# Camera laws



## Bananapeel

Does anyone know what the laws are regarding whether it is legal to put a hidden recording device in your house without your spouse knowing? I'd hate to get prosecuted for trying to gather evidence. I already used a VAR recorder but would like something more substantial.


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## Bananapeel

...


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## GusPolinski

First let me ask this...

Did you get anything w/ the VAR?


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## ScrambledEggs

Bananapeel said:


> Does anyone know what the laws are regarding whether it is legal to put a hidden recording device in your house without your spouse knowing? I'd hate to get prosecuted for trying to gather evidence. I already used a VAR recorder but would like something more substantial.





> Hidden cameras: It is a felony to photograph or record a person “in a state of undress” in a place where the person has a reasonable expectation of privacy. Neb. Rev. Stat. § 28-311.08. The law, however, does not criminalize the use of recording devices for other purposes in areas to which the public has access or there is no reasonable expectation of privacy (i.e., filming conversations on public streets or a hotel lobby). - See more at: Nebraska | Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press



Nebraska | Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press

So I am not an attorney, but I take from this that a camera in a bedroom could get you in trouble, but a camera in a living space, living room/Kitchen should be OK. Even through most people expect privacy in their entire home, unless it is your wife's habit to run around the house naked you should safe to record throughout your house. 

Though if she sees the camera and is clever enough to run through the kitchen naked, then prosecute you..well then maybe you have a problem. Point the camera's in your personal space or outside (driveway/walkway/front door). You don't really need to see them grind to know what they are doing.


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## gouge_away

I know in Wisconsin you can record anybody without their knowledge. However you would need their consent (before recording) if you wanted to use it in court. So, it might allow you to make decisions on how you will approach a breach of 'good faith,' but won't incriminate the offender.

Employers use this tactic to fire people all the time.


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## ScrambledEggs

Also there is this:



> Since Nebraska adopted “no-fault” divorces in 1972, however, courts can’t consider bad behavior during the marriage when determining alimony.


Adultery in Nebraska: Does Cheating Affect Alimony? | DivorceNet.com


So all you are doing is proving it to yourself so the standard of proof is different. Don't take needless risks.


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## convert

It sometimes makes a difference if the camera is just video or video and audio recording, in some cases it is less restrictive if there is only video without the audio sound.

Most video recordings are legal with or without consent. 
There are very few laws which prohibit video recording of any kind, but there are laws in some areas dealing with *a**reas of expected privacy. These include areas such as bathrooms, locker rooms, changing/dressing rooms, adult bedrooms, and other areas where a person should expect a high level of personal privacy.* 
The majority of the laws dealing with video recording privacy issues tend to allow surreptitious recording and monitoring of video activity under most circumstances without notification of any of the parties involved. 

here is a good link that talks about just video and audio recording:
http://www.palmvid.com/content/support/legal-information-regarding-audio-and-video-recording.html


Nebraska is a one party state to audio recording but you still need to one of the parties being recorded.
http://www.detectiveservices.com/2012/02/27/state-by-state-recording-laws/


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## Bananapeel

GusPolinski said:


> First let me ask this...
> 
> Did you get anything w/ the VAR?


Yes. I have irrefutable proof.


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## ScrambledEggs

Bananapeel said:


> Yes. I have irrefutable proof.


Then what more do you need? Are you a masochist? Expose the affair and get on with R or Divorce. Don't let this monitoring stuff consume your life. It can and can be incredibly toxic. 

Never tell her how you know what you know.


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## GusPolinski

ScrambledEggs said:


> Then what more do you need? Are you a masochist? Expose the affair and get on with R or Divorce. Don't let this monitoring stuff consume your life. It can and can be incredibly toxic.
> 
> Never tell her how you know what you know.


Agreed.


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## Bananapeel

I just wondered if having images would be leverage I could use when negotiating. I don't want her to take my kids and she probably wouldn't want her friends and family to know what she's done. That was why I wanted pictures. 

I just spoke with a counselor and he said never let her know what proof I have because she will never reconciliate if I have too much power over her. I don't want to even consider reconciliation at this point, but right now I am very very angry. If we didn't have kids this would be a lot easier. I'm going to take a few breaths and go for a walk.


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## GusPolinski

Sorry man.


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## BetrayedDad

Bananapeel said:


> Does anyone know what the laws are regarding whether it is legal to put a hidden recording device in your house without your spouse knowing? I'd hate to get prosecuted for trying to gather evidence. I already used a VAR recorder but would like something more substantial.


So you got her on audio screwing the dude in YOUR house already? Yeah, I don't blame you, she's a POS. That's so brazen, she has lost ALL respect for you.

I was in your situation too. Just wanted a smooth divorce. Tell her you have irrefutable proof. Do NOT tell her what it is or how you got it. Tell her you will not expose her IF she splits EVERYTHING 50/50 and agrees to a very expedited process. Get the D done as quickly as is humanly possible. While she is still agreeable. 

Once everything is final and you got what you want, expose the sh!t out of her. One good back stab deserves another.


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## ScrambledEggs

Bananapeel said:


> I just wondered if having images would be leverage I could use when negotiating. I don't want her to take my kids and she probably wouldn't want her friends and family to know what she's done. That was why I wanted pictures.
> 
> I just spoke with a counselor and he said never let her know what proof I have because she will never reconciliate if I have too much power over her. I don't want to even consider reconciliation at this point, but right now I am very very angry. If we didn't have kids this would be a lot easier. I'm going to take a few breaths and go for a walk.


Exposing her to her friends and relatives, and those of the OM can be cathartic and good for you. You could try to use that as leverage to keep the divorce civil. However, if you attempt gain an advantage in the financial agreement with a threat of releasing information you are starting to dable into the realm of criminal blackmail. If you throw pictures, audio, and video into the mix, naked or not, you have pretty much certainly crossed over to criminal behavior. Again, I am not a lawyer and you should consult one quickly, even before confronting your wife. 

But ask yourself what you are likely to gain from this gambit? When push comes to shove she knows it will all come out and could just make the matter more acrimonious. 

Think of your kids and that they will need a relationship with their mother which means you will need to have some kind of civil relationship with her has well on their behalf.

Go cool down, then start thinking like you are planning the invasion of Normandy instead of jumping into a bar fight.


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## ThePheonix

Bananapeel said:


> I just wondered if having images would be leverage I could use when negotiating. I don't want her to take my kids and she probably wouldn't want her friends and family to know what she's done. That was why I wanted pictures.


The reality is the friends that mean anything to her already know and the family may find it shocking at first, but they don't really give a rats azz. The only thing they'd get upset about is if you were cheating on her. Two years out, you be remembered as "what's his name", our daughter's ex husband and the a-hole she should have never married.


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## 3putt

People install security cameras on their property every day....inside and out. Won't be a problem.


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## manfromlamancha

There seems to be some gap between your last thread and this one - previously you were convinced that she wasn't cheating. And now you have proof ? What happened in between to make you install cameras etc.?


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## GusPolinski

manfromlamancha said:


> There seems to be some gap between your last thread and this one - previously you were convinced that she wasn't cheating. And now you have proof ? What happened in between to make you install cameras etc.?


My guess would be that he stumbled upon the Standard Evidence Post thread and figured it wouldn't hurt to spend a few bucks on a VAR.


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## gouge_away

That is all you have, leverage. You cannot use criminal conversation as punitive cause in Nebraska.

Let your lawyer know what you have, and how to introduce it to your divorce. Her lawyer of course is going to play it off, but if you can cause any doubt that her lawyer is looking out for her best interest post divorce, you already won this case.


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## The Middleman

Bananapeel said:


> Does anyone know what the laws are regarding whether it is legal to put a hidden recording device in your house without your spouse knowing? I'd hate to get prosecuted for trying to gather evidence. I already used a VAR recorder but would like something more substantial.


Why would you even give a crap about the law? You think some guy is boning your wife in your home and you're worried about the privacy law? Just get the information you need and then figure out how to prudently use it later. Few people, if any, get prosecuted under these laws in domestic cases and even fewer people bother to show up in court. I mean, would your wife really want that video actually entered into evidence? Don't over think it!



BetrayedDad said:


> Once everything is final and you got what you want, expose the sh!t out of her. One good back stab deserves another.


I can't say enough good things about the above post. Once you got what you want, destroy her.


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## MattMatt

The Middleman said:


> Why would you even give a crap about the law? You think some guy is boning your wife in your home and you're worried about the privacy law? Just get the information you need and then figure out how to prudently use it later. Few people, if any, get prosecuted under these laws in domestic cases and even fewer people bother to show up in court. I mean, would your wife really want that video actually entered into evidence? Don't over think it!
> 
> 
> 
> I can't say enough good things about the above post. Once you got what you want, destroy her.


Because he might feel a bit worried about ending up being prosecuted and having this potentially damage his attempts to gain custody, perhaps?


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## 3putt

MattMatt said:


> Because he might feel a bit worried about ending up being prosecuted and having this potentially damage his attempts to gain custody, perhaps?


Prosecuted for what, though? I'd like to see some DA try and explain his rationale for bringing charges against a man for installing hidden security cameras in his own home.

He has nothing to be concerned about.


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## unbelievable

ScrambledEggs said:


> Nebraska | Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press
> 
> So I am not an attorney, but I take from this that a camera in a bedroom could get you in trouble, but a camera in a living space, living room/Kitchen should be OK. Even through most people expect privacy in their entire home, unless it is your wife's habit to run around the house naked you should safe to record throughout your house.
> 
> Though if she sees the camera and is clever enough to run through the kitchen naked, then prosecute you..well then maybe you have a problem. Point the camera's in your personal space or outside (driveway/walkway/front door). You don't really need to see them grind to know what they are doing.


I think the operative word here is "knowingly", the mental state required for the offense to be committed in this case. A reasonable person would expect to film a person in a state of undress in the shower or bathroom. 

If a home owner, naturally fearful of home invasions, happened to put of surveillance video to cover the driveway, living room, main entrance, etc, and just happened to accidentally film his/her spouse permitting access to an affair partner or doing the nasty on the living room coffee table, I believe it would be a stretch for a prosecutor to obtain a verdict of "guilty" for unlawful intrusion from 12 reasonable people. Sadly, you have telegraphed your intention of capturing video of an incriminating and presumably sexual nature by asking about it on this forum and a search of your computer would likely produce that evidence. In the future, if you are interested in doing something that might be slightly shady it would be best to not talk about it with others. I certainly wouldn't suggest doing so over email, text messages, in writing, or recorded.


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## Chaparral

You can get all kinds of camafloged cameras at brick house. Clocks, smoke detectors etc.


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## Chaparral

Who did the other man turn out to be?


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## 3putt

unbelievable said:


> I think the operative word here is "knowingly", the mental state required for the offense to be committed in this case. A reasonable person would expect to film a person in a state of undress in the shower or bathroom.
> 
> If a home owner, naturally fearful of home invasions, happened to put of surveillance video to cover the driveway, living room, main entrance, etc, and just happened to accidentally film his/her spouse permitting access to an affair partner or doing the nasty on the living room coffee table, I believe it would be a stretch for a prosecutor to obtain a verdict of "guilty" for unlawful intrusion from 12 reasonable people. Sadly, you have telegraphed your intention of capturing video of an incriminating and presumably sexual nature by asking about it on this forum and a search of your computer would likely produce that evidence. In the future, if you are interested in doing something that might be slightly shady it would be best to not talk about it with others. I certainly wouldn't suggest doing so over email, text messages, in writing, or recorded.


I believe this is just too much thinking. These are all worst case scenarios, and how many times have we seen something like this actually play out.

ZERO.

I get the concern and caution, but let's not get too caught up into the off the wall 'what ifs'.


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## arbitrator

* Bananapeel: I may very well have an answer for you ~ but I first need to know how old your kids are!*


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## The Middleman

MattMatt said:


> Because he might feel a bit worried about ending up being prosecuted and having this potentially damage his attempts to gain custody, perhaps?


In the U.S., I'm not too concerned about this. Do you know how many people never show up in court for this kind of stuff? Arrests and examples are made out of very few. Fear of courts, custody and the reaction of the WS paralyze the BSs needlessly (especially BH's). Sometimes the BSs need to behave like the WSs to get any kind of justice. You know the old saying about nice guys.


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## gouge_away

https://www.leg.state.nv.us/nrs/nrs-200.html#NRS200Sec604


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## 3putt

gouge_away said:


> https://www.leg.state.nv.us/nrs/nrs-200.html#NRS200Sec604


Good Lord


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## The Middleman

ThePheonix said:


> The reality is the friends that mean anything to her already know and the family may find it shocking at first, but they don't really give a rats azz. The only thing they'd get upset about is if you were cheating on her. Two years out, you be remembered as "what's his name", our daughter's ex husband and the a-hole she should have never married.


Yeah, but the father and mother won't easily forget the video of their daughter bouncing up and down on some stranger's lap. It's still some powerful stuff.


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## The Middleman

gouge_away said:


> https://www.leg.state.nv.us/nrs/nrs-200.html#NRS200Sec604


If it were me? I still wouldn't give a sh!t.


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## 3putt

The Middleman said:


> If it were me? I still wouldn't give a sh!t.


And apparently all the security companies that install these cameras would agree with that.

It's simply not against the law. Otherwise, these companies wouldn't be in business.


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## alte Dame

3putt said:


> And apparently all the security companies that install these cameras would agree with that.
> 
> It's simply not against the law. Otherwise, these companies wouldn't be in business.


I have read many threads where the A was discovered because it was caught by a security camera. KenwoodKev (I think that was his name) found out about his WW because the OM's W caught the two of them on the home security cam footage. Another poster had security footage of his WW with the OM on a conference table in their office. I think Lone Shadow in the Private forum here caught his WW with his own father through a nanny cam.

That being said, if you videotape them, you can't unsee what you tape...


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## thatbpguy

One can place cameras in their own house for security reasons. If they catch something else, so what?

Were it me I'd make them aware of the VAR recording and hint around about a camera recording as a bluff. I think you'll end up with the kids if you play it right.


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## honcho

unbelievable said:


> I think the operative word here is "knowingly", the mental state required for the offense to be committed in this case. A reasonable person would expect to film a person in a state of undress in the shower or bathroom.
> 
> If a home owner, naturally fearful of home invasions, happened to put of surveillance video to cover the driveway, living room, main entrance, etc, and just happened to accidentally film his/her spouse permitting access to an affair partner or doing the nasty on the living room coffee table, I believe it would be a stretch for a prosecutor to obtain a verdict of "guilty" for unlawful intrusion from 12 reasonable people. Sadly, you have telegraphed your intention of capturing video of an incriminating and presumably sexual nature by asking about it on this forum and a search of your computer would likely produce that evidence. In the future, if you are interested in doing something that might be slightly shady it would be best to not talk about it with others. I certainly wouldn't suggest doing so over email, text messages, in writing, or recorded.


In today's day and age it would be a stretch even finding a prosecutor who would take the case to court. A person in theory could file a civil suit but are they really going to go to court and expose the affair to the world? Even my crazy stbx isn't that crazy haha.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gouge_away

honcho said:


> In today's day and age it would be a stretch even finding a prosecutor who would take the case to court. A person in theory could file a civil suit but are they really going to go to court and expose the affair to the world? Even my crazy stbx isn't that crazy haha.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The court of Nevada is restricted from disclosing captured video in public.


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## ScrambledEggs

3putt said:


> I believe this is just too much thinking. These are all worst case scenarios, and how many times have we seen something like this actually play out.
> 
> ZERO.
> 
> I get the concern and caution, but let's not get too caught up into the off the wall 'what ifs'.


But the point is he already has proof in a no fault state, so what help is any risk at all in this case?


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## arbitrator

* If you were to catch them feverishly boinking away on a "nanny cam," then I think you'd have it ~ but, then again, why on earth would you even want to look at it?*


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## GusPolinski

Read through LostCPA's thread...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/31959-false-recovery.html

He used some sort of hidden camera to catch his wife having sex w/ her OM (the neighbor) in the basement and then confronted her w/ the evidence after having her served w/ divorce papers while at work.

It seemed to work out for him, but it's worth nothing that the particulars of his situation differed from yours on several key points...

* He didn't try to use the video in the divorce.
* He'd previously caught her cheating (same OM), which meant that catching her again essentially revealed to him that he'd been in a false reconciliation.
* His wife was either drugging him w/ prescribed sleeping pills (Ambien, IIRC) or waiting until he'd dozed off after having taken them himself before letting OM into the house for their romps.
* His wife was remorseful (or, more likely, ashamed) enough that she didn't pursue any sort of legal recourse against him for having recorded her w/o her knowledge. Well, at least not that he mentioned in his thread. Not sure if your wife would go there.

And, pursuant to following the advice offered by unbelievable above, I hope like Hell you're deleting your browser history, search engine search history, etc on a pretty regular basis. Also, it wouldn't be the worst thing ever for you to start using Incognito/InPrivate/Private browsing mode w/ your browser.


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## ScrambledEggs

3putt said:


> Prosecuted for what, though? I'd like to see some DA try and explain his rationale for bringing charges against a man for installing hidden security cameras in his own home.
> 
> He has nothing to be concerned about.


Getting your wife on a cam having sex with a dude = little legal risk.

Threatening to send said video to all her friends and relatives if she does not make concessions in the divorce (custody or financial) = A clear crime and a big risk. People go to jail for this sort of construct all the time.


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## GusPolinski

ScrambledEggs said:


> Getting your wife on a cam having sex with a dude = little legal risk.
> 
> Threatening to send said video to all her friends and relatives if she does not make concessions in the divorce (custody or financial) = A clear crime and a big risk. People go to jail for this sort of construct all the time.


Agreed.


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## 3putt

ScrambledEggs said:


> Getting your wife on a cam having sex with a dude = little legal risk.
> 
> Threatening to send said video to all her friends and relatives if she does not make concessions in the divorce (custody or financial) = A clear crime and a big risk. People go to jail for this sort of construct all the time.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I ever suggested he use any video for blackmail purposes. Evidence, if needed, yes. Blackmail, no.

These scenarios are getting more outrageous by the minute.


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## arbitrator

3putt said:


> ScrambledEggs said:
> 
> 
> 
> Getting your wife on a cam having sex with a dude = little legal risk.
> 
> Threatening to send said video to all her friends and relatives if she does not make concessions in the divorce (custody or financial) = A clear crime and a big risk. People go to jail for this sort of construct all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I ever suggested he use any video for blackmail purposes. Evidence, if needed, yes. Blackmail, no.
> 
> These scenarios are getting more outrageous by the minute.
Click to expand...

* Maybe somebody is just erroneously equating it as monetary blackmail as opposed to the "non-monetary" variety, which the very last time that I looked, was seemingly, perfectly legal in trying to offer up into evidence in most any court of law!

Now if they want to make certain concessions in order to try to save themselves undue embarressment, to keep it from being introduced into evidence or testimony, then so be it!

After all, that's what legal counsel is for!*


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## Bananapeel

I couldn't sleep at all last night so I had plenty of time to think about it. I am going to skip the camera. I couldn't watch it and retain any self control, and it wouldn't benefit me legally in my state. 

I have also been thinking about what is in the best interest of the kids and making this any messier than it has to be could only negatively affect them. I have what I need and will confront her in a few days after I cool off a little more and figure out what I am going to say.


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## Bananapeel

manfromlamancha said:


> There seems to be some gap between your last thread and this one - previously you were convinced that she wasn't cheating. And now you have proof ? What happened in between to make you install cameras etc.?


When I scanned her cell phone there was no evidence of anything so I let it go but kept a look out and saw a few major red flags over the past week so I bought a VAR to prove to myself I was overreacting and that nothing was going on. I got her on it on the first use. :frown2:


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## Foolish Man

Bananapeel said:


> I couldn't sleep at all last night so I had plenty of time to think about it. I am going to skip the camera. I couldn't watch it and retain any self control, and it wouldn't benefit me legally in my state.
> 
> I have also been thinking about what is in the best interest of the kids and making this any messier than it has to be could only negatively affect them. I have what I need and will confront her in a few days after I cool off a little more and figure out what I am going to say.


Might I suggest you speak with a lawyer, file for D and have her served. Let her come to you with it. At the same time she is served, expose far and wide, hard and fast. All the cards on the table, everything out in the open and see what she has to say or more importantly what she is willing to do. From this position of strength you are best able to negotiate an equitable D settlement. Taking the time to think what you are going to say is an excellent step. Decide on ground rules for any negotiation (or possible R), lay them out without hesitation or flexibility. You don't know how much I wish I had proceeded this way.


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## Chaparral

ScrambledEggs said:


> Getting your wife on a cam having sex with a dude = little legal risk.
> 
> Threatening to send said video to all her friends and relatives if she does not make concessions in the divorce (custody or financial) = A clear crime and a big risk. People go to jail for this sort of construct all the time.


Its a crime if you broadcast it. All you have to do is tell her once and use that to get the divorce conditions you want. Negotiating and blackmail are two different things. Be smart and do not leave a trail.


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## Bananapeel

Foolish Man said:


> Might I suggest you speak with a lawyer, file for D and have her served. Let her come to you with it. At the same time she is served, expose far and wide, hard and fast. All the cards on the table, everything out in the open and see what she has to say or more importantly what she is willing to do. From this position of strength you are best able to negotiate an equitable D settlement. Taking the time to think what you are going to say is an excellent step. Decide on ground rules for any negotiation (or possible R), lay them out without hesitation or flexibility. You don't know how much I wish I had proceeded this way.


I spoke with a lawyer. The lawyer said to consider R first and get counseling since there were kids involved and to take some time to think things over and not act rashly while I am emotional. He said after that to proceed with D. 

I am far less worried about asset splits today than I was yesterday. My big concern is losing the house and having to move when she pulls her share of the equity out of it. I am worried that it will be hard on the kids, especially if they have to change schools. My parents would help me if I asked them, so that might not be as big of a deal as I think it is. 

I can't expose her like that. Too big of a risk to the kids. I'd be happy keeping the details private so we can have a better chance of working together through this mess in a way that is easiest for the kids. Either way, R or D, we both will have a hand in raising the kids and need to be able to be civil.


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## Bananapeel

Totally unrelated, but I just realized I now need to go in for STD testing. I don't know what's involved but don't imagine its pleasant. What an awful week.


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## Chaparral

Bananapeel said:


> When I scanned her cell phone there was no evidence of anything so I let it go but kept a look out and saw a few major red flags over the past week so I bought a VAR to prove to myself I was overreacting and that nothing was going on. I got her on it on the first use. :frown2:


So you found she was using a burner phone?

Could you figure out who the om was?

Here is something a former poster, Machiavelli wrote that may be helpful in the future.

*User, continue to read NMMNG first, then MMSL. As you've been advised, forget FLL for the forseeable future.

I agree with what everybody else has said, but I want to give you a quick overview of some things that people have either mentioned or alluded to that you seem to have skimmed over.

Your wife is approaching 30. Her Testosterone levels, and thus her sex drive, just suddenly spiking upward two or three years back, they are the highest they'll ever be in her life for about the next 5-10 years. She has no preparation or experience to dealing with her present level of libido. The body does this to ensure she's copulating like mad between now and infertility. Hold that thought. Savor it.

With her libido approaching its peak, your wife's slumbering sexuality is awakened by a predator (that's defined as any normal male unencumbered by religious or societal restrictions - its a male in the natural state). Her brain is now flooded with PEA chemistry, dopamine, norepinephrine, adrenaline, etc. whenever she is around this guy who she realizes at some point is trying to seduce her. At some point she's willing to take his c*ck into her body and it's off to the races. Everytime he unloads in her (they never use rubbers in affairs for this reason) mood elevating chemicals (oxytocin, estrone), emotional bonding chemicals (vasopressin), and libido elevators (testosterone) are absorbed from his semen, through the vaginal wall, or alternatively under the tongue, and into her blood stream. This, combined with the crack-like high from the other brain chemicals she gets from the act of sex with any man who is not her husband, ensure that your wife becomes besotted (intoxicated) with the idea of sex with the OM(s). It becomes an addiction and a craving.

Because of the chemical bonding with the OM, many wives end up abandoning their homes and children to get another injection of what they perceive to be more Alpha. Even though they may know the relationship is going nowhere, they desperately need one more injection of the "drug." This is also why previously thought saintly mothers will turn into total slvts once the start up an affair. They'll do anything, including all the kinky stuff you wanted to do that they abhorred you for suggesting. They're up for whatever the AP wants to do, threesomes, orgies, toys, anal. You name it. She has to make these memories with OM now, just in case she ends up back with you. Got that? Think about it. Savor it.

That craving is what you're up against and that's why it was a lie that they only did it once. They've fooked many times. They're into mind-blowing kinky sh!t that your wife will never tell you about. The father of her children can never know she can be so insatiable and out of control in the sack.

Your wife, at least since she started willingly going along with her seduction, has been finding or inventing fault with you in order to feed her Rationalization Hamster. The RH is the part of the female brain that reconciles the sexual antics orchestrated by the Limbic brain with whatever her previous beliefs were about sex and marriage and motherhood. Those are rational thoughts which arise in the Cortex. As you can see, a decent woman, who previously expressed devotion to home and hearth, but is now willing to sacrifice her own children and their future emotional well being on the altar of her boyfriend's c0ck, has some serious issues with cognitive dissonance. Therefore it's your fault. Her RH will run around in its wheel until it gins up enough bogus contempt and hatred for you to justify all the evil she's done and is preparing to do to you. The kids are just collateral damage, but it can't be helped.

What you have to do is break through all that sex goddess chemistry that's in her head. The Limbic System and her 30 yr old body agenda is in complete control. If the Cortex gets in the driver's seat, she's remorseful and makes reconciliatory sounds in your direction, but as soon as she sees OM, and especially when they fook or she blows him, the Limbic is back in charge. That's why your wife is swinging like a pendulum, but it's a pendulum that swings less and less in your direction and more in the direction of OM(s).

The only way to reach her Cortex is shock therapy. Namely the shock of you turning into a Man.

Here's immediate action:

Find yourself on the Male Sexual Hierarchy so you see your shortcomings. 

NMMNG, MMSL. Stay up and read.

Cancel the MC. Don't confront via a 3rd party. MC is useless in an affair. Save the money for the lawyer.

Demand her phone. Get it and download all the poop and d!ck photos he's sent her. Back up the data. What kind of phone does she have? If she doesn't hand it over, follow the previous instructions to put her stuff in garbage bags immediately. Deliver her and the bags to her mother's, not the OM's place. Dump it on her yard or front porch.

Get into her email, back it all up.

See that lawyer and find out what's going to happen. You're in Britain, right? Can't give you a clue on how that will go down, but start the divorce wheels turning right now. If she crawls on all fours and grabs your ankles, you can always stop the process.

DNA the youngest child. Tell your wife you're doing it. This sends a shot across her bows like nothing else.

Now, first thing after all that: 
See your doctor and ask him for a T panel workup. You probably have some issues there. Don't take no for an answer. At your age you should be at least 600 ng/ml. I bet yours are much lower. They will say you're in the normal range (300-1K), but if it's less than 600, you need to boost it.

Then change your look. New haircut, new clothes. The latest stuff for straight guys, whatever. 

Don't spend too much on new clothes, because you're going to join the gym. Tell them you don't know what you're doing, but you want to build max muscle fast. Get rid of all your bodyfat. No bread, beer, or sugar. Train three days a week. Your goal is to look like this guy:

Don't waste time on "cardio" unless there is a good looking woman next to an empty treadmill.

Bottom line, you have to use these actions to hit your wife with the emotional force of a panzer division just to cut through all the chemical noise in her brain and shock the cortex into the driver's seat, otherwise your wife cannot see reason. That's why guys can never make their wives UNDERSTAND that they really don't want to run away and be a cumdumpster for the Hell's Angels.

To save the marriage, you must burn it. Time's fast running out. Alpha up now. 
*


----------



## Bananapeel

I set out the VAR and got a recording of them having sex. It is clear enough that i know exactly who the OM is. Funny thing is that I am far more alpha than the OM. I just don't get what she was thinking. She's giving up a great life with me for nothing.


----------



## GusPolinski

Bananapeel said:


> I set out the VAR and got a recording of them having sex. It is clear enough that i know exactly who the OM is. Funny thing is that I am far more alpha than the OM. I just don't get what she was thinking.


In your house?


----------



## alte Dame

I am so sorry that you are going through this. This is awful for you.

Please take care of yourself - try to eat, drink plenty of water. When you go to the doctor for the STD tests, talk to him/her about your stress levels as well.

The advice to take some time is usually good, in my opinion, but it's not very doable when you've heard the betrayal the way you have. Your kids will be OK if you divorce. They really will be. In this case, doing what is best for them is also what is best for you & that is to file and start to get this behind you.


----------



## arbitrator

Chaparral said:


> Bananapeel said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I scanned her cell phone there was no evidence of anything so I let it go but kept a look out and saw a few major red flags over the past week so I bought a VAR to prove to myself I was overreacting and that nothing was going on. I got her on it on the first use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you found she was using a burner phone?
> 
> Could you figure out who the om was?
> 
> Here is something a former poster, Machiavelli wrote that may be helpful in the future.
> 
> *User, continue to read NMMNG first, then MMSL. As you've been advised, forget FLL for the forseeable future.
> 
> I agree with what everybody else has said, but I want to give you a quick overview of some things that people have either mentioned or alluded to that you seem to have skimmed over.
> 
> Your wife is approaching 30. Her Testosterone levels, and thus her sex drive, just suddenly spiking upward two or three years back, they are the highest they'll ever be in her life for about the next 5-10 years. She has no preparation or experience to dealing with her present level of libido. The body does this to ensure she's copulating like mad between now and infertility. Hold that thought. Savor it.
> 
> With her libido approaching its peak, your wife's slumbering sexuality is awakened by a predator (that's defined as any normal male unencumbered by religious or societal restrictions - its a male in the natural state). Her brain is now flooded with PEA chemistry, dopamine, norepinephrine, adrenaline, etc. whenever she is around this guy who she realizes at some point is trying to seduce her. At some point she's willing to take his c*ck into her body and it's off to the races. Everytime he unloads in her (they never use rubbers in affairs for this reason) mood elevating chemicals (oxytocin, estrone), emotional bonding chemicals (vasopressin), and libido elevators (testosterone) are absorbed from his semen, through the vaginal wall, or alternatively under the tongue, and into her blood stream. This, combined with the crack-like high from the other brain chemicals she gets from the act of sex with any man who is not her husband, ensure that your wife becomes besotted (intoxicated) with the idea of sex with the OM(s). It becomes an addiction and a craving.
> 
> Because of the chemical bonding with the OM, many wives end up abandoning their homes and children to get another injection of what they perceive to be more Alpha. Even though they may know the relationship is going nowhere, they desperately need one more injection of the "drug." This is also why previously thought saintly mothers will turn into total slvts once the start up an affair. They'll do anything, including all the kinky stuff you wanted to do that they abhorred you for suggesting. They're up for whatever the AP wants to do, threesomes, orgies, toys, anal. You name it. She has to make these memories with OM now, just in case she ends up back with you. Got that? Think about it. Savor it.
> 
> That craving is what you're up against and that's why it was a lie that they only did it once. They've fooked many times. They're into mind-blowing kinky sh!t that your wife will never tell you about. The father of her children can never know she can be so insatiable and out of control in the sack.
> 
> Your wife, at least since she started willingly going along with her seduction, has been finding or inventing fault with you in order to feed her Rationalization Hamster. The RH is the part of the female brain that reconciles the sexual antics orchestrated by the Limbic brain with whatever her previous beliefs were about sex and marriage and motherhood. Those are rational thoughts which arise in the Cortex. As you can see, a decent woman, who previously expressed devotion to home and hearth, but is now willing to sacrifice her own children and their future emotional well being on the altar of her boyfriend's c0ck, has some serious issues with cognitive dissonance. Therefore it's your fault. Her RH will run around in its wheel until it gins up enough bogus contempt and hatred for you to justify all the evil she's done and is preparing to do to you. The kids are just collateral damage, but it can't be helped.
> 
> What you have to do is break through all that sex goddess chemistry that's in her head. The Limbic System and her 30 yr old body agenda is in complete control. If the Cortex gets in the driver's seat, she's remorseful and makes reconciliatory sounds in your direction, but as soon as she sees OM, and especially when they fook or she blows him, the Limbic is back in charge. That's why your wife is swinging like a pendulum, but it's a pendulum that swings less and less in your direction and more in the direction of OM(s).
> 
> The only way to reach her Cortex is shock therapy. Namely the shock of you turning into a Man.
> 
> Here's immediate action:
> 
> Find yourself on the Male Sexual Hierarchy so you see your shortcomings.
> 
> NMMNG, MMSL. Stay up and read.
> 
> Cancel the MC. Don't confront via a 3rd party. MC is useless in an affair. Save the money for the lawyer.
> 
> Demand her phone. Get it and download all the poop and d!ck photos he's sent her. Back up the data. What kind of phone does she have? If she doesn't hand it over, follow the previous instructions to put her stuff in garbage bags immediately. Deliver her and the bags to her mother's, not the OM's place. Dump it on her yard or front porch.
> 
> Get into her email, back it all up.
> 
> See that lawyer and find out what's going to happen. You're in Britain, right? Can't give you a clue on how that will go down, but start the divorce wheels turning right now. If she crawls on all fours and grabs your ankles, you can always stop the process.
> 
> DNA the youngest child. Tell your wife you're doing it. This sends a shot across her bows like nothing else.
> 
> Now, first thing after all that:
> See your doctor and ask him for a T panel workup. You probably have some issues there. Don't take no for an answer. At your age you should be at least 600 ng/ml. I bet yours are much lower. They will say you're in the normal range (300-1K), but if it's less than 600, you need to boost it.
> 
> Then change your look. New haircut, new clothes. The latest stuff for straight guys, whatever.
> 
> Don't spend too much on new clothes, because you're going to join the gym. Tell them you don't know what you're doing, but you want to build max muscle fast. Get rid of all your bodyfat. No bread, beer, or sugar. Train three days a week. Your goal is to look like this guy:
> 
> Don't waste time on "cardio" unless there is a good looking woman next to an empty treadmill.
> 
> Bottom line, you have to use these actions to hit your wife with the emotional force of a panzer division just to cut through all the chemical noise in her brain and shock the cortex into the driver's seat, otherwise your wife cannot see reason. That's why guys can never make their wives UNDERSTAND that they really don't want to run away and be a cumdumpster for the Hell's Angels.
> 
> To save the marriage, you must burn it. Time's fast running out. Alpha up now.
> *
Click to expand...

* Damn, Chap! Why don't you tell us how you feel?

That's simply great information there!*


----------



## harrybrown

Is the OM married?

If yes, be sure to let his wife know.

Sorry for your pain. 

If your wife is not remorseful and stops, there is no R.

Might as well let her know and start the 180 for yourself.


----------



## ScrambledEggs

3putt said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I ever suggested he use any video for blackmail purposes. Evidence, if needed, yes. Blackmail, no.
> 
> These scenarios are getting more outrageous by the minute.


Since the OP state is no fault, the only way he can monetarily or get custodial benefit from such a video is blackmail. It seemed to be what he was saying and if you look back on my response to it was with the proper nuance. The post you are replying to here was to clarify where I saw the risk.


----------



## ScrambledEggs

Chaparral said:


> Its a crime if you broadcast it. All you have to do is tell her once and use that to get the divorce conditions you want. Negotiating and blackmail are two different things. Be smart and do not leave a trail.


No, blackmail is always a crime and actually always immoral. Getting caught is a different matter. I was not born yesterday, so sure you can hedge your risk by being fast and loose with it.

Neither of us are attorney's, at least I am not, and we are dancing in legal advice here. While I am consoling caution, you are not, which frankly I think is appropriate and irresponsible. The OP is angry and emotional right now. The last thing he needs is a to make a big legal mistake at the start of all this. A sex tape does not help anyone here.

BTW, revenge porn is actually outright illegal in many states now, though Nebraska has yet to pass a specific law on it. Maybe if the OP follows this line he can be immortalized by legal and legislative precedent.


----------



## ConanHub

Whatever your decision, I think you should have her served. You don't have to go through with it.

Your cheating wife needs a kick in her dirty ass. It will be good for her to wake the hell up.

Have a couple of pictures of your kids in her face and coldly ask her how much more she loved getting her ass pumped by her married piece of shyt than she loved her own children.

When you do this, wake her up hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedDad

Bananapeel said:


> I just don't get what she was thinking. She's giving up a great life with me for nothing.


She THOUGHT she could cuckold you and that she would get away with it. Prove her wrong.

Just know you're not alone. I got to listen to a VAR session myself. Don't go the camera route. You got enough evidence. It will fvck with your head for the rest of your life.

Sorry man. I hope you follow through and get rid of this broken woman. You DESERVE better.


----------



## Bananapeel

Thanks for all the advice. I have decided not to video tape and to approach it discretely with her in a couple of days. Since I am in a no fault state, it really doesn't matter what the cause was and no matter how much I want to hurt her over this it isn't worth the potential damage to the kids.


----------



## 3putt

ScrambledEggs said:


> Since the OP state is no fault, the only way he can monetarily or get custodial benefit from such a video is blackmail. It seemed to be what he was saying and if you look back on my response to it was with the proper nuance. The post you are replying to here was to clarify where I saw the risk.


You had no more idea what he had in mind with a video than I did. You were just making assumptions. For all we knew at the time he may have felt that the VAR was insufficient enough proof for family and friends and wanted as much irrefutable proof as possible. But that would be an assumption as well.

It's a moot point now, but who cares what he wanted it for. That's his business. He asked about the legality of installing a video in his home and we told him. But, if his intentions were to use a video for the purpose of blackmail, which we all know is illegal, then I seriously doubt he would've given a damn about the legality of video taping his own home in the first place. Common sense should dictate that.


----------



## manfromlamancha

OP, just to be clear - is your wife sleeping with this [email protected] in your home ? your bed ?


----------



## ScrambledEggs

3putt said:


> You had no more idea what he had in mind with a video than I did. .



Well The OP said:



> I just wondered if having images would be leverage I could use when negotiating


So apparently I did have an idea given the no fault state. But really what are we debating here and what is your point? My 'wrongness'?

The OP asked for legal perspectives from layman on the law with respect to using camera footage in negotiated his divorce and I gave it. Agree or disagree, his use of the speculative footage was exactly the topic at hand.


----------



## Bananapeel

manfromlamancha said:


> OP, just to be clear - is your wife sleeping with this [email protected] in your home ? your bed ?


In my home


----------



## GusPolinski

manfromlamancha said:


> OP, just to be clear - is your wife sleeping with this [email protected] in your home ? your bed ?





Bananapeel said:


> In my home


Damn. Sorry man.


----------



## sidney2718

Foolish Man said:


> Might I suggest you speak with a lawyer, file for D and have her served. Let her come to you with it. At the same time she is served, expose far and wide, hard and fast. All the cards on the table, everything out in the open and see what she has to say or more importantly what she is willing to do. From this position of strength you are best able to negotiate an equitable D settlement. Taking the time to think what you are going to say is an excellent step. Decide on ground rules for any negotiation (or possible R), lay them out without hesitation or flexibility. You don't know how much I wish I had proceeded this way.


A word of caution. Once the OP exposes widely and deeply, he has no more power. He's used it all. She's as destroyed as she is going to get.

In my opinion a better approach is to use the *threat* of exposure to get what you want.


----------



## 3putt

ScrambledEggs said:


> Well The OP said:
> 
> 
> 
> So apparently I did have an idea given the no fault state. But really what are we debating here and what is your point? My 'wrongness'?
> 
> The OP asked for legal perspectives from layman on the law with respect to using camera footage in negotiated his divorce and I gave it. Agree or disagree, his use of the speculative footage was exactly the topic at hand.


I see your point, but leverage doesn't even come close to equaling blackmail. Shoot, most women would offer just about anything to not have a video like that surface, regardless of whether or not it was asked for. I guess if we were to get really picky about things we could call the threat of exposure blackmail. But it's done all the time.

Sorry you had to hear that crap, OP. I can't imagine having to listen to a recording of something like that happening in my own bed. Brutal.


----------



## Chaparral

My first move would be telling her OM had better never set foot in my house again.

Since you have your proof and you are in a no fault state I see no need in holding back now.

Trust me, we have seen other men hold on to the info and it just makes things worse. Its better to get it off your chest and get it over with. Guys that have held back, to a man, wish they had stopped this crap as soon as possible.


----------



## Chaparral

Quite frankly, I would pack her a few garbage bags and tell her to go to other man's house. That's the best way to break it to her, shock and awe.


----------



## arbitrator

* Call it blackmail, call it extortion, just call it whatever you want to! But once the photos, videos, or audio tapes find their way to the lawyers suites, then it is solely referred to as "leverage!" 

The barristers will bargain, plead, beg, and cajole to either have them entered into evidence or from even being able to see the light of day, greatly provided which client that they find themselves representing!

The bottom line is that it's all basically blackmail! And if the adulterer themselves actually makes a confession to the sordid deed, with the lone exception of a criminal trial, that's usually enough for the presiding civil court judge not to allow those items into evidence, because any confession of the adulterer would override, thus rendering the visual evidence as moot!

The connotational definition of blackmail itself would only make it a criminal act if the actor himself uses it to procure money, position of power, or some other perceived entitlement, greatly in exchange for making its presence or silence moot!*


----------



## Bananapeel

Chaparral said:


> My first move would be telling her OM had better never set foot in my house again.
> 
> .


That's the plan right after I talk with my wife. Dealing with him is lower on the priority list since he has no value to me. But he will be addressed.


----------



## OldWolf57

As someone who has spent a lot of time in front of judges, I say tape an let her know she has a web site ready to go.
Hell even if you don't tape, tell her you did, and as proof, mention some of the things they said while together. She won't know if you'er lying.
It's her word against your's, and how badly she don't want her family and friends to know.

We who have been here for YEARS have NEVER seen a case of arrest, or even charges being filed against a BS using that threat.

Any woman that do that in a husband's house and bed deserve to be taken down hard.

Yes there are kids involved, that's why you hit hard and fast, to contain the damage.

From my reading she cares a GREAT deal about friends and family image of her, so she is not going to go running to family if she thinks you have vids.

You said R or D, and this is something you really need to decide on. Also I don't agree with the advice of having to much leverage the lawyer gave, as her not considering R.
If she is truly remorseful and want R, that will not deter her.
I can see an unremorseful ws using that, but not a truly remorseful 1.

Either way it go, I'm glad you you will not go years with a nagging in your guts.

Sorry man.


----------



## ThePheonix

Claim the OM planted the spy cam, recorded the activities, and mailed a DVD to you at your office. Mail it to yourself from a post office in his neighborhood. :wink2:


----------



## Chaparral

A video in your own home from a security camera could be used in a civil suit against the om. Some states allow alienation of affection lawsuits. We've been told all states allow intentional infliction of emotional distress lawsuits. I would think video proof would make that lawsuit a slam dunk. He would no doubt settle.


----------



## the guy

So whats your confrontation plan?

Are you prepared for all the bull shyt you are about to hear?

I know you have kids But you must at least ask her to leave and if she chooses to do so let her know she is not welcome back. This is a stonge statement on your part in showing her you are confident enough to let her go.

Even if she refuses to leave ...again it's a huge statement that you make by asking her to leave the home.

What kind of response do you expect?


----------



## the guy

Why do you think your old lady has such a huge amount of hate for you to phuck around in the marital bed?

When a wayward pulls this kind of shyt they often have a huge amount off resentment and disrespect to want to hurt you by taking there affair into the marital home.

As odd as it may sound, even some wayward still have some degree of "respect/love" to go else were to screw their affair partner...even if they end up in the back set of a car.

My point is be careful...it sounds like a huge degree of hatred on her part so protect your self when you do confront. 

Have the VAR on you when you do confront!


----------



## the guy

Folks, this is now moved past camera laws....lets help OP have a safe and effective confrontation.

Something tells me when the affair end up in the marital bed room...not just the home...but the master bedroom...this wayward is extremely lost and out of control.

It's time to make a plan and work the plan.


----------



## the guy

If it was me I would expose the A to OMW, and let her confront your wife and OM.

But it sounds like you are dumbing the WW so plan on what works best for the D.

I may have missed it ...is the OM married?


----------



## the guy

Another thing is don't reveal your source....confront her... listen to her bull crap and the last thing you need to say is " you know I know your phucking so and so"!

Again the 1st thing you say is " I would like you to move out and take our bed with you"!

Everything in between is just her bull crap that will fill up a very painful conversation and having to listen to some one who is dead to you lie to your face.


----------



## the guy

Here"s an idea..sue the POSOM for allienation of affection and when your old lady asks why you are suing him you can then tell her "cuz he is phucking my wife"!


----------



## manfromlamancha

Not that it matters a great deal, but when I asked "in your home?" And then "in your bed", the OP replied "in my home". So not sure if it was in his bed - but if not in your bed, then where in your home and how did you know to plant a VAR there?


----------



## gouge_away

You have every right to allow OM's wife to know about the video, I think that alone would not only get the point across, but she has a right to know what her husband is doing in your house. This will definitely get to her, and its no longer a matter of you alone, it becomes a matter of what you or the OM's wife might do.

Do not offer or give OM's BS copies, however give her the opportunity to listen or view, and let her know you and her are feeling the same emotions right now so she doesn't feel totally alone and humiliated.


----------



## ThePheonix

the guy said:


> Here"s an idea..sue the POSOM for allienation of affection!


Not a bad idea. I'm always against going after the OM especially if letting the wayward old lady off the hook, but when a man comes to your house, its about as low down as you can get. His wife will be a ballistic missile on steroids when she finds he is not only screwing around, but putting her assets and resources in the hands of the court.

In regard to, "_*they often have a huge amount off resentment and disrespect to want to hurt you by taking there affair into the marital home"*._, oftentimes women who have lost romantic interest and respect for their husbands feel so much contempt and detest for being tied to him, they invite such activity as revenge of sorts.


----------



## gouge_away

Unrelated Note: I see Nebraska adopted the Castle Doctrine.


----------



## arbitrator

ThePheonix said:


> the guy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here"s an idea..sue the POSOM for allienation of affection!
> 
> 
> 
> Not a bad idea. I'm always against going after the OM especially if letting the wayward old lady off the hook, but when a man comes to your house, its about as low down as you can get. His wife will be a ballistic missile on steroids when she finds he is not only screwing around, but putting her assets and resources in the hands of the court.
Click to expand...

* Totally in agreement with you, Phoenix!

IMHO, a man who enters another man's abode and then summarily takes liberties with that man's wife, more especially in their marital bed, is preeminently lower than a two-bit prowler or a grave robber!

And the BS's old lady who is inviting him in to such a situation is 100 times lower!

And actually, it goes the very same way if the shoe is conversely on the other foot!

Just saying!*


----------



## happyman64

bananapeel

You keep saying you want your emotions to calm down before you confront but in all honesty you seem pretty calm to me.

Or maybe in shock.

I think a little anger is ok. 

So you caught your wife having sex with the OM. Now you know the truth and her lies are all deceit on her part.

Do you know if you prefer R or D?
Do you know what direction your wayward W wants to go in? R or D?

I think a confrontation is necessary but you deal with the OM at the same time.

Deliver a copy of the recording to his W. Let her deal with him. Let her know her husband is no longer allowed in your home.

At the same time confront your wife. Remain calm. Play the recording for her but make sure you have it safely backed up somewhere.

Then tell your wife you want the truth. All of it. Now. You should record that conversation if she has it with you at that moment in time.

Then tell her that you want to discuss the future of your marriage over the weekend without any lies.

For the sake of your children.

Try that approach.

HM


----------



## Bananapeel

I'm outwardly calm but an emotional wreck right now. She's meeting me in a private place in a few hours so we can talk.


----------



## Morcoll

BP-- are you going straight divorce at this point?


----------



## Bananapeel

At this point all I am going to do is talk with her. I just need this to be out in the open and then I'll go from there.


----------



## GusPolinski

I'd advise you to (a) NOT tell her about the recording(s) and (b) to back up the recording(s) in at least a couple of different places out in the Cloud (i.e. Carbonite, Dropbox, Google Drive, SugarSync, etc).


----------



## OldWolf57

oh boy, here comes the I'm sorry and it was the 1st time BS, and all the other blame shifting BS.

Dude, the 1st words out of your mouth should be " I'm d/ing your skanky butt for f#cking whathisname in MY HOUSE "!!! " that shows the lower form of disrespect to your kids and myself, and I want EVERYBODY to know what a sl#t you are".

Those are the words that will cut thru a lot of BS right off the bat. And if she called you a lier, jsut say wait until everyone see the vid I got and listen to the tape.

Shock and awe before she even get started. And be sure to throw in " if you wanted a D all you had to do was ask, but no, you had to sh#t where your kids eat and sleep".

That will get her attention.

But whatever your plan, good luck, and PLEASE don't do something crazy.


----------



## OldWolf57

Gus, love you man, but with her, I would want her to know I got her GOOD. That way she can't run and start telling lies.


----------



## GusPolinski

OldWolf57 said:


> Gus, love you man, but with her, I would want her to know I got her GOOD. That way she can't run and start telling lies.


I agree, but I still wouldn't mention the recording. I might make mention of some of what was said before, during, and/or after the sex (even going so far as to quote it verbatim), but I wouldn't make any direct reference to the recording itself. I might also try to nail her w/ specifics w/ respect to which specific sex acts were performed, where it happened, etc.


