# Need some advice - Married but feel like I'm single



## mace17

Hi everyone, I am new here and I hope you all can give me some opinions. I have been married to my husband for 5 years, been with him for almost 9 and we have a 7 year old son together. He is a good man for the most part, works hard, treats me good, never controlling or jealous. We get along and rarely argue. The problem is that he has no interest in spending any time with our son, and that anything to do with our son is my responsibility - doctor bills, daycare, school fees, activities. He has gone to a few of his baseball games, and maybe one parent/teacher conference. I don't think the people at daycare, school, or his Kung Fu teacher even realize that my son has a father. He does pay for some of the household bills, but most of them are my responsibility, as well as everything involving our son. We both work full time and make about the same amount of money. I have tried to talk to him about this, and he will try for a week or 2 to spend a little more time with our son but that's it. Am I being unreasonable wanting him to help our with some of our son's expenses? Its gotten to the point where I feel very resentful and I'm sick of feeling like a single mom when I have a husband.


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## PBear

No, you're not being unreasonable. Now what are you going to do about it?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## norajane

What is he doing with his time and money if not contributing to the raising of your son and your household?


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## Starstarfish

How did you two split finances between the time your son was born and when you got married?


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## committed4ever

How on earth have he gotten away with this for even just the 5 years you've been married?? Do you not combine your finances? If you're keeping finances separate but splitting bills your sons expenses should be included. 

If you just paying more bills with no question ask I would suggest you go to your husband and let him know it's a new day. Everything now going forward is 50-50. No excuses.


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## Starstarfish

And - he has no need to be controlling, OP - he basically has no responsibilities. He spends his time and his money however he wishes, and you don't mind "because he's a good man."

And him working hard is kind of irrelevant if he's not helping with his son. He realized that if this continues, and you get divorced, he'll have to pay for those child expresses, right? 

In what ways is he a good man who all but ignores his child?


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## A Bit Much

Maybe he doesn't believe the child is his. Or maybe he didn't want a child.

Whatever the reason is, you've talked to him about it and he has changed nothing. It's up to you to make the changes now.


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## barbados

That's an odd one. Usually guys are all into having sons, especially the first born. Couple question : 

Was he on board to have children when you got married, or was it just mostly you who wanted kids ? 

What does your H usually do with his free time while you are doing everything for your son ?


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## mace17

Thank you for all your replies so far. H likes to hoard his money - he has thousands of dollars in his bank account and still tells everybody he's broke. He hates to part with his money for any reason, even to pay bills. When we first got together, I took over paying most of the bills becase he would just wait until stuff got shut off, like the phone or electricity, and then finally pay it. We have individual bank accounts, and he is responsible for the mortgage payment and his car payment, both of which I have set up on auto-pay because otherwise he wouldn't pay them either. I take care of all the rest of the bills. 
And yes, he did not want children - we started dating and 5 months later I ended up pregnant even though I was on the pill. I told him and said that I knew he didn't want a kid and that I would be happy to disappear and he would never have to deal with it, but he said if he was going to have kids, he was glad it was with me and seemed happy about it. I still didn't marry him until our son was 2, because I didn't want either of us to do it for the wrong reasons. He said he was thrilled to have a son, but really hasn't been involved with him much. He doesn't even know where our son is during the day when we are at work, since I take care of all that too. So maybe that's it, but I wasn't exactly ready for a child either but I took responsibility for it, and if he didn't want to then he should have left me then and never asked me to marry him.


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## Lon

Well he is atleast working towards building the nest egg, not irresponsible with money by burning through it. You guys need a good marriage counsellor slash financial advisor to help show that indeed everything you both earn is not separate, it is all community property. And your need is that he divert up a little of the savings stream towards todays living expensed to improve the quality of life of the entire family in the present.


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## Prodigal

mace17 said:


> When we first got together, I took over paying most of the bills becase he would just wait until stuff got shut off, like the phone or electricity, and then finally pay it.
> 
> ... I wasn't exactly ready for a child either but I took responsibility for it, and if he didn't want to then he should have left me then and never asked me to marry him.


^^This stood out to me. You know he had big issues with money long before you got married. So, he hasn't changed as far as that is concerned.

Granted, he didn't have to propose to you.

But you didn't need to accept his proposal, did you?

You sound like a responsible, loving parent. But your marriage sounds awful to me. I couldn't stomach someone with such major problems.

And ignoring or paying almost no attention to his own child? Meh.


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## mace17

barbados said:


> That's an odd one. Usually guys are all into having sons, especially the first born. Couple question :
> 
> Was he on board to have children when you got married, or was it just mostly you who wanted kids ?
> 
> What does your H usually do with his free time while you are doing everything for your son ?


H usually sits and watches tv or plays games on the computer. Once in awhile I can get him to come along so we can do stuff as a family, but usually we end up cutting things short because he is complaining about something. So its just easier to take my son to do stuff myself. I always thought dads would play baseball with their sons and teach them the game, but in my house, that's all my job too. Now I'm working on teaching him golf and in a few years I'll take him hunting.


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## mace17

Prodigal said:


> ^^This stood out to me. You know he had big issues with money long before you got married. So, he hasn't changed as far as that is concerned.
> 
> Granted, he didn't have to propose to you.
> 
> But you didn't need to accept his proposal, did you?
> 
> You sound like a responsible, loving parent. But your marriage sounds awful to me. I couldn't stomach someone with such major problems.
> 
> And ignoring or paying almost no attention to his own child? Meh.


Good point, I knew he was terrible with money, but I guess I didn't realize that he wouldn't even want to help out with expenses for his own son. And you are right - I could have and probably should have said no.


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## mace17

The only thing he doesn't mind spending his money on is his hobby of bowling, which I have no problem with - everybody needs a hobby.


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## Prodigal

So what, if anything, are you going to do? MC? IC? Move out or stick it out? 

It sounds to me like you are perfectly capable of caring for your son and supporting yourself.

You husband sounds like a selfish child. Sorry, but that's my take on it.


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## mace17

Prodigal said:


> So what, if anything, are you going to do? MC? IC? Move out or stick it out?
> 
> It sounds to me like you are perfectly capable of caring for your son and supporting yourself.
> 
> You husband sounds like a selfish child. Sorry, but that's my take on it.


Very true, I feel like I have an extra child around most of the time instead of a husband. And I don't know what to do, my son is so proud of the fact that he is one of the few kids in his class that have a mommy and daddy that are actually together, but on the other hand, he doesn't understand why daddy doesn't want to do stuff with him. So I don't know. 

Sorry for my ignorance, but what do MC and IC stand for?


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## Prodigal

MC = Marriage Counseling

IC = Individual Counseling

Your son will soon be old enough to realize that his dad isn't into him. He will also see your husband as a role model for how a husband should behave.

Not good.


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## mace17

Ah I get it, yes I am thinking about suggesting MC, not sure how he will feel about it. And I realized that it was setting a bad example for my son when he told me one day he was glad he was a boy because all he would have to do when he grows up is laying around and watch tv since moms do all the work.


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## mace17

He is a good man other than those 2 issues though, I keep wondering if I'm just expecting too much. Most men I know don't like kids, and they definitely don't like giving their wives money for anything, so maybe its normal.


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## A Bit Much

mace17 said:


> He is a good man other than those 2 issues though, I keep wondering if I'm just expecting too much. Most men I know don't like kids, and they definitely don't like giving their wives money for anything, so maybe its normal.


You ended up marrying a man that isn't marriage material. Even he knows it. There are guys you date and have a good time with and there are those you settle down and have a family with. He's the former 100%.

He is who he is, right now, today and likely will not change. Will you wait and see if he does, or just call it what it is and cut your losses?


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## Prodigal

Ah, but there's the rub. His two issues are he is stingy with money and he doesn't emotionally connect with his own child.

And these aren't deal-breakers for you because ....????

Sorry, but the two character flaws, or issues, or problems, or whatever-you-wish-to-call-them that he has are pretty big.

And I've read my share of responses from the men here on TAM, and I have to tell you, they DO love their children. From my personal experience, I don't know any men who aren't into kids. In their early- or mid-20's, then I would say yeah, okay.

But responsible, adult men are not this way.

Sorry, but the man you have is little more than an emotionally-stunted child.

If you want to stick it out feeling alone in a marriage, it is your right to do so. I was alone in my marriage, because my husband is an alcoholic.

And I wouldn't wish that type of loneliness on my worst enemy.


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## IsGirl3

what exactly is it that you love about this guy? emotionally, I'm asking. not that he's hard working, but what he contributes to your relationship with him. I know how he is with your son, but with you? What does he do for you?

I know that many couples keep separate finances, but I don't really understand this. You're both in the same boat together.

but that's not your question. do you feel like you are single because you are footing all the bills for your kid, or do you feel like you're single because he's not around for your son AND you?

if you've lost your love and respect for him as a husband and as a decent human being, it's time to show him your ace card, which is that you want more, expect more, need more from him, and if he can't step up his game, then you're going to walk. Then tell him you want to go to MC with him to discuss this issue which is very serious to you. And if he tells you that this is your problem, not his, well then you'll know exactly how important the marriage is to him.


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## tryingtobebetter

Do you know what your husband's upbringing was like? I ask because my father was completely uninterested in me, his only son. I know he was much affected by his own upbringing (sent away to boarding school at age seven) which left him emotionally damaged - not that it helps me much to understand that.

If it were his upbringing that was at the root of the problem then I guess IC for him might help. Though I do not know whether he would buy in to it . My father was openly contemptuous of psychiatrists, calling them 'trick-cyclists'. We never did establish a good relationship and I am still angry about all this more than forty years later.


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## justonelife

mace17 said:


> He is a good man other than those 2 issues though, I keep wondering if I'm just expecting too much. Most men I know don't like kids, and they definitely don't like giving their wives money for anything, so maybe its normal.


Disagree! I think part of your problem is that you just accept this as normal.

First of all, lots of men I know love kids, especially boys about your son's age. Maybe they aren't into babies but this is the really fun age when boys can start doing things with their dads, like playing sports, playing games, going to amusement parks, etc. 

Second of all, men don't "give their wives money". It's YOUR money too and should be shared equally for the good of your family. He doesn't have to give it to you, it's legally yours and you are using it to support his son.

Third, if you feel like you have a second child rather than a hubby, kiss the marriage goodbye. That's no way to live and the resentment will just eat you alive. Do you have any sex life? Are you attracted to him at all? I'm betting not much.


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## Lon

Yes, sounds like he needs some individual therapy to deal with his intrinsic low ambition, drive and likely depression. Meanwhile Mace, don't give up on him, because it sounds a lot like me that you already have and now don't know where to turn, there is an air of superiority in your comments and that is lethal to a relationship. You are in this together so your choices are to try communicating each others relationship needs and help him self-motivate or else leave the relationship to seek a different one with someone else, but there are no guarantees that there is a perfect match waiting to happen. It is not that he isn't marriage material (nobody truly fits such a definition) it's probably just that he has given up on being the man he at one point in time wanted to be and detaches from everything around him to cope. His computer games are his escape from the pain of his reality. Do you want to see him become the man he would like to be, or would you rather turn away from it all and hope to simply trade up leaving him to his own devices?


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## barbados

mace17 said:


> He is a good man other than those 2 issues though, I keep wondering if I'm just expecting too much. Most men I know don't like kids, and they definitely don't like giving their wives money for anything, so maybe its normal.


You are absolutely NOT expecting too much for a father to want to be involved with his son ! I have two daughters, but almost all of the other fathers that I know that have sons are VERY involved with them with sports, fishing, hunting, etc. From my experience, your husband would be the exception, not the rule.

AS for the money thing, he's just selfish and greedy. Like you said, will spend money on his hobbies (i.e., himself) but not his family.

I wish you all the best moving forward. You seem like a very level headed person, and your son is very lucky to have you.


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## mace17

One thing I guess I should have mentioned is that this is a third marriage for both of us, I guess that should have been a sign too that neither one of us was very good at this. I found out from his older grown daughter recently that he had been the same way with her and her sister when they were kids, basically ignoring them. This part I never knew before. I also have a grown daughter from my first marriage, and when she was still at home H couldn't stand her and I couldn't leave them alone ever or they would start fighting. Things got better after she moved out, but I felt bad for her because he expected more from her than his own kids. 
In response to what I love about him, I love how he accepts me for who I am, how he is a hard working person, and he is not controlling at all and very easy going, with a wonderful sense of humor. I don't want to give up on him, I feel that we have both been through a lot and deserve to be happy now and I wouldn't want to leave him. I also don't want to screw up another relationship, I am obviously not good at this. My first husband was an abusive control freak and the second was an alcoholic child molester, so I guess you can see why current H, despite his flaws, is a dream guy to me. And I don't want to give up, that's why I posted on here hoping for some advice. I'm thinking MC might be the way to go, maybe we can get to understand each other better.

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## committed4ever

So, Mace if he not controlling how hard would it be to talk to him about either writing you a check every pay period or getting some of his deposit into your account (assuming they separate). Then you could work toward combining finances. He could alway s have a set amount going to saving.

Have you ever try having a heart to heart with him about spending time with your son? Would he be a no-show if you ask him to take him to some of his event because you "have something to do"? He really need to fix that regarding his son; it no way you can call him a good man if he is not treating his own child right.


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## mace17

He refuses to share money, occasionally if I really need money for gas or groceries or something he will give me some, but he won't let me have access to his account because his ex wife refused to work and just spent all his money (according to him). He says that me running out of money all the time is proof that I'm irresponsible with money and that if we put our money together I would just spend it all. What he doesn't seem to realize is that I pay most of the bills and that's why I'm always broke. I wrote it all down on paper once, what he paid for and what I paid for, and he even said wow I guess you do pay for more stuff. But that was as far as it went. When he was done paying child support for his daughter, I was hoping he could take maybe one more bill, but he still wouldn't. He's upset because I canceled all the premium movie channels but I said I don't watch them and I can't afford to pay for them anymore, if you want them then you can pay. So he stopped complaining because he doesn't want to pay. 
And of course just when I was complaining on here he actually spent close to 15 minutes with our son playing outside. So I guess he does spend some time with him and I should stop complaining. And I do occasionally go do things and leave our son with him, and they usually do ok as long as I make sure to tell him everything, like make sure to feed him, and when bedtime is, and whether he needs a shower that night or not. But with our son being 7, he is pretty self sufficient and doesn't need much care so it's not so bad.

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## Prodigal

Okay, you want advice, so I'll give it to you. You aren't going to like what I have to say, but I'm pulling off the gloves and getting blunt. 

You knew your husband had MAJOR issues with money before you got pregnant or married him. I mean, who the heck allows their utilities to be turned off because they don't want to pay the bills? He incurred the expense for using lights, television, heat, a/c, whatever. But he didn't want to part with his money.

Let's get real here. You rushed in, fixed that issue, and started paying the utility bills. You are an enabler.

He is stingy with money and he isn't all that keen on having a child in his life. He makes half-hearted attempts to engage his son. And his son is picking up his modeling of what a man does: watches t.v. and checks out.

You have heard the age-old story of the frog put into a pot of warm water. As the heat was turned up, the frog adapted. Eventually, the frog was boiled to death because the water cooked him. But the frog never jumped out of the pot. 

Set boundaries. You can live with this nonsense and adapt like the boiled frog. Or you can lay it on the line. You want him to get into counseling. You want him to find out why he is so stinkin' cheap. You want him to figure out why he relegates his own son to second-rate status because he would rather passively stare at a t.v. set or hang out on a computer.

The bottom line is this: You have no power to change your husband. You only have power to set your boundaries and decide what you can live with or cannot live with.

Up to you. Either live with him as he is, or tell him you are going to take your son, sue for divorce, and then he WILL pay his fair share of child support. It's either that, or he gets into some heavy-duty counseling to clean up his act.

I put up with a lot of similar crap when I was much younger. I no longer tolerate this nonsense. I no longer enable. I no longer live enslaved to codependency. I fix myself. I don't make other people my project to fix.

So there ya go. And take it from me, as the quintessential poster child for codependency. I wasted too many years of my life on this planet trying to fix the losers of the universe.

If you decide to stay and work on this marriage, that's fine. But quit enabling and paying more than your fair share of the bills. SET BOUNDARIES as to what you will accept and not accept.

You do not have to end up boiled to death. Seriously.


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## mace17

Prodigal, thank you for your blunt advice. Seriously, that's what I was looking for, I don't want anything sugar coated I want to hear the truth. I have had a couple friends tell me the same thing but I didn't want to hear it. But I come here and hear the same thing, so there must be something to it. I am really sick of feeling like a single parent even though I have a husband, and something has to change. I will try marriage counseling first and see where it goes. Thank you for being honest with me. I will let you all know how it goes.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## mace17

Let's get real here. You rushed in said:


> And I totally agree - most of my relationships have been me trying to fix somebody, and I am starting to discover it does not work. I thought this one didn't need any fixing for a change but I guess I was wrong.
> 
> And here's a question for all of you - if I go to IC, will that look bad in a custody battle if it goes to that down the road? After the battle I had with my first ex I really don't want to go there and if I do I want to be sure I will win and not have anything bad against me. Can going to counseling be used at proof that mom is mentally unstable?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## nevergveup

Do you really think your husband would even try for custody
of your son?

In your own words,you said he never bothers to spend any
of his time with his son.He sounds like its all about him and
he has never grown up.

Also your husband accuses you of spending all your money.
Give him a taste of it by not paying extra bills that he benefits from,such as cable.

When its cut off,tell him your doing it to save money.


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## mace17

nevergveup said:


> Do you really think your husband would even try for custody
> of your son?
> 
> In your own words,you said he never bothers to spend any
> of his time with his son.He sounds like its all about him and
> he has never grown up.
> 
> Also your husband accuses you of spending all your money.
> Give him a taste of it by not paying extra bills that he benefits from,such as cable.
> 
> When its cut off,tell him your doing it to save money.


