# Needs



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

In discussing the topic of needs with a friend, it was suggested to me that while it's a good idea to communicate one's needs to their spouse it's unreasonable to expect that spouse has to fulfill said needs.

I think it's reasonable to expect certain needs to be fulfilled in a marriage. But where the line of reasonable ends is subjective.

Example: it is reasonable to expect some sex in your marriage. But how reasonable is it to expect that it always be appropriately enthusiastic? What if one's need is bondage.....is spouse to be expected to fulfill this?

Another non sex example: what if my need is to get weekly flowers from my hb's? Can he be expected to fulfill this need? 

One other thing: when a spouse is fulfilling the other spouse's needs are they required to be appropriately enthusiastic? Does my hb have to be appropriately excited about bringing me weekly flowers?

The topic is needs and to what extent a spouse should be expected to fulfill them. I mean this to include needs in general, not just sexual needs.

Discuss.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

The true topic within the topic of this conversation is expectation and expectation management.

I am wrestling with this very thing right now. Frankly, I have been for a few years. Do I really have a right to expect anything from my spouse?

Or any person for that matter?

Aren't expectations truly the foundation disappointment?

My wife certainly carries high expectations for me. I'm expected to open doors for her, treat her like a lady, date her, perform various acts of service, listen to her vent, take initiative in showing her non-sexual affection, maintain certain things in the household, and the list goes on. While I feel I do a pretty fine job at these things, she still experiences disappointment with me in various things.

Of course, we wouldn't want to remain married to somebody who doesn't take action to help us feel special. Where I struggle is finding balance, and whether either partner should have any expectation at all.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> The true topic within the topic of this conversation is *expectation and expectation management.*


This is easy for me.

If I expect to get nookie then I must first deliver to her "the cookie". As she describes it.

When young, the cookies were kept out of reach...or hidden.

A wife who does not clearly lay out her expectations or continues to move the cookies [as in goal posts] will never be satisfied, hence and thus, the husband never getting nookie.

And once the nookie is [finally] in hand, it is stale, and is wearysome. Hence and thus, spurned by the husband.

If you have to work very hard for something that should come natural, you roll over and go to sleep.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Life is short.

Let us do what if's...nothing more is inferred.

I skirted over the details in your pudding.

You like vanilla, I like vanilla.

You like making out on a ledge on the tallest building in Manhattan, I am game.

The game is the goal. Having game gets you the goal.

The goal would be keeping you happy and exclusive to me.


----------



## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

I actually touched on this in another thread the other day. Yes there should be and need to be certain expectations in a marriage as far as home and family responsibilities, but other than that I don't think there should be any expectations of one another. Expecting anything from the other whether it's sexual or little gifts and gestures can only lead to disappointment when they're not met which will only lead to other problems down the line. I myself used to have too many expectations of my wife. When they weren't being met it started to make me feel that she just wasn't into me anymore which lead me to start to withdraw myself some and things just snowballed from there on both sides. After talking with my wife I found that she felt the same as me which is what made her withdraw as well. We are both working on dropping pretty much all expectations of each other other than home and family and honestly things have gotten much better between us. If something is going to happen or be done it's going to either way. If a partner feels they are expected to do something than it's almost like they're being forced to do it and no one gets any satisfaction or happiness out of feeling forced to do anything.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> The true topic within the topic of this conversation is expectation and expectation management.
> 
> I am wrestling with this very thing right now. Frankly, I have been for a few years. Do I really have a right to expect anything from my spouse?
> 
> ...


And the beat goes on.

For you, the beatings continue. Oh, I know. She lays not a boned finger on you....and that is the crux of the non-flux in your marriage.

Maybe one day your sub will surface in..........Greenland.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I struggle with expectations because I have FOO issues that cause me to really not want to be where I'm not wanted.

So anything not freely given is not worth having, in my damaged world. 

Because of this I struggle to even ask for what I want, let alone make expectations clear. I always feel like if I had to make an issue of it then it's not freely given and i don't want it. 

It's something I'm still struggling with..... emotionally I'm quite high maintenance. My hb deserves kudos for putting up with it.


----------



## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

For me, bottom line is it is wonderful to get any and all needs met but I'm not going to leave if I don't so I just have to deal with unmet needs as best I can. So far H has done great with meeting my primary needs except for one, so there is no resentment in the picture. Some needs go unmet no matter how much I discuss so I just let them go and accept that they won't be met. One of the main needs that goes unmet is his AWFUL communication habits when on travel, and he travels a lot. I've just let it go. 

I try to meet all of his needs but I'm sure I fall short in some areas. He doesn't seem to have any complaints though.


----------



## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

SunCMars said:


> Life is short.
> 
> Let us do what if's...nothing more is inferred.
> 
> ...



So well said SunC! >

It's a beautiful thing when the stars align and both players enjoy their game together, for many years together.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, if you get deeper into the weeds on this, a la following HNHN, you'll see that (1) meeting needs is basically an unspoken (and often misunderstood) agreement between the two and (2) needs are fluid, and fluctuate based on what one is getting. 

When I first got married, honesty and not cheating was BIG on my list, having just left an abusive, cheating jerk. Over the years, it became quite clear my H had NO problem telling me anything and everything - I got honesty in spades - and he would never cheat on me. However, I found that every house we lived in started falling apart because he has a HUGE chip on his shoulder about being told what to do (his mom thought he owed her everything) and the more I asked for help, the more he purposely refused to do anything. So today my top first, second AND third need is taking responsibility for the home.

But the thing is, the people need to COMMUNICATE so as to have those needs met and to inform when the partner is lovebusting them. 

IME, loss of communication is THE #1 reason marriages fail. You stop sharing your truth, you start holding grudges, you start accepting poor behavior but resenting, on and on. And that's where most of the 'loss of enthusiasm' comes in. If you two stay madly in love, if you keep the marriage fresh, AND if you are giving and getting equally, you're far more likely to enthusiastically meet the other's needs.

