said:


> Francesco, is this something that you could talk to your BIL about?
> 
> he probably would not know of anything.
> 
> I guess it is to soon yet for that


yes very to soon. he is old fashion and wouldn't take it well


----------



## italianjob

Suspecting2014 said:


> One more idea
> 
> Open an email account using OMW information (name) make this email looks like it is from OMW. Then send and email to your wife telling the next:
> 
> That your are OMW.
> 
> That she has discover the affair.
> 
> Better your wife not contact him again of OMW is going to expose to You and her Job.
> 
> To better tell her by this email, what has being going on and better matches his husband or will expose to you.
> 
> This way you may get something, by email (the fake account) or your wife coming clean.
> 
> Considerations:
> 
> Send it while being with her, this way if OM contacts her after tonight, that maybe he will as she is away, and blow this strategy.
> 
> Acces her mobil bill by internet and compare the numbers with OM to see if they talk. they may use other ways but at least you will know if thay have being talking before sending the email.


I don't know if it's executable, but this sounds like a good idea to me.
This should be done when you and her are in the same house and there are no plans to go anywhere for either of you, possibly during a weekend, so you might see if there is an effort to contact the om. on a workday she may just wait for next morning to talk to him.


----------



## italianjob

brendanoco said:


> why do you think that?


by the way their physical behavior was described.
You don't act lovey dovey with someone who is not your spouse if you've just been talking IMO.

I mean, his friend was so impressed by how they acted that he went to tell him in person instead of calling.

Sex maybe not, but I think it's almost impossible that nothing physical happened.


----------



## brendanoco

italianjob said:


> by the way their physical behavior was described.
> You don't act lovey dovey with someone who is not your spouse if you've just been talking IMO.
> 
> I mean, his friend was so impressed by how they acted that he went to tell him in person instead of calling.
> 
> Sex maybe not, but I think it's almost impossible that nothing physical happened.


i dont think touching her face and holding her hand for a couple of seconds is lovey dovey. maybe something did physically happen but i dont think its impossible that nothing has happened...yet


----------



## Graywolf2

Don’t tell her that your friend followed them. Don’t tell her anything you don’t have to. (i.e. Don’t get mad and spill your guts). 

You don’t need the pictures unless she denies that they had lunch again (no hand holding in photos). Let her think that someone randomly saw them and asked you what your wife was doing holding another man’s hand. Don’t say who saw them. 

See what she has to say and hold back that they also saw him loving stroking her cheek. She may come up with some BS about hand holding that doesn’t fit stroking her cheek.


----------



## italianjob

brendanoco said:


> i dont think touching her face and holding her hand for a couple of seconds is lovey dovey. maybe something did physically happen but i dont think its impossible that nothing has happened...yet


Your opinion; I read it differently. Something is on, IMO. Let's hope we're still on the "light" side.


----------



## Tobyboy

Frank, 
At the speed this is escalating, Monday would be the day for YOU to follow them. The build up of not seeing each other during the weekend could be the turning point for your wife. If she is "spacey, detached" this weekend, you will know why!!!

It's a double edge sword..... Confront Monday and to try prevent a PA, but not knowing if it has already. 

That's what I did in my sitch. I confronted the day before my fww was to meet the OM. It took a long time to confirm it wasn't physical before.(polygraph). A PA is a dealbreaker for me. 

Wait to long.....risk going PA. 
Confront now....expect lies.


----------



## Francesco

i am reading every thread... i'm elaborating every thing you guy's are writing.
and i am sorry if someone gets upset about this, wasn't my intention.
I like the idea of the email in the name of the OMW also.... think about it.
Monday it will be the coworker of my friend that will go, and she doesn't know him.
my friend and his coworkers are in the police, a special force where they are used to follow peaple.... it's called "catturandi"

When the touching was made, it was not at the beach but on a BENCH.

I feel less upset now as i had time to swallow the news. In about 1 hour she will call me when i get home. She always does when she leaves on fridays to see if i got home safe (i also do a dangerous job as a security guard). Then again before she goes to bed for the goodnight also with my S7.
I will tell her that i'm taking D15 for a pizza and in the meantime hide my emotions


----------



## Graywolf2

Francesco said:


> I don't think the OM would go in town to see her, small town by the way, and he is married with 3 kids. Plus my wife sleeps in the room next door of my BIL and it would impossible to sneak out at night and come back in without being noticed. When i arrive tomorrow, i will ask my BIL about the switch when we will be alone on his land


Also ask him if your wife leaves your 7 year old with him or her parents while she runs some errands. Are there any hotels that they could check into during their lunch break? Can they be alone some place at work? Are there any opportunities when you go to see your parents?


----------



## convert

Francesco, we are not upset with you.

we trigger from our own demands

It really sucks being a betrayed spouse

I hope and pray that it is not your case

I am so hoping this is nothing but a boundary problem


----------



## G.J.

Chaparral said:


> My feeling is it hasn't gone physical, maybe 70/30. If it were my wife I wouldnt be that objective.
> 
> I hope this isn't triggering other people as bad as it is me. It just goes to show that even after thirty years, it never really goes away.


Triggering...I had a blow up today with my wife around 3:00p.m. over the phone off the back of this I now realize just after I read about what Franco's friend had witnessed

All because she didn't say love you at the end of a telephone conversation


----------



## Francesco

Code:







Graywolf2 said:


> Also ask him if your wife leaves your 7 year old with him or her parents while she runs some errands. Are there any hotels that they could check into during their lunch break? Can they be alone some place at work? Are there any opportunities when you go to see your parents?


during lunch breaks they can go everywhere in 5 minuts car drive. at my or her parents that is almost impossible


----------



## Francesco

heading back home...i will be off line for while.


----------



## Tobyboy

Frank
What's your dealbreaker?
Hugging?
Kissing?
Heavy petting?
Oral sex?
Full on sex? 
Emotional?

To me it was kissing! That's physical to me. It didn't get to that level but it was heading that way quickly!! I don't regret confronting before their meeting. If anything, she was more embarrassed than remorseful when I first confronted her with proof.


----------



## G.J.

Francesco said:


> yes very to soon. he is old fashion and wouldn't take it well


I can't go into too much detail but two of my wife's brothers allegedly took some one for a country ride one night and he was last heard of in France with his wife at a new company shortly after


----------



## italianjob

Something's happening and it's not totally innocent. At the very least a deadly serious talk and a change in job assignment will probably be unavoidable. But I wouldn't jump the gun and start thinking about hotel rooms yet... Let Francesco find out more...


----------



## convert

Francesco said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> during lunch breaks they can go everywhere in 5 minuts car drive. at my or her parents that is almost impossible


can your policeman friend check nearest hotels for any checkins (probably used a fake name) would need his photo.

start with the direction you lost them in traffic.

maybe this is too soon to do.

I still think(hope) it has not went that far.


----------



## Graywolf2

Francesco said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> during lunch breaks they can go everywhere in 5 minuts car drive. at my or her parents that is almost impossible


Possible ideas:
1.	Put a GPS on the OM’s car
2.	Have your police friends show a photo of the OM or your wife to the hotel desks near her work.

The best hotel would be close and have parking difficult to see from the street. They wouldn’t want a coworker to accidently stumble across his car in a hotel parking lot. The perfect place would be a hotel next to a restaurant. They could park at the restaurant and go to a hotel.


----------



## convert

italianjob said:


> Something's happening and it's not totally innocent. At the very least a deadly serious talk and a change in job assignment will probably be unavoidable. But I wouldn't jump the gun and start thinking about hotel rooms yet... Let Francesco find out more...


Yes I must apologize to Francesco,
with all this triggering from my own experience I am speculating to much and I hope I am not making you feel worse


----------



## italianjob

Francesco saw them in OM's car, two things are possible:
- there's a place where they like to eat that is at a distance (I work in a town center and there are plenty of places to have lunch near my office, but every once in a while we take the car to get to a place we really like that is a little further away) and sometimes they go there.
- they go somewhere else.

The two times Francesco's friend was watching they didn't take the car.
- maybe because they only go to that place once in a while.
- maybe because they want to take it slow after Francesco saw them twice.

The mystery will be solved if they take the car once in the next few days. 
Going around showing pics at this stage could draw unwanted attention IMO.


----------



## Chaparral

Since you saw them come back in the car doesn't mean they didn't leave work early. Her white face is very troubling. But to be with him every lunch is beyond belief.


----------



## Dogbert

Even in touchy feely societies, there are physical boundaries that are no no.


----------



## Graywolf2

italianjob said:


> The mystery will be solved if they take the car once in the next few days.
> Going around showing pics at this stage could draw unwanted attention IMO.


:iagree:

GPS is the way to go. I only mentioned showing the photos at all is because he has police friends. They don’t even need a hotel if they can find a secluded place to park.

Police friends should be able to set him up with GPS or he can look up real time GPS tracker on Amazon that attaches to the outside of the car. He never has to touch the car again. He can check up on his computer. He might be able to find the hotel or their favorate parking spot.


----------



## Tobyboy

italianjob said:


> Francesco saw them in OM's car, two things are possible:
> - there's a place where they like to eat that is at a distance (I work in a town center and there are plenty of places to have lunch near my office, but every once in a while we take the car to get to a place we really like that is a little further away) and sometimes they go there.
> - they go somewhere else.
> 
> The two times Francesco's friend was watching they didn't take the car.
> - maybe because they only go to that place once in a while.
> - maybe because they want to take it slow after Francesco saw them twice.
> 
> The mystery will be solved if they take the car once in the next few days.
> Going around showing pics at this stage could draw unwanted attention IMO.


And that's why I suggest that Francesco accompanies the friend when they follow her. He needs to see it with his own eyes! That way there will be no doubt, no misinterpretations of events, and confrontation on his terms!!!


----------



## JustAnotherMan

They have been out to lunch every day you checked. They could easily have found quiet places to park. They could easily have taken an hour or two off together and gone some place private. They have had ample opportunity. He is stroking the cheek and holding the hand of his lover....sorry. JMHO BTDT


----------



## italianjob

Tobyboy said:


> And that's why I suggest that Francesco accompanies the friend when they follow her. He needs to see it with his own eyes! That way there will be no doubt, no misinterpretations of events, and confrontation on his terms!!!


The problem is that it's unpredictable when they will take the car at this point, and I guess Francesco can take only so many hours off work.

I liked Suspecting's idea of the fake OMW email; her reaction and body Language over the weekend would speak volumes.


----------



## convert

italianjob said:


> The problem is that it's unpredictable when they will take the car at this point, and I guess Francesco can take only so many hours off work.
> 
> I liked Suspecting's idea of the fake OMW email; her reaction and body Language over the weekend would speak volumes.


I kind of like the fake email too.

how you word it??

would you mention that Francesco's wife need to tell her husband or I will???

If anyone is having trouble keeping up Suspecting Post #237 talks about doing the fake email


----------



## G.J.

Leave it and keep watch with friends and your self if need be till wends night and confront 
do the email thing wends night soon as you get home if you have too 
to put pressure on when you have the talk


----------



## Suspecting2014

Francesco said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Graywolf2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also ask him if your wife leaves your 7 year old with him or her parents while she runs some errands. Are there any hotels that they could check into during their lunch break? Can they be alone some place at work? Are there any opportunities when you go to see your parents?
> 
> 
> 
> during lunch breaks they can go everywhere in 5 minuts car drive. at my or her parents that is almost impossible
Click to expand...

Very suspcious use the car for luch twice and being late...


----------



## italianjob

convert said:


> I kind of like the fake email too.
> 
> how you word it??
> 
> would you mention that Francesco's wife need to tell her husband or I will???


That might be a good idea, but if she has a way to contact the OM without Francesco noticing it might also give away who is the author.

Kept more vague they might panic even if they know it's not the OMW, because it could be a coworker or someone who noticed them. Furthermore, cheater lie to themselves, she might be telling herself that it's not cheating if they did not have sex, so she might even tell her husband that some crazy woman is accusing her of something she didn't and he might end up getting some admissions about how things are.
That said, if she doesn't mention it at all and becomes nervous you have a lot of answers without asking...


----------



## z_man

convert said:


> would you mention that Francesco's wife need to tell her husband or I will???



MHO is that an email from the OMW would easily be explained away to Francesco without physical evidence (photos, emails, texts) with a simple, the OMW is crazy jealous and just causing problems. 

Also, once Francesco's wife and the OM talk, the gig is up.


----------



## convert

G.J., has a good point maybe leave the fake email thing till Wednesday night when they are together.

this would give a few more days to investigate/tail????


----------



## convert

z_man said:


> MHO is that an email from the OMW would easily be explained away to Francesco without physical evidence (photos, emails, texts) with a simple, the OMW is crazy jealous and just causing problems.
> 
> Also, once Francesco's wife and the OM talk, the gig is up.


True

unless as Italianjob says if she would go all quite


----------



## G.J.

Attach the photos


----------



## Graywolf2

italianjob said:


> *The mystery will be solved if they take the car once in the next few days*.


Do nothing except GPS the OM's car. Don't drive them underground.


----------



## Tobyboy

The email can be denied by both parties. It won't work at this point. 
Monday it will go down!!! The dude has been "grooming" her and will make his move on Monday!!! He needs to be there at all costs!!


----------



## G.J.

Tobyboy said:


> The email can be denied by both parties. It won't work at this point.
> Monday it will go down!!! The dude has been "grooming" her and will make his move on Monday!!! He needs to be there at all costs!!


still say if she's covered fully all day mon/tues/wends she can do nothing as she's covered all the time.

wends night is confrontation

use the email that night as he will get home early if he books time off work 

*send email with photos* and what ever evidence he has gathered to that point

but the way he handles it is *asking her not showing her* as he knows enough to get a lot of info out of her


----------



## italianjob

Tobyboy said:


> The email can be denied by both parties. It won't work at this point.
> Monday it will go down!!! The dude has been "grooming" her and will make his move on Monday!!! He needs to be there at all costs!!


What makes you think Monday will be such an important day?


----------



## G.J.

Just an add to my last post

she must be covered all the time and if anything looks like its going to PA then intervention must happen there and then


----------



## italianjob

IDK In my mind the email idea would work like this:

- Francesco opens an e mail account that looks like it belongs to the OMW (he has all the data on the OM, I guess he has or can get the data on OMW as well).
- From that account he sends an email to his wife introducing himself as the OMW stating that she knows she's been ****ing the OM, and threatening to expose.
- Francesco acts like he knows nothing and just watches how his wife reacts.
- G.J.'s idea to attach photos might be interesting, given that they can't be traced to Francesco or his friend, as his wife and OM could really panic.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Tobyboy said:


> *The email can be denied by both parties.* It won't work at this point.
> Monday it will go down!!! The dude has been "grooming" her and will make his move on Monday!!! He needs to be there at all costs!!


Cant be deny if WW and OM are not in contact at all, like next sunday morning so she cant call him. In fact as the email will tell that if she contact OM again there will be consequences she wont until next monday... when everything will fall apart.

If she has nothing to hide she will show Francesco the email rigth away.

The idea is to get a full confesion by WW, by mail or coming clean.

If nothig has happened then Francescos wife will show Om the mail and ask her to talk to his wife. No one of them will know who sent it ever.

As far as we know there is somethign going on and this email will have a great impact.


----------



## G.J.

italianjob said:


> IDK In my mind the email idea would work like this:
> 
> - Francesco opens an e mail account that looks like it belongs to the OMW (he has all the data on the OM, I guess he has or can get the data on OMW as well).
> - From that account he sends an email to his wife introducing himself as the OMW stating that she knows she's been ****ing the OM, and threatening to expose.
> - Francesco acts like he knows nothing and just watches how his wife reacts.
> - G.J.'s idea to attach photos might be interesting, given that they can't be traced to Francesco or his friend, as his wife and OM could really panic.



And done on the wends night (wends as it gives a few days for more evidence and full logistical surveillance)
to give more pressure before he has the confrontation shortly after she opens it and reads it


----------



## Chaparral

Tobyboy said:


> The email can be denied by both parties. It won't work at this point.
> Monday it will go down!!! The dude has been "grooming" her and will make his move on Monday!!! He needs to be there at all costs!!


At this point there is fifty fifty chance they will take the car Monday . Someone will have to be able to keep up with them.


----------



## G.J.

Chaparral said:


> At this point there is fifty fifty chance they will take the car Monday . Someone will have to be able to keep up with them.


that's a must AND be prepared to intervene
Full; surveillance...as i said before take a few days off Franco 
you can back up the guy at dinner 
so if one loses the other has a chance
or G,P,S,his car in the morning


----------



## Tobyboy

italianjob said:


> What makes you think Monday will be such an important day?


Just something I picked up from reading on sites such as TAM for years and by my own experience. When it comes to workplace affairs, Mondays are significant after being deprived of that "cheating high" all weekend!!!


----------



## Chaparral

italianjob said:


> IDK In my mind the email idea would work like this:
> 
> - Francesco opens an e mail account that looks like it belongs to the OMW (he has all the data on the OM, I guess he has or can get the data on OMW as well).
> - From that account he sends an email to his wife introducing himself as the OMW stating that she knows she's been ****ing the OM, and threatening to expose.
> - Francesco acts like he knows nothing and just watches how his wife reacts.
> - G.J.'s idea to attach photos might be interesting, given that they can't be traced to Francesco or his friend, as his wife and OM could really panic.


The pictures don't show anything conclusive. What if it's an anonymous email with pictures by a concerned "friend."


----------



## italianjob

The idea would be that if she doesn't mention the mail to Francesco, becomes nervous and/or tries to get out of the house with some lame excuse (to contact OM) he will know that what is going on is quite serious. 
If what's going on is not as serious as the accusations in the mail she might decide to avoid worse damage and come clean about what's really happening.


----------



## Chaparral

Has she texted or called you at work around lunch time to make sure you are at work?

Does she ever leave home while you are at soccer and leave your oldest daughter to baby sit?


----------



## italianjob

Tobyboy said:


> Just something I picked up from reading on sites such as TAM for years and by my own experience. When it comes to workplace affairs, Mondays are significant after being deprived of that "cheating high" all weekend!!!


Well, if they do take the car on monday there is a high chance they are not going to lunch. Here in Italy a lot of restaurants are closed on mondays...


----------



## G.J.

While she's out tonight have a look through computer history and also FB and 
see when you sign her out if another account comes up when you click in the box to sign in

Have you recovered the deleted FB files yet I asked about a few days ago ?
I posted how to do this


----------



## Yeswecan

Let Franseco investigate some more with the help of his friends.


----------



## Q tip

---- Consider anonymous email, phone call from pay phone or letter in box for OMW saying her husband having at least one affair possibly, the way he is with women at work. Close and personal Lunches alone with women. Enough detail that anyone at her office could have sent.

Pressure on OM will be big. And your confront to your wife saying you got anonymous tip and confirmed with your own eyes twice you saw yourself. Double power to wake them up. 

Too hot for OM career. Expose to his boss too...? Exposure plan in order.

Expose to: OMW, her family, OM family, your family and your W family and friends. Cheaters hate the light of truth. Shine it brightly on them. 

When the time comes that is.

Cheaters are liars. Words, excuses... are to be ignored. Actions only are to be observed. She may admit, only a trickle, or deny all. OM too. Given a chance they will coordinate their lies. Be careful. Play Chess not checkers.

Depending on what you discover, she may be sorry she got caught but not truly remorseful. Watch the difference. Words ... Cheap to a cheater. 

I still hope it's not too late and can be fixed.

Very strong thngs you can do.
Get an STD sex disease test
DNA the kids.

This is for powerful impact, not that they are not yours.


----------



## altawa

I think it has gone physical already. I think him showing up the other day (when she turned white as a sheet) spooked her, then when it happened again, it caused her to put the brakes on things temporarily until she knows the coast is clear again. Once she is comfortable, it will start up again. That is why she didnt pull away when the hand holding and cheek touching was going on, but nothing else seemed to happen. Those are easy enough to explain (theoretically), but anything more isn't.


----------



## Chaparral

altawa said:


> I think it has gone physical already. I think him showing up the other day (when she turned white as a sheet) spooked her, then when it happened again, it caused her to put the brakes on things temporarily until she knows the coast is clear again. Once she is comfortable, it will start up again. That is why she didnt pull away when the hand holding and cheek touching was going on, but nothing else seemed to happen. Those are easy enough to explain (theoretically), but anything more isn't.


I don't think it has gone sexual yet because sex at home has not declined. That is very, very rare here. Also, she hasn't started any fake arguements to justify her actions. It may be leading there and she's playing with fire. I don't think she knows the investigator dude is playing her.

If she were in a sexual affair, I think they would not be stupid enough to keep going to lunch out in the open.

I hope this is right and she freaks out when she finds out her marriage and family is hanging by a thread.


----------



## Q tip

While at home during non work time. Has she gone to regular shopping like food, but be gone for longer than necessary for shopping...? Any unusual behaviors, private with phone, mail, FB...


----------



## tom67

Chaparral said:


> I don't think it has gone sexual yet because sex at home has not declined. That is very, very rare here. Also, she hasn't started any fake arguements to justify her actions. It may be leading there and she's playing with fire. I don't think she knows the investigator dude is playing her.
> 
> If she were in a sexual affair, I think they would not be stupid enough to keep going to lunch out in the open.
> 
> I hope this is right and she freaks out when she finds out her marriage and family is hanging by a thread.


Chap I hope so too I am in the camp of sooner rather than another week.
Italian have you pm'd him are you close to him?
Just asking bro.


----------



## italianjob

tom67 said:


> Chap I hope so too I am in the camp of sooner rather than another week.
> Italian have you pm'd him are you close to him?
> Just asking bro.


Hi, Tom
No, I didn't pm him but he can contact me if he feels he needs to.
What do you mean about being close? I don't know him in the "real world" if that's what you mean. 
I sometimes tried to clarify some of the things he wrote because his english is good but a bit rustier than mine, and being Italian myself I can see what he was trying to say and maybe didn't translate clearly.


----------



## Francesco

Fist of all I would like to say that I am very grateful for all the advise giving to me.
When i inscribed here i never thought that there would be so much interest and caring.
I decided to write my story here while i was navigating on internet trying to find answers, and also decided because my wife does not speak English, so if it ever happens that she finds this site she cant get much out of it..... besides the fact that she never controls me. I write from my work on a lap top which i never bring home.

So thank you all for the support, i think that i'm getting addicted to all of you 

Yesterday when i got home I got the call from my wife, she was a bit sad. Turns out that my BIL needed her over cause he was having problems with my MIL and had a hard time dealing with her. He didn't want to say it on the phone to not upset her. My MIL has a beginning of Alzheimer and also of dementia (she is 82). My FIL had a stroke last year (he is 90 years old) and is in bed since then.
That news caught me off guard, so we ended up talking about how to handle the situation. Then i told her that me and D15 where having pizza night for dinner, and she thought is was a great idea. 
So after that me and D15 went out and had a blast! Like i said, we have a great relationship and she confides me every thing. Then on our way back home, out of the blue, she asked me if i was willing to tell her what was wrong with me! Guess i need to work harder on hiding my emotions.... i told her that i was a bit stressed out from work and the earlier bad news got me a bit sad... don't know if that convinced her.
Around midnight we got back home and went to bed, i called my wife while i was laying in bed and we chit chated a bit... said that the situation was better and they were all in bed. She had our S7 laying next to her sleeping. 
Today we will all meet up and i will personally see how things are.

I doubt that i will be able to update before Monday, so in the meantime i just hope to pass a calm weekend and concentrate on us and nothing more.


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> While at home during non work time. Has she gone to regular shopping like food, but be gone for longer than necessary for shopping...? Any unusual behaviors, private with phone, mail, FB...


Yes. But never late, During the week afternoons 2 days are out for taking the kids to the pool, 1 or 2 for shopping. she is always home before i arrive.... dinner on the table always.


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> ---- Consider anonymous email, phone call from pay phone or letter in box for OMW saying her husband having at least one affair possibly, the way he is with women at work. Close and personal Lunches alone with women. Enough detail that anyone at her office could have sent.
> 
> Pressure on OM will be big. And your confront to your wife saying you got anonymous tip and confirmed with your own eyes twice you saw yourself. Double power to wake them up.
> 
> Too hot for OM career. Expose to his boss too...? Exposure plan in order.
> 
> Expose to: OMW, her family, OM family, your family and your W family and friends. Cheaters hate the light of truth. Shine it brightly on them.
> 
> When the time comes that is.
> 
> Cheaters are liars. Words, excuses... are to be ignored. Actions only are to be observed. She may admit, only a trickle, or deny all. OM too. Given a chance they will coordinate their lies. Be careful. Play Chess not checkers.
> 
> Depending on what you discover, she may be sorry she got caught but not truly remorseful. Watch the difference. Words ... Cheap to a cheater.
> 
> I still hope it's not too late and can be fixed.
> 
> Very strong thngs you can do.
> Get an STD sex disease test
> DNA the kids.
> 
> This is for powerful impact, not that they are not yours.


Next week i am going to do my regular annual blood test, i guess that adding std test wont harm at all.
As for a take of action my friend and i have already got a plan. We need to meet up next week to refine it. 
I just need to take an afternoon off and stay with my wife all day.... but without the kids.


----------



## Francesco

To clarify what my action of plan will be.... any correction will be will excepted. 

My friend thought to go at OMW and pretend he was me. In the meanwhile i would be with my wife. He would tell the OMW that has proofs of a inappropriate behavior with my wife and before taking action she should know about it.
At that point all we need to do is wait.... OM will probably call my wife while i am with her. From there on we will see what happens.... we will take it from there.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Francesco said:


> To clarify what my action of plan will be.... any correction will be will excepted.
> 
> My friend thought to go at OMW and pretend he was me. In the meanwhile i would be with my wife. He would tell the OMW that has proofs of a inappropriate behavior with my wife and before taking action she should know about it.
> At that point all we need to do is wait.... OM will probably call my wife while i am with her. From there on we will see what happens.... we will take it from there.


IMO is a good plan, it may work.

Take a look at your wifes mobil to see strange calls, to OM, from yesterday when she arrioved to your BIL house.

If she has an emotional conexion with this guy she probably called him looking for him to confort her about her mom.

As she will be emotional afected, next monday will be a hard day, if they havent been sexual this could be the day as she will be vulnerable OM would make move... Keep calling her to check on her and keep an eye on the luch time.

Good luck


----------



## italianjob

Not a bad plan, but I must say I liked Suspecting's fake email idea better, because it left to the supposed cheaters the burden to unmask themselves with their behavior. In this plan case, instead, you out them to other people with accusations you haven't really verified yet.

Bringing the OMW in at this point has a good side and a bad side to it. The good side is that somebody will be watching the OM's action so the space for continuing the inappropriate behavior will be very thin. The bad side is that this is an element you have no control on. She might just watch him in "stealth mode" or she might storm into their office and cause a big scene.

It's quite clear that your wife has been behaving in inappropriate ways, but the extent of her bad behavior has not been verified yet. Are you sure you want her to face a possible big public humiliation before you really know if she deserves it?


----------



## G.J.

Francesco said:


> To clarify what my action of plan will be.... any correction will be will excepted.
> 
> My friend thought to go at OMW and pretend he was me. In the meanwhile i would be with my wife. He would tell the OMW that has proofs of a inappropriate behavior with my wife and before taking action she should know about it.
> At that point all we need to do is wait.... OM will probably call my wife while i am with her. From there on we will see what happens.... we will take it from there.


So if I understand your plan

Your friend will tell OMW (being you0

He knows about affair and has inappropriate proof and shows her photos as she will ask what proof

So OMW she tells husband 

He calls your wife (hopefully) and say's to your wife
"They only have a couple of photos of us sitting together and nothing else other than when Franco saw us coming back in car"

You ask wife and she sticks to story of just lunch break and what do photos show
Me having lunch"


Don't think it will swing

No where near enough pressure on her
as your wife at that point *knows everything before you confront*


----------



## G.J.

wends as confrontation

use the email ploy

Be brutal saying I know what you have been doing you sl#t etc
Tell your husband everything as* I will be phoning him at xx o clock *to make sure you have been honest

*send email with photos* and what ever evidence he has gathered to that point

She must have only about 30/60 minutes and make sure her mobile is gone 

Then wait and 15 minutes before the time stated get friend to phone to add even more pressure

if she doesn't crack then go in with The way I handled it with my wife getting information ...which was less than you
in confrontation she will not know what you know !!


----------



## Chaparral

I think the anonnymous email to her and maybe both of them, telling them if they don't tell their spouses about their affair, the emailer will tell their spouses and send them pictures to prove it.

I think they should be followed Monday first though and be able to follow a car. I think they need to see where they go in the car.

I so want to believe this marriage is ok. 

The problem with your friend talking to his wife is all the trouble this will cause if nothing but lunches is going on. If someone told me my wife was cheating and had proof and it turned out not to be true, there would be holy hell to pay.

Even sending emails could turn bad. I have to admit though, not telling you about the om and saying they had to go to lunch together for work is lying in my opinion. And it looks like now they go every day.

I would follow Monday, if they only go to lunch I would confront them both and tell her you know their having lunch dates every day, tel him you know what he's up to and ask her if she wants you to help her pack her bags. The reaction is what you want to see. It has to be obvious if she ever goes out with him again you will divorce her. How she reacts tells you what you have to do.


----------



## italianjob

If Email is played well and Francesco can be a "good actor" they may never guess who sent it. They may suspect one of the two BS or maybe a coworker, but they would never know for sure.

It would be just giving them rope. If they do hang themselves with it, it will be completely their responsibility.

I know some think confrontation should be rushed, but, IMO, what really will give away the truth about what is happening is knowing exactly where do they go when they take the car. I would wait to confront until that is done at least once.


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> Not a bad plan, but I must say I liked Suspecting's fake email idea better, because it left to the supposed cheaters the burden to unmask themselves with their behavior. In this plan case, instead, you out them to other people with accusations you haven't really verified yet.
> 
> Bringing the OMW in at this point has a good side and a bad side to it. The good side is that somebody will be watching the OM's action so the space for continuing the inappropriate behavior will be very thin. The bad side is that this is an element you have no control on. She might just watch him in "stealth mode" or she might storm into their office and cause a big scene.
> 
> It's quite clear that your wife has been behaving in inappropriate ways, but the extent of her bad behavior has not been verified yet. Are you sure you want her to face a possible big public humiliation before you really know if she deserves it?


this plan will be put in action around Wednesday, always if monday and tuesday give other proofs. It will happen when i know its time to confront


----------



## Francesco

G.J. said:


> So if I understand your plan
> 
> Your friend will tell OMW (being you0
> 
> He knows about affair and has inappropriate proof and shows her photos as she will ask what proof
> 
> So OMW she tells husband
> 
> He calls your wife (hopefully) and say's to your wife
> "They only have a couple of photos of us sitting together and nothing else other than when Franco saw us coming back in car"
> 
> You ask wife and she sticks to story of just lunch break and what do photos show
> Me having lunch"
> 
> 
> Don't think it will swing
> 
> No where near enough pressure on her
> as your wife at that point *knows everything before you confront*


the black part i underlined is correct. but he will add much more then pictures on a bench.
The plan is he calls while she is with me AND THEN take from there...


----------



## Francesco

need to go now... heading out to town. update on monday.


----------



## G.J.

Do not give them time to phone each other when email sent

They will deflect it so easy on its own

And no upper hand when confronting

Interrogation is done effectively by the person NOT KNOWING WHAT THE OTHER KNOWS


----------



## G.J.

Francesco said:


> the black part i underlined is correct. but he will add much more then pictures on a bench.
> The plan is he calls while she is with me AND THEN take from there...


Much more?

holding hand briefly and touching of cheek ?

little confused on your full plan now?


----------



## Suspecting2014

G.J. said:


> So if I understand your plan
> 
> Your friend will tell OMW (being you0
> 
> He knows about affair and has inappropriate proof and shows her photos as she will ask what proof
> 
> So OMW she tells husband
> 
> He calls your wife (hopefully) and say's to your wife
> *"They only have a couple of photos of us sitting together and nothing else other than when Franco saw us coming back in car"*
> 
> You ask wife and she sticks to story of just lunch break and what do photos show
> Me having lunch"
> 
> 
> Don't think it will swing
> 
> No where near enough pressure on her
> as your wife at that point *knows everything before you confront*


It is a good point, your friend can't tell OMW the evidence, lack of it, your have.

Maybe tell her that it is an office rumor (as someone pointed out, their work colleagues left them alone to have lunch). The problem is that without evidence the OMW wouldn't believe your friend.

Even if OMW believe your friend, when she confront her husband he will deny everything and next day at work they can make up a plan and then you will never know what has happened.

Maybe next monday you can get some solid evidence.


----------



## Q tip

Issue is, if nothing's happened yet, they will fight and deny. Innocent lunches. It could drive them underground or they will stop with nothing more done. 

If something's already happening, they will probably still deny. Still go underground or stop.

Or all the pressure will make them make mistakes and say more than the bluff of your information. 

You should consider this could hurt your marriage if she's innocent. Do you have enough evidence to confront. I know emotions are high. Do you have enough facts. 

The friend could talk to OMW say he is a work colleague and not pretend to be H. 

I want to cast some doubt to make sure you've got all the information and you're satisfied at this point.


----------



## Chaparral

Q tip said:


> Issue is, if nothing's happened yet, they will fight and deny. Innocent lunches. It could drive them underground or they will stop with nothing more done.
> 
> If something's already happening, they will probably still deny. Still go underground or stop.
> 
> Or all the pressure will make them make mistakes and say more than the bluff of your information.
> 
> You should consider this could hurt your marriage if she's innocent. Do you have enough evidence to confront. I know emotions are high. Do you have enough facts.
> 
> The friend could talk to OMW say he is a work colleague and not pretend to be H.
> 
> I want to cast some doubt to make sure you've got all the information and you're satisfied at this point.


It is true this could hurt the marriage. In my opinion though, she has already hurt the marriage and more importantly deceived and lied to her husband even if its only about meeting him for lunch every day.

Is the deception and lying agreed on by most of us here?


----------



## Chaparral

Francesco, did you check out this link?
Nokia Lumia 635 - Find your lost phone - User Guide - Microsoft - USA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhSMCF_nlSY&app=desktop


----------



## Tobyboy

Francesco said:


> Fist of all I would like to say that I am very grateful for all the advise giving to me.
> When i inscribed here i never thought that there would be so much interest and caring.
> I decided to write my story here while i was navigating on internet trying to find answers, and also decided because my wife does not speak English, so if it ever happens that she finds this site she cant get much out of it..... besides the fact that she never controls me. I write from my work on a lap top which i never bring home.
> 
> So thank you all for the support, i think that i'm getting addicted to all of you
> 
> Yesterday when i got home I got the call from my wife, she was a bit sad. Turns out that my BIL needed her over cause he was having problems with my MIL and had a hard time dealing with her. He didn't want to say it on the phone to not upset her. My MIL has a beginning of Alzheimer and also of dementia (she is 82). My FIL had a stroke last year (he is 90 years old) and is in bed since then.
> That news caught me off guard, so we ended up talking about how to handle the situation. Then i told her that me and D15 where having pizza night for dinner, and she thought is was a great idea.
> So after that me and D15 went out and had a blast! Like i said, we have a great relationship and she confides me every thing. Then on our way back home, out of the blue, she asked me if i was willing to tell her what was wrong with me! Guess i need to work harder on hiding my emotions.... i told her that i was a bit stressed out from work and the earlier bad news got me a bit sad... don't know if that convinced her.
> Around midnight we got back home and went to bed, i called my wife while i was laying in bed and we chit chated a bit... said that the situation was better and they were all in bed. She had our S7 laying next to her sleeping.
> Today we will all meet up and i will personally see how things are.
> 
> I doubt that i will be able to update before Monday, so in the meantime i just hope to pass a calm weekend and concentrate on us and nothing more.


I think your plan to confront on Wednesday is premature. You have no proof of either an EA or PA. All you have is proof of two coworkers going to lunch together and one touching the other in the face and briefly holding her hand. This can easily be explained as one friend consoling another after she told him about her ailing parents. And this is the excuse you will hear!!!!
My advise, continue to monitor her during her lunch break until you have undeniable proof of infidelity. But, realised that the longer it continues, the harder it will be for your Wife to resist the OM if she hasn't crossed that line yet! 
Ask yourself this. Do you want to prevent an affair from happening or do you want proof that an affair is taking place already?


----------



## Tasorundo

His daughter asked what was wrong, not his wife.


----------



## Tobyboy

Tasorundo said:


> His daughter asked what was wrong, not his wife.


Thanks. Misread the post by OP and have edited my reply.


----------



## Q tip

It could be premature if nothing else has happened. But good if something else might happen but not yet. 

She allowed him to touch and hold her hand. She should have backed away and defended her boundaries. Does not matter what the discussion was about. And the discussion MUST have boundaries too.

Still they seem to always have lunch. Opposit sex friends are not good. Bad Guys seem to always push for more and more...

And W has not mentioned him at all to her H.

She will learn a lesson regardless. Especially if he says he got contacted anonymously as did OMW.


----------



## Dogbert

Francesco and friend get another woman to pose as the OMW. This woman then calls Francesco's wife. Tells his wife that her husband, OM, has an STD. Then listen to her reaction.


----------



## Graywolf2

Tobyboy said:


> I think your plan to confront on Wednesday is premature. You have no proof of either an EA or PA. All you have is proof of two coworkers going to lunch together and one touching the other in the face and briefly holding her hand. This can easily be explained as one friend consoling another after she told him about her ailing parents. And this is the excuse you will hear!!!!
> 
> My advise, continue to monitor her during her lunch break until you have undeniable proof of infidelity. But, realised that the longer it continues, the harder it will be for your Wife to resist the OM if she hasn't crossed that line yet!
> Ask yourself this. Do you want to prevent an affair from happening or do you want proof that an affair is taking place already?


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


Your wife will only admit what you can prove and nothing more. Then she will make up the best excuse she can think of.



Francesco said:


> I actually told her the other night why she be having lunch with always the same person and not with others, and she just laughed at that saying that she knew that i was going to ask...
> 
> What she said was that *they are working on some papers that need to be done very soon*, so thats why they have lunch together.


Every time you have checked on her for 3 weeks she is with the same man. Have they have been working on those same papers for 3 weeks? If you confront her she will say that they did such a good job together on those papers that the boss gave them more. See how it works? 

If you confront now the most you will get is: “Yes I did become overly fond of him and it was inappropriate. I will stop.” Maybe that's all you want.

I think both your wife and the OM are in marriages they never want to leave. If that’s the case another married person is the best person to have an affair with. 

Plus I bet they don’t communicate except through work. They are willing to risk their happy marriage since there is little chance of ever getting caught. It was a one in a million shot when you caught them together they were shocked out of minds.

The point is that if you confront now you will never know if it was a PA or just an EA, but that may be the best for your marriage. Put them on notice now and you may prevent it or put a stop to it but you will never know.

If you want to know one way or the other have a friend put a GPS on the OM’s car and follow them Monday. They also make VAR pens you could put in her purse.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Francesco, 

As some one posted to use a woman to call your wife, this could be the way to do it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKdNyfgRzWY


----------



## Q tip

When confronting, her reaction and body language will tell much much more. If it is truly innocent she will be concerned. If guilty of something her reaction will likely be defensive in nature. Completely out of her normal behavior dealing with problems.

That will tell a lot. Don't be emotional, be mature. Observe much more than you ever have. The guilty will have tells. Innocent folks don't.

And there will be a flurry of phone calls or communication between guilty parties. Watch her time alone and phone calls! emails, FB.

Also you can demand all accounts, passwords, device access, everything. Be fair, she has total access to yours too. That is how it should be.

I think this OM is working her. I'd see if he has a reputation. 

Verify everything.


----------



## happyman64

Francesco

Enjoy the weekend.

Because next week will be very trying for you and your family.

HM


----------



## Decorum

Francesco,
Remember if needed, to turn the situation around on her. "So its ok if I have an intimate (non sexual) female friend that I go out with, touch her face, hold her hand and keep you in the dark on the relationship, its depth and frequency." "One of the things that I wanted to see when we spoke about this was if you would, deny, protect, and minimize your emotional relationship with him, I am disappointed." "You have two men in your life and I feel betrayed."

Let her see the hurt in your eyes, you have to speak her language.


She may say it was "nothing", "so you risked your marriage and family for a relationship that means nothing to you, and I should feel good about that?"

Just want to give you some things to think about going into this.

I wish you well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Q tip

Dogbert said:


> Francesco and friend get another woman to pose as the OMW. This woman then calls Francesco's wife. Tells his wife that her husband, OM, has an STD. Then listen to her reaction.


Then have her ask if she gave the STD to OM.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Q tip said:


> Dogbert said:
> 
> 
> 
> Francesco and friend get another woman to pose as the OMW. This woman then calls Francesco's wife. Tells his wife that her husband, OM, has an STD. Then listen to her reaction.
> 
> 
> 
> Then have her ask if she gave the STD to OM.
Click to expand...

Or inform her that OM already gave her a nasty STD (something with no cure like hepes or AIDS) as he (OM) has many GF and Francescos wife is just one of many. That she, the fake wife ( FW), is just trying to be a moral person informing Francescos wife to test her self and her husband ( Francesco).That she (FW) is filing D and moving on.

Then just wait....


----------



## Dogbert

Suspecting2014 said:


> Or inform her that OM already gave her a nasty STD (something with no cure like hepes or AIDS) as he (OM) has many GF and Francescos wife is just one of many. That she, the fake wife ( FW), is just trying to be a moral person informing Francescos wife to test her self and her husband ( Francesco).That she (FW) is filing D and moving on.
> 
> Then just wait....


The FW could angrily tell F's wife that she's going to tell F about the affair so he go get himself tested for STD. If F's wife is cheating there will be many OMG in Italian coming out of her mouth. If F's wife is faithful she will deny that she is having an affair and even get angry and call FW a crazy b!tch before hanging up on her.

Cheaters scramble like chickens with their heads cut off when they get ambushed. It can be a ROTFLMAO sight under certain circumstances.


----------



## Francesco

Hello Tammers and good new week!

Thank you all for the responses, read them all.
Had a very interesting weekend... When i arrived got a great hug from D7 and wife.
Saturday afternoon and evening went down ok, my MIL seemed to feel better (medicines calmed her down) and a little of stress went away.
Had a talk with my BIL that told me he was sorry for asking to switch week (so without me asking he confirmed that is was him), but for a moment he was thinking to take MIL in a clinic and needed my wife to watch over FIL. Fortunately it all calmed down and things got better. So in the end all went well on that side.
Saturday night after the kids where in bed, me and wife layed down on our bed, cuddled and made love. She initiated .
After a while we where cuddling, i couldn't not ask a question, it was hard not to. So i asked if she is happy with our marriage, and if there would be something that she could change what it would be.. She hugged me tighter and smiled, answers that it couldn't be better! Now here is where she caught me off guard... she also said "i just wish that YOU will always be there for me like now!" Why wouldn't i? cause at 40 i'm starting to have health problems to early. WHAT? 
Now, just to add something, a little over a year ago she found out that she became celeriac, it's nothing big, but it kind of created a little of confusion in our family in the beginning. So now its no big deal. Then she had other small issues but again no big deals. Anyway i told her how much she meant to me and nothing in the world will ever change that... and then to just make a joke to laugh said "of course my only issue would be if you cheated" "Never crossed my mind" was the answer.
After a bit we fell asleep.
Sunday was a rainy day, so we stayed home till it was time to head back home. The day ended without any new situations.

So now while i am at work i'm wondering what will happen when my friends coworker will call.... 
With my friend we decided just to keep the surveillance and only put our plan in action when i decide to confront... if i confront. This cumming week will be clearer i hope.


----------



## italianjob

I think you need to see what happens this week. If the two of them are seen again in not completely appropriate behavior, I still think you need to confront her about respecting boundaries, anyway. Even if there's nothing serious going on, if left alone this situation can lead to unpleasant things IMO.


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> I think you need to see what happens this week. If the two of them are seen again in not completely appropriate behavior, I still think you need to confront her about respecting boundaries, anyway. Even if there's nothing serious going on, if left alone this situation can lead to unpleasant things IMO.


yes i agree, but the plan+confrontation will happen on the same day, and only if something new come out of this strange situation


----------



## italianjob

Francesco said:


> yes i agree, but the plan+confrontation will happen on the same day, and only if something new come out of this strange situation


I would keep up surveillance at least until they take his car. You need to see this at least once to know what happens when they do.


----------



## G.J.

italianjob said:


> I would keep up surveillance at least until they take his car. You need to see this at least once to know what happens when they do.


Just don't lose that car if there's only one following and be prepared to intervene


----------



## Chaparral

Back to the first time you saw her get out of the car with him, how did you react at that time. She turned white and acted guilty. Did you act like everything was ok? Could she have gotten the impression you had no problem with going to lunch with him everyday?

In my view, she knows you would not like it. by going to lunch with him everyday she has been checked on she is deceiving you and lying by omission. She is also lying about why she goes with him. From all indications she is not talking about work. I hope your friend gets better pictures but nothing serious is going on.

She needs shook up very badly. I doubt she has any idea what the other man is up to.


----------



## syhoybenden

Can you track her phone's location or perhaps slip a GPS locator in her purse in the event that your chaotic traffic situation makes tailing the car problematic?


----------



## Chaparral

syhoybenden said:


> Can you track her phone's location or perhaps slip a GPS locator in her purse in the event that your chaotic traffic situation makes tailing the car problematic?


From what I read her phone can be used a s a gps locator.

I think they are 6 hours ahead of us in the eastern time zone. It after 2 in the afternoon there. So this lunch episode is already over..........I hope.


----------



## tom67

Chaparral said:


> From what I read her phone can be used a s a gps locator.
> 
> I think they are 6 hours ahead of us in the eastern time zone. It after 2 in the afternoon there. So this lunch episode is already over..........I hope.


I hope this doesn't escalate.


----------



## Chaparral

It's three or four hours past lunch there, doesn't look good.


----------



## tom67

Chaparral said:


> It's three or four hours past lunch there, doesn't look good.


Sigh
4:21 pm his time right now.


----------



## Yeswecan

Francesco said:


> Now here is where she caught me off guard... she also said "i just wish that YOU will always be there for me like now!" Why wouldn't i? cause at 40 i'm starting to have health problems to early. WHAT?
> Now, just to add something, a little over a year ago she found out that she became celeriac, it's nothing big, but it kind of created a little of confusion in our family in the beginning. So now its no big deal.


And this my friend is where you take the reigns. Yes, it might appear as no big deal to you however it looks to be a big deal to her. It should be treated as such. At that very moment should have been the biggest heart to heart chat you would ever be privileged. Of course you will be there through it all. Supporting her no matter what health issue she might be going through. You look her straight in the eyes and assure her you will be there!


----------



## Francesco

Chaparral said:


> Back to the first time you saw her get out of the car with him, how did you react at that time. She turned white and acted guilty. Did you act like everything was ok? Could she have gotten the impression you had no problem with going to lunch with him everyday?
> 
> In my view, she knows you would not like it. by going to lunch with him everyday she has been checked on she is deceiving you and lying by omission. She is also lying about why she goes with him. From all indications she is not talking about work. I hope your friend gets better pictures but nothing serious is going on.
> 
> She needs shook up very badly. I doubt she has any idea what the other man is up to.



my reaction was like WTF, hers was oh shxxxt!
I tried not to show it.
She for sure knows that being alone with any OM not in a public place would get to me.


----------



## Francesco

Nothing new today. I was told that she came out with only 1 female coworker, and stayed the whole time in her company. While the friends coworker was watching he was talking with me on cell in direct time.

I just think that i'm getting old and paranoid....


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> my reaction was like WTF, hers was oh shxxxt!
> I tried not to show it.
> She for sure knows that being alone with any OM not in a public place would get to me.


Not telling you about private lunches with opposite sex man repeatedly is a concern. This needs to stop permanently. Her friends at work see this too. No one can not notice. Even you noticed.

They don't need to meet every day. Maybe he's out on biz. Maybe his wife is beating the crap out of him because of a call from another husband. 

But this must stop. Not more contact. Her behavior of secrecy and not sharing this is a problem. Another problem is - is this all. Don't be relieved he's not there today. Too early to relax.


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> Nothing new today. I was told that she came out with only 1 female coworker, and stayed the whole time in her company. While the friends coworker was watching he was talking with me on cell in direct time.
> 
> I just think that i'm getting old and paranoid....


Stay vigilant. Don't be swayed by your feeling of relief because of a missed lunch. They probably don't meet every day. 

It may still be nothing. But secrecy is dangerous too.


----------



## drifting on

Francesco said:


> Nothing new today. I was told that she came out with only 1 female coworker, and stayed the whole time in her company. While the friends coworker was watching he was talking with me on cell in direct time.
> 
> I just think that i'm getting old and paranoid....


Francesco

My WW had an affair with a co-worker and lunches were when they hooked up. I can't say for certain how far this has gone but him touching her face and holding her hand with no intent from your wife to pull away scares me. My WW and her OM couldn't meet every day either but they met two to three times a week. Each time you arrived or your friend watched they met up but this one time. Keep up the surveillance and I hope it hasn't gone very far. Don't give up yet and leave no doubts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tobyboy

Francesco said:


> Nothing new today. I was told that she came out with only 1 female coworker, and stayed the whole time in her company. While the friends coworker was watching he was talking with me on cell in direct time.
> 
> I just think that i'm getting old and paranoid....


Was the OM at work today? Did the friend see the OMs car at work? 
You mentioned last week in a post that after one of her lunch break, the OM kissed her cheek and left and your wife went inside. Does the OM have set hours for lunch breaks or does he come and go as he pleases?

And no your NOT paranoid!!!


----------



## Francesco

Tobyboy said:


> Was the OM at work today? Did the friend see the OMs car at work?
> You mentioned last week in a post that after one of her lunch break, the OM kissed her cheek and left and your wife went inside. Does the OM have set hours for lunch breaks or does he come and go as he pleases?
> 
> And no your NOT paranoid!!!



I thought that they had the same lunch hours, but what my friend told me is that since OM is an inspector he doesn't have normal breaks.... especially when on work missions. Maybe today he had one of those missions...


----------



## GusPolinski

Francesco said:


> This cumming week will be clearer i hope.


I realize that this was likely nothing more than a typo. But still... I HAVE to do this...










Sorry. No choice.


----------



## tom67

GusPolinski said:


> I realize that this was likely nothing more than a typo. But still... I HAVE to do this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry. No choice.


:rofl::rofl:
Anyway Francesco give it a few more days hoping for the best.


----------



## Tobyboy

Francesco said:


> Nothing new today. I was told that she came out with only 1 female coworker, and stayed the whole time in her company. While the friends coworker was watching he was talking with me on cell in direct time.
> 
> I just think that i'm getting old and paranoid....





Francesco said:


> I thought that they had the same lunch hours, but what my friend told me is that since OM is an inspector he doesn't have normal breaks.... especially when on work missions. Maybe today he had one of those missions...


Could be. But was the OMs car there? This is very important!!!


----------



## Chaparral

She's regularly going to lunch with a man that is very affectionate with her. Her friends manage to leave them alone together.

You are not paranoid. How would your wife react if you were doing the same including caressing another womans cheek etc.?


----------



## Q tip

Tobyboy said:


> Could be. But was the OMs car there? This is very important!!!


Very true. Is his home office there or different place. Is he supposed to drop of paperwork and leave or does he sit there too.

I wonder - do you have any friends there through your wife? Do you socialize with them after work with her? Are there group parties you attend together there? 

You could watch how people are around her when you're around. That is also a tell. If they suspect something, you'll see it in their body language too. Would OM attend these get togethers. Is he a part of that office team or another office.


----------



## Yeswecan

Francesco said:


> Nothing new today. I was told that she came out with only 1 female coworker, and stayed the whole time in her company. While the friends coworker was watching he was talking with me on cell in direct time.
> 
> I just think that i'm getting old and paranoid....



Besides today's non-event, what of your W statement that, "I just wish that YOU will always be there for me like now!" 

Francesco...this was you one best opportunity to see exactly where/what your W is thinking. Why did not pursue this further and look to brush it off? She could have been a open book at this point.

Depending on your answer...I would approach your W again and let her know her statement concerns you. You would like to clear up any would be situation with a solid answer from you and exactly how you feel about your W. How you will be there for anything trivial to major. Why would she think you are going somewhere in the future?


----------



## italianjob

Francesco,
The week end with her was nice and that's a good sign, but you shouldn't jump the gun because of one missed lunch. May I remind you that last Friday your friend didn't call but came to tell you in person because it looked bad?
The OM could have a day off or maybe even the Whole week off, as far as you know, or he could have been on a work mission. You could ask your friend to tell you not only what your wife does, but also if the OM isn't seen at all or goes to lunch with another Group.

What is happening here is not necessarily the worse, but, by what you know, the best case scenario is that a guy is trying his best to get into your wife's panties and she, for whatever reason (maybe she's just naive about his real intentions), is letting him get too close for comfort.

This may be not very bad, but surely is not good, don't fool yourself into thinking you're paranoid.


----------



## Chaparral

What is celeriac?


----------



## italianjob

Chaparral said:


> What is celeriac?


I think he meant the celiac (or coeliac) disease, an intestine problem caused by a reaction to gliadin (gluten protein).


----------



## Yeswecan

italianjob said:


> Francesco,
> 
> What is happening here is not necessarily the worse, but, by what you know, the best case scenario is that a guy is trying his best to get into your wife's panties and she, for whatever reason (maybe she's just naive about his real intentions), is letting him get too close for comfort.
> 
> This may be not very bad, but surely is not good, don't fool yourself into thinking you're paranoid.


I agree here. I too believe OM is working it. Your W's current situation with elderly sick parents, kids, job, etc....this might be some odd ball escape and or OM is making it appear that way. Plus, the odd statement of you being there. I really think you need to revisit that statement of your W.


----------



## Yeswecan

italianjob said:


> I think he meant the celiac (or coeliac) disease, an intestine problem caused by a reaction to gliadin (gluten protein).



Then she needs to eat gluten free. Maybe some prescribed medication. Francesco should not make light of it if it concerns his W. It appears it does but I'm unclear because of her statement about being there and Francesco referring to this problem. Is that what she meant?


----------



## italianjob

Yeswecan said:


> Then she needs to eat gluten free. Maybe some prescribed medication. Francesco should not make light of it if it concerns his W. It appears it does but I'm unclear because of her statement about being there and Francesco referring to this problem. Is that what she meant?


It's not a very big problem, actually, a lot of people have that problem here in Italy, but it's often something it takes awhile to diagnose if it appears at a later age, like in Francesco's wife case. Those health problems coupled with turning 40 might have put her in that state of mind.


----------



## Yeswecan

italianjob said:


> It's not a very big problem, actually, a lot of people have that problem here in Italy, but it's often something it takes awhile to diagnose if it appears at a later age, like in Francesco's wife case. Those health problems coupled with turning 40 might have put her in that state of mind.


Yes, exactly. What then is her state of mind? I think Francesco could have been enlightened the night she said she wished he would always be there like he was that night. What did she mean with this statement?


----------



## italianjob

Yeswecan said:


> Yes, exactly. What then is her state of mind? I think Francesco could have been enlightened the night she said she wished he would always be there like he was that night. What did she mean with this statement?


Yeah, I agree, he should have investigated it further.
The OM might have been using this moment of weakness and her feelings of inadequacy to break through as a friend and now he's trying to move it to the next level.


----------



## Chaparral

She makes it sound like she isn't sure you will be there for her and you haven't been in her mind. That's a very bad sign. You need to find out why she said that. It may even be something a player would try to convince her of.


----------



## Yeswecan

Chaparral said:


> She makes it sound like she isn't sure you will be there for her and you haven't been in her mind. That's a very bad sign. You need to find out why she said that. It may even be something a player would try to convince her of.


My thoughts exactly. Francesco needs re-examine this comment. She is thinking of the future. Is Francesco in it or not. After all she WISHES he is there like he was that night. OK..bells and whistles in my head. What does she mean exactly?


----------



## Francesco

Tobyboy said:


> Could be. But was the OMs car there? This is very important!!!


he said that he didn't see it.


----------



## Tobyboy

Yeswecan said:


> Yes, exactly. What then is her state of mind? I think Francesco could have been enlightened the night she said she wished he would always be there like he was that night. What did she mean with this statement?


What did she mean? Well....let's see. She spent most of her lunch hours all week unloading all her problems and fears to a man that would listen and not judge her. Someone who could be doing anything else, but instead sacrifices he's time to actually listen to her....and only her! Something that she can't get from her husband cause he's to busy(work, children, ailing parents). This OM is an escape from her real world problems. He is her non-judging support system. But, it's not cheating to her. Sex hasn't happen, so no cheating here. He's just a friend that listens and support me when Francesco can't.

*Of course, she would have never said this that night. But after confronting, her words will sound similar to this!!!!*


----------



## Francesco

Yeswecan said:


> Besides today's non-event, what of your W statement that, "I just wish that YOU will always be there for me like now!"
> 
> Francesco...this was you one best opportunity to see exactly where/what your W is thinking. Why did not pursue this further and look to brush it off? She could have been a open book at this point.
> 
> Depending on your answer...I would approach your W again and let her know her statement concerns you. You would like to clear up any would be situation with a solid answer from you and exactly how you feel about your W. How you will be there for anything trivial to major. Why would she think you are going somewhere in the future?


I did!! i asked her why she thinks that i might not be there in the future, and she joked about her health small problems, and that since up to now i have no problems, that i would find a new woman to replace her. it was all said with a smile and not serious, but anyway it got me thinking.


----------



## Francesco

Yeswecan said:


> Then she needs to eat gluten free. Maybe some prescribed medication. Francesco should not make light of it if it concerns his W. It appears it does but I'm unclear because of her statement about being there and Francesco referring to this problem. Is that what she meant?


Well... since she has this problem with gluten free food, she thinks that it causes privations for the rest of us, also she starts thinking that she's starting to have small health issues that prevent her from doing things together like before.
cant really ex plane it better, but little problems seem get to her.


----------



## ReidWright

Francesco said:


> that i would find a new woman to replace her.


could be classic projection

(she thinks you would replace her quickly if needed, because she's had thoughts of replacing you with a new man)


----------



## Francesco

Yeswecan said:


> Yes, exactly. What then is her state of mind? I think Francesco could have been enlightened the night she said she wished he would always be there like he was that night. What did she mean with this statement?


no, what she ment was that she was fearfull that in the future i would not be there as of now!!


----------



## Q tip

Yeswecan said:


> I agree here. I too believe OM is working it. Your W's current situation with elderly sick parents, kids, job, etc....this might be some odd ball escape and or OM is making it appear that way. Plus, the odd statement of you being there. I really think you need to revisit that statement of your W.


*"i just wish that YOU will always be there for me like now!" *

Just maybe... Maybe maybe maybe..

OM is a Pick Up Artist PUA type of guy.

Here is an example he may be playing her. She unknowing shares her concerns and he is milking her for even more info to present himself as that good guy who cares and showers attention to slowly get his way.

He might be playing the PUA card. Be the shoulder to cry on. Be that totally empathetic guy who can sweep her from those day to day challenges and pains. A real man who cares about her and her emotions - if not but for a few moments. Caress her heart with all sorts of Bull-sh!t. Whatever she complains about, he's there to provide comfort. Eventually his attention to be rewarded with sex.

That may have been her response to you. He's is "BEING THERE" for her.

If this is true. That will be her excuse. He was there for her while you weren't all the time. That's easy. Playing the game for a short hour lunch break while at work. Her emotions are the tell. She just told you to be there for her (like OM is). He's playing her emotions. Pretending in order to get sex.

He seems to be a Piece of Sh!t. Preying on her weakness to get some action and ruin families. 

She's innocent. He is "friending" her. And working on breaking her. Perhaps he is showering tender care and listening for evil reasons. Why else would he. Nothing to do with work. Right? Touching a face has nothing to do with work.and hand holding. She thinks it is a caring act, not a threat. Until it's too late. She's getting emotionally attached to the attention. Then he starts comparing himself to you. (if I was your H, I would ...Blah blah blah lie lie lie). Then gets her to start comparing and complaining about you. It progresses ever so slowly... 

"Your H is so lucky to have you. Why does he not see this. You are so wonderful. I wish I met you years ago..."

Seems to explain her secrecy. He's working his shameful magic. She's innocent. He got past her boundaries. Once this is over, she will need to see what's going on and strengthen herself and her boundaries. He's a pig.

Lunch man will always be there for her. Until he's caught...

All this is just maybe. Her statement to you on the weekend seems to be a tell.


----------



## convert

italianjob said:


> Yeah, I agree, he should have investigated it further.
> The OM might have been using this moment of weakness and her feelings of inadequacy to break through as a friend and now he's trying to move it to the next level.


:iagree:


and I bet OM is telling op's wife his marriage is not good or him and his wife are in an open marriage, standard cheater speak.


----------



## Yeswecan

Francesco said:


> I did!! i asked her why she thinks that i might not be there in the future, and she joked about her health small problems, and that since up to now i have no problems, that i would find a new woman to replace her. it was all said with a smile and not serious, but anyway it got me thinking.


Ok, this concerns her. Let me let you in on something. I'm 49. My W is 42. She just started to have health issue with her woman parts(if you know what I mean). She too said the same with a smile and giggle. However, she was serious. Basically I will go find another woman. COULD NOT BE FURTHEST FROM THE TRUTH! I told her that in no uncertain terms. She had surgery. I was there from start to recuperating for a few weeks after. I told her I'm committed 20 years ago at our wedding. Last I call it was in sickness and in health. Well, here we are. Here I am. No worries. 

No, make your W health concern and relationship with you the top priority. There is a recurring theme...kids first. Yes, to a point. For me, W first. Kids follow. Stable parents that love each other IS taking care of kids first. 

Time for you to stand up and become the rock for you W. The one she will turn to no matter what. That she knows you will be standing there when the smoke clears.


----------



## Yeswecan

Francesco said:


> no, what she ment was that she was fearfull that in the future i would not be there as of now!!


Francesco...you squash this thought of your W's like a damn ****roach! You need to be reassuring with words and more importantly with your actions. 

Oh...start dating her again please. Goes along way.


----------



## Q tip

convert said:


> :iagree:
> 
> 
> and I bet OM is tell op's wife his marriage is not good or him and his wife are in an open marriage, standard cheater speak.


Then later, he tells her had a vasectomy and his wife cheated. That he just got an STD test and he's clean. Opening the door... He is so unhappy in his life, marriage, puppy dies. Whatever lie he thinks she needs to hear...

ETA... Then she gets pregnant...


----------



## convert

Q tip said:


> Then later, he tells her had a vasectomy and his wife cheated. That he just got an STD test and he's clean. Opening the door... He is so unhappy in his life, marriage, puppy dies. Whatever lie he thinks she needs to hear...


yep

:iagree:


----------



## z_man

Francesco said:


> Well... since she has this problem with gluten free food, she thinks that it causes privations for the rest of us, also she starts thinking that she's starting to have small health issues that prevent her from doing things together like before.
> cant really ex plane it better, but little problems seem get to her.



The way I see it, your wife sees her parents in advanced age, with their health issues that require extensive/constant care.

Now she is starting to have some health issues and (over thinking) projects (genetics) what she may be looking at in her future health wise and in need of similar care. 

Because you are her husband, she has to depend on you for her care if she develops health problems that she cannot manage on her own. The questions of "will you be there for me" naturally arise.

Fear of being alone is powerful.

My wife has the same fears as both her parents died at age 60 from various cancers. She looks for comfort/security from me.

How does this play into your wife's interactions/relationship with the Om? I don't really know right now and could only speculate on the possibilities without more information.


----------



## Q tip

Yeswecan said:


> Francesco...you squash this thought of your W's like a damn ****roach! You need to be reassuring with words and more importantly with your actions.
> 
> Oh...start dating her again please. Goes along way.


They had a great dating weekend. Keep,it up. Let her know no one on the planet will ever separate you. Dates are fun too. Take a private weekend somewhere. Just the two of you. Listen to her more than you talk. (Two ears, one mouth....)


----------



## Tobyboy

Francesco said:


> he said that he didn't see it.


Ok. So safe to say he wasn't there. Nothing has change. You had a good weekend. Your wife made a comment that has thrown you for a loop. In one sentence she has you doubting yourself, that your paranoid, old, probably seeing things that aren't there. Mission accomplished!!!! Your wife is smart. She is two steps ahead of you when it comes to your "prodding". She's proven it twice now. With her "I knew you ask me that" and "will you be there like now" comments. 
Let's not forget the facts. 
She was caught getting out of a males car twice!!!
She continues to go out to lunch with the guy. 
The guy has initiated physical contact when alone. 
Your wife and OM are very confident and comfortable with each other when alone together as observed by neutral party. 

You will see for yourself tomorrow and you will know what your dealing with. Be prepared.


----------



## italianjob

Wife's comment could be a lot of things, related or not to what's going on with the OM, but my impression is that it could be revealing of the tactics that OM has been/is using to get to her. I wouldn't be surprised that the car trips at lunch, if "innocent", turn out to be OM taking her to a celiac friendly restaurant...


----------



## convert

question for everyone, If this turns out to be just bad boundaries should the OP still contact OM's wife, maybe in keeping the boundaries in check from both sides???


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> Wife's comment could be a lot of things, related or not to what's going on with the OM, but my impression is that it could be revealing of the tactics that OM has been/is using to get to her. I wouldn't be surprised that the car trips at lunch, if "innocent", turn out to be OM taking her to a celiac friendly restaurant...


this is what i am wishing also


----------



## Nucking Futs

Francesco said:


> Italiano anche te?
> The only other red flag is when at night for less then an hour she posts and checks out facebook.... but i have her contact and she nevers puts post or likes on things that might be alarming. Her phone is never locked, and she leaves it anywhere. Like i said.... if it wasn't for this coworker that gets to my 6th sense i would not be so paranoid.
> *I actually told her the other night why she be having lunch with always the same person and not with others,* and she just laughed at that saying that she knew that i was going to ask...
> What she said was that they are working on some papers that need to be done very soon, so thats why they have lunch together.
> I think i should cool off for a while and wait





Francesco said:


> After a while we where cuddling, i couldn't not ask a question, it was hard not to. So i asked if she is happy with our marriage, and if there would be something that she could change what it would be.. She hugged me tighter and smiled, answers that it couldn't be better! Now here is where she caught me off guard... she also said "i just wish that YOU will always be there for me like now!" Why wouldn't i? cause at 40 i'm starting to have health problems to early. WHAT?
> Now, just to add something, a little over a year ago she found out that she became celeriac, it's nothing big, but it kind of created a little of confusion in our family in the beginning. So now its no big deal. Then she had other small issues but again no big deals. *Anyway i told her how much she meant to me and nothing in the world will ever change that... and then to just make a joke to laugh said "of course my only issue would be if you cheated" "Never crossed my mind" was the answer.*
> After a bit we fell asleep.


The first quote above is from 6 days ago, the second from today. That's twice in one week that OP has brought the possibility of her cheating up. She knows he suspects she's cheating and she knows who he suspects her of cheating with. Can she tie her own shoes? If so, she's smart enough to know that having lunch with the man her husband thinks she's cheating with would probably be a bad idea.

I see two possibilities here. 1, we have another RDMU situation where a soft confront leads to the illicit activity being completely shut down for a period of time, or 2, she doesn't understand the game POSOM is playing, doesn't think she's doing anything wrong yet and doesn't really get that Francesco is suspicious of her. I'm not going to rule out 2, but she can't possibly be dumb enough to not understand that Francesco is suspicious of her.


----------



## Francesco

convert said:


> question for everyone, If this turns out to be just bad boundaries should the OP still contact OM's wife, maybe in keeping the boundaries in check from both sides???



with my friend we agreed to go with our plan only when and if she gets busted red handed.... in the meanwhile i just need to keep my guard up.
I agree with who said that i need to date more and work less...
If she is having some sort of an affair with this OM, i would be more shocked as the way she manages ti hide it and keep up a family good life then the cheating in it self!


----------



## tom67

Francesco said:


> with my friend we agreed to go with our plan only when and if she gets busted red handed.... in the meanwhile i just need to keep my guard up.
> I agree with who said that i need to date more and work less...
> If she is having some sort of an affair with this OM, i would be more shocked as the way she manages ti hide it and keep up a family good life then the cheating in it self!


Like Reagan said about the soviets "trust but verify"
At least for the short term.


----------



## Chaparral

Francesco said:


> with my friend we agreed to go with our plan only when and if she gets busted red handed.... in the meanwhile i just need to keep my guard up.
> I agree with who said that i need to date more and work less...
> If she is having some sort of an affair with this OM, i would be more shocked as the way she manages ti hide it and keep up a family good life then the cheating in it self!


Hopefully this true. But hand holding, caressing her cheek, their familiarity, leaves no doubt the other Mann is playing her. No doubt at all. It leaves the question how long it's been going on and why she never mentioned it.


----------



## Chaparral

The other man is pulling classic pick up moves.


----------



## convert

Chaparral said:


> Hopefully this true. But hand holding, caressing her cheek, their familiarity, leaves no doubt the other Mann is playing her. No doubt at all. It leaves the question how long it's been going on and why she never mentioned it.


:iagree:

and for this reason, I would bring in OM's wife even if it causes issues at her work

after some more intel and confrontation as op has mention


----------



## happyman64

The OM knows his tool is gluten free and is worming his way inside her guard.

Patience Francesco. Patience.

And the next time your wife jokes about you replacing her just reply with a big smile in your face something like this.

"I love you dear. I would only replace you if you gave me a reason too."


----------



## Q tip

italianjob said:


> Wife's comment could be a lot of things, related or not to what's going on with the OM, but my impression is that it could be revealing of the tactics that OM has been/is using to get to her. I wouldn't be surprised that the car trips at lunch, if "innocent", turn out to be OM taking her to a celiac friendly restaurant...


Yep, he gains vital info from her and acts the part and showers her with attention...


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> this is what i am wishing also


Then why the secrecy and white face... Think!


----------



## tom67

Q tip said:


> Then why the secrecy and white face... Think!


Exactly:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## italianjob

Francesco said:


> with my friend we agreed to go with our plan only when and if she gets busted red handed.... in the meanwhile i just need to keep my guard up.
> I agree with who said that i need to date more and work less...
> If she is having some sort of an affair with this OM, i would be more shocked as the way she manages ti hide it and keep up a family good life then the cheating in it self!


I think you shouldn't relax too much, Francesco, she might not be already _having_ an affair, but there's a high chance she is building one up. She might be aware of this or not, or only half aware, maybe, but the OM is obviously hitting on her... holding her hand, caressing her face, there's no doubt about this, you are aware of it, aren't you?

1 - Her comment about you replacing her:
might be nothing at all, just some worry about the future, but it is strange to word it like that. Sometimes people that is cheating or is thinking of cheating project their intention on their partner or express some kind of "invitation" to their partner to find somebody else out of guilt and feelings of not being worthy because of actual cheating or of having had "naughty" thoughts about someone else.

2 - Scenario:
The OM has been working on her, maybe he's celiac too, maybe he just heard her talking about it. He became close to her, listens to her and is building up her trust. She might not be aware of OM's real intention and just be happy to have someone who is so understanding and willing to listen. She feels guilty about it and didn't mention him to you because she knows you would think the worse (and you would be right, about him). This situation would explain both the "oh ****" look when you saw them and her words in the weekend.

What I'm trying to tell you is that nothing has really changed since Friday... You still need to gather all the info you can gather and you still absolutely need to STOP what's going on, whatever it is. Because, if the situation is like what I described at point 2 or similar, it may not be an affair yet, but it will be if you do nothing.


----------



## Q tip

italianjob said:


> I think you shouldn't relax too much, Francesco, she might not be already _having_ an affair, but there's a high chance she is building one up. She might be aware of this or not, or only half aware, maybe, but the OM is obviously hitting on her... holding her hand, caressing her face, there's no doubt about this, you are aware of it, aren't you?
> 
> 1 - Her comment about you replacing her:
> might be nothing at all, just some worry about the future, but it is strange to word it like that. Sometimes people that is cheating or is thinking of cheating project their intention on their partner or express some kind of "invitation" to their partner to find somebody else out of guilt and feelings of not being worthy because of actual cheating or of having had "naughty" thoughts about someone else.
> 
> 2 - Scenario:
> The OM has been working on her, maybe he's celiac too, maybe he just heard her talking about it. He became close to her, listens toU her and is building up her trust. She might not be aware of OM's real intention and just be happy to have someone who is so understanding and willing to listen. She feels guilty about it and didn't mention him to you because she knows you would think the worse (and you would be right, about him). This situation would explain both the "oh ****" look when you saw them and her words in the weekend.
> 
> What I'm trying to tell you is that nothing has really changed since Friday... You still need to gather all the info you can gather and you still absolutely need to STOP what's going on, whatever it is. Because, if the situation is like what I described at point 2 or similar, it may not be an affair yet, but it will be if you do nothing.


HE lies he is celiac. Remember if he's playing her, nothing like the truth matters.


----------



## italianjob

Q tip said:


> HE lies he is celiac. Remember if he's playing her, nothing like the truth matters.


Anyway, the point I wanted to make to Francesco is:

- Another guy takes your wife out to lunch one on one, holds her hands, caress her face and she lets him do it.

That is the fact. With a fact like that you don't look the other way, you look into it and put a stop to it.

However positive you think the weekend was...


----------



## Chaparral

Although unintentional, you catching her with the other man was a sh!t test. You didnt pass the test. You didnt stop her from doing it again. Then a third time he's kissing her cheeks. Fourth time their holding hands and he's caressing her face lovingly.

By not having a fit the first time they both lost respect for you. Other man sees a green light. Your wife thinks you don't care. Its wrong but women in affairs blame the husband because they didn't catch then before or right after the cheating started. They think, wrongly, that their husband should know them well enough to see it coming and maned up and put a stop to it. Rdmu saw the other man pat his wifes ass and did nothing. She got played big time by a bondage, fetish guy that played many women. The only clue he ever got and clued him in was seeing her hide her phone screen one time.

Your wife may just think he's being sweet but he has her hooked. Hopefully, he hasn't reeled her in.

No.matter what, you cant let this go on much longer or your family is finished. No more than a few more days. You haven't seen these things like we have here. You can read thousands of the threads here. They follow a script we see followed over and over. The times it turns out there is cheating going on is way over 90% when the spouse gets a gut feeling something is wrong.


----------



## Q tip

Chaparral said:


> Although unintentional, you catching her with the other man was a sh!t test. You didnt pass the test. You didnt stop her from doing it again. Then a third time he's kissing her cheeks. Fourth time their holding hands and he's caressing her face lovingly.
> 
> By not having a fit the first time they both lost respect for you. Other man sees a green light. Your wife thinks you don't care. Its wrong but women in affairs blame the husband because they didn't catch then before or right after the cheating started. They think, wrongly, that their husband should know them well enough to see it coming and maned up and put a stop to it. Rdmu saw the other man pat his wifes ass and did nothing. She got played big time by a bondage, fetish guy that played many women. The only clue he ever got and clued him in was seeing her hide her phone screen one time.
> 
> Your wife may just think he's being sweet but he has her hooked. Hopefully, he hasn't reeled her in.
> 
> No.matter what, you cant let this go on much longer or your family is finished. No more than a few more days. You haven't seen these things like we have here. You can read thousands of the threads here. They follow a script we see followed over and over. The times it turns out there is cheating going on is way over 90% when the spouse gets a gut feeling something is wrong.


:iagree::iagree:

You must take this very seriously. Very very seriously.


----------



## tom67

Q tip said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> 
> You must take this very seriously. Very very seriously.


Time for that transfer.
If your friend doesn't catch them together the next few days it may mean they are cooling off...for now.
Think about contacting his wife...personally!


----------



## italianjob

The surveillance is needed to verify if there is something MORE, if this might have gone physical, and how deep is the rabbit hole in general.

I'm writing this because Francesco's last few posts sound like he's not worried anymore since she was nice to him over the weekend, so nothing's wrong.

I hope he doesn't let it go, because there is something wrong. Maybe it's not a PA, but it's not something you should take lightly. You need to put down your foot anyway. A confrontation, at the very least about boundaries, will be needed.


----------



## Chaparral

Have you checked to see if the other man or his wife are on facebook?

Have you checked the google history on the computer and her phone?

Did you check her phone bill to see if she is deleting texts, phone calls or emails? Have you checked her phone to see if the numbers actually match the names?

Women commonly hide mens numbers under a womans name or a friends name that you know.


----------



## Q tip

A couple of comforting words puts you back to sleep. You have no data or facts showing your marriage is OK. The facts and truth have made you suspicious. 

Secret lunches (secret from you not her friends!), you saw with your own eyes. Decided not to confront. Having her watched. They confirm and worse, holding hands and touches.

I think she's innocent and he is playing her. Bet he has a reputation. Maybe he is on last chances with his wife. Find out. Hope that talk with OMW Happens soon and anonymously. That way if innocent, you won't be found out.


----------



## Q tip

Hoping W does not call to say gotta work late or some other reason to be away. Weekend too.

Consider her behavior could be with any man, not just one. She needs to be aware that not all men have good intentions. Being too nice, POS men sometimes see it differently than being polite. Boundaries matter.


----------



## drifting on

Francesco 

"i just wish that YOU will always be there for me like now!"

I interpret this as she is having an affair or ended it in the last week. Could be why she smiled also when she said it. My WW reacted in a similar fashion. I asked my wife if she was having an affair. After five seconds of silence she responded with, "you have nothing to worry about". Oh and by the way that was said with a smile. So in my opinion she ended things with OM and he held her hand and carressed her face in hopes of continuing. She wishes you will be there because she knows if you find out the truth you will send her packing. Your friend witnessed this hand holdin and facial touches and thought it was so bad that he told you in person instead of phone. 

In my opinion and this is what i would do but do what is best for you. You will not find your smoking gun as the affair ended. Your only choice is to watch on Tuesday and Wednesday confront. Have her suitcase packed and at the front door. Tell her if she passes a poly you will consider taking her back. You will only take her back on the condition that she get a new job, no lunches with males period, and she talk to OM wife with you present about their lunches. That is what I would do. Your wife has been waiting for the hammer to drop and seems to have an excuse (I knew you would ask, we had papers to work on) for any question you ask. You need to disrupt her thought process and shake her mind hard. Good luck to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tobyboy

drifting on said:


> Francesco
> 
> "i just wish that YOU will always be there for me like now!"
> 
> I interpret this as she is having an affair or ended it in the last week. Could be why she smiled also when she said it. My WW reacted in a similar fashion. I asked my wife if she was having an affair. After five seconds of silence she responded with, "you have nothing to worry about". Oh and by the way that was said with a smile. So in my opinion she ended things with OM and he held her hand and carressed her face in hopes of continuing. She wishes you will be there because she knows if you find out the truth you will send her packing. Your friend witnessed this hand holdin and facial touches and thought it was so bad that he told you in person instead of phone.
> 
> In my opinion and this is what i would do but do what is best for you. You will not find your smoking gun as the affair ended. Your only choice is to watch on Tuesday and Wednesday confront. Have her suitcase packed and at the front door. Tell her if she passes a poly you will consider taking her back. You will only take her back on the condition that she get a new job, no lunches with males period, and she talk to OM wife with you present about their lunches. That is what I would do. Your wife has been waiting for the hammer to drop and seems to have an excuse (I knew you would ask, we had papers to work on) for any question you ask. You need to disrupt her thought process and shake her mind hard. Good luck to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Very possible about it already ended. Maybe OM broke things off with her?


