# My body, my choice



## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

Saw a post in another topic, but didn't want to T/J, that dealt with wasting a woman's time when her biological clock is ticking.

Got me to thinking about something that happened to me.

During my divorce I decided I wasn't going to wait and wanted to get a vasectomy over with for future consideration. With all the talk about abortion, and no, this topic isn't about abortion but bares mentioning, and "my body, my choice", that if a man wants a child and his gf wife does not, he has no say.

However, on the flip side a woman can sue her husband and even his doctor if he gets a vasectomy because he denied her future reproductive choice.

When I went in for my vasectomy, the doctor asked if I was married. I said "getting a divorce". He said, "I'll need her to sign off on this".

Come again? I reiterated that we are getting a divorce and he mentioned the legality of it. I told him I'll find a doctor that will do it and it's none of her damn business now, and even when married as far as I'm concerned, if I want a vasectomy. Again, my body, my choice. So he simply had me sign a waiver that we are in fact getting a divorce. Well if he had such a waiver from the get go, why didn't he offer that up???

Ya, like I'm getting my soon to be X-wife's approval to get snipped. What a joke.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

drencrom said:


> Saw a post in another topic, but didn't want to T/J, that dealt with wasting a woman's time when her biological clock is ticking.
> 
> Got me to thinking about something that happened to me.
> 
> ...


That is a total load of crap. A man has to get permission from his wife to get snipped, but she can abort in complete secrecy. I had no idea about that. Some serious hypocrisy on the part of the bodily autonomy crew.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Yep....a lot of that stuff is seemingly very unfair to a guy...

Women have tricked guys (even in ONS) to father a child, without consent, then he would be liable for the care of that child no matter the condition..If he disagrees, he will be put in jail...A woman and man can willingly agree to a have a child, she can change her mind mid pregnancy, not even tell him about it, and he can't do anything it, even if he agrees to pay for all of the expenses and not obligate her to any child support...

Yet if a guy changes his mind, he can't do anything but pay and accept it....

There is no sense in worrying about it, fortunately it doesn't happen that often, but I really do feel for a guy that does get shafted on this type of thing...You are correct, this shouldn't be as one sided as it is...


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## ArthurGPym (Jun 28, 2021)

This is going to be an interesting thread.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I don't remember having to get my wife to sign a consent form for a vasectomy, at least not in the UK. Best decision ever... 

EDIT: *it's not a legal requirement to get your partner's permission*. 









Vasectomy (male sterilisation)


Find out how vasectomy works to prevent pregnancy, how it is carried out and who can have it, plus risks, benefits and its availability on the NHS.




www.nhs.uk


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

That is madness. You’re an adult, and not anyone’s property. How could a doctor be serious about that? I mean, it’s not like the doctor can get pulled into some lawsuit over it.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> I don't remember having to get my wife to sign a consent form for a vasectomy, at least not in the UK. Best decision ever...
> 
> EDIT: *it's not a legal requirement to get your partner's permission*.
> 
> ...


That is the case in the UK.

I tried finding info about this in the US. It isn't clear that it is a legal requirement. It seems it may be more of a CYA on the part of physicians that are afraid of getting sued.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> That is madness. You’re an adult, and not anyone’s property. How could a doctor be serious about that? I mean, it’s not like the doctor can get pulled into some lawsuit over it.


Actually, avoiding a lawsuit seems to be the primary motivator for this.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

drencrom said:


> Saw a post in another topic, but didn't want to T/J, that dealt with wasting a woman's time when her biological clock is ticking.
> 
> Got me to thinking about something that happened to me.
> 
> ...


Until men fight this **** it won't change.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

drencrom said:


> Saw a post in another topic, but didn't want to T/J, that dealt with wasting a woman's time when her biological clock is ticking.
> 
> Got me to thinking about something that happened to me.
> 
> ...


Wow! I had no idea because after our youngest was born, Mrs. C couldn't have anymore and we didn't worry about birth control at all.

So married men can't get vasectomies without approval from his wife?

That's Bull ****e.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

"It is not a legal requirement to involve both partners in the decision-making and consent process. There is a widespread misconception that a wife must consent to her husband undergoing vasectomy."
nih link


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

yes, doesn't look like it's a legal requirement in the USA either, but practitioners seem to recommend that the patient at least speaks to his partner about it first...  