For example, I told my H last week that I couldn't get to my vegetable garden this year because he had wedged all THREE of his nonworking cars around that area; I'd have to climb over them to get to it! All he said was 'Well, _I_ can squeeze between cars #1 and #2.' So Saturday morning, he gets up and he moves his cars! And then proceeded to clean out the whole overgrown garden! And I was so thankful and HAPPY that I went and cleaned out his truck and detailed it, waxed the leather and everything. I WANTED to meet a need of his (admiration) because he was finally thinking of ME. And I didn't mind doing it. Now if he had just said he wanted me to clean out his truck, I would have just been pissed off at him and thought screw you, although I would have done it for him. But I would have done the bare minimum.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> In discussing the topic of needs with a friend, it was suggested to me that while it's a good idea to communicate one's needs to their spouse it's unreasonable to expect that spouse has to fulfill said needs.
> 
> ....
> 
> ...


I think if one partner has needs not only is it a good idea to discuss this need, but if the other partner struggles to accommodate this need and do so enthusiastically, then *there will need to be more than just a simple discussion. *

1. The partner with needs should try to _appreciate_ why the other partner may not be able to accommodate these needs and/or struggle to do so enthusiastically. 

2. The partner with needs should try if possible to _adapt_ themselves in a way to facilitate the other partner's ability to fulfill them. 

3. The partner with needs should try to _continue communicating_ about both the positive and negative impacts regarding their partner's efforts or lack there of to address these needs in a relationship. But this needs to be done in a caring, patient, and constructive way. 

4. The partner with needs should try to _never feel entitled_ to anything whatsoever.

5. The partner with needs should try to _be independent_ at times when requested by their partner. If this involves sexual needs, a couple will need to find a way to work out how solo exploration (or lack thereof) can be still nurtured in a caring/loving way by the relationship when this request is made.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

lifeistooshort said:


> I always feel like if I had to make an issue of it then it's not freely given and i don't want it.
> 
> It's something I'm still struggling with..... emotionally I'm quite high maintenance. My hb deserves kudos for putting up with it.


Ok, gonna stop you there. How much do you know about the differences between men and women? I'd recommend that you read some books about it, like Men Are From Mars, stuff like that.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Well then.. if you are in a relationship and your partner doesn't meet many of your needs, and you don't complain or withdraw or let it affect your behavior or outward mood (because you have trained yourself that an enlightened person shouldn't have expectations) aren't you:

1. Stuffing your feelings and being inauthentic
2. Living in an unfulfilling relationship, perhaps for your whole life?


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Livvie said:


> Well then.. if you are in a relationship and your partner doesn't meet many of your needs, and you don't complain or withdraw or let it affect your behavior or outward mood (because you have trained yourself that an enlightened person shouldn't have expectations) aren't you:
> 
> 1. Stuffing your feelings and being inauthentic
> 2. Living in an unfulfilling relationship, perhaps for your whole life?


I would hope that I picked someone who COULD meet my needs and WANTED to meet my needs more often than not. My needs are not complicated - they're fairly easy to meet. So I KNOW there is someone - probably many someones - out there who can do so. If I choose to stay with someone who isn't meeting any of my needs, no matter what my expectations are, that's on me.

Needs are fluid, though, like someone else said. I think the expectation that marriage should be TILL DEATH DO US PART is outdated. I think people should be free to change life partners as they move along their own path. I know we are to a certain extent, but DIVORCE has nothing but negative connotations. I think it should be expected that our relationships WON'T last forever, and if they do, and we find ourselves with the same person for 50 years, then it's because we WANTED to be with them. Not because we were married to them and weren't happy but stayed 'for the kids' or because it was too hard or expensive to get divorced. Marriage contracts should have a finite time limit, and need renewal, otherwise they're gone. (cue all the divorce lawyers freaking out cuz they'd be out of business!!)

Right now I am with a guy who is pretty good at meeting my needs. I like to think I'm pretty good at meeting his for the most part. Right now I WANT to be with him. Sure we have problems, but it's worth working on them. I WANT to work on them. So I guess my expectation would be that my partner WANTS to meet my needs. Not that they DO meet them, but that they WANT to.


----------



## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> I struggle with expectations because I have FOO issues that cause me to really not want to be where I'm not wanted.
> 
> So anything not freely given is not worth having, in my damaged world.
> 
> ...


I definitely know where you're coming from with this. I have a feeling that you and I may have some similar experiences in our childhood with our FOO. I'm working through a lot of it, but I still struggle at times. It is very difficult for me to ask for what I want from Real Estate, and to vocalize my expectations. He has always been very patient and encouraging.

The other day, we were at Target, and I did something or said something in passing, so innocuous that I don't even remember what it was, but it made him stop and look at me, and he said, "Wow, you've really never been treated well in any relationship, have you?" We've talked about my mom and my XH (both emotionally abusive/neglectful) at length, but I'm not sure it really sunk it with him until that moment, how those experiences have become internalized and continue to influence me, even as I grow and work through my crap. 




turnera said:


> Well, if you get deeper into the weeds on this, a la following HNHN, you'll see that (1) meeting needs is basically an unspoken (and often misunderstood) agreement between the two and (2) needs are fluid, and fluctuate based on what one is getting.
> 
> When I first got married, honesty and not cheating was BIG on my list, having just left an abusive, cheating jerk. Over the years, it became quite clear my H had NO problem telling me anything and everything - I got honesty in spades - and he would never cheat on me. However, I found that every house we lived in started falling apart because he has a HUGE chip on his shoulder about being told what to do (his mom thought he owed her everything) and the more I asked for help, the more he purposely refused to do anything. So today my top first, second AND third need is taking responsibility for the home.
> 
> ...


I can't like this enough. In addition to all of this, it's important to choose a partner who will be open to communicating and will give as much as they receive. You know, someone who is healthy.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> The true topic within the topic of this conversation is expectation and expectation management.
> 
> I am wrestling with this very thing right now. Frankly, I have been for a few years. Do I really have a right to expect anything from my spouse?
> 
> ...


