# *** Ladies, what did YOU do to deserve Alimony? ***



## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

Hi Ladies ~

I am going through a divorce after 31+ years of marriage.

My STBX seems to think that I "did nothing" since I worked outside the home for only 12 years.

I am making a list of the "things I did" because he feels I don't deserve "alimony."

Will you please help me with the list?

The obvious:

Cooked
Cleaned
Drove our son back and forth to school.
Class Mom
Den Mother for scouts

You get the picture ........

Thank you ~

Very Hurt


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Actually, the less you did the more you should get. The purpose of alimony is to maintain your lifestyle at the level to which you are accustomed and unable to support yourself. So if I were you, I'd portray myself as a very needy and useless person, not as someone who did stuff to 'deserve' it. 

And as for proving anything to him?? Just the fact he'd say that you did nothing to deserve it screams at me that you should be putting him on your permanent IGNORE list and pretending he doesn't exist. What a turd.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

You could also do up an estimate of every time you had sex and charge him the going rate for that.


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

How is it that you need to convince him that alimony has been earned? Isn't it based on a formula provided by the state?

That said, screw the monster to-do list. Go to salary.com or someplace like that. Look up average wages for nanny, housekeeper, cook, driver, personal assistant, etc. Roughly determine the percentage of time that you spent on each of those tasks per week, multiply by 52 weeks per year and multiply again by however long you were married (since I'm guessing all those were accomplished while working outside the home as well) and send him a bill for THAT. I'd probably even go on craigslist and see if you can find a price for "massage" or "escort" services and throw that in a couple of times a week too!

But I'm just petty like that :smthumbup:


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## TurtleRun (Oct 18, 2013)

What is a stay-at-home mom's salary worth? How tasks would add up to a $113,568 income | Mail Online

lol 
113k stay at home and there is a working mom chart in there for 67k.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

TurtleRun said:


> What is a stay-at-home mom's salary worth? How tasks would add up to a $113,568 income | Mail Online
> 
> lol
> 113k stay at home and there is a working mom chart in there for 67k.


That's per year, right?

113k x 31 years = more than $3.5 million


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

You have nothing to prove as a wife and mother.
Alimony is based on the standard of living during the marriage and earning potential. That's it. Not what either party did for the family unit.
He believes you should justify your existence to his checkbook. Tell him to screw it!


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> You could also do up an estimate of every time you had sex and charge him the going rate for that.


:lol: :iagree:

But he would probably come back with something that its a wife job to provide that.


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

Through his Attorney, he sent me a Settlement Proposal that was INSANE !!!

It included what Alimony he feels is fair. 

I nearly choked. 

Then I heard through "the grapevine" the amount he came up with was what he felt that I "deserved."

Jokingly, I wanted to start a list of what I actually did during 
31 years so one day he will REALIZE / KNOW / UNDERSTAND what I did.

I wanted some input from the Ladies.

VH


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

VeryHurt said:


> Through his Attorney, he sent me a Settlement Proposal that was INSANE !!!
> 
> It included what Alimony he feels is fair.
> 
> ...


You're expending way too much effort on him. He's a jerk who cheated on you and he doesn't deserve the time of day. He will NEVER realize, know or understand what you truly are worth. That is why you are divorcing his sorry a$$.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

By the way, why are all your posts big and blue??


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

No matter the list you come up with, he will find a way to minimize your effort and duties provided during the marriage. He will never "get it" and just use his insane rationalization hamster to justify his stance.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

Very Hurt, step away and don't let that a$$hole do this to you. What does your attorney say?

I googled alimony calculator for NJ and input some numbers. At a LT marriage with 200,000 income, he should be paying roughly $4000/month. Other factors include whether you supported him through school, what you gave up to help him succeed etc.

With 31 years, you should be eligible for permanent spousal support. You need a lawyer who will not let you be pushed around.

You do not need to justify alimony to him. Do not let him do that to you. DO NOT LET HIM MAKE YOU DEFENSIVE. GO ON THE OFFENSIVE.


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> By the way, why are all your posts big and blue??


It is easier for me to locate my posts when I scroll through them quickly. It is something that I have done for years on MY threads. If I post on someone else's thread, I do not do it.
VH


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

OK, I get it. 

No need to help me with a "list" as it seems that it would be a waste of time. 

Should I have this thread put to bed ?????

VH


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

VeryHurt said:


> It is easier for me to locate my posts when I scroll through them quickly. It is something that I have done for years on MY threads. If I post on someone else's thread, I do not do it.
> VH


I see.

What do you mean by 'put to bed'? I think you should leave this thread as it is. 

You don't sound like you like the advice you've been given though.


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## movealong (Aug 9, 2013)

Don't put it to bed. I think it is an interesting idea. Perhaps one of the gents could come up with a counter proposal as to why it should be less due to him being the main support? I am not trying to be a jerk, it really does interest me.

For example I provided:
Food
Shelter
Clothing
Transportation
Entertainment (movies/dinner/etc)

As compared to:
Cooking (did either do 100%?)
Cleaning (did either do 100%)
etc.

Then compare the costs and come up with an equitable number for compensation.

The lists could go on, but that is the idea, isn't it? Who did more to deserve what is left of a broken relationship? Perhaps it could lead to better Alimony/Palimony laws?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I don't know why you would feel the need to justify anything to this arse. Divorces bring out this kind of thing, and that's why states calculate it. What you think or what he thinks doesn't matter to the state. My ex thought I shouldn't get child support because I wanted the divorce; h$ll, 3 years after the divorce he continued to insist I owed him 5000 bucks for "stealing his tax return". You mean the one that went into our joint account to pay bills? Which you'd know about if you had any idea what was going on? I ignored him.

Having said that, alimony really has nothing to do with what you did to "earn it". Cooking/cleaning/kid duties are things you do for the marriage and family, not so you can be compensated for it. What you are compensated for is giving up your income potential for the sake of the family, which presumably he went along with.

He could make the argument that alimony isn't appropriate or shouldn't be that much if you worked for 12 years and as a result could support yourself in a comparable lifestyle right now. If your not working has affected your ability to do that then alimony is there to pick you up.

Anyway, ignore him as he's a proven arse. I have no idea why you'd expect anything different and why you'd get upset about what he thinks of you. You're giving him way too much power. He can make any proposal he wants and you can say no. It's now a business deal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

One thing to keep in mind when you look at the numbers for what it would have cost your husband to hire people to do all that you did as a SAHM is that when you were doing all those things, you were doing it 50% for yourself.

You see those were also your children you were raising. That was your house that you were cleaning. Your meals too that you were cooking.

I understand why imputing the cost of everything that a SAHM/W does is important because there are men who believe that only his earning an income counts. We’ve had men here post that their SAHM/W contributed nothing to the marriage/family. They are of course jack a$$es.

I think that it is always good for a person to think about things from the other person’s point of view.

When you get a divorce, you are free from your husband. You never have to spend one moment even thinking about him much less doing anything for him.

His reality is very different. The law say that since he supported you in marriage he is now responsible for supporting you for a long time if not for life. He does not get the freedom you get. Instead he will be working 30%-50% of his time for you until he retires. 

How would you react if the courts said that while you were married, you took care of the home front? Therefore your husband has the right to expect to have the same level of support from you. So you need to spend 4 hours a day, 5 days a week taking care of his home, his laundry, his cooking, etc.?

Why is it that the breadwinner can never be free and comes basically a slave to the SAH spouse? But the SAH spouse has no further obligations to the bread winner?

I think that alimony is a necessity in some cases. But I also believe that the spouse how gets alimony has an obligation to become as self-supporting as possible after divorce. More and more states are making this the standard. Even California with its’ lifelong spousal support is not leaning more and more to the supported ex to become self-supporting if at all possible.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Why is it that the breadwinner can never be free and comes basically a slave to the SAH spouse? But the SAH spouse has no further obligations to the bread winner?
> 
> I think that alimony is a necessity in some cases. But I also believe that the spouse how gets alimony has an obligation to become as self-supporting as possible after divorce. More and more states are making this the standard. Even California with its’ lifelong spousal support is not leaning more and more to the supported ex to become self-supporting if at all possible.