Are Men Legally Required to Ask Their Spouse's Permission for a Vasectomy?


We talked to three leading urologists.




goodmenproject.com


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> Wow! I had no idea because after our youngest was born, Mrs. C couldn't have anymore and we didn't worry about birth control at all.
> 
> So married men can't get vasectomies without approval from his wife?
> 
> That's Bull ****e.


My H did not get my permission. He went to the doctor and got it, I honestly never met the doctor at all. I picked him up after and he took meds and binge watched Game of Thrones for a couple days. I saw some nurses but the doctor was already in his next surgery by the time they let me see him.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> That is madness. You’re an adult, and not anyone’s property. How could a doctor be serious about that? I mean, it’s not like the doctor can get pulled into some lawsuit over it.


It's my impression a doctor can decline to perform elective procedures he'd rather not perform, be they abortions, vasectomies or whatever.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Actually, avoiding a lawsuit seems to be the primary motivator for this.


Well I can kinda see the doctor's side. The truth is, these days anyone can sue anyone else for anything. So I was wrong, he CAN get pulled into a lawsuit without written sign-off. Even if the lawsuit is thrown out and the plaintiff pays your legal fees, you still have to float the cost of your defense AND lose the time and energy to deal with it. Perhaps it's less about permission and more about avoiding the expense and increased insurance from a lawsuit. 

When I had plastic surgery in my early 30s, the nurse and the surgeon both talked to me about what I was having done and why I was doing it. They found out I'd had a recent breakup, and it wasn't until I told them that I'd been saving up for almost 2 years that they said they'd do it. They were pushing back HARD, and when they found out it was planned they told me they didn't want to do surgery on someone who was reacting to something emotional or difficult in their lives. I guess if someone comes in and says, hey, I'm mid-divorce, I want this procedure, I can see where the doctor would question it.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

drencrom said:


> Saw a post in another topic, but didn't want to T/J, that dealt with wasting a woman's time when her biological clock is ticking.
> 
> Got me to thinking about something that happened to me.
> 
> ...


That is totally nuts. Is there actual laws about this or is it an insurance thing for the docs because they don't want to get sued?


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

May depend on the state. 
Sounds like something California, Washington, or Oregon would do.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

> Statutes in Georgia, North Carolina, and Virginia requie the written consent of the patient's spouse to voluntary sterilizations. In the absence of such a statute, no definitive answer can be given.
> However, an individual also has an interest in the procreative ability of his or her spouse. While it appears that the right to consent to lawful medical procedures would be paramount to the interest of the patient's spouse, this matter has not yet been judicially resolved.


And:








Spousal Consent for Vasectomy - Medical Justice Services, Inc.


I recently came across an informed consent form for a vasectomy. The consent form included the expected items; risks, options, benefits, and so on. There was a signature line for the patient. There was a signature line for a witness. Just below was a paragraph of additional text and a signature...




medicaljustice.com


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

It seems to me that it would violate HIPAA to be forced to share a medical issue with a 3rd party, even your spouse.


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## Angie?or… (Nov 15, 2021)

Many doctors will refuse to do a tubal ligation without the husband’s permission, or for a young single woman at all. I didn’t realize they subjected men to the same nonsense.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> It seems to me that it would violate HIPAA to be forced to share a medical issue with a 3rd party, even your spouse.


Yup. That is addressed in the link I posted.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

drencrom said:


> However, on the flip side a woman can sue her husband and even his doctor if he gets a vasectomy because he denied her future reproductive choice.
> 
> When I went in for my vasectomy, the doctor asked if I was married. I said "getting a divorce". He said, "I'll need her to sign off on this".


Does anyone have any actual case examples of a physician being sued for performing a vasectomy without the wife's "permission" in the US?

I question if there is any actual statute law and I doubt if any physician has been successfully sued by a woman for performing a vasectomy. 

I went to a urologist for my snipping and all he said during the consult was that I had to assume that it would result in permanent sterility and that I would not be able to father any more children. (and I said, yeah that's why I'm here, lets get on with it!!) 

He did not say one word in regards to my partner's wishes and in fact, I don't know if he even asked if I was married or partner'd. 

