# Men and Commitment



## b_lennon (Oct 7, 2010)

General question here: what is the deal with men and commitment? And I don't necessarily mean marriage. It can be just as simple as getting to a point in a relationship where you either have to be serious about it, or it's time to say good-bye.

I recently discovered that my ex (as of 2 days) has a fear of commitment. I definitely didn't see that coming. And he couldn't really explain it any further. 

So, I want to know. What is it with men??? What causes you guys (or girls too, I guess) to freak out? Does career come into it at all? What I mean is, if your career is not going well or you're having financial troubles is that a definite deciding factor in whether you become serious with somebody?

Any comments are welcome.


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## 4sure (Aug 8, 2010)

If you do not feel the person you are with is "the one" then you won't commit.


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## Big Bear (Feb 11, 2010)

Men don't have a fear of commitment. It has nothing to do with work, familiy, past experience, or anything else. When we find someone we want to commit to we do. It's actually that simple. When someone says "I have a fear of commitment" just add the words "to you" and you'll save yourself a lot of heartache.


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

Big Bear said:


> Men don't have a fear of commitment. It has nothing to do with work, familiy, past experience, or anything else. When we find someone we want to commit to we do. It's actually that simple. *When someone says "I have a fear of commitment" just add the words "to you" and you'll save yourself a lot of heartache*.


That's beautiful.
To the point and maybe harsh, but it can not be said more thoroughly or simply.


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## Frost (Aug 2, 2010)

People are shaped by experience, heredity, environment and many other things in life. Some development issues with commitment, some don't. The same events influence what we are attracted to and often people are attracted to a certain type of person even if that person is not ideal. 

Is it possible that you are generalizing based on your experience? Obviously not all men or women have commitment issues, but maybe the type of guy you're drawn to is the type of guy who has commitment problems.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Oh, I love generalizations. I think the OP is correct about her generalization of men and I say this as a man.

To answer this very deep and intrigueing question, I refer you to the episode of Seinfeld when George figures out why all of the sudden, all of these women are attracted to him. It was right after Susan's death from licking envelopes and Jerry figures out it's because he got engaged. To a woman, that's like "going all the way." So George uses this to his advantage to try to score women and flaunts he made a commitment.

What this episode humorously pointed out is that it's not that men don't commit, just like women don't "not want to have sex", it's just that women want us to be promiscuous with commitment (to them).

This is why women will be attracted to short, fat bald men who gets engaged and men will be attracted to a physically unattractive woman who acts like she's in heat.

It's purely biological.

Next question, please


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

b_lennon said:


> General question here: what is the deal with men and commitment? And I don't necessarily mean marriage. It can be just as simple as getting to a point in a relationship where you either have to be serious about it, or it's time to say good-bye.
> 
> I recently discovered that my ex (as of 2 days) has a fear of commitment. I definitely didn't see that coming. And he couldn't really explain it any further.
> 
> ...


A man's commitment goes when he has no "hope" of success.

Bob


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Side effects of commitment may include:
dizziness, nausea, vomiting, increased expectations, offspring, decreased sexual frequency, testicular atrophy, inability to make decisions without consultation, loss of income, heart condition, anxiety and/or depression and in rare cases, death.

Consult your doctor to determine if commitment is right for you.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

I actually can now speak personally to my newly developed fear of comittment, now that I spoke in a generalization.

Coming off a painful divorce and being a former commitment kind of guy, I fear commitment for the following reasons:

1. Emotional Diversification.

I am not sure if it's true of men only, or some people, but I am not sure I ever (at this point I feel this way) want to get wrapped up all into one person the rest of my life. At now 42 years old, I have 3 wonderful kids and the odds favor me to see multiple women for some friendship +/- some sex.

Like a portfolio, if you expose yourself to one woman, you run the riks of losing everything and then one day you find yourself sitting alone in an apartment with a totally shot self-esteem and self-worth.

If you have 4-7 women/friends (again, some platonic, some more), it's like a portfolio. . .no "one investment" gives you all of the return, but you also don't run the risk of losing everything emotionally.

2. The Actual Meaning of Committment.

A commitment is serious. Women throw that word around like it's some casual roll in the hay or going out for a beer on a Sat. night.

I think about this - why would I want to take on another woman? Even my father (who is a married man all of his adult life - going on 43 years) notes, every time I mention women, "Gawd! That's all you need right now!"

It's kind of like taking on a child, at least emotionally. A puppy would be easier at this point.

I can hear the women of the forum cringing when I say that. And let me say I totally get it the other way too!!!

Many women who are 60+ don't want to take on a "man" at that point in their lives.

Why?

So they can cook, clean and do laundry for another person like a child? I totally get it!!!!

I don't know. . .I can't perhaps shake the notion that if I take on the committment of a woman, I am responsible for her well being in every department - her health, her happiness, her comfort, etc.