They are... the trick is to learn that expectations are like potters clay. One can either mold them into usable acceptance like a vase to hold refreshing water or an ashtray. 




farsidejunky said:


> My wife certainly carries high expectations for me. I'm expected to open doors for her, treat her like a lady, date her, perform various acts of service, listen to her vent, take initiative in showing her non-sexual affection, maintain certain things in the household, and the list goes on. While I feel I do a pretty fine job at these things, she still experiences disappointment with me in various things.
> 
> Of course, we wouldn't want to remain married to somebody who doesn't take action to help us feel special. Where I struggle is finding balance, and whether either partner should have any expectation at all.


I find when EB2 thinks she hears an expectation, things can turn disappointing between us quite quickly. I do not try to shelter her anymore and have thus removed the eggshells I was prone to walk on from our path at the same time being sure not to discard mine in hers either. She is free to walk on hers if she wishes since I cannot control what she hears or interprets, but if she expects me to warn her of them then my acceptance of it is I'll do it in a whisper, not a shout.

Or not.

Sometimes less is more.

Just recently there was a complaint that I was in the study too often in the evening (from 9:00-10:30 PM +/-). I pointed out that she was reading the paper and I was reading on the study and the complaint was I was not present even though we spend the entire evening together up to that point. I know that when she reads the paper that zero discussion comes from her, and I conclude by her looks and demeanor that I am interrupting that when I approach her in conversation in that place. I shared with her my observation and it quickly spun into something totally unrelated but I listened and we solved that issue ignoring the source unhappiness. The next night I planted myself in the same area as EB2 and did the same for the next 5 nights.

Zero conversation, but that was ok, I was available.

Day 6, I kept to the study... guess what? Yep, same complaint.

I first thought "you have two feet you can use to come to me if you want conversation you know", but instead of pointing out the parameters of what was happening, I agreed that it was too long to sit in one place (and honestly, it was) so after reading for awhile where I choose, I get up, stretch, and come into the dining room to be available for a snapshot conversation and get a drink of water from the vase I crafted.

Am I catering to her? If I am, my back is thanking me more for it and I offer a moment for her to have my attention without any expectations she will use it. If she voices her expectations, I accept while she feels that way, she has her opportunity and I always say "you have me now, let's talk", and the complaint disappears. 

I use this frequently with not just presence, but task as well.

"you have me now"

If she accepts it, instead of expects it... our life is so much better and I think she is truly beginning to notice that.


----------



## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

Needs? Expectations? The deal inside the deal?

Learn to dance. All of our daily living, all of the time we spend with our life mate is a magnificent, non ending dance.

_From The Prophet

But let there be spaces in your togetherness,

And let the winds of the heavens dance between you.

Love one another but make not a bond of love:

Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls.

Fill each other's cup but drink not from one cup.

Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf.

Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone,

Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music_


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

We don't enter relationships to NOT have our needs met, but they have to be communicated to each other. IMO, there is an expectation that they will be met with a degree of care and loving - and usually with enthusiasm. Why stay in a relationship where one's needs aren't being met adequately (where each person gets to decide what adequate means to them)?

If our needs are not being met most of the time, we'd end the relationship and seek someone else who will.


----------



## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

I’ve seen how the whole relationship lockdown breeds an almost viral tendency to take the other person for granted, to have huge expectations, and to deliver this all from a sense of duty and obligation — without a thank you! What you experience is the pitfalls of monogamy. You become half of a couple and it is impossible for two people to meet all of the needs of another. Frustration and resentment grows from that as does cheating.

The couple only looks within for their needs and finds their spouse lacking in some areas. We realized that early on since my wife and I are two different people with not much in common but love. We ended up bringing my wife's best friend into our marriage. As three we were completed. We each were able to provide the others with something that they could not provide for each other. Not suggesting that you form a poly triad as we did but more that you should be open to thinking outside of the box. Our divorce rate reflects that many rather go down with the ship than choose their marriage over monogamy or whatever else would provide for your needs. It may just be new friends, a club, etc.. For us, it was a woman who provided both my wife and I what we could not provide for each other.

My advice is to stop thinking of yourself as half of a couple.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

turnera said:


> Well, if you get deeper into the weeds on this, a la following HNHN, you'll see that (1) meeting needs is basically an unspoken (and often misunderstood) agreement between the two and (2) needs are fluid, and fluctuate based on what one is getting.
> 
> When I first got married, honesty and not cheating was BIG on my list, having just left an abusive, cheating jerk. Over the years, it became quite clear my H had NO problem telling me anything and everything - I got honesty in spades - and he would never cheat on me. However, I found that every house we lived in started falling apart because he has a HUGE chip on his shoulder about being told what to do (his mom thought he owed her everything) and the more I asked for help, the more he purposely refused to do anything. So today my top first, second AND third need is taking responsibility for the home.
> 
> ...


Forgive me...I am going to unload.

God Almighty!

What we do for piece. Your peace...his piece of tail. 

No! Not even THAT. His tail fin is getting waxed by your soft hands. Not anything else.

God bless you! You wisely rewarded him for his F-fort. effed fortitude.

His rearranged his messy Tat for for your Tit. The [in your face] wreck on all sides of your overgrown garden that hid his blatantly and grossly undergrown concept of household duties.

He moved the cars because he wanted the fruit of your labor ...actually the vegetables on his supper plate later in the year. He wanted the rutabaga, Turnera, Dear, not your sweet lady-plum.
He gets that irregardless of whether the honey-do list gets done. He trashes your honey-do list, and still gets your honey-pot.

Oh well, I too can be bribed by soft hands.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> We don't enter relationships to NOT have our needs met, but they have to be communicated to each other. IMO, there is an expectation that they will be met with a degree of care and loving - and usually with enthusiasm. Why stay in a relationship where one's needs aren't being met adequately (where each person gets to decide what adequate means to them)?
> 
> If our needs are not being met most of the time, we'd end the relationship and seek someone else who will.


