# Her: "Can we still be friends?"



## Dogbert

I've just finished having dinner with an old friend when I just happened to overhear a small part of a conversation from another table. A woman asked the question "Can we still be friends?". Whoah! What a trigger that question was for me.

The last time I saw my ex-WW was when the divorce became finalized. As I was leaving the courthouse, she ran up and said to me "Can we still be friends?" I thought about replying back to her with a contemptuous "Friends don't stab each other in the back" but thought that my silence would be enough of an answer. Good thing I did for it probably saved me from an emotionally charged discussion that could have easily turned ugly with just a few wrong words from her part.

Today I still shake my head today when I think how much her head was so far up her @$$ for me to even consider such a ridiculous idea to begin with. Good thing that I have a cast iron stomach otherwise I would have puked my brains out to even think that I would say to her "Yes, lets remain friends". Unbelievable.


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## EleGirl

Some people just do not understand that their actions have consequences.


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## Dogbert

Nor the emotional magnitude of their actions.


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## SamuraiJack

I think the "can we still be friends?" is their way of rationalizing/minimalizing their actions. 
My ex did the exact same thing to me...said it "would be good for the kids."...and some other bullsh1t about providing role models that people can part in good ways.

I told her that we were *never* going to be friends again, friends dont treat other the way she treated me, and that her actions have set the tone for the remainder of what we have to do together. I told her that I was more concerned with teaching my kids not to be doormats than pretending everything is "fine".

She kept up on this angle for a few years after we split up. I gave her the same answer every time and told her if I could be nuetral, she should be happy. I dont make any effort to hide whatever disdain , disgust or dissapointment I have in her.
I dont see the need to be dishonest with myself.

"Being Friends" afterwards is just a nice little nugget to feed the rationalization hamster in their head. If you end up being friends then "_it was not really meant to be" or "I didnt really do anything wrong because it all turned out good in the end. If I had done something wrong everyone would be mad at me."_

distilled into...

_"In fact I was SUPPOSED to do this since the marriage wouldnt have worked anyway."_

Distilled further into...

_"I had to do it. What else COULD I have done?"_

and the final proofing...

_"We wouldnt have lasted as lovers because we are friends. I saved everyone a lot of time and heartache by just cutting to the chase."_

"Lets be friends" has nothing to do with friendship and has everything to do with self delusion that somehow what they did was okay.

I refuse to buy into it.


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## Rowan

My ex-husband told me once, in the weeks we were waiting for our divorce to finalize, that I'd always be his best friend. I said that we couldn't be friends, because friends trust each other and he'd proven he wasn't trustworthy. He was genuinely hurt and said I was just being cruel. That, after I'd found out he'd been serially cheating on me for nearly our whole 15+ year marriage. 

:slap: 

You just can't make up that level of clueless self-centeredness.


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## Pluto2

SamuraiJack said:


> I think the "can we still be friends?" is their way of rationalizing/minimalizing their actions.
> My ex did the exact same thing to me...said it "would be good for the kids."...and some other bullsh1t about providing role models that people can part in good ways.
> 
> I told her that we were *never* going to be friends again, friends dont treat other the way she treated me, and that her actions have set the tone for the remainder of what we have to do together. I told her that I was more concerned with teaching my kids not to be doormats than pretending everything is "fine".
> 
> She kept up on this angle for a few years after we split up. I gave her the same answer every time and told her if I could be nuetral, she should be happy. I dont make any effort to hide whatever disdain , disgust or dissapointment I have in her.
> I dont see the need to be dishonest with myself.
> 
> "Being Friends" afterwards is just a nice little nugget to feed the rationalization hamster in their head. If you end up being friends then "_it was not really meant to be" or "I didnt really do anything wrong because it all turned out good in the end. If I had done something wrong everyone would be mad at me."_
> 
> distilled into...
> 
> _"In fact I was SUPPOSED to do this since the marriage wouldnt have worked anyway."_
> 
> Distilled further into...
> 
> _"I had to do it. What else COULD I have done?"_
> 
> and the final proofing...
> 
> _"We wouldnt have lasted as lovers because we are friends. I saved everyone a lot of time and heartache by just cutting to the chase."_
> 
> "Lets be friends" has nothing to do with friendship and has everything to do with self delusion that somehow what they did was okay.
> 
> I refuse to buy into it.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Some folks seem to think if they can be friends with their ex, then their ex couldn't have been hurt as much as either the ex says, or they, themselves believe. I certainly haven't had this conversation with Triple D. I have seen a few couples go through this. They want to think "it was all for the best" and "my ex is a happier person now". Well, that last part is usually true. Most people are happier without a lying, cheating skank for a spouse. I've yet to see one couple actually remain true friends. The best I've seen is cordial co-parents.


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## Married but Happy

It really depends on the circumstances surrounding the relationship and the reasons for breaking up. I'm friends with several exes, but not my ex-wife. If the circumstances had been different, I could have remained friendly with her, too. We are - rarely - in contact because we have a son, but as he's an adult, there is little to communicate and won't be until he gets married, probably.


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## Healer

My exww still pushes for us to be friends too. "We were really good at that once". Why in the blue **** would I want a friend who treated me the way she did? With friends like that....

And the person she turned into - even if it weren't for the cheating and all the other horrible stuff - I wouldn't be friends with someone of her character anyway. It would never cross my mind to associate with someone like that. Sadly, because of the kids, I cannot escape her. If it weren't for them I'd never see or speak to get again.

It's crazy to look at her and think I was once her devoted, loving husband. No wonder I was on Zoloft all those years.


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## SamuraiJack

I have this thought running around that maybe the "lets be friends" is a small manifestation of the Fog.

Those pesky chemicals and hormones really do see to rule us at times.


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## Ynot

My ex tried the "let's be friends" tact as we moved thru the process. When I explained that friendship is based on trust and that I could not trust some one who could throw away 25 years of life together, she made it into my problem. I set up road blocks to friendship because she always thought we were bigger people than that.
We may had been able to salvage something from our relationship if she had made any real effort at resolving our differences. I truly feel that the effort would have been worth it because in trying we may have discovered that our differences couldn't be fixed. But in not trying, we will never know. She chose to not make the effort (supposedly she had already done everything to try to make it work), she chose for us not to have any kind of a relationship at all. 
The few times I have interacted with her and the topic comes up I always have to remind her that things are the way they are because she chose to make them that way - very much like what some others have said. Her actions belie anything that she has said. She can't seem to grasp that concept.


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## GA HEART

My exBF threw that in there. But he also asked if we could still [email protected] *eye roll*

I might could talk to him again one day. But I don't trust him. 

My exH never even bothered. After one weak attempt to hug me about 6 months after he tossed me and the kids aside failed, he decided I was public enemy number 1. 

Whatever.


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## skype

GA HEART said:


> My exBF threw that in there. But he also asked if we could still [email protected] *eye roll*


The selfishness of some people is truly astounding.


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## Dogbert

GA HEART said:


> My exBF threw that in there. But he also asked if we could still [email protected] *eye roll*


My ex-WW called me to tell me we could still have sex - another bone thrown at me. Needless to say, I respectfully declined.


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## BoyScout

I was having lunch with my adult son yesterday when the STBXW walked in the restaurant and pulled up a chair. I wanted so bad to ask her to leave, but we are in the middle of the D and I don't want to piss her off until she signs the agreement that is favorable to me. 

What I find a amazing is that she is able to act as if nothing has changed at all. The level of nonchalance she has about this stuns me. She wants to be my freind. She's said that if I'm ever out and need someone to drive me home to give her a call. Really?


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## ExtremelyConfused

The same situation happened to me. Even after all that he did to me, my ex told me that he still wanted to be friends. There is no way in hell that I wanted that. I cut him off completely from my life. You can't end a relationship based on a certain kind of intimacy and immediately transition to less intimate one. It's like trying to heal a burn while your hand's still in the fire.


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## Wolf1974

Sounds like my WW and yours could be best friends lol. Same thing in court she asked if we could still be friends. 

Umm you cheated on me, stabbed me in the back,tried to bankrupt me and hurt our kids ? Hmm much to think on

I think it just goes deeper into the cheater mentality that they did nothing wrong.....

But you're correct its good for a laugh


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## Wolf1974

Dogbert said:


> My ex-WW called me to tell me we could still have sex - another bone thrown at me. Needless to say, I respectfully declined.


Ewwww


I could never do that with my x again either. So gross


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## Dogbert

There are BS who are able to be sexually intimate with their WS but I am not one of those. Ego? Not really since I am not one of those rare men who places a great deal on a woman's virginity, or view a gf or wife's body as my property. What I do place a great value on is the concept of "US" and the exclusivity that it entails. An affair(s) obliterates "US" and makes living with the cheating spouse extremely stressful as well as emotionally, mentally and physically exhausting.

I have an aunt who was raped as a teenager and years later divorced her cheating husband. She told us that she couldn't live under the same roof with her cheating husband because for her it was akin to "living with my rapist". Of course I had no concept of what she meant until I also experienced the gut wrenching ordeal of spousal betrayal.


