# Need Advise. Mindspun2



## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

I had originally posted this under user name Mindspun. I re-registered after log in difficulties. Thanks for all the previous responses. 


I'm in need of advise. My wife and I will be together 25 years this August. We've had normal short bumpy roads but quickly always resolve and fix them. People throughout our years together, have always said we are perfect and so happy together. 

So here it is. Her mom fell on hard financial times after her husband passed. Unable to sustain her cost of living, my wife came to me and asked if she could live with us for "2-2 1/2". Saying it would probably take that long for here to pay off her credit card and save enough money for 1st months rent and security. I said of course.

Well at around the 2 1/2 year mark I asked my wife how it was coming along with her CC and savings. She said she has not saved much money and her card has about $4,000 on it (My wife and her siblings had decided in the beginning to charge her mother rent. I told her that is totally up to her and I'd except whatever they come up with). After hearing her deep financial burden I told my wife to deduct $100 from rent and I would pay her private phone and HBO bill. That was 1 year 9 months ago.

Around a year and a half ago I was becoming very upset with her mothers lack of trivial things. She never grew up on a septic or well system so I sat everyone down at the table and we discussed the do's and don'ts of items being flushed or bleach in the drains. Her Mother had continued to not only keep putting paper towels and Kleenex down the toilet but started stock piling 3 rolls of paper towels on the back of the toilet. Then she'd change it to 2 boxes of Kleenex on the toilet, another box 7' away on a bureu right outsde the bathroom and another box on her night stand just another 4' away. I felt she was doing this deliberately. She has still after all these years not stopped. For the record I aways went thru my wife with any trivial issue I had.

Now and again through the years our teenage daughter would talk very disrespectful to her grandmother and I would instantly send her to her room and reprimand her. As time went by our daughter came to us and said we were nit being fair to her. That we punish her without hearing her out. We always took grandmas' side no matter what. She was right. So I left work early one day and caught them in the middle of an all out screaming match. Neither knowing I was there, I hid and listened to heart it myself. I heard both of them screaming at eachother with total disrespect and I was shocked. I finally stepped out and asked "what is going on". They both went in their own rooms. I walk away from that thinking 1- what was so bad that 2 family memebers chose to talk to eachother this way and 2 although they were both acting like 13 year olds, there was only 1 13 year old in the argument. The 2 of them became oil and water.

The grandma would report back to her other 2 kids behind all our backs for years. Then this past Novemebr my wife came home from picking up her mother who had been staying at her sons house for a week. My wife asked me to our room where I found her in tears. She said her mother, brother and sister had told her that her mother says that my wife and I have been cold and distant to her from day 1. She then gave me a list of things her mother said about me which I had to wright down.

In August I had a double cervical fusion and a SS implant installed on a 3rd level my neck. I was heavily medicated 24 hours a day and my family was taking turns waking me up sometimes an hour aprt to give me another kind of pill. So in the state I was in I had to wright things down to remember them. 

I asked my wife if I could talk to her mom about the list and she said yes. The next day we did. Her mom and I spoke for 2 hours. 1 item was that I picked on her over the TP and PT and I didn't want her to lean her dirty wet mop on the bathroom wall. She said, come on whats the big deal. You hardly use that bathroom. I said. I can't believe after all the years of explaining the damage it can cause you still do it . Whats so difficult to understand? Then she said I was abusive and her other 2 kids say the same thing . I said can I ask them and she said yes. I called them individually and they both deny ever saying anything about me. The one child said her mother told her I was abusive by picking on her all the time. I said this is ridiculous. Listen to what this whole argument is about. Its immature nonsense.

As time went on she continued with the mop. She did stop putting the TP and PT in the bathroom but low and behold we had clog. I called a plumber out and they found the septic pipe had cracked where it exits the house. Guess what they were pulling out of the pipe. Paper towels. They did say the towels could not have broken the pipe but they did clogg the pipe and don't I know not to put certain things ina septic system. 

As time went on I reached out to all 3 of her kids and spoke with her too, to try and resolve any issues. I just recently found out they have been at it again blaming me for he unhappiness. My wife has said my mother is weak and unhappy and likes to pull on her sisters heart strings to get her to feel bad and help her. Instead she was making everyone angry at me. And at my weakest time after a serious surgery that had me heavily medicated and irrational. 

To this day I have become dependent on a drug called Tramadol. I have sought help from my doctors and am on a plan. Today I received another epidural injection in my neck to help get off the meds. A few weeks ago my wife, her mother and myself were downstairs. I was on my hands and knees cleaning the floor and her mother was poking me in the side and back with a wrapping paper tube trying to get me to talk politics with her. It is very well known she and I disagree on politics especially the issue she wanted to discuss. She had a few drinks in her and it was obvious she was looking to fight. I looked up at my wife with lifted eyebrows as to ask for help and she tried. Her mom said no, I wont stop saying I want him to answer my question. All while prodding me with the tube. I got up and walked away.

Then on Jan 28 she was at it again when it was just she and I. I lost my cool and called her an alcoholic and to put down the wine while we talk. She said no. I'm not an alcoholic I'm just weak and your mean to me. I told her about the time I walked in on her argument with my daughter. She says that never happened. You're a liar. I told her at least 3 other incidents and her go to answer is always, no you're a liar. Finally I asked her if we could end the argument on a good note because I had to leave and did not want to walk away from each other upset. She agreed and we did. 

That night I felt I owed my wife an apology for insulting her mother. My wife had the 3 of us sit and talk again. Everything was going good until the part where I said she was drinking and kept yelling at me calling me a liar when I tried to give her examples of her behavior. The grandmother looked calmly in my wifes eyes and said: I don't know where he got that from. That never happened. Luckily one of those items included my wife who verified it did. 

The the next day my wife and I called her sister so I can apologize to her for my insults. She went on the defense immediately and stated her mother never had this white trash, Maury Paulvich, Jerry Springer BS in her life before now. Implying I brought this garbage here. The next day I tried to call her son. The convo started calm and respectful and then blam. He started talking over me saying my mother says you said she doesn't deserve her cats. I was in a twilight zone. I said what are you talking about. Your mother creates things in her head and then gets mad at me as if I did it. Then he started talking with long dragged out words and sentences over me saying I'll fix yr mes. I'm here now to fix yours and my sisters mess. You can say whatever you want I don't believe you. I hung up on him. It was immature and ridiculous.

I then got so mad I texted my wife and said tell your brother to pick her up tonight. Accidenatlly I sent him that text and not my wife. So I followed it up noting I was aware what I did and now I cc'd all 3 siblings the same text. In it I told the brother to add, remove or alter anything I wrote that you disagree with or did not happen. He did not change a thing. That evening my wife came home fuming. We argued all night. 

On Jan 31 I took my mothers advise to be the man, step up to the plate, take all the blame and apologize. She said it's not fair to your wife. She's in the middle and may resent you down the line. She said do it to save your family. So I did. No one responded.

A few days later I reached out to her mother again via a text to all 3 siblings asking them to tell her I'd like to apologize to her and to let me know what day and time worked for her. The sister responded that she relayed my text and ner mothers response was: now is not a good time. I have my own problems to work out. About a week or so ago I reached out to the sister and pologized to her and she accepted my apology. 

Now my wife is saying she cant live like this anymore. I asked her what she meant and crying, she said she can't live like this knowng her family will never invite her husband to another holiday or birthday party. I said are talking divorce. She said I just know I cant live like this whatever that means. The next day I tried to approach her again and assure her I was making efforts to reach out and make amends with everyone but I can only do that if they accept to talk, which they have not. 

My wife goes back and forth sending mixed signals. There's days of normalcy between us with pleant talking, watching shows together, shopping together, talking about fixing up around the house, to again last night saying she cant do it anymore. I've asked her at least 4 times and the latest last night, where I said: all I'm asking is that you weigh what happened with fair eyes and 2, verbally say you're willing to commit to fixing our marriage. In the past her response was: I can not commit to our marriage until I fix myself first.

Last night I asked her is it so hard to say both. I'm not asking you to put us in front of you. I just need to hear you say our marriage has meant something the last 25 years by saying, I will commit to our marriage. I said by your not willing to just say that kills me. I told her: by not being able to say that today, over 1 1/2 months after your mom has left, gives me the notion theres a 90 to 95% no chance you want to fix it. She looked at me with a blank stare and said nothing. 

I am now for the 3rd time in over a month and a half back on the couch. The crazy thing is, she'll still come to me and ask me to sleep in our bed but wont commit to our marriage. My head is spun and I'm coming undone. Yesterday before she cam home (and argued), I had researched flowers and their meanings. I ordered a beautiful custom specific bouquet about my thoughts of love and devotion for her. Then she dropped the I wont commit bomb again. Call me crazy but I decided to still give her the bouquet tonight but I wrote a letter thanking her for the last 25 years, our beautiful kids, our home we designed together, etc. I left a note on the note defining each flower and what it represents to me toward her. This after we already decided yesyerday to sit down with the kids and tell them all. Between this, my surgery, my ever shrinking window of getting back to work to provide for my family (that window closes in July), the daily medicine and top it off with the cervical epidural injection I had today, waiting for tonights family discusaion has my stomach upside down.

I know this is a novel but does anyone have some sound advise? I would really appreciate some help. 

PS. I will attempt to repost under Mindspun2. Thanks again for all your responses. 
PSS. The flowers and note brought her to tears and saying, "This is the first time I feel you understood me since this happened".


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

Need Advise. Update.

I am back off the couch for now. The morning was tough due to medicine. All my mornings are for a few hours but my wife was good. Fingers crossed tonight goes well. I do have another concern though. Last Friday she started counseling to help her manage her feelings. I'm troubled by her only going to single, personal counseling and not couples or marriage counseling, that it won't be as effective. Or may even be more damaging vs the 2 of us working through it together in counseling. Any thoughts??


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

She is a menace to your family.

It's the turn of one of her other children to look after her, now.


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

Yeah. I made her son pick her up after I hung up on him and she stayed with him for about 2 weeks. She now has her own place. They all blame me as if I threw her out on the street with no where to go. 

The kick in the face is, my wife recently told me that 2 days before I had her leave, the MIL called her other daughter saying to "get me the **** out of here. On top of that, the day her son chose to turn a respectful convo into an immature one, he was already on his way up to get her to see the apt they had already found for her. On top of that even, that same morning my wife had texted me asking if I wanted her to call her brother and come get her. 

So 1- she wanted out so bad, 2-my wife, that same morning, asked me if she should have her brother come get her. 3rd- he was already on his way to get her. 4- they all knew I was on serious nerve meds and was irrational. 

Now with all that everyone, hates me for having her leave and my wife has been talking about splitting up because she cant live like this anymore (them not wanting me around). 

We've NEVER had any issues with eachother in the past 25 years so I'm bumbazzled as to where all this animosity and hatred is coming from. It's like being in a bad twilight zone.

I sent another text to the brother yesterday apologizing for losing control and making him come get her and I took full responsibility even though I know the truth. I'm doing it for the sake of my family and the fact I truly love my wife.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

Wow! Your wife's mother and siblings sound like a bad episode of Jerry Springer to me. I hate it for you, but it seems to me that the only one who is being rational is you. All you can do is what you can do. You can't change the other people or the past. You're not totally blameless in all of this, but you've attempted to make amends, which is more than what her family is doing. You're MIL is a very vindictive person, who is obviously suffering from some kind of depression and/or mental illness, and like most families, they'll believe anything she tells them even if it is far from the truth. How old is she? 12?