Along these lines I think you have to categorize your needs into must haves and would be nice to haves.

But I do think that a spouse isn't necessarily obligated to meet all needs. We just have to decide on what the must haves are and if your spouse can't or won't meet them you decide if you can live with that. 

I'd love to be able to argue politics or talk data and statistics with my hb, but that's just not him. I can live with that. 

I see many threads where someone is looking for a way to either coerce or force a spouse to meet their needs. In my view if your spouse isn't willing to lovingly try then you're wasting your time. 

Of course one needs to own their stuff before making demands. If a guy won't shower or brush his teeth and then complains that his wife won't have sex with him that's probably not going to be solved by finding another woman but continuing to not shower or brush his teeth.


----------



## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> We don't enter relationships to NOT have our needs met, but they have to be communicated to each other. IMO, there is an expectation that they will be met with a degree of care and loving - and usually with enthusiasm. Why stay in a relationship where one's needs aren't being met adequately (where each person gets to decide what adequate means to them)?
> 
> If our needs are not being met most of the time, we'd end the relationship and seek someone else who will.


That's true but there is also a big difference between needs and expectations, a difference that sometimes people get confused.


----------



## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

I fulfill her needs because it makes her happy. She fulfills mine because it makes me happy. Her happiness is one of my needs. Mine is one of hers.


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> The true topic within the topic of this conversation is expectation and expectation management.
> 
> I am wrestling with this very thing right now. Frankly, I have been for a few years. Do I really have a right to expect anything from my spouse?
> 
> ...



Interesting you bring up the issue of expectations. Last year my H's wisdom was that I had too many expectations, right now I still do, not that they will be met. Not to have any expectations is ridiculous, why would one be married then? I have very low expectations in my opinion, if I'm treated to the odd coffee, phone call, etc it is all good. I think his expectations are much higher, I should be available for enthusiastic sex, should be happy to see him every day all day, ok now I'm venting, better stop (and Im not even living at home right now - oh dear!).


----------



## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

WilliamM said:


> I fulfill her needs because it makes her happy. She fulfills mine because it makes me happy. Her happiness is one of my needs. Mine is one of hers.


I love this! One of Real Estate's biggest desires in our relationship is just to see me happy. I swear he does things just to see my face light up. And making him happy does the same for me.


----------



## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> In discussing the topic of needs with a friend, it was suggested to me that while it's a good idea to communicate one's needs to their spouse it's unreasonable to expect that spouse has to fulfill said needs.
> 
> I think it's reasonable to expect certain needs to be fulfilled in a marriage. But where the line of reasonable ends is subjective.
> 
> ...


Spouses are obligated to fulfill their vows. They swore to love each other, and love is expressed by caring about the other persons needs and feelings.

As far as specifics, when I get married, I'm going to draw up a written agreement that her and I will both write, agreeing on how our marriage will operate, principles that we will adhere to, needs of the other that we will meet, etc. And it will function as a marriage contract between us.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

WilliamM said:


> I fulfill her needs because it makes her happy. She fulfills mine because it makes me happy. Her happiness is one of my needs. Mine is one of hers.


Bingo!
Problems usually spring from when people do not derive happiness from their partner's happiness. 

Either way, it becomes a spiral ... either a continual sharing ... or a death spiral.


----------



## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

aine said:


> Interesting you bring up the issue of expectations. Last year my H's wisdom was that I had too many expectations, right now I still do, not that they will be met. Not to have any expectations is ridiculous, why would one be married then? I have very low expectations in my opinion, if I'm treated to the odd coffee, phone call, etc it is all good. I think his expectations are much higher, *I should be available for enthusiastic sex, should be happy to see him every day all day*, ok now I'm venting, better stop (and Im not even living at home right now - oh dear!).


This seems like a common expectation that some men have for women, and this one really drives me up a wall, because it is really dehumanizing and objectifying. This expectation implies that women aren't allowed to have their own emotions and function as autonomous beings with their own agency, that our only purpose is to please men.

I mean, personally, right now, I'm always happy when I see Real Estate, because we don't live together and we're still in the lovey-dovey phase, yeah? I'm pretty sure that if we were living together, at some point I would get irritated with him and NOT want to see him (or be happy to see him) in that moment.

To expect that a woman be happy and fun and horny 24/7 is simply unrealistic.


----------



## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

aine said:


> Interesting you bring up the issue of expectations. Last year my H's wisdom was that I had too many expectations, right now I still do, not that they will be met. Not to have any expectations is ridiculous, why would one be married then? I have very low expectations in my opinion, if I'm treated to the odd coffee, phone call, etc it is all good. I think his expectations are much higher, I should be available for enthusiastic sex, should be happy to see him every day all day, ok now I'm venting, better stop (and Im not even living at home right now - oh dear!).


You know, now that I'm re-reading your post, your H sounds like my mother. When I was a kid, my mother always told me that my expectations of her were too high. But my expectations _weren't _too high. Looking back, my expectations (and needs) were completely normal for a kid. But she didn't want to deal with the responsibility work of meeting the needs of another person, because she decided her needs were more important than mine... not just more important, but the only thing that mattered. My needs didn't matter to her at all. And because she didn't want to deal with my needs, she decided (perhaps unconsciously) to convince me that I was in the wrong for having any expectations of her whatsoever. Because I had to be wrong, right? Because I was the kid and she was the adult, that automatically means that she's right?

Someone here on TAM explained to me, after asking some more probing, intelligent questions, told me, hey, maybe you don't realize it, but your mother's behavior? That's emotional abuse. You might want to do a little more research on that.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Along these lines I think you have to categorize your needs into must haves and would be nice to haves.
> 
> But I do think that a spouse isn't necessarily obligated to meet all needs. We just have to decide on what the must haves are and if your spouse can't or won't meet them you decide if you can live with that.
> 
> ...


