# My wife said I'm obsessed about sex....



## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

We go around and around about it. We have sex, no where near sexless, but I want what I consider more and probably still below what Kinsey would consider average. Married 20 years together 25, still same physically and children grown and in teens (high school & university).

We have a very good marriage for the most part otherwise and are affectionate and enjoy time together. Sex is good when we have it and all the parts work for both (no faking I promise).

This is not a what can I do to get more sex and the usual blather, just an epiphany I had.

My response next time I hear it will be....

_*"I am not obsessed about sex..... I am obsessed about the lack of sex!!!"*_


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

How old are both of you and how often in a given week do you refer to sex and or initiate sex?


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

When people communicate in those kinds of accusatory judgment calls - - "You're obsessed!" or whatnot all they want to do is shut you up. Don't pick a fight with them on those grounds, it's a no-win.


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## Mistys dad (Dec 2, 2011)

What's wrong with being obsessed with sex?

Especially with your wife?


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

It came from our conversation while out for dinner. We are together almost continually, we talk about most everything and she hates these sites and the fact I am on them, more so to give advise then ask for it (to be honest). 

So I am not that interested the other night in all conversations being about the kids (usually my parenting is wrong) or what we need to do with the house (painting, new furniture, expenditures....), my work or our families or friends (wife doesn't like gossip), so I will bring up some things I have read here or elsewhere and sometimes it is sex I want to talk about and our future and that I have no interest in an MLC and you know what will trigger it? Not feeling fulfilled at home and that sex is very important. Not the be all and end all, but it is in the top three things I want going forward (health, financial stability & sex with my spouse). Am I missing something?


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Havesomethingtosay said:


> It came from our conversation while out for dinner. We are together almost continually, we talk about most everything and she hates these sites and the fact I am on them, more so to give advise then ask for it (to be honest).
> 
> So I am not that interested the other night in all conversations being about the kids (usually my parenting is wrong) or what we need to do with the house (painting, new furniture, expenditures....), my work or our families or friends (wife doesn't gossip either), so I will bring up some things I have read here or elsewhere and sometimes it is sex I want to talk about and our future and that I have no interest in an MLC and you know what will trigger it? Not feeling fulfilled at home and that sex is very important. Not the be all and end all, but it is in the top three things I want going forward (health, financial stability & sex with my spouse). Am I missing something?


What are the top three things she wants going forward?

And what is the difference in amount between what you want and she wants?

And is she generally unwilling to compromise on that? If so, why?


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Nope, many of us have the same issue I am afraid. My wife thinks I am some sex-crazed lunatic too. Meanwhile she would be happy if we never had it again I think.. It has REALLY started to take a toll on me (and therefore our marriage) in the last 2 years.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

Really I do not want to talk about my situation, outside to say there is no right answer and I hope for some improvement. 

Right now I would say we are what most would consider quite lucky. Good kids, health (ours & extended families), okay extended families, friends and no financial or work issues (*for now knocking furiously on wood*).....

Just painting a picture as I don't think explaining my situation in detail will result in anything profound or outstanding.

I was pretty proud of my line that I highlighted, which I thought others would find cute or resonate.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Same here, but trust me, it WILL!


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Havesomethingtosay said:


> Really I do not want to talk about my situation, outside to say there is no right answer and I hope for some improvement.
> 
> Right now I would say we are what most would consider quite lucky. Good kids, health (ours & extended families), okay extended families, friends and no financial or work issues.....
> 
> ...


Have you used the new line on her yet?

If so, was her reaction any different?

I guess you could call her 'obsession' comment one of those fitness tests (unless of course you truly are obsessed ... in which case it would just be honesty  ).

But handling her comment non-chalantly, humorously, and cheerfully is the best way to go. Good for you.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I don't get the whole "sex crazed" shet. lolll You are married! Sex is part of marriage!

I must be a sex crazed mate!!! Thankfully hubs is too. But damn, those women irritate me. What's more important? TV shows? dang.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

Havesomethingtosay said:


> ...Really I do not want to talk about my situation, outside to say there is no right answer and I hope for some improvement....


I do notice your comment about '...I am not that interested the other night in all conversations being about the kids (usually my parenting is wrong) or what we need to do with the house (painting, new furniture, expenditures....), my work or our families or friends (wife doesn't like gossip)...'

Not that interested? Really? You see this over and over again. Where there is an emotional disconnect. If your wife feels like you are not giving her the time of day on family issues - the unsurprising result of reduced closeness is the result. You are supposed to be raising a family and maintaining your home... and all you can talk about is getting laid more.

Get your house in order regarding the kids and address your 'wrong parenting' (as she sees it - but you should at least come to some agreement on tactics) and make some plans about painting the house and work issues and maybe you will make some progress. Your attempts to redirect the conversation to your 'obsession with lack of sex' will fail miserably if I were to make a prediction. It totally misses the point.

This looks like the old 'chicken and egg' complaints. "well, if we had sex more, maybe I would be inclined to listen to her more." Sorry bud, doesnt work that way. Never has, never will. Not trying to be harsh - just calling it like I see it.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

You are missing "we", what do you and your wife need going forward. Not just you, unless you will be going forward without her. We know what you want but what about what your wife wants? If you plan to continue your life with your wife along side, finding out what is on the top of her list of must haves. 

You dismiss things she says as unimportant to you and gather enthusiasm when the talk turns to sex and expect her reaction to be one of rapt attention. Of course may to be obsessed with sex. You may also appear self-centered.

I think you need to think in terms of what you both want. If you want more and it is just for you then you may not get more. I doubt if she feels that she needs to change because you said so. Your wanting more sex is for you, but you need her to want more sex too. What are the positive incentives for you both?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

If you don't want to provide details of your situation, it will be difficult to give sound advice.

Have you two read His Needs, Her Needs? It may provide insight into the disconnect between you and your wife. Willard Harley explains that sex is a primary need for many men, and hopefully your wife will come to understand that this is how you connect with her. 

I also agree with Anotherguy that you may not be meeting your wife's emotional needs, and so she does not want to have sex very often. Do you truly listen to her? Do you make her feel cherished?

You have to understand what makes your wife tick before you can tackle the problem of why she does not long for more sex.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

anotherguy said:


> I do notice your comment about '...I am not that interested the other night in all conversations being about the kids (usually my parenting is wrong) or what we need to do with the house (painting, new furniture, expenditures....), my work or our families or friends (wife doesn't like gossip)...'
> 
> Not that interested? Really? You see this over and over again. Where there is an emotional disconnect. If your wife feels like you are not giving her the time of day on family issues - the unsurprising result of reduced closeness is the result. You are supposed to be raising a family and maintaining your home... and all you can talk about is getting laid more.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

@ Haveto ~

This is *really* the way you need to go if you ever want any hope of getting more intimacy in your marriage.

