# To be concerned or not to be concerned?



## turtle05lj (Aug 13, 2012)

Short detail of the relationship... She is 28 I am 37 and both are "single" parents who now live together. Her son's father has never been in the picture and he has started trying to call me dad. We talk of marriage and more children. Relationship is 1.5 years long with 1 year of living together.

She has an "ex" sex buddy/BF that I told her I was uncomfortable with her being friends with. Reason being their relationship has at times been innapropriate in the past (he was married and she was dating someone). I am not the type of person to tell my partner that she can not be friends with someone as I feel it is controlling. They should make that decision on their own. All I ask for is honesty. I asked that if thay had conversations I would like to know. Not details just that they talked. 

The other night I got onto her phone, with her permission, as she wanted me to check something and I happened upon a message from this guy. It read.."Hey sexy my email is ... I miss you and am going to miss you at the Rally this year. I love you and Rider and need your email." The way he started the email led me to believe she initiated the conversation or that I at least only saw the second half of the conversation and she had deleted the beginning. Ryder is her son and I also mentioned to her that he could at least spell her son's name right LOL

I instantly got upset because she did not inform me that they were talking. Last I knew it had been over a year since they had talked. I didn't start a fight but rather went to bed a little early (like to think things through before I react). The next morning I asked her if she had planned on telling me about the text. She said no because she didn't think it was that big of a deal. I replied that she promised me she would tell me if there were dialogue between them. She said "give me a break." So I said well if you would at least tell him that you are in a relationship and living with someone that if he wants to continue being friends that the "sexy" talk and the " i love you" talk has to stop. It is disrespectful and innapropriate. She said she didn't think that it was a big deal and that she would not tell him that. So I told her that I would email him and tell him. She got mad and said fine go ahead. I didn't because it wouldn't really mean anything to him coming from me. 

She also keeps stating that just because we are living together and in a serious relationship doesn't mean she has to be dead? whatever that means. She says that because she likes to flirt when she goes out. 

I have told her that I don't expect her to be dead and that I know there are men out there that she will find attractive through life and there is nothing wrong with that. The difference is she needs to have respect not only for herself, but for me and the relationship by not acting on those feelings (to me her flirting is acting). 

Are her behaviors a sign that she does not want to be in a relationship? Should I be concerned?

Thanks and sorry so long winded


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Let's say she doesn't want to be in relationship badly enough to avoid flirting with other men. She is still shopping around, you are her temporary stop.


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## Owyn (Jul 9, 2012)

Sorry to say, but I would be concerned because she is keeping secrets from you and protecting/defending the OM. She is saying "it's not a big deal", but you both know it is; which is why it's a secret from you. If it really wasn't a big deal, she'd be open about it.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

She's keeping an eye out for something better. 

Who brings up the marriage talk? How enthusiastic is she?

Flirts when she goes out? GNO's?


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## BeachGuy (Jul 6, 2011)

I agree with the others. Sorry dude but she's keeping her options open. Do not marry this woman. In fact, I'd say get out now.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Turtle,

WHat a biotch!

What the heck do you love about her? 

When she goes out to flirt do you stay home with her Ryder and babysit?

I think it is time for a change of address for one of you!!!

HM64


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## turtle05lj (Aug 13, 2012)

She brings up the marriage and baby talk, maybe as a smokescreen? She always says "if I wanted to be with someone else I would be." Also the person she goes out with all the time is recently divorced which doesn't help in her way of thinking.


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## turtle05lj (Aug 13, 2012)

And yes she has ladies night every other Thur and I stay home with the kids. I have guys night once a month (frequency is my choice since I work a 24 on 48 off schedule at the FD I don't like to drink very often) and she stays home.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

turtle05lj said:


> She also keeps stating that just because we are living together and in a serious relationship doesn't mean she has to be dead? whatever that means. She says that because she likes to flirt when she goes out.


I would guess that that means that you will "do" for now, but she is open for an upgrade when he comes along. 

Sorry.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Have you checked her phone/texts/emails?


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## turtle05lj (Aug 13, 2012)

I have checked her text messages on occasion and her email but nothing new. Checked deleted files and nothing there either. She is either not doing anything or just good at covering it up. She does have A LOT of old messages from him and other guys from before we met. I asked why she is saving them and she said she doesn't know. She no longer uses her computer for talking since she knows I am on it and have looked. She uses only her phone.


