# Will this turn physical?



## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

First time post, and a very long one at that, but I have a lot to get off my chest.
There is a specific point to this, but the background is important.
Thank you for reading, and go easy on me - and on her.

*Background*: My wife and I have been together 13 years, are in our mid-40s, two kids, both in high-pressured jobs, and pretty much have it all. We are _extremely_ compatible on almost every level, highly educated and generally very rational human beings. She is a beautiful, strong, intelligent and highly successful woman, but does suffer from mental health issues, including depression and low self esteem (stemming from her upbringing). My personality can be described as friendly, open and giving on the outside, but actually very hard to access on the inside - she is one of very few people who has ever managed to cross my deepest barriers if that makes sense. We love each other wholeheartedly, and our long-term commitment to each other has never been in any doubt (including throughout our current predicament).
Despite all this, we do have a number of long-term issues. Sex has, for a long time, been a major issue. After the initial "spike", our sex life rapidly deteriorated for several reasons. We were never super compatible in the bedroom (on the pure nitty gritty physical side of things), there was an early conflict with a family member which led to some lingering resentment (this got resolved eventually), and the combination of having two kids and full-time jobs pretty much finished things off for a long time. She is a total sapiophile who needs mental stimulation to get aroused, and unfortunately it is often difficult for me to give her that when she needs it. To her, this feels like a real rejection of her sexuality and needs, and she has become convinced that I do not fancy her or want to be intimate with her. This isn't at all true, but it makes complete sense that she feels that way, and I am entirely to blame for that. On the flipside, I am a very tactile person who thrives on small physical interactions (as expressions of love, affection and desire) - while she has a very strong dislike of being touched, unless it is as a prelude to sex. As a result, we are both starved of the affirmation we need and crave from each other. We have discussed this openly and honestly many times, as we do with pretty much everything, but never mustered the time and energy to do enough about it. I am probably more to blame than she is in this regard, although neither side has made sufficient effort, and we both acknowledge that.
Finally, I am much more of the nurturing type than she is, which means I do about 80-90% of taking care of the kids. I also do the majority of the house work, although this varies. She is by no means lazy, in fact quite the opposite, and is extremely capable of tackling grand projects (both at work and around the house) - but not the day-to-day grind. Her depression is a major factor in this (still, despite her receiving active support for it). I don't mind this dynamic, in fact it fits my personality quite well, but oftentimes the sheer inequality of it does create resentment on my part. I tend to express this as coldness or sometimes passive-aggressiveness, rather than tackling things head on with her. Again, something I am working on. Naturally, such occasional coldness reinforces the feeling for her that I don't fancy her, or in fact love her all that much.

*Disclaimer*: despite the issues laid out, we do talk and discuss things openly and honestly, and we are both in it for the long haul. We know the grass will never stay greener on the other side, even if it can seem that way on occasion.

*Fairly recent history*: Around 4 years ago my wife had what can best be described as an emotional affair with her boss. This was something that grew organically through their day-to-day interactions, and was very much initiated by him (as it turned out, the affable exterior hid a manipulative narcissist). He fitted her type: slightly older male, highly intelligent, nurturing and supportive (at least on the surface of things), and in a position of power. They obviously spent a lot of time together at work, did a number of business trips abroad together and so on. On a few occasions he pushed for things to get physical, but she never crossed that line, despite our non-existent sex life at that point. I do not doubt her in that, knowing fully well that she could have without me ever finding out. She confessed to me at some point to having a "crush" on him, told me about the times he tried to go for more, and was honest about having some feelings for him. This was painful to find out, and I resented her for seeking attention elsewhere. I felt I was giving her my all, but of course I was withholding the affirmation she actually needed. I acknowledge this in retrospect, but it was harder for me to see it at the time. This should have also been a wake-up call for both of us, but we never managed to resolve our issues properly, and sort of let the situation play out. I trusted her reassurances that this would work its way through her system (which it did) and that things would never get physical (which I still believe didn't). In the end, the process was sped up through an incident at her work, where he dropped her like a stone, but it set a precedent for more recent events.

*More recent events*: In early April we went through another super busy spell, were a bit cranky with each other, and had several arguments. Our lack of intimacy came up again, and once more my response was pretty lacklustre (partly due to some resentment I was feeling towards her at the time for not pulling her weight around the house and kids). She had had a few drinks, and was on her laptop while we were watching a move (this is pretty standard). I noticed her typing a message, but didn't think too much of it because we message for work at odd times a lot anyway. Then she declared she was going to bed early, would sleep in the guest bedroom, and needed some privacy. I was a little taken aback and asked why, and she effectively said she needed space to masturbate since I wasn't going to step up to the plate. What worried me about that interaction was not so much the thing itself, but the message that was sent right before it happened.
A day or so later, I did what I had never done in the 13 years before: I went and looked at her email. She is a bit of a luddite and very careless with her devices (read: no passcode on phone, leaves deleted emails in the Trash folder, etc.). As it turns out, her email was to a colleague: "Fancy that coffee?". This was accompanied by a search history from that same evening of photos of him (public). Now this colleague is an early-50s male who she works with occasionally. Again he fits her interest profile: intelligent, position of power, etc. What I knew at the time was that he had gone through a nasty divorce around a year prior, she'd given him some emotional support, and he had hinted at interest in her. There was an open invitation for coffee and a getting to know each other better outside the sphere of work. She had never responded to it (and in fact had mentioned it to me in passing, dismissing it as sweet but a little inappropriate) - until that point. Now, clearly, she had a) taken him up on his invitation, and b) had a sexual fantasy about him.
I felt bad for snooping, and thought about this for several days, but ultimately confronted her about it. She was angry with me for going through her stuff and distrusting her, and initially tried to dismiss the intent and extent of the contact. After I explained how it made me feel, she relented and said sorry, and promised she'd kick the conversation into the long grass - which she did.

*Easter holiday*: For Easter we went away on a holiday/family visit for 10 days. Frustratingly, she received a work assignment a few days prior, which meant she would have to do some work while we were away. We discussed it and agreed that she should take the assignment, as long as she would minimize its impact. As it turned out, she spent 5 full days working on it, while I was left to look after the kids on my own. I was annoyed with her about this, and we left with a fair degree of coldness. I went home with the kids, she stayed over for another week for a number of business meetings. After she came back (last weekend), the feeling of distance was still there, but off and on - some moments were close, some were distant. The evening she came back she was probing for sex, and we actually spent the Bank Holiday morning in bed (and did it twice, sorry for the detail). We talked some more about our intimacy problem, and how we would try and work on it. The rest of the day was a happy one, but what I didn't realise was that something else was going on in the background.

*This past week*: Tuesday was pretty uneventful, but on Wednesday morning she was extremely "off". She spent most of the morning downstairs with her laptop, wouldn't come up to the home office to start her work, spent time wandering around the garden gazing into space. I noticed of course, offered to help, talk about it, and so on. She was her normal self with me and said it had all been too much work-wise and she was feeling a bit burnt out, stressed, etc. I did not question this to begin with (it would be entirely understandable if she felt like that), but as the day went on something did not feel right. So in the evening, as she was making dinner, I checked her laptop again - and found she had been using a Gmail address. Now, she has never had Gmail, or any private social media, so this was highly suspect to me. The worry kept me up for most of the night, and in the end, I checked into that Gmail address to find out what was going on. As it turned out, she had reached out again to the colleague mentioned above on the final night of her business trip - "Fancy a chat?". He was a bit slow to respond, and they exchanged a few innocuous messages on Sunday and Monday, but on Tuesday the tone changed. First, she asked him to switch to his private email. Then, she asked him about his intentions when he asked her for coffee that time. Then the chat rapidly went downhill from there. I have been able to check in on their conversation since (she is unaware of this), but she knows I have looked at her computer - she thinks she's covered her tracks, but she's terrible at that and the signs are all over the place. Here are some excerpts (anonymised) from the chat:

Tuesday evening
HER: When you asked me out for coffee, did you ask me out for coffee, or for coffee?
HIM: At the time and knowing your circumstances it was for a coffee with no hidden agenda. Under different circumstances I would ask you out for 'a coffee'.
HER: By the way if circumstances were different I would have come for coffee and the biscuits.... seriously bad I know....
HIM: I think the coffee and biscuits would have been amazing.
HER: I am in awe of smart people, and you are pretty much at the pinnacle of the sexiest smarts.
HIM: You definitely win the series smart [...] award....hope you don't mind me saying.
HER: I know what you mean about sharing stuff. I always feel like that when I travel. It's probably why I emailed you late at night after I'd had wine.....
HIM: Hope you're not regretting the wine induced email.

Wednesday morning
HER: I spent last night thinking about the "Hope you're not regretting the wine induced email." I know you didn't mean it as a question, but I feel like I need to address this. I have never cheated on my husband before this email conversation (which I do regard as a form of cheating, albeit not as bad as others). Do I regret it? At this moment I feel numb about it, [...] but I do have my reasons. You have always been so kind to me, you are super impressive, and I spent lockdown wondering if you were into me. I am conflicted but, in this moment, I don't regret it. I spent last night thinking about you, what I'd like you to do to me, and I am fighting the urge to tell you in detail about it. I need a cold shower.
HER: Your breakup must have been awful for you, and whatever else I owe you a hug....I'll just try and keep my tongue in my mouth.
HIM: Thank you so much for being so open with me … its amazing! I must admit that I had quite a sleepless night too! I must admit that there was a serious ‘wow’ factor when I first met you – cards on the table – I am most definitely ‘into you’. I would love you to tell me what you would like me to do to you (although I have quite a few ideas myself)! [...] Off to a cold shower too (although a hot shower shared is much more fun)!!!

At this point, I confronted her about my suspicions, without revealing that I already knew every single detail. I know this is manipulative of me, but I had to see whether she would confess and tell me everything. It took several days, and a good number of very emotional chats, to get _most of it_ out of her. Initially she didn't want to talk about it, said this was just something small that would pass without any consequence, and so on. But the chat with him continued, even though the innuendo got dialled down.

Thursday
HIM: Not sure if I should confess my age. I’m actually 52. What about you? Still can't quite believe that you may have feelings for me.
HER: I am 44, although you make me feel about 18...I have made you a noncorporeal mixtape [followed by a list of songs about crushes, desires, and ones I know she considers "songs for intimacy"]. The thought of how well you can keep a beat does things to me physically - sorry I shouldn't be provocative.
HIM: The trouble with drummers is that they speed up when the adrenaline kicks in...please be provocative...

On Friday I was very confrontational, having read what they exchanged and knowing my earlier intervention had not made any difference. I accused her of initiating, and continuing, an emotional affair. She was super defensive about it, but eventually acknowledged it, although she still maintains that things didn't turn sexual in tone. She has been contrite since - saying she's sorry, will do whatever she can to make me feel safe. This was her last message to him.

Friday
HER: Hiya, I am not ghosting you, but I need some time ok. Keep safe.
HIM: Of course. Fully understand. Keep safe too.

We have since talked more about this, and things feel somewhat better. There is certainly an intention on both sides to fix things, and I know she is genuinely sorry about what she has done. However, things are still very raw for me. I still worry constantly, because I know she is still leaving out certain details and left the chat very open-ended. I do not feel I can 100% trust her at this moment. She has a business trip coming up Monday-Wednesday. I guess I will be following her "secret" Gmail to see how this ends, or continues (which would honestly break my heart and cause very long-lasting damage).

