# Wife refuses to work to her potential



## Darwin17

My wife has a degree with a teaching certificate. She has worked retail for the past 7 years. It has hurt us financially and she never apply's for a job as when I ask she will do like 2 in a month.

It is a sore point in our relationship as if she at least tried then I would not be so pissed about it.

Any suggestions on this?


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## imperfectworld

Unfortunately I can relate, and don't have any advice.


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## jld

Does she just not like teaching?

I didn't. Lots of prep and grading, and it is exhausting working with kids all day.

With retail you just go in, do your time, and you're done, right?


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## CuddleBug

Darwin17 said:


> My wife has a degree with a teaching certificate. She has worked retail for the past 7 years. It has hurt us financially and she never apply's for a job as when I ask she will do like 2 in a month.
> 
> It is a sore point in our relationship as if she at least tried then I would not be so pissed about it.
> 
> Any suggestions on this?



I know guys who got degrees and wound up working construction and something different.

Maybe your wife truly loves retail?

If you both work, two incomes, you should be okay.

You can't expect her to do a job she doesn't like so you have more money, right?

She can always go into supervisor or assistant manager in retail and she has a degree so that gets her in that field she loves. They make not bad money and when you're a store manager, not bad money at all.

Mrs.CuddleBug also has a degree but chose to work in retail and now is at head office in corporate. She started as a waitress, then retail store on the floor, then in assistant management positions and now head office corporate. Nothing to do with her degree but it got her into management and head office corporate just because she had it, even though its useless.


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## Rowan

How much more money would she make teaching over her current position? 

I know people with teaching degrees who actually make the same or better money in retail, construction, office management, even in food service or bartending (in high-end resort areas). Depending on your local school districts and her certification(s), teaching can be appallingly low paid as compared to other options.


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## truster

Teaching can be a difficult position to get as well.. I've had a couple of friends that, due to location, budget cuts, union seniority, and so on, have had a hell of a time getting and keeping a position.

Most importantly though.. why does she say when you ask her why she's not incredibly interested? Have you had constructive, supportive conversations to find out her feelings?


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## Darwin17

She told me yesterday she doesn't want to teach any more. I told her that was ok as she never really applied for any teaching jobs anyways. So the question came into what is next and she really could not answer. I was told that maybe getting into secretary work will be ok and to be honest it will pay similar and she will have weekends off and that will be nice.

We just moved back home to Houston a month ago and it went like this with the conversation. 

"if you are working Friday night I will not be home and will be at a friends house" all of my best friends live here as well as my parents

"if you are working Saturday I will not he home and will be at a friends house as well" 

"I would love you to use your degree and get a real job so we can do things together but this is getting old and pissing me off and frankly if you think I am going to sit at home like a puppy I am not doing that as I have friends and family to see" 

I have been doing this every time she has to work. To be honest she graduated 10 years ago and has not done anything with it.

I try to explain to her that in order to get jobs you need to apply to them and she will do like 3 in a month unless I ride her. I don't like doing that as she is an adult and I should not need to do that.


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## Darwin17

truster said:


> Teaching can be a difficult position to get as well.. I've had a couple of friends that, due to location, budget cuts, union seniority, and so on, have had a hell of a time getting and keeping a position.
> 
> Most importantly though.. why does she say when you ask her why she's not incredibly interested? Have you had constructive, supportive conversations to find out her feelings?


When approached over why she never apply's to jobs I get "I don't know"

I ask her if she want's to work retail the rest of her life and I get "No"

I ask her if she finds it appropriate that I need to ride her over this as she is 36 and not a kid "No"

why are you not doing anything about this "I don't know"


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## Yeswecan

She must like retail. Instead of pushing your W into a job she will not like, resent you for it, why not look to reduce your living expenses?


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## Mr. Nail

@Darwin17 ,
My advice would be to back off and stop being so critical. She sounds pretty cowed. I don't think she is letting you into her world.
MN


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## Yeswecan

Darwin17 said:


> When approached over why she never apply's to jobs I get "I don't know"
> 
> I ask her if she want's to work retail the rest of her life and I get "No"
> 
> I ask her if she finds it appropriate that I need to ride her over this as she is 36 and not a kid "No"
> 
> why are you not doing anything about this "I don't know"


Talking down to your W like this will get you on the outside looking in. In short, if you talked to me like this I would provide the same answers as your W does. STOP MAKING YOUR W APPEAR TO BE THE PROBLEM. YOU ARE.


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## Darwin17

There are things that we are ok in such as keeping the home in order, sex, hobbies etc. She works out and I work out and we keep appearances in body shape. We are very solid in our relationship and we have been together for 14 years.

We make enough to get by as she covers her car and cell phone and I cover everything else. This though puts is in a place where we are not saving enough to get a house or anything like that or take a real vacation. She will bring that up and I just stare at her because if she would make $40k a year and contribute we could save up for those things very quickly.

I do not raise my voice but have a calm conversation as yelling gets no where. I do get condicending as I just don't know where else to go. I have tried the "I just want to understand that if you don't like working retail then why are you not applying to jobs elsewhere" and then I get the "I don't know" response.

When that happens I am at a complete loss......


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## Darwin17

Mr. Nail said:


> @Darwin17 ,
> My advice would be to back off and stop being so critical. She sounds pretty cowed. I don't think she is letting you into her world.
> MN


so you are saying to do nothing and let her do nothing?


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## Marduk

Why is her career important to you?

Is it money? Is it her schedule? 

Or is it that you want to be married to someone who is career driven?


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## Yeswecan

Darwin17 said:


> There are things that we are ok in such as keeping the home in order, sex, hobbies etc. She works out and I work out and we keep appearances in body shape. We are very solid in our relationship and we have been together for 14 years.
> 
> We make enough to get by as she covers her car and cell phone and I cover everything else. This though puts is in a place where we are not saving enough to get a house or anything like that or take a real vacation. She will bring that up and I just stare at her because if she would make $40k a year and contribute we could save up for those things very quickly.*
> 
> 
> 
> Once again you are making your W the problem here. How about you get a second job? I certainly did in my years of marriage when needed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *I do not raise my voice but have a calm conversation as yelling gets no where. I do get condicending as I just don't know where else to go. I have tried the "I just want to understand that if you don't like working retail then why are you not applying to jobs elsewhere" and then I get the "I don't know" response.
> 
> When that happens I am at a complete loss......



You keep blaming your W for all of this. What part are you taking responsibility for?


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## Darwin17

marduk said:


> Why is her career important to you?
> 
> Is it money? Is it her schedule?
> 
> Or is it that you want to be married to someone who is career driven?


For one it is the schedule. Lets say it is like this week where she closed Monday and Tuesday so didn't get home till 10:00. Today she is off. Tomorrow she closes again and Friday she will be home by 5:00ish. Saturday she works.

I truly enjoy my time with her and I don't like her job taking that time away.

Two the money as well. I make enough for us to live but not succeed at this point and we could be so much more ahead if she would actually contribute.


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## Darwin17

Yeswecan said:


> You keep blaming your W for all of this. What part are you taking responsibility for?


My responsibility as in what?


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## Marduk

Darwin17 said:


> For one it is the schedule. Lets say it is like this week where she closed Monday and Tuesday so didn't get home till 10:00. Today she is off. Tomorrow she closes again and Friday she will be home by 5:00ish. Saturday she works.
> 
> I truly enjoy my time with her and I don't like her job taking that time away.


Fair.

"Wife, I want you to take only day shifts and keep the weekends free."



> Two the money as well. I make enough for us to live but not succeed at this point and we could be so much more ahead if she would actually contribute.


Different.

"Wife, what are your financial goals for our marriage? I want X and Y. Do you want X and Y?"

if she does, "Great, to get there I need some help bringing in money."

If she doesn't want the same things, that's different.


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## Darwin17

marduk said:


> Fair.
> 
> "Wife, I want you to take only day shifts and keep the weekends free."
> 
> 
> 
> Different.
> 
> "Wife, what are your financial goals for our marriage? I want X and Y. Do you want X and Y?"
> 
> if she does, "Great, to get there I need some help bringing in money."
> 
> If she doesn't want the same things, that's different.


It is retail so she has absolutely no say in her hours of work......

I have had the financial goals conversation and she agrees she needs to get a different job to bring in more money but then does nothing about it.


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## phillybeffandswiss

How old are you?


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## Marduk

Darwin17 said:


> It is retail so she has absolutely no say in her hours of work......
> 
> I have had the financial goals conversation and she agrees she needs to get a different job to bring in more money but then does nothing about it.


Does she say why?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Darwin17

phillybeffandswiss said:


> How old are you?


I am 35 and she is 36


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## Darwin17

marduk said:


> Does she say why?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"I don't know" is the usual response


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## Marduk

Darwin17 said:


> "I don't know" is the usual response


Could she be depressed? Bored? Feeling lost with her career?

Could she think that it's your job to bring in all the money - a gender issue?

Or is she just lazy?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr. Nail

Darwin17 said:


> so you are saying to do nothing and let her do nothing?


What I am saying is this: Your wife already has a Daddy, She left him to live with you. 

Your role in this relationship is not what it should be.
MN


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## Darwin17

marduk said:


> Could she be depressed? Bored? Feeling lost with her career?
> 
> I think there could be some depression here but nothing crazy. I also think she has a hard time deciding on what to do. I have directed her to places to look into this but she doesn't go.
> 
> Could she think that it's your job to bring in all the money - a gender issue?
> 
> I don't think it is a gender issue and we don't have any kids or anything like that.
> 
> Or is she just lazy?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She can be and I just can't figure out how to make someone do something when the know they should.

About every 4 months or so I ask her how her job hunting goes. She will not answer me or say not too good. I will ask her how many jobs she has applied for and usually around 2-4 over that span of time. We have a discussion about how this is not helping our situation etc and she will agree. So then she will actually do it for about 2 weeks and just stop.

The only thing that ever works is for me to ride her over it with demands of 2 a day and treat her like an employee.....I HATE doing this as she is a big girl and should be able to do this without me.

The cycle continues over and over and over again.

She is a hard worker and has worked the whole time just in jobs that don't pay all that well and take up weekends and stuff. Example is this Saturday I am doing some fun things like Disc Golf and shooting some guns in a National Forest that she will miss out on because she will be working instead.


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## Lila

Darwin17 said:


> marduk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does she say why?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> "I don't know" is the usual response
Click to expand...


Or could it be that she actually enjoys her job but avoids telling you that because she knows how upset it makes you that she's not living up to your standards?

Do you involve your wife on budget decisions?


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## Darwin17

Mr. Nail said:


> What I am saying is this: Your wife already has a Daddy, She left him to live with you.
> 
> Your role in this relationship is not what it should be.
> MN


Oh I do agree with you on this.....now how about you give me something constructive as an alternative as the alternative of do nothing and let her take care of it isn't working


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## Mr. Nail

You have plenty of advice here. What you are asking for is control. I have no way to give you that and no inclination to. I'm just trying to keep you from being single.


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## Darwin17

Lila said:


> Or could it be that she actually enjoys her job but avoids telling you that because she knows how upset it makes you that she's not living up to your standards?
> 
> Do you involve your wife on budget decisions?


she likes to talk about getting a House etc and understands that currently we can't save for one

My standards are pretty simple "get an adult job" something 9-5 with weekends off and benefits. 

She is not involved with the budget other than using my money to pay for everything other than her car and cell phone.


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## Blondilocks

Let's see: your wife of 14 years has had her degree for 10 years and has worked retail for 7 years & she is 36 years old. You can forget about getting her to get off her behind and get a better job. She is doing what she wants to do. It also affords her some time away from you (have you considered that possibility?).

You have two choices: Accept her as she is or find someone who is more ambitious. 

You haven't stated if you have children. Do you?


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## Darwin17

Mr. Nail said:


> You have plenty of advice here. What you are asking for is control. I have no way to give you that and no inclination to. I'm just trying to keep you from being single.


To be honest I don't want control in this situation and just wish she would try.......


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## Darwin17

Blondilocks said:


> Let's see: your wife of 14 years has had her degree for 10 years and has worked retail for 7 years & she is 36 years old. You can forget about getting her to get off her behind and get a better job. She is doing what she wants to do. It also affords her some time away from you (have you considered that possibility?).
> 
> You have two choices: Accept her as she is or find someone who is more ambitious.
> 
> You haven't stated if you have children. Do you?


No children and time away from me to work instead is interesting. I don't think I am that bad to be around. This comes out about 4 times a year the rest is honestly pretty fun. 

I like to "do things" and not just sit at home and watch TV (even though that is fine as well). 

I make her laugh allot and am affectionate as all get out. I cook really well and help around the house etc. We do have division of work at home as because I pay for everything there is not much I do. Cleaning the Kitchen is what I do and I do it every night. She gets everything else. Please don't tell me I should pick up more at home as if you say that then you think everything should be 50/50. If she paid half the bills I would gladly do laundry and sweep etc.


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## Lila

Darwin17 said:


> she likes to talk about getting a House etc and understands that currently we can't save for one
> 
> My standards are pretty simple "get an adult job" something 9-5 with weekends off and benefits.
> 
> She is not involved with the budget other than using my money to pay for everything other than her car and cell phone.


I would immediately involve her on determine the household budget. She doesn't care about the money because she doesn't have a say in how it's spent or where it goes. 

I'll be honest with you, I don't agree with keeping separate finances on a marriage for this very reason. It becomes a his money, his budget, his goals and her money, her budget, her goals. There's no common ground. 

When you two start combining incomes into one pot and making joint decisions on how it gets spent, then you might get some but in from her. 

The worst thing you can do is keep nagging her about the job. She's going to start resenting you and you will soon start seeing the symptoms of that resentment infecting other parts of your otherwise healthy marriage. But if this is the hill you wish to die on, so be it.


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## phillybeffandswiss

35? Hmmmm.......

Well, I can't blame how you write on your age. You sound extremely domineering and controlling. If she wasn't working and loafing around the house, I'd get your resentment and derision. Y

You sound like a father, not a husband, a money hungry one at that. I mean you actually have a pay scale number that will make you comfortable. A good husband would be trying to get her promoted within her company and supporting her decision not to teach. If she likes retail then she can become a retail manager or something to that effect. My wife was pulling in, with bonuses, 50K as a General Manager at a fast food restaurant. I didn't like the job or the hours, but I encouraged her to move up the ranks. Yes, she is finally finding a new job, but there is no hateful resentment because I spent time belittling her for not doing what I wanted. 


> About every 4 months or so I ask her how her job hunting goes. She will not answer me or say not too good. I will ask her how many jobs she has applied for and usually around 2-4 over that span of time. We have a discussion about how this is not helping our situation etc and she will agree. So then she will actually do it for about 2 weeks and just stop.
> 
> The only thing that ever works is for me to ride her over it with demands of 2 a day and treat her like an employee.....I HATE doing this as she is a big girl and should be able to do this without me.
> 
> The cycle continues over and over and over again.


SO, *three times a year* she gets these condescending pep talks?



> She is a hard worker and has worked the whole time just in jobs that don't pay all that well and take up weekends and stuff. Example is this Saturday I am doing some fun things like Disc Golf and shooting some guns in a National Forest that she will miss out on because she will be working instead.


 You might want to read how you sound and realize she may not be missing "some fun things." Maybe *she DOESN'T want to spend time with you.*


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## LongWalk

Does she want children?


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## Darwin17

LongWalk said:


> Does she want children?


We have talked about it and I have put children up to her and I support either decision


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## Darwin17

phillybeffandswiss said:


> 35? Hmmmm.......
> 
> Well, I can't blame how you write on your age. You sound extremely domineering and controlling. If she wasn't working and loafing around the house, I'd get your resentment and derision. Y
> 
> You sound like a father, not a husband, a money hungry one at that. I mean you actually have a pay scale number that will make you comfortable. A good husband would be trying to get her promoted within her company and supporting her decision not to teach. If she likes retail then she can become a retail manager or something to that effect. My wife was pulling in, with bonuses, 50K as a General Manager at a fast food restaurant. I didn't like the job or the hours, but I encouraged her to move up the ranks. Yes, she is finally finding a new job, but there is no hateful resentment because I spent time belittling her for not doing what I wanted.
> SO, *three times a year* she gets these condescending pep talks?
> 
> You might want to read how you sound and realize she may not be missing "some fun things." Maybe *she DOESN'T want to spend time with you.*


I freely admit I am very dominant. If she was going into management I would completely support it. I would not like the hrs still but I would see that as a massive step in the right direction. I highly doubt she does not want to spend time with me and I find this funny.


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## Darwin17

Lila said:


> I would immediately involve her on determine the household budget. She doesn't care about the money because she doesn't have a say in how it's spent or where it goes.
> 
> I'll be honest with you, I don't agree with keeping separate finances on a marriage for this very reason. It becomes a his money, his budget, his goals and her money, her budget, her goals. There's no common ground.
> 
> When you two start combining incomes into one pot and making joint decisions on how it gets spent, then you might get some but in from her.
> 
> The worst thing you can do is keep nagging her about the job. She's going to start resenting you and you will soon start seeing the symptoms of that resentment infecting other parts of your otherwise healthy marriage. But if this is the hill you wish to die on, so be it.


You make a very good point and we will be talking about this today when I get home after work


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## Lila

Darwin17 said:


> I make her laugh allot and am affectionate as all get out. I cook really well and help around the house etc. We do have division of work at home as because I pay for everything there is not much I do. Cleaning the Kitchen is what I do and I do it every night. She gets everything else. Please don't tell me I should pick up more at home as if you say that then you think everything should be 50/50. If she paid half the bills I would gladly do laundry and sweep etc.


So this is an interesting new bit of info. It all makes sense now. Think about this for a minute.....why would your wife volunteer to work at a job that makes her miserable just to turn around and have to be a maid at home? I too would never give up my sweet retail job even if I was only making minimum wage. And I would also forgoe buying a house.....just more to clean after a long day at work. She's actually a very smart cookie.


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## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> It is retail so she has absolutely no say in her hours of work......


Nonsense. My DD25 works at one of the major retail stores and she simply writes down on their form which hours she is available for, and they schedule her within those hours. It was the same 30 years ago when I worked retail - choose to be a floater and take any hours given, or sign up for certain hours.

As for what to do, I suggest you stop giving her access to any money. YOUR money earned pays essentials (home, groceries, utilities) and anything else goes into a 401k or a savings account for those trips you want. She wants clothes? Work more hours. She wants to eat out? Work more hours. She wants a new couch? Work more hours and when you have saved up half the price of the couch, I'll pitch in the other half.

That way, you aren't telling her what to do, you're controlling YOUR side of the street and doing what's important to you (savings, etc.) so you have less resentment of her. She can either step up and pay her own way, or she'll learn to survive on the small amount of money she has. 

Either that, or sit her down and show her where the money goes and ask her for HER opinion on how to afford everything.

Just be prepared that living on her small income simply may be fine with her. Many people simply don't have high goals.


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## phillybeffandswiss

So, you asked for help and then miss the point I made? What part of my post didn't you grasp? 
You are not supporting your wife. I didn't like my wife's job, but I made sure I gave suggestions and supported her decision to work. You are browbeating her and telling her what she should do. No, that isn't support that is killing your marriage.


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## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> To be honest I don't want control in this situation and just wish she would try.......


You don't want control...you just want her to do things YOUR way. 

:rofl:


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## Spotthedeaddog

Yeswecan said:


> Talking down to your W like this will get you on the outside looking in. In short, if you talked to me like this I would provide the same answers as your W does. STOP MAKING YOUR W APPEAR TO BE THE PROBLEM. YOU ARE.


Bull his lazy arse entitled W is the problem.


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## Spotthedeaddog

Darwin17 said:


> To be honest I don't want control in this situation and just wish she would try.......




Ok.

Here's the straight bro.

She is getting everything she wants, so sees no reason why she needs to get off her arse to change anything. Any problems with the relationship or finance she can just delate to you without take any responsibility for - she is happy for you to take hte stress and the blame and the anger and the depression, and if you say or complain it's because her girls friends and the internet and the books say it's because you are at fault and you are being an ar*seh_ole, so she feels totally vindicated.

In her eyes, any problems are your failures - and just read the other comments on this thread to see how others are happy to do that to the husband/male partner.

So take a leaf out of the womens' book while you still can (it's too late for many of us).
(1) set up a separate account for you, put all your income in that.
(2) pay only your half of everything.
(3) don't buy love tokens or romantic gifts, she's not your prostitute is she?
(4) start making hobbies and friends before you sell your soul to keep the relationship going.
(5) do not under any circumstances get financially or romantically or sexual involved with someone else.

Look at investments and financial protection schemes that make sure your savings are protected. Personally I like physical gold or similar - so when she splits because suddenly she don't get the free ride and manservant and wants her cash settlement , you're protected.

Do it while you still can, and while you still have the support base around you. It gets much harder as you commit more resources and sacrifices for the marriage.

(and finally, also never expect reciprocation or recognition. Woman are only ever about "yes but what can you do for me tomorrow")


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## luvinhim

You people on this site are soo full of shiit sometimes. It is so clear that is wife his lazy. She gets to enjoy the benefits of him making the most money, while she takes a job in retail chatting up with the customers, and I must say she probably does not have much she is responsible for. She likes it this way.

Who would take a job that is full of responsibilities when they can take a job in retail. Sell some shiit, total up the recipts for the day and still get to drive the car she want, buy the clothes she wants, eat the food she wants, and have all the priveleges of her husbands salary.

They have no children, she works part time, is not contributing much in the form of financial. Hell she should clean the dam house. It this were a man, you guys would be calling him a lazy ass. 

Darwin, you wife likes her lifestyle and she will not do more to change it. I say total up the montly expeses and tell her to pay half and she can do what she wants to do. Take your extra money and save it or buy something that you have been wanting for a long time.

Do not have kids with her yet. If she gets pregnant she will quit her job, be a stay a home mother, expect you to pay all the bills and also expect you to change diapers, feed the baby, wake up in the middle of the night to care for the child, buy a bigger house, and met her emotional needs, the sex will drop off, she will probably gain weignt....I am starting to be a bit obnoxious, but you get the drift.

Ask some of the men on TAM what happened when an already lazy wife had kidz. Enough said


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## Darwin17

Lila said:


> So this is an interesting new bit of info. It all makes sense now. Think about this for a minute.....why would your wife volunteer to work at a job that makes her miserable just to turn around and have to be a maid at home? I too would never give up my sweet retail job even if I was only making minimum wage. And I would also forgoe buying a house.....just more to clean after a long day at work. She's actually a very smart cookie.


So I am supposed to pay for everything and take care of everything in the house as well? 

We live in a small apartment and to clean it takes twice a week for 45 min to make it spotless. There is laundry for 2 people. Not sure what you are getting at here. I am not some slave driver I am all about things being equal. If I am paying for everything such as food/rent/insurance/tv/electricity what would you say would be a fair contribution on her part? 

I would love to hear what your opinion is over this.......


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## Darwin17

luvinhim said:


> You people on this site are soo full of shiit sometimes. It is so clear that is wife his lazy. She gets to enjoy the benefits of him making the most money, while she takes a job in retail chatting up with the customers, and I must say she probably does not have much she is responsible for. She likes it this way.
> 
> Who would take a job that is full of responsibilities when they can take a job in retail. Sell some shiit, total up the recipts for the day and still get to drive the car she want, buy the clothes she wants, eat the food she wants, and have all the priveleges of her husbands salary.
> 
> They have no children, she works part time, is not contributing much in the form of financial. Hell she should clean the dam house. It this were a man, you guys would be calling him a lazy ass.
> 
> Darwin, you wife likes her lifestyle and she will not do more to change it. I say total up the montly expeses and tell her to pay half and she can do what she wants to do. Take your extra money and save it or buy something that you have been wanting for a long time.
> 
> Do not have kids with her yet. If she gets pregnant she will quit her job, be a stay a home mother, expect you to pay all the bills and also expect you to change diapers, feed the baby, wake up in the middle of the night to care for the child, buy a bigger house, and met her emotional needs, the sex will drop off, she will probably gain weignt....I am starting to be a bit obnoxious, but you get the drift.
> 
> Ask some of the men on TAM what happened when an already lazy wife had kidz. Enough said


She doesn't want kids and has and IUD so non of that stuff. We have had the sex stuff taken care of years ago as I will not put up with a spouse that does not respect my needs. Floors me the dudes that let it happen to be honest. She will not get fat as we have both lost a bunch of weight together. I feel that because I "bring home the bacon" she can do her part and clean up the apartment. It to me seems fair and if it isn't I want to understand why.

I also have made it way too easy for her to fall into this lazy lifestyle as you hit the nail on the head in several ways. Her job is easy and has no stress and she really does get to do what she want's so there is an element to that. If I had someone to pay for all of my stuff I guess I could get lazy as well. 

Just frustrates me over this job thing.


----------



## frusdil

I feel very sorry for your wife.

That is all.


----------



## Darwin17

frusdil said:


> I feel very sorry for your wife.
> 
> That is all.