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

You need to divorce that family. Not sure if your wife would choose you over them, but that dynamic that she is involved in is caustic, dysfunctional and unhealthy.


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

5 days ago I decided to go even further. I texted my wife's brother and asked he share it with his other sister and mother. In the text I took all the responsibility for everything and apologized again. I did it for my wife. I am at the point, I honestly don't believe he has the integrity to do the right thing. If its embarrassment that holds him back, I gave him an out already. Realizing he wont even do what's right for his sister and her kids proves his selfishness. So for the sake of my wife and kids, I chose to take all the blame. They have still not responded. To be fair to the other sister. I called her about a week and a half ago and although angry, she accepted my apology. That's what family does. 

Knowing my wife had initially asked me not to text them again stating they were not ready (2 months later), I felt it right I tell her I texted her brother. This was a few days after I texted him. I forwarded her the text so not to misword anything. She went right into defense mode for them. 

So a few days before Easter, my wife told me that her sister told her they are doing Easter at her house. The sister told my wife the she and the kids are invited but I am not. My wife had said she didn't know what she was going to do. She felt in the middle and either decision she made would be looked at as wrong by someone. 

The morning before Easter I told my wife that at this point we needed to sit down with the kids and tell them more truth of what's going on. She agreed. That evening we sat but for some reason neither of us told the kids the whole truth. I did tell them that Easter was at their aunts house. I told them I was not invited but they were. 

Trying to make things easier for my wife and kids, I told them I was dieing to see the movie, The Revenant and I was going on Easter. I told them to go to their aunts if they wanted. My son (18) said he had to work all day and could not go. My daughter (almost 16) snapped back quickly and said, "Of course I'm going". 

After thinking a while at how quickly and adamant my daughter responded, I had a notion my wife had spoke with her prior to our sit down. It was too quick and prepared with supposedly no information on the subject. Later, I asked my wife if she had and she admitted she did talk to both kids before our family meeting. I'm stunned again. My wife and I agreed but she went behind my back and talked to them before our planned meeting. 

I asked my wife, "How do you think our kids would feel if they read all the texts between your family and me? What do you think they would say if I forwarded the kids everything that was said? My wife replied, "they would be upset with my family". I said exactly and our kids are 16 and 18 not the grown adults your family are suppose to be. Yet you continue to defend and make excuse for them while they break up our family.

Any one have any thoughts on what I should do next? 

Between the beginning of this dumb drama, my wifes refusal to commit to our marriage, my wifes refusal to admit the truth about her family to them or our kids, her brother and mothers denial in any responsibility, all while our immediate family breaks apart, I am now steering toward forwarding all the texts to our kids and accepting fate.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

You've went far and above helping your MIL out. If your wife is worth anything she won't go without you. And I'd make damn sure my kids didn't go and I'd let them in on the circumstances.

They are old enough to know. 

You have put up with to much bullsh!t here and look what it's gotten you. Sleep in your own bed no matter what. Your wife needs to know where her breads buttered. She has her own family to worry about. Her immediate family should come first if it doesn't that tells you who she really is doesn't it.

You bear the responsibility of letting this get out of control. Stand up and protect your family. Lay down some rules for your wife.

This part is all on you. Man up, get this done and don't back off.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Mindspun2 said:


> So a few days before Easter, my wife told me that her sister told her they are doing Easter at her house. The sister told my wife the she and the kids are invited but I am not. My wife had said she didn't know what she was going to do. She felt in the middle and either decision she made would be looked at as wrong by someone.


Doesn't say much for your wife. She is basically saying she's picking her family over you! You got that right?


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Send your kids the texts. Your wife is a back stabber.

The truth is always best.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Quit apologizing for crap that is not your fault! No way in hell would I tolerate that **** in my house. Either she is your wife or not. Leave and cleave....she don't get it. To be treated so disrespectfully in your own home her azz would have been sent to sons house especially after I walked in on argument.

Let your kids read the texts and know how disfunctional her family is. Her own son did not care enough to offer her residence...did he? Either you act like a man and start wearing the britches or continue to let your wife and her family run you over.

Your wife does not give a **** about you. No way in hell would we go any where unless every one is invited. I think your wife made her choice who is more important.

Tell your kids the truth and quit lieing to them. You are not setting a good example for your kids....or your wife. You are in the right, quit kissing everyone's ass and being weak.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Your MIL is a manipulator and your wife...well, that apple didn't fall far from the tree.

Your marriage isn't toast, but dammit dude stop apologizing for stuff that isn't your responsibility. That makes you a chump and a doormat. It makes them respect you even less. 

This is not all on you. They haven't shown you respect either. The b!tch lived in your house for 4 years and this is how you get treated? Oh hell no!

Get a copy of Married Man Sex Life Primer and get to work on yourself, cause you need to man up dude. That doesn't mean screaming louder or fighting dirty with your wife. It means to grow up, to stand up for yourself and not to let her family railroad you.


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

Update. My wife and I have been having better relations. I have been more clearminded since the injection and medicine switch, so that helps.

She says I go for the jugular when I know I'm right. I see it more as I go for the jugular when somone outright lies or does something against me or my family with obvious bad intentions. Then, yes I go for the jugular. 

In this case it involved my wifes family and I held them accountable without a leash. Some around me have thought I should not have been so hard as to ask my MIL to leave in the abrupt manner that I did. That I should have had a longer leash for their mistakes. I on the other hand still feel, their mistakes were egregious and its not a 1 way street. 

I know I made my share of mistakes on how I handled some things. I can see how I had no filter when it came to stating my thoughts (that never works out well). On the other hand I was on nerve pain meds and pain killers 24 hours a day which definitely had a hand in removing that filter. Add to that just finding out the MIL has been making me out to be a monster for 2 1/2 years whithout ever a complaint to me or my wife. Then add my wifes siblings buying into it for so long without mentioning anything. The siblings and I have never had a hint of any negativity toward each other in 25 years. So one would think they would have questioned the complaints or at least mentioned something in the 2 1/2 years of deceit. If not to me than at least my wife, their sister. So yes I got defensive and angry.

So the long and short of where it all stands now is like this. My wife and I have been having clearer more productive conversation about it. She has been more forthcoming and I have been more understanding of her. 

As for her family, I chose not to pursue them anymore. If they can't be honest than they're not worth the argument. If they can, then great. I'll give them a cautious ear. My days of apologizing for things I need not aoologize for are over.

Once a snake bites, it's hard to offer your hand again. 

Thanks for all the feedback.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Sounds like progress.

Keep working on your relationship with your W. You do that and the rest will take care of itself.

Good luck!


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

Thanks Tron. That's the direction we are heading together now. 
PS. I read reviews of the book you suggested and its on order. Thanks.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Mindspun2 said:


> In this case it involved my wifes family and I held them accountable without a leash. Some around me have thought I should not have been so hard as to ask my MIL to leave in the abrupt manner that I did. That I should have had a longer leash for their mistakes. I on the other hand still feel, their mistakes were egregious and its not a 1 way street.


Well, some around you are WRONG. You had every right to tell her to leave in whatever manner you found necessary. She took advantage of both you and your wife, and totally disrespected you in your own home. I am glad that you and your wife are making some progress and hope your kids come to understand as well.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Mindspun had originally written:



> Her mom fell on hard financial times after her husband passed. Unable to sustain her cost of living, my wife came to me and asked if she could live with us for "2-2 1/2". Saying it would probably take that long for here to pay off her credit card and save enough money for 1st months rent and security. I said of course.


I'd love to know how this part worked out. Did your MIL ever pay off her credit card balance? And did she ever try saving enough for her own place.

Or were those things never going to happen?

Keep on truckin' fella!


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Your in-laws are a cluster of manipulation and co- dependence. 

Find your mom a place. Pay for it if you have to.

But she leaves. Label it "disruption to the family."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

Sidney 2718. No she did not. Her other children are now picking up the difference. I had told my wife I was still ok with us paying off the CC after all this happened. I told her that I agreed we would and I keep my word. She said she offered and the siblings and mother did not want it anymore.


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## EVG39 (Jun 4, 2015)

Your wife's behavior in all this was bad, her family's much worse. Having said that my view is that this is one of those things that will likely mend with time as you are certainly are beginning to see with your wife's behavior toward you. My advice to you would to stop apologizing and in fact go no contact with her family. Put the ball in their court. You won't lose much either way they choose. As for your wife, stop badgering her to say she is committed, etc. Sounds like her actions recently are giving you the positive answer you were looking for. Just build on that. Take a deep breath and let time do its work.


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

So here I am over a month and a half since I last posted and 4 1/2 months since the fiasco popped. I find the relationship with my wife and I to be stale at best. I sometimes sleep in another room because I sometimes find it uncomfortable to sleep next to her. I feel she is not the same person she was. This whole thing has really made a mess of us. 
She is still going to counceling for herself every other Friday but never talks about it. I ask how it went and she just answers with a short, "it went good". We don't really talk like we use to and we definitely don't spend time together like we use to. None of this seems to bother her. I have the feeling she's just biding her time. 
She has been in communication with her family and all seems normal with her and them. They still have not reached out or even responded to my texts. That part angers me because I threw myself under the bus for the better of my wife and kids. I took all the blame and still have not gotten a response. My wife says I can't put a timeline on their response. I say this isn't a one way street and as family a response should have been made a long time ago. Not an agreement or an ok, but some kind of response. I said the lack of response shows their not worth waiting for. 
I told her they are nothing to me anymore. I want nothing to do with them and they don't deserve to ever see my kids again. I don't want my kids around people like that. 
She says that's unfair. I told her I've done everything you asked and then a lot more. I sucked it up and threw myself under the bus, for you and our kids. You and your family have put me on hold as if I'm S**t. I'm done with them. You are teaching our kids they can do what they want, even control you and your family. I wont allow it. 
I told her I am going camping alone for a while to get away. She asked for how long and I said I don't know. A few days, maybe a week, I'm not putting a time line on it. 
I'm at the point I just want to let her have the house and everything. I'd just take a few grand to get me going and just take off and start new somewhere else, far away. My son is about to leave for college but my daughter has 2 more years of high school after this year, so she is holding me back. 
My wife has never been one to drink but for the last 6 months she has at least 1 or 2 shots of whiskey almost every day. Sometimes when she drinks, a few wise crack criticisms come out toward me or she"ll show lack of care or interest as to what I'm saying.
Hate to say it but I think we're done and she's biding her time. I almost feel as if she actually has a plan and is keeping quiet. 
Any insight from someone who has been there or in a similar situation?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Mindspun2 said:


> So here I am over a month and a half since I last posted and 4 1/2 months since the fiasco popped. I find the relationship with my wife and I to be stale at best. I sometimes sleep in another room because I sometimes find it uncomfortable to sleep next to her. I feel she is not the same person she was. This whole thing has really made a mess of us.
> She is still going to counceling for herself every other Friday but never talks about it. I ask how it went and she just answers with a short, "it went good". We don't really talk like we use to and we definitely don't spend time together like we use to. None of this seems to bother her. I have the feeling she's just biding her time.
> She has been in communication with her family and all seems normal with her and them. They still have not reached out or even responded to me texts. That part angers me because I threw myself under the bus for the better of my wife and kids. I took all the blame and didn't even get a response til this date. My wife says I can't put a timeline on their response. I say this isn't a one way street and as family a response should have been made a long time ago. Not an agreement or a ok, but some kind of response. I said the lack of response shows their not worth waiting for.
> I told her they are nothing to me anymore. I want nothing to do with them and they don't deserve to ever see my kids again. I don't want my kids around people like that.
> ...