*My ask*: Sorry that was a hell of a lot to get off my chest. I don't know if I should have shared all that detail, but I had to tell someone. You've probably seen/read this all a million times before. I don't feel much anger or resentment - and I don't even really blame her for what happened. I acknowledge my own role in the build up to all this, and my responsibility in resolving the situation and building an even stronger foundation for our marriage.
I did want to end with a specific ask (I don't need solutions, or marriage advice - the root causes are well known to both of us and we are determined to fix those): Would you judge her intention was to keep things within the boundaries of an "emotional affair" (chat, fantasy) as she has claimed? Or would you say that the intention was there from the start to cross over into more intimate interactions (sexting, photos, etc.), or even end up with a full-on physical affair? I have no doubt he would go for it, despite her claims that he's the nicest guy and not a home-wrecker, but I have been unable discern her ultimate intensions. Maybe she didn't have a clear idea where this would lead to, I just don't know. She maintains that this was only ever about relatively harmless attention seeking - but I am doubtful given the speed and intensity with which the chat developed, and the readiness with which they admitted desires to one another. I am also worried about his mention of feelings - desires and lust are one thing, but feelings are a completely different level. She never actually mentioned feelings towards him (only an interest and sexual attraction), but it can get very messy if she fans that flame in a colleague.

Thank you for listening/reading, and please let me know what you think.


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## Tested_by_stress (Apr 1, 2021)

You need to blow this open and call her out on what you know. As, for her and him on a "business" trip? That would be a hard no. If they continue to work together, this is going to develop into a full blown physical affair.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

MaroonedDoc said:


> First time post, and a very long one at that, but I have a lot to get off my chest.
> There is a specific point to this, but the background is important.
> Thank you for reading, and go easy on me - and on her.
> 
> ...


@MaroonedDoc Welcome to TAM. What a difficult story to read. Difficult in the sense of cringing at many points during the reading of it.

Very simply, you significantly slowed sexual interactions with your wife, which she is very unhappy about. She cheated on you, and later tried to cheat on you. Now she is cheating again, and clearly wants to get in the sack with this guy.

So. You ask what are her intentions…is she playing in the “safe” space of an emotional affair or is she trying to take this further.

Dude. Your wife’s sexual energy is at a peak in her life. You aren’t there to take care of her. This OM is banging the **** out of her in her fantasy life. And they can be together whenever they want. WTH do you think is going to happen? Of course she’s going to get physical. Emotional affairs are strong, addictive, and if there’s opportunity to consummate, it will happen.

In fact, I would not be so sure about the first go round 4 years ago. You’re seeing evidence right now that she minimizes and avoids details that would incriminate her. Do you think she just started doing that now? Of course she banged her boss.

You let this go on by not dealing with the infidelity and marriage issues from the beginning. She knows she can ‘play’ with no consequences, and you seem to be ok with that. Now it will go further and could turn into a long term physical affair.

If you want to wait until she does the deed and try to figure out how to react, go ahead. I would not be so patient. I would blow it all up right now and she would _not_ be going on any trips where this guy was, or D would be waiting for her return. No contact with this OM ever again, or D. She has already committed adultery, numerous times. Why are you ok with that?


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

Tested_by_stress said:


> You need to blow this open and call her out on what you know. As, for her and him on a "business" trip? That would be a hard no. If they continue to work together, this is going to develop into a full blown physical affair.


Thanks for the reply. I have (although I am playing some cards close to my chest) and she has responded appropriately. The business trip will not be the both of them, otherwise I would have indeed insisted she cancels it (or sleeps with a Zoom link on all night - which was actually one of her suggestions).


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> @MaroonedDoc Welcome to TAM. What a difficult story to read. Difficult in the sense of bringing at many points during the reading of it.
> 
> Very simply, you significantly slowed sexual interactions with your wife, which she is very unhappy about. She cheated on you, and later tried to cheat on you. Now she is cheating again, and clearly wants to get in the sack with this guy.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. I know it can be hard to judge a situation purely by reading a biased account on here, and it is tricky to convey our connection and depth or our relationship. As I said, I had no reason to distrust her for 13 years, and in many ways I still don't. She's a terrible liar and whenever I press her I know whether she is telling the truth or deflecting/playing things down. I know she didn't go there with her old boss (and that's not me being naïve) - but the combination of factors in this case puts her intentions in a much different light.

And yes, I did already acknowledge my own failings in this, and they are being addressed (partly as a result of this coming out).


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

MaroonedDoc said:


> Thanks for the reply. I know it can be hard to judge a situation purely by reading a biased account on here, and it is tricky to convey our connection and depth or our relationship. As I said, I had no reason to distrust her for 13 years, and in many ways I still don't. She's a terrible liar and whenever I press her I know whether she is telling the truth or deflecting/playing things down. I know she didn't go there with her old boss (and that's not me being naïve) - but the combination of factors in this case puts her intentions in a much different light.
> 
> And yes, I did already acknowledge my own failings in this, and they are being addressed (partly as a result of this coming out).


Fair enough but none of that matters a bit with respect to this upcoming trip.

It seems really clear to me what her thinking is with leaving that door open for him. Whether she did it before or not may speak to her character and your relationship but means diddly once she gets on this trip, in a hotel bar, with this OM who she clearly wants and has pursued.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> Fair enough but none of that matters a bit with respect to this upcoming trip.
> 
> It seems really clear to me what her thinking is with leaving that door open for him. Whether she did it before or not may speak to her character and your relationship but means diddly once she gets on this trip, in a hotel bar, with this OM who she clearly wants and has pursued.


Thankfully he will not be on the same trip, but point very much taken.

People will find a way to cheat if they really want to, and it would be pointless pretending I could take away that opportunity. I travel a lot for work as well, you can always nip out of work and get a room for an hour or two, or at a pinch there's the office desk. The only way to prevent that is from having a strong enough relationship (which, by and large, we do) and ensure there is nothing serious lacking (which admittedly I neglected in the past). Divorce would be the ultimate sanction, but is not on the cards from either side.

The reason for my "wait and see" comment is that she will be alone in a hotel room for 2 nights with plenty of time to decide if she wants to go ahead with it (now that it is out in the open), or if she backs down. Her thinking she is unobserved in this will ensure that whatever she decides is genuine. I guess time will tell.

P.S. she has not checked into her Gmail account since that final message


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

MaroonedDoc said:


> First time post, and a very long one at that, but I have a lot to get off my chest.
> There is a specific point to this, but the background is important.
> Thank you for reading, and go easy on me - and on her.
> 
> ...


oh boy! Quit playing games with her. Simply print out the emails throw them in her face. She quits her job NOW. Non-negotiable, Ultimatum.......you switch jobs or we divorce and he’s all yours, Next you confront the POSOM. Next step emails are provided to Human Resources where they work. Quit being so convoluted playing mind games.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Neither of you are happy in this marriage.

You two have not been happy for a long time.

The future for you two, looks the same, no resolution.


You caught her cheating.
She had cheated at work before, this being the 2nd time.

You do not make her happy, she does not make you happy.

Why be that policeman?
Let her go.
Divorce.

I would write, divorce amicably, but that may not be possible on your part.
I get it.

If you divorce, It will make her happy and soon, and you will find another woman that is more compatible.

This is all it is, you two are not meant for each other.
It happens, accept it, and move on.

Life is so damn short, why waste it, _tilting at windmills._

You have many good years ahead of you, make the best of them with a new love.



_Are Dee-_


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

SunCMars said:


> Neither of you are happy in this marriage.
> 
> You two have not been happy for a long time.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. I respectfully disagree. Yes we are unhappy about one specific aspect of our relationship - but in every other way what we have blows every other relationship out of the water. We've both been in the game long enough to know that we've found the right one (soulmates, without trying to sounding corny). Getting a divorce would be a total kneejerk, and guarantee we both end up unhappy. Despite our history and what she has done, there is no doubt in my mind that things can be fixed.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> oh boy! Quit playing games with her. Simply print out the emails throw them in her face. She quits her job NOW. Non-negotiable, Ultimatum.......you switch jobs or we divorce and he’s all yours, Next you confront the POSOM. Next step emails are provided to Human Resources where they work. Quit being so convoluted playing mind games.


That would be incredibly rash, counter-productive and instantly destroy something we have spent more than a decade building up. Not a chance, unless things spin much further out of control. She knows she is on notice and I need to see how she responds, genuinely, and without me being present.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Are you a medical doctor?


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

Sfort said:


> Are you a medical doctor?


Sorry how is this relevant?


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

MaroonedDoc said:


> Sorry how is this relevant?


You have “doc” in your user name. How we answer questions is often influenced by characteristics of the poster. We have several real doctors here.


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## bygone (11 mo ago)

emotional relationships do not end when they are caught. she already stated that in the message.

The man will try to reach your wife.

your wife is aware that you are tracking her devices

Communication can continue at work or with a second phone.

When your wife gets back from her business trip, ask for a polygraph.

Does it accept?

You said you would try to mend your relationship.

Unnatural things don't last long. You cannot change yourself.


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## Tested_by_stress (Apr 1, 2021)

Just to be clear OP, she is already cheating.She even acknowledged it in her correspondence with the other man. Btw, a polite chat reminding him of what he stands to lose economically , might be a good idea.


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## Diceplayer (Oct 12, 2019)

You stated that you're not looking for advice, so I will just state what you already know. You are not taking care of your wife's needs and she will have no problems finding someone who will. This ball is in your court.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

Sfort said:


> You have “doc” in your user name. How we answer questions is often influenced by characteristics of the poster. We have several real doctors here.


Understood - I am a Dr, not an MD


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> oh boy! Quit playing games with her. Simply print out the emails throw them in her face. She quits her job NOW. Non-negotiable, Ultimatum.......you switch jobs or we divorce and he’s all yours, Next you confront the POSOM. Next step emails are provided to Human Resources where they work. Quit being so convoluted playing mind games.


Not sure this would help too much as after 2 inappropriate relationship s she may well just find more guys at another job. Her problem is her lack of boundaries. 

Op your wife is playing with fire and you will all get burnt if she carries on.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

Tested_by_stress said:


> Just to be clear OP, she is already cheating.She even acknowledged it in her correspondence with the other man. Btw, a polite chat reminding him of what he stands to lose economically , might be a good idea.


I have considered this, and again this will depend on his reaction. If she cuts it off and he honours it, then I see no point pushing that. After all, he only reacted to her reaching out. Up to that point, it was just a dirty little fantasy in his mind (and frankly, I couldn't care less about that - my wife's hot and it's that's my win).


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

Diceplayer said:


> You stated that you're not looking for advice, so I will just state what you already know. You are not taking care of your wife's needs and she will have no problems finding someone who will. This ball is in your court.


Action is already being taken where that is concerned - message received loud and clear on my part.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

Diana7 said:


> Op your wife is playing with fire and you will all get burnt if she carries on.


That is indeed my worry...damage all-round...and the primary reason for a) bringing this out in the open before anything else happens; and b) making amends on my end to fix the parts of our relationship that aren't functioning well.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MaroonedDoc said:


> That is indeed my worry...damage all-round...and the primary reason for a) bringing this out in the open before anything else happens; and b) making amends on my end to fix the parts of our relationship that aren't functioning well.


Whether the relationship is struggling or not she needs to have strong boundaries which right now she hasn't. She is going after other men.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

Was this physical? Come on. You know deep down that her boss and her were having sex on their trips and locally. 

To be honest, your marriage sounds so cold and unloving. Why stay in a sexless marriage were neither of you are getting your needs met? You should have left her years ago.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

jsmart said:


> Was this physical? Come on. You know deep down that her boss and her were having sex on their trips and locally.
> 
> To be honest, your marriage sounds so cold and unloving. Why stay in a sexless marriage were neither of you are getting your needs met? You should have left her years ago.