I know you didn't want unsolicited advice on how to improve things, which that kind of response and attitude in and of itself may be indicative of why there's a problem with not being able to increase sex in your marriage. Maybe instead of having something to say, there should be some being willing to listen to as well.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

He dosen't want to hear anything about his situation he just wants to have his say. 

I wonder how his wife feels about that. He has lots to say but not a lot to listen to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

That's why she keeps her legs closed. he doesn't open his mind.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

anotherguy said:


> I do notice your comment about '...I am not that interested the other night in all conversations being about the kids (usually my parenting is wrong) or what we need to do with the house (painting, new furniture, expenditures....), my work or our families or friends (wife doesn't like gossip)...'
> 
> Not that interested? Really? You see this over and over again. Where there is an emotional disconnect. If your wife feels like you are not giving her the time of day on family issues - the unsurprising result of reduced closeness is the result. You are supposed to be raising a family and maintaining your home... and all you can talk about is getting laid more.
> 
> ...


Geez you people take things so literally. We talk about everything all the time. I was having fun in saying hat these things are important things that are continually at the fore in all marriages and a part of all conversations. 

Do you not get sarcasm or tongue in cheek when someone writes it.

I am so f&^$ing aware of "what I have to do" and work on it every day. 

Women if they don't want more sex (and some men), will just throw out one of those pat lines. I love my wife, she is wonderful. She is not perfect, but I look at 95% of the things that "bother" me as no more then cute quirks or just the way she is.

I'd like and am sure I am the same way (i.e. her dislike for me being on sites like this and hating all "Advise Sites and Authors like Dear Abby".


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Havesomethingtosay said:


> I'd like and am sure I am the same way (i.e. her dislike for me being on sites like this and hating all "Advise Sites and Authors like Dear Abby".


But how will you ever solve your problem if you don't think about the root of it? You seem to believe that it should just happen, but that is not how relationships work. You have to look at the underlying emotions, or you will never get anywhere with what is really going on with your wife.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

lovesherman said:


> But how will you ever solve your problem if you don't think about the root of it? You seem to believe that it should just happen, but that is not how relationships work. You have to look at the underlying emotions, or you will never get anywhere with what is really going on with your wife.


Of course I think about it all the time and work on it. She is the one who is not as concerned as I am. 

Is this not the root of the problem for all here on TAM. I don't know any Husband/Wife coming here together and posting He said/She said conversations, and doesn't discuss it with others....

I'm not puffing out chest or anything, but most say to my spouse how good a husband I am and with her bawdy friends when she drinks and intimates that we don't have too much sex (these are sexless or low sex single women) will say "your poor husband"


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

This is INTERNET. How the heck are we supposed to hear your sarcasm?

:rofl:

Now I see the problem.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

that_girl said:


> This is INTERNET. How the heck are we supposed to hear your sarcasm?
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> Now I see the problem.


Because I am not a shallow (except when it comes to sex) indifferent husband. 

I thought it was fairly obvious I was making a comment that these conversations are what all married people with kids talk about ALL THE TIME. 

This is why I do not start threads on TAM asking for advise on my marriage as that is all it is, advise from people who mean well (me too) who don't know the minutiae of the relationship. I get plenty from others' posts and try and give my opinion. 

I just thought my tongue in cheek response the next time she brings up the obsessed with sex was cute and apropos.

Obsessed to me would be watching porn non-stop, buying all sorts of "sex toys" and asking for all sorts of variety in bed. Not me at all and certainly not her.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Enchantment,
This is a classic case of an "overheated" relationship. 

HaveSomething says: "We are together almost continually"

IME: Too much proximity in a low sex marriage - almost guarantees the marriage remains low sex. 

And however he is doing it he has created a sexual environment where "she" is perceiving him as needy/obsessed. 

The fact that she feels comfortable telling her girl friends that they "rarely" have sex is interesting. If my W told her friends that (sans a health condition) I would expect their perception to be that I am either not important enough for her to make the effort OR that I am bad in bed. Either way if my WIFE told mutual friends that I wanted to have sex frequently and it wasn't happening - I would calmly tell her that the price for publicly embarrassing me would be the truth. That she would now tell me the truth as to "why" that was. But hey thats just me. Not much for being publicly humiliated by my W. 


I doubt this is a case of being bad in bed. It simply comes across as a "clingy/turnoff" type interaction pattern. Bringing up the "our sex life is lame" conversation for the hundreth time out at dinner is an expression of fear. The "HD" partner is talking because they are afraid to be "doing". And the first part of "doing" sure as heck is the opposite of being "together almost continually"




Enchantment said:


> What are the top three things she wants going forward?
> 
> And what is the difference in amount between what you want and she wants?
> 
> And is she generally unwilling to compromise on that? If so, why?


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Enchantment,
> This is a classic case of an "overheated" relationship.
> 
> HaveSomething says: "We are together almost continually"
> ...


Not about me and complaining. I know you mean well and have a dynamic that works. My spouse knows and this time I pushed a little more in a loving positive manner (your parlance). I plan on saying no more nor pulling a 180, but being a man. 

This was more that I was proud on my play on words. 

Please don't worry about lecturing giving advise or commenting on my plight as I will ignore it or laugh and slough it off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Enchantment,
> This is a classic case of an "overheated" relationship.
> 
> HaveSomething says: "We are together almost continually"
> ...


:iagree:

Yah...agree with you, MEM.

@Havesomethingtosay ~
You should know by now that most of us aren't able to keep our mouths shut on here when we see something and feel compelled to make a comment. 

I guess we all have something to say too. Hope you're listening and can take any constructive comments to heart...you might be able to find what you seek. 

Best wishes.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

BTW much of why my spouse thinks I'm obsessed is that I read this site!!!!!

This you are all guilty by association of being obsessed.


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## Jeff74 (Feb 11, 2012)

What amount of sexual frequency in your marriage would seem optimal to you? What amount of sexual frequency would seem optimal to your wife?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

Sexless is 10X/yr or less..... I have much more...... Average in Kinsey for cohabitating people my age (40's) is 1-3X's/wk, and I am below that.....

So that hopefully answers any questions, though as stated I was more proud of my turn on words then discussing the situation.