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## HeyMon

Dogbert said:


> My ex-WW called me to tell me we could still have sex - another bone thrown at me. Needless to say, I respectfully declined.


In response to both GA Heart and Dogbert.

The phrase that comes to mind is, "There is no shame in their game."


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## GusPolinski

Healer said:


> My exww still pushes for us to be friends too. "We were really good at that once". Why in the blue **** would I want a friend who treated me the way she did? With friends like that....
> 
> And the person she turned into - even if it weren't for the cheating and all the other horrible stuff - I wouldn't be friends with someone of her character anyway. It would never cross my mind to associate with someone like that. *Sadly, because of the kids, I cannot escape her. If it weren't for them I'd never see or speak to get again.*
> 
> It's crazy to look at her and think I was once her devoted, loving husband. No wonder I was on Zoloft all those years.


Maybe tell her ^that^.


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## Chuck71

My XW wanted us to not only be friends but wanted me to ask

her out.... in courthouse parking lot on D final. She was incredibly 

nice to me that day. Even offered to buy me lunch. I said no and went

to my rental duplex and drank a fifth of JD. More recent, my ex gf, UG,

informed me when I blew things up...she wanted us to remain friends, to be 

an advisor for her grown daughter, and stay in her daughter's adopted son's

life. Really.... you could still have that if you didn't shut down on me and 

refuse to say a thing about it until it was too late.... and none were the root

issues to begin with. But no.....I can't be friends with my XW and last gf... friends

don't break your heart........ or divorce you.


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## SamuraiJack

My ex is currently on the "let the past go" routine...which is another variant on the "can we be friends?" track

Both are designed to increase the comfort level of the leaving spouse. _Letting the past go_ and _being friends _both signal the offending spouse that they have somehow been "let off the hook" for transgressions they know are nagging at them.

Rallying cries like this are common enough, especially with greater transgressions like cheating, affairs, theft.

The problem with cries like this is that they make the leavee feel even worse because it minimalizes their (very often legitimate) pain. They often feel they have to do it because social pressure is brought to bear. References like "Its the right thing to do" and the classic "We need to do it for the kids". 

Recently I was introduced to a new classic called "Its what healthy people do"...in reference to "putting the past behind us."
I countered with repairing the marriage is what healthy people do.

Basically any of these are designed to bring social pressure to bear on you and make you knuckle under when you dont want to.
I say hold on to your anger and work with IT instead of working with the symptoms of that anger.

These people screwed you over.
If you wouldnt take this crap from a regular friend, why would you take it with an ex?


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## Chuck71

My running buddy from high school started seeing a gal

right about time we graduated. Three years later, married.

Was best man....two years later, it was over. They were the

coupled we all thought would last 50 years. Her "excuse" was

-We were just too young- .... what a croc. She cheated on him. 

Poor guy was a mess for a year. We hung out a lot that year.

I had just broken up with 2nd love. We crossed off a ton on our

bucket list. He is A-OK now but I will say.... he never again was the 

person he was up until 1994


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## 2ntnuf

SamuraiJack said:


> My ex is currently on the "let the past go" routine...which is another variant on the "can we be friends?" track
> 
> Both are designed to increase the comfort level of the leaving spouse. _Letting the past go_ and _being friends _both signal the offending spouse that they have somehow been "let off the hook" for transgressions they know are nagging at them.
> 
> Rallying cries like this are common enough, especially with greater transgressions like cheating, affairs, theft.
> 
> The problem with cries like this is that they make the leavee feel even worse because it minimalizes their (very often legitimate) pain. They often feel they have to do it because social pressure is brought to bear. References like "Its the right thing to do" and the classic "We need to do it for the kids".
> 
> Recently I was introduced to a new classic called "Its what healthy people do"...in reference to "putting the past behind us."
> I countered with repairing the marriage is what healthy people do.
> 
> Basically any of these are designed to bring social pressure to bear on you and make you knuckle under when you dont want to.
> I say hold on to your anger and work with IT instead of working with the symptoms of that anger.
> 
> These people screwed you over.
> If you wouldnt take this crap from a regular friend, why would you take it with an ex?


There have been plenty of forgiveness threads here. While I think they are useful, I've found that we can only forgive after we have worked on our issues and healed. I started one or more myself and deleted them, realising I am not yet capable of forgiving. That doesn't mean I want revenge or to see her punished. It means it would be more harmful to me, if I'm not healed, to falsely forgive, than it would be to let it ride until I'm ready.

I liken the above treatment to abuse. In my mind, they are one and the same. 

Forgiving takes some understanding of the situation and all that caused the problems that led to the most harmful actions.


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## 2ntnuf

Chuck71 said:


> My running buddy from high school started seeing a gal
> 
> right about time we graduated. Three years later, married.
> 
> Was best man....two years later, it was over. They were the
> 
> coupled we all thought would last 50 years. Her "excuse" was
> 
> -We were just too young- .... what a croc. She cheated on him.
> 
> Poor guy was a mess for a year. We hung out a lot that year.
> 
> I had just broken up with 2nd love. We crossed off a ton on our
> 
> bucket list. He is A-OK now but I will say.... *he never again was the
> 
> person he was up until 1994*


This usually happens, it seems, to the men and women who do not have the experience that their spouse has. I mean all phases of life experiences from sex to dating to just getting out and living and doing things for fun with many friends. 

I wonder a lot, what possessed a person with all that life experience to date and marry someone with such little experience? I think they thought they could get away with something and use that person for who they are. I figure they thought it would be easy to make them think they are really loved because they don't know how to catch them doing something wrong or even how to recognise red flags. 

These folks have no soul. There's a black hole where it should be and it sucks all the goodness out of anything that their poor ignorant spouse does in exhaustion to win and keep their love. Yeah, the less experienced spouse is a beta, but they don't even know, and beta isn't all bad. 

I figure it this way, it's impossible for everyone to be an alpha. "There can be only one", in reality. Everyone else is inferior to that one true alpha. There are steps down from there. If women only wanted an alpha, there would be fewer humans in the world, because that one alpha can only have sex so many times. So, it's all about compatibility. 

Know yourself and don't compromise. Just be the best that you can be today.


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## Chuck71

2ntnuf said:


> This usually happens, it seems, to the men and women who do not have the experience that their spouse has. I mean all phases of life experiences from sex to dating to just getting out and living and doing things for fun with many friends.
> 
> I wonder a lot, what possessed a person with all that life experience to date and marry someone with such little experience? I think they thought they could get away with something and use that person for who they are. I figure they thought it would be easy to make them think they are really loved because they don't know how to catch them doing something wrong or even how to recognise red flags.
> 
> These folks have no soul. There's a black hole where it should be and it sucks all the goodness out of anything that their poor ignorant spouse does in exhaustion to win and keep their love. Yeah, the less experienced spouse is a beta, but they don't even know, and beta isn't all bad.
> 
> I figure it this way, it's impossible for everyone to be an alpha. "There can be only one", in reality. Everyone else is inferior to that one true alpha. There are steps down from there. If women only wanted an alpha, there would be fewer humans in the world, because that one alpha can only have sex so many times. So, it's all about compatibility.
> 
> Know yourself and don't compromise. Just be the best that you can be today.


He and I graduated HS in '89. His blow up really changed how I looked at

any relationship. His XW and my 1st love were friends. We always did

crap together. After my 1st love departed, maybe I should have briefed him more.

But why should I bother him.....with my issues? But this was our John Wayne

phase. He would never break down in front of me but I could tell when he

was about to. I told him, ask me to exit the house for 30 minutes and 

I will. I was in the hospital in 2001.... guess who one of the nurses were?

She wanted to talk after work. I refused....... that is not my dive.

If she wanted to talk about old times, she should call my running buddy up.

We were brothers..... and brothers never do that.


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## SamuraiJack

2ntnuf said:


> There have been plenty of forgiveness threads here. While I think they are useful, I've found that we can only forgive after we have worked on our issues and healed. I started one or more myself and deleted them, realising I am not yet capable of forgiving. That doesn't mean I want revenge or to see her punished. It means it would be more harmful to me, if I'm not healed, to falsely forgive, than it would be to let it ride until I'm ready.
> 
> I liken the above treatment to abuse. In my mind, they are one and the same.
> 
> Forgiving takes some understanding of the situation and all that caused the problems that led to the most harmful actions.


Which treatment? The social pressure or tholding your anger and working directly with it?

Sorry I need some coffee..


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## 2ntnuf

Chuck71 said:


> He and I graduated HS in '89. His blow up really changed how I looked at
> 
> any relationship. His XW and my 1st love were friends. We always did
> 
> crap together. After my 1st love departed, maybe I should have briefed him more.
> 
> But why should I bother him.....with my issues? But this was our John Wayne
> 
> phase. He would never break down in front of me but I could tell when he
> 
> was about to. I told him, ask me to exit the house for 30 minutes and
> 
> I will. I was in the hospital in 2001.... guess who one of the nurses were?
> 
> She wanted to talk after work. I refused....... that is not my dive.
> 
> If she wanted to talk about old times, she should call my running buddy up.
> 
> We were brothers..... and brothers never do that.


