# Desire....how do you know?



## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

SO this may have been asked before....but hoping there may be those who can suggest.

HOW ...does an HD actually know/discover if their LD spouse is simply not into sex...or not into them?

I have been getting "duty sex" in my opinion and as nice as that might sound versus ...a sexless marriage.
It is REALLY not. 

So..now I just really want to know. 
In the absence of a genuine dialog - which is very hard to get with my wife...is there any way I can tell?

Thank you in advance for your thoughts ...


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Although I haven't experienced this, I suspect the knowing comes from having sex infrequently or not at all.


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## danger_mouse (Apr 21, 2014)

If you are getting some and its not enough, try pushing the boundaries, massages and such, sex acts that have not been attempted and going outside the box with getting each other worked up.

I write sexy stories in SMS for my W, it gets her ready for the night as she has the day to read them and re-read them, think about them and envisage what that night might entail. It can be something like pulling up in a secluded car park and making out and getting dirty in the car, touching intimate parts whilst driving or at the movies.

Try to add diversity and adventure into your relationship, you'll regret it if you don't.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

I don't think there's any way to tell for sure other than trust your gut, which usually isn't working properly during the infatuation phase. Its there in your gut telling you something is off, but you're not paying attention and ignore it.

Then, after the bait and switch, 'change of life', kids coming, or just plain boredom of relationship, its too late


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Usually when they have an affair things become clear.


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## AlphaMale74 (Oct 15, 2014)

Women generally need an emotional connection outside the bedroom for sex to be meaningful to them. If her emotional reserves aren't full, then sex will be just a chore for her. Using the three T's helps: talk, touch (non-sexual), and give it time.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

Have you been real disappointed in the frequency of the sex and had a talk with her about it maybe mentioning that you can't stay in a marriage like this? I have heard that duty sex can occur after that kind of talk because she doesn't want the marriage to end. I'm not sure how you can tell if she isn't into sex or into you. Either way it will be difficult to change her attitude so you aren't getting duty sex.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Interesting Happily married.

Had a version of that talk. 

I wonder how then to get the passion or desire or into each other back.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Not into sex or not into you. This is a red herring. The real question is does it matter? The result is the same. Unacceptable.


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## Mr B (Feb 6, 2009)

nightmoves8 said:


> SO this may have been asked before....but hoping there may be those who can suggest.
> 
> HOW ...does an HD actually know/discover if their LD spouse is simply not into sex...or not into them?
> 
> ...


Depends on what sex you are. If you are an HD female and your male partner lacks sexual desire for you it is pretty simple to tell. Either he can't ejaculate with you or, more likely he can't get an erection. When it's the guy who doesn't have desire it's impossible to have intercourse. Even erection pills don't work unless there is some sexual desire on his part.

A woman giving duty sex is a little harder to pinpoint. There may be a general lack of enthusiasm, she may not be able to lubricate but could always use store bought lube to overcome that. I think most men can just tell if a woman is giving him mercy sex. But some woman are very good actresses in the bedroom so you can never be 100% sure.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Working on ME - 

Well, I understand where you are coming from. But I think it does matter to me.
If she is wrestling with issues from within (i.e body image, FOO issues, prior abuse, etc..) then I feel obliged to work through those issues with her.

If it is about her not being into me. Then I would rather know that and end it. The pain of having lost her want for me, her desire for me, would be to great to want to encounter any longer.

Does that makes sense?


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

This is an easy one to answer..
When you spouse refuses to give you head (ever), calls you a sex maniac for wanting sex more than once a month, making excuses not to have sex when you are desperate for it, saying things like 'why should I do something I don't like doing'...

All these are really quite clear indications. If you miss them you're a twonk.

Askari is the biggest twonk of them all.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

askari said:


> This is an easy one to answer..
> When you spouse refuses to give you head (ever), calls you a sex maniac for wanting sex more than once a month, making excuses not to have sex when you are desperate for it, saying things like 'why should I do something I don't like doing'...
> 
> All these are really quite clear indications. If you miss them you're a twonk.
> ...


ah, ah.... this! Actually, I shouldn't be laughing, really...