I don't know what to say, ladies. . .it's just too much nowadays, you know?

I know I am in a different spot right now in my life but if you want the white house and picket fence. . .I say, "Go for it." I'll be your biggest cheering section but I think I'll just be a spectator for now and sit a few years out, at least.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Side effects of commitment may include:
> dizziness, nausea, vomiting, increased expectations, offspring, decreased sexual frequency, testicular atrophy, inability to make decisions without consultation, loss of income, heart condition, anxiety and/or depression and in rare cases, death.
> 
> Consult your doctor to determine if commitment is right for you.


I don't usually do this stuff but I see an exception to that particualr rule of mine :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Ha!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Why do men commit?

The original mortgage takes 25 years to pay off. The house that was 100,000 turns out to be 250,000 with interest. We can’t pay that off without commitment to do so. The kids need looking after for 18 years at the very least. Men who are creating, building and earning need stability in their life. We look to our woman for that stability so we commit to them. Men are long term planners, we have an inkling of what lies ahead, particularly the challenges and problems to overcome.

Men think long term, very very long term. Men are forward looking, planning to make things happen. At times we take risks with the inner confidence we can make them pay off, but we’re not certain. We make an investment of love, forgiveness, patience, tolerance, understanding and compassion in the woman we have chosen for our life’s partner. We know things are going to go wrong and we know we will get things wrong. We believe in our ability to correct the things that went wrong and the things we did wrong. We truly believe those things and we commit.

We commit to a dream, an ideal, that first came in our mind the moment we saw and feel in love with our woman.

Bob


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

AFEH said:


> Why do men commit?
> 
> Men who are creating, building and earning need stability in their life. We look to our woman for that stability so we commit to them. Men are long term planners, we have an inkling of what lies ahead, particularly the challenges and problems to overcome.
> 
> ...


This is the answer that should be in the dictionary, and put on T-shirts. My heart rate went up in a good way just reading it. 

This is absolutely and utterly what I believed with 100% of my being when I knew I wanted to marry her. I had no doubts or fear, whatsoever.

Life teaches us lessons. Usually the ones we learn the most from are also the most unpleasant. Much like ScannerGuard, my perception of commitment has changed. I don't fear it. I simply find it difficult to imagine making it again, as I once did.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Deejo said:


> This is the answer that should be in the dictionary, and put on T-shirts. My heart rate went up in a good way just reading it.
> 
> This is absolutely and utterly what I believed with 100% of my being when I knew I wanted to marry her. I had no doubts or fear, whatsoever.
> 
> Life teaches us lessons. Usually the ones we learn the most from are also the most unpleasant. Much like ScannerGuard, my perception of commitment has changed. I don't fear it. I simply find it difficult to imagine making it again, as I once did.


You and me both Deejo with ScannerGuard.

I can't see me ever commiting like that again. I hope I do, I hope I full in love again. But I have fear of doing so. I hope that fear will leave me in time.

Bob


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Question to the sage men that are AFEH, Scanner and Deejo as I do appreciate and admire your input and all that you have been through.
Do you think that a man makes more of a commitment than a woman? What I mean is: Don't women make the same commitment in that they invest their love, patience, understanding and compassion? 
In this day and age it isn't so much one person paying the mortgage and all the bills. It is more of a collective partnership, right? I think both partners have so much to loose if the marriage goes south. Am I wrong? I don't think long term planning is so much of a male thing but now more of a marriage thing. Goals, dreams, etc. I don't know, maybe I have a different outlook. What am I missing here?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Sorry, I have another question for the three of you. It is a painful one to ask but here it goes: Does a man marry out of obligation?
My (now) husband and I got pregnant when we were both in college, 21 and scared out of our minds. He proposed a few days after I told him I was pregnant. I accepted the ring but told him that if he wants to marry me after our son was born, then I would be happy with that. I didn't want anybody to think it was because of our son or a "shotgun" wedding. He didn't like it but we delayed our wedding until our son was 10 months old.
We have been married for 17 years now and I get this feeling that it was out of obligation. Granted we are having communication issues throughout our marriage but my feeling of "obligation" is heightened because of our current marital problems. 
So, does a man marry out of obligation? It's sad, I wish more than anything I would have had a proposal that I knew came from the heart and not this nagging sense that somebody was bending his ear. Any thoughts?


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## b_lennon (Oct 7, 2010)

Thanks for the replies everyone (both the funny ones and the more serious ones). 

This is essentially what I thought, but it's always nice to hear it from others. I guess in the end he just didn't love me the way I loved him. I'd rather know now and try to move on with my life than years down the road.