I have the feeling the physician's that want a partner's consent are family practice physicians that also have a physician/patient relationship with the wife and don't want to lose her business. 

It could also place a family practice physician in an potentially medial ethics predicament if the wife were to come in seeking seeking fertility if she were trying to find out why she wasn't getting pregnant if the husband had not been forthcoming about the vasectomy. 

That would place the physician in ethical dilemma as he would have a duty to protect the husband's confidentiality on vasectomy. 

A urologist would have no medical relationship with the wife and there for has no need for her consent.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

red oak said:


> And:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't find the text you posted in the link you gave. I can find this text in your link:
"I can find no state law which mandates spousal approval for a vasectomy."


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

SpinyNorman said:


> I can't find the text you posted in the link you gave. I can find this text in your link:
> "I can find no state law which mandates spousal approval for a vasectomy."


Here’s the link quote is from.








Spouse's consent to sterilization - PubMed


Spouse's consent to sterilization




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov




Edit. Forgot to post the link.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Angie?or… said:


> Many doctors will refuse to do a tubal ligation without the husband’s permission, or for a young single woman at all. I didn’t realize they subjected men to the same nonsense.


I question whether that is actually true in the US today. That may have been the case 40-50 years ago, but I doubt if that is true today. 

The exception again as I stated above that if the physical was a family practice physician (which many do not do any type of invasive surgeries any more) who has a medical relationship with both parties. 

I don't think any Ob/Gyn physician in the US today would deny a young single woman a ligation or refuse to do one without the spouse's authorization. 

Now that being said, physicians are not required to provide ANY procedure on demand or perform one that they have a bona fide personal or religious conviction against. As an example, a catholic physician in a catholic-based health care system, will not be required to provide any contraceptive procedures based solely on patient request without any medical necessity. 

But there's nothing that stops that patient from walking across the street to different physician in a secular practice.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

BigDaddyNY said:


> That is a total load of crap. A man has to get permission from his wife to get snipped, but she can abort in complete secrecy. I had no idea about that. Some serious hypocrisy on the part of the bodily autonomy crew.


(Late to the party, already covered).


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## Angie?or… (Nov 15, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I question whether that is actually true in the US today. That may have been the case 40-50 years ago, but I doubt if that is true today.
> 
> The exception again as I stated above that if the physical was a family practice physician (which many do not do any type of invasive surgeries any more) who has a medical relationship with both parties.
> 
> ...


Happened to my niece last year.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

I see several having issues finding anything. Just FYI: if have google account and/or android go into google and clear all your history on your account. Even location history. (When had android did all that and searches stopped being so targeted to advertising.)
Google uses and algo, that will direct you to what they think you want/should want, based on previous searches, reading material, and articles read. Even movies watched. 
Why I dont use google search engine.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I question whether that is actually true in the US today. That may have been the case 40-50 years ago, but I doubt if that is true today.


_Raises hand_ I asked my obgyn at 23 if he would do a tubal ligation. (Had some stuff going on) He said he wouldn't do it. He said he'd recommend other doctors and he was sure I could find someone who would, but he said that he absolutely would not do that on a healthy 23 year old woman. 

I trust doctors more if they refuse to do things based on their assessment of their patient's mental health, and I do not believe any doctor should be forced to perform any procedure with which they do not agree. I would have SERIOUS questions about any doctor that just takes your money and does whatever. IMHO


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

I didn't need my wife's permission to get it done and almost had it done twice without her knowing about it (no-showed/canceled because I chickened out). So I definitely could have had it done without her knowledge. However there was a requirement that if the man was under 35 or had less than 3 biological children, he had to wait or freeze sperm "just in case". I talked to several clinics/doctors and they all had the same rule. I wasn't impressed... It might not seem like a big deal to freeze sperm but it sort of leaves that chapter open a bit, and it's an additional expense (around $1000, plus $500/year for storage). 

I have to have it redone and that rule wasn't mentioned but I'm over both the age and biological offspring rule now, and it's a repeat, so that could be why. I doubt it has changed in the past year. 

I do know women have a hard time getting their tubes tied/removed when they are young or have few children. I have never heard of them being required to freeze eggs "just in case". Doctors just straight up refuse. I doubt they ask for the husband's permission though.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

red oak said:


> Here’s the link quote is from.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am surprised that there are a few states that apparently do have some statute laws on the books. 