As I have said, it is difficult to judge the nuances from one biased, written account. But yes, although it is impossible to prove, I can say with certainty that she never crossed that boundary.

Likewise, the vast majority of our marriage and interactions are incredibly loving and caring - but maybe not in the traditional ways that most couples would understand. Again, hard to judge that from a single post that focuses almost exclusively on the negatives.
Having said that, there is indeed an inevitability to this. But what was needed was not to _leave_ but to _repair_.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

MaroonedDoc said:


> Thanks for the reply. I respectfully disagree. Yes we are unhappy about one specific aspect of our relationship - but in every other way what we have blows every other relationship out of the water. We've both been in the game long enough to know that we've found the right one (soulmates, without trying to sounding corny). Getting a divorce would be a total kneejerk, and guarantee we both end up unhappy. Despite our history and what she has done, there is no doubt in my mind that things can be fixed.


I respectfully think you are being naive' here.

She is desperate for affection and romance, just not with you.

If you are aggressive with her, and cut off each of her love attempts, you may keep her from having a physical affair and to stay married.

But, you are accomplishing this by being her daddy, and that bobby, and not her true love.

No wife who loves her husband would do what she did.

Yes, in those day-to-day activities you are very compatible.

But, not so with deep affection and loving intimacy (from her).
Plus, you seem too cool.

She is looking for these things (love and affection, validation) behind your back.

Whatever you finally settle with, you will have (likely) only succeeded in keeping her body close, but not her heart.

Give your marriage a year. 
If she does not come back to truly loving you, let her go.

I wish you luck.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

MaroonedDoc said:


> I couldn't care less about that - my wife's hot and it's that's my win).


Oh boy, Mate, you got a hot looking wife who is yearning for another hot blooded man.

*This was* *your inner thought reveal*....

Because she is hot and beautiful, you will tolerate her abuse.

This is not tenable.

Your cool water and her warm emotions are not compatible.

You blame her actions on her depression. 
I blame her depression on the marital dynamic that you two have.

She is inwardly trying to escape, you are trying to cling to hope.

This second co-worker affair partner, bloke.....

She is/was trying to monkey branch over to him.
Believe this.

Why? Because she is miserable in her marriage.

I am not excusing her cheating tactics. 
I am pointing out why you need to divorce her.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

SunCMars said:


> I respectfully think you are being naive' here.
> 
> She is desperate for affection and romance, just not with you.
> 
> ...


I actually think it is the other way round - she desperately needed my affection and affirmation, and I for years neglected that side of our relationship (we both did in our own ways to be fair). I ignored the warning signs for too long - that's on me. Would nobody who loves their partner do this? I think the statistics clearly show that that is nonsense - relationships are messy grey zones full - and when pushed too far, people can make the wrong decision. Just look around the forum here: a thousand stories, a thousand nuances. Although I hardly blame her at all for what happened, that doesn't mean I'm not hurt, upset and angry about it - but this is balanced out by a deep and reciprocal love and connection.
Her heart was never the issue, it's the body and mind that need to be given the right reasons for staying where they are.

A genuine thank you for the final sentiment.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

Your wife has serially cheated, three times( that you know of). She is not devoted to you. I doubt you can force her to have romantic feelings for you.
For one 5hing, you have been far too passive in tolerating all this cheating. It is extremely weak. I see no way she could respect you in light of this weakness.
And, amazingly, your perceptions of what has transpired are based on information coming from your wife, a known liar with low integrity. It is,naive at best, and somewhat pathetic. BTDT, BTW.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

Megaforce said:


> Your wife has serially cheated, three times( that you know of). She is not devoted to you. I doubt you can force her to have romantic feelings for you.
> For one 5hing, you have been far too passive in tolerating all this cheating. It is extremely weak. I see no way she could respect you in light of this weakness.
> And, amazingly, your perceptions of what has transpired are based on information coming from your wife, a known liar with low integrity. It is,naive at best, and somewhat pathetic. BTDT, BTW.


Thanks for the reply. As stated, I wasn't looking to discuss the underlying reasons, nor the way to handle this (every couple is unique in their own dynamic). But it is clear where you stand on the original question.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Sorry to tell you, but your wife has waited for intimacy as long as she cares to. Her attachment has transferred to another. The ship has sailed without you aboard and it isnt returning to your port.

Not sure how you failed her needs, but IMO it is too late to fix it. You are just roommates now, get used to it.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

MaroonedDoc said:


> Would you judge her intention was to keep things within the boundaries of an "emotional affair" (chat, fantasy) as she has claimed? Or would you say that the intention was there from the start to cross over into more intimate interactions (sexting, photos, etc.), or even end up with a full-on physical affair?


IMO she is primed and ready for a full on passionate sexual relationship. They both push one another’s buttons

She is mid-40s, prime time for a mid-life reappraisal of life. She gave you the prime of her life and now she is tired of waiting. Thirteen years is way long enough. Most wouldnt wait thirteen months.

We need to tend our gardens, or someone else will. And once the other begins plowing, its time to find another plot of ground.


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## QuietGuy (Aug 31, 2021)

To me she was clearly on the way to a physical affair. She had no problem crossing the boundary into an emotional affair. A physical affair is just 1 more boundary to be crosses. Your wife and her affair partner plainly told each other what they would like to do. This is just the build up phase. When the anticipation gets high enough there is only one way to satisfy the urge. 
When you confronted her you said she told him she needed more time. She should have told him that they had no romantic future and that all communication would have to be professional and all none work related communication has to end because she is committed to improving her marriage. This should be very concerning. She is on the fence and she has prepared a place to land on the other side.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

She's a cheater. When the going gets tough she seeks out other men. That's her personality, and you are choosing to put up with it.

She doesn't want to change that massive character flaw.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

QuietGuy said:


> To me she was clearly on the way to a physical affair. She had no problem crossing the boundary into an emotional affair. A physical affair is just 1 more boundary to be crosses. Your wife and her affair partner plainly told each other what they would like to do. This is just the build up phase. When the anticipation gets high enough there is only one way to satisfy the urge.
> When you confronted her you said she told him she needed more time. She should have told him that they had no romantic future and that all communication would have to be professional and all none work related communication has to end because she is committed to improving her marriage. This should be very concerning. She is on the fence and she has prepared a place to land on the other side.


Many thanks for the thoughtful and on-point response. I wouldn't say she had no problem crossing that first boundary - after all, she waited long enough to do so despite having tons of opportunities (others may question this, but I stand by that assessment). The emotional drain on her was also plain to see the morning she caved and fully committed to it. However, you are right that every border we cross, it becomes that much easier to take the next step. One can never fully come back from that position, and this is certainly a long term concern, even if we patch things up.
I feel the same way about the Friday afternoon post - she was clearly still on the fence then. Her behaviour since has changed dramatically, and this is worth mentioning. However, I will not rest easy until I see the type of message you describe - written in private. Even then, this will always leave some residual damage.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

@MaroonedDoc - I think you may be spending too much time trying to thinking intellectually about your relationship, why you are you and she is she, and coming up with reasons for why certain things will happen. Too much logic and not enough emotion. Or worse, emotion fueled by excessive logic. If you spend 10% of that effort on simply addressing her sexual needs, instead of why you have put those things aside because of this and that and the other reasons... you might get someplace.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

Livvie said:


> She's a cheater. When the going gets tough she seeks out other men. That's her personality, and you are choosing to put up with it.
> 
> She doesn't want to change that massive character flaw.


Look up the statistics. It's hard to get an accurate number, but online cheating and emotional affairs are staggeringly common. It is a line most of us will cross at some point in our lives, and it would be hypocritical to think "I would never do that".
Moving into sexual territory is another matter however, and actually getting physical is yet another step down the line. Each is harder to forgive and overcome.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

Casual Observer said:


> @MaroonedDoc - I think you may be spending too much time trying to thinking intellectually about your relationship, why you are you and she is she, and coming up with reasons for why certain things will happen. Too much logic and not enough emotion. Or worse, emotion fueled by excessive logic. If you spend 10% of that effort on simply addressing her sexual needs, instead of why you have put those things aside because of this and that and the other reasons... you might get someplace.


Wise words. I just want to point out the two aren't mutually exclusive. Yes I am a hyper-rational human being (and so is she in fact), and this is an important coping strategy for me.
But that doesn't mean that I am blind to the need for investing the emotional energy you mention. I'll keep you posted as to how that is going.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

MaroonedDoc said:


> Thanks for the reply. I respectfully disagree. Yes we are unhappy about one specific aspect of our relationship - but in every other way what we have blows every other relationship out of the water. We've both been in the game long enough to know that we've found the right one (soulmates, without trying to sounding corny). Getting a divorce would be a total kneejerk, and guarantee we both end up unhappy. Despite our history and what she has done, there is no doubt in my mind that things can be fixed.


Sir,
What I have to say isn’t pleasant: please realize I don’t know you abd don’t care to hurt anyone’s feelings, but here are my thoughts.

your whole post was about this:
You making excuses for your wife for:
Not having a sexual relationship with you
Not doing her fair share of household chores
Not being faithful to you
Not being a decent wife in any way, shape, or form.

You are a doctor. You are not a weak minded fool. You are letting your love for your wife to (100% unrequited love) cause you to see an angel through love goggles, what anyone else would see as the devil himself.

My suggestion is that you divorce your wife and move on. I’m sure you will quickly ignore my advice because it would break your heart to do so. Well just know this: Another man is having sex with your wife, it’s got nothing to do with how intelligent he is, he’s just not you. That’s his positive quality to her. Abd aa soon as she finds one unmarried that wants her for something other than sex (doubtful, she’s a lazy, disrespectful cheater and they know it), she’s going to leave you.

The only great marriage you have is in your mind, not hers, not anyone looking in from the outside because we clearly see your wife cheating on you, disrespecting you, ignoring you, and taking advantage of your live for her.

I’m sorry to tell you (very sorry) that your wife and your live for her is going to bring you absolutely nothing but pain henceforth.

See an attorney. Until you do, nothing anyone says or does can help you.

You are blinded by love and fear. I urge you to open your eyes and accept the pain abd move past her with your life.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

MaroonedDoc said:


> Look up the statistics. It's hard to get an accurate number, but online cheating and emotional affairs are staggeringly common. It is a line most of us will cross at some point in our lives, and it would be hypocritical to think "I would never do that".
> Moving into sexual territory is another matter however, and actually getting physical is yet another step down the line. Each is harder to forgive and overcome.


You’re wrong. The physical act doesn’t mean squat. It’s the building if emotions for the OM which at the same time kills her emotions toward you that is mist important.
You are an intelligent man. Think on that.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

jsmart said:


> Was this physical? Come on. You know deep down that her boss and her were having sex on their trips and locally.
> 
> To be honest, your marriage sounds so cold and unloving. Why stay in a sexless marriage were neither of you are getting your needs met? You should have left her years ago.


Quoted for truth


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

Evinrude58 said:


> You’re wrong. The physical act doesn’t mean squat. It’s the building if emotions for the OM which at the same time kills her emotions toward you that is mist important.
> You are an intelligent man. Think on that.



Much as I disagree with the gist of your first post (and my thankyou for dressing it up respectfully), there is truth to this specific statement.
However, the question is whether emotions keep building and those other lines get crossed. Now that I have intervened she has that choice to make. It would appear she has made the right one, but time will tell. And if she doesn't, then I would sadly have to admit you were right all along.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

MaroonedDoc said:


> Look up the statistics. It's hard to get an accurate number, but online cheating and emotional affairs are staggeringly common. It is a line most of us will cross at some point in our lives, and it would be hypocritical to think "I would never do that".
> Moving into sexual territory is another matter however, and actually getting physical is yet another step down the line. Each is harder to forgive and overcome.