And to answer Brennan's question, I kind of agree. Whoever I end up marrying (if I marry) should expect me to put in the same work as he does. I work full-time, I will help pay the bills and take care of things. Or do men know this, but still feel like they have the ultimate responsibility for the family's well-being??


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Brennan said:


> Question to the sage men that are AFEH, Scanner and Deejo as I do appreciate and admire your input and all that you have been through.
> Do you think that a man makes more of a commitment than a woman? What I mean is: Don't women make the same commitment in that they invest their love, patience, understanding and compassion?


I consistently made it clear throughout our courting that I take commitment very seriously. I don't take love lightly. Every single time I uttered the words 'I love you', I meant it from the bottom of my heart. I meant it as a term of endearment and an acknowledgment of my commitment. I never questioned her love or commitment either. I thought I understood her terms of love and commitment - I just didn't know that the terms were subject to change. In the end, it turned out that we had radically different views on commitment.



> In this day and age it isn't so much one person paying the mortgage and all the bills. It is more of a collective partnership, right? I think both partners have so much to loose if the marriage goes south. Am I wrong? I don't think long term planning is so much of a male thing but now more of a marriage thing. Goals, dreams, etc. I don't know, maybe I have a different outlook. What am I missing here?


No, you aren't wrong. You are absolutely right. All the more reason that a marriage can tank in a heartbeat if one of the partners _rejects_ or does not subscribe to those terms, or what is required for those long range plans. My stbx and I got so far off being on the same page, that we were no longer even reading the same book. Apparently you do have a different outlook. It is certainly very different than the one held by my stbx.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Brennan said:


> Sorry, I have another question for the three of you. It is a painful one to ask but here it goes: Does a man marry out of obligation?
> My (now) husband and I got pregnant when we were both in college, 21 and scared out of our minds. He proposed a few days after I told him I was pregnant. I accepted the ring but told him that if he wants to marry me after our son was born, then I would be happy with that. I didn't want anybody to think it was because of our son or a "shotgun" wedding. He didn't like it but we delayed our wedding until our son was 10 months old.
> We have been married for 17 years now and I get this feeling that it was out of obligation. Granted we are having communication issues throughout our marriage but my feeling of "obligation" is heightened because of our current marital problems.
> So, does a man marry out of obligation? It's sad, I wish more than anything I would have had a proposal that I knew came from the heart and not this nagging sense that somebody was bending his ear. Any thoughts?


Nobody muddles through 17 years because they were pushed into it. 

My reading of the context as framed paints 'obligation' as a negative. I don't think it need be. I have no idea what kind of man your husband is. But unless he is utterly ambivalent and easily manipulated, remaining engaged for 17 years isn't something you can fake. At the least I feel comfortable that no man worth his salt could.

It sounds like your marriage may be in a place where both of you are wondering about revisionist history. Maybe you both have a case of the 'What if's?'

We are all obliged to live up to the commitment we made to get married. That will invariably involve strife and discomfort. At those times it should be empowering to revisit your obligations and commitment rather than feeling stifled by them.

We do want to do right by our women and our families. Yes, biologically we still want to provide for and keep those we love safe and secure. In return, we want to feel respected and valued for doing so. 

So what if he felt obligated to marry to you? If this is truly something eating away at you, I humbly submit it is wasted and misplaced energy. 

I married for love, honor and commitment - and we're done. The circumstances of 'why' we got married were pitch perfect. Didn't mean squat in the end. I hope you see what I'm getting at.

Keep at it. Work at making it better, happier, more balanced. That should be your obligation.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Today I was talking to my husband. 

On the wedding day, the man thinks I am married to my princess. The woman thinks I am married to my prince. They have happy smiles, they look forward to their life together. They are the happiest people. 

My husband said something interesting but it was off topic. He said the reason the bride and groom are the happiest because they have everybody's attention that day. After months of planning, inviting, designing, finally get to show off, she is the most beautiful woman in the room, he is the most handsome man in the room, everybody's attention is on them, HAPPY. But how much money do they have to spend just to have that day's glory? 

I think when people are married, they are committed, I don't think divorce ever crossed their mind. Why is the divorce rate so high now? 


A lot of people lack communication skills. 

I am tired today. 

I'll do it another day.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Question to the sage men that are AFEH, Scanner and Deejo as I do appreciate and admire your input and all that you have been through.
> Do you think that a man makes more of a commitment than a woman? What I mean is: Don't women make the same commitment in that they invest their love, patience, understanding and compassion?
> In this day and age it isn't so much one person paying the mortgage and all the bills. It is more of a collective partnership, right? I think both partners have so much to loose if the marriage goes south. Am I wrong? I don't think long term planning is so much of a male thing but now more of a marriage thing. Goals, dreams, etc. I don't know, maybe I have a different outlook. What am I missing here?


