# Is she telling the truth?



## John910 (28 d ago)

My question will be a bit lengthy. Several years ago while I was on active duty with the army there were some events that occurred that made me suspect my wife cheated on me. I was 19 and she was 20 we had been married a little over a year and already had 1 child which was mine. 

She told me I was the first man she had intercourse with. However she admitted to being sexually active with several boyfriends before me but said she had never gone all the way. 

I had been gone 3 months and she informed me that her sister was getting married to her college boyfriend and wanted her to be maid of honor. The wedding was going to be 2 months before I got home from active duty. I asked who else was standing up with her and she informed me it would be her 2 other cousins and a female friend of her sisters. The guys were all single and college buddies (same frat) as the groom. 2 of the girls standing up were in relationships and their significant others would be there. 

That left my wife and her cousin xxxx as the 2 women that didn’t have a male partner that would be at the wedding. Knowing the reputation that these guys had for partying I became jealous. 

I asked her not to accept; of course she refused angry that I didn’t trust her. Over the next few weeks when we spoke we discussed this and her answer was always the same. 

A few weeks before the wedding I called on Saturday until late at night and she never answered the phone. I reached her on Sunday and asked where she was and she said she forgot to tell me but she had gone with her parents out of town to attend her sister’s shower. 

She said it was in the evening so they stayed overnight and she had left our son with my parents. 

I asked how it was, her answer was oh it was just another wedding shower and down played it as being quite ordinary. I didn’t think too much more about it. In our area wedding showers are usually for the bride. A group of girls get together, play games, give gifts to the bride and have snacks. As the wedding got closer I became more and more concerned. 

The weekend before the wedding she told me not to worry, she would not do any drinking or slow dance with any of these single guys (accept for the Grand March). She also promised she would come home early. I need to add the wedding unlike the shower was in our home town. 

A week later I called home the night of the wedding and got no answer, so I called again multiple times throughout the night until 2:30 am and she never answered. I didn’t call again until late in the afternoon the next day. 

She answered the phone I asked how things went and did she keep her promise to me, she said yes she only danced the grand march, only had one glass of champagne.

I then asked if she went home early and she said she did. I knew she was lying about going home early but didn’t push it. I was 1000 miles away and wanted to be home with her. A few months later I got to go home and we picked up where we had left off and never discussed the wedding or the shower. 

I would think about it often but never brought it up. I should add no one in her immediate family ever did either, to this day I have yet to see a picture from her sister’s wedding or hear anyone in her immediate family (father, mother, brother or sister) ever talk about her sister’s wedding. It was years later when at a family barbecue her cousin xxxx was sitting next to me and introduced herself. My response was you stood up with my wife at xxxx’s wedding I heard it was a good time. She said the wedding was a blast but the shower was even wilder. 

Your wife & I got really buzzed, it was a great time, we were getting free drinks, the band was cool, and the guys we would be standing up with were all there, good looking single college grads to slow dance with. I said my wife shouldn’t have been drinking; she wasn’t old enough to buy alcohol. xxxx laughed and said she was ordering slow screws (slo gin & orange juice) and the guys about 2 to 3 years older were more than happy to get them for her. She had enough; she was even slurring her words and ready to party. 

Before I could ask anymore we were interrupted by someone else. On the way home I asked my wife about the shower and at first she tried to down play it until I told her what xxxx had said. Then she tried to say she told me about how it was for the Bride and Groom and her parents were there. Nothing happened she said it was just a shower and got angry and said she didn’t want to talk about it. 

I dropped it and didn’t bring it up again until a few years later it came up again. Another family event this time it was her cousin xxxx and xxxx’s brother that brought it up. She again spoke about the wedding and shower saying her and Diane got buzzed and had a great time dancing and drinking with the guys. Her male cousin said Diane left with some of them after the shower ended. 

He didn’t know where they went as he and xxxx went home. Again on our way home from the family gathering I asked her about this and she got very angry. She insisted she did nothing wrong and I needed to drop this saying it happened a long time ago. I guess to avoid a fight I did. Now a few years later we had another event this time 3 of the guys she stood up with were there. 

I was introduced to them at the bar by the groom’s brother and he said this is xxxxx’s Husband you remember her; she was the hot blonde we stood up with at the wedding. 
One of them quickly mentioned yea I remember her she liked to party. One of them said you couldn’t take your hands off her ass. Another said yea well she was sitting on your lap. Before they were done they made it clear that she partied with them at the wedding and shower. One of the men said you should ask her how she got home that night. 

Note: I should mention my wife was pretty 34” x 24” x 34” 5’3” Long blonde hair, blue eyes, 100 lbs., with large breasts and with legs to die for. Later I learned she had bought a new blue and white mini dress (very short) and high heeled sandals to wear to the shower. Of course she also claimed she didn’t Know there would be a band, drinking or any of the guys there when she bought the dress.

After the event I knew I had to confront her with what I had heard. I waited a few months before confronting her wanting to be calm when I did. Of course as soon as I brought it up she got angry. She said this happened a long time ago why does it matter now? I insisted this time we talk through this. When I told her what I heard she first denied it. Then insisted I tell her who told me. 

When I told her it was her cousins and the men she stood up with she admitted drinking too much at the shower but said she always knew what she was doing. She also admitted she had slow danced and partied with these guys. 

When I asked her about the details she said she couldn’t remember. She doubted she let anyone put their hands on her butt or sat on anyone’s lap but couldn’t be sure. 

But if anyone had done that she would have stopped them. When I asked her how she got to her sisters that night to spend the night she first said her parents brought her. I told her I knew that wasn’t true and then she said it was her sister. I said that wasn’t true either she said she couldn’t remember. I said I thought you said you always knew what you were doing? I did but it wasn’t a big deal and it was a long time ago. 

Then she started to deflect toward me. She started accusing me of going out with my army buddies and dancing and partying with single girls while I was on active duty. I of course hadn’t there were no single girls. 

Any way we went back to did she leave the shower or the wedding with the guys? She then said that she still couldn’t remember anything like that but she could have. 

She vaguely remembers getting in the back seat of one of their cars and climbing over another girl to sit in the middle. But she assured me there were other girls in the back seat. I don’t believe her if it was another girl in the car she would have slid over so she could get in. Guys on the other hand always want to sit on the door side. She again got angry and said nothing happened. 

When I asked if they went right to her sister’s house she said she couldn’t remember but she was sure they did. She deflected again and accused me of being with a girl we knew when she was pregnant. 

That girl was someone I worked with and I never had any interest in. When we got back to the subject at hand we talked about the wedding and she tried to tell me her parents gave her ride home. I told her that was a lie and explained that I called our house that night until 2:30 am and she never answered. She then tried to tell me she went to her parents house and spent the night. I knew that was a lie too. 

Then she said she couldn’t remember why she got home so late. My wife doesn’t have Alzheimer’s she remember less important events that happened before the wedding clearly. 

The lies about these 2 events seem never ending. She still insists that nothing at all sexual happened between her and any of these 4 college guys. She also threatened that if I didn’t drop this we would end up divorced.

Note: I mention slow dancing often and since there is many types of slow dancing, I want to be clear on the type of slow dancing they were doing. She would have had her two arms around the guys neck and he would have had his 2 arms around her waist just above her hips. You wouldn’t have been able to slide a piece of paper between them. I know this because that’s how everyone slow danced then. 

I also need to point out that my wife was not normally a drinker. In fact I have never seen her buzzed in all the years we have been married.

Finally my question:
After hearing my story of these events if you were me would you believe her when she say’s nothing at all happened?


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## TheGodfather (1 mo ago)

from what you have written you pretty much what everyone told you and i doubt they would lie. it is clear you have caught her lying . the question is since you have been back with her has she ever given you a reason to believe she is cheating on you since you have been back with her?
also if she is threatening divorce that means she is scared and trying everything in her power to get you to stop asking.
if i were you i would tell her that you will 100% drop it an never ask anything about it again as long as she will agree to take a lie detector test. if she refuses which i believe she will then you have to ask yourself this one question. can you let go of the past when you were away from her ? if she has been amazing wife since you have been back an never given you a reason to believe she has or is cheating on you, is it worth blowing up a great marriage you have right now? for some people knowing the truth about when you were gone is a dealbreaker. i believe for you to put your mind at it is very important to know everything especially if your here.. the lie detector test is the only way.
if she refuses then you will some hard choices to make . her not answering the phone knowing you would call to me sort gives away she wasn't thinking about you when she was partying. not even a simple text. i can tell it is driving you crazy .. just be prepared to hear things you don't want to hear once the ultimatums are put out there an you find out what happened. if she refuses the lie detector be prepared for to possible go the divorce route because if she is guilty she knows you may divorce her when you find out the truth.. good luck i wish you the best of luck if decide to dig deeper into this


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

John910 said:


> Finally my question:
> After hearing my story of these events if you were me would you believe her when she say’s nothing at all happened?


No. If your questions is "nothing at all" because there is enough contradicting testimony from others. She was obviously flirting, disrespecting your relationship and has not been truthful.

If your question is, "Did she have sex with someone else?", there is insufficient information to say.

My decision forward, if I in your situation, no longer depends on whether or not she had sex with someone else. The continued lying and dishonesty would have destroyed my trust in her. The marriage cannot survive without trust. And if she says, "then we should divorce" again, I would say, "damn right, and it's all on you for your dishonesty. You aren't even making an effort to come clean, you've given various stories and lied to my face---first denying, then admitting some-- so you are make NO effort to heal this. You've killed the marriage.".

Maybe you can't do that, but I can't live any other way. I could never live without trust and knowing that my wife will lie to my face.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

Well, it's s obvious she is lying. You know this and I cannot imagine you will get a contrary opinion.

If your wife is really gorgeous ( and betrayed folks often overestimate this), odds are you are a good catch, too. Perhaps because of looks, or status or earning potential or a combo platter of these.

So, you will have options if you divorce. Bear that in mind.

You have a practiced liar as a spouse. That will damage you over time.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

The past holds all the old truths.

If it lets go of any of those truths, it normally does so, slowly, in drips.

While those memories can fade, the truth cannot.

It can fade from view, its meaning no longer decipherable.

However, those truths were begging for their release.
How convenient is that.

They want to be known, found out.
Why is this?

The people knowing the truth, they strangely, appeared before you.

As if, by magic.

...............................

You need to meet up with one of those college buddies of the groom.
One of them that was in the car, with her being in the rear.
The one that could not hold his tongue.

Find out where they went after the shower.
Did they drop your wife off at home?
Or, not?

Did one of the frat boys enter your home, that night?


Does he know something that would be of interest to you?
Tell him, you will provide him anonymity if he tells the truth of all that went on that night.

We do not know if she had sex with any of them, or if there was improper touching, in the car, or anywhere.
We do know she acted improperly that night.
The alcohol lowered her already, low boundaries.

She was very young then.
Young people do stupid things.
Especially, when drunk.

My guess?
Something happened.

Why would she flip the bad behavior back on you?
She knows she acted improperly.

I do not think she had sex with any of them, but I cannot be sure.
If she had, somebody would have told you, by now.
That would be a hard secret to keep, forever.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

John910 said:


> One of the men said you should ask her how she got home that night.


He likely wouldn't have said this to you if nothing noteworthy happened. That looks like daring you to find out what they did with your wife to me.

Are you willing to risk her divorce threat by pushing this? Are you willing to threaten divorce yourself based on what you know to find out more?

You have several other avenues to find out what happened, including thought the sister and her husband who got married, her family, and finding those guys again and asking them outright what they did. You might be able to goad the guys into telling you more if you do it right. Given the "couldn’t take your hands off her ass" and "you should ask her" comments, you could probably goad them into bragging about what happened if you play it right because it sounds like they were dying to tell you but held back to mess with you.

At the very least, she deliberately lied to you about her behavior that weekend and did things she knew you wouldn't have wanted her to do. She's the one who created your distrust in her by lying to you about what she did that night and that's on her to fix it.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

John910 said:


> My question will be a bit lengthy. Several years ago while I was on active duty with the army there were some events that occurred that made me suspect my wife cheated on me. I was 19 and she was 20 we had been married a little over a year and already had 1 child which was mine. She told me I was the first man she had intercourse with. However she admitted to being sexually active with several boyfriends before me but said she had never gone all the way. I had been gone 3 months and she informed me that her sister was getting married to her college boyfriend and wanted her to be maid of honor. The wedding was going to be 2 months before I got home from active duty. I asked who else was standing up with her and she informed me it would be her 2 other cousins and a female friend of her sisters. The guys were all single and college buddies (same frat) as the groom. 2 of the girls standing up were in relationships and their significant others would be there. That left my wife and her cousin xxxx as the 2 women that didn’t have a male partner that would be at the wedding. Knowing the reputation that these guys had for partying I became jealous. I asked her not to accept; of course she refused angry that I didn’t trust her. Over the next few weeks when we spoke we discussed this and her answer was always the same. A few weeks before the wedding I called on Saturday until late at night and she never answered the phone. I reached her on Sunday and asked where she was and she said she forgot to tell me but she had gone with her parents out of town to attend her sister’s shower. She said it was in the evening so they stayed overnight and she had left our son with my parents. I asked how it was, her answer was oh it was just another wedding shower and down played it as being quite ordinary. I didn’t think too much more about it. In our area wedding showers are usually for the bride. A group of girls get together, play games, give gifts to the bride and have snacks. As the wedding got closer I became more and more concerned. The weekend before the wedding she told me not to worry, she would not do any drinking or slow dance with any of these single guys (accept for the Grand March). She also promised she would come home early. I need to add the wedding unlike the shower was in our home town. A week later I called home the night of the wedding and got no answer, so I called again multiple times throughout the night until 2:30 am and she never answered. I didn’t call again until late in the afternoon the next day. She answered the phone I asked how things went and did she keep her promise to me, she said yes she only danced the grand march, only had one glass of champagne. I then asked if she went home early and she said she did. I knew she was lying about going home early but didn’t push it. I was 1000 miles away and wanted to be home with her. A few months later I got to go home and we picked up where we had left off and never discussed the wedding or the shower. I would think about it often but never brought it up. I should add no one in her immediate family ever did either, to this day I have yet to see a picture from her sister’s wedding or hear anyone in her immediate family (father, mother, brother or sister) ever talk about her sister’s wedding. It was years later when at a family barbecue her cousin xxxx was sitting next to me and introduced herself. My response was you stood up with my wife at xxxx’s wedding I heard it was a good time. She said the wedding was a blast but the shower was even wilder. Your wife & I got really buzzed, it was a great time, we were getting free drinks, the band was cool, and the guys we would be standing up with were all there, good looking single college grads to slow dance with. I said my wife shouldn’t have been drinking; she wasn’t old enough to buy alcohol. xxxx laughed and said she was ordering slow screws (slo gin & orange juice) and the guys about 2 to 3 years older were more than happy to get them for her. She had enough; she was even slurring her words and ready to party. Before I could ask anymore we were interrupted by someone else. On the way home I asked my wife about the shower and at first she tried to down play it until I told her what xxxx had said. Then she tried to say she told me about how it was for the Bride and Groom and her parents were there. Nothing happened she said it was just a shower and got angry and said she didn’t want to talk about it. I dropped it and didn’t bring it up again until a few years later it came up again. Another family event this time it was her cousin xxxx and xxxx’s brother that brought it up. She again spoke about the wedding and shower saying her and Diane got buzzed and had a great time dancing and drinking with the guys. Her male cousin said Diane left with some of them after the shower ended. He didn’t know where they went as he and xxxx went home. Again on our way home from the family gathering I asked her about this and she got very angry. She insisted she did nothing wrong and I needed to drop this saying it happened a long time ago. I guess to avoid a fight I did. Now a few years later we had another event this time 3 of the guys she stood up with were there. I was introduced to them at the bar by the groom’s brother and he said this is xxxxx’s Husband you remember her; she was the hot blonde we stood up with at the wedding. One of them quickly mentioned yea I remember her she liked to party. One of them said you couldn’t take your hands off her ass. Another said yea well she was sitting on your lap. Before they were done they made it clear that she partied with them at the wedding and shower. One of the men said you should ask her how she got home that night. Note: I should mention my wife was pretty 34” x 24” x 34” 5’3” Long blonde hair, blue eyes, 100 lbs., with large breasts and with legs to die for. Later I learned she had bought a new blue and white mini dress (very short) and high heeled sandals to wear to the shower. Of course she also claimed she didn’t Know there would be a band, drinking or any of the guys there when she bought the dress.
> After the event I knew I had to confront her with what I had heard. I waited a few months before confronting her wanting to be calm when I did. Of course as soon as I brought it up she got angry. She said this happened a long time ago why does it matter now? I insisted this time we talk through this. When I told her what I heard she first denied it. Then insisted I tell her who told me. When I told her it was her cousins and the men she stood up with she admitted drinking too much at the shower but said she always knew what she was doing. She also admitted she had slow danced and partied with these guys. When I asked her about the details she said she couldn’t remember. She doubted she let anyone put their hands on her butt or sat on anyone’s lap but couldn’t be sure. But if anyone had done that she would have stopped them. When I asked her how she got to her sisters that night to spend the night she first said her parents brought her. I told her I knew that wasn’t true and then she said it was her sister. I said that wasn’t true either she said she couldn’t remember. I said I thought you said you always knew what you were doing? I did but it wasn’t a big deal and it was a long time ago. Then she started to deflect toward me. She started accusing me of going out with my army buddies and dancing and partying with single girls while I was on active duty. I of course hadn’t there were no single girls. Any way we went back to did she leave the shower or the wedding with the guys? She then said that she still couldn’t remember anything like that but she could have. She vaguely remembers getting in the back seat of one of their cars and climbing over another girl to sit in the middle. But she assured me there were other girls in the back seat. I don’t believe her if it was another girl in the car she would have slid over so she could get in. Guys on the other hand always want to sit on the door side. She again got angry and said nothing happened. When I asked if they went right to her sister’s house she said she couldn’t remember but she was sure they did. She deflected again and accused me of being with a girl we knew when she was pregnant. That girl was someone I worked with and I never had any interest in. When we got back to the subject at hand we talked about the wedding and she tried to tell me her parents gave her ride home. I told her that was a lie and explained that I called our house that night until 2:30 am and she never answered. She then tried to tell me she went to her parents house and spent the night. I knew that was a lie too. Then she said she couldn’t remember why she got home so late. My wife doesn’t have Alzheimer’s she remember less important events that happened before the wedding clearly. The lies about these 2 events seem never ending. She still insists that nothing at all sexual happened between her and any of these 4 college guys. She also threatened that if I didn’t drop this we would end up divorced.
> Note: I mention slow dancing often and since there is many types of slow dancing, I want to be clear on the type of slow dancing they were doing. She would have had her two arms around the guys neck and he would have had his 2 arms around her waist just above her hips. You wouldn’t have been able to slide a piece of paper between them. I know this because that’s how everyone slow danced then. I also need to point out that my wife was not normally a drinker. In fact I have never seen her buzzed in all the years we have been married.
> Finally my question:
> After hearing my story of these events if you were me would you believe her when she say’s nothing at all happened?


You know. You don't need to ask us.

Why are you eating the humiliation she is trying to feed you?

Her lying should tell you everything you need to know...

Also, saying it was a long time ago is an admission along with a deflection.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Why didn’t you just leave the cheating *****? Her family has been throwing it in your face ever sense. I wonder how many times she has hooked up with them sense.

You know she isn’t telling the truth. You have been burying your head in the sand for years.


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## GoldenR (Jan 6, 2019)

You married someone that will cheat on you. It'll happen again.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

In your story you said you are


John910 said:


> My question will be a bit lengthy. Several years ago while I was on active duty with the army there were some events that occurred that made me suspect my wife cheated on me. I was 19 and she was 20 we had been married a little over a year and already had 1 child which was mine. She told me I was the first man she had intercourse with. However she admitted to being sexually active with several boyfriends before me but said she had never gone all the way. I had been gone 3 months and she informed me that her sister was getting married to her college boyfriend and wanted her to be maid of honor. The wedding was going to be 2 months before I got home from active duty. I asked who else was standing up with her and she informed me it would be her 2 other cousins and a female friend of her sisters. The guys were all single and college buddies (same frat) as the groom. 2 of the girls standing up were in relationships and their significant others would be there. That left my wife and her cousin xxxx as the 2 women that didn’t have a male partner that would be at the wedding. Knowing the reputation that these guys had for partying I became jealous. I asked her not to accept; of course she refused angry that I didn’t trust her. Over the next few weeks when we spoke we discussed this and her answer was always the same. A few weeks before the wedding I called on Saturday until late at night and she never answered the phone. I reached her on Sunday and asked where she was and she said she forgot to tell me but she had gone with her parents out of town to attend her sister’s shower. She said it was in the evening so they stayed overnight and she had left our son with my parents. I asked how it was, her answer was oh it was just another wedding shower and down played it as being quite ordinary. * I didn’t think too much more about it. * In our area wedding showers are usually for the bride. A group of girls get together, play games, give gifts to the bride and have snacks. As the wedding got closer I became more and more concerned. The weekend before the wedding she told me not to worry, she would not do any drinking or slow dance with any of these single guys (accept for the Grand March). She also promised she would come home early. I need to add the wedding unlike the shower was in our home town. A week later I called home the night of the wedding and got no answer, so I called again multiple times throughout the night until 2:30 am and she never answered. I didn’t call again until late in the afternoon the next day. She answered the phone I asked how things went and did she keep her promise to me, she said yes she only danced the grand march, only had one glass of champagne. I then asked if she went home early and she said she did. I knew she was lying about going home early* but didn’t push it.* I was 1000 miles away and wanted to be home with her. A few months later I got to go home and we picked up where we had left off and never discussed the wedding or the shower. * I would think about it often but never brought it up.* I should add no one in her immediate family ever did either, to this day I have yet to see a picture from her sister’s wedding or hear anyone in her immediate family (father, mother, brother or sister) ever talk about her sister’s wedding. It was years later when at a family barbecue her cousin xxxx was sitting next to me and introduced herself. My response was you stood up with my wife at xxxx’s wedding I heard it was a good time. She said the wedding was a blast but the shower was even wilder. Your wife & I got really buzzed, it was a great time, we were getting free drinks, the band was cool, and the guys we would be standing up with were all there, good looking single college grads to slow dance with. I said my wife shouldn’t have been drinking; she wasn’t old enough to buy alcohol. xxxx laughed and said she was ordering slow screws (slo gin & orange juice) and the guys about 2 to 3 years older were more than happy to get them for her. She had enough; she was even slurring her words and ready to party. Before I could ask anymore we were interrupted by someone else. On the way home I asked my wife about the shower and at first she tried to down play it until I told her what xxxx had said. Then she tried to say she told me about how it was for the Bride and Groom and her parents were there. Nothing happened she said it was just a shower and got angry and said she didn’t want to talk about it. *I dropped it *and didn’t bring it up again until a few years later it came up again. Another family event this time it was her cousin xxxx and xxxx’s brother that brought it up. She again spoke about the wedding and shower saying her and Diane got buzzed and had a great time dancing and drinking with the guys. Her male cousin said Diane left with some of them after the shower ended. He didn’t know where they went as he and xxxx went home. Again on our way home from the family gathering I asked her about this and she got very angry. She insisted she did nothing wrong and I needed to drop this saying it happened a long time ago. * I guess to avoid a fight I did*. Now a few years later we had another event this time 3 of the guys she stood up with were there. I was introduced to them at the bar by the groom’s brother and he said this is xxxxx’s Husband you remember her; she was the hot blonde we stood up with at the wedding. One of them quickly mentioned yea I remember her she liked to party. One of them said you couldn’t take your hands off her ass. Another said yea well she was sitting on your lap. Before they were done they made it clear that she partied with them at the wedding and shower. One of the men said you should ask her how she got home that night. Note: I should mention my wife was pretty 34” x 24” x 34” 5’3” Long blonde hair, blue eyes, 100 lbs., with large breasts and with legs to die for. Later I learned she had bought a new blue and white mini dress (very short) and high heeled sandals to wear to the shower. Of course she also claimed she didn’t Know there would be a band, drinking or any of the guys there when she bought the dress.
> After the event I knew I had to confront her with what I had heard. I waited a few months before confronting her wanting to be calm when I did. Of course as soon as I brought it up she got angry. She said this happened a long time ago why does it matter now? *I insisted this time we talk through this. * When I told her what I heard she first denied it. Then insisted I tell her who told me. When I told her it was her cousins and the men she stood up with she admitted drinking too much at the shower but said she always knew what she was doing. She also admitted she had slow danced and partied with these guys. When I asked her about the details she said she couldn’t remember. She doubted she let anyone put their hands on her butt or sat on anyone’s lap but couldn’t be sure. But if anyone had done that she would have stopped them. When I asked her how she got to her sisters that night to spend the night she first said her parents brought her. I told her I knew that wasn’t true and then she said it was her sister. I said that wasn’t true either she said she couldn’t remember. I said I thought you said you always knew what you were doing? I did but it wasn’t a big deal and it was a long time ago. Then she started to deflect toward me. She started accusing me of going out with my army buddies and dancing and partying with single girls while I was on active duty. I of course hadn’t there were no single girls. Any way we went back to did she leave the shower or the wedding with the guys? She then said that she still couldn’t remember anything like that but she could have. She vaguely remembers getting in the back seat of one of their cars and climbing over another girl to sit in the middle. But she assured me there were other girls in the back seat. I don’t believe her if it was another girl in the car she would have slid over so she could get in. Guys on the other hand always want to sit on the door side. She again got angry and said nothing happened. When I asked if they went right to her sister’s house she said she couldn’t remember but she was sure they did. She deflected again and accused me of being with a girl we knew when she was pregnant. That girl was someone I worked with and I never had any interest in. When we got back to the subject at hand we talked about the wedding and she tried to tell me her parents gave her ride home. I told her that was a lie and explained that I called our house that night until 2:30 am and she never answered. She then tried to tell me she went to her parents house and spent the night. I knew that was a lie too. Then she said she couldn’t remember why she got home so late. My wife doesn’t have Alzheimer’s she remember less important events that happened before the wedding clearly. The lies about these 2 events seem never ending. She still insists that nothing at all sexual happened between her and any of these 4 college guys. *She also threatened that if I didn’t drop this we would end up divorced*.
> Note: I mention slow dancing often and since there is many types of slow dancing, I want to be clear on the type of slow dancing they were doing. She would have had her two arms around the guys neck and he would have had his 2 arms around her waist just above her hips. You wouldn’t have been able to slide a piece of paper between them. I know this because that’s how everyone slow danced then. I also need to point out that my wife was not normally a drinker. In fact I have never seen her buzzed in all the years we have been married.
> Finally my question:
> After hearing my story of these events if you were me would you believe her when she say’s nothing at all happened?


What I’m noticing is that:
You over and over back down to your wife 
You avoid conflict.

She lies, trickle truths, deflects, and threatens you with divorce.

Your wife doesn’t respect you.
You fear her .
You know the truth. You know she’s a liar. She threatens you with divorce.

This is your fault. You’ve had years to have gotten the truth or divorced. You avoided facing it and solving the problem.

Even now you aren’t willing to give your wife consequences for her lies, disrespect, and threats.

Until YOU have made up your mind to give consequences to your wife, any advice you are given is useless. You should’ve put this problem to bed years ago. It’s clear you will do nothing about her lies. Therefore my advice is to keep your mouth shut about it like your wife says. What possible benefit can it be to you to keep harping on it?


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## Jimi007 (5 mo ago)

Find the 4 guys and just ask them...


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

Jimi007 said:


> Find the 4 guys and just ask them...


Yes, it sure sounds like they remember exactly what happened and may very well be laughing behind his back about what happened with his wife. He should also tell them that she told him she was a the first man she went all the way with to see if they laugh. She may have been lying about that, too.

I also recommending the OP finding an article about honesty, trust, full disclosure, and/or the harm from Trickle Truth and infidelity and handing it to his wife to read (for example).

If that's not enough and he wants the truth from his wife, he probably needs to threaten her with divorce if she doesn't talk, because what he's imagining she did in the absence of honestly is divorce-worthy and her lying and evasion is destroying any and all trust he had in her on top of that. And if she thinks what she did was divorce-worthy, that's her incentive for refusing to answer and threatening divorce if he keeps pushing -- that she knows it will end in divorce either way.

Asking her for a paternity test on their child(ren) might also wake her up to how serious his doubts about her honesty now are. And if she's indignant about the mistrust, he needs to point out that she created that mistrust with her lies and evasion at an event where she disregarded his concerns and did exactly what he was worried about. That's all on her.


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## Jimi007 (5 mo ago)

She got in the car with someone , obviously drunk , dirty dancing before....Lies...

Somebody knows what happened...


