# Yet another suspicion...



## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

Ok. I am not sure what the means but I'd like some opinions. Three weeks after valentines day I received an end of the year credit card statement. The statements are usually electronic and I have no access to them because it's my husband's account. I noticed a charge to Vermont Teddy Bear two weeks prior to Valentines Day. I got the standard dozen roses and a box of chocolates. When I asked my H he told me that his friend asked him to purchase it for his wife so that she wouldn't see the charge and spoil the surprise. H told me he gave H cash. I then asked where the cash was and H couldn't produce it. Told me it must of gotten stolen out of his car. He told me that if I didn't believe him I can call his friend or his friend's wife to verify. I am FB friends with both. I sent both of them messages through FB at different times simply asking the wife if her H got her a Vermont Teddy Bear for VD. I send the H a message asking of my husband assisted him to get his wife a VTB for VD. Neither have responded. 

Opinions?


----------



## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Yes I would be suspicious...funny that they do not respond either! What stands out to me is if this was true why not say something up front to you about it..so and so asked me to buy this teddy bear for his wife. The fact he said nothing is suspicious to me.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Hmmm...Well it sounds like you have been alerted. The fact that your suspicions have been raised must mean that your H is acting differently as well.

Do you have any gut feelings about his demeanor? Any changes in his attitude? Has copulation frequency changed? If so, how?

Depending on how you answer, you definitely need to gather more evidence.

Act as if nothing is wrong and everything is peachy in the meanwhile.


----------



## carolinadreams (Nov 30, 2012)

Trust your gut! I advocate transparency and boundaries in marriages, since you are feeling some unease your husband should have absolutely no problems letting you look at his Facebook, email, and phone right?


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Your thread title is "yet another suspicion". What else have you been suspicious about?

I think your husband lied to you.


----------



## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

whataboutthis? said:


> I then asked where the cash was and H couldn't produce it. Told me it must of gotten stolen out of his car.


Did he tell you the dog ate his homework also?

Stolen out of his car means: (1) he left his car unlocked, and (2) he left the cash sitting out in plain sight in the car. An unlikely combination.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

carolinadreams said:


> Trust your gut! I advocate transparency and boundaries in marriages, since you are feeling some unease your husband should have absolutely no problems letting you look at his Facebook, email, and phone right?


:iagree:


----------



## northland (Apr 13, 2012)

His explanations make no sense and your mutual friends don't want to get involved.

Since this is only one of at least one more suspicious action I suggest you start digging but don't keep asking him questions every time you find something because he won't tell you the truth and it will put him on guard and make it much more difficult to catch him.


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I think he's lying too but he's very very bad at it.

I would have just told you I spent the cash.


----------



## workindad (May 7, 2011)

OP, how long has it been since you contacted the other persons?

This is suspect, to me anyway, but I would look farther into it before tipping my hand too much.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

How much was the charge for the teddy bear?


I wonder if you have enough info to be able to call the company and find out where the bear was shipped to. The charge might have the order number on it.

Just a thought.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> How much was the charge for the teddy bear?
> 
> 
> I wonder if you have enough info to be able to call the company and find out where the bear was shipped to. The charge might have the order number on it.
> ...


Yes, call V.T. with the credit card info and say you never got the Teddy Bear. They might tell you who signed for, etc...


----------



## adv (Feb 26, 2011)

This struck me as an unneeded/knee jerk excuse on your husband's part "Told me it must of gotten stolen out of his car". I don't know about anyone else here but I usually use my debit card instead of carrying cash but if I have cash in my wallet, I'll use that. He could have just said I spent it on such-and-such or something else plausible. 

Did his car show signs that it was broken into? Was anything else missing? Does he normally leave cash in his car? Does he usually leave his car unlocked? Would he if he left money in it? etc...

I guess I'm also curious what other suspicions you have that this one triggered you like it did.


----------



## roostr (Oct 20, 2012)

All I can tell you is people tend to clam up when they are asked things that might bag someone. I can tell you through my current experience that you should absolutely trust your feeling, because like a lot of people say, your gut is usually right. I just learned that the hard way, gl2u.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

roostr said:


> All I can tell you is people tend to clam up when they are asked things that might bag someone. I can tell you through my current experience that you should absolutely trust your feeling, because like a lot of people say, your gut is usually right. I just learned that the hard way, gl2u.


