# wife and girls only holiday



## goyaboard1

Hi All.
my wife is due to go on a girls only holiday soon. the closer it gets the more anxious i feel about it. I don't want to be controlling or over possesive but i am realy not that comfortable with the whole concept of a girls only holiday in the sun. Why is there a need to do this, I just don't get it.
She also did this last year when we were going through a tough time. My mind played all sorts of tricks on me then and most likely will this time.

my wife has asked if I am ok with this. I say i am not thrilled about it but if it makes you happy then go for it .


what do you guys think about the whole girls only holiday thing?


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## Caribbean Man

goyaboard1 said:


> I don't want to be controlling or over possesive but i am realy not that comfortable with the whole concept of a girls only holiday in the sun. Why is there a need to do this, I just don't get it.


People go on vacation trips for lots of reasons , one being because it creates opportunities to see new places , meet new people and do different stuff.
It's only natural .
If she went on the trip last year with her lady friends and nothing wrong happened ,despite your uneasiness , then logically , your fears aren't justified.

Do you know her girlfriends?
Are they the kind of friends that are friends of your marriage?

If you answered yes to both questions , then I wouldn't really have a problem with it , unless it was an unsafe destination.

Would both of you be open to the idea of a vacation together?
If yes, then maybe you should take the lead and start planning for next year.


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## ScarletBegonias

I don't go for "friends only" holidays.If I'm spending our money on something and using vacation days it's going toward more time with my husband. 

It seems a lot of women do these girl's only holiday things but I just can't understand why. It would feel like wasting my time off if I wasn't spending it with DH doing something fun.


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## Theseus

goyaboard1 said:


> what do you guys think about the whole girls only holiday thing?


You don't give us much background here.

In principle, I have no problem with it. After all, I might take a hunting trip, or something similar with my male friends that my wife won't be interested in.

The only cases in which it would bother me is if we were very tight on money, and her taking the girls trip would take away a trip of ours together. 

Or if I thought she was unfaithful. Has she ever given you any reason to believe she is unfaithful? If not, then get over yourself. You can't watch her every minute of your life, and will just have to let go and trust her someday.


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## Pault

I come from a corner where I dont agree with it. 

You seem, from your post to be really anxious over this. You admit to some head games as well. That is NOT going to just disappear and when your W is away I suspect (as it is now) your head will be running all sorts of whats happeneing scenarios.

Personally I would NEVER go on a lads only holiday. Ive see many where people I was (note was) friendly with go, and then one of the group strayed off the line. On return there was the "what goes on tour stays on tour" discussions. I was made aware (as you do) of what went on. Months later the truth came out and a marridge was busted. 
Yes, there are innocent holidays etc but I'm always aware that if your gut isnt happy and your anxious then either you have to go and do the same as your partner and have these holidays or you say it as it is and come clean. Tell her fully without playing it down. Im no happy about i, Im concerned for X, Y Z reasons. Then ask her if she happy for you to go with a bunch of lads on a similar holiday - if she hesitates youve got your response.


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## Jellybeans

Either you trust her or you don't.


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## anchorwatch

How passive aggressive is this statement, "I am not thrilled about it, but if it makes you happy then go for it". Sounds like you are trying to make her feel guilty about going? Don't you see that as controlling behavior on your part? I'm sure she does. 

I go off golf trips with the guys, and DW will go off to the shore with the gals. I don't get bothered. We both know the participants, what activities go on, and are comfortable with them. If we weren't, it's a boundary that wouldn't be crossed. We work that out when things like this come up, though upfront communication. We'll have discussions about our concerns with the activities as compared to wanting eachother to enjoy an experience. It's good for the soul to have individual activities too.(and the sex is always a bit more passionate when we get back) 

If you are anxious about it why don't sit her down and talk it out with her, instead of begrudgingly agreeing. She might actually have empathy for your concerns and work with you to alleviate them.


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## Married but Happy

I'd be fine with it, unless - perhaps - her friends had a history of promiscuous behavior or cheating, in which case they are likely to use the trip to do so again and that could have a negative influence on my spouse.


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## DoF

ScarletBegonias said:


> I don't go for "friends only" holidays.If I'm spending our money on something and using vacation days it's going toward more time with my husband.
> 
> It seems a lot of women do these girl's only holiday things but I just can't understand why. It would feel like wasting my time off if I wasn't spending it with DH doing something fun.


This x100

I simply see 0 appeal into vacation without my loved one. Heck it actually seems not very enjoyable AT ALL.

Mind you, I wouldn't mind if my wife wanted to go, under assumption that she has a clean history record AND most importantly, she has GOOD friends. By good friends I mean, once that are in HEALTHY marriage (not single) and ones that support your marriage as well.


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## IndyTMI

My fiance and I were just speaking about this the other day and both agreed that these are not what normal loving couples would engage in.

Something's not quite right with your relationship if you'd rather spend vacation with friends than your lover.


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## SadSamIAm

Depends on what the 'vacation' is. I go on a golf trip with buddies a couple of times a year. My wife has gone for a weekend to the mountains with girl friends to site see and golf. I don't have a problem with these types.

But last summer my wife went to a Country Music Jamboree with a couple of girl friends. I really didn't like her going on that kind of a vacation. Too many people partying and looking to hook up.


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## Faithful Wife

IndyTMI said:


> Something's not quite right with your relationship if you'd rather spend vacation with friends than your lover.


Aw, c'mon now. We all have different circumstances. My husband and I are empty nesters and have plenty of time together, plus plenty of vacations together (an annual for at least 3 weeks plus another week or two of 4-day weekends during the year).

Therefore, if my BFF or sister and a couple other girls and I go for a weekend to the beach or Vegas, it doesn't take any time away from my marriage...my husband and I are nearly on top of each other all the time! We actually need the break once in awhile! 

My H also has a friend who I don't like hanging out with for more than a few hours (nothing against him, though) so when he wants to visit this friend in another city, I always send him without me with my blessings...though he always invites me.

He would not want to be on my girl trips, either. Totally NOT his idea of a good time.

If we could not afford for me to go on these separate trips, we wouldn't budget the money for it, but since we can, it is awesome.


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## Anon Pink

I go on girls weekend at the beach twice a year.

1. I'm a beach bum and can never get enough of it while my H can't tolerate maybe 4 hours on the beach.

2. It's fabulous to spend an entire day on the beach with my BFFs who also love the beach and can't get enough of it.

3. It's even better to spend a weekend on the beach with no one else to worry about. Love my kids and husband but I hate hearing, "I'm bored. Can I go back. I'm hungry what did you pack?" Or "I've had too much sun. It's too hot I'm going back, what's for dinner..."

4. My BFFs have the exact same issue, all of us except one married men who don't like sitting on the beach and all of us spent our college summers working and living at the beach.

5. We sit in the sun under an umbrella, we drink when we want, eat when we want, carry only what we ourselves want to have with us. It's a lightness of not having to care for anyone else that just doesn't happen with the family in tow.

6. We usually meet up with other "moms only" groups since we go the same time every year.

7. Our whole group are cancer survivors and we started going the year I got cancer, when we realized we might not always have the opportunity to be together. 

We've all been friends since we were 12 and 14, we're all married with kids, we're all survivors, we've all lost parents and been caregivers. We've given and given and survived! Two weekends a year to only concern ourselves with ourselves and whatever the hell we feel like doing is not to much to ask. YMMV.


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## Wolf1974

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I totally disprove of spouses going on separate vacations of any kind.
> I don't care how well intentioned, I don't care if the other spouse gives consent.
> 
> I am from the old school I guess....you vacation together. I think you can be borrowing trouble.
> 
> If you truly disapprove...then you should say so. If she gets mad...she has the same shoes to get glad in. The issue then for her becomes choice. If she chooses to go against your wishes....you have underlying issues...called selfishness.


:iagree:

As usual spot on with Mrs Adams. But to be fair OP in your post you seem washy washy about telling her you are ok about her going. You aren't ok with her going so you need to be direct and to the point and go from there. 

Out of curiosity, assuming her girlfriends aren't single, why are their husbands and boyfriends not going?


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## Wolf1974

Faithful Wife said:


> Aw, c'mon now. We all have different circumstances. My husband and I are empty nesters and have plenty of time together, plus plenty of vacations together (an annual for at least 3 weeks plus another week or two of 4-day weekends during the year).
> 
> Therefore, if my BFF or sister and a couple other girls and I go for a weekend to the beach or Vegas, it doesn't take any time away from my marriage...my husband and I are nearly on top of each other all the time! We actually need the break once in awhile!
> 
> My H also has a friend who I don't like hanging out with for more than a few hours (nothing against him, though) so when he wants to visit this friend in another city, I always send him without me with my blessings...though he always invites me.
> 
> He would not want to be on my girl trips, either. Totally NOT his idea of a good time.
> 
> If we could not afford for me to go on these separate trips, we wouldn't budget the money for it, but since we can, it is awesome.


Think that's great that you guys trust and have the finances to do this. Time is the big thing for me. I work crazy long hours and have busy weekends. Only time I get pure relaxing time is vacation and no one I would rather be with than my SO. If I was retired and had more me and her time I may feel more like this about it.


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## Tall Average Guy

goyaboard1 said:


> Hi All.
> my wife is due to go on a girls only holiday soon. the closer it gets the more anxious i feel about it. I don't want to be controlling or over possesive but i am realy not that comfortable with the whole concept of a girls only holiday in the sun. Why is there a need to do this, I just don't get it.
> She also did this last year when we were going through a tough time. My mind played all sorts of tricks on me then and most likely will this time.
> 
> my wife has asked if I am ok with this. I say i am not thrilled about it but if it makes you happy then go for it .
> 
> 
> what do you guys think about the whole girls only holiday thing?


I think the real question is why are you uncomfortable with your wife doing this?

It does not matter a lick what any of us think. Different things work for different couples. What matters is that you are uncomfortable with it and apparently can't be honest enough with your wife to say so. You need to:

1) Figure out why you are uncomfortable; and

2) Talk to your wife about it.


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## Faithful Wife

We spent easily 20 hours per week together doing stuff as it is, Wolf! I love it, wouldn't have it any other way...and I STILL miss him when we're not together! When I am on a vacation without him, I'm still texting him and calling him every day.


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## JCD

Everyone needs some time to recharge. There are times when I am with the family that I essentially kick them out of my area of the house just for a bit of peace and privacy.

Why would my wife be any different?

That being said, context matters. My wife approached me with an invitation she got from one of her friends. This woman was openly 'husband' shopping. And if she couldn't find a husband, a one night stand was a suitable consolation prize.

She wanted my wife to join her at Vegas. I said no. My wife didn't need to be a wing man or 'bait' for her friend...or someone to 'entertain' the wing man of any target her friend sought.

I explained this to her. And because she is fair and bright, she acknowledged that THIS vacation was a bad idea.

I think if she was with some people I trusted, I would have no problem with her recharging her batteries a little bit. She is CONSTANTLY with the kids.

So context matters. And when I tell her I am against her vacation, it is not because I don't trust her. It is because our time together (too seldom) is very precious to me. I also don't want her to be thrust into an uncomfortable situation because of some bad choices by one of her friends.

It's like a bunch of guys going fishing and the lowest common denominator in the group pushes hard to go to a strip club or brothel. It is hard to be the 'goodie two shoes' sometimes.

That being said, either be for it or against it. It is unfair to ruin the trip for her because YOU feel sad.

My one (1) red flag is you say the marriage is troubled. Well...most infidelity occurs because of 'grievances' (not necessarily valid...and not necessarily INvalid) Suddenly being let off her leash and hating on you with some alcohol...not a good mix.

But you can't stop it. It would hurt just as much if she did it at home as on vacation.

I'd let her go.


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## anchorwatch

IndyTMI said:


> My fiance and I were just speaking about this the other day and both agreed that these are not what normal loving couples would engage in.
> 
> Something's not quite right with your relationship if you'd rather spend vacation with friends than your lover.


Well I'm glad that works for you both. Though I don't think you should paint the rest of the world with such a broad brush. Maybe you have too few days to spare? 

DW and I have been a loving relationship since '73. Our yearly vacations and travels together are a priority for us as a couple. We've already planed out this year and a good part of next year. We're very excited about it. It hasn't proved to be a problem for us all these years, to take few days for ourselves to enjoy an activity with same sex friends. All our LTR fiends do the same. 

My wife doesn't play golf, and when it comes to fishing, she gets ill at the though of leaving the bay. So she has no interest in doing these things with me. I enjoy these activities, they calm me and rejuvenate me. OTOH, I have no interest in shopping the village boutiques or hanging around while she gets a mani-pedi and lounging with the ladies, who have zero intentions about going into the water with their new nails and salon hair cuts. BTW, We do a weekend, each year for a mineral bath and massage, just the two of us. A separate jaunt doesn't take away from the romantic time we need together.


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## Marduk

All I can say is this.

When my marriage was on the rocks, girl's trips were a deal breaker. Why? Because our marriage was on the rocks and deep down I didn't trust her.

When my marriage is not on the rocks, girl's trips don't bother me at all. I'm not naturally insecure, and when we're in a good place I don't sweat it.

I'd say a marriage that's on the rocks is no time for a girl's trip. But who knows, it may give you both perspective.

I say if she goes on one, you plan one yourself, too.


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## Juicer

I can understand if it was something like a business trip. 
I had to go on those all the time when I was younger. And the xwife at the time, understood it was part of my job. And she trusted me. Or at least acted like she did. 

But my business trips didn't involve going out, with a bunch of friends, to some vacation spot for singles, to cruise for poon. 

With my current situation, I'd tell her no. If she didn't like it, then I'd make sure her furniture is in her new apartment or on the lawn by the time she gets back. 

When the marriage is on the rocks, vacation time with your friends, without your spouses, is not the answer. 
It's how you make a bad situation worse.


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## JCD

goyaboard1 said:


> Hi All.
> my wife is due to go on a girls only holiday soon. the closer it gets the more anxious i feel about it. I don't want to be controlling or over possesive but i am realy not that comfortable with the whole concept of a girls only holiday in the sun. Why is there a need to do this, I just don't get it.
> She also did this last year when we were going through a tough time. My mind played all sorts of tricks on me then and most likely will this time.
> 
> my wife has asked if I am ok with this. I say i am not thrilled about it but if it makes you happy then go for it .
> 
> 
> what do you guys think about the whole girls only holiday thing?


You need to be a lot more specific on WHERE they are going.

A trip to Cape May beach with some married and discreet girlfriends is a lot different than one to Cabo or Hedonism II with a few newly divorced skanks in training.


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## Machiavelli

JCD said:


> You need to be a lot more specific on WHERE they are going.
> 
> A trip to Cape May beach with some married and discreet girlfriends is a lot different than one *to Cabo or Hedonism II* with a few newly divorced skanks in training.


Context is everything.

I agree that if OP's wife goes on a vacation with her girlfriends, then OP needs to also go on a vacation with his girlfriends as well for the same period.


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## Caribbean Man

Machiavelli said:


> Context is everything.
> 
> I agree that if OP's wife goes on a vacation with her girlfriends, *then OP needs to also go on a vacation with his girlfriends as well for the same period.*


Mach...

Thanks for the hearty laugh!:rofl:


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## Machiavelli

Caribbean Man said:


> Mach...
> 
> Thanks for the hearty laugh!:rofl:


I'm all about equality between the sexes.


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## soccermom2three

My husband goes on golf or hunting trips with his friends or family and I go to spa weekends with my girlfriends. No big deal.

I think it depends on the destination. Las Vegas would be out, for example. In just the past few years, we've had 3 people we know that were given roofies in their drinks and drinks came directly from the bar.


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## weightlifter

Context for the win.

South beach miami, dance clubbing, male reviews, vegas? Uh no. Goes both ways btw.

Christian retreat, random beach florida, golfing, cape may, leaf watching. Yes. Not thrilled but in the end your spouse needs a life.

Who with? Single or divorced?

Etc. context is everything.


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## sh987

goyaboard1 said:


> my wife has asked if I am ok with this. I say i am not thrilled about it but if it makes you happy then go for it .


Stop that. If you're not comfortable with it, then damn well say so. If you're not then don't set her up with the passive aggressive shtick. You have every right not to like it, but you also have the obligation to tell her so.

Oh, and because you asked: I don't agree at all with the idea of separate vacations. For those who are fine with it, that's great, but that isn't me (or my wife).


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## 6301

goyaboard1 said:


> Hi All.
> my wife is due to go on a girls only holiday soon. the closer it gets the more anxious i feel about it. I don't want to be controlling or over possesive but i am realy not that comfortable with the whole concept of a girls only holiday in the sun. Why is there a need to do this, I just don't get it.
> She also did this last year when we were going through a tough time. My mind played all sorts of tricks on me then and most likely will this time.
> 
> my wife has asked if I am ok with this. I say i am not thrilled about it but if it makes you happy then go for it .
> 
> 
> what do you guys think about the whole girls only holiday thing?


 I have a question. Have you ever went on a vacation with your buddies? If not and you said to your wife that you and a few friends were going on one, you know her better than us so how do you think she would feel about it and do you think she would kick up a fuss? Do you think she would get pissed if you did it two years in a row?

One more. Do you and her take vacations together?

A lot of people don't agree with the "what's good for the goose is good for the gander policy"


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## GettingIt_2

I've been vacationing with my three best girlfriends for ten years. My husband doesn't really like to go places on vacation, even when he can afford to take the time off work. 

It's a blast--four grown women, seven kids, and usually a dog. We loll on the beach and read trashy magazines and let the kids watch as much TV and eat as much junk as they want. 

The year we all turned forty we ditched the kids and went on four long weekend trips--just the women. It was divine . . . and the only time I've had vacation time away without the kids in thirteen years. 

I think I'm due . . .


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## EleGirl

goyaboard1 said:


> Hi All.
> my wife is due to go on a girls only holiday soon. the closer it gets the more anxious i feel about it. I don't want to be controlling or over possesive but i am realy not that comfortable with the whole concept of a girls only holiday in the sun. Why is there a need to do this, I just don't get it.
> She also did this last year when we were going through a tough time. My mind played all sorts of tricks on me then and most likely will this time.
> 
> my wife has asked if I am ok with this. I say i am not thrilled about it but if it makes you happy then go for it .
> 
> 
> what do you guys think about the whole girls only holiday thing?


You leave out some important information.

How many days is she going to spend on the holiday/trip?

What other things that your wife wants to do, do you object to?

How many vacations/holidays a year do you take with your wife?


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## EleGirl

Juicer said:


> I can understand if it was something like a business trip.
> I had to go on those all the time when I was younger. And the xwife at the time, understood it was part of my job. And she trusted me. Or at least acted like she did.
> 
> But my business trips didn't involve going out, with a bunch of friends, to some vacation spot for singles, to cruise for poon.


Why do you assume that any time that women take a few days for some time together they are going to be cruising for poon? My sisters, friends and I have done all female trips/vacations. The last thing we have in mind is cruising for ‘poon’. We go to enjoy the beach, boating, shopping, dinner out, shows and most of all just being together as women. 

If a woman is going to cheat, she can do that in her home town. She does not need to take a trip to find some guy to cheat with.


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## Theseus

Frankly I am rather shocked by the number of people who think that taking a holiday with friends is wrong for them under all circumstances. Scarlett, PaulT, Mrs. Adams, DoF, Indy, Wolf, Juicer, and sh987, do you have any friends at all other than your spouse? I'm not asking that to be insulting, it is a serious question. In other threads, there are a lot of people on TAM who have admitted they have no longer have any friends outside their marriage. 

Just to respond to one comment directly:



IndyTMI said:


> My fiance and I were just speaking about this the other day and both agreed that these are not what normal loving couples would engage in.
> 
> Something's not quite right with your relationship if you'd rather spend vacation with friends than your lover.


Why? Let's extend your logic out:


Something's not quite right with your relationship if you'd rather *go shopping *with friends than your lover

Something's not quite right with your relationship if you'd rather *watch the football game* with friends than your lover

Something's not quite right with your relationship if you'd rather *go hunting* with friends than your lover

Something's not quite right with your relationship if you'd rather *take a sewing class* with friends than your lover

If you go with this philosopy, then something is wrong with a person if she/she wants to spend *any time at all* with friends instead of their spouse. And that is a VERY unhealthy attitude in a marriage.


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## goyaboard1

Hi All and thanks for the many replies.
to put things into context; I don't think its a "fault" on my wifes part that she wants to take a sunny break with her pals, it s more a fault on my part for feeling the way I do about it.
in trying to work out why it bothers me I came up with this;
we have only been back together 9 months after 6 months apart
following the ILYBNILWY. line , so feeling a little insecure still.
Secondly, some of the group are single and one is recent divorced.
the break is for 5 days in Malaga and the idea is to chill out on the beach during the day, get dressed up in the evening, have a meal and then hit the clubs.

yes , we do have vacation together but, having said that, i did try to book us one for mid june together but my wife said its too soon after her girlie break..


so, after reading through this, a lot of the problem is down to my insecurity and i have to deal with that. Of course I want my wife to be happy and have a good time but I do have concerns that she may be putting herself in a situation where things could go wrong.
I have spoken to my wife about how I feel, she said yes things could go wrong but they won't.

all the best


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## Caribbean Man

goyaboard1 said:


> Hi All and thanks for the many replies.
> to put things into context; I don't think its a "fault" on my wifes part that she wants to take a sunny break with her pals, it s more a fault on my part for feeling the way I do about it.
> in trying to work out why it bothers me I came up with this;
> 
> *we have only been back together 9 months after 6 months apart
> following the ILYBNILWY. line , so feeling a little insecure still.
> Secondly, some of the group are single and one is recent divorced.
> the break is for 5 days in Malaga and the idea is to chill out on the beach during the day, get dressed up in the evening, have a meal and then hit the clubs.*
> 
> *yes , we do have vacation together but, having said that, i did try to book us one for mid june together but my wife said its too soon after her girlie break..*
> 
> 
> so, after reading through this, a lot of the problem is down to my insecurity and i have to deal with that. Of course I want my wife to be happy and have a good time but I do have concerns that she may be putting herself in a situation where things could go wrong.
> I have spoken to my wife about how I feel, she said yes things could go wrong but they won't.
> 
> all the best


Seems to me that based on what you posted above, your concerns are very legitimate.
I would have to agree with the others who said no to this vacation.

First of all , things in your marriage aren't good.
Secondly the whole clubbing scene with friends who are either single or divorced doesn't sound too good either.

Your wife gave you the ILYBNILWY speech , and you guys were recently separated.
Now she's saying her girls only vacation is more important than a vacation with you.
Your feelings of insecurity probably stems from the fact that you nor the marriage don't seem to be a priority for her.
Right now, seem as if you are an option to her.

How long are you prepared to remain just an option?


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## Mostlycontent

goyaboard1 said:


> Hi All and thanks for the many replies.
> to put things into context; I don't think its a "fault" on my wifes part that she wants to take a sunny break with her pals, it s more a fault on my part for feeling the way I do about it.
> in trying to work out why it bothers me I came up with this;
> we have only been back together 9 months after 6 months apart
> following the ILYBNILWY. line , so feeling a little insecure still.
> *Secondly, some of the group are single and one is recent divorced.
> the break is for 5 days in Malaga and the idea is to chill out on the beach during the day, get dressed up in the evening, have a meal and then hit the clubs.*
> 
> yes , we do have vacation together but, having said that, i did try to book us one for mid june together but my wife said its too soon after her girlie break..
> 
> 
> so, after reading through this, a lot of the problem is down to my insecurity and i have to deal with that. Of course I want my wife to be happy and have a good time but I do have concerns that she may be putting herself in a situation where things could go wrong.
> I have spoken to my wife about how I feel, she said yes things could go wrong but they won't.
> 
> all the best


Based on this post alone, my answer wouldn't just be no, it would be Hell No.


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## naiveonedave

6 months after the ILYBNILWY line, your lady should not be clubbing w/o you. No way in h3ll. This is not your insecurity that is hte problem, it is your wifes problem.


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## Pault

Well having just seen your last post "yes , we do have vacation together but, having said that, i did try to book us one for mid june together but my wife said its too soon after her girlie break.."

I have one thing to say......... So YOU and YOUR holidays with your wife come second to the girly trip?????

In my world that would be a "hang on lady! WE come FIRST girls second." "Make other arrangements.


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## weightlifter

>following the ILYBNILWY. line , so feeling a little insecure still.
Secondly, some of the group are single and one is recent divorced.
the break is for 5 days in Malaga and the idea is to chill out on the beach during the day, get dressed up in the evening, have a meal and then hit the clubs.

yes , we do have vacation together but, having said that, i did try to book us one for mid june together but my wife said its too soon after her girlie break.<

WOW. This one turned a 180.

This one went from a "why not" to AYFKM HELL no.

She is going clubbing after beaching at a place noted for sex six months after giving you the #2 external sign of a cheater. (IMHO #1 is phone guarding). Bonus is single peeps and one recent divorce.

YOUR WIFE IS A WING WOMAN!

Final bonus is she does not want to vacation with you.

Of course she is trolling for hot guys. OTOH if you have major coin, hire the PI and get the evidence you need to file for divorce and be done with it.

Not quite sure if Ive ever seen such a fast turn on a thread.


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## Chaparral

goyaboard1 said:


> Hi All and thanks for the many replies.
> to put things into context; I don't think its a "fault" on my wifes part that she wants to take a sunny break with her pals, it s more a fault on my part for feeling the way I do about it.
> in trying to work out why it bothers me I came up with this;
> we have only been back together 9 months after 6 months apart
> following the ILYBNILWY. line , so feeling a little insecure still.
> Secondly, some of the group are single and one is recent divorced.
> the break is for 5 days in Malaga and the idea is to chill out on the beach during the day, get dressed up in the evening, have a meal and then hit the clubs.
> 
> yes , we do have vacation together but, having said that, i did try to book us one for mid june together but my wife said its too soon after her girlie break..
> 
> 
> so, after reading through this, a lot of the problem is down to my insecurity and i have to deal with that. Of course I want my wife to be happy and have a good time but I do have concerns that she may be putting herself in a situation where things could go wrong.
> I have spoken to my wife about how I feel, she said yes things could go wrong but they won't.
> 
> all the best


I would tell her not to come back. The ILYBNILWY is just cheater speak. The group she is going with sounds like the worse she could pick. Clubbing? Omg

You need to read MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER. You sound like she isn't very attracted to you.


----------



## Chaparral

EleGirl said:


> Why do you assume that any time that women take a few days for some time together they are going to be cruising for poon? My sisters, friends and I have done all female trips/vacations. The last thing we have in mind is cruising for ‘poon’. We go to enjoy the beach, boating, shopping, dinner out, shows and most of all just being together as women.
> 
> If a woman is going to cheat, she can do that in her home town. She does not need to take a trip to find some guy to cheat with.


Uuuuuuuuuuhhhhh, since seventy percent of men AND women are claiming they would like to have an affair if they KNEW they wouldn't get caught...........


----------



## Tall Average Guy

goyaboard1 said:


> Hi All and thanks for the many replies.
> to put things into context; I don't think its a "fault" on my wifes part that she wants to take a sunny break with her pals, it s more a fault on my part for feeling the way I do about it.
> in trying to work out why it bothers me I came up with this;
> we have only been back together 9 months after 6 months apart
> following the ILYBNILWY. line , so feeling a little insecure still.
> Secondly, some of the group are single and one is recent divorced.
> the break is for 5 days in Malaga and the idea is to chill out on the beach during the day, get dressed up in the evening, have a meal and then hit the clubs.
> 
> yes , we do have vacation together but, having said that, i did try to book us one for mid june together but my wife said its too soon after her girlie break..
> 
> 
> so, after reading through this, a lot of the problem is down to my insecurity and i have to deal with that. Of course I want my wife to be happy and have a good time but I do have concerns that she may be putting herself in a situation where things could go wrong.
> I have spoken to my wife about how I feel, she said yes things could go wrong but they won't.
> 
> all the best


I don't think it ends there or that it necessarily means it is all or mostly down to your insecurity. part of that insecurity is based on her words and actions a very short time ago.

You now need to decide what this means for you. It sounds like she is going even though you told her it makes you feel uncomfortable. Have you explained why you are insecure? That her going clubbing on a vacation without you a mere 9 months after she said she is not in love with you seems problematic?

Be clear to her about why you have your feelings. And if she still decides to go, you now need to decide whether that is a problem for you.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

goyaboard1 said:


> Hi All and thanks for the many replies.
> to put things into context; I don't think its a "fault" on my wifes part that she wants to take a sunny break with her pals, it s more a fault on my part for feeling the way I do about it.
> in trying to work out why it bothers me I came up with this;
> we have only been back together 9 months after 6 months apart
> following the ILYBNILWY. line , so feeling a little insecure still.
> Secondly, some of the group are single and one is recent divorced.
> the break is for 5 days in Malaga and the idea is to chill out on the beach during the day, get dressed up in the evening, have a meal and then hit the clubs.
> 
> yes , we do have vacation together but, having said that, i did try to book us one for mid june together but my wife said its too soon after her girlie break..
> 
> 
> so, after reading through this, a lot of the problem is down to my insecurity and i have to deal with that. Of course I want my wife to be happy and have a good time but I do have concerns that she may be putting herself in a situation where things could go wrong.
> I have spoken to my wife about how I feel, she said yes things could go wrong but they won't.
> 
> all the best


The term insecure is often not used properly. 

Everyone uses it as a description of a negative emotional state. An unhealthy emotional state that shows the person feeling insecure is weak or having an issue within their own psyche. You are also doing this.

Literally it means (adjective) (of a person) not confident or assured; uncertain and anxious.

Notice it doesn't say "with no reason".

Your wife has given you TONS AND TONS of reasons "not to be confident or assured" in your marriage.

She gave you the ILYBNILWY speech just over a year ago. I assume you got back together because she realized she IS in love with you. The problem is she's not showing it. Telling your spouse ILYBNILWY is one of the biggest hits to their security. She should be in rebuilding mode. She needs to PROVE to you that she's into you.

You NEED to explain your TRUE emotional state. YOU ARE OK to not be confident in your marriage. PS don't saying insecure, say confident or not confident. Your wife needs to rebuild that. PS listen to these two sentences.

1. we have only been back together 9 months after 6 months apart following the ILYBNILWY. line , so feeling a little insecure still. (sounds like you're weak)

2. we have only been back together 9 months after 6 months apart following the ILYBNILWY. line , so I'm not feeling confident in our marriage yet. (sounds like you're strong with criteria that needs to be met).


----------



## IndyTMI

Theseus said:


> Frankly I am rather shocked by the number of people who think that taking a holiday with friends is wrong for them under all circumstances. Scarlett, PaulT, Mrs. Adams, DoF, Indy, Wolf, Juicer, and sh987, do you have any friends at all other than your spouse? I'm not asking that to be insulting, it is a serious question. In other threads, there are a lot of people on TAM who have admitted they have no longer have any friends outside their marriage.
> 
> Just to respond to one comment directly:
> 
> 
> 
> Why? Let's extend your logic out:
> 
> 
> Something's not quite right with your relationship if you'd rather *go shopping *with friends than your lover
> 
> Something's not quite right with your relationship if you'd rather *watch the football game* with friends than your lover
> 
> Something's not quite right with your relationship if you'd rather *go hunting* with friends than your lover
> 
> Something's not quite right with your relationship if you'd rather *take a sewing class* with friends than your lover
> 
> If you go with this philosopy, then something is wrong with a person if she/she wants to spend *any time at all* with friends instead of their spouse. And that is a VERY unhealthy attitude in a marriage.


Those you outlined are short timed events, not a vacation that would normally consist of more than a couple of days, so the philosophy you are trying to apply doesn't quite fit.
I have no problem spending time with friends, but just can't see it for an extended time like a vacation.

I go target shooting with friends. Sometimes my fiance joins me, other times she doesn't. I also go woods riding on my dirt bike that she doesn't join along.


----------



## SadSamIAm

IndyTMI said:


> Those you outlined are short timed events, not a vacation that would normally consist of more than a couple of days, so the philosophy you are trying to apply doesn't quite fit.
> I have no problem spending time with friends, but just can't see it for an extended time like a vacation.
> 
> I go target shooting with friends. Sometimes my fiance joins me, other times she doesn't. I also go woods riding on my dirt bike that she doesn't join along.