I want you to look into the threads of miserable husbands on this site.....no more sex......wife is fat.....she doesn't love me.......etc

The wife is probably miserable as well and there is a s#$% spiral of a relationship that is terrible for 50 years or until one of them dies. 

We avoid all of that through trust and communication. It is that simple. If something concerns my wife she tells me and if something concerns me I tell her. 

I don't see how that is bad or why you should feel sorry for her.

Oh it is the fact she cleans the apartment. Yea if she wanted to play for everything I would gladly with out even being asked take care of everything. That is not the case though and I pay for everything so she get's that instead. If she want's to contribute 50% I will gladly do 50% but I do the kitchen and that is more than enough as I pay for everything.

The only problem I have is that she has a degree and a worthless job. If we had kids it would be different but we don't. I don't think it is ok for a stay at home wife with no kids and a degree. 

We have a very solid relationship based on trust and communication in everything but this.


----------



## Starstarfish

As usual, posters here are really gender bound in their responses. When a female OP complains about a problem with a man not "living up to his potential" she's a "gold-digger" and "obviously didn't consider her marriage vows seriously about richer and poorer." 

When a man complains that his wife won't get an -adult job- which has to be one of the worst insults I can really imagine, you have people saying that's a justified attitude and that he needs to cut her off from "the money" and she's lazy. Mind blowing. 



> real job
> 
> The only problem I have is that she has a degree and a worthless job.
> 
> If she want's to contribute 50% I will gladly do 50% but I do the kitchen and that is more than enough as I pay for everything.


This gets me right where I live. My husband could be writing this post about me. I'm slightly younger (32) but I have a teacher's certificate and a Masters Degree. I work in my field (I'm a full time building substitute) but one could argue I don't have a "real job" if the cut off for "real job" requires at at least $40,000 a year. Which means that I've never arguable worked a "real job" my entire life, despite working since I was 15. 

I could turn this into a pity post, but honestly ... if my husband ever defined my full time employment as "not a real job" I'd be soul crushed in a way I'd probably never recover from. Let alone what it would do to our relationship. So let's cover a few things:

- Having a teaching degree doesn't magically produce a job. If she's already 7 years out of her field, the chances are even slimmer in a slim market of her getting a job in the right subject/grade/area. 



> "get an adult job" something 9-5 with weekends off and benefits.


- Having a teaching job won't magically make her free every weekend or every night when she needs to plan, grade, go to professional development if not college courses every X period of time to keep her license current. Expectations about involvement with the school community, etc. 

Teaching is not a 9-5 job. Neither is retail management. So that's a lose-lose either way there. 

- If you've never worked retail, you don't really get an opinion that it's just "selling things to a few customers." I've during times I couldn't find teaching employment the assistant manager at a pharmacy, a bookstore, and a clothing store. It is long thankless hours working with ungrateful people who just like some of the attitudes in the people of this thread think you are beneath them and will do disgusting, inhuman things in your store you'll need to clean up because they don't consider you human. 

- The passive aggressive "if you are working I'm not staying home" stuff is ... mean spirited and frankly, unattractive. 

Hell, I'd be hoping I got weekend hours if the alternative was sitting home and being told how I wasn't a real person and am worthless while you go out playing Frisbee Golf with all the buds. 

Please trust me from personal experience, keep this up and what sort of job she has will be an irrelevant conversation as all that money you want her to make will be spent on lawyers instead.


----------



## Darwin17

You are correct as I would probably be complaining about you here as well


----------



## Starstarfish

I'm glad that out of all of that you came to a useful and helpful conclusion. I do love to be helpful. 

The fact is you have a great relationship with your wife ... besides the fact you think she's worthless. And at some point you'll be posting that she's a WAW and be mind blown about why.


----------



## Marduk

Listen. 

You need to stop all these "pep talks" and forcing her to look for a job and all that noise. 

That's just controlling BS. 

The problem is NOT that you don't like her job or her career aspirations. 

The problem is that your financial goals are not aligned. 

It's ok. For some people this is a big deal and for some it isn't. My wife isn't lazy, but whoo boy is she spoiled. 

It drove me crazy the way she would blow through money. So it came down to a choice... Dump her and find someone I'm more financially compatible with. Or give up on my financial goals. Or make more money and learn to laugh about it. 

For me, money is just a thing. Was raised for a time in near poverty. So I know the fear of being poor. But I decided to realize that money is just a thing, and there's oceans of it out there, so go and make more. 

So that's what I did. 

You might be different and that's ok. I have a high tolerance for high maintenance women. You might not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Darwin17

Starstarfish said:


> I'm glad that out of all of that you came to a useful and helpful conclusion. I do love to be helpful.
> 
> The fact is you have a great relationship with your wife ... besides the fact you think she's worthless. And at some point you'll be posting that she's a WAW and be mind blown about why.


New here what is a WAW so I can understand your insult


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

luvinhim said:


> You people on this site are soo full of shiit sometimes. It is so clear that is wife his lazy. She gets to enjoy the benefits of him making the most money, while she takes a job in retail chatting up with the customers, and I must say she probably does not have much she is responsible for. She likes it this way.
> 
> Who would take a job that is full of responsibilities when they can take a job in retail. Sell some shiit, total up the recipts for the day and still get to drive the car she want, buy the clothes she wants, eat the food she wants, and have all the priveleges of her husbands salary.
> 
> They have no children, she works part time, is not contributing much in the form of financial. Hell she should clean the dam house. It this were a man, you guys would be calling him a lazy ass.
> 
> Darwin, you wife likes her lifestyle and she will not do more to change it. I say total up the montly expeses and tell her to pay half and she can do what she wants to do. Take your extra money and save it or buy something that you have been wanting for a long time.
> 
> Do not have kids with her yet. If she gets pregnant she will quit her job, be a stay a home mother, expect you to pay all the bills and also expect you to change diapers, feed the baby, wake up in the middle of the night to care for the child, buy a bigger house, and met her emotional needs, the sex will drop off, she will probably gain weignt....I am starting to be a bit obnoxious, but you get the drift.
> 
> Ask some of the men on TAM what happened when an already lazy wife had kidz. Enough said


LOL. Whew, some hot projection in this post.


----------



## Starstarfish

Walk-away-wife. Someone else can likely explain what it means better. 

But really, it's not meant to be an insult, but I don't take it you are going to listen to any advice short of "How do I force my wife to get a job so she's making the proper amount of money so I can consider her a person." All I can say is ... if you give your wife the regular, recurring idea that she's -just not good enough- and you don't consider her an adult, there's no way long-term that isn't going in some way affect her and your relationship and I can't think in a bad way.


----------



## Darwin17

I would like to say would love to see her try it because she can't afford to do it but I digress.

I don't ever tell her she is not good enough that would be disgusting of me to do that. I do tell her that she is too good for what she is doing for work and I don't see what is wrong with that at all. I support and root for her and if I didn't think she could do better I just would ignore it but I know she is highly intelligent and capable and it frustrates me seeing her waste her time doing what she is doing.


----------



## Spitfire

I'm in the same boat as the OP. I've got a boy in middle school and one in high school. My wife has a useful degree. She's worked 12 hour a week retail jobs for 14 years. Earns maybe $5,000 a year. She talks about the vacations she wants to go on blah blah blah. I've told her numerous times that she needs to get full time employment. There's always some excuse. She actually suggested I get a second job and thinks that since I'm part owner of a small business that I should just give myself a raise lol. I've got 6 more years of holding this marriage together then she's in for a hard dose of reality.


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## Starstarfish

If you use the language with her that you use here like "real job" "adult job" and "worthless job" I'm going to highly doubt the message of "You could do better, I believe in you" is really what comes across.

So if that's really what you mean, you need to work on delivery of your message.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

All I want is the truth to this situation and this new "lazy" talk. I'm wondering if I read the same posts as everyone else, who became angry. Read it carefully, this isn't about the job, degrees or laziness at all.


----------



## Darwin17

Starstarfish said:


> If you use the language with her that you use here like "real job" "adult job" and "worthless job" I'm going to highly doubt the message of "You could do better, I believe in you" is really what comes across.
> 
> So if that's really what you mean, you need to work on delivery of your message.


I am pretty sure you talk about your spouse a little differently in a forum to vent out vs say stuff like that. There is a wrong way and a right way if you want to stay happy.


----------



## Darwin17

phillybeffandswiss said:


> All I want is the truth to this situation and this new "lazy" talk. I'm wondering if I read the same posts as everyone else, who became angry. Read it carefully, this isn't about the job, degrees or laziness at all.


Ahhhh I want to control my wife!!!!! I want her to do everything I say and have no soul!!!!!

I want her to get a real job so I can do 2 things.

#1 have weekends off and nights off at the same time

#2 he uses her degree and pays off her student debt and helps to add to this family's future

It really is that simple


----------



## Mr The Other

Darwin17 said:


> so you are saying to do nothing and let her do nothing?


Assuming your first step was not to come on here and you have already spoken about it, you have a choice.
1) Divorce
2) Get over yourself and whiney *****.

Both involve doing something. Good luck!


----------



## Lila

Darwin17 said:


> So I am supposed to pay for everything and take care of everything in the house as well?


No, both of you should be taking some responsibility over household chores.
Your wife may not care one way or the other, but when two people are working full time jobs, it's only fair that household chores be divided equally or as fairly as the couple decides. Division of chores shouldn't be based on who brings home the fatter check. 

If your wife is only working a part time job, then yes, she should be putting in more effort at the house but if she's working a full time job, why would you choose to add more work to someone you supposedly love? What do you do while your wife is cleaning the house and washing your clothes? Watch her work? Spend time on your hobbies? Leisure or recreation activities? 



Darwin17 said:


> We live in a small apartment and to clean it takes twice a week for 45 min to make it spotless. There is laundry for 2 people. Not sure what you are getting at here. I am not some slave driver I am all about things being equal. If I am paying for everything such as food/rent/insurance/tv/electricity what would you say would be a fair contribution on her part?
> 
> I would love to hear what your opinion is over this.......


Since you asked, here goes. 

If you think he/she who brings home the bigger paycheck gets to control the other partner, then why are you surprised by your wife's continued rejection of your request for her to find a job that makes more money? Again, why would she agree to find a job that's going to make her miserable when, unless she finds a job making more money than you, is going to change NOTHING for her at home because according to you, he who brings home the bigger paycheck makes the rules, right? 

There's absolutely no incentive for her to leave her happy little job in search of one she's potentially going to hate and, to add insult to injury, won't change a damn thing for her. 

Based on your description, she doesn't seem to be a materialistic person. She may be happy living in her one bedroom apartment for the rest of her life. She also doesn't seem to want to start a family. So ask yourself, what's her incentive to look for a "grown up job" as you put it?


----------



## Mr The Other

He has a woman who does her share of the housework, works a full-time job, presumably keeps him sexually satisfied and still whines like a little girl. 

She on the other hand is with a man who, even with her working a full time job, still cannot afford a decent apartment and whines like a girl.


----------



## Lostme

I'm female and agree with OP, if she wants to buy that house etc then yes she needs to women up and do her part. There is nothing wrong with the OP wanting a better life for him and his wife and needing her help to do it. 

If she likes retail so much then she should try to move to management so she can earn more money, he has expressed to his wife more than once, that he needs her to make more money to reach their goals, and to try to change her hours so they can be together and he cleans the kitchen every night.

Give this poor guy a break, life is expensive these days and if there are 2 yes it takes 2 to make it and have a better life. It is expensive out there, and some places more than others. Would you do all you could to help your husband and your future life/ family? 

OP hand over those school loan bills to her, so she can start paying them herself. If she had to take more responsibility, in the financial security of your marriage maybe it will open her eyes when she sees what little money she has or does not have left.

When a person gets married it is because they want a partner, not a burden.


----------



## imperfectworld

This thread is a good example of one where if you don't have a frame of reference it isn't helpful to weigh in. It sucks to be in the position of the OP. I know because I share it and I love my wife too. There's not a sense of wanting to control; more of a sadness to the whole thing.


----------



## Darwin17

Mr The Other said:


> He has a woman who does her share of the housework, works a full-time job, presumably keeps him sexually satisfied and still whines like a little girl.
> 
> She on the other hand is with a man who, even with her working a full time job, still cannot afford a decent apartment and whines like a girl.


I am wondering if you are some crazy feminist. So according to you if your spouse is failing to help your family get ahead you are just supposed to sit there and take it?

Is that what you do in your marriage? No one likes to be taken advantage of and it has been that way for years. This is not wining and it is annoying that I am even having this conversation to be honest.

It takes 2 people and one isn't pulling the weight to help us get ahead.


----------



## Mr The Other

Darwin17 said:


> I am wondering if you are some crazy feminist. So according to you if your spouse is failing to help your family get ahead you are just supposed to sit there and take it?
> 
> Is that what you do in your marriage? No one likes to be taken advantage of and it has been that way for years. This is not wining and it is annoying that I am even having this conversation to be honest.
> 
> It takes 2 people and one isn't pulling the weight to help us get ahead.


So, decide how important it is. Tell her. If it is important enough to leave, then leave. If it is important enough that you are not willing to let her share the finances, then do it that way. Tell her and mean it. In my marriage, she was not lifting a finger, separating the finances would have meant she starved, her laziness was enough to leave her over. 

If I was a crazy feminist, then I would be giving you the standard lecture on how all women are amazing and you are abusing her and being bad at communication. Can you tell the difference? Instead, I am telling you that you have it fairly easy. Most feminists would claim that as misogyny.


----------



## Darwin17

Leila 

I am watching her iron shirts right now while we are watching some TV. She is ironing the shirts for my job and saving us money by not getting them going to the cleaners. 

The shirts go to work to make money.......this pays this thing called rent tomorrow. Is she paying any of it? No she is not. If that is unfair to you then you are a crazy person.

Again I really don't understand your obsession with how we split chores. There is no way I will do more than what I do currently with what she puts in. This is a partnership and people need to put into it some how. This is her way and if she had a problem I would sit and talk to her about it and would give her a very simple option. If she doesn't like the current spread of home labor she can help with the financial side if it.

I lost my job 3 years ago and I still didn't do anything else than the kitchen......want to know why? We were dipping into my savings to pay for everything and she just continued to pay her car and cell phone and that was it. If she was picking up the bills then burden would go right on me.

I don't see why this is so offensive to you


----------



## luvinhim

*I lost my job 3 years ago and I still didn't do anything else than the kitchen......want to know why? We were dipping into my savings to pay for everything and she just continued to pay her car and cell phone and that was it. If she was picking up the bills then burden would go right on me.
* 

so darwin lost his job and was still able to keep their lifestyle going while his wife only had to pay her cell phone and car note. tam(ers) are you guys serious. she is living the life on the back of her husband.

I bet she never offers up anything more than paying her cell phone and car note. do you guys know how much rent, food, life insurance, car insurance, medical insurance, clothing, extra curriculars cost. he has been a saint to his wife. who the hell is paying for those expensive ass student loans. 

i tell you what how about all you guys on this site who feels he is being controlling and belittling his wife take up a collection and help Darwin pay for all of the above menttioned expenditures.

sometimes i shake my head in disgust to some of this replies. i feel for you darwin

now if if wife was disabled and could not work, or is she had little ones at home that needed her attention i could understand. 

she is living the live of my 22 year old nephew. all he has to pay for is his car note, cell phone, and gas for the car..yet he lives in a 5 bedroom 3 bath lovely home in a lovely neighborhood. warm in the winter and cool in the summer. swimming pool in the back...get my drift


----------



## Mr The Other

luvinhim said:


> *I lost my job 3 years ago and I still didn't do anything else than the kitchen......want to know why? We were dipping into my savings to pay for everything and she just continued to pay her car and cell phone and that was it. If she was picking up the bills then burden would go right on me.
> *
> 
> so darwin lost his job and was still able to keep their lifestyle going while his wife only had to pay her cell phone and car note. tam(ers) are you guys serious. she is living the life on the back of her husband.
> 
> I bet she never offers up anything more than paying her cell phone and car note. do you guys know how much rent, food, life insurance, car insurance, medical insurance, clothing, extra curriculars cost. he has been a saint to his wife. who the hell is paying for those expensive ass student loans.
> 
> i tell you what how about all you guys on this site who feels he is being controlling and belittling his wife take up a collection and help Darwin pay for all of the above menttioned expenditures.
> 
> sometimes i shake my head in disgust to some of this replies. i feel for you darwin
> 
> now if if wife was disabled and could not work, or is she had little ones at home that needed her attention i could understand.
> 
> she is living the live of my 22 year old nephew. all he has to pay for is his car note, cell phone, and gas for the car..yet he lives in a 5 bedroom 3 bath lovely home in a lovely neighborhood. warm in the winter and cool in the summer. swimming pool in the back...get my drift


The sympathy is great. The path forward is still the same.


----------



## Darwin17

If we had kids or she was disabled or something of course things would be different but that is not the reality for me at this point in time. 

I fully admit that when she finished college and moved in with me I told her to not worry about anything and work on finding work. She got a job at a day care after that worked at a retail sales job with some Aarons or something. She then got her k-5 teaching certificate was a substitute teacher for 2 years straight. Her second summer she was out of work and I told her to get a job for the summer......that was 6 years ago and she never left it.

Now she doesn't look for anything else unless I ask her to do it.


----------



## Mr The Other

Darwin17 said:


> If we had kids or she was disabled or something of course things would be different but that is not the reality for me at this point in time.
> 
> I fully admit that when she finished college and moved in with me I told her to not worry about anything and work on finding work. She got a job at a day care after that worked at a retail sales job with some Aarons or something. She then got her k-5 teaching certificate was a substitute teacher for 2 years straight. Her second summer she was out of work and I told her to get a job for the summer......that was 6 years ago and she never left it.
> 
> Now she doesn't look for anything else unless I ask her to do it.


This time you can choose:
Mr The Sympathy: You poor man, I feel for you. I get the feeling she is not really listening or open to how you feel. She is just wrapped up in her own world and refusing to accept adult responsibility.

Mr The Other: Decide what will be the consequence for the relationship if she does not change. Accept it and tell her. It might be that you whine to your friends, it might be that you separate the finances, it might be that you leave. Be aware that there is much worse out there, but being without is pretty good. Also, there are very few parts of the world where a relationship can typically be healthy and not have the man paying most of the bills.

Ms The Feminist-Stereotype: Of course she cannot do more, with waiting on you hand and foot, cleaning up after you, raising your children single-handed and working away so you can afford luxuries. How dare you! and stop raping her.


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> We have a very solid relationship based on trust and communication in everything but this.


Interesting.

Why do you think that is? 

Could it be because what YOU think is a solid relationship, from HER side, is anything but?

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with you. Only that you don't seem to be doing a very good job of seeing things from her side. And until you do, you're spinning your wheels.


----------



## turnera

Lila said:


> Based on your description, she doesn't seem to be a materialistic person. She may be happy living in her one bedroom apartment for the rest of her life. She also doesn't seem to want to start a family. So ask yourself, what's her incentive to look for a "grown up job" as you put it?


My H is controlling. He believes that his - and only his - opinions are the right ones. That he has to make the decisions because, well, I'm a girl and can't possibly know what I want or what's right. We have a 4500-sq-ft house on the richest street in the neighborhood. When we're both working (we both got laid off this year), we earn more than $160,000/year.

And what do I dream of? A one-bedroom apartment for the rest of my life. Away from him. (on the ocean; that's my one splurge)

So yeah, his dreams? Not so much mine. And he has no idea. Because he never bothers to ASK me what my dreams are.


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> I am wondering if you are some crazy feminist. So according to you if your spouse is failing to help your family get ahead you are just supposed to sit there and take it?
> 
> Is that what you do in your marriage? No one likes to be taken advantage of and it has been that way for years. This is not wining and it is annoying that I am even having this conversation to be honest.
> 
> It takes 2 people and one isn't pulling the weight to help us get ahead.


fwiw, I agree that if both people share the same financial goals, they should both choose appropriate paths to get there.

What I am NOT seeing is acknowledgment that both of them want the same thing.


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> Leila
> 
> I am watching her iron shirts right now while we are watching some TV. She is ironing the shirts for my job and saving us money by not getting them going to the cleaners.
> 
> The shirts go to work to make money.......this pays this thing called rent tomorrow. Is she paying any of it? No she is not. If that is unfair to you then you are a crazy person.


Interesting. 

So...BOTH of you are watching a tv show. YOU are sitting on the couch watching the show. SHE is standing on her feet at an ironing table, ironing the shirts that YOU will wear, instead of sitting on the couch with you and relaxing and enjoying the show with you. She is sacrificing her enjoyment time so that YOU can wear a nice ironed shirt to work.

And your response? Instead of patting the couch next to you to ask her to come sit with you and enjoy a few minutes with you, to basically spit on her for not paying rent because she won't work the job YOU think she should work. Even though her working at XPM at night to iron your shirt contributes to that work that gets that rent.

Quite interesting viewpoint.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Darwin17 said:


> Ahhhh I want to control my wife!!!!! I want her to do everything I say and have no soul!!!!!
> 
> I want her to get a real job so I can do 2 things.
> 
> #1 have weekends off and nights off at the same time
> 
> #2 he uses her degree and pays off her student debt and helps to add to this family's future
> 
> It really is that simple


If you say so. Many of your other posts say something completely different.

Is she full or part time?
What does she do with her paychecks?
What does she make a year?


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

turnera said:


> Interesting.
> 
> So...BOTH of you are watching a tv show. YOU are sitting on the couch watching the show. SHE is standing on her feet at an ironing table, ironing the shirts that YOU will wear, instead of sitting on the couch with you and relaxing and enjoying the show with you. She is sacrificing her enjoyment time so that YOU can wear a nice ironed shirt to work.
> 
> And your response? Instead of patting the couch next to you to ask her to come sit with you and enjoy a few minutes with you, to basically spit on her for not paying rent because she won't work the job YOU think she should work. Even though her working at XPM at night to iron your shirt contributes to that work that gets that rent.
> 
> Quite interesting viewpoint.


Has he requested the shirt to be ironed? no.

she is avoiding intimacy with him, because the ironed shirt is what she married - job, income, security, social status.

the lump on the couch is just the price she figures she has to pay if she sits down in "her" house.

If he _really_ cared about the shirts he'd iron them himself or not ask her to come over - (according to women's rules applied elsewhere on this site - she'd rather do the chore than dump the responsibility and be with her husband for personal time, regardless of any disaster from not doing the responsibilities)


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Darwin17 said:


> Ahhhh I want to control my wife!!!!! I want her to do everything I say and have no soul!!!!!
> 
> I want her to get a real job so I can do 2 things.
> 
> #1 have weekends off and nights off at the same time
> 
> #2 he uses her degree and pays off her student debt and helps to add to this family's future
> 
> It really is that simple



And it is this simple :

If she gets a better paying job : She'll have to spend some weekends and nights at the same time with you - by staying in her current job she never has to admit that you're just being used to prop up the mortgage, provide security, etc. All she has to do is not change and not co-operate with you.

#2, see #1. Got to figure in *her* end goal. Adding to the _family_ future means it's less about her, and she will be _expected _ to pull her weight. Others will get a say in what she has to do and she'll have to sacrifice and co-operate. That kind of **** is what you're there to wear for her.

#2a She is using her degree. It gives her validation as a smart woman. And that gives her a "right" to demand respect and status above others. Otherwise it's really there just to impress a possible sucker to mate with.

Pay off debt? dude, this is a woman you're married to. they don't do "pay off debt". that's your job remember. her's is make sure kids earn status points and to enjoy her house/hobbies.

Read "His Needs Her Needs". this isn't a man2man team, this is a gondolia and queen deal, and it's being renegotiated everytime you blink - and you better wise up - because like me, you don't even sound like you know you're supposed to be haggling


----------



## Starstarfish

Ah, nothing like some good old misogynistic posts about how women are all conniving liars out to take advantage of someone.

Also, the idea that being a teacher demands respect from people is so laughable it hurts. And I'm pretty sure the OPs wife probably figured that out in the two years she was a substitute.


----------



## Lila

Darwin17 said:


> Leila
> 
> I am watching her iron shirts right now while we are watching some TV. She is ironing the shirts for my job and saving us money by not getting them going to the cleaners.
> 
> *The shirts go to work to make money.......this pays this thing called rent tomorrow. Is she paying any of it? No she is not. If that is unfair to you then you are a crazy person.*


There is a price to everything in life. The price your wife pays to continue to enjoy her retail job is to clean up after you and do your laundry. The price you pay to have your wife clean up after you and do your laundry is that your wife continues to work her retail job. So you pay the rent and she provides maid and laundry service. See how that works. 



Darwin17 said:


> Again I really don't understand your obsession with how we split chores. There is no way I will do more than what I do currently with what she puts in. This is a partnership and people need to put into it some how. This is her way and if she had a problem I would sit and talk to her about it and would give her a very simple option. *If she doesn't like the current spread of home labor she can help with the financial side if it.*


LOL, I'm not obsessed with how you split chores and if that's the message you got from my post then I apologize. Let me explain it a bit clearer for you. 