----------



## Dyokemm

I still think the hand-holding and face caressing needs to be addressed, especially in light of the 'white' face terror look she had the first time you saw them together.

More than likely, anything that was going on (IF there is something) is in a major cooling off period...your W knows you and probably understands she barely dodged a bullet there, especially when you showed up unannounced again a few days later.

The gestures that your friend witnessed when he followed them were possibly the result of her informing him that they HAD to cool everything for awhile because you were probably already suspicious (as your second unannounced visit would have confirmed to her), and his tenderness was him reassuring her that he understood but still has feelings for her.

IMO you may be in for a lengthy wait here before they get comfortable enough again where they might slip up.

Her extra loving behavior this week could very well be an attempt to soothe you back to 'sleep' in the M because she is aware your suspicions are up.

This leaves you with the unenviable decision of playing stupid for a long period of time while constantly monitoring as much as you secretly can....or confronting her with her reaction and the TOTALLY unacceptable interactions your friend saw in the near future, knowing that it is far from 'red-handed' evidence of an A.

Personally, I think playing dumb for as long as it takes is the wiser move if you can emotionally handle it.


----------



## italianjob

By the description Francesco gave us of their body Language as witnessed by his friend, I don't think this was a full fledged affair that's been ended recently, or that the Friday lunch featured any special talk (cooling it off, ending things, etc.).
If something like that was going on there would have been a little more "drama" in the way they behaved, and I don't think they would have had that kind of talk in the proximity of their office where any coworker could have witnessed a possible "outburst". If they had to have a "special" talk they would have taken the car and have it in some "safer" place (ie somewhere where it was unlikely that someone who knows them saw them), IMO.

It's true anyway that they could have decided to "cool it off" (albeit not during Friday's lunch) and it could be a problem to find out the whole truth in a short time.


----------



## Francesco

Like i said, i'm not putting down my guard.... what i was trying to say is that if there has been, or still going on an affair, how shocking it would be not only for the affair itself, but how she played a great actress part... better then an Oscar award! 

Today i got my 2 hours covered from 12:00 till 14:00, so i will be checking in person, that friend of mine is borrowing me his motorbike just in case the car come up.

Update when i get back.


----------



## Q tip

It is possible that when you saw them both, he decided to cool down without her knowing he was warming her up. If he does this kind of thing, He's not stupid. His fear is them being seen by you again. (Note the them and you... Players make it seem that way). 

You'll need to find out how long she's been seeing him (Don't say lunch, but seeing him). You should have asked her this that day you saw them. - and go caveman and claim your property. You'll need to demand she never see him again. Ever. 
Have consequences you'll deliver. Shock and awe. Let her know he's a player.

If you can, read the book Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011. A good read for any guy single or married.

Does she leave for work early or return late? 



Here are notes from a PUA type of guy for you to read.

Findingmyway was a player:
***********************************************

My perspective- as a serial cheat. Before I start, I'm no GQ model look alike and I'm not wealthy.

For me, it was always about extra sex. The thrill of the chase and ego boost was a plus, but I just wanted more sex than my wife did. I always loved my wife and certainly never ever wanted to leave her or lose her. Especially not over someone else's wayward wife.

I had a simple method. I used it because it worked. I targeted married women. I figured they were safer for several important reasons.
1- Less likely to be sleeping around with random guys (STDs).
2- Less likely to pull the crazy girlfriend BS and call my wife.
3- In case of an unwanted pregnancy, I had a built in schmuck to pay the tab and would have claimed to have had a vasectomy.

The most important part of being a player is to hide it. I started with shy looks making certain I'd get caught and then doing my best to look embarrassed. If she started to come around more or dress sexier then I'd try a safe compliment. If she called me on my BS (yes, it happened) I simply acted highly offended. After all, I'm a married family man. That usually got me an apology. A few really smart ones just avoided me altogether.

If she accepted the compliment, I knew I had a chance. I never ever wasted time with someone that I didn't want to bed. If the compliment was successful, I simply followed with more as time permitted and just let things develop. Who knew where it would go? When she would speak with me about her frustrations with her husband (they always complained about their husband) I used that to my advantage. If they complained that he didn't do enough with the kids, I was dad of the year. If he didn't help out around the house, I did everything at home so my wife didn't have to. Yes, it was complete BS, but so what. My job was to make them feel special, pretty and needed and to paint the fantasy. After all, my goal was not conversation or friendship. I wanted to score.

Once things progressed and I had to keep it intense unless it was simply a once and done kind of thing. I would do that by pushing her boundaries for sex. Anal, public hook-up whatever. Keep in mind, I'm in it for the sex so I tried for everything I liked and heard more than once statements like... I never even let my husband do that. That was usually with anal, but sometimes public hook-ups also.

I certainly didn't want to be paying for hotel rooms out my pocket. If she wanted to pay, that was fine. Otherwise, we could hook-up anywhere, it didn't matter to me.

I always advised them to keep the secret between us, because it was so special. Actually, I didn't want to get busted. If they got busted, and some did. That was their tough crap to deal with. I certainly never vowed to love/honor/cherish them.

As I look back, I'm stunned at how easy it was and how many fell for my crap. I had some that would try to pull away and I'd feed them the star crossed lovers BS, you know... kept apart by the cruel hand of fate. That worked like magic to seal the deal. I also used things like I think my wife may have cheated on me. Then I'd work in how I got tested for STDs and it was clear and somehow manage to mention my vasectomy (never had one). Understand? I'm safe, you won't catch anything if you sleep with me and I won't get you pregnant. That was the message.

The one thing that sent me running was the fear of getting caught and sometimes I just wanted a quick bang and wasn't in it for a couple of months of an affair. I'm still also amazed by how many didn't see through my crap either. They didn't have to deal with the day to day stresses that adults face with me (finances, mortgages, car payments, child care, time commitments, etc.). With me, it was just fun and sex. The poor bastard at home didn't have a chance once the play was in motion. It also helped me to see him as a douche-bag when his wife whined about him for whatever reason.

I work with a woman that has lost everything over an affair with me. The house, husband, family, etc. It's difficult to see. She hates me now, but I never vowed anything to her or forced her to do anything. That's her tough crap. Her kids are in therapy, their grades tanked and she's struggling financially and the kids blame her, etc. Honestly, I wish she'd quit so I didn't have to see her every freaking day.


I do know a few like me that I consider even worse. They brag and laugh about getting wayward wives to do things and try to get email or text proof to show off. It's pretty easy, just tell her how much he liked doing X with her last night and let her respond. Then they had proof to brag about and trade notes. I didn't do that. I just wanted the sex and avoided the women they talked about. I liked to find the ones who would seem to be the last to ever do anything like this. Goes back to my 3 reasons.

I never flirted with a married woman unless I wanted in her pants. Plain and simple, you do have to hide it so they don't see it coming, but it's really that basic. Other players use different methods, but we all use what works and modify sometimes if we're not progressing to try a different angle. Not all women are the same, and sometimes deviations are required if she'll let you in her pants.

It was never about love, just sex. I sold the fantasy, yes. But that is all it ever was. A fair trade. They were adults and quite frankly should have known better. Am I a predator, I certainly never thought so and I certainly never thought about what would happen to them when we were done. Yes, all my affairs ended. Most stayed married to their H they *****ed about and screwed around on. Therefore, he must not have been that bad. People just get caught up with unrealistic expectations on life I think. For goodness sake, Prince charming is only charming because he wants a blow job.

Before I close, I'll say this as well. An engaged woman would have worked for me also, but I never found one that would go for me. Also, newly married women are much harder to get. I had the best luck with women who had been married for at least several years, throw a kid or two in the mix and they were usually more susceptible to being chased.

It was a fair trade. Attention and compliments for sex.


----------



## italianjob

Francesco said:


> Like i said, i'm not putting down my guard.... what i was trying to say is that if there has been, or still going on an affair, how shocking it would be not only for the affair itself, but how she played a great actress part... better then an Oscar award!
> 
> Today i got my 2 hours covered from 12:00 till 14:00, so i will be checking in person, that friend of mine is borrowing me his motorbike just in case the car come up.
> 
> Update when i get back.


People can give great performances if needed. Moreover, as I tried to explain, she might be herself convinced that there's nothing wrong about it, if he's been playing her and this has not gone physical, so her "peformance" might even be sincere...


----------



## Q tip

Yep. Because she is not aware he's playing her. That happens when it's too late. Then!!! She needs to act and be convincing.


----------



## Tobyboy

How many times have we read here about cheaters "trying to break things off before" but would break NC within a couple of days and resume the affair? 
If by a slim chance, what the friend witnessed was a breakup, they are likely to resume it soon anyways. 

I guess we will know soon enough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RWB

No Offence, but...

Am I the only One (Spidey Senses Up)? Way to much CSI drama?


----------



## Chaparral

I have a question for Francesco and Italionjob. Is a man holding hands and caressing a married woman's, coworkers, friend's cheek, going to lunch dates considered normal in Italy. Under what circumstances?

I know you said kissing both cheeks was common, but among coworkers? How close do you have to be to kiss another persons cheeks when you depart? Would lovers do that or kiss on the lips?


----------



## Kevinb

drifting on said:


> Francesco
> 
> "i just wish that YOU will always be there for me like now!"
> 
> I interpret this as she is having an affair or ended it in the last week. Could be why she smiled also when she said it. My WW reacted in a similar fashion. I asked my wife if she was having an affair. After five seconds of silence she responded with, "you have nothing to worry about". Oh and by the way that was said with a smile. So in my opinion she ended things with OM and he held her hand and carressed her face in hopes of continuing. She wishes you will be there because she knows if you find out the truth you will send her packing. Your friend witnessed this hand holdin and facial touches and thought it was so bad that he told you in person instead of phone.
> 
> In my opinion and this is what i would do but do what is best for you. You will not find your smoking gun as the affair ended. Your only choice is to watch on Tuesday and Wednesday confront. Have her suitcase packed and at the front door. Tell her if she passes a poly you will consider taking her back. You will only take her back on the condition that she get a new job, no lunches with males period, and she talk to OM wife with you present about their lunches. That is what I would do. Your wife has been waiting for the hammer to drop and seems to have an excuse (I knew you would ask, we had papers to work on) for any question you ask. You need to disrupt her thought process and shake her mind hard. Good luck to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh my goodness...you are kidding...right?


----------



## italianjob

RWB said:


> No Offence, but...
> 
> Am I the only One (Spidey Senses Up)? Way to much CSI drama?


Unlikely... Anything is possible of course, but I can tell you that the OP is surely Italian (the little mistakes in translation and sentence construction are typical). I don't think he would make things up on an international board.


----------



## italianjob

Chaparral said:


> I have a question for Francesco and Italionjob. Is a man holding hands and caressing a married woman's, coworkers, friend's cheek, going to lunch dates considered normal in Italy. Under what circumstances?
> 
> I know you said kissing both cheeks was common, but among coworkers? How close do you have to be to kiss another persons cheeks when you depart? Would lovers do that or kiss on the lips?


Kissing cheeks is quite common. If done the correct way it's not actual kissing, you touch lightly the other person's cheek with your cheek and kiss the air on one side then the other.

Going to lunch one on one may happen and it's not considered inappropriate if it doesn't happen regularly, obviously given that there are several people working together. Holding hands and caressing is Always inappropriate if done one on one. It may be done in a playful way if the spouse is present.


----------



## drifting on

Kevinb said:


> Oh my goodness...you are kidding...right?


Kevinb

Not in the least. Their culture is different than U.S.. My WW is Italian, and they are old school, meaning they practice some of the Italian culture here. Kissing of the cheeks is common. However facial caressing is not. I agree with the poster she is two steps ahead of Francesco. It took me two and a half years to finally get my WW to confess. Do you want that for Francesco? I don't. It was hell and I wanted die by any means possible. With her turning white gettin out of the car says it all. How many times did Francesco pop in at lunch? How many times was she with OM? All but one. Kevinb where there is smoke there is fire. Francesco wife needs to have her feet pulled from under her the same as my WW needed to. My WW said she was disappointed I didn't kick the crap out of her OM when I only had a gut feeling. So she went physical with OM. Do you want that for Francesco? I don't. 

Francesco is stuck between a rock and a hard place. However Francesco decides to react is what he needs to do. He said he would confront on Wednesday based on evidence he finds. I support Francesco in what he wants to do. In my post I stated what I would do now. If I had I wouldn't be in R with a WW wife. Sometimes life requires you to be an a$$hole.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Francesco, have you ever caught your wife telling small lies or big lies?

The day she was seen holding hands, were they sitting close to each other, across the table? Could they have been talking about her parents and he was consoling her or were they smiling and laughing?


----------



## G.J.

It sounds as if Francesco is getting cold feet and will not go through a confrontation tomorrow

I do hope he weighs up what that could mean if a PA hasn't happened yet as he can not be there all the time and a PA may well follow


----------



## Yeswecan

G.J. said:


> It sounds as if Francesco is getting cold feet and will not go through a confrontation tomorrow
> 
> I do hope he weighs up what that could mean if a PA hasn't happened yet as he can not be there all the time and a PA may well follow


I do not believe Francesco has enough to confront....IMO. There is still that fine line of doubt.


----------



## happyman64

Francesco is being smart & patient.

Give him the time he needs to deal with his wife.

Her behavior not only troubles him but has surprised him.

He is using his head and has local support from a trusted friend.

He will get to the bottom of this issue and deal with his wife appropriately.

Of this I am sure.

HM


----------



## G.J.

Yeswecan said:


> I do not believe Francesco has enough to confront....IMO. There is still that fine line of doubt.



1.She was caught twice coming out of a co workers car and acted in *Francesca's* eyes in a way that was not her normal demure

2.She was wondering when asked by Francesca when he would ask about that (the car)
Why would she be wondering if what she was doing wasn't anything that her husband should concern him self about

3.She was seen going to lunch with two girls and the male co worker when the two of them split from the two girls to have their lunch in a different place.
There the male was observed to touch her face and hold her hand in an inappropriate way to the extent a third party who was observing felt he had to inform Francesco by meeting him instead of over the phone as he felt it was inappropriate I would conclude from his action
The observers words


> He said that there was many sign's of confidence between them. He said that he didn't like the way she behaved


Its an* inappropriate* boundary issues at least

If left unchecked it could develop into a PA as he can not be there constantly

And a few days ago at the weekend her commnet about him not leaving her..may mean nothing may mean a lot

Sure get more proof
but much longer if he can't cover her at all times then I wouldn't risk it

If he decides to confront he has a lot of options to add weight to the confrontation by different ploys and bluffs


.


----------



## Kevinb

Kevinb said:


> Oh my goodness...you are kidding...right?


DO, I appreciate that you have experience this situation and of course I would like to see the best for Francesco.

It's just that what you wish him to do sounds very full on especially if there is nothing going on and indeed his wife's only wrong doing was crossing some boundaries...which indeed in her mind may not be the case.

To have her bags packed and waiting for her and to demand her to take a polygraph in my opinion is not how you treat someone you love and have a family with especially based on what has happened to date.

Your situation may of been different. But thank you and I do take your point just don't agree with it.


----------



## Yeswecan

happyman64 said:


> Francesco is being smart & patient.
> 
> Give him the time he needs to deal with his wife.
> 
> Her behavior not only troubles him but has surprised him.
> 
> He is using his head and has local support from a trusted friend.
> 
> He will get to the bottom of this issue and deal with his wife appropriately.
> 
> Of this I am sure.
> 
> HM


:iagree:


G.J: I think Francesco wants to find that smoking gun. Confronting now my drive the entire ordeal underground. If that is the case, what is done is done.


----------



## happyman64

And the guy was blindsided. He needs the facts or at least enough conviction to haul her butt in and get truthful answers from her.


----------



## G.J.

I agree in a perfect scenario more proof

But with everything he has said about her and the actions it all points to boundary issues *at the minute* and that is what worries me
How many marriages could have been saved if they had been caught at the embryo stages

This is one of the few cases I wouldn't risk waiting very long before confrontation as there's no way he will be able to cover her fully for 
a couple of months
If its cooled for a time that's what will be needed - after the car incident it will obviously be cooled

If she's gone PA already then its too late and driving it under ground will only mean it will be longer before they divorce as she will 
eventually make a mistake or Francesco's continual looking will uncover some thing eventfully...how terrible though if its not 
gone PA and it does in a couple of weeks while he's trying to find out and it could have been stopped now

.


----------



## drifting on

Kevinb said:


> DO, I appreciate that you have experience this situation and of course I would like to see the best for Francesco.
> 
> It's just that what you wish him to do sounds very full on especially if there is nothing going on and indeed his wife's only wrong doing was crossing some boundaries...which indeed in her mind may not be the case.
> 
> To have her bags packed and waiting for her and to demand her to take a polygraph in my opinion is not how you treat someone you love and have a family with especially based on what has happened to date.
> 
> Your situation may of been different. But thank you and I do take your point just don't agree with it.


Kevinb

Agree to disagree is a position I am fine with. Best result I can hope for is that I am wrong and Francesco has served me up crow to eat. What concerns me is the time together they have. I don't know if they work alone or in a group. His wife stated they had to get papers ready and they spent time alone for lunch. What about when not on lunch? I didn't interpret the papers as a group but them together only. She got out of his car and went white after returning LATE from lunch alone with OM. Francesco can take that as a sign of guilt, I haven't turned white unless I was guilty. 

As for the wishes he would be there later as well as now, or however her direct quote was, she knows he will leave. He will replace her, she is projecting her fears to him about what he discovers. Of course this is my opinion and I pray I'm wrong. But I believe the affair ended and because Francesco will leave she will never confess. Much like the hell I went through. Today is my d-day, I found out one year ago today. I shouldn't be posting but I feel for Francesco. I also stated packing her bag and demanding a poly is the route I would take after what I went through. I triggered like hell throughout this thread and it is eerily similar to my story. 

Francesco if I offended you with my post I am deeply sorry. I walked in your shoes and have been in that hard place.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Yeswecan

G.J. said:


> I agree in a perfect scenario more proof
> 
> But with everything he has said about her and the actions it all points to boundary issues *at the minute* and that is what worries me
> How many marriages could have been saved if they had been caught at the embryo stages
> 
> This is one of the few cases I wouldn't risk waiting very long before confrontation as there's no way he will be able to cover her fully for
> a couple of months
> If its cooled for a time that's what will be needed - after the car incident it will obviously be cooled
> 
> If she's gone PA already then its too late and driving it under ground will only mean it will be longer before they divorce as she will
> eventually make a mistake or Francesco's continual looking will uncover some thing eventfully...how terrible though if its not
> gone PA and it does in a couple of weeks while he's trying to find out and it could have been stopped now
> 
> .


Francesco:


> One of the reasons why i married her was because she had great morals. For sure i will not blow out something without solid proof.... but if something is going on that i will be certain of, then not even 40 years of marriage will make me change my mind on leaving her...


Francesco spelled it out many posts ago. He wants proof positive. If it is found W is living another life at lunch time Francesco will D.


----------



## Tobyboy

It's around 6pm Italy time. Francesco has been consistent with his updates. All this leads one to believe that he observed something and has confronted. Or he got into an accident riding that damm scooter.


----------



## Yeswecan

drifting on said:


> As for the wishes he would be there later as well as now, or however her direct quote was, she knows he will leave. He will replace her, she is projecting her fears to him about what he discovers. Of course this is my opinion and I pray I'm wrong. But I believe the affair ended and because Francesco will leave she will never confess.


Concerning what we know this appears to be a logical assessment.


----------



## convert

Tobyboy said:


> It's around 6pm Italy time. Francesco has been consistent with his updates. All this leads one to believe that he observed something and has confronted. Or he got into an accident riding that damm scooter.


yea he has not check-in about todays lunch. I hope everything is OK


----------



## Chaparral

I think he said he posts from work. If the sh!t hit the fan I doubt he went back to work. It's about six thirty there now. 

I'm hoping prayers are answered for Francesco.


----------



## drifting on

G.J. said:


> I agree in a perfect scenario more proof
> 
> But with everything he has said about her and the actions it all points to boundary issues *at the minute* and that is what worries me
> How many marriages could have been saved if they had been caught at the embryo stages
> 
> This is one of the few cases I wouldn't risk waiting very long before confrontation as there's no way he will be able to cover her fully for
> a couple of months
> If its cooled for a time that's what will be needed - after the car incident it will obviously be cooled
> 
> If she's gone PA already then its too late and driving it under ground will only mean it will be longer before they divorce as she will
> eventually make a mistake or Francesco's continual looking will uncover some thing eventfully...how terrible though if its not
> gone PA and it does in a couple of weeks while he's trying to find out and it could have been stopped now
> 
> .


In my opinion the OM and her broke it off when he touched her face. I say this because she didn't balk at all when he touched her face or held her hand. Francesco's friend said her behavior was inappropriate. Maybe she leaned into his hand with her face or she gripped his hand when he held hers. As for going underground it did the moment Francesco asked why she was in his car and she had an answer at the ready. Her response was premeditated and thought out. They will now enjoy each others company at work that cannot be monitored. So continuing with my opinion he may as well confront whenever he wants. He will most likely not find anything more. That's how my WW did it with me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kevinb

drifting on said:


> Kevinb
> 
> Agree to disagree is a position I am fine with. Best result I can hope for is that I am wrong and Francesco has served me up crow to eat. What concerns me is the time together they have. I don't know if they work alone or in a group. His wife stated they had to get papers ready and they spent time alone for lunch. What about when not on lunch? I didn't interpret the papers as a group but them together only. She got out of his car and went white after returning LATE from lunch alone with OM. Francesco can take that as a sign of guilt, I haven't turned white unless I was guilty.
> 
> As for the wishes he would be there later as well as now, or however her direct quote was, she knows he will leave. He will replace her, she is projecting her fears to him about what he discovers. Of course this is my opinion and I pray I'm wrong. But I believe the affair ended and because Francesco will leave she will never confess. Much like the hell I went through. Today is my d-day, I found out one year ago today. I shouldn't be posting but I feel for Francesco. I also stated packing her bag and demanding a poly is the route I would take after what I went through. I triggered like hell throughout this thread and it is eerily similar to my story.
> 
> Francesco if I offended you with my post I am deeply sorry. I walked in your shoes and have been in that hard place.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I feel for you mate and at the same time envy you. I wish I had the opportunity to reconcile with my wife.
Take Care and All The Best
Kev


----------



## drifting on

Kevinb said:


> I feel for you mate and at the same time envy you. I wish I had the opportunity to reconcile with my wife.
> Take Care and All The Best
> Kev


Kevinb

Nothing but respect for you on my end. I'm sorry for what happened to you. Thank you for the kind words. Stay strong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wmn1

G.J. said:


> I agree in a perfect scenario more proof
> 
> But with everything he has said about her and the actions it all points to boundary issues *at the minute* and that is what worries me
> How many marriages could have been saved if they had been caught at the embryo stages
> 
> This is one of the few cases I wouldn't risk waiting very long before confrontation as there's no way he will be able to cover her fully for
> a couple of months
> If its cooled for a time that's what will be needed - after the car incident it will obviously be cooled
> 
> If she's gone PA already then its too late and driving it under ground will only mean it will be longer before they divorce as she will
> eventually make a mistake or Francesco's continual looking will uncover some thing eventfully...how terrible though if its not
> gone PA and it does in a couple of weeks while he's trying to find out and it could have been stopped now
> 
> .


I agree. If this thing is hot, it could become a PA while he's still investigating.

It's already been a while and he's still digging. He has to do something soon, like immediately


----------



## Q tip

Patience...


...in time, grass turns to milk.


His priorities are protecting his marriage. We are secondary advisors. He is a man and will deal with this.


----------



## Chaparral

i doubt if it hasn't gone physical already it will soon. The plates plans should be disrupted for now by Fancescos actions and his wife's conversation with him. 

Whatever is going on is inaproppriate. I just thinks she is playing with fire.


----------



## G.J.

I hate this waiting as I expect with a lot on here we can project our self's easily into Francesco's shoes

Life can be a bvtch


----------



## Q tip

Hoping he has a plan. Exposure too as required by the facts.

Worst case. Expose to OM wife and family and friends and his BOSS at work. Expose wife to her family and OP family and friends To gain their support. This will prevent her from lying and rewriting marital history. He will decide what he will do with her. She lost her vote. 

Medium case. No EA/PA but getting there... Expose to OMW his boss.
Read OMW the riot act, never to see W ever again. Have W transfer away, or OM does. His and her family should know about this. Boundaries discussion. What PUA are up to and how they operate around the world. Wife to NC and never one on one lunches ever. 

Zero issues. Boundaries discussion and what players/PUA do. A player does not have vows to her or her marriage. She does. She needs tight boundaries no matter what. All else is her fairly tales... No one on one lunches ever. NC

Absolute open truth. No hiding anything. Ever. Not speaking is deception. Accounts,maps swords, device access always.

Other ideas to help?


----------



## Chaparral

I don't think this Is good. It's all ready about 9:00 pm there.


----------



## Francesco

Another day without surprises.. don't know if i should be happy or not.

Got at her place around 12:20, and kept myself at a safe distance. I saw the OM come out with 2 male coworkers and they walked away , not even 5 minutes after my wife with 3 female coworkers came out and crossed the street to have lunch at that place from the day before. Only the 4 of them.
So I waited a bit and was undecided to what to do... i thought about calling her on the cell. or just walk over there and surprise her, but i didn't think it was a good idea...
So i just stood there watching untill they finished and went back in.. 
I stayed a bit longer to see if OM would show up, but it didn't happen ether.
So i wasted my time for something that didn't happen. 
I went back to work and finished my day as usual. Now i'm home typing here and to be honest quit sorry for myself for feeling this way.

I made a decision now. I will let this week go by without torturing myself. I need to relax, otherwise my negativity will reflect on my kids.

I did have a talk with my friend before comming home, he agreed that i stay put for now, and that he would take care of the situation without involving me. That made me smile a bit and made me understand what a good friend he is.... in the past i was the one who always helped him and others.

Anyway, i have been reading all the post's and concerns of everyone here, and i appreciate it. This is a great place, thank you all


----------



## G.J.

Francesco said:


> I did have a talk with my friend before comming home, he agreed that i stay put for now, and that *he would take care of the situation without involving me*.


What does this mean Francesco ?
Hopefully full surveillance..please say that's what it means 
e.g. lunch breaks


----------



## Yeswecan

Francesco said:


> Another day without surprises.. don't know if i should be happy or not.
> 
> Got at her place around 12:20, and kept myself at a safe distance. I saw the OM come out with 2 male coworkers and they walked away , not even 5 minutes after my wife with 3 female coworkers came out and crossed the street to have lunch at that place from the day before. Only the 4 of them.
> So I waited a bit and was undecided to what to do... i thought about calling her on the cell. or just walk over there and surprise her, but i didn't think it was a good idea...
> So i just stood there watching untill they finished and went back in..
> I stayed a bit longer to see if OM would show up, but it didn't happen ether.
> So i wasted my time for something that didn't happen.
> I went back to work and finished my day as usual. Now i'm home typing here and to be honest quit sorry for myself for feeling this way.
> 
> I made a decision now. I will let this week go by without torturing myself. I need to relax, otherwise my negativity will reflect on my kids.
> 
> I did have a talk with my friend before comming home, he agreed that i stay put for now, and that he would take care of the situation without involving me. That made me smile a bit and made me understand what a good friend he is.... in the past i was the one who always helped him and others.
> 
> Anyway, i have been reading all the post's and concerns of everyone here, and i appreciate it. This is a great place, thank you all


I do not feel you wasted a day here. I do feel is you have a wake up call to your marriage and it is time to work on it. 

Let's look at your situation:
-elderly parents needing assistance(stressful)
-both work(stressful)
-kids(love them but stressful at times)
-keeping house and finances in order(stressful)
-at the bottom of the list here is your W and you(got to make the time for each other without fail)

You see, routine can be a breeding ground for issues in a relationship. Your lives appear to be a routine. The entire thread you had down to the minute who was were and why. Break the routine. Turn youf W on her head(figuratively) with a complete change in you and routine. Do the unexpected. In short, start romancing your W again......

Let your friend work the other side for you. After all, this is what friends are for.


----------



## Francesco

G.J. said:


> What does this mean Francesco ?
> Hopefully full surveillance..please say that's what it means
> e.g. lunch breaks


when i dropped back his bike we had a talk. He saw me and understood that i wasn't my normal self. 
He told me to live my usual life, and that he would take care of the surveillance with a couple of his friends coworkers. He also said that only in case something would be out of place he would call me.
then we gave each other a hug and tomorrow we would meet up for our soccer night


----------



## Yeswecan

Francesco said:


> when i dropped back his bike we had a talk. He saw me and understood that i wasn't my normal self.
> He told me to live my usual life, and that he would take care of the surveillance with a couple of his friends coworkers. He also said that only in case something would be out of place he would call me.
> then we gave each other a hug and tomorrow we would meet up for our soccer night


Take his offer to watch and report! Concentrate on your W at home.


----------



## G.J.

Francesco said:


> when i dropped back his bike we had a talk. He saw me and understood that i wasn't my normal self.
> He told me to live my usual life, and that he would take care of the surveillance with a couple of his friends coworkers. He also said that only in case something would be out of place he would call me.
> then we gave each other a hug and tomorrow we would meet up for our soccer night


If that means her lunch breaks will always be covered and an intervention if some thing happens e.g. they go to a motel
Then that's good


----------



## Francesco

Yeswecan said:


> Take his offer to watch and report! Concentrate on your W at home.


thats what he told me!


----------



## Suspecting2014

Francesco said:


> G.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> What does this mean Francesco ?
> Hopefully full surveillance..please say that's what it means
> e.g. lunch breaks
> 
> 
> 
> when i dropped back his bike we had a talk. He saw me and understood that i wasn't my normal self.
> He told me to live my usual life, and that he would take care of the surveillance with a couple of his friends coworkers. He also said that only in case something would be out of place he would call me.
> then we gave each other a hug and tomorrow we would meet up for our soccer night
Click to expand...

This is wise decision. You need to cool down and get some pespective to this all thing.

At this moment all you know for sure is a lack of boundaries but nothing more. There is still hope.

Keep venting if needed.

Good luck


----------



## Dyokemm

That 'white' face of terror on the first day and the surprise visit again a few days later have obviously put an end to anything going on for the near future.

Your W is obviously terrified of you finding out anything and she has to KNOW you are suspicious after this.

If that was all the evidence you had, I would not be too concerned about what you are facing.

But there is something about that other day of inappropriate boundary crossing witnessed by your friend that really has my intuition sounding alarms.

Leaving with 2 females then splitting off for total privacy for their intimate moment....its almost like they walked out together on the off chance you would be there...sorta a demonstration that they weren't just lunching together alone.

Then when they realized you were not there, they quickly found a place to be private.

And the gestures your friend saw really seem to me to be those of reassuring each other about their feelings...and this is followed by several days where they are not even seen with each other at lunch....a complete break of the recent pattern.

It all screams to me that they realize you almost busted them and are now going all out to seem innocent to co-workers and you if you were to show up.

They are definitely in a cooling off period to avoid being caught IMO....how long it lasts before they get comfortable again is guesswork.

Of course it could all be nothing and there is no A.

BUT that cheek caress....that says it all IMO.

I hope I'm wrong, but my intuition still says some type of A here (maybe not PA yet)....but it is in serious deep freeze right now because those earlier incidents scared the crap out of your WW and POS.


----------



## Yeswecan

Dyokemm said:


> I hope I'm wrong, but my intuition still says some type of A here (maybe not PA yet)....but it is in serious deep freeze right now because those earlier incidents scared the crap out of your WW and POS.


Good. It's were it needs to be for the moment. Permafrost... Let Francesco's friend handle the rest of it for now. Francesco can connect with his W.


----------



## Q tip

And discuss boundaries. This really is not over. She still needs to exlain the caress and hand holding. With truth. Absolute truth. Maybe say she was seen doing something with another man not you. Then shut up and listen. 

Avoid explaining who, what, when. Mouth shut and let her speak. Just say what was going on and do not be distracted by her trying to find out who told you...

Try not to sweep this under the rug. Nothing has really changed. Just no lunch... Perhaps, as I mentioned, he is afraid of being caught. That was you seeing them. That was fear you saw. Him and her.

Keep alert. All eyes and ears. She may say something off.

Since she accepted his advances without resistance. That is still a big issue.


----------



## Tobyboy

Ok. So they didn't go to lunch together today. Yesterday the OM didn't show up. Perhaps they actually had work to perform and had to many prying eyes. Still, doesn't negate what went on all last week. Your friend has offer to take over the surveillance. He knows what's it's doing to you. He also knows what is likely happening. Prepare yourself Francesco.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## G.J.

One question not asked or answered is

1.What days were the car incidents

2.what days they just went to lunch and the touching holding hands


----------



## Q tip

Maybe they meet once or twice a month to avoid notice. I hope OP friends have a handle on the potential here. They really need to understand the OM reputation and involvement with women.

And speak with OMW. She may have info or at least draw attention to her H and watch him too. So far he gets away clean.

Would you want to be contacted by his W is she knew what you know? Is it fair to her?

What are your friends plans?


----------



## Chaparral

Dyokemm said:


> That 'white' face of terror on the first day and the surprise visit again a few days later have obviously put an end to anything going on for the near future.
> 
> Your W is obviously terrified of you finding out anything and she has to KNOW you are suspicious after this.
> 
> If that was all the evidence you had, I would not be too concerned about what you are facing.
> 
> But there is something about that other day of inappropriate boundary crossing witnessed by your friend that really has my intuition sounding alarms.
> 
> Leaving with 2 females then splitting off for total privacy for their intimate moment....its almost like they walked out together on the off chance you would be there...sorta a demonstration that they weren't just lunching together alone.
> 
> Then when they realized you were not there, they quickly found a place to be private.
> 
> And the gestures your friend saw really seem to me to be those of reassuring each other about their feelings...and this is followed by several days where they are not even seen with each other at lunch....a complete break of the recent pattern.
> 
> It all screams to me that they realize you almost busted them and are now going all out to seem innocent to co-workers and you if you were to show up.
> 
> They are definitely in a cooling off period to avoid being caught IMO....how long it lasts before they get comfortable again is guesswork.
> 
> Of course it could all be nothing and there is no A.
> 
> BUT that cheek caress....that says it all IMO.
> 
> I hope I'm wrong, but my intuition still says some type of A here (maybe not PA yet)....but it is in serious deep freeze right now because those earlier incidents scared the crap out of your WW and POS.


I think the tipping point was this past weekend. Meeting at least two more times, hand holding, touching her cheek shows they were definitely not worried about being seen. This past weekend however, it was brought up that the only reason you would leave her would be if she cheated. While she may have looked innocent, added to her being caught getting out of his car twice, she put two and two together and figured out you weren't as calm about things as she thought. Affair or not, I believe she now thinks you suspect her and she has stopped the lunches with the other man.

There are about a dozen red flags flying. I have no doubt the other man was/is trying to seduce her. His attention has definitely thrilled her and she has been more amorous with you. Maybe like a school girl crush.

Also, even your daughter picked up on your hurt mood. I doubt your wife hasn't picked up on it too. My wife can pick my mood up before I even know I'm in a down mood. Women are expert at emotions.

I think she has enjoyed the attention but may now realize things have gone too far. You bringing up cheating came out of nowhere. I'll bet that hit her like a rock, if not immediately it did after she thought about it.

Have you ever caught her in any kind of lie before?


----------



## italianjob

Well, your friend taking over the investigation for awhile is a good idea, he and his colleagues are professionals, so you can rely on things being done the way they should be done and at the same time try to relax a little on that front.

So, two "uneventful" days give you at least the idea that things aren't so intense as they looked at first glance You had a 3 for 3 with the same coworker, so it looked like they were together at every lunch break, but now we know this is not the case. 

I wouldn't read too much into this either way. Sure they might have been cooling it off on purpose, but it's not necessarily so. Work assignments take precedence so if the OM was out for duty Yesterday and had work matters or an assignment to carry on with the two men you saw him with today, he couldn't be available for lunch (you didn't see them come back, so it's possible). 

The way I see it, the fact that she never changes her normal schedule (except for lunch breaks), and that they sometimes need to be separated at lunch time might indicate that they're still in the "building up" phase (lovers in a full on affair would try to make up for lost time in another moment of the day, especially if they couldn't meet for two consecutive days, and you would notice).

You saw them out by car in two different weeks, was it on the same day and what day was it? Maybe they habitually go wherever they go by car on a specific day every week.


----------



## G.J.

Chaparral said:


> even your daughter picked up on your hurt mood. I doubt your wife hasn't picked up on it too.


Well spotted I missed that


----------



## Q tip

Chaparral said:


> I think the tipping point was this past weekend. Meeting at least two more times, hand holding, touching her cheek shows they were definitely not worried about being seen. This past weekend however, it was brought up that the only reason you would leave her would be if she cheated. While she may have looked innocent, added to her being caught getting out of his car twice, she put two and two together and figured out you weren't as calm about things as she thought. Affair or not, I believe she now thinks you suspect her and she has stopped the lunches with the other man.
> 
> There are about a dozen red flags flying. I have no doubt the other man was/is trying to seduce her. His attention has definitely thrilled her and she has been more amorous with you. Maybe like a school girl crush.
> 
> Also, even your daughter picked up on your hurt mood. I doubt your wife hasn't picked up on it too. My wife can pick my mood up before I even know I'm in a down mood. Women are expert at emotions.
> 
> I think she has enjoyed the attention but may now realize things have gone too far. You bringing up cheating came out of nowhere. I'll bet that hit her like a rock, if not immediately it did after she thought about it.
> 
> Have you ever caught her in any kind of lie before?


Excellent. She needs to communicate this openly. Freely and completely.


----------



## Q tip

italianjob said:


> Well, your friend taking over the investigation for awhile is a good idea, he and his colleagues are professionals, so you can rely on things being done the way they should be done and at the same time try to relax a little on that front.
> 
> So, two "uneventful" days give you at least the idea that things aren't so intense as they looked at first glance You had a 3 for 3 with the same coworker, so it looked like they were together at every lunch break, but now we know this is not the case.
> 
> I wouldn't read too much into this either way. Sure they might have been cooling it off on purpose, but it's not necessarily so. Work assignments take precedence so if the OM was out for duty Yesterday and had work matters or an assignment to carry on with the two men you saw him with today, he couldn't be available for lunch (you didn't see them come back, so it's possible).
> 
> The way I see it, the fact that she never changes her normal schedule (except for lunch breaks), and that they sometimes need to be separated at lunch time might indicate that they're still in the "building up" phase (lovers in a full on affair would try to make up for lost time in another moment of the day, especially if they couldn't meet for two consecutive days, and you would notice).
> 
> You saw them out by car in two different weeks, was it on the same day and what day was it? Maybe they habitually go wherever they go by car on a specific day every week.


It also implies something IS WRONG with those one on one dates. There was secrecy...


----------



## Chaparral

italianjob said:


> Well, your friend taking over the investigation for awhile is a good idea, he and his colleagues are professionals, so you can rely on things being done the way they should be done and at the same time try to relax a little on that front.
> 
> So, two "uneventful" days give you at least the idea that things aren't so intense as they looked at first glance You had a 3 for 3 with the same coworker, so it looked like they were together at every lunch break, but now we know this is not the case.
> 
> I wouldn't read too much into this either way. Sure they might have been cooling it off on purpose, but it's not necessarily so. Work assignments take precedence so if the OM was out for duty Yesterday and had work matters or an assignment to carry on with the two men you saw him with today, he couldn't be available for lunch (you didn't see them come back, so it's possible).
> 
> The way I see it, the fact that she never changes her normal schedule (except for lunch breaks), and that they sometimes need to be separated at lunch time might indicate that they're still in the "building up" phase (lovers in a full on affair would try to make up for lost time in another moment of the day, especially if they couldn't meet for two consecutive days, and you would notice).
> 
> You saw them out by car in two different weeks, was it on the same day and what day was it? Maybe they habitually go wherever they go by car on a specific day every week.


I like this but my count had it four for four. He saw them twice and his friend saw them twice, no? Four straight and now two straight not having lunch together. Too, too, too, coincidental.

I also wonder if the investigator spotted the tail.


----------



## convert

wish we all had friends like the OP.

oh and btw don't piss-off the Italians




I fixed it


----------



## G.J.

convert said:


> .
> 
> oh and btw don't piss with Italians


oh...do they sneak a peek


----------



## tom67

Chaparral said:


> I like this but my count had it four for four. He saw them twice and his friend saw them twice, no? Four straight and now two straight not having lunch together. Too, too, too, coincidental.
> 
> I also wonder if the investigator spotted the tail.


Good point Chap maybe another cop to fill in.
Waaaay too much of a coincidence imo.


----------



## G.J.

G.J. said:


> One question not asked or answered is
> 
> 1.What days were the car incidents
> 
> 2.what days they just went to lunch and the touching holding hands


Would help


----------



## italianjob

Chaparral said:


> I like this but my count had it four for four. He saw them twice and his friend saw them twice, no? Four straight and now two straight not having lunch together. Too, too, too, coincidental.
> 
> I also wonder if the investigator spotted the tail.


Yeah you're right, actually it was the only time when they had lunch with a group that included other coworkers.


----------



## Francesco

Dyokemm said:


> That 'white' face of terror on the first day and the surprise visit again a few days later have obviously put an end to anything going on for the near future.
> 
> Your W is obviously terrified of you finding out anything and she has to KNOW you are suspicious after this.
> 
> If that was all the evidence you had, I would not be too concerned about what you are facing.
> 
> But there is something about that other day of inappropriate boundary crossing witnessed by your friend that really has my intuition sounding alarms.
> 
> Leaving with 2 females then splitting off for total privacy for their intimate moment....its almost like they walked out together on the off chance you would be there...sorta a demonstration that they weren't just lunching together alone.
> 
> Then when they realized you were not there, they quickly found a place to be private.
> 
> And the gestures your friend saw really seem to me to be those of reassuring each other about their feelings...and this is followed by several days where they are not even seen with each other at lunch....a complete break of the recent pattern.
> 
> It all screams to me that they realize you almost busted them and are now going all out to seem innocent to co-workers and you if you were to show up.
> 
> They are definitely in a cooling off period to avoid being caught IMO....how long it lasts before they get comfortable again is guesswork.
> 
> Of course it could all be nothing and there is no A.
> 
> BUT that cheek caress....that says it all IMO.
> 
> I hope I'm wrong, but my intuition still says some type of A here (maybe not PA yet)....but it is in serious deep freeze right now because those earlier incidents scared the crap out of your WW and POS.


Yes... it might be! in one of my mental stresses i had thought about it also.


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> Maybe they meet once or twice a month to avoid notice. I hope OP friends have a handle on the potential here. They really need to understand the OM reputation and involvement with women.
> 
> And speak with OMW. She may have info or at least draw attention to her H and watch him too. So far he gets away clean.
> 
> Would you want to be contacted by his W is she knew what you know? Is it fair to her?
> 
> What are your friends plans?


His plan is simple.He said that if something comes up during the surveillance he wold take pictures, then hand them to me. At that point the original plan will be put in action. He will go to OMW and inform her while i will be with mine, and then he would give me a call to say it's done and whenever i'm ready to confront my wife at that same moment. Instead, If he see's something that is getting way to far (sex in the car for example) he would bust them interrupting them (recording while doing so) and that wont give them a chance for alibi's.


----------



## Francesco

Chaparral said:


> Have you ever caught her in any kind of lie before?



honestly no.... but then again when you have no reasons to believe so you are kind of blind. right?


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> Well, your friend taking over the investigation for awhile is a good idea, he and his colleagues are professionals, so you can rely on things being done the way they should be done and at the same time try to relax a little on that front.
> 
> So, two "uneventful" days give you at least the idea that things aren't so intense as they looked at first glance You had a 3 for 3 with the same coworker, so it looked like they were together at every lunch break, but now we know this is not the case.
> 
> I wouldn't read too much into this either way. Sure they might have been cooling it off on purpose, but it's not necessarily so. Work assignments take precedence so if the OM was out for duty Yesterday and had work matters or an assignment to carry on with the two men you saw him with today, he couldn't be available for lunch (you didn't see them come back, so it's possible).
> 
> The way I see it, the fact that she never changes her normal schedule (except for lunch breaks), and that they sometimes need to be separated at lunch time might indicate that they're still in the "building up" phase (lovers in a full on affair would try to make up for lost time in another moment of the day, especially if they couldn't meet for two consecutive days, and you would notice).
> 
> *You saw them out by car in two different weeks, was it on the same day and what day was it? Maybe they habitually go wherever they go by car on a specific day every week*.


yes, the first time it was the 23 of December Tuesday, the second time (caught in the traffic) was the 7 January Wednesday .


----------



## Francesco

Chaparral said:


> I like this but my count had it four for four. He saw them twice and his friend saw them twice, no? Four straight and now two straight not having lunch together. Too, too, too, coincidental.
> 
> I also wonder if the investigator spotted the tail.


well, the first 2 times was in 2 different weeks...


----------



## Chaparral

Francesco said:


> honestly no.... but then again when you have no reasons to believe so you are kind of blind. right?


But never having her lie to you is a good sign. Telling you she went together to lunch because they're working together may have been true in that he told her that in the beginning in order for her to agree to go. Realistically though, why would coworkers need to eat together? I suspect it was just a way to get her to let her guard down.

If nothing happens this week, it doesn't mean he isn't trying to seduce her. By the end of the week I would tell her you know how familiar they are, that rumors have been started about them and you won't accept them working together.

Unless your friend catches them in the act, never tell her about having her followed. Never give up your sources, you may need them.


----------



## Chaparral

Francesco said:


> well, the first 2 times was in 2 different weeks...


I meant that the for four straight times you checked on her, she went to lunch with him. The other days of the week you don't know what they did. Now checking them twice this week they did not go together. That seems too much of a coincidence.

Has your friend told you what he believes is going on?


----------



## Francesco

Chaparral said:


> I meant that the for four straight times you checked on her, she went to lunch with him. The other days of the week you don't know what they did. Now checking them twice this week they did not go together. That seems too much of a coincidence.
> 
> Has your friend told you what he believes is going on?


basically he doesn't think that my wife would go out and have sex with any OM as if nothing happened... he thinks that OM seems more like the one wanting that by the way he is gentle and to much considerate.


----------



## Chaparral

Francesco said:


> basically he doesn't think that my wife would go out and have sex with any OM as if nothing happened... he thinks that OM seems more like the one wanting that by the way he is gentle and to much considerate.


I think so too. I hope you're friend is right. I hope she realized what was going on after being with you this weekend. I hope she realizes what is at stake.


----------



## Chaparral

Did your friend mentioned who paid for the lunches?


----------



## Francesco

Chaparral said:


> Did your friend mentioned who paid for the lunches?


no.... but i will tell him to look after that... thanks for the idea.


----------



## Tobyboy

Your wife's work. Does she work as a team or is it more individualized?
Does she does a different job than her coworkers, the females she has lunch with?


----------



## Francesco

Tobyboy said:


> Your wife's work. Does she work as a team or is it more individualized?
> Does she does a different job than her coworkers, the females she has lunch with?


she works as a team but has individual paperwork that she takes care of. The inspectors (also the OM) hand them the paperwork, and they forward it to whom it concerns. Verifying first that all is done well. She does this with other 5 coworkers witch are all females. They work in 2 different rooms 3 per each room with there own desk. And yes she has lunches with them and others from other rooms


----------



## Tobyboy

Francesco said:


> she works as a team but has individual paperwork that she takes care of. The inspectors (also the OM) hand them the paperwork, and they forward it to whom it concerns. Verifying first that all is done well. She does this with other 5 coworkers witch are all females. They work in 2 different rooms 3 per each room with there own desk. And yes she has lunches with them and others from other rooms


That explains a lot!! Does the OM/inspector have his own private office?


----------



## Nucking Futs

If you decide that she hasn't done anything yet but he's working on her you should warn him off. Vigorously, with the help of your friends. Make him understand that it's in his best interest to move on to another target.


----------



## Yeswecan

Francesco said:


> basically he doesn't think that my wife would go out and have sex with any OM as if nothing happened... he thinks that OM seems more like the one wanting that by the way he is gentle and to much considerate.


Seems to be the general consensus here as well. For the record, I too believe OM is playing it.


----------



## Yeswecan

Francesco said:


> she works as a team but has individual paperwork that she takes care of. The inspectors (also the OM) hand them the paperwork, and they forward it to whom it concerns. Verifying first that all is done well. She does this with other 5 coworkers witch are all females. They work in 2 different rooms 3 per each room with there own desk. And yes she has lunches with them and others from other rooms



The question is...do the other female coworkers go individually to lunch with the inspector(OM)?

If not I suspect very much he is making a play for your W.


----------



## italianjob

I agree that there is a high chance that he is/has been playing your wife.

You need to keep in mind, anyway, that, by going with him in one on one situations (in his car) and letting him caress her and hold her hand and generally act physically confident around her, she's playing along.

Even if, as we all hope, this turns out to be nothing really serious, you need to have a serious talk with your wife about boundaries.


----------



## Chaparral

Yeswecan said:


> The question is...do the other female coworkers go individually to lunch with the inspector(OM)?
> 
> If not I suspect very much he is making a play for your W.


HE could be casting a wide net and playing them against each other too. I think he is just after her though. Four straight dates is a lot.


----------



## Francesco

Tobyboy said:


> That explains a lot!! Does the OM/inspector have his own private office?



i don't know.... now you are getting me paranoid again....


----------



## Yeswecan

Chaparral said:


> HE could be casting a wide net and playing them against each other too. I think he is just after her though. Four straight dates is a lot.


Agreed.


----------



## Chaparral

Would it mess things up if Francesco asked her how often she goes to lunch with him? It would be an opportunity to see if she lies about it.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Francesco said:


> i don't know.... now you are getting me paranoid again....


Francesco,

Look, as long as you only have proof of nothing but weak boundaries and questinal behavior you should be calm. As others have pointed out the possibility of him trying to ger in her pants and she, your wife, being blinded abot it and thinking that he is just a good friend is very real. So take it easy.

IMO you are doing the right thing looking for a smoking gun before acuse her of infidelity, as it could damage your relation.

Nevertheless, you need to define a deadline about this wich hunt and then have a conversation with you wife about boundaries, and behavior that make you uncomfortable. At that time, also ask her if any man has hit on her lately, on the street, at work, etc, then you can confusion about what you about weak boundaries.

One thing you could do is vent here in TAM, it helps to put the some order in you mind.


----------



## drifting on

Francesco

Is there any chance OM has a friend that works with friend? I don't think OM noticed the tailing as he held her hand and touched her face. He wouldn't do that if he knew he was being tailed. It certainly appears they were either tipped off or ended the EA / PA and that is what your friend witnessed. My WW made out two to three times a week with OM and sometimes that happened in my WW office. WW just shut the door when privacy was needed. I'm not trying to upset you but a workplace affair is usually more then just lunches. I had talked to my WW when I was suspicious and they cooled off for a week and a half. Then it was back on and went physical. Of course I found all of this out much later. My WW thought I knew and because I didn't beat the OM then she lost respect for me. I would do it all different now knowing what I know. While my opinion is it went physical already, if I were you I would confront OM. Of course non-violently. 

The body language is what disturbs me most. She accepted his touches and advances or he has touched her enough that she was very comfortable with his touching. This is in public, not hidden, and you previously caught her in his car. There she turned white and appeared guilty. Then to laugh and say she knew you were going to ask that, scares the hell out of me. Do you recall whether that laugh when she said that was forced, nervous, or natural? It was an answer she had rehearsed and she is exposing how well her deception skills are. In my opinion they are good as I think the OM is coaching her. Good luck Francesco, I hope your outcome has a good ending for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Suspecting2014

Chaparral said:


> Would it mess things up if Francesco asked her how often she goes to lunch with him? It would be an opportunity to see if she lies about it.


IMO any kind of confromntation at this point may take the affair, if it existi at all, undergrownd.

Asking about going to have lunch with OM alone will set her in damage control mode and they will be much more careful from that moment on.

As Fracesco already ran into them twice, he should take aday off, or half day, and tell her he is going to be away the whole day, this can make them try something at lunchtime that day. And Francesco would be near by to confront.

This, as other ideas, is a long shots so lets wait.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Suspecting2014 said:


> IMO any kind of confromntation at this point may take the affair, if it existi at all, undergrownd.
> 
> Asking about going to have lunch with OM alone will set her in damage control mode and they will be much more careful from that moment on.
> 
> As Fracesco already ran into them twice,* he should take aday off, or half day,* and tell her he is going to be away the whole day, this can make them try something at lunchtime that day. And Francesco would be near by to confront.
> 
> This, as other ideas, is a long shots so lets wait.


Lets all bear in mind that he just took time off for this very thing and nothing happened. I don't think repeatedly taking time off from work on the chance that something might happen that day is sustainable. He's got surveillance in place, it's time to let it work.


----------



## adriana

drifting on said:


> *While my opinion is it went physical already*, if I were you I would confront OM. Of course non-violently.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Unfortunately, I'm getting the same impression. It's rather unlikely that it didn't get physical yet especially considering that their affair doesn't seem to be a secret among her co-workers.


----------



## Kevinb

I'm kinda wondering if this is all for real...does anyone else get that feeling or is it just me?


----------



## Nucking Futs

adriana said:


> Unfortunately, I'm getting the same impression. It's rather unlikely that it didn't get physical yet especially considering that their affair doesn't seem to be a secret among her co-workers.


I'm about 60% that it has gone physical already. I'm just hoping it hasn't.



Kevinb said:


> I'm kinda wondering if this is all for real...does anyone else get that feeling or is it just me?


I do not get that feeling.


----------



## italianjob

It does sound like some kind of inappropriate physical contact has happened, by their behavior during the outdoor lunch. How far it might have gone, however, we have no way to tell, at the moment.

Anyway at this moment I would avoid any kind of confrontation 
- if it's already gone physical (in the worst sense)
it wouldn't change much now
- if it's about to go physical, surveillance will intervene.
- if it's not physical in a serious way yet, surveillance will give Francesco elements for his talk to her (and maybe to him, who knows) about respecting boundaries.

Francesco needs more elements. A series of consecutive days of surveillance will let him see if there is a pattern in their behavior at lunch hour and maybe help him draw some conclusion.


----------



## OlderAndWiser

Kevinb said:


> I'm kinda wondering if this is all for real...does anyone else get that feeling or is it just me?


I got an still have some doubts. Got them with Post #179.

OP has his "social security number"........in Italy?:scratchhead:


----------



## adriana

italianjob said:


> It does sound like some kind of inappropriate physical contact has happened, by their behavior during the outdoor lunch. How far it might have gone, however, we have no way to tell, at the moment.
> 
> Anyway at this moment I would avoid any kind of confrontation
> - if it's already gone physical (in the worst sense)
> it wouldn't change much now
> - if it's about to go physical, surveillance will intervene.
> - if it's not physical in a serious way yet, surveillance will give Francesco elements for his talk to her (and maybe to him, who knows) about respecting boundaries.
> 
> Francesco needs more elements. A series of consecutive days of surveillance will let him see if there is a pattern in their behavior at lunch hour and maybe help him draw some conclusion.



Actually, I'd be rather surprised if surveilance gathered any new evidence. The PO's wife and OM are perfectly aware that Francesco is suspecting that they are having affair. They both have simply too much too lose on personal and professional level to allow themselves to get caught again. They aren't stupid and know how to play this game.... at least it's true for Francesco's wife.

In MHO it's polygraph time for Francesco's wife if he wants to get the truth.


----------



## italianjob

OlderAndWiser said:


> I got an still have some doubts. Got them with Post #179.
> 
> OP has his "social security number"........in Italy?:scratchhead:


Yeah that is strange, I have an idea about what he meant...
What I can tell you is that OP writes thinking in Italian, of that I'm quite sure.


----------



## italianjob

adriana said:


> Actually, I'd be rather surprised if surveilance gathered any new evidence. The PO's wife and OM are perfectly aware that Francesco is suspecting that they are having affair. They both have simply too much too lose on personal and professional level to allow themselves to get caught again. They aren't stupid and know how to play this game.... at least it's true for Francesco's wife.
> 
> In MHO it's polygraph time for Francesco's wife if he wants to get the truth.


I've never heard of a place where you can go and take a polygraph here in Italy. 
Maybe Francesco knowing some policeman can get one, but I assure you that if you go to a police station here in Italy and ask to make your wife take a polygraph they're going to laugh you out of the office.
I think that's off the table around here.


----------



## Tobyboy

Francesco
Can you give us more details about the lunch break when they sat on the bench alone together?
What were their demeanor? Were they serious,happy, or sad...etc.

Who was doing most of the talking?

What was the look on both their faces when OM touch her face and held her hand? 

Your friend knows. Tell him to be honest and not hold back with what he witnessed!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## convert

Italianjob, is it lunch time there yet?


----------



## z_man

italianjob said:


> Yeah that is strange, I have an idea about what he meant...
> What I can tell you is that OP writes thinking in Italian, of that I'm quite sure.


"The Italian fiscal code card, officially known as Italy's Codice Fiscale, is the tax code card in Italy, similar to a Social Security Number (SSN) card in the United States or the National Insurance Number issued in the United Kingdom. The tax code in Italy is an alphanumeric code of 16 characters. The card serves to identify unambiguously individuals residing in Italy irrespective of residency status. Designed by and for the Italian tax office, it is now used for several other purposes, e.g. uniquely identifying individuals in the health system, or natural persons who act as parties in private contracts.

The number is issued by the Italian tax office. Each person in the past was handed a plastic card with a magnetic strip, bearing the tax code as well as the surname, given name(s), sex, place and province of birth (or country of birth if foreign), date of birth and date of issue. Today, the tax or fiscal code card has been replaced by a combined Italian health insurance card for qualifying residents which shows an expiration date."


----------



## Suspecting2014

Nucking Futs said:


> Lets all bear in mind that he just took time off for this very thing and nothing happened. I don't think repeatedly taking time off from work on the chance that something might happen that day is sustainable. He's got surveillance in place, it's time to let it work.


The point is not take time off work, the point is to let her know he will be out town for the whole day so she and OM can make a move and Francesco caugth them.


----------



## G.J.

Tobyboy said:


> Francesco
> Can you give us more details about the lunch break when they sat on the bench alone together?
> What were their demeanor? Were they serious,happy, or sad...etc.
> 
> Who was doing most of the talking?
> 
> What was the look on both their faces when OM touch her face and held her hand?
> 
> Your friend knows. Tell him to be honest and not hold back with what he witnessed!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Better still he's a policeman or some thing like I believe 

Ask him to do a report of the encounter so you can post it

We will see a lot of detail


----------



## italianjob

convert said:


> Italianjob, is it lunch time there yet?


It's ten past five in the afternoon, more or less


----------



## Q tip

I wonder about the laws there. Could he place a VAR pen in her bag. The conversations they have are important.

Also, where is OMs office....??? Does he leave after lunch or go in with her?

Francesco, have you read the PUA posting a ways back. Shows a strategy POS players take to nail women. Once clear of this mess, she needs to understand the strategy. She might be just a really really nice person, who can get into trouble with these types of players. She needs to know about this.

I'll repeat it here. From another poster who was a player. A married woman with a kid or two wants to be *desired*, needs attention, be listened to. Really be heard, wants/needs compliments showing her *that she still has it!!!!!*.

The player supplies these emotional needs and bang! She might not even believe him, it's all fantasy anyway. It fits her mental picture that's all. Then it's like a drug. The emotions get the best of her. She's addicted as he isolates, instigates and escalates her to levels she seems to not be able or want to walk away from.

Found by another poster for folks to read..

Findingmyway was a player, I don't know if he comes on here much now.
***********************************************
*
My perspective- as a serial cheat. Before I start, I'm no GQ model look alike and I'm not wealthy.

For me, it was always about extra sex. The thrill of the chase and ego boost was a plus, but I just wanted more sex than my wife did. I always loved my wife and certainly never ever wanted to leave her or lose her. Especially not over someone else's wayward wife.

I had a simple method. I used it because it worked. I targeted married women. I figured they were safer for several important reasons.
1- Less likely to be sleeping around with random guys (STDs).
2- Less likely to pull the crazy girlfriend BS and call my wife.
3- In case of an unwanted pregnancy, I had a built in schmuck to pay the tab and would have claimed to have had a vasectomy.

The most important part of being a player is to hide it. I started with shy looks making certain I'd get caught and then doing my best to look embarrassed. If she started to come around more or dress sexier then I'd try a safe compliment. If she called me on my BS (yes, it happened) I simply acted highly offended. After all, I'm a married family man. That usually got me an apology. A few really smart ones just avoided me altogether.

If she accepted the compliment, I knew I had a chance. I never ever wasted time with someone that I didn't want to bed. If the compliment was successful, I simply followed with more as time permitted and just let things develop. Who knew where it would go? When she would speak with me about her frustrations with her husband (they always complained about their husband) I used that to my advantage. If they complained that he didn't do enough with the kids, I was dad of the year. If he didn't help out around the house, I did everything at home so my wife didn't have to. Yes, it was complete BS, but so what. My job was to make them feel special, pretty and needed and to paint the fantasy. After all, my goal was not conversation or friendship. I wanted to score.

Once things progressed and I had to keep it intense unless it was simply a once and done kind of thing. I would do that by pushing her boundaries for sex. Anal, public hook-up whatever. Keep in mind, I'm in it for the sex so I tried for everything I liked and heard more than once statements like... I never even let my husband do that. That was usually with anal, but sometimes public hook-ups also.

I certainly didn't want to be paying for hotel rooms out my pocket. If she wanted to pay, that was fine. Otherwise, we could hook-up anywhere, it didn't matter to me.

I always advised them to keep the secret between us, because it was so special. Actually, I didn't want to get busted. If they got busted, and some did. That was their tough crap to deal with. I certainly never vowed to love/honor/cherish them.

As I look back, I'm stunned at how easy it was and how many fell for my crap. I had some that would try to pull away and I'd feed them the star crossed lovers BS, you know... kept apart by the cruel hand of fate. That worked like magic to seal the deal. I also used things like I think my wife may have cheated on me. Then I'd work in how I got tested for STDs and it was clear and somehow manage to mention my vasectomy (never had one). Understand? I'm safe, you won't catch anything if you sleep with me and I won't get you pregnant. That was the message.

The one thing that sent me running was the fear of getting caught and sometimes I just wanted a quick bang and wasn't in it for a couple of months of an affair. I'm still also amazed by how many didn't see through my crap either. They didn't have to deal with the day to day stresses that adults face with me (finances, mortgages, car payments, child care, time commitments, etc.). With me, it was just fun and sex. The poor bastard at home didn't have a chance once the play was in motion. It also helped me to see him as a douche-bag when his wife whined about him for whatever reason.

I work with a woman that has lost everything over an affair with me. The house, husband, family, etc. It's difficult to see. She hates me now, but I never vowed anything to her or forced her to do anything. That's her tough crap. Her kids are in therapy, their grades tanked and she's struggling financially and the kids blame her, etc. Honestly, I wish she'd quit so I didn't have to see her every freaking day.


I do know a few like me that I consider even worse. They brag and laugh about getting wayward wives to do things and try to get email or text proof to show off. It's pretty easy, just tell her how much he liked doing X with her last night and let her respond. Then they had proof to brag about and trade notes. I didn't do that. I just wanted the sex and avoided the women they talked about. I liked to find the ones who would seem to be the last to ever do anything like this. Goes back to my 3 reasons.

I never flirted with a married woman unless I wanted in her pants. Plain and simple, you do have to hide it so they don't see it coming, but it's really that basic. Other players use different methods, but we all use what works and modify sometimes if we're not progressing to try a different angle. Not all women are the same, and sometimes deviations are required if she'll let you in her pants.

It was never about love, just sex. I sold the fantasy, yes. But that is all it ever was. A fair trade. They were adults and quite frankly should have known better. Am I a predator, I certainly never thought so and I certainly never thought about what would happen to them when we were done. Yes, all my affairs ended. Most stayed married to their H they *****ed about and screwed around on. Therefore, he must not have been that bad. People just get caught up with unrealistic expectations on life I think. For goodness sake, Prince charming is only charming because he wants a blow job.

Before I close, I'll say this as well. An engaged woman would have worked for me also, but I never found one that would go for me. Also, newly married women are much harder to get. I had the best luck with women who had been married for at least several years, throw a kid or two in the mix and they were usually more susceptible to being chased.

It was a fair trade. Attention and compliments for sex. *


----------



## italianjob

z_man said:


> "The Italian fiscal code card, officially known as Italy's Codice Fiscale, is the tax code card in Italy, similar to a Social Security Number (SSN) card in the United States or the National Insurance Number issued in the United Kingdom. The tax code in Italy is an alphanumeric code of 16 characters. The card serves to identify unambiguously individuals residing in Italy irrespective of residency status. Designed by and for the Italian tax office, it is now used for several other purposes, e.g. uniquely identifying individuals in the health system, or natural persons who act as parties in private contracts.
> 
> The number is issued by the Italian tax office. Each person in the past was handed a plastic card with a magnetic strip, bearing the tax code as well as the surname, given name(s), sex, place and province of birth (or country of birth if foreign), date of birth and date of issue. Today, the tax or fiscal code card has been replaced by a combined Italian health insurance card for qualifying residents which shows an expiration date."


That's exactly what I was thinking about


----------



## italianjob

Q tip said:


> I wonder about the laws there. Could he place a VAR pen in her bag. The conversations they have are important.
> 
> Francesco, have you read the PUA posting a ways back. Shows a strategy POS players take to nail women.


As far as I know, you can record and use a conversation if you are present and seen by the partecipants. you can't use a recording if you are not there when the conversation takes place (you can't let somebody else listen, transcript or read a transcript of the conversation you obtained illegally).

In Francesco's wife case, anyway, I think he said she works in a government office, so she could get in trouble if someone found a VAR in her purse.


----------



## ArmyofJuan

Francesco said:


> then we gave each other a hug and tomorrow we would meet up for our *soccer *night


I thought you guys called it football lol.


----------



## italianjob

ArmyofJuan said:


> I thought you guys called it football lol.


used to. Videogaming changed that 

And anyway in Italy it's "calcio"


----------



## Francesco

just logged in and i see many questions, try but please understand that i am at work, so i cant be fast enough on responding... try to give some answers


----------



## Q tip

My real
Concern is if OM is playing her and starting to escalate with touches and hand holding, she can be rescued before it gets worse. 

It would be heart breaking if true. Like watching a baby crawling towards a cliff. You'll regret not stopping her at the point you can keep your marriage. All that's being done is the cliff is approaching as he works his charms. They are not planning a surprise birthday party for you. 

If it's already on, evidence will be there already. Behavior, less or no sex as she becomes loyal to the OM. So far it seems not to be the case.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Francesco

Kevinb said:


> I'm kinda wondering if this is all for real...does anyone else get that feeling or is it just me?



I'll skip this one


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> It does sound like some kind of inappropriate physical contact has happened, by their behavior during the outdoor lunch. How far it might have gone, however, we have no way to tell, at the moment.
> 
> Anyway at this moment I would avoid any kind of confrontation
> - if it's already gone physical (in the worst sense)
> it wouldn't change much now
> - if it's about to go physical, surveillance will intervene.
> - if it's not physical in a serious way yet, surveillance will give Francesco elements for his talk to her (and maybe to him, who knows) about respecting boundaries.
> 
> Francesco needs more elements. A series of consecutive days of surveillance will let him see if there is a pattern in their behavior at lunch hour and maybe help him draw some conclusion.



thats what my intentions are. Gathering more proofs and staying calm


----------



## Francesco

OlderAndWiser said:


> I got an still have some doubts. Got them with Post #179.
> 
> OP has his "social security number"........in Italy?:scratchhead:



codice fiscale. now it's called tessera sanitaria.
In italy in this moment you are not a human, you are a tax number


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> I've never heard of a place where you can go and take a polygraph here in Italy.
> Maybe Francesco knowing some policeman can get one, but I assure you that if you go to a police station here in Italy and ask to make your wife take a polygraph they're going to laugh you out of the office.
> I think that's off the table around here.


me nether. I think its something that only the police force has or uses... not for civil matters. Then again with money all is possible but that is not in our mentality as something to do


----------



## Francesco

Tobyboy said:


> Francesco
> Can you give us more details about the lunch break when they sat on the bench alone together?
> What were their demeanor? Were they serious,happy, or sad...etc.
> 
> Who was doing most of the talking?
> 
> What was the look on both their faces when OM touch her face and held her hand?
> 
> Your friend knows. Tell him to be honest and not hold back with what he witnessed!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 What my brother/friend told me was that OM was the one who did most of the talking, he seemed like he was trying to reassure her, some sort of consolation. The only physical contact was the cheek and the hand of my wife. They did not have a behavior as lovers, but something more like accomplices.


----------



## Francesco

z_man said:


> "The Italian fiscal code card, officially known as Italy's Codice Fiscale, is the tax code card in Italy, similar to a Social Security Number (SSN) card in the United States or the National Insurance Number issued in the United Kingdom. The tax code in Italy is an alphanumeric code of 16 characters. The card serves to identify unambiguously individuals residing in Italy irrespective of residency status. Designed by and for the Italian tax office, it is now used for several other purposes, e.g. uniquely identifying individuals in the health system, or natural persons who act as parties in private contracts.
> 
> The number is issued by the Italian tax office. Each person in the past was handed a plastic card with a magnetic strip, bearing the tax code as well as the surname, given name(s), sex, place and province of birth (or country of birth if foreign), date of birth and date of issue. Today, the tax or fiscal code card has been replaced by a combined Italian health insurance card for qualifying residents which shows an expiration date."



thank you! you wrote it down better!


----------



## convert

Francesco said:


> thats what my intentions are. Gathering more proofs and staying calm


if and a big if ---your friend catches them start to "get it on" in the car or going into hotel, do you and him have an agreement for him to stop them? by confronting and intervening ?

I know this still might be a deal breaker to you.
but if it is their first time maybe not? if it is stopped? 

and what if the OM would take a swing at your friend?
I would imagine he would get arrested even if your friend is off duty. (that would be nice to see)

never a good idea to take a swing at a cop even if off duty.


----------



## Francesco

G.J. said:


> Better still he's a policeman or some thing like I believe
> 
> Ask him to do a report of the encounter so you can post it
> 
> We will see a lot of detail



he is from the catturandi. They are the ones that find the bad guys in undercover.... they dont work with a uniform. 
Cant ask him do to also a report, wel lets say I WONT ask him that also.


----------



## Chaparral

He took a picture of them. Were they sitting close, across the table?

I don't like the part where the other two women left them alone together. 

I have no doubt about his intentions. I would not even think of holding hands with another woman unless it was short and someplace like a funeral. And touching a married woman's cheek only means one thing. I wish we could have seen her body language. Her reaction could have been neutral. If she looked encouraging your friend should have noticed.


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> I wonder about the laws there. Could he place a VAR pen in her bag. The conversations they have are important.
> 
> Also, where is OMs office....??? Does he leave after lunch or go in with her?
> 
> Francesco, have you read the PUA posting a ways back. Shows a strategy POS players take to nail women. Once clear of this mess, she needs to understand the strategy. She might be just a really really nice person, who can get into trouble with these types of players. She needs to know about this.
> 
> I'll repeat it here. From another poster who was a player. A married woman with a kid or two wants to be *desired*, needs attention, be listened to. Really be heard, wants/needs compliments showing her *that she still has it!!!!!*.
> 
> The player supplies these emotional needs and bang! She might not even believe him, it's all fantasy anyway. It fits her mental picture that's all. Then it's like a drug. The emotions get the best of her. She's addicted as he isolates, instigates and escalates her to levels she seems to not be able or want to walk away from.
> 
> Found by another poster for folks to read..
> 
> Findingmyway was a player, I don't know if he comes on here much now.
> ***********************************************
> *
> My perspective- as a serial cheat. Before I start, I'm no GQ model look alike and I'm not wealthy.
> 
> For me, it was always about extra sex. The thrill of the chase and ego boost was a plus, but I just wanted more sex than my wife did. I always loved my wife and certainly never ever wanted to leave her or lose her. Especially not over someone else's wayward wife.
> 
> I had a simple method. I used it because it worked. I targeted married women. I figured they were safer for several important reasons.
> 1- Less likely to be sleeping around with random guys (STDs).
> 2- Less likely to pull the crazy girlfriend BS and call my wife.
> 3- In case of an unwanted pregnancy, I had a built in schmuck to pay the tab and would have claimed to have had a vasectomy.
> 
> The most important part of being a player is to hide it. I started with shy looks making certain I'd get caught and then doing my best to look embarrassed. If she started to come around more or dress sexier then I'd try a safe compliment. If she called me on my BS (yes, it happened) I simply acted highly offended. After all, I'm a married family man. That usually got me an apology. A few really smart ones just avoided me altogether.
> 
> If she accepted the compliment, I knew I had a chance. I never ever wasted time with someone that I didn't want to bed. If the compliment was successful, I simply followed with more as time permitted and just let things develop. Who knew where it would go? When she would speak with me about her frustrations with her husband (they always complained about their husband) I used that to my advantage. If they complained that he didn't do enough with the kids, I was dad of the year. If he didn't help out around the house, I did everything at home so my wife didn't have to. Yes, it was complete BS, but so what. My job was to make them feel special, pretty and needed and to paint the fantasy. After all, my goal was not conversation or friendship. I wanted to score.
> 
> Once things progressed and I had to keep it intense unless it was simply a once and done kind of thing. I would do that by pushing her boundaries for sex. Anal, public hook-up whatever. Keep in mind, I'm in it for the sex so I tried for everything I liked and heard more than once statements like... I never even let my husband do that. That was usually with anal, but sometimes public hook-ups also.
> 
> I certainly didn't want to be paying for hotel rooms out my pocket. If she wanted to pay, that was fine. Otherwise, we could hook-up anywhere, it didn't matter to me.
> 
> I always advised them to keep the secret between us, because it was so special. Actually, I didn't want to get busted. If they got busted, and some did. That was their tough crap to deal with. I certainly never vowed to love/honor/cherish them.
> 
> As I look back, I'm stunned at how easy it was and how many fell for my crap. I had some that would try to pull away and I'd feed them the star crossed lovers BS, you know... kept apart by the cruel hand of fate. That worked like magic to seal the deal. I also used things like I think my wife may have cheated on me. Then I'd work in how I got tested for STDs and it was clear and somehow manage to mention my vasectomy (never had one). Understand? I'm safe, you won't catch anything if you sleep with me and I won't get you pregnant. That was the message.
> 
> The one thing that sent me running was the fear of getting caught and sometimes I just wanted a quick bang and wasn't in it for a couple of months of an affair. I'm still also amazed by how many didn't see through my crap either. They didn't have to deal with the day to day stresses that adults face with me (finances, mortgages, car payments, child care, time commitments, etc.). With me, it was just fun and sex. The poor bastard at home didn't have a chance once the play was in motion. It also helped me to see him as a douche-bag when his wife whined about him for whatever reason.
> 
> I work with a woman that has lost everything over an affair with me. The house, husband, family, etc. It's difficult to see. She hates me now, but I never vowed anything to her or forced her to do anything. That's her tough crap. Her kids are in therapy, their grades tanked and she's struggling financially and the kids blame her, etc. Honestly, I wish she'd quit so I didn't have to see her every freaking day.
> 
> 
> I do know a few like me that I consider even worse. They brag and laugh about getting wayward wives to do things and try to get email or text proof to show off. It's pretty easy, just tell her how much he liked doing X with her last night and let her respond. Then they had proof to brag about and trade notes. I didn't do that. I just wanted the sex and avoided the women they talked about. I liked to find the ones who would seem to be the last to ever do anything like this. Goes back to my 3 reasons.
> 
> I never flirted with a married woman unless I wanted in her pants. Plain and simple, you do have to hide it so they don't see it coming, but it's really that basic. Other players use different methods, but we all use what works and modify sometimes if we're not progressing to try a different angle. Not all women are the same, and sometimes deviations are required if she'll let you in her pants.
> 
> It was never about love, just sex. I sold the fantasy, yes. But that is all it ever was. A fair trade. They were adults and quite frankly should have known better. Am I a predator, I certainly never thought so and I certainly never thought about what would happen to them when we were done. Yes, all my affairs ended. Most stayed married to their H they *****ed about and screwed around on. Therefore, he must not have been that bad. People just get caught up with unrealistic expectations on life I think. For goodness sake, Prince charming is only charming because he wants a blow job.
> 
> Before I close, I'll say this as well. An engaged woman would have worked for me also, but I never found one that would go for me. Also, newly married women are much harder to get. I had the best luck with women who had been married for at least several years, throw a kid or two in the mix and they were usually more susceptible to being chased.
> 
> It was a fair trade. Attention and compliments for sex. *



a var is out of the question, it will be scanned before she gets in at work.

Yes, i have read that post a few pages back, but it pissed me off to much. but i did take note of it


----------



## Chaparral

Francesco said:


> What my brother/friend told me was that OM was the one who did most of the talking, he seemed like he was trying to reassure her, some sort of consolation. The only physical contact was the cheek and the hand of my wife. They did not have a behavior as lovers, but something more like accomplices.


Was this after your brother in law called her about her parents?


----------



## italianjob

Francesco said:


> What my brother/friend told me was that OM was the one who did most of the talking, he seemed like he was trying to reassure her, some sort of consolation. The only physical contact was the cheek and the hand of my wife. They did not have a behavior as lovers, but something more like accomplices.


Well, put that way could make it sound like it could be some work related trouble. did she look worried?


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> As far as I know, you can record and use a conversation if you are present and seen by the partecipants. you can't use a recording if you are not there when the conversation takes place (you can't let somebody else listen, transcript or read a transcript of the conversation you obtained illegally).
> 
> In Francesco's wife case, anyway, I think he said she works in a government office, so she could get in trouble if someone found a VAR in her purse.


i will ask my friend about this, but what i know is that you cant tape nobody for legal law suits unless it is given an ok by a judge.


----------



## Tobyboy

Francesco said:


> What my brother/friend told me was that OM was the one who did most of the talking, he seemed like he was trying to reassure her, some sort of consolation. The only physical contact was the cheek and the hand of my wife. They did not have a behavior as lovers, but something more like accomplices.


Could your wife have done something, concerning her work, that she did not approve of and the OM was reassuring her?
How much power does your wife have at work?
What I mean is, if she was asked to overlook something, could someone benefit from it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## italianjob

Francesco said:


> i will ask my friend about this, but what i know is that you cant tape nobody for legal law suits unless it is given an ok by a judge.


I think there's a Cassazione sentence about this. Police forces need to have that ok by a judge.


----------



## Chaparral

Francesco said:


> i will ask my friend about this, but what i know is that you cant tape nobody for legal law suits unless it is given an ok by a judge.


