# So, I don't see another way out



## shortbus

Hi all, I want to say thanks to many posters. I've lurked for a long time and have read quite a bit of good advice.

57, wife is 54, one son 19 away in college. No issues with infidelity, (that I know of), no addictions, no unemployment/underemployment. Coming up on 29 years married, about a year together prior. Second marriage for me, my first wife was a pathological liar. I don't know one thing about our marriage that wasn't a lie. That marriage ended in infidelity on her part. She had a boyfriend for months. I caught them in the act. We were only married about 1 year.

I'm a recovering doormat, grew up in a single parent home. Lived with my mom and grandparents till they passed. My grandfather was my father figure. He passed when I was 10. Most of the realities of my relationship with my mother have become apparent in the last few years. She passed in '13. I have since, 'woke'. My mother was a prickly narcissist. I also assumed a parental role with her at my grandfathers passing. Some stuff I've read has hit me like a ton of bricks. Reality is, I became a doormat as a coping strategy as a child. I now know this and am now not the doormat I was.

My marriage is a dead bedroom, for decades. Early in the marriage, my advances were met with, 'but I really like it sunday morning'. This led to arguments and acceptance by me. This put me on a roller coaster. The periods of no sex would make me angry and resentful. Then we'd make love and I'd think ok, everything's going to be good now, not so much.

I can't remember when, but our dead bedroom went to a sexless marriage, My advances or requests were met with, 'we'll see'. We would have sex once a month or less. She'd never initiate, just say, 'we could have a date tomorrow'. So I was on the same roller coaster, we'd make love then I'd think everything's ok now, not so much.

We had agreed prior to marriage that we weren't going to have kids. I had a stepson with my first marriage and I said I really didn't want to be a parent. 8 years in, she said she wanted a child, picture Marisa Tomei stomping her foot in My Cousin Vinny. She gave me an ultimatum, she wanted a child or was going to leave, I know what I should've done, but no, I gave in. I thought this would be what she wanted and our marriage would get back on track, not so much.

After his birth, I made a plea to return intimacy to the marriage. At one point, she said, 'I wish you'd just get a girlfriend and leave me alone'. I couldn't imagine leaving at this point, the last thing I wanted was for my son to grow up without a father. Her words were like a dagger to me.

So in '16, I had decided to leave the marriage. My son was graduating high school soon. But I thought I'd give it one last try. I bought a couple of books, 5 Love Languages and one on sexless marriage. I read them then we had the 'talk'. I said I couldn't live like this anymore, my marriage was one of anger and resentment and I can't believe we are where we are. She agreed to work on things, read the books. I asked could we make love twice a week. She's angry and upset. She said she'd try, and it was at the end of this that she once again said, 'she wished I'd get a girlfriend and leave her alone'. I said I couldn't believe she said that to her husband.

It took her a month to read 5 love languages. She never read the other one. I wanted feedback from the 5LL book to see what I need to do to make her feel loved. Maybe I've done wrong all these years. She said no, I make her feel loved. After this, I'd try to initiate or ask for a date, and I'd get an angry yes. I told her I've gone from rejection to this angry yes, WTH. She said she felt like now she can't say no. So I told her no, I'm not initiating or asking anymore, the angry yes was as bad or worse than the rejection.

The boy was having a rough time his first year of college, so I put off filing. Now her stepdad has cancer, pancreatic, and I've put off filing. I just can't take it any longer.

The only thing she's done was last summer. I had planned another 'talk' but it was going to be the last. So instead of that, I told her, I'm not in a good place, when we make love I'm good and think all is right with the world, and in a few days, I'm not in such a good place. She started making marks on a calendar on the fridge and said she doesn't want me to feel that way. So I actually caught her checking the calendar and we were doing it more frequently. She quit that after about a month.

So we don't fight, don't argue, just have an elephant in the room. I don't pout, make comments, nothing. If you were here, you wouldn't know a thing.

So, sorry for the book. Don't really know what advice is going to help at this point. Thanks for letting me vent.


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## personofinterest

In short, she is getting what she needs, so it's all good.

There will never be a "good" time to file. So once you have a plan in place, just execute it. But don't execute anything without talking to an attorney.

I'm sorry you have gone through this for so many years. I am skipping the whole improvement and "Try this" tangent because I have good reading comprehension skills, and I can see you have already done that ad nauseum.


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## Rob_1

Bottom line, you have read all those books for nothing; you're still being a weak man, a doormat, no matter what you say to yourself. 

Grab your balls and do what you need to do in order to get out of this relationship, if that's what you really want to do; otherwise stop with your wishful thinking, and accept that at every attempt that you make to leave, there will be another excuse not to.

Have you even after all this time, consulted with a divorce attorney to find out were you stand? Probably not.


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## shortbus

Oh no, I have consulted with an attorney, 2 in fact.
I'd agree that I was a weak man, a doormat. But no more. However, at my age, I'm losing everything I've ever had and worked so hard to get.
The wife gets nothing but cash and prizes.
Thanks anyway, I'm off to work.


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## personofinterest

shortbus said:


> Oh no, I have consulted with an attorney, 2 in fact.
> I'd agree that I was a weak man, a doormat. But no more. However, at my age, I'm losing everything I've ever had and worked so hard to get.
> The wife gets nothing but cash and prizes.
> Thanks anyway, I'm off to work.


I know that part sucks. BUT

What YOU are getting:

freedom
relief from constant frustration
a new start
the opportunity to find someone or someones who will welcome what you have to offer, including sex
peace of mind


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## Lostinthought61

Shortbus, i truly feel your pain and basically when a spouse says no to intimacy they are basically saying that they do not want to support what you in in the marriage to feel love and connected...i so get that, and sadly you keep pushing off leaving due to family crisis...problem is that there will always be something that will stop you, there is never a good time to leave. you should think about selling the house first so that that you can split the equality and find a place of your own....this i promise you will hit her harder than anything else...and will tell her that you are ready. does she work? you might want to tell her she better start if she hasn't because there is no way you are going to support yourself and her in the lifestyle she is used too.


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## Taxman

Shortbus: I would file, and be a total prick about it. Let me say that I am around the divorce industry, and have seen just about every reason under the sun to divorce. A situation such as yours is one which will cause your wife the greatest amount of stress. I say this, because I have been party to two other actions wherein the husband divorced the wife, as she denied him sex. There was no infidelity, and it came down in both cases to the upbringing, characterizing sex as only for children, and an act that "no good woman would ever enjoy."

In one case, he was nearly shouting it from the rooftops. She could not deal with being characterized as "frigid", so she spread a rumor that he was having an affair. He heard that, and went absolutely ballistic. Within weeks she was fielding calls, most of them referring to her as an idiot. Even her relatives, said that they left that thinking in the dust decades ago, and the best line, "So, do you really want to die alone?" The phone calls proved to be the worst for her, and she literally begged her husband on bent knee to rehabilitate her image. She sceamed at him to stop telling the truth. He said, I am just warning off the next guy. You are not worth a sexless life. It was like he plunged a knife into her, and she never really recovered. She dates very little, her reputation has preceeded her, given the small community in which she lives. Her ex? He auditioned a number of ladies for a year or so, and has just moved in with a pretty lady. They have my blessings.


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## 3Xnocharm

I seriously doubt anyone here is going to encourage you to stay in this marriage. You have obviously been making a lot of (one sided) effort over the years, and it sounds like your wife pretty much just doesn't care. Don't let her steamroll you in the divorce, make sure its fair.


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## Bananapeel

When you're on your deathbed you are going to be less concerned about giving up half of your assets then having lived with an ass for half your life. Trade her in and if you're concerned about the finances just find a woman that is financially stable to be with rather than a financial vampire.


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## wilson

There are so many sad stories here about sexless marriage that it's hard to offer you any hope. There's always a possibility things could turn around, but it depends on a lot of factors. Her attitude is terrible and is unlikely to change, and that's going to make any attempt at improvement fail. She barely acknowledges that intimacy should be part of a marriage. It's hard to see how her attitude will change.

I actually think your best chance for fixing things is to divorce, and do it with resolution. You need to shock her world for her to change her perspective. Take some time to learn about divorce in your state, talk to some attorneys, and get the paperwork in place. Then break the news that you're divorcing her. Don't be wishy-washy about it. Say you're divorcing her rather than saying you're thinking about divorce. When she asks why, tell her you won't live in a sexless marriage and you won't keep trying when she's not putting in any effort. And say you don't want to be in a relationship where she feels forced to be intimate with you. If she doesn't want intimacy, then the marriage is over. 

Starting going through the process and see what happens. If she has an epiphany and truly changes, then maybe consider calling of the divorce. But if she blame shifts on you and lots of external factors, then proceed with divorce. There's no sense in staying in the marriage if she's not committed to fixing the problem.

Cromer's thread Getting ready to drop the news  might be interesting for you to read. He was in a long-term sexless marriage and then blew it up one day when he got rejected and said he was divorcing her. It turns out she had affairs and got an STD and that's why she didn't want sex. But she eventually realized what she had lost and wanted to work on things. The baggage from the affairs killed that possibility. But I think part of the reason she wanted to try was from the divorce-bomb. It was so shocking that she finally realized what she was going to lose. If he had done it softly, she probably would have transitioned fine to being single.


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## arbitrator

*She's got you exactly where she wants you to be!

At this juncture, you'd be far better served by moving out, taking your son, filing for divorce, and starting over!

You shouldn't be the victim if she's going to continue embracing being an unemotional, unloving sexless old crone!

*


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## Blondilocks

Don't think of it as giving up half of your assets. Half of the assets already belong to her. Think of it as downsizing and upgrading.


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## Openminded

I had lots of everything during the decades I was married. Now I don't. But what I gained was getting my life back and the peace that goes with that. 

Just something for you to think about.


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## zookeeper

Don't be surprised if when she stares the stark reality of divorce in the face, she suddenly turns on the sex faucet. She may become that aggressive sex kitten you always dreamt of. Don't fall for it. It won't last.

Once you've made your decision, see it through to the end.


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## shortbus

Just got home from work, I'd like to thank all for the replies.

Person of Interest, that's the main thing for me, freedom and rid of the frustration.

L I T 61, yes she works although I'll get the fun of paying alimony.

Taxman, I love your stories. I have no family left other than my son. I can only imagine what she'll tell her family. I'll certainly get no sympathy from them.

3X no charm, unfortunately, fair's a steamroller for me, cash and prizes for her.

Bananapeel, I think I'll start my search for 80+ wealthy ladies that have a bad cough.

Wilson, I started my search here a long time ago in the sex in marriage forum and saw really no good news for turning around a sexless marriage. But I thought, no, my wife loves me, we're going to get thru this, (not so much). 
I did read Cromer's thread, quite sad.

Arbitrator, yes, I've thought for a long time she's gotten everything she's ever wanted.

Blondilocks, yes, but tough to wrap your head around giving away all those assets, when I was the only one to accumulate them.

Openminded, Yes, that's where I'm at. Serenity Now!

Zookeeper, Yes, I thought of that and yes, I know perfectly well it wouldn't last.


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## shortbus

One other thing, I'm worried about my son. Or should I say, how he'll take this. It would break my heart if this would damage our relationship. But I'm sure he'll blame me for breaking up the family. I don't know if I could take that. I don't want to put him in the middle or start a blame game between myself and the wife.
He's 19, 2nd year of college. I don't know if I was in his shoes what that would be like to be away from home and have your parents split.


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## turnera

shortbus said:


> L I T 61, yes she works although I'll get the fun of paying alimony.


meh, just another bill. Meanwhile, you'll spend every single day and night for the rest of your life doing what you want, seeking fun and love and adventure. I'd say that's worth another bill. 



> I have no family left other than my son. I can only imagine what she'll tell her family. I'll certainly get no sympathy from them.


Who cares? You'll never have to see them again anyway. Make new family.



> Blondilocks, yes, but tough to wrap your head around giving away all those assets, when I was the only one to accumulate them.


What's the dollar amount you'll lose? What's your annual income?


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## turnera

shortbus said:


> One other thing, I'm worried about my son. Or should I say, how he'll take this. It would break my heart if this would damage our relationship. But I'm sure he'll blame me for breaking up the family. I don't know if I could take that. I don't want to put him in the middle or start a blame game between myself and the wife.
> He's 19, 2nd year of college. I don't know if I was in his shoes what that would be like to be away from home and have your parents split.


Consider timing it when you can take a week off and when he will be out of school. That's in a couple weeks, right? Or else plan it for the end of the year and schedule a trip away just for the two of you; he won't be back in school until midway through January. Take him fishing or skiing or whatever you guys do. Be with him for a week and let it sink in, let him equate it with him still getting to hang out with his dad. Plan the vacation now and inform him that you and he will be going, so he doesn't make any other plans.


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## shortbus

Turnera, I'm looking at handing over about 250K, which I can barely come up with. I'll be broke heading into retirement. She'll get half my pension and alimony for a while.

My son and I have gone on vacation the last 2 summers right before he went back to school. I don't think he thought anything about it at the time. I'm guessing he'll think something hasn't been right for a while when I file.

I know I've put off filing. I was going to file several times and something happens and I don't, but I also realize there will never be a good time.

I honestly don't know what she'll pull when I file. She's normally pretty even keel but I can see that going out the window. I don't know if she'd move out or if we'd end up with an in house separation, oh joy.


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## BigDigg

shortbus said:


> 3X no charm, unfortunately, fair's a steamroller for me, cash and prizes for her.


You seem to be upset by the idea that she'll make out on this while you are poor and cash strapped. Not an expert (Taxman?) but don't believe that's how it works. You'll probably both be in exactly the same boat financially, no doubt a bit worse off from having a second set of costs to everything (house, utilities, etc.). If you strike out and find a new relationship (or she does too) some of those costs could go away or be minimized.

Also - I get why you feel like you do - but all those retirement savings were for the both of you. They were never just yours even if you were the primary contributor...


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## Emerging Buddhist

Perhaps I've missed something... but do you know why sex doesn't interest her?

I mean really, really know.


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## wilson

It may be easier on your son if you approach it like a separation at first. You can tell your son that a successful marriage has certain components, but something has been missing from your marriage for a while. Being his dad was so rewarding that you were able to over look it for a long time, but eventually it became too much. You tried to work it out many times, but were never successful. Now you and your wife are taking some time to re-examine the situation and figure out how to move forward. 

Keep in mind that you also need to be setting a good example for your son. Tell him it's important that he stands up for himself in his relationships and speaks up for his needs. If you stay in a sexless marriage for his sake, it's not setting a good example of how he should handle relationships in the future. If your son was in a similar marriage, think about what advice you would give him.

But stepping back for a moment, if the sex could magically be fixed, would you want to stay in the marriage? Does she bring joy to your life? Or is it more that the marriage is convenient and comfortable? Aside from the sex issue, is your relationship like spouses or roommates?

Earlier you mentioned being a recovering doormat. Have you read "No More Mr. Nice Guy"? It is the standard reference for helping "Nice Guys" gain more confidence and change that behavior.


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## 3Xnocharm

Your son is 19, he is a grown man. His reaction should really have no bearing in your decision, I really don't believe he is going to flip out. I'm sure he will be sad about it, that's only normal, but I am quite sure he has seen your unhappiness over the years and will be understanding. In fact, for all you know, he may have been hoping for this to himself for a while... unhappy parents really can affect their children, so he may surprise you. Our kids see WAY more than we ever give them credit for. 

I know its really easy to find excuses NOT to file, even when you know its the right decision for you. A change this big can be overwhelming. But project yourself 15 or 20 years into the future... can you imagine STILL being exactly where you are and and how you're feeling right now??