Your bolded statement above is exactly the point I was trying to make. Your wife probably doesn't mind the current spread of housework because she views it as her compromise to continue to work at her enjoyable, yet low wage retail job. You keep pressuring her to get a better paying job but there really is no incentive there for her to do it. 

You CANNOT force her to change and she currently has no motivation to change because she sees your arrangement as a fair trade off. When you can understand what that means, things will change in your relationship.




Darwin17 said:


> I lost my job 3 years ago and I still didn't do anything else than the kitchen......want to know why? We were dipping into my savings to pay for everything and she just continued to pay her car and cell phone and that was it. If she was picking up the bills then burden would go right on me.
> 
> I don't see why this is so offensive to you


I think you have me all wrong. I'm not at all offended by your situation as I'm not the one who has to live that existence. But you did ask for advice on how to get your wife to find a better job and I think you've received some great suggestions. 

People here have tried to give you your wife's perspective on your situation. We've given you the reasons WHY she's not interested in change and what changes you can make to prompt her to WANT to change. See, you CANNOT force someone else to change. You can only change yourself and hope that it causes your spouse to make adjustments as necessary. 

Albert Einstein had it right when he said "insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results". Nagging your wife to get a better paying job is getting you nowhere. Try something else. 

And just so you don't think I'm some raging feminist who's got an agenda on splitting household chores......I'm only a few years older than you. I make a 6 figure salary at a job that has a lot of flexibility (I work from home 2 days a week). My husband makes about 40% more than I do. I do all of the cleaning and laundry in my house. Why? Because I would rather do them during the two days I work from home than make my husband use his free time, which would otherwise be spent with me and our son, doing them. Quality time with my family is sacred to me and I will do whatever it takes to preserve that. This is _my_ incentive to doing housework. But I'll admit that I wouldn't lift a finger around the house if my husband came home waving his big ol' check in my face telling me that I HAD to do the chores because he was the bigger income earner. :surprise:

Good luck to you.


----------



## turnera

spotthedeaddog said:


> Has he requested the shirt to be ironed? no.


He never said that. Your interpretation.



spotthedeaddog said:


> she is avoiding intimacy with him, because the ironed shirt is what she married - job, income, security, social status.


Again, your interpretation.


----------



## turnera

intheory said:


> If women are to be equal to men, isn't OP's attitude okay?
> 
> He wants a marriage partner who makes a financial contribution which is closer to his own. That is important to him. He has told his wife that.


Actually, he said that when they married, he told her not to worry about it, to just be happy, IIRC. I'll go back and find the post.

So what this really is, is a deceit. He told her one thing before they married, and once they were married, he changed the rules.

I went back to see what he has really said.

Some posts:


> I freely admit *I am very dominant*.
> 
> *I highly doubt *she does not want to spend time with me
> 
> We have had the s*ex stuff taken care of* years ago as *I will not put up with a spouse that does not respect my needs*. Floors me the dudes that let it happen to be honest.
> 
> *Her job is easy and has no stress *and she really does get to do what she wants
> 
> I fully admit that when she finished college and moved in with me *I told her to not worry about anything* and work on finding work. She got a job at a day care after that worked at a retail sales job with some Aarons or something. She then got her k-5 teaching certificate was a substitute teacher for 2 years straight. *Her second summer she was out of work and I told her to get a job *for the summer......that was 6 years ago and she never left it.


You say you have excellent communication. But I will posit that, given the above, she merely learned to find happiness AROUND what you demand and expect. I know, because I did the exact same thing with MY demanding husband. I simply stopped telling him anything he didn't want to hear. It also sounds like an easy laidback job is what she's always wanted, and she just got a degree as a way to GET that, but she married a man who expected her to achieve more than that. It's very clear the message you've been sending your wife. What's missing is what her take on it is.

That said, I fully understand your frustration about money. Use that 'good communication' to sit her down and say 'this can't go on. Help me fix the budget so that we can either cut some things out so we can start saving, or help me find a solution.' You may need to take it up in front of a marriage counselor, since she seems to have lumped those controlling money conversations right into the same bin as all the other controlling conversations you seem to have had: ignore them.


----------



## heartsbeating

Darwin17 said:


> My wife has a degree with a teaching certificate. She has worked retail for the past 7 years. It has hurt us financially and she never apply's for a job as when I ask she will do like 2 in a month.
> 
> It is a sore point in our relationship as if she at least tried then I would not be so pissed about it.
> 
> Any suggestions on this?


'She never applies' ...and '2 in a month' are not one and the same. When she does apply for those jobs, what type of work is she going for?

I feel that your tone is condescending to those working retail and disrespectful to your wife's choices. Do you feel she makes good life decisions in general? I also understand how you may feel frustrated. It sounds as though your wife could be challenged more, learning more, and potentially earning more. She may not want any of that for herself though. 

With your combined goals, when will you begin to discuss the budget together? When you lost your job, before using your savings (I'm assuming you have separate finances), was there opportunity at that point to sit down together, go over what's coming in and what's going out and what was needed from each of you in that situation? 

Have you asked what she would like to achieve? What are her personal goals? What drives her? Have you asked her if she enjoys her work and what it is that she enjoys about it? The purpose simply being to understand her better. Perhaps from there, greater trust can be developed between you, and together you can begin to discover your goals as a couple, with supportive discussion of how you each contribute to achieving that together.

The reality for most of us is that we have bills to pay and desires for lifestyle that costs money. What that means will obviously vary person to person. How much do you need to earn as a couple to live the lifestyle you'd like, and feel comfortable with, together? (I don't mean for you to answer that here). Then once that is decided, how do you go about achieving and/or maintaining that together? Part of that lifestyle may well include the time you share together.

I had an after-thought... for what it's worth... I recently had an unpaid trainee working with me. As a team, the two of us worked together wonderfully. I advocated for her to gain employment with us, given the chance. She's also 38 and shared with me that being interviewed absolutely intimidates her. She can't even remember the last time she went for an interview because she finds it daunting. This would not be something readily detected given her exuberant personality. Well, an opportunity did arise and we have employed her. Part of the employment process was needing her resume. Again, she became intimidated. As we have experienced her work ethic first hand, I suggested she make it one-page and simply consider it a 'head office tick-box'. I know she procrastinated for a few days but ended up getting all her paperwork in order and now I get to work alongside this fabulously self-aware, driven, and passionate person.... who happened to get 'frozen' at the concept of interviews. Maybe your wife enjoys her job, maybe there's something holding her back. Developing the type of trust where she can share this with you, will help you gain more insight to understanding her which in turn can help you gain more insight to understanding who you are as a couple.


----------



## Yeswecan

Darwin17 said:


> Ahhhh I want to control my wife!!!!! I want her to do everything I say and have no soul!!!!!
> 
> I want her to get a real job so I can do 2 things.
> 
> #1 have weekends off and nights off at the same time
> 
> #2 he uses her degree and pays off her student debt and helps to add to this family's future
> 
> It really is that simple


Now we are at the crux of the matter...student loans. Are you a bit resentful you are helping pay for this student loan on a degree she is not using? It appears so. You accepted the fact a student loan was coming in the future for payment. When you get married it is a package deal. You accepted the package. Now it appears you have issue with it. Is this correct?


----------



## Darwin17

intheory said:


> If women are to be equal to men, isn't OP's attitude okay?
> 
> He wants a marriage partner who makes a financial contribution which is closer to his own. That is important to him. He has told his wife that.
> 
> Darwin, did you guys discuss before marriage what the financial arrangements would be? Perhaps you assumed she was on the same page as you; and you are now finding out too late that she is not.
> 
> If she helps herself to your money; then she doesn't want a simpler, cheaper lifestyle. She wants to live at a level that her income can't cover. She considers your money her own.
> 
> So, I think you are justified in expecting a higher contribution.
> 
> But, if she gets more hours at the retail location, you may have to see less of each other. There will be sacrifices one way or another.
> 
> If you don't want to be used financially, you shouldn't have to be.
> 
> If she doesn't "get" this. I think you guys need marital counseling. A third party to walk you through the steps and help you to see each other's viewpoints clearly.
> 
> Perhaps going to financial or credit counseling; to wake your wife up to financial reality?
> 
> Whatever you do DO NOT have children. You guys aren't strong enough together to do that.


We went to marriage counseling before over this subject. She went first as we were engaged but I refused to marry as she was not working. I told her get a job and we can do it the next day and by job something that is not retail/daycare/etc but a real job.

I went the the counselor the next day and then a week later we went together. The counselor asked her why she was not getting a job with her having a degree and a teaching certificate and ended up working with the wife for 3 more sessions on getting a real job.

The counselor sided with me on this and it was set in stone before we were married and it did cause problems.

We ended up getting married anyways but the issue is still there.


----------



## samyeagar

Darwin17 said:


> If we had kids or she was disabled or something of course things would be different but that is not the reality for me at this point in time.
> 
> *I fully admit that when she finished college and moved in with me I told her to not worry about anything and work on finding work*. She got a job at a day care after that worked at a retail sales job with some Aarons or something. She then got her k-5 teaching certificate was a substitute teacher for 2 years straight. Her second summer she was out of work and I told her to get a job for the summer......that was 6 years ago and she never left it.
> 
> Now she doesn't look for anything else unless I ask her to do it.





turnera said:


> *Actually, he said that when they married, he told her not to worry about it, to just be happy, IIRC*. I'll go back and find the post.
> 
> ...


Found it for you, though not quite how you remembered it...


----------



## Darwin17

I honestly wonder if I was a woman what would be said here in the same situation. We have a very strange 50's attitude with a heavy mix of feminism here.


----------



## Cletus

Darwin17 said:


> I don't ever tell her she is not good enough.


Yes, you do. You don't need to use those words to make the message loud and clear.

And maybe she isn't good enough for you. I too would have a problem with a seemingly unmotivated woman. But make no mistake about it - you're repeatedly telling her she's not good enough, and it seems that she is getting the message.


----------



## Darwin17

It is 2015 and everyone wants "equal rights" etc. Equal rights is equal expectations form your coworkers/spouse/friends etc. If it is good for a man it is good for a woman and vice versa. 

Here it is strange though:

Man with college degree working dead end job and not helping financially= deadbeat and wife should leave him

Woman with college degree working dead end job and not helping financially= husband is an ass for expecting her to help with family and she should leave as he is calling her a looser

Come on people this is just crazy

Lets call it this.....a person with a college degree is working a dead end job and not contributing financially into the family.....they can do much more but basically refuse to do it

That is my problem


----------



## NobodySpecial

Darwin17 said:


> We went to marriage counseling before over this subject. She went first as we were engaged but I refused to marry as she was not working. I told her get a job and we can do it the next day and by job something that is not retail/daycare/etc but a real job.
> 
> I went the the counselor the next day and then a week later we went together. The counselor asked her why she was not getting a job with her having a degree and a teaching certificate and ended up working with the wife for 3 more sessions on getting a real job.
> 
> The counselor sided with me on this and it was set in stone before we were married and it did cause problems.
> 
> We ended up getting married anyways but the issue is still there.


I can't find it. What does SHE say when asked 

1. Why she won't look for a different job?
2. What she wants from her work life?


----------



## Lila

Darwin17 said:


> Lets call it this.....a person with a college degree is working a dead end job and not contributing financially into the family.....they can do much more but basically refuse to do it
> 
> That is my problem


Then DIVORCE her and look for someone who won't refuse to contribute financially to your satisfaction. Problem solved.


----------



## Pluto2

Look OP, the simple truth is you can't force her to do diddlie. 
She either quits the retail work she's had since you married her, or she doesn't. You can tell her your expectations and that's about it.
If that isn't good enough for you, then leave. But no one here is going to help you brow-beat your spouse into submission.


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> I honestly wonder if I was a woman what would be said here in the same situation. We have a very strange 50's attitude with a heavy mix of feminism here.


No, because she IS working. She just isn't working the way YOU want it.

Now, if you are having money problems because of her choice of work, you can employ the advice I gave you early on: stop paying for anything for her. Make her pay her way, including her student loans. Pay the house and groceries and utilities, since you use that, and put the rest of your salary into a savings account. If she wants anything else, she can get a better job. If she doesn't want a better job, and she's content to live on $1000/month, then let her.

That way, you're saving the money you want to save and she's free to figure out how to afford whatever she wants.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

I haven't read all 7 pages - just 1 and 7. BUT based on that it seems to be SSDD.

You make her feel inadequate by pressing her to do something she doesn't want to.

Instead, how about lead a discussion and let her come to her own conclusion - a conclusion which you will either support, have to live with or leave.

"Are you happy here or do you see us in a nice house?" If she's content where she is, it will be difficult to make her want to do more.

If she says nice house:

"I make X, you make Y, and I've been looking (show home guide examples) and I was thinking something in the price range of Z. What do you think - is that too much/too little house?"

If she wants more house than X+Y will get:

"I'm not sure how to get there. Maybe you have some ideas. I know I'm up for a raise next year so it will be a little more but not much. Are you interested in working toward a promotion at work?" 

If yes, press on:

"I can tell you'd be really good at that! And it sounds like you would enjoy it, too. Would that also come with some weekends off because I'd really love to be able to take some weekend trips sometimes."

LEAD HER IN THE DISCUSSION to come to the same conclusions you have. She needs to determine for herself she wants more. You can't make her want more. But if she doesn't and she likes the environment and doesn't mind the weekends you'll have a big decision to make.


----------



## samyeagar

Darwin17 said:


> We went to marriage counseling before over this subject. She went first as we were engaged but I refused to marry as she was not working. I told her get a job and we can do it the next day and by job something that is not retail/daycare/etc but a real job.
> 
> I went the the counselor the next day and then a week later we went together. The counselor asked her why she was not getting a job with her having a degree and a teaching certificate and ended up working with the wife for 3 more sessions on getting a real job.
> 
> The counselor sided with me on this and it was set in stone before we were married and it did cause problems.
> 
> *We ended up getting married anyways but the issue is still there*.


You compromised a boundary on the faith and assumption that she would fulfill her part at a later date. You trusted her, and got burned. Unfortunately, ultimately this is on you for compromising your boundary.


----------



## turnera

And there's also the possibility that she ENJOYS working during hours he's at home. You know, to avoid the disapproval and pressure. Women often just shut down in the face of aggressive men. And the men continue obliviously believing she's happy because she seems fine. And then 10 years later, she just walks away.


----------



## Mr The Other

Darwin17 said:


> It is 2015 and everyone wants "equal rights" etc. Equal rights is equal expectations form your coworkers/spouse/friends etc. If it is good for a man it is good for a woman and vice versa.
> 
> Here it is strange though:
> 
> Man with college degree working dead end job and not helping financially= deadbeat and wife should leave him
> 
> Woman with college degree working dead end job and not helping financially= husband is an ass for expecting her to help with family and she should leave as he is calling her a looser
> 
> Come on people this is just crazy
> 
> Lets call it this.....a person with a college degree is working a dead end job and not contributing financially into the family.....they can do much more but basically refuse to do it
> 
> That is my problem


You are right. You are taking the point of view of a reasonable feminist. However, you would have to go to Scandinavia to find that as mainstream opinion. Traditionally, the man is primarily responsible for the finances.


----------



## Darwin17

When she is home what I do is force her to wear things she doesn't like to wear. I also really enjoy yelling at her at least every 20 min on her not keeping the house in order. The other time I spend staring at her in disapproval and shake my head.

That is what you think happens but it is not how we live our life. I ask her once a week on Sunday night to see her applications or evidence of it with the expectation of 14 or 2 a day. This is because she doesn't do it otherwise so I just have to take a check. I HATE the fact I have to do this mind you but it is the only thing that works. 

I can't punish her or send her to her room as she is an adult. Sometimes adults need accountability partners to help with issues such as weight watchers or exercise or study and I treat it like that. I show her good habits on job searches and help with her resume as well as finding sources for her to make the search easier.

So it goes like this in reality.

I sent a text today "we need 14 by Sunday" and she responded "I am working on it". When Sunday evening comes up I will see where she is at and if she didn't do 14 we have a discussion on what is going on and what the issue is. 

I do not call that brow beating or belittling or anything negative. It is an number we agreed that she can do and is more than she has ever done and is way less than I think is reasonable. 

How is that being a bad spouse?


----------



## Rowan

I think some of the friction in this thread comes from miscommunication. The OP asked what he should do about his wife working below her potential. People offered suggestions as to some ways to approach negotiating the matter, in the assumption that what he wanted was to remain married to her and find a solution to this problem. It seems, though, that what the OP actually wanted was either a way to force his wife to be different or just some validation that she is wrong and he is right. I'm not sure he actually wants to do anything differently himself that might result in a change to the situation - he just wants to know how to make her change in the way he wants. 

OP, you and your wife are not compatible on this issue. You cannot force her to change. If you would like her to change, then you will need to change yourself in some way so that she will change in reaction to you. If that does not sound appealing, then you need to get a divorce. Or, you can stay, do nothing different than you have been, and continue building resentment on both sides. It won't solve the problem, of course, but it will allow you hold on to being "right" until your marriage ends. 

But no amount of "See, all these strangers from the internet agree that you're wrong" is going to convince her to change. Sorry.


----------



## Satya

samyeagar said:


> You compromised a boundary on the faith and assumption that she would fulfill her part at a later date. You trusted her, and got burned. Unfortunately, ultimately this is on you for compromising your boundary.


Took the words from my fingertips.


----------



## Rowan

Darwin17 said:


> So it goes like this in reality.
> 
> *I sent a text today "we need 14 by Sunday" and she responded "I am working on it". When Sunday evening comes up I will see where she is at and if she didn't do 14 we have a discussion on what is going on and what the issue is.
> 
> I do not call that brow beating or belittling or anything negative. It is an number we agreed that she can do and is more than she has ever done and is way less than I think is reasonable.
> 
> *How is that being a bad spouse?



That's being a good, if somewhat managing depending on age, _parent_. It's not actually being a good spouse. Unless, of course, she suggested that you oversee her in this in this way? Did she? Who came up with this accountability partnership/parenting plan?

Parenting a spouse is counterproductive, and irritating and frustrating for both parties. 

Check out a book called Lovebusters by Willard Harley. His book His Needs, Her Needs might also be helpful to you both.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

intheory said:


> If women are to be equal to men, isn't OP's attitude okay?


Depends on what you are focused on. We've told women, on this very board, the same thing. Accept what your husband does for work or leave. So, no, I don't think his attitude is right regardless of gender. 

Anyway, I keyed in on this post:


Darwin17 said:


> So the question came into what is next and she really could not answer. *I was told that maybe getting into secretary work will be ok and to be honest it will pay similar and she will have weekends off and that will be nice.*


Kind of interesting he's okay with a secretary job, which will pay the same as retail in many cases, because it will have weekends off. So, to me, all of the other stuff is resentment. He wants her to work a job that gives her weekends off, but it doesn't have to be higher paying. This is why I am not listening to her being lazy, the cries of feminism or arguments of gender inequality. To me, after this post, it was a deflection of the real issue. He resents her for not being available on the weekends. He is expressing that through gender and financial responsibility issues. 


They need counseling and he needs to learn how to communicate in an effective manner. "Look honey, I want to spend more time with you and retail isn't helping our relationship." sounds much better than, "have you applied for new jobs" and "I'll be hanging out with friends while you work" passive aggressive communication tactics every four months. She needs to learn how to say look here is the reason I have worked retail for 7 years, instead of clamming up and not discussing this with her husband.


Does anyone else see the irony in saying 50s feminist attitudes and then being okay with a secretary job?


----------



## Satya

OP, your wife wants to do what she wants. It's not going to mesh with what you expect in a partner. She's a grown woman, you're a grown man. No one is saying you should tolerate her ways if it's not going to work,but the solution then is to divorce. 

She may want a man that carries her (good luck to her in this world, but maybe it's what she wanta) and when you told her early on not to worry, she probably thought that's who YOU were, a man that would solve problems so she wouldn't have to. So, she's probably also disappointed that you've now turned into her father, asking to see how many applications she's completed weekly. You're both too old for this stuff. I'd say move on and learn not to compromise your boundaries ever again.


----------



## Darwin17

It is an issue in our relationship but as long as I see her trying then I am happy as that action will lead into results. This is not something we will be separating over as we truly do love each other and enjoy our life in general.

She seems to be motivated enough at this point as I last week told her she gets the electric bill and had it transferred to her name and that has probably put a strain on her. Yesterday was her day off and when I got home she was actually applying for jobs! 

Her mom didn't work but her mom didn't have a degree and had 3 kids and they grew up fairly poor. She understands that she has an education and we don't have kids so needs to do something. 

All in all though we are a really good pair except for this one thing. I have no other complaints what so ever about her other than this. I will continue to give her accountability in the search and help her as much as I can as this is a issue for me. 

I don't see her as a "delicate flower" type as in college she had undiagnosed ADD as well as narcolepsy and her parents suddenly stopped paying for college her Jr year. She didn't give up and it was tough for her but she pushed on and accomplished her goal. She had every excuse in the world to quit college but did it anyways. I see that person still in her and hope with a couple of interviews she will get her confidence up that this works. 

If I didn't have high expectations from my wife and would just settle for what she is doing now.....what would that say about me?


----------



## NobodySpecial

It is really interesting that you don't seem to want to answer this

I can't find it. What does SHE say when asked

1. Why she won't look for a different job?
2. What she wants from her work life? 

Why is that? I am going to make a guess. You don't care what she says or thinks. Your way is the RIGHT way. In marriage, there is no objective right. There are just problems that need to be solved. When you get stuck in a right fight, problems don't get solved. Then resentment and all that fun stuff is almost inevitable. But usually people don't get it until their marriage is over.


----------



## Mr The Other

Darwin17 said:


> I freely admit I am very dominant. If she was going into management I would completely support it. I would not like the hrs still but I would see that as a massive step in the right direction. I highly doubt she does not want to spend time with me and I find this funny.


In this situation, you are not dominant clearly, as you are not getting your way. 

I was harsh on you earlier, but you are in a tough spot. A woman attracted to a man comfortable being in charge is not going to be a woman eager to take on personal responsibility. There may have been a deal that you would make all the tough difficult stressful decisions and leave her to relax. By then looking to her to take on traditional male responsibility, she may feel you are letting her down.

There are a few reasons to want your way on this.
-	You really need the money to take a break. Perfectly reasonable, but if she is less feminist than you, she might be resistant.
-	Because it is really important to you that things are done your way. This would reflect weakness on your part as you cannot cope with the world having its own way.
-	You are the responsible grown up, in which case you are left with the same path forward. Decide what is acceptable to you. Communicate it clearly, if she can accept it, fine, if not walk away. Maybe would cannot accept her not doing either most of the housework or earning as much as she can, maybe only one is required.

Good work on the electricity bill. It is easy to say things clearly and unambiguously, communicating them is often far harder.


----------



## Darwin17

NobodySpecial said:


> It is really interesting that you don't seem to want to answer this
> 
> I can't find it. What does SHE say when asked
> 
> 1. Why she won't look for a different job?
> 2. What she wants from her work life?
> 
> Why is that? I am going to make a guess. You don't care what she says or thinks. Your way is the RIGHT way. In marriage, there is no objective right. There are just problems that need to be solved. When you get stuck in a right fight, problems don't get solved. Then resentment and all that fun stuff is almost inevitable. But usually people don't get it until their marriage is over.


1. She doesn't like what she does now and want's better.....only problem she doesn't do it unless I am on her about it

2. She does not know and I have given her several places to look at with self testing as well as programs from the city and she has not done any of them.

Again you have this though process that I beat on my wife or something and it is my way or the highway. I just want to see her develop and grow. If she was consistently applying for jobs then we would not be having this discussion.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Darwin17 said:


> 1. She doesn't like what she does now and want's better.....only problem she doesn't do it unless I am on her about it


That is not what I asked. I asked what she says when you ask her WHY she won't look for a job. If there is an obstacle, then maybe the obstacle can be removed. 



> 2. She does not know and I have given her several places to look at with self testing as well as programs from the city and she has not done any of them.


So my guess would be that she does not know how and just lobbing some resources at her isn't the kind of education or information that she can use. The other thing to consider is that motivation does not come from a place of insecurity or fear. If her not knowing how makes her feel bad, that is a massive demotivator. I wonder if baby steps would be helpful. Step 1, a resume draft for instance.



> Again you have this though process that I beat on my wife or something and it is my way or the highway.


Again? This is the first conversation that I have had with you on this topic. I have said exactly nothing about your beating up on your wife.



> I just want to see her develop and grow. If she was consistently applying for jobs then we would not be having this discussion.


Well you already know how well what you have been doing to encourage her so far have worked. Oh neat. That is a cool word. EnCOURAGE. Hot damn I did not even do that on purpose at first.