It sounds like your laws are much like us regarding the var. However, its a great tool to find out what's going on even if it can't be used in court. Most places here you can record a conversation you are a party to and use it in court. If you aren't a party to it, you can't use it in court.


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> Well, put that way could make it sound like it could be some work related trouble. did she look worried?


yes, worried and apprehensive...


----------



## Francesco

Tobyboy said:


> Could your wife have done something, concerning her work, that she did not approve of and the OM was reassuring her?
> How much power does your wife have at work?
> What I mean is, if she was asked to overlook something, could someone benefit from it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



didn't think about this. Could be! She is only what we call here paper pass, after her controls it's the executive that takes the responsibilities


----------



## italianjob

Francesco said:


> yes, worried and apprehensive...


Then something might have been troubling her at work. Contact of that kind would be inappropriate anyway, and the OM may be trying to profit from the situation anyway, but it could be that she overlooked his behavior because of her worry.

I guess you really need more surveillance reports.


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> I think there's a Cassazione sentence about this. Police forces need to have that ok by a judge.


right! and i think that only they can have that ok not civilians, nor 
security guard's as me.


----------



## G.J.

Francesco said:


> yes, worried and apprehensive...


Anther angle is that the OMW may have sensed some thing as women are very intuitive and has confronted her 
husband and he has told Francesco's wife

So Francesco's wife is worried he may find out
which ties in with conversation in bed at the weekend about if he left her


----------



## Francesco

Chaparral said:


> Was this after your brother in law called her about her parents?


it was the same day, but since she called me in the afternoon at work i think that my BIL called her after the lunch


----------



## Francesco

G.J. said:


> Anther angle is that the OMW may have sensed some thing as women are very intuitive and has confronted her
> husband and he has told Francesco's wife
> 
> So Francesco's wife is worried he may find out


ouch..


----------



## Tobyboy

Francesco said:


> They started walking and where *laughing and kidding the whole time*. When he saw that they passed the car of the OM without getting in, my friend parked his bike and followed them from distance.
> 15 minutes after they stopped at at fast food nearby, bought a sandwich and sat on a bench. Once they finished they started to talk, the OM seemed concerned with something and* what my friend got out off of it was a very confident body language from both*. He even passed his hand on her cheek in one occasion and held her hand for a few seconds in another occasion. She didn't mind at all.
> After that they started to walk back to the building 15 minutes before the break was over and then went inside.
> *He said that there was many sign's of confidence between them. He said that he didn't like the way she behaved, that there's something more going on*. He took some pics of them, unfortunately not the one where he touched her, but good enough to get me pissed.


This is coming from a trained eye! Believe him. Trust he will find out the truth.


----------



## Q tip

Chaparral said:


> Was this after your brother in law called her about her parents?


Wow, good catch. Cancelled plans? OMG. Maybe a short stop on the way out to parents that she can get away with...


----------



## G.J.

Tobyboy said:


> This is coming from a trained eye! Believe him. Trust he will find out the truth.


That's why I would love to see a full report as he would put all details down


----------



## G.J.

Q tip said:


> Wow, good catch. Cancelled plans? OMG.


cancelled plans ?

take me through thoughts on that didn't get it Q Tip


----------



## italianjob

This might be something you can try to find out from her, without hurting the current investigation. One of these nights you might try to Steee the conversation toward work matters, maybe she will tell you if there is some trouble, or you might notice if there are problems by her body language, and it shouldn't make her nervous about her relationship with the OM.


----------



## Francesco

ok, time to go. in less then 2 hours i will meet up with my friend for the game also, but since he didn't call me i guess that theirs nothing to report today at lunch.
check back as soon as possible


----------



## Q tip

G.J. said:


> That's why I would love to see a full report as he would put all details down


They can discuss, but this may be an unsanctioned use of their time. Don't want to get in trouble...


----------



## Q tip

G.J. said:


> cancelled plans ?
> 
> take me through thoughts on that didn't get it Q Tip


Just a though. Perhaps the following week they made plans to meet part way to parents home. Out of sight and alone. Those plans were cancelled by the change in dates. He could not make it..

I'd confirm the Timing of the calls with phone records/detailed phone bills with BIL call. Compare them to their lunch date. Worst case, he played the star crossed lovers never meeting crap.

This is worst case. Francesco. Leave room in your heart there is innocence here. Don't hurt your own heart and marriage with worst case. 

If anyone touches my wife like that, there would be all hell to pay. W and OM and his wife immediately. If they go underground, there will be signs anyway. Her behavior if innocent would be different that of a guilty sneaky liar. Worst thing is to see them white faced and do nothing. That is a beta response. Read MMSLP. It will help balance you as a man and family leader.

You are doing something, only she does not know. This means you already suspect something worse.


----------



## Tobyboy

italianjob said:


> This might be something you can try to find out from her, without hurting the current investigation. One of these nights you might try to Steee the conversation toward work matters, maybe she will tell you if there is some trouble, or you might notice if there are problems by her body language, and it shouldn't make her nervous about her relationship with the OM.


My wife EA was conducted strictly over phone from her work. Everyday I would hear complaints about her job(overworked, underpay,lazy coworkers)....turns out it was her being on the phone all freaking day with the other guy that got her behind on her duties!!!


----------



## Chaparral

Q tip said:


> Just a though. Perhaps the following week they made plans to meet part way to parents home. Out of sight and alone. Those plans were cancelled by the change in dates. He could not make it..


She takes her daughter . But right after work or leave early on a Friday. Plus she wasn't supposed to go that weekend.


----------



## Q tip

Chaparral said:


> She takes her daughter . But right after work or leave early on a Friday. Plus she wasn't supposed to go that weekend.


Yep. Good point then or he would take her that time... Sudden small change. -- So where was she to be that weekend then...? They had to cancel? Phone records please!


----------



## G.J.

Did Francesco say anything about football nights (tonight) as what time eldest D goes bed and is she alone done stairs for a while?
As burner phone may be in house just for the one day


----------



## Q tip

G.J. said:


> Did Francesco say anything about football nights (tonight) as what time eldest D goes bed and is she alone done stairs for a while?
> As burner phone may be in house just for the one day


Thought he mentioned she comes along to football night. Does she always attend?


----------



## Tobyboy

It's hard to give advise in cases like this. Where there's so many red flags but nothing concrete. Some will disagree with this/others will agree......but I believe that now is not the time to go soft in the snooping/investigating. In fact, I recommend doubling the efforts!!!! Everything needs to check out good!! 
1. Emails(work email is the preferred form of communication in work affairs)
2.Texts
3. Text apps
4. Social media(check everyone involved facebook page including coworkers, OM, OMs wife) check for common interests between all players.
5. Phone calls(every number is suspect until verified)
6. Friends( I'm willing to bet that Francesco wife does not have real close female friends that are also coworkers) 
7. THE GUT....trust it!!!

Not many are capable, but I'm one that can go all Colombo and still function as nothing is wrong......and look it also!!!


----------



## convert

convert said:


> if and a big if ---your friend catches them start to "get it on" in the car or going into hotel, do you and him have an agreement for him to stop them? by confronting and intervening ?
> 
> I know this still might be a deal breaker to you.
> but if it is their first time maybe not? if it is stopped?
> 
> and what if the OM would take a swing at your friend?
> I would imagine he would get arrested even if your friend is off duty. (that would be nice to see)
> 
> never a good idea to take a swing at a cop even if off duty.


I wanted to bring my post to the end of the thread because I think it is important, especially if it is not a deal breaker for her not to have sexual contact if it can be stopped before hand. even if the intention was there.


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> Just a though. Perhaps the following week they made plans to meet part way to parents home. Out of sight and alone. Those plans were cancelled by the change in dates. He could not make it..
> 
> I'd confirm the Timing of the calls with phone records/detailed phone bills with BIL call. Compare them to their lunch date. Worst case, he played the star crossed lovers never meeting crap.
> 
> This is worst case. Francesco. Leave room in your heart there is innocence here. Don't hurt your own heart and marriage with worst case.
> 
> If anyone touches my wife like that, there would be all hell to pay. W and OM and his wife immediately. If they go underground, there will be signs anyway. Her behavior if innocent would be different that of a guilty sneaky liar. Worst thing is to see them white faced and do nothing. That is a beta response. Read MMSLP. It will help balance you as a man and family leader.
> 
> You are doing something, only she does not know. This means you already suspect something worse.



Busy day at work today, just got 5 minutes for an update.

I need to clarify the weekend thing, on every weekend we go out of our city to go visit our parents that live in 2 different towns. One weekend at my parents and one weekend at hers. The weekend that we go to her parents, she takes off on Friday afternoons with my S7. She gets ther 24 hours before me because she helps out her brother with her mom (cleans the house better, washes her moms hear, etc.) This way her brother has time to do whatever he needs that during the week is impossible since he is the one that takes care of her parents.

I dought highly any type of meeting with OM, maybe phone calls, but no way they would have a physical meeting.


----------



## Francesco

convert said:


> I wanted to bring my post to the end of the thread because I think it is important, especially if it is not a deal breaker for her not to have sexual contact if it can be stopped before hand. even if the intention was there.


he told me that he will only gather proofs if they would be acting like lovers with only pics and videos, that alone will make me confront her and blow up the situation without any other proofs. Probably the right next day putting in action our original plan. 
But if he ever saw them starting sex, then he would wait just the time for them to get heated and bust them while recording a video. He will not assault him, just film them and then interrupting what they are doing. afterwords before coming to me he would go to OMW and inform her, and then to me.


----------



## Francesco

Yesterday went as I thought, OM wasn't around at all and my wife just eat a brios of ice cream with a female coworker. Then back to work.
He told me this before the game, so he wouldn't have an excuse for winning against me, which by the way didn't happen! lol!


----------



## Chaparral

Three straight days with no lunch date after you talked this weekend. I have no doubt she figured out you thought her and the on were up to something when you answered her question about leaving her. The more I think about it, I think she had already put it together by last Friday and asked the question on purpose to confirm her suspicions. That would explain their tender lunch meeting and not having any lunches this week.

I think her woman's intuition told her something was wrong and she figured out there was trouble over you seeing her in the car alone with the other man.

I hope this is a good thing.


----------



## Francesco

Chaparral said:


> Three straight days with no lunch date after you talked this weekend. I have no doubt she figured out you thought her and the on were up to something when you answered her question about leaving her. The more I think about it, I think she had already put it together by last Friday and asked the question on purpose to confirm her suspicions. That would explain their tender lunch meeting and not having any lunches this week.
> 
> I think her woman's intuition told her something was wrong and she figured out there was trouble over you seeing her in the car alone with the other man.
> 
> I hope this is a good thing.



yes, my only problem is figuring out if went physical or not...


----------



## Decorum

Are you checking credit card statements?

Can he var her car? Or does that get screened?

(Always secure in car with double Velcro)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Francesco said:


> yes, my only problem is figuring out if went physical or not...


How !long is your friend willing to watch?

I would confront her next week if you still have nothing. I would describe her hand holding and cheek caressing. I would tell her rumours are flying around about them, repeat how they acted when you caught them in the car and tell her you know more. Then tell her to explain herself. With out var's, phone records and find my phone, there is little more you can do.

I think you should turn on find my phone immediately though.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Decorum said:


> Are you checking credit card statements?
> 
> Can he var her car? Or does that get screened?
> 
> (Always secure in car with double Velcro)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No car to var, she walks to work.

ETA: Francesco, see if your friend can get OM's phone numbers, cell and home including work cell if he has a separate one. Then go over your phone bills and see if his numbers show up on her phone.


----------



## Q tip

Assuming something's up... If she stopped temporarily because of her intuition, then they still have confidence to meet again. Lunch, or she'll need to get away during evenings or weekend.

So, you've got some evidence of potential goings on. But never spoke of the times you yourself spotted her. You could at least casually bring up those moments now. Get her to explain (or lie). 

Then speak of boundaries and players and how they operate. All by coincidence. Her reaction will tell you things. So will her body language. 

Or just stay with you plans.

However, she may interpret your not asking WTF as weakness and a beta response lowering her respect for you. Read up on Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 by Athol Kat if you can get a copy.

If she says he's just a friend. It's never the case. There's a real good book called Not Just Friends by Glass. You and her should read it.


----------



## Q tip

Chaparral said:


> Three straight days with no lunch date after you talked this weekend. I have no doubt she figured out you thought her and the on were up to something when you answered her question about leaving her. The more I think about it, I think she had already put it together by last Friday and asked the question on purpose to confirm her suspicions. That would explain their tender lunch meeting and not having any lunches this week.
> 
> I think her woman's intuition told her something was wrong and she figured out there was trouble over you seeing her in the car alone with the other man.
> 
> I hope this is a good thing.


I truly wonder that if she feels guilty, what is she guilty of...


----------



## italianjob

I think the ideal thing to do would be keeping up surveillance and avoid confrontation until they have another "car date", if you can see at least once where they do actually go in one of those episodes you will be able to do a better assessment of their relationship.

Also, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that she is aware of being under scrutiny and that's why they're not having lunch dates. It may be, but it may also simply be due to the fact that the OM has been busy with work related matters. 

To tell for sure you should have had at least a couple of days when they both get out of the office and also go back in for the afternoon schedule AND they don't go to lunch together. That hasn't happened yet, you had two days in which the OM just wasn't around, and one day in which each one of them went with a different group, but OM's group didn't go back to the office.

About confrontation: 
- if this situation is "on the edge" of becoming physical an early confrontation might prevent your wife from doing something she may regret for the rest of her life.
- if this has already gone physical, a confrontation before having some kind of proof might prevent you from finding out the truth, maybe forever.

So it's a delicate balance, and only you can decide what is your priority, taking into consideration, obviouslly, the fact that, I guess, your friend won't be able to watch her forever.


----------



## italianjob

italianjob said:


> Also, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that she is aware of being under scrutiny and that's why they're not having lunch dates. It may be, but it may also simply be due to the fact that the OM has been busy with work related matters.



Thinking more about this, It would be possible that the "consolation" witnessed last Friday was about the OM being unavailable for all or most of this week...

It would mean that things are quite advanced...


----------



## Chaparral

Nucking Futs said:


> No car to var, she walks to work.
> 
> ETA: Francesco, see if your friend can get OM's phone numbers, cell and home including work cell if he has a separate one. Then go over your phone bills and see if his numbers show up on her phone.


A var in the house may pick up something with the om or a close friend she confides in.


----------



## G.J.

So was she at home last night or did she go to watch Francesca as someone said, which I don't think as it would mean taking both daughters ?

what time does eldest go bed and does mum use computer on these nights ?

Burner phone may have been brought home and used then took back to work today


----------



## brendanoco

italianjob said:


> Thinking more about this, It would be possible that the "consolation" witnessed last Friday was about the OM being unavailable for all or most of this week...
> 
> It would mean that things are quite advanced...


but she still sees him in the office everyday its not like he has disappeared for the week


----------



## italianjob

brendanoco said:


> but she still sees him in the office everyday its not like he has disappeared for the week


yeah, but they're not getting alone time... It's just to say that there are many possibilities, so Francesco needs more evidence to decide what move to make IMO.


----------



## drifting on

Francesco

Your story is so hauntingly similar to mine, I sat last night thinking through every detail of my situation. I asked my WW last night what happened when she ended the affair. WW explained the guilt was too much for her to handle. She didn't become distant to me in fact she became the opposite. I now remember now how loving she was during those months after she ended the affair. OM on the other hand became distant to my WW. OM wanted the affair to continue and the day she ended it he tried to change her mind. OM held WW hand, put his arm around her, any kind of affection to change WW mind. I asked my WW if she attempted to stop his contact or pull her hand away, WW said no. I asked if WW was crying at all during this and WW said no. WW told me the OM was very cool to her for the next couple of weeks. 

Francesco I really feel for you here, you are in a bad position any path you take. I can only tell you in my case I would do things differently. In your case I can only tell you what I would do, not what you should do. I would place all trust in your police friend. The facial touches and hand holding erode her trust. I would confront the OM at this point, IF you don't want it to go further. I didn't confront and now I have a WW. If you continue surveillance and they do start having lunches and it goes further, what then? I understand letting WS hang themselves but that's usually AFTER an affair is confirmed. You may have the opportunity to stop it from going PA (even though I think it is a PA) here and now. You don't know how much time they are together alone at work. If he has a private office. If they work alone on papers. In my opinion too many unknowns are working against you. I hope your outcome is more desirable then mine ended. Best of luck to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Yeswecan

As drift on suggests...let you friend keep watch.


----------



## G.J.

drifting on said:


> Francesco
> 
> Your story is so hauntingly similar to mine, I sat last night thinking through every detail of my situation. I asked my WW last night what happened when she ended the affair. WW explained the guilt was too much for her to handle. She didn't become distant to me in fact she became the opposite. I now remember now how loving she was during those months after she ended the affair. OM on the other hand became distant to my WW. OM wanted the affair to continue and the day she ended it he tried to change her mind. OM held WW hand, put his arm around her, any kind of affection to change WW mind. I asked my WW if she attempted to stop his contact or pull her hand away, WW said no. I asked if WW was crying at all during this and WW said no. WW told me the OM was very cool to her for the next couple of weeks.
> 
> Francesco I really feel for you here, you are in a bad position any path you take. I can only tell you in my case I would do things differently. In your case I can only tell you what I would do, not what you should do. I would place all trust in your police friend. The facial touches and hand holding erode her trust. I would confront the OM at this point, IF you don't want it to go further. I didn't confront and now I have a WW. If you continue surveillance and they do start having lunches and it goes further, what then? I understand letting WS hang themselves but that's usually AFTER an affair is confirmed. You may have the opportunity to stop it from going PA (even though I think it is a PA) here and now. You don't know how much time they are together alone at work. If he has a private office. If they work alone on papers. In my opinion too many unknowns are working against you. I hope your outcome is more desirable then mine ended. Best of luck to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Excellent post drifting on and spot on

My concern all the way through along with a lot of others is that if it hasn't gone PA the delay could very well be too 
long and end tragically trying to gather more proof as there's enough to confront and if handled properly get most 
of the information out of her


----------



## turnera

To get you thinking about other stuff...have you ever sat down and written a list of things she's complained about? And if you have that in mind, did you address those things?


----------



## tom67

G.J. said:


> Excellent post drifting on and spot on
> 
> My concern all the way through along with a lot of others is that if it hasn't gone PA the delay could very well be too
> long and end tragically trying to gather more proof as there's enough to confront and if handled properly get most
> of the information out of her


:iagree:
I say go see his wife NOW and compare notes just very matter of fact explain the car situation and if she isn't buying what you are selling say thank you for your time.
Even though she won't tell you she will be the other set of eyes on this.
Time to c0ckbl0ck.


----------



## italianjob

As you can see, we can make up almost as many theories as there are posters on TAM for every bit of evidence. It means that we still don't have a real pattern surfacing, this could be anything from a boundaries matter to a full blown PA.

The peculiarity is that the red flags aren't many but they are huge.

While you wait for surveillance to unfold you might try to focus on small changes in her habits at home, if there are any, sometimes seemingly unimportant detail hide unthinkable developments. You could hide a VAR in a room where she might go to talk on the phone undisturbed (while the kids are busy with homework, maybe, or watching TV while you're still at work), or look around for a possible burner phone.

If you should decide to confront with as little evidence as you have, I think you should do it with a good plan, to avoid making things worse instead than better. If no new evidence comes up I still think that the fake email plan might work wonders (in a variation of that you could send the e mail to her and to YOUR email address, so she'll have to justify things to you and won't think you are the author)


----------



## Yeswecan

turnera said:


> To get you thinking about other stuff...have you ever sat down and written a list of things she's complained about? And if you have that in mind, did you address those things?


Yes, the other side of the coin needs to be addressed. The past weekends conversation should have been gone into a bit deeper. There are some concerns Francesco's W is having.


----------



## Francesco

Decorum said:


> Are you checking credit card statements?
> 
> Can he var her car? Or does that get screened?
> 
> (Always secure in car with double Velcro)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


yes, we have all in joint, she doesn't use the car she goes on feet to work, sometimes with a bike.


----------



## Francesco

Nucking Futs said:


> No car to var, she walks to work.
> 
> ETA: Francesco, see if your friend can get OM's phone numbers, cell and home including work cell if he has a separate one. Then go over your phone bills and see if his numbers show up on her phone.



my friend has his address, home phone number, car, knows that he has 3 kids and a cat!
I have checked her phone calls, i get them all on our telephone bill. I pay for home, and cells (mine and hers) and every 2 months i get the whole phone calls made on each one of them. Nothing specious there..


----------



## G.J.

italianjob said:


> yeah, but they're not getting alone time... It's just to say that there are many possibilities, so Francesco needs more evidence to decide what move to make IMO.


So he doesn't have his own office ?


----------



## G.J.

G.J. said:


> So was she at home last night or did she go to watch Francesca as someone said, which I don't think as it would mean taking both daughters ?
> 
> what time does eldest go bed and does mum use computer on these nights ?
> 
> Burner phone may have been brought home and used then took back to work today


Do we know answers to these ?


----------



## Francesco

G.J. said:


> So was she at home last night or did she go to watch Francesca as someone said, which I don't think as it would mean taking both daughters ?
> 
> what time does eldest go bed and does mum use computer on these nights ?
> 
> Burner phone may have been brought home and used then took back to work today


last night she stayed home because it was a cold night, besides there wasn't any other wives or females to chat with. I have one daughter (D15) and one son (S7) so when she does come usually S7 comes along with her.
Oh... i am Francesco male not Francesca female


----------



## Francesco

drifting on said:


> Francesco
> 
> Your story is so hauntingly similar to mine, I sat last night thinking through every detail of my situation. I asked my WW last night what happened when she ended the affair. WW explained the guilt was too much for her to handle. She didn't become distant to me in fact she became the opposite. I now remember now how loving she was during those months after she ended the affair. OM on the other hand became distant to my WW. OM wanted the affair to continue and the day she ended it he tried to change her mind. OM held WW hand, put his arm around her, any kind of affection to change WW mind. I asked my WW if she attempted to stop his contact or pull her hand away, WW said no. I asked if WW was crying at all during this and WW said no. WW told me the OM was very cool to her for the next couple of weeks.
> 
> Francesco I really feel for you here, you are in a bad position any path you take. I can only tell you in my case I would do things differently. In your case I can only tell you what I would do, not what you should do. I would place all trust in your police friend. The facial touches and hand holding erode her trust. I would confront the OM at this point, IF you don't want it to go further. I didn't confront and now I have a WW. If you continue surveillance and they do start having lunches and it goes further, what then? I understand letting WS hang themselves but that's usually AFTER an affair is confirmed. You may have the opportunity to stop it from going PA (even though I think it is a PA) here and now. You don't know how much time they are together alone at work. If he has a private office. If they work alone on papers. In my opinion too many unknowns are working against you. I hope your outcome is more desirable then mine ended. Best of luck to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


wow.... and you managed to forgive her? 
I would probably forgive her also, with time, but i dont think i will still married.


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> Yesterday went as I thought, OM wasn't around at all and my wife just eat a brios of ice cream with a female coworker. Then back to work.
> He told me this before the game, so he wouldn't have an excuse for winning against me, which by the way didn't happen! lol!


Did your W come along to the game..?


----------



## Tobyboy

Does your wife have a work email and does she have remote access to it?


----------



## Francesco

turnera said:


> To get you thinking about other stuff...have you ever sat down and written a list of things she's complained about? And if you have that in mind, did you address those things?


like i said earlier in my posts, in almost 18 years of merriege we barely fought. I mean the little things that we normally argued about was resolved the same day, however i did in this period write down what i think i might be doing that could not be good, and in the same way i do about her.


----------



## Q tip

brendanoco said:


> but she still sees him in the office everyday its not like he has disappeared for the week


Depends on where his desk is. Was that answered yet?


----------



## Francesco

tom67 said:


> :iagree:
> I say go see his wife NOW and compare notes just very matter of fact explain the car situation and if she isn't buying what you are selling say thank you for your time.
> Even though she won't tell you she will be the other set of eyes on this.
> Time to c0ckbl0ck.


I need more proofs!! , and this can turn in a boomerang bad time if i confront his wife now!


----------



## Q tip

turnera said:


> To get you thinking about other stuff...have you ever sat down and written a list of things she's complained about? And if you have that in mind, did you address those things?


Based on your schedules and weekends, some alone time should be a priority. You two are doing all for everyone else, you might be forgetting about the two of you. 

OM might be planning to provide that if you don't... Worst case. She desires closeness, a place of acceptance and love. It's all emotional for her. Fill those needs. Alone time and romantic time. Get a baby sitter and date that woman of yours. Do it now.


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> As you can see, we can make up almost as many theories as there are posters on TAM for every bit of evidence. It means that we still don't have a real pattern surfacing, this could be anything from a boundaries matter to a full blown PA.
> 
> The peculiarity is that the red flags aren't many but they are huge.
> 
> While you wait for surveillance to unfold you might try to focus on small changes in her habits at home, if there are any, sometimes seemingly unimportant detail hide unthinkable developments. You could hide a VAR in a room where she might go to talk on the phone undisturbed (while the kids are busy with homework, maybe, or watching TV while you're still at work), or look around for a possible burner phone.
> 
> If you should decide to confront with as little evidence as you have, I think you should do it with a good plan, to avoid making things worse instead than better. If no new evidence comes up I still think that the fake email plan might work wonders (in a variation of that you could send the e mail to her and to YOUR email address, so she'll have to justify things to you and won't think you are the author)



now you know why i am here posting on a international web site! Hearing all kinds of suggestions helps me understand many things.


----------



## drifting on

Francesco said:


> wow.... and you managed to forgive her?
> I would probably forgive her also, with time, but i dont think i will still married.


Francesco

Reconciliation is the hardest work I've ever done. No stone left unturned. Yes, I have forgiven her, but she has done some very heavy lifting. I didn't think she would be able to, but she will move mountains. In all honesty I have never seen her more determined with anything than she is towards reconciliation. Twenty seven years together, I love her, she's earned this one chance. I would still feel pain if I divorced her too. I'm sure I'll get lit up for this post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

drifting on said:


> Francesco
> 
> Reconciliation is the hardest work I've ever done. No stone left unturned. Yes, I have forgiven her, but she has done some very heavy lifting. I didn't think she would be able to, but she will move mountains. In all honesty I have never seen her more determined with anything than she is towards reconciliation. Twenty seven years together, I love her, she's earned this one chance. I would still feel pain if I divorced her too. I'm sure I'll get lit up for this post.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your wife your life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Francesco

G.J. said:


> So he doesn't have his own office ?


this i don't know...


----------



## Francesco

G.J. said:


> Do we know answers to these ?


oh, forgot the last 2 questions. My D15 most of the time goes to bed AFTER my wife. My wife before midnight sleeps, we both get up at 06:30, my D15 is up till little after midnight.
I looked around for a burner phone, but not good enough...


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> Did your W come along to the game..?


 no, i posted about that.


----------



## italianjob

G.J. said:


> So he doesn't have his own office ?


That was to say that there might be several different explanations to their behavior, and different reasons why they're not having lunch together this week.

The logistics of the Office where they work are another issue. In Italy there are often prefab offices inside historical buildings, where it would be impossible to have sex without everybody on the floor noticing. I don't know if this is the case, maybe Francesco has been there and could tell.


----------



## Francesco

Tobyboy said:


> Does your wife have a work email and does she have remote access to it?


yes, but i have pw memorized on my lap top, normal office mail nothing else


----------



## Q tip

Is it possible at all she could step out of home for a short period while you are at game night. Or get home later then. Just asking.

Maybe next game night don't tell her you cancel going and watch from somewhere...?

Watch for OM car?


----------



## Francesco

drifting on said:


> Francesco
> 
> Reconciliation is the hardest work I've ever done. No stone left unturned. Yes, I have forgiven her, but she has done some very heavy lifting. I didn't think she would be able to, but she will move mountains. In all honesty I have never seen her more determined with anything than she is towards reconciliation. Twenty seven years together, I love her, she's earned this one chance. I would still feel pain if I divorced her too. I'm sure I'll get lit up for this post.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



ok, maybe i would reconcile also if my wife moved mountains to keep me.... but the problem would be me. If she cheated it will be something that i can't get over no matter what. One thing is a one time mistake and her immediately coming clean, another is a long time affair


----------



## Yeswecan

Francesco said:


> like i said earlier in my posts, in almost 18 years of merriege we barely fought. I mean the little things that we normally argued about was resolved the same day, however i did in this period write down what i think i might be doing that could not be good, and in the same way i do about her.


Yes, 18 years of marriage but...your two are concentrating on aging parents and kids. Routine. Must find time for each other no matter what.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Francesco said:


> yes, but i have pw memorized on my lap top, normal office mail nothing else


Did you check the sent, draft and trash folders?


----------



## Tobyboy

Nucking Futs said:


> Did you check the sent, draft and trash folders?


....and contacts!! Then double check again.


----------



## G.J.

Opps


----------



## G.J.

Francesco said:


> last night she stayed home because it was a cold night, besides there wasn't any other wives or females to chat with. I have one daughter (D15) and one son (S7) so when she does come usually S7 comes along with her.
> Oh... i am Francesco male not Francesca female


So did she use internet/computer

what time did your daughter go bed?

What time do you get home
i see from previous page she was alone when daughter went bed last night

Dam...could have checked her handbag this morning to see if burner phone going back to work with her

Apoligies for the a instead of the o, there is a reason i slipped

Did u ever request FB archive ..very impotant question


.


----------



## MyTurn

Fransesco,
if you dont find new evidence ,then use this plan:

Hide vars in your house where she probably will go to make a call without being heard.

When you two are at home ,tell your friend to give you a call and look surprised .
Once you end the call ask her in a calm voice and looking her straight in the eyes: 

I am going to ask you a question and I need you to answer me truthfully : 
are you cheating on me?
Watch her reaction.

After she answers ,if she comes clean you proceed accordingly,
If she says no, then tell her you need to go to meet someone and leave.

Go for a ride with the car and return after an hour or so.
All you need to know will be recorded by the vars.


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> Is it possible at all she could step out of home for a short period while you are at game night. Or get home later then. Just asking.
> 
> Maybe next game night don't tell her you cancel going and watch from somewhere...?
> 
> Watch for OM car?


she will never leave the kids alone


----------



## Francesco

Nucking Futs said:


> Did you check the sent, draft and trash folders?



yes, trash and sent folders are clean.


----------



## Francesco

MyTurn said:


> Fransesco,
> if you dont find new evidence ,then use this plan:
> 
> Hide vars in your house where she probably will go to make a call without being heard.
> 
> When you two are at home ,tell your friend to give you a call and look surprised .
> Once you end the call ask her in a calm voice and looking her straight in the eyes:
> 
> I am going to ask you a question and I need you to answer me truthfully :
> are you cheating on me?
> Watch her reaction.
> 
> After she answers ,if she comes clean you proceed accordingly,
> If she says no, then tell her you need to go to meet someone and leave.
> 
> Go for a ride with the car and return after an hour or so.
> All you need to know will be recorded by the vars.


i like this


----------



## Squeakr

Assuming that she calls from the house or stays within the house. IF neither of those occurs then you are none the wiser and she will be forced further underground, so take heed.


----------



## Yeswecan

Personally I would allow your friend to continue his surveillance. You have turned over the computer and other electronics but found nothing. It appears it is awfully difficult for your W to conduct anything but being a mom and W when not at work. In as such, I think it is best you work the other side at home with probing questions. Questions that are not pointed but centered on your relationship. You approach it as looking to connect better than what it has been. You tell her that family life(parents and kids) are one aspect of your relationship. Then there is your two intimate relationship. With these talks you will be able to see where you W really is. What she is thinking. You see...last weekend she opened a door with her comment about hoping you will be there. You need to take this statement and run with it to get to bottom of where she is mentally. 

Begin here:
Language Profile | The 5 Love Languages®


----------



## Chaparral

On iPhone, it can be checked to see where it's been. Can you find the Italian translation on Google for the find my phone instructions. You should be able to track the phone on your computer and also see where it's been recently.

Did your friend follow her today?


----------



## Chaparral

Yeswecan said:


> Personally I would allow your friend to continue his surveillance. You have turned over the computer and other electronics but found nothing. It appears it is awfully difficult for your W to conduct anything but being a mom and W when not at work. In as such, I think it is best you work the other side at home with probing questions. Questions that are not pointed but centered on your relationship. You approach it as looking to connect better than what it has been. You tell her that family life(parents and kids) are one aspect of your relationship. Then there is your two intimate relationship. With these talks you will be able to see where you W really is. What she is thinking. You see...last weekend she opened a door with her comment about hoping you will be there. You need to take this statement and run with it to get to bottom of where she is mentally.
> 
> Begin here:
> Language Profile | The 5 Love Languages®


If she just thinks he might be suspicious, asking her questions just might make them cool it for awhile. He needs to know where they are going while putting her mind at rest he suspects nothing now.


----------



## G.J.

Chaparral said:


> If she just thinks he might be suspicious, asking her questions just might make them cool it for awhile. He needs to know where they are going while putting her mind at rest he suspects nothing now.


Yep if he decides on continuing surveillance

But archives on FB may be smoking gun if looked at


----------



## Decorum

Just for your information cheaters often put a false name on their affair partners phone number in their phone contacts.

If they are using burner phones they may be under different names in case they need to call the regular cell phone.

Also if you have his number check to see if she listed it under his name on her phone.

If she works with him its likely she has his number but is it listed honestly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## G.J.

Decorum said:


> Just for your information cheaters often put a false name on their affair partners phone number in their phone contacts.
> 
> If they are using burner phones they may be under different names in case they need to call the regular cell phone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The burner phone would have been brought home last night and taken back to work possibly this morning in her hand bag

As daughter was possibly in bed and wife alone down stairs last night


----------



## Yeswecan

Chaparral said:


> If she just thinks he might be suspicious, asking her questions just might make them cool it for awhile. He needs to know where they are going while putting her mind at rest he suspects nothing now.


I understand this but Francesco hands are tied when it comes to what is going on at her place of employment. Let's face it...Francesco has been provided free surveillance offered from his friend. There are many here that would have loved to have this offer when their marriage was in self-destruct mod. With assurance he will get the skinny on what is happening at lunch Francesco should turn his attention to his W. A two prong attack as it were. So, let his W and OM screw up at work when and if it might happen. Francesco friend will be around for that and report back. In the meantime, let his W possibly drop a dime on herself with the probing questions from Francesco in the guise of looking to improve their marriage and relationship. There should no pointed questions about OM. In fact, play the other card....Francesco could simply state he is feeling disconnected. The conversation to move on from there. And, it really is not a lie. Francesco at this time feels disconnected.


----------



## convert

yes having that friend do the P.I. work is very helpful.

A good P.I. here in U.S. could run you around $350 a day


----------



## Chaparral

He can't GPS her but he should be able to use the gps on her phone. I'm guessing his friend won't be able to track her much longer.

Someone posted the other day you can look at the GPS record on an iPhone, that may be true on her phone which he has access to.

I just think any approach that he suspects her will make his friends efforts useless.

What if she doesn't have lunch with him all week? That could comforting or super guilty looking.

Remember the threads that workplace affairs have gone on forever with no outside communication. Also, the om is a trained investigator, he knows how to hide things and to teach someone else to hide things too. The first four times she was checked on she had lunch with the other man. But after she was seen in the car with him twice in a row, they were only seen together in public places. Maybe she decided being alone with him privately did look bad. Did she talk about this with her coworkers and saw how bad it looked though innocent? I can see a modest woman turning white when she got out of a car with a man and seeing the look on her husbands face. Then it happened a second time and that looked really bad and she saw her husband with what had to be a shocked look. I still lean to this being just a friendship but there are many bad signs. I think the om probably is a player.

Francesco's friend thought something was going on but then said it looked like he was consoling her. She did have disturbing news that day. It would be worthwhile to ask brother in law when he called Friday and maybe ask if he knew of anything bothering his wife since she seems kind of worried but don't tell wife he's asking so she wouldn't worry.

In any event, married men and women should not be having regular lunch dates with each other. And maybe they have decided this too. Just too early to tell.


----------



## Chaparral

One thing that disturbed me from the very beginning was how much time you get to spend with your wife......alone. The golden rule of keeping a marriage healthy is dating and romancing your wife forever. Many threads here show that one spouse or the other doesn't feel loved any more, especially the women. Time after time we see the husband thinking everything is going great but the wife thinks she comes behind the job, the kids, his parents, his friends, his hobbies etc. etc.

You should know the experts say a man and wife should be spending 15 hours a week alone time together. I don't know how that would work but that's what they say. LOL You have to take your wife on dates and romance, romance, romance her, without the kids.

Think of this. I'm guessing but look at the om. He gets to take your wife to lunch very often it looks like. My take is that going to Italian restaurants would be very romantic settings. He constantly has the opportunity to tell her how pretty she is, ask her if anything is wrong, how things are going, and then give her advice, tell her how to handle things, what he would do if she were his wife. There are no family problems they have to worry about together, no bills to worry about, just two people sitting and chatting about anything in the world. He can tell her about his secret investigations, thrilling past investigation stories etc. He has a world of opportunity to get past her defenses. All in a romantic setting with a little wine too? That's dating.

You said one weekend you go to your wife's parents house. The next weekend you take care of your parents. When I read this I thought, when do they take care of each other and go out alone. Kids are wonderful, but like the Bible says, only God comes before one's spouse. 

The reason going to lunch with another man is so wrong is that you cannot compete with that. Before long you are going to have to confront this. There is no way that they do not have an attachment. It doesn't mean they have done anything seriously wrong though but this has to stop. But you have to pick up the slack. You go to soccer and unwind once a week, what does your wife do to unwind. She needs to be unwinding with you, not the other man at lunch.

Please download this if you can from Italy.

http://www.amazon.com/Married-Man-L...62264226&sr=1-1&keywords=married+man+sex+life

Hoping and praying for you and your wife.


----------



## G.J.

Chaparral said:


> One thing that disturbed me from the very beginning was how much time you get to spend with your wife......alone. The golden rule of keeping a marriage healthy is dating and romancing your wife forever. Many threads here show that one spouse or the other doesn't feel loved any more, especially the women. Time after time we see the husband thinking everything is going great but the wife thinks she comes behind the job, the kids, his parents, his friends, his hobbies etc. etc.
> 
> You should know the experts say a man and wife should be spending 15 hours a week alone time together. I don't know how that would work but that's what they say. LOL You have to take your wife on dates and romance, romance, romance her, without the kids.
> 
> Think of this. I'm guessing but look at the om. He gets to take your wife to lunch very often it looks like. My take is that going to Italian restaurants would be very romantic settings. He constantly has the opportunity to tell her how pretty she is, ask her if anything is wrong, how things are going, and then give her advice, tell her how to handle things, what he would do if she were his wife. There are no family problems they have to worry about together, no bills to worry about, just two people sitting and chatting about anything in the world. He can tell her about his secret investigations, thrilling past investigation stories etc. He has a world of opportunity to get past her defenses. All in a romantic setting with a little wine too? That's dating.
> 
> You said one weekend you go to your wife's parents house. The next weekend you take care of your parents. When I read this I thought, when do they take care of each other and go out alone. Kids are wonderful, but like the Bible says, only God comes before one's spouse.
> 
> The reason going to lunch with another man is so wrong is that you cannot compete with that. Before long you are going to have to confront this. There is no way that they do not have an attachment. It doesn't mean they have done anything seriously wrong though but this has to stop. But you have to pick up the slack. You go to soccer and unwind once a week, what does your wife do to unwind. She needs to be unwinding with you, not the other man at lunch.
> 
> Please download this if you can from Italy.
> 
> The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011: Athol Kay: 9781460981733: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> Hoping and praying for you and your wife.


Agree strongly with your post and this is not trying to stereotype but it obviously is, my wife always steered clear of Italian men as 
she and her sisters always say the tendency from Italians they have met over the years are that they are very romantic in courting 
but a few years after marriage will neglect their wife's in a way that doesn't include them as much as before, and in fact treat 
them as their property (her words)

I understand this is a generalization but I'm just quoting from at least 6 Italian women that I know when I've discussed this topic and the consensus seems to be that its just the way the majority are brought up and see the own parents.

When we go to Sicily and parts of mainland Italy (very often) it is still very male orientated and chauvinistic I'm afraid

You may be able to find amongst your own friends some thing similar to say the typical English guy

It is so important to do fun things together and still put your wife first even reminding her you do

The times you see on this board guys say
"I thought we were happy"


----------



## italianjob

G.J. said:


> Agree strongly with your post and this is not trying to stereotype but it obviously is, my wife always steered clear of Italian men as
> she and her sisters always say the tendency from Italians they have met over the years are that they are very romantic in courting
> but a few years after marriage will neglect their wife's in a way that doesn't include them as much as before, and in fact treat
> them as their property (her words)
> 
> I understand this is a generalization but I'm just quoting from at least 6 Italian women that I know when I've discussed this topic and the consensus seems to be that its just the way the majority are brought up and see the own parents.
> 
> When we go to Sicily and parts of mainland Italy (very often) it is still very male orientated and chauvinistic I'm afraid
> 
> You may be able to find amongst your own friends some thing similar to say the typical English guy
> 
> It is so important to do fun things together and still put your wife first even reminding her you do
> 
> The times you see on this board guys say
> "I thought we were happy"


Well, Italy is a very peculiar country. The mentality is very different between the cities and the rural parts of the country, and it is also different between Northern Italy and Southern Italy.

There have also been significant changes in the last few decades, more or less like in many areas of Spain, for example. 

When I was a kid, in the seventies, things were a lot like you described here in northern Italy, and I'm sure that in rural Sicily they are still like that.
Keep in mind that the "Delitto d'Onore" was abolished only in 1981. It meant that if a man killed in "defense of his honorability" (like murdering a cheating wife or her AP) the penalty would have been reduced. 

If you go to Milan, Rome, Verona, Turin, Bologna, Florence or any big city, but also medium sized cities nowadays, man and woman have a mentality that really is no different than the rest of Europe, and is maybe more in touch with times than parts of the US, for example.

If you were to tell somebody here in northern Italy that you want your wife to take a poly to find out if she's having an affair, they would look at you with disbelief in their eyes.
If you find out that your wife is cheating on you snooping on her, you would find a lot of people (men and women alike) who would consider more of a "crime" the snooping than the cheating.

Just to set the record straight, what you said is surely true in rural Sicily, or in many parts of southern Italy, and in some parts of rural northern Italy (in many places in the Alps, for example).
It would also have been true in the sixties or the seventies, in any part of Italy.
But in big cities and many parts of the country things have changed and they are no different than the rest of the western world, and I have a feeling that Francesco lives in a big or at least a medium sized city.


ETA: In other words: men that see women as you described surely exist here, expecially in those areas, but most Italian men these days don't see their wife as a property and don't treat her any worse or any better than men in any other parts of the western civilization. 
And their courtship, I am afraid, would not be more romantic than that of an englishmen or an american, but it's true that the beauty of some of our cities might help


----------



## italianjob

Yeswecan said:


> I understand this but Francesco hands are tied when it comes to what is going on at her place of employment. Let's face it...Francesco has been provided free surveillance offered from his friend. There are many here that would have loved to have this offer when their marriage was in self-destruct mod. With assurance he will get the skinny on what is happening at lunch Francesco should turn his attention to his W. A two prong attack as it were. So, let his W and OM screw up at work when and if it might happen. Francesco friend will be around for that and report back. In the meantime, let his W possibly drop a dime on herself with the probing questions from Francesco in the guise of looking to improve their marriage and relationship. There should no pointed questions about OM. In fact, play the other card....Francesco could simply state he is feeling disconnected. The conversation to move on from there. And, it really is not a lie. Francesco at this time feels disconnected.


I think this is good. He doesn't need to state anything, actually, as it could make her think that he feels there is something wrong and might become more careful if there is something going on with the OM; Francesco could simply refer back to what they were talking about in the weekend and work from there, so she won't associate his behaviour with her relationship with the OM.


----------



## Francesco

Chaparral said:


> On iPhone, it can be checked to see where it's been. Can you find the Italian translation on Google for the find my phone instructions. You should be able to track the phone on your computer and also see where it's been recently.
> 
> Did your friend follow her today?


yes he did, we have a secret code. When there is no worries he sends me a sms writing "great game we had", other wise he calls me.


----------



## Francesco

G.J. said:


> The burner phone would have been brought home last night and taken back to work possibly this morning in her hand bag
> 
> As daughter was possibly in bed and wife alone down stairs last night


D15 rarely falls asleep before my wife, we don't live in a single house but in an apartment without upstairs or downstairs


----------



## Francesco

Yeswecan said:


> I understand this but Francesco hands are tied when it comes to what is going on at her place of employment. Let's face it...Francesco has been provided free surveillance offered from his friend. There are many here that would have loved to have this offer when their marriage was in self-destruct mod. With assurance he will get the skinny on what is happening at lunch Francesco should turn his attention to his W. A two prong attack as it were. So, let his W and OM screw up at work when and if it might happen. Francesco friend will be around for that and report back. In the meantime, let his W possibly drop a dime on herself with the probing questions from Francesco in the guise of looking to improve their marriage and relationship. There should no pointed questions about OM. In fact, play the other card....Francesco could simply state he is feeling disconnected. The conversation to move on from there. And, it really is not a lie. Francesco at this time feels disconnected.



you nailed it!
I have decided to try and pretend all is normal. I will keep acting as if nothing is going on, and if i trigger and she see's it, then i will blame my job for stress. This happened yesterday night, when she asked what was up i just told her that at work there are 2 coworkers sick, and that i need to cover them with there work and that i'm stressed out, it worked so well that she wanted to make love also to relax me!!!


----------



## Francesco

convert said:


> yes having that friend do the P.I. work is very helpful.
> 
> A good P.I. here in U.S. could run you around $350 a day


I am very lucky for this. Keep in mind that my friend is way better then a PI. He does this as a living! I cant get to much in detail but he is one of those agents that use a mask on his head when taking underarm a wanted criminal.


----------



## Francesco

anyway today till monday my friend will be out of town for work. Today he will have a coworker check out, but monday is a problem.
Thinking of getting a 2 hour permit myself.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Francesco said:


> anyway today till monday my friend will be out of town for work. Today he will have a coworker check out, but monday is a problem.
> Thinking of getting a 2 hour permit myself.


Tel, her today that next monday you will be very busy at work and maybe you will be having lunch there. This way if they are up to somehitng they will be confident that wont run to you and may try simething.


----------



## Chaparral

Francesco said:


> you nailed it!
> I have decided to try and pretend all is normal. I will keep acting as if nothing is going on, and if i trigger and she see's it, then i will blame my job for stress. This happened yesterday night, when she asked what was up i just told her that at work there are 2 coworkers sick, and that i need to cover them with there work and that i'm stressed out, it worked so well that she wanted to make love also to relax me!!!


Doesn't sound like a woman in an affair.:smthumbup:


----------



## Francesco

Chaparral said:


> Doesn't sound like a woman in an affair.:smthumbup:



thats why i think i'm paranoid.....


----------



## Chaparral

If you do conclude she isn't in an affair, you still have to talk to her about how inappropriate her lunch dates with the om are.

Even then do not get to feeling guilty and let her know she's been followed. Keep it mysterious. More than one can play James Bond.


----------



## italianjob

Francesco said:


> thats why i think i'm paranoid.....


You shouldn't think this, Francesco, there are facts...

1. Another man is making a play for your wife.
Is he coming on strong or is he just being nice to a beautiful lady? You don't know it yet, but you know the second fact:

2. Your wife is not keeping him at the proper distance.
Maybe she doesn't really think of him "that way", but you do know that she feels guilty about it (her reaction when you saw them), and that means she knows there IS something wrong about it.

If nothing else comes up and it turns out to be just that, the situation is still not healthy, and, in the long run, dangerous for your family and marriage.
So boundaries need to be discussed and enforced.


----------



## turnera

Chaparral said:


> If you do conclude she isn't in an affair, you still have to talk to her about how inappropriate her lunch dates with the om are.


Or find out what crisis is going on that she's not sharing with you.


----------



## Yeswecan

Francesco said:


> thats why i think i'm paranoid.....


I like to look at it as "Protecting one's interests." 

However, OM still needs to be addressed. Appearance at her place of employment at random. Do this as often as possible. Keeps them guessing. Keeps OM at bay.


----------



## Yeswecan

turnera said:


> Or find out what crisis is going on that she's not sharing with you.


Referring back to dating, romancing and having your W be #1 concern in your life. For you see, when she is...all things are possible.


----------



## Chaparral

Did I miss what happened yesterday? Who did she have lunch with yesterday?


----------



## Q tip

Yeswecan said:


> I like to look at it as "Protecting one's interests."
> 
> However, OM still needs to be addressed. Appearance at her place of employment at random. Do this as often as possible. Keeps them guessing. Keeps OM at bay.


If his desk is not there, he is going out of his way to be there for lunch.


----------



## Yeswecan

Q tip said:


> If his desk is not there, he is going out of his way to be there for lunch.


Absolutely. I have no doubt dingle berry at the office is working it. The ultimate question is how to approach handling dingle berry.

-breaking his ankles.


----------



## Chaparral

I think it was said he has his own office there.

To tell her husband they had to have lunch together because of the work hey we're doing just seems like a lie to me.


----------



## drifting on

Francesco

The lunch date where she got out of the car and turned white, can you elaborate on this. She returned ten minutes late from lunch. Did she talk to you or rush back in saying she was late? Did she give you a hug or try to avoid you? If she gave you a hug, was it quick and was her body shaking? If she didn't give you a hug did she avoid getting close to you? 

You asked about her being alone with him for lunch. She said she knew you would ask and that they were working on papers. Perhaps the better question would have been why were you ten minutes late in returning? Did you ask her this? 

The facial touches and holding of hands really bothers me. In my WW case that is how it started. However, it also continued that way after it turned physical. So really, that means it is physical or leading there not much help. You still don't know which. The conversation they had could have been anything. If he was consoling her she could have been crying, scared, or sad. Is that how she appeared? If he was consoling her would her body language be confident with him after while walking back? Doubtful. I don't think he was consoling her for work or personal problems. It doesn't add up that way.

You know at the bench about the touches. Examine what happened after that. She was confident in her body language with him. OM was confident in his. This leads me to believe their conversation was about them. They both exuded confidence in each other. As in together we can do anything. 

Francesco, when my gut was screaming affair my WW did things to make me at ease. To make me believe she wasn't having an affair. This could be anything including sex. Not all women cut sex from their BH, sometimes it increases. Keep in mind your wife hasn't been with OM all week. So maybe she came to you with sex as she can't go to OM? Maybe she has never had sex with OM. Still nothing definitive for you.

I hope you understand how bad I feel for you. I've been there and workplace affairs are very difficult to catch. I went crazy trying to find a smoking gun instead of what was directly in front of me. Your wife at a minimum has boundary issues. It could be a PA, we know I think it is, but I could be wrong. For your sake I hope I am wrong. My only advice is don't question the obvious, but rather what she believes is insignificant. Ask general questions about work to gather information. In other words don't ask if OM has an office but rather did you complete the papers you were working on and turn them in to his office?

Francesco I'm praying for you this isn't what I believe it to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## G.J.

drifting on said:


> Francesco
> 
> The lunch date where she got out of the car and turned white, can you elaborate on this. She returned ten minutes late from lunch. Did she talk to you or rush back in saying she was late? Did she give you a hug or try to avoid you? If she gave you a hug, was it quick and was her body shaking? If she didn't give you a hug did she avoid getting close to you?
> 
> You asked about her being alone with him for lunch. She said she knew you would ask and that they were working on papers. Perhaps the better question would have been why were you ten minutes late in returning? Did you ask her this?
> 
> The facial touches and holding of hands really bothers me. In my WW case that is how it started. However, it also continued that way after it turned physical. So really, that means it is physical or leading there not much help. You still don't know which. The conversation they had could have been anything. If he was consoling her she could have been crying, scared, or sad. Is that how she appeared? If he was consoling her would her body language be confident with him after while walking back? Doubtful. I don't think he was consoling her for work or personal problems. It doesn't add up that way.
> 
> You know at the bench about the touches. Examine what happened after that. She was confident in her body language with him. OM was confident in his. This leads me to believe their conversation was about them. They both exuded confidence in each other. As in together we can do anything.
> 
> Francesco, when my gut was screaming affair my WW did things to make me at ease. To make me believe she wasn't having an affair. This could be anything including sex. Not all women cut sex from their BH, sometimes it increases. Keep in mind your wife hasn't been with OM all week. So maybe she came to you with sex as she can't go to OM? Maybe she has never had sex with OM. Still nothing definitive for you.
> 
> I hope you understand how bad I feel for you. I've been there and workplace affairs are very difficult to catch. I went crazy trying to find a smoking gun instead of what was directly in front of me. Your wife at a minimum has boundary issues. It could be a PA, we know I think it is, but I could be wrong. For your sake I hope I am wrong. My only advice is don't question the obvious, but rather what she believes is insignificant. Ask general questions about work to gather information. In other words don't ask if OM has an office but rather did you complete the papers you were working on and turn them in to his office?
> 
> Francesco I'm praying for you this isn't what I believe it to be.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That day at the minute is a key day and is why I would have loved to have seen a full detailed report from his friend
Very good post Drifting on


----------



## drifting on

G.J. said:


> That day at the minute is a key day and is why I would have loved to have seen a full detailed report from his friend
> Very good post Drifting on


G.J.

Thank you for the kind words. You are correct in that there are a couple key areas to focus and question on INDIRECTLY. Her behavior after turning white. Her behavior after her answer of working on papers. Her behavior about the comment he won't be there. Can't question about the touches yet as she would then know he is spying on her. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. That is what is truly sad for Francesco.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tobyboy

How long should Francesco investigate?

I did it for 6 months. Daily landline phone bugging(we had no cell phones at that time) before I found the smoking gun!!!
I got lucky. My FWW had vacation time to burn, so she was home for a few days during the week. That's when she made the mistake of using the home phone to reach out to her EA partner. Up to that point, I had no proof.....just a raging gut feeling. 

-Toby


----------



## Chaparral

Who went lunch with her Thursday?


----------



## GusPolinski

Haven't followed this thread in a few days, but I received a PM from someone asking for sleuthing tips, tricks, etc re: a Windows phone, specifically w/ respect to any features similar to "Find My iPhone" for the iPhone. Unfortunately, I know roughly "jack" and "sh*t" about Windows phones, but a quick Google search for "find my iphone for Windows phone" did yield the following results...

Find a lost phone | Windows Phone How-to (United States)

Lost your Windows Phone? Here's how to find it | Windows Central

http://www.groovypost.com/howto/windows-phone-8-find-my-phone-security/


----------



## Chaparral

Chaparral said:


> Who went lunch with her Thursday?


Went back and saw "no worries" so she didn't have lunch with him this week. This reeks of going underground or taking a break.


----------



## brendanoco

Chaparral said:


> *I think it was said he has his own office there.*
> 
> To tell her husband they had to have lunch together because of the work hey we're doing just seems like a lie to me.


no francesco said he does not know if he has his own office


----------



## italianjob

Tobyboy said:


> How long should Francesco investigate?
> 
> I did it for 6 months. Daily landline phone bugging(we had no cell phones at that time) before I found the smoking gun!!!
> I got lucky. My FWW had vacation time to burn, so she was home for a few days during the week. That's when she made the mistake of using the home phone to reach out to her EA partner. Up to that point, I had no proof.....just a raging gut feeling.
> 
> -Toby


If I were him, I would like to see what happens when they are both around for lunch and both go back after the break, to see if these "no lunch together" are work related (the OM having to attend work matters) or not, I'd like this to be witnessed a couple of times. Most of all I'd like to see another "car date" and have them followed to ascertain what they do.

Obviously, he can't wait forever for these "events" to happen, and his friend will have to stop surveilling her sooner or later.


----------



## Yeswecan

italianjob said:


> Obviously, he can't wait forever for these "events" to happen, and his friend will have to stop surveilling her sooner or later.


There in lies the problem thus my suggestion for the attention to be turned to the W from Francesco. Probing but not pointed questions. OM can go stew for awhile. And, make announced trips to the W job several times. This lays a framework where they never know when Francesco is coming. Makes it very difficult to do much of anything other than the job they are hired on to do.


----------



## G.J.

If he leaves surveillance out for one day its playing with disaster

I would never chance that


----------



## italianjob

Yeswecan said:


> There in lies the problem thus my suggestion for the attention to be turned to the W from Francesco. Probing but not pointed questions. OM can go stew for awhile. And, make announced trips to the W job several times. This lays a framework where they never know when Francesco is coming. Makes it very difficult to do much of anything other than the job they are hired on to do.


I would leave surveillance ON and try not to make her suspicious for as long as it is possible. That's the only way he can hope to gather more evidence, both positive or negative.

He needs a plan for when surveillance will have to cease, if evidence will not be enough to decide if this is just a case of loose boundaries or more than that.


----------



## Yeswecan

italianjob said:


> I would leave surveillance ON and try not to make her suspicious for as long as it is possible. That's the only way he can hope to gather more evidence, both positive or negative.
> 
> He needs a plan for when surveillance will have to cease, if evidence will not be enough to decide if this is just a case of loose boundaries or more than that.


Certainly have the friend watch as long as he can. But yes, eventually it will have to cease.

I'm feeling loose boundaries in this particular case. Francesco has an opportunity to sure up the walls.


----------



## Chaparral

How was your weekend Francesco, any news?


----------



## G.J.

He was going to do the survellance today 
hmmm

Hope things didnt go pear shape


----------



## Borntohang

I hope all is well...


----------



## Hardtohandle

All I'm gonna say is its 44 pages of stugots... 

I think I was divorced by page 44..

If this inspector is having an affair with your wife, eventually.. You can report him for doing during work hours.. He will get into a lot of trouble and his internal affairs will do the investigation for you.. They will do video as well...


----------



## Borntohang

You ok? I hope your silence is an indicator that nothing is going on... Nothing to report!


----------



## altawa

Awful quiet in here lately.


----------



## the guy

Very interesting.....
Answers and responds to replies, but little update on his old lady?


I haven't been here long, but this is a 1st for me.....to see OP react to other poster's with little to no update on WW...or supposed WW?

Here's my $0.02...

His old lady got caught going out to lunch and knew it was phucked up....and by chance caught her in the beginning of some shady crap which caused her to rethink what she was risking.

End of story.

I mean OP spent weeks replying to posts and yet his special ops didn't turn up shyt.

I could be wrong, but I think OP scared the crap out of his old lady in the beginning?


----------



## Q tip

Well, yes. That's what he indicated. Now he wants to know more and nothing much happened other than the inappropriate touching and lunches with OM in general. 

So he probably did scare the crap out of her. She was white faced.

Just checking on the rabbit hole. There's been no confrontation yet as he is investigating to see what else there might/could be going on. Yes, she's already in trouble. I mean, white faced is WTF already.


----------



## Tobyboy

Thing is....she was caught "white face" last month. Didn't stop them from going out to lunch together just a little more than a week ago. 
Something happened that day on that bench. Francesco wrote about them two walking off together, laughing and being comfortable/confident together until they sat on the bench. Then she looked sad when the OM caressed her cheek and held her hand. After that day, no more lunches together? 

I hope Francesco comes back with good news, but it really doesn't look good right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## italianjob

IDK, if I remember correctly the 3 "incidents" happened over a number of days (I think first time before Christmas, second time in early January and the "open air" lunch about ten days after the second sighting), so if she got scared it took quite some time for fear to sink in.

Yeah, the 3rd time (the one witnessed by surveillance) might have been a "split up meeting" but I'm not so convinced about this, I think if that was the case the body Language would have been different, and what makes me really wonder is: Would you have such a talk out in public? So close to where you work? So close to where you live (Francesco said she goes to work by feet with a 20 minutes walk)? A lot of people you know might see you... 

I don't know what Francesco is up to, he might have decided that he was just being too paranoid (he brought that up a couple of times). If that's what made him stop updating, I hope he's right and he won't have to regret letting this go in the future.


----------



## Chaparral

Through last Thursday, they didn't have lunch after Francesco talked to her and she told him she was worried about him leaving her. Francesco told her no way, unless she cheated on him. Under the circumstances, that seems to have gotten a message across to her.

I'm wondering if the other man was feeding her some bs about Francesco. With what Francesco has said about their relatiinship, its very strange she would come up with that idea. Unless, someone was putting it in her mind to undermine their relationship.

Hopefully, she's seen the light.

On the other hand, Francesco hasnt logged on since last Fri. That may be a very bad sign that something bad has happened.


----------



## G.J.

Tobyboy said:


> Thing is....she was caught "white face" last month. Didn't stop them from going out to lunch together just a little more than a week ago.
> Something happened that day on that bench. Francesco wrote about them two walking off together, laughing and being comfortable/confident together until they sat on the bench. Then she looked sad when the OM caressed her cheek and held her hand. After that day, no more lunches together?
> 
> I hope Francesco comes back with good news, but it really doesn't look good right now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Spot on with my thinking ref 'day on the bench'

I just hope he doesn't allow any days to go unsupervised before he confronts her as the touching said it all

Chaperral he was doing the surveillance on Monday this week so if anything happened it would have been then that my moneys on, and would explain no update


----------



## Q tip

His friends will not let him down either. They seem like brothers. Strong relationships between them. He's in good hands. They'll advise him too.


----------



## Chaparral

I'm surprised he hasn't come back . The more I think about it, I'm beginning to think something happened Monday.


----------



## Tobyboy

Chaparral said:


> I'm surprised he hasn't come back . The more I think about it, I'm beginning to think something happened Monday.


Usually, posters that disappear for a while, come back and update with "nothing new to report". Which is not always good news. It could mean that the poster stop investigating, the affair went underground, so no more redflags, or confrontation resulted in gaslighting. Rarely a full confession is obtained. 

We'll just have to wait and see if Francesco comes back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Yeswecan

Hope all is well for Francesco.


----------



## Nucking Futs




----------



## Q tip

Hi folks. I'm here today to establish an alibi...


----------



## ConanHub

Q tip said:


> Hi folks. I'm here today to establish an alibi...


We're onto you!&#55357;&#56841;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

I hope Francesco's friend didn't have to arrest him!


----------



## Q tip

Chaparral said:


> I hope Francesco's friend didn't have to arrest him!


...and I hope they arrested the OM


----------



## Dyokemm

The longer it goes without even an 'all clear, still monitoring' message from Francesco, the more I tend to think that, unfortunately, his M and family's life may have just been blown up by some discovery or revelation.

Hope I am wrong.


----------



## wmn1

Dyokemm said:


> The longer it goes without even an 'all clear, still monitoring' message from Francesco, the more I tend to think that, unfortunately, his M and family's life may have just been blown up by some discovery or revelation.
> 
> Hope I am wrong.


I know. Really ... I wonder what is going on ...


----------



## Chaparral

I tried a pm several days ago and didn't get an answer.


----------



## Nucking Futs

He hasn't logged on in a week.


----------



## drifting on

Francesco

I hope you are doing good and that I was wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Meltherapist

Sorry to hear about the struggles in your relationship. With the couples I work with in therapy they find it helpful to have conversations about the boundaries they set with male and female co-workers. I am wondering if you have had these direct boundaries setting discussions as a couple. If you have, then you can hold her to task with the agreements you have made. Check out this interesting talk on how to spot a liar. 
Pamela Meyer: How to spot a liar | Talk Video | TED.com
Good Luck
Melody


----------



## Meltherapist

Sorry to hear about the struggles in your relationship. With the couples I work with in therapy they find it helpful to have conversations about the boundaries they set with male and female co-workers. I am wondering if you have had these direct boundaries setting discussions as a couple. If you have, then you can hold her to task with the agreements you have made. Check out this interesting talk on how to spot a liar. 
Pamela Meyer: How to spot a liar | Talk Video | TED.com
Good Luck
Melody


----------



## syhoybenden

?? Resident therapist?


----------



## G.J.

syhoybenden said:


> ?? Resident therapist?


Of course, they get their point across twice as well


----------



## Q tip

syhoybenden said:


> ?? Resident therapist?


"Therapist"?

Oh.. I read it as "The Rapist".

My bad...


----------



## bfree

Q tip said:


> "Therapist"?
> 
> Oh.. I read it as "The Rapist".
> 
> My bad...


That's only when you get the bill.


----------



## GusPolinski

Q tip said:


> "Therapist"?
> 
> Oh.. I read it as "The Rapist".
> 
> My bad...


LOL...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bxnuOdWUmA


----------



## Francesco

Hello everybody!! sorry if i havn't updated but many things has happend! some good news and some bad.
the bad news is that on the 25 of Jannuary my Father was hospitalized for a cardio pleural effusion... (hope i translated it wright). Now things seem better. 
So all my free time has been with him and still is.
The good news is that there is been a terrible misunderstanding with what my wife was doing... 
i hope to post soon a detailed update, but it will be possible only in a couple of days.
Just wanted to say that there is no affair going on.... and i do have a great friend!


----------



## Francesco

by the way, does that therapist know that i live in Italy?


----------



## italianjob

Francesco said:


> Hello everybody!! sorry if i havn't updated but many things has happend! some good news and some bad.
> the bad news is that on the 25 of Jannuary my Father was hospitalized for a cardio pleural effusion... (hope i translated it wright). Now things seem better.
> So all my free time has been with him and still is.
> The good news is that there is been a terrible misunderstanding with what my wife was doing...
> i hope to post soon a detailed update, but it will be possible only in a couple of days.
> Just wanted to say that there is no affair going on.... and i do have a great friend!


Sorry about your dad, I hope he gets well soon.

I'm glad there is no affair going on, that's good news.
I hope you found an explanation to all the strange behaviours (I must confess I'm a bit curious to read the explanation for the body language in the park)


----------



## Q tip

Yes, hard to misunderstand another guys touched her face and both their body language. Remember, you'll have a strong desire to believe nothing's up. "It's not what it looks like..." Is an almost common statement. 

I do hope all is well with your father and wifes situation.


----------



## drifting on

Francesco

Sorry to hear about your father, prayers for a speedy recovery for him. Also good news about your wife, I will happily eat a healthy serving of crow tonight. Best wishes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Yeswecan

Francesco said:


> Hello everybody!! sorry if i havn't updated but many things has happend! some good news and some bad.
> the bad news is that on the 25 of Jannuary my Father was hospitalized for a cardio pleural effusion... (hope i translated it wright). Now things seem better.
> So all my free time has been with him and still is.
> The good news is that there is been a terrible misunderstanding with what my wife was doing...
> i hope to post soon a detailed update, but it will be possible only in a couple of days.
> Just wanted to say that there is no affair going on.... and i do have a great friend!


Prayers for your dad!
Glad there was a huge misunderstanding concerning your W.
Yes sir...you do a great friend!

You have a few at TAM as well!!!


----------



## Francesco

Hello Tam family! I owe you all an update now that i have some free time.

So where to start? first thing my dad is always in ICU but is feeling better.... he got me worried a couple of times but it seems that all is under control. Still under attention but ok.
Instead with my wife things turned out a bit different from what I thought...

Apparently my friend did not go out of town for work that weekend (friday till monday) like he said he would. instead he stayed and did an investigation service which he had planned without telling me. Turned out that my wife that friday got in om's car, he followed them to a normal building full of office's and studio's.
He waited till they got out and followed them inside the hall. My wife knows him so he stayed at a safe distance. They got inside the elevator with other people, and he only noted the floors the elevator went before stopping, the elevator had stopped in 3 different floors.... he then waited outside and after a little bit more then a half hour they came back down, my wife had papers and she was watching them with OM, then he gave her a hug and they went back to work.
My friend then looked up what was on the floors of the building from his office, one floor had 2 private apartments, one floor had a gynecological practice and a private apartment and one had was only dedicated to an engineering firm.
His suspects were obviously for the gynecological practice.
He did further investigations and it turns out that at the gynecological practice worked the OM's wife! She is a gynecologist.
My friend had all the info he wanted, but since i was having problems with my father, he decided to tell me only after the danger was over. 
I then talked to my wife, i did'nt say nothing of what was going on, i only told her that "friend" saw her with OM while she was entering a building, and this time in a calm voice told her whats going on, and i did not mention the part of OMW...
In a few words OM was helping my wife.... My wife was looking for a gynecologist because she wanted to understand the problems that she was having. OM told her about his wife and she excepted first to meet her and then to be her patient. 
She had symptoms of menopause and never told me about it, she said that she was afraid that i would get upset and change. She told me that OM was giving her rides to his wife studio on hours that she was free, that OM knowing the problem was only being gentile. 
I found about this after i told her that i found it strange that she would always be with him on car rides during lunch. She cried at the thought that i suspected her having an affair, and apologized for not telling me what really was going on.

Well, in a few words this is the story.... i feel a bit guilty for not telling her about the surveillance and the whole drama i was going through but as soon as things get better i count on doing so.


----------



## italianjob

Francesco said:


> Hello Tam family! I owe you all an update now that i have some free time.
> 
> So where to start? first thing my dad is always in ICU but is feeling better.... he got me worried a couple of times but it seems that all is under control. Still under attention but ok.
> Instead with my wife things turned out a bit different from what I thought...
> 
> Apparently my friend did not go out of town for work that weekend (friday till monday) like he said he would. instead he stayed and did an investigation service which he had planned without telling me. Turned out that my wife that friday got in om's car, he followed them to a normal building full of office's and studio's.
> He waited till they got out and followed them inside the hall. My wife knows him so he stayed at a safe distance. They got inside the elevator with other people, and he only noted the floors the elevator went before stopping, the elevator had stopped in 3 different floors.... he then waited outside and after a little bit more then a half hour they came back down, my wife had papers and she was watching them with OM, then he gave her a hug and they went back to work.
> My friend then looked up what was on the floors of the building from his office, one floor had 2 private apartments, one floor had a gynecological practice and a private apartment and one had was only dedicated to an engineering firm.
> His suspects were obviously for the gynecological practice.
> He did further investigations and it turns out that at the gynecological practice worked the OM's wife! She is a gynecologist.
> My friend had all the info he wanted, but since i was having problems with my father, he decided to tell me only after the danger was over.
> I then talked to my wife, i did'nt say nothing of what was going on, i only told her that "friend" saw her with OM while she was entering a building, and this time in a calm voice told her whats going on, and i did not mention the part of OMW...
> In a few words OM was helping my wife.... My wife was looking for a gynecologist because she wanted to understand the problems that she was having. OM told her about his wife and she excepted first to meet her and then to be her patient.
> She had symptoms of menopause and never told me about it, she said that she was afraid that i would get upset and change. She told me that OM was giving her rides to his wife studio on hours that she was free, that OM knowing the problem was only being gentile.
> I found about this after i told her that i found it strange that she would always be with him on car rides during lunch. She cried at the thought that i suspected her having an affair, and apologized for not telling me what really was going on.
> 
> Well, in a few words this is the story.... i feel a bit guilty for not telling her about the surveillance and the whole drama i was going through but as soon as things get better i count on doing so.


That's good Francesco, I wouldn't have guessed it.

Don't feel guilty, things looked bad, and she should have told you, IMO.


----------



## adriana

Francesco said:


> In a few words OM was helping my wife.... My wife was looking for a gynecologist because she wanted to understand the problems that she was having. OM told her about his wife and she excepted first to meet her and then to be her patient.
> She had symptoms of menopause and never told me about it, she said that she was afraid that i would get upset and change. She told me that OM was giving her rides to his wife studio on hours that she was free, that OM knowing the problem was only being gentile.
> I found about this after i told her that i found it strange that she would always be with him on car rides during lunch. She cried at the thought that i suspected her having an affair, and apologized for not telling me what really was going on.
> 
> Well, in a few words this is the story.... i feel a bit guilty for not telling her about the surveillance and the whole drama i was going through but as soon as things get better i count on doing so.



I don't know but for some reason I think there is more to this story than meets the eye. I just hope that I am wrong.


----------



## turnera

Huh? What woman gets ANOTHER MAN to help her with WOMAN'S ISSUES?

Sorry, but I cry foul. 

Even if they aren't fully having an affair, that is what YOU should be doing. She should NEVER be giving any other man that kind of private information if she's not also giving it to you.

She has somehow decided that you are not to be trusted with her private thoughts and feelings, yet he is. 

You are still in danger.


----------



## G.J.

So your OK with her confiding in a co worker more than you ?

I think you've been fobbed, sorry

And she's still hugging him...fine with me if its ok with you

All sounds weird..lets hope his wife was there in the practice that day


----------



## italianjob

Yeah, didn't think about it...

How come the OM knew she had gynecological problems and you didn't?

Did she know her wife was a gynecologist?

If she didn't why would she talk to him about those problems, or tell them to her coworkers, but not to you?


----------



## turnera

There is NO way I would tell another man about my menopause issues. I have some close male friends and I still would never discuss it with them. You just don't do that.


----------



## brendanoco

why is everyone jumping to the conclusion that she told the OM about her issues, she probably knew that the OM wife was a gynaecologist and asked him to set up a meeting


----------



## adriana

turnera said:


> Huh? *What woman gets ANOTHER MAN to help her with WOMAN'S ISSUES?*
> 
> Sorry, but I cry foul.



And this would be particularly true in a case of any Italian Woman. I just don't see it happening in the real life.


----------



## tom67

brendanoco said:


> why is everyone jumping to the conclusion that she told the OM about her issues, she probably knew that the OM wife was a gynaecologist and asked him to set up a meeting


I get what you are saying but why wouldn't she tell her husband not this guy.
It at a minimum is odd wouldn't you agree?:scratchhead:


----------



## tom67

italianjob said:


> Yeah, didn't think about it...
> 
> How come the OM knew she had gynecological problems and you didn't?
> 
> Did she know her wife was a gynecologist?
> 
> If she didn't why would she talk to him about those problems, or tell them to her coworkers, but not to you?


That is just too personal imo.
Maybe it's nothing but...


----------



## Q tip

So they're meeting at office when W is not there or office closed??

They've got a great story concocted. 

Common sense here. Why the hell is she sharing private info with OM. This is a story. It is pure BS.

I am really angry now. They will know to cool it for a while. Confiding deep personal things with another man. Not husband. She is of the age where she wants to know she's still "got it". Apparently she does.

I do not buy the story for one second.

All cheaters have an excuse. I almost coughed up my tea when I read this.

I think you will believe anything and any excuse. This is a good one.

Why doesn't your friend follow this guy and see who else he brings to his wife's place (while she's not there). Seems he has a working plan.

I am sorry, I see big problems with all this. And he probably tells her to keep these visits secret as they have something so special. Just like he tells many many other women.

I pray I am wrong, I really do.

Have this bastard followed for a month(not your wife). You'll see. Perhaps they don't make it to the third floor anyway. Bet he brings in lots of ladies there. Visit on day off? Yeah right.

Contact the doctor. See if she's seen your wife. Find out the dates she's seen her. 

This does not pass the smell test. Not at all.

Whenever I see a doctor, I never confide in my wife. I always talk to and see other women. They hug me, caress my cheek and give me multiple rides to their friends, H for special secret care for me out of sight of my wife's prying eyes. After all my marriage is built of secrecy and lies.

Bull Sh!t

I hope I am just plain wrong about this. It is so inappropriate. Have this OM followed. Bet he "helps" lots of ladies. Call the doctor and confirm visits and procedures. Does she do abortions? Nothing makes sense to me.

===============================

Oh, if it's all true, and I am insane. A good book for her...

What Your Doctor May Not Tell You about Premenopause - Balance Your Hormones and Your Life From Thirty to Fifty

By Drs. John R Lee and Jesse Hanley

And my sincere heart felt apologies. I have been wrong before.


----------



## turnera

Even if he didn't know what her problems were, a coworker driving me to his wife's gyno office? Uh, no way. Yuck.

Anyway, I hope it's just me. I hope it's nothing. And I hope you continue to monitor. Just in case.

And for God's sake, fix whatever's wrong with your marriage so that she no longer feels comfortable holding another man's hand and letting him touch her face!


----------



## brendanoco

Q tip said:


> *So they're meeting at office when W is not there or office closed.*
> 
> They've got a great story concocted.
> 
> Common sense here. Why the hell is she sharing private info with OM. This is a story. It is pure BS.
> 
> I am really angry now. They will know to cool it for a while. Confiding deep personal things with another man. Not husband. She is of the age where she wants to know she's still "got it". Apparently she does.
> 
> I do not buy the story for one second.
> 
> All cheaters have an excuse. I almost coughed up my tea when I read this.
> 
> I think you will believe anything and any excuse. This is a good one.
> 
> Why doesn't your friend follow this guy and see who else he brings to his wife's place (while she's not there). Seems he has a working plan.
> 
> I am sorry, I see big problems with all this. And he probably tells her to keep these visits secret as they have something so special. Just like he tells many many other women.
> 
> I pray I am wrong, I really do.
> 
> Have this bastard followed for a month. You'll see. Perhaps they don't make it to the third floor anyway. Bet he brings in lots of ladies there. Visit on day off? Yeah right.
> 
> Contact the doctor. See if she's seen your wife. Find out the dates she's seen her.
> 
> This does not pass the smell test. Not at all.


how have you come to that conclusion?


----------



## convert

yea it does not seem right

we have at least 2 women here saying the same thing


----------



## Francesco

well i summarized the whole thing, but ther are more details.
It started when One of her female coworkers knew about OM wife, and she suggested to ask OM if his wife was ok to get an appointment out of work hours.
He didn't know about the problem, he just talked with his wife and she said that is was ok, told him when my wife could stop by. Om offered her a ride this wife that first time.
OMW did her visit and told her what she needed to have, such as blood test's.
OM knew what was going on only when he saw my wife upset and sad after one of the latest visits (my wife is only 40 so she was plenty upset when she found out that she really has this problem). According to her, she told him in that moment of weakness, and he suggested to talk to me and told her to not worry....
If he in the meanwhile was playing a duoble game i don't know... but doing so while with OMW?


----------



## G.J.

brendanoco said:


> why is everyone jumping to the conclusion that she told the OM about her issues, she probably knew that the OM wife was a gynaecologist and asked him to set up a meeting


I showed my wife Francescos answer and she's Italian and couldn't understand any Italian girl getting a guy let alone a co worker to 
get his wife to see her at the practice


----------



## italianjob

Well, it can get checked now, at least partly.

Now that you know she can get appointments when you can drive her there.
Tell her you're worried for her and you wanna be there.

If she goes out of her way to not go with you, you'll know there's something fishy...


----------



## convert

francesco said:


> well i summarized the whole thing, but ther are more details.
> It started when one of her female coworkers knew about om wife, and she suggested to ask om if his wife was ok to get an appointment out of work hours.
> He didn't know about the problem, he just talked with his wife and she said that is was ok, told him when my wife could stop by. Om offered her a ride this wife that first time.
> Omw did her visit and told her what she needed to have, such as blood test's.
> Om knew what was going on only when he saw my wife upset and sad after one of the latest visits (my wife is only 40 so she was plenty upset when she found out that she really has this problem). According to her, she told him in that moment of weakness, and he suggested to talk to me and told her to not worry....
> If he in the meanwhile was playing a duoble game i don't know... But doing so while with omw?