I think if someone had stolen money out of my car I might have gave my wife a heads-up about it before she asked about the Teddy Bear. "Honey, make sure you lock your car doors at night, because..."


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

My STBXH told me that an ATM transaction (that appeared on our bank statement) at a strip club was actually just him going in to the club to use the ATM to get his car washed. Well, no, first it was a tattoo and a video (he did get a tattoo around that time but I knew the parlor he got it done at), then it was a carwash. As in a full detail, hand car wash. At 8.30pm. In early April when it is still cold and dark at that time. 

Turns out that this was one of many strip club visits over the years, and he has had 2 affairs with 2 different co-workers spanning almost 2.5 years (that I know of). 

Yeah... you might want to keep an eye on this.


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

Oh, and did I mention it was about 10 days after I had given birth to our first and only child? Yeah...


----------



## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

whataboutthis? said:


> Ok. I am not sure what the means but I'd like some opinions. Three weeks after valentines day I received an end of the year credit card statement. The statements are usually electronic and I have no access to them because it's my husband's account. I noticed a charge to Vermont Teddy Bear two weeks prior to Valentines Day. I got the standard dozen roses and a box of chocolates. When I asked my H he told me that his friend asked him to purchase it for his wife so that she wouldn't see the charge and spoil the surprise. H told me he gave H cash. I then asked where the cash was and H couldn't produce it. Told me it must of gotten stolen out of his car. He told me that if I didn't believe him I can call his friend or his friend's wife to verify. I am FB friends with both. I sent both of them messages through FB at different times simply asking the wife if her H got her a Vermont Teddy Bear for VD. I send the H a message asking of my husband assisted him to get his wife a VTB for VD. Neither have responded.
> 
> Opinions?


Doesn't look good.

On its face, originally, buying it for a friend so his wife wouldn't know, and being paid in cash, sounds somewhat reasonable. If the friend's wife handled the bills and received an email/text alert for every purchase made on the card, it would make sense. It's not the kind of thing you could pay for in cash.

The "cash got stolen out of the car" would be quite a coincidence.

The non-response from friend and wife makes it even worse.

Can you check on the phone bill to see if your husband is calling/texting anyone frequently? Look at his email? Browsing history? Any unaccounted for time or other reasons you think something funny is going on?


----------



## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> How much was the charge for the teddy bear?
> 
> 
> I wonder if you have enough info to be able to *call the company and find out where the bear was shipped to*. The charge might have the order number on it.
> ...


Do this if you can.


----------



## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

Thanks everyone. This actually happened a while ago and I dismissed it. After a few years I found other things (dating site portfolios and escort emails in his contacts list). About six months ago I contacted the wife and got no response. Last week I emailed the husband and got no response. Met with my H today to discuss his therapy session for sexual addiction and I told him that I contacted his friends and asked him if there was something he needed to tell me. Right now I'm seeking full transparency with him. He got mad and called his friend and put the phone on speaker phone. His friend said my H did indeed get the teddy bear for him and even sent a pic of a bear. So, now I feel shallow. I hate being put in this situation. But I don't know why they didn't answer me directly. With that said I'm feeling a bit low right now.


----------



## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

I would say go with your gut. You have reason to doubt. I would just keep my eyes and my ears open. trust but verify


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

whataboutthis? said:


> Thanks everyone. This actually happened a while ago and I dismissed it. After a few years I found other things (dating site portfolios and escort emails in his contacts list). About six months ago I contacted the wife and got no response. Last week I emailed the husband and got no response. Met with my H today to discuss his therapy session for sexual addiction and I told him that I contacted his friends and asked him if there was something he needed to tell me. Right now I'm seeking full transparency with him. He got mad and called his friend and put the phone on speaker phone. His friend said my H did indeed get the teddy bear for him and even sent a pic of a bear. So, now I feel shallow. I hate being put in this situation. But I don't know why they didn't answer me directly. With that said I'm feeling a bit low right now.


