# Non sexual touch and sex



## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

Some of you know I’ve been working on my sex drive for a while now due to several things, but another minor issue has come up and I’m not sure how to approach it. I miss non sexual touch. The only time my H touches me is when he wants sex (not on purpose, I guess). And I have pointed this out. He says he can’t help it because he might touch me in a nonsexual way and then immediately get turned on, not meaning to. 

My question is this, does my H have an obligation to control his sexual urges if I want non sexual touch occasionally? We can’t snuggle in bed, I can’t walk up to him and hug him or kiss him, he’ll get hard and then think I led him on and blame me in a joking way, so I just don't bother with trying to do that anymore. I am not a sex every night person, it’s more like 2/3 times a week now, but the other nights I’d like non sexual touch, maybe even once a freaking day.

How do I approach this with him? Or am I out of line, is this normal, etc??


----------



## Bluemoon1 (Mar 29, 2012)

I don't know what your history is however my take on this

My wife has said the same thing many a time, my reply has been (not now) chances don't come along very often, so I try to take them when they come. 

To be honest I have read that many low desire wives say the same thing, the answer is pretty simple


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

for me if I was getting love 2/3 times a wk It wouldn't be a problem.

do you guys cuddle after sex thats a good time to do some touching and talking (pillow talk)

maybe if he comments like your leading me on should be tackled playfulley. something like I'm just keeping you interested you sexy thing. or take it as a compliment that he finds you so arousing because as the years go by you might be longing to feel such desire from you man!


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I think what Bluemoon is saying is that for a sex starved man, non sexual touch is an exercise in frustration. When I'm sex starved, it's all I can think about. Work suffers, sleep suffers, and any contact will remind me that I'm sex starved because it's always right at the surface. If I'm sexually satisfied, then I actually enjoy non-sexual touch. Sometimes I even prefer it, as long as I don't have in the back of my mind that it's going to be weeks before I get any.

That said, if you're doing it 2/3 times a week that's a pretty far cry from starvation. At least from my vantage point. But something just doesn't seem to add up. I just can't imagine thinking that I was being led on unless I was constantly being denied sex.


----------



## livnlearn (Mar 5, 2012)

Wish I knew the answer to this. I rarely hug my husband back, like full-body hug, unless I want to have sex right then or at least have the time/desire to be groped for the rest of the day. Snuggling in bed, back rubs, even holding hands, all seem to signal that I want to have sex. As you well know though, this isn't always the case. Wish I knew the solution....


----------



## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

chillymorn said:


> for me if I was getting love 2/3 times a wk It wouldn't be a problem.
> 
> do you guys cuddle after sex thats a good time to do some touching and talking (pillow talk)
> 
> maybe if he comments like your leading me on should be tackled playfulley. something like I'm just keeping you interested you sexy thing. or *take it as a compliment *that he finds you so arousing because as the years go by you might be longing to feel such desire from you man!


I knew I would get some of that by asking the question and I really do take it as a compliment that he desires me  Sometimes it's just tiring because I really just want a hug.

You know, we don't cuddle after sex, in fact he rolls over and generally falls asleep pretty quick. I miss that too now that I think about it. 

I'm just wondering if I should ask him to put more effort into just trying to be intimate with me in a non-sexual way... Like sex isn't an option for a night, see what it's like, but I'm guessing he won't see the need


----------



## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

WorkingOnMe said:


> But something just doesn't seem to add up. I just can't imagine thinking that I was being led on unless I was constantly being denied sex.


Maybe led on isn't the word... He thinks that if I touch him, give him a big hug, etc... that I'm horny or something and in turn he thinks that's giving him the green light to pursue it further. Truth be known, and probably why he get's excited when I make a move, albeit slight and non sexual in my mind, he thinks my drive is coming back. Unfortunately, that is not the case, yet.


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Cherry said:


> My question is this, does my H have an obligation to control his sexual urges if I want non sexual touch occasionally?


Yes of course he does.
I get hot almost every time I touch my wife.

He`s a human male not a Bonobo, he is capable of higher thinking than physical urges.(I hope)

The vast majority of my physical closeness/touching with my wife is non-sexual it`s what keeps us close.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If I were getting "it" 2 or 3 times weekly, I'd be pretty content to snuggle or give backrubs. I guess it might depend upon how long I'd been denied sex. If someone had grown accustomed to living in starvation, it'd be hard, maybe impossible, for them to just ignore a table full of food. Gradually, when they learn that each meal won't be their last, they can learn to settle down.


----------



## Bluemoon1 (Mar 29, 2012)

Cherry said:


> Maybe led on isn't the word... He thinks that if I touch him, give him a big hug, etc... that I'm horny or something and in turn he thinks that's giving him the green light to pursue it further. Truth be known, and probably why he get's excited when I make a move, albeit slight and non sexual in my mind, he thinks my drive is coming back. Unfortunately, that is not the case, yet.


There is your answer, your drive might have gone but his has not


----------



## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

Bluemoon1 said:


> There is your answer, your drive might have gone but his has not


so do you think it's too much to ask that he might want to help me get mine back by agreeing to touch me non-sexually occasionally, or controlling his urge to bone me right then and there, or walking away frustrated because he thought I hugged him because I was horny? Perhaps help me feel like more than a piece of meat? 

We've ramped up how often we have sex, it was once a week a few months ago, and I have consciously made sure I don't just say "no" for the heck of it... and it's up to 2/3 times a week. So I'm trying, I just need some help from him and don't know how to ask him or even if I should. I do not want to hurt his feelings, but it's tiring when I know I am trying the best that I can and all I freaking want is a hug... lol... Okay, not quite that simple I guess.