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## shortbus

BigDig, Yeah, that's how it works. She'll get the lions share of my 401K, IRA, and gut my savings. I have a pension from an old employer, we were married the whole time I worked there, she'll get half of that. Pretty good gig for never having on a set of work boots.
When she had our son, we agreed on her being a SAHM, till he got in school. She was home 16 years.
I agree that our savings were for, 'the both of us', but she didn't save anything, 'for the both of us'.
I've averaged 50 hr weeks for years, 'for the both of us', all it did was increase alimony.
Divorce settlement is a division of assets, only favors the lower earner.
I had the house appraised, I've got to pay her half of that. A house I built with my own 2 hands, a house she didn't pay one dollar for. I bought land from my mother, this is my family homestead, I have the original deed to my grandfather from 1927.
My son's in his 2nd year of college, so far I'm out 23K. She didn't come up with that.
So yeah, I understand that my savings and investments weren't, 'just mine', but now they'll be, 'just hers'.
So yeah, I ain't happy.


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## shortbus

Emerging Buddhist, I don't know, she enjoys it when we have it. It's never been, 'one sided'. In previous conversations, calm conversations, not fights, she claims she, 'has no idea', why. So, I'm at a loss.


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## BigDigg

shortbus said:


> BigDig, Yeah, that's how it works. She'll get the lions share of my 401K, IRA, and gut my savings. I have a pension from an old employer, we were married the whole time I worked there, she'll get half of that. Pretty good gig for never having on a set of work boots.
> When she had our son, we agreed on her being a SAHM, till he got in school. She was home 16 years.
> I agree that our savings were for, 'the both of us', but she didn't save anything, 'for the both of us'.
> I've averaged 50 hr weeks for years, 'for the both of us', all it did was increase alimony.
> Divorce settlement is a division of assets, only favors the lower earner.
> I had the house appraised, I've got to pay her half of that. A house I built with my own 2 hands, a house she didn't pay one dollar for. I bought land from my mother, this is my family homestead, I have the original deed to my grandfather from 1927.
> My son's in his 2nd year of college, so far I'm out 23K. She didn't come up with that.
> So yeah, I understand that my savings and investments weren't, 'just mine', but now they'll be, 'just hers'.
> So yeah, I ain't happy.


Sorry - doesn't compute for me. Why would she get the 'lions share' of some things like 401k and share others 50/50? Pretty sure the system is geared to spit out a relative 50/50 split looking across *all* assets. But again never gone through divorce and if your attorney has already drawn it up...can't believe you can't get a more equitable deal. Others know how this works?

Yes - divorce does tend to 'favor' the lower earner in terms of alimony. But presumably the concept here is that as a SAHM she provided 'value' to the marriage equivalent to what you were earning. As a man who makes 5x what my wife makes I can see how that might not feel right or fair. But that's something you agreed upon a long time ago. Total sunk cost. She's gonna get 'her' 50% and that's that.

So you are angry and you should be. My advice - forget her and use that anger as fuel. Not to pick on but to motivate - *you* allowed this sham of a marriage to exist for decades too long. Forget the money you can't get those lost years back. But you're not as old as you think and have plenty of life to live. Channel that anger and go become the best version of you ever. I think you'll love the freedom you're about to get. Go make a better life for yourself. Betting you'll be back here in a year happy as a clam living your dreams and with some new wonderful relationship and a new sense of hope. Shortbus Life 2.0 here you come...


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## shortbus

Wilson, the first 2 parts of you comments are exactly what I've been thinking. There are certain parts to a good marriage and if they're aren't there, this is where you end up.
And yes, I think it's an important message to show that you have to stand up for yourself.
During the 'talk' I pointed out that if we'd had sex twice a week during our marriage, we wouldn't be having this conversation. She is a nice person and pleasant to be around. So yeah, if this wouldn't have been a problem, we wouldn't be here. If she'd have done something to fix this since I brought up I can't live like this anymore, we wouldn't be here.
But here we are.
I'd say anymore, I treat her like a loving spouse, but the reality is we're roomates. If you were here, you wouldn't think anything's wrong. We don't fight, I don't pout, there's just an elephant in the room.
Yes, I read NMMNG, I learned a lot from that, I've also recommended it to others. I also read a book about the children of narcissists and realized being a doormat was programmed into me. I'm not the same man I was. That's mostly why I'm where I'm at. I will no longer live like I have been.
I once asked her, what advice would you give your son if he gets married, and a year later gives you a tearful phone call and says his new wife won't make love to him, he's crushed and doesn't know what to do. She cried and said, 'I don't know'.


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## sunsetmist

shortbus said:


> BigDig, Yeah, that's how it works. She'll get the lions share of my 401K, IRA, and gut my savings. I have a pension from an old employer, we were married the whole time I worked there, she'll get half of that. Pretty good gig for never having on a set of work boots.
> When she had our son, we agreed on her being a SAHM, till he got in school. She was home 16 years.
> I agree that our savings were for, 'the both of us', but she didn't save anything, 'for the both of us'.
> I've averaged 50 hr weeks for years, 'for the both of us', all it did was increase alimony.
> Divorce settlement is a division of assets, only favors the lower earner.
> I had the house appraised, I've got to pay her half of that. A house I built with my own 2 hands, a house she didn't pay one dollar for. I bought land from my mother, this is my family homestead, I have the original deed to my grandfather from 1927.
> My son's in his 2nd year of college, so far I'm out 23K. She didn't come up with that.
> So yeah, I understand that my savings and investments weren't, 'just mine', but now they'll be, 'just hers'.
> So yeah, I ain't happy.


In few divorces are both folks happy. You have been given thoughtful, truthful advice here. You are at an age where a decision will have to be made if you want to seek a better future.

*"At one point, she said, 'I wish you'd just get a girlfriend and leave me alone'. I couldn't imagine leaving at this point, the last thing I wanted was for my son to grow up without a father. Her words were like a dagger to me."*

And likely your resentment has been growing ever since. I can't fathom a woman who truly loves her husband treating you like this, but we see it all the time. Obviously, you have been doing some exploration of what divorce will cost you. You seem to realize what staying will cost also. How many times have you wished she'd just drop dead?

Your past no longer is pertinent. Your future is and your current choices will control your future. Best Wishes.....


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## shortbus

3Xnocharm, Yes, this must change, I can't/won't live like this. My future is to be happy and at peace, if I'm single, fine by me.


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## shortbus

BigDigg, Yes, I understand the sunk cost analysis, and completely agree with it. I'm past the anger, and am at acceptance, begrudgingly.
As for agreed upon a long time ago, no, I think the average man doesn't get married with a full knowledge of family law before he gets married. The lesson comes later, an expensive one. Lurkers and young men beware.
Quick math lesson. Lets say she has 50K in her IRA, I've got 250K, I get to pay her 100K so we're equal, trading account, she gets half, savings, she gets half, bonds, she gets half. I want to stay in the house, she gets half. I'm broke, she's sittin' in tall cotton.


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## shortbus

Sunsetmist, I agree.


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## wilson

It sounds like part of the problem is that she transitioned from seeing you as 'lover' to 'brother'. And if she thinks of you as her brother, it's no surprise she's not interested in intimacy.

There may actually a path forward provided you are okay with taking control of the intimacy. Although she might not have a natural desire within her, it may be possible to create that desire externally. But it is something you will have to do continually. You'll continually have to stoke that intimacy fire or else it will go out. You will have to create a sexual relationship instead of a friendship relationship.

Here's how I can see it working:

- For the next couple of months (through the holidays), be a great husband. Not a doormat, but a attentive, supportive, loving husband. Don't bring up intimacy at all. Don't initiate sex. But do be tender with things like goodbye kisses and such. Essentially, be the perfect husband she could want.

- During this time, read "Married Man's Sex Life Primer". It's a guide of how to sexualize your relationship. It's about creating an environment where sex and intimacy is always an undercurrent in the relationship. For many women, this is what they need to genuinely feel sexual.

- At the beginning of the year, tell her you want to separate. Say something like this "Things have been so nice over the holidays that it made me realize I want to be in a complete relationship. Although I love you, I can't see going forward without intimacy. I don't want to divorce, but I don't want to stay in a sexless relationship. I'm moving out so I can clear my head and think through my options." Then move into your own place.

- Hopefully this shocks her and she fights for the relationship. In some cases, it may trigger her desire again. This is called "hysterical bonding". It's like a survival mechanism if she feels vulnerable and wants to get back to the stable relationship.

- Go along with the hysterical bonding, but incorporate the principles of MMSLP. Take the sexual energy, reinforce it, and carry it forward. For example, if she invites you over for dinner and is throwing herself at you and you end up having sex, then the next time she invites you over you be playfully sexual in your comments and ask her things like what she has planned for dessert. Keep maintaining the sexual energy so that she deeply understands that to keep you in the relationship, sex is required.

The critical thing about making this work is if she fights to get you back. You need to really make her worried that the relationship will end, which is why I think you need to move out. But on the flip side, if she doesn't seem to care, then you'll get your answer right away. There's no need to stay with her if she's not motivated to fight for you.


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## shortbus

Wilson, I think that's not bad advice, but to be honest, I think too much water's passed under the bridge.
I've not read MMSLP, I considered it, read reviews and excerpts from it, but I don't think it's going to help with an uninterested pre/menopausal woman.
I'm not leaving the house.
I don't think I'm her brother, I'm her dad. I'm a plow horse and nothing more, she doesn't want for anything.
I've been a good husband throughout. We both read 5LL and she said she loves me and I meet her emotional needs.
At the end of the first 'talk', she's in tears and says maybe we should just get divorced. I said no, please let's try to work on this. I actually thought we'd see some hysterical bonding after that. Not so much. Should've said that's an excellent idea at that point.
I can't control the intimacy, you're just rejected. No counter offer either. Now in the recent past, she makes the rejection preemptively. If I'm home before her, I'll have dinner going, dishes done, she'll walk in the door and first thing out of her mouth, 'I'm so tired'. That means not tonight buddy.


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## personofinterest

shortbus said:


> One other thing, I'm worried about my son. Or should I say, how he'll take this. It would break my heart if this would damage our relationship. But I'm sure he'll blame me for breaking up the family. I don't know if I could take that. I don't want to put him in the middle or start a blame game between myself and the wife.
> He's 19, 2nd year of college. I don't know if I was in his shoes what that would be like to be away from home and have your parents split.


He won't blame you. Now, he will likely be upset about the divorce itself. But he probably knows the score. My oldest was almost your son's age when I D'ed. Their was unhappiness about the actual D, but both my kids were well aware of the unhappiness and that there was blame to share.


----------



## personofinterest

> Lurkers and young men beware.


WHY? Do they planning on dating your wife?

You need to avoid this kind of "all women suck" nonsense if you want a relationship with a self-respecting woman after your divorce.


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## Emerging Buddhist

shortbus said:


> Emerging Buddhist, I don't know, she enjoys it when we have it. It's never been, 'one sided'. In previous conversations, calm conversations, not fights, she claims she, 'has no idea', why. So, I'm at a loss.


I know you are frustrated but I'm not going to jump on the divorce bus on this one yet unless the financial fear is your only motivator for not walking away and if it is just that, you are selling your happiness to a highest bidder.

How is your intimacy other than nitty-gritty down to it sex?

Since your physical intimacy is waning to this point, in its place do you hold hands, cuddle, enjoy a closeness of touch and heart that does not ignite a sexual frenzy needing immediate gratification?

Put aside the immediate desire for a minute and look below the surface.

She is not sharing something with you, and it isn't only her body... her connection with you is missing something critical and it has been missing there for a long time.

Does she have the willingness to investigate with some soul-searching counseling? Do you have compassion and patience to try?

If she absolutely does not, then you have your answer. 

If you do not, then you have your answer as well.


----------



## personofinterest

I'm gonna answer this:




Emerging Buddhist said:


> I know you are frustrated but I'm not going to jump on the divorce bus on this one yet unless the financial fear is your only motivator for not walking away and if it is just that, you are selling your happiness to a highest bidder.
> 
> How is your intimacy other than nitty-gritty down to it sex?
> 
> Since your physical intimacy is waning to this point, in its place do you hold hands, cuddle, enjoy a closeness of touch and heart that does not ignite a sexual frenzy needing immediate gratification?
> 
> Put aside the immediate desire for a minute and look below the surface.
> 
> She is not sharing something with you, and it isn't only her body... her connection with you is missing something critical and it has been missing there for a long time.
> 
> Does she have the willingness to investigate with some soul-searching counseling? Do you have compassion and patience to try?
> 
> If she absolutely does not, then you have your answer.
> 
> If you do not, then you have your answer as well.


with this:



> It took her a month to read 5 love languages. She never read the other one. I wanted feedback from the 5LL book to see what I need to do to make her feel loved. Maybe I've done wrong all these years. She said no, I make her feel loved. After this, I'd try to initiate or ask for a date, and I'd get an angry yes. I told her I've gone from rejection to this angry yes, WTH. She said she felt like now she can't say no. So I told her no, I'm not initiating or asking anymore, the angry yes was as bad or worse than the rejection.
> 
> The only thing she's done was last summer. I had planned another 'talk' but it was going to be the last. So instead of that, I told her, I'm not in a good place, when we make love I'm good and think all is right with the world, and in a few days, I'm not in such a good place. She started making marks on a calendar on the fridge and said she doesn't want me to feel that way. So I actually caught her checking the calendar and we were doing it more frequently. She quit that after about a month.
> 
> My marriage is a dead bedroom, for decades. Early in the marriage, my advances were met with, 'but I really like it sunday morning'. This led to arguments and acceptance by me. This put me on a roller coaster. The periods of no sex would make me angry and resentful. Then we'd make love and I'd think ok, everything's going to be good now, not so much.
> 
> I can't remember when, but our dead bedroom went to a sexless marriage, My advances or requests were met with, 'we'll see'. We would have sex once a month or less. She'd never initiate, just say, 'we could have a date tomorrow'. So I was on the same roller coaster, we'd make love then I'd think everything's ok now, not so much.


Sounds like she tapped out his patience and compassion.


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## shortbus

Person of interest, 1st, thanks for the input on my son.
2nd, this isn't 'all women suck nonsense', this is understanding family law and how it applies to those who would have no clue otherwise.
3rd, this isn't really that my patience and compassion are tapped out, it's that I'm at the realization that things aren't going to change.
It's not that I'm okay with how things have been, I'm not. I'm an easy going, basically happy guy. But I know now that the main emotions in my marriage has been that of loss, anger, and resentment. Do I show it outwardly, no.
I decided in '16 to divorce but talked myself out of it because I honestly thought things would change.
In '17, last summer, I was to the end of my rope and was going to file, but had another talk and decided to give it a little more time, dumbass. So now I'm where I'm at.


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## Emerging Buddhist

personofinterest said:


> Sounds like she tapped out his patience and compassion.


She won't lead, follow, or get out of the way...

He does not know why and she is not going to let him lead her, this much is clear.

Therefore I am not talking about reading some books yourself, while many may had some good insights or ideas, there is no one-size fits all with these. I am talking about someone neutral such as a well-trained counselor who can guide for the clarity of understanding what is currently not understandable in a dynamic arena of an opportunity for honesty.

I think she has as many fears as he does...

I learned many things I would have not know by getting the clarity that counseling with the right counselor brought... it was not going to save my marriage, but what it did was give me a better understanding why is was what it was and in that my closure was much more effective because the suffering was left with understanding and not guessing.