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## SoCalHubby (Jan 7, 2012)

Okay, okay, you're proud of your turn of words. Personally I'm not impressed, and I doubt your wife would be either. If you want to improve your situation, read Married Man's Sex Life. Dude, you're too beta. Make yourself more desirable and your wife will desire you more. Cute phrases are, well, cute. But having good/great sex w your wife at least 2-3 x per week is healthy happiness and mutual fulfillment. Settling for less is a way of saying you deserve less.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

Havesomethingtosay said:


> We go around and around about it. We have sex, no where near sexless, but I want what I consider more and probably still below what Kinsey would consider average. Married 20 years together 25, still same physically and children grown and in teens (high school & university).
> 
> We have a very good marriage for the most part otherwise and are affectionate and enjoy time together. Sex is good when we have it and all the parts work for both (no faking I promise).
> 
> ...


Lol at women who say hubby is obsessed with sex and try to make it seem like a problem when most of time its not. If only they could see how many women are in marriages and failed relationships with a lack of sex where they are left wondering if they are good enough.

People need to be grateful for what they have and life can strip you and honestly life should strip some people of what they take for-granted.


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Enchantment,
> This is a classic case of an "overheated" relationship.
> 
> HaveSomething says: "We are together almost continually"
> ...


If you had a wife who acted like that you should divorce her any sane man would. Just like any sane woman would divorce a husband who cheated on her or talked about negative light of her to friends. 

But hey the world is filled with trash so its whatever others can live their lives how they want and be filled with misery.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

I hate clarifying or being misquoted/misrepresented. 

Mem11363 - I said *not too much sex*, which is in my parlance much different from *rarely* (which intimates sexless). 

As for the story I conveyed about my spouse and her friends, it was an anecdote, showing women having fun, her friends considering from what they see of me and what my wife says, that I am a "good catch" (right or wrong). It is said good-naturedely and in fun amongst the girls and all she does it talk me up, thus "your poor hubby" comments. 

The fact you take it literally I have to disagree with, and thus the need to clarify.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

yes yes too much. Also I have too much money, too many people adore me and I have too many Nobel prizes.


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## MrsOldNews (Feb 22, 2012)

SoCalHubby said:


> Settling for less is a way of saying you deserve less.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well put


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Havesomethingtosay said:


> My response next time I hear it will be....
> 
> _*"I am not obsessed about sex..... I am obsessed about the lack of sex!!!"*_


Actually, that is not the appropriate response. Obsession and addiction are terms thrown around to impart shame and avoid the root issue. You do not want those words associated with your sex life in any manner.

What you need to do is affirm your wants and needs as equal to hers. Tell her that the sex problem is enough to work through, your goal is satisfaction, and achieving your goal is a priority.

Add that you simply will not tolerate disrespect (which is what calling you obsessed and belittling your sex drive really is).


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

anotherguy said:


> Not that interested? Really? You see this over and over again. Where there is an emotional disconnect. If your wife feels like you are not giving her the time of day on family issues - the unsurprising result of reduced closeness is the result. You are supposed to be raising a family and maintaining your home... and all you can talk about is getting laid more.
> 
> Get your house in order regarding the kids and address your 'wrong parenting' (as she sees it - but you should at least come to some agreement on tactics) and make some plans about painting the house and work issues and maybe you will make some progress. Your attempts to redirect the conversation to your 'obsession with lack of sex' will fail miserably if I were to make a prediction. It totally misses the point.
> 
> This looks like the old 'chicken and egg' complaints. "well, if we had sex more, maybe I would be inclined to listen to her more." Sorry bud, doesnt work that way. Never has, never will. Not trying to be harsh - just calling it like I see it.


Yes he should listen to her and resolve the parenting issues. But making plans to paint the house and otherwise do XYZ is going too far. That sends the message that he needs to earn sex.

He should handle the issue however his home situation allows. If painting the house (could cost $4k or more) is not feasible right now saying "I hear your concerns but that's just not in the budget at this time" should be sufficient.

Sex is not something that should depend on things potentially out of our control. If (beyond feeling like she's heard) she really cannot get in the mood with the walls a little dingy or extra money in the bank she has HUGE issues.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

DTO said:


> Yes he should listen to her and resolve the parenting issues. But making plans to paint the house and otherwise do XYZ is going too far. That sends the message that he needs to earn sex.
> 
> He should handle the issue however his home situation allows. If painting the house (could cost $4k or more) is not feasible right now saying "I hear your concerns but that's just not in the budget at this time" should be sufficient.
> 
> Sex is not something that should depend on things potentially out of our control. If (beyond feeling like she's heard) she really cannot get in the mood with the walls a little dingy or extra money in the bank she has HUGE issues.


DTO, not sure if you read my response, but I was using those examples tongue in cheek as what many spouses spend time discussing and the issues that surround everyday life in general. Talking about kids often is a point of contention and ask any man and they will probably tell you (again laughing) that they usually do/want the "wrong" thing when parenting when there is a disagreement.......


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> You are missing "we", what do you and your wife need going forward. Not just you, unless you will be going forward without her. We know what you want but what about what your wife wants? If you plan to continue your life with your wife along side, finding out what is on the top of her list of must haves.
> 
> You dismiss things she says as unimportant to you and gather enthusiasm when the talk turns to sex and expect her reaction to be one of rapt attention. Of course may to be obsessed with sex. You may also appear self-centered.
> 
> I think you need to think in terms of what you both want. If you want more and it is just for you then you may not get more. I doubt if she feels that she needs to change because you said so. Your wanting more sex is for you, but you need her to want more sex too. What are the positive incentives for you both?


The positive incentive should be his happiness, no? Should it not be enough that she is the only one that gets to be with him?

The OP here is faithful to his wife. That faithfulness itself (assuming she, like 99% of married people, expects it as a condition of marriage) creates a responsibility. Absolutely he needs to create a situation conducive to getting his needs met.

However, she is the one with the low drive. She is responsible for upping her drive because she has the control. The OP cannot make his wife do anything. That is actually an establised fact (read a management or psychology book on the topic).

We agree that the OP needs to learn what his wife wants. He needs to talk with her and figure out what is doable given their situation. Then he needs to motivate her by incentivizing appropriate behavior and discouraging inappropriate behavior.

The difference in our approaches is not trivial. We agree he needs to help the process. But the difference is I recommend he hold his wife accountable for change. If he does what she asks and the sex does not follow (a good possibility), he then needs to reframe the discussion from that perspective.