----------



## Darwin17

NobodySpecial said:


> That is not what I asked. I asked what she says when you ask her WHY she won't look for a job. If there is an obstacle, then maybe the obstacle can be removed.
> 
> 
> 
> So my guess would be that she does not know how and just lobbing some resources at her isn't the kind of education or information that she can use. The other thing to consider is that motivation does not come from a place of insecurity or fear. If her not knowing how makes her feel bad, that is a massive demotivator. I wonder if baby steps would be helpful. Step 1, a resume draft for instance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again you have this though process that I beat on my wife or something and it is my way or the highway.
> [/quote
> Again? This is the first conversation that I have had with you on this topic. I have said exactly nothing about your beating up on your wife.
> 
> 
> 
> Well you already know how well what you have been doing to encourage her so far have worked. Oh neat. That is a cool word. EnCOURAGE. Hot damn I did not even do that on purpose at first.
> 
> 
> 
> When asked she answers "I don't know why" and leaves it at that
> 
> She did not come up with the way I am trying to support her on this as nothing has ever worked over the past 10 years other than me making sure she is actually doing it. Unfortunately that puts me in the position where I am acting like a parent riding their kid who does not do their homework.
> 
> I absolutely hate that this is the only way it works as I don't think I should need to do that to a grown adult who I care about so deeply. The only solution I have seen is something that I am doing now.
> 
> I have another example though and it was about her Narcolepsy. She for years was always falling asleep everywhere to the point it was like being home alone when she go home. She would pass out in action movies and almost any time she was sitting down. I asked her for several years to see a sleep specialist and she never did as I guess she never was seeing it as a problem or whatever her internal thoughts were.
> 
> So after about 3 years of me pestering her to go as well as even scheduling the meetings with a specialist and her not going I put my foot down. This is what I told her "Insurance is up for renewal and if you don't see a Dr over this issue I am going to cancel your insurance"......low and behold she got a sleep study done that week and got a diagnosis of Narcolepsy and started taking medication for it. It was like a new person and a new lease on life for her.
> 
> Was I an ass for making her do that? By the attitude expressed here by most I am a complete ass for forcing her to do something she did not want to do or care to do. But it cannot be denied that it helped her quality of life, my quality of life, and our relationship.
> 
> It is the same thing with her getting an adult job
Click to expand...


----------



## Darwin17

intheory said:


> If your wife has "lost her way", so to speak (or perhaps has never found it at all), could something like the Myers-Briggs (sp?) personality tests be a place to start?
> 
> Some people find it very useful for determining what type of career to focus on. You know, just knowing to go east, instead of north, south or west.
> 
> And the introspection required might be useful to her too. Especially if she looks to others for strength, and even for personal identity.
> 
> You could take the tests together. Might be fun?


I forced her to take that a year ago........


----------



## Pluto2

OP, if my (now ex) H instructed me to have 14 applications ready on Sunday, I would tell him where to shove the apps. After I finished laughing in his face.

I'm sorry that you don't view this as controlling. It is.
But I guess as long as you both put up with it. ... whatever.


----------



## Darwin17

Pluto2 said:


> OP, if my (now ex) H instructed me to have 14 applications ready on Sunday, I would tell him where to shove the apps. After I finished laughing in his face.
> 
> I'm sorry that you don't view this as controlling. It is.
> But I guess as long as you both put up with it. ... whatever.


Yea I see it worked for you as well


----------



## Darwin17

intheory said:


> Darwin17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, if she's got something tangible to lose (insurance benefits), she takes immediate action. Interesting.
> 
> That suggests she is completely capable. And very lazy and stubborn.
> 
> How did the Myers-Briggs tests turn out, btw?
> 
> 
> 
> from what I remember she needed to go into Social Work type of job where she is helping people.
> 
> Her degree is in Applied Sociology so that type of work would be great. She has a big heart and loves to help others.
Click to expand...


----------



## Yeswecan

Darwin17 said:


> It is an issue in our relationship but as long as I see her trying then I am happy as that action will lead into results. This is not something we will be separating over as we truly do love each other and enjoy our life in general.
> 
> She seems to be motivated enough at this point as I last week told her she gets the electric bill and had it transferred to her name and that has probably put a strain on her. Yesterday was her day off and when I got home she was actually applying for jobs!
> 
> Her mom didn't work but her mom didn't have a degree and had 3 kids and they grew up fairly poor. She understands that she has an education and we don't have kids so needs to do something.
> 
> All in all though we are a really good pair except for this one thing. I have no other complaints what so ever about her other than this. I will continue to give her accountability in the search and help her as much as I can as this is a issue for me.
> 
> I don't see her as a "delicate flower" type as in college she had undiagnosed ADD as well as narcolepsy and her parents suddenly stopped paying for college her Jr year. She didn't give up and it was tough for her but she pushed on and accomplished her goal. She had every excuse in the world to quit college but did it anyways. I see that person still in her and hope with a couple of interviews she will get her confidence up that this works.
> 
> If I didn't have high expectations from my wife and would just settle for what she is doing now.....what would that say about me?


I would say your are one who lets another live their life as they see fit.


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> She seems to be motivated enough at this point as I last week told her she gets the electric bill and had it transferred to her name and that has probably put a strain on her. Yesterday was her day off and when I got home she was actually applying for jobs!


Huh. So what I said (twice) works. Stop making her life easy financially, and she will respond. Until then, she had no reason to.



> All in all though we are a really good pair except for this one thing. I have no other complaints what so ever about her other than this. I will continue to give her accountability in the search and help her as much as I can as this is a issue for me.


Which tells me this is a communication issue. YOUR logic is not HER logic, and if you want something from her, you have to make it logical from HER viewpoint.



> If I didn't have high expectations from my wife and would just settle for what she is doing now.....what would that say about me?


Uh, that you love her and want her to be happy?


----------



## Spitfire

She simply doesn't want to do more than she is. You can try to force the issue but it will just create other problems (resentment). In a couple of months you'll be posting about infrequent sex. Maybe just drop it and do the "180". If her meal ticket is in jeopardy she may see the light.


----------



## Darwin17

intheory said:


> Darwin17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But doesn't appear to want to help you with your financial concerns?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand everything about women.......most of the time the other sex is an enigma to me and I just go with it
Click to expand...


----------



## Darwin17

Spitfire said:


> She simply doesn't want to do more than she is. You can try to force the issue but it will just create other problems (resentment). In a couple of months you'll be posting about infrequent sex. Maybe just drop it and do the "180". If her meal ticket is in jeopardy she may see the light.


That would be a negative my friend. 14 years into it and I can count on it like clockwork 4-6 sessions of something per week. It did drop off for a bit several years ago but we had a discussion and we are good to go in that department.


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> 1. She doesn't like what she does now and want's better.....only problem she doesn't do it unless I am on her about it
> 
> 2. She does not know and I have given her several places to look at with self testing as well as programs from the city and she has not done any of them.
> 
> Again you have this though process that I beat on my wife or something and it is my way or the highway. I just want to see her develop and grow. If she was consistently applying for jobs then we would not be having this discussion.


Now you're just being silly. It's pretty clear you don't take criticism well. Which would go along with an aggressive personality.

NOBODY has said you 'beat on' your wife. It has been suggested that you pressure her, look down on her, and basically make her feel inferior. 

btw, the things you mention above, you said she has ADD. You realize that people with ADD have a hard time following through on anything, right?


----------



## Darwin17

I put looking down at someone and making them feel inferior to be a form of abuse is all.

She is on medication that takes care of ADD and Narcolepsy yes.......here is the thing about things like this and it is reality. If you have ADD it is your problem.....no one cares. That is a fact of life and you have to overcome it.

I understand she has it but I don't let that ever be an excuse as that would be letting her think she is inferior to me because of it and I won't let that happen


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> It is the same thing with her getting an adult job


Some of the most precious people in my life - my MIL included, as well as my mentor - were lifetime retail workers. They loved their jobs, loved talking to people, helping people, stocking, cashiering, keeping an area neat and clean. It gave them a great sense of self. 

And they were fabulous 'adults.' 

I wouldn't trade that for a roomful of bratty kids to save my life.

What's really going on here is she is not subscribing to YOUR plan for your life/lives. A plan YOU decided on. And that you keep pushing her to embrace.

If nothing else, ask her to go to marriage counseling again, so you can discuss it TOGETHER in front of a professional, so that you can get to the root of WHY she isn't buying into your plan. It could be any number of things - low confidence, low expectations, happiness with retail, resentment of you, ADD...who knows? But if you two love each other as much as you say, and this STILL is not getting resolved, it's because _she doesn't want to resolve it_. And that's not going to change until you both DISCUSS it, hopefully in front of a professional.


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> I *forced *her to take that a year ago........


Do you even hear yourself?


----------



## turnera

intheory said:


> So, if she's got something tangible to lose (insurance benefits), she takes immediate action. Interesting.
> 
> That suggests she is completely capable. And very lazy and stubborn.


I would be stubborn too if my H treated me like his child.

Wait. You know what? My H HAS done this to me over certain things that he 'believed' should be done a certain way. 

Guess what I did?

I ignored him and did what I wanted.


----------



## Spitfire

Is she a submissive type? My wife would freak out if I made her show evidence of 14 job applications per week. Some strange dynamics going on for sure.


----------



## Darwin17

tunera,

This husband wishes there was some other way to motivate the wife other than treat her like a child but in this case the wife doesn't do it unless I do

And yes I forced my wife to take a Myers Briggs test as she didn't know what she wanted to do and didn't know where to start

I am sure you have an issue with me forcing her to go see a Dr for her Narcolepsy problem as well?


----------



## Satya

Darwin17 said:


> I absolutely hate that this is the only way it works as I don't think I should need to do that to a grown adult who I care about so deeply.


This is why I do not think this is sustainable. She won't help herself. Helping her falls onto you being "mean" and putting your foot down as the only way to help her. The other part of this is, maybe she doesn't care to help herself? 

Do you see that stepping in to "solve" things actually won't help her become independent at all? It's just nice guy behavior and it'll eventually make you resent her, whether or not it's "working" right now.


----------



## NobodySpecial

How is this helping HER? This is him "helping" her to help HIM.


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> That would be a negative my friend. 14 years into it and I can count on it like clockwork 4-6 sessions of something per week. It did drop off for a bit several years ago but we had a discussion and we are good to go in that department.


Yeah, that discussion where you told her she WOULD be giving you good, regular sex or you would be divorcing her. I remember you talking about it.

Great loving going on there.


----------



## Yeswecan

Darwin17 said:


> I put looking down at someone and making them feel inferior to be a form of abuse is all.
> 
> She is on medication that takes care of ADD and Narcolepsy yes.......here is the thing about things like this and it is reality. If you have ADD it is your problem.....no one cares. That is a fact of life and you have to overcome it.*
> 
> 
> 
> If no one cared pharmaceutical companies would not have developed medication to help folks enjoy life better. People care. I'm not so sure if you do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *I understand she has it but I don't let that ever be an excuse as that would be letting her think she is inferior to me because of it and I won't let that happen.*
> 
> 
> 
> Has your W used this as an excuse or are you projecting?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *


----------



## Yeswecan

NobodySpecial said:


> How is this helping HER? This is him "helping" her to help HIM.


Agreed.


----------



## Satya

NobodySpecial said:


> How is this helping HER? This is him "helping" her to help HIM.


He doesn't see it that way.


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> I understand she has it but *I don't let that ever be an excuse* as that would be *letting her think* she is inferior to me because of it and I won't let that happen


Too late.


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> tunera,
> 
> This husband wishes there was some other way to motivate the wife other than treat her like a child but in this case the wife doesn't do it unless I do
> 
> And yes I forced my wife to take a Myers Briggs test as she didn't know what she wanted to do and didn't know where to start
> 
> I am sure you have an issue with me forcing her to go see a Dr for her Narcolepsy problem as well?


Of course I do. She's a woman, not a dog.

Every single thing you've described about the way you treat her is one of ownership, direction, punishment, and, of course, full belief that despite all this, she is blissfully happy with you.

And it sounds to me like she DOES know what she wants to do - she's doing it!

You just are unwilling to LET her do what she wants because it isn't what YOU want.

What were your parents like?


----------



## Darwin17

turnera said:


> Yeah, that discussion where you told her she WOULD be giving you good, regular sex or you would be divorcing her. I remember you talking about it.
> 
> Great loving going on there.


I would say having an honest discussion about things like this with a spouse is a healthy thing in a marriage. In no way did I throw some ultimatum of divorce as it never got to be a problem like that.

If she approached me with something important in the relationship I needed to work on then I would do it without question once we had a proper discussion about it.


----------



## Darwin17

Projecting....no

If you are at work and you have ADD and you don't do your job.....you get fired

hard reality is that you have to work past your issues and this is no different. I never even knew it was an issue with the ADD but I did know there was an issue with Narcolepsy.

Either way she got help after I made her go to the DR.


----------



## NobodySpecial

If I were your wife, after a history of being forced into doing things, I would not feel safe being honest with you.


----------



## Darwin17

Satya said:


> This is why I do not think this is sustainable. She won't help herself. Helping her falls onto you being "mean" and putting your foot down as the only way to help her. The other part of this is, maybe she doesn't care to help herself?
> 
> Do you see that stepping in to "solve" things actually won't help her become independent at all? It's just nice guy behavior and it'll eventually make you resent her, whether or not it's "working" right now.


By this I am sure you also have a problem with forcing her to see a Dr over Narcolepsy.

I did force her to do something she didn't seem to care about and want to do........


----------



## Darwin17

NobodySpecial said:


> If I were your wife, after a history of being forced into doing things, I would not feel safe being honest with you.


Making her seek medical attention?

Making her find out what she would do for a rewarding career?

Sometimes you need to help someone help them-self.

I am sorry for the way I am presenting this as you seem to think I put a gun to her head.

When you say you would not feel safe you really don't know me.......


----------



## NobodySpecial

Darwin17 said:


> *Making *her seek medical attention?
> 
> *Making *her find out what she would do for a rewarding career?
> 
> Sometimes you need to help someone help them-self.
> 
> I am sorry for the way I am presenting this as you seem to think I put a gun to her head.
> 
> When you say you would not feel safe you really don't know me.......


Yes. If that had been me, I would not trust you with honesty. It is what it is. You don't want to hear it. But it is.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Furthermore, when there is a pattern of you overriding her and "making" her do things, why would she do anything on her own? You have trained her to simply rest on her laurels until you push.


----------



## Darwin17

turnera said:


> Of course I do. She's a woman, not a dog.
> 
> Every single thing you've described about the way you treat her is one of ownership, direction, punishment, and, of course, full belief that despite all this, she is blissfully happy with you.
> 
> And it sounds to me like she DOES know what she wants to do - she's doing it!
> 
> You just are unwilling to LET her do what she wants because it isn't what YOU want.
> 
> What were your parents like?



I am owning her getting a new job yes. [[/B]

I do give her direction sometimes yes.

Is the blissfully happy with me.....not all the time

Letting her do her current action of nothing is not an option. It is for our best interest in the future. I consider this just like the time I *FORCED HER* to see a Dr for her Narcolepsy. If that makes me a bad spouse I think you will just never understand.

My parents in my opinion are some of the best parents I could ever have wished for. The had 18 foster kids before they had me and once my sister and myself left the house they continued the theme. They had problems like any other relationship but worked through them. I grew up in a fairly strict household where there was order and expectations. I made good grades and went to a good college etc.


----------



## Satya

OP, I think I understand where you're coming from. My ex H did exactly the same thing you did, once. He asked for a status report of my job search every day. I was well educated but in a different country so my job history wasn't very recognized. Getting work was tough and I went through several pretty [email protected] jobs. In the end, I got a decent job of my own accord after he told me that he couldn't stay in the relationship until I got a job. He'd stopped babysitting me, he just said basically, "job to help pay our bills or gtfo." He wasn't wrong. 

But, the methods of motivation he thought were good for me, only led me to resent him and want to do the opposite. When he spoke a language I understood, and stopped forcing my decisions, I took control of my own fate. Once he let me be an adult, set his boundary with me, and left ME to make the decision, I made it and took responsibility for my choice to find work. Although we didn't last as a couple, it was a learning experience for us both. 

Can you see the difference in making her do things vs telling her your boundary, and leaving her to make her own choice?


----------



## Darwin17

Satya said:


> OP, I think I understand where you're coming from. My ex H did exactly the same thing you did, once. He asked for a status report of my job search every day. I was well educated but in a different country so my job history wasn't very recognized. Getting work was tough and I went through several pretty [email protected] jobs. In the end, I got a decent job of my own accord after he told me that he couldn't stay in the relationship until I got a job. He'd stopped babysitting me, he just said basically, "job to help pay our bills or gtfo." He wasn't wrong.
> 
> But, the methods of motivation he thought were good for me, only led me to resent him and want to do the opposite. When he spoke a language I understood, and stopped forcing my decisions, I took control of my own fate. Once he let me be an adult, set his boundary with me, and left ME to make the decision, I made it and took responsibility for my choice to find work. Although we didn't last as a couple, it was a learning experience for us both.
> 
> Can you see the difference in making her do things vs telling her your boundary, and leaving her to make her own choice?


I see exactly what you are saying I just don't know how to do it is the problem I have.

Divorce sucks and I am sorry to hear about it. I went through one as well before my current wife.


----------



## Yeswecan

Darwin17 said:


> Projecting....no
> 
> If you are at work and you have ADD and you don't do your job.....you get fired
> 
> hard reality is that you have to work past your issues and this is no different. I never even knew it was an issue with the ADD but I did know there was an issue with Narcolepsy.
> 
> Either way she got help after I made her go to the DR.


Here is the thing Dawin17 that is raising hairs here...perhaps it is your style of writing..."you made her go." Did you make her go or did you suggest that seeking professional help on the unknown ADD and known Narcolepsy was suggested by you? Or did your physically toss her into the car and drop her at the receptionists at the Dr. and have here fill out the paperwork for her appointment you scheduled? 

When it comes to Dr. and my W I do not make her go. That is up to her. She has "white coat syndrome" and hates going to the Dr.


----------



## Darwin17

Yeswecan said:


> Here is the thing Dawin17 that is raising hairs here...perhaps it is your style of writing..."you made her go." Did you make her go or did you suggest that seeking professional help on the unknown ADD and known Narcolepsy was suggested by you? Or did your physically toss her into the car and drop her at the receptionists at the Dr. and have here fill out the paperwork for her appointment you scheduled?
> 
> When it comes to Dr. and my W I do not make her go. That is up to her. She has "white coat syndrome" and hates going to the Dr.


The Dr was simple. After trying to get her to go for several years and even scheduling meetings for her it came to a head. It was new insurance time at work and when I got home that night I said the following "If you don't see a Dr over your sleeping issue I will cancel your insurance". I would consider that making her do it if she wanted health insurance.

I refuse to get "physical" like what you are talking about. I am much bigger and stronger than the wife. I am not a fan of abuse at all.


----------



## Blondilocks

Mr The Other said:


> He has a woman who does her share of the housework, works a full-time job, presumably keeps him sexually satisfied and still whines like a little girl.
> 
> She on the other hand is with a man who, even with her working a full time job, still cannot afford a decent apartment and *whines like a girl.*


Something keeps nagging at me that I'm supposed to be offended by this description but, I'm not. It's funny as hell. :grin2:


----------



## turnera

NobodySpecial said:


> If I were your wife, after a history of being forced into doing things, I would not feel safe being honest with you.


Well, that's what I was trying to say. Women don't often go head to head with men, especially men who admit they are aggressive. The women simply stop participating. Find other ways to get what they need. Find ways to avoid what he's pushing - or avoid him altogether. Maybe she is ASKING for work on nights you are home and you'll never even know it. By the time I was 35, I'd been married almost 15 years, and I knew full well how to navigate around the things my H decided I should or shouldn't do while not listening to my viewpoint. I smiled, I gave him sex, I laughed, I acted like I was having a great life - and I went to a therapist and bawled my eyes out.

I'm not saying she's doing this. I'm saying it's possible she's doing this and you'll probably never know. Because you two don't have an equal partnership. And she will not include you into her thinking process ("I don't know" is the single most common response for such women) if it's not safe to do so or if she gets railroaded or if you interrupt her or talk over her or if you ask to see 14 resumes by Sunday. YOU will have become not safe.

I'm just asking you to consider the possibility.


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> By this I am sure you also have a problem with forcing her to see a Dr over Narcolepsy.
> 
> I did force her to do something she didn't seem to care about and want to do........


You said yourself that SHE didn't have a problem with her narcolepsy. SHE had no REASON to see a doctor because it didn't bother her. Sure, if she'd fallen asleep at work and gotten reprimanded, it might matter to her more. 

It bothered YOU because she wasn't interacting with you when she slept. So you wanted her to fix it so she would be present for YOU.

Again, another thing YOU forced her to deal with for YOUR benefit.


----------



## kag123

I've read this whole thread. Only one other poster pointed out what, to me, is the absolute crux of your problems:

You compromised on a boundary you set.

You knew this was important to you before marriage. Enough so that you sought counseling and gave an ultimatum to enforce it during the engagement. 

Then, somehow even though she did not meet the ultimatum, you married her anyway. 

She didn't change. She's still the same person that you had a problem with before marriage. With all the same traits that annoyed you back then. Except now, after so many years, you've come to the end of your rope. 

It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about your personality or how you handle your marriage at this point. 

You also mentioned you've already been through divorce once before. 

If I were you, I would seek my own individual counseling (perhaps with the same therapist you saw during the engagement); my goal would be to find out why I am picking women that are clearly not a good match for me on some of my most important goals. 

Again - remind yourself that according to what you've written here, she has not changed at all. To expect her to change is insanity. Your only choice is to determine how you will move forward assuming nothing changes. That's all that you can do. You made a mistake marrying her thinking things would somehow be different. 

It doesn't tend to work that way. What you see is what you get. 

Good luck.


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> I grew up in a fairly strict household where there was order and expectations. I made good grades and went to a good college etc.


Whose order? Who decided?


----------



## turnera

kag123 said:


> You also mentioned you've already been through divorce once before.


Huh. I missed that. What happened to that marriage?


----------



## Darwin17

turnera said:


> Well, that's what I was trying to say. Women don't often go head to head with men, especially men who admit they are aggressive. The women simply stop participating. Find other ways to get what they need. Find ways to avoid what he's pushing - or avoid him altogether. Maybe she is ASKING for work on nights you are home and you'll never even know it. By the time I was 35, I'd been married almost 15 years, and I knew full well how to navigate around the things my H decided I should or shouldn't do while not listening to my viewpoint. I smiled, I gave him sex, I laughed, I acted like I was having a great life - and I went to a therapist and bawled my eyes out.
> 
> I'm not saying she's doing this. I'm saying it's possible she's doing this and you'll probably never know. Because you two don't have an equal partnership. And she will not include you into her thinking process ("I don't know" is the single most common response for such women) if it's not safe to do so or if she gets railroaded or if you interrupt her or talk over her or if you ask to see 14 resumes by Sunday. YOU will have become not safe.
> 
> I'm just asking you to consider the possibility.



It is something that I am working on in my side. I can be overbearing and hate being in this position I just do not see an alternative. She will not do it alone even though from what she tells me it is something she knows she needs to do.

I ask her if this is a forever job for you and she responds "no way"

I ask her if this job is something she considers beneath her "yes"

I ask if she is happy about the financial situation "no"

She understands that all of the answers there is only one solution but she does nothing to change it.

I loath the fact this Sunday I am going to check up on my wife to make sure she is doing what she told me she would do happened.

She is an adult and I am an adult and we are married. That means that we are a team and as a team you have to work together for the common good of each other.

If she would apply for jobs without me saying anything......I would not say anything.


----------



## Darwin17

turnera said:


> You said yourself that SHE didn't have a problem with her narcolepsy. SHE had no REASON to see a doctor because it didn't bother her. Sure, if she'd fallen asleep at work and gotten reprimanded, it might matter to her more.
> 
> It bothered YOU because she wasn't interacting with you when she slept. So you wanted her to fix it so she would be present for YOU.
> 
> Again, another thing YOU forced her to deal with for YOUR benefit.


Yep only a benefit to me.......


----------



## Darwin17

turnera said:


> Whose order? Who decided?


Parents


----------



## Darwin17

turnera said:


> Huh. I missed that. What happened to that marriage?


Ended up in divorce

We were very young and neither of us were ready for it is what happened


----------



## Darwin17

kag123 said:


> I've read this whole thread. Only one other poster pointed out what, to me, is the absolute crux of your problems:
> 
> You compromised on a boundary you set.
> 
> You knew this was important to you before marriage. Enough so that you sought counseling and gave an ultimatum to enforce it during the engagement.
> 
> Then, somehow even though she did not meet the ultimatum, you married her anyway.
> 
> She didn't change. She's still the same person that you had a problem with before marriage. With all the same traits that annoyed you back then. Except now, after so many years, you've come to the end of your rope.
> 
> It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about your personality or how you handle your marriage at this point.
> 
> You also mentioned you've already been through divorce once before.
> 
> If I were you, I would seek my own individual counseling (perhaps with the same therapist you saw during the engagement); my goal would be to find out why I am picking women that are clearly not a good match for me on some of my most important goals.
> 
> Again - remind yourself that according to what you've written here, she has not changed at all. To expect her to change is insanity. Your only choice is to determine how you will move forward assuming nothing changes. That's all that you can do. You made a mistake marrying her thinking things would somehow be different.
> 
> It doesn't tend to work that way. What you see is what you get.
> 
> Good luck.