*go with her next appointment*


----------



## tom67

italianjob said:


> Well, it can get checked now, at least partly.
> 
> Now that you know she can get appointments when you can drive her there.
> Tell her you're worried for her and you wanna be there.
> 
> If she goes out of her way to not go with you, you'll know there's something fishy...


Yes!!!:iagree::iagree::iagree:
Insist.


----------



## Q tip

brendanoco said:


> how have you come to that conclusion?


Needs confirmation. If some cheating is going on, his wife will probably not be there...


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> Well, it can get checked now, at least partly.
> 
> Now that you know she can get appointments when you can drive her there.
> Tell her you're worried for her and you wanna be there.
> 
> If she goes out of her way to not go with you, you'll know there's something fishy...


thats what i told her when we talked. She said that now that there is the certain problem, thats what we would do.
She said that not knowing for sure and also not wanting to get work hours off, that it was useless to talk about without her first knowing for sure.


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> well i summarized the whole thing, but ther are more details.
> It started when One of her female coworkers knew about OM wife, and she suggested to ask OM if his wife was ok to get an appointment out of work hours.
> He didn't know about the problem, he just talked with his wife and she said that is was ok, told him when my wife could stop by. Om offered her a ride this wife that first time.
> OMW did her visit and told her what she needed to have, such as blood test's.
> OM knew what was going on only when he saw my wife upset and sad after one of the latest visits (my wife is only 40 so she was plenty upset when she found out that she really has this problem). According to her, she told him in that moment of weakness, and he suggested to talk to me and told her to not worry....
> If he in the meanwhile was playing a duoble game i don't know... but doing so while with OMW?


OM took advantage of moment of weakness. Touch face, hold hands, her shocked look at you when you saw here. No explanations... Really?


----------



## altawa

Maybe I missed it, but was it CONFIRMED that they didnt duck into one of the apartments? I mean, it would be very convenient to have an apartment in the same building as a medical practice. Does he live there?


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> well i summarized the whole thing, but ther are more details.
> It started when One of her female coworkers knew about OM wife, and she suggested to ask OM if his wife was ok to get an appointment out of work hours.
> He didn't know about the problem, he just talked with his wife and she said that is was ok, told him when my wife could stop by. Om offered her a ride this wife that first time.
> OMW did her visit and told her what she needed to have, such as blood test's.
> OM knew what was going on only when he saw my wife upset and sad after one of the latest visits (my wife is only 40 so she was plenty upset when she found out that she really has this problem). According to her, she told him in that moment of weakness, and he suggested to talk to me and told her to not worry....
> If he in the meanwhile was playing a duoble game i don't know... but doing so while with OMW?


Call doctor and confirm every visit. Get copies of bills. Treatments, everything. 

Then talk to wife, get copies of bills from her and dates. See if they match up.

Forbid her to see OM. Never alone, on dates... Nothing. See if they disappeared on the same date as appointment.

How dare she do this even if true. Allow another man to get close, hold hands, touch, so freely and openly. What else happened I wonder. You may never know.


----------



## Q tip

italianjob said:


> Well, it can get checked now, at least partly.
> 
> Now that you know she can get appointments when you can drive her there.
> Tell her you're worried for her and you wanna be there.
> 
> If she goes out of her way to not go with you, you'll know there's something fishy...


Well, she can pretend too. Call the doctor..


----------



## Francesco

when i will go with her on her next appointment, i count on having a long talk with OMW also about things done and a timeline from the past of the visits.
i will do so only to try to understand my wife's problem, and also to see if dates matches.....


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> thats what i told her when we talked. She said that now that there is the certain problem, thats what we would do.
> She said that not knowing for sure and also not wanting to get work hours off, that it was useless to talk about without her first knowing for sure.


Bull ****. Sounds like a story to me... Ok I'll. behave now.

Confirm visits with doctor separately from wife. Then confirm with wife visits separately from docs records.

Include off day visits...

Just listen... Useless to talk to you, but useful to talk to Other men? And coworkers. Anyone but you? Anything wrong here?


----------



## italianjob

Francesco said:


> thats what i told her when we talked. She said that now that there is the certain problem, thats what we would do.
> She said that not knowing for sure and also not wanting to get work hours off, that it was useless to talk about without her first knowing for sure.


That's good.

It's still not a good thing she didn't talk to you about her problems especially after you saw her twice on the OM car. Even assuming that there is nothing else, to let you think she might be cheating rather than telling you about her Health issues is just too cruel IMO.


----------



## turnera

In the US, unless she already authorized it, the doctor's office isn't allowed to share with him whether she's even a client there. Don't know about Italy.

But Qtip's right, Francesco. You need a frank discussion about what boundary was crossed and what this coworker was most likely planning, and ask her if she's going to cross that line again.


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> OM took advantage of moment of weakness. Touch face, hold hands, her shocked look at you when you saw here. No explanations... Really?


I couldn't ask her that, because otherwise she would've known that i had her followed. I am guessing that OM knew by then the problem and was giving her courage to not worry...


----------



## Tobyboy

You need to confirm that the OM doesn't have an apartment at that same building. Think about it? If the wife is gynecologist there, she might rent an apartment there to spend the night when overworked. 
First thing. Get all the times your wife visited the dr. and cross reference with the drs. office and the times you saw them in the car together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Q tip

Tobyboy said:


> You need to confirm that the OM doesn't have an apartment at that same building. Think about it? If the wife is gynecologist there, she might rent an apartment there to spend the night when overworked.
> First thing. Get all the times your wife visited the dr. and cross reference with the drs. office and the times you saw them in the car together.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And have OM followed independent of your wife. He may be doing this quite a bit.

This story and her behavior is so inappropriate on so many levels.


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> Bull ****. Sounds like a story to me... Ok I'll. behave now.
> 
> Confirm visits with doctor separately from wife. Then confirm with wife visits separately from docs records.
> 
> Include off day visits...


I cant do that for medical privacy, but like i said before, when i will go on her next visit, i will say things regarding past visits to see and match the dates of the OMs car drive's...


----------



## Tobyboy

Francesco said:


> I couldn't ask her that, because otherwise she would've known that i had her followed. I am guessing that OM knew by then the problem and was giving her courage to not worry...


You first saw them together in December. SHE LIED to you when she said they were just having lunch!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Francesco

altawa said:


> Maybe I missed it, but was it CONFIRMED that they didnt duck into one of the apartments? I mean, it would be very convenient to have an apartment in the same building as a medical practice. Does he live there?


that is possible, but in the same building of OMW? Then my friend investigated also on the private apartments, and family people live in them..


----------



## turnera

Francesco said:


> I cant do that for medical privacy, but like i said before, when i will go on her next visit, i will say things regarding past visits to see and match the dates of the OMs car drive's...


Just ask your wife for all the receipts. She already knows you're doubting her. Let her prove it to you.


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> I couldn't ask her that, because otherwise she would've known that i had her followed. I am guessing that OM knew by then the problem and was giving her courage to not worry...


WTF... Just ask her if this guys touched her, or talk in such a way she tell you... You'll know the lie as you know the truth. Tell her he might be the guy you've heard about that has a reputation. It seems so inappropriate. What else has he done with her... Open questions.

Boundaries. Did she cross boundaries, sharing her health issues, secretly going around town with OM... Just keep asking open questions. What else she does.

Boundaries are not doing anything in front of you and not doing the same behind your back.


----------



## Tobyboy

Remember when she was first followed by your friend? He explained that they both looked happy and confident together!! This was weeks after being caught together in his car!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> I cant do that for medical privacy, but like i said before, when i will go on her next visit, i will say things regarding past visits to see and match the dates of the OMs car drive's...


Get permission to share medical. You have for your father you know.


----------



## Francesco

turnera said:


> Just ask your wife for all the receipts. She already knows you're doubting her. Let her prove it to you.


she showed them on her own. she showed me the test results, the requites of other test's and also that she needs to go on the pill written by omw


----------



## Q tip

Keep,it a secret. They have something so special. In that list of PUA items...

If there are so many medical secrets, why is it only a secret from you then... Seems OM and coworkers have no issues with her personal info... 

You defend her so much. That's good and maybe not so good.


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> WTF... Just ask her if this guys touched her, or talk in such a way she tell you... You'll know the lie as you know the truth. Tell her he might be the guy you've heard about that has a reputation. It seems so inappropriate. What else has he done with her... Open questions.
> 
> Boundaries. Did she cross boundaries, sharing her health issues, secretly going around town with OM... Just keep asking open questions. What else she does.
> 
> Boundaries are not doing anything in front of you and not doing the same behind your back.


i do count on telling her (not now) what i had done and what i suspected. I wont say who helped me, but i will say that someone was keeping an eye on her. The bench situation will pop up, and i will see from there what she will say


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> she showed them on her own. she showed me the test results, the requites of other test's and also that she needs to go on the pill written by omw


I wonder if OM knows about these pills....

Maybe more convenient. And you wife does not let you know until you asked????

OMG

I've never held a woman's hand or caressed her cheek while she gets an appointment to get a pill... And happy body language... Or had them keep it a secret from their H.

I would be saying... Not my problem. Why are you telling me your health issues.

Have OM followed.


----------



## Francesco

Tobyboy said:


> Remember when she was first followed by your friend? He explained that they both looked happy and confident together!! This was weeks after being caught together in his car!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



yes i know. She told me her first appointment was in early October. So from workplace and visits at OMW i also think that they got to much confident... this is something that will be discussed


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> Get permission to share medical. You have for your father you know.


i can ask.... the problem with my father is far different.


----------



## Q tip

This so secret and personal, only the most important man in her life can know about this. 

Francesco, are you the second most important man in her life?

She's on the pill and does not tell you?


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> Keep,it a secret. They have something so special. In that list of PUA items...
> 
> If there are so many medical secrets, why is it only a secret from you then... Seems OM and coworkers have no issues with her personal info...
> 
> You defend her so much. That's good and maybe not so good.



no, i still have doubts but many things she said have sense.


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> I wonder if OM knows about these pills....
> 
> Maybe more convenient. And you wife does not let you know until you asked????
> 
> OMG
> 
> I've never held a woman's hand or caressed her cheek while she gets an appointment to get a pill... And happy body language... Or had them keep it a secret from their H.
> 
> I would be saying... Not my problem. Why are you telling me your health issues.
> 
> Have OM followed.


no, sorry i didn't explane correctly. She should start to take the pill, she still hasn't. OMW had written her the receipt for them


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> no, sorry i didn't explane correctly. She should start to take the pill, she still hasn't. OMW had written her the receipt for them


And not tell you until asked..

I am sorry, perhaps there are cultural differences I am unaware of.

I would be going apesh!t. From the very day I saw her white face. That is the look of secrecy fright and getting caught. That's not a doctors visit secret from you. She would have been given a chance to come clean that second. Forbid that behavior and deal the OM a few things too. If it were all true and innocent, I'd rather apologize than let her off your way. Or even not apologize at all.

I'd have shamed her for sharing secrets with another guy. And the other guy might just trip and fall and hurt himself. I would have taken advantage of her shock and gotten the truth right there. 

I'm her man. I protect my marriage, her, kids. I own the marriage. I lead and manage the relationship. When she's bad, I fix her. When she's good, I reward her. I guide her, coach her enable her as she does me. If she lies... Wow.

Right now you have proof of her lies and secrecy. That's all you have. Sure she prettied it up. Sugar coated it, but it's just lies and deceit, She owns her lies.

Her physical changes won't get you to leave her, but OM has other ideas. To prove to her at 40 she's still "has it". So far, he's winning.

Honest doctor visit or something worse, my wife would know just where I stand. 

But, I've had a talk about boundaries with my wife years ago. I maintain the same high standards. Zero exceptions. Especially doctors visits... OM knows about her pill before you did. 

I would be outraged.


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> And not tell you until asked..


i did not ask, she showed them on her own.


----------



## Tobyboy

Francesco said:


> yes i know. She told me her first appointment was in early October. So from workplace and visits at OMW i also think that they got to much confident... this is something that will be discussed


October!!!! That's like 4 months!!!! She been lying and hiding this from you for 4 months!!!!
Sorry Francesco, I wanted to believe her story but not anymore. I think you wanted to believe it too!


----------



## Yeswecan

Francesco said:


> well i summarized the whole thing, but ther are more details.
> It started when One of her female coworkers knew about OM wife, and she suggested to ask OM if his wife was ok to get an appointment out of work hours.
> He didn't know about the problem, he just talked with his wife and she said that is was ok, told him when my wife could stop by. Om offered her a ride this wife that first time.
> OMW did her visit and told her what she needed to have, such as blood test's.
> OM knew what was going on only when he saw my wife upset and sad after one of the latest visits (my wife is only 40 so she was plenty upset when she found out that she really has this problem). According to her, she told him in that moment of weakness, and he suggested to talk to me and told her to not worry....
> If he in the meanwhile was playing a duoble game i don't know... but doing so while with OMW?


Francesco, my W is going through perimenapausal at age 42. She does not discuss the issue with anyone but her closests girlfriends and me. In fact, she just went through removal of a ovarian cyst. She is upset, confused, wonder about our sex life, etc. But at the end of the day my W came to me for help, answers and support. If what you W says is true, she was afraid to tell you, then you need to express to her in no uncertain terms that you are there for ANYTHING. This includes rides to the Dr during her lunch break.


----------



## Francesco

Tobyboy said:


> October!!!! That's like 4 months!!!! She been lying and hiding this from you for 4 months!!!!
> Sorry Francesco, I wanted to believe her story but not anymore. I think you wanted to believe it too!


the visits from october till the end of november were only 3 times. 1 in october and 2 in november


----------



## Tobyboy

Francesco said:


> the visits from october till the end of november were only 3 times. 1 in october and 2 in november


So why were they together in his car in December ? And early January?


----------



## G.J.

Francesco said:


> the visits from october till the end of november were only 3 times. 1 in october and 2 in november


And the miracle of miracles you saw 2 of them !!!!!!!!!!!!

Quick buy a lottery ticker


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> the visits from october till the end of november were only 3 times. 1 in october and 2 in november


And how many dates with OM. Ask her... These were not doctors visits. Damn she's got you wishful thinking...


----------



## Yeswecan

Francesco said:


> I couldn't ask her that, because otherwise she would've known that i had her followed. I am guessing that OM knew by then the problem and was giving her courage to not worry...


Francesco...giving courage is your job. Not OM who..well..was there for me kind of response if something happens. 

Come on man...why would you W not consult you? Would dr bills not arrive at your home eventually? Why the cover up?


----------



## Q tip

Perhaps tell her you don't want her on the pill as you've lost all trust in her...

Anyway, read that book I recommended. Not sure if it's printed in Italian. Things OMs wife probably won't tell her.


----------



## Yeswecan

Francesco said:


> she showed them on her own. she showed me the test results, the requites of other test's and also that she needs to go on the pill written by omw


So it appears the Dr has written a prescription for birth control pills which is basically estrogen to help regulate the perimenapause? Sounds about right as my W is going through the same ordeal. However, she is not on the pill. She is one to have nature take it's course. 

So, this might check out. That is good. However, the confiding in OM and leaving you in the dark is not good.


----------



## italianjob

Francesco,
I don't want to overplay this, especially at this moment when you also have problems with your daddy's health.

There are a few things that don't stand up like they should in this story:

1- It is very strange that her coworkers know and you don't. When my wife started having these problems, I was involved from the get go. If she didn't want to tell she would have made an appointment with a doctor and gone on her own. 
Being ashamed to tell the husband and not being ashamed to tell coworkers is just too weird...

2 - It's almost 5 months, a bit too much to keeping this a secret. If my wife had seen me in a suspicious situation (like you saw her in the OM car) and it had an innocent explanation, I would tell her immediately, not lie about it and then admit the truth when confronted. 

3 - The meeting in the park is not explained by this story. OK he fix the appointments and takes her there. That doesn't mean she has to tell him what is happening (him and not you, weird again!) a have him console her...

You need to:
- Have a good talk with the doctor/OMW, to confirm all the details of the medical matter and try to understand if all is ok with the story of the appointments.
- Verify that the gynecologist IS actually OMW.

You may:
- Confide your friend the doubts that have been raised and that you have yourself and ask for his opinion.
- Act like you believe everything with your wife but take a look at what's happening now that all is calm...


----------



## Q tip

Her OM knew what you don't. Also thinking about her taking the pill before you knew.

It was just lunch, it was just a doctors visit, he was so nice to me, he just wiped away a tear. He only held my hand. 

It was just our little secret from you for just a short time. Next will be it was just a hug. It was just a kiss. He's so nice. 

Then suddenly, how did she let that happen. Will her Francesco find out. How did she let it go so far... But, it was so fun. She now hates herself. Can you just forgive her, just this once...

Francesco, Francesco, Francesco...


----------



## Yeswecan

Francesco said:


> no, i still have doubts but many things she said have sense.


A lot of things she has said and what the Dr has done makes sense. However, I believe she has become a bit to close to the OM and confiding to much with him. Honestly, what goes with my W reproductive systems is shared with me, doctor, her closest friend(female) and family. Personally I would be upset that she did not come to me for support. 

And, the OM....I think he is a PUA. He needs to have the point driven home that none of his game is going to be entertained on any level.


----------



## tom67

Yeswecan said:


> So it appears the Dr has written a prescription for birth control pills which is basically estrogen to help regulate the perimenapause? Sounds about right as my W is going through the same ordeal. However, she is not on the pill. She is one to have nature take it's course.
> 
> So, this might check out. That is good. However, the confiding in OM and leaving you in the dark is not good.


:iagree::iagree:
That has to change.


----------



## Q tip

Tobyboy said:


> October!!!! That's like 4 months!!!! She been lying and hiding this from you for 4 months!!!!
> Sorry Francesco, I wanted to believe her story but not anymore. I think you wanted to believe it too!


Well, it was her and OMs little secret.


----------



## Yeswecan

Q tip said:


> And not tell you until asked..
> 
> I am sorry, perhaps there are cultural differences I am unaware of.
> 
> I would be going apesh!t. From the very day I saw her white face. That is the look of secrecy fright and getting caught. That's not a doctors visit secret from you. She would have been given a chance to come clean that second. Forbid that behavior and deal the OM a few things too. If it were all true and innocent, I'd rather apologize than let her off your way. Or even not apologize at all.
> 
> I'd have shamed her for sharing secrets with another guy. And the other guy might just trip and fall and hurt himself. I would have taken advantage of her shock and gotten the truth right there.
> 
> I'm her man. I protect my marriage, her, kids. I own the marriage. I lead and manage the relationship. When she's bad, I fix her. When she's good, I reward her. I guide her, coach her enable her as she does me. If she lies... Wow.
> 
> Right now you have proof of her lies and secrecy. That's all you have. Sure she prettied it up. Sugar coated it, but it's just lies and deceit, She owns her lies.
> 
> *Her physical changes won't get you to leave her, but OM has other ideas. To prove to her at 40 she's still "has it". So far, he's winning.
> 
> Honest doctor visit or something worse, my wife would know just where I stand. *
> 
> But, I've had a talk about boundaries with my wife years ago. I maintain the same high standards. Zero exceptions. Especially doctors visits... OM knows about her pill before you did.
> 
> I would be outraged.


Francesco..what is in bold is what OM is up to in my opinion. I too would be very upset if my W kept this from me. Did your W honestly think she could hide the mood swings and other physical issues that come with the change in life? Keeping this from you and lying about it is not good.


----------



## Yeswecan

Francesco said:


> the visits from october till the end of november were only 3 times. 1 in october and 2 in november


Three times to many without a mention of what is going on. What else does she hide that she feels might affect you? There are a lot of questions with very few answers. :scratchhead:

Honestly...if my wife gets her finger nicked while getting her nails done she tells me. Your W is going through a MAJOR change in life and well...douche bag at work gets all the details. Honestly..what is she thinking?


----------



## Tobyboy

Here's another nugget. Remember the first time you asked her about the OM? Remember how she reacted? She laughed at you and said "I knew you were gonna ask me that". WTF!!!!

Another one. So was she lying when she said that they were working on a case together and that's why they were having "lunch"?

Many times she has had the opportunity to confess. She's failed everytime.


----------



## Q tip

Yeswecan said:


> A lot of things she has said and what the Dr has done makes sense. However, I believe she has become a bit to close to the OM and confiding to much with him. Honestly, what goes with my W reproductive systems is shared with me, doctor, her closest friend(female) and family. Personally I would be upset that she did not come to me for support.
> 
> And, the OM....I think he is a PUA. He needs to have the point driven home that none of his game is going to be entertained on any level.


Francesco, read the PUA post earlier again.

He's been nicing and friending her for months behind your back. She may be innocent, just like he likes them. Married ones don't talk. Your W certainly didn't.

She's going on the pill? And it was their very own secret? 

Wake up. Forbid her to ever see that doctor or OM ever. You're playing with fire being the nice guy. Women have no respect for nice guys (salmon) especially when exciting sharks are in the water.

She's 40. Women start thinking at that age. The book MMSLP speaks to this. (I do hope you're reading it).

If she did not have a pvssy, OM would not be bothering her. Does he help guys out with prostate issues? Nope. Why? No pvssy involved...

So get in there and c0ckblock, before your W does.


----------



## Yeswecan

italianjob said:


> Francesco,
> I don't want to overplay this, especially at this moment when you also have problems with your daddy's health.
> 
> There are a few things that don't stand up like they should in this story:
> 
> 1- It is very strange that her coworkers know and you don't. When my wife started having these problems, I was involved from the get go. If she didn't want to tell she would have made an appointment with a doctor and gone on her own.
> Being ashamed to tell the husband and not being ashamed to tell coworkers is just too weird... *BIG BINGO!*
> 
> 2 - It's almost 5 months, a bit too much to keeping this a secret. If my wife had seen me in a suspicious situation (like you saw her in the OM car) and it had an innocent explanation, I would tell her immediately, not lie about it and then admit the truth when confronted. *If the Dr visits is what this was about your W should have let you know at that exact moment!*
> 
> 3 - The meeting in the park is not explained by this story. OK he fix the appointments and takes her there. That doesn't mean she has to tell him what is happening (him and not you, weird again!) a have him console her... *Yep...no explanation of this. There are holes in this store than Swish cheese.*
> 
> You need to:
> - Have a good talk with the doctor/OMW, to confirm all the details of the medical matter and try to understand if all is ok with the story of the appointments.
> - Verify that the gynecologist IS actually OMW. *Roger that!*
> 
> You may:
> - Confide your friend the doubts that have been raised and that you have yourself and ask for his opinion.
> - Act like you believe everything with your wife but take a look at what's happening now that all is calm...


----------



## Yeswecan

Tobyboy said:


> Here's another nugget. Remember the first time you asked her about the OM? Remember how she reacted? She laughed at you and said "I knew you were gonna ask me that". WTF!!!!
> 
> Another one. So was she lying when she said that they were working on a case together and that's why they were having "lunch"?
> 
> Many times she has had the opportunity to confess. She's failed everytime.


Something to think about. 

*Honestly, your W has a lot of explaining to do, Francesco. This is really starting to stink the high Heavens. *


----------



## italianjob

Tobyboy said:


> Here's another nugget. Remember the first time you asked her about the OM? Remember how she reacted? She laughed at you and said "I knew you were gonna ask me that". WTF!!!!
> 
> Another one. So was she lying when she said that they were working on a case together and that's why they were having "lunch"?
> 
> Many times she has had the opportunity to confess. She's failed everytime.


Here's another crater in the story...
2/3 months had passed by then since she started seeing the doctor.
A few days later there was the "park" lunch.
She told you she didn't want to tell you about her medical condition until she knew something about it.

It looks like she knew enough to tell the OM and have him console her about it 

but not enough to tell you, yet?


----------



## Dyokemm

"no, i still have doubts but many things she said have sense."

Of course they do Francesco.

When cheaters gaslight and TT, they always come up with a story that SOUNDS plausible....it has to since the object of gaslighting/TT is to make you think you have the truth and do not keep digging into what is really going on. 

And I am not saying she is a WW for sure, just that YOU don't really know if she is yet as part of her story is WAY OFF. 

You still need to keep investigating IMO.

And now that your suspicions are at least partially out in the open...quickly make contact with OM's W.

She is part of the story you have been given....and a brief conversation with her about EVERYTHING you have discovered should quickly reveal if their is something off with the story.

For instance, that there has only been ONE visit but they have been gone several times now...also her reaction to the hand-holding and cheek rubbing might clue you into whether he has a history of A's.

At the very least, OM will know the jig is up on whatever is going on or whatever he is planning after you talk to his W.


----------



## Q tip

Yeswecan said:


> Something to think about.
> 
> *Honestly, your W has a lot of explaining to do, Francesco. This is really starting to stink the high Heavens. *


Assume it's all honest. But change one thing. That Francesco knows all about this from day one.

And she calls Francesco...

"Oh, by the way dear, I'm having another man take me for doctors appointments. He's so nice and concerned over my personal ladies problems. He's taken me to lunch, I know you caught me and all, but he cares so much about my health. 

But later at yet another lunch, When I shared my deepest feminine feelings, he gently wipes the tears from my face saying I am so beautiful that there is no reason you would leave me. He is soooo sweet. He also,held my hand so gently. Just like you do. He knows me and us so well. 

Anyway, I forget to tell you about the test results. I told OM I'll be on the pill. But since I think your seeing us enjoying company together that we felt I should tell you to reduce and guilt I have and suspicions you may have built up since we were on the trip. I was thinking about what the OM told be that I was so beautiful that I wanted to ask you about it too..."


It ain't right in my mind. No way she would do any of this in front of Francesco, but has no issues doing it behind his back.


----------



## turnera

You can contact the OM's wife as a concerned spouse of a person her husband might be cheating with, not as a patient's spouse.

Let me ask you something, please be honest: Have you had problems in the past with communication? Has she shown a lack of willingness, or a fear, of being honest with you over other things? Are you overly critical? Do you have an anger problem? Have there been any other problems in the marriage?


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> no, sorry i didn't explane correctly. She should start to take the pill, she still hasn't. OMW had written her the receipt for them


I wonder, when your W FIRST started seeing OMs wife. Was it only recently? Was this the first series of appointments? Has she seen her earlier last year and maybe even before...?

What does OMW think about her H dragging in women from everywhere...? Is she concerned? Is it just good business? Is he really married to her? Just wow...


----------



## convert

Q tip said:


> Francesco, read the PUA post earlier again.
> 
> He's been nicing and friending her for months behind your back. She may be innocent, just like he likes them. Married ones don't talk. Your W certainly didn't.
> 
> She's going on the pill? And it was their very own secret?
> 
> Wake up. *Forbid her to ever see that doctor or OM ever*. You're playing with fire being the nice guy. Women have no respect for nice guys (salmon) especially when exciting sharks are in the water.
> 
> She's 40. Women start thinking at that age. The book MMSLP speaks to this. (I do hope you're reading it).
> 
> If she did not have a pvssy, OM would not be bothering her. Does he help guys out with prostate issues? Nope. Why? No pvssy involved...
> 
> So get in there and c0ckblock, before your W does.


I agree find another doctor this is too close to OM


----------



## italianjob

Assuming this story is mostly true:

This might not be an affair yet, and maybe she really just was directed to OM by someone who knew OMW was a gynecologist.

Still:
- Innocent or not, confiding her health issues (and not common health issues, reproductive health issues) to another man and not to you is in no way acceptable behavior.

- It sounds like she feels she HAS to spend time with the OM, be nice to him and let him be close to her, after all he was so supportive, helpful and caring. This sounds like a classic PUA "soft emotional blackmail" and would explain all the secrecy toward you, she knew it was wrong but she felt she owed him.
The only thing that doesn't fit in with this is the gynecologist being OMW, that would sound to be too close to comfort for him to be trying to have a pass at your wife unless:
. the gynecologist is not OMW (that's why I told you to verify)
. he just can't resist a good pick up no matter the risk, or he feels so self assured he doesn't care.
. they're swingers or into threesomes (this migth be too far fetched, actually, sorry for bringing it up)


----------



## Q tip

A PUA sharing secrets from the Wife's Husband is just another bond of trust he builds ever so slowly. 

They are innocent enough if found out, but still builds that bond of trust and confidence in each other. This is nowhere even finished. If he smells trouble, he will run. If he's still sticking around even now... He thinks he's good and will slowly escalate. 

Instigate, escalate isolate. Remember? He's done all three already. Small steps. Not getting any negative feedback from her or H. And if he does, he's innocent enough and will just move on. Pretend being offended and have his snappy excuse.

What an insult. 

Just too many friggin coincidences going on here.


----------



## tom67

Francesco
It's time to contact his wife.
Time to nip this now.
I hope she is telling the truth but you should verify.


----------



## convert

italianjob said:


> Assuming this story is mostly true:
> 
> This might not be an affair yet, and maybe she really just was directed to OM by someone who knew OMW was a gynecologist.
> 
> Still:
> - Innocent or not, confiding her health issues (and not common health issues, reproductive health issues) to another man and not to you is in no way acceptable behavior.
> 
> - It sounds like she feels she HAS to spend time with the OM, be nice to him and let him be close to her, after all he was so supportive, helpful and caring. This sounds like a classic PUA "soft emotional blackmail" and would explain all the secrecy toward you, she knew it was wrong but she felt she owed him.
> The only thing that doesn't fit in with this is the gynecologist being OMW, that would sound to be too close to comfort for him to be trying to have a pass at your wife *unless*:
> .* the gynecologist is not OMW (that's why I told you to verify)*
> . he just can't resist a good pick up no matter the risk, or he feels so self assured he doesn't care.
> . *they're swingers or into threesomes (this migth be too far fetched, actually, sorry for bringing it up)*


yea the OM w being a doctor should be easy enough to check.

the swingers or threesome angle may not to far fetched we here all kinds of different scenarios here


----------



## G.J.

My wife just made that throw away comment

"There swingers":scratchhead:


----------



## G.J.

Francesco how did all this new information from her come out,you asking her etc

Blow by blow of the discussion
would be helpfull for us to understand how the conersation flowed


----------



## tom67

G.J. said:


> Francesco how did all this new information from her come out,you asking her etc
> 
> Blow by blow of the discussion
> would be helpfull for us to understand how the conersation flowed


You have to ask yourself why you have to inquire instead of her volunteering this info.:scratchhead:
It doesn't add up.


----------



## Tobyboy

tom67 said:


> You have to ask yourself why you have to inquire instead of her volunteering this info.:scratchhead:
> It doesn't add up.


Nope! It just doesn't. 

I think Francesco is starting to realized that's he's been lied to and gaslighted since he first suspected. 

But, you have to admit. She's damned good at it!!


----------



## adriana

Francesco said:


> no, i still have doubts but many things she said have sense.



Francesco, I am sorry but your wife has been snowing you so hard that if she doesn't stop soon it can impact a wider area than any blizzard in recorded history. Things simply don't add up in this story. You need to wake up and face the reality regardless of how ugly it may be.


----------



## italianjob

Tobyboy said:


> Nope! It just doesn't.
> 
> I think Francesco is starting to realized that's he's been lied to and gaslighted since he first suspected.
> 
> But, you have to admit. She's damned good at it!!


I have a hunch that the OM is a very good PUA.

This web is very tangled, Francesco needs to start moving but he has to be careful, if this is still not an affair, this looks like it's all designed to make him look like the bad guy.

If he makes the wrong move he might end up having a big fight with his wife so then OM would have it easier.

Or he might end up looking paranoid, while the OM is an innocent victim.


----------



## G.J.

Tobyboy said:


> Nope! It just doesn't.
> 
> I think Francesco is starting to realized that's he's been lied to and gaslighted since he first suspected.
> 
> But, you have to admit. She's damned good at it!!


Hopefully francesco lets us know the flow of the Conversation with her

Also francescos friends thoughts at this stage after he has read our comments


----------



## Dyokemm

"You can contact the OM's wife as a concerned spouse of a person her husband might be cheating with, not as a patient's spouse."

EXACTLY.

I would bet money she might have a totally different view on what is really going on after she finds out about the hand-holding and cheek-rubbing too.

She probably just thinks her H is being a nice friend to his co-worker....OR she might already be totally suspicious of his willingness to 'help' out a co-worker based on OM's past behavior.

Talk to OMW ASAP!


----------



## italianjob

G.J. said:


> My wife just made that throw away comment
> 
> "There swingers":scratchhead:


She's Italian, right? 

A very famous Italian politician used to say:
"A pensare male si fa peccato, ma spesso ci si azzecca"
which means, more or less:
"Thinking Ill of people is a sin, but it's often spot on".

I guess we Italians tend to think along those lines...


----------



## Q tip

I wonder - did OM sit in the waiting area or sit in with the appointment. He's so caring you know and has so much background information. Even more than Francesco has.

Why do I still think he's working her. It just bothers me. Perhaps it's this tedious typing and comprehending. Maybe TAM should set up Skype conferencing. 

Francesco could be absolutely correct and it's nothing. Maybe it's just the medium we're struggling with.


----------



## Yeswecan

Q tip said:


> Assume it's all honest. But change one thing. That Francesco knows all about this from day one.
> 
> And she calls Francesco...
> 
> "Oh, by the way dear, I'm having another man take me for doctors appointments. He's so nice and concerned over my personal ladies problems. He's taken me to lunch, I know you caught me and all, but he cares so much about my health.
> 
> But later at yet another lunch, When I shared my deepest feminine feelings, he gently wipes the tears from my face saying I am so beautiful that there is no reason you would leave me. He is soooo sweet. He also,held my hand so gently. Just like you do. He knows me and us so well.
> 
> Anyway, I forget to tell you about the test results. I told OM I'll be on the pill. But since I think your seeing us enjoying company together that we felt I should tell you to reduce and guilt I have and suspicions you may have built up since we were on the trip. I was thinking about what the OM told be that I was so beautiful that I wanted to ask you about it too..."
> 
> 
> It ain't right in my mind. No way she would do any of this in front of Francesco, but has no issues doing it behind his back.


This conversation would go over like a lead balloon. When it is written out like this it drives the point home that something is rotten in Denmark.


----------



## Dyokemm

"Francesco could be absolutely correct and it's nothing. Maybe it's just the medium we're struggling with."

Yes...you are absolutely correct Q tip.....there is a possibility everything is OK and Francesco is right to feel relieved.

But I've read enough infidelity posts to know one thing for certain.

BS always WANT to believe that they have the truth and their WS is being honest and transparent.

Unfortunately, the number of times this turns out to be true compared to the number of times it is just the tip of the iceberg isn't even close after you have read hundreds of these situations.

I think this is the primary reason why so many posters always tell a BS to go with their gut in these situations....there is an intuitive sense that any person has when interacting with someone they know so well...they can feel when something is off or seems fishy.

And rarely is the gut wrong.

And Francesco has already said he still has doubts himself AFTER hearing what he calls her plausible explanations.

He wants to believe her...but his gut is screaming.

We detached posters saw almost immediately that there are major holes and inconsistencies in the story...and TOTALLY inappropriate behavior on his W's part regardless.

I think Francesco sees it too....but it takes a little bit of time for the gut to overrule the heart's desire to believe based on love and faith.

Not to say he is definitely wrong....but he sure needs to look into this further.


----------



## G.J.

Francesco said:


> the visits from october till the end of november were only 3 times. 1 in october and 2 in november


What has she been doing since then with him as you saw her twice after - once in mid dec and next in jan ?

Why the touching in mid jan 

Why is she not taking the pill since she has a prescription

Does the pratice have an apartment or bedroom


----------



## convert

found out if the doctors office is closed one day a week and see if those days match up with her appts.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Francesco, I don't want to be harsh, but the only person that believes that story is you. Nobody who has read this thread believes it. I think you believe it because you want it to be true, but it would be in your best interest to see things as they are rather than grasping at such a weak thread to hang your marriage on.

There are too many inconsistencies with this story. I think you got this story as a way for her to help explain why she's suddenly on the pill in case you find them.


----------



## bfree

This has been going on for 5 months? It took that long for a diagnosis? And she still hasn't started her prescription? Is the medical profession in Italy that bad? Something's definitely not right with all of this.


----------



## Q tip

I think OM has a prescription in mind...

The rest of the info just does not matter.

If there's attention to all this, OM will run. If not, he'll continue working his victim. Even with Francesco on the trail.

No man. *And I mean no man* takes my wife to any doctor. And a Gyno? He'd be seen by a proctologist real fast. Why? My boot up his arse!

This is absolute pure Bull Sh!t


----------



## Chaparral

The question is why she has lied about different things and still is.

His wife being a gynecologist doesn't mean he isn't having an affair with your wife. He could be just that bold.

Your wife wasn't already an the pill? How do you keep from getting her pregnant?

Doesn't she already have her own gynecologist? Doesn't she have a doctor to ask about these things?

She also had intimate lunches with him besides going out in the car.

As soon as one thing gets knocked down another pops up.


----------



## Q tip

May as well get breast implants too. I'm sure OM knows a doctor. Sore back? OM knows what to do. Kids sick? well, OM said...
Got tears? OM makes it all better. Pre-menopause issues, OM takes care of it. Hungry? OM knows a nice place...

OM OM OM. OM. I think the W has all that in her mind.

Seen together? Get caught? OM says to say working on a case... OM got all the answers.

I mean, well... Whatever.


----------



## Yeswecan

That's the other question. My W has seen the same gyno for 25 years. Francesco....why not her regular gyno?


----------



## tom67

Q tip said:


> I think OM has a prescription in mind...
> 
> The rest of the info just does not matter.
> 
> If there's attention to all this, OM will run. If not, he'll continue working his victim. Even with Francesco on the trail.
> 
> No man. *And I mean no man* takes my wife to any doctor. And a Gyno? He'd be seen by a proctologist real fast. Why? My boot up his arse!
> 
> This is absolute pure Bull Sh!t


Thinking of that Seinfeld episode "@ssman":lol:
Francesco PM Italian job and get his phone# he's in your country.
Dude come on contact his wife or have your cop buddy do it.
Do something!!!


----------



## to much drama

Francesco,

Lets make this easy from him. He has alot on his plate with wife and no his Dad and other family members they see on the weekends.

Easy question for you Francesco..................

Are you ok with your wife talking about her problems with another man?
She did not tell you for months now. She did not want to talk to you about her problems.

So, your ok with her doing this?


----------



## tom67

to much drama said:


> Francesco,
> 
> Lets make this easy from him. He has alot on his plate with wife and no his Dad and other family members they see on the weekends.
> 
> Easy question for you Francesco..................
> 
> Are you ok with your wife talking about her problems with another man?
> She did not tell you for months now. She did not want to talk to you about her problems.
> 
> So, your ok with her doing this?


Francesco imo this IS A FULL BLOWN EA at least.
Your marriage will NOT last if she works with him.
Okay you'll read all this in a few hours.
Peace brother.


----------



## to much drama

Francesco 

She did not come to you and tell you what has been going on.
You told us the someone saw her at that building and then she told you a story of whats has been going on.

If you did not say this to her, she still would not have told you what has been going on.

she should have told you at the very beginning. Or when you caught them together what 2 times? she should have said something then.
Or you should have said something to both of them that first day. But you didn't and they didn't say anything. You all pushed it under the rug and walked away. Well they walked away and you were let alone and them together.

I have been a lurker here for awhile and never replied, but this I just had to log in and say something.

She is sweet talking you, crying and making you feel guilty. don't feel guilty. WEEEEEE all have the gut feeling and including you Francesco. Something is wrong with all of this!!

No matter what, she comes to her husband if she is scared and afraid of her health. We are talking months not hours!!


----------



## tom67

Here sad story but he was decisive you'll read my reply after his latest update
You need to be Space now
SurvivingInfidelity.com - Thought we had a good marriage
Sad
Time for consequences.


----------



## Dyokemm

Exactly tom67,

That guy is almost a textbook example of how to form a strategy and battle plan and then carry it out.

He is dead set on D (something I agree with 100% when it comes to infidelity), BUT he could have R immediately if he wanted it because of the steps he took.

He has reduced his WW to a blubbering mess begging for any chance at R....and NOT because of any cruelty or vindictiveness in case any wonder.

IMO, he has reached this state because he instantly destroyed through his exposure and action the one thing that I think a majority of WS secretly believe and count on during their A's....that if caught the love and desperation of their BS will allow them the option of choice...in other words the opportunity to Plan B the BS.

SpaceGhost (his name) annihilated this option from the get go...and now his WW feels her entire world crumbling around her...she is totally desperate to have ANY chance to save her M.

All BS, even those who want to save the M and R with their WS, need to take a look at how this is playing out.

If there was ever proof that the best path of a BS is severe rejection and immediate consequences, this is it.

Someone needs to post a link to a horror story where the BS tries the stupid, futile, and humiliating 'pick me' dance for a quick comparison for BSs to look at.


----------



## tom67

Dyokemm said:


> Exactly tom67,
> 
> That guy is almost a textbook example of how to form a strategy and battle plan and then carry it out.
> 
> He is dead set on D (something I agree with 100% when it comes to infidelity), BUT he could have R immediately if he wanted it because of the steps he took.
> 
> He has reduced his WW to a blubbering mess begging for any chance at R....and NOT because of any cruelty or vindictiveness in case any wonder.
> 
> IMO, he has reached this state because he instantly destroyed through his exposure and action the one thing that I think a majority of WS secretly believe and count on during their A's....that if caught the love and desperation of their BS will allow them the option of choice...in other words the opportunity to Plan B the BS.
> 
> SpaceGhost (his name) annihilated this option from the get go...and now his WW feels her entire world crumbling around her...she is totally desperate to have ANY chance to save her M.
> 
> All BS, even those who want to save the M and R with their WS, need to take a look at how this is playing out.
> 
> If there was ever proof that the best path of a BS is severe rejection and immediate consequences, this is it.
> 
> Someone needs to post a link to a horror story where the BS tries the stupid, futile, and humiliating 'pick me' dance for a quick comparison for BSs to look at.


And I give him even more credit because as a child his mother left him.
Yet he had his resolve.


----------



## Dyokemm

Yep.

I posted on his thread that my paternal grandmother did the same thing to my dad when he was 2.

Didn't reach out to him again til he was in his 20's.

He never forgave her.

I admire my dad a lot for his views on infidelity...he won't tolerate that sh*t at all.

My mother's family, on the other hand, are serial rugsweepers...and there are huge issues with infidelity across generations in that part of my family.

But my mom never cheated....one of the few on that side of the family.

I often wonder if the fact that she watched my dad coldly and firmly cut off any attempt at reconnection by his mother (even on her deathbed) helped her to avoid temptation because she saw FIRST HAND how relentless my dad was in rejecting reconciliation.

I know SpaceGhost's WW heard him say his past with his mother made cheating an instant dealbreaker (and he obviously meant it)....but I wonder if it might have been different if she had WITNESSED, as my mom did when I was a young kid through my early teens, him coldly rejecting any contact with his mom.

I suspect IMAGES have a far more profound impact than WORDS.


----------



## Q tip

TJ


----------



## Dyokemm

Q tip.

True enough friend.

I apologize.

I do think Francesco, or any BS actually, would really benefit from reading the thread on the link tom67 posted though.


----------



## Q tip

Dyokemm said:


> Q tip.
> 
> True enough friend.
> 
> I apologize.
> 
> I do think Francesco, or any BS actually, would really benefit from reading the thread on the link tom67 posted though.


And I hope he reads it too. Lessons all around. And, sorry Francesco, I hope things work out. Right now, you don't have the entire story.


----------



## Decorum

Francesco,

Jealously is the fear of displacement. Fear is a basic motivation to protect something valuable, it has it’s time and place. You have nothing to feel bad about in trying to protect your marriage when there was secrecy, intentional non-communication, and unusual private activity with another male.

Your wife put you in a position to wonder what was going on. She did it out of fear; apparently she was afraid that you would see her differently if she became a non-fertile female.

She did express that to you when she asked you if you would leave her, bless her heart.

She will feel bad you thought she might be having an affair, tell her that something did not add up and it brought out the lion in you, that you pity any man who would try to move in on your lioness! (Nuzzle and bite her neck when you say that; wink wink)

In your mind and heart you did not accept the doubt but on a primitive level you had to answer the drive to mate guard.

Tell her that you accept her concern and fear about how you "might" feel if she were in Menopause and in one sense it makes you feel like she really treasures you, but you hope the two of you can handle something like this differently in the future because you want her to feel safe and confident in your love. Tell her you look forward to going through what ever life brings you way together.

Tell her that you appreciate the help OM gave her, but she opened a door and allowed him in a place that no other men have had beside you, a place that existed because you were excluded. Tell her that you would not be comfortable if it stayed that way, and ask “will you agree not to continue in private meetings and conversations with him? (and to let you know if that should happen?)” and to keep the conversations on a less intimate and personal level?

You don’t want to look controlling, nor do you want to cause a reaction, you know your wife so use good judgment here, but I think you can say how you feel.

Others may weigh in here, but I wanted to give you some things to think about.

It sounds like you have a good sense of your wife and relationship, so stay alert regarding Om, your wife may not be looking for anything more but some men would try to escalate it from here.

She should let you know if so and you should keep your eyes open. Is there more to the story? It will come out if so, rebuild here and connect with her, its the best course for now.

I wish you two well, take care!


----------



## italianjob

Yeah, being ashamed to let you know she was having these problems is understandable. It's a delicate moment for women and it came a bit early for her, so maybe she somehow feels like less of a woman for it.
OK, maybe the OM was involved just because his wife is a gyno.

Still:
- letting OM being her supporter in every phase of this ordeal is ABSOLUTELY inappropriate. His role should have been limited to fixing the appointment and it is already some kind of a stretch to deem acceptable driving her there the first time.
- to keep this a secret to Francesco for almost 5 months and what should be at least 6 appointments* is far Beyond inacceptable, especially considering that details of these matters where shared in the meantime with another man.
- the lunch in the park still has no acceptable explanation

* 3 between October and November, 2 witnessed by Francesco and the one where Francesco's friend followed them.
Assuming, obviously, that both times Francesco saw them they had been to see the gyno (yeah, it sounds like he should buy lottery tickets)


Francesco, look at the evidence you have (receipts etc.), make the obvious verifications (talk to the doctor, verify she's the OMW), think back on the conversations you had with your wife about this and how her answers were worded, talk to your friend about your doubts if you feel it may do good.

There might be more to this, maybe not, but there might be.
I mean:
- 4-5 months and 6 visits and she only tells you because you confront her? What was she trying to do, going through the Whole menopause process keeping it a secret from you?
- Another man sharing intimate details of your wife you were not allowed access to?

More or not, anyway, there is a lot of very inappropriate behavior here, and in the end you should demand a very detailed explanation of such behavior, because her excuses for it are just insufficient IMO. You should also make it very clear that more of this kind of behavior will not be tolerated IMO.


----------



## Chaparral

Do gynos perform abortions? None of this makes sense. And now start taking birth control pills. This new story doesn't sound any more reasonable than going to lunch for business reasons. 

Sure this story might be true. But why lie and why so many lunch dates? 

At first I was relieved at the gyno explanation, the more I recall everything that happened, the tears seem to be crocodile tears.


----------



## italianjob

Chaparral said:


> Do gynos perform abortions? None of this makes sense. And now start taking birth control pills. This new story doesn't sound any more reasonable than going to lunch for business reasons.
> 
> Sure this story might be true. But why lie and why so many lunch dates?
> 
> At first I was relieved at the gyno explanation, the more I recall everything that happened, the tears seem to be crocodile tears.


Specialists usually give a summary sheet at the end of the visit stating what was the purpose and the outcome, so there should be documentation for Francesco to see.


----------



## Tobyboy

Another observation. If she's starting early menopause, like she claims, needs hormones(the pill), where are all the symtoms? 

From what Francesco written, she been acting normal!!!!

Doesn't sound like a hormonal woman in the early stages of menopause. 

Also, wonder how her other condition is coming along? Something intestinal? 

*ETA:
Why is it looking more and more that Francesco wife is the pursuer in this.....whatever it is?*


----------



## ConanHub

Yeah.....sure.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Francesco

i need to clarify a bit.
My wife has a female coworker that she knows from years, she also has the celiac disease just like my wife. Back in October my wife first talked with her coworker complaining about the way she was feeling and the suspects she was having, so this friend of hers told her that OM has a wife that is a gynecologist and that she is pretty good at her job. She has a private studio with another doctor. 
At that point my wife asked OM if she can have the cell. number. OM told her that he was heading at her office and that if she wanted she can meet her personaly and talk, and my wife agreed. This was the first time in October. My wife said that they only talked to know each other better, and that my wife would eventually contact her for an appointment. The OMW has working hours that dont match with my wife's hours, and the OMW said that she would arrange the appointments when she was in the studio and closed to public. 
The first appointment was in mid November and she went there with the female coworker, the second was by the end of november and that time she went with OM cause he was to meet OMW for other reasons.
The 3 appointment was in December when i saw her get out of his car (white face). The 4 appointment was after i saw them again almost 2 weeks after.

The bench story:
When my friend got involved and caught them on the bench (not in a park but on a city bench) I am guessing it was when she had recieved the news of confirmation for menopause that OM handed to her from the OMW. When i will ask for further info this episode will be resolved also.

Then the last appointment was what the OMW told her to do for the therapy, including the pill and witch brand to start with.

I appreciate every input i receive, and i must say that some of them are exactly my thought's, and as soon as the situation of my father calm's down i will tell her what i did and how i was feeling, and in this part also to set some boundaries.
questions that need an answer are: 
Is OM being only super nice or is he snaky?
Is my wife tempted for the attentions?
did they have a moment of weakness?

Here is where i stand for know


----------



## Francesco

As for keeping all a secret from me, she just justified it saying that untill she wasn't sure she did not want to get me upset... or worse. Thats why she asked me if i would ever change my feelings for her that night time ago.

but still, it's something that i didn't appreciate.


----------



## italianjob

Yeah, the story is still more or less as it was understood here.

The problems are those already pointed out by the posters here.

A bit of shame at the beginning might be a good justification, but after so many other people were involved there is no sense in not telling you anything. Most of all there is no sense in another man knowing this kind of things about her before you did. You should someday ask her if she really thought it was allright that some other men knew about her intimate health conditions before you did. 

Also, when did she plan to tell you if not confronted?

Can you verify if the gyno is really OMW?

Did your policeman friend express any opinion about all of this?


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> Yeah, the story is still more or less as it was understood here.
> 
> The problems are those already pointed out by the posters here.
> 
> A bit of shame at the beginning might be a good justification, but after so many other people were involved there is no sense in not telling you anything. Most of all there is no sense in another man knowing this kind of things about her before you did. You should someday ask her if she really thought it was allright that some other men knew about her intimate health conditions before you did.
> 
> Also, when did she plan to tell you if not confronted?
> 
> Can you verify if the gyno is really OMW?
> 
> Did your policeman friend express any opinion about all of this?


caro amico mio,
she was going to tell me after our comeback from the weekend at my parents town, but then Sunday my dad started having problems.
Yes OMW is the gyno for sure
my friend tends to beleive the story, but thinks that it was handled the wrong way


----------



## Tobyboy

The OM can't hand her those results. It has to come from the Dr.!!!!

Think Francesco!!


----------



## Francesco

Tobyboy said:


> The OM can't hand her those results. It has to come from the Dr.!!!!
> 
> Think Francesco!!


 i'm just guessing.... maybe omw called and had and he handed them in a closed envolope... like i said, just guessing


----------



## italianjob

Francesco said:


> caro amico mio,
> she was going to tell me after our comeback from the weekend at my parents town, but then Sunday my dad started having problems.
> Yes OMW is the gyno for sure
> my friend tends to beleive the story, but thinks that it was handled the wrong way


Ciao Fra,
The problem with this story is that all this secrecy is carried on for too long.
My personal take is that there is more to it. I don't think they already did something, and frankly I don't really think they have really expressed anything to each other, but they are "playing around" in a Dangerous way... The OM sounds like a player (a pick up artist) and your wife doesn't seem to dislike the attention. If she really didn't think she had nothing to hide she would have explained everything to you the first time you saw them together, that's my opinion. I think she wanted to keep it a secret to play some more and see what would happen.


----------



## bfree

Francesco said:


> i need to clarify a bit.
> My wife has a female coworker that she knows from years, she also has the celiac disease just like my wife. Back in October my wife first talked with her coworker complaining about the way she was feeling and the suspects she was having, so this friend of hers told her that OM has a wife that is a gynecologist and that she is pretty good at her job. She has a private studio with another doctor.
> At that point my wife asked OM if she can have the cell. number. OM told her that he was heading at her office and that if she wanted she can meet her personaly and talk, and my wife agreed. This was the first time in October. My wife said that they only talked to know each other better, and that my wife would eventually contact her for an appointment. The OMW has working hours that dont match with my wife's hours, and the OMW said that she would arrange the appointments when she was in the studio and closed to public.
> The first appointment was in mid November and she went there with the female coworker, the second was by the end of november and that time she went with OM cause he was to meet OMW for other reasons.
> The 3 appointment was in December when i saw her get out of his car (white face). The 4 appointment was after i saw them again almost 2 weeks after.
> 
> The bench story:
> When my friend got involved and caught them on the bench (not in a park but on a city bench) I am guessing it was when she had recieved the news of confirmation for menopause that OM handed to her from the OMW. When i will ask for further info this episode will be resolved also.
> 
> Then the last appointment was what the OMW told her to do for the therapy, including the pill and witch brand to start with.
> 
> I appreciate every input i receive, and i must say that some of them are exactly my thought's, and as soon as the situation of my father calm's down i will tell her what i did and how i was feeling, and in this part also to set some boundaries.
> questions that need an answer are:
> Is OM being only super nice or is he snaky?
> Is my wife tempted for the attentions?
> did they have a moment of weakness?
> 
> Here is where i stand for know


Sorry, it still doesn't seem right to me. Too much explanation needed for a simple medical issue that ALL women have at some point. Why couldn't she go to her regular gyno who obviously must know her? Also it seems awfully convenient that both times she went with this OM to appointments it was coincidentally when you showed up. It sounds like a made up story meant to match up with only those facts that you have.


----------



## Tobyboy

Francesco, have you noticed any menopause symptoms from your wife?


----------



## italianjob

The element that makes me think this is a story that has dark corners and secrets in it but it's not made up, is the presence of OMW as the doctor. From what Francesco explain she sounds like a renown professional (remember to check her reputation in the field, Francesco) who wouldn't jeopardize her trade to help her husband get some. 

My raccomandation is to check every bit of medical information, receipts, etc. and make sure they match up with what you know.

I also suggest not to tell anything to her about your surveillance for quite some time. You might need to do it again. make up a story for the bench episode, if you want to ask her about it.


----------



## Tobyboy

Everything points to Francesco wife being the pursuer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Yeswecan

Francesco, even if everything you have been told is 100% correct it still does not explain why your W feels it was something you do not need to know. Seriously, why the running around behind your back? Why not her regular gyno? Why is OM delivering menopause news to your W? These need answers!!!!! This not how married people with kids handle medical issues. I'll throw it out there....it is as if two teenagers attempting to hide a pregnancy. None of this passes the sniff test....


----------



## Q tip

OM shared some paperwork from doctor confirming menopause??? 

You defend him as there are health secrecy laws? From husbands but OM are exempt from these laws?

OM is involved. He knew everything about your W problems and was there for her. Wiping her tears. Your W keeps secrets from you. She shares with OM??? And you defend... Sorry. I don't accept this. Does OM bring her her pills to take too? Quick trips out and fetches them? You tolerate her so well. You share her with OM.

This is not right. Have OM followed. I wonder if OMW was there during all these appointments. Confirm all this. No man takes my W to a Gyno. Never! Secrecy from you? Unless you beat her, why the secrets.

Forbid her to ever see OM. At some point you must be the Husband again. I mean, he knew about her pill before you did. Her secrets from you not him. He's taken over H duties. I wonder who will test the pills work... She's has a H at home and. A Closer, secrets sharing H at work. 

You need to confirm with OMW every visit. Separately, you need wife to confirm every visit. Compare these visits.

Ask W how long she's been dating OM. How many times she sees him. Before the doctor visits too. These are also her secrets. You may never know.

She feels safe and secure and the body language between them and her white face seeing you. 

Why wouldn't she give him a white face because of offer to see doctor WITH him along.

Confirm all treatment details with the doctor. Tell doctor you suspect what you suspect. Get legal permission, or just ask OM as the law clearly includes him and the law excludes you!

Other ladies also get rides to lunch and doctors visits from him too??? Does he wipe all tears away. He is so amazing. What an OM. I'm starting to fall for him myself!

These are her lies and deception. It is a lie for her to not tell you things. Lies by omission.

Does that OMW perform abortions?


----------



## G.J.

Yeswecan said:


> Francesco, even if everything you have been told is 100% correct it still does not explain why your W feels it was something you do not need to know. Seriously, why the running around behind your back? Why not her regular gyno? Why is OM delivering menopause news to your W? These need answers!!!!! This not how married people with kids handle medical issues. I'll throw it out there....it is as if two teenagers *attempting to hide a pregnancy*. None of this passes the sniff test....


I thought that yesterday but was too inhibited to post it


----------



## G.J.

I really do hope you carry on surveillance for a few weeks


----------



## Chaparral

So she said all this was a reason to lie to you? Even after she had to know you suspected her and warned her about leaving her if she cheated.

Too many bare face lies. Too many coincidences. Too many lunches with other man that weren't possible appointments. Too many tender moments.

Its too much to believe.

Do not tell her you had her followed. She was, at best, keeping secrets from you and sharing them with another man..................for months, if not longer.

Keep tracking her, ask your friend about a pen var, see if she still goes to lunch with the om.


----------



## Q tip

Agree. Keep up the surveillance. Something's up. They will stop for a while, then when it's clear, start again. She has so many other secrets to share with OM... So many lunches and Gyno appointments to look forward to. 

OM did decide for them to tell you she's on the pill.

5 months seeing OM and OMW...? WTF. No wonder they're so close.

It's EA and or PA.

Look, you guys spend all your weekends with family issues, she needs a close EA partner to share her inner most feelings and thoughts. Someone who is there for her to listen, bring menopause paperwork, to share and cry together and wipe her tears. That's not you. Her actions have proven this out.

Her words say one thing, her actions say another.


----------



## italianjob

If this was a completely made up story, ready to go with made up (or regularly gotten) receipts and documents, especially fabricated to cover an affair, Francesco's wife would have used it as soon as Francesco saw them together the first time. Why play it mysterious and raise more suspicions, when you have expressely worked to make up a cover story? You're caught, you use it.

That's why I think the story is mostly true. It's probably completely true and hides nothin else until the first appointment. The coworker directing her to the OM who takes her to his W the doctor and the first real appointment, when she goes there with her female friend. You might have some complaint about OM taking her there the first time, but when you ask for a favor you don't get too picky.

I think something happens in the relationship between Francesco's wife and the OM between the first and second appointment. From then on she Always goes to the doctor with him, whereas the first time she had correctly asked a female friend. When Francesco catches them TWO times she doesn't use the story. I think she doesn't because it wasn't fabricated and she is afraid that Francesco will see the holes in it. More, I think they're playing and she wants to see where it goes, but knows that if Francesco knows about the gyno, he will want to take over and be the one who takes her there.

When They are caught for the third time, she understands she can't take it any further and comes out with the story.

More or less.


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> i'm just guessing.... maybe omw called and had and he handed them in a closed envolope... like i said, just guessing


Think! Listen to what you say. OM and your W knows everything. They leave you guessing...

Is this an affair. You seem to be the odd one out.

Think.

OM knows of her issues about possibly becoming infertile and the changes in her life. He never advised her to talk to you. He has replaced you in that capacity now. Your W actions prove this. Her words merely excuse and explain it away. But the actions are the part you watch.

Her actions are proof of your replacement. She has a new intimate partner in the OM. Secrets from you, confiding in him. She's done this.

Fix it now. You have got to stop it. If not, when.


----------



## Yeswecan

G.J. said:


> I thought that yesterday but was too inhibited to post it


I had to throw it out there. The secrecy leads me to believe there is more than what is being told. There is simply no good explanation for the secrecy.


----------



## Q tip

Yeswecan said:


> I had to throw it out there. The secrecy leads me to believe there is more than what is being told. There is simply no good explanation for the secrecy.


Oh? I can think of many reasons for secrecy. None of them good. Did she miss a few periods and get concerned? Were these tears of relief she was not pregnant?


----------



## Yeswecan

Q tip said:


> Oh? I can think of many reasons for secrecy. None of them good. Did she miss a few periods and get concerned? Were these tears of relief she was not pregnant?


Hence the reason I threw it out there. However, why go to OM wife who is a gyno? I have heard of strange things but this would beat all.


----------



## Q tip

Yeswecan said:


> Hence the reason I threw it out there. However, why go to OM wife who is a gyno? I have heard of strange things but this would beat all.


Seems OM has experience in these matters...


----------



## italianjob

Anything is possible, but hiding or researching an unwanted pregnancy going to OMW? Sounds a bit too much...


----------



## Q tip

italianjob said:


> Anything is possible, but hiding or researching an unwanted pregnancy going to OMW? Sounds a bit too much...


Yep, but to Francesco, it's all secrets. OM and Francesco Wife know all. Something wrong with that. Not sure what... Oh. I do know what's wrong with that!


----------



## G.J.

Hope your on surveillance today or your friend

Well no real excuse now if they go out for dinner just the two of them or to the Office block


----------



## Chaparral

italianjob said:


> Anything is possible, but hiding or researching an unwanted pregnancy going to OMW? Sounds a bit too much...


Every fact that comes out so far is too much. The problem is they don't fit together. The only thing proven so far is wife lied to keep something secret. Wife often goes to lunch with other man. Wife is very close to other man. No action has taken place to explain this, only words. As in, she was lying but now you can believe her.


----------



## Chaparral

Italian job, what does your wife say about this. I wish more women would check this out.

Everyone here wants this to be true. We may be too used to seeing the other shoe drop.


----------



## bfree

Chaparral said:


> Italian job, what does your wife say about this. I wish more women would check this out.
> 
> Everyone here wants this to be true. We may be too used to seeing the other shoe drop.


Because it almost always does.


----------



## turnera

Francesco said:


> The 3 appointment was in December when i saw her get out of his car (white face). The 4 appointment was after i saw them again almost 2 weeks after.
> 
> The bench story:
> When my friend got involved and caught them on the bench (not in a park but on a city bench) I am guessing it was when she had recieved the news of confirmation for menopause that OM handed to her from the OMW.


Ok, couple of things. I have NEVER heard of a person having to go to 3 separate appointments to learn about my menopause (omitting the first, 'meet and greet' appointment). Two, maybe. What, they didn't do the tests the first time? I went to one appointment, had the tests done, and got a phone call verifying.

Second, I have seriously never heard of a doctor having her _husband _tell her _patient _that the patient does indeed have menopause. This is just too wild to believe.


----------



## z_man

italianjob said:


> Anything is possible, but hiding or researching an unwanted pregnancy going to OMW? Sounds a bit too much...


If one let's their mind wander, any scenario seems possible. 

Like the OMW knows that her husband is a player, got some co-worker pregnant that if found out by all parties, would jeopardize his job, so let us take care of the problem off hours.

Not saying this is likely, but paranoia makes for interesting thoughts. Paranoia sets in when all the facts are not in hand.

The question I have; does Francesco's wife have a gyno of her own? Being female and having kids, she went to some gyno in the past. Once my wife found a gyno she was comfortable with, she would never go to different gyno for any reason outside of secrecy.


----------



## turnera

Francesco said:


> i'm just guessing.... maybe omw called and had and he handed them in a closed envolope... like i said, just guessing


WTH, how long ago have you had this conversation, Francesco? Days? Weeks? And you still haven't ASKED her this? Don't you guys talk? I think I asked you, do you two have trouble communicating? Do you get angry? Does she get angry?


----------



## italianjob

Chaparral said:


> Italian job, what does your wife say about this. I wish more women would check this out.
> 
> Everyone here wants this to be true. We may be too used to seeing the other shoe drop.


Wife says that she wouldn't be embarrassed to tell me, but if, for any reason she was, she would talk strictly with other women of these issues.

In this case she thinks she would have backed off when the female coworker suggested to talk to OM, says maybe she somehow was taken by surprise by OMs offer to take her there and couldn't find a way to avoid it gracefully.

She thinks that there is absolutely no way she would have gone to subsequent appointments with OM, and that there is no reason she wouldn't tell husband about medical issues at that point.

She thinks that still keepin it secret after Francesco saw them and inquired cannot have a legitimate motivation, in her opinion.


----------



## turnera

Q tip said:


> Oh? I can think of many reasons for secrecy. None of them good. Did she miss a few periods and get concerned? Were these tears of relief she was not pregnant?


Wouldn't that beat all, if OM might have got her pregnant, and they went together to have his wife test his lover for pregnancy, with her none the wiser.


----------



## convert

turnera said:


> Wouldn't that beat all, if OM might have got her pregnant, and they went together to have his wife test his lover for pregnancy, with her none the wiser.


I was thinking just that


----------



## italianjob

It's not actually incredibly strange if the doctor actually gave her husband a sealed envelope with the results to deliver to Francesco's wife. Here in Italy we sometimes do get a bit easy going with formalities...
What is strange is that she shared the results with OM...

On the good side the fact that an envelope existed confirms that her appointments and treatments are documented, so Francesco just has to take a look at them to rule out the pregnancy hypothesis.


----------



## drifting on

Francesco

Hmmm... Lot has gone on. You have so much information to process. I'll try to break this down a little. Gets out of car white faced, of course she would, she just returned from her OBGYN with OM. OM touches her face and holds hands. Body language is confident. Your wife is sharing her most private of health care with OM. Seems they have really gotten close in their relationship. You ask her what she was doing with OM at lunch. She laughs and says I knew you were going to ask about that. Francesco think really hard here, is it worth lying to your face about? She says they were working on papers. Instead she is sharing her private medical concerns with another male. 

She laid in bed with you and still says nothing but her odd comment of wishing you will still be here. Is that because she knows what she is doing is wrong on so many levels. I can only tell you what I would do. She will make an appointment ASAP, you go with and question the doctor about all dates. Why? Cause your wife is lying to your face. You can't trust her. Put her on notice that any major medical condition should be discussed between you two only. So if you had a medical condition, hid it from her, until you get the diagnosis, she would be fine with. Bulls--t. She is only telling you because you asked. That's even worse. She is confiding in him and it needs to stop now. Sorry Francesco but your wife is lying her ass off to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Q tip

italianjob said:


> It's not actually incredibly strange if the doctor actually gave her husband a sealed envelope with the results to deliver to Francesco's wife. Here in Italy we sometimes do get a bit easy going with formalities...
> What is strange is that she shared the results with OM...
> 
> On the good side the fact that an envelope existed confirms that her appointments and treatments are documented, so Francesco just has to take a look at them to rule out the pregnancy hypothesis.


Francesco also,said his friends saw the OM and his W (they do sound like a couple now). Share the paperwork while leaving the office building... Wow. Francesco needs to assume the worst and let the wife start doing some lifting offer own.

My wife would be quitting that job and would be facing harsh music if this were me.


----------



## brendanoco

Honestly do most of ye just create this sh*t in your heads despite there being zero evidence what ye think is going??


----------



## Yeswecan

turnera said:


> Ok, couple of things. I have NEVER heard of a person having to go to 3 separate appointments to learn about my menopause (omitting the first, 'meet and greet' appointment). Two, maybe. What, they didn't do the tests the first time? I went to one appointment, had the tests done, and got a phone call verifying.
> 
> Second, I have seriously never heard of a doctor having her _husband _tell her _patient _that the patient does indeed have menopause. This is just too wild to believe.


When my W cycle went haywire she of course discussed it with me. The cycles started lasting 2 weeks where 3-5 days was the usual. She went to her gyno she has used for 25 years. A test was done to see the image of reproductive parts. Cyst found. Surgery to remove. Endometriosis discovered at time of surgery. It is very possible she is in pre-menopause now. There is no hiding her moods as the hormones do their thing. THERE CERTAINLY WAS NO HIDING THE FACT SHE HAD FEELINGS ABOUT HER CHANGE IN BODY. IT CONCERNED HER AND STILL DOES. How can Franceco W be so nonchalant about the entire ordeal? The story being handed down from Francesco W is a bit to wild to believe.


----------



## turnera

brendanoco said:


> Honestly do most of ye just create this sh*t in your heads despite there being zero evidence what ye think is going??


Nope, we base it on the hundreds, thousands of other men who have come here with similar stories when another man is involved in wife's life, and our knowledge of how 95% of them turned out to be EAs, if not PAs.

Is there nothing? Possibly. Is something developing? Almost certainly, especially if Francesco doesn't step in. Is it already happening? Based on the clues, most likely.


----------



## brendanoco

turnera said:


> Nope, we base it on the hundreds, thousands of other men who have come here with similar stories when another man is involved in wife's life, and our knowledge of how 95% of them turned out to be EAs, if not PAs.
> 
> Is there nothing? Possibly. Is something developing? Almost certainly, especially if Francesco doesn't step in. Is it already happening? Based on the clues, most likely.


well they have been followed for weeks and the only evidence they have for an affair is touching of the face and hands for a few seconds.... based on what clues is something happening??


----------



## Yeswecan

brendanoco said:


> well they have been followed for weeks and the only evidence they have for an affair is touching of the face and hands for a few seconds.... based on what clues is something happening??


She has lied Bendanco. That simple. The lie is about major changes in life(menopause). This is shared with a male coworker who also transports her to the doctor who appears to be the coworkers W. She has not told Francesco about any of this. Even when approached twice with both of them together. The odd comment when alone with his W when she hoped he would be there in the future. Come on man...:scratchhead: Something is v very odd with his W behavior. I know of no woman who would go to great lengths to hide going to the doctor with OM. Not once but several times.


----------



## tom67

Francesco I'm not a big fan of them it's more to see her reaction but tell her she's going to take a polygraph.
Waaaay too many secrets here.
Good luck.


----------



## Q tip

My concern is Francisco's wife may slowly lose respect for Francesco.

He has not stood up and mate guarded. He is quietly taking it in. time for action. Before it's too late. 

She could be interpreting that he is OK with her arrangements with OM and secrets. 

Now that some confusing truth is out there, he does not take a strong stand, get angry, stand his ground and have a forceful discussion about boundaries, integrity, OM and why OM is going through all this trouble for her is because she has a pvssy that may become available by nicing her. IF OM was decent, he would give her the Doctors contact number and that is all. Zero involvement.

OM is fully involved. Francisco's wife is fully involved. This is evident.

She will lose respect for him as her husband. That IS the next step if OM is what I think he is. Zero evidence he is not. None.

Mate Guard. Your W has been inappropriate. Take a stand and don't apologize. she was wrong. Her judgement is wrong. Fix her. Fix her boundaries. Have many discussions over the next few months to reinforce your leadership. Get OM out of her life. Also complain to the Doctor what her OM has been doing with her privately.

If OM is a decent guy, I don't care. Mate Guard. It was still inappropriate on so many levels. maybe he saw a green light with her. She approached him out of the blue about ladies problems. Damn I'm angry again...


----------



## tom67

Q tip said:


> My concern is Francisco's wife may slowly lose respect for Francesco.
> 
> He has not stood up and mate guarded. He is quietly taking it in. time for action. Before it's too late.
> 
> She could be interpreting that he is OK with her arrangements with OM and secrets.
> 
> Now that some confusing truth is it there, he does not take a strong stand, get angry, stand his ground and have a forceful discussion about boundaries, integrity, OM and why is is going through all this trouble for her is because she has a pvssy that may become available by nicing her. IF OM was decent, he would give her the Doctors contact number and that is all. Zero involvement.
> 
> OM is fully involved. Francisco's wife is fully involved. This is evident.
> 
> She will lose respect for him as her husband. That IS the next step if OM is what I think he is. Zero evidence he is not. None.
> 
> Mate Guard. Your W has been inappropriate. Take a stand and don't apologize. she was wrong. Her judgement is wrong. Fix her. Fix her boundaries. Have many discussions over the next few months to reinforce your leadership. Get OM out of her life. Also complain to the Doctor what her OM has been doing with her privately.
> 
> If OM is a decent guy, I don't care. Mate Guard. It was still inappropriate on so many levels. maybe he saw a green light with her. She approached him out of the blue about ladies problems. Damn I'm angry again...


Totally agree.
She argues just say "I'm sorry you feel that way" and file and serve her AT WORK.
Sorry but it has come to that.


----------



## brendanoco

Yeswecan said:


> She has lied Bendanco. That simple. The lie is about major changes in life(menopause). This is shared with a male coworker who also transports her to the doctor who appears to be the coworkers W. She has not told Francesco about any of this. Even when approached twice with both of them together. The odd comment when alone with his W when she hoped he would be there in the future. Come on man...:scratchhead: Something is v very odd with his W behavior. I know of no woman who would go to great lengths to hide going to the doctor with OM. Not once but several times.


Yeah her behaviour is inappropriate but where is the evidence they are having an affair????
Again like i said they have been watched and followed for a few weeks and Nothing has happened


----------



## tom67

Francesco you may think we are piling on you but based on the info you have given us most of us generally agree something stinks here.
But it's your life.
Good luck bro.
Peace I'm out.


----------



## turnera

tom67 said:


> Totally agree.
> She argues just say "I'm sorry you feel that way" and file and serve her AT WORK.
> Sorry but it has come to that.


Say what? Divorce? We have clues, no real evidence, and you're ready for him to dump her? Good grief.


----------



## tom67

turnera said:


> Say what? Divorce? We have clues, no real evidence, and you're ready for him to dump her? Good grief.


I said file does not automatically mean divorce.


----------



## italianjob

For now, there is ample evidence of highly inappropriate behavior, only clues about a full affair. 
Logic says that smoke should mean something's burning but we don't know how much and how long it's been burning.
This might be anywhere from a prospective EA building up to much much more.


----------



## Q tip

Well, Francisco has a lot to ponder. He's been given a wide range of thought from here.

The truth is somewhere.

Communication is ever so important with marriage. 

It pains me that his wife secretly confides so much in another man. Shares her tears openly with him and he's there to wipe them dry. Just too much romance going on between them. He did not do that the first date. It built up over time. So slowly that Francesco and his wife both seem oblivious.

Anyway, the truth is out there.


----------



## bfree

brendanoco said:


> Yeah her behaviour is inappropriate but where is the evidence they are having an affair????
> Again like i said they have been watched and followed for a few weeks and Nothing has happened


Sometimes if you wait around for evidence by the time you have some it's too late and the marriage is destroyed.


----------



## bfree

Q tip said:


> Well, Francisco has a lot to ponder. He's been given a wide range of thought from here.
> 
> The truth is somewhere.
> 
> Communication is ever so important with marriage.
> 
> It pains me that his wife secretly confides so much in another man. Shares her tears openly with him and he's there to wipe them dry. Just too much romance going on between them. He did not do that the first date. It built up over time. So slowly that Francesco and his wife both seem oblivious.
> 
> Anyway, the truth is out there.


Yes. Regardless of what the actual truth is the fact remains that another man has taken his place emotionally and is comforting his wife.


----------



## Yeswecan

brendanoco said:


> Yeah her behaviour is inappropriate but where is the evidence they are having an affair????
> Again like i said they have been watched and followed for a few weeks and Nothing has happened


At the very least there is a budding of an EA. I believe the OM is working it(PUA). Her sharing intimate knowledge with OM is getting on the edge of EA if not already there. Specifically when Francesco is sitting in the dark. Specifically when she has been seen several times with OM during work hours/lunch/car. 

Also, Francesco had found them stepping out of OM car during lunch. She went white faced. Probably just returned from the gyno! She will did not tell Francesco what was going on when provided several opportunities. 

What other evidence is required to see that at least a EA is in the works?


----------



## Q tip

brendanoco said:


> Yeah her behaviour is inappropriate but where is the evidence they are having an affair????
> Again like i said they have been watched and followed for a few weeks and Nothing has happened


Been around TAM long?

Friend
Close Friend
Confidant
EA
PA
DDay (for those that get caught)
Exposure
Tears
False R
Divorce
Enlightened Betrayed Spouse, Wayward Spouse out in the cold - or Wayward Spouse sucking the life out of Betrayed Spouse.

A few, very few live happily ever after, stronger than ever. Bless them, pray for the rest.


----------



## Yeswecan

bfree said:


> Yes. Regardless of what the actual truth is the fact remains that another man has taken his place emotionally and is comforting his wife.


Bfree has nailed it. This is exactly what is going on. 

For some reason Francesco appears to ok with this. Just a simple coworker friendship with OM and assistance with his W physical woman issues that comes with age. Happens all the time. Right? :scratchhead:

However, I can see some talking to a coworker about certain physical women issues. In passing that is. Some women and men get comfortable enough to talk about physical issues. But a full out transport to the doctors several times and sharing the diagnosis with the coworker and not the spouse....:scratchhead: Not sure what to make of it. I really don't.


----------



## brendanoco

bfree said:


> Sometimes if you wait around for evidence by the time you have some it's too late and the marriage is destroyed.


he is trying to get evidence at the moment but there is none


----------



## brendanoco

Q tip said:


> Been around TAM long?
> 
> Friend
> Close Friend
> Confidant
> EA
> PA
> DDay (for those that get caught)
> Exposure
> Tears
> False R
> Divorce
> Enlightened Betrayed Spouse, Wayward Spouse out in the cold - or Wayward Spouse sucking the life out of Betrayed Spouse.
> 
> A few, very few live happily ever after, stronger than ever. Bless them, pray for the rest.


yeah i have been around TAM long enough but francesco wife is not exhibiting behaviours of someone who is in an affair and the most important bit is he has no evidence of one.


----------



## Tasorundo

Francisco, I urge you to connect with your wife, talk to her about all of this. Your thoughts, feelings, and desire to be there for her.

Secondly, please stay away from here, there is little if anything uplifting or positive in what is being thrown about right now.

TAM imaginations run wild with speculation on all sorts of fronts. None of it is productive to you and your marriage.


----------



## Q tip

bfree said:


> Yes. Regardless of what the actual truth is the fact remains that another man has taken his place emotionally and is comforting his wife.


All this added attention, caring and thoughtfulness has her coming back for more. 

She'll be gently defending OM with Francesco because she's addicted to his gallant, tear drying, manhood, attention, charm and position. She loves the attention and is already willingly sharing herself emotionally with her replacement husband.

WAKE UP!!!


----------



## Yeswecan

brendanoco said:


> yeah i have been around TAM long enough but francesco wife is not exhibiting behaviours of someone who is in an affair and the most important bit is he has no evidence of one.


Sure she is...she has lied about her what occurs during the lunch hour. Paperwork as she said. It appears she is visiting a gyno with OM. Call it what you like. If you don't want to call it an affair...call it blatant lying to her husband.


----------



## Q tip

brendanoco said:


> he is trying to get evidence at the moment but there is none


oh, but there is...

If this was your wife, and you only have his info to go on, you'd be good with it? Francesco had less evidence when he came to TAM.

Let Francesco know your thought process as opposed to taking issue with others. It can help.


----------



## Yeswecan

Tasorundo said:


> Francisco, I urge you to connect with your wife, talk to her about all of this. Your thoughts, feelings, and desire to be there for her.
> 
> Secondly, please stay away from here, there is little if anything uplifting or positive in what is being thrown about right now.
> 
> TAM imaginations run wild with speculation on all sorts of fronts. None of it is productive to you and your marriage.