Disagree.There are plenty of men and women who would never engage with another person outside the marriage the way your wife has and does.

I wouldn't, and I wouldn't stay in a marriage with someone who did what your wife did - without significant remorse, counseling, and changes on her part regarding the other man and the way she responds when her needs aren't getting met (SHE responds by cheating). 

It's not hypocritical (???), and it's offensive that you imply that most everyone would do what your wife has.

I guess you need to think that and tell yourself that in order to carry on. It doesn't make it truth, though.

Many women have integrity and morals that your wife does not have.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Their chat content just tells me that he's stimulating her mentally which is the thing that you say you don't do that she has said she needs. Now of course that doesn't make you the one having the emotional affair, but that's what she needs and to be quite blunt that's what most women need to feel sexual toward a person.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

Livvie said:


> Disagree.There are plenty of men and women who would never engage with another person outside the marriage the way your wife has and does.
> 
> I wouldn't, and I wouldn't stay in a marriage with someone who did what your wife did - without significant remorse, counseling, and changes on her part regarding the other man and the way she responds when her needs aren't getting met (SHE responds by cheating).
> 
> ...


I did not mean to offend, my apologies. However, I am above all else a realist and statistics don't lie. As always, there is a spectrum and people will fall somewhere along it.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Their chat content just tells me that he's stimulating her mentally which is the thing that you say you don't do that she has said she needs. Now of course that doesn't make you the one having the emotional affair, but that's what she needs and to be quite blunt that's what most women need to feel sexual toward a person.


Agree, and it is the quality she finds most attractive in me. My error has been to not give her that - acknowledged and bettering myself.
But it does make it very hard to judge the extent of her interest. As a sapiophile, that mental stimulation might suffice, and she would be able to justify it as a "milder" form of cheating - because it never got physical.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Random thoughts on your case follow.

First off, her probing around with this guy is not ok if she wants to maintain her relationship with you and you should make that very clear.

She mentioned “smart” and you mentioned the same thing and also older and in a position of power? Out of those things the only aspect that is mutable is position of power, are you ticking that box as well? Asking because maybe that is something that she is seeking, perhaps unknowingly, and you might be able to provide that.

Her language suggests she is lacking in passion/fantasy/possible mental stimulation. Again this is something you could possibly do.

Approaching this clinically is perhaps the wrong approach if she is looking for passion. You know her, how would she want you to react? My guess is she wouldn’t think much of your allowing her to continue to throw chum in the water for the sharks. If she responds to authority maybe you should make some demands of her and set much harder boundaries.

It maybe goes without saying, but I’m going to say anyway that if your wife wants to have sex and you’re not doing it then something is wrong there. You need to figure out what it is, physical, mental, combination of both? Get it treated and sorted out.


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## sideways (Apr 12, 2016)

MaroonedDoc said:


> That would be incredibly rash, counter-productive and instantly destroy something we have spent more than a decade building up. Not a chance, unless things spin much further out of control. She knows she is on notice and I need to see how she responds, genuinely, and without me being present.


"Something we have spent more than a decade building up"?

You mean like her cheating on you (more than once), lying to you, and making a mixed tape for another man about desires and intimacy and straight out telling this man she thinks about the things she wants him to do to her??

Dude wake the F up!!

You can't change what you won't confront.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

ccpowerslave said:


> Random thoughts on your case follow.
> 
> First off, her probing around with this guy is not ok if she wants to maintain her relationship with you and you should make that very clear.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the random thoughts, appreciated.

Yes I am in a "position of power" - this has been an issue at some point in our relationship, but not for the past 5 or so years.

It is also very clear what she wants from me, and what I need to improve (very much along the lines of your suggestions). I know this, and am acting on it - better late than never. Wish me luck.
And it may appear that I am approaching this "clinically", but that is because I am discussing a very difficult emotional topic with a group of anonymous strangers


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

sideways said:


> "Something we have spent more than a decade building up"?
> 
> You mean like her cheating on you (more than once), lying to you, and making a mixed tape for another man about desires and intimacy and straight out telling this man she thinks about the things she wants him to do to her??
> 
> ...


As I mentioned several times, the confrontation happened almost as soon as I found out, and has been ongoing. Very much trying to change this around.
But I appreciate the warning and support.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

sideways said:


> "Something we have spent more than a decade building up"?
> 
> You mean like her cheating on you (more than once), lying to you, and making a mixed tape for another man about desires and intimacy and straight out telling this man she thinks about the things she wants him to do to her??
> 
> ...


It feels like he has both himself and his wife following a script that he's uncovering, a destiny or fate kind of thing unraveling before him. It's his job to make sense of it, to understand it, and he's letting that get in the way of trying to change it. He bears no animosity towards his wife, nor responsibility for his own actions, because they're preordained to follow this script. It's an intellectual exercise in understanding the script rather than changing it.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

MaroonedDoc, below I have quoted a couple of your comments, and posted my replies.

1) “She has been contrite since - saying she's sorry, will do whatever she can to make me feel safe. This was her last message to him.

Friday
HER: Hiya, I am not ghosting you, but I need some time ok. Keep safe.
HIM: Of course. Fully understand. Keep safe too.” This was not her last text to him as she did not even pretend to end it. She only put it on pause as she asked for more time. This is not her doing everything to make you feel safe, because you are not safe. 

2) “Would you judge her intention was to keep things within the boundaries of an "emotional affair" (chat, fantasy) as she has claimed? Or would you say that the intention was there from the start to cross over into more intimate interactions (sexting, photos, etc.), or even end up with a full-on physical.” When she talks flirty to a single co-worker that she can see in real life, tells them how sexy he is, and talks about wanting to put her tongue down his throat, she is making it clear to him that she wants to take it physical. If what she has said so far to him does not make that clear to you, what more would need to be said? 



[/QUOTE]


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

Casual Observer said:


> It feels like he has both himself and his wife following a script that he's uncovering, a destiny or fate kind of thing unraveling before him. It's his job to make sense of it, to understand it, and he's letting that get in the way of trying to change it. He bears no animosity towards his wife, nor responsibility for his own actions, because they're preordained to follow this script. It's an intellectual exercise in understanding the script rather than changing it.


Respectfully, that's bollocks - but I guess impossible to see from the outside since I did not go into any detail about conversations and interactions over the past 2 days.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

MaroonedDoc said:


> Agree, and it is the quality she finds most attractive in me. My error has been to not give her that - acknowledged and bettering myself.
> But it does make it very hard to judge the extent of her interest. As a sapiophile, that mental stimulation might suffice, and she would be able to justify it as a "milder" form of cheating - because it never got physical.


Except I doubt he would be on board with that.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

TRy said:


> MaroonedDoc, below I have quoted a couple of your comments, and posted my replies.
> 
> 1) “She has been contrite since - saying she's sorry, will do whatever she can to make me feel safe. This was her last message to him.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Fair points, except in the mind of a sapiophile this may be sufficient. I should add that I know she has not logged into her Gmail account since sending that "holding message". My suspicion is she will deal with it while away.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Except I doubt he would be on board with that.


So do I - and whatever else, she has created a massive problem for herself at her workplace.
I anticipate I will have to step in there in the near future, which will get ugly.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

MaroonedDoc said:


> So do I - and whatever else, she has created a massive problem for herself at her workplace.
> I anticipate I will have to step in there in the near future, which will get ugly.


I realize that having to fake something like kind of flirting to keep her interested isn't comfortable, but it does make me wonder how you two got together to begin with. Is this something that just came naturally to you at the beginning of your relationship?


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I realize that having to fake something like kind of flirting to keep her interested isn't comfortable, but it does make me wonder how you two got together to begin with. Is this something that just came naturally to you at the beginning of your relationship?


It's not exactly uncomfortable, it's more that I'm shy in "showing off" certain traits if that makes sense. It's a personality clash in a way. She is super attracted to a part of me that I am used to hiding or downplaying.
And you are right that this was much less of an issue when we just got together - because in those first 1.5-2 years you are highly susceptible to the other's attractive qualities. A decade+ of marriage does rather blunt that.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Fair points, except in the mind of a sapiophile this may be sufficient. I should add that I know she has not logged into her Gmail account since sending that "holding message". My suspicion is she will deal with it while away.
[/QUOTE] Regardless of the details, the fact remains that she did not tell the other man (OM) that it is over. Your suspicions may be right that she will pick things up again when she is away, or it could be that she has already picked things up again using a communication method that you are not aware of. BTW, if this guy is as hot for your wife, it would be nothing for him to meet with her on her trip; planned with her or him just showing up.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

TRy said:


> Fair points, except in the mind of a sapiophile this may be sufficient. I should add that I know she has not logged into her Gmail account since sending that "holding message". My suspicion is she will deal with it while away.


 Regardless of the details, the fact remains that she did not tell the other man (OM) that it is over. Your suspicions may be right that she will pick things up again when she is away, or it could be that she has already picked things up again using a communication method that you are not aware of. BTW, if this guy is as hot for your wife, it would be nothing for him to meet with her on her trip; planned with her or him just showing up.
[/QUOTE]

For sure, except I know her extremely well, including her lack of managing anything related to modern technology. And she is unaware that I know of her "secret" Gmail account - she has no reason to use any other means of communication. If anything gets arranged, it will be through there, and I will know. I have no doubt that he would travel after her for a chance to make good on their chats.
I've already mentioned that where there is a will, there is a way. In our line of work, with constant travel and lots of interactions, there is zero way of policing a determined cheater.

I am actively working to "win back her mind", and have done everything I can (for now, barring the nuclear options) to stop things in their tracks. It is down to her now to demonstrate that her change is genuine.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

MaroonedDoc said:


> Look up the statistics. It's hard to get an accurate number, but online cheating and emotional affairs are staggeringly common. It is a line most of us will cross at some point in our lives, and it would be hypocritical to think "I would never do that".
> Moving into sexual territory is another matter however, and actually getting physical is yet another step down the line. Each is harder to forgive and overcome.


Please site your source that “online cheating and emotional affairs” are so common that “It is a line most of us will cross”. I do not believe this to be true. I think instead that you want this to be true, so as to more easily rationalize your wife’s actions.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

MaroonedDoc said:


> It's not exactly uncomfortable, it's more that I'm shy in "showing off" certain traits if that makes sense. It's a personality clash in a way. She is super attracted to a part of me that I am used to hiding or downplaying.
> And you are right that this was much less of an issue when we just got together - because in those first 1.5-2 years you are highly susceptible to the other's attractive qualities. A decade+ of marriage does rather blunt that.


Years of marriage also makes it where the other person can tell you're faking it. So I would say if you do make any efforts of that direction they should be moderate so that they don't arouse immediate suspicion and should be thought out and sincere.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

TRy said:


> Please site your source that “online cheating and emotional affairs” are so common that “It is a line most of us will cross”. I do not believe this to be true. I think instead that you want this to be true, so as to more easily rationalize your wife’s actions.


Final paragraph of this article: Emotional Affairs and Texting
First section of this article (with linked sources): Infidelity statistics: Data and trends revealed for 2020

Admittedly, the error bars are incredibly high - but the pattern is sufficiently revealing.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Years of marriage also makes it where the other person can tell you're faking it. So I would say if you do make any efforts of that direction they should be moderate so that they don't arouse immediate suspicion and should be thought out and sincere.