And I disagree.

In many cases, the working spouse reaped professional benefits from the SAHP. Those benefits translate directly into higher income potential and success. Meanwhile, the partner who stayed home has given up the opportunity to invest in their own career. By investing in the partner's career, they have basically bought stock in mypartner.com and should expect a ROI. That ROI has a tail so yes, the working partner needs to honor the investment.

Now, you can debate whether that partner did or did not benefit but that doesn't really matter.


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> You don't sound like you like the advice you've been given though.


Hope ~
Not certain what made you think this? I am fine with all the posts. :scratchhead:
VH


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

I'm not a fan of alimony, and it us rarely given in my state. But I cam see that limited alimony to help someone get on their feet is needed.

Do you plan to work again? If not, why?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

You could think of paying alimony as getting out of a contract that you made when you and your husband got married. I will give you an example:

My parents married in 1963. At the time, they both agreed that my Dad would work outside the home and my mom would work in home. This was the agreement/contract they made together.

She was a SAHW until I was born. It was never discussed that she would ever go to work once my brother and I got older or when they were empty nesters. 

20+ years later my mom finds out about my dad's LTA when the OW shows up at the front door. My dad kicks the OW to the curb and reconciles with my mom. 

If he decided to go off with the OW and divorce, he's breaking the contract and so must pay to get out of the contract. My mom upheld her side of the agreement. Raised the children, cleaned the house, mended clothes, had dinner on the table when he got home, etc. In turn, my mom in good faith, trusted my dad to take of her.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

And women wonder why fewer and fewer men are willing to tie the knot nowadays...


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Don't prove it to him.
Prove it to the state.


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## Dreald (Aug 30, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> One thing to keep in mind when you look at the numbers for what it would have cost your husband to hire people to do all that you did as a SAHM is that when you were doing all those things, you were doing it 50% for yourself.
> 
> You see those were also your children you were raising. That was your house that you were cleaning. Your meals too that you were cooking.
> 
> ...


Wonderful synopsis....I only wish more women could see it this way instead of the entitlement perspective that most have when it comes to alimony. 

When women wonder "Where Have All The Good Men Gone"? They're Going Their Own Way....


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Fenix said:


> And I disagree.
> 
> In many cases, the working spouse reaped professional benefits from the SAHP. Those benefits translate directly into higher income potential and success. Meanwhile, the partner who stayed home has given up the opportunity to invest in their own career. By investing in the partner's career, they have basically bought stock in mypartner.com and should expect a ROI. That ROI has a tail so yes, the working partner needs to honor the investment.
> 
> Now, you can debate whether that partner did or did not benefit but that doesn't really matter.


I'm not saying that in some or most cases the breadwinner did not benefit from having a stay at home spouse. I think that in most cases they did... not all but most.

However, I believe that every person needs to seek to be self supporting, especially when they are not married and not filling the role of a SAHM/D.

In the cases of women who have been married for decades and then divorce at a very late age, they will never be able to support themselves. The same goes for a disabled spouse. So sure, the ex needs to help support them. 

for a women who has been out of the work force for 10-15 years. They can usually build a career so shorter term rehabilitative support is usually sufficient.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

VeryHurt said:


> Hi Ladies ~
> 
> I am going through a divorce after 31+ years of marriage.
> 
> ...



I can tell you what my Ex did to deserve alimony..

NOTHING!!!


Because she was unemployed... the state deemed her an invalid who must be supported in a manner to which she became accustomed...

This was back in the mid 80's. 

We had no children, no love life, no companionship, no cooking, no cleaning, no nothing.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

larry.gray said:


> And women wonder why fewer and fewer men are willing to tie the knot nowadays...


Yes, because marriage is a really bad proposition* for women*.


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

It seems my original intention for my thread has transformed into an Alimony debate and I like it.

Let me add something: 

My STBX doesn't believe that I deserve "a lot Alimony" and he has ALSO taken his business and insurance policy (marital assets) and put it in a Trust. I was not aware of anything.

Looks as if I don't deserve half of anything !!!!!!!!!!


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

VeryHurt said:


> Hope ~
> Not certain what made you think this? I am fine with all the posts. :scratchhead:
> VH


Guess I was reading something into it that wasn't there. I hope you are able to let your ex go and cut a clean break from the jerk. You really do NOT need to justify anything to him you know.


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## TurtleRun (Oct 18, 2013)

VeryHurt I been following your post for awhile and I have to LOL everytime he pulls a number from thin air! Talk about crazy. Hopefully your lawyers will help you get what you need!!


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## TurtleRun (Oct 18, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> In the cases of women who have been married for decades and then divorce at a very late age, they will never be able to support themselves. The same goes for a disabled spouse. So sure, the ex needs to help support them.
> 
> for a women who has been out of the work force for 10-15 years. They can usually build a career so shorter term rehabilitative support is usually sufficient.


:iagree: I think alimony should be given if the wife has spent the marriage at home if husband had asked her too. I too have worried if my husband would ever leave me what would I do?!?! He has asked me to stay home and raise the children. 

That being said even though he has asked me to stay home I have decided to still get certificates through online classes in varies fields and a degree just to make me feel like I can do something after the children go to school. Nothing like a good hobby. :smthumbup:


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

TurtleRun said:


> :iagree: I think alimony should be given if the wife has spent the marriage at home if husband had asked her too. I too have worried if my husband would ever leave me what would I do?!?! He has asked me to stay home and raise the children.
> 
> That being said even though he has asked me to stay home I have decided to still get certificates through online classes in varies fields and a degree just to make me feel like I can do something after the children go to school. Nothing like a good hobby. :smthumbup:


You're a smart woman Turtle !!!!!!!!


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

Again, do you plan to work at some point? I agree you deserve half of the marital assets, but surely you plan to support yourself at some point...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

TurtleRun said:


> :iagree: I think alimony should be given if the wife has spent the marriage at home if husband had asked her too. I too have worried if my husband would ever leave me what would I do?!?! He has asked me to stay home and raise the children.
> 
> That being said even though he has asked me to stay home I have decided to still get certificates through online classes in varies fields and a degree just to make me feel like I can do something after the children go to school. Nothing like a good hobby. :smthumbup:


I agree Turtle. While I see great benefits in having the wife stay home and raise the children... 

Every women should be in a position to earn income if they have to. I have consistently given my daughter that message.


Before I married my wife... She was divorced and had a small child... She was running an in-home day care center... and doing quite well.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

TurtleRun said:


> :iagree: I think alimony should be given if the wife has spent the marriage at home if husband had asked her too. I too have worried if my husband would ever leave me what would I do?!?! He has asked me to stay home and raise the children.
> 
> That being said even though he has asked me to stay home I have decided to still get certificates through online classes in varies fields and a degree just to make me feel like I can do something after the children go to school. Nothing like a good hobby. :smthumbup:


After seeing what my mom went through, I made sure I always kept in touch with my career contacts when I was SAHM for 7 years. I work part time now but if I needed to go full time I could call the owner of my company tomorrow. He's been bugging me to come back full time.

I've told my daughter (19) the same thing, always be prepared to take care of yourself and any kids you may have. You never know what may happen.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

I am somewhat conflicted about spousal support. Its not that I won't help her get started, even though the marriage going to hell is mostly her fault (2 EA's). 

What gets me is that I really am at the top of earning potential and since I was fine with her not working, she is going to get a huge bite of my paycheck. While she can take her degree and training and could go from zero to six figures quickly, I can't reasonably expect any promotion or raise, short of going self employed, that will recoup what I will be paying her for years. It feels like slavery. 

