# It seems to me there is a difference between loyalty and faithfulness



## WillK (May 16, 2012)

My story has aparently confused a lot of people here, so that has helped me try to think about what we're going through in a way that I can explain that is not confusing.. I think it's forced me to go through an exercise that has been helpful to me in understanding my own situation.

So what I thought of to concisely explain the situation is this: My wife was unfaithful to me for a brief period of time, years ago before we had children. At that time, we sought therapy and reconciled. Since then, she has never been unfaithful again. Ideally, I think unfaithfulness should be prevented by loyalty, but I think my wife's not being unfaithful has been in spite of not being loyal - she's perhaps been loyal to her children and not wanted to inflict on them the harm that would result from unfaithfulness towards me, but she has not been loyal to me, and that is the problem that we both need to fix.

Maybe I'm attaching my own meaning to the words to make a distinction, when I look the words up they do sound very nearly the same, but I'll cherry pick definitions that seem to make the kind of distinction I am thinking of:

Faithful - true to the facts etc.
Loyal - unswerving in allegiance

Maybe for me, I say that I think my wife as faithful because she is not engaging in acts or any kind of emotional attachments. I say she's not loyal to me because it is not out of love for me that she does so.

I guess I thought if I tried explaining it that way it would convey my feelings of where things stand in a way that would be more easily understood. I'm not sure I really accomplished that goal.

This is an evolving situation though. It's been evolving for the past almost 2 months (before which it was a deteriorating situation for years, but that was at a slow pace). It's not like I joined here Tuesday and just 3 days letter there's a sudden and complete turn around.

With that said, I think I am getting really good signs. My wife has been agreeing to start therapy, but I have been able to tell that it has been more out of a sense of doing the right thing because I asked than because she wanted to. This morning, my wife saw that I bought "5 Love Languages" and didn't attack me for it. I was able to discuss it with her. See, a week ago she would have been closed off to discuss it and probably would've objected, and told me she agreed to go to therapy and I should stop pushing. Today I got a real sense that she wants to fix the relationship - and I asked and she said that yes, she does want to fix it now.

And I think it helps - the advice I've gotten here has been part of that help - that I've not just been able to say that I want to change, I've been able to start to change and explain to my wife how I understand how to change.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Will,

This is at least the second (if not third) post you've started in recent days. Each post is sinificantly different in how the facts are represented and seem to be trying to show that things between you and your wife are OK now that you and she have had an awakening.

While this is very possible (but highly unlikely) I think the two of you may have recognized that there are issues but I also think (from the outside looking in) that the two of you are trying to rug sweep these issues. 

It al;so seems that this (rug sweeping) may be what you did years ago during her previous infidelity. Also, your failure (and hers too?) to not acknowledge the fact that her recent relationship with the neighbor was at the least, a minor Emotional Affair is also troubling. It doesn't matter that she seldomly responded to his texts or advances. What matters is that she didn't stop him cold in his tracks and tell him NO and inform you of what was going on.

You have been given some information from her that is solid and verifiable and more that isn't. You've also been told things by the OM that you've choosen to believe. 

You're wife unfortunately has a history of crossing boundaries in your marriage and yet this isn't germaine for you. It should be. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it

I think it would be more helpful if you mainted one post instead of three so that responders can view what you've posted previously and try to point out either your inconsistencies or re-writing of your history.

If you truly want help from this site, you need to be forthright when asked a question and at least be willing to consider the answers. Often, by asking and answering, people here have been lead on a journey of self-discovery that have helped them view and deal with their issues in a constructive manner,

You seem to want to own your part of your marital issues and that's great but you don't seem to want to admit that your wife also owns at least half of these issues and ALL of the responsibilities for her past infidilities. This is a bit noble but does not serve to make the issues any better and in fact, will probably result in another relapse on her part at a later date.

I think there's been a fall off in responses to your post from some of the smartest folks here because they also sense (like I did) that you've decided to go down a path that many here have already done and instead of heeding the warnings of the walking wounded, you've choosen to close your eyes and whistle a comforting tune as you continue on your way. I too swore off responding and was critical of your previous posts but I still feel an extreme amount of pain in your writings and could not sit by without one more try to reach you. I hope your counselor is more successful then I have been or the other folks here on TAM

During your sessions with your counselor next week, please try to be as completely honest as you can. that is the only way you and your wife will ever have a chance to heal your marriage


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Toffer said:


> Will,
> 
> This is at least the second (if not third) post you've started in recent days. Each post is sinificantly different in how the facts are represented and seem to be trying to show that things between you and your wife are OK now that you and she have had an awakening.