Beat her to the punch.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

Mindspun2 said:


> Around a year and a half ago I was becoming very upset with her mothers lack of trivial things. She never grew up on a septic or well system so I sat everyone down at the table and we discussed the do's and don'ts of items being flushed or bleach in the drains. Her Mother had continued to not only keep putting toilet paper and Kleenex down the toilet


Sorry for the hijack but I've always lived in homes with cesspools and I've been taught that after thoroughly wiping my ass the toilet paper has one and only one destination, and that seems to be in direct contrast to your post.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Stop texting her family and stop apologizing. If you wife wants to kiss their collective azzes, let her. Just don't let her blame you for her family's failings. Perhaps, she would be happier living with one of them?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

If you want my opinion and I am being serious you FIL had a blessed release poor soul. 

Your wife is lucky you did not throw HER out TBH.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

First, your kids are old enough to decide for themselves whether they want any involvement in your W’s family. DivinelyFavored suggested a couple of months ago to print out all the texts and give them to your kids to read. I recommend you do the same and tell them that you believe their grandmother to be a liar and manipulator and you won’t be having much to do with her and your BIL going forward. 

And if your W gets upset about it, then let her know that the kids deserved to know the truth about why their family is falling apart. 

As far as your wife is concerned, I would ask if you can come to one of her IC appointments. I doubt that she will allow it, but with her history I would not be surprised at all if she is lying and keeping things from her counselor, especially about you and her drinking. I don’t believe that you should make any attempt to use her IC as your MC, so you might also look into MC’s around your town. Set up an appointment with one and ask your W to go with you. Let her know that with her recent lack of commitment to you and the marriage, her overall lack of support, the gas-lighting and her drinking you are contemplating a separation and/or divorce. If she doesn’t go, then use the appointment for your own IC. You have plenty of issues to discuss, (drug dependency, anger, etc.). 

You might also set up an appointment with a lawyer and get a consult to see where you stand in your state in the event of divorce. 
I certainly wouldn’t just stand around waiting for your W to set you up to get your a$$ taken to the cleaners in a divorce. 

I like your idea of getting out on your own and going camping especially if you can get the attorney consult and the MC before you go. It will give you a great opportunity to reflect on what you want out of marriage and whether your W is suited for that job going forward.


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

Mclane. I meant paper towels , not toilet paper.


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

Tron. Once again you're response sounds solid. I appreciate your continued responses. I am still battling the dependency but have come along way. Unfortunately the docs have found other issues that need treatment. The stack is high but my resolve is higher. It just doesn't seem at all, that my wife has the commitment we once had. 
I went back and looked at all our text messages and Facebook posts with each other. Up until the morning before this all happened, you would see we had an incredibly awesome, fun relationship. It's mind boggling how a few hours later and the proceeding weeks, she has shown I've been blind or suckered for 25 years. Is that even possible? I still can't fathom what we had was fake. Does her family have that much control over her that she"s willing to lie and except lies from her family while destroying ours? STUNNED !!


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

Mindspun2 said:


> Mclane. I meant paper towels , not toilet paper.


When I first met my now exwife, who is hispanic, we visited her aunt and her cousins. There was a garbage can next to the toilet bowl and I was instructed to toss my used toilet paper, yes even after wiping my ass, into the can rather than flush it to save on the cesspool wear and tear.

I've heard about a lot of ways to save money but that's freaking disgusting and is crossing the line, in my opinion.

And yes, tissues and especially toilet paper can not only cause increased cesspool problems but main drain clogs too.


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

Mclane. That's nasty. Lol. I Didn't think I was out of order asking her to not throw Kleenex and paper towels in the toilet. 3 1/2 years and she never stopped. Instead, she would go back to her other 2 kids and tell them I was abusive. Actually, they've told my wife that she always said that my daughter (who was between the age of 12 and almost 16 at the time) treated her terribly and my wife and I were abusive. The crazy part is they believe and excepted it but for never said anything for 3 1/2 years. 
All this over paper towels and Kleenex in the toilet. Unbelievable. I thought I was in the twighlight zone. Now I just know they're nuts.


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## Married&Confused (Jan 19, 2011)

it sounds like blood is thicker than water and you're on the losing end of this battle. suggest getting finances in order, etc... for the big split.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

Mindspun2 said:


> Instead, she would go back to her other 2 kids and tell them I was abusive.


Typical alienating behavior. The alienator uses any possible situation to twist it around and make the targeted parent look like a POS.

My exwife became rather skilled at the art of poisoning my children. At one point I was paying $8000 per month (not a typo) in combined spousal and child support, and my exwife who declined to obtain gainful employment would cry to my children and tell them they might have to move because dad was starving them out of house and home. 

Eventually it becomes so ridiculous the kids realize things just don't add up and it backfires on the alienator. Not always, but often.


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

I've been feeling that same point of view lately. The wife again has been going hot and cold. I am still battling the prescription medicine but have made significant progress. She still after 5 months will not vocally say she is committed to our marriage. 

A few weeks ago I sent another text to the siblings. In a nut shell I stated how there silence to all my texts apologizing, speaks volumes as to what kind of people they are. In the same text I told my wife I was sorry but she may be ok with how they treated her husband and disrupted our family (my wife, our kids and me) but I was not. My wife was fine with it for a few days but started changing her mind on how she felt about it.

A few days later she said she still hasn't had a chance to work on herself (after 3 months of therapy). So I said then I'll go camping for the weekend and give you your space. She said that's a good idea for both of us. She bought some easy food for me and helped me pack the cooler. 

Later that day my son asked why I was going camping alone. I said to get out of your mothers hair and give her some space. About a half hour into my trip, my wife calls and explodes. Yelling she would appreciate it if I dd not try to turn our kids against her. After 20 minutes of arguing I said ask your son what I said and if its different from what we spoke of then I'm guilty. If it's not, then look at yourself for this argument. A few minutes later she apologized and admitted she got mad because her son was just telling her that he felt I left because of her. Because she wasn't being fair. I said that's true I left because of you. It's not a good thing I had t leave to give you space. But I never said those words to him. She admitted she asked him and he said that's how he feels. I said hey you can't tell him he's not allowed to feel a certain way. You can discuss it with him like a parent should. He's almost 19, he's not a dumb kid. He sees for himself what's going on and he told you how he felt. You should be proud he's willing to speak his mind with you and not let it build up inside and get worse. I told her, your family is pulling your strings and munpulating you and this whole damn thing and you don't to see it. 

So now I'm back on the couch but I told her I'm in the bed the nights you don't have work the next day. I'm still out of work from my injury so it makes sense to let her sleep in the bed when she has work the next day.

Then a few days ago I sent the siblings and mother another text. I stated their sister needed them and I would appreciate if they'd respond and accept a call from me. The sister responded and we later talked. She sounded upset, guarded and had somewhat of an attitude. I rolled with it so not to fall into any trap. I said I just wanted to show your sister that as adults we can have civil conversation and just talk. She (my wife) has told me over and over again she cant live like this knowing her family and husband wont talk to each other. I even left out that I've made 3 attempts to reconcile and apologized for everything and none of them ever responded to any of them. The brother never responded to the latest text. The sister told me "my mother and brother wont talk to you". I said "that's a shame because I'm doing this for his sister and her daughter". 

Now yesterday my wife texts me that her sister called her mother and brother and said "she" thinks its time we all sat down and talked. Funny ha. She said she would host it at her house (an hour from us but 10 miutes from them). She also said that they would not talk about what happened. That we are only to go to figure out how to move forward. If anyone starts arguing I'll throw everyone out. It is important to note that after I spke to the sister a few days earlier and was told the mother and brother wont talk to me, I told my wife, Look this is what I did. I did it for you and this family. This is my 4rth or 5th attempt in 5 months. I said but this time I made it clear that this was for you and that you needed them. Your own mother and brother don't have the decency to consider you. What does that tell you? She went right into defending them mode.

At first I texted back. Ill bring the doughnuts. Then I texted, or maybe the special brownies. You know to lighten the mood. She replied she was nervous about what they're going to say and didn't want to joke about it. 

Today my wife says to me and my son that her sister wants everyone to go including all the kids. My son said he did not want to go. He said she is making it on her terms. My wife got upset with him and started with defending them again stating "they're finally all agreeing to break the ice. I want you to go". She looked at me for an answer. I said look. As of today I feel like if they're not going to apologise and only try to talk about how to move forward, it's useless. First off I'm weaning off meds that have me going thru wicked withdrawls so I cant go until I'm off the meds and healthy. If we're going to talk face to face I want to be clear of the medicine first. I also said by not apologizing it means nothing. If they're sincere about moving forward they would apologise. At a minimum if they're not going to apologise then they should come up here to talk. I've bent over backwards for 5 moths and it fell on deaf ears. Now you want me to drive an hour down to them to hear them figure out a way to move forward without apologizing. My wife said you don't know what they're going to say. I told 1st off- your sister told me on the phone the other day, "I never replied to any of your texts because I didn't want to talk about it and we here already know the truth". And- You just told us that she said they will not talk about it. they only want to figure out how to move forward. You also added that she said that if 2 people want to talk about it then they can go talk privately. I said what is that? I said it's simple. They apologise like I did for 5 months. 

My wife walked away saying "I can't believe what I'm hearing. They're trying to move forward and you won't go. I thought you'd be happy. I guess I'm stupid". I said I never said I wouldn't go. I said if they're not going to apologize, what's the point? And if their not going to apologize then they should at least come here. It would show they have an inch of care about this. 


Any feed back is appreciated.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Omg, you really should not have been sending all those texts. STOP doing that immediately. I understand why you felt you should, but all it did was make you appear weak in their eyes. You arent going to get an apology, that much is clear. I would say GO to this ridiculous meeting, listen to what they have to say. Say as little as possible, you have already said way too much, and you are never going to get anywhere. So...sit....listen. If you dont think you can go along with whatever crap gets proposed, then disagree, go home, and let it go.


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

I hear ya. For the first 4 months I was pretty medicated and all my emotions were exaggerated. Especially my anger. But with all the meds, I still believe if you care about your family, you respond. The fact that my wife thought it was ok for them not to respond all that time was mind boggling to me. What precedent are we setting for our kids? That your aunt, uncle and grandmother can do and say whatever they want and you have to take it and say nothing. That your not as important as they are? Absolutely not. There are consequences in all we do. Always talk things out with your family. Always apologize if you make a mistake. Own your actions. I feel my wife's family is undermining all of that.

I have 2 frame of thoughts going on at the same time.

1- Like you said. Go there and let them do all the talking. I might get surprised and they'll actually apologize. From what I've heard and experienced so far, I'm not holding my breath. 

2- The way my wife defends them after I gave them every out and after I threw myself under the bus to save our family. And after the way she's been around here as if she's working her way out the door. How can I trust her again?


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

3leafclover
Holy crap. I just spent hours trying to get in and respond to you and when I finally finished responding with a novel the damn page went blank. So now I'm gonna give the short version. I know the rest of you are probably like Whew!!! No more novels!!!

I don't agree with most of yr reply. I actually found most of yr responses tactless considering the magnitude of what my family and I have been going thru. I would venture to say you have fallen victim to a manipulative person or persons yourself. Fallen victim to immature drama. Or both. Or maybe I'm completely wrong and I need to go back "again" and review my post and maybe see the missing piece I've been looking for.