100% I'll admit my response may be a little strong right now, but it is genuine and being reciprocated


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## SRCSRC (Nov 28, 2020)

Have the two of you considered obtaining professional help to deal with your sexual incapability? To answer your initial question, there is a strong likelihood her behavior will lead ultimately to a physical relationship with this guy or someone else in the future unless significant work is put in by your WW. Whatever sexual disfunction is taking place in your relationship, it does not excuse her from searching for fulfillment elsewhere. You went through this scenario four years ago and, yet, you are finding yourself back to square one again. 

Typical advice given when a spouse cheats is that all electronic devices and social media accounts are to be made available to the betrayed spouse at a moment's notice. Your situation is different in that you have direct access to her email account without her knowledge. This is extremely valuable and will certainly give you a heads-up in real-time as to what she intends to do. 

You are in an unenviable position in that you will have to be an infidelity policeman for the foreseeable future. This is just a shot in the dark, but I suspect that if your intimacy problems are solved to a satisfactory extent, her present mindset will again return unless she does the hard work in getting to the bottom of why she is willing to risk her marriage in order to have these emotional affairs. It's not just the sex between the two of you driving her behavior regardless of what she says or what you think. 

What would I do if I was in your shoes? Being a betrayed spouse, I would most likely do the following: Watch her emails closely. When she makes the decision to meet the other man for coffee outside of work, I would blow this thing sky high. I would talk to the other man and tell him point blank to get his nose out of your marriage or he will find it rearranged. I would demand that your wife find another job immediately. No more Mr. Nice Guy. No more nonsense. Either she respects the marriage or it is over. It is as simple as that. 

Your situation is like watching a trainwreck in slow motion. Derail the inevitable immediately or you will be cleaning up the mess for the rest of your life.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I don’t know how to say this……You are without a doubt one of the dumbest smart guys we’ve had on here. You’re allowing your mind to deal with the cognitive dissonance to an extent you seem oblivious to.

things you won’t accept but are still true:

1) your wife is not a sapiophile. She’s just a woman. A cheater. But just a woman. That sapiophile crap is something you’ve made up to make yourself feel that she likes about you that makes you special to her. Although that’s one of your good qualities no doubt, realize that she already knows your good qualities, is married to you, and is no longer interested in them. She’s after other men.

2) you CANNOT play the “pick me dance “ and nice a wayward wife back. The only thing that works is a nuclear bomb of consequences. You’re unwilling to go there because you “wuv Her”…. That crap only works in the movies.

3). You think she’s only communicating with them via email…. Omg.
She is on to you, knows you’re on to her, is flaunting it and telling you about it, and you’re over analyzing the **** out of it.
you have no clue what she’s doing, who she’s communicating with, and haeven seen in her emails that she has no intention of backing off of this guy(s).

4). The weak, over analyzing, pick me dance crap you’re playing is going to get you a divorce. She’s going to divorce YOU. Because you are showing her that you’re a weak man.

I hope you will listen. If I were your friend, I’d hit you with a 2x4 a lot harder than this one. You need to wake up.

you have a serial cheating wife. It’s not ever going to stop. You should divorce her.

Doescshe ever return home abd immediately jump in the shower? Is she dressing differently? Is she going to the gym a lot more? I’ll bet the answer is yes.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

MaroonedDoc said:


> Final paragraph of this article: Emotional Affairs and Texting
> First section of this article (with linked sources): Infidelity statistics: Data and trends revealed for 2020
> 
> Admittedly, the error bars are incredibly high - but the pattern is sufficiently revealing.





MaroonedDoc said:


> Final paragraph of this article: Emotional Affairs and Texting
> First section of this article (with linked sources): Infidelity statistics: Data and trends revealed for 2020
> 
> Admittedly, the error bars are incredibly high - but the pattern is sufficiently revealing.


 The sites linked to not come close to confirming your


MaroonedDoc said:


> Final paragraph of this article: Emotional Affairs and Texting
> First section of this article (with linked sources): Infidelity statistics: Data and trends revealed for 2020
> 
> Admittedly, the error bars are incredibly high - but the pattern is sufficiently revealing.


 Sorry, but the links you shared do not even come close to being studies that confirm your claim that “online cheating and emotional affairs” are so common that “It is a line most of us will cross”. Again, you are rationalizing your wife’s actions.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

Evinrude58 said:


> I don’t know how to say this……You are without a doubt one of the dumbest smart guys we’ve had on here. You’re allowing your mind to deal with the cognitive dissonance to an extent you seem oblivious to.
> 
> things you won’t accept but are still true:
> 
> ...


So I should ditch her so she doesn't ditch me? That's kinda funny.
You've said your peace and I appreciate your honesty.

I'll work on solving this my own way.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

TRy said:


> The sites linked to not come close to confirming your
> Sorry, but the links you shared do not even come close to being studies that confirm your claim that “online cheating and emotional affairs” are so common that “It is a line most of us will cross”. Again, you are rationalizing your wife’s actions.


My request then would be for you to provide me with some solid numbers. Anything peer-reviewed out there?
If not, then my point stands and is neither proven nor disproven.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

SRCSRC said:


> Have the two of you considered obtaining professional help to deal with your sexual incapability? To answer your initial question, there is a strong likelihood her behavior will lead ultimately to a physical relationship with this guy or someone else in the future unless significant work is put in by your WW. Whatever sexual disfunction is taking place in your relationship, it does not excuse her from searching for fulfillment elsewhere. You went through this scenario four years ago and, yet, you are finding yourself back to square one again.
> 
> Typical advice given when a spouse cheats is that all electronic devices and social media accounts are to be made available to the betrayed spouse at a moment's notice. Your situation is different in that you have direct access to her email account without her knowledge. This is extremely valuable and will certainly give you a heads-up in real-time as to what she intends to do.
> 
> ...


Appreciate this thoughtful post and you sharing your personal experience.

The derailing has occurred to the extent that I am able, without going nuclear. Those options remain on the table.

Yes we have considered counselling, but never committed to it. Frankly, we both know where the problem lies and what needs to be done about it. Will that remain sufficient forever (assuming we fix things now)? I don't know - but neither does anyone else. For what it's worth, it is worth giving it every chance.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

MaroonedDoc said:


> So I should ditch her so she doesn't ditch me? That's kinda funny.
> You've said your peace and I appreciate your honesty.
> 
> I'll work on solving this my own way.


No, you should ditch her because she’s cheating on you, has done so in the past, and you know from her emails she’s going to in the future.

you can put me on ignore. And not see my posts on your thread. I have no desire to hurt your feelings. As you said, it’s your life and my opinion. Everyone has one and mine is free and possibly overpriced.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

MaroonedDoc said:


> I'll work on solving this my own way.


Then I'm confused. What is the purpose of this thread?


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

MaroonedDoc said:


> And she is unaware that I know of her "secret" Gmail account - she has no reason to use any other means of communication.


Except that gmail lets you see clearly when and from where your email has been checked. Don't assume you know everything about what she knows.

Also a comment about emotional affairs, I'm sure they are widespread and don't always consummate. But that's because location matters. It's super simple to have an EA with someone thousands of miles away, but unless they are semi-local, it wouldn't become physical.

A better more apples-to-apples statistic would be how many workplace EAs become PAs. I would expect that number to be pretty high.

These folks are not exactly statistic giants but interesting nonetheless:
"_A survey of 6,330 women showed that 92% of them feel that an emotional affair can quickly turn into a physical one. However, according to office romance statistics, only 8% of female employees believe this is not the case. _"









25 Workplace Affairs Statistics for Business & Pleasure


Forget bars and dating apps. It seems the office is one of the most common places to find a date – or so workplace affairs statistics tell us.




2date4love.com


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Here is my experience. I was married for a very long time to a man who was brilliant and successful and extremely attractive. He was the ultimate in who I’m attracted to and I did everything I could to make the marriage work but it wasn’t enough. He was a serial cheater and a neglectful husband and had a number of narcissistic traits — life was always all about him all of the time. Your wife is also a serial cheater and I think you’ll keep repeating some version of your situation over and over. Why? Because she needs attention and validation from other men. People like that, and my husband was one, are rarely content with the efforts of one person. Hopefully, I’m wrong and the two of you turn this around but my suggestion is never trust her.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

MaroonedDoc said:


> My request then would be for you to provide me with some solid numbers. Anything peer-reviewed out there?
> If not, then my point stands and is neither proven nor disproven.


How does it stand if neither proven or disproved? This makes zero sense and shows a bit of delusion.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

Openminded said:


> Here is my experience. I was married for a very long time to a man who was brilliant and successful and extremely attractive. He was the ultimate in who I’m attracted to and I did everything I could to make the marriage work but it wasn’t enough. He was a serial cheater and a neglectful husband and had a number of narcissistic traits — life was always all about him all of the time. Your wife is also a serial cheater and I think you’ll keep repeating some version of your situation over and over. Why? Because she needs attention and validation from other men. People like that, and my husband was one, are rarely content with the efforts of one person. Hopefully, I’m wrong and the two of you turn this around but my suggestion is never trust her.


Thank you for your reply and sharing your personal experience. I am not yet convinced that this is about needing attention and validation _from other men_ per se. She didn't get it from me, and that made her look elsewhere. She's looking for the exact thing she wanted from me - and is clearly conflicted about her choices. It remains to be seen if her need disappears when we put in sufficient effort and communication. Either way, thanks for your support.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

While you wish to see this as "in your control", it is anything but.

One can spend a lifetime trying to reinvent the "shiny things" to keep the attention of others... until we stop looking outside for the shiny that lacks within, everything we touch suffers.

Affairs of any type are an example of that harm.

Keep working on you, that is an honest effort yet still holds no promise that she will see the shiny you bring in your growth.

That is on her... keep it there while you offer the best you you can be.

In the end it may still not be enough, but if you can be ok with that you will find the peace you need when she chooses poorly and you have to make a choice yourself.

There are times when divorce can be a healthy way to love yourself more. I don't believe you are there yet, but there are times when you have to be prepared to lose it to keep it.

And sometimes the loss is what was meant, if our own desires weren't overriding the reality around us.

May you both see the shiny you bring together but please remember, only your shiny is in your control.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> Except that gmail lets you see clearly when and from where your email has been checked. Don't assume you know everything about what she knows.
> 
> Also a comment about emotional affairs, I'm sure they are widespread and don't always consummate. But that's because location matters. It's super simple to have an EA with someone thousands of miles away, but unless they are semi-local, it wouldn't become physical.
> 
> ...


You and I know this about Gmail - but I've lived with this person for 13 years and there's no way she does 
She may figure it out, but I'll always be10 steps ahead of her when it comes to technology.

Good point about the data. Getting solid information on this will be incredibly hard, but I remain of the opinion that it is much more widespread than many here seem to think.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> While you wish to see this as "in your control", it is anything but.
> 
> One can spend a lifetime trying to reinvent the "shiny things" to keep the attention of others... until we stop looking outside for the shiny that lacks within, everything we touch suffers.
> 
> ...


I wholeheartedly agree with your post. Thank you for sharing.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

Sfort said:


> Then I'm confused. What is the purpose of this thread?


Twofold. One, to get this off my chest. Two, to ask for opinions on her original intentions (based on the messages exchanged, and prior to my intervention).
I appreciate any volunteered opinions outside of this, but in my point of view some of the replies have been less than appreciative of the nuances in the situation - and consequently so have some of the proposed solutions.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

MaroonedDoc said:


> I did not mean to offend, my apologies. However, I am above all else a realist and statistics don't lie. As always, there is a spectrum and people will fall somewhere along it.