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## shortbus

EmergingBuddist, I'd say our intimacy outside of the bedroom is normal for our stage of life, we kiss non sexually around the house, she always sits in her chair with her feet up and I always touch her feet when I walk by. I'm polite, we don't fight. Like I said before, if you were here, you wouldn't know anything's wrong.
I think something's wrong on her side. There was another poster here who gave a post awhile back on a different thread that really caught me. He said there's a 'root cause' for this. I agree, he said, childhood sexual assault, body image, family history, ie, taught sex was bad. She denies all these.
I said maybe she needs to get a hormonal check at her doctors and or a checkup, no, ain't going to do that.
I suggested IC for her, no, ain't going to do that.


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## Emerging Buddhist

shortbus said:


> EmergingBuddist, I'd say our intimacy outside of the bedroom is normal for our stage of life, we kiss non sexually around the house, she always sits in her chair with her feet up and I always touch her feet when I walk by. I'm polite, we don't fight. Like I said before, if you were here, you wouldn't know anything's wrong.
> I think something's wrong on her side. There was another poster here who gave a post awhile back on a different thread that really caught me. He said there's a 'root cause' for this. I agree, he said, childhood sexual assault, body image, family history, ie, taught sex was bad. She denies all these.
> I said maybe she needs to get a hormonal check at her doctors and or a checkup, no, ain't going to do that.
> I suggested IC for her, no, ain't going to do that.


Her fear is going to end her marriage... would you say outside of sex your compatibility is a 10/10?


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## sunsetmist

It is baffling to me how you can maintain feelings of connection and intimacy in a sexless marriage. Not sure that anyone would recognize your state as a positive. She is content and doesn't 'need' or 'want' to change the status quo. You, on the other hand, seem to be quietly suffering while mired in sexless misery. The inequality screams at me.


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## BluesPower

shortbus said:


> EmergingBuddist, I'd say our intimacy outside of the bedroom is normal for our stage of life, we kiss non sexually around the house, she always sits in her chair with her feet up and I always touch her feet when I walk by. I'm polite, we don't fight. Like I said before, if you were here, you wouldn't know anything's wrong.
> I think something's wrong on her side. There was another poster here who gave a post awhile back on a different thread that really caught me. He said there's a 'root cause' for this. I agree, he said, childhood sexual assault, body image, family history, ie, taught sex was bad. She denies all these.
> I said maybe she needs to get a hormonal check at her doctors and or a checkup, no, ain't going to do that.
> I suggested IC for her, no, ain't going to do that.


Look, you have tried everything you can try. You have waited too long. And, the reasons do not matter. 

Regardless, it is time to divorce, focus on that. You have suffered too long already...


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## personofinterest

I always picture someone who is emaciated with kidney shutting down from long term starvation being told....."Why don't you spend just a bit more time trying to unlock the refrigerator?"


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## shortbus

Emerging Buddist, I don't know about a 10, but probably an 8 give or take, we don't fight, and there's very little disagreement among us.


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## shortbus

Sunsetmist, I guess I have to acknowledge, I don't love her anymore. She's killed it. When I decided in '16 to divorce, I decided no, the talk and another chance. At that point I realized I didn't love her anymore but decided to 'fake it till I made it', however, nothing's changed. I've already been thru the separation and loss on my end. I was just still trying to make a go of it. I've not seen anything from her. I'm sure my feelings would have returned if I'd seen some effort, but I've not.


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## wilson

shortbus said:


> Sunsetmist, I guess I have to acknowledge, I don't love her anymore. She's killed it. When I decided in '16 to divorce, I decided no, the talk and another chance. At that point I realized I didn't love her anymore but decided to 'fake it till I made it', however, nothing's changed. I've already been thru the separation and loss on my end. I was just still trying to make a go of it. I've not seen anything from her. I'm sure my feelings would have returned if I'd seen some effort, but I've not.


I don't think it's the lack of intimacy specifically that killed your love for her. Rather, it's her unwillingness, apathy, and push back to work on the problem. I think we can all understand that desire may fade, but what is not understandable is why she treats this as a non-issue, and really more of a nuisance to be avoided. I think you would feel very differently if she had a stack of self-help books on the nightstand and was going to therapy to figure out why she didn't want intimacy. Even if the intimacy wasn't there, the fact that she demonstrated that she was motivated to fix the problem would have maintained your love. But her actions were the opposite, did not demonstrate love, and thus your love for her died.

If you do divorce, it will be because she was apathetic and resistant to fixing her problem with intimacy. It's not the lack of intimacy itself.


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## Openminded

shortbus said:


> One other thing, I'm worried about my son. Or should I say, how he'll take this. It would break my heart if this would damage our relationship. But I'm sure he'll blame me for breaking up the family. I don't know if I could take that. I don't want to put him in the middle or start a blame game between myself and the wife.
> He's 19, 2nd year of college. I don't know if I was in his shoes what that would be like to be away from home and have your parents split.


There's never a good time to tell your child that you're divorcing but the younger the better. That's the problem with waiting until children are out of high school. It won't be easy for him no matter what but few things in life are easy so either you'll have to bite the bullet and tell him or you'll have to stay as so many end up doing. I didn't want to break up my family either -- and hurt my child -- so I stayed decades longer than I should have. I don't recommend it.


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## MovingForward

You need to get out it looks like, my Divorce was forced on me but i had some of the same issues as you, good news is I am super happy and other than the occasionally time she tries to inconvenience me life is great and I am grateful she divorced me so I could find real happiness.


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## shortbus

Wilson, I'd have to say your last post was spot on. If I'd have seen any glimmer of hope, I'm sure this would be different.

Openminded, Yes, it's going to be hard to tell him, I think over Thanksgiving. Like we all know, there's no good time.

Moving Forward, Yes, I'm going to file as soon as my work schedule will allow. I need out for my own sake.

So, I guess my question going forward is this. Do I tell my son the real reason without any details? One thing that seems to be repeated in the infidelity forum is that kids, or young adults, need the real age appropriate reason. And that there may be counseling issues with one or both parents actions.


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## Kamstel

Your son’s school probably has counseling available for him.

Good luck and stay strong


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## shortbus

Thank you Kamstel.


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## jlg07

I think you could tell your son that there is no intimacy from her, no warmth, no feeling. That you are like roomates. I don't think you need to specifically say no sex. Your son should be able to figure that out from what you say, but it seems to also be a TON more lack than just no sex.


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## wilson

shortbus said:


> Wilson, I'd have to say your last post was spot on. If I'd have seen any glimmer of hope, I'm sure this would be different.


Be sure to highlight her lack of effort as the reason when you talk to her. While it may be difficult to understand why the desire for intimacy went away, it's not difficult to read books or go to therapists. She may not know why her desire went away, but she should be able to answer why she didn't even look into any ways to fix the situation which now has you on the brink of divorce.


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## BluesPower

wilson said:


> Be sure to highlight her lack of effort as the reason when you talk to her. While it may be difficult to understand why the desire for intimacy went away, it's not difficult to read books or go to therapists. She may not know why her desire went away, but she should be able to answer why she didn't even look into any ways to fix the situation which now has you on the brink of divorce.


He should not be on the brink of divorce he should have already filed. 

I can tell you why, she is not sexually attracted to him and she does not love him. There is no way that she will really be surprised when he hands her papers. 

She will act that way, but it will be a lie. She knows it is coming, she hopes he is stupid enough to be celibate, and she will lie and say she will change, but it will all be an act. 

This poor man needs to get out now and live the life he has left...


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## shortbus

jlg07, Thanks, I didn't think of that but I guess I'll frame it as roomates.

Wilson, Yes, I have it pretty much laid out what I want to say, and that she's really done nothing. And what little she's done, she quit that.

Blues Power, Yes, in hindsight, I should have filed when we were newlyweds. I just couldn't bring myself to think this was how everything was going to be. I mean who thinks they're starting down the path to a sexless marriage when you're barely out of the honeymoon. Should've been me I guess.


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## cma62

@shortbus The fact that you don’t fight or disagree anymore can be because you or both of you just don’t care enough to expel the energy to make things in your marriage right. Indifference and apathy have taken over. Huge red flag.
Although you say...if we could see you together .....you’d never know anything was wrong.... the indifference and apathy would eventually be apparent.
That’s how I knew I didn’t care anymore...I stopped trying to make things right, get my needs met and voice my grievances.....
my care and concern for the success of the marriage had dissipated, never to return


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## wilson

shortbus said:


> Yes, in hindsight, I should have filed when we were newlyweds. I just couldn't bring myself to think this was how everything was going to be. I mean who thinks they're starting down the path to a sexless marriage when you're barely out of the honeymoon. Should've been me I guess.


Marriage is one of those experiences that you have to go through it yourself to really understand it. The only reason that you can say you should have filed earlier is because you have now been through the experience. If you had filed back then, you probably would have always had doubts if you had done the right thing and if you could have worked it out. 

It sounds like your mind is made up, which is totally understandable, but consider leaving your heart open depending on how she reacts. You two have spent a lot of years together and have a lot of shared experiences. It is not certain you will get that kind of experience with someone else. Certainly you can get robust and satisfying intimacy with someone else, but it's less certain if a new relationship will be long-term or just fun in the moment. But to be realistic, even if she tries to change, there's no telling if it will last. So only give her a chance as long as she's proving to you that she's wanting to change.

If she begs you for another chance, one option is to create an official separation agreement that can transition into a divorce agreement if you decide to divorce later on. Another member here had that done. Because it's just a separation, she may be more willing for an amicable split of assets (like you keep the house). And she would likely be more motivated to keep working on the issue. But only consider that if it's an option you want. If divorce is the right choice, then definitely go with that.


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## BluesPower

First off, I understand not divorcing, lots of us have made that mistake. 

While my marriage was never sexless, I should have gotten out years ago , and that is a regret I will always have. 

That is why I look so down on the stay married at all cost folks. I used to believe that and I am sorry, I believe it is hog wash. Many will disagree. 

But those morays have hurt more people than your can imagine, including me. 

We should understand what happiness is and work toward that. 

And to that last poster, why would anyone encourage this man to even think about giving her a second chance? If she loved him, if she was attracted to him, if she cared about him, he would not be here in the first place...


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

shortbus said:


> Yes, in hindsight, I should have filed when we were newlyweds. I just couldn't bring myself to think this was how everything was going to be. I mean who thinks they're starting down the path to a sexless marriage when you're barely out of the honeymoon. Should've been me I guess.


That was then, you have 29 years of what was good enough to be an 8 +/- out of 10 in the now.

I read you fell out of love with her 2 years ago because she was not capable of meeting your physical need while it seems she was meeting many other of your needs adequately enough to rate the scale as you did.

What you have here is choice, and you did choose to fall out of love over this.

This is a serious decision, the choice to fall out of love.

I get the "you don't want what you cannot have" feeling, spent many years studying truths of why and how suffering affects life... in many forms it is called "letting go" but the reasons behind it vary so much between what is mindful, and unmindful.

I have many friends, at this age we, who are fighting all those things that happen to us in the mid-late 50's, health issues, natural changes, aging stressors that impact how and how often we express our love on the physical side. All things change and in time, they will change for you too and you do not know when or how that will come.

Intimacy comes in many ways, in many forms, yet we often pin it to one physical act that can be so hit or miss. I am not dismissing sex in the slightest, I know and love the closeness it can bring but I also know that it should not the end all or be all after a lifetime of sharing.

If she were horrible to you (some may say not sharing sex falls into this category, but without knowing her fears I will not judge, and even then be hesitant), was mean in spirit and tongue with actions that caused serious question I would offer a different thought, but as it is by your words she doesn't... so considerations are present.

I think you have so much more worth falling back in love over... think about a different way of sharing your concerns of why it is important for you both to face her fears together.

I am sure she feels quite alone where she is.


----------



## wilson

BluesPower said:


> And to that last poster, why would anyone encourage this man to even think about giving her a second chance? If she loved him, if she was attracted to him, if she cared about him, he would not be here in the first place...


In this case, it's because they have nearly 3 decades together and have a child. Sex and intimacy is just one part of the relationship. It's true that it's a very big part, but it's just one part that makes up a marriage. And in her case, it doesn't seem to matter all that much.

I believe she does love him in her own way. Just like there are many other people in our lives that we love, but we often prioritize our own needs and desires above those others. It doesn't mean we don't love them. I think that's the case here. However, it may mean that the OP and his W have incompatible concepts of love.

If they didn't have a child, I would think divorce is 100% the answer. But they do, and his life is going to be changed in a significant way. I'm sure he thinks his future will be that his mom and dad are together forever and they do holidays and vacations together. Divorce changes all that. True, he'll get over it, but I think that it's only fair to him to not close the door completely if she really can change for the better.

Obviously, this is a very personal decision. Sex and intimacy has different importance to different people. Some men will consider leaving their family and young children just because it's been a few months without sex. Others will stick it out until the kids are out of school (or even longer). And then there's always the "grass is greener" effect. It's easy to think you'll hop right into a great relationship, but that's not always the case. So given the length of their relationship and that they have a kid, I think if she had a change of heart, there's a possibility they could work it out.


----------



## DjDjani

Well,you dont have to divorce her. You can spend a lot less money and she can get hit by a drunk driver od stabbed in a robbery gone bad. And you get her life insurance. Win win situation. Just kidding. Let me tell you something. There is no price on human happiness. Life will go on if you divorce,only wou will be happy then. I would do it in a heart beat.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Emerging Buddhist said:


> What you have here is choice, and you did choose to fall out of love over this.
> 
> This is a serious decision, the choice to fall out of love.


I disagree with this logic. Falling out of love isn't a choice. Who would choose that?? It happens over time when our needs are consistently ignored and not met. This disrespect and feeling of non priority eventually smothers out our love. 




Emerging Buddhist said:


> I am sure she feels quite alone where she is.


Disagree here as well. She is hunky dory. Life is going the way that SHE wants it to, hence the status quo day in and day out. She is living as she wishes, and his dissatisfaction is just a mild annoyance to her now and then. She makes an empty promise and he gets out of her hair for a while, and she goes right on with her days.


----------



## oldshirt

shortbus said:


> One other thing, I'm worried about my son. Or should I say, how he'll take this. It would break my heart if this would damage our relationship. But I'm sure he'll blame me for breaking up the family. I don't know if I could take that. I don't want to put him in the middle or start a blame game between myself and the wife.
> He's 19, 2nd year of college. I don't know if I was in his shoes what that would be like to be away from home and have your parents split.


I'm just starting to read this thread and haven't read the 5 pages of responses but I am going to jump in and call BS on this above. 

Your son is a young adult in college and not a young child being passed back and forth in the Target parking lot on weekends. 

He is likely a horny young man himself and would understand perfectly well the need to free yourself from a lifetime of involuntary celibacy. 

Don't blame a young adult for your lack of taking action for yourself.


----------



## oldshirt

wilson said:


> In this case, it's because they have nearly 3 decades together and have a child.
> 
> If they didn't have a child, I would think divorce is 100% the answer. But they do, and his life is going to be changed in a significant way. .


You realize their "child" is a 19 year old college sophomore right?

He is a young adult (who likely has a sex life of his own) and not some child who needs hands on care by two parents under one roof. 

Yes, he will be inconvenienced over the holidays over who's Thanksgiving dinner to attend at noon on Thanksgiving, but other than that, his parent's personal life is really none of his business.