I'm not sure if he would, but I know that he married his first wife only because he thought she was crazy and since she was pregnant with their child he figured he would have a better shot at custody if he was married to her. And it worked. I would put my foot down on the whole bill thing, but late payment reflect on my credit too so I make sure everything gets paid even if I have to do it myself.

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## somethingelse

mace17 said:


> I'm not sure if he would, but I know that *he married his first wife only because he thought she was crazy and since she was pregnant with their child* he figured he would have a better shot at custody if he was married to her. And it worked. I would put my foot down on the whole bill thing, but late payment reflect on my credit too so I make sure everything gets paid even if I have to do it myself.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


So your husband does have children? You mentioned how he didn't want children, but when you were pregnant he said he was happy it was with you...just a bit confused. 

Either way, if it is true that he has a child with another woman, how does he treat that child? How involved is he?


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## r0r0bin

PBear said:


> *No, you're not being unreasonable*. Now what are you going to do about it?
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agree


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## Emerald

I've read your entire thread & your husband is not going to change who he is for you & your son - a cheap-man-who-didn't-want-another-child......children cost money.....so he probably resents your son which may be why he doesn't want to spend quality time with him...same story with his 2 daughters.

He is extremely self-centered & you knew this when you dated & married him but his (passive) personality met your need for a "nice" non-abusive man.

Your life & mental well-being will improve when you stop expecting him to change into something he is not & will never be.


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## mace17

somethingelse said:


> mace17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if he would, but I know that *he married his first wife only because he thought she was crazy and since she was pregnant with their child* he figured he would have a better shot at custody if he was married to her. And it worked. I would put my foot down on the whole bill thing, but late payment reflect on my credit too so I make sure everything gets paid even if I have to do it myself.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_
> 
> 
> 
> So your husband does have children? You mentioned how he didn't want children, but when you were pregnant he said he was happy it was with you...just a bit confused.
> 
> Either way, if it is true that he has a child with another woman, how does he treat that child? How involved is he?
Click to expand...

Sorry I did mention the previous marriages and children in post #27, I didn't mention them right away in the first post because I didn't want either of us to be judged on the fact that we have been married several times. And I didn't know until just recently that he had been the same way - distant and unavailable - with his other children also.

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## mace17

Emerald said:


> I've read your entire thread & your husband is not going to change who he is for you & your son - a cheap-man-who-didn't-want-another-child......children cost money.....so he probably resents your son which may be why he doesn't want to spend quality time with him...same story with his 2 daughters.
> 
> He is extremely self-centered & you knew this when you dated & married him but his (passive) personality met your need for a "nice" non-abusive man.
> 
> Your life & mental well-being will improve when you stop expecting him to change into something he is not & will never be.


So you are saying I should just accept his lack of responsibility and not ask him to be any different? That is basically what I have been doing, I know that people usually can't change and it's unreasonable to expect them too. But it just makes me irritated and sad sometimes when my son tells me he doesn't like his daddy because he never does anything with him, and I have to explain to him that daddy really does love him but isn't good at showing it.

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## Prodigal

mace17 said:


> So you are saying I should just accept his lack of responsibility and not ask him to be any different?


No, I don't think that was what Emerald was intimating at all. However, you have attempted to get your husband to join in on family activities. You have made it clear to him that he needs to show an active interest in his son.

The thing is, he makes minimal effort. He does change for awhile, then he reverts to his same old behaviors.

You HAVE made attempts to get him to change. You HAVE made it clear to him you are not happy with his emotional distance from his son.

Guess what? He hears you. But you have not given him any consequences. In other words, you complain, he complies, then everything reverts to the same-old, same-old.

Boundaries. It's all about boundaries.

You cannot change him. You can only change yourself.

So, as I believe Emerald was pointing out, you can accept what you have or you can issue a serious ultimatum.

Just be aware that ultimatums are YOUR boundaries. That doesn't mean he'll change one bit. But he will be very clear as to what you will and will not accept from him.

Me? I made it clear to my husband I could no longer live with an active alcoholic. There was/is nothing I could do to make him change his behaviors. All I could do was set a clear boundary.

I left almost four years ago. He's still drunk. I'm at peace.

And I maintain my boundaries for my own emotional well-being.


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## mace17

Prodigal said:


> mace17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you are saying I should just accept his lack of responsibility and not ask him to be any different?
> 
> 
> 
> No, I don't think that was what Emerald was intimating at all. However, you have attempted to get your husband to join in on family activities. You have made it clear to him that he needs to show an active interest in his son.
> 
> The thing is, he makes minimal effort. He does change for awhile, then he reverts to his same old behaviors.
> 
> You HAVE made attempts to get him to change. You HAVE made it clear to him you are not happy with his emotional distance from his son.
> 
> Guess what? He hears you. But you have not given him any consequences. In other words, you complain, he complies, then everything reverts to the same-old, same-old.
> 
> Boundaries. It's all about boundaries.
> 
> You cannot change him. You can only change yourself.
> 
> So, as I believe Emerald was pointing out, you can accept what you have or you can issue a serious ultimatum.
> 
> Just be aware that ultimatums are YOUR boundaries. That doesn't mean he'll change one bit. But he will be very clear as to what you will and will not accept from him.
> 
> Me? I made it clear to my husband I could no longer live with an active alcoholic. There was/is nothing I could do to make him change his behaviors. All I could do was set a clear boundary.
> 
> I left almost four years ago. He's still drunk. I'm at peace.
> 
> And I maintain my boundaries for my own emotional well-being.
Click to expand...

I am not good at ultimatums at all, I guess I am afraid of the consequences. I am able to put my foot down if it affects my children in a negative way, but not so good at doing it for myself. In this situation, I can't figure out what would be the most harmful for my son. I think it affects me more than him, because I'm am the one who gets resentful that he is all my responsibility, and I don't share that with my son at all. H even told me once that I should pay for daycare because I work all day instead of staying home with my child, but on the other hand he expects me to work and bring in my fair share so I am not a free loader. I don't get it sometimes, but I am willing to take care if my son and be a mother and father to him if that's what it takes.

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## Theseus

Mace,

Let me give a little different perspective on your situation, because your husband *WAS* my father almost to a T. 

My dad wasn't a bad guy, but he did zero things with me when I was very young, and simply couldn't connect to me at all. I'm sure my mom felt like a single mother much of the time. He just had no idea how to deal with babies or small children (maybe because his own dad wasn't around). Never even once threw a ball with me in the yard.

However, here's the weird thing. As I got older, I got much closer to my dad. We had more and more interests in common, and we got along much better. And ironically, I had nothing in common with my mother, so as I got older I didn't spend much time with her anymore. 

I know that "waiting it out" is not much of a strategy, but the problem could be that your husband just isn't comfortable with little kids. But the more he's exposed to them, the more he will feel comfortable, like a snowball rolling downhill. That's what happened when I became a father.

Money is another issue. I'm not sure how my parents divided money, but they certainly argued about it a lot. My advice would be to explain it to your husband this way - either he can contribute more money now, or he can be forced to contribute much more in child support after the divorce. His choice.


----------



## seagoat

mace17 said:


> He is a good man other than those 2 issues though, I keep wondering if I'm just expecting too much. Most men I know don't like kids, and they definitely don't like giving their wives money for anything, so maybe its normal.


Nothing wrong with not liking kids, and if those men get away with being pricks, more power to them, BUT it seems to me that you surround yourself with people that are not on your wavelength, and begin questioning your values, wants, and needs, in order to blend in with them. Don't deny yourself, and lower your standards. DON'T GO THERE!! 

I did something similar, and just now begin to realize that I have been surrounded by people whose outlook in life I do not share. Just because they are selfish does not mean that it is your job to feed and enable their selfishness. You deserve a helluva lot better than that, and your son most certainly does, too!!

As for your son following his dad's footprints in terms of how to treat women, I would not put too much stock in him learning the wrong thing, for as long as you maintain a strong, and countering presence in his life and upbringing. As my son grew older, he began to see the wrong in his dad's ways.


----------



## seagoat

mace17 said:


> I am not good at ultimatums at all, I guess I am afraid of the consequences. I am able to put my foot down if it affects my children in a negative way, but not so good at doing it for myself. In this situation, I can't figure out what would be the most harmful for my son. I think it affects me more than him, because I'm am the one who gets resentful that he is all my responsibility, and I don't share that with my son at all. H even told me once that I should pay for daycare because I work all day instead of staying home with my child, but on the other hand he expects me to work and bring in my fair share so I am not a free loader. I don't get it sometimes, but I am willing to take care if my son and be a mother and father to him if that's what it takes.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


Love yourself as much as you love your son. The concept of self-love was a very nebulous one for me almost all my life. I am just now beginning to grasp the idea, how it feels, and how it affects me. Setting boundaries will then become a natural thing to do, and settling for less no longer an option.

Aside from that, it sounds like your son also suffers from the climate in his home. Considering that, you pretty much have no choice but to challenge the status quo.


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## Prodigal

mace17 said:


> I am not good at ultimatums at all, I guess I am afraid of the consequences.
> 
> ... I'm am the one who gets resentful that he is all my responsibility, and I don't share that with my son at all.


Since you don't want to issue this man an ultimatum to get his act together and become a real partner to you - one who can loosen his stranglehold on his money and become an involved parent - you are going to be stuck with what you have right now.

And, yes, you will harbor a great deal of resentment towards him.

The thing is, you have to face the fact that nothing is going to change. Unless YOU do something about it.

What you have done thus far hasn't worked. Your husband knows he can do as he pleases. There are no real consequences for his actions/behavior.

The ball is firmly in your court. You cannot change him. You can only change yourself. And you are doing your son no favors exposing him to this type of family life. He is young, but believe me, children are perceptive.


----------



## mace17

Thank you all for sharing your advice and opinions. I realize that I will have to put my foot down and expect that some changes will happen, and be willing to issue an ultimatum and follow through with it. By going along with it and not saying anything, I am allowing it to continue this way and not making H respect my feelings or opinions at all. Thank you all and I will post any updates.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Wiserforit

mace17 said:


> Thank you all for sharing your advice and opinions. I realize that I will have to put my foot down and expect that some changes will happen, and be willing to issue an ultimatum and follow through with it. By going along with it and not saying anything, I am allowing it to continue this way and not making H respect my feelings or opinions at all. Thank you all and I will post any updates.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


Truthfully too, you married a guy who said and proved to be uninterested in your son. Got to take ownership of that. 

You're sick of it now. But the odds of him changing are low.


----------



## Quant

My wife would yell at me if I did any housework she says my job is to make money and love her.


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## mace17

Quant said:


> My wife would yell at me if I did any housework she says my job is to make money and love her.


Quant, 
You are a lucky man! I have given up on getting mine to do housework, or yard work, or home repairs..... But I'm ok with that, the one thing I really want is for him to be a good dad to his son and the rest doesn't matter.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## seagoat

Quant said:


> My wife would yell at me if I did any housework she says my job is to make money and love her.


Does she work full-time?


----------



## Laila8

mace17 said:


> He is a good man other than those 2 issues though, I keep wondering if I'm just expecting too much. Most men I know don't like kids, and they definitely don't like giving their wives money for anything, so maybe its normal.


No, it's not normal. Trust me. I know lots of men who love kids, especially their own! And a good man loves to provide for his wife. My husband doesn't "give" me money though, it's our money.


----------



## Emerald

mace17 said:


> Thank you all for sharing your advice and opinions. I realize that I will have to put my foot down and expect that some changes will happen, and be willing to issue an ultimatum and follow through with it. By going along with it and not saying anything, I am allowing it to continue this way and not making H respect my feelings or opinions at all. Thank you all and I will post any updates.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


The first step to solving a problem is acknowledging it. You have done that now & received good advice & feedback here. Some people do change once ultimatums are issued but most do not. I think you need to do what is best for your son in the end.


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## Quant

seagoat said:


> Does she work full-time?


No she goes to school.


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## mace17

Do you guys think that even if I am not able to get H to change at all that my son will be able to have a normal idea of what relationships are supposed to be like? I try to teach him things like we all help each other in a family, and I give him lots of praise when he helps me out with chores around the house, especially without being asked. We do lots of mom and son things together, like I've taught him a lot about baseball and golf and riding a bike. And I promised to take him hunting when he's old enough. I hope that even without a great role model for a dad he will understand family values and stepping up to do what's needed.


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## justonelife

mace17 said:


> Do you guys think that even if I am not able to get H to change at all that my son will be able to have a normal idea of what relationships are supposed to be like? I try to teach him things like we all help each other in a family, and I give him lots of praise when he helps me out with chores around the house, especially without being asked. We do lots of mom and son things together, like I've taught him a lot about baseball and golf and riding a bike. And I promised to take him hunting when he's old enough. I hope that even without a great role model for a dad he will understand family values and stepping up to do what's needed.


What is your definition of "normal"? All of the things that you are doing with your son will have a positive impact on him. However, his dad will also have an impact, regardless of what you do. It's just going to happen. He's living in the house with 2 adults and he is going to pick up cues from each of you.


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## norajane

You are showing him what it's like having you as a mom. 

Your H is showing him what it's like having him as a dad.

Your son will think those are "normal" mom and dad roles. Until he gets older and realizes his dad never spent any time with him. 

He will also see and learn what husband and wife roles are from your marriage. He is learning that it's "normal" for a wife and husband to behave the way you do in your marriage.


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## mace17

I keep hoping that maybe good teaching will keep him from following bad examples but I guess not. I am much like my mother was in relationships, so I understand about following examples.


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## Prodigal

mace17 said:


> Do you guys think that even if I am not able to get H to change at all that my son will be able to have a normal idea of what relationships are supposed to be like?


Well, here we go again .... You were not born with the power to change anyone. You are not "able" to change your H. Ever. Period. 

No, your son will not have an idea of what a normal relationship is, since his father is basically an uncaring lump. I imagine your son will view women as adept and capable. Men? Distant, disengaged, uninvolved. JMO.

I simply do not understand why a woman who can support herself and her child and raise him alone is in this so-called "marriage." 

I'd venture to guess that the third time 'round is not the charm ...


----------



## mace17

Prodigal said:


> Well, here we go again .... You were not born with the power to change anyone. You are not "able" to change your H. Ever. Period.
> 
> No, your son will not have an idea of what a normal relationship is, since his father is basically an uncaring lump. I imagine your son will view women as adept and capable. Men? Distant, disengaged, uninvolved. JMO.
> 
> I simply do not understand why a woman who can support herself and her child and raise him alone is in this so-called "marriage."
> 
> I'd venture to guess that the third time 'round is not the charm ...


I apologize for posting more questions again. My husband really does have some good qualities, like tonight he cooked steak on the grill for me. And then I talked to a friend I haven't talked to in a long time, and told her a little about my problems. She is very happy in her relationship and says her fiancé is the same way, showing absolutely no interest in their children and she accepts it as just the way it is. Which of course made me wonder why I'm complaining.


----------



## Prodigal

mace17 said:


> I apologize for posting more questions again.


You posted these questions before. They were answered. You are back with the same old, same old. You are not asking questions, you are stuck thinking you can change another person. 



mace17 said:


> My husband really does have some good qualities, like tonight he cooked steak on the grill for me.


Are you serious? Look, you came here for advice. If you don't like the answers, don't ask the questions. Cooking steak on the grill one night does not equate to being a good guy. Not after what you have posted about this man.

You want to defend him? Great. Fine. Go for it. But don't complain about his cheap selfish behavior or how he basically ignores his son. If you an live with a guy who tosses a steak on the grill and think that makes him a nice husband, I have no problem with that. 

But don't get your back up and start getting defensive when I offer you advice, okay? You can block me so you don't have to see anything I post on TAM. 




mace17 said:


> She is very happy in her relationship and says her fiancé is the same way, showing absolutely no interest in their children and she accepts it as just the way it is. Which of course made me wonder why I'm complaining.


So don't complain. Sounds like your friend is happy marrying a guy who shows "absolutely no interest in their children." Great. Maybe you should move your post to The Men's Clubhouse, because I assure you, there are plenty of men here on TAM who are emotionally invested in their kids and would probably lay down their lives for them.

So if your friend marrying a guy who treats her kids like sh!t makes what you have okay, so be it.

I have no more interest in this nonsense. Please ... block me. I'm sick of listening to someone justify a spouse's crappy behavior and treatment towards an innocent child. And that is what you have got.


----------



## mace17

Prodigal said:


> You posted these questions before. They were answered. You are back with the same old, same old. You are not asking questions, you are stuck thinking you can change another person.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you serious? Look, you came here for advice. If you don't like the answers, don't ask the questions. Cooking steak on the grill one night does not equate to being a good guy. Not after what you have posted about this man.
> 
> You want to defend him? Great. Fine. Go for it. But don't complain about his cheap selfish behavior or how he basically ignores his son. If you an live with a guy who tosses a steak on the grill and think that makes him a nice husband, I have no problem with that.
> 
> But don't get your back up and start getting defensive when I offer you advice, okay? You can block me so you don't have to see anything I post on TAM.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So don't complain. Sounds like your friend is happy marrying a guy who shows "absolutely no interest in their children." Great. Maybe you should move your post to The Men's Clubhouse, because I assure you, there are plenty of men here on TAM who are emotionally invested in their kids and would probably lay down their lives for them.
> 
> So if your friend marrying a guy who treats her kids like sh!t makes what you have okay, so be it.
> 
> I have no more interest in this nonsense. Please ... block me. I'm sick of listening to someone justify a spouse's crappy behavior and treatment towards an innocent child. And that is what you have got.


Prodigal, while I do appreciate your blunt honesty, I did not force you to read my post and if you are sick of listening to me then don't read it anymore.