That being said I do thank you for yr response. I can agree there's plenty of people who do both.
I can admit I have apologized to my wife's family at times more to benefit my wife and immediate family, than to sincerely apologize. I do however feel I have looked for and attempted to turn over every stone I came across to mend fences.

So the short version goes like this;
I know where I screwed up and I've made every attempt at apologizing and making amends. I know I'm no angel in this but I'm an angel in comparison.
They're are many reasons I vented in the tone or magnitude that I have here. Medicine, backstabbing, deceit, lies, shock, anger, confusion, disbelief would be the biggest, but also hoping to hear the magic fix all reply.

The bottom line is, no matter what medicine (on my end), alcohol (MIL's end) and I'm still shocked at the SIL and BIL and even my wife, so I still cant explain their actions. But what ever the forces are that made us all do what we did. If during that you allow those forces to betray your family. Treat them like an enemy. Or you allow those forces to remove the integrity, honesty, respect, love, etc.. that you had just days before. How can you expect me not to be shocked and overwhelmed with betrayal ?

I've owned, apologized, took advise, explained. listened, and came back time and time again to do it all again. I searched every angle at all different times throughout, knowing the medicines might be playing a bigger role than I could see at times. I never gave up. I came back at every opportunity. THEY HAVE DONE NOTHING. It all fell on deaf ears until I dropped the responsibility in the sisters lap on the phone. They did nothing until I told them I saved every text and allowed my kids to read them. 

Now that they know I saved the texts and the truth is there as to who did what and who made what attempts to make things right. Now the sister wants to have a family meeting. But with conditions. No one can talk about what happened. REALLY? If 2 people want to talk about it, they can go somewhere else to do it. REALLY? The kids have to be there. REALLY?

Color me blind but Just a few days ago I told my wife I would go but my kids are not going. They don't even want to go. My daughter says she wants to see her cousins but not "them". My son says he doesn't wan to go at all. "They" dug the hole they're in now. Not me. I explained to my wife I refuse to force my kids to go and quite frankly "They" don't get to make rules for my kids after their actions and inaction. I will go and listen. If they show an ounce of honesty and sincere resolve. I will consider talking to my kids about the next time. I also did put my own condition on the meeting. It wait until I am completely off the meds. 

So that's we are now. We sleep in different rooms but split up the time in the master bedroom. Yes, it's that much better than the guest room. We are cordial and even gone to 2 friends BBQ's together within the last few weeks. We are not in no way the awesome couple and pals we were the day, weeks, months, years before this happened. I lost trust. That for me is extremely difficult to live with. I can not overcome that on the 1 way street they've all been on. 

I appreciate your reply even though I find you to be way off base. That's ok. That's how you see it. I can even see how someone else might feel the same way. After all, I came to you all a mess, on medicine, feeling all the emotions above, lost and in a complete circle of confusion. Hence the reason I searched for a site like this.

I really do appreciate your outside and complete opposite view of my post. It can only help me to see another angle. An angle I may have missed. Another opportunity to go back and quadruple check where I may have screwed up. So thanks.


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

3leafclover,
I guess call me a gluten for punishment. After reading your reply a few more times, I went back and re-read my entire post and "my" replies. I can't help but question the post you read to give you the impressions you stated. 

Maybe your can help me understand what led you to some of your comments.

1- My posts sound carefully crafted to make me sound like the good guy.
ans. I simply wrote it how it happened. I did not disguise or hide from my wrongs. 

2- There are several traits or behaviors that hint at them.
ans. Please explain where.

3- They weren't genuine apologise.

ans. I'll give the latter apologise were not sincere. But from the beginning I was sincere. Not sure what makes you so confident they all weren't.

4- I gave them with expectations of how they should be accepted etc..

ans. When you apologise to your family over and over, do you not expect a reponse? This is your family we're talking about. I applied no pressure. We never even spoke at that point. They never responded for me to know what to think. As to "the way you wanted". I just wanted any form of response. Is it normal for your family to not respond at all?

5- You say I crossed my wife's and her family's boundaries etc..

ans. To begin with, again her family never responded so therefor never told me they needed time. How would I know that? My wife added suggestions or more like searched for excuses by saying things like; maybe they're still upset, maybe they need more time, you don't know what they're thinking so you can't be so upset. Eventually my wife herself said "I don't know why they haven't responded yet. I agree they should have".

6- *More than once in the past, your "apology" simply led to a new opportunity for you to vent about what the other person did wrong, so it's almost as if they're intended to stir the pot and force people to listen to you rather than to truly apologize for your part in things and move on.

ans. Please explain this one. Here you just sound like an angry person. One of my most famous lines in this house is; We're all only on this rock once. Let's not give each other a hard time or always complain. let's work as a team. Mostly as the kids grew. Especially in their teen years. If you have kids you'll know what I mean. 

7- As for "pulling" everyone into the texts.

ans. It's simple. To avoid the he said she said routine I was getting in the beginning. As sad as it sounds that I actually felt I had to save all the texts, I'm glad I did . When I let everyone know I still had everyone and I let my kids read them, you'd be amazed at how fast they now want to have this so called meeting. With the kids there. All of a sudden the SIL is saying "I cant speak for them but,, yada yad yada. Amazing what happens when the truth is staring back at you. 

8- As far as your comment about me might having a hair trigger temper.

ans. I can almost give you that one. I have always been as my wife calls me, "the rock in the family". The one she can always rely on to calm her down and make sense of crap. That being said I do have some extremely important values that yes I would lose my temper over. I am am deep rooted in Integrity, honesty, family, truth, respect and with those values comes owning and being responsible for our actions. If you cross those values accidentally I would much rather difuse the situation and take pride in knowing I had part in a peaceful solution that made everyone happy. BUT. if you were to deliberately wedge yourself betweem me.my famil and those values, then yes I would most likely lose my temper. 
As I get older, yes I lose more patience in the immature nonsense, the stirring of the pot or childish drama. But I also gain more patience and look for other ways to find resolve.

So in a nut shell, I considerably disagree with your analysis of "my" post and "my" replies. I will always appreciate an opposite view or debate. They can only strengthen our understandings and make us better people. I do feel there's more that led to your replies than you're letting on. I cautiously say I think you may have been in your own situation, that had you on the other side of a simliar disappointment in someone as I have. I hope I'm wrong because it's a shallow place to be. 

I still am glad you chose to reply as it did give me the incentive to revisit all I have posted. As well as all I have written down as this drama unfolded. As I'm sure you've read in my earlier posts, I was heavily medicated in the past and had to write things down so not to forget and to check myself if I screwed up. Sad to say but glad I did.

Thanks again,


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## rileyawes (Jun 28, 2016)

Yeah, stop apologizing. You have apologized. You've been more than generous with your mother-in-law, more than her own kids, even. Yes, you have a problem with drug dependency... that doesn't mean that you're wrong in essence. Your wife's divided loyalties are something she's been battling her whole life probably. She, her sister, and brother have probably ALWAYS been united with their mom against an outside force. I'm sure it's familiar by now, whether it was school, social services, or other family members and friends. Examples: "mom's sleeping" when in fact she is passed out drunk, or "I fell down" if she hit them, "she's not here right now," if she's out at the bar, "she really didn't mean it," or "it wasn't mom's fault, they're lying" when she gets irrational and screams at people. 

They know she's in the wrong, but they don't want to admit that something seriously terrible is going on, so they rationalize it away to remove the (extremely uncomfortable) cognitive dissonance. How can their mother be a terrible person? They LOVE HER, after all. I went through something similar with my husband (but we have no kids), and I told him to remove the family member from his life or lose me. It was a pretty serious situation, he was actually being harmed, and he complied, but not after putting up a serious fight, saying all manner of things: "she's had a hard life, you don't know her like we do, she's my [family member], I love her, everyone in the neighborhood loves her, too, if you loved me you wouldn't do this" etc. After the separation, he was able to see how troubling the behavior was, and confirm it with other close friends. No one had wanted to say anything to anyone that still put up with her out of fear of getting cut off, but ultimately we're all better off without her. Consider that families will stay in contact with and protect people who have molested multiple OTHER family members, and neighbors, people who drink, do drugs, and beat them. This is hard for your wife. She can't blame her mother, so she blames you. Then she looks at your behavior objectively and sees that you are right. But you can't be right, because then her mother would be wrong. But in fact, you are right..and round and round.

Her therapist needs to be helping her get over this and see the situation for what it is and behave in a healthy way. Are you sure she's actually going? Even if she is, the therapist could be telling her everything she needs to hear, and she could be resisting. That isn't to say that it won't eventually click. That also happened with my husband. If she isn't ready, she won't listen to advice, no matter how good it is or who it's coming from. Perhaps if she changes therapists and gets the same opinion from another source, she'll see more evidence mounting on the "stand up for her husband" side. Have you shown her this thread? She already knows that it's not right. She really does. Whether she does anything about it or not is her choice. Maybe try framing it the opposite way. I do this with my husband and find it usually works. "How would you feel if my mother came to live in our house, and you helped pay her bills, and she [insert behavior that your wife was present for, or has acknowledged as true already], then my siblings and I froze you out, and the kids took my side?"

My advice, then. Stop contacting her family. Go to the family meeting. Listen to what they say, and refute anything you need to with facts (texts or corroboration from your wife). Don't let them manipulate facts to paint you as the bad guy, but neither should you get upset and lose your composure. Perhaps your wife seeing her family dumping on you and you calmly refuting the facts will help her be on your side. Perhaps not, I don't know. Seek counseling on your own. Read books. Take care of your health. Don't let it get you down. If the marriage ends, that's terrible, but you need your spouse to have your back, and to support what's right over what's an easy (unhealthy) habit.


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

Rileyawes,
Thank you for your response. You pretty much nailed it on the head as far as I see it. 

And they all think she'll be fine on her own (MIL). She needs a facility. But they wont do anything about it. 

Years ago my wife came to me and told me she was the black sheep in her family. That when she grew up her mother and father would make her do the brothers laundry and clean up after him. My wife is the middle child. She said that her sister sometimes had to do it to but it was always mostly her. From the day I picked up my wife to move in with me, to last November, both her siblings had said; "you don't know what its like to have had to grow up with her (my wife)". REALLY. Grow up already. We're all adults, parents, I mean really, stop it already. I could see as a joke in the beginning but after 25 years if yr still saying it now when there's a problem then yr just blaming her. Not cool. 

They've manipulated her (my wife) she has never been a solid part of their circle. She knows it but was taught to accept it. Even with serious matters and consequences at stake. It's a damn shame. Sometimes I feel I share some of the blame for not holding her to really do something about it. Have pride in yourself. Tell them how you feel. 
Now when I tried to explain it, it blew up in my face. I guess it wasn't my place to try. 

Anyway. Thanks again. Todays a better day with my wife and I. We really haven't seen much of each other but when we did it was pleasant. Thanks for your response. Enjoy your weekend.


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

Update- So I had another injection in my T9 this morning. I felt the medicine rush thru the areas were I have the most pain so it seems like he got the right spot. Hopefully I feel good results very soon.

I am on day 4 of next Tramadol change. I stopped the 100mg Er and now take 1 Tram 50 in the morning and set the clock for 8 hours later to take the next Tram 50 at 4:00pm. For pain I take the Hydrocodone between 1 or 2 a day and add 2 extra strength Tyleneol as needed and lastly I take Diazepam to help stay calm from the withdrawls.