----------



## arbitrator

GusPolinski said:


> OldWolf57 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gus, love you man, but with her, I would want her to know I got her GOOD. That way she can't run and start telling lies.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, but I still wouldn't mention the recording. I might make mention of some of what was said before, during, and/or after the sex (even going so far as to quote it verbatim), but I wouldn't make any direct reference to the recording itself. I might also try to nail her w/ specifics w/ respect to which specific sex acts were performed, where it happened, etc.
Click to expand...

* Divulge only those incriminating passages of what was audible to you on the audiotape itself, but make absolutely no mention of the tape. That way, she doesn't have the first damned clue if you were the party who taped her or if she had been nabbed on audiotape by a PI!

From that standpoint, just keep her cheating, skanky a$$ guessing and in limbo!*


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening
Be careful about sliding into blackmail - a felony in some jurisdictions. 

Right now you are in the right, she is in the wrong - don't change that. 

Do you know if details of her infidelity will even affect custody in your location?




Bananapeel said:


> I just wondered if having images would be leverage I could use when negotiating. I don't want her to take my kids and she probably wouldn't want her friends and family to know what she's done. That was why I wanted pictures.
> 
> I just spoke with a counselor and he said never let her know what proof I have because she will never reconciliate if I have too much power over her. I don't want to even consider reconciliation at this point, but right now I am very very angry. If we didn't have kids this would be a lot easier. I'm going to take a few breaths and go for a walk.


----------



## happyman64

How about just listening to her. 

If you want the truth then tell her what you know as if you were hiding in the closet. 

Cool and calm wins the day. 

If she continues to lie then get up and leave.


----------



## gouge_away

I would confront OMs old lady first.

See how she wants to proceed. You both are in the BS position, she deserves to know when to duck the sh!t as it hits the fan.

She might even be relieved you are taking a lead on this, she is a vulnerable BS too.


----------



## the guy

At the end of the day folks....OP is trying his best to do the damage control that is best for his family....we all know that is impossible!

His old lady made sure of that by having an affair....now OP is trying to control something he has no control over....his old lady destroyed the family unit and he continues to soften the blow for something he didn't even destroy.

I mean how to you make it any better, how do you put lib stick on a pig, how to you find a sliver of green in a grey wasteland that someone else created?

IDK, maybe pick up whats left that is good and get the phuck away from the person that created this disaster and start to rebuild with out that toxic person?

YOU JUST CAN'T NICE YOUR WAY OUT OF CRAP LIKE THIS!

That's my $0.02


----------



## roostr

I'm posting without reading the entire thread, but all I can say is I never heard of anyone getting arrested for recording their own house. Even so, do you really think the charges would stick in a court of law? I say do what ever you need to do and don't worry about if there is a law against it. If the unlikely event that you had to explain to a judge why you did it and what the results were I don't think you will be prosecuted at all.


----------



## ThePheonix

After their meeting, I'm interested in hearing how she convinces Bananapeel that letting her off the hook is all his idea. :wink2:


----------



## arbitrator

roostr said:


> I'm posting without reading the entire thread, but all I can say is I never heard of anyone getting arrested for recording their own house. Even so, do you really think the charges would stick in a court of law? I say do what ever you need to do and don't worry about if there is a law against it. * If the unlikely event that you had to explain to a judge why you did it and what the results were I don't think you will be prosecuted at all.*


*... all with the more likely potential that this same judge would have no real problems, to speak of, in admitting those very same audio/videotapes, as such, into evidence, greatly provided that the WS attorney wasn't some kind of a "legal self-masochist" in the courtroom and that he really wanted to take it that far!

After all, the two lawyers can definitely bargain, with the one with the evidence in hand being the one to exercise the "leverage!"*


----------



## Chaparral

ThePheonix said:


> After their meeting, I'm interested in hearing how she convinces Bananapeel that letting her off the hook is all his idea. :wink2:


 I tried to go back and figure out when she started up with the OM. Unfortunately, Bananapeel deleted his first post. It was at least August but probably well before that when the redflags started waving.

In another post they discussed divorce over their sudden marital problems. She decided it that was premature and didn't want to do anything that drastic yet.

I think that pretty much proves she already knew the Posom was only in it for the sex. she may have only been in it for the sex too. I'm going to be surprised if she doesn't throw the Posom under the bus.

This reminds me of two other threads. The one where the wife was banging an a$$ for some bdsm and another where the wife started something and then was blackmailed into keeping it going. Just guessing and probably totally wrong again.:surprise:


----------



## Bananapeel

OK, here's the update. I confronted her on Friday and she lied and denied until I told her how I found out then she admitted to the whole thing. She said she is in love with the OM and he is in love with her. I then went to the OM's wife and told her, and she was grateful. OM's wife confronted her husband and he said he wasn't in love with my wife and called her to end the relationship. 

So where to go from here. We have had several open/honest conversations (finally) and I am satisfied with the info I got. We are going to work in the best interest of our children and meet with a counselor to discuss how and when to tell them about D. My wife wondered if we could R, but I told her I don't have the choice to even consider R since she is in love with someone else. We agreed to make no major decisions for a few weeks, until our emotions subside and then we can work on the D. I'm getting attorney recommendations from a friend in a few days. I'm sure my wife wants to work past this from the point of insecurity, since she'll have neither relationship. But that isn't enough to have a marriage. 

The last 12 hours have absolutely sucked. Worst time in my life.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

Wow. So sorry, Banana . You're so strong. I know it must absolutely suck, though . Did the OM's wife have any clue?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I like how you handled the situation and are going forward. The like is not for the outcome.


----------



## 3putt

So, she sacrificed everything, her marriage/family/morals/integrity/vows, to be nothing more than another man's side piece of a$$.

How nice. 

Feeling bad for you, partner. Really bad.


----------



## OldWolf57

BP she looking at the old chevy from insecurity like you say.

Will say this, do what's best for you, as well as for the kids. To often BS R for the kids, but don't touch the issues that allowed her to think it was OK to have an affair.
In your case, you know from us she is going to start to realize she was just a roll to him, and will pull out all stops to continue in the marriage. But you know she can live two lives and do it with ease.


----------



## Lostinthought61

i am shocked that she had the audacity to expect you to accept her even though she is in love with the OM...she much think you are willing to be Plan B and be happy with that...until the next guy that comes along.....i am so sorry this sucks...but at least she can not take away your manhood.


----------



## Bananapeel

SecondTime'Round said:


> Wow. So sorry, Banana . You're so strong. I know it must absolutely suck, though . Did the OM's wife have any clue?


She suspected something was up.


----------



## OldWolf57

Will the next one fall in love with her and she leave ? Lots of work she has to do man if she is willing.
Getting pass her living and sleeping next to you while loving another man, long road dude.


----------



## Bananapeel

3putt said:


> So, she sacrificed everything, her marriage/family/morals/integrity/vows, to be nothing more than another man's side piece of a$$.
> 
> .


Yup and she is beginning to realize it. She still thinks/hopes he loves her, though.


----------



## Bananapeel

Xenote said:


> i am shocked that she had the audacity to expect you to accept her even though she is in love with the OM...she much think you are willing to be Plan B and be happy with that...until the next guy that comes along.....i am so sorry this sucks...but at least she can not take away your manhood.


I feel exactly the same. Yesterday I told her "I don't do second place".


----------



## 3putt

Bananapeel said:


> Yup and she is beginning to realize it. She still thinks/hopes he loves her, though.


Give it 48 hours. You'll see the definition of 'meltdown' rewritten for you when it fully dawns on her what she has done and what it has cost her.


----------



## honcho

Bananapeel said:


> OK, here's the update. I confronted her on Friday and she lied and denied until I told her how I found out then she admitted to the whole thing. She said she is in love with the OM and he is in love with her. I then went to the OM's wife and told her, and she was grateful. OM's wife confronted her husband and he said he wasn't in love with my wife and called her to end the relationship.
> 
> So where to go from here. We have had several open/honest conversations (finally) and I am satisfied with the info I got. We are going to work in the best interest of our children and meet with a counselor to discuss how and when to tell them about D. My wife wondered if we could R, but I told her I don't have the choice to even consider R since she is in love with someone else. We agreed to make no major decisions for a few weeks, until our emotions subside and then we can work on the D. I'm getting attorney recommendations from a friend in a few days. I'm sure my wife wants to work past this from the point of insecurity, since she'll have neither relationship. But that isn't enough to have a marriage.
> 
> The last 12 hours have absolutely sucked. Worst time in my life.


I am so sorry you have had to endure this. The next few days will most likely be weird and filled with tension. Neither of you will really know what to do or say as both of you process this. 

Watch her actions. She will most likely play nice for now. Her "perfect" world has blown up. Its gonna take her a while to realize the "soulmate" was just a dreamland. Keep the stance of getting a D. She needs to see the consequence of her actions. 

Take time to deal with your own hurt. Its easy to bury it for now focusing on kids etc but you need to take time for yourself in order to heal yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

Bananapeel said:


> OK, here's the update. I confronted her on Friday and she lied and denied until I told her how I found out then she admitted to the whole thing. She said she is in love with the OM and he is in love with her. I then went to the OM's wife and told her, and she was grateful. OM's wife confronted her husband and he said he wasn't in love with my wife and called her to end the relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> So where to go from here. We have had several open/honest conversations (finally) and I am satisfied with the info I got. We are going to work in the best interest of our children and meet with a counselor to discuss how and when to tell them about D. My wife wondered if we could R, but I told her I don't have the choice to even consider R since she is in love with someone else. We agreed to make no major decisions for a few weeks, until our emotions subside and then we can work on the D. I'm getting attorney recommendations from a friend in a few days. I'm sure my wife wants to work past this from the point of insecurity, since she'll have neither relationship. But that isn't enough to have a marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> The last 12 hours have absolutely sucked. Worst time in my life.



It kinda sucks that OM couldn't wait to dump her until after you'd already divorced, but oh well.

Still, I'd divorce either way. Because you're right... it's just not enough. Not even close.

Sorry man.


----------



## ScrambledEggs

Bananapeel said:


> OK, here's the update. I confronted her on Friday and she lied and denied until I told her how I found out then she admitted to the whole thing. She said she is in love with the OM and he is in love with her. I then went to the OM's wife and told her, and she was grateful. OM's wife confronted her husband and he said he wasn't in love with my wife and called her to end the relationship.
> 
> So where to go from here. We have had several open/honest conversations (finally) and I am satisfied with the info I got. We are going to work in the best interest of our children and meet with a counselor to discuss how and when to tell them about D. My wife wondered if we could R, but I told her I don't have the choice to even consider R since she is in love with someone else. We agreed to make no major decisions for a few weeks, until our emotions subside and then we can work on the D. I'm getting attorney recommendations from a friend in a few days. I'm sure my wife wants to work past this from the point of insecurity, since she'll have neither relationship. But that isn't enough to have a marriage.
> 
> The last 12 hours have absolutely sucked. Worst time in my life.



Well done. This is how I should have handled my own ****.


----------



## Chaparral

Well, she thought it was love............until she figured out all he told her were lies to get what he wanted. Fools paradise is over and done.

Were these folks friends of you both?


----------



## the guy

Hang in there man, the kids will need you more then ever as your old lady goes through the withdrawals.


----------



## the guy

This is still very fresh.

Anything can happen and things do change.

Once you get through the weekend and your wife has a few days to collect her self ...a long with the OM...you will find a completely different situation then you were in on Fri. By next Fri. they could completely hate each other or move in together.

My point here is steady your self and expect the unexpecting

There are a lot of variables that can change the course of how things finalize.

The only thing constant in life is change. so make a plan and work the plan.


For what its worth.... they stay in contact, things settle down, they start up were they left off, and by next year both are no longer with their betrayed spouses or with each other. and the only contact is how they are managing their custody with their kids.

I pray I am wrong ....for the young ones that got caught up in this mess!


----------



## the guy

One more thing, You deserve good things ...so repeat this to your self every time those dark thoughts enter your mind .

Repeat this over and over "I deserve good things"

This montra got me through some tough shyt with my old lady.

Don't ever let this crap define you.....hold your head up a be successful.

Be the bad @ss mother phucker your kids can count on and never let any one see you cry......go in the garage like the rest of us and cry your eyes out.

((((bananapeel))))

Now is that gay or what!


----------



## ConanHub

A real man that loved her would have kept his fvcking pants on as banging her while she was married would only degrade her and hurt her children.

Real men love children. The only thing this POS loved was treating a wife and mother like a very cheap prostitute.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## the guy

ConanHub said:


> A real man that loved her would have kept his fvcking pants on as banging her while she was married would only degrade her and hurt her children.
> 
> Real men love children. The only thing this POS loved was treating a wife and mother like a very cheap prostitute.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


TAM history dictates that the OMW will try but it won't work, by Wed. the OM will contact WW and OM will use his kids as an excuse to stay in the marriage and WW will except that.

The affair starts back up but they try to go under ground, it's uncovered again and the WW and OM say phuck it get together and by the 4th of July they both realize the relationship was based on lies and when it is no longer exciting and the taboo thrill is gone they both have nothing for each other and go off and find someone new.

I hope I am wrong and once this affair is done both can focus on their kids instead of going out to bars to find a new lay.


Some folks can over come and be a better parent even with out their betrayed spouse....some will go further over the deep end and except their fate as being losers, cheats, and worthless.

And in 30-40 years from now ...be found by the postman, dead ,surrounded by cats and cat boo, a lone, in a run down trailer.


----------



## GusPolinski

BTW, be prepared to discover that the affair has gone underground. When it happens, her general demeanor will shift from weepy shame to total BSC shrew. Read up on the script, and be prepared for it when it hits.

And keep that VAR handy.


----------



## ScrambledEggs

GusPolinski said:


> BTW, be prepared to discover that the affair has gone underground. When it happens, her general demeanor will shift from weepy shame to total BSC shrew. Read up on the script, and be prepared for it when it hits.
> 
> And keep that VAR handy.


OM says:

"I had to say I did not love you. My wife was standing right next to me. I do love you but I need some more time to get past <whatever> so open your legs I want more sex from you."


----------



## GusPolinski

ScrambledEggs said:


> OM says:
> 
> "I had to say I did not love you. My wife was standing right next to me. I do love you but I need some more time to get past <whatever> so open your legs I want more sex from you."


Exactly.


----------



## Bananapeel

I expect all of that from them, which is why I can't see a R happening. She is going to want validation from him that their relationship wasn't hollow and will accept any lies he says so she can convince herself of it. As soon as his wife finally kicks him out is about when he'll contact her again. I hope she can pull herself out of the fog because she is going to have to heal too if she wants to ever gain control of her life again, and now I can't be there for her to help her through it.


----------



## ConanHub

You have exceptional composure and clarity of thought.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm

"She said she is in love with the OM and he is in love with her. I then went to the OM's wife and told her, and she was grateful. OM's wife confronted her husband and he said he wasn't in love with my wife and called her to end the relationship."

It always amazes me that WW's don't realize that all they are is a piece of a** to most POSOM's.....they lie to themselves over and over that POSOM is 'not one of those guys'...."He's different."

Must be a real humiliating eye-opener for WW's like OP's to realize they are getting dumped by BOTH men.....they go from viewing themselves as entitled princesses that DESERVE what they want because they are SO special...after all TWO men want them.....to being alone and utterly rejected by both guys....definitely not an entitled princess but more like the trash that gets dumped at the curb.

It's a good wake up call to reality IMO.


----------



## Bananapeel

ConanHub said:


> You have exceptional composure and clarity of thought.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's because everything is hidden behind a computer screen.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

Bananapeel said:


> That's because everything is hidden behind a computer screen.


:crying:


----------



## Chaparral

Bananapeel said:


> That's because everything is hidden behind a computer screen.


See your doctor for some temporary help. Unfortunately, they see this a lot.

Govto gym and lift weights. Besides the immediate benefits, to you mood and body, it gives you something else to think about. There is little time to think down thoughts when you are counting and trying to keep a weight from spoiling your day. Running and cycling give to much thought space and getting distracted ain't healthy on the road.:grin2:

You should find a good counselor too.

Most importantly, none of this is your fault. Cheaters are broken people that wreck other peoples lives for a little fun.

Is your wife trying to fix this?


----------



## Thor

GusPolinski said:


> And keep that VAR handy.





Bananapeel said:


> I confronted her on Friday and she lied and denied until *I told her how I found out* then she admitted to the whole thing.


The VAR may be unusable for future use.


----------



## 3putt

Thor said:


> The VAR may be unusable for future use.


Not if she starts to play little games. No telling which direction she'll go over the next few days.


----------



## Chaparral

He needs to keep the var on himself to record her in case she goes crazy and tries to get him removed.

Whatever way this goes it isn't over by a long shot. Its just starting.


----------



## Thor

Get the book "The Mood Cure". Several excellent natural remedies, proven to be as effective as any Rx pills. No side effects.


----------



## ConanHub

Bananapeel said:


> That's because everything is hidden behind a computer screen.


Some things show. You have it together, despite the anguish, better than many that have posted in your situation.

I know you are going through hell but you're not going to stay there.

I am sorry for what she has allowed herself to become and the price she paid.

She paid with the pain and destruction of her family to be a side piece of ass.

That is why I said to wake her up hard. 

She has allowed herself to fall into a "fog" and her thoughts are certainly not clear.

A sharp, hard blow, so to speak, is needed to restore reason.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

bananapeel

No matter what she says or does see this mess through.

She made it but unfortunately you have to clean it up.

And you are correct. You are not her "Plan B".

She needs to see that and feel that as a consequence for her selfish actions.

Your wife is in the affair fog. It will last for a while.

Find a good attorney, separate finances and begin to show her the consequences for her lousy decisions.

Stay calm and focused.

HM


----------



## Lostinthought61

Bananapeel,

important...and this will also send a very clear message, the last thing you want her to do is run amok with bills and spendings,

close as many joint account credit cards and open those in your name. you may have to pay off the balance on those joint ones.


----------



## Bananapeel

The weird thing for me is no matter how hurt I am I still feel like I have a responsibility to try to bring her back to reality. I did something that was probably really stupid, but I wrote her a letter to try to snap her out of the fog. I'm sure she'll see it and read it in a couple of hours. I don't know why, but I really want her to get better and figure out an honorable life direction from here forward. 

I'm not too worried about the finances. She knows she is going to get a large settlement from me and she is going to need it to start over, so she has no reason to waste that money now on frivolous junk. There will be a lot of financial insecurity for her in the future and she recognizes it and sees her need to prepare. She is going to have a major decrease in lifestyle quality. 

I'll make an effort to work out and take care of myself. I've always exercised regularly and kept in good physical shape, but the past couple of days I just can't seem to get the motivation to do anything other than hang out with my kids. I'll talk with a counselor tomorrow. I'll also talk with my doctor when I go in for the STD check.


----------



## 3putt

Bananapeel said:


> The weird thing for me is no matter how hurt I am I still feel like I have a responsibility to try to bring her back to reality. I did something that was probably really stupid, but I wrote her a letter to try to snap her out of the fog.


If you really want to do something to snap her out of it, inform her parents, other relatives and all your closest friends as to what's going on and with whom (make sure you name the OM). Nothing busts up a fantasy world quicker than having it fully exposed for the sleaze it is.

Oh, and get the letter back if at all possible. Just trust us on that one. She's not ready for that and you'll way more than likely come off looking weak.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

Bananapeel said:


> The weird thing for me is no matter how hurt I am I still feel like I have a responsibility to try to bring her back to reality. I did something that was probably really stupid, but I wrote her a letter to try to snap her out of the fog. I'm sure she'll see it and read it in a couple of hours. *I don't know why, but I really want her to get better and figure out an honorable life direction from here forward. *
> 
> I'm not too worried about the finances. She knows she is going to get a large settlement from me and she is going to need it to start over, so she has no reason to waste that money now on frivolous junk. There will be a lot of financial insecurity for her in the future and she recognizes it and sees her need to prepare. She is going to have a major decrease in lifestyle quality.
> 
> I'll make an effort to work out and take care of myself. I've always exercised regularly and kept in good physical shape, but the past couple of days I just can't seem to get the motivation to do anything other than hang out with my kids. I'll talk with a counselor tomorrow. I'll also talk with my doctor when I go in for the STD check.


Because YOU are an honorable person, living an honorable life. You don't know any other way. And, as much as she's hurt you, of course you still love her, and want her to be a healthy mother for your children.


----------



## Wazza

Bananapeel said:


> That's because everything is hidden behind a computer screen.


You are articulating a consistent, and in my view, wise direction in the face of one of the hardest things a person can go through.

You are human. Of course this is eating you up. But stick to your values. Keep considering the long term implications of your actions, in particular on the kids. In the long run that will be best.

Find a place to vent all the crap, because you are human and you need to, but do it where it can't hurt the main game. Smash something for example. I brought forward the demolition phase of a renovation on our house...and I am a very non-violent person so it was totally out of character! But it helped and it felt good.


----------



## Chaparral

Bananapeel said:


> The weird thing for me is no matter how hurt I am I still feel like I have a responsibility to try to bring her back to reality. I did something that was probably really stupid, but I wrote her a letter to try to snap her out of the fog. I'm sure she'll see it and read it in a couple of hours. I don't know why, but I really want her to get better and figure out an honorable life direction from here forward.
> 
> I'm not too worried about the finances. She knows she is going to get a large settlement from me and she is going to need it to start over, so she has no reason to waste that money now on frivolous junk. There will be a lot of financial insecurity for her in the future and she recognizes it and sees her need to prepare. She is going to have a major decrease in lifestyle quality.
> 
> I'll make an effort to work out and take care of myself. I've always exercised regularly and kept in good physical shape, but the past couple of days I just can't seem to get the motivation to do anything other than hang out with my kids. I'll talk with a counselor tomorrow. I'll also talk with my doctor when I go in for the STD check.


I doubt there is anything this soon you should say to her to help her out. Right now you are the one that ruined everything. She is desperately hoping the OM will come riding to the rescue. That's still possible but highly unlikely.

Print this old post off and give it to her to read. It explains, from a player that was on here before my time, the thoughts of her POSOM.

*Findingmyway was a player, I don't know if he comes on here much now, but he did leave a point of view thread although I can't find it. He posted something similar to me, here it is.:
***********************************************

My perspective- as a serial cheat. Before I start, I'm no GQ model look alike and I'm not wealthy.

For me, it was always about extra sex. The thrill of the chase and ego boost was a plus, but I just wanted more sex than my wife did. I always loved my wife and certainly never ever wanted to leave her or lose her. Especially not over someone else's wayward wife.

I had a simple method. I used it because it worked. I targeted married women. I figured they were safer for several important reasons.
1- Less likely to be sleeping around with random guys (STDs).
2- Less likely to pull the crazy girlfriend BS and call my wife.
3- In case of an unwanted pregnancy, I had a built in schmuck to pay the tab and would have claimed to have had a vasectomy.

The most important part of being a player is to hide it. I started with shy looks making certain I'd get caught and then doing my best to look embarrassed. If she started to come around more or dress sexier then I'd try a safe compliment. If she called me on my BS (yes, it happened) I simply acted highly offended. After all, I'm a married family man. That usually got me an apology. A few really smart ones just avoided me altogether.

If she accepted the compliment, I knew I had a chance. I never ever wasted time with someone that I didn't want to bed. If the compliment was successful, I simply followed with more as time permitted and just let things develop. Who knew where it would go? When she would speak with me about her frustrations with her husband (they always complained about their husband) I used that to my advantage. If they complained that he didn't do enough with the kids, I was dad of the year. If he didn't help out around the house, I did everything at home so my wife didn't have to. Yes, it was complete BS, but so what. My job was to make them feel special, pretty and needed and to paint the fantasy. After all, my goal was not conversation or friendship. I wanted to score.

Once things progressed and I had to keep it intense unless it was simply a once and done kind of thing. I would do that by pushing her boundaries for sex. Anal, public hook-up whatever. Keep in mind, I'm in it for the sex so I tried for everything I liked and heard more than once statements like... I never even let my husband do that. That was usually with anal, but sometimes public hook-ups also.

I certainly didn't want to be paying for hotel rooms out my pocket. If she wanted to pay, that was fine. Otherwise, we could hook-up anywhere, it didn't matter to me.

I always advised them to keep the secret between us, because it was so special. Actually, I didn't want to get busted. If they got busted, and some did. That was their tough crap to deal with. I certainly never vowed to love/honor/cherish them.

As I look back, I'm stunned at how easy it was and how many fell for my crap. I had some that would try to pull away and I'd feed them the star crossed lovers BS, you know... kept apart by the cruel hand of fate. That worked like magic to seal the deal. I also used things like I think my wife may have cheated on me. Then I'd work in how I got tested for STDs and it was clear and somehow manage to mention my vasectomy (never had one). Understand? I'm safe, you won't catch anything if you sleep with me and I won't get you pregnant. That was the message.

The one thing that sent me running was the fear of getting caught and sometimes I just wanted a quick bang and wasn't in it for a couple of months of an affair. I'm still also amazed by how many didn't see through my crap either. They didn't have to deal with the day to day stresses that adults face with me (finances, mortgages, car payments, child care, time commitments, etc.). With me, it was just fun and sex. The poor bastard at home didn't have a chance once the play was in motion. It also helped me to see him as a douche-bag when his wife whined about him for whatever reason.

I work with a woman that has lost everything over an affair with me. The house, husband, family, etc. It's difficult to see. She hates me now, but I never vowed anything to her or forced her to do anything. That's her tough crap. Her kids are in therapy, their grades tanked and she's struggling financially and the kids blame her, etc. Honestly, I wish she'd quit so I didn't have to see her every freaking day.


I do know a few like me that I consider even worse. They brag and laugh about getting wayward wives to do things and try to get email or text proof to show off. It's pretty easy, just tell her how much he liked doing X with her last night and let her respond. Then they had proof to brag about and trade notes. I didn't do that. I just wanted the sex and avoided the women they talked about. I liked to find the ones who would seem to be the last to ever do anything like this. Goes back to my 3 reasons.

I never flirted with a married woman unless I wanted in her pants. Plain and simple, you do have to hide it so they don't see it coming, but it's really that basic. Other players use different methods, but we all use what works and modify sometimes if we're not progressing to try a different angle. Not all women are the same, and sometimes deviations are required if she'll let you in her pants.

It was never about love, just sex. I sold the fantasy, yes. But that is all it ever was. A fair trade. They were adults and quite frankly should have known better. Am I a predator, I certainly never thought so and I certainly never thought about what would happen to them when we were done. Yes, all my affairs ended. Most stayed married to their H they *****ed about and screwed around on. Therefore, he must not have been that bad. People just get caught up with unrealistic expectations on life I think. For goodness sake, Prince charming is only charming because he wants a blow job.

Before I close, I'll say this as well. An engaged woman would have worked for me also, but I never found one that would go for me. Also, newly married women are much harder to get. I had the best luck with women who had been married for at least several years, throw a kid or two in the mix and they were usually more susceptible to being chased.

It was a fair trade. Attention and compliments for sex.*


----------



## jld

The bolded from post #144 should be a sticky.


----------



## ThePheonix

Bananapeel said:


> The weird thing for me is no matter how hurt I am I still feel like I have a responsibility to try to bring her back to reality.


You're doing what a lot of folks do my man; you're confusing desire, want and hope with responsibility. It ain't the same thing. Sides that, your desired actions, related to your feeling of responsibility, is not likely going to gee haw with her wanting your help to straighten out her life. Youre likely giving her another stick to beat you with.


----------



## just got it 55

ThePheonix said:


> You're doing what a lot of folks do my man; you're confusing desire, want and hope with responsibility. It ain't the same thing. Sides that, your desired actions, related to your feeling of responsibility, is not likely going to gee haw with her wanting your help to straighten out her life. Youre likely giving her another stick to beat you with.


Completely agree BP you are still thinking of her well being ahead of yours and your children

The best way to get her to fix her life (and get her attention) is to do just that

Care only for yourself and your children


----------



## Chaparral

The worse thing you can do is let her think you are plan B. Even if you decide later to try and reconcile she has to know that she has destroyed her family unit. She also has to know this in order to redeem her self in her own eyes and everyone else's.


----------



## May1968

It is hard to move on from someone you still have feelings for. Sometimes it has to be done, but you are the one to make that determination. One good thing if you call it that, is that because she felt that she had plan A to fall back on she probably felt it was safe to admit that the affair did happen and they were in love. If it was just a fling for fun she may no have been able to admit anything and give up her security


----------



## bandit.45

Bananapeel said:


> OK, here's the update. I confronted her on Friday and she lied and denied until I told her how I found out then she admitted to the whole thing. She said she is in love with the OM and he is in love with her. I then went to the OM's wife and told her, and she was grateful. OM's wife confronted her husband and he said he wasn't in love with my wife and called her to end the relationship.
> 
> So where to go from here. We have had several open/honest conversations (finally) and I am satisfied with the info I got. We aren't going to work in the best interest of our children and meet with a counselor to discuss how and when to tell them about D. My wife wondered if we could R, but I told her I don't have the choice to even consider R since she is in love with someone else. We agreed to make no major decisions for a few weeks, until our emotions subside and then we can work on the D. I'm getting attorney recommendations from a friend in a few days. I'm sure my wife wants to work past this from the point of insecurity, since she'll have neither relationship. But that isn't enough to have a marriage.
> 
> The last 12 hours have absolutely sucked. Worst time in my life.


Your wife isn't in love. She is in infatuation. It is powerful and has all the hallmarks of love but it is really just the brain chemicals firing off and making her feel euphoric. Dopamine and saratonin are her new drugs, and they are every bit as addictive as meth or heroin. 

She's addicted to him, so expect her to act the way a drug addict behaves. Now is the time to use that doped up mentality of hers to your advantage. She will probably do anything you want as long as the final objective is getting the other man. So use that to your advantage right now while she is in the fog...because this euphoria she is in will not last forever. She felt that way for you when she first met you and that faded, and it will so with the OM. So move quickly.


----------



## Bananapeel

Thanks for all the advice. We've been having a lot of very honest conversations lately and at least I know where I stand and the family stands in her eyes (we're #2). She wants to reconcile but doesn't understand what that means. She thinks its us working on strengthening our marriage and forgiving. What she doesn't see is that the only way for me to R is to see her infatuation for OM turn to outright hate for the damage he helped cause to our family. I'd need to know she'd crawl through the pits of hell for the good of our family because we are #1 in her eyes again, regardless of the toll it would take on her. She is embarrassed now and wants to hide, when in reality she should be calling my parents/friends/religious leader, and apologizing and pleading with them to try to convince me to stay because her shame is less important than what she'd lose by hiding from it. I am her safety blanket. I provide emotional and financial security and give her a very easy life. She wants that again, but not the commitment to me that is required to get it. I see no option other than D at this point, but for the good of the kids we decided to wait a couple of weeks for our emotions to settle before we finalize that plan. 

Again, thanks for the help and support. I'm going to take some time by myself to think and then visit my family for a while.


----------



## Bananapeel

Chaparral said:


> I doubt there is anything this soon you should say to her to help her out. Right now you are the one that ruined everything. She is desperately hoping the OM will come riding to the rescue. That's still possible but highly unlikely.
> 
> Print this old post off and give it to her to read. It explains, from a player that was on here before my time, the thoughts of her POSOM.
> 
> *Findingmyway was a player, I don't know if he comes on here much now, but he did leave a point of view thread although I can't find it. He posted something similar to me, here it is.:
> ***********************************************
> 
> My perspective- as a serial cheat. Before I start, I'm no GQ model look alike and I'm not wealthy.
> 
> For me, it was always about extra sex. The thrill of the chase and ego boost was a plus, but I just wanted more sex than my wife did. I always loved my wife and certainly never ever wanted to leave her or lose her. Especially not over someone else's wayward wife.
> 
> I had a simple method. I used it because it worked. I targeted married women. I figured they were safer for several important reasons.
> 1- Less likely to be sleeping around with random guys (STDs).
> 2- Less likely to pull the crazy girlfriend BS and call my wife.
> 3- In case of an unwanted pregnancy, I had a built in schmuck to pay the tab and would have claimed to have had a vasectomy.
> 
> The most important part of being a player is to hide it. I started with shy looks making certain I'd get caught and then doing my best to look embarrassed. If she started to come around more or dress sexier then I'd try a safe compliment. If she called me on my BS (yes, it happened) I simply acted highly offended. After all, I'm a married family man. That usually got me an apology. A few really smart ones just avoided me altogether.
> 
> If she accepted the compliment, I knew I had a chance. I never ever wasted time with someone that I didn't want to bed. If the compliment was successful, I simply followed with more as time permitted and just let things develop. Who knew where it would go? When she would speak with me about her frustrations with her husband (they always complained about their husband) I used that to my advantage. If they complained that he didn't do enough with the kids, I was dad of the year. If he didn't help out around the house, I did everything at home so my wife didn't have to. Yes, it was complete BS, but so what. My job was to make them feel special, pretty and needed and to paint the fantasy. After all, my goal was not conversation or friendship. I wanted to score.
> 
> Once things progressed and I had to keep it intense unless it was simply a once and done kind of thing. I would do that by pushing her boundaries for sex. Anal, public hook-up whatever. Keep in mind, I'm in it for the sex so I tried for everything I liked and heard more than once statements like... I never even let my husband do that. That was usually with anal, but sometimes public hook-ups also.
> 
> I certainly didn't want to be paying for hotel rooms out my pocket. If she wanted to pay, that was fine. Otherwise, we could hook-up anywhere, it didn't matter to me.
> 
> I always advised them to keep the secret between us, because it was so special. Actually, I didn't want to get busted. If they got busted, and some did. That was their tough crap to deal with. I certainly never vowed to love/honor/cherish them.
> 
> As I look back, I'm stunned at how easy it was and how many fell for my crap. I had some that would try to pull away and I'd feed them the star crossed lovers BS, you know... kept apart by the cruel hand of fate. That worked like magic to seal the deal. I also used things like I think my wife may have cheated on me. Then I'd work in how I got tested for STDs and it was clear and somehow manage to mention my vasectomy (never had one). Understand? I'm safe, you won't catch anything if you sleep with me and I won't get you pregnant. That was the message.
> 
> The one thing that sent me running was the fear of getting caught and sometimes I just wanted a quick bang and wasn't in it for a couple of months of an affair. I'm still also amazed by how many didn't see through my crap either. They didn't have to deal with the day to day stresses that adults face with me (finances, mortgages, car payments, child care, time commitments, etc.). With me, it was just fun and sex. The poor bastard at home didn't have a chance once the play was in motion. It also helped me to see him as a douche-bag when his wife whined about him for whatever reason.
> 
> I work with a woman that has lost everything over an affair with me. The house, husband, family, etc. It's difficult to see. She hates me now, but I never vowed anything to her or forced her to do anything. That's her tough crap. Her kids are in therapy, their grades tanked and she's struggling financially and the kids blame her, etc. Honestly, I wish she'd quit so I didn't have to see her every freaking day.
> 
> 
> I do know a few like me that I consider even worse. They brag and laugh about getting wayward wives to do things and try to get email or text proof to show off. It's pretty easy, just tell her how much he liked doing X with her last night and let her respond. Then they had proof to brag about and trade notes. I didn't do that. I just wanted the sex and avoided the women they talked about. I liked to find the ones who would seem to be the last to ever do anything like this. Goes back to my 3 reasons.
> 
> I never flirted with a married woman unless I wanted in her pants. Plain and simple, you do have to hide it so they don't see it coming, but it's really that basic. Other players use different methods, but we all use what works and modify sometimes if we're not progressing to try a different angle. Not all women are the same, and sometimes deviations are required if she'll let you in her pants.
> 
> It was never about love, just sex. I sold the fantasy, yes. But that is all it ever was. A fair trade. They were adults and quite frankly should have known better. Am I a predator, I certainly never thought so and I certainly never thought about what would happen to them when we were done. Yes, all my affairs ended. Most stayed married to their H they *****ed about and screwed around on. Therefore, he must not have been that bad. People just get caught up with unrealistic expectations on life I think. For goodness sake, Prince charming is only charming because he wants a blow job.
> 
> Before I close, I'll say this as well. An engaged woman would have worked for me also, but I never found one that would go for me. Also, newly married women are much harder to get. I had the best luck with women who had been married for at least several years, throw a kid or two in the mix and they were usually more susceptible to being chased.
> 
> It was a fair trade. Attention and compliments for sex.*


Thanks for this. I showed it to her and she started to cry. Everything there was essentially true, but she still thinks that he really loved her and that their relationship wasn't hollow. She is finding out otherwise now that he is trying to R with his wife and not contacting her.


----------



## bandit.45

Stop talking to her. Talk with action. Talking to your wife now is like talking to a junkie. Her brain is a bag of hammers right now. You have to shock sense into her. 

Do the 180.

See a lawyer, file for divorce, and have her served.

Cut off her access to your money. 

Ask her to pack her bags and move out. 

You have to take her up to the brink of the abyss. Talking will do no good. Please, please, please follow our advice. We have seen your situation play out dozens of times on this site, and the only betrayed men who ever win back their wayward wives are the ones who hit hard, fast and mean. It really is the only way.


----------



## Bananapeel

bandit.45 said:


> Stop talking to her. Talk with action. Talking to your wife now is like talking to a junkie. Her brain is a bag of hammers right now. You have to shock sense into her.
> 
> Do the 180.
> 
> See a lawyer, file for divorce, and have her served.
> 
> Cut off her access to your money.
> 
> Ask her to pack her bags and move out.
> 
> You have to take her up to the brink of the abyss. Talking will do no good. Please, please, please follow our advice. We have seen your situation play out dozens of times on this site, and the only betrayed men who ever win back their wayward wives are the ones who hit hard, fast and mean. It really is the only way.


I wish I could do that, but my priority is my kids. I can't put them through anything until we are properly prepared to minimize the damage to them. I am waiting for a book that I ordered on how to talk to kids about divorce. I have no intention of trying to win back my WW and I told her that yesterday. She is gone and our marriage is dead. I can accept that. Doing anything rashly that involves my kids isn't an option for me. When mom moves out we both have to be on the same page as to how to address it with them to minimize their emotional damage. 

I know talking isn't doing any good for her, but it is good for me. It has told me what I need to know so I can make my choice about how to proceed. It has shown me that I am not her priority and neither is the well being of our family. 

I'm having a lawyer friend get me names of good divorce attorneys. Once I get that I'll schedule a meeting and proceed.


----------



## OldWolf57

BP you have boots on the ground, and sounding like you got this.
Your stance on the M being over by her still hoping for him, tells you all you need to know.
Most BS don't or won't admit this even with the ww saying they love the posom.
So see this D thru, and if in the future there's a chance for her, let her chase you.

God Bless you and the kids man.


----------



## BetrayedDad

You're situation is eerily similar to what mine was....



Bananapeel said:


> She is embarrassed now and wants to hide, when in reality she should be calling my parents/friends/religious leader, and apologizing and pleading with them to try to convince me to stay because her shame is less important than what she'd lose by hiding from it. I am her safety blanket. I provide emotional and financial security and give her a very easy life. She wants that again, but not the commitment to me that is required to get it. I see no option other than D at this point, but for the good of the kids we decided to wait a couple of weeks for our emotions to settle before we finalize that plan.


You're sharp as a tack bud. You ARE the security blanket. Plan B in her mind. She does NOT love you, she loves HIM. You just provide her comfort. She wants to hide because she's sorry she got caught but she's not sorry she did it or she would be willing to crawl through barbed wire to win you back. 

WARNING: After you boot her out and plan A (the OM) is dead. She WILL be sobbing and apologizing and pleading with you to try to convince you to stay. DON'T FALL FOR IT! As soon as you cut her loose she will find another dude to screw very quickly. She will never fight for you because she's checked out. 



Bananapeel said:


> Thanks for this. I showed it to her and she started to cry. Everything there was essentially true, but she still thinks that he really loved her and that their relationship wasn't hollow. She is finding out otherwise now that he is trying to R with his wife and not contacting her.


Because she is a FOOL. Another STUPID spouse who fell for a player. Are you supposed to feel sorry for her? I hope not. Either she is dangerously naïve, which is not the type of person you want to be married too, or she's evil. Probably a little of both. Either way, that didn't stop her from disrespecting and humiliating you in the WORST possible way. Nothing is also stopping her from doing it AGAIN.



Bananapeel said:


> I know talking isn't doing any good for her, but it is good for me. It has told me what I need to know so I can make my choice about how to proceed. It has shown me that I am not her priority and neither is the well being of our family.


You're doing everything right. The kids will be okay. I have two young ones and I see them all the time. It's an adjustment but if you're a good dad they will love you unconditionally no matter what happens. This will be the BIGGEST mistake she ever made and after a while when you find someone who wants YOU (not just what you can provide them) you'll be happy you dodged a bullet from this ungrateful nutbag. 


Good Luck. You're doing fine. Your seem like a good guy, just remind yourself when you start to have doubt, "*I deserve BETTER than this."*


----------



## bandit.45

Bananapeel said:


> I wish I could do that, but my priority is my kids. I can't put them through anything until we are properly prepared to minimize the damage to them. I am waiting for a book that I ordered on how to talk to kids about divorce. I have no intention of trying to win back my WW and I told her that yesterday. She is gone and our marriage is dead. I can accept that. Doing anything rashly that involves my kids isn't an option for me. When mom moves out we both have to be on the same page as to how to address it with them to minimize their emotional damage.


Problem with this is, you and her are never going to be on the same page. She is not rational. She operating on one quarter of a lobe right now. YOU need to lead this separation and divorce. YOU determine how it will go down, when you will file and when she gets served and how. I understand you are not trying to win her back. But you need to protect yourself right now.



> I know talking isn't doing any good for her, but it is good for me. It has told me what I need to know so I can make my choice about how to proceed. It has shown me that I am not her priority and neither is the well being of our family.


None of what she says means anything because half of it is either untrue, minimized, exaggerated or obfuscated. Cheaters lie. They tell you all the things they think you want to hear. Don't believe a word of what she says. 



> I'm having a lawyer friend get me names of good divorce attorneys. Once I get that I'll schedule a meeting and proceed.


Good. Just be proactive.


----------



## gouge_away

Chaparral said:


> See your doctor for some temporary help. Unfortunately, they see this a lot.
> 
> Govto gym and lift weights. Besides the immediate benefits, to you mood and body, it gives you something else to think about. There is little time to think down thoughts when you are counting and trying to keep a weight from spoiling your day. Running and cycling give to much thought space and getting distracted ain't healthy on the road.:grin2:
> 
> You should find a good counselor too.
> 
> Most importantly, none of this is your fault. Cheaters are broken people that wreck other peoples lives for a little fun.
> 
> Is your wife trying to fix this?


I always find a bench closest to the punching bag or padded wall, you'll see.


Wazza said:


> Find a place to vent all the crap, because you are human and you need to, but do it where it can't hurt the main game. Smash something for example. I brought forward the demolition phase of a renovation on our house...and I am a very non-violent person so it was totally out of character! But it helped and it felt good.


Go out to the back yard and start digging two holes. That should settle your mind, give you a good workout and keep the OM inside his own house.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

Bananapeel said:


> I wish I could do that, but my priority is my kids. I can't put them through anything until we are properly prepared to minimize the damage to them. I am waiting for a book that I ordered on how to talk to kids about divorce. I have no intention of trying to win back my WW and I told her that yesterday. She is gone and our marriage is dead. I can accept that. *Doing anything rashly that involves my kids isn't an option for me. When mom moves out we both have to be on the same page as to how to address it with them to minimize their emotional damage. *
> 
> I know talking isn't doing any good for her, but it is good for me. It has told me what I need to know so I can make my choice about how to proceed. It has shown me that I am not her priority and neither is the well being of our family.
> 
> I'm having a lawyer friend get me names of good divorce attorneys. Once I get that I'll schedule a meeting and proceed.


Smart. If you can, try to be prepared with specifics for the kids with regard to who will be living where, how much their lives will and will not change (emphasis on the will not as much as possible), what the schedule will be, they can still have pets/sports/Xbox (whatever their "thing" is). Think of things, however small they might be, that they can have control over. Let them, within reason, make some decisions. For instance, I am moving out in 3 weeks and I asked my daughter if she wanted to keep her bedding she has now here or take it to my house. She chose to keep it here and I'm letting her pick out new bedding for the new house. 

Kids are selfish so they will be thinking mostly in terms of how this will affect them, their schedule, and their lifestyle. They also may feel a lack of control, which is where letting them make some of the decisions comes in.

I applaud you with how well you're handling this. We know you're hurting, but you're letting your head do the thinking and not your emotions and that is great.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

How's it going, Banana?


----------



## Bananapeel

Quite honestly, it's been rough. I am over the shock and now trying to figure out where to go from here. My wife knows the odds are very slim of us fixing this, and because of that she doesn't have much interest in putting forth the effort. She doesn't see that what I'd need to R is for her to give it everything she can to save the marriage and family, despite knowing the odds are slim. We are going to a marriage counseling appointment today and hopefully will get some good advice. I still love her and it's really hard on me to separate my head from my heart. 

One of the bigger issues we've been having is she wants to listen to the recording of her and the OM (the conversation after the sex), so that she can at least confirm that he really loved her and didn't want to discard her so easily. I told her no. She said she needs that to get over him, when I think she really needs that to justify to herself that her actions were worth it because she thinks he was her true love. I'll listen to the counselors advice, but don't see any good that can come of her listening to it. 

Her suggestion is to try separation rather than divorce and see if we can work things out and fall back in love, while living separate lives; and that maybe time apart is what we need to figure things out. I think that might be good for us, but I think it would be bad for the kids. I don't think giving them hope and then taking it away will make the transitions better for them. 

I told her last night that if the thought of losing me and breaking up the family doesn't drive her to fight for us, then there really isn't any hope. She said she is trying and has been spending time reading articles online, but to me that isn't a big enough effort. 

As per my suggestion, we have each made a list of reasons to R vs D and soon we'll discuss them to see if we are on the same page. I really know that D is the best option, but I'm having a hard time accepting the finality of it.


----------



## jld

Is it not controlling not to let her hear the tape? If you are divorcing, why not let go emotionally, too?


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Is it not controlling not to let her hear the tape? If you are divorcing, why not let go emotionally, too?


I would err on the side of caution from a legal standpoint if nothing else.


----------



## Bananapeel

She also said that her feelings for me have been changing over the past year and a half and she doesn't know why. She said I've become boring and am turning into an old man. I'm actually quite engaged in activities (religious, civic, professional, and personal hobbies), I guess she just has no interest in them and wants to go back to the high school/college party life.


----------



## Bananapeel

farsidejunky said:


> I would err on the side of caution from a legal standpoint if nothing else.


She actually told me she thought it was illegal for me to tape her without her consent. I told her that state law requires one person's consent and since my voice was on par of the tape I consented.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I would err on the side of caution from a legal standpoint if nothing else.


That is a good point. What has your lawyer said about the tape, OP?


----------



## Bananapeel

jld said:


> Is it not controlling not to let her hear the tape? If you are divorcing, why not let go emotionally, too?


I guess there is still a bit of hope in me that we might be able to work things out. I want her to see the relationship for the poison that it was, and not have anything positive to hold onto from it.


----------



## Married but Happy

BP, that sounds like midlife crisis behavior and thinking on her part, a last attempt to hold onto youth and vitality and excitement.


----------



## ScrambledEggs

Bananapeel said:


> Quite honestly, it's been rough. I am over the shock and now trying to figure out where to go from here. My wife knows the odds are very slim of us fixing this, and because of that she doesn't have much interest in putting forth the effort. She doesn't see that what I'd need to R is for her to give it everything she can to save the marriage and family, despite knowing the odds are slim. We are going to a marriage counseling appointment today and hopefully will get some good advice. I still love her and it's really hard on me to separate my head from my heart.


Incredibly tough, but your on the path. She is still in the fog and won't show any contrition until it becomes real to her. Chemically in her head, she is still in the affair.




Bananapeel said:


> One of the bigger issues we've been having is she wants to listen to the recording of her and the OM (the conversation after the sex), so that she can at least confirm that he really loved her and didn't want to discard her so easily. I told her no. She said she needs that to get over him, when I think she really needs that to justify to herself that her actions were worth it because she thinks he was her true love. I'll listen to the counselors advice, but don't see any good that can come of her listening to it.



You have to be kidding. First of all, this might be used against you in some way. I know that many disagree there are risks, but recording unaware parties is illegal in all 50 states. In some states it is legal if one party in the conversations is aware of the recording. Second, the real reason she wants to hear the recording is that she has more to hide and she does not remember what she talked about on that day. Maybe it is plans to D, her hiding money, or maybe she says really cruel things about you at times. To someone who has to keep lies straight it is essential to know what you know. Don't do it.



Bananapeel said:


> Her suggestion is to try separation rather than divorce and see if we can work things out and fall back in love, while living separate lives; and that maybe time apart is what we need to figure things out. I think that might be good for us, but I think it would be bad for the kids. I don't think giving them hope and then taking it away will make the transitions better for them.


Translation: " 

I want to separate so I can continue to pursue my affair in freedom and privacy, delay the permanent consequences of my actions, while still holding you reserve in case I change my mind or the affair does not work out" 

Get the divorce. Tell her you can still reconcile during or after and get remarried if need be. Getting married is easy. Getting divorced takes months or even years, don't delay your future.