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## jh52 (Apr 29, 2012)

WOW -- she is not dead and still needs to flirt when she goes out !! Not sure she is ready for any kind of serious relationship with just one person. Plus her ex and her -- just a situtaion waiting to happen and you will get hurt.

You have to decide what is best for you.

I think you know --- 

Good luck !!


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

turtle05lj said:


> She always says "if I wanted to be with someone else I would be."


It sounds cool, but remember no woman would ever tell you "if anyone better than you would come along, I'll be gone in a split-second".

It's not like she has all men of the world at her feet to chose from, as her phrasing would suggest.


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## turtle05lj (Aug 13, 2012)

Thanks folks, all your comments are things I have thought and can't say I disagree. Definitley waaaaay to much at risk here with the children as far as emotions being destroyed to get this one wrong.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

turtle05lj said:


> She brings up the marriage and baby talk, maybe as a smokescreen? She always says "if I wanted to be with someone else I would be." Also the person she goes out with all the time is recently divorced which doesn't help in her way of thinking.


You realize the problem with your sentence above??? Let me point it out.

She is always out with the divorced girlfriend.

If she she wanted to be with someone else she would be. Well she is with her girlfriend and not you.

She wants to be single but have the comforts of you at home waiting for her.

She is definitely not ready for a serious relationship.

And now she does everything on her phone. Hmmmm


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## turtle05lj (Aug 13, 2012)

It's funny because looking at all her ex's that she is disclosed it is almost as if she craves the disfunction in the type of men that she chooses. Don't get me wrong all people have some sort of disfunction but I have spent years trying to better myself through reading and the occasional visit to a counselor to help better my way of communicating in life in a respectful way. On occasion I have the saying "can take the girl outta the trailer park but cant take the trailer park outta the girl" fly through my head when she starts some of the meaningless fights she does. LOL


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

turtle05lj said:


> She has an "ex" sex buddy/BF that I told her I was uncomfortable with her being friends with. Reason being their relationship has at times been innapropriate in the past (he was married and she was dating someone). *I am not the type of person to tell my partner that she can not be friends with someone as I feel it is controlling.* They should make that decision on their own. All I ask for is honesty. I asked that if thay had conversations I would like to know. Not details just that they talked.


JMO, here, but this is a mistake; if you are uncomfortable with this friendship (and let's be honest, they've f*cked, so the friendship part kinda went out the window at the same time), she should respect that IF she is serious about you.

I had trouble with that when I met my future husband; he would talk about a 'friend' who was actually a former f*ck buddy. It would bother me when he discussed her, and I was sick of pretending I was OK with it so I told him so. He too tried to pull the innocence card, but I called him on that too...why should I put up with that kind of BS? If he wanted his "friends" he had my blessing, but he didn't get to have me, as well. He made it go away.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

turtle05lj said:


> I have checked her text messages on occasion and her email but nothing new. Checked deleted files and nothing there either. She is either not doing anything or just good at covering it up. She does have A LOT of old messages from him and other guys from before we met. I asked why she is saving them and she said she doesn't know. She no longer uses her computer for talking since she knows I am on it and have looked. She uses only her phone.


No longer using the computer because she knows you are monitoring it is a huge red flag! It means she knows that what she is doing is inappropriate, that you would be upset if you found out, intends to continue doing it and hiding it from you. It is called Cake-Eating. She wants the freedom to flirt (and who knows what else) with OM , go out with her divorced GF and party like she is not in a relationship. All the while keeping you at home as financial security and a live-in baby-sitter.

She wants the single life on-line and during GNOs (not dead) while she gives you just enough to keep you hanging on. This is not a committed relationship.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

turtle05lj said:


> I am not the type of person to tell my partner that she can not be friends with someone as I feel it is controlling. They should make that decision on their own.


It's not controlling. You should says these are my boundaries and then she CAN make the decision on her own if she chooses to respect that. If she can not respect that one then she's not ready for a relationship.



turtle05lj said:


> Hey sexy my email is ... I miss you and am going to miss you at the Rally this year. I love you and Rider and need your email.