I honestly don’t know if mine was a greater commitment than my wife’s. It was my wife’s decision to not work on the marriage (I gave her an ultimatum) and leave, so at the end of the day I guess I “won” if that can be called winning.

There were times when I was deeply worried about my wife’s commitment to me, I felt very insecure in our relationship. Twice over the years I asked her to re marry me and go on a second honeymoon and twice she turned me down flat. Even then I didn’t see the writing on the wall.

I paid all of the bills, everyone one of them. Stbx never volunteered to help me out in the times I struggled. I think because she saw what she did as a “duty” and therefore paying the bills was my duty. So she saw me as failing in my duty. Can’t pay the mortgage one time in 30 years? I’m a failure at my duty type of thing. It is very sad. I didn’t see things like that. Not at all like that. If my wife was struggling with something I’d step right in and help her out, no question. Never again.

I do think women get hit on a lot more than men. I’ve had women occasionally hit on me, knocks on door of hotel bedroom at 1 in the morning for a “light” that type of thing. But I think my wife was hit on far more than me and it was her commitment to me that turned them down, most of them anyway.

I guess husband and wife are both very committed, maybe just in different ways. It is my experience that women are much more “oriented” in the present and past (what is, what was) than men and that men are much more oriented in the future and present (what could be, what is).

Bob


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Sorry, I have another question for the three of you. It is a painful one to ask but here it goes: Does a man marry out of obligation?
> My (now) husband and I got pregnant when we were both in college, 21 and scared out of our minds. He proposed a few days after I told him I was pregnant. I accepted the ring but told him that if he wants to marry me after our son was born, then I would be happy with that. I didn't want anybody to think it was because of our son or a "shotgun" wedding. He didn't like it but we delayed our wedding until our son was 10 months old.
> We have been married for 17 years now and I get this feeling that it was out of obligation. Granted we are having communication issues throughout our marriage but my feeling of "obligation" is heightened because of our current marital problems.
> So, does a man marry out of obligation? It's sad, I wish more than anything I would have had a proposal that I knew came from the heart and not this nagging sense that somebody was bending his ear. Any thoughts?


I think we go wrong with questions like “Does a man marry out of obligation?”. It is way too much of a generalisation. Not all men, or women, are the same. I think the question you need your answer to is “Did my husband marry me out of obligation?” and there’s only one person in the world that knows the answer. Maybe you just don’t want to ask him the question because you fear the answer?

I have a similar story. We courted and were engaged for over 4 years before we got married but we’d never set the wedding date. One day my wife told me she was pregnant. What did I think? Well at that time my number one dream in life was to have a family with my wife her pregnancy just brought things forward. A few days after I was told her father asked if I’d considered an abortion. I liked the guy but thought that was a crazy question, way way out of the park. I told him I loved his daughter and want to marry her.

Over twenty years after our wedding day during a row my wife said something like “You got me pregnant to force me to marry you”. Now my wife is a very dutiful person. I don’t think she wanted to marry me but she did it out of duty to her parents. All those years and after all we’d been through she’d held that grudge against me, she was bitter and resentful because of that. Truth really can be stranger than fiction. I married out of love, not duty.

I do understand, now at least, that it’s a massively difficult and life changing decision for a woman to either keep or abort an unplanned pregnancy. I understand that because I’m a humanist. Obviously later my wife struggled with her decision to go ahead and marry for decades and that decision may well haunt her all her life. And of course within her family I was always seen as the one who “forced” her to marry me.

It was one of the reasons I asked my wife when in my 50s to re marry me, to retake our vows, so she could marry me “of her own free will”. One of the reasons she gave for turning me down was “I’ve taken my vows once already”.

I’m so glad I’m out.

Bob


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

b_lennon said:


> And to answer Brennan's question, I kind of agree. Whoever I end up marrying (if I marry) should expect me to put in the same work as he does. I work full-time, I will help pay the bills and take care of things. Or do men know this, but still feel like they have the ultimate responsibility for the family's well-being??


Surely, at the end of the day the wife takes time out from work to be a stay at home mum? For 2 years, 5 years? Then if another child is born within that time period then the wife’s phase of being a stay at home mum is extended? Isn’t that what most women look for in a man? The man’s ability to support them and the children during this early stage of nurturing and caring for the children in the family?

I think it commendable that you’re not looking for a free ride from your husband. I’m not saying that’s what my wife did at all. She very very much pulled her weight in our marriage with the things she did do. Helping with the finances though wasn’t one of them. And she “wasn’t” many things. For example she wasn’t at all a spendthrift, she was very frugal. She never ran up credit card bills.

Unless of course the couple can save enough money enough money to cover the cost of the loss of the wife’s earnings during this stage of the marriage. But who can do that?

I think it is very different “in this day and age” re just who the breadwinner is in the marriage. In my day it was most certainly the husband who brought home the bacon so to speak. If the wife did work, her money was seen as just that, her money. To do what she liked with.