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

John910 said:


> My question will be a bit lengthy. Several years ago while I was on active duty with the army there were some events that occurred that made me suspect my wife cheated on me. I was 19 and she was 20 we had been married a little over a year and already had 1 child which was mine. She told me I was the first man she had intercourse with. However she admitted to being sexually active with several boyfriends before me but said she had never gone all the way. I had been gone 3 months and she informed me that her sister was getting married to her college boyfriend and wanted her to be maid of honor. The wedding was going to be 2 months before I got home from active duty. I asked who else was standing up with her and she informed me it would be her 2 other cousins and a female friend of her sisters. The guys were all single and college buddies (same frat) as the groom. 2 of the girls standing up were in relationships and their significant others would be there. That left my wife and her cousin xxxx as the 2 women that didn’t have a male partner that would be at the wedding. Knowing the reputation that these guys had for partying I became jealous. I asked her not to accept; of course she refused angry that I didn’t trust her. Over the next few weeks when we spoke we discussed this and her answer was always the same. A few weeks before the wedding I called on Saturday until late at night and she never answered the phone. I reached her on Sunday and asked where she was and she said she forgot to tell me but she had gone with her parents out of town to attend her sister’s shower. She said it was in the evening so they stayed overnight and she had left our son with my parents. I asked how it was, her answer was oh it was just another wedding shower and down played it as being quite ordinary. I didn’t think too much more about it. In our area wedding showers are usually for the bride. A group of girls get together, play games, give gifts to the bride and have snacks. As the wedding got closer I became more and more concerned. The weekend before the wedding she told me not to worry, she would not do any drinking or slow dance with any of these single guys (accept for the Grand March). She also promised she would come home early. I need to add the wedding unlike the shower was in our home town. A week later I called home the night of the wedding and got no answer, so I called again multiple times throughout the night until 2:30 am and she never answered. I didn’t call again until late in the afternoon the next day. She answered the phone I asked how things went and did she keep her promise to me, she said yes she only danced the grand march, only had one glass of champagne. I then asked if she went home early and she said she did. I knew she was lying about going home early but didn’t push it. I was 1000 miles away and wanted to be home with her. A few months later I got to go home and we picked up where we had left off and never discussed the wedding or the shower. I would think about it often but never brought it up. I should add no one in her immediate family ever did either, to this day I have yet to see a picture from her sister’s wedding or hear anyone in her immediate family (father, mother, brother or sister) ever talk about her sister’s wedding. It was years later when at a family barbecue her cousin xxxx was sitting next to me and introduced herself. My response was you stood up with my wife at xxxx’s wedding I heard it was a good time. She said the wedding was a blast but the shower was even wilder. Your wife & I got really buzzed, it was a great time, we were getting free drinks, the band was cool, and the guys we would be standing up with were all there, good looking single college grads to slow dance with. I said my wife shouldn’t have been drinking; she wasn’t old enough to buy alcohol. xxxx laughed and said she was ordering slow screws (slo gin & orange juice) and the guys about 2 to 3 years older were more than happy to get them for her. She had enough; she was even slurring her words and ready to party. Before I could ask anymore we were interrupted by someone else. On the way home I asked my wife about the shower and at first she tried to down play it until I told her what xxxx had said. Then she tried to say she told me about how it was for the Bride and Groom and her parents were there. Nothing happened she said it was just a shower and got angry and said she didn’t want to talk about it. I dropped it and didn’t bring it up again until a few years later it came up again. Another family event this time it was her cousin xxxx and xxxx’s brother that brought it up. She again spoke about the wedding and shower saying her and Diane got buzzed and had a great time dancing and drinking with the guys. Her male cousin said Diane left with some of them after the shower ended. He didn’t know where they went as he and xxxx went home. Again on our way home from the family gathering I asked her about this and she got very angry. She insisted she did nothing wrong and I needed to drop this saying it happened a long time ago. I guess to avoid a fight I did. Now a few years later we had another event this time 3 of the guys she stood up with were there. I was introduced to them at the bar by the groom’s brother and he said this is xxxxx’s Husband you remember her; she was the hot blonde we stood up with at the wedding. One of them quickly mentioned yea I remember her she liked to party. One of them said you couldn’t take your hands off her ass. Another said yea well she was sitting on your lap. Before they were done they made it clear that she partied with them at the wedding and shower. One of the men said you should ask her how she got home that night. Note: I should mention my wife was pretty 34” x 24” x 34” 5’3” Long blonde hair, blue eyes, 100 lbs., with large breasts and with legs to die for. Later I learned she had bought a new blue and white mini dress (very short) and high heeled sandals to wear to the shower. Of course she also claimed she didn’t Know there would be a band, drinking or any of the guys there when she bought the dress.
> After the event I knew I had to confront her with what I had heard. I waited a few months before confronting her wanting to be calm when I did. Of course as soon as I brought it up she got angry. She said this happened a long time ago why does it matter now? I insisted this time we talk through this. When I told her what I heard she first denied it. Then insisted I tell her who told me. When I told her it was her cousins and the men she stood up with she admitted drinking too much at the shower but said she always knew what she was doing. She also admitted she had slow danced and partied with these guys. When I asked her about the details she said she couldn’t remember. She doubted she let anyone put their hands on her butt or sat on anyone’s lap but couldn’t be sure. But if anyone had done that she would have stopped them. When I asked her how she got to her sisters that night to spend the night she first said her parents brought her. I told her I knew that wasn’t true and then she said it was her sister. I said that wasn’t true either she said she couldn’t remember. I said I thought you said you always knew what you were doing? I did but it wasn’t a big deal and it was a long time ago. Then she started to deflect toward me. She started accusing me of going out with my army buddies and dancing and partying with single girls while I was on active duty. I of course hadn’t there were no single girls. Any way we went back to did she leave the shower or the wedding with the guys? She then said that she still couldn’t remember anything like that but she could have. She vaguely remembers getting in the back seat of one of their cars and climbing over another girl to sit in the middle. But she assured me there were other girls in the back seat. I don’t believe her if it was another girl in the car she would have slid over so she could get in. Guys on the other hand always want to sit on the door side. She again got angry and said nothing happened. When I asked if they went right to her sister’s house she said she couldn’t remember but she was sure they did. She deflected again and accused me of being with a girl we knew when she was pregnant. That girl was someone I worked with and I never had any interest in. When we got back to the subject at hand we talked about the wedding and she tried to tell me her parents gave her ride home. I told her that was a lie and explained that I called our house that night until 2:30 am and she never answered. She then tried to tell me she went to her parents house and spent the night. I knew that was a lie too. Then she said she couldn’t remember why she got home so late. My wife doesn’t have Alzheimer’s she remember less important events that happened before the wedding clearly. The lies about these 2 events seem never ending. She still insists that nothing at all sexual happened between her and any of these 4 college guys. She also threatened that if I didn’t drop this we would end up divorced.
> Note: I mention slow dancing often and since there is many types of slow dancing, I want to be clear on the type of slow dancing they were doing. She would have had her two arms around the guys neck and he would have had his 2 arms around her waist just above her hips. You wouldn’t have been able to slide a piece of paper between them. I know this because that’s how everyone slow danced then. I also need to point out that my wife was not normally a drinker. In fact I have never seen her buzzed in all the years we have been married.
> Finally my question:
> After hearing my story of these events if you were me would you believe her when she say’s nothing at all happened?


Convenient amnesia when she`s asked about anything that may incriminate her, deflecting by accusing you of bad behaviour and gaslighting.
Yep, she`s lying, a lot more happened then what she`s telling you.
Sorry to say, your wife is never going to divulge what she got up to at the wedding and shower, also expect her family and friends won`t divulge much either.
Were there any videos taken at the wedding that may show your wife getting down with guys?
Can you contact any of those guys and ask them? But if any of those guys are in relationships or married, they may not say much either.
Difficult situation and not sure how you`ll ever find out the truth.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

You can also print out a list like this, hand it to her, and ask her if any of it sound familiar.


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

Your request that she decline to be her sister's maid of honor was unreasonable. Then you put other unrealistic conditions on the situation like her not having any fun. 

Of course she wasn't going to abide by your rules. She also didn't want a fight so she lied & made it seem like she did follow your rules. 

That said, having a good time a wedding should have been OK. Getting drunk, letting some guy grope her & basically behaving like she was single is a bridge too far. Now because she lied about a lot she has destroyed her own credibility. I suspect she was probably just badly behaved in her intoxicated state but I'd hope she knew where the big lines were & didn't sleep with anybody. 

Dancing & partying do not equal cheating but here they have eroded trust.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

@John910 , this is a dialogue forum, not a one-post release.....duck and run.

Please answer our questions and we will give you more of our opinions.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Based on my experience too many rules and controls can contribute to infidelity as much as too few. Asking your wife to not be her sisters maid of honor was a wild request, like over the top crazy request IMO. I could see that request alone as something that could be a marriage killer. Something like that can cause immediate resentment and resentment will kill any marriage. Now I'm not saying any possible infidelity is the fault of anyone besides the cheater, but you take a person with a fresh sense of resentment, add in some alcohol and opportunity and you have potential for bad decisions. I would say it is likely there were some bad decisions made.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

D0nnivain said:


> Your request that she decline to be her sister's maid of honor was unreasonable. Then you put other unrealistic conditions on the situation like her not having any fun.


But it looks like his concerns were entirely warranted, that she wouldn't be able to control the situation and the single guys, who pumped her full of drinks, would take advantage of her.



D0nnivain said:


> Of course she wasn't going to abide by your rules. She also didn't want a fight so she lied & made it seem like she did follow your rules.


She put a bunch of rules on herself to ease his concerns and told him to trust her. She then proceeded to break all of those rules, cross boundaries in doing so, prove she wasn't worthy of being trusted, and demonstrated that his fears were warranted. Having a hard time seeing where the OP is the bad guy here.



D0nnivain said:


> That said, having a good time a wedding should have been OK. Getting drunk, letting some guy grope her & basically behaving like she was single is a bridge too far.


The single guys the OP was concerned about pumped an underage (for drinking) married woman (and sister of the bride) full of drunks to get her wasted and then took her off alone in a car. That was exactly what the OP was worried about and she recklessly put her in a situation where his fears played out. Them blatantly telling him that she was groped, was sitting on them, and then essentially daring the OP to ask her how she got home (alone, with them) suggests a lot more happened. Worst case scenario is that she had sex with all of them, and there is no way to know that she didn't because, again, she allowed exactly the scenario that the OP was concerned about happen because she didn't heed his warnings or obey the restrictions she placed upon herself that would have kept her out of trouble.



D0nnivain said:


> Now because she lied about a lot she has destroyed her own credibility. I suspect she was probably just badly behaved in her intoxicated state but I'd hope she knew where the big lines were & didn't sleep with anybody.


She was so wasted it sounds like she's honestly may be having trouble remembering what she did. The guys, on the other hand, sound like they remember exactly what happened and since they were feeding her drinks, likely set that all up. Do those guys sound like they respected her or were respecting her boundaries when they talked about groping her? Do you think they drove her home alone after pumping her full of drinks out of the goodness of their hearts? Again, this is exactly the scenario the OP feared and urged her to avoid. It happened because she didn't heed his warnings and was either looking for that outcome or was stupidly reckless in a way that may very well wind up ending her marriage years later.

And why wouldn't she refuse to talk about what happened and threaten that if he didn't drop the subject that they would end up divorced if she didn't do something divorce-worthy in that car?



D0nnivain said:


> Dancing & partying do not equal cheating but here they have eroded trust.


He let a lot of that slide for a long time, even though it crossed boundaries he set and she said she'd abide by. The straw that broke the camel's back was confirming she was alone with guys who bragged about groping her and hinted that quite a bit more happened while they were alone with her, which was exactly the scenario the OP wanted to avoid with his boundaries, yet she put herself in that position, anyway, by ignoring him.

In fact, out of all of the people in this story, including her parents, sister, cousin, now brother-in-law, and her brother-in-law's close friends, the OP is the only one who seemed to care about his wife being used and abused by guys with a bad reputation. Nobody else seems to have had any interest in watching out for her, keeping her safe and out of trouble, or showing respect for her. So maybe the OP had a pretty good idea of who she'd be with and what she was wandering into and tried to protect his 20 year-old wife from predatory slimeballs who did, in fact, pump her full of liquor until she was blasted and, at a _minimum_, groped her.

Yeah, you go girl! Ignore the concerns of the man who loves you and let a bunch of frat boys treat you like a s*** after getting you drunk. How empowering.

Was a few nights worth of partying worth wrecking a marriage over? Because it sounds like that's where this is headed if you read John 9:10 (the OP's username): "“How then were your eyes opened?” they asked."


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Based on my experience too many rules and controls can contribute to infidelity as much as too few. Asking your wife to not be her sisters maid of honor was a wild request, like over the top crazy request IMO. I could see that request alone as something that could be a marriage killer. Something like that can cause immediate resentment and resentment will kill any marriage. Now I'm not saying any possible infidelity is the fault of anyone besides the cheater, but you take a person with a fresh sense of resentment, add in some alcohol and opportunity and you have potential for bad decisions. I would say it is likely there were some bad decisions made.


The problem with this take is that it wasn't a crazy request. Things played out *exactly *the way the OP was worried they would. The guys he was specifically concerned about taking advantage of her pumped her full of liquor to get her really drunk and then drove off alone with her, where they said they had, at a minimum from what they've said, a lot of inappropriate physical contact with her and they've hinted even more happened (telling him he "should ask her how she got home that night") and so has his wife by pushing back and warning that pursuing this will lead to them divorcing (implying she did something divorce-worthy). 

In other words, the OP knew his wife, knew the people involved, and had a good idea how things would turn out, and they turned out exactly as he feared they would. His wife made promises to ease his concerns and proceeded to violate all of those promises and boundaries, leading to the situation she wound up in. He was not being unreasonable. He was being prescient.

I don't know where this idea came from that women should ignore the concerns of men who care about them because, again and again if you read infidelity stories, the supposedly "unreasonable" jealous concerns of men that women are indignant about and rebel against actually play out pretty much the way the men predict they will quite often and it's the "You go girl!" strong independent women who assure themselves and others that "they can handle it" and that things won't get out of hand that get proven wrong again and again. Men can tell when other men are slimeballs.

And, yes, this can absolutely go the other way, too, with men ignoring the concerns of women they love, but they rarely get called unreasonably controlling, especially when their fears turn out to be fully warranted and play out as predicted, like they did here.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> The problem with this take is that it wasn't a crazy request. Things played out *exactly *the way the OP was worried they would. The guys he was specifically concerned about taking advantage of her pumped her full of liquor to get her really drunk and then drove off alone with her, where they said they had, at a minimum from what they've said, a lot of inappropriate physical contact with her and they've hinted even more happened (telling him he "should ask her how she got home that night") and so has his wife by pushing back and warning that pursuing this will lead to them divorcing (implying she did something divorce-worthy).
> 
> In other words, the OP knew his wife, knew the people involved, and had a good idea how things would turn out, and they turned out exactly as he feared they would. His wife made promises to ease his concerns and proceeded to violate all of those promises and boundaries, leading to the situation she wound up in. He was not being unreasonable. He was being prescient.
> 
> ...


My point is it is a chicken and an egg scenario. Never under estimate how feelings of resentment can affect a persons actions. Asking your wife to decline her sisters request to be her maid of honor is beyond crazy. I would think my wife was nuts for even asking me if it was OK. It would be like asking a spouse to not attend they're childs high school graduation because their ex was going to be there, totally crazy request. I can see a request like that on something that HUGE of a deal (being her sisters maid of honor) having a major instantaneous effect on her feelings towards him. In the early part of a marriage personally I would have seen that as a reason to end the marriage. 

Chicken and the egg.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

Note that it's possible that things never went further than groping or even that the guys were making that up, but her previously lies and deception, inability to consistently account for what she did, divorce threat if he keeps asking about it, and the guys' dare to ask his wife how she got home that night after talking about her like a piece of meat they enjoyed playing with all suggest that at least a bit more happened, which could have been anything from more flagrant groping or oral sex through to group sex with all of them. And it's possible they have pictures of what happened, too. Since the OP has no trust at this point, he's left to imagine the worst.

There is a classic fable that I was taught as a child that explains how, if you lie, people will stop believing you, even if you tell the truth. I'm going to post it here to help people that never learned this important lesson, because so many people these days seem utterly confused and suprised that once they are caught lying, they are no longer believed about anything. It's amazing to me how many people expect there to be no consequences for lying.

The Boy Who Cried Wolf


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

happyhusband0005 said:


> My point is it is a chicken and an egg scenario. Never under estimate how feelings of resentment can affect a persons actions. Asking your wife to decline her sisters request to be her maid of honor is beyond crazy. I would think my wife was nuts for even asking me if it was OK. It would be like asking a spouse to not attend they're childs high school graduation because their ex was going to be there, totally crazy request. I can see a request like that on something that HUGE of a deal (being her sisters maid of honor) having a major instantaneous effect on her feelings towards him. In the early part of a marriage personally I would have seen that as a reason to end the marriage.


Again, everything he feared happened and played out exactly the way he predicted it would. Sure, she resented it, ignored him, demanded he trust her, lied about precautions, went anyway and then proceeded to let all of his concerns play out exactly as he predicted they would. So what makes her resentment reasonable and his requrest crazy? He was prescient. He knew how it would play out. So why wasn't it her resentment that was unreasonable?

And why would it be unreasonable to ask a spouse not to attend their child's high school graduation because their ex was going to be there if the spouse had good reason to believe it would lead to behavior that would threaten or end their marriage? Because "I'm strong and independent!" "You can't control me!" "I'll do what I want!" If you read a lot of the infidelity stories here and elsewhere, they're full of willfully ignored concerns playing out exactly the way the "unreasonably jealous" spouse or partner predicted they would.

Do you know what happened when my (once very serious) high school girlfriend sent me a friend request on Facebook a few years ago? I asked my wife if I could accept it. She said no. I sent back a reply explaining what my wife said and didn't friend her. Why did I ask my wife first? I don't think I'd ever leave my wife for her so does that mean her request unreasonable? Is it wrong for a spouse to veto talking to someone on Facebook? Should I have resented her for it or lied and done it anyway? I don't think so. That's the sort of thinking that destroys relationships and marriages.



happyhusband0005 said:


> Chicken and the egg.


In this case, it was hubris. I'm not saying a spouse can't be unreasonable and over-controlling but I think it's silly to argue that when the situation proves they were right. Note that much of his concern was about what others would do to his wife, and he was pretty much right about that while she was either deliberately seeking it out or oblivious to how those men were treating her. Either she was engaged in hubris, thinking she could control something she ultimately couldnt' control, or she was trying to behave inappropriately on purpose, which is even worse. If she wanted to end her marriage, there were easier and faster ways she could have done it.


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## masterofmasters (Apr 2, 2021)

i counted 3 times where she gets angry and you let it go. you should have talked to her about it the 1st time you were informed that a lot of other shady stuff happened.

at this point, she'll take the truth to her grave.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> You can also print out a list like this, hand it to her, and ask her if any of it sound familiar.


She did hit on a few of these.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> Again, everything he feared happened and played out exactly the way he predicted it would. Sure, she resented it, ignored him, demanded he trust her, lied about precautions, went anyway and then proceeded to let all of his concerns play out exactly as he predicted they would. So what makes her resentment reasonable and his requrest crazy? He was prescient. He knew how it would play out. So why wasn't it her resentment that was unreasonable?
> 
> And why would it be unreasonable to ask a spouse not to attend their child's high school graduation because their ex was going to be there if the spouse had good reason to believe it would lead to behavior that would threaten or end their marriage? Oh, right. "I'm strong and independent!" "You can't control me!" "I'll do what I want!" Do you actually read any of the infidelity stories here and elsewhere? There full of willfully ignored concerns playing out exactly the way the "unreasonably jealous" spouse or partner predicted they would.
> 
> ...


But again chicken and the egg. If there is resentment in a marriage the marriage is usually dead. I was watching a Jordan Peterson video and he was saying when he was in clinical practice with couples if he picked up markers of resentment, it was almost a 100% predictor of divorce. So was his prophecy that turned out correct a self fulfilling one? Would she have been in an emotional place to do whatever she might have done if not in that emotional state? If i'm going to meet an old friend, and when we first see each other I point out he has gotten fat, is the reunion going to go good or bad? 

If I got divorced and remarried and my new wife told me to not go to my kids graduation because my ex was going to be there I would file for divorce the next day and enjoy the graduation. You would seriously skip your child's high school graduation because your wife was concerned you would do something with a person you divorced? That is next level weakness IMO. I would not even respond to that request other than to just say I'm going to pretend you didn't just say that because if you did we're over because you are insane. I can't imagine living with that kind of paranoia. 

What this all boils down to is I could never be married to your wife, and you could never be married to mine. And maybe the OP knew there was reason to be concerned about his wife in which case he never should have married her. The first choice is being in a relationship with a person we are not compatible with in major ways. In the OP's case I suspect that first decision was the first major mistake for the both of them.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

A hot 20 yr old wife with a history of drinking and partying, going to a wedding in the hometown with her husband deployed and single guys abounding?
What what could go wrong? 🤦🏻‍♂️


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

John910 said:


> ....I was 19 and she was 20 we had been married a little over a year and already had 1 child which was mine.
> 
> .......Finally my question:
> After hearing my story of these events if you were me *would you believe her when she say’s nothing at all happened?*


I would not believe her. However, the point is *what do you do now?* Actually, this is a great example of what not to do, back then when you first suspected.

*In marriage, you need to set boundaries.* Far too many couples are either afraid to set boundaries or assume that their partner will treat them as you want to be treated. We are all flawed human beings with free will and face tempations. We need to commit to marriage and know that we will be held responsible for our improper actions.

You knew something happened (although not what) and you avoided really talking to your wife. She was very dishonest in how she handled it, but you let her "off the hook" and didn't let her know what your boundaries were. While she is responsible for her actions, you are also responsible for your not resolving things and letting this wound continue to fester.

More importantly you have been bringing it up again and again and again without pushing to resolution. Your wife is ashamed of her actions and probably can barely stand what she has done. She knows that you will continue to poke at this raw wound in her ethical treatment of her husband and the father of her child. You have been traumatizing her (and yourself) with the way you have handled it.

If I were in your shoes, I would assume she had sexual intercourse with one or more of the frat boys. Then, I would wait till I had become calm and figure out how much I loved my wife and the mother of my child. If I didn't loved her enough to stay married to her, I would tell her that I can no longer trust her and want a divorce.

If on the other hand, I did still love her, she was and is a good wife since you returned from deployment and a good mother to your child, I would sit her down. Tell her that this is the absolute last time you will ever discuss the whole wedding thing. Tell her you know she has been lying to you, tell her you would like her to tell you the absolute truth, so you can start believing you can trust her. Then tell her you have thought about divorce, but you have no intention of divorcing her, unless she does something like that again or unless she lies to you again. Then, you need to make sure she is not emotionally flooded (google it) to the point that she can't rationally talk. Once you are sure she can think rationally, then listen, shut up, and never bring the subject up again. When she is through explaining, ask her is she has anything else she want to tell you. Hopefully, she will beg your forgiveness or promise she will never do anything approaching this again.

You really should have confronted her way back when. You need to be decisive in your relationship. You need to set boundaries before or immediately when bad things happen. You have been allowing this to fester, which is why you are in such pain, as is your wife.

Your marriage could probably use some marriage counseling to help the two of you reconnect and to have someone witness that you each commit to healing your marriage and to agreed upon boundaries. When people rug-sweep, it just makes the problem worse. You have probably learned a valuable lesson.

Good luck


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> My point is it is a chicken and an egg scenario. Never under estimate how feelings of resentment can affect a persons actions. Asking your wife to decline her sisters request to be her maid of honor is beyond crazy. I would think my wife was nuts for even asking me if it was OK. It would be like asking a spouse to not attend they're childs high school graduation because their ex was going to be there, totally crazy request. I can see a request like that on something that HUGE of a deal (being her sisters maid of honor) having a major instantaneous effect on her feelings towards him. In the early part of a marriage personally I would have seen that as a reason to end the marriage.
> 
> Chicken and the egg.


This has merit as it was a crazy request. But, it has zero to do with her lying and, potentially cheating. If it was a dealbreaker for her, she had options. No need to do the things he has found out about andvlie like mad.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

Young at Heart said:


> I would not believe her. However, the point is *what do you do now?* Actually, this is a great example of what not to do, back then when you first suspected.
> 
> *In marriage, you need to set boundaries.* Far too many couples are either afraid to set boundaries or assume that their partner will treat them as you want to be treated. We are all flawed human beings with free will and face tempations. We need to commit to marriage and know that we will be held responsible for our improper actions.
> 
> ...


What happens when he sits her down, tells her the consequences of continuing to lie, and, as will most likely happen, she lies? Divorce time?


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

happyhusband0005 said:


> But again chicken and the egg. If there is resentment in a marriage the marriage is usually dead.


Sure but why should one resent a spouse that requests their partner refrain from behavior that will be harmful to their relationship? That's the leap you are assuming is automatic and necessary.

The answer is pride. To quote CS Lewis, "_Pride leads to every other vice:"_

Which is why narcissism plays such a huge role in infidelity and divorce. And it plays a role in abusive relationships, too. As one pundit once quipped, a relationship can survive one narcissist but not two.

You are assuming resentment caused the problem. Suppose the OP said nothing. There would still be a bunch of shady college guys at the shower plying her with alcohol, groping her, and able to get her in a car with them while wasted. Do you think that would have changed? I doubt it. If resentment makes someone that self-destructive, then it makes it all the more stupid and irrational in a case like this.

And if she hadn't gone or went but still took his concerns seriously and took the mitigating steps she claimed she'd take? None of what he's worried about would have happened and their marriage would have been fine. So was her pride worth risking her marriage? How did self-destructive resentment benefit the wife?



happyhusband0005 said:


> If i'm going to meet an old friend, and when we first see each other I point out he has gotten fat, is the reunion going to go good or bad?


Depends on the person and the delivery. If they've gotten fat, why should that upset them? Again, pride.



happyhusband0005 said:


> If I got divorced and remarried and my new wife told me to not go to my kids graduation because my ex was going to be there I would file for divorce the next day and enjoy the graduation. You would seriously skip your child's high school graduation because your wife was concerned you would do something with a person you divorced?


I would want to understand my wife's concerns and I might. At the very least, I would work to negotiate an acceptable alternative that mitigates their concerns, which the wife in this case said she was doing and the husband seemed to accept but she lied about it and didn't actually do it, which is part of the problem. You seem eager to jump straight to resentment and divorce instead of understanding what the problem is so you can deal with it.



happyhusband0005 said:


> That is next level weakness IMO.


Nope. Just a lack of hubris. You have control over what you are going to feel resentment over. Why would you be eager to jump to resentment when you've already pointed out that it's poison to a marriage? Isn't that looking to create failure?



happyhusband0005 said:


> I would not even respond to that request other than to just say I'm going to pretend you didn't just say that because if you did we're over because you are insane. I can't imagine living with that kind of paranoia.


It's not paranoia if it's true. Again, the parties at the wedding played out exactly as the OP predicted. He wasn't paranoid. He was prescient. You are eager to reframe that as him causing the problem because your pride makes you see respecting a spouse's concern as weakness. It's not when it's warranted concern. Weakness is ego-driven self-destructive behavior that hurts everyone.



happyhusband0005 said:


> What this all boils down to is I could never be married to your wife, and you could never be married to mine. And maybe the OP knew there was reason to be concerned about his wife in which case he never should have married her. The first choice is being in a relationship with a person we are not compatible with in major ways. In the OP's case I suspect that first decision was the first major mistake for the both of them.


I honestly hope that works out for you and maybe the OP should never have married his wife, especially if her partying and intimate contact were planned and deliberate all along. Maybe she was lying all along about many things and was never really the person he believed she was. Seems quite possible based on what he wrote. That's also pretty common in infidelity stories, a spouse wondering "Who is this person?"

But even if that's the case, I still don't see the OP being the one with the problem here. He wasn't lying. He didn't act like a lunatic and leave her even after she ignored his request and it was clear she lied to him about some of it. He sounds like a pretty reasonable person here who has been reading the situation correctly all along while his wife has been running on either self-deceit (that she could handle everything and it would be fine -- it wasn't) or deliberate deceit of her husband. (if she intended to get wasted and intimate with other men all along). So I'm not sure why you are trying to paint him as the villain in this story.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

Evinrude58 said:


> A hot 20 yr old wife with a history of drinking and partying, going to a wedding in the hometown with her husband deployed and single guys abounding?
> What what could go wrong? 🤦🏻‍♂️


Nothing that would not have happened eventually, if this is in her character. Always gonna be opportunities.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Based on my experience too many rules and controls can contribute to infidelity as much as too few. Asking your wife to not be her sisters maid of honor was a wild request, like over the top crazy request IMO. I could see that request alone as something that could be a marriage killer. Something like that can cause immediate resentment and resentment will kill any marriage. Now I'm not saying any possible infidelity is the fault of anyone besides the cheater, but you take a person with a fresh sense of resentment, add in some alcohol and opportunity and you have potential for bad decisions. I would say it is likely there were some bad decisions made.