That is 100% inappropriate. 



turtle05lj said:


> Ryder is her son and I also mentioned to her that he could at least spell her son's name right LOL


Lol is right because that does not matter at all. None. It's not the point.




turtle05lj said:


> (like to think things through before I react).


Very good. 




turtle05lj said:


> She said no because she didn't think it was that big of a deal. I replied that she promised me she would tell me if there were dialogue between them. She said "give me a break." So I said well if you would at least tell him that you are in a relationship and living with someone that if he wants to continue being friends that the "sexy" talk and the " i love you" talk has to stop. It is disrespectful and innapropriate. She said she didn't think that it was a big deal and that she would not tell him that.


Come on. This is not only inappropriate and disrespectful but it's not even remotely acceptable. Dude she is testing your parameters and you have to be self respecting and make it known that the relationship is important to you and this is not something you are not willing to accept. Seriously it's very important for you and her to demand respect from each other.




turtle05lj said:


> She also keeps stating that just because we are living together and in a serious relationship doesn't mean she has to be dead? whatever that means. She says that because she likes to flirt when she goes out.


Well then you and her decide what is okay and what is not. I think flirting is asking for trouble but I'm sure some women flirt and it does not lead anywhere. Many though get sucked into an emotional affair or a drunken one night stand because of it. I agree with you that "not flirting" does not mean you are dead. Again if she needs to flirt then maybe she's not ready for a serious relationship.




turtle05lj said:


> Are her behaviors a sign that she does not want to be in a relationship? Should I be concerned?


At the very least she does not understand that flirting is disrespectful to you or that it will cause problems. Yes you should be worried. She may love you and want to be with you but she is not ready to be serious with you. You have to define your relationship as what it is and decide if you can deal with that. I would not consider it serious based on her beliefs about what she should be doing.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

turtle05lj said:


> It's funny because looking at all her ex's that she is disclosed it is almost as if she craves the disfunction in the type of men that she chooses. Don't get me wrong all people have some sort of disfunction but I have spent years trying to better myself through reading and the occasional visit to a counselor to help better my way of communicating in life in a respectful way. On occasion I have the saying "can take the girl outta the trailer park but cant take the trailer park outta the girl" fly through my head when she starts some of the meaningless fights she does. LOL


Meaningless fights are sometimes used to avoid talking about the real issues. I got those a lot when my wife and I were going through a rough time.

As far as the "you don't want to be controlling" goes. You are not trying to control her behavior, you can't do that, you should tell her what is acceptable to you and what is not. You tell her "I do not feel comfortable when you do XY, I think it is damaging our relationship together. If you do XY again then I will have no choice but to do ZZ". Then she makes the choice to continue her destruct behavior or have enough respect for you and what you have together to stop. You can't control her - but you can control yourself and what you are willing to accept.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Another thing I wanted to point out is to move your ass on this; if it bothers you that much, say something ASAP. If you let it go too long, you will hear "Well, you never had a problem with it before..." and you'll have set yourself up for this treatment as long as you're involved with her.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

If she won't use the computer because she is hiding something you need to check her phone for deleted texts. You can retrieve deleted texts from most smart phones.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

This is a great opportunity for you to establish a real boundary. It's also a trap, because if you fail to establish a boundary the power in the relationship will shift to her and you'll be her doormat until she finds someone else. Whatever you do, don't rug sweep this. Force a choice.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

I agree 100% percent with WorkingOnMe. This is an opportunity to demonstrate respect for yourself and show that you are respectable.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Why not look at this relationship in the other direction? That is, if she wants to be with you, why is she not concerned about making you feel safe.

Maybe she should find someone who likes that edgy way of dealing with relationships.

And maybe you should find someone who shares the same values as you do in terms of fidelity and putting your partners needs ahead of those of your friends.


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## turtle05lj (Aug 13, 2012)

Thanks everyone for all the great responses. 

How does sitting down and writing a what I see in her, want from the relationship and expect in the relationship kinda letter and asking her to do the same?

Is that a good approach to seeing if we are capable of seeing things in a healthy light?

Has anyone taken this approach?

I've turned to the forum for suggestions and comments because it keeps it unbiased as opposed to talking to my family/friends or any mutual friends we may have.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Well, you're in a strange spot, given you aren't even engaged at this point. She is definitely still deciding what she wants, and is with you for now, but maybe not always.