You are correct but sometimes life makes you go somewhere else and in this case it did. I will be working with her on this issue till it gets done.


----------



## turnera

You still aren't listening. IT'S YOUR GOAL. It's obviously not hers or you wouldn't have had to threaten her before you got married! That's like trying to make a slob keep a clean house - they don't see the dirt! They CAN'T clean it because it isn't in their nature!

Until you stop pushing her to be something she's not, until you try a different approach, one that motivates her (and hopefully not out of fear, like of her own _husband_ cutting her off of insurance, jeezus), you will NEVER get what you want.

You want more money? TELL her that you have defined your *boundary*, and it is two people earning enough money to have X% left over after all bills are paid, every month. Then you tell her that your *consequence* that you will enact if that boundary isn't met is to (1) stop putting your earnings into a central pot for both of you to spend, (2) pay only the essential bills that YOU require to survive, (3) stop giving her money to pay her school loan, and (4) put the rest of your money into your OWN 401k/whatever. She's free to default on her loans. She's free to never buy another dress in her life. She's free to eat only those groceries that YOU bring home. Because if she won't sit down and come up with a plan wherein both of you contribute toward a shared goal, you have no choice but to protect yourself with your consequence so that YOU can achieve the house you want, the trip you want, etc. It's 100% her choice which path she wants to take, and either way YOU will be saving your money like you want. It just won't be something she can share in.


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> Ended up in divorce
> 
> We were very young and neither of us were ready for it is what happened


Not what I meant, and you know it. What about you made her unhappy?


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> Parents


Not what I meant, and you know it. Who was the decider of the rules? You had to learn this from somebody.


----------



## Darwin17

The divorce happened as a result of two 19 year old kids getting married way too early. Both of us were unhappy and it ended and it sucked. 

Parents....both of them made the rules and backed each other up. I had no chance by the time I was around as they were well versed in parenthood having over a dozen foster kids before they had kids. My mother was the primary person as she was a stay at home mom but it was both of them working as a team. There was no "go ask your father" or anything like that.


----------



## kag123

Darwin17 said:


> You are correct but sometimes life makes you go somewhere else and in this case it did. I will be working with her on this issue till it gets done.


But, here's the thing:

Life doesn't ever really MAKE you "go" anywhere. 

We all have choices and we make a thousand tiny decisions every day that shape where we end up. 

You made a decision a long time ago that you were going to marry her anyway. Knowing this was an issue. 

Perhaps that wasn't a good idea? 

To be clear: no judgment towards you for what you did. I know exactly what it's like to love someone enough to want to overlook the flaws. BTDT. 

If divorce is not a road you want to take, I would recommend revisiting the counselor that you saw together many years ago. You need a neutral party to help you both navigate this at this point.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Darwin17 said:


> You are correct but sometimes life makes you go somewhere else and in this case it did. I will be working with her on this issue till it gets done.


Life gives you choices and then you make the decision. Life gave you a warning, you chose to soften your boundary and ignore your gut. 

I just realized, you are probavly a white knight who finally woke up.


----------



## Cletus

I am always amazed at how much better some people are than me.

When I hit a wall with someone this mind-numbingly defensive, sure of the correctness of his actions, who cannot take even a grain of criticism, and who is only seeking validation to continue that which has failed utterly in the past, I bail pretty fast. You folks have the patience of a Job.


----------



## Blondilocks

Darwin17 said:


> Yep only a benefit to me.......


And every driver on the road! Thank you for that.


----------



## Darwin17

Blondilocks said:


> And every driver on the road! Thank you for that.


That is not a joke. She would pull over all the time to pass out.


----------



## Blondilocks

Darwin17 said:


> That is not a joke. She would pull over all the time to pass out.


Wow, she had the presence of mind to pull over? My aunt had narcolepsy and would fall asleep mid word.

I think you are within your rights to expect your wife to step up to the plate as this was discussed before marriage. However, your marriage is dysfunctional in that you are forced into the role of 'daddy' and wife gladly accepts being the child.

Try marriage counseling, again. You may have to decide to accept your wife as is or get a divorce. You can always put a stop to the divorce if the wife decides to grow up. Do you really want to be checking up on your wife every Sunday night for the rest of your life? That is no way to live. Good luck to you.


----------



## Row Jimmy

Don't you see that she is showing you EXACTLY what she is and what she wants by what she does. 

It's very clear that your goals don't match hers. She has you to pay the bills and she likes it that way. 

You messed up by breaking your own boundary and marrying her anyways when she showed you what she was before you married. 

Your answer at this point is to either accept her how she is or to divorce her and find someone driven financially like yourself because she has no desire to do what you want or she would already be doing it. It is really that simple. 

You married a woman who expects her man to take care of her financially. You seem to enjoy the part where she takes care of you. That's the payoff. Every relationship has give and take... and she is doing some giving. 

Is it worth it??? Well only you can decide that one. 

Good luck.


----------



## Blondilocks

turnera said:


> My H is controlling. He believes that his - and only his - opinions are the right ones. That he has to make the decisions because, well, I'm a girl and can't possibly know what I want or what's right. We have a 4500-sq-ft house on the richest street in the neighborhood. When we're both working (we both got laid off this year), we earn more than $160,000/year.
> 
> *And what do I dream of? A one-bedroom apartment for the rest of my life. Away from him. (on the ocean; that's my one splurge)*
> 
> So yeah, his dreams? Not so much mine. And he has no idea. Because he never bothers to ASK me what my dreams are.


Aww, Turnera, this is just so sad. Your posts come across as strong and informed. It is so hard to envision you putting up with that putz for so long. I sincerely hope you find some peace and happiness going forward. It is my understanding that you intend to stay with your husband, is this correct?


----------



## luvinhim

_*Yeah, that discussion where you told her she WOULD be giving you good, regular sex or you would be divorcing her. I remember you talking about it.

Great loving going on there*_

I have seen this advise given in the Marriage and Sex forum. Sit the spouse down. Tell then ther is not enough sex. If things do not turn around divorce is an option. What is wrong with Darwin telling that to his wife.?????????


----------



## TeddieG

Satya said:


> OP, I think I understand where you're coming from. My ex H did exactly the same thing you did, once. He asked for a status report of my job search every day. I was well educated but in a different country so my job history wasn't very recognized. Getting work was tough and I went through several pretty [email protected] jobs. In the end, I got a decent job of my own accord after he told me that he couldn't stay in the relationship until I got a job. He'd stopped babysitting me, he just said basically, "job to help pay our bills or gtfo." He wasn't wrong.
> 
> But, the methods of motivation he thought were good for me, only led me to resent him and want to do the opposite. When he spoke a language I understood, and stopped forcing my decisions, I took control of my own fate. Once he let me be an adult, set his boundary with me, and left ME to make the decision, I made it and took responsibility for my choice to find work. Although we didn't last as a couple, it was a learning experience for us both.
> 
> Can you see the difference in making her do things vs telling her your boundary, and leaving her to make her own choice?


Somebody may have already responded in the way I'm about to, but I haven't had a chance to catch up on the threads since I read this morning. But as I've had a chance to think about it, I think Darwin17 keeps using term that he "forced" her to do something. My question is, maybe if that's a poor choice of words and he insisted or demanded that she do something and she acquiesced, albeit temporarily maybe (except for the sex part), and she resists otherwise. From where I sit, it seems to me she doesn't have experience with boundaries. If you were MY h, Darwin, I'd say, look, I'll be looking for positions and making an effort to get a job, but in the meantime, you need to show me the finances, and you if you want me to do something in relation to job hunting, you ASK me, rather than FORCE me. 

This is a sore spot for me and I have resisted weighing in, because my husband was happy, every time we moved every two years, for me, with a Master's degree, to wait tables or sweep hair and fold towels in a hair salon, but when got out of contracting and didn't want to move and I got a university job, he found himself a ***** at the auto parts shop where the two of them made deliveries. There's not a damn thing wrong with the fact that he took that job to keep busy and make a few bucks and make some friends (and boy did he) and I was half-way into a PhD and working at a university. I didn't look down on him.  But he KNEW when he met me and he knew when we dated that my goal was to finish that PhD and assist with the possibility of a comfortable future for us. The problem was that I made as much money as, or more than, he did. But as long as I was waiting tables or sweeping hair in a beauty salon, he whined that there was never enough money (although he turned out to be cheap and a tight wad at various times in our life). Whatever. 

YOU told her not to worry about, and married her anyway. She's taking you at your word. 

So yeah, this is a sore spot. H is marrying a woman on food stamps, getting help from the state for child care, won't work more than 30 hours a week so she doesn't lose her benefits, and wants his federal Tricare insurance and his retirement check. I hope to hell he's happy, not.


----------



## Darwin17

luvinhim said:


> _*Yeah, that discussion where you told her she WOULD be giving you good, regular sex or you would be divorcing her. I remember you talking about it.
> 
> Great loving going on there*_
> 
> I have seen this advise given in the Marriage and Sex forum. Sit the spouse down. Tell then ther is not enough sex. If things do not turn around divorce is an option. What is wrong with Darwin telling that to his wife.?????????


I never made an ultimatum or anything.....I got accused of heading into a sexless marriage and that is not the case.

Sexless marriage is a crime in my opinion and shows one spouse could care less about another. It is a pulse on the relationship and if it goes away and one spouse as a problem with it then it will lead to problems.

The reason I am not worried is that we talked about it and how important this is for me and how it makes me feel etc. I am sure it will need to be revisited every so often but in this department we are good to go.

I think in 99% of cases spouses need to communicate and it will resolve anything. Problem is this issues the 1% so I am at a loss.

For some reason because I just won't leave this alone and let her do whatever she want's this community has gone after me.


----------



## Darwin17

TeddieG said:


> Somebody may have already responded in the way I'm about to, but I haven't had a chance to catch up on the threads since I read this morning. But as I've had a chance to think about it, I think Darwin17 keeps using term that he "forced" her to do something. My question is, maybe if that's a poor choice of words and he insisted or demanded that she do something and she acquiesced, albeit temporarily maybe (except for the sex part), and she resists otherwise. From where I sit, it seems to me she doesn't have experience with boundaries. If you were MY h, Darwin, I'd say, look, I'll be looking for positions and making an effort to get a job, but in the meantime, you need to show me the finances, and you if you want me to do something in relation to job hunting, you ASK me, rather than FORCE me.
> 
> This is a sore spot for me and I have resisted weighing in, because my husband was happy, every time we moved every two years, for me, with a Master's degree, to wait tables or sweep hair and fold towels in a hair salon, but when got out of contracting and didn't want to move and I got a university job, he found himself a ***** at the auto parts shop where the two of them made deliveries. There's not a damn thing wrong with the fact that he took that job to keep busy and make a few bucks and make some friends (and boy did he) and I was half-way into a PhD and working at a university. I didn't look down on him. But he KNEW when he met me and he knew when we dated that my goal was to finish that PhD and assist with the possibility of a comfortable future for us. The problem was that I made as much money as, or more than, he did. But as long as I was waiting tables or sweeping hair in a beauty salon, he whined that there was never enough money (although he turned out to be cheap and a tight wad at various times in our life). Whatever.
> 
> YOU told her not to worry about, and married her anyway. She's taking you at your word.
> 
> So yeah, this is a sore spot. H is marrying a woman on food stamps, getting help from the state for child care, won't work more than 30 hours a week so she doesn't lose her benefits, and wants his federal Tricare insurance and his retirement check. I hope to hell he's happy, not.


The problem is that I have pleaded, asked, ignored etc the issue. The only thing that works is I have to set a expectation of action and then revisit results once a week like I am her boss or dad. 

We have talked about this to the point it just isn't worth revisiting and I never get real answers to what the issue is.

I help with showing her where to go and what to do and looked at places on her to find help.

Again the only thing that works is for me to ride her on this and it sucks.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

luvinhim said:


> What is wrong with Darwin telling that to his wife.?????????


Hunh?
Did you miss the posts where multiple people said to divorce, if she doesn't fit or do what he expects?


----------



## Erudite

Darwin17 said:


> I never made an ultimatum or anything.....I got accused of heading into a sexless marriage and that is not the case.
> 
> Sexless marriage is a crime in my opinion and shows one spouse could care less about another. It is a pulse on the relationship and if it goes away and one spouse as a problem with it then it will lead to problems.
> 
> The reason I am not worried is that we talked about it and how important this is for me and how it makes me feel etc. I am sure it will need to be revisited every so often but in this department we are good to go.
> 
> I think in 99% of cases spouses need to communicate and it will resolve anything. Problem is this issues the 1% so I am at a loss.
> 
> For some reason because I just won't leave this alone and let her do whatever she want's this community has gone after me.


Please. I have to say I agree with Cletus. I hate reading posts where the wronged spouse is a paragon of virtue (or finances or what have you). You have not talked in affectionate terms of your wife. She meets certain expectations (sex for example) or she doesn't meet expectations (money). You are forced to tolerate her choices in life and you hate it. She has ADD and Narcolepsy? Or maybe she suffers from situational depression which can mimic the symptoms of both? She wouldn't work more than thirty hours a week because she's afraid to lose benefits? Could it be possibly that the types of jobs that she would get as an entry level worker in her chosen field would not be that much more than what she could make on aide? With more hours and more stress? (and lets not even talk about how companies will only let you work up to thirty hours to avoid paying benefits.) I am going to let you in on a secret here, read it carefully. You don't get to let her do "whatever she wants". She is going to do whatever she wants, whenever she wants, no matter what. If you "ride" her or get on her case you may be able to pull her guilt strings enough so that she "falls in line". Perhaps, if her feelings are secondary to results you might ride her into a large inferiority complex and she won't be able to make decisions without your say so... If she is clinging so hard to this you might want to ask yourself why. Could it be that this is her way of retaining her independence? It's hers. It might not amount to much (monetarily) without you, but she will go on without you if you decide to divorce. And when you divorce and you look at her life and you are thinking she's regretting her decision she will be thanking her lucky stars to be away from you. It sounds to me that right now she is basically just yessing you to death just to shut you up anyway. I am not convinced that if she met one of your goals that you wouldn't move the goal posts later anyway...


----------



## turnera

luvinhim said:


> _*Yeah, that discussion where you told her she WOULD be giving you good, regular sex or you would be divorcing her. I remember you talking about it.
> 
> Great loving going on there*_
> 
> I have seen this advise given in the Marriage and Sex forum. Sit the spouse down. Tell then ther is not enough sex. If things do not turn around divorce is an option. What is wrong with Darwin telling that to his wife.?????????


There is nothing wrong with him saying "I won't stay married to a woman who doesn't enjoy sex with me and put it as a priority." The problem is when a man says "If you don't give me sex, I'm walking." 

And given the examples he's given of how he deals with situations, it's a pretty fair bet that he gave her the latter speech, not the former. The former is explaining his boundaries and what he will do after SHE decides what SHE wants to do. The latter is basically blackmailing. 

Which he has already shown us he is capable and willing to do by blackmailing her to see the doctor or lose insurance.

There are a dozen other ways he could have gotten her to see a doctor without blackmailing her.

How on earth is she supposed to see him as a loving, supportive husband when he resorts to such things?

I'm telling you, she does NOT reciprocate his belief that this marriage is wonderful. She's not brain-dead. She has simply chosen to shut off her feelings from him and deal the best she can.


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> Sexless marriage is a crime in my opinion and shows one spouse could care less about another.


Which just shows how ignorant you are when it comes to women. And which is borne out by your further treatment of her. 

Women have to either (1) be crazy about their man and enticed by him and want to jump his bones all the time or (2) be warned that if they don't put out they lose the man. 

Women have been making the second choice for tens of thousands of years. To be protected. Having never been a woman, you wouldn't understand. But it's something that women know, are raised to know, and deal with our whole lives. Put out or get dumped.

Ever watch When Harry Met Sally?

The more you write, the more convinced I am that you have NO CLUE who your wife really is.


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> The problem is that I have pleaded, asked, ignored etc the issue. The only thing that works is I have to set a expectation of action and then revisit results once a week like I am her boss or dad.
> 
> We have talked about this to the point it just isn't worth revisiting and I never get real answers to what the issue is.
> 
> I help with showing her where to go and what to do and looked at places on her to find help.
> 
> Again the only thing that works is for me to ride her on this and it sucks.


So you're a smart man. What does this tell you?

It tells ME that she is a smart semi-confident woman who knows what she wants and is not willing to compromise with you to give up what she loves doing just to keep you happy. She just lacks the skills to SAY that to you. Fairly common.

So she blocks you. She knows what you want, she doesn't want it, so she ignores or dodges your ultimatums - quite successfully so far - and just figures she'll deal with your smugness and self-centeredness as she can. Think of the man who has no intention of doing all the chores his wife nags him to do, and basically just tunes out all her nagging. You have become the nagging wife.


----------



## turnera

Erudite said:


> And when you divorce and you look at her life and you are thinking she's regretting her decision she will be thanking her lucky stars to be away from you. It sounds to me that right now she is basically just yessing you to death just to shut you up anyway.


Pretty much sums it up.


----------



## frusdil

Darwin17 said:


> Again the only thing that works is for me to ride her on this and it sucks.


And how well is that working for you OP? Lol.

You can't make your wife change, she is who she is - and you married her this way. A couple of other posters summed it up perfectly...your financial goals don't match, so you have two options.

1. Accept that fact and let it go

or

2. Divorce

That basically sums it up.


----------



## turnera

frusdil said:


> And how well is that working for you OP? Lol.
> 
> You can't make your wife change, she is who she is - and you married her this way. A couple of other posters summed it up perfectly...your financial goals don't match, so you have two options.
> 
> 1. Accept that fact and let it go
> 
> or
> 
> 2. Divorce
> 
> That basically sums it up.


Or - gasp! - acknowledge that she has just as much right to the marriage SHE wants, goals and all, as YOU do.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

turnera said:


> Or - gasp! - acknowledge that she has just as much right to the marriage SHE wants, goals and all, as YOU do.


Yes, but it still doesn't alter the two choices.


----------



## Erudite

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yes, but it still doesn't alter the two choices.


Of course it does! Accepting that they approach finances differently means adjusting expectations not "letting it go". If you ask most anyone if they want a bigger car or a roomier house or a healthy retirement account, most people will say yes.. After all it's SO logical towant these things. The truth is though that the only thing that is necessary is a good retirement plan (alot easier to attain, btw, without excessive homes, cars, and trips. Maybe if he approached it from the angle of I want to take care of you till we are old and gray and it would be easier to do that if we had more retirement funds. Anything would be better than telling her to be logical and making her feel inferior. Adjusting ones expectations and compromising is not "letting it go"..geez Louise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

intheory said:


> Ah, but you seem to be missing the fact that the stubbornness magically resolved when Mrs. Darwin saw that she might be losing her medical benefits.
> 
> I see selective, self-serving stubbornness here. As in, "if you ask of me something that I don't wanna do, I ain't gonna do it; no matter how important it is to you".
> 
> No, I'm not saying Darwin is some kind of angel. But I don't think he's an ogre either. He sounds frustrated and exhausted.


I never said he's an ogre. I said he's going about this all the wrong way. And her stubbornness is proof of that. He treats her like a child. But she's an adult. A child would just do whatever she's told. But since she's an adult, she just ignores him when he tells her what the marriage is going to look like. Until she's THREATENED. And then, of course, she follows his plan - grudgingly. But I'm sure it doesn't endear him in her heart. This may work in the short term, but in the long term? She'll probably decide being married to him isn't worth it, even if she _does _love him.


----------



## Starstarfish

If a woman engaged in the same behavior we have a term for it ... "nagging." 

And many threads have said, if nagging doesn't work one should accept whatever it is isn't as important to the partner, and decide on action accordingly.


----------



## Blondilocks

Let's get real. His threatening to cut off her health insurance was the lamest threat ever. His goal is to improve their monetary situation and one serious illness could bankrupt them. I don't think he's so stupid that he didn't realize that he would be on the hook for her medical bills. The ploy worked, though, as it got her the medical attention she needed. Why she didn't realize this leaves me scratching my head.


----------



## turnera

Blondilocks said:


> Let's get real. His threatening to cut off her health insurance was the lamest threat ever. His goal is to improve their monetary situation and one serious illness could bankrupt them. I don't think he's so stupid that he didn't realize that he would be on the hook for her medical bills. The ploy worked, though, as it got her the medical attention she needed. Why she didn't realize this leaves me scratching my head.


More importantly, why doesn't she communicate with him about such things other than to say "I don't know"? Most typically, it's because the woman either has given up expecting an equal relationship so she refuses to get into real conversations with him or else, well, she just doesn't have the intelligence to figure such things out. Which is a possibility. I've certainly seen my share of dumb people on this forum, who just can't put 2 and 2 together. Or else she isn't really as happy as he thinks she is (pretty common) and she doesn't go along with ANYTHING he wants, just to spite him. On the health issue, she could have toxic shame or something else that keeps her from addressing it.

Whatever the case, he's about to blow a gasket over it, because what he's doing doesn't work because he isn't treating her as an equal and, as we all know, you can't MAKE another person do anything they don't want. The best solution is to get her to WANT to do what he wants...or else for HIM to meet her on another path mutually beneficial.

Thoughts, Darwin?


----------



## turnera

intheory said:


> Disastrous attitude, particularly in marriage.


The single most important question to ask is WHY she has that attitude and is he contributing to it. Because if he is, if the attitude's there because of him, HE can change it.


----------



## Starstarfish

Again, only people who haven't worked retail would label it "bare minimum" and "lazy" work. Pay rate is not indeed a direct corresponding factor to effort required.


----------



## Pluto2

intheory said:


> We don't know about Darwin's wife. He's here, she isn't.


That's it exactly. All we know is one side, and the person who isn't here is easily attacked.


----------



## Darwin17

intheory said:


> intheory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, but you seem to be missing the fact that the stubbornness magically resolved when Mrs. Darwin saw that she might be losing her medical benefits.
> 
> I see selective, self-serving stubbornness here. As in, "if you ask of me something that I don't wanna do, I ain't gonna do it; no matter how important it is to you".
> 
> But, "if I see my interests being threatened, I will take action immediately; 'cause that's what's important, I care about what matters to me; and me alone. I'm actually quite capable of taking care of things; if there's something in it for me. Doing something for you (my husband) . . . meh!"
> 
> Disastrous attitude, particularly in marriage.
> 
> No, I'm not saying Darwin is some kind of angel. But I don't think he's an ogre either. He sounds frustrated and exhausted.
> 
> 
> 
> This
Click to expand...


----------



## Cletus

Do we value low-skilled work?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/01/opinion/do-we-value-low-skilled-work.html?src=me&_r=0


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Erudite said:


> Of course it does! Accepting that they approach finances differently means adjusting expectations not "letting it go". If you ask most anyone if they want a bigger car or a roomier house or a healthy retirement account, most people will say yes.. After all it's SO logical towant these things. The truth is though that the only thing that is necessary is a good retirement plan (alot easier to attain, btw, without excessive homes, cars, and trips. Maybe if he approached it from the angle of I want to take care of you till we are old and gray and it would be easier to do that if we had more retirement funds. Anything would be better than telling her to be logical and making her feel inferior. Adjusting ones expectations and compromising is not "letting it go"..geez Louise.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you really want to sit here and cherry pick certain things go ahead. He has to let his anger go and his unreal expectations of a wife *HE KNEW* was this way, before they were even married. He went to premarital counseling, good move, then promptly went backwards and here we are bickering. He is so obstinate, he has resorted to feminism and sarcasm insults to show he isn't going to budge. His wife is _lazy_ and he has high expectations.

So, no, it doesn't alter or add a third choice. Yes, you and I disagree. I believe the small post Turnera wrote, before you added all of the suggestions, is tied into one or two. He isn't moving or altering his expectations so, he needs to let it go to stay married. Or he can move on. Even if he changes his thinking, he still has to let certain things go period. Or divorce and pay her anyway.

LOL.


----------



## Erudite

Because you can plainly see that she is not lazy. She keeps the house. She has sex frequently. She works. What exactly is so bad about that? Does she complain about her job every and express dissatisfaction or or is she only dissatisfied when her husband makes unfavorable comparisons? Does she lose jobs due to poor performance? The issue as Darwin puts it is that she has a costly degree that she is not using. Getting a degree at all seems to indicate she is not lazy. Oh and health issues are intensely personal. Lots of people don't go because they fear the worst or they distrust doctors and hospitals or they have a phobia. How awful to have issues and then have the option taken away by your own spouse! I am not convinced of add or narcolepsy but let's assume she does have add. It's a condition that can only be managed. Not fixed. Perhaps working retail provides the constant stimulation that a reg 9-5 doesn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Erudite said:


> Because you can plainly see that she is not lazy. She keeps the house. She has sex frequently. She works. What exactly is so bad about that? Does she complain about her job every and express dissatisfaction or or is she only dissatisfied when her husband makes unfavorable comparisons? Does she lose jobs due to poor performance? The issue as Darwin puts it is that she has a costly degree that she is not using. Getting a degree at all seems to indicate she is not lazy. Oh and health issues are intensely personal. Lots of people don't go because they fear the worst or they distrust doctors and hospitals or they have a phobia. How awful to have issues and then have the option taken away by your own spouse! I am not convinced of add or narcolepsy but let's assume she does have add. It's a condition that can only be managed. Not fixed. Perhaps working retail provides the constant stimulation that a reg 9-5 doesn't.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*shrugs*

Apparently, you are misunderstanding my posts. I said all of this, minus the ADD issues, earlier in the thread.