I will have to file an action on her later on to get it adjusted. More cost/ more loss more wasted time and energy on this. Or maybe she will just live it up and not apply herself until the gravy train runs out. Grrrrr..

/rant


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Pluto2 said:


> You have nothing to prove as a wife and mother.
> Alimony is based on the standard of living during the marriage and earning potential. That's it. Not what either party did for the family unit.
> He believes you should justify your existence to his checkbook. Tell him to screw it!


Thank you for that sanity check, Pluto.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

ScrambledEggs said:


> I am somewhat conflicted about spousal support. Its not that I won't help her get started, even though the marriage going to hell is mostly her fault (2 EA's).
> 
> What gets me is that I really am at the top of earning potential and since I was fine with her not working, she is going to get a huge bite of my paycheck. While she can take her degree and training and could go from zero to six figures quickly, I can't reasonably expect any promotion or raise, short of going self employed, that will recoup what I will be paying her for years. It feels like slavery.
> 
> ...


You can always ask for a review, I think! If circumstances change, so does support.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ScrambledEggs said:


> I am somewhat conflicted about spousal support. Its not that I won't help her get started, even though the marriage going to hell is mostly her fault (2 EA's).
> 
> What gets me is that I really am at the top of earning potential and since I was fine with her not working, she is going to get a huge bite of my paycheck. While she can take her degree and training and could go from zero to six figures quickly, I can't reasonably expect any promotion or raise, short of going self employed, that will recoup what I will be paying her for years. It feels like slavery.
> 
> ...


Did you have her potential income imputed when/if spousal support was determined.

You should be able to get the support decreased as her income increases. 

I disagree with the way courts require more actions to be filed. It should be pretty routine... both parties provide their tax returns each year and support is recalculated. If the spouse receiving support gets an increase in earning, she/he has to let the other know within 30 days and support is adjusted.

A formula can be used to calculate this. And an end date by which the supported person must be self supporting.

There are special cases such a very old spouses in a long term marriage or disabled spouses.

But I don't make the laws. So what I think does not count.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ebp123 said:


> You can always ask for a review, I think! If circumstances change, so does support.


That's what he meant when he said that he'll have to raise an action. ... an action to get support reduced.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

EleGirl said:


> That's what he meant when he said that he'll have to raise an action. ... an action to get support reduced.


Right. I was too ready to get past his lament that I didn't read that part. What he sees as a negative I see as a viable option.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TurtleRun (Oct 18, 2013)

ScrambledEggs said:


> I am somewhat conflicted about spousal support. Its not that I won't help her get started, even though the marriage going to hell is mostly her fault (2 EA's).
> 
> What gets me is that I really am at the top of earning potential and since I was fine with her not working, she is going to get a huge bite of my paycheck. While she can take her degree and training and could go from zero to six figures quickly, I can't reasonably expect any promotion or raise, short of going self employed, that will recoup what I will be paying her for years. It feels like slavery.
> 
> ...


After 2 EA's you should tell her to get a job as one of the conditions to take her back.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ebp123 said:


> Right. I was too ready to get past his lament that I didn't read that part. What he sees as a negative I see as a viable option.


 The problem is that the 'viable option' can cost thousands of dollars to file for. It can end up as contentious an the divorce was.

This process needs to be made a lot less expensive and easier.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

VeryHurt said:


> Hi Ladies ~
> 
> I am going through a divorce after 31+ years of marriage.
> 
> ...


I have some questions to better understand your situation.

You were married for 31 years. How old are you now.

You worked outside the home for 12 years? When was this? The last 12 years? Or earlier in the marriage?

Did you get any education while you were married?


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## gettingout (Jan 15, 2013)

If this woman was married for 31 years, she is likely in her 50s or possibly even 60s.
New Jersey (a very high COLA state) has a pretty high rate of unemployment and companies and the state government are shedding jobs like mad.
Older workers and the long-term unemployed are having an extremely tough go of it - I know because I am one of them, but was recently lucky enough to find something, but it is not enough to support me and my child, but it's a start (I'm guessing I am about 10 years younger than her).
Even if she finds a low-wage clerical job, there is no way she will be able to find a job that comes close paying her expenses, even if she downsizes to another place.
But yes some more info would be helpful.


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

My feelings about spousal support are likely not popular, but I'll throw in my $0.02 anyway. 

Unless you are physically or mentally incapable of working, why can't you work to support yourself? 

Personally I don't feel it's fair for a spouse to be required to support the other after a divorce. Split the assets down the middle, pick up the pieces, and start over. Even if you had kids during those 31 years of marriage, there's a huge chunk of time to account for where the children were either old enough to fend for themselves or were out of the house completely. If you chose not to work and your spouse's income could allow you to survive on one income, awesome. Be thankful for the years you experienced that lifestyle. 

For those saying she gave up a career and doesn't have the same earning potential as her spouse... She made that choice. I highly doubt her husband put a gun to her head and told her she couldn't work. This is something she should've thought about years ago. No one plans on getting divorced, but the onus is on you to prepare yourself for your own future. 

That being said, although you won't jump into the work world earning six figures, find whatever kind of job you can, and use social services if you have to to cover the rest. There are housing assistance programs, food assistance programs, etc. to supplement what you cannot afford from your wages alone. You won't be living in a lap of luxury, but you can survive.

Life is about the choices we make. I guess as a single mother it touches a nerve to read that you balk at the alimony he's agreeing to pay you. I put myself through college while working full time and raising my ex's three kids from his first marriage. After college I landed a great career and we had a child of our own, for whom my ex never lifted one finger with. I've busted my butt and raised my child entirely on my own, so I can't empathize with your plight. I think you need to be thankful you'll be receiving anything at all and start learning how to provide for yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nikita2270 (Mar 22, 2014)

VeryHurt:

I think the key to moving on in a healthy manner from divorce is to work on detaching yourself from your ex's opinions. What he thinks is irrelevant.

The assets will be split. Your focus should be on making sure that all the assets are properly disclosed so that you can get your 50% of the asset equity.

You will probably be eligible for alimony and will receive it based on the current table amount in your state.

Making a list of what you did during marriage is irrational, emotionally-driven, and flawed thinking.

The reason that alimony laws exist is because the laws recognize that your ex's career probably benefitted from you staying at home...while your career prospects were materially damaged.

That being said, you should know that alimony laws are changing. States are already starting to term and cap alimony due to the burden it places on the higher earning spouse long after the marriage is dissolved. Within the next 5 years, don't be surprised if there's a legal challenge to whatever alimony you receive.

The reason is that adults have the responsibility to be self-supporting. States are starting to recognize that children of marriage have more a duty to be self-supporting that some ex-spouses do because child support only goes to 18 years of age while alimony can sometimes never end...which is ridiculous.

What you did during marriage doesn't matter...you are getting divorced. What your husband thinks doesn't matter, the law does.

But you have the typical entitlement thinking handicap and its not healthy. During the marriage, you stayed home...your husband worked and you both benefitted from that ill-advised situation. Now that you're getting divorced, the deck gets reshuffled and the expectation that your ex should pay for you to stay home forever is ridiculous.

You do deserve alimony....termed and capped...to give you the opportunity to get back into the work force and learn to be a self-sufficient adult. Its the same thing we expect of our children.

If your husband was a d*ck during marriage, its all the more reason why you taking care of yourself and telling him to shove his money up his butt because you are whole without him will be a source of empowerment and pride for you going forward.

Managing divorce is about understanding that you're never going to make him come to any understanding or get closure on the things that you think he should. Move on, have a good life, take care of yourself and be proud of your accomplishments.

Best wishes!


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## Nikita2270 (Mar 22, 2014)

> And women wonder why fewer and fewer men are willing to tie the knot nowadays...


Its not just men...its the higher wage earner and women's earnings are going up.

I have two close friends that ended up paying their ex-husbands alimony after divorce.