----------



## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

I think you need to make it clear what times are "sex free time zones" (tm). For my wife and I it's kind of an unwritten rule, but we both know when those times are.

I just love touching my wife, so I'd say the vast majority of the time I'll just go up to her and give her a kiss (which is often times accompanied by caressing my 3 favorite spots: shoulders, neck and lower back).

We just know that if we are standing outside the bedroom kissing, that it's not an invitation to bed. Sometimes I will ask her to join me... but in general I know when sex is an option and don't bother asking when it's not the right time.

Will your husband touch you non-sexually just any old time he sees you? I know you said it leads to him wanting intercourse... just asking if his coming up to you is common or not.


----------



## Bluemoon1 (Mar 29, 2012)

Cherry said:


> so do you think it's too much to ask that he might want to help me get mine back by agreeing to touch me non-sexually occasionally, or controlling his urge to bone me right then and there, or walking away frustrated because he thought I hugged him because I was horny? Perhaps help me feel like more than a piece of meat?
> 
> We've ramped up how often we have sex, it was once a week a few months ago, and I have consciously made sure I don't just say "no" for the heck of it... and it's up to 2/3 times a week. So I'm trying, I just need some help from him and don't know how to ask him or even if I should. I do not want to hurt his feelings, but it's tiring when I know I am trying the best that I can and all I freaking want is a hug... lol... Okay, not quite that simple I guess.


Well in that case just be honest with him then, perhaps he is after some spontaneous sex, remember that men are more easily aroused than women, if your up to 2/3 times a week he should not have to much of a problem with you saying no


----------



## cent130130 (Nov 6, 2011)

It sounds to me like you are making an honest effort to meet his needs, and you should be applauded. Perhaps he ought to read the pages of TAM to see how fortunate he is. I am on the same page as the others, I would be very fulfilled with a 2-3X per week schedule, and be willing to do just about anything my wife wanted. 

I think it is a mistake, however, for women to see themselves as a "piece of meat" just because their husbands touch them in an intimate manner. I see it as analogous to the wife wanting to spend time in meaningful conversation. How would the women react to the suggestion that it is unreasonable to expect that their husband's should react in an understanding, positive manner to their wife's desire for meaningful conversation? I think husbands and wives need to work harder to recognize and understand that we don't communicate in the same way and don't always have the same needs and priorities. As for me and my wife, I would happily give my wife a foot massage every day (or whatever non-sexual contact met her need), even if it doesn't lead anywhere, but she's just not interested...


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Cherry said:


> I miss non sexual touch.


I'm probably just a thick-headed male, but I honestly don't understand that concept at all.

Non-sexual touch to me is either a dry little peck on the cheek like I'd give my mother or my sisters or a rough man-hug like I'd give my father or my brothers.

If the touch would be inappropriate with anyone else but a spouse, (e.g. You mentioned snuggling in bed, hugging and kissing) then to me, it is hardly non-sexual in nature. Even rubbing my wife's shoulders will slowly do it for me although there are certainly shorter routes to arousal. 

Having said that though, you would think that if more touch equals more sex *in the long run*, (As in over the course of a week or a month) then a man would be pretty short-sighted to think that every erection should lead to sex.

So I don't think you're out of line at all.


----------



## iGuy (Apr 23, 2012)

Good replies here. I'll reply from my side - since I don't know anything about your past.

My wife used to have sex with her ex boyfriends and brag to me (without me wanting to know!!!) about how good it was, how she was so often horny with them.

We have sex - when all is going WELL - maybe once every 2 months. Last time was 23rd of March, so not quite 2 months (I'm just being an ass).

Point is, she LOVES non sexual touch. TO me, as an attention starved hungry dog, I get an erection when she even just smiles at me. 

I don't understand the idea of non sexual touch. I don't non sexual (or sexual) touch any of my colleagues or female friends. 

For me touch IS sexual, since you're entering someone's personal space bubble.

But I guess my view on stuff is just daft. It's not like I have a picture perfect marriage!


----------



## livnlearn (Mar 5, 2012)

iGuy said:


> For me touch IS sexual, since you're entering someone's personal space bubble.
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> ...


----------



## iGuy (Apr 23, 2012)

livnlearn said:


> iGuy said:
> 
> 
> > For me touch IS sexual, since you're entering someone's personal space bubble.
> ...


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

livnlearn said:


> So when the girl at the hair salon shampoos your hair (if you get that done) and massages your scalp, do you find that sexually arousing?


I have a friend about ten years older than me who recently had a heart attack. He was rushed to the hospital and they performed an angioplasty that same night.

In the middle of the greatest pain he had ever experienced in his life, he was catheterized by an attractive young nurse. He said he enjoyed it and that's how he knew he wasn't going to die. 




livnlearn said:


> not being sarcastic...just wondering if there are some people who because of upbringing or whatever, really are unable to just experience the pleasure of touch without it being sexual.


Upbringing? How about gender?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Conversation goes something like this:

Just as you need sex to feel loved, I need some amount of touch without sex to feel loved. And it ruins the idea of it when you "jokingly" talk about being turned on. Because you aren't joking, you are turned on. I am sorry that it is a bit frustrating for you I don't have a higher sex drive. Trust me, a bit frustrating for ME, you don't have a LOWER sex drive. 

And when you jokingly make comments - that I know are true, it ruins whatever good feeling I got from the hug, touch, etc.

If he gets it - STOP - if he needs hammer to the head this is it:
Right after sex I would never jokingly say - what a relief, now I get tomorrow night off. 