Crazy request, I agree. Rules etc contributing to cheating- no, not unless the person is predisposed to it.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> But it looks like his concerns were entirely warranted, that she wouldn't be able to control the situation and the single guys, who pumped her full of drinks, would take advantage of her.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Alternatively, perhaps he knew his wife's s character and that was more of a concern than the men's behavior. This could have been the reason for the warning. May have happened down the road, inevitably, if she had this predisposition.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> Sure but why should one resent a spouse that requests their partner refrain from behavior that will be harmful to their relationship? That's the leap you are assuming is automatic and necessary.
> 
> The answer is pride. To quote CS Lewis, "_Pride leads to every other vice:"_
> 
> ...


I think resentment could be caused by the implication that he did not trust her. In retrospect, his distrust was justified. 

Even if she had abided by his warning, but had resentment, I think it is a real stretch to conclude it played any role in the groping etc.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Megaforce said:


> Nothing that would not have happened eventually, if this is in her character. Always gonna be opportunities.


I agree. Apparently OP knew her character when he married her. She had none.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Megaforce said:


> Crazy request, I agree. Rules etc contributing to cheating- no, not unless the person is predisposed to it.


It's not the rules, it's the quite building resentment that comes from the rules if one person is not actually on board with the rules and just agrees to keep momentary peace. I do think people either have it in them to cheat or not, and that can vary widely from a person who is really built to be a serial cheater to a person who only cheated on their way out of a dead relationship. Both have it in them to some degree but one might have never cheated if they were in a great relationship. 

I do find it odd that some people seem to get married and only discuss their hard boundaries after being married already for a bit.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

Megaforce said:


> Alternatively, perhaps he knew his wife's s character and that was more of a concern than the men's behavior. This could have been the reason for the warning. May have happened down the road, inevitably, if she had this predisposition.


I can only go by what the OP wrote, which could admittedly be biased. He framed it as jealousy because of the reputation the *guys *had for partying and his wife interpreted it as him not trusting *her*, which is why I'm framing the problem as his wife's pride. Her husband was worried about predatory men and she believed she could handle it. Of course she may been lying and intended to party with them all along, welcoming it.

Specifically, he wrote:



John910 said:


> I asked who else was standing up with her and she informed me it would be her 2 other cousins and a female friend of her sisters. The guys were all single and college buddies (same frat) as the groom. 2 of the girls standing up were in relationships and their significant others would be there. That left my wife and her cousin xxxx as the 2 women that didn’t have a male partner that would be at the wedding. *Knowing the reputation that these guys had for partying I became jealous.* I asked her not to accept; of course she refused angry that I didn’t trust her.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

Megaforce said:


> I think resentment could be caused by the implication that he did not trust her. In retrospect, his distrust was justified.


Which is why I described her reaction as hubris: "exaggerated pride or self-confidence". Assuming she believed she could handle it, she was clearly over-confident. Without that hubris, if she trusted her husband's opinion, she may have actually taken his concerns seriously and taken the mitigating actions she said she would take (not drinking) but lied about (she got wasted) so he'd trust her (great plan -- lying to get her husband to trust her ). That's assuming she was being truthful to OP. She may have intended to party all along and the anger was over him getting in the way of her fun. At that point, she's simply not the woman he thought she was.



Megaforce said:


> Even if she had abided by his warning, but had resentment, I think it is a real stretch to conclude it played any role in the groping etc.


People can respond to resentment with self-destructive behavior out of spite. It's not impossible and I get that, but it is really stupid. It's like stabbing yourself to hurt someone who loves you.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> Which is why I described her reaction as hubris: "exaggerated pride or self-confidence". Assuming she believed she could handle it, she was clearly over-confident. Without that hubris, if she trusted her husband's opinion, she may have actually taken his concerns seriously and taken the mitigating actions she said she would take (not drinking) but lied about (she got wasted) so he'd trust her (great plan -- lying to get her husband to trust her ). That's assuming she was being truthful to OP. She may have intended to party all along and the anger was over him getting in the way of her fun. At that point, she's simply not the woman he thought she was.
> 
> 
> 
> People can respond to resentment with self-destructive behavior out of spite. It's not impossible and I get that, but it is really stupid. It's like stabbing yourself to hurt someone who loves you.


Hubris or a predisposition or a combo platter of both, " YOU CAN'T CHEAT AN HONEST MAN". If she groped, allowed groping, or had sex, warning her was futile, as she has it in her character.
It would be exhausting issuing warnings throughout the marriage if this is who she is. He must have sensed her susceptibility/ receptiveness to shave issued this prohibition. Who wants to play warden/ guardian angel in a relationship?


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

“Is she telling the truth?”

Well, I think since she has been repeatedly proven to be a complete and talentless liar, the short answer is “No”, although the answe I’d give would be “Xxxx No, are you kidding me?”


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

Megaforce said:


> Hubris or a predisposition or a combo platter of both, " YOU CAN'T CHEAT AN HONEST MAN". If she groped, allowed groping, or had sex, warning her was futile, as she has it in her character.
> It would be exhausting issuing warnings throughout the marriage if this is who she is. He must have sensed her susceptibility/ receptiveness to shave issued this prohibition. Who wants to play warden/ guardian angel in a relationship?


I think it depends on why she behaved the way she did. If she went there with the intent to get drunk, party, and be pawed by other men, then nothing short of locking her in a cage was going to prevent the inevitable at some point. If she was simply being arrogant and prideful ("I can handle it and won't lose control. You can trust me.") and was played by the college men feeding her drinks, then some support or supervision by people who cared about her might have helped her get through that challenge without incident and it also wouldn't have happened if her husband was there watching over her. That nobody in her family stepped in to protect her while she was drinking and drunk suggests that either they're a pretty awful family that doesn't care much about her or they knew that's what she wanted to do and is like and weren't willing to get in her way and intervene. Overall, I got the general impression that nobody really respects her or cares about her.

As for sensing problems with his wife, that's certainly possible. Subconscious feelings can understand things better than a person consciously does. He might have sensed something was off, triggering the jealousy. But it's also possible that he has a view of human nature and women where predatory men can take advantage of and manipulate otherwise innocent women into doing terrible things, whether you believe that's possible or not. I'd be interested to hear the OP fill in some of these details so we could make fewer assumptions.

As for playing warden/guardian angel, that all comes down to how all-in you are in the marriage and how you feel about the partner. I've seen people sacrifice far more effort for spouses who have cancer, have suffered strokes, have Alzheimer's, are in wheelchairs, are on dialysis, etc. Why do they stick around when they could just get a divorce to get out of it or shove them into an institution? Is it really that hard to understand?


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> Sure but why should one resent a spouse that requests their partner refrain from behavior that will be harmful to their relationship? That's the leap you are assuming is automatic and necessary.
> 
> The answer is pride. To quote CS Lewis, "_Pride leads to every other vice:"_
> 
> ...


I said in my first post I don't think he is to blame she decided to do whatever she might have done, but yes asking a woman to not be at her sisters wedding and wedding shower is a wild request, that could have left her extremely angry for even making the suggestion. I mean making a request that they move the wedding date until he got back from active duty would have been a far more reasonable request. And this whole it wasn't that he didn't trust her it was the guys reputation for partying, come one, what does those guys having a reputation for partying have to do with her. She just has to party cheat because a bunch of meatheads are partying. Do women not have brains or something, how does that work. If she did something it was because of her, not the guys partying. And if she was filled with anger and frustration and resentment from his request, yah maybe that gave her the mental justification, would she had done it anyway, maybe maybe not. But since we cannot go back in time and have him not make that suggestion we will never know if it played a part or not. The more I think about it I think she was already highly suspect in his mind, I don't think he really trusted her to start, otherwise he never would have made such an extreme request. 

Like I said it has be be an agreed upon boundary. That is where it starts for the basics of setting boundaries and that discussion should hopefully happen prior to getting married. But when you drop a new boundary on someone they do not like but agree to it to keep the peace that is an easily predictable problem. Let's look at girls nights out as an example. 

We have Joey and Jill, they get married and a few months after the wedding Jill gets invited on a girls night out with her friends like she has been doing forever. When she tells Joey, Joey says now that they're married he doesn't think she should be doing girls nights out anymore. They get in a little argument about but she agrees with his new boundary to keep the peace. It is very predictable that over the years as she gets invited and has to say know over and over she is going to build resentment over that rule. It has nothing to do with Ego, it is a disconnect and she is missing hanging out with her friends and eventually her friends don't invite anymore and she only knows about the girls getting together by seeing pics on facebook after the fact. She might feel left out and feel disconnected from her friends, guess who she is going to blame, Joey. Now Joey is sitting there clueless, not realizing what is going on with her and is in complete shock and dismay 15 years into the marriage when she tells him she has fallen out of love. OK a little over dramatic sounding maybe but I know a real life Joey and Jill, we watched it and now Jill goes on those girls nights out as a single woman, and Joey still has no clue what the hell happened. It wasn't just girls nights out it was other controls he decided he wanted her to abide by. Joey is his own man, he chose to demand certain controls which he was free to do, but he found out he could not ultimately control how his demands affected how she saw him. 

In the case of the OP making the request to not be her sisters maid of honor, to not be involved in one of the most important days of her sisters life, a thing they have both probably thought about for years and years, from my view is so far over the edge all that building and growing of resentment and anger probably would happen in a flash. Now maybe what should have happened is the OP should have realized that his if wife was so suspect, that he felt the need to try and stop her from being at her sisters wedding shower and wedding, that he should have realized she was not wife material and ended things there. That probably would have been the right move in reality. There are plenty of women who would agree with strict boundaries in a marriage, probably not skipping their sisters wedding, but more in line with his normal boundaries. If he had been married to a women like that he never would have felt the need to make the request, partying frat guys or not.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

John910 said:


> My question will be a bit lengthy. Several years ago while I was on active duty with the army there were some events that occurred that made me suspect my wife cheated on me. I was 19 and she was 20 we had been married a little over a year and already had 1 child which was mine. She told me I was the first man she had intercourse with. However she admitted to being sexually active with several boyfriends before me but said she had never gone all the way. I had been gone 3 months and she informed me that her sister was getting married to her college boyfriend and wanted her to be maid of honor. The wedding was going to be 2 months before I got home from active duty. I asked who else was standing up with her and she informed me it would be her 2 other cousins and a female friend of her sisters. The guys were all single and college buddies (same frat) as the groom. 2 of the girls standing up were in relationships and their significant others would be there. That left my wife and her cousin xxxx as the 2 women that didn’t have a male partner that would be at the wedding. Knowing the reputation that these guys had for partying I became jealous. I asked her not to accept; of course she refused angry that I didn’t trust her. Over the next few weeks when we spoke we discussed this and her answer was always the same. A few weeks before the wedding I called on Saturday until late at night and she never answered the phone. I reached her on Sunday and asked where she was and she said she forgot to tell me but she had gone with her parents out of town to attend her sister’s shower. She said it was in the evening so they stayed overnight and she had left our son with my parents. I asked how it was, her answer was oh it was just another wedding shower and down played it as being quite ordinary. I didn’t think too much more about it. In our area wedding showers are usually for the bride. A group of girls get together, play games, give gifts to the bride and have snacks. As the wedding got closer I became more and more concerned. The weekend before the wedding she told me not to worry, she would not do any drinking or slow dance with any of these single guys (accept for the Grand March). She also promised she would come home early. I need to add the wedding unlike the shower was in our home town. A week later I called home the night of the wedding and got no answer, so I called again multiple times throughout the night until 2:30 am and she never answered. I didn’t call again until late in the afternoon the next day. She answered the phone I asked how things went and did she keep her promise to me, she said yes she only danced the grand march, only had one glass of champagne. I then asked if she went home early and she said she did. I knew she was lying about going home early but didn’t push it. I was 1000 miles away and wanted to be home with her. A few months later I got to go home and we picked up where we had left off and never discussed the wedding or the shower. I would think about it often but never brought it up. I should add no one in her immediate family ever did either, to this day I have yet to see a picture from her sister’s wedding or hear anyone in her immediate family (father, mother, brother or sister) ever talk about her sister’s wedding. It was years later when at a family barbecue her cousin xxxx was sitting next to me and introduced herself. My response was you stood up with my wife at xxxx’s wedding I heard it was a good time. She said the wedding was a blast but the shower was even wilder. Your wife & I got really buzzed, it was a great time, we were getting free drinks, the band was cool, and the guys we would be standing up with were all there, good looking single college grads to slow dance with. I said my wife shouldn’t have been drinking; she wasn’t old enough to buy alcohol. xxxx laughed and said she was ordering slow screws (slo gin & orange juice) and the guys about 2 to 3 years older were more than happy to get them for her. She had enough; she was even slurring her words and ready to party. Before I could ask anymore we were interrupted by someone else. On the way home I asked my wife about the shower and at first she tried to down play it until I told her what xxxx had said. Then she tried to say she told me about how it was for the Bride and Groom and her parents were there. Nothing happened she said it was just a shower and got angry and said she didn’t want to talk about it. I dropped it and didn’t bring it up again until a few years later it came up again. Another family event this time it was her cousin xxxx and xxxx’s brother that brought it up. She again spoke about the wedding and shower saying her and Diane got buzzed and had a great time dancing and drinking with the guys. Her male cousin said Diane left with some of them after the shower ended. He didn’t know where they went as he and xxxx went home. Again on our way home from the family gathering I asked her about this and she got very angry. She insisted she did nothing wrong and I needed to drop this saying it happened a long time ago. I guess to avoid a fight I did. Now a few years later we had another event this time 3 of the guys she stood up with were there. I was introduced to them at the bar by the groom’s brother and he said this is xxxxx’s Husband you remember her; she was the hot blonde we stood up with at the wedding. One of them quickly mentioned yea I remember her she liked to party. One of them said you couldn’t take your hands off her ass. Another said yea well she was sitting on your lap. Before they were done they made it clear that she partied with them at the wedding and shower. One of the men said you should ask her how she got home that night. Note: I should mention my wife was pretty 34” x 24” x 34” 5’3” Long blonde hair, blue eyes, 100 lbs., with large breasts and with legs to die for. Later I learned she had bought a new blue and white mini dress (very short) and high heeled sandals to wear to the shower. Of course she also claimed she didn’t Know there would be a band, drinking or any of the guys there when she bought the dress.
> After the event I knew I had to confront her with what I had heard. I waited a few months before confronting her wanting to be calm when I did. Of course as soon as I brought it up she got angry. She said this happened a long time ago why does it matter now? I insisted this time we talk through this. When I told her what I heard she first denied it. Then insisted I tell her who told me. When I told her it was her cousins and the men she stood up with she admitted drinking too much at the shower but said she always knew what she was doing. She also admitted she had slow danced and partied with these guys. When I asked her about the details she said she couldn’t remember. She doubted she let anyone put their hands on her butt or sat on anyone’s lap but couldn’t be sure. But if anyone had done that she would have stopped them. When I asked her how she got to her sisters that night to spend the night she first said her parents brought her. I told her I knew that wasn’t true and then she said it was her sister. I said that wasn’t true either she said she couldn’t remember. I said I thought you said you always knew what you were doing? I did but it wasn’t a big deal and it was a long time ago. Then she started to deflect toward me. She started accusing me of going out with my army buddies and dancing and partying with single girls while I was on active duty. I of course hadn’t there were no single girls. Any way we went back to did she leave the shower or the wedding with the guys? She then said that she still couldn’t remember anything like that but she could have. She vaguely remembers getting in the back seat of one of their cars and climbing over another girl to sit in the middle. But she assured me there were other girls in the back seat. I don’t believe her if it was another girl in the car she would have slid over so she could get in. Guys on the other hand always want to sit on the door side. She again got angry and said nothing happened. When I asked if they went right to her sister’s house she said she couldn’t remember but she was sure they did. She deflected again and accused me of being with a girl we knew when she was pregnant. That girl was someone I worked with and I never had any interest in. When we got back to the subject at hand we talked about the wedding and she tried to tell me her parents gave her ride home. I told her that was a lie and explained that I called our house that night until 2:30 am and she never answered. She then tried to tell me she went to her parents house and spent the night. I knew that was a lie too. Then she said she couldn’t remember why she got home so late. My wife doesn’t have Alzheimer’s she remember less important events that happened before the wedding clearly. The lies about these 2 events seem never ending. She still insists that nothing at all sexual happened between her and any of these 4 college guys. She also threatened that if I didn’t drop this we would end up divorced.
> Note: I mention slow dancing often and since there is many types of slow dancing, I want to be clear on the type of slow dancing they were doing. She would have had her two arms around the guys neck and he would have had his 2 arms around her waist just above her hips. You wouldn’t have been able to slide a piece of paper between them. I know this because that’s how everyone slow danced then. I also need to point out that my wife was not normally a drinker. In fact I have never seen her buzzed in all the years we have been married.
> Finally my question:
> After hearing my story of these events if you were me would you believe her when she say’s nothing at all happened?


She would be having to pass a poly if she were my wife. She threatens you to try to get you to back down. Hell I would have asked the guys which ones got BJs and which did she screw? Maybe at the same time....I would put a woman of this sort back on the streets where she belongs.

Someone has videos and pictures of the party, start digging. She cheated.


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## ShatteredKat (Mar 23, 2016)

In case John returns:



Lying



the level of lying is to much for a good marriage 

polygraph and she passes or divorce 

if neither - you will die a slow death (emotionally for sure)


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> I think it depends on why she behaved the way she did. If she went there with the intent to get drunk, party, and be pawed by other men, then nothing short of locking her in a cage was going to prevent the inevitable at some point. If she was simply being arrogant and prideful ("I can handle it and won't lose control. You can trust me.") and was played by the college men feeding her drinks, then some support or supervision by people who cared about her might have helped her get through that challenge without incident and it also wouldn't have happened if her husband was there watching over her. That nobody in her family stepped in to protect her while she was drinking and drunk suggests that either they're a pretty awful family that doesn't care much about her or they knew that's what she wanted to do and is like and weren't willing to get in her way and intervene. Overall, I got the general impression that nobody really respects her or cares about her.
> 
> As for sensing problems with his wife, that's certainly possible. Subconscious feelings can understand things better than a person consciously does. He might have sensed something was off, triggering the jealousy. But it's also possible that he has a view of human nature and women where predatory men can take advantage of and manipulate otherwise innocent women into doing terrible things, whether you believe that's possible or not. I'd be interested to hear the OP fill in some of these details so we could make fewer assumptions.
> 
> As for playing warden/guardian angel, that all comes down to how all-in you are in the marriage and how you feel about the partner. I've seen people sacrifice far more effort for spouses who have cancer, have suffered strokes, have Alzheimer's, are in wheelchairs, are on dialysis, etc. Why do they stick around when they could just get a divorce to get out of it or shove them into an institution? Is it really that hard to understand?


Pretty easy distinction: voluntary actions vs involuntarily contracting a disease. See the difference?


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

happyhusband0005 said:


> yes asking a woman to not be at her sisters wedding and wedding shower is a wild request, that could have left her extremely angry for even making the suggestion.





happyhusband0005 said:


> It is very predictable that over the years as she gets invited and has to say know over and over she is going to build resentment over that rule.


@QuestionAssumptions has been dead on target on this. The OP's fears were realized even after doing everything he could to prevent that from happening.

If your "Jill" is the basis of your skewed reality then I'm not sure what that says about your wife and your boundaries. When a Husband (Op) can see the writing on the wall and tries to protect his marriage by creating boundaries and the wife (OP's) smashes right through those boundaries and then lies about it, doing EXACTLY what the OP was concerned about, and an apologist like yourself attributes that to resentment caused by said boundaries then you are victim blaming and giving the wife a pass for acting like a skank. If a wife commits infidelity because she is resentful of a husband trying to protect his marriage then she shouldn't be a wife any longer ... period.


> Now maybe what should have happened is the OP should have realized that his if wife was so suspect, that he felt the need to try and stop her from being at her sisters wedding shower and wedding, that he should have realized she was not wife material and ended things there.


So he should have just divorced her while overseas without making any attempt to prevent the issues from ever happening?
But she's justified for her infidelities because she's resentful.
OK. Wow, that is some serious mental gymnastics.
******
NO OP she is not telling the truth, send her packing unless you are good with her acting this way in the future because odds are extremely good she will given the time and opportunity (another deployment or business trip).


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I said in my first post I don't think he is to blame she decided to do whatever she might have done, but yes asking a woman to not be at her sisters wedding and wedding shower is a wild request, that could have left her extremely angry for even making the suggestion.


I think we're kinda threadjacking here and delving into general relationship and cheating psychology so I'm simply going to acknowledge that, yes, asking a wife not to attend her sisters wedding as the maid of honor is a major and extreme request and I do think you are making a legitimate point, in general, about resentment and leave it at that.


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## Jimi007 (5 mo ago)

Maybe, everyone is reading too much into this...I don't think it has anything to do with resentment...

20yrs old...very drunk...immature , guys groped her while dancing to see her reaction. She enjoys the attention...
I've seen men set women up , just like this exact senerio. 
She gets in the car with them....Yeah things happened 😳 
They made sure she was black out drunk .
She has guilt. But probably doesn't remember all the details....And just wants to forget.

You will never know unless you do some real digging


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

Megaforce said:


> Pretty easy distinction: voluntary actions vs involuntarily contracting a disease. See the difference?


I don't think the distinction is always that clear. Plenty of diseases are preventable. For example, if your spouse develops lung cancer after years of smoking, do you abandon them on the grounds that it was their choice to risk and get cancer?


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

Jimi007 said:


> 20yrs old...very drunk...immature , guys groped her while dancing to see her reaction. She enjoys the attention...
> I've seen men set women up , just like this exact senerio.
> She gets in the car with them....Yeah things happened 😳
> They made sure she was black out drunk .
> She has guilt. But probably doesn't remember all the details....And just wants to forget.


Part of what gets me about this story is that those men weren't random strangers in a bar taking advantage of some random woman. They were invited by the groom as his close friends to be in the wedding party and they did this to his bride's sister/maid of honor. Garbage people, even if she was deliberately fishing for trouble and they didn't know she was married.


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## John910 (28 d ago)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> I think we're kinda threadjacking here and delving into general relationship and cheating psychology so I'm simply going to acknowledge that, yes, asking a wife not to attend her sisters wedding as the maid of honor is a major and extreme request and I do think you are making a legitimate point, in general, about resentment and leave it at that.


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## ThreeHundo (Sep 20, 2021)

All the people that partied that night seem pretty open to telling you about that night. Why not just ask the guys what the hell happened that night instead of letting your wife beat you down like a dog? This has bugged you for years. It’s not magically going to go away. You need the truth and you need to be doing a better job of finding it.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> I think we're kinda threadjacking here and delving into general relationship and cheating psychology so I'm simply going to acknowledge that, yes, asking a wife not to attend her sisters wedding as the maid of honor is a major and extreme request and I do think you are making a legitimate point, in general, about resentment and leave it at that.


Since @John910 quoted this post, perhaps accidentally or maybe because it bothered him, I want to clarify rather than edit it. I do stand by what I said earlier in the thread that I think his fears proved to be warranted and he was prescient and not paranoid. I don't think this was his fault. We can debate endlessly in the abstract about whether he could have handled the request better or done something different, which is what I was trying to get out of, but he was trying to avert a tragedy he accurately anticipated from over 1000 miles away via phone. His wife and he did eventually come to a compromise of sorts with her promising to take measures to be safe, but unfortunately she totally lied about that and in the end, it looks like he couldn't trust her to do the right thing.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

John910 said:


> She also threatened that if I didn’t drop this we would end up divorced.


If you are still reading this, I'm curious exactly how she said this. There is a cheating story on another site where the husband got a hold of his wife's phone and she wouldn't give him the unlock code, telling him that they'd get divorced if he unlocked the phone and looked at it. Why? Because when she finally gave him the code, the phone contained proof that she'd had a physical affair and had cheated on him, which led to their divorce.

Was she threatening to divorce you because you wouldn't let the subject go and she was angry at you or was she warning you that if you keep pressing for information, the answers you get are going to lead to you divorcing her?


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## John910 (28 d ago)

I have read almost everyone's posts and everyone has said my wife is lying. I pretty much agree with that and as someone said I already knew the answer. I would like to clear up a few things. I appreciate QA's comming to my defense. So here goes.
First off my wife back then was not a drinker or party girl. She was however very young as was I. Her and I would go out dancing or to parties and have a good time. But she never expressed any desire to go party without me at the bars or anything like that. She was everything to me the girl of my dreams when we married and I think she loved me very much. I think she still does. We have two sons and she has been a good mother. I still love her and always will. 
That said let me move on:
When this happened as I said earlier I was on active duty in the Army (infantry). We were only married a little over a year when I was called to active duty. The year before that my son was born and during that year we had bought our first house. We got married very young (she was pregnant) I was 18 and she was 19. Now at 19 her at 20 I was called to active duty and deployed. This meant for the next 6 months she would be alone living on a soldiers allotment and taking care of our 1 year old son. Not an easy job and to top off she didn't drive. I have to add one more thing her parents were not very supportive of our marriage and told me I would ruin her life. It didn't help that she was pregnant before we got married. I hope this will explain better what we were both dealing with at the time.
Now along came her sisters wedding. My wife was asked to be maid of honor. As I said earlier since I wouldn't be home in time for the wedding I asked her not to accept. Someone posted I should have asked that the wedding date be after I got home. Surprise surprise I did but was told by my wife that her mother said to many plans were already in the works. So again knowing who she was going to be standing up with I asked if she would not accept the honor. I was jealous for several reasons. 
1. The guys she would be standing up with were all single and in there early 20's.
2. The guys were going to want to drink, party and celebrate. (that's kinda what the wedding party does at weddings).
3. The guys I'm sure would want to hit on pretty girls at the party
4. Guy's that are drinking are not concerned if an un-escorted girl is married or got a boyfriend.
5. Guy's would be looking to hookup if possible.
6. My un-escorted wife would be pushed together with these young guys (predators) as part of the wedding party. She would be expected to slow dance & party with them as they celebrate the bride and groom. (talk about putting the prey in with the wolf). Also walk down the aisle with the best man, ride in cars with them from the church to the reception, sit with them at the table both at the wedding and the shower I didn't know about. 
7. I also knew my wife was not a drinker. I also knew her parents wouldn't be looking out for her as there focus would be on the daughter that got married. My parents were not invited. I could go on an on but I think these are enough reasons for a man to be concerned that something bad would happen.
Also someone compared this to asking there spouse not to attend there sons Graduation because there ex would be there. That does not compare at all. I think if the spouse said I'm going out with my ex and party to celebrate my sons graduation. We plan on drinking, slow dancing and being alone together and I know she's horny so don't wait up. I doubt she would support him and say go have a good time. That's the difference as I see it. 
I would also like to add that my wife had been alone for 4 months already. This would be a chance to have some fun. I don't think she intended for anything to happen but it did. 1st at the shower unbeknown to me until later. Then again at the wedding. Someone said I put unreasonable rules of no slow dancing, no drinking and going home early. Those were her rules not mine. I never threatened to divorce her if she didn't comply. She said don't worry this is what I will do. But she didn't and then lied about it. I think she lied about it out of shame. Also I have talked to a therapist but she won't. I like the lie detector test but if she won't talk to a therapist I doubt she would do a lie detector.


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## John910 (28 d ago)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> If you are still reading this, I'm curious exactly how she said this. There is a cheating story on another site where the husband got a hold of his wife's phone and she wouldn't give him the unlock code, telling him that they'd get divorced if he unlocked the phone and looked at it. Why? Because when she finally gave him the code, the phone contained proof that she'd had a physical affair and had cheated on him, which led to their divorce.
> 
> Was she threatening to divorce you because you wouldn't let the subject go and she was angry at you or was she warning you that if you keep pressing for information, the answers you get are going to lead to you divorcing her?


I'm not sure..


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Megaforce said:


> What happens when he sits her down, tells her the consequences of continuing to lie, and, as will most likely happen, she lies? Divorce time?


I would, but both of them will always know that she was responsible for the lack of a marriage commitment and the resulting divorce.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

John910 said:


> I like the lie detector test but if she won't talk to a therapist I doubt she would do a lie detector.


In my first reply to this thread, I asked: "Are you willing to risk her divorce threat by pushing this? Are you willing to threaten divorce yourself based on what you know to find out more?"

Are you willing to use the threat of divorce to try to force her to come clean or take a polygraph? If not, then she'll probably continue to refuse and evade your questions since that's worked for her for years with you. But if you make that threat, there is a chance she'll take you up on it and there is a chance she'll call your bluff if you are bluffing.

You have some other options...