I have made significant progress. I go for walks, I started more isometric exercise and neck exercise the doc gave me but keep each episode very short so not to inflame anything. I changed my diet and added vitiamns and a protein and suplemnt drink to keep my energy up and sustain a helthy level of vitamins in my body. I am drinking lots of water too to help flush my system. I've been reading and just overall remindng my self to stay upbeat. I get out to shops someimes to get my focus off everything and that helps. 

In regards to the family meeting I'm stuck. I know many of you feel I should go and you may be right, but I'm still having a difficult time with it. I told my wife I would go, but from time to time a few things keep going over in my head. 1- what the sister had told me before she decided to have this meeting. She said "hey if you guys stay happily ever married. That's great. If you don't, It is what it is". Another was, "I didn't respond to any of yr texts because I didn't want to talk about it. We here all know the truth. I can also tell you my brother and mother will not talk to you". Then what she said to my wife. One of her conditions to havng the meeting is "No one is allowed to talk about it here. We're just here to figure out how to move forward". Top it all off with The BIL and MIL still have not responded to any of my texts. I've stopped and told them all in the last one I sent would that that text would be my last. 

So just to recap. NONE of them have ever apologized or so much as recognized any responsibility for their actions to me. Not any response at all. Total silence. Recently 1 of the 3 responded to 2 of the 5 texts but was cold to say the least. She's willing to have the meeting but went thru my wife to set it up. (One of the things my wife kept getting mad at me (not them) was "Everyone puts me in the middle". The SIL could have texted me and said this is wat I'm thinking of doing. Woud you be in terested? After all, all my texts were directly to them. To avoid putting my wife in the middle, So why go thru her? Laslty. If the BIL and MIL will not talk to me and none of us can talk about what happened. How do you really resolve it? 

Personally if they're not going to talk about it all together as a group. Not take any ownership or responsinility of any kind and not apologize for it. What point does it serve for me to go? It appeases my wife. What do they get from it. Thye get to munioulate their sister more. They want our kids their too but that;s not happening. I'm in protection mode for them. If I do go and it goes the way I feell it will, I wil be very calm and silent, leave at the end and wipe the slate clean of them in regards to me and my kids. If my kids change their minds when their older, so be it. 

I really do appreciate all your responses. This is the biggest act of betrayal I've ever had to deal with and being its family its extremely difficult to even understand. Like I said in an earlier post. We have never had a hint of problems toward each other in 25 years, so this is like being in a bad episode of the Twilight Zone. There was some writing on the walls but it was mostly their internal family stuff. I never tought I'd see it directly involve me. You would think as you grow older the loyalty and honesty would grow stronger and not completely disingrate in days. 
Thanks


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

Update. So things have been increasingly getting better this past week.

My wife had a girl party at the house this past weekend. When she first told me she was going to have the party a while back, she told me I should find something to do because she as having a girls night here at the house. Then a few days before the party she tells me I can come back early and hang out if I want that I don't have to stay away until it's over.

I decided to go walk around he mall and then see a movie to kill time. Eventually I went home and did take part in their party. My wife was very nice and having a great time. Everyone was. Watching us interact you would never have known we had this huge issue hanging over us. This was great.

A few days before the party she told me her sister wanted to take my daughter with her family to the beach like 3 hours away. I said I was not happy with it and did not want my daughter to go. I felt by them asking my daughter to go while them blowing off her father and blaming him for everything for 6 months they were teaching my daughter its ok for them to treat her father this way and the whole family can live their lives happily together without me. Just like they did to me on Easter.

Today my wife asked me again and I said again, I don't like it and didn't want her to go. She got upset and said but she does. We got into the whole discussion again as to why I felt the way I do and her reply in a nut shell is this has been all my fault. Then after I questioned on it she retracted it kind of by saying everyone had a hand in it but it was my fault. Then the final blow came like some of you said it would. She can't do this anymore. She said she wants a divorce in many ways without actually saying the words "I want a divorce". 

I said look, you're saying you want out, your words are saying you want a divorce but you want me to say it for you. I told her if that's what you want, just say it and stop the hurt already. I told her your driving the train. I don't want the divorce but I cant stop you and don't want you to be unhappy, so you push the button and do what you want to do.

I went in our bedroom to lay down. She came and said how do we do this? I said I don't know. I asked her when she wanted to tell the kids to see what she'd say. She said do you think we should talk first and figure stuff out. I said just tell them the truth on how you feel. She said I'm sure they'll have questions. I said I'm sure too. Our daughter still in high school is going to think about the house and where she'll be living. My wife has told me she did not want the house during one of our previous divorce conversations and that I deserved it for all the hard work I put into it. 

During tonight's conversation she commented we should get a realtor. I said for what? I'll stay here. She said I know but I own half of the house.

So I know she's entitled to it but daughter will end up living here. Any advise?


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

@Mindspun2

You my friend, continue to be your own worst enemy. I know you mean well, but as the old saying goes "you can't get out of your own way". Please read what I'm posting here very carefully, at least consider it and do not immediately dismiss it as being wrong, or due to lack of understanding. Because I do get you, I've been there. Now that my divorce is approaching the 1 decade mark, I'm so much smarter! (tongue in cheek).

Let's go to the videotape.



Mindspun2 said:


> Later that day my son asked why I was going camping alone. I said to get out of your mothers hair and give her some space. About a half hour into my trip, my wife calls and explodes. Yelling she would appreciate it if I dd not try to turn our kids against her. After 20 minutes of arguing I said ask your son what I said and if its different from what we spoke of then I'm guilty.


You're guilty. The way you presented things to your son puts your wife in a position of being the bad guy. She's giving you a hard time and you are running away. Of course your son will interpret things that way, it's how you said it! Next time you could say something like "Things have been a bit stressful around here lately, I need to get away for a few days to clear my head". Notice that you do not mention his mother anywhere in there. See the difference? Good, let's move on. It gets worse. 



Mindspun2 said:


> I said it's simple. They apologise like I did for 5 months.


As previously stated (I think) your continuous relentless apologies are useless, ineffective and self depreciating. You want to apologize for something you really felt you did wrong, then fine. Do it once, and realize no one TOLD you to do it, it was YOUR choice. Don't expect the same behavior from others. That's one of your ongoing problems, you fail to realize that people don't all think the way you do, nor should they. 



Mindspun2 said:


> My wife walked away saying "I can't believe what I'm hearing. They're trying to move forward and you won't go. I thought you'd be happy. I guess I'm stupid". I said I never said I wouldn't go. I said if they're not going to apologize, what's the point?


You are so hung up on this apology thing, it's going to bury you.


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

McLane. Thanks for yr response.
You're right. I have a problem with the apology thing. I've been trying to let it go. I told my wife a few days ago that I will no longer expect anything from them. Apology or otherwise. I said I will move on. I said you're right maybe I expect too much. We're all different and its not for me to change them to my standards. I'm going to keep moving forward with getting healthy and get this bad energy out of the house so I can be happy. I told her if she would jump on that train it would be awesome.

I did tell here a few times and wrote in a letter to her that I promised to go to the meeting with a genuine ear. For some reason she keeps going back to when I said I didnt want to go. I keep asking why do you keep going backwards? She now is telling me it was never suppose to be a meeting but more of an ice breaker. A day to just be around each other without talking about it. I said I keep telling you I am going. The I asked, why didnt you say that in the beginning? Why describe it as a meeting of us all at the table but not to apologize or talk about what happened. All this time I have been confused as to the purpose of going to a meeting where we all sit at the table but not talk about it. I kept saying what's the point. To me it would be completely uncomfortable.

It seems we've had some serious communication problems that made this whole mess worse. But now with the complete reversal on her end while I'm getting better and believing we have been moving forward and making progress. She also agreed we were, just this morning. So again I find myself in this Twilight Zone. If she and I agree we were making progress and moving forward, whats with yesterdays outburst of being done and wanting out and exaggerating my original wrongs and hanging on to things I've since agreed to?

I understand part of it. I had said I did not want my daughter to go to the beach with her sister. After talking to my wife again this morning, she said it was more of another ice breaker. To show each other we're willing to move forward as a family as a whole. I can see how I am wrong for not seeing that as an oppurtunity, but geez why couldnt you say that the first few times we talked about it? It seems whenever I dont understand her because she explains it differently the first time, she starts in with I cant do this anymore. 

I dropped another pill off my regiment the other day and I went down hill, so I know my tones at times caused some of this. But if we cant say what the original intent of things are. Meetings at the table when its now really suppose to be a family day and ice breaker. My sister wants to take our daughter to the beach to spend time with her and her cousins when its really partly that, but mostly another ice breaker for all of us. 

I am completely confused and I feel words, descriptions and intents keep changing and I'm blamed for more and more. I'm trying so damn hard to get healthy, avoid confrontation, be nice, understanding and more helpful around the house and with the kids (being I'm home more). I know I share blame in this and I cant always do the things I just said. I am far from knowing the right way to fix it and I have my quirks like with the expecting apologise or at least responses. It's like by her deliberately hanging on to things we got past and now exaggerating my wrongs, it will make it easier for her to leave. Forget about all the good I've done, my apologise, flowers, letters, admitting my wrongs, fighting my injury and weaning off the meds. Just make me the bad guy and its easier to leave.

I guess its time to throw in the towel. 

Thank you everyone for your responses.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Mindspun, 

your not a mind reader and i am guessing neither is your wife, and yet there seems to be an assumption that both of you or one of you expects that of the other, your taking her statements at face value without probing, without asking questions, to uncover the real intent, so you hear one thing while she is saying something completely different and vice versa, the value of any conversation is in the understanding of the topic, the underlying message and the tone in which it is expressed. Its not about throwing in the towel its about asking the right questions, until both of you understand completely.


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

Xenote. Thanks for yr response. 

In the beginning I was accused of not hearing her. At that time I admit my brain was scrambled eggs from a ****tail of meds and it could not have been easy for her. As time went on I wrote things down to go back and hopefully see my mistakes and understand better. It began to work and I would slowly come around to some things. I never did overcome the expectations of getting apologies.

I finally recently excepted it and told her as much and as sincerely as I could. We spoke verbally and then I wrote her letters to avoid tones and asked her to respond in letter format as well and she did. We both thought the letters were good exercises and helped a little in understanding. But even in the letters she would say that I would not do things Like go to the meeting. After I clearly wrote and spoken to her that I promised to go and give a genuine ear to whatever they had to say.

Then she completely switched gears again last night and right out blamed me for now everything.

I just can't wrap my head around the back and forth. Just 2 days ago she again was asking me about us building a nice deck in the backyard. Then asked me to go to a moving sale. When there, she pointed out a large wagon wheel knowing we both love them. I said you want to get it and she said yeah ask how much they want. I bought it and we went home and discussed good places for it. 

Then yesterday she came home upset and next thing you now she's bringing up things we had already gotten past. Then saying that I was very mean to her mother, her and the kids. Both our kids disagree but did say there were a few times right after surgery that I was short tempered or over angry about little things, but they knew it was the medicine. Our son said you were not that bad and we all knew you were going to have a hard time with the medicine. We talked about it before your surgery. It's not right for mom to say that. Then said she's crazy. I said thanks but don't hold it against her too much. She is just learning now that she has her own issues she needs to resolve. 