Cherry said:


> Some of you know I’ve been working on my sex drive for a while now due to several things, but another minor issue has come up and I’m not sure how to approach it. I miss non sexual touch. The only time my H touches me is when he wants sex (not on purpose, I guess). And I have pointed this out. He says he can’t help it because he might touch me in a nonsexual way and then immediately get turned on, not meaning to.
> 
> My question is this, does my H have an obligation to control his sexual urges if I want non sexual touch occasionally? We can’t snuggle in bed, I can’t walk up to him and hug him or kiss him, he’ll get hard and then think I led him on and blame me in a joking way, so I just don't bother with trying to do that anymore. I am not a sex every night person, it’s more like 2/3 times a week now, but the other nights I’d like non sexual touch, maybe even once a freaking day.
> 
> How do I approach this with him? Or am I out of line, is this normal, etc??


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I don't "make" a touch a sexually arousing experience. If my wife holds my hand, I'm at least a little turned on. It's not unreasonable to ask your husband to not touch you in certain ways on some occasions but what turns him on turns him on. Be glad it's you and not some other woman.


----------



## livnlearn (Mar 5, 2012)

iGuy said:


> livnlearn said:
> 
> 
> > I cut my own hair
> ...


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

> so when the girl at the hair salon shampoos your hair (if you get that done) and massages your scalp, do you find that sexually arousing? :scratchhead:


Depends, is she wearing a low cut cleavage enhancing blouse?




> not being sarcastic...just wondering if there are some people who because of upbringing or whatever, really are unable to just experience the pleasure of touch without it being sexual.


I`m finding this thread interesting for that reason too.
There do seem to be a couple of guys here who don`t differentiate between the two.
Makes me a bit more understanding/empathetic to some of the complaints some women have around here.


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I`m starting to wonder what percentage of sexless marriages have husbands who don`t differentiate sexual and non sexual touching.

I see a very small pattern emerging in this thread.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

tacoma said:


> I`m starting to wonder what percentage of sexless marriages have husbands who don`t differentiate sexual and non sexual touching.


I guess it depends on how 'non-sexual' is defined. :scratchhead: It appears to me that some define it simply as touch with no _expectation_ of sex. 

I would say that the term is poorly coined if that is the case because it injects subjectivity in the form of intent into the definition. 

Touch is sexual in nature when gender differences define its propriety. Even ballroom dance has very clear sexual connotations (i.e. I don't know about anyone else, but I sure as hell wouldn't dance with another man.) even though there is no expectation of sex associated with it.


----------



## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

Cherry said:


> My question is this, does my H have an obligation to control his sexual urges if I want non sexual touch occasionally?


I really dislike "obligations" when it comes to pleasing one's partner. I don't like it when a woman sees herself as "obligated" to "put out". Equally, I don't like it when a man sees himself as obligated to provide for the emotional needs of his wife. 

So no, I don't think he has an obligation to nurture your emotional self. I just think he's a damned fool not to.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes. Me to. 

I draw some bright lines here. 
- I initiate a lot of very intimate - non-sexual touches. The full body hug I do from behind in the kitchen is not sexual. It feels REALLY good because she melts back into me. Love that. If she ever saw me hug another woman like that - she would quite rightly go instantly ballistic. 
- We spoon in bed a LOT - USUALLY after one of us has said "Lets spoon and watch tv which means we are not having sex. And usually that is me as that is the guilt free pass for the night. 
- She initiates a lot of non-sexual touch - I love that to

There is no "teasing" though. She doesn't do even lightly sexual stuff unless she wants to have sex. And she knows that I don't mix the two because I realized it was best to separate non-sexual affection from sex - for me. As the LD partner she gets to do whatever she wants. And that seems fair to me. Meaning she can turn affection into sex. Reason I don't is I don't want to add to the long list of women who are anxious when their H hugs them, because it is almost always the first step in his initiation. Since I seek to provide comfort, and a zone of warmth and love, I prefer to leave anxiety triggers out of the equation. If she was stiff when I hugged her, instead of melting into me, I would feel rejected.....







tacoma said:


> I`m starting to wonder what percentage of sexless marriages have husbands who don`t differentiate sexual and non sexual touching.
> 
> I see a very small pattern emerging in this thread.


----------



## Pandakiss (Oct 29, 2010)

In our marriage we communicate everything. If I want a hug then I say "hugs" if I just go for it than he is free to touch. 

I don't understand "non-sexual" touching. I'm a hugger and I don't think hugging other people is sexual. With my husband it always sexual. I married him live with him so any touch is sexual. 

If I feel like it I will just touch or whatever his penis, he will also just go into my shirt or slap my ass. We have a sentance that is understood, "don't start nothin you ain't gonna finish". 

If he or I stop then it's fine and no hurt feelings. Someone started a thread earlier about "un-tam like things" I'm not a mind reader you have to tell me you want action. 

I guess it's almost like asking, but without asking. My husband will say sooo and run his hand down my arm and I know he wants a bj. Sometimes he will just flat say HEY!!! and I get my butt in gear. 

We just can't "guess" if the other person is in the mood. Maybe sometimes. But not 100% of the time. I like hugs so if I want one I'm gonna "hug" and that's what I want. I had to state this out loud to him a few times, but he got it. 

I will just say "brush my hair" and hand him the brush, he will let me know if he is going to want sex or a bj later on (as in this will turn him on). If I just don't feel like it I will take the brush back, and no hurt feelings.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ahhhh

The special cases. Context is everything. If she is starving you, OF COURSE you get super turned on by any type of touch. In that case the message is different: Babe you need to recognize that at a decent frequency I would love all this touch. In our currnetly sexless marriage I get instantly turned on and then - nothing hapens - that is not acceptable to me. 