----------



## Darwin17

Blondilocks said:


> Let's get real. His threatening to cut off her health insurance was the lamest threat ever. His goal is to improve their monetary situation and one serious illness could bankrupt them. I don't think he's so stupid that he didn't realize that he would be on the hook for her medical bills. The ploy worked, though, as it got her the medical attention she needed. Why she didn't realize this leaves me scratching my head.


You have got to be kidding me. If you had a spouse that had some sore of undiagnosed medical issue that was impairing their own safety, the safety of others, making life challenging, damaging the relationship, etc.

After several years of no action I made action happen. 

Results stand for themselves in this case and she has a new lease on life and is not trapped by Narcolepsy. 

The only thing that got her to go was the real threat of taking away her insurance. It was extreme yes and it is something I didn't want to do but in the end it was a huge benefit.

The alternative was to have a spouse that was pulling over all the time to pass out on the road. Would pass out every time she sat down. Would get home from work and sleep all day and night. It turned into a relationship where it didn't matter when she got home because I was alone anyways because she was passed out. If I tried to wake her for dinner/going out/getting some covers for bed/etc. she would rage on me yelling and getting physical (a symptom of narcolepsy).

Once she started taking medication it was crazy how much I had to adjust to having an awake spouse. Conversations over the news and politics, going out with friends and staying awake, finishing movies and shows, not passing out while driving for 5 min. She was having conversations with me while I was cooking. It was strange at first as I was so used to being quite alone with someone in the apartment.

She has never thanked me for forcing this but she is "normal" now vs. not being there

Lame threat....not really as it was a real threat and it got her to move and get something life changing done.

You are telling me you would would have done something different? I would really like to know.


----------



## Pluto2

Darwin17 said:


> You have got to be kidding me. If you had a spouse that had some sore of undiagnosed medical issue that was impairing their own safety, the safety of others, making life challenging, damaging the relationship, etc.
> 
> After several years of no action I made action happen.
> 
> Results stand for themselves in this case and she has a new lease on life and is not trapped by Narcolepsy.
> 
> The only thing that got her to go was the real threat of taking away her insurance. It was extreme yes and it is something I didn't want to do but in the end it was a huge benefit.
> 
> The alternative was to have a spouse that was pulling over all the time to pass out on the road. Would pass out every time she sat down. Would get home from work and sleep all day and night. It turned into a relationship where it didn't matter when she got home because I was alone anyways because she was passed out. If I tried to wake her for dinner/going out/getting some covers for bed/etc. she would rage on me yelling and getting physical (a symptom of narcolepsy).
> 
> Once she started taking medication it was crazy how much I had to adjust to having an awake spouse. Conversations over the news and politics, going out with friends and staying awake, finishing movies and shows, not passing out while driving for 5 min. She was having conversations with me while I was cooking. It was strange at first as I was so used to being quite alone with someone in the apartment.
> 
> *She has never thanked me for forcing this* but she is "normal" now vs. not being there
> 
> Lame threat....not really as it was a real threat and it got her to move and get something life changing done.
> 
> You are telling me you would would have done something different? I would really like to know.


----------



## Darwin17

Again I don't care if she thanked me for forcing the issue.

This is not unlike a child who will not do something like eating vegetables. You make them do it as it is good for you.

You are caught up in the fact I forced an issue vs just letting it go.....

Marriage is a team sport that two people join together for the common good of a relationship. As a good spouse you want the best for each other and yourself at the same time.

If your spouse has a major issue such as a drug problem you would help them or just let them keep on harming themselves and the marriage? I don't think so.....you take action and try to help fix the problem.

Look at how she was acting before I forced the issue. That was not a spouse and might as well been on something. I took action and forced the issue and now she is fine.

You people are fixated on me forcing the issue

I don't see an alternative as we have a person who is acting like a child refusing to eat vegetables. I hate that I am comparing my wife to a child but that is the best I can come up with in the matter.


----------



## jb02157

CuddleBug said:


> You can't expect her to do a job she doesn't like so you have more money, right?


I absolutely hate what I do and all the constant pressure that it puts on me. It has seriously negatively affected my health, yet I'm expected to do this job so I can pay all the bills. If my wife would help out instead of being so selfish, may I could leave my current job and fix my helath issues.


----------



## Darwin17

jb02157 said:


> I absolutely hate what I do and all the constant pressure that it puts on me. It has seriously negatively affected my health, yet I'm expected to do this job so I can pay all the bills. If my wife would help out instead of being so selfish, may I could leave my current job and fix my helath issues.


I completely understand where you are coming from. For some reason I have done work I absolutely despise in order to put food on the table and pay the bills etc.

It is completely ok for my spouse not to help out as she apparently enjoys her job so I just need to suck it up.

That will be the opinion in general here


----------



## turnera

intheory said:


> Okay. But what if the attitude isn't there because of him? What if she does have an entitled attitude? What if she is determined to do only the bare minimum, because she is lazy?


Then he made a bad decision marrying her and they are incompatible.

You can't change lazy. 

Despite him trying to do it consistently day in and day out.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Darwin17;13777482
It is completely ok for my spouse not to help out as she apparently enjoys her job so I just need to suck it up.[/quote said:


> I like how you write your anger out and then assign it to other posters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That will be the opinion in general here
> 
> 
> 
> No, the general opinion is you can't make an adult do something they don't want to do. It's funny because you keep holding this narcolepsy decision up as a beacon of light.
> 
> "See, I made her go to the doctor."
> Yet, for 7 years, you haven't MADE HER change jobs.
> 
> 
> SO, ultimately, she is choosing what she deems important.
Click to expand...


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> I completely understand where you are coming from. For some reason I have done work I absolutely despise in order to put food on the table and pay the bills etc.
> 
> It is completely ok for my spouse not to help out as she apparently enjoys her job so I just need to suck it up.
> 
> That will be the opinion in general here


Again, for the umpteenth time, it's not that she's not earning enough to please you. It's the WAY you are trying to force the issue.

Why are you so unwilling to discuss the possibility of you changing your approach?


----------



## Erudite

phillybeffandswiss said:


> *shrugs*
> 
> Apparently, you are misunderstanding my posts. I said all of this, minus the ADD issues, earlier in the thread.


No not misunderstanding you. Was replying to someone else and then you posted. Sorry.


----------



## Cletus

Darwin17 said:


> Again I don't care if she thanked me for forcing the issue.
> 
> This is not unlike a child who will not do something like eating vegetables. You make them do it as it is good for you.


Do you think your wife understands just how superior to her you consider yourself? How your relationship is more one of caretaker/dependent than of equals?

I bet she does. 

You just don't respect your wife, even a little. That's a piss-poor recipe for a healthy marriage.


----------



## Erudite

turnera said:


> Again, for the umpteenth time, it's not that she's not earning enough to please you. It's the WAY you are trying to force the issue.
> 
> Why are you so unwilling to discuss the possibility of you changing your approach?


He said it right there. "I do a job I hate for the betterment of the family but she won't do the same." He expects her to be miserable in her job because he thinks she expects him to be miserable in his just to pay the bills so she can slough off. _He_ is the one that is in a job he hates (or has been in the past) and he is _JEALOUS_ that she is not doing the same to attain goals that "everyone" is supposed to have. If he is so miserable in his job why doesn't HE find a job he likes better! We all suck it up to a certain extent. He may find that making less (and having less) is better for his mental health rather than trying to force his wife to "eat her vegetables."


----------



## Blondilocks

Good grief! Calm down. I'm not dissing you for getting your wife to go to the doctor. But, I seriously doubt that you would have let her go without insurance because that is cutting off your nose to spite your face. And, if you would have, then you need some serious instruction in finances. Because that course of action is just plain STUPID!


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## Darwin17

I don't put things like that lightly and she knows it.

I don't make idle threats as that is not fair on her or me. I would have cut it off.


----------



## Darwin17

Erudite said:


> He said it right there. "I do a job I hate for the betterment of the family but she won't do the same." He expects her to be miserable in her job because he thinks she expects him to be miserable in his just to pay the bills so she can slough off. _He_ is the one that is in a job he hates (or has been in the past) and he is _JEALOUS_ that she is not doing the same to attain goals that "everyone" is supposed to have. If he is so miserable in his job why doesn't HE find a job he likes better! We all suck it up to a certain extent. He may find that making less (and having less) is better for his mental health rather than trying to force his wife to "eat her vegetables."


Her lack of action has put our future into jeopardy such as me dipping into savings to pay for everything when I got fired years ago.

Another time is dipping into 401k as I was ramping up in a sales position and bill need to get paid.

We would be living on the streets if I didn't do those things. If she would have had a job that gave her the ability to actually contribute we would have savings and my 401k would be larger.

So is it fair we burn our retirement and savings due to the fact she won't even try to find something else?


----------



## Darwin17

Erudite said:


> He said it right there. "I do a job I hate for the betterment of the family but she won't do the same." He expects her to be miserable in her job because he thinks she expects him to be miserable in his just to pay the bills so she can slough off. _He_ is the one that is in a job he hates (or has been in the past) and he is _JEALOUS_ that she is not doing the same to attain goals that "everyone" is supposed to have. If he is so miserable in his job why doesn't HE find a job he likes better! We all suck it up to a certain extent. He may find that making less (and having less) is better for his mental health rather than trying to force his wife to "eat her vegetables."


Not jealous at all. I do have expectations of her acting on the greater good of us and our future. She is not doing that at all and it is damaging for our our financial future. If she got an actual adult job with actual pay it could almost all go into savings. Saving are a good thing and if you disagree have fun in retirement.

I she would at least consistently put in effort I would not be *****ing at all. Problem is she doesn't try.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

intheory said:


> philly,
> 
> But remember she faced a consequence for not going to the doctor; losing her health benefits. So she took prompt action on that issue.


I know. She made an adult choice on this issue. Maybe she has a drug problem and said "new stuff to get high?"


She has faced consequences including boundaries and for 7 years has done nothing. You might not see them the same way I do. Just like I remember him complaining about this nor real job, but wanted her to be a secretary, making the same pay, with weekends off and having time to be with him. He called that "nice." You and others do not see that the same way I do.

You and some others see it differently and don't give it the weight I do. He is getting opposing views and none of us want an echo chamber.


----------



## Erudite

Darwin17 said:


> Her lack of action has put our future into jeopardy such as me dipping into savings to pay for everything when I got fired years ago.
> 
> Another time is dipping into 401k as I was ramping up in a sales position and bill need to get paid.
> 
> We would be living on the streets if I didn't do those things. If she would have had a job that gave her the ability to actually contribute we would have savings and my 401k would be larger.
> 
> So is it fair we burn our retirement and savings due to the fact she won't even try to find something else?


I'm sorry but it is called "ish happens" for a reason. It's not your wife's fault that YOU lost YOUR job. It's not her fault that sales don't pick up or stay steady on a schedule. That's the price you pay in jobs like that. That is the trade off! That's NOT her fault! That's the nature of that job So YOU chose a field of work that is _highly unstable_, sales, for a quick cash grab, and you are blaming her for her _steady_ employment that is always available? Unbelievable. 

Sounds to me like you are insecure in your ability to be the main provider in the household. You have been burned by past job experiences. That isn't her fault.


----------



## turnera

Darwin, maybe what this is really about is that she's happy being away from you working nights when, if she had a 9-5 job, she'd be with you all the time you're both not working. What do you think?

And what do you think about scheduling MC again?


----------



## Blondilocks

Darwin17 said:


> I don't put things like that lightly and she knows it.
> 
> I don't make idle threats as that is not fair on her or me. I would have cut it off.


If you would have taken the chance to jeopardize your future finances just to get your wife to do what you wanted, then you have no reason or right to be climbing up your wife's azz over her earnings. 

When you're looking at over $10,000 just for 1 night's stay in a hospital then you can appreciate that you really don't know what in the hell you're talking about when it comes to building wealth.

Also, you are now depicting some latent resentment and hostility toward your wife because she isn't kowtowing and bending to your will. This is nothing more than a power struggle for you, is it?


----------



## Darwin17

Alright people lets put this into some perspective as everyone here is missing the point

Spouse A: College Degree

Spouse B: College Degree

Married: A and B with the assumption of a 50/50 split in everything and no kids

Spouse A: Pays following bills Rent/Electricity/Cable/Internet/Insurance/Car insurance/college debt/Food/any time we go out/movies/everything

Spouse B: Pays for car and cell phone

Is it reasonable for Spouse A to expect Spouse B to do something to help out?

If it is completely unreasonable please let me know how as I just want to know


----------



## Erudite

Darwin17 said:


> Not jealous at all. I do have expectations of her acting on the greater good of us and our future. She is not doing that at all and it is damaging for our our financial future. If she got an actual adult job with actual pay it could almost all go into savings. Saving are a good thing and if you disagree have fun in retirement.
> 
> I she would at least consistently put in effort I would not be *****ing at all. Problem is she doesn't try.


Yeah, okay. So why can't all of her pay go into savings now? This truly is a power struggle for you. Oy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Darwin17

Blondilocks said:


> If you would have taken the chance to jeopardize your future finances just to get your wife to do what you wanted, then you have no reason or right to be climbing up your wife's azz over her earnings.
> 
> When you're looking at over $10,000 just for 1 night's stay in a hospital then you can appreciate that you really don't know what in the hell you're talking about when it comes to building wealth.
> 
> Also, you are now depicting some latent resentment and hostility toward your wife because she isn't kowtowing and bending to your will. This is nothing more than a power struggle for you, is it?


You are wrong in this case. She would have to go onto her own crappy insurance from her job and pay for it herself.


----------



## turnera

> Is it reasonable for Spouse A to expect Spouse B to do something to help out?
> 
> If it is completely unreasonable please let me know how as I just want to know


First, she IS helping out - with car payment and phone payment.

Second, as we keep telling you, it depends on what EACH of you stated you wanted out of a marriage. If she expected a marriage in which she, as a female, got to 'skate' a little while the man was the main provider, then it is unreasonable for you to expect 50/50 since that is not why she married you.

Again, it's communication. If the above is what she wanted, you need to find out. Instead of just pushing pushing pushing her into something she doesn't want. FIND OUT! And if she refuses to talk to you about it, or to go to MC with you, then you have ONE choice: accept who she is or leave her.

I mean, you CAN stay and keep pushing pushing pushing, but I promise you, ONE of you is going to break eventually and leave the marriage.

So you can either try to do this differently and fix your communication problem so that BOTH of you get what you want, or you can continue down this path of destruction you are on.

YOUR view of a marriage is 50/50. HER view of a marriage is that people just be happy and live life as it comes and...well, whatever it is that she believes, since she refuses to even TELL you what she believes.

And you might want to look a little more closely just why that is.


----------



## Darwin17

Erudite said:


> Yeah, okay. So why can't all of her pay go into savings now? This truly is a power struggle for you. Oy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It goes into her care and her cell phone....not much left over after that


----------



## TeddieG

Darwin17 said:


> Her lack of action has put our future into jeopardy such as me dipping into savings to pay for everything when I got fired years ago.
> 
> Another time is dipping into 401k as I was ramping up in a sales position and bill need to get paid.
> 
> We would be living on the streets if I didn't do those things. If she would have had a job that gave her the ability to actually contribute we would have savings and my 401k would be larger.
> 
> So is it fair we burn our retirement and savings due to the fact she won't even try to find something else?


So share this with her. Tell her you really want to put back some of that money so that both of you aren't still working when you're 70!


"YOUR view of a marriage is 50/50. HER view of a marriage is that people just be happy and live life as it comes and...well, whatever it is that she believes, since she refuses to even TELL you what she believes."

And if you told her you feel strongly about the 50/50 thing, you'd be telling her what YOU believe. 

I so wish my h had talked to me and told me what he wanted when he decided not to continue moving around for military contracting, and how he saw our lives unfolding, instead of feeling crummy that I made more than him and he ran off with another woman. 

I don't see you wanting to talk to her, to communicate with her, to reach her, about it; I see you wanting to tell her how it needs to be. You're wanting her to trust you, to take your word for it. You two seem to be doing fine on everything else. And I do agree with philly and one other poster that maybe she can manage the retail job AND have energy to keep the house nice and iron your shirts and have energy to be loving and affectionate with you (maybe her love language is service and LIKES ironing your shirts). Maybe she's smarter than a lot of us and knows that the world demands a hell of a lot of human beings, and that we have to parcel out energy to various demands in order to have a whole and complete life. I learned that the hard way. Part of what contributed to my h's discontent was that my job was toxic; all day long I did the job of the people higher up than me paid more than me, and when they left to go home and have dinner and a movie with their spouses, I had to put in more hours to get my own job done. The higher ups were friends of the President of our company and I couldn't afford to piss them off. I thought I brought energy and interest home but my Peter Pan husband was having his first of many health issues and it wasn't possible for him to be entirely and only and ever the absolute center of my world and my universe if I was holding down a job, much less the toxic one I had. 

I guess I am just saying maybe if you gave your wife more credit for being an intelligent and sentient human being and just had a talk with her about it, it would be more clear that you can ask her to do x or leave.


----------



## Darwin17

turnera said:


> First, she IS helping out - with car payment and phone payment.
> 
> Second, as we keep telling you, it depends on what EACH of you stated you wanted out of a marriage. If she expected a marriage in which she, as a female, got to 'skate' a little while the man was the main provider, then it is unreasonable for you to expect 50/50 since that is not why she married you.
> 
> Again, it's communication. If the above is what she wanted, you need to find out. Instead of just pushing pushing pushing her into something she doesn't want. FIND OUT! And if she refuses to talk to you about it, or to go to MC with you, then you have ONE choice: accept who she is or leave her.
> 
> I mean, you CAN stay and keep pushing pushing pushing, but I promise you, ONE of you is going to break eventually and leave the marriage.
> 
> So you can either try to do this differently and fix your communication problem so that BOTH of you get what you want, or you can continue down this path of destruction you are on.
> 
> YOUR view of a marriage is 50/50. HER view of a marriage is that people just be happy and live life as it comes and...well, whatever it is that she believes, since she refuses to even TELL you what she believes.
> 
> And you might want to look a little more closely just why that is.


I have tried so much to find out what is going on with her and if her opinion of my expectations do not match hers I have given up.

The funny thing is that that if we go into counseling over this the same thing will happen. The counselor will ask her why she won't get a job and will work with her for several sessions and then she will come home and not do anything about it.

She pays for her car and her cell phone and I don't consider that helping. I won't pay for it so if she doesn't the care will get repossessed and the cell will get cut off.

When she first graduated college I supported her for a bit and I think I started a bad habit and now am screwed.


----------



## Darwin17

TeddieG said:


> So share this with her. Tell her you really want to put back some of that money so that both of you aren't still working when you're 70!


I have over and over and over and over and over and over and over till I just quit trying


----------



## Cletus

Darwin17 said:


> Alright people lets put this into some perspective as everyone here is missing the point
> 
> Spouse A: College Degree
> 
> Spouse B: College Degree
> 
> Married: A and B with the assumption of a 50/50 split in everything and no kids


In my house, 

Spouse A: College Degree

Spouse B: College Degree

Married with no kids at home. However, spouse A's earning potential is 3.5x that of Spouse B, who decided to be a teacher instead of an engineer.

Is a 50/50 split reasonable or equitable? Should I send my wife back to school for a degree in medicine because she isn't pulling her weight? Complain that she isn't taking on a second job?


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> When she first graduated college I supported her for a bit and I think I started a bad habit and now am screwed.


Well, I already told you how to fix that. Several times. None of which you've acknowledged. Stop paying her student loan. Stop paying for anything other than utilities/house/food. Tell her she's welcome to pay for cable or internet or clothes or anything else.

And a GOOD counselor won't ask her why she won't get a new job; he will ask her how she feels about YOU and ask her what's going on. He won't be your supporter just to make sure you get what you want. He will help you BOTH get what you want.

Kinda what we've been trying to do...



> I have tried so much to find out what is going on with her and if her opinion of my expectations do not match hers I have given up.


And, as I have repeatedly suggested, if she is not sharing her opinion with you, it's because she doesn't feel SAFE sharing her opinion with you, and it behooves you to find out why that is.

If I were you, I'd take her to MC and once there, say that you need to understand why you and your wife can't communicate. THAT is what's really wrong.


----------



## Pluto2

OP, in all honesty. You say you have tried and tried and tried. I believe you. But it clearly isn't working-at least not for you. Why not consider some of the suggestions being offered here instead of ridiculing anyone who disagrees with you?


----------



## Darwin17

I have tried to sit down and talk to her about it to earnestly try to understand where she is coming from on not doing it. In a nice calm sit down manner.

I have tried to let it go and see if she can be an adult and that didn't do it.

I have tried counseling with her and that didn't do it.

I have tried sitting down and going over finances/future/want's/needs and that didn't do it.

Now I did start making her pay the electric bill and that seems to have made her start. I don't think I can go get groceries and cook them and eat them in front of her and she can't touch it till she gives me $7.00. I also don't want her debt to default causing issues in the future if/when we get a house.

Most of the stuff recommended I have tried here. I also refuse to let this go and just let it be.

So I can put more responsibility to her on bills I guess and drop the cable and let her pay for it. But I will also need to still track if she is doing anything as she has a habit of starting for a week and then nothing for months.


----------



## Pluto2

never mind.

good luck to you and the misses.


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> I have tried to sit down and talk to her about it *[TO DO WHAT I WANT]* to earnestly try to understand where she is coming from on not doing it *[DOING WHAT I WANT]*. In a nice calm sit down manner.


Where she is coming from on NOT DOING WHAT YOU WANT!

That's not a conversation! That's you telling her what SHE needs to do and asking her (did you even ask?) why she does not WANT to do what you want.

Did you ask her what SHE wants?

Do me a favor. Write down a recitation of how that conversation went. It will help us understand.



Darwin17 said:


> I have tried to let it go and see if she can be an adult *[TO DO WHAT I WANT]* and that didn't do it.
> 
> I have tried counseling with her *[TO DO WHAT I WANT]* and that didn't do it.
> 
> I have tried sitting down and going over finances/future/want's/needs *[TO DO WHAT I WANT]* and that didn't do it.
> 
> Now I did start making her pay the electric bill and that seems to have made her start. I don't think I can go get groceries and cook them and eat them in front of her and she can't touch it till she gives me $7.00. I also don't want her debt to default causing issues in the future if/when we get a house.
> 
> Most of the stuff recommended I have tried here. I also refuse to let this go and just let it be.
> 
> So I can put more responsibility to her on bills I guess and drop the cable and let her pay for it. But I will also need to still track if she is doing anything *[TO DO WHAT I WANT]* as she has a habit of starting for a week and then nothing for months.


:banghead:

I didn't say not to feed her. I said you buy the groceries. If there's something else you didn't get that she wants, she can go get with her own money.

NOWHERE in this are you even contemplating finding a compromise that makes both of you happy. You are still convinced - and refuse to see otherwise - that the ONLY solution for your marriage is for HER to get a 'real' job and earn more money.

Tell me why she has any reason to do what you want? It's YOUR plan. Not hers. 

Why can't you come up with a FAMILY plan? One that allows her to do the work she WANTS to do?


----------



## Darwin17

turnera said:


> Where she is coming from on NOT DOING WHAT YOU WANT!
> 
> That's not a conversation! That's you telling her what SHE needs to do and asking her (did you even ask?) why she does not WANT to do what you want.
> 
> Did you ask her what SHE wants?
> 
> Do me a favor. Write down a recitation of how that conversation went. It will help us understand.
> 
> :banghead:
> 
> I didn't say not to feed her. I said you buy the groceries. If there's something else you didn't get that she wants, she can go get with her own money.
> 
> NOWHERE in this are you even contemplating finding a compromise that makes both of you happy. You are still convinced - and refuse to see otherwise - that the ONLY solution for your marriage is for HER to get a 'real' job and earn more money.
> 
> Tell me why she has any reason to do what you want? It's YOUR plan. Not hers.
> 
> Why can't you come up with a FAMILY plan? One that allows her to do the work she WANTS to do?


I will do that.

What type of compromise can there be here? She either gets viable employment or she doesn't. I am not being an a*& with this question I really would like to know.


----------



## TeddieG

Honestly, I think you should be totally truthful with your wife. My h hooked up with his ***** after sitting around home, finishing his degree within a couple of years after he stopped moving around for military contracting jobs, and just didn't want to do ANYthing, and we needed a little bit more income every month to keep our standard of living (and he was going to have student loans to pay). I sat with him and talked with him and told him that he used to make really good money in contracting, that I was really glad he got out since he was tired of moving and so was I, that I was really glad he got to finish that degree that was so hard to complete moving around in the military and then with contracting (since it was so important to him). And I suggested that while he didn't to go out into the toxic work force, several hundred dollars a month would help, and it would help when his student loans started. 