----------



## BluesPower

Emerging Buddhist said:


> That was then, you have 29 years of what was good enough to be an 8 +/- out of 10 in the now.
> 
> I read you fell out of love with her 2 years ago because she was not capable of meeting your physical need while it seems she was meeting many other of your needs adequately enough to rate the scale as you did.
> 
> What you have here is choice, and you did choose to fall out of love over this.
> 
> This is a serious decision, the choice to fall out of love.
> 
> I get the "you don't want what you cannot have" feeling, spent many years studying truths of why and how suffering affects life... in many forms it is called "letting go" but the reasons behind it vary so much between what is mindful, and unmindful.
> 
> I have many friends, at this age we, who are fighting all those things that happen to us in the mid-late 50's, health issues, natural changes, aging stressors that impact how and how often we express our love on the physical side. All things change and in time, they will change for you too and you do not know when or how that will come.
> 
> Intimacy comes in many ways, in many forms, yet we often pin it to one physical act that can be so hit or miss. I am not dismissing sex in the slightest, I know and love the closeness it can bring but I also know that it should not the end all or be all after a lifetime of sharing.
> 
> If she were horrible to you (some may say not sharing sex falls into this category, but without knowing her fears I will not judge, and even then be hesitant), was mean in spirit and tongue with actions that caused serious question I would offer a different thought, but as it is by your words she doesn't... so considerations are present.
> 
> I think you have so much more worth falling back in love over... think about a different way of sharing your concerns of why it is important for you both to face her fears together.
> 
> I am sure she feels quite alone where she is.


While I think what you wrote is comforting, thoughtful, and a whole bunch of adjectives. 

What I don't understand from you, and several others, is why your posts sound encouraging for him to stay with his wife. 

Do you not think that sexually intimacy is part of a loving, happy relationship? 

This man has devoted his life to a woman that does not think enough of him to work on HER issues, and try to meet his physical needs. 

I understand that sex is not everything, but good god, it is SOMETHING. 

Why would anyone encourage a man to suffer any more than her already has. Why is that. 

He has been a good husband, a good provider, a good father, and his wife, for what ever reason will not have sex with him. 

Guys, help me understand your reasoning???


----------



## wilson

BluesPower said:


> Why would anyone encourage a man to suffer any more than her already has. Why is that.
> 
> He has been a good husband, a good provider, a good father, and his wife, for what ever reason will not have sex with him.
> 
> Guys, help me understand your reasoning???


No one is advocating for staying in a sexless marriage. With grown kids, there is not that parental responsibility that would override his own needs. But they have built a life together that seems like it was enjoyable even if something was missing. If she really could turn things around, and assuming that he can forgive the past, they could end up having a long and happy marriage. 

He'll know right away if she's willing to try. If her reaction is to understand and take steps to fix it, then there's a possibility. But if she blames him for her lack of desire, it's over. And there are no more chances at this point, so he won't waste 29 years waiting.

And part of it is thinking about the reality post-divorce. If you are the social type who likes meeting people and the dating scene, then being single could be a fun experience in itself. But if you're not looking for casual encounters and want something more long-term, that's going to be harder. People come with a lot more baggage later in life. There are step-kids and a whole new set of in-laws to get used to. It could be that fixing the existing relationship leads to more happiness rather than trying to start new.

But the absolute going forward is to have a robust and enjoyable intimacy. If that can be done with the W, then it may be worth considering. But if not, then someone new is the only option.


----------



## Affaircare

BluesPower said:


> He has been a good husband, a good provider, a good father, and his wife, for what ever reason will not have sex with him.
> 
> Guys, help me understand your reasoning???


You know, I don't think it is our place to tell a person to divorce or not divorce--we are not in their home, behind closed doors, or in their skin. Thus I can't speak for @Emerging Buddhist, but I can speak for myself in that I wouldn't recommend either staying or going...that's up to @shortbus to decide knowing all the facts, knowing himself, and knowing her. 

HOWEVER, what I can say is that by his own admission she is an 8 of 10. That would suggest she's been at least a fairly good wife, a good partner, and a good mother over the course of several decades...with the exception of participating in sex as often as @shortbus would prefer it. If all else in their relationship is 8 of 10, that is very darn good! She's a decent person...maybe even a good friend and companion. They get along about money, politics, religion, and running a home. The ONE area they have had a consistent disagreement about is "how often to have sex."

Therefore, since all else seems pretty compatible, it seems like at least one option would be to consider the question "Why?" before abandoning all that's been built and dreamt. At 50-something is it worth it to go through divorce for a year or two, and once it's all finalized to find a nice 30 or 40-something lady...only to find that the next year there is a health issue that results in impotence? What about 8 of 10 compatibility then? Will the mid-30's lady stick around for a guy who can't give her sex--because according to the logic on this very thread, the answer would be NOOOOOPE. 

So all we're saying is to be wise and really think through what is going on here and why. Why is she 8 of 10 on everything else but so stuck in this one area? She refuses counseling...why? She won't address it or change...why? What is it about sex that scares her so much? Is it "sex in general"? Is it sex with @shortbus ? Is there an issue here that could be addressed or changed by either one of them (or both) that would be realistic and achievable and make both feel okay about this? Is there someone they both trust who could be a mentor? 

Also it's not like his wife is the only human in the marriage who can change--he can too! If we assume he is the model husband (and let's be honest, most of us have one or two things we could work on to be better people), that doesn't mean he couldn't purposely CHOOSE to do something different. Let's say as an example that he looks at the man in the mirror and thinks "Well...I guess I could work on myself and interrupt her less often" that doesn't mean that his interruption JUSTIFIES her lack of sex, but hey you still have to work on what you have to work on! So there are many choices that could be made--some wise, some not-so-wise--and every one of them is not: divorce her. 

Even though I haven't written myself yet, my hope would be to maybe expand the options @shortbus has and encourage him to think. Seriously, if his wife had been a 2 or 3, it's a toxic mismatch...but since she is an 8 in all other aspects, wow! It may be worth considering what is going on and why and how to address whatever it is that's going on!


----------



## BluesPower

wilson said:


> No one is advocating for staying in a sexless marriage. With grown kids, there is not that parental responsibility that would override his own needs. But they have built a life together that seems like it was enjoyable even if something was missing. If she really could turn things around, and assuming that he can forgive the past, they could end up having a long and happy marriage.
> 
> He'll know right away if she's willing to try. If her reaction is to understand and take steps to fix it, then there's a possibility. But if she blames him for her lack of desire, it's over. And there are no more chances at this point, so he won't waste 29 years waiting.
> 
> And part of it is thinking about the reality post-divorce. If you are the social type who likes meeting people and the dating scene, then being single could be a fun experience in itself. But if you're not looking for casual encounters and want something more long-term, that's going to be harder. People come with a lot more baggage later in life. There are step-kids and a whole new set of in-laws to get used to. It could be that fixing the existing relationship leads to more happiness rather than trying to start new.
> 
> But the absolute going forward is to have a robust and enjoyable intimacy. If that can be done with the W, then it may be worth considering. But if not, then someone new is the only option.


I get what you are saying, however, Shortbus has already related his wife crying to him saying that she does not understand why she does not want to have sex. 

And, I hesitate to say that his marriage has been otherwise happy. He has been dealing with this for what 20 or 30 years?????

I mean guys, there is no coming back from that. She could be a sex kitten from now to the end of his life and she would not be able to make up for that. 

Really, she could give him a blow job at breakfast, lunch and dinner and there is not way that she will make up for the last few decades. 

So what I am saying is this. I am sorry that she has issues, but let this man divorce her in clear conscious and find a woman that want to have sex with him. 

I understand that we all would like for long term marriages to work out. But I think we are encouraging a man to say in some form of suffering. 

Guys, I just think that is wrong...


----------



## oldshirt

Let's assume they are both good decent people are are both good parents and have met the textbook definition of good spouses.

And let's also assume they are good friends and care for one another and treat each other with respect and compassion.

....they just don't click in bed and they do not have a romantic/sexual compatibility.

Now I get why people are wanting them to "work on it" and we all love a good marital counseling story that has a happy ending.

Maybe his toenails are gross and that turns her off and if he fixes his toenails she jump him like a she-lion every day till they both die if heart attacks in the middle of a mutual orgasm. 

But it's been 29 years and she is resentful and angry if he tries to address it.

There is nothing here that she doesn't "understand."

She doesn't desire him and does not wish to do any heavy lifting to resolve that issue. She is happy and content with the status quo and wishes he would forgo his want for sex and has even wished he get it elsewhere.

So why not get it elsewhere? Why not get it elsewhere as a single, divorced man who can do whatever he wants or remain married and get it on the side from either some kind of GF, FWB or a professional provider? 

If his values and mores are such he'd rather do that divorced, then so be it. 

The point I want to make here though is if they get along so well and are such good friends and coparents, will D really change any of that?

Their child is an adult. They have finances and assets that will get divided equally so no one is going to starve in the cold ( he thinks he will, but he won't)

They're mature adults and can live and breathe however they want.

If he wants to live out his days with an intact sex life, that is his right to pursue.

If she wants to live out her days in celibacy, that is also her right. 

As far as I'm concerned they can each do and live as they want - but they don't have to do it together.

No animals will be harmed in these two living their own lives as they each see fit. 

Whether they do it remaining legally married or divorced is not going to disrupt the cosmos either way


----------



## oldshirt

BluesPower said:


> And, I hesitate to say that his marriage has been otherwise happy. He has been dealing with this for what 20 or 30 years?????
> 
> 
> I understand that we all would like for long term marriages to work out. But I think we are encouraging a man to say in some form of suffering.
> 
> Guys, I just think that is wrong...


I think there is something inside all of us that makes us think when relates to us all of the things they are dissatisfied with in their marriage that causes us to somehow believe they woke up unhappy last Tuesday. 

It is a knee-jerk reaction to ask "...have you talked to him/her about it...?" Or "...have you tried counseling?" Etc etc

Since we first read this thread last Thursday, it is a bit hard for people to grasp this has been going on year after year after year since Clinton was in office.


----------



## oldshirt

oldshirt said:


> The point I want to make here though is if they get along so well and are such good friends and coparents, will D really change any of that?


Where I was going with this is they are already just friends, roommates and coparents - will that actually change any if they divorce or if he takes a lover on the side??

If they get along so well other than the sexual issue and since she does not want a sex life with him anyway, then whether they cooperatively divorce or whether he gets it elsewhere shouldn't really matter. 

If they get along fine in other matters, they can probably work out a fair and ammicable divorce and remain friendly and effective coparents and friends.

Additionally, they could probably cooperatively work out some kind of open marriage or some kind if "don't ask/don't tell" arrangement as well. 

There is no reason he should be forced into suffering a life of involuntary celibacy and neither should she be pressured into having some big, hairy dude climbing on her if she doesn't want it.

These are full grown adults with an adult child and money in the bank. They can work out where to go from here.


----------



## oldshirt

shortbus said:


> I've not read MMSLP, I considered it, read reviews and excerpts from it, but I don't think it's going to help with an uninterested pre/menopausal woman.
> .


I highly, highly urge you to read MMSLP thoroughly and really absorb it's message and techniques.

You are probably right that it will not turn around your wife at this stage of the game (and Athol Kay himself says that many times it will not fix things with the CURRENT partner)

but it could have a major impact on how quickly and efficiently you move to your next and it could greatly impact the level of attraction and interaction that your next GF has towards you.

And just as importantly, it can impact how you deal with the inevitable decline in passion that your next relationship(s) will have as time goes on.

Like NMMNG, MMSLP will open your eyes to some of the pitfalls and issues you have had in your past and help you avoid or at least lessen them going forward into the future.


----------



## sunsetmist

shortbus said:


> Emerging Buddist, I don't know about a 10, but probably an 8 give or take, we don't fight, and there's very little disagreement among us.


I'm wondering how this can be judged when there is nothing with which to compare it?
@shortbus sounds 'stuck' to me.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

3Xnocharm said:


> I disagree with this logic. Falling out of love isn't a choice. Who would choose that?? It happens over time when our needs are consistently ignored and not met. This disrespect and feeling of non priority eventually smothers out our love.


Choosing to single out one desire and putting everything felt into one action while ignoring the many others is choice, each of us chooses how the balance weighs of course. If one thinks they do not have control their desires then they are saying their desires control them and they have no choice to their behaviors, is that really where one places themselves?

Disrespectful for not sharing physical intimacy?

We do not even know why his wife holds back this feeling for 29 years yet we are ready to tell her how ill-behaved and insubordinate she is (isn't this what disrespect is?) from what stems from her reasons still unknown? 

Why choose now to end the relationship? Why not have ended it in year 2, 5, 7, 10?

Yes, choices... we all have them in and out of love.

I fell out of love with my ex because the fighting was too much... when I chose to quit fighting the same way I had for over a decade (almost 2 in fact), I found that even as she had not changed, I had and in that could see past the anger and discontent of my own pride to see more of the woman I had loved earlier, enough to make the effort to see and understand clearly a transition point of where love ends and begins.

Even if in the end it was not successful, how I looked at it mostly began with me.

Choice.




3Xnocharm said:


> Disagree here as well. She is hunky dory. Life is going the way that SHE wants it to, hence the status quo day in and day out. She is living as she wishes, and his dissatisfaction is just a mild annoyance to her now and then. She makes an empty promise and he gets out of her hair for a while, and she goes right on with her days.


Is she?

Perhaps she is as manipulative as projected by some, but I would think if this true then there would be resentment of a different order from our OP.

I think from what I've be able to understand in his postings is that he has been treated quite well minus the stated expectation that sex be critical to his loving her.

Would he be offered the same compassion (or ultimatum) if he was the one dealing with low desire or an emotional hurdle yet unknown?

Love to hear the OP's thoughts on this.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

BluesPower said:


> While I think what you wrote is comforting, thoughtful, and a whole bunch of adjectives.
> 
> What I don't understand from you, and several others, is why your posts sound encouraging for him to stay with his wife.
> 
> Do you not think that sexually intimacy is part of a loving, happy relationship?
> 
> This man has devoted his life to a woman that does not think enough of him to work on HER issues, and try to meet his physical needs.
> 
> I understand that sex is not everything, but good god, it is SOMETHING.
> 
> Why would anyone encourage a man to suffer any more than her already has. Why is that.
> 
> He has been a good husband, a good provider, a good father, and his wife, for what ever reason will not have sex with him.
> 
> Guys, help me understand your reasoning???


You will see what you wish, and I am encouraging him to look at this from compassion and make sure his choices are in fact the best for all as he is far the only impacted in this decision. While offering a balance, I do not believe I have told him to stay or go, just know without a shadow of a doubt why he is choosing such a path either way and where it roots. I encourage him to free himself from his suffering, I am just not convinced it will be long-lived if not done with understanding.

You have offered one perspective, I another.

Intimacy is critical to a loving relationship, sexual intimacy is but a component of such... and it is a trailing indicator of the first if you think about it.

Without the first, the second is far less satisfying.

There is little mention of her devotion although I am sure it is there in many ways... and there is little compassion for understanding why she struggles in her physical intimacy. Sex is something, for some it is everything... for others, not so much where there are other necessary connections that have priority.

I don't know any more than the rest how frequent it was brought up, many might look at his wife's comment of "she wished I'd get a girlfriend and leave her alone" as a frustrated and desperate reaction to what could have felt to her as constant badgering, not "I don't love you".

Yes, she is responsible for her communications, she is responsible for her looking deeper and sharing what disconnections are in the way, she is responsible for many things.

She doesn't stand alone though... she compassionately deserves to understand why this is such a deal-breaker after 29 years and an 8/10 in all other aspects of the relationship.

Then she compassionately deserves half, without argument, of what's left.

I doubt seriously she will think of it as cash and prizes...


----------



## oldshirt

Emerging Buddhist said:


> She doesn't stand alone though... she compassionately deserves to understand why this is such a deal-breaker after 29 years and an 8/10 in all other aspects of the relationship.
> 
> ...




That can be taken care of with the statement below. 

Shortbus - "I want to have an active and healthy love and sex life with someone who desires me and wants to be with me."


----------



## shortbus

Jees, miss a few days around here and the whole place goes to pot.