The first is to go to the men and convince them to tell you what happened that night and give you pictures or video if they have any (they may). They don't seem to respect you or your wife, so the best approach here might be to go through her sister and her husband by explaining to them that this thing that happened at their wedding because her sister made her the maid of honor and left her alone with the groom's predatory friends has been slowly destroying your marriage and it's getting near the end, if they care about her or you at all. Ask them to see the pictures and video of the shower and reception that you've never seen and they certainly have, without holding any back from you. Note that it's also possible that her brother-in-law and/or her sister already know what happened in that car and they don't even need to ask. The question is whether they'll tell you and help you.

If they talk to the men for you, they shouldn't tell the men that they are asking for you but because they want to know and you need to convince them that you need the whole truth, no matter how awful it is, to possibly move on from this. If you try to appeal directly to those men, if simply asking them for more information doesn't work, you may want to try to get them to brag about what they did because it sounds like they are enjoying messing with you and don't respect you or her. There is a risk that they'll tell you something you'll want to beat the snot out of them over. It's also possible they'll never tell you or your wife's brother-in-law what happened because taking advantage of a drunk woman is basically sexual assault.

The second option is to appeal to your wife and to explain that after your conversation with those men who were alone with her, where they hinted she did far worse than sit on laps or get groped, that you are imagining the worst happened with them. You already know that she's been lying to you, which is destroying your trust in her. You are now assuming she has cheated on you because she's clearly lying and making excuses like a cheater. Print out and give her the documents that I referenced earlier or ones like them (click here, click here). Basically, the goal is to convince her that staying the course is failing and is going to end in divorce and that she needs to tell you the truth. This may work if what happened to her that night isn't the worst you and she could possibly imagine. Of course she might also be lying about that, too. And keep in mind that they may have essentially sexually assaulted her while she was too drunk to know what she was doing and she may not fully remember what she did and feel responsible for putting herself in that situation, which she did despite your warnings, though it doesn't mean she deserved it.

What she also need to realize is that for you, this isn't something that happened in the deep past but a fresh wound that keeps getting opened every time someone confirms she's been lying to you and hints that even worse happened than you'd thought.

All of those still might fail for you because...



John910 said:


> I'm not sure..


Maybe figuring out why she mentioned divorce is what you really need to get out of her first. If she did something really terrible with those guys (e.g., a drunken gangbang) or even simply had oral or straight sex with one or more of them, then she's probably assuming you'll divorce her if she tells the truth. So what she said to you about divorce might not have been her threatening to divorce you so much as warning you that the truth will lead you to divorce her. Tell her that's what she seem to be telling you and see if she'll acknowledge it or explain it better to you.

So the other really important question to ask yourself is what can you forgive your wife for and what will you divorce her over?

If she believes the truth will lead you to divorce her, she has no reason to tell you the truth. Even if you threaten her with divorce, that's simply giving her a choice between divorce and divorce and at least if she keeps lying, she can pretend to herself and others that the divorce isn't her fault. If you can offer to try to forgive her in exchange for the truth, then that tilts the balance in favor of telling the truth if she believes you. Can you see yourself forgiving the worst you can imagine her telling you? Or do you consider any sexual contact a deal breaker that will lead to divorce?

And as a warning, a lot of men think they can forgive their unfaithful wives because they love them and try to forgive and reconcile with them and find out that they can't do it and fail. Knowing the truth, unless it's really mild and minor, will likely forever change the way you look at her and your relationship with her.

Also, if your wife is fully honest with you or even if you just get more information by other means, you may find out that you aren't married to the woman you think you are married to. A lot of your story makes more sense to me if I assume your wife fully intended to get drunk and party, was just giving you lip-service about being careful, and she either did exactly what she set out to do or it went a little further than she'd wanted after she got into that car. That she so quickly and easily ignored her promises she made to you and lied to you from the beginning is suspicious. It's not like she forgot a thing or two. She threw everything out the door. The dress she wore may be a clue to that, too, that she was prepared to party. There may be a lot more you don't know about those nights and other nights.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> I don't think the distinction is always that clear. Plenty of diseases are preventable. For example, if your spouse develops lung cancer after years of smoking, do you abandon them on the grounds that it was their choice to risk and get
> 
> 
> QuestionAssumptions said:
> ...


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

At this point what I get from OP is that he will be doing nothing, other than add another deeper layer of resentment if he were to confirm what he already knows to be the truth.

So, it seems that OP will ruminate for the rest of his life knowing that his wife put one on him and can't really prove it, and she will take it to the grave.

So my question to OP is: why are you bothering, if you know that you won't do a thing other than ***** about it?

The correct thing should had been to divorce her when you knew, instead you have spent the rest of your life going at it. like if that would make you dump her. Truth is you won't do a thing. 

If confirmation will give you peace of mind and finally bury it, as suggested before, getting the actual facts from one of the dudes that left with her is your best bet.


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## lmucamac (4 mo ago)

The actual question is ”Does it matter now”? Only you can decide this.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Rob_1 said:


> The correct thing should had been to divorce her when you knew, instead you have spent the rest of your life going at it. like if that would make you dump her. Truth is you won't do a thing.


Yes to everything. I have tried to figure out how long ago this was, but find nowhere OP said. I am guessing two decades, and it has been eating on him that whole time.

OP, your wife will never tell you the truth of what happened. But a lot of internet strangers know from what you described exactly what transpired. You know too but can’t bear admitting it which is why your posts are full of excuses for her. You are probably topic of discussion and humor everytime the college friends of your wife get together.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

Rob_1 said:


> At this point what I get from OP is that he will be doing nothing, other than add another deeper layer of resentment if he were to confirm what he already knows to be the truth.
> 
> So, it seems that OP will ruminate for the rest of his life knowing that his wife put one on him and can't really prove it, and she will take it to the grave.
> 
> ...


Well, not neccesarily. He may pull the trigger now that he has received support. The fact that he has done nothing to this point is not determinative, I have read quite a few posts where the spouse finally reaches a point, sometimes after decades, where he pulls out.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

Rus47 said:


> You are probably topic of discussion and humor everytime the college friends of your wife get together.


These are "college friends" and it sounds like fraternity brothers of her brother-in-law that he invited into the wedding party, which is why I think the brother-in-law and possibly the wife's sister (if he had the guts to tell her) may already know what happened without even needing to ask those guys. If they talk about this stuff with each other, they've probably said at least something to him throughout the years, too.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> they talk about this stuff with each other, they've probably said at least something to him throughout the years, too.


No doubt there are bunch of people besides OP that have known the score. Including people that the original cast of characters have told. If it is a small town, everyone in it know the story of the night OPs wife pulled the train.

OP is the only one who doesn’t and will never know. She isnt going to tell him because it would only make life difficult for her.

BTW, if he thinks the thing her sis’s wedding was his wifes only rodeo while he was safely deployed from home, IMO he has no imagination.

But if it was 2 decades ago, he needs to ask if it makes any difference. IMO he would be smart to stop asking questions lest he get answers that make his misery worse.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

Rus47 said:


> BTW, if he thinks the thing her sis’s wedding was his wifes only rodeo while he was safely deployed from home, IMO he has no imagination.


Doing paternity tests on the children might help the wife realize just how thoroughly she's destroyed his trust in her with her lies, even if he's confident that the children are his. If she fights him doing it, that could also be telling.



Rus47 said:


> But if it was 2 decades ago, he needs to ask if it makes any difference. IMO he would be smart to stop asking questions lest he get answers that make his misery worse.


I've been guessing a bit more than a decade from what he's said.

The problem is that even if he lets it go, it sounds like he's going to keep finding himself around people in her family and among their friends that know what happened and will bring it up occasionally to remind him. He took the "let it go" route for years and clearly it's not working and may only be a matter of time before those guys work up the guts to tell him what happened in more detail. Other people certainly remember what happened and find it amusing enough to keep bringing it up, even years later. And that last interaction included strong enough hints that something awful happened that he may be well past the point of letting it go now.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Megaforce said:


> Well, not neccesarily.


See below.



John910 said:


> We have two sons and she has been a good mother. I still love her and always will.


After that statement, he continues to summarize everything that happened in an apologia tone.

No one can't ever be certain of anything, but if there's something I had learned is to read between the lines as to what an OP is saying. Sometimes we see it comes a mile away, like you'd just know when an OP will not be able to pass the first couple of raw truth being said to him/her. They can't not handle it and never post again. Gone.

It doesn't mean that this OP, might in the end not do anything, but chances are in his particular situation that he will do just as I said. Most people that would take a stand, they pretty much do it when it happened. A smaller percentage it takes them years to take a stand.

Comparing this OP with the countless that has come and go on these fora that were pretty much in his situation, the end result was to continue in the relationship without ever resolving the issue.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

@John910

Understanding the difference between regret and remorse might also be helpful for you when you talk to your wife.









Remorse vs Regret vs Guilt: Differences Easy Explained


Discover the important differences between remorse vs regret vs guilt as explained by a life coach who deals with these topics regularly ✅.




www.coaching-online.org







> Both regret and remorse involve feeling bad for one’s actions.
> 
> The difference is: *remorse *involves feeling bad because you hurt someone else, but you can *regret* an action without caring whether it hurt someone.
> 
> Maybe you regret stealing a cake because you got caught and now you face a punishment, for example. You’d only feel remorse if you felt bad for the cake’s owner. Also, remorse leads to one taking responsibility for the actions and trying to right their wrong, whereas regret might not.


Right now, it sounds lie your wife has regret but not remorse. She's trying to protect herself, her reputation (which already seems pretty trashed with those you've talked about), and her marriage but she's not trying to help or protect you. She sounds upset she was caught in her lies and wants to avoid punishment and your wrath. That she tried to deflect the subject by accusing you of cheating and asks you to drop the subject illustrates that . What you need to move past where you are with her is for her to realize that what she's done (including the years of lying and ignoring your concerns) has hurt you, continues to hurt you, and for her to care enough about that to admit to and own what she did and to do what you need her to do in order to move forward.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> Other people certainly remember what happened and find it amusing enough to keep bringing it up, even years later. And that last interaction included strong enough hints that something awful happened that he may be well past the point of letting it go now.


Yes. Those people love twisting the knife. Watching him squirm. Lowlifes (his wife’s friends and relatives) which kinda points out her character or lack of. Eventually someone will get old enough and drunk enough to spill the whole sordid story.

So, if he is determined to stay with this “prize”, he should avoid ever gathering with any of then ever again. Grey rock all of them. Because none of them are friends of OP or his marriage


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Things it would be helpful for 

How many years ago this happened and her behavior since.

Why she feels it’s ok to threaten to divorce over Reasonable questions about her activities as his wife.

why he has been scared to get to the truth immediately back years ago when this happened.

How OP feels about his wife’s loyalty NOW.

What would OP do with the truth were he to learn for sure she cheated?

Why even now, OP is scared to demand a polygraph or divorce HER.

OP,
You might consider more deeply a polygraph. You might find that you’d be lifting a huge burden of guilt from your wife getting this out, even though you’d clearly have to force it out of her. You DO have the right. Or she may want a divorce just to cover up the shame of the truth because she values herself more than you. Either way, only you can determine the extent you’re willing to go to in order to get the truth, what you’ll do with it, and what the consequences will be to your marriage.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

Rob_1 said:


> See below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, no one knows what he will do. Just seen to much variation to feel there is a pattern. Many folks do, eventually wake up. It is not that rare of a story.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

John910 said:


> My question will be a bit lengthy. Several years ago, while I was on active duty with the army... my wife...


Military wife? She cheated on you while you were away.



> The lies about these 2 events seem never ending. She still insists that nothing at all sexual happened between her and any of these 4 college guys. She also threatened that if I didn’t drop this we would end up divorced.


I agree with her. Let it go (rug sweep) or divorce. The choice is yours.



> Finally my question: After hearing my story of these events if you were me would you believe her when she say’s nothing at all happened?


No, I wouldn't believe her.


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## TinyTbone (6 mo ago)

Ok, you have heard from very experienced people here. Most have agreed in point on what probably did occur. You never said your ages now, but ots probably 10 or more years since the "incident" happened. I know how this feels as there was an incident for my wife over 30 years ago. We've been together 38 years now. I will never know the full truth for a fact. The person involved has died this year. Even if I did get the whole truth from her now, the waters are muddied and I'd not know either way if I did hear the truth. So I decided to let the sleeping dog lie. She has been a great wife to me for all these years now, with exception of a few items and we've hammered those out now. The truth would only serve to still the mind movies for me, but cause resentment and pain for us both. Life goes on.
You have to decide if you're ready to lose your marriage to gain the whole truth and then probably be so psychologically damaged by it, that divorce would still be out come. If she been a wonderful wife to you all these years then decide to stay or divorce. I however suggest that if she wants to move forward forgive each other and just bury it, that you move far away and disassociate you both from your past there. Stops the triggers of her family and chance run ins with the now men in question. Give her these as options and then go from there. See a therapist to help remove the mind movies either way. Things like this eat at your soul like cancer.
.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> Note that it's possible that things never went further than groping or even that the guys were making that up, but her previously lies and deception, inability to consistently account for what she did, divorce threat if he keeps asking about it, and the guys' dare to ask his wife how she got home that night after talking about her like a piece of meat they enjoyed playing with all suggest that at least a bit more happened, which could have been anything from more flagrant groping or oral sex through to group sex with all of them. And it's possible they have pictures of what happened, too. Since the OP has no trust at this point, he's left to imagine the worst.
> 
> There is a classic fable that I was taught as a child that explains how, if you lie, people will stop believing you, even if you tell the truth. I'm going to post it here to help people that never learned this important lesson, because so many people these days seem utterly confused and suprised that once they are caught lying, they are no longer believed about anything. It's amazing to me how many people expect there to be no consequences for lying.
> 
> The Boy Who Cried Wolf


That reminds me so much of Meghan Markle. She has lied so many times that it's impossible to tell now either way.


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## TheGodfather (1 mo ago)

John910 said:


> I have read almost everyone's posts and everyone has said my wife is lying. I pretty much agree with that and as someone said I already knew the answer. I would like to clear up a few things. I appreciate QA's comming to my defense. So here goes.
> First off my wife back then was not a drinker or party girl. She was however very young as was I. Her and I would go out dancing or to parties and have a good time. But she never expressed any desire to go party without me at the bars or anything like that. She was everything to me the girl of my dreams when we married and I think she loved me very much. I think she still does. We have two sons and she has been a good mother. I still love her and always will.
> That said let me move on:
> When this happened as I said earlier I was on active duty in the Army (infantry). We were only married a little over a year when I was called to active duty. The year before that my son was born and during that year we had bought our first house. We got married very young (she was pregnant) I was 18 and she was 19. Now at 19 her at 20 I was called to active duty and deployed. This meant for the next 6 months she would be alone living on a soldiers allotment and taking care of our 1 year old son. Not an easy job and to top off she didn't drive. I have to add one more thing her parents were not very supportive of our marriage and told me I would ruin her life. It didn't help that she was pregnant before we got married. I hope this will explain better what we were both dealing with at the time.
> ...


here is the question . how is your marriage now? is it good? is it everything you have ever wanted? the reason i ask this is because after reading this it seems her family would probably not be upset if she left you. and even until this day they put you in position to hear more about this wedding stuff. it is working and causing issues between you and your spouse. 
is she doing anything now or since you have been back to lead you to believe she is having an affair right now or recently? if not i say enjoy what you have right now. forget about the past because if your marriage and family right now is everything you have ever wanted and she is being good to you and a good wife, all you will do by digging into this is make yourself crazy and give her parents the wish they want. and that is you gone. by the way as a side note her parents not wanting you too together is only going to make her try harder to be with you.. the future is yours and thank you for service in military. i hope this helps


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

This kind of stuff is slow poison. It's a cancer that slowly grows on one's psyche and if left untreated can easily toxify and destroy an otherwise functional relationship. 

Did she have actual sexual contact with anyone years ago?? Short of a full confession from either her or the other person(s), we'll probably never know. Sex by it's very nature takes place behind closed doors when no one else is watching. 

A 20 year old that doesn't drive that's been home by herself raising raising a baby and now get's out for a fun and festive night with friends and family..... yeah she's gonna dance and party and flirt and enjoy the attentions of a little older single guys telling her how cute and fun she is. The earth revolves around the sun and it rotates around it's axis and the sun comes up in the east..... and 20 year old girlz dance and party and enjoy the attentions of horny men flirting with them and telling them how great they are. 

Did she have sexual intercourse or oral sex or a heavy make out session with any of them? Maybe, Maybe not. But probably nothing short of a full confession by either party will ever prove it. 

And it's very hard if not impossible to prove that someone did not get down with someone. 

Much of this is going to depend on her general character the other 30 some years of her life. Is she irresponsible and impulsive? Does she lose control of her faculties when she has any alcohol? Is she a chronic lier and lies about a lot of things including things that really aren't all that significant. Does she lie about big things? Is she above rules and laws and do whatever she wants to do regardless of rules and laws and guidelines in place? Do rules only apply to other people and not to her? Does she disregard other people's feelings and only cares about her own self? Does she freguently seek instant gratification for what she wants in the moment without regard to any future ramifications and consequences?

And probably even more importantly, in the umpteen years since this wedding has she had trouble adhering to boundaries and expectations of fidelity in regards to other men or has she had a history of inappropriate conduct or outright cheating in the years since the wedding?

If there are a number of 'yes' answers to the above, then there is a realistic chance she could have done more that just had a night of fun and partying. 

But if the answers above are all a consistent no, then the chances are good she just had a night of dancing and shaking her booty and getting her ego stroked by some attractive guys flirting her up but most likely did not engage in any actual sexual contact. 

You kinda have to look at the person as a whole over the course of the years and at the big picture. If her character indicates she has trouble with boundaries and inappropriate behavior over time and space, then it's more likely that she stepped over the line that night. 

If she has always been a good decent, law abiding citizen and a good loyal and responsible friend and neighbor and a faithful wife and dutiful mother for the remainder of her life, then it is much much less likely that this one night of her life that she was some kind of out of control sex beast. 

If she has had trouble with boundaries and fidelity and inappropriate behavior for the course of the marriage, then you need to figure out if you want to continue to remain with her or not. 

But if she has shown no tendency towards irresponsibility, impulsiveness, trouble controling her conduct when drinking, inappropriate interaction with other men, cheating etc in the years you have been married and raising a family, then this is most likely a YOU issue and an insecurity on your end. 

But the catch is BOTH can be as equally threatening to a marriage. Even if she never laid a hand on another man that night, if this is driving you crazy and causing you to dig up trouble where none existed before, it can be just as toxic and just as destructive as if she actually did have inappropriate contact with someone else. 

If you have tangible reason to believe she has sexual contact with someone else during the marriage, then you have an issue with her and will need to determine if you want to remain with her or not. 

But if there is no tangible reason to believe that and you are continually bugging her about it and driving yourself crazy, then the issue is within yourself and you would be wise to seek some kind of counseling or therapy so that you are not the one behind the destruction of your marriage.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

One last question: 

what kind of trashy ass family talks up their female relative’s years previous wedding shenanigans with other men, TO HER HUSBAND????????

Doesn’t speak to highly of OP’s wife to have relatives or friends like that. OP, we’re I you in that situation, I’d have quizzed then further to get all the info and then invited them all outside to talk further, and explain how you didn’t ever want to hear the story again, and let them know you’d gladly give them a demonstration of the consequences of bringing it up again.
And I’d be suspicious of the truth of anything such men said. Sounds like they just like to stir bs


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Evinrude58 said:


> One last question:
> 
> what kind of trashy ass family talks up their female relative’s years previous wedding shenanigans with other men, TO HER HUSBAND????????
> 
> ...


Yeah that is also something that is kind of fishy. 

He did say that her family didn't like him. Maybe they just don't care that much one way or another what he knows or what he thinks. They may have been digging it that she was interacting with and having fun with these other guys and deep down were hoping she would leave him. 

On one hand they may have been complicit with her having a good ol' time with other people, but at the same time trying to keep it under wraps so that he wouldn't come home and abuse her or raise hell with everyone so they all just kind of kept it amongst themselves at the time, but aren't afraid to trickle truth a little here and there to kind of get some digs on him.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

TinyTbone said:


> I however suggest that if she wants to move forward forgive each other and just bury it, that you move far away and disassociate you both from your past there. Stops the triggers of her family and chance run ins with the now men in question. Give her these as options and then go from there. See a therapist to help remove the mind movies either way. Things like this eat at your soul like cancer.


It may be too late to let this go after that last encounter, where the comments from those men who were personally involved and know what happened and his wife's poor attempts at lying her way out of it removed the uncertainty he'd previously had that let him continue to let himself believe that maybe nothing happened and he could trust her. That he's talked to a therapist and asked her to suggest that this is hurting him more deeply emotionally than his fact-oriented messages suggest.

That said, this is also a reasonable option for @John910 if he can do it and rug sweep it away in his mind. It sounds like he was largely able to forget about this incident for years at a time but her cousins and those men kept bringing up details that only opened the wound again. Will time make this problem fade again in his mind or has it reached the point where he can no longer put it out of his mind?

@John910, have you clearly explained to your wife what you are thinking and assuming now and why this is hurting you? That even though you've tried to trust her and assume the best over the years that your heartbreak and suspicion have reached the point where you can no longer believe that nothing happened based on what those men said and her emotional reaction and refusal to talk to you more about it? That it hurts you deeply because she ignored your warnings at the time to protect herself for you and she totally lied about the nature of the events and precautions she said she'd take to protect herself, both before and after? That she wasn't there at the time when you tried to call her because you were worried about her and were left to helplessly wonder from a thousand miles away if she was safe? That it hurts that the men and others you've talked to seem to be laughing and looking down on her as well as you ever since over her behavior? That it hurts hearing men talk about the woman you loves like a trashy piece of meat that they played with and discarded while she was drunk? That it's eroded your trust in her that you may now wonder for the rest of your lives what else she's lied to you about over the years? In other words, does she understand the full extent to which this is hurting you and our relationship without any closure?

Her family and her sister's husband's poor choice of friends seems to be at the heart of most of this, both with respect to what happened at the wedding and bringing it up again since. Rather than watch over and protect her and your marriage, they put her in a dangerous situation where she could be abused. Whenever you or someone else brings her and the wedding up and mention that she's your wife, they all seem to remember her as the attractive girl who went wild at the shower, behaved intimately and inappropriately with the college guys, and then drove off alone with them because of her poor choices and their abuse of it. It sounds like you've always had a pretty toxic relationship with them. If your wife wants to bury that past and you are willing to, too, then getting away from her family and their trashy friends that were at that wedding and are a constant reminder of what happened may be a good way to do that. Is that something you could do, since it sounds like your family is there as well? Is it something she would do?

But if your wife isn't willing to go to therapy at your request and isn't willing to stop lying about what happened and come clean, then how much is she willing to do to save your marriage? Will she agree to move away from her family for her husband, marriage, and family together if you ask her to? Was her threat of divorce to warn you away from digging deeper or was it because she's already decided to give up rather than try to help you over your feelings about what happened? If you threatened her with divorce, would that encourage her to get more involved with getting past this (such as going to therapy with and without you, telling the truth, and/or cutting contact with her family) or would she rather give up her life with you and leave you rather than do any of that face what happened and what it's doing to your relationship? At this point, are you willing to let things continue as they have, with her refusing to talk more with you about it or attend therapy and you backing down about what happened or have you reached the point where you are willing to end your marriage if she won't engage with you on this instead of continuing to endure the pain this is causing you?

What has your therapist told you about this?


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

oldshirt said:


> Did she have sexual intercourse or oral sex or a heavy make out session with any of them? Maybe, Maybe not. But probably nothing short of a full confession by either party will ever prove it.
> [...]
> Much of this is going to depend on her general character the other 30 some years of her life. Is she irresponsible and impulsive? Does she lose control of her faculties when she has any alcohol? Is she a chronic lier and lies about a lot of things including things that really aren't all that significant. Does she lie about big things?


Based on what the OP has described, for years he was able to forget about this and assume innocence because the uncertainty made innocence a plausible possibility. What changed is that each additional time he got more information proving his wife had been deliberately lying to him and it made the idea that nothing happened less and less plausible to the point where he can no longer assume it.

He has assessed her overall character and has pointed out that he's never seen her drink to excess or party. He's said he loves her and she's a good mother. That's why he kept letting this go for many years and accepted her answers when she said she'd done nothing.

But all of the evidence that's trickled out over the years from her relatives and the men that took her away alone in a car while she was drunk and that she's said she can't clearly remember what happened suggests that on at least that one night, she did act irresponsibly and impulsively and let herself be alone with predatory men who, to this day, talk about her like a piece of meat that they toyed with. Everything he's heard indicated she did lose control of her faculties because of excessive alcohol. She has casually and chronically lied about just about everything she did during those wedding-related events fand the precautions she promised she'd take while there from the very beginning and did exactly what he asked her not to do and she assured him she wouldn't do. And being intimate with other men, even if it was only sitting on their laps and letting them grope her backside, is a pretty a big thing to lie about when she's long assured him she only had one glass of champaign and nothing happened.

She got into a car alone with a bunch of predatory men who were plying her with drinks all night and tried to lie to claim it wasn't so, and those same men essentially dared the OP to ask his wife how she got home that night because they likely knew she wouldn't tell him the truth and that would humiliate or destroy him, further illustrating what kind of garbage she got into that car with. That was after they'd told him that they'd groped her and she'd sat on their lap. And when he backed her against a corner with facts and started calling out her contradictions and lies, the way she lashed out, asking how he knew things and accusing him of wrongdoing, are how guilty people react when caught. There is too much smoke there for there not to be some sort of fire causing it.

Basically, that nothing happened has stopped being a believable option with that final revelation and response from his wife. She can't provide a detailed account that makes it plausible to believe nothing happened at this point. The men who she drove off alone with that night with made sure of that. And it sounds like they deliberately tossed a bomb at her by asking him to ask her how she got home that night. Great best friends for her sister's husband to have, right?



oldshirt said:


> If you have tangible reason to believe she has sexual contact with someone else during the marriage, then you have an issue with her and will need to determine if you want to remain with her or not.


He had the men who were involved tell him that they groped his wife and that she sat on their lap. They seemed to remember it pretty vividly years later and they talked about her like a piece of meat that they played with for a while and discarded. And they told him to ask his wife how she got home that night (alone with them), which was basically daring him to ask her about something that they know she wouldn't want to talk about and he wouldn't want to hear.

He didn't continually bug her about it over the years for no reason. He periodically asked her for more information about what happened everytime someone else brought up more information about that night that indicated she'd gone wind and had been lying to him about what happened. He's not being paranoid. It simply finally became clear that she'd been lying about just about everything and that what she was hiding wasn't harmless and innocent like some dancing or even flirting. She's since admitted to things she lied about in the past and the comments from the men who she went with make it pretty clear that they don't respect her or the OP and that even only going by the details they revealed, she engaged in inappropriate behavior with them that she's been lying about from the beginning. If his only concerns were about the drinking and dancing and nothing more, I doubt he'd be here. 

I find it pretty amazing that people keep trying to portray the OP as an unreasonable person here. Yes, asking his wife not to attend her sister's wedding as the maid of honor was a huge ask and it's understandable that she'd refuse, but it turns out he knew exactly how things would play out while his wife recklessly ignored his concerns and her own promises to be careful, putting herself in the situation they are in now. It turns out that his "unreasonable request" to skip the wedding may have been the only way he could have prevented what happened, because trusting his wife failed and her family and her sister's husbands "good buddies" that he invited into the wedding party clearly didn't give enough of a damn to prevent it, either. Her sister's husband basically invited the wolves into the hen house. What fraternity did they all belong to in college? Rho Alpha Pi Epsilon?



oldshirt said:


> The earth revolves around the sun and it rotates around it's axis and the sun comes up in the east..... and 20 year old girlz dance and party and enjoy the attentions of horny men flirting with them and telling them how great they are.


And they can wind up being plied with drinks by malicious horny men who take advantage of them, which is exactly what the OP anticipated and feared from the start and warned his wife about. Why are people so eager to excuse reckless behavior by young men and women that quite often ends badly and destroys relationships and marriages (and in this case may, too) as if its unavoidable and normal? The OP anticipated the problem, discussed it with his wife, tried to take measures to prevent it, and she ignored him and put herself in a situation where it happened anyway. This wasn't a natural disaster.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

Evinrude58 said:


> And I’d be suspicious of the truth of anything such men said. Sounds like they just like to stir bs


I agree that they shouldn't be trusted but don't agree it was _just _stirring BS. By asking him to ask his wife how she got home that night, they must have known that they were asking him to ask her something difficult that she'd be unwilling to talk about, which strongly indicates that something happened after she left with them in that car that they know she wouldn't want to talk about and would hurt her husband. And the strong way that she reacted to his questioning about the details also points to something happening and her hiding something big.