Agreed. Many needs can be met by someone other than your spouse, if such needs aren't fundamental to the relationship itself (e.g., sex in a monogamous relationship). I would also say that there are no nice-to-have _needs_. Those aren't needs, they're wants. I can forego a want much of the time, but not a need.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

WilliamM said:


> I fulfill her needs because it makes her happy. She fulfills mine because it makes me happy. Her happiness is one of my needs. Mine is one of hers.


This is a great way to put it. As long as it continues, all is well. It may become a mutual expectation, of course, established by long experience. On the other hand, breaking this pattern will probably break the relationship if it can't be reestablished.


----------



## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> Well, if you get deeper into the weeds on this, a la following HNHN, you'll see that (1) meeting needs is basically an unspoken (and often misunderstood) agreement between the two and (2) needs are fluid, and fluctuate based on what one is getting.
> 
> When I first got married, honesty and not cheating was BIG on my list, having just left an abusive, cheating jerk. Over the years, it became quite clear my H had NO problem telling me anything and everything - I got honesty in spades - and he would never cheat on me. However, I found that every house we lived in started falling apart because he has a HUGE chip on his shoulder about being told what to do (his mom thought he owed her everything) and the more I asked for help, the more he purposely refused to do anything. So today my top first, second AND third need is taking responsibility for the home.
> 
> ...


Love this! If just one of the many things I do all the time for my wife was actually noticed and she cleaned and detailed my car, I would be absolutely speechless for a month! I learned to expect that practically all my needs will go unmet until I finally decide to divorce her.


----------



## _anonymous_ (Apr 18, 2016)

Unmet expectations of reciprocity in marriage can reduce the relationship to a series of transactions between husband and wife, can encourage opportunistic behavior, and might ultimately lead to the couple treating their union like a zero-sum game. I think unchanging expectations and piss-poor expectation management are root causes for a lot of marital strife. Some posters have already hit this nail on its head.

Are expectations good in marriage? Like most questions, the answer is 'it depends'. If expectations and expectations management make the marriage worse off then no, expectations are not good. However, if expectations can be negotiated and a couple has the right management, I reckon that enough met expectations will make the relationship stronger. In this case, yes, expectations are good.

Marriage is an interesting arrangement, with some elements of exclusivity. I would argue that those exclusive elements naturally give rise to expectations and feelings of entitlement to expectations. I am not arguing that expectations are right per se, but rather why some might have expectations in marriage. For example, I'm married and I don't have one of those weird open marriages, so for a while I viewed my marriage as an implicit contract where my wife would meet my physical needs (and I would reciprocate), since both of us were forfeiting our options of getting those needs fulfilled elsewhere. On the other hand, my marriage is non-exclusive for many other things, where I just so happen to have less expectations. Coincidence, or not?


----------



## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

I am married for 50 years. I frequently take a walk with my wife at lunch time, the dog trotting alongside. Today I asked her after reading this thread, what are your needs....

without hesitation she said...... you. I feel the same way.

Perhaps we make life too complicated.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

urf said:


> I am married for 50 years. I frequently take a walk with my wife at lunch time, the dog trotting alongside. Today I asked her after reading this thread, what are your needs....
> 
> without hesitation she said...... you. I feel the same way.
> 
> Perhaps we make life too complicated.


Simplicity at it's finest. This may be the most beautiful post I've ever read on TAM.


----------



## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

urf said:


> I am married for 50 years. I frequently take a walk with my wife at lunch time, the dog trotting alongside. Today I asked her after reading this thread, what are your needs....
> 
> without hesitation she said...... you. I feel the same way.
> 
> Perhaps we make life too complicated.


Awe, I love this. I totally got the feels.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Well who can argue with 50 happy years?

Maybe that really does say it all


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> I struggle with expectations because I have FOO issues that cause me to really not want to be where I'm not wanted.
> 
> So anything not freely given is not worth having, in my damaged world.
> 
> ...


I think that there is a balance that has to be achieved. It is not reasonable to expect others to guess what our needs are. Nor is it reasonable to expect that anyone will meet all of our needs at all times. The idea is that we should be able to communicate our needs to our spouse. Then they should want to meet our needs, and actually do this most of the time.

For example, how would anyone know that you want flowers every day if you don't tell them? Now if you told your spouse this, but they only get you flowers every other day, that should be more than good enough. They are working.

Now for me, if my husband got me flowers every day, but he did not do things like spend time with him or do his fair share with the home, children, and earning income.... the flowers would be a love buster to me. Because they mean nothing to me. I would consider them an empty act. He needs to know that.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> I struggle with expectations because I have FOO issues that cause me to really not want to be where I'm not wanted.
> 
> So anything not freely given is not worth having, in my damaged world.
> 
> ...


Right there with you.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Along these lines I think you have to categorize your needs into must haves and would be nice to haves.
> 
> But I do think that a spouse isn't necessarily obligated to meet all needs. We just have to decide on what the must haves are and if your spouse can't or won't meet them you decide if you can live with that.


It may be just a matter of semantics, but terms like "needs" and "must haves" can be interpreted differently by different folks--including spouses. As @Vega has pointed out on occasion, nobody has a real "need" for sex, therefore it's not really a "must have". However if you phrase it as "I must have this in order to stay in love with you", it might change the conversation.

From the other person's point of view, a lot of those things that you must have in order to stay in love with them are "nice to have, but I'd still love you anyway".


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> It may be just a matter of semantics, but terms like "needs" and "must haves" can be interpreted differently by different folks--including spouses. As @Vega has pointed out on occasion, nobody has a real "need" for sex, therefore it's not really a "must have". However if you phrase it as "I must have this in order to stay in love with you", it might change the conversation.
> 
> From the other person's point of view, a lot of those things that you must have in order to stay in love with them are "nice to have, but I'd still love you anyway".


For sure. I think it's also a good idea to ask yourself if what you consider your needs are reasonable.

If you dumped your current partner how easy would it be to get someone else to meet your Needs?

Sometimes not very hard, other times very hard if they're unreasonable by mainstream standards.