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## committed4ever

Prodigal you are being unnecessarily harsh. Unless Mace PM something we didn't see nobody ask you to reply. You could have skip it and went on to something else. 

Mace have you consider that for your friend a frank discussion with her might help her avoid the heartache you are going through now by not going through with her marriage?


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## mace17

committed4ever said:


> Prodigal you are being unnecessarily harsh. Unless Mace PM something we didn't see nobody ask you to reply. You could have skip it and went on to something else.
> 
> Mace have you consider that for your friend a frank discussion with her might help her avoid the heartache you are going through now by not going through with her marriage?


Thank you for the suggestion - my friend is in a long term engagement, and has no plans to get married for many years yet. She was in a very unhappy marriage previously and doesn't see any need to rush into one again so that's a good thing. Hopefully her man will either become more involved with the kids or she will get sick of it and break it off.


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## tulsy

Wiserforit said:


> Truthfully too, you married a guy who said and proved to be uninterested in your son. Got to take ownership of that.
> 
> You're sick of it now. But the odds of him changing are low.


:iagree: THIS

My dad was like that....still is. I resented my mother for staying with him, since he was also selfish (ie: would spend all of the household money on himself, when I didn't even have shoes or clothes for school, stuff like that). I no longer have a relationship with either of them, but it not just because of this. 

I am the opposite. My 2 kids, both boys, are almost 13 and 15 years old. I KNOW what they are into, and I do those things with them. Many fathers only do what they want to do and try to get the kids to do it with them (ie: going golfing, bring kid). Kids see right through that chit...they know when dad isn't really interested in anything they want to do. It can be very depressing, and when mom's actions enable dad to continue, it really bums the kids out.

I don't think he'll ever change. I think the best thing you can do is continue to encourage him to do things with his son, but pretty much expect him to keep falling back off the wagon....because he's just not into it.

Sad how many dad's are like this. It is nice to see that you care enough to try and fix things for the sake of your kid.


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## mace17

Tulsy, thank you for your perspective. I didn't realize when I first met him that he had been an uninvolved father with his first 2 kids too. He spent a lot of time with his younger daughter at the time, but in retrospect I think it was mostly because he was still mad at her mom for leaving him and he was trying to get her to like him more that her mom. What you said really hit home - I don't want my son to resent me someday, even though I try to be a mom and dad to him I know he realizes that his dad doesn't really like doing things with him and that will eventually cause resentment. He went through a stage last year where he kept saying he hated daddy, and it was because daddy never did anything with him. Hubby has tried to do a little better since then, and either it has worked or my son has just accepted it because he doesn't say that anymore. When he does try to do things with our son, it always seems to end up going bad since he is very demanding and my son ends up getting upset. I really want him to have a good relationship with his dad but I don't know how to make that happen anymore.


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## agreenbough

Your son already said he's glad he's a boy because women do all the work - your hysband has already affected him in a very negative way.


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## mace17

Today is a good example of the kind of thing that really makes me mad. My hubby usually gets home earlier on Fridays, while I work until 4 every day. So again today, he gets home probably at 2 or 3 and goes to sleep. Our son is at daycare, which I pay by the hour, but he never thinks to go get him if he gets home early. And why should he, since I pay the bill? And if I say something about it and ask why he didn't go pick our son up, he will say something like he didn't know he was supposed to, or didn't know what his schedule was today. If he cared and paid attention he would know, and if he wasn't sure, he could call me and ask! Sorry just had to vent.


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## A Bit Much

mace17 said:


> Today is a good example of the kind of thing that really makes me mad. My hubby usually gets home earlier on Fridays, while I work until 4 every day. So again today, he gets home probably at 2 or 3 and goes to sleep. Our son is at daycare, which I pay by the hour, but he never thinks to go get him if he gets home early. And why should he, since I pay the bill? And if I say something about it and ask why he didn't go pick our son up, he will say something like he didn't know he was supposed to, or didn't know what his schedule was today. If he cared and paid attention he would know, and if he wasn't sure, he could call me and ask! Sorry just had to vent.


No, he's the type of man you need to instruct to do things like this. You are only frustrating yourself expecting him to 'know' what he should do. Whether he wants to be involved or not, if you want him to jump in you need to tell him when you need him for stuff like this.


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## mace17

A Bit Much said:


> No, he's the type of man you need to instruct to do things like this. You are only frustrating yourself expecting him to 'know' what he should do. Whether he wants to be involved or not, if you want him to jump in you need to tell him when you need him for stuff like this.


Yes you are probably right, I usually do give him explicit instructions on anything that has to do with our son, but this Friday situation has happened so many times. And sometimes even when I ask him to pick him up from daycare, he will just go home and go to sleep instead.


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## A Bit Much

mace17 said:


> Yes you are probably right, I usually do give him explicit instructions on anything that has to do with our son, but this Friday situation has happened so many times. And sometimes even when I ask him to pick him up from daycare, he will just go home and go to sleep instead.


Well of course. Since his behavior is predictable you should anticipate his actions so to save yourself grief. Don't let it upset you, he's going to do his own thing and you know it ahead of time.


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## mace17

A Bit Much said:


> Well of course. Since his behavior is predictable you should anticipate his actions so to save yourself grief. Don't let it upset you, he's going to do his own thing and you know it ahead of time.


This could be why he never answers his phone when he gets done with work early, he's probably afraid I'll ask him to do something.


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## mace17

Since reading all the responses here and other threads, I have actually realized something about myself. One of you asked why I married my H knowing he really didn't like kids and was uninvolved. My previous husband had molested my daughter, and I guess subconsciously I figured that I would not have to worry about that ever happening with H because he did not like my daughter at all and could hardly stand to be in the same room as her. Yes, he was rather cruel and demanding to her for the 4 years she was still at home, but even she felt safe that he would never try to molest her. I guess I understand the why a little bit better now, and thank you to all of you that made me think and dig a little deeper.


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## turnera

mace17 said:


> H usually sits and watches tv or plays games on the computer. Once in awhile I can get him to come along so we can do stuff as a family, but usually we end up cutting things short because he is complaining about something. So its just easier to take my son to do stuff myself. I always thought dads would play baseball with their sons and teach them the game, but in my house, that's all my job too. Now I'm working on teaching him golf and in a few years I'll take him hunting.


 Why be married?


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## mace17

turnera said:


> Why be married?


Good question, guess I was raised to think that it's the right thing to do instead of "living in sin".


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## turnera

Or...you could just be without that particular person who causes you pain and brings nothing to the marriage. That's more what I was asking.


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## mace17

True, but oh well I am married so I guess I just have to make the best of it.


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## turnera

Or you could look at ways to change the dynamics of the marriage so you BOTH are getting what you want. I'm not trying to dis you, just point out you can make changes.


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## mace17

I know, some things have to change but I am a non-confrontational person and it's hard for me to rock the boat and challenge the status quo.


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## Running Mom

mace17 said:


> True, but oh well I am married so I guess I just have to make the best of it.





mace17 said:


> I know, some things have to change but I am a non-confrontational person and it's hard for me to rock the boat and challenge the status quo.


Disclaimer: I'm new here and I certainly don't have a perfect marriage. But, these two quotes really bother me. You have a right be happy in a marriage. You don't have to "make the best of it." You deserve a healthy relationship. I'm not a confrontational person either but I have learned to be when it comes to my husband. I want to be married to him but I also want to be happy, so I had to overcome my fear of confrontation.


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## turnera

Remember that your husband - if he really does love you - WANTS you to be happy. Also remember that men are notoriously bad about understanding women AND about reading our minds. We really DO have to tell them the truth about what we want. I just made a list this morning of what I want my H to take care of today, because it's just not his nature to be that organized. He appreciates it. I'll bet your H will appreciate you helping him make you happy.

And if he doesn't, then you may need to reevaluate the marriage.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

mace17 said:


> Since reading all the responses here and other threads, I have actually realized something about myself. One of you asked why I married my H knowing he really didn't like kids and was uninvolved. My previous husband had molested my daughter, and I guess subconsciously I figured that I would not have to worry about that ever happening with H because he did not like my daughter at all and could hardly stand to be in the same room as her. Yes, he was rather cruel and demanding to her for the 4 years she was still at home, but even she felt safe that he would never try to molest her. I guess I understand the why a little bit better now, and thank you to all of you that made me think and dig a little deeper.


So, instead you forced her to live with a man who hated her. Awesome. That was very, very selfish of you, sorry. Now you are subjecting your son to the same thing, your husband resents him. WHY would you do this to your children? We are supposed to PROTECT our kids! You staying with this man is only going to cause damage to your son, so if you wont leave for you, then leave for him.


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## mace17

3Xnocharm said:


> So, instead you forced her to live with a man who hated her. Awesome. That was very, very selfish of you, sorry. Now you are subjecting your son to the same thing, your husband resents him. WHY would you do this to your children? We are supposed to PROTECT our kids! You staying with this man is only going to cause damage to your son, so if you wont leave for you, then leave for him.


I guess I hadn't thought about it that way, I wanted my son to have his father around and my daughter felt safe even though she was pissed off at him most of the time. I figured she was almost 18 and would be an adult soon, while my son was just a baby and had his whole life ahead of him. I know I've made some bad decisions, but I was trying to do the best thing for at least one of my kids and I didn't know his attitude would extend to his own child too.


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## mace17

I know I haven't always made the right decisions, but I have always tried to do the right thing for my kids. I have tried to protect them, but it doesn't always work out that way. There are so many hidden dangers that you can't always anticipate them all.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

mace17 said:


> I know I haven't always made the right decisions, but I have always tried to do the right thing for my kids. I have tried to protect them, but it doesn't always work out that way. There are so many hidden dangers that you can't always anticipate them all.


Some people have to learn to focus on other people more;

But I think you have to learn to work from you own strenght, your own interest more.

No More Mr. Nice Guy is the way for you. I don't know if there is a female version somewhere, but you can use this to start putting yourself on the map first.

Then you can help your children and your husband even better, on the side, because you will feel stronger.


----------



## turnera

The Dance Of Anger is a good, quick read that may help you. My therapist recommends it. In fact, she just told me to go back and reread it. And remember, I'm in a similar situation to you.


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## mace17

turnera said:


> The Dance Of Anger is a good, quick read that may help you. My therapist recommends it. In fact, she just told me to go back and reread it. And remember, I'm in a similar situation to you.


I will have to look for that - thanks for the recommendation.


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## mace17

Last night, I came home from a trip to the store to find my son crying on the sofa with his knee bleeding. Apparently I am the only person in the house who knows how to put a bandaid on. After I cleaned it up and put a bandaid on, he informed me he was starving, and I said didn't daddy give you anything to eat yet? Of course the answer was no, but H had microwaved something for himself. This morning, I got sick of seeing the card my son gave daddy for Father's Day sitting by the bathroom sink where it's been since June, and I finally threw it away since obviously he doesn't care about it.


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## mace17

And tonight, while my son was at his Kung Fu class, one of the adult students who was there for the next class told me how good my son was getting at this and said your husband must be really proud of him. I just stuttered and didn't know what to say, I said he has only been there to watch maybe 2 times in the year and a half he's been going and he doesn't say anything about it so I have no idea. Kinda hurt.


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## turnera

You get what you accept, mace. Only now it's affecting your son, too.


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## mace17

Tried to set some boundaries tonight, H paid a bill from the wrong account....again - and of course it went negative and got an NSF fee. So he asked me to help him figure it out and I said sorry but you are an adult, take responsibility and figure it out. Hope it works and doesn't backfire on me.


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## mace17

And yes he got pissed at me so I ended up fixing it anyway - I am so weak.


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## turnera

Baby steps. Just speaking up is a great first step.


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## mace17

Thank you tunera, I feel weak because I have in but the account that it came out of is one that I use and I don't line being negative in it. Self preservation I guess.


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## turnera

Nothing wrong with taking care of your financials.


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## Is It Just Me

I will just say that in my opinion, you really need to divorce this man because he seems to provide absolutely nothing positive in the lives of you and your children. I don't see him ever changing.

Then, you really need to regularly see a psychologist for therapy to get to the root of why you are so afraid of being alone. You have been married three times total and currently to a man who not only ignores and emotionally abuses you, but who does the same to your children.


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## mace17

I am not afraid to be alone, I would rather be alone.


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## turnera

Then take the legal steps to do so.


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## Is It Just Me

mace17 said:


> I am not afraid to be alone...




Sorry, but your past and current actions are not matching your words.


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## mace17

Honestly, I'm afraid to go through an ugly court process again and take the chamber of losing my son. I went through that with my ex and his scare tactics worked. I don't want to put me or my son through that. If I knew I could win and get child support I'd do it in a heartbeat because I know he doesn't care.


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## mace17

I really don't even care about the child support, it would just be nice to not worry about my next job or a second job


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## turnera

What does he have to do with worrying about a job?


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## mace17

Sorry I guess that wasn't very clear. While I already have a good job that pays pretty well, I had to go get a second job as a waitress because I just can't afford everything I have to pay. Part of it is because he doesn't help with money and bills much, especially anything to do with our son. Of course, the second job means I'm gone a lot especially on weekends, and he doesn't like that much either. If I was single, even if I didn't get child support, I would be farther ahead because I wouldn't have so many bills to pay.


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## mace17

His latest thing is "forgetting" his wallet - he will say we are going out to eat or going grocery shopping but when we get there he's forgotten his wallet. Of course I pay then, but it's getting kind of old.


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## turnera

Pick up his wallet and bring it with you.

Why are you going out with him in the first place?


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## mace17

We went to help his daughter with moving something and then he wanted to take us out to eat, but no wallet. So I said let's go to the grocery store instead it's cheaper and we can get more food there. I made him shop like a poor person, only generic and store brand, and if it's not absolutely necessary don't get it - he didn't like it at all.


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## annet

You are not being unreasonable at all.


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## mace17

We finally sat down and had a long honest talk. He admitted that he's not a very good father, and wasn't to his other kids either. He said that's the way his father was and it's all he knows. I suggested marriage counseling, and he didn't exactly say no, but he did say he didn't think it would help because he didn't know any other way to be a father and wouldn't be able to learn. He said that although it was the last thing he wanted, it would probably be for the best if I took our son and left him. So I don't know what to think. At least he understands why I've been upset and resentful, but he doesn't seem to be willing to do anything about it. At least we talked and he admitted he had a problem, so it's a start.


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## 3Xnocharm

mace17 said:


> We finally sat down and had a long honest talk. He admitted that he's not a very good father, and wasn't to his other kids either. He said that's the way his father was and it's all he knows. I suggested marriage counseling, and he didn't exactly say no, but he did say he didn't think it would help because he didn't know any other way to be a father and wouldn't be able to learn. He said that although it was the last thing he wanted, it would probably be for the best if I took our son and left him. So I don't know what to think. At least he understands why I've been upset and resentful, but he doesn't seem to be willing to do anything about it. At least we talked and he admitted he had a problem, so it's a start.


Yes, he admitted he had a problem, but at the same time has made it pretty darn clear that he intends to do NOTHING about it. Take his advice and get yourself and your poor son out of there. The man is toxic to your son, do you really want him to continue growing up in the presence of a man who wants nothing to do with him?? The kid deserves MUCH better!


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## A Bit Much

mace17 said:


> We finally sat down and had a long honest talk. He admitted that he's not a very good father, and wasn't to his other kids either. He said that's the way his father was and it's all he knows. I suggested marriage counseling, and he didn't exactly say no, but he did say he didn't think it would help because he didn't know any other way to be a father and wouldn't be able to learn. He said that although it was the last thing he wanted, it would probably be for the best if I took our son and left him. So I don't know what to think. At least he understands why I've been upset and resentful, but he doesn't seem to be willing to do anything about it. At least we talked and he admitted he had a problem, so it's a start.


It almost was a start. It was an acknowledgement. There is a difference. Starts have endings and lots of stuff in the middle. He didn't offer any effort on his part to change the dynamic he's very aware of. What he did was offer you a solution... leave him. Instead of working on himself, he would rather you and your son pack a bag and leave him. 

Take him up on his offer. He's not willing to work with you on this.


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## turnera

He has told you the truth: he doesn't want you bad enough to work at it.

Believe him.


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## mace17

Maybe I did get through a little, H actually came to watch our son at Kung Fu tonight. He hasn't been here to watch him in over a year.


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## turnera

If he is still there 4 weeks from now, I may believe it.


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## Is It Just Me

A Bit Much said:


> He didn't offer any effort on his part to change the dynamic he's very aware of. What he did was offer you a solution... leave him. Instead of working on himself, he would rather you and your son pack a bag and leave him.
> 
> Take him up on his offer. He's not willing to work with you on this.



Agree.


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## See_Listen_Love

mace17 said:


> We finally sat down and had a long honest talk. He admitted that he's not a very good father, and wasn't to his other kids either. He said that's the way his father was and it's all he knows. I suggested marriage counseling, and he didn't exactly say no, but he did say he didn't think it would help because he didn't know any other way to be a father and wouldn't be able to learn. *He said that although it was the last thing he wanted, it would probably be for the best if I took our son and left him.* So I don't know what to think. At least he understands why I've been upset and resentful, but he doesn't seem to be willing to do anything about it. At least we talked and he admitted he had a problem, so it's a start.


I think he is aware of his failing as a father and hates it. But he sees no solution to better himself. He is in a bad place mentally, he needs help.

You made some progress, maybe he can get hope somewhere that he can grow and develop. Than you will profit also. Keep probing and testing what works!


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## mace17

See_Listen_Love said:


> I think he is aware of his failing as a father and hates it. But he sees no solution to better himself. He is in a bad place mentally, he needs help.
> 
> You made some progress, maybe he can get hope somewhere that he can grow and develop. Than you will profit also. Keep probing and testing what works!