So he took a job driving a delivery truck and his passive-aggressive self went after the woman working 30-something hours and refusing to work overtime and who wanted a daddy for her baby when she worked on Saturdays because she didn't want to pay for child care, and then she wanted a baby for her daddy period, since the real daddy did nothing but pay child support which barely made the house payment . . . 

I WISH my h had said, you know, hon, I'd really like to oblige you, but I really don't want to go to work for a while, can we cut back, can we move, blah blah blah . . .

HONESTY!!! TRANSPARENCY!!! It's the name of the game and it was the first casualty in my marriage and the rest of it came tumbling down. 

So tell your wife, look, hon, when were in counseling during our engagement, I explained the importance of you earning money. Then I caved and said, never mind, don't worry about it, but you know, I didn't mean DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT FOREVER!!! I meant . . . .(whatever you meant) but I DID have hope AND expectation that in time you would take advantage of that earning power provided by your degree. And while we're on the subject, the retirement account has taken a hit, this happened, that happened . . . 

JUST TELL HER everything you've told us. Tell her it cannot go on, things have changed, you're concerned, and please, consider helping, consider being a partner, and let her talk about HER concerns and where she's coming from, and for God's sake, just do it like two grown people who have made a commitment to each other and who just need to restore the transparency. 

Is it all that hard?????


----------



## turnera

> What type of compromise can there be here? She either gets viable employment or she doesn't. I am not being an a*& with this question I really would like to know.


Well, the first thing I would do is fix your communication; it's a fair bet that she has completely shut down on sharing her feelings with you due to your overbearing and condescending "only I am right" attitude. I say that because I LIVED your life. I was your wife. We always had to do things his way because he always had the right answer. If I ever brought up an alternative, I was shut down, sometimes not so nicely. So I just figured 'why bother? he never listens to my opinions anyway.'

So I would suggest first set up MC appointments and tell the counselor that you want to improve y'all's communications. That's something MCs are very helpful with. I'd be willing to bet that she has a LOT to say.

Then, once you two are actually speaking to each other, rather than you imposing dictates on what she should do and she is sharing with you how she feels - THEN, you can sit down and say 'so what does your future look like?' and then shut up and listen.

Once you know what SHE wants in her life (she already knows your dreams, but won't hurt to share it, since you're now communicating), THEN you can sit down and say 'so tell me how you think we can accomplish what I want as WELL as what you want? I want to hear how you think we can swing it. And then shut up and listen.

And THEN you come back in another week or two, after you've had time to think about it, and sit down and brainstorm. Together.

Say she says she really likes retail. And you say you want her to earn more money. Ask her to come up with three potential ways she can stay in retail and earn more money. And then shut up and listen. 

Agree on one you're both ok with, and then ask her to come up with a plan and timeline. Like maybe apply at Neimann Marcus instead of TJ Maxx, maybe the pay is higher? Or maybe she needs to take some sort of management course at the local community college so she can apply for management jobs, or a design course so she can be the store display designer. 

Stuff like that. Let it be HER plan; you may have to be a little strict on the timeline. Maybe offer a consequence if she hasn't followed through on her plan in 3 months, like stopping the cable so she has a financial incentive. But this time, you're setting that up with HER blessing. Instead of treating her like a child, you are being open and honest and saying 'I understand you're not as motivated as I am; I get it; I just need to find a way that we both get what we need out of this, so do you think it's fair that if you haven't gotten around to going through with this plan in 3 months, I'll hand off one of the bills to you?'

Or ask her what is it about retail that she likes so much. Is it the interaction? Brainstorm other jobs that provide that kind of interaction, like PR work. Is it helping people? Brainstorm jobs that let her help people. The key word being brainstorm - meaning BOTH of you are providing ideas. This has to become something BOTH of you want, or it will never work.

None of this is going to work until you fix the communication issue first, though. She clearly doesn't trust you to be honest with you; that has to be addressed or she'll continue to stonewall.


----------



## Darwin17

TeddieG said:


> Honestly, I think you should be totally truthful with your wife. My h hooked up with his ***** after sitting around home, finishing his degree within a couple of years after he stopped moving around for military contracting jobs, and just didn't want to do ANYthing, and we needed a little bit more income every month to keep our standard of living (and he was going to have student loans to pay). I sat with him and talked with him and told him that he used to make really good money in contracting, that I was really glad he got out since he was tired of moving and so was I, that I was really glad he got to finish that degree that was so hard to complete moving around in the military and then with contracting (since it was so important to him). And I suggested that while he didn't to go out into the toxic work force, several hundred dollars a month would help, and it would help when his student loans started.
> 
> So he took a job driving a delivery truck and his passive-aggressive self went after the woman working 30-something hours and refusing to work overtime and who wanted a daddy for her baby when she worked on Saturdays because she didn't want to pay for child care, and then she wanted a baby for her daddy period, since the real daddy did nothing but pay child support which barely made the house payment . . .
> 
> I WISH my h had said, you know, hon, I'd really like to oblige you, but I really don't want to go to work for a while, can we cut back, can we move, blah blah blah . . .
> 
> HONESTY!!! TRANSPARENCY!!! It's the name of the game and it was the first casualty in my marriage and the rest of it came tumbling down.
> 
> So tell your wife, look, hon, when were in counseling during our engagement, I explained the importance of you earning money. Then I caved and said, never mind, don't worry about it, but you know, I didn't mean DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT FOREVER!!! I meant . . . .(whatever you meant) but I DID have hope AND expectation that in time you would take advantage of that earning power provided by your degree. And while we're on the subject, the retirement account has taken a hit, this happened, that happened . . .
> 
> JUST TELL HER everything you've told us. Tell her it cannot go on, things have changed, you're concerned, and please, consider helping, consider being a partner, and let her talk about HER concerns and where she's coming from, and for God's sake, just do it like two grown people who have made a commitment to each other and who just need to restore the transparency.
> 
> Is it all that hard?????


The only problem is I have done exactly what you are talking about over and over..........that is why I am here


----------



## Darwin17

turnera said:


> Well, the first thing I would do is fix your communication; it's a fair bet that she has completely shut down on sharing her feelings with you due to your overbearing and condescending "only I am right" attitude. I say that because I LIVED your life. I was your wife. We always had to do things his way because he always had the right answer. If I ever brought up an alternative, I was shut down, sometimes not so nicely. So I just figured 'why bother? he never listens to my opinions anyway.'
> 
> So I would suggest first set up MC appointments and tell the counselor that you want to improve y'all's communications. That's something MCs are very helpful with. I'd be willing to bet that she has a LOT to say.
> 
> Then, once you two are actually speaking to each other, rather than you imposing dictates on what she should do and she is sharing with you how she feels - THEN, you can sit down and say 'so what does your future look like?' and then shut up and listen.
> 
> Once you know what SHE wants in her life (she already knows your dreams, but won't hurt to share it, since you're now communicating), THEN you can sit down and say 'so tell me how you think we can accomplish what I want as WELL as what you want? I want to hear how you think we can swing it. And then shut up and listen.
> 
> And THEN you come back in another week or two, after you've had time to think about it, and sit down and brainstorm. Together.
> 
> Say she says she really likes retail. And you say you want her to earn more money. Ask her to come up with three potential ways she can stay in retail and earn more money. And then shut up and listen.
> 
> Agree on one you're both ok with, and then ask her to come up with a plan and timeline. Like maybe apply at Neimann Marcus instead of TJ Maxx, maybe the pay is higher? Or maybe she needs to take some sort of management course at the local community college so she can apply for management jobs, or a design course so she can be the store display designer.
> 
> Stuff like that. Let it be HER plan; you may have to be a little strict on the timeline. Maybe offer a consequence if she hasn't followed through on her plan in 3 months, like stopping the cable so she has a financial incentive. But this time, you're setting that up with HER blessing. Instead of treating her like a child, you are being open and honest and saying 'I understand you're not as motivated as I am; I get it; I just need to find a way that we both get what we need out of this, so do you think it's fair that if you haven't gotten around to going through with this plan in 3 months, I'll hand off one of the bills to you?'
> 
> Or ask her what is it about retail that she likes so much. Is it the interaction? Brainstorm other jobs that provide that kind of interaction, like PR work. Is it helping people? Brainstorm jobs that let her help people. The key word being brainstorm - meaning BOTH of you are providing ideas. This has to become something BOTH of you want, or it will never work.
> 
> None of this is going to work until you fix the communication issue first, though. She clearly doesn't trust you to be honest with you; that has to be addressed or she'll continue to stonewall.


Thank you


----------



## Satya

Darwin, any chance you could get your wife to post here?


----------



## NobodySpecial

turnera said:


> Again, for the umpteenth time, it's not that she's not earning enough to please you. It's the WAY you are trying to force the issue.
> 
> Why are you so unwilling to discuss the possibility of you changing your approach?


Cuz the approach he is using is working so well for him! Clearly he needs to stick with that!


----------



## Darwin17

Satya said:


> Darwin, any chance you could get your wife to post here?


Highly doubt it. To be honest me going to her and saying "hey honey want to check out how unhappy I am and told our issue to complete strangers in desperation for alternatives" would go so well.

She was curious a couple of nights ago while she was doing something else why I was writing a novel on my laptop.


----------



## Erudite

I am going to float something out there that I think will get you some of the answers you want. Instead of telling her to make more money tell her you would like to pay for it all. This is how it is working right now. She works. Pays for car and cell (she should have money left over but whatevs) the money that she is paying via her job is money that you are not paying and can put toward whatever you want (like retirement fund). Tell her that you would love for her to continue working and it would simplify budgeting if you two could just float her check(s) right into the retirement fund (or whatever financial obstacle you need to tackle). Direct deposit! You implied earlier that if she earned more it would all go to savings anyway.

If she balks at this it would be a good time to ask her why she is balking. Does she feel like she would lose her independence? Would she feel like a "kept woman"? She may even say to herself "I'm worth so much more than just a retirement acct!"


----------



## TeddieG

Darwin17 said:


> The only problem is I have done exactly what you are talking about over and over..........that is why I am here


I think that you THINK you have. My h was convinced he had talked to me and tried to talk to me and ya know what? Until he announced he loved me but wasn't in love with me, I had no idea there was a problem, just like he told his OW we were only together for a year before we married (as opposed to 11) and it was just a marriage of convenience. Based on the consistent description of your delivery and your approach, forcing her and demanding her to do what you want, and she's not able to tell her side, it is hard to tell. But it DOES seem that some people are showing up here with some answers or suggestions for you that you are responding to, and see how long it took to get you to that point? The same could be true for your wife . . . there's a lot of ground to cover and stuff to uncover and unload before the work can begin.


----------



## Darwin17

Erudite said:


> I am going to float something out there that I think will get you some of the answers you want. Instead of telling her to make more money tell her you would like to pay for it all. This is how it is working right now. She works. Pays for car and cell (she should have money left over but whatevs) the money that she is paying via her job is money that you are not paying and can put toward whatever you want (like retirement fund). Tell her that you would love for her to continue working and it would simplify budgeting if you two could just float her check(s) right into the retirement fund (or whatever financial obstacle you need to tackle). Direct deposit! You implied earlier that if she earned more it would all go to savings anyway.
> 
> If she balks at this it would be a good time to ask her why she is balking. Does she feel like she would lose her independence? Would she feel like a "kept woman"? She may even say to herself "I'm worth so much more than just a retirement acct!"


Her current income dos not allow for that. It is why I want her to do something different.


----------



## Erudite

Darwin17 said:


> Her current income dos not allow for that. It is why I want her to do something different.


Allow for what?!?!!? Then have her sign her checks over to you and you take that amount from your account and put it into a retirement fund. I am getting the feeling that contributes more than you say she does.

Have you ever wondered why people comingle finances? Yes budgeting is easier but it also lessen the its my money and I will spend it how I want thinking. Put all your money in a pot and make a budget. Make allowance for the car she wants, the phone plan she wants. Now all of a sudden the grocery money isn't there. So now you suffer with her. You are no longer eating steak you are eating ramen noodles together. Before you were saying I want steak make more money or ill be eating steak and you'll be eating ramen. You SEPARATE YOURSELF FROM HER. 

Am I making sense? To anyone?


----------



## TeddieG

Darwin, another thing. Your wife got a teaching certificate, but those are so easy to get in some situations and so hard to use to get a real job with, especially when universities and colleges are placing student teachers in schools and they ease into open positions. The description of her degree is sociological theory or something, and the reality is in, in two states where I've lived and in the state where I live now, a person with that kind of degree wouldn't even be allowed to go after a teaching certificate. In one of those states there is a process of "emergency" certification where someone gets it quick and fast, but those tend to be offered in times of teacher shortages. In the state where I live now, I work at a University and advise students on their degree programs, including Education majors, and students in traditional degrees like English and History who sometimes add teacher certification at the undergraduate level; not many degrees are conducive to just adding on a teaching certificate when it comes to the job market especially when it is competitive. In small towns it is harder to break in, and in urban areas it is harder to break in; it's less so in suburban schools sometimes. And very few universities and colleges have a "social studies" degree where someone can tack on a teaching certificate and getting a job teaching social studies in high school. To get a social studies degree people have to go through the Education programs. Otherwise, they often have to have a degree in two majors or a major or minor, like Psych and Sociology, or History and Anthropology. 

She may have attempted to apply for jobs and her resumes just get tossed in the bin. I helped a friend who hadn't taught in the public schools for 30 years get a job in a public school here, but I had to really be brutal about his resume; he got several interviews but never got the job and then when the one he really wanted came up, I said, so let me see your resume. I was absolutely appalled, and he and his wife came over and we reworked the resume (and he got the job). But even he was fortunate enough to have been trained in English, art, and special ed. His undergraduate degree WAS in Education. People teaching in the public schools now have to be able to do a LOT in terms of fields and areas they teach. People who really want a job in public education and want to move up usually end up getting a master's degree in their field and a master's degree in Education, especially if they expect to make any money. 

So there could be all kinds of reasons why your wife has applied for jobs and maybe she's tired of being discouraged. I didn't give up my day job to go full bore for my Phd, borrow a mortgage, and expect to get a job because I endured the hostility of many a male professor in graduate school at the level of my Master's degree, because I am in a conservative and traditional field (history and religion). 

So I think that since turnera's post resonated with you, maybe you could work along those same lines to find out what obstacles or anxieties or fears your wife might be experiencing. Just a thought.


----------



## turnera

intheory said:


> Darwin,
> 
> I don't get why you are being hassled so much here.
> 
> I see your wife taking advantage of you financially. You made a mistake in trusting her at the beginning:


I've seen this movie before, on these forums. And it always turns out to be one of two situations.

One, the man married a gold digger, or at least a woman who expected the man to support her. We're not far enough removed from the 60s for that to have been erased from our psyche yet. And he tries to get her to cooperate, but she never really intended to in the first place.

Two, the wife fully intended to participate and cooperate, but found once they married that their styles of doing things didn't gel, so as time went on and the man became more and more aggressive about what HE wanted, or the more she was talked over or not heard, the more she decides he's never going to hear her or let her be a full partner in terms of ideas or compromise. So either she digs her heels in and just...doesn't do what he wants, or she becomes a 'fake' version of herself out of self-protection and she stops telling him the truth or what she's really thinking. Like I said before, why bother?

She's not here so she can't tell us which is the truth. All I have to go on is what HE says, and he fully admits that he's aggressive, he has - up to about an hour ago - refused to even DISCUSS compromise, he's clearly combative (20 pages of arguing with US, no less)...so I've painted a pretty clear picture in MY mind of which of the two options is going on here. 

Now, if he'd said she talks back to him or ridicules him, maybe I'd be on board with your assessment. But unless he's just left all that out, what I see is her, when questioned, just saying 'I don't know.' That's usually the response of someone who has lost their sense of power or control. If she was a gold digger, she would have told him off by now. I think she's just trying to get by without having to stand up to him, hoping he'll just leave her alone about it.


----------



## Mr The Other

Starstarfish said:


> If a woman engaged in the same behavior we have a term for it ... "nagging."
> 
> And many threads have said, if nagging doesn't work one should accept whatever it is isn't as important to the partner, and decide on action accordingly.


Though when I wrote it on that thread I was a cruel, tyrannical slob according to many.


----------



## Mr The Other

intheory said:


> Darwin,
> 
> I don't get why you are being hassled so much here.
> .....
> I'm certain if the genders were reversed on this; the responses would be different.
> 
> ....


Yes, that is true. But that is not the world we live in. We have to make a allowance that people will be brought up with different expectations. This is why I refer to many of his complaints are rather feminist.


----------



## Darwin17

Mr The Other said:


> Yes, that is true. But that is not the world we live in. We have to make a allowance that people will be brought up with different expectations. This is why I refer to many of his complaints are rather feminist.


I do consider myself a feminist.


----------



## turnera

Maybe you didn't marry one.


----------



## Blondilocks

Sticking to the 50/50 contribution rule is not conducive to a happy marriage. Many people feel that they are giving more than 50% to the marriage. Money is not the barometer of a good marriage. Now, let's say your wife gets your definition of her dream job and she's tired and worn out by the time she gets home. Do you really think she's going to be in the mood to service your sexual needs? Then what? You'll have 'the talk' with her, again? In short, she may have the energy to entertain you in bed because she's not working 40+ hours a week.

Be careful what you wish for and remember that you can't have it all.


----------



## Nynaeve

Darwin, I get the impression you're projecting your disappointment in your own inability to earn as much money as you would like onto your wife. You've hit a wall and are not earning as much as you planned. You got it in your head that you wouldn't need to if your wife stepped up to make up the difference. But at the root is the fact that you don't believe you are earning as much as you could.

Darwin, you have a degree, yes? So, why aren't you making enough money to afford an apartment, utilities, vehicle and to set some aside for savings? Are YOU earning up to your potential? It sure doesn't sound like it.

Why don't YOU look for a better paying job? 

And if you are earning up to your full potential, then maybe you should consider moving to a less expensive place? Because a little apartment, utilities, etc, shouldn't be putting such a strain on you financially.

I'm going to bet that your obsession with controlling your wife on this topic stems from your own feelings of being out of control of your own career. I think you should look into seeing a therapist to figure out why you feel the need to control someone else rather than change your own behavior.

I agree with the others who have said you need to tell your wife she's responsible for paying her own student loans from now on. Repayment is based on her income, so she should be able to handle a car payment, cell phone and student loans on her earnings. And if she can't, then she needs to trade in the car for something cheaper. But you don't need to try to force her to do anything about that. Just tell her you're going to stop paying the loans and then stop paying the loans. She's a grown up, she can either figure out how to pay the loans herself or suffer the consequences.


----------



## Starstarfish

If you are married and file jointly, the repayment rate is based on the joint Federal income. Repayment is based only on her income if the filing is as Married Filing Separately. Which loses you other benefits for filing jointly, including the student loan Interest deduction. 

So, you'd need to figure out if that would be worth it. Might want to consult a tax service on that to compare the options.

Whether or not he's on hook for the loans depends on what he might have signed and if he lives in a joint property state. But ... even if not defaulting on the loans would wreck their credit for future purposes.


----------



## Nynaeve

intheory said:


> This is a good idea; but is it possible?
> 
> I mean, if she defaults on a loan - won't the bank come after Darwin, since they are legally married?
> 
> I think that's how it works; I could be wrong.
> 
> I hope I'm wrong. 'Cause it sounds like a good option for him.



Only if he co-signed. Otherwise spouses aren't liable for student loan debt.


----------



## DTO

Nynaeve said:


> Darwin, you have a degree, yes? So, why aren't you making enough money to afford an apartment, utilities, vehicle and to set some aside for savings? Are YOU earning up to your potential? It sure doesn't sound like it.
> 
> Why don't YOU look for a better paying job?
> 
> And if you are earning up to your full potential, then maybe you should consider moving to a less expensive place? Because a little apartment, utilities, etc, shouldn't be putting such a strain on you financially.


I'm not sure if maybe you are just trying to make a point, but being able to do all that is highly dependent on where they work. Here in SoCal, for instance, you could easily make $75k and struggle to support two people.

If I was in his shoes, I would net a little more than $4k monthly after paying taxes and health insurance. Then I would pay at least $1,600 for a 1 bedroom place close to where most good jobs are, or I could pay $1,000 far away then several hundred more to commute.

Then I'd have to pay my car and personal upkeep, everyone's food and utilities, whatever medical costs are not covered by the insurance, and such. If I'm responsible, I need life insurance in case I die and disability insurance in case I get hurt. Then I'd like to have a little fun once in a while and still save a good chunk?

Yes it can be done, and I'm not a fan of the way the OP is going about this, but taking these kinds of shots at him is unfair.


----------



## Nynaeve

DTO said:


> I'm not sure if maybe you are just trying to make a point, but being able to do all that is highly dependent on where they work. Here in SoCal, for instance, you could easily make $75k and struggle to support two people.
> 
> If I was in his shoes, I would net a little more than $4k monthly after paying taxes and health insurance. Then I would pay at least $1,600 for a 1 bedroom place close to where most good jobs are, or I could pay $1,000 far away then several hundred more to commute.
> 
> Then I'd have to pay my car and personal upkeep, everyone's food and utilities, whatever medical costs are not covered by the insurance, and such. If I'm responsible, I need life insurance in case I die and disability insurance in case I get hurt. Then I'd like to have a little fun once in a while and still save a good chunk?
> 
> Yes it can be done, and I'm not a fan of the way the OP is going about this, but taking these kinds of shots at him is unfair.


No one is "taking a shot" at him.

From what he's written, I have sincerely come to the conclusion that he's likely projecting or transferring his own issues onto his wife.

And I did say that perhaps he needs to consider moving somewhere cheaper. If the cost of living is too high for him to make ends meet and set a little aside AND he is actually earning as much as he possibly could with his degree, then considering a change of location would not be unwarranted.

But I do believe he mentioned losing his job and not making as much in sales as he had anticipated. So I'm not just making this up out of thin air.

He clearly has a sort of obsession with making his wife earn more money. That appears to be the only possible solution in his mind. It's not realistic and it's not healthy. 


BTW... I think it's a little.... ironic or odd.... that OP coming in and declaring that his wife is not earning up to her potential is fine and dandy but my suggesting that OP might not be earning up to his potential is considered "taking a shot at" him.


----------



## DTO

Hi Darwin,

You received plenty of great advice about not dictating actions to your wife and understanding her employment goals, so I won't touch those. I do empathize with what you are going through, so there are other things you need to consider.

First is do you really know your wife's lifestyle aspirations? Or even how she envisions your respective roles in marriage? I see three basic alternatives for explaining her behavior:

1. She wants more gainful employment but lacks the skills to get it, or the opportunities are not available in your area.
2. She is happy with her job now and does not have a whole lot of wants (house not that important, etc.).
3. She is happy with her job now but expects you to support the family while she basically works for herself.

Knowing which is not just about influencing her behavior. It will also drive your own behavior. You are going in circles if you don't know.

Second, have a sense of self-worth independent of other's opinion of you. You do not have to feel bad if your wife does not get her financial wants met if they are beyond your ability. Ditto for the student loans and such. Many (if not most) guys cannot afford to be the sole support for a family; that is just reality.

Third, you cannot be forced to do anything you don't want to either. You can prioritize yourself as much as she can for herself. It is completely acceptable for you to tell her you won't spend for a house if you are going to be the only one paying the note, or you are shifting priorities to building financial security and she has to pay her own tuition note, etc. If she argues that it's your responsibility as the man to pay the bills, you don't have to accept that either.

Your frustration is palpable to me. I remember feeling similarly stuck and frustrated until I realized that I was doing fine, providing plenty, and decided to make my best interests a priority. After that, a burden was lifted and I became much happier.

HTH


----------



## DTO

Nynaeve said:


> No one is "taking a shot" at him.
> 
> But I do believe he mentioned losing his job and not making as much in sales as he had anticipated. So I'm not just making this up out of thin air.
> 
> He clearly has a sort of obsession with making his wife earn more money. That appears to be the only possible solution in his mind. It's not realistic and it's not healthy.
> 
> BTW... I think it's a little.... ironic or odd.... that OP coming in and declaring that his wife is not earning up to her potential is fine and dandy but my suggesting that OP might not be earning up to his potential is considered "taking a shot at" him.


I interpreted his job loss and sales gig to illustrate the lengths he goes to in order to make sure the family is supported.

I agree his fixation with her earning more money is not productive. My gut says he is pressuring her to earn more because he feels pressure (real or imagined, stated or unstated) from her. That is why I suggested he (1) make sure she expects those things (because she gives the same sort of non-answer when he asks her if she wants a house as when he asks if she wants a better job) and (2) learn how to find his own level and be comfortable.

Suggesting that he earn more money is taking a shot given the already large income discrepancy between them.