----------



## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

We got married in 1973. It took us 7 years to get to the point we could accept each other. Since then we have lived by that simple axiom. 

I think I began to resolve that was my choice as I picked her up off the floor at the psychiatrists office when she was diagnosed.

That was in 1980.

Even during the poor choices I have made since then we have lived by it. And Mary has stuck by it with fervor. She likes to remind me the poor choices were mine, not hers. Because I think too much.

I fulfill her needs because it makes her happy. She fulfills my needs because it makes me happy. Her happiness is one of my needs. My happiness is one of her needs.

The last 20 years have been simply amazing.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

WilliamM said:


> Her happiness one of my needs. My happiness is one of her needs.


There's the recipe.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jb02157 said:


> Love this! If just one of the many things I do all the time for my wife was actually noticed and she cleaned and detailed my car, I would be absolutely speechless for a month! I learned to expect that practically all my needs will go unmet until I finally decide to divorce her.


Well, let's look at the bigger picture here, jb. I am SO STARVED for household stuff from him that the one time he does something for me, I react incredibly strongly. I think I mentioned this on one thread, but here is what's broken at our home: grill, weed-eater, edger, power washer, vacuum, couch, three cars, stereo system, wine fridge, mini-fridge, hand-vac, fireplace, ceiling, window screens, doorbell, air conditioner...probably some more. 

Now, I'm not saying to ignore your wife's needs to the point that my H has because most women would have left my H decades ago. But there's something to be said for NOT being SO available and accommodating. In other words, don't be a Nice Guy and put up with a ton of crap, and you should have a decent marriage.


----------



## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> For sure. I think it's also a good idea to ask yourself if what you consider your needs are reasonable.
> 
> If you dumped your current partner how easy would it be to get someone else to meet your Needs?
> 
> Sometimes not very hard, other times very hard if they're unreasonable by mainstream standards.


I think if Real Estate and I broke up, I think it would be very hard for me to find someone else who meets my needs, and vice versa. Our idiosyncrasies match almost perfectly that way.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There is a continuum from absolute needs (like food, shelter), to random wants. There is a lot of variation between what people think is expected in a marriage, but absence any prior discussion, I personally would put "expectations" at:

Each will do their utmost to ensure that the absolute needs (health, food etc) of their partner are met. 

Each values their partner's happiness at least as much as their own and is willing to make an effort to make them happy.

Chores and fun are shared. There can never be an exact accounting, but each tries to do at least their fair share.

Specifically:
Each attempts to hold a full time job, or spend an equivalent amount of time on chores / child care.

Each makes an effort to remain healthy, clean etc for their partner. 

Each will always provide help when its really needed.

I think its reasonable to expect romantic gestures consistent with financial and time limits. Whether its flowers, or dinner out, or wearing something attractive around the house in the evening. 

I think the biggest issues is sex - I think this is where there is the most divergence. My thoughts:

Each makes a real effort to please their partner. That includes doing things you don't actively enjoy in order to provide them pleasure / happiness. 

Assuming they are meeting your other needs / desires, that means having sex unless it would be actively unpleasant for you, and if so, trying to provide some other sexual activity unless that is also for some reason unpleasant. 

Be willing to engage in a range of common sexual activities - intercourse in a variety of positions, oral sex, long foreplay, use of conventional toys etc. 

Be open to trying more exotic play (BDSM, role play, anal, exotic positions or places etc), but also not pushing your partner for those things if they really don't like them.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

The key to a successful relationship is for each partner to be genuinely interested in the other's happiness. An essential part of happiness is having one's needs met (and, no, *****ing and moaning as they're met doesn't count).

If that's not the case, I don't see the point.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

I think there is a big difference in needs, wants, and love.

Needs and wants are selfish in design... taking in a true sense, not giving like love which doesn't take.

We tell people time and time again that happiness comes from within, and then in the same breath we say we need someone/something external to be happy.

I am sure it can be explained a dozen ways to show it's different by those who believe it's different and every one would be right in their own description, but in simplicity it is still a statement in conflict.

Traditional needs in a marriage are nothing traditional, but then there are only 3 basic colors, right?

Those lead to secondary colors and then those are mixed even more and before you know it the colors are unrecognizable.

We find that the colors run confused in how they blend and suddenly our love is diluted down with wants or needs that are no longer met and the color of love not longer identifiable.

Now our needs are running the show, in control of our disappointments instead of happiness being in control.

To me, that is black and white.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

An old classic movie clip describing the 80/20 rule from Tyler Perry's "Why Did I Get Married":


----------



## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> The true topic within the topic of this conversation is expectation and expectation management.
> 
> Aren't expectations truly the foundation disappointment?
> 
> ...


My husband will do all the above things and more if I act and behave like a lady and I treat him great when he behaves gentlemanly. We don't see it as an expectation rather a mannerly two way street. Treating each other well on a daily basis. I guess it's a necessity rather than a need in order for the marriage to function. 

Do you expect the same behaviour from her? 
Or is it a way for you to earn points for sex? 

If she still is experiencing disappointment, is it because she expects you to do more for her each time you want sex? 

And how does she know if in the future, she gave you sex freely without conditions, would you possibly not behave like a gentleman around her? 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Buddy400 said:


> The key to a successful relationship is for each partner to be genuinely interested in the other's happiness. An essential part of happiness is having one's needs met (and, no, *****ing and moaning as they're met doesn't count).
> 
> If that's not the case, I don't see the point.


Yes but (nearly) everyone starts off that way. It's the loss of communication and honesty that starts to eat away at that interest, which turns into self-preservation. The partner becomes the danger.


----------



## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> Well, let's look at the bigger picture here, jb. I am SO STARVED for household stuff from him that the one time he does something for me, I react incredibly strongly. I think I mentioned this on one thread, but here is what's broken at our home: grill, weed-eater, edger, power washer, vacuum, couch, three cars, stereo system, wine fridge, mini-fridge, hand-vac, fireplace, ceiling, window screens, doorbell, air conditioner...probably some more.
> 
> Now, I'm not saying to ignore your wife's needs to the point that my H has because most women would have left my H decades ago. But there's something to be said for NOT being SO available and accommodating. In other words, don't be a Nice Guy and put up with a ton of crap, and you should have a decent marriage.