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

_His Needs, Her Needs _by Willard Harley may be helpful to you in pinpointing what emotional needs each of you has and which ones aren't being met within the marriage currently. There's a chance that if she used to be passionate with you but isn't anymore, that there's some issue in the relationship that is creating the problem. Most women need emotional connection to really want to have sex with a man. If that connection is missing, desire can evaporate even if willingness (duty sex) continues.


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

*Re: Desire....how do you knouw?*

Askari, In 2011 it became quite clear that I was a large twonk. Three years later and I still labor to shed the label.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Rowan - question.
My wife seems to have a both an LD situation, and perhaps issues surrounding sex in general (i.e. prior to me), AND it would seem she also sets a VERY high bar for emotional connection boxed to be checked.
In that, I mean, there needs to be almost a perfection or a completely not real world scenario.

Given all that ....do yo know if there is any way to "re-win" back the emotional connection?


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

I read threads like yours and I think the only real answer is that she get honest with herself and honest with you. I realize you and so many folks on the forum can't get their partners to do that - I couldn't get my partner to do that either - and in the end the last straw is counselling. And if that doesn't work...divorce. 

Is there anyone on TAM who has overcome their partner's LD? Duty sex? Anyone who has been able to guess at what their partner needed in terms of emotional connection, given it to them, and then was able to "fix" things? I haven't read any. 

The answer to this is that she get honest with you. And in order for her to feel safe doing that, you need to make her feel safe. Preface your question by saying "I need to ask you an important question and it's important to me that I get an honest answer from you, no matter what. Is now a good time to ask, or is there a better time?" If she says now is not a good time, you then gently get her to narrow down a time. When you get to that time you say "I promise that whatever you answer, I will accept it. Ready?" And when she says "yes" you ask "Is your lack of interest in sex a general lack of interest or is it because you aren't attracted to me?"

And you need to prepare yourself to really accept it in the moment. If you react negatively - get visibly angry or upset - that's what she's afraid of, so you need to get yourself in an emotional place where you won't react that way.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Usually, there's no good way to tell what's behind an LD's attitude, unless there's clear contempt and disregard for you.

Otherwise, kick them out and observe their behavior for the next few years, and you may find out. They may become highly sexual as they attempt to land another sucker, but is it sustained? Obviously, this isn't a practical approach to answering the question!

With all the advice and occasional success story here, if you can't cause positive changes in a year of trying, you should know the answer and know what you should do in your particular circumstances.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

firebelly1 said:


> Is there anyone on TAM who has overcome their partner's LD? Duty sex? Anyone who has been able to guess at what their partner needed in terms of emotional connection, given it to them, and then was able to "fix" things? I haven't read any.



TommyR has...


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

"Usually, there's no good way to tell what's behind an LD's attitude, unless there's clear contempt and disregard for you."

Good point M b H; sometimes the LD wife or husband just doesn't know why themselves


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> TommyR has...


Any links to his story?


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## Big Dude (Feb 24, 2013)

nightmoves8 said:


> Working on ME -
> 
> Well, I understand where you are coming from. But I think it does matter to me.
> If she is wrestling with issues from within (i.e body image, FOO issues, prior abuse, etc..) then I feel obliged to work through those issues with her.
> ...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

firebelly1 said:


> Any links to his story?


He didn't post a thread... he replies to other people's. He claims he managed to turn around his marriage with his LD wife...

Search "tommyr"...


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

nightmoves8 said:


> Rowan - question.
> My wife seems to have a both an LD situation, and perhaps issues surrounding sex in general (i.e. prior to me), AND it would seem she also sets a VERY high bar for emotional connection boxed to be checked.
> In that, I mean, there needs to be almost a perfection or a completely not real world scenario.
> 
> Given all that ....do yo know if there is any way to "re-win" back the emotional connection?


If she has issues with sex in general, I would think that would be a pretty clear indication that her LD is not about you, but about sex. That's something only she can fix. If the issues are in the relationship, then working on the relationship will help. If the issues are within her, then only her working on herself will help.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

nightmoves8 said:


> Rowan - question.
> My wife seems to have a both an LD situation, and perhaps issues surrounding sex in general (i.e. prior to me), AND it would seem she also sets a VERY high bar for emotional connection boxed to be checked.
> In that, I mean, there needs to be almost a perfection or a completely not real world scenario.
> 
> Given all that ....do yo know if there is any way to "re-win" back the emotional connection?