I have one exception to this. We both give and get great back massages......



iGuy said:


> Good replies here. I'll reply from my side - since I don't know anything about your past.
> 
> My wife used to have sex with her ex boyfriends and brag to me (without me wanting to know!!!) about how good it was, how she was so often horny with them.
> 
> ...


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I am still seeing a lot of people who consider mixed gender touching as sexual by definition.

I just can`t fathom that, it`s weird but I can touch my wife one time one way with no sexual intent at all and then touch her in physically the same way but with extreme sexual intent.She just seems to know the difference and this "touching" problem has never "touched" us.


I mean I kiss my daughter on the forehead when I leave for work, I kiss my wife in the same manner on my way out the door.
It would seem some here would say this has sexual connotations regardless of intent but I would argue it`s the intent that causes it to be sexual or not.

If I`m holding her hand walking down the street is that sexual?

I can touch my wifes breasts with no intent to have sex or even be sexual. Like most men breasts just amaze me, they`re soft yet firm at the same time, they fit perfectly in your hand.


Maybe I`m the weird one..I dunno.


----------



## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

tacoma said:


> I`m starting to wonder what percentage of sexless marriages have husbands who don`t differentiate sexual and non sexual touching.
> 
> I see a very small pattern emerging in this thread.


Our marriage was largely sexless for the first 12 years, and I have always touched my wife.

Most of the time non-sexually because I've always taken great pleasure in the feeling of her skin on my finger tips.

I guess some of this is how you define non-sexual. For me I'd define that as touching that doesn't ever intend to lead to sex, nor does it involve genitals (or right next to them).


----------



## happyman (Apr 30, 2012)

Hi everyone, I'm new here and just thought I'd chime in. I think mixed gender touching generally has a sexual subtext because that's how we are wired biologically. Context obviously changes how sexual it is...shaking my female boss's hand at work when I was introduced was not very sexual but if we were at a bar and drinking it might have been a different story. But I did quickly assess whether or not I thought she was attractive and I think we always automatically size up other people for if they would be potential sexual partners. And when we aren't having sex regularly with our spouse we men generally view things more sexually than they might otherwise be. 

And isn't that the general danger of close male/female friendships? There's always that sexual subtext...we can choose to act or not but biologically we are just wired that way. I do think that it is disrespectful if he's always pressuring you for sex and that's what it sounds like. I know I had to learn to control myself as well as learn to read my wife's body language when she just wanted a hug and nothing more. It was hard work and frustrating for me though.


----------



## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

happyman said:


> I know I had to learn to control myself as well as learn to read my wife's body language when she just wanted a hug and nothing more. It was hard work and frustrating for me though.


Why is it hard work and frustrating to hug your wife without expecting it to turn into sex right then? Or to give her a kiss? Or to hold her hand? Why is that so hard?

It's called being affectionate. Did people who have trouble with this grow up in households that weren't affectionate or something? Never saw your parents hug or kiss just because, and without running into the bedroom? Never saw them snuggle on the couch watching tv?


----------



## happyman (Apr 30, 2012)

My wife is hot and turns me on just by being in the room. I have to pay attention to her needs and ignore my desire to carry her upstairs and throw her on the bed. This is not to say I don't act affectionately towards her, there's just some work involved because I have to focus on context and how she's feeling. I do all that gladly but it was something I had to learn. They don't teach this stuff in school! Lol. Why does that seem wrong? I don't think this is pathological at all. Its just learning to manage your desires.


----------



## Pandakiss (Oct 29, 2010)

norajane said:


> Why is it hard work and frustrating to hug your wife without expecting it to turn into sex right then? Or to give her a kiss? Or to hold her hand? Why is that so hard?
> 
> It's called being affectionate. Did people who have trouble with this grow up in households that weren't affectionate or something? Never saw your parents hug or kiss just because, and without running into the bedroom? Never saw them snuggle on the couch watching tv?



My husband and I grew up in similar and opposite households. We both came from single moms but my mom was affectionate his was cold. 

I think we both have a need to touch and be touched. I had a couple of friends who had 2 parent households, I did see the handholding and the giggling. I did see the "looks" exchanged, and us kids booted out the door with freezie pops. 

I was aware of the long lay ins on Saturdays/Sunday's. Some kept condoms in the bathroom and porn in the bedroom. What I saw was single moms bitter, man hating shrews. 

My mom is a big fan of "marriage is slavery". She had 2 parents, and has what I now come to call a sick fvck relationship with her dad. He died from cancer, and she never got over it. She hates men and sex, and it took her years to accept my husband. 

She hated him for whatever twisted reasons she had. She and I were very open about sex...but never said anything about marriage. Men's only use was their sperm. 

She and I had polar different up bringings. My grandmother is German and rather cold. I love my husband and I love to touch him all the time. I want him to touch me all time. What's wrong with love taps. 

When my husband leaves for work or if I visit him at his job, we don't kiss but touch cheeks and I touch his arm.


----------



## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> Yes. Me to.
> 
> I draw some bright lines here.
> - I initiate a lot of very intimate - non-sexual touches. The full body hug I do from behind in the kitchen is not sexual. It feels REALLY good because she melts back into me. Love that. If she ever saw me hug another woman like that - she would quite rightly go instantly ballistic.
> ...


What I bolded could not happen in our bed  lol He would get hard quickly and there would be something poking me in my butt, and he turns into an octopus and if I say no, he backs off 100%, no snuggling at all, he rolls over on his stomach or his side facing away from me. 