Bananapeel said:


> I told her last night that if the thought of losing me and breaking up the family doesn't drive her to fight for us, then there really isn't any hope. She said she is trying and has been spending time reading articles online, but to me that isn't a big enough effort.


She is in the affair fog. Walk away hard. Short good bye.



Bananapeel said:


> As per my suggestion, we have each made a list of reasons to R vs D and soon we'll discuss them to see if we are on the same page. I really know that D is the best option, but I'm having a hard time accepting the finality of it.


I am right there with you bud. Just trust me the harder and stronger you are not the more you will jolt her out of it. She is clearly still under this dudes spell....


----------



## jld

Bananapeel said:


> I guess there is still a bit of hope in me that we might be able to work things out. I want her to see the relationship for the poison that it was, and not have anything positive to hold onto from it.


I hear you. But is even that not controlling? You are trying to control her perspective, rather than let her find her own way?

You want her love to come from her heart, right? Not be forced?

Giving her access to that info could help her get to the bottom of her feelings. Surely that is important.


----------



## farsidejunky

Bananapeel said:


> Quite honestly, it's been rough. I am over the shock and now trying to figure out where to go from here. My wife knows the odds are very slim of us fixing this, and because of that she doesn't have much interest in putting forth the effort. She doesn't see that what I'd need to R is for her to give it everything she can to save the marriage and family, despite knowing the odds are slim. We are going to a marriage counseling appointment today and hopefully will get some good advice. I still love her and it's really hard on me to separate my head from my heart.
> 
> One of the bigger issues we've been having is she wants to listen to the recording of her and the OM (the conversation after the sex), so that she can at least confirm that he really loved her and didn't want to discard her so easily. I told her no. She said she needs that to get over him, when I think she really needs that to justify to herself that her actions were worth it because she thinks he was her true love. I'll listen to the counselors advice, but don't see any good that can come of her listening to it.
> 
> Her suggestion is to try separation rather than divorce and see if we can work things out and fall back in love, while living separate lives; and that maybe time apart is what we need to figure things out. I think that might be good for us, but I think it would be bad for the kids. I don't think giving them hope and then taking it away will make the transitions better for them.
> 
> I told her last night that if the thought of losing me and breaking up the family doesn't drive her to fight for us, then there really isn't any hope. She said she is trying and has been spending time reading articles online, but to me that isn't a big enough effort.
> 
> As per my suggestion, we have each made a list of reasons to R vs D and soon we'll discuss them to see if we are on the same page. I really know that D is the best option, but I'm having a hard time accepting the finality of it.


All of her antics sound like you are her security blanket. 

If you were going to try to separate and then reconnect, I would only do it post-divorce.

Also, if she wants to prove to you she is serious about R, it should be less about y'all and more about what is broken inside of her that led her to think cheating on someone she claims to love was okay.


----------



## Lostinthought61

your biggest battle right now is with yourself and not your wife, she has already demonstrated over and over again where her allegiance is, she is still in love with him her mind can not understand the sweet words he said to her just last week, you see her actions and hear her words but your mind not able to conceive how anyone could put someone else in front of their family and in front of you...you can't wrap your head around it because ti does not make sense to you, but it does to her in the state she is in. your both speaking two different language, neither one of you can understand the other. Here is the hard part...she is not going to do any heavy lifting because she is trapped in her mind, until she sorts that out nothing matters. Giving her separation gives her what she wants and trust me on this one, she will go to him in secret to talk to him, to find answers and maybe to have sex...to win him over perhaps. You on the other hand, will feel resentment because now your doing the heavy lifting for the sake of the children, in hopes that she will clear her head and come back in love, but i promise you this, a seed has been planted and if she comes back you, to the family resentment on your part will only grow, you will be merciless at times, because you did all the heavy lifting...because she shows little remorse...you can file for D, and in the mean time see what happens. you can always stop the D in the end, but this give you both time to find out what really matters. And here is the big thing is she willing to do everything it takes to keep the family and you together.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I hear you. But is even that not controlling? You are trying to control her perspective, rather than let her find her own way?
> 
> You want her love to come from her heart, right? Not be forced?
> 
> Giving her access to that info could help her get to the bottom of her feelings. Surely that is important.


I am okay with that.


----------



## jld

I think you could turn this around, OP. I think she could fall in love, genuine love, with you again. But it is not through trying to control her that you will get there.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I am okay with that.


Okay with what? Giving her access? 

Or trying to control her?


----------



## farsidejunky

I see it as controlling what protects the OP'S interests. If the unintended consequences lead to it being controlling for her, so be it. 

Not that I see it as controlling, but you yourself have said infidelity is like addiction. Quite frankly a TON of control is necessary following an intervention for addiction, yet here you are advocating against the very thing that would be necessary if your theory on infidelity is correct.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I see it as controlling what protects the OP'S interests. If the unintended consequences lead to it being controlling for her, so be it.
> 
> Not that I see it as controlling, but you yourself have said infidelity is like addiction. Quite frankly a TON of control is necessary following an intervention for addiction, yet here you are advocating against the very thing that would be necessary if your theory on infidelity is correct.


Control of oneself, but not the other person, in this case, would be necessary.

He is not going to get truly free love from her heart by trying to control her. And it is not like he is planning to take her back, which might give him some moral authority for control. He seems set to divorce her if she does not immediately snap out of the fog and heal his wounds. Not gonna happen. Not that way, anyway.


----------



## farsidejunky

I see it differently.

Again, I do not see it as controlling. I was pointing out that your advocating for no control is the opposite of what happens in addiction, which is your consistent analogy for infidelity. 

As for the WW, there is no way to tell if her interest in R is born of love or desperation. And even if she adequately communicated it, there is a credibility gap due to her actions.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I see it differently.
> 
> Again, I do not see it as controlling. I was pointing out that your advocating for no control is the opposite of what happens in addiction, which is your consistent analogy for infidelity.
> 
> As for the WW, there is no way to tell if her interest in R is born of love or desperation. And even if she adequately communicated it, there is a credibility gap due to her actions.


Disagree.

Exposure is a control technique. I would advise he use it. Have you exposed her to close friends and relatives, OP? People who love her and do not want to see her used by him and discarded by you?

Even if she loves the OM, he does not love her. So that is over. She could come to love OP again, but both would have to "stay different," as Blossom says.

For sure, she cannot be the leader. She is hurting right now, even more profoundly than OP. He is stronger, as evidenced by his not having had an affair.

OP, do you want to use your strength to help your wife, and put the marriage back together? You are not required to. You could walk away. It is your choice.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Disagree.
> 
> Exposure is a control technique. I would advise he use it. Have you exposed her to close friends and relatives, OP? People who love her and do not want to see her used by him and discarded by you?
> 
> Even if she loves the OM, he does not love her. So that is over. She could come to love OP again, but both would have to "stay different," as Blossom says.
> 
> For sure, she cannot be the leader. She is hurting right now, even more profoundly than OP. He is stronger, as evidenced by his not having had an affair.
> 
> OP, do you want to use your strength to help your wife, and put the marriage back together? You are not required to. You could walk away. It is your choice.


So some control is okay?

Help me understand the criteria for "good" control vs "bad" control?


----------



## ReidWright

Bananapeel said:


> She also said that her feelings for me have been changing over the past year and a half and she doesn't know why. She said I've become boring and am turning into an old man. I'm actually quite engaged in activities (religious, civic, professional, and personal hobbies), I guess she just has no interest in them and wants to go back to the high school/college party life.


rationalization, rewriting history...she's not remorseful, not one iota


----------



## Bananapeel

jld said:


> Disagree.
> 
> OP, do you want to use your strength to help your wife, and put the marriage back together? You are not required to. You could walk away. It is your choice.


I'm not sure. My heart says yes and my head says it is a waste of time and will be more heartache. There is definitely an uneven emotional connection right now. I'm taking a couple weeks to figure things out and not react too hastily. 

Yes, she has been exposed. Not too everyone. Her immediate family and her closest friends know.


----------



## farsidejunky

Bananapeel said:


> She also said that her feelings for me have been changing over the past year and a half and she doesn't know why. She said I've become boring and am turning into an old man. I'm actually quite engaged in activities (religious, civic, professional, and personal hobbies), I guess she just has no interest in them and wants to go back to the high school/college party life.


You to WW: Then why do you have any interest in reconciliation?

ETA: The answer to this will help you whether you want to R or D.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> So some control is okay?
> 
> Help me understand the criteria for "good" control vs "bad" control?


In my opinion, the motive is critical, as are the methods used. And even with treatment for addiction, the individual has to make the final decision what to do with themselves after the intervention.

My husband would not just let me drive myself into a ditch under the idea that he has no right to try to control me, or at least exercise some influence over me. As my husband, he has responsibilities towards me. And he loves me. He would not just walk away and wash his hands of me.

Even if OP decided to leave his wife, exposure forces her to look in the mirror. Those friends and relatives are not going to just leave her alone. Well, maybe if she is a hopeless basket case they will just withdraw and leave her to be homeless and become a drug or alcohol addict, I don't know. But I doubt it.


----------



## jld

Bananapeel said:


> I'm not sure. My heart says yes and my head says it is a waste of time and will be more heartache. There is definitely an uneven emotional connection right now. I'm taking a couple weeks to figure things out and not react too hastily.
> 
> Yes, she has been exposed. Not too everyone. Her immediate family and her closest friends know.


What influence are they exercising?

Very wise of you to take some time to think. As another poster said, your ability to be rational in the face of great emotional upheaval is a huge advantage.


----------



## jld

ReidWright said:


> rationalization, rewriting history...she's not remorseful, not one iota


If you expect her to come out of the fog and immediately become the leader of the relationship, healing his wounds, I think that is wishful thinking.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> You to WW: Then why do you have any interest in reconciliation?
> 
> ETA: The answer to this will help you whether you want to R or D.


Why are you asking him to ask her to be the leader of the relationship right now? At this point, she might as well be in the critical care unit of a "hospital for emotions."


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> In my opinion, the motive is critical, as are the methods used. And even with treatment for addiction, the individual has to make the final decision what to do with themselves after the intervention.
> 
> My husband would not just let me drive myself into a ditch under the idea that he has no right to try to control me, or at least exercise some influence over me. As my husband, he has responsibilities towards me. And he loves me. He would not just walk away and wash his hands of me.
> 
> Even if OP decided to leave his wife, exposure forces her to look in the mirror. Those friends and relatives are not going to just leave her alone. Well, maybe if she is a hopeless basket case they will just withdraw and leave her to be homeless and become a drug or alcohol addict, I don't know. But I doubt it.


I agree with the exposure. 

Furthermore, letting her listen to the tape is akin to letting an alcoholic have just one sip.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I agree with the exposure.
> 
> Furthermore, letting her listen to the tape is akin to letting an alcoholic have just one sip.


If there is a court case, will it not have to be admitted as evidence?

I think exposure in every sense is a good thing. Transparency heals.

ETA: Isn't everyone around here saying actions speak louder than words? She will hear the OM's words, but she knows he has recommitted to his wife. Just goes to show his words were empty. He has revealed what kind of person he really is. That could help her see that.


----------



## alte Dame

I think bandit was completely right, BP.

Being resolved and strong now doesn't mean that your children are going to be hurt any more than they have to be in this mess.

You are in love with her, and she is in love with him. This isn't going to change in a day or two.

From what you write, you started out strong and firm and now are waffling a bit. For her part, she is using the security blanket of your home and family to deal with losing her love. Your priorities are where they should be & hers are definitely where they shouldn't be.

You should be firm about your divorce choice. Even with a broken heart, you can appear firm and decisive. Be firm about your decision not to let her hear the tape. Be firm in your belief that you are right and she is wrong. Be firm in your disgust that she had sex with him in your home. Doing this is not mutually exclusive with doing what is right in this situation for your children.

Be a strong, decisive man. This is the only way to turn this to your advantage. If she snaps out of her fog and wants you back, then you are in the driver's seat in making a decision. If she doesn't, then you have a head start in your new life.


----------



## jld

Being a strong, decisive man, imo, means allowing transparency to heal both of them.

This affair did not come out of nowhere. If they put this back together, it will require transparency and humility on both of their parts.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Is it not controlling not to let her hear the tape? If you are divorcing, why not let go emotionally, too?


LOL. She was there. She knows what's on the tape.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Why are you asking him to ask her to be the leader of the relationship right now? At this point, she might as well be in the critical care unit of a "hospital for emotions."


Anything but. I am suggesting he call her on her words.

"You want to reconcile with someone who you view as an old man? Why?"

Accountability IS leadership in action, JLD.


----------



## jld

Bananapeel said:


> She also said that her feelings for me have been changing over the past year and a half and she doesn't know why. She said I've become boring and am turning into an old man. I'm actually quite engaged in activities (religious, civic, professional, and personal hobbies), I guess she just has no interest in them and wants to go back to the high school/college party life.


You know, the more I think about this, the easier I think this would be to put back together, OP. You certainly do not have to. But if you want to, I am confident you two can do it.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> LOL. She was there. She knows what's on the tape.


She needs a reminder, because now she has seen his actions. She needs to hear again what a liar he is.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Anything but. I am suggesting he call her on her words.
> 
> "You want to reconcile with someone who you view as an old man? Why?"
> 
> Accountability IS leadership in action, JLD.


 I am not sure she wants to reconcile at this point, from what he has said. But that can change. Patience and transparency and humility, initially from his end, can motivate that.

How many conversations have we had about looking past a wife's words, to her underlying emotions?


----------



## BetrayedDad

Bananapeel said:


> My wife knows the odds are very slim of us fixing this, and because of that she doesn't have much interest in putting forth the effort.


Your starting to back peddle... It's okay to be crushed but don't let your emotions dictate your actions. Odds are slim? Slim?? Come on man. If a friend told you this story, you'd tell him to run for the hills and never look back. Like you said your head and your heart are at war. Use your logical brain, your head knows best. The heart is feeding you an illusion. Many a fool has followed his heart. Your marriage was murdered by your wife. Don't fall for an emotional fallacy.... 



Bananapeel said:


> One of the bigger issues we've been having is she wants to listen to the recording of her and the OM (the conversation after the sex), so that she can at least confirm that he really loved her and didn't want to discard her so easily.


Why the HELL does she want to hear the tape??? She was THERE! She knows what's on it. No good can come of you giving up the high ground. Don't to it! There's only two reasons she would want to hear that tape, A) to hear what evidence you have so she can use the info to her advantage or B) she's some sadist looking to emasculate you further and get her rocks off.

Control? It's about damn time you manned up and took control. It gives you power and don't be fooled by the PC crowd. Women are drawn to that like moth to a flame. The more you look like your taking charge in the divorce and are telling her to go pound sand, the more you start earning back respect. Because up until she boned some dude in your house she had NONE for you. NONE.



Bananapeel said:


> I told her no.


Good man. You're playing the most important game of poker in your entire life. Now she's trying to bluff YOU. You never show her your cards. Play your hand strategically and come out on top. If plan A was still on the table she would of done the same EXACT thing to you.


----------



## GusPolinski

Bananapeel said:


> Quite honestly, it's been rough. I am over the shock and now trying to figure out where to go from here. My wife knows the odds are very slim of us fixing this, and because of that she doesn't have much interest in putting forth the effort. She doesn't see that what I'd need to R is for her to give it everything she can to save the marriage and family, despite knowing the odds are slim. We are going to a marriage counseling appointment today and hopefully will get some good advice. I still love her and it's really hard on me to separate my head from my heart.
> 
> One of the bigger issues we've been having is she wants to listen to the recording of her and the OM (the conversation after the sex), so that she can at least confirm that he really loved her and didn't want to discard her so easily. I told her no. She said she needs that to get over him, when I think she really needs that to justify to herself that her actions were worth it because she thinks he was her true love. I'll listen to the counselors advice, but don't see any good that can come of her listening to it.
> 
> *Her suggestion is to try separation rather than divorce and see if we can work things out and fall back in love, while living separate lives; and that maybe time apart is what we need to figure things out.* I think that might be good for us, but I think it would be bad for the kids. I don't think giving them hope and then taking it away will make the transitions better for them.
> 
> I told her last night that if the thought of losing me and breaking up the family doesn't drive her to fight for us, then there really isn't any hope. She said she is trying and has been spending time reading articles online, but to me that isn't a big enough effort.
> 
> As per my suggestion, we have each made a list of reasons to R vs D and soon we'll discuss them to see if we are on the same page. I really know that D is the best option, but I'm having a hard time accepting the finality of it.


Eh... don't buy into that. It's a bunch of bullsh*t. She likely plans to at least TRY to restart her affair w/ OM and, in her mind, being separated will give her carte blanche to do that.

The ONLY reason to ever separate, IMO, is to create a point of legal demarcation at which finances can be separated. IOW, after point in time X, neither spouse is accountable for the other's financial decisions, entitled to any portion of the other's income or investment/retirement growth (beyond a certain point, at least), etc.


----------



## alte Dame

jld said:


> Being a strong, decisive man, imo, means allowing transparency to heal both of them.
> 
> This affair did not come out of nowhere. If they put this back together, it will require transparency and humility on both of their parts.


I agree with the transparent - that should be a given in any situation - but if he wants to be humble, he should keep it to himself, in my opinion.


----------



## Thor

Bananapeel said:


> One of the bigger issues we've been having is she wants to listen to the recording of her and the OM (the conversation after the sex), so that she can at least confirm that he really loved her and didn't want to discard her so easily. I told her no. She said she needs that to get over him, when I think she really needs that to justify to herself that her actions were worth it because she thinks he was her true love. I'll listen to the counselors advice, but don't see any good that can come of her listening to it.


No, don't let her hear the tape!

What if she decides OM really did love her? How does that help her get over it? She's trying to do 2 things, most likely. 1) Assure herself she wasn't duped by a total dirtbag. 2) Figure out if there is a chance they can get back together. If he does love her, she figures love will win in the end and he will dump his wife and come back to her.

Also, there may be a legal issue. If the recording is not legal in your location, you don't want anyone else to hear it. I doubt she would try to have you prosecuted, but your best protection is to have no witnesses who heard the tape. This should be something you discuss with your lawyer.


----------



## jld

alte Dame said:


> I agree with the transparent - that should be a given in any situation - but if he wants to be humble, he should keep it to himself, in my opinion.


I think he could model it for her. I think it is part of leadership. And if he wants to save this marriage, which I think is quite possible, he is going to have to be the leader, at least initially.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> I hear you. But is even that not controlling? You are trying to control her perspective, rather than let her find her own way?
> 
> You want her love to come from her heart, right? Not be forced?
> 
> Giving her access to that info could help her get to the bottom of her feelings. Surely that is important.


I didn't read anything that would tend to indicate that OP is looking to or wants to "control" his WW's perspective. And that would be a fruitless labor either way. She needs to come to that perspective on her own. That's what he wants her to do.


----------



## farsidejunky

GusPolinski said:


> I didn't read anything that would tend to indicate that OP is looking to or wants to "control" his WW's perspective. And that would be a fruitless labor either way. She needs to come to that perspective on her own. That's what he wants her to do.


QFT.


----------



## jld

Thor said:


> No, don't let her hear the tape!
> 
> What if she decides OM really did love her? How does that help her get over it? She's trying to do 2 things, most likely. 1) Assure herself she wasn't duped by a total dirtbag. 2) Figure out if there is a chance they can get back together. If he does love her, she figures love will win in the end and he will dump his wife and come back to her.
> 
> Also, there may be a legal issue. If the recording is not legal in your location, you don't want anyone else to hear it. I doubt she would try to have you prosecuted, but your best protection is to have no witnesses who heard the tape. This should be something you discuss with your lawyer.


For sure he needs legal advice regarding the tape, and other things, too.

Exposure should take care of getting back together with him. Plus, the OM's wife knows. That is the most effective exposure.

The OM chose his wife. His actions show he is a liar. OP's wife has to reach that conclusion at some point. I think the tape could help. And it would eliminate any possible resentment that the OP was trying to be controlling about the tape.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> She needs a reminder, because now she has seen his actions. She needs to hear again what a liar he is.


You are so adorably naive.


----------



## jld

Bananapeel said:


> One of the bigger issues we've been having is she wants to listen to the recording of her and the OM (the conversation after the sex), so that she can at least confirm that he really loved her and didn't want to discard her so easily. I told her no. *She said she needs that to get over him, when I think she really needs that to justify to herself that her actions were worth it because she thinks he was her true love.* I'll listen to the counselors advice, but don't see any good that can come of her listening to it.


He is deciding what her reaction will be. I think that is controlling. And I don't think it is going to get her to love OP again with a full, sincere love from her heart, which is ultimately what I believe OP wants.


----------



## Bananapeel

I'll let you know what the counselor says about the tape. I'm surprised I haven't destroyed it already.


----------



## jld

Bananapeel said:


> I'll let you know what the counselor says about the tape. I'm surprised I haven't destroyed it already.


Destroying it will allow it to haunt both of you. It will give the memory of it power it should not have. 

Keeping it and listening now or at some future date will be healing. Hurtful, but healing.

The OM is a liar, and that tape is your hard evidence of it.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Destroying it will allow it to haunt both of you. It will give the memory of it power it should not have.
> 
> Keeping it and listening now or at some future date will be healing. Hurtful, but healing.


I wouldn't destroy it. I'd back it up and THEN destroy it. And I'd never, Ever, EVER let her hear it.



jld said:


> The OM is a liar, and that tape is your hard evidence of it.


You're assuming that (a) OM was lying when he said that he didn't love OP's WW and (b) that he was being honest when he indicated that he planned to reconcile w/ his BW.

So yeah, he's a liar. _But you're assuming that he isn't *STILL* lying._

You're giving this POS waaaaay too much credit.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> You're assuming that (a) OM was lying when he said that he didn't love OP's WW and (b) that he was being honest when he indicated that he planned to reconcile w/ his BW.
> 
> You're giving this POS waaaaay too much credit.


He has been exposed, too. He is under pressure, too.

I think it is a mistake to destroy the tape.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> He has been exposed, too. He is under pressure, too.
> 
> I think it is a mistake to destroy the tape.


It was a mistake to tell her about it in the first place.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> I wouldn't destroy it. I'd back it up and THEN destroy it. And I'd never, Ever, EVER let her hear it.


You cannot protect her from herself. If she does not hear it, she will continue to believe a lie longer than she should be allowed to.

OM threw her under the bus. And if he did not, and there is some secret plan to reunite, then OP will see that and there will indeed be a divorce.

I think not letting her hear it is controlling, and will not end well.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> It was a mistake to tell her about it in the first place.


This I agree with. But now it is out, and I think she has the right to hear it.


----------



## ScrambledEggs

GusPolinski said:


> I wouldn't destroy it. I'd back it up and THEN destroy it. And I'd never, Ever, EVER let her hear it.


And archive the backup under strong encryption:

TrueCrypt


----------



## 3putt

jld said:


> This I agree with. But now it is out, and I think she has the right to hear it.


Just dead wrong.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> You cannot protect her from herself. If she does not hear it, she will continue to believe a lie longer than she should be allowed to.
> 
> OM threw her under the bus. And if he did not, and there is some secret plan to reunite, then OP will see that and there will indeed be a divorce.
> 
> I think not letting her hear it is controlling, and will not end well.


You're not getting it. Hearing the post-coital pillow talk is going to do nothing more than reinforce the notion -- in her mind -- that OM really does love her.

As for not ending well... what outcome do you imagine will come to pass should OP NOT allow his WW to hear the recording?


----------



## GusPolinski

ScrambledEggs said:


> And archive the backup under strong encryption:
> 
> TrueCrypt


Dude. We should hang out.

Like, for reals.


----------



## 3putt

GusPolinski said:


> You're not getting it. Hearing the post-coital pillow talk is going to do nothing more than reinforce the notion that OM really does love her.


Exactly


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> You're not getting it. Hearing the post-coital pillow talk is going to do nothing more than reinforce the notion that OM really does love her.
> 
> As for not ending well... what outcome do you imagine will come to pass should OP NOT allow his WW to hear the recording?


Do you really think OM wants to be with OP's wife? 

If he does, and OP's wife wants him, then it is over. There is no hope for R.

At this point, I think there is hope for R, which OP seems to want. Exposing his wife, using that kind of transparency to show her what a crumb OM is, is his strongest weapon. At some point she has to see the truth. Didn't he say she read that bolded piece Chap put up, and cried? She knows the truth already.

He should have her hear it in front of the counselor, in front of her family, in front of close friends (assuming this is all legal, of course). She needs to see what a liar that OM is. Her dear ones certainly will. They have the clarity of mind to compare his words with his actions. They will help her see that, too.

Why would you argue against transparency?


----------



## Bananapeel

GusPolinski said:


> It was a mistake to tell her about it in the first place.


That was only way I could get her to admit it to me and bring it out into the open. She kept lying when I confronted her even when I told her specific details of their encounter. She later told me she was lying to protect the OM.


----------



## jld

Bananapeel said:


> That was only way I could get her to admit it to me and bring it out into the open. She kept lying when I confronted her even when I told her specific details of their encounter. She later told me she was lying to protect the OM.


She is deep in the fog. 

What are her friends and relatives telling her?


----------



## 3putt

jld said:


> *She is deep in the fog. *
> 
> What are her friends and relatives telling her?


An even more convincing reason to not let her listen to that tape, as if anyone really needed a reason to begin with.


----------



## Bananapeel

jld said:


> She is deep in the fog.
> 
> What are her friends and relatives telling her?


They are all disappointed and shocked. Between the type of person she was and the type of husband and father I am, they can't wrap their heads around it.


----------



## ScrambledEggs

Bananapeel said:


> That was only way I could get her to admit it to me and bring it out into the open. She kept lying when I confronted her even when I told her specific details of their encounter. She later told me she was lying to protect the OM.


I hate to put it like this -no kid gloves- but this is your weakness showing. You don't need her to admit what you both know is true. If she refused to admit it that is when you go right to file for D. Which is what you should just go do right now because you basically provide the only way she will be truthful with you if she has no choice. 

Here is another thought: The marriage you thought you had never really existed.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Do you really think OM wants to be with OP's wife?
> 
> If he does, and OP's wife wants him, then it is over. There is no hope for R.
> 
> At this point, I think there is hope for R, which OP seems to want. Exposing his wife, using that kind of transparency to show her what a crumb OM is, is his strongest weapon. At some point she has to see the truth. Didn't he say she read that bolded piece Chap put up, and cried? She knows the truth already.
> 
> He should have her hear it in front of the counselor, in front of her family, in front of close friends (assuming this is all legal, of course). She needs to see what a liar that OM is. Her dear ones certainly will. They have the clarity of mind to compare his words with his actions. They will help her see that, too.
> 
> Why would you argue against transparency?


Again, she was there. She knows what happened and what was said. This isn't a transparency issue. That's not why she wants to hear the recording. She wants to hear him say "I love you" (or whatever it was that convinced her of that) over and over and over and over and over and over again. That's it.

And here's why... in her mind (and there's some logic to this), things that were said between the two of them, in private, are much more likely to have been sincere and truthful than whatever he said about (a) not loving her and (b) recommitting to his wife because both OM's BW and her own BH were both present or listening into the conversation.

IOW, OM HAD to say those things while his BW and OP were listening in order to throw them both off the trail.

Step back and look at what's transpired at a very high level...

* OP's WW initially indicated a desire to divorce, essentially stating that she'd fallen out of love w/ him.

* OP subsequently asked her about counseling, working on their marriage, etc, and she summarily shot all of that down.

* When asked if she'd become involved w/ anyone else, she lied and said no.

* OP came here and, after reading up a bit, decided to do some discrete sleuthing. Sure enough, she was having an affair... and was f*cking OM in the marital home, no less.

* When confronted w/ knowledge of her affair, OP's WW continued to lie until the tape was mentioned.

* Even after confrontation, OP's WW remained set on her path to divorce... until OM summarily dumped her.

* Having since indicated a (lukewarm at best) desire to reconcile, OP's WW is putting in exactly ZERO effort to that end.

^THESE ARE THE THINGS^ that OP's wife -- the one person in his life who vowed to love, honor, and cherish him -- did to him. And, while OM made no such vow to him, he DID vow the same to his own BW.

Sooo... _if OP can't trust his WW to honor her vows, *then why should he believe ANYTHING that OM says?!?*_


----------



## Bananapeel

I know there is really no way to R with her in her current mindset, but it is still hard for me to accept. When I look at her I see wife I've known for years, yet it is not the same person on the inside. I have the strength to do what needs to be done and file for D, but it is torture and I keep wishing for a way out so I don't have to do it. The thought of starting over is scary, especially when I married someone that I was totally compatible with and completely committed to.


----------



## GusPolinski

ScrambledEggs said:


> I hate to put it this -no kid gloves- but this is your weakness showing. You don't need her to admit what you both know is true. If she refused to admit it that is when you go right to file for D. Which is what you should just go do right now because you basically provide the only way she will be truthful with you if she has no choice.


:iagree:



ScrambledEggs said:


> Here is another thought: The marriage you thought you had never really existed.


Ehhh... I'd have stopped short of saying that.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

Well, I, for one, can't wait to hear what the counselor has to say to settle this "argument" once and for all. Not to make light of your situation, Banana.

I don't know where I come down on the issue, but the fact that she even wants to listen to it speaks volumes about where her head/heart is at.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

GusPolinski said:


> :iagree:
> 
> 
> 
> Ehhh... I'd have stopped short of saying that.


Me too .


----------



## Jung_admirer

BP.... I was in complete awe of how you handled DD so very well. I can feel in your words how deeply you care for your WW, but she must take the first couple steps towards R on her own. Take a look at this TedTalk: 
Shaka Senghor: Why your worst deeds don't define you

Acknowledgment, apology and atonement. These are the constituent components of remorse. Respectfully, BP ... you have not seen the slightest glimmer of remorse. Your job is to tell you WW what you need to see in remorse, then detach. Allow her the opportunity to begin to reestablish trust by her actions. You cannot acknowledge, apologize and atone for your WW, so detach and let her decide if she is ready to do the heavy lifting.

...and please take the tape to your lawyer today. Kindest Regards-


----------



## ScrambledEggs

SecondTime'Round said:


> Me too .



Fair enough. I am going to put away more torch and pitch fork for a few hours....


----------



## jld

Nobody believes the OM, Gus, except maybe OP's wife, in her current mindset. Again, she is in the fog. We all know this.


----------



## jld

Bananapeel said:


> They are all disappointed and shocked. Between the type of person she was and the type of husband and father I am, they can't wrap their heads around it.


What pressure are they exerting on her?


----------



## 3putt

jld said:


> Nobody believes the OM, Gus, except maybe OP's wife, in her current mindset. *Again, she is in the fog. We all know this.*


And your answer to this is to let her listen to the tape of her screwing the OM?? Hell, might as well put up a naked poster of the OM over the bed while she's listening to it as well.


----------



## Bananapeel

jld said:


> What pressure are they exerting on her?


They are all telling her that I should leave her, but aren't putting any pressure her to step up and try to start repairing damage.


----------



## jld

3putt said:


> And your answer to this is to let her listen to the tape of her screwing the OM?? Hell, might as well put up a naked poster of the OM over the bed while she's listening to it as well.


I have already given my rationale: OM is a liar, as shown by his actions. She needs to hear that. Eventually she will see it for herself. And that is when true reconciliation can happen.


----------



## jld

Bananapeel said:


> They are all telling her that I should leave her, but aren't putting any pressure her to step up and try to start repairing damage.


Have you separated your money? That will be another wake up call.

She needs to start feeling what life without you will be like. She needs to feel the new reality setting in.


----------



## 3putt

jld said:


> I have already given my rationale: OM is a liar, as shown by his actions. She needs to hear that. Eventually she will see it for herself. And that is when true reconciliation can happen.


LOL, but for God's sake, do you really believe she's gonna see what kind of liar he is while listening to a tape of them screwing their brains out?????

God have mercy!!! This is, hands down, the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard on this board!

Just SMH


----------



## jld

3putt said:


> LOL, but for God's sake, do you really believe she's gonna see what kind of liar he is while listening to a tape of them screwing their brains out?????
> 
> God have mercy!!! This is, hands down, the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard on this board!
> 
> Just SMH


Yes, I do. Maybe not right away, but eventually. Especially if this is pointed out by the counselor, relatives, etc., as they also listen to it.

Transparency is powerful.

Again, he did not have to tell her about the tape. He could have heard it, confirmed she was having an affair, and just filed. He did not have to try to get her to admit anything. He already knew.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

3putt said:


> And your answer to this is to let her listen to the tape of her screwing the OM?? Hell, might as well put up a naked poster of the OM over the bed while she's listening to it as well.


I think it depends on what Banana wants the end result of this to be - R or divorce. 

If he wants divorce, go ahead and let her listen to it to give herself more ridiculous affirmation that she was justified because this was wuv...twue wuv. Banana will know how she really feels and it might make divorce just that much easier. 

If he wants R, he probably shouldn't let her listen to it because like someone else said it's like letting an alcoholic have a sip. I disagree that it would "make her see what a liar OM is." It would only make her miss him, IMO.

Since Banana doesn't know what he wants to do yet, he should probably err on the side of not letting her listen to it in case they do end up attempting R.

For someone who just said I don't know where I fall on the subject, I sure did just verbally vomit on your thread! :surprise:


----------



## 3putt

jld said:


> Yes, I do. Maybe not right away, but eventually. Especially if this is pointed out by the counselor, relatives, etc., as they also listen to it.
> 
> Transparency is powerful.
> 
> Again, he did not have to tell her about the tape. He could have heard it, confirmed she was having an affair, and just filed. He did not have to try to get her to admit anything. He already knew.


Unbelievable


----------



## jld

SecondTime'Round said:


> I think it depends on what Banana wants the end result of this to be - R or divorce.
> 
> If he wants divorce, go ahead and let her listen to it to give herself more ridiculous affirmation that she was justified because this was wuv...twue wuv. Banana will know how she really feels and it might make divorce just that much easier.
> 
> If he wants R, he probably shouldn't let her listen to it because like someone else said it's like letting an alcoholic have a sip. I disagree that it would "make her see what a liar OM is." It would only make her miss him, IMO.
> 
> Since Banana doesn't know what he wants to do yet, he should probably err on the side of not letting her listen to it in case they do end up attempting R.
> 
> For someone who just said I don't know where I fall on the subject, I sure did just verbally vomit on your thread! :surprise:


She is going to miss OM anyway, initially. Her heart was involved. She became attached to him. 

In time she will see what a crumb he is. And then _she_ will want to destroy the tape.


----------



## Thor

GusPolinski said:


> You're not getting it. Hearing the post-coital pillow talk is going to do nothing more than reinforce the notion -- in her mind -- that OM really does love her.


:iagree:

I have a middle aged female relative who went through something like this. Her fiance cheated on her, probably several times. She ended the relationship.

But then she started mulling over "did he really love me?", replaying all kinds of conversations and events. Even talking to me for hours about it, trying to figure out if he ever truly loved her.

Why did she do this?

_Because if he did love her once, she thought she could remind him of it and make him love her again._

That's what's going on with Mrs. stbxw wanting to hear the tape.


----------



## Bananapeel

jld said:


> Have you separated your money? That will be another wake up call.
> 
> She needs to start feeling what life without you will be like. She needs to feel the new reality setting in.


Not yet. The problem is we are currently married so she can go get a loan or credit card without my consent and half the debt is automatically mine. I'd prefer to see what is happening in my accounts and not be surprised. Once I speak with the lawyer I'll proceed with separating finances, as per his recommendations.


----------



## jld

Bananapeel said:


> Not yet. The problem is we are currently married so she can go get a loan or credit card without my consent and half the debt is automatically mine. I'd prefer to see what is happening in my accounts and not be surprised. Once I speak with the lawyer I'll proceed with separating finances, as per his recommendations.


You see the lawyer when?


----------



## Thor

ScrambledEggs said:


> I hate to put it like this -no kid gloves- but this is your weakness showing. You don't need her to admit what you both know is true. If she refused to admit it that is when you go right to file for D. Which is what you should just go do right now because you basically provide the only way she will be truthful with you if she has no choice.
> 
> Here is another thought: The marriage you thought you had never really existed.


Agree, it was weakness but he did what most people do in the situation.

However, strongly disagree about the marriage never being what he thought it was. It may have been, and probably was, at one point what he thought. But then she changed. He didn't notice the changes most likely. Now there is a huge disconnect between who his wife used to be and who she is now. This is the cause of so much anxiety and confusion.

When one accepts that this is who their spouse now is, it becomes much easier.

It is natural to then mourn the loss of the marriage that was, and to mourn for the loss of the person that was. It is natural to be very sad for the cheater to have fallen the way they did. A real mix of emotions with the anger that goes along with the situation too.


----------



## GusPolinski

Bananapeel said:


> They are all telling her that I should leave her, but aren't putting any pressure her to step up and try to start repairing damage.


Perhaps they feel -- due to what they know of her -- that she's incapable of the heavy lifting that will be required to repair your marriage. Either way, it makes sense. You wouldn't tell half your crew to abandon ship while telling the other half to start heaving buckets of water over the side.

And, FWIW, I wouldn't leave her. I'd kick her out.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> I have already given my rationale: OM is a liar, as shown by his actions. She needs to hear that. Eventually she will see it for herself. And that is when true reconciliation can happen.


She's a liar as well. Listening to the tape will reinforce the lie.


----------



## jld

phillybeffandswiss said:


> She's a liar as well. Listening to the tape will reinforce the lie.


She is lying to herself, that's for sure. That is what I am trying to break.


----------



## Bananapeel

jld said:


> You see the lawyer when?


My lawyer friend is out of town and gets back today. So I should have his recommendations shortly after and then I'll call and schedule a meeting.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Yes, I do. Maybe not right away, but eventually. Especially if this is pointed out by the counselor, relatives, etc., as they also listen to it.


:slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: 



jld said:


> Transparency is powerful.














jld said:


> Again, he did not have to tell her about the tape. He could have heard it, confirmed she was having an affair, and just filed. He did not have to try to get her to admit anything. He already knew.


Finally... something that we can agree upon.


----------



## jld

Okay, explain to me what it means.


----------



## alte Dame

jld said:


> I think he could model it for her. I think it is part of leadership. And if he wants to save this marriage, which I think is quite possible, he is going to have to be the leader, at least initially.


If he is like 99% of humanity, his reaction now is to try to save this because his heart is so engaged. Once he is past the shock and awe stage, however, the facts of her betrayal will be disrespectful and outrageous enough for his fundamental feelings of love for her to change, in my opinion.

We can agree to disagree here. I don't think this is recoverable. I think if he tries, he will find himself soon enough not wanting to stay with her any more. She had sex with a married man in the OP's home and declared her love for said OM. I don't believe in the long run that BP will want this woman for a wife. And the long run will most likely be in the next year if he has the very natural evolution of feelings after such betrayal and hurt.

There are many ways to lead. Not all marriages should survive. Leading yourself with dignity out of a marriage that is so broken is a worthy endeavor, I think.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Okay, explain to me what it means.


What you're advocating isn't transparency -- it's an unnecessarily high degree of exposure that borders on the reckless.

Transparency, as it pertains to a relationship, is the open, equal, and willful sharing of information between the parties involved. Ideally, said transparency would serve to foster, nourish, and grow the relationship... NOT irrevocably destroy it.

If OP decides to let his WW hear the recording, it should be as a parting gift. IOW... 

"THIS is what you chose over your marriage and family. 

Enjoy. 

/micdrop"


----------



## convert

I forget is this OM a neighbor? 

Now that Op's wwwife knows the house may still have VARs in it.

they will meet some where else. better have a VAR in the car unless you are done with this marriage.

she is in such a "Fog", it is just a matter of time before they meet up again.

and letting her listen to the tape may make it happen sooner then later.

keeping them away from each other (including talk, texting or listen to the tape) might help the Fog lift.


----------



## manfromlamancha

I agree that while in the long term she may come to hate the tape, listening to it now will just make it that much more difficult for her to come out of the fog (where she still believes that that POSOM loved and still loves her - how else could they feel such passion).

I agree with JLD in that she still believes he loved her anyway and its going to be hard to break that - but I agree with Gus in that her listening to the tape isn't going to help OP short term.


----------



## BetrayedDad

ScrambledEggs said:


> Here is another thought: The marriage you thought you had never really existed.


BP let that soak in for a while... It's a completely plausible scenario. 
You already know you are being used as a security blanket. Consider you ALWAYS were the security blanket. She didn't LOVE you as much as you loved her but you were a nice guy, safe, comfortable and she settled for you. 

Is your wife the type that plays "damsel in distress"? Do you have "white knight" nice guy tendencies? You thought you were rescuing her from the big bad wolf (ie the world by giving her a comfortable wife). Why shouldn't you after all? She's your wife, the person you thought you could TRUST more than anything. 

Strongly consider she was a wolf in sheep's clothing. Some will tell you otherwise but would YOU ever do this to her? People don't up and lose their minds. They were always immoral they just lacked opportunity. If SHE never had a strong connection to you to begin with, nothing would stop her from doing this again. Virtually all evil in this world comes wrapped in a pretty packaging.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

GusPolinski said:


>


:slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: 

That quote is wrong! That meme is maligning the Greatest Movie Of All Time!!!!!!


----------



## GusPolinski

SecondTime'Round said:


> That quote is wrong! That meme is maligning the Greatest Movie Of All Time!!!!!!


Yeah, I know. I didn't realize it until after I'd already posted it, though. It showed up in my Google search right next to a meme w/ the correct quote, thereby leading me to (incorrectly) deduce that it was simply a smaller version of the same picture.

My bad.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> What you're advocating isn't transparency -- it's an unnecessarily high degree of exposure that borders on the reckless.
> 
> Transparency, as it pertains to a relationship, is the open, equal, and willful sharing of information between the parties involved. Ideally, said transparency would serve to foster, nourish, and grow the relationship... NOT irrevocably destroy it.


If this were all going to stay between the two of them, why did he bother exposing at all?

The point of exposing, as I see it, is to wake up the wife up out of the fog when the husband alone cannot do it. Her close friends and relatives, as well as the counselor, can help. Hearing the tape would drive what happened home to them, as well. They might be in their own fog about what she did.

If he moves on from her, she will have to start working (she is a SAHM, right?). If she needs money, she may ask those same relatives/friends for it. Keeping the marriage together is at least somewhat in their best interests, as well.

At minimum I think the counselor, OP, and his wife should listen to it together. The counselor is unlikely to let the wife wax romantic about it, since she knows the actions of the OM since exposure.



> If OP decides to let his WW hear the recording, it should be as a parting gift. IOW...
> 
> "THIS is what you chose over your marriage and family.
> 
> Enjoy.
> 
> /micdrop"


Well, I would certainly not advocate that. No good motives there.


----------



## jld

alte Dame said:


> If he is like 99% of humanity, his reaction now is to try to save this because his heart is so engaged. Once he is past the shock and awe stage, however, the facts of her betrayal will be disrespectful and outrageous enough for his fundamental feelings of love for her to change, in my opinion.
> 
> We can agree to disagree here. I don't think this is recoverable. I think if he tries, he will find himself soon enough not wanting to stay with her any more. She had sex with a married man in the OP's home and declared her love for said OM. I don't believe in the long run that BP will want this woman for a wife. And the long run will most likely be in the next year if he has the very natural evolution of feelings after such betrayal and hurt.
> 
> There are many ways to lead. Not all marriages should survive. Leading yourself with dignity out of a marriage that is so broken is a worthy endeavor, I think.


They have been married over 20 years, right? With a couple kids? I think R is worth a shot, if he wants it. But it would require patience, transparency, and humility. From both.

And he does not have to do it. He can certainly walk away. It is understandable if he would choose that.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> They have been married over 20 years, right? With a couple kids? *I think R is worth a shot, if he wants it.* But it would require patience, transparency, and humility. From both.
> 
> And he does not have to do it. He can certainly walk away. It is understandable if he would choose that.


Fair enough. But just so you know, NOTHING would likely sabotage that more than letting others -- especially family members -- hear the recording.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Fair enough. But just so you know, NOTHING would likely sabotage that more than letting others -- especially family members -- hear the recording.


Depends on how much time he wants to give it, I guess. If he is willing to wait for her to fade, rather than snap, out of it, he could just share it with the counselor. I definitely think he, his wife, and the counselor need to hear it together. I think his wife needs that attempt at a wake up call.

I would like to see true remorse from her. I don't see how that is going to come without complete honesty, mostly from her with herself.

Yes, I am sure she would be embarrassed initially. But she would have to face the truth. And most of us learn best that way.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

GusPolinski said:


> Yeah, I know. I didn't realize it until after I'd already posted it, though. It showed up in my Google search right next to a meme w/ the correct quote, thereby leading me to (incorrectly) deduce that it was simply a smaller version of the same picture.
> 
> My bad.


I figured that was what happened .

Meme fail!


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> If this were all going to stay between the two of them, why did he bother exposing at all?


There's a difference between (a) "My wife cheated." and (b) "My wife cheated. Here's a recording of her and her married lover f*cking in our home."

I mean... COME ON... I can't think of a better way for either OP or his WW to be taken less seriously by friends, family, a counselor, etc than offering to play the recording for them.



jld said:


> The point of exposing, as I see it, is to wake up the wife up out of the fog when the husband alone cannot do it. Her close friends and relatives, as well as the counselor, can help. Hearing the tape would drive what happened home to them, as well. They might be in their own fog about what she did.


That's one goal behind exposure, yes. The other is so that the exposee can't control or spin the narrative w/ respect to what led to divorce. Things like "we just grew apart", "we just fell out of love w/ one another", "he/she was abusive for years", etc tend to not hold much water after that.



jld said:


> If he moves on from her, she will have to start working (she is a SAHM, right?). If she needs money, she may ask those same relatives/friends for it. Keeping the marriage together is at least somewhat in their best interests, as well.


Pretty weak argument, IMO. And, actually, that's exactly why OP shouldn't listen to any immediate family (especially hers) saying "just work it out". It's a conflict of interest.



jld said:


> At minimum I think the counselor, OP, and his wife should listen to it together. The counselor is unlikely to let the wife wax romantic about it, since she knows the actions of the OM since exposure.


I'm pretty sure any counselor worth a damn would throw his/her hands up pretty quickly at the mere mention of listening to OP's WW romp w/ OM.



jld said:


> Well, I would certainly not advocate that. No good motives there.


Eh... no comment.


----------



## jld

Well, I think transparency is powerful. I think it is what exposure is. 

I can certainly understand friends and relatives refusing to listen to the tape. I can't understand a counselor refusing. I would think having that hard evidence there would definitely wake up a WS.

OP is not obliged to reconcile. But if he does, he wants a genuine reconciliation. I think that starts with transparency.

And aren't you one that is always talking about accountability? I think transparency is fundamental for that.


----------



## badmemory

Thought I'd jump in here late and give my two cents about her wanting to hear the recording.

Her reason just doesn't pass the smell test. I think it's more likely that she wants to hear it for one or both of the following reasons:

- She wants one last opportunity to wax nostalgic, as she is still pining for him. Instead of of trying to get him out of her system, she is clinging on, hoping that the tape will reinforce her belief that he does love her.

- She's not sure about your explanation regarding one party consent and wants to hear it for some type of legal recourse.

Either way; very bad idea to even consider allowing her to do that.


----------



## jld

Question for all of you who are opposed to playing the tape for the counselor, minimum, and possibly others who could persuade the wife to give up on the idea of the OM: Are you afraid the OP will be embarrassed by what is on there as well?

Because in reality, this whole thing surely embarrasses him. Transparency about it, imo, could get things back on track. I really do not know how to get it back on track _without_ transparency.


----------



## convert

Wait a minute.... when did we bring the family and relatives in this to listen to the tape? 

maybe he could post the recording of Face Book not


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Well, I think transparency is powerful. I think it is what exposure is.
> 
> I can certainly understand friends and relatives refusing to listen to the tape. I can't understand a counselor refusing. I would think having that hard evidence there would definitely wake up a WS.
> 
> OP is not obliged to reconcile. But if he does, he wants a genuine reconciliation. I think that starts with transparency.
> 
> And aren't you one that is always talking about accountability? I think transparency is fundamental for that.


:slap:



jld said:


> Question for all of you who are opposed to playing the tape for the counselor, minimum, and possibly others who could persuade the wife to give up on the idea of the OM: Are you afraid the OP will be embarrassed by what is on there as well?
> 
> Because in reality, this whole thing surely embarrasses him. Transparency about it, imo, could get things back on track. I really do not know how to get it back on track _without_ transparency.


Respectfully, you should probably stick to weighing in on whether a BS should or shouldn't (in your opinion) choose to reconcile as opposed to advising him/her w/ respect to how he/she should go about doing it.


----------



## badmemory

jld said:


> Question for all of you who are opposed to playing the tape for the counselor, minimum, and possibly others who could persuade the wife to give up on the idea of the OM: Are you afraid the OP will be embarrassed by what is on there as well?
> 
> Because in reality, this whole thing surely embarrasses him. Transparency about it, imo, could get things back on track. I really do not know how to get it back on track _without_ transparency.


Will the OP be embarrassed? Yes, in addition to being re-traumatized - needlessly.

In regards to transparency, that's for the WS to offer if she wants a chance to R; not for the BH to provide for his monitoring evidence.