First off, I apologize to all that I can't go back and comment or answer each post. Having said that, I want to thank everybody for their input.

So, I calmly sat her down Sunday morning and I went thru my talk best I could.

I explained yet again where I was 2 years ago. And that I was going to file then and didn't.

I explained that last year I was going to file, that I hadn't seen any change but still didn't file.

So I said I'm at the end of my rope, I've done all I can or seem to be able, and that in all reality, there's nothing I can really do. So, I asked her to admit that she's really done nothing, she did.

So I said, I can't really go on like this, I'm going to file this week. She sat there quietly, not much for tears. I explained a little about how the process works and that I'd seen a lawyer. 
That he expressed that we should be able to work out the particulars. I told her that I'm going to give her a fair settlement and she can get a lawyer and fight, but in the end, what I'm going to give her, she wasn't going to do any better than that.

There was no begging or anything from her, she said she was sorry.

So last night I said 'you ok'. She said she was floored, didn't see that coming in a million years. (I think this just goes to show everything's fine by her).

I said I noted there wasn't a counter offer.

So, we eat in silence tonight. Then she asks me to sit at the table and talk, I told her she has the floor.

She said yesterday was the worst day for her, and she's not over it, but realizes she's going to be ok. That she doesn't want to see me unhappy.

So I said let me make myself perfectly clear. I heard no counter offer from you. Just so we understand each other, and I laid out what I'd previously said, that it had been over 2 years and I don't see anything from you. You haven't done anything. I'm at the end of my rope. I just want to be happy. I'll be single, celibate and happy, I'm not going to be married and celibate. I told her I didn't want to get divorced, but that's my way out. I'd rather be happily married, but I will not live in our marriage like it is, will. not. happen.

She said she doesn't understand, she thinks we're fine. And then we get it, 'I just don't think about it'. When I come home from work and say I'm tired, it's not that I'm rejecting you, I just never think about it. It's more important to you than me, I just don't think about it.

As I've said before in other posts, she enjoys sex when she has it. It's never one sided. But I just can't get the stars in line and all the locks picked.

So I yet again explained to her that I 'need' physical intimacy from her, it's not just sex, it's a connection and how I give and receive love from her. We talked about the 5 love languages book real quick and I told her, 'sure that other stuff is nice, but when the rubber meets the road, I could care less about it'.

I can cook my own meals, do my own laundry. It's nice you do stuff for me, but I need to make love to you. And once every 10 days to 2 weeks doesn't do anything but make me resentful.

She sat there in silence, so I said, just be completely honest with yourself and me. If you can't stand me, can't love me as a partner, fine, but let's be completely honest and we'll go from there. But understand, I take no further blame in this, this rests with you. So If we're to stay married it's in an intimate relationship. And if we get divorced, it's on you.

So, as I write this, it looks like one more bite of the apple. We are going to have sex twice a week going forward, my advances won't be rejected, and if this doesn't work, I'll file. She knows exactly where she and I both stand.

By the way, I know I was a doormat and a weak man earlier in our marriage. I told her that also, I said Sunday and again tonight, if I was the man then that I am now, I'd have divorced her when we were newlyweds.

So, I just want to thank everybody for all the support. But at this point, I'd kind of consider this thread closed.

If I start another thread, it'll be in the going thru divorce forum, and you'll know where the starting point was.

Thanks all.


----------



## BigDigg

Shortbus...best of luck to you and will be watching for your new thread. You seem like a good guy and always pulling for those who want a better life.

If I'm honest though I'm surprised that you are giving this one another chance. Your marriage and family and decision of course. But this divorce conversation seemed pretty one-sided and weak and you looked like you were fishing for her to beg for you back. That definitely didn't happen. As it is it sounds very wishy washy and contrived. So she's "agreed" to be a lifeless sex doll for you 2x a week - but is that what you really want? There is a saying "you can't negotiate desire" and it's so true. What you did was basically a high-stakes negotiation...not a break through. And by fishing and bending so easily it just comes off as weakness. Whatever you choose going forward be decisive and own it. 

I'd say trust your gut instinct on this one. If you want someone that really loves and desires you *how you want*, I fear it won't be this one. And there is a real cost - every day invested in a losing proposition is wasted and can never come back. You've wasted enough years trying to squeeze this stone. There's someone out there that will love you how you want without a negotiated fake intimacy schedule. 

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## wilson

Hopefully the future works out for you both. And if it doesn't, you sound like you're in a good place. Whichever path you end up on will be the right one, because you're taking control now. You'll stay if you want to stay, and you'll leave if you want to leave. 

One suggestion I would make is to have the 2x per week be on consistent days (e.g. Wed and Sun). This can help her get in the right mindset for that day rather than wondering if today will be the day. Also, try to appreciate the effort she is making, whatever that is. Especially at first, she's probably feeling a lot of pressure about this all now.

One way to start things on the right path is to book a weekend at a nearby resort. Go someplace where there are lots of low-key things like hiking, lounging around the pool, listening to music, etc. Stuff where you can just be together and have easy conversations. Don't have a lot of heavy relationship talk. Don't make things overtly sexual, since she's probably not in that place right now. Make it a nice, sweet weekend and she'll likely be able to enjoy intimacy more easily.

I think it's a good idea to step away from the forum for a while. There are a lot of voices here with different opinions. Sometimes that can make your thoughts more cloudy and lead to overthinking. You know what you want to see in your relationship and she knows as well. You'll know if things are on track. Best of luck!


----------



## 3Xnocharm

BigDigg said:


> Shortbus...best of luck to you and will be watching for your new thread. You seem like a good guy and always pulling for those who want a better life.
> 
> If I'm honest though I'm surprised that you are giving this one another chance. Your marriage and family and decision of course. But this divorce conversation seemed pretty one-sided and weak and you looked like you were fishing for her to beg for you back. That definitely didn't happen.* As it is it sounds very wishy washy and contrived. So she's "agreed" to be a lifeless sex doll for you 2x a week - but is that what you really want? There is a saying "you can't negotiate desire" and it's so true. What you did was basically a high-stakes negotiation...not a break through. And by fishing and bending so easily it just comes off as weakness. Whatever you choose going forward be decisive and own it. *
> 
> I'd say trust your gut instinct on this one. If you want someone that really loves and desires you *how you want*, I fear it won't be this one. And there is a real cost - every day invested in a losing proposition is wasted and can never come back. You've wasted enough years trying to squeeze this stone. There's someone out there that will love you how you want without a negotiated fake intimacy schedule.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


Yes, *THIS*…

Wishing you the best, SB.


----------



## oldshirt

BigDigg said:


> So she's "agreed" to be a lifeless sex doll for you 2x a week - but is that what you really want? There is a saying "you can't negotiate desire" and it's so true. What you did was basically a high-stakes negotiation...not a break through. .



This is how I see it as well. 

I think you have just bought yourself a few weeks or months of coerced starfish sex along with a very high likelyhood of backsliding back into status quo. 

The issue that I see here is that you've basically used terrorist tactics to negotiate using her body to masturbate with a couple times a week. It was basically, "spread your legs 2 x/week or pack your bags." There's nothing in this for her and nothing that you discussed addressed whether there is something she is needing flourish her desire. She basically has the options of don't say no on Tues and Sat nights or move to an apartment as a divorced throw-away. 

I'm not really seeing the intimacy that you yearn for in that. 

My concern here is that by not addressing any of the underlying issues and conditions, all you have really done here is coerced some starfish, mercy sex for a few weeks and the resentment will grow. It's just going to be a matter of weeks before she can come up with new excuses such as migraines and gastric upset and sick relatives and leaky fawcets that interfer with her actually fulfilling this weekly sex obligation.

You've won the battle to have sex this Thurs but you'll lose the war.


----------



## BigDigg

@oldshirt THIS...all of this. What these guys don't get is that it's always been about respect first and foremost and then attraction. This lady hasn't respected this guy for decades basically and it's a marriage of convenience to her. She punts and defers and plays dumb to keep the peace. When pressed she tells him to get a girlfriend 'to leave her alone'. Basically it's suspect that she was ever attracted to him to begin with and sex with him probably makes her skin crawl judging by how she talks to him. And he's tolerated it for decades. And she knows he'll tolerate it some more because basically he always has and she doesn't think much of him or care if he's happy or not.

So here he comes and gets just an ounce of courage and remembers his balls and self worth for a minute, but then hems and haws awkwardly about divorce while at the same time basically begging her to love him and leaving every out. And she's not phased and doesn't care and calls his bluff. Then she remembers that she can just easily stomp on his balls and make this go away. _And she respects him even less now._ So she takes a boot to his balls, promising some serious skin crawling negotiated sex that will probably suck and last about 2 weeks before he's distracted and properly emasculated again. And here he is dying of thirst in this desert she's dropped him in and desperately grabs the the cup of sand she's given him and he starts to chug it down... 

OP - something to think about - you're 57 and still have some of the best years of your life left. Trust me. I promise you that if you were properly motivated in just *1 year* (only 12 short months!) you can be 1) in the best shape of your life and feeling great 2) living alone chasing every personal passion you have 3) dating someone who loves you completely for you are and that wants to be with you. Or you can be back here on TAM to vent about your cold cruel wife and life. 

There is no such thing as a soulmate, and even if there was your wife wouldn't qualify. As Andy Dufresne once said "get busy living or get busy dying". Make a mental picture of the kind of man you want to be and life you want to live. Now go be that man and live that life. There is literally nothing stopping you except your confidence and will power.


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## BluesPower

oldshirt said:


> This is how I see it as well.
> 
> I think you have just bought yourself a few weeks or months of coerced starfish sex along with a very high likelyhood of backsliding back into status quo.
> 
> The issue that I see here is that you've basically used terrorist tactics to negotiate using her body to masturbate with a couple times a week. It was basically, "spread your legs 2 x/week or pack your bags." There's nothing in this for her and nothing that you discussed addressed whether there is something she is needing flourish her desire. She basically has the options of don't say no on Tues and Sat nights or move to an apartment as a divorced throw-away.
> 
> I'm not really seeing the intimacy that you yearn for in that.
> 
> My concern here is that by not addressing any of the underlying issues and conditions, all you have really done here is coerced some starfish, mercy sex for a few weeks and the resentment will grow. It's just going to be a matter of weeks before she can come up with excuses such as migraines and gastric upset and sick relatives and leaky fawcets that interfer with her actually fulfilling this weekly sex obligation.
> 
> You've won the battle to have sex this Thurs but you'll lose the war.


This is exactly right. What has happened to the REAL MEN in this world. 

The starfish twice a week... just makes me want to puke.


----------



## wilson

BluesPower said:


> This is exactly right. What has happened to the REAL MEN in this world.
> 
> The starfish twice a week... just makes me want to puke.


I know you mean well, but when you dish out advice like a slap in the face, it's not going to be received as helpful advice and may end up having the reverse effect you intended.


----------



## oldshirt

Another potential issue here is Short may not have any concept of what starfish sex is or the toxicity it can have on a marriage.

For some of the guys that pop up here, any sex AT ALL is seen as a major victory.

Some may even see Short as living the high life because it sounds as if they having some form of contact at least monthly. 

I didn't get the impression that Short was feeling like he won any kind of major victory and he seemed at least somewhat skeptical that this would be happily ever after, But the way he seemed to word it was "sex 2/week or else......" And she's basically calling his bluff on the 'or else.' 

It's easy to say 'FINE!' and say you'll put out a couple times a week. It will be a whole different matter when it comes time for both of them to pay the piper.

He set himself up. He said he needed sex 2/week to stay married. She said "FINE!" (And we all know what "FINE!" means :-O )

Now he has to uphold his end of the deal and stay. 

And all she has to do is grit her teeth and count the dust spots on the ceiling for awhile and they'll be back to square-one in a couple weeks.

Neither one is actually doing any heavy lifting, taking risks or addressing the underlying issues.

He's not afraid of starfish sex because he's a dying man starving for anything resembling intimacy.

He's like the baby monkey clinging onto the wire replica of a mommy monkey.


----------



## shortbus

Tough crowd, so here's the deal. She's got some heavy lifting to do, she's either sincere or not. She's going to make an effort or not. I'm giving her an honest chance, but there isn't some long time period. I'll either know or not in a short amount of time where this is going.

And I'll act accordingly.

There was no hem hawing or awkwardness from me Sunday morning. Certainly no begging.

It's not been starfish anyway.

So she gets her shot. Doesn't work out, I'll be in the other forum.


----------



## BluesPower

wilson said:


> I know you mean well, but when you dish out advice like a slap in the face, it's not going to be received as helpful advice and may end up having the reverse effect you intended.


I completely disagree. You are welcome to disagree. He knows he has been a weak man, he said so himself. 

What he did not really say is how much he hates himself for it, and we all know that he does. 

I hope one day he finds himself, and actually understands what is doing on. 

And yes, I am ashamed of the a lot of the male population for being this way.

You are of course welcome to your own opinion...


----------



## oldshirt

shortbus said:


> Tough crowd, so here's the deal. She's got some heavy lifting to do, she's either sincere or not. She's going to make an effort or not. I'm giving her an honest chance, but there isn't some long time period. I'll either know or not in a short amount of time where this is going.
> 
> And I'll act accordingly.
> 
> .



Ok so honest question..... What does her making sincere effort and doing heavy lifting mean to you and what will it look like?

What do mean in regards to her making effort? What does the effort need to be for you to stay?


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## Elizabeth001

Sometimes we need a slap in the face, eh? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## shortbus

Old shirt, I expect a positive attitude. I expect an increase in frequency. I expect it to not feel forced. I expect it to be sincere. I expect not to be rejected without a counter offer.


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## Marc878

On the bright side in 10 more years or so you'll lose your libido and you'll be fine.

Keep procrastinating you'll get there.


----------



## oldshirt

While I get where you are coming from, some of these things arent going to be possible to quantify.

I'll be more specific in bold below -




shortbus said:


> - I expect a positive attitude.
> 
> *how can you quantify someone else's attitude?
> And by 'attitude' what I assume you really mean is that she has innate desire and actual attraction and passion and sincere enthusiasm etc etc. the problem is she cannot self-generate those things even if she wanted to and you cannot measure or verify them so you won't really have any yardstick to measure whether she is being compliant or not.*
> 
> 
> I expect an increase in frequency.
> 
> *ok that one is easy to measure and verify. But it does not take into account quality or level of enthusiasm or engagement. A hooker can put out 2x/week if you pay her to; but is it really the act of putting your penis into her vagina that you yearn for or is it her desire and passion for you that you really want?*
> 
> I expect it to not feel forced.
> 
> *it may not be 'forced' in the technical sense, but it is coerced. She is under the threat if divorce to put out when she doesn't want to, so expecting it to not feel forced is not all that realistic. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I expect it to be sincere.
> 
> *see above. It she had sincer desire and passion and affection etc, she'd already be doing it. Again that is not something she can just pull out if her own hat and not something you can measure or verify. *
> 
> I expect not to be rejected without a counter offer.
> 
> *I get where you are coming from here as well, but it is a toughy. I think you are so used to rejection you can't see the forest for the trees.
> IMHO you've backed her into the corner enough that any counter offer she may propose won't be good enough. I'm having visions of The Godfather making someone an offer they can't refuse. *


IMHO I think you're kind of setting both of you up for failure with this ultimatum.

You are essentially demanding that she love and desire you and want to have sex with you and you've put her on probation with the threat if divorce unless she complies and feels it.

The problem is threats and ultimatums and probationary periods and report cards and quarterly evaluations are not sexy and are not arousing and do not foster connection and unity. 

It's basically marital terrorism. 