Even not taking issue with your contention( although I do), has it dawned on you that your wife has travelled this path three times( that you know of(( Most cheating goes undetected forever. You know of three with certainty. You may know the tip of the iceberg.)) 
How much tolerance do you have for this?
Do not overestimate your wife's s attractiveness such that you feel the need to put up with this. 
Two things in this regard: First, odds are you are decently attractive, as well, either physically, financially or intellectually ( maybe a combo platter). If so, as a middle aged man, you may, actually, have greater access to attractive women than she does men.
Second( and I have read about this, as well as observed it), it is very common for a betrayed spouse, in his or her traumatized and depleted state, to vastly overestimate the physical attractiveness of the cheater. It is incredibly common.
I point this out as I am somewhat mystified by the tolerance for abuse you have shown, possibly indicates desperation. 
Are you at all insecure about your ability to attract a woman of comparable attractiveness should you lose your wife?


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

MaroonedDoc said:


> Twofold. One, to get this off my chest. Two, to ask for opinions on her original intentions (based on the messages exchanged, and prior to my intervention).
> I appreciate any volunteered opinions outside of this, but in my point of view some of the replies have been less than appreciative of the nuances in the situation - and consequently so have some of the proposed solutions.


I think the collective wisdom on this board doesn't often find nuances to be a norm or even material to the behavior of adulterers. The behavior patterns of cheaters are so predictable there's even thread to document the "Cheaters Handbook", regardless of nuances in relationships.

Possibly your situation could be different, that's true. Many other betrayed spouses have believed so as well.

But your relationship could be the exception to the rules. From what you've said here it doesn't seem like it to me.
It seems more like your perception is cloudy and you are choosing not to consider possibilities beyond your own beliefs in spite of the advice here.

It is of course your propagative to do just that and I sincerely hope you are right. But I wouldn't bet on it.


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## ShatteredKat (Mar 23, 2016)

???
Have you read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" - easy to find via google
Suggest you read "Cheating in a Nutshell" - " " "

Suggest your reading this at least twice: How to Lose a Woman...Forever

Your wife is lacking in integrity and guilty of very loose boundaries.

My hunch is your path is not viable and you have already lost.

I fathom she doesn't hate or really dislike you, just doesn't have a "spark" for you any longer and is fishing for finding the spark again - and then you will get the ILYBINILWY speech. Given you are friends and room-mates - she will try to gently move on.

You best start getting your ducks in a row are be prepared for that eventually.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

MaroonedDoc said:


> So I should ditch her so she doesn't ditch me? That's kinda funny.
> You've said your peace and I appreciate your honesty.
> 
> I'll work on solving this my own way.


Yeah, your way has worked so well, historically ( 3 times, right?).


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

My husband and I saved our marriage despite some here telling me I was deluded for believing it was possible. He began what I felt was an emotional affair and wanted to leave me. I 180'd my selfish behaviour and gave up all my bad habits. He worked on his nice guy and codependent tendencies.

It maybe more than the sex at this point. For my husband there was years of resentment, buried needs and pain. Our sex life had actually improved dramatically 3 years before this crisis but he'd never told me how much pain he had experienced in the 12 years before that and that all came to the surface. I spent a huge amount of time learning to understand men better until it hurt me how much I had hurt him.

What you said about knowing which part of you your wife needs I would say this is key. We are all wonderfully multifaceted. A big part of our journey back to eachother was learning to express the suppressed parts of ourselves with eachother. Human beings long to be fully expressed. At the moment your wife feels like this other man draws out a part of her you have rejected. That is his only appeal - he allows her to be more fully herself. You can definitely do that for her too. The length of marriage is irrelevant. But you need to commit wholeheartedly not just short term to win her back that is desperately unfair to both of you. Commit to being fully you from now on and never allow yourself to become complacent again.

I would say there is a bias here towards divorce and start over. Which is the perfect advice for many people. But wasn't for me and may not be for you. It's worth sticking around. I have received some incredibly helpful advice here from those I agree with and disagree with.

My two cents fwiw  good luck! And trust your gut.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

Her intentions?

IMO she enjoys the fantasy with the OM. She enjoys his attention. He makes her feel young again. She implies she's interested in order to get his attention and compliments - and a cycle begins. The danger here is she is on a slippery slope. At some point she will either agree to meet him or the other man will look for another fish to play with.

Your wife probably feels she's in control and has no intention of committing adultery. That's where she's wrong. People are hot wired to bond emotionally and physically. She's playing with fire.

Her harmless online activity can escalate to a PA at anytime. It's just a bomb waiting for a trigger.

I suggest you both read: Not Just Friends by Dr Shirley Glass. 
It's an easy read and based on research vs just an author's opinion.
It involved couples (good people that did not intent to cheat) that experienced infidelity, including lessons learned and how they could have avoided a lot of grief.


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## sideways (Apr 12, 2016)

Openminded said:


> Here is my experience. I was married for a very long time to a man who was brilliant and successful and extremely attractive. He was the ultimate in who I’m attracted to and I did everything I could to make the marriage work but it wasn’t enough. He was a serial cheater and a neglectful husband and had a number of narcissistic traits — life was always all about him all of the time. Your wife is also a serial cheater and I think you’ll keep repeating some version of your situation over and over. Why? Because she needs attention and validation from other men. People like that, and my husband was one, are rarely content with the efforts of one person. Hopefully, I’m wrong and the two of you turn this around but my suggestion is never trust her.


OP. You need to read this post over and over and over again!! You came here seeking advice and if you take anything away from here it should be this. Based on some of your comments you won't.


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## Vaughan (Aug 18, 2021)

Openminded said:


> Here is my experience. I was married for a very long time to a man who was brilliant and successful and extremely attractive. He was the ultimate in who I’m attracted to and I did everything I could to make the marriage work but it wasn’t enough. He was a serial cheater and a neglectful husband and had a number of narcissistic traits — life was always all about him all of the time. Your wife is also a serial cheater and I think you’ll keep repeating some version of your situation over and over. Why? Because she needs attention and validation from other men. People like that, and my husband was one, are rarely content with the efforts of one person. Hopefully, I’m wrong and the two of you turn this around but my suggestion is never trust her.


Agreed. No matter what happens short-term, you will be back, with her 4th or 5th. Sorry.


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

OP, I will answer your title question.

Yes. If they go on any work trip, this is a strong possibility.

You seem to push back on many comments, so I won’t waste any time providing any advice other than you mentioned that you know what the problem in your marriage is. So, you either fix it and find a way for no work trips, or your concerns may be realized.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

MaroonedDoc said:


> My request then would be for you to provide me with some solid numbers. Anything peer-reviewed out there?
> If not, then my point stands and is neither proven nor disproven.


 When you make a definitive statement of fact, the burden of proof rest entirely with you.

Also, when you state that “If not, then my point stands and is neither proven nor disproven”, are you not saying that you are making an important decision based on a belief that is neither proven nor disproven? 

Your marriage is in real danger. You need to take immediate and decisive action before it is to late.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Here are my observations:

Your wife IS cheating on you. Maybe not physically but definitely emotionally and the intent for it to turn physical is very clear.

She is pushing the boundaries just a little further each time and it will (as you have said) inevitably end up in full blown and passionate sex. That is when she will start to fall in love with him and replace you in her heart completely.

Your "confrontations" are very obviously completely ineffective. They seem to have no effect on her other than to get her thinking about how to push the boundary a little further the next time.

You are overthinking the reasons why and her state of mind etc. She is bored with you, is feeling horny, and lust is gradually taking over and driving her to the more exciting and titillating dark side. Again a path that has an inevitable ending.

And finally, from your responses, you are not happy to entertain any of the harsher comments here - you seem to like the lightweight and ineffectual responses here by calling them "thoughtful". In short you do not really want to grab this bull by the horns and deal what is very clear in front of you. And that is why people are questioning what you really want from this thread.

Your wife will eventually screw somebody at work that she fancies (if she hasn't already done it). And somehow I think you will still be wondering about it.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

TRy said:


> When you make a definitive statement of fact, the burden of proof rest entirely with you.
> 
> Also, when you state that “If not, then my point stands and is neither proven nor disproven”, are you not saying that you are making an important decision based on a belief that is neither proven nor disproven?
> 
> Your marriage is in real danger. You need to take immediate and decisive action before it is to late.


It may be too late for the marriage , based on his snooping into her accounts and emails and she doesn’t seem to have a huge issue with that continuing. One needs to consider why that would be the case.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

Fly With Me said:


> My husband and I saved our marriage despite some here telling me I was deluded for believing it was possible. He began what I felt was an emotional affair and wanted to leave me. I 180'd my selfish behaviour and gave up all my bad habits. He worked on his nice guy and codependent tendencies.
> 
> It maybe more than the sex at this point. For my husband there was years of resentment, buried needs and pain. Our sex life had actually improved dramatically 3 years before this crisis but he'd never told me how much pain he had experienced in the 12 years before that and that all came to the surface. I spent a huge amount of time learning to understand men better until it hurt me how much I had hurt him.
> 
> ...


We do not know for certain that the OM only provides the intellectual stimulation that is alleged to be lacking. It might be true, but, clearly, there could be other sources of attraction . His wife has now cheated at least three separate times. That speaks volumes about her.
The original question was has it or will it become physical. It would appear from their emails, that in this latest affair, no, not yet. Who knows about the two previous ones? 
It seems pretty clear it was headed toward going physical, however. Which begs the question " isn't intent the real gravimen of the harm/betrayal?"
I think we tend to project our own biases toward tolerance of betrayal, and this poster, based on history, has a high one vs me. 
But, going forward, I wonder it these betrayals have not permanently denatured the relationship. They would for me, as I would know with certainty that my wife would betray me under certain circumstances. That would bother me, make me feel subordinate, as well as insecure. I could not live happily. 
But, to each his own.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

MaroonedDoc said:


> Thanks for the reply. I respectfully disagree. Yes we are unhappy about one specific aspect of our relationship - but in every other way what we have blows every other relationship out of the water. We've both been in the game long enough to know that we've found the right one (soulmates, without trying to sounding corny). Getting a divorce would be a total kneejerk, and guarantee we both end up unhappy. Despite our history and what she has done, there is no doubt in my mind that things can be fixed.


This is sounding increasingly like an “open” marriage that neither of you realized to be the inevitable outcome of non-existent/assumed/unpoliced boundaries. Your wife being susceptible to sexual attention from other men, while you’ve felt it ok to substitute intellectual stimulation for intimacy with your wife.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

MaroonedDoc said:


> some of the replies have been less than appreciative of the nuances in the situation


First, this place is the perfect place to get it off your chest. Regarding your comment above, many if not most new posters start here thinking that their situation is unique and that no one has complained of the identical problem. The fact is, most of these situations here are, for all practical purposes, identical to thousands of others already posted. The scenery changes a little, but the plot remains the same.

It's hard to hear the truth when it differs from what your things are. People will help posters with their situations, but they have to be willing to listen, and they have to be willing to take action. Our answers are not always right (as you can see from posters having different opinions), but you would be stunned to see how many times a new poster comes here in denial, gets pissed when he or she gets the truth, and ultimately learns that we were at least mostly correct in our determinations.

I hope this site is a help to you. It _can_ be if you want it to.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

Megaforce said:


> But going forward, I wonder it these betrayals have not permanently denatured the relationship. They would for me, as I would know with certainty that my wife would betray me under certain circumstances. That would bother me, make me feel subordinate, as well as insecure. I could not live happily.
> But, to each his own.


That is a good point. My husband showed me the messages himself and had never done anything like it before. I am not sure we would survive a second time. The pain is like nothing else. I take nothing for granted anymore which in some ways is good and in other ways hard.

The fact that the OP can read his wife's messages in real time will do more than anything we can say I suspect. It will either restore trust or demonstrate the marriage is beyond repair. 