It seems you guys might be at a crossroads. Do you think maybe she's doing this and being this way because you haven't popped the question? Not saying you should ask for her hand right now, but maybe this is her way of telling you she isn't your property and until you do, this is how it's gonna be.

Bottom line is the two of you need to set boundaries you both can agree with, given your current relationship status.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

I agree with Gabriel to a degree. There is a emotional power struggle going on where she's saying what she wants to do and you are saying I think we are serious and this will not be okay.

If you truly are serious then you are correct that it's not okay. She may not be serious is the thing though. She may be passing time with you because she would like to "turtle2.0".

I would not accept this position unless I was also just passing time. I think it's not appropriate to be passing time though if she has kids and they become attached to you.

So I agree with you general direction accept I would not make it sound like a request but instead I would make it known that what you currently have is not going to work out and then say here are the things that have to change and here are some things I'm not sure about and here are the things I love about you.

It's important that the things you can not and should not deal with are not in the least bit unclear. And it's important that you don't just tell her and hope for the best but you really need to treat yourself with respect and mean what you say. By that I mean if you say I can not and will not handle "x" and she says to bad then you need to not only leave but go dark (meaning no phone, email etc with her). If you are gone and clearly showing that your really meant what you said, then and only then will she decide if she's willing to change. Unless that happens she will continue to pursue having her cake and eating it to.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Oh yea. Being friends with someone she slept with in the past is on the "can't handle" list. So is flirting and acting interested in other guys. And clubbing with single friends is probably on there too.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

turtle05lj said:


> I am not the type of person to tell my partner that she can not be friends with someone as I feel it is controlling.


There's nothing wrong with being controlling. You do it to protect your relationship. If she doesnt' agree, show her the door.


> Hey sexy my email is ... I miss you and am going to miss you at the Rally this year. I love you and Rider and need your email." The way he started the email led me to believe she initiated the conversation or that I at least only saw the second half of the conversation and she had deleted the beginning.


Totally distrespectful. This woman doesn't have bounderies and doesn't repsect your relationship.



> She said no because she didn't think it was that big of a deal.


She knew it was a big deal that's why she didn't say antying to you.





> She also keeps stating that just because we are living together and in a serious relationship doesn't mean she has to be dead? whatever that means. She says that because she likes to flirt when she goes out.


WTF???? That's inappropriate!!
No wonder. You are just a temporary solution to her.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

LovelyGirl is correct. The way she looks at the relationship has to change if you plan to have anything lasting that matters.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

turtle05lj said:


> And yes she has ladies night every other Thur and I stay home with the kids.





turtle05lj said:


> Also the person she goes out with all the time is recently divorced which doesn't help in her way of thinking.



This is easy. Just have a friend go to her club one Thursday. Have him take a little cell video. I can GUARANTEE you will know where your relationship stands after that.

Guarantee.

Actually, a PI may be cheap for this simple a project. I wish to GOD I did that so many years ago. 

I'll bet they even meet up with the same group of boys when they go out. She sounds like a gal that will create her own party.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> Oh yea. Being friends with someone she slept with in the past is on the "can't handle" list. So is flirting and acting interested in other guys. And clubbing with single friends is probably on there too.


Add "Drinking alcohol while I am not with her" and you have the core of my list of things I will not tolerate.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

turtle05lj said:


> Thanks everyone for all the great responses.
> 
> How does sitting down and writing a what I see in her, want from the relationship and expect in the relationship kinda letter and asking her to do the same?
> 
> ...



Wonderful idea to write a letter!

Be sure to include no flirting. Many married people (or LTR) think "harmless flirting" is okay.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Good luck!


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

My question is,,, Why are you accepting this disrespect if you have done so much to improve yourself ???

By now you should be able to see she is not on the same page as you. 
But the beauty of your situtiaton is you can just walk. She is training you to accept that she will do what ever she want, and if you want to stay in her life, then you better walk the line.

You had it right, you can take the girl out of the trailer park.

Just think, not even married, and all ready having issues about old f**K buddies.
I don't even have to point out the main points. Everyone else did.

Advice to you. STOP looking for something in her she is not. Just accept she is not ready, and move on.
WHY, because if she was ready, she would'nt be doing the things she is doing. And if you have to make her act like she is in a relationship, she might just marry you and get even later.
So why take the chance on resentment biting you later on.