It's like telling a fat person to get buff and hot "Or Else."

Cont.....


----------



## oldshirt

Where I think this is a set up for failure is you've used the ultimatum to coerce an end goal of her desiring and wanting you sexually and expressing that enthusiastically. 

But you can't force someone else's feelings or desires or attitudes.

Now when people are truly at the end of their rope ultimatums and Options A vs Option B have their place. 

But you ultimate them to feel something that they don't.

But the realization that the end may be near might motivate them to take your needs seriously and may motivate them to explore and address the issues and engage in meaningful dialogue and perhaps MC an therapy etc to see if there is something blocking or hampering their desire and attraction etc. 

And sometimes people just get lazy and complacent and take their position in life for granted. Sometimes a sharp reality check can wake them up and realize there's a serious issue that needs to be addressed.

Cont...


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## oldshirt

IMHO you cannot really use her feelings and attitudes as your measuring stick on whether she is putting in any heavy lifting or not.

Otherwise all she has to do is drop her drawers and watch the ceiling on Tuesdays and Fridays and technically you are having sex x 2/week. 

And here you'll be in 2 more years moaning and groaning about how your sex life sucks.

If you better want to see if she's sincere and putting in effort, make it tangible, observable things that are part of the process of discovering and eliminating the roadblocks and issues and doing things that develop and nourish desire.

Things like sitting down and actually addressing what may be killing her desire which can be things like medication, health issues, stress, your appearance or weight or your techniques, relationship issues etc.

MC or sex therapy may be necessary.

And things like date nights, trips together, shared hobbies and activities etc

Those things are observable, measurable and verifiable. If she ain't doing those, you know she ain't doing them.


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## Elizabeth001

@oldshirt...once again, you nailed it. Mad props!


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## oldshirt

.....it's kinda like telling the fat person to get buff.

There is no measuring stick for buff. 

And not only that, you never see the change from day to day. 

What you can see however is are they making verifiable changes to their diet? Are they exercising? Are they no longer bringing home Ho Ho's and Ding Dong's and 2 liter jugs of Mountain Dew every time they go to the store?

This is much the same way.

Is she doing things to address the issues that turn her off and enraging the things that can turn her on?

That's how you can determine if she is putting in sincere effort or not.


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## shortbus

That's a lot, I'll try to answer, although my answer isn't going to be that long.

I expect a positive attitude, we've known each other going on 30 years. I know what her 'attitude' is like. I expect a positive attitude towards our love life. Can it be quantitatively measured? No, but I know what an improvement looks like.

I expect an increase in frequency, this one's easy.

I expect it to not feel forced, I'll know in an instant if it feels that way from her, again, 30 years together.

I expect not to be rejected without a counter offer, I don't really consider a 'rejection' with a counter offer as a 'rejection', we all are busy and some times might not be the best for one party and fine for another.

My wife really is a nice person, she has many good qualities and I'd be hard pressed to find much fault. Has our sex life suffered over the years, absolutely.

But I think we've uncovered what's been going on. Her needs have been met in our marriage. I think through her solipsism, she's fine, so therefore, I'm fine. Not so much. Like she said, 'It's not that important to me'. I had a tough time getting thru to her that I'm not her, it's important to me, and I'm not going to live without it.

I genuinely think she now, finally, understands where I'm coming from, I think she'll make an honest effort.

I take the blame that I allowed this against myself for years. Like I've said repeatedly, I'm not the doormat I once was.

One thing she expressed was that she was so surprised by this now. I told her it's like a perfect storm. I'm at the end of my rope, I know my boundaries. I'm going to tell her my boundaries. And I'm not going to be in a celibate marriage. What I put up with for a long time, I should never have allowed. And now, will not allow.

I don't think she has any 'issues' per say. Her issue is she doesn't think about it on a daily basis, or ever for that matter. Previously, if I'd ask her when we had sex last, her answer would've been, 'oh, just the other day', could've been a week or better. So I wouldn't say she's turned off. 

She's responsive, it's not starfish, it's good when we have it.

So far, things are, 'looking up'.

I'm giving her a chance, I know it's early, but things have already improved, she seems sincere, I'm going to give her a chance to succeed. But please know, I won't go back. I've already gotten used to the reality of being divorced, it's not much of a leap for me at this time.


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## aine

BluesPower said:


> While I think what you wrote is comforting, thoughtful, and a whole bunch of adjectives.
> 
> What I don't understand from you, and several others, is why your posts sound encouraging for him to stay with his wife.
> 
> Do you not think that sexually intimacy is part of a loving, happy relationship?
> 
> This man has devoted his life to a woman that does not think enough of him to work on HER issues, and try to meet his physical needs.
> 
> I understand that sex is not everything, but good god, it is SOMETHING.
> 
> Why would anyone encourage a man to suffer any more than her already has. Why is that.
> 
> He has been a good husband, a good provider, a good father, and his wife, for what ever reason will not have sex with him.
> 
> Guys, help me understand your reasoning???


It is simple enough to understand. Men and women leave marriages (or cheat) because 20% of their needs (in this case sex) is not being met in the relationship. However, when they leave the discover the 20% with someone else (good hot sex) but may discover that they are unable to fulfill all the remaining 80% of their needs with someone else (family ties, memories, domestic support, etc). Hence the cycle continues.
Every relationship in the future will not necessarily meet their needs 100%.


----------



## aine

shortbus said:


> That's a lot, I'll try to answer, although my answer isn't going to be that long.
> 
> I expect a positive attitude, we've known each other going on 30 years. I know what her 'attitude' is like. I expect a positive attitude towards our love life. Can it be quantitatively measured? No, but I know what an improvement looks like.
> 
> I expect an increase in frequency, this one's easy.
> 
> I expect it to not feel forced, I'll know in an instant if it feels that way from her, again, 30 years together.
> 
> I expect not to be rejected without a counter offer, I don't really consider a 'rejection' with a counter offer as a 'rejection', we all are busy and some times might not be the best for one party and fine for another.
> 
> My wife really is a nice person, she has many good qualities and I'd be hard pressed to find much fault. Has our sex life suffered over the years, absolutely.
> 
> But I think we've uncovered what's been going on. Her needs have been met in our marriage. I think through her solipsism, she's fine, so therefore, I'm fine. Not so much. Like she said, 'It's not that important to me'. I had a tough time getting thru to her that I'm not her, it's important to me, and I'm not going to live without it.
> 
> I genuinely think she now, finally, understands where I'm coming from, I think she'll make an honest effort.
> 
> I take the blame that I allowed this against myself for years. Like I've said repeatedly, I'm not the doormat I once was.
> 
> One thing she expressed was that she was so surprised by this now. I told her it's like a perfect storm. I'm at the end of my rope, I know my boundaries. I'm going to tell her my boundaries. And I'm not going to be in a celibate marriage. What I put up with for a long time, I should never have allowed. And now, will not allow.
> 
> I don't think she has any 'issues' per say. Her issue is she doesn't think about it on a daily basis, or ever for that matter. Previously, if I'd ask her when we had sex last, her answer would've been, 'oh, just the other day', could've been a week or better. So I wouldn't say she's turned off.
> 
> She's responsive, it's not starfish, it's good when we have it.
> 
> So far, things are, 'looking up'.
> 
> I'm giving her a chance, I know it's early, but things have already improved, she seems sincere, I'm going to give her a chance to succeed. But please know, I won't go back. I've already gotten used to the reality of being divorced, it's not much of a leap for me at this time.



why dont you both have a discussion on needs. Read His Needs Her Needs, maybe you are not meeting all her needs either?


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## BluesPower

aine said:


> It is simple enough to understand. Men and women leave marriages (or cheat) because 20% of their needs (in this case sex) is not being met in the relationship. However, when they leave the discover the 20% with someone else (good hot sex) but may discover that they are unable to fulfill all the remaining 80% of their needs with someone else (family ties, memories, domestic support, etc). Hence the cycle continues.
> 
> Every relationship in the future will not necessarily meet their needs 100%.


I get what you are saying. Now there may be some men that think like a woman, but I am not one of them. 

I have other needs besides sex, but it is not 80%, actually it is the other way around. I want to be loved, desired, and my brains screwed out.

The other 20% I can figure out.


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## personofinterest

"
It is simple enough to understand. Men and women leave marriages (or cheat) because 20% of their needs (in this case sex) is not being met in the relationship. However, when they leave the discover the 20% with someone else (good hot sex) but may discover that they are unable to fulfill all the remaining 80% of their needs with someone else (family ties, memories, domestic support, etc). Hence the cycle continues.
Every relationship in the future will not necessarily meet their needs 100%."

There is never ever an excuse for cheating. That aside, the rest of this is so laughably and offensively overly simplified I don't even know where to begin.


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## farsidejunky

@shortbus:

Are you really that surprised that she was shocked at your conversation on Sunday?

While your words have said multiple times throughout the marriage that the situation is not okay, your actions have communicated something entirely different.



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## farsidejunky

@shortbus:

What do you do for a living?

Do you have any experience with crisis operations?

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## wilson

shortbus said:


> But I think we've uncovered what's been going on. Her needs have been met in our marriage. I think through her solipsism, she's fine, so therefore, I'm fine. Not so much. Like she said, 'It's not that important to me'. I had a tough time getting thru to her that I'm not her, it's important to me, and I'm not going to live without it.


No doubt you have met many of her needs, but they have likely been the practical needs like companionship, financial security, safety, etc. But quite often men will slack on meeting a woman's need for emotional intimacy. That has nothing to do with sexual intimacy, but is more about where she feels deeply connected to you on an emotional and spiritual level. 

Think back about when you first got together and were under the spell of Cupid's arrow. Likely, she was always at the front of your thoughts, you were deeply interested in what she had to say, you wanted to spend all your time with her, you would look for ways to be together, etc. But as time goes on, that emotional passion fades (like sexual passion often does). Now your conversations are more about practical matters, your time is spent on your day-to-day tasks, etc. If she were to ask you why were indifferent about emotional intimacy, you'd likely say some common sounding excuses like "I never think about it", "I'm too busy", "I'm tired", etc. She might even question your love because she can't understand how you can be so indifferent about meeting her need for emotional intimacy. And given your situation, you would likely say it's because of the lack of sexual intimacy, which is a big part of it that can't be denied.

Now you're at a place where you've made it clear that sexual intimacy is a requirement, but you can greatly help things along if you work on creating more emotional intimacy. The more you make her feel connected at a spiritual level, the more open she will be to sexual intimacy. So make an effort to regain that emotional connection you had at the beginning. When she's talking, make her feel like what she's saying is the most important thing to you. Go out for fun lunches during the week. When you come home, give her a big, warm hug. Do all that kind of stuff you would do when your relationship was just starting. However, don't do stuff with the expectation that it will create desire in her. Rather, you are working to make her heart more open so that she will be more welcoming of your advances. Right now she probably has lots of walls built up that makes things difficult. The more you can connect emotionally, the more those walls will come down.


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## Emerging Buddhist

aine said:


> It is simple enough to understand. Men and women leave marriages (or cheat) because 20% of their needs (in this case sex) is not being met in the relationship. However, when they leave the discover the 20% with someone else (good hot sex) but may discover that they are unable to fulfill all the remaining 80% of their needs with someone else (family ties, memories, domestic support, etc). Hence the cycle continues.
> Every relationship in the future will not necessarily meet their needs 100%.





BluesPower said:


> I get what you are saying. Now there may be some men that think like a woman, but I am not one of them.
> 
> I have other needs besides sex, but it is not 80%, actually it is the other way around. I want to be loved, desired, and my brains screwed out.
> 
> The other 20% I can figure out.


I do not necessarily know if these percentiles are meant to be more than general, but to understand the concepts and it is not isolated to thinking like a woman... this is understanding the balance between attachment (expectation) and acceptance in a way that says "You can't always get what you want but if you try sometimes you might find you get what you need".

What one wants and what one needs are often in conflict.

I say that because 3-4 times a month is hardly a celibate marriage with a willing partner.

What has risen to the surface in this thread to me is more about control, enforcing his desires through creating fear of divorce.

"I want, I expect", I (sic) demand my way or the highway... he is owned by these thoughts.

There was a lot of encouragement of him to insist on sex 7-8 times a month or divorce her disrespectful presence. Respect is a two-way street in any relationship... you cannot force change and promote respect in the same breath.


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## BluesPower

Emerging Buddhist said:


> I do not necessarily know if these percentiles are meant to be more than general, but to understand the concepts and it is not isolated to thinking like a woman... this is understanding the balance between attachment (expectation) and acceptance in a way that says "You can't always get what you want but if you try sometimes you might find you get what you need".
> 
> What one wants and what one needs are often in conflict.
> 
> I say that because 3-4 times a month is hardly a celibate marriage with a willing partner.
> 
> What has risen to the surface in this thread to me is more about control, enforcing his desires through creating fear of divorce.
> 
> "I want, I expect", I (sic) demand my way or the highway... he is owned by these thoughts.
> 
> There was a lot of encouragement of him to insist on sex 7-8 times a month or divorce her disrespectful presence. Respect is a two-way street in any relationship... you cannot force change and promote respect in the same breath.


I guess the Buddhist in you has maybe lowered your drive, or maybe you needed more time for meditation, what ever. 

While it does not meet the standard definition of sexless, 3 OR 4 times a month is sexless for me. 

If I was ever was with a woman that thought sex once a week was OK, good grief, she would not make it past the first week. 

I mean, as usually, your stuff sounds really sweet a spiritual, but not at all realistic to even with a normal sex drive. 

Look, if you are with a woman, and she is attractive, or you should not be with her. Good god man, you should wake up and want to have her, 3 or 4 times a week, not 3 or 4 times a month... otherwise why are you with her in the first place...

Look, GF and I had a spat, it has lasted about a week. For some reason, women have some type of 6th sense about when an ex they like to be with is having issues in a relationship. 

No less than THREE exes have been in contact with me this week, and they all laid it out. 

Do you have any idea how hard it is to not take some of that stuff, at least one or maybe two of them????

I however am an OAK and I am waiting to see where the other thing is going for sure...

But 3 or 4 times a month, god help us...


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## wilson

BluesPower said:


> While it does not meet the standard definition of sexless, 3 OR 4 times a month is sexless for me.
> 
> If I was ever with a woman that thought sex once a week was OK, good grief, she would not make it past the first week.
> 
> I mean, as usually, your stuff sounds really sweet a spiritual, but not at all realistic to even with a normal sex drive. .


Blues, please reconsider the context of your advice. You have made abundantly clear that sex is 110% of the reason you are in a relationship and that nothing else matters. If your partner can't satisfy you, she's out door. Great for you that your priorities are so clear! But I contend that this advice is not conducive to a life-long relationship or marriage. Marriages are not about satisfying one need and one need only. I'm sure your perspective is working out well for you, and I mean that sincerely, but I don't think it's going to lead to a life-long relationship. So when you're giving advice to people who are trying to achieve a life-long relationship, frame your advice to their goals instead of yours.



BluesPower said:


> But 3 or 4 times a month, god help us...


Studies have shown that once a week is the average amount of sex in a marriage. So please keep in mind when you tell someone that 3-4 times a month is insufficient, you're creating unrealistic expectations.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

BluesPower said:


> I guess the Buddhist in you has maybe lowered your drive, or maybe you needed more time for meditation, what ever.
> 
> While it does not meet the standard definition of sexless, 3 OR 4 times a month is sexless for me.
> 
> If I was ever was with a woman that thought sex once a week was OK, good grief, she would not make it past the first week.
> 
> I mean, as usually, your stuff sounds really sweet a spiritual, but not at all realistic to even with a normal sex drive.
> 
> Look, if you are with a woman, and she is attractive, or you should not be with her. Good god man, you should wake up and want to have her, 3 or 4 times a week, not 3 or 4 times a month... otherwise why are you with her in the first place...
> 
> Look, GF and I had a spat, it has lasted about a week. For some reason, women have some type of 6th sense about when an ex they like to be with is having issues in a relationship.
> 
> No less than THREE exes have been in contact with me this week, and they all laid it out.
> 
> Do you have any idea how hard it is to not take some of that stuff, at least one or maybe two of them????
> 
> I however am an OAK and I am waiting to see where the other thing is going for sure...
> 
> But 3 or 4 times a month, god help us...