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## interested (Mar 20, 2012)

I can understand when you are married you expect to be having more sex than when you were single. More then once a week. But just think about if you were single, divorced or widowed. Would you get to have sex with someone you love more then once a week? I have been divorced for 12 years and only wish I could have sex with some one I love once a week, or once a month. I see a lot of posts from HD partners who maybe need to think about how they would get their needs met if they were not married. It would be even harder don't you think?


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Nope


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Havesomethingtosay said:


> Of course I think about it all the time and work on it. She is the one who is not as concerned as I am.
> 
> Is this not the root of the problem for all here on TAM. I don't know any Husband/Wife coming here together and posting He said/She said conversations, and doesn't discuss it with others...



Hi there Havesomethingtosay,

I absolutely get you on this; I sensed the situation even before I read all your posts. I stress that you cannot make her do anything. You start the process of change by explaining what you need from her and finding out what she needs to make that happen. Then all you can do is reward good behavior and not reward bad behavior (and we tend to screw up this last part). Not seing results does not mean you are doing something wrong.

I've taken several management courses over the past year (including two on organizational behavior) for my MBA and the principles are applicable to all sorts of organizations, not just businesses. As much as I do not feel that a marriage is a business relationship, this is the same as a workplace situation.

You are going to get truly good long-term results only if your sexual happiness really matters to your wife (meaning she is willing to make lasting change for you). This is not to say your wife should not derive any personal benefit from meeting your need; but, those personal benefits should be secondary to the satisfaction she gets from being a good wife in general and / or meeting your needs in particular.

The incentives and disincentives are really there to supplement the innate satisfaction she needs to have. If the rewards become the sole motivation for doing what you want, then you have a wife who truly is just "punching the clock". Her effort will be aimed at maximizing her utility and not being a good wife in itself. If it gets to that point, you will have to decide that your relationship is workable or that you need to move on.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

interested said:


> I can understand when you are married you expect to be having more sex than when you were single. More then once a week. But just think about if you were single, divorced or widowed. Would you get to have sex with someone you love more then once a week? I have been divorced for 12 years and only wish I could have sex with some one I love once a week, or once a month. I see a lot of posts from HD partners who maybe need to think about how they would get their needs met if they were not married. It would be even harder don't you think?


You're barking up the wrong tree on this one.

I consider myself HD (definitely was HD in my marriage) and averaged once per month over the span of my marriage. So, I am in that group you mention above. My thoughts are:

1) Your argument above does not address the quality issue. For me, the only worthwhile sex is with someone who wants me physically (more than just bonding or having a couple of kids). Once I finally realized that my ex simply did not want me (no matter what I did), I did not care whether I got it or not.

2) Your argument does not address the emotional toll of being with someone who detests being with you. I am not talking about being emotionally fused; long before my ex left I had stopped tying my mood, outlook, and self-image to how she felt about me. I am talking about the practical aspects. The tension of sharing space with someone who dislikes you is draining. Also, now I am free to find someone who actually will want to be with me. I never would have had that freedom had I stayed married and pretended like everything was fine.


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## maryowen7002 (Mar 14, 2012)

somtimes its a communication issue, dont always let the other partner ask for sex first you need to make the first move.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is gold. 24 karat

This is what I experience. The "making you happy" gives me joy. And this is true for both of us.


QUOTE=DTO;638080]Hi there Havesomethingtosay,

I absolutely get you on this; I sensed the situation even before I read all your posts. I stress that you cannot make her do anything. You start the process of change by explaining what you need from her and finding out what she needs to make that happen. Then all you can do is reward good behavior and not reward bad behavior (and we tend to screw up this last part). Not seing results does not mean you are doing something wrong.

I've taken several management courses over the past year (including two on organizational behavior) for my MBA and the principles are applicable to all sorts of organizations, not just businesses. As much as I do not feel that a marriage is a business relationship, this is the same as a workplace situation.

You are going to get truly good long-term results only if your sexual happiness really matters to your wife (meaning she is willing to make lasting change for you). This is not to say your wife should not derive any personal benefit from meeting your need; but, those personal benefits should be secondary to the satisfaction she gets from being a good wife in general and / or meeting your needs in particular.

The incentives and disincentives are really there to supplement the innate satisfaction she needs to have. If the rewards become the sole motivation for doing what you want, then you have a wife who truly is just "punching the clock". Her effort will be aimed at maximizing her utility and not being a good wife in itself. If it gets to that point, you will have to decide that your relationship is workable or that you need to move on.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

DTO said:


> The positive incentive should be his happiness, no? Should it not be enough that she is the only one that gets to be with him?
> 
> The OP here is faithful to his wife. That faithfulness itself (assuming she, like 99% of married people, expects it as a condition of marriage) creates a responsibility. Absolutely he needs to create a situation conducive to getting his needs met.
> 
> ...


I don't know. If holding a woman accountable worked then the problem would not exist. 

Duty, accountability, making him/her happy and subtle warnings that he/she will cheat just don't motivate a spouse long term. You can guilt or scare a spouse into having sex. It will work for a week or two then resentment builds and it stops. 

Backing a person into a conner to make them have sex seems odd for so personal and intimate an act. How do you even approach it? What do you say, what do you do. Scold them about their duty and then start having sex? 

I'll ask an impertinent question, how do you get it up? What is arousing about getting a person to have sex after you have reminded them of their duty?

I have read on this forum of men who turned things around by other means. Daily grind is one and there are others.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

How is it any different than MAP, 180, or anything else? It is all basically a form of manipulation in my book.

She should want to be there because she loves me.

It is a little like religious philosophy (Catholic vs Protestant, etc). Do you do good deeds just to earn your way to heaven or do you do them because they are the right thing to do???


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I don't know. *If holding a woman accountable worked then the problem would not exist*.
> 
> Duty, accountability, making him/her happy and subtle warnings that he/she will cheat just don't motivate a spouse long term. You can guilt or scare a spouse into having sex. It will work for a week or two then resentment builds and it stops.
> 
> ...


Accountability does work. We hear from women who (on their own) realized their marriages were jeapordized. These women did the hard work, made the necessary change, _and re-learned to like (or at least cheerfully accept)_ sex. It makes sense that more might be capable of this but lack motivation.

I agree that a relationship founded on incentives is troubled. I said as much earlier in the thread. But, the point is to use the incentives to drive change to a better marital framework, not to have the incentives be the framework. The goal remains to get your spouse invested in your happiness as the end, not as a means to another end. There is no contradiction here.