Hey Chuck, I wasn't blaming you for anything. I was only giving an opinion. I didn't mean to attempt to say you were the reason this guy got hurt. My thoughts were, why did she ever get together with him when she was way more knowledgeable in the ways of life(EQ higher)? I'm sure she knew or at least had plenty of days she thought, "what just happened here? why doesn't he understand me? why am I always explaining things?". Maybe I give her to much credit for being able to recognise that kind of thing? Eh, who knows?


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## 2ntnuf

SamuraiJack said:


> Which treatment? The social pressure or tholding your anger and working directly with it?
> 
> Sorry I need some coffee..


When it comes from family, friends, the ex-wife, I consider it more direct than social pressure. When it comes from a group of folks who have influence in your life through "standards", I consider it social pressure. I think it's more abusive when it comes from those who are most trusted and have the most direct influence in one's life. I think it is less abusive and can be likened to bullying, which is abusive, when it comes from the others. I still think it all can be likened to abuse when there is no accompanying counsel that delves into and works on issues presenting themselves.


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## Chuck71

2ntnuf said:


> Hey Chuck, I wasn't blaming you for anything. I was only giving an opinion. I didn't mean to attempt to say you were the reason this guy got hurt. My thoughts were, why did she ever get together with him when she was way more knowledgeable in the ways of life(EQ higher)? I'm sure she knew or at least had plenty of days she thought, "what just happened here? why doesn't he understand me? why am I always explaining things?". Maybe I give her to much credit for being able to recognise that kind of thing? Eh, who knows?



no blame at all......


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## Ynot

I guess I am ambivalent over the issue. On the one hand we have all been burned. OTOH we have all been given a gift. Nothing in life is guaranteed, not even our relationships. The persons we were 5, 10, 15, 20 , 30 years ago is not the persons we are today. The same holds true of our exes. It is ludicrous to feel that our relationships are set in stone because of the way we or our SOs felt about each other years ago. People change, we have all changed. 

We may not like the way that change was imposed upon us, but the reality is - it was a necessary change. And that is the gift we should all accept. If our SO was cheating - there was a reason, perhaps it was us, perhaps it was them, maybe they were just as clueless about the repercussions as we were about the activity - who knows? If our SOs simply grew apart from us, there was a reason. Perhaps it was us, perhaps it was them. Regardless of the circumstances, there were reasons our marriages failed. In its failure is our opportunity to grow and learn and become better people - the gift! But only if we choose to accept it.

The pain of the failure will always sting, regardless of the cause. What we do with that pain is ultimately up to us. We don't need to accept our exes into our lives, but at the same time, we should recognize that they did what they did based on the same free will that brought them to us in the first place. 

I don't know, maybe I am just settling into an "acceptance" phase in my recovery.


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## 2ntnuf

Ynot said:


> I guess I am ambivalent over the issue. On the one hand we have all been burned. OTOH we have all been given a gift. Nothing in life is guaranteed, not even our relationships. The persons we were 5, 10, 15, 20 , 30 years ago is not the persons we are today. The same holds true of our exes. It is ludicrous to feel that our relationships are set in stone because of the way we or our SOs felt about each other years ago. People change, we have all changed.
> 
> We may not like the way that change was imposed upon us, but the reality is - it was a necessary change. And that is the gift we should all accept. If our SO was cheating - there was a reason, perhaps it was us, perhaps it was them, maybe they were just as clueless about the repercussions as we were about the activity - who knows? If our SOs simply grew apart from us, there was a reason. Perhaps it was us, perhaps it was them. Regardless of the circumstances, there were reasons our marriages failed. In its failure is our opportunity to grow and learn and become better people - the gift! But only if we choose to accept it.
> 
> The pain of the failure will always sting, regardless of the cause. What we do with that pain is ultimately up to us. We don't need to accept our exes into our lives, but at the same time, we should recognize that they did what they did based on the same free will that brought them to us in the first place.
> 
> I don't know, maybe I am just settling into an "acceptance" phase in my recovery.


Are you two friends after what happened? Who asked who to be friends? When did that occur? Was there infidelity in your marriage? If you are friends, what do you do together to keep that friendship alive? If not, what thoughts caused you to decide s/he wasn't your friend? 

Acceptance doesn't come from thin air. It comes from realisations properly based in true facts. How did you come to accept what life is now? Is acceptance just a nice term for rug-sweeping? Why or why not?


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## SamuraiJack

Ynot said:


> I guess I am ambivalent over the issue. On the one hand we have all been burned. OTOH we have all been given a gift. Nothing in life is guaranteed, not even our relationships. The persons we were 5, 10, 15, 20 , 30 years ago is not the persons we are today. The same holds true of our exes. It is ludicrous to feel that our relationships are set in stone because of the way we or our SOs felt about each other years ago. People change, we have all changed.
> 
> We may not like the way that change was imposed upon us, but the reality is - it was a necessary change. And that is the gift we should all accept. If our SO was cheating - there was a reason, perhaps it was us, perhaps it was them, maybe they were just as clueless about the repercussions as we were about the activity - who knows? If our SOs simply grew apart from us, there was a reason. Perhaps it was us, perhaps it was them. Regardless of the circumstances, there were reasons our marriages failed. In its failure is our opportunity to grow and learn and become better people - the gift! But only if we choose to accept it.
> 
> The pain of the failure will always sting, regardless of the cause. What we do with that pain is ultimately up to us. We don't need to accept our exes into our lives, but at the same time, we should recognize that they did what they did based on the same free will that brought them to us in the first place.
> 
> I don't know, maybe I am just settling into an "acceptance" phase in my recovery.


Growing apart naturally I can see and accept easily.
But what if your spouse was drifting away, knew they were drifting, did nothing to stop it, and deliberately kept it from you until they could execute their exit plan?

When people purposefully deceive you like that...where can there be trust?


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## Ynot

2ntnuf said:


> Are you two friends after what happened? Who asked who to be friends? When did that occur? Was there infidelity in your marriage? If you are friends, what do you do together to keep that friendship alive? If not, what thoughts caused you to decide s/he wasn't your friend?
> 
> Acceptance doesn't come from thin air. It comes from realisations properly based in true facts. How did you come to accept what life is now? Is acceptance just a nice term for rug-sweeping? Why or why not?


Actually we are not friends. She left me. She walked away from a 25 year relationship and I as I said I am deeply hurt and stung by it. At the same time, I cannot blame her. She came to our relationship by her own free will and as a human being she has every right to leave it the same way. As does every one of our exes. 
My point wasn't that we should accept our exes back into our lives as friends, although we may choose to do that at some point. My point I guess was in regards to the general attitude expressed here that our exes should know better or should have behaved differently. But the reality is that they are human beings just like you or I are. They change, just like we do. Many times the reason we end up breaking up is precisely because of that very thing itself - change.
As for acceptance, no that is not "sweeping" things under the rug. It is simply recognizing that change happens. When I think back to who I was 25 years ago to who I am now, my Self as changed dramatically. How is it not possible that my exes did as well? I have had 3 major life changing events in the time we were together. Each effected me dramatically and altered the original relationship. In the end the cumulative changes were too much as we grew apart. I was not happy about that but I can't think of how I could have changed differently. I was not happy with the way our relationship changed. I thought we could have worked it out. She decided differently,. If that is what she thought, I can only assume she had her reasons. Ultimately all I can do is accept that. Because I know that nothing I do, nothing I say, nothing I think is going to change that. That is not sweeping anything under the rug, it is simply recognizing reality for what it is. 
Now having said that, it was in fact a gift. I am now free to allow my changes to continue without any compromises to benefit the relationship. I am free to come to my natural conclusions without taking into consideration some one who has already form their own conclusions that are not in alignment with my own. I have not fully accepted my gift, as I still have lingering emotions, memories and common dreams. But I am working on it and trying to move forward.
I have no clue as to whether or not my ex and I may someday become friends. Perhaps, perhaps not. But as a creature of free will myself, I cannot blame her for exercising her own free will. To do otherwise is to be a hypocrite.


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## Satya

My ex asked just before I started the divorce petition if we could stay friends. My head was so messed up at the time, but I had enough sense to say, "I don't know" or "maybe." One of those.... It was definitely not the affirmative. 

Once I moved away, I gradually detached, emails were less and strictly business. No emotion. Diplomatic, respectful, not overly caring. Eventually I faded communication out and it was dead for a long time... 

Just after meeting my SO (I swear ex's have radar that detects your progress even thousands of miles away...) I get an email, and to paraphrase, "heeey, long time no chat, how's it going?" Well, I shut that down immediately, was robotic, not rude, & said there was no further desire for contact and have a nice life. 

Now my ex and I started as best friends and married young. Maybe going back to friends works for some, but definitely not for me given my circumstances. Friendship status with my ex would be like spraying Cologne on a turd.


----------



## Ynot

SamuraiJack said:


> Growing apart naturally I can see and accept easily.
> But what if your spouse was drifting away, knew they were drifting, did nothing to stop it, and deliberately kept it from you until they could execute their exit plan?
> 
> When people purposefully deceive you like that...where can there be trust?


I agree, which is why I said friendship may or may not happen either now or sometime in the future. In fact my ex did exactly as you have stated. She had started drifting away a few years before she pulled the trigger. 

