# Am I over thinking things?



## PieOhMy

In the beginning of our relationship, my husband was friends with a couple, John and Amy. And he admitted to having a huge crush on Amy for a long time, even while John was with her, and that once they got serious, he stopped crushing on her. It was a little awkward, cause even after Amy got married to John, my husband continued to kind of cuddle/lay in bed with her and stop by her work a lot alone. When our relationship got serious, Amy had a huge problem with my husband and I being together. And John seemed to follow her lead. It eventually came to the point that my husband was being so passive and they were saying such hurtful things, that I told him that I'm not putting up with it anymore and it's either them or me. He picked me. But has resented me for it ever since. 

Now, four years later, John reached out to my husband via text, apologizing for him and Amy's actions in the past saying that she's with child now. Only a day after they started texting, my husband got Amy's number from John and congratulated her. It's been two days and they're still texting back and forth, nonstop. Nothing inappropriate, but I'm kind of disappointed that my husband was so urgent to start talking and continue talking to her even after I told him how it would make me feel uncomfortable if they started talking so much. 

I understand the simple, "Hey, congratulations. How are you?" But like, he responds back to her asap when it takes him two hours to get back to me. And he only texts her when I'm not around. I'm upset and feeling a little hurt. Am I being ridiculous?


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## EleGirl

Why was your husband cuddling and laying in bed with Amy after she was married? Does her husband know this?

Does the billing for the cell phone show each calling/txts going in/out from the number? If so you might want to check that.

I don't think you are being ridiculous. Your husband is.


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## PieOhMy

I shouldn't say cuddling, it's not like he was holding her. But she was laying on her side, and he jumped on the twin size bed right behind her. It was weird. And idk if John knew about it. And I can just see online with our Verizon Messages. All our messages are visible on there, for both our lines.


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## PieOhMy

I don't know if my husband ever did that in front of John. And I told my husband once a long time ago that you can see calls and messages with Verizon now. But he didn't seem to acknowledge it or maybe doesn't remember.


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## SecondTime'Round

PieOhMy said:


> *I shouldn't say cuddling, it's not like he was holding her. But she was laying on her side, and he jumped on the twin size bed right behind her. It was weird. And idk if John knew about it. *And I can just see online with our Verizon Messages. All our messages are visible on there, for both our lines.


But, what was the context??? Was it at a party? Was it when he was visiting overnight?? Seriously, why would that ever be ok?


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## PieOhMy

That's how I feel. But when I confronted my husband about it, he said that he doesn't think it's a problem if you feel secure with yourself. And it happened one day when we were just visiting her at her mother's house. When we got there she was laying down on a twin size bed and he just laid out on his side right behind her.


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## SecondTime'Round

PieOhMy said:


> That's how I feel. But when I confronted my husband about it, he said that he doesn't think it's a problem if you feel secure with yourself. And it happened one day when we were just visiting her at her mother's house. When we got there she was laying down on a twin size bed and he just laid out on his side right behind her.


What was the reason? You need to provide more context. Was her mother dying??? Was he comforting her???? 

Be more specific!


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## PieOhMy

No, we were just visiting to say hi because we were in the area. John wasn't around. And she happened to be lying on her side on a twin bed reading a magazine. My husband and I walked in and he just decided to lay down behind her on his side as well. Neither of them seemed phased by it and we just continued talking about random stuff while I just took a seat at the foot of the bed. It was awkward. I acted like it didn't bother me but it did.


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## PieOhMy

They basically looked like they were spooning but I don't think they were actually touching.


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## ConanHub

I stopped reading when he was in bed, cuddling with a married woman. If this is real, your man is a buffoon and Amy and John are swingers.

Your with him why?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

Well this was for years ago. Hasn't happened since. But he continues to this day to tell me that it didn't mean anything. Any thoughts on them talking now?


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## PieOhMy

Four*


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## Froggi

Nope. He is in love with her. I say tell him to hit the road Jack.


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## ConanHub

I wouldn't have put up with the nonsense then or now. He is somehow fortunate enough to have been kept by you and should have closed the door to his cuddle buddy and her clueless,(swinger) husband if he wanted to keep you.

Can't you do better?

Do you have kids?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

We don't have kids. I can do better.


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## PieOhMy

I'm just trying to make this work. Do you really think he has feelings for her still?


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## Nucking Futs

PieOhMy said:


> Well this was for years ago. Hasn't happened since. But he continues to this day to tell me that it didn't mean anything. Any thoughts on them talking now?


Two things. First, he says it doesn't mean anything, but you've made it very clear that it means something to you. So he's disregarding your feelings.

Second, it clearly does mean something to him or he wouldn't be jeopardizing his relationship with you for it. 

If you don't have kids with him, kick him to the curb. He's proving to you that he's not really all in with you so you shouldn't stay with him. If you do have kids it's a different matter, you'll need to at least try to salvage the family for your kids sake.


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## Nucking Futs

PieOhMy said:


> I'm just trying to make this work. Do you really think he has feelings for her still?


You answered my question while I was typing it.

You told him it was either them or you. He initially picked you, now he's chosen them. He's showing you that his relationship with them is more important than his relationship with you. Time to find your own man rather than trying to save a relationship with Amy's backup.


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## PieOhMy

What would be a good way to approach this situation? Or him?


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## ConanHub

PieOhMy said:


> What would be a good way to approach this situation? Or him?


Hard Line in the sand. Show him the door. He is a fool and your words apparently, are too complicated for his gerbil brain to comprehend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

He always says that I shouldn't be telling him how to do things. That just because I think my way is right doesn't mean it is. That I'm selfish because I don't think about how he feels and how he wants his friends in his life. He says it's not fair because I have a male friend, Alex, that just came back into our lives after we decided to reintroduce old friends. Alex and I kissed once when we were drinking at my house when I was 18. After that, we decided it was awkward and to leave it in the past and nothing ever happened between us again. He never had a problem with my relationship with my husband but my husband had it in his head that Alex still wanted me. So I pushed Alex away, because I saw it as, I can do without him. We've started talking again via text, but we have barely talked. He tried calling me, and I didn't pick up because I don't want things moving too fast and wanted to kind of maintain a safe distance. So my husband likes to compare Alex and me to him and Amy. I don't even know if that's a good comparison? Does it matter?


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## PieOhMy

I asked my husband for Amy's number and we've been talking. Trying to "kill with kindness" sort of thing. And he hasn't asked me for Alex's number and doesn't seem to care that I'm talking to him. So that is why I doubt myself and wonder if I'm over thinking things about him and Amy.


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## ConanHub

Alex isn't even close to Amy in wrongness.

Your husband is wrong. What are you going to do about it?

Your H is showing you what he is made of, again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AliceA

PieOhMy said:


> Am I being ridiculous?


No. He admits he had an EA, even PA I would say, considering they 'cuddled' in bed, with this woman in the past. They treated you like garbage. He chose you, but as soon as they reached out to him he's in like Flynn. 

I think you should've run a mile from the get go.

It's easy to see how this goes from here. You know exactly what's going to happen, you just don't want to face it. He's going to continue his EA with her, they are going to pick up where they left off in trying to make your life hell.


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## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> even after Amy got married to John, *my husband* continued to kind of cuddle/lay in bed with her


Are you SERIOUS?

You ALLOWED your husband to lie in a bed with another woman?


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## AliceA

turnera said:


> Are you SERIOUS?
> 
> You ALLOWED your husband to lie in a bed with another woman?


Don't think she had much of a say in it. He sounds like he'll do what he wants, when he wants. That she allowed herself to accept this as okay is more what I'm wondering.


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## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> when I confronted my husband about it, he said that he doesn't think it's a problem if *you *feel secure with yourself.


Says every man-***** ever. 

Maybe you're just naive, but this is what CHEATING MEN say to their wives to INTIMIDATE and MANIPULATE their wives to SHUT UP and let them screw whoever they want.

In other words 'if you call me out on my cheating, then YOU are disgusting and YOU have a problem, it's not me. It's NEVER me.'

See how that works?


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## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> He always says that I shouldn't be telling him how to do things. That just because I think my way is right doesn't mean it is. That I'm selfish because I don't think about how he feels and how he wants his friends in his life. He says it's not fair because I have a male friend, Alex


Your H is mentally abusive and manipulative. He is mentally screwing with you to keep you on your toes, to keep you doubting yourself, to keep you afraid to upset him, and thus to give him ALL THE CONTROL.

Pack his stuff and tell him if he contacts her ONE MORE TIME, he is out the door.


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## AliceA

At the end of the day, these people were terrible to you. It's pretty reasonable to never want to have them in your life again. Even if it were just that alone, that's enough reason to say 'no' to continued contact.

Why are you even talking to her? Why are you pretending you can be friends? Stop pretending this is okay.


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## alte Dame

Look, he already was in at least a one-sided EA with her. And now they are texting way too much. This is a slow-moving train wreck that you are just watching with your heart in your throat.

Don't let him torture you. Draw the line in the sand, as others have said. Tell him what appropriate boundaries in a marriage are and that you expect them to be respected. He will either refuse, standing on misguided principle, or he will accede to your wishes. If he does the first, you should take that as his not choosing you and start planning to split. If he does the second, be vigilant to make sure he doesn't take it underground.

Either way, you are in for a bumpy ride. So sorry.


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## Roselyn

Sorry that you are in this scenario. You are Plan B to Amy. Your husband is in love with Amy and will always be. The truth hurts, but you must face it. You need to build your self-esteem and forge a better life for you and with a husband who will love you fully.

You need to see a psychologist to straighten your mind and build your self-worth. You don't think that you are worthy to be number one in your husband's life. Stop acting like a second fiddle to Amy and pretending to be her friend. This is so demeaning to your self-worth. Dump your husband and your friend, Alex. You really need to build a new life, one without the heartaches and complications that you have.

You truly deserve a better life than what you have.


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## Cooper

PieOhMy said:


> Well this was for years ago. Hasn't happened since. But he continues to this day to tell me that it didn't mean anything. Any thoughts on them talking now?


Trust me...if he was willing to hop in bed with Amy right in front of you then it happened a lot more often than just one time. That's an action that takes time to get to that comfort level, and for your husband to do it in front of you means he was so use to it he did it without even thinking.

Current problem is he is right back to crushing on her, it will probably be worse this time around because they have missed each other the last few years. He is disrespecting you, your feelings and your marriage.


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## Adeline

PieOhMy said:


> And I can just see online with our Verizon Messages. All our messages are visible on there, for both our lines.





PieOhMy said:


> And I told my husband once a long time ago that you can see calls and messages with Verizon now.


ok... I'm sorry because I am definitely going a bit off topic here, but I have Verizon as well... and these made me go what? Do you mean you activated the ability to read text messages online? Or is that standard that you can read texts for both lines on the same account online? I can only see the numbers and times on the bill online for calls and texts, but no content.


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## PieOhMy

If you have activated Verizon Messages, you can see text messages online using the web app or mobile app.


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## PieOhMy

Emotional affair. One sided or not, this is completely true. I didn't even know how to describe it. I am seeing a therapist on my own. I have been for 2 years. She tells me to try and be understanding to my husband, etc. And to realize my husband's pattern. That although he might act stupid or overreact at first, that he always comes around and does the right thing. But I finally talked my husband into marriage counseling. We are going this Tuesday night.


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## PieOhMy

I'm putting up with it because I'm hoping that everyone is just excited to be talking again and that it will stop soon. Like I said, they're not talking about anything inappropriate. But yes, it still makes me uncomfortable. I did tell my husband that if he didn't go to marriage counseling with me, that we needed to start talking to someone about a divorce because I couldn't handle this anymore. This happened actually before the whole friends situation came up. And the same day I made that comment, the same day his friend John reached out. And that's when this whole thing started. I've been dealing with this for a week. When I told him that I'd rather he have a relationship with John, and I have the relationship with Amy, he said, "Don't start! They're all my friends."


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## PieOhMy

And then he brought up Alex, and said that he can only talk to Alex, and not me. And I said, "Go ahead, talk to Alex. I'd love it if you could become close. And that way, perhaps we'd all be more comfortable, too." I don't think he understands that I don't mind not talking to Alex a lot. Yes, I'll talk to him here and there. But not a constant. But my husband didn't seem interested in talking to Alex. And you're right, I don't really feel like talking to Amy. But like I said, I'm being hopeful that things will get better.


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## lucy999

PieOhMy said:


> I am seeing a therapist on my own. I have been for 2 years. She tells me to try and be understanding to my husband, etc. And to realize my husband's pattern. That although he might act stupid or overreact at first, that he always comes around and does the right thing.


First and foremost, good for you for going to IC. 

But what your therapist is telling you doesn't sit well with me at all. So does this mean since your H 'always comes around and does the right thing', it cancels out the bad things he's done? Does that mean your feelings are null and void?:scratchhead:

If my therapist told me that, she'd be my ex therapist.

You are not overreacting in the slightest. Both Amy and your H are extremely inappropriate. The pisser is it's right before your eyes. I'd feel very humiliated.


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## Nucking Futs

lucy999 said:


> First and foremost, good for you for going to IC.
> 
> But what your therapist is telling you doesn't sit well with me at all.* So does this mean since your H 'always comes around and does the right thing', it cancels out the bad things he's done? Does that mean your feelings are null and void?*:scratchhead:
> 
> If my therapist told me that, she'd be my ex therapist.
> 
> You are not overreacting in the slightest. Both Amy and your H are extremely inappropriate. The pisser is it's right before your eyes. I'd feel very humiliated.


I'd be interested in how your therapist answers that question. Maybe throw her some hypotheticals, like if he cheated, robbed a bank, punched an old lady, murdered someone. See if you can pin your therapist down on just how much bull **** you should put up with if he comes around in the end. And then fire her, she's not helping.


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## ConanHub

Your therapist seems fairly useless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Roselyn

You need to see another therapist; one that will help you build your self-esteem. You allowed your marriage scenario to happen four years ago as your self-esteem was at a low ebb. You settled for just a part of your husband. Then, you realized that you did not want to be treated as an outsider in their threesome relationship.

What changed? You are back again to where you were four years ago. Go back to how you got the strength to put your foot down years ago. You cannot live in the manner that you are living. You will be tortured in this marriage.


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## turnera

The only woman I've heard of in worse shape than this was a woman who said her husband made her and their kids go to events where he partied with his OW and made his family sit on the sidelines and watch.

You wait. That's coming up for you if you don't put a stop to it.


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## Kresaera

When I met my husband, he had a best friend, Abby, and they were very close. She had spent the night with him before when they were younger (right outta high school) and he admits fully that he had a huge crush on her. We all worked together at the local Applebee's when hubby and I first started dating. To make a long story short, he was her "fall back guy" and she didn't like it that he married me. After a long, drawn out, drama filled battle, she finally showed her true colors and hubby freaked on her and told her never to talk to either of us again. 

I tried to be her friend, I tried being nice, I tried setting boundaries. From my experience, unless she does something totally crazy like Abby did, he won't stop talking to her because he still likes her. A lot. If you don't have kids, I'd give him a timeline to end his relationship with these toxic people and if he doesn't do it, I'd be out.


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## AliceA

I'm wondering, did either John or Amy apologise to *you*, or did they just apologise to your husband in a text message?

Did at any point while you were getting chummy with Amy on the phone did she admit she was a real b*tch and that she regrets treating you so poorly, regrets trying to poison your marriage and turn your husband against you? Did Amy and John at any point say they will NEVER bad mouth you again, that they will keep their noses out of your marriage?

Do you honestly want to be friends with Amy and John? Have you actually forgiven them? Do you really think they will never try to hurt you again?

Your husband is a wet rag. If you want someone to stick up for you, you better do it for yourself.


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## northernlights

Your story kind of reminds me of something that went on in my marriage a long, long time ago. Long story really short, I was newly married and staying with a friend because of a great job that required a quick relocation. My H elected to stay behind because he didn't want to stay at the friend's place (I was sleeping on a mattress in the basement, it certainly wasn't glamorous. Or even remotely nice). One night, there was a mouse in the basement, and I asked my friend if I could sleep in his bed with him. He said sure, but that I was the married one and not him, and if I was up for sex, he was too. I told him no, and that was that. 

I told my H what he said the next day, and he was unconcerned. I was expecting a "we'll get an apartment anywhere but no more this guy," and I offered that, but he was fine. At the time I told myself it was great that he trusted me, and weren't we so wonderfully progressive that he could be so nonchalant about other guys propositioning me.

11 years later, it turns out that H never really loved me. Only now we have 2 kids and a house we own, and we're looking at either tearing that all apart, or just keeping on in a loveless marriage.

I am trying to scare you, I'm sorry. But when you don't have so much experience, it's easy to rationalize behavior that doesn't sit right. Listen to everyone here, this is NOT ok. I know it's not going to strike your average person as that bad, so you're going to be really tempted to "not overreact" and rug sweep it all. But those of us who've been through hell and back in our marriages have a really good sense of really bad red flags, and this is one. Your H needs to either apologize profusely to you and cut these people out of your life, or you need to separate. I'm sorry.


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## thread the needle

northernlights said:


> it's not going to strike your average person as that bad.


I agree with everything you posted except this part. I would think the average person would find the husbands and the friends behavior exceptionally screwed up.

Even though below average people are morons, they might still think it's effed up too. 

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize when someone is entirely uninterested in someone else's emotional well-being a need for feelings of security in their marriage. 

Other than that, I commend your other thoughts entirely. 

To OP, dump the loser. You deserve better. My heart aches for you.


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## PieOhMy

Thank you everybody for all your honesty. And I drew the line today.


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## PieOhMy

My husband withdrew his interest in going to marriage counseling, again. I told him that we needed this -that I needed this. He said that if we have to base our marriage on therapy, than he doesn't want to be in this relationship. And so I told him to leave. And he left. And guess where he went? To John and Amy's house. I called him out on it via text by saying "Can you please take my call, I don't care if they hear what I have to say."

When he still didn't respond, I followed up with this, " If you don't call me in 30 mins, then we are done and I'm getting in contact with a divorce lawyer. I'm done with this ****. You can have your friends and tell your friends all you want because we're done. You can come get your **** from my father because I don't want to see you. Make a decision." He called me a few minutes later. Asking what he needs to change and that I need to change things to. I told him, "This wasn't about me changing anymore, that I've already done that, now it's your turn. You want to run away from your wife to the friends you just started talking to again, to the friends that she's uncomfortable with and share our personal problems with them? Great way to add more gas to the fire. I'm done with your childish ****." Then he kind of put up some resistance and I said, "Well why did you even bother calling me back? You've got your friends. Or did they actually say something to you?". And then he said, "Well when I told John that we were fighting and that you want me to go to therapy, he actually said that him and Amy had to go to counseling as well." And then I told him that this was the problem, that he chose to finally listen about marriage counseling when it came from his friends, not his wife.


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## PieOhMy

He said he will go to counseling. Again. And he asked if he could pick me up so we can talk. And I told him, "The next time you'll be seeing me is at 6:15 this Tuesday at our marriage counseling session. I'll throw some of your stuff in an overnight bag and you can pick it up outside cause I don't want to see you. I don't care where you go, just tell me where you end up staying. I'm done with this. Goodnight." And that's it. I had at one point called Amy while my husband was over there, but she didn't pick up. I texted her apologizing for putting them in the middle of this. That was it. She messaged me back really late saying, "Sorry my phone died, is everything okay?" And I texted her back saying, "Everything is okay, thank you. Sorry for calling you earlier." And I didn't hear from again. And that's that.


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## PieOhMy

My husband did message me asking where I went. (Obviously driving around in circles or watching the house nearby). I told him I went for a drive with the dog. He said okay. And then i told him, "I'm not going to go so Alex because i know that makes you uncomfortable and I don't do that." Then an hour or so later he said, "You didn't just go for a drive did you?" And I sent him this in response, " You're not giving me space if you're watching the house. And whatever it is you think I'm doing, get it out of your head, because I'm not. Like I said, I'm not going to be the one in the relationship that runs to the past or does something that makes you so uncomfortable. Goodnight." Then he said a little later, "I'd appreciate it if you told me where you are and what you're doing." And I said, " And I would have appreciated it if you had talked to me about a lot of things too." And he said, "Ok I get it." And I said, "Okay. Love you. Goodnight." And he said, "Love you too." So as of now he's sleeping in his car in the parking lot where he works. As far as I know. I checked with Verizon, and there haven't been any calls or text between him and his friends since he left their house. But I'm sure they'll talk more tomorrow.


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## AliceA

Nice to see you finally putting your foot down about the marriage counselling. It's a shame it seems to always takes you being on the verge of divorcing him before he'll make any effort to fix things.

That won't work long term. Eventually you'll get sick of threatening to leave him in order to make him listen. On that day it won't be a threat anymore, it'll just happen. That's something you need to address in counselling, if it actually happens.


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## PieOhMy

So I just wanted to thank everyone for their honesty because it really helped. Instead of just getting sad, I finally got angry. I'm still very upset, but trying to keep it together. I love this forum because I get to hear everyone's unbiased opinions, from all sorts of backgrounds and experiences. If you are interested in seeing how it goes, I will post updates. And hopefully this counselor helps ease our situation. If you have any suggestions for me, please keep them coming! I'm definitely nervous about the marriage counseling. And I definitely see now that I have to stay strong and stick to my guns. Thank you.


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## PieOhMy

There's a lot of things I want to address in counseling. That this is not a joke, that things need to be fixed. His friends. His emotional abuse and manipulation. That he needs to stop blaming me for all his problems with friends and family. To let go of the past and get over his resentment towards me. That I don't want him back in the house until we've had a few sessions, maybe several sessions -if they even go well. That he needs to get a hotel instead of running to his friends. That he needs to pay his bills. And bring up a post nuptial because I was stupid enough to never get one.


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## PieOhMy

And to address the questions about his friends. I really have no interest in being friends with them again. I definitely feel my life would be much more happier and stress free without them. I'm doing this because these were his high school buddies and his only friends and I was under the impression that he really needed them in his life. When John apologized, it was on behalf of both him and Amy, and it was directed to both of us. And when I reached out to Amy, she said "I apologize for the past."And I said, "I really appreciate that, it was tough. But I hope the past is the past now." And I continued to ask her about her baby and how she was doing. That was all we really discussed. Of course I still want to tell my husband that we need to cut all ties with these people. But do you think the therapist is going to agree with that?


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## AliceA

I'm not sure what your therapist will say, but don't forget that the therapist is just another person with an opinion. Listen, reflect, then do what you feel is right for you.

I know it feels harsh to cut people out of your life forever. It seems unforgiving to not let them back in after they apologise. The thing is, they can't change what they did. They can't change who they are (really, people don't change). At the end of the day, they will always be the sort of people who will stab you in the back. When you let them back into your life, you are giving them a target, and eventually they'll be true to their nature and they'll take the shot because that is who they are, and that is what they do.

Your husband can't force you to interact with people. You can't force him not to, but you both can make the choice to support each other. It's not healthy for you to be attacked, or fear being attacked for the rest of your life. There are plenty of people in this world who your husband could be friends with who will not attack you. I'm not friends with any of the people I went to school with. Many people aren't, yet we all make new friends. Good friends. Better friends.


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## PieOhMy

"When you let them back into your life, you are giving them a target..." --This is exactly how I feel. And the fact that my husband went to them in a time of trouble with our relationship I feel like makes us even more vulnerable and get them thinking to how they used to think about us. If they don't already.


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## PieOhMy

No more thoughts from anyone? Tomorrow's the big day.


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## Roselyn

I don't think your situation will change. If you want to save your marriage, you'll need to move far away from your husband's friends. Your husband only agreed to counselling because his friends are also going to counselling. Their marriage is in trouble. Soon, Amy & your husband will be best buddies again. You're going to be back where you were years ago. Sorry, you're too soft on your husband.


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## Kresaera

I'm pulling for you, I really am. However, we let Abby back in our lives (it was my doing on a night involving too much alcohol) and she eventually ended up stabbing us in the back. If he can't leave them in his past, then leave him in yours.


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## PieOhMy

I feel the same way. That just because they have apologized, does not mean that they have changed. So how do I bring this up in therapy? What would be the best way to word it?


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## turnera

I would just set my boundaries. Tell both of them what you're willing to accept and then just sit back and listen to them.


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## PieOhMy

Okay. So I'm thinking of saying something like this: I don't want them in our lives. Either of ours. Because I think they will stir up more trouble than less. And to be honest, I don't like the type of person my husband is with them in his life. He betrayed me four years ago, and now he's done it again. But even worse. Now, instead of them saying the negatives about me, he's telling them the negatives about me. And this time around, he's showing no regard to my feelings whatsoever. And I don't want to live that way. The old habits are already starting up again and I think we need to end it. 

Too harsh? Better wording? Please edit.


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## turnera

One of the issues I'm having with our marriage is that I don't want them in our lives. They stir up more trouble than less. And I don't like the type of person my husband is with them in his life. He betrayed me four years ago, and now he's done it again. But even worse. Now, instead of them saying the negatives about me, he's telling them the negatives about me. And this time around, he's showing no regard to my feelings whatsoever. And I don't want to live that way. The old habits are already starting up again. And my H is showing through all this that my needs don't matter as much as his. I try to put him first, because that's what love is. But he's not doing the same. Now, if there's a reason for that, I need to know it. If he's unhappy in our marriage, WE should be discussing it and fixing it. Not taking it to other people who he knows make me uncomfortable. 

So I need to know, tonight, if having them in his life is more important to him than having me in his life; because if he keeps them, I don't think I can handle the disrespect, and this marriage probably won't work out. 

I'm fully willing to look at whatever I'm doing wrong in this marriage and change to make it better, because I love my husband; but I expect him to do the same.


----------



## zillard

I think there is still too much focus on them. 

They aren't causing any problems in YOUR marriage.

Your husband is with his lack of boundaries with others, lack of respect for you, and lack of consideration for your feelings. 

And YOU need to drop Alex immediately too.


----------



## zillard

If the endgame is to get these people out of your lives, and then your husband doesn't work on these issues, there will eventually be another Amy.


----------



## synthetic

Your husband doesn't love you enough. As simple as that.

If you can't live with that, then don't.


----------



## PieOhMy

I already asked Alex if he can call me sometime today so we can talk. I think I'm going to just be very forward with Alex and tell him, "To be honest, this friendship is not going to work. With the way things are going in my personal life, I don't feel safe with you being in it. I thought I could, but I'm choosing to be happy with my future and respectful to my relationship. The last thing I want to do is add salt to an open wound. I'm very sorry for dragging you into this. But it's time to for me to let the past go and move on. Please take care and enjoy your life." 

What do you think?


----------



## GA HEART

Take NO shame in cutting toxic people out of your life. It is a non-entity, it deserves NO space at all in your brian.

But yes, focus needs to be on H issues. Good luck!


----------



## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> I already asked Alex if he can call me sometime today so we can talk. I think I'm going to just be very forward with Alex and tell him, "To be honest, this friendship is not going to work. With the way things are going in my personal life, I don't feel safe with you being in it. I thought I could, but I'm choosing to be happy with my future and respectful to my relationship. The last thing I want to do is add salt to an open wound. I'm very sorry for dragging you into this. But it's time to for me to let the past go and move on. Please take care and enjoy your life."
> 
> What do you think?


If he's a good man he'll understand and respect that with no hard feelings. Rest easy knowing it won't hurt him as isn't personal. 

If he can't, rest easy knowing he had to go.


----------



## PieOhMy

I'm gonna hear and listen to what my husband has to say. Take it in. And then say what I want from the relationship. I'm pretty positive that it's not going to change how I feel. But that basically, I'd like to work on us without the external threats.


----------



## lucy999

PieOhMy said:


> I already asked Alex if he can call me sometime today so we can talk. I think I'm going to just be very forward with Alex and tell him, "To be honest, this friendship is not going to work. With the way things are going in my personal life, I don't feel safe with you being in it. I thought I could, but I'm choosing to be happy with my future and respectful to my relationship. The last thing I want to do is add salt to an open wound. I'm very sorry for dragging you into this. But it's time to for me to let the past go and move on. Please take care and enjoy your life."
> 
> What do you think?


Now wouldn't that be great if your H told Amy and whats his nuts (John?) that?


----------



## PieOhMy

I'd probably drop dead and want to go on a honeymoon immediately with my husband and have lots of sex lol.


----------



## PieOhMy

And my friend Alex said he understood and that maybe one day he'll be able to see us down the road.


----------



## PieOhMy

See hopefully he listens and doesn't reach out. If he does, I won't respond. So he knows I mean it. And I'm not going to immediately tell my husband about this cause I don't want him thinking that I'm saying, "YOU NEED TO DO THIS ASAP WITH YOUR FRIENDS." Cause he'll immediately get defensive.


----------



## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> I'd probably drop dead and want to go on a honeymoon immediately with my husband and have lots of sex lol.


Funny. That's what I keep saying about my husband, on the subject of if he ever got off the couch and fixed all the things wrong with the house. It's a shame they just can't listen.


----------



## PieOhMy

We had our first therapy session tonight. I think it went fairly well. The trust and security issue came up a lot. We didn't really even get into details yet, but mostly just spoke about our feelings and I tried to let him do a lot of the talking. And we went over our history. I don't know when we'll address the friends issue. Hopefully sooner rather than later, before any more damage is done but we'll see. I'm still very hurt by him. He is back in the house, we are sleeping in the same bed, but I don't think I can budge with this friends issue. I really dont want to live with that. At all.


----------



## turnera

Good. Just hold to it. When is the next session?


----------



## PieOhMy

I don't know how to bring that up without sounding like the one that isn't willing to compromise or making it about myself. Any suggestions?


----------



## turnera

"I don't feel like talking." 

For the next two weeks.


----------



## PieOhMy

What do you mean? I say, "I don't feel like having any contact with them." And then what if my husband continues to do so? Or says to the therapist, "Well I want to have contact with them. This is where she needs to trust me and not make it all about herself."


----------



## See_Listen_Love

PieOhMy said:


> Well this was for years ago. Hasn't happened since. But he continues to this day to tell me that it didn't mean anything. Any thoughts on them talking now?


Being a man, I can tell you all women that are slightly presentable mean something to us, they are seen as possible sex partners by even the first glance you give them. 

What your husband did is approaching her as possible LIFE Partner, something way out of line...

He wants her, it is simple as that.


----------



## PieOhMy

My issue is her husband, John. He is very close to my husband too. He talks to him a lot. They've been texting non stop, at least the texts with Amy have slowed down, for now. But I know my husband is going to say, "Well John is a good friend to me, I like having him in my life." But unfortunately if John's in his life, so is Amy, because they are married and live together and have a baby on the way. So how do I make that work? How do I say without sounding like a total ass, that I don't care about his friendship with John, or even Amy's brother. Or what's good reasoning. Cause I know I'm going to sound like the insecure jealous wife.


----------



## Starstarfish

This is the problem with your husband's manipulation on this, OP, he's now successful in getting you to second guess how to react, how to not seem jealous or insecure. Rather than keep the focus on the basic fact your husband is a married man who acts completely inappropriately with Amy, his friends wife and that no one, including John, seems to see that as a problem. 

Yet, your husband imposes rules and demands about your relationship with Alex. Which at the very least is amazingly hypocritical. He's concerned about Alex because he already knows himself the potential. He just feels allowed or enabled to behave as he pleases. Rules are for you, not for him. And he'll use the standard cheater gaslight techniques to make you second guess if the problem is you. 

Don't worry about how you'll sound. I wouldn't even focus on them being friends, I'd straight ask the therapist - My husband see no issue with spooning Amy in bed. Their relationship is inappropriate. I don't feel they are "just friends" after that revelation, and don't feel my husband can or will impose appropriate boundaries on their relationship, and thus I feel the friendship needs to stop.

Don't back down or let him worm into keeping the friendship. If you do, you'll have given him a hall pass. That if he can make you worried about sounding jealous or crazy, he's free to be as inappropriate with other women as he likes.


----------



## toonaive

ConanHub said:


> I stopped reading when he was in bed, cuddling with a married woman. If this is real, your man is a buffoon and Amy and John are swingers.
> 
> Your with him why?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Im going to go with this advise. Or at the very least, they have swinging tenancies. Be wary.


----------



## alexm

PieOhMy said:


> I already asked Alex if he can call me sometime today so we can talk. I think I'm going to just be very forward with Alex and tell him, "To be honest, this friendship is not going to work. With the way things are going in my personal life, I don't feel safe with you being in it. I thought I could, but I'm choosing to be happy with my future and respectful to my relationship. The last thing I want to do is add salt to an open wound. I'm very sorry for dragging you into this. But it's time to for me to let the past go and move on. Please take care and enjoy your life."
> 
> What do you think?


Just out of curiosity, but why do you feel the need to have this conversation with him? You don't have to be mean, but you also don't necessarily owe him a fancy explanation.

Basically what will happen is that he will now be YOUR back-up plan, as he's under the impression that you can't/won't continue this friendship because it's "dangerous".

You know it's okay to just drop people, right? That you don't have to be super nice all the time?

It's healthy to have a good balance in life. Don't be mean, don't be crazy nice. Neither extreme is good.

When you're crazy nice, people a) get the wrong impression about things (see: Alex) and b) will take advantage of you. (see: your husband).

Don't be a witch, but don't let people walk all over you, either.


----------



## Roselyn

Your husband is a satellite. He's befriending John so that he will know when that marriage will weaken. John is another means for him to be close to Amy. 

You can't control how your husband will behave, but you can control how to act on your own feelings. You must be clear to the therapist and your husband that you understand how toxic John and Amy are to your marriage. The more you skirt around the issue, the more clouded the situation will become.

You really need to stand your ground. Building your self-esteem is your first line of defense. Do not be afraid to appear jealous. Jealousy is a reaction when you are not no. 1 in your husband's life. In your situation, you are not; Amy is no. 1.

I am truly sorry that you are in this situation. I wish you the best in these sessions. Have courage and be strong.


----------



## PieOhMy

I know this may sound stupid, but does anyone want to give me some phrases or sentences to use. I'm beginning to get a little anxious and I'm having trouble putting my words together. I know what I want to say and how I feel, I just can't really put it together right now. I'm sorry if this sounds juvenile. I'm just really stressed out.


----------



## zillard

"I'm not OK with __________."

Lather, Rinse, Repeat


----------



## PieOhMy

Other words, stick to my guns, to my feelings. And just keep saying so.


----------



## zillard

He can keep blame shifting, accusing you of being unreasonable, etc, etc. all he wants. That's up to him. 

If you engage, get defensive, and argue, you dilute your stance. If you're not ok with something, you're not. You don't need to explain why to someone who clearly doesn't want to listen. 

Just keep reinforcing your boundary.


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## turnera

Yep. "I'm not ok with this.'

Might add "if you go to see them, you can stay there; don't come home."


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## Roselyn

If I were you, I would quit dancing around the issue of what troubles you. I would say in the session:

"I am here because of a problem that we have in our marriage which is the root of our disagreements. My problem is that my husband is in love and lust another woman, Amy, who he has placed as no. 1 in his life. He is in contact with her and her husband and is waiting for his chance for their marriage to crumble so that he can take her husband's place. I have a problem with being a Plan B in my husband's life.."


----------



## PieOhMy

So...the topic didn't come up until the end of the session. Tonight my husband and the therapist discussed my husband's history and family history most of the time. My husband said that he felt it was very hard to reassure me and gain my trust, and that it's exhausting to him sometimes. The therapist pointed out that it didn't seem like my husband's parents expressed a lot of emotions and that the man always called the shots and so it seems like my husband is picking up that habit. The therapist said that sometimes when people are scared, they try to control things (he was talking about me) but that the way to respond to that is not aggressively, but to listen to what is being said.

My husband brought up his friends, saying that they seemed to have grown up and that they apologized. And that he thinks my jealousy started when I first witnessed him jumping in bed with Amy. The therapist asked if what my husband was saying seemed accurate to me. I said no, and he asked me to say how I feel. I said that I don't feel comfortable having them in our lives. And then he asked why, and I said because I don't like the type of man he is with them in his life, I don't like the type of husband he is to me. And then the therapist asked what I meant. And I said that my husband becomes deceitful, dishonest, mean, inconsiderate and secretive which all end up hurting me and damaging our marriage. I told him that I had asked for my husband to let me reach out to Amy and she and I hold the friendship, wife to wife, and that my husband got defensive when I said that. And that I was going to try to make this work until my husband blew it this past weekend when we got into an argument about marriage counseling and he ran off to their house, knowing we had agreed on a plan to take things slow with them, and knowing that it would hurt me.

The therapist turned his focus back on my husband and said that baby steps are sometimes actually a good way to approach sensitive situations. And my husband admitted that he lets go of the past much easier and kind of likes to "just jump in." And then my husband continued to say he always feels like everything has to be on my terms and that I'm manipulative. And I spoke up at this time and I said that I felt the same way about my husband. My husband was like, "what????" He was shocked I said it about him. He was like, "How am I manipulative?" I told him and the therapist that I felt like he is a gaslighter. That you try to instill fear in me by getting angry or doing something hurtful which results in me always doubting myself. But in truth, my gut has always been fairly accurate throughout all the circumstances in our marriage and that I don't like feeling that way about myself.


----------



## PieOhMy

Unfortunately the session had ended like five minutes before I said this. So we couldn't really touch more on the subject. But I have a feeling next week will be the time the therapist puts more focus on my history and past. 

My husband and I went out to grab a bite to eat after therapy. And he actually had the nerve to ask me if tomorrow night was good for us to go meet up with his friends for dinner together (that was the original plan before he broke my trust again). I told him that I don't want to see them. He asked why not. I said because I don't. And that's where we left it.


----------



## PieOhMy

Any thoughts?


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## zillard

Immediately after you told him in therapy that you don't want them in your lives, he asked you about dinner with them? 

What do you think about that? 

That's where I would start in the next session. 

He knew your answer before asking you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Roselyn

Asking you to dinner with the same toxic friends, after your therapy, is simply inconsiderate and without respect for your feelings. Geez Capiz! Is he mentally challenged?


----------



## zillard

Also, IMO you blew a perfect opportunity to talk about his actions and feelings about Amy, and why he thinks it's OK to jump in bed with her in front of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

"Just jump in"

How's that for a Freudian Slip?!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PieOhMy

We were at the end of the session, so I was trying to make my focus more about him, not them. I wanted to cover that discussion when I'd actually have a chance to share EVERYTHING. Lol. And once again, I'm really hurt that he asked me about his friends again. Wtf.


----------



## PieOhMy

I'm thinking that he's proving exactly what I'm saying to him and the therapist. What part of him asking me that includes being considerate of my feelings and taking things slow? (No, I don't want to take things slow, cause I don't want them in our lives period).


----------



## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> We were at the end of the session, so I was trying to make my focus more about him, not them. I wanted to cover that discussion when I'd actually have a chance to share EVERYTHING. Lol. And once again, I'm really hurt that he asked me about his friends again. Wtf.


Gotcha. And of course you are. That was very insensitive. I'd even say intentionally hurtful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PieOhMy

He's trying to be all nice now. But I'm still very sad and pissed off. In the next session, I'm going to say the following:

My husband expressed to me that he used to have feelings for Amy for "the longest time." To the extent that it was obvious enough to John to say once, while they were having a rough patch in their dating years, "Why don't you just f*ck her?" My husband didn't pursue, but it just goes to show that I'm not the only one that has noticed this. My concern is that he's always had some sort of emotional attachment to her. He jumped into beds with her, he always stopped at her work alone, whenever she needed something, my husband was there. She was married during all of this. And he was dating me. I couldn't help but feel he still and always will have feelings for her. That this was some sort of emotional affair for him, whether he knew it or not. When his friends chose to start talking down about me to my husband, Amy always took the lead. She was okay with my company until she saw that my husband and I were becoming serious. Once that happened, she couldn't stop saying how terrible I was and that my husband needed to drop me. During this time, my husband started hiding these things from me, lying to me about it, going to their house without me only to hear them say it again, and although he might have attempted to stick up for me, he decided to keep letting it go on. I eventually stepped in and confronted Amy about it, and she flipped out on me via text, stating that she didn't like me and will never like me. When my husband didn't take a handle on the situation, I told him that I wasn't going to put up with this and that it's either me or his friends. He picked me. But resented me for it ever since. And now, only having them back in our lives for these few days, he's already hurt me again. She did not like the idea of losing her Plan B then, and hearing that they were having problems in their marriage tells me that she liked having my husband as her back up. And I wouldn't be surprised if she's already tried to secure my husband as a back up already, now. I'm sure she's already said how much she missed him and that he better never leave her again. I feel they're a threat to our relationship and that we've made it four years without them once, and we can do it again. I can't help but feel that if my husband was actually happy with me and we were at a better place, that he would have never started talking to them again. I don't want them in our lives. I think they pose a risk and I think my husband is not a good husband when they're in his life. And to be honest, I don't want to live in my marriage that way. 

What do you think? Any pointers? Changes?


----------



## Roselyn

Stay strong and stand your ground. You're in the right path.


----------



## turnera

He knew your answer, and he FULLY INTENDED to use your answer against you.

See? She's being a b*tch about it. I can't reason with her! It's like living with a prison warden.

Gaslighting at its finest.

Make SURE you point that out to the therapist.

And bravo for JUST SAYING NO. You're stronger than me. 

And that last statement you want to make - print it out and READ IT to the therapist and your H at the beginning of the session.


----------



## AliceA

I think that's good. I think you also need to reflect on what he said about him feeling like you are manipulative and how you feel he is.

He feels you are trying to manipulate him into what exactly? What does he feel your end goal is there?

On your side you feel like he is trying to manipulate you into bringing people who are toxic to you personally, and to your marriage, back into your lives by making you feel like it's all about you holding a grudge. My thoughts are that you don't trust their motives or his, and he's not being truthful with anyone, not even himself, about why he is really so determined to be friends with them again.


----------



## PieOhMy

Yes. That's a good point. I should bring that up. 

I also want to bring up that I am jealous. But not because of Amy as a person, but because of the emotional attachment my husband has to her, whether he sees it or not. That as of right now, my husband has been pretty good at showing in the past, and to this day, that their feelings and his relationship with them, come before our marriage. Come before me. That I'm always second. And that if he actually cared for my feelings and for our marriage, he'd see how this poses a threat.


----------



## PieOhMy

I actually just checked his texts. Amy and him haven't talked since Monday morning. But he's been talking to John about the counseling.


----------



## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> I eventually stepped in and confronted Amy about it, and she flipped out on me via text, stating that she didn't like me and will never like me.


JUST that right there should be reason enough for a good husband to cut her out completely.


----------



## PieOhMy

The therapist already said to my husband at one point that he doesn't want him to have to stop talking to his friends. And my husband said something like, "Well they seemed very sincere with their apology and they seemed like they grew up a lot. They've been married even longer than us and are expecting a baby now." I know my husband will eventually pull the, "I've been close with all of them since high school. There was nothing ever between Amy and I. And they were there through all the hard times I had with my family when I was younger."


----------



## PieOhMy

I wouldn't know how to respond to that one.


----------



## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> The therapist already said to my husband at one point that he doesn't want him to have to stop talking to his friends.


I wouldn't read too much into that yet. 

Nobody wants to lose friends or have others lose friends. The therapist is going off of what he knows so far, which isn't the whole story. 

There could be a huge, "BUT..." coming from the therapist, after you read what you wrote.


----------



## Nucking Futs

PieOhMy said:


> I wouldn't know how to respond to that one.


"I'm sure the three of you will be very happy together."


----------



## PieOhMy

I really have to thank you all for following my drama here. And it really makes me feel better knowing that I'm not the only one that feels this way. My only thing is that I would really like to get more opinions from men. I can't always tell if the opinions are coming from women or men. 

And although your comments are very serious, some of them are pretty funny lol. Thanks for the relief! 

As always, any thoughts or suggestions, please keep them coming. Thanks!


----------



## zillard

Male here. You can always click on the username and select View Public Profile if you're unsure.


----------



## Nucking Futs

PieOhMy said:


> I really have to thank you all for following my drama here. And it really makes me feel better knowing that I'm not the only one that feels this way. My only thing is that I would really like to get more opinions from men. I can't always tell if the opinions are coming from women or men.
> 
> And although your comments are very serious, some of them are pretty funny lol. Thanks for the relief!
> 
> As always, any thoughts or suggestions, please keep them coming. Thanks!


About half the people commenting are men. But I'll give you this mans opinion. You should leave him. You do not come high enough in his priorities to stay with him. He is demonstrating over and over that you come third after J&A, and that's no place for a wife to be.


----------



## PieOhMy

Wow, duh. Lol, I'll keep that in mind from now on.

On another note, this is really helping me figure out my own feelings with this too. I know what I want in a man. And I don't want this. I don't want someone that doesn't trust me, that resents me, that manipulates me, that hurts me. If my husband felt this uncomfortable with anyone, especially the opposite sex or with anyone that has been a threat in the past, I would have let them go and I wouldn't have looked back. And that's what I've done. Because in the end, friends come and go, family moves on, kids move away, and it will still always be just me and my husband. And that's where my partnership lies. That's where my loyalty lies.

I'm beginning to see the pattern. It's not just his friends, it's happened with his family, his brother and other major hardships. He's always put them first before myself. He's always trusted their word before mine. And I've made up my mind. Unless he's willing to change his ways, let go of the past, including his friends, and stay in therapy to work on us, I am done with this marriage. 

Perhaps he needs a very laidback woman that doesn't express as many emotions and as much affection as I do. I'm a fun girl to be around. I love my motorcycle, I love off-roading, I love to be intimate. I love to have a meal ready for him, I love to do all those little things to make him happy or make his day go better. But perhaps that's where I went wrong. I've spoiled him. And I've let him get away with too much. I'm not perfect, but I'm pretty happy with who I am.

And so here I am. In this situation. Ready to admit defeat and walk away. Because I'm tired, because I'm exhausted. Because I want to be healthy and happy.


----------



## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> I'm beginning to see the pattern. It's not just his friends, it's happened with his family, his brother and other major hardships. He's always put them first before myself. He's always trusted their word before mine.


Psychologically, this is because he takes you for granted; he has no fear of losing you, you have 'committed' yourself to him so once you did that, he stopped worrying about you. You're just 'there.' Now he can concentrate on everything else in his life that makes HIM happy.

I always say there's no such thing as unconditional love in a marriage. Someone who THINKS you have unconditional love for them will stop caring for you.


----------



## synthetic

Nucking Futs said:


> About half the people commenting are men. But I'll give you this mans opinion. You should leave him. You do not come high enough in his priorities to stay with him. He is demonstrating over and over that you come third after J&A, and that's no place for a wife to be.


I'm a man and I approve this message.


----------



## PieOhMy

I still couldn't believe he asked about seeing his friends tonight. Well, he didn't bring it up. And he didn't go. So, at least he didn't mess that up. But then in therapy we talked about going down to my Aunt's shore house this weekend to "get away" and spend some time together, even turn our phones off. And guess what he did tonight? He asked to invite his brother and his girlfriend. I was like, "I thought we were gonna try to spend some alone time together?" He said yeah. But seemed annoyed.


----------



## PieOhMy

So I looked at my husband's text messages. Amy had messaged him the Monday morning after are fight. This was the convo:
Amy: You ok?
H: I don't know
Amy: Breathe deep
Amy: Well we're happy to have you in our lives again! You can teach baby Liam about cars! We really missed you! And our families!"
H: I missed you guys too
Amy: Don't go away again!
H: I'm not
Amy: *thumbs up*

And then tonight she texted him again saying:
Amy: How are ya?!
Amy: My mama wants to see you

My husband didn't respond. We were watching a movie. And he won't text any of them back now while he's home. I don't know if it's because he knows how I feel or he's hiding something else. I guess I'll see tomorrow if he messages her back. I feel like this girl is really trying to stir stuff up again. Even her husband hasn't said anything about hanging out again since last week. I'm upset.


----------



## PieOhMy

I'm mad that she keeps texting him. And I'll be upset if my husband keeps responding back to her.


----------



## PieOhMy

I'll be MORE upset, is what I meant to say.


----------



## turnera

Save it for MC. And you may want to consider telling him at that time that you've been monitoring his texts/emails. Or not. Depends on your goals.


----------



## Roselyn

I would compile your evidence of his texts messages and emails. I would not divulge this information as of yet. I believe that there may be more to this situation. Until you have a body of evidence that you can present to the marriage counselor, I would keep this to myself. 

Prepare a timeline to their messaging and texts. This will give a clear picture of your husband's mindset. You can analyze and see the pattern yourself. You can have closure as to what you will decide to do as this scenario unfolds.

Keep posting so that you can get support from posters in TAM. I believe that this emotional support would be of benefit to you.


----------



## Roselyn

Are you living in the U.S. OP? If you are, "alienation of affection" lawsuit can be brought to court for 3rd parties who cause the breakdown of a marriage. These states are: HW, IL, MS, NH, NM, NC, SD, & UT. Contact a family law attorney if you live in one of these states. Your evidence with the text messages & emails will be crucial.


----------



## AliceA

Ugh, she jumped right in with sticking her nose into your marriage and digging her claws in. No flies on this girl. Give an inch and they'll take a mile. The longer they're in your life, the harder it will be to get them out of it.


----------



## PieOhMy

I live in NJ. So I guess that doesn't apply to us. And I think I am going to see how it goes. I'd like to see how far they will take this. If he'll continue to text her back, what she says, if he doesn't text her and if she keeps pushing, etc. As bad as it is, maybe it will be good for me to see how this plays out. Depending on if he continues to text her back, I'll bring this up at the next session. But I'm not going to let him know that I can access his messages online, I'm just going to say that I looked at his phone while he was sleeping. And I'll screenshot the convos and send them to myself for evidence. Because he can deactivate the Verizon Messages if he wants and I'd like to still have access for now.


----------



## PieOhMy

Roselyn, what do you mean by there may be more to this situation?


----------



## lucy999

PieOhMy said:


> But I'm not going to let him know that I can access his messages online, I'm just going to say that I looked at his phone while he was sleeping.


If it were me, if/when it comes down to an explanation as to how you saw those texts, I'd say absolutely nothing. Make him squirm and wonder how you saw them. I don't think you owe him an explanation. Because in the end, it really doesn't matter how you saw them, does it? What matters is they exist.

BTW, kudos to you for sticking to your guns and being strong in counseling. This is a weird love triangle that needs to be busted wide open. Hang in there.


----------



## Somanylemons

I don't think you are over thinking things. 

I wonder if you need to be a bit more proactive in your MC about setting the agenda so that the topics you want to discuss don't get ignored?

I know that we are only getting your side of things here, but I'm having a hard time warming to your husband on the basis of what you have told us. This is only my view of things, I'm biased and no expert, but here is what I think.

I'm going to tell you a story to see if any of it resonates with you. Years ago, an Ex of mine had a huge crush on a friend of his, to the point of it being a one-sided EA. In my case she was not encouraging it, I don't think she was aware of what was going on. 

When I confronted him with my feelings he told me I was crazy for being upset about it. Everyone told me I was crazy for being upset about it, because at the end of the day they were only 'friends' and they weren't 'doing anything'. But I couldn't put it out of my mind and it still hurt me deeply. I told myself I was a jealous person. 

Eventually we ended up breaking up. 

What I realised years later was that it wasn't my jealousy that was the problem. I was perfectly right to be jealous because my Ex loved another women more then me, if he ever loved me at all. I now realise that if she had turned around to him and said she wanted a relationship with him, he would have dropped me like a hot brick and run to her and never looked back.

You can't be happy in a relationship with someone who would drop you for another person if they were ever given the chance. 

It's hard to see what is going on with Amy and her husband. The cynical side of me says that she is aware of your husbands feelings and gets a kick out of the attention, but that she has absolutely no intention of actually having romantic relationship with him. Heaven knows what her husband is thinking.

Frankly if he was my husband, I'd get on that motorbike you mentioned and never look back. If he wants to orbit around Amy and her happy family like a sad creepy uncle that's his prerogative.


----------



## PieOhMy

Thank you so much. And this is true. If he's not doing anything wrong, what does it matter? There shouldn't be any secrets. I don't want to look at his messages. I really don't. There was a time that I didn't because we were at a good place. I trusted him. I don't now.

By the way, I saw my therapist yesterday. I told her about the text messages (she doesn't even know about the ones from last night), and she even agreed that Amy sounds like she is a troublemaker and likes a lot of attention. She said that the next time my husband asks about seeing his friends, to tell him how I feel and tell him that I don't think it would be a good idea for our marriage to have any contact with them right now. To see how things go with us, on our own. She doesn't think it's a good idea to have them in our lives but she thinks if I use "I" too much and use more "we" that he'll get in his defensive mode and think it's all about me. But that in the end, he needs to see things for what they are and realize on his own and with the help of counseling. Because if he can't see it on his own, then he'll just blame me again.

Sometimes I want to message John and ask him how he feels. If he sees what I see. If he ever even knew what his wife was doing. If he thinks I'm wrong. Just out of curiosity. I know i can't do that, but of course it would be interesting to know.


----------



## turnera

You can call him.


----------



## PieOhMy

I can. But I'd rather have more proof of his wife being a needy little b*tch first. And I'd rather not even have to go there and just let my husband take care of business. So I'm trying to be patient and see if my husband steps up to the plate. Cause if he doesn't, then the relationship is over. 

As of now, he still hasn't messaged her back. But I would give it the whole day for him to respond.


----------



## synthetic

I would cancel all marriage counseling abruptly and do a complete 180 on the dude.

It's free and gets you to a much better place in a relatively short while. 

You're diluting your argument by engaging in counseling and futile conversations. Rise above it all and take control of your own life. Your husband doesn't love you enough to feel your pain.


----------



## turnera

synthetic said:


> I would cancel all marriage counseling abruptly and do a complete 180 on the dude.


One of my favorite shows is Million Dollar Listing, and I was watching an episode where Ryan was with his girlfriend, she wanted him to pay attention to her, to meet with her sister who was visiting, to go dancing with her, and to share personal details about his life - you know, the stuff you should expect, right? He couldn't be bothered. He literally said to her 'no, I won't do that,' and when she pressed he just said 'I don't want to talk, we'll talk later.' This is the woman he was planning to propose to. He had taken her completely for granted. 

She took one look at him, turned around, and left their apartment. He couldn't get in touch with her for almost a week! She simply had no desire to see him because he had completely disrespected her.

This guy made a 100% turnaround - just because she respected herself enough to REMOVE herself from his presence while he disrespected her. He spent weeks learning to dance, staged a dance event in Central Park, told her about his private past, just generally paid attention to her.

Bottom line: respecting yourself WORKS. It GETS the other person's attention. It stops them taking you for granted, stops you being their Plan B.

Maybe you need to consider letting him see what a woman scorned looks like.


----------



## PieOhMy

I know. And I've thought about doing that. A lot. But then I feel like I'm the one giving up. And I'll always wonder if things would have changed. So I'd like to see where this counseling goes and to see if there's a chance if my husband will finally work on himself as a person and make some changes. To see how much he actually loves me. Because I do still love him. But depending on how the next couple of weeks go, he might not actually love me enough back. There was a time I loved him more than anything. But I guess that wasn't realistic -at all.


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## PieOhMy

turnera said:


> Maybe you need to consider letting him see what a woman scorned looks like.


What do you mean? Kick him out again? Go out and ignore him? Can you give me some examples?


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## zillard

You have the option of doing both.

Complete 180 and stay somewhere else for a week or two. Only see him for counseling and make it clear that only there will you listen to anything he has to say - and counseling is HIS chance to keep you, vs. YOUR chance to see if he'll wake up.


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## zillard

You've been to a couple sessions now, together, right? 

Afterwards he's requesting dinner with these people, asking about taking backup on your solo weekend, etc. 

He doesn't want to admit to himself that you have a valid concern, much less do anything about it. At this point *it seems* like he is only going through the MC motions to appease you. And checking in with you after each one to see if he's jumped through enough hoops yet to shut you up.

He is NOT taking you seriously.


----------



## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> I know. And I've thought about doing that. A lot. But then I feel like I'm the one giving up.


Nonsense. It has nothing to do with giving up. It's saying "I won't keep going through the motions with a man who CLEARLY is not listening to my side. As he is, I want nothing to do with him. He's welcome to come to the MC (or me) and tell me he finally GETS it, that when you marry someone, you agree to put them FIRST, not third or tenth. That is all. And he's never going to come to that point, I do NOT want to continue. It's HIS choice."

I will gently suggest that that isn't your real reason. That your real reason is that you are afraid that when you take such a stand, he will AGREE with you, that he ISN'T committed to you, and he'd rather leave than do the work. That you're willing to accept him if he'll just at least LOOK like you come first.


----------



## PieOhMy

I was going to do that originally. Keep him out for one or two weeks. But then I felt like I might be giving the impression that I don't want it to work if I'm keeping him out of the house. So now he's back in the house.

And btw, my mom died almost two years ago. We were going to move out but my dad wasn't doing well at all. I'm an only child so I'm really all he has. I was my mother's caretaker for 2 years during her illness before she died. So my husband and I have been living with him, trying to keep him company and saving up money for a house. 

Do you think I can bring that up in therapy? Or the next disrespectful thing he does I just walk away?


----------



## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> I was going to do that originally. Keep him out for one or two weeks. But then I felt like I might be giving the impression that I don't want it to work if I'm keeping him out of the house. So now he's back in the house.


Is that working for you?


----------



## turnera

IIWY, I'd be seeing the therapist alone as well as with him. Let the therapist guide you in how to stand up for yourself. 

We're not telling you to make some bold, grand gesture that you can't come back from. On that show, she never intended to never see him again. She just didn't want to be around him after what he did. Women do that. 

When my H does something he knows I hate, like snap at me when I've done nothing wrong, I give him 'that look' and leave the room; I'll then spend 4 or 5 hours in some other part of the house. After starting this, he's gone from about 5 'snapping' incidents a day to one every few days. He's learning because (1) he now knows my boundary (don't treat me like that) and (2) he's now seen my consequence. My consequences is something that is in MY control (leaving the room, stop helping him, whatever) that helps me regain my composure, but it also affects him. He now KNOWS he'll get abandoned for a few hours if he treats me that way. So he LEARNED, and I didn't have to nag or whine or cry. I stated what I won't put up with, and when he did it anyway, poof! I'm outta there.

Coincidentally, it's the same way you're supposed to raise kids, it's part of the authoritative parenting style. You explain what's expected, you explain the consequences if they CHOOSE not to do what's expected, and then you calmly - without emotion - enact the consequence. That way, the kid SEES that he could have chosen the expected way and be fine, but if he doesn't, and he's suffering the consequence, well, guess who's gonna think twice before doing it again? And all along, it was entirely in his control.


----------



## Roselyn

Roselyn said:


> I would compile your evidence of his texts messages and emails. I would not divulge this information as of yet. I believe that there may be more to this situation. Until you have a body of evidence that you can present to the marriage counselor, I would keep this to myself.