Also, I disagree that "daily grind" is an appropriate way of getting sex (unless you mean normal daily courtesy to each other and doing your part to run a successful household). This violates my sensibility that sex is an integral part of marriage (i.e. fidelity itself makes one deserving of sex, and vice versa). Your statement implies sexual satisfaction is subordinate to emotional bonding and / or is a greater sacrifice than other forms of openness (so that it is okay to give back less in this regard than you take in other ways).

Moreover, sometimes doing the "daily grind" sends the wrong signal. Rather than resulting in "wow, he really is invested in my happiness; I really should be doing more for him" it often results in "he's just testing; if he wasn't happy he would not do all this for me" or "I've got him by the balls". If a wife does not respond to the husband saying "I'm not happy and things need to change" she's not going to respond to getting her a$$ kissed.

ETA: of course you should try a softer approach first. I always suggest finding out from her what she needs in order to be sexually open with you. But here again, accountability is key. For instance, my ex would say she needed XYZ to be sexually open, get XYZ, go on about how much she was pleased to get XYZ, then continue on being her frigid self without challenge from me. I eventually changed that dynamic to "you said having XYZ would meet your needs and there has been no change" and eventually "you've been saying for years having XYZ would do it, it hasn't, and I'm calling you out on your crap".

I guess the overall objective is to show that, at the end of the day, change is a must. It is up to her whether to make it a cooperative process or an adversarial one.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

DTO said:


> Also, I disagree that "daily grind" is an appropriate way of getting sex (unless you mean normal daily courtesy to each other and doing your part to run a successful household). This violates my sensibility that sex is an integral part of marriage (i.e. fidelity itself makes one deserving of sex, and vice versa). Your statement implies sexual satisfaction is subordinate to emotional bonding and / or is a greater sacrifice than other forms of openness (so that it is okay to give back less in this regard than you take in other ways).
> 
> Moreover, sometimes doing the "daily grind" sends the wrong signal. Rather than resulting in "wow, he really is invested in my happiness; I really should be doing more for him" it often results in "he's just testing; if he wasn't happy he would not do all this for me" or "I've got him by the balls". If a wife does not respond to the husband saying "I'm not happy and things need to change" she's not going to respond to getting her a$$ kissed.



Daily grind is a poster here. His thread has been the most popular since Shamwow got divorced.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

frustr8dhubby said:


> How is it any different than MAP, 180, or anything else? It is all basically a form of manipulation in my book.
> 
> She should want to be there because she loves me.


Again, I completely agree. The goal is not to coerce, cajole, or compensate her to meet your sexual need. It is to motivate her to (1) accept that she is responsible for your sexual happiness (insofar as she values the marriage) and (2) to find a way to close the gap between your need and her current performance.

Let's look at it another way. At the end of the day change is a must. You need to break out of your rut; staying as you are is the worst possible outcome. By rejecting the current dynamic you signal that she needs to be all in or all out. By reinforcing acceptable behavior you signal, ultimately, your commitment to the relationship and her happiness (although not in a way that suggests her happiness is more important than your own).

Of course, she could choose to be "all out". That is, she decides that the effort of meeting your need exceeds the benefit she gets from the marriage. At that point she effectively detaches if not leaves the marriage outright. For me, the marriage was so bad that this was an acceptable risk (and was what wound up happening). Of course, this is an individual decision. IMO if the bad sex is not a deal-breaker then you should not go down this road (Jeff here an TAM is a good example of this).


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

lovesherman said:


> Daily grind is a poster here. His thread has been the most popular since Shamwow got divorced.


Got it - thanks for the heads up.

Nonetheless, I think it is a good post from my frame of reference. Many posters here (and on other forums) beat the "if you treat her well she will be a tiger in bed for you" drum.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

DTO said:


> Got it - thanks for the heads up.
> 
> Nonetheless, I think it is a good post from my frame of reference. Many posters here (and on other forums) beat the "if you treat her well she will be a tiger in bed for you" drum.


Well, if you're going to try and 'hold your spouse accountable' for meeting your needs, you'd also better 'hold yourself accountable' for meeting theirs.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Well, if you're going to try and 'hold your spouse accountable' for meeting your needs, you'd also better 'hold yourself accountable' for meeting theirs.


I definitely do. I frame the conversation as "I need XYZ; what you do feel you need or would like to have in order to get to that level".

Of course, there is a limit to this. I would consider an answer like "not having to work", for instance, to be unrealistic. Also, I frame the question in a way that makes it clear a flat-out "never going to happen" is unacceptable.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

DTO said:


> I've taken several management courses over the past year (including two on organizational behavior) for my MBA and the principles are applicable to all sorts of organizations, not just businesses. As much as I do not feel that a marriage is a business relationship, this is the same as a workplace situation.


Not to hijack the thread, but any books by Big Freddie Luthans? Most arrogant professor I ever had.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> What are the top three things she wants going forward?
> 
> And what is the difference in amount between what you want and she wants?
> 
> And is she generally unwilling to compromise on that? If so, why?


Exactly. This is the premise of His Needs Her Needs.

Most men have sexual fullfillment as #1 and don't care much about the rest if #1 is not met.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

that_girl said:


> This is INTERNET. How the heck are we supposed to hear your sarcasm?
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> Now I see the problem.


My browser has sarcasm settings. I often leave mine cranked out on high.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

frustr8dhubby said:


> How is it any different than MAP, 180, or anything else? It is all basically a form of manipulation in my book.
> 
> She should want to be there because she loves me.
> 
> It is a little like religious philosophy (Catholic vs Protestant, etc). Do you do good deeds just to earn your way to heaven or do you do them because they are the right thing to do???


This is partly why I am a recovering Catholic and now an agnostic. I do things because I believe they are right and expect no such reward for my efforts. If you have to be rewarded by going to heaven for being a good person, are you really a good person?

I do however, believe in a couple meeting each others needs. I do think balance is good. But I agree that sex because she loves me is important. If it is because I paint the house that is just ... well you do the math.

But the OP should look into -> www.marriedmansexlife.com and the couple should do His Needs Her Needs. I amazed at how many woman are shocked that sex is as important to a man as it is.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I agree couple should make an effort to know and meet each others needs. But I thing going about that goal as a trade agreement does not work. 

I think the "you need to meet my sexual needs" is the worse way to approach the problem. 

If the only goal of sex in my marriage was to meet my husbands needs and prevent him from cheating then we would not be having sex. In fact, the marriage would have been over way before now. 