Sometimes we think we can change and the other will simply follow. But that is not always the case. Sometimes we change and the other is simply unable to catch up or even recognize it for what it is (as was the case with me). 

Our children were grown, we were left to our own. Daily habits changed slowly almost unnoticed until eventually we were two separate beings tied together by a commitment made 24 years before. 

I felt something was wrong. I assumed it had to do with my feelings of the empty nest, or my mid life crisis. I did not recognize the relationship was in crisis. This despite my crystal clear hind sight in regards to the signs. I imagined that these were just part of the day to day ups and downs of a relationship. I am sure she felt much the same. At some point she simply decided my changes and her changes were too much to overcome. I disagreed, but I cannot make her think as I did or do. I cannot make her act as I want. All I can do accept what she did and move on.

I have no choice other than to accept the fact that she gave me a gift. I can blame her, I can berate her, I can curse her (and I have done all three) But I cannot allow what she did to infect me. All I am saying is that people change - you, I and every single other person in the world have changed, are changing and will continue to change. Life is about change. 

Change is hard, especially when we are the target of that change. But change is inevitable. We don't have to agree with the change but in the end we have no choice but to accept it. To do otherwise is to reject reality.


----------



## Dogbert

Ynot, you are more than welcome to have the "gift" my xWW gave me. Just send me your mailing address so I can FedEx it to ya.


----------



## Ynot

I have written a lot about change in my past few posts. Generally I think from the perspective of the Self and the self having to accept it. But the other side of that is the perspective of the Other. We assume our changes to be good and take it for granted that the Other should be pleased by our changes. But sometimes, while our change may be good for our Self, the Other may not agree. The Other is doing the very same thing - changing for it self. When the change in the Other is in conflict to our Self we tend to react (just as the Other does in reverse). 

Two living breathing human beings exercising free will may in fact choose to change in similar fashion that is in agreement with each other. But that is not always the case which is typically why separation and divorce occur. 

Sometimes we choose to bury our Self and comply with the wishes of the Other. Sometimes the Other chooses to comply with the wishes of our Self. Sometimes the issue doesn't really matter and the change and compliance goes unnoticed or does not effect the relationship. 

But other changes are more major and while we or our Other may make the effort, the result is unhappiness and dissatisfaction. In cases like this the change is simply to great for either side to fully accept.

Perhaps I am simply trying to rationalize my reality into a concept that I can accept so that I can move on with my life?


----------



## Ynot

Dogbert said:


> Ynot, you are more than welcome to have the "gift" my xWW gave me. Just send me your mailing address so I can FedEx it to ya.


That is some major league BS right there! Maybe you should read what I wrote. I am not excusing anything that your ex may have done. I am simply trying to offer you a perspective that you have been given a gift. Are you that blind or unthinking to believe that your ex did not do you a favor? He/she could have remained with you, uncommitted to the relationship, simply going thru the motions. Instead they outed themselves and now you are free to find someone who will love you the way you deserve to be loved. 

Regardless of the circumstance, YOU WERE GIVEN A GIFT. Choose to accept it and become a better person or choose to ignore it an remain forever negatively altered by it.

You don't have to accept your ex as a friend and no one especially me ever said you can or should.


----------



## SamuraiJack

Perhaps it would sound more logical to some if you say "you were given an opportunity to wake up and really do some work on yourself."?


----------



## Ynot

SamuraiJack said:


> Perhaps it would sound more logical to some if you say "you were given an opportunity to wake up and really do some work on yourself."?


Perhaps - that is exactly what the gift is - the opportunity to work on yourself.


----------



## 2ntnuf

SamuraiJack said:


> Growing apart naturally I can see and accept easily.
> But what if your spouse was drifting away, knew they were drifting, did nothing to stop it, and deliberately kept it from you until they could execute their exit plan?
> 
> When people purposefully deceive you like that...where can there be trust?


You describe how I felt/feel. I'm sure she would, well pretty sure, she would say something quite the opposite. This is part of what I am working on. It involves me finding out what it is I did wrong, so that I can grow. It also involves an understanding of who she is, so that I can accept what is, whole-heartedly. The easiest way to do that, would be to actually be friends. The problem is, if we are friends, why can't we be lovers, if we once were? Therefore, with hindsight, I don't believe it is possible to be friends, since that would mean we likely never would have gotten divorced. We were both adults when we decided to marry. We were not forced, which means we chose each other and since we personally had sex before we got married, many times, unsatisfactory sex could not be an excuse, only dishonesty. Therefore, there can be no real friendship. Friends do not lie in such a manner, in my estimation. Maybe a white lie to keep from hurting feelings with no further repercussions could be expected, but don't all lies harm in some way? I think they foster unrealistic expectations and unearned self-confidence. It's a very dangerous road to travel in a marriage.


----------



## Jung_admirer

Ynot said:


> I have written a lot about change in my past few posts. Generally I think from the perspective of the Self and the self having to accept it. But the other side of that is the perspective of the Other. We assume our changes to be good and take it for granted that the Other should be pleased by our changes. But sometimes, while our change may be good for our Self, the Other may not agree. The Other is doing the very same thing - changing for it self. When the change in the Other is in conflict to our Self we tend to react (just as the Other does in reverse).
> 
> Two living breathing human beings exercising free will may in fact choose to change in similar fashion that is in agreement with each other. But that is not always the case which is typically why separation and divorce occur.
> 
> Sometimes we choose to bury our Self and comply with the wishes of the Other. Sometimes the Other chooses to comply with the wishes of our Self. Sometimes the issue doesn't really matter and the change and compliance goes unnoticed or does not effect the relationship.
> 
> But other changes are more major and while we or our Other may make the effort, the result is unhappiness and dissatisfaction. In cases like this the change is simply to great for either side to fully accept.
> 
> Perhaps I am simply trying to rationalize my reality into a concept that I can accept so that I can move on with my life?


There are times when someone walks out the front door without looking back (WAW). There are times when someone burns the house to the ground as they walk out the front door (exit affair). 

I believe the "Can we be friends" question might be perceived differently given these different circumstances.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Ynot said:


> That is some major league BS right there! Maybe you should read what I wrote. I am not excusing anything that your ex may have done. I am simply trying to offer you a perspective that you have been given a gift. Are you that blind or unthinking to believe that your ex did not do you a favor? He/she could have remained with you, uncommitted to the relationship, simply going thru the motions. Instead they outed themselves and now you are free to find someone who will love you the way you deserve to be loved.
> 
> Regardless of the circumstance, YOU WERE GIVEN A GIFT. Choose to accept it and become a better person or choose to ignore it an remain forever negatively altered by it.
> 
> You don't have to accept your ex as a friend and no one especially me ever said you can or should.


"Everyone" talks of change and how we change all of our lives, if we want to learn and grow and become healthier and better. What bothers me is a few things. Why did they change so much in the first place and what or who initiated that change? When we talk of change in different directions, why did that happen? Isn't it likely they just didn't know who they were, if they are the one who changed drastically? Isn't it then, their own fault they were not satisfied? Didn't they then perceive things as much more difficult to handle than they actually were? Isn't that their problem and directly due to the fact that they realised they weren't the person they thought they were? Isn't it likely then, that as they grew to understand themselves better, they made their spouses life more and more miserable by default? I don't think they would necessarily mean to at that point, but just did not understand how to be the person they were any more. It seems they would likely do anything they could to feel like they were understood at that point and someone else, who seemed to understand them and give them a shoulder to cry on, would be so refreshing and comforting, they would naturally fall into their arms in gratitude and perceived lust. 

That's one hell of a lot of misplaced energy that married spouse put into themselves and someone else. When two get married, they are committing themselves to each other and any growth within the marriage is supposed to be mutual. They are making a commitment with the vows to help each other in all things. One usually stops helping the other when they change. The other stops when they perceive that change, but can't put their finger on what is happening, just the feeling they are not longer respected or loved. 

When that person who changes, decides to go off on their own and change without inviting their spouse, they have broken the vows. Those may be radical thoughts, but for now, it's what I believe to be true. 

I do not disagree with you in substance. I do think it is an opportunity to learn and grow when someone gives you your freedom. It is also a huge cop-out, when it goes down with infidelity or without any real solid attempts at understanding each other. Proof of that is the few who divorce on good terms. They have worked on the marriage openly and honestly. There was likely no infidelity, and the two came to the sad and very difficult conclusion that they just could not make it, likely while in counseling, unless they are so able to detach their personal lives and feelings that they can discuss issues that need attention. That is likely a pipe dream, that last one.


----------



## Chuck71

Satya said:


> Just after meeting my SO (I swear ex's have radar that detects your progress even thousands of miles away...) I get an email.


:rofl: Ain't that the freaking truth!


----------



## Dogbert

Ynot said:


> That is some major league BS right there! Maybe you should read what I wrote. I am not excusing anything that your ex may have done. I am simply trying to offer you a perspective that you have been given a gift. Are you that blind or unthinking to believe that your ex did not do you a favor? He/she could have remained with you, uncommitted to the relationship, simply going thru the motions. Instead they outed themselves and now you are free to find someone who will love you the way you deserve to be loved.
> 
> Regardless of the circumstance, YOU WERE GIVEN A GIFT. Choose to accept it and become a better person or choose to ignore it an remain forever negatively altered by it.
> 
> You don't have to accept your ex as a friend and no one especially me ever said you can or should.