And still I found a lot of ingratitude from the wives for what the husbands did in the marriages of the generation before me. There were no drunken husbands, no wife beaters, no thieves or rogues and as far as I’m aware of no affairs with those husbands. These men were stable, conscientious, loyal, responsible and committed husbands. Sometimes this stuff beggars belief.

Bob

PS: Somebody has to take ultimate responsibility for the family’s well being. Somebody has to do that. And it involves so much that I wont go into it. But I do believe it’s called “being a man”.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

This thread is full of incredible testimony.

I agree on much of this.

A good man, commits from his word, and regards his word as binding.

Also, yes, a man needs to be forward thinking, planning, seeing and doing what needs to be done to protect his future self.

A woman, by contrast very much in the present, the immediate here and now.

So in this, when a man says he "loves" a woman, and a woman says she "loves" her man, these are often very different feelings.

A man "loves" his woman, saying he wants to protect and possess her self and her body and her emotion and her attention, selfishly, all to himself to the exclusion of others.

A woman "loves" her man, saying she wants him to protect and adore her, and he has won the prize of her self and her body and her emotion and her attention, she wants this also selfishly, all to her self to the exclusion of others.

Each needing the other, but needing different things for different selfish reasons, each of them selfish in their own way.

A woman, to a man who wins her devotion, she makes him feel successful, dominant, and that is the hero to protect and possess and "save" his woman, this is the man's bliss. 

It is the responsibility of his woman to allow him to feel these things.

A man, to a woman who wins his commitment, he makes her feel protected, secure, and emotionally complete. 

It is the responsibility of her man to allow her to feel these things.

Generalizations, sure.

But this is why, the man is not always too impressed just because a woman is able to support a career or pay her way. For this is not to him a material need, and in fact can take away his emotional and sexual need of being the provider and protector.

This is also why, for the woman, it is not always beneficial for her man to go above and beyond in any way to act equal to a woman or take on much at all of feminine traits. In this way he will neglect to see that emotionally and sexually her desires to feel protected and provided for are met. In these modern times, these emotional needs are still needing to be felt in his woman.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

Brennan said:


> Sorry, I have another question for the three of you. It is a painful one to ask but here it goes: Does a man marry out of obligation?
> My (now) husband and I got pregnant when we were both in college, 21 and scared out of our minds. He proposed a few days after I told him I was pregnant. I accepted the ring but told him that if he wants to marry me after our son was born, then I would be happy with that. I didn't want anybody to think it was because of our son or a "shotgun" wedding. He didn't like it but we delayed our wedding until our son was 10 months old.
> We have been married for 17 years now and I get this feeling that it was out of obligation. Granted we are having communication issues throughout our marriage but my feeling of "obligation" is heightened because of our current marital problems.
> So, does a man marry out of obligation? It's sad, I wish more than anything I would have had a proposal that I knew came from the heart and not this nagging sense that somebody was bending his ear. Any thoughts?


I hope this story will help.

My wife and myself, we were dating for several years in high school, and nothing formally but non the less practically engaged together but wishing to put off marriage until after college.

Only a few weeks into the first semester, did we find out she was pregnant with our oldest son.

So, even though before planned, I was delighted to finally marry her and, yes, practically unknowing the future or even how to make ends meet.

So years later, in talking one evening together intimately, and without thinking of it much at all, I made the offhand comment that "I was glad I got her pregnant when I did", as it started us together at a younger age to pursue children and then hoping to get them on their way ourself still young enough to enjoy life.

Then she burst into tears, and completely lost it for a minute or two.

I was taken by surprise of course, and asked her what is wrong?

She said nothing was wrong, she was crying from happiness.

That for so many years she held back her guilt that she was pregnant at such a young age, for us to have to be married, and that it was such the release of her burden to hear that from me.

And of course, I had no idea at all she was carrying such a burden!

And I continued to explain to her, that as a man, as HER MAN, it was my pleasure and delight to marry her, to start a family, and that our intimacy together and sexual experiences were not done without these deeper feelings at all. 

For a man, this is to the core what marriage means to him, to be the hero of his woman, for each to meet their needs and desires together!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I agree with what you say BBW and it is an exceptionally good way of expressing of how I feel about things. And there’re things I hadn’t thought about there. But things change, in my experience anyway, in long term marriages.

The partners in the marriage evolve … and change. People literally fundamentally change. They change deep inside of them, their core values and beliefs that drive their behaviour change. But somehow they remain the same as well. Because people change the dynamics between them change as well. Within a healthy and happy marriage what was once previously healthy dynamics become seriously dysfunctional dynamics.