What I meant when I said that "I believe that there are more to this situation" is that their messages could contain information that shows a conspiracy to eventually leave you out. It will take great courage on your part to see your husband participating in planning the demise of your marriage. 

Be strong, OP. Your man is a wet noodle. However, if you wish to keep your marriage you must have a good self-esteem and be vigilant. I don't believe that your marriage will continue with Amy in the picture.


----------



## TRy

PieOhMy said:


> So I looked at my husband's text messages. Amy had messaged him the Monday morning after are fight. This was the convo:
> Amy: You ok?
> H: I don't know
> Amy: Breathe deep
> Amy: Well we're happy to have you in our lives again! You can teach baby Liam about cars! We really missed you! And our families!"
> H: I missed you guys too
> Amy: Don't go away again!
> H: I'm not
> Amy: *thumbs up*
> 
> And then tonight she texted him again saying:
> Amy: How are ya?!
> Amy: My mama wants to see you.


 In your first post you stated that four years ago "When our relationship got serious, Amy had a huge problem with my husband and I being together. And John seemed to follow her lead. It eventually came to the point that my husband was being so passive and they were saying such hurtful things, that I told him that I'm not putting up with it anymore and it's either them or me. He picked me." He is now breaking that promise without your consent. You made it clear that you would not have married him if he did not make that promise, so that is a promise he must now keep if he wants to stay in this marriage. You do not have children with this jerk, now is the best time to leave if you are going to. 

When Amy told your husband "Don't go away again!", that was her directly asking your husband to break his promise to you and to pick her over you. That showed that she still has no respect for you or your feelings. Your husband telling her "I'm not", is him directly telling her that he is now picking her over you. It also puts her and your husband on the inside as a team against you, with you left on the outside alone. There is nothing vague in this. As your husband, he made a vow to let no one come between the two of you, and he is now also breaking that promise. 

Tell you husband that if they were truly sorry for the way that they treated you in the past, and had any respect for you as his wife, they would have apologized to you and not him, and would be asking you and not him for another chance instead of talking around you like they are now doing. This is just what they did before. They wanted a friendship with just your husband and not you 4 years ago, and they are showing by their actions that nothing has changed in that regard today. 

Tell him that this is why you are now insisting that he keep his promise to cut off all contact with them that he made to get you to marry him, and that you are willing to end the marriage if he does not keep this promise. If you are not strong on this now, you will regret it later. You do not need marriage counseling to make this stand, just do it now.


----------



## Roselyn

PieOhMy said:


> So I looked at my husband's text messages. Amy had messaged him the Monday morning after are fight. This was the convo:
> Amy: You ok?
> H: I don't know
> Amy: Breathe deep
> Amy: Well we're happy to have you in our lives again! You can teach baby Liam about cars! We really missed you! And our families!"
> H: I missed you guys too
> Amy: Don't go away again!
> H: I'm not
> Amy: *thumbs up*


Sorry OP. Try's analysis is better than mine. Yes, your husband has chosen Amy over you. This would hurt me deeply if I were you. Stay strong and work on having self-esteem.


----------



## PieOhMy

I'm going to do my best to enjoy this weekend with him. My little cousins are coming to visit for the holiday as well. So I'm going to try to make this as good as possible. Tuesday night is our next appointment, so right after the weekend. And I have a feeling the therapist is going to focus on me this time. So I'm going to compose a list of things that I want to say and also lay down my boundaries (a lot will probably be things you all have stated to me, thanks!). So as I go through my list, I'm going to post it here, and then hopefully you can all comment on whatever you see fit. 

I won't have my phone on me much this weekend. Hopefully this post doesn't get closed or anything. But if you don't hear from me, just keep posting! I love reading what you all have to say. And I'll be sure to respond when we get back Sunday night. Thanks again!


----------



## TRy

PieOhMy said:


> Tuesday night is our next appointment, so right after the weekend. And I have a feeling the therapist is going to focus on me this time. So I'm going to compose a list of things that I want to say and also lay down my boundaries (a lot will probably be things you all have stated to me, thanks!).


 If you are lucky and have a good therapist this will be OK, my worry is that there are a lot of bad therapists, it which case things will go bad. The truth is that you do not need a therapists to tell you what you will or will not tolerate in your marriage. The disrespect toward you shown by the other woman, and allowed by your husband, is and should be a deal breaker. At this point the therapist only serves as a possible complication that allows your husband more time and breathing room.


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## turnera

As soon as you get into the appointment, hold up your hand to stop any talk, and say "I want to say something." And then read your list. Trust me. That will help keep it from being derailed. MCs often follow whoever brings up a problem, but you are the client, so lead the discussion.


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## synthetic

BTW, if it comes down to separating, you have no right to keep him out of the house unless he volunteers. If you want to do the 180, LEAVE.

I have no idea why some women think they can kick their husbands out. That's the most disrespectful thing you can do to a man. If you're unhappy, then leave.


----------



## Roselyn

Synthetic: I believe that they are living in her father's house. They are saving money to buy their own house. I'm not sure if her father is in residence with them. If he is and he wants him out, he can keep him out.


----------



## synthetic

Roselyn said:


> Synthetic: I believe that they are living in her father's house. They are saving money to buy their own house. I'm not sure if her father is in residence with them. If he is and he wants him out, he can keep him out.


Got it.


----------



## synthetic

See, cases like this are why I don't believe in marriage counseling much.

It's a crystal clear case of "HEY Sir, Hey Madam, keep your crappy friends out of your marriage and don't talk to me until they're out of the picture".

But no! The counselor wants to make money, so everyone's argument (valid or invalid) has to get diluted to the point of 'not mattering'. That's what these counselors do. They dilute the situation until both parties simply give up without resolving anything.


----------



## Divinely Favored

PieOhMy said:


> He's trying to be all nice now. But I'm still very sad and pissed off. In the next session, I'm going to say the following:
> 
> My husband expressed to me that he used to have feelings for Amy for "the longest time." To the extent that it was obvious enough to John to say once, while they were having a rough patch in their dating years, "Why don't you just f*ck her?" My husband didn't pursue, but it just goes to show that I'm not the only one that has noticed this. My concern is that he's always had some sort of emotional attachment to her. He jumped into beds with her, he always stopped at her work alone, whenever she needed something, my husband was there. She was married during all of this. And he was dating me. I couldn't help but feel he still and always will have feelings for her. That this was some sort of emotional affair for him, whether he knew it or not. When his friends chose to start talking down about me to my husband, Amy always took the lead. She was okay with my company until she saw that my husband and I were becoming serious. Once that happened, she couldn't stop saying how terrible I was and that my husband needed to drop me. During this time, my husband started hiding these things from me, lying to me about it, going to their house without me only to hear them say it again, and although he might have attempted to stick up for me, he decided to keep letting it go on. I eventually stepped in and confronted Amy about it, and she flipped out on me via text, stating that she didn't like me and will never like me. When my husband didn't take a handle on the situation, I told him that I wasn't going to put up with this and that it's either me or his friends. He picked me. But resented me for it ever since. And now, only having them back in our lives for these few days, he's already hurt me again. She did not like the idea of losing her Plan B then, and hearing that they were having problems in their marriage tells me that she liked having my husband as her back up. And I wouldn't be surprised if she's already tried to secure my husband as a back up already, now. I'm sure she's already said how much she missed him and that he better never leave her again. I feel they're a threat to our relationship and that we've made it four years without them once, and we can do it again. I can't help but feel that if my husband was actually happy with me and we were at a better place, that he would have never started talking to them again. I don't want them in our lives. I think they pose a risk and I think my husband is not a good husband when they're in his life. And to be honest, I don't want to live in my marriage that way.
> 
> What do you think? Any pointers? Changes?



Sounds to me like a perfect post to print and bring up all points in MC.


----------



## zillard

synthetic said:


> See, cases like this are why I don't believe in marriage counseling much.
> 
> It's a crystal clear case of "HEY Sir, Hey Madam, keep your crappy friends out of your marriage and don't talk to me until they're out of the picture".
> 
> But no! The counselor wants to make money, so everyone's argument (valid or invalid) has to get diluted to the point of 'not mattering'. That's what these counselors do. They dilute the situation until both parties simply give up without resolving anything.


Some, certainly. Some will have both people actually write a list of boundaries and stress the importance of respecting and enforcing them. 

Sure, it doesn't take a counselor to do any of that, but often it takes a neutral third party to get the people to understand that enforcing them is OK, and that yes, they should be respected if there is to be a healthy relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Divinely Favored

I think the "Sorry" (excuse for an apology) they made was not sincere. It was made because they knew their behavior toward you is what started the rift between you and them, which caused the separation. 

They only said "Sorry" through hubby hoping you will not take him away again. If they did not humbly apologize to your face for being asses, it was not real. You need to forgive but I still would not allow them in my circle!

I would also tell her hubby about the spooning in the past and way he acted around Amy. Going by work and house when he was working. "If you were not home and Amy was willing, I believe my hubby would jump at the chance to have sex with her" 

Let him chew on that. He may be gullible and not even realize it till its pointed out. How many are blindsided by spouses having sex with their best friends.

His talking bad about you may be because **** Amy and hubby said about you. He may not know the truth. He sounds like a follower.


----------



## PieOhMy

We've turned off our phones for this weekend. Obviously I just turned mine on because I wanted to see what you all had to say. But I have made up my mind. These people will not be in our lives. And if my husband is not okay with that, well then the marriage is over. So far, the weekend has gone fairly well. But it's only Saturday. He was a little grumpy at first, but I did what that one post said. I walked away and went to bed and ignored him for about 2 hours. He eventually came creeping in all like baffled or whatever. I ignored him a little longer. Then eventually I told him I want to go get something to eat. He hasn't been fresh since. But, like I said, it's only been one day. 

Do you think I should bring that up with the MC? The list of boundaries and what not?


----------



## Jeffyboy

I find wearing a bonnet helps me think! 

It started by accident in a play I was performing in.

I had to wear a checkered bonnet....I could remember
my lines, moves, and all the other players also.

It was like a magic cap!

Just for a hoot I took the bonnet home with me, and 
found my thinking about everything from God to Homosexuality 
clearer, more grounded.

I have purchased several bonnets now and find different colors 
take my mind in different directions with just as astounding
clear thinking!

There is no over thinking while wearing a bonnet. The thoughts 
are clear and distinct. Honest thinking....I suggest you try a 
bonnet ....pick one out that appeals to you...it is reaching out 
to you ...it knows!

Some might think a bonnet is just some cloth sewn together...
but it was sewn by human hands or a machine ran by a human
that energy transmits into the material and because it goes on the head the head eletricity fills into the cloth fiber bostered by the colorof the bonnet or the pattern design of the head gear...

you cannot overthink, just clear wonderful thinking!


----------



## PieOhMy

Home. Weekend went good. We just turned on our phones again. I definitely want to follow the "remove myself" when being disrespected thing. He's kind of hiding his phone already...I don't like it. Our next MC session of Tuesday night. I'm probably going to check his messages before then, to see who he's talking to.


----------



## PieOhMy

I decided to check them now. He's still texting John, but still hasn't responded back to Amy. John asked how we are doing (my husband told John that we were having problems and he thinks I'm controlling, etc.). He told John that we're doing good, that we just came back from the shore.

Uh...I feel like saying, "if you're still texting John, then we're not doing good." 

And I guess John asked my husband if he could order a car part for him (my husband works at auto shop), and my husband said he'll order it on Tuesday when he gets back to work.

Doesn't sound like he plans on stopping communication with them.


----------



## turnera

At least he's not texting her. Be ok with that for now.


----------



## PieOhMy

That's what I keep telling myself. He's probably going to say that he won't talk to her, he'll only talk to and see John. And that that should be enough. I know that's what he's going to say. Or he's going to say that he can't avoid Amy because she's John's wife and that I need to just accept it, "trust him."


----------



## PieOhMy

I'm beginning to feel like he IS just trying to please me by going to MC. But I am done with this. He's obviously trying to hide that he's talking to them. 

I know he stopped talking to Amy (for now), and I'm sure she'll reach out again and keep trying to secure my husband as her Plan B. Amy's brother is already asking my husband to go smoke weed with him, fortunately my husband told him no (my husband and I aren't smokers at all, we've both tried it in the past but never pursued it). And John, I think is just ****ing clueless. My husband used to tell me that he wouldn't be surprised if Amy cheated on John or left him, because John was crazy in love with her but she never seemed to reciprocate. 

He tried telling the therapist that they apologized, that they seemed to have grown up, that John admitted to him and Amy having to go to counseling for "5 or 6 sessions." And that they've been married for longer than we have and are expecting a baby. That's what he keeps telling himself to make it all okay for him to maintain a relationship. 

I don't even want to say much in the next therapy session except:

"I'm done with being disrespected. I'm done with disrespecting myself by putting up with this and trying to act like it's okay. Because it's not okay. At all. I'm following my gut and my heart. And I'm done doubting myself. I don't want these people in my life. John, Amy, and her brother, I'm done having them in our lives. My husband has always known my boundaries and he still knows to this day. I've given it a lot of thought, and I know that I will not be respecting myself or this marriage if I accept these people in our lives. If my husband chooses that he wants to have a relationship with these people, then that's his choice. I've made mine."

Anything else I should add on?


----------



## PieOhMy

And if the therapist asks me questions or asks me for more details, I'm just going to say:

"I'd be more than happy to go into the breakdown as to why I am not comfortable with these people. But to be honest, at this point, it has less to do with them and more to do with my husband, my marriage and my self respect. As I said before, I don't like the type of person my husband is with them in our lives. He made bad choices that hurt me and our marriage in the past, and now he's doing it again. I think they are a threat to our marriage and will cause a lot of problems in the future, that actions speak louder than words, and that their apology is pointless if they continue to reach out to my husband and not bother contacting me. And even greater, I know I will lose respect for my husband and for myself if I accept these people in our lives and continue this marriage. I love my husband and want this marriage, but not at the price of my self respect."

Anything I should change?


----------



## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> "I'm done with being disrespected. I'm done with disrespecting myself by putting up with this and trying to act like it's okay. Because it's not okay. At all. I'm following my gut and my heart. And I'm done doubting myself. I don't want these people in my life. John, Amy, and her brother, I'm done having them in *MY LIFE*. My husband has always known my boundaries and he still knows to this day. I've given it a lot of thought, and I know that I will not be respecting myself or this marriage if I accept these people in *MY LIFE*. If my husband chooses that he wants to have a relationship with these people, then that's his choice. I've made mine."
> 
> Anything else I should add on?


I would just change this. 

You aren't telling him what HE has to do. He's welcome to muck it up with them all he wants. 

He'll just do it DIVORCED.


----------



## PieOhMy

Got it! Good point lol.

Btw. Almost forgot to mention this. I must have a sign on my house that says "All exes of all sorts are more than welcome to come stop at my house whenever they please." I've had two ex bfs and one ex hook up stop by my house in the past 4 years of my marriage. And the third one stopped by on Friday before my husband came home. He asked how I was doing and wanted to say hi, etc. I told him I appreciated him stopping by but that I am married now and he said he understood, and I told him to take care. There was some small talk at first but as soon as I brought up my marriage, he knew where I was going with the conversation lol. And he left. 

I would never pursue this guy, but the timing couldn't be crazier. I decided to look at his visit as a sign from my mom saying, "I hope things work out for you and H. But if it doesn't, it's not the end of the world. Don't settle for less. Love you and love yourself."


----------



## TRy

PieOhMy said:


> And if the therapist asks me questions or asks me for more details, I'm just going to say:
> 
> "I'd be more than happy to go into the breakdown as to why I am not comfortable with these people. But to be honest, at this point, it has less to do with them and more to do with my husband, my marriage and my self respect. As I said before, I don't like the type of person my husband is with them in our lives. He made bad choices that hurt me and our marriage in the past, and now he's doing it again. I think they are a threat to our marriage and will cause a lot of problems in the future, that actions speak louder than words, and that their apology is pointless if they continue to reach out to my husband and not bother contacting me. And even greater, I know I will lose respect for my husband and for myself if I accept these people in our lives and continue this marriage. I love my husband and want this marriage, but not at the price of my self respect."
> 
> Anything I should change?


 I like what you wrote. Below I have highlighted what I would add to it.

"I'd be more than happy to go into the breakdown as to why I am not comfortable with these people. But to be honest, at this point, it has less to do with them and more to do with my husband, my marriage and my self respect. As I said before, I don't like the type of person my husband is with them in our lives. He made bad choices that hurt me and our marriage in the past, and now he's doing it again. I think they are a threat to our marriage and will cause a lot of problems in the future, that actions speak louder than words, and that their apology is pointless since if they continue to reach out to my husband and not bother contacting me. *Additionally, if they were truly sorry for the way that they treated me in the past, and had any respect for me as his wife, they would have apologized to me and not him, and would be asking me and not him for another chance instead of talking around me like they are now doing; this only proves that nothing has changed with them in regards to the toxic attitude that they have towards me. * And even greater, I know I will lose respect for my husband and for myself if I accept these people in our lives and continue this marriage. I love my husband and want this marriage, but not at the price of my self respect."


----------



## Roselyn

Good luck, OP. I'm glad to see that you're seeing the whole picture. You know what you want. You want peace, without Amy & her husband. I hope that all will go well with your next session in marriage counseling.

Don't let that counselor drag your sessions. You know what you want and it is needless for you to shell so much money. Your husband can either chose you or Amy; simple as that.


----------



## PieOhMy

If anyone's going to be dragging, I think it will be my husband. Because he's already reconnected with all of them. I wish I could give him a deadline about making a decision. I don't know how I'd go about it. Like, I could say this in MC but I have a feeling he's going to ask for more time to think about it. Either because he wants to wait it out and see if they'd actually be a threat or because he is avoiding confrontation. Or, because he's going to choose them. And I don't feel like going for a ride, waiting this out for weeks. I don't know how to say that in MC.


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## turnera

That's easy. "I'm giving my H until June 1 to say his goodbyes to this couple. If I ever see them in his life or my life again after that point, I WILL be divorcing. I'm not telling him what to do. I'm telling him (stop and look at him) - I'm telling you that if having them in your life is more important than having me in your life, you are welcome to have them. But you will be divorced."


----------



## TRy

PieOhMy said:


> If anyone's going to be dragging, I think it will be my husband. Because he's already reconnected with all of them. I wish I could give him a deadline about making a decision. I don't know how I'd go about it. Like, I could say this in MC but I have a feeling he's going to ask for more time to think about it. Either because he wants to wait it out and see if they'd actually be a threat or because he is avoiding confrontation. Or, because he's going to choose them. And I don't feel like going for a ride, waiting this out for weeks. I don't know how to say that in MC.


 Tell him that in a choice between you or them, if he needs to think about it, that confirms that you were right in feeling that they made it such that you were not number 1 in his life, and why you would be right in not wanting to stay in such a marriage.


----------



## TRy

turnera said:


> That's easy. "I'm giving my H until June 1 to say his goodbyes to this couple. If I ever see them in his life or my life again after that point, I WILL be divorcing. I'm not telling him what to do. I'm telling him (stop and look at him) - I'm telling you that if having them in your life is more important than having me in your life, you are welcome to have them. But you will be divorced."


 I agree with everything that you said except the date of June 1, as the OP's husband should not get to go over and spend days with them bad mouthing the OP over this. This would in fact make the OP's husband resent the OP even more.


----------



## Nucking Futs

So you're going to give him an ultimatum, them or you? From the first post in this thread:



PieOhMy said:


> It eventually came to the point that my husband was being so passive and they were saying such hurtful things, that I told him that I'm not putting up with it anymore and it's either them or me. He picked me. But has resented me for it ever since.


Seems to me like you already gave that ultimatum and it didn't work out so well. There's a famous quote that fits here: "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

So you'll give him the ultimatum, he'll argue and sulk and eventually choose you and cut them off again, resent you for the next few years, then get in contact with them again, you'll give him another ultimatum, etc., etc.

Have you ever thought how nice it would be to have a spouse that would have your back? That would be a nice change from what you have now, wouldn't it?

I think you're wasting your time.


----------



## happy as a clam

Nucking Futs said:


> "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
> 
> ...Have you ever thought how nice it would be to have a spouse that would have your back? That would be a nice change from what you have now, wouldn't it?
> 
> I think you're wasting your time.


:iagree:

Your husband is a selfish and immature, sulky and pouty man-child. Certainly not a man who has your back.


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## PieOhMy

I thought of that. I thought of maybe mentioning the need for him taking responsibility for his own choices for once in his life. To stop pointing fingers at me and live with the decisions he's made and make the best out of what you have, just keep moving forward. But I'm not sure when I should say that or how without sounding like I'm reprimanding him in front of the therapist.

Do you think I should say that? Or change it?


----------



## turnera

What you do is state it in terms of what YOU need in YOUR life. I need a man who's willing to admit he made a mistake. Who can accept that my idea might be as good as his. Who can let his wife ask to get something done around the house without getting an attitude about it so she feels bad.

Oops, talking about ME, lol.

But you get the idea. State what YOU need, and then state that that is not what you are currently getting. And then state that you're not sure you can stay in a marriage where you're not getting it. There. Now it's in HIS hands. And, if he feels he can't/won't DO or BE those things, then you two amicably decide to part ways.


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## Roselyn

PieOhMy said:


> I thought of that. I thought of maybe mentioning the need for him taking responsibility for his own choices for once in his life. To stop pointing fingers at me and live with the decisions he's made and make the best out of what you have, just keep moving forward. But I'm not sure when I should say that or how without sounding like I'm reprimanding him in front of the therapist.
> 
> Do you think I should say that? Or change it?


No change, OP. Your husband must be responsible for his own choices and not blame anyone. Don't worry about what the therapist think of you. You are at the end of your rope and rightly so. 

I believe that this connecting with Amy & her husband should not have been allowed to happen by your husband. You deserve a husband who is all in the marriage. He's placed you in a tortured Plan B position. Ceasing their friendship must end immediately. I'm sorry to say to you that you must be prepared to end this marriage. I just hope that your husband loves and values you over Amy.


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## TRy

Nucking Futs said:


> Have you ever thought how nice it would be to have a spouse that would have your back? That would be a nice change from what you have now, wouldn't it?


:iagree::iagree::iagree: 
The OP needs to read this and really think about what Nucking Futs is saying here. The fact is that the OP's husband did not have her back 4 years ago when the other couple was allowed by him to bad mouth her, and does not have her back today as the other couple continues to cast the OP in a bad light. One of the prime requirements in marriage is knowing that you are a team that always has each other's backs. Always, not sometime only when it is convenient, but always even when it is not easy.


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## TRy

PieOhMy said:


> But he's been talking to John about the counseling.


 I meant to bring this up before. Marriage counseling is suppose to be between just the two spouses and the MC. This is a martial boundary that you have a right to expect him to respect. The fact that your husband is sharing what is going on in these sessions with this other couple is just another example of your husband betraying your trust, and why you do not want them in your life. Point this out to the MC first thing in your next session.


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## PieOhMy

Nucking Futs said:


> So you're going to give him an ultimatum, them or you? From the first post in this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems to me like you already gave that ultimatum and it didn't work out so well. There's a famous quote that fits here: "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
> 
> So you'll give him the ultimatum, he'll argue and sulk and eventually choose you and cut them off again, resent you for the next few years, then get in contact with them again, you'll give him another ultimatum, etc., etc.
> 
> Have you ever thought how nice it would be to have a spouse that would have your back? That would be a nice change from what you have now, wouldn't it?
> 
> I think you're wasting your time.


I've thought about this as well. I'm still thinking hard about it now. I don't know if I'm ready to say that yet. Sometimes I feel like I could just walk away. Sometimes I feel like I'll just fall apart because I do love him so much. I know I won't. Because I've been through worse. 

If I were to say I want a divorce, I would want to say it during the MC session. If I'm ready to say that. But I don't even know where to start. I feel like I'd need to go in there with a plan or else I won't stick to my guns.


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## turnera

That's why it's better to say 'if he chooses them, then I will start making plans to divorce.' Let him interpret that as he wants; in the meantime, you start separating finances, making plans, looking for your own place. Could be this summer, could be next summer, who knows? As long as he SEES you making plans, there's a chance he might wake up and not want to lose you. And if he doesn't, you've made those strides toward moving out.


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## PieOhMy

I don't actually need to move out, it's my father's house and I know he'd want me there. I would definitely divide finances. I don't have a pre-nup though. I'm scared to bring it up in therapy. Because I would still love to get a post nup. Can I still get one after four years of marriage? I would want one because I inherited money from my mom. Not much, but I still wouldn't want him to touch any of it.


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## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> I don't actually need to move out, it's my father's house and I know he'd want me there. I would definitely divide finances. I don't have a pre-nup though. I'm scared to bring it up in therapy. Because I would still love to get a post nup. Can I still get one after four years of marriage? I would want one because I inherited money from my mom. Not much, but I still wouldn't want him to touch any of it.


Good questions for a lawyer, as that will differ state to state. 

As for mentioning divorce in session, that's where I did it. I stated that I wanted honesty, and so should also be transparent. Then said that I do not want divorce, but have consulted with a divorce attorney. 

After that, she chose divorce and I proceeded to file.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happy as a clam

This situation is appearing more and more hopeless.

Divorce this loser now. Before he finds a way to finagle half of your father's house away from you.

Then decide if he has ANY redeeming qualities that might make you even CONSIDER dating him or reconciling in the future.


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## PieOhMy

I'm not ready to ask for a divorce. I'm ready to ask for respect, and if denied, then ask for a divorce. But as of right now, I don't want to jump there. I would like to see how things go. He's changed in the past with certain subjects, I guess I'm curious to see if he's got any more change left in him. 

I will make it clear at the session tomorrow about his friends or me. And continued therapy. But I am ready to face facts if he doesn't choose the better way. I'm expecting the worst, my hopes are not high. I just hope I am able to relay everything I've posted here without losing my nerve or forgetting important parts.


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## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> I'm not ready to ask for a divorce. I'm ready to ask for respect, and if denied, then ask for a divorce.


A little confused, here. Are you saying you're going to wait and SEE if he gives you respect, like over the next 12 months, and then make plans to leave? Or are you talking about keeping those two out of your life and making your decision NOW?



PieOhMy said:


> . But as of right now, I don't want to jump there. I would like to see how things go.


Again, what does that mean? You're going to wait, and monitor, and see if she shows up in ANOTHER two years?

I'm asking because if you state AGAIN that you want them out of your life or you're leaving, and he then KEEPS them in his life...what does that say about you? How dumb and gullible does that make you in his eyes? You SAY you want blah blah blah, but we all know she's never leaving me.

What's wrong with my suggestion to say 'her or me,' and if he won't cut her out, START making your plans to move out, even if it takes til next summer? That will (1) prove to him that you're serious and to be respected and (2) give him time to hit that come to Jesus moment and really change.



PieOhMy said:


> He's changed in the past with certain subjects, I guess I'm curious to see if he's got any more change left in him.


Just to be clear, have you had the discussion where you said 'I need you to change ABC; so what would you like me to change about myself?' Or is it all just your way or the highway?


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## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> I just hope I am able to relay everything I've posted here without losing my nerve or forgetting important parts.


We've told you to write it out and read it out loud to them.


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## happy as a clam

Hoo boy...

Well if you're going to sit back awhile longer, continue to be disrespected, and watch this unravel further, at the very least check with an attorney and make sure your SOLE ownership in the house is ironclad. The longer you remain married the better chance he has of worming away a portion of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## azteca1986

I'm going to be a slightly dissenting voice here. I think you're moving too fast. You're not ready for divorce. Yet.

_“Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win”_ - Sun Tzu



PieOhMy said:


> I don't actually need to move out, it's my father's house and I know he'd want me there. I would definitely divide finances. I don't have a pre-nup though. I'm scared to bring it up in therapy. Because I would still love to get a post nup. Can I still get one after four years of marriage? I would want one because I inherited money from my mom. Not much, but I still wouldn't want him to touch any of it.


Don't give any sort of ultimatum till you have answers to these questions. Strategically you must know your next step or two, fully armed with legal advice, before you have the - it's them or me talk.

Personally, I think the subject of your next MC meeting should be the fact that immediately after your last session your H was asking to meet up with them. If he really thought that was a viable question he doesn't get it, or doesn't want to get it. 

Your H will say "but they've been my friends since high school". The simple fact is after marriage they have to be "our friends", they have to be friends of the marriage or not at all. Friends have to be judged on quality, not the length of time you've known them. And I say this having cut my only sibling out of our lives because he and his wife put pressure on our marriage. So they had to go.

In the long run it makes no difference whether you give the ultimatum today or a couple of sessions from now. When he eventually let's you down (we can all see that coming), make sure you've already consulted with a lawyer and already know your legal standing financially. When he lets you down, you'll be emotionally distraught so get your ducks in order now whilst you have a relatively clear head.


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## AliceA

Honestly, it would drive me nuts to have this sort of problem, however, everyone has to remember that the OP married this man while having poor boundaries, has struggled enormously in the past to enforce some boundaries, and so will unlikely be able to make the decision to divorce because of these same issues. Pie's lack of being able to embrace the idea of letting go means he won't take any threat seriously. If you can't say it and mean it, don't say it at all imo. I don't think the OP should mention divorce because of this.


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## PieOhMy

Tunera: What I meant is that I would do what you said. I'm not ready to go straight into the MC session and say I want a divorce because I've married a total idiot. But I am ready to go into the MC session, state my boundaries and give my ultimatum. And if he chooses them, to then tell him that I will be consulting an attorney and will start to split up the finances. And that even if he did decide to put them out, that I would want a post-nuptial agreement made and continue MC.


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## PieOhMy

And I would be expecting an answer from him tonight. Maybe I'd give it another week, or until the next MC session, tops. Depending on how the session goes. But I would take that as a no for now and proceed with separating our assets. 

I am going to call my cousin today (he's an attorney) and ask about a post-nuptial agreement and divorce. Ask him about divorce proceedings and about finances, etc.


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## PieOhMy

And we have talked about what we all need to work on. Both of us. I had become a very emotional and controlling person during my mother's illness, and after her death, I finally went to counseling. And I've come a long way. I'm off my medications, I workout (just walking lol) and my diet is a lot better. And I feel a lot better. I know the events of my mother's illness and marriage at such a young age changed me a lot, but I'm almost back to feeling like I did before **** hit the fan. 

My husband had stated in the past that I am too controlling, too emotional, manipulative, crazy and that he wanted me the way I was when we first got married. 

Now he says that I'm too emotional and selfish, and that everything I do is to only benefit me. That not everything should be on my terms.

I ask for him to stop resenting me for his own decisions. Stop pointing fingers at me and blaming me for his problems with his family. To stop putting me down, to not get handsy with me. To take responsibility for his own actions and decisions. And to respect me and appreciate me.


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## PieOhMy

My way or the highway...I don't think so. I've tried things his way, when they didn't work out, I stepped up and put my foot down. Whether it was when he always wanted to send money to his parents overseas, when his brother was giving us bull for being together, when his parents didn't want us to be together, etc. And those situations are much better now. 

When he says he doesn't like things on my terms, he's really saying that he wants them done on his terms only and for me to just deal with it. Whereas I see it as compromising. 

Like this past weekend, it was clear in therapy that this weekend was going to be just for us to spend some time together and turn our phones off. And then while we're packing for the shore, he says he wants to invite his brother to the house (which isn't even mine, it's my Aunt's) or we go spend the day with him at this old quarry that's suppose to be really nice now. I had told him that i didn't feel comfortable asking my Aunt for him and his girlfriend over at the house, my aunt barely sees him (and isn't the biggest fan lol). And that I thought this weekend was suppose to be alone time for us. He didn't respond so I tried to compromise and ask him if he wanted to try meeting his brother for dinner somewhere. He asked if they could come back to the house afterwards if we did, I said no and repeated that I didn't feel comfortable asking my Aunt that. And then he was like, "then no." So I said, "okay, I tried." And it didn't come up again. 

In that situation, he would say that's it's on my terms. Which honestly, my terms would have been no to his brother, period. But I was trying to make it work.


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## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> My husband had stated in the past that I am too controlling, too emotional, manipulative, crazy and that he wanted me the way I was when we first got married.
> 
> Now he says that I'm too emotional and selfish, and that everything I do is to only benefit me. That not everything should be on my terms.


Those are common complaints from men. They marry a woman and, when she has to step up and become the 'mom' of the family to keep it going, the men often start resenting her for treating him like a child (in his mind) just like his mom did. 

That's an important thing to discuss in therapy - that you are NOT his mom, but you DO need him to step up and get things done.


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## zillard

turnera said:


> Those are common complaints from men. They marry a woman and, when she has to step up and become the 'mom' of the family to keep it going, the men often start resenting her for treating him like a child (in his mind) just like his mom did.
> 
> That's an important thing to discuss in therapy - that you are NOT his mom, but you DO need him to step up and get things done.


True, but also works both ways. I was often resented for acting like the father. 

Best way to combat those complaints? Stop being parental. 

Parents do things their children are capable of doing, but have not yet mastered. In an adult relationship, those things are often done out of love, but too much (picking up slack w/o appreciation or request) is being parental. 

Making lunches when other partner has time, w/o reciprocation.
Ensuring partner gets out of bed on time, when they have own alarm.
Etc.


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## PieOhMy

I brought that up with him alone and in MC. I said that all I've ever wanted was for him to take the lead, to step up to the plate when there was a threat to our marriage or to me. To protect me. But I felt like he was too passive and always waited for things to get better on their own. And I told the therapist that I'm the type that likes to take care of stuff at the door. That i think it's better to take care of things now so they're better later.


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## turnera

zillard said:


> True, but also works both ways. I was often resented for acting like the father.
> 
> Best way to combat those complaints? Stop being parental.
> 
> Parents do things their children are capable of doing, but have not yet mastered. In an adult relationship, those things are often done out of love, but too much (picking up slack w/o appreciation or request) is being parental.
> 
> Making lunches when other partner has time, w/o reciprocation.
> Ensuring partner gets out of bed on time, when they have own alarm.
> Etc.


I think most women start OUT being how you describe. But as is typical, the longer you're married, the less you want to do for each other (the book Getting The Love You Want describes this well); which is fine, but stuff still has to get done.

IMO, men are USED to a woman (used to be his mom, now his wife) making sure that the house stays clean, clothes are washed and put away, food is bought and cooked and waiting for him, dishes are put away, etc. Oh, and the kids are usually her responsibility 75%-80% of the time. And usually, the woman is ALSO working full time just like him.

Once in a while, a broken door may need fixed or a heavy piece of furniture moved, but more often than not, the man is NOT putting in the 1, 2, 3 hours a day that it takes to keep a house running. Yet, what I typically see in marriages is that the woman asks the man to get something done, he balks because he feels his 'mom' is making him do stuff, so he may do it, eventually, or not at all. Some guys are great about helping and get it. Others aren't. And the wives of those men who aren't, well, like I said, the stuff still has to get done. She can either take on even MORE work, pay to get it done, or keep reminding him. And once she keeps reminding him, SHE becomes the bad guy.

I've seen this brought up in probably 40 or 50 marriages in the time I've been doing this, so I'm not just making this up or holding a grudge, before anyone suggests that. It is a legitimate problem in marriages today.


----------



## PieOhMy

The MC pointed out in our last session that my in law's relationship didn't have much balance. That most of the power was held by my husband's father and that his mother was a house wife, didn't work, and that most of the shots were called by his dad. And that in their marriage they didn't show much affection towards each other. So the MC pointed out that my husband is following the frame of his parent's relationship in some aspects. 

I know in this session he's going to try and get to know about my parent's history. But i know he's going to ask how things are going since our last session, and I'm going to bring up my husband asking about us seeing his friends right after our last session and lead with that and go into the ultimatum before things are dragged any farther off topic.


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## zillard

I agree many people suck at this. Who doesn't want a parental figure to do all these things for them? Who will just do it as long as they procrastinate long enough? Only an adult who realizes that it certainly DOES breed resentment. 

When you become the bad guy for reminding - you're not. Your partner is being an entitled teenager, blame shifting in an attempt to shirk responsibility.

That last sentence is exactly what Pie's husband is doing (and your's, from the sound of things).


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## turnera

lol, mine holds the Oscar in it. I will ask him to do something, maybe once a year (since I know he won't do anything and only ask when I have to), he'll look me right in the eyes, turn around without a word, and either go sit on the couch and take a nap, or else go outside and work in his forest on some made-up project that he'll later say he did for ME. My IC actually gave me the name of a contractor so I could hire out the work instead of asking him for anything.


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## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> The MC pointed out in our last session that my in law's relationship didn't have much balance. That most of the power was held by my husband's father and that his mother was a house wife, didn't work, and that most of the shots were called by his dad. And that in their marriage they didn't show much affection towards each other. So the MC pointed out that my husband is following the frame of his parent's relationship in some aspects.


This is important to understand. Very. However, more important for HIM to realize because, as an adult, this does not excuse anything.



PieOhMy said:


> I know in this session he's going to try and get to know about my parent's history. But i know he's going to ask how things are going since our last session, and I'm going to bring up my husband asking about us seeing his friends right after our last session and lead with that and go into the ultimatum before things are dragged any farther off topic.


As above, your learned behaviors and relationship patterns due to your family of origin are just as important for you to realize. However, that should already be happening with your IC. And if you have improved since mom's passing, your husband should be supportive and give you credit there. 

In MC, if/when that comes up, I'd point out that you have had an IC for that for X months/years and ask hubby why he hasn't.


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## PieOhMy

The MC has made contact with my IC already. He's pretty up to date. I told my IC to disclose whatever she needs from our sessions. I signed the forms and everything. So the MC definitely knows about my IC already. And he knows about my husband not being interested in therapy, period. I told him that I was so urgent about having a second session that first week was because I was afraid there would be too much time in between for my husband to withdraw from the idea. And the therapist asked my husband if that was accurate, and he said yes.

I do speak to my IC about my parents a lot. They actually had a very good relationship and were always on the same page except for when it came to my father's drinking. He's a functioning alcoholic. It was like day and night. But my mother had shielded me from most of that and she had also kind of kept my father in line, because once she got sick, it came as kind of as a surprise to me how much he actually drank. 

From what I saw, my parents seemed very loyal to each other, trusting, and my father very supportive and protective of my mother. However, I know he was sometimes a mean drunk to my mother and that's where most of their arguments came from. But after a traumatic event in my youth, my parents came closer and the mean drunk went away. He still drank but not nearly as much. Things seemed to get much better for my parents at that point. 

I know my mom's closest of friends mentioned that if my father hadn't changed and cut back on drinking, that my mother wanted to divorce him once I was out of college. Because she never wanted me to feel like I had to choose between the two and that she wanted me to have a stable home. And I think she was afraid she wouldn't be able to afford my school by herself. 

I was always closer to my mother. My dad and I now have a much closer relationship. But it's still hard to talk to him about certain things because he's still a man.


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## TRy

PieOhMy said:


> when his brother was giving us bull for being together, when his parents didn't want us to be together, etc. And those situations are much better now.


 Reading this, along with fact that his closes friends did not want the two of you to be together, and you have his parents, sibling, and closes friends not wanting him to be with you. Why? Being honest, from someone on the outside looking in, this is a red flag.


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## turnera

lol, this reminds me of my DD24's ex-boyfriend in 9th grade. Who's since been in and out of prison for drugs, child porn, etc. When she met his mom, she was so happy to meet DD, and she said 'Oh, I'm so glad you're dating my son, you've been so good for him." When I heard that, I thought uh-oh.


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## zillard

There could be many stupid reasons for them not liking her as a partner: race, religion, class, etc. Have seen it many times. 

Usually though, they make that stupid reason very obvious. 

Now I'm curious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

I dated my husband's older brother when I was in high school for about a year and a half. I broke up with him because he was physically abusive.


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## Roselyn

You married your old boyfriend's younger brother. Boy, that is awkward!


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## PieOhMy

My husband's response to what I said was that his friends are not a threat to our marriage and after hearing what I said, that he doesn't think this marriage will work. That I'm too set in my ways and hard headed.


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## PieOhMy

The MC told him not to jump on confronting me back and to just try and hear what I'm saying right now instead of looking at it as an ultimatum. 

I gave the therapist the history of the drama that went down between all of us. My husband insists that they really changed. And then our time was up. So I don't even know where things are left now. But my husband went upstairs and didn't want to talk to me.


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## turnera

This is just now? Or last week?


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## TRy

PieOhMy said:


> My husband's response to what I said was that his friends are not a threat to our marriage and after hearing what I said, that he doesn't think this marriage will work.


 Given the choice between her or you, he picked her and is willing to end the marriage for her. You were right to be concerned. The minute that they came back into you life, you were once again suppose to accept the role of second fiddle in your husband's life, and were suppose to be OK with knowing that they were all a team, and you were alone as the other couple was allowed to back bite you. Again, they pushed and he picked. At least you found out before children.


----------



## zillard

Sounds like this happened in session today. 

Pie - it also sounds like he's clearly, obviously, without a doubt made his choice. 

He'd rather orbit Amy. 
IMO, let him - move on.

So sorry, I know this sh!t isn't easy.


----------



## TRy

PieOhMy said:


> My husband insists that they really changed. And then our time was up. So I don't even know where things are left now. But my husband went upstairs and didn't want to talk to me.


 If they really changed they would respect your marriage, which they clearly do not. Your husband has them giving him advice to call your bluff, which is what he is doing.


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## PieOhMy

He came downstairs to eat dinner. After he ate, this was our conversation:

H: Was that an ultimatum or not?
Me: I don't even know what it is at this point. See it as you'd like.
H: Sounded like an ultimatum to me.
Me: I think you should stop looking at it as an ultimatum. I told you how I felt and told you my boundaries.
H: I'm letting you know right now, ultimatums aren't going to work with me. You give me ultimatums and things won't end well for you.
Me: I told you my boundaries. 
H: I'm doing things for me, now. Not you, not them, for me. Whether that means I have to push you away or push them away, or both and just start all over. I'm doing this for me.
Me: Okay. And these are my boundaries, and that's for me. 
H: Even the therapist knows it's an ultimatum 
Me: I believe he told you not to look at it that way and to hear that I'm expressing my feelings. 
H: No, he knows. You can tell, he knows that was an ultimatum.
Me: Well then that's something we'll talk about in our next session.
H: If we make it to the next session.
Me: Okay.
H: Ultimatums aren't going to work this time. Okay? 
Me: Okay. I hear you. These are my boundaries.
H: And now you've heard mine. Okay?
Me: Okay.

He went back upstairs after that. I'm going to give him some time to cool down. Give him space to cool down. And then maybe tomorrow morning in just going to send him a text saying this:

"I really am only trying to tell you my boundaries. I said that to you, knowing that you may not like it and that this relationship would end. And I want you to be happy. And I want to be happy. And if those boundaries aren't okay with you, then I understand. We deserve to be happy, whether that's together, or that's apart."

I'm pretty upset right now. So if I don't respond to you all immediately, please understand. But I'm still looking forward to all your thoughts. Thanks.


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## zillard

He's so full of it. Isn't a threat that things will end poorly for you if you issue an ultimatum, an ultimatum?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Roselyn

I read over your previous post. Your story began when you had a boyfriend of 1 1/2 years ago named Kyle who was 4 years older than you are. You broke up with Kyle.

You continued to communicate with his younger brother, Joe, who is presently your husband. Joe is the younger brother of your ex-boyfriend who is your age. You married Joe, simply to get him his green card so that he can stay in the country. You married him not for love, but for a green card. You claimed that you fell for each other. Are you sure?

Kyle and Joe had an altercation because of you. The turmoil within your husband's family resulted from your marriage with Joe. Amy & John are high school friends of Joe, so they are privy to your marriage for convenience. Amy & John have no respect for you. Joe is in love with Amy and is on beck and call for her.

You are now in this stage of your marriage. Joe talks to you like you do not matter. He has no respect for you. Why not end this charade? Your feelings for Joe is one sided. Are you sure that he is not staying with you because of security and gratitude? Think about this... if my husband of 35 years spoke to me the way Joe spoke to you, he would be out of the door from my father's house!


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## PieOhMy

That's right. I don't keep track of all the names I give us lol. But you got all the facts right. 

And that's what I was also hoping to change in MC. I hate the way he talks to me. He's so mad right now. But I feel like he's just mad at the world in general. Mad about his family, his friends, his life, me, all of it.


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## turnera

Men look SO ridiculous when they're beating their chests, don't they?

lol



PieOhMy said:


> I'm going to give him some time to cool down. Give him space to cool down. And then maybe tomorrow morning in just going to send him a text saying this:
> 
> "I really am only trying to tell you my boundaries. I said that to you, knowing that you may not like it and that this relationship would end. And I want you to be happy. And I want to be happy. And if those boundaries aren't okay with you, then I understand. We deserve to be happy, whether that's together, or that's apart."
> 
> I'm pretty upset right now.


Ok, first, how you handled that was AMAZING! One of the best responses to a blustering male that I've ever seen, especially after a counseling session. Pie, that was outstanding, it really was. You NEVER made it about him, kept it all about you and what YOU need, you never took his bait, not ONE of them. Give yourself a big pat on the back, ok?

Now, second, no matter what you do, DO NOT SEND HIM THAT MESSAGE. You have FINALLY shown him strength and he needs to steep in it, feel it, roll it around in his head and see what it looks and feels like, you having a backbone. Sending him that message is the same thing as you saying 'Heeeey, are you still mad at me? I hope you're not....so I was just checking in to see if you're talking to me yet. Please don't be mad, I really am just wanting us both to be happy...are you mad at me?'

Just remain calm, act upbeat, you've said your piece, now let him think about it. You're doing the same with what HE said, right? Just go about your business. He's waiting to see if you crack under his 'pressure' like you probably always have.

Let him see you're serious. And if you catch him contacting them again, let him see you looking for a lawyer.


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## Roselyn

How old are you and your husband? You deserve to be loved by a husband who is all in your marriage. I am 57 years old and married for 35 years. You deserve to be happy. You were gracious to your husband and loved him; yet, he treats you so badly. See a psychologist and work on building your self-esteem. It seems like he has chosen his way, without consideration to you. Have courage and walk away.


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## PieOhMy

I don't really want to talk to him right now. I just want to be left alone. I'm ready for the relationship to end. I don't want it to end. But I know that's what I have to do if he really means what he said. 

Like I said, we will probably be happier apart.


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## PieOhMy

This is true. I do want to send him that message. Perhaps I'll give it a few days though. Or if he comes to me about it. And yes, I was going to look at his messages tomorrow, see if he's talking to them.

We are both 26 years old.


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## PieOhMy

Nvm. I'll say that to him if he brings it up. Or in the next session. If we make it there lol.


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## PieOhMy

And I'm getting there with the courage. It's there. It's in focus. I just got to hold on to it now.


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## zillard

Please, contact a lawyer to get ahead of this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

Definitely plan to tomorrow.


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## Roselyn

OP: Perhaps, it would be a clean and better life for you if you shed your old life. You started this marriage as one of convenience. It's not going well as you have a husband who prefers the company of another woman. Too much drama in your current life that is not beneficial to your well-being. You are only 26 years of age. There is so much more life ahead of you.


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## PieOhMy

Sometimes I feel pretty stupid for thinking this marriage could work. I would never recommend my actions to someone else, knowing what I know now.


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## turnera

OMG, you're only 26? I thought you were 40 or 50! You're a baby! My DD24 is only just NOW meeting a guy she might eventually marry. They've been dating a year. She won't consider moving in with him for another year! And maybe marrying two years after that!

Get a divorce and start hanging out with people your age who are into you and love doing things with you, and experience life like you were meant to. He thought he married a doormat he could use. Prove him wrong.


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## PieOhMy

Yeah. I'm only 26.

I probably should shed all this. But I took my marriage very seriously and wanted to exhaust all possible resources before giving up on it. At least now I can walk away knowing that I have done so. MC was the last resource for me. It's all I had left in me.

I'm personally exhausted. I felt like I raised this man. When we got together, he only knew a good work ethic and to support his woman, financially. Great things but everything else, I felt like I had to teach him. Or even worse, he learned from me, and not the good way. He learned my immature habits too. I've grown out of most of them, but he's still swimming in them. It's an interesting pattern. But I don't think he ever really had any foundation in life until he met me. He was naive. And a follower.

I don't feel like I missed out on anything though, thank goodness. I took full advantage and enjoyed my youth before we got married. And still do. I love off roading with my truck and I love riding my motorcycle to no where lol. Have a lot of hobbies. Might try to get back into MMA or running again. I definitely got a good support group of friends and family. And definitely learned a lot from this experience.

Thanks everyone. I'll keep you posted and let you know how it goes from here and after I've spoken to a divorce attorney.


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## PieOhMy

My husband is in a surprisingly good mood this morning. I'm creeped out. Idk why. I dropped some cash off to him at work and he seemed completely normal. I asked if I'll be seeing him for lunch. He said yes, probably. I checked his messages, he hasn't talked to any of those friends. But he did get a message from his oldest friend, I'll call him Matt. Matt and my husband were friends since middle school. Before these other friends. He lives out of state so they haven't seen each other for years but stay in touch and are close. Matt just told my husband how he proposed to his girlfriend of four years. That's all his messages show. I don't know how to respond to my husband.


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## turnera

Like I said, just act like normal. You said your piece, he tried to up the ante, you didn't take the bait. Just go on. If he drops them and keeps treating you decently, keep on being married. If he acts like a jerk, move forward with separating. Remember, you're waiting for his cue at this stage. And remember that, like you said, he's just immature. What he did to you the other night, that's what a 14 year old would have done. It's all he knows. You have now shown him what an adult does with your response. Maybe he'll learn that from you, too.

Unless you're just done.


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## synthetic

> Unless you're just done.


Far from it. This one has a long way to go. Still far too attached to the husband's trivial moves/reactions.


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## PieOhMy

No contact with the friends yet. I'm waiting for one of them to reach out to him. See what he says.


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## PieOhMy

Hopefully nothing, or just a simple "This friendship isn't going to work. Please don't contact me again. Take care." That's the most I'd probably be okay with.


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## synthetic

PieOhMy said:


> Hopefully nothing, or just a simple "This friendship isn't going to work. Please don't contact me again. Take care." That's the most I'd probably be okay with.


Give him a few days or a week for this. It's not the easiest thing to shed long missed friends, especially one with alleged romantic feelings involved. Don't expect his very first response to be what you want.

I'm not that hopeful to be honest. He resents you and sounds very insecure (the 'ultimatum' conversation proved that). I don't think he has what it takes to let go of his perceived safety (Amy) in this situation. He feels threatened and cornered. He feels justified in seeking safety in Amy's family. He will regret this in the future.

I've been in his shoes. I sought safety among unsafe friends while going through separation/divorce. It was the hardest thing to let them go. Almost as hard as getting divorced. I'm glad I took the hard path.


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## PieOhMy

Should I be okay with him seeing them again? I know I'm not okay with that at all but I guess I'm asking if I should let it go. Or do you mean shedding them without seeing them again?


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## TRy

PieOhMy said:


> Should I be okay with him seeing them again? I know I'm not okay with that at all but I guess I'm asking if I should let it go. Or do you mean shedding them without seeing them again?


 You should not be OK with him seeing them again. Seeing them again means all of them, including your husband, bad mouthing you, with your husband betraying you further by continuing to share with them what you discussed in private with your MC.


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## Starstarfish

If you give in at this point, and decide it's not that big a deal and let them get together, it will ruin any and all credibility you have with standing your ground in the future. He's proven he has no boundaries with these people. There's no way to have a middle ground in that kind of situation.


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## turnera

Hon, you KNOW that by now, this isn't about Amy and John.

It's about your husband's lack of respect and care for you. And his belief that you're a doormat so he can do whatever he wants. 

Period.

IF he were to decide you really mean it, and he wants you in his life more than them, it's possible that you two could make it. Honestly, even if you stayed together, you'll be divorced by the time you're 30 because he'll have found a dozen other ways to put himself first and you'll be old enough and mature enough to really say screw you.


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## PieOhMy

I spoke with my cousin, the attorney. We're going to meet on Monday or Tuesday to review my assets and look at what to do to protect them. He told me how it's probably going to go, and all the divorce terms. I took notes. I'm going to start getting my finances in line. 

Amy texted a picture to my husband of him with her, and then another with all the friends, saying "Remember." He didn't respond yet. But she makes me ****ing sick. 
My husband made it very clear earlier today that he's going to do some side jobs for John. And we had it out, via text. Worst way, I know. It's too long of a convo to put here. But I held firm. I did slip up a little and told him how obvious it was to see what his friends and Amy are doing. He told me he really thinks I'm wrong. And I said I'm not budging on this, and maybe we'll be happier apart. And he said, "I think you're right." And I said "okay."

So it's over. It's coming to an end. I don't think there's anything else to say to him.

Any suggestions?


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## turnera

Nothing except stop responding. Like I said.


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## Blossom Leigh

What are you wanting to do Pie?


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## Roselyn

PieOhMy said:


> Amy texted a picture to my husband of him with her, and then another with all the friends, saying "Remember." He didn't respond yet. But she makes me ****ing sick.
> My husband made it very clear earlier today that he's going to do some side jobs for John. And we had it out, via text. Worst way, I know. It's too long of a convo to put here. But I held firm. I did slip up a little and told him how obvious it was to see what his friends and Amy are doing. He told me he really thinks I'm wrong. And I said I'm not budging on this, and maybe we'll be happier apart. And he said, "I think you're right." And I said "okay."
> 
> So it's over. It's coming to an end. I don't think there's anything else to say to him.


Face reality that your marriage is over. Your husband is going "to do some side jobs for John" and agrees with you that maybe you'll be happier apart. Don't waste your time and your life. Begin divorce proceedings. Save your dignity.


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## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> Amy texted a picture to my husband of him with her, and then another with all the friends, saying "Remember." He didn't respond yet. But she makes me ****ing sick.


This confirms that she doesn't respect your concerns, nor your marriage. And hubby confirmed that he's OK with that.

Feel that anger - use it to stand firm, tall, and know that splitting is what's best for you.


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## PieOhMy

Well. There's nothing I can really do at this point except what I'm doing. Protect my assets, start dividing finances. I already got an appointment with my lawyer. He suggested that I don't let my husband know anything about the consultation until I have everything in order with my assets so he doesn't try to make anything "disappear" in the meantime. I guess I'm just going to spend more time on me. Keep to my guns. Probably just avoid him more. 

He did say that he wants to talk in person tonight when he gets home. Eh...I don't know what there is to talk about. I think it's going to be the same talk as last night. Which was more like him releasing. "Beating his chest." 

I want to discretely get my finances in order, avoid him or just put up with him for now, until I have a game plan with my lawyer. I'm sure he's going to try to change my mind in the meantime or try to provoke me. I'm just going to try to stay strong and keep the talk as minimal as possible. I'm gonna try to make plans with my friends for this weekend. We do have a session next Tuesday, same day I have my appointment with my lawyer. So I guess I'll make my next move once Tuesday comes.


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## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> He did say that he wants to talk in person tonight when he gets home. Eh...I don't know what there is to talk about. I think it's going to be the same talk as last night. Which was more like him releasing. "Beating his chest."


You don't have to talk to him if you prefer not to - no matter what he says. You have that right.


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## PieOhMy

Yeah. I might just let him do the talking. If I like what he says, which I doubt I will, MAYBE I'll respond. It would have to be really good. If I don't, then I'll stay mute. Which I'm sure is the way it will go.


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## PieOhMy

There's nothing else I could say to him but what I've been saying.


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## turnera

If you feel backed into a corner, just say "I'll have to think about that" or else "I need some time alone" and then leave the house and go for a walk or a drive.


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## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> There's nothing else I could say to him but what I've been saying.


You are 100% correct.

"These are my boundaries...

That's what I had to do. I dubbed it my "truth drum."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

He said he will put them to the side right now. That he'd stop pursuing them and communicating with them except to let John know that he needs time and space from them to work on us. He told me he wants to stop hurting me and that he wants to talk more in MC next week. He said he'll tell John tomorrow. 

I said okay. But that I'm holding to my boundaries and even with MC my feelings won't ever change about them. And he said he knows and that he just wants to stop hurting me.

I wasn't expecting this. I'm unsure.

What do you think?


----------



## PieOhMy

Do I take this as him just trying to see if I'll change my mind? Do I take this as he might actually give them up?


----------



## Roselyn

PieOhMy said:


> He said he will put them to the side right now. That he'd stop pursuing them and communicating with them except to let John know that he needs time and space from them to work on us. He told me he wants to stop hurting me and that he wants to talk more in MC next week. He said he'll tell John tomorrow.


He said what he said. He said that he will temporarily put them aside. He intends to stay with them as their friend and a satellite for Amy. He is trying to delay and will gaslight you in MC next week. He will play the victim. He has done it before. It is his pattern.

If he intends not to hurt you, he would commit to cutting off his relationship with Amy and her husband right away. You have read his texts to Amy. He stated that he will not leave them again. Continue as planned to see your lawyer and make a strategy.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> He said he will put them to the side right now. That he'd stop pursuing them and communicating with them except to let John know that he needs time and space from them to work on us. He told me he wants to stop hurting me and that he wants to talk more in MC next week. He said he'll tell John tomorrow.
> 
> I said okay. But that I'm holding to my boundaries and even with MC my feelings won't ever change about them. And he said he knows and that he just wants to stop hurting me.
> 
> I wasn't expecting this. I'm unsure.
> 
> What do you think?


You just keep holding the boundary line. Regardless of what he says or does. Don't make excuses for it and don't apologize for it. It takes time to make the shift. Took my H a solid six months or longer. You may be surprised what changes he makes. If he is unwilling, he will walk.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> He said he will put them to the side *right now*. That he'd stop pursuing them and communicating with them except to let John know that he needs *time and space from them* to work on us. He told me he wants to stop hurting me and that he wants to *talk more* in MC next week. He said he'll tell John tomorrow.


WHAT THE HELL?!!!!!!!!!

Pie, come on! This is POSTPONEMENT.

This is the cheater saying "oh no, she found me out, we have to lay low until I get her trusting me again, I'll contact you WHEN SHE STOPS BEING A B*TCH.

Come on, you're smarter than this. WE all saw what he is really saying.

If he REALLY loved you, he would instead be saying "I'll never contact them again."

But he NEVER SAID THAT, did he?

He never even came CLOSE to saying that. All he said was that FOR NOW he will stay away from them. Until you stop b*tching at him.


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## Roselyn

In your previous post, you mentioned that you married your husband so that he can stay in the country with a green card. Which country are we talking about? If it is the U.S., how long ago was that and is he now a citizen of this country? If he is not yet a citizen, could this be the reason why he doesn't want to get divorced as he can get deported?

He has a reason why he is delaying any action about your marriage. Could this be for financial gain as well? He does not appear to be committed to your marriage. He has a game going on.