What I did not say to my kids is everytime she comes home after talking with her family, I am suddenly targeted. Is it coincidence? Are they feeding this in her? Or does she do it to make it easier for her to leave. She made it as clear as one can, without actually saying the word Divorce yesterday. She said she cant do this anymore. She said she will move out but stay in the school district to be near our kids. She said she doesn't want to hurt me or make it a bad thing. She says you're not happy either. Then she says she owns half the house and we need to figure that out. Then she says she's not in a rush. I have to ask here in the forum. Then why the attacks and lies? Why the back and forth? Why keep drudging up things we both agreed and seemed happy we got past? It really feels like she's been planning this for a while and biding her time and setting me up. 

I'm going to just roll with it. No anger. Sure it's upsetting and hard to hide but I know I've done everything I know how, to save us and start to mend the whole family. It all fell on deaf ears and now my own wife has switched her stance on what I've done and is extremely exaggerating how bad it was. She even admitted it this morning. She said she said that part out of anger. It's like Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hide but I'm the one weaning off meds. Not her. 

I want to understand but its near impossible with the back ad forth, lies and with me weaning off. I'm a heck of alot clearer now and I'm stunned.

Sorry for the novels. I just try to be clear as to where my mind is at the times I am writing and replying here in the forum. I really do appreciate you all. 

As far as the meds. Today was the best day to date. I only had 1 Tram this morning. That's it. I stayed busy. Had a tough emotional roller coaster day but its 4:43pm here and I won the meds battle today. I am going to take 1 hydrochodone now for pain and 1 half Tramadol at 8:00pm. If I need I'll fall back on Extra Strength Tylenol and 1 Diazepam. If I can make it thru today with just that it would be truly amazing. 

Sorry , I'm hijacking my own thread and using you guys as meds therapy too but you are all helpful. I appreciate everyones point of view, every critique, all of it. Thanks


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

Dude you need to back off, relax and go with the flow and stop questioning everything. 

If you want to save this thing your wife needs to know she can feel free venting to you, complaining, whatever without you picking it apart and looking for answers and reasons.

Say less, listen more. Acquiesce to some of your wife's requests without questioning her motives. You come across as exactly what you are trying not to be- argumentative and confrontational.


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

Your MIL had some complaints back when she lived with you. You went and got the entire family involved and blew it out of proportion. Now your wife has complaints and you're involving the kids. I'm sensing a pattern.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

The easy divorce your wife says she wants?

She'll want that until her puppet masters decide otherwise.

"He owes you, big time, for putting up with all his trash!"

"You deserve your share of the house! Let him get a trailer or a tiny apartment!"

"The kids? Ahhh, forget about them! They'll do OK. They can live with you at such-and-such a relative's place!"

And so forth.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

Hello Mindspun2. I joined the group specifically to post this message.



Mindspun2 said:


> In the beginning I was accused of not hearing her. You hear her just fine. At that time I admit my brain was scrambled eggs from a ****tail of meds and it could not have been easy for her. As time went on I wrote things down to go back and hopefully see my mistakes and understand better. It began to work and I would slowly come around to some things. I never did overcome the expectations of getting apologies. There will be no apology because the entire family lacks the ability to feel remorse
> 
> I finally recently excepted it and told her as much and as sincerely as I could. We spoke verbally and then I wrote her letters to avoid tones and asked her to respond in letter format as well and she did. We both thought the letters were good exercises and helped a little in understanding. But even in the letters she would say that I would not do things Like go to the meeting. After I clearly wrote and spoken to her that I promised to go and give a genuine ear to whatever they had to say.
> 
> ...


Since your wife will never cut ties with her family the only solution is to isolate your wife from you and the kids. Give the kids the full details of your communications with your wife's family. Make it very clear to them that your wife is in need of rescuing from a life-long abuse perpetrated by her mother and siblings. Give them every details necessary to understand the entire situation. Let them understand what is and is not NORMAL. 

Only when your kids distance themselves from her family will she be forced to choose between you + the kids VS her family. If she chooses you + the kids, she will save herself. If she chooses her mother and siblings then at least you've save your kids from possible lifetime of abusive relationships. Your wife will not like this. But this is for her own good and it will benefit your kids tremendously. Do not give into "what she wants". What she wants is not good for her.

Stay strong. If you do not take this step your family will be torn apart. You will lose your wife and your kids. You will be alone. Your wife will continue to be victimized. Your kids will inherit the cycle of abuse. It is time for you to grow a pair and do the right thing.


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

KillerClown. I do appreciate your specific interest in signing up jsut to reply to my post. I thank you.
I do believe it was a combination of my values, my over intense mindset on the meds and my pair that had a hand in making my whole situation worse than it should have gotten. That said however. Meds or no meds, I am still a strong believer in values, specifically owning our mistakes. Especially when it matters most like with family. More simply put, being honest. 
I do believe as you and others have also surmised from my posts, My wife is indeed a hostage to her family. It's a cruel place to be and even with all that's happened I do understand and feel for her. But I also still believe that after 25 years and 2 kids, if you allow yourself to be hostage at this point in your life and after all she's accomplished without them, then that's on her. I can't allow myself to be another victim of their narcissism. I wont allow their selfish traits to be taught to my kids. I have been accused of having a short line with having compassion and understanding with others. I whole heartedly disagree. I have a very strong stance when it comes to values, family and my kids. I will not tolerate disloyalty, dishonesty, deceit or deliberate lies to defend another liar against me or my family.

Thank you for your reply. They all help me to understand more. I really appreciate the extraordinary effort you made for me. Someone you dont know. Thank you.


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

Mclane. Celes. Thank you both for your responses. I somehow missed a few until now. 

Mclane,
I agree you're right about stopping and listening. That was impossible for me to do in the beginning. For 1 when I see my wife upset to the point of tears I automatically go into concern mode. 2- When she told me how it was a family discussion they were having about her and me for years and how we were supposedly abusive. I couldnt understand why nothing was said for so long until it became anger. I understood why what they were saying hurt my wife and it obviously upset and angered me as well. I definitely lost to the meds in where I coudnt let it go. Now at a point where I am taking so much less and am clearer and with alot of help here, I see that now.

I have backed off but I admit as clearer as I've been, I still had flash points. They're gone now. I see my wife really needs to work on herself as she's been saying. We both agree we were not communicating properly. I definitely see it more than her. Although she's been going to counseling for months for her personal issue (I believe her family created from what she has told me), my anger and her families lack of responses did not give her the mental chance to come home and absorb her sessions. 

Celes,
I actually didnt know about the MIL complaints. My wife and I were blindsided. We were shocked that so much was said for so long without anyone discussing it with us for years.

I thought it was the right the thing to talk to everyone to resolve where things went wrong. After all they were talking about it amongst themselves for years to a point of anger. That's not what we're suppose to do. I cant teach my kids to sweep such serious matters under the rug to a point where you become so angry with family or anyone for that matter. My problem was as much as I was trying to resolve stuff, I was seriously diluted and in no position to be the diplomat. As much as I thought I could, I see between my meds and their family hi-archy roles, it was like banging my head against a wall and not feeling the pain. I became so angry it blunted my normal thought process of stopping and stepping back and checking my head and approach. 

In the beginning I thought I was doing the right thing. Everything seemed to be falling into place when we talked rational about it. Then my SIL, instead of discussing what they actually told my wife, she began stating I dont do anything with them anymore. When I debunked that and she began to agree, she then made it more about my wife and her treatment of her own in-laws. (I advised her to talk with her sister instead of letting it stew inside).

Then when I thought we were all fine (Through their own words to me). I find out 2 months later the MIL was at it again drudging up more junk and flat out lying. At that point I lost my cool with the MIL. That is what ended up making everyone else upset. I own that.

Then realizing how I angered everyone, I apologised. My apology was met with anger and insults which I absorbed without resistance, with my wife seated right next to me as my witness. Then from the BIL my apology was met with ridiculous taunts. From the man I and they believed to be the most rational of all. I again absorbed it but eventually hung up rather than listen to his continued irrational behavior. Sure it's ok and normal to be mad and upset but not irrational and childish at our age. 

Rather than let it go, I allowed it to anger me more. Month after month after month I would apologise again and again and again. All falling on deaf ears. In my mind I couldnt understand why they couldnt at least respond and my wife would defend them and i stewed in it more and got more angry. At that point I was the irrational one. I still dont understand neither their actions and inactions but I wont stew in it. I'm moving on. 

I do now realize how my stewing in it blunted my wife's own attempt to understand what happened and why they were so irrational. My anger, getting greater and greater and my wife's unwillingness to confront her family prevented us from having a conversation and instead it led to arguing. Top it off with her family then going to her and saying we don't have a problem with you. We're here to support you. Go home and fix what ever's wrong with your marriage. SAY WHAT. My wife and I were best friends before this. That is the art of manipulation and is part of why she is where she is in her personal issue.

As far as bringing the kids into it. They were thrust into it just by the nature of hearing us argue. The kids began to come to one or the other of us and it started getting out of order. Sometimes they were around for an argument or come home to the end of an argument or miss a few good or bad conversations. I could see in their minds they were trying to put a puzzle together that very much hurt them but without all the pieces. I suggested to my wife that we sit down as a family and tell them the truth. In the beginning my wife did not agree and did not want me to share the texts with the kids. I said we cant have an honest conversation with them if we only give them half the facts. That would be like only hearing 1 side of a story and that's not fair to anyone and sets a bad example of how they should handle things. At least they'll have the facts. We also told them regardless of anything we both love them very much and would do our best to hear them and explain things the best we can. My wife then agreed but then went behind my back and talked to them without me and before our family meeting. NOT COOL. 

To be fair. In the beginning we both decided to avoid bringing the kids into it. We felt it might make matters worse and we didnt want them to take sides. Then when it was just getting worse and sloppier (both of us intentionally or unintentionally saying things to the kids we could have said in a different way), in my mind it became a one way street against me. It came down to saying whatever actions brought us here we all have the responsibility to be mature adults and handle it and not avoid it if we want to stay a family. We can't teach our kids that this is normal behaviour. Your family just cant do, not do and say whatever they want to you when I'm not their to defend myself and you then come home all upset and argue. The truth of who did and did not do what is in the texts and the kids are now going to see for themselves. We dont have to speak it to them and have the ability to add tone to sway opinion. The truth is the truth. I eventually gave my phone to my kids.

We just the other day had a real family conversation about everything. My son (almost 19) is very upset with my wife's family and partially my wife but not nearly as much. He told her, we all know what happened. Grandma did lie about stuff. Mom your story keeps changing but Dad's has always been the same. Dad was the only one to try. They didn't. My wife told him he cant feel that way. (I didn't say anything but that's exactly what she said to me when I was upset with her family. She would say I'm not allowed to be mad at them that they're allowed to have their feelings. Now she's telling my son the same thing. Her family can have their feelings but we can't have ours). My daughter said that when I talk to her about it, I make her feel like she has to agree with me. I owned it and said I will try not to do that and to point it out if she feels that way again. I said I am very stubborn if something is black and white or 1 side wont attempt to see both sides whats so ever. Especially family. I also said, yes I can allow that stubbornness get me off track and say things I should not and yes sound persuasive. Thank you for pointing it out. My wife was still defending her family and would only give us that she "can see how they should have responded". But she has to back it up with some explanation. 