When I started dating after separation, one of my requirements is that I wouldn't bother dating anyone that didn't earn as much or more than I did. I don't know if I'll get remarried but even common-law, live-in couples have to pay alimony where I live and there's noooooo way I'm ever going to financially support any adult male.

The alimony laws seriously need to change. Its ridiculous that people are being forced to support ex-spouses longer than they have to support their children. Any spouse that stays home has the right to a fair, termed alimony amount after divorce to get back on their feet but ultimately after divorce, you have a responsibility to support yourself.

And frankly, I can't imagine how disempowering it must be to not be able to support yourself and have to rely on money from an ex-spouse who no longer wants to be anywhere near you.

There are some cases where alimony should be ordered indefinitely for sick ex-spouses or where alimony is used for compensatory payments for an ex-spouse who squandered assets....those cases are the exception though.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

VeryHurt said:


> It seems my original intention for my thread has transformed into an Alimony debate and I like it.
> 
> Let me add something:
> 
> ...


Hahahaha!

Another one of "these" guys, and their lawyers that think they are so smart.

He can hide all the money he wants. It all gets washed up in the end. He's actually shooting himself in the foot, because hiding money is a BAD thing in divorces. As soon as the judge finds out, he will order an audit. And the hubby will most likely lose standing in the judges eyes.

Not 100% sure of my recall in memory, but...

A case in Canada. Guy wins 14 million on the lottery. Keeps the ticket in a safe deposit box. Asks for divorce. After the divorce was finalized, he gets his brother to cash it in. Except, thus guy had to explain why his brother gave him all this money. Divorce was reopened. Brother spills the beans. Guy ends up loosing 70% of the ticket to his divorced wife. Judge says it was "manipulate and underhanded". And the date on the ticket was a week before the divorce papers were served, even though guy tries to justify it with his rationalization hamster.

I'm not here to argue pros and cons of alimony. But you don't have to respond to anything. Or sign anything. Let your lawyer and the judge work that out.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

I wasn't against alimony, for some reason. I couldn't change the fact of giving it, so I just accepted it.

In my mind, it was the monthly "pocket change"  I had to give her when we were married to keep things running. It was actually the same amount I settled for in divorce. So I came out net zero. Which was probably a good thing. 

And the child support I volunteered. By rights, with 50/50 custody I didn't have to give anything. But I still wanted my spawn to "live the lifestyle they grew accustomed to". Money I would have used, or squandered?, on them full time anyways. So 1/2 that can be used in her care with them.

It's all good. I may have been an exception in this case though. Having the means to do thus isn't in everyone's budget. And things were amicable in settlement, too...

Except the empty house I came home to after a business trip. Literally, empty. That kind of got me seeing red for a bit. But then I realized I had an opportunity to refurnish the house without a million candles or doilies in every fraking shelf space in the house.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Fenix said:


> Yes, because marriage is a really bad proposition* for women*.


Pretty lame comeback when it is so divorced from reality. There are plenty of young women claiming to be unable to find men willing to marry. There aren't men making the same claim.


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## TurtleRun (Oct 18, 2013)

Obviously as working mothers you work in your career instead of your family. Not saying that your not there for your family but everyone has different priorities. Stay at home mom's invest in her children and the partner has agreed to support her in this. It is harsh to say "well during the divorce we split everything in the middle." because that is not true. The spouse that worked had time to focus on their career because someone was taking care of everything at home. They gained experience in the working world. Can they split that in the middle ? No. To throw someone under the bus and say "well you chose to stay at home, you have no job experience but you should find a job anyways to support yourself." After you have already invested in a job... as a mother and a wife. Why should someone have to step down in their life style. Especially to those that the working spouse is a fricken cheater, is frankly the way I see it is a slap in the face.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

SoVeryLost said:


> My feelings about spousal support are likely not popular, but I'll throw in my $0.02 anyway.
> 
> Unless you are physically or mentally incapable of working, why can't you work to support yourself?
> 
> ...


Do you know VH's story? If I were her, I would milk that jerk for everything I could. He has treated her atrociously. Then again, I am vindictive.


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

I guess those of us who are working mothers didn't invest in our families? That's crap! 

I'm tired of the entitlement mentality. If I lose my job and can't find another one that pays as well, our standard of living will go down. That's life. The OP may have to accept a lower standard of living.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

tennisstar said:


> I guess those of us who are working mothers didn't invest in our families? That's crap!
> 
> I'm tired of the entitlement mentality. If I lose my job and can't find another one that pays as well, our standard of living will go down. That's life. The OP may have to accept a lower standard of living.


The OP will have a lower standard of living as will her husband. That is what divorce does.

Even if she gets full alimony, she will have to live on about 30% of his income. Each of them will need to have a place to live. 

I also agree with your take on the comment that working mothers don't invest in our families. Some people just need to justify their choices by insulting and putting down others.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

What grinds me is the spousal support system was designed for a different time/world.

We have no kids. Her not working was actually an issue in our marriage but I never pressed it because I do really well. She did not want to work and pursue the development of businesses and projects that never turned a profit but did develop her skill set. 

So I have the worst of both worlds. A wife that skated through the last 15 years with no pressure and little responsibilities to our financial detriment, and the financial burden of supporting a wife like she was some great homemaker at my wishes and needs. She did most of the cleaning, all the laundry, less than half the cooking, and about half the shopping and I did pretty much everything else. I can replace her in this regard with about $500 a month in services.

I know this is a 'first world problem' and that a lot of people here are faced with hard times over this question and I am not. I understand and I empathize. But in my case you would think the half million dollars she is getting in cash and retirement, on top of her degree and health, would be enough to go forward in life without me being her slave for years. Still ranting I guess. The laws are inadequate to the modern world.


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

Well, this thread gets further off base by the day but it allows everyone to vent about Alimony which we all know is a sore subject. 

Just to answer a few questions:

I will be 60 years old.

I am a Registered Nurse who work during the first part of our marriage. I worked in a fast-paced department of a large hospital and burned myself out.

I help my husband start up his company.

We had nothing for years: rice and beans etc...

He eventually became successful.

I went back into Nursing for a few more years and then "retired."

I worked at his business on and off after that.

I fell 6 years ago and destroyed my left leg. I needed a total knee replacement and it was left with permanent nerve damage from my ankle down to my toes.

I am unable to move my foot. I wear a brace so I can walk. Without the brace, I trip and fall.

He could not emotionally handle my injury and he did not want to be a "caretaker" or have a wife with a "disability."

He started an affair with his sec'y 5 years ago and has lied to me and cheated on me with numerous women for the past five years.

He has treated me like a piece of sh!t for over 5 years. I foolishly and regretfully put up with his emotional abuse because I thought very little of myself.

I endured humilation and embarrassment because of his behavior.

He destroyed our marriage and our family. He is incrediably selfish.

I put up with more insults and degrading comments that a wife should have.

Read all my threads that started in March of 2011 if you still have any questions. Read about how he left me the same day he brought me home from the hospital. The story is unbelievable and had many therapists and psychiatrists shocked.

I deserve and will demand what the State of NJ says that I am entitled under the law. No more. No less. 

I am not an evil person. I am not greedy. I am a decent, loving , caring, loyal and faithful wife, mother and human being.

I spent nearly 35 years of my life caring for sick people, comforting patients crying in pain, sitting by the bedside of dying patents and saving lives with CPR.

Very Hurt


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## Counterfit (Feb 2, 2014)

Hope1964 said:


> You could also do up an estimate of every time you had sex and charge him the going rate for that.



Yes........let the court know that you are essentially a prostitute and that you were never fairly compensated for the tricks that you turned........:smthumbup:


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

When you worked at “his” business, were you paid for that work? I put “his” in quotes because that business probably belongs to both of you.
Between your age and your disability you need some financial support from him.

You cannot work a nurse anymore I assume because of your age and your leg.