I did try positive reinforcement - I told him how proud and happy I was that he came to the Kung Fu class so I hope that helps. The one thing I can't figure out how to do is get him to help with some expenses. I refuse to ask for money, but I tell him things like the balance at daycare is up to $200, or that our son needs some school clothes, and I keep hoping that he will offer to help out with some of this. I suppose I should just come right out and ask, but I want him to do it because he wants to help not because I told him too. In the past when I have actually asked for money from him and taken it, he will bring it up forever after that and I don't like to hear it. But the biggest thing is that I want our son to know that his dad cares, and if I still have to pay for everything I don't care.


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## A Bit Much

mace17 said:


> I did try positive reinforcement - I told him how proud and happy I was that he came to the Kung Fu class so I hope that helps. The one thing I can't figure out how to do is get him to help with some expenses. I refuse to ask for money, but I tell him things like the balance at daycare is up to $200, or that our son needs some school clothes, and I keep hoping that he will offer to help out with some of this. I suppose I should just come right out and ask, but I want him to do it because he wants to help not because I told him too. In the past when I have actually asked for money from him and taken it, he will bring it up forever after that and I don't like to hear it. But the biggest thing is that I want our son to know that his dad cares, and if I still have to pay for everything I don't care.


It sounds ridiculous to have to 'ask' for support financially for the mans own child, but if you want it that is exactly what you should do.

Type up an expense report and give it to him... whatever you need to do so that he's completely clued in. Tell him you need X amount of $ to cover day care, kung fu, whatever the child is needing. He can give you a lump sum every month or he can take a bill on for himself.

Yes he SHOULD volunteer it, BUT he won't. He's not THAT guy.


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## bunny23

mace17 said:


> He is a good man other than those 2 issues though, I keep wondering if I'm just expecting too much. Most men I know don't like kids, and they definitely don't like giving their wives money for anything, so maybe its normal.


What?

No... most men will complain that women like shopping way too much, but I don't think most men hate paying for basics like electricity. He is not "giving you" anything, it's ALREADY yours in the eyes of the LAW.. and quite frankly morally.

Most men do like kids.. idk where you get this idea from?

You said he is not controlling etc.. yeah he is.. he is kind of abusing your kid by alienating him and not letting him form normal attachments. It's called neglect to some degree.

You need to put a stop to this. I don't even know how you would have a normal loving relationship with a man like this? Do you guys lie there at night and have pillow talk about all your dreams for your family?

I can't imagine how you would.

I will assume this man has A LOT of issues, and I would make it CLEAR to him- start going to counselling and we are opening JOINT accounts or I will leave and take what I need to raise our son. PERIOD.

And get a lawyer.

This is insane and NOT normal at all.

P.S. Does your tax guy think this is insane? Who gets the tax breaks? I would hope that you are keeping those for a rainy day


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## 3Xnocharm

Originally Posted by mace17 View Post
"He is a good man other than those 2 issues though, I keep wondering if I'm just expecting too much. Most men I know don't like kids, and they definitely don't like giving their wives money for anything, so maybe its normal." 

I'm going to be blunt here...

This is ridiculous! Why dont you STOP making excuses for him and see him for what he is?? A selfish jerk! You need to stop being so selfish and leave this man for the sake of you son! You are staying with him because YOU are too weak to leave, and your son is the one paying the price for it! Its bad enough that your daughter, who had already been traumatized, was forced to live with this jerk when she didnt like him, dont force the same thing on your son! Your son is better off with as limited time with him as possible, because I guarantee that he KNOWS his dad doesnt give a damn.


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## A Bit Much

Good man my ass.

If that's what you have to tell yourself for justification then have at it, but nothing you've said on here about him indicates he's a 'good' man.

What you want is for him to be a good father. He isn't. Not only that but he's not a good man to you by helping you raise your child together. He's distant. He's into himself. He doesn't like sharing. What's good about any of that?


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## JustSomeGuyWho

The men I know that don't like kids, don't have them. You would think that at the office, the conversations would revolve around sports or other guy stuff .... no, for those that have kids, that is what they talk about most often. On mondays, our entire department starts out a meeting with everybody sharing what they are grateful for. It is a large group dominated by men. #1 gratitude is kids by far. #2 is wives and family. I personally love kids and my daughters mean the world to me.

That said, while I attend all my kids events at school, when we have parent teacher night there is usually me, a couple other guys and about 20 mommies. Go figure.

_Posted via *Topify* using Android_


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## mace17

I appreciate all your responses. I've always been taught that the only reason to break up a marriage is because of unfaithfulness or if there is physical abuse. So I guess I have a hard time with being told to leave him because he's not an involved father. Somehow I don't think it's a good enough reason. It might be, but that's just not how I was raised. Sorry if I bring up the same stuff and ask the same questions, but I guess I don't feel like these issues are enough. I'd rather fix what's wrong first, I want my son to have a father. Call me crazy but I want to do it right this time and not give up and fix the problems. I am a little surprised that you guys, who always encourage couples to work things out, keep saying to get out. At this point, I don't know what would be worse for my son, having a father who's emotionally unavailable or not having one around on a full time basis at all.


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## mace17

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> The men I know that don't like kids, don't have them. You would think that at the office, the conversations would revolve around sports or other guy stuff .... no, for those that have kids, that is what they talk about most often. On mondays, our entire department starts out a meeting with everybody sharing what they are grateful for. It is a large group dominated by men. #1 gratitude is kids by far. #2 is wives and family. I personally love kids and my daughters mean the world to me.
> 
> That said, while I attend all my kids events at school, when we have parent teacher night there is usually me, a couple other guys and about 20 mommies. Go figure.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using Android_


Sounds about right - I am proud of you for being involved with your kids. To me, that's an awesome dad and you are doing great. Not many dads do that.


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## 3Xnocharm

mace17 said:


> I appreciate all your responses. I've always been taught that the only reason to break up a marriage is because of unfaithfulness or if there is physical abuse. So I guess I have a hard time with being told to leave him because he's not an involved father. Somehow I don't think it's a good enough reason. It might be, but that's just not how I was raised. Sorry if I bring up the same stuff and ask the same questions, but I guess I don't feel like these issues are enough. I'd rather fix what's wrong first, I want my son to have a father. Call me crazy but I want to do it right this time and not give up and fix the problems. I am a little surprised that you guys, who always encourage couples to work things out, keep saying to get out. At this point, I don't know what would be worse for my son, having a father who's emotionally unavailable or not having one around on a full time basis at all.


Your husband isnt just "emotionally unavailable" to your son. He does not even support him FINANCIALLY. He cares so little about the boy's well being that he wont even do the basic duty of providing for him! I dont see how you stomach this, I really dont. Your son is learning that THIS is how father's behave toward their kids. Do you want him to grow up and be this kind of father to his own kids?


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## mace17

No, but I want him to have a father. He won't know when he grows up who paid for what, and by then H might have pulled his head out of his a**. I just don't want him to think he wasn't good enough for his father. 
I do have counseling set up for later this month for my son. If I discover that his emotional issues are because of his dad and his dad is not willing to change, damn right I'll be out of there.


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## See_Listen_Love

Most posters react a bit harsh because of experience with many threads. But I think you are right to try to mend a truly broken situation, so I would like if more people tried to help you first with what you need now.

That said, the best results recorded in many threads are those that take a quite confrontational approach.

Since it is very hard to get through to this man, you need to probe more painful to him. 

Maybe you can take a budget approach to get him to deliver a monthly amount of his paycheck to a new common account. You put your part into it also. You pay from that account all your family expenses.

The argument of needing and getting a family budget and having rules may lure him into taking his responsibility on this issue.

You must be very deliberate in your approach, though friendly and careful. The target is to get him in action and contribute. If he is not sensitive to this, stay firm and tell him is has to be done. Later on give him warning that there maybe a final consequence if he is not taking care of his obligations.

Because as it is now it's not sustainable, you have to be prepared eventually to go further on you own. Don't threat with that immediately, but let your deliberate actions and firm stance make him think about your new attitude.

my 0.02,


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## See_Listen_Love

BTW:

The Kung Fu seems to me a good stimulans for creating better physical and mental health, the learning of controlling body and mind will in my opinon contribute to bettering your situation. Maybe he could take up something like that also?


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## 3Xnocharm

Your son still has a father even if they dont live together. A male being present in the house does not a dad make.


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## Starstarfish

> I just don't want him to think he wasn't good enough for his father.


This is going to be harsh, but he probably feels like this already. He's already begun to ask you why Dad isn't around, why he isn't interested, why he doesn't care. 

My FIL was around my husband's entire life, he was a "physically present father." And yet - they have 0% bond whatsoever, he could never discuss problems with his father, they had no mutual activities, they spent no real time around each other. FIL had his own interests, and the expectation was that Mom would keep the kids (H has 5 brothers) from interfering. 

When at 32, my husband finally wrote a letter to his father explaining how he was upset about their lack of relationship, guess what FIL responded? The same line - this is how my father was too me, this is how I am, I can't change. Now they don't really speak at all. 

Trust me your son is already feeling the slow burn of realizing his father doesn't really want anything to do with him. It's not about money, its about legitimate desire, about drive, about joy. He doesn't come home and he's happy to see his child. Trust me, your son notices.



> I'd rather fix what's wrong first, I want my son to have a father. Call me crazy but I want to do it right this time and not give up and fix the problems. I


Sure, you can go zen and decide that this is better than nothing, but I've just got to ask, besides a physical presence, what exactly is this guy bringing to the table? He's not financially or emotionally involved, and doesn't want to be.


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## turnera

It's worse to be with a dad who pretends you aren't there than to live apart from him; at least then, your son can pretend it's because of the distance.


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## 3Xnocharm

turnera said:


> it's worse to be with a dad who pretends you aren't there than to live apart from him; at least then, your son can pretend it's because of the distance.


exactly!!


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## A Bit Much

mace17 said:


> No, but I want him to have a father. He won't know when he grows up who paid for what, and by then H might have pulled his head out of his a**. I just don't want him to think he wasn't good enough for his father.
> I do have counseling set up for later this month for my son. If I discover that his emotional issues are because of his dad and his dad is not willing to change, damn right I'll be out of there.


While it's well and good that you want to stand your ground and dig in your heels, you are missing one very valid and important point.

Your husband told you out of his own mouth to leave. He didn't say, honey I'm sorry, I think I'm messed up and we should go to counseling. He didn't say, I want to change. 



> We finally sat down and had a long honest talk. He admitted that he's not a very good father, and wasn't to his other kids either. He said that's the way his father was and it's all he knows. *I suggested marriage counseling, and he didn't exactly say no, but he did say he didn't think it would help because he didn't know any other way to be a father and wouldn't be able to learn. He said that although it was the last thing he wanted, it would probably be for the best if I took our son and left him.*


If my husband told me the above I wouldn't stick around and wait and see if he changed. I would leave and if he came around doing exactly the things he should for our child consistently (longer than 6 months) I would reconsider going back and starting over. The man goes to ONE Kung Fu lesson and now he's trying??? 

Has he offered any $ toward day care? How about picking the boy up and dropping him at Kung Fu? Really has anything changed since your first post here? It's all on you. This relationship and everything with it is all on you and I'm here to tell you that unless you have the full participation of your husband with what you want to do (hold your family together) you will not be successful. He has to want it just as much as you do.


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## turnera

He is flat out telling you that 'this' isn't what he signed up for and he wants to be free. That if you want to stick around and make things convenient for him - as long as you don't expect anything from him - that's fine, but if not, it won't bother him a bit to see you guys go. 

Listen to him.


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## Is It Just Me

Is It Just Me said:


> I will just say that in my opinion, you really need to divorce this man because he seems to provide absolutely nothing positive in the lives of you and your children. I don't see him ever changing.
> 
> Then, you really need to regularly see a psychologist for therapy to get to the root of why you are so afraid of being alone. You have been married three times total and currently to a man who not only ignores and emotionally abuses you, but who does the same to your children.




I'm quoting myself because I still stand by what I said above, as none of your subsequent posts have given me any reason to think otherwise. And your current (and future) situations will never be any different until you acknowledge that YOU are the common factor in them and that instead of trying to change other people's (like your current husband) behavior and mentality, what you should be doing is trying to change your own.


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## bunny23

Well I don't have any kids and yes, I was married to an abusive man.. I read my comment again, and I am sorry if it came off harsh.. I didn't mean for it to.

Problem is MOST people won't just change if you talk to them.. it doesn't seem like your husband is.

I have experienced financial abuse and it is a form of control.. now he may have control issues- in his OWN finances... but that is effecting your child.

You really need to decide if this is healthy for a child. I don't have kids but I can assume if he is severely neglecting his duty as a father right now... it's the same as if you two got divorced and you raised your son alone (with child support).
The only difference is that your son sees this DAILY.. it's not like your husband moved on and lives somewhere else, where you could take your son to therapy and have him work on issues of abandonment.
He sees this DAILY.. and is probably confused why mommy keeps trying so hard to stay and make things work.

Marriage is a piece of paper. People who get cheated on decide to reconcile, people stay with drug users after they get sober etc.

Reasons for divorce are MANY. I suggest the D card ONLY because you keep speaking to him about this and it isn't changing. So you either do what it takes (aka FORCE him to get counselling and realize this is a serious issue) or you keep the same life where you beg for him to spend more time with your son and give you money for bills.

Did this man grow up in a poor home? Maybe he is hoarding money for some reason.. whatever it is you OWE it to your son and marriage (if you want a chance) to use an option to D only as a way to JOLT him into action, MC etc..

People don't change the negative things in their lives because they are "okay" and "comfortable" UNLESS those comfortable things make you VERY uncomfortable to the point where it's more painful not to change. Human nature is to not change the status quo.

This is a very strange situation but I really believe that you love your son and want what is best for him, but you are letting him be neglected and rejected daily by someone he calls dad... and yet you and dad apparently have a good relationship.

As a kid I would be wondering (maybe later in life) why my mother stayed, why she exposed me to this, why did she love my father and support him even if he didn't love me?

If you want to work on your marriage and your husbands relationship with your son you have to put in all on the table and tell him this cannot continue. You can support him while he deals with his issues, but he is a grown man, with a child, and he needs to pull himself together. Period.


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## mace17

I understand what you are all saying and I appreciate it. It's hard, because just when I decide I need to put my foot down and tell him I won't tolerate some things, he does something nice and surprises me by doing stuff with his son and seems like they are bonding. So it's confusing. I want to do the right thing but it's so hard to tell what that is. Hopefully the counseling my son will be going to will shed some light on the situation.


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## bunny23

Yeah I think it will be a bit of back and forth like that... 
but if he is not constantly moving towards diving your son attention then what you can do is have a "contract" in place. So there is accountability if he is not moving forward.

I would also ask if your son could have individual counselling (I think he is right?) that maybe dad and even you could do some family counselling?

Your husband has to get IC also.

We don't mean to demonize your hubby, we are just a sounding board for you.

I know it's confusing.. I can't promise it gets better.. I am 1 year out of an abusive marriage, on the brink of starting a nasty divorce and I'm confused about filing a Order of Protection. Logically I need it, mentally there is something still making me "feel bad"


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## 3Xnocharm

mace17 said:


> I understand what you are all saying and I appreciate it. It's hard, because just when I decide I need to put my foot down and tell him I won't tolerate some things, he does something nice and surprises me by doing stuff with his son and seems like they are bonding. So it's confusing. I want to do the right thing but it's so hard to tell what that is. Hopefully the counseling my son will be going to will shed some light on the situation.


You have to realize that this is a pattern of manipulative behavior. It took me a few years to realize it with my verbally abusive ex H. He would blow up, give me the silent treatment for days, then act all normal like nothing happened. I was always so glad to have "him" back, that I didnt really realize what was happening. I finally realized that this pattern was never, ever going to change, and I could no longer handle that, so I left.


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## turnera

mace17 said:


> I understand what you are all saying and I appreciate it. It's hard, because just when I decide I need to put my foot down and tell him I won't tolerate some things, he does something nice and surprises me by doing stuff with his son and seems like they are bonding. So it's confusing. I want to do the right thing but it's so hard to tell what that is. Hopefully the counseling my son will be going to will shed some light on the situation.


Straight out of Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men (Lundy Bancroft). They watch you. They gauge your 'willingness' at all times. And any time you seem to be about to stand up on your own two feet and defy them, they spin the wheel and pull out a different behavior, to knock you back down, to keep you guessing, to keep you wondering if you're just being picky. It's what Users and Abusers do, mace.

Why not, instead, determine what YOU would need in a great relationship, and speak up if you aren't getting THAT, instead of the crumbs he throws?


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## mace17

turnera said:


> Straight out of Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men (Lundy Bancroft). They watch you. They gauge your 'willingness' at all times. And any time you seem to be about to stand up on your own two feet and defy them, they spin the wheel and pull out a different behavior, to knock you back down, to keep you guessing, to keep you wondering if you're just being picky. It's what Users and Abusers do, mace.
> 
> Why not, instead, determine what YOU would need in a great relationship, and speak up if you aren't getting THAT, instead of the crumbs he throws?


I'm starting to believe you are right. I never thought of him as being controlling at all, but some recent comments he's made have made me wonder. I have lost around 30 lbs. in the last year and a half. Before I lost the weight, he would point out that I was really getting chunky. Now that I have lost it and look better than I have in years, he says I've lost too much weight and I don't look good, and I don't even have an a** anymore. I'm wondering if this isn't just to make me feel insecure so I'll be greatful he is still with me. It's not working, but it makes me wonder if that's what he's trying to do.


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## turnera

Sounds like it to me.


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## A Bit Much

mace17 said:


> I'm starting to believe you are right. I never thought of him as being controlling at all, but some recent comments he's made have made me wonder. I have lost around 30 lbs. in the last year and a half. Before I lost the weight, he would point out that I was really getting chunky. Now that I have lost it and look better than I have in years, he says I've lost too much weight and I don't look good, and I don't even have an a** anymore. I'm wondering if this isn't just to make me feel insecure so I'll be greatful he is still with me. It's not working, but it makes me wonder if that's what he's trying to do.