One of the key changes is based on the history of the marriage. In our time together in a marriage the partners “offend” one another. It’s rarely a deliberate offence, rather a mistake that hurt the other. I think it is so important in long term marriages to address and overcome those offences, on both sides. I think at anniversary time couples should sit down and look back at the past year. Just to see how they did, to see if they were satisfied and if their objectives were met. But most importantly to address and overcome any resentment that may be building up.

What I saw in the marriages of the generation before me was that it was the husband’s who forgave their wives their offences. It was the husband’s who demonstrated in loving terms their appreciation of what their wives did for them. They did it with flowers and they did it with poetry and other things. They did those things while at the same time paying all the bills, decorating and maintaining the home and garden etc. Heroes those men. I think forgiveness is a big part of a man’s love for his woman. I’m certain wives simply cannot comprehend that. Why do men forgive? I think in the main because we are forward thinking and don’t really have time to dwell on past issues. We have to be optimistic to do what we do and don’t dwell on past mistakes. We’d rather learn from them and move on.

Why don’t women forgive? They cause offences and hurt just as much as men, either deliberately or not. I think women don’t forgive because they’re in the main backward looking as well as living in the present. They simply cannot see that the resentment they build up over time actually locks true love out of the marriage. True love and true commitment is totally blocked, eclipsed by long term, built up resentment.

It was my wife’s bitterness and resentment and her ingratitude for what I bought to the table that was the cause of the final shattering of my love for her and consequently my commitment and then the marriage. Unlike the husband’s in generation before me I refused to live with my wife’s bitterness and resentment no matter how much I was in love with her or what went on before.

It was a big shock to my wife as she had seen the father she loved dearly stand by his wife, her mother, through all her bitterness and resentment for him until the day he died aged 80 years old. That was not the world for me. It was however my wife’s expectation that I would stand by her and her bitterness and resentment.

I know she still doesn't "get it" and doubt that she ever will.

Bob


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

AFEH said:


> I agree with what you say BBW and it is an exceptionally good way of expressing of how I feel about things. And there’re things I hadn’t thought about there. But things change, in my experience anyway, in long term marriages.
> 
> The partners in the marriage evolve … and change. People literally fundamentally change. They change deep inside of them, their core values and beliefs that drive their behaviour change. But somehow they remain the same as well. Because people change the dynamics between them change as well. Within a healthy and happy marriage what was once previously healthy dynamics become seriously dysfunctional dynamics.
> 
> ...


Bob, 

What you said makes perfect sense. 

Men are usually more forgiving, they are taught to be gentlemen. They are taught to endure women. They are taught not to fight with women. But women take this for granted, you give them an inch, they take a mile. If you don't do it their way, they cry, they complain, they nag, they bicker..... until you do it their way. If you still don't do it their way, they ignore you, they punish you by holding back sex. Women like to keep account of injuries, they can't let it go. If you had said something hurting, they remember it and they always bring it up. They have good memories, especially for bad things. They like to argue, what they argue doesn't make sense, but they want you to take their side and tell them they are smart. If you are not on their side, then you are in trouble, no sex for you. 

I see why a lot of women who have good husbands not enjoying happy marriages, because they only think about themselves. It is always what I get, what I want, what I like, what I love, not what I should do to make him happy. Like cooking a nice meal, cleaning up the apartment, satisfying her husband's needs. They have all the excuses for not doing what they are supposed to do. I am tired, I am depressed, I am busy........

Why don't their men want to talk to them, because they have nothing interesting to talk about. What they can talk about is dresses, shoes, purses, jewelries, gossip, being hurt by family members, men don't like to talk about this kind of things. Men get annoyed. 

I don't enjoying talking to women. They sit there feeling sorry for themselves, you don't dare to tell them the truth, because if you tell them the real reason, they burst out and you are not her friend anymore. They only like to hear echoes. They like it if you agree with them and tell them what they think is right. Just baby them and spoil them. 

My husband doesn't allow me to be like this. Sometimes I want to feel sorry for myself, my husband tells me directly that I am wrong, and I have to work on it. Not nice to hear, but he helps me mature!!!


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Scannerguard said:


> It's kind of like taking on a child, at least emotionally. A puppy would be easier at this point.


DON'T commit if that is the kind of person you chose to commit to. Duh.

I hope you heal. You have some really weird notions of what marriage is when it doesn't HAVE to be that way.


Editting this... the tenor that I imagined in my head likely did not come across as I meant it when I wrote this! I was trying to be funny. Rather than just delete it, I figured I woudl apologize in case you thought I meant to be rude. I did not! 