This is why a general discussion on alimony is hard to have, each case needs to be taken individually.

Can you get SS disability because of your leg? I would think that you could. That would help quite a bit.

I assume that your husband is near your age. If so he will be retiring soon. So you probably will not get support from him after his retirement. So you are looking at a short term support from him no matter what.

I turn 65 this year and hope to retire by next summer. But I need to supplement my retirement income. So I’m starting a business that uses the skills I have. I look forward to it actually because it will keep me active in the community. With your nursing background there are things that you could do as a business to supplement your income. The nice thing about this kind of business is that you can choose how much you work.

On top of the business I’ve started I’m working with a group of people to start a nonprofit that helps veterans enter into the arts as a career. (I’m a vet and active in the arts so it’s a good fit for me.) So this charity is a good fit for me. I’ve done all the work to set it up and will be filing the Form 1023 to the IRS on Monday. Some of our board members have some big donors lined up, they are just waiting for our 501c3 approval. So things are looking good.

My point in sharing things about my life here is that there is so much you can do now even at your age, even with your disability. 

You sure as h3ll do not need a man like your stbx to make a great rest of your life.


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

EleGirl ~

I never got paid for all the years I worked in his office.
My STBX is 57.
I never looked into SS Disability.

He believes that it is "his" company and not "our" company.

I found out a few months ago that he put "his" company and his life insurance policies into a Trust.

He claims that "his" company is NOT marital property.

We were married in 1983, "we" started "his" company in 1988.VH


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

VeryHurt said:


> EleGirl ~
> 
> I never got paid for all the years I worked in his office.
> My STBX is 57.


I don’t know why women do this (it’s usually women anyway). When you work for a company that you both own you still need to be paid as an employee. It does several things. One is that it pays into your SS. It gives you a verifiable work history. It gives you a verifiable stake in the company.
I know of women who were actually the major force in a company that for some strange reason was only in his name. But the women do not insist on being shareholders, they do not insist on being on the board, nothing. Women need to stop doing this. (I’ll get off my soap box before it get too hot and bothered on this topic.)



VeryHurt said:


> I never looked into SS Disability.


You need to look into it. There are two forms of disability: SSI and SSDI. SSDI is dependent on your own social security and work history. SSI is a low amount, about $700 a month. I think people can get both. A few years ago I helped my 20 year old nephew who is schizophrenic get on SSI. Since he has no work history he cannot get SSDI.


VeryHurt said:


> He believes that it is "his" company and not "our" company.


Well we already know that he’s full of hot air.


VeryHurt said:


> I found out a few months ago that he put "his" company and his life insurance policies into a Trust.
> I think that you can contest this. What state are you in? Have you talked to your attorney about it? I think that I could be considered him squandering marital assets.
> 
> 
> ...


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

VH, nobody gives a rat's arse what he thinks. He can think whatever he wants but the state will decide.
As far as working, you might want to retire at this point and I get that. But don't assume you can't; maybe you can't work in a hospital on your feet but my hb works for a prominent health insurer and they pay RN's a ton of money to sit at a desk or at home and help make healthcare decisions and give health care advice to insureds. It saves the company money to have a nurse help people manage their health and care. Just wanted you to know such a thing is open to you if you want.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

EleGirl:

Live in New Jersey. My Attorney is on it. We have a Forensic Accountant and Trust Attorney on board. This is going to be a costly divorce IF he continues to hid things, stall and lie.

I surely don't want to give extra money to these people. It's up to him to be open and honest. This would be a good time for him to stop the deceit.

VH


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> VH, nobody gives a rat's arse what he thinks. He can think whatever he wants but the state will decide.
> As far as working, you might want to retire at this point and I get that. But don't assume you can't; maybe you can't work in a hospital on your feet but my hb works for a prominent health insurer and they pay RN's a ton of money to sit at a desk or at home and help make healthcare decisions and give health care advice to insureds. It saves the company money to have a nurse help people manage their health and care. Just wanted you to know such a thing is open to you if you want.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks !!

Sitting: OK 

Walking: Those days of running up and down the halls are over !!!


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

VeryHurt said:


> Thanks !!
> 
> Sitting: OK
> 
> Walking: Those days of running up and down the halls are over !!!


Search job postings for companies like BCBS and Aetna and you'll see what I mean. Especially with all of the high risk people coming with the new health care law they'll be looking for more nurses to help these people manage their care. Example: they know John Doe has diabetes, and they know if he doesn't manage it well it'll cost them a lot more money when he gets really sick, but they have no way of knowing if John is taking care of his diabetes. You'll stay on top of John to make sure he's taking care of himself and has everything he needs.....you know people respond if someone checks up on them. Your expertise is quite valuable!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Very Hurt, when my husband and I applied for life insurance, the insurance company sent a nurse out to our house to take blood, our vitals and ask us medical questions. You could look into something like that. Just a thought.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

VeryHurt said:


> EleGirl:
> 
> Live in New Jersey. My Attorney is on it. We have a Forensic Accountant and Trust Attorney on board. This is going to be a costly divorce IF he continues to hid things, stall and lie.
> 
> ...


Good to hear that you are indeed doing what needs to be one. Hopefully you and your attorney can get him to back down and be reasonable.

My brother divorced a couple of years ago in California. I did the forensic accounting for him. His wife was doing a lot of what your husband is doing. We were able to get her to back down quite a bit by building a very good forensic record of where she hid assets, etc. She had to stop most of her nonsense.

I hope it works out for you.


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## Nikita2270 (Mar 22, 2014)

> He believes that it is "his" company and not "our" company.
> 
> I found out a few months ago that he put "his" company and his life insurance policies into a Trust.
> 
> He claims that "his" company is NOT marital property.


VeryHurt:

Concentrate on the relevant things.

That he cheated on you and insulted you during marriage is not relevant to your divorce proceedings. Its unfortunate that it happened and even more unfortunate that you tolerated it but it isn't important to your actual divorce.

Also, stop worrying about what he says or what he thinks. He's not your boss or your daddy, his opinions are irrelevant. The law is relevant and the law is what defines what you are entitled to in a divorce with regard to the equitable split of assets.

Stop worrying about what he thinks. Stop trying to appeal to him...he doesn't matter now...the judge does. Divorce is a business transaction. You need to prove your case...not to your ex but to a judge.

Get a good lawyer...figure out where/what the assets are...and get in front of a judge to get the assets divided. You don't need to communicate to your ex at all. In fact, ending all communication that isn't directly related to parenting would be a healthy thing to do.

One of the biggest mistakes women make in divorce is handling it emotionally....stop. Your primary focus should be proving your case with RELEVANT facts.

I would definitely follow Elegirl's advice and find out about disability. But primarily, it sounds like he's going to try to hide assets...so your main focus should be to ensure that proper disclosure is achieved because its hard to go back after assets you missed later. When men like your ex are getting ready to divorce, its not uncommon for them to hide assets.

Ultimately if you are disabled now, you have every right to alimony. You are not physically able to support yourself, that's a exception to the alimony rules and will be considered.

Get a good lawyer. Start disconnecting emotionally from your ex which is something you should have done a long time ago because he sounds like a jackass. And handle your divorce without the drama but instead like a business transaction and get what you are entitled to.


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## Nikita2270 (Mar 22, 2014)

> I surely don't want to give extra money to these people. It's up to him to be open and honest. This would be a good time for him to stop the deceit.


lol...why would he start being open and honest with you now?

The cost of the divorce due to his mindset is out of your hands. Its going to cost what it costs.

Do what you have to do to get what you're entitled to under the law. Stop listening to or caring about what he thinks. You need to start practicing detachment or you're not going to move on from this in a healthy manner.

Divorce eventually ends...its all about how you move past it.


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

Nikita ~

"Prove your case to the Judge."
"Prove your case with relavant facts."

Sounds like an actually trial?