They are covering for him. Otherwise they'd have replied right away? :scratchhead:


----------



## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

whataboutthis? said:


> Thanks everyone. This actually happened a while ago and I dismissed it. After a few years I found other things (dating site portfolios and escort emails in his contacts list). About six months ago I contacted the wife and got no response. Last week I emailed the husband and got no response. Met with my H today to discuss his therapy session for sexual addiction and I told him that I contacted his friends and asked him if there was something he needed to tell me. Right now I'm seeking full transparency with him. He got mad and called his friend and put the phone on speaker phone. His friend said my H did indeed get the teddy bear for him and even sent a pic of a bear. So, now I feel shallow. I hate being put in this situation. But I don't know why they didn't answer me directly. With that said I'm feeling a bit low right now.


Hoooboy! He played you nicely - at least I think he did. Don't you think it would be easy to ask the friend to do him a solid and lie? It's not hard to get any old teddy-bear. 

It would be more convincing if you heard the WIFE tell you she received it in the mail on V-day. And did he show you a police report for the theft? Didn't think so.


----------



## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

walkonmars said:


> Hoooboy! He played you nicely - at least I think he did. Don't you think it would be easy to ask the friend to do him a solid and lie? It's not hard to get any old teddy-bear.
> 
> It would be more convincing if you heard the WIFE tell you she received it in the mail on V-day. And did he show you a police report for the theft? Didn't think so.


Thanks. I've been dealing with so much trickle truth and heart felt convicted denial my brain is a pile of spaghetti. I have no reasoning left. The thing is this happened a while ago and I just (within the last 6 months) followed up with them. H didn't know I emailed them and the call was done impromptu in front of me tonight. So, if his friend was covering for him it would have had to have been on the fly versus preplanned. Unless he gave the friend a heads up a while ago when it happened. Again, my brain is mush. The thing that made this incident important is that the other evidence I have found he has dismissed as fantasy. If I was able to disprove his story about this gift it would have proved that infidelity indeed took place. Do you still think he pulled one over on me?


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

You need to call the company, explain that you were going throught your personal finances and saw a charge you were not familiar with. Explain that you did not receive any such item. See what they say.

As someone who has dealt with a VERY shady H, one that has lied to me... pretty much since day one of our marriage, TRUST YOUR GUT! If I had trusted my instinct and not allowed myself to be "gaslighted", I would have left years ago, before the complication of children and while I still had my successful career in media and was not financially dependent on him (everything in our marriage was about ME sacrificing - moved away from my family to be with him, started my life all over to be with him, gave up my career when we had a child, etc.)

Play it cool and keep your eyes and ears open. There IS a chance you are blowing this out of proportion HOWEVER... couple this event with the dating sites and escorts... this is NEVER a good combo. My STBXH started with porn and porn chat groups, which were explained as "someone hacked into our computer". Then the first strip club ATM was explained away as "I went to the liquor store next door and the strip club is owned by the same owner" (there is no liquor store next to the strip club). Repeat similar instances over and over and I have just described the last ten years of my life, with the last 2.5 actually involving real life women, whom he SWEARS he never touched, but yet had all the opportunity in the world as he works 3 hours away from home and the headquarters of the company he works for is in the next state so he was away quite often on "business". 

There is a thread here about evidence gathering - READ IT! Above all, and this is hard because when you discover crap like this you want to rip their heads off, but *keep as calm as you can. Gather your evidence. Don't show your hand.*

I truly hope that the picture your H has painted is true, because I HATE infidelity, but based on my own personal experiences and on reading other posts on TAM, this story sounds all too familiar.

Stay strong!


----------



## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

You didn't tell him you emailed them. That's different from "he didn't know you emailed them".

Don't you think his friend said "Hey pal, look at the email your wife sent me".
So yeah, the plan could have been made a long time ago.


----------



## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

walkonmars said:


> You didn't tell him you emailed them. That's different from "he didn't know you emailed them".
> 
> Don't you think his friend said "Hey pal, look at the email your wife sent me".
> So yeah, the plan could have been made a long time ago.


This is true. Thanks. I think it comes down to one thing. Trust. Do I trust him? Apparently not. There's been cyber infidelity at the very least (I say the very least because there were contact with escorts and a paid subscription to AM which suggests physical infidelity) and many lies. So, I guess I have to just stop focusing in incidences like this and come to the realization that there's no trust left. I guess that says it all. Everything is circumstantial and I find suspicions every where. With that said, I have never been a suspicious person. But I guess he's brought out the best in me. Sigh...