You cannot rewin an emotional connection with an untreated BPD wife. That's like expecting your alcoholic to be content with a glass of wine at dinner. It's impossible; 1 glass is not enough and 2 glasses are too many.

Her ability to connect emotionally to anyone is completely dependent on her perception in any given moment and not grounded in reality.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Anon- 
Thank you.

Your post was like a slash of cold water in the face.
(or a palm slap to the forehead)

I guess there are times I forget all I have learned about BPD.
I am almost embarrassed that you were able to remember the confound - and I was not.

I think that in certain areas - it becomes almost uber difficult when those areas are so personal. The hit so deep - that the frontal lobe almost forgets the entire picture.

I think a lot of what the pwBPD does...is quickly...and forcefully...attacks the spouse so as to not even look inward or showcase the many issues that may indeed be at play.

I am working VERY hard at learning how to make the r/s work given the BPD.
I really think that she has many more issues than she is sharing. She also claims she needs LOTS of emotional connection to have sex. It stings a bit. As I would say that we do.
But...your post remided me of something....generally BPD'rs do NOT want true intimacy, vulnerability, honesty, etc....
SO perhaps....if it is not there...this then ....is about her.
Thanks Anon


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

nightmoves8 said:


> generally BPD'rs do NOT want true intimacy, vulnerability, honesty, etc....


Any person with mental problems will be mainly focussed on themselves. This is only natural. It's that little (or big) extra they have to manage before they can deal with "normal" stuff.

Is your wife having treatment for her condition? Can't remember.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

nightmoves8 said:


> so perhaps....if it is not there...this then ....is about her.
> Thanks anon


bingo!


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## Star (Dec 6, 2009)

nightmoves8 said:


> SO this may have been asked before....but hoping there may be those who can suggest.
> 
> HOW ...does an HD actually know/discover if their LD spouse is simply not into sex...or not into them?
> 
> ...


Only one way to find out and that is to ask her regardless of how hard it is to talk to her, just lay the cards out on the table and she what she says, otherwise you'll drive yourself nuts looking for clues and trying to draw your own conclusions.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Bad Santa -

Tremendous post. Really tho0ught provoking.
AS someone who had spent countless hours examining the ship to try and find clues or reasons why I keep winding up in FAR less than desirable ports....you really go me to thinking.

As Captain....I need to do all I an to GET the ship to a better port.

Maybe - as I think you were stating....it might then be more Obvious IF the crew wanted to be there at all....


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## seahorse (Apr 10, 2010)

Awesome post, and even better suggestion! The truth really will set you free. It gives you certainty on whether to fix things or declare a loss before decades of life pass and youth is spent.

-seahorse




firebelly1 said:


> I read threads like yours and I think the only real answer is that she get honest with herself and honest with you. I realize you and so many folks on the forum can't get their partners to do that - I couldn't get my partner to do that either - and in the end the last straw is counselling. And if that doesn't work...divorce.
> 
> Is there anyone on TAM who has overcome their partner's LD? Duty sex? Anyone who has been able to guess at what their partner needed in terms of emotional connection, given it to them, and then was able to "fix" things? I haven't read any.
> 
> ...


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> He didn't post a thread... he replies to other people's. He claims he managed to turn around his marriage with his LD wife...
> 
> Search "tommyr"...


True. My marriage was quite sexless back in 2007 and it took a year or so to turn around. But I can now report we have a mutually satisfying sexlife 2x per week ever since then. Although she is still LD, trust me it is *not* just duty sex. Oh sure there are rare days that she's not totally "into it" just like I'm sure there are such days for any HD. Search my threads, I've shared alot of my story here.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Night,

If you don't mind, can you describe what you mean by duty sex.

I'll begin by framing what I consider to be toxic duty sex:

1. Any sort of hurry up and get it over with vibe 
Or
2. Unwilling to kiss you 
Or
3. A clear message from your partner that they don't really want to - delivered verbally or non verbally 
Or
4. Lack of engagement on their part - they aren't touching you, they are simply letting you touch them

I believe that any of those things means that your partner really doesn't want to connect. 