Don't misunderstand - maybe part of the issue is this, I'm not here to lay out my complete situation, I come here - at this point, at least, who knows if this will change - because I have very narrowly focussed questions I need help with. I have been cautious because I have no intention of posting the entirety of the situation while I at the risk of facing a divorce where I could potentially be in court, and anything I have said here can be used against me.

The point being - I chop up my story because I'm taking an approach that is focussed rather than holistic.



> While this is very possible (but highly unlikely) I think the two of you may have recognized that there are issues but I also think (from the outside looking in) that the two of you are trying to rug sweep these issues.


I think that perception is understandable, but rather it is a product of my choice to approach this forum with focussed question-asking, rather than laying everything out in the open.

The fact that I posted a question about EA when there was one but it was already ended - that reflects the fact I am being cautious, and that is a product of the issues of the past and my awareness that they are not fully resolved.

The first analogy that comes to mind is an imperfect one. But here it is anyway. If she has a tendency to seek intimacy with someone other than me based on what happenned 8 years ago, that tendency is probably still there - the way that an exploding boiler happens when the steam pressure exceeds the capacity of the vessel containing the steam. The prevention in place right now that she wouldn't do that to the kids, it's like a strap around the boiler keeping it from exploding because the vessel's strength is increased. The pressure inside the boiler still exists, and still needs to be dealt with. Similarly, the things that cause my wife to seek intimacy elsewhere still need to be dealt with.

The changes I'm making are part of that. Of course, not all of it - I realize that and the fact I'm not discussing it here doesn't mean I'm not dealing with it.



> It al;so seems that this (rug sweeping) may be what you did years ago during her previous infidelity.


Agreed



> Also, your failure (and hers too?) to not acknowledge the fact that her recent relationship with the neighbor was at the least, a minor Emotional Affair is also troubling.


I acknowledged that it was a minor emotional affair. In discussions with my wife, she didn't agree with the label, but acknowledged that there was an emotional connection which was one which she should have had with me instead of him. So to my mind, she accepted that she met the terms of what would define it as an emotional affair, she just didn't accept the label. I call that close enough for what is needed, namely it's enough to serve as the starting point for dealing with the issues.



> It doesn't matter that she seldomly responded to his texts or advances.


Disagree, but I think that's a matter of the point being missed. I was trying to lay out a chronology that shows that there was a change. She was responding more to texts in the past and now it is stopped, with an exception of a legitimate school related message.

And as I said, I think the immediate issue of this particular guy is dealt with. The underlying problems still exist, are acknowledged and we will be working on them.



> What matters is that she didn't stop him cold in his tracks and tell him NO and inform you of what was going on.


Agreed. At this point, the state is that she did tell him to stop, it can be improved upon, she'll answer when asked but she's not proactively informing.



> You have been given some information from her that is solid and verifiable and more that isn't. You've also been told things by the OM that you've choosen to believe.


Actually, I never have spoken with OM. I've only mentioned impressions based on observations. Do you have an opinion that I should get more info by talking with him? I don't sense any hostility and I don't have any objection to it myself, I'm just not sure it's a thing that needs to be done.



> You're wife unfortunately has a history of crossing boundaries in your marriage and yet this isn't germaine for you. It should be. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it


Agreed, and hence it will be handled in the therapy setting.



> I think it would be more helpful if you mainted one post instead of three so that responders can view what you've posted previously and try to point out either your inconsistencies or re-writing of your history.
> 
> If you truly want help from this site, you need to be forthright when asked a question and at least be willing to consider the answers. Often, by asking and answering, people here have been lead on a journey of self-discovery that have helped them view and deal with their issues in a constructive manner,


As I mentioned - I have felt a need to be guarded in how much I share here. The relationship really feels like it's starting to heal, and as that progresses I may also relax my guard here.



> You seem to want to own your part of your marital issues and that's great but you don't seem to want to admit that your wife also owns at least half of these issues and ALL of the responsibilities for her past infidilities. This is a bit noble but does not serve to make the issues any better and in fact, will probably result in another relapse on her part at a later date.


Ah. Now this is an opportunity to share a bit of learning just from the few sentences I have had time to read from 5 languages of love. Her primary language of love is affirmations. Any time I've tried to talk to her about what she's doing wrong, I've been speaking negatively to her in her language of love. I've been aware of that but I haven't understood that.