I go golfing with buddies. Isn't a vacation. Just four hours together.

But we also go on golf vacations where we go for 4 days or even a week. It is always a great time. Builds good friendships. I can see the same with my wife when she gets away with her girlfriends.

I echo what others say. It is good if your marriage is good. It is good if the activities are appropriate for someone who is married.


----------



## Machiavelli

Malaga, huh? Your wife is planning to go on safari. Guess what she's hunting? Rhino horn.


----------



## 6301

IMO, if I get the ILYBNILWY and we just got back together after a six month separation, honestly, I have a real problem with it and would feel like the plan B guy.

I asked this before and I ask again. How would she feel if you pulled the same thing on her? Think she wouldn't think something's fishy? 

If she didn't then either she's more trustworthy than me or while your gone, she's doing her thing.


----------



## EasyPartner

Dad&Hubby said:


> The term insecure is often not used properly.
> 
> Everyone uses it as a description of a negative emotional state. An unhealthy emotional state that shows the person feeling insecure is weak or having an issue within their own psyche. You are also doing this.
> 
> Literally it means (adjective) (of a person) not confident or assured; uncertain and anxious.
> 
> Notice it doesn't say "with no reason".
> 
> Your wife has given you TONS AND TONS of reasons "not to be confident or assured" in your marriage.
> 
> She gave you the ILYBNILWY speech just over a year ago. I assume you got back together because she realized she IS in love with you. The problem is she's not showing it. Telling your spouse ILYBNILWY is one of the biggest hits to their security. She should be in rebuilding mode. She needs to PROVE to you that she's into you.
> 
> You NEED to explain your TRUE emotional state. YOU ARE OK to not be confident in your marriage. PS don't saying insecure, say confident or not confident. Your wife needs to rebuild that. PS listen to these two sentences.
> 
> 1. we have only been back together 9 months after 6 months apart following the ILYBNILWY. line , so feeling a little insecure still. (sounds like you're weak)
> 
> 2. we have only been back together 9 months after 6 months apart following the ILYBNILWY. line , so I'm not feeling confident in our marriage yet. (sounds like you're strong with criteria that needs to be met).


:iagree:

After your first post, I didn't even bother reacting, another clingy insecure individual etc... like sheesh, your wife will be away a couple a days, deal with it. Hell, enjoy the calm and welcome her back in a big way is what I would do.

BUT

- Being back together after a -pretty recent- separation;

- This after the ILYB speech no less;

- Going to Malaga;

- With single/divorced gf's;

- To go clubbing??

NO WONDER YOU FEEL LIKE YOU DO!!! DUDE!!!

What is your wife thinking, that you're superhuman or something?

She and you should be planning your own vacation, like a second honeymoon, instead, to create some more magic or at least fun/positive and relaxed interaction between to two of you... but that you knew already... preaching for the choir here...

Unfortunately, it's a bit of a no-win situation for you... you can try D&H's second sentence... but if she goes off anyway, you'll be in a worse state than before (unless you decide to divorce her then, but then you will be divorced, which you don't want either).

Or she might decide to NOT go (but she will resent you for it).

Maybe try to compromise? Like honey, really, not this year FGS but later, fine... IDK.

Or you can choose to suck it up. Like other posters said, if she wants to cheat, she will, trip or no trip. It would be the stronger move, IMO. Well, at least the one that demands the most strength from you... 

No easy choices here.


----------



## karole

My husband and I have different interests (i.e., my husband loves to fish and I do not) as well as interests we share. Each of us spend time with our friends as well as time together. As long as we are not choosing time with our friends over time with each other, I do not see a problem with getaways with our respective friends.


----------



## tom67

Well
I would take a trip to Vegas right after she gets back.
Do you see a future with her? This does not look good but you know that.


----------



## barbados

goyaboard1 said:


> I don't think its a "fault" on my wifes part that she wants to take a sunny break with her pals, it s more a fault on my part for feeling the way I do about it.



No, its not. Not based on what you say next...



goyaboard1 said:


> in trying to work out why it bothers me I came up with this;
> *we have only been back together 9 months after 6 months apart
> following the ILYBNILWY. line *, so feeling a little insecure still.
> Secondly, some of the group are single and one is recent divorced.
> the break is for 5 days in Malaga and the idea is to chill out on the beach during the day,* get dressed up in the evening, have a meal and then hit the clubs.*
> 
> yes , we do have vacation together but, having said that, i did try to book us one for mid june together but my wife said its too soon after her girlie break..



Your relationship is on the rocks, she gave you the dreaded ILYBNILWY, and she is planning to go clubbing every night all dolled up with single and recently divorced women...

... and she wants no part of a vacation with you afterwards !

SHE IS GOING THERE WITH THE INTENTIONS OF CHEATING !!




goyaboard1 said:


> so, after reading through this, a lot of t*he problem is down to my insecurity* and i have to deal with that.


NO, the problem is you SHOULD be MEGA insecure because.....


SHE IS GOING THERE WITH THE INTENTIONS OF CHEATING !!


----------



## Wolf1974

Theseus said:


> Frankly I am rather shocked by the number of people who think that taking a holiday with friends is wrong for them under all circumstances. Scarlett, PaulT, Mrs. Adams, DoF, Indy, Wolf, Juicer, and sh987, do you have any friends at all other than your spouse? I'm not asking that to be insulting, it is a serious question. In other threads, there are a lot of people on TAM who have admitted they have no longer have any friends outside their marriage.
> 
> Just to respond to one comment directly:
> 
> 
> 
> Why? Let's extend your logic out:
> 
> 
> Something's not quite right with your relationship if you'd rather *go shopping *with friends than your lover
> 
> Something's not quite right with your relationship if you'd rather *watch the football game* with friends than your lover
> 
> Something's not quite right with your relationship if you'd rather *go hunting* with friends than your lover
> 
> Something's not quite right with your relationship if you'd rather *take a sewing class* with friends than your lover
> 
> If you go with this philosopy, then something is wrong with a person if she/she wants to spend *any time at all* with friends instead of their spouse. And that is a VERY unhealthy attitude in a marriage.


Wow the TAM assumption is strong with this one. Yes I have tons of friends, males and females, some of which I have had since I was 5 years old. Since you are placing one dimensional thinking ,as you see it ,on everyone else I will just explain my stance that works for me. 

No I don't spend every waking second with my GF. She has her GNO on occasion and we often go out as couples and do things together. Everyone has their passions in life and mine is travel. Since that is a passion of mine I look for LTR that have similar passions such as my GF who also loves to travel. We could spend more money on a house, vehicles, eating out every night or clothes....but we don't. We spend moderately so we can go on vacation. That is what WE enjoy and what WE choose to do. So if she came to me and said hey I want to go on vacation without you, just my Gf's, then that isn't going to sit well. Now sometimes that can't be helped. For example we both have elderly grandmothers who happen to have birthdays close together and we are taking trips to separate places to be with them on their special day. No issue with this. But if she was the kind of woman who would rather travel to places with her friends instead me, we wouldn't be together. This has nothing to do with worrying she would cheat, rather just wanting to spend time doing what I love with the person I love.

Really not that complicated. If others work something else out in their relationship that's great. This is what works for us.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Theseus said:


> Frankly I am rather shocked by the number of people who think that taking a holiday with friends is wrong for them under all circumstances. Scarlett, PaulT, Mrs. Adams, DoF, Indy, Wolf, Juicer, and sh987, do you have any friends at all other than your spouse? I'm not asking that to be insulting, it is a serious question. In other threads, there are a lot of people on TAM who have admitted they have no longer have any friends outside their marriage.
> 
> Just to respond to one comment directly:
> 
> 
> 
> Why? Let's extend your logic out:
> 
> 
> Something's not quite right with your relationship if you'd rather *go shopping *with friends than your lover
> 
> Something's not quite right with your relationship if you'd rather *watch the football game* with friends than your lover
> 
> Something's not quite right with your relationship if you'd rather *go hunting* with friends than your lover
> 
> Something's not quite right with your relationship if you'd rather *take a sewing class* with friends than your lover
> 
> If you go with this philosopy, then something is wrong with a person if she/she wants to spend *any time at all* with friends instead of their spouse. And that is a VERY unhealthy attitude in a marriage.


Please point out in my post where I said it was generally wrong or unacceptable. Please point out where I said ANYTHING negative about it. 

Kindly refer to the part where I said I don't do it and prefer spending time with my husband. Also,kindly refer to the part where I said it appears many women do it and I just don't understand it.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

ScarletBegonias said:


> I don't go for "friends only" holidays.If I'm spending our money on something and using vacation days it's going toward more time with my husband.
> 
> It seems a lot of women do these girl's only holiday things but I just can't understand why. It would feel like wasting my time off if I wasn't spending it with DH doing something fun.


Here,since it's ALLLL the way on the first page I quoted it for you so you can read it again. 

Now, where's the part referring to it being wrong or unacceptable??

ETA: I do have other friends and so does DH. We prefer the company of each other and if we're hanging out w/our friends we do it together. I don't knock people who do it separately,I just don't understand it bc that's not how we like it.


----------



## Anon Pink

goyaboard1 said:


> Hi All and thanks for the many replies.
> to put things into context; I don't think its a "fault" on my wifes part that she wants to take a sunny break with her pals, it s more a fault on my part for feeling the way I do about it.
> in trying to work out why it bothers me I came up with this;
> we have only been back together 9 months after 6 months apart
> following the ILYBNILWY. line , so feeling a little insecure still.
> Secondly, some of the group are single and one is recent divorced.
> the break is for 5 days in Malaga and the idea is to chill out on the beach during the day, get dressed up in the evening, have a meal and then hit the clubs.
> 
> yes , we do have vacation together but, having said that, i did try to book us one for mid june together but my wife said its too soon after her girlie break..
> 
> 
> so, after reading through this, a lot of the problem is down to my insecurity and i have to deal with that. Of course I want my wife to be happy and have a good time but I do have concerns that she may be putting herself in a situation where things could go wrong.
> I have spoken to my wife about how I feel, she said yes things could go wrong but they won't.
> 
> all the best


Your relationship is still too fragile for her to vacation without you AND with single friends. Newly divorced friend is even less marriage friendly.

Grow a pair of balls and tell her you are not comfortable with her going on this vacation because you feel the relationship is still in a fragile stage. Because the time apart in a sunny beach complete with fun nightlife, right now, is not relationship building. Tell her you feel it's important for the relationship that everything you each do for the near future, say a year perhaps, should be to build the relationship stronger. Admit to feeling insecure and then say you are strong enough to admit to feeling like that!

Strong men do feel insecure, admitting it and putting down some boundaries are what makes them strong.

Passive aggressive approach makes them look weak, washy washy and too ball less to come out and say what they really want!


----------



## Caribbean Man

Anon Pink said:


> *Grow a pair of balls and tell her you are not comfortable with her going on this vacation because you feel the relationship is still in a fragile stage. Because the time apart in a sunny beach complete with fun nightlife, right now, is not relationship building. Tell her you feel it's important for the relationship that everything you each do for the near future, say a year perhaps, should be to build the relationship stronger. Admit to feeling insecure and then say you are strong enough to admit to feeling like that!
> *
> Strong men do feel insecure, admitting it and putting down some boundaries are what makes them strong.
> 
> Passive aggressive approach makes them look weak, washy washy and too ball less to come out and say what they really want!


My sentiments exactly.

But he seems either not willing or able to do that.
Passive aggressiveness is a typical " nice guy" [ doormat] trait in men.
He's afraid of loosing her , so he doesn't want to offend her, and she walks all over him, then he gets angry and can't express himself , so he tries to be nice hoping that she'll get the message, and she isn't getting the message .
Wash , rinse repeat.


----------



## weightlifter

Anon Pink said:


> Your relationship is still too fragile for her to vacation without you AND with single friends. Newly divorced friend is even less marriage friendly.
> 
> Grow a pair of balls and tell her you are not comfortable with her going on this vacation because you feel the relationship is still in a fragile stage. Because the time apart in a sunny beach complete with fun nightlife, right now, is not relationship building. Tell her you feel it's important for the relationship that everything you each do for the near future, say a year perhaps, should be to build the relationship stronger. Admit to feeling insecure and then say you are strong enough to admit to feeling like that!
> 
> Strong men do feel insecure, admitting it and putting down some boundaries are what makes them strong.
> 
> Passive aggressive approach makes them look weak, washy washy and too ball less to come out and say what they really want!


GAAAAH! Im mostly agreeing with Anon!

Im so sorry Anon. 

Repeating a post before that.

She is going there to Cheat.

Sheesh 

Just add hiding the phone and going to the VIP room of a male review (FTR IF he did. he has not) and you could call this one the biggest slam dunk cheating of all time.


----------



## Anon Pink

Caribbean Man said:


> My sentiments exactly.
> 
> But he seems either not willing or able to do that.
> Passive aggressiveness is a typical " nice guy" [ doormat] trait in men.
> He's afraid of loosing her , so he doesn't want to offend her, and she walks all over him, then he gets angry and can't express himself , so he tries to be nice hoping that she'll get the message, and she isn't getting the message .
> Wash , rinse repeat.



Tell me about it! 

I live with a man who can't even come out and say, "I'm hungry when's dinner?"


----------



## Anon Pink

weightlifter said:


> GAAAAH! Im mostly agreeing with Anon!
> 
> Im so sorry Anon.
> 
> Repeating a post before that.
> 
> She is going there to Cheat.
> 
> Sheesh
> 
> Just add hiding the phone and going to the VIP room of a male review (FTR IF he did. he has not) and you could call this one the biggest slam dunk cheating of all time.


I don't agree she is going away to cheat. But I do agree she is in a precarious place and I do agree she is sabotaging the relationship by pushing for this. I also agree he needs to put his foot down and be a man with strong boundaries and enough confidence to enforce them.

I liked you post only to indicate I'm not offended at the shock you feel that you agree with me. I get that a lot.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Anon Pink said:


> Tell me about it!
> 
> I live with a man who can't even come out and say, "I'm hungry when's dinner?"


LMAO!

I just remembered that thread...

But I sure he makes up for it in other ways.


----------



## Anon Pink

Caribbean Man said:


> LMAO!
> 
> I just remembered that thread...
> 
> But I sure he makes up for it in other ways.


He does make up for it on occasion. Nothing like topping from the bottom...


----------



## Caribbean Man

Anon Pink said:


> He does make up for it on occasion. Nothing like topping from the bottom...


Don't want to jack the OP's thread,
But I can sense your resentment.
Hope that dynamic changes sooner rather than later.


----------



## JCD

goyaboard1 said:


> Hi All and thanks for the many replies.
> to put things into context; I don't think its a "fault" on my wifes part that she wants to take a sunny break with her pals, it s more a fault on my part for feeling the way I do about it.
> in trying to work out why it bothers me I came up with this;
> we have only been back together 9 months after 6 months apart
> following the ILYBNILWY. line , so feeling a little insecure still.
> Secondly, some of the group are single and one is recent divorced.
> the break is for 5 days in Malaga and the idea is to chill out on the beach during the day, get dressed up in the evening, have a meal and then hit the clubs.
> 
> yes , we do have vacation together but, having said that, i did try to book us one for mid june together but my wife said its too soon after her girlie break..
> 
> 
> so, after reading through this, a lot of the problem is down to my insecurity and i have to deal with that. Of course I want my wife to be happy and have a good time but I do have concerns that she may be putting herself in a situation where things could go wrong.
> I have spoken to my wife about how I feel, she said yes things could go wrong but they won't.
> 
> all the best


No. Your problem is your wife, who not 9 months ago told you she didn't love you and dismissed your proposal to have a vacation with her, is also telling you that she is going to go with single and a rebound divorced woman *CLUBBING!*

Dressed up, drinking and clubbing.

Going to a place where the genders congregate for 'socially acceptable pseudo sexual touching'...without you.

So...I am sure you were a less than perfect partner. Your insecurities in this case are *FAR* from misplaced or unreasonable.

Do not be so desperate to have someone in your life that you put up with things which are not so reasonable.

THIS vacation smells.


----------



## maverick23

What does she do when she is upset at you? Can she self-soothe or does she seek external affirmation? 

These situations tell all about both of your self confidence. I would bet you're upset because you don't get enough affirmation from SO, and the thought of her spending energy and resources elsewhere gets under your skin. That and potentially she has a tendency to reach out to 'old flames' when you guys are fighting, and this vacation hints at that potential tendency.

She could be excited for the vacation because she knows she will get affirmation from others in ways or volumes that she doesn't get with you, which is undeniably exciting for anyone that is lacking for attention. 

Lots of stuff in play here, but you really need to focus on how you affirm one another, and I would say that will lead you to some clarity on this matter.


----------



## sh987

Theseus said:


> Frankly I am rather shocked by the number of people who think that taking a holiday with friends is wrong for them under all circumstances. Scarlett, PaulT, Mrs. Adams, DoF, Indy, Wolf, Juicer, and sh987, do you have any friends at all other than your spouse? I'm not asking that to be insulting, it is a serious question. In other threads, there are a lot of people on TAM who have admitted they have no longer have any friends outside their marriage.


We're each free to have fun with our friends. She's been to the spa, I've gone fishing. Those sorts of things. However, we view vacations as a different beast; a chance to really get away with family and do something special. We couldn't imagine taking the most special time to get away and not share it with each other.

And that's us. When the kids are gone, we'll have fun planning the next trips we'll take together. Frankly, I don't see what's so odd about that. I make no judgements regarding the condition of other couples' marriages based on whether or not they vacation together. That's them, and I don't see what's odd about that either.


----------



## JCD

maverick23 said:


> What does she do when she is upset at you? Can she self-soothe or does she seek external affirmation?
> 
> These situations tell all about both of your self confidence. I would bet you're upset because you don't get enough affirmation from SO, and the thought of her spending energy and resources elsewhere gets under your skin. That and potentially she has a tendency to reach out to 'old flames' when you guys are fighting, and this vacation hints at that potential tendency.
> 
> She could be excited for the vacation because she knows she will get affirmation from others in ways or volumes that she doesn't get with you, which is undeniably exciting for anyone that is lacking for attention.
> 
> Lots of stuff in play here, but you really need to focus on how you affirm one another, and I would say that will lead you to some clarity on this matter.


So she is seeking affirmation PURELY from her friends and whatever random handsome stranger she meets at a vacation spot...and it's his fault for not affirming her?

She isn't seeming to own any of her hand in all of this. She gets her vacation and he gets to suck it up. I am sure 'fragile male ego' is going to be batted around.

I wonder what kind of outfits she is going to pack in her suitcase. Were I you, and you don't have enough sand, power or backbone to forbid this or at least give a strong ultimatum here, before she goes, I would go though all her clothes and hold the most 'lady of the evening' up for her review and just quirk an eyebrow at her.

Make her own what she is, in fact, seeking out.


----------



## Machiavelli

Hey, Goy! Do strange women ever hit on you or come sit in your lap while you're trying to have lunch?


----------



## Anon Pink

Machiavelli said:


> Hey, Goy! Do strange women ever hit on you or come sit in your lap while you're trying to have lunch?


I've seen you ask this before.

Who the hell are these strange women who are supposed to be jumping into the laps of strange men? And what exactly do you mean by "hitting on you." Cause, being a woman myself, who is also close personal friends with many other women, I don't know a single one who would ever do such a things. Except one... But she does it just to be funny.


----------



## Machiavelli

Anon Pink said:


> I've seen you ask this before.
> 
> Who the hell are these strange women who are supposed to be jumping into the laps of strange men? And what exactly do you mean by "hitting on you." Cause, being a woman myself, who is also close personal friends with many other women, I don't know a single one who would ever do such a things. Except one... But she does it just to be funny.


Women in general. Every race you care to name. Ages 14-50. Break room at the office, sitting in my desk at the office, grocery store, breaks between sets at the club, listening to bands while sitting alone, at the gym, at the beach, amusement park.

Hitting on would be rubbing boobs on my back while "looking over my shoulder at something", putting my hand in their crotch or bra, grinding on my quads at the lunch table, pulling up the shirt/dress to show boobs or buttocks, telling me at the office party that they want my **** in their *****, telling me about their favorite porno scene they watched the previous night, etc etc.

You know, the usual stuff that women do.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Machiavelli said:


> Hey, Goy! Do strange women ever hit on you or come sit in your lap while you're trying to have lunch?


Mach,

I've got to ask man. Assuming we're talking strangers here is it normal for a strange women to come up to you during lunch and sit on your lap? I might get some stares and a warm smile at lunch. Or even PG rated cat calls during the day when walking in the city (why is it always from female security guards!!!!). But I've generally only experienced the more forward behavior at happy hour time or later.

I do get why you ask this question in these types of threads though. If you're the type of guy that women flirt with frequently you would probably handle this differently. You certainly wouldn't be as fearful about losing your woman. Also, she'd be more worried about leaving you behind and what you may or may not be up to instead of focusing on all the fun she is going to have.


----------



## Theseus

ScarletBegonias said:


> Please point out in my post where I said it was generally wrong or unacceptable. Please point out where I said ANYTHING negative about it.


 !!

In your previous post when you said: "*I don't go for "friends only" holidays.If I'm spending our money on something and using vacation days it's going toward more time with my husband*."



> _Kindly refer to the part where I said I don't do it and prefer spending time with my husband. _


When you said: _"*It would feel like wasting my time off if I wasn't spending it with DH doing something fun*."_




> _Also,kindly refer to the part where I said it appears many women do it and I just don't understand it._


When you said: _"*It seems a lot of women do these girl's only holiday things but I just can't understand why*."_

Seriously Scarlet, are you for real???????? Either your first post was sarcasm, or you are really two different people!


----------



## Machiavelli

ReformedHubby said:


> Mach,
> 
> I've got to ask man. Assuming we're talking strangers here is it normal for a strange women to come up to you during lunch and sit on your lap? I might get some stares and a warm smile at lunch. Or even PG rated cat calls during the day when walking in the city (why is it always from female security guards!!!!). But I've generally only experienced the more forward behavior at happy hour time or later.


Just to give two examples, the grinding in the break room was my first day at a new job. One of the boob episodes was from a slightly higher ranking female manager in my private office, about 30 minutes after I sat through four hours of sexual harassment training. Taught my her. Prior to that, I doubt we'd said four sentences to each other. I would rate these girls as a 7.5 and 8 respectively.



ReformedHubby said:


> I do get why you ask this question in these types of threads though. If you're the type of guy that women flirt with frequently you would probably handle this differently. * You certainly wouldn't be as fearful about losing your woman.* Also, she'd be more worried about leaving you behind and what you may or may not be up to instead of focusing on all the fun she is going to have.


Exactly. If you're a guy that lots of women are hot for, you're the kind of guy your woman will value. A woman who has lost attraction, assuming she had it, for her husband (ILYBINILWY) is a woman who believes, due to female solipsism, that no other woman can be attracted to her husband. Rarely, a woman can rediscover that attraction when it becomes obvious that other women desire him.

You'll also notice that when I ask this question, the roar of the chirping crickets is almost unbearable.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Machiavelli said:


> You'll also notice that when I ask this question, the roar of the chirping crickets is almost unbearable.


Never occurred to you that it is just a really dumb question and no one understands why you are asking it?


----------



## Noble1

weightlifter said:


> >following the ILYBNILWY. line , so feeling a little insecure still.
> 
> 
> Not quite sure if Ive ever seen such a fast turn on a thread.


Its a wonder what some small bits of info can do to a story and the resulting advice.


----------



## Mostlycontent

Machiavelli said:


> Just to give two examples, the grinding in the break room was my first day at a new job. One of the boob episodes was from a slightly higher ranking female manager in my private office, about 30 minutes after I sat through four hours of sexual harassment training. Taught my her. Prior to that, I doubt we'd said four sentences to each other. I would rate these girls as a 7.5 and 8 respectively.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. If you're a guy that lots of women are hot for, you're the kind of guy your woman will value. A woman who has lost attraction, assuming she had it, for her husband (ILYBINILWY) is a woman who believes, due to female solipsism, that no other woman can be attracted to her husband. Rarely, a woman can rediscover that attraction when it becomes obvious that other women desire him.
> 
> You'll also notice that when I ask this question, the roar of the chirping crickets is almost unbearable.



I completely agree, Mach. ILYBINILWY is merely code for I care about you but I'm not attracted to you anymore. She may as well have said that she's doesn't find you to be a desirable man in any way and then castrated you at the same time.

If you have a zero to very low sex rank, then you are highly susceptible to the ILYBINILWY rhetoric. In fact, I believe it's only just a short matter of time before you hear it. What we don't hear from most OPs is what actually changed from when they met their SO to now.

I'm guessing some hair-thinning or balding and some waistline expansion had a lot to do with it. I can also tell you that the body atrophies at an alarmingly fast rate once you get into your 40s and 50s so if you don't lift weights regularly, you are going to be shaped like a pear and a pear has no sex rank.


----------



## Anon Pink

Machiavelli said:


> Women in general. Every race you care to name. Ages 14-50. Break room at the office, sitting in my desk at the office, grocery store, breaks between sets at the club, listening to bands while sitting alone, at the gym, at the beach, amusement park.
> 
> Hitting on would be rubbing boobs on my back while "looking over my shoulder at something", putting my hand in their crotch or bra, grinding on my quads at the lunch table, pulling up the shirt/dress to show boobs or buttocks, telling me at the office party that they want my **** in their *****, telling me about their favorite porno scene they watched the previous night, etc etc.
> 
> You know, the usual stuff that women do.


Yikes! I guess I better make sure my big boobs don't give men the wrong idea. And there goes my bucket list item of coming out publicaly as an erotic story writer! Damn! 

At a ****tail party with my husband his all the higher ups, standing with other spouses and someone asks me what I do... "I write porn."

I'm not sure the boob thing is a come on. As far as the other stuff... these aren't women you're already dating? This is how women come on to you? Seriously?

Sorry, I'm gonna need pics before I believe it!


----------



## Anon Pink

Faithful Wife said:


> Never occurred to you that it is just a really dumb question and no one understands why you are asking it?


I get why he's asking it and I think he has a valid point. My husband has seriously let himself go during the course of our marriage. Last year I insisted he get in shape. He's gained another 10! I wish someone other than me would knock him upside the head! His doctor is just as fat!


----------



## Machiavelli

Anon Pink said:


> Yikes! I guess I better make sure my big boobs don't give men the wrong idea. And there goes my bucket list item of coming out publicaly as an erotic story writer! Damn!
> 
> At a ****tail party with my husband his all the higher ups, standing with other spouses and someone asks me what I do... "I write porn."
> 
> I'm not sure the boob thing is a come on. As far as the other stuff... these aren't women you're already dating? This is how women come on to you? Seriously?


Yes. My wife (natural D cup) assures me that women know where their boobs end and my body and hands begin. Especially when they lean in behind my chair so my neck has a DD on either side resting on each shoulder (sexual harassment lady).

Do you want to hear any of my Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders stories?



Anon Pink said:


> Sorry, I'm gonna need pics before I believe it!


Then don't believe it, but no way am I putting any pix on this site. Not even for two minutes.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Theseus said:


> !!
> 
> In your previous post when you said: "*I don't go for "friends only" holidays.If I'm spending our money on something and using vacation days it's going toward more time with my husband*."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you said: _"*It would feel like wasting my time off if I wasn't spending it with DH doing something fun*."_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you said: _"*It seems a lot of women do these girl's only holiday things but I just can't understand why*."_
> 
> Seriously Scarlet, are you for real???????? Either your first post was sarcasm, or you are really two different people!


I expressed that I don't understand why some other women prefer to use vacation time on friends. I wasn't negative,I didn't say you shouldn't spend anytime with friends and I spoke only for my own marriage. Wtf is your problem? Are YOU for real with this crap?? Do I need to get out the flash cards and crayons to make my post even easier to understand for you? 

I hadn't realized it wasn't ok to not understand why people use vaca days on friends. Apparently expressing that I don't personally do it Bc it feels like a waste is wrong...so sorry if that doesn't line up with how you feel but seriously,get the f*ck over yourself. I do not look negatively on people who do it I JUST DONT UNDERSTAND WHY THEY DO IT.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

Anon Pink said:


> I get why he's asking it and I think he has a valid point. My husband has seriously let himself go during the course of our marriage. Last year I insisted he get in shape. He's gained another 10! I wish someone other than me would knock him upside the head! His doctor is just as fat!


I get why he's asking too...but he could just say "is your wife attracted to you?" instead of "Don't girls shove their boobs in your face on the regular? No? Why not? Because that totally happens every day to every man who is sexually worthy. It should be your barometer of attractiveness, dude-bro."


----------



## Theseus

ScarletBegonias said:


> I expressed that I don't understand why some other women prefer to use vacation time on friends. I wasn't negative,I didn't say you shouldn't spend anytime with friends and I spoke only for my own marriage.


Now you are moving the goalposts. I never claimed you were speaking for anyone else's marriage. 



> _Wtf is your problem? Are YOU for real with this crap?? Do I need to get out the flash cards and crayons to make my post even easier to understand for you? _


Scarlett, why are you acting so hostile? THREE TIMES you asked me to point out where you said something. So I obliged by quoting *your own words* back to you. Now you are pissed off at me for doing what you asked? 

Maybe you are in a bad mood about something else in life, but don't take it out on me. You are over the top here, and it's really unnecessary.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Theseus said:


> Now you are moving the goalposts. I never claimed you were speaking for anyone else's marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> Scarlett, why are you acting so hostile? THREE TIMES you asked me to point out where you said something. So I obliged by quoting *your own words* back to you. Now you are pissed off at me for doing what you asked?
> 
> Maybe you are in a bad mood about something else in life, but don't take it out on me. You are over the top here, and it's really unnecessary.


You're highlighting things that don't prove your point. I'm very confused about why you listed me in your initial post Bc nothing in my post said negative things about spending time w friends.nothing in my post said DH and I don't have friends we spend time with. Nothing in my post said anything negative at all about the topic. I expressed it felt wrong to use my vaca for friends and suddenly you lump me in some big long post of yours. I said I don't understand why people do it.
ETA, if I'm hostile now it's in direct response to you asking if I'm for real or if I'm two different people. Say something like that followed by a dozen question marks and it tells people you're no longer interested in being peaceful.
HOW does that show I deserved to be put into your original post? THAT is what is p*ssing me off right now. You make no sense Bc you're grasping for points in my posts that aren't there..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

Ah TAM...where we can argue all day about what we said, someone else said, or sometimes what no one said. Whee!!!


----------



## Machiavelli

Mostlycontent said:


> I completely agree, Mach. ILYBINILWY is merely code for I care about you but I'm not attracted to you anymore. She may as well have said that she's doesn't find you to be a desirable man in any way and then castrated you at the same time...I'm guessing some hair-thinning or balding and some waistline expansion had a lot to do with it. I can also tell you that the body atrophies at an alarmingly fast rate once you get into your 40s and 50s so if you don't lift weights regularly, you are going to be shaped like a pear and a pear has no sex rank.





Anon Pink said:


> I get why he's asking it and I think he has a valid point. My husband has seriously let himself go during the course of our marriage. Last year I insisted he get in shape. He's gained another 10! I wish someone other than me would knock him upside the head! His doctor is just as fat!


Y'all are right on the money. I went from getting all kinds of over-the-top female attention all my life to not even getting the eye by age 46 and my own wife "losing her libido." I was no longer playing music, no longer dressing up in suits and uniforms, all my muscle had atrophied, and I was probably no longer putting out those high-test pheromones. Once I got my V torso back and my wife could throw away the 46W "dad" jeans and get me some 33W 501s, her libido magically reappeared. However, I don't get hit on by cheerleaders, anymore, just ex-cheerleader grannies.

The point is, if you want a woman, you have to maintain attraction.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

I'm going to assume you think I meant something that I didn't Bc this is without tone and you don't know me as a person and can't see I wasn't saying anything is bad when people want to spend time with their friends. 
I don't get much leisure time with my spouse and we are in agreement that it feels wrong for US to waste vaca w friends instead of w each other. You can say it's not healthy all day long,I'm fine with your opinion. Doesn't mean I have to agree with you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Faithful Wife said:


> Ah TAM...where we can argue all day about what we said, someone else said, or sometimes what no one said. Whee!!!