I think the key phrase in that link was the last sentence - "this matter has not been judicially resolved."

That means it has never been successfully prosecuted and there is no prior case law supporting it. 

We need to keep in mind there are still lots of archaic laws still on the books that have no current applicability and are not enforced or prosecuted. There are laws out there that if a horseless carriage encounters a horse draw carriage, that the horseless carriage must get off the road and hide behind the bushes untill the horse has passed and will not be spooked. 

I've been shocked by things that happen in the world but I can't see anyone in today's world being successfully prosecuted or sued for performing a legal and consenting (by the patient) procedure.


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## Angie?or… (Nov 15, 2021)

My husband didn’t need my “permission” for his vasectomy, either, but that was 25 years ago.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> That is a total load of crap. A man has to get permission from his wife to get snipped, but she can abort in complete secrecy. I had no idea about that. Some serious hypocrisy on the part of the bodily autonomy crew.


Well I know a woman can sue if her husband gets a vasectomy without her knowledge. Whether she'll be successful or not who knows. I can't find the article, but I read long ago where a woman did sue, but can't remember the result.

As far as the doctors, I think they tend to try to cover their own arses on it.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

It sounds like there are a lot of regional differences. My second child was a couple of months old when I went in at age 30 for mine. No forms, no permission slip, no sperm storage - Just a quick "Are your sure?" from the doc, and it was slice/cut/crimp/cauterize and a bag of frozen peas.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

Not sure if there is any laws out there, and this article states they can't seem to find any, but it highlights some of the things doctors do to cover themselves, such as the consent form for the procedure including the wife's approval. This is what I told him would not happen.

Spousal Consent for Vasectomy - Medical Justice Services, Inc.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> I don't remember having to get my wife to sign a consent form for a vasectomy, at least not in the UK. Best decision ever...
> 
> EDIT: *it's not a legal requirement to get your partner's permission*.
> 
> ...


I think you are correct, no legal requirement to get consent. But that doesn't stop alot of doctors including spousal consent on their forms, like what happened with me. Again, I can't find the article, but I did find one a long time ago where the wife sued the husband over it, then filed for divorce. I can't remember the outcome of the consent part of it though.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Cletus said:


> It sounds like there are a lot of regional differences. My second child was a couple of months old when I went in at age 30 for mine. No forms, no permission slip, no sperm storage - Just a quick "Are your sure?" from the doc, and it was slice/cut/crimp/cauterize and a bag of frozen peas.


Is this the same doc who lives on the Cletus Family Farm and sells fresh roadside tomatoes? I love that guy, smells to high heaven with booze but man he's funny.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> That is totally nuts. Is there actual laws about this or is it an insurance thing for the docs because they don't want to get sued?


Not sure if there are actual laws, but doctors, though likely not all, include it as part of their informed consent forms having a spot for the wife to sign in approval.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Well I can kinda see the doctor's side.


Honestly, I could too. But I also told the doctor there won't be any consent and I'll just find a different doctor.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Is this the same doc who lives on the Cletus Family Farm and sells fresh roadside tomatoes? I love that guy, smells to high heaven with booze but man he's funny.


It's Tomacco. 

"This tomato tastes like grandma."


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> _Raises hand_ I asked my obgyn at 23 if he would do a tubal ligation. (Had some stuff going on) He said he wouldn't do it. He said he'd recommend other doctors and he was sure I could find someone who would, but he said that he absolutely would not do that on a healthy 23 year old woman.
> 
> I trust doctors more if they refuse to do things based on their assessment of their patient's mental health, and I do not believe any doctor should be forced to perform any procedure with which they do not agree. I would have SERIOUS questions about any doctor that just takes your money and does whatever. IMHO


Yes as I said, physicians are not required to perform ANY procedure on patient request or that they have a personal or religious conviction against. Especially if there is no medical reason to do so. 

Even if there is some level of medical rational, a physician is not required to perform any procedure he does not believe is right to do. 

The key to what you say above is that he can provide referral and that you would not have difficulty in finding someone else who will. 