Maybe he needs reminding of his previous comments. Then you would be calling him on it. "You don't know WHAT you want. So I'm going to do what feels good to ME."

I would say that anyone who puts their spouse down either in person or to others doesn't respect that spouse. They do it to feel superior.


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## mace17

I really don't care anymore, I feel good and I really don't care what anybody thinks of my weight. I did it for me, not for anybody else. Its not the only thing he's ever put me down about, but I am for the most part happy with myself no matter what anybody else thinks so I'm not going to let it bother me.


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## mace17

So I talked to my son tonight....I asked him if dad a doing better and spending time with him since he seems like he's trying, son says no not really. I asked if he thinks dad is proud of him for all the awesome stuff he can do, son says no I don't think he's proud if me at all, I don't think he even likes me.


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## turnera

That's horrible.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

mace17 said:


> So I talked to my son tonight....I asked him if dad a doing better and spending time with him since he seems like he's trying, son says no not really. I asked if he thinks dad is proud of him for all the awesome stuff he can do, son says no I don't think he's proud if me at all, I don't think he even likes me.


Wow, I know that has to be heartbreaking to hear. I'm sorry.

_Posted via *Topify* using Android_


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## 3Xnocharm

Well, there is your answer, its exactly what I feared for him.  This hurts me to read. Kids are much more perceptive than people give them credit for.


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## mace17

My son will be starting IC for his anxiety issues later this month, it will be interesting to see how that goes. I hope they can help him feel more confident in himself so he doesn't always feel like he has to be perfect.


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## turnera

That will never happen when he is around a father who doesn't want or like him.

My dad married my mom who already had a son. He never really took to my brother, so it's a pretty similar situation. My brother KNEW it. It has hounded him his whole life. He's the most miserable person on this planet. Suicide attempts, 20 years in therapy, couldn't even be happy on his wedding day (after 20 years of dead-end relationships). My dad either ignored him, belittled him, or forced him to work his butt off like a servant. That's what your son has to look forward to if you stay with this man.


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## A Bit Much

mace17 said:


> My son will be starting IC for his anxiety issues later this month, it will be interesting to see how that goes. I hope they can help him feel more confident in himself so he doesn't always feel like he has to be perfect.


How is his confidence and anxiety going to get better if the major figure in his life as a male role model doesn't notice? Get in your sons head for a minute and realize that the person he is trying to identify with (his father) acts like he can't stand who he (your son) is.


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## mace17

Maybe they can show him ways to realize it's not his fault and to cope with it.


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## turnera

So you'd rather put this on your son's shoulders than stand up to your husband?


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## A Bit Much

mace17 said:


> Maybe they can show him ways to realize it's not his fault and to cope with it.


That kind of reasoning doesn't come until he's an adult and has a better understanding of relationships. At his age he's only capable of knowing 2 things. My parents love me, my parents don't love me. He told you out of his own mouth what he thinks his father feels. Is it true? Can you refute it? What examples has he been subject to that show him the opposite is true?

Don't let a therapist 'try' to do YOUR job as his mother. Step up and take the reigns here before this situation becomes more damaging. Ignoring what your kid is telling you and putting it on someone else to take care of is a sad way to handle this.


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## 3Xnocharm

turnera said:


> So you'd rather put this on your son's shoulders than stand up to your husband?


She seems more interested in staying married, instead of doing the selfless thing and leaving this man for the sake of her son. Sorry to be blunt, but that is how this looks to me.


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## turnera

mace, I'm sure you're feeling ganged up on right now. But we really are trying to help you. It's not always clear to us that we have options. But you do. The world isn't going to end if you take a stand on this. The worst that can happen is your H decides having a family is too much work and he leaves. But your son is your responsibility for the next 15 or so years and who he will be for the rest of his life depends on what he's exposed to now. Focus on him right now, do whatever's right for him (and you know what that involves), and the rest will fall into place.


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## A Bit Much

If the man was a raging alcoholic, or a drug addict or child molester there wouldn't be any hesitation. The subtle emotional damage and abuse isn't a 'good' enough reason to grab the child and run. When you have to do something uncomfortable you can come up with 1000 ways to justify doing nothing.

Mace, the therapy is a HELP, but it isn't the cure to the problem.


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## mace17

Divorce is damaging to children too. In this case, I don't know which is the lesser of 2 evils. Having an uninvolved father is not good for him, but divorce isn't good either. I don't know at this point which scenario would be less damaging for my son. Trust me, if I figure it out I will do it.


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## A Bit Much

mace17 said:


> Divorce is damaging to children too. In this case, I don't know which is the lesser of 2 evils. Having an uninvolved father is not good for him, but divorce isn't good either. I don't know at this point which scenario would be less damaging for my son. Trust me, if I figure it out I will do it.


Divorcing a man that your son feels doesn't notice him wouldn't be as bad as living there with him and being ignored daily. I'm not saying divorce is good. No one here is saying that as a matter of fact. Living like you are isn't doing your son any favors though, even with the crumbs your husband is tossing out. He doesn't want a family. You can't change that. You can't change his mind. His kid certainly isn't changing his mind either.


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## turnera

Go to a therapist WITH your son, and print him out this thread to read. Ask him what he thinks.

My husband has a ton of great qualities. But he has even more bad ones. Negativity, criticism, making us feel bad...DD23 has told me she would often wish I would just move out and take her with me so she didn't have to be around her dad all the time. And that she felt helpless, as even I wouldn't do anything about it, so how could she? It has really messed her up to be in a not-divorced family.


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## karole

turnera said:


> Go to a therapist WITH your son, and print him out this thread to read. Ask him what he thinks.
> 
> My husband has a ton of great qualities. But he has even more bad ones. Negativity, criticism, making us feel bad...DD23 has told me she would often wish I would just move out and take her with me so she didn't have to be around her dad all the time. And that she felt helpless, as even I wouldn't do anything about it, so how could she? It has really messed her up to be in a not-divorced family.


Tunera, I've read lots of negative comments that you have made about your husband on this board, why did you stay with him? Not trying to be judgmental, you always give good advice, just wondering why you didn't heed your own advice as it relates to your husband.


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## 3Xnocharm

turnera said:


> My husband has a ton of great qualities. But he has even more bad ones. Negativity, criticism, making us feel bad...DD23 has told me she would often wish I would just move out and take her with me so she didn't have to be around her dad all the time. And that she felt helpless, as even I wouldn't do anything about it, so how could she? It has really messed her up to be in a not-divorced family.


This was me as a kid, too! I used to pray for my parents to divorce! My dad had anger problems and treated my mother like sh!t, and I hated him for it. She finally did file for divorce when I was 14, it was a happy day for 3 out of the 4 of us!


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## turnera

karole said:


> Tunera, I've read lots of negative comments that you have made about your husband on this board, why did you stay with him? Not trying to be judgmental, you always give good advice, just wondering why you didn't heed your own advice as it relates to your husband.


Because I'm a severely weak person with bad money skills, have been in debt all my adult life, and it was easier to stay than to face his wrath if I tried to leave. Of course now, 35 years into the marriage, I'm finally taking steps I should have taken 25 years ago. But the damage to DD23 is already done.

I think the main reason I come here is to stop other women from doing this wishy washy thing I did, hoping that something would change, that I wouldn't have to step up and be brave.


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## A Bit Much

turnera said:


> Because I'm a severely weak person with bad money skills, have been in debt all my adult life, and it was easier to stay than to face his wrath if I tried to leave. Of course now, 35 years into the marriage, I'm finally taking steps I should have taken 25 years ago. But the damage to DD23 is already done.
> 
> I think the main reason I come here is to stop other women from doing this wishy washy thing I did, hoping that something would change, that I wouldn't have to step up and be brave.


You're one brave and honest woman Turnera. And you are truly a great help to ANYONE here going through this. People need to read your story, and maybe by doing so can AVOID a lot of grief and heartache. Wisdom is a gift, and you definitely have it.


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## turnera

Aww shucks, lol

Thanks.


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## turnera

I like to tell people (assuming they have a mentally healthy parent): Imagine telling your parent what is really going on in your marriage. What would they tell you to do? What would they think of you staying?


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## mace17

I'm not sure if my parents could be considered mentally healthy, but they believe in staying married no matter what, unless there is unfaithfulness involved.


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## turnera

No, that's not healthy. That's saying that ONE of you could end up being the other person's slave, with no power, no thoughts, no rights, if said person believes they have no right to leave.

Look, mace, we get that you don't want to leave this man. That's your choice. But if you choose to stay, either out of fear or out of some misguided belief that it's your 'duty,' you owe it to any children brought into this marriage to stand up for them and PROTECT them from an unhealthy situation. Look up mental abuse. What he is doing to his own son is far worse, and longer lasting, than being hit with a belt. If you're going to stay, you need to dig deep down and find your courage, your backbone, and start MAKING CHANGES in the family dynamics. You owe that to your son if you refuse to leave for him.


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## mace17

turnera said:


> No, that's not healthy. That's saying that ONE of you could end up being the other person's slave, with no power, no thoughts, no rights, if said person believes they have no right to leave.
> 
> Look, mace, we get that you don't want to leave this man. That's your choice. But if you choose to stay, either out of fear or out of some misguided belief that it's your 'duty,' you owe it to any children brought into this marriage to stand up for them and PROTECT them from an unhealthy situation. Look up mental abuse. What he is doing to his own son is far worse, and longer lasting, than being hit with a belt. If you're going to stay, you need to dig deep down and find your courage, your backbone, and start MAKING CHANGES in the family dynamics. You owe that to your son if you refuse to leave for him.


I really don't want to leave him, it's not fear or duty though, more like I believe he can be a good dad if he can just realize that he doesn't have to be like his father was and can make different choices. I realize that he has to want to, but I think he's more a good guy who is really clueless how what he's doing affects his son than cruel or abusive. And of course I do realize he is lazy and selfish. But I am trying to get him to do more with his son and hoping he will realize what an awesome little boy he is. Last night the two of them went to a baseball game and H was honestly surprised that our son was able to sit still and watch the whole game. I think he was impressed, and they actually had a good time. Doing more things like this will be good for both of them and hopefully it will get better.


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## turnera

You can't change someone else. All you can do is change what YOU do.


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## mace17

I did make a point yesterday - H was complaining that the kitchen was messy so I said I'll be happy to clean it in a year or so when I don't need a second job. If you want it done before then I guess you'll have to do it.


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## turnera

VERY good choice.


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## mace17

Thank you. Maybe I will learn something about boundaries after all.


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## lovelifeandwanttoenjoyit

mace17 said:


> Thank you for all your replies so far. H likes to hoard his money - he has thousands of dollars in his bank account and still tells everybody he's broke. He hates to part with his money for any reason, even to pay bills. When we first got together, I took over paying most of the bills becase he would just wait until stuff got shut off, like the phone or electricity, and then finally pay it. We have individual bank accounts, and he is responsible for the mortgage payment and his car payment, both of which I have set up on auto-pay because otherwise he wouldn't pay them either. I take care of all the rest of the bills.
> And yes, he did not want children - we started dating and 5 months later I ended up pregnant even though I was on the pill. I told him and said that I knew he didn't want a kid and that I would be happy to disappear and he would never have to deal with it, but he said if he was going to have kids, he was glad it was with me and seemed happy about it. I still didn't marry him until our son was 2, because I didn't want either of us to do it for the wrong reasons. He said he was thrilled to have a son, but really hasn't been involved with him much. He doesn't even know where our son is during the day when we are at work, since I take care of all that too. So maybe that's it, but I wasn't exactly ready for a child either but I took responsibility for it, and if he didn't want to then he should have left me then and never asked me to marry him.


sorry to hear all of this but I think, not sure if on purpose or not but he is making you pay for getting pregnant...


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## mace17

lovelifeandwanttoenjoyit said:


> sorry to hear all of this but I think, not sure if on purpose or not but he is making you pay for getting pregnant...


You really think so? I have wondered that, but I tried to do the right thing - I told him I was pregnant and gave him the option to just stay out of my life and have nothing to do with the baby. I told him I had a decent job and could take care of it just fine on my own and wouldn't go after him for child support or anything if he just wanted to walk away. He said that he really hadn't wanted any more kids, but that if he was going to have more he was glad it was with me. I asked him if he was sure a couple times during the pregnancy so he could have an out, but he didn't take it. So why would he punish me now? I didn't insist that he stick around or marry me, that was his choice. Well, it was mine to accept the proposal, but I didn't expect it either. So I guess I just don't get it.


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## turnera

Men don't often understand the depth of time and concern you have to give a child - they don't wait patiently while you finish SF or cooking dinner - and so they often resent the baby far more than they expected. 

Why did he leave his first wife?


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## mace17

turnera said:


> Men don't often understand the depth of time and concern you have to give a child - they don't wait patiently while you finish SF or cooking dinner - and so they often resent the baby far more than they expected.
> 
> Why did he leave his first wife?


He left the first one because in his words she was crazy. I guess she did drugs and hung around with a biker gang. He got custody of their daughter, I'm really curious how she survived. The second wife left him for pretty much the same issues I'm having with him. All he did was go to work, come home, and sit in the bedroom watching tv, leaving her to deal with 3 kids (his, hers, and theirs). His side - says she was too demanding and always nagging him and he was miserable so that's why he basically checked out.


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## turnera

So he's a decent person (taking his daughter) but highly chauvinist. He marries to have a woman replace his mother and do all the 'woman stuff.' 

You aren't going to change that about him. You CAN change how you react to it.


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## A Bit Much

Good for him for stepping up for his daughter. Maybe raising her burnt him out on children and child rearing. The expense, the time, all of it may have weighed too heavily on him and he hated it.

He prefers to be checked out and doing his own thing (from what it sounds like).


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## mace17

I guess that could be it, I figured any guy that could step up and raise his daughter must be a good guy. He could be just burnt out, but the daughter he raised is 28 and closer to me than him.


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## mace17

Not sure if this is progress or not, but H has been spending a lot more time with his son lately since I have 2 jobs and am basically working all the time. I'm glad they get to spend more time together and they seem to be getting along and bonding, but H's habits are starting to rub off on our son even more. I looked at my house on Monday morning after having worked basically all weekend and realized dirty dishes are piled up everywhere, books all over the floor, kitchen floor is filthy, dirty clothes, wrappers, and used paper plates all over the living room. H was already at work, but I informed my son that when we got home from work and school he was going to clean up his part of the mess. Of course I got a protest - dad doesn't, why do I have to? - and I told him that I don't care what dad or anybody else does, he is my son and I am trying to teach him to be responsible and that just like at school, you have to pick up after yourself here at home. He was somewhat reluctant but he did help later to pick up.


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## 3Xnocharm

I believe you are fighting a losing battle. Sorry.


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## turnera

That was a great lesson for your son. Good for you. 

I always said I wanted to have 3 sons, so I could raise them to be the exact opposite of someone like your husband, so I could give the world (and three lucky women) the gift of 3 great husbands who WOULDN'T expect the wife to work and still do everything else.


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## mace17

turnera said:


> That was a great lesson for your son. Good for you.
> 
> I always said I wanted to have 3 sons, so I could raise them to be the exact opposite of someone like your husband, so I could give the world (and three lucky women) the gift of 3 great husbands who WOULDN'T expect the wife to work and still do everything else.


I always tell my son that a man is supposed to help his wife or girlfriend and that no job is exclusively "his" or "hers". Right now, he loves helping mommy with just about everything, so I praise him and encourage him as much as possible. Hopefully he will notice that dad doesn't get praised like that.....


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## Moulin

It doesn't sound like he WANTS to be a good husband nor a good dad.

You have to choose if that's acceptable to you and acceptable as a role model for your son. He will grow up thinking this behavior and relationship model is normal. 

What would your advice to your son be if he were married to a woman that behaved like your husband?


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## mace17

Moulin said:


> It doesn't sound like he WANTS to be a good husband nor a good dad.
> 
> You have to choose if that's acceptable to you and acceptable as a role model for your son. He will grow up thinking this behavior and relationship model is normal.
> 
> What would your advice to your son be if he were married to a woman that behaved like your husband?


Honestly, if any friend or family member was married to someone who behaved like my husband, I would encourage them to leave because they are being taken advantage of.


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## mace17

My daughter and her husband just had their first baby (woo hoo I'm a grandma!!!) and I can't help but notice the way my son in law is with his baby daughter. He loves holding her and feeding her and misses her if he has to be away from her, even if it's just me holding her. He changes diapers and is completely in love with her and involved with her life. He says his dad wasn't like that, he drank a lot a a least the child raising up to his wife. So my H's excuse that his dad was his example and he doesn't know anything else is total BS!!!! I have a first hand example of a guy who had an uninvolved father and was totally different with his own. I am so happy that my granddaughter has such a good father, and I don't care that the rest of the family doesn't like him because in my opinion he just proved himself in the most important way possible. I at least got to see for the first time in my life what a good dad is like, and my daughter and granddaughter are truly blessed.


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## mace17

And I need you guy's opinion in something else - my daughter and family live in a mobile home park in the most beautiful setting on a river with lots of wildlife and peaceful. There is a gorgeous mobile home near them in the same park, used but nicely remodeled, and my daughter even suggested I move there.....without my H of course. I actually could do this, it's affordable and I could probably find a job within an hour away. My 7yr old son even likes this idea since his BIL spends more time with him than his own father does. Any opinions?


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## 3Xnocharm

mace17 said:


> and i need you guy's opinion in something else - my daughter and family live in a mobile home park in the most beautiful setting on a river with lots of wildlife and peaceful. There is a gorgeous mobile home near them in the same park, used but nicely remodeled, and my daughter even suggested i move there.....without my h of course. I actually could do this, it's affordable and i could probably find a job within an hour away. My 7yr old son even likes this idea since his bil spends more time with him than his own father does. Any opinions?


do it!