I want what you and tacoma describe. That full body hug you describe, that can't happen either... his hands find there way to my butt or around to my vag or he simply starts rubbing me all over and if I'm receptive to his hug, he thinks that means I'm horny and he's going to score... When no, I just want that hug right then and there... If I'm not receptive to his hugs with groping, he gets aggravated. 

happyman -- You say it's something you had to learn.... Is it because your wife pointed it out or did you pick up on it yourself? 

You know, we were in the kitchen last night and he had to reach around me to put something up and he was close enough to give me that full body hug from behind that MEM and tacoma speak of  I wanted that. But he didn't. Why not? Was it because we were cooking dinner and he knew there was no chance of sex, so why bother being affectionate with me? 

I know there was no affection in his household growing up and I understand that, but I know he can be affectionate without sex, I've seen him do it and when I hug him back or something, I don't want a comment like "oh yeah, wanna go to the room" because I have to answer that question and I don't want to go to the room right then and he takes that as rejection, even though we may have had sex the night before. 

I am trying, but I am still missing something.


----------



## Mr_brown (Oct 17, 2011)

If I were cuddling kissing or massaging another woman my wife would think it was sexual.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

norajane said:


> Why is it hard work and frustrating to hug your wife without expecting it to turn into sex right then? Or to give her a kiss? Or to hold her hand? Why is that so hard?


I'm struggling to come up with an analogy that would fit. I'll probably fail, because at the end of the day, I don't understand the female perspective nearly as well as I would like to. (But I do try...)

How about this:

In the morning you and your husband talk in general terms about going out for dinner and drinks that evening. No definite arrangements are actually made, but you both agree it would be fun. You go to work and have a day from hell. It's so hectic that you miss lunch. As the afternoon wears on and the gnawing, empty feeling in your middle gets more and more unpleasant, you start looking forward to eating out as more than just a possibility.

Evening comes and your husband picks you up from work. He seems to be driving in the direction of your favorite restaurant, but when you get there, he drives right by it without stopping. You say, "I thought we were eating out. I'm really starving" and he replies, "Well I'm not really hungry tonight"

The parallel here should be obvious. In a healthy relationship where sexual frequency is agreeable to both parties there is no problem. But when one party feels like they're 'starving' it's really easy for the tiniest hint to lead to disappointment and hurt feelings 







norajane said:


> It's called being affectionate. Did people who have trouble with this grow up in households that weren't affectionate or something? Never saw your parents hug or kiss just because, and without running into the bedroom? Never saw them snuggle on the couch watching tv?


As men, one consistent messege that our wives tell us and we read about in books and internet forums like TAM is this: _We can't expect a woman to instantly feel sexual._ 

A man needs to gently and lovingly kindle that fire in tiny, incremental steps. A woman needs affection, a woman needs emotional connection, a woman needs touch and a woman needs mood; sometimes for hours beforehand. 

If a woman wants an evening of intimacy _without_ sex, then it's really important that she communicate that to her husband beforehand. Without being a mind reader, man is not going to know the difference between cuddling on the couch watching television as an incremental step to further intimacy and cuddling on the couch watching television for its own sake.

It's neither fair nor consistent to suddenly pretend that the exact same subtle approach and gentle contact that a woman needs in order to feel sexual has no sexual connotation at all and is in fact, 'non-sexual.'


----------



## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

ocotillo said:


> If a woman wants an evening of intimacy _without_ sex, then it's really important that she communicate that to her husband beforehand. Without being a mind reader, man is not going to know the difference between cuddling on the couch watching television as an incremental step to further intimacy and cuddling on the couch watching television for its own sake.


But the thing in my house is that if I communicate with him well ahead of time that I'm not in the mood (or whatever) for sex that night -- I automatically get no touch whatsoever until the next night, when he think he stands a better chance of having sex. Or if I try to hug him or touch him later after I've let him know we won't be having sex, he thinks I changed my mind and now I want sex. 

I don't think he understands the whole non sexual touch thing, he doesn't see a point in it, but I've done what I can, what is within my power to do to try and increase my drive... I need his help now. 

I was going to bring it up to him last night -- But I don't know how. I should just blurt it out -- "I need non sexual touch occasionally"... I don't know.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

tacoma said:


> There do seem to be a couple of guys here who don`t differentiate between the two. Makes me a bit more understanding/empathetic to some of the complaints some women have around here.


Well my wife and I are experiencing the 'flameout' that sometimes accompanies menopause. The ovaries cut way back on estrogen production and menses comes to a halt, but they continue merrily producing testosterone at previous levels. 

The woman's drive goes absolutely through the roof to the point where it's difficult for a fifty-something male to physically keep up. (We're talking multiple times a day on weekends) 

Here are some snippets from another forum where women are discussing this:



> "I'm 56 and haven't had a period in over a year. For the past 6 months, I have felt like a cat in heat. I have never had a sex drive like this in my life. It's driving me nuts."
> 
> "I had the increased libido about 2 years ago, when my periods started getting off schedule and I was having hot flashes. I thought I would go crazy with all of the thoughts, feelings and dreams associated with it. I, unfortunately, also developed a crush on someone (it was only a crush, nothing more than that in reality) but I felt guilty all of the time because I was having these feelings and having a crush on someone other than my husband. To me, increased libido is no fun."
> 
> ...



It has been one of life's great reversals and given us both a big hint of what the other one has gone through.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Cherry said:


> But the thing in my house is that if I communicate with him well ahead of time that I'm not in the mood (or whatever) for sex that night -- I automatically get no touch whatsoever until the next night....


Well like I said, I think that's extremely short-sighted of him. I wouldn't call it 'non-sexual' but I certainly agree that women deserve lots and lots of touch and closeness with no strings of any kind attached. 