So I guess in a way, we both put up with a bunch of crap that any other spouse would have left long ago over. There's any equally long list of stuff my wife should have done but doesn't do, the biggest of which is the she doesn't clean anything or put anything away. I'm to the point I'm just going to have the dump put one of those large junk containers in the front yard, throw away all of her crap and tell them to haul it all away. I'm tired of living in a messy house. She said that she would divorce me if I did that but I'm at the point where I could care less if she did.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Remee81 said:


> Do you ever say anything positive like ever? Why are you on here?


Because all voices are welcome... even the one's that we may not agree with, but even those have a foundation to learn from.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm hoping you do.

When my mom was alive, she offered TWICE to pay for one of those dumpsters to come to our house and get rid of H's house full of crap. I was too afraid of the confrontation.


----------



## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> In my view if your spouse isn't willing to lovingly try then you're wasting your time.
> 
> Of course one needs to own their stuff before making demands.


We had a crappy time together the other week. We expressed ourselves alright..! Feelings and needs, very plainly. My defaulted childish reaction becomes (without saying it) 'Screw you, I'm good by myself.' I acknowledged to myself that protective thought-pattern was occurring. It took several days for me to bounce back. That's not typical for me. Still feeling a bit funky/unresolved, and knowing he had plans for the weekend, I booked myself in for a massage. I have a chronic pain thing going on. When she started deep-tissue, I focused on my breathing. A wave of emotion came over me and I was sobbing. I don't cry easily. She encouraged me to let it out, saying I had 'kind' muscles, in that they were responding to release and not being stubborn. Curiously, she suggested I be gentle to myself... and being gentle to myself will help me be gentle with others too. Afterwards, I had a feeling of resolve within myself. The expectation I found myself clinging to, felt released. 

There's something about being whole within yourself, while at the same time, allowing space for others to be themselves and their 'best' selves, as well as being myself and my best self (not perfect self) for them too.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I think many miscategorize needs and wants.  I definetly have needs in a relationship that are non negotiable. I also have wants which are just nice to haves.

For example I NEED to have sex with my partner to feel connected in my relationship. I WANT that sex to always be happy,enthusiastic, and daily but in the real world things come up and you don't always get that. It's ok to not always get your wants.

True needs I think need to be communicated early as these are the non negotiable things. Everyone's needs are different just don't confuse them with wants.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

urf said:


> I am married for 50 years. I frequently take a walk with my wife at lunch time, the dog trotting alongside. Today I asked her after reading this thread, what are your needs....
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I love this! 
But I do think it is too simplistic. Just needing your spouse is not enough. You need them to be happy. When 2 people are happy that's everything. One unhappy person infects the other, they have self destructive behavior. They can sabotage the marriage, or bring light to their partners selfishness, or maybe incompatibility.

Many men are unhappy because of lack of sex. Many women are unhappy because they don't feel loved or listened to. So it's either their expectation/needs are too high or their partners are just neglectful. So then you need to dig deeper... is the problem the problem... is the lack of sex the problem or is the problem a symptom of another issue or problem. 

It can get complicated. But what I know is everyone gets married being in love and wanting to spend the rest of their life together, make each other happy. But things happen, there is neglect, unmet expectations, resentment, miscommunication... and years go by and you don't know how you got to where you are.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> We find that the colors run confused in how they blend and suddenly our love is diluted down with wants or needs that are no longer met and the color of love not longer identifiable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Traditional needs in marriage are irrelevant today. I can meet my own "needs"... I work, have shelter, food, a vibrator, and I can even have a baby on my own. 

What do I need from a man in the 21st century? Love, support, trust, faithfulness. The tricky thing about that is the love... what we need to feel loved is different to different people. Some people don't need a lot, some people do.


----------



## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> I love this!
> But I do think it is too simplistic. Just needing your spouse is not enough. You need them to be happy. When 2 people are happy that's everything. One unhappy person infects the other, they have self destructive behavior. They can sabotage the marriage, or bring light to their partners selfishness, or maybe incompatibility.
> 
> Many men are unhappy because of lack of sex. Many women are unhappy because they don't feel loved or listened to. So it's either their expectation/needs are too high or their partners are just neglectful. So then you need to dig deeper... is the problem the problem... is the lack of sex the problem or is the problem a symptom of another issue or problem.
> ...


Because...... is where unhappiness comes from.


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> Traditional needs in marriage are irrelevant today. I can meet my own "needs"... I work, have shelter, food, a vibrator, and I can even have a baby on my own.
> 
> What do I need from a man in the 21st century? Love, support, trust, faithfulness. The tricky thing about that is the love... what we need to feel loved is different to different people. Some people don't need a lot, some people do.


We all need to feel loved, that is what being human is about.
Of course what that entails is different according to each person. I know I am low maintenance in that department (probably too low leading to much neglect and being taken for granted). I do not demand attention or effort (although I often need it or want it) which leads to resentment on my part.

Finding the right person who can meet your needs and you can meet theirs is something special, that is all I can say.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Traditional needs in marriage are irrelevant today. I can meet my own "needs"... I work, have shelter, food, a vibrator, and I can even have a baby on my own.
> 
> What do I need from a man in the 21st century? Love, support, trust, faithfulness. The tricky thing about that is the love... what we need to feel loved is different to different people. Some people don't need a lot, some people do.


There is truth in the lack of relevance to a degree, we may meet our own needs for some period of time, but in time we do build desire and want to share that which we find in love as is our giving nature.

When we accept love we find a much different love than when we being to expect it.