----------



## synthetic

turnera said:


> WHAT THE HELL?!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Pie, come on! This is POSTPONEMENT.
> 
> This is the cheater saying "oh no, she found me out, we have to lay low until I get her trusting me again, I'll contact you WHEN SHE STOPS BEING A B*TCH.
> 
> Come on, you're smarter than this. WE all saw what he is really saying.
> 
> If he REALLY loved you, he would instead be saying "I'll never contact them again."
> 
> But he NEVER SAID THAT, did he?
> 
> He never even came CLOSE to saying that. All he said was that FOR NOW he will stay away from them. Until you stop b*tching at him.


Not necessarily. There's a huge element of pride speaking 'words' on his behalf. His actions might be more acceptable than his words (it does happen).

As I said, I've been in his shoes (though I wasn't hurting anyone but myself by remaining close to unsafe people), and admitting to having 'sh1tty friends' was harder than cutting ties with them. Some people have a hard time thinking of others as 'bad'. I'm one of them. Her husband is probably one too.

When he says "I'm going to cut them off for now", he's probably thinking "PieOhMy shouldn't get everything she wants, so I'm going to reserve the right to do my own thing", but subconsciously, he knows his only way to keep PieOhMy interested is to cut John and Amy off. If he loves PieOhMy, his actions will most likely follow what his subconscious tells him.

I remain quite hopeless about this marriage, but that doesn't mean the husband shouldn't be given reasonable time and space to resolve this internal conflict about John and Amy. 

I believe Amy is a piece of sh1t by the way and PieOhMy's husband is dealing with a real negative force from her side. It's not easy to fight back that witch's grip on the situation. 

PieOhMy,

You should continue to protect your assets and be ready to divorce.


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## PieOhMy

My gut is still telling me these people are no good, or at least Amy is no good.

But my gut is also telling me that a lot of this is pride. 

And I don't know if this is really about an attachment to his friends. Or if this is about proving his independence. Either way, it's absolutely unnecessary and ridiculous. 

But I'd like to take it to therapy and see where it goes.

And don't worry! I'm not changing my mind about the friends, I'm still holding to that. I just want to see if there's any hope for my husband.


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## PieOhMy

Synthetic, your comment sounds the most like my husband. He has a lot of pride and has done/said things on behalf of his pride and then came around and did the right thing. 

But idk if that's going to happen this time.


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## zillard

synthetic said:


> Not necessarily...His actions might be more acceptable than his words (it does happen).
> 
> ...
> 
> When he says "I'm going to cut them off for now", he's probably thinking "PieOhMy shouldn't get everything she wants, so I'm going to reserve the right to do my own thing", but subconsciously, he knows his only way to keep PieOhMy interested is to cut John and Amy off. If he loves PieOhMy, his actions will most likely follow what his subconscious tells him.


It is often said here, "Watch what they do, not what they say."

For good reason. Usually that is said to get a poster to really SEE the negative things a spouse is doing, despite their protests of love. 

It *can* also work the other way around though.

In just a couple days he has gone through:
Your feelings don't matter.
Your concerns are crazy.
So, how about dinner with Amy and John?
I won't leave you again, Amy.
You're being manipulative, Pie.
This will not end well for you, Pie.
I will be working with John.
I don't want to hurt you, Pie.
I will stay away from them, for now, Pie.
I don't want to hurt you, Pie.

That IS progress. 

Is that enough, right now? 
I would say no, but that's up to Pie. 

Will the progress continue?
That highly depends on him, but also on Pie. 



turnera said:


> All he said was that FOR NOW he will stay away from them. Until you stop b*tching at him.


If she does loosen up that boundary, it WILL be just "for now". 
If she remains firm, he MIGHT come around. 

That IS a big gamble. Question for Pie to consider:

IF he does completely come around on this one issue, and remain consistent, does that fulfill your needs?

Or is this just the last straw?


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## turnera

Seems to me the simple thing is just to say 'If I ever see that you are in contact with them again, I will be divorcing you.'

I get it about pride. But this is the exact same thing as an affair. You have stated your boundary - that these people HURT you - just like an OW. His refusal to give them up is just like a cheating husband not wanting to give up his AP. His pride shouldn't be a factor if he's choosing YOU. That's the real issue here. The only issue.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> His pride shouldn't be a factor if he's choosing YOU. That's the real issue here. The only issue.


Absolutely true. However, for some, pride delays that choice.


----------



## PieOhMy

I'm ****ing lost. He's turned around and changed his mind on a lot of things in the past to make me happy. But I really don't know if he will with this one. 

I want to use my head, not my heart.

It sucks because a lot of my family thinks that I'm being ridiculous about this whole situation. That I need to trust my husband and just go with it. That his friends shouldn't be an issue, especially since he's not responding to Amy. 

But my gut still tells me that she's no good. And yes, I do think John is a good guy. But Amy and John are a packaged deal, so yes, it's unfortunate, but I know they both got to go. 

This is so frustrating.


----------



## PieOhMy

I checked his messages. This was the conversation between my H and John this morning:

John: Were you able to get those car parts
H: Yes they are coming in today. But John I need a favor, my wife and I are going through a really rough time. And one of the reasons that she is upset with me is because I chose to speak and see you guys. She is still upset at all the things you guys said about her. So what I'm asking for is a little time from you guys so we can figure some things out. I'm not saying that I don't want to see you guys or speak to you guys, I just need some time away from everyone to figure out where our marige is going to go. If the bumper can wait for now I would appreciate, it is coming in today but if you want me to return it I will.
John: Yeah that's fine the bumper can wait your marriage is way more important
John: And if you need anything we're here for you
John: And if cutting us off again will fix your marriage we will understand
H: Thank you, that means a lot to me. And I will not be cutting you guys off again.
John: Hey just talked to my dad he wants to know if you can return the parts he will pay restocking fee
H: No worries. No restocking fee. 

And that was it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Does John know about Amy's picture texts?


----------



## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> It sucks because a lot of my family thinks that I'm being ridiculous about this whole situation. That I need to trust my husband and just go with it. That his friends shouldn't be an issue, especially since he's not responding to Amy.


If your posts about Amy have been truthful, then your family is flat out wrong. 

Knowing that you cut her off before, kicked hubby out recently, are in MC, she still sends hubby pics of him and her together. "remember"

Yes, Pie. YOU remember.


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## PieOhMy

I have no idea what John knows. And yes, my posts are truthful.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> I have no idea what John knows. And yes, my posts are truthful.


How would he react if he knew?


----------



## PieOhMy

I don't know. I've always wondered that too. But saying that my husband once said "I wouldn't be surprised if Amy cheated on John or left him. John would do anything for her, he adores her. She never seemed to reciprocate." But when I brought that up in therapy, my husband justified it by saying, "But I believe that's normal. I think there's always one that loves the other more. We all love differently."


----------



## zillard

The text exchange is another small step forward. 

He isn't just telling you, he's telling John too. (Yes, still "for now" though).

What John said about cutting them off is good. I doubt his wife would agree though (to his face, sure, but not really).


----------



## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> I don't know. I've always wondered that too. But saying that my husband once said "I wouldn't be surprised if Amy cheated on John or left him. John would do anything for her, he adores her. She never seemed to reciprocate." But when I brought that up in therapy, my husband justified it by saying, "But I believe that's normal. I think there's always one that loves the other more. We all love differently."


oh please... he works to keep his blinders on doesn't he.... lets see if your boundaries causes him to choose to take them off.. stay strong.. and remember "truth drum"

no apologies


----------



## PieOhMy

The only thing that really sucks about all this, is that all of Amy's comments can still be played off as "innocent." Like it's nothing concrete that says, "I'm a f*cking b*tch that can't get off your husband's d*ck." It's still kind of circumstantial. I wish she'd say something stupid so there's no doubt. Because my husband is a very happy and social guy. Like one post said, he doesn't like to see the bad in anyone. And that's my husband in a nutshell.


----------



## PieOhMy

Excuse my language, I'm really frustrated at this point.


----------



## PieOhMy

Don't worry. No apologies coming out of this mouth. And sticking to my boundaries, firm.


----------



## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> Because my husband is a very happy and social guy. Like one post said, he doesn't like to see the bad in anyone. And that's my husband in a nutshell.


And that makes him a perfect plan B orbiter.


----------



## PieOhMy

We did a lot of talking again. Still in the same spot we left off last night. The only thing different this time is that he left the conversation saying he wants to be married to me and is willing to make some changes to keep me, but he just doesn't know what changes those are yet. 

Holy ****. This is exhausting. F*cking three hours of talking and discussing possible divorce and that's the conclusion. I'm hoping this is progress, but I'll believe it when I see it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> We did a lot of talking again. Still in the same spot we left off last night. The only thing different this time is that he left the conversation saying he wants to be married to me and is willing to make some changes to keep me, but he just doesn't know what changes those are yet.
> 
> Holy ****. This is exhausting. F*cking three hours of talking and discussing possible divorce and that's the conclusion. I'm hoping this is progress, but I'll believe it when I see it.


Well, he isn't going to know. He is in new territory now. It took my H quite a while t9 know how to handle my new boundaries. Normal and yes, exhausting.


----------



## Starstarfish

The remaining question is one of changes he us willing to make ending things with Amy and John. Because he seems to be talked out both sides of his mouth, from his texts. He's already promised the both of them he's not "giving them up" or "going away again" which is a fundamental contradiction to your desires and boundaries.


----------



## turnera

The problem is that unless you let him know you're reading his texts, HE doesn't know that YOU know that he's promising both you AND them what you both want.


----------



## AliceA

It's a pity your family and friends aren't more supportive of you right now. That said, if everyone thinks that the only reason you are having a problem with your husband is because of some past insults his friends dealt you, then no one will really understand what is actually happening.

What would you think if a friend/family member told you: that her husband was bringing a past love back into his life, a woman who'd tried to break them up and always tried to come between them, who was taking right back up where she left off, and that when she asked him to stop contact with the woman, he refused? 

I'm wondering if maybe the crux of the problem hasn't been addressed yet. How is it no one you know (other than on here) is seeing this contact, and his refusal to honour his commitment to you as a bad thing but you?


----------



## synthetic

PieOhMy said:


> We did a lot of talking again. Still in the same spot we left off last night. The only thing different this time is that he left the conversation saying he wants to be married to me and is willing to make some changes to keep me, but he just doesn't know what changes those are yet.
> 
> Holy ****. This is exhausting. F*cking three hours of talking and discussing possible divorce and that's the conclusion. I'm hoping this is progress, but I'll believe it when I see it.


You really need to stop these 2-3 hour useless discussions for a while.

You have to play a fair game of love and anger here. 

This is what's fair in my mind:

You get angry with your husband ONLY if he crosses your boundary. Your boundary cannot be the 'how' of his termination of contact with Amy and John, but its actual occurrence. At this point, and after reading his text, you should NOT be angry with him.

You express love, sympathy and patience when your husband respects your boundary. You don't ask for more. You don't belittle his action and you don't question his 'possible' motives openly. As far as you are concerned, your husband has cut Amy and John off at this point. He deserves acknowledgement and encouragement by you *right now*.

This is how you 'train' people to respect you. Any other way, and you're headed for a bumpy divorce.

Speaking of divorce, don't ease up on getting yourself ready for it. Your marriage is in much deeper trouble than meets the eye. John and Amy are simply triggers, not the cause of your problems. You two seriously need to remember why you love each other and actually resume 'loving' each other. I don't think you're owning up to your own shortcomings yet. Your husband is also a 'mess' in the accountability department. I hope you've got a decent counselor. So far I haven't been impressed by him/her based on what I've read.


----------



## PieOhMy

You're right. I need to just be okay with what it is right now. And he's been coming to me wanting to talk. So i guess I'll just save it for MC from now on.


----------



## farsidejunky

Don't save it for MC, but don't allow him to drag it out. 

How many times did you have to repeat yourself in that three hour conversation?


----------



## PieOhMy

Way too much.


----------



## farsidejunky

PieOhMy said:


> Way too much.


Exactly. This does two things:

*it waters down your point. State your boundary, then when he starts to approach it again, "I have told you my boundary. I am not okay with repeating myself."

*it is a manipulation tactic. Your husband is not a salesman by trade is he? Sales people use the same tactic to turn a "no" into a "maybe", and a "maybe" into a "yes".


----------



## lucy999

PieOhMy said:


> The only thing that really sucks about all this, is that all of Amy's comments can still be played off as "innocent." Like it's nothing concrete that says, "I'm a f*cking b*tch that can't get off your husband's d*ck." It's still kind of circumstantial. I wish she'd say something stupid so there's no doubt. Because my husband is a very happy and social guy. Like one post said, he doesn't like to see the bad in anyone. And that's my husband in a nutshell.


I completely understand this! I have sort of a parallel story-I used to work with a really horrible woman. If you looked at her actions separately, they weren't too bad in and of themselves. I mean, I couldn't go to my boss and say, "She talks down to me! She slams her office door! She's judgy, immature, moody, and *****y!" Come on. That sounds ridiculous.

But when you lump her overall demeanor and her general b*tchiness all together, you get an evil, mean-spirited mess. It makes life horrible. She was toxic to the nth degree.

It makes you wonder if these sort of people consciously fly under the radar or if it just turns out that way.

This is why you should trust your gut. When there's nothing really super concrete and your gut is screaming NO THIS ISN'T RIGHT, you must believe yourself.

You're doing GREAT. I'm so impressed by you, especially with how young you are.

And remember. Look at his actions, not his words. They contradict each other.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

synthetic said:


> You really need to stop these 2-3 hour useless discussions for a while.
> 
> You have to play a fair game of love and anger here.
> 
> This is what's fair in my mind:
> 
> You get angry with your husband ONLY if he crosses your boundary. Your boundary cannot be the 'how' of his termination of contact with Amy and John, but its actual occurrence. At this point, and after reading his text, you should NOT be angry with him.
> 
> *You express love, sympathy and patience when your husband respects your boundary. You don't ask for more. You don't belittle his action and you don't question his 'possible' motives openly. As far as you are concerned, your husband has cut Amy and John off at this point. He deserves acknowledgement and encouragement by you right now*.
> 
> This is how you 'train' people to respect you. Any other way, and you're headed for a bumpy divorce.
> 
> Speaking of divorce, don't ease up on getting yourself ready for it. Your marriage is in much deeper trouble than meets the eye. John and Amy are simply triggers, not the cause of your problems. You two seriously need to remember why you love each other and actually resume 'loving' each other. I don't think you're owning up to your own shortcomings yet. Your husband is also a 'mess' in the accountability department. I hope you've got a decent counselor. So far I haven't been impressed by him/her based on what I've read.


Extremely accurate. The secret to successful cultivation of respect is knowing when to release. WITHOUT abandoning the boundary. It takes practice.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> Exactly. This does two things:
> 
> *it waters down your point. State your boundary, then when he starts to approach it again, "I have told you my boundary. I am not okay with repeating myself."
> 
> *it is a manipulation tactic. Your husband is not a salesman by trade is he? Sales people use the same tactic to turn a "no" into a "maybe", and a "maybe" into a "yes".


And the other is when to stop talking...


----------



## TRy

PieOhMy said:


> The only thing that really sucks about all this, is that all of Amy's comments can still be played off as "innocent."


When you say that Amy comments can be played off as "innocent" you are wrong. Below is the text conversation that your husband had with Amy, and then the text conversation that your husband had with John. 



PieOhMy said:


> Amy: Well we're happy to have you in our lives again! You can teach baby Liam about cars! We really missed you! And our families!"
> H: I missed you guys too
> Amy: Don't go away again!
> H: I'm not
> Amy: *thumbs up*





PieOhMy said:


> H: Yes they are coming in today. But John I need a favor, my wife and I are going through a really rough time. And one of the reasons that she is upset with me is because I chose to speak and see you guys. She is still upset at all the things you guys said about her. So what I'm asking for is a little time from you guys so we can figure some things out. I'm not saying that I don't want to see you guys or speak to you guys, I just need some time away from everyone to figure out where our marige is going to go. If the bumper can wait for now I would appreciate, it is coming in today but if you want me to return it I will.
> John: Yeah that's fine the bumper can wait your marriage is way more important
> John: And if you need anything we're here for you
> John: And if cutting us off again will fix your marriage we will understand
> H: Thank you, that means a lot to me. And I will not be cutting you guys off again.


In reviewing these conversations, a few things jump out at me:

1) Amy does not care about your husband’s marriage to you, and asked him to not “go away again”, even if it means the end of your marriage. Thus she was asking your husband to value his relationship to her over his relationship to you.

2) John stated that “if cutting us off again will fix your marriage we will understand”, thus he was not asking your husband to value his relationship to him over your husband’s relationship to you.

3) Your husband told Amy that he would “not” be going “away again”, and told John that “I will not be cutting you guys off again.” Thus he told both Amy and John that when push comes to shove he valued his relationship with them over his relationship with you.

Amy asking your husband to pick her over you by asking him to not “go away again”, even if it could end your marriage, was way out of line and far from "innocent". If you stay in a marriage where she is back in his life knowing that your husband values his relationship with her over you, this will be toxic. Add to this the fact that your husband is betraying you by sharing with them what should be private conversations with your MC, and you have a very unhealthy situation. 

Also, notice how the conversations are about how your husband can get back into their lives with you being the outsider, and not what they can do to make you forgive them enough to let the two of you back into their lives? The relationship that they are asking for is the same bad one that they had before, where you are to be preserved as the outsider to the three of them. When you marry someone, that person should never make you feel like the outsider. The fact that they are not focusing the conversations on addressing your concerns, speaks volumes.


----------



## turnera

Blossom Leigh said:


> And the other is when to stop talking...


Pie, remember that first time when I said how amazed I was at your response?

What was so amazing about that response?

It was that you said your piece, WITHOUT ARGUING, and you did not deviate from it. You let him feel his feelings, you let him say his piece, and all you did, when pressed, was repeat your position. 

That is where your strength will be. Not in having 3-hour conversations - which are nothing but two people HAVING TO WIN.

He's welcome to feel what he feels. You're glad he is (as far as you know without snooping) not contacting them. You're thankful he is not. And if he does, you're gone. 

That's really all there is TO all this. These 3-hour tirades are really nothing more than him trying to move you off of your base.

There's another poster here who has an abusive wife, and whenever he tries to take a stand, his wife's response is to wake him up at 1am and 'talk' to him for 2, 3, 5 hours straight. Because she knows that he will be weak at that point, and will capitulate if she berates him long enough in that weak state, and she'll win. 

We keep telling him 'stop talking.' That's it. Any conversation more than 20-30 minutes is abuse. And manipulation. And an attempt to WIN. And useless. We tell him to WALK AWAY from any conversation that lasts more than 30 minutes. To say 'we can talk about this again tomorrow, I'm done' and to then LEAVE the room.

Let's try this next time, ok?


----------



## Chaparral

Tell him not to worry about you. Tell him broken hearts do mend. Tell him you will get over it. Tell him Amy needs him. Maybe John too.


----------



## PieOhMy

Okay. This is what I'm gathering from all your recent posts, let me know if I got this right:

1.) Stand your ground, don't budge on my boundaries (duh lol). 
2.) Amy telling my H to not go away again vs. John telling him he'd understand shows how obvious Amy wants my H to choose them over me. And how none of them asking my H what they can do to make it better or reaching out to me shows that they really only care about his friendship, not mine. Which does not make them friends to our marriage, period.
3.) End any conversations at 30 minutes. Or shorter. Because he's trying to break me down. If anything, tell him my boundaries stay and that I won't be repeating them.
4.) Be happy and show positive reinforcement for his baby steps. 
5.) Acknowledge my own shortcomings, personally. Start realizing the changes I have to make in interacting with my H.
6.) Follow my gut and show my strength. 

?? Is that all accurate?


----------



## PieOhMy

And most of my friends do see it, actually. They can't believe that even after my husband didn't respond to Amy, she sent him photos with "remember" attached to it. But maybe it's because my family is a little old fashioned. Idk.


----------



## synthetic

You may not like this, but you need to assume a more active role in defusing Amy's threat. You can't put it all on your husband's shoulder when there's clearly a history between all of you and it is YOUR boundary that is in jeopardy here. Your husband does not have any boundaries with regards to John and Amy. 

A very short, kind and firm text or phone call to Amy can do you lots of good:

*"Hello dear. Husband and I are working on our relationship and your presence in our life is not helping matters at this time. I wish you well with your life and hope to revisit our friendship in a better future. Please respect my wish and limit initiating contact with my husband until absolutely necessary. I hope you understand and thank you."

*

I know for a 'fact' that your husband will absolutely LOVE it and he will respect you even more. Believe it or not, men do like to feel 'possessed' sometimes.


----------



## PieOhMy

I would do that if she contacted him again. Because now my H has laid out that we need our space. So if she decides to contact him for whatever reason, even if it's to say "The baby was born!" with some pictures, I'd definitely say something. I'd want him to say something at that point too. 

Reasonable? Or stupid?


----------



## synthetic

There is no reasonable or stupid in situations like this. You do what is right to protect your marriage. So does your husband.

I personally know that it took a lot of courage for him to send that text to John. Does he know that you know about the text? 

You need to somehow make it a big deal and give him a lot of encouragement for it. Rewarding him for good actions is key. He'll do more of them.


----------



## TRy

synthetic said:


> Does he know that you know about the text?


 I believe that the OP said earlier that he does not know that she is reading his texts. She has also been advised on this thread that she should not tell him that she is doing this. There are 2 main reasons that she should not tell him. The first is that if he knows he will go underground and she will no longer be able to monitor the situation. The second, is that the OP's husband and Amy will accuse the OP of violating their privacy, and use this as an excuse to turn the table on her because they would say that it shows that she is too controlling. She should never ever tell him that she is reading their texts, and thus avoid the whole explaining to him that except for when you are in the bathroom, their should be no expectation of privacy with your spouse in marriage discussion, since clearly his current actions show that he does not understanding of this. Telling him would only muddy the waters further.


----------



## PieOhMy

He does not know that I can read his texts, so I play stupid. But he did show me the convo between him and John when I asked how it went. So he knows I'm aware of that. And he showed me the texts from Amy and had admitted to deleting the picture texts she sent because he didn't want me to get upset. He admitted this during our first long talk the other night. Fortunately, my H is not a good liar, period. So he was scrambling for words when I asked about what Amy had been saying to him and I called him out on it. 
So he just thinks right now that I was able to call him out because his lying face was on. Not because I can actually read his texts. And fortunately, even if he deletes it off his phone, they will still show up online.


----------



## Starstarfish

What according to him was in these pictures that he needed to delete?


----------



## PieOhMy

He had deleted the pictures she sent after he didn't respond, the ones of him and her and his friends quoted with "remember." When I asked why he deleted them, he said because he knew it would upset me and didn't want me to get emotional. And I told him that he's absolutely right, but now it's 10x worse because he's lying and hiding it. And then I asked him why he isn't responding to her, and he said because he forgot. I know he didn't forget. So that one I don't get.


----------



## turnera

He's trying to make you think she is so unimportant that he can just forget she contacts him.


----------



## synthetic

PieOhMy said:


> He had deleted the pictures she sent after he didn't respond, the ones of him and her and his friends quoted with "remember." When I asked why he deleted them, he said because he knew it would upset me and didn't want me to get emotional. And I told him that he's absolutely right, but now it's 10x worse because he's lying and hiding it. And then I asked him why he isn't responding to her, and he said because he forgot. I know he didn't forget. So that one I don't get.


Your husband is not a "bad" liar. He doesn't really want to lie and deep down he wishes he wouldn't have to delete Amy's text. He's sending you a message here and you're totally ignoring him.

He doesn't want to upset you. He's afraid of it. Fear of you getting upset over Amy's text is not a sign of respect. Rather it's a clear sign of resentment and 'fear'. You are partially responsible for him feeling cornered on this. Let's see:

- Amy sends him a text with an old picture (not your husband's fault)
- Your husband doesn't respond and deletes the text (much better than engaging her and validating her)
- You unjustifiably get mad at your husband and tell him "It's now 10x worse" when in reality, he has done the right thing.

You haven't rewarded him for respectful behavior. You've clearly punished him for bad behavior in the past (proven by his fear of you getting upset).

Spouses should not fear each others' wrath. They should yearn for each others' encouragement and validation.

Did you validate, encourage and thank him for that text he sent John?


----------



## PieOhMy

No, I didn't. So would it be a bad idea to say thank you now, like at the right moment, and just say, "Thank you for speaking with John. And although I don't appreciate you hiding things from me, thank you for giving me the truth about the conversations. You don't know how much that means to me." ...does that sound okay? Should i not bother saying anything? Take out the don't appreciate part?


----------



## synthetic

PieOhMy said:


> No, I didn't. So would it be a bad idea to say thank you now, like at the right moment, and just say, "Thank you for speaking with John. And although I don't appreciate you hiding things from me, thank you for giving me the truth about the conversations. You don't know how much that means to me." ...does that sound okay? Should i not bother saying anything? Take out the don't appreciate part?


Take out the "don't appreciate" part and say the rest willingly. Do it right now (send him a text so he reads it again and again later). These are the type of messages that make people 'think' during separation and divorce.


----------



## Starstarfish

If a male former "friend" was sending a wife cryptic texts and pics that said "Remember" and then they were deleted, I feel like the reaction would be a lot different. Particularly if one used to spoon that male friend and be a total third wheel.


----------



## PieOhMy

Yeah, tell me about it. And I sent him the text.


----------



## PieOhMy

H responded back saying: 

Ok why are you telling me this now?


----------



## turnera

"I was just thinking about you, and I realized you're listening to my needs and trying to meet me in the middle, and I appreciate it, and I wanted to thank you for it."


----------



## PieOhMy

Eh, I already responded back saying, "I just wanted you to know"


----------



## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> Eh, I already responded back saying, "I just wanted you to know"


That works


----------



## Blossom Leigh

".... was just thinking over things and it is important to me that you know that I appreciate your efforts."


----------



## PieOhMy

Eh, it's been a while now. So I don't want it to sound phony. If anything, if he brings it up when he gets home, ill say that.


----------



## Tron

Or just give him a hug and a kiss.


----------



## PieOhMy

That's a given. I always give him a kiss before he leaves and when he comes home.


----------



## TRy

synthetic said:


> You unjustifiably get mad at your husband and tell him "It's now 10x worse" when in reality, he has done the right thing.


 I usually agree with most of what you post, and liked your idea of thanking the OP's husband for sending the email to John. That being said, you saying that the OP was "unjustifiably" mad for the OP's husband deleting the Amy email with the photo, and saying that he did "the right thing" in handling this email from Amy is just plain wrong. You need full transparency in such matters. Showing the OP only emails that will not make her mad, and deleting emails that will make her mad, defeats the whole point of transparency, and is in fact not real transparency.


----------



## turnera

TRy said:


> I usually agree with most of what you post, and liked your idea of thanking the OP's husband for sending the email to John. That being said, you saying that the OP was "unjustifiably" mad for the OP's husband deleting the Amy email with the photo, and saying that he did "the right thing" in handling this email from Amy is just plain wrong. You need full transparency in such matters. Showing the OP only emails that will not make her mad, and deleting emails that will make her mad, defeats the whole point of transparency, and is in fact not real transparency.


I agree.

I don't know what your deal with OP is, but she is JUSTIFIED in being upset about this. And she has NOT acted like a horrible biotch about this. She has stood her ground, and done it MORE THAN ONCE since he has repeatedly refused to respect her wants and needs.

Yes, she should keep his feelings in mind. But he has PROVEN that he will not put her needs ahead of his own. She she has a responsibility to stand up for her needs, since he won't.


----------



## PieOhMy

When I checked my H's texts, it showed he got a text message from Amy's brother say "hey I really need a big help" ...I guess he needed something. According to the texts, my H never responded back. I'm kind of surprised he didn't. Like didn't give Amy's brother a reason. Amy and her brother no longer live in the same house, so maybe he doesn't know about the new space my H asked for.


----------



## Starstarfish

For how long he wasn't talking to these people, that's a big assumption to just randomly text and ask for a big favor.


----------



## TRy

Starstarfish said:


> For how long he wasn't talking to these people, that's a big assumption to just randomly text and ask for a big favor.


 Good point. This couple and their family have been out of the OP and the OP's husband's lives for 4 years. Now all of a sudden they have their family ordering bumpers and asking favors of the OP's husband trying to get the OP's husband back into all of their lives. When you get married, you often do it in front of a lot of friends and family in order to create social pressure that supports the marriage relationship. In this case, the other couple is trying to create social pressure to support the OP husband's relationship with the couple over the the wife. This other couple is just bad juju.


----------



## synthetic

TRy said:


> I usually agree with most of what you post, and liked your idea of thanking the OP's husband for sending the email to John. That being said, you saying that the OP was "unjustifiably" mad for the OP's husband deleting the Amy email with the photo, and saying that he did "the right thing" in handling this email from Amy is just plain wrong. You need full transparency in such matters. Showing the OP only emails that will not make her mad, and deleting emails that will make her mad, defeats the whole point of transparency, and is in fact not real transparency.


I can't say I disagree with you, but given the context, and given the 'goal' which is "saving the marriage", I don't think it's reasonable to expect perfect behavior from the husband when there's so much built-up resentment and bad history regarding this issue. Things like this never get fixed overnight. In fact, the idea of establishing sudden boundaries carries a big risk if the marriage is to be preserved.

I read the OP's posts and realized that she hasn't tried the 'train by rewarding' approach in her marriage at all. That's a much less costly option than separation and divorce at this moment. Given her willingness to try, and my personal assumption that her husband is not a complete idiot I encouraged her to try this approach. I still maintain that they should both see divorce as a very viable option. 

I have a feeling there's a sense of curiosity on both ends. Both sides are wondering if they can do 'better' in the attraction department. The OP clearly stated in one of her earlier posts that she can indeed "do better". Her husband is most likely of the same mindset. Although everyone can most likely do better than their current spouse, this mentality is simply terrible for a marriage. 

Given their ages, I'm not too optimistic about their marriage surviving, but the path that takes them to divorce or 'happily ever after' needs to consist of logical and loving gestures instead of "my way or the highway" approach. 

My very first reply to this thread contained the phrase "Your husband doesn't love you enough". I should change that to "Neither of you love each other enough". Though, I must admit, the OP shows a higher level of talent and maturity in romance than the character she paints of her husband.


----------



## synthetic

John, Amy and their extended family need to f*** off to oblivion. 

PieOhMy,

What are you willing to do to make that happen?


----------



## PieOhMy

Synthetic has it pretty close. I had attempted to use the train by rewarding technique before, something that my own therapist had me trying to do before. I either was caught up in my emotions and forgot to use it, or it didn't seem to render any good results. It wasn't very consistent with it. 

The I can do better factor didn't really come to my mind until recent events. I'm not perfect and synthetic is right, I've made my own mistakes in the past with my marriage in trying to control a lot of the things my husband did. Once I started seeing an IC, that got A LOT better. I actually think it had a lot to do with my mom's illness and death. I was so scared of something bad happening or someone getting hurt, I would try and control every situation. Anyways, both my husband and I agree that I am at a much healthier state of mind and that most, not all lol, but most of my controlling aspects are gone. 

I feel like I can do better but I want my husband, I want my husband to become that better. But idk if he ever will. For almost two years now I've been just taking his bull, and I'm really exhausted by it. I've been asking for MC for a year. I finally feel like my old, happy and outgoing self again, but my husband is still hell bent on resenting me for the past. I had resented him for a long time too, but I decided that I'd rather love him and make this marriage work than do that. I made that decision a long time ago. But now I feel like it's his turn to do the same. That he needs to give up the past, the resentment, let it all go, and just move forward and work on our marriage.


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## PieOhMy

I'm willing to let this marriage go. Because yes, I want my husband to let go of his friends. But that's only the start. I want him to stop putting me down, I want him to stop being handsy, I want him to stop hating me and the world, and get over himself. Letting go of his friends is a no brainer I feel, it shouldn't have ever come into the picture and if he wants to start showing any consideration or respect, he can start with that. But even afterwards, this MC definitely has to continue. 

What do you think I should do about them? I don't really see what other options i have.


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## PieOhMy

Besides what I'm doing right now and seeing if my husband will let them go on his own, with some time.


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## turnera

Most of this stuff will get helped with the MC. Even if you don't stay together, you'll both learn and improve from it.


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## farsidejunky

turnera said:


> Most of this stuff will get helped with the MC. Even if you don't stay together, you'll both learn and improve from it.


A good MC. Which seems to be even more scarce in Pie's area than most.


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## TRy

PieOhMy said:


> I want him to stop being handsy.


 When you say "handsy", what do you mean by this? Does he hit you or grip you too hard, does he touch other women too much, or do you mean something else?


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## zillard

TRy said:


> When you say "handsy", what do you mean by this? Does he hit you or grip you too hard, does he touch other women too much, or do you mean something else?


Groping her too much, I assume.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic

> But now I feel like it's his turn to do the same.


I take this as a sign that you know what your husband resents you for (at least some of it). 



> he needs to give up the past, the resentment, let it all go, and just move forward


Why do you think "he needs to" do that? What's in it for him?

First of all, depending on what he needs to let go of, there needs to be certain actions taken before resentments subside. 

If my spouse said something hurtful 10 years ago, there would be no reason for me to stop resenting her until she openly acknowledges the hurt she caused and apologizes for it. Without acknowledgement and remorse on her side, the resentment and anger may diminish in intensity over time, but all it takes for them to come back is a simple trigger.

You and your husband both seem to be full of these little resentments that have built up over time.

Since you're the one that registered on this forum and is seeking opinions, I will ask you this question, which is a question your husband would need to answer as well if there was a way for us to talk to him:

What have you done to acknowledge the hurt you've caused in the past? Have you sincerely apologized for it? 

Here's what every spouse should do every single year of the marriage in my opinion:

Write your spouse a heartfelt letter acknowledging your 50% of hurt and express sincere remorse for it.

I don't think you've written such a letter ever. Lead by example and do it. If your marriage ends in divorce, you will have a clear conscious and feel 'free' of all guilt. I hope your husband learns from you and does the same. That would be ideal.


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## PieOhMy

Sometimes when he gets angry he grabs me or purposely "bump" into me.


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## PieOhMy

Actually, I have done that. I wrote a letter almost a year ago. Several, actually. And I've said sorry, so sincerely and I really meant it, so many times.


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## PieOhMy

Do you think I should write another one?


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## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> Sometimes when he gets angry he grabs me or purposely "bump" into me.


That's what you mean by handsy?

How many times a week does he get angry?

How many times a week does he criticize you?

How many times a week does he grab you?


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## synthetic

PieOhMy said:


> Sometimes when he gets angry he grabs me or purposely "bump" into me.


That's on him. He knows he's wrong and feels guilty about it. If you bring this up in MC, he will have nothing to defend it. 

I think it's time both of you turn inwards and focus on your own respective faults. 

It's not hard to point out the opposite party's faults. It's the faults in 'self' that are always hard to acknowledge and iron out.

I hope your counselor is honest and smart enough to not waste your time and money with the other approach.


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## synthetic

PieOhMy said:


> Actually, I have done that. I wrote a letter almost a year ago. Several, actually. And I've said sorry, so sincerely and I really meant it, so many times.


Excellent. Excellent.


PieOhMy said:


> Do you think I should write another one?


No, but it wouldn't hurt to have a new one ready. It helps you more than it helps him (I'm sure you know that already)

I'm more and more getting convinced that your husband is several years behind you in the 'maturity' department.

I don't know if you're willing to tolerate this or not (that's a boundary you should think about), but it's simply not feasible to expect him to change his level of maturity over a short period of time. Chances are he will remain this way well into his late 30s and 40s. Some women like that, some don't. Overly mature men tend to be too boring, while less mature ones tend to cause a lot of unnecessary grief.


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## PieOhMy

He gets handsy maybe like once a month. Angry, about once or twice a week. Criticizes me whenever he gets angry or in a bad mood.


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## AliceA

I don't really know all the tactics to 'train' someone through rewards and praise. It all just feels like BS to me. Every single problem in marriages come down to one thing, imo, HONESTY. This is all just becoming rehearsed and unnecessarily complicated.

What would I do if DH deleted a picture a woman I didn't want in our lives had sent him, and later admitted to it? Tell him what I would've preferred he do, "It feels like you were trying to hide it, and you say that it's because you are trying not to upset me, but if she does it again, can you show me the text/pic/whatever so I can tell you what my opinion on it is first?"

Yes/No? Well, you just hope they agree. If they don't, that's follows into more conversation about why, and that is when you get down to the nitty-gritty.

He says, "I want her in my life", you "ok, but I have to be friends with her first" - was that honesty? Nope, now look where you've ended up.

I think an honest reaction would have been, "I don't want her in our lives, I hate her f*cking guts and I hate that you've even asked me to go there".

He gets "handsy"? "Don't ever touch me in anger, get the hell out of the house and don't come back until you can keep your hands to yourself" - that's what you're feeling right? I know that's what I'd be feeling. So say it.


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## turnera

What do you do when he criticizes you?


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## jld

breeze said:


> I don't really know all the tactics to 'train' someone through rewards and praise. It all just feels like BS to me. Every single problem in marriages come down to one thing, imo, HONESTY. This is all just becoming rehearsed and unnecessarily complicated.


:iagree:


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## PieOhMy

I don't respond and then ignore him. Tell him to stop, tell him it's unnecessary. Walk away. Sometimes I know he does it because he wants to get a rise out of me. So I just walk away. And that's when he sometimes gets handsy. When I walk away or just ignore him. And why I say ignore him, like I act like he's not even there.


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## PieOhMy

I am very honest with him. I told him in and out of therapy that I had no interest in being friends with these people. That I don't like Amy and that I'm over them and the whole situation. It's not like I sit here grilling on what they did to us 4 years ago, or even what they're doing now. I just don't like them, I know they're bad news, and I don't want them in my life. And I told my husband all of this.


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## PieOhMy

And I never wanted them in my life. He didn't really give me a choice so I tried just going along with it and talking to them. But when my H and I got into that fight and he went over to their house to vent about it, that's when I was like, game over. I'm done with these people and I'm done with my H teaching me like ****.


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## PieOhMy

Treating*


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## turnera

So he is physically abusive ONCE A MONTH?!


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## synthetic

I don't understand what "handsy" means. If he hits you or you both hit each other, then we got a problem. It needs to stop.

You said he "holds" you. What does that mean? As in holding you to look you in the face to say something? It is a form of abuse, but if you're saying all sorts of awful crap to each other during fights in an evasive manner, then yes, physical abuse is the very natural next step from that. 

Anyway, you know what physical abuse is and hopefully you know what emotional abuse is. You're smart enough to know if this is a marriage you want. If you want it, then own your share of the good and bad, then give him a period of 6 months to a year to do the same. If you're happy with the progress at 6 months or a year, then stay. If not, file for divorce.


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## PieOhMy

I don't know if I can last six months. And I know this sounds silly, but when I had brought up divorce with him in one of the conversations, I had looked up an article that asks you questions to see if you're REALLY ready for a divorce. Because I've obviously never done this before. And we read through all the questions together. This was the article: 

http://www.yourtango.com/experts/do...eady-divorce-8-questions-you-need-ask/page/2/

This was how we answered the questions:

1. Do you still have feelings for your spouse?
H: "Yes," and started crying.
Me: "Of course I do."
2. Were you ever really married?
H: He asked what that meant. I read him the explanation. He started tearing up and said, "I don't know, I guess not."
Me: "Yes. All I ever wanted to do was be a team."
3. Are you truly ready for divorce or are you just threatening?
H: "Sometimes I really mean it, sometimes I feel like I'm done. But other times I don't mean it."
Me: "I would feel at peace with it because I know I've really given all I can to this relationship. I have nothing left to offer."
4. Is it a sincere decision based on personal awareness or emotionally reactive?
H: "I don't know." I read him the explanation of the question, and he still said, "I don't know."
Me: "I've been pretty serious about this and MC for about a year now. I'm exhausted. Yes, I've come to terms that I may never make you happy and that's okay, maybe you'll be better off alone or with someone else, but I'm happy with myself, I'm okay with how I turned out." He started crying.
5. What is your reason for wanting a divorce?
H: When I read him the explanation he said, "I don't know what that means, agenda?" And I asked him if he had any alternative motives. He said, "no."
6. Have you resolved your internal conflict over the divorce?
H: He said he wasn't really sure what the question meant. He never answered it.
Me: I told him the same. I wasn't really sure what that meant.

Questions 7 and 8 he didn't answer. He started crying. I never answered them either. Something else he said really bothered me. This was the conversation.

Me: What would you want me to change to make you happier?
H: I just want you to be okay with everything.
Me: What do you mean?
H: I just want you to be okay with my friends.
Me: Okay, I told you how I felt about that. What else?
H: I don't know what else. I can't really think of anything right now.
Me: So that's it?
H: I mean, I would want you to stop hovering over me always making me feel like whatever I'm doing is wrong.
(That one I didn't really get because I always try to support his ideas. But I think he's referring to things with his friends again. I could be wrong. I have to think about it.)
Me: Okay...is that it?
H: Yeah.
Me: Yes, where I stand on your friends is a boundary I'm not willing to break. But it's not just that either, there's several things I would want you to change, that would just be the start. You put me down, you get handsy with me, you are SO defensive and you just don't seem to have much respect for me. I'm not basing this marriage or divorce on your friends.

He didn't say anything after that. But that was where the conversation ended. All he said after that was, "There's some things I'm willing to change. I just don't know what, yet." 
That was Thursday night. We haven't talked about anything serious since then. We've retained some since of normalcy and went out to eat Friday night, just us. Hung out with our "couple" friends last night, did some swimming. And will be going to see a movie today with them as well. That's where we are right now.


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## turnera

Did you ever read His Needs Her Needs? In it, you'll learn that men are pretty predictable (as are women). Psychologically, men usually have 3 top Emotional Needs - sex of course, then admiration, then recreational companionship.

The admiration, I think, comes from a male wanting to make his father proud, and from having his mother set up all these rules to run his life (and keep him safe, lol). So when he marries, he needs to feel he turned out ok. 

The problem is, he grew up learning what made his PARENTS happy and proud, but now he's in a NEW relationship, and he has to put new thought into what makes THIS person happy and proud of him. I really think most men never realize this and then start feeling bad, a failure, when it doesn't just happen naturally. And they get all kinds of feelings, like why can't she just like me for me, why does she have to change me, why should I have to give up anything?

And the longer it goes, the more he's convinced he will NEVER live up to her 'crazy' expectations, the more dissatisfied HE becomes, the less attracted he is to this person who keeps making him unhappy, the less he feels like meeting HER Emotional Needs, the less time they spend together in bonding time/activities, and the more they spread apart.

Meanwhile, she's pretty much going through the same stuff, just for different reasons. Women typically are willing to put up with a lot more before getting upset; I suspect it has something to do with our history and DNA. But they do fall out of love, given enough time and enough Love Busters.

IMO, the real question here is, does he really love you, or is it too late? If he really loves you, you (and a good MC) can SHOW him how to have what he wants - except for Amy/John - and still be admired. If he can learn that, you two can be back at the 'good' place in your marriage. If he can't/won't, then there's nothing to save.

Well, aside from the 'handsy' question, which you haven't yet answered. Please describe exactly what you're talking about.


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## turnera

synthetic said:


> I don't understand what "handsy" means. If he hits you or you both hit each other, then we got a problem. It needs to stop.
> 
> You said he "holds" you. What does that mean? As in holding you to look you in the face to say something? It is a form of abuse, but if you're saying all sorts of awful crap to each other during fights in an evasive manner, then yes, physical abuse is the very natural next step from that.
> 
> Anyway, you know what physical abuse is and hopefully you know what emotional abuse is. You're smart enough to know if this is a marriage you want. If you want it, then own your share of the good and bad, then give him a period of 6 months to a year to do the same. If you're happy with the progress at 6 months or a year, then stay. If not, file for divorce.


I expected this from you, given your opinion of OP, but I still have to ask. What makes you assume she's 'causing' him to 'hold' her? That it's basically her fault?


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## Blossom Leigh

I'm very concerned about the abusiveness OP. That must be addressed before an ongoing marriage can be considered. I would stop all considerations until that piece right there was dealt with head on. I would require an abuse education class for both of you and I would require be become practiced in managing his impulses to get physical and intimidate/control you. I would put a reasonable timeframe on it. Its what I had to do. I gave him obe minth to seek professional help before separation. We separated. After he started professional help but was still struggling so hard I gave him til the end of 2014 to get it figured out. He got it figured out. But he was told that if he didn't we were ending this relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic

turnera said:


> I expected this from you, given your opinion of OP, but I still have to ask. What makes you assume she's 'causing' him to 'hold' her? That it's basically her fault?


Where did I say she's causing him to hold her? 

And what does "your opinion of the OP" mean? Are you mixing threads up?


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## turnera

synthetic said:


> Where did I say she's causing him to hold her?





> if you're saying all sorts of awful crap to each other during fights in an evasive manner, then yes, physical abuse is the very natural next step from that.


So because (or IF) she yells back at him, well, what does she expect? Yelling women get abused.



synthetic said:


> And what does "your opinion of the OP" mean? Are you mixing threads up?


You have consistently told her that she is just as much to blame for their problems as he is. I would agree...to an extent. We are all always partially to blame. But you have consistently told her that his actions are basically a direct result of her mismanagement of the marriage and him. So it looks to me like you have an agenda. That is all.


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## Blossom Leigh

I didn't get that T, I may have to go back and reread. On first pass, its not what I heard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

Okay. I used to yell back. I don't yell back anymore. It didn't get anywhere except make matters far worse. So, two years ago, it was both of us at each other's throats. Yelling, calling each other names, all of that. But after I started working on me, things have gotten significantly better, but haven't disappeared. Now, it's him yelling and calling me names or putting me down, and me just ignoring him or only giving him one word answers like "okay" or stuff like "I'm not going to talk to you when you're like this" or I simply leave the room or go for a drive. Of course, if he's really really mad, he'll get even angrier that he can't control me or get a rise out of me and try to keep me from leaving or follow me around and harass me until I just break down crying or tell him to f*ck off. And it's when I walk away that he feels the need to grab me to keep me from leaving or he just shoves throw me to walk away on his own.


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## PieOhMy

And to be honest, there's plenty of things I'm willing to compromise or do his way to make him happier. Just not the John and Amy thing. There's a lot of things that I'm willing to do more than compromise on. If that's what I have to do to keep him. JUST NOT JOHN AND AMY. Lol.


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## PieOhMy

Handsy: He grabs my wrist, or sometimes my face, when he's really angry and I'm ignoring him or walking away. Sometimes when he's walking away from an argument, since I'm not acknowledging his tantrum, when he's leaving the room, he will bump right into me really hard on purpose. And then continue to walk away. And the other thing he likes to do is almost like trap me. He won't let me leave the room, he'll literally block me from leaving with his body (I'm only 5', he's almost 6') and I don't want to shove or push my way through because I don't want to get "physical" so I'll have to retreat and do my best at ignoring his harassment until he calms down.


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## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> He won't let me leave the room, he'll literally block me from leaving with his body





> Physical Abuse: hitting, smacking, kicking, biting, burning, pushing, grabbing, restraining from leaving a room and/or house, threats and/or using abuse with a weapon, strangulation or grabbing the neck.


https://www.thefamilytree.org/en/domestic-violence-services/156



> Someone who grabs your face intends to control and intimidate. The behavior does not belong in soccer any more than grabbing another player’s face mask or helmet belongs in hockey and football. Guess what? Grabbing someone’s face does not belong at home, either.
> If it happens to you, it is domestic violence.


http://verbalabusejournals.com/2015/03/grabbing-face-domestic-violence/


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## Blossom Leigh

Yep, you've got bigger problems than just John and Amy. You are in an abusive relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

I have brought it up in MC already. And the MC said there's absolutely no reason for him to touch me like that -that it's unacceptable and that we have to figure out why he gets to that. And I think he was on to something when we were talking about my H's parents, but we trailed off to another conversation.


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## turnera

The point is, if he EVER does it again, leave the house immediately and go to a friend's house, a hotel, or the police station. Give him a consequence for this, ok? It's the only way it will stop.


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## Blossom Leigh

That needs to be the issue front and center, moreso that John and Amy. They are merely an extension of his existing abusive behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AliceA

Blossom Leigh said:


> I'm very concerned about the abusiveness OP. That must be addressed before an ongoing marriage can be considered. I would stop all considerations until that piece right there was dealt with head on. I would require an abuse education class for both of you and I would require be become practiced in managing his impulses to get physical and intimidate/control you. I would put a reasonable timeframe on it. Its what I had to do. I gave him one month to seek professional help before separation. We separated. After he started professional help but was still struggling so hard I gave him til the end of 2014 to get it figured out. He got it figured out. But he was told that if he didn't we were ending this relationship.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe your MC could suggest something for you both in your area, or at least have the resources to find out for you. If he can't stop the abuse, is there any point in figuring out the rest of it?


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## Blossom Leigh

breeze said:


> Maybe your MC could suggest something for you both in your area, or at least have the resources to find out for you. If he can't stop the abuse, is there any point in figuring out the rest of it?


Your YWCA will have resources. And heads up, your H is going to balk at this idea of addressing this in a focused way. When the MC mentioned it was not ok for him to do that how did he respond in the session with the MC and then to you later alone?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

In MC, when this was brought up, my H started crying, saying he knows he has to stop, that he doesn't know why he does it. That he doesn't want to do it anymore. Honestly, he's a real hot mess. Whenever he is faced with anything, like the abuse, the "I" attitude instead of the "we," that he's not very happy in general, his parents, etc. Like he just starts crying and saying "I don't know, I don't know why."

As for the abuse. I know. And I have walked away or went to a friend's house. I don't know what else to do except maybe tell my dad, or call the cops. Instead of calling and having them come to the house, could I go to the cops the time of and maybe just put it on file. 

Can I put it on file now? The last time he did it was about three weeks ago.

Or do you think that's a bad move?


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## PieOhMy

As for the John and Amy thing, I want to make sure it is very clear that I don't expect any contact between him and any of them, even if they message saying "we had the baby!" And that if they message him, because I know they'll never message me, that he clearly states in a mature fashion that he asked for no communication and space from all three of them and that by contacting him that he's not respecting our boundaries or this marriage.


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## PieOhMy

I want to bring that up in MC too, I just don't know how without sounding like a controlling wife? Is that controlling? I thought that would be a given but i know he isn't good at making clear, firm statements except to me.


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## PieOhMy

I am just so fed up with this entirely. I feel like this thing with his friends shouldn't have ever even come into play. It's ridiculous. 

I just want to text him and be like, "I love you so much. This is so stupid. Let your friends go, it's not worth our marriage. You can show your strength in so many different ways. And if you really love me, you'll see it's not worth seeing me hurt. I would never put you through this. We got bigger sh*t to fry. Seriously."


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## zillard

Imo there's a fine line between boundaries and control. Stating what you are and are not OK with is fine. That's you. 

Telling someone what they "should" or shouldn't do is more tricky. Those are their choices, up to them, and they have the right to make them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> In MC, when this was brought up, my H started crying, saying he knows he has to stop, that he doesn't know why he does it. That he doesn't want to do it anymore. Honestly, he's a real hot mess. Whenever he is faced with anything, like the abuse, the "I" attitude instead of the "we," that he's not very happy in general, his parents, etc. Like he just starts crying and saying "I don't know, I don't know why."
> 
> As for the abuse. I know. And I have walked away or went to a friend's house. I don't know what else to do except maybe tell my dad, or call the cops. Instead of calling and having them come to the house, could I go to the cops the time of and maybe just put it on file.
> 
> Can I put it on file now? The last time he did it was about three weeks ago.
> 
> Or do you think that's a bad move?



He needs to become aware of when he feels the urge to "come after" you. If he lays a hand on you or is blocking you, call the cops. You ONLY have four hours to report it in most states. Get familiar with your state laws. I told my H that the next time he ever lays a hand on me the cops would be called and charges pressed without hesitation. He hasn't touched me or blocked me since. Just prior to telling him that I had begun to verbally let him know what was and was not ok. In one incident he was sitting really close to me just staring at the side of my head and I finally inside myself said "I am so sick of this." And made the decision right then and there to speak up from here on out, so I turned around to him and said very firmly "It is *not* ok for you to be staring me down like that and you are sitting too close to me, you need to MOVE out of my space."


He walked outside and that is one of the last times he has intimidated me like that. That was early last year. I ultimately had to kick him out before he got the help he needed to learn to consistently be safe in our home. I didn't let him back until he was MUCH better and when he came back it was with a caveat that he was to continue to work hard to get it right or he would be right back out the door.


I also had my head buried deep in many of the books in my recovery link in my signature. Books like Boundaries by Townsend, Unsafe People, You Don't Have To Take It Anymore, etc.


Also, this video...


http://www.ted.com/talks/leslie_morgan_steiner_why_domestic_violence_victims_don_t_leave


It's good that he is sad over his behavior, BUT he must go further and actually do the work before I would advise staying with him.


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## turnera

That's why this has to be about YOU. YOUR boundaries, YOUR consequences that you enact if he tramples your boundary. That way, you aren't telling him what to do, you're not controlling him. You're just explaining what YOU need (or don't need) in YOUR life. If he agrees and wants you to be happy more than he wants himself to be happy (what we call love), he will honor your boundary. If he is in a place where he cares more about his OWN happiness than yours, he may trample (ignore) your boundary. That's his choice. But at that point, in a healthy relationship (or in a healthy person), you will then enact your consequence, which will probably affect him.

For instance, your boundary of not having your face grabbed. Your consequence for him doing that would typically start small and then escalate if he continues to do it.

I usually give this example to people being verbally abused (men AND women). Tell the person to stop. If they persist, tell them you'll leave the room if they persist. If they do, leave the room. If, when you come back, they do it again, leave the house; go for a walk, whatever. If, when you come back, they do it again (like 'having' to win an argument, for example), you calmly pick up your keys, get in the car, and drive to a coffee shop or library or something for a few hours. If he/she still won't stop, you pack an overnight bag and go stay somewhere for the night. If, when you come back the next day, they STILL haven't figured out you aren't going to tolerate it, you make plans to stay somewhere for a week. Then a month. Then a legal separation or divorce. You are taking small steps to show them what you'll tolerate, nothing big in their face, but you're showing that YOU will enforce your right to be respected.

Of course, if physical harassment is being used, be smart and just leave if you have to.


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## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> That's why this has to be about YOU. YOUR boundaries, YOUR consequences that you enact if he tramples your boundary. That way, you aren't telling him what to do, you're not controlling him. You're just explaining what YOU need (or don't need) in YOUR life. If he agrees and wants you to be happy more than he wants himself to be happy (what we call love), he will honor your boundary. If he is in a place where he cares more about his OWN happiness than yours, he may trample (ignore) your boundary. That's his choice. But at that point, in a healthy relationship (or in a healthy person), you will then enact your consequence, which will probably affect him.
> 
> For instance, your boundary of not having your face grabbed. Your consequence for him doing that would typically start small and then escalate if he continues to do it.
> 
> I usually give this example to people being verbally abused (men AND women). Tell the person to stop. If they persist, tell them you'll leave the room if they persist. If they do, leave the room. If, when you come back, they do it again, leave the house; go for a walk, whatever. If, when you come back, they do it again (like 'having' to win an argument, for example), you calmly pick up your keys, get in the car, and drive to a coffee shop or library or something for a few hours. If he/she still won't stop, you pack an overnight bag and go stay somewhere for the night. If, when you come back the next day, they STILL haven't figured out you aren't going to tolerate it, you make plans to stay somewhere for a week. Then a month. Then a legal separation or divorce. You are taking small steps to show them what you'll tolerate, nothing big in their face, but you're showing that YOU will enforce your right to be respected.
> 
> Of course, if physical harassment is being used, be smart and just leave if you have to.



I like this T. My situation took an in your face approach. But, I know part of my issue is that I was so far gone and done with horrible behavior I backlashed hard. Makes me wonder how things would have progressed had I done some of these things sooner.


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## zillard

Good post, T. 

It does work, though sometimes not how you'd like. Sometimes they'll escalate. 

If nothing else though, it will show you if it can be worked through with them or not. 

For example, you leave the room and they follow. You leave the house and they threaten to lock you out. You lock yourself in a room and they kick in the door.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Well, like I said, if they escalate to worse behavior, GET OUT.

He doesn't sound like a typical abuser, just using learned behaviors out of emotion.

Doesn't mean he shouldn't be held accountable. And of course, you should hold yourself accountable to higher standards, as well.


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## zillard

I agree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

Well our next counseling session is tomorrow. If you have any good pointers or things I should bring up, let me know! I'm definitely going to be telling the therapist that H and I put his friends on hold so we can focus on us and our marriage and that my H stated that he won't be communicating with them in the meantime and made his friends aware of this boundary. And so I'm hoping that they will respect it and that I will just have to trust that my H will respect it too.

I've already brought up the abuse, perhaps he can give us some insight on ways to handle our roles in it better and maybe get to why my H feels he needs to do it and how to fix it. I hope he does.

I hope I word things well.


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## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> Well our next counseling session is tomorrow. If you have any good pointers or things I should bring up, let me know! I'm definitely going to be telling the therapist that H and I put his friends on hold so we can focus on us and our marriage and that my H stated that he won't be communicating with them in the meantime and made his friends aware of this boundary. And so I'm hoping that they will respect it and that I will just have to trust that my H will respect it too.
> 
> I've already brought up the abuse, perhaps he can give us some insight on ways to handle our roles in it better and maybe get to why my H feels he needs to do it and how to fix it. I hope he does.
> 
> I hope I word things well.



I would take this opportunity to shift this session to more focus as the abuse as the main problem and the friend boundary as falling under that general umbrella and address it at that level and ask for more intensive focus on confronting that issue with active work being done to educate your H so that he can begin to actively make better choices. 


If I were in your shoes tomorrow and I felt ready to address this I would say....


"After study and research I have done I have come to the belief that our larger issue is the current of abuse and feel it prudent to shift gears to address it directly and the other issue will fall into place on its own due to the nature of work required in learning to no longer abuse."


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## turnera

I too would focus on the abuse. He has SAID he won't contact them, so let him own that for now. And you continue to monitor. And if he contacts them, at your next session, I'd go ahead and explain that you've seen his emails/texts and know he's been withholding the truth. But until then, focus on the respect issue. 

And personally, the mere fact that he feels capable of grabbing your face or preventing you from leaving a room would be enough for me to say 'either he goes to personal anger management/abuse therapy, or I'm done.'


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## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> I too would focus on the abuse. He has SAID he won't contact them, so let him own that for now. And you continue to monitor. And if he contacts them, at your next session, I'd go ahead and explain that you've seen his emails/texts and know he's been withholding the truth. But until then, focus on the respect issue.
> 
> And personally, the mere fact that he feels capable of grabbing your face or preventing you from leaving a room would be enough for me to say *'either he goes to personal anger management/abuse therapy, or I'm done*.'