Why the lying, secretive doctor visits and hope Francesco will be here in the future? :scratchhead:

Is she really afraid Francesco will leave is she is going through menopause? If so, why is Francesco not given the opportunity to answer that question?


----------



## brendanoco

Q tip said:


> oh, but there is...
> 
> If this was your wife, and you only have his info to go on, you'd be good with it? Francesco had less evidence when he came to TAM.
> 
> Let Francesco know your thought process as opposed to taking issue with others. It can help.


what is the evidence of an affair taking place?????


----------



## Chaparral

Is it normal for women to fear their husband will break up their family and leave them because they go through menopause?


----------



## Yeswecan

Chaparral said:


> Is it normal for women to fear their husband will break up their family and leave them because they go through menopause?


My W worried about our sex life. Would it diminish? Will she have less sex drive. But, she would certainly not go to a coworker, confide in him, get a ride several times to the doctors and not tell me. Francescos W planned this and made a choice to do so. Why?


----------



## Yeswecan

brendanoco said:


> what is the evidence of an affair taking place?????


Emotional affair is what it appears on the surface. 

*You share personal thoughts or stories with someone of the opposite sex.* Guarantee this is happening. 
*You feel a greater emotional intimacy with him/her than you do with your spouse.* Enough were she confide menopause issue and gets several rides to the doctors. Francesco knows nothing of it. 
You start comparing him/her to your spouse, and begin listing why your spouse doesn't add up. 
You long for, and look forward to, your next contact or conversation.
You start changing your normal routine or duties to spend more time with him/her.
*You feel the need to keep conversations or activities involving him/her a secret from your spouse.* OK..a biggy here. Not one word to Francesco about doctor visits that went on for several months. 
You fantasize about spending time with, getting to know or sharing a life with him/her.
*You spend significant time alone with him/her.* Work, lunch and doctor visits. These are what we know.


----------



## turnera

Chaparral said:


> Is it normal for women to fear their husband will break up their family and leave them because they go through menopause?


That's why I keep asking Francesco what their marriage is like. If HE isn't being the warmest, most accessible man, if HE is being critical of her, making her feel unsafe, it's quite possible for her to fear this. Or to more easily fall into an EA. 

But he hasn't answered yet.


----------



## convert

brendanoco said:


> what is the evidence of an affair taking place?????


Yes on the surface this could be an EA (emotional affair)
the close lunches
hand holding
touching the face
another man taking a wife to the gynecologist 
her not telling him (OP)
actually making up another story about work papers
her talking to OP one night about her being afraid of him leaving her
the white face when caught getting out of the car

I can't think of any possibility that another man taking *my wife* to the gynecologist would be OK (even if he was gay)


----------



## brendanoco

convert said:


> Yes on the surface this could be an EA (emotional affair)
> the close lunches
> hand holding
> touching the face
> another man taking a wife to the gynecologist
> her not telling him (OP)
> actually making up another story about work papers
> her talking to OP one night about her being afraid of him leaving her
> the white face when caught getting out of the car
> 
> *I can't think of any possibility that another man taking my wife to the gynecologist would be OK (even if he was gay)*


yeah i understand that but the Gynaecologist is the OM wife so dont you think that can explain some of their behavior


----------



## convert

Yeswecan said:


> Emotional affair is what it appears on the surface.
> 
> *You share personal thoughts or stories with someone of the opposite sex.* Guarantee this is happening.
> *You feel a greater emotional intimacy with him/her than you do with your spouse.* Enough were she confide menopause issue and gets several rides to the doctors. Francesco knows nothing of it.
> You start comparing him/her to your spouse, and begin listing why your spouse doesn't add up.
> You long for, and look forward to, your next contact or conversation.
> You start changing your normal routine or duties to spend more time with him/her.
> *You feel the need to keep conversations or activities involving him/her a secret from your spouse.* OK..a biggy here. Not one word to Francesco about doctor visits that went on for several months.
> You fantasize about spending time with, getting to know or sharing a life with him/her.
> *You spend significant time alone with him/her.* Work, lunch and doctor visits. These are what we know.


agree
by definition in this case here it is an EA


----------



## convert

brendanoco said:


> yeah i understand that but the Gynaecologist is the OM wife so dont you think that can explain some of their behavior


No. oh god no

he can easily refer her but to take her, no way


----------



## italianjob

Chaparral said:


> Is it normal for women to fear their husband will break up their family and leave them because they go through menopause?


I think the problem here is that, in the same year when she turned 40 she started having menopause problems. Keep in mind that it is an early age for such problems, so she probably started feeling old all of a sudden. She started thinking that her husband might see her as less of a woman in her new condition, and maybe projecting these feelings on Francesco, convincing herself that he might not want her anymore. 

That's probably why she didn't want to tell Francesco in the beginning. Somehow OM (casually with her search for a new gyno? With premeditation on his or her part? We don't know) stepped in and took some kind of a role.
IMO It looks like he's playing KISA in her imagination, emotionally filling the role of Francesco in some ways.

Her current psychological Outlook is very Dangerous. It's the typical situation in which people do things that you would consider out of character in any other moment of their lives. That's why Francesco needs to avoid to downplay this situation.

I think she projected on Francesco her feelings of inadequacy, actually not letting him have a chance to prove himself from the very beginning and has let the OM take up a role of male validation for her.
I see this situation as very Dangerous.


----------



## z_man

brendanoco said:


> yeah i have been around TAM long enough but francesco wife is not exhibiting behaviours of someone who is in an affair and the most important bit is he has no evidence of one.


And prior to the story that his wife was seeing a gyno, he had no evidence (visual observation of wife's behavior and physical condition whom he has known through many years and life events) that she was menopausal and concerned enough to seek professional opinions.


----------



## bfree

brendanoco said:


> he is trying to get evidence at the moment but there is none


Have you been reading this thread? Is there not sufficient evidence of a man not her husband providing inappropriate emotional support and comfort? Is there not evidence of deceit and gaslighting? What more evidence is needed?


----------



## bfree

brendanoco said:


> yeah i understand that but the Gynaecologist is the OM wife so dont you think that can explain some of their behavior


No


----------



## convert

bfree said:


> Have you been reading this thread? Is there not sufficient evidence of a man not her husband providing inappropriate emotional support and comfort? Is there not evidence of deceit and gaslighting? What more evidence is needed?


:iagree:

I agree completely some people still think an EA is not an affair (I know my ww didn't), they can be damaging as well
and often lead to a PA

which is one of the reasons we are advising op here. So it does not to turn into a PA.


----------



## drifting on

italianjob said:


> I think the problem here is that, in the same year when she turned 40 she started having menopause problems. Keep in mind that it is an early age for such problems, so she probably started feeling old all of a sudden. She started thinking that her husband might see her as less of a woman in her new condition, and maybe projecting these feelings on Francesco, convincing herself that he might not want her anymore.
> 
> That's probably why she didn't want to tell Francesco in the beginning. Somehow OM (casually with her search for a new gyno? With premeditation on his or her part? We don't know) stepped in and took some kind of a role.
> IMO It looks like he's playing KISA in her imagination, emotionally filling the role of Francesco in some ways.
> 
> Her current psychological Outlook is very Dangerous. It's the typical situation in which people do things that you would consider out of character in any other moment of their lives. That's why Francesco needs to avoid to downplay this situation.
> 
> I think she projected on Francesco her feelings of inadequacy, actually not letting him have a chance to prove himself from the very beginning and has let the OM take up a role of male validation for her.
> I see this situation as very Dangerous.




First paragraph. Now add in white faced, lied, OM takes her to doctor, touching of the face, hand holding, confident body language, her hoping Francesco stays with her. If it wasn't physical already they are walking through the door now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Yeswecan

brendanoco said:


> yeah i understand that but the Gynaecologist is the OM wife so dont you think that can explain some of their behavior


Brendaoco..what difference does it make????? She went with OM. Withheld information. Secretive. 

Even if the other man was the Pope and he was taking my W to Mother Mary my W would not go with the Pope. She would insist I go.

She needs to explain:
-Several visits to doctor
-why she did not share this with Francesco when provided several opportunities


----------



## Nucking Futs

Yeswecan said:


> Brendaoco..what difference does it make????? She went with OM. Withheld information. Secretive.
> 
> Even if the other man was the Pope and he was taking my W to Mother Mary my W would not go with the Pope. She would insist I go.
> 
> She needs to explain:
> -Several visits to doctor
> -*why she looked him in the eyes and lied to Francesco when directly asked on multiple occasions where she had been and what they were doing*


Fify


----------



## Tobyboy

This might be a case of an infatuation that just got carried away. 
In her attempt to garner undivided attention from the the OM, she concocts an ailment, an ailment that the wife of OM specialize at!!! 
This is her fantasy. That's why she hid it from Francesco. That's why she didn't fill out her script. She is pursuing the attention.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## to much drama

Francesco,

I try to come on here for you, but I am so pissed off about this and she is not my wife.

She should have been talking to you, not OM. If he was to give her his wife's phone number, that should have been it, no more.

She gives you these sorry sad innocent answers and you then feel guilty that you are doing something wrong. She made you be this way with her sneaking around meetings, lunches, bench fondling, oh poor wife as the other man touches her.

If my wife came out of some guys car that I didn't know. I would have had alot of questions right there for the both of them and then at home. I know you love her, but stand up and take some action!!


----------



## Yeswecan

to much drama said:


> Francesco,
> 
> I try to come on here for you, but I am so pissed off about this and she is not my wife.
> 
> She should have been talking to you, not OM. If he was to give her his wife's phone number, that should have been it, no more.
> 
> She gives you these sorry sad innocent answers and you then feel guilty that you are doing something wrong. She made you be this way with her sneaking around meetings, lunches, bench fondling, oh poor wife as the other man touches her.
> 
> If my wife came out of some guys car that I didn't know. I would have had alot of questions right there for the both of them and then at home. I know you love her, but stand up and take some action!!


:iagree:


----------



## to much drama

If I found out about all this and behind my back with another guy and she did not come to me. wow. I would be very upset and very much hurt. That is what a marriage is all about!!

Then i would go to the guy and have a talk with him also. He was way out of line. and if the OB wife/professional knows about all of this, I would have a very serious talk with her also with my wife there. And at that time I would ask for the file and all of us go over what is going on and for how long.

Don't let her make you feel guilty, you did nothing wrong. You were worried-- something is not right, your gut told you this. and this is not right.

Stand up and talk to/with her like "ADULTS". Seems like you two really do not communicate well with each other.

I would really have a talk with this guy, unless your 5 foot tall 90lbs and he is 6'4 230 lbs, lol

CR


----------



## Q tip

Yeswecan said:


> Why the lying, secretive doctor visits and hope Francesco will be here in the future? :scratchhead:
> 
> Is she really afraid Francesco will leave is she is going through menopause? If so, why is Francesco not given the opportunity to answer that question?


Perhaps a close associate put that thought in her mind. I wonder who and why.


----------



## Q tip

italianjob said:


> I think the problem here is that, in the same year when she turned 40 she started having menopause problems. Keep in mind that it is an early age for such problems, so she probably started feeling old all of a sudden. She started thinking that her husband might see her as less of a woman in her new condition, and maybe projecting these feelings on Francesco, convincing herself that he might not want her anymore.
> 
> That's probably why she didn't want to tell Francesco in the beginning. Somehow OM (casually with her search for a new gyno? With premeditation on his or her part? We don't know) stepped in and took some kind of a role.
> IMO It looks like he's playing KISA in her imagination, emotionally filling the role of Francesco in some ways.
> 
> Her current psychological Outlook is very Dangerous. It's the typical situation in which people do things that you would consider out of character in any other moment of their lives. That's why Francesco needs to avoid to downplay this situation.
> 
> I think she projected on Francesco her feelings of inadequacy, actually not letting him have a chance to prove himself from the very beginning and has let the OM take up a role of male validation for her.
> I see this situation as very Dangerous.


WOW. she wont tell her husband as he may think of her a less of a woman. Ill bet OM thinks shes twice the woman... Whatever he's saying keeps her close to him throughout her ordeal of medical trips and concerns. oh boy.

Whatever OM is saying keeps Francesco out of the marital loop. Just wow. He's smooth eh?


----------



## Yeswecan

Q tip said:


> WOW. she wont tell her husband as he may think of her a less of a woman. Ill bet OM thinks shes twice the woman... Whatever he's saying keeps her close to him throughout her ordeal of medical trips and concerns. oh boy.


Francesco's W did not give him the opportunity to say anything. Such as being supportive and concerned let alone saying, "W, you are a lesser woman because of menopause." Honestly, the entire story just stinks like a garbage barge from NY City. 

Francesco...you are being way to accepting here. Do not take this story hook, line and sinker. It does not wash.


----------



## Q tip

convert said:


> Yes on the surface this could be an EA (emotional affair)
> the close lunches
> hand holding
> touching the face
> another man taking a wife to the gynecologist
> her not telling him (OP)
> actually making up another story about work papers
> her talking to OP one night about her being afraid of him leaving her
> the white face when caught getting out of the car
> 
> I can't think of any possibility that another man taking *my wife* to the gynecologist would be OK (even if he was gay)


The two lives of Mrs. Francesco. She will need to tell the truth sooner or later. Trickle Truth is wrong. It seeks to minimize the damage. "Oh, I knew you would ask..."


----------



## Q tip

Yeswecan said:


> Brendaoco..what difference does it make????? She went with OM. Withheld information. Secretive.
> 
> Even if the other man was the Pope and he was taking my W to Mother Mary my W would not go with the Pope. She would insist I go.
> 
> She needs to explain:
> -Several visits to doctor
> -why she did not share this with Francesco when provided several opportunities


She also needs to explain Mr OM. Mr Husband replacement... Private lunches, splitting off from the group. Bad behavior brings obvious poor excuses. She'll be defending her new friend too just watch and observe.


----------



## Yeswecan

Q tip said:


> She also needs to explain Mr OM. Mr Husband replacement... Private lunches, splitting off from the group. Bad behavior brings obvious poor excuses. She'll be defending her new friend too just watch and observe.


Honestly Q-tip...I don't understand how Francesco sits idly by and accepts OM taking his W to the doctors. W says nothing. This has been going on for months! Really, I'm flabbergasted. 

What is the reason this never came up in conversation? :scratchhead:


----------



## Q tip

Yeswecan said:


> Honestly Q-tip...I don't understand how Francesco sits idly by and accepts OM taking his W to the doctors. W says nothing. This has been going on for months! Really, I'm flabbergasted.
> 
> What is the reason this never came up in conversation? :scratchhead:


:scratchhead: :scratchhead: :scratchhead: :scratchhead: :scratchhead: :scratchhead: :scratchhead: :scratchhead: :scratchhead: :scratchhead: :scratchhead: :scratchhead: :scratchhead: :scratchhead: :scratchhead: :scratchhead:


----------



## Q tip

/WorstCaseOn

What I have in my mind... worst case.

What if it has turned into a PA already. Seems OMs timing is pretty good. They are quite close. Body language, how they are together in public. Not a care in the world. No needs to communicate outside of work. Lunches. 

I just wonder if she has any other unaccountable time away from home. Some kinds of fun don't take that long. Certainly, OMs done quite a job innocently bonding her to himself. Not much else left to do to seal the deal.

/WorstCase Off


----------



## Francesco

wow.... plenty to catch up to read! In the meanwhile i will try to answer some quandary about myself that someone thinks of me.
Like i had wrote, i am a security guard, the one that is armed with a gun and a bullet jacket, and i am a person that face's reality with calm and rationality. 
I must remind every one that the explanation she gave me was because i had only told her that "friend" saw her at "building", and nothing else. Then she told me all that i have said. She does not know that i had her followed, she does not know my state of mind. All the info came from her without me asking much.
Why i do this?
First, i needed to know if dates and certain situations combine;
second, i needed to look in her eye's to catch an emotional discomfort;
third, i didn't want to show myself insecure nor make her suspect that i have had doubts of her loyalty.
Now, she gave me these reasons/explanations, but i am still not satisfied. When i will confront her (admitting what i did) i will need to know the full story in every detail before putting my foot down. If something physical happened, for me it's over, done, kapput!

In the meanwhile yesterday and today she was followed. Nothing out of normal.
She also called the OMW in front of me to say that she started the pill. Her next appointment will me by mid march, and she is going with me.


----------



## Yeswecan

Your W has answered why she did not approach you several months ago with her physical aliment and decided best to have OM take her to several doctor appointments?


----------



## Francesco

tom67 said:


> Francesco you may think we are piling on you but based on the info you have given us most of us generally agree something stinks here.
> But it's your life.
> Good luck bro.
> Peace I'm out.


this statement surprised me. Can I ask you a question Tom?
Do you always ask a question, then give yourself the answer and 
decide what action to take by wishing luck and peace?

what can I say?


----------



## Francesco

Yeswecan said:


> Your W has answered why she did not approach you several months ago with her physical aliment and decided best to have OM take her to several doctor appointments?


my wife only answered why she was at that building, the rest was her telling me what was going on


----------



## Yeswecan

Francesco said:


> my wife only answered why she was at that building, the rest was her telling me what was going on


Francesco, why did she not tell you of her physical issue? Why did she choose to have a coworker(male) take her to a gynocologist? Why the secrecy of the doctor visits?


----------



## turnera

So when WILL you be ready to stop being afraid to tell her the truth and ask her the hard questions?


----------



## Francesco

Yeswecan said:


> Francesco, why did she not tell you of her physical issue? Why did she choose to have a coworker(male) take her to a gynocologist? Why the secrecy of the doctor visits?


According to her she was not sure and wanted to be certain, the OM probably knew what was going on in December, not before. The Gyno is OMW's. 
Also she was willing to tell me sunday night, but my dad had that problem and she waited


----------



## drifting on

Francesco said:


> my wife only answered why she was at that building, the rest was her telling me what was going on



Francesco

How would she react if you went to the doctor with a female during lunch, the doctor is her husband, she catches you twice, you laugh and lie saying we were working on papers, then tell her you didn't want to worry her? Lets say you it was your prostrate and you confided not in your wife but a female co-worker. You tell her after she had to come to you and not of her own free will. Would she react angrily or calm?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Francesco

turnera said:


> So when WILL you be ready to stop being afraid to tell her the truth and ask her the hard questions?


no, the only thing i am afraid of is my reaction. I need to have every detail without any duoghts.


----------



## Francesco

drifting on said:


> Francesco
> 
> How would she react if you went to the doctor with a female during lunch, the doctor is her husband, she catches you twice, you laugh and lie saying we were working on papers, then tell her you didn't want to worry her? Lets say you it was your prostrate and you confided not in your wife but a female co-worker. You tell her after she had to come to you and not of her own free will. Would she react angrily or calm?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


yes i know, ther are some parts thAT i dont like, but OM has known her problem only recently, not from october.
I probably write in a bad way, cause it seems that i keep on answering the same questions


----------



## italianjob

Francesco said:


> According to her she was not sure and wanted to be certain, the OM probably knew what was going on in December, not before. The Gyno is OMW's.
> Also she was willing to tell me sunday night, but my dad had that problem and she waited


I see and understand you don't want to ask too many questions because you want to learn more about this and want her to feel safe so if there is more to find out she won't take it underground.

Anyway, did you make her notice that letting another man (wife or no wife) take her to all appointments and know about her health issue before her husband is not something that should be considered appropriate?

I advise you to wait before you tell her about surveillance at least for a few weeks after you confront, you might need more if something comes up in the confrontation.


----------



## drifting on

Francesco said:


> yes i know, ther are some parts thAT i dont like, but OM has known her problem only recently, not from october.
> I probably write in a bad way, cause it seems that i keep on answering the same questions




Francesco

You communicate perfectly fine. I ask because from what I went through the same is being done to you. What I see in your story and in hindsight from mine you are being replaced. She has shared intimate knowledge only a husband or parent should be privy to. She has no problem doing this and has since December. That's two full months and she lied to you!! Somehow you need to get the information and fast. Tell her how disturbing it is to you that she trust another male with such information that only you should know. Maybe tell her you feel she is replacing you with being so close to another male. All I know is you need to question her NOW!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> yes i know, ther are some parts thAT i dont like, but OM has known her problem only recently, not from october.
> I probably write in a bad way, cause it seems that i keep on answering the same questions


your wife shared her personal issues with OM not you so far she is lying by omission that shes been seeing OM, lunches, tears, hand holding, comfort with him not you. she is trickle truthing. probably innocent, but every day that goes by she is lying to you.

my wife doing this to me... BIG TROUBLE for her and OM


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> no, the only thing i am afraid of is my reaction. I need to have every detail without any duoghts.


i think she wont give you the whole truth. only what she thinks you already know. nothing more. that is the painful part. she shares with another man not her husband and still maintains the secret only because she thinks you do not know.

she does not know yet, but not getting you involved and using a replacement husband will forever create doubt


----------



## Chaparral

Has your wife started acting any differently since she told you what's going on with her?


----------



## Chaparral

Did you ask her what her symptoms were?


----------



## Q tip

have OM followed too. you want to know his behavior too. does he have other girls he helps...?


----------



## Yeswecan

Francesco said:


> According to her she was not sure and wanted to be certain, *the OM probably knew what was going on in December,* not before. The Gyno is OMW's.
> Also she was willing to tell me sunday night, but my dad had that problem and she waited


This is problem, sir. OM should not know anything. I see your W is sharing this with OM. She is offering up what is going on. This is not entirely unusual. I have a coworker that is female and we discussed women issues as my W was having surgery to remove a ovarian cyst. The difference is I did not go digging for what my coworker had done with her female parts. She offered it up and some suggestions on what my W might think about. Like tubes tied, etc. Here is the major difference. Her H knows everything she has had done physically. He took her to the doctors when needed. None of it was my business unless my coworker offered up anything about it. Not until my W needed to see a surgeon for similar issues did my coworker offer advise. 

So, I can see this conversation of your W's beginning with a female coworker that escalated to being heard by OM who offered his W's services as she is a Gynecologist. But that is were it stops!!! No transporting to the doctors office. No keeping it a secret unit she "knows for sure". That is all nonsense. Your W should come to you for physical issues such as this. Not OM unless OM is a licensed physician.

Currently I see the issue as your wife hiding a physical aliment from you and for what reason I don't know. As far as OM...this is a beginning of an emotional attachment that needs to be addressed.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Francesco said:


> wow.... plenty to catch up to read! In the meanwhile i will try to answer some quandary about myself that someone thinks of me.
> Like i had wrote, i am a security guard, the one that is armed with a gun and a bullet jacket, and i am a person that face's reality with calm and rationality.
> I must remind every one that the explanation she gave me was because i had only told her that "friend" saw her at "building", and nothing else. Then she told me all that i have said. She does not know that i had her followed, she does not know my state of mind. All the info came from her without me asking much.
> Why i do this?
> First, i needed to know if dates and certain situations combine;
> second,* i needed to look in her eye's to catch an emotional discomfort;*
> third, i didn't want to show myself insecure nor make her suspect that i have had doubts of her loyalty.
> Now, she gave me these reasons/explanations, but i am still not satisfied. When i will confront her (admitting what i did) i will need to know the full story in every detail before putting my foot down. If something physical happened, for me it's over, done, kapput!
> 
> In the meanwhile yesterday and today she was followed. Nothing out of normal.
> She also called the OMW in front of me to say that she started the pill. Her next appointment will me by mid march, and she is going with me.


When she laughed and said she knew you were going to ask about it and they were just doing paperwork did you see an emotional discomfort in her eyes? You know she was lying to your face that time, are you sure you'll be able to judge the truth based on her reactions?

You may think we keep going on and on about this but the sad truth is most of the time in a situation like this the BS decides to believe the WS and comes back a year later devastated by finding out the WS was cheating the whole time. We just don't want to see you stop short of the truth, the pain is much worse if you let yourself be fooled.


----------



## drifting on

Nucking Futs said:


> When she laughed and said she knew you were going to ask about it and they were just doing paperwork did you see an emotional discomfort in her eyes? You know she was lying to your face that time, are you sure you'll be able to judge the truth based on her reactions?
> 
> You may think we keep going on and on about this but the sad truth is most of the time in a situation like this the BS decides to believe the WS and comes back a year later devastated by finding out the WS was cheating the whole time. We just don't want to see you stop short of the truth, the pain is much worse if you let yourself be fooled.


Nucking Futs


If only I knew all what you posted I wouldn't be a betrayed spouse. I hope for Francesco's sake he stops it in time. That pain is unbearable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

Nucking Futs said:


> When she laughed and said she knew you were going to ask about it and they were just doing paperwork did you see an emotional discomfort in her eyes? You know she was lying to your face that time, are you sure you'll be able to judge the truth based on her reactions?
> 
> You may think we keep going on and on about this but the sad truth is most of the time in a situation like this the BS decides to believe the WS and comes back a year later devastated by finding out the WS was cheating the whole time. We just don't want to see you stop short of the truth, the pain is much worse if you let yourself be fooled.


:iagree:


----------



## turnera

Francesco said:


> no, the only thing i am afraid of is my reaction. I need to have every detail without any doubts.


Which details are you lacking?


----------



## Q tip

Nucking Futs said:


> When she laughed and said she knew you were going to ask about it and they were just doing paperwork did you see an emotional discomfort in her eyes? You know she was lying to your face that time, are you sure you'll be able to judge the truth based on her reactions?
> 
> You may think we keep going on and on about this but the sad truth is most of the time in a situation like this the BS decides to believe the WS and comes back a year later devastated by finding out the WS was cheating the whole time. We just don't want to see you stop short of the truth, the pain is much worse if you let yourself be fooled.


QFT

Francesco. Please read reread and read this again.

shes protecting OM from your marriage. shes hiding the truth because she knows you wont like the truth. why does she think this? because you wont like the truth.


----------



## Yeswecan

turnera said:


> Which details are you lacking?


I think Francesco needs to know beyond a shadow a doubt that infidelity(physical) has occurred. As of now he has witnessed lying and secretive behavior. W twice found with OM at lunch at the park and exiting OM car. Now found at the gynecologist with OM. When she had been seen by Francesco standing as she exited the car she got white in the face(look of deer in the headlights). The "oh sh!t" look. She asked if Francesco would be there in the future. Why? Is Francesco going somewhere? Well, yes..if he has found his W has been less than faithful. She knew he would ask about the car incident. She had every opportunity to speak truth. At this juncture, she is not trustworthy in the respect that she has been caught in several lies. The secretiveness compounds the issue. It appears she has done less than a stellar effort in easing Francescos mind. However, without the hard questions I would believe the W feels she has gotten Francesco convinced it is all on the level. Francesco has nothing concrete...at least in his mind.


----------



## turnera

What if he never gets that proof?


----------



## Yeswecan

turnera said:


> What if he never gets that proof?


Then the hard questions need to be asked. And I still do think they need to be asked regardless. Why the secretive visits to the gynecologist. Why OM driving? Why lie when she had opportunity to set the record straight?

There is an old saying, "It will come out in the wash." This too will come out in the wash. It may not be today or tomorrow. But one day.


----------



## drifting on

Yeswecan said:


> Then the hard questions need to be asked. And I still do think they need to be asked regardless. Why the secretive visits to the gynecologist. Why OM driving? Why lie when she had opportunity to set the record straight?
> 
> There is an old saying, "It will come out in the wash." This too will come out in the wash. It may not be today or tomorrow. But one day.



Exactly what happened to me, no hard proof or smoking gun. Ask the hard questions now, and keep following her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dogbert

Hard questions such as: 

*Why did you trust a stranger more than you did me, your husband?

Why did you allow a stranger to physically touch you in ways that are reserved for me, your husband or a close family member? *


----------



## Yeswecan

Dogbert said:


> Hard questions such as:
> 
> *Why did you trust a stranger more than you did me, your husband?
> 
> Why did you allow a stranger to physically touch you in ways that are reserved for me, your husband or a close family member? *


To name a few.


----------



## naiveonedave

Here is my concern with this thread. 

I am 90+% sure the OM is using PUA tactics to get in her pants. I am sure the OP's W is either not catching that she is getting played or is enjoying the ego boost. Based on this, it will likely get too far for the OPs marriage not to suffer significantly.

The longer he waits to confront, the more likely it is that a) it is too late for her (she is now in luv with OM and not OP) or b) it is too late for him (went PA). However, a soft confront won't help. 

I think he really needs to mate guard here. Set strong boundaries quickly or else his role will be replaced by the OM.


----------



## tom67

naiveonedave said:


> Here is my concern with this thread.
> 
> I am 90+% sure the OM is using PUA tactics to get in her pants. I am sure the OP's W is either not catching that she is getting played or is enjoying the ego boost. Based on this, it will likely get too far for the OPs major not to suffer significantly.
> 
> The longer he waits to confront, the more likely it is that a) it is too late for her (she is now in luv with OM and not OP) or b) it is too late for him (went PA). However, a soft confront won't help.
> 
> I think he really needs to mate guard here. Set strong boundaries quickly or else his role will be replaced by the OM.


Exactly
Hope for the best
Prepare for the worst


----------



## Q tip

Yes, he can stop it all as opposed to letting it develop. Perhaps Francesco wants to let it go on to see who she really is or what she's become and capable of doing.

But if Mr OM is a PUA, it would be unfair to her. Once he gets her emotionally, it's merely her slipping deeper and deeper down that slope. He could save her at any time. wake her up.

if it is innocence, she will be all the wiser and hate OM for being so caring. if it is an affair, or going that way - when "discovered" she will feel shame, regret, remorse and hate OM too. she will also have shame for sharing with OM the way she so willingly has.

its all up to Francesco how far he will allow this to go. if he steps in, visits the doctor and mate guards, c0ckblocks and OM quietly disappears and lets this all go without discussion, it will be sad. he is in control of all. it is his decision. do nothing and resolve it gently 

OR

expose to his w her inappropriate actions, OM inappropriate actions and a huge conversation under his complete control. its a question of what Francesco wants.


----------



## Q tip

turnera said:


> What if he never gets that proof?


yes. what if something happened already and his W regrets it and is keeping her affair, OM a compete secret. the rest she talks about is her doctors trips. it happened once and was a mistake. one never knows.

could she be keeping a ONS her personal shame and secret?

anything she admits with OM will probably start her confession. or protecting the secret. this is what pains Francesco.

if it happened once and she stopped it all, there is no evidence. i kinda think this is extreme. but the secrecy and lies...


----------



## italianjob

I think Francesco's position is:

- if he should find out this is a PA he thinks he will end the marriage.

- if he should find this is a boundary issue o an EA in any stage he will confront with the intention of working on the issues.

He's continuing the surveillance and is letting his wife think he's mostly content with the explanations he got, so she will feel safe enough to not take things further underground.

The problem is, he is more or less where he started. There are huge red flags but seemingly no evidence of anything more than repeated and continuous inappropriate behavior. It's obvious there are secrets being kept but little evidence of the secrets themselves.

If he find no more proof I guess he will put his foot down and confront her about her EA (or beginning of a EA) with OM, but he is afraid that there is more (something physical), and that the confrontation will take it underground never to be found.

By the time he will be ready to confront I think we could help him compile a list of the things he needs to go into details with his wife.


----------



## Decorum

italianjob said:


> The element that makes me think this is a story that has dark corners and secrets in it but it's not made up, is the presence of OMW as the doctor. From what Francesco explain she sounds like a renown professional (remember to check her reputation in the field, Francesco) who wouldn't jeopardize her trade to help her husband get some.
> 
> My raccomandation is to check every bit of medical information, receipts, etc. and make sure they match up with what you know.
> 
> I also suggest not to tell anything to her about your surveillance for quite some time. You might need to do it again. make up a story for the bench episode, if you want to ask her about it.


This is the point, do your due diligence and this story will unravel if it is untrue, you are in the catbird seat here, no doubt about it. 

And DO NOT disclose your surveillance yet, if ever.

The only way this will stay hidden (if it was an affair) is if going forward she completely cuts of OM, and behaves herself, then it may be a hard nut to crack.

They almost never can pull that off. If she becomes defensive/protective of her relationship with him, or there are other red flags then you have a problem.

There is no need for speculation, I think in this case the truth will out, but we shall see.

Take care!


----------



## Q tip

i dont get OM wife. does she know her H is talking, sharing and giving car rides to her patients... wiping tears, holding hands, talking, lunches. so much so the BH are lied to.

francesco can have a very interesting talk with OMW.

plan, be ready for this talk with doctor and wife -- and OM


----------



## Chaparral

Nothing about this explains holding her hand and her letting him.


----------



## Q tip

Chaparral said:


> Nothing about this explains holding her hand and her letting him.


or their willingness to do so. in public too.  just wonder if it happened then she stopped it... after all, its just a bloody doctors visit. there is more.


----------



## Tobyboy

Q tip said:


> i dont get OM wife. does she know her H is talking, sharing and giving car rides to her patients... wiping tears, holding hands, talking, lunches. so much so the BH are lied to.
> 
> francesco can have a very interesting talk with OMW.
> 
> plan, be ready for this talk with doctor and wife -- and OM


She just might know!! If my theory is right, Francesco wife is the one doing the pursuing. It might just be a crush. OM figured it out and maybe, just maybe he is a standup guy and is just helping her out. This will explain the wife knowing. Also, Francesco wife said that the OM told her to tell Francesco about what was going on with her......she didn't!!! Why? Because that would be the end of the.......whatever is going on in her head.
*ETA: Forgot the biggest clue that this is one sided. If "OM" is such a PUA, why didn't he make his move on the bench. After FIVE months, any self-respecting PUA would have quit trying along time ago!!!!*


----------



## Dyokemm

The problem with taking the wait and monitor approach here is this:

I think Francesco's W and OM are WELL AWARE that he is deeply suspicious of what the h*ll has been going on and will be SERIOUSLY underground or totally NC for a LONG TIME.

W's current actions speak to me of a person who knows she just dodged a MAJOR bullet...no way is Francesco going to get any more evidence for quite awhile if there is anything inappropriate here.

A hard confront and aggressively pursuing every lie and logical inconsistency in the story is probably the best chance he has of getting the truth.

If there is anything going on here, eventually the lies being spun start to unravel under continued questioning of holes and illogical facts because she will spin more lies to try and cover for the previous ones and, eventually, the whole story falls apart and the TTing will begin about the extent of what really went on

BUT at that point, at least the fact there was some type of inappropriate relationship is in the open and Francesco can start digging through the TTing to continue to uncover the truth.

It will be an exhausting grind...but this is the only way I can see Francesco having any chance of discovering anything more unless he is willing to wait a LONG TIME and hope they eventually start back up.

Also, he should contact OMW ASAP to verify the parts of the story he has been told and to make her aware of the hand-holding and cheek caressing, as well as the frequent lunch dates.

OMW may start asking her own questions...OM may crack and confess or tell her a story that doesn't match up with the one Francesco's W will be feeding him at the same time.

And of course, the hard confront and intense questioning may reveal that he essentially has the full truth now....which would be the best outcome and not an unrealistic or impossible to believe outcome.


----------



## Q tip

Francesco has the option of talking about the OM the day he saw her and she saw him and continue questioning about that to get more from her. he has done nothing about that yet. timing, I assume.


----------



## G.J.

Wendesday if i remember is football night

When the kids are in bed what does the wife do

Have you downloaded her FB archives yet and then gone to her email,unzipped them and checked ?


----------



## G.J.

The other point I made earlier in this thread was on football nights it would be an ideal time to take a burner 
phone home from work and take it back to work in her handbag the following day


----------



## Chaparral

As counter point, I don't really think anything is going on. Other man may be grooming her. They evidently did go to a gyno. She doesn't drive to work. His wife makes money on the deal.

They haven't been seen at lunch together since the talk.

Women do freak out about menopause, it also causes different behavior and emotions. Everything could be above board.

Knowing her husband could be cause for the white face episodes. You did become jealous and suspicious, rightly so.

What she has done and lied about it too is wrong, no doubt but up until now there is no evidence of an affair. She should be holding hands and getting support from you, is she?


----------



## italianjob

Chaparral said:


> As counter point, I don't really think anything is going on. Other man may be grooming her. They evidently did go to a gyno. She doesn't drive to work. His wife makes money on the deal.
> 
> They haven't been seen at lunch together since the talk.
> 
> Women do freak out about menopause, it also causes different behavior and emotions. Everything could be above board.
> 
> Knowing her husband could be cause for the white face episodes. You did become jealous and suspicious, rightly so.
> 
> What she has done and lied about it too is wrong, no doubt but up until now there is no evidence of an affair. She should be holding hands and getting support from you, is she?


I agree, more or less, with your assessment, but I think there are some dark points in the story that need to be searched thoroughly.

1. Knowing her husband could be surely the cause for the White face episodes, but it should also have been the cause for coming clean the same night, as soon as she could talk face to face to her husband. Why risk to make such a big fuss if you feel you're really not doing anything wrong?

2. She had a female friend drive her to the first appointment, why Always the OM from the second appointment? Why share results with him (Francesco's friends said she showed the papers to the OM after the latest visit) if you still have said nothing to your own husband?

I think that something is not completely right in this and she knows it. It may be inappropriate playing around and nothing more but it needs to be addressed and stopped.


----------



## drifting on

Chaparral said:


> As counter point, I don't really think anything is going on. Other man may be grooming her. They evidently did go to a gyno. She doesn't drive to work. His wife makes money on the deal.
> 
> They haven't been seen at lunch together since the talk.
> 
> Women do freak out about menopause, it also causes different behavior and emotions. Everything could be above board.
> 
> Knowing her husband could be cause for the white face episodes. You did become jealous and suspicious, rightly so.
> 
> What she has done and lied about it too is wrong, no doubt but up until now there is no evidence of an affair. She should be holding hands and getting support from you, is she?




Or the other side of the coin is; OM took her to the doctor as she was pregnant. Possibly still to early to show being pregnant. Could be why he held her hand and gently brushed her face. Could be why she got out of the car white faced. Could be why she told Francesco she hoped he would stay. Could be why she lied and said I knew you would ask about that. Could be why she and OM are confident with body language as they know each other so intimately. My WW before her affair had a miscarriage. Went to the hospital for a procedure and home in six hours. 

Francesco I understand your position completely, you are in a tough spot. I would ask many questions such as;
Why did you not tell me? Why did you replace me with OM? Why don't you trust me but trust him? Why didn't you tell me when you went white faced? Why did you lie about papers for work? If you knew I would ask about it why didn't you volunteer this? Would you be hurt if I did the same? What would you think if I did this to you? What is your relationship with OM? Why are you secretive? Why are you being deceptive? Why tell me after a friend saw you? Shouldn't you have told me sooner? What else is in that building? Would I be suspicious of what's in that building? When you were white faced and ten minutes late from lunch why didn't you talk to me? Why would you keep your spouse in the dark? What else are you hiding from me? What else are you lying to me about? 

This could go on forever. Best of luck to you Francesco.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## italianjob

drifting on said:


> Why did you not tell me? Why did you replace me with OM? Why don't you trust me but trust him? Why didn't you tell me when you went white faced? Why did you lie about papers for work? If you knew I would ask about it why didn't you volunteer this? Would you be hurt if I did the same? What would you think if I did this to you? What is your relationship with OM? Why are you secretive? Why are you being deceptive? Why tell me after a friend saw you? Shouldn't you have told me sooner? What else is in that building? Would I be suspicious of what's in that building? When you were white faced and ten minutes late from lunch why didn't you talk to me? Why would you keep your spouse in the dark? What else are you hiding from me? What else are you lying to me about?
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If I were Francesco, whenever he will confront, these are all questions I would ask and would not accept elusive answers to.

Except maybe the questions about the building, I would research what else is in the building on my own (also who owns the apartments, should I need to know).


----------



## turnera

drifting on said:


> Or the other side of the coin is; OM took her to the doctor as she was pregnant. Possibly still to early to show being pregnant. Could be why he held her hand and gently brushed her face. Could be why she got out of the car white faced. Could be why she told Francesco she hoped he would stay. Could be why she lied and said I knew you would ask about that. Could be why she and OM are confident with body language as they know each other so intimately. My WW before her affair had a miscarriage. Went to the hospital for a procedure and home in six hours.


That's exactly what I think happened.


----------



## italianjob

turnera said:


> That's exactly what I think happened.


I think you would need to go to a clinic or a hospital to do that, and you wouldn't need so many trips and so many appointments (Francesco said she produced receipts).

I also think it would have affected her schedule that day, and Francesco reported nothing about her leaving the kids to somebody else's care or something like that.

Again, anything is possible, but this one's not the right one IMO.


----------



## italianjob

Of course Francesco needs to have a long talk with the doctor/OMW as soon as possible, and to see all medical evidence of the appointments and tests that have been done.


----------



## turnera

Oh, I don't mean about abortion; I mean about a pregnancy scare.


----------



## italianjob

turnera said:


> Oh, I don't mean about abortion; I mean about a pregnancy scare.


That might be closer, if this is physical already.
The problem is always that there is no evidence of what kind of affair this is or might be, just some clue that could be read in different ways and many red flags (a lot of smoke, but the fire creating it seems impossible to find)


----------



## bfree

italianjob said:


> Of course Francesco needs to have a long talk with the doctor/OMW as soon as possible, and to see all medical evidence of the appointments and tests that have been done.


Is it absolutely no doubt that this woman gyno is in fact the OMW? Not ex wife. Not sister?

ETA: if it is the OMW is it certain they don't have an open marriage?


----------



## italianjob

bfree said:


> Is it absolutely no doubt that this woman gyno is in fact the OMW? Not ex wife. Not sister?
> 
> ETA: if it is the OMW is it certain they don't have an open marriage?


I asked, Francesco confirmed it is the OMW.

I did bring up that they might be swingers or into threesomes, but I guess that would be harder to find out.


----------



## G.J.

Two very opposed theories 

but the current fact :

She's is now on the pill........................


----------



## manfromlamancha

Its pretty straightforward to get a second opinion on her hormone levels, and whether she really is going through menopause. Francesco could suggest this as a caring husband just to make sure, even if OMW is a leading authority in this field.

That should dispel any doubts about whether she is really menopausal or not. And if not, he could throw in a surprise question (with the assumption that he, Francesco, is the father) and ask could she have been pregnant? It would be interesting to see Francesco's wife's reaction to that.


----------



## turnera

OMW could have been told that her husband was just bringing in a friend from work who was seeing some OTHER guy, and needed the help. It's not like she'd see her H's fingerprints on her body or something.


----------



## Nucking Futs

I like the second opinion idea. Maybe get the second opinion from the gynecologist she saw up until she turned 40. Maybe find out why she didn't go to that dr. in the first place.

More supposition, but if she had a pregnancy scare she may have feared her regular dr might have let it slip to Francesco. And since irregular periods are one of the symptoms of perimenopause, if she is in it and had unprotected sex a pregnancy scare would not be surprising.


----------



## italianjob

turnera said:


> OMW could have been told that her husband was just bringing in a friend from work who was seeing some OTHER guy, and needed the help. It's not like she'd see her H's fingerprints on her body or something.


That's also possible, but it sure would take a awful lot of nerve on his part to do this...

If I had doubts about my mistress being pregnant and my wife was a gyno, I sure would go to another doctor!


----------



## Yeswecan

turnera said:


> Oh, I don't mean about abortion; I mean about a pregnancy scare.


^^^^^My thoughts exactly hence I threw out there hiding a pregnancy like two teenagers.


----------



## Yeswecan

G.J. said:


> Two very opposed theories
> 
> but the current fact :
> 
> She's is now on the pill........................


Not entirely anything suspect. My W was offered the pill once she started perimenopause. It is hormonal therapy and helps make some regularity of the changes with the reproductive system. 

But never the less, the use of the pill does change the dynamics.


----------



## drifting on

What are the laws in Italy regarding healthcare? Are they like the U.S. where we have HIPAA (to give you diarrhea) and the spouse can't call for the medical records? Can Francesco call and meet with this doctor to discuss the care of his spouse or does he need his spouses consent?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## G.J.

Francesco
As well as Football nights looking for a burner phone possibly brought home for the one night from 
work and checking her FB *archive* as explained
Have you been monitoring her all the time the past 2 weeks or was it just this week


----------



## italianjob

drifting on said:


> What are the laws in Italy regarding healthcare? Are they like the U.S. where we have HIPAA (to give you diarrhea) and the spouse can't call for the medical records? Can Francesco call and meet with this doctor to discuss the care of his spouse or does he need his spouses consent?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For privacy reasons doctor can't tell the spouse anything without consent unless the patient is incapacitated. For certain pathologies a primary caregiver can be nominated, usually the spouse (but this would not be the case)


----------



## Yeswecan

At this point without hard evidence and questions it is a stand off. I would suggest asking the hard questions that all here have posted. The hard questions will reveal what is need to be known. If his W hides the doctors' records from him then that in itself is enough to know the information contained within is damning evidence of infidelity has taken place. 

This is a very delicate situation.


----------



## Chaparral

The pregnancy thing is why I asked what they were doing to keep from getting pregnant before.

Perimenapause at her age is not uncommon and low dose birth control can be prescribed.

I just don't understand the secrecy and lying. I don't understand her fearing you would leave her. However, some of the symptoms can kinclude irrational, very emotional behavior.


----------



## Q tip

Chaparral said:


> The pregnancy thing is why I asked what they were doing to keep from getting pregnant before.
> 
> Perimenapause at her age is not uncommon and low dose birth control can be prescribed.
> 
> I just don't understand the secrecy and lying. I don't understand her fearing you would leave her. However, some of the symptoms can kinclude irrational, very emotional behavior.


excuses so far sound like a smoke screen. something for H to hear and want to beleve.

where does she go football nights...? any changes? used to go or does not an longer go? any unexplained absenses from home?

does her paperwork say premenopause or just a scrip for the pill? she and OM shared this with themselves way before H did. why is she not embarrased with this OM pring in


----------



## turnera

Chaparral said:


> I just don't understand the secrecy and lying. I don't understand her fearing you would leave her. However, some of the symptoms can kinclude irrational, very emotional behavior.


I've asked 3 times now what their relationship is like. If he's in any way aggressive or dismissive or critical in general, she exactly WOULD turn to secrecy and lying, to protect herself. I'm not saying he is, just that it's one more possible scenario for what's going on.


----------



## convert

Nucking Futs said:


> I like the second opinion idea. Maybe get the second opinion from the gynecologist she saw up until she turned 40. Maybe find out why she didn't go to that dr. in the first place.
> 
> More supposition, but if she had a pregnancy scare she may have feared her regular dr might have let it slip to Francesco. And since irregular periods are one of the symptoms of perimenopause, if she is in it and had unprotected sex a pregnancy scare would not be surprising.


:iagree:


----------



## convert

Chaparral said:


> *The pregnancy thing is why I asked what they were doing to keep from getting pregnant before*.
> 
> Perimenapause at her age is not uncommon and low dose birth control can be prescribed.
> 
> I just don't understand the secrecy and lying. I don't understand her fearing you would leave her. However, some of the symptoms can kinclude irrational, very emotional behavior.


that is a good question


----------



## 2asdf2

Y'all are scaring the guy away!


----------



## Q tip

Yah, well we dont have enough facts. Neither does Francesco.

This amounts to TAM mind movies to fill in the holes in the story...


----------



## Dyokemm

"I like the second opinion idea. Maybe get the second opinion from the gynecologist she saw up until she turned 40. Maybe find out why she didn't go to that dr. in the first place.

More supposition, but if she had a pregnancy scare she may have feared her regular dr might have let it slip to Francesco. And since irregular periods are one of the symptoms of perimenopause, if she is in it and had unprotected sex a pregnancy scare would not be surprising."

Nucking,

Excellent point here.

Why not her normal doctor?

This vital question has sort of gotten lost in the noise the past couple days, though it was mentioned early on after the gyno visit was revealed.

Good job bringing it back up.


----------



## altawa

Dyokemm said:


> "I like the second opinion idea. Maybe get the second opinion from the gynecologist she saw up until she turned 40. Maybe find out why she didn't go to that dr. in the first place.
> 
> More supposition, but if she had a pregnancy scare she may have feared her regular dr might have let it slip to Francesco. And since irregular periods are one of the symptoms of perimenopause, if she is in it and had unprotected sex a pregnancy scare would not be surprising."
> 
> Nucking,
> 
> Excellent point here.
> 
> Why not her normal doctor?
> 
> This vital question has sort of gotten lost in the noise the past couple days, though it was mentioned early on after the gyno visit was revealed.
> 
> Good job bringing it back up.


Agreed 100%. Very valid question that could answer a lot.


----------



## italianjob

Dyokemm said:


> Why not her normal doctor?
> 
> This vital question has sort of gotten lost in the noise the past couple days, though it was mentioned early on after the gyno visit was revealed.


.

It's probably not so vital, actually. I'll try to explain:
in Italy most Healthcare is done through the National Health Service. If you need to see a specialist you can fix an appointment with a NHS one and the cost will be a fraction of what the same visit would cost in Private Practice.

The problem is you have to wait months to see a specialist in NHS especially if you ask for a specific one.

Most Specialists see patients both in NHS and Private Practice but if you go in Private Practice, paying full cost, you usually get your appointment very fast.

So most women will pay private to see the same gyno when they're very Young and start taking BC, for example, when they're pregnant, or, anyway, when they have a problem or an urgent matter. 

If they just want to do a routine check up they go throug NHS and see whoever is assigned.

So if Francesco's wife has needed only routine visits since the last pregnancy, she probably doesn't have a regular gyno at the moment.

It is actually quite common, and it's common to ask a female friend if she can name a good gyno. So it's completely believable that she asked a female coworker and the coworker named OMW.

I hope I have been clear enough.


----------



## Roselyn

Francesco, I'm a career and married woman at 57 years of age. My friends and I have gone through menopause. Some of us had difficult times and other did not. Women don't go to male co-workers for aid and comfort. We turn to each other for support and advise. If our mothers and female elders are still living, we turn to them for advise.

There is something else going on with your wife and her co-worker. She should be asking for your assistance instead of her male co-worker. My physician stopped prescribing the birth control pill at age 56 after my levels of estrogen was tested. My doctor stated that case studies show that some women can still get pregnant until the age of 60; hence, the estrogen level test.

You have severe trust issues between you and your wife as she is hiding "something" from you. You have your reasons not to confront her. I'm only giving you a background on what women usually do.


----------



## Chaparral

Roselyn said:


> Francesco, I'm a career and married woman at 57 years of age. My friends and I have gone through menopause. Some of us had difficult times and other did not. Women don't go to male co-workers for aid and comfort. We turn to each other for support and advise. If our mothers and female elders are still living, we turn to them for advise.
> 
> There is something else going on with your wife and her co-worker. She should be asking for your assistance instead of her male co-worker. My physician stopped prescribing the birth control pill at age 56 after my levels of estrogen was tested. My doctor stated that case studies show that some women can still get pregnant until the age of 60; hence, the estrogen level test.
> 
> You have severe trust issues between you and your wife as she is hiding "something" from you. You have your reasons not to confront her. I'm only giving you a background on what women usually do.


But most women don't have a man working in their office that's wife is a gynecologist. They also have a socialized health care system where you don't pick your own doctor unless you can pay for private health care it sounds like.

She also doesn't drive to work and om has a govt car I believe, and get her there at lunch.

None of that explains her hiding the visits and lying about it. Or the lunch meetings etc.


----------



## italianjob

In fact, I think that the story she told Francesco is completely believable and quite common, up until the first real appointment with gyno/OMW.

She asked a female coworker, female coworker says: "Hey, OM's wife is a very good gyno, you could ask him to fix an appointment for you", she goes to him and he says: "I'm going to meet her today at lunchtime in her office, why don't you come along so you can talk to her and see if you want to make an appointment". Maybe she sees nothing wrong with this, maybe she finds this a bit inappropriate but hey, she's the one asking favors, after all.

Francesco also mentioned that she said she went to the first appointment with her female coworker.

Up until this point the story holds up quite well, the only strangeness being not telling her husband anything about her problems and the gyno visits. Embarassment and fear of getting old and admitting it to her husband might have a role, and, but we shoul ask women's opinion about this, might offer an explanation of that in these early stages.

I think the holes in this story start from here on:

- Subsequent appointments see OM drive her there every time. Why not going with female co worker anymore? Does OM need to go there every time she has an appointment fixed? 

- As weeks pass, visits pile up, and suspicions about her symptoms start to point to an outcome, I think most women would tell their husband. She doesn't, she instead informs OM of the nature of her issues (she even shows him the paperwork, says Francesco's friend)

- Francesco caught her coming to office after "lunch" with OM in his car, TWICE. She knows Francesco, she knows what he will think but she decides to keep the medical issues a secret. Now, would you really let your spouse think you might be cheating on him if all you had to hide was some embarassment over medical issues (that at this point you know you'll probably need to reveal to him anyway sometime soon)?
Would you lie and say you had gone to lunch if confronted? 

This, the body language on the bench, and the fact that she insisted on keeping a secret that had no motivation for being kept (if THAT is the secret she was keeping) until busted and confronted are the real HUGE red flags in Francesco's ordeal.


----------



## Dogbert

Perhaps Francesco should insist on taking his wife personally to the GYN and introduce himself to the doctor as the husband and observe the reaction. The look on the doctor's face could be very telling if it is one of surprise similar to his wife's when she saw Francesco watching her get out the car with the OM.


----------



## italianjob

Dogbert said:


> Perhaps Francesco should insist on taking his wife personally to the GYN and introduce himself to the doctor as the husband and observe the reaction. The look on the doctor's face could be very telling if it is one of surprise similar to his wife's when she saw Francesco watching her get out the car with the OM.


I think Francesco wants to do something like that and has already arranged to take his wife on her next appointment.

There's been a lot of speculation about the real motivations about these appointments, but, frankly, I think that the time frame and the number of times she went to see the gyno don't fit with abortion or pregnancy scare hypotesis, you don't need to go 5 times to know if you're pregnant.

That is true obviously, if the gyno visits are all true and real, but that should be easy to verify for Francesco because receipts and documentation should exist and be verifiable.
If receipts and documentation confirm everything the secrets run along the doctor visit but are unrelated, unless the doctor/OMW turns out to be an accomplice for some reason.

That is a fascinating hypothesis but I think that most of the time the simpler explanations are more likely to be true.

My personal opinion is that the shared "secret" of the OMW gyno visits has drawn Francesco wife and the OM very close to each other. I don't know if this closeness qualify as a "not EA yet but getting close", "full EA", "EA moving toward a PA" or it's already gone physical. My guess is it's still in the early stages. 

I think so because if they had gone physical they would already have arranged a way to meet Beyond the gyno visits, so this little medical secret would have ceased to be so precious.

I think that the reason why she fought teeth and claws to keep the gyno secret from Francesco is that it was THE private ground for her and the OM to cultivate their relationship.

That, of course, is just my read on it.


----------



## Dogbert

My read is that "deer in the headlights" look on her face could have been an "OMG he's found out!" but when she didn't see him yelling at her or telling her that he knew about her and the OM, she realized that he knew nothing. At this point she and the OM decided to cool things down and behave like they were being watched. I do hope I'm dead wrong about this though.


----------



## bfree

italianjob said:


> .
> 
> It's probably not so vital, actually. I'll try to explain:
> in Italy most Healthcare is done through the National Health Service. If you need to see a specialist you can fix an appointment with a NHS one and the cost will be a fraction of what the same visit would cost in Private Practice.
> 
> The problem is you have to wait months to see a specialist in NHS especially if you ask for a specific one.
> 
> Most Specialists see patients both in NHS and Private Practice but if you go in Private Practice, paying full cost, you usually get your appointment very fast.
> 
> So most women will pay private to see the same gyno when they're very Young and start taking BC, for example, when they're pregnant, or, anyway, when they have a problem or an urgent matter.
> 
> If they just want to do a routine check up they go throug NHS and see whoever is assigned.
> 
> So if Francesco's wife has needed only routine visits since the last pregnancy, she probably doesn't have a regular gyno at the moment.
> 
> It is actually quite common, and it's common to ask a female friend if she can name a good gyno. So it's completely believable that she asked a female coworker and the coworker named OMW.
> 
> I hope I have been clear enough.





italianjob said:


> In fact, I think that the story she told Francesco is completely believable and quite common, up until the first real appointment with gyno/OMW.
> 
> She asked a female coworker, female coworker says: "Hey, OM's wife is a very good gyno, you could ask him to fix an appointment for you", she goes to him and he says: "I'm going to meet her today at lunchtime in her office, why don't you come along so you can talk to her and see if you want to make an appointment". Maybe she sees nothing wrong with this, maybe she finds this a bit inappropriate but hey, she's the one asking favors, after all.
> 
> Francesco also mentioned that she said she went to the first appointment with her female coworker.
> 
> Up until this point the story holds up quite well, the only strangeness being not telling her husband anything about her problems and the gyno visits. Embarassment and fear of getting old and admitting it to her husband might have a role, and, but we shoul ask women's opinion about this, might offer an explanation of that in these early stages.
> 
> I think the holes in this story start from here on:
> 
> - Subsequent appointments see OM drive her there every time. Why not going with female co worker anymore? Does OM need to go there every time she has an appointment fixed?
> 
> - As weeks pass, visits pile up, and suspicions about her symptoms start to point to an outcome, I think most women would tell their husband. She doesn't, she instead informs OM of the nature of her issues (she even shows him the paperwork, says Francesco's friend)
> 
> - Francesco caught her coming to office after "lunch" with OM in his car, TWICE. She knows Francesco, she knows what he will think but she decides to keep the medical issues a secret. Now, would you really let your spouse think you might be cheating on him if all you had to hide was some embarassment over medical issues (that at this point you know you'll probably need to reveal to him anyway sometime soon)?
> Would you lie and say you had gone to lunch if confronted?
> 
> This, the body language on the bench, and the fact that she insisted on keeping a secret that had no motivation for being kept (if THAT is the secret she was keeping) until busted and confronted are the real HUGE red flags in Francesco's ordeal.


Thanks for explaining how the medical profession works in Italy. You're correct, it is plausible that Francesco's wife could have pursued the beginnings of her health journey in the manner it was described to him. However the rest makes no sense unless Francesco is a complete bastard and she felt she couldn't talk to him at all. That doesn't seem likely given that he came here looking for answers and was clearly broken up about his wife's behavior. To me he seems like a caring loving husband. So then her behavior is malicious and damaging at the very least. I pray that she has a satisfactory explanation for these large red flags that have plagues their relationship recently. I guess we'll have to wait until Francesco confronts her and let's us know what happened.


----------



## italianjob

Dogbert said:


> My read is that "deer in the headlights" look on her face could have been an "OMG he's found out!" but when she didn't see him yelling at her or telling her that he knew about her and the OM, she realized that he knew nothing. At this point she and the OM decided to cool things down and behave like they were being watched. I do hope I'm dead wrong about this though.


It could be, as I said their relationship could be anywhere from the early stages of an EA to a full PA.
My read that it's not so advanced is based on the fact that there is the gyno story and that it has been kept a secret until a few days ago.

If she had something far more substantial to hide:
1. she probably wouldn't also hide the gyno visits. The more secrets you keep the higher the chance that one gets discovered. And that could lead to the uncovering of the rest.
2. If she, for any reason, was also hiding the visits she would have used the story the first time around. She "protected" her gyno space with OM, and that makes me think it was what she had at the moment with him and nothing more.

Obviously, all of that is valid provided Francesco does an accurate due diligence on the Gyno story and it means:
- Verify that the doctor IS OMW (and he said he knows for sure)
- Verify that all the appointment dates are documented and have receipts that match, and that medical documentation shows that the issues researched were the ones she claims.
- Verify that all documentation is true and not fabricated, that signatures match and writing is Always the same (if gyno is OMW, OM could have access to letterhead or official stamp)
- Talk to doctor/OMW in great detail, confirming once again all or most of the above.


----------



## 2asdf2

Italianjob:

Don't ever leave this thread! (Not that I think there is a chance that you will.:smthumbup:


----------



## Q tip

italianjob said:


> For privacy reasons doctor can't tell the spouse anything without consent unless the patient is incapacitated. For certain pathologies a primary caregiver can be nominated, usually the spouse (but this would not be the case)


ah, except for OM. he shares, wipes tears, hand holds and delivers medical reports to W.

if a simple doctors visit is secret from Francesco, OM is an open secret, lunches (are NOT doctor visits) hand holding and tears also secret, are there other secrets...?

has there been occasional absences from home or work not accounted for. football nights...


----------



## Q tip

Chaparral said:


> But most women don't have a man working in their office that's wife is a gynecologist. They also have a socialized health care system where you don't pick your own doctor unless you can pay for private health care it sounds like.
> 
> She also doesn't drive to work and om has a govt car I believe, and get her there at lunch.
> 
> None of that explains her hiding the visits and lying about it. Or the lunch meetings etc.


wow.. no taxis in italy. she cant ask her H to arrange a lift.. and lunch on the way back. only 15 minutes late. appointment and all...

when they went off once, the were 75 minutes away from work. is that enough time to leave, park, get doctor appt and return?
maybe lunch too?

while driving her to next appointment, he needs to ask W how she got to doctor before .. then listen for truth or more stories...


----------



## KingwoodKev

Dogbert said:


> My read is that "deer in the headlights" look on her face could have been an "OMG he's found out!" but when she didn't see him yelling at her or telling her that he knew about her and the OM, she realized that he knew nothing. At this point she and the OM decided to cool things down and behave like they were being watched. I do hope I'm dead wrong about this though.


You are wise my friend. Although you sincerely hope you're wrong, because you're a decent dude, we both know you're probably not. Smoke doesn't always mean fire but 99.9% of the time it does.


----------



## Yeswecan

Q tip said:


> wow.. no taxis in italy. she cant ask her H to arrange a lift.. and lunch on the waback. only 15 minutes late. appointment and all...
> 
> when the went off once, the were 75 minutes away from work. is that enough time to leave, park, get doctor appt and return?
> maybe lunch too?
> 
> while driving her to next appointment, he needs to ask W how she got to doctor before .. then listen for truth or more stories...


I'm still trying to fathom this. I have gone to doctor appts with my W numerous times. I know my W would not be asking for a lift to the gynecologist from a male coworker....and if she did I would know about it. Francescos W did this apparently multiple times. :scratchhead:


----------



## KingwoodKev

Yeswecan said:


> I'm still trying to fathom this. I have gone to doctor appts with my W numerous times. I know my W would not be asking for a lift to the gynecologist from a male coworker....and if she did I would know about it. Francescos W did this apparently multiple times. :scratchhead:


Good wives never ask anything outside the office with a male coworker. That's out of bounds.


----------



## wmn1

absolutely Tom and Dyoke, Spaceghost is very decisive over there as was cuckold. He should read both threads


----------



## G.J.

is a good recap from 16th jan



> 16 jan
> Thats right, our lunch times are different. I managed the fist time to o cause my boss needed a ride near her work place, so i taught i surprise her, thats when it was the white face and thats why i decided to return again almost a week after. I had a coworker of mine that covered my back for one hour. that time again they where together. a bit embarrassed.
> *The third time was yesterday *but it was my friend who saw and called me. Today he will repeat it.
> Yes, she has seen me a little pissed a week ago when i first saw it, but i think that since then i kept it cool, in fact she acts normal at home when we are together, doesn't seem to suspect that i am keeping an eye on her





> 16 jan
> I agree. But before i start to say anything i will talk to her but not now. I will wait one more week so i can have more info, today and monday ther will be someone that will be my 3° eye, tuesday i have 2 hours covered and i will go by myself, and if he is still around at lunch time we will talk.... I will talk!





> 16 th jan
> *i just finished talking with my friend..... not good*.
> 
> First thing he didn't call me, he came by my work place. Just that got me a bit upset.
> His eye's didn't look straight at mine, and i knew he felt sorry.
> So this is what happened:
> he got there just when she was cumming out the building with a group of coworkers and yes, the OM also. After a few minutes the group split-up some went to the same place of yesterday, but my wife and the OM decided to go other wear.
> They started walking and where laughing and kidding the whole time. When he saw that they passed the car of the OM without getting in, my friend parked his bike and followed them from distance.
> 15 minutes after they stopped at at fast food nearby, bought a sandwich and sat on a bench. Once they finished they started to talk, the OM seemed concerned with something and what my friend got out off of it was a very confident body language from both. He even passed his hand on her cheek in one occasion and held her hand for a few seconds in another occasion. She didn't mind at all.
> After that they started to walk back to the building 15 minutes before the break was over and then went inside.
> He said that there was many sign's of confidence between them. He said that he didn't like the way she behaved, that there's something more going on. He took some pics of them, unfortunately not the one where he touched her, but good enough to get me pissed.
> He also said that Monday he will have a coworker of his to check out again.
> While he was still talking to my friend, my wife call's me on the cell. God knows where i got the strength to stay calm!
> Once a month on a Friday (the weekend that we go at her parents house) she goes ahead of time to help out her brother that takes care of them (like i wrote before they have health issues just like my parents), we were to go next weekend but her brother called saying that if was possible to switch weeks, and she wanted to know if it was ok. SURE! the only thing i managed to say, and i took it as a sign of God to give me time and not overreact.
> So before i get home she will be at her parents house in a town 1 hour and a half away, and i will see her only tomorrow afternoon when i get to be there with my D15. (she take's D7
> 
> Soooo...... i guess that my wife has some kind of double life. We are her stability, her lunch instead is more then a break!
> I will try to make this weekend the same as always... cant confront yet untill we get back on sunday evening)





> 16th jan
> She doesn't have girls night out, she never wanted one.... say's that the kids need to see us always united in everything!
> I am the only one who takes a night out (home by midnight) on wendsday's for my weekly soccer game.
> Now you understand why I am going nuts! How could it be possible to cheat with this type of thinking?
> The only possible time would be lunch.... in his car!





> 16jan
> Yeah.... lunch dates!
> Don't know about other co-workers knowing, but in the room where she works they a very few, and they get along well. They handle delicate paperwork dealing with public administration fraud,
> corruption and other crap like that.
> Found out that *he is one of the investigators* that pass the paperwork to her. So ther relationship might seem normal to others.... and probably they know how to play it well if it's an affair


Thought id just copy some of the important info as some people are getting the dates a little out when they where saw together

I was looking for the guys job again and low and behold it was an investigator........
So he would be very cute with covering tracks


----------



## Yeswecan

KingwoodKev said:


> Good wives never ask anything outside the office with a male coworker. That's out of bounds.


I can understand help with say a car battery is dead in the company parking lot. Getting a jump with some jumper cables. Simple enough. Incidents similar to this. Getting a ride to the female parts doctor and not bothering to tell H? No sir. That is bizarre as it gets.


----------



## Chaparral

I'm thing to be optimistic but it's really hrad isn't it? She does seem to attached.


----------



## G.J.

> My wife has a female coworker that she knows from years, she also has the celiac disease just like my wife. Back in October my wife first talked with her coworker complaining about the way she was feeling and the suspects she was having, so this friend of hers told her that OM has a wife that is a gynecologist and that she is pretty good at her job. She has a private studio *with another doctor*.
> At that point my wife asked OM if she can have the cell. number. OM told her that he was heading at her office and that if she wanted she can meet her personaly and talk, and my wife agreed. *This was the first time in October*. *My wife said that they only talked to know each other better*, and that my wife would eventually contact her for an appointment.


Another Doctor


OM Has known since Oct as he wife would have told him when she got home what the problem was How believable is it for her not to tell him ?
BUT 
Francesco thinks it was after Oct he posted a few pages back




Francesco said:


> She also called the OMW in front of me to say that she started the pill. Her next appointment will me by mid march, and she is going with me.


Why did she call her in front of you ?
She knows you don't beleave her ?


----------



## drifting on

So did she have a receipt for the October appointment. When was the next appointment? What services rendered? How many charges for talking or consultations? Since the doctor is the OMW could the receipts be altered to consults? Did she talk to Francesco when white faced? Or hurry back inside? I never saw that answer. Is your insurance billed for visits on the days of receipts?

Sorry, just thinking out loud.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## italianjob

drifting on said:


> So did she have a receipt for the October appointment. When was the next appointment? What services rendered? How many charges for talking or consultations? Since the doctor is the OMW could the receipts be altered to consults? Did she talk to Francesco when white faced? Or hurry back inside? I never saw that answer. *Is your insurance billed for visits on the days of receipts?*
> Sorry, just thinking out loud.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There's no Insurance system involved in Italy, at least not in similar fashion to what happens in the USA. Some companies have insurance for their employees but they usually just refund totally or partially receipts or invoices already paid.


----------



## italianjob

G.J. said:


> I was looking for the guys job again and low and behold it was an investigator........
> So he would be very cute with covering tracks


By the nature of the office, if I understood Francesco correctly, he probably investigates financial and aministrative matters.

That's why I was pointing out it might be the case to look very carefully at the receipts, to make sure they aren't counterfeit.


----------



## Chaparral

italianjob said:


> There's no Insurance system involved in Italy, at least not in similar fashion to what happens in the USA. Some companies have insurance for their employees but they usually just refund totally or partially receipts or invoices already paid.


What does your wife think is going on? Does she buy this as being at all possible.

I'm hoping Francesco's wife is just being naïve but I feel the om is trying to play her.


----------



## italianjob

Chaparral said:


> What does your wife think is going on? Does she buy this as being at all possible.
> 
> I'm hoping Francesco's wife is just being naïve but I feel the om is trying to play her.


My wife thinks the story is probably true up to a certain point, but later on something began to happen. 

She suspects that they did go to the doctor a number of times but also used that excuse to go away together without raising too many suspicions among the coworkers. That's why, she thinks, the female coworker was completely taken out from the picture after the first appointment.

She also found quite hard to believe that they were actually at the doctor both times Francesco saw them.

I hope this is documented because it's quite strange, here in Italy, to see a specialist right before Christmas (first time) and right after Epiphany. It's the worst time of the year to go take medical tests, and you usually do only if it's strictly necessary.


----------



## Q tip

and talk to doctor about how many trips and visits your W made. then ask W. but have a plan. if OM is a smart PUA, he'll be very good at game and hiding it. i do hope your friends are watching him separate from your W too.

ETA on second thought you already know they lunch date and drive to doc. how many viisits does it take to determine premenopause. hope you ordered that book too. very good read about premenopause.

doctors can take hormone bloodtests at most an time in a ladies cycle. as long as the know where she is in her cycle, they will know what expected hormone levels will be. so many trips? and knowing these can be non-office hours is a concern.


----------



## Chaparral

drifting on said:


> Francesco
> 
> Hmmm... Lot has gone on. You have so much information to process. I'll try to break this down a little. Gets out of car white faced, of course she would, she just returned from her OBGYN with OM. OM touches her face and holds hands. Body language is confident. Your wife is sharing her most private of health care with OM. Seems they have really gotten close in their relationship. You ask her what she was doing with OM at lunch. She laughs and says I knew you were going to ask about that. Francesco think really hard here, is it worth lying to your face about? She says they were working on papers. Instead she is sharing her private medical concerns with another male.
> 
> She laid in bed with you and still says nothing but her odd comment of wishing you will still be here. Is that because she knows what she is doing is wrong on so many levels. I can only tell you what I would do. She will make an appointment ASAP, you go with and question the doctor about all dates. Why? Cause your wife is lying to your face. You can't trust her. Put her on notice that any major medical condition should be discussed between you two only. So if you had a medical condition, hid it from her, until you get the diagnosis, she would be fine with. Bulls--t. She is only telling you because you asked. That's even worse. She is confiding in him and it needs to stop now. Sorry Francesco but your wife is lying her ass off to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





italianjob said:


> My wife thinks the story is probably true up to a certain point, but later on something began to happen.
> 
> She suspects that they did go to the doctor a number of times but also used that excuse to go away together without raising too many suspicions among the coworkers. That's why, she thinks, the female coworker was completely taken out from the picture after the first appointment.
> 
> She also found quite hard to believe that they were actually at the doctor both times Francesco saw them.
> 
> I hope this is documented because it's quite strange, here in Italy, to see a specialist right before Christmas (first time) and right after Epiphany. It's the worst time of the year to go take medical tests, and you usually do only if it's strictly necessary.


I think this is the closest to the mark. It explains what has been going on and her actions towards Francesco.


----------



## Yeswecan

Q tip said:


> ETA on second thought you already know they lunch date and drive to doc. how many viisits does it take to determine premenopause.


^^^^damn good point. My W visit was exactly one. Then some tests at another facility. Then a phone call for "you need surgery for a cyst." Then one more office visit for pre-surgery and questions she might have. Next stop was the hospital for the actual surgery. 

I can only think they are testing hormonal levels over the past 4-5 months. But again...no telling Franseco and OM transporting his W to the gynecologist. Baffled really. :scratchhead:


----------



## manfromlamancha

Despite no response from Francesco, I am guessing that we are keeping the debate going in the hope that he is still reading these comments and posts and that it may help him be more vigilant and proactive about digging deeper into this? So if you are still reading these, Francesco, please raise your hand?

I posted this first and it was some pages ago:



manfromlamancha said:


> Its pretty straightforward to get a second opinion on her hormone levels, and whether she really is going through menopause. Francesco could suggest this as a caring husband just to make sure, even if OMW is a leading authority in this field.
> 
> That should dispel any doubts about whether she is really menopausal or not. And if not, he could throw in a surprise question (with the assumption that he, Francesco, is the father) and ask could she have been pregnant? It would be interesting to see Francesco's wife's reaction to that.


Did you act on it? Several people here are (correctly I might add) advising you that it is bullsh!t that she should discuss any health issue with another man leave alone confide in him and allow him to touch her face. Are you still not going to dig a little further? Or are you slightly scared that if you continue digging, you might actually find something (quite common with many betrayed men)?


----------



## Q tip

perhaps this menopause story is part of the BS... i do not buy all the trips to a doc for this simple thing.. secrecy is BS on personal issues. hell, i'd even contact the lady who gave a lift for probably the only dr visit. the rest were lunch dates and perhaps off hours "visits" to an empty office...

she just picked up the Pill for other reasons. OM dont like other forms of protection...?

sorry, just TAM mind movies not hearing from OP... hope they're doing OK.

OP does not mention other changes in his W behavior at home. it all just bothers me so much. he does not respond to turneras questions on their relationship. shes asked several times.


----------



## italianjob

I think Francesco wanted to believe there was no more (or very little more, at worst) to the story, maybe he got scared at the nastiest hypothesis we made.
If it's so I hope he doesn't let this go, because the more I look at it, the less convinced I am.

- 5 appointments seem too many for the issues Francesco's wife claimed. They also would be too many for a pregnancy scare, and for an abortion (that would be performed at a clinic anyway). 
- If Francesco comes back it would be interesting to know if receipts have been produced for every one of these 5 visits, and if nothing looks out of place or wrong about those receipts, and if Francesco had the chance to meet the gyno/OMW.
- It's actually not uncommon for doctors here in Italy to buy more than one property in the same building where they have their office. That is why, some posts back, I told Francesco to verify who owns the other apartments in that building.-


----------



## Francesco

Chaparral said:


> Has your wife started acting any differently since she told you what's going on with her?


Finally i have some free time to try and update, although nothing important has happened. I will start from this question, where basically i left my last login.

My wife acts normal, like always. She seems to show some sort of relief and cuddles with me more often, but even before she used to do it, but only now as if she seeks comfort


----------



## Francesco

Chaparral said:


> Did you ask her what her symptoms were?


no, she told me. She said that she had no desire for sex, was intolerant, Hot flashes and night sweats and also headache's.
She was more upset about the non desire for sex, that's why she asked me if i would still be there in the future. Like i had wrote in my earlier posts, we have an average sex of 3 times a week, and she confessed that lately she forced herself for sex just to please me like a wife should do! :scratchhead:


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> have OM followed too. you want to know his behavior too. does he have other girls he helps...?


 i don't know.... but i must admit he seems always friendly with everybody.


----------



## Stillasamountain

italianjob said:


> She also found quite hard to believe that they were actually at the doctor both times Francesco saw them.


I can't get over the astronomical odds of him catching them in the car the first two times he showed up, never mind that those were two (alleged) gyno appointments just days apart.

And, as Turnera and others have pointed out, it should take one appointment, two at the most, to determine menopause.

On the surface there is plausibility... but (to quote you italianjob) there are "dark corners".

ETA: Just saw Francesco's updates. Glad things seem normal for now.


----------



## Francesco

Nucking Futs said:


> When she laughed and said she knew you were going to ask about it and they were just doing paperwork did you see an emotional discomfort in her eyes? You know she was lying to your face that time, are you sure you'll be able to judge the truth based on her reactions?
> 
> You may think we keep going on and on about this but the sad truth is most of the time in a situation like this the BS decides to believe the WS and comes back a year later devastated by finding out the WS was cheating the whole time. We just don't want to see you stop short of the truth, the pain is much worse if you let yourself be fooled.


well she didn't laughed, she smiled. They are actually doing paperwork. He is working on a big investigation case. So she was not lying about that,she just hide the other issue. So no, i did not realize if she was uncomfortable.


----------



## Francesco

turnera said:


> Which details are you lacking?


I do not just look at how one is dressed to judge him.....
what i mean is that i need hard proof and not only assumptions


----------



## drifting on

Did she explain why she replaced you and told OM of important personal information she hid from you? Did you ask her why she leaned on OM when she should have leaned on you? Did you ask why she feels so close to OM to share such personal information over you? Did you ask if she would receptive to you sharing such personal information with another woman? Did you ask why he held her hand? Did you ask why he touched her cheek? Are you satisfied with the reasonings you have been given? Is your gut quiet now or is that flame still burning? Are you ok with her still working this close to him with the personal information she has given him? Good luck, I thought I could handle my WW working with her OM but you will never know the full details, that is why I feel for you Francesco. She has explained nothing and you haven't said if she was even sorry for lying to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on

Francesco said:


> well she didn't laughed, she smiled. They are actually doing paperwork. He is working on a big investigation case. So she was not lying about that,she just hide the other issue. So no, i did not realize if she was uncomfortable.


Read your third sentence Francesco, she lied to you directly!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Francesco

Dogbert said:


> Hard questions such as:
> 
> *Why did you trust a stranger more than you did me, your husband?
> 
> Why did you allow a stranger to physically touch you in ways that are reserved for me, your husband or a close family member? *



yes, these questions will be soon made... just waiting for a better timing


----------



## drifting on

Francesco said:


> Italiano anche te?
> The only other red flag is when at night for less then an hour she posts and checks out facebook.... but i have her contact and she nevers puts post or likes on things that might be alarming. Her phone is never locked, and she leaves it anywhere. Like i said.... if it wasn't for this coworker that gets to my 6th sense i would not be so paranoid.
> I actually told her the other night why she be having lunch with always the same person and not with others, and she just laughed at that saying that she knew that i was going to ask...
> What she said was that they are working on some papers that need to be done very soon, so thats why they have lunch together.
> I think i should cool off for a while and wait


Second paragraph Francesco, "she just laughed at that"...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> I think Francesco's position is:
> 
> - if he should find out this is a PA he thinks he will end the marriage.
> 
> - if he should find this is a boundary issue o an EA in any stage he will confront with the intention of working on the issues.
> 
> He's continuing the surveillance and is letting his wife think he's mostly content with the explanations he got, so she will feel safe enough to not take things further underground.
> 
> The problem is, he is more or less where he started. There are huge red flags but seemingly no evidence of anything more than repeated and continuous inappropriate behavior. It's obvious there are secrets being kept but little evidence of the secrets themselves.
> 
> If he find no more proof I guess he will put his foot down and confront her about her EA (or beginning of a EA) with OM, but he is afraid that there is more (something physical), and that the confrontation will take it underground never to be found.
> 
> By the time he will be ready to confront I think we could help him compile a list of the things he needs to go into details with his wife.


you nailed it. 
The only part that is not correct is this:

- if he should find this is a boundary issue o an EA in any stage he will confront with the intention of working on the issues.