I am certain that my Attorney can handle this. She is calm, very smart and has been doing this for nearly 30 years.

She tells me to think about my son, my mental health and my physical health and she will take care of my STBX.

VH


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

TurtleRun said:


> Obviously as working mothers you work in your career instead of your family. Not saying that your not there for your family but everyone has different priorities. Stay at home mom's invest in her children and the partner has agreed to support her in this. It is harsh to say "well during the divorce we split everything in the middle." because that is not true. The spouse that worked had time to focus on their career because someone was taking care of everything at home. They gained experience in the working world. Can they split that in the middle ? No. To throw someone under the bus and say "well you chose to stay at home, you have no job experience but you should find a job anyways to support yourself." After you have already invested in a job... as a mother and a wife. Why should someone have to step down in their life style. Especially to those that the working spouse is a fricken cheater, is frankly the way I see it is a slap in the face.


I'm late to respond as I didn't see this until now, but I take extreme offense to your comments. I invested as a wife and a mother as well. Just because I couldn't afford to be a stay at home mother doesn't mean I didn't invest in my child or my marriage. Because I provide for myself and my child my priorities are off? You really said that? I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. 

What I would really like to say in response to you would get me banned, so I will bite my tongue. Do I know the OP's story? Nope, I sure don't. And neither she, nor you know my story either, but you really don't need to. I work full time and do everything SAHMs do on top of that, and if that makes me a poor example of a mother in your eyes then there is obviously no reason for me to waste any more of my time on this thread.


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## kilgore (Dec 14, 2012)

SoVeryLost said:


> I'm late to respond as I didn't see this until now, but I take extreme offense to your comments. I invested as a wife and a mother as well. Just because I couldn't afford to be a stay at home mother doesn't mean I didn't invest in my child or my marriage. Because I provide for myself and my child my priorities are off? You really said that? I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.
> 
> What I would really like to say in response to you would get me banned, so I will bite my tongue. Do I know the OP's story? Nope, I sure don't. And neither she, nor you know my story either, but you really don't need to. I work full time and do everything SAHMs do on top of that, and if that makes me a poor example of a mother in your eyes then there is obviously no reason for me to waste any more of my time on this thread.


I am not sure that Turtle Run meant to offend. I think the thrust of the comment was to defend SAHMs, who are very vulnerable in the wake of a divorce, economically speaking.

That said, the comment WAS offensive, because it suggested that family/marriage is not a priority to a working mom/wife. That is a very unfair assumption. For you, as with many people, it is necessary for both spouses to work. Plus, even if you chose to work (meaning it wasn't an economic necessity), that doesn't mean you didn't care about your family. You were giving your kid(s) a good example - a woman who can be a mom and have a career.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

VeryHurt,

You said that he moved the life insurance. 

You can of course ask the court to have the life insurance moved to you so that you are the owner. That way you make the payments and can be sure that they get paid.

Another thing that you can do is ask that a new policy be established with you as the owner. That way you are not dependent on him for this.


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

SoVeryLost said:


> I'm late to respond as I didn't see this until now, but I take extreme offense to your comments. I invested as a wife and a mother as well. Just because I couldn't afford to be a stay at home mother doesn't mean I didn't invest in my child or my marriage. Because I provide for myself and my child my priorities are off? You really said that? I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.
> 
> What I would really like to say in response to you would get me banned, so I will bite my tongue. Do I know the OP's story? Nope, I sure don't. And neither she, nor you know my story either, but you really don't need to. I work full time and do everything SAHMs do on top of that, and if that makes me a poor example of a mother in your eyes then there is obviously no reason for me to waste any more of my time on this thread.


So very lost

Why are you angry at me?

I didn't make any comments that were negative about you or anyone.

Very hurt


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

VeryHurt said:


> So very lost
> 
> Why are you angry at me?
> 
> ...


So Very Lost did not post that to you. She posted it to TurtleRun because TurtleRun posted this:



TurtleRun said:


> *Obviously as working mothers you work in your career instead of your family. Not saying that your not there for your family but everyone has different priorities. *Stay at home mom's invest in her children and the partner has agreed to support her in this. It is harsh to say "well during the divorce we split everything in the middle." because that is not true. The spouse that worked had time to focus on their career because someone was taking care of everything at home. They gained experience in the working world. Can they split that in the middle ? No. To throw someone under the bus and say "well you chose to stay at home, you have no job experience but you should find a job anyways to support yourself." After you have already invested in a job... as a mother and a wife. Why should someone have to step down in their life style. Especially to those that the working spouse is a fricken cheater, is frankly the way I see it is a slap in the face.


I too was offended by that as were others.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

larry.gray said:


> Pretty lame comeback when it is so divorced from reality. There are plenty of young women claiming to be unable to find men willing to marry. There aren't men making the same claim.


Meh. Your bitterness does not deserve a better comeback. All you have to do is look at the research to see what happens to a woman's economic fortunes following a divorce. 

Like I said, marriage is often a bad proposition but society has brainwashed women that finding a prince charming is the right thing to do.

Personally, I look at it like a partnership and a business deal. Regardless of gender, if one party breaks the partnership, then the split needs to recognize the investment and time. It is not a male female thing though some try to make it so.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

TurtleRun said:


> Obviously as working mothers you work in your career instead of your family. Not saying that your not there for your family but everyone has different priorities. Stay at home mom's invest in her children and the partner has agreed to support her in this. It is harsh to say "well during the divorce we split everything in the middle." because that is not true. The spouse that worked had time to focus on their career because someone was taking care of everything at home. They gained experience in the working world. Can they split that in the middle ? No. To throw someone under the bus and say "well you chose to stay at home, you have no job experience but you should find a job anyways to support yourself." After you have already invested in a job... as a mother and a wife. Why should someone have to step down in their life style. Especially to those that the working spouse is a fricken cheater, is frankly the way I see it is a slap in the face.


Agreed. The operative word is partnership and agreement. There is value in a SAHP, esp if the other spouse has a high powered careet, or one that makes two high powered careers untenable. What happened to the concept of team? 



tennisstar said:


> I guess those of us who are working mothers didn't invest in our families? That's crap!
> 
> I'm tired of the entitlement mentality. If I lose my job and can't find another one that pays as well, our standard of living will go down. That's life. The OP may have to accept a lower standard of living.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Working parents do invest in their families but in a different way...and they don't invest as much in their partner's career. Plus, it is a team. So, if the relationship ends, there may be settlement both ways.

Entitlement? BS.



ScrambledEggs said:


> What grinds me is the spousal support system was designed for a different time/world.
> 
> We have no kids. Her not working was actually an issue in our marriage but I never pressed it because I do really well. She did not want to work and pursue the development of businesses and projects that never turned a profit but did develop her skill set.
> 
> ...


Nope. The laws are not the problem. The way they are applied is the issue.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Very few circumstances make me agree with the concept of alimony. 
If a married couple agree the woman will stay home to raise children and a divorce happens while the children are still minors I believe the wife should get alimony and child support until the children are adults. During that time she should be getting an education for herself and perhaps working part time to establish herself while the children are attending school. She should be preparing for that alimony to end. This alimony is in addition to receiving half the marital assets/liabilities.

If a woman stayed at home to raise her children and the children are long gone when divorce happens,I think she should get temporary alimony and of course half of assets/liabilities acquired during the marriage. I feel temporary alimony should end after no more than 5 years. 

You can switch husband with wife in both examples,fair is fair. If DH and I had children together and he was home w/them I would fully expect to pay him til the children are adults. 
Same goes for the 5 year thing if the children were grown when divorce occurred. 

Now if the divorce happened because the parent at home was cheating I don't think they should get jacksh*t and they should have to pay a penalty of some sort out of their half of the marital settlement.

If the divorce happened because the spouse working outside the home cheated there should be a penalty as well.

ETA: If a spouse didn't work simply bc they didn't have to work (no children involved) I don't think they should get anything other than half the assets and half the liabilities.