To me, you're being more than reasonable.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I think a great many "withholders" don't appreciate the level of resentment they create over years of pushing their partners away. After being turned away at least 98% of the time over 10 years, I really don't want to hear "can't you just hold me?" or "that's all you care about!" If you've ignored your partner's basic needs for years at a time, you don't deserve to be cuddled. You deserve abandonment. Each and every time you've turned your spouse down (and for some, we're talking tens of thousands of times), you've placed your needs over their's. Every single time. In response to your sustained, abhorent cruelty, your partner doesn't kill you, beat you, or divorce you, they just have the bad manners of touching you in a semi-sexual way. You believe they should react to your years of abuse and inconsideration with restraint and consideration. That's not even logical.


----------



## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

unbelievable said:


> I think a great many "withholders" don't appreciate the level of resentment they create over years of pushing their partners away. After being turned away at least 98% of the time over 10 years, I really don't want to hear "can't you just hold me?" or "that's all you care about!" If you've ignored your partner's basic needs for years at a time, you don't deserve to be cuddled. You deserve abandonment. Each and every time you've turned your spouse down (and for some, we're talking tens of thousands of times), you've placed your needs over their's. Every single time. In response to your sustained, abhorent cruelty, your partner doesn't kill you, beat you, or divorce you, they just have the bad manners of touching you in a semi-sexual way. You believe they should react to your years of abuse and inconsideration with restraint and consideration. That's not even logical.


Are you talking to me? Excuse me if you are.... My H has betrayed me, cheated on me, emotionally and physically beat me, lied to me and has been an outright a$$hole over the first 3 of our 5 years together. I have agreed to reconcile with him and we are on year two. I am asking for his help in this fvcking reconciliation. He's lucky he still has his family in tact, THANKS TO ME.

I wish to fvcking gawd some people would read back stories before they start shouting off at the mouth.


----------



## iGuy (Apr 23, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> I think a great many "withholders" don't appreciate the level of resentment they create over years of pushing their partners away. After being turned away at least 98% of the time over 10 years, I really don't want to hear "can't you just hold me?" or "that's all you care about!" If you've ignored your partner's basic needs for years at a time, you don't deserve to be cuddled. You deserve abandonment. Each and every time you've turned your spouse down (and for some, we're talking tens of thousands of times), you've placed your needs over their's. Every single time. In response to your sustained, abhorent cruelty, your partner doesn't kill you, beat you, or divorce you, they just have the bad manners of touching you in a semi-sexual way. You believe they should react to your years of abuse and inconsideration with restraint and consideration. That's not even logical.


*:iagree: BLOODY DAMN STRAIGHT! :iagree:*

With respect to Cherry, I agree with this 100% I agree with this SO VERY VERY VERY MUCH, I swear poster, if I knew what you looked like, I'd build a 100ft solid Gold statue of you!!!!!

EDIT: TO clarify, Cherry I understand your position.

Mine though, is where my wife sexually cheated on me when we started dating, I still found notes she made of her ex boyfriend after we got married, she rejects me sexually all the time despite me doing everything imaginable to please her (See my thread). 

SO, I understand your issue Chrry, but I do agree with the "offending" poster


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Cherry said:


> Are you talking to me? Excuse me if you are.... My H has betrayed me, cheated on me, emotionally and physically beat me, lied to me and has been an outright a$$hole over the first 3 of our 5 years together. I have agreed to reconcile with him and we are on year two. I am asking for his help in this fvcking reconciliation. He's lucky he still has his family in tact, THANKS TO ME.
> 
> I wish to fvcking gawd some people would read back stories before they start shouting off at the mouth.


Sorry, can't help you. Your feeling of wanting to reconcile, to me at least, is as alien as Saturn. But let's intellectualize this for a second. Basically, you want DATE your husband. So tell him that, that you're basically just dating. The same way that other couples date.


----------



## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

Runs like Dog said:


> Sorry, can't help you. Your feeling of wanting to reconcile, to me at least, is as alien as Saturn. But let's intellectualize this for a second. Basically, you want DATE your husband. So tell him that, that you're basically just dating. The same way that other couples date.


Yes, RLD, no one quite understands what I'm still doing with him, but aside from that I guess you could say I do want to date my H now. I told him that jokingly a few weeks ago, and he reminded me we had sex on our first date. So I can't use that term with him, he has a point.


----------



## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

iGuy said:


> *:iagree: BLOODY DAMN STRAIGHT! :iagree:*
> 
> With respect to Cherry, I agree with this 100% I agree with this SO VERY VERY VERY MUCH, I swear poster, if I knew what you looked like, I'd build a 100ft solid Gold statue of you!!!!!
> 
> ...



So what are you doing to make YOU happy?


----------



## iGuy (Apr 23, 2012)

strugglinghusband said:


> So what are you doing to make YOU happy?


Going to work early, working late and going to bed between 6 and 7 pm on weekends...

Doesn't make me happy, just helps to keep the depression and suicidal thoughts at bay!


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Cherry said:


> Yes, RLD, no one quite understands what I'm still doing with him, but aside from that I guess you could say I do want to date my H now. I told him that jokingly a few weeks ago, and he reminded me we had sex on our first date. So I can't use that term with him, he has a point.


Of course you can use that word, you're in a synthetic sort of made of situation now so play it that way - the way 'other people' have dates.


----------



## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Maybe switching up the environment where you get non-sexual touching vs. sexual touching. That is, don't ask for non-sexual touching right off say in the bedroom or on the sofa. Go out to dinner or the movies or dancing where touch can occur in a safe environment. You can practice leg touching, arm touching, holding hands, close embrace but it will be in an environment where sex is not possible...then have a different place where there is cooling off, say, do the groceries on the way home... 