Run don't walk from this toxic woman !!!


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

OldWolf57 said:


> My question is,,, Why are you accepting this disrespect if you have done so much to improve yourself ???
> 
> By now you should be able to see she is not on the same page as you.
> But the beauty of your situtiaton is you can just walk. She is training you to accept that she will do what ever she want, and if you want to stay in her life, then you better walk the line.
> ...


As much as I hear in real life and also read on message boards, how women can't find a decent man......then I read a situation lik this and wonder.....maybe some men really prefer drama in their life and most women don't know how to give it........


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

Personally i would run far and wide from this woman. Too many red flags and complicated history. If she is like this now imagine a few years from now. 



> And yes she has ladies night every other Thur and I stay home with the kids.


She is exactly where she wants to be. Having you as a babysitter while goes down to town with her girls, cuz "she ain't dead" you know...



> I am not the type of person to tell my partner that she can not be friends with someone as I feel it is controlling


Friends? Do you know what a friend is? You're a man, do you think this other bloke calling her "sexy" is a "friend"? Come on, you know better than that.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

28 and she is still not old enough to cope with life in the real world?

Old enough to make babies, but not mature enough to have a meaningful relationship.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> Old enough to make babies, but not mature enough to have a meaningful relationship.


That's the story of many single parents out there in a nutshell.


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## Humble Pie (Feb 28, 2012)

turtle05lj said:


> Short detail of the relationship... She is 28 I am 37 and both are "single" parents who now live together. Her son's father has never been in the picture and he has started trying to call me dad. We talk of marriage and more children. Relationship is 1.5 years long with 1 year of living together.
> 
> She has an "ex" sex buddy/BF that I told her I was uncomfortable with her being friends with. Reason being their relationship has at times been innapropriate in the past (he was married and she was dating someone). I am not the type of person to tell my partner that she can not be friends with someone as I feel it is controlling. They should make that decision on their own. All I ask for is honesty. I asked that if thay had conversations I would like to know. Not details just that they talked.
> 
> ...


I would be concerned due to the position you are in... living with her, talking about marriage, son is getting attached to you while this woman clearly is not so much attached as you would like her to be.

Fine, thats okay, you now understand where you stand and her position in your relationship. 

My advice is keep the relationship as she wants it, move out and have her as a frequent gf but nothing else. Hell, she doesnt want to be "dead" so neither do you! 

Her actions and reactions show something is still there with her roaming affection, it is not just courted to your own taking. Your girlfriend sounds like she wants her independence, give her that and take yours back. Move out and remain just a frequent date, movies, sex with her if thats how she wants her relationships.


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

Well I guess he didn't like reading he is the paycheck babysitter.
Hey, if you come back, a word of advice. "stop wasting money on counseling if you are not learning and practicing what not to accept in your life"


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## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

turtle05lj said:


> I have checked her text messages on occasion and her email but nothing new. Checked deleted files and nothing there either. She is either not doing anything or just good at covering it up. She does have A LOT of old messages from him and other guys from before we met. I asked why she is saving them and she said she doesn't know. She no longer uses her computer for talking since she knows I am on it and have looked. She uses only her phone.


If someone is serious about a relationship, they will do what makes their partner feel loved and respected. Which is far from what she is doing. She is disregarding your feelings and concerns, and feels that these men she is flirting with are worth the arguments you have. You and your concerns are not her priority. A very selfish personality. Not a good sign.


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## turtle05lj (Aug 13, 2012)

Goodmorning,

Didn't have a problem hearing that I am the "paycheck babysitter." The slap in the face was needed and warranted (and appreciated).

I had some soul searching to do lastnight. Informed her of what I was doing in searching for some answers. She asked who I talked to and I informed her that I had talked to my sister as well as talking to people on this forum. She became extremely defensive and irritated and could not sleep and was a monster this morning!! I gave her the site address and advised that it may help her if she ever needed to talk to an unbiased party or group of people. I explained to her that is why I chose a forum/blog for suggestions.

I basically told her that I was writing a "letter of relationship expectations" and asked her to do the same for me. Asked her to write out a pro's and con's of our relationship along with it. 