----------



## jld

convert said:


> Wait a minute.... when did we bring the family and relatives in this to listen to the tape?
> 
> maybe he could post the recording of Face Book not


Isn't this the sort of thing that happens at trials? Aren't trials public? We are not talking about_ that_ here.

-----

OP, maybe this is the time to mention a different tack on all this. Everything I have said this far has been geared towards persuading her to reconcile with you. I think it could be in her long term best interest, and it seems to be what you want, at least right now. It would be the least disruptive for the kids, and for both of you, financially.

But there is certainly another valid pov, and that is that she just does not want to be with you anymore. Is that the reason her relatives and close friends are not trying to persuade her to reconcile? Do they think it is just time for you to do the needful for both of you?


----------



## jld

badmemory said:


> Will the OP be embarrassed? Yes, in addition to being re-traumatized - needlessly.
> 
> In regards to transparency, that's for the WS to offer if she wants a chance to R; not for the BH to provide for his monitoring evidence.


I don't think reconciliation will work without transparency, humility, and patience from both of them. They would have to rebuild together.

Thanks for answering my question, btw. I was just thinking in terms of getting her to consider reconciliation. I did not think of terms of his possible embarrassment.


----------



## convert

Ok, but we are in a trail yet.

You can't nice a wayward back.

here is some of the reasons I can think of not to put the tape out there to listen:
-embrasement -- yep sure is, both sides
-legal reasons
-giving power back to the wayward spouse
-give some control back to the wayward spouse
-feeding her addiction to OM
-keeping her in the "Fog" longer
-reigniting the affair
-creating more pain for the BS and WS and family

I am sure others can add more


----------



## convert

badmemory said:


> Will the OP be embarrassed? Yes, in addition to being re-traumatized - needlessly.
> 
> *In regards to transparency, that's for the WS to offer if she wants a chance to R; not for the BH to provide for his monitoring evidence.*


I agree


absolutely


----------



## alte Dame

jld said:


> They have been married over 20 years, right? With a couple kids? I think R is worth a shot, if he wants it. But it would require patience, transparency, and humility. From both.
> 
> And he does not have to do it. He can certainly walk away. It is understandable if he would choose that.


As I said, jld, I will agree to disagree. I predict that, if he follows the instinct to save it and works on R, he will within a short time find that he can't do it. The length of the marriage won't matter. Sometimes the betrayal just breaks the deal. I think that is the case here.

And I also believe that his WW will try to take this underground. I bet she and/or her OM are already trying.


----------



## jld

Well, he seems to want to reconcile, and she does not. Other than exposure, the only other thing I think would work would be for him to reflect deeply on how she fell out of love with him, and how he could re-attract her.

And really, the two strategies probably could work together.


----------



## jld

alte Dame said:


> As I said, jld, I will agree to disagree. I predict that, if he follows the instinct to save it and works on R, he will within a short time find that he can't do it. The length of the marriage won't matter. Sometimes the betrayal just breaks the deal. I think that is the case here.
> 
> And I also believe that his WW will try to take this underground. I bet she and/or her OM are already trying.


Sure, it is fine to agree to disagree. We are all just offering our best strategies to the OP. I am sure he appreciates a variety of thoughts.

As far as taking it underground, didn't she cry after she read the bolded piece Chap posted? If she still thought OM loved her, wouldn't she have rejected that? Was her reaction not a thinning of the fog?


----------



## Wazza

Banana peel, my background is that my wife had an affair about 25 years ago. I stayed for the kids, it was rough we put it back together (so you know what informs my perspective)

The first thing is, you are living possibly the worst emotional nightmare of your life, and you just want it to go away. I need to tell you that it is going to take you years to work through this, and you will probably never totally get over it. Therefore you need to resist the temptation to try. You need to accept what has happened and try to move forward, not go back to what you thought you had.

The second is to remind you that you have been thinking strategically, and focussed on the long term future, with a high priority on the welfare of your kids. That is, in my view, a very wise basic mindset and I encourage you to persist with that.

The third thing is, your wife loves another man and is willing to lie to you about it. This is hardly unusual, and there could be all sorts of explanations (it took me over 20 years to really understand why my wife did what she did). But the alarming thing i see in your story is that your wife is not seriously trying to fix things with you. To her credit she has come clean to some extent. She has told you she doesn't love you, she loves him. But to her shame, she is prepared to put you - and your kids - through this rather than give up. 

Your heart and your future are important, but they are not everything. The kids matter too.

In your shoes, I would be inclined to draw a very strong line. I think she has tried to have her cake and eat it too, and I suspect she is still trying. Separation is avoiding making a decision. It keeps you as an open option, without giving you commitment in return.

My wife spent the night with OM after she assured me it was all over. Reading the threads here, you will find countless examples of affairs where the same thing happened. What reason do you have to think your wife would be any different? Based on what you know, can you really see any other future than (and I am so sorry here) her looking for a way to win the OM back?

If you are not firm, I think you will drift in a broken state for the longest time. If you draw a line it will force a decision and you can move forward. To be honest, I expect it won't be the decision you want, but at least you'll know.

If there was any appearance of her wanting to save the marriage, I might suggest a different course. But the bottom line seems to be "I am in love with someone else. I am not in love with you. I think it is best that we separate. You will just have to deal with your pain. The kids will have to deal with this."

Life will get better. Hang in there and look after those kids.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

jld said:


> *Well, he seems to want to reconcile, and she does not*. Other than exposure, the only other thing I think would work would be for him to reflect deeply on how she fell out of love with him, and how he could re-attract her.
> 
> And really, the two strategies probably could work together.



I don't think he's made his mind up about that.....


----------



## ScrambledEggs

jld said:


> Well, he seems to want to reconcile, and she does not. Other than exposure, the only other thing I think would work would be for him to reflect deeply on how she fell out of love with him, and how he could re-attract her.
> 
> And really, the two strategies probably could work together.


I wanted to R too. But what I really wanted was for my wife to be someone different. She could have made those changes, but it would have been at great personal cost to her in time and work to change the selfish parts of herself. 

I don't know what to advise the OP in this regard except that if she is clearly not putting forth the effort in the face of divorce, fog or not, it just does not seem likely she is interested in changing what he would want changed in her--which is the capacity to be manipulative and dishonest to him. It is a is lot of work to change yourself and it is rare--most people won't do it.


----------



## Bananapeel

We went and talked with the counselor and he said a few things:

1. He thought listening to the tape would be very bad for her, but that I shouldn't try to control what she does. It should be her decision to make, even though it is a harmful choice. I told her ahead of the session that I'd follow his advice so I'm going to let her listen to the recording, one time only.

2. He doesn't think our marriage can be saved because there has to be complete commitment from both parties to work through this. My wife is ambivalent and I haven't decided definitively yet what I want, which means there is no chance. However, we should give it some time and a few counseling sessions before we make our final decision. He said give it at least a month and then see if we are or aren't committed to the marriage before we proceed. 

3. We need to learn to forgive so we can co-parent our kids properly, regardless of what our situation is.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Wazza said:


> your wife loves another man and is willing to lie to you about it. This is hardly unusual, and there could be all sorts of explanations (it took me over 20 years to really understand why my wife did what she did).


I don't mean to derail but this statement is very profound. 

You say you really understand why your wife did what she did. 

So what was this conclusion you came to? Just trying to understand myself.


----------



## jld

Bananapeel said:


> We went and talked with the counselor and he said a few things:
> 
> 1. He thought listening to the tape would be very bad for her, but that I shouldn't try to control what she does. It should be her decision to make, even though it is a harmful choice. I told her ahead of the session that I'd follow his advice so I'm going to let her listen to the recording, one time only.
> 
> 2. He doesn't think our marriage can be saved because there has to be complete commitment from both parties to work through this. My wife is ambivalent and I haven't decided definitively yet what I want, which means there is no chance. However, we should give it some time and a few counseling sessions before we make our final decision. He said give it at least a month and then see if we are or aren't committed to the marriage before we proceed.
> 
> 3. We need to learn to forgive so we can co-parent our kids properly, regardless of what our situation is.


I am sure that was a hard session, bananapeel.


----------



## GusPolinski

Bananapeel said:


> We went and talked with the counselor and he said a few things:
> 
> 1. He thought listening to the tape would be very bad for her, but that I shouldn't try to control what she does. It should be her decision to make, even though it is a harmful choice. I told her ahead of the session that I'd follow his advice so *I'm going to let her listen to the recording, one time only.*


Two things...

1) This will not end well.

2) I'll do my best to avoid pointing out that "I told you so".



Bananapeel said:


> 2. *He doesn't think our marriage can be saved because there has to be complete commitment from both parties to work through this.* My wife is ambivalent and I haven't decided definitively yet what I want, which means there is no chance. However, we should give it some time and a few counseling sessions before we make our final decision. He said give it at least a month and then see if we are or aren't committed to the marriage before we proceed.


I'd agree.



Bananapeel said:


> 3. We need to learn to forgive so we can co-parent our kids properly, regardless of what our situation is.


Ehhh... I _mostly_ agree w/ this. That said, I wouldn't be too forthcoming w/ any sort of forgiveness any time soon.

I'd also point out that forgiveness and divorce aren't mutually-exclusive concepts, and it's good that your counselor seems to recognize this.


----------



## 3putt

You have an absolute idiot for a counselor. I won't have to tell you 'I told you so' because you'll know it in a nanosecond.

Good luck


----------



## Bananapeel

GusPolinski said:


> Two things...
> 
> 1) This will not end well.


I know, but I gave my word. I still have standards that I won't break, no matter how she has acted.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Bananapeel said:


> 1. I told her ahead of the session that I'd follow his advice so I'm going to let her listen to the recording, one time only.


Sigh..... She has a broken heart over the guy she cheated on you with but where is her broken heart for you? If she cared about you she wouldn't give a sh!t about what's on the tape. Truth. Do you understand that at least? Now you want to help her get over her boyfriend? How nice guy of you. I don't know what else to say. Your wife has you deep in the friend zone.



Bananapeel said:


> 2. I haven't decided definitively yet what I want.


This is you're biggest problem. You do know what to do. You're too scared to be without her. That's why she's ambivalent. You give her power with your weakness. 



Bananapeel said:


> 3. We need to learn to forgive so we can co-parent our kids properly, regardless of what our situation is.


You just need to learn to be civil. Nothing more. Forgiveness is nothing she is owed or right now even deserves. Maybe if she changes dramatically but you're talking years if ever. 

Good Luck. I don't really have anymore to add to your thread. The anger is wearing off and now your back peddling into your nice guy routine. Exactly as she hoped would happen. Soon she'll hand you the broom to start rug sweeping her mess up.... Sorry man.


----------



## Chaparral

Bananapeel said:


> She also said that her feelings for me have been changing over the past year and a half and she doesn't know why. She said I've become boring and am turning into an old man. I'm actually quite engaged in activities (religious, civic, professional, and personal hobbies), I guess she just has no interest in them and wants to go back to the high school/college party life.


This is straight out of the cheater's handbook of lies. All this is an attempt to blame you for her wicked decisions. Pay zero attention to these kind of lies.

You knew what kind of marriage you had. The only truth here is how far the affair went back. Whether it was a year and a half or a year, that's when she started banging him. The rest is just cheater rationalization.

How does she say it started?

Was this only happening at your their homes for sex or were they meeting out at other places to go on dates?


----------



## GusPolinski

Bananapeel said:


> I know, but I gave my word. I still have standards that I won't break, no matter how she has acted.


I get that. And, truthfully, I admire it.

/salute


----------



## Bananapeel

BetrayedDad said:


> Sigh..... She has a broken heart over the guy she cheated on you with but where is her broken heart for you? If she cared about you she wouldn't give a sh!t about what's on the tape. Truth. Do you understand that at least? .


I totally agree and have told her that.


----------



## Chaparral

It seems you have studiously avoided saying how the two of you know the Posom and his wife. Is there a reason for that?

Are you going to listen to the tape with her? Your reaction in her presence could show her what a horrible thing she's done.

If listening to the tape is such a good idea, its only right to invite Posom and his wife to listen. That's totally absurd but no more absurd than letting her listen to it. Add a stipulation that while she's listening to it you will pack her stuff into garbage bags.

Her even asking to listen to it is as bad as if she asked to let her bang him one more time.


----------



## bandit.45

Bananapeel said:


> I totally agree and have told her that.


She doesn't care how you feel. Nor does she care about your standards. 

Sorry.


----------



## bandit.45

You have been given good, cogent advice by most of the veterans here and you refuse to follow it. 

I will check in a month from now to see how it all worked for you. 

Good luck.


----------



## badmemory

Bananapeel said:


> I know, but I gave my word. I still have standards that I won't break, no matter how she has acted.


_*He thought listening to the tape would be very bad for her, but that I shouldn't try to control what she does.* It should be her decision to make, even though it is a harmful choice._

Questions:

How is not "allowing" her to hear the tape, controlling what she does?

Why would you even entertain the notion that it is her decision to make? *YOU* own that decision.

Since he thought listening to the tape would be very bad for her, why isn't that the advice you agree to follow?

If he suggested that you doing your own electric shock therapy on her would be bad for her, but it's her choice; would you still agree?


----------



## farsidejunky

Bananapeel said:


> I know, but I gave my word. I still have standards that I won't break, no matter how she has acted.


I commend you for your honor.

I would caution you, however, in what you promise your WW. In fact, if it were me, it would be the last promise I ever made to her.


----------



## GusPolinski

farsidejunky said:


> I commend you for your honor.
> 
> I would caution you, however, in what you promise your WW. In fact, if it were me, it would be the last promise I ever made to her.


Indeed.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

BetrayedDad said:


> Sigh..... She has a broken heart over the guy she cheated on you with but where is her broken heart for you? If she cared about you she wouldn't give a sh!t about what's on the tape. Truth. Do you understand that at least? *Now you want to help her get over her boyfriend?* How nice guy of you. I don't know what else to say. Your wife has you deep in the friend zone.


Banana never said that! I get the impression he knows exactly the REAL reason she wants to listen to that recording!

And yes, if she cared about Banana and reconciliation, she'd be repulsed at the thought of listening to that recording.

I think if she goes through with listening to it, you have your answer, regardless of her reaction to it. Divorce.


----------



## antechomai

One: I find it interesting the word "tape" is still used as reference to a recording. "Is it live or Memorex?"

Two: She should not hear it.

Three: If the marriage survives, build a campfire and have her watch you throw it in.
If it doesn't survive, destroy it anyway. I wasted a bit of my life trying to understand the emails between my Ex and OM and trying to figure out who started what after my divorce. One day, I gathered every hard disk and tape up and took a hammer to them. 
I couldn't imagine having a recording.


----------



## ThePheonix

convert said:


> she is in such a "Fog", it is just a matter of time before they meet up again.


My take on the so called fog. 










*"Since it happen during a "fog" fixing it up should be a lot easier"*


----------



## Bananapeel

The OM and his wife were good friends of ours. The two cheaters started a hidden EA first and then progressed to a PA a few months ago and it was mostly in the houses when the spouses were out. I noticed the behavior change right away after it started and tried to talk with her and figure it out, but got nowhere. I really know there is no way to reconcile since she isn't committed to us and I have told her that and so did the counselor. I am meeting with my boss on Monday to discuss work flexibility so I can be primary with the kids since she will have to get a full time job (she was a SAHM). I have discussed the issue with my parents, religious leader, and some close friends. I have called the bank about options to pay her settlement, changed passwords to my accounts, and looked into taxes. I still need to meet with a lawyer and do some IC. 

I really appreciate the advice from everyone. It is hard to let go to someone when you have been with them for most of your adult life. I'm not scared to be on my own, but am mourning what we had and that is where the difficulty and indecision are coming in. I'm not normally indecisive, I've always known my path in life and followed it. This is also the first time I have had that control taken from me.


----------



## Bananapeel

It's a digital recording (from a VAR). I'm old school and inadvertently say tape recorder for a VAR. I also call the digital TV recorder a VCR and I don't text.


----------



## Bananapeel

The real reason she wants the recording is to try to convince herself they had a real connection. If the OM called her and wanted to meet up just to discuss their relationship one last time she'd do it behind my back in a minute, and then end up on her back a minute later. I'm no fool.


----------



## 3putt

Bananapeel said:


> The real reason she wants the recording is to try to convince herself they had a real connection. If the OM called her and wanted to meet up just to discuss their relationship one last time she'd do it behind my back in a minute, and then end up on her back a minute later. I'm no fool.


And you're supplying her with the ammo to convince herself they had a real connection. Can't recall too many love making sessions with adulterers that ended with, "Hey, thanks for the piece of ass. It's just what I needed from you. Now let me get home to my wife and kids, the people in my life I really love and need."


----------



## SecondTime'Round

3putt said:


> And you're supplying her with the ammo to convince herself they had a real connection. Can't recall too many love making sessions with adulterers that ended with, "Hey, thanks for the piece of ass. It's just what I needed from you. Now let me get home to my wife and kids, the people in my life I really love and need."


At least he'll know where she truly stands.


----------



## Wazza

BetrayedDad said:


> I don't mean to derail but this statement is very profound.
> 
> You say you really understand why your wife did what she did.
> 
> So what was this conclusion you came to? Just trying to understand myself.


It's relevant, and actually really simple when you see it. 

Look at your wife. She's a human being. She has strengths and weaknesses, and personality traits. She has hormones and a sex drive, which she may not totally understand. She may have avoided facing her sexuality where it appeared to conflict with religious teachings. She may not understand it or accept it. She may have romantic dreams about marriage and be unprepared for the dry spells and hard times. She is vulnerable to personal crisis like any human being. Motherhood is hard. Midlife is hard.

Watch her, figure out how she responds to life events and understand the crisis she is facing. You will then see her apply her normal coping techniques to the situation. Even when her behaviour seems totally out of character, that will only be because of the context in which it is occurring.

A simple example. My wife is a major conflict avoider. She is discrete, and avoids saying things that can cause pain. She will say things in what she regards as a tactful and gentle way. I am very blunt. She would say that I hurt people with my words. I would say that her avoidance of hard conversations makes her a liar. Both perspectives have truth to them. In the context of the affair, it made it impossible for us to have an honest conversation. I might want her to tell me about issues before they become serious, but it's just not her.

She was also a decent person, who knew she was doing wrong, but for various reasons couldn't stop. This created internal conflict and a degree of unpredictability, as she would try and contain her desire and it would burst out.

At the time of the affair, my wife cared for me but hated me. And she had to focus on the hate to live with herself. She will spend the rest of her life feeling guilty about the damage she did, where another woman would be able to move on.


----------



## 3putt

SecondTime'Round said:


> At least he'll know where she truly stands.


No, no he won't.


----------



## Wazza

Don't be there when she listens, and make it impossible for her to keep a copy.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

You disagree that if she A. Listens to the recording at all and/or B. Says, "See?? He LOVES me!" he won't know where he stands? (That there is no hope for R)

ETA: Oops, sorry, meant to quote @3putt in this post.


----------



## GusPolinski

Wazza said:


> Don't be there when she listens, and make it impossible for her to keep a copy.


Not sure how he'd be able to accomplish both of those goals...


----------



## Bananapeel

3putt said:


> And you're supplying her with the ammo to convince herself they had a real connection.


At this point what does it matter? The damage is done. If she wanted R, she would have to get over him and she isn't. The only person this is really going to hurt is her and she was warned by both me and the counselor. She's an adult and can make her own decisions, even if they are bad ones. She's not mine anymore, so my advice doesn't matter.


----------



## 3putt

SecondTime'Round said:


> You disagree that if she A. Listens to the recording at all and/or B. Says, "See?? He LOVES me!" he won't know where he stands? (That there is no hope for R)
> 
> ETA: Oops, sorry, meant to quote @3putt in this post.


No, because it's not where he really stands while she's in the throes of all this foggy thinking. Absolutely no good can come from this and it's been explained 100 different ways. If you don't get by now, you simply won't. No offense intended to you, STR.


----------



## 3putt

Bananapeel said:


> At this point what does it matter? The damage is done. If she wanted R, she would have to get over him and she isn't. The only person this is really going to hurt is her and she was warned by both me and the counselor. She's an adult and can make her own decisions, even if they are bad ones. She's not mine anymore, so my advice doesn't matter.


Okay, good luck.


----------



## GusPolinski

Bananapeel said:


> At this point what does it matter? The damage is done. If she wanted R, she would have to get over him and she isn't. The only person this is really going to hurt is her and she was warned by both me and the counselor. She's an adult and can make her own decisions, even if they are bad ones. She's not mine anymore, so my advice doesn't matter.


I think that you should consider the very real possibility that, while she does want to revisit her tryst w/ OM in order to determine -- for herself -- whether or not he truly felt anything for her, she may ALSO be looking to put the screws to you legally.

Or she may be looking to delete/erase the file so that you can't somehow use it yourself.

By all means, stand by your word. _But protect yourself._

*PLEASE.*


----------



## Wazza

GusPolinski said:


> Not sure how he'd be able to accomplish both of those goals...


Not hard....depends on OP and WW level of tech savvy.

She needs to be alone so she can react as she will.
He needs to not be there because, frankly, it's going to hurt big time.
No recording to minimise potential legal fallout.


----------



## GusPolinski

Wazza said:


> Not hard....depends on OP and WW level of tech savvy.


Devious intent will, often enough, inspire a certain degree of technical savvy.



Wazza said:


> She needs to be alone so she can react as she will.
> He needs to not be there because, frankly, it's going to hurt big time.
> No recording to minimise potential legal fallout.


Again, I'm not sure how he'd accomplish both of those goals... and I am the _definition_ of "tech savvy".

LOL... maybe he can discretely record her listening to the recording!

:lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: 

To be clear, Wazza, I don't disagree w/ what you're saying. I just don't see how he could accomplish it outside of pushing his WW into an empty room after frisking her.


----------



## Wazza

GusPolinski said:


> Devious intent will, often enough, inspire a certain degree of technical savvy.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I'm not sure how he'd accomplish both of those goals... and I am the _definition_ of "tech savvy".
> 
> LOL... maybe he can discretely record her listening to the recording!
> 
> :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl:
> 
> To be clear, Wazza, I don't disagree w/ what you're saying. I just don't see how he could accomplish it outside of pushing his WW into an empty room after frisking her.


Well, you just gave one. Letting her hear it on a phone or player that is not capable of recording is another. Putting it online somewhere that allows listening but not downloading, then deleting immediately after may be another (YouTube, Soundcloud, MySpace and ReverbNation might be options here. But you'd have to watch out for Internet archiving, which I know exists, but I don't know much about, and putting it online creates a further audit trail of its existence, even if it gets deleted.) Have the CD player in the next room, with the speaker in her room, if you want to be low tech.

In all cases, do not warn her, and insist that she hand over her phone before going in, since every cellphone is a recording device. If she doesn't know in advance that you are going to take the phone, she probably won't hide a second one. If she wants time to think, the deal is off, since she can then plan to outwit you.


----------



## GusPolinski

Wazza said:


> Well, you just gave one. Letting her hear it on a phone or player that is not capable of recording is another. Putting it online somewhere that allows listening but not downloading, then deleting immediately after may be another (YouTube, Soundcloud, MySpace and ReverbNation might be options here. But you'd have to watch out for Internet archiving, which I know exists, but I don't know much about, and putting it online creates a further audit trail of its existence, even if it gets deleted.) Have the CD player in the next room, with the speaker in her room, if you want to be low tech.
> 
> In all cases, do not warn her, and insist that she hand over her phone before going in, since every cellphone is a recording device. If she doesn't know in advance that you are going to take the phone, she probably won't hide a second one. *If she wants time to think, the deal is off, since she can then plan to outwit you.*


For sure.

And, actually, you just gave me an idea... if OP happened to have a wireless speaker (for example, any of the Sonos "Play" devices), he could set it up in whatever room she happened to be in and stream the recording to it.

But still... he'd have to be sure that she didn't have any sort of recording device on her at the time.


----------



## Chaparral

The idea of reconciliation is not at all out of bounds. The fact that she hasn't come out of her infatuation fog is par for this course. Mostly, even the folks that have successfully reconciled have gone through more than one DDay. Your wife is in just as much shock as you are. You have been thrown under the bus by her and she has been thrown under the bus by him. She is still in denial and that's why she wants to hear the recording. The idea she can tell from the tape if he's being genuine is absurd. Men almost never give up their wife and family for a cheating woman. Every man thinks if they will cheat with you they will cheat on you. Its still to early to tell if she could pull off a genuine reconciliation.

There is also the fact he will be able to only be with his kids 50% of the time and that's if he is extremely lucky.

Have you talked to his wife to see how she is getting along?

Have you talked to your wife about counseling for your kids?


----------



## Wazza

Chaparral said:


> The idea of reconciliation is not at all out of bounds. The fact that she hasn't come out of her infatuation fog is par for this course. Mostly, even the folks that have successfully reconciled have gone through more than one DDay. Your wife is in just as much shock as you are. You have been thrown under the bus by her and she has been thrown under the bus by him. She is still in denial and that's why she wants to hear the recording. The idea she can tell from the tape if he's being genuine is absurd. Men almost never give up their wife and family for a cheating woman. Every man thinks if they will cheat with you they will cheat on you. Its still to early to tell if she could pull off a genuine reconciliation.
> 
> There is also the fact he will be able to only be with his kids 50% of the time and that's if he is extremely lucky.
> 
> Have you talked to his wife to see how she is getting along?
> 
> Have you talked to your wife about counseling for your kids?


I think reconciliation is out of bounds while the wife is on her current course. It takes two.


----------



## thenub

Tell her she can listen to the recording. Invite OM's BW, your family and her family over. You can all have a listen. See if she'll go for that scenario.


----------



## 3putt

thenub said:


> Tell her she can listen to the recording. Invite OM's BW, your family and her family over. You can all have a listen. See if she'll go for that scenario.


Chap suggested pretty much the same thing earlier, only with just her OM and his wife. If he is actually going to allow this to happen, under the circumstances, I can't think of a better way to do it. Let's see if it's so real and romantic when the ones that are betrayed are there to listen to it with both of the betrayers.

Hell, this is no more insane than letting her listen to it in the first place, so if you're gonna go galactically stupid, then by God, go all out.


----------



## Vulcan2013

I'd suggest you listen with her if you can stand it. Bang her compartmentalized worlds together. And steel your resolve to D. 

She'll get over him. She got over you easy enough.


----------



## Thor

Bananapeel said:


> 3. We need to learn to forgive so we can co-parent our kids properly, regardless of what our situation is.


There are several forms of forgiveness. The one I grew up with as a kid is the one where your buddy accidentally smacks you in the nose when you're goofing off, and gives you a bloody nose. In this case the forgiveness is that you know it was an accident, he is sorry, and you forget it happened. Everything goes back the way it was. 

The other form is what you will be working towards. It is of the form where you no longer get upset about what she did. You can divorce her, and you can have nothing to do with her aside from the most necessary parenting issues, and you can even judge her actions as terrible. Yet you no longer allow it to anger you or cause other negative emotions. You accept that she did it, and this is who she is now.


----------



## Thor

Bananapeel said:


> The real reason she wants the recording is to try to convince herself they had a real connection. If the OM called her and wanted to meet up just to discuss their relationship one last time she'd do it behind my back in a minute, and then end up on her back a minute later. I'm no fool.


I guess one possible upside to her listening is that she decides he does love her, and she gives you a quick easy fair divorce.

Mostly though I don't think this is going to end well. Talk to your lawyer before letting her hear it. Don't let her be alone with the recording, and don't let her copy it. Make sure she doesn't hide a var to catch the audio! If your recording was not legal, you might be getting set up for a major world of hurt here. OM might even press charges!


----------



## 3putt

Thor said:


> I guess one possible upside to her listening is that she decides he does love her, and she gives you a quick easy fair divorce.
> 
> Mostly though I don't think this is going to end well. Talk to your lawyer before letting her hear it. Don't let her be alone with the recording, and don't let her copy it. Make sure she doesn't hide a var to catch the audio! If your recording was not legal, you might be getting set up for a major world of hurt here. OM might even press charges!


LOL...press charges for what? Getting busted for screwing another man's wife in his own home and bed? I'd like to see him try and pull that one off!

I wouldn't lose any sleep over recording devices in my own home. Not only is it not illegal, it just won't happen, especially considering the content of those recordings.


----------



## ThePheonix

I'm a little dense so can somebody tell my why it matters if OM loved this woman, or if she listens to the tape to verify it or if she is able to get over him? She loves the OM and the best Bananapeel is going to be is a limb for her to roost on while she waits for the OM beck and call. 
My way of thinking is when a woman virtually tells you, "I'm in love with another man and you no longer mean shid to me", its time for folks to quit pushing reconciliation.


----------



## May1968

I don't think most people are pushing for a reconciliation, at least not as things stand at this time. In the future, once the fog really clears, if she is truly sorry, then maybe people might suggest looking at reconciling. But as many have said, as long as she thinks she is in love with the POSOM no point in even thinking about reconciling. Of course, later may just be too late.


----------



## the guy

May1968 said:


> later may just be too late.


That's what usually happen....and the wayward has to live with the regret.

The audio of the sex will always be there no matter how much she starts to begs in a few months.

I could be wrong and the wayward and the AP get together..... that lasts for a year and then the begging and regret starts up. 

One thing is true the begging and regret will happen it's just a matter of when.


----------



## the guy

If it was me I would listen to the recording with my WW just to see the shame in her face....but then again my WW didn't screwed around in her marital home so I doubt this one has much shame at all.

Most waywards don't even want to talk about their cheating....this wayward actually want to listen to it again....go figure?


----------



## honcho

I suspect long after the drama of the recording has died down the words that will be burned into BP head will be when she stood in front of him and said she loved the OM. 

Take some time to let your emotions calm down but do not fall into indecision land. Divorce is not a fast process so even filing you have time to try and repair the damage if you chose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm

"She also said that her feelings for me have been changing over the past year and a half and she doesn't know why."

If I heard this from my partner along with a request to try separation and see if we could find a way to fix the M, I would be livid.

I would tell her that she ought to be far more concerned over the fact that MY feelings for her have probably been permanently altered by the sh*t she just pulled.....ESPECIALLY after she just sat there and lied continuously to my face even after hearing details from the tape, and admitting she did it TO PROTECT THE F*CKING POSOM!

I would follow this by telling her she better get her head out of her own a** if she wanted anything other than an immediate D.


----------



## Chaparral

Since you insist on letting her listen to it, just make it contingent on a few stipulations.

Like make her wait for two months.

Make her sign agreeable divorce papers.

Make it the sound track of a two clown f#ckfest video. (I'm sure there's one on the in internet somewhere)

Give her a copy with a second hand vibrator.

Make it a sound track for a Mexican donkey show.

Make her get a full time job first.

Make her look through your wedding a!bum at the same time.

Make her pay for it like a crack ho does.


----------



## Divinely Favored

I'd invite his wife and your in-laws over for a listening show at the same time. "Baby cakes...that is the stipulations if you want to hear it...we all will at the same time...."


----------



## azteca1986

jld said:


> For sure, she cannot be the leader. She is hurting right now, *even more profoundly than OP.* He is stronger, as evidenced by his not having had an affair.


I take it you've not been betrayed, jld? Whatever the case I find it hard to find a shred of sympathy for a remorseless cheater.

OP, your first port of call should be with a lawyer to make sure there will be no repercussions with this recording. If it needs to be "accidentally deleted", then that's what needs to happen.

Keeping your word is honourable. But giving leverage to, what's looking like, your soon to be adversary in a divorce is not smart. You have to be smart and look out for yourself.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> I have already given my rationale: OM is a liar, as shown by his actions. She needs to hear that. Eventually she will see it for herself. And that is when true reconciliation can happen.


With respect, it is not about the OM and his credibility. It is about what she believes. If she is in the fog as you believe you must also acknowledge that she isn't going to suddenly revert back to her right mind. That might occur but only after she has been disconnected from the source of her addiction. Listening to the tape is not going to alter her opinion of him. It's just going to reinforce her belief that she is in love with her because he is still the origin of her dopamine fix. You cannot logically debate with an alcoholic or drug addict while they are under the influence. Maybe after some time has passed the tape might have the impact that you hope it would. But not now, it's too soon.


----------



## Forest

Bananapeel said:


> The real reason she wants the recording is to try to convince herself they had a real connection. If the OM called her and wanted to meet up just to discuss their relationship one last time she'd do it behind my back in a minute, and then end up on her back a minute later. I'm no fool.


Just make sure you point out to her how stereotypical her actions have been throughout this. Its just another case of a man telling a woman anything she wants to hear in order to get into her pants. No matter how "deep" and fairy tale it seemed to her, she was being used for sex, and was silly and juvenile enough to fall for it.

Once the jig is up, and he's got to put up and pay up, her changes his tune. *He values his money way more than your wife.*


----------



## convert

I like the idea of making her wait a month or two.

and i would be there with her when she listens to it.

just to be clear, it is just the end (after the sex) that she wants to listen to?


----------



## Wazza

Gotta move on.

The mind movies after something like this are a nightmare. Very unwise to do anything that makes them worse than necessary imo.


----------



## Forest

Oh yeah, have a supply of barf bags ready for listening to the tape. You'll both probably want one.


----------



## ScrambledEggs

GusPolinski said:


> Devious intent will, often enough, inspire a certain degree of technical savvy.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I'm not sure how he'd accomplish both of those goals... and I am the _definition_ of "tech savvy".
> 
> LOL... maybe he can discretely record her listening to the recording!
> 
> :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl:
> 
> To be clear, Wazza, I don't disagree w/ what you're saying. I just don't see how he could accomplish it outside of pushing his WW into an empty room after frisking her.


The answer is simple. The WW listens to the recording with headphones while the BS is standing there. Unless she has James Bond Aural microphone implants he is safe legally and he does not have to hear it with her. Let her bring a all the VAR's she wants to stuffed in her purse and all the dark places.

BS should not let the device out of his hands.

BS should erase whatever media you play it back to her on and story a copy elsewhere. Or just delete it outright.

The risk is not large I think as others have pointed out but why give her anything to use on you. There was a guy indicted a few years ago for reading his wife emails.


----------



## Bananapeel

I spoke with my lawyer friend and he said I'm in no legal danger at all for making the recording. I followed my word and let her listen one time in private and then erased the recording. I asked what she felt afterwards and she said that she felt nothing. She didn't feel heartbroken, the need to throw up, or upset with him. Very telling of where she is. She said she doesn't want to work towards reconciliation because she knows I am set on divorce and that no matter what I do my mind is made up. That also says a lot. If she cared, she'd try to change my mind even knowing the odds were slim. She is still in the fog and I'm not going to fight it. We both agree we need to be as amicable as possible for the benefit of our children. She is going to go to counseling and in a couple of weeks I am going to meet with an attorney and start getting things moving.


----------



## GusPolinski

Bananapeel said:


> I spoke with my lawyer friend and he said I'm in no legal danger at all for making the recording. I followed my word and let her listen one time in private and then erased the recording. I asked what she felt afterwards and she said that she felt nothing. She didn't feel heartbroken, the need to throw up, or upset with him. Very telling of where she is. She said she doesn't want to work towards reconciliation because she knows I am set on divorce and that no matter what I do my mind is made up. That also says a lot. *If she cared, she'd try to change my mind even knowing the odds were slim.* She is still in the fog and I'm not going to fight it. We both agree we need to be as amicable as possible for the benefit of our children. She is going to go to counseling and in a couple of weeks I am going to meet with an attorney and start getting things moving.


Yep. Sorry man. But hey, given where I _think_ your head is, it might be for the best. Still... I know it sucks to have options taken from you.

Are you still in communication w/ OMW at all? If so, you may want to communicate this latest development to her. I say that because (a) I don't buy her comments w/ respect to not having felt anything upon hearing the recording and (b) based on that, I'd bet my next paycheck that your WW will soon attempt to contact OM.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Bananapeel said:


> I asked what she felt afterwards and she said that she felt nothing. She didn't feel heartbroken, the need to throw up, or upset with him.


Of course not, it was a fun and happy time for her. Sorry, but even with the marriage blowing up, it is a good memory right now.


Bananapeel said:


> Very telling of where she is. She said she doesn't want to work towards reconciliation because she knows I am set on divorce and that no matter what I do my mind is made up.


 I always love the "I know how you are" excuse, when thrown out by cheaters, to make you doubt your decisions. Oh and be prepared, this is where the blame game gets worse.


----------



## GusPolinski

ScrambledEggs said:


> The answer is simple. *The WW listens to the recording with headphones while the BS is standing there.* Unless she has James Bond Aural microphone implants he is safe legally and he does not have to hear it with her. Let her bring a all the VAR's she wants to stuffed in her purse and all the dark places.
> 
> BS should not let the device out of his hands.
> 
> BS should erase whatever media you play it back to her on and story a copy elsewhere. Or just delete it outright.
> 
> The risk is not large I think as others have pointed out but why give her anything to use on you. There was a guy indicted a few years ago for reading his wife emails.


See... something else I didn't even consider. I must have been seriously caffeine deficient yesterday.


----------



## Thor

3putt said:


> LOL...press charges for what? Getting busted for screwing another man's wife in his own home and bed? I'd like to see him try and pull that one off!
> 
> I wouldn't lose any sleep over recording devices in my own home. Not only is it not illegal, it just won't happen, especially considering the content of those recordings.


People can be crazy. I think the chances of being prosecuted are very small, but we don't know what ww's motivation truly is for listening to this recording. For all we know, OM has friends in the DA's office or has a vicious lawyer friend who would be happy to file charges or a lawsuit. Emotional Distress for OM because he was recorded having sex.

Paying lawyers for court time gets really expensive really fast. As one of my lawyer acquaintances says, don't be the test case. Stay as far from the precipice as possible.


----------



## Bananapeel

GusPolinski said:


> Yep. Sorry man. But hey, given where I _think_ your head is, it might be for the best. Still... I know it sucks to have options taken from you.
> 
> Are you still in communication w/ OMW at all? If so, you may want to communicate this latest development to her. I say that because (a) I don't buy her comments w/ respect to not having felt anything upon hearing the recording and (b) based on that, I'd bet my next paycheck that your WW will soon attempt to contact OM.


We are still in communication, but it is occasional and only about things like returning various things left at our house, etc. I should be running into her in a few days at an event so I'll talk with her briefly. 

I know my wife wants continued contact. She feels like she has given everything up out of her love for the OM, and because of that she really wants to have him. It sucks to recognize, but maybe will make it easier for me to get through this mess.


----------



## farsidejunky

Has she moved out or is she still living in the home?


----------



## just got it 55

BP letting her hear the recording has done you more good that you realize at the moment It has set you free Brother

55


----------



## 3putt

Thor said:


> People can be crazy. I think the chances of being prosecuted are very small, but we don't know what ww's motivation truly is for listening to this recording. For all we know, OM has friends in the DA's office or has a vicious lawyer friend who would be happy to file charges or a lawsuit. Emotional Distress for OM because he was recorded having sex.
> 
> Paying lawyers for court time gets really expensive really fast. As one of my lawyer acquaintances says, don't be the test case. Stay as far from the precipice as possible.


Emotional Distress for getting caught on tape screwing another man's wife in his own damned bed????? You're better than this, Thor. That is beyond ludicrous. Oh, and the test case has already been tried (Michigan). The DA and police wound up looking like the idiots and fools they were...and probably still are.

People can be crazy all they want, but they can't create or circumvent laws just to appease their craziness whenever it suits their needs or desires.

It's simply NOT against the law to have recording devices in your OWN home. 

Period.


----------



## Bananapeel

farsidejunky said:


> Has she moved out or is she still living in the home?


She's still here and staying in the guest room, while we figure things out with the kids.


----------



## ThePheonix

Bananapeel said:


> She said she doesn't want to work towards reconciliation because she knows I am set on divorce and that no matter what I do my mind is made up. That also says a lot. If she cared, she'd try to change my mind even knowing the odds were slim.


Refreshing to see you grasp the reality of it Dawg. Her, " knows I am set on divorce and that no matter what I do my mind is made up" is womanese for, " I'm looking forward to getting you out of my life and I get to blame you for not wanting to work something out."
When a woman screws another man, it means she's lost interest in you, (I don't care what anybody sez) and when she screw him in your house its highly symbolic. So forget this crap people tell you about the "benefits of reconciliation", "people who get divorced later wished they hadn't" and other such nonsense.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Bananapeel said:


> She said she doesn't want to work towards reconciliation because she knows I am set on divorce and that no matter what I do my mind is made up.


No surprise. Its very difficult for cheater who saw you as lower than dirt to then turn around and BEG you for forgiveness after having NO respect for you for so long. Think of someone you truly despise. Then imagine having to beg them for loose change. It's on par with something like that. Many times their ego is too big from playing you as a fool for so long. Part of the thrill cheaters get off on is cuckolding the BS.

The worst revelation you will have is when you eventually realize the same thing that matter the MOST to you (your marriage) meant absolutely NOTHING to her. It's crystal clear in her actions right now if you could see objectively. She'll eventually come crawling back but once you see past all the crocodile tears you will realize it is only because she wants her security blanket. The real world is a cold place and she wants to keep warm.


----------



## alte Dame

Bananapeel said:


> ... She feels like she has given everything up out of her love for the OM, and because of that she really wants to have him. It sucks to recognize, but maybe will make it easier for me to get through this mess.


The 'tragic love' scenario seems so immature to me. People who are supposedly adult and responsible 'give up everything,' including their focus on their children.

I simply could not do this. The children would never fade into the background.

(And I don't agree with what I read here all the time that 'she is still a great mom' or 'he's a fantastic father.' I don't believe these things are separate. I can't see them that way. The cheating and the parenting comprise parts of a whole that the children are exposed to and are certainly affected by, in my opinion.)


----------



## azteca1986

Bananapeel said:


> She said she doesn't want to work towards reconciliation because she knows I am set on divorce and that no matter what I do my mind is made up.


Notice the oh so subtle blame shift here. The reason is not because she's in love with OM, it's because you have made up your mind. Straight out of the cheaters handbook


----------



## jld

azteca1986 said:


> Notice the oh so subtle blame shift here. The reason is not because she's in love with OM, it's because you have made up your mind. Straight out of the cheaters handbook


I think she just feels powerless.


----------



## Wazza

Bananapeel, you are doing ok.

I know it hurts, and it will change you forever. And I know that there is a lot of emotional turmoil behind your measured words on the screen. But you seem to me to be making good decisions under intolerable pressure.

Look after those kids (they are lucky to have a Dad like you). And do something for yourself. Look after yourself, it's ok to need that.


----------



## Thor

3putt said:


> People can be crazy all they want, but they can't create or circumvent laws just to appease their craziness whenever it suits their needs or desires.
> 
> It's simply NOT against the law to have recording devices in your OWN home.
> 
> Period.


Fortunately OP's lawyer says he is not in any legal jeopardy. But I still think one should in general avoid giving any ammunition to potential adversaries. We went around and around with a batsh1t crazy landlord one time. He was fired by several lawyers, each time getting a new one who would send a letter or file something. Then we would have to pay our lawyer good money (which we really didn't have) to respond. Then the new lawyer would fire him, so he'd go find another. Around and around. It cost us a lot of $$ even though the landlord was waay out of line.

The good news is he bragged to a neighbor about how he was cheating on his taxes. Then he let his crazy loose on her, so she turned him in for tax fraud.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Thor said:


> Fortunately OP's lawyer says he is not in any legal jeopardy. But I still think one should in general avoid giving any ammunition to potential adversaries.


Only a few disagree, it was the doomsday fear scenario 3putt was addressing.


----------



## 3putt

Thor said:


> Fortunately OP's lawyer says he is not in any legal jeopardy. But I still think one should in general avoid giving any ammunition to potential adversaries. We went around and around with a batsh1t crazy landlord one time. He was fired by several lawyers, each time getting a new one who would send a letter or file something. Then we would have to pay our lawyer good money (which we really didn't have) to respond. Then the new lawyer would fire him, so he'd go find another. Around and around. It cost us a lot of $$ even though the landlord was waay out of line.
> 
> The good news is he bragged to a neighbor about how he was cheating on his taxes. Then he let his crazy loose on her, so she turned him in for tax fraud.


He wasn't in any legal jeopardy before he talked to a lawyer. Again, there is absolutely nothing illegal about having recording devices (audio or video) in your own home.

Not sure what the rest of your post has to do with this situation, but it seems about as apple and orange as you can get.

Not trying to sound like a jerk or an a$$hole, but I just don't get all the warnings when they simply don't apply. Now, if we're talking about a gray area, then proceed with caution. But we're not talking about that here. It's black and white.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> I think she just feels powerless.


 LOL no. 
These were family friends, not sexual harassment at work, she had all kinds of power.


She had the power to say "no."
She had the power to say "not in my house."
She had the power to end the friendship.
She had the power to communicate problems in the marriage to her husband.


She STILL has the power to show remorse and help her husband emotionally.

Yes, we will disagree on powerlessness..

I'll address the safe comment before it is dropped. She told her husband she was in love with someone else, during a heated and life altering discussion. If he was safe or did he make it a safe environment is answered with a resounding YES.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> I think she just feels powerless.


And all she would have to do to feel like she has some control again would be to admit what she did, give her husband a heartfelt apology and beg for his forgiveness. But her sorry-ass pride won't let her do that. 

So divorce it is.


----------



## Thor

3putt said:


> He wasn't in any legal jeopardy before he talked to a lawyer. Again, there is absolutely nothing illegal about having recording devices (audio or video) in your own home.
> 
> Not sure what the rest of your post has to do with this situation, but it seems about as apple and orange as you can get.
> 
> Not trying to sound like a jerk or an a$$hole, but I just don't get all the warnings when they simply don't apply. Now, if we're talking about a gray area, then proceed with caution. But we're not talking about that here. It's black and white.


I am not sure that recording in one's own home is always legal. My state is a single-party state. If I am not here and record others without their consent, it appears to be a violation of law.

Absent a court decision finding the home as an exception to that law, it is a legal risk to use the VAR or video in your own home. Being the test case would be expensive.

In reality, few cheaters would try to bring charges. But I wouldn't hand them the recording either.


----------



## Abc123wife

jld said:


> Have you separated your money? That will be another wake up call.
> 
> She needs to start feeling what life without you will be like. She needs to feel the new reality setting in.


Isn't that kinda controlling? Lol! So not letting her listen to her last **** with the guy for memories sake is controlling, but separating money to financially force her to stay us not! You are truly funny!


----------



## 3putt

Thor said:


> *I am not sure that recording in one's own home is always legal. My state is a single-party state. If I am not here and record others without their consent, it appears to be a violation of law.*
> 
> Absent a court decision finding the home as an exception to that law, it is a legal risk to use the VAR or video in your own home. Being the test case would be expensive.
> 
> In reality, few cheaters would try to bring charges. But I wouldn't hand them the recording either.


I'm not going here anymore. I've wasted enough time on this nonsense.


----------



## Abc123wife

jld said:


> What pressure are they exerting on her?


If her family and friends are exerting pressure, isn't that kinda controlling? This is so confusing! What actions and by whom are OK and not considered to be controlling?


----------



## jld

Trying to persuade her to come back to the marriage is indeed using influence. I think there is a difference between using influence and outright controlling someone, though. And the counselor seems to have agreed with me that not letting her listen to the recording would have been controlling.

With influence, the person can still say No. When they are being controlled, they cannot say No. Friends and family can often influence us to do something they feel is in our long term best interest, even if we are not able to see it at the time. This is perhaps the case of the OP's wife.

I said they needed to separate money because if they do not reconcile, that is her new reality. Not having full access to his money could be a wake up call.

Yesterday he still seemed to want to stay in the marriage. Today it looks like his desire for that has diminished. As goals change, strategies change.


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> And all she would have to do to feel like she has some control again would be to admit what she did, give her husband a heartfelt apology and beg for his forgiveness. But her sorry-ass pride won't let her do that.
> 
> So divorce it is.


I don't think it is her pride. I think she genuinely has no desire for it right now. 

But that could change. It may change on its own over the coming weeks as she realizes OM is not coming back. It could happen more quickly, depending on the actions of the OP.

I think she is in the Hospital of Emotions, in the critical care unit. She cannot be the leader at this point, and he does not seem to want to be.


----------



## Abc123wife

Bananapeel said:


> The real reason she wants the recording is to try to convince herself they had a real connection. If the OM called her and wanted to meet up just to discuss their relationship one last time she'd do it behind my back in a minute, and then end up on her back a minute later. I'm no fool.


If you feel you have to abide by what the counselor suggested and your wife insists on listening to this recording, make her listen to it with you present. Don't let her enjoy it in a room by herself!


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> I don't think it is her pride. I think she genuinely has no desire for it right now.
> 
> But that could change. It may change on its own over the coming weeks as she realizes OM is not coming back. It could happen more quickly, depending on the actions of the OP.
> 
> I think she is in the Hospital of Emotions, in the critical care unit. She cannot be the leader at this point, and he does not seem to want to be.


Actually I feel like he is leading. She's just not following. And frankly that's probably best.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> Actually I feel like he is leading. She's just not following. And frankly that's probably best.


By leading, I mean deciding to stay in the marriage and look at how he could reattract her, while also asking close friends and family to help him.

But I agree that proceeding towards divorce may be best.


----------



## 3putt

Abc123wife said:


> If you feel you have to abide by what the counselor suggested and your wife insists on listening to this recording, make her listen to it with you present. Don't let her enjoy it in a room by herself!