Exactly.


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## PieOhMy

Side note: I think I need to work on my sense of urgency, too. Like I want things fixed immediately but unfortunately, not everyone works that way, and sometimes the situation needs that time for everyone to work things out. At least that's what my IC said to me. But I agree with her. My dad said that's great for business and management, but not quite for your personal life lol.


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## zillard

Nothing wrong with giving it time. That highly depends on your tolerance level though. Wherever that is for is you is also fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

And I like your comments. I'm definitely going to lead with the physical and emotional abuse. And lack of respect. I'm going to find a way to put it in my own words, but I definitely agree.


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## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> And I like your comments. I'm definitely going to lead with the physical and emotional abuse. And lack of respect. I'm going to find a way to put it in my own words, but I definitely agree.


And patience is very needed for cultivating great relationships, but not at the risk of emotional and personal safety. Discernment and balance are called for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

You all have such great advice, I really wish I was as mature or more up to speed with all of this. Thank you so much!


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## zillard

Blossom Leigh said:


> And patience is very needed for cultivating great relationships, but not at the risk of emotional and personal safety. Discernment and balance are called for.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That balance can be very hard to find. Don't beat yourself up if you fvck up, but do acknowledge it and use it to progress.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

"Since last week's session, my H and I decided to cut off all contact with John, Amy and her brother in order to focus on us and to see if we're able to work things out. My H informed his friends of this. So as of now, I can only hope that they respect our boundaries and do not reach out to us. And I will be trusting that my husband will do the same. I'm hoping this will give us the opportunity to focus on both of our concerns. However, I know my largest concern is the physical and emotional abuse that I've been experiencing from my H and I'd like to address these concerns directly. I am not neglecting the other issues but hope that they will fall into place on their own due to the nature of work required in learning to be respectful and no longer be abusive."

How does that sound? Getting there? Lol.


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## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> "Since last week's session, my H and I decided to cut off all contact with John, Amy and her brother in order to focus on us and to see if we're able to work things out. My H informed his friends of this. So as of now, I can only hope that they respect our boundaries and do not reach out to us. And I will be trusting that my husband will do the same. I'm hoping this will give us the opportunity to focus on both of our concerns. However, I know my largest concern is the physical and emotional abuse that I've been experiencing from my H and I'd like to address these concerns directly. I am not neglecting the other issues but hope that they will fall into place on their own due to the nature of work required in learning to be respectful and no longer be abusive."
> 
> How does that sound? Getting there? Lol.


Be ready for your H to react to that as if you just grew an alien head. He will gaslight the hell out of you. Just calmly beat your truth drum. Do not let him rattle you. Stay the course. He is free to leave if he can't hack it, but going forward "there's gonna be peace in this house." "Our home is to be loving, respectful, fun, peaceful and free of destructive behaviors." He can choose to get on that train with you or get left behind. Pie, you are the conductor of this train until your H is practiced enough in his new behaviors to relieve you of that burden/duty. Do not handover the locomotive to him until he is well practiced. What I mean by that is, hold your vision, do not internalize any gaslighting, minimization, projecting, etc, since your desire for a peaceful loving home is reasonable. Allow yourself to nuture that vision. He also doesn't set the pace, you do since you are being victimized by his behavior. Only you can say when you've had enough. I would encourage you to require professional anger management therapy for him with a deadline to start and one to finish depending on severity. And if he really goes off the deep end, call the cops and press charges without hesitation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic

At the risk of getting accused of having an agenda, I suggest you listen to what Turnera is saying.


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## PieOhMy

I was saying that as if I were responding to him asking, "how have things gone since our last session? Have you been able to talk about things outside of therapy?"


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## PieOhMy

He usually asks that. He usually asks how we are feeling. Etc.


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## PieOhMy

You think I should word it differently or take parts out?


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## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> You think I should word it differently or take parts out?




No, I think its good. My response to you is to just to solidify in your mind to no longer accept that kind of treatment and create the new paradigm in your home. Don't apologize for it. Its right and reasonable. But get that vision rock solid in your head by studying what it looks like with good resources like Boundaries, You Don't Have to Take it Anymore. Given the fact that he purposely rams your body with his when walking by I'm surprised he hasn't hit you already. Nip it in the bud before he does.


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## synthetic

You think too much of your words prior to saying them. You're too insecure about speaking your mind, mostly because, well, you haven't made up your mind!

It's understandable. We're all like that. 

Just want to let you know that, life shouldn't be that hard. Modern life has made us extremely wary of every decision we make in life. Everything is supposed to be perfect. We are supposed to be 'good' at everything.

Well, life doesn't work that way. 

Be yourself. Say whatever comes to your mind, and don't fear the consequences of 'being you'. Life is too short, and there absolutely doesn't exist a 'judgment day'.


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## turnera

It's way too stilted and fake; I can't imagine anyone speaking like that. 

IIWY, I would write out a list of things that he has done to me. Just a list. 

"The John & Amy thing has been resolved for now; he's agreed to stay away from them and I believe him. I want to talk about this today: 

(you reading list) He has prevented me from leaving a room X times in the last 6 months. He has grabbed my arms to stop me from leaving X times. He has grabbed my FACE X times. He has raised his voice X times. He has done one or more of these things in front of our child X times.

I understand that he's frustrated or scared or himself unhappy, and that's what causes him to do it. But I'm starting to get scared and I don't want to be scared in my own marriage. And I don't want it to escalate and it seems to be escalating.

I want to know what I'm doing that contributes to him feeling the need to do this. I'm ready to change whatever that is, cos I don't want to be the source of HIS unhappiness. 

But I can't continue in a marriage where THIS stuff (wave paper) is going on. So whatever it takes, we need to address it and make it go away."


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## Blossom Leigh

Self doubt can also be an indicator of someone who has endured long term emotional abuse.


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## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> *It's way too stilted and fake; I can't imagine anyone speaking like that.
> *
> IIWY, I would write out a list of things that he has done to me. Just a list.
> 
> "The John & Amy thing has been resolved for now; he's agreed to stay away from them and I believe him. I want to talk about this today:
> 
> (you reading list) He has prevented me from leaving a room X times in the last 6 months. He has grabbed my arms to stop me from leaving X times. He has grabbed my FACE X times. He has raised his voice X times. He has done one or more of these things in front of our child X times.
> 
> I understand that he's frustrated or scared or himself unhappy, and that's what causes him to do it. But I'm starting to get scared and I don't want to be scared in my own marriage. And I don't want it to escalate and it seems to be escalating.
> 
> I want to know what I'm doing that contributes to him feeling the need to do this. I'm ready to change whatever that is, cos I don't want to be the source of HIS unhappiness.
> 
> But I can't continue in a marriage where THIS stuff (wave paper) is going on. So whatever it takes, we need to address it and make it go away."



T, she almost took my words verbatim. 


do you believe that about me?


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## PieOhMy

I do know what I want to say. I'm just scared of saying it too aggressively because he gets defensive and angry with everything I say or ask. That's what I meant with him being manipulative. I'm scared of even questioning him sometimes because I don't know how he's going to react. I can't ask how his parents are because he thinks I'm trying to manipulate how he feels about them. I couldn't even ask where his friend moved from because he thought I was trying to catch him in a lie. I've stopped bringing a lot of things up because of this.


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## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> I do know what I want to say. I'm just scared of saying it too aggressively because *he gets defensive and angry with everything I say or ask.* That's what I meant with him being manipulative.* I'm scared of even questioning him sometimes because I don't know how he's going to react*. I can't ask how his parents are because he thinks I'm trying to manipulate how he feels about them. I couldn't even ask where his friend moved from because he thought I was trying to catch him in a lie.* I've stopped bringing a lot of things up because of this*.



This was when I knew things had to change or I had to get out. When you lose your voice because the other person is chronically angry, then it MUST be addressed. My H's anger was chronic, big and non responsive. In other words, he got huge, loud, skirted the edge of aggression, it was very frequent, AND when I tried everything I knew to try to get him to stop, he was non responsive and gaslit me. The ONLY time it was peaceful in our house during that season was when I was silent and that is not ok. It is not reasonable to be in a relationship where reasonable feedback is not considered and respected. You ARE trying to find your own words here to move forward in addressing his behavior. I think you are doing the best you can for now. I used the language from the books I read to move us forward. I didn't have it at the time either and that was only 18 months ago. My line in the sand was when our son really started getting scared.


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## lucy999

synthetic said:


> You think too much of your words prior to saying them. You're too insecure about speaking your mind, mostly because, well, you haven't made up your mind!
> 
> It's understandable. We're all like that.
> 
> Just want to let you know that, life shouldn't be that hard. Modern life has made us extremely wary of every decision we make in life. Everything is supposed to be perfect. We are supposed to be 'good' at everything.
> 
> Well, life doesn't work that way.
> 
> Be yourself. Say whatever comes to your mind, and don't fear the consequences of 'being you'. Life is too short, and there absolutely doesn't exist a 'judgment day'.


I can't 'like' this enough! I was thinking about posting almost the exact same thing today.

I couldn't agree more with this.


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## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> I do know what I want to say. I'm just scared of saying it too aggressively because he gets defensive and angry with everything I say or ask. That's what I meant with him being manipulative. I'm scared of even questioning him sometimes because I don't know how he's going to react. I can't ask how his parents are because he thinks I'm trying to manipulate how he feels about them. I couldn't even ask where his friend moved from because he thought I was trying to catch him in a lie. I've stopped bringing a lot of things up because of this.


Therapy is the perfect time and place for that reaction.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

This is what I really want to say:

His friends are on hold as of now. He laid out the boundaries, and I can only hope that ALL parties will be respectful. And I mean, leaving us alone until we've reached out to you. If they don't, I will just have to trust that my husband will stand firm by our boundary until we're ready. And this gives us the chance to focus on the big stuff, what's really important. And that's his lack of respect towards me. He's physically and emotionally abusive, and I'm done with it. If he touches me one more time, I'm getting the police involved. I want him to love me, love my mind and love my body. I know I'm not perfect, and there's plenty of other things I'm willing to more than compromise on, but this is NOT one of them, the boundaries I have shared will stay. It's not an ultimatum or control tactic, it's how I feel. And through this marriage, I just want to maintain an honest and healthy line of communication. No hiding, no lying, no hurting and absolute respect for one another.


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## lucy999

I think he's going to explode and be pissy no matter how you phrase _anything_ that comes up in therapy, especially the abuse.

If it were me, I'd speak from my heart and lay it all out there. Sure, your words should be respectful, but I think you need to be 100% frank and not cushion the blow. These events can't be downplayed. They're serious. He and your therapist need to see this for what it is: very ugly and damaging.


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## Blossom Leigh

lucy999 said:


> I think he's going to explode and be pissy no matter how you phrase _anything_ that comes up in therapy, especially the abuse.
> 
> If it were me, I'd speak from my heart and lay it all out there. Sure, your words should be respectful, but I think you need to be 100% frank and not cushion the blow. These events can't be downplayed. They're serious. He and your therapist need to see this for what it is: very ugly and damaging.



VERY important point. 


Don't sugar coat the abuse, and don't overstate it. What you are aiming for here is "accurate."


Use professionally written definitions if you have to to make your case. Then beat that drum, truthfully and accurately, with dignity and respect.


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## PieOhMy

Thanks so much everyone! Our session is soon. It's only an hour long. But gotta work with what you got. I'll let you know how it goes later.


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## Blossom Leigh

Remember to breathe...

You are the conductor

Choose your speed... you be the judge on how fast you want this fixed. Turnera's staged boundaries is excellent advice. I had to do mine nuclear style. As long as one way or another the abuse is removed. Best wishes for your session.


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## turnera

Uh oh, it's been an awfully long time...


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## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> Uh oh, it's been an awfully long time...


I know 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

Hey. Sorry, after the session we had dinner and I fell asleep early. It went okay. I actually didn't get to say what I had planned to say at all because we still hadn't gone over my history, so I figured I'd get that over with first. And then we got carried away on other topics, like my mom's illness, her death, my parents relationship, what kind of people they are/were, etc. But now that he's asked me about all of that, at least it's out of the way. In the next session, I'll definitely be bringing that up. 

The therapist asked what we like to do together, what friends we see. Of course my H made a point that he feels like most of our friends are MY friends. I'm so annoyed, I sometimes feel like slapping my H in the face and being like, "Would you like me to set up a play date for you?" 

The therapist tried to explain to my H that sometimes my acts aren't actually controlling, like when I gave him ultimatums in the past, he said that I was not doing that out of a controlling nature, but more as a reflex to self protect. And then of course my H said, "Yeah, but the side effect of that is controlling," and the therapist said that "it may seem that way but it sounds like she's trying to tell you how uncomfortable she is with something." My H was like, "I guess." Ugh.

We talked about what we liked about each other. The therapist asked what I would want to tell my H or that I feel like he needs to know. I said to both of them, that I feel like my H needs to know that I do think of him as a man and want him to know that there's way of showing me his leadership and independence without hurting me. And then the therapist asked if I admire his strength and I said, "Yes, I do. But I feel like that vision is blurred a lot by the hurtful things he does to me." 

I know there's more but I can't think of it right now.


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## PieOhMy

I told him that I thought we both handled things incorrectly in the past, and that after that, we both went through these stages that we both resented each other for those things. And then my H added that he felt like there was a time we were just going through the motions, kind of just getting by. I agreed. 

I also told the therapist that I felt like I got this thing where I want to fix things quick. And he asked why I feel like I do, and I said it's usually because I don't want to put up with the b*llsh*t and drama. That it's a headache. And he said it sounds like you get a lot of uncomfortable anxiety when you do and I agreed. 

Um...I'm just going to add on as I remember lol.


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## PieOhMy

I stated that I feel like I'm compromising well but he doesn't feel like it's a compromise because it's MY way, not his. And I said he doesn't realize how much I'm actually compromising. 

My H stated that he feels like I always have to get something out of everything. His example was of our friends. That when he started talking to his friends I had to reach out to my friend Alex. And I then said that I realized that was a mistake and stopped talking to Alex just as quickly as I started talking to him. Because I felt like it wasn't worth it and it was too much on my plate at the time and that I felt like that was the only way I'd know if he really could handle a two way street. And then my H said that he was okay with me talking to Alex. And I said I don't think he actually ever was and he was more than his claimed "hesitant" about it. He originally couldn't stop yelling "Oh, have fun ****ing Alex!" Or "He just wants to **** you!" My H didn't say much after that. 

I feel like what we really went into this session was about my history and my family and my life before my H. And what my H and I saw in each other when we got together and how we got together.

We kind of touched base with all this other stuff as we talked. So I think next session is going to be the opportune moment for me to say what I wanted to say.


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## Blossom Leigh

Thats perfectly ok. Gives you time to study resources to help you accurately define as much as possible what level of abuse you want addressed. There is another book I want you to consider reading. One that helped me tremendously with the abuse from my Mom. Its called Emotional Blackmail. After what your H said to you regarding Alex, I would definitely read it if I were you.

Was there alcoholism, drug abuse or violence in your family growing up?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

My dad is a functioning alcoholic. But I never really knew or saw that until my mom got sick. She kept him pretty in line/shielded me and he didn't drink as much then, but it came out when she got sick and I learned what it really was then. That was about five years ago.


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## seasalt

Three weeks and 28 pages in response to "am I over thinking it" to get to "post nups, divorce lawyers and finally an emotionally and physically abusive husband.

You've talked about training him with reward. You train animals and teach people.

You've talked about riding your motorcycle but don't talk about doing fun things with him.

He cries when discussing divorce but you don't care to reassure him or address his hurt.

You want him to give up friendships but don't indicate what accommodations you will make for him.

He's already spent a night sleeping in his car and now you're preparing for him to spend sleepless nights behind bars.

In marriage no one is ever totally right or wrong. If your goal is to be the winner it means you're looking for him to be the loser.

From the outside looking in on your marriage your husband is no happier than you are but with that said you have repeated more than once that you love him.

In my opinion, you have taken too much "advice" so how about a suggestion. Keep showing your husband that you love him with kindness in words, gestures and physical touch (I'm not talking about just sex but a caress or passing pat or hug) and give him something positive to respond to besides ultimatums. No matter how you characterize them or words you use to present them that's what they are.

You're not too young or far down the road to separation to not be able to make your marriage successful and satisfying for the both of you if you can find common ground and work together.

Four years have passed since the other couple hurt you with their words and deeds. Don't let your holding on to that hurt be the reason for your unhappiness.

Seasalt

P.S. as in all marriages the boundary that should be acknowledged by both parties and never crossed is infidelity and disrespect.


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## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> My dad is a functioning alcoholic. But I never really knew or saw that until my mom got sick. She kept him pretty in line/shielded me and he didn't drink as much then, but it came out when she got sick and I learned what it really was then. That was about five years ago.


I thought that might be the case given the pattern of behavior I see in you. There is a recovery group called Adult Children of Alcoholics that would benefit you. Its fashioned after the twelve step programs like Alcoholics Anonymous. It is designed to break patterns of codependency, which I see between you and your H. I recommend their big red book for you as well as recovery meetings to help fuel this path you are ready for. It wasn't your fault, but your Mom and Dad's choices surrounding managing your Dad's alcoholism affected you in ways you aren't aware of for now that are actively affecting your marriage. Dig into their material and you will see what I mean. Just know when you first dig into it there may be some denial present. It will pass. You will also find it addresses your Husband's family issues too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

I do show a lot of love to my H. I'm actually usually the only one showing it. I'm always cuddling, I'm always kissing, I say thank you and how I appreciate this or that. I'm actually a very happy and free spirited person. And it took some time to get back to this, but I did and here I am. I'm always joking, playful, attentive to him. Sometimes I feel like I'm spoiling him. Like I'm doing too much. I tell him how smart he is and how good at his job he is. And I honestly feel like I never get any of that in return. He always comes home grumpy and tired and doesn't move far from the couch.

As for his friends, you're right, I am hurt by their past actions. But I was going to give it a shot and try to overlook these things. And then the person I felt broke my trust this time was my H. And then to see what Amy and her brother were saying, I don't feel like they've really changed at all. So I've decided that I don't want them in my life. I never really did. Even before they did what they did four years ago. They seemed like a bunch of moochers and pot heads.


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## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> *I do show a lot of love to my H. I'm actually usually the only one showing it. I'm always cuddling, I'm always kissing, I say thank you and how I appreciate this or that. I'm actually a very happy and free spirited person. And it took some time to get back to this, but I did and here I am. I'm always joking, playful, attentive to him. Sometimes I feel like I'm spoiling him. Like I'm doing too much. I tell him how smart he is and how good at his job he is. And I honestly feel like I never get any of that in return. He always comes home grumpy and tired and doesn't move far from the couch.*
> 
> As for his friends, you're right, I am hurt by their past actions. But I was going to give it a shot and try to overlook these things. And then the person I felt broke my trust this time was my H. And then to see what Amy and her brother were saying, I don't feel like they've really changed at all. So I've decided that I don't want them in my life. I never really did. Even before they did what they did four years ago. They seemed like a bunch of moochers and pot heads.


Very ACOA behavior in the bolded  dig into it and you will see what I mean.

I wouldn't want potheads around me either  The majority that I've been exposed too are a$$holes. Excuse my language, it's just accurate of those that I've seen's behavior.


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## PieOhMy

Seasalt: I know there's things I need to change about myself, that I need to work on. And I am working on those things. And I'm sure I will find more to work on as I grow. I love my husband very much. I want to be happy, I want him to be happy, and I want us to be happy together. But I've come to realize that there's some boundaries I'm no longer willing to break, and that those boundaries may clash with the boundaries of my husband. And only time will tell what we're each willing to compromise on. I may not be willing to break my boundaries but I'm willing to compromise on other things that are important to my husband, and perhaps that will be enough for him. But maybe not. We'll find out.


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## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> Seasalt: I know there's things I need to change about myself, that I need to work on. And I am working on those things. And I'm sure I will find more to work on as I grow. I love my husband very much. I want to be happy, I want him to be happy, and I want us to be happy together. But I've come to realize that there's some boundaries I'm no longer willing to break, and that those boundaries may clash with the boundaries of my husband. And only time will tell what we're each willing to compromise on. I may not be willing to break my boundaries but I'm willing to compromise on other things that are important to my husband, and perhaps that will be enough for him. But maybe not. We'll find out.


You'll get it figured out because you are asking some of the right questions about yourself and him. Accuracy, truth, will go far in cultivating a better environment in your home. Safe, fun, loving.


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## synthetic

PieOhMy,

At the end of the day, your marriage, just like most marriages will be a long-term struggle. That's pretty much what cohabitation with your romance partner is. A struggle. It goes against almost all of your individualistic desires, and only fulfills some of your social ones.

At your age (and even mine (33)), this is a hard pill to swallow. Society keeps bombarding us with advice on NOT giving up our selfish needs and desires, but marriage requires exactly that. That's why there's little reward in marriage for most people with a career and a healthy body these days. Even the addition of children is not a powerful enough reason for many people to give their marriage priority over themselves. 

There is no right or wrong here. You think about what long-term marriage really is, and you decide whether it's for you. I honestly don't have an answer to that question for myself either. I have yet to decide. It's truly a mindf***.


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## turnera

Communication is the key to everything. If you two could get on the same side, you may be able to negotiate and compromise. But if one of the two won't give up their 'side' or their pride or whatever, it can be a lost cause.


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## PieOhMy

Side note: 

I totally forgot to mention this last week. But during one of our talks he told me what happened when he went over to their house that one day. And that when I called his phone, he ignored it. And when I called Amy's phone, he TOLD her to ignore my call as well. 

On the other hand, later that same night, after I texted Amy telling her I apologize for her getting in the middle of this, she said "sorry my phone died, everything ok" and I told her "everything is fine, my apologies" and she said "no problem." And she and I never talked again after that. 

It really hurt when I heard that. I didn't say anything to him about it. But that really hurt.


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## turnera

Something you have to talk about in MC.


----------



## zillard

Well, that was right after you kicked him out. He wasn't obligated to talk if he wasn't ready. 

As for Amy, just reaffirms that the trio is an entity that doesn't involve you. And you can't trust Amy - but you knew that.


----------



## PieOhMy

Yeah, it was the Amy part that hurt.


----------



## zillard

Yeah, after apologizing and coming back into your life (you and hubby's life, singular), she's already lied to you. 

Not a friend of yours and not a friend of the marriage. 

Not acceptable.


----------



## TRy

zillard said:


> As for Amy, just reaffirms that the trio is an entity that doesn't involve you.


 That is the real issue with this other couple. It has the three of them on the inside, with you on the outside as the odd person out.


----------



## PieOhMy

Doesn't feel right. And I don't see how it will ever feel right. Even if I trust my husband, I'll never trust them.


----------



## PieOhMy

Do you think she knows what she's doing? Like is it intentional?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> Do you think she knows what she's doing? Like is it intentional?



Yes


----------



## PieOhMy

I guess I just don't understand why. She as her own husband. I don't think I'll ever understand why people feel the need to act that way.


----------



## turnera

My DD24 made a friend through a friend who openly admitted to DD that she was a mean girl. She literally pits girls against girls, just to see the fights. She's cheated on every man she's been with. She purposely says things to people just to see them squirm.

Maybe Amy is like that.

OTOH, maybe she's just clueless and she just does whatever feels good.


----------



## PieOhMy

That's disgusting.


----------



## Openminded

Just because she has a husband doesn't mean she isn't interested in keeping yours in play. Many people are not nice. They don't do the right thing. She's one. The question is whether you can depend on your husband to keep her out of his life.


----------



## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> That's disgusting.


OMG, you wouldn't believe the pain she's put people through. I remember when DD24 first met her, and TRIED to trust her, and got burned by her...it was horrible.

I was able to help her understand that some people JUST ARE HORRIBLE PEOPLE. And you have to wash your hands of them.


----------



## lucy999

PieOhMy said:


> Do you think she knows what she's doing? Like is it intentional?


Very much so. I'm curious. How did your H react when he learned Amy was pregnant?


----------



## PieOhMy

Um, he was excited for them. BUT, I had known a while back that she was pregnant. I just never felt any reason to share that with my husband. He always avoided places they may be at, and I never really understood why. He said because he didn't want to see them. But I thought it was maybe because he feared the confrontation if he bumped into them, especially if I was with him. So I had looked them up to see if they even lived in the area still so that maybe if they didn't, then my H wouldn't feel like we had to avoid such places. But when I looked them up, I saw that they were pregnant and still very much in the area. So when I told my H that I had already known, he got mad and asked why I was looking up his friends. And I said I just wanted to be able to go to the mall by us rather than an hour away. And that's when he got really mad. And decided to talk to them even though we hadn't talked about it yet. And I asked why he's so mad I looked them up, and he said because they are his friends. And that's when he responded back to John's apology and started talking to them. He asked John for Amy's number the next day to congratulate her and that's how he started talking to her.


----------



## synthetic

So you kind'a triggered this entire thing yourself?! Kidding! (well maybe not!)


Anyway, we're well past John and Amy at this point. They're not that important. Even in their absence you and your husband are tangled up in all sorts of resentments and abuse. 

I honestly don't see why the two of you should continue to live this way or even stay married when you're so young and have no children.

Do you see yourself with your husband in your 50s? Is it a pretty picture? Can you look forward to it?


----------



## PieOhMy

I actually did always see each other together. And I don't picture myself with anyone else. I just always thought we needed to grow up more. So that's what I had been working on. But I feel like he hasn't really gotten very far in that department. I wanted to have kids with him, I just knew we needed more time to mature first and have a stronger relationship. But after these past few months, that image is now blurred.


----------



## PieOhMy

I really thought he just needed to grow out of all this.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> I really thought he just needed to grow out of all this.




Some do, some don't.


Its why timeframes are important. When our home got so dangerous, I put a VERY limited time frame to start therapy and another one for him to demonstrate he was seriously committed to staying the course. The first time frame was one month, which turned into two and the second one, which was through the end of last year, he didn't miss. He knew I was serious when I had put him out once. He knew I wouldn't hesitate to do it again for a final time, never to look back.


----------



## PieOhMy

Well now that we finally shared both our histories and what our parents are like, I definitely want to talk about the abuse. And I also just want to hear a lot of what my husband is feeling and what's going on in his head about it. Because I really don't understand. Why he feels the need to grab me, or why he feels the need to put me down. And if it comes up, why he feels the need to reach out to friends which he knows would also really hurt me.


----------



## PieOhMy

It's always like adding insult to injury. One after another. Or like "adding salt to an open wound." Whatever that saying is. He has to put me down with words, he has to put his hands on me, and he has to bring back one of the biggest things that had hurt me in the past. Like it's all hurtful to me. One thing after another. I don't understand why he wants to do that to me.


----------



## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> It's always like adding insult to injury. One after another. Or like "adding salt to an open wound." Whatever that saying is. He has to put me down with words, he has to put his hands on me, and he has to bring back one of the biggest things that had hurt me in the past. Like it's all hurtful to me. One thing after another. I don't understand why he wants to do that to me.


I doubt he does want to. More likely terrible coping mechanisms that he is somewhat unaware of, or in denial about.


----------



## Tron

zillard said:


> I doubt he does want to. *More likely terrible coping mechanisms that he is somewhat unaware of, or in denial about.*


Yep.


----------



## turnera

One thing I've learned is that the people who do harmful things really do think they're justified. In his mind, it's YOU who is making HIS life miserable, and forcing him to do things he'd rather not do. You MAKE him do it, don't you see?

So when you confront him, at home or in MC, he isn't going to suddenly go 'oh you poor baby, I can't believe I was so bad.'

He's going to drag up every single thing you've ever done to him as justification and in an attempt to make YOU look worse than HIM.

Just be prepared.


----------



## PieOhMy

I got a little emotional tonight and he asked me what was wrong. He actually tried to comfort and hold me. And I told him, "I just can't understand why you do things that hurt me. You know they'll hurt me and yet you still do them. I can't understand why anyone wants to grab or shove his wife. Ever. Or why you feel the need to put me down." And he said, "I don't know. I'm sorry." And he said sorry a few times. And so I told him, "I know you're sorry, and I appreciate it but it's hard to believe when you keep doing it. I just don't understand why." And he said, "The only thing I can think of is resentment." And I told him, "I know...I guess I'm just tired of hearing that excuse and would rather see changes." And then he said, "I love you." And I said I love him too. And we just cuddled after that. It meant a lot to me to hear him say I love you without it being a hello/goodbye "love you" or without me saying it first.


----------



## PieOhMy

I'm trying to focus on the positives. It's just hard to act like everything is okay when I definitely feel like it's not. 

And btw, one of my friends told me that I might have to just let my H see and do whatever with his friends and I'll just choose to not have anything to do with them. And whenever he did, to go do something to better myself and spend more time away from him. That way when he goes to his friends, no one can say I'm trying to stop him. And that when my H sees that I'm doing so much without him and how independent I am, he'll be blown away. And eventually, since Amy is going to be having a baby any day now, they'll probably be so busy that they won't have much time anymore to do anything or see my H. And so they will part on their own.

I didn't really like the idea of this. So I disagreed. I get what she's trying to say. Be the bigger person, show no controlling attitude and become more independent of him, that way he won't feel like I'm controlling him. That way he will be making the decision to see or not see them on his own. Etc.

What do you think of that idea?


----------



## PieOhMy

I know I don't like that idea. I'm just curious to see others comments on that.


----------



## turnera

I actually kind of agree. When you become the 'enforcer' in a marriage, your spouse by default becomes the victim. You will forever more be the mean one. And I GUARANTEE he will throw it in your face every time he gets mad at you (if you stay married that long).

Have you read His Needs Her Needs? I really recommend it for the psychology of how marriages work (and don't work). What your friend is describing is kind of the same thing. If you make YOUR investment into the marriage aMAZing, whatever they may offer him will pale in comparison. And what goes along with that is YOU having an amazing life that doesn't involve him - it makes him respect you more, want you more, and feel the need to compete with all those other great things you have going on in your life. I'm not saying to play games with him. I'm saying to have a fulfilling life that doesn't depend on HIM pleasing you or paying attention to you all the time. I'm pretty sure that if he sees you going out and having a girls' night out every time he sees John and Amy, after a couple times, he'll rather be home with you or else he'll rather find OTHER friends that you'll like too, that you guys can hang out with together.

I'm kicking myself for not thinking of this sooner.


----------



## PieOhMy

That's going to hurt so much. Whether it's John or Amy, or her brother. It's going to hurt every time he's texting and that I know he's texting any of them. It's going to hurt every time he goes to see them, even if he says he's going over to see John, it won't matter because I know Amy will be there and she'll be saying god knows what to my H. And H will probably be falling for it. It won't be worth it to me. I know if he decides to see and talk to them, any of them, it will only hurt me, and will only make me want to push him farther away. And I'd doubt I'd be able to last long in that situation. Maybe a month, two months tops.


----------



## lucy999

PieOhMy said:


> That's going to hurt so much. Whether it's John or Amy, or her brother. It's going to hurt every time he's texting and that I know he's texting any of them. It's going to hurt every time he goes to see them, even if he says he's going over to see John, it won't matter because I know Amy will be there and she'll be saying god knows what to my H. And H will probably be falling for it. It won't be worth it to me. I know if he decides to see and talk to them, any of them, it will only hurt me, and will only make me want to push him farther away. And I'd doubt I'd be able to last long in that situation. Maybe a month, two months tops.


Your friend's suggestion made me sick to my stomach. And I don't mean that in an offensive way. I literally felt my stomach drop. Because I was in your shoes once, only not married. My ex BF had a huge circle of friends. I did, too and those circles intertwined. One of our mutual friends was a woman who previously had a fling with him. At first I was fine with it. We all have histories, right? But when he went away for work, she confessed to me that she still had feelings for him. 

That changed *everything.* I became hyperfocused and well, kind of crazy. It got so bad I was constantly checking up on them at social gatherings if I didn't see one of them in the room with me. It was torture. I had to go to a therapist for a short while to cope with it. It changed me as a person. And not in a good way.

If there wasn't a history of romantic feelings between your H and Amy, this plan might very well work. I'm sorry, but I don't think this is a good idea at all.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> I got a little emotional tonight and he asked me what was wrong. He actually tried to comfort and hold me. And I told him, "I just can't understand why you do things that hurt me. You know they'll hurt me and yet you still do them. I can't understand why anyone wants to grab or shove his wife. Ever. Or why you feel the need to put me down." And he said, "I don't know. I'm sorry." And he said sorry a few times. And so I told him, "I know you're sorry, and I appreciate it but it's hard to believe when you keep doing it. I just don't understand why." And he said, "The only thing I can think of is resentment." And I told him, "I know...I guess I'm just tired of hearing that excuse and would rather see changes." And then he said, "I love you." And I said I love him too. And we just cuddled after that. It meant a lot to me to hear him say I love you without it being a hello/goodbye "love you" or without me saying it first.


This gives me hope for yall because he just defined what is at the core of his behavior. Resentment. 

I have some things I want to share about this when I get to work. Brb.




ok, I'm back. 


I have a working theory about resentments, its a visual. If you have ever watched Deadliest Catch and have noticed, there are times when ice accumulates on the upper parts of the ship. If the crew doesn't work hard to bust up that ice and get it off it will capsize the ship and cause it to sink to the bottom of the ocean. I view resentment just like that ice. When it builds up it will sink the relationship. Each person is responsible for managing their resentments. A HUGE part of that is living with a grateful attitude. This is where I see your H's issue. He is an ingrate and thus resents the hell out of you. Well, that's on him. He has to learn how to maintain a healthy appreciation of you. This was the same issue at the core of my H's issues. He was an ingrate and being a childish brat, but it's one thing for a small child to get physical and throw themselves around, its a WHOLE other issue when its at 6'3" grown man... that's very dangerous. Just like with horses must be trained to be respectful BEFORE they get big... a LOT of mothers are NOT training their sons to be respectful and safe before they get big and its the wives cleaning up that mess. I LOVE my H's mother, she is a doll and such a tender heart, but she puts up with an amazing amount of disrespect and it caused massive issues for my H and I. She sees it now and so does my H. 


Where the hope comes in is this.... if your H makes the next logical leap to realizing he must self manage his resentment and instead cultivate a healthy version of gratitude you will see much of your issues melt away. My H gained that with mentorship through our church. He was told by the men in our church that his treatment of me was completely and utterly wrong. He felt convicted and repented. And truly walked away from that behavior. I am not having to grow unaccustomed to the fight. Interesting journey. 


I'm glad you were vulnerable with him. I'm glad he didn't justify. That means he is closer to making better choices if he can get his perspective right. I hope your counselors and your personal study will encourage him to invest that same kind of effort. It will pay richly for him if he does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TRy

PieOhMy said:


> And btw, one of my friends told me that I might have to just let my H see and do whatever with his friends and I'll just choose to not have anything to do with them. And whenever he did, to go do something to better myself and spend more time away from him. That way when he goes to his friends, no one can say I'm trying to stop him. And that when my H sees that I'm doing so much without him and how independent I am, he'll be blown away. And eventually, since Amy is going to be having a baby any day now, they'll probably be so busy that they won't have much time anymore to do anything or see my H. And so they will part on their own.


 They will not part on their own. The baby may actually bond the 3 of them, with you again on the outside. Also, she will breast feed in front of your husband, to give her one more bonding thing with him, and they will say that you are trying to shame Amy if you object.


----------



## PieOhMy

Well I know she already wants H to "teach baby Liam about cars." And my gut tells me that they purposely used "we're expecting a baby boy any day now and want you to be a part of his life" in their initial apology message from John to my H as almost a way to lure him in. But, again, I may be looking into this too much.


----------



## PieOhMy

I wish he'd get advice from others. I know he did talk about it with a mutual friend. But I don't know what that mutual friend's opinion was. The friend is a good guy but he's also having issues with his own girlfriend right now, so I really don't know what his opinion may have been.


----------



## PieOhMy

And yes, that made me feel better. I'm happy we were able to talk. Doesn't make it any better that his parents are harassing him again right now, they're relentless. It broke my heart to hear them yelling back and forth online. They video chat. It was a quick convo. My husband seemed upset. I asked if he wanted to talk about it, he said no. I asked if there was anything I could do, he said no. I gave him a hug and kiss and said I love you and left it at that. And then made him a nice meal. I feel so bad for him when it comes to his parents.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> And yes, that made me feel better. I'm happy we were able to talk. Doesn't make it any better that his parents are harassing him again right now, they're relentless. It broke my heart to hear them yelling back and forth online. They video chat. It was a quick convo. My husband seemed upset. I asked if he wanted to talk about it, he said no. I asked if there was anything I could do, he said no. I gave him a hug and kiss and said I love you and left it at that. And then made him a nice meal. I feel so bad for him when it comes to his parents.



You couldn't tell what the topic was?


----------



## PieOhMy

It's usually about money and how bad they are doing over there. They live over seas. They usually pressure for money.


----------



## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> That's going to hurt so much. Whether it's John or Amy, or her brother. It's going to hurt every time he's texting and that I know he's texting any of them. It's going to hurt every time he goes to see them, even if he says he's going over to see John, it won't matter because I know Amy will be there and she'll be saying god knows what to my H. And H will probably be falling for it. It won't be worth it to me. I know if he decides to see and talk to them, any of them, it will only hurt me, and will only make me want to push him farther away. And I'd doubt I'd be able to last long in that situation. Maybe a month, two months tops.


The thing is, right now, they are PULLING to him and you are treating him like a child. Yes, you should have boundaries. But in this particular situation, he will NEVER see this as a just decision. He'll see it as you pulling your weight and making an unjust demand. So that resentment, the what-if, is going to grow and fester. And trust me, it WILL come up.

You can't handle them because of your insecurity. Which we all have. It's understandable. And you can go the ''you can never contact them again or you lose me" route. You can make this your hill to die on - the one thing you'll divorce over (although if it were me, the abuse would be my hill to die on). And he'll probably capitulate (that you know of), and you'll have an ok marriage. Except for the fights. And maybe more abuse.

Or you can try to (1) work on your self esteem, which is obviously low because you let him harm you, so that you'll be able to say them or me out of respect for yourself, instead of fear about them talking about you, and (2) continue to work on the marriage with MC, reading HNHN, and making sure what he comes home to is SO much better than what Emotional Needs he'd be getting from John and Amy, that he'll gladly give them up because he wants you to be happy. 

Right now he doesn't care about making you happy, he cares about getting HIMSELF out of as much trouble as possible. Following HNHN will help with that a lot.


----------



## farsidejunky

turnera said:


> The thing is, right now, they are PULLING to him and you are treating him like a child. Yes, you should have boundaries. But in this particular situation, he will NEVER see this as a just decision. He'll see it as you pulling your weight and making an unjust demand. So that resentment, the what-if, is going to grow and fester. And trust me, it WILL come up.
> 
> You can't handle them because of your insecurity. Which we all have. It's understandable. And you can go the ''you can never contact them again or you lose me" route. You can make this your hill to die on - the one thing you'll divorce over (although if it were me, the abuse would be my hill to die on). And he'll probably capitulate (that you know of), and you'll have an ok marriage. Except for the fights. And maybe more abuse.
> 
> Or you can try to (1) work on your self esteem, which is obviously low because you let him harm you, so that you'll be able to say them or me out of respect for yourself, instead of fear about them talking about you, and (2) continue to work on the marriage with MC, reading HNHN, and making sure what he comes home to is SO much better than what Emotional Needs he'd be getting from John and Amy, that he'll gladly give them up because he wants you to be happy.
> 
> Right now he doesn't care about making you happy, he cares about getting HIMSELF out of as much trouble as possible. Following HNHN will help with that a lot.


Great post, T.


----------



## TRy

@PieOhMy: Here is the rub. There will be resentment no matter what you do. Either you will tolerate him seeing them knowing that they are not friends of your marriage and are back biting enemies of you, or he will resent you for not letting them be an important part of his life. The fact that you are right to be resentful of them, has nothing to do with this reality. The fact that they are still not acknowledging your rightful place in his life as his wife, and talk with him about you behind your back, with your husband even violating the privacy of your therapy by sharing with them what goes on in these sessions, is why you are better off not having them in his life. But that does not change the fact that this is a no win situation. Keeping them out our your marriage is just the least bad option.


----------



## PieOhMy

Is it available on Kindle? Lol.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> I actually kind of agree. When you become the 'enforcer' in a marriage, your spouse by default becomes the victim. You will forever more be the mean one. And I GUARANTEE he will throw it in your face every time he gets mad at you (if you stay married that long).
> 
> Have you read His Needs Her Needs? I really recommend it for the psychology of how marriages work (and don't work). What your friend is describing is kind of the same thing. If you make YOUR investment into the marriage aMAZing, whatever they may offer him will pale in comparison. And what goes along with that is YOU having an amazing life that doesn't involve him - it makes him respect you more, want you more, and feel the need to compete with all those other great things you have going on in your life. I'm not saying to play games with him. I'm saying to have a fulfilling life that doesn't depend on HIM pleasing you or paying attention to you all the time. I'm pretty sure that if he sees you going out and having a girls' night out every time he sees John and Amy, after a couple times, he'll rather be home with you or else he'll rather find OTHER friends that you'll like too, that you guys can hang out with together.
> 
> I'm kicking myself for not thinking of this sooner.


It's basically the concept of the 180.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PieOhMy

And now he just told me he wants to send another $300 to his parents. We just sent them $250 a week ago. I asked him if his brother has sent any, he said he doesn't know. I asked him what they need it for, he said to pay for his little brother's school. And then I pointed out that we do have a new bill now with the MC. He said we'll just have to make it work. I didn't bother saying anything else. But then he said:

H: What's wrong?
Me: You know the answer to that. And I don't think we should get into the conversation because you're only going to get mad.
H: I'm already mad. I thought you were trying to "be supportive and understand how I feel." (He said that part in a mocking voice)
Me: I am.

He didn't say anything after that. I tried to make conversation after that about his work, he didn't really respond. So I gave up. When I got home I sent him a screenshot of our Amex bill this month. It's high. He was like, "How is it that high?" I texted back saying, "I'd be more than happy to sit down sometime this weekend and discuss bills and such." He hasn't responded.


----------



## turnera

The gist of what your friend and I are discussing is this: you can't make another person change - the #1 mantra of therapy; trying to make him change is pointless and counterproductive. As well as: you can't make another person want what you want.

So you can say they are out of our lives, but you'll be forever monitoring him - and punishing him if he does contact them. The only hopeful solution is to make him WANT to get rid of them. And that comes along with YOU being what he wants more. Right now, it's incredibly obvious that you are NOT making him happy, that YOU are HIS enemy at the moment, just as John/Amy are YOUR enemy.

I would instead focus on fixing y'all's relationship for now, drop it like you said you are, do NOT make it an issue until it becomes an issue, and yes, read that book. And you can get it everywhere, so I'm sure it's on Kindle.


----------



## turnera

Your H doesn't WANT to send money to his parents. That's obvious. But he also has apparently been dubbed the 'responsible' child, so this is NOT going to go away. He will forever be the one expected to support them, and they will never go to the other kids for it. You can fight about it, you can resent him for caving to them and he can resent you for making him feel bad about caving...to what end? To further destroy your marriage? It's just money. IIWY, I'd just keep track of what you send them, and if by chance there is ever a time to have an accounting with any inheritance or with the other siblings, you can bring it up then. It's not worth shaming your husband about it. If nothing else, open up a dialogue with his siblings about getting them to help, even if it's only 25%. Try to find positive ways to address these things, ok? Otherwise, you are just becoming the BIG NEGATIVE in his life, and he'll either get more abusive or just leave, to stop feeling bad.

I know you feel bad. But so does he. Try to keep that in mind.


----------



## PieOhMy

I don't think I would have such a problem with it if we weren't living in my dads house rent free. We do not pay any of the household bills either.


----------



## turnera

Is your dad from another country with little to no job opportunities (as I assume his folks to be)?


----------



## PieOhMy

No. He's not. He just pays for the cable we watch, he pays for the food we eat, he pays for the roof over our head. My husband can send money to his parents, but it's hard to feel good about it when my dad has already told my husband that he doesn't charge us rent because he wants us to be able to save our money, not take what he's giving us to help with our future and spend it elsewhere. And he actually said that to my husband.


----------



## Openminded

PieOhMy said:


> Well I know she already wants H to "teach baby Liam about cars." And my gut tells me that they purposely used "we're expecting a baby boy any day now and want you to be a part of his life" in their initial apology message from John to my H as almost a way to lure him in. But, again, I may be looking into this too much.


No, that's what's going on. She's enjoys playing games when it comes to your husband.


----------



## PieOhMy

And his parents have had job opportunities, but didn't take them. They told my husband, "Well why would I work or ask for help when I have two sons working in America?"


----------



## Openminded

He'll be sending his parents money as long as they're alive. Is your dad aware that while he's helping y'all, your husband is helping his parents?


----------



## PieOhMy

Yes, and my father hates it. And he's told my H how feels about it. I don't mind sending some money, but not a lot. Not where it interferes with our bills and savings.


----------



## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> And his parents have had job opportunities, but didn't take them. They told my husband, "*Well why would I work or ask for help when I have two sons working in America?*"





PieOhMy said:


> Yes, and my father hates it. And he's told my H how feels about it. I don't mind sending some money, but not a lot. Not where* it interferes with our bills and savings.*


Another area where your H stinks at boundaries. Do his parents know that it interferes? I assume so, if they argue about it. 

Makes perfect sense that H resorts to manipulation, doesn't it.


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## PieOhMy

Yes, I think that's where the struggle is and why they fight. It really breaks my heart. The only reason why I support sending money is because I want my H to at least have that peace at mind, but $500 in one month is not something we can afford.


----------



## zillard

Especially if it's for something like education fees, which are on-going. 

An emergency - sure, help out if you can.


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## PieOhMy

What do you mean it's another area where he resorts to manipulation?


----------



## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> What do you mean it's another area where he resorts to manipulation?


No. The comment from his parents are them manipulating him to get what they want. 

He learned that this behavior works, and uses it on you, in other areas.


----------



## PieOhMy

Oh okay, I get it. Thank you. All things to bring up in MC.


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## PieOhMy

The list is growing and growing lol.


----------



## Openminded

They'll never stop pressuring him for money so the two of you need to agree on how much you can afford to give them each month and stick to it. No exceptions. 

If he comes from a culture where children financially help parents for the rest of their lives, trying to be firm with them about helping probably won't work. They expect it and he'll provide it since he considers it his duty -- regardless of how you or your dad feel. 

It's likely to come down to whether that becomes a deal breaker for you at some point because as long as they're alive it won't go away. 

You've got bigger problems than Amy. Financial disagreements can easily kill a marriage over time.


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## Blossom Leigh

Because your husband is not thrilled about sending money so often, I bet he would be open to the idea of you two settling on a set amount that honors their culture, but allows a building of your future and you guys agree to practice boundaries with them. If you guys can partner on one thing together that practice may overflow to other areas, like friends 


Sometimes it takes agreement on ONE thing for it to begin changing the rest, but it would take both of you saying "we don't have a solution for that right now, so we are leaving it alone until we do, no fighting."


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## TRy

turnera said:


> The only hopeful solution is to make him WANT to get rid of them. And that comes along with YOU being what he wants more.


 I agree that she needs to work harder to be a better spouse, but he is a cake eater. No matter how much she rug sweeps this, and how hard she works to be that person that "he wants", he will never want to get rid of them because he will want both. It also leaves out the fact that the OP has a right to be happy too, and she will not be happy and will end this marriage long term if this other couple get back into their lives. Now is the time before she has children to get this decided, not later. 

One more thing that will bug her is that, like with his parents, when that baby needs something, he will use their community money to pay for it. She should not be asked to endure this other couple. The more he gets close to them again, the more he will have the moral support of them to leave her if she does not look the other way at being the odd person out of their 3 person team.


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## AliceA

So he's mooching off your Dad so he can send the money off to his parents. Your Dad is actually the one sending money to your DH's parents, your DH is just taking the credit for it. Rob Peter to pay Paul. Does that make him a responsible son? Nope, it makes him an arse.


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## Blossom Leigh

breeze said:


> So he's mooching off your Dad so he can send the money off to his parents. Your Dad is actually the one sending money to your DH's parents, your DH is just taking the credit for it. Rob Peter to pay Paul. Does that make him a responsible son? Nope, it makes him an arse.




This is so true. 


He should be working to stand on his own two feet so you don't have to rely on your father and if he wants to support his parents he can make enough to support his own family (you) AND his parents. If he's not, then he is definitely a moocher and stealing your Dad's character as his own.


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## PieOhMy

I think it's something I'm going to bring up in MC. If I bring it up this weekend or outside of MC, I know he's going to get really mad and defensive.


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## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> I think it's something I'm going to bring up in MC. If I bring it up this weekend or outside of MC, I know he's going to get really mad and defensive.



Most MC's advise against bringing intense issues up outside of a session while things are rocky. So that is very wise of you. We went through a period like that. 


Might be a good idea to find a really fun outlet for you guys this weekend. Take some pressure off.


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## PieOhMy

As for the friends thing. I agree with TRy. His friends are moochers. They always were. He always traveled to see them, and they barely ever made the drive (1.5 hours). I know this sounds tough and harsh, but I don't think they were ever like REAL friends. I'm sure he had a connection with them, but I don't think they ever really reciprocated the support and loyalty that he showed them. Before he started resenting me, he used to tell me that he didn't like that they always smoked pot. He wished they would visit him more often. He always paid for them when they said they were broke and yet they had the money to pay for weed. They didn't go out much. He felt like Amy never reciprocated the love that John showed her. He wouldn't be surprised if Amy cheated/left him. Blah, blah, blah. Etc., etc. But of course, now he's trying to rationalize all of that by excusing it because they seem to have grown up now since they just bought a house together and are expecting a baby. My H moved a lot during his high school years, so these were the only friends he really had and kept in touch with. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. But i think that's why he's holding on to them. I think he's reminiscing something that he's making out to be a little more special than it actually ever was, if that makes sense. 

And yes, definitely not bringing up the money thing until MC.


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## PieOhMy

Btw, I have noticed that this post is running really long lol. I don't want you to feel like you have to keep up with it. I really do appreciate all your help! I wish I knew how to handle things better four years ago, maybe I wouldn't be in this position now. I'll keep posting as long as everyone keeps commenting. Maybe even afterwards. I don't know if posts max out or anything. I'm not great with knowing how forums work.


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## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> Btw, I have noticed that this post is running really long lol. I don't want you to feel like you have to keep up with it. I really do appreciate all your help! I wish I knew how to handle things better four years ago, maybe I wouldn't be in this position now. I'll keep posting as long as everyone keeps commenting. Maybe even afterwards. I don't know if posts max out or anything. I'm not great with knowing how forums work.



lol.. There are threads with thousands of posts on them around here. You are not a burden.


And don't kick yourself for wanted to know sooner. I was 39 before I stood up to my Mom  You're doing well. I'm glad you are younger than where I was by the time I started waking up out of the "fog."


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## PieOhMy

So I've actually started reading His Needs, Her Needs. Definitely informative. Definitely able to apply the chapters to my marriage. But the scariest part so far is that the author keeps repeating how affairs start. And he said it actually happens between married spouses a lot. UGH. And that it starts off with just simple intimate conversation about troubles in the marriage. UGH. Not feeling any better about the friends situation right now...Lol.


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## Blossom Leigh

If it hasn't been mentioned yet, another good book is Not Just Friends
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TRy

PieOhMy said:


> He felt like Amy never reciprocated the love that John showed her. He wouldn't be surprised if Amy cheated/left him.


 I bet that Amy enjoys every minute of the ego boost that your husband gives her, as she leads your husband on by showing your husband that she does not really love her husband that much, and gives your husband hope by making your husband think that she might be open to cheating on her husband or leaving him.


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## PieOhMy

I guess the thing I'm holding onto right now is the whole actions speak louder than words. He didn't really respond to Amy's brother, He stopped responding back to Amy, and although he told both Amy and John that he's not cutting them out of his lives, he did put them out of his life for now. So that's the hope I'm holding onto, and the hope that he'll see how much it would hurt me and that maybe by showing him how much I'm willing to try in other areas and am being more independent, he'll want me me or see that his friends aren't worth it.


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## zillard

Blossom Leigh said:


> If it hasn't been mentioned yet, another good book is Not Just Friends
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I second that!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> I guess the thing I'm holding onto right now is the whole actions speak louder than words. He didn't really respond to Amy's brother, He stopped responding back to Amy, and although he told both Amy and John that he's not cutting them out of his lives, he did put them out of his life for now. So that's the hope I'm holding onto, and the hope that he'll see how much it would hurt me and that maybe by showing him how much I'm willing to try in other areas and am being more independent, he'll want me me or see that his friends aren't worth it.


I actually have good hopes for you guys. You're learning a lot (HNHN will make a big difference), he is going to MC with you (that's huge!), he's at least temporarily put John/Amy on hold so he DOES want to please you/doesn't want to lose you. I don't think he's an abusive person; I think he's reverting to something he must have observed early in life out of fear of you leaving him - so him learning how not to revert to these things will be important. And so will YOU learning how not to accept them.

Most importantly, keep remembering that HE also has HIS own feelings about the situation. Whenever I see one partner saying the other one has to do it the way I want, I know it's not gonna work, because the other one may DO what the one partner says, but he won't be ON BOARD. That's like my H telling me that if I want to stay married, I have to stop drinking Diet Pepsi. If I want to stay married enough, I may stop. But I'll spend the rest of my life angry about missing my Diet Pepsi. And it will be HIS fault.

So when you start thinking about what you want to ask for in this marriage, go ahead and protect yourself, defend yourself, respect yourself. But do it with how HE feels in mind. Whatever he's getting from John/Amy, whatever ego stroking (and it probably has a lot to do with him daydreaming about her jumping his bones when John's not around), find a way for him to get a DIFFERENT form of feel-good from YOU.


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## PieOhMy

I've really been trying to do that. I'm going to a monster truck thing, trying to enjoy his hobbies. I haven't asked any questions about when he goes to hang out with his friend (a mutual friend that he met through work). Like these past two weeks I've really been trying to step things up. I hope he notices. Because I'd be more than willing to do this for the rest of our marriage if I could feel some security and respect in return.


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## PieOhMy

He didn't end up sending the money yet to his parents, but I put $300 in our spending account so he could choose to send it to his folks or do whatever else. He knows that we don't touch the money for bills and savings for that. In the bedroom I'm trying different things. For myself, I started actually walking with a girlfriend and I was going to take a boating safety class (I love the water, thought it would be nice to get my boating license, my cousin has a jet ski) but when I told him I was going, he said he'd actually be interested in taking it too. So I asked him if he wanted me to wait for a date that we can both go, and he said he won't stop me from going but he'd like to go together. So I told him I'm going to hold him to it lol. I think the abuse is a learned behavior. I think he got some from me and the physical from his brother, Idk for sure though. I guess I'm trying to figure out if these friends actually mean a lot to him or if this is more about him just reaching outside of the marriage to get something he doesn't feel like he's getting from me. If that makes sense.


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## PieOhMy

And I'm going to download that book once I get through HNHN. Lol. Getting there.


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## zillard

It does make sense. Though infidelity is horrid, be it emotional or physical, and always the cheaters fault, I feel it does often become more likely when the person doesn't feel fulfilled in the relationship. 

That fulfillment can be validation, attention, emotional empathy, physical, and any number of things. And ultimately it's that persons responsibility to communicate those needs and that lack of satisfaction. 

However, if you're lucky enough to notice and be proactive and initiate communication about it, or do something about it, you probably should if you value them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

I feel like saying to him: So what is it that you're not getting from me but you're getting from them? Because that's what I'm willing to work on to make you happy. Not them, but you.


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## PieOhMy

Finished reading HNHN. Going onto Just Friends.


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## PieOhMy

Not Just Friends*. And then probably moving onto Love Busters after that.


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## PieOhMy

I think it's Admiration that I have to work on. And Physical Attractiveness. I'm not big on wearing makeup and after my mom died, I gained weight. I'm not a planet but I definitely got some cellulite going on. Like one of your posts said, Amy is stroking his ego. John isn't, John is keeping it real. And I do feel bad because John seems like a nice guy, just Amy and her brother don't.


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## PieOhMy

Our next session is tomorrow. I'm going to bring up the physical abuse and emotional abuse. If he brings up the friends, I will state my boundaries again and explain that I expect honesty. Is it wrong for me to feel like him communicating with his friends is a betrayal?


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## PieOhMy

And btw, once again, this Not Just Friends book is not making me feel good about my husband's friends.


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## synthetic

PieOhMy,

Whatever happens at the end of this journey, you have shown great talent for learning and have actually learned a lot by conversing with ordinary people whose real-life experience has opened your eyes to an extraordinary world of knowledge. 

I'm almost convinced whatever abuse your husband inflicts on you (or others) is purely 'learned' and not a part of his core personality. This is something I personally had to discover about myself after 3 decades of confusion, shame and crazy moments. I learned to be an abusive person from my father who is a truly disordered (Narcissistic) personality, but since my own personality never really accepted the abusive behavior, I've been living in constant guilt to this very moment.

It never really goes away, but I've learned to acknowledge and try to control it. Your husband most likely has pretty sh1tty parents who simply didn't know better. It's not a good excuse, but hey, what can you do? 

I'm pretty sure your husband suffers from a boatload of small but significant insecurities, sources of guilt and regrettable moments of anger. He's young enough to slowly heal and the fact that he is away from his Family Of Origin is a fantastic thing. Toxic parents often continue to destroy their children until they die. If the price of keeping your husband's crappy parents away and helping your husband feel less guilt is $500/month, gladly pay it. When it comes time to going to counseling and addressing those issues via professional treatment, the cost will probably be much higher.

Simply try to see your husband for who he really is and accept the fact that he's going to stay that way for the most part. If you still feel attracted to him and can work to NOT resent him for the person he is, then consider your marriage a 'good one'.

Your husband needs to do exactly the same thing about you. I hope your MC helps you get to that point.


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## Starstarfish

Is it really fair for OPs father to basically subsudize paying off the in-laws because they are toxic? 

Also, I'm slightly bothered by the idea that "blood money" might help the husband feel less guilty and then what - less prone to be violent? The idea of rationalized abuse because it's learned rather than "core to their being" doesn't make it better.


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## PieOhMy

I'm okay with $150/200 a month. But $500 is way too much for us a month. We don't make THAT much money.


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## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> I'm okay with $150/200 a month. But $500 is way too much for us a month. We don't make THAT much money.




You are doing your work and it will truly pay off for you. I do hope the abuse behaviors are learned and not more hardwired for him. That means he possesses the capacity to change. You are still waiting to see if his willingness to change is in place and that he chooses to keep it in place. You doing your homework ahead of time will help you gauge if his willingness is consistent. If it is you two will be able to cultivate the kind of behavioral environment you want in your home. I am cautiously optimistic that he possesses the capacity. Proud of you for walking forward in your personal strength and health. You are right about the friend... Amy is an attention hound in a destructive way. You will probably always have to maintain a healthy vigilance where she is concerned. Hope your session goes well  And I hope you guys partner together on this money thing.