In preperation of having her do what is expected and not go along with trying to fix what is wrong in the relationship I already have a place to go. Why even go through the motions you may ask if I feel she won't. To give her a chance. Maybe in seeing me do this she will get that I am serious about it. We are meeting on it on Friday. 

Yes I have spent time and money on working on myself but I (nor anyone else) am not perfect when it comes to dealings of the heart. I do love her as there are things about her that I have not spelled out on here but I am also willing to check out if she is not willing to participate in making this a better and solid relationship.

Thanks for all your help and suggestions.


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## turtle05lj (Aug 13, 2012)

I will come back on Fri to let you all know how it went. Any bets? LOL


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

turtle05lj said:


> Didn't have a problem hearing that I am the "paycheck babysitter." The slap in the face was needed and warranted (and appreciated).


I didn't make that comment but I was think it's very good that you appreciate inputs that are not what you want to hear.




turtle05lj said:


> I had some soul searching to do lastnight. Informed her of what I was doing in searching for some answers. She asked who I talked to and I informed her that I had talked to my sister as well as talking to people on this forum. She became extremely defensive and irritated and could not sleep and was a monster this morning!! I gave her the site address and advised that it may help her if she ever needed to talk to an unbiased party or group of people. I explained to her that is why I chose a forum/blog for suggestions.


Of course she was mad. She likes having you on a string and you are trying to figure out how she should be treating you. She knows that she is treating you with no respect.




turtle05lj said:


> I basically told her that I was writing a "letter of relationship expectations" and asked her to do the same for me. Asked her to write out a pro's and con's of our relationship along with it.
> 
> In preperation of having her do what is expected and not go along with trying to fix what is wrong in the relationship I already have a place to go. Why even go through the motions you may ask if I feel she won't. To give her a chance. Maybe in seeing me do this she will get that I am serious about it. We are meeting on it on Friday.


It may get her to change but the question is whether she has it in her to change and not slip back to her current ways. I hope she does but it would have a hard time not saying suspicious and would require transparency indefinitely.



turtle05lj said:


> Yes I have spent time and money on working on myself but I (nor anyone else) am not perfect when it comes to dealings of the heart. I do love her as there are things about her that I have not spelled out on here but I am also willing to check out if she is not willing to participate in making this a better and solid relationship.


I made a comment like the one you are referring to here out of frustration on another post and it really sounded more harsh than my intent. I can speculate that Wolf (I think) was saying that if you are going to trust someone enough to give them money to help you then you should trust what they are telling you more otherwise you are not getting anything out of that money spent. Also, someone who gets paid for advising has seen similar situations and is also looking from the outside in.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

turtle05lj said:


> We are meeting on it on Friday.


Any chance that Thursday is semi-weekly Meat Market Madness night? A little bit of cell footage from the night before will put a whole new spin on that meeting. You are wasting a golden opportunity if you don't take advantage of seeing her in action. I'll go so far as to say that meeting will be a waste of time without it. And such an EASY bit of intelligence to gather. You're crazy not to.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

turtle05lj said:


> I basically told her that I was writing a "letter of relationship expectations" and asked her to do the same for me. Asked her to write out a pro's and con's of our relationship along with it.
> 
> .


I can't imagine writing a contract for a personal relationship. either you naturally want the same things or you don't. And this letter certainly won't "stand up in court" anymore than a marriage licence will.


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

I think you're making things a lot more complicated than they need to be. Why do you need to write out a letter with pros and cons? You both should sit down and discuss where the relationship is and where you want it to go. If it's about engagement, marriage and kids than her attitude and behavior needs to start reflecting. The I'm not dead comment would've had me running for the hills personally.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

I get with Next and Making are saying but I think it's kind of nice to write down what you expect of yourself and your spouse. Otherwise it may not be understood or may be forgotten.

If nothing else, it's something for you to look at when needed to remind yourself not to fall into emotional traps if you are a passive person.

Good luck.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Turtle,

I think you are wise to meet on Friday.

You expressed your concerns and you are looking for her to share what she sees as the pro and cons in a relationship with you.

Go for it.

Keep the communication positive but get in that womans head.

You deserve to know you are not only numero uno in her life but to feel like you are number one in her life.

HM64


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I don't see the point of doing a pros/cons list.

This is about boundaries.

And you've already told her what yours is. 

Either she is willing to meet you halfway or she isn't.