Like me saying to DH OW I just stubbed my toe! Him saying don't do that! No kidding!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

I think Scanner has this view because of what has happened in his own marriage. He is of course colored as we all are depending on our marital situation.
I do appreciate the replies. I have asked my husband and he says that he didn't commit because he had to. I do wonder though. I agree that after 17 years he wouldn't be here if he didn't want to be. Having said that though, he takes being a father VERY seriously. How many times have we read about a father sticking around for the kids? This is what concerns me about my own marriage.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

I thought of another reason this morning I am scared of committment:

*Committment is hazardous to your health *

I guess this is what Deejo was saying but I have noticed every time I was in a relationship I gained weight. I am just exiting one right now and man, am I looking forward to training again.

All the going out to eat, and the endless talking and conversations.

Less talking! More training!

I am afraid of marriage again because I may balloon up again.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

> Question to the sage men that are AFEH, Scanner and Deejo as I do appreciate and admire your input and all that you have been through.
> Do you think that a man makes more of a commitment than a woman? What I mean is: Don't women make the same commitment in that they invest their love, patience, understanding and compassion?


Brennan:

I am hardly a sage. I am learning and accepting everyday things I did to sabatoge my own relationship but I appreciate the kind words and ego stroke.

Yes, I think women make the same level of committment, if not more. I guess I shouldn't have said they throw it around casually.

It's just that when men make it, men make it, you know?



> In this day and age it isn't so much one person paying the mortgage and all the bills. It is more of a collective partnership, right? I think both partners have so much to loose if the marriage goes south. Am I wrong?


As my stb-x is currently finding out.



> I don't think long term planning is so much of a male thing but now more of a marriage thing. Goals, dreams, etc. I don't know, maybe I have a different outlook. What am I missing here?


Nothing. Your outlook is very healthy, I think.




> Sorry, I have another question for the three of you. It is a painful one to ask but here it goes: Does a man marry out of obligation?
> My (now) husband and I got pregnant when we were both in college, 21 and scared out of our minds. He proposed a few days after I told him I was pregnant. I accepted the ring but told him that if he wants to marry me after our son was born, then I would be happy with that. I didn't want anybody to think it was because of our son or a "shotgun" wedding. He didn't like it but we delayed our wedding until our son was 10 months old.
> We have been married for 17 years now and I get this feeling that it was out of obligation. Granted we are having communication issues throughout our marriage but my feeling of "obligation" is heightened because of our current marital problems.
> So, does a man marry out of obligation? It's sad, I wish more than anything I would have had a proposal that I knew came from the heart and not this nagging sense that somebody was bending his ear. Any thoughts?


Yes, I can hear the pain in your "voice" as you ask that. . .it's full of insecurity.

Wow. . .you know. . .marriage and love are a complicated thing.

I am reminded of one of my favorite musicals "Fiddler on the Roof" (I would have made a good Jew). Anyway, the whole musical is about "arranged marriages and love" and how a young generation is resisting the tradition of arranging marriages and they just marry out of romantic love.

So. . .about 3/4's of the way through the musical, the parents (Reb Teyve and Golda) are confronted with the question, as their marriage was arranged:

"Do you love me?" 

Of course, they do a whole musical number on it. In this case, it's the man, Reb Teyve, who is insecure. He asks Golda, "Do you love me?" And she is taken back by his question. . .like what does that have to do with anything as they try to struggle through life?

But the jist of what they say to each other (and is a touching moment) is, "Yes, despite our marriage being arranged, seeing each other for the first time on our wedding day (can you imagine?). . .I did end up loving you."

Apparently the "trial by fire", of raising kids, going hungry at times, building a home, sharing a bed, etc, nutured a love between them that wasn't there when they got married.

If you think about it, your marriage was kind of "arranged" if it was done on a "shotgun" approach with an unplanned pregnancy.

(and oh gee, like that never happens )

I think you two love each other more than you both know.

Have a good day.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I'll add 'weight gain' to the Commitment list of side effects.

Can I call it 'bloating'? Sounds a little more onerous that way.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Being serious for a moment, I thought about this a great deal yesterday, and I came to a very simple, and honest realization;

I am at my best when I have given my commitment to someone. You get the absolute best of me if you have my commitment. It isn't something that I fear. It is honestly something I look forward to ... but the person it is given to needs to earn it.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

While we are talking about men and commitment, another good movie to watch, and it wasn't a BlockBuster. . .but it was good nonetheless, if you wnat to really, REALLY get inside a man's head with committment and marriage and everything:

_"Family Man" with Nicholas Cage._

In this movie, the fictional character is a rather ****y businessman, rich, has an awesome career, gettign laid with hot sex by a different woman each night is wisked off by an angel to another life he said he would have never had or chosen:

He becomes a tire salesman with a wife and two kids, complete with buddies from a bowling league. (lol - the writers were sure to stereotype this on purpose)

What you see the main character struggling with is the choices he made in the second scenario, what he has given up (the first life). Yet (*gawd, this is crazy, I am choking up*), he fears the day a bell will ring and the angel is going to pull him from his wife and kids. A good moment from the movie is when the kid pulls up from behind him on his bike and rings the bell and he develops extreme fear of sudden loss.