Chill my man. I was just messin' with ya. We're good. 

Your viewpoint is a valid one, it's just that it caught me off guard for a minute.


----------



## Ynot

Jung_admirer said:


> There are times when someone walks out the front door without looking back (WAW). There are times when someone burns the house to the ground as they walk out the front door (exit affair).
> 
> I believe the "Can we be friends" question might be perceived differently given these different circumstances.


As I have said several times - nobody has said you MUST or SHOULD be friends. All I am saying is that regardless of the circumstances it is ludicrous to not recognize that people change. Some for the good others not so much. You can sit here and say how it should have been, but the fact is that it was. We can't change how people think, act or feel not now, nor in the future or past. My ex did not cheat on me, but I am still not able to be friends with her. That fact does not preclude me from understanding despite my deepest wound and pain that what she did happened for a reason. Some here are having problems separating emotional feelings from rational thought. It won't be the emotions that will make you a better person, it will be using the God-given ability to reason that will.


----------



## Ynot

Dogbert said:


> Chill my man. I was just messin' with ya. We're good.
> 
> Your viewpoint is a valid one, it's just that it caught me off guard for a minute.


Cool!


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Jung_admirer said:


> There are times when someone walks out the front door without looking back (WAW). There are times when someone burns the house to the ground as they walk out the front door (exit affair).
> 
> I believe the "Can we be friends" question might be perceived differently given these different circumstances.


Both involve betrayal. The way I approach it is this. Is this the type of person I would be friends with knowing what I know about them? The answer...no. I don't need friends like my ex. They suck the life out of you. Regardless of the history between us, my ex now goes into the normal "pool of possible friends"......and she fails that test, miserably.

People can change (a WAW), but they can try their change out on others, not me.


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## Dogbert

Dedicated2Her said:


> *Both involve betrayal.* The way I approach it is this. Is this the type of person I would be friends with knowing what I know about them? The answer...no. I don't need friends like my ex. They suck the life out of you. Regardless of the history between us, my ex now goes into the normal "pool of possible friends"......and she fails that test, miserably.
> 
> People can change (a WAW), but they can try their change out on others, not me.


I agree with you except the part of a WAW (no affair) departure being betrayal. Could you elaborate?


----------



## Jung_admirer

Ynot said:


> As I have said several times - nobody has said you MUST or SHOULD be friends. A*ll I am saying is that regardless of the circumstances it is ludicrous to not recognize that people change.* Some for the good others not so much. You can sit here and say how it should have been, but the fact is that it was. We can't change how people think, act or feel not now, nor in the future or past. My ex did not cheat on me, but I am still not able to be friends with her. That fact does not preclude me from understanding despite my deepest wound and pain that what she did happened for a reason. Some here are having problems separating emotional feelings from rational thought. It won't be the emotions that will make you a better person, it will be using the God-given ability to reason that will.


Thinking about this .. People discover motive and opportunity to express who they truly are despite previous constraints. This isn't change .. it's simple an honest expression of who they are as opposed to a false persona they previously maintained. The fact that you removed your mask doesn't mean you have changed, it means you have stopped pretending to be something you are not.


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## Regretf

Dogbert said:


> I agree with you except the part of a WAW (no affair) departure being betrayal. Could you elaborate?


I would say he's referring to somebody that's been married for a long time and was generally unhappy but never expressed their unhappiness or not clearly and the other spouse gets caught offguard not knowing what to do or react. Of course there's the other side of the story of the WAW thinking that she DID express her concern so it's a two way sword.


----------



## Regretf

Jung_admirer said:


> Thinking about this .. People discover motive and opportunity to express who they truly are despite previous constraints. This isn't change .. it's simple an honest expression of who they are as opposed to a false persona they previously maintained. The fact that you removed your mask doesn't mean you have changed, it means you have stopped pretending to be something you are not.


You could be married to somebody for long and not really know that person, humans are so complex. You see somebody acting out at the end of the M in different ways that you expected or knew they could act and you wonder what happend to them? why they changed so much?, maybe that was them all along and you didn0't know.

In adversity we see the true character of others.


----------



## GusPolinski

SamuraiJack said:


> My ex is currently on the "let the past go" routine...which is another variant on the "can we be friends?" track


Her: "Let the past go."

You: "That's actually a great idea. And, seeing as how you're a huge part of my past... later!"

Her: ...


----------



## 2ntnuf

GusPolinski said:


> Her: "Let the past go."
> 
> You: "That's actually a great idea. And, seeing as how you're a huge part of my past... later!"
> 
> Her: ...


:lol: No ****...


----------



## Ynot

Jung_admirer said:


> Thinking about this .. People discover motive and opportunity to express who they truly are despite previous constraints. This isn't change .. it's simple an honest expression of who they are as opposed to a false persona they previously maintained. The fact that you removed your mask doesn't mean you have changed, it means you have stopped pretending to be something you are not.


It may not even be that the mask has come off as much as the "lighting" has allowed the previously unnoticed features to be seen. In counselling I was talking about my ex one day. The counselor noted that my wife had no true male role model involved in her early life. Her father and mother were divorced, her father moved away and rarely saw her. Her mother was a serial dater. She remarried briefly and divorced the guy just as quickly. Twice I think. My ex married early to get out of the house. She divorced her first in five years. When I met her 25 years ago she was just going through that divorce. I was stable, and appeared to have everything she needed at the time. We had a child together and I raised her son as my own. Once the kids were gone a different light illuminated our relationship. Absent the kids she didn't need me anymore. Yes it sounds harsh and it was, but it makes sense. The bottom line is that if she doesn't want to be with me, I am better off finding someone who does.


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## 2ntnuf

Ynot said:


> It may not even be that the mask has come off as much as the "lighting" has allowed the previously unnoticed features to be seen. In counselling I was talking about my ex one day. The counselor noted that my wife had no true male role model involved in her early life. Her father and mother were divorced, her father moved away and rarely saw her. Her mother was a serial dater. She remarried briefly and divorced the guy just as quickly. Twice I think. My ex married early to get out of the house. She divorced her first in five years. When I met her 25 years ago she was just going through that divorce. I was stable, and appeared to have everything she needed at the time. We had a child together and I raised her son as my own. Once the kids were gone a different light illuminated our relationship. Absent the kids she didn't need me anymore. Yes it sounds harsh and it was, but it makes sense. The bottom line is that if she doesn't want to be with me, I am better off finding someone who does.


And, I'm not saying you are wrong. That is the simple answer and it is true. Few who were unfaithful or who decided to divorce, wanted their spouse. 

It was never enough of an answer for me. I guess because I loved her so deeply, and actually did try very hard to make it, coupled with receiving from her what I never had before, that caused so much confusion for me, and made a simple answer impossible to accept. Add to that, the totally opposite character she displayed and the reality of what went on that I had no knowledge of, but did consider at times due to red flags, and she created a huge mess, just by such drastic change. 

The whole truth is, as far as I can figure at this stage, she did not know herself and that is exemplified in what you posted. It's just that you were more able to handle that little bit of obvious reality and did not need more. It's almost a nonchalant attitude about the ease of finding someone more compatible combined with an enviable ability, which many men, including me don't possess. I've never been able to jump from one woman to another. I guess I didn't have the looks, money, intelligence or something, whatever it is, that would attract many women, even just enough to get them to converse with me. Yes, that's on me, to some extent, and some of it is genetics.


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## Ynot

2ntnuf said:


> And, I'm not saying you are wrong. That is the simple answer and it is true. Few who were unfaithful or who decided to divorce, wanted their spouse.
> 
> It was never enough of an answer for me. I guess because I loved her so deeply, and actually did try very hard to make it, coupled with receiving from her what I never had before, that caused so much confusion for me, and made a simple answer impossible to accept. Add to that, the totally opposite character she displayed and the reality of what went on that I had no knowledge of, but did consider at times due to red flags, and she created a huge mess, just by such drastic change.
> 
> The whole truth is, as far as I can figure at this stage, she did not know herself and that is exemplified in what you posted. It's just that you were more able to handle that little bit of obvious reality and did not need more. It's almost a nonchalant attitude about the ease of finding someone more compatible combined with an enviable ability, which many men, including me don't possess. I've never been able to jump from one woman to another. I guess I didn't have the looks, money, intelligence or something, whatever it is, that would attract many women, even just enough to get them to converse with me. Yes, that's on me, to some extent, and some of it is genetics.


Heck man, you give me way too much credit than I deserve. I haven't handled it well. In fact my emotional side has gotten the better of me so many times I can't even keep track anymore. But when I am able to step back and think rationally I keep coming to the same conclusion I feel much better and happier when my emotions and reasoning are in sync with each other. Right now that isn't the case, but I know if I allow myself to keep asking why over and over again I will never find the sync. I need to find a way to rationalize what happened in a way that placates my emotions. Still trying to convince myself.