LOL 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Machiavelli

intheory said:


> But why should a man have to develop a "6-pack"? It's stupid. Just be in general good health and condition. I understand weight lifting can be of specific use; but surely at reasonable amounts.
> 
> Men can be really rotten to women about their supposed physical lackings. That has always really bothered me. But, it isn't any better or loving to taunt and hurt a man because he, too, is feeling the effects of aging.


Not stupid at all, even if one fails to achieve it. While the visible 6 pack and visible inguinal ligaments are a proven visual sexual turn-on for women, merely getting the body fat in the ballpark, say 12%, will get a man what he wants in the sex department from a wide variety of willing wenches. Besides achieving sub 10% body fat, one needs a certain mix of genes to get that six pack. Nevertheless, it's like a hand grenade, you only need to get close.

A woman's limbic sexual arousal doesn't really concern itself with the niceties of the LTR.


----------



## Anon Pink

Machiavelli said:


> Not stupid at all, even if one fails to achieve it. While the visible 6 pack and visible inguinal ligaments are a proven visual sexual turn-on for women, merely getting the body fat in the ballpark, say 12%, will get a man what he wants in the sex department from a wide variety of willing wenches. Besides achieving sub 10% body fat, one needs a certain mix of genes to get that six pack. Nevertheless, it's like a hand grenade, you only need to get close.
> 
> A woman's limbic sexual arousal doesn't really concern itself with the niceties of the LTR.


I liked your other post, specifically the last line: "The point is, if you want a woman, you have to maintain attraction."

But this post, not so much. LTR aside, I can't imagine most women throwing themselves at a 6 pack with the personality of a cardboard box. I suppose women who get obsessed with movie stars might be the types to react so viscerally to a 6 pack. They're nice to look at but might not actually want to talk to them...

But hey, whatever floats your boat.

You went from a 46 to a 33? That's fabulous! How'd you do it?


----------



## Caribbean Man

I work out.

I love to work out.

I have a six pack and well toned body.

It does give me sex appeal, and confidence.

I like that.


If I wanted to feel healthy, prevent strokes and heart attacks ,prevent diabetes , preventing arthritis and have more energy, then tweaking my diet and walking a few miles everyday could have done that.

But the primary reason I work out is because it puts me directly in charge of how i look in the mirror and to the public , increases my sex appeal and also increases my sex drive exponentially.

People who work out vigorously have higher sex drives. Fat inhibits testosterone

There are 50 and 60 yr old guys in my gym with 6 packs , toned bodies , and their 50 - something yr old wives look like 40 - something.

Nothing bad about still having sex appeal when you cross 40.
Especially , men.


----------



## Theseus

ScarletBegonias said:


> You're highlighting things that don't prove your point.


Even though they matched word for word?
OK, you disagree. I won't bother arguing that with you. But anyone can see your posts (here and here) and see it for themselves. 



> _I'm very confused about why you listed me in your initial post Bc nothing in my post said negative things about spending time w friends._


You said you couldn't imagine taking a vacation without your husband. So I simply asked you and a few other people here if they hang out with friends at all. I was curious. Seriously, what is so wrong with asking that? 



> _ETA, if I'm hostile now it's in direct response to you asking if I'm for real or if I'm two different people. Say something like that followed by a dozen question marks and it tells people you're no longer interested in being peaceful._


Scarlet, your two posts were so extremely contradictory to each other , that I wasn't joking, I seriously was wondering if it was sarcasm on your part. 

Anyway, I'm not the one who resorted to outright insults and throwing F-Bombs. 



> _HOW does that show I deserved to be put into your original post? THAT is what is p*ssing me off right now._


Sounds like you are a pissed off person in general. And incredibly defensive.


----------



## Entropy3000

goyaboard1 said:


> Hi All.
> my wife is due to go on a girls only holiday soon. the closer it gets the more anxious i feel about it. I don't want to be controlling or over possesive but i am realy not that comfortable with the whole concept of a girls only holiday in the sun. Why is there a need to do this, I just don't get it.
> She also did this last year when we were going through a tough time. My mind played all sorts of tricks on me then and most likely will this time.
> 
> my wife has asked if I am ok with this. I say i am not thrilled about it but if it makes you happy then go for it .
> 
> 
> what do you guys think about the whole girls only holiday thing?


I have not read further. The issue here is you.

If you cannot be honest with your wife then you have a problem. Telling her you are not thrilled is not the truth. Telling her go ahead is not how you feel.

So come to grips with how you feel about and then have a real conversation about it. 

From just this post I have no opinion on how you should feel about it. It depends on so many factors.


----------



## Machiavelli

Anon Pink said:


> You went from a 46 to a 33? That's fabulous! How'd you do it?


Low carb ketogenic diet, basically Atkins induction phase, combined with Arthur Jones' Nautilus training principles.


----------



## Entropy3000

Machiavelli said:


> Context is everything.
> 
> I agree that if OP's wife goes on a vacation with her girlfriends, then OP needs to also go on a vacation with his girlfriends as well for the same period.


Agreed. I like the synergy.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

goyaboard1 said:


> Hi All and thanks for the many replies.
> to put things into context; I don't think its a "fault" on my wifes part that she wants to take a sunny break with her pals, it s more a fault on my part for feeling the way I do about it.
> in trying to work out why it bothers me I came up with this;
> we have only been back together 9 months after 6 months apart
> following the ILYBNILWY. line , so feeling a little insecure still.
> Secondly, some of the group are single and one is recent divorced.
> the break is for 5 days in Malaga and the idea is to chill out on the beach during the day, get dressed up in the evening, have a meal and then hit the clubs.
> 
> yes , we do have vacation together but, having said that, i did try to book us one for mid june together but my wife said its too soon after her girlie break..
> 
> 
> so, after reading through this, a lot of the problem is down to my insecurity and i have to deal with that. Of course I want my wife to be happy and have a good time but I do have concerns that she may be putting herself in a situation where things could go wrong.
> I have spoken to my wife about how I feel, she said yes things could go wrong but they won't.
> 
> all the best


Goya:

So the issue is a bit more serious than a girls only vacation. While she's gone I think you should consider seriously whether she's worth any more investment of emotion. Plus you should go out yourself, and generally start putting yourself in situations where you can meet new women. I have a sneaking suspicion that most ILYBINILWY wives are readily replaceable.


----------



## Entropy3000

goyaboard1 said:


> Hi All and thanks for the many replies.
> to put things into context; I don't think its a "fault" on my wifes part that she wants to take a sunny break with her pals, it s more a fault on my part for feeling the way I do about it.
> in trying to work out why it bothers me I came up with this;
> we have only been back together 9 months after 6 months apart
> following the ILYBNILWY. line , so feeling a little insecure still.
> Secondly, some of the group are single and one is recent divorced.
> the break is for 5 days in Malaga and the idea is to chill out on the beach during the day, get dressed up in the evening, have a meal and then hit the clubs.
> 
> yes , we do have vacation together but, having said that, i did try to book us one for mid june together but my wife said its too soon after her girlie break..
> 
> 
> so, after reading through this, a lot of the problem is down to my insecurity and i have to deal with that. Of course I want my wife to be happy and have a good time but I do have concerns that she may be putting herself in a situation where things could go wrong.
> I have spoken to my wife about how I feel, she said yes things could go wrong but they won't.
> 
> all the best


Ah Malaga. They should shoot over to Torremolinos. I love Spain! If I wanted to have fun where I might enjoy some female companionship this is as good a place as any. The clubs would be prime.

The ILYBNILWY is pertinent information. The fact you just got back together is pertinent. I bet there is more to know.

I would tell her that if it is too soon from her girlie break that then she just skips that and goes with you.

I have a new policy thes epast five years. Our time comes first.


----------



## Entropy3000

Anon Pink said:


> Your relationship is still too fragile for her to vacation without you AND with single friends. Newly divorced friend is even less marriage friendly.
> 
> Grow a pair of balls and tell her you are not comfortable with her going on this vacation because you feel the relationship is still in a fragile stage. Because the time apart in a sunny beach complete with fun nightlife, right now, is not relationship building. Tell her you feel it's important for the relationship that everything you each do for the near future, say a year perhaps, should be to build the relationship stronger. Admit to feeling insecure and then say you are strong enough to admit to feeling like that!
> 
> Strong men do feel insecure, admitting it and putting down some boundaries are what makes them strong.
> 
> Passive aggressive approach makes them look weak, washy washy and too ball less to come out and say what they really want!


Anon!!! This^


----------



## Entropy3000

Anon Pink said:


> Tell me about it!
> 
> I live with a man who can't even come out and say, "I'm hungry when's dinner?"


Get in the kitcheh woman. I want some pie!!!


----------



## Entropy3000

Anon Pink said:


> I've seen you ask this before.
> 
> Who the hell are these strange women who are supposed to be jumping into the laps of strange men? And what exactly do you mean by "hitting on you." Cause, being a woman myself, who is also close personal friends with many other women, I don't know a single one who would ever do such a things. Except one... But she does it just to be funny.


It has happened to me. Late last year.


----------



## Mostlycontent

Caribbean Man said:


> I work out.
> 
> I love to work out.
> 
> I have a six pack and well toned body.
> 
> It does give me sex appeal, and confidence.
> 
> I like that.
> 
> 
> If I wanted to feel healthy, prevent strokes and heart attacks ,prevent diabetes , preventing arthritis and have more energy, then tweaking my diet and walking a few miles everyday could have done that.
> 
> But the primary reason I work out is because it puts me directly in charge of how i look in the mirror and to the public , increases my sex appeal and also increases my sex drive exponentially.
> 
> People who work out vigorously have higher sex drives. Fat inhibits testosterone
> 
> There are 50 and 60 yr old guys in my gym with 6 packs , toned bodies , and their 50 - something yr old wives look like 40 - something.
> 
> Nothing bad about still having sex appeal when you cross 40.
> Especially , men.



I totally agree with you, CM. I do the same thing you do and I'm one of those 50 something year old guys (52 in my case) that looks 10 years younger.

I do it because it keeps me physically healthy, keeps me looking the way I want to look and also is a great boost to my self confidence. My W has always preferred muscular men so I make sure I stay looking that way. I think the self confidence aspect also keeps one from likely ever hearing the ILYBINILWY line.

Sure there may be other reasons for a woman to no longer love her man but lack of sex appeal isn't going to be one of those......for me anyway.


----------



## Entropy3000

Faithful Wife said:


> Never occurred to you that it is just a really dumb question and no one understands why you are asking it?


The only problem perhaps with his question is that the people that get it. Don't need it.

He has explained this many times. I am not jumping on you about you take on his post. I just understand what he is trying to say.


----------



## Entropy3000

Faithful Wife said:


> I get why he's asking too...but he could just say "*is your wife attracted to you?*" instead of "Don't girls shove their boobs in your face on the regular? No? Why not? Because that totally happens every day to every man who is sexually worthy. It should be your barometer of attractiveness, dude-bro."


He is wanting to know if other women are attracted to him to the point of action. Many men can answer the second question much easier that the first.

We already know she said ILYBIANILWY. He is trying to determine his general attractiveness.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Entropy3000 said:


> The only problem perhaps with his question is that the people that get it. Don't need it.
> 
> He has explained this many times. I am not jumping on you about you take on his post. * I just understand what he is trying to say.*


Those who need to, understand exactly what he's saying.


----------



## Mostlycontent

Machiavelli said:


> Low carb ketogenic diet, basically Atkins induction phase, combined with Arthur Jones' Nautilus training principles.



That diet really works too. My daughter used that to lose all of her baby weight after my grandson was born and did so at virtual light speed. I'm a huge fan of low carb, high fat and moderate protein.

For a lot of people, specifically those who have become insulin resistant, it's the only way to lose weight and keep it off. Carbs are truly the devil for most and is the reason we have the most obese society in our history. 

The "so called" experts keep pushing this low fat nonsense, which only means that they are consuming more carbs in order to feel any kind of fullness after they eat. You can guess what happens next to their waistline. We need the fat. What we don't need is all the carbs in our diets. But you already know all of this. It's the rest of the masses that don't.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I understand why Mach asks those questions, Ent. And I have read so many of his posts and know his stance on these things. I have also read the "science" behind it (cough cough). I was just poking the lion a bit as I do from time to time with Mach. Can't help myself, he described himself as having bunches of hot ladies around him and per pre-selection, I am now attracted to him.

(yes...that is sarcasm...but I have no doubt that Mach is attractive and I believe all of those stories he has told about himself...if a man has that kind of appeal, he just does!)


----------



## Entropy3000

Faithful Wife said:


> I understand why Mach asks those questions, Ent. And I have read so many of his posts and know his stance on these things. I have also read the "science" behind it (cough cough). I was just poking the lion a bit as I do from time to time with Mach. Can't help myself, he described himself as having bunches of hot ladies around him and per pre-selection, I am now attracted to him.
> 
> (yes...that is sarcasm...but I have no doubt that Mach is attractive and I believe all of those stories he has told about himself...if a man has that kind of appeal, he just does!)


Ok I get where you are coming from. 

Well whatever science calls it ... I know when I see it.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I know it too, Ent. I married one.


----------



## Anon Pink

Entropy3000 said:


> It has happened to me. Late last year.


Well I guess I need to get out of the kitchen more often because this kind of strong come on is a foreign concept to me. But that's just me.


----------



## Entropy3000

Anon Pink said:


> Well I guess I need to get out of the kitchen more often because this kind of strong come on is a foreign concept to me. But that's just me.


Women are just running wild!!!


----------



## Anon Pink

I kinda wish I had the guts to do that.


----------



## JCD

Machiavelli said:


> Women in general. Every race you care to name. Ages 14-50. Break room at the office, sitting in my desk at the office, grocery store, breaks between sets at the club, listening to bands while sitting alone, at the gym, at the beach, amusement park.
> 
> Hitting on would be rubbing boobs on my back while "looking over my shoulder at something", putting my hand in their crotch or bra, grinding on my quads at the lunch table, pulling up the shirt/dress to show boobs or buttocks, telling me at the office party that they want my **** in their *****, telling me about their favorite porno scene they watched the previous night, etc etc.
> 
> You know, the usual stuff that women do.


Um...the USUAL stuff that women do, that I have observed with myself and other people is that they put themselves into 'view'. They seek you out in conversation. They touch your arm. They mention places that they REALLY WANT TO GO TO...and maybe mention their days off in the same breath. They might lean over a little more and gaze with 'fascination' at the things you say.

Most women SEEM to prefer to be asked, not ask themselves.

Most women SEEM to prefer plausible deniability and subtlety.

Most women SEEM to have self respect.

Now, IF what you say is true, where women are essentially acting like Thai Bar girls with you all the time...well...I hate you even more. Good for you and I hope you get hit with a bus!

The rest of us do not live in that world.

Edited to Add:

This HAS happened to me...but it was a teenaged girl from a broken home who had been sexually assaulted if rumor was true. So I wouldn't exactly call her 'par for the course'. I've had women during Spring Break run their hands across my chest but the venue was one of 'sexual availability' and alcohol was involved.

So TO AN EXTENT, it's possible. But generally, no, I don't think women act this way for the most part.


----------



## JCD

Since we are thread jacking to work out stories...

I was about 205. I am STILL about 205. My weight fluctuates around 2 pounds up and down.

My body fat dropped about 3%. It's still high (18% on a good day)...but the VAST change in female attention is huge.

No six packs. Not much of a V. But no sunken chest. Arms with a bit of meat on them. Just the change in bearing.

OP, get thee to a gym. Now. Do not invest any more emotion or work on this woman. Don't get sulky or sad. 

Treat every day as if you are getting ready for the NEXT woman in your life...and suddenly the woman in your life NOW will get the memo: that there is something she might actually lose...and you might actually earn your place in her heart as well.

Taking each other for granted is corrosive.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Anon Pink said:


> Well I guess I need to get out of the kitchen more often because this kind of strong come on is a foreign concept to me. But that's just me.


LOL, I'm finding myself jealous of Mach and I don't even know him. Which is crazy because I've had a very good life in that dept. I've never had strangers with no liquid courage be that dang forward at noon. Its a lot subtler. Oh well...I guess I just should be thankful for the life I've had. 

Yep, I think its time for me to start another game thread (sorry ladies). I'm interested in hearing more war stories from other TAM members. I find it fascinating.


----------



## goyaboard1

OMG. I feel like I have set my wife up for a public flogging and that feels soooo bad.

It is Alcudia she is going to, thats not as full on as some places I guess.
we are going on vacation together in july because she felt that june was too soon after her break, i get that and thats fine.

the ILYBNILWY we have been working through over the last nine months and is going ok. A combination of empty nest syndrome, mid life crisis and life in general seem to have been the issues there. I am still sore from that whole episode and that is where my anxiety comes from, but we are working through it.

it is just the whole need to go away with the girls thing that i struggle with, why is there a need for that.

There seem to some reference as to wether I am attractive or not. Its always tricky to describe yourself but here goes; after a lifetime of sport and workouts here are some comments;
rugged and handsome, great body, lovely smile, hunk, great butt,funny, approachable. not my words so I aint bragging.
there is a certain air of confidence that can only come with age and experience

so , all this talk about a girlie holiday and what my wife may or may not do , lets end with a bit of humour. My wife is 58 and i am 59 so the whole clubbing thing is quite funny realy. she is smokin' hot though and i make a point of telling her that, or words to that effect , on a daily basis.

all the best and thanks


----------



## JCD

goyaboard1 said:


> OMG. I feel like I have set my wife up for a public flogging and that feels soooo bad.
> 
> It is Alcudia she is going to, thats not as full on as some places I guess.
> we are going on vacation together in july because she felt that june was too soon after her break, i get that and thats fine.
> 
> the ILYBNILWY we have been working through over the last nine months and is going ok. A combination of empty nest syndrome, mid life crisis and life in general seem to have been the issues there. I am still sore from that whole episode and that is where my anxiety comes from, but we are working through it.
> 
> it is just the whole need to go away with the girls thing that i struggle with, why is there a need for that.
> 
> There seem to some reference as to wether I am attractive or not. Its always tricky to describe yourself but here goes; after a lifetime of sport and workouts here are some comments;
> rugged and handsome, great body, lovely smile, hunk, great butt,funny, approachable. not my words so I aint bragging.
> there is a certain air of confidence that can only come with age and experience
> 
> so , all this talk about a girlie holiday and what my wife may or may not do , lets end with a bit of humour. My wife is 58 and i am 59 so the whole clubbing thing is quite funny realy. she is smokin' hot though and i make a point of telling her that, or words to that effect , on a daily basis.
> 
> all the best and thanks


I guess you told us. Nothing to see here. Move along people.


----------



## Chaparral

It would be wise to read his older threads. I personally think he's overly optimistic.


----------



## Omego

Machiavelli said:


> putting my hand in their crotch or bra, grinding on my quads at the lunch table, pulling up the shirt/dress to show boobs or buttocks, telling me at the office party that they want my **** in their *****, telling me about their favorite porno scene they watched the previous night, etc etc.
> 
> You know, the usual stuff that women do.


:rofl::rofl:

I don't think any of the above are "usual"! :rofl::rofl:

WHO would behave like this? Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting the stories, but it's so over the top.


----------



## Omego

Mostlycontent said:


> My W has always preferred muscular men so I make sure I stay looking that way. I think the self confidence aspect also keeps one from likely ever hearing the ILYBINILWY line.


:iagree: This is completely accurate. In my opinion sex appeal is at the top of the list of things necessary to maintain a relationship.

I also feel that men who have "it" if you will, this sex-appeal, are probably not going to find themselves in the some of the situations we read about on here.

Call it V-shape, if you want, but it basically boils down to self-confidence and the vibe that the man gives off. And there's no way around the fact that fit men are attractive. Strength is attractive.


----------



## weightlifter

Dude she is still going clubbing with singles into a singles place.

She is going to by default act as a wing woman and WILL end up at some guys room or condo... alcohol involved...

That light is not the end of the tunnel. It IS an oncoming train!

Was your separation open or closed? (dating or no?)


----------



## Chaparral

intheory said:


> Wow, you make attraction sound like an equation.
> 
> I confess that I always respond to height in men. But the most powerful attraction is the face. Beautiful eyebrows and lashes. A nice nose that's not very big. "Pretty boys" definitely.
> 
> But I acknowledge many people are into lots of muscle; even though it's never done much for me.


The point is that it isn't your concious mind that in control.of what you are attracted to. No more than apersons brain tells their, um, equipment its time for sex.

Women are attracted be odors etc.they can't even smell. They are also repulsed by men that don't have compatible immune systems. You think you are in charge but you are actually along for the ride


----------



## JCD

weightlifter said:


> Dude she is still going clubbing with singles into a singles place.
> 
> She is going to by default act as a wing woman and WILL end up at some guys room or condo... alcohol involved...
> 
> That light is not the end of the tunnel. It IS an oncoming train!
> 
> Was your separation open or closed? (dating or no?)


Um...no. That is a trifle pessimistic and insulting.

In my recent experiences, I've had all kinds of 'willing' thrown at me and gone to places which are 'not marriage friendly' if you take 'not' as FRIGGING AWFUL.

And yet, I did not fall or stray. 

I agree that this is still a very large concern, but to say she has NO self control is a trifle over the top.

But in the context of their relationship, I would be worried.


----------



## thummper

How many threads have I seen on this and other sites where the marriage began to go downhill during one of these "vacations?" Too much temptation within easy reach. A little too much drinking. Dancing with other men. Kissing. Grinding on the dance floor. A little groping at the table while consuming more alcohol. Accompanying the new man to his room. The kissing continues. Clothes begin hitting the floor just before they hit the bed. Next day comes the guilt and shame. Straying becomes so easy to do, but later comes the regret and the recriminations. No one goes there with the intention of cheating, but it happens time and time again. Doesn't really seem to be worth it, but that's just my take on it.


----------



## JCD

Chaparral said:


> It would be wise to read his older threads. I personally think he's overly optimistic.


I need a sarcasm emotie.

Plus we need a 'denial' emotie while we are at it.


----------



## lovelygirl

Machiavelli said:


> Women in general. Every race you care to name. Ages 14-50. Break room at the office, sitting in my desk at the office, grocery store, breaks between sets at the club, listening to bands while sitting alone, at the gym, at the beach, amusement park.
> 
> Hitting on would be rubbing boobs on my back while "looking over my shoulder at something", putting my hand in their crotch or bra, grinding on my quads at the lunch table, pulling up the shirt/dress to show boobs or buttocks, telling me at the office party that they want my **** in their *****, telling me about their favorite porno scene they watched the previous night, etc etc.
> 
> You know, the usual stuff that women do.


I've seen you mention this all the time
As much as you want to show off about the fact that you're being hit on, if you're a married man..., then why are you letting strange women do these things to you??

It's disrespectful to your marriage and wife!


----------



## EasyPartner

lovelygirl said:


> I've seen you mention this all the time
> As much as you want to show off about the fact that you're being hit on, if you're a married man..., then why are you letting strange women do these things to you??
> 
> It's disrespectful to your marriage and wife!


Lovelygirl,

I really like your signature, especially in this kind of context... it says it all :smthumbup:


----------



## Entropy3000

goyaboard1 said:


> OMG. I feel like I have set my wife up for a public flogging and that feels soooo bad.
> 
> It is Alcudia she is going to, thats not as full on as some places I guess.
> we are going on vacation together in july because she felt that june was too soon after her break, i get that and thats fine.
> 
> the ILYBNILWY we have been working through over the last nine months and is going ok. A combination of empty nest syndrome, mid life crisis and life in general seem to have been the issues there. I am still sore from that whole episode and that is where my anxiety comes from, but we are working through it.
> 
> it is just the whole need to go away with the girls thing that i struggle with, why is there a need for that.
> 
> There seem to some reference as to wether I am attractive or not. Its always tricky to describe yourself but here goes; after a lifetime of sport and workouts here are some comments;
> rugged and handsome, great body, lovely smile, hunk, great butt,funny, approachable. not my words so I aint bragging.
> there is a certain air of confidence that can only come with age and experience
> 
> so , all this talk about a girlie holiday and what my wife may or may not do , lets end with a bit of humour. My wife is 58 and i am 59 so the whole clubbing thing is quite funny realy. she is smokin' hot though and i make a point of telling her that, or words to that effect , on a daily basis.
> 
> all the best and thanks


This thread is going along like the typical trickle truth we get sometimes with a bait and switch. Not saying you are jerking us around or anything.

If your wife is smokin hot then you should have the same concerns especially with the company she is keeping. Check, 58 and 59 both smokin hot people.

I see you talk of confidence but you do not show it in this situation. In all seriousness if you have not had your T levels checked ... do so.


----------



## Marduk

lovelygirl said:


> I've seen you mention this all the time
> As much as you want to show off about the fact that you're being hit on, if you're a married man..., then why are you letting strange women do these things to you??
> 
> It's disrespectful to your marriage and wife!


I can vouch for some of this stuff.

3-4 (or 5? I'm losing track) years ago I would have thought this was all complete BS.

Then I wised up, lost my gut, got some muscles, got some threads, learned how to act confidently and decisively... 

And wham! Babes on me like you would not believe. Married or not.

Had one married one flat out proposition me. In my office. No strings, anything I wanted. Out of the blue. Door open. And she was hot.

Huge ring on her finger.

If you're a successful, fit guy in your early 40's the women seem to just flock to you.

And women in their 30s and 40s know what they want and they are going to put their desires out there. In detail.

Even when I have not initiated any kind of flirting.


----------



## ReformedHubby

lovelygirl said:


> I've seen you mention this all the time
> As much as you want to show off about the fact that you're being hit on, if you're a married man..., then why are you letting strange women do these things to you??
> 
> It's disrespectful to your marriage and wife!


I'm not Mach, but its not really about "letting" them do it. They just do. I haven't experienced all of the ridiculousness that Mach has, but when I share with my wife what does happen it actually excites her. She would really only have a problem with it if I was keeping things a secret. That could lead to trouble.


----------



## weightlifter

JCD said:


> Um...no. That is a trifle pessimistic and insulting.
> 
> In my recent experiences, I've had all kinds of 'willing' thrown at me and gone to places which are 'not marriage friendly' if you take 'not' as FRIGGING AWFUL.
> 
> And yet, I did not fall or stray.
> 
> I agree that this is still a very large concern, but to say she has NO self control is a trifle over the top.
> 
> But in the context of their relationship, I would be worried.


shrug. I work with a former bartender at a club. The sheer number of times single friend gets married friend to act as a wing woman and go home with Men A and B where both men are single and known players...

You can be assured a good number of times this ended very badly for clueless husband.

Add in the pack mentality.

Sure thing she will cheat? No. But its Russian Roulette with 4 bullets not 1.


----------



## Cubby

I'll add to the threadjack. I've been 36" waist, and now I'm 32" waist. There's a huge difference in how women interact with the 32W-me. My experience out in the field matches up to the science Mach describes.


----------



## Machiavelli

JCD said:


> Now, IF what you say is true, where women are essentially acting like Thai Bar girls with you all the time...well...I hate you even more. Good for you and I hope you get hit with a bus!
> 
> *The rest of us do not live in that world.*.


Yes, I understand this now. I used to think all guys got this treatment, in a sex-rank appropriate way, but I now know I was extremely "blessed" in some way.


----------



## Machiavelli

JCD said:


> .
> 
> *Treat every day as if you are getting ready for the NEXT woman in your life...and suddenly the woman in your life NOW will get the memo*: that there is something she might actually lose...and you might actually earn your place in her heart as well.
> 
> Taking each other for granted is corrosive.


As the Limeys say: Brilliant. 

Post that as a top sticky in the Men's Clubhouse and they can close that forum down. Pretty much the bottom line essence of how a man can have a successful marriage.


----------



## Machiavelli

Omego said:


> :rofl::rofl:
> 
> I don't think any of the above are "usual"! :rofl::rofl:
> 
> WHO would behave like this? Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting the stories, but it's so over the top.


About 40% of my wild woman stories involved female federal investigators, so maybe they have higher testosterone. But, all the rest were at normal jobs or outside of work. Female cadets, music fans, women at the grocery store or 7/11. Ordinary women for the most part, but I was a lead guitar player in a rock band, a photographer of women, and a personal trainer (all simultaneously) after my day gig. I came into contact with a lot of horny women, was young, had long hair from time to time, and a greek god physique. When I was about 24, models and strippers would look at me with an open OMG expression of lust. I'm remembering stuff I forgot. And no, this stuff doesn't happen much anymore.


----------



## Machiavelli

intheory said:


> Wow, you make attraction sound like an equation.


Golden Ratio on the left, almost on the right. Which do you prefer?


----------



## Anon Pink

weightlifter said:


> Dude she is still going clubbing with singles into a singles place.
> 
> She is going to by default act as a wing woman and WILL end up at some guys room or condo... alcohol involved...
> 
> That light is not the end of the tunnel. It IS an oncoming train!
> 
> Was your separation open or closed? (dating or no?)


I go clubbing on my girls weekends, even dance with other men! Have yet to end up in some guys condo, car, lap or any other place inappropriate. I've even been silly drunk and it hasn't happened.

Why do men always think a drunk woman, or a woman out dancing is going to end up in bed with some man?


----------



## Anon Pink

Machiavelli said:


> Golden Ratio on the left, almost on the right. Which do you prefer?


LEFT!!!!! Right is too skinny. Left looks strong, strong is good.


----------



## JCD

Anon Pink said:


> I go clubbing on my girls weekends, even dance with other men! Have yet to end up in some guys condo, car, lap or any other place inappropriate. I've even been silly drunk and it hasn't happened.
> 
> Why do men always think a drunk woman, or a woman out dancing is going to end up in bed with some man?


Statistically, you are probably correct.

The 'upside' for a man is his wife gets sloppy drunk, horny and he MIGHT get sex with a sloppy drunk woman. ("Gee honey...I'm glad that having a good time without me made you SO happy that you give me a piece...") whee!

The downside of her behaving like this, while statistically small, is *Pretty Frigging Awful* IF (note I said IF) she slips. And exactly how many stories have we read here where some tearful, devastated woman has come here saying "Well...I was at a party/at a bar/having a GNO and THIS happened....what do I do (sob sob)?

So men aren't getting this from nowhere. I think the guys need to have a bit more respect, but don't trivialize the concerns.


----------



## Machiavelli

lovelygirl said:


> I've seen you mention this all the time
> As much as you want to show off about the fact that you're being hit on, if you're a married man..., then why are you letting strange women do these things to you??
> 
> It's disrespectful to your marriage and wife!


I wasn't married in my twenties, for the most part, although a lot of this continued up into my late thirties. These days, at my advanced age, my sex rank is just not high enough for a woman to risk the really outrageous stuff. Once a guy turns down an overt play for sex from a girl, she will almost never try again, because it's a huge insult to be rejected after a blatant invitation.

My wife used to get mad when I would tell her about these things. She wanted me to file a sexual harassment complaint at work. But, it was good for our marriage that she knew other women were after me. She didn't get complacent until I got fat.


----------



## Anon Pink

JCD said:


> Statistically, you are probably correct.
> 
> The 'upside' for a man is his wife gets sloppy drunk, horny and he MIGHT get sex with a sloppy drunk woman. ("Gee honey...I'm glad that having a good time without me made you SO happy that you give me a piece...") whee!
> 
> The downside of her behaving like this, while statistically small, is *Pretty Frigging Awful* IF (note I said IF) she slips. And exactly how many stories have we read here where some tearful, devastated woman has come here saying "Well...I was at a party/at a bar/having a GNO and THIS happened....what do I do (sob sob)?
> 
> So men aren't getting this from nowhere. I think the guys need to have a bit more respect, but don't trivialize the concerns.


Fair enough.

Now if left guy above showed up and zeroed in on me, unless he was a complete ass, that might be trouble. But frankly, I really don't see too many super attractive men in the clubs. Some are attractive and lots are nice to dance with, but for the most part the guys who zero in on a woman have an air of desperation which is a bit of a turn off.


----------



## Machiavelli

Anon Pink said:


> Why do men always think a drunk woman, or a woman out dancing is going to end up in bed with some man?


Probably because so many of them tried to get us into bed, back in the day.