I will confront and then take a break from our marriage, not work on any issues for at least a long period


----------



## Francesco

G.J. said:


> The other point I made earlier in this thread was on football nights it would be an ideal time to take a burner
> phone home from work and take it back to work in her handbag the following day


since my dada is in tha hospital, i haven't played soccer. it's now almost 3 weeks


----------



## Q tip

PHP:


M




Francesco said:


> since my dada is in tha hospital, i haven't played soccer. it's now almost 3 weeks


Did she *always* go with you on soccer nights..?


----------



## Suspecting2014

Francesco

Why dont you go and meet the ginecologist and ask her about your wife?? You can tell her that you are really concened about her healt and that she was hiding the probelms, so you would really ant to know how is she doing.

This way you can see the dates and if there were other sintoms loke pregnancy!!!

I belive it is nothing but a lack of boundaries, hope you find it rigth away


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> I think Francesco wants to do something like that and has already arranged to take his wife on her next appointment.
> 
> There's been a lot of speculation about the real motivations about these appointments, but, frankly, I think that the time frame and the number of times she went to see the gyno don't fit with abortion or pregnancy scare hypotesis, you don't need to go 5 times to know if you're pregnant.
> 
> That is true obviously, if the gyno visits are all true and real, but that should be easy to verify for Francesco because receipts and documentation should exist and be verifiable.
> If receipts and documentation confirm everything the secrets run along the doctor visit but are unrelated, unless the doctor/OMW turns out to be an accomplice for some reason.
> 
> That is a fascinating hypothesis but I think that most of the time the simpler explanations are more likely to be true.
> 
> My personal opinion is that the shared "secret" of the OMW gyno visits has drawn Francesco wife and the OM very close to each other. I don't know if this closeness qualify as a "not EA yet but getting close", "full EA", "EA moving toward a PA" or it's already gone physical. My guess is it's still in the early stages.
> 
> I think so because if they had gone physical they would already have arranged a way to meet Beyond the gyno visits, so this little medical secret would have ceased to be so precious.
> 
> I think that the reason why she fought teeth and claws to keep the gyno secret from Francesco is that it was THE private ground for her and the OM to cultivate their relationship.
> 
> That, of course, is just my read on it.


Once again you nailed it! The first part is exactly my plans.
The second part bothers me but it's an option that i must understand might be..


----------



## turnera

Stillasamountain said:


> I can't get over the *astronomical odds* of him catching them in the car the first two times he showed up, never mind that those were two (alleged) gyno appointments just days apart.


Worth repeating. Especially since Francesco almost never shows up there.


----------



## italianjob

Francesco said:


> you nailed it.
> The only part that is not correct is this:
> 
> - if he should find this is a boundary issue o an EA in any stage he will confront with the intention of working on the issues.
> 
> I will confront and then take a break from our marriage, not work on any issues for at least a long period


Have you thought about the whole story and the discrepancies? What is your take on it?
I mean... it's obvious you hope it's nothing or at least almost nothing and you fear it's a PA... But if you should make an "honest" guess, like if it was somebody else, what would be your opinion on this?


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> It could be, as I said their relationship could be anywhere from the early stages of an EA to a full PA.
> My read that it's not so advanced is based on the fact that there is the gyno story and that it has been kept a secret until a few days ago.
> 
> If she had something far more substantial to hide:
> 1. she probably wouldn't also hide the gyno visits. The more secrets you keep the higher the chance that one gets discovered. And that could lead to the uncovering of the rest.
> 2. If she, for any reason, was also hiding the visits she would have used the story the first time around. She "protected" her gyno space with OM, and that makes me think it was what she had at the moment with him and nothing more.
> 
> Obviously, all of that is valid provided Francesco does an accurate due diligence on the Gyno story and it means:
> - Verify that the doctor IS OMW (and he said he knows for sure)
> - Verify that all the appointment dates are documented and have receipts that match, and that medical documentation shows that the issues researched were the ones she claims.
> - Verify that all documentation is true and not fabricated, that signatures match and writing is Always the same (if gyno is OMW, OM could have access to letterhead or official stamp)
> - Talk to doctor/OMW in great detail, confirming once again all or most of the above.


Bravo! si vede che sei italiano!
TRANSLATION: EXACTLY WHAT I WILL DO. :smthumbup:


----------



## turnera

So what day is that next appointment?


----------



## Francesco

drifting on said:


> Did she explain why she replaced you and told OM of important personal information she hid from you? Did you ask her why she leaned on OM when she should have leaned on you? Did you ask why she feels so close to OM to share such personal information over you? Did you ask if she would receptive to you sharing such personal information with another woman? Did you ask why he held her hand? Did you ask why he touched her cheek? Are you satisfied with the reasonings you have been given? Is your gut quiet now or is that flame still burning? Are you ok with her still working this close to him with the personal information she has given him? Good luck, I thought I could handle my WW working with her OM but you will never know the full details, that is why I feel for you Francesco. She has explained nothing and you haven't said if she was even sorry for lying to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have not confronted fully... we are still at the point on what she told me and what she thinks i only know.
Friday we have an appointment made upon my request. I only told her to bring all the papers, because i needed to talk with OMW. When i will have a perfect match of timelines and papers i will confront my wife once outside


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> PHP:
> 
> 
> M
> 
> Did she *always* go with you on soccer nights..?


not always, but many times. She say's that she loves to watch especially with other wifes or G.F


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> Have you thought about the whole story and the discrepancies? What is your take on it?
> I mean... it's obvious you hope it's nothing or at least almost nothing and you fear it's a PA... But if you should make an "honest" guess, like if it was somebody else, what would be your opinion on this?


Thank you for the question.
I think that it's close to be an EA. I find it hard to believe it would be a PA, also because her guilt would be more obvious.
She knows i can see trough things..... she sensed that i am pissed, but with what is going on with my dad (and this last week also my mother) she doesn't know for sure for what


----------



## Francesco

turnera said:


> So what day is that next appointment?


 Friday the 20 at my lunch break. She will be taking the afternoon off


----------



## italianjob

Francesco said:


> Thank you for the question.
> I think that it's close to be an EA. I find it hard to believe it would be a PA, also because her guilt would be more obvious.
> She knows i can see trough things..... she sensed that i am pissed, but with what is going on with my dad (and this last week also my mother) she doesn't know for sure for what


Do you have the impression she feels guilty over this story, not in a "PA guilty" sense but as in "she knows she was inappropriate, doesn't want to talk about it, is afraid will come up"?

How did she react to your request of an appointment with the gyno? What Did you think about her reaction?


ETA: Your mother has had problems too? I'm sorry, in bocca al lupo! Sadly, I know something about this kind of problems...


----------



## Francesco

So, to sum the whole situation friday will be an important day for me. Talking with OMW will give me many answers. 
The other answers i will have from confronting her of what i know on our way back home.
On these past days she is been helpful with my father, also very close to me on days where it seemed that my father was in danger. I also had a intensive stress at work...
But now slowly i'm feeling better.


----------



## drifting on

Francesco

Have your wife ask for a complete copy of her medical chart that you can take with. I'm not sure if you intended to do that. Also understand that her behavior is loyal to OM and not you so be prepared to hear how concerned he was of her health scare and that he is only a friend. I wish you well but this is far into an EA with her discussing her private health with OM and still lying to you. She will talk to OM and he may have a discussion with his wife that you are a crazy jealous husband and not give you too much information. Hence the full copy of her medical chart including consultations. Your wife will be coached all week by OM so she will be very resistant to take those walls down. 

My WW would begin to weaken on the weekends whenever OM wasn't in her ear coaching her. You will be in the same spot. I suggest listening to her very intently this week but speak very few words. Start making her feel uneasy as to what you are going through, don't let on if its your dad or her. Just be quiet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

Edited for spelling.


----------



## Q tip

huge concern is that she only admits to what she thinks you know. trickle truth is a curse of cheaters..

have a plan for confront, you control and own it. write it down. her replacing you with Mr. Tear Wiping Hand Holder is unacceptable regardless of her excuses. her actions, not words matter here. her actions sre not good. words only cover. she needs to own her behavior.

consider that the more she defends him and excuses herself the worse it might be. also, her lack of sex with you maybe loyalty to him. extreme, but keep in mind.


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> Do you have the impression she feels guilty over this story, not in a "PA guilty" sense but as in "she knows she was inappropriate, doesn't want to talk about it, is afraid will come up"?
> 
> How did she react to your request of an appointment with the gyno? What Did you think about her reaction?
> 
> 
> ETA: Your mother has had problems too? I'm sorry, in bocca al lupo! Sadly, I know something about this kind of problems...


Yes.... i think she sensed that it was better to talk with me first. She has this strange behavior that even if she did wrong it wasn't nothing to be worried about. 
When i told her Saturday to get another appointment she first said it was still early, but when i said that i needed to talk with OMW she called her on the cell. and got the appointment.

My mother has a paraparesis myelitis. In a few words she is paralyzed from the basin to the legs. This last week she has had problems and needs to be hospitalized for rehabilitation


----------



## Francesco

drifting on said:


> Francesco
> 
> Have your wife ask for a complete copy of her medical chart that you can take with. I'm not sure if you intended to do that. Also understand that her behavior is loyal to OM and not you so be prepared to hear how concerned he was of her health scare and that he is only a friend. I wish you well but this is far into an EA with her discussing her private health with OM and still lying to you. She will talk to OM and he may have a discussion with his wife that you are a crazy jealous husband and not give you too much information. Hence the full copy of her medical chart including consultations. Your wife will be coached all week by OM so she will be very resistant to take those walls down.
> 
> My WW would begin to weaken on the weekends whenever OM wasn't in her ear coaching her. You will be in the same spot. I suggest listening to her very intently this week but speak very few words. Start making her feel uneasy as to what you are going through, don't let on if its your dad or her. Just be quiet.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> Edited for spelling.


checked all!


----------



## italianjob

Have you seen the receipts for the visits? Or will she produce them on Friday?

I think TAMMERS might use these few days trying to round up the things Francesco needs absolutely to bring up when he talks to his wife on Friday.


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> Friday the 20 at my lunch break. She will be taking the afternoon off


afternoon off? why. its just a doctors appt. how many other afternoons off has she taken...? do you have pay records?


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> Have you seen the receipts for the visits? Or will she produce them on Friday?
> 
> I think TAMMERS might use these few days trying to round up the things Francesco needs absolutely to bring up when he talks to his wife on Friday.


yes she has shown me


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> afternoon off? why. its just a doctors appt. how man other afternoons off has she taken...? do you have pay records?


we have different hours of lunch breaks, mine is latter then hers, so it was not worth going back to work for her. Also this weekend she will go at her parents town and like usual she leavs on fridays then i reach her on saturdays


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> Thank you for the question.
> I think that it's close to be an EA. I find it hard to believe it would be a PA, also because her guilt would be more obvious.
> She knows i can see trough things..... she sensed that i am pissed, but with what is going on with my dad (and this last week also my mother) she doesn't know for sure for what


don't assume too little. a good OM can coach and help her understand he is there only to care and clear guilt away. its part of his charm... i mean after all, its her personal issues shes sharing with him..


----------



## Tobyboy

I'm calling BS on all her symptoms!!! If she felt all these since at least October, why the long diagnoses and priscription? Damn, she just keeps digging a deeper hole.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> we have different hours of lunch breaks, mine is latter then hers, so it was not worth going back to work for her. Also this weekend she will go at her parents town and like usual she leavs on fridays then i reach her on saturdays


friday night free from you then... hope i just whisper things and not loudly to you.


----------



## G.J.

Francesco Is *anyone keeping watch *at dinner?


----------



## G.J.

Q tip said:


> afternoon off? why. its just a doctors appt. *how many other afternoons off has she taken...? do you have pay records?*


This may reveal a lot if Francesco could find out her record


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> yes she has shown me


you need to confirm these with doctors records.


----------



## Yeswecan

drifting on said:


> Francesco
> 
> Have your wife ask for a complete copy of her medical chart that you can take with. I'm not sure if you intended to do that. Also understand that her behavior is loyal to OM and not you so be prepared to hear how concerned he was of her health scare and that he is only a friend. I wish you well but this is far into an EA with her discussing her private health with OM and still lying to you. She will talk to OM and he may have a discussion with his wife that you are a crazy jealous husband and not give you too much information. Hence the full copy of her medical chart including consultations. Your wife will be coached all week by OM so she will be very resistant to take those walls down.
> 
> My WW would begin to weaken on the weekends whenever OM wasn't in her ear coaching her. You will be in the same spot. I suggest listening to her very intently this week but speak very few words. Start making her feel uneasy as to what you are going through, don't let on if its your dad or her. Just be quiet.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> Edited for spelling.



-Drifting on has some excellent points. I suspect you W behavior will change as Friday approaches. Perhaps attempt to cancel the appointment. 
-While at the doctors just drop a nice, "thank you" to the OMW(the doctor) for him taking your W to these appointments as well as LUNCH numerous times and the park were they can spend time together. Attempt to do this out of earshot of your W. OM can start explaining to his W when she gets home.


----------



## Q tip

this OM is sticking his nose where it does not belong. he must know how sensitive and vulnerable a female is at this point in her life. sounds to me he is niceing her and wants to prove how desireable she is to other men.

given the chance... no wait, he has already... private lunches, quiet time alone to wipe tears... shes going along with it all.

she will defend him lightly. be prepared to be there for her and replace this charlatan.


----------



## Q tip

Yeswecan said:


> -Drifting on has some excellent points. I suspect you W behavior will change as Friday approaches. Perhaps attempt to cancel the appointment.
> -While at the doctors just drop a nice, "thank you" to the OMW(the doctor) for him taking your W to these appointments as well as LUNCH numerous times and the park were they can spend time together. Attempt to do this out of earshot of your W. OM can start explaining to his W when she gets home.


my note (if any) would be anything but thankful. but thats how i roll. francesco had better have a list of all appts from this day on. and perhaps arrange to see if she takes a taxi or OM every time. also ask doc why it takes so many trips for this. what else was she there for.

my fear is there were not that many trips to the doc.


----------



## italianjob

About meeting the doctor:

- Even before the appointment, look again closely at the receipts and all the documentation you already have, try to be as sure as possible that it's all authentic.

- When you talk to the doctor, don't be inquisitive. You should try to sound as if you're only worried about your wife's health and well being. You don't want the doctor to think you're an arrogant control freak, but a concerned husband. Your "line" should be that you fear your wife is not telling you the Whole truth because she doesn't want to upset you since you're already having health problems with your parents IMO.

- As an example, you need most of all to understand why she had 5 appointments to diagnose a problem that should have been diagnosed in 2 meetings, 3 tops. If you put it like that it will sound like you're criticizing the doctor's professional competence, and you might not get an answer. If you say that 5 appointments make you worry that there were more issues than she's telling you, that might win the doctor's sympathy and earn you a thorough explanation. 


- About the confrontation:

Unless something big happens in the doctor's office (of the kind: "5 appointments? This is only the 3rd time I see your wife") I don't think you should confront on the way home, if after that you have to go back to work. You have to: let whatever the doctor says sink in and connect to the other facts you know, make all the right questions, thinking accurately about how to word them, ask explanation first about what she knows you know and only later about what she doesn't know you know.
To do this you need time, you don't want to let the cat out and then have to interrupt to go to work. That way she will have time to get her act together, and contact the OM to get their stories straight if needed.
If I were you I would either take the half day off or postpone the confrontation a few hours so you have the time to do it properly without her getting "saved by the bell".

One last thing: you might still be "in the middle of the road" after all this, still not sure if she's telling you the Whole truth or not. That's why you shouldn't disclose your means of surveillance yet, IMO, you might need them again. Try to come up with a different explanation of your knowing about the bench touching for example (maybe tammers can help you with that  )


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> About meeting the doctor:
> 
> - Even before the appointment, look again closely at the receipts and all the documentation you already have, try to be as sure as possible that it's all authentic.
> 
> - When you talk to the doctor, don't be inquisitive. You should try to sound as if you're only worried about your wife's health and well being. You don't want the doctor to think you're an arrogant control freak, but a concerned husband. Your "line" should be that you fear your wife is not telling you the Whole truth because she doesn't want to upset you since you're already having health problems with your parents IMO.
> 
> - As an example, you need most of all to understand why she had 5 appointments to diagnose a problem that should have been diagnosed in 2 meetings, 3 tops. If you put it like that it will sound like you're criticizing the doctor's professional competence, and you might not get an answer. If you say that 5 appointments make you worry that there were more issues than she's telling you, that might win the doctor's sympathy and earn you a thorough explanation.
> 
> 
> - About the confrontation:
> 
> Unless something big happens in the doctor's office (of the kind: "5 appointments? This is only the 3rd time I see your wife") I don't think you should confront on the way home, if after that you have to go back to work. You have to: let whatever the doctor says sink in and connect to the other facts you know, make all the right questions, thinking accurately about how to word them, ask explanation first about what she knows you know and only later about what she doesn't know you know.
> To do this you need time, you don't want to let the cat out and then have to interrupt to go to work. That way she will have time to get her act together, and contact the OM to get their stories straight if needed.
> If I were you I would either take the half day off or postpone the confrontation a few hours so you have the time to do it properly without her getting "saved by the bell".
> 
> One last thing: you might still be "in the middle of the road" after all this, still not sure if she's telling you the Whole truth or not. That's why you shouldn't disclose your means of surveillance yet, IMO, you might need them again. Try to come up with a different explanation of your knowing about the bench touching for example (maybe tammers can help you with that  )


exactly my plan! Also i will tell OMW that she has a caring husband and to thank him for me for being always present to help. I will say it in a innocent way, but in order to make my wife glance at me.

As for confronting on our way back, i am having second taught s.. i will first see how the appointment goes and take it from there.
surveillance is still on.... not every day but at least 3 times a week.


----------



## Chaparral

So they no longer are having lunch together that you know of? Is she still going out to lunch with her girl friend coworkers?

Unfortunately, listing the symptoms does not make me more comfortable. For one thing, you haven't noticed them. She could be holding that against you for not being sensitive to her. They may not be real since it looks like you would notice something.

Saying she has to force herself to have sex now could also be taken two ways. Everything that happens with her could be taken two ways. Is she enjoying sex or faking it?

Its still over the top she got another man to take her to something so personal and emotional as her gynecological appointments. I just can't get over that. Then sitting and talking to him about it is just too much.


----------



## Chaparral

As far as the bench touching goes, when you get to a point to bring it up and you're concerned about how close they are, ask her if its true they were holding hands on x day and he was caressing her cheek. You know its true but she has the choice to tell the truth or say it didn't happen.

Its good they haven't been seen together since, but it is also very odd they total quit since they know theyve been seen together.

Do not let her know she's been watched ever. She needs to be unsure of that and this could just be a break they are taking. Never give up your sources. No matter how this works out, she has lied out right and kept secrets from you about the other man's involvement in personal/family issues for no good reason.


----------



## drifting on

Francesco

Just a couple things you may want to be aware of. Any vacation time used at work by your wife? If no vacation was used are her pay checks the same? Do you have direct deposit? Are each pay period the same? Does she get a pay stub or is it online? Do you have access? My WW had no lost time from work or home. No differences in pay as it all occurred on her lunch break, hence why I hate lunch now. During lovemaking does she keep her eyes closed more than usual? Personal and I apologize but I never thought about that until after the affair ended. My WW did close her eyes more, which is why I say to listen intently to what she says to you. 

Also have you noticed if your wife is more affectionate at different times. That was a big clue I never saw. When she is more affectionate it means there was a riff between her and OM. Also the weekends where OM wasn't in her ear she became more civil towards me. Do you notice if during the beginning if the week is she more irritable? Also what do the receipts from the doctor tell you or are they just a receipt for payment? Sometimes the reason for the visit is listed. I wish you well Francesco, I'll keep an eye on your thread but to be honest I have to stay away a little as your story triggers me hard. Best of luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> exactly my plan! Also i will tell OMW that she has a caring husband and to thank him for me for being always present to help. I will say it in a innocent way, but in order to make my wife glance at me.
> 
> As for confronting on our way back, i am having second taught s.. i will first see how the appointment goes and take it from there.
> surveillance is still on.... not every day but at least 3 times a week.


thanking OMW for her H help means you approve of your W relationship with OM... take care with that. you need to make sure your W understands later that is not true..


----------



## Q tip

i still feel some end goals, regardless of how you get there are:

- NC with tear wiping OM. No lunch dates, no benches, no personal communication. ONLY as necessary for work related tasks only. can she transfer away from his workflow? not even a brief update on how her pill is working. (i am still very angry over this).

- get another doctor. this is just too much. the fact you would accept this is a bad signal, so find another doc, or go back to her original one.

- discuss boundaries. boundaries are what protects a couple and marriage from the toxins in the world. it stops both of you from poisoning your marriage. you see a lot of toxic people out there and how PUA work. it would be good to know and recognize this and the slippery slope that one can be drawn down just a bit at a time. with strong boundaries and lots of communication, trust, love and growth can take place unhindered. you yourself have experienced what happens when boundaries and communication break down. secrets build up until its too late.

- mate guarding matters.

- spending any emotional investment with OSF is a very bad sign on several levels. OSF are not a good idea.

- she simply needs to understand her behavior is unacceptable to your marriage and all you have built together. you will not stand for it. she needs to take responsibility not words, but actions.

- tell her you love her. you care for her. she tore a hole in your heart sharing close personal intimate things that people told you about..

---* keep all your information gathering tools and people completely to yourself. i know this is a secret but you cannot let her know how you know what you know. ever. hopefully, she will admit these details as you speak. play chess, not checkers. she is not your enemy


----------



## Francesco

Chaparral said:


> So they no longer are having lunch together that you know of? Is she still going out to lunch with her girl friend coworkers?
> 
> Unfortunately, listing the symptoms does not make me more comfortable. For one thing, you haven't noticed them. She could be holding that against you for not being sensitive to her. They may not be real since it looks like you would notice something.
> 
> Saying she has to force herself to have sex now could also be taken two ways. Everything that happens with her could be taken two ways. Is she enjoying sex or faking it?
> 
> Its still over the top she got another man to take her to something so personal and emotional as her gynecological appointments. I just can't get over that. Then sitting and talking to him about it is just too much.


last week they had lunch together but with other coworkers. my friend only checked in 3 times.
for the rest i can see your point.... but that situation has not happened. She cant say that i did not notice cause i would replay saying she is a good actress, same reason if she would be faking....
When she told me about OM she just let it seem like no big deal... she doesn't know what i know, but for her it is something normal... cant really explane it better.


----------



## Francesco

drifting on said:


> Francesco
> 
> Just a couple things you may want to be aware of. Any vacation time used at work by your wife? If no vacation was used are her pay checks the same? Do you have direct deposit? Are each pay period the same? Does she get a pay stub or is it online? Do you have access? My WW had no lost time from work or home. No differences in pay as it all occurred on her lunch break, hence why I hate lunch now. During lovemaking does she keep her eyes closed more than usual? Personal and I apologize but I never thought about that until after the affair ended. My WW did close her eyes more, which is why I say to listen intently to what she says to you.
> 
> Also have you noticed if your wife is more affectionate at different times. That was a big clue I never saw. When she is more affectionate it means there was a riff between her and OM. Also the weekends where OM wasn't in her ear she became more civil towards me. Do you notice if during the beginning if the week is she more irritable? Also what do the receipts from the doctor tell you or are they just a receipt for payment? Sometimes the reason for the visit is listed. I wish you well Francesco, I'll keep an eye on your thread but to be honest I have to stay away a little as your story triggers me hard. Best of luck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


hello D.O
No, no vacations without me knowing about, we share the same period of vacation in the summer always.
Paychecks are always the same, and i have full access to the online banking.
About keeping her eye's open or not... most of the time they are closed, but it all depends on the moment. I close mine often also....
In this period she is very affectionate, my father means alot to me. He is a living example.... he has taught me my education by being himself the example of life. He lived in a broken household when he was young... he remembers well the 2 WW and all he went trough in his life. My wife knows this very well and she is close to me during this hard period. BTW now he is feeling better


----------



## tom67

Good news on your father.
I hope Friday you find out there is nothing to be worried about and can go back to a "normal" life whatever that is.


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> thanking OMW for her H help means you approve of your W relationship with OM... take care with that. you need to make sure your W understands later that is not true..


No, thanking OMW will assure me:
1) that OMW fully knows how close they have been
2) TELLS MY WIFE THAT I MIGHT KNOW MORE then what she thinks
3) makes them both understand (OMW and my W) that now I am in charge and that OMW will need to share with me further communications.

Also.... with me saying that will for sure make my W. understand my double sense, it's an Italian way to make them have the message.


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> i still feel some end goals, regardless of how you get there are:
> 
> - NC with tear wiping OM. No lunch dates, no benches, no personal communication. ONLY as necessary for work related tasks only. can she transfer away from his workflow? not even a brief update on how her pill is working. (i am still very angry over this).
> 
> - get another doctor. this is just too much. the fact you would accept this is a bad signal, so find another doc, or go back to her original one.
> 
> - discuss boundaries. boundaries are what protects a couple and marriage from the toxins in the world. it stops both of you from poisoning your marriage. you see a lot of toxic people out there and how PUA work. it would be good to know and recognize this and the slippery slope that one can be drawn down just a bit at a time. with strong boundaries and lots of communication, trust, love and growth can take place unhindered. you yourself have experienced what happens when boundaries and communication break down. secrets build up until its too late.
> 
> - mate guarding matters.
> 
> - spending any emotional investment with OSF is a very bad sign on several levels. OSF are not a good idea.
> 
> - she simply needs to understand her behavior is unacceptable to your marriage and all you have built together. you will not stand for it. she needs to take responsibility not words, but actions.
> 
> - tell her you love her. you care for her. she tore a hole in your heart sharing close personal intimate things that people told you about..
> 
> ---* keep all your information gathering tools and people completely to yourself. i know this is a secret but you cannot let her know how you know what you know. ever. hopefully, she will admit these details as you speak. play chess, not checkers. she is not your enemy



Yes to all. But only after my confrontation.... and partially after my confession


----------



## drifting on

Francesco

Happy to hear the good news of your dad, I wish him a full and speedy recovery.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Francesco

drifting on said:


> Francesco
> 
> Happy to hear the good news of your dad, I wish him a full and speedy recovery.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


thank you...


----------



## drifting on

Francesco said:


> No, thanking OMW will assure me:
> 1) that OMW fully knows how close they have been
> 2) TELLS MY WIFE THAT I MIGHT KNOW MORE then what she thinks
> 3) makes them both understand (OMW and my W) that now I am in charge and that OMW will need to share with me further communications.
> 
> Also.... with me saying that will for sure make my W. understand my double sense, it's an Italian way to make them have the message.



I understand the double meaning and the Italian way. My WW family is Italian and her aunts brother lives in Italy. If we wish to visit with her brother we have to go to Italy as the last time he came here he was put on the next plane back to Italy and never made it close to the doors of the airport. I will tell you it is not a myth that they empty a restaurant at dinner. Very unsettling to say the least. Make sure the OMW understands the double meaning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Divinely Favored

Are you sure it is his wife? or could the good doctor Be an ex or an unmarried sister or a female family member/SIL


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> No, thanking OMW will assure me:
> 1) that OMW fully knows how close they have been
> 2) TELLS MY WIFE THAT I MIGHT KNOW MORE then what she thinks
> 3) makes them both understand (OMW and my W) that now I am in charge and that OMW will need to share with me further communications.
> 
> Also.... with me saying that will for sure make my W. understand my double sense, it's an Italian way to make them have the message.


you hope. i am not Italian and dont know the culture. where I am means its OK that you know. unless its made clear.


----------



## Francesco

Divinely Favored said:


> Are you sure it is his wife? or could the good doctor Be an ex or an unmarried sister or a female family member/SIL



absolutely certain! they have 3 kids.


----------



## Francesco

drifting on said:


> I understand the double meaning and the Italian way. My WW family is Italian and her aunts brother lives in Italy. If we wish to visit with her brother we have to go to Italy as the last time he came here he was put on the next plane back to Italy and never made it close to the doors of the airport. I will tell you it is not a myth that they empty a restaurant at dinner. Very unsettling to say the least. Make sure the OMW understands the double meaning.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



yeah we are a good fork, not for nothing Italy has the best food in the world. I myself have a hard time staying in shape.


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> you hope. i am not Italian and dont know the culture. where I am means its OK that you know. unless its made clear.


Let me give you an example....
We are a bit more mischievous, my wife knows how i am and if i say to a 3° person witch i want to compliment something like: " Congratulations or that's great" she knows that i am faking it!
Because when i really mean what is meant, I would say: "I wish you all the happiness from the bottom of my heart".

So me mentioning OM and his help given, my W. knows that i don't for sure mean it, and the OMW would probably sense it also.

Of course i will always have a smile on my face.

This is not much of a culture, but being able to read between the lines


----------



## Chaparral

Its a mistake to ever admit you had her followed. Tell her you've heard rumors and some people have seen them together. You know she lied about some things out right and by omission. Keeping your sources secret is just good sense and protecting your family. All IS fair in love and war.

Telling her she's been followed may destroy your relation ship and may keep things hidden you weren't able to find out.

We are telling you this from much experience here.


----------



## Chaparral

You might even tell her you came to lunch two other times and she was already headed out with om.

If everything had turned out totally innocent it might be different but things are not totally innocent.


----------



## turnera

How long are you going to wait, Francesco?


----------



## italianjob

Chaparral said:


> Its a mistake to ever admit you had her followed. Tell her you've heard rumors and some people have seen them together. You know she lied about some things out right and by omission. Keeping your sources secret is just good sense and protecting your family. All IS fair in love and war.
> 
> Telling her she's been followed may destroy your relation ship and may keep things hidden you weren't able to find out.
> 
> We are telling you this from much experience here.


I agree with this, it seems unlikely that all will be known and revealed on confrontation day (Friday or Saturday I guess) so don't uncover your sources.

Make up a story for the bench episode, somebody saw them or a thing like that.


----------



## italianjob

Francesco said:


> Also.... with me saying that will for sure make my W. understand my double sense, it's an Italian way to make them have the message.


I guess Francesco here is referencing an Italian proverb: "Parlare a Nuora perché Suocera intenda" that would have a literal translation in "Speaking to the Daughter-In-Law so that the Mother-In-Law understands". The formulation is embedded in Italian culture but the meaning has two different interpretations: one is to tell something to someone that you know will pass the message to the person you want to reach even if you don't ask to do so and don't even mention that person; the other, which is the one I think Francesco is referencing is to say something to a person in a conversation loud and blatantly enough so that another specific person in the room gets an "hidden message" that you want that person to get and that they'll understand.

In this case, Francesco's wife will know that her tight connection to the OM hasn't gone unnoticed...

I hope I read Francesco's intentions right


----------



## Q tip

never reveal your sources. rumors and friends see her is as much as you should ever say. if its innocent, she will not like these people. you will have unecessarily exposed them to her. if really bad thing, you'll want to protect them too. dont hurt your friends.

there is nothing for you to confess. make our statement and listen listen more than speak. she only admits to what you know. you want to know more. all of it.


----------



## Q tip

turnera said:


> How long are you going to wait, Francesco?


he said friday is doctor visit. he was going to confront in car ride home, but everyone said to wait until home. but not at a time when he has to go back to work shortly after a confront.

i hope, if he does go back to work, he has a VAR in the house to see if she calls OM or anyone and what she says. this might not be over yet.


----------



## Tobyboy

Make sure she is watched at lunch today and tomorrow!!!


----------



## Francesco

Chaparral said:


> Its a mistake to ever admit you had her followed. Tell her you've heard rumors and some people have seen them together. You know she lied about some things out right and by omission. Keeping your sources secret is just good sense and protecting your family. All IS fair in love and war.
> 
> Telling her she's been followed may destroy your relation ship and may keep things hidden you weren't able to find out.
> 
> We are telling you this from much experience here.



YES.... good points. ok i will do like you said


----------



## Francesco

turnera said:


> How long are you going to wait, Francesco?


Friday after the appointment. I will start talking about her problems, then about OM. I will do it the way Chaparral suggested.


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> I guess Francesco here is referencing an Italian proverb: "Parlare a Nuora perché Suocera intenda" that would have a literal translation in "Speaking to the Daughter-In-Law so that the Mother-In-Law understands". The formulation is embedded in Italian culture but the meaning has two different interpretations: one is to tell something to someone that you know will pass the message to the person you want to reach even if you don't ask to do so and don't even mention that person; the other, which is the one I think Francesco is referencing is to say something to a person in a conversation loud and blatantly enough so that another specific person in the room gets an "hidden message" that you want that person to get and that they'll understand.
> 
> In this case, Francesco's wife will know that her tight connection to the OM hasn't gone unnoticed...
> 
> I hope I read Francesco's intentions right



as usual: YOU NAILED IT!


----------



## turnera

> her tight connection to the OM hasn't gone unnoticed


Just to be clear, this isn't going to be a 'I hope you realize I realize you're being inappropriate with OM' speech, right?

It's going to be a 'I'm not happy and if you don't stop spending time with him I will choose to leave you' way, right?


----------



## Q tip

Francesco

You have things under control. Well thought out and planned. Consider alternatives in case the conversation goes in a strange direction. Be flexible. But stay in control and calm. 

You're doing great, bro !!


----------



## Francesco

turnera said:


> Just to be clear, this isn't going to be a 'I hope you realize I realize you're being inappropriate with OM' speech, right?
> 
> It's going to be a 'I'm not happy and if you don't stop spending time with him I will choose to leave you' way, right?



It will be something like this:

do you want to get old with me and face future problems together? or do you want OM to keep helping out? In the first case here I am, in the second i will set both of us free.


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> Francesco
> 
> You have things under control. Well thought out and planned. Consider alternatives in case the conversation goes in a strange direction. Be flexible. But stay in control and calm.
> 
> You're doing great, bro !!


thank you. i got much help on this board also.
I hate Drama... if i notice strange conversations of any type i will cut it off immediately.


----------



## tom67

Francesco said:


> thank you. i got much help on this board also.
> I hate Drama... if i notice strange conversations of any type i will cut it off immediately.


Cool and calm bro.
Prepare for anything.


----------



## drifting on

Francesco

Just wanted to say good luck tomorrow and I hope it is innocent. 
Prayers for you and your family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Borntohang

You ok?


----------



## Fringuello

Any news?


----------



## Chaparral

I don't think we will hear from him before Monday. He mainly posts from work.


----------



## drifting on

Francesco

I hope all is well with you and your family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

bump


----------



## Graywolf2

Francesco said:


> It will be something like this:
> 
> do you want to get old with me and face future problems together? or do you want OM to keep helping out? In the first case here I am, in the second i will set both of us free.


^^^ That’s perfect ^^^ 

I’m a physician and my wife is a gynecologist. I can completely understand giving a friend my wife’s phone number and asking my wife to give the friend priority treatment. I would point out my wife’s office if we were passing by it. But that’s it. 

Menopause isn’t that big of a deal. It’s natural and you discuss the process and if you want hormone replacement or not. It’s not like you’re going to die. Well, you are going to die someday but you don’t require hand holding and grief counseling.

It’s women discussing women’s issues. Why would a man want to interject himself into that?


----------



## Q tip

Graywolf2 said:


> ^^^ Thatâ€™s perfect ^^^
> 
> Iâ€™m a physician and my wife is a gynecologist. I can completely understand giving a friend my wifeâ€™s phone number and asking my wife to give the friend priority treatment. I would point out my wifeâ€™s office if we were passing by it. But thatâ€™s it.
> 
> Menopause isnâ€™t that big of a deal. Itâ€™s natural and you discuss the process and if you want hormone replacement or not. Itâ€™s not like youâ€™re going to die. Well, you are going to die someday but you donâ€™t require hand holding and grief counseling.
> 
> Itâ€™s women discussing womenâ€™s issues. Why would a man want to interject himself into that?


all guys know why...

...an opportunity to inject himself into that.


----------



## Chaparral

I'm surprised he didn't update to day.


----------



## Yeswecan

Chaparral said:


> I'm surprised he didn't update to day.


I don't take it as a good sign either.


----------



## italianjob

I hope nothing bad happened... And I'm not talking only about the issues with his wife, but also about his parents' health problems.


----------



## drifting on

Francesco

Hoping nothing bad has happened to you or your family. Good thoughts and prayers to you and your loved ones.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Yeswecan

Francesco,

How is it going sir?


----------



## drifting on

Francesco

Hope you are all doing well. I'm getting that sinking feeling that this has turned out to be bad. I hope I'm wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Borntohang

Francesco,

No matter what has happened, the people of TAM want only the best for you!


----------



## Decorum

drifting on said:


> Francesco
> 
> Hope you are all doing well. I'm getting that sinking feeling that this has turned out to be bad. I hope I'm wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Humm yes the longer he goes without an update the more concerning it seems.

It could be he went into his surveillance methods and it caused a rift, there are several possibilities.

Francesco, when you are ready I hope you will let us offer you some support.

Take care!


----------



## altawa

Not wanting to go back through over 1000 posts, but IIRC, it has been over a week since he updated last, and I don't think he has been out of the loop that long this whole thread.

Anybody confirm?


----------



## G.J.

altawa said:


> Not wanting to go back through over 1000 posts, but IIRC, it has been over a week since he updated last, and I don't think he has been out of the loop that long this whole thread.
> 
> Anybody confirm?


Yes Francesco didn't post for over a while when his father was ill the other week
He will be back I'm sure


----------



## Q tip

whatever happened, I pray he never revealed his sources and methods.


----------



## Yeswecan

Bump


----------



## tom67

another bump


----------



## Nucking Futs

tom67 said:


> another bump


Shades of Yessongs72


----------



## Borntohang

Exactly Nuts. I was thinking the same thing!


----------



## Q tip

perhaps his W took him to a totally different doctor and location...?


----------



## altawa

Kinda have a sinking feeling at this point.


----------



## Decorum

He last logged in on 02-18-2015.
He may be reading without the login though.


----------



## altawa

Decorum said:


> He last logged in on 02-18-2015.
> He may be reading without the login though.


If he was reading without logging in and saw all the concern, I think he would probably log in and give the all clear, assuming it is all clear. If he is not reading, that means he hasnt been here in almost two weeks, one week after the docs appt they were supposed to go to. If that was a negative reaction type thing, I would think he would have been back at SOME point to at least give the all clear.

My opinion is that either he confirmed something happened/she has been lying more than he thought, or something is going on with the parents at some level. 

I hope neither, but who knows.


----------



## Francesco

Hello TAM family, I'm back and much has happened.
I apologize for the delay of updates, ... many will not like how i handled the situation, but understand that i was quit a bit frustrated lately. 
So..... Friday i take off from work to go with my W. at OMW office. I had told my W. that i only had 2 hours then i needed to go back at work, it was a little white lie. I had the rest of that day covered just in case for something unforeseen.
When I arrived she kept telling me that since she told me everything already it was weird to go there again, i just answered that I needed to meet OMW also to have more info to face this problem. She was ok with that but felt a bit embarrassed.
Anyway we arrive at OMW office and i felt as that lady was x-raying me! First thing she said was: what's the pleasure of this visit? with a shxxxty face. I was pxssed already on my own and i simply responded: Only to finally meet the doctor that is taking care of my wife, and also to know what i can do to help, is this a problem for you? So i guess we both got bxxtchy!
OMW said that since my wife and her had already talked about everything, she just didn't understand why we needed to meet also. Because i LOVE my wife and I wanted to understand. I grabbed the receipts and put them on the table and said: for example all these visits made in the past months, and i had known only recently the reason why. She first looked and then confirmed all the visits and in a unpleasant way added that it was up to my wife to let me know things and not her.
And here is where i F.U.ed
I stayed calm.... and said yes! you are right! and i guess that i must thank your husband for this also. She looked at me as if i was crazy... my wife did also! i said if it wasn't for him that accompanied my wife AT ALMOST EVERY SINGLE VISIT, she wouldn't have knowed about her problems. And yes.... i agree that this was something that my wife needed to share with only me instead with your husband. That put a question mark on her forehead!
In that moment i was like possessed and in rage, and i went on asking if she was ok allowing her husband being so kind with other women? Needless to say she said that now she understands the reason why my wife doesn't talk with me about certain things, and that i am maybe an insecure person. I just smiled and while i was getting up said to her: or maybe i now know why your husband seeks to help other women.
Have a nice day and i left.... i heard my wife apologize to her and then she came out following me, and asked what was all that about.
I told her that i knew everything... that she and OM had crossed the boundary and that i was really pxssed! She was in complete shock.
Then began to explane that OM was only a good friend and was helping, he doesn't know what her problems are, she never told him, he just thought that she was worried for something more serious. I said is that why he huges and kisses you on a public bench where everybody can see? or maybe thats the reason why they are often on there own during lunch breaks?
She kept on saying that nothing was out of order, that all was just innocent and that she has no feelings nor desire for OM... actually she seemed almost flattered by my jealousy.
At that point i asked her a question, was it normal that OM was helping instead of me? Was it normal me not knowing what was going on?
she said that she wanted to be sure before alarming me, and that she didn't think that she not respected me.
I said that after 18 years it worries me that you don't know what respect is, so i will show it to you my way. She was questioning me for the meaning of that and i said that it was time for me to get back at work and we talk after.

I had already talked with the porter of the building where my headquarters is, and i knew he had a 2 room apartment available for free. He also said i can use it whenever i want. So i decided that that night i needed it. I wanted to make sure my wife got the message of the meaning of respect, so i spent the night out in that 2 room. I called her telling her that she needs to think better the meaning of respect and she can do it on her own that night cause i was not coming home, and to tell the kids that i had a night shift. She started to cry and plead, and i just said : did i ever disrespect you? well now i will and i hung up, shoot down my cell and dumped myself on the coach.
That was the rest of the day.
The story continues, but i need to go.... be back for the second part. I can add that after all this crap we are back and happy as ever, but this happened after the weekend. sorry but time to go... i will get back tomorrow


----------



## convert

Francesco said:


> Hello TAM family, I'm back and much has happened.
> I apologize for the delay of updates, ... many will not like how i handled the situation, but understand that i was quit a bit frustrated lately.
> So..... Friday i take off from work to go with my W. at OMW office. I had told my W. that i only had 2 hours then i needed to go back at work, it was a little white lie. I had the rest of that day covered just in case for something unforeseen.
> When I arrived she kept telling me that since she told me everything already it was weird to go there again, i just answered that I needed to meet OMW also to have more info to face this problem. She was ok with that but felt a bit embarrassed.
> Anyway we arrive at OMW office and i felt as that lady was x-raying me! First thing she said was: what's the pleasure of this visit? with a shxxxty face. I was pxssed already on my own and i simply responded: Only to finally meet the doctor that is taking care of my wife, and also to know what i can do to help, is this a problem for you? So i guess we both got bxxtchy!
> OMW said that since my wife and her had already talked about everything, she just didn't understand why we needed to meet also. Because i LOVE my wife and I wanted to understand. I grabbed the receipts and put them on the table and said: for example all these visits made in the past months, and i had known only recently the reason why. She first looked and then confirmed all the visits and in a unpleasant way added that it was up to my wife to let me know things and not her.
> And here is where i F.U.ed
> I stayed calm.... and said yes! you are right! and i guess that i must thank your husband for this also. She looked at me as if i was crazy... my wife did also! i said if it wasn't for him that accompanied my wife AT ALMOST EVERY SINGLE VISIT, she wouldn't have knowed about her problems. And yes.... i agree that this was something that my wife needed to share with only me instead with your husband. That put a question mark on her forehead!
> In that moment i was like possessed and in rage, and i went on asking if she was ok allowing her husband being so kind with other women? Needless to say *she said that now she understands the reason why my wife doesn't talk with me about certain things, and that i am maybe an insecure person.* I just smiled and while i was getting up said to her: or maybe i now know why your husband seeks to help other women.
> Have a nice day and i left.... i heard my wife apologize to her and then she came out following me, and asked what was all that about.
> I told her that i knew everything... that she and OM had crossed the boundary and that i was really pxssed! She was in complete shock.
> Then began to explane that OM was only a good friend and was helping, he doesn't know what her problems are, she never told him, he just thought that she was worried for something more serious. I said is that why he huges and kisses you on a public bench where everybody can see? or maybe thats the reason why they are often on there own during lunch breaks?
> She kept on saying that nothing was out of order, that all was just innocent and that she has no feelings nor desire for OM... actually she seemed almost flattered by my jealousy.
> At that point i asked her a question, was it normal that OM was helping instead of me? Was it normal me not knowing what was going on?
> she said that she wanted to be sure before alarming me, and that she didn't think that she not respected me.
> I said that after 18 years it worries me that you don't know what respect is, so i will show it to you my way. She was questioning me for the meaning of that and i said that it was time for me to get back at work and we talk after.
> 
> I had already talked with the porter of the building where my headquarters is, and i knew he had a 2 room apartment available for free. He also said i can use it whenever i want. So i decided that that night i needed it. I wanted to make sure my wife got the message of the meaning of respect, so i spent the night out in that 2 room. I called her telling her that she needs to think better the meaning of respect and she can do it on her own that night cause i was not coming home, and to tell the kids that i had a night shift. She started to cry and plead, and i just said : did i ever disrespect you? well now i will and i hung up, shoot down my cell and dumped myself on the coach.
> That was the rest of the day.
> The story continues, but i need to go.... be back for the second part. I can add that after all this crap we are back and happy as ever, but this happened after the weekend. sorry but time to go... i will get back tomorrow


I am not sure why she would think this before meeting you and why she was being nasty before you got a little (understandable) angry.

I hope that is not what you wife told OM or maybe OM telling his wife.

I can understand why you got angry. You been bottling this up for awhile now.


----------



## Decorum

Humm that didnt go as planned, but you were really primed up.
I can see how I would have had a hard time with that as well.

Glad things are ok with you guys.

It looks like the Doctor was warned about you or something.


----------



## convert

Decorum said:


> Humm that didnt go as planned, but you were really primed up.
> I can see how I would have had a hard time with that as well.
> 
> Glad things are ok with you guys.
> 
> *It looks like the Doctor was warned about you or something.*


yes, that is what I was alluding to


----------



## Decorum

Yeah I know, I felt it but did not think to put it into words until I read you post, then I realized it was important so I added it in. 

I hope there was no shenanigans involved.

Good observation!


----------



## convert

Decorum said:


> Yeah I know, I felt it but did think to put it into words until I read you post, then I realized it was important so I added it in.
> 
> I hope there was no shenanigans involved.
> 
> Good observation!


yea I should have been more clear but it seems everything is fine now and maybe just boundaries were crossed.

but right out of the cheaters hand book-----crazy spouse (BS) - if they contact you (OMW/OWH) don't listen they are crazy and insecure.

oh and - we are just friends.


Sorry Francesco I am being Hyper vigilant


----------



## Decorum

Gosh when you put it that way... 

But hopefully when Francesco finishes his update he can address some of this.


----------



## convert

Decorum said:


> Gosh when you put it that way...
> 
> But hopefully when Francesco finishes his update he can address some of this.


yes it sounds as if the doctor got a picture of Francesco being crazy and insecure before he even arrived at the office.

why would she think that?
OM telling her?
francisco's wife telling her?
or maybe she thought it odd that her husband is bringing a married women to a gynecologist office? then her husband saying yes Francesco is crazy man?


----------



## G.J.

> Then began to explane that OM was only a good friend and was helping, he doesn't know what her problems are, she never told him, he just thought that she was worried for something more serious.


*
Of course he knew as his wife said 'that's why she doesn't tell you !!!'*



> I said is that why he huges and kisses you on a public bench where everybody can see? or maybe thats the reason why they are often on there own during lunch breaks?
> She kept on saying *that nothing was out of order*, that all was just innocent and that she has no feelings nor desire for OM... actually she seemed almost flattered by my jealousy.


*So how did she explain touching her and hand holding???*



> At that point i asked her a question, was it normal that OM was helping instead of me? Was it normal me not knowing what was going on?
> she said that she wanted to be sure before alarming me, and that she didn't think that she not respected me.


*She wanted to be sure so involved another guy ??
Makes no sense
Tell her 'lets ask your parents what they think'*


----------



## convert

NO MORE LUNCHES WITH OM.

oh and no more gynecologist office visit with OM or any other doctor for that matter, and yes even dentist

and (just a thought here) it might be a good idea for Francesco to tell/confront OM NO MORE LUNCH visits or anything else.
Why not they already thing he is a crazy insecure man.


----------



## Yeswecan

Francesco


> actually she seemed almost flattered by my jealousy.


This is a good thing. She now knows you do care...A LOT! So, with that said, I'm still of mind the OM is on the make. I'm also inclined to believe your W is really not grasping the OM might be on the make. He appears to be innocently helping her as she sees it.

Now that is out I think your W has some new boundaries and a understanding that she is to communicate with you on things concerning health. As well as any other matters in life. This is what married people do.


----------



## Chaparral

It doesn't make any sense a doctor would be so antagonistic to a patients spouse to me. I would be furious with her for that alone. She either has been warned or suspects something and is doing some fishing on her own.

Good job Francesco.


----------



## Q tip

maybe talk to OMW the doctor alone - maybe phone call. tell her the details of OM behavior -- holding hands, caressing tears... ask her if this is normal and she accepts this and how many women does he caress and wipe tears as just friends.

Id make it bad for OM so he understands HIS role in 100% all of this. up to formal complaint if you want. seems like OM is the innocent one. dont let that happen. remember, PUA always act innocent and insulted up to the first serious move. maybe his wife sees his innocence EVERY time this happens?


----------



## tom67

Q tip said:


> maybe talk to OMW the doctor alone - maybe phone call. tell her the details of OM behavior -- holding hands, caressing tears... ask her if this is normal and she accepts this and how many women does he caress and wipe tears as just friends.
> 
> Id make it bad for OM so he understands HIS role in 100% all of this. up to formal complaint if you want. seems like OM is the innocent one. dont let that happen. remember, PUA always act innocent and insulted up to the first serious move. maybe his wife sees his innocence EVERY time this happens?


:iagree:
His w must have the wool pulled over her.:scratchhead:


----------



## Yeswecan

Chaparral said:


> It doesn't make any sense a doctor would be so antagonistic to a patients spouse to me. I would be furious with her for that alone. She either has been warned or suspects something and is doing some fishing on her own.
> 
> Good job Francesco.


It was quite possible Francesco was very curt. Francesco said he was already on the defensive side and being a bit aggressive. I suspect the doctor in her own office was not going to take it sittin 
down.


----------



## Q tip

tom67 said:


> :iagree:
> His w must have the wool pulled over her.:scratchhead:


:iagree:

the entire sheep!


----------



## Chaparral

Yeswecan said:


> It was quite possible Francesco was very curt. Francesco said he was already on the defensive side and being a bit aggressive. I suspect the doctor in her own office was not going to take it sittin
> down.


I would think a doctor would have a better bedside manner and be used to troubled or upset patients and be overly patronizing as opposed to insulting a patients husband.

I would have told her the next time I found he was caressing my wife's face or holding her hand at lunch he would be coming home withe a stub.


----------



## Dogbert

Whether or not Francesco was curt, medical doctors are supposed to act in a professional manner and not in an aggressive and disrespectful one towards their patients spouses. A good doctor knows this. But a doctor who behaves in such fashion MAY indicate some skeletons in her medical closet. It may be a wise move for Francesco to have his PI friend investigate this "doctor" to see if she actually is a doctor.


----------



## Decorum

Chaparral said:


> I would think a doctor would have a better bedside manner and be used to troubled or upset patients and be overly patronizing as opposed to insulting a patients husband.
> 
> I would have told her the next time I found he was caressing my wife's face or holding her hand at lunch he would be coming home withe a stub.


It is not typical behavior, I have seen doctors become a little impatient with a line of questioning, they have bad days too, but this doc got there rather fast. Liked she had been warned, but that's been mentioned already.

But as someone said it would be helpful if we knew (but we weren't there) how Francesco came across.


----------



## Yeswecan

Chaparral said:


> I would think a doctor would have a better bedside manner and be used to troubled or upset patients and be overly patronizing as opposed to insulting a patients husband.
> 
> I would have told her the next time I found he was caressing my wife's face or holding her hand at lunch he would be coming home withe a stub.


It all depends on how aggressive Francesco appeared. Bedside manners will only do so far. 


And I agree that F should have been clear on what her H has been doing with his W at the park. Lunches, etc.


----------



## Yeswecan

Dogbert said:


> Whether or not Francesco was curt, medical doctors are supposed to act in a professional manner and not in an aggressive and disrespectful one towards their patients spouses. A good doctor knows this. But a doctor who behaves in such fashion MAY indicate some skeletons in her medical closet. It may be a wise move for Francesco to have his PI friend investigate this "doctor" to see if she actually is a doctor.


They are not to be abused and treated like clean up either. I doubt there is any skeletons in the closet. I'm inclined to think the doctor felt she was being accused of some wrong doing when F W should have been telling F what her aliment is. F W is not a child were you go as a parent to get the diagnosis. F W knows what she has and should have explained it to F. The doctor appears to be caught in the middle as she sees it. 

I think investigating the doctor is a way over the line.


----------



## Yeswecan

Decorum said:


> It is not typical behavior, I have seen doctors become a little impatient with a line of questioning, they have bad days too, but this doc got there rather fast. Liked she had been warned, but that's been mentioned already.
> 
> But as someone said it would be helpful if we knew (but we weren't there) how Francesco came across.


Yes, accusatory questioning from the looks of it.


----------



## larry.gray

Decorum said:


> Humm that didnt go as planned, but you were really primed up.
> I can see how I would have had a hard time with that as well.
> 
> Glad things are ok with you guys.
> 
> It looks like the Doctor was warned about you or something.


If doc's hubby is a player, that's exactly what happened. You make the husband of a woman you're angling for seem crazy. That way, if you're caught and hubby exposes, gaslighting is easier.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Dogbert said:


> Whether or not Francesco was curt, medical doctors are supposed to act in a professional manner and not in an aggressive and disrespectful one towards their patients spouses. A good doctor knows this. But a doctor who behaves in such fashion MAY indicate some skeletons in her medical closet. It may be a wise move for Francesco to *have his PI friend investigate this "doctor"* to see if she actually is a doctor.


Bear in mind his "PI friend" is not actually a PI, he's an under cover police detective. He's probably tiptoeing along the line of malfeasance by doing what he's already done.

And what does the OM do for a living? 



Francesco said:


> Yeah.... lunch dates!
> Don't know about other co-workers knowing, but in the room where she works they a very few, and they get along well. *They handle delicate paperwork dealing with public administration fraud,
> corruption and other crap like that.
> Found out that he is one of the investigators* that pass the paperwork to her. So ther relationship might seem normal to others.... and probably they know how to play it well if it's an affair


----------



## Borntohang

Definitely warned! She was prepared for you!


----------



## Q tip

Demand NC with OM. Period. Change doctors too. No lunch if he's in the group either. He needs to have lunch with men. Grown up ones.

The doctor was prepared as pointed out. I wonder why. Escorting women around town to the doctor is not his job or business. Hugging and caressing is not his business either.

So far, none of these have been explained by the W yet. She has no defense to it other than admitting boundaries have been raped (a little "raped"?, just a nudge down the slope maybe?) by the OM.

Hope its all resolved for Francesco. Hope OM is being watched, maybe for the OMW sake.


----------



## Tobyboy

I'm still of the believe that Francesco wife is "playing" everyone here!!! Her husband, her target(OM), her Dr.(OM's wife). 

All will be revealed........someday I hope.


----------



## altawa

Have you seen the commercial where there are three old ladies in a living room, and one of them has taped pictures to her wall. She is treating the wall like Facebook. Her friend looks at her and says "That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works". 

Well, cue the friend.......this whole situation stinks to high hell.


----------



## Q tip

Tobyboy said:


> I'm still of the believe that Francesco wife is "playing" everyone here!!! Her husband, her target(OM), her Dr.(OM's wife).
> 
> All will be revealed........someday I hope.


well, if all Francescos wifes time has been accounted for like doctors visits and time away (weekly ballgames) it narrows some chances. 

then - still, he only discovered what she knows he knows and admits to. not prior...

btw, there seems to be lots of available for free use apartments around town...


----------



## Dogbert

Francesco, please help your wife find another OBGYN. This way she won't have any need for the OM nor his doctor wife.


----------



## wmn1

Francesco = MIA

Wonder what's up ???


----------



## bfree

Francesco my friend, how is your father doing?


----------



## drifting on

drifting on said:


> Francesco
> 
> Have your wife ask for a complete copy of her medical chart that you can take with. I'm not sure if you intended to do that. Also understand that her behavior is loyal to OM and not you so be prepared to hear how concerned he was of her health scare and that he is only a friend. I wish you well but this is far into an EA with her discussing her private health with OM and still lying to you. She will talk to OM and he may have a discussion with his wife that you are a crazy jealous husband and not give you too much information. Hence the full copy of her medical chart including consultations. Your wife will be coached all week by OM so she will be very resistant to take those walls down.
> 
> My WW would begin to weaken on the weekends whenever OM wasn't in her ear coaching her. You will be in the same spot. I suggest listening to her very intently this week but speak very few words. Start making her feel uneasy as to what you are going through, don't let on if its your dad or her. Just be quiet.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> Edited for spelling.




Francesco

I say this gently, the doctor was warned about your meeting. Your wife was coached. You are more disrespected now then ever. Welcome to the world I lived in for three years. I could have written that post for you. I said you would be seen as jealous and crazy. The doctor doesn't believe what you said. Your wife apologized as told by OM. The doctor sees you as insecure, at this point you are as was I. Your wife is loyal to him and any respect she did have for you is gone. I asked this question before but you never answered it, when she returned from lunch with OM, turned white faced, did she talk to you or say she was ten minutes late already and run into work? You don't turn white faced unless you are guilty, besides he's just a friend which she reminded you about again after visiting the good doctor!!!!


----------



## drifting on

Francesco said:


> Hello TAM family, I'm back and much has happened.
> I apologize for the delay of updates, ... many will not like how i handled the situation, but understand that i was quit a bit frustrated lately.
> So..... Friday i take off from work to go with my W. at OMW office. I had told my W. that i only had 2 hours then i needed to go back at work, it was a little white lie. I had the rest of that day covered just in case for something unforeseen.
> When I arrived she kept telling me that since she told me everything already it was weird to go there again, i just answered that I needed to meet OMW also to have more info to face this problem. She was ok with that but felt a bit embarrassed.
> Anyway we arrive at OMW office and i felt as that lady was x-raying me! First thing she said was: what's the pleasure of this visit? with a shxxxty face. I was pxssed already on my own and i simply responded: Only to finally meet the doctor that is taking care of my wife, and also to know what i can do to help, is this a problem for you? So i guess we both got bxxtchy!
> OMW said that since my wife and her had already talked about everything, she just didn't understand why we needed to meet also. Because i LOVE my wife and I wanted to understand. I grabbed the receipts and put them on the table and said: for example all these visits made in the past months, and i had known only recently the reason why. She first looked and then confirmed all the visits and in a unpleasant way added that it was up to my wife to let me know things and not her.
> And here is where i F.U.ed
> I stayed calm.... and said yes! you are right! and i guess that i must thank your husband for this also. She looked at me as if i was crazy... my wife did also! i said if it wasn't for him that accompanied my wife AT ALMOST EVERY SINGLE VISIT, she wouldn't have knowed about her problems. And yes.... i agree that this was something that my wife needed to share with only me instead with your husband. That put a question mark on her forehead!
> In that moment i was like possessed and in rage, and i went on asking if she was ok allowing her husband being so kind with other women? Needless to say she said that now she understands the reason why my wife doesn't talk with me about certain things, and that i am maybe an insecure person. I just smiled and while i was getting up said to her: or maybe i now know why your husband seeks to help other women.
> Have a nice day and i left.... i heard my wife apologize to her and then she came out following me, and asked what was all that about.
> I told her that i knew everything... that she and OM had crossed the boundary and that i was really pxssed! She was in complete shock.
> Then began to explane that OM was only a good friend and was helping, he doesn't know what her problems are, she never told him, he just thought that she was worried for something more serious. I said is that why he huges and kisses you on a public bench where everybody can see? or maybe thats the reason why they are often on there own during lunch breaks?
> She kept on saying that nothing was out of order, that all was just innocent and that she has no feelings nor desire for OM... actually she seemed almost flattered by my jealousy.
> At that point i asked her a question, was it normal that OM was helping instead of me? Was it normal me not knowing what was going on?
> she said that she wanted to be sure before alarming me, and that she didn't think that she not respected me.
> I said that after 18 years it worries me that you don't know what respect is, so i will show it to you my way. She was questioning me for the meaning of that and i said that it was time for me to get back at work and we talk after.
> 
> I had already talked with the porter of the building where my headquarters is, and i knew he had a 2 room apartment available for free. He also said i can use it whenever i want. So i decided that that night i needed it. I wanted to make sure my wife got the message of the meaning of respect, so i spent the night out in that 2 room. I called her telling her that she needs to think better the meaning of respect and she can do it on her own that night cause i was not coming home, and to tell the kids that i had a night shift. She started to cry and plead, and i just said : did i ever disrespect you? well now i will and i hung up, shoot down my cell and dumped myself on the coach.
> That was the rest of the day.
> The story continues, but i need to go.... be back for the second part. I can add that after all this crap we are back and happy as ever, but this happened after the weekend. sorry but time to go... i will get back tomorrow





Francesco

I have stated in other posts on your thread that this has triggered me over and over. What I am about to post is my sarcasm that comes out when I am hurting. Your thread has caused me so much pain I probably shouldn't even post on it. But I feel that maybe you can understand I have gone through this and it hurts to know the same is happening to you. What I am about to post from here on is going to sting and hurt.

The doctor greets you with "what's the pleasure of this visit"? Said in a sh---y way. Let's just take a closer look at this. A patient comes to her office with her husband, never having met before, yet talks sh---y towards him. What does that tell you Francesco? The doctor was warned about you and immediately treats you with zero respect. Let me ask you this, did your wife take offense to the doctor disrespecting you?? Did your wife say anything to the doctor? Maybe something like, why are you treating my husband this way? You don't have to answer, I know she didn't, because your wife doesn't respect you.

Since the doctor and your wife discussed everything the doctor didn't undertsand the reason for this visit. Do you have any idea as to why the doctor said that? Because OM has said that you are uncaring, unsympathetic, and insecure to the point you lash out at your wife. That your wife can't talk to her husband because he is a jerk. So after further confirming the receipts she adds it is your wife's responsibility to tell you. She says this in a not so nice way. That's because you just proved the OM gaslighting perfectly. Let's ask if your wife says anything after this? Of course not, her loyalty towards OM and she would rather share the OM then defend you at all. Now you know it's a physical affair Francesco, clearly. I was in your shoes and it sucks.

Now it starts getting good, you start to show where infidelity may be seen by any reasonable person and she looks at you like you have three heads!!! What's worse is your wife, your wife Francesco, agrees with the doctor!!! How much disrespect can you take before you really get pissed?? As for sharing it with the doctors husband you didn't put a question mark on her forehead, you confirmed all that the OM told her!!! 

Now you ask if the doctor is ok with her husband (OM) being so close to women. Ok here is where I punched a hole in my garage wall. The doctor responds with now she understands why your wife doesn't talk to you. Let me ask you, did your wife defend you here??? You can't tell me your wife just sat there while her doctor, who is a supposed professional, disrespects you like she did. This had to piss off your wife to new heights!!! Well I guess not, she sat there silently to protect her OM. 

Now your wife apologizes to the doctor!!! Hole number two punched into garage wall! I'm surprised your wife didn't pull out pompoms and cheer the f---ing doctor on!!! Why did your wife even chase after you?? She has no feelings for you, she only wants her cake. Now your wife asks what was that all about? Did she hear anything you said? No, she was dreaming of OM. You say she should have told you, she says I didn't want to alarm you. Why would she think that? Because she doesn't love you and thinks you don't love her. Why did she ask about the future, because she knows you will leave after you get the truth. 

Your wife is shocked that she crossed a boundary? She's not shocked he's only a good friend. Hugs and holding hands? But Francesco he's so nice and an even better friend to me!!! That why she said nothing after the doctor paints a portrait of you as an abuser and your wife says NOTHING AT ALL!!! 

If I were you, to hell if she respects you, you have much bigger problems, she loves someone else. No matter what your explanation that comes next, your wife should have defended you to the doctor and didn't. She protected OM and has plenty of feelings for him. Don't kid yourself, she lost her sex drive only it's not for a medical issue, it's because she prefers OM over you.

Good luck.


----------



## manfromlamancha

I kind of agree with DriftingOn although he is also triggered by all this, hence the emotion.

He still poses a very good question: why did your wife not say something (in your defence) when being attacked by this b!tch of a doctor (who should be worried about her husband more than anything else) ?


First she should not have felt weird or embarassed about going back to the doctor with you.


Second it is normal for doctors to assure spouses when requested to do so. The doctor should not have been surprised or upset at you requesting to see her.


Third, your wife should have been upset at the way you were greeted by this idiot OMW.


Fourth, she should have said something when the doctor said it is your wife's job not hers to tell you stuff about the problem - something like "I wanted my husband to hear it directly from you in case I missed something or he had questions on my condition" - instead she just sat there looking worried.


Fifth, I would expect a different answer from the doctor when told that her husband had "helped" your wife - something like "oh I am sure it was what anyone would do to help someone and yes my husband is a great guy", not the response she gave you.


Sixth, when she said she understands why your wife doesn't talk with you about things and that you were insecure, I would expect your wife to jump in there and defend you and also confirm that she does talk with you about things. Again, she didn't!


Seventh, your wife bloody well apologised to the OMW!?!?!?! Instead of saying that she would report her to the practice ombudsman for bad practice!


And finally, she started defending heavily the OM and herself when she came out instead of trying to empathise with you.


Also, just as a passing thought - perhaps the doctor realised that there might be something inappropriate going on between her husband and your wife (and maybe this is not the first time for him)and didn't want to confront it, be reminded of it, have it thrown in her face etc and this made her irate.

So Francesco, there is more to this story that you need to uncover. Please do update us as we can help you as much as we can.


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## italianjob

Hi Francesco,
I'm happy you guys have worked out things, I just hope every aspect of this story has been dealt with properly, but I'll wait for your next update before jumping to any conclusion.

Yes, you didn't handle the confrontation at the doctor very well, it's understandable under the circumstances, but you should have been more in control. You ended up getting painted as the bad guy and probably ruined your chances to discover more if there was more to be discovered.




Francesco said:


> When I arrived she kept telling me that since she told me everything already it was weird to go there again, i just answered that I needed to meet OMW also to have more info to face this problem. She was ok with that but felt a bit embarrassed.
> Anyway we arrive at OMW office and i felt as that lady was x-raying me! First thing she said was: what's the pleasure of this visit? with a shxxxty face. I was pxssed already on my own and i simply responded: Only to finally meet the doctor that is taking care of my wife, and also to know what i can do to help, is this a problem for you? So i guess we both got bxxtchy!
> OMW said that since my wife and her had already talked about everything, she just didn't understand why we needed to meet also.


What I see here is that both your wife and the OMW had an idea of what was coming (maybe the OMW didn't expect you to bring up her H's role in the matter, and maybe your wife didn't expect for it to be so explicit, but they knew what you were going there for). The appointment was made several days before so the fact that your wife brings up her embarassment on this day makes me think that she has been thinking about it, and talking about it with someone else, guess who?
I agree with all others: the doctor had been warned that "her patient's abusive husband" had freaked out about something and wanted to see her, I guess this was OM's job.




Francesco said:


> she came out following me, and asked what was all that about.
> I told her that i knew everything... that she and OM had crossed the boundary and that i was really pxssed! She was in complete shock.


She had just heard you talking about the OM with the doctor, so she knew you suspected him, why would it be a complete shock at this point? 
Another thing: if she genuinely thought there was nothing inappropriate in her behavior, she would have taken your outburst at her doctor's as an insult. She should have been red with anger if she felt she was being so publicly accused without guilt, she would have been demanding explanations instead of offering one.




Francesco said:


> Then began to explane that OM was only a good friend and was helping, he doesn't know what her problems are, she never told him, he just thought that she was worried for something more serious.


And you know your friend saw them coming out of OMW office with papers and looking at them together, so this sound like a lie, doesn't it?



Francesco said:


> actually she seemed almost flattered by my jealousy.


If you caught it really early, before it developed in a real full blown emotional/physical affair, this is where your messy outburst might have had a beneficial effect. She saw you were ready to fight for her real hard.
I think this is a good sign, if she was already deep in a PA with OM, she wouldn't have been flattered but just enraged by your jealousy IMO. 


I hope you found a way to address everything properly, and I'm waiting for your next update.


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## kenmoore14217

my two cents: your wife aborted the om child telling the Dr. that you are an abusive person and that's why she didn't want the baby to be born


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## G.J.

kenmoore14217 said:


> my two cents: your wife aborted the om child telling the Dr. that you are an abusive person and that's why she didn't want the baby to be born


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## G.J.

drifting on said:


> Francesco
> 
> I have stated in other posts on your thread that this has triggered me over and over. What I am about to post is my sarcasm that comes out when I am hurting. Your thread has caused me so much pain I probably shouldn't even post on it. But I feel that maybe you can understand I have gone through this and it hurts to know the same is happening to you. What I am about to post from here on is going to sting and hurt.
> 
> The doctor greets you with "what's the pleasure of this visit"? Said in a sh---y way. Let's just take a closer look at this. A patient comes to her office with her husband, never having met before, yet talks sh---y towards him. What does that tell you Francesco? The doctor was warned about you and immediately treats you with zero respect. Let me ask you this, did your wife take offense to the doctor disrespecting you?? Did your wife say anything to the doctor? Maybe something like, why are you treating my husband this way? You don't have to answer, I know she didn't, because your wife doesn't respect you.
> 
> Since the doctor and your wife discussed everything the doctor didn't undertsand the reason for this visit. Do you have any idea as to why the doctor said that? Because OM has said that you are uncaring, unsympathetic, and insecure to the point you lash out at your wife. That your wife can't talk to her husband because he is a jerk. So after further confirming the receipts she adds it is your wife's responsibility to tell you. She says this in a not so nice way. That's because you just proved the OM gaslighting perfectly. Let's ask if your wife says anything after this? Of course not, her loyalty towards OM and she would rather share the OM then defend you at all. Now you know it's a physical affair Francesco, clearly. I was in your shoes and it sucks.
> 
> Now it starts getting good, you start to show where infidelity may be seen by any reasonable person and she looks at you like you have three heads!!! What's worse is your wife, your wife Francesco, agrees with the doctor!!! How much disrespect can you take before you really get pissed?? As for sharing it with the doctors husband you didn't put a question mark on her forehead, you confirmed all that the OM told her!!!
> 
> Now you ask if the doctor is ok with her husband (OM) being so close to women. Ok here is where I punched a hole in my garage wall. The doctor responds with now she understands why your wife doesn't talk to you. Let me ask you, did your wife defend you here??? You can't tell me your wife just sat there while her doctor, who is a supposed professional, disrespects you like she did. This had to piss off your wife to new heights!!! Well I guess not, she sat there silently to protect her OM.
> 
> Now your wife apologizes to the doctor!!! Hole number two punched into garage wall! I'm surprised your wife didn't pull out pompoms and cheer the f---ing doctor on!!! Why did your wife even chase after you?? She has no feelings for you, she only wants her cake. Now your wife asks what was that all about? Did she hear anything you said? No, she was dreaming of OM. You say she should have told you, she says I didn't want to alarm you. Why would she think that? Because she doesn't love you and thinks you don't love her. Why did she ask about the future, because she knows you will leave after you get the truth.
> 
> Your wife is shocked that she crossed a boundary? She's not shocked he's only a good friend. Hugs and holding hands? But Francesco he's so nice and an even better friend to me!!! That why she said nothing after the doctor paints a portrait of you as an abuser and your wife says NOTHING AT ALL!!!
> 
> If I were you, to hell if she respects you, you have much bigger problems, she loves someone else. No matter what your explanation that comes next, your wife should have defended you to the doctor and didn't. She protected OM and has plenty of feelings for him.
> 
> Good luck.


This is soooo plausable


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## Q tip

hoping the OM is being watched. so far his W paints him as totally innocent. a PUA has innocence as part of his strategy early on to rely on. before any obvious moves.

again, no excuses for physical contact which they did have.

still think he had Francescos wife almost hooked. hoping he coaches his W on PUA tactics and EA/PA info - and that OM fits the PUA MO closely. hope Francescos wife has a permanent NC with this guy and his quack doctor wife. and hope she fully shares the truth. 

FYI... as a boss (their boss or by viurtue of being a "boss" in business) ive occasionally had women confide personal things with me, but ive never responded in any way like OM did, id listen politely - all the while looking for an exit. some would actually use the conversation to fish for me. some were married some single.


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## Yeswecan

Might be prudent to get the second update from Francesco. For me, it appears all involved(W, OM, OMW) would have gone to great lengths to cover up. Personally, I do not see that happening. What would the OMW the doctor have to gain/lose in the entire ordeal?


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## drifting on

Francesco

What did your wife say as to why she shut you off from her feelings? Please don't say not to alarm you, this is a very poor excuse. 
Why did she share this personal information with OM and not you? Please don't say she didn't want to alarm you. 
Is it common for her not to share her feelings with you?
Do you share your feelings with her?
Why did she allow the doctor to treat you poorly?
Are you or can you report this doctor to some medical board?
Why did your wife apologize to the doctor?
Does your wife have ANY boundaries?
Does she feel she was wrong sharing this info with OM?
Does she feel hugging and kissing a co-worker is acceptable?
Does she feel lunches alone with OM is innocent?
If innocent why white faced?
Why did she laugh when she said she knew you would ask?
Why did she lie?
Is she still seeing the same doctor?
Is she in contact with OM?
Did she really not understand the doctors visit with you?
Why did she not defend you at all?
Does she love you?
If yes, why shut you out and let OM in?
Does she understand what she has done?
Are you believing her when she has lied?
Does she have consequences other then you not coming home?
Are you going to accept this behavior?
Are you planning to "thank" OM in person? 

As you can see I have a few questions, I have heard the answers to all of these questions. The key is are you going to accept these answers or tell your wife to try one more time? If your wife says I didn't want to alarm you, you say try again. Tell her you won't ask this question again and the answer better be truthful and one I will accept and understand. Then tell her there is no acceptable answer but you will settle for truth. I wish you luck, but I already know I won't like update part two.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Suspecting2014

Francesco,

First of all I am glad that everything is fine now.

I would like you to include the answer to this questions on your next post if possible.

Why a very nice Doctor was so mean to you? She was kind enough to make room to see your wife at lunch time many times but just doesnt like you without knowing you.


If I am not mistaken, the nice Doctor didn't seem to know that her husband (OM) was/is a close friend of your wife, close enough to take her (your wife) to the Doctor and comfort her even not knowing what she was going through. Could you please elaborate about this.


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## Q tip

OMW/Doctor needs to know all about her H behavior with his lady friends. do you think your W response has been coached..? is she more protective of OM than your relationship?

all - Francesco did say he would be updating more. patience.. in time, grass turns to milk.


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## drifting on

Yeswecan said:


> Might be prudent to get the second update from Francesco. For me, it appears all involved(W, OM, OMW) would have gone to great lengths to cover up. Personally, I do not see that happening. What would the OMW the doctor have to gain/lose in the entire ordeal?




Doctor actually has nothing to gain, lose, I'll paint a picture that ultimately she could lose her husband. OM tells his doctor wife about a woman he works with. This poor woman is all alone and her husband is crazy and jealous. She can't even talk to him without him making accusatory statements. Is their any way you could see this poor woman on her lunch breaks and I'll drive her here as her husband makes her walk to work. The doctor says fine. OM brings Francesco's wife without her even being in on the affair. Now after five or six appointments and OM still telling the doctor lies about Francesco, the doctor believes its true since Francesco has never gone to one single appointment where he should be supporting his wife. 

Francesco finds out and asks his wife to make a doctor appointment. She then runs to OM and he tells the doctor Francesco has found out and wants to meet you. Of course the doctor has been fed lies and already made judgement on Francesco. So when Francesco arrives she greets him with an attitude, Francesco returns the attitude and everything OM has said just became fact to the doctor. The fact Francesco's wife does not defend Francesco and later apologize, makes it that more true. Participating players are Francesco's wife and OM, the doctor doesn't even know she was played by her husband. Tie a f-----g bow on it. 

Sorry yeswecan, workplace affairs are terrible and very difficult to catch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## G.J.

drifting on said:


> Doctor actually has nothing to gain, lose, I'll paint a picture that ultimately she could lose her husband. OM tells his doctor wife about a woman he works with. This poor woman is all alone and her husband is crazy and jealous. She can't even talk to him without him making accusatory statements. Is their any way you could see this poor woman on her lunch breaks and I'll drive her here as her husband makes her walk to work. The doctor says fine. OM brings Francesco's wife without her even being in on the affair. Now after five or six appointments and OM still telling the doctor lies about Francesco, the doctor believes its true since Francesco has never gone to one single appointment where he should be supporting his wife.
> 
> Francesco finds out and asks his wife to make a doctor appointment. She then runs to OM and he tells the doctor Francesco has found out and wants to meet you. Of course the doctor has been fed lies and already made judgement on Francesco. So when Francesco arrives she greets him with an attitude, Francesco returns the attitude and everything OM has said just became fact to the doctor. The fact Francesco's wife does not defend Francesco and later apologize, makes it that more true. Participating players are Francesco's wife and OM, the doctor doesn't even know she was played by her husband. Tie a f-----g bow on it.
> 
> Sorry yeswecan, workplace affairs are terrible and very difficult to catch.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good idea to spell it out for Francesco as its what you intimated earlier but now it will be easier
for Francesco to follow the reasing as English isn't his first language

Francesco This is 
Driftingons story ( Driftingon hope you didn't mind let me know if you want me to delete this)



> I haven't posted my story but my situation was very nearly your
> yours. My WW had a work affair also. All communication was with work phones and email. *WW exhibited all the red flags* of an affair and I about went crazy trying to catch them. My gut screamed at me *for over two years*. I was reading on sites like this when I read the story of Mrs Matthias. I believe it was this story but I could be wrong. She stated she confessed when she had nothing to lose and felt safe. I made my WW feel safe and told her the marriage could not continue this way. I suggested MC. Within a few months she confessed.
> Even though I knew I was devastated. For 13 months I wanted to die. I am finally in a better place and reconciling. Hard work but she is fighting to save this marriage. From what I have read it appears in my opinion that your wife cheated and the affair ended over a year ago. She will protect her AP most likely as mine did. My d-day was January 20th of this year. I know how you and the frustration you are going through. I might even make my WW take the poly still but I'm undecided. I feel as though I have the truth. Good luck for this road sucks


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## convert

drifting on said:


> Doctor actually has nothing to gain, lose, I'll paint a picture that ultimately she could lose her husband. OM tells his doctor wife about a woman he works with. This poor woman is all alone and her husband is crazy and jealous. She can't even talk to him without him making accusatory statements. Is their any way you could see this poor woman on her lunch breaks and I'll drive her here as her husband makes her walk to work. The doctor says fine. OM brings Francesco's wife without her even being in on the affair. Now after five or six appointments and OM still telling the doctor lies about Francesco, the doctor believes its true since Francesco has never gone to one single appointment where he should be supporting his wife.
> 
> Francesco finds out and asks his wife to make a doctor appointment. She then runs to OM and he tells the doctor Francesco has found out and wants to meet you. Of course the doctor has been fed lies and already made judgement on Francesco. So when Francesco arrives she greets him with an attitude, Francesco returns the attitude and everything OM has said just became fact to the doctor. The fact Francesco's wife does not defend Francesco and later apologize, makes it that more true. Participating players are Francesco's wife and OM, the doctor doesn't even know she was played by her husband. Tie a f-----g bow on it.
> 
> Sorry yeswecan, workplace affairs are terrible and very difficult to catch.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*My thoughts exactly but I hope I am wrong.* But Drifting's post lays it out and it is a perfect fit. 