Too late, unfortunately.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> By leading, I mean deciding to stay in the marriage and look at how he could reattract her, while also asking close friends and family to help him.
> 
> But I agree that proceeding towards divorce may be best.


I think the problem is that she is still hopeful that her true love will divorce his wife, come riding on his white stallion and rescue her. This may have been reinforced by her listening to his post coitus sweet nothings on that damned recording. I don't see why the OP should make a concerted effort to stay in the marriage when the other half of the marriage is demonstrating with actions and words that it would be a useless exercise in frustration to do so. I agree that this marriage is salvageable but both parties must show at least a modicum of desire toward that end. He can lead all he wants but if she walks in the other direction what is the point? I fully expect her to come crawling back at some future date but it seems to me the detachment process has already begun in earnest.


----------



## OldWolf57

BP you don't see it yet, but you are much better off than most BS. True, you are still in the BS fog, but gives thanks for her not trying to fool you with a false R, until he makes contact.
Too many here have had that happened to them, that's why so many DD two.

In your words I see R hope in you, and it's only her that is blocking that.

Dude, it's 180 time for you to start healing. For I see contact between them, and him couching her to fool you for R to give them more time. And yes, she is already trying to throw the weight on you with the "I know how you are" line.

Not one WS has ever been niced back. It's only made it harder on the BS when DD two happened.
Read some threads, and see how many BS come back and say they wish they had listened.

The 180 is for you, it's not about being a hard as, or mean, it's emotional detaching form her, and from what I rad you need that badly.

Sorry it's going like it is, but you are MUCH better off than most.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> I think the problem is that she is still hopeful that her true love will divorce his wife, come riding on his white stallion and rescue her. This may have been reinforced by her listening to his post coitus sweet nothings on that damned recording. I don't see why the OP should make a concerted effort to stay in the marriage when the other half of the marriage is demonstrating with actions and words that it would be a useless exercise in frustration to do so. I agree that this marriage is salvageable but both parties must show at least a modicum of desire toward that end. He can lead all he wants but if she walks in the other direction what is the point? I fully expect her to come crawling back at some point but it seems to me the detachment process has already begun in earnest.


I do think he is detaching, and it may be for the best. I asked yesterday if he thought her family was not persuading her to stay in the marriage because they thought OP and his wife were better off apart. It may be that the marriage has run its course, at least without some significant changes, probably started by him.

He certainly does not have to stay. I do think it could be saved, though, mainly by her coming to reality and his reattracting her. I bet the kids would prefer it that way. Financially they would both be better off staying together.

They are not on an equal footing emotionally right now. She simply is not present. But in a few weeks, she might be.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> By leading, I mean deciding to stay in the marriage and look at how he could reattract her, while also asking close friends and family to help him.
> 
> But I agree that proceeding towards divorce may be best.


Funny, he is leading her, he is doing everything anyone else would ask except you. Now, you throw attraction in like he failed.

If he did this and failed you'd redefine leading, like you do with other words, to fit your view.


----------



## jld

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Funny, he is leading her, he is doing everything anyone else would ask except you. Now, you throw attraction in like he failed.
> 
> If he did this and failed you'd redefine leading, like you do with other words, to fit your view.


How that? 

And how do you see him leading? I think he is exiting the marriage.


----------



## OldWolf57

Oh, you say this started a few months ago, but she was detaching she say for a year and a half. Yes, thats what she was doing, so she is much further along than you. That's why she was proud to say to your face she loved him, and was doing him in your home.
That's a hard truth I know, but the sooner you accept this, the better off you will be, and take any R hope in you off the table.


----------



## badmemory

jld said:


> And the counselor seems to have agreed with me that not letting her listen to the recording would have been controlling.


I disagree. Saying no to an unreasonable request by your spouse is not controlling. If my wife asked me to take $20,000 out of my 401-k (paying a 10% penalty in the process) to buy her a fur coat, and I refuse - that's not controlling, it's common sense.

Now we can debate whether her request is reasonable; and in fact we have. Not too many posters think that it is.


----------



## jld

badmemory said:


> I disagree. Saying no to an unreasonable request by your spouse is not controlling. If my wife asked me to take $20,000 out of my 401-k (paying a 10% penalty in the process) to buy her a fur coat, and I refuse - that's not controlling, it's common sense.
> 
> Now we can debate whether her request is reasonable; and in fact we have. Not too many posters think that it is.


But the counselor did, and that settled it.


----------



## 3putt

jld said:


> But the counselor did, and that settled it.


Score one for the idiot counselor.


----------



## badmemory

jld said:


> But the counselor did, and that settled it.


We can also debate the advice of the counselor; as the OP should have done. 

If I followed the advice from the counselor I saw after Dday, I would have swept her A under the rug, and "looked deep within myself to find out what I did to cause it".


----------



## Abc123wife

jld said:


> I don't think it is her pride. I think she genuinely has no desire for it right now.
> 
> But that could change. It may change on its own over the coming weeks as she realizes OM is not coming back. It could happen more quickly, depending on the actions of the OP.
> 
> I think she is in the Hospital of Emotions, in the critical care unit. She cannot be the leader at this point, and he does not seem to want to be.


In other words, she has no desire now to reconcile, but when she realizes that both the OM and her husband have dumped her, she may rethink her choice in a couple weeks. But, when she changes her mind and goes back to Plan B, then her betrayed husband should woe her back? Yikes, who would want her now? Hopefully, Bananapeel realizes he needs to move on and uses his good senses to LEAD her straight to divorce!


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> I do think he is detaching, and it may be for the best. I asked yesterday if he thought her family was not persuading her to stay in the marriage because they thought OP and his wife were better off apart. It may be that the marriage has run its course, at least without some significant changes, probably started by him.
> 
> He certainly does not have to stay. I do think it could be saved, though, mainly by her coming to reality and his reattracting her. I bet the kids would prefer it that way. Financially they would both be better off staying together.
> 
> They are not on an equal footing emotionally right now. She simply is not present. But in a few weeks, she might be.





phillybeffandswiss said:


> Funny, he is leading her, he is doing everything anyone else would ask except you. Now, you throw attraction in like he failed.
> 
> If he did this and failed you'd redefine leading, like you do with other words, to fit your view.





jld said:


> How that?
> 
> And how do you see him leading? I think he is exiting the marriage.


You can lead a horse to water, but you can't... well, you know the rest.

She has to be the one to take the first step... that leap of faith. She would need to indicate remorse, along w/ a willingness -- nay, DESIRE! -- to atone for her betrayal. (And, _ideally, she'd have done this *BEFORE* hearing OM state that he never had any intention of leaving his wife._) Then comes re-connection. And yes, that will require some attraction... on BOTH their parts. After all, let's not forget that there are few things that will make a wife less attractive to her husband than the idea that another man has been seeding her birth canal.

The bottom line is this: if she can't break through her own stubborn pride to take that first step -- that leap of faith -- toward reconciliation, any effort on OP's part to reconcile will be wasted.

Alternately, maybe it's not worth it to her. Maybe she's holding out for OM and thinks that, if that relationship doesn't work out for her, she can reel OP back in w/ a few tears and a few heaves of her bosom. Hell, plenty of suckers fall for that bit, only to wind up back in the same situation years down the road.

Or maybe she really _does_ think that OP is so set on divorce that there's no point in trying to turn him from that path. (Heh... right.) But would that really keep a remorseful WW -- and a SAHM, no less -- from falling to her knees to beg forgiveness, all the while drenching the floor beneath her in tears? Seems pretty unlikely to me.

Let's face facts... if OM had decided to leave his BW for OP's WW, all of this would be a moot point. They'd be off w/ each other right now, shacked up somewhere and getting ready to spend the entire weekend openly ignoring their families in order to TRULY consummate their relationship.


----------



## jld

badmemory said:


> We can also debate the advice of the counselor; as the OP should have done.
> 
> If I followed the advice from the counselor I saw after Dday, I would have swept her A under the rug, and "looked deep within myself to find out what I did to cause it".


You can't rugsweep. Everything needs to be discussed, put on the table. The affair is a symptom of deeper problems.

Looking within, for both partners, is critical.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> You can't rugsweep. Everything needs to be discussed, put on the table. The affair is a symptom of deeper problems.
> 
> Looking within, for both partners, is critical.


That's fair commentary, at least in most cases.

Honestly, though, I think they'd be better off eschewing a diagnosis in favor of a post-mortem.


----------



## Chaparral

OldWolf57 said:


> Oh, you say this started a few months ago, but she was detaching she say for a year and a half. Yes, thats what she was doing, so she is much further along than you. That's why she was proud to say to your face she loved him, and was doing him in your home.
> That's a hard truth I know, but the sooner you accept this, the better off you will be, and take any R hope in you off the table.


"I started to detach a year and a half ago" is just cheater speak. Like we only kissed.

Either that's when the affair started or it started a little later than that. In any case it tries to justify, blame shift the affair to the BS.

They had a good marriage until one of them had some side action in mind. They started talking, texting or some such turning it into an EA leading to the PA.

In any event the given timeline was furnished by the cheating wife. It literally means nothing.

Exactly when did you notice a change in her behavior?  Have you gone back and and checked the phone/text records for the last couple of years? They were communicating somehow though current records do not show anything.

Another possibility is that the affair started a long time before that and the given timeline was made up to make it look less damaging.

Up to this point, either the Posom is telling the truth to his wife or lying about wanting to reconcile. If he's truthful, your wife is going to realize that. Otherwise, they may still be communicating. Burner phone? How did the Posom know to come over the day the var caught them. Did she use a land line? Was that on the var? I'm guessing it wasn't smoke signals unless he's a neighbor.

Check your past phone records. They probably got things going then switched to something untraceable via texting apps, game apps etc.


----------



## jld

Abc123wife said:


> In other words, she has no desire now to reconcile, but when she realizes that both the OM and her husband have dumped her, she may rethink her choice in a couple weeks. But, when she changes her mind and goes back to Plan B, then her betrayed husband should woe her back? Yikes, who would want her now? Hopefully, Bananapeel realizes he needs to move on and uses his good senses to LEAD her straight to divorce!


He may want a divorce now. We don't really know what she is going to want when she comes out of the fog.

The kids are going to pay. We all know that. OP and his wife's finances are going to take a hit. Reconciliation may still be worth considering if these two factors are taken into account in a few weeks.

Then again, divorce may be the decision they both ultimately ultimately feel most comfortable with.


----------



## azteca1986

jld said:


> How that?
> 
> And how do you see him leading? I think he is exiting the marriage.


You have a strange world view (to put it politely).

He is the only one standing in the marriage. His WW left the marriage sometime before she was recorded sleeping with POSOM in the marital bed.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> You can lead a horse to water, but you can't... well, you know the rest.
> 
> She has to be the one to take the first step... that leap of faith. She would need to indicate remorse, along w/ a willingness -- nay, DESIRE! -- to atone for her betrayal. (And, _ideally, she'd have done this *BEFORE* hearing OM state that he never had any intention of leaving his wife._) Then comes re-connection. And yes, that will require some attraction... on BOTH their parts. After all, let's not forget that there are few things that will make a wife less attractive to her husband than the idea that another man has been seeding her birth canal.
> 
> The bottom line is this: if she can't break through her own stubborn pride to take that first step -- that leap of faith -- toward reconciliation, any effort on OP's part to reconcile will be wasted.
> 
> Alternately, maybe it's not worth it to her. Maybe she's holding out for OM and thinks that, if that relationship doesn't work out for her, she can reel OP back in w/ a few tears and a few heaves of her bosom. Hell, plenty of suckers fall for that bit, only to wind up back in the same situation years down the road.
> 
> Or maybe she really _does_ think that OP is so set on divorce that there's no point in trying to turn him from that path. (Heh... right.) But would that really keep a remorseful WW -- and a SAHM, no less -- from falling to her knees to beg forgiveness, all the while drenching the floor beneath her in tears? Seems pretty unlikely to me.
> 
> Let's face facts... if OM had decided to leave his BW for OP's WW, all of this would be a moot point. They'd be off w/ each other right now, shacked up somewhere and getting ready to spend the entire weekend openly ignoring their families in order to TRULY consummate their relationship.


I wonder if she even knows what he is expecting her to do. Covert contracts going on here, I think.

I hope they will give it some time. She might as well be in an emotional coma. It is not realistic to think she is just going to snap out of it, get out of her hospital bed, and go straight to run a marathon. Not in my opinion, anyway.


----------



## jld

azteca1986 said:


> You have a strange world view (to put it politely).
> 
> He is the only one standing in the marriage. His WW left the marriage sometime before she was recorded sleeping with POSOM in the marital bed.


For sure, the only hope of leadership lies with him. She cannot do it.


----------



## 3putt

azteca1986 said:


> *You have a strange world view (to put it politely).
> *
> He is the only one standing in the marriage. His WW left the marriage sometime before she was recorded sleeping with POSOM in the marital bed.


You said it!


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> I wonder if she even knows what he is expecting her to do. Covert contracts going on here, I think.
> 
> I hope they will give it some time. She might as well be in an emotional coma. It is not realistic to think she is just going to snap out of it, get out of her hospital bed, and go straight to run a marathon. Not in my opinion, anyway.


What?!? How can expecting someone to _at least_ apologize and offer some semblance of recompense for such a brutal betrayal be considered -- by any reasonable person -- a covert contract?


----------



## 3putt

jld said:


> For sure, the only hope of leadership lies with him. She cannot do it.


And you believe leadership begins with him allowing her to listen to a recording of his wife having sex with another man in his own home and marital bed. What was it you called it....transparency?

Got it.


----------



## jld

I think the difference in how we see this situation is that most of you come from equal relationship theory. You see these two as equal and expect them to take equal responsibility. 

I see her as weaker because she is the one who cheated. I don't think cheating is an act of strength.

So if you know someone has cheated, and you see that weakness, you have to both let them see the natural consequences of what they have done (exposing, if necessary, and financial separation, if appropriate), and start looking yourself at what went wrong.

If she felt he was neglecting her, and she started to feel bored, he could take a look at that. He could think of ways to reach out to her, perhaps with the help of a counselor. 

His making that kind of effort might make her think that he is not distant and boring after all. If she feels that, she may start to have hope that the relationship is recoverable. That bit of hope might make her think about what she has done that is hurtful. And then she may reach out to him.

Repair attempts on both sides are needed. But the non-cheater is probably the one who has to go first. They are stronger.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> What?!? How can expecting someone to _at least_ apologize and offer some semblance of recompense for such a brutal betrayal be considered -- by any reasonable person -- a covert contract?


Didn't he say he would need to hear specific things from her to be convinced of her sincerity? Doesn't that sound like a covert contract?

Gus, she is in a fog. I think expectations need to be minimal until she snaps out of it, or he is just going to be disappointed.


----------



## jld

3putt said:


> And you believe leadership begins with him allowing her to listen to a recording of his wife having sex with another man in his own home and marital bed. What was it you called it....transparency?
> 
> Got it.


She was the one recorded, right? Why should she not have the right to hear herself? Honestly, I am surprised it is legal to record people without their permission.


----------



## GusPolinski

azteca1986 said:


> You have a strange world view (to put it politely).


I'll sum it up for you...

Basically it's a "the woman is never truly at fault" mentality. IOW, for a wife to engage in an affair, she must no longer love, respect, or trust her husband. And, since all of that is true, then he must have been lacking in pretty much every way possible in order to drive her to the point where she could conceivably engage in an affair, which means that he basically deserved to be betrayed. And, since all of that is true, once the WW makes even the slightest, half-hearted overture to indicate that she _might_ be willing to entertain the possibility of reconciliation w/ her pathetic BH, the BH should then do everything possible to accommodate her (after all, he OWES it to her), even if that means casting aside whatever shreds of his own pride and dignity remain in order to perform all of the heavy lifting required to rebuild their marriage, even in the face of her own lukewarm attempts (or outright refusal) to do so.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> I'll sum it up for you...
> 
> Basically it's a "the woman is never truly at fault" mentality. IOW, for a wife to engage in an affair, she must no longer love, respect, or trust her husband. And, since all of that is true, then he must have been lacking in pretty much every way possible in order to drive her to the point where she could conceivably engage in an affair, which means that he basically deserved to be betrayed. And, since all of that is true, once the WW makes even the slightest, half-hearted overture to indicate that she _might_ be willing to entertain the possibility of reconciliation w/ her pathetic BH, the BH should then do everything possible to accommodate her (after all, he OWES it to her), even if that means casting aside whatever shreds of his own pride and dignity remain in order to perform all of the heavy lifting required to rebuild their marriage, even in the face of her own lukewarm attempts (or outright refusal) to do so.


I think you are exaggerating, Gus.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Didn't he say he would need to hear specific things from her to be convinced of her sincerity? Doesn't that sound like a covert contract?


LOL. No. 



jld said:


> Gus, she is in a fog. I think expectations need to be minimal until she snaps out of it, or he is just going to be disappointed.


Fog or no, I think that OP's expectations w/ respect to his WW should be minimal... period. Let her PROVE herself worth of any consideration outside of that. At this point, she's not entitled to a damn thing that she's not willing to earn.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Fog or no, I think that OP's expectations w/ respect to his WW should be minimal... period. Let her PROVE herself worth of any consideration outside of that. At this point, she's not entitled to a damn thing that she's not willing to earn.


He can certainly do that. At some point they will both have to work on the reconciliation, though. It takes two. *If* they decide to reconcile.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> I think you are exaggerating, Gus.


And yet your own words -- time and time again -- have convinced me of all of that.

And I'm probably not the only one.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> He can certainly do that. At some point they will both have to work on the reconciliation, though. It takes two.


Yes. But she needs to be the one to get the ball rolling.

One cannot lead those who will not be lead.


----------



## 3putt

jld said:


> I think you are exaggerating, Gus.


No, he's not. If anything, it's an understatement.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Yes. But she needs to be the one to get the ball rolling.
> 
> One cannot lead those who will not be lead.


You are asking her to get up and carry all the luggage when she is lying in a hospital bed. It is not going to happen. She needs to come out of the coma first. 

And realistically, they are _both_ going to have to carry the luggage. _If_ they want to travel together.


----------



## Abc123wife

jld said:


> I wonder if she even knows what he is expecting her to do. Covert contracts going on here, I think.
> 
> I hope they will give it some time. She might as well be in an emotional coma. It is not realistic to think she is just going to snap out of it, get out of her hospital bed, and go straight to run a marathon. Not in my opinion, anyway.


Seriously now, do you really think he needs to tell his WW that he expects the woman who pledged vows to him to not declare her love for another man and to not insist on listening to the recording of her and her lover's screw session in the marital bed? Are those things a man has to state to his wife. And if he doesn't, then he obviously has a covert contract going on and is not leading his wife in the marriage properly? She is in an emotional coma? But she knew all along what was going on. Her husband has just found out that his wife has blown up their marriage and family! And now you think he is the one responsible to get her out of her cheating fog? He is supposed to go run a marathon and carry her along kicking and screaming about her love of another? 

I hate to say it and may get in trouble for it, but you give worse advice than their crazy MC!


----------



## jld

3putt said:


> No, he's not. If anything, it's an understatement.


No one _owes_ anyone reconciliation. But true reconciliation takes _two._ And a lot of patience, humility, and transparency.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> You are asking her to get up and carry all the luggage when she is lying in a hospital bed. It is not going to happen. She needs to come out of the coma first.


Pfft, whatever. If she's in a hospital bed, then OP is in on a slab in the f*cking morgue.



jld said:


> And realistically, they are _both_ going to have to carry the luggage. _If_ they want to travel together.


True. _But *SHE* needs to be the one to pack it._


----------



## Chaparral

Its not surprising she says she doesn't think OP could not reconcile. Its a logical conclusion. Right now she is twisting in the wind. What she thought was reality has been jerked out from under her..........maybe, depending on Posom's true intentions.

Some wayward wives fight like junk yard dogs to save their marriages. Some turn on their affair partners like banshees when they finally realize they've been played. Some simply give up and slink away like a beaten dog losing all hope. Quite a few here have attempted suicide, some successfully.

Thinking a ww is going to immediately jump to reconciliation is not realistic.

I don't recommend reconciliation or divorce, that depends on those involved. People do stupid things. People get played. People pick the wrong way to end a marriage. There are websites devoted to playing married women. People are vulnerable.


----------



## 3putt

jld said:


> You are asking her to get up and carry all the luggage when she is lying in a hospital bed. It is not going to happen. She needs to come out of the coma first.
> 
> And realistically, they are _both_ going to have to carry the luggage. _If_ they want to travel together.


Just what Utopian planet do you live on??

I'm dead serious here.


----------



## jld

Abc123wife said:


> Seriously now, do you really think he needs to tell his WW that he expects his wife that had vows with her husband to not declare her love for another man and to not insist on listening to the recording of her and her lover's screw session in the marital bed? Are those things a man has to state to his wife. And if he doesn't, then he obviously has a overt contract going on and is not leading his wife in the marriage properly? She is in an emotional coma? But she knew all along what was going on. Her husband has just found out that his wife has blown up their marriage and family! And now you think he is the one responsible to get her out if her cheating fog? He is supposed to go run a marathon and carry her along kicking and screaming about her live of another?
> 
> I hate to say it and may get in trouble for it, but you give worse advice than Their crazy MC!


He benefits from hearing a variety of views. That is the purpose of a forum.

Reconciliation is voluntary. It cannot be imposed. But the stronger partner can lead the way more effectively. He is not in the fog.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Pfft, whatever. If she's in a hospital bed, then OP is in on a slab in the f*cking morgue.
> 
> True. _But *SHE* needs to be the one to pack it._


I think OP is doing pretty well. He is calm and rational. She is not.

Give her some time. Patience.


----------



## azteca1986

GusPolinski said:


> Pfft, whatever. If she's in a hospital bed, then OP is in on a slab in the f*cking morgue.


With a knife in his back put there with quiet deliberation by the "coma patient".


----------



## jld

3putt said:


> Just what Utopian planet do you live on??
> 
> I'm dead serious here.


I think I am very realistic. Still over in Considering Divorce listened to me and now he is reconciling, happily.


----------



## jld

azteca1986 said:


> With a knife in his back put there with quiet deliberation by the "coma patient".


If you want to solve the problem, you have to try to see both sides. I understand my idea does not seem fair. But in the long run, if it brings about a successful, true reconciliation, does it really matter who swallowed some pride and got things going?


----------



## 3putt

jld said:


> I think I am very realistic. Still over in Considering Divorce listened to me and now he is reconciling, happily.


Has he been the victim of adultery and actually listened to his wife banging another man in his own bed?


----------



## jld

3putt said:


> Has he been the victim of adultery and actually listened to his wife banging another man in his own bed?


No, it had not gone that far. But I think the curative principles are the same.

3putt, it does not have to be all over for bananapeel. Not if he does not want it to be.

But pursuing divorce is certainly understandable, too.


----------



## Abc123wife

jld said:


> He benefits from hearing a variety of views. That is the purpose of a forum.
> 
> Reconciliation is voluntary. It cannot be imposed. But the stronger partner can lead the way more effectively. He is not in the fog.


Can you cite any source, besides yourself, that suggests that reconciliation is possible before the cheating spouse is truly remorseful and willing to do the heavy lifting in repairing the damage they have done? Give us one source that suggests that the betrayed spouse needs to be the one to lead the cheater back to loving the betrayed. It does not work like that. That will NEVER work! At best, it will do nothing but rugsweep the betrayal.


----------



## 3putt

jld said:


> No, it had not gone that far. But I think the curative principles are the same.
> 
> 3putt, it does not have to be all over for bananapeel. Not if he does not want it to be.
> 
> But pursuing divorce is certainly understandable, too.


The curative principles may be the same WAYYYY down the road in the case of adultery, but they shouldn't be introduced until a good foundation for recovery is even established, and he's on marital quicksand as we speak. And she's still full of sh!t and lying through her teeth.

Right now, this man is living in a hurricane of emotions spawned from the worst trauma a spouse can even conceive of. And actually hearing it on tape makes it 1000 times worse than for most of us.

It's not even *close* to the time for your approach.

Not even close. I cannot believe you can't see this.


----------



## azteca1986

jld said:


> If you want to solve the problem, you have to try to see both sides.


No. To solve a problem you first have to understand what you're dealing with. This is a quote from "After the Affair"

_When I was fifteen, I was raped. That was nothing compared to your affair. The rapist was a stranger; you, I thought, were my best friend._

1. With your coma patient analogy you are glossing over the fact that it's OP that has be brutalised here. Deliberately.
2. No amount of "leadership" will get past the fact WW has stated she loves POSOM and doesn't want to reconcile
3. This means the affair is not over, merely dormant
4. She brought POSOM to her marital bed. Not only is this a massive FU to OP, this is the same bed that their kids come running to when they have nightmares. It used to be a safe haven for the _whole family_.


> I understand my idea does not seem fair. But in the long run, if it brings about a successful, true reconciliation, does it really matter who swallowed some pride and got things going?


It's not a case of OP swallowing some fvcking pride.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I'll reply to your weird use of leader later, but this is ridiculous.


jld said:


> Didn't he say he would need to hear specific things from her to be convinced of her sincerity? Doesn't that sound like a covert contract?Doesn't that sound like a covert contract?
> .


What you conveniently rewrote could possibly be a cover contract. 

This is honesty and expectations, not a cover contract.



Bananapeel said:


> Thanks for all the advice. We've been having a lot of very honest conversations lately and at least I know where I stand and the family stands in her eyes (we're #2). She wants to reconcile but doesn't understand what that means. She thinks its us working on strengthening our marriage and forgiving. What she doesn't see is that the only way for me to R is to see her infatuation for OM turn to outright hate for the damage he helped cause to our family. I'd need to know she'd crawl through the pits of hell for the good of our family because we are #1 in her eyes again, regardless of the toll it would take on her. She is embarrassed now and wants to hide, when in reality she should be calling my parents/friends/religious leader, and apologizing and pleading with them to try to convince me to stay because her shame is less important than what she'd lose by hiding from it. I am her safety blanket. I provide emotional and financial security and give her a very easy life. She wants that again, but not the commitment to me that is required to get it. I see no option other than D at this point, but for the good of the kids we decided to wait a couple of weeks for our emotions to settle before we finalize that plan.
> 
> Again, thanks for the help and support. I'm going to take some time by myself to think and then visit my family for a while.


Limbo is for suckers while someone steadfastly states and through action shows they love someone else. 

Hurry up and wait is for traffic jams, not infidelity based love.


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> I think I am very realistic. Still over in Considering Divorce listened to me and now he is reconciling, happily.


This post is for Bananapeel's benefit, not an intent to engage in discussion. It is to give him some background for evaluation of your advice, which you are of course free to give.

I believe you mean well. 

I point out that you have absolutely no real world personal experience of how it feels to choose between marriage and divorce, or to the emotional toll of reconciliation, or the lasting damage infidelity does to even a successfully reconciled marriage. You've not been there. 

Look at things you are posting to a man who is in the process of losing his wife and his kids' mother. At every step of the way Bananapeel's wife has cheated, lied, trashed her family, and shown no considerations for the feelings of her husband, her kids or the affair partner's family. He has tried to find ways to put things back together. She has refused. She won't attend counseling and says it's his fault. 

And you want to talk about sympathy for her emotions and his lack of leadership....

Bottom line, reconciliation takes two. And she's still too busy taking a chainsaw to the marriage - and Bananapeel's heart by the way.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> I think I am very realistic. Still over in Considering Divorce listened to me and now he is reconciling, happily.


Completely different dynamic. And if you can't see that, you should probably stick to Still's thread.


----------



## 3putt

Wazza said:


> This post is for Bananapeel's benefit, not an intent to engage in discussion. It is to give him some background for evaluation of your advice, which you are of course free to give.
> 
> I believe you mean well.
> 
> I point out that you have absolutely no real world personal experience of how it feels to choose between marriage and divorce, or to the emotional toll of reconciliation, or the lasting damage infidelity does to even a successfully reconciled marriage. You've not been there.
> 
> Look at things you are posting to a man who is in the process of losing his wife and his kids' mother. At every step of the way Bananapeel's wife has cheated, lied, trashed her family, and shown no considerations for the feelings of her husband, her kids or the affair partner's family. He has tried to find ways to put things back together. She has refused. She won't attend counseling and says it's his fault.
> 
> And you want to talk about sympathy for her emotions and his lack of leadership....
> 
> Bottom line, reconciliation takes two. And she's still too busy taking a chainsaw to the marriage - and Bananapeel's heart by the way.


Much better stated that what I've apparently been able to produce.


----------



## ThePheonix

jld said:


> But the stronger partner can lead the way more effectively. He is not in the fog.


Why would he want put himself in that position where he's doing all the work and trying to sell his wife, who has all but advertised her contempt for him on a billboard, on reconciliation, likely ending with failure and him, once again getting blamed because the "good marriage" never materilized? Why would he want to put that kind of effort in this project when the OM may, and probably will, call and jumpstart the affair? Why is it not more pragmatic for him to simply replace her with a new and better quality model?


----------



## jld

Abc123wife said:


> Can you cite any source, besides yourself, that suggests that reconciliation is possible before the cheating spouse is truly remorseful and willing to do the heavy lifting in repairing the damage they have done? Give us one source that suggests that the betrayed spouse needs to be the one to lead the cheater back to loving the betrayed. It does not work like that. That will NEVER work! At best, it will do nothing but rugsweep the betrayal.


This is what I recommended to Still. He wrote the letter the way this ministry recommends it. His wife said it was one of the things that moved her to consider reconciliation.

Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife


----------



## jld

3putt said:


> The curative principles may be the same WAYYYY down the road in the case of adultery, but they shouldn't be introduced until a good foundation for recovery is even established, and he's on marital quicksand as we speak. And she's still full of sh!t and lying through her teeth.
> 
> Right now, this man is living in a hurricane of emotions spawned from the worst trauma a spouse can even conceive of. And actually hearing it on tape makes it 1000 times worse than for most of us.
> 
> It's not even *close* to the time for your approach.
> 
> Not even close. I cannot believe you can't see this.


I am an optimist.


----------



## bfree

The point is this. The OP has done everything to try to clear the fog from his wife's mind and lay the groundwork for an attempt at reconciliation. She's just not interested and any further attempts (what has been referred to as leading) would be (rightfully) seen as manipulation and controlling. If someday as I suspect his wife decides that reconciliation is in her best interest and tries to convince the OP to stay in the marriage I believe her words will fall on deaf ears. If she tries, as so many WW have before, to guilt him into it by claiming she "made a mistake," "he owes her a second chance," or "do it for the children" that will also be manipulation and controlling. The simple fact is that you can only be manipulated and controlled if you allow it. At its core infidelity IS manipulation and only by breaking the cycle can anyone caught in its wake truly begin to heal. I think the OP is on the right path and I pray he can somehow minimize the damage to himself and his children.


----------



## jld

azteca1986 said:


> No. To solve a problem you first have to understand what you're dealing with. This is a quote from "After the Affair"
> 
> _When I was fifteen, I was raped. That was nothing compared to your affair. The rapist was a stranger; you, I thought, were my best friend._
> 
> 1. With your coma patient analogy you are glossing over the fact that it's OP that has be brutalised here. Deliberately.
> 2. No amount of "leadership" will get past the fact WW has stated she loves POSOM and doesn't want to reconcile
> 3. This means the affair is not over, merely dormant
> 4. She brought POSOM to her marital bed. Not only is this a massive FU to OP, this is the same bed that their kids come running to when they have nightmares. It used to be a safe haven for the _whole family_.
> It's not a case of OP swallowing some fvcking pride.


We want to bring the WW back to reality as quickly as possible. That is why I was stressing transparency and enlisting the help of her dear ones.

I know it is hard to understand, but she is hurting right now. She probably did not feel loved for a long time, and then she felt the OM loved her. And all of a sudden, she feels abandoned. Even if he never loved her, her heart is still broken. That is where she is, feeling lost, alone, abandoned. Or soon will be, when she realizes OM is not going to leave his wife.

It was very good that OP showed her the bolded piece from Chap. She cried. She knows the truth, deep down. Hope may spring eternal, but eventually reality seeps in. That is when she will be repentant, if he does the right things now.

People have been cheating for many, many centuries, azteca. There was not enough money or resources to change out the bed every time adultery was discovered. 

I know OP is hurting, too. He has been handling it very well. I am impressed with his calmness and rationality. OP, I think we all salute you.


----------



## jld

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I'll reply to your weird use of leader later, but this is ridiculous.
> What you conveniently rewrote could possibly be a cover contract.
> 
> This is honesty and expectations, not a cover contract.
> 
> This is from my post #396, correct? It was not written twice. Did you do that?
> 
> Go back and look at what he expected to hear. Isn't expecting to hear specific things without clarifying your expectations directly a covert contract?
> 
> Limbo is for suckers while someone steadfastly states and through action shows they love someone else.
> 
> Hurry up and wait is for traffic jams, not infidelity based love.


Again, patience could give him options.

The counselor suggested waiting a month, and doing some more counseling sessions. By the fourth of July, things might look different.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Again, patience could give him options.
> 
> The counselor suggested waiting a month, and doing some more counseling sessions. *By the fourth of July, things might look different.*


For sure. With her Plan A out of reach, Plan B will be looking much better.


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> This post is for Bananapeel's benefit, not an intent to engage in discussion. It is to give him some background for evaluation of your advice, which you are of course free to give.
> 
> I believe you mean well.
> 
> I point out that you have absolutely no real world personal experience of how it feels to choose between marriage and divorce, or to the emotional toll of reconciliation, or the lasting damage infidelity does to even a successfully reconciled marriage. You've not been there.
> 
> Look at things you are posting to a man who is in the process of losing his wife and his kids' mother. At every step of the way Bananapeel's wife has cheated, lied, trashed her family, and shown no considerations for the feelings of her husband, her kids or the affair partner's family. He has tried to find ways to put things back together. She has refused. She won't attend counseling and says it's his fault.
> 
> And you want to talk about sympathy for her emotions and his lack of leadership....
> 
> Bottom line, reconciliation takes two. And she's still too busy taking a chainsaw to the marriage - and Bananapeel's heart by the way.


Still's situation was similar. And 6 months later, after Still reached out to her in empathy, and with leadership, he and his wife are happily reconciling.

If he still has any inclination to reconcile -- and it is perfectly understandable if he does not -- he is probably going to have to lead the way in empathy, at least initially. She cannot do it. If she could, she would have already done it. And in a few weeks, she may be able to reach out to him, too.

But it is his choice. Divorce is also an option.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Completely different dynamic. And if you can't see that, you should probably stick to Still's thread.


Still's wife was also unfaithful, did not want to reconcile initially, had children, one with Still, was attached to the OM. I think there are a lot of similarities.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> She probably did not feel loved for a long time, and then she felt the OM loved her. .


This is blame shifting and excuse making not optimism.

Wazza said it much better, but here you go:



jld said:


> How that?
> 
> And how do you see him leading?


Taking decisive action.


Bananapeel said:


> I spoke with a lawyer. The lawyer said to consider R first and get counseling since there were kids involved and to take some time to think things over and not act rashly while I am emotional. He said after that to proceed with D.


Worrying about the wife and kids.


Bananapeel said:


> I can't expose her like that. Too big of a risk to the kids. I'd be happy keeping the details private so we can have a better chance of working together through this mess in a way that is easiest for the kids. Either way, R or D, we both will have a hand in raising the kids and need to be able to be civil.


Worrying about the wife.


Bananapeel said:


> That's the plan right after I talk with my wife. Dealing with him is lower on the priority list since he has no value to me. But he will be addressed.


Worrying about the wife.


Bananapeel said:


> I'm outwardly calm but an emotional wreck right now. She's meeting me in a private place in a few hours so we can talk.


Making no decisions.


Bananapeel said:


> At this point all I am going to do is talk with her. I just need this to be out in the open and then I'll go from there.


Worry about the OM's wife:


Bananapeel said:


> OK, here's the update. I confronted her on Friday and she lied and denied until I told her how I found out then she admitted to the whole thing. She said she is in love with the OM and he is in love with her. I then went to the OM's wife and told her, and she was grateful. OM's wife confronted her husband and he said he wasn't in love with my wife and called her to end the relationship.


Giving his wife an out for reconciliation.


Bananapeel said:


> So where to go from here. We have had several open/honest conversations (finally) and I am satisfied with the info I got. We are going to work in the best interest of our children and meet with a counselor to discuss how and when to tell them about D. My wife wondered if we could R, but I told her I don't have the choice to even consider R since she is in love with someone else. We agreed to make no major decisions for a few weeks, until our emotions subside and then we can work on the D. I'm getting attorney recommendations from a friend in a few days. I'm sure my wife wants to work past this from the point of insecurity, since she'll have neither relationship. But that isn't enough to have a marriage.


Worrying about the wife.


Bananapeel said:


> I expect all of that from them, which is why I can't see a R happening. She is going to want validation from him that their relationship wasn't hollow and will accept any lies he says so she can convince herself of it. As soon as his wife finally kicks him out is about when he'll contact her again. I hope she can pull herself out of the fog because she is going to have to heal too if she wants to ever gain control of her life again, and now I can't be there for her to help her through it.


Worrying about the wife.


Bananapeel said:


> The weird thing for me is no matter how hurt I am I still feel like I have a responsibility to try to bring her back to reality. I did something that was probably really stupid, but I wrote her a letter to try to snap her out of the fog. I'm sure she'll see it and read it in a couple of hours. I don't know why, but I really want her to get better and figure out an honorable life direction from here forward.
> 
> I'm not too worried about the finances. She knows she is going to get a large settlement from me and she is going to need it to start over, so she has no reason to waste that money now on frivolous junk. There will be a lot of financial insecurity for her in the future and she recognizes it and sees her need to prepare. She is going to have a major decrease in lifestyle quality.
> 
> I'll make an effort to work out and take care of myself. I've always exercised regularly and kept in good physical shape, but the past couple of days I just can't seem to get the motivation to do anything other than hang out with my kids. I'll talk with a counselor tomorrow. I'll also talk with my doctor when I go in for the STD check.


Leaders sacrifice and lead by example. He has repeatedly shown and told her what he needed to work on this marriage. 
Even after she said she was in love with the guy. 
Even after the guy threw her under the bus.
Even after he told her how they could R.
Even after he kept an unnecessarily made promise.
Even after they went to counseling she didn't want.


Basically, putting EVERYONE else first until options are exhausted or untenable makes a person a leader. He even wrote her a letter, she ignored, while being worried if she will be okay. All while you complain she is in a coma because of the fog. 

You know what else leaders do? hey take charge and make the hard decisions everyone else is afraid, fogged in or too comatose to make.




jld said:


> I think he is exiting the marriage.


He is now, he said so. Before, he was willing to work on things. See above.


----------



## 3putt

jld said:


> Again, patience could give him options.
> 
> The counselor suggested waiting a month, and doing some more counseling sessions. By the fourth of July, things might look different.


What the counselor suggests is irrelevant because it's well established here he has no idea what he's talking about and has no clue about the fallout of adultery, let alone what steps should be taken if BP so chooses to....much like you. 

What BP said about not being second choice or Plan B is indeed relevant. What part of this is so damned difficult for you to comprehend??

You are, without a doubt, the most hard headed and self righteous individual I have ever run across....and that's saying something.

SMH


----------



## jld

ThePheonix said:


> Why would he want put himself in that position where he's doing all the work and trying to sell his wife, who has all but advertised her contempt for him on a billboard, on reconciliation, likely ending with failure and him, once again getting blamed because the "good marriage" never materilized? Why would he want to put that kind of effort in this project when the OM may, and probably will, call and jumpstart the affair? Why is it not more pragmatic for him to simply replace her with a new and better quality model?


Pheonix, you are a practical man. You know why women have affairs. I think you and I both know bananapeel can turn this around . . . if he is willing to do the work to reattract her, and to not let her lie to herself.

Bananapeel can certainly divorce and find someone else. He is a good man. 

But I think he still loves his wife, deep down in there, and I know he loves his kids. His kids _will_ pay a price for a divorce, and his finances will be hit. On a strictly practical level, it is worth his time to at least consider a possible reconciliation.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Still's wife was also unfaithful, did not want to reconcile initially, had children, one with Still, was attached to the OM. I think there are a lot of similarities.


Again, different circumstances and relationship dynamics.

And, IIRC, the following is true of Still's wife...

* She's a serial cheater. ETA: Additionally, Still was the OM in the relationship that ended her first marriage.

* She left Still for a relationship w/ an EAP that didn't even realize he _was_ an EAP (i.e. one-sided EA that was never emotionally or physically consummated).

* She agreed to consider reconciliation only AFTER it was painfully apparent to her that the relationship w/ her EAP wasn't going anywhere. Additionally, Still seems to be OK w/ this.

Based on ^this^, I'd say that your work in Still's thread isn't quite the credential that you'd like for it to be.


----------



## jld

Philly, those examples are good ones. But they are from before the meeting with the counselor. As I understand it now, he is leaning more towards divorce. 

But even that could help her snap out of the fog. For sure, she has to be made to realize, I hope quickly, what is being lost. Her life, and the life of the family, is not going to be the same.

Bananapeel, do you want me to stop mentioning reconciliation? I will, if you are set on divorce. Maybe you have decided definitively. That is understandable.

But if you want to consider reconciliation, I think there is still plenty of hope. Please let me know if I can be of assistance. I wish you peace.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Again, different circumstances and relationship dynamics.
> 
> And, IIRC, the following is true of Still's wife...
> 
> * She's a serial cheater.
> 
> * She left Still for a relationship w/ an EAP that didn't even realize he _was_ an EAP (i.e. one-sided EA that was never emotionally or physically consummated).
> 
> * She agreed to consider reconciliation only AFTER it was painfully apparent to her that the relationship w/ her EAP wasn't going anywhere. Additionally, Still seems to be OK w/ this.
> 
> Based on ^this^, I'd say that your work in Still's thread isn't quite the credential that you'd like for it to be.


Still and his wife are happily reconciling six months on. I think he is seeing his son every day now, and his wife will be moving in with him again soon, saving them money. And part of the reason for all this is the help he got from the Reconciling with a Hardened Wife link.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Still and his wife are happily reconciling six months on. I think he is seeing his son every day now, and his wife will be moving in with him again soon, saving them money. And part of the reason for all this is the help he got from the Reconciling with a Hardened Wife link.


Maybe I need to revisit the thread, because the last time I took a look at it, he was still settling for scraps from his WW. That doesn't quite meet my personal threshold for a happy reconciliation.

But hey... to each his own.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> Philly, those examples are good ones. But they are from before the meeting with the counselor. As I understand it now, he is leaning more towards divorce.


No, the promise to play the recording was AFTER the counseling session. When she showed no remorse, no worry for the family and shifted blame the divorce was on. He took the lead and made the hard and smart decision.


----------



## jld

phillybeffandswiss said:


> No, the promise to play the recording was AFTER the counseling session. When she showed no remorse, no worry for the family and shifted blame the divorce was on. He took the lead and made the hard and smart decision.


The examples you gave of leadership were from before his counseling session yesterday, correct?

When I am talking about leadership, I am talking about it in terms of putting the marriage back together and preserving the family. 

But his pursuing a divorce could snap her back into reality, too, so it may also achieve those goals.


----------



## Thor

A covert contract is doing A while expecting the other person to do B in return. Except the other person doesn't even know this deal exists. e.g. I wash the dishes and expect my wife to give me sex in return. She doesn't know of this expectation, therefore the contract is only in my mind, and is secret (covert) from her. The Nice Guy would get upset he didn't get sex, because his wife owed it to him. Except she had no idea there was a quid pro quo of her giving sex when he did the dishes.

In this thread, OP expects to see real remorse and an apology if he is going to consider R. That's not a covert contract. He is looking for concrete actions on her part to demonstrate authentic remorse.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> The examples you gave of leadership were from before his counseling session yesterday, correct?


No, they are from beginning to end.


----------



## jld

phillybeffandswiss said:


> No, they are from beginning to end.


Well, all the ones I see that you listed were from before his counseling session yesterday. Which ones did you think were not?


----------



## jld

Thor said:


> A covert contract is doing A while expecting the other person to do B in return. Except the other person doesn't even know this deal exists. e.g. I wash the dishes and expect my wife to give me sex in return. She doesn't know of this expectation, therefore the contract is only in my mind, and is secret (covert) from her. The Nice Guy would get upset he didn't get sex, because his wife owed it to him. Except she had no idea there was a quid pro quo of her giving sex when he did the dishes.
> 
> In this thread, OP expects to see real remorse and an apology if he is going to consider R. That's not a covert contract. He is looking for concrete actions on her part to demonstrate authentic remorse.


But if he does not tell her directly what he expects to see, that is a covert contract, right? He is looking for certain things that to him demonstrate remorse. But she does not know that, or does not know specifically what he wants.

In a few weeks, he may be seeing those things from her. And telling her specifically what he wants to see would let her know for sure what to do.

"Wife, if you want to reconcile, here are the things you must do: _(proceed with list)_."


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Maybe I need to revisit the thread, because the last time I took a look at it, he was still settling for scraps from his WW. That doesn't quite meet my personal threshold for a happy reconciliation.
> 
> But hey... to each his own.


This is Still's last post, from four days ago:

_Just checking in.
We are 4 days in to our family vacation. 2 days left.
It's been really good.
There is little concern at this point that we aren't on the right track.

Still a couple issues. I've learned that there are some things that are "just the way she is" and as I've grown less sensitive to them we've avoided potential arguments and whatever those may lead to and increased our sex life and all-around happier moments.

I don't know that things may ever be perfectly but it's getting to the point where it has the potential to be the best that it has ever been and to be that way a lot more consistently.

I was on the treadmill this morning and Joel Osteen was on the tv so I left it on. He was talking about how sometimes, like a plant, we are cut down when we might least expect and think that whatever was significant at the moment is now dead or dying...he likened to a gardener pruning the plants so that instead of killing them, they will actually grow stronger than before and more beautiful.

I liked that. I felt that related pretty well to us.

We are stronger now for all of this, we are mainly just cleaning up the familial and financial messes that were created in the meantime.

It's getting there, for sure.

Thanks again to all involved in this arduous period in my life._


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> Which ones did you think were not?


No "think," I already explained one. You are skimming and just reading the Quotes. 

Also, you are moving the goal posts so, I'm done with this exchange.


----------



## Abc123wife

jld said:


> This is what I recommended to Still. He wrote the letter the way this ministry recommends it. His wife said it was one of the things that moved her to consider reconciliation.
> 
> Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife


I don't think that article has anything to do with a cheating wife who destroys her marriage and family by having an affair and telling her husband she loves her AP.

As the article states' the hardened wife "Likely, she has been hurt over and over, and finally decided she will tolerate no more emotional pain. Her leaving may have been an attempt to coerce her husband to change, but more often it has been a desperate effort to survive. She sincerely believes that she cannot endure any more heartache, so she has reached out and grabbed onto the separation like a drowning swimmer clings to a life ring." And further "The man who hopes to reconcile with a wounded wife must first realize that for her to return to him will require that she trust and forgive him."

You actually think this article applies here? So are you saying by referring to this article that Bananapeel caused his wife to become hardened and to cheat? What emotional pain did he inflict on her to cause her to cheat? And now Bananapeel must build her trust and get her to forgive him?!!! 

Is this your explanation of any woman that cheats on her husband? Does the same apply to men who cheat on their wives? Is there an equivalent article for reconciling with the hardened cheating husband (no pun intended, lol)!


----------



## jld

Abc123wife said:


> I don't think that article has anything to do with a cheating who destroys her marriage and family by having an affair and telling her husband she lives her AP.
> 
> As the article states' the hardened wife "Likely, she has been hurt over and over, and finally decided she will tolerate no more emotional pain. Her leaving may have been an attempt to coerce her husband to change, but more often it has been a desperate effort to survive. She sincerely believes that she cannot endure any more heartache, so she has reached out and grabbed onto the separation like a drowning swimmer clings to a life ring." And further "The man who hopes to reconcile with a wounded wife must first realize that for her to return to him will require that she trust and forgive him."
> 
> You actually think this article applies here? So are you saying by referring to this article that Bananapeel caused his wife to become hardened and to cheat? What emotional pain did he inflict on her to cause her to cheat? And now Bananapeel must build her trust and get her to forgive him?!!!
> 
> Is this your explanation of any woman that cheats on her husband? Does the same apply to men who cheat on their wives? Is there an equivalent article for reconciling with the hardened cheating husband (no pun intended, lol)!


It is the article that Still used to get reconciliation going with his wife. The website has a companion article called My Wife Is Having An Affair, and it suggests following the same guidelines as in the Hardened Wife article.

I suppose it seems counterintuitive, but as Still's case shows, it works.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> This is Still's last post, from four days ago:
> 
> _Just checking in.
> We are 4 days in to our family vacation. 2 days left.
> It's been really good.
> There is little concern at this point that we aren't on the right track.
> 
> Still a couple issues. I've learned that there are some things that are "just the way she is" and as I've grown less sensitive to them we've avoided potential arguments and whatever those may lead to and increased our sex life and all-around happier moments.
> 
> I don't know that things may ever be perfectly but it's getting to the point where it has the potential to be the best that it has ever been and to be that way a lot more consistently.
> 
> I was on the treadmill this morning and Joel Osteen was on the tv so I left it on. He was talking about how sometimes, like a plant, we are cut down when we might least expect and think that whatever was significant at the moment is now dead or dying...he likened to a gardener pruning the plants so that instead of killing them, they will actually grow stronger than before and more beautiful.
> 
> I liked that. I felt that related pretty well to us.
> 
> We are stronger now for all of this, we are mainly just cleaning up the familial and financial messes that were created in the meantime.
> 
> It's getting there, for sure.
> 
> Thanks again to all involved in this arduous period in my life._


I think it's safe to say that we're reading that very differently.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> I think it's safe to say that we're reading that very differently.