Sex is or should be mutually enjoyable and meet both the needs of the woman and the man. A man who focuses on sex as his wife's duty and responsibility is not likely to take into account her pleasure. 

He has sex to meet his needs. If he needs to see her have an orgasm to meet his needs then he makes that a goal for him. If he has to see her enthusiastic to meet his needs then he expects that. 

If he likes quickies, bj and anal sex to meet his needs then he expects that. She is really not in the picture just her parts to meet his needs. 

The accompanying warning that is almost always hinted "or I will get them met by someone else" is confirmation that it is all about him. 

If he approached sex as a mutually enjoyable act that meets both their needs he would want to inspire enthusiasm. 

He would keep acts that focus on one sided pleasure to a minimum and only if she agrees willingly. 

That to me is why the I have needs take is the final step to marital oblivion. If he is a selfish, lousy lover, he will never consider that in his request for duty sex to meet his needs.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

DTO said:


> Again, I completely agree. The goal is not to coerce, cajole, or compensate her to meet your sexual need. It is to motivate her to (1) accept that she is responsible for your sexual happiness (insofar as she values the marriage) and (2) to find a way to close the gap between your need and her current performance.
> 
> Let's look at it another way. At the end of the day change is a must. You need to break out of your rut; staying as you are is the worst possible outcome. By rejecting the current dynamic you signal that she needs to be all in or all out. By reinforcing acceptable behavior you signal, ultimately, your commitment to the relationship and her happiness (although not in a way that suggests her happiness is more important than your own).
> 
> Of course, she could choose to be "all out". That is, she decides that the effort of meeting your need exceeds the benefit she gets from the marriage. At that point she effectively detaches if not leaves the marriage outright. For me, the marriage was so bad that this was an acceptable risk (and was what wound up happening). Of course, this is an individual decision. IMO if the bad sex is not a deal-breaker then you should not go down this road (Jeff here an TAM is a good example of this).


Your view of the changes seems to focus on your ex being the problem and not you. That seems to assume that, to you, sex is the most important thing for you in a relationship. 

You seem to expect any woman you grant the honor of your presence to put that on top of her list too. Is that because you think she should be grateful that you are there, no matter what you do? 

I am curious. How have your subsequent relationships been? Have you changed in any way after the failure of your marriage? 

Did you recognize your role in the demise of the marriage and have you made any personal changes?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Catherine,

1. I have no interest in sex when she is mid-fitness test and has not apologized. No respect = no desire. 
2. I have no interest in sex when she is sad, or anxious or upset. I wish to give - not to take in that situation - so I comfort her however I can. My desire shuts off when she is in a bad place and my "protect and serve" circuitry comes fully to life. 
3. I have no interest in transactional sex. The day I fixed the polaris (I normally suck at handy man stuff so she and I were both shocked at the outcome) I recall her saying "you are SO going to get a (insert two letter acronym) tonight". And I recall thinking:
- Hmmm - I can have that whenever I want within reason
- I only like that when SHE really wants to do that
- I am glad she is happy I fixed the polaris - really I am
- She isn't actually turned on right now - so neither am I - and the concept of "you did X" so "I will do Y" does absofreakinlutely nothing for me
- My last thought was - I am so not bringing that offer up later tonight. 
4. I will not be held hostage by an LD partner (my W has never actually held me hostage - but she threatened to do so a couple times) never EVER EVER be held hostage by an LD partner

I keep reading this "the LD partner has all the control, the LD partner is the gatekeeper, the LD partner decides in all cases what will freakin happen or not in bed". 

Gosh - that seems SOOOO ***ked up to me. I am sitting here and this is what I "know" is true: I spend 3 days a week at home and 4 days a week "getting the money" in another city. And at the end of each 3 day weekend I think: "Damn - I have one incredibly kind, loving, generous, beautiful, understanding wife". 

And she proceeds to say "I am sorry I am broken and we couldn't have normal relations". What do you say to someone who gives you everything they have. Nothing. There is nothing you can say. You just try like hell to be a bit more like them each day that passes. What do you say to someone who gives you everything they have - and then apologizes for not having more? I honestly don't know what to say. So I tell her that she is the best because she is. 





Catherine602 said:


> I agree couple should make an effort to know and meet each others needs. But I thing going about that goal as a trade agreement does not work.
> 
> I think the "you need to meet my sexual needs" is the worse way to approach the problem.
> 
> ...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Middle of Everything said:


> Not to hijack the thread, but any books by Big Freddie Luthans? Most arrogant professor I ever had.


You know, that name sounds familiar. The text for the MBA seminar was a collection of scholarly articles that we read and picked apart in class; there was also independent research. I probably went through about 60 articles for that class; I'm sure I came across something of his at some point.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

MEM 
I don't know. I feel concerned for you and your wife. 

I can't see how you are happy since you are HD. I'll be honest. I am so afraid this will happen to me. I really don't know what I would do. I know my husband would not be satisfied without a full sex life. I know he would be understanding like you. 

But I would be very depressed. I think I would let him go just to see him happy. That would make me happier than keeping him in bondage. 

I know that we will always love each other but I also know he could love and commit totally to someone else if he knew that I would be alright. 

I don't think I could bear the thought of his frustration and longing. Very difficult.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Sex is or should be mutually enjoyable and meet both the needs of the woman and the man. A man who focuses on sex as his wife's duty and responsibility is not likely to take into account her pleasure.
> 
> If he approached sex as a mutually enjoyable act that meets both their needs he would want to inspire enthusiasm.
> 
> He would keep acts that focus on one sided pleasure to a minimum and only if she agrees willingly.


First of all, I did not focus on sex as being a man's duty to his wife. Sex is both spouse's duty to each other; those duties involve meeting each other's sexual need and being faithful. A man should expect to have his needs met (to a reasonable extent) and expect to meet hers as well.

Now, the rest of your post presumes that both partners have a pretty decent sex drive (strong-ish if not exactly high drive). If one partner does not enjoy sex as a physical act at all, then your choices are to prod her to have sex to a certain extent or be largely celibate. That is the reality for many of us (including me), for whom doing things the way you describe is pointless.

Respectfully, I suggest that the problem here is your lack of empathy. You and your husband have established a virtuous cycle based in no small part on a healthy sexuality in general and attraction to each other in particular. You cannot picture what it's like to be with an intractible refuser who simply is not attracted to you.