It's dangerous though. I saw one guy on TAM move from absolute love for his wife to permanent distrust of all women after reading the affair in real time on their messages. He used the inside info to get a great divorce but I think it broke something in him :-/

I am so sorry you are going through this @MaroonedDoc you will find a lot of support here. I know the advice can feel overwhelming and I had to take a step back in the face of some of it but it's worth coming back.

People here genuinely care and would love to know how you are getting on.


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## olk (Aug 17, 2021)

Each betrayed spouse (BS), betrayed emotionally or physically, should make a decision to gain a new life or betrayer. I just want to point out that BSs shouldn’t blame themselves in any way or rationalize the behavior of a cheater.

The cheaters cheat not because there is a reason (problems in marriage, mental health, depression, childhood abuse, postpartum issues, etc.), they cheat because it is their morality. Cheaters cheat because they can and want to. They don't consider it as a sin and judge others by themselves. And they don't even notice that they are transgressing moral boundaries while texting, sexting to "just friends", sending them nude pics. This is beyond their understanding of what is good and what is bad. They don't betray themselves and don't realize that they betray others, because it is not inherent in their personality.

It's impossible to fight this when you're already in a relationship with a cheater. This should have been foreseen at the start of dating, but at that moment we were in a love fog and were not be able soberly judge our partner. Emotional and physical cheaters are adult men and women, so we can ask the question, whether is it possible to change their morality? Can anyone at this age (not being child) change their inner self through counseling, conversations, books, convincing to be a "good" person, parent, being treated her (him) like a queen (king)? It seems to me that it is needed a very strong shock to change someone's morality - not the sock of being caught cheating in the act or being confronted. 

About friends of opposite sex. Henry Miller once said that no matter what a man and a woman talk about, the main topic of their conversation is sex. All the posts about infidelity or examples in literature, cinema etc. show that if person has a close "just friend" of opposite gender this "friend" always becomes his (her) lover in the end. Emotional attraction turns into sexual attraction and the stronger it is, the sooner sex will begin.

So "just friendship" should have natural boundaries, and the most important boundary should be that such "friends" never spend time together alone unnecessarily, just the two of them. Long intimate conversations on the phone, intimate correspondence, secrets and so on are also unacceptable. And this is not a violation of personal freedom, but a generally accepted moral norm.

If people are married (or are in a stable relationship), they should be aware of their responsibility to their spouse (bf, gf), distinguish what is good and what is bad and when to stop before "friendship" becomes betrayal - emotional or physical. A "friend" should never have priority higher than a spouse (bf, gf) in any aspect. Otherwise, potential wayward spouse should be honest in feelings towards everyone and leave her (his) spouse (bf, gf). 

In all cases of cheating that I am aware of, two things help BS to overcome terrible circumstances. You have to put yourself in the first place in any case and think about how it will be better for you personally. Further ask yourself from the very beginning, is your wife the woman you want to spend the rest of your life with? Is it worth living with her, constantly snooping on her gadgets, arguing and confronting every day, tormenting yourself with suspicions of being cheated on? There's no difference for you whether it's an emotional affair or a physical one. An affair is a betrayal and that says it all.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> I think the collective wisdom on this board doesn't often find nuances to be a norm or even material to the behavior of adulterers. The behavior patterns of cheaters are so predictable there's even thread to document the "Cheaters Handbook", regardless of nuances in relationships.
> 
> Possibly your situation could be different, that's true. Many other betrayed spouses have believed so as well.
> 
> ...


So true...

He wants his marriage to work.
And, at all costs, seemingly, there is no amount of abuse that is too much.

Our OP values pretty things, beyond their intrinsic worth and their level of comfort.
To their detriment, many people never let go of their dreams.

Aye, that rose is pretty, oh my, beware the thorns when gripping her limbs.

She is on the hunt; I suspect his wife will, one day do the walk-away.


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## MaroonedDoc (8 mo ago)

Me culpa.

You were all right.

I was wrong.

I don't think there is a way back from this for us.

Devestated.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

MaroonedDoc said:


> Me culpa.
> 
> You were all right.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry to hear this. Stick around. People here weren't trying to make you feel bad. They were trying to help you. They will continue to help you through this devastation that you are currently facing. No one is happy that they were right.


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

MaroonedDoc said:


> Me culpa.
> 
> You were all right.
> 
> ...


You‘re in the right place to get the best advice on how to move forward.


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## gr8ful1 (Dec 3, 2016)

MaroonedDoc said:


> I don't think there is a way back from this for us. Devestated.


Please elaborate what happened. I’m guessing you checked her gmail and found proof of more?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

What happened, @MaroonedDoc ? Will you talk to us?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TRy said:


> Please site your source that “online cheating and emotional affairs” are so common that “It is a line most of us will cross”. I do not believe this to be true. I think instead that you want this to be true, so as to more easily rationalize your wife’s actions.


Those were my thoughts. Most of us won't cross that line.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I am sorry. It seems it didn't stop even though she said it would.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Very sorry Doc,
Nobody likes to see someone else hurting. 
keep your chin up and be strong. This is a horrible thing to bear. But 2 years from now, you’ll see this was what was best for you, as this woman is not that.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

MaroonedDoc said:


> Me culpa.
> 
> You were all right.
> 
> ...


Oh no! So sorry for the bad news. No one here wants to be right about this kind of stuff, but sadly many here have seen this play out over and over. Just know there are people here that will help you through whatever gets tossed your way.


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## SRCSRC (Nov 28, 2020)

Full disclosure: I am a betrayed spouse who went through hell with my cheating ex-wife. I learned a lot. I have a zero-tolerance policy for any shenanigans. I can only guess that you have become aware that the EA continues or that it is, in fact, a PA. This is her second affair that you know of within the last four years. Reclaim your dignity and self-worth by seeing a lawyer ASAP and file for divorce. If there is a glimmer of hope to save the marriage, the process can be stopped before it becomes final. But, honestly, why would you bother? You and your children should be all that matters at this point. DO NOT stay in a dysfunctional relationship for the sake of the kids. Yes, it is extremely dysfunctional. She must make a herculean effort at this point to save your marriage, in my mind. I wouldn't accept it. But I am not you. Whatever you have been made aware of, it can't be a total shock or surprise. Please seek solace with family and friends.

The sexual incompatibility issue is horse manure as a reason to cheat. There is obviously a powerful emotional component that exists with the other guy. It seems that at least half of these stories involve coworkers. It is a problem that has no real solution. Spouses can spend more time with workmates than with their partners and families. Feelings develop and it is not uncommon that someone strays. This is not comforting, but it is reality.

You have put up with enough. I urge you to get rid of her and find someone else. Life is just too short. You will end up being an infidelity policeman if you stay and believe me, that is not a way to live.

You are devastated and it is understandable. I know exactly how you feel. Keep moving, plan for your future without her and do it quickly. Concentrate on the next chapter of your life. Let your anger drive you at this point in time. This is a challenge that you must meet head-on. Keep moving and try not to wallow in your grief for too long. She destroyed everything. It is your turn to build a new life with someone who is worthy of your love and commitment.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

MaroonedDoc said:


> Me culpa.
> 
> You were all right.
> 
> ...


I'm really really sorry to hear report this doc.
I was hoping you were right.


Next advice is...don't leave this board.
Keep talking, we can help.

Take care of yourself.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

MaroonedDoc said:


> Me culpa.
> 
> You were all right.
> 
> ...


Perhaps you could sum up what you feel TAM was right about? What caught you by surprise?


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## ShatteredKat (Mar 23, 2016)

Doc:

Sad your last post - know that the folks here have listened to the music, seen the show, and walked the path. Our posts were, each with our own words, trying to convey to you what we perceived from what you typed for us to read. 

Now whatever it is that has come to the light, know that if you need a place to journal - this place can be that of a sort. And when you post your 
questions and worries, folks here can help digest same. 

In a odd sort of way, my thinking, seeing someone survive and thrive after infidelity helps us to also live a little bit better with our own history.
remember the cliche' - Misery loves company?
Most of us neither cheer divorce or cheer for reconciliation. We cheer for each betrayed to find their self respect, self confidence, courage to deal
with the heartbreak, the dissolution of our dreams and the loss of our partner whom we thought was for life "till death do us part."

We all survived the pain and agony of betrayal. The many different voices here will add points to consider as you walk your path. And also point
out the many pitfalls that await you - 

Whether you stay together or not, you will have to learn to live with the history you have and will continue to create. Can you do that?
You can - and you can thrive but it is you that must work to heal yourself. Will your spouse change and help you heal? You have to gamble that if you stay.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

MaroonedDoc said:


> I have considered this, and again this will depend on his reaction. If she cuts it off and he honours it, then I see no point pushing that. After all, he only reacted to her reaching out. Up to that point, it was just a dirty little fantasy in his mind (and frankly, I couldn't care less about that - my wife's hot and it's that's my win).


He owes you nothing. Your wife is the one that has betrayed your trust twice now. Any anger or other feelings go to your wife only. She has been the aggressor in both circumstances of cheating.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

MaroonedDoc said:


> I actually think it is the other way round - she desperately needed my affection and affirmation, and I for years neglected that side of our relationship (we both did in our own ways to be fair). I ignored the warning signs for too long - that's on me. Would nobody who loves their partner do this? I think the statistics clearly show that that is nonsense - relationships are messy grey zones full - and when pushed too far, people can make the wrong decision. Just look around the forum here: a thousand stories, a thousand nuances. Although I hardly blame her at all for what happened, that doesn't mean I'm not hurt, upset and angry about it - but this is balanced out by a deep and reciprocal love and connection.
> Her heart was never the issue, it's the body and mind that need to be given the right reasons for staying where they are.
> 
> A genuine thank you for the final sentiment.


So, is she taking care of your needs as well now?

Or is the cheater getting catered to by you while your needs still go unmet?


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

MaroonedDoc said:


> Much as I disagree with the gist of your first post (and my thankyou for dressing it up respectfully), there is truth to this specific statement.
> However, the question is whether emotions keep building and those other lines get crossed. Now that I have intervened she has that choice to make. It would appear she has made the right one, but time will tell. And if she doesn't, then I would sadly have to admit you were right all along.


By what you have said this is a one sided relationship.

You obviously love your wife even though things were bad do to BOTH of you.

You wife has gone looking for other men twice now. The last time thinking really had about cheating on you then doing so. You’re completely wrong thinking she cares the same for you as you do her. She has shown you that she can replace you tomorrow.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

MaroonedDoc said:


> Me culpa.
> 
> You were all right.
> 
> ...


I was so sad to read this this morning. Please get support around you. Family, friends, maybe a counsellor. If it helps keep posting here. Many people here have been through this and want to support you.


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

SRCSRC said:


> Full disclosure: I am a betrayed spouse who went through hell with my cheating ex-wife. I learned a lot. I have a zero-tolerance policy for any shenanigans. I can only guess that you have become aware that the EA continues or that it is, in fact, a PA. This is her second affair that you know of within the last four years. Reclaim your dignity and self-worth by seeing a lawyer ASAP and file for divorce. If there is a glimmer of hope to save the marriage, the process can be stopped before it becomes final. But, honestly, why would you bother? You and your children should be all that matters at this point. DO NOT stay in a dysfunctional relationship for the sake of the kids. Yes, it is extremely dysfunctional. She must make a herculean effort at this point to save your marriage, in my mind. I wouldn't accept it. But I am not you. Whatever you have been made aware of, it can't be a total shock or surprise. Please seek solace with family and friends.
> 
> The sexual incompatibility issue is horse manure as a reason to cheat. There is obviously a powerful emotional component that exists with the other guy. It seems that at least half of these stories involve coworkers. It is a problem that has no real solution. Spouses can spend more time with workmates than with their partners and families. Feelings develop and it is not uncommon that someone strays. This is not comforting, but it is reality.
> 
> ...