Also, I believe you are in your 40s or 50s currently. So you are talking about something that happened 20-30some years ago. While I am sure there are still physicians today that will pause and be hesitant to automatically perform a ligation on a 23 year old on demand. I think if the patient were to push the point and agree to counseling and thorough explaination of the risks vs benefits etc, I'm willing to bet that the sizable majority of providers today would ultimately perform the procedure today.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

drencrom said:


> Honestly, I could too. But I also told the doctor there won't be any consent and I'll just find a different doctor.


Well and in your case, he had a waiver for your to sign already. Why lead with "oh you're going through a divorce, get your STB ex's permission"? That seems needlessly combative. He could have explained that he'll need you to sign a waiver releasing him from liability if your ex-wife freaks out over it. You'd probably have shrugged, signed it and thought, "this is just CYA stuff." That doctor handled it badly.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

red oak said:


> And:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where did you read about the statutes in certain states. I didn't find it in the link.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Also, I believe you are in your 40s or 50s currently. So you are talking about something that happened 20-30some years ago. While I am sure there are still physicians today that will pause and be hesitant to automatically perform a ligation on a 23 year old on demand. I think if the patient were to push the point and agree to counseling and thorough explaination of the risks vs benefits etc, I'm willing to bet that the sizable majority of providers today would ultimately perform the procedure today.


And to further your point, this doctor had been my doctor for 5 years at that point. It's not like I was a stranger who just walked in and asked for it, we had an existing relationship. And he didn't stop me from getting it, he just said HE wouldn't do it. So you're correct, there's a lot of circumstance around it that informs the conversation he had with me.

It was almost 30 years ago. 😢 So yeah, it's been a while.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

drencrom said:


> Not sure if there are actual laws, but doctors, though likely not all, include it as part of their informed consent forms having a spot for the wife to sign in approval.


I guess it isn't a huge issue. I would think in most situations the wife is aware and on board. So it's probably an insurance thing. Doctors get sued a lot. Remember G.W.B. talking about Gynecologists getting sued for "Spreading their love".


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

drencrom said:


> Where did you read about the statutes in certain states. I didn't find it in the link.


I forgot to post link.









Spouse's consent to sterilization - PubMed


Spouse's consent to sterilization




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

I got a vasectomy roughly ten years ago. My wife had to sign a form saying she was ok with it.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I guess it isn't a huge issue. I would think in most situations the wife is aware and on board. So it's probably an insurance thing. Doctors get sued a lot. Remember G.W.B. talking about Gynecologists getting sued for "Spreading their love".


Honestly, I don't think it is, but it just pissed me off that I would have had to get her permission, the doctor even insisted on it knowing we were getting a divorce on the grounds of.....that we might NOT end up getting divorced.

I had to assure him the cheating b****h is history.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

drencrom said:


> I think you are correct, no legal requirement to get consent. But that doesn't stop alot of doctors including spousal consent on their forms, like what happened with me.


Yes. I believe doctors have carte blanche about which elective procedures they will or won't perform, and under which circumstances.


> Again, I can't find the article, but I did find one a long time ago where the wife sued the husband over it, then filed for divorce. I can't remember the outcome of the consent part of it though.


Suing your spouse is a lot different from suing spouse's doctor.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> I got a vasectomy roughly ten years ago. My wife had to sign a form saying she was ok with it.


You mean like a post-surgery quality check? Does it come with a tattoo of approval?


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Well and in your case, he had a waiver for your to sign already. Why lead with "oh you're going through a divorce, get your STB ex's permission"? That seems needlessly combative. He could have explained that he'll need you to sign a waiver releasing him from liability if your ex-wife freaks out over it. You'd probably have shrugged, signed it and thought, "this is just CYA stuff." That doctor handled it badly.


The doctor's reasoning was that we might not end up getting divorced and reconciling. I had to assure him that wasn't going to happen. When he asked how I can be so sure, I was specifically blunt about her street walker ways and he was like "Oh....ok, as long as you are sure about that and it doesn't come back to haunt me" LOL


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

drencrom said:


> The doctor's reasoning was that we might not end up getting divorced and reconciling. I had to assure him that wasn't going to happen. When he asked how I can be so sure, I was specifically blunt about her street walker ways and he was like "Oh....ok, as long as you are sure about that and it doesn't come back to haunt me" LOL


I don't know how to react, that's both funny and really sad. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I don't recall having to sign off when my kids father got his vasectomy.