What do you think we see differently? Feel free to comment over on his thread if you think it might be a threadjack here. My apologies, bananapeel.


----------



## Abc123wife

jld said:


> It is the article that Still used to get reconciliation going with his wife. The website has a companion article called My Wife Is Having An Affair, and it suggests following the same guidelines as in the Hardened Wife article.
> 
> I suppose it seems counterintuitive, but as Still's case shows, it works.


No, I am not convinced it actually truly works. It seems it may "work" for those desperate enough to put aside their wants and needs entirely to sacrifice for kids or for fear of not being able to move on to anything else. Just because you don't divorce doesn't mean you are reconciled and that your marriage ever recovers. 

From what I read between the lines of Still's posts, I think he accepted his lot in life and because his wife suddenly decided it was in her best interest (not lose her children to her first husband due to her impending 2nd possible divorce), she wanted to try to reconcile. Not sure it is the ideal or that he is thrilled or overjoyed in his marriage. They are still not living in the same house yet, are they? I could be reading into things but even his update that you cut and pasted seems that he is settling in many ways with accepting the things that are her bad qualities as just the way she is and hopes that their sex life improves at some time? That does not sound like a wonderful and exciting reconciliation to me.


----------



## jld

Abc123wife said:


> No, I am not convinced it actually truly works. It seems it may "work" for those desperate enough to put aside their wants and needs entirely to sacrifice for kids or for fear of not being able to move on to anything else. Just because you don't divorce doesn't mean you are reconciled and that your marriage ever recovers.
> 
> From what I read between the lines of Still's posts, I think he accepted his lot in life and because his wife suddenly decided it was in her best interest (not lose her children to her first husband due to her impending 2nd possible divorce), she wanted to try to reconcile. Not sure it is the ideal or that he is thrilled or overjoyed in his marriage. They are still not living in the same house yet, are they? I could be reading into things but even his update that you cut and pasted seems that he is settling in many ways with accepting the things that are her bad qualities as just the way she is and hopes that their sex life improves at some time? That does not sound like a wonderful and exciting reconciliation to me.


I think he seems happy. He specifically said their "sex life and happier moments" had increased.

From the second to last update, about 3 weeks ago, it looks like they are living together, or soon will be (probably are now):

_She brought boxes of clothes in today. Reorganized our closet...meaning she cleaned it up and put all my stuff back to my original side. 
I took a picture of her putting a wall decoration back on the wall this evening. Made it feel a little more official.

In all honesty there have still been times I've been concerned and other times I've wondered if we (my son and I) wouldn't have been just fine just us...but it has been during times of frustration with kids fighting or some residual issues my wife and I still work on. But...we at least work on them. 

I went back to our original counselor last week. He was really encouraged about hearing her steps in making us work. It was a good visit. He has a good reputation with helping couples work things out and told me, back then, that she was gone and there was nothing he could do so the fact that we are working it out isn't much short of a testimony. 

We laugh a lot more. Some of my issues have made on my own. Not all. But she is pretty quick to acknowledge her faults and never acts like she is having seconds thoughts. 

So all in all, we are doing a ton better.

If anything, my son is having a hard time adjusting to having his sister back at "his house" and having to share his stuff. 
That, we can work with.

Things aren't perfect but the imperfections aren't worth talking about right now._

I think their reconciliation is going great. They are both acknowledging their faults, they are living together, and, per the last update, the sex and happy moments have increased. And all this started less than 4 mos. ago. It was on Valentine's Day that he gave her the letter that Reconciling with a Hardened Wife link showed him how to write. I think that is a lot of progress in a very short period of time.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> What do you think we see differently? Feel free to comment over on his thread if you think it might be a threadjack here. My apologies, bananapeel.


I'm good.


----------



## Wazza

The power of TAM is the ability to gather a variety of ideas.

JLD, I do believe Still found your advice helpful. I don't withdraw anything from my earlier post, but it is good to mention the website, and I think it might be good to post a link to his threads so Bananapeel can put your ideas into some kind of context. 

I have read the website. I personally think one possible success from 9,632 posts by JLD and no data on success from the guy running the ministry beyond having the money to fund a website for a while is low odds. I think it would have hurt, not helped, in my case.

But that is all I will say unless Bananapeel wants to explore some of the ideas from that site.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Interesting discussion. My thoughts (primarily for BananaPeel):



It is important to state unambiguously and completely (no leaving anything out) what you would expect from her (not just to reconcile but in general) and this should include stuff like true remorse, actions rather than words, transparency, full truth etc. This avoids any problems with covert contracts. In this way, she cannot say what she thought you were thinking etc etc.


On the other hand, her actions to show that she is sorry need to be thought up and acted on completely by her - this will come naturally if she is truly sorry and really wants to reconcile - it is clear that she isn't truly sorry and wants to reconcile, so the action you are taking to file for divorce is the right one.


To help things along, this whole thing needs to be exposed (which you have done) and she needs to feel real consequences (which you are in the process of doing).


Should she feel the need to come back at a later stage, you will have already laid the foundation for that to happen by already telling her what is expected and actually made yourself more attractive by moving on and enforcing consequences.

Now whether this is leading or not, I don't know, but I believe it is the right thing to do. I wish you strength and the best of luck.


----------



## manfromlamancha

And for what its worth, what she did was particularly vile in bringing the POSOM into your marital home (and bed) ! This level of disrespect is not easy to recover from so in my case, even if she did come back, I am not sure I would even consider taking her back. Her effort would have to be snot-nosed, down-on-her-knees remorse and gargantuan in size of effort!


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> The power of TAM is the ability to gather a variety of ideas.
> 
> JLD, I do believe Still found your advice helpful. I don't withdraw anything from my earlier post, but it is good to mention the website, and I think it might be good to post a link to his threads so Bananapeel can put your ideas into some kind of context.
> 
> I have read the website. I personally think one possible success from 9,632 posts by JLD and no data on success from the guy running the ministry beyond having the money to fund a website for a while is low odds. I think it would have hurt, not helped, in my case.
> 
> But that is all I will say unless Bananapeel wants to explore some of the ideas from that site.


More than one person has acknowledged my efforts to help them with their marriage. Here is what one of our moderators, MEM, said recently on a thread in the general forum, on how he improved his marriage:

_I cite a 50-50 stereophonic blend of:

My MC and my IC (Internet counselor) who goes by the handle JLD on this site.

That's not to say I haven't learned a lot from others on this site. Because I have. But most of the other stuff was very useful mechanics. 

The two folks above changed the spirit of my marriage. And that's no small thing...._

Bananapeel, for some reason my iPad is not allowing me to link to Still's thread. But if you go to the Considering Separation or Divorce subforum, his thread is just a little ways down. I believe his full name is Stillkeepinghopeful.


----------



## alte Dame

I hope that BP has not been driven away by this discussion, which for me is counterproductive for him in many of its elements.

I think there have been some posts that are minimizing his pain and equating what he is experiencing with whatever pain his WW is feeling. I don't think that helps him. This should be a place where he can come to have the paralyzing pain of infidelity validated and hopefully somewhat assuaged.This is a place where he should be shored up. 

He seems relatively strong, but the idea that he is strong while she is weak when she is the one who has swung a wrecking ball at his heart and their marriage and family is, to me, absurd on its face. Being in the famous fog doesn't automatically confer weakness on one. 

She is in love with the OM. He lives right in the neighborhood. They will almost certainly be actively trying to continue their A. This is his reality now. This reality just adds another layer of sh!t to the sh!t sandwich that she has fed him. He can bow, scrape and prostrate himself to try to bring her 'back' to the marriage, but the serious, serious disrespect that she has shown with how she has cheated, combined with the completely insensitive demand to listen to that tape, virtually assures that he will in short order not want to stay with her. Once he snaps out of his own fog, he won't want her. My .02.


----------



## Chaparral

3putt said:


> What the counselor suggests is irrelevant because it's well established here he has no idea what he's talking about and has no clue about the fallout of adultery, let alone what steps should be taken if BP so chooses to....much like you.
> 
> What BP said about not being second choice or Plan B is indeed relevant. What part of this is so damned difficult for you to comprehend??
> 
> You are, without a doubt, the most hard headed and self righteous individual I have ever run across....and that's saying something.
> 
> Your wife isn't going to take this bull by the horns until she sees you moving on and being OK with whatever happens. Unfortunately for her, it may be to late.
> 
> SMH


JLD has a certain amount of sticktoitivness. Plan A is great when it works. The problem here is it hasn't been seen to work with a case anywhere near this bad. Stoll's case was mild in comparison and is still not resolved. More chickens may come home to roost there yet. When betrayed spouses come out of their own fog the fan can get sticky.

This marriage has some stewing to do. The pain is fresh on both sides. How that plays out is up for grabs.

Banana, take care of yourself. Get the mmslp book downloaded now that's linked to below. See if you have veered off the path as most domesticated husbands do.

Work out, get some new clothes, try some new hobbies and revisit some old ones. New haircut, new cologne, new style. Your old life is as past as your marriage. Now its you and the kids.

As far as your wife goes time will tell if the old wife reemerges. Cut finances. Give her money only for a job search. Ask her everyday if she's found a job yet. Give her no money for anything else especially her own apt.

Make it clear she doesn't leave with the kids.

See your MD if necessary to calm down or sleep temporarily of course. No alcohol.

Also check out the free download of NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY. I doubt that applies here though.

Read shamwow and luvmyjava's threads. Especially read bff's thread. There is a good life after an affair. Someone lease can point out some successful reconciliation threads. I don't have access on this tablet.

Pryers for you and your family.
Chap


----------



## badmemory

jld said:


> If you want to solve the problem, you have to try to see both sides. I understand my idea does not seem fair. But in the long run, if it brings about a successful, true reconciliation,* does it really matter who swallowed some pride and got things going?*


It *absolutely* does matter. That pride swallowing by the BS will eventually lead to the BS being regretful for not fully testing her remorse. And those regrets will *prevent* "a successful, true reconciliation".


----------



## jld

badmemory said:


> It *absolutely* does matter. That pride swallowing by the BS will eventually lead to the BS being regretful for not fully testing her remorse. And those regrets will undermine the R.


Still's reconciliation is going fine. 

He took the first step with his wife. He just reached out in humility and compassion. His expectations were modest. 

And now, four months on, she is acknowledging her faults. 

It just takes patience. And good methods.


----------



## badmemory

jld said:


> Still's reconciliation is going fine.
> 
> He took the first step with his wife. He just reached out in humility and compassion. His expectations were modest.
> 
> And now, four months on, she is acknowledging her faults.
> 
> It just takes patience. And good methods.


Lol. Four months?

He has plenty of time for those regrets to fester. I hope his R is eventually successful, but 4 months is just a minute in time on the "get past it" continuum.


----------



## Bananapeel

Well, that was a very spirited and enlightening discussion. 

I am not pursuing R at this point because my wife is in love with another man. I have been an excellent husband and father, but she has changed (her words). When I first start noticing she was distant I did my best to try to improve our relationship and my contributions to it, and she rejected those changes. I now know the reason was with the affair she gave her heart to another man and changed her priorities to where they are no longer in line with mine. I frequently tell my kids that a man's job is to make the right decisions, no matter how hard they are because men have conviction and honor. She can cheat on me but she doesn't get to change me or take my manhood away...that is not hers and I won't give it to her. I am taking a few weeks to think and talk with family, friends, and counselors, but I see no way out other than divorce. She wants to R, but in a rugsweeping way. I won't accept that. I told her if she wants R I need her to hate the other man for what he did to us and need her to commit completely to me and the family. She has taken NO action to fix anything. She is depressed, but still is thinking about the OM and her reputation, rather than about us and what is best for our family. I freely admit that I still love her (or at least who I thought she was), but that isn't enough to make us work. If we can't be good role models for the kids on what a happy marriage should be, we need to be good role models in how to live separate lives and still get along with your ex. I will still treat her with respect and not try to cheat her out of anything in the D that is rightfully hers, as long as she plays nice, because that is not the type of person I am. I am in favor of a true R, but her heart isn't in it and I refuse to be her second choice. I am too good for that. I gave her 100% and I expect it back; I won't settle for less. I really wish things were different and that she could see clearly. By the time she figures out what she lost I'll be long gone.


----------



## jld

badmemory said:


> Lol. Four months?
> 
> He has plenty of time for those regrets to fester. I hope his R is eventually successful, but 4 months is just a minute in time on the "get past it" continuum.


There are people here who never got any reconciliation.

I think Still is doing well. Did you see the remark his counselor made? 

The counselor thought there was no hope at the beginning because the wife had no interest in reconciliation. But through the help of that Reconciling with a Hardened Wife article, Still persuaded her to give things another chance. She eventually accepted. And now the counselor considers it remarkable.

There is hope. If you use good methods.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Please, Still has his own thread, go talk there. 

BP is reading, he is liking posts.


----------



## Bananapeel

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Please, Still has his own thread, go talk there.
> 
> BP is reading, he is liking posts.


I even added one of my one own the end of the previous page.


----------



## Thor

jld said:


> But if he does not tell her directly what he expects to see, that is a covert contract, right? He is looking for certain things that to him demonstrate remorse. But she does not know that, or does not know specifically what he wants.
> 
> In a few weeks, he may be seeing those things from her. And telling her specifically what he wants to see would let her know for sure what to do.
> 
> "Wife, if you want to reconcile, here are the things you must do: _(proceed with list)_."


No, it is merely an unstated expectation.

My wife scraped my car in the garage. I expect her to come to me and apologize. Why do I expect it? Because it is what a person with integrity does. Because it is what a person does when they truly feel bad about what they did. The apology is given without prompting.

If I noticed the scrape, tell her I expect her to apologize, and then she does, is that apology real? Does that apology have a good chance of healing me?

Now if I told her I expect her to call the paint shop and get it fixed, that is a different thing altogether. I am telling her what she needs to do to correct the mistake.

Cheating is vastly worse because it involves many intentional acts such as lying and having sex with OM. This isn't accidentally scraping my car while pulling a bicycle out of the garage. The level of emotional trauma in the victim is so much higher that the apology needs to be believable. The remorse of the betrayer needs to be believable.


----------



## GusPolinski

Bananapeel said:


> Well, that was a very spirited and enlightening discussion.
> 
> I am not pursuing R at this point because my wife is in love with another man. I have been an excellent husband and father, but she has changed (her words). When I first start noticing she was distant I did my best to try to improve our relationship and my contributions to it, and she rejected those changes. I now know the reason was with the affair she gave her heart to another man and changed her priorities to where they are no longer in line with mine. I frequently tell my kids that a man's job is to make the right decisions, no matter how hard they are because men have conviction and honor. She can cheat on me but she doesn't get to change me or take my manhood away...that is not hers and I won't give it to her. I am taking a few weeks to think and talk with family, friends, and counselors, but I see no way out other than divorce. She wants to R, but in a rugsweeping way. I won't accept that. I told her if she wants R I need her to hate the other man for what he did to us and need her to commit completely to me and the family. She has taken NO action to fix anything. She is depressed, but still is thinking about the OM and her reputation, rather than about us and what is best for our family. *I freely admit that I still love her (or at least who I thought she was), but that isn't enough to make us work.* If we can't be good role models for the kids on what a happy marriage should be, we need to be good role models in how to live separate lives and still get along with your ex. I will still treat her with respect and not try to cheat her out of anything in the D that is rightfully hers, as long as she plays nice, because that is not the type of person I am. I am in favor of a true R, but her heart isn't in it and I refuse to be her second choice. I am too good for that. I gave her 100% and I expect it back; I won't settle for less. I really wish things were different and that she could see clearly. By the time she figures out what she lost I'll be long gone.


If I were asked to give only one piece of advice to a BS (or even a WS) hoping for reconciliation, it would be this: never, Ever, EVER settle for rugsweeping. Pull everything out in the open -- the good, the bad, and the ugly -- and deal w/ ALL of it. You're in a good place mentally, IMO.

Love is but one of the four pillars required to sustain the foundational relationship that makes for a solid marriage; the other three are trust, respect, and devotion... and _all four are needed from *BOTH* partners in order to keep the foundation strong._

Love just isn't enough... especially when one spouse doesn't love (or isn't _in love with_) the other.


----------



## jld

Thor said:


> No, it is merely an unstated expectation.
> 
> My wife scraped my car in the garage. I expect her to come to me and apologize. Why do I expect it? Because it is what a person with integrity does. Because it is what a person does when they truly feel bad about what they did.
> 
> If I noticed the scrape, tell her I expect her to apologize, and then she does, is that apology real? Does that apology have a good chance of healing me?
> 
> Now if I told her I expect her to call the paint shop and get it fixed, that is a different thing altogether. I am telling her what she needs to do to correct the mistake.
> 
> Cheating is vastly worse because it involves many intentional acts such as lying and having sex with OM. This isn't accidentally scraping my car while pulling a bicycle out of the garage. The level of emotional trauma in the victim is so much higher that the apology needs to be believable. The remorse of the betrayer needs to be believable.


But what if she was never taught to apologize? What if her family never did it?

Not everyone had the same upbringing, Thor. Some need to be clearly instructed.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> If I were asked to give only one piece of advice to a BS (or even a WS) hoping for reconciliation, it would be this: never, Ever, EVER settle for rugsweeping. Pull everything out in the open -- the good, the bad, and the ugly -- and deal w/ ALL of it. You're in a good place mentally, IMO.
> 
> Love is but one of the four pillars required to sustain the foundational relationship that makes for a solid marriage; the other three are trust, respect, and devotion... and _all four are needed from *BOTH* partners in order to keep the foundation strong._
> 
> Love just isn't enough... especially when one spouse doesn't love (or isn't _in love with_) the other.


Transparency is indeed essential.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> *But what if she was never taught to apologize? What if her family never did it?*
> 
> Not everyone had the same upbringing, Thor. Some need to be clearly instructed.


Then she doesn't have the emotional tools necessary for reconciliation.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Then she doesn't have the emotional tools necessary for reconciliation.


She can learn them.


----------



## 3putt

GusPolinski said:


> Then she doesn't have the emotional tools necessary for reconciliation.


Or a relationship to begin with.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> She can learn them.


At 40+ years of age? Not likely.

Would a wayward husband -- having shown the same level of contempt for his wife, children, and home that OP has chronicled here -- have earned the same level of consideration from you?


----------



## Thor

jld said:


> But what if she was never taught to apologize? What if her family never did it?
> 
> Not everyone had the same upbringing, Thor. Some need to be clearly instructed.


She could be prompted in one of several ways. One would be in MC for the counselor to tell her how important it is that she offer a heartfelt apology. Perhaps a friend or relative could ask her if she's apologized, and was it sincere. Another is for the BS to ask her how she feels about what she did. So she could be prompted if she isn't aware she needs to do it.

The BS has a deep emotional wound which can't be repaired simply. To go back to the scraped car in the garage scenario, the paint can be repaired easily. Given that it was an accidental scrape, I don't even need a deep confession and emotional apology. Just a "sorry" and get the scrape fixed. Done. 

This kind of repair doesn't work for infidelity because the wound is emotional. Others can tell the WS she needs to apologize. BS needs to hear it from her without him asking for it. Why? Because his emotional part needs to believe she really is deeply sorry for what she did, and deeply sorry for hurting him. This is why the snot bubbles are mentioned by others. It shows proof of her remorse for hurting the BS.

One thing to add: Some people are simply incapable of uttering the words of an apology. Even though they feel great remorse, there is some defect which makes them physically incapable of saying the words. I have a friend who's wife cheated and is unable to speak an apology. He understands her childhood roots of this, and has R'd with her to an extent. The lack of a heartfelt apology keeps his heart from fully healing, but in an exceptional case such as this he chose not to make it a deal breaker. I think this is a rare circumstance but a valid example.


----------



## 3putt

GusPolinski said:


> At 40+ years of age? Not likely.
> 
> *Would a wayward husband -- having shown the same level of contempt for his wife, children, and home that OP has chronicled here -- have earned the same level of consideration from you?*


A question we all know the answer to regardless of how she answers it.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> At 40+ years of age? Not likely.
> 
> Would a wayward husband -- having shown the same level of contempt for his wife, children, and home that OP has chronicled here -- have earned the same level of consideration from you?


It would depend on what the wife wanted/her situation. But I would be concerned. Causes of women's infidelity and men's are not always exactly alike.

Men have a lot of power, Gus. Women tend to accept men's influence more easily than vice versa. Gottman's research shows that.

If you have power, why not use it for the best interests of everyone involved?


----------



## ScrambledEggs

jld said:


> She can learn them.


Perhaps, but she would have to want to be different. If a spouse wants to R but thinks they can, or even insists on doing it without changing themselves, it won't work. At best the marriage will just go back to being on life-support as the years spill on.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> It would depend on what the wife wanted/her situation. But I would be concerned. Causes of women's infidelity and men's are not always exactly alike.
> 
> Men have a lot of power, Gus. Women tend to accept men's influence more easily than vice versa. Gottman's research shows that.
> 
> If you have power, why not use it for the best interests of everyone involved?


Slavery notwithstanding, no one -- man or woman -- can force another to do something that he or she doesn't want to do.

By his own words, OP has clearly communicated to his WW what he'd need to see from her in order for him to agree to reconciliation... and she's summarily rejected all of it. Should he backpedal? Should he further sacrifice his dignity in order to accommodate her desire to rugsweep?


----------



## jld

ScrambledEggs said:


> Perhaps, but she would have to want to be different. If a spouse wants to R but thinks they can, or even insists on doing it without changing themselves, it won't work. At best the marriage will just go back to being on life-support as the years spill on.


He can use his influence to get her there.

Did you read the Reconciling link, SE?

Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife


----------



## farsidejunky

Gus, you had me until dignity. It is not dignity. It is sticking to his principles. 

I would argue that dignity plays a role for many who will not apologize. Albeit it is misplaced, but dignity has no role here because it causes us to do stupid things in the name of it. However, principles do play a part.

And that is why he should proceed forward with divorce unless she indicates through actions that she is ready for reconciliation.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> Causes of women's infidelity and men's are not always exactly alike.


Yes, they are exactly alike and I will never understand why people try to float they are soooooo different. The emotional distress and reactions can be different not the infidelity itself or the causes.


----------



## GusPolinski

farsidejunky said:


> Gus, you had me until dignity. It is not dignity. It is sticking to his principles.
> 
> I would argue that dignity plays a role for many who will not apologize. Albeit it is misplaced, but dignity has no role here because it causes us to do stupid things in the name of it. However, principles do play a part.
> 
> And that is why he should proceed forward with divorce unless she indicates through actions that she is ready for reconciliation.


Eh... we're sort of picking nits here but OK... sure.

To be clear, I'd never advise that someone do something rash or violent in the name of his or her dignity. After all, that would be pretty undignified.

Either way, there is a certain dignity to be found in the following...

* Standing by your principles
* Refusing to associate w/ those (at least any more than absolutely necessary) that do not share your principles
* Refusing to accommodate those who would have you behave in such a manner that is inconsistent w/ your principles


----------



## ScrambledEggs

jld said:


> He can use his influence to get her there.
> 
> Did you read the Reconciling link, SE?
> 
> Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife


We maybe talking past each other here. The change I am talking about is not readiness to attempt R, but addressing the moral and personality issues that led the wife's lies. I contend that so long as one partner feels entitled to lie, regardless of their sincerity in making the marriage work, The marriage will fall short of expectations and be at risk, even though it may persist. 

And a persons relationship to the truth and willingness to lie goes back to the basic wiring of their being. To change something like this takes a lot of effort and you just do not roll out of bed one morning and say, "today and forever, I will be different and will no longer use lies and manipulation to get what I want or avoid discomfort".

Also, the R link you provided assumes the OP is a devout Christian and in fact leans heavily on dogma in making marital decisions. Maybe I missed it but I have not seen any talk of pastors, church, or faith in this thread at all, so I am not sure that will be of help to them or for that matter, anyone of marginal or no faith.


----------



## farsidejunky

ScrambledEggs said:


> We maybe talking past each other here. The change I am talking about is not readiness to attempt R, but addressing the moral and personality issues that led the wife's lies. I contend that so long as one partner feels entitled to lie, regardless of their sincerity in making the marriage work, The marriage will fall short of expectations and be at risk, even though it may persist.
> 
> And a persons relationship to the truth and willingness to lie goes back to the basic wiring of their being. To change something like this takes a lot of effort and you just do not roll out of bed one morning and say, "today and forever, I will be different and will no longer use lies and manipulation to get what I want or avoid discomfort".
> 
> Also, the R link you provided assumes the OP is a devout Christian and in fact leans heavily on dogma in making marital decisions. Maybe I missed it but I have not seen any talk of pastors, church, or faith in this thread at all, so I am not sure that will be of help to them or for that matter, anyone of marginal or no faith.


He mentioned exposure to pastoral leadership.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> She can learn them.


And she should...on her own time. Maybe by then she will become someone worthy of marriage.


----------



## ScrambledEggs

jld said:


> He can use his influence to get her there.
> 
> Did you read the Reconciling link, SE?
> 
> Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife


Now that I have read this thing most of the way through, I have to point out this is horrible advice. Or rather it is only good advice in a narrow set of circumstances, none of which appear to be in play for the OP. For example:



> No woman who invests years of her life into a marriage will casually throw it away. For a woman to abandon her marriage she has to be in a state of extreme desperation.


This sort of blame shifting assumes an awful lot. 

The wider article creates what is, I think, a generally unrealistic view marriage where weak emotional women follow a traditional script and essentially ignores the part a wife often plays in the marriage going to down hill. For example, if the wife lost interest in sex, or never had it, and then the husband checked out, is the path to R really the husband falling on his sword and swallowing the whole mess as his problem/his fault? Is that going to last? I doubt it.


----------



## bandit.45

Bananapeel said:


> . By the time she figures out what she lost I'll be long gone.


Excellent post and good job on keeping a positive attitude.


----------



## EleGirl

Folks, let's stick to the topic of this thread. If you want to discuss your side topic.. create a new thread.

Don't post unless you addressing Bananapeel (the OP) and his situation.


----------



## bandit.45

I love how these guys get lost in debate and ignore the OP.


----------



## just got it 55

BP Absolute clarity coming through in your words

If a WS and BS can't repair the damage done by infidelity

Your beliefs and actions are the best and only option

55


----------



## azteca1986

Bananapeel said:


> I frequently tell my kids that a man's job is to make the right decisions, no matter how hard they are because men have conviction and honor.


And integrity (not that I'm implying that integrity is a solely male preserve).

It's hard enough being a father, leave alone in the circumstances you have had thrust upon you. You've handled this situation amazing well and are clearly leading your kids by example.

Of course you still love your wife. That's perfectly normal at this stage. Perhaps a part of you will always love the mother of your children. But reconciliation, like marriage, requires two willing and committed parties, so it is a credit to you that you are not letting your heart rule your head into accepting second best.


----------



## Wazza

BP, what is love?

Your wife loves another man, and you need her to hate him. One of the things I have had to accept is that my wife formed a significant bond with another man. The fact that the bond was formed in the wrong circumstances does not make it cease to exist. 

Does your wife deserve credit if she is telling you what is, rather than what you want to hear? Are there other options to explore here?


----------



## Bananapeel

Wazza said:


> BP, what is love?
> 
> Does your wife deserve credit if she is telling you what is, rather than what you want to hear? Are there other options to explore here?


The question is what is the point of her honesty. If the point is to admit the problems and try to truthfully work through them, then yes that deserves credit. If the honesty comes from no longer caring about what I feel so she has no more need to lie, then no it doesn't deserve any credit.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Bananapeel said:


> Well, that was a very spirited and enlightening discussion.
> 
> I am not pursuing R at this point because my wife is in love with another man. I have been an excellent husband and father, but she has changed (her words). When I first start noticing she was distant I did my best to try to improve our relationship and my contributions to it, and she rejected those changes. I now know the reason was with the affair she gave her heart to another man and changed her priorities to where they are no longer in line with mine. I frequently tell my kids that* a man's job is to make the right decisions, no matter how hard they are because men have conviction and honor. She can cheat on me but she doesn't get to change me or take my manhood away...that is not hers and I won't give it to her*.:smthumbup:
> 
> 
> *I am taking a few weeks to think and talk with family, friends, and counselors*, _*WISE*_ !!
> 
> 
> but I see no way out other than divorce. She wants to R, but in a rugsweeping way.* I won't accept that. I told her if she wants R I need her to hate the other man for what he did to us and need her to commit completely to me and the family*. She has taken NO action to fix anything. She is depressed, but still is thinking about the OM and her reputation, rather than about us and what is best for our family. I freely admit that I still love her (or at least who I thought she was), but that isn't enough to make us work. If we can't be good role models for the kids on what a happy marriage should be, we need to be good role models in how to live separate lives and still get along with your ex. I will still treat her with respect and not try to cheat her out of anything in the D that is rightfully hers, as long as she plays nice, because that is not the type of person I am.* I am in favor of a true R*, but her heart isn't in it and* I refuse to be her second choice. I am too good for that. I gave her 100% and I expect it back*;* I won't settle for less*. I really wish things were different and that she could see clearly. By the time she figures out what she lost I'll be long gone.



Bannana Peel... I just have to applaud you. I feel strongly that if reconciliation comes your way after taking the time to consult your resources you are in the right state of mind to proceed. SHE is the one who ran off the rails into relationship addiction to the destruction of your family. But YOU are maintaining your priorities of your personal stability for yourself and your children. Bravo. This is the right kind of dignity. 


I do believe your counselor did you a disservice by saying that allowing her access to her favorite addiction was her choice. He basically told you to unlock the liquor cabinet for your alcoholic wife and let her get a hit on her drug of choice. This likely delayed the affair fog lifting. She is free to go get her hit on her own but you did not have to unlock that cabinet for her and this is where I would have disagreed with him. Some have suggested bringing in others to listen and though I agree that it would probably speed up the affair fog lifting, the unintended consequence of that is the opinion of those listening is forever changed about your wife which could complicate the recovery if you chose that route. There is that risk of adding destruction to destruction which I do not advocate. But I do believe in strategic exposure FOR the spouse since it is not in their best interest to be left in that condition whether there is reconciliation or not and/or to bring persons alongside who would speak the truth in love, and be great accountability partners. But she isn't ready for hearing accountability. She needs rattling first.


The moment she chose to feed this addiction you instantly were an emotionally abandoned spouse. She became *emotionally unavailable through intense selfishness (addiction)*. And now YOU are emotionally unavailable through intense trauma (affair trauma). Those two positions are extremely different places. And thus begins the quagmire of reconciling these two positions. Her selfishness ruptured your reality and now you have two emotionally compromised persons trying to find their way around in a preexisting relationship that no longer exists at this point. But it can be done.. it is a lot of time consuming expensive hard work with very unique payoffs.


You CAN declare your future path, which I feel you are already doing beautifully, "My future will NOT include another man banging my wife, if you choose to allow that in your heart, mind, soul or body, then you will not be my wife." This IS your transparency and leadership. I would hope that further exposure will begin to build that vision in her head by revealing the destruction she has cause and causing her to face it, but at this point she is giving you nothing to work with, so I would proceed to separating yourself with calm dignity, loving your kids, being a great dad and man, and begin to let her feel the repercussions that she brought to her own door step. Do not shield her from consequences. Accept no blame for that and do not apologize for wanting a quality uncompromised life. Those babies were not gifted to you to live in destruction. 


Can you pray, hold out hope for her personal recovery, whether you reconcile or not, yes. And is recovery possible for y'all... probably, if capacity and willingness on both sides is established. You definitely have the capacity, the rest will take time to unfold. And like you say, you may be gone by then. Natural Consequence. 


I am just SO sorry!! It should not be so. But I am proud of the healthy way you value yourself and your kids... don't walk two miles with someone walking in the wrong direction. You know the right path. Surround yourself with additional strength, speak the truth in love and hold that head high. You are doing well.


----------



## Wazza

Bananapeel said:


> The question is what is the point of her honesty. If the point is to admit the problems and try to truthfully work through them, then yes that deserves credit. If the honesty comes from no longer caring about what I feel so she has no more need to lie, then no it doesn't deserve any credit.


What does she say she wants? How consistent is what she says? And how consistent are her current actions with her words?

If she says she wants to reconcile, does she say why?

Sorry, this next question might be hard, but do you think she cares about you or not? I'm getting mixed messages.


----------



## Bananapeel

Wazza said:


> What does she say she wants? How consistent is what she says? And how consistent are her current actions with her words?
> 
> She says that she isn't sure what she wants. She wants things to be back the way they were before this happened. She is not taking any serious action.
> 
> If she says she wants to reconcile, does she say why?
> 
> Mostly for the kids.
> 
> Sorry, this next question might be hard, but do you think she cares about you or not? I'm getting mixed messages.
> 
> I think she does deep down, but she can't see it through the self loathing and loss she is experiencing.


----------



## Vulcan2013

jld said:


> But what if she was never taught to apologize? What if her family never did it?
> 
> Not everyone had the same upbringing, Thor. Some need to be clearly instructed.


Oh, C'MON! 

Seriously, if need advice on reconnecting to my W, you have good advice. But if she's an unrepentant wayward, it would not be my job to "fix" that. 

BP's self-respect demands he move on. She loves another man. At best, he can only get her to "settle" and eventually betray him again. 

What if she was never taught to apologize? She's an adult, she can learn. But she doesn't want to learn or apologize.

If my W presented the same set of facts, with me as the WH, I doubt you give her such ridiculous advice.

ETA: missed Elegirl's request to speak to OP's issue. I usually avoid these threadjacks. 

BP, I think you have the right perspective. In the meantime, I'd move forward on the D, separate assets, push her to get a job, and set up for your future life. It takes a while to complete, so you can get ready while you "wait". Don't give in on your very reasonable conditions.


----------



## ThePheonix

Bananapeel said:


> I am not pursuing R at this point because my wife is in love with another man.


From what I'm reading in these post, I wonder if you can simplify it a little more. I get the impression some folks don't understand what you've been saying from the start.


----------



## bfree

BP, if your wife had an epiphany and realized how used she really was would it alter your course? If her "love" for this OM died and she began to loathe him for the destruction he helped to cause would you then consider reconciliation?

Btw, I am NOT suggesting that you reconcile. I'm just wondering how far down the divorce path you've already traveled.


----------



## Wazza

bfree said:


> BP, if your wife had an epiphany and realized how used she really was would it alter your course? If her "love" for this OM died and she began to loathe him for the destruction he helped to cause would you then consider reconciliation?


Or, if she didn't loathe him, but clearly chose you.....what is your exact line in the sand? How much of it is about being "in love" as opposed to being loving for you? And for your wife, since anything you craft has to be acceptable to both.


----------



## Wazza

What is your wife's character like? What are her strengths and weaknesses? In what way is the current situation out of character for her?


----------



## the guy

I don't get it folks....OP and his old lady can be great parents , be civil and co parent like the best of them....but until his old lady wants to bang his lights out like a love struck teen....well then whats the point?

When i was going through this crap it made a huge difference in why i keep my old lady around....sure it was for the kids, BUT...she want me and only me!

Your old lady wants to R with the family and that's great...but it's not going to get you laid every night...so if the both of you can't walk out the master bedroom every morning with a big @ss smile on your faces then screw it.


----------



## Dyokemm

"She can cheat on me but she doesn't get to change me or take my manhood away...that is not hers and I won't give it to her."

BP,

GOOD for you!

Man do I wish more BH's realized this.

Their WW's did not humiliate or emasculate them....the only humiliation is theirs for being a worthless traitor.

The only true humiliation or emasculation for BH's is entirely a self-inflicted wound....and it is carried out by BH's doing exactly this out of fear and in a desperate attempt to save ANY relationship with their cheating partners.

NO ONE is worth your own pride, honor, and dignity.


----------



## Wazza

Dyokemm said:


> "She can cheat on me but she doesn't get to change me or take my manhood away...that is not hers and I won't give it to her."
> 
> BP,
> 
> GOOD for you!
> 
> Man do I wish more BH's realized this.
> 
> Their WW's did not humiliate or emasculate them....the only humiliation is theirs for being a worthless traitor.
> 
> The only true humiliation or emasculation for BH's is entirely a self-inflicted wound....and it is carried out by BH's doing exactly this out of fear and in a desperate attempt to save ANY relationship with their cheating partners.
> 
> NO ONE is worth your own pride, honor, and dignity.


I would agree with the core sentiment here but I would add that you walk between two extremes. It would be a mistake to just roll over and take whatever the WW (or WH)dishes out. It is also a mistake to overreact like a bull in a china shop, just to show that you are not going to take anything, or in the heat of the inevitable emotions that accompany this sort of thing. You have to walk a fine line between these in a complex and emotionally charged situation.

Like it or not marriage is complex and multifaceted. There are children and extended family involved, serious financial commitments, and even when a spouse cheats there can be complexities and nuance to the relationship that make it harder.

A strong person (my idea of a strong person) makes his or her own decision in a situation like this. But it is made carefully and thoughtfully.


----------



## Wazza

Vulcan2013 said:


> Oh, C'MON!
> 
> Seriously, if need advice on reconnecting to my W, you have good advice. But if she's an unrepentant wayward, it would not be my job to "fix" that.
> 
> *BP's self-respect demands he move on. She loves another man. At best, he can only get her to "settle" and eventually betray him again.*
> 
> What if she was never taught to apologize? She's an adult, she can learn. But she doesn't want to learn or apologize.
> 
> If my W presented the same set of facts, with me as the WH, I doubt you give her such ridiculous advice.
> 
> ETA: missed Elegirl's request to speak to OP's issue. I usually avoid these threadjacks.
> 
> BP, I think you have the right perspective. In the meantime, I'd move forward on the D, separate assets, push her to get a job, and set up for your future life. It takes a while to complete, so you can get ready while you "wait". Don't give in on your very reasonable conditions.


Agree with all except the bolded part. I have 25 years of experience to say it can be worked out. In some cases. Not all.


----------



## Dyokemm

Wazza,

I think that Vulcan meant that in a very personal sense for BP based on what he has posted...NOT as a general principle that would apply to all BS's.

If I understand BP's thoughts on this, then I happen to agree with Vulcan.

For BP, this situation IS a matter of self-respect.

That does not mean that for other persons, such as yourself, it would have to be right.

Every person has to make this call for themselves.


----------



## Wazza

Dyokemm said:


> Wazza,
> 
> I think that Vulcan meant that in a very personal sense for BP based on what he has posted...NOT as a general principle that would apply to all BS's.
> 
> If I understand BP's thoughts on this, then I happen to agree with Vulcan.
> 
> For BP, this situation IS a matter of self-respect.
> 
> That does not mean that for other persons, such as yourself, it would have to be right.
> 
> Every person has to make this call for themselves.


Agree everyone has to make this call for themselves. 

The part I disagreed with was the pronouncement that the best case is she will betray him again. It's a real possibility, but its not a certainty. The best case would be that the reconciliation succeeds. And I don't think there is enough information in the thread to precisely rate the odds of the different outcomes. 

My take on self respect is that it is about being true to yourself and your values. If he is clear on his values, and does the best he can, then whether the path leads to immediate divorce, successful reconciliation, or an attempt at reconciliation that fails, I think his self respect is intact. If you disagree, maybe you could elaborate.


----------



## Bananapeel

Wazza said:


> Or, if she didn't loathe him, but clearly chose you.....what is your exact line in the sand? How much of it is about being "in love" as opposed to being loving for you? And for your wife, since anything you craft has to be acceptable to both.





bfree said:


> BP, if your wife had an epiphany and realized how used she really was would it alter your course? If her "love" for this OM died and she began to loathe him for the destruction he helped to cause would you then consider reconciliation?
> 
> Btw, I am NOT suggesting that you reconcile. I'm just wondering how far down the divorce path you've already traveled.


I don't really know how to answer these questions. My emotions are all over the place right now.


----------



## Vulcan2013

The questions may be hypothetical, but are likely to come up. Her sincerity (solidify you as Plan B, or real epiphany) is something you will need to evaluate. Under the present circumstances, you should proceed with D and exposure. You won't be through the process for months anyway, and the consequences may provide such an epiphany. 

Wazza, under the present circumstances, where she loves another man and has no respect for BP, there a huge likelihood she would cheat again if he accepts being the fallback plan. If she was remorseful, that might offer different possibilities. But she isn't.


----------



## z_man

farsidejunky said:


> Gus, you had me until dignity. It is not dignity. It is sticking to his principles.
> 
> I would argue that dignity plays a role for many who will not apologize. Albeit it is misplaced, but* dignity has no role here because it causes us to do stupid things in the name of it. * However, principles do play a part.
> 
> And that is why he should proceed forward with divorce unless she indicates through actions that she is ready for reconciliation.


I get the feeling you are using dignity to describe ego. IMHO you can stick to your principles much easier if you have some dignity.

Dignity => the state or quality of being worthy of honor or respect.
"a man of dignity and unbending principle"


----------



## Wazza

Vulcan2013 said:


> The questions may be hypothetical, but are likely to come up. Her sincerity (solidify you as Plan B, or real epiphany) is something you will need to evaluate. Under the present circumstances, you should proceed with D and exposure. You won't be through the process for months anyway, and the consequences may provide such an epiphany.
> 
> Wazza, under the present circumstances, where she loves another man and has no respect for BP, there a huge likelihood she would cheat again if he accepts being the fallback plan. If she was remorseful, that might offer different possibilities. But she isn't.


In my head the questions aren't hypothetical. They were another way of saying, "what do you really want?" And related, "what sort of person do you think your wife is?"

Agree that she needs to be remorseful, as well as of a certain character, for reconciliation to occur.


----------



## Wazza

Bananapeel said:


> I don't really know how to answer these questions. My emotions are all over the place right now.


It's normal. Worst pain I ever went through. Sorry.

The questions are cruel and heartless. But they are the sort of question you have to answer. It's not fair, but it is what it is.

I can't tell you what your life will look like a couple of years from now, but I can tell you you are thinking all the right things, and you will get through.

I think the counsellor gave you good advice to take some time and think. And various folks told you make sure you have an exercise regime (weird how much that helps).


----------



## Dyokemm

"My take on self respect is that it is about being true to yourself and your values. If he is clear on his values, and does the best he can, then whether the path leads to immediate divorce, successful reconciliation, or an attempt at reconciliation that fails, I think his self respect is intact. If you disagree, maybe you could elaborate."

Wazza,

No...I agree 100% with your point.

I do think he has be VERY clear and precise in his statements that he simply will NOT try to R as her second choice.

Accepting her R proposal would essentially be a complete betrayal of BP's values and beliefs IMO.


----------



## Wazza

Dyokemm said:


> "My take on self respect is that it is about being true to yourself and your values. If he is clear on his values, and does the best he can, then whether the path leads to immediate divorce, successful reconciliation, or an attempt at reconciliation that fails, I think his self respect is intact. If you disagree, maybe you could elaborate."
> 
> Wazza,
> 
> No...I agree 100% with your point.
> 
> I do think he has be VERY clear and precise in his statements that he simply will NOT try to R as her second choice.
> 
> Accepting her R proposal would essentially be a complete betrayal of BP's values and beliefs IMO.


Just to be clear, by my standards there is no reconciliation proposal on the table at this point. I think her current position is "I think you are boring, but can you please go on spending your boring time earning your boring income so that I can be spared from having to do the same." No change, except that the OM is not part of her life...maybe.... 

That doesn't mean there won't be something worth talking about when she starts to understand what she's done. If she's fundamentally a person of character she has some serious (and deserved) self loathing ahead of her.

I think BP's decision to redistribute responsibilities, so that he plays a greater part in childcare and she has to get a job, is one of many wise thoughts he has had. Better for the kids if they divorce, and I think it improves the chances of reconciliation if she gets a serious reality check.


----------



## Bananapeel

Dyokemm, you summed it up perfectly. 

Wazza, you are correct. She wants things to be back to normal, but doesn't want to fix the problems so there is no R proposal on the table. I am unable to accept this and have been detaching and working on myself. I am eating healthy, working out just about every day, and trying to stabilize my emotions. She is currently undergoing some serious self loathing. Last night she was drinking to cope (very bad idea) and got borderline suicidal. I ended up sleeping on the edge of her bed to watch her and make sure she didn't do anything stupid. She is still in love with the OM and is depressed because of how easily he discarded her. I think she will have an epiphany at some point, and we'll see how to go from there. I don't think it will happen until she is out on her own, working for a living, and not seeing her kids everyday. Right now she is not in her right mind and can't see clearly. I wish more than anything I could help her through this, but it is out of my hands. I'm still talking with the counselor and getting advice from close friends/family. In a few weeks after I've given things more thought I'll file for D.


----------



## GusPolinski

BP, did you ever get any confirmation w/ respect to a timeline for the affair?


----------



## Bananapeel

Yes, she came clean about everything since she no longer has anything to hide. I started noticing behavior changes within a couple weeks of it originally starting. It took awhile for me to suspect an affair because it was so out of character for her.


----------



## ThePheonix

Bananapeel said:


> Dyokemm, you summed it up perfectly.
> 
> She wants things to be back to normal, but doesn't want to fix the problems so there is no R proposal on the table.


If you translate that from "womanese", you know what she's saying, don't you? Take a shot at it.


----------



## bandit.45

Keep moving forward as you are. Day by day it will get easier. Stick to the 180 like glue and don't let up until she is gone. Keep eating well, working out and putting your own needs first. You will detach more and more each day. Just go easy on yourself.


----------



## Wazza

You seem to assume you will have custody of the kids in the event of divorce. Does your lawyer agree?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Wazza said:


> You seem to assume you will have custody of the kids in the event of divorce. Does your lawyer agree?
> _Posed via Mobile Device_


I read it as a total consequence of her actions. She will have to work, live on her own and watch her kids leave instead of seeing them every day. He will get some form of arrangement where she will not see her children everyday.


----------



## Bananapeel

We are going to do split custody so she will lose seeing them quite a bit compared to what she was used to as a SAHM. I will too. It Is just another consequence of her actions, that unfortunately hurts everyone.


----------



## jld

Bananapeel said:


> We are going to do split custody so she will lose seeing them quite a bit compared to what she was used to as a SAHM. I will too. It Is just another consequence of her actions, that unfortunately hurts everyone.


It is a consequence of the decision to divorce, right?


----------



## Bananapeel

Yes.


----------



## 3putt

jld said:


> It is a consequence of the decision to divorce, right?


And there you go again; rewording it so it's now the man's fault and not the adulterous wife's.


----------



## jld

Bananapeel said:


> Yes.


There is a space between her actions and your decision to divorce. It is not a direct step from one to the other. You need to take responsibility for that. This divorce is not happening "automatically," as though nothing can be done to stop it.


----------



## Wazza

BP, I am going to talk about reconciliation. Not to push you but just to give you a perspective to consider. 

I hope its obvious from your post that I think your wife has done really wrong, I get that it hurts, and I think she needs to be accountable.

So down the track, you are going to have to make a choice. You (a) find someone who absolutely will not cheat - but how???? - or (b) live alone or (c) take a risk on a relationship. My impression is that few people choose (b) in the long term, so you either delude yourself that you have (a) - with apologies to those who made that choice - or you go for (c).

Now, make no mistake, your wife's feelings for OM are real. But from what you are saying, it seems entirely possible that she was played and manipulated for sex. And maybe she was stupid, and fell for it. And when she realizes that she could kick herself. You said that she is experiencing serious self loathing now. And I say to you, if she is a decent person, you ain't seen nothing yet.

I don't know how much of that is true of your wife, but I know it was all exactly true of mine. She is a decent, moral person, who did not understand her sexuality, was manipulated, and made a very bad decision. And has learned from it. 

Ultimately that is why I could reconcile. Because I know she is moral, I know she is wiser (albeit sadder) than she was. In terms of option (c) I judge her a good risk. 

I also know she is imperfect. Hell of a way to learn but I developed a much deeper understanding of her in analyzing her response to the affair. Her weaknesses. Her vulnerability. The part of me that is rightly furious at what she did balances against the part of me that cares for her and feels for her fragility. 

Its a very different marriage compared to before the affair, but I think I have been changed for ever. The sort of marriage I had pre affair could no longer occur with anyone.

I know you are currently set on divorce. I think it is likely that you will continue in that direction, and fair enough. In some ways I think its for the best. Certainly you don't have any other real option yet, given her current perspective. But you may have in future, and I am just trying to give you a taste of the alternative as part of your thinking.


----------



## badmemory

jld said:


> There is a space between her actions and your decision to divorce. It is not a direct step from one to the other. *You need to take responsibility for that.* This divorce is not happening "automatically," as though nothing can be done to stop it.


jld,

If nothing else, I appreciate your thick skinned reaction to all the posters that disagree with your perspective. You don't seem to take offense and that's a good thing.