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## turnera

jealous! do it!


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## A Bit Much

You have to ask? It sounds like the perfect setting for you and your son to be in. And he sounds like he has a really nice role model in his BIL to follow.


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## mace17

I'm still thinking about it, I have to look into employment and schools in the area first. The job I'm at I've had for almost 10 years and make good money and I would really hate to give that up, but my living expenses would be a lot less by my daughter.


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## A Bit Much

The fact that you're even THINKING of it, and weighing pros and cons of it is progress!

This is a huge step forward for you. You finally are getting some clarity, and things AREN'T doom and gloom, they're actually exciting prospects.


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## turnera

There's an article on yahoo today about how people earn money in unconventional ways; one lady is earning up to $6000 a month.

I know someone who shops garage sales and then sells all the stuff on eBay. Makes good money.


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## mace17

Well it was a nice thought but my mom told me tonight that I had better not move away from her and that if I did she would be very hurt. So I guess I'm back at square one again. Oh well I had a nice dream for awhile.


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## 3Xnocharm

So now you're living your life for your mother? Shame on her for not showing you support and shame on you for being so easily manipulated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mace17

No but I'm all she has and I guess she's right. I can't just move away from her since she's elderly and sometimes needs help.


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## turnera

Well, SOMETIMES you can drive back and help her.

Come on, you're a grown woman who needs to get HER life in order. You need to take care of YOUR life for your child. Don't let your mother guilt you. It's not healthy.


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## agreenbough

You're an adult. So is your mother. It is NOT your responsibility to obey her anymore. You have to live your own life. "You're all I have" is a manipulation. If she chose to live her life so that you are "all she has" she did it wrong. It's wrong of her to put pressure on you to live for her.


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## mace17

You guys are right, it's hard though because she's been doing this to me all my life. Every time she wants me to do something that I don't really want to do or don't have time to do, she reminds me that she is getting old and this could be the last time we do wherever it is together. I really should stop falling for this, I've been hearing it for 30+ years now, but I always figure the one time I say no she will be right.


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## turnera

I don't want to be rude, but she's going to die some day anyway. Living your life out of fear of her dying on you is harmful to everyone, including her. If you need to, go to therapy to learn to get rid of this guilt.


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## mace17

I realize that she will die someday, and this sounds bad but I will feel so free at that point. I have always wanted to move south where its warmer, but I can't do that while she is still alive. Ever since I was out on my own, I have had to celebrate all holidays her way and I can't do anything different without her unleashing a giant guilt trip. If I moved by my daughter, it would only be an hour and a half away and I could spend weekends by my mom if she needed me too. I only see her once every couple weeks now, and I'm only about 10 minutes away, so I don't see what the big deal is. But this is probably a topic for a whole new thread. I do fall for guilt trips way too easily, and maybe some IC could help with that.


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## turnera

IC would most definitely help with that. Probably the ONLY thing that would help, at this point.


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## 3Xnocharm

Mace, you have to do what is best for yourself and for your son. Make the arrangements and dont discuss it with your mother. This is YOUR LIFE, and as your mother, she needs to not only learn to accept it, but to be supportive. It doesnt sound like a move would even make a difference in how often you see her, so keep your eye on the big picture here.


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## turnera

Have you read The Dance Of Anger yet? You really need to.


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## mace17

turnera said:


> Have you read The Dance Of Anger yet? You really need to.


No not yet, I'll have to check if my local library can get it.

Just put a hold on it so I should be able to get it soon. Thank you for reminding me.


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## 143

Similar to the way my husband was when our kids were young. His friends were either newly weds or single and at around 25 kids just weren't cool. We moved to another state and made friends with a couple whose daughter cheered with ours. Suddenly being a dad was cool and turned his whole thinking around. Sometimes they just need a different point of view?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mace17

143 said:


> Similar to the way my husband was when our kids were young. His friends were either newly weds or single and at around 25 kids just weren't cool. We moved to another state and made friends with a couple whose daughter cheered with ours. Suddenly being a dad was cool and turned his whole thinking around. Sometimes they just need a different point of view?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not sure how to get him to see a different point of view, we don't have any friends with children my son's age. Neither one if us is good at making friends either. It's hard because in our age group most people have grown children already. I wonder if that's why he's resentful, because he feels like he shouldn't have to deal with raising a young child at his age?


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## turnera

Pick something you've always wanted to do, and find a club or class for it, and join it. You REALLY need to make some friends.


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## mace17

turnera said:


> Pick something you've always wanted to do, and find a club or class for it, and join it. You REALLY need to make some friends.


I do need some friends, it's hard to find time with 2 jobs and kids activities to go to. I can't even go see my granddaughter much because I work all weekend too. I do have a bunch of work friends I can talk to at both jobs though so that helps.


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## turnera

Just start asking your work friends to go to lunch with you.


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## mace17

I wanted to post an update, but I'm not sure where to start. I had set up some counseling sessions for my son for his anxiety issues. The first appointment was just for parent(s) and so I went and told her as much as I could about my son's issues. I didn't say much about any issues between me and H except that My son and H were not all that close because H didn't spend a lot of time with him.
The first appointment where my son went, H came along. the counselor talked to us first, and after a few other questions, asked H about how much time he spent with his son. He replied that they spent lots of time together but that Son had trouble opening up to H and didn't talk to him as much as he does to me. I sat back and didn't say a word, but the counselor even asked me if I was ok because she noticed my neck and face starting to turn red :slap:
I was a little irritated that night because I knew he had lied to her, but I didn't say anything there since this wasn't about our problems. 
He has also told me that when Ive had a few drinks and actually have the guts to speak my mind, I scare him and remind him exactly of his ex wife. Guess no more adult beverages for me and I can stay sweet little me with my mouth closed 
Other than that not much new - he has been spending a little more time with our son again since that appointment last week, just hope it lasts again.


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## turnera

First, aren't you aware that his relationship with his father - and YOUR relationship with his father - IS the cause of his anxiety?

Second, I'm hoping you are being sarcastic in your reply about drinking OR shutting up, yes? Because you sure aren't helping your son any by keeping your mouth closed. And letting him belittle you/bully you/manipulate you by saying if you drink you're 'as bad as' his ex, at which point you do what he says, is EXACTLY why I ended up in 35 years of misery and close to suicide. If he doesn't like you when you drink - and I assume you mean tipsy, not fall down drunk - then that is HIS problem. Changing your behavior to please him is NOT a healthy choice for you OR your son. And it will NEVER get you the behavior you want from your H.


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## mace17

A friend of mine told me the other day that she thought H was controlling. I had never really thought that before, but after listening to her explain why she thought that, I started to see it. He just has a very passive way if being controlling and I never figured it out. Even comparing me to his nagging, bi***y ex wife was a way of making me shut up and stop criticizing and speaking my mind. I wish I could see the other side of the story though and find out what I could be doing better toward him. I know it always takes 2 and I would like to fix what I'm doing wrong too. I am reading "the Dance of Anger" and it is very interesting, and the one example really made me realize that I must be doing something I shouldn't be too.


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## rjaffeux

OMG! I see my husband in this thread. The only dif. is my husband puts most of his money into bills though I physically pay them out of our joint account. But he feels he should be allowed to use all the rest for what he pleases. (Beer)


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## mace17

rjaffeux said:


> OMG! I see my husband in this thread. The only dif. is my husband puts most of his money into bills though I physically pay them out of our joint account. But he feels he should be allowed to use all the rest for what he pleases. (Beer)


I wish I could get mine to do that, I would be totally ok with physically paying the bills if we shared the money to do that. Just yesterday I had to hold his hand and walk him though paying his credit card and car payment.....again. I really want to just make him figure it out, but since they are in my name I'll get the hit on my credit report. Everybody tells me about boundaries, I'm thinking this is one I should set and tell him to put $X amount in the joint checking so I can pay the bills and if he doesn't he's responsible for them himself. I can relate though, if he ever gives me money he accuses me of blowing on shoes or whatever(which I don't) but he buys 20-30 bowling balls and goes to tournaments all over and to Nationals at Reno but that's ok. This year when he goes to Reno I'm taking our son to Disney World so I don't have to hear that he went to Reno so we can't afford a vacation.


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## Remains

Your husband sounds like my ex, father of my kids...unfortunately. We were together 11 years and he manipulated me throughout. He was lazy, selfish, pretty useless. He disrespected me a lot, my son began to take on these attitudes at age 7. My son is 15 now and verbally abusive to me, manipulative, and has even physically hit me. I have had to remove him from the home and send him to live with his father as I just couldn't take it any longer, and he has shown my daughter how to behave also. 

Since leaving their father I have had 5+ years of continual verbal abuse from their father. This is better than the misery I endured with him though. 

Every time I tried to get him to do anything he used excuses to do it later, and of course later means never. Everytime I got cross with this it turned into a row. Every time I went to him with issues I wanted to discuss, or to tell him how unhappy I was, I left the conversation with him having turned it all back on me and me believing I caused all the difficulties. It was me that caused all our misery, including my own. 

Does any of this ring true to you? I hope you will get this sorted. I hope you can move forward in a way that is good for you and your son. 

I found reading a lot on manipulative behaviour helped me enormously in many areas of my life. I left one manipulative man and went to another. This was the reason I began reading. I didn't realise my ex was doing this to me, but my current one was far more messing with my head. I had to know if I was really so wrong. I wasn't. I think if you can do this too, you will be far more aware when he is doing this with you. And it will help you to stop being manipulated by your mother too. I have a manipulative step father too, reading up on this helped me enormously with this relationship also.


----------



## turnera

mace17 said:


> I am reading "the Dance of Anger" and it is very interesting, and the one example really made me realize that I must be doing something I shouldn't be too.


 Of course that is what you would get out of that book. You WANT to be an abuse victim. It's your role in life (unless you get help). It's why you chose him, it's why you stay - you WANT to be abused. It's easier than taking responsibility for your life.


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## TikiKeen

"Want?" No.

Until victims learn what they do to attract predators, they cannot change it. Dance of Anger is a good start in seeing those expectations, patterns and behaviors in herself.

It took therapy for me to see that every relationship I was in somehow duplicated or was an attempt to repair childhood damage. I hated that the old "daddy/mommy issues" adage was true, but it was for me. 

Until I saw what I believed, where I learned it and how those beliefs led to unconscious decisions which damaged me, nothing changed. It wasn't them, him or her. It was me. Depression while I went through this process was a sign that the old stuff didn't work any more. When it became anger at myself...*then* it was time to change.

mace, what if the "something I shouldn't be (doing)" is "not being kind to myself" or "not learning new boundaries" or "not being aware that I believe I su*k and deserve what i'm getting?" (That's all food for thought.) Deep beliefs are sly.

What's the deal with victim-bashing here the past two days?


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## mace17

For those of you that have read the book, I'm referring to the example of Sandra and Larry. Larry seemed to be a lot like my H at first, but after reading the whole chapter, it showed how Sandra's behavior was actually allowing Larry to be the way he was and they both had to change. In most cases, it takes 2 to make a relationship not work. And I can't change him, so I need to figure out what to change about ME. I don't believe in the victim mentality, I've been a victim but I am now capable of making my own choices and I can choose not to use having been a victim as an excuse for my choices. However I do realize that old patterns from childhood are hard to break, and that is where I need to change my thinking.


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## turnera

TikiKeen said:


> It took therapy for me to see that every relationship I was in somehow duplicated or was an attempt to repair childhood damage. I hated that the old "daddy/mommy issues" adage was true, but it was for me.


The best book about that - an amazing book - is Getting The Love You Want. It's all about how what you experience as a child shapes who you pick for a partner as an adult. What your parent DIDN'T give you, how they hurt you, is what you seek in your partner. You want your partner - the duplicate of your harmful parent - to FIX what that harmful parent did, to STOP BEING HARMFUL. Your subconscious thinks that, if only they would do a 180 and be a NON-harmful person, it would make up for the harm you suffered and you could finally be at peace.

The fallacy here is that your partner - who is ALSO dysfunction due to his/her OWN childhood - is expecting YOU to fix THEIR problems. And once the PEA chemicals (lust) have died down, the both of you are left in misery and resentment that the other isn't fixing you. Recipe for disaster.

When the only REAL solution is for you to stop seeking 'fixing' from your partner and instead seek individual counseling to heal the wounds yourself.


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## mace17

turnera said:


> The best book about that - an amazing book - is Getting The Love You Want. It's all about how what you experience as a child shapes who you pick for a partner as an adult. What your parent DIDN'T give you, how they hurt you, is what you seek in your partner. You want your partner - the duplicate of your harmful parent - to FIX what that harmful parent did, to STOP BEING HARMFUL. Your subconscious thinks that, if only they would do a 180 and be a NON-harmful person, it would make up for the harm you suffered and you could finally be at peace.
> 
> The fallacy here is that your partner - who is ALSO dysfunction due to his/her OWN childhood - is expecting YOU to fix THEIR problems. And once the PEA chemicals (lust) have died down, the both of you are left in misery and resentment that the other isn't fixing you. Recipe for disaster.
> 
> When the only REAL solution is for you to stop seeking 'fixing' from your partner and instead seek individual counseling to heal the wounds yourself.


I guess I need to read that one too.


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## mace17

Well we ended up having a sort of a talk tonight, it all started when he was getting in the shower and asked me to make him a pizza. I followed the cooking directions exactly, as I know that's what he does. When he got out of the shower, he went over to the pizza, sighed loudly, and turned the oven back on. Of course I came to ask what was wrong, and he said the pizza wasn't done, the cheese was barely melted. I didn't say a word, just started to walk away. He started yelling at me about how I'm always trying to prove that he blames me for everything. I just looked at him like wtf? He said he feels that I am distant and looking to leave him and trying to find as many excuses as I can. I tried to explain that I was trying to let go of trying to get him to change, and just work on me and doing what I need to do ( basically the 180, to break the cycle of me getting upset). I said I realized I could change him and wasn't going to waste the energy getting mad about it, so I was just concentrating on me and how I could be a better person. We did get a few things straightened out I guess, I feel like I can never do things up to his standards, and apparently he feels the same way. He said I should let him know when he does something that upsets me, but then in the next breath he said he feels like he's walking on eggshells not knowing if he's going to do something wrong again. This statement puzzled me a little. I said that I feel the same way, that I can't live up to his standards, but that I have accepted it and am ok with just being the best I can be and not trying to meet anybody else's expectations. I really felt like I did good, I used "I" statements and didn't do any blaming. 
I told him that it hurt that he never wants to hug me or kiss me or hold me, and he said it was because I give off a vibe that says don't touch me. I wasn't aware of that, and told him that is one thing I need from him. On the subject of our son, I didn't get very far. He says he is just too old and doesn't have the energy to do stuff with him. I said why don't you suggest something non-physical then, like a video game or board game, but he says our son refuses to play games with him because they always end up fighting, which is true. I have no idea why, because I don't have that problem with him. So I guess we talked and discovered some thing about how we are feeling, but I'm still not quite sure what. 
On another note, he said I'm am getting to be like his mom. She passed away before we met so I had to ask him to explain that. He said that after being married to his dad for several years, she just pretty much crawled inside herself and never came out again. Sounds like she emotionally checked out. And since my H is a lot like his dad, I can kind of understand that, but I am stronger than that. 
I'm open to any suggestions or advice here, even if I may not like what I hear. I would prefer to work things if possible, that would be my first choice before leaving him.


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## Prodigal

mace17 said:


> ... he was getting in the shower and asked me to make him a pizza. I followed the cooking directions exactly, as I know that's what he does. When he got out of the shower, he went over to the pizza, sighed loudly, and turned the oven back on. ... he said the pizza wasn't done, the cheese was barely melted.


I don't think I would have obliged the request. After all, it appears he likes to nitpick and find fault. You did your best to prepare the pizza exactly to directions, yet he still found fault. However, it is obviously about more than just pizza preparation, isn't it?



mace17 said:


> He started yelling at me about how I'm always trying to prove that he blames me for everything.
> 
> He said he feels that I am distant and looking to leave him and trying to find as many excuses as I can.
> 
> He said I should let him know when he does something that upsets me, but then in the next breath he said he feels like he's walking on eggshells not knowing if he's going to do something wrong again.


He said, he said, he said ... And what he says is crazy-making. It is illogical. You can't make sense of nonsense. Also, nothing gets resolved. He's making noise, but it boils down to being nothing more than stonewalling. He cannot, or will not, see your side of things. 



mace17 said:


> I told him that it hurt that he never wants to hug me or kiss me or hold me, and he said it was because I give off a vibe that says don't touch me.
> 
> On the subject of our son, I didn't get very far. He says he is just too old and doesn't have the energy to do stuff with him. I said why don't you suggest something non-physical then, like a video game or board game, but he says our son refuses to play games with him because they always end up fighting, which is true.


So even when you bring up how you feel he neglects you, he turns it back around on you. If you didn't give off a "vibe" then he would be all over you, right? If you would only behave a certain way, he'd be affectionate. 

No wonder this talk yielded nothing but more confusion and frustration. This guy is not anywhere near singing on the same page as you.

His excuse for not giving his son time is disgusting. Too tired, my a$$. He has energy to run around to bowling tournaments, if I recall. And I bet the arguments with his son start because he talks to his own child just like he talks to you. Dismissive. No validation of the other person's feelings. 



mace17 said:


> So I guess we talked and discovered some thing about how we are feeling, but I'm still not quite sure what.


Hopefully, you discovered talking to this a$$hat is a waste of time. 



mace17 said:


> ... he said I'm am getting to be like his mom. ... He said that after being married to his dad for several years, she just pretty much crawled inside herself and never came out again.