:laugh:

No, my drive is pretty much 2-3 times a week... I just don't let it control me when the moon and stars don't align. :wink2:

My last marriage was once a week, but she was 10 years older too (55/65) so I understood and accepted there would be a difference in how things clicked as we aged and expectations and acceptance made it much less stressful for us both.

Today, life is much more congruent as is my love for the one I love.

Buddhism does teach a balance between expectations and acceptance, especially understand that suffering and attachment is in fact, attached.

Reality based...


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## Beach123

So she just doesn't think about sex. 

My question is:

What, exactly WOULD make her "think about" sex every day?

Ask her that! 


I'm left wondering why she doesn't think about sex... is it not that great for her? What else can be done to make it great so she does think about it MORE often!

It's like desert - when it's great - you think about it and you want MORE!


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## personofinterest

> It's like desert - when it's great - you think about it and you want MORE!


Actually no. My ex told me he really REALLY enjoyed it when it happened. He just didn't need it, so it didn't cross his mind.

I absolutely love mango key lime pie. But I never really think about eating it or buying it. Until I go visit my mom and she has bought one at Publix. We have a Publix a mile from me. I just don't about it, even though it is delicious.

Of course, I recently was corrected and informed that the reason my husband starved me of affection and sex for over a decade was because I was so bad in bed I turned him gay, so what do I know


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## Affaircare

BluesPower said:


> I guess the Buddhist in you has maybe lowered your drive, or maybe you needed more time for meditation, what ever.
> 
> While it does not meet the standard definition of sexless, 3 OR 4 times a month is sexless for me.
> 
> If I was ever was with a woman that thought sex once a week was OK, good grief, she would not make it past the first week.
> 
> I mean, as usually, your stuff sounds really sweet a spiritual, but not at all realistic to even with a normal sex drive.
> 
> Look, if you are with a woman, and she is attractive, or you should not be with her. Good god man, you should wake up and want to have her, 3 or 4 times a week, not 3 or 4 times a month... otherwise why are you with her in the first place...


 @BluesPower, permission to speak frankly. I think what we (all of us here on @shortbus 's thread) may have is a difference in value. I find INTIMACY in all its forms valuable--I think it sounds like you hold INTERCOURSE only as what is valuable.

If I remember correctly, you are not a man in his 20's, right? I myself am 56yo as is EB, and our children are all grown and for the most part out of the house. Thus, we are at an age where the thought of retirement is upon us, where menopause is upon us, where the empty nest is upon us, and where various health changes occur just because at this age, they do. We are also of an age similar to @shortbus, if I remember correctly. 

FOR MYSELF (I can't speak for anyone else) I can honestly say that as I age, it's not as if my drive goes up or down, but what it does do is go from an absolute hunger to a more chill, mellow enjoyment. In my later 30's and early 40's it really was a hunger that drove me; in my later 50's I still love it but it's just more about enjoyment and closeness, not about being driven for my smoldering passions.

Also, my true desire isn't so much just the intercourse--it's for closeness and intimacy. That can be expressed a myriad of ways throughout the day, and then the icing on the cake, so to speak, is expressing it also by way of sexuality. So my value is that being close all day long, being loving and thoughtful and respectful and mutual and considerate and kind all day long, is a portion of intimacy. Being with each other and enjoying companionship and each other's company is another portion of intimacy. Being sensitive to the needs of the other is another portion of intimacy--true, deep KNOWING and transparency that includes speaking of fears, sharing burdens, and shedding tears. And being sexual is yet another portion of intimacy. 

To me, your posts sound as if you think/feel/believe that only the last one is intimacy. And that's the same way @shortbus comes off sounding to me. Like all that other affection and cherishing and partnership means nothing if there isn't the very last one. Gee... Okay that's your choice, and that's fine. What I mean when I post is that it's not the only choice "out there in the world" and that considering additional intimacy might be a new perspective.

Finally...just one thought to ease your mind: nope EB's drive is not diminished due to needing extra meditation time  >


----------



## personofinterest

> @BluesPower, permission to speak frankly. I think what we (all of us here on @shortbus 's thread) may have is a difference in value. I find INTIMACY in all its forms valuable--I think it sounds like you hold INTERCOURSE only as what is valuable.


I think that even though it is sweetly said, the judgment in this sentence is clear.

I value "all forms of intimacy" as well. But when I was having sex less than once a year with the man who promised to love and cherish me.....it sucked. And becoming zen was not the answer. Divorcing was. Because my ex husband was breaking his vows.

There is no shame in needing sexual intimacy. None.

It is possible to disagree without implying that one is shallow for desiring intercourse.

This thread is a prime example of what those of us starved of sex endure in addition to sexlessness - quiet judgment for needing it in the first place, and shallow for ending our marriages over "something so silly."


----------



## BluesPower

Affaircare said:


> @BluesPower, permission to speak frankly. I think what we (all of us here on @shortbus 's thread) may have is a difference in value. I find INTIMACY in all its forms valuable--I think it sounds like you hold INTERCOURSE only as what is valuable.
> 
> If I remember correctly, you are not a man in his 20's, right? I myself am 56yo as is EB, and our children are all grown and for the most part out of the house. Thus, we are at an age where the thought of retirement is upon us, where menopause is upon us, where the empty nest is upon us, and where various health changes occur just because at this age, they do. We are also of an age similar to @shortbus, if I remember correctly.
> 
> FOR MYSELF (I can't speak for anyone else) I can honestly say that as I age, it's not as if my drive goes up or down, but what it does do is go from an absolute hunger to a more chill, mellow enjoyment. In my later 30's and early 40's it really was a hunger that drove me; in my later 50's I still love it but it's just more about enjoyment and closeness, not about being driven for my smoldering passions.
> 
> Also, my true desire isn't so much just the intercourse--it's for closeness and intimacy. That can be expressed a myriad of ways throughout the day, and then the icing on the cake, so to speak, is expressing it also by way of sexuality. So my value is that being close all day long, being loving and thoughtful and respectful and mutual and considerate and kind all day long, is a portion of intimacy. Being with each other and enjoying companionship and each other's company is another portion of intimacy. Being sensitive to the needs of the other is another portion of intimacy--true, deep KNOWING and transparency that includes speaking of fears, sharing burdens, and shedding tears. And being sexual is yet another portion of intimacy.
> 
> To me, your posts sound as if you think/feel/believe that only the last one is intimacy. And that's the same way @shortbus comes off sounding to me. Like all that other affection and cherishing and partnership means nothing if there isn't the very last one. Gee... Okay that's your choice, and that's fine. What I mean when I post is that it's not the only choice "out there in the world" and that considering additional intimacy might be a new perspective.
> 
> Finally...just one thought to ease your mind: nope EB's drive is not diminished due to needing extra meditation time  >


That is really nice and I am glad you are in a great place. FYI, I am 54, and just as HD as I ever was. 

My current GF is 60 and with me, she is hi drive as well. It has actually exploded for her, wonder why. 

You know, I have intimacy, and I like sex, and it usually includes intercourse. Intimacy and sex are TWO different things. 
@shortbus has already sacrificed his sex life for his wife, for whatever reason. I think he may about 50. 

HE wants to have intercourse and all types of sex, and I say good for him. 

Some people slow down at 50-60 YO's old. 

When I slow down, or @shortbus stops wanting to have sex with his wife, I will let you know, and I am sure that @shortbus may do the same as well. 

Mean while, if the new arrangement works, the man has some catching up to do...


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

personofinterest said:


> I value "all forms of intimacy" as well. But when I was having sex less than once a year with the man who promised to love and cherish me.....it sucked. And becoming zen was not the answer. Divorcing was. Because my ex husband was breaking his vows.
> 
> There is no shame in needing sexual intimacy. None.


I agree with you here that divorce was best for you... less than once a year would not be conducive to a physically intimate relationship unless there were debilitating physical reasons one would not be capable of participating in. I would think that is where love and honoring one's vows would shine through.

If they just didn't want to have a physical connection, that is where Zen (action-oriented) would tell you to let go of that which truly hurts you, not bind you... you get to choose which that is and how it is applied though, the mindfulness is in understanding why is it a deal-breaker in your life and is it really what it appears to be.

One would have to look past the "I want" to see that, it makes it so much easier to walk without hanging onto the weights of anger or resentment from there.
@shortbus has a lot of options, but only a few may bring him sustainable calm where he is.

Of course, he would have to love her to accomplish this... it saddened me to hear him set such demands in the same breath he states so little of that.


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## PigglyWiggly

personofinterest said:


> Actually no. My ex told me he really REALLY enjoyed it when it happened. He just didn't need it, so it didn't cross his mind.
> 
> I absolutely love mango key lime pie. But I never really think about eating it or buying it. Until I go visit my mom and she has bought one at Publix. We have a Publix a mile from me. I just don't about it, even though it is delicious.
> 
> Of course, I recently was corrected and informed that the reason my husband starved me of affection and sex for over a decade was because I was so bad in bed I turned him gay, so what do I know


I said MAYBE the sex was bad for him, MAYBE he is gay.....why don't you try being an honest adult? What does being dishonest do for you? Does it make you feel good about yourself? Everyone can read what I typed and see that you are being dishonest. Does that not bother you?


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## shortbus

Wow, here's the deal, just so everyone can come to a conclusion whether I'm a jerk of a husband or not.

I'm a power plant operator, I've worked shift work my whole life.

I meet my wife's emotional needs, at least that's the story I'm getting. We get along, enjoy each others company, other than the gap in our sex life, we have very little problems.

I enjoy all kinds of 'intimacy' with my wife, I however, also have a need for a physical relationship, I don't think this is a bad thing. It's not that I've given my wife an ultimatum, although some may think that. I've stated as plainly as I can, I will not be celibate and married. If she doesn't want to engage in what I think is a normal, married, physical relationship, fine, she's more than welcome to live that way. She just won't be my wife.

I'm trying to recover from what's been done to me throughout my married life with her. As I've already stated, I was a doormat for years, even decades. I'm no longer that doormat. 

This is reclaiming what I want for me. I won't live in a celibate marriage. period.


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## BluesPower

shortbus said:


> Wow, here's the deal, just so everyone can come to a conclusion whether I'm a jerk of a husband or not.
> 
> I'm a power plant operator, I've worked shift work my whole life.
> 
> I meet my wife's emotional needs, at least that's the story I'm getting. We get along, enjoy each others company, other than the gap in our sex life, we have very little problems.
> 
> I enjoy all kinds of 'intimacy' with my wife, I however, also have a need for a physical relationship, I don't think this is a bad thing. It's not that I've given my wife an ultimatum, although some may think that. I've stated as plainly as I can, I will not be celibate and married. If she doesn't want to engage in what I think is a normal, married, physical relationship, fine, she's more than welcome to live that way. She just won't be my wife.
> 
> I'm trying to recover from what's been done to me throughout my married life with her. As I've already stated, I was a doormat for years, even decades. I'm no longer that doormat.
> 
> This is reclaiming what I want for me. I won't live in a celibate marriage. period.


This is the best thing that you have written. You have every right to feel this way, and I for one fully support you...

God Speed...


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## PigglyWiggly

shortbus said:


> Wow, here's the deal,* just so everyone can come to a conclusion whether I'm a jerk of a husband or not.*
> 
> I'm a power plant operator, I've worked shift work my whole life.
> 
> I meet my wife's emotional needs, at least that's the story I'm getting. We get along, enjoy each others company, other than the gap in our sex life, we have very little problems.
> 
> I enjoy all kinds of 'intimacy' with my wife, I however, also have a need for a physical relationship, I don't think this is a bad thing. It's not that I've given my wife an ultimatum, although some may think that. I've stated as plainly as I can, I will not be celibate and married. If she doesn't want to engage in what I think is a normal, married, physical relationship, fine, she's more than welcome to live that way. She just won't be my wife.
> 
> I'm trying to recover from what's been done to me throughout my married life with her. As I've already stated, I was a doormat for years, even decades. I'm no longer that doormat.
> 
> This is reclaiming what I want for me. I won't live in a celibate marriage. period.



It doesn't matter what we think. You have to live with your decisions and do what you think is best for your mental health. 

Good luck on your journey!


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## Emerging Buddhist

shortbus said:


> Wow, here's the deal, just so everyone can come to a conclusion whether I'm a jerk of a husband or not.
> 
> I'm a power plant operator, I've worked shift work my whole life.
> 
> I meet my wife's emotional needs, at least that's the story I'm getting. We get along, enjoy each others company, other than the gap in our sex life, we have very little problems.
> 
> I enjoy all kinds of 'intimacy' with my wife, I however, also have a need for a physical relationship, I don't think this is a bad thing. It's not that I've given my wife an ultimatum, although some may think that. I've stated as plainly as I can, I will not be celibate and married. If she doesn't want to engage in what I think is a normal, married, physical relationship, fine, she's more than welcome to live that way. She just won't be my wife.
> 
> I'm trying to recover from what's been done to me throughout my married life with her. As I've already stated, I was a doormat for years, even decades. I'm no longer that doormat.
> 
> This is reclaiming what I want for me. I won't live in a celibate marriage. period.


I do not think you a jerk of a husband, you have stood by your family.

I am not sure you were really a doormat either, perhaps your image of not getting what you want has you placing yourself there.

I do think anger and resentment forming from your perception of a celibate marriage is hurting you.

I think not loving your wife will end this faster for you than anything else.

Peace be with you...


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## PigglyWiggly

Emerging Buddhist said:


> I do not think you a jerk of a husband, you have stood by your family.
> 
> I am not sure you were really a doormat either, perhaps your image of not getting what you want has you placing yourself there.
> 
> *I do think anger and resentment forming from your perception of a celibate marriage is hurting you.
> *
> I think not loving your wife will end this faster for you than anything else.
> 
> Peace be with you...


"You will not be punished for your anger but by your anger" It's one of the better lessons I have learned.


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## farsidejunky

As a power plant operator, how long are crisis operations sustainable in your facility without bringing in additional resources?

There's a reason I asked that question.

And I hope it wasn't my post that you felt suggested you were a jerk of a husband.

A sexless marriage brought me to this site in 2014. In the process of restoring my marriage, I did plenty of ******* things, mostly from swinging the pendulum too far the other way after being a complacent nice guy for too long.

You've laid down your boundary. You are right that it is now up to her to choose what she wants. if she is faking something now, it won't be sustainable. You will find out soon enough.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Beach123

Why don't you see you counselor together to see if you can both compromise a bit?


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## shortbus

Farside, I'm not sure about your first question. But to be honest, the public has no idea, that most 24/7 operations, power plants, refineries, chemical plants, electrical grid, our entire infrastructure, runs understaffed, overstressed and unmaintained by near retirement age professionals.

I've not done anything 'bad' in our marriage. I also don't think I'm swinging the pendulum the other way. I'm hoping the pendulum centers. 

Some here think I'm only interested in sex. That's not true. I do enjoy other 'intimacy' with my wife, but with no sex, the others remain not meaningless, but certainly not the intimate connection that I want. I have come to understand my wants and desires in the recent past. And I've come to realize that all those 'intimacies' don't make me feel loved. Having sex with her does. When I go without, I think to myself, what did I do? Doesn't she love me? I didn't do anything. What do I have to do to fix this?