----------



## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

ScorchedEarth said:


> You need to call the company, explain that you were going throught your personal finances and saw a charge you were not familiar with. Explain that you did not receive any such item. See what they say.
> 
> As someone who has dealt with a VERY shady H, one that has lied to me... pretty much since day one of our marriage, TRUST YOUR GUT! If I had trusted my instinct and not allowed myself to be "gaslighted", I would have left years ago, before the complication of children and while I still had my successful career in media and was not financially dependent on him (everything in our marriage was about ME sacrificing - moved away from my family to be with him, started my life all over to be with him, gave up my career when we had a child, etc.)
> 
> ...


I'm sending you a pm if that's ok.


----------



## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

Sure.


----------



## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

Update...I just heard from the wife. She sent a cryptic message to me and I'm not sure what it means. A year ago I sent her a message on FB asking her if her husband bought her the teddy bear for Valentine's Day. She didn't respond for a year and then I get this response to my message from her last night. It said, "we are just helping out our friends". Keep in mind my H just called her H and he corroborated the story on speaker phone so I could hear. Any opinions as to what this may mean?


----------



## JustGrinding (Oct 26, 2012)

whataboutthis? said:


> Thanks. I've been dealing with so much trickle truth and heart felt convicted denial my brain is a pile of spaghetti. I have no reasoning left.


This is the express purpose of Gaslighting.


----------



## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

JustGrinding said:


> This is the express purpose of Gaslighting.


Thanks. I know he's been gaslighting me. I'm looking for proof to keep my mind from being swayed by the gaslighting. What are your thoughts of my last post (the wife's response to my email)? To me this states that she doesn't want to be involved in the destruction of a marriage, but she's telling me that the H and she are covering for him. I want to know if I am interpreting this correctly. Chances are this is the only thing I'm gonna get from either of them.

Thanks so much.


----------



## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

Her response to you was rather um....unclear! I would ask her what she means by that?

My thinking is that when they got emails from you they contacted your WH and he told them he might have to call and prove it to you in the near future. If the bear wasnt for the friends wife he could have taken a picture from anywhere and sent that to you playing it off as their own bear. Im just saying dont believe everything you hear and only half of what you see!


----------



## brokenhearted118 (Jan 31, 2013)

I suggest writing her back and saying the following: 

I did not understand what you meant in your reply back to me? Could you please explain.

You could always play the "wife to wife card" and ask her to please share with you what she knows. (she surely would want to know if it was her H) I would assure her you will not use her name as your source and instead say you verified with Vermont TB Co. I say trust your gut..it is telling you things for a reason.


----------



## brokenhearted118 (Jan 31, 2013)

One more thought. Do you have the pic of the teddy bear that the other H sent? Ask Vermont TB Co. to send you a pic of their bears or go on the website and see if it is a match to what they offer/sell. Their inventory may change, but if they could screen capture the order, maybe the pic of the bear would be included and you could match them up. 

On a slightly funny note: It is hard to believe we are now forced into tracking down teddy bears due to cheating spouses. What is this world coming to??? I remember when a teddy bear was a comfort novelty. Uggghhhh!


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I would also ask for clarification on the message, very cryptic.

If you still have the pic of the Teddy Bear run a Google Images search for Vermont Teddy bear and see if you can match it with what came up.
If you find a match but are uncertain post both pics somewhere and PM the link to me.

I have some experience with digital imaging and may be able to help in determining if they are the same pic for sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

Thanks everyone. H did not forward the pic to me. When I brought the incident up he got angry with me and told me to "get out of his house". Then he called his friend and he upheld the story. If I ask for the pic it will be another fight. I just don't want to go there. I responded to the W and thanked her for her email. I told her that this is not the only incident and I apologized for asking and involving them but I needed to know. I then asked for clarification of her message. FB says the message was read last night and I haven't received a response. I'm thinking of waiting a week and if I don't hear anything sending a message to her stating that I am interpreting her message as she doesn't want to get involved and she doesn't want to be part of harming a marriage. That leads me to believe that they are covering for my H. And if I don't receive a response that will be my interpretation but I will assure her that I will not reveal what she divulges to me. I'm using this simply to make life decisions. Thoughts?