Now that I'm getting more and more back to me, I try not to let things burn me. It's not my job to make people have the same values as I have. It is my job to not allow my kids to fall into the same family oriented low self esteem place they put my wife. Sure it hurt finding out this many years later I was putting a large part of me into them not realizing they were putting on a facade. Sure there's that feeling of being fooled and not wise enough to see it. I'll get over it. I'm not going to allow anymore bad energy into me in regards to them anymore. I'll be there for my wife if she allows it or I'll just stand down and allow her the space she needs. She has said it's over for like the 2nd or 3rd time, this time with more conviction so I have to leave it in her hands now. I am working on me now but am also working on being more helpful and nicer to her. At a minimum I hope to teach my daughter and son not to think that it's ok for a boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, wife or in-laws to "place" her or him in some order the they feel fit. And to teach them both to be more open minded, to listen to their partners and to be there for each other. To be a team. I have always taught them that we are a team. I can't let this problem dilute that. My actions early on and further into it have probably confused my daughter. I see it hasn't confused my son. He also told me where I was wrong but he rationally filtered it all. Seems he was the most mature of us all. I'm moving on with me and not chasing my wife or her family anymore. If my wife and I are meant to be, it will fall back in order. 

I was interfering with my wife's family order. I married their sister and daughter. We had a family, we bought a nice house and more property. We nudged each other to grow successfully in our prospective fields. My wife was getting more and more confident and successful at work and in life but now and again there were signs of an outside impression stopping her cold. I wish I would have understood it sooner. My wife has been telling me for years about how they treated her growing up. They would even say "you dont know how hard it was growing up with her (my wife). Sometimes in front of her and times behind her back like during this mess. Thru the years my wife reached out to me time and again about how she was hurt or upset or angry about new things between them and how their response to her made her feel like she did not share the same closeness. How she was "the blacksheep". How she felt her siblings never let her feel the same closeness as they had with each other. Or how the mother would say, "you're your fathers daughter" (they had a not so very nice relationship with their father. They harbor alot of anger toward him). Or how the aunt would treat their mother terribly and have her full blown crying out loud but then she would give them lots of money thru the years. I'm ashamed I just chaulked it up to inner family stuff, none of my business, sibling stuff. 

Another member suggested I read a specific book. I'm almost half way thru it (My bad Tron. Had it, but stubbornly waited to start it.). I would suggest it to everyone. I would say read it before you have issues. Read it when you're younger and it would definitely help avoid issues to begin with and more people would be more wiser and happier. It has really opened my eyes to my failures and ignorance.

Thank you both for your response and have a great day.


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

Update.
So it's been about 10 days since our family meeting (not the sisters meeting. That is tentatively scheduled for August 13 or 14). 

I've been giving my wife her space. I've been polite and cordial. We both have. I've weaned further off the meds and get clearer every week. I help out alot around the house and been back to cleaning up outside (actually for a while now). 

At our meeting we all had a say about how each of us thought about how things escalated and how we wanted it to improve. At one point my daughter walked away stating we were talking over her and she was done. My wife and I both asked her to stay and finish that we need everyone to be a part of it to "fix this". She returned. 

My wife had stated to the kids and me, that the meeting at her sisters house was a chance for everyone to break the ice, have a family day together and eventual times together would get better and better.

Since then we still slept in different rooms, splitting up time in the master bedroom. On one night that I had the MB I told her I was ok with her sleeping in there with me if she wanted to. She said no but thank you. 

Since then things seemed to be getting better. We hung out a few times. Talked alot. I picked up a healthy cookbook to start learning to help in the kitchen (not something I'm known to be good at). I made a great breakfast but she did not want to try it. Probably scared I messed it up. Lol. Cant blame her there. For the record it was awesome. I have noticed that when ever something is said about "her" buying something, she says "I don't want to spend money right now" or "I can't be spending money right now". I'm not sure what to think about that and definitely didn't want the meds have me thinking in the wrong direction, so I always let it go.

Then I think it was Friday or Saturday night she went out drinking with friends and came home drunk. No biggie. She probably needed to let loose with all that's happened. I was on my way to go see a local band before she got home and she texted me saying she would come. When she came home I kinda knew the night would be short. She was very drunk. She said she had like "5 or 6 glasses of wine" (she does not drink wine). We went to the restaurant and watched the band for a while. She said she was freezing. It was cold but she was freezing. She came over from her side of the table and sat next to me. This was great. She ordered a burger and ate. Noticing she could not shake the cold and was not enjoying herself I said let's go. She said are you sure? I said yeah it's fine lets go. She said "I don't want to mess up yr night". I said your not. 

On the way home she passed out in the truck. This is not here norm. Recently she has started to drink more and more. Mostly 1 or 2 shots of whiskey a night or every other night. Sometimes she'll go a few days with none. She'll ask me from time to time to have a shot with her but I try not to because of the meds I'm on. On occasion I'll have 1 with her so we can be together. Sometimes when I don't, she says come have a drink with your wife. A least come over here and hang out with me while I have my mine. Mind you, we are only 10 feet apart in the same room. I say no I really shouldn't. Go ahead. Enjoy yourself. Or sometimes I will just go there and hang for a while.

Yesterday I called a marriage counselor to get some dates we might be able to go to. After my wife was home for little while and the kids were not around. I said, hey I called a marriage counselor. Are you still willing to go to counseling together? (In the beginning of our fiasco I asked her and she said no, she said she had to work on herself first. Then in the middle she asked me and I said no. At our last meeting she brought up the time I said no. I said I don't remember saying no, but I am open to going). So anyway she said no this time again. I said, I thought you were interested in going. I don't remember her exact words but it was along the lines of it being too late. 

I said I thought you wanted it to to help us move forward, be a whole family again. She said "I guess not. I'm sorry". I asked what was going to the meeting at your sisters for than? She said to break the ice. Don't you want to be comfortable to be able to drop your kids off there and pick them up? Mind you we are being very polite, albeit I was very confused again. I said so we're back to selling the house and divorcing again? She said I thought we were going to wait until August 8th after your follow up with your surgeon to see if you will eventually go back to work and then buy me out of my portion of the house? WOW. I was Mindspun again. 

I said I cant buy the house. Even if I go back to work it wouldn't be fair to me to buy you out and then struggle with payments. If I eventually go back to work I'll probably move out of state closer to work if you want a divorce. If I cant work and end up on disability, I'll have to move further north or south out of state to be able to afford to live on the disability payments. She looked puzzled.

I asked her, so how do we do this? The house can take a long time to sell. She replied I guess we just keep doing what we're doing and respect each others space and keep paying off bills like we have been.

Then as we went to bed she says I can sleep with her in the MB if I didn't think it was too weird or if I didn't hate her. She said I know the other bed is very uncomfortable. I said I don't hate you but I'm definitely confused. I tried but tossed and turned all night with an emotional nervousness in my chest and stomach. She watched tv, laughed at the show and went to sleep. I eventually got up around 4:00am and tried to sleep on the couch. 

We both got up around around 5:00am and she was in a good mood, talking to me like everything was normal and did I want a smoothie. She left for work soon after, and me being home feel like I'm in a box and keep looking for something to spark motivation.
Today has definitely been a confused, emotional, twilight zone day. Every time I think we're moving forward, she goes back to divorce. 

I called a different counseling place for myself this morning. If for anything, to help me understand how to move forward. After all the back and forth I don't know which way is up anymore. 

P.S. I have gotten further in the book suggested to me earlier. Although it is good knowledge for singles or men planning on marrying or after divorce, it's not really a book for how to work thru the point I am at. Then again I'm not done reading it.


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

You all have been great and very helpful and I hate to be a pain but does anyone have an idea of what direction I should go in now???

We have recently been nice to each other every day. Go shopping together (she invites me). Goodmorning, goodnight. Hello, did you have a good day. She asked me if I wanted to start sleeping in our bed together again. Stating "as long as you don't think it's weird or hate me. I know the other bed is very uncomfortable". I agreed after stating "I don't hate you but it's definitely confusing".

We had a very short talk 2 nights ago about the future. I told her "I'm sorry you had to deal with the whole mess and I understand you probably felt alone when dealing with me after surgery and especially me on the medicines. It's not fair to have all that put on you". I then asked her "Do I make you feel like you have to make a choice between me or your family? Because That's not at all what I want. I have no hatred or ill will toward your family". She replied "No. I believe you now but I feel you blame them for all of this". I replied, "I don't put all the blame on them. We all had a hand in this whole thing. Mostly thru complacency and lack of communication and not hearing each other and definitely the amount of medicines I was on made things worse. Not something I had any control over until recently". She agreed and said I know. I can see you made alot of progress and are much clearer. That's why I keep saying I know you weren't driving but I still got run over. It drained me". I said if you would read the things I wrote but now write on T.A.B. you might see what I'm thinking better. More so from the most recent things I've written. She said, no I don't want to go on there. I don't want to invade your private thoughts. I replied, I don't mind. I go on there for help and advice. I don't want to hide anything from you. She said no I'm not going on there. 

We talked a little about our own family meeting and how I walked away thinking we both led the kids to believe we wanted to work on making everything better and getting back to being us again. She said she didn't get that from the meeting. It was more to learn how to move on and still be in each others lives for the kids after. I then said, so are we not trying to stay together? She replied " I don't think so. I still love you that's what makes this so hard (she began to cry). But I don't think so". She had 1 shot of whiskey 1 minute before we started talking. and 2 more in the 5 minutes we talked. She then said as she gestured to the whiskey, "no more taking". I said "agreed". 

Since then she seems to be happy and asking me to do things with here and go out at night to events or parties together. This morning she asked me if I wanted to go grocery shopping with her and I did. On the way home we talked about bills and debts we have, our property taxes. etc.. When we got home I said maybe we can give the small landlocked parcel back to the town to save on taxes. She replied it would be more beneficial to keep it for when someone buys the house.

So after all the back and forth. All the acting normal and seeming to be being happier and her still from time to time making comments about us after divorce. And her saying let's just keep doing what we're doing, respect each others space and keep paying off debt. Then going back to wanting to hang out together. What's the right move for me to make. Do I just go along with this? Most times it's like torture laying or being next to her, wanting her in "every" aspect but then hearing her in my mind saying she's changed and she doesn't think she wants us anymore (but The "I don't think so" comes with the face that says No I don't want us, followed by "I'm sorry".) and all the other stuff. 

Compounding my dilemma is, I am still waiting to hear if I need another surgery. Which could take another month and a half to find out and possibly put me on disability with much less income. Or the possibility I can go back to work but not for a few months of more healing. Then I have to consider if I try and keep the house if I can afford to alone or do we sell the house and property, split everything 50/50 including 401k's and try to find a smaller house I can afford?? The kink there is, we bought our house at the most perfect time and to buy a house near where we live at the same price or even close would be a shack. Our house has tripled in value. Although we did refinance to consolidate alot of debt. So with the mortgage including our debt, our equity is probably only a quarter, maybe a third the value of the house.

So coincidentally my wife just called as I am typing to ask me if I could check something for her. I joked "it will cost you" she asked "how much". I said "we'll see after I hear the favor". My wife, "oh so we'll negotiate the price after you know the favor". Me "Yeah". She asks me the favor and I do it and say that wasn't too big of a favor so we'll just go with. I then stated a private code to her that we would use to each other when we wanted to have sex. We would have alot of fun with the code. Sometimes implying one of us was in debt and laugh. Anyway after I used the code, she laughed. 

So what do I do? It seems I have no choice to at least wait to hear what my surgeon says. But what after that? Get a new mortgage in my name, buy the house and give her her 50% in a nice check. Or sell the house and we both walk away with some cash and start over?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

If you can handle it, just sit in a holding pattern.