But, yes, those guys are utter garbage. That's why I think he should speak alone to the sister and brother-in-law, make sure her sister knows what happened during her wedding and that her husband is the one who invited those who were responsible for getting his wife wasted and driving off alone with her into the wedding party and has apparently remained friends with them in the years since. Does she care that they took advantage of her sister at the wedding she invited her sister to participate in? Does her husband? Does she care about how they think and talk about her sister and talk to her husband? Does her husband? If she's OK with it and he's OK with it, then they're garbage, too, in my opinion. And if her sister isn't OK with it and respects @John910 at all, that may be the best way for him to get to the bottom of what happened and then move on to working out whether he can forgive his wife for it once he's learned what happened.

They also almost certainly still have pictures from the wedding and the shower party which might also provide clues as to what happened if they'll show them to him.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Predatory men????????? 
A bunch of single, horny, young guys enjoying a bunch of party girls is not “predatory men”.

this term is being abused in my opinion.
It’s not very difficult for. Married woman to tell a man to leave her the f alone, I’ve see it happen.

Lots of women get overly drunk to try to avoid responsibility for their actions every day. If the OP ever gets the truth, one can safely bet that liquor will be her immediate go to excuse.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

Evinrude58 said:


> Predatory men?????????
> A bunch of single, horny, young guys enjoying a bunch of party girls is not “predatory men”.


Frat boys plying a young woman who is too young to legally drink full of liquor and then carting her off alone in a car is predatory behavior. They were involved in getting her drunk, not passive spectators. That they talk about her with utter disrespect in front of her husband shows that these are not good men. They are garbage. I don't know why people are defending garbage.



Evinrude58 said:


> this term is being abused in my opinion.
> It’s not very difficult for. Married woman to tell a man to leave her the f alone, I’ve see it happen.


Which is why they kept handing her drinks until she got drunk enough that she may honestly not be able to remember what happened after she got into that car. And that's without even speculating what a bunch of frat boys with a reputation for partying might have added to the drinks before they handed them to her.



Evinrude58 said:


> Lots of women get overly drunk to try to avoid responsibility for their actions every day. If the OP ever gets the truth, one can safely bet that liquor will be her immediate go to excuse.


People need to meet better people. I don't drink but when I was in college, I went to quite a few parties with drinking. In one I went to with people on my dorm floor, one of the freshman girls got drunk and got friendly with a guy who was friends of some of the other guys from the dorm floor since high school. The guys who saw what was going on intervened to prevent it from going further, even though she got angry with them. The men involved in those situations make moral choices, too. And there is a reason why having sex with highly intoxicated women is considered sexual assault. And if something happened here, the OP may want to consider it that, too. I'm amazed that people excuse this as natural and normal.

And I'll again point out that this is exactly why the OP didn't want his wife to attend this wedding and the parties alone and didn't want her drinking, because he knew this sort of stuff happens. It played out exactly the way he feared it would because his wife didn't take the precaution she said she'd take to assure him he could trust her and nothing bad would happen. And that, too, is because people seem to believe that taking precautions to prevent these things from happening are unreasonable and his wife apparently did, too. So what everyone seems to be saying is that people should just expect infidelity from young men and women and doing anything to stop it is unreasonable. Is that really what everyone believes? 😯

And, again, I do think it's unclear how willing the wife was in going along with what happened. Was she looking to do wild partying all along? Did it go too far or was the groping and lap sitting something she set out to do because she wanted a wild fling after being away from her husband for 4 months? Did it go further than she intended? To what degree did the garbage guys take advantage of her and to what degree was she a willing participant? Only the wife and those men can answer that, but the evidence so far suggests the guys are predatory garbage who saw his wife as a piece of meat to play with. As for how unhappy the wife is about what happened after she got into that car, if she can remember it, seeing the pictures of her at the wedding after the shower where that happened might show how she felt at the time. Did she look unhappy or troubled? Did she avoid those guys or look uncomfortable near them or was she happy to party some more with them. And even if she looked happy, was that because she couldn't remember or as a defense mechanism, not because she didn't care? This is why I think the OP may get a lot of answers from her sister and brother-in-law if her sister and brother-in-law are willing to talk to him honestly about what happened. But being sisters, she might want to sweep it all under the rug, too.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I don’t disAgree. But OP’s wife is the main one to blame. She knew as well as anyone what she was doing.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

Evinrude58 said:


> I don’t disAgree. But OP’s wife is the main one to blame. She knew as well as anyone what she was doing.


There can be degrees of fault, especially when it comes to determining if what happened is forgivable or not or how someone should be punished. This is recognized in many other areas of life, including in civil law settilements and in criminal laws having different "degrees" based on intent, recklessness, and the role of others in the crime.

If his wife set out from the beginning to get drunk and have sex that night, I think that's very different than if she naively wanted to party, enjoy some attention from other men, and thought she could control herself and the situation to stop well short of sex, and things went a lot further than she expected when she got too inebriated to think straight. Given the dress she wore and the statements about sitting on laps and being groped, it seems her boundaries were well beyond what they should have been and she shouldn't simply blame the alcohol for that. It's also possible that she intended to misbehave. But it's also possible that she was so intoxicated by the time she got into that car that she honestly can't clearly remember getting into it or what happened after that and that the men took advantage of her intoxication to have their way with her. That is different than intentionally getting into a car with them because she wanted to have sex with them.

Does she bear blame for lying to her husband about the event and not respecting the barriers she said she'd put in place to protect herself? Absolutely yes. Does she bear blame for accepting the drinks, especially after she promised not to drink? Yes. Was she being irresponsible and reckless by playing with fire after being warned? Yes. Does she bear some responsibility for the choices she made even while intoxicated? Up until a point, but very intoxicated people can't really give consent and that's something different to forgive than her deliberately seeking out sex with others. But poor judgement, hubris, or naivety are not the same as intentionally looking for trouble.

Was what happened a mistake? I wouldn't call it that. She was warned. She chose to do the things she promised she wouldn't that led to her getting into that car drunk before she was drunk. And that may have led to her doing something to hurt her husband that she can't undo and never take back. So in that regard, this is on her. But she lives in a culture that says it's OK and expected for a girl to go out and party like that and even that she should be expected to to show that she's strong, independent, and confident and that it's her right to do so and that that it's unreasonable to expect restraint or take measures to prevent things from going awry. She was likely told it was unreasonable for her husband to restrict what she could do and she shouldn't have to listen to him. Several people have argued those points here. "I'm not stupid." "I won't let it get out of hand." "I know what I'm doing." Those words appear in how many affair stories? Why do so many people think that way, and did she?

But what differentiates murder from manslaughter from reckless homicide is intent and behavior. An intentional act is different from a crime of passion, and both are different from recklessness. And they're all different from accidentally killing someone. What is the wife guilty of here? Assuming she didn't set out to have sex with another man (and I don't think that's 100% certain), what she's guilty of is likely the equivalent of accidentally killing someone you intended to only beat up (something going further than intended) or reckless homicide (reckless behavior leading to something awful). I don't think she committed the equivalent premeditated murder of her marriage (unless that was her intent) but she was either playing with fire and let it get out of hand or she was being irresponsibly reckless. And that may have led to the death of her marriage, even if that wasn't her intent.

The OP will need to decide if he can overlook or forgive her if she had sex or performed sex acts with those men after getting into that car, regardless of why it happened. It sounds like the OP believes he was her "first" and she may have been his, and if she's had sex with other men, they are no longer each other's only one and that crushes a lot of people and they can't forgive or forget it. Some people cannot forgive any sort of infidelity because it makes their spouse dirty in there eyes. If the OP feels that way and he's now certain that she cheated, then their marriage may already be over. So regardless of whether or not it matters to you or me, what matters a great deal is whether those details matter to the OP and will effect his ability to forgive his wife for what happened.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> Based on what the OP has described, for years he was able to forget about this and assume innocence because the uncertainty made innocence a plausible possibility. What changed is that each additional time he got more information proving his wife had been deliberately lying to him and it made the idea that nothing happened less and less plausible to the point where he can no longer assume it.
> 
> He has assessed her overall character and has pointed out that he's never seen her drink to excess or party. He's said he loves her and she's a good mother. That's why he kept letting this go for many years and accepted her answers when she said she'd done nothing.
> 
> ...


If she had sex with them, it was of her own free will and consent. She was dancing and partying with a group of guys that turned her on and she had an opportunity to get with them and she took it. 

If she did not have sex with them, then she didn't. 

Again, unless someone comes forward and admits to it, we will probably never know. 

What's complicating things a bit here is back in the day people didn't like the OP and likely at least covered for her if not actually encouraged and supported her getting with these other dudes and were then OK rubbing little bits of the night into his face years later like it was some kind of nudge-nudge-wink-wink-yuck-yuck. 

The question for the OP here is how much time and energy and headspace he is willing to devote to trying to track down what a bunch of 20somethings did one night probably 10 or more years ago. How much is he willing to do to determine if she had a drunken party night with some dudes on the chance she may have had sex vs whether he is willing to further jeopardize their current relationship on the chance she did not get with anyone? 

Is he willing to risk what he has now to uncover what a 20 year old with a baby who married due to an unplanned pregnancy did one night 10 or more years ago? 

Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. Much may depend on her conduct since that time. If she has always been a loose cannon and has had problems with boundaries and inappropriate conduct, then he might and perhaps it may be in his best interests to do so. 

But if she has otherwise always been a decent person and a good wife and mother and he may be trying to dig up skeletons that may or may not exist then he may be doing more damage to the marriage today than what she did 10 years ago.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

OP has a complete pattern of caving in to her. I think he should just accept what she did, as he has done for years, and quit ruminating on this. If he’s satisfied with the relationship other than this one thing…….let it go.She won’t admit this even if he divorces her.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

Evinrude58 said:


> Predatory men?????????
> A bunch of single, horny, young guys enjoying a bunch of party girls is not “predatory men”.
> 
> this term is being abused in my opinion.
> ...


Yes, I agree that many have jumped to this conclusion with little, if any support. I will reread the repost to see if I missed something. But, isn't t it just as likely she was a more than willing participant, every bit as horny as these guys are alleged to have been. 
Did they play her with drinks? Perhaps she plied them for all we know. Did I miss the description of them providing the drinks?


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> If she had sex with them, it was of her own free will and consent. She was dancing and partying with a group of guys that turned her on and she had an opportunity to get with them and she took it.
> 
> If she did not have sex with them, then she didn't.
> 
> ...


I think it depends on how much this is eating at him. 

From reading all this stuff, it is apparent to me that folks tolerance for this varies a lot.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

O


QuestionAssumptions said:


> There can be degrees of fault, especially when it comes to determining if what happened is forgivable or not or how someone should be punished. This is recognized in many other areas of life, including in civil law settilements and in criminal laws having different "degrees" based on intent, recklessness, and the role of others in the crime.
> 
> If his wife set out from the beginning to get drunk and have sex that night, I think that's very different than if she naively wanted to party, enjoy some attention from other men, and thought she could control herself and the situation to stop well short of sex, and things went a lot further than she expected when she got too inebriated to think straight. Given the dress she wore and the statements about sitting on laps and being groped, it seems her boundaries were well beyond what they should have been and she shouldn't simply blame the alcohol for that. It's also possible that she intended to misbehave. But it's also possible that she was so intoxicated by the time she got into that car that she honestly can't clearly remember getting into it or what happened after that and that the men took advantage of her intoxication to have their way with her. That is different than intentionally getting into a car with them because she wanted to have sex with them.
> 
> ...


Of course the intent need not have been formed prior to going to the wedding. It could well have been formed at the gathering, after laying eyes on what was available. Essentially, we just do not know. Perhaps she was the predator, just cannot know, especially if we clear our biases where we have erroneously underestimated female sex driven capacity for deception. 
Sort of reminds me of the bias affecting the cases where consent to sex cannot be given if a woman is intoxicated. I have not seen this concept applied to situations where the man is intoxicated and the woman sober. Strange double standard. 
I used to think this is because it is assumed male arousal signifies consent. But, apparently, males can be aroused even when semi conscious. Female arousal, to the point of lubricating and even orgasm, is, apparently, possible in non consensual situations. So, why not use the same standard for men victims.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> Frat boys plying a young woman who is too young to legally drink full of liquor and then carting her off alone in a car is predatory behavior. They were involved in getting her drunk, not passive spectators. That they talk about her with utter disrespect in front of her husband shows that these are not good men. They are garbage. I don't know why people are defending garbage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do not necessarily think folks are defending the guys, just questioning your characterization re a couple of things. Were they plying her with drinks? He said they told him she was ordering them and they purchased them. Seems she was initiating the drinking. She was 20. 18 was the legal age for drinking for years in my state. It changed in the 80' s I believe. 
Most young people I knew were well acquainted with the effects of alcohol by 20. Throw in that the prefrontal cortex development in males legs behind females and these guys were pretty close to the same level of maturity ( maybe).
I saw no indication she was carted off into a vehicle. I will reread.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

oldshirt said:


> If she had sex with them, it was of her own free will and consent. She was dancing and partying with a group of guys that turned her on and she had an opportunity to get with them and she took it.


If she was drunk enough that she honestly can't remember getting into the car very well or what happened after that, then she was incapable of giving meaningful consent, which would also mean any sexual contact initiated by those men was sexual assault.



oldshirt said:


> Again, unless someone comes forward and admits to it, we will probably never know.


He won't know the details unless someone provides them, yes. But one can infer that something significant happened after she left in that car and whatever happened, it was bad enough to be a problem for a married woman to tell her husband about (their taunting to ask her what happened and her very hostile reaction to being asked for details).



oldshirt said:


> What's complicating things a bit here is back in the day people didn't like the OP and likely at least covered for her if not actually encouraged and supported her getting with these other dudes and were then OK rubbing little bits of the night into his face years later like it was some kind of nudge-nudge-wink-wink-yuck-yuck.


This is the piece that keeps standing out to me. The OP's wife wasn't some random guest at the wedding. She was the sister of the bride, maid-of-honor, daughter of the people hosting the party, and now sister-in-law of the groom. And the guys weren't random wedding guests. The men involved were good enough friends of the groom that he made them part of his wedding party and they were invited to the shower. So that does raise the questions of how much the bride and groom knew then and know now, was this some sort of set-up by her family, do they approve or disapprove of what happened or not care at all, and was the wife urged to party that way (since the OP believes it was out-of-character for her) to damage their marriage? The OP is worried about what happened to his wife but shouldn't the bride care about what happened to her sister at her wedding? Shouldn't her husband care what his friends, that he's still friends with, did to his wife's sister during his wedding? And if either of them don't care or approved, doesn't that make them pretty awful people?

This is why I think talking to the wife's sister (the bride whose wedding it was), if she has a decent relationship with his wife, cares about his wife's well-being, and likes the OP enough to talk to him about this could reveal a great deal about what happened at that wedding and why. And if the bride and/or groom are oblivious, then maybe they should start asking some questions about what happened at their wedding, too. Also, looking at their wedding pictures, at where eyes are turned, who is standing near whom, and expressions on faces could also reveal a great deal about what happened.



oldshirt said:


> The question for the OP here is how much time and energy and headspace he is willing to devote to trying to track down what a bunch of 20somethings did one night probably 10 or more years ago. How much is he willing to do to determine if she had a drunken party night with some dudes on the chance she may have had sex vs whether he is willing to further jeopardize their current relationship on the chance she did not get with anyone?


And this is a good point, too. But if he's seeing a therapist and has asked his wife to, this is clearly causing problems and it's having a hard time letting it go. That last encounter sounds like it was just too much for him to ignore. And maybe if his wife would give him even some high level information about what happened and go see a counselor with him, they could work through those problems. Can he offer her his honest intention to forgive her and reconcile, no matter what happened, in exchange for her cooperating with counseling?

@John910 You may want to read information about "reconciliation" after infidelity if you are assuming infidelity happened at this point. There is a lot of information out there about what can work and what makes things worse and reading that and sharing that information with your wife, if she also wants to stay with you and doesn't want you to keep suffering over this, might help you both get past this if you want to stay with her.


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## TinyTbone (6 mo ago)

So why has he not seen all the wedding pictures and shower pictures? Are her family protecting their little angel and do t want her back home nor the shame if this gets out?


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## TinyTbone (6 mo ago)

Also as much as this hurts today now. You should really consider a dna.test on your child. Because if she hid this and lied all these years, them it could be a probability that she'd had an affair early on. No disrespect intended to you


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

Megaforce said:


> Of course the intent need not have been formed prior to going to the wedding. It could well have been formed at the gathering, after laying eyes on what was available. Essentially, we just do not know. Perhaps she was the predator, just cannot know, especially if we clear our biases where we have erroneously underestimated female sex driven capacity for deception.


I've said a few times that it's entirely possible that the wife went their with the intent to cheat, which would help explain why she so readily tossed aside her promise not to drink or engage in close dancing, was sitting on someone's lap, and never complained about what happened. It would also explain why she also disappeared from contact after the wedding. I've also said that if he finds out the truth, he may find out he's not married to the woman he thinks she is.

There are plenty of infidelity cases where the husband is utterly stunned by the double lives their wives lead and probably most of them have a point where the betrayed partner wonders what happened to the spouse they thought they married. I read one story where the husband found out his wife had been sleeping with probably well over 100 men over years and the youngest child was not actually his, and he never had a clue. Another story not to long ago in this forum had a husband who found out from another friend that his wife was engaged in group sex parties with a "good friend" and his wife behind his back.

The OP should read other infidelity stories if he hasn't already to get a sense how they can play out. There are plenty, like his, where the cheating was revealed or only became an issue years later. I'm hoping for his sake, if he wants to reconcile with his wife and stay with her through this, that things are not that far gone with his wife, but they could be.



Megaforce said:


> Sort of reminds me of the bias affecting the cases where consent to sex cannot be given if a woman is intoxicated. I have not seen this concept applied to situations where the man is intoxicated and the woman sober. Strange double standard.


I think it's true either way. The whole point of getting a woman (or man) drunk is to lower their guard so they'll agree to things they wouldn't agree to while sober and, yes, sometimes people do deliberately do that to themselves on purpose. It's entirely possible that his wife was drinking was to loosen her inhibitions up so she could "party" more freely, which is how the one cousin seemed to interpret it. But I think it's silly to act as if alcohol can not and does not impair people's judgement, especially when they are as drunk as the OP's wife has been described as being.



Megaforce said:


> I used to think this is because it is assumed male arousal signifies consent. But, apparently, males can be aroused even when semi conscious. Female arousal, to the point of lubricating and even orgasm, is, apparently, possible in non consensual situations. So, why not use the same standard for men victims.


I think the reason why consent is treated differently with men (and this extends into adult women and minor boys) is the belief that even unwanted sex hurts men less than it hurts women and that real men can take it and suck it up. This is also why people joke about men being sexually assaulted in prison in a way they'd never joke about that happening to women. Men aren't expected to be hurt by sex like women are and are expected to suck it up and deal with it if they are hurt. On the flip side and to your point about women predators, this is also why men can find it difficult to imagine women seeking reckless or casual sex and not being hurt by it.

I've read that about 5% of women rape victims experience orgasms and it totally messes with their minds because it makes them wonder if they wanted it and feel responsible for what happened and that can be terrible for them. This is why I've mentioned a few times that what happened in that car might qualify as sexual assault and that may also be a reason why she doesn't want to think about it or talk about it.

She may have been pushed into doing more than she wanted to do. She may have said "no" only to be ignored. She may have enjoyed it despite that and be ashamed of herself for it. And that's why seeing before and after pictures from that wedding might suggest what she was thinking at the time, even if she won't talk about it. It's also a reason why the wife should probably be speaking to her own counselor, regardless of whether she regrets what happened or not. It's a messed up situation either way. It's also entirely possible his wife was looking to cheat after being apart from her husband for 4 months, which would explain why she was out of contact the second night after the wedding. Still lots of unknowns.


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## TinyTbone (6 mo ago)

By everything OP has said, I would Hazzard a guess that this marriage is over either way. Its eating him like cancer and he won't let it go. It'll force them to divorce. She come forth with whatever the truth is really is, she knows he'll probably split as well..so dined if you do, damned if you don't. This is really a no win situation for them.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

Megaforce said:


> I do not necessarily think folks are defending the guys, just questioning your characterization re a couple of things. Were they plying her with drinks? He said they told him she was ordering them and they purchased them. Seems she was initiating the drinking. She was 20. 18 was the legal age for drinking for years in my state. It changed in the 80' s I believe.


Yup, she ordered them, which means she tossed aside her promise not to drink fairly easily and that can't be blamed on the alcohol. But the OP said the cousin said, "and the guys about 2 to 3 years older were more than happy to get them for her." even though she was slurring her words. Yes, I'm making some assumptions here but we know more about those guys, including how they talked about groping the OP's wife to him and taunted him about asking how she got home. That's not the way nice guys act or talk. That's the way sleazeballs talk. So I think it's warranted to assume malicious motives on their part in this case.



Megaforce said:


> Most young people I knew were well acquainted with the effects of alcohol by 20. Throw in that the prefrontal cortex development in males legs behind females and these guys were pretty close to the same level of maturity ( maybe).
> I saw no indication she was carted off into a vehicle. I will reread.


I don't think that excuses the guys from taking advantage of the situation. Does it happen? Yes. Is it something good men do to women? No. Is it something friends of the groom should do to the sister of the bride at her wedding? Seems pretty sleazy to me. 

The relevant quotes about the car...

From his first message:

"Her male cousin said Diane left with some of them after the shower ended."

"One of them quickly mentioned yea I remember her she liked to party. One of them said you couldn’t take your hands off her ass. Another said yea well she was sitting on your lap. Before they were done they made it clear that she partied with them at the wedding and shower. One of the men said you should ask her how she got home that night."

"When I asked her how she got to her sisters that night to spend the night she first said her parents brought her. I told her I knew that wasn’t true and then she said it was her sister. I said that wasn’t true either she said she couldn’t remember. I said I thought you said you always knew what you were doing? I did but it wasn’t a big deal and it was a long time ago."

[She then starts accusing him of misbehavior that she's making up.]

"Any way we went back to did she leave the shower or the wedding with the guys? She then said that she still couldn’t remember anything like that but she could have."

"She vaguely remembers getting in the back seat of one of their cars and climbing over another girl to sit in the middle. But she assured me there were other girls in the back seat. I don’t believe her if it was another girl in the car she would have slid over so she could get in. Guys on the other hand always want to sit on the door side. She again got angry and said nothing happened."

"When I asked if they went right to her sister’s house she said she couldn’t remember but she was sure they did."

[She then makes up an accusation of him of being with another woman while she was pregnant.]

There is also the question of whether she went out with those guys after the wedding, too, which could suggest she was fine with or even welcomed what happened in the car during the previous event.

"When we got back to the subject at hand we talked about the wedding and she tried to tell me her parents gave her ride home. I told her that was a lie and explained that I called our house that night until 2:30 am and she never answered. She then tried to tell me she went to her parents house and spent the night. I knew that was a lie too."

"Then she said she couldn’t remember why she got home so late. My wife doesn’t have Alzheimer’s she remember less important events that happened before the wedding clearly."

So there are two nights critical to what the OP is worried about and those are the two nights she says she can't remember. One involved getting into a car with the guys while drunk. The other involves what she did after the wedding and who she was with. I've been focusing on leaving with the guys in the car because that's the thing the guys taunted the OP about ("One of the men said you should ask her how she got home that night.") and that's the thing she started getting the most defensive about when asked. It's also something the OP has gotten the most detail about. He should really try to see those shower and wedding pictures that he's never seen and if he's denied, that would be telling, too. He might see a woman in those pictures that looks exactly like his wife but he doesn't know and has never seen before.

And as I've already said, if she intended to have brief affairs during the wedding, that would explain a lot of the details pretty well, so its possible that she welcomed and wanted what happened. If that's what happened, I don't expect her to ever admit that unless she thinks admitting it will save her marriage and she wants that (via an offer of forgiveness and reconciliation if she comes clean and takes a polygraph) or she finally appreciates the pain she's causing her husband, feels true remorse, and comes clean.


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## TinyTbone (6 mo ago)

Gee maybe the OP should have a private " one on one" chat someplace with these pieces of trash college boy til he gets correct information. Guess there come a time to get medieval.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

TinyTbone said:


> By everything OP has said, I would Hazzard a guess that this marriage is over either way. Its eating him like cancer and he won't let it go. It'll force them to divorce. She come forth with whatever the truth is really is, she knows he'll probably split as well..so dined if you do, damned if you don't. This is really a no win situation for them.


The OP has said he loves his wife and I don't think he's looking for a reason to leave her. If he was, he could have left her already rather than talking to a counselor and asking his wife to do the same. And if she did cheat on him or he's assuming she did, then both he and she need to understand what doesn't and doesn't work for reconciliation after cheating and it typically includes full honest disclosure of what happened, sometimes down to detailed timelines and graphic descriptions of the various acts performed. In the absence of that, he can only imagine what happened and she can't apologize for something she won't admit to, so they can't get out of where they are. Part of what may be holding her back is shame over what she did, to which I'd point out that just about everyone else seems to know so maybe it's time to include her husband in on things.

The key to all of this is whether the OP can forgive her and stay with her even if she confirms she cheated, perhaps more than once (after the shower and after the wedding) and possibly with the intent to do so (meaning all of her promises to behave were lies meant to cover her intent), if she wants to stay with him and can show she has become a different person he can trust since then.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> The OP has said he loves his wife and I don't think he's looking for a reason to leave her. If he was, he could have left her already rather than talking to a counselor and asking his wife to do the same. And if she did cheat on him or he's assuming she did, then both he and she need to understand what doesn't and doesn't work for reconciliation after cheating and it typically includes full honest disclosure of what happened, sometimes down to detailed timelines and graphic descriptions of the various acts performed. In the absence of that, he can only imagine what happened and she can't apologize for something she won't admit to, so they can't get out of where they are. Part of what may be holding her back is shame over what she did, to which I'd point out that just about everyone else seems to know so maybe it's time to include her husband in on things.
> 
> The key to all of this is whether the OP can forgive her and stay with her even if she confirms she cheated, perhaps more than once (after the shower and after the wedding) and possibly with the intent to do so (meaning all of her promises to behave were lies meant to cover her intent), if she wants to stay with him and can show she has become a different person he can trust since then.


Too many assumptions , Questiosassumed. Many possible scenarios. 
A small point on premeditation: it need not have occurred prior to going to the function. Premeditation, at least in the jurisdiction where I practiced, can occur in close temporal proximity to the commission of the act. But, this is a digression. 
We do know that both young men and young women like sex. There is no hard evidence of coercion or lack of consent or being forced into a vehicle. There is no evidence that the young men coerced her to drink.
Perhaps they, themselves , were too drunk to give consent. We just do not know.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

Megaforce said:


> Too many assumptions , Questiosassumed. Many possible scenarios.
> A small point on premeditation: it need not have occurred prior to going to the function. Premeditation, at least in the jurisdiction where I practiced, can occur in close temporal proximity to the commission of the act. But, this is a digression.
> We do know that both young men and young women like sex. There is no hard evidence of coercion or lack of consent or being forced into a vehicle. There is no evidence that the young men coerced her to drink.
> Perhaps they, themselves , were too drunk to give consent. We just do not know.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

Problem in trying to make an assessment about intent, her state of mind, her level of intoxication etc.is that , in large part, the analysis relies on information from the wife, who we know lies.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> If she was drunk enough that she honestly can't remember getting into the car very well or what happened after that, then she was incapable of giving meaningful consent, which would also mean any sexual contact initiated by those men was sexual assault.


Every WS that has ever walked the earth says they “can’t remember” the details and specifics of the affair. 

We also need to keep in mind this was a family event with her siblings and parents and grandparents and aunts and uncles and even her great Aunt Genevieve from Idaho were there. 

And as you yourself noted, these guys were not randos at the bar but were good friends of her BIL and sister.

If she was black out drunk to where consent would be a legitimate issue and these guys were being sexual predators, Great Aunt Genevieve would have been dragging them out by their ears. 

I’m not saying she did or did not have sex with anyone that night and we may never know the full truth. 

But what I am saying is IF she did hook up, she did so knowingly and willingly and if her own free will.