This will get him used to the concept of non-sexual touching. You also can practice different responses at these times, so that he can learn to read you better.


----------



## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

iGuy said:


> Going to work early, working late and going to bed between 6 and 7 pm on weekends...
> 
> Doesn't make me happy, just helps to keep the depression and suicidal thoughts at bay!


What would make you happy? what makes you happy now? (leave the wife out of it) find something for you! make a list of things you want to do or try, Do one or all of them, whats holding you back?...your sad now, so why not try something..

You are in charge of your happiness in life, not your wife or anyone else...


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

This thread reminds me of a picture I saw of a baby in a onesie that said "all mommy wanted was a backrub" lol


----------



## iGuy (Apr 23, 2012)

strugglinghusband said:


> What would make you happy? what makes you happy now? (leave the wife out of it) find something for you! make a list of things you want to do or try, Do one or all of them, whats holding you back?...your sad now, so why not try something..
> 
> You are in charge of your happiness in life, not your wife or anyone else...


Well, obviously I'm at TAM for a reason. I don't want material crap or a tropical holiday.

All I want, all I've ever wanted and the thing I saved my virginity for, was a wife with whom I could have an exciting, passionate sex life with.

You know, the kind my wife had when she weighed 130 lbs, worked out and experimented sexually with her ex boyfriends. The kind of sex life she promised me we'd have. 

Sadly, after she got her anaphrodisiac (wedding ring), "nice", non threatening husband, she gained weight to now weigh over 300lbs, tells me she is better than me and withholds sex - despite me very much desiring her still! Despite me working longer hours so that she can be home with the kids more and have a more relaxed (sexless) life.

I could cope with the apocalypse if only she were remotely interested in me sexually. Instead she finds(and looks for) every excuse in the book!


----------



## livelaughlovenow (Apr 23, 2012)

Cherry said:


> so do you think it's too much to ask that he might want to help me get mine back by agreeing to touch me non-sexually occasionally, or controlling his urge to bone me right then and there, or walking away frustrated because he thought I hugged him because I was horny? Perhaps help me feel like more than a piece of meat?
> 
> We've ramped up how often we have sex, it was once a week a few months ago, and I have consciously made sure I don't just say "no" for the heck of it... and it's up to 2/3 times a week. So I'm trying, I just need some help from him and don't know how to ask him or even if I should. I do not want to hurt his feelings, but it's tiring when I know I am trying the best that I can and all I freaking want is a hug... lol... Okay, not quite that simple I guess.


Honestly, he can control the action of acting on the hard on, however the hard on is a physical response that he cannot control, due to a number of physiological body/brain responses, could be from touch, smell, sight... etc... however, that being said, he can make a point to touch you more in non sexual ways, but if that turns him on, he can't help that. My husband is the same way, he can touch my hair and it turns him on, the simplest things, same with a full body hug so I know exactly what you are talking about. And for my dh, the more we have sex, the more he wants it~! lol (usually) so it seems like nothing changes it. I would make sure to make clear your desires, do not expect him to read your mind be very specific, during a non sexually charged time. And go from there.


----------



## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I get where you are coming from, Cherry. My husband is one who has no understanding of "no-sex-right-now" style touching. 

He does not touch me in any way if there is no possibility for sex within the next half hour or so. He has no use for touching me at all if it won't lead to immediate sex. If I touch him or allow him to touch me, it's as if I've said out loud to him that I want a quickie _right now_. If I don't follow through with sex right then, I'm being a selfish tease. This is his reaction whether we're having sex once a week or once a day. He simply cannot process that not all touch between us has to lead to sex right away. He expects sex in return for any affectionate gesture - and, frankly, for anything nice he does for me - not as a general part of a happy marriage, but in a direct and immediate tit-for-tat arrangement. 

Of course, he sees my need for no-sex-right-now touch as "wrong" because he does not share that need.


----------



## iGuy (Apr 23, 2012)

I've just given my wife a non sexual back rub. She appreciated it.

By the way, coconut oil is amazing! It doesn't irritate the vagina and you can so some amazing massage techniques with it.

Try a Yoni massage with melted coconut oil (melts at body temp).

It works great and gives the masseur amazing looking hands (the oil)


----------



## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

You know? Communication is vital  So I had a chat with him last night about this. He brought up some good points. But the main thing is he has given me full body hugs at least 3 times between last night and this morning, with no expectation of sex  And the funny thing is I ended up getting turned on, I didn't act on it... I want to save it for tonight when we have more time together to relax, we've had enough quickies this week


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Cherry said:


> Are you talking to me? Excuse me if you are.... My H has betrayed me, cheated on me, emotionally and physically beat me, lied to me and has been an outright a$$hole over the first 3 of our 5 years together. I have agreed to reconcile with him and we are on year two. I am asking for his help in this fvcking reconciliation. He's lucky he still has his family in tact, THANKS TO ME.
> 
> I wish to fvcking gawd some people would read back stories before they start shouting off at the mouth.


I don't see your name anywhere in my post, so there's no reason to assume it was about you. If it doesn't apply to your situtation, feel free to move along to one that does.


----------



## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

unbelievable said:


> I don't see your name anywhere in my post, so there's no reason to assume it was about you. If it doesn't apply to your situtation, feel free to move along to one that does.


My bad... guess I was thrown off by the use of "you" and "your" in your response on my thread. 

Cheers


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Lots of us respond to pronouns.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Lots of us respond to pronouns.


..and their antecedents


----------



## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> ..and their antecedents


I respond to imperatives!