----------



## Ribbit

Yes, I really don't get a lot of this hippie mumbo jumbo you're spouting. It sounds like a lot of excuse making. 

People change and have the ability to exercise free-will in their determination to leave the marriage because they are different people blah blah blah. 

A marriage is supposed to be about making a concerted effort to grow together, to be a team. The fact of the matter is, "people change" is far too often code for, "I didn't really want to put in the effort, and now I'm leaving, because I'm self-centered and immature."

Oh hey, I've changed. When I first married you, I didn't have a hot young secretary I wanted to bang. Now I do. How could I have anticipated this? I'm sure you'll understand why I'm leaving, and hold no grudges. I'm a different person, and merely exercising my natural law free-will to bang my hot young secretary. Don't take it personally.


----------



## JustFree

Ribbit said:


> Yes, I really don't get a lot of this hippie mumbo jumbo you're spouting. It sounds like a lot of excuse making.
> 
> People change and have the ability to exercise free-will in their determination to leave the marriage because they are different people blah blah blah.
> 
> A marriage is supposed to be about making a concerted effort to grow together, to be a team. The fact of the matter is, "people change" is far too often code for, "I didn't really want to put in the effort, and now I'm leaving, because I'm self-centered and immature."
> 
> Oh hey, I've changed. When I first married you, I didn't have a hot young secretary I wanted to bang. Now I do. How could I have anticipated this? I'm sure you'll understand why I'm leaving, and hold no grudges. I'm a different person, and merely exercising my natural law free-will to bang my hot young secretary. Don't take it personally.


So True. Maybe getting into the marriage is taken too lightly


----------



## Ynot

Wow, I really understand the bitterness, but it doesn't change the fact that people change. If any of you can truly say that they did not change over the course of their marriage I will flat out call you a liar. There is nothing new age about it. It is a simple fact of reality.


----------



## Ribbit

Ynot said:


> Wow, I really understand the bitterness, but it doesn't change the fact that people change. If any of you can truly say that they did not change over the course of their marriage I will flat out call you a liar. There is nothing new age about it. It is a simple fact of reality.



You just keep saying "People change" as though it is in any way meaningful. 

To the extent you are saying that it means people leave marriages because they change, well, yeah. That's true. It's also pretty pointless to say. It's obvious.

To the extent you are saying it is some type of justification, well, it's just wrong. I find it pretty rare that people change in good ways (for example, become less selfish, more altruistic, more concerned about their family than their own need for flattery, etc.) that somehow cause them to leave a marriage.

Instead, the "change" usually boils down to self-centered bull**** about pursuit of personal happiness, etc.


----------



## Dogbert

It may not be true that people actually "change" but that perhaps their true self finally comes to the surface, and it is often not a very pretty sight.


----------



## SamuraiJack

Ribbit said:


> You just keep saying "People change" as though it is in any way meaningful.
> 
> To the extent you are saying that it means people leave marriages because they change, well, yeah. That's true. It's also pretty pointless to say. It's obvious.
> 
> To the extent you are saying it is some type of justification, well, it's just wrong. I find it pretty rare that people change in good ways (for example, become less selfish, more altruistic, more concerned about their family than their own need for flattery, etc.) that somehow cause them to leave a marriage.
> 
> Instead, the "change" usually boils down to self-centered bull**** about pursuit of personal happiness, etc.


Ahhhh...I see you have met my ex-wife...

She was "unfullfilled and wanted to lead a life about her happiness."

To this day, Im still trying to figure out why she couldnt have doe this without ripping apart our family.


----------



## hope4family

SamuraiJack said:


> Ahhhh...I see you have met my ex-wife...
> 
> She was "unfullfilled and wanted to lead a life about her happiness."
> 
> To this day, Im still trying to figure out why she couldnt have doe this without ripping apart our family.


Sounds bitter. 

I'd say the same thing though, and I do not see it as bitter. I'd see it as the reality of the particular circumstance. 

My ex asked me last week if I would move to the beach. So she could live there and we could raise our son together but separate. 

SMH. It's amazing how, even while divorced, she wants to put the burden of her individual happiness on me. For by saying "I cannot do that." I have denied her happiness.


----------



## SamuraiJack

hope4family said:


> Sounds bitter.
> 
> I'd say the same thing though, and I do not see it as bitter. I'd see it as the reality of the particular circumstance.
> 
> My ex asked me last week if I would move to the beach. So she could live there and we could raise our son together but separate.
> 
> SMH. It's amazing how, even while divorced, she wants to put the burden of her individual happiness on me. For by saying "I cannot do that." I have denied her happiness.


I prefer to think of it as "ironically amused in a tragic way".
Im sure the Germans have a word for it. 

Its hard to convey the irony through just a posting..


----------



## Healer

Dogbert said:


> It may not be true that people actually "change" but that perhaps their true self finally comes to the surface, and it is often not a very pretty sight.


This. My exww struggled to be someone she wasn't. We were both young when married and I was a struggling musician, she a waitress. I turned into corporate guy and started wearing suits and making good money, associating with smart, sophisticated, successful people. She resented it and told me so while she was cheating (I didn't know of course). "I resent your job, I resent your success". I wasn't working crazy hours - home by 6 every night and never went out...so it wasn't that.

She had an affair with a coke dealer/gang member. She actually told me, when we were attempting (false) R, that she went to him because she felt he was her "peer". Wow. Your peer is a thug...a wanted criminal. Yup. And after I ended R, she went back to that lifestyle and you could tell that's just who she really is. She was faking being anything but. She still works in a bar, is now covered in tattoos (including on her knuckles) and is marrying a bouncer. That's her true self. She's still insecure as hell, but she's at least now in her natural habitat. And me? I'm dating MY peer. A corporate gal, sophisticated, successful, smart...and classy. 

My ex didn't change - she just took off her mask.


----------



## Wolf1974

Ynot said:


> Wow, I really understand the bitterness, but it doesn't change the fact that people change. If any of you can truly say that they did not change over the course of their marriage I will flat out call you a liar. There is nothing new age about it. It is a simple fact of reality.


Fine sign me up for the liar category then I guess, my feelings about my wife, marriage, children and relationships didn't change at all during our time together......until she cheated.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Dogbert said:


> I agree with you except the part of a WAW (no affair) departure being betrayal. Could you elaborate?


If a person is a wayward or walk away spouse, they are committing an act of betrayal....regardless of the existence of an affair. I would define a wayward spouse as someone who is not committed to acting in love in a marriage. You can tell someone you are unhappy or this/that needs to change, however, if you do not do your own actions to rectify the situation, you are part of the problem. Love is a verb...it is an action. If you refuse to do the actions, you are betraying your vows. You are betraying the marriage. It just is what it is. 

I don't think I was doing the actions I needed to do in my marriage until my ex brought things up, however, I rectified that and became a person that I can be proud of. While she hung in for another 2 years, she didn't do anything to fix the relationship while I had to do the heavy lifting. That is a betrayal. I have compassion for her, and I feel bad that she hasn't shown herself capable of showing perseverance in life. But, she still betrayed our marriage. I will always have a love for her because of our history, but to allow someone to be a part of my life who is capable of no effort to fix such an important thing such as a marriage with children is just not prudent.


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## WasDecimated

> Wow, I really understand the bitterness, but it doesn't change the fact that people change. If any of you can truly say that they did not change over the course of their marriage I will flat out call you a liar. There is nothing new age about it. It is a simple fact of reality.


Sign me up for the liar category too. My values, morals, and integrity didn't change one bit. I understood marriage meant commitment, work, patience, sacrifice, perseverance...and communication. I was in it until the end. The end was her new-found lying, cheating, and general dishonesty. whether is was her changing or taking her mask off, I will never know.


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## 2ntnuf

I know I have changed. It wasn't until this all happened, though. It took me to new lows of self-loathing, hatred, mistrust, and confusion. I know I will not be the same man I was when her and I met. Those are real changes forced by mental cruelty from her and many others who were new in her life, regulars in mine and her's, and old in mine. This is change. So far, the good has not outweighed the bad. I'm slowly working on it. Who knows where I will end up? I don't know who I am any more. I'm reestablishing my likes, dislikes, boundaries, deal-breakers, and all of my thoughts. I have questioned long-held beliefs which were taught by my parents and siblings. No stone has been left unturned. I am afraid where I never was before. I have anxiety attacks that cripple thinking and memories. This is real change. 

I don't think true change comes without some life-altering events.


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## Dedicated2Her

2ntnuf said:


> I know I have changed. It wasn't until this all happened, though. It took me to new lows of self-loathing, hatred, mistrust, and confusion. I know I will not be the same man I was when her and I met. Those are real changes forced by mental cruelty from her and many others who were new in her life, regulars in mine and her's, and old in mine. This is change. So far, the good has not outweighed the bad. I'm slowly working on it. Who knows where I will end up? I don't know who I am any more. I'm reestablishing my likes, dislikes, boundaries, deal-breakers, and all of my thoughts. I have questioned long-held beliefs which were taught by my parents and siblings. No stone has been left unturned. I am afraid where I never was before. I have anxiety attacks that cripple thinking and memories. This is real change.
> 
> I don't think true change comes without some life-altering events.