I know when I expect EB2 to love me as much as I may want or need, there is conflict and I have to accept that I will get as little or as much as I get because if I don't, I will suffer. I am beginning to place it in it's level of understanding that even if I was not as poorly behaved in the past, that this may have been a natural progression for her portion of this relationship anyway, well beyond any control of mine as long as they are not shared with another, a very important boundary.

I too need the things I hear you needing... love, support, trust, faithfulness.

What I don't need is for them to make my life with them unhealthy in my expectation to have them... and if I don't get them more or less, my boundaries protect me and there there be no doubt in their role that they are a very selfish necessity (need) as we separate the decision of standing in place, or moving on from that which hurts us.

In that, I understand that needs are simply tools used to position ourselves better (taking) in balance with love (giving) to be released in a trusting give and take relationship with the challenge being that we may look to be careful that how others need or don't need love doesn't define us in a way we struggle to accept.


----------



## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> What do I need from a man in the 21st century? Love, support, trust, faithfulness. The tricky thing about that is the love... what we need to feel loved is different to different people. Some people don't need a lot, some people do.


You just described my dog. Love is not something you get from others. Love is a capacity.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

urf said:


> You just described my dog. Love is not something you get from others. Love is a capacity.


Perhaps so. However, how that capacity (love) is expressed has everything to do with whether a partner is worth remaining with long term.


----------



## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Perhaps so. However, how that capacity (love) is expressed has everything to do with whether a partner is worth remaining with long term.


That sounds like "buyer's remorse". It says more about the buyer that the subject. When the subject is a full blown human being the problem of compatibility is compounded. Not only the buyer may feel remorseful. For me at least it works positively. I get back what I invest. I have a great capacity to love. In return I am greatly loved..... at least I think I am. 

When it comes to the subject of love it is not only your marriage partner that can tell you if your being loving. 

My interpretation of the Bob Marley song....

Could you be be loved.....

Then be love



PS: I hope I am on the right subject with my reply. 

Be the ball Danny.


----------



## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I noticed an absolute shift in my husband... nothing more said, he just started meeting this need I'd expressed. I don't know if it's because I got right within myself somehow and chilled the funk out, or if, (his words) that he recognized he was being a ****head. What a difference though..! 

Our needs fluctuate and the only way we know where the other is at is by being stupidly open about it. And, no doubt there's positive and healthy ways to communicate this. Granted, I get conflicted about the attachment part sometimes.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Perhaps so. However, how that capacity (love) is expressed has everything to do with whether a partner is worth remaining with long term.


Are you still struggling with this, far?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think I will only disappoint myself if I have unrealistic expectations of my husband, whatever my "needs" may be.

I will still keep communicating as openly as possible with him, though. Hope springs eternal, after all . . .


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Are you still struggling with this, far?


More often than not. The last couple of weeks have been great, but B11 was also out of town with the in-laws.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> More often than not. The last couple of weeks have been great, but B11 was also out of town with the in-laws.


That might be the answer, far: spending more time together. 

And it is likely that as your son gets older, there will be more and more time for that.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> That might be the answer, far: spending more time together.
> 
> And it is likely that as your son gets older, there will be more and more time for that.


Believe it or not, our time together did not change much. I was out of town for 3 days, and she was working 10 to 12 hour days, with several hours on Saturdays and Sundays. Her business is busy.

I think what is closer to the truth is that B11 is often emotionally overwhelming to her. She gets to the end of her day and has little left in the tank for me.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Why is he overwhelming?


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

turnera said:


> Why is he overwhelming?


He isn't that overwhelming to me, so I do not believe he is in general. 

She struggles with persistent interaction. She is a good mother, and does a lot for/with him. However, as the night progresses, she is ready to shut down and withdraw to recuperate.


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Expressing ones needs is sometimes difficult because

1. you don't exactly know what it is you need
2. You don't want to come across as demanding or weak I suppose

I have some problems in this area, I let things go until I cannot contain myself anymore then blow up, not a good state of affairs. I know in my head what I ought to be doing, being open, expressing my need, but I still have that small voice telling me my H ought to know, why does he need everything single thing spelled out.

The more I think about it the more I realize my H needs a road map with instructions for everything, it really is exhausting.
Empathy is not his strong point and I have not been the only one to pick that up about him, yet you cannot teach somebody something like that


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

farsidejunky said:


> He isn't that overwhelming to me, so I do not believe he is in general.
> 
> She struggles with persistent interaction. She is a good mother, and does a lot for/with him. However, as the night progresses, she is ready to shut down and withdraw to recuperate.


What are you doing to run interference?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Believe it or not, our time together did not change much. I was out of town for 3 days, and she was working 10 to 12 hour days, with several hours on Saturdays and Sundays. Her business is busy.
> 
> I think what is closer to the truth is that B11 is often emotionally overwhelming to her. She gets to the end of her day and has little left in the tank for me.


I can understand that. I often feel overwhelmed by my kids, too. Dug rarely does.

Far, is your son a lot like you? Is that why he does not seem overwhelming to you? Or are you not with him as much?


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

turnera said:


> What are you doing to run interference?


He and I are out of the house two nights a week doing jiu jitsu, and I involve him in my outside gardening activities such as grape pruning and such. This week upon his return, raspberries and blackberries were in so we spent some time on those. We also periodically get out and do stuff without her, such as movies or ice cream.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> I can understand that. I often feel overwhelmed by my kids, too. Dug rarely does.
> 
> Far, is your son a lot like you? Is that why he does not seem overwhelming to you? Or are you not with him as much?


He's a lot like me in most ways minus my willingness to take risks. He is risk averse like his mother.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

farsidejunky said:


> He and I are out of the house two nights a week doing jiu jitsu, and I involve him in my outside gardening activities such as grape pruning and such. This week upon his return, raspberries and blackberries were in so we spent some time on those. We also periodically get out and do stuff without her, such as movies or ice cream.


I was meaning more in terms of the nighttime routine. So that she doesn't go to bed exhausted or frazzled. Is there one thing at night that you can take off her hands with him? Maybe the one thing that she's not emotionally capable of dealing with?


----------