----------



## weightlifter

Anon Pink said:


> I go clubbing on my girls weekends, even dance with other men! Have yet to end up in some guys condo, car, lap or any other place inappropriate. I've even been silly drunk and it hasn't happened.
> 
> Why do men always think a drunk woman, or a woman out dancing is going to end up in bed with some man?


THANK GOODNESS! We disagree. Life is normal again! I was truly scared yesterday. LOL.

Again think Russian Roulette with 4 bullets not 1. Glad you are chambers 5 and 6 for your hubby.

Dancing / flirting / being chatted up with with other strange males is also a no go. (As is females for me. Yes its two way.)

Let me ask a silly question set. Yea I think I pre-know your answers but hey I can take it.

Age? "late twenties" is specific enough. <--- yes im a pig asking. oink.
number range of women in your girls weekends?
Approx number of weekends.
Type of dancing at club. Pop, Hip hop, swing... 
Number of times one of your clique was say inappropriate. Grinding for example
Number of times one of your clique was say PA light. Kissing or being groped for example
Number of times one of your clique was full on PA with at least say oral.


----------



## DoF

Anon Pink said:


> I go clubbing on my girls weekends, even dance with other men! Have yet to end up in some guys condo, car, lap or any other place inappropriate. I've even been silly drunk and it hasn't happened.


if you got silly drunk, you probably wouldn't remember if it happened. Would you? 



Anon Pink said:


> Why do men always think a drunk woman, or a woman out dancing is going to end up in bed with some man?


Because we witness many women doing so over the years. Even the strongest/best of them too. 

You are playing with fire IMO....but whatever floats your boat.


----------



## JCD

Machiavelli said:


> Golden Ratio on the left, almost on the right. Which do you prefer?


This seems to be a 'pizza/steak' question.

Any woman who had either of these men would be blessed.

Carping about 'too skinny' vs. not is as shallow as carping about a man preferring a D cup to a C cup.

Which is perfectly fine, but let's acknowledge that fact, shall we?


----------



## Machiavelli

goyaboard1 said:


> There seem to some reference as to wether I am attractive or not. Its always tricky to describe yourself but here goes; after a lifetime of sport and workouts here are some comments;
> rugged and handsome, great body, lovely smile, hunk, great butt,funny, approachable. not my words so I aint bragging.
> there is a certain air of confidence that can only come with age and experience


ILYBINILWY means you need to get in even better shape, as a general rule.



goyaboard1 said:


> so , all this talk about a girlie holiday and what my wife may or may not do , lets end with a bit of humour. *My wife is 58* and i am 59 so *the whole clubbing thing* is quite funny realy. *she is smokin' hot*


I tell my female clients that I'm not doing my job if they aren't getting hit on by guys half their age. I do my job.


----------



## bandit.45

In the end, wives, especially a group of wives en force, are going to do whatever the fvck they want to do and their husbands have no say in the matter. 

All a husband can do is deal with the fallout if a wife does lose control and does something stupid. At that point a husband can either stand up for his boundaries or not. 

Its a no win situation for men these days.


----------



## JCD

DoF said:


> if you got silly drunk, you probably wouldn't remember if it happened. Would you?
> 
> 
> 
> Because we witness many women doing so over the years. Even the strongest/best of them too.
> 
> You are playing with fire IMO....but whatever floats your boat.


Hmm. Twelve to fifteen units of alcohol. Almost throwing up in the bathroom. Barely walking straight.

I recall the names of the people I was in at the bar. I recall the offers and invitations. I recall saying no.

So I don't really buy the alcohol excuse so much unless it's passed out...and that is rape.


----------



## JCD

bandit.45 said:


> In the end, wives, especially a group of wives en force, are going to do whatever the fvck they want to do and their husbands have no say in the matter.
> 
> All a husband can do is deal with the fallout if a wife does lose control and does something stupid. At that point a husband can either stand up for his boundaries or not.
> 
> Its a no win situation for men these days.


Just because I am 'that guy' and have to challenge stupi...mmm...ill considered statements (it's uncontrollable, really)

How exactly is it a 'win' situation for a woman with children if her husband cheats on her? Even if she gets the 'big' half of a piece of pie, it's still less pie than she had. Or she gets to suck it up just as much as a man does.

Only difference is her dating and work prospects are much more seriously curtailed than his are generally speaking.


----------



## DoF

JCD said:


> Hmm. Twelve to fifteen units of alcohol. Almost throwing up in the bathroom. Barely walking straight.
> 
> I recall the names of the people I was in at the bar. I recall the offers and invitations. I recall saying no.
> 
> So I don't really buy the alcohol excuse so much unless it's passed out...and that is rape.


And rape is a real possibility at a place where people go to find sex, get drunk, do drug and careless people.

Probably one of the least appealing places to be and probably the least appropriate for a person in LTR.

Just me though....


----------



## tulsy

goyaboard1 said:


> ...t i am realy not that comfortable with ...
> my wife has asked if I am ok with this. I say i am not thrilled about it but if it makes you happy then go for it .


Then why lie to her about it?

You are going to get half the people saying that they have no problem with separate vacations, and the other half of people saying they are dead-set against it. None of that matters.

The only thing that matters is how YOU feel about it. If you aren't comfortable with the trip, you should tell your wife. How hard is that?

If you don't like it and it keeps happening annually, what are you going to do? 

FWIW, I'm not interested in being with someone who wants to vacation without me. That's just not the kind of person I want to be with, and I would say so, and follow through on changing my situation. It works for some people, but not for me. 

If it doesn't work for you, you gotta stop pretending it does. Tell you wife and gauge her reaction.


----------



## JCD

I am frequently traveling overseas.

I have the time and money to do quite a bit of sight seeing...but it would be ME alone.

Having that much fun without at least my wife seems...I don't know. Like I'm cheating them out of something. Which is foolish, but it's how I feel.

That means I've missed many opportunities. I may have to rethink that, but I can't ding a person who feels that way.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Anon Pink said:


> I go clubbing on my girls weekends, even dance with other men! Have yet to end up in some guys condo, car, lap or any other place inappropriate. I've even been silly drunk and it hasn't happened.
> 
> Why do men always think a drunk woman, or a woman out dancing is going to end up in bed with some man?


I don't know that we all do. 

But if my wife and I had just gotten through a 6 month separation after she had given me the ILYBANILWY speech, I am not sure I would have that same confidence.

But the OP thinks it is all in his head, so I am not sure there is much else to do. I hope for his sake he is correct.


----------



## Anon Pink

weightlifter said:


> THANK GOODNESS! We disagree. Life is normal again! I was truly scared yesterday. LOL.
> 
> Again think Russian Roulette with 4 bullets not 1. Glad you are chambers 5 and 6 for your hubby.
> 
> Dancing / flirting / being chatted up with with other strange males is also a no go. (As is females for me. Yes its two way.)
> 
> Let me ask a silly question set. Yea I think I pre-know your answers but hey I can take it.
> 
> Age? "late twenties" is specific enough. <--- yes im a pig asking. oink.
> number range of women in your girls weekends?
> Approx number of weekends.
> Type of dancing at club. Pop, Hip hop, swing...
> Number of times one of your clique was say inappropriate. Grinding for example
> Number of times one of your clique was say PA light. Kissing or being groped for example
> Number of times one of your clique was full on PA with at least say oral.


:rofl: all is right with the world again!

I did this dance in 2013...
I'm Sally O'Malley and I'm 50 - YouTube

There are 3 of us. We generally meet up with another group of 4 down there.
Two weekends per year
Hip hop and pop
No grinding. Lots of flirting. The first weekend several inappropriate things happened! Since then our agreement with each other has been honored. Flirting, dancing fine, anything more is not allowed.

I don't get the grinding thing but maybe that's because I'm older. Why would any woman be okay with grinding her crotch on some strange man? What am I missing here?

Groping... Hell! That happens walking through a crowded bar! An elbow mysteriously inserts itself right where your boobs are passing as you walk. Behind you someone accidentally fondles your ass. That's part of being a woman! Used to piss me off now I just ignore it!

One of the group had been involved in an affair for 5 years. She ended after our first weekend together as a result of the groups influence. Her husband doesn't know but suspects. 

And yet,


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Machiavelli said:


> Golden Ratio on the left, almost on the right. Which do you prefer?


Make you wonder how Asians and Indians are the most populous races on the planet....


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Anon Pink said:


> :rofl: all is right with the world again!
> 
> I did this dance in 2013...
> I'm Sally O'Malley and I'm 50 - YouTube
> 
> There are 3 of us. We generally meet up with another group of 4 down there.
> Two weekends per year
> Hip hop and pop
> No grinding. Lots of flirting. The first weekend several inappropriate things happened! Since then our agreement with each other has been honored. Flirting, dancing fine, anything more is not allowed.
> 
> I don't get the grinding thing but maybe that's because I'm older. Why would any woman be okay with grinding her crotch on some strange man? What am I missing here?
> 
> Groping... Hell! That happens walking through a crowded bar! An elbow mysteriously inserts itself right where your boobs are passing as you walk. Behind you someone accidentally fondles your ass. That's part of being a woman! Used to piss me off now I just ignore it!
> 
> One of the group had been involved in an affair for 5 years. She ended after our first weekend together as a result of the groups influence. Her husband doesn't know but suspects.
> 
> And yet,


I see what you are saying and agree this is positive.

and yet, without that talk, you acknowledge that the first weekend resulted in inappropriate stuff happening. This great group actually was not always so great.

Again, not to say that cheating or bad stuff always happens. But this groups of great women, which eventually decided to self police itself, did get into a situation it should not be in (as you acknowledged).


----------



## Anon Pink

Yup. Had to be honest our first weekend together could have been a disaster! I can't really say for sure why though. I tend to think it was because we didn't have our gay friend with us. He always acted as a **** blocker but we never really noticed until he stopped coming out with us.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I know why, Anon...it because wimmins be horny.


----------



## Anon Pink

Faithful Wife said:


> I know why, Anon...it because wimmins be horny.


Each weekend I take some gifts for everyone. They gets a new sex toy for the June weekend, booze for the October weekend! First time I gave everyone dildos, last time it was nipple clamps and this time vibrator finger toy.


----------



## Decorum

Anon, did the wife(s) in the "inappropriate" situations tell their husbands?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Anon Pink said:


> I go clubbing on my girls weekends, even dance with other men! Have yet to end up in some guys condo, car, lap or any other place inappropriate. I've even been silly drunk and it hasn't happened.
> 
> Why do men always think a drunk woman, or a woman out dancing is going to end up in bed with some man?


Because I've brought home so many drunk women out dancing I've literally lost count (while I was single).

And been out with the boys and had married drunk women "just out with the girls" pass me hotel room keys/phone numbers/get invited to the john for a quicky so many times it's ridiculous.

You're playing with fire... MAYBE you can handle it just like I could handle cornering my sports bike at ~150km/hr... but it doesn't mean it's a good idea.

It just takes that one time when you're mad at your hubby and mr wonderful comes in and turns your crank after 1 too many drinks and all your girlfriends are egging you on... and it's just a dance, just a grope, just a kiss, just walking you to your car, just chatting in the car, just your top off, and then what the hell, you've come that far...

As an example, my single buddy just had a girl pick him up at the bar, literally by walking up to him as he was leaving and asking him to take her back to his place. They get naked, he puts a condom on, and is literally about to put it inside and she blurts out "I'm married!"

... and she was shocked when he threw her out the door, naked. He had her card, she was a successful, intelligent attorney with a husband and kids at home who swears "she didn't mean for it to happen" and "It was the first time!"

Ya, right.

Advice to men who want their women to chase after them: be the guy they'd have an affair with.

Advice to both men and women who want to stay faithful: don't put yourself repeatedly in a context where you're not encouraged to be faithful.

Ignore your biology at your peril. Modern humans with modern brains have been around 100K-300K years. Our society and version of marriage is, what, 1000 years old at best?

Your limbic system (that drives much of your sexual response) has been around for 500x that at least. It has it's own ideas about your reproductive strategy. It's smarter than you, been around the block more than you, and wants you to make babies with genetically fit members of the opposite sex at almost any cost. 

Dull that neocortex with booze and your limbic system can win. Dull that neocortex by being surrounded by bad behaviour and it can win. Dull that neocortex with justifications and rationalizations and it can win.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Faithful Wife said:


> I know why, Anon...it because wimmins be horny.


That is a good point for everyone to remember. All too often in these scenarios, folks seem to think that women would never fall to their baser urges. That they can dance right up to the line and never accidentally cross it because, well, because women don't do that. 

Yet AP's group shows that some good and decent women did just that, likely at least in part because they thought they would never do something like that. Women are human, they have sexual urges, they make mistakes and make poor decisions when drinking, just like men.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Anon Pink said:


> Each weekend I take some gifts for everyone. They gets a new sex toy for the June weekend, booze for the October weekend! First time I gave everyone dildos, last time it was nipple clamps and this time vibrator finger toy.


I bet you're scaring the crap out of some husbands who are reading right now.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Tall Average Guy said:


> That is a good point for everyone to remember. All too often in these scenarios, folks seem to think that women would never fall to their baser urges. That they can dance right up to the line and never accidentally cross it because, well, because women don't do that.
> 
> Yet AP's group shows that some good and decent women did just that, likely at least in part because they thought they would never do something like that. Women are human, they have sexual urges, they make mistakes and make poor decisions when drinking, just like men.


Also, contrary to what some believe, it doesn't take a V-shaped torso for wimmins to be horny. We already *ARE* horny. Sometimes it has nothing to do with any other person, we're just bubbling cauldrons of lust on our own.

Some of us more than others. You need to know your spouse very well. Some women will/would just never, ever feel those urges. Some will feel them all the time. Some will feel them only sometimes.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Omego said:


> :iagree: This is completely accurate. In my opinion sex appeal is at the top of the list of things necessary to maintain a relationship.
> 
> I also feel that men who have "it" if you will, this sex-appeal, are probably not going to find themselves in the some of the situations we read about on here.
> 
> Call it V-shape, if you want, but it basically boils down to self-confidence and the vibe that the man gives off. And there's no way around the fact that fit men are attractive. Strength is attractive.


this is a fun thread. I think a man could have "it" and nonetheless find himself in some of these situations, like getting the ILYBINILWY speech. In order to prove he still has "it" though, in that circumstance, his response needs to be something very akin to "OK. fvck you then. I'll find somone else." He has to give her that response in the first 24 hours after her speech, else evidence starts to accumulate that he has lost or is losing "it."


----------



## nuclearnightmare

JCD said:


> Um...no. That is a trifle pessimistic and insulting.
> 
> In my recent experiences, I've had all kinds of 'willing' thrown at me and gone to places which are 'not marriage friendly' if you take 'not' as FRIGGING AWFUL.
> 
> And yet, I did not fall or stray.
> 
> I agree that this is still a very large concern, but to say she has NO self control is a trifle over the top.
> 
> But in the context of their relationship, I would be worried.


I agree. but I think he's feeling both anxious and a bit disrespected. she's crossing what is for many husbands a clear boundary (dont go to hookup venues). IMO crossing or not observing each other's marital boundaries doesn't alweays lead to cheating, but it always indicates a lack of respect.


----------



## Anon Pink

Okay, so now that I've opened this can of worms....

TAG has it right, as far as I could tell. For me personally, I make sure to get laid good and proper several times just before we leave. FW is also right, I didn't notice any V shaped torso.

The first weekend one friend made out with another man. They went out to the parking lot to get her jacket. When she got back she told us, we laughed and laughed, thought it was hilarious! She thought this younger man hitting on her was the bomb! The next morning we did not. She broke the girl code too! Never Leave WithOut All Of Us Together!!!! Anything could have happened! 

My husband and I did talk about all that happened. He seemed very worried that we would behave that way. We had never really discussed boundaries before but we did then. He is okay with me dancing with other men, he's hasn't said anything about accepting drinks from other men he is not okay with leaving any establishment with anyone other than then women I travel with. I love to dance but do not grind my body on other men!

I'll tell you honestly, I don't notice other groups of women, not our age at least, getting crazy and making out with other men. I see dancing, and I see a lot of pick up attempts, but I don't see people making out or scoring.

I already told the OP he needs to make his relationship strong and assert his boundaries. I think this is true for other men too, if they're worried about their wives going on GNOs.

All t.hat happens the first time we went away. It hasn't happened since and we do some crazy stuff! We met another group of women, all doctors, and we all got stoned together! That was a blast!


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Anon Pink said:


> I go clubbing on my girls weekends, even dance with other men! Have yet to end up in some guys condo, car, lap or any other place inappropriate. I've even been silly drunk and it hasn't happened.
> 
> Why do men always think a drunk woman, or a woman out dancing is going to end up in bed with some man?


Anon:

I bet you've answered this one before so......sorry.......but.....
Is your husband OK with all this? what I mean is 100% supportive OK. anxiety level = 0 OK. has never made a single negative comment about it OK.


----------



## JCD

Reading is fundamental.



Anon Pink said:


> My husband and I did talk about all that happened. He seemed very worried that we would behave that way. We had never really discussed boundaries before but we did then. He is okay with me dancing with other men, he's hasn't said anything about accepting drinks from other men he is not okay with leaving any establishment with anyone other than then women I travel with. I love to dance but do not grind my body on other men!


----------



## Decorum

Anon your honesty is always refreshing.

The OP may not be sure what the "Girl code" is for his wife's little group, perhaps, "What happens at a GNO stays at a GNO"

I wonder about this too Anon. Is it possible, group dynamics being what they may, that your groups standards could lower a little if the right person or two was not able to be there?


----------



## nuclearnightmare

goyaboard1 said:


> OMG. I feel like I have set my wife up for a public flogging and that feels soooo bad.
> 
> It is Alcudia she is going to, thats not as full on as some places I guess.
> we are going on vacation together in july because she felt that june was too soon after her break, i get that and thats fine.
> 
> the ILYBNILWY we have been working through over the last nine months and is going ok. A combination of empty nest syndrome, mid life crisis and life in general seem to have been the issues there. I am still sore from that whole episode and that is where my anxiety comes from, but we are working through it.
> 
> it is just the whole need to go away with the girls thing that i struggle with, why is there a need for that.
> 
> There seem to some reference as to wether I am attractive or not. Its always tricky to describe yourself but here goes; after a lifetime of sport and workouts here are some comments;
> rugged and handsome, great body, lovely smile, hunk, great butt,funny, approachable. not my words so I aint bragging.
> there is a certain air of confidence that can only come with age and experience
> 
> so , all this talk about a girlie holiday and what my wife may or may not do , lets end with a bit of humour. My wife is 58 and i am 59 so the whole clubbing thing is quite funny realy. she is smokin' hot though and i make a point of telling her that, or words to that effect , on a daily basis.
> 
> all the best and thanks


OP
sorry, not buying the 'she ain't so bad' backtracking here....
if your wife is going on her girls-only trip with you remaining "uncomfortable" with it, then she doesn't mean either L from her ILYBINILWY speech. Her "taking you for granted" is on steroids. 

Loving someone is (always) a choice. love is always subjective. but we always have to look at our partners objectively as well. that's how we know when/whether they start to give us reasons to stop loving them. I think your W is giving you a lot of those kinds of reasons. I think you need to stand up to her and stand up for yourself......


----------



## bandit.45

Goya, when your wife calls from her trip and asks what you are doing, tell her you are at massage parlor. Then say " love ya! Gotta go!" Hang up and shut your phone off. 

Guaranteed it will ruin her trip.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JCD

Anon Pink said:


> Okay, so now that I've opened this can of worms....
> 
> TAG has it right, as far as I could tell. For me personally, I make sure to get laid good and proper several times just before we leave. FW is also right, I didn't notice any V shaped torso.


I am not sure I really needed to hear that  Did you notice any 'O' shaped torsos? 




> The first weekend one friend made out with another man. They went out to the parking lot to get her jacket. When she got back she told us, we laughed and laughed, thought it was hilarious! She thought this younger man hitting on her was the bomb! The next morning we did not. She broke the girl code too! Never Leave WithOut All Of Us Together!!!! Anything could have happened!


And (let's be blunt here) You only have HER report of what happened. If I had 'slipped', girl code be damned if I am going to 'give you the skinny' of the bad things I did. Not when you seem to have such strong boundaries sober. So going by self reporting is...a bit sketchy. 

This book I read about female infidelity discussed the fact (anecdotally) that women hide their extramarital sex much more efficiently than men do...and feel isolated and alone because they WILL NOT TELL THEIR FRIENDS. (Though it seems ONE of your friends has)



> My husband and I did talk about all that happened. He seemed very worried that we would behave that way. We had never really discussed boundaries before but we did then. He is okay with me dancing with other men, he's hasn't said anything about accepting drinks from other men he is not okay with leaving any establishment with anyone other than then women I travel with. I love to dance but do not grind my body on other men!


If he told you not to accept drinks, would you listen to him? Sometimes, spouses are forced to accept things that they would rather not. See: my husband's physical appearance.

One wonders, if hubby had a V, if he would 'put up with the girls nights out' (and the corrallary...if hubby had a V, would you WANT to do girl's nights out...when you could be home with HIM instead  )



> I'll tell you honestly, I don't notice other groups of women, *not our age at least,* getting crazy and making out with other men. I see dancing, and I see a lot of pick up attempts, but I don't see people making out or scoring.


See my first point in this response. Would you have known about your jacketless friend if she hadn't blabbed all about it? 

And the bolded portion shows quite blatantly that you are noticing women NOT in your age group behaving somewhat like this. Which is the point of the men who are contradicting you! Some (not all) women ARE doing this stuff. Or perhaps I am misunderstanding that.

I doubt very many women (Hollywood be damned) grab a man's necktie and drag him out to the parking lot to the raucous cheers of her (gossipy) GF's...and any spectators whose identities she is not sure about. It's more like "I am going now. You wait 15 minutes and meet me behind the Safeway..."

At least that is how I would do it if I were a woman 



> I already told the OP he needs to make his relationship strong and assert his boundaries. I think this is true for other men too, if they're worried about their wives going on GNOs.
> 
> All t.hat happens the first time we went away. It hasn't happened since and we do some crazy stuff! We met another group of women, all doctors, and we all got stoned together! That was a blast!


It hasn't happened since...that you know about! After the first incident, when the rest of you 'fell' on the offending party like a ton of bricks, any girl in your group who DOES get the wandering eye has her message loud and clear: Do not tell my friends!

Because, as you state, men ARE trying to pick you up on these junkets. That you turn them down I believe fully. That, to the best of your knowledge, your friends ALSO do not do anything, I believe fully as well.

I just believe that based upon the history you outlined, very few if any of your friends are going to self confess any more...for obvious reasons, particularly if you cut that cheating wife out of your group. It isn't that you are lying. It is that your information might be incomplete.

But to your principle point, I agree with and believe you. Yes, men and women can blow off a little steam even in slightly risky circumstances. Sort of like fly fishing near some rapids or falls. The risk enhances the experience.

But like that, a misstep or slip can have devastating consequences. In fishing, however, it's pretty public. Less so when it's just two people wanting to get sweaty together.

Your advice to the OP is good. And IF I am fishing near the falls, I would go with an attentive and perceptive group...so the worst I get is a good soaking. It seems you have established that with your little group...to the limits of your knowledge


----------



## JCD

Decorum said:


> Anon your honesty is always refreshing.
> 
> The OP may not be sure what the "Girl code" is for his wife's little group, perhaps, "What happens at a GNO stays at a GNO"
> 
> I wonder about this too Anon. Is it possible, group dynamics being what they may, that your groups standards could lower a little if the right person or two was not able to be there?


I recall a conversation I had. It was a group of three men visiting a store where one (1) of us knew the ladies in the store.

"Harry is going to be gone next week. And if he's gone, I'm single." she said quite bluntly.

Maybe it was boasting. Maybe it was an offer to the guy who knew her. Who can know?


----------



## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> Goya, when your wife calls from her trip and asks what you are doing, tell her you are at massage parlor. Then say " love ya! Gotta go!" Hang up and shut your phone off.
> 
> Guaranteed it will ruin her trip.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::lol:


----------



## Faithful Wife

JCD said: *(let's be blunt here) You only have HER report of what happened. If I had 'slipped', girl code be damned if I am going to 'give you the skinny' of the bad things I did. Not when you seem to have such strong boundaries sober. So going by self reporting is...a bit sketchy. 

This book I read about female infidelity discussed the fact (anecdotally) that women hide their extramarital sex much more efficiently than men do...and feel isolated and alone because they WILL NOT TELL THEIR FRIENDS. (Though it seems ONE of your friends has)* (end quote)

It depends on the woman and her friends. My friends have told me details they wouldn't tell God, even if He already knew...but they couldn't wait to tell me.

I have some true bad girl friends and have been one myself.

I've also had "good girl" friends who slipped up and regretted everything, and they also told me everything.

Some of us get to hear all the dirt.


----------



## Anon Pink

JCD said:


> I am not sure I really needed to hear that  Did you notice any 'O' shaped torsos?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And (let's be blunt here) You only have HER report of what happened. If I had 'slipped', girl code be damned if I am going to 'give you the skinny' of the bad things I did. Not when you seem to have such strong boundaries sober. So going by self reporting is...a bit sketchy.
> 
> This book I read about female infidelity discussed the fact (anecdotally) that women hide their extramarital sex much more efficiently than men do...and feel isolated and alone because they WILL NOT TELL THEIR FRIENDS. (Though it seems ONE of your friends has)
> 
> 
> 
> If he told you not to accept drinks, would you listen to him? Sometimes, spouses are forced to accept things that they would rather not. See: my husband's physical appearance.
> 
> One wonders, if hubby had a V, if he would 'put up with the girls nights out' (and the corrallary...if hubby had a V, would you WANT to do girl's nights out...when you could be home with HIM instead  )
> 
> 
> 
> See my first point in this response. Would you have known about your jacketless friend if she hadn't blabbed all about it?
> 
> And the bolded portion shows quite blatantly that you are noticing women NOT in your age group behaving somewhat like this. Which is the point of the men who are contradicting you! Some (not all) women ARE doing this stuff. Or perhaps I am misunderstanding that.
> 
> I doubt very many women (Hollywood be damned) grab a man's necktie and drag him out to the parking lot to the raucous cheers of her (gossipy) GF's...and any spectators whose identities she is not sure about. It's more like "I am going now. You wait 15 minutes and meet me behind the Safeway..."
> 
> At least that is how I would do it if I were a woman
> 
> 
> 
> It hasn't happened since...that you know about! After the first incident, when the rest of you 'fell' on the offending party like a ton of bricks, any girl in your group who DOES get the wandering eye has her message loud and clear: Do not tell my friends!
> 
> Because, as you state, men ARE trying to pick you up on these junkets. That you turn them down I believe fully. That, to the best of your knowledge, your friends ALSO do not do anything, I believe fully as well.
> 
> I just believe that based upon the history you outlined, very few if any of your friends are going to self confess any more...for obvious reasons, particularly if you cut that cheating wife out of your group. It isn't that you are lying. It is that your information might be incomplete.
> 
> But to your principle point, I agree with and believe you. Yes, men and women can blow off a little steam even in slightly risky circumstances. Sort of like fly fishing near some rapids or falls. The risk enhances the experience.
> 
> But like that, a misstep or slip can have devastating consequences. In fishing, however, it's pretty public. Less so when it's just two people wanting to get sweaty together.
> 
> Your advice to the OP is good. And IF I am fishing near the falls, I would go with an attentive and perceptive group...so the worst I get is a good soaking. It seems you have established that with your little group...to the limits of your knowledge



You raise a good point about husbands being in shape, I really can't answer. Physical appearance is not AS important as it has been portrayed in this thread, but it's important to be is some semblance of good shape. I don't think I'd be as eager to go if my husband maintained his shape AND he also took regular weekends with the guys. He does a gold weekend in October.

I have to disagree about your suspicions of not being told the truth from my friend. We've been best buds since we were 12. We tell each other EVERYTHING! I mean everything! You're just going to have to believe me. If more had happened, she would have told. If she wanted to do it again on subsequent trips we wouldn't have stopped her. 

I have several friends who have had affairs and one who is currently having an affair. This doesn't affect me at all. I don't see how people can split themselves into two different beings. I don't see how you can even develop a relationship with a potential AP and not see it happening!


----------



## Anon Pink

Decorum said:


> Anon your honesty is always refreshing.
> 
> The OP may not be sure what the "Girl code" is for his wife's little group, perhaps, "What happens at a GNO stays at a GNO"
> 
> I wonder about this too Anon. Is it possible, group dynamics being what they may, that your groups standards could lower a little if the right person or two was not able to be there?


I can only speak for our group but we wouldn't go if we weren't all together. My personal standards...? They would probably be even stricter with some other group. I trust my girls implicitly and don't give trust easily.


----------



## bandit.45

Anon Pink said:


> I can only speak for our group but we wouldn't go if we weren't all together. My personal standards...? They would probably be even stricter with some other group. I trust my girls implicitly and don't give trust easily.


Then why do you remain friends with a gal who is actively cheating?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

Lol! Yeah Anon, why are you friends with a wh*re?


----------



## BradWesley

bandit.45 said:


> Then why do you remain friends with a gal who is actively cheating?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have friends, co-workers and business associates who I know are having affairs. Doesn't mean I'm going to drop them like a bad habit.

That's their business if they want to wreck their marriage. And BTW, I won't rat out any of them. Just my policy!


----------



## Anon Pink

bandit.45 said:


> Then why do you remain friends with a gal who is actively cheating?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because TAM rules are not my rules. Seriously? I've already answered this question but I'll say it again. BFFs since age 12, love her to pieces, she is the best friend anyone could possibly ask for.


----------



## bandit.45

BradWesley said:


> I have friends, co-workers and business associates who I know are having affairs. Doesn't mean I'm going to drop them like a bad habit.
> 
> That's their business if they want to wreck their marriage. And BTW, I won't rat out any of them. Just my policy!


Interesting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BradWesley

bandit.45 said:


> Interesting.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How so?


----------



## Anon Pink

Faithful Wife said:


> Lol! Yeah Anon, why are you friends with a wh*re?


I'm a bigger wh0re then she is! I have a lot more sex and play with a lot more toys. 

Besides, the one actively cheating... She deserves every bit of loving she can get! She is stuck in a horrible sitch and no I won't go into it.


----------



## bandit.45

BradWesley said:


> How so?


How what?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

Anon Pink said:


> I'm a bigger wh0re then she is! I have a lot more sex and play with a lot more toys.
> 
> Besides, the one actively cheating... She deserves every bit of loving she can get! She is stuck in a horrible sitch and no I won't go into it.


Fascinating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lovelygirl

Machiavelli said:


> I wasn't married in my twenties, for the most part, although a lot of this continued up into my late thirties. These days, at my advanced age, my sex rank is just not high enough for a woman to risk the really outrageous stuff. Once a guy turns down an overt play for sex from a girl, she will almost never try again, because it's a huge insult to be rejected after a blatant invitation.
> 
> My wife used to get mad when I would tell her about these things. She wanted me to file a sexual harassment complaint at work. But, it was good for our marriage that she knew other women were after me. She didn't get complacent until I got fat.


Yeah, I understand the intention behind your stories and what you're trying to tell your wife.
But you talk about what these women do as if it was very normal. 
Plus, I got the impression that they still do it with you even nowadays. 

If they still did, what would you do?


----------



## BradWesley

bandit.45 said:


> How what?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How is what I said interesting to you. Just curious.


----------



## bandit.45

BradWesley said:


> How is what I said interesting to you. Just curious.


You don't believe the people you are friends with reflect upon who you are as a person? Your creed? Your standards ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Caribbean Man

BradWesley said:


> I have friends, co-workers and business associates who I know are having affairs. Doesn't mean I'm going to drop them like a bad habit.
> 
> *That's their business if they want to wreck their marriage. And BTW, I won't rat out any of them. Just my policy!*




So i guess you wouldn't have a problem if your wife had been cheating and having affairs without your knowledge, for the greater part of your marriage , and all of your friends knew, but they chose to keep her affair and you in the dark.

LMAO..

Birds of a feather?


----------



## BradWesley

bandit.45 said:


> You don't believe the people you are friends with reflect upon who you are as a person? Your creed? Your standards ?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nope, not at all. Keep in mind I'm not a member of the morality police.


----------



## Machiavelli

ThreeStrikes said:


> Make you wonder how Asians and Indians are the most populous races on the planet....