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## PieOhMy

Well I think most of the behaviors can change. As for his friends, I don't think my feelings or stand on that is ever going to change. Because the way I look at it, I will always be looking over my shoulder with them in our lives. And I do not want to live like that. It took my two years to get over the problem with them four years ago. And now they're back again, and there's another problem, once again. But worst, not only are they making me uncomfortable, but so is my husband this time too. I don't see how it will be worth it. Which is why I have to see if this really is about him wanting them in his life or about him beating his chest.


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## turnera

You should bring up in MC that you read HNHN and NJF, and explain to him in that setting that you see potential for harm to your marriage with John/Amy. And that THAT is why you want them gone. 

If it comes up.

I'd also be bringing up the subject of your parents subsidizing you two and his parents raising the money they expect from you. I DO understand that mentality of people in other countries - to them, just living in America makes you 100 times richer than anyone in their country, so what's a few hundred dollars? But it has to be a mutual agreement, and that's where the trouble is.


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## Blossom Leigh

Then that speaks to his lack of willingness.


A man who treasures his wife doesn't tolerate a woman undermining that regardless of history.


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## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> You should bring up in MC that you read HNHN and NJF, and* explain to him in that setting that you see potential for harm to your marriage with John/Amy. And that THAT is why you want them gone.
> *
> If it comes up.
> 
> I'd also be bringing up the subject of your parents subsidizing you two and his parents raising the money they expect from you. I DO understand that mentality of people in other countries - to them, just living in America makes you 100 times richer than anyone in their country, so what's a few hundred dollars? But it has to be a mutual agreement, and that's where the trouble is.



Love the way you worded that T


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## PieOhMy

In MC today, my H brought up the money thing on his own. First thing out of his mouth. He's actually doing pretty good with opening up in therapy. The therapist did say that it probably wasn't a good idea for me to bring up that I feel like my father is subsidizing for his parents when my H is having issues with his parents, but that he understood where I'm coming from. That we keep giving and giving to my H's parents and yet we never give anything to my father and that it seems unfair. The therapist also got my H to talk about my husband's resentment towards his parents. Which was good too. And then I stated that I understand he wants to send his parents money, I just feel like it should be a set amount, and keep some boundaries. And I told the therapist how we did once have a set amount for each month, but then more "emergencies" came up and we ended up sending a lot more than the set amount. Therapist told my H that my H will never be able to fully support them and that he will have to realize that. That whatever he sends will never be enough and that this will always be something that comes up and so we need to learn how to communicate with each other about it. He told my H that he thinks he's underestimating how much I understand what he's going through. That just because I'm not in his shoes doesn't mean I don't have any empathy. My H argued saying that he really doesn't think I feel for him, especially when I bring up paying my dad some sort of rent. And I told him that it was bad timing to bring it up, but when I look at the thousands of dollars that we've sent his parents at only 26 years old, I think about how we could have saved all that and I see us digging into a potential college fund. We went back and forth. We didn't come to an agreement about either. But I'm hoping it opened the window for us to have a more civil conversation about it soon.


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## turnera

You feel guilt about your parents, he feels guilt about his parents...eventually the two of you need to grow up (no offense) and remove yourselves from your 'obligations' to your parents.

Let's talk again about why his brother isn't helping their parents.


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## PieOhMy

We don't have any obligations to my father. I just feel like my dad is subsidizing for his parents. He doesn't ask for rent but he's told us how he's felt about us sending money. And I totally agree. And yet I feel for my H, that's why I'd rather just have a set amount and actually keep those boundaries. 

And no offense taken. I know I'm not perfect lol.


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## Blossom Leigh

Its great that he is opening up. 


I can tell, you have a sensitive husband who looks for you to nurture his heart and when he doesn't "feel" it he acts butthurt and acts out, thus Amy. 


I would work on making it clear that you do support his heart. 


If he cannot see full support, that is on him to work out.
If he can see it, but operates in butt hurt and resentment for past issues, that too is on him and its time for voiced expectations of expecting him to choose better and boundries after your best amends has been offered.
If he finally feels it and relaxes into it, don't interrupt that with "but" statements.


Y'all are so young, this sounds like a growth spurt for both of y'all. It is just not ok for him to handle his immaturity with manhandling you. EVER. I hope that time has passed.


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## AliceA

Honestly, I think the fairest thing would be to not send any money at all until you are both self-sufficient, but I don't live in a culture where parents stop working as soon as their kids start and hound their kids for money for the rest of their lives.


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## PieOhMy

I don't live in a culture like that either. I'm trying to meet both our needs here, and I think with some more time, he may actually see that I'm trying to compromise.


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## PieOhMy

And I'm really just hoping that he sees how much I'm willing to work on in our marriage, that he won't feel the need to keep acting out or reaching outside the marriage (Amy and John). And instead of seeing me as the enemy, he'll see that I don't want them in our lives because of how hurt I feel when I see him communicating with them and how I just don't want to live like that. 

It's been almost two weeks since they've contacted each other. I was so sick to my stomach when i knew they were talking I had actually lost weight (7 lbs). I'm an emotional eater but when sh*t really hits the fan, I don't eat. I hadn't felt like that since my mom first got sick. Good news is as soon as I saw they stopped contacting each other I got my appetite back. I didn't gain the weight back but I am eating better now!


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## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> We don't have any obligations to my father. I just feel like my dad is subsidizing for his parents. He doesn't ask for rent but he's told us how he's felt about us sending money. And I totally agree. And yet I feel for my H, that's why I'd rather just have a set amount and actually keep those boundaries.
> 
> And no offense taken. I know I'm not perfect lol.


I'm just saying that each of us grows up wanting our parents to admire and respect us for how we turned out. You married a man who you at least subconsciously expected to be able to provide for you and protect you, and you ended up having to go to your parents for help. As enlightened as we try to pretend we are in 2015, that sociological aspect still is alive and kicking. So now your parents are helping the two of you, and at the same time, instead of making good USE of that gift by saving money and getting out of debt (or whatever your financial situation is), you as a couple are instead translating that money/gift into a gift to his _parents_. Your dad IS subsidizing your H's parents.

So at least subconsciously, YOU are aware you're not quite measuring up to your parents' expectations, and that colors how you feel about your H. Even if you're not aware of it.

And don't pretend your H isn't secretly ashamed at having to take the help from your dad.

And then there's the whole other aspect of your H having to life up to HIS parents' expectations instead of taking a stand and saying 'we can't afford what you're asking of us.' So that further colors how you feel about him.

Basically, just a big mess. Hopefully you two are finding a way to increase your income so you're no longer dependent on your folks, be it more schooling or side jobs or something. That should help a lot of the stress.


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## PieOhMy

You're right. Basically, I always wanted a man that would be able to support me whether I was working or not. I always wanted the majority of the money I made to go to savings for our children. And I always wanted the option not to work because I want to be with my kids when they're typing (until they go to kindergarten) and/or go back to school. And I don't know how my husband feels about it. I think he's ashamed, but it's hard for me to see that when he gets mad at me. I wish he'd just come out and say how he felt. I'm hoping he'll get there with therapy. I can only imagine the pressure he feels. But he does like to spend money. He really racked up our Amex bill these past two months. I think i have to make this clear to him. I don't think I really knew exactly how to say what I wanted until just now. With you guys and after talking to my IC yesterday.


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## PieOhMy

Not typing. I meant young** lol


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## PieOhMy

So one of my friends said that she saw on Amy's Facebook (My H and I don't have Facebook) that the baby's due in a week and she thought she'd give me a heads up in case they end up reaching out to my H. I really didn't feel like hearing that.


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## PieOhMy

So I'm reading Love Busters right now. And I'm having trouble figuring out where I stand. Saying that I don't feel comfortable with xyz the same as making a selfish demand because I'm think about how it makes me feel and not how my spouse feels? And then it spoke about how no one should be sacrificing to compromise. And I know if we keep his friends in our lives, I'll be sacrificing. But if we don't keep his friends in our lives, he'll be sacrificing. And so I read on about the negotiation part, and I don't see where we'd actually be able to meet on the friends situation. So when we abandon the idea for now, does that mean we abandon the friends for now? I'm getting confused. I think i need to bring this to my therapist lol.


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## TRy

PieOhMy said:


> then it spoke about how no one should be sacrificing to compromise. And I know if we keep his friends in our lives, I'll be sacrificing. But if we don't keep his friends in our lives, he'll be sacrificing. And so I read on about the negotiation part, and I don't see where we'd actually be able to meet on the friends situation. So when we abandon the idea for now, does that mean we abandon the friends for now?


 Although you should compromise on some things, you do not need to sacrifice basic martial needs to compromise so that you can satisfy your spouse's wants. Your husband only wants to be friends with these people, but you need your husband to be loyal to you. The issue with these friends is that your marriage is not properly recognized by them. They treat him as if he is single, and disrespect and disparage you and your marriage. The truth of the matter is that the basic loyalty that you need from your spouse dictates that he not be friends with such people, no matter how nice that they are to him. He is no longer single. As a married man he needs to do what is right by you as you are part of his team. The texts show that they want your husband to be on their team against you again, and the very fact that he goes along with this is disloyal. Again, you need your husband to be loyal to you over anyone else, he only wants to be their friend; you do not have to comprise a need for a want.

They are not at fault here, your husband is. As your spouse, he is require to put them in their place in defending you and is required to tell them that you come first. Your husband has failed to do so. Let me show you what a loyal spouse would have done when they called to apologize to him for how they treated you in the past. After they apologized to him and told them that they had grown, he should not have accepted their apology on his own and he should not have then expected that you treat the matter as if it was over because they apologized to him. After the apology what a loyal souse would have done is tell them, "Do not apologize just to me, you need to try to make peace with my wife, since it was her and our marriage that you disrespected. The very fact that you called just me and not her, makes me question that you may not still get it, that she is my wife and that we are a team. She is my priory, just like your wife should be your priority. That being said, I hope that you can win her over, as it would be great to be friends again. Do not pressure her. Instead tell her that regardless of if she lets them back into our lives, that now that you have grown, you realize that you owed her an apology. Show her by your actions that you now understand that she is my wife and that I will not let other people disrespect her no matter how much I like these people." This attitude should be second nature to your spouse. That fact that is is not is why I say that it is your husband's fault and not their's.


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## PieOhMy

Wow. I would have loved it if my husband had said that. He's never said something like that for me or our marriage. Ever. Through all the drama with his friends and family. Never said anything like that.


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## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> So I'm reading Love Busters right now. And I'm having trouble figuring out where I stand. Saying that I don't feel comfortable with xyz the same as making a selfish demand because I'm think about how it makes me feel and not how my spouse feels? And then it spoke about how no one should be sacrificing to compromise. And I know if we keep his friends in our lives, I'll be sacrificing. But if we don't keep his friends in our lives, he'll be sacrificing. And so I read on about the negotiation part, and I don't see where we'd actually be able to meet on the friends situation. So when we abandon the idea for now, does that mean we abandon the friends for now? I'm getting confused. I think i need to bring this to my therapist lol.


In that particular situation, my first instinct is to say that AS LONG AS he never ever contacts them without you present and never RESPONDS to them without you present, you'd be willing to SEE THEM - as two couples - once in a while. But ONLY with all four of you present. And even then, this should happen ONLY after he requests that they apologize to YOU, in person, for what they've said about you.

To me, that seems like a fair compromise. Maybe you four have dinner once or twice a year so they remain 'friends' but they will never become y'all's close friends again due to her behavior.

And if he isn't willing to accept a fair compromise like that which addresses YOUR concerns, since you're the one being hurt by her, then he has a further agenda that is NOT putting your interests first.

And if he isn't willing to DO these things for you, then I think you need to seriously reconsider why you're staying married to him.


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## PieOhMy

But wouldn't that be considered controlling behavior? At least i know that's how he'll see it.


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## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> But wouldn't that be considered controlling behavior? At least i know that's how he'll see it.


Say the neighbor guy grabs your butt and you don't like it, and you tell your husband you don't want him invited to any more bbq's at your place. Is that controlling behavior if your husband doesn't have a problem with the butt grabbing?

No.

Amy's grabbing your marriage's butt.


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## zillard

When you got married you became a team. 

So now, your friends are his friends and his friends are your friends. 
Or they aren't friends. 

They are being friendly to HIM, but being UNfriendly to the team. 

Limiting their interaction to TEAM events is perfectly reasonable.


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## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> But wouldn't that be considered controlling behavior? At least i know that's how he'll see it.


Well, right now you're saying absolutely NO contact EVER, right? THAT would seem to be the controlling act.

So if you say it the way I'm suggesting, you are showing him that you are willing to COMPROMISE so that both of you get SOME of what you want. You get security of his promise to never contact them without you present, and he gets to keep them in his life- somewhat.


----------



## PieOhMy

Got it. Well I'm going to tell him how I feel about the situation as our therapy progresses or as it comes out. I won't demand, I'll just tell him how it makes me feel. After hearing how I feel, if he still wants them in his life, then I'll bring that compromise to the table. Unfortunately.


----------



## PieOhMy

From Love Busters:

They view any attempt to take away their “freedom of choice” as controlling and manipulative, a marriage-wrecker for sure. 

Independent behavior also feeds on the mistaken belief of some that it actually makes spouses more attractive to each other. If clingy dependency is viewed as the only alternative to independent behavior, they’re probably right. But they ignore the fact that neither of those options creates a happy marriage. Only interdependent behavior helps achieve long-term marital satisfaction. 

Another reason that independent behavior is tempting is that some spouses believe they should be blindly trusted in the decisions they make. If their spouse challenges their decisions, they consider it to be disrespectful. In fact, many of my clients have tried to misapply the Love Buster category of disrespectful judgments to their spouse’s complaints regarding their independent behavior. “If you respected me, you wouldn’t challenge my decisions,” is a common defense.

The last paragraph is my H in a nutshell.


----------



## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> Another reason that independent behavior is tempting is that some spouses believe they should be blindly trusted in the decisions they make. If their spouse challenges their decisions, they consider it to be disrespectful. In fact, many of my clients have tried to misapply the Love Buster category of disrespectful judgments to their spouse’s complaints regarding their independent behavior. “If you respected me, you wouldn’t challenge my decisions,” is a common defense.
> 
> The last paragraph is my H in a nutshell.


And that defense itself is disrespectful, as it completely disregards the other's views - in effect challenging them - doing exactly what is being protested against.


----------



## PieOhMy

From Love Busters:

"As I’ve already mentioned, one of the ways to overcome a bad habit is to simply get rid of the conditions that seem to trigger that habit. You may notice, for example, that there are certain people in your life that tend to encourage you to be dishonest with your spouse. Perhaps with those people you find yourself engaging in certain behavior that offends your spouse. And then when your spouse asks about what you’ve been doing, you lie about it. By simply eliminating these people as friends you may find you’ve eliminated your dishonesty as well.

You’ll probably find that your inquiry into the conditions that trigger your dishonesty tends to focus quite a bit of attention on what I’ve called a secret second life. Of course, I encourage you to completely eliminate a secret second life and by doing so you may find that this is the solution to your problem with dishonesty. If you’re simply not doing things that would offend your spouse, you’re not going to be as tempted to be dishonest."

This sticks out to me about my H's friends because he lied and hid things from me four years ago, and now their all doing it again, including my H.


----------



## turnera

I would take that part printed out to the next MC session.


----------



## PieOhMy

I decided to check his phone tonight. And I saw that he actually deleted some parts of his conversations with John, Amy and her brother. I know because on Verizon Messages, it keeps all messages, even if you delete them of your phone. He deleted the text from Amy with the pictures saying "Remember" but I already knew about him deleting that. He told me. He deleted a part of his convo with John when my H asked how many marriage counseling sessions John and Amy went to, and John responded "5 or 6 sessions." He deleted that. And then he deleted some talk between him and Amy's brother about some girls I guess they used to know/hook up with, but I don't really care about that. I just don't like that he's deleting these things.


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## PieOhMy

Probably because in one of our sessions, I had asked him how many sessions they went to. And he said he didn't know. Another lie.


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## turnera

Just shows that he's thinking about them. Nothing more.


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## PieOhMy

I just don't like the lying and hiding.


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## turnera

*shrug*

You have become the person he has to lie to and hide from.

That's what happens when you make demands.


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## PieOhMy

Love Busters:

" But if you follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, that won’t happen. Neither spouse is obligated to spend time with people who make them unhappy because the default condition for the policy is to do nothing until an enthusiastic agreement is reached. You can’t force your parents to treat your wife with respect, but you don’t have to spend time with them, either. If you resolve this conflict the right way, your parents will come to realize that they won’t be seeing much of either of you until they change their ways. The Policy of Joint Agreement helps recreate your relationships with family and friends to satisfy both of you. Unless they treat both of you thoughtfully and respectfully, and you enjoy their company, you shouldn’t make them a part of your lives."

Again, another thing that sticks out to me . With his friends.


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## turnera

Pie, you're missing a HUGE piece of the puzzle. If you read all of Dr. Harley's stuff, you'll see that he will tell you that if your spouse is not being honest and forthright, is not WANTING to please you - and he is NOT right now, trying to follow HNHN and Love Busters and pretending that he will too is not only pointless, but could be harmful to your marriage.


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## PieOhMy

I feel like I've only been expressing to him how I feel. How hurtful the things he does are. Yes, I've made plenty of demands in the past. But I really thought I was doing a good job not to so much.


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## AliceA

At the end of the day, you just need for him to feel empathy for you, or more empathy anyway. It sounds like he tries, but is it an illusion? Like when someone is talking trash about you, and seeing it hurt you, it should hurt him too, but it didn't seem to affect him. It took you threatening to leave before he decided to do anything about it. Did he ever feel empathy or did he just give in to keep the peace? 

Some people lack the ability to feel empathy, and if he can't feel it, how can he ever develop an understanding of why you feel the way you do?


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## turnera

The issue is that HE, TOO, feels under pressure, unloved, not listened to, and taken advantage of. Unless he's a psychopath, he has feelings, too. Since you can't MAKE him do what you want, WANT what you want, CHOOSE what you want, your next best bet for YOUR happiness is to get him to stop feeling like your enemy. Yes, stop the Love Busters. YOUR LBs, not his. You should be reading the book to see how YOU are making HIM unhappy, and stopping those habits, so that HE also stops feeling put upon. 

Once he stops feeling like the enemy, the bad guy, the only one who has to change - and remember a man's top 3 ENs is usually sex, ADMIRATION, and fun - he may start looking at you as the person he wants on his team, the one he wants to make happy. Until then, he feels cornered, he has no sympathy for you because he's too busy feeling sorry for himself because he's the bad guy.

If you were to find a way to talk to him about this, I think you'll see a difference. Note I am NOT saying to coddle him or give him everything he wants. You must stand firm on your boundaries. But if you can discuss it in terms of working as a TEAM, he will care more. You know, since you can't make him change. His actions last night show he is still not seeing you as his team member, but the person he has to hide stuff from. Work on THAT in MC.


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## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> I feel like I've only been expressing to him how I feel. How hurtful the things he does are. Yes, I've made plenty of demands in the past. But I really thought I was doing a good job not to so much.


How do YOU feel when he expresses how hurtful YOU are? Doesn't feel good, does it?


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## PieOhMy

I feel confused because a lot of the things he talks about that he finds hurtful I have already changed on my part, and he doesn't see it. I explain to him how much i love him, how much I don't want him to hurt, how I've changed this or that because I want to be his wife and his best friend, that I want to be the one he goes to. I feel like a broken record because I've made my apologies for the past in so many ways, I've asked him what would make him feel more at ease with communicating with me...when it comes down to it, it just feels like no matter what approach I take, he just doesn't believe me or see it. So I get very confused, and yes, I get very hurt. And I do give him positive reinforcement, I always say thank you and how much I appreciate this or that. I don't do it ALL the time, like i said, I'm not perfect -at all, but it's there. These are the things I've been working on with my IC for a long time.


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## PieOhMy

I think you're both right. I feel like I don't give my H enough credit with certain things. I know I have to look past the hurtful things he says and does and try to focus on the admiration. I do also think he doesn't show any empathy. He's the type that if he sees me crying, he'll ignore it or get mad and ask why I'm crying, but with a bad attitude. I usually have to ask him to comfort me and tell him what to say to me. He didn't use to do it at all, but now he's beginning to a little. Progress!


----------



## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> I feel confused because a lot of the things he talks about that he finds hurtful I have already changed on my part, and he doesn't see it. I explain to him how much i love him, how much I don't want him to hurt, how I've changed this or that because I want to be his wife and his best friend, that I want to be the one he goes to. I feel like a broken record because I've made my apologies for the past in so many ways, I've asked him what would make him feel more at ease with communicating with me...when it comes down to it, it just feels like no matter what approach I take, he just doesn't believe me or see it. So I get very confused, and yes, I get very hurt. And I do give him positive reinforcement, I always say thank you and how much I appreciate this or that. I don't do it ALL the time, like i said, I'm not perfect -at all, but it's there. These are the things I've been working on with my IC for a long time.


fwiw, this is VERY common when it comes to men. He's pigeonholed you into a 'role' in his life - the controlling, nagging wife. It's safe for him to see you that way, so he doesn't have to look at himself. It IS a delicate balance, and I know that sucks, but marriage is hard work, right?

IMO, psychologically speaking, I think it requires just the right amount of loving/giving on your part, boundaries/consequences on your part, LOTS and lots of SAFE communication (not the 'you're doing this wrong' type, but the 'I miss the old us' type), and a healthy dose of 'I want you, but I won't stay in an unhappy relationship.'

Our partner has to see that we will work as a team, that we're willing to make life GREAT for them because we love them, but also that we love ourselves enough that we won't just sit back and accept crumbs - that they CAN lose us, and will, if they don't step up.


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## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> I think you're both right. I feel like I don't give my H enough credit with certain things. I know I have to look past the hurtful things he says and does and try to focus on the admiration. I do also think he doesn't show any empathy. He's the type that if he sees me crying, he'll ignore it or get mad and ask why I'm crying, but with a bad attitude. I usually have to ask him to comfort me and tell him what to say to me. He didn't use to do it at all, but now he's beginning to a little. Progress!


Good stuff. Many men simply never spent a moment growing up thinking about, learning about, or caring about all that 'girly' stuff like emotions. And it just may not come naturally to him. But just like you'd show him how to please you in the bedroom, you need to show him how to please you in the marriage. 

And then, of course, REWARD him hugely for doing so. 

That said, I think it really helps to see the psychology behind what we do. Unless he's abusive, and I don't think he is, he may ignore or get mad at your crying because he (1) doesn't know how to fix it (men often want to fix things), (2) feels shame that you are crying (maybe he knows he's the cause of your pain), or (3) feels shame that he doesn't know how to deal with it, so he shifts it onto you.

So don't necessarily see him as a bad person for not comforting you (unless he is just being a jerk all the time). And always look at your own actions. Are you crying directly because of something he has done, or something else? If it's something he's done, instead of crying, find healthier ways to deal with his actions. I used to cry when H would upset me and I didn't know how to deal with it; at first, he'd try to comfort me. I KNEW that, and it became a bit of a crutch for me - cry and get attention. But after a couple years, he got tired of being my crutch in an unhealthy situation, so he stopped comforting me. So I stopped crying and found other ways to deal with the problem.

That said, this:


> I know I have to look past the hurtful things he says and does and try to focus on the admiration


 isn't quite right. Don't give him admiration when he doesn't deserve it. If he says hurtful things, CALL HIM OUT for it. Tell him it's not acceptable, that you know he can find a healthy way to discuss what he needs to discuss, and take yourself out of the room so he can no longer say hurtful things. Find OTHER things to admire him for, yet don't ignore when he's being an ass. USE your boundaries/consequences to help teach him how to deal with things in a healthy way. Treat me bad - poof! I'll be back later when you can treat me with respect.


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## synthetic

Please listen to what Turnera is saying, and about him deleting stuff on his phone:

It really is none of your concern or business what he does with old texts that you are already aware of. 

I have a ton of texts and pictures from my ex-wife that are still on my phone/computer. From time to time, I feel like deleting some of them (there's too many and I can't delete everything for legal protection). I don't think my current fiancee should have a vote on that.

Why is your husband deleting old conversations bothering you? If you think about it, he's doing exactly the right thing (again). He's erasing things that could possibly lead to him feeling vulnerable. It's a good thing.


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## PieOhMy

How is it a good thing? I think I'm missing something.


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## PieOhMy

I don't expect myself to get a vote on it, I just wish he'd be honest with me and not attempt to hide things. And I don't like it because the things he deleted were things he lied to me about. So, I'm seeing it as, he's deleting the anything that proves he lied to me. It's just upsetting because when I've caught him lying to me, I don't scream and yell at him or anything, I just say "Please don't lie or hide things from me, all I want is your honesty and when I see you doing this, it hurts." And I say that with so much sincerity and heart. Because it really does hurt and I just want him to be open with me.


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## turnera

He doesn't trust you. You really need to understand that. He is not GOING to discuss such things with you because he knows from past experience that if he even brings it up, you will scrunch up your face, you'll be standoffish, you'll express your feelings about them yet again...in other words, if he brings up the subject, HE WILL BE IN PAIN. So he avoids it.

Now, you don't know if he removed it so you have less to yell at him about or if he's seeing your changes and is feeling more for you and wants to get rid of things that hurt you. 

Until you eliminate the LBs and meet his ENs, and stop making the Amy/John thing a WWIII issue, he's not going to discuss it with you.



> Please don't lie or hide things from me, all I want is your honesty and when I see you doing this, it hurts.


To a man, that is flat out CONDEMNATION and lack of admiration. I know, I know, you have to be able to tell him the truth and you're saying it as carefully as you can. But until he sees you're on his side, until he feels safe, he won't be able to see the good intentions of you being careful; he'll just see you on his case, no matter WHAT you say or how you say it.


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## PieOhMy

Thank you, Turnera. We found out that my dog might have prostate cancer this weekend. My dog is like my best friend, I bring him with me everywhere. So I've been a little on edge and I told him how I've been feeling and he's trying to be understanding. I've been thanking him a lot. He's actually doing pretty good. I'm a little more concerned about my dog right now, he's on four different medications now. We'll find out at the end of the week what exactly the tumor is and if it's spread by Friday.


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## PieOhMy

Today is another session for us. I want to bring up the physical abuse.


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## lucy999

Good luck and be strong tonight.

And I'm SO SORRY to hear the news about your dog. I know you're devastated right now.

Hoping for the best possible outcome for both tonight and your dog.


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## PieOhMy

Thank you very much! And thank you to everyone for their support for everything. Will update later!


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## PieOhMy

In our sessions, my husband's parents keep coming up. And it's not usually me bringing them up. It's my H and the therapist. I hope my H is feeling like he's getting something out of therapy and he's able to work some things out about his parents or at least be more at peace. And I never even got to the physical abuse part. Again.


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## farsidejunky

I know its not easy, but be patient. Your therapist clearly sees something to explore.


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## Blossom Leigh

When was the last episode of physical abuse and how frequent is it?

So sorry about your dog 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

It's been about a month now.


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## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> It's been about a month now.


How frequent was it before that? Like in a years time, how many episodes would you call physical contact, intimidation or blocking?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

Maybe 6-8 times


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## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> Maybe 6-8 times


In how many years?


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## PieOhMy

My H and I got into an argument last night. I'm paraphrasing here, but it was about a car we plan on purchasing in a few weeks since we're getting rid of our older one. 

Me: Well this time we can put both our names on the car account so we can help both of our credit scores.
H: Yeah, that's not a problem. As long as I'm the primary owner and my name is first on the bill.
Me: Okay...you always say that about all our accounts and credit cards, and the way you say it sometimes makes me feel a little insecure. Why do you feel like that about these sort of things?
H: Listen, I'm going to do what I want. You can either be in it or out of it. I want my name as the primary on the account, and if you don't like it, then I'll get the car by myself.
Me: I'm not saying anything about your name being the primary, I'm just asking you why you always want it that way?
H: Because I never had my name on anything. It was always the way you wanted it. 
Me: I don't understand. I've told you to come with me to the banks to put your name on all our accounts, but you never did. And you have a car and motorcycle that I told you to go to the DMV and put in your name, but you never did. 
H: I never got to it.
Me: Well this new car is suppose to be for both of us, so whether it's your name, my name, both names as primary, I'd appreciate it if you didn't make any decisions until we're able to figure something out together.
H: There's nothing to figure out, I'm getting this car either with you or without you. 
Me: I'm hearing that I can only be in it if it's your way, and if I don't like it, then you're doing it without me.
H: Yeah. Cause I'm tired of do everything so it benefits you.
Me: Why can't it benefit both of us?
H: Because it always benefits you.
H: So what's it going to be?
Me: I would like to get the car, but I don't want to do anything about it until we are able to talk about this in a better manner. Maybe we can bring it up in MC. 

He didn't respond. After a few minutes...

Me: I love you.
H: Are you sure you're in love with me or some Cinderella idea of a marriage?
Me: Wow. I say I love you, and that's your response. And in a marriage, spouses make decisions together. I tried asking you why you felt a certain way, you got defensive and jumped down my throat. And now you're making independent decisions with no care how I may feel. That's not a marriage. That's single life.

I walked away. I was so upset. I tried not to cry, but I did at the end. Ugh. 

Truth is, I don't really care who's name is first or who is primary, just as long as we both have equal authority/access to the account or it will benefit both our credit scores. And I said that to him at some point. But he was too fired up, I don't think he even heard me.


----------



## Nucking Futs

This guy is a pathetic excuse for a husband. Either he doesn't know how a wife is to be treated or he doesn't view you as a wife. I think you should be seriously considering divorce. You can do much better.


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## lucy999

that latest argument with him sounds like he is a petulant child. reminds me of my ex boyfriend. He actually admitted to my face that if I tell or ask him to do something or not do something he will purposely do the opposite just because he can. Wtf??!

Man, your husband harbors some strong hatred and resentment towards you. Its palpable. He is not in this marriage. He is taking care of one and only and that is himself. I suggest you do the same.I feel like you are trying to push a square peg into a round hole. It just does not fit.you certainly get an A+++ for effort though.


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## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> My H and I got into an argument last night. I'm paraphrasing here, but it was about a car we plan on purchasing in a few weeks since we're getting rid of our older one.
> 
> Me: Well this time we can put both our names on the car account so we can help both of our credit scores.
> H: Yeah, that's not a problem. As long as I'm the primary owner and my name is first on the bill.
> Me: Okay...you always say that about all our accounts and credit cards, and the way you say it sometimes makes me feel a little insecure. Why do you feel like that about these sort of things?
> H: Listen, I'm going to do what I want. You can either be in it or out of it. I want my name as the primary on the account, and if you don't like it, then I'll get the car by myself.
> Me: I'm not saying anything about your name being the primary, I'm just asking you why you always want it that way?
> H: Because I never had my name on anything. It was always the way you wanted it.
> Me: I don't understand. I've told you to come with me to the banks to put your name on all our accounts, but you never did. And you have a car and motorcycle that I told you to go to the DMV and put in your name, but you never did.
> H: I never got to it.
> Me: Well this new car is suppose to be for both of us, so whether it's your name, my name, both names as primary, I'd appreciate it if you didn't make any decisions until we're able to figure something out together.
> H: There's nothing to figure out, I'm getting this car either with you or without you.
> Me: I'm hearing that I can only be in it if it's your way, and if I don't like it, then you're doing it without me.
> H: Yeah. Cause I'm tired of do everything so it benefits you.
> Me: Why can't it benefit both of us?
> H: Because it always benefits you.
> H: So what's it going to be?
> Me: I would like to get the car, but I don't want to do anything about it until we are able to talk about this in a better manner. Maybe we can bring it up in MC.
> 
> He didn't respond. After a few minutes...
> 
> Me: I love you.
> H: Are you sure you're in love with me or some Cinderella idea of a marriage?
> Me: Wow. I say I love you, and that's your response. And in a marriage, spouses make decisions together. I tried asking you why you felt a certain way, you got defensive and jumped down my throat. And now you're making independent decisions with no care how I may feel. That's not a marriage. That's single life.
> 
> I walked away. I was so upset. I tried not to cry, but I did at the end. Ugh.
> 
> Truth is, I don't really care who's name is first or who is primary, just as long as we both have equal authority/access to the account or it will benefit both our credit scores. And I said that to him at some point. But he was too fired up, I don't think he even heard me.


Then he gets the car in his name on his credit. Do not join anymore finances with this guy. In fact, I would begin unraveling my finances from him.


----------



## farsidejunky

I agree that your husband is being petulant.

That said, I want to make a recommendation in your approach.

When you accuse someone of "always needing something their way", even when you use it to ask questions in an attempt to understand, it automatically puts people on the defensive because that indicates that they do it every...single...time, which is likely untrue. Even if it happens 99% of the time,the conversation automatically becomes about your "false" accusation rather than about him needing to control, which is the real problem.

Next time:

"It is obviously important to you to be the primary on this. Help me understand why it is so important to you."

Notice no mention of always, nor past events. Make the conversation about this instance, not every other instance in addition to this one, or you will continue to get the same tripe.

Again, your husband is being a complete turd. But these are techniques that can help in keeping the conversation about the conversation, not about the approach.


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## turnera

Both of you could have handled it better. You TRIED to start out saying help me understand, but then you went right back into blaming him or making things his fault.


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## PieOhMy

Ah...I get it. This is like a science lol. And I should have just ended the conversation sooner, I feel like I took the bait.


----------



## zillard

I feel ______ because I ______. Would you be willing to _______?

Of course, very hard to maintain and refrain when the other cant/wont communicate this way too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Fixed it.



zillard said:


> I feel ______ because I ______. Would you be willing to _______? If you're not willing to _______________, I need to protect myself by doing _________. Let me know what you decide.


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## PieOhMy

I'm really hoping that this kind of talking will eventually come to me naturally. Lol.


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## PieOhMy

These arguments are so stupid. Sometimes I just feel like running away and not coming back for weeks.


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## farsidejunky

PieOhMy said:


> These arguments are so stupid. Sometimes I just feel like running away and not coming back for weeks.


Victim mentality. What are you doing, right now, to try to improve your situation?


----------



## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> I'm really hoping that this kind of talking will eventually come to me naturally. Lol.


It can - after MANY years of practice. Nothing good comes easily. 

Trust me... after a couple years I still often see the "right" thing to say in my head while something completely different comes out in the moment. 

Cut yourself some slack. Already the right elements exist in your interactions. Getting sucked into victim status is completely understandable - and ALL of us do that occasionally. Unfortunately, many times those instances happen at critical points. If not, we wouldn't be here. 

Sharing is learning. And when we don't want to hear it - that's when we need to.


----------



## PieOhMy

Trying to learn how to interact and communicate with my husband efficiently and affectionately. Trying to understand his feelings and his train of thought. IC and MC. And trying to better myself.


----------



## AliceA

So let me get this straight; the bank accounts, a car and a motorcycle are all in your name only because he couldn't be bothered to go to the bank with you, or go to the DMV, and on top of that, he's peeved at you because he was too lazy to do something about it?

As for being the "primary" on something, er, I've never co-signed on anything where you can designate a "primary" owner, what does that actually mean if something happens such as default on the loan payment or whatever?


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## PieOhMy

Well at the time he didn't have any form of identification in the United States. But he's be able to change it to his own name for a year now, and I asked him to go with me to put him on the accounts and to go to the DMV but he never did.

Well, with the only bank account that is joint, he had to be the primary, which meant that it was still a joint account and we were both able to access it equally, but when it came to taxes at the end of the year, the account would only be run under his name. But it doesn't make a difference now because we file jointly. So...any real difference is that his name appears first or above mine. Pride...

As for this car thing...as long as we both have equal access and authorization, I don't care who's name is where lol. But I do want the financing to help my credit. He's pushing for a newer Mustang, I'm pushing for a Chrysler or Hyundai, something good on gas and low maintenance.


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## Blossom Leigh

Wrong financial decisions can affect you for years. Choose wisely.

Until your marital issues settle, I would put all car buying choices on hold.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

Pie, I see a lot of my previous relationship dynamic in your postings. I've read the entire thread, and I had a few comments for you.

1.) Beware thinking that support on an internet forum means that you are doing the right thing, even when the support comes from as diverse a group of people as those here on TAM. It took me a bit to do the same, and the key was this: they see ONLY your point of view. It is therefore highly likely that they will agree with your view of the situation, as it is entirely colored by your perspective. 

Want to see something interesting: make another account, a male one, and rewrite the entire situation using ONLY the words that your husband has used to describe you (or, suggest he make an account and put up the story in his own words). And watch what some of the same posters recommend to "your husband". Having pretty much seen this dynamic exactly (but my wife actually posting)... it will help you to temper the righteousness than can accompany forum support. And maybe open your eyes to some of your own errors. I GUARANTEE you haven't recognized/deal with all of them.

2.) It is encouraging to see that in your own mind you are taking into account his complaints, and trying to find a way to address them. However, based on what you have put here, you aren't SHOWING any of this to him. Therefore, you "feel" like you're putting in the time/energy/effort into compromising, and feel that you deserve recognition for it, but he has seen none of that and only sees that you seem to get your way all the time. 

I have been pretty much in his shoes before. It took a monumental shift in my own thinking because our dynamic had become adversarial. Him vs. Her is NOT a recipe for a healthy relationship/marriage. It is a team sport. If you see the "independence" coming out in him - call it out, and ask him to be part of the team. Likewise, self-monitor and call yourself out - and here's a BIG part - ask him to help you to be part of the team as well. "Compromise" in your own mind never looks quite the same from the other perspective. Particularly when it falls in line with you getting what you wanted entirely, and the other person getting nothing of what they wanted.

3.) Financial issue put a tremendous strain on any relationship. Your husband is in a predicament - one he CLEARLY wants a solution out of, but he is against a rock and a hard place. YOU might think it simple to just reject a family plea/demand for money. This is where teamwork is needed. I would bet money that he wishes he had a legitimate way to reject his parents. I would further suggest he is embarrassed at the dynamic of living free off of your father while paying for his family.

So work together to brainstorm ways to allow him to live with this conflict without sinking your own family. There are a lot of ways to do this (how about actually paying your father rent, and if he's willing, he can sock that away in a bank account to present to you when you move out?). Here in particularly is a situation you should be working together on, and it is instead a wedge between you two. 

All in all - if you truly mean what you say about how you feel about him, I see pretty weak reasoning for anything to "end" here. He's clearly willing to bluster against you - but when the chips are down he proves you're the priority. Maybe you should take that win - and quit finding ways to make it mean less.


----------



## PieOhMy

Hi! My H and I had the house to ourselves this weekend and I surprised my husband with a bbq with his off-roading friends and car guys there (not those other friends). It was a really nice time. Some spots of fighting but we got over it quickly or I'd say that we should wait to bring it up in marriage counseling.


----------



## PieOhMy

ET1SS, I really enjoyed your post. I guess I have my own fears and anxiety to get over. I feel he puts me as priority, but then he does and says things that make me feel like I'm not. So I'm very confused and hurt a lot, and sometimes just straight out stupid for "falling" for his apologies and promises that he never holds to. I feel lost most of the time at this point. And it just feels like so much work, so exhausting. And sometimes I really doubt I have the mental stability to keep up with this marriage.


----------



## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> ET1SS, I really enjoyed your post. I guess I have my own fears and anxiety to get over. I feel he puts me as priority, but then he does and says things that make me feel like I'm not. So I'm very confused and hurt a lot, and sometimes just straight out stupid for "falling" for his apologies and promises that he never holds to. I feel lost most of the time at this point. And it just feels like so much work, so exhausting. And sometimes I really doubt I have the mental stability to keep up with this marriage.


Watch what is done, not what is said. 

And, we all have our limits. Mental stability is vital.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> I feel he puts me as priority, but then he does and says things that make me feel like I'm not.


Actions, not words.


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## Starstarfish

Again, if I was your father OP, I'd be really irked to see someone park a Mustang in my driveway while they are camping at my house. And he wants to keep sending his parents money with a sports car?

I don't want to be a drag, but the other reason he might not want to put his name on things is ... then he can't be held responsible for them. You filing taxes jointly in no way changes you being the only one on all the family debt.


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## turnera

I think it's good you're not on it. One less thing you'll have to pay off when he dumps all the debts on you.


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## PieOhMy

Btw. My friend that has Facebook said to me this morning that Amy is having a C-section today and that she just wanted to give me a heads up so I can prepare myself mentally if she contacts my H. 

I decided to look at my H's text messages just now. She sent him a picture of the baby this afternoon. Just a picture. No words. He didn't respond. And I'm hoping he'll eventually tell me about it. 

I'm very happy he didn't respond, I'm hoping he will continue not to. As for her, she makes me sick.


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## PieOhMy

I just want them all to leave us alone.


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## zillard

If only it were that simple. 

Chin up. Not responding to that was another good hard step for hubby. 

Gratitude goes a long way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

Hubby, good job! Amy, step off! Lol.


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## PieOhMy

If she messages him again, do you think it would be safe to say to him that I'd like us to say something to her along the lines of respecting our marriage and respecting our boundaries?


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## PieOhMy

Or do you think I should just leave it alone as long as H isn't responding to her?


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## PieOhMy

Or maybe he says something to John about it and I say something to Amy? Because in truth, I still have no idea if John knows that Amy texts my H the way she does lol.


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## PieOhMy

Your thoughts and suggestions are greatly appreciated.


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## lucy999

PieOhMy said:


> If she messages him again, do you think it would be safe to say to him that I'd like us to say something to her along the lines of respecting our marriage and respecting our boundaries?


I wouldn't. You and your H have made it crystal clear not to contact your H. You can't control what she does. And you can't control what your husband does, but you CAN find a way to praise him when he doesn't respond to her texts. 

But if you praise him, won't he know you're looking at his texts?

It's a quandary for sure. Man, Amy's got balls the size of Texas. And she's a defiant little b*tch, isn't she?


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## PieOhMy

Yeah. It's not like she bothered sending the picture to me as well. Lol. Probably would have felt better about it if she did.


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## Blossom Leigh

Sorry, but if she is not woman enough to send it to me too, she sure as hell wouldn't be sending it to my H. I would be finding a way to nip that in the bud. You don't repeatedly disrespect my marriage and get away with it. 

Your H not responding was decent but too passive. What he should have done was notice that the text did not include you and called her out on that. "Amy, if you cannot respect my wife by including her in your communications, then refrain from sending them as it is disrespectful to my wife."


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## PieOhMy

That would be nice. Yes, it's passive. But I'm happy with this as well. I feel like his silence says a lot too. Now if she continues, then I would talk to my H about possibly saying something to them, as long as we're both in agreement. Like we both feel comfortable.


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## Blossom Leigh

Great goal to work towards. /\

Just so you know...

Amy pisses me off too and I would have already eaten her lunch by now. >


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## PieOhMy

H just told me about it. Very brief conversation. Basically this:

H: Well since we're doing the whole honesty thing, I wanted you to know that Amy texted me a picture of the baby. I didn't respond to her or anything.
(He showed me the picture)
Me: Well I appreciate your honesty. Thank you for telling me. How do you feel about it?
H: I mean I'm happy for them, the baby looks cute. But text message or not, I don't really care. 
Me: What do you mean?
H: I kind of have a block up around that whole situation right now since it's not on the table right now. 
Me: Okay. (Trying to control my anxiety lol)
H: What's wrong?
Me: Honestly, it just makes me sick. 
H: What do you mean?
Me: Well I don't feel like she's respecting our boundaries and so I don't feel like she's respecting our marriage. Nonetheless, that baby is still hooked up to monitors, so she didn't even wait till she got home to send you that picture. 
H: Can you please do me a favor and not over think it so much and try to push it out of your head?
Me: You're right. And that's what I'm attempting to do right now. I just need a few minutes.
H: I don't even know if John told her what I said to him.
Me: Um...if he has our best interests in mind, he would have shared that with her. And you stopped responding to her weeks ago and yet she still continues to reach out to you. It's all red flags to me. 

He didn't say anything after that. But I thanked him again. And then later I gave him a big hug and told him I love him so much. And we've just been continuing with our day as normal.


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## Blossom Leigh

That was excellent that he came forward. Gives me hope for you guys.


Definitely get the anxiety in check.

Because he came forward so handily I would have left the rest alone for today and slowly cultivate warm walls (aka appropriate boundaries).

Apologize to him for the impatience and reinforce that you appreciate his honesty. Love him.


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## PieOhMy

I don't know if I want to bring it up again. I don't want him to think I'm still thinking about it. I think I'd just rather leave it as is for now and just give him some extra TLC and just love him, like you said.


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## PieOhMy

The anxiety is what I'm fighting with right now. I may seem to be calm, but you can just tell by my body language that I am nervous or concerned, or scared. Like my breathing gets deep (I try to focus on my breathing slow) and my neck tenses up. Inside, my heart is racing and my chest tightens up, sometimes i get nauseous.


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## PieOhMy

I actually told him this past Sunday that I'm going to talk to my doctor about going back on my medications. He asked why, and I told him that with everything that is going on, I am not feeling very well up here (and pointed to my head). He asked what I meant, and I didn't really want to get into it so I simply said that I just don't trust myself and I'm feeling sick. And he said okay. 

I'm becoming very nauseous very easily and lose my appetite on cue. My anxiety is barely under control. And unfortunately, every now and then I catch myself having sad thoughts.


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## zillard

Sad thoughts or scary thoughts?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

Both.


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## zillard

Good that you've recognized that and will be seeking help. Talk to your doc and also your IC about it. Their level of help will depend on how open you are with them.


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## Blossom Leigh

I bet they are fear of abandonment based.

Talk to your IC about Complex PTSD/ and or look it up and read about it.


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## lucy999

Blossom Leigh said:


> That was excellent that he came forward. Gives me hope for you guys.
> 
> 
> Definitely get the anxiety in check.
> 
> Because he came forward so handily I would have left the rest alone for today and slowly cultivate warm walls (aka appropriate boundaries).
> 
> Apologize to him for the impatience and reinforce that you appreciate his honesty. Love him.


Excellent advice!!!


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## PieOhMy

I am very open with my doctors. I tell them everything lol. I was once diagnosed with Bipolar II Disorder. But my current doctors, the ones I've had for the past five years, believe I was misdiagnosed. They believe I have some bipolar tendencies but that I have a lot of anxiety, they've brought up abandonment before too, and depression.


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## Blossom Leigh

Because your body is so reactive, consider studying CPTSD, run it by your IC. I bet you see some of you in it. It can improve, so be encouraged if you do find it as part of your reality.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Never mind, it got resolved. You did fine.


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## PieOhMy

What were your thoughts, Tunera?


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## turnera

Oh, I had written before I read that he told you. I was going to suggest going to him and saying 'it occurs to me that she might contact just you, so if she does, would you mind letting me know and informing her (and cc'ing me) to stop.


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## PieOhMy

I just want her to stop. Lol. It would be very nice if it were that simple!


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## PieOhMy

We didn't have a therapy session this week. Our MC is on vacation. Our next appointment is scheduled for Tuesday.


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## PieOhMy

Is it a bad idea to bring up John and Amy in our next MC session?


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## PieOhMy

I guess I should give it more time. I did ask him what happened with Amy's brother. He asked what I meant. And I asked if he ever told him about giving us space, and he said no, just John. And that was it. So I guess he never heard from him again or the last text I remember them having was when he asked for help from my H but my H never responded. 

In your opinion, men and women, do you think he's going to push these friendships? I look at his actions, and I'm feeling like he's not. But then i look at his words, his commitments to Amy and John as to not cutting them off again, and I don't know.


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## PieOhMy

And I know, look at actions, not words lol. It's just tough. I try to be hopeful.


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## turnera

Thing is, him 'having' to cut them off is humiliating to him. A guy thing, IMO. 'The wife made me do it' and all. So he's not going to willingly go out and push these issues with these people because it's humiliating to him to do so. Doesn't make him a bad person. Makes him normal, in fact. Now, if he starts lying to you, then I'd worry.


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## PieOhMy

I guess I didn't really think people still thought like that. "The wife made me do it." I always just said, "Ah, we were better off without." Or "Things just didn't work out." Or "Honestly, I didn't see it worth hurting my husband." At least that's what I used to say to friends when they asked about my severed ties with old friends, males and females. I don't think i ever really thought about it that way. But like you said, must be a guy thing.


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## zillard

It might be a guy thing, but "my wife made me.." is something I'd never want to say to anybody. So if, in effect, she really did "make" me, I would just do it rather than say it AND do it.


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## PieOhMy

Well that's what I did. I usually didn't feel the need to explain myself but to my very close girlfriends, I was pretty honest with them. Told them X made my H feel Y, so I decided to do Z about it. Yes, my H gave me ultimatums too with some of my past friends, but I told others that whether or not my H was right or wrong with doing that, what it came down to was that it was causing a lot of drama and stress in our marriage, and to be honest, friends come and go. But I want my H to be forever. So I made a decision. And that was it, my girlfriends were pretty supportive and didn't bring it up again and just said they were happy we were doing better and that you got to look out for the well being of both of us.


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## AliceA

At the end of the day, people don't want their partners to do what they say as if it was an order. They want them to *want to* do whatever it takes to keep their relationship happy and healthy, and in their mind, it may be cutting off a toxic friend or family member, finding a different job, getting anger management therapy etc. Getting your partner to see your point of view about it is the biggest struggle imo.

If he sees your request as an order to drop the friends or you'll leave, it will always be a point of contention, and he may comply, but he'll resent you for it. If he saw it as a choice he was making to improve your relationship, you would've both moved on from this discussion by now. I guess he still disagrees that your marriage is better off without them. Either that or the state of your relationship doesn't motivate him. 

I have a similar issue with my MIL. Due to her toxic behaviour towards me, and her continued attacks on me through DH, I chose to completely cut her off. I didn't ask DH to cut her off. I have made such a request from him about something else though (to stop playing a particular game because he was addicted), so I understand that it can get to that point.

It's not just because she was his mother that I didn't ask him to cut her off. He's had friends early in the marriage who I disliked a great deal but I never asked him to cut them off either. I guess I trusted him to make that decision for himself and to not allow his interactions with her to hurt our relationship. He made the choice himself to cut her off as well. He had been offended personally by what she'd said about me, and how that revealed what she thought about him (meaning she thought him weak and stupid to be so fooled by me for the whole 10 years of our marriage).

I didn't say, "I don't want her near US, I don't want you to talk to her anymore". I said, "I don't want her near ME, I don't want to talk to her anymore". I made that choice for me, I didn't make it for him. Whatever came of his choice, so be it. You have both had a history to telling each other what to do. He's done it to you, you've done it to him. It's not the way it should be imo. You're treating each other like children, not equals.


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## PieOhMy

Well I've made it very clear that I don't want them in my life. So I'm hoping this period of time that we're taking no actions with them, he'll be able to think about it and figure out what he wants to do.


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## Alphamale718

No your not! If it's making you feel some type of way, your hubby should respect your feeling and not go on texting her continuously. I'm sure he wouldn't think to kindly of you texting another man when he not around continuously..


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## PieOhMy

Well he stopped responding to her weeks ago. And when he told me that she texted him the other day a picture of the baby, I told him that it makes me sick and I don't feel like she's respecting our marriage. He didn't have much to say about it. I don't think he wanted to get into it. Which is fine, we're probably better off talking about that in MC.


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## zillard

Him not saying much when you stated how it makes you feel is better than arguing and escalating like he was weeks ago. 

Baby steps
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

Exactly. Like, I'm feeling more trust and honesty from him. Which is great for us. But it still doesn't change how I feel about these people.


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## PieOhMy

He is so disrespectful. I am so ready to just walk away and live a happier life. He can't stop taking everything I say the wrong way and putting me down.


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## turnera

Like what?


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## PieOhMy

The other night he seemed and I asked him what was wrong and he said the show (very negative mother) reminds him of his own mother. He didn't want to talk about it further. I left it alone. Today I noticed he seemed upset again after going through his emails. I saw that it was his parents and little brother overseas. I asked him if everything was okay and how they were doing, he said they're fine. Okay. Tonight, we were walking the dog. This was the convo:

Me: When you don't talk to me about what's going on in your life and how you're feeling, I don't feel close to you and I wish I could make you feel comfortable enough to talk to me openly. Sometimes it feels like you're pushing me away.
H: I have nothing to say.
Me: Okay, I understand.
Five minutes of silence.
Me: Talk to me. You're so blah lately.
H: Why do you have to push everything?
Me: I wasn't pushing anything. I just was telling you how I feel. And I meant talk to me about anything, you haven't said a word.
H: Are you walking the dog or are you walking me?
Me: Wow. Seriously?
H: Well isn't that why you wanted to go for a walk, to talk?
Me: I told you I wanted to get some exercise. 
H: You didn't answer my question.
Me: To walk the dog. What answer were you expecting?
H: Well that's the only one I'm going to get.
Me: Wow. I'm really getting tired with this.
H: So am I. And I don't talk to you about anything because you're so negative.
Me: Okay.
H: And I don't talk to you for the reasons I told you in therapy.
Me: I also recall discussing with the therapist that we should start trying to have these conversations outside of MC.
H: You're ****ing ridiculous (laughing/snickering).

I just walked away at that point. We walked the rest of the way back home in silence. We're talking but it's just so fake. I don't want to be around him right now.


----------



## PieOhMy

And I swear I said all of this so calmly and kept my voice low, kept my tone very neutral.


----------



## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> Me: *When you don't talk to me* about what's going on in your life and how you're feeling, *I don't feel close to you* and I wish I could make you feel comfortable enough to talk to me openly. Sometimes *it feels like you're pushing me away*.
> H: I have nothing to say.
> Me: Okay, *I understand*.
> Five minutes of silence.
> Me: *Talk to me*. You're so blah lately.
> H: Why do you have to push everything?
> Me: I wasn't pushing anything. I just was telling you how I feel. And I meant talk to me about anything, *you haven't said a word*.
> H: Are you walking the dog or are you walking me?
> Me: Wow. *Seriously*?
> H: Well isn't that why you wanted to go for a walk, to talk?
> Me: I told you I wanted to get some exercise.
> H: You didn't answer my question.
> Me: To walk the dog. What answer were you expecting?
> H: Well that's the only one I'm going to get.
> Me: Wow. *I'm really getting tired with this*.
> H: So am I. And I don't talk to you about anything because you're so negative.
> Me: Okay.
> H: And I don't talk to you for the reasons I told you in therapy.
> Me: I also recall discussing with the therapist that we should start trying to have these conversations outside of MC.
> H: You're ****ing ridiculous (laughing/*snickering*).


Pointing out the attacks that he felt. In YOUR mind, you have every right to say what you did. And by themselves, your statements make perfect sense. 

But as I've pointed out more than once, he sees you as someone he has to protect himself from. He EXPECTS to be criticized by you. And you're not disappointing him.

Oh, and he says he doesn't want to talk to you, you SAY "I understand," and yet five minutes later YOU decide you're going to talk to him anyway. He doesn't trust you because you SAY you'll do it his way and then decide that what YOU want is more important, more right, whatever. Think about it.

IIWY, I would tightly control what I say to him, keep it only about fun stuff, and ONLY discuss these things in MC.


----------



## PieOhMy

But I said talk to me as talk to me about anything. Lol, cars, the dog, anything. And to tightly control what I say...I feel like that leaves me to not say anything serious. Like you said, only fun stuff. How unrealistic is that? Because he can't handle it we can't have a serious conversation about anything. Finances, family, us, friends. Do I have to wait a week, once a week, to discuss things of concern? I don't want to live like this. This really sucks. I can't say a damn thing to him. I'm getting mad now. I was just hurt and upset. But now I feel anger and feel like I deserve better. I'm sorry. But, I don't know. I feel like I'm falling apart because of a man that only acts like a child. I'm 26 years old. I know I can't be urgent but this has been going on for two years. I can't help but feel like sometimes it's just a waste of time.


----------



## turnera

Then calmly tell him that, and that you're now considering whether you want to be married. So he can decide if he wants to do something about his side. But if you're not willing to leave, it behooves you to find out what WORKS with the man you're married to. 

Look, I GET it, that you feel frustrated. But it's immensely clear that HE, too, feels frustrated. So you just telling him what YOU want, how unhappy YOU are...it just isn't going to get you what you THINK you should get. And I know that sucks. But he isn't a machine. And he's quite obviously built himself into a 'belief system' of what HE is having to deal with.

Just as you no longer care how unhappy HE is and have little concern for making HIM happy unless YOU get to be happy...that's where he is, too. 

Nothing is going to get resolved without the help of a professional. Try to control yourself until you're in front of a MC, ok?

Or just move on.


----------



## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> But I said talk to me as talk to me about anything. Lol, cars, the dog, anything.


That was AFTER he made it clear he wasn't in the mood.



PieOhMy said:


> And to tightly control what I say...I feel like that leaves me to not say anything serious. Like you said, only fun stuff. How unrealistic is that? Because he can't handle it we can't have a serious conversation about anything. Finances, family, us, friends. Do I have to wait a week, once a week, to discuss things of concern? I don't want to live like this.


Yes, you DO have to wait to discuss things of concern, given the husband that you have. What do I keep telling you? That you need a professional to help guide you, because BOTH of you are ENEMIES at this point, and have no intention of helping the other person. There IS no talking about serious stuff at this stage in your marriage. Not without a professional's help. It sucks, but that is the marriage you have.


----------



## PieOhMy

You're right. I just want to be happy. And his misery is really dragging me down.


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## turnera

BTDT, Pie. But that's part of marriage. It's a lifetime of compromise, of not always getting what you want, of struggles because you're trying to keep that person in your life.

You can always leave and try again with someone else. Or be alone. And you're likely to be happy with either of those choices, too. You're only 26, so you have a lifetime ahead of yourself and could easily move on to a different marriage (hopefully after a lot of IC to see what your part was in the destruction of the marriage). It's not like you're 45 with 5 kids or something. In other words, you have options.

And, psychologically speaking, if he KNOWS you're willing to walk, he will likely be more willing to look at HIS side and maybe even listen to the MC.


----------



## zillard

What you meant is one thing. What you said is different. And what he heard is different. 

FWIW, I would have heard the same thing. And did when reading it. 

You asked him to open up about his feelings. He said no. You said OK. 

5 minutes later, you told him to talk to you. How was he to think you meant anything else? Of course he felt pressured.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

"When you are ready to talk, I am ready to listen."

Then let him come to you.

Honest question:

Do you have issues with control?


----------



## PieOhMy

I think so. Or at least I used to, thus the ultimatums in the past. Right now...I just want to be happy and healthy. And I'm seriously considering bringing up in the next counseling session that I need space from him for the sake of my mental health.


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## PieOhMy

I have to think about this. I'm really not sure if I can handle doing this.