If this is true then it's stupid...it's your body and a vasectomy is your decision alone.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I don't know how to react, that's both funny and really sad. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience.


Honestly, I didn't expect him to cave that easily. I figured if he had a consent form all ready to go that it was protocol to get her signature. If he had required it I would have simply thanked him for his time and walked out.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

I remember having to go with my husband to the first consultation. The doctor asked me directly if I was ok with him having the procedure. He kept on asking us if we were sure we didn't want any more children.

I thought it was weird I had to agree to it, but whatever, we were done having children. We lived in MO at the time.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

people would think that the the main reason why healthcare is so expensive is because Medical doctors/insurance companies want to charge so much is to milk the cow, but the reality of it is the insane cost to healthcare practitioners of their medical malpractice insurance. It's so staggering that some decide not to carry any, and they post it on their office in a place for anyone to see (it's up to you to take it or leave it).

Anyone, for any reason can sue, whether it has merit or not. The main problem with the suing business is the corrupt legal system in the US. Seldom if ever a sue is reviewed by a panel to warrant merit or not, it just proceeds, judges don't give a crap (they are overburdened with cases, and too wrapped up in themselves). They are part of the morally bankrupt legal system in the US.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

getting permission: i think you guyz are confusing it being a legal requirement, vs the insurance company providing his malpractice insurance requiring it.

i am sure some doctor got sued, and the insurance company instituted the rule


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

Rob_1 said:


> people would think that the the main reason why healthcare is so expensive is because Medical doctors/insurance companies want to charge so much is to milk the cow, but the reality of it is the insane cost to healthcare practitioners of their medical malpractice insurance. It's so staggering that some decide not to carry any, and they post it on their office in a place for anyone to see (it's up to you to take it or leave it).
> 
> Anyone, for any reason can sue, whether it has merit or not. The main problem with the suing business is the corrupt legal system in the US. Seldom if ever a sue is reviewed by a panel to warrant merit or not, it just proceeds, judges don't give a crap (they are overburdened with cases, and too wrapped up in themselves). They are part of the morally bankrupt legal system in the US.


I fully agree with this. And to make it worse. Many of these injury attorneys do not want to go to trial because of the backed up courts and time/cost associated with it. Many of them simply tell the doctor or insurance company that for X amount, we will make this disappear. And oftentimes the doc or insurance company will agree simply to avoid the hassle and cost of fighting the case in court.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Talker67 said:


> getting permission: i think you guyz are confusing it being a legal requirement, vs the insurance company providing his malpractice insurance requiring it.
> 
> i am sure some doctor got sued, and the insurance company instituted the rule


No. It is not a legal requirement in the US. It's dependent on what the bylaws of a MD contract with insurance companies are to a point, and their own degree of comfort with what might happens by proceeding with the procedure . It is a legal requirement when under 18 even with the parents consent, and only if it is considered a medical necessity, otherwise no doctor would do it.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

If I'm remembering correctly, the only legal requirements in my state is that the person must be at least 21 years old and the consultation and consent appointment cannot happen on the same day as the procedure. There is a minimum of a 30 day wait after signing the consent, and the consent form is only good for 180 days. 

However, each doctor had the same 35+ or 3 biological kid rule. 

Each state will differ. A friend's wife had twins, and that same day the husband went and got snipped. Consultation and vasectomy were done in the same day, and his wife didn't approve of it.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

allow me to threadjack for a moment, but I want to give you an example of what goes on in the healthcare business. Decades ago, when I was working as a Medical Technologist, the reference laboratory I used to work for would have the sale force out paving the halls of MD practitioners clinics selling the lab testing services. What the lab would offer to sweeten the deal was to make an offer such as: you give me x amount of these tests/month, at this lower price, and we will throw in all urinalysis for free. What does that meant? it meant that once the contract was signed and sealed, the Dr. office has to order and send to our lab all those tests or more but not less; whether the patients needed it or not, or pay the penalties. For the Lab bench techs, thousands of unnecessary urinalysis and other tests to perform per day.