I'll help you be in my shoes. Let's say you two have been struggling with sex for quite a while. Your husband comes to you and says "I'm not sexually attracted to you and never really was. I said I was because I wanted to be married to you but knew that if I said how I really felt about it you would have refused my proposal." He then goes on to make it clear that he desires to feel close to you but is not interested in sexual satisfaction and does not care about yours, so he will approach you for quicky intercourse "once in a while" (or not) - no foreplay or oral - and your thoughts about it don't matter. You can gratefully accept what is given or run the risk of getting nothing.

What would YOU do in my shoes?


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## zaliblue (Apr 26, 2011)

yeh i don't see the problem....you guys are married, kids practically grown....I don't see why you guys would ever leave the bed room lol


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Your view of the changes seems to focus on your ex being the problem and not you. That seems to assume that, to you, sex is the most important thing for you in a relationship.
> 
> You seem to expect any woman you grant the honor of your presence to put that on top of her list too. Is that because you think she should be grateful that you are there, no matter what you do?
> 
> ...


You need to slow down a bit - there's quite a bit about my situation you don't know.

My ex did not leave because of sex - I had stopped asking once she acknowledged that (a) she lied about her initial attraction to me (even though she proposed marriage), (b) had not worked to be more open sexually, and (c) attributed her difficulties to a traumatic childhood, but had no interest in resolving those issues.

She refused MC for us and IC for herself. She was fine living in a sexless marriage but planned her exit soon after I was laid off (I had a really good job and it was obvious that finding another as good was extremely unlikely).

Why did she marry me? Her own words - I was handsome and would be a good father and provider. Physical attraction was never part of it. I was a means to an end. She had a drive to "succeed"; despite her family having failed her she would achieve the affluent family life that they never had.

Now, on to your comments. I don't walk around thinking any lady would be lucky to have me. But, reality is any lady in a relationship is going to have high expectations and insist she be a priority. Why is the corresponding expectation from a man inappropriate? I have consistently stated my willingness to meet high expectations; why do you continue to portray me as some pig who expects to just show up and be ravished?

And, no, I don't think sex is the most important thing in a relationship. If I did, I would not have passed up the multiple opportunities at "strange" that have presented themselves over the years. It's not just talking the flirty ladies that are probably available but maybe not; it's more like them sending me sext messages and making sure they bend at the waist.

But, sex is important - even a deal-breaker. There is a top tier of equally important attributes I seek, and sexual attraction among them. I will not be just a roommate or supporter and I make no apologies. I will give 100%; if with that a lady is not attracted to me then we simply are not right for each other.

I have not had a serious relationship since my ex moved out 2.5 years ago. I have prioritized my career, getting my MBA, and raising my daughter, which leaves little time for anything else. Still, I have had interest from four women. Two fizzled rather quickly due to my responsibiities as a parent, one I had zero interest in, and with one there was mutual attraction but life interfered. That last one wanted to step it up right as I was starting B-school. We both had family duties and spending a lot of time together was just not going to work out.

Anticipating the next part of the question, I have been with five women besides my ex and none of them has complained about me being a selfish, pushy, or insensitive partner.

Since marriage I have learned that I am okay by myself (started realizing that before ex moved out, but being single convinced me). The dates I've had since have convinced me that I am desirable for more than my parenting or earning potential; that someone out there wants me for ME. I've also learned to stand up for myself better and more maturely, depend on myself ultimately for my happiness, and be a good ender.

As far as my marriage goes, it was doomed from the start. I was mainly a tool for my ex's advancement; the marriage began its slow death when I started challenging that mindset. People without mutual sexual attraction should not be married, period.

I take responsibility for being a bad ender; the marriage should have ended long before it did. I take responsibility for being naive. My ex told me she was holding back sexually out of moral conviction but would provide after marriage; some friends later on said the signs she was lying were there. And, I take responsibility for not standing up for myself; I wonder if things would have turned out better had I spoken up immediately, rather than waiting years hoping she would fulfill her promises.

Now, obviously, if you were to ask my ex she would say that her issues were contributing factors but that I ruined the marriage. She bases this conclusion on two premises. One, the marriage is about her, not me or us. She went through a period where she went to church and came to this understanding. As a result, she felt she was entitled to the tangible benefits of marriage while I should be content having satisfied her (sort of like how parents take pride in content children).

Two, she feels that her rough childhood excuses her from the responsibilities of marriage.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Catherine,
DO you think I feel "held hostage"? Or depriorotized? Or unloved? Or resentful? 
Or that I secretly wish my wife would meet someone so I would have a guilt free path to enemy it? 

The answers are: no, no, NO, no, and hell no. 

Held hostage means that my core biology has been weaponized and is being used against me. That is abusive. This is the opposite of that.




QUOTE=Catherine602;642739]MEM 
I don't know. I feel concerned for you and your wife. 

I can't see how you are happy since you are HD. I'll be honest. I am so afraid this will happen to me. I really don't know what I would do. I know my husband would not be satisfied without a full sex life. I know he would be understanding like you. 

But I would be very depressed. I think I would let him go just to see him happy. That would make me happier than keeping him in bondage. 

I know that we will always love each other but I also know he could love and commit totally to someone else if he knew that I would be alright. 

I don't think I could bear the thought of his frustration and longing. Very difficult.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Dto,
I think your patience and tenacity with your ex shows your character and belief that other people are honest and decent.

Sadly when it comes to mating there is often much deception. I believe you now grasp the male female dynamic well.

And as I continue to emphasize in my own situation, when your partner truly is doing a great job going the extra mile fir you despite being in a tough spot, that feels very good.

Both my W and Catherine continue to fail to grasp exactly WHAT it is that matters to me. Both think that "absence of intercourse = unhappy frustrated and resentful man" utter nonsense.



OTE=DTO;642833]You need to slow down a bit - there's quite a bit about my situation you don't know.

My ex did not leave because of sex - I had stopped asking once she acknowledged that (a) she lied about her initial attraction to me (even though she proposed marriage), (b) had not worked to be more open sexually, and (c) attributed her difficulties to a traumatic childhood, but had no interest in resolving those issues.

She refused MC for us and IC for herself. She was fine living in a sexless marriage but planned her exit soon after I was laid off (I had a really good job and it was obvious that finding another as good was extremely unlikely).

Why did she marry me? Her own words - I was handsome and would be a good father and provider. Physical attraction was never part of it. I was a means to an end. She had a drive to "succeed"; despite her family having failed her she would achieve the affluent family life that they never had.

Now, on to your comments. I don't walk around thinking any lady would be lucky to have me. But, reality is any lady in a relationship is going to have high expectations and insist she be a priority. Why is the corresponding expectation from a man inappropriate? I have consistently stated my willingness to meet high expectations; why do you continue to portray me as some pig who expects to just show up and be ravished?