Well, I now know I can't fix it. I can be receptive to my wife attempting to fix this. I've taken a hard look at the way our live together is and how I've treated her through the years, and I don't deserve what's happened.

I'm not looking to punish her or get my pound of flesh. I simply want what I think should be.

So far, things are looking up. Doesn't seem to be artificial. If it's sincere and sustained, I'll be the first to know.

Beach 123, I don't desire to meet with a counselor at all. I know there are both success and horror stories from counseling.

Here's the thing. So many people seem to have the attitude that someone 'gets' sex from the other person. I think that's not only the wrong way to look at it, but it's very harmful. It's as if someone loses and someone gains. I think this is a terrible way to see it. Sex in marriage is to be shared and is a bonding experience for both parties. Sex is often said to be the glue that holds a marriage together. I'm not looking to 'get' sex from my wife.

So many things don't really have a middle ground. I'm to look for a compromise between what I would call normal and healthy and sexless, unhealthy and damaging? So what's that look like? Damn near sexless, not healthy for me and further damaging my marriage?


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## farsidejunky

@shortbus:

I know the staffing and other resource woes. I have a part to play in the emergency preparedness of the FNF sites here in Tennessee . That is why I asked. 

The purpose behind me asking about crisis operations is sustainability. That is why your wife is good for a while...then fades out. She can't sustain it. 

I'm not suggesting you are an *******. I was speaking solely of myself.

My wife and I had a similar conversation (heated) in 2014 or 2015 when she tried to illustrate how she did other things for me. 

I then asked her if I continued to cook, clean, help her with the things she needs, etc., but just make minimal effort in her feeling secure or valued in our relationship, would she feel loved by me? Her answer was a quiet "no". It was one of a few light bulb moments for her. 

My point here is that you have options besides her biting the pillow or getting a divorce. Perhaps this will be permanent. I hope it is, with both of you being happy.

My experience on TAM and in my marriage says otherwise. 



Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## shortbus

Farside, now I see what you're saying about sustainability.

I agree that we've had multiple discussions in the past 2+ years where I've attempted to illustrate where I'm coming from or show her something and she doesn't get it. I kept thinking she was going to have her, 'come to Jesus moment', but it never happened.

She does seem to have reached that point the other day. Only time will tell. I'm not giving it forever, I think I'll know in the short run.

Currently, she doesn't seem to be having to bite the pillow.

Truth be told, when I first came here, not my recent posts, but lurked a long time now, I hadn't seen any what I'd call successful reconciliations from a sexless marriage. So, having said that, I don't realistically have my hopes up for a long term sustained fix, but I'm at least giving it a try. I have every reason to be hopeful at this point. But my telling her I was ready to file this past weekend has removed the fear I had to do so.


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## Livvie

aine said:


> BluesPower said:
> 
> 
> 
> While I think what you wrote is comforting, thoughtful, and a whole bunch of adjectives.
> 
> What I don't understand from you, and several others, is why your posts sound encouraging for him to stay with his wife.
> 
> Do you not think that sexually intimacy is part of a loving, happy relationship?
> 
> This man has devoted his life to a woman that does not think enough of him to work on HER issues, and try to meet his physical needs.
> 
> I understand that sex is not everything, but good god, it is SOMETHING.
> 
> Why would anyone encourage a man to suffer any more than her already has. Why is that.
> 
> He has been a good husband, a good provider, a good father, and his wife, for what ever reason will not have sex with him.
> 
> Guys, help me understand your reasoning???
> 
> 
> 
> It is simple enough to understand. Men and women leave marriages (or cheat) because 20% of their needs (in this case sex) is not being met in the relationship. However, when they leave the discover the 20% with someone else (good hot sex) but may discover that they are unable to fulfill all the remaining 80% of their needs with someone else (family ties, memories, domestic support, etc). Hence the cycle continues.
> Every relationship in the future will not necessarily meet their needs 100%.
Click to expand...

I think people should refresh themselves with the original opening post. This *isn't* one of those really really good marriages, but sex has just dropped off over the years.

It sounds like shortbus' wife was never into him much sexually, even at the beginning. Also went thru times sex was once a month or less. His wife had been resistant to addressing this issue between them. Stated boldly to basically leave her alone, she's not interested in him that way. Can't he get a girlfriend?? Dragged feet when presented with reading love languages book. Would get angry!! when asked to have a date night. Angry! Goes what? Marriage is a sexual relationship. It's not just a friendship. While they 80%, might work as friends, it sounds like it was never much of any percent of am actual connected, intimate, fulfilling MARRIAGE. 

They agreed not to have kids. 8 years in, wife issued an ultimatum, have a kid now, or I'm divorcing you.

It seems this was never a connected, loving partnership on her end.

So this advise coming this many pages in makes me think some of it doesn't fit with the actuality of the marriage the OP is in and has been in.

It's not anywhere close to 80% a good marriage. 

Just because they don't fight about domestic issues and get along as FRIENDS does not a marriage make.


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## Marc878

Hopium is a very strong addiction.


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## oldshirt

Livvie said:


> I think people should refresh themselves with the original opening post. This *isn't* one of those really really good marriages, but sex has just dropped off over the years.
> 
> It sounds like shortbus' wife was never into him much sexually, even at the beginning. Also went thru times sex was once a month or less. His wife had been resistant to addressing this issue between them. Stated boldly to basically leave her alone, she's not interested in him that way. Can't he get a girlfriend?? Dragged feet when presented with reading love languages book. Would get angry!! when asked to have a date night. Angry! Goes what? Marriage is a sexual relationship. It's not just a friendship. While they 80%, might work as friends, it sounds like it was never much of any percent of am actual connected, intimate, fulfilling MARRIAGE.
> 
> They agreed not to have kids. 8 years in, wife issued an ultimatum, have a kid now, or I'm divorcing you.
> 
> It seems this was never a connected, loving partnership on her end.
> 
> So this advise coming this many pages in makes me think some of it doesn't fit with the actuality of the marriage the OP is in and has been in.
> 
> It's not anywhere close to 80% a good marriage.
> 
> Just because they don't fight about domestic issues and get along as FRIENDS does not a marriage make.



Agreed.

This is a chronic condition since the beginning. 

When he threatens to leave, she 'puts out' a number of times; he then thinks everything is OK and that they've turned over a new leaf and then in a few weeks it goes back to square-one. 

I assume they are both good, kind, decent people and so neither cheats, is abusive, is a drunk or mistreats the other and so therefor they get along. 

There is no reason to think that this pattern could not go on forever. It's lasted 29 years so theoretically it could last another 29..... especially once his libido starts to decline with age. 

The issue here is if he is wanting to have a passionate, intimate sex life with someone who is into him and yearns to be with him sexually, it will have to be with someone else. 

As they get along and she does "provide" sex when he whines and threatens divorce I see just a few basic options here -

- he can suck it up and live with it and find a way to live with coerced sexual encounters every now and then and keep the house and the 401k and keep the bank accounts intact and live in a manner that probably most couples who have been married 30+ years live. 

- he can divorce, split the marital assets as fair and equitably as possible and each carry on with their own lives and hope he finds someone that is into him (which is completely possible and reasonable if he hasn't let himself go and is all fat and slovenly) 

- Take her up on her offer to seek sexuality outside of the marriage and try to find a FWB, GF, AP or the services of a professional provide. 

Each option will have it's own set of risks and benefits, pros and cons. 

I think it will ultimately will come down to what he wants to see in the mirror. Will he want to be the person that takes a risk and goes for the unknown in taking a chance to find someone that will be into him and 'might' have a happy and healthy sex life? (and in the process split the marital assets and disrupt his current family life)

Or will he settle for a chronically lackluster sex life that will likely continue to deteriorate with time and age in order to not lose marital assets or disrupt family life. 


It comes down to will he take an action that 'might' result in a satisfactory sex life (reasonable chance, but no guarantee) or will he stick with status quo that will result in a comfortable nonsexual existence but will be basically assured of long term frustration and dissatisfaction.


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## BluesPower

I agree with that last two posts by @Livvie and @oldshirt...

And since I am trying to be gentler and kinder, I am hoping that this really works out for @shortbus. 

It might. Lots of us have had issues in marriage where if the offending partner actually "got it", you know, wouldn't that be great. 

So I am hoping that she starts to understand and that he makes good decisions for himself. 

It could happen...

One final point. I think that the spouse in a marriage that is denying sex to someone that loves them and desires them, I believe that spouse is being abusive. No, it is no where near as bad as physical, or maybe even verbal or emotional abuse, so I don't want to have that debate that. 

But it is some type of abuse...


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## [email protected]

Shortbus, the only way out is to divorce. That is, unless you remain in a state of misery for the rest of your life.


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## Slow Hand

Livvie said:


> I think people should refresh themselves with the original opening post. This *isn't* one of those really really good marriages, but sex has just dropped off over the years.
> 
> It sounds like shortbus' wife was never into him much sexually, even at the beginning. Also went thru times sex was once a month or less. His wife had been resistant to addressing this issue between them. Stated boldly to basically leave her alone, she's not interested in him that way. Can't he get a girlfriend?? Dragged feet when presented with reading love languages book. Would get angry!! when asked to have a date night. Angry! Goes what? Marriage is a sexual relationship. It's not just a friendship. While they 80%, might work as friends, it sounds like it was never much of any percent of am actual connected, intimate, fulfilling MARRIAGE.
> 
> They agreed not to have kids. 8 years in, wife issued an ultimatum, have a kid now, or I'm divorcing you.
> 
> It seems this was never a connected, loving partnership on her end.
> 
> So this advise coming this many pages in makes me think some of it doesn't fit with the actuality of the marriage the OP is in and has been in.
> 
> It's not anywhere close to 80% a good marriage.
> 
> Just because they don't fight about domestic issues and get along as FRIENDS does not a marriage make.


You know, that part has stuck with me, her sudden interest in having a kid and the ultimatum. I don’t think a DNA test is out of the question here, may be more to it.


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## Beach123

shortbus said:


> Farside, now I see what you're saying about sustainability.
> 
> I agree that we've had multiple discussions in the past 2+ years where I've attempted to illustrate where I'm coming from or show her something and she doesn't get it. I kept thinking she was going to have her, 'come to Jesus moment', but it never happened.
> 
> She does seem to have reached that point the other day. Only time will tell. I'm not giving it forever, I think I'll know in the short run.
> 
> Currently, she doesn't seem to be having to bite the pillow.
> 
> Truth be told, when I first came here, not my recent posts, but lurked a long time now, I hadn't seen any what I'd call successful reconciliations from a sexless marriage. So, having said that, I don't realistically have my hopes up for a long term sustained fix, but I'm at least giving it a try. I have every reason to be hopeful at this point. But my telling her I was ready to file this past weekend has removed the fear I had to do so.


So what was resolved in these talks? Anything? Was there any new agreement made that we would happen more often?

What was her attitude about your discussions?


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## shortbus

Slowhand, it took over a year to get pregnant, so I'm pretty sure he's mine. There are other factors also. It wasn't as if she decided she 'wanted' a child and was pregnant by the end of the week.

Beach123, I guess we 'resolved' that she just doesn't think about it. It's not important to her. She doesn't understand why it's important to me. So she seems to understand now that I have needs in the marriage that may not be consistent with hers. I explained to her that I do a bunch of stuff for her that 'really aren't important to me'. And we're trying to make an effort in the right direction.

Last week was a step in the right direction, it remains to be seen if it continues.

I don't have a strict timeline in mind, but it isn't a long one. She already knows where I stand. Once the ice is broken on bringing up divorce, I think the next time the subject comes up, she'll know it's no more chances.

Her attitude was one of shock and disbelief, then she seemed sincere on trying to make it work.

Words are cheap. Realistically, I give this about a 25% chance.


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## oldshirt

Responses in bold below



shortbus said:


> Beach123, I guess we 'resolved' that she just doesn't think about it. It's not important to her. She doesn't understand why it's important to me.
> 
> *she understands just fine. She's just hoping that you will let it go some day. *
> 
> So she seems to understand now that I have needs in the marriage that may not be consistent with hers. I explained to her that I do a bunch of stuff for her that 'really aren't important to me'. And we're trying to make an effort in the right direction.
> 
> *perhaps in a 30year history of lackluster sex life, a negotiated settlement of give and take that keeps the piece, may be the best one can hope for.*
> 
> Last week was a step in the right direction, it remains to be seen if it continues.
> 
> *step in the right direction for who?*
> 
> I don't have a strict timeline in mind, but it isn't a long one.
> 
> *my suggestion is if you do have some kind of deadline in mind, keep it completely to yourself and do not even tell her that there is a timeline or deadline. Any can mark a calendar and fake it until then. *
> 
> 
> She already knows where I stand.
> 
> *she's probably known for 29 years.*
> 
> Once the ice is broken on bringing up divorce, I think the next time the subject comes up, she'll know it's no more chances.
> 
> *this is where I actually disagree. She had no reason to believe that you ever would actually drop the ax. You huff and puff every so often, she dangles a carrot and and offers up some poon for awhile and then she gets two more years out of the deal.
> 
> You have trained her to pay lip service and to suck it up for a few weeks and then go back to status quo.
> 
> She has no reason to think the next time will be any more serious than the times before. As time goes on, you'll just get older, lazier and less likely to actually do anything.
> 
> You are playing games that she is the pro at.*
> 
> Her attitude was one of shock and disbelief, then she seemed sincere on trying to make it work.
> 
> *see my last sentence about her being the expert at the game. *
> 
> Words are cheap. Realistically, I give this about a 25% chance.
> 
> *give what 25% chance? Remaining married? I'd give that well over 85% chance.
> 
> Having a 'good' sex life 6 months from now? Not so much. *


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## justastatistic

I have a suggestion for you and don't know if others have suggested it. If your wife has agreed to give it one more try and that there will be more sex, then schedule it. If you agreed on at least twice a week, then set Saturday and one other night during the week, or whatever works with your schedules, but set it down firmly for two specific nights. Do not just have a sort of open ended "yeah we'll do it twice a week" agreement, that is unlikely to work. Since she says she doesn't think about it, expecting her to just change and start thinking about it is not going to work.

BY scheduling the sex, you'll both know exactly when it is going to happen and you won't have to think about it. That takes the pressure off. Eventually, it will become something you not only do, but look forward to.

It sounds unromantic, and maybe it is, but it works.


----------



## Elizabeth001

justastatistic said:


> I have a suggestion for you and don't know if others have suggested it.



Yes...it’s been suggested. It does help to skim through at least a few of the previous posts. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## shortbus

Just a quick update. 2 weeks in, things are much better. I'm pleasantly surprised. I wouldn't say we're scheduling per say, due to my work schedule, but things have definitely improved.

She seems genuinely sincere, and willing to improve the marriage. If things continue, I'll be more than happy.

Some of the negative thoughts and feelings I've had about our situation have eased up.

So, things seem to be headed in the right direction, either that, or I'll get served on monday. ;-)


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## aine

shortbus said:


> Just a quick update. 2 weeks in, things are much better. I'm pleasantly surprised. I wouldn't say we're scheduling per say, due to my work schedule, but things have definitely improved.
> 
> She seems genuinely sincere, and willing to improve the marriage. If things continue, I'll be more than happy.
> 
> Some of the negative thoughts and feelings I've had about our situation have eased up.
> 
> So, things seem to be headed in the right direction, either that, or I'll get served on monday. ;-)


Good to hear there is progress, may it continue, onwards and upwards................:grin2:


----------