Yeah, we all turn into our mothers and/or fathers. That was then, this is now. You are not his mother. He is not his father. But I get the feeling he uses that as an excuse to wallow in his own dysfunction and perpetuate the same old crap.

I'm all for working on marriage. But I think you may look back on this in 10 years and realize you wasted your time on a stingy, narrow minded man. 

But if you want to keep trying, by all means go ahead. Your life. Your choices.


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## LongWalk

Hello Mace,

I have only read parts of your thread. Pardon me if I missed something, but your husband is very blind to your marital problems. He senses that all is not well. However, just as he is unwilling to explore how serious the problems are, you are unwilling to reveal how deep the damage is.

The limited amount of interaction he has with your son is sad for your son. He would probably have more if he was forced to be weekend dad or 50% custody father. So divorce is in your son's interests. By not divorcing your husband, you are cheating your son of a more engaged father.

Your husband is a boring person who costs you a lot of money. He does not give you affection and you are repulsed by him, although you desire sex and affection. I you wanted your husband's touch, you would touch him.

You do not like the person you are turning into. Your husband does not like that person. You being destroyed. And yet you willingly walk down this road.

If you want to change your husband you must go to MC. If he refuses, you must file for divorce. If you take action you will succeed, if you fail, you become the repository of your husband abuse.


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## turnera

LongWalk said:


> If you want to change your husband you must go to MC. If he refuses, you must file for divorce. If you take action you will succeed, if you fail, you become the repository of your husband abuse.


Pretty much says it all.


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## mace17

LongWalk said:


> Hello Mace,
> 
> I have only read parts of your thread. Pardon me if I missed something, but your husband is very blind to your marital problems. He senses that all is not well. However, just as he is unwilling to explore how serious the problems are, you are unwilling to reveal how deep the damage is.
> 
> The limited amount of interaction he has with your son is sad for your son. He would probably have more if he was forced to be weekend dad or 50% custody father. So divorce is in your son's interests. By not divorcing your husband, you are cheating your son of a more engaged father.
> 
> Your husband is a boring person who costs you a lot of money. He does not give you affection and you are repulsed by him, although you desire sex and affection. I you wanted your husband's touch, you would touch him.
> 
> You do not like the person you are turning into. Your husband does not like that person. You being destroyed. And yet you willingly walk down this road.
> 
> If you want to change your husband you must go to MC. If he refuses, you must file for divorce. If you take action you will succeed, if you fail, you become the repository of your husband abuse.


I suggested MC but he refused, said that's all he knows and can't change. Should I take him at his word and try first?


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## LongWalk

Book a time that he has open. Tell him that you will go by yourself if he declines. Download standard divorce forms. Give them to him. Do not threaten. Just say you want his opinion on how to fix your marriage.


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## turnera

mace17 said:


> I suggested MC but he refused, said that's all he knows and can't change. Should I take him at his word and try first?


Mace, none of this works until you are DONE with what his choices are. You tell him what YOU are doing, what YOU need, and he is free to do it with you, or not. No matter, you still do what you need.


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## mace17

Ok guys I appreciate all your advice on here and I have implemented some of the suggestions like trying to set boundaries, doing what I need to do for me and my son without worrying about if he participates or not, and I have read 2 if the books suggested. I guess I don't know what to do next, I agree that IC would be helpful for me and I will try to set that up soon. I just don't want to give up yet, this is my 3rd marriage and I guess this is something I'm not very good at but I don't want to be a failure again. I also don't want to hurt my H believe it or not, he's is not a bad person just pretty clueless. Although looking back some of the stuff he does seems kind of manipulative but I really don't think he means it that way. I also don't want to break up my son's home and life as he knows it. In spite of the way his dad is to him sometimes, he is still the first person my son wants to tell when he has accomplished something and that says a lot. I will admit that I am not happy, but do you all really think that all I've told you is enough to break up my family and divorce him? That's what is going through my head right now, whether this can be fixed or if I should give up. Or if I should just keep my mouth shut and live with it the best I can. That's not a good option I know. If he won't go to any counseling or change his behavior, I guess leaving him is my only option. Sorry I'm rambling now and just thinking out loud. I'm just lost here, I know most of you think I should give up but I am not sure that's the right thing to do yet.


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## 3Xnocharm

mace17 said:


> Ok guys I appreciate all your advice on here and I have implemented some of the suggestions like trying to set boundaries, doing what I need to do for me and my son without worrying about if he participates or not, and I have read 2 if the books suggested. I guess I don't know what to do next, I agree that IC would be helpful for me and I will try to set that up soon. I just don't want to give up yet, this is my 3rd marriage and I guess this is something I'm not very good at but I don't want to be a failure again. I also don't want to hurt my H believe it or not, he's is not a bad person just pretty clueless. Although looking back some of the stuff he does seems kind of manipulative but I really don't think he means it that way. I also don't want to break up my son's home and life as he knows it. In spite of the way his dad is to him sometimes, he is still the first person my son wants to tell when he has accomplished something and that says a lot.* I will admit that I am not happy, but do you all really think that all I've told you is enough to break up my family and divorce him? That's what is going through my head right now, whether this can be fixed or if I should give up. *Or if I should just keep my mouth shut and live with it the best I can. That's not a good option I know. If he won't go to any counseling or change his behavior, I guess leaving him is my only option. Sorry I'm rambling now and just thinking out loud. I'm just lost here, I know most of you think I should give up but I am not sure that's the right thing to do yet.



YES. And THEN some. This man has told you flat out that this is WHO HE IS and that he is not willing to do anything to change that. If you like, I can go aalll the way back through this thread, and others you started, and quote.


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## turnera

Will he go to therapy? If not, your marriage has no hope, and you will end up suicidal, dead, or in a hospital. And then what will your son do?

Demand it and prepare to move out if he won't. What he then does will tell you everything you need to know.


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## mace17

All of you have helped me realize too that he's not just the nice but lazy guy I thought he was. I didn't realize how he manipulated and turned things around on me like he does until I came here. Thank you for helping me see things differently. I will suggest or demand the counseling if finances will allow and see what happens.


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## turnera

And if he refuses to go?


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## mace17

turnera said:


> And if he refuses to go?


Then I guess I go by myself and see if I can fix my issues at least.


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## turnera

Now THAT is a plan.


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## mace17

Thanks Turnera - I appreciate the support. I have been feeling so down lately, I think it's because I'm sick if pretending to be happy. I came close to having a panic attack tonight when I had to go to my Second job, I just was so down and didn't feel like dealing with people but I made it somehow. I appreciate all the support I get on here, thank you all so much.


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## Hortensia

mace17 said:


> Sorry I guess that wasn't very clear. While I already have a good job that pays pretty well, I had to go get a second job as a waitress because I just can't afford everything I have to pay. Part of it is because he doesn't help with money and bills much, especially anything to do with our son. Of course, the second job means I'm gone a lot especially on weekends, and he doesn't like that much either. If I was single, even if I didn't get child support, I would be farther ahead because I wouldn't have so many bills to pay.


Mace, I read until here. My hair went spikes in indignation. 
You call that a MAN ? What is next, he'll give up his job and make you support him. You'll work two jobs, he'll sit all day at the computer or TV with the child unfed and unattended in the other room. That's where you're heading to !

What exactly do you have from this "marriage"? Financial help ? No. Caring about your feelings? No. A good father to your son? A big, fat NO . Hell, according to your other thread, he doesn't even like your dog. Not standing children and pets speaks volumes of a person's character. 
So what do you get from him? :scratchhead:

As for your daughter, what you did was so wrong. Sorry but you were not a good mother to her. You married a man knowing that he can't stand her and he'll make her life miserable. This, after all she suffered with her own father. You think changing her real dad's molestation for her step dad's disdain and emotional abuse was a trade up ? You showed your daughter that you chose a stranger over her. You were not capable of defending her and standing up for her. Such a mother you are...and now you are repeating the mistake with your son.

My mother briefly remarried after the divorce from my dad. I hated the guy, and he hated me. But she always took MY side in all arguments and made sure I still felt like number one to her. The marriage lasted 6-7 months, this being only one of the reasons. She would have never allowed her husband to yell at me, much less for me to have to move out because of him.

Your H does not want pets, does not want children, does not even want a wife, because he is cheap and selfish and wants no responsabilities. He should have never married, and you should have never married him knowing how he was like from the start.

Do your kids a favor, divorce and live apart from this man. You can still see him and sleep with him if he is good at that, but you'll be much better off as a single mom. For single mom you already are 
Edit : don't worry about him wanting custody. He proved he lacks the interest, the energy and the wish to spend his precious money and time on his child.


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## mace17

Hortensia said:


> Mace, I read until here. My hair went spikes in indignation.
> You call that a MAN ? What is next, he'll give up his job and make you support him. You'll work two jobs, he'll sit all day at the computer or TV with the child unfed and unattended in the other room. That's where you're heading to !
> 
> What exactly do you have from this "marriage"? Financial help ? No. Caring about your feelings? No. A good father to your son? A big, fat NO . Hell, according to your other thread, he doesn't even like your dog. Not standing children and pets speaks volumes of a person's character.
> So what do you get from him? :scratchhead:
> 
> As for your daughter, what you did was so wrong. Sorry but you were not a good mother to her. You married a man knowing that he can't stand her and he'll make her life miserable. This, after all she suffered with her own father. You think changing her real dad's molestation for her step dad's disdain and emotional abuse was a trade up ? You showed your daughter that you chose a stranger over her. You were not capable of defending her and standing up for her. Such a mother you are...and now you are repeating the mistake with your son.
> 
> My mother briefly remarried after the divorce from my dad. I hated the guy, and he hated me. But she always took MY side in all arguments and made sure I still felt like number one to her. The marriage lasted 6-7 months, this being only one of the reasons. She would have never allowed her husband to yell at me, much less for me to have to move out because of him.
> 
> Your H does not want pets, does not want children, does not even want a wife, because he is cheap and selfish and wants no responsabilities. He should have never married, and you should have never married him knowing how he was like from the start.
> 
> Do your kids a favor, divorce and live apart from this man. You can still see him and sleep with him if he is good at that, but you'll be much better off as a single mom. For single mom you already are
> Edit : don't worry about him wanting custody. He proved he lacks the interest, the energy and the wish to spend his precious money and time on his child.


Hortensia, you are so right and I realize I have not been a good mother to my daughter. This is why I have had so much trouble trying to decide what to do with my son and his father. As much as an a**hole as my daughter's father was, if I had put my feelings aside and stayed with him my daughter would have had a much better life and would definitely have avoided the molesting step father. Although my son is often sad and anxious because of his father's lack of emotional support, he is still the first person he goes to with exciting news like when he earned his green belt. I still don't know if it's better for him to have the imperfect but stable life he's always know or the alternative. I really do apologize for the fence-sitting but I want to make sure I do the right thing here, I realize I have screwed up many times in the past and I don't want to do that again. I don't care about me or my happiness, just what's best for my son.


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## FRANC

Hi Mace

It may be useful for you to go back and read all of your own posts again....you may see more clearly the story of your life not just this marriage....you have been manipulated and emotionally abused for a long long time. But I dont think you can see the wood for the huge trees...and now the saga continues with your young son who already at 7 needs therapy. That alone is a huge red flag that alot needs to change. And soon.

Your have been manipulated for years by various people....this is your chance and time to take control of your, and likely your sons, destiny. 

IMHO it shouldnt matter that divorce is another failure, that you should try to make it work at any cost- the costs here are way too high! 

Not wanting a third failed marriage on your resume is not more important than saving yourself, your sanity and the future emotional health of your child. And maybe you should never marry again because of the type of guys you seem to choose...

Your H not just cant change - as others have said, he doesnt want to! He continues to show you who he is and still manages to make you feel like so much is your fault.

The things you have come to accept as normal really are not healthy and are damaging you and your son.

If this were me, and felt divorce is necessary....i would tell my son that i felt i had to do it because he is wonderful and special and deserves so much more than his biological father (he hasnt earned the label 'dad') can give him. A couple of baseball games does not a dad make.

Your mother is emotionally blackmailing you and being totally selfish. My father is lovely, 87 years old....he lives 3,500 miles away from me in the UK. We have been here for 8 yrs and i am lucky if i see them 2-3 times a year. When I once expressed concern about not being close to him and mum as they age....he told me to not even think about moving back there for them....i have to put my family first and have a good life here. 

Parents should not guilt their kids in staying in one place no matter if its right or wrong for the offspring. Dont use that as another excuse not to change your situation. You also can improve your relationship with your daughter by putting her ahead of your SUPER SELFISH MEAN husband for a change, which will also give your son more positive role models especially male at the same time.

I am pro marriage and reconciliation....but in your case leaving your husband could improve your life, your sons life (if handled correctly) and your daughter/granchilds life. Your husband is a lost cause, from everything you have told us. He blamed his previous failed marriages on the women too right? And so he shall do with this one. At this point, anyone who loves you wouldnt give much of a cr*p about that.

Love yourself more, then save yourself. Your son will grow up understanding that his parents marriage actually wasnt a good model of a happy family. And that his mom turned out to be his savior after all.

Believe this....the strength to do the right thing is within you...embrace it rather than fear it. You are stronger than you know and braver than you believe. 

Life is short....take steps to get yourself and your son a happier one.

PS Turnera you are awesome.


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## mace17

Well I made some appointments for IC, I couldn't get in til January, but at least I have about 5 appointments scheduled now. It's a start.


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## turnera

No reason you can't read a book a week until then.


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## mace17

turnera said:


> No reason you can't read a book a week until then.


Any more suggestions? I have read the dance of anger, how to get the love you want, and too bad to stay, too good to leave so far. And part of his needs, her needs. Any other good book suggestions?


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## AVR1962

Mace, I feel for you. You have described my husband as well. When we met 24 years ago he had custody of his 2 sons. The boys were only 2 & 4 and the bio mom was not a big part of the picture. Husband obviously did not want the responsibility of his children, at least from my point of view. The younger boy was suffering from allergies and his nose and eyes were miserable yet husband saw nothing wrong with it. The older boy was very angry, threw tantrums but it seemed husband was lost. He was caught up in his own desires for himself. He would drag the boys with him to go drinking with his buddies. He left porn mags around the house. I did not see him spending any kind of quality time with them. He sat and watched TV, did crossword puzzles and did not want to be bothered by his sons.

I had a great deal of compassion for the boys and saw their needs and that is how I got involved with husband.

I set up a sitter for when we would go out to happy hour with friends. I set it up that a sitter would come in after school and watch the kids so they would not have to go to a day care they hated. I made sure they had nice clothes and hair cuts that fit in, that wasn't important to husband. I encouraged sports and friends. I painted their bedrooms and bought them posters for their walls, something they didn't have. All perhaps a woman's touch but I think the difference is I had compassion and husband was all about himself.

The boys are not 30 and 32 and have not relationship with their dad. It wasn't a matter of him not knowing how to meet the needs of small children. He has been better with our only child, a daughter but he still is VERY much in his own little world and seeking his own interests.

The man won't change. Try marriage counseling and be specific on what you feel and need from your husband, I hope it helps. But you have to decide what it is that you want. You have to place your boundaries with your husband's behavior. 

I am currently in counselor and counselor is encouraging me to do my own thing and ignore the needs of my husband. I know that sounds crazy but you lose self esteem trying to meet the needs of anyone who is only concerned about their own needs.


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## turnera

I think EVERY woman should read Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men. Even if they don't end up with a controlling husband, they need to see the symptoms and understand why it happens, so they're aware. And they recognize the spouses of some friend or family.


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## turnera

I also like the Self Esteem Workbook (I think that's the title).


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## mace17

To Turnera, 3xnocharm, and others whose names I don't remember right now, thank you for the sometimes blunt but always helpful advice you have. You understand that I'm not looking for excuses to leave my marriage, but rather solutions for the issues I'm having in it. Unfortunately I guess there are people on here that are not so helpful and very judgemental, and I am not planning to post on here anymore. I have enough of those kind if people in my real life. Thank you all who have given real advice and suggestions, and thank you to those who have given me ideas on books to read.


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## LongWalk

Good luck!


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## turnera

Please don't go. Just take a break. I'm taking a break from the place I post personal stuff cos I felt attacked. Need my space.

Come back when you're ready.


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## mace17

Thank you Turnera, I don't want to go but I'm sick of being attacked. I can get enough of that in real life. I sincerely appreciate all your advice, you don't sugarcoat anything and that's the way I like it, even if it's hard to hear sometimes. I did end up getting rid of the dog (from my other thread) and I just can't stop crying about it. I'm seriously thinking of finding an apartment now, I just can't bear to live here anymore. It's hard for me to hear all your advice sometimes, yet I know you are right. I don't want to mess up my 3rd marriage, but I know I would be so much happier single and staying that way. I have no idea how to pick a good man, and I know me and my son could be happy on our own. I don't need a man in my life. I can't wait til my counseling appointments start, hopefully I can get some clarity in my life. I only wish I hadn't waited so long, but I have this paranoid fear about it being on my medical records. I know better though and am looking forward to it. Thank you again and please keep telling it to me like it is, I need that.


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## turnera

I've never seen an incidence of any employer being able to - or even wanting to - find out that you've been to a therapist. Anyway, depression is so common nowadays that you're unusual if you DON'T have it, so seeing a therapist isn't the stigma that it used to be.


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## mace17

Turnera, I'm not worried about employers, more like lawyers in case of divorce or any other issues like that. In my first divorce, every little thing I had ever done was blown out of proportion and used against me. If I was spotted in a bar, all of a sudden I was a drunken wh**e and practically lived there. That sort of thing. So I'm afraid that if I have a history of mental problems I will have trouble getting custody if my child because I will look unstable. I know this is a totally irrational fear but bad experiences will do that I guess.


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## turnera

How soon will you be divorced?