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## Nikita2270 (Mar 22, 2014)

> Obviously as working mothers you work in your career instead of your family. Not saying that your not there for your family but everyone has different priorities. Stay at home mom's invest in her children and the partner has agreed to support her in this


Why do kids only need the one SAHP at home anyway?

What about the other parent who has to work their butt off to earn money because one person isn't pulling their financial weight?

Children need BOTH parents...BOTH. And each parent should have both the privilege to spend time with the children. When I was married, part of the reason I carried my fair share of the financial burden was so that the father of my kids didn't have to work a stupid amount of hours to support the family and could have the opportunity to have time with our kids.

I actually am not offended by the comments but I find them ridiculous. I read post after post after post on this forum of women who've sat around not working and not keeping their skills current because they waited for some guy to take care of them and now they're stuck in terrible relationships with no way out. 

SAHP's without a plan in the event of death or divorce are literally gambling with their kid's well-being....and the odds when the divorce rate is around 60% are not in their favor.

As a parent, I take all of my responsibilities seriously...not just cooking and cleaning.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

My wife got alimony because she had not worked while we were married and thus, the state deemed her an invalid and said she had to be supported in the manner to which she became accustomed.

Now, this is a woman who gave no companionship, nothing in the bedroom, didn't cook, didn't clean, didn't wash clothes etc. I bought her a new car and basically, all she did was ride around in that car and eat lunch with various girl friends. 

I've told that story many times... Here's what U'd like to add.

She SAID she deserved alimony because, "I gave you 2 and a half of the best years of my life!!!". She told me that many, many times.


Wow, if that's as good as it gets, I'm really feel sorry for the guy that married after me!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

hambone said:


> My wife got alimony because she had not worked while we were married and thus, the state deemed her an invalid and said she had to be supported in the manner to which she became accustomed.
> 
> Now, this is a woman who gave no companionship, nothing in the bedroom, didn't cook, didn't clean, didn't wash clothes etc. I bought her a new car and basically, all she did was ride around in that car and eat lunch with various girl friends.
> 
> ...


How long did you have to pay alimony to your ex.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

I've been married 30 years too. I'm very worried if I were to D. My h can continue to earn an six figure income well pass retirement as his career will allow this. Me, if I have to go out and get a job, mim wage.

I've been a sahm for the whole time we've been together. Worst job anyone ever could hold done. Only rewards are mine own personal rewards. Even my state is against long term sham's in marriage, as my lawyer explained to me that because we agreed that I would stay home and raise the child, it was an agreement. I am entitled to nothing more than what will end up being only 24% of the assets, he 24%, all the rest will go to the lawyers and to finalize it all. In fact, I was told to move to another state to file as I may do better, because as it stands now, only because I am hearing impaired, can my lawyer get me 1 year of support for rehab back to a mim wage job. Lucky me... 

My h sys he'll take care of me, but I cant trust that, after all, after almost a life time together of what I though a happy marriage, he cheated on me. I'm very worried.

-sammy


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sammy3 said:


> I've been married 30 years too. I'm very worried if I were to D. My h can continue to earn an six figure income well pass retirement as his career will allow this. Me, if I have to go out and get a job, mim wage.
> 
> I've been a sahm for the whole time we've been together. Worst job anyone ever could hold done. Only rewards are mine own personal rewards. Even my state is against long term sham's in marriage, as my lawyer explained to me that because we agreed that I would stay home and raise the child, it was an agreement. I am entitled to nothing more than what will end up being only 24% of the assets, he 24%, all the rest will go to the lawyers and to finalize it all. In fact, I was told to move to another state to file as I may do better, because as it stands now, only because I am hearing impaired, can my lawyer get me 1 year of support for rehab back to a mim wage job. Lucky me...
> 
> ...


How old are you? It makes a difference in the length of time you can get alimony.

I think you need a new attorney. What you were told does not coincide with NY divorce law.

and why on earth would your attorney get 24%?

Is this attorney someone that you husband knows?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

My mom was a SAHM for my first 12 years. 

She was a raving, narcissistic lunatic.

I was glad when she went to work.

Being a SAHP doesn't mean you're a GOOD parent. I teach so I can have the same schedule as my kids. I am not a SAHM nor do I want to be. I would die. I am not that person.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

sammy3 said:


> I've been married 30 years too. I'm very worried if I were to D. My h can continue to earn an six figure income well pass retirement as his career will allow this. Me, if I have to go out and get a job, mim wage.
> 
> I've been a sahm for the whole time we've been together. Worst job anyone ever could hold done. Only rewards are mine own personal rewards. Even my state is against long term sham's in marriage, as my lawyer explained to me that because we agreed that I would stay home and raise the child, it was an agreement. I am entitled to nothing more than what will end up being only 24% of the assets, he 24%, all the rest will go to the lawyers and to finalize it all. In fact, I was told to move to another state to file as I may do better, because as it stands now, only because I am hearing impaired, can my lawyer get me 1 year of support for rehab back to a mim wage job. Lucky me...
> 
> ...


I think you are getting bad advice, Sammy. There are a couple of different options, depending on how your stbx is feeling. Negotiate and mediate while he is feeling guilty. You may want to ask for a lump sum. Moving and then, filing isn't such a bad idea but it is a pretty obvious move and one that your x may not respond well to.

I think if I were you, I would go the mediation route and negotiate hard.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

You weren't a sahm for 30 years. Once the kids were all in school you were a sahw.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I think someone deserves alimony when divorcing leaves the other person completely destitute either because of less work or the person stayed home.

I do not think cheaters should ever get alimony. My uncle paid alimony to my aunt and she was a big cheating b1tch. She and her man moved into my uncle's house and lived off his alimony. She wouldn't marry her new man because she'd lose the alimony. THAT Is fraud, imo.

I think in divorce no one should be left in poverty. If a spouse was supporting the other spouse so s/he could stay home, it seems only natural to pay alimony for a while (not forever) so the parent can get on their feet and get a steady income.

I'd never be in a position for alimony. H and I make about the same. I can support myself if need be. 

Child support is a different story. When H moved out, he did pay child support (which was how much CA would have him pay if we divorced). I won't go without child support. We both made her...and if I'm the sole caregiver, he can pay.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

hambone said:


> My wife got alimony because she had not worked while we were married and thus, the state deemed her an invalid and said she had to be supported in the manner to which she became accustomed.
> 
> Now, this is a woman who gave no companionship, nothing in the bedroom, didn't cook, didn't clean, didn't wash clothes etc. I bought her a new car and basically, all she did was ride around in that car and eat lunch with various girl friends.
> 
> ...


Being a wife, a Congressman, or an investment banker are about the only positions I can think of where people get rewarded for doing a lousy job.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

hambone said:


> My wife got alimony because she had not worked while we were married and thus, the state deemed her an invalid and said she had to be supported in the manner to which she became accustomed.


My cheating x-wife tried to go for alimony because she was a SAHM. That was by her choice, I didn't force her to do so, and actually wanted her to still work. But she wanted to stay home, I agreed.

So when it came time to go in front of the judge, judge asked her, "Did your husband force you to quit your job?". She said, "No, but he agreed that I would be a stay at home mom."
He asked again, "But he didn't force you to stay home?". She said "no". Motion for alimony denied. She had a degree and the ability to get a job, she just didn't want to get a job. Tough toenails as far as the judge was concerned. 

Judge told her she would be getting child support to supplement whatever income she would be getting by going out and getting a job. One of the few things that went this father's way in the divorce.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

VeryHurt said:


> It seems my original intention for my thread has transformed into an Alimony debate and I like it.
> 
> Let me add something:
> 
> ...


Whether you should get alimony or not is a matter of fluctuating opinions.

But you DO deserve half of the marital assets. And hiding them or moving them to a "trust" doesn't protect him.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You weren't a sahm for 30 years. Once the kids were all in school you were a sahw.