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## farsidejunky

Doing what? You are kind of all over the place today.


----------



## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> Me: When you don't talk to me about what's going on in your life and how you're feeling, I don't feel close to you and I wish I could make you feel comfortable enough to talk to me openly. Sometimes it feels like you're pushing me away.
> H: I have nothing to say.
> Me: Okay, I understand.
> Five minutes of silence.
> Me: Talk to me. You're so blah lately.


You want to talk to him about something else? Bring up something else and see if he bites! Nobody is going to want to talk to you after you tell them that they are "blah". That's just plain pissy.



PieOhMy said:


> H: Why do you have to push everything?
> Me: I wasn't pushing anything. I just was telling you how I feel. And I meant talk to me about anything, you haven't said a word.


He just told you he has nothing to say. Maybe what HE meant was, AT ALL. Maybe he just needs to clear his head.




PieOhMy said:


> H: Are you walking the dog or are you walking me?
> Me: Wow. Seriously?


Pissy, combative attitudes usually get pissy, combative responses. You both are guilty of terrible communication and lack of restraint here.



PieOhMy said:


> H: Well isn't that why you wanted to go for a walk, to talk?
> Me: I told you I wanted to get some exercise.
> H: You didn't answer my question.
> Me: To walk the dog. What answer were you expecting?
> H: Well that's the only one I'm going to get.


If you initiated the walk to "talk", he's going to think YOU have something to say. Clearly you didn't, and you wanted the walk to try to GET HIM to talk. He made it clear he wasn't in the mood for that. You kept prying. Sure, you meant talk about anything. Why? I'm guessing as a round about way to get him to open up. Talking about cars was certainly NOT your motive for taking the walk, was it?



PieOhMy said:


> Me: Wow. I'm really getting tired with this.
> H: So am I. And I don't talk to you about anything because you're so negative.


The dialogue, started by you, was negative. You had different intentions, but there is a time and place for you to open up to him and him to open up to you. That often will not be exactly when you want it to happen.


----------



## PieOhMy

I am all over the place. I feel lost. I'm not even close to my period. I think it's because I don't feel good, mentally. And I know I'm getting close to a point where I become an emotional hot mess. And I don't want to get there. I think I just need space from him.


----------



## PieOhMy

Actually, when I said that to him, "talk to me" I said that as friendly as possible. I was smiling. And I would have been willing to talk about many other things. I took the walk because I was sick of sitting on the couch and asked him if he wanted to join. He said yes. We were talking about all the rabbits in our neighborhood, there was silence, and then I said what I posted.


----------



## PieOhMy

It was something on my mind for the past week, and I had been wanting to say it, so I did. I guess it was not the right time. And I'm just getting frustrated that anything serious can only be done on his time, when he's ready. We were suppose to talk about finances this weekend, I was waiting for him to come to me. Finally, I asked him around noon and he said it's not going to happen today because he doesn't feel like it. He's been postponing this talk for almost 2 weeks.


----------



## PieOhMy

He just seems so unmotivated. He doesn't want to get off the couch. I wish he'd get in to see an IC, too. But I'm afraid to say anything.


----------



## PieOhMy

I feel like I should hire a financial advisor to meet with us. Is that a bad idea?


----------



## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> I took the walk because I was sick of sitting on the couch and asked him if he wanted to join.


Was that really the reason? Look what you wrote, below:



PieOhMy said:


> The other night he seemed and *I asked him what was wrong*... He didn't want to talk about it further. I left it alone. Today I noticed he seemed upset again after going through his emails... *I asked him if everything was okay* and how they were doing, he said they're fine. Okay. Tonight, we were walking the dog. This was the convo:





PieOhMy said:


> It was something *on my mind for the past week*


IMO, he was observant in thinking you wanted to walk in order to talk. 



PieOhMy said:


> I'm just getting frustrated that anything serious can only be done on his time, when he's ready.


If it involves HIS feelings and thoughts - Yes, it should be when he's ready. You should respect that.

If it involves YOUR feelings and thoughts - Yes, it should be when you're ready. He should respect that.

MC is different. Hence, if he's not ready and you've been stewing on it for a week - wait until MC.


----------



## PieOhMy

Whether we were walking the dog or not, I would have still said that at some point during the night. That, I do know. And you're absolutely right, if it's concerns his feelings and thoughts, but I meant in regards with finances as well. I will wait for MC, but every time he laughs at me or starts saying stuff like, "You're f*cking ridiculous" or even the "are you walking me" just makes me want to walk away and not talk to him for days.


----------



## PieOhMy

I thought I was keeping it to my feelings and how things made me feel, but he obviously took my "talk to me, you've been so blah" as a full attack.


----------



## zillard

Those are very disrespectful things to say. Of course you feel that way when he says them! 

Just as he doesn't want to talk when you get pissy.

Now finances, you're married. If it needs to be talked about, and he won't, tell him you'll proceed how you will if he won't discuss it with you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> I thought I was keeping it to my feelings and how things made me feel, but he obviously took my "talk to me, you've been so blah" as a full attack.


"You've been..." is confrontational.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

"Blah" is at the very least not helpful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PieOhMy

I said that smiling, I said that to him in like a joking friendly way, if you can picture it. I said "Talk to me, you've been so blah" and I was smiling and I had a poopy bag in my hand and tapped him in the butt with it. I was being playful. And that's what makes me lose hope. I am so playful and my spirits are really up a lot. And yet he's just so miserable. I sometimes feel like I will never be able to make him happy. I can see where the communication was off or the misunderstanding, but it just happens too often. He thinks I have another agenda all the time. ALL THE TIME.


----------



## PieOhMy

Holy crap, I guess there's a whole other dictionary I need to get my head into. Or I need to take a Marriage Communications 101 class. Can you guys give me the suggested sentence structure again?


----------



## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> I said that smiling, I said that to him in like a joking friendly way, if you can picture it. I said "Talk to me, you've been so blah" and I was smiling and I had a poopy bag in my hand and tapped him in the butt with it. I was being playful. And that's what makes me lose hope. I am so playful and my spirits are really up a lot. And yet he's just so miserable. I sometimes feel like I will never be able to make him happy. I can see where the communication was off or the misunderstanding, but it just happens too often. He thinks I have another agenda all the time. ALL THE TIME.


Regardless, your timing sucked. 

At a good place in a relationship, no problem. You two are so very far from being in a good place. So you have to be extra mindful. 

No, it's not fun to be where you are. Frustrating to the point of wanting to pull your hair out and scream. I know, I've been there. 

And I wouldn't blame you one bit if you decided you're too frustrated to continue.


----------



## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> Holy crap, I guess there's a whole other dictionary I need to get my head into. Or I need to take a Marriage Communications 101 class. Can you guys give me the suggested sentence structure again?


Say that exact thing in MC. So you both hear it and can recognize each other's efforts to improve communication.


----------



## PieOhMy

Found it.

I feel ______ because I ______. Would you be willing to _______? 

If you're not willing to _______________, I need to protect myself by doing _________. Let me know what you decide.


----------



## PieOhMy

I think if it were up to him there would be no communication. I really do. Maybe that's the negative part of me talking but he's told me that so many times. And wouldn't I only be starting trouble if I just choose to do what I think is best with the finances? Cause I'm not including him or being impatient? When I looked at his texts tonight, his dad asked for $1000 for his little brother's schooling and food. H never responded. I can see why he's been in such a bad mood. But I still feel like saying, "Were you expecting something else?" In MC, I actually usually let him take the lead and he and the therapist do a lot of talking. Sometimes I feel like I'm only going so he will open up and talk to someone. I wish he'd consider going to IC. Or come to terms that these are who his parents are. So perhaps he can enjoy himself a little more without feeling guilty. It's sad, he doesn't share the positives of our lives with his parents and doesn't ever tell them about anything exciting that has to do with money. Like he didn't tell them that we went on vacation to S.C. He told them we just stayed at my Aunt's shore house and I couldn't tell them any of the fun stories we had. So sad. I don't know how he puts up with it. I give him a lot of credit for that. I would have told them to be supportive and positive, and that if they bring up money, I'm not talking to them, and that if i want to send them money, I will when I want to. But I'm sure that's much easier said than done.


----------



## zillard

If a necessary financial decision needs to be made, he chooses to not discuss it, and doing nothing with financially harm you or the marital finances, what choice do you have but to act? 

But if that's the case, fair warning is warranted. That's what I suggested. 

If this is all about his parents again, that's different. Both of you doing nothing would be better than sending them another grand. It just went from 500 to 1000 in a couple weeks. What next time? 

It's been suggested before that you start separating your finances from him. I think it's a good idea.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

And I would start rethinking your monitoring of his texts. 

It's causing you way too much anxiety.


----------



## PieOhMy

I've been trying. It usually calls for something to happen. Like he's in a really bad mood or depressed like, or like the day Amy had her baby.


----------



## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> Actually, when I said that to him, "talk to me" I said that as friendly as possible. I was smiling. And I would have been willing to talk about many other things.


You keep saying this. You seem to think that if you just smile enough, a man will trust you. Maybe you learned this as a young girl? That if you act 'feminine' enough, you get what you want? I know plenty of women like that, and trust me, the men do NOT feel loved or respected.


----------



## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> I thought I was keeping it to my feelings and how things made me feel, but *he obviously* took my "talk to me, you've been so blah" as a full attack.


Yeah, AND SO DID WE!

You're not listening, Pie. 

In YOUR mind, you are right and justified and being sweet and full of love. Of course YOU don't see what you said as wrong because in your mind YOU are the good guy and HE is fvcking up. So you need to 'fix' him.

Trust me, it SUCKS to live with a person who feels that way about you. I've gone so far into my shell to avoid being told what I'm doing wrong that I filter every single act I do through 'will he disapprove of me.' And my H doesn't ever even say anything any more. He just has to roll his eyes, or sigh, and I know I'm being judged. Just yesterday, I must have run that filter at least 20 times over things. 

THAT is what your H feels like. THAT is why he's depressed and just sits on the couch and won't talk to you. 

I think you need to be discussing THIS in MC, not what's wrong with your H.


----------



## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> I said that smiling, I said that to him in like a joking friendly way, if you can picture it. I said "Talk to me, you've been so blah" and I was smiling and I had a poopy bag in my hand and tapped him in the butt with it. I was being playful. And that's what *makes me lose hope*. I am so playful and my spirits are really up a lot. And yet he's just so miserable. *I sometimes feel like I will never be able to make him happy. *I can see where the communication was off or the misunderstanding, but it just happens too often. He thinks I have another agenda all the time. ALL THE TIME.


You DO, from what we've seen. You are dead set on CHANGING him. And he knows it.

And the stuff in bold? I guarantee HE is feeling the exact same thing. So he has shut down. That's what men do when they're constantly told they're doing wrong, dragged to therapy.

Look, I'm NOT trying to say he's some saint and you're horrible. Not at all. He needs to fix a lot of stuff, too. 

But what you're doing isn't working. And you guys are too young to be this dysfunctional this early in your marriage. But if you don't stop pushing this all on him, HIS fault, if you don't start owning your own stuff, he's going to give up and leave.


----------



## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> Found it.
> 
> I feel ______ because I ______. Would you be willing to _______?
> 
> If you're not willing to _______________, I need to protect myself by doing _________. Let me know what you decide.


Hey, I recognize that, I wrote it!

Well, I embellished the original I FEEL statement by adding the ACTION statement. 

But please wait to do this in therapy, ok? Like I KEEP telling you, in his mind, you are HIS ENEMY. He probably wonders what he ever saw in you. 

Did you ever read His Needs Her Needs? If so, you'll recall that we all have top Emotional Needs. And a good 90% of men all have these three top ENs: Sex, Recreation (having fun with your wife), and Admiration (knowing your wife admires you and respects you).

He's not getting Admiration from you. But I imagine Amy would be THRILLED to admire him all the way to the moon.

We all know you WANT him to be all you want him to be. But you can't FORCE him. All you can do is BE the person who he WANTS to be that person for.

Right now, your relationship is so toxic he has no desire to meet your needs (btw, financial responsibility is often one of a woman's top ENs). All he cares about is protecting himself from you.

So end the toxicity. Stop pushing your agenda. Work on the marriage. 

When I first came to forums, I was JUST LIKE YOU. It's all his fault, he's abusive, he needs to change, I can't take it any more. For TWO years, people kept pushing me to look in the mirror. To fill out the Love Buster questionnaire - for HIM, so I could see how HE saw ME. I finally broke down and did it, saw what I was doing to make HIM unhappy. What an eye opener! I was just as bad as he was! So I made a vow that day to stop the LBs. You would be amazed at how fast he came around! He was starving for affection from me, for the lack of LBs, and his change in attitude was almost instantaneous.

For several months, I stopped pushing for what I wanted. I focused ONLY on what would make him happy (since I was here getting help and he wasn't learning from anywhere like I was). Because I learned in HNHN that if I make ME an attractive choice for him to get his ENs met, he will WANT to do the same for me. He'd be happy to do it for me, if I would only stop the LBs and make sure his ENs were met.

So maybe just go back to HNHN and focus on that for the next few weeks. See what happens. Ask him to fill out the LB questionnaire - tell him you want to know exactly how you are making him unhappy so you can change it.


----------



## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> I don't know how he puts up with it. I give him a lot of credit for that.


IIWY, I'd get a card, and write that in it - nothing more - and leave it for him. He needs to hear some praise from you.


----------



## PieOhMy

I think I need to make a little mini rule list I can run through my head before I open my mouth.


----------



## PieOhMy

Like something straight and simple, easy to remember. 

And maybe I should get a bunch of funny cards or post its with funny cartoons on them, and if I have something positive to say it, I'll just leave it at his bedside. Too much?


----------



## PieOhMy

Like if the conversation doesn't call for it, I mean.


----------



## turnera

Overkill.

One card, with a thank you/admire you in it. No more than once a month or he'll believe you have an agenda.

Which you do.

Read HNHN. Print out the LBQ and give it to him; ask him to help you in that way. Then leave him be.

And the last three posts...still all about what you can do to change HIM.

Nothing about changing YOU.


----------



## lucy999

Pie, it seems you and I are quite similar. Correct me if I'm wrong. We like to take control, and we want things resolved RIGHT THIS MINUTE. You want to know so you can plan and think about future consequences of those plans. I get it. 

But you're poking your H way too much. This cannot be resolved quickly. In fact, there's a possibility it can't even be resolved.

You sound inflexible and pushy. Please know it's merely an observation and not a mean-spirited comment.

He knows the frustrations you have with him and the relationship. You've talked about them directly to him and via the MC. Repeating it ad nauseum and continually poking him and constantly living in that moment of strife isn't helping.

You need to make both yourself and your home a safe haven; a soft place for him to land every night when he comes home. 

Sure, he's got issues too and he's not an innocent victim in this, but try being more yielding, flexible, and loving.

Think about the past week. Is there one day where you haven't talked about your relationship? 

Like the others have said; save it for MC.


----------



## farsidejunky

lucy999 said:


> Pie, it seems you and I are quite similar. Correct me if I'm wrong. We like to take control, and we want things resolved RIGHT THIS MINUTE. You want to know so you can plan and think about future consequences of those plans. I get it.


This is why I asked if you have issues with control.

Pie, you cannot change your husband. No rationalizations, justifications or other forms of lying to yourself will change that truth.

He has to WANT to change himself. In order for that to happen, he has to WANT you badly enough to do so. You are having the exact opposite effect.

If I were to guess, your anxiety is causing this. What Turnera (and others) are suggesting is to stop dealing with your anxiety by demanding others around you change, and start dealing with it by changing yourself.

When you start to become amazing to yourself, funny things happen. Those around you start to recognize how amazing you are, and start treating you the same way. The other thing that happens is you do not tolerate having those that do not treat you amazingly around you anymore.


----------



## PieOhMy

I get it. I can't change him, the only person I can change is myself. I know this. I just sometimes feel like what he sees in me is such an illusion because of his resentment. I know I have several things I need to work on. I just can't help feeling like he exaggerates some of these things or some of them are made up in his head. I feel like that's actually a big trait of people who are caught up in resentment. 

And I'm going to print those quizzes out and ask him to fill his out for therapy tomorrow.


----------



## turnera

Not your issue, Pie. If you wrap your life up around what HE says or does, you give away your control over your own life. And you put your happiness in the hands of someone or something that you will forever be chasing. If he wants to exaggerate things, that's his issue. YOU KNOW what you do and don't do. So who cares what he says you do or don't do? His to own. 

That's your control issue coming through again.


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## zillard

Yeah, frequent exaggerations are very irritating and frustrating. But you can't make anyone stop doing that, or even admit that they are exaggerating. Even trying to get them to see that they DO it is a desire to "win". 

You CAN try to understand them, though. 

What I hear you saying is that you feel _____. Is that correct? What can I do to help?


----------



## PieOhMy

She messaged my H another photo of the baby. H didn't respond.


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## PieOhMy

Will give more details later. Getting ready for our session.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Pie, I want to give you a visual that I think will help you a LOT.

Your man needs to see you as the ONE place he is safe.

He is getting pressure from Amy, his parents and you all at the same time. If one or all of you don't stop he will leave you *all* eventually because as you are realizing a person can only take so much emotional pressure. 

So... listen to this song....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJtf7R_oVaw

When you feel the urge to press in, stop and sing this song in your head and I believe you will see some changes in your H. He will stop closing off. When you stay back and retreat it gives him space to come to you. When you are pressing in, it leaves no space for him to come to you. Find other ways to pacify yourself until he figures out you are not going to put the pressure on.


----------



## PieOhMy

I didn't. He told me. Right before our session. He told me about Amy's message. And he told me about his parents asking for a $1000.


----------



## PieOhMy

Then we went into the session and discussed it all a little more. So I think you're advice is working. I'll post more later.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Blossom Leigh said:


> Pie, I want to give you a visual that I think will help you a LOT.
> 
> Your man needs to see you as the ONE place he is safe.
> 
> He is getting pressure from Amy, his parents and you all at the same time. If one or all of you don't stop he will leave you *all* eventually because as you are realizing a person can only take so much emotional pressure.
> 
> So... listen to this song....
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJtf7R_oVaw
> 
> When you feel the urge to press in, stop and sing this song in your head and I believe you will see some changes in your H. He will stop closing off. When you stay back and retreat it gives him space to come to you. When you are pressing in, it leaves no space for him to come to you. Find other ways to pacify yourself until he figures out you are not going to put the pressure on.


I'm not sure I agree with the choice of music. Try this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJFGAX77zw4&list=RDiJFGAX77zw4#t=10

You might even want to softly sing it aloud so those around you can hear it.


----------



## zillard

Nucking Futs said:


> I'm not sure I agree with the choice of music. Try this:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJFGAX77zw4&list=RDiJFGAX77zw4#t=10
> 
> You might even want to softly sing it aloud so those around you can hear it.


Ahahaha!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PieOhMy

Okay. He's attached to the tv now. 

In Laws: His parents have been asking for money again. They even got his little brother involved, he's 16, telling my H he needs to respond to their parents. Etc., etc. This is the awesome part: H told his parents that my father is now requesting $800 rent payment every month and payment of 25% of the utilities. No, my dad is not requesting that, so H is lying. But at least he's telling them that he's got priorities here. And H actually told them that when we move out, he'll probably have nothing to give them. We still haven't had the finance talk yet, but it does tell me that he hears me, because that $800 rent and 25% utilities was my suggestion a few weeks back that he shot down. I told him I was proud of him and thanked him for putting our needs first. 

In MC he said that he feels like his parents are robbing him. He also said that he thinks I made him a stronger person. I was kind of surprised by that one. The therapist told him that he should consider trying to talk about things with me. That he shouldn't have to keep these things in and endure it alone. And that part of a marriage is opening up to each other and getting through troubles together.

Amy: Okay, I just need to get this off my chest, THIS B*TCH HAS GOT TO STOP. Lol, okay, been holding that in all day. He told me about her sending him a photo of the baby again. I asked him if he could understand why I felt the way I did with her continuously texting. He said he thinks it's because she doesn't want us to forget about them. I said okay, and that I don't feel like she's respecting our boundaries. Saved the rest for MC. 

In MC, therapist asked if I felt she was a threat. I said yes. He asked why. I said because I feel like she is reaching outside of her own marriage for some kind of emotional intimacy that she may not be getting elsewhere. He asked if I felt like my H would flirt back, I said not really, but still give her some sort of attention. I told him that I feel closer about my H telling me about her texts, but her continuing to do this doesn't not make me feel any better about pursuing a friendship with these people. My H still said that he thinks she just doesn't want us to forget about them. Therapist said that whether or not she may or may not be flirting, it would be in the best interest of our marriage for H to figure out how to respond to her and discuss it with me, together. So H and I are going to respond back to her tomorrow, TOGETHER. (At first he said he'll send the text on his own, and i asked if I could be there when he did. Then he asked why I should be involved. And I stated that I would like to do this together, as a team. And then he said okay). He asked what i thought would be the best, I said, "Well, I don't think we should sugar coat it but il there's no need to be rude. Let's just be forward. How about this: Congratulations on the baby. However, my wife and I need our space right now and I would appreciate it if you stopped texting me." He said that sounded okay. So we'll talk more tomorrow.


----------



## turnera

Nice work!


----------



## PieOhMy

I'm not going to lie, but I'm still kind of in shock about the $1000 request from his dad and the text message from Amy. I'm trying not to dwell on it. I am very happy with my husband's responses and our session. I'm not mad at him, I'm just mad at these external issues. I told my IC today that I just need to vent a little. And I said this: I'm so fed up with this btch. I feel like she's no just disrespecting my marriage, but she's disrespecting me too. And with his parents, holy sht, $1000? Do they think we're made of it? I just want these people to leave my husband, to leave US alone. I want to tell Amy to get off my H's dck, she's got one of her own at home. And I want to tell my in-laws to get they're sticky fcking fingers out of my H's wallet. I can't help but feel bad for my H and sometimes I wonder if he's so naive or passive sometimes because he doesn't know what good friends and good family are really like. Because that's all he's been around. This is the only family he's ever really known. And these friends are the only ones he ever really had except for a very close friend, Matt, that he keeps in touch with but hasn't seen for years. 

Breaks my heart.


----------



## zillard

His lack of boundaries and sugar coating crap with his parents inevitably spills over into the rest of his life. That's why family of origin work is so important. 

Are you discussing your FOO with your IC? You've been seeing one for quite a while. Is your IC challenging you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Pie, you need to be telling your H all this. There is a TON of admiration in your posts for your H that he needs to hear. Just like you felt wonderful when he said a nice thing about you.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> Pie, you need to be telling your H all this. There is a TON of admiration in your posts for your H that he needs to hear. Just like you felt wonderful when he said a nice thing about you.


I LOVE to hear that stuff! Even though not my primary love language, the smallest bit of admiration from a SO goes a long way and can fuel me for days.


----------



## PieOhMy

Maybe I'll write that in the card, too lol. Maybe I'll get a funny card this morning and give it to him during lunch. And just present it and say how much closer I've felt to him lately and thank him for his hard work.


And I guess I just don't understand why Amy and his parents continue to do this. It just seems so wrong to me. Doesn't feel right. I mean, at least with the parent's thing it's more of a cultural thing. But with Amy, I'm still trying to believe that it's because "they don't want us to forget about them." Like my H said. But of course, my gut is telling me something else.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Trust your gut, be patient and tender with Hubs. Believe he loves you.

And sing the song when you feel anxious about his behavior.


----------



## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> And I guess I just don't understand why Amy and his parents continue to do this. It just seems so wrong to me. Doesn't feel right. I mean, at least with the parent's thing it's more of a cultural thing. But with Amy, I'm still trying to believe that it's because "they don't want us to forget about them." Like my H said. But of course, my gut is telling me something else.


If nobody wants to be around me, it's probably because I'm an a$$hole. 

If everybody around me is using me, it's probably because I'm a doormat.


----------



## zillard

Another thing, Amy is not doing this to you. She likely doesn't think about you much at all. She is doing this for her. You can't change that.

So what do you do? Stop focusing on her and focus on you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

They do it because he's a doormat. Users suck the life out of Givers. And because he won't stand up to them, they continue to suck.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> They do it because he's a doormat. Users suck the life out of Givers. And because he won't stand up to them, they continue to suck.


People are naturally selfish. If they aren't self aware enough to keep themselves in check, it's the boundaries of others that will. 

If no boundaries exist...


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Pie, my H knows that if he lets someone else in too close he WILL lose me, so he keeps them out and no longer allows disrespect of his wife.

I don't think your H thinks he will lose you.

I leave space open for my H, I'm patient and tender with him most days, but I don't do that in the face of chronic disrespect, not anymore.

Those days between the two of us are over.


----------



## PieOhMy

Well he's not responding to her. But he hasn't brought up messaging her together, yet. And I have a feeling he's not. And I don't want to be the one to bring it up. Is that bad? Like him not doing anything about it disrespectful?


----------



## PieOhMy

I am focusing on me, too. Trying to stay busy.Today I'm off, so I'm doing a lot of little projects outside. But still wish that H would just handle the situation with Amy. See how it's making me uncomfortable.


----------



## PieOhMy

What do you mean the days between you're over?


----------



## turnera

The days of her letting him let someone come between them are over. She has made it clear to him that if it happens again, if he responds to an 'Amy,' Blossom will divorce him. So he doesn't.

My H has never cheated in 35 years, despite many opportunities traveling (as far as I know). I asked him about a year ago why he never did. He told me that it's because when we married, I told him that if I ever found out he was cheating, I would disappear, kids and all, and he'd never see us again. And I meant it. I won't tolerate it. 

And he knew it.


----------



## PieOhMy

Ooh, okay, I get it. Yeah, if he did...idk what I would do. I'd be pretty heart broken but would probably just walk away at that point...


----------



## PieOhMy

On a brighter note: 

I got a cute and funny card that says on the front "thanks from the bottom of my butt" with a picture of a rabbit cartoon, and on the inside it says "it's a lot bigger than my heart." He homes about my butt all the time cause it's like a bubble butt. And on the inside I dated it and wrote "It was our 7th session yesterday, lucky 7! I thought you'd find this card funny. I just wanted to say...Thank you! For the effort you've been putting into us. For all the things you endure, I really give you a lot of credit. Stay strong! I love you!"

I have a back up card in case that one doesn't sound good. I liked it though.


----------



## PieOhMy

Jokes*


----------



## farsidejunky

I love cards like that, but I am a strange one...


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

I've read your thread, and I'll admit I'm late to this. I mean no disrespect to those trying very hard to help you out, but in the end it's been long overdue for you to stop the insanity. Both of you came from poor family backgrounds. Your husband needs A LOT of IC help. IMHO, MC is secondary on the list. He's an abuser. There's no sugar coating that. I understand that people are trying to split hairs and opine that it's a learned behavior and not a "core trait". You know what? It IS a core trait. It is who he is. Can he change? Absolutely. Should you be the one to stick with him while he changes? That's up to you, but if I were you I'd stick a fork in this marriage.

You ARE NOT READY to be married. He is NOT READY to be married. I'm sorry. I do not mean to be mean, offensive or to be confrontational. But ask yourself this: What kind of person would leave an abusive relationship with one guy, then date and MARRY the YOUNGER BROTHER of her ABUSER??? Something is not right. You are 26 years old. You have a whole life ahead of you. I think your husband is too damaged to be a good marriage partner. I think you are too damaged to be a good marriage partner.

Again, I'm so sorry to be saying this to you. But I think what I write is the truth. I hope whatever you decide works out, but consider what I say. Good Luck.


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## PieOhMy

Okay. I appreciate your comments.


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## turnera

Can't really argue with the maybe you're not ready to be married comment. I always recommend that people never marry before at least 25 so they have time to work out real life stuff and then only get serious after at least a year or two of dating, so you have time to see the bad stuff as well as the good stuff. I keep telling you you're only 26, you can start your whole life over again.

And I agree he needs IC. Maybe if the MC produces results, he'll consider it.


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## PieOhMy

Or maybe this marriage isn't the right one for me or for him.


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## PieOhMy

I wish I could like repost this in that Men's Clubhouse Forum. I've been going through there looking at forums about finances and opposite sex friends to try and understand my H a little lol.


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## PieOhMy

Btw. The finance talk still hasn't come up. And he never brought up us sending a message to Amy. I did ask if he heard from her, he said no. And that was it.


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## turnera

Tomorrow night, if he doesn't say anything, ask to hold his phone. Then say "I'm ready for that message we're going to send to Amy." Look him straight in the eye. Say NOTHING else. And wait for his response.


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## PieOhMy

And if he says he doesn't feel like doing it now or says he decided he doesn't want to say anything, I just say okay and walk away? Or just continue on with whatever we were doing?


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## PieOhMy

And then bring it up in our next session?


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## turnera

If you look him right in the eye, and he walks away or says he's not ready, then you say to him "I see. I am NOT your priority. I get it now. I'll make plans for my future without you." And you go to bed.


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## Hardtohandle

Just read my last few pages in my thread listed in my signature labeled mymistake if you want to know about opposite sex friend issues I had with my GF...

But nonetheless I will summarize it here.. You have 48 pages of this amy person along with other things going on.. 

I fought with my GF tooth and nail about this male guy friends bullsh!t.. In the end my own cheating ex whorish wife even said, guys and girls cannot be friends unless one of them is gay or a cousin, But even with a cousin he or she still might have to be gay.. 

I can tell you me and the GF fought every week about something.. 

Everyone INCLUDING my Therapist at one point told me to get rid of her.. He apologized because he knew he couldn't say that or get involved.. But he did say it nonetheless..

But I still didn't we fought and fought and fought and fought and broke up and fought and got back together and fought and fought and broke up and fought and got back together and fought and fought and fought..

Then even I got tired of and broke it off sadly.. We just weren't on the same page with many things.. We were literally both trying to put a square peg in a round hole for each other.. 

She wanted me to accept her loose morals and I just refused and wanted he to change.. I couldn't change her and she couldn't change me.. 

Turnera will tell you don't try to be a savior.. Save your fvcking self.. Trust me you're 26 and hardly know sh!t.. When you're 36 you will look back and say wow I was dumb at 26... Not because you are, because we ALL did and do.. Heck I'm 48 and I say that now about last week.. 

The simplicity here is there should NOT be 48 fvcking pages of Amy.. 

You want to fix this.. Let him talk to his GF and you go talk to your Guy Friend(s)... Trust me if he really loves you and really cares when he see's you walking off giggling at what tommy sent you he will snap.. 

All you need to do is tell him, when you're done with Amy I will be done with tommy and john and charlie, ETC....

Use your women powers and please, please don't make me, a guy have to explain this to you.. 

Women have men by the balls.. Women can go out at any time, ANY TIME and get a date.. They can get a date at a gas station, on a bank line, buying vaginal itch cream in a drugstore, that includes the price check over the loudspeaker moment as well..

Guys I don't care how good looking they think they are just can't do all of that.. Granted brad pitt can, but that's because women know he can get angelina Jolie.. When I walked into a bar with my hot EX GF, women looked at me.. They wanted to know how I had such a hot chick.. Men looked at me and wanted to know.. And like everyone thinks, it's either money or a big d!ck or a bit of both.. The great thing was when younger hot and attractive women would look.. My Ex GF would get all clingy and call them Wh0res.. I loved it because it just made me look even BETTER... 

The difference here is I'm a big imposing man.. I know it.. I'm a cop and I know how to put on the get the fvck away from me look or are you fvcking looking my way ? The bartender at the club knew me because I took care of them.. The bouncer knew me because he knew what I did for a living.. 

So I had the advantage at these places, just my GF didn't realize it.. All she had to do was slightly turn the tables and I could have become the clingy one.. 

Turn the fvcking tables.. What the fvck do you have to loose ? 

If he goes after Amy even more.. Don't fvcking worry because as dumb as John is, he will eventually figure it out.. Even if becomes too late for him.. But in the end you will get the phone call from him, I'm sorry I should have listened, I should have seen this.. And then you can tell fvck you as well.. 

You're a young woman.. Use those powers..

Look in the end who the fvck wants to be second.. No one.. There are many men who would be happy to make you first.. Remove the blinders..

If he loves her there is NOTHING you can do about it... You can't make it go away.. It seems clear to me that she has something for him too with some of the stuff I read.. You're just trying to fight the impossible.. My therapist told me and I will tell you.. 

You cannot make a squirrel a cat.. 

You cannot change this.. He can only change this.. IF he wants to.. He might NOT be willing to do this for you.. You need to accept this.. It's hard and it really SUCKS... Trust me been there, done that with the Ex wife and the Ex GF.. 

Again read back at my thread and see how many here told me to get rid of my GF.. Many if not all.. All my friends did and I have to say I am fortunate to have Many, many friends.. Even my mom said it, nicely.. Took me a year and a half to figure it out and a lot of heartache...

Smartly and decisively reverse the tables and see what happens..


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## PieOhMy

You don't think I'll be opening a can of worms by doing this? If I go out and hang out with guy friends. I don't even have guy friends. Well, maybe one. But he's states away. And the other, I rarely see and never talk to anymore, because he hit on me once before I was married and my H didn't like him because of that. And the only reason I still have any tie to him because he's an old family friend, I've known him since I was 2.


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## PieOhMy

But he's a good friend. I could still call him and I know he'd meet up with me.


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## PieOhMy

But I can't help but feel like that would undo all the work we've been doing in therapy. ??


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## farsidejunky

The other option is to be patient, which seems to be a struggle for you, and allow it to play out.


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## turnera

Pie, please stop being so literal. Throw away all the BULLSHYTE and look at what we're really saying. We're not really saying go flirt in front of him. We're not saying to tell him go run to Amy.

We are saying you can keep FIGHTING this bullshyte, bit by bit, tit for tat, step by step, affront for affront, until you guys HATE EACH OTHER'S GUTS so badly there is no choice but to divorce...

Or you can just say "Look. I WANT you, but I don't NEED you. I LOVE you, but I'll walk away from you...if you and I can't get on the same page about what a marriage should be. Either get ALL IN on this marriage and, together, remove all the CRAP we're dealing with, or this just isn't worth it to me any more."

And we are trying to gently tell you...YOU DON'T NEED HIM.

You may THINK you do. But you're only 26. One year older than my daughter. Who just celebrated her one-year anniversary with her boyfriend, who won't consider moving in with him for at LEAST another year, and won't consider marrying him for another year or two after that, and ONLY after she gets her Masters in two years at the earliest. And even then, she won't be having kids til she's at least 28 or 29. And then she has to go on and get her Ph.D.

See how her life does NOT revolve around her man?

That's the kind of parity you should be looking for in your life. You are moaning and groaning and wringing your hands and contemplating and maneuvering and manipulating....for what?

To KEEP a man who's not giving you 100% of his commitment.

Look, I'm not telling you to divorce him. He obviously loves you. But he has issues in being able to see that you need to come first. And we can't tell, from out here, if he's going to ever be capable of putting you first. He has a LOT of demons.

And that's fine, if you love him. But you're starting to sound more and more like a big ol' codependent MESS.

Like you can't make a single decision that doesn't involve ENSURING that he stays in your life. And that's not healthy. Or beneficial for either of you. 

Until you can look at your marriage objectively and say "I WANT this, but I don't NEED it, and if it doesn't benefit ME as much as it benefits HIM, I have to walk away," then you are holding yourself hostage to a DREAM of what marriage is supposed to be and ignoring what your marriage IS.

One day, you're going to hit that place. That place where you wake up and say to yourself 'this sucks. I deserve more. And if he won't give it to me, I'm going to go find it.'

Only then will you have POWER. The power to say "I matter, too."

If you were there now, you COULD go to him tomorrow night, ask for his phone, take it if you must, tell him to text Amy, and if he refuses, tell him "No? Then I'm leaving."

Because you'd know that YOU matter as much as HE does. You'd know that your real happiness is more important than your pretend version of a marriage.

Not sure you're there yet.


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## PieOhMy

Okay. I need to think about some things.


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## Blossom Leigh

I would ask your H "clarify for me, are we sending our joint message to these current messages or to the next one that comes?"


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## turnera

The only problem with that is that it gives HIM the control over the situation - all HE has to do then is never TELL Pie if Amy ever contacts him again. My IC would make that a big no-no.


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## PieOhMy

I see what you're saying, Tunera.


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## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> The only problem with that is that it gives HIM the control over the situation - all HE has to do then is never TELL Pie if Amy ever contacts him again. My IC would make that a big no-no.


Maybe, but if trust is being built....


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## zillard

turnera said:


> The only problem with that is that it gives HIM the control over the situation - all HE has to do then is never TELL Pie if Amy ever contacts him again. My IC would make that a big no-no.





Blossom Leigh said:


> Maybe, but if trust is being built....


He certainly could do that. With or without saying that. He could also respond on his own and then inform pie. Saying that reinforces that pie expects it be handled together. And giving him some control over it is likely a good step for pie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

I think that one is a gut call, but understand it has its risks and be ready to take back control if he fails to support the team through honesty.


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## PieOhMy

This is what I'm gonna do. The next time I have a good opportunity, and it's just my H and I, whether it's tonight or tomorrow, I'm going to tell him, "I'm ready to send our message to Amy now." And see how he responds. If I get anything besides sending her the message at that time, I am going to say, "Well I see I am not your priority. And I am done being second. I feel it's time for me to start planning my future without you." And walk away. If he follows or try to start a fight, I am going to ignore him. And I have to promise myself to not take any of his bait. Stay strong, and only keep to "I feel..." Maybe even leave the house and go for a drive if he makes it worst. And then following, I will start by spending less time on him and with him. Period.


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## zillard

The boundary text is something you both agreed to do, together. 

Him "not feeling like it right now" is nothing more than a lame excuse. That would be his actions not matching his words. It's a text. Will only take a couple minutes. 

Not OK. 

But if you say you will start planning your future without him, then you need to be fully prepared and willing to do that. As in divorce. 

Not go for a drive to "get" him to come around. 

That would be manipulation. Your actions not matching your words.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Blossom Leigh said:


> I think that one is a gut call, but understand it has its risks and be ready to take back control if he fails to support the team through honesty.


I have such a problem with this because it is the single worst thing about my husband. He won't let me fix house things, cos he knows how to do it all, I'll do it wrong, and we shouldn't pay someone else for something HE knows how to do. So I do nothing and wait. And wait. And wait. Our last house, he was going to get the carpet stretched, so I waited. For 8 years. It got so bad I couldn't invite people over, it was so embarrassing. This house's toilet broke and he bought a new one. Which sat next to the broken one. For two years. It ONLY got done when I did what my IC said to do, and gathered the tools and told him I was going into the bathroom to fix it, and of course he took over and did it.

Finances, bills, legal things...EVERYthing is something HE says he will handle...and doesn't. His last job, he left with the guy owing him $30,000, and DH said he would take care of it. He didn't. Now the statute of limitations is up and we lost $30,000. THIS job he got laid off from on April 1, they also owe him more than $30,000 and kept saying they'd sit down with him to straighten it out. Of course, he has never taken care of THAT, either.

So telling her to trust him, when he clearly WON'T stand up to people, even his own family, is a disaster in the making. If anything, she should say "I want to trust you that you'll protect me in this, so I'm going to wait two weeks for you to take the initiative, and if you don't, I'm going to take care of it myself."


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## turnera

zillard said:


> The boundary text is something you both agreed to do, together.
> 
> Him "not feeling like it right now" is nothing more than a lame excuse. That would be his actions not matching his words. It's a text. Will only take a couple minutes.
> 
> Not OK.
> 
> But if you say you will start planning your future without him, then you need to be fully prepared and willing to do that. As in divorce.
> 
> Not go for a drive to "get" him to come around.
> 
> That would be manipulation. Your actions not matching your words.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah. Like I said, you have to be willing to actually DO it, so don't say this if you aren't really ready to give up.

That said, 'planning a future without him' can take days, weeks, or years. If I said that to my H, I'd mean that, maybe next summer, I'll have my ducks in a row and move out.

Just make sure you aren't saying it to get a reaction. Don't say it if you don't mean it, that you WON'T stay with him if he won't work past his demons, his fears, and put you first. Only you know when or if that happens. Don't do it just because we say so.


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## PieOhMy

What does take care of it myself mean? Or do you mean as walking away from him. And I'm ready to do this. Like I said though, I am only going to do this at the opportune moment. I don't want him to feel like I'm falling him into a corner by doing it when friends or family is around since it is a holiday weekend for us starting tonight.


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## turnera

I'd wait til next week. Odds are good Amy's going to text him again before then so you'll have a good opportunity.

Take care of it yourself means that if he won't send a joint message, you'll take control of the situation and text her yourself.

Or else just tell him you're done.


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## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> I have such a problem with this because it is the single worst thing about my husband. He won't let me fix house things, cos he knows how to do it all, I'll do it wrong, and we shouldn't pay someone else for something HE knows how to do. So I do nothing and wait. And wait. And wait. Our last house, he was going to get the carpet stretched, so I waited. For 8 years. It got so bad I couldn't invite people over, it was so embarrassing. This house's toilet broke and he bought a new one. Which sat next to the broken one. For two years. It ONLY got done when I did what my IC said to do, and gathered the tools and told him I was going into the bathroom to fix it, and of course he took over and did it.
> 
> Finances, bills, legal things...EVERYthing is something HE says he will handle...and doesn't. His last job, he left with the guy owing him $30,000, and DH said he would take care of it. He didn't. Now the statute of limitations is up and we lost $30,000. THIS job he got laid off from on April 1, they also owe him more than $30,000 and kept saying they'd sit down with him to straighten it out. Of course, he has never taken care of THAT, either.
> 
> So telling her to trust him, when he clearly WON'T stand up to people, even his own family, is a disaster in the making. If anything, she should say "I want to trust you that you'll protect me in this, so I'm going to wait two weeks for you to take the initiative, and if you don't, I'm going to take care of it myself."


TOTALLY agree that if she offers trust she absolutely must offer it with a VERY short timeframe and be immediately prepared to act in the event he doesn't step up. Right there with you T. The only reason I suggested it was he has been offering some things that are trustworthy in recent times and its good to encourage that and open space for it, but NOT at the expense of backing up. It has to be strategic, well planned and executed without hesitation.  Was interested in striking a balance...


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## turnera

Agreed.

I also want to remind you, Pie, to keep up the praise and good feelings. Don't make this a war. Make this a 'I love you and want you, but this is crushing me' thing.


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## PieOhMy

I'm going to wait until after the holiday. I'm going to shoot for Sunday night.


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## PieOhMy

Well last night he brought up how he wants to buy stocks. He did this in the middle of a movie. And I said, "Okay. Well when we talk about our finances, then we should see what our options are. I am trying my best not to push you and I am trusting that you will come to me -soon, when you're ready to talk about finances as well as other things we've recently discussed doing" and I looked right at him, and he said okay. And that was it. And we continued watching the movie.


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## Blossom Leigh

Too indirect. But at least yall are talking.


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## PieOhMy

I feel like I kind of ruined my chance to bring Amy up on Sunday. Now that I just said "I'm trusting him."


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## Blossom Leigh

No, as long as you've got a mouth with a voice, its never a lost cause. You always have the chance to readdress something.

When it comes to boundaries and teamwork, I don't hint at them. I choose clear direct communication. A leading question is even appropriate here. Since he expressed a desire for teamwork, when Sunday comes, "Babe, what time today are you wanting to send that text together to Amy?" If he balks or renigs then thats a different situation, but otherwise, take him at his word that he was going to fix this and be more confident and direct about it. If he says I dont know, then say, "Well, I've got so and so at noon and so and so at 4, how about 2:30?"


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## PieOhMy

Lol thank you for that boost. I will give it a shot on Sunday. Maybe I'll be lucky and he'll bring it up on his own. I won't hold my breath on it though.


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## PieOhMy

I know this is kind of random, but if anyone has anything motivational, like stories or quotes or anything, to help me gain the strength to walk away from my H, please share!

Tonight he embarrassed me in front of all our friends and I feel like I'm almost there.


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## farsidejunky

Did you hold him to task?

"I am not okay with you deliberately embarrassing me in front of our friends."

Teach him how you want to be treated.


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## PieOhMy

No, our friends were around. And on the drive home he and I didn't speak. Honestly, I was tired and didn't want a fight so late at night. But he knows what he did. Which is why he didn't bother saying anything to me on the ride home. And I just was tired.


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## PieOhMy

I will say something to him tomorrow.


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## farsidejunky

Next time do it on the spot. Exactly what I wrote. It has the feel of a "record scratch" moment from a movie when the music stops and all eyes are now on him. 

He will either be humble or be an @ss, but that will also tell you where his head is at.


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## turnera

Motivational...

Make a list. Pros and cons - things he's done to make you happy, ways he's hurt you. Be brutally honest; and if any of the things he's done to hurt you are because of what YOU did, point that out. Include frequency.

If you see the list tipping over to the cons, let him know next MC session.


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## PieOhMy

Thank you. Working up the nerve to tell him I'm ready for us to send Amy that message today...Lol.


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## PieOhMy

I initiated. He didn't put up a fight. He figured out what he wanted to say, on his own. And then showed me, he sent it, that was it. We haven't heard back from her.


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## PieOhMy

Didn't mean to put it twice. Let me know what you think. I told him thank you, and gave him a kiss. Day went back to normal. So far...Lol.


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## turnera

Looks good to me. Good work.


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## PieOhMy

Obviously not good at keeping things anonymous lol. Tried to delete it. Not working.


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## turnera

You can PM a mod to ask them to remove it.


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## PieOhMy

Okay. Sent.


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## PieOhMy

Thank you.


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## PieOhMy

For when it's deleted, this is what my H sent to Amy: 

" Hey, congratulations on the baby. And also please congratulate John for me. I had sent him a msg a wile ago about needing some time from you guys so that my wife and I can figure some stuff out about us. I would appreciate it if you could respect my boundaries right now and stop meseging me. Thank you"

She never responded. I'm hoping she won't. Lol.


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## PieOhMy

And this was the conversation leading up to it:

Me: I'm ready for us to send the message to Amy now.
H: Oh yeah?
Me: Yup. (Smiled)
H: Alright, let's go home and do it. I'm tired.
...ten minutes later at home...
Me: (I look at home. Then look at the phone. And smile, and then do it again)
H: Alright, alright. 
H: Honestly, I'd rather wait and see if she sends another and if so, then text her. 
Me: I told myself that like the text messages ago. I hear that is what you want, but what I need is for you to get the message across. So how can we meet half way?
H: Send half a message (joking)
Me: I told you my idea of what to say. But I don't want to keep giving you ideas because I don't want you to resent me later for it. However, I don't think there's any need to be rude, but I dint think it needs to be sugarcoated.
H: I'm going to text it on my own. 
Me: Well we agreed to do it together.
H: I'll show you the text before I send it.
Me: Okay. But can we please do this today? I'd hate to see this dragged out again.
H: Yeah. I'm gonna figure out what I want to say now.

So I stayed with him in the room but didn't watch him or anything. And then he showed me. I said it sounded great. And he sent it. That was it.


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## Blossom Leigh

Did you see him hit send?


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## PieOhMy

Yup


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## PieOhMy

I told my H that we need to celebrate for being able to handle a situation TOGETHER without arguing or avoiding the situation. And I kissed him and told him I love you and thank you. And it was just nice. 

Amy didn't text back. As far as I know. And I'm going to give my H the benefit of the doubt that he will tell me if she does. I'm resisting the urge to look at his messages, so if anything, later in the week I'll ask if he's heard from her. But then again, the closer to my H I feel, the less I want to look at his messages. So maybe that's why it feels a little easier right now.

As for Amy, I'm happy she didn't respond. Yes, it would have been nice to hear some kind of acknowledgement or something showing some empathy like, "I understand and good luck." But she's probably pissed right now. Whatever. F*ck her. At least John told my H he understood and what not.


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## PieOhMy

And now today he asked about sending money to his parents again. I told him that since we never discussed our finances and never came to an agreement as to what we're going to do, that we shouldn't take any action until we do so. I also told him that we are behind on bills now from the last payment we sent them and are saving up for a small vacation in August. I told him we don't have the money to send and that when he's ready to talk about it, let me know. But as of now, I've been leaving no "fun money" to put away for vacation and catch up with bills. Last week we got our 2nd overdraft fee because there was not enough in checking, again.


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## turnera

Excellent response. 

And there should be NO money sent unless you two have at least $1000 saved up to avoid overdrafts.

You should look up Dave Ramsey and print out some of his stuff to talk to your H about. The $1000 idea is from his stuff.


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## Blossom Leigh

Yep, my H and I are doing cash envelopes and it is working like a charm.


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## PieOhMy

And you guys were right, communicating like this is becoming easier. It felt like a science before. 

Cash envelopes?

I'll have to look him up.


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## turnera

I use the envelope system, too. It really works because you really pay attention to what you're spending on what. And you give yourself X dollars for each expense, in that envelope, and you spend it, until the next paycheck. When you spend it, no more money for that expense.

The Envelope System Explained! - daveramsey.com


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## Plan 9 from OS

Brief comment wrt to money. Dave Ramsey has an effective system for budgeting your money and for using the "debt snowball". Conventional wisdom says to pay the highest interest debt off first and go after the lower rates later. However, debt snowball IMHO is better because it allows you to free up extra cash quickly. 

Quick example: You have a $10K in CC debt at 17%, $2K in a car loan at 6% and $1.5K on a 2 year same as cash appliance bill. Debt snowball takes the loan you can pay off the quickest, i.e. the $1500 loan that is zero interest, then take the money you would use to pay that bill to be added to the money you send for the $2K car loan AND then take all the money freed up by paying these small bills off and throwing it at the $10K bill. We're debt free except for our mortgage, which is now under $80K. House should be paid off completely before I turn 50. 

Do not, I repeat, DO NOT utilize Dave Ramsey for investing. If you seriously want to start a retirement account, talk to a professional who is most interested in being paid for performance as opposed to getting paid for transactions costs and getting bonuses for getting yo u into front end loaded funds. Dave suggests ROTH IRA's, and that's probably all you should take from his advice on investing. If you prefer to go it alone when it comes to investing, I would STRONGLY look into the no load mutual funds by the big names like Vanguard, Fidelity, T. Rowe Price, etc. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mutual-fund_families_in_the_United_States

Good comprehensive list of companies to research. If you want to buy an investment and forget about it - go for a Target Date Retirement Fund or ETF. 

Good luck, sorry for the thread jack.


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## IDon'tKnowAnymore

No... you're not being ridiculous, you're not overthinking it, and I'm sorry to say this, but your husband is behaving like an a*hole.
It doesn't matter what the context of the cuddling is... or whatever he was doing. The point is that you made your feelings clear, and he is not honoring them. 
You are not being unreasonable. And he is being disrespectful, and totally inappropriate. He needs to wake up and smell the coffee.
Has he always been such a selfish cad?


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## turnera

For investing, I recommend getting an Edward Jones account (unless you have a TON of money, in which case you get a real financial specialist agency to take care of your money). I have THE most amazing representative ever. He even calls me on my birthday every year.


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## PieOhMy

I have a Fidelity and ICMA account already. My mom started it for me when I was younger...<3. And we pay off the full balance of all our smaller credit cards right now. Other big accounts aren't paid off just yet, like for the cars. But the trouble I have with my H is getting him to see that we don't have enough money to send hundreds to his parents, at least not all the time. Ever since he got a credit card, he uses the credit card to lean on when he sends money to his parents. Any suggestions? I put a limit on the one that has both our names, so he and I can't use it so much. But he still has another one he leans on a lot. And that's only in his name.


----------



## PieOhMy

And IDontKnowAnymore, yes, I've learned from the past years that he's pretty selfish although he loves to call me selfish. It's always his back up argument. And then he follows it with what I call a "freedom speech" lol. Which usually goes something like "I'm going to do whatever I want, whether you like it or not...etc." I'm working on my communication and urgency to fix things in IC. We're also in MC now too. Going on to 8 sessions.


----------



## PieOhMy

Plan 9 and Turnera, thanks for all the input. I know I have a 401k and IRA already set up. What are your suggestions with investing in stocks?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

My heaviest investing is in real estate because it is my background. As soon as I get my hands on my liquid retirement I'm buying rental houses with it. I like tangible cash producing assets  We have three now, my current retirement can buy three more with cash and I'm studying flipping right now to buy the rest.


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## turnera

Stocks are ok if you're in your 20s or 30s and have time to recover before retirement if a crash occurs. I, too, prefer investing in property. I will also be flipping/renting houses if I start getting liquid assets.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> Stocks are ok if you're in your 20s or 30s and have time to recover before retirement if a crash occurs. I, too, prefer investing in property. I will also be flipping/renting houses if I start getting liquid assets.


Well Girl... Texas and Alabama are both great markets. Let me know if you ever want to team up. Check out BiggerPockets: The Real Estate Investing Social Network to study while you are waiting. I got J. Scott's books on flipping... :nerd:

While over at biggerpockets I am finding out that my first real estate rental deal was a freakin' home run! But flipping is a totally different animal so I will study deep on this one.

/tj


----------



## PieOhMy

Had our session last night. Brought up positives about our weekend about our messaging Amy, together. And how nice it was. Brought up how I am waiting to talk about finances. That led to my H talking about his parents again. Most of the session was about that. The MC pointed out that I need to take into account that my H has a hard time opening up to me because of our past and that my H opens up very well in MC, so to keep that in mind. I told him I understood, and I have for a very long time been trying to be supportive and more positive, and I can't help but feel my H is long overdue with opening up with me, but I am doing my best to be patient. I also said that I feel like he sometimes has these illusions that I am this terrible mastermind villain out to get him just because I tell him that we do not have the money to send or because I tell him about overdrafts. And I say these things gently and learned to only tell him once about them, when they happen, and not to repeat them in order to not seem as though I'm pushing him. But he still gets defensive. Or starts avoiding the conversation. That it's been 4 weeks. He said that he feels like I insist on there being all these rules that if their broken, all h*ll will break loose. I told him that they're boundaries that I wish he'd reinforce to protect our finances and our goals for future. 

As for the Amy thing, I didnt care to go on much about that. She never responded back, of course. And the therapist mentioned how it will be good if we can handle situations such as this together, making it so that nothing really comes as a threat. I told him how her actions don't make me feel any better about pursuing the friendship, again. He asked me if I wanted them in my life, and I said, "No." So I hope H heard that one lol. 

I also had my IC session, and she said that it sounds like my H getting angry and saying the things he does is almost him getting angry at his own mother and projecting all those feelings onto me because he always fears I'm out to undermine him. 

It was all very interesting. She commended me for not taking his bait in recent attempts to argue and not pushing subjects with him.


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## turnera

I was just going to say that his anger at you is his constipation about his feelings about his mom ordering him around. BTDT. I've been dealing with the exact same thing with my H. His mom ALWAYS wanted more, more, more. She left her husband and went straight to our house and moved in. Never even asked.

So whenever I'd ask for something, he would not only balk at it, he'd look me straight in the face, say NOTHING, and either go lie down on the couch and go to sleep, or go work on something ELSE, just so I would see that I couldn't boss him around. I even joked with him that I should ask for something I DON'T want done, because then I'd have better odds that what I really wanted would get done, as one of his 'anti-jobs.'

And you already know he has HUGE issues with his parents. He's not afraid of you. He IS afraid of them. So guess who gets stonewalled? You. I'm not saying that so you can be mad at him. That's just the dynamics he grew up with; not something he can change without lots of therapy. I'm saying to try to understand how HARD it is for him to deal with this stuff AND know it's making you unhappy.


----------



## PieOhMy

I'm just trying not to say much. Unless it's in direct relation to me and very personal to me. I only say anything in MC. A rule I'm doing my best to follow. Sometimes I'm mad and frustrated, especially when he comes to me about sending them money, again. But I said what I said, left it at that. IT IS becoming easier to restrain myself.

However, this Saturday morning he just blew up on me. And when he attacks me like that, especially so suddenly, ten minutes after I wake up, and I just felt so cornered and just got upset. I kept "okay"ing him because I didn't even know what to say. At one point I told him that I'm feeling very anxious and that I need him to stop and just try to be loving, that I felt like I was going to have an anxiety attack. And he just kept yelling and pushing and I felt so cornered because he wouldn't let me walk away because he was now concerned for my mental health and I he kept going on about "how I managed to make this morning all about me." 

I eventually managed to go to another room, actually had to take a Xanax. (Btw, love Xanax but try not to use it unless I really, really need it. It's prescribed to me "as needed" and I'm not on any daily regimen so when I do take it, it works very effectively). He calmed down and came over later and was comforting. He told me not to expect him to pull a 180 when he's mad. I said that I know, and I asked him if he feels he can be there for me when I have these attacks. He said sometimes, and I told him that I will look for another route to take because the last thing I want to be is a burden to him or have him resenting me more. Said our love yous and made peace with that. Didn't resolve our issues with the arguments. One was he was mad that I was hurt by him being rude to me in front of our friends the previous night, and because I asked that his friend not work on my car that day because it was nice out and wanted it for the 4th of July (I have a Wrangler, top down weather!).


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## turnera

Did he APOLOGIZE? This was about his SHAME at how HE acted. So he threw it onto YOU. You know that, right? 

Did you talk about that in your MC? Not letting you leave a room is ABUSE.


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## PieOhMy

Oh, and he was mad that I asked him to wear a jacket when riding his motorcycle. 

Sunday morning went much better. And we both rode our bikes to his shop. I asked him about the jacket again. He got defensive and said not to start. I asked him if he wants me to wear a jacket. He said yes, that it's different because I'm not as good of a rider as him. I told him that excuse has run it's race and I'm done with it. He put on a jacket. I put on mine. That was that.


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## PieOhMy

What does BTDT mean?


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## PieOhMy

No, I didnt even get there. But I did with my IC. She said exactly what you're saying about how he was ashamed of how he acted the previous night. And she does think he was concerned for me but that from now on instead of going into a state of vulnerability and just saying okay, to get out of the situation and that we may need to consider coming up with a code word to signify that he needs to leave me alone and we walk away for ten minutes.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

been there done that



Darlin... this is where I am nervous for you. He doesn't respond to your no's and he has some hallmark abuse behaviors that are very concerning when he is upset and you cowering makes me upset for you. How long did it take for you to get to another room?


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## PieOhMy

And no, he never apologizes for anything. If he does, it's rare. He says it's because he's not sorry for what he does. He doesn't think there's anything wrong with it. Like when he brought up the thing about me being upset about him embarrassing me in front of his friends, in the midst of his yelling at me he said "don't expect an apology, I'm not going to say I'm sorry."


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## zillard

turnera said:


> Did he APOLOGIZE? This was about his SHAME at how HE acted. So he threw it onto YOU. You know that, right?
> 
> Did you talk about that in your MC? Not letting you leave a room is ABUSE.


Yep! 

He's mad at you because your feelings were hurt? Nope.