----------



## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

whataboutthis? said:


> Update...I just heard from the wife. She sent a cryptic message to me and I'm not sure what it means. A year ago I sent her a message on FB asking her if her husband bought her the teddy bear for Valentine's Day. She didn't respond for a year and then I get this response to my message from her last night. It said, "we are just helping out our friends". Keep in mind my H just called her H and he corroborated the story on speaker phone so I could hear. Any opinions as to what this may mean?


I took that as Helping out our friends keep HIS Marriage.. He went to them and beg and pleaded. Told them how fvcked up he is and his friend convinced his wife to go along. 

So basically they both teamed up on the wife. She hesitantly went along. It was one of those *"Okay, BUT this is the first and last time I will ever do this."* 

Call them up and ask for the delivery address. Get your answers and be done with this.. 
The company who delivered the item will give you the straight answer. It seems like you really don't want to hear the truth. 

End result your either right or wrong.. You caught him lying so its not like your out of line with this.

A good friend had an affair. That was 7 years ago. Still today he is transparent. If he tells his wife he was eating lunch in the office and we go out he tells his wife I'm out with soandso and going to a diner to eat. She always says why are you telling me and I hear him say because I wanted you to know and not be worried. 

My wife was doing wrong and never, ever told me what she was doing because she was doing wrong. Her answer was she was trying. What she meant was trying to fvck around behind my back even after I knew.. 

This is war and atm your husband is the enemy. Crush him into submission and make him beg for his life.. When he is on the floor begging, b1tch slap him just to let him know who the boss is now..

AND THEN 

Rip those *so called* friends of yours apart, because it seems they are *HIS* friends and *NOT* yours.. Let others know what a POS they are and how they help people cover up affairs..

I'm telling you if he lied and you find out the truth, you should be running around like one of those indians in the movies yelling and yelping carrying war scalps around in his bloody hands..

That he lied and then convinced others to lie for him is even worse then the lie itself. 

My own kids caught my wife lying and it sucks I have to tell them their mom is wrong. But I used it as a learning lesson not to lie and what happens when you lie regardless of your age..

Go forth and conquer.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Right 

They're lying and covering each other all of them - clear as the nose on your face 

Take control be a beast about it. 

1/Ask for the bear, ask for paperwork, check out every possibility about it EVERYTHING tell them all your are going to get to the bottom of all of it one way or another 

Let them know you will never leave this alone until you get the truth 
They will get more and more uneasy and even ridicule you BUT stick to your guns and then here's an absolute guarantee - one of them will either fk up or front up 

2/Grill the wife on her lack of communication she's the weak one in this and I bet under pressure will eventually crack

He thinks he's being clever but doesn't realize that with each and every lie he is lessening your chances of remaining together as you'll begin to hate the fact that he keeps lying through his teeth about it all and is putting you through hell


----------



## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

brokenhearted118 said:


> One more thought. Do you have the pic of the teddy bear that the other H sent? Ask Vermont TB Co. to send you a pic of their bears or go on the website and see if it is a match to what they offer/sell. Their inventory may change, but if they could screen capture the order, maybe the pic of the bear would be included and you could match them up.
> 
> On a slightly funny note: It is hard to believe we are now forced into tracking down teddy bears due to cheating spouses. What is this world coming to??? I remember when a teddy bear was a comfort novelty. Uggghhhh!





Hardtohandle said:


> I took that as Helping out our friends keep HIS Marriage.. He went to them and beg and pleaded. Told them how fvcked up he is and his friend convinced his wife to go along.
> 
> So basically they both teamed up on the wife. She hesitantly went along. It was one of those *"Okay, BUT this is the first and last time I will ever do this."*
> 
> ...


Thanks. That's exactly how I took it. I desperately want to know. I contacted the company already and since it was purchased in 2007 and I don't have the credit card number they couldn't help me. It was my H's credit card back in 2007. We have moved from Hawaii to SC and the account has been closed. I checked our files for statements on that account and couldn't find any. I wish I had dealt with this when it happened. It would be much easier but at the time I had no reason to suspect infidelity and I believed him. All I had was my H's name and address and they said they have several people on file with the same name and no address match. He could have used any address and I do not know the friend's address at the time. They have moved several times from state to state since retirement. So that's a dead end. All I have to go on is the communication with the friends.