It's only at the precipice that we evolve. True growth or development is only gained through pain. The pain I felt for the first year of my journey was extreme, however, it led me down the path of growth.


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## Ynot

To those who choose to classify themselves as liars, all I can say is I pity you, because if you haven't changed, you haven't lived.
So none of you took a new job, made new friends, took up new hobbies, had children, moved? Each and every one of those everyday occurrences change us. You may not want to believe it, but they do. 
I went from a corporate guy to being self employed. My business changed. My ex went from being a stay at home mom to a corporate gal. My children grew up, went to college and moved out. Each and every one of those things changed who we are and what we became.
I almost died, I filed bankruptcy, I went thru the empty nest. My ex went from being a part time secretary to working a full time+ job. She went from focusing on children to focusing on a career. So please do not tell me that you did not change. Because as I have said you either change or you die. 
You may very well be or had been completely focused on your marriage and your family, I know I was. But that doesn't mean you didn't change. It doesn't mean your SO or ex hasn't changed. Sometime the changes are in sync with each other. Sometimes they are not. 
Often time it is your very own efforts that prompts change in your SO or ex. I went from being a corporate stooge, working 60+hours a week and driving an hour each way everyday, to being self employed, just so I could focus on my family and become the best dad I could be. I succeeded at that. My ex never really accepted that and so began her own pursuit of the pay check. Neither she, not my family ever suffered because of me being self employed, but she needed the security of a pay check, while I desired the freedom and control of my own business. I was focused on my family and so was she. But our goals incompatible.


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## Regretf

Ynot said:


> To those who choose to classify themselves as liars, all I can say is I pity you, because if you haven't changed, you haven't lived.
> So none of you took a new job, made new friends, took up new hobbies, had children, moved? Each and every one of those everyday occurrences change us. You may not want to believe it, but they do.
> I went from a corporate guy to being self employed. My business changed. My ex went from being a stay at home mom to a corporate gal. My children grew up, went to college and moved out. Each and every one of those things changed who we are and what we became.
> I almost died, I filed bankruptcy, I went thru the empty nest. My ex went from being a part time secretary to working a full time+ job. She went from focusing on children to focusing on a career. So please do not tell me that you did not change. Because as I have said you either change or you die.
> You may very well be or had been completely focused on your marriage and your family, I know I was. But that doesn't mean you didn't change. It doesn't mean your SO or ex hasn't changed. Sometime the changes are in sync with each other. Sometimes they are not.
> Often time it is your very own efforts that prompts change in your SO or ex. I went from being a corporate stooge, working 60+hours a week and driving an hour each way everyday, to being self employed, just so I could focus on my family and become the best dad I could be. I succeeded at that. My ex never really accepted that and so began her own pursuit of the pay check. Neither she, not my family ever suffered because of me being self employed, but she needed the security of a pay check, while I desired the freedom and control of my own business. I was focused on my family and so was she. But our goals incompatible.


Yes, what you are describing are changes, we all suffer changes in our lives throughout as our enviroment changes.

Maybe the "changes" other are describing has to do more with changing who you are, your core, your essence as human being. I don't think people change unless there are pivotal things happening to you, then you "adapt".

Sometimes whe do not know people, only with adversity do we erally see someone's true character.


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## 2ntnuf

Regretf said:


> Yes, what you are describing are changes, we all suffer changes in our lives throughout as our enviroment changes.
> 
> Maybe the "changes" other are describing has to do more with changing who you are, your core, your essence as human being. I don't think people change unless there are pivotal things happening to you, then you "adapt".
> 
> Sometimes whe do not know people, only with adversity do we erally see someone's true character.


Yeah, that's what I mean. I've never changed so fully, but I never had as much adversity all at one time. I even lost my mother through cancer and dementia through this time. My dad's been gone for almost thirty years. I made the big five oh(50 yrs old) which was super tough being alone. I had to face challenges alone that I never had before. I had...whatever. You get the picture. It was not just we argued too much and didn't have sex and it was done. I was fully in this, but pretty much believed things were going to work out and life was set till death. Naive, blind, overconfident, or any other words I can't think of now, it wasn't simple at all, for me. I have no clue what she went through. None.


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## Regretf

We are constantly changing though i believe your core self can't be changed that easy. Bad people are essentially bad people and good people are the same.

My stepfather was the most evil person i have met or so i thought, he had a crappy childhood and made me, my sister and my mom miserable, he went thru a lot in his adulthood life, cáncer, heart attack, many weird diseases and he was still an *******.

One day he found God or whatever and he started to change, he did, he was nicer to me and others and the last years of his life he made an effort to srto of try and patch things with some of the people he had hurt. He was very nice to my son, ill never forget that, more so than to me, maybe because he wanted to have a grandson of his own. Anyway, he became a sort of "better man" his last years on this world but deep down he was still a miserable ******* and he still fought a lot with my mom in the last years, he tried to change, he really did, but couldn't escape the man he really was, an *******


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## arbitrator

Dogbert said:


> I've just finished having dinner with an old friend when I just happened to overhear a small part of a conversation from another table. A woman asked the question "Can we still be friends?". Whoah! What a trigger that question was for me.
> 
> The last time I saw my ex-WW was when the divorce became finalized. As I was leaving the courthouse, she ran up and said to me "Can we still be friends?" I thought about replying back to her with a contemptuous "Friends don't stab each other in the back" but thought that my silence would be enough of an answer. Good thing I did for it probably saved me from an emotionally charged discussion that could have easily turned ugly with just a few wrong words from her part.
> 
> Today I still shake my head today when I think how much her head was so far up her @$$ for me to even consider such a ridiculous idea to begin with. Good thing that I have a cast iron stomach otherwise I would have puked my brains out to even think that I would say to her "Yes, lets remain friends". Unbelievable.


*My preeminent question, in response to her arcane question of "Can we still be friends?" would greatly have to be, 

"Exactly what's in it for me?"*


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## Wolf1974

Ynot said:


> To those who choose to classify themselves as liars, all I can say is I pity you, because if you haven't changed, you haven't lived.
> So none of you took a new job, made new friends, took up new hobbies, had children, moved? Each and every one of those everyday occurrences change us. You may not want to believe it, but they do.
> I went from a corporate guy to being self employed. My business changed. My ex went from being a stay at home mom to a corporate gal. My children grew up, went to college and moved out. Each and every one of those things changed who we are and what we became.
> I almost died, I filed bankruptcy, I went thru the empty nest. My ex went from being a part time secretary to working a full time+ job. She went from focusing on children to focusing on a career. So please do not tell me that you did not change. Because as I have said you either change or you die.
> You may very well be or had been completely focused on your marriage and your family, I know I was. But that doesn't mean you didn't change. It doesn't mean your SO or ex hasn't changed. Sometime the changes are in sync with each other. Sometimes they are not.
> Often time it is your very own efforts that prompts change in your SO or ex. I went from being a corporate stooge, working 60+hours a week and driving an hour each way everyday, to being self employed, just so I could focus on my family and become the best dad I could be. I succeeded at that. My ex never really accepted that and so began her own pursuit of the pay check. Neither she, not my family ever suffered because of me being self employed, but she needed the security of a pay check, while I desired the freedom and control of my own business. I was focused on my family and so was she. But our goals incompatible.


I had life changes but not changes of my views of my x wife or our relationship. The only thing that changed my view of our relatioship was when she cheated. Otherwise I was in it till death do us part

And save the pity. Need none of it


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## Betrayedone

JustFree said:


> So True. Maybe getting into the marriage is taken too lightly


Ya Think??????


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## Dogbert

arbitrator said:


> *My preeminent question, in response to her arcane question of "Can we still be friends?" would greatly have to be,
> 
> "Exactly what's in it for me?"*


Yes it would have been but only if my emotional pulse was flatlining.


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## Ynot

Wolf1974 said:


> I had life changes but not changes of my views of my x wife or our relationship. The only thing that changed my view of our relatioship was when she cheated. Otherwise I was in it till death do us part
> 
> And save the pity. Need none of it


You don't need my pity. You admitted that you changed. I was totally committed to making my relationship work as well. I modulated many things (changes) in my life for the good of the relationship. In the end it didn't matter. It takes TWO people to have a relationship. If one side doesn't or can't try the relationship fails. I am now dealing with many unaddressed issues from the modulating that I did to accommodate the relationship. I am paying a very steep personal price for these decisions.


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## SamuraiJack

arbitrator said:


> *My preeminent question, in response to her arcane question of "Can we still be friends?" would greatly have to be,
> 
> "Exactly what's in it for me?"*


"Dishonesty, Deceit and Infidelity....It will be just like you never got divorced!"

Sorry couldnt resist. The level of WTF just contunues to go up in my ex divorce years. Figured yours did too.