He's getting angry with you for "making" him feel bad for what he did. That's guilt. It's easier than remorse. If it's your fault, he can temporarily feel better about himself. If you accept that, you allow him to Blameshift. And you won't get an apology. If you don't, it may fuel his anger for a bit, but allows him to choose to own his own sh!t.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> And no, he never apologizes for anything. If he does, it's rare. He says it's because he's not sorry for what he does. He doesn't think there's anything wrong with it. Like when he brought up the thing about me being upset about him embarrassing me in front of his friends, in the midst of his yelling at me he said "don't expect an apology, I'm not going to say I'm sorry."


"I'm not OK with that."

Just like your xanax, use as needed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

I have a project for you. Read this book today. Let us know what think when you finish.
FREE - Lundy Bancroft's "Why Does He Do That" Read Online


----------



## PieOhMy

Just started. Probably won't be able to finish it tonight, pretty busy today. 

And so my H was acting like that because he felt guilty?? Geez.


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## turnera

More like shame. He KNEW he was being an ass. But when people are around other people whom they want to impress...all bets are off. YOU are the safe one. The one he can treat poorly and who won't go anywhere. Everyone else? He has to keep getting their approval, so they stay in his life.

It sucks, but that's human nature. 

So, yeah, he knew it was wrong, but it was important to him to look good at your expense. But once you were back home, it hits him about how badly he acted. And he KNEW you were either going to read him the riot act, or treat him bad for what he did - so he pre-empted you by taking the offensive. Again, human nature. Doesn't make what he did right, just to be expected.


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## PieOhMy

Oof. Yeah, I didnt even bring it up that morning. I asked him if he wanted me to help him with his bike, and he had the worst attitude and I asked what was wrong, and he just let me have it.


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## turnera

Yes, but he expected it.


----------



## PieOhMy

Ugh.


----------



## PieOhMy

Only 30 pages in. But seeing some similarities. Actually, I see some of the similarities in how I used to act as well. Not now though, not for the past 2 years. But I see a lot of similarities in him now. For what seems forever.


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## turnera

Knowledge is power. If you know what you're dealing with, you can look for the right solutions.


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## PieOhMy

I believe this very much. I just hope he's not one of the guys that won't ever change.


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## PieOhMy

I feel like my husband is abusive. But I think he can change. But he does sometimes lie in therapy. Which I hate. Or like in the book, his side of the story is so much different from mine. Example: Me: Amy won't stop messaging my H, even though we asked for space and my H stopped responding. H: We're just friends, they seem to have grown up, she just doesn't want me to forget about them -they are married and have a baby together.

Still reading. Been pretty busy this week.


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## turnera

When it comes to situations like that, here is how you proceed:

FACTS.

DO NOT LISTEN to what he says.

Discuss ONLY the facts.

Facts:
He responds to her.
He tells you he isn't.

And so on.


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## synthetic

> Me: Amy won't stop messaging my H, even though we asked for space and my H stopped responding.


Is this true? I thought she never responded back?


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## PieOhMy

She never responded back to the text when he told her to stop messaging. I'm talking about what was said in the MC session before we sent that message.


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## PieOhMy

When he had only told John so far.


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## synthetic

Put it behind you for now. 

I don't find your husband abusive in his response. Abuse has a different meaning.


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## Blossom Leigh

synthetic said:


> Put it behind you for now.
> 
> I don't find your husband abusive in his response. *Abuse has a different meaning.*


Can you expand on that Synth?

I am more nervous for her than you or T, mainly because he skirts so close to hitting her, which means a lot of abuse is happening just short of a punch.

So clarifying our definitions of abuse is a good exercise and where we see him falling on the continuum.


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## turnera

FTR, I am not saying he's abusive, although not letting her leave a room is a BIG indicator. I suggested the book so she could read it and see DIRECTLY whether he fits the categories. I read it, thinking my H might be abusive, and he didn't fit it closely enough, so I redirected my efforts to something that was more effective when dealing with him. Only Pie will know once she finishes reading it.


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## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> FTR, I am not saying he's abusive, although not letting her leave a room is a BIG indicator. I suggested the book so she could read it and see DIRECTLY whether he fits the categories. I read it, thinking my H might be abusive, and he didn't fit it closely enough, so I redirected my efforts to something that was more effective when dealing with him. Only Pie will know once she finishes reading it.


And ramming his body into hers.... so read close and assess well because he definitely makes me nervous Pie.


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## synthetic

Blossom Leigh said:


> Can you expand on that Synth?
> 
> I am more nervous for her than you or T, mainly because he skirts so close to hitting her, which means a lot of abuse is happening just short of a punch.
> 
> So clarifying our definitions of abuse is a good exercise and where we see him falling on the continuum.


NO NO NO NO!

I was referring to his response in counseling which she mentioned right after saying "I feel my husband is abusive".

That's the part I dismissed as not abusive, not their fights.

As for their fights, well, I have no idea what gets said between them in anger. I'm sure it's completely abusive from both sides. That's what fights are. Abusive. If he comes close to hitting her, he should try removing himself from the situation, but again, we don't know PieOhMy's fighting tactics. They could be devastatingly provocative.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

synthetic said:


> NO NO NO NO!
> 
> I was referring to his response in counseling which she mentioned right after saying "I feel my husband is abusive".
> 
> That's the part I dismissed as not abusive, not their fights.
> 
> As for their fights, well, I have no idea what gets said between them in anger. I'm sure it's completely abusive from both sides. That's what fights are. Abusive. If he comes close to hitting her, he should try removing himself from the situation, but again, we don't know PieOhMy's fighting tactics. They could be devastatingly provocative.



Yes, they could be and I was glad to hear her self assessing the other day when she dug into the book. Thanks for clarifying!


----------



## PieOhMy

I can honestly say, yes, I was very provocative in fights. But after starting my own IC two years ago, I really cleaned up my act. Like I said, NOT PERFECT, as you can all see from my posts and comments, I never even knew about some of the ways of communicating with him when I actually thought I was doing better! Lol. I don't cuss, I don't use names, I don't mean to put him down, I don't raise my voice, I sometimes "Okay" him to exhaustion, etc. But now it's learning how to communicate in such a way that I am respecting myself without pushing buttons or trying to control the situation. I never knew I had so much patience. And I'm actually beginning to like being the "strong silent type."


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## PieOhMy

"Confidence is silent, insecurities are loud." Idk where that's from, but I remember hearing it a while back.


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## synthetic

All I know is I had an ex-wife who was insanely good at pressing the right buttons to make me go absolutely nuts. I could see myself ending up in jail many times, and I honestly didn't mind it at that moment. That was her power and my weakness. 

Despite having grown up now, I can't guarantee someone like her not being able to decode my vault yet again. People like her are truly capable of bringing the worst out of others. They are geniuses in some ways. Abusive geniuses. 

She did not cuss, she did not raise her voice, she did not directly name names and she did not directly put me down, but man... she was satan's very own private tutor. I have never seen anyone in her league.


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## turnera

That would explain why you tend to quickly assume the same 'tactics' to many of the women here.


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## synthetic

turnera said:


> That would explain why you tend to quickly assume the same 'tactics' to many of the women here.


I don't assume. I suspect and express my suspicion. Big difference. Even if it helps 1 in 1000, it's still a win.

Also, it doesn't have to be a replica of my own past experience. It could be a mild version of it and it's still wrong. I see it all around me. People simply provoking each other into illogical reactions.

It's just not nice and the eventual 'abusive' labels people put on each other is pretty much useless, because the root of the problem remains untouched.

I'm not saying that's PieOhMy's situation, but that's one possibility to consider.


----------



## PieOhMy

Well I know my H hates it when I ignore him, go silent, or walk away from him. That's usually what makes him go off the wall. And yet, that's usually my safest bet in order to make sure the fight doesn't go any farther. So, it's pretty hard to NOT push his buttons. And I usually do that stuff after I try to reason him or ask him to calm down, or say "I'm not going to talk to you when you're acting like this."


----------



## zillard

Better to say, "until THINGS calm down" instead of "you". 

IME
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AliceA

Some people may feel abandoned when their partner goes silent or walks away. It goes straight to the old brain with threat to survival. The irrational, yet still prevailing feeling that if your significant other abandons you, like a mother abandoning her baby, you will die.

So the question is, how do you leave a pointless and tiring argument without making your spouse feel abandoned? You have to find what works, but I think stating your intentions prior to going silent would help greatly:

"I don't feel like we're getting anywhere with this discussion right now so I'm going to take a break. I am going to go do something else for an hour/s and if we're both feeling more receptive to each other, we can revisit the issue then."

Something that says to them that you're not walking away and leaving things up in the air, you're not abandoning them. You want to resolve the issue, but you just need a break.

Instead of giving someone the silent treatment, I would physically remove myself from their presence. Being ignored is a terrible experience for anyone, better to just not be there at all imo.


----------



## PieOhMy

I've done that too. You name it, I've probably done it. I guess my task now is just to KEEP doing it.


----------



## AliceA

That's true. A big part of anything working is persistence and follow through. Take a child for example. If you make empty threats to a child, "if you do 'that' you are not getting 'this", but never actually follow through, they learn to ignore your threats. In reverse, if you say, "I will come back to you in an hour" but you don't initiate the discussion again, then the statement becomes meaningless.

Just like you can teach a child how to behave through meaning what you say and following through, you can teach also teach a spouse to believe that you will do as you say and they have no cause to despair/worry/anger. 

It all comes full circle to boundaries. A person can have clear boundaries and not even need to say them. Waters may get tested early on by either party, and when there's a very definite boundary there, no way to get through without breaking something i.e. the relationship, there is a comfort in knowing the space you are living in.

I think those sort of boundaries come with age. We're all fairly malleable when we're young. That's the way you started when you were first married, now your boundaries are firming up with age and experience. As your husband gets used to your space, and you to his, things will settle down.


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## AliceA

For an example with his actions during your argument, he doesn't yet know your boundaries because you haven't developed any. You're still processing how you feel about feeling physically threatened/trapped. Until such time as you develop a boundary, he's going to feel he can behave however he feels without any consequence.


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## PieOhMy

This is so true.


----------



## turnera

breeze said:


> Some people may feel abandoned when their partner goes silent or walks away. It goes straight to the old brain with threat to survival. The irrational, yet still prevailing feeling that if your significant other abandons you, like a mother abandoning her baby, you will die.
> 
> So the question is, how do you leave a pointless and tiring argument without making your spouse feel abandoned? You have to find what works, but I think stating your intentions prior to going silent would help greatly:
> 
> "I don't feel like we're getting anywhere with this discussion right now so I'm going to take a break. I am going to go do something else for an hour/s and if we're both feeling more receptive to each other, we can revisit the issue then."
> 
> Something that says to them that you're not walking away and leaving things up in the air, you're not abandoning them. You want to resolve the issue, but you just need a break.
> 
> Instead of giving someone the silent treatment, I would physically remove myself from their presence. Being ignored is a terrible experience for anyone, better to just not be there at all imo.


The bottom line is to say in a REGULAR discussion that you can't handle the anger or the tension any more, that it's not healthy, and that your IC has told you to remove yourself from the situation. Just say it as matter of fact. "Just so you know, as part of improving myself and our marriage, whenever tensions rise and voices rise, I'm going to leave the room until we can talk again without the yelling. So if you see me leaving the room, it's not a criticism of you, it's me protecting myself and my feelings, and giving our marriage a better chance."


----------



## AliceA

Just to add, my last post in no way means I am finding excuses for his behaviour. Personally I think it's despicable that he is trying to intimidate you. Even worse that he is succeeding and that you, I think as a direct link, are suffering anxiety. However, there is no way for any of us to change his behaviour, it's up to you to do what you have to do in order to change your circumstances.


----------



## PieOhMy

I can't say how much everyone's comments have meant. All of them. The negative, the positive, what I wanted to hear, what I didn't want to hear, all of it. I really think your insight, in conjunction with IC and MC, have really helped me start heading down a better path whether that ends up being with my H or without. 

I have several friends and family that are able to be supportive, but sometimes I'm not comfortable sharing things with them, sometimes I don't feel very supported by them or I just want unbiased opinions. 

I'm going to continue reading the book tonight. 

As of now, nothing back from Amy or those friends. I hope it stays that way. I can see now, that I will never have any interest in pursuing a friendship with any of them as long as Amy is around. And although we have not discussed finances yet, I've been doing what I need to do to catch us back up and make a safety net. Fortunately, my H has not been arguing with me about it or even really questioning it. I still want to have the talk about finances but am trying not to push it. And we have BOTH been cutting back on spending.


----------



## PieOhMy

Been very busy this past week. Haven't had a chance to finish the book. But have my IC and our MC session today. Feeling good about things this past week. H was in a really bad mood on Sunday, he didn't share exactly why but he said it had to do with his parents. I think they were asking for money again. Point is, H hasn't sent them any and he didn't take it out on me. And I haven't been pushing him to talk about it. I just keep putting it away into bills and savings.


----------



## turnera

If they're demanding money, and he isn't replying, his FEAR (of disappointing them) is kicking in big time. It's a scary thing! Be extra sensitive and compassionate for him for now, let him see you supporting him. Let him see you two are a team and can handle anything together.


----------



## PieOhMy

He wants to send money to them. I told him I that I don't feel that's a good idea right now because we having a weekend trip coming up next weekend and we still haven't put much back into bills and savings.


----------



## PieOhMy

And then he just went on to how upset his mother makes him and that he wants to send money so they will leave him alone. And I told him that I hope that's not the reason, and he went on to say that he doesn't feel bad for his parents, but for his little brother. I was very supportive and warm to him, I think I actually did a good job. Eventually he did his quiet thing, and I asked him if he wanted to stop talking about it and he said yes. So that was that. We didn't discuss the money again or come to any conclusion about that.


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## PieOhMy

Btw, this was AFTER therapy. Not in it.


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## PieOhMy

I really don't think we should be sending them any money. We have an off-roading trip next weekend that costs money, and nonetheless, we still never talked about out finances or conclude how we're going to handle sending money to his parents.


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## PieOhMy

I don't even know how we're going to pull off paying for the weekend trip.


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## PieOhMy

We haven't established more than $1000 in our account for bills. But we're almost there. And we still haven't reimbursed what we put out for our vacation in August. But I guess that's not as important, or at least that's how he'll see it.


----------



## PieOhMy

This is tough. Any suggestions?


----------



## PieOhMy

I know this sounds bad but I feel like telling him that if he wants to send money to his parents, then that's going to come from our "fun money," so he should consider what he wants to do these next couple of weekends depending on how much he wants to send his parents. But then he might lean on the credit cards. 

Sorry. I made a lot of posts. I'm thinking out loud.


----------



## PieOhMy

And I only said positive things when he was talking to me about his mom: "Well I truly believe she loves you and cares about you, maybe she doesn't know how to express it," "She took care of you and you're here now, so your parents must have done something right lol," "Maybe only talk about positive things with her, ignore the negative, and just positive things about you and your life, she should be happy for you." Of course he had something negative to say in response to everything I said but I ended it saying "I love you, can I give you a hug?" And he said yeah and it was nice!! And then I baked him chocolate chip cookies when we got home.


----------



## PieOhMy

I also asked him how he was feeling and how he felt towards his mom, what would he like to say to her. His answers were "She's such a ****ing b*tch! I just want to tell her to f*ck off! And that's it. I just want to cut her off completely." I didn't know how to respond to those except hold his hand and just say "Well I think you will figure out how to handle it when you're ready. I hate to see you so hurt. This will probably always be something you'll have to hear from your parents, but maybe you can figure out something to protect yourself a little better, so it doesn't bring you so down. I want you to be happy. I know that's easier said than done, but I know you'll figure it out."


----------



## turnera

You're doing really well. Basically, they're extorting money from him. And you know how that works...they NEVER stop asking for more money. This should be discussed in MC til you two come up with a solution.

As for the money, I'd say "I don't agree to send them any more money until we have our $1000 in emergency funds, we have enough to pay the next month's bills, and we've paid for our vacation. I do NOT agree to send them money if that means we have to use a credit card, because that means WE CAN'T AFFORD IT. If you want to tell them it is my fault, that's fine; I don't mind being the bad guy for now until we find a solution."


----------



## PieOhMy

My heart really goes out to him, and I do feel bad for his little brother, too. But we have no means to be supporting them. And I know if I say to him we can't afford it, he's going to ask about how we plan on affording the off-roading trip, and I would want to say that maybe we should reconsider going. And then I know he's going to blow up on me.


----------



## turnera

That's why I think this needs to be discussed in MC.


----------



## PieOhMy

Yup.


----------



## PieOhMy

Also, he brought up his brother in MC. How he wants to go hang out with his brother alone. I really don't understand where that came from cause he does hang out with his brother alone. Not all the time, but he does. 

A while ago, his brother decided that he couldn't be around us and still didn't approve of our relationship and we stopped talking to him for a while. After that, he saw his brother two times, alone. Then we made plans to do a double date. His brother suddenly decided to cancel the double date and ask my H to go out drinking with him on Saturday night. When my H asked me if I cared, I said yes. I told him that I really didn't want to get into the habit of his brother thinking that we don't come as a unit and that I would feel better if we hung out with him together more often. I also told him that I didn't like the idea of him going out to drink on a Saturday night and I asked why couldn't they do something during the day or go catch a movie or something. I really said this all calm. Of course my H was livid but he ended up sticking with the couples night. But of course he ended yelling at me about it later. I just never understood it because he hates drinking and going to bars, when I ask him to, he always says no. 

Anyways, that was a while back, but I think that's what he was referring to. But also, the first time around, when we tried to mend things with his brother after first telling him of our relationship, my H and I always saw him together. 

And so in MC, I told H that I don't see his brother as a friend of our marriage. And I turned and said this to my H, "I haven't said anything to you about this because I'm trying to be positive. But sometimes your brother makes me extremely uncomfortable because I catch him looking at me the way he did when we were together and sometimes I feel like he's just leaning a little too close to me. I could be completely wrong about this and it doesn't happen often, but I sometimes feel uncomfortable. The first time around when I told you that I felt this way, you got mad at me and didn't really acknowledge it. Nonetheless, the time you asked me to reach out to your brother so he knew everything was okay with all of us, he ended up telling me that the feeling is still there and that he always thinks about the good times and bad times we had, and that made me very uncomfortable. And when I told you, you just said "ok." Your brother was the first man to ever actually hit me and I can't help feeling that he kind of exposed me to physical abuse, the physical abuse I've seen in our relationship in the past. And after ending the relationship with your brother, he wouldn't let me go, he kept harassing me. I don't think you understand the walls I had to take down to try and salvage a relationship with my ex-boyfriend so I could attempt to build a relationship with him as my brother in law. And I just wish you'd appreciate what i have done on my part and in terms of compromising. Because 4 years ago, I would not have him in my life at all." My H's response to that was just that his brother is dramatic and emotional and that "you're not the only one that went through something." And I told him "I know and that I hear you. It's such a sensitive subject, I don't feel like you ever want to talk about it." He didn't say anything in response. And the session ended.


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## PieOhMy

If you look at my other original posts, you will see my concerns about my brother in law and what's happened with him during my marriage.


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## turnera

Man, his family issues are SO strong. Obviously, if he spent enough time with his brother, his brother's sour grapes would poison your marriage. They're Middle Eastern, right?


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## zillard

One EXCELLENT reason not to date two brothers. 

That situation will likely never be OK. 

Due to your choices. 

Sorry, pie, but you made that bed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

And now I must lay in it. But still don't feel I need to be disrespected by H because of it. Yes, Albanian.


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## PieOhMy

And it was in high school! I was 16 when I first met my BIL! Ugh...I was 18 when I ended it. I'm 26 now.


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## PieOhMy

Actually, his country is considered European but one of the only countries with a Muslim majority I think.


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## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> And now I must lay in it. But still don't feel I need to be disrespected by H because of it. Yes, Albanian.


You teach people how to treat you. If someone disrespects you and nothing happens to them for doing it, whose fault is that?


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## synthetic

You're much better off with your husband visiting and spending time alone with his brother than the two of you doing it as a unit.

This comes as a direct result of your own decision to date two brothers. It was an unwise choice, and this is the consequence. You will never have a normal relationship with your brother in law and your husband will never have a normal relationship with his brother. He made his bed too.

And your husband is right. Your don't see your BIL as a friend of your marriage, because, well, he's not! It goes against every man's biological fabric to be a friend to a marriage that involves his own previous sexual/romance partner.


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## PieOhMy

I told him I didn't think his brother would ever be a real friend of the marriage. I really don't care if he goes to see his brother alone, but there are some things I would just rather him not do with him or at least extend the invitation to me. My BIL is a very loud and aggressive person, especially when he drinks. Nonetheless, H always invites BIL to things that include me and/or our friends. And sometimes I have to ask him if we could do whatever it is by ourselves. Like our off-roading trips where you're stuck in the car with the same people all day. Or going to my Aunt's shore house. Or having a bonfire with our friends. Our friends don't like his brother very much but I never even told him that. So I do try to avoid bringing them together when alcohol may be involved.

But whether it was with his BIL or with a friend, I still would not support the partying or bar hopping late on Friday or Saturday nights. His brother is 30, and we're 26. Grow up. Sometimes I wish they'd just go fishing or something. But I'm not allowed to say that, or else H thinks I'm trying to control him by making a suggestion.


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## PieOhMy

However, H and I aren't big drinkers anyways, when we go out with friends we usually just have two drinks anyways.


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## Plan 9 from OS

synthetic said:


> You're much better off with your husband visiting and spending time alone with his brother than the two of you doing it as a unit.
> 
> *This comes as a direct result of your own decision to date two brothers. It was an unwise choice, and this is the consequence.* You will never have a normal relationship with your brother in law and your husband will never have a normal relationship with his brother. He made his bed too.
> 
> And your husband is right. Your don't see your BIL as a friend of your marriage, because, well, he's not! It goes against every man's biological fabric to be a friend to a marriage that involves his own previous sexual/romance partner.


I mentioned that earlier in the thread. Add in the fact that the younger brother was an abusive assh0le. So if you were a normal rational person and you spent 2 years in a relationship that was abusive, wouldn't your first instinct to be to completely remove yourself from the abusive boyfriend AND his entire family? 

This is why I was so direct with my comments earlier in the thread, Pie. The way you describe your interactions in this thread, it seems like you are doing your best to not set off the monster. IMHO, not only do you need to end this marriage, but you also need to move away from there so that you don't ever run into those people ever again.

Don't you realize that your husband and his brother are very similar people?


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## PieOhMy

I see some similarities but I also see a lot of differences. I hear you on ending my marriage, but I already put 4 years into this and I still very much love him. I'd like to see if it can get better with the MC. As I've said before, the MC is my last attempt.


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## PieOhMy

Went through paperwork yesterday. Found out that we have sent $16K to his parents in the past 3 years. Oof.


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## Plan 9 from OS

PieOhMy said:


> I see some similarities but I also see a lot of differences. I hear you on ending my marriage, but *I already put 4 years into this* and I still very much love him. I'd like to see if it can get better with the MC. As I've said before, the MC is my last attempt.


This is a fallacy. The 4 years would be a sunk cost. 

sunk-cost fallacy- The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com



> When one makes a hopeless investment, one sometimes reasons: I can’t stop now, otherwise what I’ve invested so far will be lost. This is true, of course, but irrelevant to whether one should continue to invest in the project. Everything one has invested is lost regardless. If there is no hope for success in the future from the investment, then the fact that one has already lost a bundle should lead one to the conclusion that the rational thing to do is to withdraw from the project.
> 
> To continue to invest in a hopeless project is irrational. Such behavior may be a pathetic attempt to delay having to face the consequences of one's poor judgment.]


Believe it or not, I'm a pro marriage person. However, when one or both spouses enter the marriage in an already damaged condition, the marriage is doomed from the start. I'm sorry, but I think both of you are damaged. Your H appears to have serious issues with socializing with others in a healthy manner, having few friends who generally use him. No surprise there, because he learned the concept of being used by his parents. Also, you say your H and your BIL are different. Sure, we're all different. But they share the same values. Your husband put his hands on you a number of times in the marriage plus restricted your movements forcefully, correct? Same parents, same upbringing, same results. 

And then there is you to consider. Your H is abusive. Let's not mince words here. His brother is abusive. You dated both. Why? It appears that your selection criteria for dating is damaged. Evidently, you had a hard upbringing in your own way and have brought that into the marriage. Both of you need to sort your problems first before you can be good marriage partners. The foundation of your marriage is seriously damaged. 

JMHO. Again, apologies if this is not what you want to hear, but I think you need to seriously consider this.


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## turnera

Personally, I would never spend a second minute with a person who hit me. Ever.


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## PieOhMy

It's okay.


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## PieOhMy

I need to hear it, good or bad.


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## lucy999

PieOhMy said:


> Went through paperwork yesterday. Found out that we have sent $16K to his parents in the past 3 years. Oof.


:surprise::surprise::surprise::surprise:

Holy crap. Welp, there's his car he wants. Or at least the lion's share of it.


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## AliceA

PieOhMy said:


> I see some similarities but I also see a lot of differences. I hear you on ending my marriage, but I already put 4 years into this and I still very much love him. I'd like to see if it can get better with the MC. As I've said before, the MC is my last attempt.


I understand the feeling of lost investment if you call it quits on a relationship after x years. I don't think that's the best way of looking at it though, regardless of which way it ends up.

The time you have spent learning and growing in your relationship is not time wasted. You admitted to behaving poorly yourself in times past and learning from your mistakes. This is valuable time.

If you don't succeed in making your marriage work, you can still appreciate that you are a better person because of this struggle. I spent 5 years in a long term relationship prior to meeting my husband. I don't see it as wasted time. I learned a great deal about myself and others, and the experience definitely helped me find someone with whom I was more compatible.

The time you spend together will help you both become more compatible with each other, or it will help you later in finding (and keeping) someone else. Either way, it's time well spent.


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## PieOhMy

That's true. That's very true. Thank you.


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## PieOhMy

H asked me to leave $250 in our "fun money" account so he can send his parents $250. I told him that I do not agree with it. That we cannot afford it. He said he's not going to let them starve. And so I told him that everytime he sends the fun money on them, he leans back on the credit cards to pay for the leisure activities he should have used the fun money for. And now our bills are high and I am still trying to reimburse what we took out of savings. He asked to not put as much into Savings, then. I told him that I would not do that. That he can use his spending money. He said he won't have any spending money because he's sending it to his parents. And I told him that's not my choice, that's his. I had also told him earlier in the convo that my credit score dropped 20 points because we've been utilizing our/my credit too much (from the Amex bills). And that I'm done with my credit card being hurt. That he should check how much he has left on HIS own credit cards. 

He decided to send $150. Better, but still not good, he's going to put us in debt, more so himself. 

We still haven't had a finance talk or decide on a budget or anything.


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## PieOhMy

I'm still waiting...


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## turnera

Good for you for standing up to him. You're getting better. Sounds like the 'real' discussion is coming soon.


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## AliceA

You need to have the financial meeting with your husband and stop finding reasons to put it off. You are both procrastinating imo, you because you're scared of his reaction to it, and him because he just doesn't want to know. If I try to be nice about scheduling a suitable time with DH to talk about something, it'll never happen. If I wait for a time when he's not doing anything else, grab whatever paperwork I need and say, "well, now is as good a time as any for us to go over xxxx", and just jump right in, then it happens.


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## PieOhMy

I was trying not to be the pushy wife I usually am. I guess that's what going to have to do. It will never happen if I don't.


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## PieOhMy

This morning when I was going through bills. I realized there was a bill that I didn't add in. We weren't going to have enough in the bills account to pay it. It would get processed Thursday and payday isn't until Friday. I called my H at work and asked him if he had a minute to talk. He said yeah. I told him the issue and he said he will ask to get his check Thursday instead. I said okay and said this: H
I really need you to put our bills and savings first. I need you to stop doing this. I NEED this. I told you yesterday that I didn't appreciate your urgency to send money to your parents when I told you I didn't agree with it and that I'm still trying to build up our bills account and reimburse our savings. It's so upsetting every time. It kills me.

After I said that he just said okay, seemed in a bad mood, and got off the phone.

I feel bad for him. But I'm still really hurt with this whole finance thing. I'm going to initiate the finance talk tomorrow, give him a day to cool, we're also pretty busy today, and so tomorrow it's just got to happen. I'm willing to send them money, but not all the time and definitely not when we can't afford it. And we cannot afford it. 

I hate to say this, but if we're short on money, it's going to be his credit card that will come last in my payment priority. I do not spend money on anything for myself. I use the cards for gas and groceries for the week. That is it. That was the original deal. But he does not. If he doesn't have enough money from fun money, he uses the credit cards. 

This is definitely a subject I'm bringing up in our next MC session.


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## turnera

I think you're handling it very well. Bringing it up right when you can't pay a bill is pretty clear. And putting his credit card last sounds right, too. Although your credit rating might take a hit, as they're the first to ding you.


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## Plan 9 from OS

From a finance standpoint, take a step back. From what I can gather with your situation and the fact that if you and your H were not being subsidized by your dad for a home, utilities and food(?), why in the fvck would you have any fun money? If I was your dad, I would throw the both of you out. How in the hell can you feel OK with your dad putting this money into you guys when you two turn around and send money to his parents, seem to spend a healthy sum of money on fun activities and then run up credit cards? 

If both of you are working and your shelter and utilities are paid for by your dad, then HOW can you be in debt or have so little to show for yourselves financially? Seriously, how the fvck does that happen???

As long as your dad lets you and your H live at his house, your husband will never learn. Honestly, the jury is still out on whether you are learning anything about being independent. Sorry, but a number of things you write about just seems wrong. 

Your husband is a loser - a genuine millstone around your neck.


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## PieOhMy

So do I just demand from my H to put more money in or do I wait patiently for him to learn or do I just move out myself so that H follows? I'm lost here. I want to give him an ultimatum but I know that won't go over well.


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## turnera

The way my IC explained it (we are WAY more in debt than you are), I have to make choices that protect the family as a whole. I explain to him what I think he needs to do to achieve that, but if he doesn't agree, he's free to come up with a different solution. But in the end, if he doesn't DO anything, I have to make it clear to him that I WILL be making changes, that I want him to go along for the ride and pitch in his ideas and opinions, but if he just sits back and chooses to do nothing, it will be ME making the decisions. 

In your case, that would mean taking the money away from him so he can't take it and give it to his parents. Now, he also then may start hiding money. 

Bottom line is the communication. This is a must for MC because we all know the reason he's doing this is that he fears their condemnation, so if you can get the conversation turned around in MC to where you two are a TEAM, solving this together, and also helping him learn that he CAN stand up to his parents and not die - in his primal brain, that's the kind of fear he's feeling - and that you can find other solutions together, then you'll have a chance.

Like, what do they do with all the money you send? Just blow it on food or stuff? Maybe you could send them something they could use to set up a business instead, so they start EARNING money. Or maybe you can work out an arrangement with his brother so that HE is ALSO helping.


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## PieOhMy

H just called from work and invited me to stop by cause the guys there are grilling hot dogs and hamburgers (free food! Lol). He also said this:

H: I get what you're saying about the money and I understand, I do, just hang in there a little, please.
Me: My heart really goes out to you, it does, I can't even imagine the pressure you're feeling. But this is our lives and our future, money is a big part of it. I'm at the point that I feel if you aren't going to do something about it, then I will have to start protecting our money on my own. I do not want to reach that point. I want to do this together. I love you and I want to be with you. I just can't stand by and do nothing, though. I think we need to bring this up in our next MC session. We really need to figure this out. I really appreciate you saying this to me. I really do. I'll see you soon for lunch.

That was it, said our love yous and got off the phone. 

I don't know what the hang on means, maybe he's planning on cutting his parents off? Wishful thinking...


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## PieOhMy

And when I say cutting off, I mean cutting them off financially.


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## Plan 9 from OS

PieOhMy said:


> So do I just demand from my H to put more money in or do I wait patiently for him to learn or do I just move out myself so that H follows? I'm lost here. I want to give him an ultimatum but I know that won't go over well.


Set up your budget as you normally do, but factor in what your true costs should be. Find the monthly rent for a decent place plus add in the utilities that you should be paying if you had your own place. Subtract that money right from the top and put it into savings aka an "untouchable account". After that is done, then budget with the rest of your money and allocate fun money only after everything else is paid for. That SHOULD mean zero money for his parents moving forward and most likely zero fun money too unless one of both of you get a better job. 

Add in costs for food, shelter and utilities and then you'll know what real life is all about.


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## turnera

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Set up your budget as you normally do, but factor in what your true costs should be. Find the monthly rent for a decent place plus add in the utilities that you should be paying if you had your own place. Subtract that money right from the top and put it into savings aka an "untouchable account". After that is done, then budget with the rest of your money and allocate fun money only after everything else is paid for. That SHOULD mean zero money for his parents moving forward and most likely zero fun money too unless one of both of you get a better job.
> 
> Add in costs for food, shelter and utilities and then you'll know what real life is all about.


I have to agree. If you're relying on your folks, you should either be paying off all debt or you should be putting aside the money you WOULD be paying for what he provides into a savings account.

DD24 has a friend who's living free in one of her dad's houses. We were just talking about her yesterday, about instead of racking up debt, spending ALL their income, they could have been putting aside that money that they were saving so they could get a down payment for a house of their own. Basically, if they're spending all their money while having FREE room and board, they are OVERspending and need to cut out expenses.


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## PieOhMy

I agree! Just reinforcing it with my H is what makes it so hard.


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## PieOhMy

In our therapy session tomorrow, I'm going to tell my H that I understand his concerns for his parents, but not at our expense. I'm going to tell him that we are going to put a mandatory $1000 a month into Savings, to represent what we would be paying into rent, on top of what we've been putting into Savings every week. I'll also tell him that the $1000 will go into an account in my father's name, for him to use or hold on to for us until we move out. (My dad refuses to charge us rent, I've tried to get him to do it but he won't, he doesn't want to get involved with our issues, but I talked him into "holding onto" money for us for the future). 

If my H does not agree with this, then I'm going to tell him I want him to move out and that I need some time apart. I have been very upset with him this whole week because I'm sick of his money habits. It makes me sick.

I know I have my own role in this, but with my own job which doesn't pay nearly as much as my H's and acting as my father's personal assistant, I never was a big spender. I'm not one of those girls that went on $500 shopping sprees and got my nails done every week. I'm what my mom called a squirrel. I was good at saving my money. When I came into this marriage at 22, I had $11K saved. I spent some on paying off my car and paying off my Lasik surgery, but the rest disappeared in helping my H's parents and his immigration. 

(Brief overview on my father: he makes a lot of money, is very generous, but 100% depended on my mom with everything besides work. After her passing, I took up her roles and my father offered to pay me weekly to act as his personal assistant. I denied it because my H and I were living rent free. I also didn't want to leave him alone at first. He had a lot to learn, I just wanted to take care of him. He also started drinking more after her death, so it was a bad time for him. So those have been my roles for the past 4 years.) 

At this point, I feel more secure being with my dad than being with my husband. Am I being too harsh? Am I wording things wrong? I feel like I can't budge with this. I've given my H plenty of time to see the errors of his way. And someone said in a comment about this: after 4 years of living rent free with my father, we have NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT. It's pathetic.


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## PieOhMy

Also, just because I'm implementing this, it does not mean that we can't send money to his parents. It just means that if there's any leftover "fun money" at the end of the week, then he will have to sacrifice that to send it. Again, something that will be effecting both of us. But that he'll have to pick between sending his parents money or going to see a movie with friends. There will be sacrifices he has to make.


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## turnera

It all makes sense. The only warning I have is don't make it such an ultimatum because your H's fear reflex over upsetting his parents will take hold of him and he will be UNABLE to choose you, if you say 'right now, them or me?' I'd make it more of a 'we will start implementing this in stages and if I see you backslide or sneak money to them, I'm out' type of thing.

I would add, though, if your dad's that well off, and you're spending considerable hours each week, like more than 15 to 20 hours or more, helping him, you should consider letting him pay you. I hate to suggest not telling your husband but at the stage you two are at, maybe it would be something to consider. Anyway maybe letting your dad put money into an account for your work that only you can access, and let that be the basis of your savings, or else make it an entirely separate savings account for you personally.


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## TRy

PieOhMy said:


> I'm going to tell him that we are going to put a mandatory $1000 a month into Savings, to represent what we would be paying into rent, on top of what we've been putting into Savings every week. I'll also tell him that the $1000 will go into an account in my father's name, for him to use or hold on to for us until we move out. (My dad refuses to charge us rent, I've tried to get him to do it but he won't, he doesn't want to get involved with our issues, but I talked him into "holding onto" money for us for the future).


 I was with you up until you said this. If I was your husband, this would be a deal breaker for me. Giving it to your father to hold in his name as a form of rent, mixed in with your willingness to move out if he does not agree to this, would be viewed as you funding a divorce account for your benifit that would not be part of the community property.

Instead have the money go into CDs that have locked in terms with penalties for early withdrawals. He could still pull the money out, it would be an immediate red flag if he did this without your consent.


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## turnera

I agree. Involving your dad is no better than him giving in to his parents.


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## PieOhMy

I didn't think of a CD, that's a good idea. A much better idea, in fact. Wow, you guys are so smart lol. I have money my mom left me in a CD and I never thought about starting another one, duh.


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## PieOhMy

I would only bring it up if there were more set terms with working for my dad. And most of the things I do are for my dad or for the house. I take care of his finances and bills, and I'm home for appointments for the house or when something needs to be done. I've always managed his renovations. Idk, I guess I never felt like I did enough for him. However, my dad does pay for my IC which is out of network.


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## Plan 9 from OS

turnera said:


> I agree. Involving your dad is no better than him giving in to his parents.


No. I see it as being no different than rent money. If that money goes to her dad, and they never see a penny of it, then that's no different than those 2 having a landlord who they have to pay for room and board. Her dad is, for all intents and purposes, giving her husbands family money. 

If you really want to get it above board and clean both legally and ethically, the dad needs to charge them for room and board, and he then needs to pay her as an assistant if she's doing for him well above and beyond a normal adult daughter watching out for her dad.

Bottom line is if her husband balks at that in any way, then either 1) they both leave her dad's house and find their own place to pay for rent, food and utilities or 2) she boots her H's sorry ass to the curb, divorces and then spends time with her dad until she gets herself back on her feet to go out on her own. 

Regarding parental involvement. Too late for that. If adult children are being subsidized by a parent(s), then the adult children naturally lose some freedom, pride and self respect. If you don't want to be on the hook to mom and dad, don't take the financial assistance. It's that simple.


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## turnera

Normally I agree, but this whole situation has been FUBAR from the beginning. In order to save the marriage, improve it, they need to set up a 'team' situation in which the two of them work together for PROGRESS. Which, IMO, requires moving away from the 'dad, take care of this money for us' situation.


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## TRy

Plan 9 from OS said:


> If you really want to get it above board and clean both legally and ethically, the dad needs to charge them for room and board, and he then needs to pay her as an assistant if she's doing for him well above and beyond a normal adult daughter watching out for her dad.


 Legally and ethically a parent can provide free housing to a child without charging the child for it. Also, legally and ethically a child can help their parents without charging the parent for this help. If they were to do it your way, and charge each other for these things, then they would owe taxes for this income.


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## Plan 9 from OS

TRy said:


> Legally and ethically a parent can provide free housing to a child without charging the child for it. Also, legally and ethically a child can help their parents without charging the parent for this help. If they were to do it your way, and charge each other for these things, then they would owe taxes for this income.


I know. But the proposal was to take the money that they would "pay" for rent and living expenses and give to dad to hold onto in an account. If they divorce, that could look like money funneled away for Pie that the H cannot get his hands on.


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## PieOhMy

I just feel like I can't budge with this anymore.


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## PieOhMy

I have my IC session today too, so I'll get to talk to her about it and maybe get a better hold on what words I want to use. 

My friend asked me if I was excited or nervous about bringing this up to H in MC. And to be honest, I don't know how to answer that. I just feel angry. I don't feel nervous, I'm not excited. I just feel like I'm at the point it has to happen. I don't feel much of anything else.


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## turnera

Just try to remember that he has feelings, too, and if the whole session is about what he's doing wrong, how's he going to feel about that? I learned that if you have a bad subject to bring up, always compliment them about something first.


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## PieOhMy

The session went okay. We almost made the whole session about another subject, and I eventually veered off and brought up the finances. I stated exactly what I wanted. That I wanted at least $1000 a month to go into a CD or Savings account, and the amounts be set. No budging with it. I told my H and the therapist that I was really upset and that I've reached my limit. That things have to start changing. 

I actually started getting angry during the session, and the therapist was being very sensitive to how my H was feeling and I repeatedly told them both that I understand his situation but that this is our future. My H said that he had a hard time respecting what I have to say about our finances because I only work part time and that he doesn't feel I contribute very much. (I've been looking for a more regular job with a completely different position because with the field I'm interested in going into, I need a lot of experience hours under my belt to even be considered for the Master's program I'm interested in; I was also in school full time through December and got my certification). I ended up saying back to him, which probably was a big mistake, that I feel like some of the things he says is displaced, and has a lot to do with his mother. He's mentioned how much he hated his mother not ever getting a job in her life. And the therapist said that that's a different subject on its own and to avoid bringing that up with this subject. And I said I understood that, but I really am fed up.

I told him that I am sensitive to my H's feelings which is why I'm not saying no to sending his parents money, even if it makes him feel better. But that can only happen if we have the money and it's coming from the leftover fun money. And then my H stated that he felt like I'm all about money. And I told him that yes, money is a very big part of our lives because you can't get far without it. The therapist stated that unfortunately, money is very important in our culture. 

Anyways, it went on. My H didn't agree at all with what I said about him displacing his emotions on me. I should have known better to bring that up. But at the same time, it felt good to. I haven't said that to him yet. 

In our MC session we scheduled to have our finance talk tomorrow night. So I guess we'll see how that goes. 

The therapist was feeling for my H a lot and was stating that the changes don't have to be immediate and may take time. So i also mentioned to the therapist that I've been flexible with our budget too long and my H had plenty of opportunities to make better decisions, that I had trusted him and waited for him to figure it out on his own, but he never seemed to come around. And that I don't expect a miracle overnight but I am not budging because being flexible was not working.

So that was that. I wanted to slap my H when he said it was hard to respect what I was saying because I wasn't working enough. I told him that I have a Bachelor's under my belt, a decent GPA and my certification. That I have been working since I was 14 and understand the importance and that these past two years was the longest period I've ever had of not having a full time job. And then I mentioned that I came into this marriage with $11K. And that I am to blame for some but that $7K went I don't know where (I do know where, his parents and immigration). I told him it's my own fault for not being stricter with myself and my own money, but that I remember him agreeing with me taking time off after my mom died from working to finish my bachelor's degree and get my certification. A lot came out.

I know I was a little tough. But at the same, I can't help but feel better for getting that all off my chest.


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## turnera

Sounds like a lot of cans got opened. That's good. Just don't make his life miserable at home, ok? Save the emotions for the next MC meeting.


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## PieOhMy

I didn't. I just told him that I wasn't in the best mood and to give me a little bit. He ended up trying to make me feel better and made me dinner. It was nice. We ended up having a good night. Hopefully tomorrow night will go well too.


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## zillard

PieOhMy said:


> I didn't. I just told him that I wasn't in the best mood and to give me a little bit. He ended up trying to make me feel better and made me dinner. It was nice. We ended up having a good night. Hopefully tomorrow night will go well too.


What happens directly after a hard session can sometimes be more telling than what happens in the actual session.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

Yeah...it was nice. I was quiet for like 10 minutes and then finally got up and helped him with dinner. I think he realizes how upset I am. I think (crossing my fingers) that he knows that a stricter budget needs to be put into place and more into Savings. It's just time to finally do it, no more waiting. I told him that if we were to put $1000 a month away for a year, we'd probably have enough for a down payment on a house in a year. He said he wants a house and has the same goals, it's just getting there that's hard.

I really do feel for my H with the whole parent situation. But I also think it's terrible that with the pace we're going out, we'd be living with my father for another 4 years to save enough for a house, which is ridiculous. And of course we ended up talking about his parents again in the session. They always come up. This was one convo:

H: It really kills me when they message me saying they have no food. It's very hard for me to ignore that.
MC: Yes, that's hard for anyone to hear. But it's even harder for you because you don't know to what extent they could be helping themselves or making the situation better.
H: Yeah, I don't know what it's like over there anymore. I know the economy is not good but I also think they're not trying hard enough.
MC: How do you feel about this? (To me)
Me: I feel bad that they message my H so much. They don't leave him alone. And I get frustrated because I agree that the economy isn't great over there, but when I research, the economy has been getting better little by little every year. And I do believe there are small jobs out there they could be taking. But the biggest thing that upsets me is when they say they have no food. Because I have a garden in my backyard that could feed my family for months. I've got green beans, tomatoes, peppers, jalapenos, cucumbers, scallions, eggplant, watermelons and herbs. It costed me $30 for all the seeds. ONLY $30. Buy myself a bag of flour, add some water and salt, I've got homemade artisan bread. Their weather is similar to ours, their seasons are the same. Why can't they start a garden? If they don't have space, why not put them in pots? It just upsets me and I can only imagine how much it upsets my H.

No one said anything after that. And then the MC changed the subject to more positive things like what we did over the weekend and fun stuff we did with friends (that didn't cost money ). And then the session ended.


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## turnera

It really does sound like good progress, Pie. I'm really hopeful. As long as you show him support but also the need for stronger boundaries, it keeps you two on the same team. And that's the essential thing - that you can tackle anything together.


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## PieOhMy

I hope our finance talk goes okay and he doesn't try to "weasel" his way out of agreeing to stricter boundaries. I don't feel I can accept any less than $1000 a week into Savings. Actually, I'd rather it be $1000 a week into a CD and $100 into regular Savings, which we've been using for smaller stuff than a house but over $500. I also consider it our safety net. Since we won't have access to the CD without a penalty. Then of course there are bills. My Savings from my mom is in a CD and I decided that would be for our kids. I also made it very clear to my H that once I got a full time job, I'd want all my money to go into the same CD because I want our kids to have the option to go to college if they can't get a scholarship and to be able to help them the first few years at least. I'm not saying we could never use my paycheck if there was an emergency or if my H lost his job or something. 

I just really hope he agrees with all of this. And doesn't start getting upset or something. Cause when he starts getting angry and defensive with me, I start feeling hopeless and sad myself.


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## PieOhMy

The finance talk went great. He didn't argue anything. However, he did say that he'd prefer that we used the money my mom left me to help with a down payment on a house if we needed it, and I actually got really mad that he even said that. I told him that my mother wouldn't want us to use that money for that. And I think he said this the wrong way, but he said that we would decide what to do with it, that my mother isn't here to tell us what to do with it. I ended up just saying that I have no interest in using it for a down payment on a house. That it will be the beginning of our kid's college fund. That if we stick with this plan, we shouldn't ever need it. So $1000/mo into Savings. And whatever i make, whether that's a lot, a little or nothing, goes to the kid's fund as well. Plus $100 or whatever we can into our regular Savings depending on how much he makes that week. And we included his parents as a bill. $250/mo. And I told him that if he decides to send more money that it's coming out of fun money. And that if he bombs that, I'm not paying his credit card. He said that's fine and that he understood. And that he doesn't want to send his parents money but he'd rather keep $250/mo aside so there's no surprises or effect on bills and savings. I also stated that our credit cards should only be for gas and groceries. And that I do not want him to use MY credit cards for anything else. We calculated an allowance for the credit cards based on weekly gas and groceries. 

So, I think we're on the same page. I told him thank you. And I was so happy I hugged him and kissed him. I did ask him that after so long of wanting to put more in savings, why did he finally agree to it now? He said he didn't think it would work. I didn't question it more, but it's something I'm definitely going to ask about in MC when it comes up. Cause it could have always worked. I just don't think he wanted to give up certain things. But anyways, point is that we've agreed on this, I didnt even have to argue anything. It went smooth.


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## turnera

The next step is to send his folks an email/text stipulating that you are setting up a budget and that you will be sending them $250/month, and no more. That you simply can't afford any more than that, but that they can depend on the $250. That should regulate things pretty well.

And the next step after that is to talk to his brother about what HIS contribution to the parents will be.


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## PieOhMy

Yeah, I was going to bring up the parent thing in the next session.


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## PieOhMy

Same thing with the brother. Our next appointment is Tuesday, again. I just wish my H was more firm and less passive or avoiding.


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## turnera

That won't happen without HIM going to therapy. That's a lot of fear and shame he'd have to overcome to be able to do that. Just remember he's in constant turmoil, every single day. As long as YOU remain the one calming, loving, fulfilling part of his life, it will be you he listens to.


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## MarriedTex

PieOhMy said:


> The finance talk went great. He didn't argue anything. However, he did say that he'd prefer that we used the money my mom left me to help with a down payment on a house if we needed it, and I actually got really mad that he even said that. I told him that my mother wouldn't want us to use that money for that. And I think he said this the wrong way, but he said that we would decide what to do with it, that my mother isn't here to tell us what to do with it. I ended up just saying that I have no interest in using it for a down payment on a house. That it will be the beginning of our kid's college fund. That if we stick with this plan, we shouldn't ever need it. So $1000/mo into Savings. And whatever i make, whether that's a lot, a little or nothing, goes to the kid's fund as well. Plus $100 or whatever we can into our regular Savings depending on how much he makes that week. And we included his parents as a bill. $250/mo. And I told him that if he decides to send more money that it's coming out of fun money. And that if he bombs that, I'm not paying his credit card. He said that's fine and that he understood. And that he doesn't want to send his parents money but he'd rather keep $250/mo aside so there's no surprises or effect on bills and savings. I also stated that our credit cards should only be for gas and groceries. And that I do not want him to use MY credit cards for anything else. We calculated an allowance for the credit cards based on weekly gas and groceries.
> 
> So, I think we're on the same page. I told him thank you. And I was so happy I hugged him and kissed him. I did ask him that after so long of wanting to put more in savings, why did he finally agree to it now? He said he didn't think it would work. I didn't question it more, but it's something I'm definitely going to ask about in MC when it comes up. Cause it could have always worked. I just don't think he wanted to give up certain things. But anyways, point is that we've agreed on this, I didnt even have to argue anything. It went smooth.


Pie, if I'm your husband, I'm thinking that I'm going to be in store for decades and decades of fights over money. 

Basically what I see here is that you win in getting agreement for $1,000 a month in savings, and then you move the goalposts. (It really would be nice to have another $100 in savings account on top of the $1,000.) I don't disagree with your savings goals. They're admirable. But the way you're going about it will ultimately demoralize your husband into thinking he can never win on this stuff. 

For whatever reason, he's feeling the tug of supporting his parents. You may not think they deserve it. They, indeed, may be lazy bums leeching of you. But, deep down, he's trying to serve multiple interests pulling on his earnings. He wants to say "yes" to everybody and will ultimately develop resentment that he can't help his family in the here and now in order to save cash for the education of yet-to-be-born children. (I believe you have no kids. Forgive me if I'm mixing up threads.)

By the way, your husband is right in allocating free money into house down payment now. I have three kids in college right now, and I know the system. If you're "house-rich" and "cash-poor," you will be eligible for a lot more financial aid than would otherwise be the case. 

Develop some idea on the type of school you envision your kids attending. If it's likely to be a public university, you want to plow all of your money into house and retirement accounts. Otherwise, any cash loose in general savings or 529 accounts gets hoovered up into tuition. If you don't have free savings sitting there, you're in much better position for cash financial aid. Things get more complicated when maximizing support at a private institution. 

The summary of the above paragraph is that maybe you don't know as much about maximizing finances as you think you know. You might actually benefit if you take a closer look at some of your husband's thoughts without dismissing them out of hand. 
Indeed, you'd be much better off putting down a large deposit on a house and plowing xtra cash over the years into early mortgage pay-off. 

But truth be told, your best bet for a prosperous life is to invest in human capital. Love your husband. Spend time with your kids. Read to them. Enjoy him & them while you have them. 

In terms of finances, yes, set goals and work towards them. But I'm just getting a whiff of "obsession" over money issues. I recognize the role that financial security plays in building a strong family. Hold on too tightly to that dollar bill, though, and you run the risk of losing grip on the things that are truly important. Everything in moderation!


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## PieOhMy

Well I actually told him that we should probably talk to somebody, like a financial advisor to see what we should do with Savings and whatnot for the future. And I actually did tell him that I don't feel like I know enough about the bigger stuff, like stocks and other investments and would like to learn about them.


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## PieOhMy

Honestly, I still don't like the idea of using my mom's money for a down payment of a house. If anything, that's the money I'd want to use to invest. And I do envision my kids going to a nice college. And if they don't, then they don't. I went to a private college. I just want to make sure my kids have the opportunity to do so as well if yo they choose to.


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## PieOhMy

And I don't have kids. I want to wait a few years. Or at least until I have a decent paying full time job and moved out without any debt.


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## zillard

I would also want to put it toward a down payment. Especially not having any kids yet. Larger dp means lower mortgage payment. Lower payment means more freedom to invest either back into the house or elsewhere during the mortgage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

PieOhMy said:


> And I don't have kids. I want to wait a few years. Or at least until I have a decent paying full time job and moved out without any debt.


Pie, your adherence to this notion of the money being used for a college fund, for children you do not yet have, sounds emotional rather than logical.

Emotions have no business in money matters. Just ask your husband about it as he continues to send money to his parents...


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## Blossom Leigh

fyi.... Pie, don't let the banks tell you what you can afford on a house. Take what they tell you and cut it in HALF at LEAST. 

Just a public service announcement from your friendly Blossom Leigh, former mortgage banker turned real estate entrepreneur. :nerd:


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## farsidejunky

I would take it one step further.

If I were him, I would feel an awful lot like "what is yours is yours and what is mine is yours" with the way you are set in how to allocate the inheritance.

Quite frankly it would probably build resentment in me every time you told me how the money I am earning at work should be spent.

Not saying it is fair, but I would bet money it has crossed his mind on more than on occasion.


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## turnera

I agree about the inheritance thing. Just because you have rich parents and he doesn't, you get to keep your money to use as you see fit, but then you get to set the limit on what you can give his folks?

You guys need a lot more discussions about this. I do agree you should find a good financial consultant and start using him/her. Let them guide you.


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## PieOhMy

You're right, it is emotional. I guess that's something I need to work on. I think I'm scared of letting go of it because the inheritance used to be combined with our regular Savings, making up 99% of our savings. But when he decided to send about $3K at one time to his parents about 2 years ago, he dipped into the savings. Using $1500 of what was from my mother's inheritance. I asked him not to, but he chose to anyways because it was an emergency. And it was right after that that I told him I was withdrawing what was left of the inheritance and putting it in a CD. And he said that was fine. And so it hasn't been touched since.

I'd be willing to use maybe half of it to help with a down payment on a house. But not all of it. I'd want to invest the rest or see what's best after talking to a financial advisor.

I guess I feel that inheritance is my only financial security right now until I get a better paying job. Which should be soon, hopefully. Before summer ends I'm hoping. And I still feel insecure about my H sending his parents money. If he sticks to this plan, and doesn't let his parents interfere with it, I think I'd feel better about the idea.


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## farsidejunky

PieOhMy said:


> You're right, it is emotional. I guess that's something I need to work on. I think I'm scared of letting go of it because the inheritance used to be combined with our regular Savings, making up 99% of our savings. But when he decided to send about $3K at one time to his parents about 2 years ago, he dipped into the savings. Using $1500 of what was from my mother's inheritance. I asked him not to, but he chose to anyways because it was an emergency. And it was right after that that I told him I was withdrawing what was left of the inheritance and putting it in a CD. And he said that was fine. And so it hasn't been touched since.
> 
> I'd be willing to use maybe half of it to help with a down payment on a house. But not all of it. I'd want to invest the rest or see what's best after talking to a financial advisor.
> 
> I guess I feel that inheritance is my only financial security right now until I get a better paying job. Which should be soon, hopefully. Before summer ends I'm hoping. And I still feel insecure about my H sending his parents money. If he sticks to this plan, and doesn't let his parents interfere with it, I think I'd feel better about the idea.


That is fair.

Better yet, reach an agreement whereby you tell him you are willing to use half for a down payment provided he agrees to a set amount for his parents, a certain amount to savings, etc.


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## PieOhMy

Told H that I understand where he's coming from. But that I don't fully trust him with finances right now, and that I need time to think about it. And he said he doesn't trust himself with finances either, and that he understands.


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## PieOhMy

So we will cross that bridge when we get there. 

On another note. I noticed that the MC has a tendency to bring up the "friends situation" very briefly every now and then in out sessions. There's been two times that he asks how I feel about them and I still say I have no interest in bring friends with them and do not want them in my life. And the last session he brought them up again, and I kind of extended what I've been telling him. I said, "I do not like them, I do not want them in my life. I think Amy has alternative motives. That if my H wants them that bad, he can have them. I just won't be around for it. As I said to him before, I feel I've tried all I can do on my part individually, and that if the relationship ended, I would be at peace with it. I refuse to be disrespected." And then the therapist kind of nods and moves on with another discussion. And my H never responds to what I say.

My question is, why do you think the therapist keeps bringing it up? To see if I'll change my mind? To see how my H responds? Just curious if anyone has some thoughts.


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## AliceA

Maybe because your DH hasn't closed the topic. At any point has he said he was not going to pursue the friendship as soon as you gave the green light? I know he said something that sounded like a temporary halt, but there wasn't anything permanent planned. It's possible your therapist thinks this is still an open topic for your DH, so if at any point you change your mind, your DH would benefit from knowing about it.


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## PieOhMy

No, he hasn't made any comment about the subject at all. So I guess he still thinks it's temporary or something.


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## PieOhMy

I really hope he just let's it go. I don't really see it being worth it. Idk if he really doesn't see Amy's motives or he just doesn't want to admit it. Keeping my fingers crossed and sticking to my boundaries.


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## turnera

Don't forget that Amy, on some level, strokes his ego. And that a man's top 3 Emotional Needs are usually Sex, Recreation, and Admiration. If you're not meeting his need for admiration enough - and there's been a lot of crushing lately in that area - she will look mighty attractive to him, without him even knowing why.


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## PieOhMy

Ew, I still think she's nasty. I guess I'll never understand people like that.

I've been doing better with the admiration. But it's hard because at the same time of trying to work out the issues with his parents and finances, it's hard to express things without hurting his feelings. Like some things, no matter how they come out, aren't very positive.


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## PieOhMy

Nonetheless, the abuse part, too. That's going to be a sensitive subject because he's going to have to face that he's not being a very good husband in ways.


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## Plan 9 from OS

PieOhMy said:


> Nonetheless, *the abuse part*, too. That's going to be a sensitive subject because he's going to have to face that he's not being a very good husband in ways.


What kind of abuse and how frequently does it happen? Is he physically abusive? If ever, when was the last time he physically abused you?


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## PieOhMy

He shoves me or like rams into me. Or grabs my wrists. That kind of stuff.