To me, it doesn't sound like she has it in her (to let go of all these past flames in her life, to make your relationship a priority). She is still in party girl mode and the fact she claims to not see anything wrong with it speaks VOLUMES. Also, there hasn't been any empathy from her. If the shoe were on the other foot, I doubt she'd be ok with you being friendly with people you've slept with and sending totally inappropriate msesages to and accepting them. "I love you." Really? That is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay crossing the line. So much that... it's ridiculous.

I told you she would get mad. She got defensive because she knows she's in the wrong and that you reasons are justified. Again, if the shoe were on the other foot, she would not be ok with this. Not if she cared about you.


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

She has a babysitter for whenever you wants to run out and party.


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## Humble Pie (Feb 28, 2012)

I agree the pro/cons list isnt something that a relationship should have to "go over" like some business meeting... if anything you should do one for your own sake, so you yourself can see the pro's and con's of YOU being in this relationship.

Furthermore, I would have actually requested a discussion on the spot rather than giving her time to fictionalize her story and maybe rehearse it a bit. I mean, when you have done this type of talking in the past, she comes out and says "I dont want to be dead" etc, etc... and now maybe you wont get that burst of truth that is so apparent in people's first reaction when confronted on an issue.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

turtle05lj said:


> I will come back on Fri to let you all know how it went. Any bets? LOL


I hope you two can work things out between you. You and all your children deserve something good.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

I still think writing a letter is a good idea (not a contract). The written word is a powerful way to communicate but remember it is a one-way form of communication.

Too bad you told her about this forum. Most spouses will not take kindly to getting advice from a bunch of strangers. I am not surprised at her reaction.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Emerald said:


> I still think writing a letter is a good idea (not a contract). The written word is a powerful way to communicate but remember it is a one-way form of communication.
> 
> Too bad you told her about this forum. *Most spouses will not take kindly to getting advice from a bunch of strangers.* I am not surprised at her reaction.


As if anyone knows their therapist any better. At least this advice is free. So there's a good chance that it will be worth more than it cost.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Emerald said:


> I still think writing a letter is a good idea (not a contract). The written word is a powerful way to communicate but remember it is a one-way form of communication.
> 
> Too bad you told her about this forum. Most spouses will not take kindly to getting advice from a bunch of strangers. I am not surprised at her reaction.


I agree and I also agree with Next's comment. I am impressed with the forum members on here and I bet a few of them are licensed therapists (I'm not).

I think she would not like what a therapist says just the same and you would hear many of the same things. Remember many of these posters went to therapists and I watch Dr Phil so I'm an expert  (that was a joke but I do have a man crush on his ugly self).


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Emerald said:


> I still think writing a letter is a good idea (not a contract). The written word is a powerful way to communicate but remember it is a one-way form of communication.
> 
> Too bad you told her about this forum. Most spouses will not take kindly to getting advice from a bunch of strangers. I am not surprised at her reaction.


I agree that he should have kept the TAM forum to himself & just stated his boundaries, but on the flipside if she reads our comments, she may realize just how bad her actions look (though she doesn't seem to care).

You are also right that most spouses (in this case, his girlfriend) don't take kindly to getting advice from strangers. However, in this case, she is defensive because she knows she is behaving wholly inappropriately and he is totally justified in what he is saying to her -- because if it were him who was keeping in touch with his exes like this and going out to the bar and getting wasted and telling her her feelings doesn't matter/she saw nothing wrong with it and was going to keep up the status quo, she wouldn't like it one bit.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Bottom line is the relationship is a lot more serious to him than it is to her.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Co-sign


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## turtle05lj (Aug 13, 2012)

Update:

I couldn't wait till Friday  

So we had the talk last night. She was very receptive to the letter and my requests. " Holy crap a 3 page letter" she stated. LOL I held it up and said that is how much this means to me. She said ok and we began.

I first informed her of how I felt the flirting and mindset that she has about "being dead" was very disrespectful and hurtful to me and us. I told her how much the text thing from her "friend bothered me and why it bothered me. She asked why I was mad at her for something he did. So I explained to her that it was more her response and refrain from asking him to respect us. Told her due to that particular aspect of the situation I was no longer comfortable with the friendship continuing. She sat down in front of me and typed a message to her "friend/ex BF/FB" that they could no longer be friends. She deleted his contact info from her phone and email and FB. She also took all her passcodes off her phone and wrote her email password on a sticky note on the computer (I hadn't even asked her to do this yet - but was going to.) She said I was free to any and all of her convo's. She has already had access to mine as I have never had any locks on anything so that is now free standing. 