That said: 
If your partner wants to feel close to you, but simply starts out in neutral and doesn't get as turned on as quickly or as intensely as you, but is clearly engaged. That's ok with me. 





nightmoves8 said:


> SO this may have been asked before....but hoping there may be those who can suggest.
> 
> HOW ...does an HD actually know/discover if their LD spouse is simply not into sex...or not into them?
> 
> ...


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

So - I hate to even read it...but yes...you could consider by your criteria that this is toxic ....

However...once we DO start....she seems to get pretty into it.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

firebelly1 said:


> I read threads like yours and I think the only real answer is that she get honest with herself and honest with you. I realize you and so many folks on the forum can't get their partners to do that - I couldn't get my partner to do that either - and in the end the last straw is counselling. And if that doesn't work...divorce.
> 
> Is there anyone on TAM who has overcome their partner's LD? Duty sex? Anyone who has been able to guess at what their partner needed in terms of emotional connection, given it to them, and then was able to "fix" things? I haven't read any.
> 
> ...



Night-

I struggled with this as well... I pushed the envelope, upped the sex, upped the romance, done everything to provide for her needs and nothing really helped....I still didn't know if it was her or me...

I asked the question in many different ways and she revealed that she saw me as a friend and companion. She sees me as a great father and provider. She revealed she doesn't have that romantic love for me...At the same time, she said she never had romantic desire for anybody ever. She never thinks about sex or desires it with anybody....

Then she said if it's sex I wanted, she will do that for me if it will keep me from divorcing....She also said I could outsource sex if I wanted to. Just let her know...STD's and all. Then i think she would have a excuse to say no.

Now it becomes my issue.... Not hers


By the way, we haven't had sex in over a month...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Night,

How does she act afterwards? 
- happy
- affectionate
- reserved
- cold






nightmoves8 said:


> So - I hate to even read it...but yes...you could consider by your criteria that this is toxic ....
> 
> However...once we DO start....she seems to get pretty into it.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Reserved... and while not really cold....just somewhat shut down.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

LOL...maybe its the fact that you are SANTA....

If I played even easy to get - won't add to my success....


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

badsanta said:


> OK Night,
> 
> Now that you have had a chance to ponder about things, it is time to take action. Your very first step on getting your wife all revved up will be to play hard to get in the bedroom. Once you get that all figured out, please reply and give me some instructions because my wife tells me that I am the worlds worst at playing hard to get! I really could use some help in this department!?
> 
> ...


doesn't work... it would be a nice present, though... 

I've decided to go completely sexless... it's much better. No more chasing around or rejections... not feeling hurt and depressed. I told her. She wasn't pleased, but there you go...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

*Re: Re: Desire....how do you know?*



In Absentia said:


> TommyR has...


I managed to turn it around. It took about 8 months, and it was mostly my fault for getting us there to begin with.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

FarSide - 
Do tell - HOW?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

My wife and I never had a frequent sex life except when dating. After that was the slow decline.

I was a codependent, needy nice guy, had a problem with porn and alcohol, had problems telling her no on things, and resentment on both sides was ugly. I was not someone who was remotely attractive to my wife. How can a wife respect someone who does not respect themself? But it had happened so gradually that those nasty habits went from occasional to prevalent.

I started by improving myself. I read NNMNG, MMSLP and Hold On To Your N.U.T.s. I started a thread and took advice from people on the day to day interactions. 

I learned how to tell her no. I learned how to communicate my needs while insisting that she put effort into my needs. I got myself back in shape. I put down porn and alcohol. I started to romance my wife again. 

It was not easy, and it got worse before it got better.

I would start by reading MEM11363 ' S thermostat thread. Then read Hold On To Your N.U.T.s. That book is a simple book that intros NNMNG and MMSLP very nicely. Then read HNHN, together if possible. Consider this: for right now, it is less about her willingness to have sex and more about her lack of willingness to meet your needs. I would also read Sinnister ' s thread "Finally Read MMSLP". He is still fighting it, but the advice he has gotten in that thread is invaluable.

Another thing you could do is read my thread "Sh!t Test". But read it for the advice, not for my actions necessarily. I kinda did it in a screwed up order in that I took it for about 18 months, then spoke up and STARTED with an ultimatum. That should be your last resort because it can poison the well.

Lastly, keep posting. I will subscribe and give pointers. And the "divorce her" crowd will start to sound pretty appealing, but stay the course and give it a chance to work.