It would be so easy for OM to set it up like this and OM's wife still be in the dark, even better for OM now that he has painted Francesco as a crazy bad husband


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## drifting on

G.J. said:


> Good idea to spell it out for Francesco as its what you intimated earlier but now it will be easier
> for Francesco to follow the reasing as English isn't his first language
> 
> Francesco This is
> Driftingons story ( Driftingon hope you didn't mind let me know if you want me to delete this)


G.J.

No problem at all, I feel for Francesco, it was the worst time of my life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Francesco

got time for a 2° update....
just to clarify, I don't think that OMW was warned or something like that before meeting her. Understand that i was that day a bit stressed out (nervous for this meeting and things going on with my dad) and when I am in that state of mind I show it.
So as soon as we arrived me and the omw already didn't like each other... guess it's a question of skin ph or something like that! Also i hate people that are snobs and she is one of them. Dont forget that this meeting was made after OMW and my W had finished a previous visit, so OMW was a bit annoyed that we met shortly after and upon my request, that I was the one who wanted to talk and meet her. In her mind why not wait for her next visit? and why not have my answers giving by my W. since she knows every thing? I couldn't tell her that i was there because i wanted to make it sure that the date's of the previous visits needed to match up with the receipts! So that's the reason for the "what's the pleasure of this visit?" After about 15 minutes of talk she came up and said what she said, and that got me mad, and i turned the table around that she might have a problem with her husband.Also i told her that if i give the impression of being insecure, she gives me the impression of having an open marriage with her husband (forgot to mention that before). During this exchange my W. was terribly embarrassed, every once she say something like: what are you saying Frank? My guess is that when my wife got the appointment she might of put the reason all on me. also OMW has not wanted money for the previous visits, and i guess this also embarrassed her.

Anyway.... the next day (SATURDAY) i was already at work since i spent the night in that 2 room at my headquarters and after 1 hour i logged on my cell. Sure enough it was full of her call's. Some even at 4:00 am, then many messages like please call back, i am worried... So i decided to call my D15 (it was 07:30 and by 08:00 she had to be in school, Saturday she has school). I gave her the good morning and by the way she talked it didn't seem that she knew anything, i wished her and S7 a good day and hung up. 5 seconds after my wife call's asking if all was ok and a mixed feeling of upset, worried and mad statements. I stopped her and told her that from now on i will show her the respect she has shown me, and to not wait for me this weekend. Tell the kids I'm sleeping overnight in the Hospital with my dad, witch was what i had really in mind to do. She was about to talk but i didn't give her a chance, so i hung up and shot down the cell again.
Did my morning shift, had lunch and went to the hospital to check on my dad, he was doing better (he is now out since last Wednesday btw), we had a great father and son conversation that i will remember with pleasure. I didn't tell him nothing about the situation, and after a long hug i told him that sunday i would be back.
Then i went over my PI friends house and gave him an update.... man was he pxssed! he also said that i can't never do his type of job! lol! Anyway he said now he will have OM followed at this point.... that made me laugh! 
I knew that D15 had to go over her girlfriends house by 17:00 so i turned on my cell to call her but didn't have time to dial that mine was ringing, guess who?
S7 was playing in his room and D15 was at her friends house, so she was alone in the bedroom when she called. She was crying and really really upset... even got me scared the way she was!
So i told her to have S7 go to friends house who also has a S7 and call me when done, and i will be home to talk.
So when i get there she doesn't even give me the time to get in and hugs me tight crying and almost suffocating me.
We had a long long talk. The highlights are:
- OM never attempted to get to her, he thought that my wife was worried about cancer, and till this day W. never told him it was about menopause.
- That she did wrong not telling me, but her intentions where not to hurt me, she just needed to understand. She confessed that lately she had very less desire for sex, and was afraid. Thats why she asked if i will always love her that night time ago.
- That the bench episode was when she got the certain response of menopause, and since OM saw her upset and not wanting to be invading her privacy he was only comforting me to not worry and all can be resolved. That his wife is a great doctor and that she will take care of her. And to tell me whatever was going on.
- That the white face was only because she was caught off guard seeing me and knew that i might get the wrong impression, nothing else.
In a few words she was very sincere, and also apologizing on every episode. She admitted that she might have crossed the boundary but honestly didn't think much bad about it, after all we had a stable and fulfilling healthy marriage... 

So i just looked at her... i said what did she think about OMW? She felt indebted towards her. She had helped out of her working hours, She had not taken even one euro, proved to be a good doctor.... but was in shock with what happened that day and was in total blackout. She said that she will find another doctor. And she did.
As for OM she swore to God to not go N.C unless for work issues. 
This will be clarified on my next update.... cause me and om did have a confrontation a couple of days after.
So that night i went back home and my wife has been till now very affectionate and caring, and so am i......


----------



## Francesco

BTW, I am reading every thread.... some are scary, others are great. I will try to answer where i can singly


----------



## Francesco

kenmoore14217 said:


> my two cents: your wife aborted the om child telling the Dr. that you are an abusive person and that's why she didn't want the baby to be born


this is one of the scary threads.... wow ken, i must read your story when i have time...


----------



## Francesco

Yeswecan said:


> It all depends on how aggressive Francesco appeared. Bedside manners will only do so far.
> 
> 
> And I agree that F should have been clear on what her H has been doing with his W at the park. Lunches, etc.


i was nervous, not aggressive. She was snobbish... 
I was clear upon what i thought of her husband and what i thought about her behavior. She said i was insecure, i made her understand that she was to much secure about her husband


----------



## Francesco

Tobyboy said:


> I'm still of the believe that Francesco wife is "playing" everyone here!!! Her husband, her target(OM), her Dr.(OM's wife).
> 
> All will be revealed........someday I hope.



no... i dont agree. she crossed some boundaries but never crossed THAT line....


----------



## tom67

Francesco said:


> i was nervous, not aggressive. She was snobbish...
> I was clear upon what i thought of her husband and what i thought about her behavior. She said i was insecure, i made her understand that she was to much secure about her husband


Maybe they have some bizzare relationship who knows.
Screw them.


----------



## Tobyboy

Francesco,

Why all the lies? Why laugh at you when you brought it up? Why hide this "friendship"? They look very comfortable together, like when couples first start dating!!!

Something still not right with your W excuses!!!


----------



## G.J.

Just a quick response as I haven't time at minute but the parts about she had very less desire for sex is different from what you have typed before on here

The Docs statement _'she said that *now she understands the reason *why my wife doesn't talk with me about certain things, and that i am maybe an insecure person'_ is still not explained as who has told her?

There are other points that need clarifying but I will ask later if no one else brings them up when I get time

Good news with your father


----------



## convert

Thanks for the up date Francesco, I am glad it all seems just to boundary and communication issues.

can you tell us a little about the confrontation with OM


----------



## Francesco

Tobyboy said:


> Francesco,
> 
> Why all the lies? Why laugh at you when you brought it up? Why hide this "friendship"? They look very comfortable together, like when couples first start dating!!!
> 
> Something still not right with your W excuses!!!


According to her she didn't lie upon nothing.... she just omitted the real reason why OM was there. She did not want to tell me straight out "i think i am starting to have a menopause" ... for her it was something to be sure of before telling me. 
Also they know each other for over i don't know how many years... but she did admit that it was looking bad from the outside and after my blowout she realized that for me it was from the inside also and apologized.
in a few words she didn't think bad of it.... but 2 day after i will prove her that it was! i will explane better on my next update


----------



## Tobyboy

Francesco said:


> According to her she didn't lie upon nothing.... she just omitted the real reason why OM was there. She did not want to tell me straight out "i think i am starting to have a menopause" ... for her it was something to be sure of before telling me.
> Also they know each other for over i don't know how many years... but she did admit that it was looking bad from the outside and after my blowout she realized that for me it was from the inside also and apologized.
> in a few words she didn't think bad of it.... but 2 day after i will prove her that it was! i will explane better on my next update


Ok.... It would be believable if it hadn't gone on for over 4 months!!!


----------



## Francesco

G.J. said:


> Just a quick response as I haven't time at minute but the parts about she had very less desire for sex is different from what you have typed before on here
> 
> The Docs statement _'she said that now she understands the reason why my wife doesn't talk with me about certain things, and that i am maybe an insecure person'_ is still not explained as who has told her?
> 
> There are other points that need clarifying but I will ask later if no one else brings them up when I get time
> 
> Good news with your father


i got time to answer this one then i need to go also.
1) she was already prevented for me insisting to meet
2) she understood when i pulled out the receipts that my intentions where also certain confirmations
3) She couldn't understand why i had not talked with my wife since what she had to say was the same what my wife couldve said


----------



## Francesco

convert said:


> Thanks for the up date Francesco, I am glad it all seems just to boundary and communication issues.
> 
> can you tell us a little about the confrontation with OM


yes i will tomorrow, got to go now at home 
but i will say that i got him to admit some things


----------



## Decorum

You're killing me here, but thanks for the update.

The good news here Francesco is that now Om knows that you are the real deal (a man of action). This reminds me of Bayarea's thread, by the time he was done OM would not even breath in his wifes direction.

Good for you for talking to OM.

To this day BA's wife feels the marriage is better than its ever been.

Thanks again for the update.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Q tip

i hope your w now realizes lies are lies AND omissions are lies just as bad. it is marriage, not hide and seek childrens games...

i think you are upgrading her judgement a lot lately. she will take care now. anything she does not do with you she does not do elsewhere.

but still, her comfortable body language, hand holding and tear wiping by OM... I hope you've put OM on notice in a way he might just understand he's a pig.


----------



## drifting on

Francesco

I still have doubts but will await your update. Her reaction with the doctor was very unapropriate as was the doctors. I hope she understands had someone disrespected your wife like that doctor did you, you would have unleashed a verbal tyrade. She didn't, that is very concerning. The fact she couldn't see a boundary was crossed on several occasions is very concerning. I will type out my response to your update and submit it after your next update. All that she has said is excuses though, be careful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on

That's great news about your father being home and you having a talk with him you will carry with you forever. Peace.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Q tip

F wife sharing and crying with OM is unacceptable.

the logic of not sharing with the man she loves and married, but with such ease w/OM is also as unacceptable.

I do hope F had a VAR at home to know who she might have called for more comfort... or at least check phone records.


----------



## bandit.45

Francesco said:


> According to her she didn't lie upon nothing.... she just omitted the real reason why OM was there. She did not want to tell me straight out "i think i am starting to have a menopause" ... for her it was something to be sure of before telling me.


:rofl:

Cazzate...:rofl:

That doctor is a pezzo di merda...

And your wife is a bugiarda. Sorry my friend. She is lying through her pretty teeth. 

Since when does a patient meet her doctor in a park? 

Come on Francesco... qual è il problema con te?


----------



## Q tip

Unless I missed it, she was with OM there at park bench. She met OMW the doc at office. With OM too


----------



## bandit.45

Q tip said:


> Unless I missed it, she was with OM there at park bench. She met OMW the doc at office. With OM too


OOOOOOOPS!!!!

Bad Bandit!!! You are right. I forgot the story. But then there have been so many like this one. I can't keep them straight.


----------



## italianjob

Francesco,

while we wait for the next part, I will point out some things I'm not comfortable with:

1. Your wife said that the doctor didn't charge one euro for her services. If that is true, how did your wife have receipts for her appointments?
In Italy, when a professional wants to do something free of charge he/she needs to act like it never happened, because he/she can't write a receipt with no charge or the Tax Office will be on him/her in no time. If your wife had receipts for her visits the doctor MUST have written an amount on them. It means the doctor not only treated your wife free of charge but will pay taxes on money she never got! It sounds a bit too generous.
Can you explain better how this worked?

2. Did someone explain why 5 appointments and almost 4 months were needed to diagnose menopause? It sounds a bit too much.

3. If the OM didn't know about her problems what were the papers they were looking at together when your friend saw them coming out of OMW office?

4. Her excuses don't really hold up, are you aware of that? It's too much time and too many appointments to hide behind "I didn't want to tell you because you would be worried". Besides, when you caught her TWO times, any thinking person would have come clean, if her motivations were only those explained. It's just not believable that your wife would risk her marriage, or at least some serious marital problems, just to hide the fact that she was investigating a possible menopause (and at that point, if she didn't already know the exact diagnosis, she likely knew that it would probably lead to that, so she would have had to tell you anyway in a few days).

I also would like to remind you that she didn't come clean on her own, you had to tell her someone had seen her. But she knew about the menopause already, what was the point of keeping it hidden? It's not a problem that would go away...

Mind you, Francesco, I'm among those who think that you caught this in time, before it became physical (which I know it's your deal breaker), but I think your wife is not owning her half of this story. She knew where she was headed and was flattered by OMs attention, at least in the last few weeks, that's my opinion.

If you really want to get out of this and have good chances nothing like it happens again, she needs to own her end of the deal, IMO.

I'm really happy your dad is better


----------



## italianjob

bandit.45 said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Cazzate...:rofl:
> 
> That doctor is a pezzo di merda...
> 
> And your wife is a bugiarda. Sorry my friend. She is lying through her pretty teeth.
> 
> Since when does a patient meet her doctor in a park?
> 
> Come on Francesco... qual è il problema con te?


Grande, bandit! You are a real surprise!

Sei italiano?

If you're not... kudos for your use of the language!


----------



## Francesco

Q tip said:


> F wife sharing and crying with OM is unacceptable.
> 
> the logic of not sharing with the man she loves and married, but with such ease w/OM is also as unacceptable.
> 
> I do hope F had a VAR at home to know who she might have called for more comfort... or at least check phone records.



Before i write the last update, i will answer some questions.

No Q., i did not have a var, it is useless here for legal reasons. I have a timeline of every thing on my pc at work saved. All that has happened day by day.


----------



## Francesco

bandit.45 said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Cazzate...:rofl:
> 
> That doctor is a pezzo di merda...
> 
> And your wife is a bugiarda. Sorry my friend. She is lying through her pretty teeth.
> 
> Since when does a patient meet her doctor in a park?
> 
> Come on Francesco... qual è il problema con te?


mi stò pisciando dalle risate!! Complimenti per il tuo italiano!
A little correction: the bench was in the city near work, not in a park 
I'd say she made some white lies... not something that she could be finger pointed at...


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> Francesco,
> 
> while we wait for the next part, I will point out some things I'm not comfortable with:
> 
> 1. Your wife said that the doctor didn't charge one euro for her services. If that is true, how did your wife have receipts for her appointments?
> In Italy, when a professional wants to do something free of charge he/she needs to act like it never happened, because he/she can't write a receipt with no charge or the Tax Office will be on him/her in no time. If your wife had receipts for her visits the doctor MUST have written an amount on them. It means the doctor not only treated your wife free of charge but will pay taxes on money she never got! It sounds a bit too generous.
> Can you explain better how this worked?
> 
> 2. Did someone explain why 5 appointments and almost 4 months were needed to diagnose menopause? It sounds a bit too much.
> 
> 3. If the OM didn't know about her problems what were the papers they were looking at together when your friend saw them coming out of OMW office?
> 
> 4. Her excuses don't really hold up, are you aware of that? It's too much time and too many appointments to hide behind "I didn't want to tell you because you would be worried". Besides, when you caught her TWO times, any thinking person would have come clean, if her motivations were only those explained. It's just not believable that your wife would risk her marriage, or at least some serious marital problems, just to hide the fact that she was investigating a possible menopause (and at that point, if she didn't already know the exact diagnosis, she likely knew that it would probably lead to that, so she would have had to tell you anyway in a few days).
> 
> I also would like to remind you that she didn't come clean on her own, you had to tell her someone had seen her. But she knew about the menopause already, what was the point of keeping it hidden? It's not a problem that would go away...
> 
> Mind you, Francesco, I'm among those who think that you caught this in time, before it became physical (which I know it's your deal breaker), but I think your wife is not owning her half of this story. She knew where she was headed and was flattered by OMs attention, at least in the last few weeks, that's my opinion.
> 
> If you really want to get out of this and have good chances nothing like it happens again, she needs to own her end of the deal, IMO.
> 
> I'm really happy your dad is better


ok, this is a long one:
1) the external exams such as blood test where writing on the white receipt, not the national classic red one (mutuabile), son they where made privately and paid apart, while the one's that she did in her office such as sonograms and mammogram where done by OMW directly.
Understand that OMW received my wife OUT of her working hours, and that is something that you do for a family member usually. So the external exams had receipts but the ones made in her office had only the results written just for the private records.
2) actually 3 months, the 1° appointment in October was only to meet OMW; In November there where 2 appointments, 1° with the female coworker for a general visit (also pap test), the 2° with OM waiting outside was for a mammogram and for a request of blood hormonal tests. The 3° and 4° visit was in December, the third was to check the results of the blood test's and she also made a sonogram, then also OMW asked to take also thyroid tests. The forth appointment was to do the final consultation of all the exams and start with a brand of contraceptives pill's. The last visit in January was to change the brand of the pill cause it made her feel not good and also to do a bone minerolometria (hope i translated it wright).
3) Wife had told OM only that she had to do some blood test's and was showing OM witch one's, OM said that if she didn't know where to go he had a friend who could do them in fast time, she declined and went to one nearby our place that we know already.
4) this part is what i was thinking also, but then again thinking that the visits where made on OMW free time it does make sense.... I mean it's like: this week i am pretty busy, let's see for next... something like that. Also she had decided to tell me all on the weekend when my dad started to feel bad... but she did not want to aggravate more my stress. :scratchhead:

Did i stop something that was getting out of control? who knows... but for sure i first put my wife back on track and then also put OM in his place.


----------



## Decorum

I'm confused. What were the "white lies" in all of this?


----------



## manfromlamancha

italianjob said:


> Francesco,
> 
> while we wait for the next part, I will point out some things I'm not comfortable with:
> 
> 1. Your wife said that the doctor didn't charge one euro for her services. If that is true, how did your wife have receipts for her appointments?
> In Italy, when a professional wants to do something free of charge he/she needs to act like it never happened, because he/she can't write a receipt with no charge or the Tax Office will be on him/her in no time. If your wife had receipts for her visits the doctor MUST have written an amount on them. It means the doctor not only treated your wife free of charge but will pay taxes on money she never got! It sounds a bit too generous.
> Can you explain better how this worked?
> 
> 2. Did someone explain why 5 appointments and almost 4 months were needed to diagnose menopause? It sounds a bit too much.
> 
> 3. If the OM didn't know about her problems what were the papers they were looking at together when your friend saw them coming out of OMW office?
> 
> 4. Her excuses don't really hold up, are you aware of that? It's too much time and too many appointments to hide behind "I didn't want to tell you because you would be worried". Besides, when you caught her TWO times, any thinking person would have come clean, if her motivations were only those explained. It's just not believable that your wife would risk her marriage, or at least some serious marital problems, just to hide the fact that she was investigating a possible menopause (and at that point, if she didn't already know the exact diagnosis, she likely knew that it would probably lead to that, so she would have had to tell you anyway in a few days).
> 
> I also would like to remind you that she didn't come clean on her own, you had to tell her someone had seen her. But she knew about the menopause already, what was the point of keeping it hidden? It's not a problem that would go away...
> 
> Mind you, Francesco, I'm among those who think that you caught this in time, before it became physical (which I know it's your deal breaker), but I think your wife is not owning her half of this story. She knew where she was headed and was flattered by OMs attention, at least in the last few weeks, that's my opinion.
> 
> If you really want to get out of this and have good chances nothing like it happens again, she needs to own her end of the deal, IMO.
> 
> I'm really happy your dad is better


I completely agree with this. I am only slightly acquainted with the Italian system although this appears to have been conducted in a private health manner (I have worked in Milano, Roma, Torino and Genoa). All those tests should have been conducted in a day - the same day. 

And the attitude of the OMW was still confrontational. 

Why did the OMW do this for free ? As a favour to whom?

I still feel you may have nipped something in the bud here. Will wait to hear about OM confrontation.


----------



## italianjob

Francesco said:


> 1) the external exams such as blood test where writing on the white receipt, not the national classic red one (mutuabile), son they where made privately and paid apart, while the one's that she did in her office such as sonograms and mammogram where done by OMW directly.
> Understand that OMW received my wife OUT of her working hours, and that is something that you do for a family member usually. So the external exams had receipts but the ones made in her office had only the results written just for the private records.


Ok Francesco, there was a problem with translation here. the word "Receipt" is what is called a "false friend", it sounds like the italian word "Ricetta" (which is "Prescription") but it means "Ricevuta". So you were talking about Prescriptions and I was talking about Receipts. All clear now :smthumbup: I just hope that every single visit is somehow documented with a date. 



Francesco said:


> 2) actually 3 months, the 1° appointment in October was only to meet OMW; In November there where 2 appointments, 1° with the female coworker for a general visit (also pap test), the 2° with OM waiting outside was for a mammogram and for a request of blood hormonal tests. The 3° and 4° visit was in December, the third was to check the results of the blood test's and she also made a sonogram, then also OMW asked to take also thyroid tests. The forth appointment was to do the final consultation of all the exams and start with a brand of contraceptives pill's. The last visit in January was to change the brand of the pill cause it made her feel not good and also to do a bone minerolometria (hope i translated it wright).


Wait a minute. I'm getting confused here: you saw your wife getting out of OMs car a couple of days before Christmas and again shortly after Epiphany, so in early January, and your friend saw them at the doctor's at end of January or early February, right? So: either that timetable is wrong or there was a sixth appointment.
More important: it is quite clear that the diagnosis was already done in the second December appointment, when she was prescribed medications. So the first time you saw her she already knew what the problem was.




Francesco said:


> 4) this part is what i was thinking also, but then again thinking that the visits where made on OMW free time it does make sense.... I mean it's like: this week i am pretty busy, let's see for next... something like that. Also she had decided to tell me all on the weekend when my dad started to feel bad... but she did not want to aggravate more my stress. :scratchhead:


No, it doesn't make sense at all. Why would the fact that the visits were made on OMW free time have anything to do with what I pointed out to you?
What I was saying is:
- You see her coming out of OMs car, she turns white because she know you might think there is something wrong with it;
- At this point she has been hiding her gyno visit from you since at least early November. If this is really all that she has been hiding why would she continue to lie (when asked) and risk that you think she was cheating on you? Besides, we have seen that she already knew at this point what the diagnosis was and she would have had to tell you anyway, so why cover it with a lie?
It doesn't make any sense :scratchhead: it makes even less sense if she was really thinking she was doing nothing wrong.
I hope I have been clear, this time. 


I think you have done most things right, but should expect more responsibility from your wife. Getting away from this like she was doing nothing wrong might open the door to more inappropriate behavior in the future IMO


----------



## Francesco

Final update.
So when she gave me all the answers and was terribly sorry for what she made me think also owning her faults, she was very affectionate. From that following Monday she started to make at home the food for her lunch break in order to not go out for it.
She also seems pleased and happy for what i did, even if it was bit out of control. She keeps telling me how she appreciates the way I care for her, and how stupid she was for making me think the things i was thinking.
But then on Wednesday evening, while we were at home, I told her that I needed to do one last thing to feel totally ok.... that i needed to have a talk with OM. She was a little puzzled but understood the reason. I told her that i wanted to do it that next morning (never know if she could aware him) before they start there work shift. I had to start my shift at 10:00, so i had the time. At first she was questioning me for the real reason not to do it in a more comfortable time, then she just looked at me and said ok... come with me tomorrow morning and do what you want but be polite. Sure i will.....
Next morning I'm driving her to work, park the car and together we walk to the front building, shortly after OM arrives they say hi and i asked him if he had a minute to talk, that i had the pleasure to offer him a cup of coffee. He said why not, probably thinking that my wife would come also, and i think that my wife was thinking the same thing until i told her "ok honey, i will see you back home, come OM there's a bar right there. Saw my wife nodding her head and smiling while she was going in.
So we get in and sit in at a table, and the first thing i told him was if he knew why i wanted to talk. He said that he had an idea, that his wife informed him about the last visit and that he thought it was not that the case. Before letting him finish i popped in and said to him "well, i think that i was not the case to be so friendly with my wife. That if some other man was to do the same with his wife if he would be ok with that. He answered in a classic way, that he trusted his wife and that they did not have problems of any sort. I told him that i trust my wife also, but that i didn't like him nor his wife. That from now on to mind his own business or i will be taking care of his. I was talking in a calm and firmly voice. He started to say that he has only friendly intentions and never second intentions. So i told him then don't you ever try being affectionate like you have been when on day xx you were at a bench on x street! He looked shocked, and i went on saying that i know more then what he thinks, and that the next time we wouldn't be having a coffee to put the things in clear. Then i asked if he thinks it's ok for a married person to be so concerned with another married person? he apologized, wasn't his intentions to create problems and that he would only keep a professional attitude and nothing else. I said I know you will, and i will know if you wont. He also said that maybe he was taking to much at heart the situation and was sorry for the problems caused. I just told him that now there are not any problems, but if in the future there will be, then he wont see it coming. He asked if i was threatening him, that he is a public investigator, i said no i'm just warning you, and that i am a public armed guard man that i can become a private axxhole for him. 
Got both up from the table and he said that ther is no reason to be harsh on each other, and that he will stand back and mind his own business, i said good! we both will have loner lives. Without shacking hands we said by, and i added that i will find out if he is saying the truth when i get home again with my wife, so lets see how serious your taking this, then we and left.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Wow Francesco! Well done. Still trying to work out whether you from the North (calmness and determination) or the South (fire, aggression, passion).


----------



## italianjob

Good confrontation with OM!

But clear every aspect with your wife, so that nothing like this happens again...


----------



## Chaparral

Very good. We have way too many men here that do not understand why confronting the other man is necessary. NOT confronting is the same as a green light to the OM and proof of weakness to his wife. Weakness that shows he is not mate material.


----------



## G.J.

Still don't understand why when asked earlier in the post if the sex had dropped off Francesco said no it hadn't and yesterday he said 'that's why she wasn't into sex'
Also with the times caught at dinner times ref Franceso from 16th jan


> 16 jan
> Thats right, our lunch times are different. I managed the fist time to o cause my boss needed a ride near her work place, so i taught i surprise her, thats when it was the white face and thats why i decided to return again almost a week after. I had a coworker of mine that covered my back for one hour. that time again they where together. a bit embarrassed.
> The third time was yesterday but it was my friend who saw and called me. Today he will repeat it.
> Yes, she has seen me a little pissed a week ago when i first saw it, but i think that since then i kept it cool, in fact she acts normal at home when we are together, doesn't seem to suspect that i am keeping an eye on her


----------



## G.J.

ADD

He also said in your conversation


> That if some other man was to do the same with his wife if he would be ok with that. He answered in a classic way, that he trusted his wife and *that they did not have problems of any sort*


He is intimating you have problems so your wife must have told him about your private life
As it compares to what his wife said to you when you confronted her

And she said she hadn't taken the pills earlier on in this thread....now she says they upset her???


> The forth appointment was to do the final consultation of all the exams and start with a brand of contraceptives pill's. The last visit in January was to change the brand of the pill cause it made her feel not good


Will your friend and you be doing spot checks now and then at dinners later toward the end of the month as I doubt anything will happen for a while now IF there was anything going on


----------



## Chaparral

G.J. said:


> Still don't understand why when asked earlier in the post if the sex had dropped off Francesco said no it hadn't and yesterday he said 'that's why she wasn't into sex'
> Also with the times caught at dinner times ref Franceso from 16th jan


She said her desire dropped off. Frequency was the same. Lack of desire was one of her menopause symptoms.


----------



## drifting on

Francesco

I don't have time at the moment for a reply to show you all the lies you have been told by both your wife and OM.
I can tell you there are more holes in this story than you can see, why, you are getting gaslighting at its finest. I had the same holes, same lies, but hopefully not the same conclusion for your sake. Biggest lie with no explanation from you, she laughed and said I knew you were going to ask that. Francesco your wife had time to come clean right here, she knew what you thought, she knew what it looked like but what did she do Francesco? LIED. Then tells you she hopes you will be there in the future. Why say this Francesco? Her answer is a lie, she's scared that sex and desire for sex has dropped off, why? It wasn't for a medical reason!!! She is lying and you know this. How long before she came clean to you? How long did you say a friend saw her? Did she tell you anything you didn't know already? NO!!! Did she come clean on her own about the bench? NO!!! Why Francesco, WHY???

This rabbit hole runs deep my friend, I only hope your head isn't stuck in the sand. I'll be back to show more lies but I have to go for now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Yeswecan

Whatever the case, there is little hard evidence that anything has occurred other then not going to F with her problems. OM more than likely looking to make a play. 

Further, F did not show his hand on how he is aware of what has been going on. The affection at the park, etc. This keeps OM looking over his shoulder. 

Francesco, you have stood your ground and laid claim to your W and family. Good job!


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> Ok Francesco, there was a problem with translation here. the word "Receipt" is what is called a "false friend", it sounds like the italian word "Ricetta" (which is "Prescription") but it means "Ricevuta". So you were talking about Prescriptions and I was talking about Receipts. All clear now :smthumbup: I just hope that every single visit is somehow documented with a date.
> 
> *exactly... sorry with my bad English *
> 
> 
> 
> Wait a minute. I'm getting confused here: you saw your wife getting out of OMs car a couple of days before Christmas and again shortly after Epiphany, so in early January, and your friend saw them at the doctor's at end of January or early February, right? So: either that timetable is wrong or there was a sixth appointment.
> More important: it is quite clear that the diagnosis was already done in the second December appointment, when she was prescribed medications. So the first time you saw her she already knew what the problem was.
> 
> *in total she went to OMW 6 times: 1 in October, 2 in November, 2 in December and 1 in January. The first time was only for meeting, the others times as i posted. And YES... she knew already by December she was officially diagnosis. The only reason she gave me for not telling immediately was because she herself needed to get it, then was waiting for a better timing to tell me. She wanted to wait for after the Holiday's to not ruin or upset us. Cant find something wrong with that, but she had told me that she should've done it to avoid what happened. *
> 
> 
> No, it doesn't make sense at all. Why would the fact that the visits were made on OMW free time have anything to do with what I pointed out to you?
> What I was saying is:
> - You see her coming out of OMs car, she turns white because she know you might think there is something wrong with it;
> - At this point she has been hiding her gyno visit from you since at least early November. If this is really all that she has been hiding why would she continue to lie (when asked) and risk that you think she was cheating on you? Besides, we have seen that she already knew at this point what the diagnosis was and she would have had to tell you anyway, so why cover it with a lie?
> It doesn't make any sense :scratchhead: it makes even less sense if she was really thinking she was doing nothing wrong.
> I hope I have been clear, this time.
> 
> *She said that she didn't realized she got white faced, but she was surprised seeing me there, the first thing she thought was something wrong with the kids, then felt embarrassed to have been seen alone and in her mind she knew it didn't look good. She convinced herself that I (me husband) knew her well enough to not think something wrong. *
> 
> 
> I think you have done most things right, but should expect more responsibility from your wife. Getting away from this like she was doing nothing wrong might open the door to more inappropriate behavior in the future IMO


*Oh she is very responsible now... she actually told me that me leaving and spending the night out made her go crazy, didn't sleep and starting to feel sick. I reminder her that if she ever put me in that situation again SHE was the one who would have to leave *


----------



## Francesco

manfromlamancha said:


> Wow Francesco! Well done. Still trying to work out whether you from the North (calmness and determination) or the South (fire, aggression, passion).


I was born in TURIN, my Father worked at the FIAT. But both my parents and my Wife's family are Sicilians. Before my wife, me and my Family every summer went to Sicily for the summer vacations. Then my Father went in retirement and went back in Sicily for good. A couple of years after I followed them also and that is when i meet my wife.


----------



## convert

did you ask your wife if OM said anything to her after you had your TALK with him?


----------



## Francesco

G.J. said:


> Still don't understand why when asked earlier in the post if the sex had dropped off Francesco said no it hadn't and yesterday he said 'that's why she wasn't into sex'
> Also with the times caught at dinner times ref Franceso from 16th jan


For me it was normal, it was her that had less interest but still she kept doing it to not make me have worries. We were having sex even if she did not have desires


----------



## Francesco

G.J. said:


> ADD
> 
> He also said in your conversation
> 
> He is intimating you have problems so your wife must have told him about your private life
> As it compares to what his wife said to you when you confronted her
> 
> And she said she hadn't taken the pills earlier on in this thread....now she says they upset her???
> 
> 
> Will your friend and you be doing spot checks now and then at dinners later toward the end of the month as I doubt anything will happen for a while now IF there was anything going on


OM was trying to pull the same bs of his wife of being insecure, he didn't say it but the way he was talking made me understand that. The pill's more then getting her "upset" made her feel like sick... she never took pills so i guess that the brand was a type that didn't match with her female hormones or whatever... i'am not an expert on this stuff


----------



## G.J.

> but i will say that i got him to admit some things


*What did you get him to admit ?*



> That the bench episode was when she got the certain response of menopause, and since OM saw her upset and not wanting to be invading her privacy he was only comforting me to not worry and all can be resolved. That his wife is a great doctor and that she will take care of her. And to tell me whatever was going on


*So he informed her that day of result ?*



> Then i went over my PI friends house and gave him an update.... man was he pxssed! he also said that i can't never do his type of job! lol! Anyway he said now he will have OM followed at this point.... that made me laugh!


*So is he carrying on with spot checks...are you ??*

Hey Sicily..any where near Raffadalli ?


----------



## Francesco

drifting on said:


> Francesco
> 
> I don't have time at the moment for a reply to show you all the lies you have been told by both your wife and OM.
> I can tell you there are more holes in this story than you can see, why, you are getting gaslighting at its finest. I had the same holes, same lies, but hopefully not the same conclusion for your sake. Biggest lie with no explanation from you, she laughed and said I knew you were going to ask that. Francesco your wife had time to come clean right here, she knew what you thought, she knew what it looked like but what did she do Francesco? LIED. Then tells you she hopes you will be there in the future. Why say this Francesco? Her answer is a lie, she's scared that sex and desire for sex has dropped off, why? It wasn't for a medical reason!!! She is lying and you know this. How long before she came clean to you? How long did you say a friend saw her? Did she tell you anything you didn't know already? NO!!! Did she come clean on her own about the bench? NO!!! Why Francesco, WHY???
> 
> This rabbit hole runs deep my friend, I only hope your head isn't stuck in the sand. I'll be back to show more lies but I have to go for now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


very valid points... When she laughed she told me it was because she found it funny that i would think something bad about it, like if it was something silly of me. :scratchhead:
For me to be there in the future is when she already knew she was in menopause, and was wondering if i would always be so kind and patient with her. Till this day she has no idea i had her followed, that my friend was on surveillance. She thinks that some coworker of hers told me things she didn't say or mention, but she never asked me who. She came clean telling me that twice she had gone with OM at a local celeriac restaurant with om's car.
Well.... i can see that her responses dont seem fully convincing, but from how i know her and how she talks to me, i believe her. In honesty i also believe that she probably liked the attention of OM (like most woman and men do) but never had bad intentions


----------



## Francesco

convert said:


> did you ask your wife if OM said anything to her after you had your TALK with him?


yes. she said that OM said that she has one hell (corna dure) of a husband. Then he made a joke about the next time she find a ride with a female coworker or a taxi, it was said just to calm the waters. My wife told him that she is the one to blame and handled the situation poorly.


----------



## Francesco

G.J. said:


> *What did you get him to admit ?*
> 
> 
> *So he informed her that day of result ?*
> 
> 
> *So is he carrying on with spot checks...are you ??*
> 
> Hey Sicily..any where near Raffadalli ?


he admitted that he might of been to friendly for married people.

he wasn't informed of no results, he just saw my wife upset and tried to make her stay calm.

what are spot checks?

No, we live in Palermo.


----------



## adriana

Francesco, I don't have time to post right now but this story makes no sense. It really doesn't.

I'm not a betting girl, but if I had no choice, I would put may money that your wife had an affair with the OM and they ended it when you caught them returning from their lanch dates. Like I said before.... they both had too much to lose on professional and personal level to continue it.

I'm sorry, Francesco, but you still don't have the truth. Your wife has been lying from the very beginning and she will never admit to anything. She is Italian woman who would lose her "precious" reputation if she did and, for this reason, she will take her secret to the grave. Confronting the OM was just a desperate theatrick on your part that accomplished absolutely nothing and quite likely they both had a good laugh about it later. 

I also would like to add that I'm rather disappointed with the way your friend conducted "investigation" of this matter. I'm an amatuer but I would do it better.


----------



## convert

adriana said:


> Francesco, I don't have time to post right now but this story makes no sense. It really doesn't.
> 
> I'm not a betting girl, but if I had no choice, I would put may money that your wife had an affair with the OM and they ended it when you caught them returning from their lanch dates. Like I said before.... they both had too much to lose on professional and personal level to continue it.
> 
> I'm sorry, Francesco, but you still don't have the truth. Your wife has been lying from the very beginning and she will never admit to anything. She is Italian woman who would lose her "precious" reputation if she did and, for this reason, she will take her secret to the grave. *Confronting the OM was just a desperate theatrick on your part that accomplished absolutely nothing* and quite likely they both had a good laugh about it later.
> 
> I also would like to add that I'm rather disappointed with the way your friend conducted "investigation" of this matter. I'm an amatuer but I would do it better.


I don't know, OM now knows that Francesco carries a loaded gun


----------



## Francesco

adriana said:


> Francesco, I don't have time to post right now but this story makes no sense. It really doesn't.
> 
> I'm not a betting girl, but if I had no choice, I would put may money that your wife had an affair with the OM and they ended it when you caught them returning from their lanch dates. Like I said before.... they both had too much to lose on professional and personal level to continue it.
> 
> I'm sorry, Francesco, but you still don't have the truth. Your wife has been lying from the very beginning and she will never admit to anything. She is Italian woman who would lose her "precious" reputation if she did and, for this reason, she will take her secret to the grave. Confronting the OM was just a desperate theatrick on your part that accomplished absolutely nothing and quite likely they both had a good laugh about it later.
> 
> I also would like to add that I'm rather disappointed with the way your friend conducted "investigation" of this matter. I'm an amatuer but I would do it better.



ouch!
according to you i have a good actress at home? i am not being sarcastic nor mad or whatever, just wondering...
my friend already told me i did wrong, thats why he said i cant do his type of job.


----------



## G.J.

> She came clean telling me that twice she had gone with OM at a local celeriac restaurant with om's car.


*what............

My wife just fell off her chair and I didn't understand what she said as my Italian is poor my Sicilian is terrible*

Spot Checks = To do surveillance occasionally from time to time


----------



## Tobyboy

Has your wife confessed to anything without you pressing her? 

This is the biggest dose of gaslighting I've ever read on TAM!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## manfromlamancha

Francesco said:


> I was born in TURIN, my Father worked at the FIAT. But both my parents and my Wife's family are Sicilians. Before my wife, me and my Family every summer went to Sicily for the summer vacations. Then my Father went in retirement and went back in Sicily for good. A couple of years after I followed them also and that is when i meet my wife.


Yes I also consulted for the Fiat Group in Turin! In IT! Small world - mind you, FIAT is the main employer there (but being badly run). And a very good friend of mine who is also a Sicilian moved to Turin for work and then back to Sicily! No comparison between the lifestyles or food!

OK so you know enough to know how to bring this under control - there is still something that is not quite right - just be vigilant! Your wife sounds like she loves you but handled her boundaries badly. Also maybe she was starting to respond to the attention of the idiot OM. I think you gave her a good wake up call! Your confrontation with him was perfect and if he is also a Sicilian he should understand, and if he is not, he should be very scared! 

Take care my friend!


----------



## italianjob

Francesco said:


> She came clean telling me that twice she had gone with OM at a local celeriac restaurant with om's car.


Wow, I almost spilled my drink reading this one...

So, I was right about the timetable not adding up, one of the two times you saw her she wasn't at OMW office. 



> She said that she didn't realized she got white faced, but she was surprised seeing me there, the first thing she thought was something wrong with the kids, then felt embarrassed to have been seen alone and in her mind she knew it didn't look good. She convinced herself that I (me husband) knew her well enough to not think something wrong.


This is BS, Francesco, and also the thing about not finding a good time to tell you about menopause. It's not like it was a terminal illness or something to avoid to bring it up during the holidays.


I hate to tell you this Francesco, since I can almost touch your desire to leave all this behind you and move on, but I think there are still big holes in this story, and that your wife is still lying about those parts. I think you don't have the full story yet...


----------



## Francesco

Tobyboy said:


> Has your wife confessed to anything without you pressing her?
> 
> This is the biggest dose of gaslighting I've ever read on TAM!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



no pressure... the only thing i told her that she didn't say was the bench episode, the rest came from her.


----------



## Tobyboy

Ask your friend if your wife acted worried and scared when she was out with her OM!!!!!


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> *Oh she is very responsible now... she actually told me that me leaving and spending the night out made her go crazy, didn't sleep and starting to feel sick. I reminder her that if she ever put me in that situation again SHE was the one who would have to leave *



I love it when a man goes caveman and claims his property. Alpha moves makes OM run away. Makes W pay attention. Good all around. 

For all you betas out there. Take notes. Life is real, not your betaized indoctrination!!!

OM is shaking in his wee little shoes now. He has no idea what hit him. 

Good work. Excellent!!!!!


----------



## Francesco

italianjob said:


> Wow, I almost spilled my drink reading this one...
> 
> So, I was right about the timetable not adding up, one of the two times you saw her she wasn't at OMW office.
> 
> 
> 
> This is BS, Francesco, and also the thing about not finding a good time to tell you about menopause. It's not like it was a terminal illness or something to avoid to bring it up during the holidays.
> 
> 
> I hate to tell you this Francesco, since I can almost touch your desire to leave all this behind you and move on, but I think there are still big holes in this story, and that your wife is still lying about those parts. I think you don't have the full story yet...



yes, to clarify the restaurant thing, it's not a romantic place to go eat, it's a simple "fast food" celiac place.
Anyway i do realize that many think that am being gaslighted, but it's not the impression that i have. Maybe she felt good with the attentions, but i dont think it was for sex or looking for an affair. Many women give me the looks and i just smile back, it makes me feel good but for sure i wont ask them to have a drink, and thats where my wife realized her mistake. Even if it was a good friend coworker of years, it still was bad and she apologies many times for this


----------



## Francesco

Tobyboy said:


> Ask your friend if your wife acted worried and scared when she was out with her OM!!!!!


my friend was pxssed at me for not having patience... he said if it was to arrest a person i wouldve blow up the plan! Anyway he is also convinced that my wife didn't do something foolish, but he wanted to wait and organize things in a better way


----------



## Q tip

Also, check phone records for her calls to anyone while you stayed at the apartment. Home and cell.


----------



## Tobyboy

Francesco said:


> yes, to clarify the restaurant thing, it's not a romantic place to go eat, it's a simple "fast food" celiac place.
> Anyway i do realize that many think that am being gaslighted, but it's not the impression that i have. Maybe she felt good with the attentions, but i dont think it was for sex or looking for an affair. Many women give me the looks and i just smile back, it makes me feel good but for sure i wont ask them to have a drink, and thats where my wife realized her mistake. Even if it was a good friend coworker of years, it still was bad and she apologies many times for this


We'll at least you know what your wife is capable of, and the length of lying and manipulating she is willing to go to get what she wants!!! Good luck. You ain't out of the woods by any means.


----------



## Q tip

Francesco said:


> yes. she said that OM said that she has one hell (corna dure) of a husband. Then he made a joke about the next time she find a ride with a female coworker or a taxi, it was said just to calm the waters. My wife told him that she is the one to blame and handled the situation poorly.



What the hell. NC means NC!!!! Violation day one!!! And wife apologized. Again. She needs to stand up too. 

I understand. Just making a point.


----------



## italianjob

Francesco said:


> yes, to clarify the restaurant thing, it's not a romantic place to go eat, it's a simple "fast food" celiac place.
> Anyway i do realize that many think that am being gaslighted, but it's not the impression that i have. Maybe she felt good with the attentions, but i dont think it was for sex or looking for an affair. Many women give me the looks and i just smile back, it makes me feel good but for sure i wont ask them to have a drink, and thats where my wife realized her mistake. Even if it was a good friend coworker of years, it still was bad and she apologies many times for this


I think what she is not telling you, and the reason she didn't tell you the truth when you saw her was that she liked the attention very much and was protecting her private space with OM. Maybe it was just an urge not to give it away, not really thought about how it would end, but I think if you didn't intervene with such determination she would have ended up having an affair.
I think she knows this and that's why she's keeping some of the truth to herself. That's my read of this.


----------



## adriana

Francesco said:


> ouch!
> according to you i have a good actress at home? i am not being sarcastic nor mad or whatever, just wondering...
> my friend already told me i did wrong, thats why he said i cant do his type of job.




Francesco, I have a meeting in 10 minutes so I can't post now but can you answer me one question? Just one question....

If this is all so innocent than why did your wife go through all that trouble of deceiving you by concealing the truth for months when telling the truth was so easy and it would make all parties involved happy? After all, she had so many chances to do it.

Her story simply doesn't make much sense. She knew you were suspecting her of cheating with OM, you can't argue with this, but instaed of putting all speculation on your part to rest by telling you the truth she kept on deceiving you for months? This isn't a behaviour of a wife with a clean conscience.


----------



## Q tip

italianjob said:


> I think what she is not telling you, and the reason she didn't tell you the truth when you saw her was that she liked the attention very much and was protecting her private space with OM. Maybe it was just an urge not to give it away, not really thought about how it would end, but I think if you didn't intervene with such determination she would have ended up having an affair.
> 
> I think she knows this and that's why she's keeping some of the truth to herself. That's my read of this.



Time to list all these points made by TAM folks and have a deeper serious conversation with her. Again do not disclose sources and methods. 

I think you two are OK, but she must know you want total recall.

How many total private lunches with OM and any other men. Not group lunches. 

Her history with OM prior to November. ...


----------



## z_man

Francesco said:


> *She came clean telling me that twice she had gone with OM at a local celeriac restaurant with om's car.
> *
> Well.... i can see that her responses dont seem fully convincing, but from how i know her and how she talks to me, i believe her.


These are the two times you saw her? Which makes her "coming clean" worthless.


----------



## Q tip

z_man said:


> These are the two times you saw her? Which makes her "coming clean" worthless.



Those are what he thinks you know that she admits to. Ask for all time not just when you knew. Her level of comfort with him says something 


Minor but your right to know the total truth.


----------



## SoulStorm

Anyone think that the OM and his wife could be swingers or into threesomes? That the trips to the office could be where they met and covered by those receipts/prescriptions in case suspicions arose. Remember OMW did this on her "free time"

Just my opinion in case she is not telling the truth.


----------



## Q tip

You see, F. All these signs from your W are what are called red flags. That's the intention of the folks here. They see through excuses and interpret them this way 

They don't mean she is guilty. But is good to follow up. Like her lack of desire can be loyalty to OM and their relationship. 

Some think ONS some ongoing. That's why the question after question. 


But only you need to know. Sometimes text in internet cannot get the whole meaning across. And language differences can be there too.


----------



## naiveonedave

z_man said:


> These are the two times you saw her? Which makes her "coming clean" worthless.


She only has admitted to stuff that F already knows about. That is dangerous. If you think about it, what are the odds that you catch her the only 2 times she does this? 100 to 1 or less? So they may have had 10s of such lunches, etc.

I don't want to be pessimistic, but she really didn't come clean.


----------



## italianjob

SoulStorm said:


> Anyone think that the OM and his wife could be swingers or into threesomes? That the trips to the office could be where they met and covered by those receipts/prescriptions in case suspicions arose. Remember OMW did this on her "free time"
> 
> Just my opinion in case she is not telling the truth.


That's one doubt that crossed my mind more than once. My belief that Francesco caught this before it went PA is based on OMW not being accomplice.


----------



## Tobyboy

italianjob said:


> That's one doubt that crossed my mind more than once. My belief that Francesco caught this before it went PA is based on OMW not being accomplice.


Funny how it appeared that Francesco was painted as the "crazy, controlling, paranoid husband" to the OMs wife!!! Wonder who put those thoughts in her head? 

As I've been saying for a while.....Francesco's wife is the pursuer of this obsession/fantasy.


----------



## bandit.45

Francesco said:


> mi stò pisciando dalle risate!! Complimenti per il tuo italiano!
> ...


Grazie mille! 

And I agree with Italianjob...why would it take four visits to the doctor to be diagnosed with menopause? An initial, blood work/hormone check, then a followup? Two, maybe three visits at most. 

And why would menopause be so embarrasing to your wife as to make her unable to tell you about it? Why would she confide in another man? That right there tells you she is emotionally invested with this stronzo.


----------



## drifting on

Francesco

What was your wife's response to the bench incident? How did she explain to you that was innocent? Would she be ok with that if the roles were reversed? Why did she not defend you to the quack doctor? Why did she lie?


----------



## Yeswecan

italianjob said:


> I think what she is not telling you, and the reason she didn't tell you the truth when you saw her was that she liked the attention very much and was protecting her private space with OM. Maybe it was just an urge not to give it away, not really thought about how it would end, but I think if you didn't intervene with such determination she would have ended up having an affair.
> I think she knows this and that's why she's keeping some of the truth to herself. That's my read of this.


I would concur with much of this post. I personally do not believe a PA has happened. But there is/was certainly one in the making. I believe mostly pursued by OM. However, your W was beginning to reciprocate. 

I would like to add, there is no doubt that your W went white faced after exiting the OM car when returning from lunch as you stood there looking on. It was totally unexpected for you to be there. It is totally unexpected for you to see your W exiting OM car. In all reality, your W should have stated that she went to lunch with OM at whatever fast food place. The very first time she should have said she went. Spouses do communicate their workday activity. Why she chooses not to say anything I can not answer. But, I suspect she was enjoying the individual attention. 

Now, we can sit here and beat the horse until it is not moving or we can accept that all you have heard from all involved is true and you are satisfied with the responses from your W, OM and OMW. 

The marriage dynamics is complicated but your actions towards your W can make it very uncomplicated. I think your W recognizes the marriage dynamics is complicated. I think she also recognizes that Francesco is not to be messed with.


----------



## Nucking Futs

My take is that Francesco has not gotten the truth, but has displayed enough testicular fortitude :smthumbup: that he has probably put an end to whatever was going on.

However I agree with those saying to keep an eye on the phone records and logs if he can get them. I would also suggest that Francesco's wife needs to seek a transfer to another department where she will have no excuse for contact with POSOM.


----------



## Q tip

she was white faced getting out of the car when she saw Francesco BECAUSE she was having happy thoughts that Francescos presence interfered with and she came back to reality.

she'll never share those thoughts... but i dont think Francesco was in those thoughts. perhaps OM helped with these thoughts down a slippery slope a tiny bit at a time. Fransesco stopped it all. boom!

then OM shifted into innocent guy mode. waiting for his next chance at another woman. Francescos wife totally unaware.


----------



## turnera

bandit.45 said:


> And why would menopause be so embarrasing to your wife as to make her unable to tell you about it? Why would she confide in another man? That right there tells you she is emotionally invested with this stronzo.


To play devil's advocate, I know women who are so invested in their femininity that coming to that age where it's not 'functioning' perfectly could very well be severely traumatic, shameful, and terrifying. Most women I know are not, but there are some. And we don't know their relationship all that well. He never did answer all my questions about how they get along together, whether she feels under pressure by him to keep 'providing' that femininity, whether she has legitimate reason to fear him throwing her away, whether she doesn't feel safe confiding in him. We've all seen it happen that way. Just because he's coming here, painting himself as the aggrieved, sorrowful wonderful husband, doesn't mean that's really the way it is. And we haven't heard her side.


----------



## Stillasamountain

Francesco said:


> he wasn't informed of no results, he just saw my wife upset and tried to make her stay calm.


Yes, I frequently comfort my female co-workers by cuddling up and stroking their faces. 

I still can't get over the huge odds of Frank showing up randomly the first two times and both times she was getting out of his car. And her white faced spin doctoring when she could have just fessed up. 

Because it was all just an innocent case of 6 trips (for free) to the OM's weird, snarky M.D. wife for a simple menopause diagnosis. Plus, you know, a few lunches here and there. But no more frequently than he can already prove!

Gah. I'm glad Francesco feels better. Wish I did about the whole mess.


----------



## G.J.

After thinking on this for a while now and talking with my wife - Its not right Francesco as she hasn't behaved in a way that most husbands would expect their wife's to behave and being Italian she would be more aware of how she is perceived by others more then most
It does smell I'm afraid

Please keep checking up on her from time to time, dinner time, phone logs, football night etc, I'm only too glad I don't have to live with that doubt

If only you could get some back ground history about this guy or talk to a co worker.....................

ADD
The only other way she would behave this way is Turnera's thoughts on what could be the problem


----------



## oneMOreguy

turnera said:


> To play devil's advocate, I know women who are so invested in their femininity that coming to that age where it's not 'functioning' perfectly could very well be severely traumatic, shameful, and terrifying. Most women I know are not, but there are some. And we don't know their relationship all that well. He never did answer all my questions about how they get along together, whether she feels under pressure by him to keep 'providing' that femininity, whether she has legitimate reason to fear him throwing her away, whether she doesn't feel safe confiding in him. We've all seen it happen that way. Just because he's coming here, painting himself as the aggrieved, sorrowful wonderful husband, doesn't mean that's really the way it is. And we haven't heard her side.


...some guys just get off on being the knight in shining armor to the damsel in distress. And they look hard for those opportunities and cultivate the situation. And Francesco's wife probably enjoyed the attention, and slowly but surely got sucked into this guy's attention, with strong encouragement from him of course. I think Francesco did a great job of showing his wife who the knight in shining armor needs to be in their marriage.


----------



## Voltaire2013

The one question that hangs like the sword of Damocles in my head is why she needed a new doctor? Did her old Dr. retire? Is the OMW a specialist? I haven't seen that answered with all the other plausible denials.


Cheers,
V(13)


oneMOreguy said:


> ...some guys just get off on being the knight in shining armor to the damsel in distress. And they look hard for those opportunities and cultivate the situation. And Francesco's wife probably enjoyed the attention, and slowly but surely got sucked into this guy's attention, with strong encouragement from him of course. I think Francesco did a great job of showing his wife who the knight in shining armor needs to be in their marriage.


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## Chaparral

I don't have any thing to add but just do not forget she kept secrets, acted guilty and told bare faced lies. Your friend thought they acted very friendly yet you were never told of this relationship. Why? 

Everyone's actions have been weird to me, an American.

How close a friend kisses a married woman on both cheeks? A friend you don't even know about? Hand holding about a disease/condition he knows nothing about? Caressing her cheek? Yet other times they're seen having pleasant lunches together?

They go to lunch together twice by themselves in his car? Twice to medical appointments alone in his car. Walks together to lunch other times. And you are never told about this friendship. As a matter of fact lies were told about it. The reasons for the lies seem inadequate. As in to hide something much worse.

Its also telling that it didn't occur to your wife that people saw them together, tell you about it and assume from what they saw that something was going on between them. In spite of the fact you made this up, it didn't surprise her other people were supposedly telling stories to you.

So far she has proven she doesn't want to split up but that she wonders if you might. Is that a guilty conscience?

Unfortunately, everything that's happened can be innocent or infidelity. You're going to have to keep digging. Taking ones lunch doesn't mean they are eating it or who they may be eating with.

I hope things are going the right way but its shocking how many posters have found so much less that pointed to a bad outcome.


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## Q tip

why she never mentioned OM in all the months they lunched, shared and drove to doctors. wish i knew the conversations they shared. when exactly did she meet him the first time. how many group lunches before he spotted her for individual attention. how many lunches did they have in total since they first met.

never mentioned OM ever; and now admits only to what he knows. it is an old story told by many...

hope F friend finds out more about this POS.


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## italianjob

turnera said:


> To play devil's advocate, I know women who are so invested in their femininity that coming to that age where it's not 'functioning' perfectly could very well be severely traumatic, shameful, and terrifying. Most women I know are not, but there are some. And we don't know their relationship all that well. He never did answer all my questions about how they get along together, whether she feels under pressure by him to keep 'providing' that femininity, whether she has legitimate reason to fear him throwing her away, whether she doesn't feel safe confiding in him. We've all seen it happen that way. Just because he's coming here, painting himself as the aggrieved, sorrowful wonderful husband, doesn't mean that's really the way it is. And we haven't heard her side.


I think in his early posts Francesco said the relationship was very good and he wouldn't believe his wife could be cheating if he didn't saw her coming out of OMs car twice, but I may not be remembering correctly, and you're right, he never answered to your direct questions about it.

Anyway there is something not working in her behavior:
- She gets caught twice coming out of another man's car. This is Italy, more, this is Sicily. Italians are known to be jealous, but where I live, if you want to say that someone is VERY jealous you say he is "jealous like a Sicilian".
I don't buy for one second that she didn't think he might suspect she was cheating, she knew he was suspecting the very moment she saw him.

- I absolutely understand her possible embarassment about her menopause problems, I would tie it more to the fact that she's having them at an early age, but in the moment she gets caught
she has a choice between hiding something out of embarassment or risk a serious marital crisis. Not only, but she's already been diagnosed at this point, so there is no real reason to keep it hidden, she'll have to tell sooner or later.
But she choose to lie and risk the consequences of her husband thinking she was cheating.

IDK, this doesn't make sense to me...


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## Francesco

turnera said:


> To play devil's advocate, I know women who are so invested in their femininity that coming to that age where it's not 'functioning' perfectly could very well be severely traumatic, shameful, and terrifying. Most women I know are not, but there are some. And we don't know their relationship all that well. He never did answer all my questions about how they get along together, whether she feels under pressure by him to keep 'providing' that femininity, whether she has legitimate reason to fear him throwing her away, whether she doesn't feel safe confiding in him. We've all seen it happen that way. Just because he's coming here, painting himself as the aggrieved, sorrowful wonderful husband, doesn't mean that's really the way it is. And we haven't heard her side.


I have very little time today and tomorrow, but i am reading every post, some do get me thinking, others don't. 
i did answer this question time ago, what i can say now is that FOR ME our marriage has been great. I met her when she was 18 and before me she had not even kissed another man in her life, i am (for many might not be true) her first and only in every way.
I pulled her out of her shell and gave her the confidence to become a woman in career in society, since her only world was only church, home and house holding. Never been jealous of her and i gave her all the trust a normal husband doe's not give. I am no mister wonderful, but i am not certainly mr freak-out or controlling nut case.
we got engaged after 5 years of dating (she was 23 i was 27) and 1 year after we got married. We had no debts, but with only 2k of euro in bank! All we have was made on our own, no help from nether of our parents. Then when she was 25 came our first D. This was with the following 4 years the best period of our lives. Together we not only made it on our own growing the baby and taking care of the house, but also found the way to take care of our parents that started to have health problems, and also many friends that were having marital problems (saving literally there marriage). We had a hard time when D was 5 years old because the 2° baby that we were trying to have just didn't arrive. But when we were about to give up, a couple of years after she was pregnant of S. This was a new fuel injection for both of us. She was 32 and i was 36 when this happened.
Now that we are together almost 18 years (agost), this is the first case of suspicious behavior ever.
I don't know what in particular you Turnera are asking me....
She was never controlled by me, i never laid a hand on her, we barely fought, kids didn't stress us and work was/is always ok......

anyway reading some responses do get to me, and i think that now that many things are better, i might re-make some questions. Also because it's been around 1 week that we have not talked about it anymore.

One last thing.... i saw her twice come out of the om cars, she added that there were 2 other times. She also said that before seeing OMW (last year) they had lunch many other times but nearby and most of the times with other co-workers. It's not something that escalated only recently.....
be back monday, thanks again to everyone


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## Stillasamountain

italianjob said:


> But she choose to lie and risk the consequences of her husband thinking she was cheating.
> 
> IDK, this doesn't make sense to me...


That's one of the more obvious inconsistencies. But really, the whole sequence of events is bizarre.

Francesco, I don't think any amount of rehashing with her is going to help at this point. She gave you a story full of holes. It either must be the truth or she thinks you're an idiot.

As others have pointed out, continued light reconnaissance is probably the smart move now.


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## bandit.45

Lovers in Rome will park a car on a quiet street, cover all the windows with newspapers and such and then go at it in the car. I've been told it's not uncommon to walk by a blanked out Fiat on the street, rocking back and forth during afternoon siesta. Maybe that's a myth. Fact is humans can get each other off anytime, anywhere, and it can take no more than five minutes.

Her whole story stinks. I'm not buying it was only an EA. I guess I'm disappointed more than anything else that Francesco seems so gullible. 

But...enough said I guess.


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## convert

Francesco said:


> I have very little time today and tomorrow, but i am reading every post, some do get me thinking, others don't.
> i did answer this question time ago, what i can say now is that FOR ME our marriage has been great. I met her when she was 18 and before me she had not even kissed another man in her life, i am (for many might not be true) her first and only in every way.
> I pulled her out of her shell and gave her the confidence to become a woman in career in society, since her only world was only church, home and house holding. Never been jealous of her and i gave her all the trust a normal husband doe's not give. I am no mister wonderful, but i am not certainly mr freak-out or controlling nut case.
> we got engaged after 5 years of dating (she was 23 i was 27) and 1 year after we got married. We had no debts, but with only 2k of euro in bank! All we have was made on our own, no help from nether of our parents. Then when she was 25 came our first D. This was with the following 4 years the best period of our lives. Together we not only made it on our own growing the baby and taking care of the house, but also found the way to take care of our parents that started to have health problems, and also many friends that were having marital problems (saving literally there marriage). We had a hard time when D was 5 years old because the 2° baby that we were trying to have just didn't arrive. But when we were about to give up, a couple of years after she was pregnant of S. This was a new fuel injection for both of us. She was 32 and i was 36 when this happened.
> Now that we are together almost 18 years (agost), this is the first case of suspicious behavior ever.
> I don't know what in particular you Turnera are asking me....
> She was never controlled by me, i never laid a hand on her, we barely fought, kids didn't stress us and work was/is always ok......
> 
> anyway reading some responses do get to me, and i think that now that many things are better, i might re-make some questions. *Also because it's been around 1 week that we have not talked about it anymore.*
> 
> One last thing.... i saw her twice come out of the om cars, she added that there were 2 other times. She also said that before seeing OMW (last year) they had lunch many other times but nearby and most of the times with other co-workers. It's not something that escalated only recently.....
> be back monday, thanks again to everyone


It is ok to talk about it in a calm manner and not obsessive way.
Boundaries should be discussed from time to time.
*not bringing it up or not talking about it is a lot like rug sweeping.*


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## convert

I hesitate to mention this, but you being her one and only because she was a virgin some say she may be wondering what it would be like to be with someone else.
some would even say a red flag here or at least an orange flag. At least with the other things going on.

I do not mean to pile on the doubts because I do believe you caught it early.


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## convert

I would try and take your wife to lunch every so often in full view of OM.
have you full uniform on (loaded gun and all) it is good reinforcement for all


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## turnera

Francesco said:


> what i can say now is that FOR ME our marriage has been great.


And of course you know that, by our nature, men are almost always clueless if the women are unhappy. Look up "walkaway wives" to understand. Women easily meet most of men's needs - sex, housekeeping, cooking, childraising, companionship. But men very often FAIL to meet women's top needs - conversation, safety, being treated as equals, respect - and don't even realize it. 

That's when women start to slowly become dissatisfied.

And what I was trying to get at is, do you have a temper? Has she told you things and then been ridiculed for them (so she learned to shut up and stop telling you her 'truths' out of fear of being dismissed, laughed at, or hurt)? Has she tried to express herself only to have you interrupt her and tell her what YOU think? These are the kinds of things I was fishing for. Because if there IS any of that in you, she probably stopped telling you the truth a long time ago. 




Francesco said:


> I met her when she was 18 and before me she had not even kissed another man in her life, i am (for many might not be true) her first and only in every way. I pulled her out of her shell and gave her the confidence to become a woman in career in society, since her only world was only church, home and house holding. we got engaged after 5 years of dating (she was 23 i was 27) and 1 year after we got married. Then when she was 25 came our first D. ... she was pregnant of S. This was a new fuel injection for both of us. She was 32 and i was 36 when this happened.


And this is the second case in which women become dissatisfied - they move straight from one man - their father - to their husband and they literally 'grow up' with their husband. He is her security, he allows her to 'grow up' in safety and learn who she is, what she wants to become. It's typically around the ages of 35-40 that women often start wondering why they needed that security, they now understand themselves, feel secure in their own abilities, they no longer 'need' a man to protect them. And at the same time, the man has become 'nice' - no longer thrilling, exciting, daring. He changes diapers, cleans up vomit...he's just part of the fixtures.

So, between her 'coming of age' and their lives becoming settled, when a man, usually ANY man but especially a man who has such an interesting career, comes around and starts paying attention to her, she's gonna notice. And start wondering what she COULD have had.

Even if she has no intention of ever leaving you OR of cheating, that draw away from the stability and safety of the husband who helped her grow up to a man who dares to flirt with her...it's fairly hard to resist. And especially considering that she never lived a single life, never got to meet the 'players' before when she was dating in her college years (because she was already attached to you), well, I can see how she could easily have fallen for him and the attention. 

That said, it sounds like she may have learned her lesson and come running back. Time will tell. I think the only thin I'd do at this point is insist that you be given access to her medical records so that you can see the explanations given for the doctor's visits.


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## Dyokemm

"As others have pointed out, continued light reconnaissance is probably the smart move now."

Unfortunately, I think this will be entirely useless.

Whatever might have happened will remain a thing of the past.

Since Francesco's suspicions are peaked at 11 on a scale of 1 to 10, and the OM and (potentially) WW have been directly and forcefully confronted already, there is no way either of them would continue with anything at this point.

From here on, they are both going to appear to be paragons of innocence, regardless of what was going on before Francesco realized that something was up.


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## Chaparral

So,they went to lunch many times with others and alone. And never mentioned it to her husband.

Seems like that definitely is pushing it to at least an EA, no?


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## drifting on

Francesco

The following is my opinion of what happened, I apologize as this story has triggered me from your first post. I have empathy for you as I know exactly what you are going through. Some of my comments are sarcastic but not malicious. I post this so you can see where I feel or know where your wife is lying. As I said I've gone through this and it took myself time before I saw how my WW had lied. Now that the rose colored glasses are off I have a much different view. I never thought my wife to be capable of such deception and destruction, but she is. I have offered my wife reconciliation, I know you say you couldn't do reconciliation. Everybody is different and at the moment I would not have been able to offer your wife reconciliation. My explanations are below and again this is my opinion based upon your posts. 

Before I post what I see you have several things to sort out regardless of what you want to do. Your wife was the object of the affection of another man, she liked it, she hid this from you. You have to decide based upon her actions and not words if she is deserving to stay with you. Are you able to accept her behavior as harsh as it was? Are you willing to risk this has the potential to happen again? No relationship comes with a guarantee, even if you divorce and date someone else it could happen again. 

Here is how I view what happened based on your posts. This is my opinion, take it for what it's worth.



First post
First time surprising her at work, white faced. You talked then left. 
Second time, wife and OM return ten minutes late. You surprise them and they look embarrassed. "They tried to play it cool saying that they had gone on lunch like USUALLY". 
Your wife said TWICE. Usually would mean more than a couple times a week. My WW said her and her OM had lunch two to three times a week. Would you like to guess my WW wording, we usually have lunch together if we aren't too busy. See why I hate lunch? 

On page two you post she laughed and knew you were going to ask. You also say, " if it wasn't for this co- worker that gets to my sixth sense I would not be so paranoid". Gut doesn't lie Francesco. Then you say, "that they are working on some papers that need to be done very soon, so that's why they have lunch together". Think back to this, it sounds so casual and so much more than two times. I would say from experience, more then three times a week. Also notice how she sees nothing wrong here, that is comfort, and that is very bad. Your wife lied casually, about being with a male for lunch, even though they work together eight hours a day. Minimum three times a week, even after you showed up twice and they were together. She should be employee of the year to work through lunch getting HIS papers together.

Your next post, "why not tell me about it?" She had a minimum three times to confess, did she? I hope you do know why Francesco, she can't tell you she's having an affair, the same post you say she knows you won't forgive. On page four you say that you think she knows going to lunch alone with a male is wrong. You tell CONANHUB "I think she knew it immediately and that was also the reason she turned white". I don't think she knew. 

Page six you post your friends account of lunch. "He said that where very confident...not like a usual coworkers usually behaves". Hmmm, she is lying and gaslighting you already. Then the cheek to cheek kisses. Page seven you say, " must say that this last month she seems more horny"... Hmmm, menopause and she has no desire for sex. I would say not true. Page nine you say, "she was the one who gave me some boundaries". I'd like to know her boundaries, certainly not lying and being alone with a male coworker for lunch. 

Page ten, your friend followed, you said "I just finished talking with my friend...not good." Now remember he didn't call he came to you in person. He caresses her cheek, holds her hand, CONFIDENT body language. She didn't mind at ALL. Your friend said there were many signs of confidence between them. This is where they ate at the bench, no doctors office. Pictures given to you and you were pissed. My WW was confident also, and she didn't even receive the news she had menopause. Your wife said that is why he comforted her. Nowhere in that post does it say she was upset, it did say HE was upset. I wonder why Francesco. 

Every time you have checked on her at lunch she is with OM. You are being gaslighted to new heights even for TAM. There is no way they spend that much time together and this not be physical. You stated in a different post your wife is forty (looks ten years younger) and like Sharon Stone. Your wife is correct, he's just a good friend, Francesco, I'm only at page twelve!!!

Page thirteen, "Quiting would devastate her, but for sure she can be transferred." This would be a must, she should be having no contact as she has lied about her relationship with him. They are far closer then she will ever say. She has had multiple opportunities to tell you the truth. Menopause is normally not life or death, but she isn't wanting you to know, that's for damn sure. 

Page fourteen, you say, "I think that something physical has happened." Based upon what you have seen you thought it was physical. I did the same, I told my therapist I KNEW it was physical. I don't think men want to ever imagine that our wives are having an affair, but most men don't go to physical unless they think that it is. At this point your gut is saying physical, and with very good reason just based on what your friend stated. 

Page fifteen, you say, "if they got physical, and if she has feelings for him good for her cause she can have him, but if she hasn't have feeling's then then she's really stupid for trowing away our marriage." You have now realized she is capable but in shock to see that she would cheat. Add the lies and that each time you or a friend watch her they have lunch together. Confident body language, gentle touches in public, and lies. I don't see your wife having any boundaries, that's dangerous.

Page twenty three, you say, "After a while we where cuddling, i couldn't not ask a question, it was hard not to. So i asked if she is happy with our marriage, and if there would be something that she could change what it would be.. She hugged me tighter and smiled, answers that it couldn't be better! Now here is where she caught me off guard... she also said "i just wish that YOU will always be there for me like now!" Why wouldn't i? cause at 40 i'm starting to have health problems to early. WHAT? " Guilty conscious on her part? She's telling lies, having lunch with another male, replacing you. She feels very guilty, but not enough to calm you, same as my WW. Then you say, "Anyway i told her how much she meant to me and nothing in the world will ever change that... and then to just make a joke to laugh said "of course my only issue would be if you cheated" "Never crossed my mind" was the answer". It hasn't? Then why the lies, multiple lunches, touching, not telling you? This is your response to the first time you caught her, "my reaction was like WTF, hers was oh shxxxt!
I tried not to show it.
She for sure knows that being alone with any OM not in a public place would get to me". Oh shxxxt! She knows for sure being alone in private would get to you. She did it anyway. Risking everything for nothing, makes no sense, it was physical. She won't risk everything for friendship. 

Page twenty five, you say, "I did!! i asked her why she thinks that i might not be there in the future, and she joked about her health small problems, and that since up to now i have no problems, that i would find a new woman to replace her. it was all said with a smile and not serious, but anyway it got me thinking." Another chance to end the lies, talk to you, nope. Then you say, "Well... since she has this problem with gluten free food, she thinks that it causes privations for the rest of us, also she starts thinking that she's starting to have small health issues that prevent her from doing things together like before.
cant really ex plane it better, but little problems seem get to her." I agree, little problems big reaction, big problems no reaction. Not good.

Page twenty six, you say, "with my friend we agreed to go with our plan only when and if she gets busted red handed.... in the meanwhile i just need to keep my guard up.
I agree with who said that i need to date more and work less...
If she is having some sort of an affair with this OM, i would be more shocked as the way she manages ti hide it and keep up a family good life then the cheating in it self!" She is hiding it, she is lying, she is capable. 

Page thirty two, you say, "honestly no.... but then again when you have no reasons to believe so you are kind of blind. right? The question was if you caught her in any lie. You have now and it's huge. 

Page forty six, you say, " he then waited outside and after a little bit more then a half hour they came back down, my wife had papers and she was watching them with OM, then he gave her a hug and they went back to work." Papers they were both looking at. She lied to say he doesn't know. They hugged, not as goodbye, they had to drive back to work together. Then you say, "In a few words OM was helping my wife.... My wife was looking for a gynecologist because she wanted to understand the problems that she was having. OM told her about his wife and she excepted first to meet her and then to be her patient." What a nice guy don't you think. Then you say, "She had symptoms of menopause and never told me about it, she said that she was afraid that i would get upset and change. She told me that OM was giving her rides to his wife studio on hours that she was free, that OM knowing the problem was only being gentile. 
I found about this after i told her that i found it strange that she would always be with him on car rides during lunch. She cried at the thought that i suspected her having an affair, and apologized for not telling me what really was going on." All that you have said prior to this is no fights, so why not tell you? OM was giving rides and being gentile, I'm sure his intentions are pure. You had to pull the information from her, she admitted what you knew. Did she come clean about the bench here? No, she was protecting OM and her affair. She should have told you about every lunch but didn't. This is how I know it's physical, my WW did the exact same.

Page forty seven, you say, "OM knew what was going on only when he saw my wife upset and sad after one of the latest visits (my wife is only 40 so she was plenty upset when she found out that she really has this problem). According to her, she told him in that moment of weakness, and he suggested to talk to me and told her to not worry....
If he in the meanwhile was playing a duoble game i don't know... but doing so while with OMW? SHE TOLD HOM IN A MOMENT OF WEAKNESS!!! And she continues to lie about this. She could have come clean and still won't Francesco. She is gaslighting you and protecting OM! It was difficult for me also but your wife isn't being straight. 

Page forty eight, you say, "I couldn't ask her that, because otherwise she would've known that i had her followed. I am guessing that OM knew by then the problem and was giving her courage to not worry..." She already told you on page forty seven.

Page forty nine, you say, Originally Posted by turnera:
Just ask your wife for all the receipts. She already knows you're doubting her. Let her prove it to you.

"she showed them on her own. she showed me the test results, the requites of other test's and also that she needs to go on the pill written by omw." Why didn't she tell you then that the doctor isn't charging her? Probably because she wouldn't be able to explain how damning that looks.

Page fifty, you say, "no, i still have doubts but many things she said have sense." If you look closely at what makes sense it won't. Your doubts will find the truth. 

Page sixty one, you say, "According to her she was not sure and wanted to be certain, the OM probably knew what was going on in December, not before. The Gyno is OMW's. 
Also she was willing to tell me sunday night, but my dad had that problem and she waited." She already admitted OM knew. Is she lying again? Is she trying to dig her rabbit hole deeper? Then you say, "yes i know, ther are some parts thAT i dont like, but OM has known her problem only recently, not from october. I probably write in a bad way, cause it seems that i keep on answering the same questions." Again you knew that OM knew.

Page seventy one, you say, "no, thanking OMW will ensure me; 1) that OMW fully knows how close they have been
2) TELLS MY WIFE THAT I MIGHT KNOW MORE then what she thinks
3) makes them both understand (OMW and my W) that now I am in charge and that OMW will need to share with me further communications. Also.... with me saying that will for sure make my W. understand my double sense, it's an Italian way to make them have the message." Your wife apologized to the doctor who disrespected you and gave you attitude, she didn't even defend you. She has no idea how this has affected you. She also knows she can never tell you it was a physical affair. 

Page seventy five, you say, "Anyway we arrive at OMW office and i felt as that lady was x-raying me! First thing she said was: what's the pleasure of this visit? with a shxxxty face. I was pxssed already on my own and i simply responded: Only to finally meet the doctor that is taking care of my wife, and also to know what i can do to help, is this a problem for you? So i guess we both got bxxtchy!" So doctors normally greet the spouse with an attitude. I wonder why? Then say, "OMW said that since my wife and her had already talked about everything, she just didn't understand why we needed to meet also. Because i LOVE my wife and I wanted to understand. I grabbed the receipts and put them on the table and said: for example all these visits made in the past months, and i had known only recently the reason why. She first looked and then confirmed all the visits and in a unpleasant way added that it was up to my wife to let me know things and not her." She verified free appointments?! Why free? I would have told the doctor your husband knows. What do you make of that? Then say, "I stayed calm.... and said yes! you are right! and i guess that i must thank your husband for this also. She looked at me as if i was crazy... my wife did also! i said if it wasn't for him that accompanied my wife AT ALMOST EVERY SINGLE VISIT, she wouldn't have knowed about her problems. And yes.... i agree that this was something that my wife needed to share with only me instead with your husband. That put a question mark on her forehead!
In that moment i was like possessed and in rage, and i went on asking if she was ok allowing her husband being so kind with other women? Needless to say she said that now she understands the reason why my wife doesn't talk with me about certain things, and that i am maybe an insecure person. I just smiled and while i was getting up said to her: or maybe i now know why your husband seeks to help other women." I would have said even if she can't talk to me your husband should not know!! Then say, "Have a nice day and i left.... i heard my wife apologize to her and then she came out following me, and asked what was all that about.
I told her that i knew everything... that she and OM had crossed the boundary and that i was really pxssed! She was in complete shock.
Then began to explane that OM was only a good friend and was helping, he doesn't know what her problems are, she never told him, he just thought that she was worried for something more serious. I said is that why he huges and kisses you on a public bench where everybody can see? or maybe thats the reason why they are often on there own during lunch breaks?
She kept on saying that nothing was out of order, that all was just innocent and that she has no feelings nor desire for OM... actually she seemed almost flattered by my jealousy." Your wife apologizing is a slap in the face. If OM didn't know then why did she tell you she told him in a moment of weakness? Why did he touch her face and hold her hand? She should have reacted harshly to OM and the doctor but instead protected them both. She's protecting her lover that replaced you. She even asked what was that all about, clearly to only admit what you know. Then you say, "She started to cry and plead, and i just said : did i ever disrespect you? well now i will and i hung up, shoot down my cell and dumped myself on the coach." Too little too late. Even I would question if you could reconcile. 