Arranged marriage.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I have friends who have been or are criminals, sex workers, cheaters, liars, thieves, attorneys, multi-millionaires, cops, druggies, business owners....and some of these are more than one of the words on that list.

Also have friends who are social workers, healers, pastors, virgins (by choice), victim advocates, grief and death counselors...and some of these are on my above list, too.

Do I believe my friends reflect upon me as a person, my creed, and my standards? Sure! Do I think others might be like "oh so you're friends with someone who would x, y, or z", sure! They might. That person (the one who was judging me) would then be out of my life. Who cares what others think? I'm not out to impress anyone.


----------



## bandit.45

BradWesley said:


> Nope, not at all. Keep in mind I'm not a member of the morality police.


Oh. Okay.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

Faithful Wife said:


> I have friends who have been or are criminals, sex workers, cheaters, liars, thieves, attorneys, multi-millionaires, cops, druggies, business owners....and some of these are more than one of the words on that list.
> 
> Also have friends who are social workers, healers, pastors, virgins (by choice), victim advocates, grief and death counselors...and some of these are on my above list, too.
> 
> Do I believe my friends reflect upon me as a person, my creed, and my standards? Sure! Do I think others might be like "oh so you're friends with someone who would x, y, or z", sure! They might. That person would then be out of my life.


Gotcha.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Machiavelli

Faithful Wife said:


> Also, contrary to what some believe, it doesn't take a V-shaped torso for wimmins to be horny. We already *ARE* horny. Sometimes it has nothing to do with any other person, we're just bubbling cauldrons of lust on our own.


Okay, you're a bubbling cauldron of lust. These are the two guys at the club, who gets the call?


----------



## Faithful Wife

How many times are you going to post that picture with only two choices, Mach? Seen it. Not impressed. There is such a thing as a man who is in between those two examples. Duh.


----------



## tom67

Machiavelli said:


> Okay, you're a bubbling cauldron of lust. These are the two guys at the club, who gets the call?


:rofl:


----------



## Caribbean Man

Machiavelli said:


> Arranged marriage.


And a bit of soft polygamy too.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Must be the first time you've seen it, Tom?

At least the 10th time I've seen it now. (yawn)


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Machiavelli said:


> Okay, you're a bubbling cauldron of lust. These are the two guys at the club, who gets the call?


The one with the biggest......



bank account


----------



## Machiavelli

Faithful Wife said:


> How many times are you going to post that picture with only two choices, Mach? Seen it. Not impressed. There is such a thing as a man who is in between those two examples. Duh.


Okay, a third choice:


----------



## Faithful Wife

What's your point, Mach? I'm a highly sexual woman and most of my friends are, too. I'm quite aware of who we'd f*ck. I'm not confused by your point (that women are turned on at a primal level for a man who is v-shaped). But your two examples have literally nothing to do with what I'm saying which is that some women are just plain horny and aren't just looking for that certain shape of man when a very average man will do just fine (since some very average men have way more than average sexual prowess and skills).

So if you are just posting them to mock me, um, ok...I guess, good job! Since it has nothing to do with what I'm saying, you aren't mocking me but, whatever floats your boat.


----------



## BradWesley

Caribbean Man said:


> So i guess you wouldn't have a problem if your wife had been cheating and having affairs without your knowledge, for the greater part of your marriage , and all of your friends knew, but they chose to keep her affair and you in the dark.
> 
> LMAO..
> 
> Birds of a feather?


My ex wife did have an affair with a co-worker. None of our mutual friends knew about it, nor did any of her co-workers.

Only my gut feeling told me something was wrong, and the PI firm I hired confirmed my suspicions. 

My reaction to the affair was swift and extremely harsh. My ex was severely damaged financially and psychology, while the OM was completely psychology and emotionally destroyed.


----------



## Machiavelli

And here's David option #4:


----------



## Ikaika

Machiavelli said:


> Okay, a third choice:



Side note: It is actually a bit sad that we even have to consider this as an option. Rather than belittle, I am sadden by who we have become as a nation. End thread jack.


----------



## Caribbean Man

BradWesley said:


> My ex wife did have an affair with a co-worker. None of our mutual friends knew about it, nor did any of her co-workers.
> 
> Only my gut feeling told me something was wrong, and the PI firm I hired confirmed my suspicions.
> 
> My reaction to the affair was swift and extremely harsh. My ex was severely damaged financially and psychology, while the OM was completely psychology and emotionally destroyed.


But you haven't answered the question.

A basic principle in life is that we should do for others like we would want them to do for us.

Would you have a problem if your friends knew about the affair, hid it, and probably supported her purposely and didn't tell you ?


----------



## Entropy3000

Anon Pink said:


> I go clubbing on my girls weekends, even dance with other men! Have yet to end up in some guys condo, car, lap or any other place inappropriate. I've even been silly drunk and it hasn't happened.
> 
> Why do men always think a drunk woman, or a woman out dancing is going to end up in bed with some man?


It is why men go to these clubs to pickup women. Remember a succesfull strategy only has to work often enough. It does not have to work everytime.


----------



## Faithful Wife

She knows that, Ent. She's a big girl.


----------



## BradWesley

Caribbean Man said:


> But you haven't answered the question.
> 
> A basic principle in life is that we should do for others like we would want them to do for us.
> 
> Would you have a problem if your friends knew about the affair, hid it, and probably supported her purposely and didn't tell you ?


I would not have a problem if a friend(s) knew but didn't tell me. I would not expect them to get involved.

Everyone has different principles they live according to. What might work for you, won't apply to me.


----------



## MSP

If women seriously think that men just go to clubs to dance, well, I have a bridge to sell them.


----------



## Faithful Wife

What woman has said she isn't aware that men are looking to hook up in clubs?


----------



## MSP

Anon Pink said:


> Besides, the one actively cheating... She deserves every bit of loving she can get!


Interesting how, when you feel emotionally attached to someone, their actions become almost blameless. You know that this means you are only a step away from doing the same thing, if you can also justify it, based on your own situation?


----------



## Caribbean Man

BradWesley said:


> I would not have a problem if a friend(s) knew but didn't tell me. I would not expect them to get involved.
> 
> Everyone has different principles they live according to. What might work for you, won't apply to me.


Are you saying that doing for others as you would like them to do for you doesn't make up part of the group of principles you live by?

So what's your principle?

Every man/ woman fend for themselves?


----------



## MSP

Faithful Wife said:


> What woman has said she isn't aware that men are looking to hook up in clubs?


Okay, sure. No problem. Therefore, women are fully aware that they are going into an environment where men are looking to pick them up. And they're dancing with these men. 

Tell me what is different about this than, say, a husband who knows his young, hot coworker wants to seduce him and he deliberately seeks her out to spend time with?


----------



## Entropy3000

Faithful Wife said:


> Also, contrary to what some believe, it doesn't take a V-shaped torso for wimmins to be horny. We already *ARE* horny. Sometimes it has nothing to do with any other person, we're just bubbling cauldrons of lust on our own.
> 
> Some of us more than others. You need to know your spouse very well. Some women will/would just never, ever feel those urges. Some will feel them all the time. Some will feel them only sometimes.


And while I concur about a guy being in shape and on average be more attractive not all guys who are attractive are like that. Sometimes women like a man for other reasons. Go figure.


----------



## bandit.45

I like how we are all getting to know each other here. 

Just warms my c0ckles.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

MSP said:


> Okay, sure. No problem. Therefore, women are fully aware that they are going into an environment where men are looking to pick them up. And they're dancing with these men.
> 
> Tell me what is different about this than, say, a husband who knows his young, hot coworker wants to seduce him and he deliberately seeks her out to spend time with?


A co-worker is someone you see every day.

Dude-bros looking to score in a club you will see once in your lifetime, and they are not fascinated with you personally, they are just horn-dogs.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Entropy3000 said:


> And while I concur about a guy being in shape and on average be more attractive not all guys who are attractive are like that. Sometimes women like a man for other reasons. Go figure.


Ummm....yesss....that was the point I made.

But Mach seems bent on the idea that it is just so HILARIOUS to post the same pic with only two options on it "here, choose one!" Oh yeah, that's really the only two choices we have.

And he's the one who loves to bring up bell curves all the time.

Yet in his example, only one extreme or the other exists. Whatevs.


----------



## Caribbean Man

bandit.45 said:


> I like how we are all getting* to know* each other here.
> 
> Just warms my c0ckles.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Me too.

And the backwards rationalization?

I LOVE it!


----------



## Anon Pink

Entropy3000 said:


> It is why men go to these clubs to pickup women. Remember a succesfull strategy only has to work often enough. It does not have to work everytime.


No kidding! American men only learn to dance to pick up women! But the fact remains that dancing is fun!




MSP said:


> Interesting how, when you feel emotionally attached to someone, their actions become almost blameless. You know that this means you are only a step away from doing the same thing, if you can also justify it, based on your own situation?


I don't think so, I justify her cheating, but I'd much rather she ditch her H. Unfortunately, she can't right now.

You're suggesting I'm only a step away from cheating? Ummm no.

Is this the way it's going to go again! I admit I have some friends who cheat, I admit I'm not about to tie them to a stake but instead remain friends and now I'm a cheater? Okay, if that helps you sleep at night.


----------



## MSP

Faithful Wife said:


> A co-worker is someone you see every day.
> 
> Dude-bros looking to score in a club you will see once in your lifetime, and they are not fascinated with you personally, they are just horn-dogs.


Ah, so the difference is that a guy at a club wanting sex doesn't have the time to build up a relationship? The good news for him is that there's a handy way around this that women voluntarily employ on themselves to lower that barrier: alcohol.


----------



## bandit.45

If ever convert to Judaism , and there is ever another holocaust, I have a good idea who on TAM would stand up for my right to exist and who would look the other way while I'm being stood up against the wall....all because it's none of their business and they are not the morality police. 

I need to write down that list of names.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

I'm not actually allowed to party like Anon is (per the rules of my marriage), but I know she's not going to get in trouble.


----------



## Anon Pink

MSP said:


> Okay, sure. No problem. Therefore, women are fully aware that they are going into an environment where men are looking to pick them up. And they're dancing with these men.
> 
> Tell me what is different about this than, say, a husband who knows his young, hot coworker wants to seduce him and he deliberately seeks her out to spend time with?


Does he seek her out to complete work related stuff?

We go to clubs to dance. Unfortunately, this means there are MEN there! And we dance with MEN! It's just dancing.


----------



## Caribbean Man

When I was a boy, my grandfather used to tell me this about friends:

_" CM, a friend who would lie for you, will lie to you. Choose your friends carefully.."_

Sad to say, I had to burn to learn and it literally cost me lots of money.

He was a wise man.


----------



## Faithful Wife

MSP said:


> Ah, so the difference is that a guy at a club wanting sex doesn't have the time to build up a relationship? The good news for him is that there's a handy way around this that women voluntarily employ on themselves to lower that barrier: alcohol.


Yep and since many of those women will be single and available, he'll probably hook up with one of those.

But does it happen that dudes pick up married chicks in clubs? Yep, it happens.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that all married women should go out clubbing (and I have never said that, and I don't do that).

But Anon is speaking for herself. She knows and enforces her own boundaries and only has to answer to her husband, not some dudes on TAM.


----------



## Anon Pink

Look, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on drinking, dancing and clubbing. 

Some women might make bad moves, but that doesn't mean we all do. Some men might be rapists, but that doesn't mean they all are.

It's hard ass work to fix a marriage. Do you think I'd be here AT ALL if I was okay with going out and finding another man? Do you think fixing a broken marriage is something someone does if they are already willing to get some luving on the side?


----------



## Faithful Wife

I got friends in low places.

Like you Anon, sweetie!


----------



## Anon Pink

Caribbean Man said:


> When I was a boy, my grandfather used to tell me this about friends:
> 
> _" CM, a friend who would lie for you, will lie to you. Choose your friends carefully.."_
> 
> Sad to say, I had to burn to learn and it literally cost me lots of money.
> 
> He was a wise man.


If that was inferred toward me I entirely resent that. Should any of those husband ever have the balls to ask me anything I would simply tell them to ask their wives and to leave me out of it. You might think it skirts the edge of a lie but it doesn't. My loyalty is to my friend, not to their husband.

Have a lovely evening everyone.


----------



## bandit.45

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! That's classic!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Caribbean Man

Anon Pink said:


> If that was inferred toward me I entirely resent that. Should any of those husband ever have the balls to ask me anything I would simply tell them to ask their wives and to leave me out of it. You might think it skirts the edge of a lie but it doesn't. My loyalty is to my friend, not to their husband.
> 
> Have a lovely evening everyone.


All I'm saying is put yourself in your friend's husband shoes.

If your husband was having an affair, and his golfing buddies knew, and encouraged him because they didn't like you.

How would you feel?

Even if you won't tell her husband, I don't think it's right to encourage her in her affairs.

She's doing herself harm by having those affairs.

If something really bad happens to her because of her affairs ,then you'd probably regret encouraging her in her affairs.


----------



## bandit.45

You're wasting air CM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MSP

Anon Pink said:


> Does he seek her out to complete work related stuff?


Of course! Why else? 



Anon Pink said:


> We go to clubs to dance. Unfortunately, this means there are MEN there! And we dance with MEN! It's just dancing.


Yes, how terribly unfortunate that there are men there. If there were not men there who wanted to have sex with you, it would be boring. You'd have to--oh, I dunno--dance with other girls or something.



Anon Pink said:


> It's hard ass work to fix a marriage. Do you think I'd be here AT ALL if I was okay with going out and finding another man? Do you think fixing a broken marriage is something someone does if they are already willing to get some luving on the side?


Yeah, you're not a horrible person. But the truth is, you're actually making your marriage harder work by doing this. You can have GNOs without clubbing. But you knew that already.


----------



## MSP

Anon Pink said:


> My loyalty is to my friend, not to their husband.


In other words, clubbing together as a group of girls has nothing at all to do with accountability.


----------



## weightlifter

Questions anon. I love your honesty. Wasnt expecting it. Thanks. You rock.

1). First trip, several inappropriate things happened. You mentioned one. What were the others? No details, your description is good unuf and ill assume it really was a make out.
2). Did husband of mrs make out find out or suspect? If not "girl code" of dont tell was in effect.
3). Call me caveman but my wife deliberately going to a place being groped is a certainty is a bad thing. Dancing with other strange men is also something i and i would imagine most men would object to. I assume your husband knows about both.
I realize different relationships have different rules. Ive certainly seen more relaxed sets of rules than yours.
Point. Both women here in this thread (thanks FW) admit members of their group at the very least have done inappropriate things.

OP. You see where this is going right? I stick with my russian roulette analogy. The weak status of your marriage is the equivalent of two extra bullets just by itself.

Again thanks anon.


----------



## Machiavelli

Faithful Wife said:


> So if you are just posting them to mock me, um, ok...I guess, good job! Since it has nothing to do with what I'm saying, you aren't mocking me but, whatever floats your boat.


I'm just having fun.


----------



## Machiavelli

Caribbean Man said:


> And a bit of soft polygamy too.


Only for the last century. Before that, hard core polygamy.


----------



## MSP

Anon Pink said:


> I justify her cheating, but I'd much rather she ditch her H. Unfortunately, she can't right now.
> 
> You're suggesting I'm only a step away from cheating? Ummm no.
> 
> Is this the way it's going to go again! I admit I have some friends who cheat, I admit I'm not about to tie them to a stake but instead remain friends and now I'm a cheater? Okay, if that helps you sleep at night.


No, I didn't say you're a cheater. I said that if you can justify your friend's cheating, then cheating can be justified. If cheating can be justified, then you could, in the future, justify it for yourself, too.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Since the OP is gone I shall continue the thread jack. The whole would you tell if you knew someone who cheated debate is one of the things that has always bothered me about TAM. The majority of people on here swear they would tell but I have serious doubts about this. People in the "real world" do tell, but usually only if its a close relative or their best friend that is being cheated on. If you're better friends with the cheater you tend to just mind your own damn business. 

Using myself as an example here, I'm 99.999% sure that my neighbors wife is cheating on him. He wouldn't take it well if I told him this. We are acquaintances at best. He would definitely shoot the messenger. I feel bad for him, but there really isn't a whole lot I can do.


----------



## jld

No kidding, RH. Who would want to get involved in something like that? Chances of it ending badly for the "whistleblower" are high, I would think.


----------



## tom67

ReformedHubby said:


> Since the OP is gone I shall continue the thread jack. The whole would you tell if you knew someone who cheated debate is one of the things that has always bothered me about TAM. The majority of people on here swear they would tell but I have serious doubts about this. People in the "real world" do tell, but usually only if its a close relative or their best friend that is being cheated on. If you're better friends with the cheater you tend to just mind your own damn business.
> 
> Using myself as an example here, I'm 99.999% sure that my neighbors wife is cheating on him. He wouldn't take it well if I told him this. We are acquaintances at best. He would definitely shoot the messenger. I feel bad for him, but there really isn't a whole lot I can do.


Sigh...
Here is what you do take him out to a public place a bar restaurant whatever.
It sounds like you must have seen something somewhere?
If you are that sure just think if it was the other way around that's all.
If he doesn't believe you eff it you tried.


----------



## Entropy3000

Faithful Wife said:


> She knows that, Ent. She's a big girl.


Then she can speak for herself mom.

And don't even think about callin me dad. Or gramps.


----------



## Entropy3000

MSP said:


> If women seriously think that men just go to clubs to dance, well, I have a bridge to sell them.


Both those guys are gay. But one of the best places to go is a gay club to find the women who go there to not be hit on.


----------



## Entropy3000

Anon Pink said:


> No kidding! American men only learn to dance to pick up women! But the fact remains that dancing is fun!


I grew up liking to dance. It is fun. But it is only fun for me with women. Not dancing in a circle with others guys. There is another name for that. Call me weird but the women make it fun.


----------



## tom67

Entropy3000 said:


> I grew up liking to dance. It is fun. But it is only fun for me with women. Not dancing in a circle with others guys. There is another name for that. Call me weird but the women make it fun.


Eh and then dress up like the village people?
And to think at the time I was 9 or 10 I never new they were "different."

Village People - YMCA OFFICIAL Music Video 1978 - YouTube


----------



## Ikaika

Entropy3000 said:


> I grew up liking to dance. It is fun. But it is only fun for me with women. Not dancing in a circle with others guys. There is another name for that. Call me weird but the women make it fun.



Sadly I don't know how to dance. I play the bass and we all know where bass players rank in a band:

1. Lead singer
2. Lead guitar
3. Drummer
4. Rhythm guitar 
5. Keyboards
6. Pyrotechnics crew
7. Lighting crew
8. Roadies
9. Bass player


----------



## ReformedHubby

tom67 said:


> Sigh...
> Here is what you do take him out to a public place a bar restaurant whatever.
> It sounds like you must have seen something somewhere?
> If you are that sure just think if it was the other way around that's all.
> If he doesn't believe you eff it you tried.


Here's the thing. I didn't see anything. My neighbor's wife came up to me when I was outside with my kids very concerned that I had seen at her at a bar in the city. I told her I was there that day but I didn't see her (this was the truth). Apparently she saw me there. That day was the first day of the NCAA tourney and I was at the bar watching basketball with my boys. She then insists that I must have seen her (I didn't!!!). I reiterated that I didn't see her. 

She then mentions, she was there with a guy but he was just a friend. I shrugged my shoulders and say yet again. I didn't see you. I thought it was over with. But....a few of the ladies from the neighborhood went out to a local wine bar recently and my wife went along. My wife ended up driving her back and she asked my wife more than once if I saw her at this bar with her friend. Why is she so concerned???

I don't have enough evidence to tell her husband anything concrete. Her behavior is very, very odd though. If she is cheating she is really bad at it. I thought women were supposed to be more savvy when it comes to infidelity.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Ok Ent, how about Pops? 

And Anon can speak for herself...but I'm pretty sure she dances with guys at these events. She's not talking about only dancing in a circle with just women. 

I still dance, but I do ballroom, salsa and swing, not clubbing. And yep, it is the guys (or girls) I dance with that make it fun (or not). Get a crappy lead and a dance is like prison. Get a wonderful lead, and I'm in heaven.

In the dance world, we call it a three minute marriage.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Come on folks,
Nobody here would like to be cheated on.
Even if we don't want to break the news to a persons spouse , I don't think it is right to encourage the person who's cheating to continue to do so , if they were a friend.

One of the persons instrumental in helping me with my business is a young professional woman I had met through a mutual friend.
The first time she ever set me up on a large contract with an oil company , I was elated and impressed with her connections.
So I asked how come?
She told me Mr. X was her boyfriend.
I found it odd , because MrX was much older than her. She explained to me that he was having problems with his wife , so they got involved.
I in turn explained to her in a very nice way that Mr X was only interested in having sex with her because she was young and attractive and would never leave his wife.
They were involved in that affair for two years.
I told her she was a beautiful woman , bright , young and educated , and could get much better looking guys than Mr X , who she wouldn't have to share with another woman.

She took my advice and dumped Mr X , left the company and got another job.

She met another man , got pregnant and eventually they got married. Meanwhile , she kept me in the loop with some really lucrative contracts from different companies.

I ran into her last year. They're still married and she was pregnant ( again). Anyway we chatted a bit.
She reminded me of that first set of conversations we had , when I explained to her that what she was doing with Mr X was wrong , and was actually harming her.
She said she was thankful , because it made her open her eyes. She couldn't believe how stupid she was.

If I hadn't told her about her affair, she might have been still holding on , waiting for Mr X to divorce his wife.


----------



## weightlifter

ReformedHubby said:


> Here's the thing. I didn't see anything. My neighbor's wife came up to me when I was outside with my kids very concerned that I had seen at her at a bar in the city. I told her I was there that day but I didn't see her (this was the truth). Apparently she saw me there. That day was the first day of the NCAA tourney and I was at the bar watching basketball with my boys. She then insists that I must have seen her (I didn't!!!). I reiterated that I didn't see her.
> 
> She then mentions, she was there with a guy but he was just a friend. I shrugged my shoulders and say yet again. I didn't see you. I thought it was over with. But....a few of the ladies from the neighborhood went out to a local wine bar recently and my wife went along. My wife ended up driving her back and she asked my wife more than once if I saw her at this bar with her friend. Why is she so concerned???
> 
> I don't have enough evidence to tell her husband anything concrete. Her behavior is very, very odd though. If she is cheating she is really bad at it. I thought women were supposed to be more savvy when it comes to infidelity.


LOL I would come up for some way for the hiding to magically fail. Then again. I am mean.


----------



## Decorum

I gawk every time I seem Mach pictures, laugh and then want to claw my eyes out. It never gets old. 

Anon I do appreciate your honesty, it adds a dose of reality to the conversation (the feeding frenzy not-withstanding).

I think how your roll with your friends (i.e. being there for them) is a good quality.



To the Op I would say that I think this is a fairly typical sample of GNO's.

Its not something I would be comfortable with.

As someone said earlier, after both sides state their case, you are well within what is reasonable if you are not comfortable with it as well.

Be true to yourself, its the only thing someone else cannot take or give away.

Peace.


----------



## Entropy3000

tom67 said:


> Eh and then dress up like the village people?
> And to think at the time I was 9 or 10 I never new they were "different."
> 
> Village People - YMCA OFFICIAL Music Video 1978 - YouTube


I wore a sailor suit for years.

In The Navy

And I want to say that ever since getting out of the Navy I have been completely heterosexual. Even when I ran with Flock Of Seagulls.


----------



## tom67

Entropy3000 said:


> I wore a sailor suit for years.
> 
> In The Navy
> 
> And I want to say that ever since getting out of the Navy I have been completely heterosexual. Even when I ran with Flock Of Seagulls.


Army West Germany mainly 85 through 89.
D15 said once "wait where is west Germany"


----------



## bandit.45

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok Ent, how about Pops?
> 
> And Anon can speak for herself...but I'm pretty sure she dances with guys at these events. She's not talking about only dancing in a circle with just women.
> 
> I still dance, but I do ballroom, salsa and swing, not clubbing. And yep, it is the guys (or girls) I dance with that make it fun (or not). Get a crappy lead and a dance is like prison. Get a wonderful lead, and I'm in heaven.
> 
> In the dance world, we call it a three minute marriage.


Well isn't that special.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Entropy3000

drerio said:


> Sadly I don't know how to dance. I play the bass and we all know where bass players rank in a band:
> 
> 1. Lead singer
> 2. Lead guitar
> 3. Drummer
> 4. Rhythm guitar
> 5. Keyboards
> 6. Pyrotechnics crew
> 7. Lighting crew
> 8. Roadies
> 9. Bass player


Drummers have more women concurrently than the rest.


----------



## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> Well isn't that special.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Pinche Bandito


----------



## bandit.45

So every time a married woman dances with a hot guy it's like a short little make believe affair?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Entropy3000

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok Ent, how about Pops?
> 
> And Anon can speak for herself...but I'm pretty sure she dances with guys at these events. She's not talking about only dancing in a circle with just women.
> 
> I still dance, but I do ballroom, salsa and swing, not clubbing. And yep, it is the guys (or girls) I dance with that make it fun (or not). Get a crappy lead and a dance is like prison. Get a wonderful lead, and I'm in heaven.
> 
> In the dance world, we call it a three minute marriage.


Pops is very endearing. In fact I have a FB friend ex coworker. She is Chinese. She still calls me pops.  

And yes I do like Asian women. A few weeks ago when I was in an airport Limo in SF my wife texted me to stay away from the Asian women. I thought that was funny as I was having a nice chat with two Aussie ladies on holiday at that very moment. I let my wife worry about the Asian women. Later I explained I like Aussie women a lot. I remember one from when I was in the Navy. Janine. Yes. But I digress.

So I am ok with pops as long as it is endearing.

Circle Of Women


----------



## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> So every time a married woman dances with a hot guy it's like a short little make believe affair?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can you say double standard?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Maybe something similar to going to a strip club?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Sorry just had to say the strip club thing....I don't actually go to clubs "like that" (bump and grind). The type of dancing I do is not "like that". It is a practiced skill and you can do it (dance with a partner) either clinically, or just as sexually as possible. See, I can dance with my father a nice waltz and it will be a great, wonderful thing! Or I could dance with my husband a great waltz and be melting like butter in love. As a lifelong dancer, this is an effortless transition to make.

Everyone in my family dances across generations. My son is a lady killer in part due to his mad dance skills (mostly tango but many others).

But it does tend to cause problems in relationships for a dancer to date/marry a non-dancer. (Again I don't mean club dancing).

Here's an article about such problems;

Love & Swing (2): Dancing vs. Non-Dancing Significant Others | Swungover*


----------



## Entropy3000

Faithful Wife said:


> Maybe something similar to going to a strip club?


No. Not at all. Clubs are way more real. You do not leave a strip club with a stripper. Usually anyway. I know of an exception.

What I am saying if I want a real hookup I am not going to a strip club. Maybe hangout in a bar near a male review and wait for the crowd to get out ... ah probably not. I just see clubbing as a much more serious environment for a real life hookup.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Anon Pink said:


> I'm a bigger wh0re then she is! I have a lot more sex and play with a lot more toys.
> 
> Besides, the one actively cheating... She deserves every bit of loving she can get! She is stuck in a horrible sitch and no I won't go into it.


Depends on how one defines a *****:

For me a wife cheating on her husband is a *****, with very few exceptions (which I won't go into)
Therefore to me you are not a *****; your friend is. Being friends with a ***** is fine, but never stay married to one.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Machiavelli said:


> Okay, you're a bubbling cauldron of lust. These are the two guys at the club, who gets the call?


Isn't the correct answer neither? One guy is too fat, the other is too effeminate.

How close am I?


----------



## bandit.45

I fvcking hate dancing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MSP

I like horizontal dancing.


----------



## JCD

Caribbean Man said:


> So i guess you wouldn't have a problem if your wife had been cheating and having affairs without your knowledge, for the greater part of your marriage , and all of your friends knew, but they chose to keep her affair and you in the dark.
> 
> LMAO..
> 
> Birds of a feather?


Not at all. This is a personal conundrum.

(Hypothetical)

I am friends with June. I am GOOD friends with June (non sexual). She has displayed personal loyalty to me...and I have reciprocated.

She commits an immoral act. She keyed the car of Richard, her ex BF and she wants an alibi.

She'll get it.

See, I'm June's friend, not Richard's friend.

The conflict would come if I had the same 'quality' of friendship with both June and Richard.

How to solve it? I'll tell you when it comes up.

A friend has your back in a fight. A TRUE friend helps you bury the bodies 

You can justifiably ding Brad or myself for not holding a code of morals above all other relationships. But don't do it too loudly. Because I am betting most, if not all males here would happily 'break their morality' when it comes to a cheating wife or her AP, from hiding money to actually attacking.

Would you take a swing at a man who slept with your wife? Does that break your code of non-violence? 

People have all kinds of exceptions to the rules.


----------



## JCD

MSP said:


> Interesting how, when you feel emotionally attached to someone, their actions become almost blameless. You know that this means you are only a step away from doing the same thing, if you can also justify it, based on your own situation?


You are not in her shoes.

Women historically have had to stay in abusive and dependent relationships because they have few other options. Yes, even in this day and age. See offshore accounts and runaway dads. See 'great dads/sh*tty husbands'.

So (taking this away from Anon), I can easily see a situation where a lovely person I know is in an abusive and sexless relationship who goes out and tries to solve it in ways I don't approve of. FOR THE MOST PART, since she is still the lovely person I know, I am not going to suddenly forget and ignore every single worthwhile and laudatory act and personality trait she has just because she does ONE crappy thing, not even to me, to someone else.

Now, if HE were also my friend...well...it's time for a 'come to Jesus' meeting with her cause she's put me in the middle. We had a thread about that last year. Ended horribly for everyone.

So be cautious about attacking like this. Or are all your friends perfect people?


----------



## melw74

goyaboard1 said:


> Hi All.
> my wife is due to go on a girls only holiday soon. the closer it gets the more anxious i feel about it. I don't want to be controlling or over possesive but i am realy not that comfortable with the whole concept of a girls only holiday in the sun. Why is there a need to do this, I just don't get it.
> She also did this last year when we were going through a tough time. My mind played all sorts of tricks on me then and most likely will this time.
> 
> my wife has asked if I am ok with this. I say i am not thrilled about it but if it makes you happy then go for it .
> 
> 
> what do you guys think about the whole girls only holiday thing?


For me, My husband would feel exactly the same. I really do not see the need for it either, before i was married and had children, yes that would have been the right time to get all that out of the way, but i chose to get married settle down, and have children, so that was then my priority. 

I have to admit, If my husband came home, and told me he was having a mans holiday with his friends i would not like it, or be comfortable with it, Its not that i do not trust him, its just we have responsibilities.

The mistake you made was telling your wife you was Okay with it, I would have said straight away that i was not.


----------



## JCD

intheory said:


> Neither. This "type". I have always preferred skinny men.


This must be some mistake. Or maybe my eyes are bad.

I only saw two men in your post.


----------



## Omego

JCD said:


> This must be some mistake. Or maybe my eyes are bad.
> 
> I only saw two men in your post.


:rofl:

@in theory. I wanted to say that I strongly disagree with your choice!


----------



## Caribbean Man

JCD said:


> Not at all. This is a personal conundrum.
> 
> (Hypothetical)
> 
> I am friends with June. I am GOOD friends with June (non sexual). She has displayed personal loyalty to me...and I have reciprocated.
> 
> She commits an immoral act. She keyed the car of Richard, her ex BF and she wants an alibi.
> 
> She'll get it.
> 
> See, I'm June's friend, not Richard's friend.
> 
> The conflict would come if I had the same 'quality' of friendship with both June and Richard.
> 
> How to solve it? I'll tell you when it comes up.
> 
> *A friend has your back in a fight. A TRUE friend helps you bury the bodies
> 
> You can justifiably ding Brad or myself for not holding a code of morals above all other relationships. But don't do it too loudly. Because I am betting most, if not all males here would happily 'break their morality' when it comes to a cheating wife or her AP, from hiding money to actually attacking.*
> 
> Would you take a swing at a man who slept with your wife? Does that break your code of non-violence?
> 
> People have all kinds of exceptions to the rules.


Right there is the problem that cost me a lot of my so called 
" friends " and even some family members in the past and presently.