What she is saying and what she is doing aren't exactly aligning. 

Continue to get healthy and continue to be a good partner. That is, unless you want out and want a divorce. If not, then don't give her more reasons to want you gone.

Sounds like if you want the D then you will have to push it.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

I've given you the road map to saving your family and you chose not to follow it. Now you wife with the support of her family have decided to take everything away from you.

Why do you think she was being nice to you? This is the BIG GOOD BYE, my friend. This is your final meal before walking the green mile. Extra water on the sponge.

Go read my previous post and start taking action. It maybe too late but you should not go down without a fight.


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

Thanks Tron. The book is very insightful.


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

Killerclown, I read your last comments. Problem there was she beat me to the kids. At least my daughter. Not my son. He is older and told her, she and her family were wrong. He told my wife that her story keeps changing but Dad's has never changed. If our family splits up I blame them.

Here's another messed up thing. When we had our own family meeting, my wife had me and the kids convinced that going to the meeting at her sisters this Aug 13 was to break the ice and that the next time would get better and so on. That this meeting is to be the first step to fixing us as a family to get back to us again. 

The other night she denied that that was her intent. I asked my son and he said he kind of got the feeling I explained but wasnt exactly sure. He said "I kind of stopped listening". My daughter today told me she absolutely thought the same as me and went further and said "No, that's not at all what she (my wife) implied. She implied like you said. That's how I took it too". I then explained to my daughter that the other night when you walked in on me and mom talking and mom was crying, she told me the opposite. My daughter fell silent. 

My point being, my wife beat me to the punch as far as isolating at least her family from the kids. She already had us all agree to go the meeting. If I am to salvage your intended plan, I would now have to suggest another family meeting to have her tell the kids what she told me. I already spoke to both kids about my wife saying that was not her intent and they both now know she manipulated us so it might work.

Now I have to figure out how to have another meeting without her going on the defense and making it look like I'm deliberately trying to not go to the meeting and stop the kids as if I dont care about making amends with her family. That's what she has in her head already no matter how many times I tell her otherwise. 

I spoke with someone close to her and who has gone thru something similar. That person explained she is at a crossroads where she wants both so bad that she is creating 2 realities and trying to live in both. That person suggested I ask her if I am making her feel like she needs to choose between me and her family and let her know you are not. That way she will have to realize its either herself creating that reality or her family creating it. If it's her family then she should realize the truth. Then it's up to her to decide how she handles it from there but at least you clear up that your intentions are to heal everyone.

That person also knows her family very well and said they will never apologize or own there share in this issue. They would rather avoid it than admit fault. They have all grown together like this and this is what they believe is normal. They're narcissistic in this way. Each one might give a small complaint to defend themselves against another, but once my wife is alone against them with any problem, she will cave to them. He said she has to get you all to the meeting in part to give authenticity to her other reality. That being like they want her to believe, that they did nothing wrong. He then said sorry to say but if you don't go you lose. By not going you also authenticate the other reality in that it will look like they are trying and you are not. 

I said great so I lose either way. He said maybe but your best chance is to go. Go to show your good intentions. Explain that to the kids without going against their mother. Go and be cordial, polite and even helpful at the party but in small doses. Dont overextend. This will show the kids and your wife you truely want to fix everyone but you're not letting her family off the hook either. That will force them to either shun you and it will be obvious to yr wife and kids or accept you and yr wife will begin to turn back to you. It would be especially effective if the kids speak up about it again like yr son but they may not. they may feel in the middle and that's a very delicate thing. What ever happens you need to step back and take time to digest it all before talking to them after the meeting.


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

So today that same friend I spoke of in the last paragraphs in my reply to KillerClown above, calls me again today. Bad news he said. Your wife called me earlier today. She was basically telling him that we are over and she is having a hard time because she doesn't know or think that I'll want to stay friends. He went on to tell me that what he knows of her family (he knows them longer than me. Over 28 years) and what he's been hearing from all sides is that my wife's family cut me off from the beginning. He said he told my wife that her family wasn't fair to me and didn't handle it like you would expect from family. They went right into cut off without extending a family member the correct courtesy of hearing him out or make any attempt to work it out.

Then he started to explain that after talking with her that it is over. He apologized greatly and explained how he knows them a long time and they'll never turn around. They are forcing her hand to the point of making new realities to herself to get through it. He also suggested talking to the kids. he suggested I be myself and calmly tell them you did not choose this, their moms family chose this by how they handled it. He went further to suggest I explain to them how my wife has been brought up to follow them. They chose this. He then said from there you have to leave it up to the kids. They're old enough. Your daughter is still young and may not understand or see it until later but eventually she will. I said, when it's too late.

I explained to him that my daughter already left today to go away with the aunts family for a week. He said he agreed that by the end of their time together they will be in her good graces and your daughter will stay neutral. He said talk to your son then have another sit down with your wife and kids before going to the meeting at the aunts. Tell the kids then, what happened with the last meeting you guys had and how it was manipulated. Tell them everything we just talked about. About how this is how they (wife's family) act and "they decided this" 

He went on to explain he's been thru it and you will tear yourself up over it if you continue to think it out over and over in your mind (he said he did). You have to learn that this is their reality and as long as they have each other they don't need anyone else. It sucks it's happening to you. I told your wife your'e one of the greatest guys I know and have the greatest character. He said he told her I've been dealt a raw deal. He said you guys have a family and been together for so long and couldnt understand how this thing ended it all. He said he told her I have been medicated through the majority of this and is now waking up to a nightmare. 

He said say that at your own family meeting. 

Anyway. Thanks everyone for your replies.


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

So here it is November 2, 2016. 

August 13th we had the family meeting at my SIL's house. I went to the bathroom and when I came out all the kids were gone. A minute later the sil says their family spoke and want to forget this ever happened and move forward. She said every time we get together again from here will get better and better. 

She asked if anyone else had anything to say and the bil said "no, exactly what you said was perfect". The mil said " I agree with what you said".

I stood up and in short I apologized to each person in the room, face to face for my portion of what happened. They shook their heads or nodded.

The evening of Aug 24th my wife comes and says tomorrow's my mothers birthday and last week my brother and sister said they wanted to take her to a restaurant for her birthday but they said your not invited. Needless to say that went from me asking to what happened to forgetting it and every time we see each other things would get better and better, to her protecting their decision saying it was too early.
The next day I drove my daughter to her work and knowing she heard what happened, I told her she should go to the party to at least see her cousins. She said no. I tried to persuade her but she said to stop talking about it, they're wrong. it's wrong, I'm not going.

The next day my wife asked my daughter if she was going and my daughter said no. My wife continued to push her for a reason why as she would not say why. Finally my daughter told her how she felt. My wife for the first time in our time together absolutely exploded. From across the house she screamed at me that this was my doing. Then she herself ended up not going and blamed me for that too. She would say you didn't want me to go so you got what you wanted. I told her urged our daughter to go. I had no part of your conversation with her. AT a minimum how do you figure I didn't want you to go to your own mothers birthday party?

Up until then things were ok when we worked on them together. After me not me being invited to the party things dropped like a bomb. She went back to things I did 20 years ago, to me saying something about a passing driver, from the smallest to the not so small but things that we got thru together years ago. Now she says she's been lying to herself and never really got over them.

The next day she went to stay with her sister for 4 days. The night she came home she said she thinks we should separate. I told her I was 2 weeks out from a 2nd surgery in 2 years and I wasn't going any where. I said the best I'll do is sleep in our sons room until then.

2 days before me surgery she said she wants a divorce. After my surgery Oct 5th they sent me to a rehabilitation center to make sure you can be mobile enough to be sent home. A few days later she came to visit but started bring up bad junk again. I told her to leave, I'm a few days out of surgery and heavily medicated and you want to argue.

About 5 or 6 days ago I came home . She started talking divorce again about 2 days after I came home. Then after calling the divorce arbitrator she said she talked to on the phone, the secretary told me my wife actually had an appointment and was here about a week ago. 

Since last week she's been between how to split everything up to you love this house let's see if somehow we can make it so you can keep the house to nothing but nice. Going out of her way to cook something every night. Texting me "how are you feeling". My daughter is going around happy go lucky. I feel like this a constant nightmare.

I'm in constant pain, sedated from 5 or 6 different meds and sick on top of it. My head is spinning.


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## Mindspun2 (Mar 23, 2016)

So here it is Dec. 28, 2016. Since my last post my wife and I have slept in separate rooms and are waiting for me to heal so I can finish some projects on the house that I started but was not able to complete due to my injury. We've had 1 realtor come and give us an appraisal on the house. Our plan is to sell the house, divorce and split everything. My daughter will live with her and my son with me.

I've recently learned from me wife that her brother never responded to me calls or texts because he blocked my number months and months ago and my wife knew all along. I said not to argue but if you knew he blocked me, then why would you always defend and argue with me as if he saw them but just didnt answer and I couldn't put a time limit on his feelings? But with all the lies back and forth between her and her family and the lies to themselves from each other, I don't know if it matters what she said after that. 

I've also learned by getting a nasty text from my daughter while I was in the hospital with a dangerous infection after surgery, that my wife told my daughter and called my son while he was in school in S. Korea, that I told her that thy both said they were "against her" and according to my daughter that I made her feel unloved by her kids. 

I was shocked. I learned thru this that they were all capable of not just lieing, but even lieing to each other so not to look wrong and just dumped the blame on me. But I never would have thought my wife of 25 years would stoop so low as to blatantly lie to our kids so they would obviously feel bad for her and of course be angry with me. MInd blown.

I told both my kids those words never, never left my mouth.

When I confronted my wife, she said you did say it. "You probably don't remember because it happened when I went to see you in the rehabilitation center at 6:00am and you just woke up and were heavily medicated. You were so medicated, you were like trying to nail a bowl of jello to a tree." I just couldn't believe it. 

She has become her mother. She (never a wine drinker) is now drinking wine almost every night. My daughter can't stand me and is very nasty. My son (thank God) is staying out of it. Although they both thought it was ok to go to Christmas Eve at the brother inlaws house after hearing I wasn't invited again. I guess I can't blame them though. Their damned if they do and damned if they don't. The reason why I told them to have a good time with their cousins. Their cousins are young and are innocent. 

I now worry for my daughter. The other day my wife came to me and said my daughter is sad about her relationship with her boyfriend. She said his parents are hard on him. He's having a hrad time in school and being short with my daughter sometimes. My wife told my daughter to figure out what she wants and he either likes it or you move on. I think in my head, she's teaching her the wrong way already. Why not tell her to try and talk and be there for him? I mean geez, you just said you understand all he's up against. Why not say hey, I'm not here for you to dump on but I can be here to talk to and be a backboard if you care about me. 

So here we are living together in separate rooms trying to make it bearable until we sell the house and divorce. It burns me inside to be around her now, after seeing how low, dirty and deceitful she has become. All of them. I'm extremely limited physically for now so that adds to the frustration. I'm not working and it will be a few months before I can because of the surgery, so that adds to the frustration. I have no one to talk to because when my family tried the same thing with her about 9 years ago, I wouldn't let them manipulate the situation. I held them to be fair and honest and when they couldn't, I stood by my wife. What a kick in the ass this has all been. 

I can't wait to heal, fix this place and move on. Maybe, down the road, hopefully find that right girl that I can believe and trust in to share life with and be happy. I'll need time to myself to heal my heart and learn to trust again.


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