She had no issues with the boundaries I laid forth. Back up, When I started the boundaries convo she started off with "great more rules." So in preperation, as I knew she would view it this way I had a dictionary handy  She had the pleasure of reading the definition of both rules and boundaries. So the convo continued after her reading and she said that she saw no problems with the boundaries and I asked her to throw some in of her own. She had none but I am sure once she has some sessions she may (I can only hope). She stated that she grew up in a very disfunctional familiy and has never known how to have healthy boundaries. She said she will try to find a counselor to talk to if it meant that much to me. I told her only to do it if it meant that much to her. We will see....

With everything else talked about that I had issues with we had a great night of some of the best sex thus far and had a wonderful morning of the same. 

She still hated the idea of the forum but now says she understands why I came here and not to my family & friends (i told her that I didn't want my F&F to have any ill will or judements on her were we to work through this as she seems to want to). 

Thanks all for chiming in.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

My best wishes on this Turtle. Her being receptive is a good sign. It might mean she's serious however time will tell.



turtle05lj said:


> She sat down in front of me and typed a message to her "friend/ex BF/FB" that they could no longer be friends. She deleted his contact info from her phone and email and FB. She also took all her passcodes off her phone and wrote her email password on a sticky note on the computer (I hadn't even asked her to do this yet - but was going to.) She said I was free to any and all of her convo's. She has already had access to mine as I have never had any locks on anything so that is now free standing.


I'm pleasantly surprised. That is the desired response so good luck. 




turtle05lj said:


> She stated that she grew up in a very disfunctional familiy and has never known how to have healthy boundaries.


I hope she really believes this. It's important for someone to recognize when they need to do something better not only for their spouse but for themselves. Knowing about and trying to hold herself accountable will make her a better person regardless of how things work out.




turtle05lj said:


> She still hated the idea of the forum but now says she understands why I came here and not to my family & friends


I'm sure she's worried about what kind of things we would say to you and especially if she thinks she wasn't treating you respectfully. My fingers are crossed.


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## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

You did the right thing and she responded very well. 

Keep us posted on how things go


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Turtle

Excellent job!

*Communication is the key to both of you being happy!!!!*

HM64


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

> She stated that she grew up in a very disfunctional familiy and has never known how to have healthy boundaries. She said she will try to find a counselor to talk to if it meant that much to me


I thionk t's great. She needs to read about what a healthy marriage looks like, what healthy boundaires look like, to check hers, to change faulty thinking... she's open to iIC. Great.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Acabado said:


> I thionk t's great. She needs to read about what a healthy marriage looks like, what healthy boundaires look like, to check hers, to change faulty thinking... she's open to iIC. Great.


I agree. Now is the time to make sure you and her both read some material and maybe see a therapist. It's important that she does not have resentment later on and I think knowing what most everyone considers healthy for a relationship will keep her from thinking she's doing all of this for you. In reality it's for both of you guys.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

turtle05lj said:


> Update:
> 
> I couldn't wait till Friday
> 
> ...




Reading list for you:

Married Man Sex Life *********************

No More Mister Nice Guy

For You Both:

His Needs Her Needs *****************

Five Love Languages

Love Busters

Not Just Friends ******************


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Another thing is she needs to see it happening in real life, a happy, healthy long term couple, preferably a little older and wiser, as friends.

There are a bunch of literature about boundaires in marriage.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Acabado said:


> Another thing is she needs to see it happening in real life, a happy, healthy long term couple, preferably a little older and wiser, as friends.
> 
> There are a bunch of literature about boundaires in marriage.


Yea this is underrated. My wife and I hang out with my brother and his wife every weekend. Having good friends who are married to hang out with together is part of the marriage package. The fact that my wife really likes my family and our friends probably makes her more satisfied with our relationship.


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## jfv (May 29, 2012)

turtle05lj said:


> Update:
> 
> I couldn't wait till Friday
> 
> ...


Pleas keep us posted. We need success stories on this forum as well.


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