That's why I always say I have very few friends.

I cannot defend something if it's goes against my moral code of right and wrong , and my code governs my relationship with all human beings. 
Right and wrong doesn't change because I like or dislike a person. 

I have had to use physical violence in public to defend people who I didn't even know because they were being taken advantage of in my opinion.

My favorite sister in law no longer speaks to me because I exposed her affair to my MIL and her husband.

My best friend from childhood and I are now sworn enemies because he tried to double cross me in a business deal I negotiated for a business we were partners in. 
We were best friends from childhood , and many times I covered his back and helped him bury the bodies. I enabled his wrongdoings and he turned around and did me wrong.
Now I have to defend myself from a lawsuit in court , brought on by another company he did business with and was unscrupulous , when I was a director of his company.

I've learnt the hard way , that there is truly no loyalty among thieves .

If you defend a friend who stole from somebody , he will eventually steal from you.

I will defend a friend who did something wrong if necessary , " _Johnny I like you , we go a long way back ..." _but I can't defend , or encourage his wrongdoing.


----------



## thummper

Anon Pink said:


> Because TAM rules are not my rules. Seriously? I've already answered this question but I'll say it again. BFFs since age 12, love her to pieces, *she is the best friend anyone could possibly ask for.*




How about her husband? Does he know? Is she still *his* best friend?


----------



## JCD

Caribbean Man said:


> Right there is the problem that cost me a lot of my so called
> " friends " and even some family members in the past and presently.
> 
> That's why I always say I have very few friends.
> 
> I cannot defend something if it's goes against my moral code of right and wrong , and my code governs my relationship with all human beings.
> Right and wrong doesn't change because I like or dislike a person.
> 
> I have had to use physical violence in public to defend people who I didn't even know because they were being taken advantage of in my opinion.
> 
> My favorite sister in law no longer speaks to me because I exposed her affair to my MIL and her husband.
> 
> My best friend from childhood and I are now sworn enemies because he tried to double cross me in a business deal I negotiated for a business we were partners in.
> We were best friends from childhood , and many times I covered his back and helped him bury the bodies. I enabled his wrongdoings and he turned around and did me wrong.
> Now I have to defend myself from a lawsuit in court , brought on by another company he did business with and was unscrupulous , when I was a director of his company.
> 
> I've learnt the hard way , that there is truly no loyalty among thieves .
> 
> If you defend a friend who stole from somebody , he will eventually steal from you.
> 
> I will defend a friend who did something wrong if necessary , " _Johnny I like you , we go a long way back ..." _but I can't defend , or encourage his wrongdoing.


I strongly doubt Anon Pink is 'encouraging' her friend in cheating ("You know what Gail? Maybe you should do a BUNCH of men just to make it REALLY HURT when he finds out...")

I think she has a friend she likes and her friend is making HER CHOICES. She has to accept or not accept them. Since it is her friend, and seemingly loyalty is very strong in their group, she is showing that.

I also think there is a difference between 'accepting the flaws in a person' and 'covering for a FLAWED person', i.e. Jim is a stand up guy but maybe he drinks too much occasionally. Kenneth has a long history of petty theft, lies, some scary encounters with women and is cheap to boot. 

Jim is a person with some flaws...Kenneth is bad news waiting to happen to you. We have to go by history with that and I think it is an important distinction.

Because like you've experienced, there are people who are...very flawed. But I have not yet met anyone who is perfect. I am likely to face disappointments in the people in my life. I have to accept this fact. But, and this is an important point, I cannot just throw them away because they disappoint me.

To put it in a religious context: that woman who was a ***** in the Bible. The people with the stones were 'throwing her away' for her flaws...quite literally. It is when people are down that they need the most help to stand back up.

Which comes to judging remorse and character outside the flaws.


----------



## Caribbean Man

JCD said:


> I strongly doubt Anon Pink is 'encouraging' her friend in cheating ("You know what Gail? Maybe you should do a BUNCH of men just to make it REALLY HURT when he finds out...")
> 
> I think she has a friend she likes and her friend is making HER CHOICES. She has to accept or not accept them. Since it is her friend, and seemingly loyalty is very strong in their group, she is showing that.
> 
> I also think there is a difference between 'accepting the flaws in a person' and 'covering for a FLAWED person', i.e. Jim is a stand up guy but maybe he drinks too much occasionally. Kenneth has a long history of petty theft, lies, some scary encounters with women and is cheap to boot.
> 
> Jim is a person with some flaws...Kenneth is bad news waiting to happen to you. We have to go by history with that and I think it is an important distinction.
> 
> Because like you, there are people who are...very flawed. But I have not yet met anyone who is perfect. I am likely to face disappointments in the people in my life. I have to accept this fact. But, and this is an important point, I cannot just throw them away because they disappoint me.
> 
> *To put it in a religious context: that woman who was a ***** in the Bible. The people with the stones were 'throwing her away' for her flaws...quite literally. It is when people are down that they need the most help to stand back up.*
> 
> Which comes to judging remorse and character outside the flaws.


And I think the best way to help someone who's down back on their feet is to show them the RIGHT way.
In the same bible story you quoted, the man who rescued the woman from being stoned to death , said to her:

"_ Woman, go you way and sin no more.."_

I won't appreciate having a friend who can't tell me when I'm doing something wrong.

After all,like you said, none of us are perfect...


----------



## JCD

Caribbean Man said:


> And I think the best way to help someone who's down back on their feet is to show them the RIGHT way.
> In the same bible story you quoted, the man who rescued the woman from being stoned to death , said to her:
> 
> "_ Woman, go you way and sin no more.."_
> 
> I won't appreciate having a friend who can't tell me when I'm doing something wrong.
> 
> After all,like you said, none of us are perfect...


You know what? I pretty much agree with everything you say. You certainly have at least a piece of the Truth. Snakes are snakes, and one can mistakenly befriend a snake.

Unfortunately, it's harder to see a human snake than a reptilian one. Sort of like knowing the difference between a scarlet king snake and a coral snake. Pick the wrong one and it's SKRITCH










Telling the difference between them is far easier than a human, who is polychromatic in their character  They can change their color according to whom they talk to.

So we do the best we can.

And yes, I prefer my friends to tell me when I am acting like an ass. Sometimes badgers don't get human nuance. Butt sniffing is quite acceptable among quadrupeds...

We are also curtailed in 'living someone else's lives for them'. We can say the words, but they have to walk the walk. And it might not take the first discussion.

Just saying.


----------



## Anon Pink

Caribbean Man said:


> And I think the best way to help someone who's down back on their feet is to show them the RIGHT way.
> In the same bible story you quoted, the man who rescued the woman from being stoned to death , said to her:
> 
> "_ Woman, go you way and sin no more.."_
> 
> I won't appreciate having a friend who can't tell me when I'm doing something wrong.
> 
> After all,like you said, none of us are perfect...


I think you assume too much. 

Are you suggesting you hold everyone in your life accountable to the same standards you uphold? That is quite a burden to carry!

I do not. Having been through much I've had to work through much and become a tad more self aware than many people I know. As a result, I see behavior chains that lead to errors in thinking; minimizing, deflecting, rationalizing... We all do it to a certain extent.

One of my good friends has a great deal of anxiety which leads her to be controlling in some respects and completely blind in other respects. As a result, she is raising a son who will likely never be able to stand on his own two feet in his professional or personal life. He is being coddled to deformity. I adore her but see how her flaws are creating a monster in her child. What to do? Absolutely nothing. If she were to ask my thoughts I would give them, but until then I simply avoid seeing her when she is with her son. She is also a beast to her husband, a very nice man. Those two aspects of her personhood are things I can't abide. But when it is just the two of us, she is a great deal of fun to be around. And she is a loving and loyal friend.

It is one of the dangers of being self aware. You see the mistakes other people are making but you must hold back because we are all on different places of self development.

And just to be certain, turning a blind eye to something a friend does is not encouragement.


----------



## JCD

MSP said:


> I like horizontal dancing.


Most people do.


----------



## Wolf1974

JCD said:


> Most people do.


The horizontal hokey pokey :smthumbup:


----------



## ReformedHubby

I can actually understand AP's position. Speaking for myself I have had friends and relatives who cheated on their spouses as well. I advised them to stop, but when they wouldn't I didn't just cut them out of my life. As a former adulterer myself I'm not 100% evil to the core. I have other redeeming qualities. If I didn't my wife would have left. Cheating is terrible but dang near half the population has done it or will do it at some point in their life. It doesn't mean we should ostracize them forever. 

Regarding telling the betrayed spouse if you are friends of the cheater. This one is tough. I think its one of those things that most people would want to do, but when facing the choice of literally destroying someones world by divulging it I just can't do it. Especially when they seem to be so happily married. I guess I justify it by telling myself that they are better off not knowing.


----------



## lovelygirl

I have a friend who's been cheating on her current boyfriend for about a year. [I also made a thread about this last year].
She cheated on her ex (with her current BF) and now she's cheating on said current BF with her ex. 
How ironic is that???

The disappointing part is that I'm still friends with her. We've known each other for more than 7 years now. We're close friends. I do not like the way she's handled this whole situation but I'm not gonna dump her for that. 

Her current BF is someone I don't know personally and only met 1 or 2 times during their whole 3 year relationship so far. 

On the other hand, her ex (with whom she's cheating) is a very good friend of mine as well. When she cheated on him with her current BF, I didn't know it at the time and only got to know about it AFTER she got together with her now-BF. 
Had I known this at the time of speaking, I would have been in a VERY VERY bad situation. I'd feel myself caught in the middle because they're both my friends. 

But now, I don't feel I owe her current BF anything. I don't know him at all. Plus, friends stick for each other.
I must admit, I don't like how I'm being. I don't like myself knowing that she's cheating and I'm keeping it hidden. But I feel like I'd betray my friend if I told her current BF what she's doing. 

Believe me, I'm disappointed at myself for being part of this situation but It's easier said than done when it comes to revealing your friend's affair to someone you barely know.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Anon Pink said:


> I think you assume too much.
> 
> Fair enough.
> 
> Are you suggesting you hold everyone in your life accountable to the same standards you uphold? That is quite a burden to carry!
> 
> Nope.
> But I choose my friends based on the fact that we have similar values.
> And I think most people do.
> I have no friends who openly admit about being a rapist , pedophile ,pimp , cheater and so on.
> 
> I do not. Having been through much I've had to work through much and become a tad more self aware than many people I know. As a result, I see behavior chains that lead to errors in thinking; minimizing, deflecting, rationalizing... We all do it to a certain extent.
> 
> Yes , we all do it to some degree. That is what makes us human.
> 
> One of my good friends has a great deal of anxiety which leads her to be controlling in some respects and completely blind in other respects. As a result, she is raising a son who will likely never be able to stand on his own two feet in his professional or personal life. He is being coddled to deformity. I adore her but see how her flaws are creating a monster in her child. What to do? Absolutely nothing. If she were to ask my thoughts I would give them, but until then I simply avoid seeing her when she is with her son. She is also a beast to her husband, a very nice man. Those two aspects of her personhood are things I can't abide. But when it is just the two of us, she is a great deal of fun to be around. And she is a loving and loyal friend.
> 
> Right here is where we diverge.I see this as moral inertia.
> I believe that people come into our lives for a reason , it a something I have discovered along my path to greater self awareness.
> Failure to do something , creates a domino effect which affects others.
> I have NEVER seen an instance of moral inertia that resulted in a good outcome.
> Simply doing nothing when I could have, places a lot of responsibility on my shoulders.
> Human beings are all connected.
> 
> It is one of the dangers of being self aware. You see the mistakes other people are making but you must hold back because we are all on different places of self development.
> 
> There is no danger in being more self aware, just greater responsibility.
> Privilege presupposes responsibility.
> 
> And just to be certain, turning a blind eye to something a friend does is not encouragement.
> 
> Again, the moral inertia.
> Would you want your friend to turn a blind eye to something you were doing that was either harming you , your loved ones, especially your kids ,or other people?
> When we value things like friendship , we tend to want to protect it, agreed.
> But how much is a friendship really worth when we can't be open with each other for fear of misunderstanding and ostracism?
> Where we can't point out each other's faults and at least try to help each other on a path to greater self awareness?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Anon Pink said:


> And just to be certain, turning a blind eye to something a friend does is not encouragement.


I don't know that I can agree with this. If a person thinks you know, they may interpret your silence as acceptance and agreement.

Way back in the day, I had a friend who told racist jokes. While I did not laugh, I never said anything either. I tried to avoid those situations, but it was difficult to do. I came to realize that was not who I am, so I finally spoke up. 

The most painful part of that experience was when a different friend mentioned that he figure I thought it was okay due to my silence. I am ashamed to this day over that.

That does not mean that dealing with a friend's shortcomings is not a struggle. Support and friendship should not end automatically with one bad act. But I merely turning a blind eye makes me uneasy.


----------



## Anon Pink

Well CB at the risk of tooting my own horn...

I know a great deal about child development, behavior modification and human behavior in general. While there is no such thing as a perfect parent if there was, I think I would be close to that mark. 

As I look around I see all sorts of parenting skills, some good, some lacking, some atrociously lacking, some blindly following the patterns set by their own inept parents. Am I responsible for holding everyone around me to the same awareness and skill level I have developed over the years? 

One of the issues I had to solve pretty early after having children is to not tell other people how to raise their children. Unless I saw abuse, and I did, I keep my mouth shut about how to parent. What I can do is be a friend and encourage further self development. What I can and have done is to encourage my friend to seek appropriate treatment for her anxiety. 

I try hard not to judge others but to understand where they are on their path and acknowledge the growth that is happening.

Infidelity is a different arena because it can leave lasting harm, as child abuse can leave lasting harm. But child abuse involves a helpless and dependent child. Infidelity involves adults and adults can defend themselves.


----------



## Anon Pink

Tall Average Guy said:


> I don't know that I can agree with this. If a person thinks you know, they may interpret your silence as acceptance and agreement.
> 
> Way back in the day, I had a friend who told racist jokes. While I did not laugh, I never said anything either. I tried to avoid those situations, but it was difficult to do. I came to realize that was not who I am, so I finally spoke up.
> 
> The most painful part of that experience was when a different friend mentioned that he figure I thought it was okay due to my silence. I am ashamed to this day over that.


Racist jokes are not in the same league as infidelity. When I used to hear racist jokes I would speak up, cut them off, or pointedly walk away. "Oh come on really?" Said with an eye roll is usually enough to silence the idiot telling the joke.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Anon Pink said:


> Racist jokes are not in the same league as infidelity. When I used to hear racist jokes I would speak up, cut them off, or pointedly walk away. "Oh come on really?" Said with an eye roll is usually enough to silence the idiot telling the joke.


My point is that silence very often implies acceptance to that person and those around you.

According to your own words, you think it unacceptable enough to lay down the law at your girls weekend after at least one married women made out with a guy. Your subsequent posts seem to indicate that had you said nothing, more things like that would have occurred. I think that is likely because folks would have thought that you believed such behavior was acceptable.

Edit - I want to be clear that I get where you are coming from and struggle with this balance among friends and acquaintances. But I can't pretend that silence does not communicate something, even if it is not what we intend.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Anon Pink said:


> Well CB at the risk of tooting my own horn...
> 
> I know a great deal about child development, behavior modification and human behavior in general. While there is no such thing as a perfect parent if there was, I think I would be close to that mark.
> 
> As I look around I see all sorts of parenting skills, some good, some lacking, some atrociously lacking, some blindly following the patterns set by their own inept parents. Am I responsible for holding everyone around me to the same awareness and skill level I have developed over the years?
> 
> One of the issues I had to solve pretty early after having children is to not tell other people how to raise their children. Unless I saw abuse, and I did, I keep my mouth shut about how to parent. What I can do is be a friend and encourage further self development. What I can and have done is to encourage my friend to seek appropriate treatment for her anxiety.
> 
> I try hard not to judge others but to understand where they are on their path and acknowledge the growth that is happening.
> 
> Infidelity is a different arena because it can leave lasting harm, as child abuse can leave lasting harm. But child abuse involves a helpless and dependent child. Infidelity involves adults and adults can defend themselves.


Well we can both agree on not telling parents how to raise their kids.

But if I saw my neighbor's 14 yr old son hanging out with know criminals and drug pushers , certainly I can't turn a blind eye.

If I saw my friend's 13 yr old daughter hanging out in a club smoking and drinking with a man twice her age , I can't turn a blind eye.

I'm not telling them how to raise their kids, I'm simply alerting them that their kids might be heading for trouble.

This is what I would expect them to do for me ,if it were my kids / loved ones. And I have done it for other people in real life.
That's what make us friends.
We care deeply for each other.

I use the same principle for infidelity. If I saw my friends husband or wife involved in an extramarital affair I would simply alert them to what I saw, and they would have to do the rest.

If I saw my friend getting into an extramarital affair, I would talk to her first, find out what's happening , and try to help her. If she insists on her affair path, then I can no longer be friends with her, because we no longer share the same values.

And to be sure, adults can defend themselves , but sometimes kids are involved. Exposing an affair on time _can_ save a marriage...








Especially if you care about the couple and consider them as friends.


----------



## Faithful Wife

So if I feel porn is wrong, I should go and make sure all my friends are not watching any porn? And if they do, I should stop being their friend?

Whatever I decide is right is supposed to be what all my friends believe too, and it is my job to enforce these moral boundaries upon them, or kick them to the curb if they don't comply?

I pick my friends based on mutual caring and understanding. I don't expect them to always act just like me, nor do I get to decide what their moral code is. I have lived a colorful life and have colorful friends. At times I have distanced myself from certain friends while they worked out something in their lives. Sometimes a friend is involved in something you don't want to be a part of, yet they are still your friend. You can just not participate in that part of their lives.

All the friends I've had who had cheated are divorced now and not cheating anymore. I'm happy for them all, they are in a better place than previous years.


----------



## Anon Pink

Tall Average Guy said:


> My point is that silence very often implies acceptance to that person and those around you.
> 
> According to your own words, you think it unacceptable enough to lay down the law at your girls weekend after at least one married women made out with a guy. Your subsequent posts seem to indicate that had you said nothing, more things like that would have occurred. I think that is likely because folks would have thought that you believed such behavior was acceptable.
> 
> Edit - I want to be clear that I get where you are coming from and struggle with this balance among friends and acquaintances. But I can't pretend that silence does not communicate something, even if it is not what we intend.


Silence communicates a great deal, I think. When a joke is told the silence that follows communicates. When an admission is made, the silence communicates.

When dealing with very close dear personal friendships, and I assume this is similar with men, silence speaks loudly or softly depending on how it is employed.

But I am not silent, for in this particular instance silence would be too loud and convey judgment I don't intend. Instead I ask questions and I probe in an effort to encourage broader thinking.

In terms of my friend currently having an affair, I am personally all for it! It is keeping her sane in an untenable situation. I owe no allegiance to her husband. And even her children late teens early adults, encourage her to leave. She can not right now.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Anon Pink said:


> *In terms of my friend currently having an affair, I am personally all for it! It is keeping her sane in an untenable situation.*


So , are you saying that her affair is justified , and sometimes , an affair is justifiable?


----------



## jld

You're really brave to be so honest, AP.


----------



## Anon Pink

> But if I saw my neighbor's 14 yr old son hanging out with know criminals and drug pushers , certainly I can't turn a blind eye.
> 
> If I saw my friend's 13 yr old daughter hanging out in a club smoking and drinking with a man twice her age , I can't turn a blind eye.
> 
> I'm not telling them how to raise their kids, I'm simply alerting them that their kids might be heading for trouble.


A child is not an adult. Being witness to a child in a potentially dangerous situation absolutely calls for action. Being witness to an adult in a potentially dangerous situation does not call for action. I
A quick check to say, "you okay, need anything?" Would be appropriate, anything more is crossing the line.


----------



## Anon Pink

Caribbean Man said:


> So , are you saying that her affair is justified , and sometimes , an affair is justifiable?


I don't know that I would use the term justified. Perhaps if I could explain her sitch it might become more of a grey area for you as it is for me. But I cannot. So you're just going to have to trust me or judge me.


----------



## Anon Pink

jld said:


> You're really brave to be so honest, AP.


HAH! Stupid is more like it. Can't seem to step away from this firing squad here.


----------



## MSP

Anon Pink said:


> In terms of my friend currently having an affair, I am personally all for it! It is keeping her sane in an untenable situation. I owe no allegiance to her husband.


When it comes down to it, women will close ranks to protect one another, morality be damned.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Anon Pink said:


> I don't know that I would use the term justified. Perhaps if I could explain her sitch it might become more of a grey area for you as it is for me. But I cannot. So you're just going to have to trust me or judge me.


Ok.

Lets not use the word justified.

You said that you were all for it. [ her affair]

Are you saying that she was right to cheat on her husband because of her situation?

Are there situations where it is right to cheat?


----------



## Faithful Wife

For MSP - Yeah sure, just women do that, not men.


----------



## jld

Anon Pink said:


> HAH! Stupid is more like it. Can't seem to step away from this firing squad here.


You're not even close to stupid. 

There is a firing squad, though. I get the feeling a lot of men want to control women rather than seek to understand them.


----------



## Anon Pink

MSP said:


> When it comes down to it, women will close ranks to protect one another, morality be damned.


The same could be said of men and historically it would be a hell of a lot more accurate!


----------



## MSP

I've called friends on stuff multiple times. They've done the same for me. In almost every instance, we are still very good friends. Ironically, the main exceptions have been when I was too wild for some of them and they distanced themselves. I don't blame them whatsoever. They did the right thing and I respect them for it. I have standards for my friends and they have standards for me. I like and accept a lot of people. I'm not nearly as judgemental as I come across online.  However, I'm not willing to skirt around hard truths just to save someone's feelings about themselves. That is not being a friend, because a true friend is not just "there for you"; a true friend calls you on your crap and holds you accountable, so that you can grow and do the right thing.


----------



## Anon Pink

Caribbean Man said:


> Ok.
> 
> Lets not use the word justified.
> 
> You said that you were all for it. [ her affair]
> 
> Are you saying that she was right to cheat on her husband because of her situation?
> 
> Are there situations where it is right to cheat?


Right to cheat?

That's far too black and white a word. So i would have to go with no.


----------



## Anon Pink

MSP said:


> I've called friends on stuff multiple times. They've done the same for me. In almost every instance, we are still very good friends. Ironically, the main exceptions have been when I was too wild for some of them and they distanced themselves. I don't blame them whatsoever. They did the right thing and I respect them for it. I have standards for my friends and they have standards for me. I like and accept a lot of people. I'm not nearly as judgemental as I come across online.  However, I'm not willing to skirt around hard truths just to save someone's feelings about themselves. That is not being a friend, because a true friend is not just "there for you"; a true friend calls you on your crap and holds you accountable, so that you can grow and do the right thing.


You make excellent points, and you're assuming that however I deal with this issue regarding the friend currently cheating and the friends who cheated in the past is to ignore the cheating all together. That would not be accurate.


----------



## MSP

Anon Pink said:


> The same could be said of men and historically it would be a hell of a lot more accurate!


Really? I have not seen it with men. If you have examples, I'd be curious to see them. Don't get me wrong; men do bad things just as often.


----------



## jld

MSP said:


> Really? I have not seen it with men. If you have examples, I'd be curious to see them. Don't get me wrong; men do bad things just as often.


Come on! There are whole countries where cheating women get stoned. The men who do it are completely exonerated.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Anon Pink said:


> I go clubbing on my girls weekends, even dance with other men! Have yet to end up in some guys condo, car, lap or any other place inappropriate. I've even been silly drunk and it hasn't happened.
> 
> Why do men always think a drunk woman, or a woman out dancing is going to end up in bed with some man?


Because, for pick up artists, it's a numbers game. They don't care about the woman they get into bed, just that they are successful and she's the most attractive (he can get THAT NIGHT LOL)

The reason men always think a drunk woman, or a woman out dancing...or even better A DRUNK WOMAN OUT DANCING is going to end up in bed with some man is because...statistically, their usually the easiest to land. If women shopping for canteloupe were the easiest women to bed for ONS's, you'd see a bunch of guys dressed up with hair done and cologne on floating around the produce aisle.

Don't think individualistically, think statistically. Church, sports event, concert, drinking and dancing, shopping....of those listed, where do you think men will have the best luck finding a woman to take to bed...that same day/night.

But fortunately...you're an individual and you won't be a statistic ...much like if my wife went out dancing (she doesn't any longer...but I'd trust her to go as long as it didn't become a routine event that I was excluded from).


----------



## Anon Pink

In western culture, men have had open and public mistresses since some Spanish King brought it into fashion in the 1300's. In eastern cultures, men have had several wives, concubines, slaves...

You


----------



## MSP

Anon Pink said:


> You make excellent points, and you're assuming that however I deal with this issue regarding the friend currently cheating and the friends who cheated in the past is to ignore the cheating all together. That would not be accurate.


Thank you. 

But I'm not assuming that. The difference is not just calling them on it. It is how you do so and what consequences they have for their choices. As CB said, he has lost friends due to this and decided not to be friends of people whose morals he was not in favour of. I've had friends distance themselves from me and I have done the same thing a couple of times. It's not at all that I'm intolerant of mistakes. God knows, I'm the most flawed person around. But when someone is choosing a deliberately destructive path, I'm going to move away so I don't get caught in the fall out. 

Since cheating isn't illegal, let's use an example that has legal repercussions. Say you have a couple of friends who rob a bank and get away with it. They tell you everything. What would you do?


----------



## MSP

Anon Pink said:


> In western culture, men have had open and public mistresses since some Spanish King brought it into fashion in the 1300's. In eastern cultures, men have had several wives, concubines, slaves...
> 
> You


Yes, me what? 

Okay, if something is open, public, and in fashion, it's not really the same as sneaking around behind an unsuspecting spouse's back to cheat on them is it?


----------



## Anon Pink

MSP said:


> Thank you.
> 
> But I'm not assuming that. The difference is not just calling them on it. It is how you do so and what consequences they have for their choices. As CB said, he has lost friends due to this and decided not to be friends of people whose morals he was not in favour of. I've had friends distance themselves from me and I have done the same thing a couple of times. It's not at all that I'm intolerant of mistakes. God knows, I'm the most flawed person around. But when someone is choosing a deliberately destructive path, I'm going to move away so I don't get caught in the fall out.
> 
> Since cheating isn't illegal, let's use an example that has legal repercussions. Say you have a couple of friends who rob a bank and get away with it. They tell you everything. What would you do?


MSP, I enjoy bantering with you but I'm not going down this "what would you do" road in an attempt to draw me to the same conclusion you have. Robbing is illegal. Cheating is not. Abortion isn't illegal either but there are some who would distance themselves from a woman who had or is planning to have one.


----------



## over20

goyaboard1 said:


> Hi All.
> my wife is due to go on a girls only holiday soon. the closer it gets the more anxious i feel about it. I don't want to be controlling or over possesive but i am realy not that comfortable with the whole concept of a girls only holiday in the sun. Why is there a need to do this, I just don't get it.
> She also did this last year when we were going through a tough time. My mind played all sorts of tricks on me then and most likely will this time.
> 
> my wife has asked if I am ok with this. I say i am not thrilled about it but if it makes you happy then go for it .
> 
> 
> what do you guys think about the whole girls only holiday thing?




I don't agree with it but it might work for some couples. I did it once with a group of other married women. We went up to a cottage for a long weekend. The first two days were fun, then I started to tire of the gossip amongst the group and the husband bashing...it became uncomfortable. I really missed my husband by the third day. I will never do it again.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Anon Pink said:


> Right to cheat?
> 
> That's far too black and white a word. So i would have to go with no.


That's what has me confused.

You said that you were "all for it", when she cheated .
I assume you thought she was right to cheat, given her situation?


----------



## lovelygirl

MSP said:


> Since cheating isn't illegal, let's use an example that has legal repercussions. Say you have a couple of friends who rob a bank and get away with it. They tell you everything. What would you do?


Cheating and robbing a bank are not the same thing.
By cheating, you hurt only the cheated on partner.

Robbing is *an illegal act* which has impact on more than just one person. 
There are no excuses to robbing, but to cheating.... it depends on the situation. 
One could be in an abusive relationship but for several reasons they can't divorce. Cheating would be more tolerable in this case.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Anon Pink said:


> The same could be said of men and historically it would be a hell of a lot more accurate!


Completely agree, (not with the MORE part) but still.

Men and women both do this equally. I don't believe "protecting" your friends has ANYTHING to do with your gender. That's a human condition.

Some people are supportive of it unconditionally, some people up until it interferes with their morality and again, that level of morality fluctuates based on the individual.

Some people would report their mother for tax fraud, not many but still LOL.


----------



## Anon Pink

MSP said:


> When it comes down to it, women will close ranks to protect one another, morality be damned.





Anon Pink said:


> The same could be said of men and historically it would be a hell of a lot more accurate!





MSP said:


> Really? I have not seen it with men. If you have examples, I'd be curious to see them. Don't get me wrong; men do bad things just as often.





Anon Pink said:


> In western culture, men have had open and public mistresses since some Spanish King brought it into fashion in the 1300's. In eastern cultures, men have had several wives, concubines, slaves...
> 
> You





MSP said:


> Yes, me what?
> 
> Okay, if something is open, public, and in fashion, it's not really the same as sneaking around behind an unsuspecting spouse's back to cheat on them is it?


But historically, men closed ranks to protect their right to bed whomever they wished and the wife had NO RECOURSE!


----------



## jld

MSP said:


> Yes, me what?
> 
> Okay, if something is open, public, and in fashion, it's not really the same as sneaking around behind an unsuspecting spouse's back to cheat on them is it?


Oh, please. There was a terrible power differential going on.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

MSP said:


> Really? I have not seen it with men. If you have examples, I'd be curious to see them. Don't get me wrong; men do bad things just as often.


"Blue code of silence"
"Old boys club"
"Bros before hoes" 

You get the idea....those sayings etc. didn't come from thin air.


----------



## Anon Pink

Caribbean Man said:


> That's what has me confused.
> 
> You said that you were "all for it", when she cheated .
> I assume you thought she was right to cheat, given her situation?


I am all for her taking care of herself and if it involves this OM, then so be it. If this OM can provide her with the strength and courage to keep on keeping on, I'm all for it.

The same grey area that can be said about people who like to smoke a joint on the weekend to help them leave their work stress behind, or have a glass of wine to unwind. It's not the healthiest way to cope with stress but it is effective.

I don't wish to continue this further because I have things to do today.


----------



## MSP

Dad&Hubby said:


> "Blue code of silence"
> "Old boys club"
> "Bros before hoes"


Dude, you're breaking the code! 

FWIW, the old boys club has been more about rich old white men connecting with one another to shut _everyone_ else out.

The blue code of silence is about a profession. Since the profession allows both men and women in their ranks, it's not really male-exclusive. 

As for the last one, well, that's a recent one and it actually proves my point, because given no other encouragement, men will often put women first over their friends.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Lesson I've learnt from this thread;






There are times when it's ok to be unfaithful..

Depends on the situation.


----------



## MSP

lovelygirl said:


> By cheating, you hurt only the cheated on partner.


And kids, and parents, and provide a bad example to friends, etc.



lovelygirl said:


> There are no excuses to robbing, but to cheating.... it depends on the situation.


Really? Extreme poverty and oppression aren't reasons? Not that I'm advocating bank-robbing, but I think that there _can_ be pretty strong reasons to break the law in order to support yourself.



lovelygirl said:


> One could be in an abusive relationship but for several reasons they can't divorce. Cheating would be more tolerable in this case.


You're justifying cheating.


----------



## JCD

MSP said:


> Really? I have not seen it with men. If you have examples, I'd be curious to see them. Don't get me wrong; men do bad things just as often.


I was in a shop in the military. Had about 40 guys in it with a rotating cast of characters, so the number was MUCH higher. Very sociable guys.

Two of the men there very flagrantly had girlfriends as well as wives. Some of them were very long term girlfriends.

Another man had a wife. When he deployed, he didn't tell his wife he got paid for it. His wife saved money every day so when he was sent away, he could bring money with him. When she found out years later, she was LIVID! He worked in that shop for at least 20 years.

We met their wives during Family Day. And yet it took YEARS for that information to trickle to their wives. (Some of this stuff I knew...some I found out about later)

Why do you think that is?