This is so right. It is tough but someday you will look back with incredulity on what you tolerated. Dysfunctional, disordered people, like your wife, seldom confine their abusiveness to just infidelity. 
One day, you may look back and marvel at the garbage to which you were subjected. Three episodes of cheating ( again, that you know of. That, alone, is an incredible amount of abuse.


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## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

@MaroonedDoc , I so wish we were wrong. Your pain is palpable and we feel it, because a lot of us have been exactly where you are now.

Know that no-one here is happy that we were right, but we are all ready to provide you with all the advice and support that we can.

This is a difficult journey you have been forced to embark upon, if you allow us, we can provide you with route-markers that we followed or missed on our journeys.

Strength to you @MaroonedDoc , don't try to walk this road alone because it is perilous and painful.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

I truly hate these endings.
When good hearted people get crushed right in front of our eyes.

People suck. I’m moving to the moon.


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## ShatteredKat (Mar 23, 2016)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> I truly hate these endings.
> When good hearted people get crushed right in front of our eyes.
> 
> People suck. I’m moving to the moon.


I hope Doc returns - I'm surmising that the mental processing he formulated has been blown to bits by whatever revelation that has occurred. It will take some time for him to get his gyros caged so he can ask or relate for help going forward here.

''BeyondRepair007" - After I "lost" a really smart good-looking 6 foot blonde girlfriend (really long time ago) - I was thinking I would move somewhere out West where you can't see any neighbors and smoke weed to try and forget my life's situation.


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## Tested_by_stress (Apr 1, 2021)

I'm wondering what the OP uncovered. When he wrote about the emotional affair with her boss, the first thought I had was that bosses don't tend to have "emotional" affairs. They tend to have "physical" affairs.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

Tested_by_stress said:


> I'm wondering what the OP uncovered. When he wrote about the emotional affair with her boss, the first thought I had was that bosses don't tend to have "emotional" affairs. They tend to have "physical" affairs.


She told him the first affair wasn't sexual. She also insisted the emails to the current OM weren't sexual not knowing he'd read them. They clearly were :-/


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## WhatNextDad (May 8, 2018)

I can relate to your situation because I recently learned my wife was secretly planning a weekend getaway to another city with her boyfriend. Just like you I was spying on her and I would ask her questions and pretend I did not know what she was planning. Like your wife she is intelligent and successful -- a university professor. I can understand the anxiety you must be feeling. When I Iearned she was seeing him I felt some panic and persistent anxiety. There were nights when I could hardly sleep.

My wife and I are compatible on many levels. We are both attracted to each other and the sex is good. Our kids love the home we made for them and there usually lots of their friends running around the house having fun or swimming in the pool. We even host many dinner parties. If I leave her I would need to break up a happy home for our kids. I think her problem is that she feels too constrained and that she can't get all the emotional fulfillment she wants from me. She is a sensory seeker and there is probably no single person who would be enough and it could be that monogamy is not her thing.

For many years she wanted to open up the marriage and one day I finally gave in at the midst of a joint therapy session. I am still trying to make peace with that decision but she seems happier than ever with our marriage and we hardly ever fight. Sometimes I think I can't do this and I should get divorced and other times I think if I had my own "hinge" girlfriend it may not be so bad. I still need to sort this out. 



> Would you judge her intention was to keep things within the boundaries of an "emotional affair" (chat, fantasy) as she has claimed? Or would you say that the intention was there from the start to cross over into more intimate interactions (sexting, photos, etc.), or even end up with a full-on physical affair?


To answer your question I think any person's will can be broken with enough time and pressure. Unless you threaten to leave her she will eventually have sex with him. All it takes is a few glasses of wine on a nice evening. At that point you will need to figure out if there are enough areas of your relationship where you work well that make it worth saving. Many couples function well with 80% of the things that are important and for the remaining 20% they are desperately seeking. If she wants to see someone else maybe you should too?


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

WhatNextDad said:


> I can relate to your situation because I recently learned my wife was secretly planning a weekend getaway to another city with her boyfriend. Just like you I was spying on her and I would ask her questions and pretend I did not know what she was planning. Like your wife she is intelligent and successful -- a university professor. I can understand the anxiety you must be feeling. When I Iearned she was seeing him I felt some panic and persistent anxiety. There were nights when I could hardly sleep.
> 
> My wife and I are compatible on many levels. We are both attracted to each other and the sex is good. Our kids love the home we made for them and there usually lots of their friends running around the house having fun or swimming in the pool. We even host many dinner parties. If I leave her I would need to break up a happy home for our kids. I think her problem is that she feels too constrained and that she can't get all the emotional fulfillment she wants from me. She is a sensory seeker and there is probably no single person who would be enough and it could be that monogamy is not her thing.
> 
> ...


Your story is so ****ed up.

You should have divorced your cheating wife instead of tucking your tail between your legs. Talk about staying married at all cost. Let me guess, you haven’t had anyone else after you were forced to open the marriage. She actually called your marriage a loveless one. She keeps you around so she can go on dates and you watch the kids.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

WhatNextDad said:


> I can relate to your situation because I recently learned my wife was secretly planning a weekend getaway to another city with her boyfriend. Just like you I was spying on her and I would ask her questions and pretend I did not know what she was planning. Like your wife she is intelligent and successful -- a university professor. I can understand the anxiety you must be feeling. When I Iearned she was seeing him I felt some panic and persistent anxiety. There were nights when I could hardly sleep.
> 
> My wife and I are compatible on many levels. We are both attracted to each other and the sex is good. Our kids love the home we made for them and there usually lots of their friends running around the house having fun or swimming in the pool. We even host many dinner parties. If I leave her I would need to break up a happy home for our kids. I think her problem is that she feels too constrained and that she can't get all the emotional fulfillment she wants from me. She is a sensory seeker and there is probably no single person who would be enough and it could be that monogamy is not her thing.
> 
> ...



If you were stupid enough to open the marriage on her side you better also be on your side a well...and I would date one of her friends that will close close her side fast.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

WhatNextDad said:


> I can relate to your situation because I recently learned my wife was secretly planning a weekend getaway to another city with her boyfriend. Just like you I was spying on her and I would ask her questions and pretend I did not know what she was planning. Like your wife she is intelligent and successful -- a university professor. I can understand the anxiety you must be feeling. When I Iearned she was seeing him I felt some panic and persistent anxiety. There were nights when I could hardly sleep.
> 
> My wife and I are compatible on many levels. We are both attracted to each other and the sex is good. Our kids love the home we made for them and there usually lots of their friends running around the house having fun or swimming in the pool. We even host many dinner parties. If I leave her I would need to break up a happy home for our kids. I think her problem is that she feels too constrained and that she can't get all the emotional fulfillment she wants from me. She is a sensory seeker and there is probably no single person who would be enough and it could be that monogamy is not her thing.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but you are the best doormat in the world.


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## Goo (9 mo ago)

To the OP, from my experience if they're aware you track an email account or a device they can just change communication methods. My now ex-wife of more than 10 years met a guy playing computer games. They've now been married about 10 years and had two more kids. I thought she was happy in the marriage - she definitely told me and everyone else she was. I hope your outcome is better than mine.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

MaroonedDoc said:


> Look up the statistics. It's hard to get an accurate number, but online cheating and emotional affairs are staggeringly common. It is a line most of us will cross at some point in our lives, and it would be hypocritical to think "I would never do that".
> Moving into sexual territory is another matter however, and actually getting physical is yet another step down the line. Each is harder to forgive and overcome.


Defend, explain, excuse, rationalize


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

MaroonedDoc said:


> So I should ditch her so she doesn't ditch me? That's kinda funny.
> You've said your peace and I appreciate your honesty.
> 
> I'll work on solving this my own way.


This being funny to you may be why you aren't opening your eyes and taking action.

Just flash back to this when she jumps ship.
Edited to add: with all your valuables.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Folks let's please not threadjack.


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## Wiseowl (Apr 10, 2013)

Your wife is cheating and you're rationalizing everything she says and everything you say to justify her affairs and your hope to have a workable marriage. 

You're asking advice but not really wanting to hear the hard truth. You love the idea of the wife you want but your wife is not that person. Depression/Mental issues are not an excuse to engage in an affair. Adults don't have emotional affairs that don't turn physical. I agree with others that you are being played by your wife. 
You also appear to be the one doing all the heavy lifting in he emotional aspects in your marriage. You can't work on any of this by yourself and your wife doesn't seem interested in working on things. She seems to be telling you what you want to hear and she knows what to say to make you feel temporarily reassured.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

She’s good at the mind numbing sex that makes him forget he’s not the only one getting it.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

ABHale said:


> Your story is so ****ed up.
> 
> You should have divorced your cheating wife instead of tucking your tail between your legs. Talk about staying married at all cost. Let me guess, you haven’t had anyone else after you were forced to open the marriage. She actually called your marriage a loveless one. She keeps you around so she can go on dates and you watch the kids.


Beyond ****ed up.


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## WhatNextDad (May 8, 2018)

Lostinthought61 said:


> If you were stupid enough to open the marriage on her side you better also be on your side a well...and I would date one of her friends that will close close her side fast.


One of her friends seems to be into me and I might ask her out. My wife insists that she will support what I do as long as I am safe about it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

If you want to discuss your life, please start your own thread. This is a thread jack on this thread.


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## bygone (11 mo ago)

One of her friends seems to be into me and I might ask her out. My wife insists that she will support what I do as long as I am safe about it.

Open marriages or different sexual pursuits are okay, but it's pointless for someone who has accepted an open marriage forcibly to defend it.

your marriage is not healthy, you are just someone who is afraid of losing the house and financial resources.

This is something I will not respect you about.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

bygone said:


> One of her friends seems to be into me and I might ask her out. My wife insists that she will support what I do as long as I am safe about it.
> 
> Open marriages or different sexual pursuits are okay, but it's pointless for someone who has accepted an open marriage forcibly to defend it.
> 
> ...


What you wrote is relevant and helpful, until you say you don’t respect someone for this or that

We see a lot of lack of respect for people here on TAM; I’m not sure what that accomplishes in terms of helping that person, or someone in a similar situation. Once judgment is pronounced, why should the not-respected person continue the conversation?

Better to try and understand someone else’s goals, or help them come up with some, and then, within that person’s personality, figure out how to get there.

Not saying there aren’t opinions and actions that don’t merit condemnation. Just not seeing it here.


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## bygone (11 mo ago)

What you wrote is relevant and helpful, until you say you don’t respect someone for this or that

We see a lot of lack of respect for people here on TAM; I’m not sure what that accomplishes in terms of helping that person, or someone in a similar situation. Once judgment is pronounced, why should the not-respected person continue the conversation?

Better to try and understand someone else’s goals, or help them come up with some, and then, within that person’s personality, figure out how to get there.

Kınamayı hak etmeyen görüşler ve eylemler olmadığını söylemiyorum. Sadece burada görmüyorum.

The purpose of my words is not to offend anyone, but you are right, I must admit that I exceeded the limits of respect on the issues shared here.


I apologize for my oversight.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

It appears that @MaroonedDoc has left us marooned. I hope he will come back and update us.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

Sfort said:


> It appears that @MaroonedDoc has left us marooned. I hope he will come back and update us.


Was just thinking the same. How are you doing @MaroonedDoc ?


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