Like I said that was decades ago, but I'm certain that it's business as usual now. CLIA 88 reforms made the lab where I used to work to sell the business because, clinical wasn't as profitable anymore. I never payed attention as to the actual why's of the big multinational to get out of that part of the business, since I was out myself already when it happened, but this gives you an idea.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

drencrom said:


> Honestly, I didn't expect him to cave that easily. I figured if he had a consent form all ready to go that it was protocol to get her signature. If he had required it I would have simply thanked him for his time and walked out.


Just because a doctor or a health company has a spousal consent form, that does not mean that an individual doctor has to obtain one or will be barred from performing the procedure if the man insists on it. There is still physician/patient privaledge. 

Medical consent forms are more to send a message to the patient than any real legal teeth. It's basically saying, "your signiture shows that we talked about it and you agreed to it so please don't take any action against me because of it." But it doesn't actually carry a lot of legal weight if something were to go wrong or if someone challenges it. It's more of a message to patients to play nice than it is a shield of protection for the doctor. A lot of it is simply formality and something to appease the paperwork people that work in the basement and to appease the insurance companies and the medical group's lawyers. 

I doubt if any doctor has been successfully sued by a spouse and I really doubt if any doctor has had any criminal or state regulatory actions filed for doing a vasectomy on a consenting patient. 

Even if a woman signs a consent, she can still raise a stink and say that she was pressured into it somehow or that she wasn't properly informed. She can lodge complaints or even file suits,,,, but that doesn't mean that she will win or that any formal action will be taken against the Dr. But it's still a pain in the azz, still bad for business and still costly to defend. 

Doctors are in kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't position. If they don't get the spouse's consent, they can have people howling on their doorstep, filing complaints and making a stink that is bad for business and puts them on the defensive. 

If they do ask for spousal consent,


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

Unless I tell a doctor that my wife, or in my case an x-wife, is to make my medical decisions for me, it's an insult to even try to say they need her consent for MY medical request.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

drencrom said:


> Unless I tell a doctor that my wife, or in my case an x-wife, is to make my medical decisions for me, it's an insult to even try to say they need her consent for MY medical request.


No adult needs to be in charge of medical decisions for another adult unless the first adult is incapacitated and the second adult has the legal right to make those decisions.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

TexasMom1216 said:


> That is madness. You’re an adult, and not anyone’s property. How could a doctor be serious about that? I mean, it’s not like the doctor can get pulled into some lawsuit over it.


Actually, I asked my doctor WITH my exH present to get my tubes tied in my early 30s (he was afraid of getting a snip) and SHE refused, no waiver was offered.

This is a liability thing, they don't want to get sued if you change your mind.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> Actually, I asked my doctor WITH my exH present to get my tubes tied in my early 30s (he was afraid of getting a snip) and SHE refused, no waiver was offered.
> 
> This is a liability thing, they don't want to get sued if you change your mind.


That's the conversation I had with my doctor 1000 years ago. I can understand why doctors are hesitant to do that with someone that young. For women it's an invasive surgery, and there are (usually) a lot of other options that aren't as invasive or permanent. Even if we didn't have the obvious issues we have with people suing everyone for every little thing, it's a permanent thing that you could really regret, I can see them advising it only as a last resort. I have more respect for doctors who refuse to do things they believe are mistakes. You can always go to another doctor.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

TexasMom1216 said:


> That's the conversation I had with my doctor 1000 years ago. I can understand why doctors are hesitant to do that with someone that young. For women it's an invasive surgery, and there are (usually) a lot of other options that aren't as invasive or permanent. Even if we didn't have the obvious issues we have with people suing everyone for every little thing, it's a permanent thing that you could really regret, I can see them advising it only as a last resort. I have more respect for doctors who refuse to do things they believe are mistakes. You can always go to another doctor.


I knew I never wanted to be a mother since I was 16 yrs old, but it didn't matter. In any case, I found out not long after that it was highly unlikely to happen, due to serious medical issues. I'm all set now, so all good.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

bobert said:


> However, each doctor had the same 35+ or 3 biological kid rule.


I'm kind of interested in finding out who is making these "rules."