As such, I've becomme accustomed to dealing with my issues and being aware I can't force her to deal with her issues.

I *am* definitely aware I need her to improve upon her own areas that need to be fixed, and my approach thus far is that I only expect to be able to do that after I'm the better man she needs me to be so that she isn't closed off.

This will be an area I need to sort through. So consider your point acknowledged.



> I think there's been a fall off in responses to your post from some of the smartest folks here because they also sense (like I did) that you've decided to go down a path that many here have already done and instead of heeding the warnings of the walking wounded, you've choosen to close your eyes and whistle a comforting tune as you continue on your way. I too swore off responding and was critical of your previous posts but I still feel an extreme amount of pain in your writings and could not sit by without one more try to reach you. I hope your counselor is more successful then I have been or the other folks here on TAM


I assumed it was because I get wordy, this isn't the first forum I've participated on - it's in my nature to get wordy in written word. And complex/confusing. I haven't felt lacking in feedback.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. If it seems I'm disregarding responses, then it's not because I am, it's just the nature of how my responses focus on where I want to hear more or where I don't understand. Maybe I read something I like and take it in but don't express it here.

If that's the case, it's probably also a mirroring of an issue I need to work through and which 5 love languages might help with.



> During your sessions with your counselor next week, please try to be as completely honest as you can. that is the only way you and your wife will ever have a chance to heal your marriage


I don't think my problem is being open and honest so much as being concise without leaving key info out.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

It sounds to me like you're splitting hairs. 

I'm not sure I really follow what you're saying, but the overall sense I get from this post (I haven't read your other posts) is that you're trying to convince yourself of something. It's as if you're hoping that if you tell yourself something long enough you'll eventually start to believe it. And that thing you're trying to convince yourself seems to be that she was never unfaithful to you. 

There's really no need to convince anyone here of anything. We're a bunch of strangers on the internet. I wouldn't know who you are if I walked by you on the street. What does it matter what we think. In the end, it's your life, your marriage, your wife and you. You can call her loyal or faithful or whatever other word you choose. It's not really the word that matters. In the end you need to ask yourself do you feel safe in this marriage? Do you feel like she is a good long-term partner for you?


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Since it was suggested I should be less inclined to start new threads instead of continuing in a particular thread...



Coffee Amore said:


> In the end you need to ask yourself do you feel safe in this marriage? Do you feel like she is a good long-term partner for you?


To answer this, let me share an e-mail I sent to my wife on Weds. of this week expressing some of why I want to be married to her:

#1 reason - you are the mother of our children. And a very good mother. I would want to be married to you for this reason if there was no other reason at all. That is because it is a very strong personal value that both parents have a responsibility to the children they create.

The other reasons are not being listed in any particular order.

The next reason I will list is sex. I'm horny for you. The height of this reason as a priority at this time is for that reason. Other times, I value other reasons. Without sex I'd love you for being the good mother that you are. So with those disclaimers out of the way, let me say that even the worst sex we've had is better sex than anything I had with anyone else before I met you. Enough said, if you want more praise just ask.

You're a good person. You do caring things. I wish I could be the recipient more, but maybe that's my fault for the way I've acted.

You're strong in character. Even if you have not freed yourself to realize your full potential yet.

You're a redhead. That makes you like a Ferrari among women. I'm a lucky man.

You're smart. You had me figured out years before it sunk in, and I wish I could 've listenned better sooner.

You have good taste. Our children will be much better dressed Monday-Thursday than they will be on Friday. We're better as a team, I can build the structure and the function of this house, but it will take your decisions to finish it without looking like my parents house.

You're beautiful. I love to see you smile. I love your freckles. I love your figure. I love your legs and your smooth soft skin. I love your soft sweet tummy. I love holding and rubbing your feet.

I enjoy holding you close and having you fall asleep laying against me. And I miss it very much.

There's much more. Having thought about why I want to be married to you, I remember that there is a lot I put up with, but obviously I find these reasons worth it. Whatever it is that I have to put up with, I forget what it is.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

One other point - I'm trying to wrap out so I can get to he bookstore on my lunch break.

I mentioned my wife started expressing this morning that she's starting to want to fix the relationship. Let me expand on that. This morning, aside from saying she wants to fix the relationship, she asked me that if we were fixing the relationship, would I move into the apartment with her. No prompting from me. I haven't brought up me moving into the apartment since weeks ago, before I started my turn-around. I take it as a very encouraging sign.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

OK, I at least tried!


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