The movie is about the conflict ALL men (your husband included! Me, Deejo) have about marriage/committment.

Every man thinks, "I could have done this!!! I could have done that!!!, if only I hadn't gotten married!!!!" 

Yet, they much feel adoration and love for their families. They know they have gotten a good deal, a great deal. A touching scene is where the wife gives him a "power suit" that he was lusting for because he knew it was important to him.

Yes, we feel obligated. . .and we resent those obligations at times. I guess that's part of the human experience and the maturation process of a man.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Saw the movie ... with the ex of course, a number of years ago. We both cried like babies.

More importantly, Tea Leone is wicked hot.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Deejo said:


> I'll add 'weight gain' to the Commitment list of side effects.
> 
> Can I call it 'bloating'? Sounds a little more onerous that way.


My "bloating" left me about two months after separation. It had been there a long time. Amazing this stuff. No more piles either.

See a slimmish man with a bloated stomach? He has exceptionally deep emotional and psychological problems in his marriage. Eventually the digestive system shuts down and “digested” food literally can’t get out. The digestive system, in disarray for such a very long time so no nutrients and vitamins are being taken in so dementia and eventually Alzheimer’s raise their ugly heads. Happened to my father in law, wasn’t going to happen to me no matter how much I was in love with her or what went on before. Fingers crossed, touch wood and all that.

Bob

PS: And I'm farting again lol.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

AFEH said:


> My "bloating" left me about two months after separation. It had been there a long time. Amazing this stuff. No more piles either.
> 
> See a slimmish man with a bloated stomach? He has exceptionally deep emotional and psychological problems in his marriage. Eventually the digestive system shuts down and “digested” food literally can’t get out. The digestive system, in disarray for such a very long time so no nutrients and vitamins are being taken in so dementia and eventually Alzheimer’s raise their ugly heads. Happened to my father in law, wasn’t going to happen to me no matter how much I was in love with her or what went on before. Fingers crossed, touch wood and all that.
> 
> ...


Better out than in, Bob.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

greenpearl said:


> Women like to keep account of injuries, they can't let it go.


That's a really good post, but I don’t agree with it all. In some ways bless you are revealing a part of the woman's mind. Particularly with the above.

Why do they do that? Why don't they let go of their injuries? There will be a reason for it and there is a reason for it.

I have a theory about it which I'll be posting soon.

Bob


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Scannerguard said:


> I thought of another reason this morning I am scared of committment:
> 
> *Committment is hazardous to your health *
> 
> ...


Committed: loyal and willing to give your time and energy to something that you believe in.

Committed: to place in a prison or mental institution. And we walk in of our own accord lol. Just that sometimes we forget we can just walk back out again, the door is always open. It’s a bit of a shock when we do and learn what freedom is.

Bob


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Scanner and all,
I hear what you are saying. My fear is the "staying for the kids part". He says he loves me (often) but his actions don't back that up. I have posted about that previously. So I do wonder, is he just sticking it out for another 6 years? It is a terrible feeling.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Being serious for a moment, I thought about this a great deal yesterday, and I came to a very simple, and honest realization;
> 
> I am at my best when I have given my commitment to someone. You get the absolute best of me if you have my commitment. It isn't something that I fear. It is honestly something I look forward to ... but the person it is given to needs to earn it.


That just seems smart. Didn't a sage old philosopher named Jesus once say "Cast not your pearls among swine?"


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Scanner and all,
> I hear what you are saying. My fear is the "staying for the kids part". He says he loves me (often) but his actions don't back that up. I have posted about that previously. So I do wonder, is he just sticking it out for another 6 years? It is a terrible feeling.


Sorry I have not really read the whole thread. I am WICKED flaky today. Flakier than normal even....

One thought. Is it possible that you can't hear him when he says he loves you? 

My husband will come up to me and place his entire weight on me so I am basically holding him up. He calls this a hug. Used to annoy the CRAP out of me. This kind of behavior, and always pawing at me.... MADE ME OUT OF MY MIND. He says he loves me why does he treat me like a two bit hooker? One minute ignoring my requests for help with practical matters then seconds later pawing my frame and drooling like I am meat!

His love language is touch. So every time I slapped at his pawing, I was saying **** you I don't love you.

My love language is acts of service. So every time he blew off (my perspective, forgot his perspective) to help me, to ME failed me in a matter of stress reduction, I felt like he was saying **** you, I don't love you.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I am *WICKED* flaky today. Flakier than normal even....


You just busted out your Boston. 

Brennan, I will take a look at your threads to get a better sense of where you, and where you think he, is coming from.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Better out than in, Bob.


Ha! In more ways than one Deejo.

Bob


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