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

I`ve been married to my now second wife for 33 years, we were in our early 30s at the time.
My wife told me I was her first boyfriend and the only man she`d ever slept with.
Early this year I discovered some photos of her wearing an engagement ring and promise ring taken a little while before we met.
I actually made a thread about this on here.
I called her out and of course she denied everything. She told me several BS versions of who gave her the rings and what happened to them, none of what she said made sense.
I`ve discovered other clues that my wife is lying. She is still in contact with some of her female friends from back in that time and they are not saying anything.
The difference between the OP and I is that in my case it happened before my wife and I met and the OP`s story happened while married.
What it amounts to is, it means our wives lie and the connection and trust is somewhat lost.
I have been married for a long time there is nothing I can do but let it go because I doubt I`ll never know the truth.
As regards the OP he is in a similar situation whereas he has to let it go because it is doubtful he`ll ever discover the truth either, otherwise if he clings on to this it will drive him insane.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> There can be degrees of fault, especially when it comes to determining if what happened is forgivable or not or how someone should be punished. This is recognized in many other areas of life, including in civil law settilements and in criminal laws having different "degrees" based on intent, recklessness, and the role of others in the crime.
> 
> If his wife set out from the beginning to get drunk and have sex that night, I think that's very different than if she naively wanted to party, enjoy some attention from other men, and thought she could control herself and the situation to stop well short of sex, and things went a lot further than she expected when she got too inebriated to think straight. Given the dress she wore and the statements about sitting on laps and being groped, it seems her boundaries were well beyond what they should have been and she shouldn't simply blame the alcohol for that. It's also possible that she intended to misbehave. But it's also possible that she was so intoxicated by the time she got into that car that she honestly can't clearly remember getting into it or what happened after that and that the men took advantage of her intoxication to have their way with her. That is different than intentionally getting into a car with them because she wanted to have sex with them.
> 
> ...


There are no degrees of fault.

His wife cheated on him. She is the ONLY one that is responsible for her cheating. The guys she cheated with owed no loyalty to him, she is the only one who did.

She cheated. 100% her fault.

Anything else is just making excuses for her choices.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Evinrude58 said:


> OP has a complete pattern of caving in to her. I think he should just accept what she did, as he has done for years, and quit ruminating on this. If he’s satisfied with the relationship other than this one thing…….let it go.She won’t admit this even if he divorces her.


I agree with one exception. He should sit down with her and set boundaries with her on her future honesty to him and on the way she behaves around other men. He should demand moving forward that she commit to the marriage and to honesty with him.


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## ShatteredKat (Mar 23, 2016)

I wonder what OP wanted by posting on TAM? 

I have a notion that this isn't eliciting the response he wanted to read:

_"Finally my question:
After hearing my story of these events if you were me would you believe her when she say’s nothing at all happened?"_


A few weeks before the wedding I called on Saturday until late at night and she never answered the phone. I reached her on Sunday and asked where she was and she said she forgot to tell me but she had gone with her parents out of town to attend her sister’s shower.

The weekend before the wedding she told me not to worry, she would not do any drinking or slow dance with any of these single guys (accept for the Grand March). She also promised she would come home early. I need to add the wedding unlike the shower was in our home t

A week later I called home the night of the wedding and got no answer, so I called again multiple times throughout the night until 2:30 am and she never answered. I didn’t call again until late in the afternoon the next day.

She answered the phone I asked how things went and did she keep her promise to me, she said yes she only danced the grand march, only had one glass of champagne.

My response was you stood up with my wife at xxxx’s wedding I heard it was a good time. She said the wedding was a blast but the shower was even wilder.

Your wife & I got really buzzed, it was a great time, we were getting free drinks, the band was cool, and the guys we would be standing up with were all there, good looking single college grads to slow dance with. I said my wife shouldn’t have been drinking; she wasn’t old enough to buy alcohol. xxxx laughed and said she was ordering slow screws (slo gin & orange juice) and the guys about 2 to 3 years older were more than happy to get them for her. She had enough; she was even slurring her words and ready to party.

Before I could ask anymore we were interrupted by someone else. On the way home I asked my wife about the shower and at first she tried to down play it until I told her what xxxx had said. Then she tried to say she told me about how it was for the Bride and Groom and her parents were there. Nothing happened she said it was just a shower and got angry and said she didn’t want to talk about it.

I dropped it and didn’t bring it up again until a few years later it came up again. Another family event this time it was her cousin xxxx and xxxx’s brother that brought it up. She again spoke about the wedding and shower saying her and Diane got buzzed and had a great time dancing and drinking with the guys. Her male cousin said Diane left with some of them after the shower ended.

I was introduced to them at the bar by the groom’s brother and he said this is xxxxx’s Husband you remember her; she was the hot blonde we stood up with at the wedding.
One of them quickly mentioned yea I remember her she liked to party. One of them said you couldn’t take your hands off her ass. Another said yea well she was sitting on your lap. Before they were done they made it clear that she partied with them at the wedding and shower. One of the men said you should ask her how she got home that night.

When I told her it was her cousins and the men she stood up with she admitted drinking too much at the shower but said she always knew what she was doing. She also admitted she had slow danced and partied with these guys.

When I asked her about the details she said she couldn’t remember. She doubted she let anyone put their hands on her butt or sat on anyone’s lap but couldn’t be sure.

Then she started to deflect toward me. She started accusing me of going out with my army buddies and dancing and partying with single girls while I was on active duty. I of course hadn’t there were no single girls.

She vaguely remembers getting in the back seat of one of their cars and climbing over another girl to sit in the middle. But she assured me there were other girls in the back seat. I don’t believe her if it was another girl in the car she would have slid over so she could get in. Guys on the other hand always want to sit on the door side. She again got angry and said nothing happened.

When I asked if they went right to her sister’s house she said she couldn’t remember but she was sure they did. She deflected again and accused me of being with a girl we knew when she was pregnant.

When we got back to the subject at hand we talked about the wedding and she tried to tell me her parents gave her ride home. I told her that was a lie and explained that I called our house that night until 2:30 am and she never answered. She then tried to tell me she went to her parents house and spent the night. I knew that was a lie too.

Then she said she couldn’t remember why she got home so late. My wife doesn’t have Alzheimer’s she remember less important events that happened before the wedding clearly.


The lies about these 2 events seem never ending. She still insists that nothing at all sexual happened between her and any of these 4 college guys. She also threatened that if I didn’t drop this we would end up divorced.

Sun Mars:
I do not think she had sex with any of them, but I cannot be sure.
If she had, somebody would have told you, by now.
That would be a hard secret to keep, forever.

_I don't agree with this - - some people blabber anything/everything - others? Not so much._

QuestionAssumptions:
At the very least, she deliberately lied to you about her behavior that weekend and did things she knew you wouldn't have wanted her to do. She's the one who created your distrust in her by lying to you about what she did that night and that's on her to fix it.


_Asking her to not be Maid of Honor? Unreasonable! Asking for the couple to move their wedding date because he is not available? Unreasonable!

Did she or didn't she - can't tell from the posters provided info.
So question is OP - Do you like your Merde Panini with mustard, onions, and relish? Or maybe just Olive Oil?_

Wife is or was acting like a spoiled 12 year old caught with some kind of contraband and trying to disown how it got into her bedroom.


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## TinyTbone (6 mo ago)

Ok, so coming here isn't gonna give you a hill of beans real help. You either talk this out and feel she's told the truth and move on, don't feel it's the truth and bury it and enjoy yours, your wife and your kids lives together or can't live with and part ways. Nothing's gonna change talking to us, it will happen between you and your wife.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Rubix Cubed said:


> @QuestionAssumptions has been dead on target on this. The OP's fears were realized even after doing everything he could to prevent that from happening.
> 
> If your "Jill" is the basis of your skewed reality then I'm not sure what that says about your wife and your boundaries. When a Husband (Op) can see the writing on the wall and tries to protect his marriage by creating boundaries and the wife (OP's) smashes right through those boundaries and then lies about it, doing EXACTLY what the OP was concerned about, and an apologist like yourself attributes that to resentment caused by said boundaries then you are victim blaming and giving the wife a pass for acting like a skank. If a wife commits infidelity because she is resentful of a husband trying to protect his marriage then she shouldn't be a wife any longer ... period.
> 
> ...


No my point is either, one him going to the level of suggesting she not be part of her sisters wedding tells me he knew she was a skank from the start and shouldn't have married her or this situation coming up should have made him realize he didn't trust her and he should have ended it, or two he didn't have reason to distrust her at all and her feelings for him were completely altered by the extreme suggestion of missing her sisters wedding. I have no problem setting reasonable boundaries and proactively protecting your marriage. If you need to go to the extent of telling your wife to skip her sisters wedding, something is very wrong. If he knew he married a skank, the bigger question is why he did that. If a person will cheat when they're drunk, they'll cheat sober also, it's either in you or not IMO. 

My wife and my boundaries are don't cheat, that is all we really need, works pretty well for us. All the no doing business lunches etc with the opposite sex is completely unrealistic and impossible functionally in our careers. I have no issues with people who have those boundaries, just don't feel the need for that ourselves and it wouldn't work for us from a purely practical point. 

The anecdote of Jill and Joey is to point out you have to discuss and set these boundaries before marriage if you don't you risk serious conflict later on. If Joey had laid out these boundaries prior to marriage maybe they wouldn't have got married and never would have had to go through the divorce.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

I would imagine not attending one's s sibling' s marriage would cause a lot of conflict and upset. Who does not attend a sibling' s wedding?


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

gameopoly5 said:


> As regards the OP he is in a similar situation whereas he has to let it go because it is doubtful he`ll ever discover the truth either, otherwise *if he clings on to this it will drive him insane.*


And if he keeps digging she may teach him a lesson.in other ways. As in the bedroom temperature will drop below freezing,


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

happyhusband0005 said:


> If Joey had laid out these boundaries prior to marriage maybe they wouldn't have got married and never would have had to go through the divorce.


 So basically it's the OM's fault for not using his crystal ball to see what his wife would become and then use it again to get the truth about all the lies she told about the wedding and shower. But it's not the wife's fault for lying and being a skeeze.
That's a whole new level of victim blaming ... Wow!


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Rubix Cubed said:


> So basically it's the OM's fault for not using his crystal ball to see what his wife would become and then use it again to get the truth about all the lies she told about the wedding and shower. But it's not the wife's fault for lying and being a skeeze.
> That's a whole new level of victim blaming ... Wow!


No thats not what I said. If he had enough reason to not trust his wife to the point of asking her to not go to her sisters wedding (which you have to agree would be a major ask for anyone) he never should have married her. And if he had no reason to not trust her then asking her to not go to his sisters wedding because there would be drunk single guys there (like pretty much every wedding of young people ever in the history of marriage), I can surely see that being a deal breaker for a women as far as her feeling towards him. Does that make her cheating (if that happened) his fault, no it's her fault like I said at the beginning of this.If she didn't cheat but lied about drinking at the wedding shower and wedding then his over the top request very well might be her reason for lying. Doesn't make the lying right but without that request maybe she wouldn't have.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

Back to the original question: looks like a consensus: lying.


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## Jimi007 (5 mo ago)

Well. Some people really change after enough booze...And maybe the OP knew that...


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## John910 (28 d ago)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> It may be too late to let this go after that last encounter, where the comments from those men who were personally involved and know what happened and his wife's poor attempts at lying her way out of it removed the uncertainty he'd previously had that let him continue to let himself believe that maybe nothing happened and he could trust her. That he's talked to a therapist and asked her to suggest that this is hurting him more deeply emotionally than his fact-oriented messages suggest.
> 
> That said, this is also a reasonable option for @John910 if he can do it and rug sweep it away in his mind. It sounds like he was largely able to forget about this incident for years at a time but her cousins and those men kept bringing up details that only opened the wound again. Will time make this problem fade again in his mind or has it reached the point where he can no longer put it out of his mind?
> 
> ...


I will answer your last question first. My therapist believes that my wife has toxic shame regarding these events. She believes that my wife knows what she did was hurtful to us. She would rather lie than face the shame of her actions during the 2 and possibly 3 events that happened. Because I don't know what those actions were or even if they were all willfully done neither of us has gotten over this. The Therapist also believes these events are a terrible trauma for me. I will not go into here about what was happening to me on active duty at that time. I will only say that there was a war going on. It was maybe the worst time in my life and something I will never forget. The therapist said my wife at home made me feel that I mattered and that she would always be there for me. The night my wife went to the wedding and said she would be home early, I called our house for hours hoping she would pickup. She didn't and I felt betrayed by the 1 person that mattered and made me feel safe. I lost the person I needed most and it traumatized me. Every time something triggers this I go back to the night of the wedding and its like it just happened yesterday. In addition the events of the shower I didn't know about feel like gas is being poured on the fire. On the family side of this her immediate family has never spoken of her sisters wedding or shower in front of me. When I say immediate family that is her sister, mother, father or brother. Also the men that stood up were not friends of my wives family they were Frat brothers of the groom. The divorce threat was either her way of stopping me from digging further or possibly saying if you knew everything we will end up divorced. Someone in earlier post said I should ask to see the pictures and videos from the wedding. She doesn't want me to do that, she says that it would look stupid if I asked her sister or her cousin Roger to see the pictures from the wedding or shower. I don't think they would show me the pictures anyway. I have a feeling they know what happened but would never tell me to protect her. When I tried to argue saying it would make me feel better if I had some better idea of what was happening on those nights. She got angry and said you just want to see if one of the guys has their hands to close to my butt and stormed off. Someone also asks what would I do if I did know and whats the point. Well at this point I can't forgive her for anything that happened at those events because she won't admit to anything happening.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

John910 said:


> When I tried to argue saying it would make me feel better if I had some better idea of what was happening on those nights. *She got angry and said you just want to see if one of the guys has their hands to close to my butt and stormed off.*


With her attitude towards this, you really don't have much to work with here and with what is bolded I'd say you are safe to assume the worse and should respond accordingly.
Personally, there is no way I could live with this utter disrespect it's worse than a 'Dear John' letter would have been. Do yourself a favor and get away from this toxic woman and her toxic family.

p.s. Thank You for your service.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

John910 said:


> Every time something triggers this I go back to the night of the wedding and its like it just happened yesterday. In addition the events of the shower I didn't know about feel like gas is being poured on the fire. On the family side of this her immediate family has never spoken of her sisters wedding or shower in front of me. When I say immediate family that is her sister, mother, father or brother. Also the men that stood up were not friends of my wives family they were Frat brothers of the groom. The divorce threat was either her way of stopping me from digging further or possibly saying if you knew everything we will end up divorced. Someone in earlier post said I should ask to see the pictures and videos from the wedding. She doesn't want me to do that, she says that it would look stupid if I asked her sister or her cousin Roger to see the pictures from the wedding or shower. I don't think they would show me the pictures anyway. I have a feeling they know what happened but would never tell me to protect her. When I tried to argue saying it would make me feel better if I had some better idea of what was happening on those nights. She got angry and said you just want to see if one of the guys has their hands to close to my butt and stormed off. Someone also asks what would I do if I did know and whats the point. Well at this point I can't forgive her for anything that happened at those events because she won't admit to anything happening.


I'd also like to thank you for your service. And it's sadly all to common for people in the military to be cheated on by their spouses while they're deployed.

Does she understand that this is torturing you and she's a huge source of pain and suffering for you? That's why I asked you to read the article about the difference between regret and remorse. Right now, it sounds like she has regret for what she's done and she's protecting herself. She needs remorse for what she's done and continues to do for you to turn her focus toward you so she can prioritize helping you heal over what she did to you, even if it wrecks your marriage. This isn't simply something she did to embarrass herself. It's something she did to hurt you deeply. Have you clearly told her that? Have you expressed your emotions to her? Have you cried in front of her? What often seems to shock cheating people into remorse is seeing and understanding just how deeply they wrecked a person that they love.

If she won't understand that, you need to know more to move forward, and you are willing to risk divorce (or think it might be inevitable), then how far are you willing to go to get the truth? If you keep backing down and being the nice guy, then you'll never get the truth.

First, your wife may be the hardest person who knows what happened to get the truth from. You really need to reconsider going around her back and trying to explain what's going on with you and your marriage to her sister and brother-in-law without her there and explain why you need to know what happened so you can either forgive her or know what you're divorcing her over. Events surrounding their wedding is the focal point of this problem. Tell them that you need to see the pictures and video and have them tell you what they already saw and know.

Stop assuming that "No" will be the answer and, if it is, don't easily take "No" for an answer. Push hard if you really want the truth. No, it won't be pleasant no matter what happens.

You need to ask if her brother-in-law's frat brothers told him what happened between them, Tell him and her sister about what they said about her behavior, groping her, and asking you to ask her how she got home. If her brother-in-law acts dumb, then ask him why you think they'd say and ask that if nothing happened? There is no innocent explanation for it. This isn't just between you and your wife but those men, too. They're mocking you and belittling your wife and you want to know why. Her brother-in-law is the person who invited them to the wedding. You can tell him that you hold him and her sister at least partially responsible for what happened. Or are they so cold that they really do they not care if you wife was passed around by her brother-in-laws invited friends and frat brothers like a cheap w****?

If her sister tells you or implies that she's trying to protect or defend your wife, you can ask her why she didn't protect or defend your wife and your marriage at her wedding and why did her husband invite the men who plied your married wife with drinks she couldn't buy herself, groped her, and drove off alone with our wife and taunted you to ask what happened. How did that protect or defend your wife when it really mattered? You need to hold them accountable. Put blame on them. Insist that they help make this right. Heck, tell them what your counselor speculated about your wife, that what she did at their wedding is causing your wife toxic shame they lying and running away from it isn't helping her heal, either. Don't be Mr. Nice Guy.

If they still won't help you, then tell them that if they can't even show you the shower and wedding pictures, can't even give you an overview of what happened, and your wife doesn't want you to see them or talk about it, then you can only assume the worst and describe that to them -- that she deliberately planned to and acted like a total sl*t during the shower and wedding party which the pictures must show, that she eagerly lead the men on and let them grope her with impunity, that she wanted to be treated like a cheap w**** by them, and that she willingly then let them cart her off in car after the shower for some drunken group sex to pass her around between her now brother-in-law's frat brothers and then she went for a second round after the wedding, all while you desperately needed her to be there for you, hoped she was keeping her promises to you, and worried about her but couldn't do anything about it. Tell them that's exactly why her brother-in-law's good friends must have been talking about her like a cheap piece of meat that they played with and discarded. See how they react? Do they look at you like you're crazy or like you are telling them something they already know? Do they try to defend her or deny it?

If your wife's sister and brother-in-law still don't react to that and still don't tell you anything or show you any pictures to dispute those assumptions or object with more details, then it may very well have been that terrible. And if none of her family has ever shown you pictures of a wedding your wife was the maid-of-honor at or talked about it much with you, then they probably all know at least something about what happened and it can't have been a brief or minor indiscretion.

Note that if your wife normally wore a wedding ring at the time, one of the things they might be trying to hide form you is if she wasn't wearing it during those wedding events, which would suggest intent to cheat on you. If you do see the pictures, try to see if she's wearing her wedding ring or not.

Talking to her sister and brother-in-law will likely quickly get back to your wife unless they get what you are doing. It will also let her know that talking about what he did will bring her shame to the attention of more people and her silence and lies aren't helping to bury it. But it could also trigger anger and her asking for a divorce. The closer you get to what she's defending, the harder she's going to defend it.

If talking to her sister and brother-in-law doesn't work, you could still try finding and asking the frat brothers who taunted you to be honest with you. That could be a challenge, since it seems like they enjoy playing with you and hurting you and might decide to torture you some more, instead of telling you the truth. Tell them that you asked your wife like they suggested, but she's too ashamed of herself to tell you what happened when you asked her so why don't they come clean to you? Depending on how long ago this was (if it's after cell phone cameras became common), they could very well have pictures or movies of what happened, too, so be prepared for that if they do tell you. But if they're the guys your wife was with, they're the only people other than your wife who knows what really happened between them and they're the only other way you'll get an eyewitness account of everything if you wife won't tell you.

If that still doesn't get you the answers you want and you are willing to go even further, you need to really confront your wife with what you have to assume happened because her lies and silence have left such a large hole in the story that you can only assume the worst based on how everyone talks and behaves around the topic. If she gets defensive again and says you are hurting her feelings and tries to push you to back down, you need to not let her do that and tell her that her long history of lies about what happened starting before the wedding when she promised you she wouldn't drink, her hostile reaction when you raise the subject, and her refusal to tell you honestly what happened is forcing you to fill in the blanks yourself. She's behaving exactly like a guilty person would (click here).

If she acts indignant that you believe she cheated on her and don't trust her, confront her and tell her that it's her lies to you that started before the shower and wedding, her absences when you called worried about her and needed her to be there, her behavior that she's already admitted crossed lines she promised not to cross and once said she didn't, her cousins' statements, and the frat brothers' demonstrated poor character and taunting about her leaving with them alone in their car, and her willingness to offer divorce over telling you the truth that force you believe something truly vile and terrible must have happened and, based on everyone's reactions to your questions, you can only assume the worst.

It's reached a point where you can't believe her and there is know innocent explanation for what you do know. Tell her exactly, without holding back, what you think she did and those guys did with her those nights in detail and without being nice about it. See how she reacts. Make her realize that her lies aren't protecting anything at this point because you know enough, that you are already disappointed at her behavior, and are crushed that she'd do that to you. Tell her that everyone else already seems to know exactly what she did, too. And be prepared if that causes her to snap on you or break down.

She may also threaten divorce again. If she does, ask her if her lies mean so much to her that she'd sacrifice your marriage to keep telling them? Ask her if what she did was so terrible that she's willing to end your marriage rather than talk about it.

Any of that may trigger her to file for a divorce if she'd rather walk away and leave you than face what she did, so you need to be willing to risk that if you push her hard. But if she really loves you and doesn't want to lose you, and thinks telling you the truth might make things better or at least give her a chance, then pushing things that far may force her to consider talking to you about it and going to therapy. But it also may lead to a divorce you can't stop. Are you willing to go there?

Again, consider if you can offer her an attempt at forgiveness at the start if she'll honestly tell you everything. Offer to let a therapist manage the disclosure for both of you so she's not facing you alone. Tell her that you'd be gone already if you didn't still have feelings for her. If any of that makes her agree to tell you what happened, make sure that you she understands that that you want the whole truth, no matter how much it hurts you or her, if that's what you really want. But also bear in mind that a lot of people love and want to forgive their wayward spouse but find out that they just can forgive and forget, even though they want to.

If they continue to stonewall your attempts to find out the truth, you should probably consider paternity tests for your children given your wife's insane defensiveness about what she's done in the past. Maybe there are even much deeper reasons for her shame than just that wedding period. There are home kits you should be able to do yourself. If she did deliberately go wild during that wedding and did willingly have sex with one or more men, you can't really be certain that there aren't other things she's been hiding from you, including during the time before you were married and your first child was conceived.

You've said that you were the first person your wife went all the way with and that she's not a party girl or heavy drinker, but if that's really true, would the behavior it increasingly looks like she engaged in at that wedding make sense? Or would it make more sense that you've been mistaken about who she was when you married her? There are plenty of infidelity stories out there where the father is stunned to learn that one or more of his children aren't biologically his, even 50 years afterward courtesy of cheap commercial DNA testing kits.

You have one other nuclear option to go after her with. If you and your wife got a divorce, do you think you would at some point tell your children exactly why you divorced? Would you want them to blame her and not you and have them understood what really happened or would you try to protect their mother and hide what she did from them, keep her lies going to protect her, and not tell them? If you would tell them and blame her, and there are plenty of reasons why you might not so think about it carefully, then you could tell her now that you would tell your children why it happened if you two divorce. That means that if your marriage ends in divorce because her refusal to help work thought this problem or because she choose to divorce you instead of telling the truth, that her shame will be revealed to her children, too. You don't necessarily need to demand the truth with this -- simply that she attend therapy to try to prevent the divorce.

It's possible that she'll fear her children finding out about her shame more than she fears facing what she did herself or facing you with what she did. Of course that could also cause her to snap badly and if you really did tell your children what's going on, it might hurt them in unpredictable ways, too, so think carefully before throwing that nuclear bomb and the fallout from that could hit a lot more than just you or her.

Finally, you mentioned her being a good mother and having sons and that sounds like a reason why you don't want your marriage to end. At some point, those boys will be old enough to move out and move on and then it will only be the two of you left alone with each other. Once you are done needing her to be a good mother to your children, will there be enough good will between the two of you to keep your marriage going or will these problems quickly create contempt between you? If divorce seems inevitable, it may be better to do it sooner rather than later when you are both older.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

Rus47 said:


> And if he keeps digging she may teach him a lesson.in other ways. As in the bedroom temperature will drop below freezing,


If that is her reaction, no great loss.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

Sounds like your wife lacks empathy. I doubt anyone in her family is going to tell you what happened. Kind of doubt the frat boys will, as well. They seem like real aholes.
You are really in no worse position than many of us here who have been betrayed as regards ever getting the truth. 29 years after discovering evidence of my first XW's cheating, she has never given me the truth. Same with my second wife despite her knowing my PI busted her. They just clam up. I never bring it up, as it is futile. We have kids so we interact. The topic of cheating is off li it's to them.
People who cheat are different than those who don't . They are way more comfortable with lying and sticking to their stories than normal people. They like to,bury things and pretend they never happened.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

John910 said:


> She got angry and said you just want to see if one of the guys has their hands to close to my butt and stormed off.


So you are off fighting for your life thousands of miles from home, and she is doing what she wants. Why in h3ll didn't she just send you a "Dear John" letter? Because she wanted the allotment? And even now, she doesn't care about your feelings or help you heal from those traumatic times. Her family is helping her deceive you. So you can rest assured at least one of those guys ( and likely all of them and at the very least) had their hands all over her. That is why she is angry, because you resurrect the truth in her head. She wants to see herself as innocent but knows she is far from it.

Have you ever told her that since she won't tell you, you just have to assume the absolute worst scenario imagineable, that she had sex with every man in that car. Because that is what is rattling around in your head. I am very sorry but by her actions over these years she has shown she isn't a safe or empathetic partner. She has and would lie to you anytime it served her purposes. She has proven that time after time. You have to decide what to do with that fact. Her whole family both inlaws and outlaws and all of their friends are trash.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

Megaforce said:


> Sounds like your wife lacks empathy. I doubt anyone in her family is going to tell you what happened. Kind of doubt the frat boys will, as well. They seem like real aholes.


If the therapist is correct about the motive behind her avoiding the subject then it's possible she has empathy but can't face what she did and can't undo it. There was a picture on Reddit no long ago of a broken plate. The caption read, "Drop a plate on the floor and break it. Now apologize to the plate. Did it fix the plate?" That's what cheaters do to their relationships and marriages and there is no way to put things back the way they were. To get to her, the OP needs to convince her that he already knows the plate is broken but needs her to be honest to know if he can live with that or not. Pretending it isn't broken isn't working anymore. It's possible the therapist is wrong and she's simply a manipulative narcissist and if the OP keeps digging, he should be prepared to find out that she's not the woman he thought she was at all as a possibility. But wouldn't that be the whole point of digging to get the truth out?

As for the others, I assume the frat boys are Grade A aholes if not psychopaths and his wife's brother-in-law, the guy who invited them to into the wedding party, could likely be one, too (birds of a feather flocking together). His wife (the OP's wife's sister) may also be a person who encouraged his wife to party it up and ignore her wedding vows while her husband is away, along with other family members. Women seem to love to mess each other up like that, especially when they are jealous about something (maybe because her younger sister married and had a child first -- is the OP's wife more attractive?). But, yes, her entire family and their friends all sound like pretty awful people based on what he's said. None sound like friends of their marriage.

But even if that's true, there are ways to get aholes to spill the truth by challenging their egos. It's also possible that his wife's sister doesn't know the full extent of what happened or isn't on the same page as her husband whose friends were involved in treating his wife like a plaything. She might be offended that they messed with her sister during her wedding and are disrespecting her now, if only because it shows disrespect for her, an angle that could be brought up. Any disagreements between them could be used to drive a wedge between them as a tool get the truth out. If they didn't care about messing with the OP's marriage, maybe he shouldn't worry about messing with their marriage.

@John910 comes off as a straight shooter and a fairly nice guy who doesn't want to push people around, so it's possible he doesn't have it in him to pull off the deception, manipulation, bravado, and acting that might be needed to get them to tell him more, but here is how it could be done in a bit more detail...

When facing his wife's sister and brother-in-law, the goal is to see if he can make either of them angry at what her husband's friends said about her sister or create conflict between them over what happened. They were really disrespecting her. Do either of them care that they're talking about her like that? Their reactions could be very telling even if they say nothing. But that conversation may shock her sister into asking her husband or others to tell her more details about wht happened or or to confront her sister over it. She may think it only involved some touching and dancing and not going off alone with those guys in a car or what their taunts about asking how she got home imply. And if the husband isn't fully aware of what happened (unlikely) and their trash talking of the wife, that might make him angry with his friends.

It's also possible that he can tell the sister what the therapist said about his wife, that she's suffering from shame and that her being in denial rather than dealing with it isn't good for her. This would be an appeal to sisterly empathy, if his wife's sister has any. If she doesn't have any concern about that or is in some sort of denial herself, it won't work but it may be worth a try, too.

It's also possible that the sister, cousins, or even the brother-in-law encouraged or even helped plan his wife's bad behavior and the sister and/or the brother-in-law knew exactly what his friends were up to and didn't care or even helped it happen. At that point, empathy won't work and the goal shifts to challenging their egos and putting them down as the garbage that would make them. Tell them that they're trash who thew a member of their own family to the wolves at their own wedding. Tell them that they don't have the guts to come clean. This might get them to reveal what happened and/or how much his wife was responsible for and planned what happened.