That said, I will disagree with you again. Whether or not they divorce indeed appears to be the OP's decision. But the responsibility for maximizing the possibility that divorce can be avoided, is at least initially, the WW's. She can either wake up, own that responsibility and attempt to save her marriage or she can apathetically watch as her betrayed husband leaves her behind.


----------



## jld

As I understood it, Ele said we are only allowed to address the OP.


----------



## ThePheonix

bandit.45 said:


> :rofl:
> 
> 
> jld you need to go into politics!
> 
> You are something else! :rofl: Best spin doctor on TAM!


It only works if you have folks willing to believe what you're putting down. I don't think Bananapeel falls into that category. :wink2:


----------



## 3putt

ThePheonix said:


> It only works if you have folks willing to believe what you're putting down. I don't think Bananapeel falls into that category. :wink2:


Let's hope he's smarter than that.


----------



## bandit.45

I think there is a lot of shame with this WW. The shame of what she did has paralyzed her to some degree. She cannot be contrite and sorrowful or show hr BH any compassion because she is so full of shame and self-degradation that she has no emotional room for anything else. Add her mourning the loss of her OM and you have a truly useless and pathetic woman. 

I'm not saying this is an excuse, but it may explain her apparent lack of empathy. 

I think she is so scared about her future that she has gone into possum freeze. She knows she fvcked up big time. She knows her BH is furious and is making his plans to exit stage. She is so scared she is going to say the wrong thing, do the wrong thing or not do enough that she is stuck in vapor-lock. 

Shame is keeping her quiet.


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## bandit.45

jld said:


> As I understood it, Ele said we are only allowed to address the OP.


YOU are right. I went back and deleted said smarm. 

Bad Bandit!


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## Wazza

jld said:


> There is a space between her actions and your decision to divorce. It is not a direct step from one to the other. You need to take responsibility for that. This divorce is not happening "automatically," as though nothing can be done to stop it.


You feel endless sympathy for her pain and it justifies everything, but he is supposed to deal with any sh1t she chooses to dish out and just suck it up. I can't agree with that perspective. Men have hearts that can be broken too.

By my values the marriage is gone already, based on what she did. The question is whether you build a new and different marriage in its place (reconciliation) or tidy up the legal formalities around what has already occurred (divorce). She hasn't offered anything that could lead to meaningful reconciliation yet. As things stand he has no choice because she is not trying.


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## 3putt

bandit.45 said:


> YOU are right. I went back and deleted said smarm.
> 
> Bad Bandit!


If I get banned for calling her out on her misandrous bullsh!t, then that's something I can live with.


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## badmemory

bandit.45 said:


> I think there is a lot of shame with this WW. The shame of what she did has paralyzed her to some degree. She cannot be contrite and sorrowful or show hr BH any compassion because she is so full of shame and self-degradation that she has no emotional room for anything else. Add her mourning the loss of her OM and you have a truly useless and pathetic woman.
> 
> I'm not saying this is an excuse, but it may explain her apparent lack of empathy.
> 
> I think she is so scared about her future that she has gone into possum freeze. She knows she fvcked up big time. She knows her BH is furious and is making his plans to exit stage. She is so scared she is going to say the wrong thing, do the wrong thing or not do enough that she is stuck in vapor-lock.
> 
> Shame is keeping her quiet.


I'm sure that's all accurate bandit; and it's a shame. I went through something similar for a "very" short time. I know my wife was pining for the POSOM. But I didn't offer her the luxury of showing empathy for that. It wasn't deserved and it would have been the wrong approach. She understood that and to some extent I think she faked it until she made it. That's the least OP's wife could do.


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## GusPolinski

jld said:


> There is a space between her actions and your decision to divorce. It is not a direct step from one to the other. You need to take responsibility for that. This divorce is not happening "automatically," as though nothing can be done to stop it.


BP, you're absolutely right to refuse your WW's desire to rugsweep everything in lieu of an actual, proper reconciliation. Remorse, counseling (IC and MC for the both of you), and a sincere, desperate desire to atone for her behavior are all warranted here. After all, she's wrought devastation not only upon you and your marriage, but has brought your family -- including the security and stability of her own children -- to a breaking point as well.

Don't settle for second best, OM's scraps, or whatever you want to call it. You need to be her #1 again. Actualy, scratch that, you need to be her ONLY number. To be clear, I'm not recommending or even condoning any sort of puerile isolation tactics... what I'm saying is that, if she can't get to the point where she takes stock of you, OM, and literally any other guy that could conceivably be within her reach and then realize that you're the only one for her, reconciliation isn't going to work. If and when she gets to that point, she'll be ready to reconcile. Don't settle for anything less.

After all, rugsweeping won't get you anywhere except for back in the exact same spot that you're currently in a few years from now... and that's assuming that it takes even that long for it to happen again.


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## Bananapeel

jld said:


> There is a space between her actions and your decision to divorce. It is not a direct step from one to the other. You need to take responsibility for that. This divorce is not happening "automatically," as though nothing can be done to stop it.


I do take responsibility for it. The decision to divorce I have to make because she is unable to make any real decisions at this point. She chose the OM and is still choosing him, despite him refusing to have anything to do with her so he can reconcile his own marriage. Our marriage is not fixable without her giving a genuine effort to try to fix it. I really wish it was. She needs to find herself first and decide how she wants to live her life. Maybe that will eventually include me, but for now she is not choosing me or my family. I just can't accept that and feel that I have been given no choice about reconciliation because she won't commit. I'd give anything to make this mess go away, but I realize that I have to accept who she is today and realize that is different than the person I thought she was. She also needs to accept who she is and what she's become. Hopefully if she accepts it, she can recognize her mistakes and change for the better. I absolutely do not want to break up my family. I just need some hope that there is a real way to hold us together and work through this. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any actions that give me even the slightest chance of hope.


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## Bananapeel

Wazza said:


> BP, I am going to talk about reconciliation. Not to push you but just to give you a perspective to consider.
> 
> I hope its obvious from your post that I think your wife has done really wrong, I get that it hurts, and I think she needs to be accountable.
> 
> So down the track, you are going to have to make a choice. You (a) find someone who absolutely will not cheat - but how???? - or (b) live alone or (c) take a risk on a relationship. My impression is that few people choose (b) in the long term, so you either delude yourself that you have (a) - with apologies to those who made that choice - or you go for (c).
> 
> Now, make no mistake, your wife's feelings for OM are real. But from what you are saying, it seems entirely possible that she was played and manipulated for sex. And maybe she was stupid, and fell for it. And when she realizes that she could kick herself. You said that she is experiencing serious self loathing now. And I say to you, if she is a decent person, you ain't seen nothing yet.
> 
> I don't know how much of that is true of your wife, but I know it was all exactly true of mine. She is a decent, moral person, who did not understand her sexuality, was manipulated, and made a very bad decision. And has learned from it.
> 
> Ultimately that is why I could reconcile. Because I know she is moral, I know she is wiser (albeit sadder) than she was. In terms of option (c) I judge her a good risk.
> 
> I also know she is imperfect. Hell of a way to learn but I developed a much deeper understanding of her in analyzing her response to the affair. Her weaknesses. Her vulnerability. The part of me that is rightly furious at what she did balances against the part of me that cares for her and feels for her fragility.
> 
> Its a very different marriage compared to before the affair, but I think I have been changed for ever. The sort of marriage I had pre affair could no longer occur with anyone.
> 
> I know you are currently set on divorce. I think it is likely that you will continue in that direction, and fair enough. In some ways I think its for the best. Certainly you don't have any other real option yet, given her current perspective. But you may have in future, and I am just trying to give you a taste of the alternative as part of your thinking.


I still have hope for us. But in the meantime I am going to proceed with D. Maybe it will lead to an awakening for her and we can figure out a way out of this mess. If not, it is the right choice.


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## jld

Bananapeel said:


> I do take responsibility for it. The decision to divorce I have to make because she is unable to make any real decisions at this point. She chose the OM and is still choosing him, despite him refusing to have anything to do with her so he can reconcile his own marriage. Our marriage is not fixable without her giving a genuine effort to try to fix it. I really wish it was. She needs to find herself first and decide how she wants to live her life. Maybe that will eventually include me, but for now she is not choosing me or my family. I just can't accept that and feel that I have been given no choice about reconciliation because she won't commit. I'd give anything to make this mess go away, but I realize that I have to accept who she is today and realize that is different than the person I thought she was. She also needs to accept who she is and what she's become. Hopefully if she accepts it, she can recognize her mistakes and change for the better. I absolutely do not want to break up my family. I just need some hope that there is a real way to hold us together and work through this. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any actions that give me even the slightest chance of hope.


Not right now. But in the not so distance future, maybe.

Chap mentioned something called Plan A. I think that is from the Marriage Builders site. Have you read there at all?


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## Bananapeel

bandit.45 said:


> I think there is a lot of shame with this WW. The shame of what she did has paralyzed her to some degree. She cannot be contrite and sorrowful or show hr BH any compassion because she is so full of shame and self-degradation that she has no emotional room for anything else. Add her mourning the loss of her OM and you have a truly useless and pathetic woman.
> 
> I'm not saying this is an excuse, but it may explain her apparent lack of empathy.
> 
> I think she is so scared about her future that she has gone into possum freeze. She knows she fvcked up big time. She knows her BH is furious and is making his plans to exit stage. She is so scared she is going to say the wrong thing, do the wrong thing or not do enough that she is stuck in vapor-lock.
> 
> Shame is keeping her quiet.


I've thought this too. Hopefully with a little time she figure all of this out.


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## jld

Bananapeel said:


> I still have hope for us. But in the meantime I am going to proceed with D. Maybe it will lead to an awakening for her and we can figure out a way out of this mess. If not, it is the right choice.


Still did this, too. Then, about six weeks into it, he reread that link on reconciling with a hardened wife, and wrote her a letter based on its suggestions. His wife was moved to attempt reconciliation. 

Have you looked at his thread?


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## Bananapeel

I don't think I've seen that thread yet. I need to try to find it.

I want to point out that since D-Day my WW has never once said that she loves me and chooses me, or that she'll do anything to keep the family whole. Every day I hear her say how she misses the OM and can't believe that he hasn't contacted her and that she still loves him. That is my reality. :frown2:


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## tech-novelist

3putt said:


> Chap suggested pretty much the same thing earlier, only with just her OM and his wife. If he is actually going to allow this to happen, under the circumstances, I can't think of a better way to do it. Let's see if it's so real and romantic when the ones that are betrayed are there to listen to it with both of the betrayers.
> 
> Hell, this is no more insane than letting her listen to it in the first place, so if you're gonna go galactically stupid, then by God, go all out.


I guess this wouldn't be the right time to point out that you should never go full retard (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/full-retard)?


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## GusPolinski

Bananapeel said:


> I don't think I've seen that thread yet. I need to try to find it.


Gird your loins.

You might also want to keep a rare steak, a bottle of bourbon, and some testosterone supplements nearby.



Bananapeel said:


> I want to point out that since D-Day my WW has never once said that she loves me and chooses me, or that she'll do anything to keep the family whole. Every day I hear her say how she misses the OM and can't believe that he hasn't contacted her and that she still loves him. That is my reality. :frown2:


Ugh. Sorry man. 

That said...

...use the fog to your advantage.


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## jld

Bananapeel said:


> I don't think I've seen that thread yet. I need to try to find it.
> 
> I want to point out that since D-Day my WW has never once said that she loves me and chooses me, or that she'll do anything to keep the family whole. Every day I hear her say how she misses the OM and can't believe that he hasn't contacted her and that she still loves him. That is my reality. :frown2:


(((bananapeel)))

I think she does love you, deep down. She is in that fog. She cannot see yet.

Gosh, I am so sorry. I hear your pain. 

Are you visiting your family now? Are you getting the support you need?


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## OldWolf57

D, and nothing short of it BP. This is no fog, it pure selfishness and pity party.


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## Wazza

Bananapeel said:


> I don't think I've seen that thread yet. I need to try to find it.
> 
> I want to point out that since D-Day my WW has never once said that she loves me and chooses me, or that she'll do anything to keep the family whole. Every day I hear her say how she misses the OM and can't believe that he hasn't contacted her and that she still loves him. That is my reality. :frown2:


It's worth reading, and so is the website JLD linked to. Explore options.

When reading Still's thread, you will need to form a view on whether he is rugsweeping. Is it that things are going as he wants and he is happy, or is he trying to be positive about a situation that is not as he wants it?

ETA : I made this comment not to discuss Still. If we want to do that it should be in his thread not here. I'm offering a perspective that may be right or wrong to consider when you read it.

And another edit. Link to the thread : http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...home-i-doubt-she-will-like-advice-please.html


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## phillybeffandswiss

Bananapeel said:


> I don't think I've seen that thread yet. I need to try to find it.


Keep in mind he broke his wife's marriage, he was the OM, then she cheated on him.


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## jld

jld said:


> As I understood it, Ele said we are only allowed to address the OP.


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## bandit.45

Bananapeel you need to get out more. Start going out on weekend evenings by yourself. Get away from all that crazy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## May1968

Until his wife gets over her OM his marriage will never be safe. If the OM even gives a hint that he wants to see her again, even if it is on the sly because he wants to stay with his wife, she will start seeing him hoping that she can win him over. Only until she hits rock bottom will she ever get her priorities straight. I take it that BP may consider reconciliation at a later time if that happens. 

No hope for the marriage until she changes.


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## ThePheonix

May1968 said:


> If the OM even gives a hint that he wants to see her again, even if it is on the sly because he wants to stay with his wife, she will start seeing him hoping that she can win him over.


Taking these post literally, the OM can have her anytime and anyplace he wants her.


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## alte Dame

I don't really see the point of BP pursuing a course that would, given the particulars of his WW's affair & her position even now, result in a pyrrhic victory for him, maybe. That would probably be the best outcome.

Why shouldn't he go with the odds and select a course that is most likely to lead to a more fulfilling future for him? What really is the point for him of trying a strategy like 'the hardened wife' approach? It smacks of paternalism and pointless self-sacrifice, and, in my opinion, infantilizes a WW who doesn't appear to feel helpless and 'leadable' at all.

I'm sorry, but for me life is too short to make this sort of bet in a situation like his. I'm also very troubled by the way this approach seems to be based on the exculpation of a wayward wife compared to her husband. I firmly believe that it remains by and large a man's world, but I don't think this sort of reasoning levels the field. For me, it makes my head burn as I try to wrap my mind around it.

Needless to say, I am with those who think that the course that BP is following now is a healthy one for him.


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## Chaparral

Many us can get where we are going quite well. My wife on the other hand might drive fifteen miles to get five.

I think your wife is lost, can't figure out what to do now and has given up.

If and when you think she is ready for direction print this off and go over it with her. Go over it with her so you can judge her reaction. Communication is 80 % body language no matter what the texters, emailers say.

BTW, I am neither supporting divorce or reconciliation. This is totally your call. I don't think there is any doubt she is in denial about the other mans intentions or her gullibility.



Good luck and prayers

_[BUnderstanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly! 
][/B]_


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## OldWolf57

BP, just to explain. 

I see NO ONE and I mean NO ONE as a romantic partner worth all the pain you will have to go thru for R.
Yes, there is pain as you D, but you D knowing you are worth more than what some slime tried to bring you down to.

Where is her worry for your hurt? Does being a man mean you have to put the world before yourself? NO, you put your kids and yourself first.

This is no starry eyed young girl. This is an educated woman, that's giving no concern at all for your pain. Going so far as to even tell YOU how much she is missing him.
Do you not matter?
Does only her and her comforts matter?

She say she wants things stay the same for the kids, BUT, that also mean she still get her comforts and leisure.

So why should you go the next year or two nursing her sorry butt for the total destruction SHE put on your doorstep and in your bed, as she MOURN her lost love.

Why should you pin your hopes on a PROVEN sk##k, hoping she will affair proof your marriage.
What is so great about her that she get's to hurt you and the family and get's coddled for it. NOTHING !!!

A rant, well sort of, but I see and feel you still have hope for her, and I see the core you fighting that, but the doc cool thinking I see coming across I want counter that.

No there are no guarantees a new woman won't do the same, but look at all the things that go with the hunt. The Pulse pounding thrill of something new, spikes of pulse dressing to impress.
The wondering how that first kiss will taste.

Family first yes, but only when the person who offended is willing and eager. You don't have that. You don't even have acknowledgment and feeling for your pain and the destruction for the family.
Everyday you hear of HER pain, and HER loss, and HER love for him. 

Is this woman THAT special??


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## EleGirl

This is a second warning. Only post addressing the OP.

A ban will result for bickering between yourselves and thread jacks.


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## OldWolf57

BP, expect her action to change after a while. Your next thrill will be her anger at YOU for destroying her life with him.


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## bandit.45

badmemory said:


> BP,
> 
> In regards to the Marriage Builder's (Dr. Hartley's) "plan A"; that topic has been discussed on this forum multiple times and often sparks some controversy.
> 
> I have read the complete version, and as I understand it; it advises the BS to show patience and empathy for a period of months while the WS is "actively" in an affair. The idea being for the BS to present the best side of himself so that the WS's most recent experience with the BS is positive; thus motivating contrition. Only after that waiting period of months, would plan B go into effect, which is pursuing separation or divorce.
> 
> Your wife isn't exactly "actively" involved in the A, but she is emotionally invested in it. My guess is that Hartley's plan A would still be advised by him.
> 
> Hartley does offer some good tools and advice on his site. However, it is my opinion and the opinion of many other posters here, that his "plan A" is a pile of excrement.


But if you think about it, the 180 is a much better option, because if it is performed correctly, the 180 WILL show the BS's best side, because the BS will be emotionally controlled, showing signs of self improvement, getting in shape, dressing better, having a more positive attitude and getting back in touch with themselves in a healthy way. When the betrayer sees these changes they MAY, not will, start to show interest in the BS again. 

The problem with Hartley's plan A is that it requires the BS to invest too much of himself/herself emotionally in the WS's affair, at the expense of their own emotional well-being.


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## EleGirl

bandit.45 said:


> But if you think about it, the 180 is a much better option, because if it is performed correctly, the 180 WILL show the BS's best side, because the BS will be emotionally controlled, showing signs of self improvement, getting in shape, dressing better, having a more positive attitude and getting back in touch with themselves in a healthy way. When the betrayer sees these changes they MAY, not will, start to show interest in the BS again.
> 
> The problem with Hartley's plan A is that it requires the BS to invest too much of himself/herself emotionally in the WS's affair, at the expense of their own emotional well-being.


OK.. I"m going against my own warning here because I do think that this is important or the OP.

People often misunderstand Plan A & Plan B.

Plan A is normally done for only ONE or TWO weeks. That is per Dr. Harley. It does not require some heroic effort from the BS for weeks/month on end. 

After that, Plan B goes into place. Plan B is basically the same as the 180. The purpose of the 180 or Plan B is not to bring the WS back into the marriage. It is to protect the BS until either such time that the BS decides to return to the marriage, or until the BS has lost their love for the WS and just does not care anymore. When the BS does not care anymore... it's time to file for divorce.

There are a few people who are emotionally able to do Plan A for a long time. Again, according to Harley, in nearly 100% of those cases the WS returns to the marriage by the 2 year mark. But this is an individual choice whether or not a person can do Plan A this long.

It is not our place to tell/demand what another poster needs to do in their marriage. We can offer suggests and point to good resources. 

Different people will give different input. The OP is smart enough, I'm sure, to look through what is posted and decide for himself what actions he decides to take.


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## BetrayedDad

Bananapeel said:


> I want to point out that since D-Day my WW has never once said that she loves me and chooses me, or that she'll do anything to keep the family whole. Every day I hear her say how she misses the OM and can't believe that he hasn't contacted her and that she still loves him. That is my reality. :frown2:


I'm sorry man. What a living nightmare you are going through. If you haven't started yet, please consider the 180. As others have said it is NOT a tool to win your wife back. It is a way for you to start protecting YOUR emotional well being. You need to put up walls and detach from her. The pain will not stop until you get her out of your head. Distract yourself. Get busy living. Connect with old friends, go to the gym 3-4 days a week, spend time with family. 

You want to know WHY you never got your apology. Because she's NOT sorry. For her to say sorry is the same as her saying she regrets the affair. And she doesn't regret meeting her "true love" in her mind one bit. Hence, why she still pines for him. She is incapable of loving you anymore. You are the enemy. An obstacle that got in the way of her and her OM. I never got a heart felt apology either. Just a half a$$ attempt to weasel back under the security blanket. When that happens, politely tell her to beat it.

I PROMISE you there is another woman out there who would JUMP at the chance to love you whole heartedly. She is waiting for you but she is a respectable woman. She won't be with you while you are in the mist of separating/divorcing. Consider this your new mission. The FASTER you dump this broken person, the faster you will become available for Ms. Right to scoop you up. If you take too long in this hellish limbo you may miss her. So get your sh!t together and go find the love you DESERVE. She's out there looking for you.


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## badmemory

EleGirl said:


> People often misunderstand Plan A & Plan B.
> 
> *Plan A is normally done for only ONE or TWO weeks. *That is per Dr. Harley. It does not require some heroic effort from the BS for weeks/month on end.


I just copied and pasted this off his website:

*But what is a reasonable period of time to be in plan A? Based on my experience working with couples faced with this issue, I recommend three weeks of plan A for betrayed wives and and six months to a year for betrayed husbands.*


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## EleGirl

badmemory said:


> I just copied and pasted this off his website:
> 
> *But what is a reasonable period of time to be in plan A? Based on my experience working with couples faced with this issue, I recommend three weeks of plan A for betrayed wives and and six months to a year for betrayed husbands.*


In his book, "Surviving an Affair" he states that most people cannot do it for more than 2 weeks or so.

What he recommends on his website is what he sees works. But a lot of people cannot do that.

He also says _*"So one of the most important reasons for a spouse, particularly a wife, to go from plan A to plan B is to protect herself from the physical effects of long-term and intense stress. "
*_

What Are Plan A and Plan B?

If you want to discuss MB, start a thread.


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## Vulcan2013

EleGirl said:


> OK.. I"m going against my own warning here because I do think that this is important or the OP.
> 
> People often misunderstand Plan A & Plan B.
> 
> Plan A is normally done for only ONE or TWO weeks. That is per Dr. Harley. It does not require some heroic effort from the BS for weeks/month on end.
> 
> After that, Plan B goes into place. Plan B is basically the same as the 180. The purpose of the 180 or Plan B is not to bring the WS back into the marriage. It is to protect the BS until either such time that the BS decides to return to the marriage, or until the BS has lost their love for the WS and just does not care anymore. When the BS does not care anymore... it's time to file for divorce.
> 
> There are a few people who are emotionally able to do Plan A for a long time. Again, according to Harley, in nearly 100% of those cases the WS returns to the marriage by the 2 year mark. But this is an individual choice whether or not a person can do Plan A this long.
> 
> It is not our place to tell/demand what another poster needs to do in their marriage. We can offer suggests and point to good resources.
> 
> Different people will give different input. The OP is smart enough, I'm sure, to look through what is posted and decide for himself what actions he decides to take.


I think Plan A is advocated for months (for male BS) and for a few weeks (for female BS). This is because men are "stronger" and able to live with the huge disrespect for a longer time. I think for BP that living with the spouse openly pining for another will do long-term harm to his soul. 

Although I don't agree, I am glad there are some advising for R; it brings a different perspective to consider.

BP - I do see you as willing to R; have you communicated (I'd suggest in writing) to your WW your conditions to consider R?


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## ThePheonix

I really think Bananapeel has a good grasp of reality. How many ways does she have to tell him to get lost, I've found someone I like better before he decides, "maybe I need to just cut her loose". From her, in his face, admission that she wants the OM pretty well indicates that she's not interested in staying in the marriage. I don't think reconciliation is an option for him. When a woman brings another man into the marriage bed its a symbolic statement of disdain for and that she's replaced her husband. Her statement that she wished things were back like they used to be is her way of saying (womanese) she wants the home, the kids, Bananapeel working to support her SAH lifestyle and being able to slip the OM in the back door and into her bed with nobody the wiser.
Whether these two get divorced or somehow stay together in a tomb call reconciliation, rest assured the honeymoon is over.


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## convert

Bananapeel, I know you are in bad place right now, trying to decide the best course of action.

If you think it would help make a more resolved decision and *not do more damage to you*; You might want to listen to the VAR recording again (alone), from the beginning.

have you already listen to it more then once?

It might help make your mind up.


I know many BS have read and reread text and emails or listen to VAR recordings over and over from WS to the AP to better come to final conclusion.


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## phillybeffandswiss

I sill think the worse decision he made was listening to the counselor and playing her the recording. Sad how things have become worse since he kept his promise.

No, transparency was telling her he had a recording, exposure was letting her hear it.


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## Thor

Bananapeel, I think you are on the right course proceeding with D at this time. Some time in the future things may change. Or not. Nobody can know until the future arrives. Filing for D may or may not be the catalyst for her to have some kind of epiphany. If she does, R may become a real possibility. But not today, imho. If she does have that epiphany, you can put the D on hold. You can even D her and then some time in the future date her and get back together, if things go properly.

Best of luck.


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## Wazza

There's been talk about love and whether she loves you. But at the end of the day I think it is all hot air. Her actions are not loving, and you can't control that. Who cares what you call it? Actions count.

There is also a romantic notion of love, that I think informs some of the advice you are being given. There are views of what a man should be, and the idea is that if you attain that ideal your relationship will be ok. Personally I've never seen such a philosophy that I thought held water when examined closely. I'll just be who I am thanks. 

I still think you are doing a great job, and making all the right calls, under very difficult circumstances. Just be who you are.


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## May1968

BP, when she mourns the loss of your love rather than the loss of the OMs love, then reconciliation is posible, if you want it.


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## phillybeffandswiss

You know Bananapeel, it is okay not to wait to see if she wants you to be number one.


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## carmen ohio

Bananapeel said:


> I do take responsibility for it. The decision to divorce I have to make because she is unable to make any real decisions at this point. She chose the OM and is still choosing him, despite him refusing to have anything to do with her so he can reconcile his own marriage. Our marriage is not fixable without her giving a genuine effort to try to fix it. I really wish it was. She needs to find herself first and decide how she wants to live her life. Maybe that will eventually include me, but for now she is not choosing me or my family. I just can't accept that and feel that I have been given no choice about reconciliation because she won't commit. I'd give anything to make this mess go away, but I realize that I have to accept who she is today and realize that is different than the person I thought she was. She also needs to accept who she is and what she's become. Hopefully if she accepts it, she can recognize her mistakes and change for the better. I absolutely do not want to break up my family. I just need some hope that there is a real way to hold us together and work through this. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any actions that give me even the slightest chance of hope.


This is one of the most insightful posts by an OP that I have seen on TAM/CWI. It usually takes months, sometimes years, before a BS gets to this level of understanding, and many never do.

It makes me wonder if there is anything that we have to offer Bananapeel at the moment, other than moral support.


----------



## Chaparral

Bananapeel said:


> I don't think I've seen that thread yet. I need to try to find it.
> 
> I want to point out that since D-Day my WW has never once said that she loves me and chooses me, or that she'll do anything to keep the family whole. Every day I hear her say how she misses the OM and can't believe that he hasn't contacted her and that she still loves him. That is my reality. :frown2:


I guess I missed this post.

For her to tell you this continually is one of the most heartless, evil things I have seen on this forum. At least most waywards try to sugarcoat things a bit.

How on earth do you allow her to stay in the house? How do you continue to be a part of any conversation with her about anything but your kids? Having a convo with her after she has expressed this over and over is telling her what she has done is OK.

Help her pack, that's all you owe her.

She isn't going to come out of any fog as long as you are playing nice guy and losing even more respect. Time to start talking about her getting a job and getting on down the road.

Print off the divorce packet for your state or go to the county court house and get a packet. Set her down and start talking details. Assure her that her boy friend doesn't want to dump his family for a cheater but there is bound to be someone out there that she can eventually con into accepting her.


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## ThePheonix

Chaparral said:


> Assure her that her boy friend doesn't want to dump his family for a cheater but there is bound to be someone out there that she can eventually con into accepting her.


I'd recommend telling her that the boyfriend likely loves her but, like most men, he doesn't want to give up what he has because he's afraid when push comes to shove, she will want to reconcile with you, with him left out in the cold, holding the bag....That her dragging her feet about leaving you is what's making him ambivalent and he's put the ball in her court to see if she is going to give him anything to hang his hat on.... That you think that if she ever makes a clean break from the marriage, he will to ditch his wife to be with the one he truly loves but she is failing to show him any real commitment. Your just glad that the longer she stays the better chance she'll lose him completely as he gives up on her, so please don't leave and throw you in the brier patch by leaving.


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## RoseAglow

BP, I think it is worth checking out Marriage Builders if you harbor some hope of reconciliation somewhere down the line. The book is "Surviving An Affair." 

People on TAM hotly contest the Plan A aspect of MB. Like Ele, I think it is hugely misunderstood overall AND it also asks the Plan A'er to do a ton of self-improvement. It is not "Nicing" someone back because there is definitely a "stick" aspect. For instance, you would not be asked to tolerate your wife talking about her lovesickness for the OM. You would be encouraged to stop all affair conversation. But there IS the goal of basically being the best spouse, the best person, you can be, which means the wayward spouse gets a much better spouse than they "deserve." This is what causes people to believe that it is Plan Doormat or trying to "Nice" someone back.

That said- sadly, it is pretty common for wayward wives to not be remorseful at first. It takes a long time, often several months, for exactly the reason that you're seeing now. Women are usually emotionally entrenched in their affair. Most women blame the husband for their actions. JLD said that your wife is an emotional ICU and I think that is true. She doesn't know if she is coming or going. As you said, she is drowning in self-remorse. This is pretty common. It happens, but it's a rare WW who realizes right away that she is actually the one who is the cause of all this misery. She just tends to be stick in it. As has been noted, we have seen WW commit suicide on this forum. 

Harley says that the best plan of action for reconciliation for a BH/WW is to do most of what you're doing. That is, be strong, be clear, be a rock. He would not recommend that you move towards divorce if what you really want is a reconciliation. I think he would recommend that you give it some time, 6 months-1 year, and be the best husband you can be. Your wife would need to agree to his list of actions, including a no contact letter, absolutely zero contact with OM/OWM, spending 15 hours a week minimum together to rebuild the love bank, and probably a physical move to avoid any potential contact with the OM in town, at the kids' school etc. It's all in the book.

He would tell you that if you follow this, and if the affair has truly ended (and you should be snooping like mad to find out if this is the case), chances are very high that within that 6 months-1 year, your wife will be back in love with you and you will see the remorse. Feelings follow actions. 

If the year passes and there are no changes, you will know you have done everything possible. Your kids will know that you have done everything possible. They will have seen it. It is the hardest challenge you can give yourself, just at the hardest, most painful and devastating time in your life. It's not for the faint-hearted. It's why Harley tells men to try to stick it out for the long-term, but women tend to lose it after only a few weeks. Men can stay in their heads while women tend to be much more affected by the emotions. It is emotionally very, very challenging.

TAM is 180 degrees from MB in this case (pun intended.) You are right that you will hardly see any MB success stories here, and this is because TAM heavily advocates that the BS push for divorce. TAM advocates for the emotional well-being of the BS, and the MB method is incredibly extracting on the (short-term) well-being of the BS. However, his strategy has worked for many people, you can find them on other forums. They tend to get run off on TAM. 

Harley also says that he does not blame anyone for choosing to go straight to divorce. Another highly controversial statement from him is that infidelity is the most painful thing most people will ever go through; he has had clients who have been raped, who have lost their children, and they told him that as horrible as those things were, the infidelity was the most painful thing in their lives. 

I am posting because it sounds like you would prefer to reconcile, if only your wife would get on-board. I think that is quite reasonable. I suggest that you might be better served by stretching out your timeline for when she would need to be on-board, if you wanted to test out the reconciliation waters.


----------



## Dyokemm

BP,

Roseaglow, Ele, and jld are right in saying that most people on TAM view Plan A as trying to 'nice' a WS back....and most of us do not think it works at all.

Based on your agreement with my post where I said you would feel rugsweeping and reconciling with your WW as her Plan B while she is still pining for POSOM would be a huge betrayal of your self-respect and personal morals/values, I think you will find it to be useless as well.

It's not misunderstood by posters here....many of it just feel that:

1) It doesn't work

2) It is too degrading, damaging, and humiliating for the BS 

3) A WS needs CONSEQUENCES for their sh*tty choices....not a desperate BS playing the stupid 'pick me' dance

But I agree with Roseaglow about one thing....it doesn't hurt to go to MB and check out threads where others share their attempts to do it.

I think you will, based on your own values and beliefs, will see that it would require you to reverse what you are doing and attempt to do exactly what your WW is requesting.

And reading some of the MB threads to see just how soul-crushing and degrading it can be to Plan A will give you a better idea if that it something you would even consider.

In addition, IMO very few of them actually seem to truly R in my opinion.

What I, and many others see, is a whole lot of rugsweeping of the A and the WS's crappy behavior.

Some people seem to be able to rugsweep an A and think that they have saved their M.....my take is they have shattered their own pride and dignity eating a sh*t sandwich served up by their WS....all to 'win' back a person who is probably likely to repeat the behavior if they feel unhappy in the M again in the future because they have had ZERO consequences for doing it the first time.

In fact, IMO, Plan A probably reinforces their already huge sense of entitlement.

Personally, I think they need to feel the sting of disgust and rejection....THEY are not a prize....they should be the ones desperately trying to give their BS a reason why the BS should actually decide to keep them at all.


----------



## Wazza

RoseAglow said:


> BP, I think it is worth checking out Marriage Builders if you harbor some hope of reconciliation somewhere down the line. The book is "Surviving An Affair."
> 
> People on TAM hotly contest the Plan A aspect of MB. Like Ele, I think it is hugely misunderstood overall AND it also asks the Plan A'er to do a ton of self-improvement. It is not "Nicing" someone back because there is definitely a "stick" aspect. For instance, you would not be asked to tolerate your wife talking about her lovesickness for the OM. You would be encouraged to stop all affair conversation. But there IS the goal of basically being the best spouse, the best person, you can be, which means the wayward spouse gets a much better spouse than they "deserve." This is what causes people to believe that it is Plan Doormat or trying to "Nice" someone back.
> 
> That said- sadly, it is pretty common for wayward wives to not be remorseful at first. It takes a long time, often several months, for exactly the reason that you're seeing now. Women are usually emotionally entrenched in their affair. Most women blame the husband for their actions. JLD said that your wife is an emotional ICU and I think that is true. She doesn't know if she is coming or going. As you said, she is drowning in self-remorse. This is pretty common. It happens, but it's a rare WW who realizes right away that she is actually the one who is the cause of all this misery. She just tends to be stick in it. As has been noted, we have seen WW commit suicide on this forum.
> 
> Harley says that the best plan of action for reconciliation for a BH/WW is to do most of what you're doing. That is, be strong, be clear, be a rock. He would not recommend that you move towards divorce if what you really want is a reconciliation. I think he would recommend that you give it some time, 6 months-1 year, and be the best husband you can be. Your wife would need to agree to his list of actions, including a no contact letter, absolutely zero contact with OM/OWM, spending 15 hours a week minimum together to rebuild the love bank, and probably a physical move to avoid any potential contact with the OM in town, at the kids' school etc. It's all in the book.
> 
> He would tell you that if you follow this, and if the affair has truly ended (and you should be snooping like mad to find out if this is the case), chances are very high that within that 6 months-1 year, your wife will be back in love with you and you will see the remorse. Feelings follow actions.
> 
> If the year passes and there are no changes, you will know you have done everything possible. Your kids will know that you have done everything possible. They will have seen it. It is the hardest challenge you can give yourself, just at the hardest, most painful and devastating time in your life. It's not for the faint-hearted. It's why Harley tells men to try to stick it out for the long-term, but women tend to lose it after only a few weeks. Men can stay in their heads while women tend to be much more affected by the emotions. It is emotionally very, very challenging.
> 
> TAM is 180 degrees from MB in this case (pun intended.) You are right that you will hardly see any MB success stories here, and this is because TAM heavily advocates that the BS push for divorce. TAM advocates for the emotional well-being of the BS, and the MB method is incredibly extracting on the (short-term) well-being of the BS. However, his strategy has worked for many people, you can find them on other forums. They tend to get run off on TAM.
> 
> Harley also says that he does not blame anyone for choosing to go straight to divorce. Another highly controversial statement from him is that infidelity is the most painful thing most people will ever go through; he has had clients who have been raped, who have lost their children, and they told him that as horrible as those things were, the infidelity was the most painful thing in their lives.
> 
> I am posting because it sounds like you would prefer to reconcile, if only your wife would get on-board. I think that is quite reasonable. I suggest that you might be better served by stretching out your timeline for when she would need to be on-board, if you wanted to test out the reconciliation waters.


BP, I would agree with a lot of what has been written here, but with some comments.

First you need to look at what sort of character your wife has, and think about why the affair occurred. This is because, down the track, if you do save your marriage, it will have been changed forever and you will wonder if it was worth saving. I'm not saying it isn't. I am saying that if you get over the crisis still together, the question will occur to you. I have seen marriages supposedly heal only to collapse years later.

Second, and related, if you save your marriage the next phase is going to be working on the problems that existed before the affair and that will be hard. It is a much longer journey than six to twelve months. For example, she'll still be the wife who thought you were boring to be out earning that boring pay check. If that is seriously and deeply how she feels, what will that mean for your relationship ongoing?

There is no guarantee that falling out of love with OM means your wife will fall back in love with you. (But it can and does happen, it's just not guaranteed).

This is not to say you shouldn't try, just that you should give it some thought. Know why you are reconciling. Consider whether you are at the point to even try.

And if you do try, think about the emotional support you need and where it's going to come from, because you won't get it from your wife.


----------



## bandit.45

I think it all comes down to deciding if you want to spend one year swallowing your pride and self esteem hoping to end your partner's affair. Then comes five years of recovery and building a new marriage...if, and only if the WS is willing to put in the hard work. But then, often times once the WS has had a taste of someone else, they lose all sexual attraction they once had for the BS... if they even had any in the first place. So that's another hurdle that may have to be jumped. By year six or seven, the BS has enough emotional distance from the affair to look back and really look at the whole crisis dispassionately and objectively, and often what they find is that this person they fought so hard for really wasn't worth the effort. They stand back and really look at the WS and see all the wrinkles and bad habits and quirks and bullsh!t and they say "I spent the last seven years of my life fighting for this?" 

That's why I think R just doesn't work for the long lifetime haul. If you have kids, yeah, do what you can to R enough to get them out of school and on their own, but don't promise your WS much afterwards. Because I guarantee after that time the WS's allure will dim and you will be looking for more fulfillment.


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## ThePheonix

bandit.45 said:


> I think it all comes down to deciding if you want to spend one year swallowing your pride and self esteem hoping to end your partner's affair. Then comes five years of recovery and building a new marriage...


That will be the evaluation Bananapeel will have to make doing a side by side comparison with what she has to potentially offer with what other women have. (assuming you dont what to spend the rest of your life alone). Again, there is no indication she is willing to settle for you as her fall back guy while you scurry about and spending years hoping to put humpty dumpty back together again. I can only imagine what your love life would be like during this prolonged and tortuous ritual only to possible get back less than you had to begin with. Its kinda like having a stolen car returned to you after its been ramrodded by the thief. It ain't gonna be the same. I'd have to go with what's behind door 2 or 3.


----------



## bandit.45

ThePheonix said:


> That will be the evaluation Bananapeel will have to make doing a side by side comparison with what she has to potentially offer with what other women have. (assuming you dont what to spend the rest of your life alone). Again, there is no indication she is willing to settle for you as her fall back guy while you scurry about and spending years hoping to put humpty dumpty back together again. I can only imagine what your love life would be like during this prolonged and tortuous ritual only to possible get back less than you had to begin with. Its kinda like having a stolen car returned to you after its been ramrodded by the thief. It ain't gonna be the same. I'd have to go with what's behind door 2 or 3.


In the end it comes down to the question of practicality. 

Why should I, as a healthy, sexual, normal male with needs and wants and desires, put those needs on hold and going through all the pain and angst for five years to try to R with a dysfunctional spouse and her sh!t, when I could spend six months divorcing her and then another couple of years having fun with a variety of dating partners until I find one who is compatible and a good risk, re-commit, start anew with a new wife and new life? 

Just judging by the anecdotal evidence I have seen here on TAM and SI, the people who dumped their cheating spouses and remarried new spouses are far, far happier and more content than those who chose to stay with wishy washy, half-hearted ex-wayward partners. Tell me I'm wrong.


----------



## Wazza

bandit.45 said:


> In the end it comes down to the question of practicality.
> 
> Why should I, as a healthy, sexual, normal male with needs and wants and desires, put those needs on hold and going through all the pain and angst for five years to try to R with a dysfunctional spouse and her sh!t, when I could spend six months divorcing her and then another couple of years having fun with a variety of dating partners until I find one who is compatible and a good risk, re-commit, start anew with a new wife and new life?
> 
> Just judging by the anecdotal evidence I have seen here on TAM and SI, the people who dumped their cheating spouses and remarried new spouses are far, far happier and more content than those who chose to stay with wishy washy, half-hearted ex-wayward partners. Tell me I'm wrong.


Ok, you're wrong.



More seriously, I don't see proof that either reconciles or divorcers are happier, I think is is case by case.

You have to define the role of marriage. There are implications for children, finances and such. They don't have to be important to you, but they matter to some people. There is love, there is sex and there is companionship, and I think a lot of marriages involve trade offs in the balance between those.

You have this big emphasis on what you call pride and self esteem. That's ok, everyone needs to make their own decision. But to me that worldview always reminds me of Marty McFly..."nobody calls me chicken". It's like self esteem has to be proven. I just don't feel a need to prove it. I know inside me that I did right. If my marriage ends tomorrow, for me reconciling was right.

I think from our posts in the last little while we assess the facts of the situation in much the same way, but we differ in how we would respond. Hopefully this is helping BP figure out what he wants, which is after all the point of this thread.


----------



## badmemory

Wazza said:


> You have to define the role of marriage. There are implications for children, finances and such. They don't have to be important to you, but they matter to some people. *There is love, there is sex and there is companionship, and I think a lot of marriages involve trade offs in the balance between those.*


Well said.


----------



## Chaparral

Chaparral said:


> I guess I missed this post.
> 
> For her to tell you this continually is one of the most heartless, evil things I have seen on this forum. At least most waywards try to sugarcoat things a bit.
> 
> How on earth do you allow her to stay in the house? How do you continue to be a part of any conversation with her about anything but your kids? Having a convo with her after she has expressed this over and over is telling her what she has done is OK.
> 
> Help her pack, that's all you owe her.
> 
> She isn't going to come out of any fog as long as you are playing nice guy and losing even more respect. Time to start talking about her getting a job and getting on down the road.
> 
> Print off the divorce packet for your state or go to the county court house and get a packet. Set her down and start talking details. Assure her that her boy friend doesn't want to dump his family for a cheater but there is bound to be someone out there that she can eventually con into accepting her.


I want to make it clear I was advising this to shake your wife up, not to literally run her off. She's wallowing in self pity and denying the fact she was played.0


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## Bananapeel

This site and group has been very helpful, probably far more than any one realized. Thanks to everyone for the advice. I am out of town reconnecting with family and friends, and more importantly rediscovering my identity. I'll be making a final decision soon, after I get back from my trip. I probably won't be posting much until then.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

BP,

There are people who reconcile and go on to have good marriages. I know many in my own real life. This is both men and women how were betrayed. Yes it's rough going for a while. But I don't know anyone who took this path and regrets it.

I know people who were cheated on and divorced and have gone on to good second marriages or relationships. 

I know some BS's who regret leaving. Their lives are not better after that.

There is no one answer for everyone.

What's important is that you get the information and resources that you need to make the choice that you feel it right for you. I would hope that people would support you in whatever decision you make.


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## ThePheonix

In the final analysis, some BSs regret leaving while some regret staying.
The difference is that regrets about leaving are based on speculation about what might have been. Regrets about staying however, are based on actual events subsequent to the reconciliation.


----------



## Wazza

ThePheonix said:


> In the final analysis, some BSs regret leaving while some regret staying.
> The difference is that regrets about leaving are based on speculation about what might have been. Regrets about staying however, are based on actual events subsequent to the reconciliation.


Perhaps you could elaborate on the second paragraph. I think you are wrong, but you make an important point and the idea is worth exploring.


----------



## EleGirl

ThePheonix said:


> In the final analysis, some BSs regret leaving while some regret staying.
> The difference is that regrets about leaving are based on speculation about what might have been. Regrets about staying however, are based on actual events subsequent to the reconciliation.


If someone regrets staying, they can leave. That's is easy to fix.


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## ThePheonix

Not following you Ele. If they regret leaving, they would have already left.


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## EleGirl

ThePheonix said:


> Not following you Ele. If they regret leaving, they would have already left.


opps.. fixed it


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## bandit.45

:laugh:


----------



## Dyokemm

"In the final analysis, some BSs regret leaving while some regret staying.
The difference is that regrets about leaving are based on speculation about what might have been. Regrets about staying however, are based on actual events subsequent to the reconciliation."

Well said!

Regretting staying is based on actual events that have occurred during the R.

Regretting leaving is based entirely on 'what if ?' questions and thoughts.

And since the majority of people seem to focus on remembering the positives in their pasts, they get a skewed view of reality.

For example....I went to the Naval Academy....it was a crappy place to be in MOST ways.

But when my nephews or students ask about those times, I usually end up relating the fun times I had with my buddies and other good memories of the place.

One of my students commented one time that it sounded like a fun place to go to school....I was taken aback at first...told him that, no, it actually s*cked most of the time IMO.

But then it hit me that the way I was relating my stories and memories presented a far different picture of the Academy than the reality of the place.

I could say similar things about my time in the fleet.

I think its just natural that our memories tend to focus more on the fun and good times that the really sh*tty ones.

I think many BS's in particular fall into this trap....how often do we hear BS's saying that all they want back is their pre-A M.

It makes sense if they were happy.....but the thing is that M is dead and gone. 

And I think that most BS's who say they regret leaving are probably doing something similar.....that and they probably have had some further negative experiences in life post-D that they assume would not have happened or they would have dealt with much different if they had their old spouse at their side.....funny thing is though, I bet they are picturing their PRE-A spouse at their side in these flights of fancy.

And that person is as dead and gone as the old M IMO.


----------



## Thor

RoseAglow said:


> People on TAM hotly contest the Plan A aspect of MB. Like Ele, I think it is hugely misunderstood overall AND it also asks the Plan A'er to do a ton of self-improvement. It is not "Nicing" someone back because there is definitely a "stick" aspect.


I agree with your entire post, but want to point out that in the case of a Nice Guy the MB plan is death. A man who has put his wife on a pedestal, who has poor self confidence (at least regarding women), and who constantly puts other people first, will get destroyed by the philosophy of the MB plan.

I don't get the impression Bananapeel is a Nice Guy. Though he is well beyond the time frame of Plan A, so I think it is past time to move to Plan B.


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## Wazza

Dyokemm said:


> I think many BS's in particular fall into this trap....how often do we hear BS's saying that all they want back is their pre-A M.
> 
> It makes sense if they were happy.....but the thing is that M is dead and gone.


Yep, you have to deal with it if you want to reconcile. It can be done. 

The affair no longer defines our marriage. Some of the problems that helped cause it are still extant, and they are a bigger problem for me than the ghost of OM. They would have been a problem if the affair had never happened.


----------



## Dyokemm

"Some of the problems that helped cause it are still extant, and they are a bigger problem for me than the ghost of OM. They would have been a problem if the affair had never happened."

Good point Wazza.

And yet, YOU don't cheat....I think this is the part of blameshifting that irritates me the most.

The BS often has as many, if not more complaints and gripes about the M as the WS does....but they somehow managed to not turn into a POS traitor.

When my LTgf asked me for a second chance 8 months after D-Day and our split, she tried bringing up some of the issues we were having at the time (a lot of which seemed to me to be fallout from the fact her dad died of Lou Gehrig's Disease a month and a half before I caught her).

I just looked at her in disgust and said, "Really?.....because I remember being unhappy with the lack of communication and intimacy we were going through at that time too.....BUT, I didn't run off and f*ck my co-worker."

I was willing to keep trying to work through the problems with her cause I loved her....UNTIL I found out she was a worthless cheat. At that point, I lost all interest in fixing anything....she disgusted me and I couldn't end the R fast enough.


----------



## Wazza

Dyokemm said:


> "Some of the problems that helped cause it are still extant, and they are a bigger problem for me than the ghost of OM. They would have been a problem if the affair had never happened."
> 
> Good point Wazza.
> 
> And yet, YOU don't cheat....I think this is the part of blameshifting that irritates me the most.
> 
> The BS often has as many, if not more complaints and gripes about the M as the WS does....but they somehow managed to not turn into a POS traitor.
> 
> When my LTgf asked me for a second chance 8 months after D-Day and our split, she tried bringing up some of the issues we were having at the time (a lot of which seemed to me to be fallout from the fact her dad died of Lou Gehrig's Disease a month and a half before I caught her).
> 
> I just looked at her in disgust and said, "Really?.....because I remember being unhappy with the lack of communication and intimacy we were going through at that time too.....BUT, I didn't run off and f*ck my co-worker."
> 
> I was willing to keep trying to work through the problems with her cause I loved her....UNTIL I found out she was a worthless cheat. At that point, I lost all interest in fixing anything....she disgusted me and I couldn't end the R fast enough.