----------



## Darwin17

Nynaeve said:


> No one is "taking a shot" at him.
> 
> From what he's written, I have sincerely come to the conclusion that he's likely projecting or transferring his own issues onto his wife.
> 
> And I did say that perhaps he needs to consider moving somewhere cheaper. If the cost of living is too high for him to make ends meet and set a little aside AND he is actually earning as much as he possibly could with his degree, then considering a change of location would not be unwarranted.
> 
> But I do believe he mentioned losing his job and not making as much in sales as he had anticipated. So I'm not just making this up out of thin air.
> 
> He clearly has a sort of obsession with making his wife earn more money. That appears to be the only possible solution in his mind. It's not realistic and it's not healthy.
> 
> 
> BTW... I think it's a little.... ironic or odd.... that OP coming in and declaring that his wife is not earning up to her potential is fine and dandy but my suggesting that OP might not be earning up to his potential is considered "taking a shot at" him.


You did take a shot at me and it is just silly and dense of you. Did you read how I am paying for EVERYTHING? So if she could start to contribute then we would be in a better place. She might as well be a stay at home housewife. We don't have kids, we live in a small one bedroom place, she has a degree etc. She needs to find something that will help the family and she has not been doing it plane and simple.

Telling me to get a better paying job is silly. If I was making twice as much I would still have the same problem with her not doing anything to her potential or trying.


----------



## turnera

I suggest you read No More Mr Nice Guy. It will teach you how to set boundaries for what you expect out of a marriage, and how to get them. Instead of pressuring her to give you what you want and losing her love in the meantime.

Nynaeve did NOT take a shot at you; you are just hypersensitive to any looks at YOU, for some reason. 

She was validly trying to get you to dig a little deeper into WHY this is all going on. Because it's rarely as simple as you think it is. In fact, you came here thinking you were 100% right and she was 100% wrong and have learned, over the past 20 pages, that it's a lot more gray than that. No black and white.

Because you can only come up with a real solution when you acknowledge the real problem. And like it or not, you are part of the problem. And that's not a dis. It's a logical observation and what Nynaeve suggested is statistically very very common, so it's a good possibility.


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> Telling me to get a better paying job is silly. If I was making twice as much I would still have the same problem with her not doing anything to her potential or trying.


So, what you're really saying is, you just don't like a woman who doesn't bust her ass like you THINK she should. So you will continue to look down your nose at her until she BECOMES this superwoman. 

But what will you choose to denigrate her for then? What's next?

Reminder: You are NOT her father. It is NOT your job to mold her to YOUR image. 

And the ultimate outcome of this is a WAW.


----------



## jdawg2015

My ex sister in law got her teaching certificate after graduating college. Her cousin owns a breakfast restaurant in New Hampshire and after the first summer she started working there for cash. Then she married my ex brother in law.

When the time came to go back to school, she decided to stay busing tables 3 days a week. Of course do you think she claims all her tips? 

It's been 15 or more years later. She could work 5 days a week if she wanted to but refuses. They now have two kids both in school. The own a condo that's only 2 bedrooms so they have a 13 yo girl and 9 year old boy sharing a room. AND she complains about never having money. LOL.

Moral to the story? Someone always has it worse 

My poor brother in law. No idea how he deals with her.


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## mmj5667

Let it go and adjust your lifestyle accordingly. Don't be a money grubber......


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## turnera

I don't think he's insecure about the money he makes. I think he hates his job and if she were earning more money, he'd be more free to explore other options. Thus, his unhappiness is her fault.

The real problem here is lack of real communication. Therapy and NMMNG will help with that. Once you BOTH are being heard, you will both feel like working on a JOINT solution.


----------



## Darwin17

Accusing me of a money grubber is just a joke as I AM THE ONE THAT MAKES THE MONEY. I like the book and have ordered in on Amazon. Not expecting a miracle but will give it a shot as who knows.

I don't hate me job at all any more. It is easy and it got me back home. 

She has been actually been applying to jobs now without my pressure. Her job transfer put her a ways away from where we live and the manager is not giving her every other weekend off so she is now looking. I did ask her how many she did over the week last night and she said 9. I asked her why she didn't get to 14 like we agreed upon and she said that "life got in the way".

To be honest just seeing her apply to jobs consistently now is putting less pressure on my thoughts. 

Seems like it took an external pressure for her to do it but she is starting at least.


----------



## NobodySpecial

D I think the points you are missing are as follows

- You cannot change someone. You just can't. You can't make or get them to do anything. Any past success at this is a pure accident and is not predictive of the future.

- You CAN hope to get a different REaction from a change in your ACTION. Different action from you may engender a different REaction from her.

If you can look at the suggestions herein with that filter on vs the blame/fault/accusation filter you seem to be stuck in, maybe that would help.


----------



## Darwin17

The only things that have worked are as follows:

1. I ride her and she does it reluctantly 

2. Her work has changed dramatically in terms of distance and schedule. Her manager is scheduling her close one day and open the next (not fun), closing multiple times a week and getting home super late (store closes at 8:00 and she isn't out of there till 10:00), her drive distance is 20 miles so it takes a long time in the city we are at, she is working every weekend now vs having every other one off....

#1 didn't seem to work as it is very hard to change someone but #2 she is miserable and is actually doing something for the first time in over 10 years in terms of finding employment.

She got home at 11:00 last night and I asked what she was doing home so late when I know the store closes at 8:00. She complained about it hard core and then I asked her what the rest of the schedule looked like for the week. She told me that she is opening today and I asked her how she felt about the close late one day and open the next one and she complained again. I then asked her about the weekend and she was working Saturday and this is the third week in a row and again I asked her how she felt about that and she complained again.

It is a sales tactic that I am well trained on that you just read above and she is wildly applying for jobs now. I have no influence on this new development other than she is miserable now vs just going with the flow like nothing matters. I will however continue to ask about her schedule etc just to make sure she is still pissed about it. I will also keep on doing fun things on the days she works (stuff I would be doing anyways with her preferably) and continue living life to the fullest with or without her. When she rejoins the real work force it will be a welcome addition to the weekend fun!


----------



## Starstarfish

I just can't figure out why you can't be happy with apparently getting what you want without embracing this mental trick mentality of encouraging her to be pissed about her job and still using throw away phrases and insults like "rejoin the real workforce." And of course let her know that you are going to keep having fun without her.

Honestly that seems really emotionally immature. 

If your work situation changed for the worse and you had to work weekends would her gloating be okay with you? Did she gloat when you got fired?


----------



## Darwin17

I no way am I meaning to gloat and I can see where that came off. You need to realize that for the past 10 years this has been an issue and for the past 5 she has worked a a job that does nothing for us but take away her weekends and nights and doesn't help pay for anything.

When I say "rejoin the real workforce" I am meaning get an adult job that can help pay for bills that gives her nights and weekends off. I want to spend those nights and weekends with her as I love her and have allot of fun as I am the "lets go do this" person in our group of friends. I also get really tired of "where is your wife" or "why didn't your wife come".

I am not going to sit at home on a Friday night or Saturday waiting for her to come home. I will do other things like live my life and if she misses it it will be her fault. Some people can sit around and watch TV all day but I am not one of those people. I plan on boating this Saturday.....she will miss that.....it is her problem/fault. Why do you ask? She chooses to work in her current job and has not looked to get something different. I will treat that with any job she gets that will not have normal hours. 

I don't see how that is gloating or immature. She is not disabled and is completely capable of finding a job where she has "normal" hours but has not for years. 

So do you expect me to just sit there at home and wait for her to get home? I know when she has off on a Tuesday she does things without me.

She has finally started to look for jobs without me pestering her to and for that I am happy but she needs to keep it up as this is just the weekend an Monday that this started. 

When I got fired she didn't do anything and I got a new job. It is simple as that. Would I gloat if she got fired...no I would be concerned. I am betting the concern would be different though. When I didn't have a job I still payed for everything so she didn't have any change in life at all. If she got fired I would just have to pay for her car and get more stuff to pay for.


----------



## Darwin17

Starstarfish said:


> I just can't figure out why you can't be happy with apparently getting what you want without embracing this mental trick mentality of encouraging her to be pissed about her job and still using throw away phrases and insults like "rejoin the real workforce." And of course let her know that you are going to keep having fun without her.
> 
> Honestly that seems really emotionally immature.
> 
> If your work situation changed for the worse and you had to work weekends would her gloating be okay with you? Did she gloat when you got fired?


Also encouraging to get pissed about her job I don't see a problem in at all. She is looking for a new one without me riding her!!! 

I would consider that the best of both worlds. She is looking for a new job and I am helping her vent. So she is happy I am concerned about her job stuff and I am happy she is looking for a job.


----------



## Starstarfish

But "adult job" and not working nights/weekends are not synonymous in all career fields. Not all jobs are 9-5 clock in/clock out no responsibility outside of that. 

As I noted earlier in the thread, certainly not retail management, and not teaching really either - the fields in which she has training and experience. 

So, at some point that might require a choice of what's more important - her being available nights and weekends or her making enough money (IE, at least $40,000). Because which is the most important factor, the time or the money, seems to wax and wane in your posts.


----------



## Starstarfish

> I will treat that with any job she gets that will not have normal hours.


Meaning, essentially the same hours that you work. And if your schedules don't line up, you'll both be pursuing separate lives. 



> I will do other things like live my life and if she misses it it will be her fault.





> So do you expect me to just sit there at home and wait for her to get home?


I'm not your wife, so it's not my place really to expect anything from you. But do I personally make a habit of going out and pursing fun with my friends when my spouse is at work? No, I don't. And I'm 100% certain that if you were a female OP saying you were out at Girls Night's Out while your husband was at work, my critique would hardly be the first or the harshest assessment of the situation. 

Essentially, you've put forth the scenario that if your wife doesn't get with "your plan" whether through you "riding her" or through her own motivation, you are going to live as if you are quasi-single whenever she's at work and you aren't. And yeah, the air you give off is that you are doing that as a punishment or a "take it or shove it" short of biting your thumb at her. 

And I don't see that underlying attitude working. I honestly feel like even if she "gets with the program" and gets this "adult job" you are hoping for (assuming of course she can in her line of work) this underlying current of you defining her by how well she kind of fits into your plan in life and dismissing that which doesn't as "worthless" and "not adult" or otherwise illegitimate speaks volumes.


----------



## turnera

My mother was a highly respected - and coveted - ER nurse for the first 20 years of her career, and she worked 3pm - 11pm. 

What you are REALLY saying - as usual - is 'my wife doesn't adhere to what *I* want in a wife, and therefore she'd better get her ass in line and do it the way I want.

Just so you know, my dad cheated on my mom BECAUSE she worked 3-11 and wasn't there to greet him and cook him dinner. He then tried to come back when he saw the grass wasn't greener and she told him to pound sand. He then went on to marry the Wicked Witch of the West and pretty much lost his whole family. All because he wanted a 'real' woman who cooked him dinner, did his laundry, and sat by his side while he was off work, AND worked a full-time professional job to pay the bills. He got that from the WWotW (except for the working), and his life was a living hell.

Basically, it sounded like last week you were starting to understand that YOUR way wasn't the only way, and now you're back to 'she'd better do it my way or else.'

Very becoming.


----------



## Muse1976

Op

You stated that the two of you went to premarital counseling. You also stated that this was an issue before you ever married her and as a condition of marriage that she would have to get a "real job". Yet you went against what you stated was a minimum requirement for you to get married. 

This is on you! 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against you, I'm simply pointing out that you went against what I can only guess is a principal of yours by the way you talk. You can ask most anybody what happens when they go against their own principles. It usually ends badly because you can't live with the fact that you broke them in the first place. You are either going to have to find a way to reconcile the fact that you broke one of your principles and live with it or reconcile your principal and forge ahead with renewed emphasis. 

Either way, this is what Gottman would call a perpetual problem and one that I don't see you resolving. Your wife is obviously comfortable with the status quo. She is either happy with her career or happy living a relatively simple life. There is nothing wrong with that. She has not changed in all the time you have known her and I wouldn't expect to see major changes now. Make no mistake though, there is nothing wrong with your vision of life either. The two of you just sound very incompatible. 

I do have an honest question though. What is the actual income disparity between the two of you? Is it 2:1,3:1 or is it more. If it's 2:1 or more I don't see the expectation that you should pick up even more slack as anything but complete @ss hattery. 

What would it take for there to be an equitable financial contribution on her part. To say that you want to see her make effort does not define a goal it just sets a general direction. 

Now IMHO, I agree with the 50/50 equality in all things principal, I just don't think you will see much of that same sentiment around here. 

That being said, all you can do is state your boundaries and explain that there are consequences for trouncing all over them. Then enforce those said boundaries if they are exceeded. You can't force anyone to do anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RogueAlpha

This reminds me of a buddy of mine, who married a girl who had never really had a full time job for more than a few months of her life. She made a career out of collecting unemployment and state benefits whenever she could + sponging off of other people. 

Of course at the time of their marriage she told him that she would be going to work full time, and then a year later she convinced him to move to (her favorite) major city so she would have more employment opportunities. 5 years later she still isn't working, and he's hanging on by a financial and emotional string. It's both frustrating and hilarious to watch her Facebook posts about "job hunting" when nobody believes she's seriously looking for work. She plays him like a fiddle while he works 60 hour weeks to support her, and her child (from a previous)...

Looking back, my buddy wasn't coming at this relationship with a lot of self esteem. Not much dating experience, and low self worth caused him to settle for someone that we all knew was below his level. Until he's ready to wake up and realize that he wants and deserves better, this cycle is just going to continue.

It sounds to me like you're at that point. You realize you wish you'd married a driven career woman, and you can't expect your wife to suddenly transform into a new person. You can either decide to stick with her, or strike out looking for someone who is more compatible with your set of wants / needs.


----------



## turnera

Exactly. Have you read No More Mr Nice Guy yet? It's a quick, easy read. It will explain a lot.


----------



## Darwin17

In a perfect world she would have a job with decent hours that are "normal" and make money at the same time. 

The world is not perfect though and if she found a job that brought in more $$$ then I would be ok with that as she would be contributing. Now if she makes the same money but a job with "normal" hours I would be ok for a bit but would probably start to get pissed after 2 years. This is because I feel she needs to contribute more financially than being here at the same time I am.

In terms of doing my own thing. I would do the same with her or without her not because she isn't there.......not understanding why that is so hard to understand. Example would be last night. She got home at 9:00 at night. I went to a sports bar to watch playoff baseball and didn't get home till 10:00. She was asleep by the time I got home so she missed me and a chance to have a good time. My choice was to stay at home and do nothing or go have some fun......you tell me what I am supposed to do there. I would have gone anyways but she was not there and it is simple as that. Did I go to piss her off or in spite of her.....no.

I texted her and let her know where I was at and she could join me but she go home way too late to make it worth it. 

I don't think that is nasty behavior and it is how I treat all of the situations she is working and I want to do something. It really hits more on the weekends such as this Saturday when she is closing. I will be up north of town as I will hang out with my parents and friends and will end up spending the night there. I will be spending the night as in all odds I will have more than 3 drinks in me and I will not drive with anything more than 2 in me. She will probably get home around 10:00 or 11:00. My choices are to sit at home all day Saturday and watch TV or go experience life and see my parents and friends. Is that being bad towards her or am I doing that in spite of her....no.

She would prefer to be included in this but she can't go because she is working a job she chooses to work at. She would prefer to be with me on Saturday but that just isn't a reality. Sunday I won't be home till later and she probably won't be up north with me as it is a drive to do it. Again she could have came if she was not working a job that has crap hours.

You people think I am doing stuff when she is gone because she is gone and that is not true.


----------



## Darwin17

I will also fully admit that by marrying her I did violate my rule. Either way she would be with me and I would be paying for everything and be pissed about it. Yes I could walk away if we were not married but I have no intention of doing that.

I love her regardless but am pissed about this. You can be angry at a spouse and still love them.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Darwin17 said:


> You people think I am doing stuff when she is gone because she is gone and that is not true.


No, this is how you twist things to be right. I said she was avoiding you by working this job.


----------



## Starstarfish

It's only seen as a positive if you are male, then it's Alpha. If you are female you'd be accused of looking for strange hanging out in bars by yourself. Followed by a call to "go dark" and put a VAR in your car.


----------



## Darwin17

phillybeffandswiss said:


> No, this is how you twist things to be right. I said she was avoiding you by working this job.


Explain further please


----------



## Darwin17

intheory said:


> This is perfect. A textbook example of someone acting on their best interests.
> 
> She will change because she doesn't like her new manager and working conditions. Not because she wants to help you out, Darwin.
> 
> But hey, she's looking to improve her situation, you have to take what you can get sometimes.
> 
> And she's not unusual. Most of us are innately selfish, and only do what's best for us. She's human, you're human.
> 
> Learn this lesson about her, though. Your frustration and happiness don't register nearly as much as her dislike of her new commute and compressed working schedule.
> 
> ***************
> 
> Try not to beat up on yourself too much over marrying her, with the expectation that she would follow through on what was agreed on in pre-marital counseling. Like I said before, she may have gotten a full time teaching job; then quit after the first school year. So, you might have been in this situation either way.
> 
> *******************
> 
> As far as keeping yourself busy while she is at work; and not putting your life and hobbies on hold? Around here, that is usually seen as highly commendable. It is seen as a more "alpha" attribute. Letting your wife see that you are a socially attractive guy whose whole life doesn't revolve around her.
> 
> I think it's good just for the fact that you are staying busy and happy as an adult human being.
> 
> ********************
> 
> Hope this current trend keeps up, and your wife has success looking for a new job.


I am very happy in general and except for this my wife and I get along fine.

It does make me frustrated that it took this for her to do it but I will take it and am just glad she is doing it finally. I get allot less angry about it when I look over and she is actually doing something about her job situation.

I don't beat myself up for getting married at all. I do love her and asked her to marry me. 

I am not leaving her as this is not something like cheating or something else that would be dramatic like that.

We have a strong relationship in general and communicate fairly well except for this issue.


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> I texted her and let her know where I was at and she could join me but she go home way too late to make it worth it.
> 
> I don't think that is nasty behavior and it is how I treat all of the situations she is working and I want to do something.
> 
> You people think I am doing stuff when she is gone because she is gone and that is not true.


Darwin, what's happening is that the WAY you describe these situations is just dripping with sarcasm, disrespect, and intolerance. In real life, you and she may get along just fine and this disdain you have for her only shows up here in your writing. 

But such feelings almost always seep through the fabric and the other person is usually fully aware how you feel about them.

As I've said, the mere fact that she says "I don't know" when you take her to task tells me that she KNOWS your opinion of her and has decided to live a superficial life with you, where she seems happy, interacts happily with you...yet has pulled back her vulnerability from you. I know because I lived it; as I've said, my H is just like you. He became unsafe for one reason: he refused to be open and interested in learning MY side, MY goals, MY dreams...simply because they didn't line up with HIS, and only HIS were the right ones. 

Can you even acknowledge why we're harping on this?


----------



## Starstarfish

Actually, I wasn't totally joking about the bars. In his summary of activities the OP says he'll be doing when the wife is at work, both mention drinking. Including planning on drinking to the point of not being able to drive.

So ... do I feel like the response of "staying busy and being a happy person" would be a lot different if this was a female OP. Yes. I can think of a lot of threads where a male OP has mentioned a wife who goes out with friends, gets drunk and sleeps somewhere else. How do you think people took that?

So do I expect people to not have hobbies or interests, no. Not at all. I have hobbies and interests separate from my husband.

But I don't think drinking to excess or hanging out in bars at 30 + are really appropriate choices, no l, given the whole emphasis on "acting like an adult."


----------



## Darwin17

Starstarfish said:


> Actually, I wasn't totally joking about the bars. In his summary of activities the OP says he'll be doing when the wife is at work, both mention drinking. Including planning on drinking to the point of not being able to drive.
> 
> So ... do I feel like the response of "staying busy and being a happy person" would be a lot different if this was a female OP. Yes. I can think of a lot of threads where a male OP has mentioned a wife who goes out with friends, gets drunk and sleeps somewhere else. How do you think people took that?
> 
> So do I expect people to not have hobbies or interests, no. Not at all. I have hobbies and interests separate from my husband.
> 
> But I don't think drinking to excess or hanging out in bars at 30 + are really appropriate choices, no l, given the whole emphasis on "acting like an adult."


So if the one time this year I have gone to a bar is to watch a Playoff game with other fans........sorry not biting.

My hobby is not drinking but when people get together at least in my circle of friends and family there is usually some alcohol.

Also I am not talking about getting blackout drunk like some college kid just I do not prefer to drive if I have been drinking.


----------



## Darwin17

turnera said:


> Darwin, what's happening is that the WAY you describe these situations is just dripping with sarcasm, disrespect, and intolerance. In real life, you and she may get along just fine and this disdain you have for her only shows up here in your writing.
> 
> But such feelings almost always seep through the fabric and the other person is usually fully aware how you feel about them.
> 
> As I've said, the mere fact that she says "I don't know" when you take her to task tells me that she KNOWS your opinion of her and has decided to live a superficial life with you, where she seems happy, interacts happily with you...yet has pulled back her vulnerability from you. I know because I lived it; as I've said, my H is just like you. He became unsafe for one reason: he refused to be open and interested in learning MY side, MY goals, MY dreams...simply because they didn't line up with HIS, and only HIS were the right ones.
> 
> Can you even acknowledge why we're harping on this?


I can totally agree the way things are coming out it probably sounds like I am an asshat. There is no doubt that I am here because I am not happy about the situation and when I get angry sarcasm comes out.

I try to be open with my wife and we talk about goals and dreams etc and we are very in line it would seem. It is when I go over the financial side of accomplishing those goals and dreams where she shuts off.


----------



## Darwin17

Starstarfish said:


> It's only seen as a positive if you are male, then it's Alpha. If you are female you'd be accused of looking for strange hanging out in bars by yourself. Followed by a call to "go dark" and put a VAR in your car.


Your quote is sexist as all get out.....just saying

It is 2015 here and if a woman want's to go to a bar then go for it. If my job pulled me out till late at night and my wife wanted to go to a bar I would have NO PROBLEM with it.

Notice I told her where I was and what I was doing and where I was at if she wanted to join? 

You must have missed that part


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> So if the one time this year I have gone to a bar is to watch a Playoff game with other fans........sorry not biting.


To be fair, you make it sound like you go out nearly every single week.


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> I try to be open with my wife and we talk about goals and dreams etc and we are very in line it would seem. It is when I go over the financial side of accomplishing those goals and dreams where she shuts off.


Why do you think that is?


----------



## Darwin17

turnera said:


> To be fair, you make it sound like you go out nearly every single week.


I mainly do things with friends and family. All of my friends have children and I love my parents and to see them.

It is the reason we moved back home 6 weeks ago.

99% of my doing something it is with those that I am closest with

I wish she could be there for most of it and love it when get asked "where is your wife"


----------



## Darwin17

turnera said:


> Why do you think that is?


You like to think she is "shutting me off" but I think she sees where the conversation is going and doesn't want to talk about it.

Last night we had a good conversation where she told me "I know you hate my job so you can quit bringing it up"

My response was "I see you are applying for jobs now with consistency and you will never here it from me again as long as you keep it up"

I do what I say I am going to do and as long as she is doing her side nothing comes out of my mouth.

I don't rub in days she is working and I am not but do express I would have loved it if she would have been able to join.


----------



## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> You like to think she is "shutting me off" but I think she sees where the conversation is going and doesn't want to talk about it.


Errr...uh...what do YOU think 'doesn't want to talk about it' means?


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## Darwin17

she stonewalls me.....but right now it is all good because she is looking actively now so at this point I am fine now


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## Starstarfish

Darwin17 said:


> Starstarfish said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's only seen as a positive if you are male, then it's Alpha. If you are female you'd be accused of looking for strange hanging out in bars by yourself. Followed by a call to "go dark" and put a VAR in your car.
> 
> 
> 
> Your quote is sexist as all get out.....just saying
> 
> It is 2015 here and if a woman want's to go to a bar then go for it. If my job pulled me out till late at night and my wife wanted to go to a bar I would have NO PROBLEM with it.
> 
> Notice I told her where I was and what I was doing and where I was at if she wanted to join?
> 
> You must have missed that part
Click to expand...

Whether or not going out to bars without ones spouse is a good idea is a hot button and fairly regular topic here on TAM. 

Thus the post you quoted was mostly a call out to other frequent TAMers that that the attitude of "do what you go to do" is a lot different than what people say about women who do the same thing.

Pointing out the inherent sexism floating around is sort of the hill I chose to die on.

But yes, when the only things you mention is drinking, it gives the impression that's all you do. Sorry for the conclusion if that's not accurate. 

You mentioned moving closer to your friends and family. Where are her friends and family?


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## turnera

Darwin17 said:


> she stonewalls me.....but right now it is all good because she is looking actively now so at this point I am fine now


Uh huh.

So you have NO curiosity to find out WHY she feels she needs to stonewall you?

So as long as YOU get what you want, who cares what she's thinking or feeling...as long as she performs as expected?

Ever watch When Harry Met Sally?


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