----------



## livnlearn (Mar 5, 2012)

anyone else have to consult a grammar dictionary for the two posts above me?


----------



## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

livnlearn said:


> anyone else have to consult a grammar dictionary for the two posts above me?


Go go SAT vocabulary words!

That and 3 years of Latin at an impressionable age. Arg I can still hear myself going over "amo, amas, amat, amamus, amatis, amant" as a pre-teen. :banghead:


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Browncoat said:


> Go go SAT vocabulary words!
> 
> That and 3 years of Latin at an impressionable age. Arg I can still hear myself going over "amo, amas, amat, amamus, amatis, amant" as a pre-teen. :banghead:



Or, "αγαπώ, αγαπας, αγαπα, αγαπαμε, αγαπατε, αγαπούν" in Ancient Greek if you are really a masochist....


----------



## livnlearn (Mar 5, 2012)

Browncoat said:


> Go go SAT vocabulary words!
> 
> That and 3 years of Latin at an impressionable age. Arg I can still hear myself going over "amo, amas, amat, amamus, amatis, amant" as a pre-teen. :banghead:


I've never taken Latin and my SAT's were 30 years ago. though I'm sure yours weren't yesterday so this is a lame excuse. 

I sucked at math and science so had to totally pride myself on my one strength... grammar. "oh what have I become?" *hanging head in shame*


----------



## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

livnlearn said:


> I've never taken Latin and my SAT's were 30 years ago. though I'm sure yours weren't yesterday so this is a lame excuse.
> 
> I sucked at math and science so had to totally pride myself on my one strength... grammar. "oh what have I become?" *hanging head in shame*


... an awesome member of TAM.


----------



## happyman (Apr 30, 2012)

It wasn't something that she pointed out really although she did by how she reacted. I eventually noticed that she would respond negatively if I turned everything into a sexual advance. I still get turned on but just because I'm turned on doesn't mean I have to act on it. I like chocolate but I don't eat every chocolate bar I see (although I want to!). So i might hug her and just see how she reacts. Sometimes i know its on, sometimes its not. I just stopped assuming its always on. 

It wasn't easy not because I was never exposed to affection as a child or anything like that (which is an odd leap to make), I was just very self-centered and had to realize that. My marriage slowly tanked over the years and after examining it I just saw where I wasn't doing what I needed to do. Making her feel like an object wasn't helping. That might sound like it happened over night but I spent alot of time reading forums and books on happy marriages. I even took some classes in family therapy. Eventually even saw a therapist (she wouldn't go but I needed to work on myself anyway). So it was a lot of work on me and the way I relate to the world in general. So basically your husband is being self-centered. I don't think you can force other people to change that because that kind of change has to come from within so I don't have any good advice to give. I mean, how do you tell someone who thinks their poo doesn't stink that it does?

EDIT: I have been away for a few days and just read your response to "unbelievable." I'm confused about your situation and while I don't know the whole story, if you're with someone who has acted very badly for a long time (3 years is a really long time to be treated badly) in the past it is rather unlikely that they would change quickly at all. It took me years of working on myself after I voluntarily began trying to improve myself and my marriage and I never did any of the things he appears to have done to you. I am not saying in any way that you deserve it. I just don't understand how it is that you think he will make such a drastic change in a short period of time. It takes twice as long to unlearn a behavior as it does to learn it. So if he learned for 3 years that he could abuse you I would expect it would take 6 for him to learn that he can't. The fact that you're even willing to try is really generous of you.


----------



## livnlearn (Mar 5, 2012)

Browncoat said:


> ... an awesome member of TAM.


aw, thanks browncoat. you always have something nice to say.


----------



## livelaughlovenow (Apr 23, 2012)

Cherry said:


> You know? Communication is vital  So I had a chat with him last night about this. He brought up some good points. But the main thing is he has given me full body hugs at least 3 times between last night and this morning, with no expectation of sex  And the funny thing is I ended up getting turned on, I didn't act on it... I want to save it for tonight when we have more time together to relax, we've had enough quickies this week


Awesome news  Communicating your needs does help  Especially in a non charged environment, provided your spouse is willing to listen  Glad yours was!!


----------



## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

livnlearn said:


> anyone else have to consult a grammar dictionary for the two posts above me?


Yes, lol.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Cherry said:


> You know? Communication is vital  So I had a chat with him last night about this. He brought up some good points. But the main thing is he has given me full body hugs at least 3 times between last night and this morning, with no expectation of sex  And the funny thing is I ended up getting turned on, I didn't act on it... I want to save it for tonight when we have more time together to relax, we've had enough quickies this week


Good for you. There's so much heartbreak on TAM. It's always encouraging when something turns for the better


----------



## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

ocotillo said:


> Good for you. There's so much heartbreak on TAM. It's always encouraging when something turns for the better


Thanks. I have learned and continue to learn from the members of TAM... Honestly without this place, I would've never thought so deeply about my marriage and I would've more than likely set myself on auto pilot, but I want the most of my marriage, and that includes a healthy intimate relationship with my H. I chose to be a part of this reconciliation, I should at least enjoy it and do my best to put the heartache to rest 

Thank you for your support.


----------



## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Cherry said:


> Thanks. I have learned and continue to learn from the members of TAM... Honestly without this place, I would've never thought so deeply about my marriage and I would've more than likely set myself on auto pilot, but I want the most of my marriage, and that includes a healthy intimate relationship with my H. I chose to be a part of this reconciliation, I should at least enjoy it and do my best to put the heartache to rest
> 
> Thank you for your support.


I know what you mean Cherry. This website and the folks here help me in little and big ways every day. I'm really grateful.


----------