Is it that you felt "once a cheat always a cheat" i.e. she was inherently flawed? Or is it that the pain was such that you had to walk away for the sake of your own heart...the emotional price of reconciliation was too much?


----------



## bfree

I personally don't believe once a cheat always a cheat. I do however believe that cheating on a loved one exposes a character flaw that, if not worked through dictates a high probability of repeat behavior.


----------



## Dyokemm

Wazza,

I do believe people can change....but it doesn't matter to me if the offense is of an especially heinous nature.

I do not forgive people who wrong me in those cases.

They are dead to me from that point forward...no exceptions.

I could care less if she was capable of change or not....there was never going to be a R attempt.

To me, betrayal ranks up there with murder, rape, etc, as one of the most horrid and unforgiveable things a human can do to another.


----------



## Wazza

Dyokemm said:


> Wazza,
> 
> I do believe people can change....but it doesn't matter to me if the offense is of an especially heinous nature.
> 
> I do not forgive people who wrong me in those cases.
> 
> They are dead to me from that point forward...no exceptions.
> 
> I could care less if she was capable of change or not....there was never going to be a R attempt.
> 
> To me, betrayal ranks up there with murder, rape, etc, as one of the most horrid and unforgiveable things a human can do to another.


If its a deal breaker, its a deal breaker. Fair enough. 

Last question, I think. Do you take that position for all betrayal, or just sexual infidelity?


----------



## Dyokemm

Wazza,

For ALL betrayals.

Traitors are the lowest of the low.

I'm no longer religious, but I came from a VERY religious family and still remember Scripture.

It always struck me that many biblical figures were murderers (Moses, David) but were still forgiven and accepted by God.

But the traitors, such as Judas Iscariot, were forever cursed.

It really is the lowest form of human behavior to betray those who love and trust you....unforgivable.


----------



## convert

Bananapeel said:


> This site and group has been very helpful, probably far more than any one realized. Thanks to everyone for the advice. I am out of town reconnecting with family and friends, and more importantly rediscovering my identity. I'll be making a final decision soon, after I get back from my trip. I probably won't be posting much until then.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not that it may matter much banana peel, but did you have something in place to assure NC between your ww and OM when you are on your trip? or is your ww with you?


----------



## RoseAglow

Hi BP, 

I am back from vacation, I hope you have been able to get some downtime on your vacation.

I disagree with Dyokemm on most of his points. 

His #1: Plan A does work for some, but not all. It has at least an equal to and very likely superior success rate than TAM- there are very few TAM successful reconciliations where the BH went right to divorce. I am not sure there are any? Wazza, who is posting, was much more Plan A than Plan TAM, yes? 

His #3: There are many consequences. Your and the WS's entire lives change as a result of the infidelity. She would open her life up entirely, there are no secrets, there is 100% accountability at all times. There would be "extraordinary precautions"/boundaries for both of you, and she would provide you "just compensation." Most couples are encouraged to pick up their lives and move locations. Oftentimes people change entire careers. Everything changes. 

If the reconciling couple does it correctly, the ability to have an affair is removed to a very, very high extent. Whatever the circumstances were that allowed the affair to occur is resolved. MB is not about saving a crippled marriage, it is about making a stronger marriage.

There is no rug-sweeping in the MB program. However, you are not encouraged to berate the WS or treat the WS like a dog, rubbing his/her face in the sh!tty choices that have been made. You don't bring up the faults of either spouse in any kind of malicious manner. 
MB is about repairing the marriage and bringing two people back in love with each other other, then protecting the relationship. 

Also, Plan A is not how someone is expected to live throughout the marriage. It occurs while the affair is on and early in the reconciliation only. Once the affair has ended and the relationship is being rebuilt, Plan A ends. If the WS will not work to build a better marriage at that point, the marriage ends. 


However, I agree somewhat with Dyokemm's second point: it is incredibly difficult. The BS has to be able to put aside the human tendency to push back against someone who has hurt them. I don't agree that it is humiliating or degrading unless the BS is someone who believes that we should treat the other the person the same way that the person has treated us. You have to get to a very high level of human mastery, to be someone who says "I am going to treat my WS based on my own personal philosophy." You are going to be treating that person much, much better than the WS is treating you. There are "sticks" and boundaries in Plan A, but it is 
very challenging.


I have learned a lot from reading the MB forums but I would never recommend that anyone post there. I have seen MB forum people harass a poster because they followed the advice of their paid MB counselor and not the forum Greek Choir. However, there are excellent posters at Marriage Advocates, people who used to be very active at MB but left due to the rather rabid atmosphere at MB. I would post there long before posting on MB directly.

Mostly though, if you are at all interested in learning more, I recommend just reading the book and/or emailing the author directly. He is very accessible. He is not a "marriage at all costs" counselor and I have heard him tell numerous BSs that their best bet for happiness is likely divorce, because not all spouses are good marriage material. 

This is all only if you have a strong desire for reconciliation. I don't blame you at all if you don't and would rather just go for divorce. If you do though, I think you should take a look at other options besides plan TAM. Plan TAM as far as BS's emotional health/divorce is good; Plan TAM as far as successful reconciliation isn't so great.



Dyokemm said:


> BP,
> 
> Roseaglow, Ele, and jld are right in saying that most people on TAM view Plan A as trying to 'nice' a WS back....and most of us do not think it works at all.
> 
> Based on your agreement with my post where I said you would feel rugsweeping and reconciling with your WW as her Plan B while she is still pining for POSOM would be a huge betrayal of your self-respect and personal morals/values, I think you will find it to be useless as well.
> 
> It's not misunderstood by posters here....many of it just feel that:
> 
> 1) It doesn't work
> 
> 2) It is too degrading, damaging, and humiliating for the BS
> 
> 3) A WS needs CONSEQUENCES for their sh*tty choices....not a desperate BS playing the stupid 'pick me' dance
> 
> But I agree with Roseaglow about one thing....it doesn't hurt to go to MB and check out threads where others share their attempts to do it.
> 
> I think you will, based on your own values and beliefs, will see that it would require you to reverse what you are doing and attempt to do exactly what your WW is requesting.
> 
> And reading some of the MB threads to see just how soul-crushing and degrading it can be to Plan A will give you a better idea if that it something you would even consider.
> 
> In addition, IMO very few of them actually seem to truly R in my opinion.
> 
> What I, and many others see, is a whole lot of rugsweeping of the A and the WS's crappy behavior.
> 
> Some people seem to be able to rugsweep an A and think that they have saved their M.....my take is they have shattered their own pride and dignity eating a sh*t sandwich served up by their WS....all to 'win' back a person who is probably likely to repeat the behavior if they feel unhappy in the M again in the future because they have had ZERO consequences for doing it the first time.
> 
> In fact, IMO, Plan A probably reinforces their already huge sense of entitlement.
> 
> Personally, I think they need to feel the sting of disgust and rejection....THEY are not a prize....they should be the ones desperately trying to give their BS a reason why the BS should actually decide to keep them at all.


----------



## Dyokemm

Roseaglow,

No problems with your disagreement.

We just happen to see things VERY differently....and that's OK.

I personally think it is a good thing for a poster to hear divergent, and even opposing, opinions so that he or she can choose a path that works best for them.

That's why I agreed with you that it would not be a terrible idea for BP to go read some threads on MB to see for himself how the Plan A is advised and followed over there.

I still think it doesn't really work....I've never seen a true case of 'nicing' a WS back into a M that doesn't smell of rugsweeping to me IMO.

But I have read countless threads, and known people IRL, where BS's admit they sometimes have low self-esteem and can hardly look themselves in the mirror because they used 'nicing'/rugsweeping to keep their M together.

These BS's have said they have never truly gotten over the feeling that they sold out their own pride and dignity....that their WS went out and cheated and then got 'rewarded' with a BS who bent over backwards to address their complaints.

In addition, they often feel that the things the WS did before the M that annoyed or irritated them never really got addressed and are still present in the M....which has sort of devolved into making the WS 'happy' in the M since they are the one who stepped out and were ready to leave (in fact Wazza, and I just recently had an exchange about this issue).

Some people can do this and stay in the M....personally I would NEVER want or accept a M like that.


----------



## azteca1986

RoseAglow said:


> His #1: Plan A does work for some, but not all. It has at least an equal to and very likely superior success rate than TAM- there are very few TAM successful reconciliations where the BH went right to divorce. I am not sure there are any?


This is a misrepresentation. "Plan TAM" is _prepare_ for divorce. Go see a lawyer and find out your rights and responsibilities.

The BSs who go straight for divorce don't bother posting on TAM


----------



## GusPolinski

Hi BP, hope you're doing well.

And I do hope you're not buying into all of the horribly self-effacing tripe that's been thrown at you over the course of the past few pages. I'm a fairly imaginative person, but I can't think of much that would be more corrosive to a person's sense of self-worth than sitting around and patiently waiting -- for six months to a year!!! -- for whatever scraps of affection, remorse, or respect his or her wayward can be bothered to toss his or her way.

Six months to a year? You've GOT to be f*cking kidding me. And (possibly) while the wayward is still engaged in an affair, no less...?!? It might be called "Plan A", but it sure has all the hallmarks of "Plan Doormat".

And for what? To hold out hope that your gem of a WW -- who brought another man into your home so that he could f*ck her in your bed, and all while seeking to mislead you into as gentle and beneficial a dissolution of your marriage as possible -- MIGHT stop pining for OM and come back to you? Ugh. No.

I'm all for reconciliation, but this Plan Doormat crap is just horrible. It might "work" for some, but I honestly can't see how any of them can look at themselves in the mirror.

Your path is your own, and I'd encourage you to stay on it, wherever it might lead you, but PLEASE... please don't sell your soul to buy the boots that you'd need to walk it.

And hey, I'm just wondering... have they taken the affair underground yet?


----------



## Bananapeel

I am back from my trip and had plenty of time to think about what I really wanted in a partner and for my future. We both agree that D is the best option for us. I'm working with an attorney and moving forward with the process. Since we have kids we'll be in each other's lives forever so we are trying to keep things friendly. That's actually not hard since we've always liked each other and had a good marriage prior to the affair. We'll probably be at each other's place quite frequently and do family activities together, at least in the beginning. I think that will be the easiest transition for the kids. This whole process sucks. I wouldn't have believed that my life would take this turn if I was asked a year ago.


----------



## Bananapeel

I don't know if the affair is still going on. She says no and said that he won't speak with her. At this point it doesn't really matter to me since we aren't trying to stay together. I don't think they were in contact when I was out of town, but who knows.


----------



## GusPolinski

Bananapeel said:


> I don't know if the affair is still going on. *She says no and said that he won't speak with her.* At this point it doesn't really matter to me since we aren't trying to stay together. I don't think they were in contact when I was out of town, but who knows.


It's worth nothing that this likely means that she's still attempting to reach out to him.

Still, it seems like your head is in a good place.


----------



## RoseAglow

BP, I don't blame you at all for your decision. There are many BHs on TAM who have divorced and have moved onto happily, fulfilling lives. If you have enough posts, you might check the Private Forum, there are two such BHs posting currently.

I wish you the best of luck moving forward.


----------



## Bananapeel

GusPolinski said:


> It's worth nothing that this likely means that she's still attempting to reach out to him.
> 
> Still, it seems like your head is in a good place.


She told me she called him once and left a message, but he didn't call back. That's all I know about. But like I said, at this point it doesn't matter. Once she is setup in her own place she will be free to do whatever she wants.


----------



## Wazza

GusPolinski said:


> Hi BP, hope you're doing well.
> 
> And I do hope you're not buying into all of the horribly self-effacing tripe that's been thrown at you over the course of the past few pages. I'm a fairly imaginative person, but I can't think of much that would be more corrosive to a person's sense of self-worth than sitting around and patiently waiting -- for six months to a year!!! -- for whatever scraps of affection, remorse, or respect his or her wayward can be bothered to toss his or her way.
> 
> Six months to a year? You've GOT to be f*cking kidding me. And (possibly) while the wayward is still engaged in an affair, no less...?!? It might be called "Plan A", but it sure has all the hallmarks of "Plan Doormat".


Actually, looking all that sh1t in the face, staring it down, and taking control is very good for your self esteem in the end. 

To me, letting your actions be determined by a need to prove you are not a doormat, rather than what you want, is the action of a doormat.


----------



## GusPolinski

Wazza said:


> Actually, looking all that sh1t in the face, staring it down, and taking control is very good for your self esteem in the end.
> 
> To me, letting your actions be determined by a need to prove you are not a doormat, rather than what you want, is the action of a doormat.


Sure. Keep telling yourself that.

You might eventually believe it.

ETA: Actually, you know what... I take that back. I'd definitely advise a BS "look all that sh*t in the face, stare it down, and take control". Where we'll differ is in what that entails.

It's not about convincing yourself that you're not a doormat, or behaving in such a way that would lead you or anyone else to believe that you're not a doormat -- it's about not BEING a doormat.

Enacting this "Plan A" stuff is _being_ a doormat.


----------



## Wazza

GusPolinski said:


> Sure. Keep telling yourself that.
> 
> You might eventually believe it.
> 
> ETA: Actually, you know what... I take that back. I'd definitely advise a BS "look all that sh*t in the face, stare it down, and take control". Where we'll differ is in what that entails.
> 
> It's not about convincing yourself that you're not a doormat, or behaving in such a way that would lead you or anyone else to believe that you're not a doormat -- it's about not BEING a doormat.
> 
> Enacting this "Plan A" stuff is _being_ a doormat.


Following any recipe, plan A, plan TAM or whatever, without thought is weak. Study them, understand them, take what is useful for your situation, discard what isn't. 

BP is doing that and he's doing just fine.


----------



## GusPolinski

Wazza said:


> Following any recipe, plan A, plan TAM or whatever, without thought is weak. Study them, understand them, take what is useful for your situation, discard what isn't.


Generalizations aside, it sort of depends on what you mean by "without thought".



Wazza said:


> BP is doing that and he's doing just fine.


I'd agree.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

[email protected] TAM. 

BP I'm glad you posted, continually communicated with your wife, talked to family and am glad you are moving forward.
Don't let anyone guilt you into feeling poorly about your decision. 

It is alright to have an uncrossable line and make a quick decision.


----------



## ThePheonix

Wazza said:


> Following any recipe, plan A, plan TAM or whatever, without thought is weak.


I've got a recipe that's simply, pragmatic, easy to follow, is realistic and avoids the "here we go again". When they are no longer in love with you, are no longer attracted to you, have little or no respect for you, play you for a fool while giving the "goodies" to someone else, get rid of them.


----------



## OldWolf57

Welcome back BP. 

While sad about your marriage, am happy you found a resolution that fits who you are.

Good luck going forward.


----------



## Dyokemm

"get rid of them"

Personally, I think this is the best plan for all BS's.....life is simply too short to waste on traitorous cheats.

I respect every BS's choices though, if they choose to R I will offer advice on how I think they can best make that happen in a real way...not some false bullsh*t waste of time.

But honestly, NONE of them deserve it IMO.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Dyokemm said:


> "get rid of them"
> 
> Personally, I think this is the best plan for all BS's.....life is simply too short to waste on traitorous cheats.


Here's my thing, I have no clue what goes on in any person's marriage, there can be some issue I do not understand. This situation is intolerable and doesn't need 6 months to a year of chipping away at a hardened heart to fix.

She told him she was in love with OM.
She was dumped by OM and remained in love.
She doesn't want marriage counseling and remained in love.
She was told he was thinking of divorce and remained in love.
She was told what she needed to do and remained in love.
She contacted OM while in a state of unrequited love.
She has agreed to a divorce and remained in love.

Her head is still in the clouds. I'd be getting her to sign EVERYTHING right now. It hurts, but get it done now. Especially, while she is waiting for OM to "come around" and see heir love. Oh when it hits her and she comes down it is going to be ugly.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

She gave him nothing to work with for sure. Smart move to step off a dead end path BP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SecondTime'Round

I'm glad for you that you've come to a decision, BP. You sound like a great, level-headed man, and I have no doubt you will find happiness again in the form of a woman who loves you and appreciates you for all of your great qualities.


----------



## ThePheonix

Blossom, as a woman, you know she gave him nothing to work with because she's had nothing left to give him. Consciously or unconsciously, she was purposely driving him away. My epilogue is her fear of the unknown and lack of courage to face him with the fact she no longer wanted to be part of this marriage prevented her from just getting out. She played it to wear him down, make any conditions to reconcile intolerable therefore guiding him to make divorce a face saving "mutual" decision. Tell me if I wrong.


----------



## Wazza

ThePheonix said:


> Blossom, as a woman, you know she gave him nothing to work with because she's had nothing left to give him. Consciously or unconsciously, she was purposely driving him away. My epilogue is her fear of the unknown and lack of courage to face him with the fact she no longer wanted to be part of this marriage prevented her from just getting out. She played it to wear him down, make any conditions to reconcile intolerable therefore guiding him to make divorce a face saving "mutual" decision. Tell me if I wrong.


A huge generalization, with nowhere near enough information to say whether it applies in this case.


----------



## ThePheonix

Its my observation Wazzy is based on things she purportedly said to BP. I open the door on my thoughts back about halfway into this thread when I said, " _Her, (saying she ) " knows I am set on divorce and that no matter what I do my mind is made up" is womanese for, " I'm looking forward to getting you out of my life and I get to blame you for not wanting to work something out." _ I just expanded on it a little. 
Of course I may be wrong.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ThePheonix said:


> Blossom, as a woman, you know she gave him nothing to work with because she's had nothing left to give him. Consciously or unconsciously, she was purposely driving him away. My epilogue is her fear of the unknown and lack of courage to face him with the fact she no longer wanted to be part of this marriage prevented her from just getting out. She played it to wear him down, make any conditions to reconcile intolerable therefore guiding him to make divorce a face saving "mutual" decision. Tell me if I wrong.


I think she was so deep into her selfishness, her give a [email protected] was completely broken.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## azteca1986

ThePheonix said:


> Its my observation Wazzy is based on things she purportedly said to BP. I open the door on my thoughts back about halfway into this thread when I said, " _Her, (saying she ) " knows I am set on divorce and that no matter what I do my mind is made up" is womanese for, " I'm looking forward to getting you out of my life and *I get to blame you* for not wanting to work something out." _ I just expanded on it a little.
> Of course I may be wrong.


Classic blame shifting. We often hear spouses say this kind of thing because they are still in an affair mindset:

"You will never forgive me"
"You won't be able to get past this"
"You will always hold this over me"

They're still making decisions for their betrayed spouse. In this case she was so sure she and her AP had something special and he would leave his family for her. She hasn't given a single indication of an interest in R.

BP, how are you and your children holding up?


----------



## Wazza

ThePheonix said:


> Its my observation Wazzy is based on things she purportedly said to BP. I open the door on my thoughts back about halfway into this thread when I said, " _Her, (saying she ) " knows I am set on divorce and that no matter what I do my mind is made up" is womanese for, " I'm looking forward to getting you out of my life and I get to blame you for not wanting to work something out." _ I just expanded on it a little.
> Of course I may be wrong.


My observation is that she was besotted with the OM to the point where nothing else, including her marriage, could compete with the dopamine rush. Your analysis suggests a degree of calculation that I suspect was not there.

Beyond that, I get the sense you think all women are as you described. If that is what you think its something I disagree with very strongly.

This would be moot unless BP held hopes of reconciling at some future stage if / when her perspective changes.


----------



## ThePheonix

Wazza said:


> Beyond that, I get the sense you think all women are as you described.


To a degree you are correct. That is I believe the vast majority (not all) of woman will not get involved in an affair unless they have lost a material amount of romantic interest in their husband/mate. Additionally, I believe there are both men and women who will tend to behave in a manner that passively discourages "reconciliation" when they are not interested in reconciliation, hoping their spouse will just give up and walk.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ThePheonix said:


> To a degree you are correct. That is I believe the vast majority (not all) of woman will not get involved in an affair unless they have lost a material amount of romantic interest in their husband/mate. Additionally, I believe there are both men and women who will tend to behave in a manner that passively discourages "reconciliation" when they are not interested in reconciliation, hoping their spouse will just give up and walk.




Definitely not a stretch to draw that conclusion.


----------



## Iver

Banana Peel,

I believe you should strongly encourage your STBXW to get into IC. 

_...Every day I hear her say how she misses the OM and can't believe that he hasn't contacted her and that she still loves him._ 

Unless your wife is actually a sixteen year old girl in High School this is a level of delusion and gullibility that is alarming.

If she repeats this nonsense again I'd ask her if she's bought any bridges recently or sent any money to Nigerian Prince's? She's obviously easy to con. 

I do think you will want her to know that you think she's a gullible, foolish person who got conned. A dope in other words.

It will help frame her affair and dim some of the glitz she associates with it.

My other suggestion is be prepared for WWIII; you've indicated you see an amicable divorce and friendly co-parenting in your future. 

That's nice.

However once the reality of having to get up and go to work everyday hits her it could get ugly. 

Her judgment doesn't seem to be so hot either. Be very clear drug dealers, bikers, lowlifes on probation, etc. aren't to be anywhere near your children. Make this a part of your divorce settlement. 

(Yes, I see you shaking your head, thinking this would NEVER happen. Talk to a number of divorced men and see what they say.)


----------



## GusPolinski

How are you holding up, @Bananapeel?


----------



## Bananapeel

Thanks for asking Gus. I'm doing OK. Just working on getting the divorce paperwork finished up. I'll post additional details after everything is finalized. I ended up going to an IC and really should have gone sooner. It's helping a lot. The kids are doing great with the change. Divorce should be final in Sept.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Did you get everything you wanted out of the D negotiations? Are you going to expose her properly after this? Is POSOM still in the picture?


----------



## Bananapeel

The D and child custody negotiations were easy. She told me what she wanted. It was reasonable so I agreed to everything. I don't know if the OM is still in the picture. She says he isn't, but I can't verify either way. I have no desire to do a big exposure. She is free to live her life any way she wants, even if that means pursuing the OM. What good would come from exposing her at this point? She already has the shame and guilt to contend with and I can't see any benefit to her or me since we aren't staying together. We are amicable which is the best choice for minimizing impact to our kids, and it is also helping us both work through the transition. No point in exposing and complicating things. Our close friends and family know and that is enough for me. I'm not angry anymore and am settled with the situation as it stands.


----------



## Lostinthought61

so she is not pursuing Alimony?


----------



## Bananapeel

Time for the final update: 

Well I went to court today and it is finally over. It was very difficult to do and I felt like throwing up the whole time. I followed the advice on here and acted quickly which I’m sure saved me a bunch of money. She was too embarrassed and ashamed to ask for alimony so I just had to give her a lump sum payment for her share of the assets (she picked the amount and it was reasonable) and pay child support. We are doing split custody of the kids so I get to see them a bunch and that also cuts my child support payments in half. We are amicable for the most part and the kids are also doing OK and adapting. It’s good to put all of this behind me and now I can move forward with my life. 

For those of you wondering, she did ask about reconciling about a month ago and we discussed the issue in depth. She told me what she wanted and I told her what I wanted. Her terms were not acceptable to me and my terms were not “reasonable” to her, so we both mutually said no to each other. She had a couple crazy moments where she called me up to scream at me for being unwilling to take her back and work on things, but I was prepared for that to happen and didn’t let it get to me. I completely understand her being upset. She had an easy lifestyle where she was an upper middle class SAHM (kids in school, too!) and was married to a great guy, and lost it all to an affair with a guy that didn’t really want her. She’s now traded her nice house (which I kept) for an apartment, got a part-time job, lost her family dynamic that she valued, and heavily disappointed her friends and family. She’s currently living above her means and will probably blow through her settlement in a couple of years if she doesn’t lower her lifestyle standards, work more hours, or find someone else to support her. It’s a tough pill to swallow and I think it will be awhile until she gets past it. I will freely admit that I still love her and wish we could have been able to stay together, but I am a man with standards and some lines just can’t be crossed. 

The past week has been tough emotionally and I am still going to IC. The plan for the future is to take some time for myself to adjust to being divorced. Luckily I have lots of people that support me and I'll probably be leaning on them for some time.


----------



## farsidejunky

Congrats and sorry all rolled up into one, BP.

Just curious; what were the conditions that neither of you could live with from the other?


----------



## Bananapeel

Her idea of reconciliation was me putting the divorce on hold and going to marriage counseling to see if she could get over the OM and fall back in love with me and regain her attraction to me. IMO, she wanted rug sweeping. I wanted true commitment and remorse. I told her that I was only willing to reconcile under four specific conditions. She needed to be completely over the OM, which she wasn't. She had to accept full responsibility for her actions and the consequences, which she didn't since she still blamed her affair on problems in our marriage and was angry that I filed for divorce. She had to accept that I picked the timeline for reconciliation (I wouldn't put the divorce on hold at this time because I wanted her to want to reconcile because she wanted me, not because she was trying to avoid the consequences of her actions - i.e. getting divorced). She had to also understand that at any time during reconciliation we would be free to say it wasn't working and call it quits.


----------



## farsidejunky

Well done.

You saw clearly the difference between fear of losing you and fear of losing her lifestyle.


----------



## GusPolinski

Sorry, @Bananapeel. I was initially going to say "congrats", but it doesn't really seem to fit.

Still... very well played on your part. My hat's off to you, sir.

Just curious... which of your terms w/ respect to reconciliation did she find unpalatable? And which of her terms did you find unacceptable?

ETA: Nevermind on the last bit, as you've already answered.


----------



## JohnA

BP

Did you demand she end all contact with possum (ie i will not be plan B) or forget him? The first i can see happening. Ib fact that was my number one condition. The second not reality. 

What struck me about your wife's actions from your posts is how deep she was in the "I fing hate him, I will burn him in hell" part of the fog she was in. Since she refused to take full credit for the affair you never got a chance to truly discover and work on the issues you need to fix for your next relationship. Please open new thread to discuss what you think they were and how you working to anticipate their issues and how to help them defuse or avoid them. You have the potential to continue great value to this board. Please continue to post and advised.

Finally, true karma for your wife? Your new wife sending her a thank you for helping to shape you into the wonderful man she loves and rave about how great a father you are. That would be true karma, not loss of lifestyle, getting dumped repeatedly. But knowing you took the pain grew into a new and better man ad now some other ***** gets you.


----------



## JohnA

Sorry my iPad deletes things without me realizing it and I am poor at proof reading my one writing. The part about issues dropped kids.


----------



## Dyokemm

Bananapeel said:


> I will freely admit that I still love her and wish we could have been able to stay together, but I am a man with standards and some lines just can’t be crossed.


Man do I wish there were more people in the world with this viewpoint.

Too many people today run around with this attitude that not only do they deserve forgiveness for the sh*tty things they do....they deserve to have their victims give them a full pardon on consequences as well.

'Just get over it' seems to be the mantra of our society run amok.

BP,

So what specifically did she think was 'unreasonable' about the conditions you demanded for R?


----------



## Bananapeel

JohnA said:


> BP
> 
> Did you demand she end all contact with possum (ie i will not be plan B) or forget him? The first i can see happening. Ib fact that was my number one condition. The second not reality.
> 
> What struck me about your wife's actions from your posts is how deep she was in the "I fing hate him, I will burn him in hell" part of the fog she was in. Since she refused to take full credit for the affair you never got a chance to truly discover and work on the issues you need to fix for your next relationship. Please open new thread to discuss what you think they were and how you working to anticipate their issues and how to help them defuse or avoid them. You have the potential to continue great value to this board. Please continue to post and advised.
> 
> Finally, true karma for your wife? Your new wife sending her a thank you for helping to shape you into the wonderful man she loves and rave about how great a father you are. That would be true karma, not loss of lifestyle, getting dumped repeatedly. But knowing you took the pain grew into a new and better man ad now some other ***** gets you.


The OM initiated no contact with my XWW so she never got the chance to do it. She never did take full responsibility for her actions, which was her prerogative. I did my part and firmly established what I would accept if we were going to continue our relationship and she couldn't meet those standards. I'm not worried about karma. I hope my XWW finds what she is looking for and finds a way to be happy. She's not a bad person, she just made a choice that had consequences she wasn't prepared to accept.


----------



## Bananapeel

Dyokemm said:


> BP,
> 
> So what specifically did she think was 'unreasonable' about the conditions you demanded for R?


She said she couldn't get over the OM that quickly and she needed time to redevelop her feelings and attraction for me. She thought the only reasonable choice was to put the divorce on hold and go to marriage counseling for several months and try to work our issues out. She thought I owed that effort for the kids; and, me not bending to her plan of how to deal with things was unreasonable. The funny thing is we never had major issues in our marriage, it was actually a very good marriage up until the end.


----------



## badmemory

Bananapeel said:


> She said she couldn't get over the OM that quickly and she needed time to redevelop her feelings and attraction for me.


Cheating spouses don't have that luxury. At least they shouldn't.

If she wanted a chance to save her marriage, she should have been willing to "fake it till she made it". She certainly wouldn't have been the first to do so. Of course that's a lot easier to do when you're actually remorseful.


----------



## Dyokemm

BP,

Wow.....really sad.

Basically she blew up her life and failed to grasp a chance at R because she insisted on clinging emotionally to a fantasy that was so unreal even POSOM dropped it like it had never occurred or meant anything.

That's just delusional.

I'm glad you can finally move on and find happiness again.

Best of luck.


----------



## Clay2013

I personally do not think your requests were unreasonable. Its her problem she could not meet those. It sounds like you are right. She was more upset that she was loosing her comfortable life style than her husband. You really should be proud of how you handled things. There are far to many other people that are stuck in limbo for to long. 

Good for you. Show your kids you can move on and be a great dad for them. 
They will love seeing you happy. 

C


----------



## alte Dame

I'm sorry for this, but think you have probably saved yourself future heartache. I wouldn't be surprised if she grabbed the next available branch in order to reestablish her lifestyle. You were wise not to bite on her conditions for R, in my opinion.

Your mindset sounds very mature. Did you use the 180 to help you?


----------



## Bananapeel

I didn't use the 180 completely. I've been so focused on my kids and doing what was best to maintain an amicable relationship with their mom so that we could co-parent that I couldn't completely detach. Instead I set my standards and stuck to them, and still tried to be nice (but obviously not a pushover) to her in the process. From my understanding the 180 helps get your spouse back. Since my spouse didn't really want me back I focused on the next best thing, which is getting along in a mature and respectful way for the kids' benefit.

I did though start doing my own thing without her which included reconnecting with family and friends, and staying busy with hobbies and social activities. Plus, I am working out a lot and getting into really good shape. That's part of the 180.


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## GusPolinski

Bananapeel said:


> I didn't use the 180 completely. I've been so focused on my kids and doing what was best to maintain an amicable relationship with their mom so that we could co-parent that I couldn't completely detach. Instead I set my standards and stuck to them, and still tried to be nice (but obviously not a pushover) to her in the process. From my understanding the 180 helps get your spouse back. Since my spouse didn't really want me back I focused on the next best thing, which is getting along in a mature and respectful way for the kids' benefit.
> 
> I did though start doing my own thing without her which included reconnecting with family and friends, and staying busy with hobbies and social activities. Plus, I am working out a lot and getting into really good shape. That's part of the 180.


The goal of the 180 is to detach. Granted, this will sometimes prompt a WS to freak out and pull out all the stops to keep the BS from completely detaching, but that's not always the case.

Either way, well done.


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## meson

GusPolinski said:


> The goal of the 180 is to detach. Granted, this will sometimes prompt a WS to freak out and pull out all the stops to keep the BS from completely detaching, but that's not always the case.
> 
> Either way, well done.


The goal of the 180 is to improve oneself by focusing on oneself. Detaching is just one part of the 180 and depending on the circumstance is not necessary. Bananapeel did those things but kept from fully detaching. As a by product the 180 creates a vacuum in the relationship which the spouse may respond to. This vacuum can create a feeling of loss which the spouse will try to fix. If the one doing the 180 was smothering or clingy to the point of unattractiveness it fixes that as well.

I didn't know it was called the 180 when I did it but it really helped with problems in my marriage. I didn't detach either but rather improved myself and spent time elsewhere.


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## Wazza

BP, sorry that things went as they did, though you don't seem to have had much alternative. 

You say you still love her. If she wants to work at the relationship, she is, of course, still free to try, and if you wish, you can be open to any advances she make make. But I think the "attraction" thing is a fundamental problem. Maybe there are some people out there who never lust after anyone besides their spouses, but I suspect most of us have to control the odd attraction to someone else in the course of a long marriage. 

She is essentially saying "Let's take some time and see if I feel like staying married to you". Which immediately raises the question, what if you reconcile and then she feels like cheating again?

Very sad.


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## SecondTime'Round

You are a rock star, @Bananapeel .


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## GusPolinski

How goes it, @Bananapeel?


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## JohnA

As to you being reasonable she does remember she brought another man into your hone abs into your bed ?


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## Bananapeel

Hey Gus, I'm doing really well. MY XWW on the other hand is a hot mess and I'm trying to stay away to prevent from being dragged down with her. She is doing the Jekyll/Hyde thing where she is pretending to be a nice respectable woman with a good relationship with me around her friends and family, but then in private is drinking heavily, I think sleeping around, and pissing away her divorce settlement. As I originally said in one of my first posts, I'm pretty convinced she is going through a midlife crisis and I don't want any part of it. 

Her biggest recent screw up was she did some drunk driving and caused a major car accident. Luckily no one was killed and she was the only one injured. I let her stay on my couch for a couple weeks while she was recuperating, which I'm not sure was the best idea and I don't really know why I did it. Maybe for old times sake, maybe because she has no one else around that would, maybe for the kids, maybe because it felt like the right thing to do, I don't really know. I'm not going to go into specifics but during that time it opened my eyes to how far lost she is and how an amicable relationship with her isn't possible. She is totally self centered and lies to me constantly, and I'm slowly cutting ties and transitioning our relationship into one where our only interaction is about the kids. I didn't tell her this, I just started doing it and am firmly establishing boundaries. More boundaries will be established when I change our parenting plan once her DUI gets through the court system. 

I'm a long term planner and expect that within a year she'll be bankrupt. At that point I want our personal relationship/friendship to be so long gone that she doesn't come looking for a place to stay or money. Even if she does I won't give anything to her, but I'll be happy to take my kids. She said I was boring and she wanted excitement in her life, and I have a feeling she is going to get more than her share of it, but it won't be the good kind. I'm doing preemptive damage control because I don't want to be caught up in her mess. Instead I'll just provide the stability my kids need, as her charade of a life collapses around her. 

Personally, I'm adjusting well to the divorce. I have time for myself and am enjoying doing projects around the house, traveling a little, and pursuing hobbies. I've gone out a couple of times with girls for drinks but no one has sparked my interest yet. The divorce benefited me financially, which is an unexpected bonus. I've also strengthened my relationship with my family and friends, which was overdue. Mostly now I'm just doing my own thing and enjoying myself, while at the same time trying to minimize drama spillover from the ex.


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## Bananapeel

JohnA said:


> As to you being reasonable she does remember she brought another man into your hone abs into your bed ?


Funny thing is that I just don't care anymore. Whatever she did was on her and she can live with her consequences.


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## happyman64

SO BP how are your kids doing?


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## Bananapeel

happyman64 said:


> SO BP how are your kids doing?


The youngest one is doing great. In his life everything is good and happy. The older one has been doing OK. Definitely not focusing as well in school, challenges me when I tell him to do simple chores, and mopes around a lot. He's not that bad, but I can tell a change. I think he's just more in tune with the situation due to his age and it is obviously a harder transition for him. I feel badly for him and from what I've read it will be a year or two until everything normalizes in his world.


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## carmen ohio

Bananapeel said:


> Hey Gus, I'm doing really well. MY XWW on the other hand is a hot mess and I'm trying to stay away to prevent from being dragged down with her. She is doing the Jekyll/Hyde thing where she is pretending to be a nice respectable woman with a good relationship with me around her friends and family, but then in private is drinking heavily, I think sleeping around, and pissing away her divorce settlement. As I originally said in one of my first posts, I'm pretty convinced she is going through a midlife crisis and I don't want any part of it.
> 
> Her biggest recent screw up was she did some drunk driving and caused a major car accident. Luckily no one was killed and she was the only one injured. I let her stay on my couch for a couple weeks while she was recuperating, which I'm not sure was the best idea and I don't really know why I did it. Maybe for old times sake, maybe because she has no one else around that would, maybe for the kids, maybe because it felt like the right thing to do, I don't really know. I'm not going to go into specifics but during that time it opened my eyes to how far lost she is and how an amicable relationship with her isn't possible. She is totally self centered and lies to me constantly, and I'm slowly cutting ties and transitioning our relationship into one where our only interaction is about the kids. I didn't tell her this, I just started doing it and am firmly establishing boundaries. More boundaries will be established when I change our parenting plan once her DUI gets through the court system.
> 
> I'm a long term planner and expect that within a year she'll be bankrupt. At that point I want our personal relationship/friendship to be so long gone that she doesn't come looking for a place to stay or money. Even if she does I won't give anything to her, but I'll be happy to take my kids. She said I was boring and she wanted excitement in her life, and I have a feeling she is going to get more than her share of it, but it won't be the good kind. I'm doing preemptive damage control because I don't want to be caught up in her mess. Instead I'll just provide the stability my kids need, as her charade of a life collapses around her.
> 
> Personally, I'm adjusting well to the divorce. I have time for myself and am enjoying doing projects around the house, traveling a little, and pursuing hobbies. I've gone out a couple of times with girls for drinks but no one has sparked my interest yet. The divorce benefited me financially, which is an unexpected bonus. I've also strengthened my relationship with my family and friends, which was overdue. Mostly now I'm just doing my own thing and enjoying myself, while at the same time trying to minimize drama spillover from the ex.


You learn well, young grasshopper.


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## happyman64

Is the car your wife smacked up under her name and her insurance only?


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## Bananapeel

happyman64 said:


> Is the car your wife smacked up under her name and her insurance only?


Yup. Her problem, not mine.


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## Wazza

Bananapeel said:


> The youngest one is doing great. In his life everything is good and happy. The older one has been doing OK. Definitely not focusing as well in school, challenges me when I tell him to do simple chores, and mopes around a lot. He's not that bad, but I can tell a change. I think he's just more in tune with the situation due to his age and it is obviously a harder transition for him. I feel badly for him and from what I've read it will be a year or two until everything normalizes in his world.


How low do you think your ex will sink, and what will that do to the kids?

I don't have any answers, just see it as a potential problem and wondering what your plans are to deal with it.


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## honcho

Bananapeel said:


> Hey Gus, I'm doing really well. MY XWW on the other hand is a hot mess and I'm trying to stay away to prevent from being dragged down with her. She is doing the Jekyll/Hyde thing where she is pretending to be a nice respectable woman with a good relationship with me around her friends and family, but then in private is drinking heavily, I think sleeping around, and pissing away her divorce settlement. As I originally said in one of my first posts, I'm pretty convinced she is going through a midlife crisis and I don't want any part of it.
> 
> Her biggest recent screw up was she did some drunk driving and caused a major car accident. Luckily no one was killed and she was the only one injured. I let her stay on my couch for a couple weeks while she was recuperating, which I'm not sure was the best idea and I don't really know why I did it. Maybe for old times sake, maybe because she has no one else around that would, maybe for the kids, maybe because it felt like the right thing to do, I don't really know. I'm not going to go into specifics but during that time it opened my eyes to how far lost she is and how an amicable relationship with her isn't possible. She is totally self centered and lies to me constantly, and I'm slowly cutting ties and transitioning our relationship into one where our only interaction is about the kids. I didn't tell her this, I just started doing it and am firmly establishing boundaries. More boundaries will be established when I change our parenting plan once her DUI gets through the court system.
> 
> I'm a long term planner and expect that within a year she'll be bankrupt. At that point I want our personal relationship/friendship to be so long gone that she doesn't come looking for a place to stay or money. Even if she does I won't give anything to her, but I'll be happy to take my kids. She said I was boring and she wanted excitement in her life, and I have a feeling she is going to get more than her share of it, but it won't be the good kind. I'm doing preemptive damage control because I don't want to be caught up in her mess. Instead I'll just provide the stability my kids need, as her charade of a life collapses around her.
> 
> Personally, I'm adjusting well to the divorce. I have time for myself and am enjoying doing projects around the house, traveling a little, and pursuing hobbies. I've gone out a couple of times with girls for drinks but no one has sparked my interest yet. The divorce benefited me financially, which is an unexpected bonus. I've also strengthened my relationship with my family and friends, which was overdue. Mostly now I'm just doing my own thing and enjoying myself, while at the same time trying to minimize drama spillover from the ex.


If she follows the usual downward spiral a year from now you won't even recognize any part of her. Keep gaining distance from her. She will get her fill of excitement and realize the price she paid to obtain it. Boring aka stable usually looks real good then.


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## Bananapeel

Wazza said:


> How low do you think your ex will sink, and what will that do to the kids?
> 
> I don't have any answers, just see it as a potential problem and wondering what your plans are to deal with it.


I wish I could predict that. As long as she isn't doing anything to harm the kids, I'm staying as far away as possible. If that changes then I go to court to pull full custody. 



honcho said:


> If she follows the usual downward spiral a year from now you won't even recognize any part of her. Keep gaining distance from her. She will get her fill of excitement and realize the price she paid to obtain it. Boring aka stable usually looks real good then.


I anticipate that as a very likely possibility. I really hope she can find stable again, she just won't find it in a relationship with me.


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## Dyokemm

Bananapeel said:


> I wish I could predict that. As long as she isn't doing anything to harm the kids, I'm staying as far away as possible. If that changes then I go to court to pull full custody.
> 
> 
> 
> I anticipate that as a very likely possibility. I really hope she can find stable again, *she just won't find it in a relationship with me*.


Perfect.


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## TDSC60

Bananapeel said:


> The youngest one is doing great. In his life everything is good and happy. The older one has been doing OK. Definitely not focusing as well in school, challenges me when I tell him to do simple chores, and mopes around a lot. He's not that bad, but I can tell a change. I think he's just more in tune with the situation due to his age and it is obviously a harder transition for him. I feel badly for him and from what I've read it will be a year or two until everything normalizes in his world.


Don't be so quick to blame the problems with your oldest on the divorce. Depending on his age, it could easily be something at school or peer pressure of one kind or another.

All I am saying is that what you described is almost typical behavior of a 10-15 yr old boy. Best be alert for other reasons for his behavior also.

Sure the divorce will have an affect on him. But don't be blind to other causes.


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## Bananapeel

Today is the one-year anniversary of my divorce, so I thought I’d give an update of how things have gone. I’ve had quite a bit of time to self-reflect and really look hard at what happened in my marriage, how it failed, and think what the future may be like. Hopefully, I have learned enough that I can prevent similar problems from happening in the future. 

Looking back at our time married I was a great husband and father, so was caught off guard during this mess. I had always made my family my priority, respected and supported my wife in her decisions, communicated directly whenever there was a problem developing so that things didn’t spiral out of control, was professionally successful and kept physically attractive, and took charge in the direction my family was headed and made good decisions for our future. The only decision I regret during my marriage is that when my XWW decided she wanted to be a stay at home mom and not work (even after our kids were in school) I agreed but under the condition that we live frugally for a few years until my next big raise, which she was unable to do and I should have recognized that early. She ended up stealing money from her retirement plan to supplement her play money (all done behind my back) and I think that built up her resentment towards me because she knew I wouldn’t approve of her making such a poor financial decision. I think that because of this and me having the dominant personality in our relationship that she felt that she didn’t have enough control of her life. She also had some unresolved depression from the death of her parents several years ago and used alcohol as a coping mechanism. I think that when the opportunity to cheat arose all the dominoes were in place; she felt like she was able to be fully in control of her life by making decisions that only benefited her, and the thrill she got from cheating blocked her depression from her parent’s deaths. 

I know that some spouses may rewrite history after the trauma of an affair and say they were a great spouse during the marriage, but in my case I truly feel that way. One of the more telling ways I’ve come to believe that is that during the divorce process not a single one of her family, her friends, our family, our friends, my family, or my friends stood up for her and said I should give her a second chance. To reiterate…not a single person stood up for her. I didn’t make our friends choose sides because I knew my XWW needed their support far more than I did and our joint friends told me afterwards that they appreciated not being forced to choose because none of them would have chosen her. Again, very telling. 

Emotionally it was very hard to let go. We had all of those years together without major problems and always had a great connection. Since we had the relationship type where I was the strong one and was there to support her during her hard times it was very difficult for me to see her hurting after she was caught and not be able to step in and try to fix things. I absolutely wanted to, but the moment she told me that she’d rather be with the OM even if it broke up our family I knew it was over. That was also the instant I recognized that she didn’t meet my standards for a wife despite how much I cared for her. 

The first year single was full of changes. Initially I tried to be friends with my XWW and found pretty quickly that wasn’t an option. She continued to lie to me regularly, snoop through my house when I wasn’t home, made some poor parenting choices, and caused a major drunk driving car accident, just to name a few of her problems. Over the next few months I became angry with her for all of these things and couldn’t stand anything to do with her. I think that was still just part of the grieving process and it passed after a few months. After that I was finally ready to just maintain a civil relationship with her as needed to properly raise our kids, and that’s how things are going today. I really don’t care how she is doing since it isn’t my business, but I hope she gets her life figured out. Our mutual friends now describe her as having a dark cloud over her head and acting perpetually unhappy, which is unfortunate, but she’s solely responsible for it. 

Probably the most beneficial life change for me is that we had a major role reversal. Back when we were married I was busy developing my career and leaned heavily on her for keeping the family running. Since the divorce this has completely flip flopped. She is now working as a secretary so she doesn’t get the freedom/flexibility that I have in my schedule (I’m a salaried professional and get to pick my hours to fit my parenting obligations). Since I’ve had to fill this parenting void I’ve become a much better father and am far more interactive with the kids; it’s to the point where the kids have noticed and routinely tell me how much they appreciate it and how good of a dad I am. So that’s a major win. I’ve also developed far stronger relationship with my family and friends that supported me during the divorce process, so that’s another win. 

It took about six to eight months but my kids have adjusted quite well to their new living situation, which was a huge relief. I only have custody of them half time, which is my biggest regret. It’s not as bad as I thought because I’m somewhat of an introvert (actually an extroverted introvert) so having a quiet house for part of the week is manageable. Since I don’t like just sitting around I’ve been using my time to pursue hobbies, exercise a lot, and engage in a variety of religious/philanthropic/professional activities. 

I took a break for about six to eight months after the divorce before I started thinking about future relationships. I have been dating casually, which was really easy to get back into. I’m fortunate that I've never really had trouble finding women that are interested in dating me. I have not committed to anyone yet, and don’t know if that is something I will want again. I guess I’m just not sure if a serious romantic relationship is worth the risk, especially since I’m at the age that I’m not looking to have any more kids. I am also keeping my kids as my top priority and I’m not willing to divert time away from them for a relationship. Maybe that will change in the future, but for the meantime I communicate this upfront so there are no surprises. 

I’m also recovering quickly financially. After the increased taxes and child support payments I take home less money than before but through budgeting and lifestyle changes, I’ve been able to actually come out pretty far ahead. In about another six months I’ll be better off than I was before the divorce. I am now planning on other ways to enjoy the financial benefits and my current ideas include going on trips overseas, buying a sports car, home improvements, etc. I guess I’ll just have to decide what’s most important to me and do that. 

All in all, despite occasionally missing the good times we shared I’m convinced I made the right choice. I was a good husband and when she became someone that wasn’t wife material anymore I ended the marriage decisively and with my self-respect intact. In the process I became a better father and have developed stronger relationships with the people that are close to me. Since I can’t go back in time and prevent the collapse of my marriage, I’ll just be thankful for how everything else has turned out. A big thanks goes out to all the people here that supported me and gave me good advice. 

Anyway, that’s the somewhat long winded one-year synopsis and my last contribution to conclude this thread.


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## 225985

I am happy things are working out for you. Forgive a dumb question, but if you have 50% custody, why do you have to pay child support? Are not the expenses shared equally?

BTW, what makes the women attracted to you? Looks? Youth? Confidence? Just curious in case I find myself in similar circumstance re: dating again.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Thanks for the update and continue to take it slow in the relationship department. It'll all work itself out. 
Continued happiness sir.


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## Bananapeel

blueinbr said:


> I am happy things are working out for you. Forgive a dumb question, but if you have 50% custody, why do you have to pay child support? Are not the expenses shared equally?
> 
> BTW, what makes the women attracted to you? Looks? Youth? Confidence? Just curious in case I find myself in similar circumstance re: dating again.


I have to pay child support because I make so much more money than she does. There's a six figure difference between what we make. I also have to pay the kid's medical insurance and a larger percentage of the other kid expenses. It's just the way the court does things so the kids can have a similar lifestyle with both parents. 

I think women are attracted to me primarily because I'm successful, smart, and good looking/in-shape. I'm not a supermodel, but above average for my age bracket. I also don't fear rejection and I don't let women walk all over me so I think I'm a bit of a challenge for them. But that's all speculation.


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## Tatsuhiko

You handled this with maturity and grace. Too bad the same cannot be said for your ex. I suppose your biggest challenge now is to make sure that her ultimate self-destruction doesn't spill over into the kids' lives. Also, watch out for her attempts to reel you back in when everything falls apart in her life.


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