Page seventy eight, you say, "- OM never attempted to get to her, he thought that my wife was worried about cancer, and till this day W. never told him it was about menopause." I think this is bulls--t. OM knew. Another lie on her part. You think the quack doctor kept it to herself too?! Not after your visit she didn't. Then you say, "- That she did wrong not telling me, but her intentions where not to hurt me, she just needed to understand. She confessed that lately she had very less desire for sex, and was afraid. Thats why she asked if i will always love her that night time ago." More bull, all her lies, hard work to keep it secret. And she did all this not to worry you?! No, she did all that to hide her affair. None of her actions support someone who is innocent. Then you say, " That the bench episode was when she got the certain response of menopause, and since OM saw her upset and not wanting to be invading her privacy he was only comforting me to not worry and all can be resolved. That his wife is a great doctor and that she will take care of her. And to tell me whatever was going on. This is the best gaslighting I've seen yet! Really to tell you!! Then you say, "- That the white face was only because she was caught off guard seeing me and knew that i might get the wrong impression, nothing else.
In a few words she was very sincere, and also apologizing on every episode. She admitted that she might have crossed the boundary but honestly didn't think much bad about it, after all we had a stable and fulfilling healthy marriage..." White faced as she was guilty. If she knew it was inapropriate she would have come clean!! But no, protect the affair at all costs. Then you say, "So i just looked at her... i said what did she think about OMW? She felt indebted towards her. She had helped out of her working hours, She had not taken even one euro, proved to be a good doctor.... but was in shock with what happened that day and was in total blackout. She said that she will find another doctor. And she did.
As for OM she swore to God to not go N.C unless for work issues. 
This will be clarified on my next update.... cause me and om did have a confrontation a couple of days after." No apology for not defending you with the doctor, feels in debited to the doctor!! Blackout?! You should give her an academy award!! If she feels in debited why find a new doctor? Clearly she has no feelings towards you. She kept all of this from you and yes, shared it with OM!!!! She wasn't in shock she was scared she had been found out with her affair. Then you say, "According to her she didn't lie upon nothing.... she just omitted the real reason why OM was there. She did not want to tell me straight out "i think i am starting to have a menopause" ... for her it was something to be sure of before telling me. 
Also they know each other for over i don't know how many years... but she did admit that it was looking bad from the outside and after my blowout she realized that for me it was from the inside also and apologized.
in a few words she didn't think bad of it.... but 2 day after i will prove her that it was! i will explane better on my next update." Omitting the reason, and time with OM IS A LIE!!! Diagnosed or not she should have shared that info. Disrespect. Later admits it was looking bad?! She has no boundaries and did not care as she lied about her relationship with OM!!! Her affair almost got caught, you will never get that smoking gun unless she confesses. She won't until she has nothing left to lose. After all this she doesn't think too bad of it?! Wow.

Page eighty, you say," that i needed to have a talk with OM. She was a little puzzled but understood the reason. I told her that i wanted to do it that next morning (never know if she could aware him) before they start there work shift. I had to start my shift at 10:00, so i had the time. At first she was questioning me for the real reason not to do it in a more comfortable time, then she just looked at me and said ok... come with me tomorrow morning and do what you want but be polite. Sure i will...." She doesn't know why?! Wait for a comfortable time?! You do see she is protecting OM valiantly here. Very loyal she is to OM, bet you wish she defended you with the doctor as much as she is OM!! Politely, please tell me she did not say that. Then you say, "I just told him that now there are not any problems, but if in the future there will be, then he wont see it coming. He asked if i was threatening him, that he is a public investigator, i said no i'm just warning you, and that i am a public armed guard man that i can become a private axxhole for him." He asked if you were threatening him. He didn't say, don't threaten me. Big difference here. If he asks he has no respect for you. If he says don't threaten me he feels you will do something. So he thinks you are a laughing stock. He probably did laugh about this to your wife, but she will never tell you. 

Page eighty one, you say, "yes. she said that OM said that she has one hell (corna dure) of a husband. Then he made a joke about the next time she find a ride with a female coworker or a taxi, it was said just to calm the waters. My wife told him that she is the one to blame and handled the situation poorly." So it was a joke to OM already and her taking fault with OM is basically an apology. This isn't over. Then you say, "ouch according to you i have a good actress at home? i am not being sarcastic nor mad or whatever, just wondering...
my friend already told me i did wrong, thats why he said i cant do his type of job." We all see it but you Francesco!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

She says the om didnt know whatvwss going on.

Later they talk about it after they come out of his wifes office building. When confronted he says he thought she feared cancer. If he didnt know why wss he holding her handband touching her face before that?

Why would he recommend his wife a gyno for cancer?

Again why manynlunches together, faces turning white and never tell husband about close male friend?

I would suggest you tellmher to start over from the beginning and tell the whole story again. Several times. Police know liars get their lies mixed up. Ask for details.. If she is lying she will get her lies crossed.

Another inconsistency that indicates trouble,myou said she had been more horney lately. This hapoens a lot to people in affairs Or the opposite and cut their partner off. The weird thing though is she now says the menopause caused her to lose desire. Did she not notice is was more horney before she got confronted?

I truly hope that's it's not the case but for now you have to get this straightened out.


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## Tobyboy

I say Francesco wife is the pursuer. Made up the ailments knowing that OM's wife is a gyno. and would be willing to help her. Then playing the part of the long suffering wife, married to a detach, un-involved, insecure man.....winning sympathy from the OM and his wife. Living a double life!!! A love affair. Maybe not physical. I only say this because if it was physical, the OM would have "stolen" a kiss during one of the lunches together. 

.......or this whole thread........nevermind. 
.......isn't frank short for francesco? Man......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pryorrichard73

Francesco said:


> Hello to everyone..
> About 3 week's ago i saw my wife while she was getting out of a car that was from a coworker of hers. Didn't think much of it until i saw her face turn white when she saw me! Since i work a job that gives me little free time (except on weekends) she wasn't expecting my arrival where she works.
> After that episode i played dumb, pretending that i had no suspects. Gave her a hug and a kiss and after a while left without asking.
> So i decided to keep a close eye on her behavior just to see if i was overreacting about my thoughts ...
> Nothing seemed to be out of place... good sex, great family nights with kids, etc.... We dont go out much cause we enjoy staying together the 4 of us. Must say she is a great mom.
> Then last week I decided to repeat the surprise at her job during her lunch break, While i was waiting outside the building she came out with that same coworker... so i just stood and watched. She got in is car and left, and i followed them thinking to my self how nuts this is..
> I lost them cause of the heavy traffic, so i decide to go back at her work and wait for them there. They came back with 10 minutes of delay (the break is 1 hour), waited till she came out and popped up behind her with an HELLO LOVE! The embarrassment from them was clear.
> I presented myself wanting to know his name, and then asked
> what was going on. They tried to play it cool saying that they had gone on lunch like usually. So Without any proofs i had to play it dumb again also this time, and pretended that it was ok. Also to not seem like a freak.
> 
> A little back story:
> We are happily (or i thought so) for over 17 years, and we have 2 wonderful kids d14 and s7 both very smart and well educated.
> Never had serious problems in our marriage. I was her first and only (never even kissed before) and this is what starts to make me wonder.... We live in Italy.
> 
> Question: Do I have a reason to be paranoid? After all we are a great family unit, and she always tells me how much she loves me. Am i getting obsessed?


The first signs we always ignore. RED FLAGS are what GOD places in our lives so we can see the truth. The way the responded told you they are involved. I HATE TELLING YOU THIS BUT, they are involved in some way. 

How do I know, its happened to me and job relationships are easy to hide from spouses. Co Workers know but, not the spouse and most people stay out of your business, PERIOD. My current future ex had affairs on me and I did what you did, brushed it off. Woman are master cheaters, they study our actions. Men when we cheat were sloppy, as you said, her white face when seeing you was the truth. Her response wasnt,"hey baby how are you" tells me shes not happy to see you.

She knows your daily routine and trust me, her affair is about the rush, and lust. You can save the marriage if she goes to therapy. I dont think its LOVE, you have time to fix it. That said, it could be sex and not be sex but, they are involved. After my divorce comes, Im divorcing woman.

I dont dislike woman, I just dont understand them. Here you are, what woman say they want and you get cheated on? Im confused. It seems like men who dog woman out cant get rid of them and nice guys like you and the many men on this site get screwed. Its like most, not all but, most woman like chasing bad boys or men that wont act right. 

A woman told me before I lost my future ex wife that the best way to get her attention is to mess around on her, she said woman like a challenge and want a balance between doing what they ask and not doing so. I didnt get it!!! So for me, no more serious setling down because Im sure the next one will do the same. Hearing your story scares me because your the ultimate good guy, if a woman wont be loyal to you, none of us have a chance.


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## turnera

Tobyboy said:


> .......isn't frank short for francesco? Man......


Damn.


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## pryorrichard73

Being cheated on when in any relationship kills a part of the spirit that NEVER recovers even if you find a better mate. I have been cheated on many times and anyone who laughs keep in mind, their are the cheaters we catch and the ones we dont LOL. I just SADLY caught mine, LOL!!! 

Well, this is hard for Fran, he like me and others NEVER want this to be true because its always the other man or woman. The truth is men and woman cheat the same amount despite statistics. We I feel have something in us sexually we cant control. We then think via sex, were in LOVE cheating gives us a high that is not got from being with your wife or husband for years. The new sex partner provides an excitement and people are stupid(me included) we see with our eyes and emotions, not our minds.

Ask people why they cheat the 1st response is I DONT KNOW, the truth is its a lie/truth. They have a reason but, most havent identified it, LOL!!! When We get cheated on what really hurts? I feel its really the unknown, you feel like your with a person you NEVER knew at all. This woman or man you thought was your LIFE partner talked about private things with the other person, had sex and more you had no clue they were doing behind your back, in SHORT its the unknown that hurts.

We need to be kind to Fran most here are vets of cheating happening to them. We speak from a place of the past. I recall my lady before this one cheating, it hurt took at least 3 months to eat right. The recent one(3 weeks ago) went back further I found out and it hurts. Im not even mad at her.

I am at me. GOD warned me via his people and I ignored the warnings. This goes back to us helping Fran. Fran we are warning you, this is going to hurt but, your WIFE isnt who she use to be. If you want to SAVE it fine but, do so ONLY if you get couples therapy sir. YOU NEED IT.

She is gone from you. WOMAN arent like men, when another man catches their eye or mind, your done, thats what happened to me. I saw it in her eyes, all who cheated on me. They dont start with another man if happy Fran, they dont. My woman I give her this warned me saying,"we need therapy and then Im not feeling this" LOL.

Then years later her cheating continued until she left me. PERIOD. Woman are not like men we can sex and not care about the woman, some woman can to but, sex a woman gives if married or in a relationships of any type to another man means more to them. Now she feels a connection with the other man.

You have to start thinking about possible LIFE after her as well like I am doing. I already think divorce is coming. She will either tell me,"I want to try again or I want a divorce and I know divorce will be her choice, she NEVER goes back to men she lets go in her whole LIFE"!!! 

Start doing you. Dont let her see you down and sad. My future ex for the 1st time in 18 years didnt even call nor text me. I know its another man shes with. Do I need to be told? No!!!! Do I need to see it? No!!! No woman who you were with for over 5 years let alone 10 or more just cuts of talking to you even if its a matter of friends unless she has someone else. She willbreak up with you but, she will also speak to you like your still together not sex you but, talk, we sexed the Sunday just past and then she told me I could have sex with her Tuesday and Thursday and then Friday it was were no longer together because she knew today was her day to be with him and he was tired of her back and forth with me.


See my point? I accept it. You have to Fran, when a woman is gone she is. Now you can save yours unlike me. She and you can get therapy and fix you two and maybe save the marriage. Maybe its something your sex life or LIFE is boring and a bored woman will cheat. My ex called me boring to. I got in a routine and got stuck there so I take the blame for that and we NEVER went back to happy!!!! Sometimes its over before you realize it and she found her new man or he found his new woman!!!!

We shouldnt tell FRan get over it, its not easy for us all. Takes sone longer than others and to believe she is being untruthful, the woman Fran LOVEs is hard. Take it day by day FRan and trust that the truth is what happens, not what she wont say, what you saw was the truth. No woman does what she did unless she is slow mentally. She NEVER told you she goes to lunch with a man? First red flag and not happy when she saw you. Happened to me as well shocked my woman at a club and she had no clue id be there but, I was. She wasnt happy, LOL RED FLAG I IGNORED recall when you saw your woman each time she was happy, thats a happy woman anything else is a sign shes not happy .

Im hurt to Fran but, I realize the truth now it took me time, been a process going back to 2014 and seeing her act weird but, now it makes sense all i saw wasnt my imagination as she made it out to be. Now she just cuts me off. It was planned. She met someone feel for him and moved out. Your wife met someone Fran and likes him and you have to get therapy because it will come up everytime you turn around, shes a lier Fran. Get therapy and find out why she cheated and save it and if you can walk away buddy!!!


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## italianjob

Tobyboy said:


> .......or this whole thread........nevermind.
> .......isn't frank short for francesco? Man......


IDK if "this whole thread"... , guess after the one you refer to anything might be possible.

The one thing I'm sure of is that Francesco is an italian writing in english (he makes very common mistakes in choice of words and structure, sometimes I can "see" the tought in italian behind the sentence), so I don't think there is a connection at all...


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## Decorum

turnera said:


> And of course you know that, by our nature, men are almost always clueless if the women are unhappy. Look up "walkaway wives" to understand. Women easily meet most of men's needs - sex, housekeeping, cooking, childraising, companionship. But men very often FAIL to meet women's top needs - conversation, safety, being treated as equals, respect - and don't even realize it.
> 
> That's when women start to slowly become dissatisfied.
> 
> And what I was trying to get at is, do you have a temper? Has she told you things and then been ridiculed for them (so she learned to shut up and stop telling you her 'truths' out of fear of being dismissed, laughed at, or hurt)? Has she tried to express herself only to have you interrupt her and tell her what YOU think? These are the kinds of things I was fishing for. Because if there IS any of that in you, she probably stopped telling you the truth a long time ago.
> 
> 
> And this is the second case in which women become dissatisfied - they move straight from one man - their father - to their husband and they literally 'grow up' with their husband. He is her security, he allows her to 'grow up' in safety and learn who she is, what she wants to become. It's typically around the ages of 35-40 that women often start wondering why they needed that security, they now understand themselves, feel secure in their own abilities, they no longer 'need' a man to protect them. And at the same time, the man has become 'nice' - no longer thrilling, exciting, daring. He changes diapers, cleans up vomit...he's just part of the fixtures.
> 
> So, between her 'coming of age' and their lives becoming settled, when a man, usually ANY man but especially a man who has such an interesting career, comes around and starts paying attention to her, she's gonna notice. And start wondering what she COULD have had.
> 
> Even if she has no intention of ever leaving you OR of cheating, that draw away from the stability and safety of the husband who helped her grow up to a man who dares to flirt with her...it's fairly hard to resist. And especially considering that she never lived a single life, never got to meet the 'players' before when she was dating in her college years (because she was already attached to you), well, I can see how she could easily have fallen for him and the attention.
> 
> That said, it sounds like she may have learned her lesson and come running back. Time will tell. I think the only thin I'd do at this point is insist that you be given access to her medical records so that you can see the explanations given for the doctor's visits.


Its scary how good she is at telling this, its campfire quality. All I need is someone running up behind me saying Boo and I wont be able to sleep tonight ha ha, but I have never heard it explained better, well said!


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## G.J.

Driftin on it was hard reading through your post as you really needed to split the quotes from your input 
and I'm afraid Francesco will have a doubly hard time reading through it BUT it was a *very good post* putting the thread into sequence

I said yesterday after reading Francesco's latest posts and talking with my wife that I'm afraid he didn't get the truth 

Francesco can only uncover the truth now at this stage I.M.O.by going neutron nuclear (big bang doesn't completely destroy everything) which is 
what I did with my wife who is also Sicilian.

If you want to do it or consider it P.M. me Francesco and ill send you the info on how I did it but it will mean hard in her face confrontation
It worked for me fully, my wife is exact same as yours in background and being her first etc.


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## bandit.45

Well of course he didn't get the truth. And until he kicks that marble pedestal out from under her, and makes her face the possibility of divorce, he won't get the truth.


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## drifting on

Ok, I tried to make this an easier read.



Francesco

The following is my opinion of what happened, I apologize as this story has triggered me from your first post. I have empathy for you as I know exactly what you are going through. Some of my comments are sarcastic but not malicious. I post this so you can see where I feel or know where your wife is lying. As I said I've gone through this and it took myself time before I saw how my WW had lied. Now that the rose colored glasses are off I have a much different view. I never thought my wife to be capable of such deception and destruction, but she is. I have offered my wife reconciliation, I know you say you couldn't do reconciliation. Everybody is different and at the moment I would not have been able to offer your wife reconciliation. My explanations are below and again this is my opinion based upon your posts. 

Before I post what I see you have several things to sort out regardless of what you want to do. Your wife was the object of the affection of another man, she liked it, she hid this from you. You have to decide based upon her actions and not words if she is deserving to stay with you. Are you able to accept her behavior as harsh as it was? Are you willing to risk this has the potential to happen again? No relationship comes with a guarantee, even if you divorce and date someone else it could happen again. 

Here is how I view what happened based on your posts. This is my opinion, take it for what it's worth.

Francesco
First post
First time surprising her at work, white faced. You talked then left. 
Second time, wife and OM return ten minutes late. You surprise them and they look embarrassed. "They tried to play it cool saying that they had gone on lunch like USUALLY". 

Drifting on
Your wife said TWICE. Usually would mean more than a couple times a week. My WW said her and her OM had lunch two to three times a week. Would you like to guess my WW wording, we usually have lunch together if we aren't too busy. See why I hate lunch? 

Francesco
On page two you post she laughed and knew you were going to ask. You also say, " if it wasn't for this co- worker that gets to my sixth sense I would not be so paranoid". 

Drifting on 
Gut doesn't lie Francesco. 

Francesco
Then you say, "that they are working on some papers that need to be done very soon, so that's why they have lunch together".

Drifting on
Think back to this, it sounds so casual and so much more than two times. I would say from experience, more then three times a week. Also notice how she sees nothing wrong here, that is comfort, and that is very bad. Your wife lied casually, about being with a male for lunch, even though they work together eight hours a day. Minimum three times a week, even after you showed up twice and they were together. She should be employee of the year to work through lunch getting HIS papers together.

Francesco
Your next post, "why not tell me about it?" 
Drifting on 
She had a minimum three times to confess, did she? I hope you do know why Francesco, she can't tell you she's having an affair, the same post you say she knows you won't forgive. 

Francesco
On page four you say that you think she knows going to lunch alone with a male is wrong. You tell CONANHUB "I think she knew it immediately and that was also the reason she turned white". 

Drifting on
I don't think she knew. 

Francesco
Page six you post your friends account of lunch. "He said that where very confident...not like a usual coworkers usually behaves". 

Drifting on 
Hmmm, she is lying and gaslighting you already. Then the cheek to cheek kisses. 

Francesco
Page seven you say, " must say that this last month she seems more horny"... 

Drifting on
Hmmm, menopause and she has no desire for sex. I would say not true. 

Francesco
Page nine you say, "she was the one who gave me some boundaries". 

Drifting on
I'd like to know her boundaries, certainly not lying and being alone with a male coworker for lunch. 

Francesco
Page ten, your friend followed, you said "I just finished talking with my friend...not good." Now remember he didn't call he came to you in person. He caresses her cheek, holds her hand, CONFIDENT body language. She didn't mind at ALL. 

Drifting on
Your friend said there were many signs of confidence between them. This is where they ate at the bench, no doctors office. Pictures given to you and you were pissed. My WW was confident also, and she didn't even receive the news she had menopause. Your wife said that is why he comforted her. Nowhere in that post does it say she was upset, it did say HE was upset. I wonder why Francesco. 

Drifting on
Every time you have checked on her at lunch she is with OM. You are being gaslighted to new heights even for TAM. There is no way they spend that much time together and this not be physical. You stated in a different post your wife is forty (looks ten years younger) and like Sharon Stone. Your wife is correct, he's just a good friend, Francesco, I'm only at page twelve!!!

Francesco
Page thirteen, "Quiting would devastate her, but for sure she can be transferred." 

Drifting on
This would be a must, she should be having no contact as she has lied about her relationship with him. They are far closer then she will ever say. She has had multiple opportunities to tell you the truth. Menopause is normally not life or death, but she isn't wanting you to know, that's for damn sure. 

Francesco
Page fourteen, you say, "I think that something physical has happened." 

Drifting on
Based upon what you have seen you thought it was physical. I did the same, I told my therapist I KNEW it was physical. I don't think men want to ever imagine that our wives are having an affair, but most men don't go to physical unless they think that it is. At this point your gut is saying physical, and with very good reason just based on what your friend stated. 

Francesco
Page fifteen, you say, "if they got physical, and if she has feelings for him good for her cause she can have him, but if she hasn't have feeling's then then she's really stupid for trowing away our marriage." 

Drifting on
You have now realized she is capable but in shock to see that she would cheat. Add the lies and that each time you or a friend watch her they have lunch together. Confident body language, gentle touches in public, and lies. I don't see your wife having any boundaries, that's dangerous.

Francesco
Page twenty three, you say, "After a while we where cuddling, i couldn't not ask a question, it was hard not to. So i asked if she is happy with our marriage, and if there would be something that she could change what it would be.. She hugged me tighter and smiled, answers that it couldn't be better! Now here is where she caught me off guard... she also said "i just wish that YOU will always be there for me like now!" Why wouldn't i? cause at 40 i'm starting to have health problems to early. WHAT? "

Drifting on
Guilty conscious on her part? She's telling lies, having lunch with another male, replacing you. She feels very guilty, but not enough to calm you, same as my WW. 

Francesco 
Then you say, "Anyway i told her how much she meant to me and nothing in the world will ever change that... and then to just make a joke to laugh said "of course my only issue would be if you cheated" "Never crossed my mind" was the answer". 

Drifting on
It hasn't? Then why the lies, multiple lunches, touching, not telling you? 

Francesco
This is your response to the first time you caught her, "my reaction was like WTF, hers was oh shxxxt!
I tried not to show it. She for sure knows that being alone with any OM not in a public place would get to me". 

Drifting on
Oh shxxxt! She knows for sure being alone in private would get to you. She did it anyway. Risking everything for nothing, makes no sense, it was physical. She won't risk everything for friendship. 

Francesco
Page twenty five, you say, "I did!! i asked her why she thinks that i might not be there in the future, and she joked about her health small problems, and that since up to now i have no problems, that i would find a new woman to replace her. it was all said with a smile and not serious, but anyway it got me thinking." 

Drifting on
Another chance to end the lies, talk to you, nope. 

Francesco
Then you say, "Well... since she has this problem with gluten free food, she thinks that it causes privations for the rest of us, also she starts thinking that she's starting to have small health issues that prevent her from doing things together like before. cant really ex plane it better, but little problems seem get to her." 

Drifting on
I agree, little problems big reaction, big problems no reaction. Not good.

Francesco
Page twenty six, you say, "with my friend we agreed to go with our plan only when and if she gets busted red handed.... in the meanwhile i just need to keep my guard up.
I agree with who said that i need to date more and work less...
If she is having some sort of an affair with this OM, i would be more shocked as the way she manages ti hide it and keep up a family good life then the cheating in it self!" 

Drifting on
She is hiding it, she is lying, she is capable. 

Francesco
Page thirty two, you say, "honestly no.... but then again when you have no reasons to believe so you are kind of blind. right?" 

Drifting on 
The question was if you caught her in any lie. You have now and it's huge. 

Francesco
Page forty six, you say, " he then waited outside and after a little bit more then a half hour they came back down, my wife had papers and she was watching them with OM, then he gave her a hug and they went back to work." 

Drifting on
Papers they were both looking at. She lied to say he doesn't know. They hugged, not as goodbye, they had to drive back to work together. 

Francesco
Then you say, "In a few words OM was helping my wife.... My wife was looking for a gynecologist because she wanted to understand the problems that she was having. OM told her about his wife and she excepted first to meet her and then to be her patient." 

Drifting on
What a nice guy don't you think. 

Francesco
Then you say, "She had symptoms of menopause and never told me about it, she said that she was afraid that i would get upset and change. She told me that OM was giving her rides to his wife studio on hours that she was free, that OM knowing the problem was only being gentile. 
I found about this after i told her that i found it strange that she would always be with him on car rides during lunch. She cried at the thought that i suspected her having an affair, and apologized for not telling me what really was going on." 

Drifting on
All that you have said prior to this is no fights, so why not tell you? OM was giving rides and being gentile, I'm sure his intentions are pure. You had to pull the information from her, she admitted what you knew. Did she come clean about the bench here? No, she was protecting OM and her affair. She should have told you about every lunch but didn't. This is how I know it's physical, my WW did the exact same.

Francesco
Page forty seven, you say, "OM knew what was going on only when he saw my wife upset and sad after one of the latest visits (my wife is only 40 so she was plenty upset when she found out that she really has this problem). According to her, she told him in that moment of weakness, and he suggested to talk to me and told her to not worry....
If he in the meanwhile was playing a duoble game i don't know... but doing so while with OMW? 

Drifting on
SHE TOLD HIM IN A MOMENT OF WEAKNESS!!! And she continues to lie about this. She could have come clean and still won't Francesco. She is gaslighting you and protecting OM! It was difficult for me also but your wife isn't being straight. 

Francesco
Page forty eight, you say, "I couldn't ask her that, because otherwise she would've known that i had her followed. I am guessing that OM knew by then the problem and was giving her courage to not worry..." 

Drifting on
She already told you on page forty seven.

Francesco
Page forty nine, you say, Originally Posted by turnera:
Just ask your wife for all the receipts. She already knows you're doubting her. Let her prove it to you.

"she showed them on her own. she showed me the test results, the requites of other test's and also that she needs to go on the pill written by omw." 

Drifting on
Why didn't she tell you then that the doctor isn't charging her? Probably because she wouldn't be able to explain how damning that looks.

Francesco
Page fifty, you say, "no, i still have doubts but many things she said have sense." 

Drifting on
If you look closely at what makes sense it won't. Your doubts will find the truth. 

Francesco
Page sixty one, you say, "According to her she was not sure and wanted to be certain, the OM probably knew what was going on in December, not before. The Gyno is OMW's. 
Also she was willing to tell me sunday night, but my dad had that problem and she waited." 

Drifting on
She already admitted OM knew. Is she lying again? Is she trying to dig her rabbit hole deeper?

Francesco
Then you say, "yes i know, ther are some parts thAT i dont like, but OM has known her problem only recently, not from october. I probably write in a bad way, cause it seems that i keep on answering the same questions." Again you knew that OM knew.

Francesco
Page seventy one, you say, "no, thanking OMW will ensure me; 1) that OMW fully knows how close they have been
2) TELLS MY WIFE THAT I MIGHT KNOW MORE then what she thinks
3) makes them both understand (OMW and my W) that now I am in charge and that OMW will need to share with me further communications. Also.... with me saying that will for sure make my W. understand my double sense, it's an Italian way to make them have the message." 

Drifting on
Your wife apologized to the doctor who disrespected you and gave you attitude, she didn't even defend you. She has no idea how this has affected you. She also knows she can never tell you it was a physical affair. 

Francesco
Page seventy five, you say, "Anyway we arrive at OMW office and i felt as that lady was x-raying me! First thing she said was: what's the pleasure of this visit? with a shxxxty face. I was pxssed already on my own and i simply responded: Only to finally meet the doctor that is taking care of my wife, and also to know what i can do to help, is this a problem for you? So i guess we both got bxxtchy!" 

Drifting on
So doctors normally greet the spouse with an attitude. I wonder why? 

Francesco
Then say, "OMW said that since my wife and her had already talked about everything, she just didn't understand why we needed to meet also. Because i LOVE my wife and I wanted to understand. I grabbed the receipts and put them on the table and said: for example all these visits made in the past months, and i had known only recently the reason why. She first looked and then confirmed all the visits and in a unpleasant way added that it was up to my wife to let me know things and not her." 

Drifting on
She verified free appointments?! Why free? I would have told the doctor your husband knows. What do you make of that? 

Francesco
Then say, "I stayed calm.... and said yes! you are right! and i guess that i must thank your husband for this also. She looked at me as if i was crazy... my wife did also! i said if it wasn't for him that accompanied my wife AT ALMOST EVERY SINGLE VISIT, she wouldn't have knowed about her problems. And yes.... i agree that this was something that my wife needed to share with only me instead with your husband. That put a question mark on her forehead!
In that moment i was like possessed and in rage, and i went on asking if she was ok allowing her husband being so kind with other women? Needless to say she said that now she understands the reason why my wife doesn't talk with me about certain things, and that i am maybe an insecure person. I just smiled and while i was getting up said to her: or maybe i now know why your husband seeks to help other women." 

Drifting on
I would have said even if she can't talk to me your husband should not know!! 

Francesco
Then say, "Have a nice day and i left.... i heard my wife apologize to her and then she came out following me, and asked what was all that about.
I told her that i knew everything... that she and OM had crossed the boundary and that i was really pxssed! She was in complete shock.
Then began to explane that OM was only a good friend and was helping, he doesn't know what her problems are, she never told him, he just thought that she was worried for something more serious. I said is that why he huges and kisses you on a public bench where everybody can see? or maybe thats the reason why they are often on there own during lunch breaks?
She kept on saying that nothing was out of order, that all was just innocent and that she has no feelings nor desire for OM... actually she seemed almost flattered by my jealousy." 

Drifting on
Your wife apologizing is a slap in the face. If OM didn't know then why did she tell you she told him in a moment of weakness? Why did he touch her face and hold her hand? She should have reacted harshly to OM and the doctor but instead protected them both. She's protecting her lover that replaced you. She even asked what was that all about, clearly to only admit what you know. 

Francesco 
Then you say, "She started to cry and plead, and i just said : did i ever disrespect you? well now i will and i hung up, shoot down my cell and dumped myself on the coach." 

Drifting on
Too little too late. Even I would question if you could reconcile. 

Francesco
Page seventy eight, you say, "- OM never attempted to get to her, he thought that my wife was worried about cancer, and till this day W. never told him it was about menopause."

Drifting on
I think this is bulls--t. OM knew. Another lie on her part. You think the quack doctor kept it to herself too?! Not after your visit she didn't. 

Francesco
Then you say, "- That she did wrong not telling me, but her intentions where not to hurt me, she just needed to understand. She confessed that lately she had very less desire for sex, and was afraid. Thats why she asked if i will always love her that night time ago." 

Drifting on
More bull, all her lies, hard work to keep it secret. And she did all this not to worry you?! No, she did all that to hide her affair. None of her actions support someone who is innocent. 

Francesco
Then you say, " That the bench episode was when she got the certain response of menopause, and since OM saw her upset and not wanting to be invading her privacy he was only comforting me to not worry and all can be resolved. That his wife is a great doctor and that she will take care of her. And to tell me whatever was going on. 

Drifting on
This is the best gaslighting I've seen yet! Really to tell you!! 

Francesco
Then you say, "- That the white face was only because she was caught off guard seeing me and knew that i might get the wrong impression, nothing else.
In a few words she was very sincere, and also apologizing on every episode. She admitted that she might have crossed the boundary but honestly didn't think much bad about it, after all we had a stable and fulfilling healthy marriage..." 

Drifting on
White faced as she was guilty. If she knew it was inapropriate she would have come clean!! But no, protect the affair at all costs. 

Francesco
Then you say, "So i just looked at her... i said what did she think about OMW? She felt indebted towards her. She had helped out of her working hours, She had not taken even one euro, proved to be a good doctor.... but was in shock with what happened that day and was in total blackout. She said that she will find another doctor. And she did.
As for OM she swore to God to not go N.C unless for work issues. 
This will be clarified on my next update.... cause me and om did have a confrontation a couple of days after." 

Drifting on
No apology for not defending you with the doctor, feels in debited to the doctor!! Blackout?! You should give her an academy award!! If she feels in debited why find a new doctor? Clearly she has no feelings towards you. She kept all of this from you and yes, shared it with OM!!!! She wasn't in shock she was scared she had been found out with her affair. 

Francesco
Then you say, "According to her she didn't lie upon nothing.... she just omitted the real reason why OM was there. She did not want to tell me straight out "i think i am starting to have a menopause" ... for her it was something to be sure of before telling me. 
Also they know each other for over i don't know how many years... but she did admit that it was looking bad from the outside and after my blowout she realized that for me it was from the inside also and apologized.
in a few words she didn't think bad of it.... but 2 day after i will prove her that it was! i will explane better on my next update." 

Drifting on
Omitting the reason, and time with OM IS A LIE!!! Diagnosed or not she should have shared that info. Disrespect. Later admits it was looking bad?! She has no boundaries and did not care as she lied about her relationship with OM!!! Her affair almost got caught, you will never get that smoking gun unless she confesses. She won't until she has nothing left to lose. After all this she doesn't think too bad of it?! Wow.

Francesco
Page eighty, you say," that i needed to have a talk with OM. She was a little puzzled but understood the reason. I told her that i wanted to do it that next morning (never know if she could aware him) before they start there work shift. I had to start my shift at 10:00, so i had the time. At first she was questioning me for the real reason not to do it in a more comfortable time, then she just looked at me and said ok... come with me tomorrow morning and do what you want but be polite. Sure i will...." 

Drifting on
She doesn't know why?! Wait for a comfortable time?! You do see she is protecting OM valiantly here. Very loyal she is to OM, bet you wish she defended you with the doctor as much as she is OM!! Politely, please tell me she did not say that. 

Francesco
Then you say, "I just told him that now there are not any problems, but if in the future there will be, then he wont see it coming. He asked if i was threatening him, that he is a public investigator, i said no i'm just warning you, and that i am a public armed guard man that i can become a private axxhole for him." 

Drifting on
He asked if you were threatening him. He didn't say, don't threaten me. Big difference here. If he asks he has no respect for you. If he says don't threaten me he feels you will do something. So he thinks you are a laughing stock. He probably did laugh about this to your wife, but she will never tell you. 

Francesco
Page eighty one, you say, "yes. she said that OM said that she has one hell (corna dure) of a husband. Then he made a joke about the next time she find a ride with a female coworker or a taxi, it was said just to calm the waters. My wife told him that she is the one to blame and handled the situation poorly." 

Drifting on
So it was a joke to OM already and her taking fault with OM is basically an apology. This isn't over. 

Francesco
Then you say, "ouch according to you i have a good actress at home? i am not being sarcastic nor mad or whatever, just wondering...
my friend already told me i did wrong, thats why he said i cant do his type of job." 

Drifting on
We all see it but you Francesco!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kenmoore14217

:smthumbup::smthumbup: Wow, that's amazing drifting on


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## Q tip

turnera said:


> And of course you know that, by our nature, men are almost always clueless if the women are unhappy. Look up "walkaway wives" to understand. Women easily meet most of men's needs - sex, housekeeping, cooking, childraising, companionship. But men very often FAIL to meet women's top needs - conversation, safety, being treated as equals, respect - and don't even realize it.
> 
> That's when women start to slowly become dissatisfied.
> 
> And what I was trying to get at is, do you have a temper? Has she told you things and then been ridiculed for them (so she learned to shut up and stop telling you her 'truths' out of fear of being dismissed, laughed at, or hurt)? Has she tried to express herself only to have you interrupt her and tell her what YOU think? These are the kinds of things I was fishing for. Because if there IS any of that in you, she probably stopped telling you the truth a long time ago.
> 
> 
> And this is the second case in which women become dissatisfied - they move straight from one man - their father - to their husband and they literally 'grow up' with their husband. He is her security, he allows her to 'grow up' in safety and learn who she is, what she wants to become. It's typically around the ages of 35-40 that women often start wondering why they needed that security, they now understand themselves, feel secure in their own abilities, they no longer 'need' a man to protect them. And at the same time, the man has become 'nice' - no longer thrilling, exciting, daring. He changes diapers, cleans up vomit...he's just part of the fixtures.
> 
> So, between her 'coming of age' and their lives becoming settled, when a man, usually ANY man but especially a man who has such an interesting career, comes around and starts paying attention to her, she's gonna notice. And start wondering what she COULD have had.
> 
> Even if she has no intention of ever leaving you OR of cheating, that draw away from the stability and safety of the husband who helped her grow up to a man who dares to flirt with her...it's fairly hard to resist. And especially considering that she never lived a single life, never got to meet the 'players' before when she was dating in her college years (because she was already attached to you), well, I can see how she could easily have fallen for him and the attention.
> 
> That said, it sounds like she may have learned her lesson and come running back. Time will tell. I think the only thin I'd do at this point is insist that you be given access to her medical records so that you can see the explanations given for the doctor's visits.


T you are a goddess...


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## Q tip

who does francescos wife lie to more...OM or Francesco. 

has frencescos W protected OM or her marriage.

francesco needs to track phone conversations, texts the nights he stayed away.

OM wont go near F wife unless she desires it.


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## drifting on

Q tip said:


> who does francescos wife lie to more...OM or Francesco.
> 
> has frencescos W protected OM or her marriage.
> 
> francesco needs to track phone conversations, texts the nights he stayed away.
> 
> OM wont go near F wife unless she desires it.




Q tip

1) Francesco. Reason; she shared her medical history with OM during a moment of weakness. Weakness has been boundaries, proven when she went white faced and embarrassed. She knows right from wrong, she knows what she risked, she didn't risk it over friendship she already had. She risked it because she enjoyed the physical aspect of the affair. 

2) OM. Reason; respect and loyalty are very important to Italians. Not to say it isn't with any other nationality but it is almost sacred. This is one of the biggest reasons Francesco could not reconcile in my opinion. However she didn't defend Francesco to the doctor then afterward claimed a "blackout" period. Because she knows how much loyalty and respect are valued. Francesco even admitted this when he told his wife, when did I ever DISRESPECT you? He then said he would show her and didn't go home that night. Francesco has shared that if she has feelings for OM, good then he can have her. It would be disrespectful to OM to take her as she is not loyal or respectful. Actually it's payback don Francesco if OM takes her. Francesco's wife also said he can talk to OM but be polite. WTF. To me this is a kick in the groin to Francesco that his wife asks him to be polite to who she replaced him with. About as disrespectful as she could be without bringing OM to their house. 

3) waste of time. Reason; my WW would not use any personal electronics until the very end. I caught a total of four emails, each about ten words, actually less. Francesco's wife is doing the same, too much time to communicate at work. I'm sure OM has a private office and that is where the physical occurs. No missing time, no communication, no real way to prove an affair. I've been there, it's complete hell.

4) OM will and Francesco's wife has already given the green light to move forward. See OM asked Francesco if he was threatening him. I get threatened at least three times a week, it's laughable to me. OM didn't say don't threaten me. That OM would consider is serious. OM is an investigator, I'm sure he is threatened as is Francesco. Same with me. If the threat is believed to be serious you respond differently. If someone tells me they are going to kill me I usually laugh. It happens to frequently with me to take each person serious, it also upsets the person making the threat more angry. So OM asking Francesco if he is threatening is basically shrugged off, or disrespected. If you see the person making the threat to be serious or capable, you say don't threaten me and get in their face. This is taken seriously. OM didn't do that therefore he has shrugged it off. Francesco's wife gave the green light to OM by saying it was her fault for this mess. I take that two ways, one that she had an affair and she feels guilty, and two that she is basically apologizing to OM. This is why I said I don't think reconciliation would be possible. 

I do wish Francesco the best of luck as I empathize with his position. His wife has still really only confessed to two lunches with OM, Francesco already knew the rest of what she admitted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

Drifting on, 

Remind me to pack a lunch the next time I read one of your posts.


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## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> Drifting on,
> 
> Remind me to pack a lunch the next time I read one of your posts.


Drifting is healing by writing this.
But now b45 all your exes are no in Texas.
End T/J


----------



## drifting on

bandit.45 said:


> Drifting on,
> 
> Remind me to pack a lunch the next time I read one of your posts.




bandit.45

Snack size post, guilty as charged. So is Francesco's wife.


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## drifting on

tom67 said:


> Drifting is healing by writing this.
> But now b45 all your exes are no in Texas.
> End T/J


tom67

Not sure I healed at all with this thread, hit very close to home with me.


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## bandit.45

I'm not saying Drifting on is wrong. I agree with most of what he writes but...damn that's a novella.


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## italianjob

I agree that Francesco doesn't have the whole truth yet, but I wouldn't be so sure this was already physical (not impossibile, of course).

It's not that easy to carry on sexual encounters inside the workplace without getting caught by the coworkers, a lot depends on logistics, and frankly, italian public offices are often adapted into ancient bulidings halls, absolutely not suitable for something like that.

If they were going at it in the workplace the only way to be reasonably "safe" from other coworkers would be after hours (but we know Francesco's wife usually doesn't stop for overtime) and especially lunchtime.

If that was the case they wouldn't need to go around town in OMs car, and surveillance would have noticed both of them not coming out of the building at lunch, I guess.

IMO, if this did become physical, we would discover that OM had a flat somewhere around town, that they would reach by car (he has a good rank in public administration, his wife is a doctor, money is not an issue, they probably do have properties beside the house where they live).


----------



## drifting on

italianjob said:


> I agree that Francesco doesn't have the whole truth yet, but I wouldn't be so sure this was already physical (not impossibile, of course).
> 
> It's not that easy to carry on sexual encounters inside the workplace without getting caught by the coworkers, a lot depends on logistics, and frankly, italian public offices are often adapted into ancient bulidings halls, absolutely not suitable for something like that.
> 
> If they were going at it in the workplace the only way to be reasonably "safe" from other coworkers would be after hours (but we know Francesco's wife usually doesn't stop for overtime) and especially lunchtime.
> 
> If that was the case they wouldn't need to go around town in OMs car, and surveillance would have noticed both of them not coming out of the building at lunch, I guess.
> 
> IMO, if this did become physical, we would discover that OM had a flat somewhere around town, that they would reach by car (he has a good rank in public administration, his wife is a doctor, money is not an issue, they probably do have properties beside the house where they live).




Unfortunately I disagree, it could happen in any room or closet for that matter. With the touching in public, confident body language, they were not concerned with the thoughts of co-workers noticing. They could also be leaving at other times then lunch for meetings. Her sharing of her medical issues shows she has complete trust in OM. I believe this rabbit hole runs very deep. Unfortunately I know this first hand, but I still have hope that I am wrong but the evidence doesn't lie


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## G.J.

Must concur with 'Drifting on' as another poster I've read on here his wife and her co worker were going into an office for romps

The biggest flag is the closeness they shared as no Sicilian girl/women would let another man get so close, my wife said she would 
call her a fibber to her face if she tried to say any thing different

Francesco knows this as well I'm sure


----------



## Q tip

even an innocent sounding thing like working lunch paperwork. if it was that important, why not do the papers at the office where all the resources are. not sure how to resolve a paperwork issue over lunch...

that to me is an issue too. and coming back late with OM from this lunch... and the "OMG! Ive been caught white face"... not yet discussed or explained - just sounded like excuses not reasons. if my wife caught me like this, the first thing I would do is smile and go to her - pleasantly surprised. not white faced, --- unless I just came back doing the OW during lunch.


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## Dogbert

Q tip said:


> and the "OMG! Ive been caught white face"... not yet discussed or explained - just sounded like excuses not reasons. if my wife caught me like this, the first thing I would do is smile and go to her - pleasantly surprised. not white faced, --- unless I just came back doing the OW during lunch.


I agree. The "deer in the headlights" is an expression of fear or panic. Like you said Q, when a person is innocent, his/her initial surprise usually gives way to a smile and an approaching towards his/her loved one.

It would be interesting if Francesco would ask his wife to imagine for a minute if he had confided in a married female co-worker about health issues, had secret appointments to a doctor for months, had the OW take him to his doctor appointments because the doctor was "her husband" and purposely kept her in the dark about these activities. What would be going through her head? What would be her thoughts if she saw Francesco getting out of another woman's car and being shocked at seeing her looking at him?

Now this may all turn out to be paranoid speculation on our part but what is not is paranoid speculation is that Francesco's wife engaged in secrecy and breaking boundaries, two vital ingredients in the development of an affair.


----------



## Q tip

Dogbert said:


> I agree. The "deer in the headlights" is an expression of fear or panic. Like you said Q, when a person is innocent, his/her initial surprise usually gives way to a smile and an approaching towards his/her loved one.
> 
> It would be interesting if Francesco would ask his wife to imagine for a minute if he had confided in a married female co-worker about health issues, had secret appointments to a doctor for months, had the OW take him to his doctor appointments because the doctor was "her husband" and purposely kept her in the dark about these activities. What would be going through her head? What would be her thoughts if she saw Francesco getting out of another woman's car and being shocked at seeing her looking at him?
> 
> Now this may all turn out to be paranoid speculation on our part but what is not is paranoid speculation is that Francesco's wife engaged in secrecy and breaking boundaries, two vital ingredients in the development of an affair.


turning the roles around and I was the offending spouse...

well, if you put it all that way, I'd say there was an affair going on. how physical would be her only question. comfortable body language only lovers share, kisses, hugs, tear clearing and hand holding already checked off the list. 

Oral, full on, where, how many times and how long ago did it start would be the START of her questioning. after all, every time shes see me, I'm with OW.

my W has buddies who spy and confirm all public actions. everything. perhaps I would only admit to what she seems to know and minimize the affair. hoping to rugsweep. afterall, if she really knew everything, Id be served with D papers, so its time to gamble.

i'd be served D papers and one offer to come clean. then she would probably D me anyway. how could i blame her.

what could i say - its all just a misunderstanding, its not what you obviously think, shes just a friend, me saying my W is crazy to doctor spouse? she only cares about my health? has this been said already somewhere on TAM..? any familiar patterns..?

but then, what are the chances i would be innocent. a wholesome unaware adult completely oblivious to the attention i get and give...

...queue the white face.


the only question for me is, do we want to stop or go deeper underground. kinda depends on how far it went and how much of everything she actually knows...


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## Francesco

Hello everyone, unfortunately I was not present because my father had a new illness and was hospitalized again, but now it seems he has re-stabilized.He returned home after a week, but on the 26th of this month must be back for further controls.
A lot has happened in between and as soon as I have time I will update, in the meantime I will try to read all that has been written even if some things seem a bit exaggerated. I'll be back soon, and thanks for comments expressed so far ... 
BTW, my nick name is Ciccio not Frank, Frank is used in anglo-saxon area's and so i thought to use it as an abbreviation for all of you.


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## Francesco

drifting on said:


> Francesco
> 
> The following is my opinion of what happened, I apologize as this story has triggered me from your first post. I have empathy for you as I know exactly what you are going through. Some of my comments are sarcastic but not malicious. I post this so you can see where I feel or know where your wife is lying. As I said I've gone through this and it took myself time before I saw how my WW had lied. Now that the rose colored glasses are off I have a much different view. I never thought my wife to be capable of such deception and destruction, but she is. I have offered my wife reconciliation, I know you say you couldn't do reconciliation. Everybody is different and at the moment I would not have been able to offer your wife reconciliation. My explanations are below and again this is my opinion based upon your posts.
> 
> Before I post what I see you have several things to sort out regardless of what you want to do. Your wife was the object of the affection of another man, she liked it, she hid this from you. You have to decide based upon her actions and not words if she is deserving to stay with you. Are you able to accept her behavior as harsh as it was? Are you willing to risk this has the potential to happen again? No relationship comes with a guarantee, even if you divorce and date someone else it could happen again.
> 
> Here is how I view what happened based on your posts. This is my opinion, take it for what it's worth.
> 
> 
> 
> First post
> First time surprising her at work, white faced. You talked then left.
> Second time, wife and OM return ten minutes late. You surprise them and they look embarrassed. "They tried to play it cool saying that they had gone on lunch like USUALLY".
> Your wife said TWICE. Usually would mean more than a couple times a week. My WW said her and her OM had lunch two to three times a week. Would you like to guess my WW wording, we usually have lunch together if we aren't too busy. See why I hate lunch?
> 
> On page two you post she laughed and knew you were going to ask. You also say, " if it wasn't for this co- worker that gets to my sixth sense I would not be so paranoid". Gut doesn't lie Francesco. Then you say, "that they are working on some papers that need to be done very soon, so that's why they have lunch together". Think back to this, it sounds so casual and so much more than two times. I would say from experience, more then three times a week. Also notice how she sees nothing wrong here, that is comfort, and that is very bad. Your wife lied casually, about being with a male for lunch, even though they work together eight hours a day. Minimum three times a week, even after you showed up twice and they were together. She should be employee of the year to work through lunch getting HIS papers together.
> 
> Your next post, "why not tell me about it?" She had a minimum three times to confess, did she? I hope you do know why Francesco, she can't tell you she's having an affair, the same post you say she knows you won't forgive. On page four you say that you think she knows going to lunch alone with a male is wrong. You tell CONANHUB "I think she knew it immediately and that was also the reason she turned white". I don't think she knew.
> 
> Page six you post your friends account of lunch. "He said that where very confident...not like a usual coworkers usually behaves". Hmmm, she is lying and gaslighting you already. Then the cheek to cheek kisses. Page seven you say, " must say that this last month she seems more horny"... Hmmm, menopause and she has no desire for sex. I would say not true. Page nine you say, "she was the one who gave me some boundaries". I'd like to know her boundaries, certainly not lying and being alone with a male coworker for lunch.
> 
> Page ten, your friend followed, you said "I just finished talking with my friend...not good." Now remember he didn't call he came to you in person. He caresses her cheek, holds her hand, CONFIDENT body language. She didn't mind at ALL. Your friend said there were many signs of confidence between them. This is where they ate at the bench, no doctors office. Pictures given to you and you were pissed. My WW was confident also, and she didn't even receive the news she had menopause. Your wife said that is why he comforted her. Nowhere in that post does it say she was upset, it did say HE was upset. I wonder why Francesco.
> 
> Every time you have checked on her at lunch she is with OM. You are being gaslighted to new heights even for TAM. There is no way they spend that much time together and this not be physical. You stated in a different post your wife is forty (looks ten years younger) and like Sharon Stone. Your wife is correct, he's just a good friend, Francesco, I'm only at page twelve!!!
> 
> Page thirteen, "Quiting would devastate her, but for sure she can be transferred." This would be a must, she should be having no contact as she has lied about her relationship with him. They are far closer then she will ever say. She has had multiple opportunities to tell you the truth. Menopause is normally not life or death, but she isn't wanting you to know, that's for damn sure.
> 
> Page fourteen, you say, "I think that something physical has happened." Based upon what you have seen you thought it was physical. I did the same, I told my therapist I KNEW it was physical. I don't think men want to ever imagine that our wives are having an affair, but most men don't go to physical unless they think that it is. At this point your gut is saying physical, and with very good reason just based on what your friend stated.
> 
> Page fifteen, you say, "if they got physical, and if she has feelings for him good for her cause she can have him, but if she hasn't have feeling's then then she's really stupid for trowing away our marriage." You have now realized she is capable but in shock to see that she would cheat. Add the lies and that each time you or a friend watch her they have lunch together. Confident body language, gentle touches in public, and lies. I don't see your wife having any boundaries, that's dangerous.
> 
> Page twenty three, you say, "After a while we where cuddling, i couldn't not ask a question, it was hard not to. So i asked if she is happy with our marriage, and if there would be something that she could change what it would be.. She hugged me tighter and smiled, answers that it couldn't be better! Now here is where she caught me off guard... she also said "i just wish that YOU will always be there for me like now!" Why wouldn't i? cause at 40 i'm starting to have health problems to early. WHAT? " Guilty conscious on her part? She's telling lies, having lunch with another male, replacing you. She feels very guilty, but not enough to calm you, same as my WW. Then you say, "Anyway i told her how much she meant to me and nothing in the world will ever change that... and then to just make a joke to laugh said "of course my only issue would be if you cheated" "Never crossed my mind" was the answer". It hasn't? Then why the lies, multiple lunches, touching, not telling you? This is your response to the first time you caught her, "my reaction was like WTF, hers was oh shxxxt!
> I tried not to show it.
> She for sure knows that being alone with any OM not in a public place would get to me". Oh shxxxt! She knows for sure being alone in private would get to you. She did it anyway. Risking everything for nothing, makes no sense, it was physical. She won't risk everything for friendship.
> 
> Page twenty five, you say, "I did!! i asked her why she thinks that i might not be there in the future, and she joked about her health small problems, and that since up to now i have no problems, that i would find a new woman to replace her. it was all said with a smile and not serious, but anyway it got me thinking." Another chance to end the lies, talk to you, nope. Then you say, "Well... since she has this problem with gluten free food, she thinks that it causes privations for the rest of us, also she starts thinking that she's starting to have small health issues that prevent her from doing things together like before.
> cant really ex plane it better, but little problems seem get to her." I agree, little problems big reaction, big problems no reaction. Not good.
> 
> Page twenty six, you say, "with my friend we agreed to go with our plan only when and if she gets busted red handed.... in the meanwhile i just need to keep my guard up.
> I agree with who said that i need to date more and work less...
> If she is having some sort of an affair with this OM, i would be more shocked as the way she manages ti hide it and keep up a family good life then the cheating in it self!" She is hiding it, she is lying, she is capable.
> 
> Page thirty two, you say, "honestly no.... but then again when you have no reasons to believe so you are kind of blind. right? The question was if you caught her in any lie. You have now and it's huge.
> 
> Page forty six, you say, " he then waited outside and after a little bit more then a half hour they came back down, my wife had papers and she was watching them with OM, then he gave her a hug and they went back to work." Papers they were both looking at. She lied to say he doesn't know. They hugged, not as goodbye, they had to drive back to work together. Then you say, "In a few words OM was helping my wife.... My wife was looking for a gynecologist because she wanted to understand the problems that she was having. OM told her about his wife and she excepted first to meet her and then to be her patient." What a nice guy don't you think. Then you say, "She had symptoms of menopause and never told me about it, she said that she was afraid that i would get upset and change. She told me that OM was giving her rides to his wife studio on hours that she was free, that OM knowing the problem was only being gentile.
> I found about this after i told her that i found it strange that she would always be with him on car rides during lunch. She cried at the thought that i suspected her having an affair, and apologized for not telling me what really was going on." All that you have said prior to this is no fights, so why not tell you? OM was giving rides and being gentile, I'm sure his intentions are pure. You had to pull the information from her, she admitted what you knew. Did she come clean about the bench here? No, she was protecting OM and her affair. She should have told you about every lunch but didn't. This is how I know it's physical, my WW did the exact same.
> 
> Page forty seven, you say, "OM knew what was going on only when he saw my wife upset and sad after one of the latest visits (my wife is only 40 so she was plenty upset when she found out that she really has this problem). According to her, she told him in that moment of weakness, and he suggested to talk to me and told her to not worry....
> If he in the meanwhile was playing a duoble game i don't know... but doing so while with OMW? SHE TOLD HOM IN A MOMENT OF WEAKNESS!!! And she continues to lie about this. She could have come clean and still won't Francesco. She is gaslighting you and protecting OM! It was difficult for me also but your wife isn't being straight.
> 
> Page forty eight, you say, "I couldn't ask her that, because otherwise she would've known that i had her followed. I am guessing that OM knew by then the problem and was giving her courage to not worry..." She already told you on page forty seven.
> 
> Page forty nine, you say, Originally Posted by turnera:
> Just ask your wife for all the receipts. She already knows you're doubting her. Let her prove it to you.
> 
> "she showed them on her own. she showed me the test results, the requites of other test's and also that she needs to go on the pill written by omw." Why didn't she tell you then that the doctor isn't charging her? Probably because she wouldn't be able to explain how damning that looks.
> 
> Page fifty, you say, "no, i still have doubts but many things she said have sense." If you look closely at what makes sense it won't. Your doubts will find the truth.
> 
> Page sixty one, you say, "According to her she was not sure and wanted to be certain, the OM probably knew what was going on in December, not before. The Gyno is OMW's.
> Also she was willing to tell me sunday night, but my dad had that problem and she waited." She already admitted OM knew. Is she lying again? Is she trying to dig her rabbit hole deeper? Then you say, "yes i know, ther are some parts thAT i dont like, but OM has known her problem only recently, not from october. I probably write in a bad way, cause it seems that i keep on answering the same questions." Again you knew that OM knew.
> 
> Page seventy one, you say, "no, thanking OMW will ensure me; 1) that OMW fully knows how close they have been
> 2) TELLS MY WIFE THAT I MIGHT KNOW MORE then what she thinks
> 3) makes them both understand (OMW and my W) that now I am in charge and that OMW will need to share with me further communications. Also.... with me saying that will for sure make my W. understand my double sense, it's an Italian way to make them have the message." Your wife apologized to the doctor who disrespected you and gave you attitude, she didn't even defend you. She has no idea how this has affected you. She also knows she can never tell you it was a physical affair.
> 
> Page seventy five, you say, "Anyway we arrive at OMW office and i felt as that lady was x-raying me! First thing she said was: what's the pleasure of this visit? with a shxxxty face. I was pxssed already on my own and i simply responded: Only to finally meet the doctor that is taking care of my wife, and also to know what i can do to help, is this a problem for you? So i guess we both got bxxtchy!" So doctors normally greet the spouse with an attitude. I wonder why? Then say, "OMW said that since my wife and her had already talked about everything, she just didn't understand why we needed to meet also. Because i LOVE my wife and I wanted to understand. I grabbed the receipts and put them on the table and said: for example all these visits made in the past months, and i had known only recently the reason why. She first looked and then confirmed all the visits and in a unpleasant way added that it was up to my wife to let me know things and not her." She verified free appointments?! Why free? I would have told the doctor your husband knows. What do you make of that? Then say, "I stayed calm.... and said yes! you are right! and i guess that i must thank your husband for this also. She looked at me as if i was crazy... my wife did also! i said if it wasn't for him that accompanied my wife AT ALMOST EVERY SINGLE VISIT, she wouldn't have knowed about her problems. And yes.... i agree that this was something that my wife needed to share with only me instead with your husband. That put a question mark on her forehead!
> In that moment i was like possessed and in rage, and i went on asking if she was ok allowing her husband being so kind with other women? Needless to say she said that now she understands the reason why my wife doesn't talk with me about certain things, and that i am maybe an insecure person. I just smiled and while i was getting up said to her: or maybe i now know why your husband seeks to help other women." I would have said even if she can't talk to me your husband should not know!! Then say, "Have a nice day and i left.... i heard my wife apologize to her and then she came out following me, and asked what was all that about.
> I told her that i knew everything... that she and OM had crossed the boundary and that i was really pxssed! She was in complete shock.
> Then began to explane that OM was only a good friend and was helping, he doesn't know what her problems are, she never told him, he just thought that she was worried for something more serious. I said is that why he huges and kisses you on a public bench where everybody can see? or maybe thats the reason why they are often on there own during lunch breaks?
> She kept on saying that nothing was out of order, that all was just innocent and that she has no feelings nor desire for OM... actually she seemed almost flattered by my jealousy." Your wife apologizing is a slap in the face. If OM didn't know then why did she tell you she told him in a moment of weakness? Why did he touch her face and hold her hand? She should have reacted harshly to OM and the doctor but instead protected them both. She's protecting her lover that replaced you. She even asked what was that all about, clearly to only admit what you know. Then you say, "She started to cry and plead, and i just said : did i ever disrespect you? well now i will and i hung up, shoot down my cell and dumped myself on the coach." Too little too late. Even I would question if you could reconcile.
> 
> Page seventy eight, you say, "- OM never attempted to get to her, he thought that my wife was worried about cancer, and till this day W. never told him it was about menopause." I think this is bulls--t. OM knew. Another lie on her part. You think the quack doctor kept it to herself too?! Not after your visit she didn't. Then you say, "- That she did wrong not telling me, but her intentions where not to hurt me, she just needed to understand. She confessed that lately she had very less desire for sex, and was afraid. Thats why she asked if i will always love her that night time ago." More bull, all her lies, hard work to keep it secret. And she did all this not to worry you?! No, she did all that to hide her affair. None of her actions support someone who is innocent. Then you say, " That the bench episode was when she got the certain response of menopause, and since OM saw her upset and not wanting to be invading her privacy he was only comforting me to not worry and all can be resolved. That his wife is a great doctor and that she will take care of her. And to tell me whatever was going on. This is the best gaslighting I've seen yet! Really to tell you!! Then you say, "- That the white face was only because she was caught off guard seeing me and knew that i might get the wrong impression, nothing else.
> In a few words she was very sincere, and also apologizing on every episode. She admitted that she might have crossed the boundary but honestly didn't think much bad about it, after all we had a stable and fulfilling healthy marriage..." White faced as she was guilty. If she knew it was inapropriate she would have come clean!! But no, protect the affair at all costs. Then you say, "So i just looked at her... i said what did she think about OMW? She felt indebted towards her. She had helped out of her working hours, She had not taken even one euro, proved to be a good doctor.... but was in shock with what happened that day and was in total blackout. She said that she will find another doctor. And she did.
> As for OM she swore to God to not go N.C unless for work issues.
> This will be clarified on my next update.... cause me and om did have a confrontation a couple of days after." No apology for not defending you with the doctor, feels in debited to the doctor!! Blackout?! You should give her an academy award!! If she feels in debited why find a new doctor? Clearly she has no feelings towards you. She kept all of this from you and yes, shared it with OM!!!! She wasn't in shock she was scared she had been found out with her affair. Then you say, "According to her she didn't lie upon nothing.... she just omitted the real reason why OM was there. She did not want to tell me straight out "i think i am starting to have a menopause" ... for her it was something to be sure of before telling me.
> Also they know each other for over i don't know how many years... but she did admit that it was looking bad from the outside and after my blowout she realized that for me it was from the inside also and apologized.
> in a few words she didn't think bad of it.... but 2 day after i will prove her that it was! i will explane better on my next update." Omitting the reason, and time with OM IS A LIE!!! Diagnosed or not she should have shared that info. Disrespect. Later admits it was looking bad?! She has no boundaries and did not care as she lied about her relationship with OM!!! Her affair almost got caught, you will never get that smoking gun unless she confesses. She won't until she has nothing left to lose. After all this she doesn't think too bad of it?! Wow.
> 
> Page eighty, you say," that i needed to have a talk with OM. She was a little puzzled but understood the reason. I told her that i wanted to do it that next morning (never know if she could aware him) before they start there work shift. I had to start my shift at 10:00, so i had the time. At first she was questioning me for the real reason not to do it in a more comfortable time, then she just looked at me and said ok... come with me tomorrow morning and do what you want but be polite. Sure i will...." She doesn't know why?! Wait for a comfortable time?! You do see she is protecting OM valiantly here. Very loyal she is to OM, bet you wish she defended you with the doctor as much as she is OM!! Politely, please tell me she did not say that. Then you say, "I just told him that now there are not any problems, but if in the future there will be, then he wont see it coming. He asked if i was threatening him, that he is a public investigator, i said no i'm just warning you, and that i am a public armed guard man that i can become a private axxhole for him." He asked if you were threatening him. He didn't say, don't threaten me. Big difference here. If he asks he has no respect for you. If he says don't threaten me he feels you will do something. So he thinks you are a laughing stock. He probably did laugh about this to your wife, but she will never tell you.
> 
> Page eighty one, you say, "yes. she said that OM said that she has one hell (corna dure) of a husband. Then he made a joke about the next time she find a ride with a female coworker or a taxi, it was said just to calm the waters. My wife told him that she is the one to blame and handled the situation poorly." So it was a joke to OM already and her taking fault with OM is basically an apology. This isn't over. Then you say, "ouch according to you i have a good actress at home? i am not being sarcastic nor mad or whatever, just wondering...
> my friend already told me i did wrong, thats why he said i cant do his type of job." We all see it but you Francesco!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



this post deserves an immediate response, partly because there has been put time and devotion that I sincerely appreciate. Thank you Drifting!!
We had a discussion regarding many things that you pointed out, i was i bit stressed and i kind of lost it one night. I was pretty hard on her, told her things that made her cry.... i even spent some night's out. Soon i will give more details.


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## G.J.

Welcome back Francesco 
Sorry to hear about your father but good news on re-stabelizing


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## drifting on

Francesco said:


> this post deserves an immediate response, partly because there has been put time and devotion that I sincerely appreciate. Thank you Drifting!!
> We had a discussion regarding many things that you pointed out, i was i bit stressed and i kind of lost it one night. I was pretty hard on her, told her things that made her cry.... i even spent some night's out. Soon i will give more details.





Francesco

Sorry to hear about your father returning to the hospital. It's great to hear he has stabilized and allowed to go home! 
You're welcome, I only hope that it helps you. It is difficult to do what you have done but the truth is what you need to find. You need to know what to forgive or what to walk away from. Questioning your wife is excruciating but a fact if the matter that it has to be done. Best of luck to you and your loved ones.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yeswecan

Ciccio,

I hope improvement for your dad. 

It then appears there is more to the story with OM?


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## Q tip

Francesco said:


> this post deserves an immediate response, partly because there has been put time and devotion that I sincerely appreciate. Thank you Drifting!!
> We had a discussion regarding many things that you pointed out, i was i bit stressed and i kind of lost it one night. I was pretty hard on her, told her things that made her cry.... i even spent some night's out. Soon i will give more details.


it was HER behavior that hurt you.


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## Borntohang

Ciccio, 
I hope all is well!


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## Nucking Futs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La9Me7alNqA&list=PL9TQbFOWpYrpBWeQXLSQd7NkrOMP9MwRw


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## kenmoore14217

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:Indeed


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## Decorum

Francesco said:


> Soon i will give more details.


How is it going Francesco? You're absence is worrisome.


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## NosborCrop

Update OP =/


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## syhoybenden

ominous


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## Dyokemm

My suspicion is that Fancesco's dad's health really took a turn for the worse.

Francesco, 

Stay strong my friend.....I hope everything gets better with your father.


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## syhoybenden

I have a real bad feeling about this prolonged silence.


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## G.J.

Its been over a month Francesco and a lot of us are still thinking of you


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## Francesco

Hello tammers, and sorry for my delay.....
It has been a very hard period, my father was near death but he made it, and in that same time my mother also had her problems..... for 2 weeks i had both of them recovered in 2 different hospitals. Leave it to you all what kind of stress that was.
Now they are both back home, but full of suffering. Every weekend i visit them and try to help as much as i can. I call them twice a day when I'm not there.....
All this situation has reflected negatively on me. The only light that made me relax was my D5 and my S8 (turned 8 years the 25 of April). The rest was just something that annoyed me... work, friends, hobby's and also.... my wife.
She say's that all there is to know i already know. My best friend and others could'nt proof otherwise... sooooo...... i just need to except and acknowledge that she ONLY crossed some boundary's but in good faith and no second feelings.
Yeah..... but why cant i have that feeling of total commitment i once had with her (my side not her's). She has been vary close to me in these rough day's, taking care of the kids and the house while working a full time job and while i have been running from hospital to another between my breaks and at night off work. Even take care of my parents close washing them and many other thing's.......

Now since both my parents are back home since the 4th of May, life is going back to normal..... the problem is that i seemed changed.

Thank to all and for your kind words, really appreciate it.

Francesco


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## Chaparral

Unfortunately, hiding and lying about little things kills trust and feelings. The thing is you don't know if they were little things. That's the problem.

Has she noticed the change in you?

What has she done to make you feel better?

Has she had any more "lunches" with her coworker?


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## drifting on

Francesco

I am sorry to hear of the health of your parents, I will pray that they no longer suffer and recover. The stress from your parents health is hopefully not taking a big toll on your health, so I pray for you and your family also. 

As for the change in you, sadly that is something that will happen. Your trust in your wife has diminished and leaves you questioning many things and events. I can tell you that because that trust was diminished in the next few months you will struggle with her still working with the OM. I can only suggest to you that she transfer or quit so contact with the OM is eliminated. This will eat away at you slowly as it did for me. If your wife balks at all and I mean just a look of questioning you have your answer of it being physical. Her primary concern is you, her job and OM should not be relevant if she wants you to feel safe. 

Good luck to you Francesco, and God bless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## G.J.

Terrible news about you mother now having troubles but good news for your father pulling back

Turbulent time for you and this on top of having to deal with the doubt your wife has left you with

People change through out their lives as we grow and learn and this period in your life is going to be one of the most challenging I expect 

We are all here, just an email away


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## Francesco

Chaparral said:


> Unfortunately, hiding and lying about little things kills trust and feelings. The thing is you don't know if they were little things. That's the problem.
> 
> Has she noticed the change in you?
> 
> What has she done to make you feel better?
> 
> Has she had any more "lunches" with her coworker?



I guess the first part is correct. I'm working on myself to get better.
Yes, she see's me different, at first thought it was for my parents, but when i didn't do the usual with her she realized that i had back thought's of what had happened. She is alway's nice and understanding, gives me a break with the housework and kids and try's to talk often.

Don't know if she continues to have lunch with OM, but she call's me every day on her break. And she knows that i better not see him around..... especially in this period of my life


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## happyman64

Francesco

Glad you came back updated.

Now put the focus on you.

You'll feel better if you do that work.

But never turn a blind eye again towards your wife.

HM


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## Francesco

drifting on said:


> Francesco
> 
> I am sorry to hear of the health of your parents, I will pray that they no longer suffer and recover. The stress from your parents health is hopefully not taking a big toll on your health, so I pray for you and your family also.
> 
> As for the change in you, sadly that is something that will happen. Your trust in your wife has diminished and leaves you questioning many things and events. I can tell you that because that trust was diminished in the next few months you will struggle with her still working with the OM.* I can only suggest to you that she transfer or quit so contact with the OM is eliminated.* This will eat away at you slowly as it did for me. If your wife balks at all and I mean just a look of questioning you have your answer of it being physical. Her primary concern is you, her job and OM should not be relevant if she wants you to feel safe.
> 
> Good luck to you Francesco, and God bless.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Must say that she has been looking for other office's to transfer, without me telling her. A couple of day's ago she said to me that they were looking for personal in another building on the opposite side were she works now.... my answer was: so what are you waiting for? She looked surprised and said that she will check it out.


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## Francesco

I am at work, but it's a slow day..... think that i will read around and post something for others.... just to change subject.


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## drifting on

Francesco

I am going to say this one comment and then retreat as you are under enough stress with your parents health concerns. I certainly am not trying to add anymore stress to what you already have. Your wife looking surprised means that she doesn't understand fully how this has affected you. Her remorse is not that deep if she thought it would be fine to continue as she has at work with the OM. This also tells you the contact is most likely still work and personal as she doesn't see it as a boundary crossed. She still believes in her mind that it was innocent. That is highly dangerous in that she will continue to speak to the OM about personal issues. Sorry for any stress I added, but I went through this with my WW.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

What does your friend think? No one ever saw them together again?

Have you checked lately yourself to see what she does at lunch?


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## bandit.45

> the problem is that i seemed changed.


Your love for her is dying. She is getting ready to be friend-zoned.


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## Yeswecan

Francesco said:


> I guess the first part is correct. I'm working on myself to get better.
> Yes, she see's me different, at first thought it was for my parents, but when i didn't do the usual with her she realized that i had back thought's of what had happened. She is alway's nice and understanding, gives me a break with the housework and kids and try's to talk often.
> 
> Don't know if she continues to have lunch with OM, but she call's me every day on her break. And she knows that i better not see him around..... especially in this period of my life


You have set your boundaries and that is good. Now, do your best to keep your W first. It is very very hard with parents who need care. I have been there with my parents. My W with her parents. We now only have each other. However, our support for one another assured that we can endure much and count on each other.


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## PBDad

Now, Communication is important with your relationship. More then ever.

Calmly, tell her what and how you felt about her activities - (activities and behaviors that she knows you know) and how it has impacted your life and feelings towards her. She needs to understand how dangerous her behavior became over time. You saw it all as betrayal. As bad as if she actually was seduced by OM.

Worst case, you stopped it in time from developing (by OM).

Best case, well, there seems to be none here - just better than worst case.

Tell her no more lunches with Mr. wonderful. No outings or ever alone with him. Perhaps, include - "that is, if she wants to stay married." That depends on you both and the dynamics only you know.

You'll learn to open your heart to her again. It depends on her too.


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## Decorum

Francesco said:


> Don't know if she continues to have lunch with OM, but she call's me every day on her break.



Thank you for the update Francesco and your repy to my pm.

Francesco we are worlds apart on how w approach things I think. I am older than you and in a different culture. The young people I am familiar with say 20 -30 yrs old approace opposite sex frineds differently then I ever would. so with that in mind.

I dont understand how you cannot know if she is eating lunch with the OM. Why would you not talk about this and establish some understanding? I dont mean to be push or harsh but I just dont get it.

I know you dont want to seem insecure or controling but considering what you have done so far simpy asking for some understanding and agreement seems fairly tame to me.

You feel some lines were crossed and you would never feel comfortable wuth this person being in a close relationship with you wife, at least that is what I would say.

So if you dont mind I will just leave my quandry here for you to consider.

I am glad things have setteled down with your parents health, it sounds to be a very difficult time for you.

Listen many people change as their parents go through these things and even pass away. Many wifes become discontent at the death of a parent and become vulnerable to affairs.

It changes you, you feel and ask questions about life you have not taken time for before. Sure some of it may be because of the situation with OM, but try to discern if some of it is this as well. The emotional price of helping aling parents can leave you feeling drained and empty for a while.

Be honest with you wife if this makes you more distracted and thoughfull about things, but reassure her that you realize how improtant the people in your life are to you and how you want to treat them right while you can.

You have sooo much going on you must realize that it will be a while before anything feels the same long enough for you to recognize, say a year or more.

Well I do wish you well, take care of what you have, treasure it.

Take care!


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## Chaparral

I hope and am praying things get better for you, your wife, and all your family. I'm worried you don't know if she's still having lunch with him. It almost sounds like you have been so hurt by her behavior that you no longer care.

Has she done anything to make you believe she's still in love with you?


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## turnera

Chaparral said:


> I hope and am praying things get better for you, your wife, and all your family. *I'm worried you don't know if she's still having lunch with him. * It almost sounds like you have been so hurt by her behavior that you no longer care.
> 
> Has she done anything to make you believe she's still in love with you?


Are you really communicating with her now? About EVERYTHING?


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## PBDad

Hi Francesco

About your parents - about my father -

Mine has visited the ER several times in the past year. Each time, he's pulled through. Things are shifting worse over time. This week, he's back in. Now in ICU.

He's given verbal and written notice Do Not Resuscitate if his heart stops. He is at peace with himself and is prepared. That preparation has prepared the entire family.

Death is part of the celebration of life. He is in good hands. Greater hands than any man's.

I hope he pulls through this time too. We have not talked about all the things we need to talk about. Even over a lifetime... Never enough time.

Peace, my friend.


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## Francesco

Thank's to everyone! Some posts actually put some tears in my eye's as i was reading.... 

My parents are one of the pillars of my life.... 

To clear some points, the surprize she had about changing department was more like "REALLY?" as if she finally realized that it is a must. In fact she already started the paperwork to be transferred. It will take a couple of weeks, but i can handle the timing.

TURNERA... correct me if I'm wrong, but i think you got the impression that i am some kind of abuser, or to much of an alpha guy. I communicate fairly well with my wife, maybe (after more then 20 years together) my mistake has been taking her for granted. Maybe i gave her to much freedom and less attentions for example saying how beautiful she is..... i don't know.... But one thing is sure, I have NEVER controlled her doing nor claimed rules of oppression.. Remember... she was grown up in a very Conservative family when i meet her, and I was the one who pushed for her independence.


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## Francesco

Chaparral said:


> I hope and am praying things get better for you, your wife, and all your family. I'm worried you don't know if she's still having lunch with him. It almost sounds like you have been so hurt by her behavior that you no longer care.
> 
> Has she done anything to make you believe she's still in love with you?



I'm just a little numb.
Yes she has done many things.... has a new doctor, is about to change her service department and has eased my daily family work. She embraces me every evening and our kids enjoy joining us.


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## drifting on

Francesco,

First and foremost prayers to you and your loved ones that all are either recovering or health is vastly improving. Your health and your families is most important. Continued prayers for you and your family.

Can I ask if you if your wife really understands how wrong it is to withhold important medical information from you? Why she did not have your back at the doctors office? Even if she is not confrontational, watching that doctor disrespect you and staying silent was a big show of disrespect your wife had for you. What was her answer to this? What was her answer to the hand holding? Does she see that as inappropriate? How could she possibly not think working with the OM is wrong? Does she think she was wrong? How would she feel if the situation were reversed? 

Just some questions I would need immediate answers too if I were in your shoes. Also I will add that my WW offered to quit her job, I was a fool thinking I could handle them working together. Be careful that resentment doesn't build if she doesn't transfer soon enough. I can only tell you that the resentment builds quickly and becomes a huge problem. Best of luck to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Francesco said:


> TURNERA... correct me if I'm wrong, but i think you got the impression that i am some kind of abuser, or to much of an alpha guy. I communicate fairly well with my wife, maybe (after more then 20 years together) my mistake has been taking her for granted. Maybe i gave her to much freedom and less attentions for example saying how beautiful she is..... i don't know.... But one thing is sure, I have NEVER controlled her doing nor claimed rules of oppression.. Remember... she was grown up in a very Conservative family when i meet her, and I was the one who pushed for her independence.


No, that's not at all what I meant. I just meant that the happiest marriages are when the two of you talk about EVERYTHING. Every thought you have, every thing you want, every thing you don't like, every concern you have...you share it with each other. It just sounds like a lot of the issues you are having are because you two aren't really communicating that much. If you were true best friends and trusted each other, you'd have told her straightaway that you were concerned and asked her about it. And now, instead of talking to each other about it, you're just sitting there guessing, when you could be bringing it up to her.

And the #1 way marriages start failing is that the two people stop communicating like that, and start kind of becoming enemies instead of allies, if that makes sense. You stop being on the same team.

So communicate, communicate, communicate!


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## Yeswecan

Francesco, I hope good health for your folks. In the coming years both of you will need to be strong for each other. The best foundation for that is a strong marriage. You have recognized that priority #1 in your life is your W. Together you can accomplish many things. There is no doubt in my mind you will witness a reinvigorated marriage.


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