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## mace17

Probably not for awhile. Still considering my options.


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## AVR1962

turnera said:


> I think EVERY woman should read Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men. Even if they don't end up with a controlling husband, they need to see the symptoms and understand why it happens, so they're aware. And they recognize the spouses of some friend or family.


Thanks for the book suggestion. I finally bought a book on aspergers and just the fist chapter describes my husband and what I have been thru completely. Might be another thought for those dealing with mystery behavior. The book I am reading is"Going Over the Edge"by Kathy J Marshack.


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## mace17

Help me understand why I do this..... My H's oldest daughter is living with is for a little while (about 2 weeks). She and her boyfriend were living other her and broke up, so I offered her our spare room. She is helping around the house and not taking advantage in any way, so that's not an issue. But her boyfriend ended up with their car since it was in her name. So guess who has been getting up at 4am to take her to work......yep, that would be me. I don't mind, but it would be nice if her dad would help once in awhile. Now I have to keep track of her schedule and my son's, and try to coordinate everything while he does what he's always done, go to work and then come home and do nothing. Again, I have resentment building up, I tried to talk to him about it and he said he would take her to work a couple days this week but so far nothing. And of course guess who's bought all the Christmas presents for his and my family so far...... I did write out a check for my mom's present today and tell him he'd have to cover it for now, and he wasn't real happy. I can't wait til I see my therapist in January, I want to know I'm not crazy.


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## turnera

mace, come on....

Just say no.

Everything you just described IS YOUR OWN FAULT.


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## mace17

turnera said:


> mace, come on....
> 
> Just say no.
> 
> Everything you just described IS YOUR OWN FAULT.


I wish I could just say no without worrying about the consequences. I really can't just expect him to take his daughter to work because if he doesn't she could lose her job and she's very hard working and has been at her job for almost 6 years so I don't want to see that happen. As far as picking her up, I work in town and have a flexible lunch hour while he works an hour away so I can't really expect him to do that either. I'd love for him to have some responsibility but not at the expense of people I care about.


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## AVR1962

mace17 said:


> Divorce is damaging to children too. In this case, I don't know which is the lesser of 2 evils. Having an uninvolved father is not good for him, but divorce isn't good either. I don't know at this point which scenario would be less damaging for my son. Trust me, if I figure it out I will do it.


I totally understand what you are saying here. Divorce is very damaging to a child. I do not want to encourage to stay in a marriage that is not healthy but let me give you an example here that I lived. My first husband was having an affair, I asked him to stop and we'd go to counseling. I loved him dearly and we had 2 children together. He chose the lady he was having an affair with. I read her love notes to him and I could see she did not want to commit to him but he was in love so I let him go. She did end up leaving him as I suspected would happen. Who suffered from this? Our children.

Sure I was hurt too. But my ex chose to build a life with this other women and her kids rather than his own. He moved out of state and he did not contact us for 2 years. he never was a connected part of their lives after that. My kids were hurt, blamed themselves and I think my oldest was seeking men to replace the love she felt lost from her father. 

He remarried, created a new family and my children were again left out and they didn't understand why their dad didn't love them the way he loved his new family.

I then eventually remarried and the kids had step siblings and we eventually had a child which with ex's children gave them half siblings as well. I don't get the feeling my daughters know the real sense of family as they have had to except so much. Both are in counseling and they are now 28 and 32.

Husband's second wife divorced my ex but waited until the kids were on their own and the kids in that marriage seem to be more well adjusted and able to cope with the divorce.

Divorce really is not a solution but you do have to make the life you share with your husband bearable and you do have to think of the impact your relationship could be having on your child.


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## turnera

mace17 said:


> I wish I could just say no without worrying about the consequences. I really can't just expect him to take his daughter to work because if he doesn't she could lose her job and she's very hard working and has been at her job for almost 6 years so I don't want to see that happen. As far as picking her up, I work in town and have a flexible lunch hour while he works an hour away so I can't really expect him to do that either. I'd love for him to have some responsibility but not at the expense of people I care about.


Excuses. All you have to do is say - A WEEK AHEAD OF TIME - that doing all this is killing you and you have to take a step back. So, starting next Monday (or whatever day), you will need stepdaughter to work out how to get to work with HER FATHER, because you have to take some responsibilities off of YOUR back before you have a stroke. 

And then FOLLOW THROUGH.


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## mace17

I think I am ready to be done with this whole mess. He's been mad at me for something ever since Thursday and has barely even spoken to me or been in the same room. Last night he was sitting by me on the sofa and I tried to put my head on his shoulder. He finally moved his arm so I could lay with my head on his chest, but then he put his hands behind his head so he wouldn't have to touch me at all. I'm so sick of playing the guessing game of what did I do now. What do I do next? What should my first steps be now if I don't want to deal with this anymore? It's sad, I'm tough and independent but I don't have a clue what my next move should be. And yes, I did suggest MC and he said no, so that's not an option.


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## turnera

My suggestion is to tell him you're unhappy and will be making plans to move out. That the only way you'd consider staying is if he WILL go to MC, but it's up to him.

And then start setting up separate bank accounts, etc. Let him see the work you do to detangle from him. So he'll know you're serious.


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## 3Xnocharm

You and your son deserve a better life than this, Mace. I hope you find the courage soon.


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## mace17

So some if you have suggested that I need to be more assertive and just tell my H what I need him to do instead of hoping he will step up on his own. 2 months ago, I owed $50 yet on an old doctor bill for my son and I asked him to pay it. I gave him the bill which had all the information needed so he could make the payment. He agreed to pay it, didn't even protest so I though this was good. A month later I get another bill from the doctor for this amount so I asked him if he had paid it. He assured me that he had taken care of it. Another month later I got another bill, so I asked again. He said again that he had paid so so I asked how he paid it, cash, check, credit card, etc. He said it was so long ago he didn't remember. So the next day I called the doctors office and sure enough it hadn't been paid so I took care of it right away. 
I guess even coming right out and clearly stating what I need doesn't work either.


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## turnera

As my IC has told me repeatedly, as long as I put my interests in HIS hands, keep myself vulnerable to him, I will continue to suffer. If I stress out because he didn't fix the door lock, well, get it fixed yourself.


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## mace17

Ok I'm confused though, I tried just not expecting anything of him and taking care of it myself and yes it made things more peaceful all around because I wasn't worrying about if he would take responsibility or not, but it also made me more stressed having it all on me. I'm back to 2 jobs again, I owe over $500 to my son's Kung Fu teacher but I don't want to have to take him out if it. I need to work on his Pinewood Derby car for cub scouts but can't find time because of working too much. Just feel like I'm drowning here.


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## turnera

Then reach out for help. Find a barter program in your area. Talk to other parents. Call up a sibling or friend. People DO like to help other people; you just have to let them.


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## mace17

My son was trying to convince me last night that we should leave his dad and get our own place. A part of me likes hearing this, but at the same time I know its not really healthy for a 7 year old to be saying stuff like this. I didn't say anything either way, other than telling him when he suggested we move in with his sister that it wouldn't work because there's not enough room there. Then I changed the subject. It seems like they are getting along better and spending a little more time together, but then he says something like this. I will definitely mention it to my counselor and to his also, but does anybody have any insight on why a child would suggest this?


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## 3Xnocharm

mace17 said:


> My son was trying to convince me last night that we should leave his dad and get our own place. A part of me likes hearing this, but at the same time I know its not really healthy for a 7 year old to be saying stuff like this. I didn't say anything either way, other than telling him when he suggested we move in with his sister that it wouldn't work because there's not enough room there. Then I changed the subject. It seems like they are getting along better and spending a little more time together, but then he says something like this. * I will definitely mention it to my counselor and to his also, but does anybody have any insight on why a child would suggest this?*


Your child is miserable, thats why!! Take the hint and get the hell out finally! This should FINALLY be your wake up call! I cannot believe you are still there, Mace, what does it take, a brick wall?? Well your SON"S UNHAPPINESS is your brick wall!


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## mace17

3Xnocharm said:


> Your child is miserable, thats why!! Take the hint and get the hell out finally! This should FINALLY be your wake up call! I cannot believe you are still there, Mace, what does it take, a brick wall?? Well your SON"S UNHAPPINESS is your brick wall!


I understand what you're saying, but I don't think a child his age is really capable of understanding what he's really saying by saying that. That's why I'm trying to understand it, if he was really that miserable, he wouldn't want to spend time with his dad and make sure I always send dad up to say good night to him every night. And no, I have never mention anything like that to him so I haven't planted the idea in his head.


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## turnera

Because he hates living there! How awful must it be that a child would have to suggest it to his own mom?


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## Starstarfish

mace17 said:


> I understand what you're saying, but I don't think a child his age is really capable of understanding what he's really saying by saying that. That's why I'm trying to understand it, if he was really that miserable, he wouldn't want to spend time with his dad and make sure I always send dad up to say good night to him every night. And no, I have never mention anything like that to him so I haven't planted the idea in his head.


You aren't giving your son enough credit. At what age will you believe him? And if are immediately set to dismiss what he says as meaningless because of his age, why ask for insight on what he means?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## A Bit Much

mace17 said:


> I understand what you're saying, but I don't think a child his age is really capable of understanding what he's really saying by saying that. That's why I'm trying to understand it, if he was really that miserable, he wouldn't want to spend time with his dad and make sure I always send dad up to say good night to him every night. And no, I have never mention anything like that to him so I haven't planted the idea in his head.


Most 7 year olds in healthy, non-dysfunctional households don't ask to move away from their parent. He spends time with the man because he loves him, but he wants his dad to accept him and he feels his dad DOES NOT. A child will try over and over again to gain the love of their father or mother because they need it and want it.

As his mother, KNOWING what's underlying and what is really happening with him and his father, why would you want to continue subjecting the boy to the rejection? You know it for what it is.


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## mace17

A Bit Much said:


> Most 7 year olds in healthy, non-dysfunctional households don't ask to move away from their parent. He spends time with the man because he loves him, but he wants his dad to accept him and he feels his dad DOES NOT. A child will try over and over again to gain the love of their father or mother because they need it and want it.
> 
> As his mother, KNOWING what's underlying and what is really happening with him and his father, why would you want to continue subjecting the boy to the rejection? You know it for what it is.


Do you think he would feel less rejected if he only had visitation or shared placement with dad versus us all living in the same house?


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## A Bit Much

mace17 said:


> Do you think he would feel less rejected if he only had visitation or shared placement with dad versus us all living in the same house?


24/7 feelings of rejection or two or three times a week for a couple hours of it.

You do the math.


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## 3Xnocharm

You are running out of excuses, Mace. Your kid is begging you for something better for him. How can you keep him in this just because YOU dont want to be without a husband?? Stop thinking about yourself and focus on his well being for a change.


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## mace17

3Xnocharm said:


> You are running out of excuses, Mace. Your kid is begging you for something better for him. How can you keep him in this just because YOU dont want to be without a husband?? Stop thinking about yourself and focus on his well being for a change.



Actually, I'm not thinking about myself, I'm trying to decide if it's worth it to put my some through the trauma of divorce just because his dad is not a perfect father. I would love to be single and on my own again, I'm just not sure whether putting my son through a divorce is better than living with an uninvolved and somewhat critical father. 
Not sure if this is just an excuse on his part or not, but H tells me that I don't give him an opportunity to get involved in some things because I just take over and do it myself. Like the pinewood derby car for example. I did ask him to help with a couple things, but it didn't happen. I did the research and yes I pretty much took over the project without involving him much. I'm probably wrong in this too, but there was a deadline to get it done, and I know how he is with procrastinating.


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## turnera

Give him a month. Tell him you will be watching to see HOW he steps up and becomes a real, NON-aggressive, NON-negative parent and a decent husband.


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## mace17

My son's counselor told H some specific ideas to do to spend time with him and give him the attention he's trying to get, and also how to tell him that he's proud of him so it sounds like he means it. He had a list of do's and dont's to work on, so far I think he's only done one positive thing. The next appointment is next week, we'll see what she says then.


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## turnera

Make sure you are utterly honest with her, in that he is doing almost NOTHING.


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## mace17

On a positive note, my therapist said I did really good with consequences when I planned my trip to Disney world. Every year, my H goes to wherever bowling nationals are and then when I suggest a family vacation he says we can't afford it because he went to Nationals. So this year I planned a vacation to Disney, just me and my son, for the same time as he will be in Reno. He said he wanted to come along, and I said of course you can come, instead of flying home from Reno fly to Florida and join us instead. I said I already have the hotel, he just needs airline tickets to Florida and then back home, and a ticket to Disney world. Of course, now he says he doesn't think he can afford it, pretty sure he's already booked his flights. But I invited him to come, just told him he had to pay his own way. Now it's his choice.


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## mace17

I know this thread is kind of old now and pretty much buried. Just needed to vent again, I do appreciate everybody who took the time to give advice and I'm sorry I haven't listened to some of it. It's always harder when you are in the middle of the situation. 

My marriage almost ended about a month ago, but then I wasn't strong enough and fell for the same old crap. I posted on another thread on here that I had caught him smoking pot in the garage and reminded him that the last time I'd caught him I told him if it happened again it was over. Unfortunately, I put off the whole discussion because it was a very busy time, my mom was coming to visit for the weekend and then she had a heart attack at my house and I spent the next few days in the hospital with her. I finally had a chance to talk to him almost a week after the incident, and told him exactly how I felt. He kept apologizing, said he knew he screwed up and it wouldn't happen again. I didn't exactly trust that because he's said the same things before and it's happened again. I told him I didn't know exactly what to do and I needed time to think about it. 

I got the silent treatment for a couple days, then he started being extremely affectionate and going out of his way to do nice things for me and our son. Of course my first thought was that he just wanted to get laid, since with being busy and all the tension it had been over a week at this point. He assured me that he was really trying to do better because he loved me and didn't want to lose me. I told him that I appreciated everything he was doing, and that I was going to give it a couple days to see if it stuck, since I have seen this pattern before too. 

It lasted exactly 2 days, then on a Saturday morning he just blew up. He accused me of trying to tell him how to think all the time, pretty much for our whole relationship. He said I was exactly like his ex, and that's why he used to escape from her and smoke pot alot. Then he accused me of using sex as a weapon. Said that I had been withholding it for over a week now to punish him even though he had been being really nice, and that sometimes I acted like I was tired and not interested in sex and that wasn't fair to him. He went on and on about how badly I have treated him through our whole relationship and how he wasn't happy, and that he was thinking of going out to find a woman who would appreciate him and f*** him as much as he wanted. I tried to explain that if I was upset about something it would sometimes make me feel "not in the mood" and he said there was something wrong with me because most women want sex all the time and don't care about feelings and emotions. I guess that's how his ex was. He also wanted me to stop seeing my therapist because he said it was driving us farther apart.

So the upshot of all this is that I was really thrown off balance, first he was being nice and telling me he loved me and didn't want to lose me, the next day telling me how horrible I had been treating him for years. I just lost it and cried all morning, he finally came to comfort me and said he could forgive me and we could start over, as long as I didn't continue to treat him badly in those ways anymore. As screwed up in the head as I was as the time, I was grateful that I was getting a second chance and promised to do better. I felt like I had just surrendered and that my only chance to peace and happiness was to give up and try to be the perfect wife he wants. Things went back to normal and calm again after that. 

Ok so after a few days of calm I realized that I had been masterfully manipulated and fallen for it again. I did try to discuss some of the things he had said but of course he didn't remember saying any of that and I must be imagining things. The peace at home is nice, but the cost to me has been high. On the bright side, my son seems happier with his dad than he has in a long time so I guess that's a good thing. I just feel stuck, knowing that I was played for a fool.


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## turnera

Thank God you woke up and realized how artfully he manipulated you. 

When are you moving out?


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## mace17

You know how they say hindsight is 20/20? I wish I would quit falling for this crap a a recognize it while it's happening! Oh and turnera, if anybody leaves it won't be me, I've done everything in this house and I'll fight for it.


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## turnera

Ok, when are you divorcing him?


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## Prodigal

I didn't know he was a pot head. It may account for a lot of his apathy towards his son. I've never known anyone who smoked dope who was energetic ... other than eating when a bad case of the muchies hit.

Itt sounds like he's spewing the typical addict garbage in attacking/manipulating you. I agree 100% with tunera. Divorce his worthless a$$.

When you issue an ultimatum and don't follow through on it, he knows he can continue to behave as he does.

This is game playing at its best. Say what you mean and mean what you say. It's that simple.


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## mace17

I guess that could be it, I don't even know how much he smokes. He works at a place where anything goes, everybody has some kind of drugs there and they all use openly. So he could get it and use it as much as he wants at work and I would never know. I even told him that, just keep it there instead of bringing it home. I really don't know what to do, and Turnera I know what you're going to say. It's easier said than done, I don't want to be selfish and hurt anybody. I get along great with his family and I know our son loves him despite how he is distant and critical at times. Still weighing the pros and cons of everything.


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## turnera

It's not that difficult, mace. Tell his family you love them and consider them family, but you can't live with their son/brother/nephew any more. Can you still hang out with them? 

There. Problem solved.


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## Prodigal

mace17 said:


> I really don't know what to do ... It's easier said than done, I don't want to be selfish and hurt anybody.


Sure, it's easier said than done, but it's done everyday. You don't want to hurt anybody. Well, sadly enough, we all hurt people, even if we don't intend to do it.

Attempting to create a world where everyone loves/likes you, nobody ever gets hurt by you or hurts you in return, and being motivated by complete selflessness ... it just doesn't exist.

Welcome to life.

Everybody gets hurt. Everybody hurts someone else. We are all selfish. We all lie, be it a little white lie or a whopper. 

My guess is you are scared sh!tless that your husband and his family will turn their backs on you and talk down about you.

So what? Hey, if I let other people's opinions of me dictate my decisions, I'd still be living with a crazy drunk.


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