And, no, I don't think sex is the most important thing in a relationship. If I did, I would not have passed up the multiple opportunities at "strange" that have presented themselves over the years. It's not just talking the flirty ladies that are probably available but maybe not; it's more like them sending me sext messages and making sure they bend at the waist.

But, sex is important - even a deal-breaker. There is a top tier of equally important attributes I seek, and sexual attraction among them. I will not be just a roommate or supporter and I make no apologies. I will give 100%; if with that a lady is not attracted to me then we simply are not right for each other.

I have not had a serious relationship since my ex moved out 2.5 years ago. I have prioritized my career, getting my MBA, and raising my daughter, which leaves little time for anything else. Still, I have had interest from four women. Two fizzled rather quickly due to my responsibiities as a parent, one I had zero interest in, and with one there was mutual attraction but life interfered. That last one wanted to step it up right as I was starting B-school. We both had family duties and spending a lot of time together was just not going to work out.

Anticipating the next part of the question, I have been with five women besides my ex and none of them has complained about me being a selfish, pushy, or insensitive partner.

Since marriage I have learned that I am okay by myself (started realizing that before ex moved out, but being single convinced me). The dates I've had since have convinced me that I am desirable for more than my parenting or earning potential; that someone out there wants me for ME. I've also learned to stand up for myself better and more maturely, depend on myself ultimately for my happiness, and be a good ender.

As far as my marriage goes, it was doomed from the start. I was mainly a tool for my ex's advancement; the marriage began its slow death when I started challenging that mindset. People without mutual sexual attraction should not be married, period.

I take responsibility for being a bad ender; the marriage should have ended long before it did. I take responsibility for being naive. My ex told me she was holding back sexually out of moral conviction but would provide after marriage; some friends later on said the signs she was lying were there. And, I take responsibility for not standing up for myself; I wonder if things would have turned out better had I spoken up immediately, rather than waiting years hoping she would fulfill her promises.

Now, obviously, if you were to ask my ex she would say that her issues were contributing factors but that I ruined the marriage. She bases this conclusion on two premises. One, the marriage is about her, not me or us. She went through a period where she went to church and came to this understanding. As a result, she felt she was entitled to the tangible benefits of marriage while I should be content having satisfied her (sort of like how parents take pride in content children).

Two, she feels that her rough childhood excuses her from the responsibilities of marriage.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Dto,
> I think your patience and tenacity with your ex shows your character and belief that other people are honest and decent.
> 
> Sadly when it comes to mating there is often much deception. I believe you now grasp the male female dynamic well.
> ...


Yeah, I get that deception, now. I admitted I was naive. My family upbringing was one of honestly; you worked together as a team and kept your word. It was a surprise that people see this intentional behavior as acceptable, but there you are.

I get how the absence of sex matters as much as a lack of consideration / respect as the absence of the act itself. As far as the ladies not getting it, I'm not so sure. Another possibility is that they just see it differently than we do. I don't know about your W. Catherine in particular seems to consider a good sex life a perk and not a requisite of marriage.

I know she talks about her great sex life. But if you look at her responses, you see disapproval of my ideals. There is mention of willing acceptance, which implies I should not push for change. This suggests an underlying attitude of "we have a good sex life mainly because I like it, not because he has earned or deserves it", which leads to "if at the end of the day your wife simply refuses to improve you should leave it alone and treat her well regardless; sex simply should not be essential to a marriage".


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

DTO
Sorry I did not know your story. It seems I don't feel the same way about sex as you. I have not had your experience though. 

You said this:
"we have a good sex life mainly because I like it, not because he has earned or deserves it" 


I don't think of sex as something to give a man. I have sex not give sex. There is a big difference. If I were giving sex, what do I expect in exchange? If I am having sex, I take the responsibility to have a high quality experience with my partner. He does not have to earn it and I hope I don't either. 

There is a tacit agreement to have high quality sex, along with many other things, by virtue of the fact that we married and are continuing in the relationship. 

Actually, I do think our sex life is good because of me. Unlike some LD women who think they need to have spontaneous desire to have sex, I understand and accept the differences between men and women. 

I think the LD spouse can put a monkey wrench into frequent high quality sex. But it depends on the relationship abilities of the HD and LD person. Their ability to learn and understand, take responsibility and the ability to see things from their partners point of view. 

When we first married, I was very repressed but, I grew. My husband gets 80% of the credit for that. He did not get angry, act frustrated nor was he demanding. He seduces me out of my shell. Thinking back, I don't think it would have worked otherwise. 

My 20% is my ability to learn and understand and admit I get things wrong and change. Also, I love him and want to see him happy. In a sense, he has earned a good sex life, he worked hard enough for it, but so did I. 

My husband drives the frequency of sex because I don't think of it as much as he does. I need to be aroused before I feel desire. He doesn't. We worked out how to get me to wind down and get into having sex. It works. 

You said this:
which leads to "if at the end of the day your wife simply refuses to improve you should leave it alone and treat her well regardless; 
sex simply should not be essential to a marriage".


No, I don't feel this way at all. This is a miserable existence in which too many good men get stuck. As you said, you need to address it early, persistently and hard. 

In my opinion, leaving should never be off the table. If your partner thinks you cannot or will not leave, you open yourself for abuse.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

DTO,
You will see plenty of posts where Catherine takes the male side of the argument. In aggregate her posts are balanced and insightful. Occasionally you get to be on the receiving end of some dragon fire from her but it is sincere not mean spirited. 

On a proper keyboard I would try to do her viewpoint justice. Not from my iPhone.




I get that deception, now. I admitted I was naive. My family upbringing was one of honestly; you worked together as a team and kept your word. It was a surprise that people see this intentional behavior as acceptable, but there you are.

I get how the absence of sex matters as much as a lack of consideration / respect as the absence of the act itself. As far as the ladies not getting it, I'm not so sure. Another possibility is that they just see it differently than we do. I don't know about your W. Catherine in particular seems to consider a good sex life a perk and not a requisite of marriage.

I know she talks about her great sex life. But if you look at her responses, you see disapproval of my ideals. There is mention of willing acceptance, which implies I should not push for change. This suggests an underlying attitude of "we have a good sex life mainly because I like it, not because he has earned or deserves it", which leads to "if at the end of the day your wife simply refuses to improve you should leave it alone and treat her well regardless; sex simply should not be essential to a marriage".[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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