ETA: the single most powerful thing we did was something we still do nightly. We take a moment, when we first lay in bed, and take turns listing the things that we are thankful for from each other. This can be acts of service, etc, but I really enjoy it when I see my wife make progress in an area that is challenging our relationship. This encourages her to be better. Then after that, we pray together with me leading. This is symbolically important in that she is acknowledging my role as the leader in our family. It is also helpful because it is very dificult to remain angry at someone you just joined with in humbling yourself before God. When I pray for us, I pray for healing, improvement, and for us to grow closer together.

If you are not spiritual, at least do the thanks every night. But man is the praying powerful stuff.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Clear your inbox, nightmoves.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> And the "divorce her" crowd will start to sound pretty appealing, but stay the course and give it a chance to work.
> 
> ETA: the single most powerful thing we did was something we still do nightly. We take a moment, when we first lay in bed, and take turns listing the things that we are thankful for from each other. This can be acts of service, etc, but I really enjoy it when I see my wife make progress in an area that is challenging our relationship. This encourages her to be better. Then after that, we pray together with me leading. This is symbolically important in that she is acknowledging my role as the leader in our family. It is also helpful because it is very dificult to remain angry at someone you just joined with in humbling yourself before God. When I pray for us, I pray for healing, improvement, and for us to grow closer together.
> 
> If you are not spiritual, at least do the thanks every night. But man is the praying powerful stuff.


That is beautiful, farsidejunky. I think humility (deep honesty, no defensiveness) in any person inspires trust. 

And I totally agree with using discernment regarding the Divorce first, Ask questions later school of thought.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Jld....
Your quote really struck me.
Do you think that is true ( well ..admittedly perhaps a little bit of a stupid question as you have chosen to place it in your signature)
Well..let me ask this...can you elaborate on what that means- real world - to you?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

nightmoves8 said:


> Jld....
> Your quote really struck me.
> Do you think that is true ( well ..admittedly perhaps a little bit of a stupid question as you have chosen to place it in your signature)
> Well..let me ask this...can you elaborate on what that means- real world - to you?


Hi, night moves. Thank you for asking. No one ever has. 

I am an emotional woman. I get upset easily. But when I do, my husband does not (or rarely) get upset back. He does not leave the room. 

He is patient with me. He speaks calmly (usually ) and practices active listening with me (repeats my words back to me, or paraphrases, or asks an open ended question). 

The way he deals with my anger (really just hurt or fear) makes me feel safe with him. I know I can trust him. Nothing I say or do is going to knock him over. He is strong in himself, and so he can carry me, too. 

WOTSM is a wonderful book, btw. Highly recommend it.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

nightmoves... I think you - like me - tend to forget our wives' condition... that's where you should start from... don't know if she is taking meds, but without her condition under control, you have little chance of succeeding... you can lead whatever you like, but if you end up banging your head against the wall all the time, you'll soon give up...


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

A mantra I keep close at hand as I must be in a similar boat.



> Her emotions are a hurricane, her soul a saboteur. Think of yourself as a bulwark against her tempest. When she grasps for a pillar to steady herself against the whipping winds or yearns for an authority figure to foil her worst instincts, it is you who has to be there…strong, solid, unshakeable and immoveable.


WOTSM is for me a reference book which never gets put away.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Nightmoves:

Has your wife been formally diagnosed with BPD? And not by the TAM community, or you, but by a professional?

I was absolutely convinced my wife had BPD. She is/was not. She was beyond frustrated because I was a poor excuse for a man combined with her being codependent. It makes for a nasty combination.

If she has a formal diagnosis, that changes everything. And I am not suggesting she is not, but it sure is easy to label BPD without getting into the weeds to take a closer look at what you are not doing.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> nightmoves... I think you - like me - tend to forget our wives' condition... that's where you should start from... don't know if she is taking meds, but without her condition under control, you have little chance of succeeding... you can lead whatever you like, but if you end up banging your head against the wall all the time, you'll soon give up...



Pretty much. Or you will crank up the indifference meter to such a level that desire is the least of your concerns.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

john117 said:


> Pretty much. Or you will crank up the indifference meter to such a level that desire is the least of your concerns.


yep...


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