Is it an actual state statute? (doubtful)

Is it an article of the state's medical examiner's board? (possible)

Is it a reccomendation of the liability insurance carrier? (a little more likely)

Is it a policy of that particular clinic or health care company in an attempt to avoid controversy? (most likely) 

I doubt if it is rule of law. 

The thing is, a guy doesn't have to disclose the number of biological kids he has. It's questionable whether anyone will even be able to ask before too long as privacy laws and the protection of personal information becomes more strong. 

It is pertinent medical information how many pregnancies a woman has had and how many live births she has had. 

It's not pertinent medical information to know how many kids a man has fathered. 

A guy can simply decline to answer that guestion.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Over 35 is classified as "high risk." That's probably not an arbitrary guideline, but I'm just speculating. I don't know about the number of kids.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I'm kind of interested in finding out who is making these "rules."
> 
> Is it an actual state statute? (doubtful)
> 
> ...


From what I remember, the state does not require men to store sperm if they are under 35 or have less than 3 biological children. All they require is the man to be over the age of 21, and a 30 day waiting period. With every doctor in my area requiring it though, I doubt it was up to the individual doctor/clinic. You would think others would be glad to take the turn-away's and make more money. So if it's required/recommended by their liability insurance carrier, would all doctors in the area have the same carrier? I don't know, but I can't see all carriers having the same set of rules. I could be wrong though. 

You're right that a man doesn't have to disclose how many children he has, but if he doesn't the doctors can refuse him as a patient. A man could easily lie about it though because I wasn't asked for any proof about how many children I have or if they are biologically mine or not. I was asked how many children I had, and at the time it was three. Then I was asked if they were all biologically mine and I said one was not. 

So I was told that I'd have to wait or freeze sperm. I understand the reasoning, but if I decide I am done at 0-2 biological children that should be my choice. If I have a step-daughter who I view and raise as my child, that shouldn't impact the "under 3 biological children" rule. That daughter is now adopted and legally mine but it wouldn't matter for that rule. 

I do agree that it is more important to know how many pregnancies and births a woman has had. My wife has been asked that question many times so I'm sure they have their reasons. It probably is important to know if a man has been able to father children or not though. Probably less important, though. I had a vasectomy that failed and after that I was asked questions to try and figure out if there was some sort of defect, injury, previous surgery (hernia, etc.) that could have caused it to happen. Most don't fail but if a man has been having unprotected sex for years and didn't manage to knock anyone up, knowing that ahead of time might be useful so they know to look out for certain issues while doing the vasectomy.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

bobert said:


> From what I remember, the state does not require men to store sperm if they are under 35 or have less than 3 biological children. All they require is the man to be over the age of 21, and a 30 day waiting period. With every doctor in my area requiring it though, I doubt it was up to the individual doctor/clinic. You would think others would be glad to take the turn-away's and make more money. So if it's required/recommended by their liability insurance carrier, would all doctors in the area have the same carrier? I don't know, but I can't see all carriers having the same set of rules. I could be wrong though.


I live in a relatively conservative state that doesn't buy into sillyness very often so I am not familiar with any of that even though I myself have worked in the medical field for 40 years. I was 40 years old but I don't think the urologist even specifically asked me if I was even married or had any kids at all. He had me sign forms that said I understood that I would no longer be able to father children, but he did not delve into my personal life and I did not need to disclose any of that information on any kind of form or anything. 

Different areas may be different and as I said earlier in the thread, a family practice physician may have different practices since they also have a doctor/patient relationship with the wife. Although I don't know if many family practice physicians perform vasectomies anymore. They did 30 years ago but I don't know if they do anymore. 

What I will say about the health care industry though is that it is very conservative and resistant to change and a big part of any practice is governed by the concept of standard of care. What that means is any given provider, clinic, medical group, hospital, health care company etc etc is going to fall into lock step with what every other doctor, clinic, hospital, company etc is doing. There are very few outliers or mavericks in the medical industry.


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## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

Sounds like BS.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Hell, I just used some tin snips and a soldering iron, and a mirror and did it my damn self.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Deejo said:


> Hell, I just used some tin snips and a soldering iron, and a mirror and did it my damn self.


Not just anyone can be 'Ron Burgundy' hard. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

Deejo said:


> Hell, I just used some tin snips and a soldering iron, and a mirror and did it my damn self.


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