----------



## Louise7 (Nov 8, 2012)

whataboutthis? said:


> Thanks everyone. H did not forward the pic to me. When I brought the incident up he got angry with me and told me to "get out of his house". Then he called his friend and he upheld the story. If I ask for the pic it will be another fight. I just don't want to go there. I responded to the W and thanked her for her email. I told her that this is not the only incident and I apologized for asking and involving them but I needed to know. I then asked for clarification of her message. FB says the message was read last night and I haven't received a response. I'm thinking of waiting a week and if I don't hear anything sending a message to her stating that I am interpreting her message as she doesn't want to get involved and she doesn't want to be part of harming a marriage. That leads me to believe that they are covering for my H. And if I don't receive a response that will be my interpretation but I will assure her that I will not reveal what she divulges to me. I'm using this simply to make life decisions. Thoughts?


Your husband is lying and so are these 'friends.' And where does he get off on telling you to get out of his house???

I was gaslighted by my ex for a lot of years so I know cow dung when I smell it.

I would apologise profusely to your husband for doubting his story about the bear...and then:

Keylog the computer
Spyware his phone
Let him think you trust him, that you are remorseful and a good little girl who believes everything he says.
Gather the evidence produced by 1 and 2 above and then slide divorce papers across the table which will clearly demonstrate that *his* house can actually be all* yours *by the time your lawyer has finished with him.

I'm sorry for you, really I am but creatures without backbones need stamping on.


----------



## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

Louise7 said:


> Your husband is lying and so are these 'friends.' And where does he get off on telling you to get out of his house???
> 
> I was gaslighted by my ex for a lot of years so I know cow dung when I smell it.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I have no access to his phone or computer. I have moved out of our marital home because when he gave me access to his computer (after 8 years of passwords and lockdown) I found escorts in his email and a paid subscription to ****** ******* married dating site. Plus numerous aliases and deleted email accounts. He deleted almost everything when he gave me his passwords. He changed his passwords when I left him (after he lied and gaslighted me for months). So I am at the end of the data collection trail and this teddy bear thing was like a gift. Finally an answer! If I can get it...


----------



## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

You know, call me crazy, but he has been trying to convince me that the cyber infidelity was only fantasy and he never crossed the line by having an affair. But he lied over and over again and used every emotionally abusive tactic in the book to rug sweep. Also his stories do not add up. My gut just can't believe him. I suspect he is a serial cheater. Yet I have no proof. And even though my gut is screaming this at me, he is emotionally wearing me down by pleading his innocence and making me feel like I am destroying him. If I can prove this teddy bear thing it means that his infidelity is not just fantasy, it is real. Furthermore it will give me what I need to realize that he is lying about everything. I will no longer fall for his emotional pleading and I will be able to move forward in my life and seek a divorce. Sounds crazy I know...it all hinges on a damn teddy bear. lol...


----------



## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

whataboutthis? said:


> You know, call me crazy, but he has been trying to convince me that the cyber infidelity was only fantasy and he never crossed the line by having an affair. But he lied over and over again and used every emotionally abusive tactic in the book to rug sweep. Also his stories do not add up. My gut just can't believe him. I suspect he is a serial cheater. Yet I have no proof. And even though my gut is screaming this at me, he is emotionally wearing me down by pleading his innocence and making me feel like I am destroying him. If I can prove this teddy bear thing it means that his infidelity is not just fantasy, it is real. Furthermore it will give me what I need to realize that he is lying about everything. I will no longer fall for his emotional pleading and I will be able to move forward in my life and seek a divorce. *Sounds crazy I know...it all hinges on a damn teddy bear. lol.*..


Well then.... 

You can email the W again, since you got a rather vague response the last time. Tell her that THIS time, you want the truth and the whole truth. She can kindly respond to your request now in a clear and direct manner, or she can discuss it with your attorney after you have filed for D. Let her know that she is not being accused of anything except withholding information from you, and you may want her statement "under oath". So which is it? She tell you the truth now, or she can tell your attorney the truth under oath later. Totally up to her which coarse she takes, but it will be much easier for her to tell you the truth now rather than later.

You can rephrase this anyway you like so that it sounds natural for you, but you are challenging her to tell you the truth because that is what you want. The truth. One way or the other.