'Man Code' is the current rationalization, IIRC.

And ladies, there were a number of women in the shop as well. None of them told either.

So be a bit circumspect in playing the gender card. It's a 'human' card.

And I know just as many manipulative and controlling women as I do men. They just use different, passive aggressive tools to do it. Shame and religion for one where oddly enough, the Word of God seemed to gel pretty darned seamlessly with whatever that particular woman had as her personal morality. 

So let's not start this showdown AGAIN, jld, hmm?


----------



## MSP

Anon Pink said:


> MSP, I enjoy bantering with you but I'm not going down this "what would you do" road in an attempt to draw me to the same conclusion you have. Robbing is illegal. Cheating is not.












I'm not trying to trick you. Here, let me state my case openly: If someone _only_ speaks out when there is a legal line that's crossed, rather than a moral one, then that person only acts in order to protect themselves and morals have nothing to do with it.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Lets not go down that gender road because it's just a diversion.

The real question is ,

Is it really acceptable to cheat sometimes, depending on the situation?


----------



## MSP

Caribbean Man said:


> Is it really acceptable to cheat sometimes, depending on the situation?


Acceptable? No, I don't think so. Understandable? Of course!


----------



## Caribbean Man

MSP said:


> I'm not trying to trick you. *Here, let me state my case openly: If someone only speaks out when there is a legal line that's crossed, rather than a moral one, then that person only acts in order to protect themselves and morals have nothing to do with it.*


:iagree:

Exactly.


----------



## JCD

MSP said:


> Yes, me what?
> 
> Okay, if something is open, public, and in fashion, it's not really the same as sneaking around behind an unsuspecting spouse's back to cheat on them is it?


Ah...you think the wives and children of the first wives were okay with this? Or were they put in a situation of 'lump it or get thee to an abbey?"

Peter the Great FORCED his wife to become a nun. Henry the VIII tried the same thing with Catherine of Aragorn.

So...let me ask you, is publically HAMMERING the wife into compliance to bite her tongue and accept your publically screwing around and humiliating her better or worse than sneaking around behind her back?

Since we are trying moral calculus and all.

(and to give one to the guys, when a junior wife got one over on the primary wife in China and got in power, she cut off the first wife's nose, hands and feet and threw her into a pig sty. But I'm sure she had REASONS...you know...since it was a woman )


----------



## jld

JCD said:


> So let's not start this showdown AGAIN, jld, hmm?


Well, I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean. But certainly men have had more power throughout the ages than women.

Look at this thread, even. AP defending herself, with the help of FW, against how many men trying to push her into a corner?


----------



## over20

jld said:


> You're not even close to stupid.
> 
> There is a firing squad, though. I get the feeling a lot of men want to control women rather than seek to understand them.


With all due respect jld, most men in present times are very, very supportive of their women in their life.They want them to be happy. I feel that a lot of men humble themselves to allow their wife to aspire and reach great things rather than suppress and control.


----------



## JCD

jld said:


> Oh, please. There was a terrible power differential going on.


And when the few women were able to gain their share of power, they behaved similarly to men. See Bloody Mary, Empress Wu, Mary Queen of Scots, Theodora, Isabella, Elizabeth Bathory, and Catherine the Great, who murdered her husband...or at least ordered it.

Let's cut this sort of BS, okay? Stay on topic.


----------



## JCD

Caribbean Man said:


> Lesson I've learnt from this thread;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are times when *cheating may be the LESSER of two evils*
> 
> Depends on the situation.


Here, I fixed that for you.


----------



## MSP

JCD said:


> Ah...you think the wives and children of the first wives were okay with this? Or were they put in a situation of 'lump it or get thee to an abbey?"
> 
> Peter the Great FORCED his wife to become a nun. Henry the VIII tried the same thing with Catherine of Aragorn.


How is this an example of men closing ranks to hide their actions from women? That's what I asked for. But I keep getting, "Men are bad, because they did bad things to women!" replies. I already acknowledged that men do bad things just as often.


----------



## JCD

MSP said:


> How is this an example of men closing ranks to hide their actions from women? That's what I asked for. But I keep getting, "Men are bad, because they did bad things to women!" replies. I already acknowledged that men do bad things just as often.


No. You said publically having a mistress was 'better' than sneaking around behind the wife's back and suggested that if it was culturally acceptable, it was also moral.

I take exception to those ideas.

Men HAVE historically closed ranks to cut women out of power. Not always, and recently, men have been quite open to sharing power (not that some women have gotten that memo...)

But I gave a modern day example of men having a code of silence about their 'play time'.

I note you didn't respond to THAT. And if I call AP or jld out on a sloppy or unjustified idea, I'll do the same to you. isn't that what friends do?


----------



## Caribbean Man

JCD said:


> Here, I fixed that for you.


Well we'll have to differ.

I don't believe cheating is ever acceptable.
That's why it's called, _cheating._

IMO, it's like professional athletes and steroids.
I have absolutely nothing against steroids. However , as long as there remains a ban against steroids in professional sports, athletes who use them are _cheating _ because they AGREED to the rules of the game. No steroids being one of them.

As long as one partner gets involved in an extramarital affair , it's cheating.


----------



## JCD

jld said:


> Well, I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean. But certainly men have had more power throughout the ages than women.
> 
> Look at this thread, even. AP defending herself, with the help of FW, against how many men trying to push her into a corner?


And you are deliberately ignoring TallDavid, ReformedHubby, and myself who are all supporting her to fit into your gender based narrative of 'men bad and controlling, women...evolved and fighting for their freedom like plucky little Ewoks.'


----------



## bandit.45

over20 said:


> With all due respect jld, most men in present times are very, very supportive of their women in their life.They want them to be happy. I feel that a lot of men humble themselves to allow their wife to aspire and reach great things rather than suppress and control.


Agreed. Most men who love their wives do want them to reach great heights and goals...education, promotions, dreams and aspirations....

But a 40 year old SAHM on a GNO, getting sh!tfaced and twerking on a 24 y.o. college boy's groin at a dance club is aspiring to do great things? :scratchhead:


----------



## JCD

Caribbean Man said:


> Well we'll have to differ.
> 
> I don't believe cheating is ever acceptable.
> That's why it's called, _cheating._
> 
> IMO, it's like professional athletes and steroids.
> I have absolutely nothing against steroids. However , as long as there remains a ban against steroids in professional sports, athletes who use them are _cheating._
> 
> As long as one partner gets involved in an extramarital affair , it's cheating.


Cheating is an awful thing that a spouse can do to another.

It is not the ONLY awful thing that a spouse can do to another. But it is certainly more clear cut than emotional abuse, for example and being a controlling a-hole (yes, some men are like that...so are some women)

So 'justified' isn't a word I would use. Sympathetic to someone's plight is probably closer.

But yeah, in most cases, there ARE other options. The person just doesn't want to pay the price. Sometimes the price is too bloody high! (see 50's divorce)


----------



## ReformedHubby

MSP said:


> Really? I have not seen it with men. If you have examples, I'd be curious to see them. Don't get me wrong; men do bad things just as often.


Just my opinion but I always assumed it was man law/code to not say anything if your friend is cheating. If my wife were to call all of my guy friends right this moment and ask them if I hung out with them last night. Every single one of them would think I was in trouble and say "yes" even if it wasn't true.

In general pretty much all of the men I grew up around thought cheating was okay as long as you didn't put the needs of the other woman above your wife and kids.


----------



## JCD

Caribbean Man said:


> Well we'll have to differ.
> 
> I don't believe cheating is ever acceptable.
> That's why it's called, _cheating._
> 
> IMO, it's like professional athletes and steroids.
> I have absolutely nothing against steroids. However , as long as there remains a ban against steroids in professional sports, athletes who use them are _cheating _ because they AGREED to the rules of the game. No steroids being one of them.
> 
> As long as one partner gets involved in an extramarital affair , it's cheating.


It's okay. I still love you, man.


----------



## JCD

MSP said:


> Acceptable? No, I don't think so. Understandable? Of course!


:iagree:


----------



## DoF

Caribbean Man said:


> Well we'll have to differ.
> 
> I don't believe cheating is ever acceptable.
> That's why it's called, _cheating._
> 
> IMO, it's like professional athletes and steroids.
> I have absolutely nothing against steroids. However , as long as there remains a ban against steroids in professional sports, athletes who use them are _cheating _ because they AGREED to the rules of the game. No steroids being one of them.
> 
> As long as one partner gets involved in an extramarital affair , it's cheating.


Actually, here is where I have a problem. 

Steroids are used in many sports. Most sports authorities have a list of "ok drugs" and "not ok" drugs.

Cycling is probably the best example. Anyone that you might know that's in that sport will tell you that drug usage is a MUST. You will simply not survive the competition without it.

So my question is " Who the F are they to decide what's ok and what's not or what is ok to take and what's not ok".

What we end up with is bunch of unrealistic results/enterntainment. You have bunch of athletes taking drugs to help performance.

Is that REALITY? Are sports reality in that case? 

Then there are sports like football when they have "rules" but we all know everyone and their mother is on steroids and it's not REALLY enforced.

It's all silly and doesn't make any sense. 

Cut it ALL off and make it "based on ability given to you by nature" or let them do whatever the hell they want to improve those abilities.

READ: either "take whatever you want" or NOTHING AT ALL.

I won't even get into the effects on health it has on athletes....heck being a pro is bad enough on your body.

Thus > I don't recommend my sons to do sports beyond college level (get that scholarship boy!!!). After that, I simply don't want them to be some kind of a guinea pig or end up disabled like SO many athletes do.


----------



## MSP

JCD said:


> No. You said publically having a mistress was 'better' than sneaking around behind the wife's back and suggested that if it was culturally acceptable, it was also moral.


No, I didn't say having a mistress openly is more moral. I said it wasn't a true comparison. I refuse to get into yet another TAM version of _The Oppressive Patriarchy™_. 



JCD said:


> I gave a modern day example of men having a code of silence about their 'play time'.
> 
> I note you didn't respond to THAT.


I'm off and on the computer today. I didn't ignore it. A single anecdote was not quite what I was looking for, but it does support your case.



ReformedHubby said:


> Just my opinion but I always assumed it was man law/code to not say anything if your friend is cheating. If my wife were to call all of my guy friends right this moment and ask them if I hung out with them last night. Every single one of them would think I was in trouble and say "yes" even if it wasn't true.
> 
> In general pretty much all of the men I grew up around thought cheating was okay as long as you didn't put the needs of the other woman above your wife and kids.


Fair enough. I guess my own experiences have differed, then. I have obviously hung out with quite a different group of guys.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

MSP said:


> Dude, you're breaking the code!
> 
> FWIW, the old boys club has been more about rich old white men connecting with one another to shut _everyone_ else out.
> 
> The blue code of silence is about a profession. Since the profession allows both men and women in their ranks, it's not really male-exclusive.
> 
> As for the last one, well, that's a recent one and it actually proves my point, because given no other encouragement, men will often put women first over their friends.


Yes, your assessment is accurate but those "groups" also serve to self protect.

The Old Boys Club is less to do with wealth as it is to do with exclusion of everyone except for white men. I work in a very "old boys club" industry and it gets disheartening sometimes, at least with the older men involved. Bring whiskey on sales calls, taking clients to strip clubs and getting them "a woman", etc. were all part of the environment (for SOME). It was understood noone says anything etc. My boss wanted to bring me on one of these calls and I told him, I can't go if you want me to be part of something like that. He respected my decision but still. I can't understand these guys who will literally hire a prostitute for a guy, and then the next night have an expensive dinner with the wives. 

The blue code of silence is gender neutral...but lets be honest, it started when police officers were 95% men.

We can agree to disagree though, I've known plenty of guys who go out without their wives/gf's who trawl for women and then keep it hush hush with their SO. Just as much as women. Men are also as likely or more so to do the ostrich routine. They see someone behaving poorly and they put their head in the sand.

Not all, but it does happen.



MSP said:


> I'm not trying to trick you. Here, let me state my case openly: *If someone only speaks out when there is a legal line that's crossed, rather than a moral one, then that person only acts in order to protect themselves and morals have nothing to do with it.*


I 100% agree with you. Truer words have not been spoken.


----------



## Caribbean Man

ReformedHubby said:


> Just my opinion but I always assumed it was man law/code to not say anything if your friend is cheating. If my wife were to call all of my guy friends right this moment and ask them if I hung out with them last night. Every single one of them would think I was in trouble and say "yes" even if it wasn't true.
> 
> *In general pretty much all of the men I grew up around thought cheating was okay as long as you didn't put the needs of the other woman above your wife and kids*.


Yes.
That doesn't make it right though, especially if we're talking openness and transparency in a marriage.

When I got married, I became a man,and I put away that sort of childish, entitled rubbish.

If one of my friends husband or wife asked me if we hung out last evening I would tell them the truth and go into details such as timelines and so forth.

And I expect them to do the same for me if I ever was in such a situation.


----------



## Caribbean Man

JCD said:


> It's okay. I still love you, man.


Same back at you...
Haha!


----------



## JCD

MSP said:


> No, I didn't say having a mistress openly is more moral. I said it wasn't a true comparison. I refuse to get into yet another TAM version of _The Oppressive Patriarchy™_.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm off and on the computer today. I didn't ignore it. A single anecdote was not quite what I was looking for, but it does support your case.
> 
> 
> 
> Fair enough. I guess my own experiences have differed, then. I have obviously hung out with quite a different group of guys.


You will note I am trying to squelch that little threadjack myself.

I am unsure of your age, but up until maybe the 80's, it was an unwritten rule that you didn't really discuss what another man did. Watch Mad Men. And if you 'slipped up' by accident and ruined his alibi, it was expected that you APOLOGIZE TO THE GUY CHEATING for endangering his marriage!

This is not to say you LIKED what he did. It is not to say you didn't tell him what a POS he was. You just didn't mess with his marriage. And if he got caught, well, you'd just nod your head as a fact that karma happened.

It was one part cowardice, one part male solidarity and probably at least one part 'I don't know what your wife is REALLY like at home'.

Did EVERYONE follow that code? No. Most of them did.


----------



## Caribbean Man

JCD said:


> Cheating is an awful thing that a spouse can do to another.
> 
> It is not the ONLY awful thing that a spouse can do to another. But it is certainly more clear cut than emotional abuse, for example and being a controlling a-hole (yes, some men are like that...so are some women)
> 
> So 'justified' isn't a word I would use. Sympathetic to someone's plight is probably closer.
> 
> *But yeah, in most cases, there ARE other options. The person just doesn't want to pay the price. Sometimes the price is too bloody high! *(see 50's divorce)


Yes
We all choose our paths.

Some people think they're entitled to things they are not.

And then there's ;
" _Welcome To Talk About Marriage._."


----------



## JCD

Caribbean Man said:


> Yes
> We all choose our paths.
> 
> Some people think they're entitled to things they are not.
> 
> And then there's ;
> " _Welcome To Talk About Marriage._."


So...hypothetical.

You are a man. You have two kids you adore. They ONLY behave with you and look at you like the sun rises and falls at your smile. 

You have a business you built up with your two hands after your marriage, brick by brick employing a dozen people who are, while not friends, close acquaintances.

You have a pair of moralizing parents who feel there is NEVER EVER a reason to divorce a spouse. They put up with their fair share of nonsense over the course of their marriage and 'you can toe the line too', bucko!

You have a house which you spent the last ten years building into a home, one twice done project at a time 

And you have a spousal unit.  One who DOES care if you live or die, but only because you have a sizable life insurance policy. Whose contribution to your sex life is 'hallway f**king'. Who is now so emotionally distant that she makes Jennifer Tilly in "Liar Liar" look like a devoted mom.

She is abusive, cold and emasculating.

So...do you 'pay the price'? Lose the business? Lose your family? Lose the house? Lose the kids who will most certainly do worse than under your care?

Or do you find a way to live with your circumstance?

There was a reason alcoholism was so rampant in the 50's and it wasn't nuclear war...

As MSP said, it isn't 'right' but it is understandable.


----------



## Caribbean Man

JCD said:


> So...hypothetical.
> 
> You are a man. You have two kids you adore. They ONLY behave with you and look at you like the sun rises and falls at your smile.
> 
> You have a business you built up with your two hands after your marriage, brick by brick employing a dozen people who are, while not friends, close acquaintances.
> 
> You have a pair of moralizing parents who feel there is NEVER EVER a reason to divorce a spouse. They put up with their fair share of nonsense over the course of their marriage and 'you can toe the line too', bucko!
> 
> You have a house which you spent the last ten years building into a home, one twice done project at a time
> 
> And you have a spousal unit.  One who DOES care if you live or die, but only because you have a sizable life insurance policy. Whose contribution to your sex life is 'hallway f**king'. Who is now so emotionally distant that she makes Jennifer Tilly in "Liar Liar" look like a devoted mom.
> 
> She is abusive, cold and emasculating.
> 
> So...do you 'pay the price'? Lose the business? Lose your family? Lose the house? Lose the kids who will most certainly do worse than under your care?
> 
> Or do you find a way to live with your circumstance?
> 
> There was a reason alcoholism was so rampant in the 50's and it wasn't nuclear war...
> 
> As MSP said, it isn't 'right' but it is understandable.


I'm not disagreeing with you.

In fact I know of real life situations where stuff like that happened.
I know of a few women right here on TAM too who have never posted their situations but similar situations happened to them.

They all did the right thing, and they are better off for it today.

Exactly how does cheating in such a situation help anyone?

The other woman/ man can't have you.

You can't have them either because you *can't* leave.

So how exactly is that helping?:scratchhead:

An affair only _creates_ more problems in that situation, it solves nothing.


----------



## JCD

Caribbean Man said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you.
> 
> In fact I know of real life situations where stuff like that happened.
> I know of a few women right here on TAM too who have never posted their situations but who have shared it with me and a couple others close to them...
> 
> They all did the right thing, and they are better off for it today.
> 
> Exactly how does cheating in such a situation help anyone?
> 
> The other woman/ man can't have you.
> 
> You can't have them either because you *can't* leave.
> 
> So how exactly is that helping?:scratchhead:


It is finding what comfort you can in a bad situation.

Don't get me wrong: there are a lot of selfish cheaters out there. There are cheaters who magnify every slight done to them just so they can excuse their behavior.

But there are also people in rotten loveless circumstances and having a few crumbs of love is better than nothing, at least in their eyes.

IF they get caught, I doubt they continue to feel that way though. Loss of self respect is also pretty grueling.


----------



## Caribbean Man

JCD said:


> *Don't get me wrong: there are a lot of selfish cheaters out there. There are cheaters who magnify every slight done to them just so they can excuse their behavior.*


And that's my point.

Everyone justifies their own bad behaviors and there are a lot of narcissistic, entitled , bull sh!tters out there whose only motive in life is to full their OWN selfish wants and needs.

Falling into an affair doesn't make someone a bad person or lesser of a person.

But refusing to take responsibility for their actions and further justifying it means that something is terribly off in their moral compass.
Because if _they_ were the betrayed spouse, they would be in full victim mode, raising hell ,ranting and raving , looking for sympathy.


----------



## lovelygirl

Caribbean Man said:


> Is it really acceptable to cheat sometimes, depending on the situation?


*
Yes!*

While in an arranged marriage, married at a very young age, you're being physically/mentally abused by your husband whom you married against your will, you live in a 3rd world country...where if divorced, you'll be seen as a wh*re for the rest of your life!

ETA: You could be seen as a bigger wh*re if your cheating comes out...but at least you got to have some fun!


----------



## JCD

Caribbean Man said:


> And that's my point.
> 
> Everyone justifies their own bad behaviors and there are a lot of narcissistic, entitled , bull sh!tters out there whose only motive in life is to full their OWN selfish wants and needs.
> 
> Falling into an affair doesn't make someone a bad person or lesser of a person.
> 
> But refusing to take responsibility for their actions and further justifying it means that something is terribly off in their moral compass.
> Because if _they_ were the betrayed spouse, they would be in full victim mode, raising hell ,ranting and raving , looking for sympathy.



Here's the deal: a cheater, with the lovey dovey eyes and the heart full of blue birds is NOT a reliable indicator of what is being done or happening to them inside their marriage. Easily granted. Fully biased and subjective.

BUT...we aren't talking about some cheater. We are talking about AP. While she has her ways, she's generally been able to admit she is wrong, see other points of view, and is at least moderately sensible.

She says her friend has a horribly raw deal. She is likely FAR more objective than her friend is. Look at how she describes some of her other friends? Not exactly afraid to criticize.

So, this line of argument is undercut.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Caribbean Man said:


> Yes.
> That doesn't make it right though, especially if we're talking openness and transparency in a marriage.
> 
> When I got married, I became a man,and I put away that sort of childish, entitled rubbish.
> 
> If one of my friends husband or wife asked me if we hung out last evening I would tell them the truth and go into details such as timelines and so forth.
> 
> And I expect them to do the same for me if I ever was in such a situation.


Just to be clear I don't think cheating is right. I just don't think I need to write off someone because they are a cheater. That would be so hypocritical of me.

None of my friend's wives know about my past (heck most of my friends don't). I made some mistakes but even at my worst it wasn't like I was out there trying to convince other people to cheat too. That's why I don't get why having a cheater as a friend is viewed as bad. Especially if its someone you've known for most of your life. You don't approve of the situation, but you know that there is more to them than their current behavior.


----------



## Caribbean Man

ReformedHubby said:


> Just to be clear I don't think cheating is right. I just don't think I need to write off someone because they are a cheater. That would be so hypocritical of me.
> 
> None of my friend's wives know about my past (heck most of my friends don't). I made some mistakes but even at my worst it wasn't like I was out there trying to convince other people to cheat too. That's why I don't get why having a cheater as a friend is viewed as bad. Especially if its someone you've known for most of your life. * You don't approve of the situation, but you know that there is more to them than their current behavior.*


The same rationale could be used for a friend who beats his wife anytime he gets drunk.
He's a good man when he gets sober, and there's so much more to him than how he gets whenever he drinks.

I choose my friends based on shared values.

For me, a man who continuously cheats on his wife without remorse , a man who beats a woman under any condition , men who look at under aged girls in a sexual manner are among the type of men I wouldn't want as friends.

There might be much more to them, and I understand that, but I choose to exercise my right no to embrace them as friends.


----------



## MSP

lovelygirl said:


> *
> Yes!*
> 
> While in an arranged marriage, married at a very young age, you're being physically/mentally abused by your husband whom you married against your will, you live in a 3rd world country...where if divorced, you'll be seen as a wh*re for the rest of your life!


Those are all categories where the women gets to cheat and it's okay by you. Interesting. What if you have a husband with a nagging wife who doesn't want to have sex with him. Is it acceptable if he cheats?


----------



## Anon Pink

bandit.45 said:


> Agreed. Most men *who love their wives do want them to reach great heights and goals...education, promotions, dreams and aspirations....*
> 
> But a 40 year old SAHM on a GNO, getting sh!tfaced and twerking on a 24 y.o. college boy's groin at a dance club is aspiring to do great things? :scratchhead:


And then there are the men who demand things, insult, demean, control, shout, scream, intimidate, threaten and then play the "you owe me" card. The men who don't want their wives going back to school, the men who don't want their wives to start a career after years of being a SAHM, the men who control the wives by controlling the kids and what they can do. 

And bandit, the only women I've seen twerking in clubs have been to young 20's and 30's women. Us 50 year old need to protect our spines!


----------



## MSP

JCD said:


> I am unsure of your age, but up until maybe the 80's, it was an unwritten rule that you didn't really discuss what another man did. Watch Mad Men. And if you 'slipped up' by accident and ruined his alibi, it was expected that you APOLOGIZE TO THE GUY CHEATING for endangering his marriage!
> 
> This is not to say you LIKED what he did. It is not to say you didn't tell him what a POS he was. You just didn't mess with his marriage. And if he got caught, well, you'd just nod your head as a fact that karma happened.
> 
> It was one part cowardice, one part male solidarity and probably at least one part 'I don't know what your wife is REALLY like at home'.
> 
> Did EVERYONE follow that code? No. Most of them did.


Interesting.

I am 40 years old. I grew up outside of North America and I haven't watched TV since 1990 and never watched US TV shows before that. But I have travelled and lived in multiple countries, have friends all over the world, and have been involved in counselling off and on (it's pro bono, not my job) for 20 years. I know lots of people and have seen tons and tons of relationships. I seem to be someone with whom others feel comfortable with confiding in and I have heard a lot of stories. 

Actually, now that you mention it, I remember when I was in my first real job after school, a trades job, there were a bunch of really morally loose guys. They'd mess around every weekend, whether they had partners or not, and then relive their sexcapades during the working week. They've been the exception and it was only a handful of guys, but still . . .

BTW, they were not my friends and I never hung out with them after work.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Caribbean Man said:


> The same rationale could be used for a friend who beats his wife anytime he gets drunk.
> He's a good man when he gets sober, and there's so much more to him than how he gets whenever he drinks.
> 
> I choose my friends based on shared values.
> 
> For me, a man who continuously cheats on his wife without remorse , a man who beats a woman under any condition , men who look at under aged girls in a sexual manner are among the type of men I wouldn't want as friends.
> 
> There might be much more to them, and I understand that, but I choose to exercise my right no to embrace them as friends.


I'm not trying to make light of your example but why not put serial killers as friends on the list too? It is true the rationale could be used for anything but your examples are more extreme than cheating in my opinion. Pedophilia and spousal abusers are some of the worst people in our society. 

I don't put _all_ cheaters on the same level. I would take each situation individually. Of course this really isn't an issue because neither of us will be picking each other's friends. This might be the first topic in which my opinion varied so much from yours.


----------



## Caribbean Man

ReformedHubby said:


> I'm not trying to make light of your example but why not put serial killers as friends on the list too? It is true the rationale could be used for anything but your examples are more extreme than cheating in my opinion. Pedophilia and spousal abusers are some of the worst people in our society.
> 
> I don't put _all_ cheaters on the same level. I would take each situation individually. Of course this really isn't an issue because neither of us will be picking each other's friends. This might be the first topic in which my opinion varied so much from yours.


This thread reminds me of another similar one I participated in last year.

Here is it;

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/154049-my-wife-walked-out.html

Have a good look at it, see if there are any similarities between the excuses this guy is making for cheating on his wife _before_ they were married with a stripper , and what some here are saying are here.

Interestingly enough. his brothers , fathers and family knew , and even encouraged him, but when his wife found out years later, she packed up and left his sorry a$$.

Funny thing about that OP , is that he didn't see anything wrong with his actions and actually thought his wife was at fault because his family supported him.


----------



## Anon Pink

over20 said:


> With all due respect jld, most men in present times are very, very supportive of their women in their life.They want them to be happy. I feel that a lot of men humble themselves to allow their wife to aspire and reach great things rather than suppress and control.


Most men do want their wives to be happy, but a lot of men, certainly not all, want their wives to be happy within the constraints they define.

I want you to be happy... Working full time for pay and then doing the bulk of the child care and home care. I want you to be happy doing that!

I want you to be happy... With what little affection I give to you.

I want you to be happy... When I use passive aggressive techniques to control you and your movements.

I want you to be happy.... When my work keeps me so busy I have no time or energy to be your partner.

I want you to be happy... When I would rather watch sports on TV then take you out dancing.

I want you to happy... When I never say I love you.

Yup, most men want their wives to be happy. So says the Hall Monitor!


----------



## Caribbean Man

MSP said:


> Those are all categories where the women gets to cheat and it's okay by you. Interesting. What if you have a husband with a nagging wife who doesn't want to have sex with him. Is it acceptable if he cheats?


And that's the crux of the matter.
whenever we begin to say that cheating is justifiable in some situations , then it must be applied to both men and women.

Then comes the scary part.

Those who are saying yes it is justifiable, begin to realize how it would feel if _they_ were the betrayed spouse, and their partner was the one doing the cheating...


----------



## JCD

Caribbean Man said:


> This thread reminds me of another similar one I participated in some time ago.
> 
> Here is it;
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/154049-my-wife-walked-out.html
> 
> Have a good look at it, see if there are any similarities between the excuses this guy is making for cheating on his wife _before_ they were married with a stripper , and what some here are saying are here.
> 
> Interestingly enough. his brothers , fathers and family knew , and even encouraged him, but when his wife found out years later, she packed up and left his sorry a$$.
> 
> Funny thing about that OP , is that he didn't see anything wrong with his actions and actually thought his wife was at fault because his family supported him.


What the hell does this have to do with anything?

We are not talking about 'cheaters excuses'. We are saying that some situations need nuance. This is not 'cheater speak' for 'excuses'.

You want to hew to a very cut and dried morality. Okay. Killing is wrong. Someone is attacking your wife. Do you continue to believe killing is wrong, or do you say 'while killing IS wrong, I think it is worse to lose my wife'?

After all, you are used to losing friends to your moral stance. What is one more? It's more important than people.

This isn't a matter of some guy being raised in a crappy family who have no moral center.

This is about someone being in an objectively crappy marriage. The kind people look at and shake their heads about. Where if you told them 'Gail is cheating on Frank' you won't get a 'OMG!', you'll get a 'yeah...well...' with tones of 'it was just a matter of time seeing as how he treats her' No one says she's right...but everyone seems to understand.

If OUTSIDERS see your marriage as rotten, it's probably rotten.


----------



## JCD

Anon Pink said:


> Most men do want their wives to be happy, but a lot of men, certainly not all, want their wives to be happy within the constraints they define.
> 
> I want you to be happy... Working full time for pay and then doing the bulk of the child care and home care. I want you to be happy doing that!
> 
> I want you to be happy... With what little affection I give to you.
> 
> I want you to be happy... When I use passive aggressive techniques to control you and your movements.
> 
> I want you to be happy.... When my work keeps me so busy I have no time or energy to be your partner.
> 
> I want you to be happy... When I would rather watch sports on TV then take you out dancing.
> 
> I want you to happy... When I never say I love you.
> 
> Yup, most men want their wives to be happy. So says the Hall Monitor!


Oooh!

I wanna play!

I want you to be happy...accepting exactly as much sex as I want to dole out.

I want you to be happy...doing all the chores *I* think are important.

I want you to be happy...with me controlling the social schedule to MY benefit and not yours

I want you to be happy...with me disapproving of your friends and trying to break you up.

I want you to be happy...when I use 'controlling and patriarchal' as a 'get out of jail free' card whenever you won't let me get my way.

I want you to be happy...when I use 'sensitive' and 'caring' to morally blackmail into any little thing I want.

I want you to be happy...ministering to my every outrageous emotional need which I excuse as 'hormones', hence uncontrollable.

I want you to be happy...with me being any shape or wearing anything *I* want. See 'controlling'

I want you to be happy...trying to figure out EXACTLY what I need and want because I can't give you a straight answer to anything. YOU SHOULD KNOW!

I want you to be happy...when I control the budget and the money you earn, you really don't have any access to. Because I have REAL priorities.

I want you to be happy...when I use the word 'the family needs' to mask 'my needs'.

I want you to be happy when I say 'when mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy' to threaten you into obedience in a passive aggressive way.

Now, can we PLEASE drop this gender bashing? PLEASE?!?


----------



## Anon Pink

JCD said:


> What the hell does this have to do with anything?
> 
> We are not talking about 'cheaters excuses'. We are saying that some situations need nuance. This is not 'cheater speak' for 'excuses'.
> 
> You want to hew to a very cut and dried morality. Okay. Killing is wrong. Someone is attacking your wife. Do you continue to believe killing is wrong, or do you say 'while killing IS wrong, I think it is worse to lose my wife'?
> 
> After all, you are used to losing friends to your moral stance. What is one more? It's more important than people.
> 
> This isn't a matter of some guy being raised in a crappy family who have no moral center.
> 
> This is about someone being in an objectively crappy marriage. The kind people look at and shake their heads about. Where if you told them 'Gail is cheating on Frank' you won't get a 'OMG!', you'll get a 'yeah...well...' with tones of 'it was just a matter of time seeing as how he treats her' No one says she's right...but everyone seems to understand.
> 
> If OUTSIDERS see your marriage as rotten, it's probably rotten.


Thank you! Very well put!