Even then, they could still say nothing. But he won't know until he tries and really pushes for answers from everyone he asks. They're not just going to tell him out of the goodness of their hearts. But even if they don't talk or show him the pictures and videos, having is wife find out that he's talking to other relatives about it could make it clear that her stonewalling the truth isn't containing the story or her shame. It's just making it a bigger issue and involving more people.

As for asking them about seeing the pictures and video, whether they show him or not will itself be revealing, and he can try to goad them into showing them to him by saying that if they can't show him at all, what they show of his wife must be really, really terrible and he should be assuming the worst. If they're fine with him thinking that, then it's probably true. I suspect it includes physical contact, looking at other guys, and possibly not wearing her wedding ring. Maybe more. And as a warning here, if there is a lot of bad stuff to see, seeing what he's only imagined may be very upsetting.

If they ask him why he doesn't trust his wife, he can tell them that she's already shown she's lied and changed her story about drinking, what others have told him indicate she's lying, and her reluctance to talk about any of it in detail or let her see any pictures of the wedding guarantees that she's hiding something. He's wanted to trust her since the beginning but she's given him every reason not to. And there is no reason for the frat guys to taunt him about asking his wife how she got home from the shower and her getting caught lying and refusing to give more detail if nothing happened after she left with them. There is no room left for blind trust. If he can't convince his wife she can't keep hiding forever, he might be able to convince her sister and brother-in-law that it's best to just tell him so the can move on. He needs to make it clear that the lack of truth is a cancer on his marriage that's going to destroy it.

A more deceptive and manipulative approach would be to tell them that he already has a pretty good idea of what went down at the party, is trying to determine whether it was consensual or sexual assault, and wants to know if her brother-in-law is man enough to tell him what his invited guests did to his wife. That would be implying he's looking to involve law enforcement or seek revenge if he believes she was sexually assaulted (which might get them to talk if she wasn't to save the frat guys) and it would be challenging the brother-in-law's courage to face him and come clean, much like the frat boys challenged the OP to confront his wife about how she got home that night. It's a dare, and if he has an ego, he might respond to it.

The frat boys will be harder to manipulate and get them to talk. It's clear that they have no respect for the AP or his wife. If they're narcissists, psychopaths, or sociopaths, the best way to goad them into talking would be to challenge their egos. "You probably didn't have the guts to f*** her and are just messing with me." "There is now way she'd do anything with garbage like you." Encourage them to brag about what they did. There is a fair amount of danger there. They could lie to say the most hurtful things possible. They could say things that provoke a physical altercation. And they might have pictures that are even more damning and upsetting than the wedding pictures might be. If such pictures exist, they could also already be out on porn sites. But you can get aholes to talk about all that if it's played right.

There was a story I read about police questioning a killer who they suspected killed many other people, too. At first, they tried to appeal to his empathy for the victims and their families to get him to talk, but he didn't have any empathy so it didn't work. So, next, they started putting him down. "You're a nobody. Compared to other serial killers, you're nothing." That did the trick and he readily bragged about many other people he'd killed with a lot of detail about where the bodies were, etc. I also read a cheating story where the betrayed husband called the home of her affair partner and his wife and when he got on the phone, he wasted no time bragging about all the stuff he'd done to the guy's wife, in front of his own wife standing next to him, and how much better he was than the betrayed husband. You put them down and encourage them to brag or challenge you. That's how you manipulate them. But it requires keeping your cool and acting aloof and superior. You need to act a lot like a ahole that's challenging them yourself.

Another option may be to go the VAR (Voice Activated Recorder) route. The approach there would be to place VARs in her car and other places in the home where she's likely to be when she makes a call or talks to someone in person, then talk to her sister and see if they talk about what happened. The goal would be to get one of them to call the other and see if that catches a conversation between them where they discuss more details about what happened in response to his probing. The goal is *not *to confront her with what is on the recordings or with the recordings (that could have legal implications) but to better understand what he's dealing with himself. So part of the point of agitating her sister and brother-in-law while a VAR is set up to record their phone call or in-person meeting is to hear what they candidly say when they think they're alone when they talk about what happened.

_As a warning, recording people without their consent is very likely illegal where the OP lives so he'd would need to keep the recordings to himself and not tell anyone else about them. If he's concerned about any of that, he should talk to a lawyer and/or private investigator first, because they may now how to do things legally. He also needs to make sure he hides the VARs very carefully so his wife doesn't find them. If she does, she can avoid saying things. It's also something very likely to make his wife very angry or upset if she finds out she's been spied on that way. Going through her phone could also reveal texts or pictures, if she hasn't deleted them, but that could also be illegal and seen as an invasion of privacy. So he should tread carefully before going down that road, but it's yet another potential way to discover the truth._

Bottom line? Stop being such a nice guy who backs down and mess with them back. If you need the truth, fight to get it. And, again, are you sure that's what you really need and want? It could even worse than you currently imagine.


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## QuietGuy (Aug 31, 2021)

Wow, that is a big burden you are carrying around. She is also obviously carrying a heavy burden. If you learned the truth and it was as bad as it seems it could be, what would your preferred outcome be? Would you want to stay together or divorce?
I do not know what you have shared with your wife, so I apologize if you have already done this. I am going to assume that you would prefer to stay together and heal together.
I would suggest that you choose a time and place you can speak to her without interruption. Start out by asking her to listen to you until you are finished, without commenting or interrupting you. Explain how much pain you are in on an ongoing basis. Tell her you understand she is in pain as well, based on her reactions in the past. Explain how badly you needed her to be there for you that night you called repeatedly and she did not answer. Talk about how people you both associate with have weaponized there knowledge of what happened and used it against you. Tell her how much that hurts and that you feel like the odd man out and the but of others private jokes. Explain that your goal is to know the truth, understand, heal together, forgive and move forward together in an authentic marriage. Tell her that it is clearly her decision on what she is willing to do for you. Tell her to take a couple of days to think about it and decide if she is going to help you heal or if she is going to leave you floundering and in pain. Tell her that you are willing to attend therapy with her if it will help her to come clean and start the healing process. 
At the end of the day you will have to find a way to move forward in a healthy way with whatever path she chooses.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

I've been thinking about what could possibly be in those pictures to cause his wife and her family to totally withhold all pictures of it from him when his wife was the maid of honor. Most people are proud and eager to show off pictures of themselves dressed up for a wedding like that. Hiding pictures is the behavior you see from people regarding pictures from raunchy bachelor and bachelorette parties where the guests went to far and it would get them in trouble with their loved ones, but this wasn't a behind closed door event. And if it's not just one or two pictures they could weed out, it must look bad -- really bad.

So it makes the most sense if one assumes that his wife went to the shower with the intent to get drunk, got sloppy drunk pretty quickly, the guys had their hands all over her and she was enjoying it, and she left in that car and had sex with one or more of the guys after the shower and wanted it and liked it enough to go for a second round after the wedding. In between she likely became infatuated with the guy(s) she had sex with and drank more at the wedding, where she may have been hanging all over one or more of them or making puppy-dog eyes at them in the wedding party pictures and all of the other pictures of her from that wedding such that there simpy are no safe or innocent pictures or videos of her to show @John910 that won't cause him to ask questions. Her behavior may even be embarrassing enough that the family decided on their own to bury them. Did her parents treat you any differently after you returned?

If that's the case, then unless he is a very, very, very forgiving person and is willing to sign up for what will likely be years of additional suffering (reconciliation can take years), I find it more and more difficult to see how this doesn't end in a divorce to escape a source of pain. And unless she can explain how her behavior at the wedding was out of character, it may very well have been in character, but for a part of her character that she's never shown her husband.

I also do think he should give paternity tests to his children, whether he tells his wife he's doing it or not. If either of his children aren't his, then his wife has likely been hiding a lot more from him. I may be very wrong, and hope I am and his children are his (and if the tests confirm that, he wouldn't have to worry about that anymore), but if his wife was pregnant when he married her and someone else could be the father, she may have picked him as a convenient guy who would marry her without asking too many questions. That could explain why her parents were unhappy with the marriage and would mean that how she behaved and the wedding maybe wasn't as out of character for her as it seems.

If he keeps looking for the truth, I hope it's not as bad as it looks. I hope his children are his. If he still loves his wife and wants to forgive her, I hope he can do so and I hope she'll come around to getting counseling with him to help. But there is a lot about this story that stinks badly and raises all sorts of red flags. Many of the details make a lot more sense if one assumes she was a more experienced party girl in high school and before they got married than the OP believes she was than trying to make sense of her mysteriously getting drunk and going insanely out of character for only a few days and nights for a brief time after promising she wouldn't.


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## John910 (28 d ago)

oldshirt said:


> Every WS that has ever walked the earth says they “can’t remember” the details and specifics of the affair.
> 
> We also need to keep in mind this was a family event with her siblings and parents and grandparents and aunts and uncles and even her great Aunt Genevieve from Idaho were there.
> 
> ...


I thought I should clarify my wife has a very small family that would have attended these events, 1 uncle, 1 aunt and 3 cousins and that's it. They do have family friends that would have attended the wedding but may not have attended the shower. There would have been no aunt Genevieve to save the day. Also the men were not friends of my sister in law. They were friends of the groom. Yet from what I understand the groom has a large family who were all in attendance. The shower was held in the grooms hometown near the college they all attended. The wedding was held in my sister in laws home town (our home town) The two cities are 2 hours apart.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

@John910 
Do you have a game plan yet?
@QuestionAssumptions suggestions for weeding out the info from the relatives seems like a solid plan if you can play it right.


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## John910 (28 d ago)

As you all know my original question was should I believe her when she say's nothing at all happened sexual at the shower or the wedding? You overwhelmingly agree she is lying and some things surely did happen. So thank you for confirming what I already believed. I need to clear up a couple of things. My oldest son is a fan of ancestry and has taken a DNA test and he is definitely mine. Also she didn't marry me because she was pregnant we were already planning to marry before that. Her parents didn't like me because I was kinda from the wrong side of their tracks. They wanted her to marry a college graduate with a great future. They didn't believe I had one. Also I never thought she was a skank. However I knew she would not be able to handle her liquor since she had no experience with alcohol prior to this. I also knew that she liked to dance and have a good time. I trusted her but not in this situation it was like the perfect storm for something to happen. I would have been fine with her going to the wedding if my parents would have been invited. I would have even been fine if she would have kept her promise and didn't drink. My reasons for asking her not to stand up were valid and they proved to be true. Alcohol, slow dancing, being pushed together with 4 young horny single guys are not something anyone wants their un escorted wife to do.
Also there is lots of talk about the scenario's that could have played out. I play those out in my head as well. 
1. She could have left with them and one of them got fresh she rebuked them and they took her to her sisters. (possible) (not likely)
2. She could have left with them and was convinced to go to one of their apartments for a couple more drinks passed out and they did what ever they wanted to her. (possible)
3. The same scenario as 2 only she didn't pass out but had sex with them willingly (possible but very unlikely)
4. She got comfortable with one of these men dancing and partying at the shower, was lonely, her inhibitions were down from the alcohol and they ended up going to his apartment and having sex or having sex in the car. (plausible)
5. When the wedding came around the man she had sex with at the shower called her and asked to stay at our house. That way he wouldn't need a hotel room. She was still lonely we had an empty house, if anyone asked she could say he was her cousin staying for the wedding. As far as her family goes they could say they got a long great and to be helpful (since my wife didn't drive) he was going to be her chaufer to the rehearsal dinner, the wedding and then later to and from the reception. She was lonely, he was good looking, nice, willing to drive her around again the alcohol the dancing etc. etc. 
6. number 4 played out and then on the night of the wedding because she trusted this man when he suggested they stop at the hotel the guys were staying at to keep the partying going they went there had sex and the other guys joined in without her consent.
I believe she went to the shower with the intent of having a good time, maybe having a drink or two and dancing. So she wouldn't be a wall flower she bought the dress and made sure she looked good. I think she thought that was all that would happen. But she drank more than she could handle and 1 or two of these scenarios played out. 
Consequences: 
Obviously I would be the most happy if number 1 happened but I believe that is pretty doubtful.
If number 2 happened i would be upset with her, but I would forgive her and then do everything I could to ruin those 4 guys. If number 3 turned out to be true I would divorce her. If number 4 & 5 played out we would both need to work with my therapist and it still might end in divorce. In my mind 6 would be very difficult to decide what to do.
Of course I have no proof other than what I already know from her cousins and the men.
I do agree with QA that somehow I need to see the wedding & shower pics. This would give me some solid evidence as to how she was behaving. I have thought the next time we were at her sisters house I would ask to see them and see how they react. I need to do this without warning so they don't have time to sort out any pics they don't want me to see. But I wouldn't be surprised if they came up with some excuse so I wouldn't get to see them. I believe they also have a degree of shame about all this. Otherwise why haven't I already seen the pics. Why have they never discussed these events in front of me. I have seen one picture that my wife's parents had it was taken right after the wedding. The picture was of my wife, my mother in law and her sister all leaning on a car. My wife had her arms folded, looking to her right at the ground with a look of shame on her face. My mother in law was in the middle arms folded and looking straight ahead and disgusted. My wife's sister had her arms folded looking away and to the left with an expression of anger. It looked like the two sisters were mad and mom was in the middle trying to settle something. Of course in my state of mind I imediately thought of one of the scenario's above playing out and how the family didn't want it to get out? Maybe a foolish thought. There is also one other thing the best man who stood up with my wife was at event and my wife started telling me how she hated him. She is not normally like that. When I tried to find out more about that all she would say was he was rude to her? Anyway thanks for all the advise..


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

John910 said:


> As you all know my original question was should I believe her when she say's nothing at all happened sexual at the shower or the wedding? You overwhelmingly agree she is lying and some things surely did happen. So thank you for confirming what I already believed. I need to clear up a couple of things. My oldest son is a fan of ancestry and has taken a DNA test and he is definitely mine. Also she didn't marry me because she was pregnant we were already planning to marry before that. Her parents didn't like me because I was kinda from the wrong side of their tracks. They wanted her to marry a college graduate with a great future. They didn't believe I had one. Also I never thought she was a skank. However I knew she would not be able to handle her liquor since she had no experience with alcohol prior to this. I also knew that she liked to dance and have a good time. I trusted her but not in this situation it was like the perfect storm for something to happen. I would have been fine with her going to the wedding if my parents would have been invited. I would have even been fine if she would have kept her promise and didn't drink. My reasons for asking her not to stand up were valid and they proved to be true. Alcohol, slow dancing, being pushed together with 4 young horny single guys are not something anyone wants their un escorted wife to do.
> Also there is lots of talk about the scenario's that could have played out. I play those out in my head as well.
> 1. She could have left with them and one of them got fresh she rebuked them and they took her to her sisters. (possible) (not likely)
> 2. She could have left with them and was convinced to go to one of their apartments for a couple more drinks passed out and they did what ever they wanted to her. (possible)
> ...


I think family maybe wanted the wife to get cozy with the college educated guys and leave you. I would get in contact with them for more info. Hell they may have all had her at same time, sounds like they want to brag. Then she needs poly to prove otherwise. Record talk with the guys.

I would even ask them who got BJ, 3some? Talk about her being good at it, they may be inclined to readily agree with you. Talk like she is a conquest and they are sure to jump on the wagon to brag about the nights. Might even find out if it was in your house.
You could also mention she is implying it could be assault by them, they may start singing like a canary about how her behavior was during time in question. 
Either way she is showing you she is a woman that can not be trusted to tell the truth or depended on to be there for you.

No way in hell would my wife had done the things she has. She would have been back home waiting for my call. It is apparent to me that she does not really care all that much for you. If she were feeling guilty, I would think she would be rocking your world nightly to make up for it indefinitely. 

But her behavior, I would require poly and if staying, we will be moving far away. Find out family is complicit in it, they would not be welcome at my home.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

Edited a bit upon a reread.

Thanks for the clarifications. If you are confident that you know who your wife was when you married her is and that your children are yours (and you've confirmed that about your oldest), that narrows down the possibilities.



John910 said:


> As you all know my original question was should I believe her when she say's nothing at all happened sexual at the shower or the wedding? You overwhelmingly agree she is lying and some things surely did happen. So thank you for confirming what I already believed.


It's clear that she lied to you about the precautions she'd take to stay safe, also lied to you about things at the time about what happened, and has lied some more when you've confronted her for more information more recently to hide something she doesn't want you to know and this has undermined your trust in her and ability to believe that she's telling you the truth. That she jumped to accusing you have having inappropriate contact with women and brought up divorce over your more recently inquires about those nights suggests that something bad and likely sexual and divorce-worthy happened, especially if her reason for mentioning divorce was a conscious or unconscious attempt to warn you off about asking for more information.

You've described a few situations where your wife has lied to you or evaded telling you more about that wedding. In some cases, her lies and evasions seem pretty obvious and transparent but that's why they stood out for you. Overall, how would you characterize your wife's ability to lie? Were her original lies before and immediately after the wedding events convincing or did you have your suspicions for years because they always seemed off to you but you kept letting it go because you wanted to believe her?



John910 said:


> They wanted her to marry a college graduate with a great future. They didn't believe I had one.


I assumed that was part of the problem. I also assume that's a factor in the contempt the frat boys have shown toward you. Did her parents' attitude change for the better over the years?



John910 said:


> Also I never thought she was a skank. However I knew she would not be able to handle her liquor since she had no experience with alcohol prior to this. I also knew that she liked to dance and have a good time.


OK. So the big question here is why she drank to the point she was slurring her words after promising you that she wouldn't drink. How did she end up drinking at all and then drinking so much? Was it her intention to disregard her promise and, if so, why? Some people will deliberately drink to lower their inhibitions. Or was she encouraged to drink by her cousins and others around her and then deliberately plied with more drinks to make her very drunk. In other words, did someone (her cousins, the frat guys) convince her to try the slow screws and then the guys just kept handing her more of them or was she the one ordering them and asking for more? What went wrong here?



John910 said:


> Also there is lots of talk about the scenario's that could have played out. I play those out in my head as well.


The reason I've argued this from a few different angles is to try to help you think through this and maybe think about things or see things that you haven't already considered. And the reason why I think many others often seem to assume the worst about your wife or what she's capable of is that they've seen or read far worse in infidelity stories and don't want your love for her to blind you to what may have happened. At the end of the day, you know your wife and the details better than we do, so filter accordingly. And apologies if I'm telling you to consider things you've already considered.



John910 said:


> 1. She could have left with them and one of them got fresh she rebuked them and they took her to her sisters. (possible) (not likely)


This would give her a reason to be embarrassed for ignoring your warnings and her promises but doesn't explain the taunting from the frat guys, their focus on how she got home from the shower, or your wife's reaction to your probing about what happened. This would have been fairly easy to admit to and stick to early on if it's what happened. Whatever happened is likely more than them just them being fresh.

There is also a variation of this where things got a bit more heated (things like kissing, breast groping, hands inside of clothing, etc.) but she put an end to it before it went further. She may also have been too impaired to immediately realize what was happening or or how to stop it but sobered up as things progressed. Its possible that the frat guys told you everything inappropriate that happened (lap sitting and butt grabbing) and the taunt about driving her home was to mess with you and your wife, making you doubt her, but it seems more likely that they were hinting more happened based on how you wrote about it.



John910 said:


> 2. She could have left with them and was convinced to go to one of their apartments for a couple more drinks passed out and they did what ever they wanted to her. (possible)


I agree this is possible. Her cousin said she was slurring her speech. Her inability to remember exactly how she got home and what happened could be real. She may have been too drunk to remember what she was doing or what happened. And if that's the case, anything that those men did to her would be sexual assault because she wouldn't have had the ability to give meaningful consent in that state.



John910 said:


> 3. The same scenario as 2 only she didn't pass out but had sex with them willingly (possible but very unlikely)


Another variation of this between 2 and 3 and closer to 2 is that she wasn't quite unconscious but was way too drunk to really know what was going on. Poor judgement and awareness are not an all-or-nothing things when people are drunk. In that variant, she may vaguely remember what happened but not actually consenting to it or wanting it to happen. And she may vaguely know something bad happened but not all of the details. I agree that it's unlikely that she was sober enough to meaningfully consent and yet agreed to having group sex or serial sex with all of them unless she had a history of such things.



John910 said:


> 4. She got comfortable with one of these men dancing and partying at the shower, was lonely, her inhibitions were down from the alcohol and they ended up going to his apartment and having sex or having sex in the car. (plausible)


Yes, plausible. Is the level of impairment from alcohol relevant to you here? Again, I don't see impairment or consciousness is being all-or-nothing and I do think impairment is meaningful when assessing blame.

You wrote: "One of them quickly mentioned yea I remember her she liked to party. One of them said you couldn’t take your hands off her ass. Another said yea well she was sitting on your lap. Before they were done they made it clear that she partied with them at the wedding and shower. One of the men said you should ask her how she got home that night."

Did it sound like one of those frat guys was the focus of their innuendo? Where they using "you" in the plural sense, implying that they all did things with her, or did they keep looking at one particular guy as the one who she did the most with?. If they kept looking at one of them, particularly if he was the best man that your wife said she hated, then he's the guy who most likely did inappropriate things with your wife, whether it was scenario 1, 2, 3, or 4 and it may be less likely that they all did something bad with her.



John910 said:


> 5. When the wedding came around the man she had sex with at the shower called her and asked to stay at our house. That way he wouldn't need a hotel room. She was still lonely we had an empty house, if anyone asked she could say he was her cousin staying for the wedding. As far as her family goes they could say they got a long great and to be helpful (since my wife didn't drive) he was going to be her chaufer to the rehearsal dinner, the wedding and then later to and from the reception. She was lonely, he was good looking, nice, willing to drive her around again the alcohol the dancing etc. etc.
> 6. number 4 played out and then on the night of the wedding because she trusted this man when he suggested they stop at the hotel the guys were staying at to keep the partying going they went there had sex and the other guys joined in without her consent.


Another scenario would be that they used whatever happened in the car or while they were taking her home, which they could have had pictures or video of (if this was recent enough where digital cameras and cell phone cameras were common), to blackmail your wife into more contact the night of the wedding. I don't think that's likely but those guys seemed trashy enough to consider them doing that.

After the information you provided about the angry wedding picture and your wife saying she hated the best man, I think both of these sound less plausible than they might have before you provided those details unless the shame was over being caught doing something at the wedding. I think that if something that bad happened at or after the wedding that the frat guys would have taunted you about that, too.

It now sounds possible that if she fought with her sister and/or mother during the wedding (possibly over what happened at the shower or maybe being caught doing something at the wedding) that she spent time with her parents the night after the wedding (or her sister's, if she didn't leave immediately for a honeymoon).

Her parents may know something about what happened and that may be why they showed you the one picture you saw to show your wife looking ashamed at the wedding, maybe because of guilt. Was it her mother or father that showed you the picture? Does the shame and anger look staged or legitimate? Are her parents still alive and are they people you could talk to about this?

Her cousin's focus on the night of the shower being wilder and the frat guys' focus on the night of the shower and driving her home suggests that's the key point at which it's most likely that something inappropriate happened. It's possible that your inability to contact her after the wedding was for a different reason that had nothing to do with sex or being drunk.

Did the cousins or frat boys mention anything specific happening during or after the wedding to you? Was she drinking and dancing at the wedding, too, or just the shower based on what you know?



John910 said:


> I believe she went to the shower with the intent of having a good time, maybe having a drink or two and dancing. So she wouldn't be a wall flower she bought the dress and made sure she looked good. I think she thought that was all that would happen. But she drank more than she could handle and 1 or two of these scenarios played out.


The unanswered question here is why she drank at all when she explicitly promised you she wouldn't. Did she need encouragement to drink and, if so, who encouraged her? Her sister? Her cousin? Did those guys initiate it? How did she get her first drink if she was 20? Were they telling her that you were being too uptight asking her not to drink and she could handle it? Knowing this may not change much with your wife, but it could help you understand where things went wrong and why.



John910 said:


> Obviously I would be the most happy if number 1 happened but I believe that is pretty doubtful.
> If number 2 happened i would be upset with her, but I would forgive her and then do everything I could to ruin those 4 guys. If number 3 turned out to be true I would divorce her. If number 4 & 5 played out we would both need to work with my therapist and it still might end in divorce. In my mind 6 would be very difficult to decide what to do.


Have you explained this to her yet?

It sounds like the only instant-divorce scenario for you is if she consented to group sex with the frat guys and I agree that's very unlikely. I assume if she was heavily impaired but conscious and had group sex that you'd interpret that more like 2 than 3, right?

In all other cases, it sounds like you are at least willing to try to save your marriage and attempt reconciliation. If that's the case, then you need to help her to understand that the lies, trickle truth, and guessing are hurting you badly and hurting your marriage and that the best way to save your relationship is for her to come clean, tell you what she remembers, and to try to work through it together instead of trying to sweep it under the rug.

It sounds like your therapist doesn't think the denial is good for her, either. She can disclose to you with a therapist there or with a member of her family who already knows what happened if she doesn't want to face you alone. You can also ask her to write it in a letter that you can read, instead of facing you, if that would be easier for her. She may not want to look you in the eye and tell you what happened if she's ashamed of it.

As I mentioned earlier, if she thinks her choice is between divorce and divorce because she expects the truth to lead to divorce, then she has no incentive to disclose what happened to you. If you clearly and honestly tell her that telling the truth can save your marriage while the lies are destroying it and you, that gives her incentive to come clean and she might even agree to a polygraph if you need one, so long as what she did wasn't so terrible (like scenario 3) that you won't forgive her for it. It sounds like you can offer that to her when you are ready.



John910 said:


> Of course I have no proof other than what I already know from her cousins and the men.
> I do agree with QA that somehow I need to see the wedding & shower pics. This would give me some solid evidence as to how she was behaving. I have thought the next time we were at her sisters house I would ask to see them and see how they react. I need to do this without warning so they don't have time to sort out any pics they don't want me to see. But I wouldn't be surprised if they came up with some excuse so I wouldn't get to see them. I believe they also have a degree of shame about all this. Otherwise why haven't I already seen the pics. Why have they never discussed these events in front of me.


It might be better to try to see those pictures without your wife being there, if your sister-in-law and her husband will see you and talk to you about your wife and those events without your wife being there. Otherwise, you could be fighting both their shame and your wife's shame and it might be easier to convince them than her and convince them when she's not there if you explain everything to them. It's going to be easier to talk to and wrangle the responses of those two people than those two people plus your upset wife trying to shut it all down.

Either way, in order to get them you are likely going to have to explain what's been going on with you and your wife, what you suspect and how it's bothering you, those 6 scenarios that you can imagine, why the details matter to you, why you can't just trust your wife anymore, and why you absolutely need to see those pictures. Further, you should tell both her sister and her husband what the cousins and frat guys have said to you (I assume you ran into them because they are still friends of the family and got invited because of that) and your concern that they may have sexually assaulted your wife to see how they react to that (and how your wife reacts if she's there). If your wife is there and wants to hide from what she's done, there is a good chance she'll be really unhappy about you saying that to others. If you talk to them without her, she's also likely to be really unhappy about it.

You also should to explain to your wife when you push for the pictures, if you haven't already by then, that you are not digging into this for an excuse to divorce your wife but want to know the truth so you can heal and possibly save your marriage and that full disclosure is the best way to save your marriage, even if your wife went astray, she's ashamed of it, and her sister and husband are ashamed of the role they played in it. And you need to know the truth even if it will hurt you because the lies are already hurting you.



John910 said:


> I have seen one picture that my wife's parents had it was taken right after the wedding. The picture was of my wife, my mother in law and her sister all leaning on a car. My wife had her arms folded, looking to her right at the ground with a look of shame on her face. My mother in law was in the middle arms folded and looking straight ahead and disgusted. My wife's sister had her arms folded looking away and to the left with an expression of anger. It looked like the two sisters were mad and mom was in the middle trying to settle something. Of course in my state of mind I imediately thought of one of the scenario's above playing out and how the family didn't want it to get out? Maybe a foolish thought.
> 
> There is also one other thing the best man who stood up with my wife was at event and my wife started telling me how she hated him. She is not normally like that. When I tried to find out more about that all she would say was he was rude to her? Anyway thanks for all the advise..


Was the one guy she hated one of the ones who taunted you? Was he the focus of the talk about groping your wife? Was he the one that they said your wife sat on the lap of? Rude could suggest it stopped at groping and sitting on his lap and maybe he made snarky comments about it at the wedding like he did to you in front of her mother and sister, leading to the shame/disgust/anger picture and a trip to her parents' home after the wedding to talk about it and maybe make sure there wasn't a repeat after the wedding. That could also be enough to make your wife ashamed of ignoring your concerns and cast an unpleasant mood on them for the pictures.