----------



## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

whataboutthis? said:


> You know, call me crazy, but he has been trying to convince me that the cyber infidelity was only fantasy and he never crossed the line by having an affair. But he lied over and over again and used every emotionally abusive tactic in the book to rug sweep. Also his stories do not add up. My gut just can't believe him. I suspect he is a serial cheater. Yet I have no proof. And even though my gut is screaming this at me, he is emotionally wearing me down by pleading his innocence and making me feel like I am destroying him. If I can prove this teddy bear thing it means that his infidelity is not just fantasy, it is real. Furthermore it will give me what I need to realize that he is lying about everything. I will no longer fall for his emotional pleading and I will be able to move forward in my life and seek a divorce. Sounds crazy I know...it all hinges on a damn teddy bear. lol...


 Cheater rule number 1: convince your spouse that what the spouse believes does not matter, and that something only happened if the cheater admits to it happening. Cheater rule number 2: set the standard of proof such that logic cannot be applied, and that the only proof that can be used is proof so irrefutable that logic is not required. Cheater rule number 3: admit to nothing, thus if you apply rules numbers 1 and 2, the spouse wastes their time trying to gather endless evidence, instead of addressing the cheating. Cheater rule number 4: only the cheater’s definition of cheating matters, thus what constitutes cheating never applies to what the cheater did. Cheater rule number 5: get angry and yell if the spouse challenges any of the above cheater rules.

@OP: you will never address the issue of his cheating as long as you let him yell you into following the above cheater rules. You have enough evidence of cheating. Cyber cheating is cheating. Going to lots of escort sites, logically proves that he is interested in using escorts. Stop letting him tell you how to think. Stop letting him yell at you when you bring this up and yell back. Remember, what you think matters, and that you are the one that should be mad and yelling not him.


----------



## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

TRy said:


> Cheater rule number 1: convince your spouse that what the spouse believes does not matter, and that something only happened if the cheater admits to it happening. Cheater rule number 2: set the standard of proof such that logic cannot be applied, and that the only proof that can be used is proof so irrefutable that logic is not required. Cheater rule number 3: admit to nothing, thus if you apply rules numbers 1 and 2, the spouse wastes their time trying to gather endless evidence, instead of addressing the cheating. Cheater rule number 4: only the cheater’s definition of cheating matters, thus what constitutes cheating never applies to what the cheater did. Cheater rule number 5: get angry and yell if the spouse challenges any of the above cheater rules.
> 
> @OP: you will never address the issue of his cheating as long as you let him yell you into following the above cheater rules. You have enough evidence of cheating. Cyber cheating is cheating. Going to lots of escort sites, logically proves that he is interested in using escorts. Stop letting him tell you how to think. Stop letting him yell at you when you bring this up and yell back. Remember, what you think matters, and that you are the one that should be mad and yelling not him.


You are right. All these cheater rules have been deployed against me. I have left but he's driving me crazy emotionally. I need to just stand on what I know and go forward with my life at this point. Easier said than done when I get 20 "l miss you" texts a day. But I need to realize that I don't want this in my life and move forward. Thanks for the reality slap. I needed it. :whip:


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Mmm to be frank I feel your are not seeing the wood for the trees here and understandably so as its a bastard position the cheater always puts you in

Listen you don't need any damn teddy bear for me you have enough to be simple about it.They have made the teddy bear the issue it has become and it's as clear as day why they have, so.......

"Basically if there's any relationship left to have you had better start talking proper truths now or we're done and that's that. I know there is more than you've given me and unless I get it you are leaving and we will be divorced - your choice " 

Poor bloody Teddy bear - what did he do wrong - even he gets the blame !


----------



## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

Headspin said:


> Mmm to be frank I feel your are not seeing the wood for the trees here and understandably so as its a bastard position the cheater always puts you in
> 
> Listen you don't need any damn teddy bear for me you have enough to be simple about it.They have made the teddy bear the issue it has become and it's as clear as day why they have, so.......
> 
> ...


Thanks. You made me chuckle. I gave him the truth or divorce ultimatum already. He maintained he was telling me the truth so I left. That was five weeks ago. I've stopped expecting the truth from him. He'll go to his grave with his secrets. I just have to be content with the evidence I have and proceed through divorce. I was hoping to have hard evidence but this is as solid as it gets...