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## Chuck71

Reality U
MWF 9:00 - 9:50
Habits of an Ex-Wife / Husband

Week 1: Blame shifting, projection, re-writing history, delusional composition

33% final, 33% mid-term
33% 20 page research paper on "Why my Ex is a Psycho"

Yes I have submitted this to the university before. The "lords that be" have no sense of humor


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## hope4family

Chuck71 said:


> Reality U
> MWF 9:00 - 9:50
> Habits of an Ex-Wife / Husband
> 
> Week 1: Blame shifting, projection, re-writing history, delusional composition
> 
> 33% final, 33% mid-term
> 33% 20 page research paper on "Why my Ex is a Psycho"
> 
> Yes I have submitted this to the university before. The "lords that be" have no sense of humor


I could write a Dr Thesis on understanding Blame shifting, projection, and re-writing history. For extra credit we would discuss delusional composition like basic math, and how to file your taxes. 

I kid, only because I have to laugh at this situation to keep from being so sad.


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## Chuck71

hope4family said:


> I could write a Dr Thesis on understanding Blame shifting, projection, and re-writing history. For extra credit we would discuss delusional composition like basic math, and how to file your taxes.
> 
> I kid, only because I have to laugh at this situation to keep from being so sad.


But your awareness has soared through the roof brother


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## SamuraiJack

Chuck71 said:


> Reality U
> MWF 9:00 - 9:50
> Habits of an Ex-Wife / Husband
> 
> Week 1: Blame shifting, projection, re-writing history, delusional composition
> 
> 33% final, 33% mid-term
> 33% 20 page research paper on "Why my Ex is a Psycho"
> 
> Yes I have submitted this to the university before. The "lords that be" have no sense of humor


Can I be guest speaker for rewriting history, absentee wife syndrome and progressive physical abuse of men?...IE "Why wont you be my Daddy?"
The History Revision piece is my baileywick. I went from being posted on facebook as the best men in th world to being called "two faced and insincere" last week.
Im pretty certain I am not that person...but she seems pretty sure of it.



I feel I can also be of use in the third semester with
1. Drinking "just because you can".
2. Therepuetic benefits of FWB's
3. The proper time to manhandle.
4. Cooking to get laid.
5. James Bond Weekends.


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## Chuck71

SamuraiJack said:


> Can I be guest speaker for rewriting history, absentee wife syndrome and progressive physical abuse of men?...IE "Why wont you be my Daddy?"
> The History Revision piece is my baileywick. I went from being posted on facebook as the best men in th world to being called "two faced and insincere" last week.
> Im pretty certain I am not that person...but she seems pretty sure of it.
> 
> 
> 
> I feel I can also be of use in the third semester with
> 1. Drinking "just because you can".
> 2. Therepuetic benefits of FWB's
> 3. The proper time to manhandle.
> 4. Cooking to get laid.
> 5. James Bond Weekends.



Guest lecturer? He!! I've read your posts.... you'd be 

lead speaker. But yes... post-D is weird. In many ways

I am now going through the post-D, being I never actually

went through one back in 2013, thanks to UG. I can relate

all too well with the FWB sex. In my Snowflakes '88 post... she

was my oldest FWB since we met in '88 and FWB'd in 1996 and 1997.


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## SamuraiJack

Chuck71 said:


> Guest lecturer? He!! I've read your posts.... you'd be
> 
> lead speaker. But yes... post-D is weird. In many ways
> 
> I am now going through the post-D, being I never actually
> 
> went through one back in 2013, thanks to UG. I can relate
> 
> all too well with the FWB sex. In my Snowflakes '88 post... she
> 
> was my oldest FWB since we met in '88 and FWB'd in 1996 and 1997.


Awe thanks!
Im thinking about making the James Bond/Secret Agent Weekend section a weekend sleepover course...


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## hope4family

SamuraiJack said:


> Awe thanks!
> Im thinking about making the James Bond/Secret Agent Weekend section a weekend sleepover course...


Sign me up for the workshop. 

I have the car, weapons training, and look good in a suit. 

Might as well develop the attitude.


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## TheGoodGuy

hope4family said:


> Sign me up for the workshop.
> 
> I have the car, weapons training, and look good in a suit.
> 
> Might as well develop the attitude.


I'm in as well!


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## Chuck71

me as well......... I'm the drunk prankster friend. Hello Hangover 4 LOL


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## hope4family

So who is the person who is having a bachelor party?


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## SamuraiJack

hope4family said:


> So who is the person who is having a bachelor party?


Well I dont know who the poor bastard is...but he's gonna remeber nothing and have no evidence of us coming or going except for the police report...and maybe a few good pictures for the paper.


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## Ynot

SamuraiJack said:


> Well I dont know who the poor bastard is...but he's gonna remeber nothing and have no evidence of us coming or going except for the police report...and maybe a few good pictures for the paper.


And the tattoo. Don't forget the tattoo!


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## SamuraiJack

Ynot said:


> And the tattoo. Don't forget the tattoo!


Goes without saying...


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## SamuraiJack

I have been thinking a bit about the original topic.
It occurs to me that there might be another motive for "Can we still be friends?"

This could be yet another way to place you in the wings as a long term option...say Plan G.


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## Chuck71

SamuraiJack said:


> I have been thinking a bit about the original topic.
> It occurs to me that there might be another motive for "Can we still be friends?"
> 
> This could be yet another way to place you in the wings as a long term option...say Plan G.


When my XW left the house, she left a great deal of things behind.

Many were her child's baby photos, his fav toys as a kid, pics of her mom and grandma

I had everything piled up in the garage and told her she needed to get them.

She never did. Honestly.... I think she expected to come back home.

When she saw the other car in my driveway she asked whose it was

I wanted to say, "your replacement," but I said a friend. She knew.

After the final dog transfer and she never got her things, I waited a month

and took it all to the dump. Minus a few things I kept for myself and 

others I kept back for her brother.


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## SamuraiJack

How odd. I just posted something very similar to this in another thread. My ex claimed she "didnt realize how little she had".

But when I went through and lceaned out the house and boxed her left behinds...I came up with 63 standard boxes of her stuff. 

Maybe she did think she was going to come back, but honestly I think it was just an excuse to get all new things to go with the bright shiny new life she was buying with the ruins of our marriage.

This Spring I am going to tackle the office ( just a few things are hers) and the shed ( A LOT of her stuff in there.)

Im especially fond of the idea of dropping off her old TV and a bunch of her quilts and stuff that she failed to wrap in plastic.

Can we be friends?
Sure "friend" here's some crap you left at my house! 
I kept it for yah!


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## Chuck71

SJ........ how long were you and XW married?

She needs a nickname. Conrad gave mine Window Cork.

I'm still ticked off she never returned my Journey CD

I miss blasting Wheel in the Sky going down the road.


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## Dogbert

arbitrator said:


> *My preeminent question, in response to her arcane question of "Can we still be friends?" would greatly have to be,
> 
> "Exactly what's in it for me?"*


I believe that my silence towards her question actually spoke volumes and my brief stare back at her allowed me to have the last word.


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## Chuck71

I have to para phrase a bit but when UG gave me the same spill back in October

be friends, be a mentor for my daughter (grown, married) and their adopted child

I rolled my eyes.... "Darling... you either have all of me or.... none of me."

She actually appeared shocked. Thankfully my IDGAF stare reinforced my feelings


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## TheGoodGuy

Chuck, what's UG stand for?


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## Chuck71

UG was urology gal. Post D g/f. Broke up back in the fall


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## TheGoodGuy

Now I remember, thanks.


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## SamuraiJack

Chuck71 said:


> SJ........ how long were you and XW married?
> 
> She needs a nickname. Conrad gave mine Window Cork.
> 
> I'm still ticked off she never returned my Journey CD
> 
> I miss blasting Wheel in the Sky going down the road.


XW and I were married 15 years.
We share custody and parental rights over two of the best girls I have ever had the privilege to be with.

Its never been proven that she cheated ( I have always wanted to start a "court" to rule on it.) but rumors were fast and furious.

Not my problem anymore except that she still doesn't see how she affected everyone around her.


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## Chuck71

SamuraiJack said:


> XW and I were married 15 years.
> We share custody and parental rights over two of the best girls I have ever had the privilege to be with.
> 
> Its never been proven that she cheated ( I have always wanted to start a "court" to rule on it.) but rumors were fast and furious.
> 
> Not my problem anymore except that she still doesn't see how she affected everyone around her.


I never knew if WC did or not but.... her walking out on me was enough.

Would I care to know now.... no, there are no tomorrows for us.

I know four months later I was starting to fall for UG and she was

making strong overtures to get me to her place... for... take a guess

Two years after D she is still running scared.... she left her son high and dry

for a complete stranger in another state, lost me, her mom....

a real life version of the Walking Dead.


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## 2ntnuf

I was thinking about this. Wouldn't the answer to a WS be more humorous if the BS asked, "Do you think you can be faithful to our friendship"? Or maybe, "Can I trust you to be faithful to our friendship"?


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## tripad

Glad to know it's not possible to be friends with ex. Been struggling with that concept for kids sake. But internally I knew I can't be friends with one who cheated me financially n hits me, n grope a woman under my nose, though I never tried to proof if there was an affair since I wanted to leave based on the other reasons.


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## 2ntnuf

For the children, you should start a thread in the parenting forum. There is quite a bit to learn. Civility is very important and many other things. This thread wasn't really addressing children being involved. Everyone's definition of friend is different, too.


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