So what they might be trying to hide from you is your wife looking ashamed and specifically uncomfortable around the best man at the wedding, a guy who she would have been asked to stand and sit near and take a lot of pictures with as the maid of honor. And if your wife was ornery about being near him or wasn't smiling or looking guilty for the pictures, that would have essentially ruined the wedding party pictures and given her sister a reason to be pissed off at her. A sure way to piss off a bride at her wedding is to ruin her wedding party pictures by not cooperating and not looking happy.

So it's possible the anger is because the best man or one of the other guys spilled the beans about what happened after the shower to the wedding party at the wedding or said something snarky like they did to you to her sister or mother that made your wife look ashamed and that led to the emotions in that picture. It's even possible that she asked him about things she didn't remember from after the shower and he told her what she did and they did for the first time and others heard, too. Having him out what happened after the shower to her sister and/or parents would be a very good reason for her to hate the best man and call him rude, even it it didn't go all the way to sex or much beyond what they told you.

It's also possible the shame, disgust, and anger were over your wife acting inappropriately with the best man before the picture you saw was taken and that's why her mother and sister were angry (if the caught them doing something) and it's also possible that they were angry about something else entirely, like your wife being late. If they caught her or heard about what happened after the shower, her parents might have dragged her home with them after the wedding to have a talk with her or make sure there was no repeat, which might explain her second absence that night.

Yeah, those pictures should tell you a lot and you need to see them.

The the next thing to consider is whether or not her sister and her husband knew then or know now what happened at the shower, that she drove off alone with the frat guys, and that you've since been taunted you about groping your wife and driving off with her, Did the husband's brother hear the exchange with the frat guys since you said he introduced you to them?

That your sister and her husband seem to keep inviting those guys to events (I assume they're why those guys keep showing up) suggests that either your wife's brother-in-law is as trashy as they are and doesn't care what happened or that your brother-in-law and her sister don't really know what happened. If your wife has toxic shame about what happened, maybe she hasn't told anyone else what happened or they don't know the details. But if the anger, disgust, and shame in the photo was over your wife's behavior with the best man or another guy after the shower or at the wedding, and her sister was angry about it, I find it difficult to understand why they'd keep inviting them to events that you and your wife are also at. Were the sister and her husband inviting them or someone else?

So, again, maybe talking to your wife's sister and her husband about all of this, which revolves around her wedding, the role she gave your wife, and the men her husband invited into the wedding party alone and without your wife might confirm or refute some things you are suspecting. And if they care about your wife and don't know what happened after the shower and are unaware of the taunting the frat guys have subjected you to, then it could lead to her sister and her husband confronting those guys and finding out what happened. And if your wife's sister doesn't know everything that happened but her husband does, that might force her to confront him and for him to tell her what he knows. You may find out more from them than from your wife if she was heavily impaired at the time. And that may even put her sister and her husband on your side to encourage her to talk to a counselor about what happened so maybe she can eventually talk to you about it.

Note that if you can accept that your wife was impaired and believe she was taken advantage of, consider whether you really want to know all of the details about what happened beyond that, especially if she can't honestly remember them either. Some betrayed spouses say that the details helped them because they'd been imagining even worse but some regret hearing the details because it helps them visualize what happened. If you learn the details, you won't be able to unlearn them if they hurt you and your marriage.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

John here is what i don't understand if you told her point blank that she can either take a polygraph to prove she is nto lying...and if she refuses tell that you then know she is lying...because honestly your approach is almost fultile....


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## blackclover3 (Apr 23, 2021)

John910 said:


> As you all know my original question was should I believe her when she say's nothing at all happened sexual at the shower or the wedding? You overwhelmingly agree she is lying and some things surely did happen. So thank you for confirming what I already believed. I need to clear up a couple of things. My oldest son is a fan of ancestry and has taken a DNA test and he is definitely mine. Also she didn't marry me because she was pregnant we were already planning to marry before that. Her parents didn't like me because I was kinda from the wrong side of their tracks. They wanted her to marry a college graduate with a great future. They didn't believe I had one. Also I never thought she was a skank. However I knew she would not be able to handle her liquor since she had no experience with alcohol prior to this. I also knew that she liked to dance and have a good time. I trusted her but not in this situation it was like the perfect storm for something to happen. I would have been fine with her going to the wedding if my parents would have been invited. I would have even been fine if she would have kept her promise and didn't drink. My reasons for asking her not to stand up were valid and they proved to be true. Alcohol, slow dancing, being pushed together with 4 young horny single guys are not something anyone wants their un escorted wife to do.
> Also there is lots of talk about the scenario's that could have played out. I play those out in my head as well.
> 1. She could have left with them and one of them got fresh she rebuked them and they took her to her sisters. (possible) (not likely)
> 2. She could have left with them and was convinced to go to one of their apartments for a couple more drinks passed out and they did what ever they wanted to her. (possible)
> ...


*John910 any of these scenarios is valid for a divorce. and I would proceed with the divorce even without having the full details. you will never be able to know the full truth or details about her adventure. the pictures are already been sorted out ( this is what we all do). now you have 4 guys talking about the good time they had with your wife. 
if you forgive and stay, your wife will always think about the fun she had (a person forgets shame and pain and always remember good times), guys will always talk how they scored with a married woman, you on other hand will continue suffering thinking about what happened. 5 or 10 years down you will still think about it and it might ever repeat itself. her family doesn't like you and think down on you, I'm still not sure why would even think about staying - meet a lawyer, find new partner and stop wasting time. May be this is meant to be to push towards a better future and becoming a better person. *


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Divinely Favored said:


> Either way she is showing you she is a woman that can not be trusted to tell the truth or depended on to be there for you.


Isnt this actually key? John doesn’t know what she did or what she will do. No way to live IMO. Gorgeous on outside, corruption inside.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> If she was drunk enough that she honestly can't remember getting into the car very well or what happened after that, then she was incapable of giving meaningful consent, which would also mean any sexual contact initiated by those men was sexual assault.


Wow! By analogy, what a great legal defense to a charge of drunk driving! She was so drunk she didn't realize she was driving a car. In fact, the car MADE her drive drunk. She was just an innocent victim. Brilliant!

Actually, the law says she chose to drink, she chose the consequences. She's 100% responsible for what happened. And something DID happen. Get her to make a written timeline of everything that happened that night in preparation for a polygraph. The only reason she would refuse to do either is because the worst happened. You seem to think you can get past it. If you can, assume the worst, and get on with your life. If you can't, you're wasting time guessing in how many ways she betrayed you at a most vulnerable time in your life.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

John910 said:


> Anyway thanks for all the advise..


So, what are you going to do with all the advice? Nothing I guess. So, why keep messing with your brain if you are not doing anything, specially since she will go to her grave not telling a thing. After all these years I think you should let dogs lie still. She put one on you and you know it.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

Sfort said:


> Wow! By analogy, what a great legal defense to a charge of drunk driving! She was so drunk she didn't realize she was driving a car. In fact, the car MADE her drive drunk. She was just an innocent victim. Brilliant!
> 
> Actually, the law says she chose to drink, she chose the consequences. She's 100% responsible for what happened. And something DID happen.


Drunk driving is a pretty special case because of the death and destruction it can cause. It's a crime punished without actually causing real damage to deter it because of the potential damage it can cause. That's also why there is a minimum drinking age and other restrictions on it, which other adults helped the OP's wife avoid by getting drinks for her. Alcohol features in many infidelity stories and was once banned by Constitutional Amendment in the US because of how much harm it causes (only 27 Amendments have passed in over 200 years and one of those was to repeal Prohibition because people decided the ban was even worse).

The OP did try to get his wife not to drink and she promised not to drink. She broke that promise and the outcome he predicted happened, just as one shouldn't be surprised if a drunk driver crashes their car into a tree. She partied drunk and crashed and nobody should be surprised by the consequences. But we live in a culture that says a husband trying to tell his wife not to drink without him or attend a wedding alone where she'll be alone with single guys (even after he accurately predicted how it would turn out) is unreasonable, controlling, and maybe even grounds for divorce itself. People have said as much in this thread. And people are also arguing the alcohol is irrelevant and she would have cheated anyway. If alcohol doesn't lead to impairment, poor judgement, and avoidable harm then why not let people drive drunk, too?

Here is the correct analogy for what I was saying:

If you drive drunk, you are not charged the same as having committed premeditated murder or homicide. If you deliberately aim your car at someone and run them over and kill them, that's premeditated murder, the worst kind of murder with the highest penalty. If you drive drunk and hit someone because you are impaired, depending on the jurisdiction, you'll generally face some form of vehicular or reckless homicide charges, sometimes with enhancements to discourage drunk driving, but it will be a lesser charge than premeditated murder. You'll have a dead person either way but intent matters for the punishment of the perpetrator.

And note that I never claimed she was an innocent victim and have pointed out that her decision to drink while promising not to is important and bad. She clearly made bad choices that led to what happened. She did the equivalent of driving drunk despite her husband telling her not to and being too young to drink legally and then she likely wound up committing some sort of infidelity that hurt @John910. It sounds like intent and impairment matter to him as does the nature of the infidelity. If it doesn't matter and he can't forgive infidelity no matter the intent, then you are correct that he should probably just get a divorce based on what he already knows. I'll also add that I've already mentioned that just because he may think he's willing to reconcile and not get divorced doesn't mean that he'll be able to pull it off.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

How long ago did this happen?


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> If she was drunk enough that she honestly can't remember getting into the car very well or what happened after that, then she was incapable of giving meaningful consent, which would also mean any sexual contact initiated by those men was sexual assault.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If she didn’t remember being the shower/wedding party **** then she wouldn’t have any guilt about it. She knows damn well what she did.

Why make excuses for a cheater where there isn’t any point?

My guess is that you condone cheating.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

@John910, you are not looking at this right.

Those four guys only did what your WIFE allowed them to do. They owed you nothing. You’re just making excuses for your wife so you can find away to stay with her. Just like guys on here that somewhat blamed the my for the actions of their cheating wives.

Your cheating wife is the only one responsible for her actions back then. She made the decision to **** others while you were deployed like so many other military wives. We have both seen this during our military service.

Stop making excuses and face the problem like the man you are for once. She isn’t a loving wife doing what she did then lying about it for all of these years.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> Drunk driving is a pretty special case because of the death and destruction it can cause. It's a crime punished without actually causing real damage to deter it because of the potential damage it can cause. That's also why there is a minimum drinking age and other restrictions on it, which other adults helped the OP's wife avoid by getting drinks for her. Alcohol features in many infidelity stories and was once banned by Constitutional Amendment in the US because of how much harm it causes (only 27 Amendments have passed in over 200 years and one of those was to repeal Prohibition because people decided the ban was even worse).
> 
> The OP did try to get his wife not to drink and she promised not to drink. She broke that promise and the outcome he predicted happened, just as one shouldn't be surprised if a drunk driver crashes their car into a tree. She partied drunk and crashed and nobody should be surprised by the consequences. But we live in a culture that says a husband trying to tell his wife not to drink without him or attend a wedding alone where she'll be alone with single guys (even after he accurately predicted how it would turn out) is unreasonable, controlling, and maybe even grounds for divorce itself. People have said as much in this thread. And people are also arguing the alcohol is irrelevant and she would have cheated anyway. If alcohol doesn't lead to impairment, poor judgement, and avoidable harm then why not let people drive drunk, too?
> 
> ...


Problem is that he is relying on her word as to the level of impairment. We simply do not know that her level of intoxication reached a level where she could not form intent.
We do know, however, she has lied and continues to lie, despite knowing how this is affecting her husband's mental health. This is gaslighting and is abusive.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

Megaforce said:


> Problem is that he is relying on her word as to the level of impairment. We simply do not know that her level of intoxication reached a level where she could not form intent.
> We do know, however, she has lied and continues to lie, despite knowing how this is affecting her husband's mental health. This is gaslighting and is abusive.


That she always initially attempts to lie and minimize is a problem. That her lies always try to deny or dismiss the problem or she storms off to end the discussion is also a problem. They undermine trust in her.

But that's part of why I think she may not be lying about being unable to remember what happened around that car trip. Once he started drilling into the car trip and the end of the shower, she started to acknowledge the uncertainty of her memory in ways that wouldn't benefit her. She acknowledged she wasn't sure that she wasn't groped or sat on laps, which means she acknowledged that it may have happened. She said she can't clearly remembering getting into the car, which means she's admitting to being too drunk to remember things clearly. Basically, there was no benefit to her acknowledging uncertainty and unclear memories if she was trying to maintain that she remained in control and did nothing wrong. 

Could she still be lying? Sure. And I wasn't there when she answered so I might be reading too much into it. But the way he described her talking about the car ride sounded to me like she was really having trouble remembering and that's not unreasonable to believe given what her cousin had said about her drinking.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

ABHale said:


> My guess is that you condone cheating.


Assume whatever you want. See my username. If she cheated, I don't condone it. But I also don't condone punishing the innocent for crimes they didn't commit.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> Assume whatever you want. See my username. If she cheated, I don't condone it. But I also don't condone punishing the innocent for crimes they didn't commit.


Who said anything about punishing the innocent. Her own actions and words condemn her.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> That she always initially attempts to lie and minimize is a problem. That her lies always try to deny or dismiss the problem or she storms off to end the discussion is also a problem. They undermine trust in her.
> 
> But that's part of why I think she may not be lying about being unable to remember what happened around that car trip. Once he started drilling into the car trip and the end of the shower, she started to acknowledge the uncertainty of her memory in ways that wouldn't benefit her. She acknowledged she wasn't sure that she wasn't groped or sat on laps, which means she acknowledged that it may have happened. She said she can't clearly remembering getting into the car, which means she's admitting to being too drunk to remember things clearly. Basically, there was no benefit to her acknowledging uncertainty and unclear memories if she was trying to maintain that she remained in control and did nothing wrong.
> 
> Could she still be lying? Sure. And I wasn't there when she answered so I might be reading too much into it. But the way he described her talking about the car ride sounded to me like she was really having trouble remembering and that's not unreasonable to believe given what her cousin had said about her drinking.


This is so precious!!!

O’ she can’t remember getting pounded by four guys because she was in such ecstasy. She wasn’t as drunk as everyone is letting on. OP is using the she was so drunk as an excuse so he doesn’t have to think that she did it dead ass sober.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

ABHale said:


> O’ she can’t remember getting pounded by four guys because she was in such ecstasy. She wasn’t as drunk as everyone is letting on. OP is using the she was so drunk as an excuse so he doesn’t have to think that she did it dead ass sober.


Her cousin, unsolicited, said that she was drunk enough to slur her words. She admitted that she couldn't be certain that she wasn't groped and didn't sit on someone's lap when confronted about that and there was no benefit to her to admit that. Sounds pretty drunk to me. It's easy to come to any conclusion you want if you start discounting evidence that doesn't agree with the conclusion you want.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> Her cousin, unsolicited, said that she was drunk enough to slur her words. She admitted that she couldn't be certain that she wasn't groped and didn't sit on someone's lap when confronted about that and there was no benefit to her to admit that. Sounds pretty drunk to me. It's easy to come to any conclusion you want if you start discounting evidence that doesn't agree with the conclusion you want.


This isn’t the first time this has happened. The cheater and friends covering up the truth. We actually had a cheater posting on here and lying her ass off to us. Cheater lie, that is what they do.

EVERYONE he has talk to about this has hinted to more going on then what they have said. The wife is the only one that was still lying saying nothing like that happened. Then started changing her story by getting pissed about being asked about it.


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> Her cousin, unsolicited, said that she was drunk enough to slur her words. She admitted that she couldn't be certain that she wasn't groped and didn't sit on someone's lap when confronted about that and there was no benefit to her to admit that. Sounds pretty drunk to me. It's easy to come to any conclusion you want if you start discounting evidence that doesn't agree with the conclusion you want.


OK, well, then if something happened when she was too drunk to consent, that means she was raped. Then she ought to file complaints with the police for prosecution. 

If she's not sure, why doesn't she want to find out in order to a) repair this issue that is threatening her marriage and b) bring any perpetrators to justice?


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

John910 said:


> the *best man* who stood up with my wife was at event and my wife started telling me *how she hated him.* She is not normally like that. When I tried to find out more about that all she would say was he was rude to her?


I'd say you've found your culprit. If she messed around with him at the shower and he didn't take her as seriously as she would have liked at the wedding or he used then ignored her (this would be my guess) it pissed her off.
The other possibility is she told you she hated him as a smoke screen to gaslight you. It's pretty common theme with cheaters.

If you're not going to do anything about her lying and not keeping to the guidelines she told you she would then all the other scenarios and 'what ifs' are just academic/chaff.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

Wolfman1968 said:


> If she's not sure, why doesn't she want to find out in order to a) repair this issue that is threatening her marriage and b) bring any perpetrators to justice?


Because she's still claiming that nothing seriously bad happened and may actually be telling the truth. She also may not remember that bad things happened, if something bad happened, depending on how drunk she was. And if nothing bad happened, it looks like that would only be because the men in that car didn't take things further because she certainly gave them the opportunity to do so, whether deliberately or accidentally.

The problem with lying for years is that people will no longer trust you even when you are telling the truth. I really wish they still taught this story in schools because so many people don't seem to understand that lying destroys trust these days.

Note that I'm not saying she's definitely telling the truth. I'm not saying that it's certain that she didn't do more and cheat. I'm saying that even if she was telling the truth, everyone here would be skeptical of it because of her history of lying.

That's part of why I've been suggesting the OP talk to other people (her sister, her brother-in-law, her cousins, and even the other guys in the wedding party) and try to get access to the wedding pictures instead of asking her to admit to more.

And, yes, she should be trying to repair the damage to her marriage and help the OP with his problems. My questions are does she understand just how much damage this has caused to her marriage and understand how much this is hurting the OP?


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## CrAzYdOgLaDy (Mar 22, 2021)

Alcohol gets blamed for so much. She wanted to do whatever it was she was doing, and she can't blame alcohol. She thinks she can make this **** up and you will believe your sweet innocent wife. Your wife is waving many red flags. I hope you find out the truth, maybe a lie detector? If she refuses she is a great big liar.

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


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## jparistotle (Jul 10, 2018)

John910 said:


> My question will be a bit lengthy. Several years ago while I was on active duty with the army there were some events that occurred that made me suspect my wife cheated on me. I was 19 and she was 20 we had been married a little over a year and already had 1 child which was mine.
> 
> She told me I was the first man she had intercourse with. However she admitted to being sexually active with several boyfriends before me but said she had never gone all the way.
> 
> ...


Coupe of questions
Do you still love her
Are you happy with your life


John910 said:


> As you all know my original question was should I believe her when she say's nothing at all happened sexual at the shower or the wedding? You overwhelmingly agree she is lying and some things surely did happen. So thank you for confirming what I already believed. I need to clear up a couple of things. My oldest son is a fan of ancestry and has taken a DNA test and he is definitely mine. Also she didn't marry me because she was pregnant we were already planning to marry before that. Her parents didn't like me because I was kinda from the wrong side of their tracks. They wanted her to marry a college graduate with a great future. They didn't believe I had one. Also I never thought she was a skank. However I knew she would not be able to handle her liquor since she had no experience with alcohol prior to this. I also knew that she liked to dance and have a good time. I trusted her but not in this situation it was like the perfect storm for something to happen. I would have been fine with her going to the wedding if my parents would have been invited. I would have even been fine if she would have kept her promise and didn't drink. My reasons for asking her not to stand up were valid and they proved to be true. Alcohol, slow dancing, being pushed together with 4 young horny single guys are not something anyone wants their un escorted wife to do.
> Also there is lots of talk about the scenario's that could have played out. I play those out in my head as well.
> 1. She could have left with them and one of them got fresh she rebuked them and they took her to her sisters. (possible) (not likely)
> 2. She could have left with them and was convinced to go to one of their apartments for a couple more drinks passed out and they did what ever they wanted to her. (possible)
> ...


What does your wife say when
1. Her Cousin talks about that night and how wild she was
2. Her other cousin talks about that night same thing, and we lost her
3. The Frat boys talk about that night and tell you to your face ask her how she got home

Does she realize they are really trashing her and they are doing it with and to you. They are not making her look good and showing you very little respect. in fact, they are, in my opinion, telling you your wife is lying. Why has she not confronted them or set the record straight with them. Is it because she is afraid the truth will come out.

Let me ask you. What do you want. Do you love your wife enough to bury your head in the sand and let that one night go. is that what she is expecting of you.

You have no reason to believe her. Every time you do someone else contradicts what she said happened. This is your life and family believe what you want.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> Because she's still claiming that nothing seriously bad happened and may actually be telling the truth. She also may not remember that bad things happened, if something bad happened, depending on how drunk she was. And if nothing bad happened, it looks like that would only be because the men in that car didn't take things further because she certainly gave them the opportunity to do so, whether deliberately or accidentally.
> 
> The problem with lying for years is that people will no longer trust you even when you are telling the truth. I really wish they still taught this story in schools because so many people don't seem to understand that lying destroys trust these days.
> 
> ...


She must do the stupidest person alive if she can’t see the damage she is causing.

Or

She just doesn’t give a damn. This is her true position I believe.


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## DonJuan (Oct 20, 2021)

John910 said:


> My question will be a bit lengthy. Several years ago while I was on active duty with the army there were some events that occurred that made me suspect my wife cheated on me. I was 19 and she was 20 we had been married a little over a year and already had 1 child which was mine.
> 
> She told me I was the first man she had intercourse with. However she admitted to being sexually active with several boyfriends before me but said she had never gone all the way.
> 
> ...


No


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## LeGenDary_Man (Sep 25, 2013)

John910 said:


> My question will be a bit lengthy. Several years ago while I was on active duty with the army there were some events that occurred that made me suspect my wife cheated on me. I was 19 and she was 20 we had been married a little over a year and already had 1 child which was mine.
> 
> She told me I was the first man she had intercourse with. However she admitted to being sexually active with several boyfriends before me but said she had never gone all the way.
> 
> ...


Blue highlight = Your wife's statements, temper tantrums, and reactions.

Green highlights = Accounts of other people who spent time with your wife. 

Red highlight = Interruption was INTENTIONAL.

Emphasis mine. Your wife's statements do NOT match with the accounts of other people who spent time with her. The accounts of other people seem to CONVERGE and convey the message that your wife was enjoying attention of the men [in question], considered drinking and dancing with them, allowed them to touch her inappropriately, and went out with them eventually. One of the men [in question] had this to say to you: _"_*you should ask her how she got home that night."*

This is "damning" to say the least.

*If* nothing happened then WHY the account of other people seem to CONVERGE but do NOT match with your wife's statements? WHY she feels the need to GASLIGHT you and ACCUSE you of doing objectionable things when you try to probe her?

Your wife CANNOT be taken as a trustworthy spouse given her history and how she is treating you. She is NOT being honest with you. She is NOT taking responsibility for HER PART in the "deed." She is NOT showing remorse and doing her best to help you HEAL and do whatever it takes to REBUILD her marriage with you. Nothing.

Purple highlights = Your absolute lack of self-respect and self-worth is showing. You continue to put up with your wife's poor character because she is pretty...  You will not get another woman if she decides to leave you?



John910 said:


> I have read almost everyone's posts and everyone has said my wife is lying. I pretty much agree with that and as someone said I already knew the answer. I would like to clear up a few things. I appreciate QA's comming to my defense. So here goes.
> First off my wife back then was not a drinker or party girl. She was however very young as was I. Her and I would go out dancing or to parties and have a good time. But she never expressed any desire to go party without me at the bars or anything like that. She was everything to me the girl of my dreams when we married and I think she loved me very much. I think she still does. We have two sons and she has been a good mother. I still love her and always will.
> That said let me move on:
> When this happened as I said earlier I was on active duty in the Army (infantry). We were only married a little over a year when I was called to active duty. The year before that my son was born and during that year we had bought our first house. We got married very young (she was pregnant) I was 18 and she was 19. Now at 19 her at 20 I was called to active duty and deployed. This meant for the next 6 months she would be alone living on a soldiers allotment and taking care of our 1 year old son. Not an easy job and to top off she didn't drive. I have to add one more thing her parents were not very supportive of our marriage and told me I would ruin her life. It didn't help that she was pregnant before we got married. I hope this will explain better what we were both dealing with at the time.
> ...


Red highlight = Your wife's parents will not take responsibility because they are in a bind. 

Green highlight = Freudian slip.

Purple highlight = YOU are making excuses for your wife's EXCESSES and LIES. The men [in question] are "predators" in your view? Your wife assured you that she will not drink* but allowed these men to get her drunk, allowed these men to touch her inappropriately, and went out with them which implies HOOK UP [with at least one of them] as noted above. Your wife continues to gaslight you to this day when probed in this regard. She is NOT INNOCENT in this matter but COMPLICIT. This judgement is in view of the accounts of other people who spent time with her. 

*In your words: _"The weekend before the wedding she told me not to worry, she would not do any drinking or slow dance with any of these single guys (accept for the Grand March). She also promised she would come home early."_

Some might try to sell you the notion that the men [in question] took advantage of her innocence but the information on hand suggest otherwise. Your wife did not stick to her words and keep her promise as noted above. Age is lame excuse for a person who is legally an adult and can give consent, and particularly married. Her parents not liking you is your attempt at rationalizing her EXCESSES and LIES. 

A married woman should know better, how to carry herself in Public gatherings where alcoholic drinks are accessible and intermingling with men is possible due to traditions. 

I live in a relatively different society and my social circle is sober. But temptations are here as well, particularly in private parties, and also for young women in the universities due to co-education. Alcoholic drinks are available in my country (Murray Brewery develops these drinks), and can be served in private parties. My wife likes to go out but does not consume alcohol and attend private parties where she might be tempted. If I am not going to a wedding, my wife will attend it with her MIL and our daughter and sit with them. My wife will go on a trip with her work colleagues but in the company of other females and students. She is honest with me about her activities. I am probably lucky but I expect from a sensible and trustworthy wife to carry herself like mine in life.



John910 said:


> As you all know my original question was should I believe her when she say's nothing at all happened sexual at the shower or the wedding? You overwhelmingly agree she is lying and some things surely did happen. So thank you for confirming what I already believed. I need to clear up a couple of things. My oldest son is a fan of ancestry and has taken a DNA test and he is definitely mine. Also she didn't marry me because she was pregnant we were already planning to marry before that.  Her parents didn't like me because I was kinda from the wrong side of their tracks. They wanted her to marry a college graduate with a great future. They didn't believe I had one. Also I never thought she was a skank. However I knew she would not be able to handle her liquor since she had no experience with alcohol prior to this. I also knew that she liked to dance and have a good time. I trusted her but not in this situation it was like the perfect storm for something to happen. I would have been fine with her going to the wedding if my parents would have been invited. I would have even been fine if she would have kept her promise and didn't drink. My reasons for asking her not to stand up were valid and they proved to be true. Alcohol, slow dancing, being pushed together with 4 young horny single guys are not something anyone wants their un escorted wife to do.
> Also there is lots of talk about the scenario's that could have played out. I play those out in my head as well.
> 1. She could have left with them and one of them got fresh she rebuked them and they took her to her sisters. (possible) (not likely)
> 2. She could have left with them and was convinced to go to one of their apartments for a couple more drinks passed out and they did what ever they wanted to her. (possible)
> ...


Red highlight = Funny. It is your time to ask - does their daughter deserve to be with YOU given her history and how she treats YOU?

Purple highlight = Your wife is NOT INNOCENT in this matter. Other people have given you much food for thought (surprisingly) but YOU continue to make excuses for your wife's EXCESSES and LIES.

Green highlight = Freudian slip or Gaslighting?

You have produced no consequences for your wife, so nothing will change in your case.

You can reach out to the men [in question] to fill you in (one by one), and RECORD these conversations. This will be a start.



Rubix Cubed said:


> I'd say you've found your culprit. If she messed around with him at the shower and he didn't take her as seriously as she would have liked at the wedding or he used then ignored her (this would be my guess) it pissed her off.
> The other possibility is she told you she hated him as a smoke screen to gaslight you. It's pretty common theme with cheaters.
> 
> If you're not going to do anything about her lying and not keeping to the guidelines she told you she would then all the other scenarios and 'what ifs' are just academic/chaff.


This.


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## Avgman (Jan 18, 2019)

John910 said:


> My question will be a bit lengthy. Several years ago while I was on active duty with the army there were some events that occurred that made me suspect my wife cheated on me. I was 19 and she was 20 we had been married a little over a year and already had 1 child which was mine.
> 
> She told me I was the first man she had intercourse with. However she admitted to being sexually active with several boyfriends before me but said she had never gone all the way.
> 
> ...


Definitely lying...my cheating wife couldn't remember either, funny how quickly they forget those nights, but can remember every little thing you've ever done. Way too many flags there buddy. 

You've waited a long time, if you can forgive you move on and remember what happened. 

Good luck!


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