----------



## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

Liar, liar, pants in flames!!! Seriously, I am so tired of ridiculous excuses and answers. Such as: "I set it up but I never used that email account" I forgot the password", "I looked at it but I didn't bookmark it, I don't know how that happened". - It reminded me of the time I found cigarettes in our teenagers car tears ago and he claimed they were not his, he was keeping him for a friend" and of course the biggest lie when asked why "I don't know"


----------



## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

PamJ said:


> Liar, liar, pants in flames!!! Seriously, I am so tired of ridiculous excuses and answers. Such as: "I set it up but I never used that email account" I forgot the password", "I looked at it but I didn't bookmark it, I don't know how that happened". - It reminded me of the time I found cigarettes in our teenagers car tears ago and he claimed they were not his, he was keeping him for a friend" and of course the biggest lie when asked why "I don't know"


Sounds like you've been through it too.


----------



## totallyunexpected (Nov 21, 2012)

whataboutthis? said:


> Thanks. I have no access to his phone or computer. I have moved out of our marital home because when he gave me access to his computer (after 8 years of passwords and lockdown) I found escorts in his email and a paid subscription to ****** ******* married dating site. Plus numerous aliases and deleted email accounts. He deleted almost everything when he gave me his passwords. He changed his passwords when I left him (after he lied and gaslighted me for months). So I am at the end of the data collection trail and this teddy bear thing was like a gift. Finally an answer! If I can get it...


Why do you need this damn teddy bear to prove what you already know? Who are you trying to prove anyway? 

I think the Teddy bear is just a symbolic thing at this point. Yes it would feel good to know the truth about it - but you have plenty of truth about your husband's activities beyond this issue. Escorts in his email? A PAID subscription to MARRIED dating sites? And on top of that he tells you to "get out of MY house"! Honestly, he sounds very emotionally abusive. I've known serial cheaters - my own husband - but he sounds cruel on top of that. Please save yourself, just get out of such a miserable state. File for divorce. That's my take. Best of luck no matter what you do.


----------



## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

totallyunexpected said:


> Why do you need this damn teddy bear to prove what you already know? Who are you trying to prove anyway?
> 
> I think the Teddy bear is just a symbolic thing at this point. Yes it would feel good to know the truth about it - but you have plenty of truth about your husband's activities beyond this issue. Escorts in his email? A PAID subscription to MARRIED dating sites? And on top of that he tells you to "get out of MY house"! Honestly, he sounds very emotionally abusive. I've known serial cheaters - my own husband - but he sounds cruel on top of that. Please save yourself, just get out of such a miserable state. File for divorce. That's my take. Best of luck no matter what you do.


Thanks. My other thread "stuck in the land of I simply do not believe you" speaks to why I feel I need to get something that proves it's beyond his explanation of fantasy. He's emotionally driving me insane, pleading his innocence and confessing his love for me. If I had something that proved it went beyond fantasy I could stop this without him emotionally playing me. I know I just need to be strong and go with what I know. But, dang, some proof would really make life easier. Lol. Thanks so much.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

whataboutthis? said:


> some proof would really make life easier.


I bet you already have the proof. Whether it is the teddy bear or one of the computer trails. The problem is you keep asking *him* about those things, so you are getting his gas lighting.

Instead, try thinking quietly about what *you* know about those events.

For me it helped to talk to my sister and her ex-fiance. He, btw, was a serial cheater (and she dumped him). They more than confirmed my feelings and thoughts about things, they told me I was making less out of it than was obvious.

It is the pattern, too, which helps inform you. If the only blip was the teddy bear you wouldn't even think twice about it, you'd totally believe his story. Now maybe that story is true, too, idk. But there is enough of a pattern in all of his behavior to make his words a contradiction. Which is itself a pattern to recognize: his actions and his words are not congruent.

So you are not crazy. Maybe you are missing just one piece of information which would make all the pieces fall into place. But more likely, and what you have to come to terms with, is you will never have all the information and he will never admit to affairs even if there were any.


----------



## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

Thor said:


> I bet you already have the proof. Whether it is the teddy bear or one of the computer trails. The problem is you keep asking *him* about those things, so you are getting his gas lighting.
> 
> Instead, try thinking quietly about what *you* know about those events.
> 
> ...


So true. So true.


----------