??? @ Stay at home women? 

-sammy/ 


Also, Not NY state. 

-sammy


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

tennisstar said:


> I guess those of us who are working mothers didn't invest in our families? That's crap!
> 
> I'm tired of the entitlement mentality. If I lose my job and can't find another one that pays as well, our standard of living will go down. That's life. The OP may have to accept a lower standard of living.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



No, I dont think that is what she is trying to say. I think it the opposite in fact. She really defending that she too had a job. 

I think a lot depends on the age and generation of the marriage. You take a 70 year old women? They too get D. Are you going to make her go out and find a job after a 40 yr marriage? while hubby still can earn a handsome income? say consulting ...

I betcha bottom dollar that 70 year old granny will tell her 20 year old granddaughter never, ever, be a sahm,...make different choices, ... 

-sammy


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You weren't a sahm for 30 years. Once the kids were all in school you were a sahw.


Nothing like devaluing women, and I say that because the vast majority of stay-at-home-spouses are women.
The value they provide to a family has been conservatively estimated at over $120,000 a year.
And have you paid attention to the needs of kids once they are in school?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I devalue women? You're implying that a sahw has les value than a sahm. I never said that. Politically correct much?


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I devalue women? You're implying that a sahw has les value than a sahm. I never said that. Politically correct much?


Oh come on, no political correctness here.
And I'm not implying anything. You stated that a stay-at-home-MOM ends once the kids enter school. The work of parents does not end once a child enters the first grade.
So why did you make the distinction? I assumed (and sorry if this was not the point of your distinction) that the value of either parent staying at home diminishes upon a child entering school. I disagree.

And just so you know I am a working parent.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Maybe the intention was to emphasize that alimony is due for being a sahw, as opposed to just child support for being a sahm??


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> Maybe the intention was to emphasize that alimony is due for being a sahw, as opposed to just child support for being a sahm??


I think that the comment was meant to mean that once the kids are in school alimony should not be considered.


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## Sincererlytrying (Oct 31, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> One thing to keep in mind when you look at the numbers for what it would have cost your husband to hire people to do all that you did as a SAHM is that when you were doing all those things, you were doing it 50% for yourself.
> 
> You see those were also your children you were raising. That was your house that you were cleaning. Your meals too that you were cooking.
> 
> ...


I really appreciate Elegirl's objectivity in this thread. Especially because for almost 2 years my kid's mother has been telling me how much she has been "entitled to receive after sacrificing her career and life for me" (her words, not mine).

I am still in the lengthy divorce process, because an offer of over $50,000 per year in child and spousal support was not enough for her. She didn't think it fair that my attorney imputed a minimum wage income for her. Keep in mind, she's getting nearly 1/2 million in assets, made possible by the death of my mother, which provided money to pay off school loans and allow auto purchases and home improvement, and gave us room to put extra income into retirement accounts. Also, in the nearly 2 years since she decided she didn't want to remain married to me, she has not taken any more college courses, and she can take them at half tuition while married to me. She hasn't worked more than 20 hours per week. There are tons of minimum wage jobs available in our area.

Also, while this lengthy divorce process continues I cannot change any beneficiaries on my retirement or insurance policies, meaning she gets over 2 million if I die.

I recognize that WE decided she could stay home to raise the kids and take care of the household, while I worked my professional career including overnights and evenings up to 50 hours per week. She never came to me as the kids got older and asked about returning to school or part time work. There is a high degree of burnout in my field, but now I have to stick with the high stress work so I can support her in her choice to end the marriage. 

She has a college degree and worked full time for over 10 years before we had kids, 6 of those while married. She did not pay for or support me during my education.

She never cleaned our house and she never mowed the lawn. I paid for housekeepers, landscapers and did a lot of cleaning and mowing myself. I fixed and maintained the house. She has 10 hobbies and filled our home with her projects, like a hoarder. She did not do dishes. I'll give her credit for feeding the kids and cooking dinner for us 4-5 times a week and allowing me some time to have a hobby outside of work and advance my career. She washed laundry and I folded it. I kept the household finances in order, planned the savings and budgeted for the big purchases and took us from a huge school loan debt to financial stability in just a few years. 

She deserves some support and time to get back on her feet, reeducate herself and develop a career of her own. She deserves to maintain the modest suburban standard of living we had for the last several years. The state of Ohio has some rough guidelines and they sound fair.

I have no problem with giving her a year of spousal support for every 3-4 years of marriage. I do think she should be working full time, and not ask the court to have me give her an extra $20-30K, because she doesn't want to work full time.

I was quite insulted that she asked for my entire after tax salary, leaving nothing for me! I was also upset that she decided she should have support for a longer period of time because it would not be good to have the spousal support and child support end within the same year. They are 2 independent issues. Child support is for the kids and not for her. 

I know I'm venting. Just really wanted to give my 2 cents because this thread really hit a nerve with me. I've been separated for over a year now, bought a house smaller than the old one that she's is letting fall apart under her, paid all her expenses until the temporary orders went into effect 6 months ago, have not taken a vacation in 2 years and have held all my retirement and college fund contributions because of the expenses.

I guess I really just get upset when some people say how much they are entitled to get, when I'm not sure they understand the effort the working spouse may have made: less time with my kids (though I get tons more in the current 50/50 parenting plan , I should have got out years ago), long working hours, overnights at work, chronic insomnia, stress, worrying about keeping the job to support the family, a good share of the chores and yardwork, etc. My stay at home spouse got to engage in tons of hobbies, martial arts, parenting groups, watched tons of TV, spent hours on facebook, slept every night in the same bed for > 8 hours, sent the kids to school and went back to bed, etc. A fair distribution of assets and support should also recognize the personal sacrifices and extra efforts of the working spouse too.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Sincererlytrying,

To help put some things in perspective could you answer some questions?

How hold are you and your wife? 

How long were you married?

How old are your children?


Thanks,
Ele


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Sincererlytrying,
> 
> To help put some things in perspective could you answer some questions?
> 
> ...


And if, & why the marriage ended? 

-sammy


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## Dreald (Aug 30, 2012)

vellocet said:


> My cheating x-wife tried to go for alimony because she was a SAHM. That was by her choice, I didn't force her to do so, and actually wanted her to still work. But she wanted to stay home, I agreed.
> 
> So when it came time to go in front of the judge, judge asked her, "Did your husband force you to quit your job?". She said, "No, but he agreed that I would be a stay at home mom."
> He asked again, "But he didn't force you to stay home?". She said "no". Motion for alimony denied. She had a degree and the ability to get a job, she just didn't want to get a job. Tough toenails as far as the judge was concerned.
> ...


Glad to see our court system finally addressing the issue. Unfortunately IMO, the judge is a rare bird!


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## Sincererlytrying (Oct 31, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Sincererlytrying,
> 
> To help put some things in perspective could you answer some questions?
> 
> ...


both 43 at the start of the divorce/separation
Married 18 years at the start of all this (20 years now)
Kids are 12 and 14 yo boys.

I did not force or ask her to be a stay at home spouse. It was a discussion and her choice.

Summer of 2012 she became depressed after the death of her brother. I had already withdrawn from her a little after my job environment changed and because she refused to consider letting me evaluate jobs and opportunities in my field because they would require a move, which is not new to my career. My efforts to get her active, off the couch, to seek counselling or her doctor were taken negatively. As her anger and blame to me worsened I realized there was no solution. We tried counseling and she walked out in anger twice with two different counselors. I waited to see if improved with her doctor's care and antidepressants and individual counseling. As the blame and environment worsened and my own health and stress worsened, I bought a house for myself and moved out. Nearby for the sake of the kids. I still get yelled at for leaving her or ruining her life,etc, when she asked for me to leave and have the divorce. As the counselor told her: "She wants to live like she is married to me, but not live with me!" Selfish.


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