----------



## Caribbean Man

JCD said:


> What the hell does this have to do with anything?
> 
> We are not talking about 'cheaters excuses'. We are saying that some situations need nuance. This is not 'cheater speak' for 'excuses'.
> 
> You want to hew to a very cut and dried morality. Okay. Killing is wrong. Someone is attacking your wife. Do you continue to believe killing is wrong, or do you say 'while killing IS wrong, I think it is worse to lose my wife'?
> 
> After all, you are used to losing friends to your moral stance. What is one more? It's more important than people.
> 
> This isn't a matter of some guy being raised in a crappy family who have no moral center.
> 
> This is about someone being in an objectively crappy marriage. The kind people look at and shake their heads about. Where if you told them 'Gail is cheating on Frank' you won't get a 'OMG!', you'll get a 'yeah...well...' with tones of 'it was just a matter of time seeing as how he treats her' No one says she's right...but everyone seems to understand.
> 
> If OUTSIDERS see your marriage as rotten, it's probably rotten.


And how does cheating help a crappy marriage?

How does deciding to have an affair help the problem or even the person?

It doesn't.

So then the infidelity is just an excuse. to have some fun in an otherwise unhappy marriage.

Would you say the majority of people who cheated were in crappy marriages?


----------



## MSP

lovelygirl said:


> *
> Yes!*
> 
> While in an arranged marriage, married at a very young age, you're being physically/mentally abused by your husband whom you married against your will, you live in a 3rd world country...where if divorced, you'll be seen as a wh*re for the rest of your life!


I just reread this and I think I misunderstood it the first time around. You're saying that all of these things happen to the one person, rather than them being separate cases. Is that right?

In that situation then I'd say that the women is definitely in a sucky place, but I still would not say it was acceptable to cheat. Understandable, yes. The right thing to do? No. And I'd say--and have said--the same thing for the equivalent for a man being stuck in a horrible marriage.


----------



## Anon Pink

Sometimes you can't change what you are faced with. You've tried, you've done all that you can, but nothing has changed. Circumstances have you stuck where you are for now. Dire circumstances. You need something to help you cope with all that life is throwing at you. Hopefully, what you reach for is healthy and takes you closer to being even more healthy. 

My friends marriage is over and has been for some time. 

This has been fun thanks for such a great debate.

I'm meeting the girls for happy hour tonight. I'll be sure to put my lemon face on should anyone say something they shouldn't!


----------



## JCD

Caribbean Man said:


> And how does cheating help a crappy marriage?
> 
> How does deciding to have an affair help the problem or even the person?
> 
> It doesn't.
> 
> So then the infidelity is just an excuse. to have some fun in an otherwise unhappy marriage.
> 
> Would you say the majority of people who cheated were in crappy marriages?


At this point, it is no longer about 'fixing a crappy marriage'. Rebecca is a shrew, will always be a shrew, and seems to hate and resent her husband. Has since 3 months after the ring went on her finger.

So at this point, it is 'trying to keep one's sanity'. It is 'trying to find some happiness'. It is 'trying to control SOME aspect of your life'.

Because, and here is the point you seem to be DESPERATE to missm the 'betrayed spouse' has already been JUST AS SELFISH as any cheater could be in this situation. It is a ROTTEN MARRIAGE. 

They are looking out for themselves because their spouse has already refused to look out for them. They are all they have.

This offends you. But it is real.

Now, you can be like some of our older couples and have 'his interests/her interests' where they share a geographic location and a piece of paper they don't value. But because they aren't cheating, you may consider it a 'proper marriage'.

It isn't.

Edited to Add: No. Most cheaters are, at their hearts, selfish. I won't say none of them EVER have any justifications. According to TAM, every BS is above average, just like Lake Woebegone.

I am talking about a very specific case which I've clearly outlined MULTIPLE TIMES.


----------



## lovelygirl

MSP said:


> Those are all categories where the women gets to cheat and it's okay by you. Interesting. What if you have a husband with a nagging wife who doesn't want to have sex with him. Is it acceptable if he cheats?


You didn't read my post carefully!
In my post, *divorce is not an option * so cheating can to tolerable.


In your post, divorce is an option so cheating is not acceptable!


----------



## lovelygirl

MSP said:


> I just reread this and I think I misunderstood it the first time around. You're saying that all of these things happen to the one person, rather than them being separate cases. Is that right?


Yes, a woman having all that misfortune at once.


----------



## JCD

MSP said:


> Those are all categories where the women gets to cheat and it's okay by you. Interesting. What if you have a husband with a nagging wife who doesn't want to have sex with him. Is it acceptable if he cheats?


Before you make any more comments, read on the social repercussions of divorce on Indian women. They go from highly respected woman to pariah, frequently losing her kids, ALL social standing, ALL marriage prospects, MOST earning potential in one little decree.

Do YOU have the guts to get divorced if you would lose everything? Easy to say. Hard to do.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

JCD said:


> What the hell does this have to do with anything?
> 
> We are not talking about 'cheaters excuses'. We are saying that some situations need nuance. This is not 'cheater speak' for 'excuses'.
> 
> You want to hew to a very cut and dried morality. Okay. Killing is wrong. Someone is attacking your wife. Do you continue to believe killing is wrong, or do you say 'while killing IS wrong, I think it is worse to lose my wife'?
> 
> After all, you are used to losing friends to your moral stance. What is one more? It's more important than people.
> 
> This isn't a matter of some guy being raised in a crappy family who have no moral center.
> 
> This is about someone being in an objectively crappy marriage. The kind people look at and shake their heads about. Where if you told them 'Gail is cheating on Frank' you won't get a 'OMG!', you'll get a 'yeah...well...' with tones of 'it was just a matter of time seeing as how he treats her' No one says she's right...but everyone seems to understand.
> 
> If OUTSIDERS see your marriage as rotten, it's probably rotten.


Great points.

What I also see happening in this thread is that understanding cheating slowly morphs into accepting cheating which slowly morphs into saying it's excusable...based on the "situation" of course....

We can throw around the "third world" examples and what not, but if you live in the US and aren't chained to a wall in Cleveland...there's never an excusable situation to cheat. Do I understand when someone cheats....rarely but sometimes, but I will never excuse it. I don't define the "approval" of cheating based on the BS's behavior, because cheating comes from within the cheater. It shows a component of who they are under certain circumstances.

In my first marriage, I had EVERY understandable "reason" to cheat. I never did. I could give myself every excuse..but in my mind I was married, I took a vow and I won't break that vow. It didn't matter if my wife at the time had broken her vows or what her behavior was because those didn't define my integrity.

Let's be honest...sometimes cheating, in those "situations", is just EASIER, but never justifiable. His wife is XYZ...her husband is ABC...it doesn't matter. It's whether or not the prospective cheater wants to have short term pleasure at the expense of their word and integrity....even when it's "understandable".


----------



## lovelygirl

JCD said:


> Before you make any more comments, read on the social repercussions of divorce on Indian women. They go from highly respected woman to pariah, frequently losing her kids, ALL social standing, ALL marriage prospects, MOST earning potential in one little decree.
> 
> Do YOU have the guts to get divorced if you would lose everything? Easy to say. Hard to do.


Thank you!


----------



## MSP

lovelygirl said:


> You didn't read my post carefully!
> In my post, *divorce is not an option * so cheating can to tolerable.
> 
> In your post, divorce is an option so cheating is not acceptable!


Not always. There are men who will never divorce due to their religious convictions. Their wives know this and get away with truly horrendous behaviours with no repercussions.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Anon Pink said:


> Sometimes you can't change what you are faced with. You've tried, you've done all that you can, but nothing has changed. Circumstances have you stuck where you are for now. Dire circumstances. You need something to help you cope with all that life is throwing at you. Hopefully, what you reach for is healthy and takes you closer to being even more healthy.
> 
> My friends marriage is over and has been for some time.
> 
> This has been fun thanks for such a great debate.
> 
> I'm meeting the girls for happy hour tonight. I'll be sure to put my lemon face on should anyone say something they shouldn't!


I say this will all respect Anon, because you definitely deserve respect on this site...but

BULL PUCKY! LOL

CAN'T......BS....WON'T...okay...would be extremely difficult...DEFINITELY...but CAN'T....

There are very few things a human CAN'T DO. We can't hold our breath until we die. We can't go without food and water.

We CAN walk away from ANY marriage at ANY point. It may not be EASY, it might be the hardest thing someone has to do...but they CAN.

It's actually pretty simple.
Breaking integrity is easier in that equation than walking away from the marriage. Now, it may not be fun to admit that...but that's reality. One isn't better than the other, we're all human and all have issues. This is the one that fits the situation you describe.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

JCD said:


> Before you make any more comments, read on the social repercussions of divorce on Indian women. They go from highly respected woman to pariah, frequently losing her kids, ALL social standing, ALL marriage prospects, MOST earning potential in one little decree.
> 
> Do YOU have the guts to get divorced if you would lose everything? Easy to say. Hard to do.


Okay so for the women living in India...we'll have a different set of standards....I'm cool with that.

My discussions center on the US because that is where I live and have been raised and have had my social upbringing shaped by the US culture. So please understand that with my posts.


----------



## MSP

JCD said:


> Do YOU have the guts to get divorced if you would lose everything? Easy to say.


Yep. In fact, I've been in a similar situation. Many years ago I was in a cult, although I did not know it was such at the time. I did something wrong and was ejected and shunned by everyone I knew in the whole world. I was sick at the time, too. I had very little support from family and none from former friends. I was too sick to work and my parents would not take me into their home. I had to live in a halfway house for recovering addicts and violent offenders, of which I was neither. I had done something perfectly legal that no one in this thread would bat an eyelid over. 

There's more to it, but I have enough experience to know what it would feel like. Would I go through the situation in your example? Yes, I would. I've been through harder times than that, believe it or not.


----------



## lovelygirl

MSP said:


> Not always. There are men who will never divorce due to their religious convictions. Their wives know this and get away with truly horrendous behaviours with no repercussions.


This is not the case I was talking about and you know this very well.


----------



## sinnister

I'd be a chauvinistic neanderthal on this one.

Can't wrap my head around it.


----------



## melw74

Anon Pink said:


> LEFT!!!!! Right is too skinny. Left looks strong, strong is good.


Is the guy on the left wolverine from XMEN???


----------



## Chaparral

Machiavelli said:


> Okay, you're a bubbling cauldron of lust. These are the two guys at the club, who gets the call?


Jaw dropped to floor, its been a while since I saw something this funny. And with a point too!


----------



## JCD

Dad&Hubby said:


> Okay so for the women living in India...we'll have a different set of standards....I'm cool with that.
> 
> My discussions center on the US because that is where I live and have been raised and have had my social upbringing shaped by the US culture. So please understand that with my posts.


This is a fair point and I agree that using this 'outlier' as a point of comparison isn't fully valid.

But it is just another example of something I pointed out earlier. I described a Western man who would lose a ton because of the way divorce and his family was structured.

People make 'cost/benefit' analyses all the time. "She isn't much of a cook, but she makes me feel good about myself." "He's a little short, but he has REALLY broad shoulders."

One has only to look at divorce a few decades ago (or in Utah) to see how the state and society essentially forced people to remain married by raising the costs very high.

And again, remember, this is not based on 'right and wrong'. It is that people are flawed. That they make bad choices.

One thing I notice though, and don't take this as a slam: some people who piously discuss how this other person they don't know should 'have the character' to not cheat...well...they generally don't know the person involved, they have no emotional investment in their happiness and they may be divorced, but they generally didn't have one of these 'nuclear winter' divorces which is binding the person in question.

They are NOT eating tuna off a hot plate in a sh*tty apartment in a slum. They did NOT lose their entire family. 

Maybe you did. So I am cautious before I make a lot of judgment calls.


----------



## Tmj4477

You are people with two different interests and if you trust her what is the problem? Maybe she would like a break away from everything to include you, maybe she needs time to get her thoughts together in a new environment. Or maybe just maybe she just wants to have some time with her friends doing things they like without worrying about entertaining you. Unless you suspect she's cheating why are you tripping. By the way I know MANY women that their girls weekend helped them to NOT cheat due to the mental break


----------



## Dad&Hubby

JCD said:


> This is a fair point and I agree that using this 'outlier' as a point of comparison isn't fully valid.
> 
> But it is just another example of something I pointed out earlier. I described a Western man who would lose a ton because of the way divorce and his family was structured.
> 
> People make 'cost/benefit' analyses all the time. "She isn't much of a cook, but she makes me feel good about myself." "He's a little short, but he has REALLY broad shoulders."
> 
> One has only to look at divorce a few decades ago (or in Utah) to see how the state and society essentially forced people to remain married by raising the costs very high.
> 
> And again, remember, this is not based on 'right and wrong'. It is that people are flawed. That they make bad choices.
> 
> One thing I notice though, and don't take this as a slam: some people who piously discuss how this other person they don't know should 'have the character' to not cheat...well...they generally don't know the person involved, they have no emotional investment in their happiness and they may be divorced, but they generally didn't have one of these 'nuclear winter' divorces which is binding the person in question.
> 
> They are NOT eating tuna off a hot plate in a sh*tty apartment in a slum. They did NOT lose their entire family.
> 
> Maybe you did. So I am cautious before I make a lot of judgment calls.


I truly appreciate your "caution" because you're right. It's very easy to be a super-moralist, if you've never actually had your morals tested.

I went through a very rough divorce. I was sleeping on my parents sofa for 6 months before I moved into my 2 bedroom sheet hole of an appartment for a couple years after my divorce. I had to fight my ex tooth and nail for every minute I got to see my kids. She played games with every part of the divorce decree. All subtle things that are very hard to make stick in court like "the kids are sick" type of stuff. My daughter, who has always been a pillar of health, was the sickest little girl for 6 months immediately following my divorce.....

Now there are divorces that are worse than mine, but not many. But to me, I'd rather go through years of turmoil to get back on my feet than to live through what my "marriage" was, and also to avoid how negative and unhealthy that house would have been for my kids had their mom and I stayed together.


----------



## Marduk

MSP said:


> Okay, sure. No problem. Therefore, women are fully aware that they are going into an environment where men are looking to pick them up. And they're dancing with these men.
> 
> Tell me what is different about this than, say, a husband who knows his young, hot coworker wants to seduce him and he deliberately seeks her out to spend time with?


I'm going to go very far out on a limb here and say that the difference -- in my experience -- is society and gender roles in general.

I've been smacked on the head by my boss (who's female) for having female members of my team that are too attractive. Even when they are the most competent and capable members of the team.

I've been crapped on by my wife for being (even tangentially and not by choice) being around attractive women at work.

Both my boss and my wife make no bones about "going out with the girls and being hit on is just part of the experience and makes us feel good" so it's perceived as a GOOD thing. Because it's just "innocent fun" and improves their self-confidence.

But when I get hit on, or are even in attractive women's presence by nature of my existence I'm somehow "putting it out there" and want to cheat.

In my experience it's a pretty big double standard, and willfully so by 99% of the women in my life.

Of course, that doesn't mean I have to buy into it, and I don't.


----------



## Marduk

Tmj4477 said:


> You are people with two different interests and if you trust her what is the problem? Maybe she would like a break away from everything to include you, maybe she needs time to get her thoughts together in a new environment. Or maybe just maybe she just wants to have some time with her friends doing things they like without worrying about entertaining you. Unless you suspect she's cheating why are you tripping. By the way I know MANY women that their girls weekend helped them to NOT cheat due to the mental break


You had me agreeing with you right up to the last sentence, which is wrong on so many levels.

Help me understand how a woman who is thinking of cheating (has motivation) who goes away on a girl's weekend (means & opportunity) is going to be LESS tempted to cheat?

Everyone needs a break to de-stress. I've yet to see one affair in the dozen or so I've seen close-up be because of stress.

Every one I've seen has been because of a combination of:
1. lack of respect/affection/sex (motivation)
2. affair partner being in some way more attractive than spouse (motivation)
3. cheating spouse having the means to get away with it (no trust but verify, and no transparency in the marriage)
4. cheating spouse having the opportunity to get away with it (working long hours, travelling for work, hobbies that take them away from the marriage, etc)

Except of course for the 1-2 examples of a BSC spouse that I've seen.

Go read up on some wayward spouses in this forum. Read about boys/girls nights out, weekends away, and "it just happened."

I'm not saying that occasional innocent boys/girls weekends away aren't ok.

I am saying it is a signal that you ignore to your peril. When things are OK at home I take it as a reminder to keep things good. When things are bad at home and she goes away I take it to DefCon 3.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

I think the OP is justified in not trusting his wife. she hasn't cheated on him, necessarily, but she has told him she doesn't love him and is choosing to go away to a hook up environment with her friends. 

But I agree that he has to take charge of his situation, rather than let his "love" dictate a position of weakness. I think in all cases if someone does not love you, but you still love them - then it is not love per se, it is more akin to addiction.

BTW there is the sentiment that some put forward that all the ILWBINILWY speaker is doing is being honest about their feelings, its not their fault they fell out of love etc. I'm not sure about that. But all I want to say here is that honesty should work both ways and I think the receiver of that speech should be prompted to be honest in their response, perhaps taking a little time to absorb it. e.g. honest about their resentment at having wasted so much of their lives with the person giving the ILYBINILWY speech.


----------



## JCD

OP, if you are still out there, when she goes to Cabo or wherever, you go to Vegas. Take a bunch of money and credit cards with you.

After all, fair is fair. Of course you have ZERO intention of doing anything incorrect with your money or your Johnson. She should trust you...just like she is asking YOU to trust HER.


----------



## tom67

JCD said:


> OP, if you are still out there, when she goes to Cabo or wherever, you go to Vegas. Take a bunch of money and credit cards with you.
> 
> After all, fair is fair. Of course you have ZERO intention of doing anything incorrect with your money or your Johnson. She should trust you...just like she is asking YOU to trust HER.


JCD BINGO.:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Pault

I see it as a simple attitude and build up issue.

Ok fine, married (those in long term relationships) can go away on girlie or lads holidays. 

However, there is a chemistry mix which many will feel saafe about and others will see red flags the size of a house .

Safe mix is frequently people that the partner knows quite well. That the partner has no feelings that they would be the type to take advantage of the "stays on tour" attitude and that their own partner actually acts like their in a long term happy safe relationship. If that holidaying partner has an attitude of acting like their single then the red flag is justified and actions need to be taken, if the other holidaying members have a questionable attitude to committment then again the gut feeling needs to be listened to.
If there are a number of singles going then there is frequently an issue of "what will my married partner do if they hook up".
Even if there is nothing going on and the married partner stays out of trouble anything that gets back in relation to the actions of those who go with the "whats happens on tour stays on tour" attitude then the stay at home partner is right to have strong reservation. The poster here clearly is very uncomfortable with the lead in to this event and the potential for "our" attitude to take place. No matter what we say he is the one thats really uncomfortable and despite what we beleive, he is the one who must sit at home and ponder whats occuring when his gut is screaming RED FLAG. 
Many of the long term TAm guys keep referring to the "gut feeling", "if it feels wrong and then it is wrong" thoughts that bounce through heads. In this case we must respect that feeling the poster has and advise simpley based on what they feel, experiences encountered, historical issues and yes, that gut feeling that something is not adding up.


----------



## Marduk

JCD said:


> OP, if you are still out there, when she goes to Cabo or wherever, you go to Vegas. Take a bunch of money and credit cards with you.
> 
> After all, fair is fair. Of course you have ZERO intention of doing anything incorrect with your money or your Johnson. She should trust you...just like she is asking YOU to trust HER.


I have found that this is the only thing that made any impact with my wife.

It was all "innocent" until I started to do exactly what she was doing. Then it was panic city.


----------



## DoF

marduk said:


> I have found that this is the only thing that made any impact with my wife.
> 
> It was all "innocent" until I started to do exactly what she was doing. Then it was panic city.


When trouble arises, it's always best to give your partner a taste of their own shiiiit (aka: make them see things from your shoes).

Things seem to get resolved rather quickly that way.....


----------



## JCD

DoF said:


> When trouble arises, it's always best to give your partner a taste of their own shiiiit (aka: make them see things from your shoes).
> 
> Things seem to get resolved rather quickly that way.....


When I get a hankering to behave badly, I imagine my wife behaving in the same fashion I want to behave.

Takes the fun right out of it, let me tell you.


----------



## Pault

"Originally Posted by marduk 
I have found that this is the only thing that made any impact with my wife.

*It was all "innocent" until I started to do exactly what she was doing. Then it was panic city*."

I think this is about the best way to curb the "go walk about" issue. Especially if youve turned slightly dark. Then its her turn to guesstimate what the hecks happening. Especially when you say someone she doesnt like is going as well. then the whole thing turns. It isnt easy, easpecially if your not a lads away fella but sometimes the medicine has to taste awful to do some good. And you never know, you might find you like the away days


----------



## Anon Pink

As a woman who goes on girls only weekends twice a year, I have no problem with my husband doing the same. When our kids were little he used to go on golfing weekends every year. That stopped for a while due to finances and the kids always being in one sport of another that he just couldn't miss. But my first ever girls weekend was three years ago, after we'd been married for 26 years!

So yes, if I can do a girls weekend, I have no problem with my husband doing the same...and he does.


----------



## bandit.45

Bunny Ranch!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JCD

bandit.45 said:


> Bunny Ranch!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How do you herd bunnies?


----------



## Dad&Hubby

JCD said:


> How do you herd bunnies?


With lots of cabbage.


----------



## memyselfandi

It's called trust. 

I don't go on girl's weekends but I DO have "girl's day outs" with my bestie. We shop til we drop, have lunch..and then shop some more. Oftentimes it's a whole day deal as there's nothing better than spending girl time and talking girl talk about stuff our hubbies aren't interested in the least anyway.

It's like guys having their hunting weekends. No biggie.


----------



## Chaparral

Anon Pink said:


> As a woman who goes on girls only weekends twice a year, I have no problem with my husband doing the same. When our kids were little he used to go on golfing weekends every year. That stopped for a while due to finances and the kids always being in one sport of another that he just couldn't miss. But my first ever girls weekend was three years ago, after we'd been married for 26 years!
> 
> So yes, if I can do a girls weekend, I have no problem with my husband doing the same...and he does.


Have you or your husband been caught cheating in the past?


----------



## JCD

Anon Pink said:


> As a woman who goes on girls only weekends twice a year, I have no problem with my husband doing the same. When our kids were little he used to go on golfing weekends every year. That stopped for a while due to finances and the kids always being in one sport of another that he just couldn't miss. But my first ever girls weekend was three years ago, after we'd been married for 26 years!
> 
> So yes, if I can do a girls weekend, I have no problem with my husband doing the same...and he does.


This is good. It is great you have that strong a relationship. It's good that you have that level of trust.

The OP does NOT have that sort of relationship and his wife had pretty much told him 'I don't love you'. He was further told that HIS vacation plans needed to be on the back burner to her friend's vacation plans.

I am not disagreeing with you but noting the differences between the two circumstances.


----------



## Marduk

JCD said:


> This is good. It is great you have that strong a relationship. It's good that you have that level of trust.
> 
> The OP does NOT have that sort of relationship and his wife had pretty much told him 'I don't love you'. He was further told that HIS vacation plans needed to be on the back burner to her friend's vacation plans.
> 
> I am not disagreeing with you but noting the differences between the two circumstances.


It's like sex.

It's not a problem until it's a problem... then it's a BIG problem.


----------



## Anon Pink

Chaparral said:


> Have you or your husband been caught cheating in the past?


Technically no. I've told this before...

Before we got married, he lived in another state for almost 9 months. 

My husband had a "UTI" that prevented us from consummating our marriage for 10 days so he could finish the course of antibiotics. At the time, I didn't know any better. Once I had my first UTI, about 5 years later, I realized he had been lying about his UTI. 

I have never confronted him about it. It was so long ago. And I still can see the fear in his eyes as he explained that under no circumstance could we have sex because the UTI might cause me more permenent harm. He was nearly crying.

We weren't yet married and we could only see each other three times, so I felt I couldn't hold it against him.

As you know WL, I suspected my husband had had an affair and sought your advice privately. Nothing came of it so I dropped it.


----------



## JCD

Anon Pink said:


> Technically no. I've told this before...
> 
> Before we got married, he lived in another state for almost 9 months.
> 
> My husband had a "UTI" that prevented us from consummating our marriage for 10 days so he could finish the course of antibiotics. At the time, I didn't know any better. Once I had my first UTI, about 5 years later, I realized he had been lying about his UTI.
> 
> I have never confronted him about it. It was so long ago. And I still can see the fear in his eyes as he explained that under no circumstance could we have sex because the UTI might cause me more permenent harm. He was nearly crying.
> 
> We weren't yet married and we could only see each other three times, so I felt I couldn't hold it against him.
> 
> As you know WL, I suspected my husband had had an affair and sought your advice privately. Nothing came of it so I dropped it.


I think it admirable that you were able to offer some grace in a gray area.

However if, at that very moment in your marriage, he suggested that he take a all male vacation to Bangkok, you probably would demure.

This doesn't make you wrong. It's just an indication of how the strength of the marriage has some bearing on the matter.


----------



## weightlifter

got it anon. btw. never mentioned it to anyone. I never divulge unless released. I guess the above was the release. lol. glad it was nothing. believe it or not I hope every time it's possible that it's a false red. it turns out to be a false red.

you mentioned other inappropriateness at your first GNO besides the make out. generically what was the incident? half sentence description, not a play by play.


----------



## JCD

Do we need to add fuel to the fire? Anon has been more than forthcoming about her history but I don't want to see a resurgence in people taking gratuitous pot shots because they don't like some of the choices she's made.

It isn't their life. It isn't their marriage.


----------



## Anon Pink

Thank you JCD. It is my marriage and my choice.

My husband took golf weekends every year for about 5 years once the older girls were in school full time. He stopped taking the golf weekends once the girls were playing sport, he never read them a story but never missed a game!

The thought crossed my mind, 12 married men in the thick of raising little ones. At the time we had a sexless marriage to boot!

In march of 2009 I told my husband I wanted a divorce. Event happened that prevented the divorce. We decided to stay together, but nothing changed.

In the fall of 2010, I told my husband I wasn't in love with him any more and things could not continue as they were.

But they did.

In Jan of 2011, I was diagnosed with bone cancer and had 3 ribs removed.

In June of 2011, I went on my very first girls weekend and had a BLAST! Went again in October. My husband was not pleased but he could not say no because he had taken many golf weekends and I never said a thing. He questioned me up one side and down the other about a bunch of text messages on my phone. The one friend was having an affair and used my phone to text her lover since her husband had found her burner phone.

My marriage stayed pretty lousy until I came here. Until I finally got the guts to say I was done, and mean it! Once I meant it, he could tell and he started to shape up.

If it wasn't for those girls weekends, I would have been a miserable basket case. They didn't save my marriage but they saved me. I was also caring for my brother who had ALS and my sister who has stage IV kidney cancer while working full time.

I'm pretty damn resilient but all those things happening at the same time was too much even for me.

You can't save a marriage with a lock and key. But you can save a marriage by being the guy your wife fell in love with.


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## MSP

I appreciate your honesty, AP. I don't agree with some of your choices, but I'd be a hypocrite to pretend that I'm a better person.


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## Chaparral

Anon Pink said:


> Technically no. I've told this before...
> 
> Before we got married, he lived in another state for almost 9 months.
> 
> My husband had a "UTI" that prevented us from consummating our marriage for 10 days so he could finish the course of antibiotics. At the time, I didn't know any better. Once I had my first UTI, about 5 years later, I realized he had been lying about his UTI.
> 
> I have never confronted him about it. It was so long ago. And I still can see the fear in his eyes as he explained that under no circumstance could we have sex because the UTI might cause me more permenent harm. He was nearly crying.
> 
> We weren't yet married and we could only see each other three times, so I felt I couldn't hold it against him.
> 
> As you know WL, I suspected my husband had had an affair and sought your advice privately. Nothing came of it so I dropped it.


Are you saying you figured out he caught something because that's how you caught a uti? You make it sound like, by having an affair, you figured out he had previously had an affair.


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## ScarletBegonias

Chaparral said:


> Are you saying you figured out he caught something because that's how you caught a uti? You make it sound like, by having an affair, you figured out he had previously had an affair.


How did you get that out of what she posted?? He said he had to be on antibiotics for 10 days...not typical for a standard uti. Years later when she got a uti for the first time she realized he lied about his. She realized it likely bc she wasn't put on a 10 day antibiotic course and he didn't have any of the symptoms she had with hers. Nowhere does she indicate she got her UTI from having an affair.


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## Wolf1974

ScarletBegonias said:


> How did you get that out of what she posted?? He said he had to be on antibiotics for 10 days...not typical for a standard uti. Years later when she got a uti for the first time she realized he lied about his. She realized it likely bc she wasn't put on a 10 day antibiotic course and he didn't have any of the symptoms she had with hers. Nowhere does she indicate she got her UTI from having an affair.


Well I guess I also didn't follow the logic on that Scarlet. I have had a UTI as result of a small passing kidney stone. I was put on antibiotics for 10 days and told best to avoid sex for 2 weeks. Although I can't remember specifically the reason why, because I felt fine by day three. I'm guessing not to pass it on? I was single at the time so was no issue on that from anyway lol


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## ScarletBegonias

Wolf1974 said:


> Well I guess I also didn't follow the logic on that Scarlet. I have had a UTI as result of a small passing kidney stone. I was put on antibiotics for 10 days and told best to avoid sex for 2 weeks. Although I can't remember specifically the reason why, because I felt fine by day three. I'm guessing not to pass it on? I was single at the time so was no issue on that from anyway lol


for very mild uti's, the most you'll have to do is drink a ton of cranberry juice or take a cranberry pill while drinking a LOT of water. Unless your doctor is prescription happy then of course you'll be slapped w/an Rx for amoxicillin, augmentin ,doxy or something of that nature. If you passed a kidney stone and developed a uti then it was likely too severe for natural remedies.
I just assumed he convinced her he had a mild uti without any of the debilitating,painful symptoms that come from a severe one that would require the long antibiotic round. Once she had one of her own she realized he likely had an std and not a uti.


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## Anon Pink

SB has it right. Once I had a UTI I understood he had been lying about his UTI when we got married. It was a total of 15 days actually, that he was on the antibiotics. He told me about it a few days before the wedding when he arrived in town, knowing we could not have sex.

Sheeshe WL...zebras!


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## Anon Pink

It is very rare for young healthy men to get a UTI. 

I guess I should have been more explicit in my initial explanation. I'm assuming most men know as much about UTI's as most women.

The symptoms come on fast and the stronger the symptoms the stronger the infection. Antibiotics are generally 5-7 days for a strong infection. No antibiotics for a weaker infection. Symptoms typically clear up within 24 hours of antibiotics. I have never been advised not to have sex during any of my countless UTI's. I used to get several a year until I started a very strict hygiene protocol making sure I pee before and after sex, making sure my husband's hands are clean with ZERO anal play! Of course when the symptoms are present the last thing you want is sex.


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## Caribbean Man

It is much easier for a woman to contract a UTI than a man because of the physiological difference of female reproductive organs.

Male UTI can stem from kidney infections, but kidney infections in young men mostly occur either after they contract an STD if it was left untreated, or if they have kidney stones , which is rare.

The 10 day hiatus after treatment and before ensures that it isn't passed on to the female.

Females can, and often do contact UTI's from an entire range of non sexually related reasons.


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## Chaparral

I had a uti with only one symptom, I became pee shy. That was weird. Had it for a long time and have no idea how I got it.


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## lovelygirl

intheory said:


> This thread has morphed from "girls only holiday" to "UTI's". Kind of fascinating.


:rofl:


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## Noble1

hee hee, I had started reading this thread, then skipped a couple of days...then had to go back to the beginning to understand how all the topic changes came about.


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## Wolf1974

ScarletBegonias said:


> for very mild uti's, the most you'll have to do is drink a ton of cranberry juice or take a cranberry pill while drinking a LOT of water. Unless your doctor is prescription happy then of course you'll be slapped w/an Rx for amoxicillin, augmentin ,doxy or something of that nature. If you passed a kidney stone and developed a uti then it was likely too severe for natural remedies.
> I just assumed he convinced her he had a mild uti without any of the debilitating,painful symptoms that come from a severe one that would require the long antibiotic round. Once she had one of her own she realized he likely had an std and not a uti.


Ok gotcha..


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