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## PieOhMy

One of our mutual friends, Tyler, has a girlfriend that is very rude to everybody and has openly said that he wants Tyler's mom to move out of the house so her and Tyler can own it. She's got two kids, no job and a lot of us believe she might actually be after his money because he owns his own business and is basically a b*tch to everybody. She doesn't like it when he spends time with us or his guy friends or anything. 

Anyways, H said today that he sees a lot of her manipulative ways in how I was in the past. And that her trying to pull Tyler away from his friends and family reminds him of what I did. Fortunately, the conversation did not go bad, we were able to talk about it like adults, it was nice. 

I told him that I can understand where he sees the similarities. But that the situations are very different because I am not Jessica, and my H is not Tyler. He kept insisting they were similar. And I stated again that I didn't feel it was a good idea to be comparing us to them. I stated that our circumstances were very different. And he said he knows, she's got two kids and no job, she's after his money whereas he never had any money, but that he still felt it was going in the same direction. He asked me what else made it so different. I answered telling him that I've shared with him why our circumstances were so different in the past and that I feel like I'd be taking the "bait" if I answered that question.

He asked if I had anything to say. I told him that I truly believe we BOTH were in the wrong for the way we acted. But that I also thought that we were too young to really even understand how to face the problems we did and that in many ways, we learned from it. I told him that instead of resenting him for what he did, I decided that I wanted to love him and make it work. And to always be thinking about what HE did, I had to stop focusing on him and take a good look at MYSELF. And that in the end, figuring out why I acted the way I did, made me more at peace with myself, and as a result, made me able to love him more. 

I told him that I sometimes feel like he needs to decide if he wants to live always hating and resenting me, or work on loving me. He said that he does love me, but that he sometimes thinks about it. And that it seems like he is sometimes in a bad mood in the morning, and then the bad mood clings to a certain subject sometimes, and today this was it. 

I told him I am here to talk in the morning, at night, at anytime, I'm here. And that maybe it's something worth bringing up in MC. I told him that I was able to work a lot of things out in my own IC and maybe it will help. 

We ended up changing the subject and talking about something else. And he left the house on good terms. It was nice. We have MC tonight. So we'll see how it goes.


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## MarriedTex

PieOhMy said:


> I hope our finance talk goes okay and he doesn't try to "weasel" his way out of agreeing to stricter boundaries. I don't feel I can accept any less than $1000 a week into Savings. Actually, I'd rather it be $1000 a week into a CD and $100 into regular Savings, which we've been using for smaller stuff than a house but over $500. I also consider it our safety net. Since we won't have access to the CD without a penalty. Then of course there are bills. My Savings from my mom is in a CD and I decided that would be for our kids. I also made it very clear to my H that once I got a full time job, I'd want all my money to go into the same CD because I want our kids to have the option to go to college if they can't get a scholarship and to be able to help them the first few years at least. I'm not saying we could never use my paycheck if there was an emergency or if my H lost his job or something.
> 
> I just really hope he agrees with all of this. And doesn't start getting upset or something. Cause when he starts getting angry and defensive with me, I start feeling hopeless and sad myself.


Gee, can't imagine why he might be thinking that your primary reason for being with him is money. You say you're not like Jessica because you had "no money" before him, you have no job now yourself and you're making the types of demands above on him. 

Good news is that your husband has his head screwed on straight and is figuring it out. He's telling you - in a variety of different ways - that he wants you to respect the sacrifices he is making for you. You refuse to listen. 

I agree there is a problem in your relationship. You're pointing the finger at him. Just remember when you point a single finger at somebody, you have three others pointing right back at yourself. 

This is my last posting on your threads. I wish you luck. If you don't start really listening to what your husband is telling you and acknowledging some of the things he's putting on the table, you will need all the luck you can get.


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## lucy999

@MarriedTex. So you don't hold any value in the fact they're living in her dad's house rent and utility free?


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## Nucking Futs

MarriedTex said:


> Gee, can't imagine why he might be thinking that your primary reason for being with him is money. Y*ou say you're not like Jessica because you had "no money" before him,* you have no job now yourself and you're making the types of demands above on him.
> 
> Good news is that your husband has his head screwed on straight and is figuring it out. He's telling you - in a variety of different ways - that he wants you to respect the sacrifices he is making for you. You refuse to listen.
> 
> I agree there is a problem in your relationship. You're pointing the finger at him. Just remember when you point a single finger at somebody, you have three others pointing right back at yourself.
> 
> This is my last posting on your threads. I wish you luck. If you don't start really listening to what your husband is telling you and acknowledging some of the things he's putting on the table, you will need all the luck you can get.


I don't understand where your hostility for this OP is coming from, but you just had a reading comprehension fail. PieOhMy is not like Jessica because Jessica was broke and married a millionair, while PieOhMy had money and married a broke guy. Don't forget, he took some of her inheritance and gave it to his parents. If there's a gold digger here it's him.



PieOhMy said:


> I told him that I can understand where he sees the similarities. But that the situations are very different because I am not Jessica, and my H is not Tyler. He kept insisting they were similar. And I stated again that I didn't feel it was a good idea to be comparing us to them. I stated that our circumstances were very different. And he said he knows, *she's got two kids and no job, she's after his money whereas he never had any money, but that he still felt it was going in the same direction.* He asked me what else made it so different. I answered telling him that I've shared with him why our circumstances were so different in the past and that I feel like I'd be taking the "bait" if I answered that question.


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## Plan 9 from OS

No comments on the fact that her husband physically abuses her still? WTF Pie? Can't you see what kind of marriage you have? Fock this thread. If the OP cannot figure out the basics besides being shown repeatedly, I'm done.

Your husband is an abusive, manipulative user who is using the largess of your father to help him subsidize his parents plus blow his money on himself. You dated his brother who was also an abuser, and your husband sucks at managing money. Love does not conquer all in a marriage. It doesn't.


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## PieOhMy

Actually, in MC today we touched base on that finally. When I asked him why he did it, he said he wasn't sure. He knows he was very mad and upset and that he basically let it all out and that he didn't know where it started, or why it started. Just that he always felt I was manipulating him and didn't know how to get me to stop. And that he always felt like I was pushing his buttons. Unfortunately, the session ended. So I think it's going to be our topic of conversation next week. 

He continued to repeatedly say he hates what he did and he doesn't want to be like it, he never wanted to hurt me and how sorry he was and started crying. I really didn't know what to say. I think it's going to be hard for me to understand it all because to me, it's just not okay. 

I definitely want to talk about it in the next session. We didn't say anything about it but he seemed kind of quiet the rest of the night.


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## AliceA

See how he blames you for his actions? See how he has no idea why he does what he does? He's saying he has no control. 

It will always be your fault, or his family's fault, or somebody else's fault. He's not in control of his life. He's sitting in the back seat blaming everyone else for everything that happens, because he's not driving, so of course it can't be his fault. He's a victim. Welcome to his drama triangle.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fixing-families/201106/the-relationship-triangle


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## turnera

Pie, this is incredibly traditional. BOTH of you feel torn in different directions.


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## PieOhMy

I think he's following my exact pattern. As crazy as this sounds, my IC once mentioned that it sounds like my H never really learned how to deal with his emotions since he didn't have a great up bringing and that she sometimes sees a pattern where he mirrors what i do, like he's learning some of his emotions as I express my own and some of his behaviors from me.

I'm thinking this is how it went, I might be wrong. 

Beginning of relationship when I was taking care of my mom, work, school, and helped him with his immigration. : I was the rescuer and he was the victim. 

Mom's illness got worse, his friends and family all started sh*tting on me and sometimes him. I didn't feel like he was doing anything about it: I was the victim and he was the rescuer. I feel like this time didn't last very long.

Mom died. I gave him my boundaries and ultimatums. But still resented that he was so passive and let things get so far with his friends and family: I became prosecutor and he became victim.

Then there was a time I feel like we were both prosecutor. Ready to rip each other apart. 

Then I got tired, mentally unstable, and didn't want to fight anymore but he was still always amped up: I think I fell back into victim and he stayed at prosecutor. 

Then I felt more stable and confident with IC and just better in life. But fed up with his ways: I think this is where I started attempting to be an adult and sometimes still revert back to victim. And he's still prosecutor but sometimes reverts back to victim, too. Only recently am I seeing some adult in him. Fingers crossed. And I think this is where we're still at now. I THINK I'm getting closer to adult, and farther away from both prosecutor and victim. But that's my struggle right now.


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## lucy999

PieOhMy said:


> Actually, in MC today we touched base on that finally. When I asked him why he did it, he said he wasn't sure. He knows he was very mad and upset and that he basically let it all out and that he didn't know where it started, or why it started. Just that he always felt I was manipulating him and didn't know how to get me to stop. And that he always felt like I was pushing his buttons. Unfortunately, the session ended. So I think it's going to be our topic of conversation next week.
> 
> He continued to repeatedly say he hates what he did and he doesn't want to be like it, he never wanted to hurt me and how sorry he was and started crying.


Same script my abusive ex BF had. Peppered with, "See what you make me do?" Cliche, I know.

You guys have alot on your plate. I know the therapist is guiding you but I just, for the life of me, don't understand why the abuse issue is not front and center, and only merely mentioned. All the other issues pale in comparison. That said, I've never been through therapy (insert maybe you should! joke here :smile2 so I don't know how it works.


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## PieOhMy

I think it will be the topic of our next discussion. Usually the therapist picks up where it left off.


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## tripad

lucy999 said:


> Same script my abusive ex BF had. Peppered with, "See what you make me do?" Cliche, I know.


I get lots of that too . after my ex financially n physically abused me .

i am so much better now . out of it . my kids are much better too .


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## PieOhMy

That's great. I've heard horror stories that really scare me. It doesn't happen often, but it happens. He never did like a beating but he does a lot of grabbing and pushing. I get scared that it may get worst. The last time it happened was about a week before we stayed MC, so about two months ago now. Sometimes I wonder if they do it because they feel intimidated or threatened. 

I wish my H would take more responsibility for his actions and for the past. When I asked him if he still blames me for his mom and little brother going back to their country, he said sometimes. He doesn't when things are going good with them, but he does when things are going bad for them.


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## PieOhMy

And he told me that himself. Btw. I also feel like he's playing a lot of victim in therapy and just in general when we talk. It's sometimes hard because I'm very frustrated that he doesn't take responsibility for what he's done. Actually, the only thing he has verbally taken responsibility for and regrets is the physical abuse. I don't know if I believe that, more like I'll believe it as long as it never happens again. But for things with his friends, family, and some things in life, his brother, he just doesn't take any blame. And when he expresses his feelings to me, I have to bite my tongue and just comfort him and remain very neutral. I think it's helping, but it's all exhausting sometimes.


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## PieOhMy

He did take some responsibility with the finances, too. He openly said he doesn't believe he's good with money and feels we would have nothing saved if it weren't for me. And that he trusts me with it.


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## PieOhMy

So there are positives.


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## PieOhMy

I guess I just have to be patient and calm.


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## turnera

I've found that oftentimes, people don't really know about this kind of stuff...unless it's shown to them...in a safe way. You can be that driving force in his life, the person who shows him he can be more than what he was raised to be.


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## PieOhMy

I never thought about it that way...I've been so scared to say much to him because he always thinks everything that comes out of my mouth is manipulative and controlling. But then when I tried using "I feel" instead of "you" it became "Why is it always about you? You make everything about you! You're so selfish!" 

Sometimes I wanted to show him the way, but I don't think it came out of my mouth right, because he saw it as controlling. Or he'd literally say things like, "What do you think, you're God? You think you can show me the way? Who do you think you are?" There was a time that I always thought I was right. But when I started going to therapy after my mom died, I started realizing that my ways may have been the "smarter/logical way", but that it didn't mean that it was the best way for my husband, mentally. Sometimes I think we were so young, and still getting to know each other, we never realized how our actions would effect the other.


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## PieOhMy

I wish I could be his driving force. He's gotten so mad and said things like, "I'm going to do what I WANT, whether you like it or not! You can do it with me or not, but I'm going!" It's stuff like that that makes me think his own anger is his driving force, or just him. I don't always think he considers me in his decisions or actions. But I've seen some changes, so I have some hope.


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## farsidejunky

PieOhMy said:


> I wish I could be his driving force. He's gotten so mad and said things like, "I'm going to do what I WANT, whether you like it or not! You can do it with me or not, but I'm going!" It's stuff like that that makes me think his own anger is his driving force, or just him. I don't always think he considers me in his decisions or actions. But I've seen some changes, so I have some hope.


Anger is a secondary emotion. Usually anger is driven by fear or hurt. 

What you need to figure out which one it is.


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## turnera

Many men hate to hear their wives say what they think the men should do because it reminds them of their mother. Don't tell me what to do! kind of stuff. It's a hard line to take.


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## PieOhMy

Lol definitely.


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## PieOhMy

I don't know what his anger is from. I definitely would say both. But probably more fear. Fear that I'm taking over or emasculate him, fear that I might be right? Is that too ****y? Fear that I might be right that if I have a gut bad feeling, my gut feeling is right and something bad does happen.


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## PieOhMy

Sometimes I wonder if he's secure with himself.


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## AliceA

If you continue to rescue him, you'll be stuck in that drama triangle forever. The problem is that his choices also impact your quality of life, but if you don't stop trying to rescue him, he will always feel oppressed. Then he'll lash out at you.

In the beginning of this thread, it was mostly about his friends. You wanted to stop him from interacting with them. Instead of just saying, "I am having nothing to do with them", you said, "I don't want YOU from having anything to do with them". That was controlling. Still is. You are trying to control his behaviour. You could've just stated what your boundaries were and let him make the choice of crossing them or not, but at least given him the choice. Now you're paying the price of trying to force him to do what you want. You have a husband who feels managed, controlled and disempowered.

With finances, if he wanted to blow his money on his family, it's really gotten to the point where you should've separated your finances and let him deal with his own lack of funds. If he wants to give them his money, he shouldn't be sucking it out of your family to do it. Instead you're still rescuing him, and while he can see that he is crap at managing his money and how he is benefiting from someone else handling it, he'll still hate being managed and controlled, and you are getting the blame for it.

Being the one to manage the money can work when the other person sees it as a family chore their SO is doing to help the family, but if they see it as a way for their SO to control them, suddenly it turns into financial abuse. You see all over this board where a person feels abused because their SO is controlling them through money.

I think you need to let him drown in his problems for him to ever really learn how to overcome them. I see a man who will always be a victim in his marriage if it continues this way, except at the points where it comes to a head for him and then you'll be the victim.


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## PieOhMy

This is so complex. But I feel like there's not much else I can do at this point. I will ask him how he feels about me managing the finances in MC, perhaps he'll be more comfortable to tell me how he feels. With the friends, I've continued to state that I don't want anything to do with them, I haven't said anything about him.


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## AliceA

You wanted to know about when they contacted him, you wanted to see him text his no contact message. From what I've seen on this thread, and it may have been different in reality but I can only go by how I interpret what you say here, you were very much trying to manage every aspect of his interaction with them. That's sort of over and done with now, but you seem to be wanting to know why he acts the way he does, and I think a lot of it is due to him feeling controlled. At some point you need to change the way you interact with him and letting go of that control and letting him make huge mistakes and following through with the consequences is the only way I can see for your dynamic to change. That said, I'm no expert. It's just the way I would go. I'm all for the sink or swim strategies.


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## PieOhMy

I agree. You're so absolutely right. I did that with the finances. And now he's still trying to pay off HIS credit card. And then our finance talk actually went well and he wanted to put money away into Savings and not spend so much anymore. We even included his parents as one of our "bills."

This might sound silly, but I decided to start writing a diary again. And in one of the entries my focus was on how I should have handled things in the past differently. 

In that entry, where I was actually writing to him, I wrote this, "I am sorry for how I handled things in the past. If you ever read this, maybe you'll understand why I did what I did. Not saying that it was right, but maybe you'll just understand my thinking at that time. But the truth is, I should have never pushed you or tried to control you. When things went bad with your family and friends, with you, I should have just walked away. I should have just walked away and took my chances. Because then I would have made my decision by myself, and then you would have ended up making your own as well."

I sometimes feel like he still likes to blame everything on me. And I know I vent a lot on this forum, but I really do see where I messed up. Very complex, but I get it now. I wish I knew all this four years ago lol. 

Anyways, I wish he'd stop pointing fingers at me, he even tries to blame me for him sending his mother and little brother back to their country of origin. Yeah, because four years ago we were talking about their situation and how upset his mother was all the time, and when he told me how much she missed his dad and didn't want to learn to drive or work here, I suggested that maybe she should go back to take care of his dad because he was having heart issues. Of course he then mentioned he didn't even know what he'd do with his little brother if she went back, and I told him that that one was a tough one. His little brother was 12/13 at the time, and I really didn't know what to say to him at that time, so I asked him if him and his brother were ready to take on the responsibility to care and support a child, a teenager. To raise one. And he said he didn't think he was ready for that. And then he even went on to say that he actually thought about sending them back home a lot but knew how upset they'd be. And I told him maybe it's something his family should talk about one day. And then he said he was going to talk to his brother (my BIL) and see what he thought. When I asked him how it went, he said that his brother actually thought it would be better that way. And so they spoke with their parents and BIL started the paperwork. And that was that, less than 6 months later they went back. 

One day I'd like to talk to him about this in MC, all of this. But after we follow up on last week's session first. There's a lot of mending that still needs to be done. For both of us.


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## PieOhMy

But I have hope. I think things will get better. And I think he knows I would actually tap out, too. Like I said before, I did not want to kick him out of the house, of course I wanted my husband with me in bed at home, but I needed him to see I was serious. I needed him to know that.


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## turnera

Patience, grasshopper. First job is to make him feel safe and rewarded for going to MC. Make sure he's getting something out of it. That it's not just a *****fest session to rag on him.


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## PieOhMy

I actually asked him the other day if he liked it. He said yes. And I think he actually does, I don't think he'd ever admit that to anyone else, but I believe him. Because he actually talks a lot in the sessions. Even my IC said it sounds like he's really taking to the therapy because he's finally expressing himself more. I really don't rag on him in the sessions. Except when we actually start arguing in the sessions lol. Which fortunately only happened twice. But I try to give him the chance to bring up whatever is on his mind. Very often, he starts the conversations and I just listen. I speak up, but I feel like some I have my own IC to vent to as well, it's a good chance for him to talk.


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## PieOhMy

Is it bad that I still think about what he did/said with the friends situation and Amy? Is it bad that I still feel very hurt by it?


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## turnera

Of course not. But what are you going to do with it?


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## AliceA

Seems pretty normal to me to still be feeling bad over those events. I imagine the original issues with them must've been extremely hurtful as your husband didn't stand up for you at the time, which would've felt like a betrayal. Then they contact him again so it all comes back to the fore, especially when I think it must've felt like another betrayal when he didn't immediately send them packing.

This will continue to haunt you for a while. I don't know about other people, but it takes me quite a long time, years even, to feel some distance from an incident that causes me so much angst/hurt.

I think a good way to cope is to acknowledge that you have the feeling, and sort of let it pass by. "Yes, I feel angry still, and that's okay, but I have a lot to do today, so I'd better get on with it."


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## PieOhMy

Yeah, that's what I've been doing with it everyday. Think about it for a few minutes and then push it out of my head. 

I feel like the only thing I can do with it is express how I am still very hurt by what he did in MC. I wouldn't feel safe bringing it up outside of a session. But my IC thinks I should tell him how I feel about the whole situation in MC as calm as possible. 

But I'm kind of scared to. I don't think he'll like what I say. Tell me if this is bad:

- I am extremely hurt and feel unbelievably betrayed by him doing what he did. He started talking to friends that we decided we'd never talk to again knowing how I felt about the situation. And then to make matters worse, he ran away to their house during a time of turmoil between the two of us. Not only did he share our personal issues in our marriage with Amy and John, but he also did not take any responsibility of his own role making me the outsider once again. 

-I am so hurt and so disgusted by the words he exchanged with them, especially Amy. When she knew we were having problems, she only made it about herself and him. "Now you can teach the baby about cars!" Or "We've missed you!" I was not included in this conversation at all. And what hurt me the most was when Amy messaged him saying, "Don't go away again!" And my husband stated "I'm not." (It still makes me nauseous.)

-If my husband EVER puts another woman before me, I am out of this relationship. If he EVER makes a commitment to another woman before me, I am done. And if he ever shows signs of any sort of emotional infidelity again, I want a divorce. These are my boundaries. 

That's probably what I'd say. Bad? Lol. 

The thing that stinks the most is that I remember most of my dreams, and almost twice a week I've been having a dream about my H and Amy. Good ones and bad ones. I've been ignoring them, but I definitely feel like it's getting worse. It started about 2 weeks ago. And I don't know if this is stupid, but I almost feel like I never got to even grieve about it. I was so focused on him and trying to win his trust, I was so focused on our communication and putting the friends situation to the side, that I wouldn't let myself think about it. I think I'm going to talk about it in my IC.


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## turnera

It's all going to work out, Pie. You really need to work on that patience. He's going to MC. He likes MC. He's becoming more amenable to what you need. He's learning techniques to deal with people who want things from him. Basically, he's learning what he was never taught - to stand up to people. That's a REALLY hard thing to learn if your parents didn't raise you with it. So give him time, ok? 

And the more you make this whole changing thing beneficial to him, the better YOU look to him. Try to remember that a month or two ago, you were - no offense - a shrill, controlling, selfish woman who just wanted stuff from him, just like everyone else in his life (parents, brother). You were NOT the person who gave him comfort and pride and admiration. 

But guess what? Amy DID! 

Even if he'd never cheat on you in his wildest dreams, Amy represented GOOD FEELINGS and you represented BAD FEELINGS, and when you gave him a hard time...why did he go over there? Because IT FELT GOOD.

This is why I keep pushing so hard for you to see the big picture, to look at your marriage from up above looking down, to see what HE sees. You can't make him stay away from her. You've found that out. But you CAN become the one person who makes him feel safe, admired, respected, and loved, so that he has NO REASON to go over there and get it from Amy.


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## PieOhMy

I'm just hate having dreams about it. That happens with everything, though. Which makes it hard for me to get things out of my head. Because during the day, even though I push them out of my head, my head I guess tries making sense of it while I'm sleeping. And if it's a bad dream, I wake up really annoyed lol. 

I hear you, Tunera. Patience. That's why I started a diary again lol. So I can say what I want to say to him without him hearing me yet.


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## AliceA

I do think that at some point you need to get it off your chest how that whole thing made you feel. I get what Turnera is saying too, but I don't think he should get a free pass for much longer. Holding it all back is obviously starting to affect you.


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## turnera

Don't misunderstand, I think it should be discussed thoroughly - at some point. But for now, as long as they are not in contact and as long as you have finances and abuse and parents to work through as well as getting on the same team COMFORTABLY so that he has no instinct to run to her again, I think those issues need to come first.


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## PieOhMy

Yeah. It's also affecting our sex life. At least for me. I know I should be having sex with my H, but it's very hard for me to do so sometimes. We probably haven't had sex for about three weeks. He's tried, I haven't wanted to. Nonetheless, his timing is terrible.

But I still feel hurt by him in so many ways. The therapy is great for both of us, but with it, a lot of things and feelings are surfacing for both of us. And I know one of the key things for men are sex, but it's hard for me to give myself to somebody when I'm still feeling very hurt by them.

Last night, he was so nice to me. He hasn't been nice to me for years. And I asked him, "Why are you being so nice to me lately?" And he said, "I don't know. I'm feeling nicer lately." And I just hugged him.


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## PieOhMy

What do you think about what I'd like to eventually say to him? Do you think any of it is out of line?


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## turnera

I'm not going to answer that yet, because I don't trust you to have enough patience not to blurt it out now. 

As for sex, why can't you give him a HJ or a BJ? Or even just a massage?


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## farsidejunky

Pie, as difficult as it may be, turning him down for sex will make this process take longer.

He is trying to connect with you. You are denying that connection. 

I am not saying you have to, or even that you should, lest I risk a thread jack into the endless debate about sex in marriage.

But know this; I promise you it is making the problems worse in his mind. Do with this information what you will.


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## turnera

fwiw, I hate sex. I have full-blown sex aversion due to FOO stuff. But in 35 years, I've only said no to him maybe 30 times, and usually only because I'm sick or too tired to stay awake. I get that you think you have to be gung-ho and happy about sex, in order to have it. But I would suggest that you rethink that belief. You didn't marry him saying 'as long as you make me happy, I'll give you sex.' People give each other sex all the time even if they're not 'feeling it' because, well, because they love each other and loving someone means wanting to make him/her happy. Not trying to dis you, but that sounds a bit selfish, to say 'I'm not happy with you, so no sex tonight!'


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## lucy999

turnera said:


> Not trying to dis you, but that sounds a bit selfish, to say 'I'm not happy with you, so no sex tonight!'


I agree. Pie, be careful because you don't want to turn sex into a reward/punishment system.


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## PieOhMy

I don't mean for it to be a punishment. That's not how I really see it. I just know I don't feel comfortable having sex with him right now. I think that's also coming from the abuse talk we started to have last week. Sometimes I don't trust him with my body, in all ways. If that makes sense.


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## turnera

I'm having a hard time with this abuse stuff. I can't really figure out just how much abuse is going on. And what precedes it. You've only given short answers as to what it's really like. Can you give more detail?


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## PieOhMy

Okay. Well...long story. If this wasn't anonymous, I would never share it. Only 4 people actually know. So here it goes:

I have a history of cutting. It started in 8th grade when I was sexually assaulted. I stopped in my Freshman year of high school. When my mother became ill, I did not start cutting. The actual cutting started when things went downhill between H and I, with the friends and family issues, my mother's illness getting worse, my father being an alcoholic. I think I had reached my breaking point when I felt betrayed by him four years ago. 

Anyways, I started cutting. Again. This is really embarrassing for me to share, so please be gentle with comments. My H tried to get me to stop several times with physical restraint, and I didn't like that. I think somewhere in there is when arguments got physical. Actually, it was really difficult, because he could tell when I was upset, and he wouldn't leave me alone. But at the times, that's all I wanted. I just wanted him to leave me alone. But he wouldn't, he'd follow me or keep me from leaving the room. Which actually triggered me more. He'd restrain me sometimes. And I hated him for that. I needed him to leave me alone, I just felt like he was adding to the commotion of my life. But when I needed him to talk to, to vent and lean on, he wasn't very supportive. He just kind of would sit there and not say anything. So I also felt very alone at times. The feelings were mixed. 

Anyways, there was a point where I was so mad at him for the past and for what I felt like harassment when I needed space, I started becoming really mean. By saying hurtful things such as "If you don't leave me alone I'm done with this relationship and I'm not going through with your immigration process." Or, "I need help, professional help, you're such a doormat to everybody in your life, I could never rely on you." "You're just like your parents, always taking the easy way out, running away from your problems or blaming it on everybody else." And I was actually cussing with all these and yelling, so you can imagine how bad it really was. Anyways, at one point, when I said one of these things, he blew a lid and got physical. Grabbing my throat, shoving me, slapping me. I sometimes fought back, sometimes I didn't. Sometimes I felt like I deserved it. And then I never fought back. And he gave me a black eye on vacation because I told him I was done with the relationship. And tore my ACL another time because I told him I was leaving the house, whether he liked it or not, that I needed air (during an argument). After the ACL it stopped. That's when it just became shoving and pushing or grabbing. It slowed down about 2 years ago once I calmed down a lot and started IC.

That's the truth. That's all of it. And I haven't been honest because I was afraid of what everyone would say. Because I wasn't ready to hear what everyone had to say. And I'm sorry.


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## turnera

Thanks for being honest. It really helps us give you more accurate advice. So what I see is a man who was afraid his wife would hurt herself and he felt it was his duty to stop her from doing it just like he'd stop anyone else from hurting her. So the not letting you leave the room and restraining you, let's just throw that stuff out the window; those are non-issues. Ok?

Now, the rest of the stuff, boy, I don't know. Normally, I'm the first one to tell a woman to leave a man if he lays a finger on her even once. But you seem to have developed this sick dance where you two egged each other on. I'm glad you're getting help and I assume this stuff is no longer going on, right?

And for the record, telling a person during an argument that you are leaving them - that's abuse, too. Because it was obviously done to hurt him. Try to remember that the next time you feel like throwing that out.

So...without knowing more, I'm going to say that as far as the abuse angle goes, it looks like it only happens when you two fight, correct? Therefore, here's my advice: STOP FIGHTING. And stop cutting. And stop threatening to leave him. And keep working on learning more about each other, on learning better steps to take, and on growing your love for each other. Stay in IC, stay in MC, and see if you can get him to agree to some IC for himself cos he has a BOATload of suppressed feelings and anger and fear and shame he needs to deal with. If you can do all that - and it takes time! - you two should have a great, happy marriage.


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## Tron

Sorry you have had so many issues, growing up, SA, etc. Those are very hard things to get through, virtually impossible to do on your own without counseling.

Have you been diagnosed with anything by your IC? PTSD, PD ?

Understand that things in your past, especially like sexual assault, abuse, alcoholism, etc. can have a serious impact on your interpersonal relationships, notably with those you are closest to.


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## turnera

Anyway, we still never touched on you not wanting sex because of the abuse issue. Please expand so we can understand. Are you just saying you're mad at him or are you saying he has a history of pinning you down or something?


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## lucy999

(((Pie))) Thank you for your honesty. You are brave.

Nothing else to add, except I'm sorry you're hurting so much, have been through so much, and I hope it gets better for you.

Sending you much love and comfort through the good old internet.


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## PieOhMy

Hi, sorry, was really busy! Thank you for all your kind comments. I didn't want to tell you one thing without telling you the other, so I told you all of it lol. 

The sex thing really is just me feeling like, if I can't trust him to not physically and emotionally hurt me, then I don't feel secure enough to have sex with him, it's sometimes hard for me to want to do anything sexually with him.

And I did actually give him a BJ last week when he tried to have sex because I did not feel like having sex. With a BJ I felt in control and that he wasn't really having me, sexually. 

But I was always like this, probably because of the rape. I was never into just having sex with anybody. Don't get me wrong, I've had my drunk one night stand. But I was more the "tease" of the group rather than the "sl*t" or the "prude." Actually I was called prude sometimes lol. 

I was very into having friends with benefits. I had one friend with benefits that lasted four years on and off. But the point was that, I always needed to feel close and trusting with the guy I was having sex with, and I think that's still something for me. Which is why when my H and I aren't doing good, it's like I don't want him having access to my body in that way. 

Also, sometimes we share a nice "sexy time" (good night of sex lol) but then the next day we get into a fight and he hurts me with his words and it makes me feel taken advantage of. 

When the friend situation thing happened, only two days before that, because I was trying to better our sex life and show him I'm willing to try new things and wear sexier nakey clothes, I gave him the time of his life. But then, of course, he broke my heart two days later when he decided to talk to his friends knowing it would hurt me. Situations like that have made me feel almost scared to have sex with him because I'm afraid to get hurt later and feel like it didn't mean anything.


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## turnera

My DD24 has a friend who became one of those people who was a FWB for lots of people. In high school, she was the one expected to become a doctor. Korean immigrant parents. She washed out in college, had a mental breakdown, sad story, always compared herself to DD24 who had parents who supported her and allowed her to be whatever she wanted, while this friend's parents expected her to get straight As and become a doctor. Meanwhile, I just told DD24 to enjoy herself and do what made her happy. This friend has had a few dozen sex partners, drugs, dropped out of college, and has now 'graduated' to being one of those people who draws blood at a blood center. 

She sought out all the wrong things. Meanwhile, my DD24 was a virgin until 21, because I focused on her accomplishing things in life and trusting herself, instead of 'accomplishing' for the family.

Pie, what matters? What matters in your real life? Truth? Connection? Integrity?

Figure it out.


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## PieOhMy

The cutting ended 3 years ago. I went into an intense therapy program and then followed up with an IC, which is the same IC I'm seeing now. Been seeing her once a week. She's awesome. 

I was originally diagnosed with Bipolar II disorder, but my IC and current psychiatrist believe I have the more depression side of it rather than the manic. They also believe it is more situational. Example: after the sexual assault I started cutting, during my BIL/ex's physical abuse I started becoming more aggressive, and then with my mother's illness and death, that's when the anxiety kicked in and basically everything else, like the depression, the cutting and aggressiveness. It was a nice piece of cake lol, jk.

I think when my H came along, I was barely holding on. My mom's illness, my father's drinking, and then trying to juggle work and school, I was on the brink of losing my mind. And when H came into the picture and I fell in love with him, I felt like I could finally rely on someone besides myself (i look back at that now and feel really stupid for thinking I could rely on someone at such a bad time). But then he did what he did with his friends and family. And that was nothing. I had to handle the problems. I had to report his brother to the police department so he'd stop threatening me and my family. I had to go with him to visit his mom only to be insulted over and over again and be told that I did not know what family was because I was adopted. So I had to put my foot down and tell her that I wasn't going to stand for her treating us that way instead of my H doing a damn thing. And then as for his friends. Well you guys know that story already. And even after stating my limits with all of that, my H still continued to let them all rag on me, and thats when I gave him the ultimatums. 

I think I started cutting when the fights got really bad. My mother was still ill. I need a timeline lol, so much was going on. 

I'm trying to answer all of your questions. But the best thing I still feel like I learned from all of this, and it's more for myself than him, that I should have never given him the ultimatums. That I should have let him just seen for himself what his actions would have resulted in, and just WALKED AWAY. Lol, but life is never that simple.


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## turnera

So basically, no one has ever protected you fully?


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## AliceA

You've had a lot to deal with in your life, but I think you have grown a lot over these last few years, from what you've told us. I actually think there's a risk that you will outgrow your DH if he never makes that same choice. You found him at a time when life had beaten you down. I think you accepted a spouse then that you probably wouldn't accept now. I just hope he can learn and grow enough to be a part of the relationship that you have come to want.


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## PieOhMy

My mom did. But that ended almost 6 years ago when she got sick.


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## PieOhMy

5 years ago*. She got sick when I was 21, and thats when I started taking care of everyone/everything else. And I got with H when I was 22. Started cutting about 6 months later. Mommy died when I was 23. And I stopped cutting about 6 months later after that. I think that's pretty accurate.


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## MyTurn

PieOhMy,
just food for thought,
your husband is not supposed to be your father 
and you are not supposed to be his mother.
Take care.


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## PieOhMy

Trying to get there.


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## PieOhMy

A lot of my closest friends have stated that they don't think I would have married my H if my mom hadn't gotten ill. I agree with them.


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## turnera

Interesting. What does that mean in terms of your marriage?


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## PieOhMy

The marriage was so premature. Maybe that I lowered some of my standards because of what was going on in my life at the time. I have to think about that one lol.


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## PieOhMy

I really can't put my finger on it. All I can really say is that before my mother got sick, I was very assertive, confident and focused. Full time work, full time school, exercising regularly, full social life and I kind of had a list of standards for the men I dated. My H met most of them but the big NOs were his immigration status and the background/family he came from. However, I think I would have still dated him even if he was the brother of my ex because my relationship with his brother meant so little to me and seemed so distant. What should have stopped me from dating him was my H not handling his brother and protecting me, not because of my BIL himself.


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## turnera

No, I mean you're married now. What does this knowledge do to affect that? Or does it?


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## PieOhMy

Nothing really. If anything, if I were to share words of wisdom, I'd say don't marry until you're truly ready! Lol.


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## PieOhMy

Btw. Quick update. 

In our last session, my H got very upset. During the time that he was out of the house, my ex-bf stopped by one day while my dad was home to see how I was doing. I deleted my Facebook years ago and changed my number years ago. The last time I saw him was about 6 months before my marriage. Anyways, I never told my H about his visit. Mainly because I did not believe it was important at the time. Nothing happened, I gave my thanks to my ex for visiting but that I was married now and there was a reason why he did not have my number anymore. He kindly took the hint and left after that, the whole conversation lasted about ten minutes. 

Anyways, I said in the last session that I wanted honesty and no secrets in our marriage. No hiding, no lies or deceit, no lying by omission, nothing of the sort. And I felt that I should tell him about the visit. That was obviously a very bad idea. My H was so angry and didn't speak to me for almost 2 days. He said he felt like it was a double standard because I was hiding that from him for almost 3 months and that he felt like I was better than him for not doing what I constantly preach.

I really didn't see it was important, I told him because I knew it was something he'd want to know and did not feel comfortable or safe in our communications to share that with him yet. He was just very angry. He later than accused me of actually reaching out to my ex and that's why he stopped by. He said we were not good and that I lost his trust. And I told him that I did not reach out to my ex and that it was absolutely coincidental. I apologized for not telling him sooner and that I was more concerned about other things. I also told him that I felt he was so focused on me manipulating him, that he would see me telling him as some sort of threat or as throwing it in his face since we were seriously on the verge of divorcing. He didn't really want to hear it. I left it saying that I didn't appreciate his accusations and that if he really thinks i would do that, then he was right, we're not good at all. 

It ended with him texting me saying he loves me and that he wants to make it work but next time something like that happens and I do not tell him, he's not putting up with it. I said okay, and when i tell him, to not drive at 95mph home from the therapist's office. We kind of laughed it off after that. 

Anyways, the next day he accused me of trying to change him from the primary on our financing for our car, and make myself primary and him the co-owner. I told him that he needed to stop making these accusations, and I asked him why he continued. He said because he doesn't really trust me anymore. 

I told him this: I can understand why you may not trust me or may feel betrayed. But it happens to be something we are both going through right now. You completely lost my trust and broke my heart three months ago, and everyday I've been working on that. And that he will have to do the same if he wants this marriage to work. But the accusations have got to stop. 

He asked what I was talking about that he did three months ago and how he lost my trust.

I wanted to whack him with a frying pan. I ended up saying: I do not feel ready to go into the subject, it still hurts far too much. But I will give you the basics so you know what I'm talking about. Three months ago, the thing with Amy, John and her brother. You decided to talk to them, knowing how much it would hurt me. We had a plan to see them together, and then in the middle of an argument that was about to make or break our marriage, you went to their house, knowing how much it would hurt me. And then, you made a commitment to another woman, knowing it would hurt me. 

He asked how he made a commitment to Amy. 

I told him that I had seen ALL his messages. Even before he deleted the ones he didn't want me to see. And then I told him to never put another woman before my feelings again. 

He said okay. He started trying to ask more questions. I told him that I was not ready to go further and that we can bring it up in MC when we're both ready. I told him that I thought it was great he stated his boundaries with his text message the other day, but that now he has heard mine as well. 
We left it as that. We were fine with the rest of the day, and haven't talked about it since. 
What do you think?


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## turnera

Excellent!


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## PieOhMy

Yay! Thanks! I was so mad at him inside though. If this was a cartoon, I would have had an anvil drop on his head when he asked what he did three months ago.


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## PieOhMy

Also. We touched base with the physical abuse. I told him that I still couldn't understand why he continued to want to hurt me. He said he was not happy with what he did and that he truly is sorry. He said that he thinks about it everytime he sees the scar on my knee from my ACL surgery. The therapist asked why I was thinking about it so much. I told him that on our first vacation together, he gave me a black eye. And that last year's vacation, he shoved me. When we went away snowboarding one weekend, he grabbed my legs and tried dragging me out of the house to leave. And that I guess I get a little nervous and sad about vacations/getaways because I'm scared that's going to happen again. And our vacation is coming up next week. H said that he doesn't even remember what led up to those times, but that he just remembers feeling so angry and that he focused all his anger on me. The therapist said that H needs to walk away and perhaps even state that he feels like he's getting very angry and may hurt me, and walk away. Or to perhaps come up with a code word that means stop everything and walk away, and come back in an hour. Then the therapist tried figuring out where my H's violence may have come from. They were talking about his culture and his family. That when they left his country as a refugee, that he witnessed several crimes and fights. And then they went into how his brother (my BIL), was always very aggressive and competitive. And that they sometimes used to get into physical fights as well. So they kind of explored it a little bit. And then that's when we got into the conversation about honesty.


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## turnera

Hon, a black eye, dragging you out of a house - holy cow, that's huge. That's why I asked for more information. First, YOU must ensure you are not provoking things; that's a given. And I think you've matured enough to know that.

But honestly, that paints a completely different picture about the abuse. And frankly, as low as MY self esteem is, I would NEVER EVER stay with a man who has hit me in the face.

NEVER.

So my advice is, if he is not willing to go into a professional anger management program and STAY in it for at least 6 months, I would be divorcing him.


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## PieOhMy

The black eye I definitely provoked, that was when things were really bad. The dragging me I didn't feel I provoked. Or the shoving, I didn't. I would like to see how he does with MC a little longer before I jump on the anger management. I did say in the last session that if he ever put his hands on me like that again, that I wanted him out of the house and not back until he entered an anger management program.


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## turnera

Not back in the house until after he COMPLETES an anger management program.


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## farsidejunky

Holy ****, Pie. How is any of this "preventing" you from hurting yourself?!?

I'm with Turnera on this.


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## PieOhMy

This was years ago now. I know it's no excuse, and I should have kicked him out of the house then. But he hasn't done anything to that extreme for over two years. That stopped after the ACL. Now it's the shoving or pushing through me thing. Which is why I said what I did in the last session. I just don't want it ever coming back. Yes, there were times I provoked him, there were times I didn't. But I just don't ever want it getting like that again. 

I'd really like to come up with a code word.

And yes, it was not helping my case in not cutting myself then, but once I got help for myself, I was able to go to a better place in my mind, and thats when I really started to see the physical abuse calm down. But then there was still the mental abuse. And now here we are, I'm in IC, we're both in MC, and I'm hoping our marriage never goes back to that.


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## farsidejunky

Red- time out, things are at the point of out of hand
Yellow - things are escalating and will reach red if they continue

Pretty simple. Just get his buy in first so you don't get the trout look from him.


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## PieOhMy

What is the trout look? Lol, I'm sorry, I've never heard that before.


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## PieOhMy

I think that's good. I like those code words.


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## farsidejunky

PieOhMy said:


> What is the trout look? Lol, I'm sorry, I've never heard that before.


Sorry, I thought that was more common. It was something a group of friends used to say when we had no freaking clue what was being said.

The trout look is that look you get with the mouth slightly open, eyes sort of wide, generally confused. 

It is probably the same look you got when I mentioned trout look...


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## PieOhMy

Lol, okay. I get it. And that sounds good, maybe he and I can discuss it in MC.


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## AliceA

While I think your honesty with him is a good thing, I think that he will continue to use it as a way to minimise what he has done. Trying to bring Amy back into your lives after what she did to you, promising her he would stay in her life. You did nothing of the sort with your ex. He didn't do anything to your husband, he didn't try and break up your marriage, yet you didn't try to hold him in your life, you didn't promise you'd never leave him again. Your husband on the other hand... well, that's a whole different kettle of fish.

As for the abuse, I think your tolerance should be NIL at this point. Anger management? Should've been done and over with by now if he had an ounce of real regret and determination to be a better person.

He shoves or pushes you or worse - tell him to pack his bags, get a divorce. You don't have to live like that. At some point, you have to realise it's just not worth it. With everything else you have to deal with, honestly, make it the last straw. In your head, make it the DEAL BREAKER of all DEAL BREAKERS. He touches you, even the tiniest push, that's IT, he's OUT.


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## Plan 9 from OS

Are you getting yet Pie??? GD, I swear you have Stockholm syndrome with your fvcking inlaws... 

I'm sorry, but I still cannot wrap my head around the idea that you MARRIED the brother of your abusive boyfriend. Your friends are right. You've spiraled out of control because of your mother. IMHO, you are still listless and out of control. Maybe not so bad after some time has passed after your mother's death. But YOU NEED HELP!!! YOU NEED INDIVIDUAL COUNSELING!!! YOU NEED TO DIVORCE THIS TRASH!!!

I'm sorry if this offends anyone in this thread, but I think most people are trying to help you put lipstick on a pig. Maybe I'm wrong and you already got the help that you need. However, if you were "out of sorts" when you married your husband, strongly consider tying up the loose ends during your time of grief and get that fresh start that you need.

I see that you're going off on vacation. Did you start paying your dad rent or at least saved the equivalent of rent plus utilities in a savings account?


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## turnera

Go into your next MC session and say this, before anything else gets started: "I want to say something. I've done a lot of thinking and I've decided something. You have given me a black eye. You have dragged me out of a room. You've prevented me from leaving the room. These are things that a woman should not have to fear her husband doing. And I do. So I want to make something clear, in front of a witness, that if you ever touch me again in anything but a loving way, the next action I take will be to see a lawyer for a divorce. Now, you can sign up for your anger management course NOW or you can do it later if you think you can control yourself. But know this: you have had all the second and third chances you're going to get in this area."


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## turnera

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I see that you're going off on vacation. Did you start paying your dad rent or at least saved the equivalent of rent plus utilities in a savings account?


Inquiring minds want to know.


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## PieOhMy

Yes, I believe I posted earlier that H and I had a very successful finance. We put his parents at $150/mo and put away into Savings will be $1200/mo. And just for the record, the vacation is down at my Aunt's shore house, so it's not something coming out of our pocket. My Aunt and Uncle will be there too.


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## PieOhMy

And I pretty much said that in our last session. I didn't even give the option of anger management, I told him it would be over and I'd want him to be out of the house immediately. If we get into the abuse discussion again, I would, definitely say it again. And to be honest, I don't think I really want to offer the anger management offer, I would just want it to be over.


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## PieOhMy

My last straw was three months ago. When I did kick him out. He doesn't have anymore chances. There's not much that I can do about the past except do what I can to protect myself from it happening again. It's done. It's there. I have a BIL that's was my abusive ex-bf. I lost it when my mother got ill abd get reminded of it everyday when I see my scars. But I'm happy with what I've succeeded at and becoming a more happy and confident person. I'm doing my best to make it work with my H no matter what everyone says and how much BS we've been through. Like I said before, the MC was my last shot. If this doesn't help, I'm done with this marriage. 

I don't know what you want me to say. I hear what you're saying Plan 9, but what's done is done, I can only fix what I can for myself and move forward.


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## PieOhMy

And this is my fresh start. With my husband. And he can either be in it, or stay behind. But I'll be trying to better my life either way.


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## PieOhMy

Breeze, I agree about your comment about him minimizing what he's done. I feel he's also looking for whatever he can to be mad at me about so he can feel better about himself since he really hasn't been that great. I do plan on pointing this out on MC to see what he's feeling. I also believe he's having a lot of jealousy about the whole ex-bf. He at one point stated how he doesn't really see why else my exes would reach out me unless I contacted them (this isn't the first time an ex showed up at my door or sent a letter).

And I will not tolerate any abuse anymore, which is why I stated what I did last session. I made it very clear, there was no sugar coating. And the therapist even said, "Well that's very clear and I'm happy that you shared that with him." And I was happy.


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## turnera

You're right. I forgot you said you did that. My bad. And good job.


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## AliceA

You got together fairly young, how many ex bfs are there? Lol. As for why they show up, they're still looking for a partner to settle with I imagine, and you're still in the same place and easy to find. It's not your fault they're out there looking still.

Feels a bit like a waiting game for him to screw up. I don't know if it's just me, maybe I'm too doubtful of his ability to change the way he thinks. I'm guessing there must be a lot more good moments between you both than it's possible to imagine here.

I'm sure you must've said them before, but just to balance things out a bit, what do you love about him right now? What little things do you enjoy together on a regular basis?


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## PieOhMy

A guy I was just beginning to date, wasn't official, just seeing how it went first, Rob, he sent me a letter. My friend with benefits, the one I had for years, he sent me two cards -not saying much but just wishing me well, no phone numbers or anything. And then my friend Alex, whom I spoke of earlier in this thread, the one my H has a problem with because I kissed him once, once stopped by unannounced as well. And now this ex-bf Mike stopped by recently because he and I used to work together down the street from my house lol. 

What I love about my husband: If you can believe it, he's pretty funny. He makes me laugh a lot. He is great with kids, I love to watch him with my little cousins, he's so good with them! He's really a hard worker, very strong work ethic. We both started working when we were 14. And I swear I think he's only taken one week of sick days in his whole life because of a back injury once. He actually helps around the house. Not a lot lol, but if I ask him to do something, he usually does it, grumpy, but does it. We like to do the same stuff, we have the same hobbies. He's always been supportive about my weight (I gained weight after my mom got sick) and he never said anything about it, when I was trying to lose it he was very sensitive and supportive. He always made me comfortable with my body. He can actually go without his phone, I hate it when people can't be without their phones. If he forgets it, it's no big deal. There's the little things, like pulling out chairs, always paying for EVERYTHING and getting me big gifts (Don't worry, we've had this talk last Christmas, we're going to budget how much we spend on each other's gifts from now on), I was used to doing a lot of heavy lifting by myself, but he always insists on doing it for me.There's several other things that are just beginning to resurface again after we stayed MC. Like the sensitivity all around has gotten like more like it used to be before things got bad between us, even the comforting. And he cooks for us sometimes now instead of just me. And I'm able to talk to him about a lot of stuff, and now we're getting better at talking about the hard stuff. Hopefully.


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## PieOhMy

Our days are fairly good. He kisses me goodbye in the morning before he leaves for work. We sometimes text during the day, and the conversations are usually something funny. We both joke a lot. If I'm home, he comes home to have lunch or I sometimes drop it off to him (he works two minutes down the street). When we come home from work, I usually cook dinner and we watch a movie or go for a walk, sometimes we just go for a drive with our dog and bring him to the park. Then we go to bed.


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## turnera

Sounds like an awesome relationship. I have one suggestion. See if you have a grocery store or other place that teaches cooking lessons, and sign the two of you up for some to take together. It will help him feel better about himself in the kitchen, it will be good bonding, plus you'll get more enjoyable meals from knowing how to do new stuff. It's a little expensive at least here ($70/person), but it was a really enjoyable thing to do.


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## PieOhMy

That sounds like a lot of fun, actually. And are relationship is actually really good like 75% of the time. But that other 25% of the time it's bad, it used to be really really bad. And sure I'm being pretty hopeful, but ever since we started MC, that bad has actually become bearable and at even times, positive. Because we're able to resolve the issues without things getting out of hand. I just never want us getting back to how it was. 

We're probably going to end up opening up with the ex-bf thing tonight. Because that's where we left off when my H walked out of the session. I do want to point out that I feel like he's going to hold on to this very stupid little thing. So he feels better about himself and minimize what he's done. But we will see how it goes. I hope he doesn't bring up the friends thing. Or tries to compare this to that. I'm still way too angry to do that.


----------



## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> I do want to point out that I feel like he's going to hold on to this very stupid little thing. So he feels better about himself and minimize what he's done.


Yes, it's important that you state that. So HE has to acknowledge it.


----------



## PieOhMy

So I totally forgot to point that out in tonight's session. It went good though. But if he keeps holding this Mike thing over my head, like if he brings it up again, then I'm going to say something about it. 

And from how upset I got with him last week when he asked what he did wrong three months ago (the friends thing), I think it's going to be a few more weeks until I'm ready to talk about his friends. I originally wanted to bring it up a little sooner, get some closure since we never discussed how we were going to move forward with it, but I really wanted to bite his head off when he asked what he did wrong three months ago. I really did.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blossom Leigh said:


> No, I think its good. My response to you is to just to solidify in your mind to no longer accept that kind of treatment and create the new paradigm in your home. Don't apologize for it. Its right and reasonable. But get that vision rock solid in your head by studying what it looks like with good resources like Boundaries, You Don't Have to Take it Anymore. Given the fact that he purposely rams your body with his when walking by *I'm surprised he hasn't hit you already.* Nip it in the bud before he does.





PieOhMy said:


> Also. We touched base with the physical abuse. I told him that I still couldn't understand why he continued to want to hurt me. He said he was not happy with what he did and that he truly is sorry. He said that he thinks about it everytime he sees the scar on my knee from my ACL surgery. The therapist asked why I was thinking about it so much. *I told him that on our first vacation together, he gave me a black eye.* And that last year's vacation, he shoved me. When we went away snowboarding one weekend, he grabbed my legs and tried dragging me out of the house to leave. And that I guess I get a little nervous and sad about vacations/getaways because I'm scared that's going to happen again. And our vacation is coming up next week. H said that he doesn't even remember what led up to those times, but that he just remembers feeling so angry and that he focused all his anger on me. The therapist said that H needs to walk away and perhaps even state that he feels like he's getting very angry and may hurt me, and walk away. Or to perhaps come up with a code word that means stop everything and walk away, and come back in an hour. Then the therapist tried figuring out where my H's violence may have come from. They were talking about his culture and his family. That when they left his country as a refugee, that he witnessed several crimes and fights. And then they went into how his brother (my BIL), was always very aggressive and competitive. And that they sometimes used to get into physical fights as well. So they kind of explored it a little bit. And then that's when we got into the conversation about honesty.


Pie... why did you stay silent on the black eye when I mentioned TWO MONTHS AGO I was surprised he hadn't hit you already? I read the writing on the wall that he was VERY capable of this and yet you remained silent that it had already happened. I can tell you why.... its what abused victims do, stay silent, and the ONLY way to break the cycle is to break the silence. *NEVER* remain silent on what has happened and how severe NO MATTER what you feel you did to "cause" it. 

There is NO excuse unless he is trying to save his own life. Educate yourself on abuse at all levels. You need to be aware of what is called Stockholm Syndrome. 

Leslie Morgan Steiner: Why domestic violence victims don't leave | TED Talk | TED.com


I KNEW this guy was a full on abuser. I don't think your counselors are doing you any favors at this point if they are not addressing that head on and hard core. Thank God you have no children right now. Does your Dad know he gave you a black eye?


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## PieOhMy

No, he doesn't. And because I was not ready to share it with you. What are my therapists suppose to be doing? I'm confused. I thought my IC was very good.


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## PieOhMy

I'm not sure how to respond to you Blossom. I don't believe I have Stockholm Syndrome, nor do I believe you can diagnose me through an internet forum. I do appreciate your honesty, though. I will read your link tonight. But as I said before, what's done is done. I'd like to belIeve that he will never do that to me again, as I'd like to believe that I will never do certain things again. But only time will tell.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> No, he doesn't. And because I was not ready to share it with you. What are my therapists suppose to be doing? I'm confused. I thought my IC was very good.


You need to tell your Dad asap about every physical event that has happened between you and your H.

You also need to be very honest with yourself and decide to never hide it again.

You cannot hide domestic violence and you shouldn't try. That is the very thing that keeps it alive. 

The IC is not addressing this behavior head on. Has he even mentioned Codepency, Stockholm Syndrome or tested you for PTSD? Has he told you to break the silence with your family? All of those things should be happening.


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## turnera

I can see wanting to give someone a second chance after hitting me in the face, especially if we have kids. I just hope you truly won't give him a third chance if it happens again. Unfortunately, I don't believe you won't.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> I'm not sure how to respond to you Blossom. I don't believe I have Stockholm Syndrome, nor do I believe you can diagnose me through an internet forum. I do appreciate your honesty, though. I will read your link tonight. But as I said before, what's done is done. I'd like to belIeve that he will never do that to me again, as I'd like to believe that I will never do certain things again. But only time will tell.


I said you need to be AWARE of it.

Only you can self assess or get it done through a professional. I didn't diagnose you. BUT I DID CALL THIS ONE THAT HE WOULD HIT YOU. Because I've lived it multiple times and recognize ALL the signals. 

Ignore me if you want.

Sticking your head in the sand about this fact isn't going to help you. It will ONLY serve to make sure it happens again.

I am the warning flare...

Pay attention or not

your choice


----------



## PieOhMy

And you're absolutely right. I used to think I somehow deserved it because I slapped him and shoved him a few times myself back then. I even threw books at his head once. And I used to think because I was provoking him, it was okay. But when he tore my ACL, I think that's when I realized it was so wrong. Because no matter what, it was never okay for a man to hurt a woman, because they will always be stronger and bigger. They'll always create so much more damage. And I realized that when he tore my ACL. I couldn't to certain stuff for almost a year. I felt so debilitated. And he had done that to me. Fortunately, after that, he didn't ever go to that extreme again. That's when the shoving and grabbing my wrists came into play. But I'm done with that to, which is why I stated what I did in counseling. Because I'm ready now to not put up with that. Because I feel I deserve better. 

I know this is bad, but when he was talking to me about the whole ex-bf thing, I just wanted to tell him what I felt that day when Mike stopped by. I wanted to tell him that I don't have to put up with any of his sh*t. That maybe, just MAYBE, these guys reached out to me because they actually saw a lot of good things in me. I wanted to tell him that I'm actually a pretty good catch when I don't have everything on my husband's side of the marriage working against me. I wanted to tell him that I saw that as a sign, that if things didn't work out between him and I, that I'd be JUST FINE. But I didn't say that. I'd like to say that, but I don't think it's necessary at this point.


----------



## PieOhMy

Both counselors have brought up codependency. And I also think that I would be willing to leave him if he did that again. I don't know, something changed when I kicked him out of the house. I felt stronger. And I still feel stronger now. I guess we will see.

But I don't really understand how telling my dad is a good thing. He's an alcoholic and also the same guy that asked what I did wrong when I kicked my H out. 

My IC and MC both know about it, as well as two of my friends and two of my family members. But not my dad.


----------



## PieOhMy

When I kicked him out, I felt like I found my voice again. If that makes sense.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> And you're absolutely right. I used to think I somehow deserved it because I slapped him and shoved him a few times myself back then. I even threw books at his head once. And I used to think because I was provoking him, it was okay. But when he tore my ACL, I think that's when I realized it was so wrong. Because no matter what, it was never okay for a man to hurt a woman, because they will always be stronger and bigger. They'll always create so much more damage. And I realized that when he tore my ACL. I couldn't to certain stuff for almost a year. I felt so debilitated. And he had done that to me. Fortunately, after that, he didn't ever go to that extreme again. That's when the shoving and grabbing my wrists came into play. But I'm done with that to, which is why I stated what I did in counseling. Because I'm ready now to not put up with that. Because I feel I deserve better.
> 
> I know this is bad, but when he was talking to me about the whole ex-bf thing, I just wanted to tell him what I felt that day when Mike stopped by. I wanted to tell him that I don't have to put up with any of his sh*t. That maybe, just MAYBE, these guys reached out to me because they actually saw a lot of good things in me. I wanted to tell him that I'm actually a pretty good catch when I don't have everything on my husband's side of the marriage working against me. I wanted to tell him that I saw that as a sign, that if things didn't work out between him and I, that I'd be JUST FINE. But I didn't say that. I'd like to say that, but I don't think it's necessary at this point.


This is good.. I see progress, but I still see too much pvssy footin around with the domestic violence issues. Past, present or future. In my situation I resolved it in my mind that I in every way would be OK without my H and I also put him on notice that if he ever laid a hand on me again I would be calling the cops and pressing charges without batting an eye. I put HIM on notice that it would no longer be accepted nor tolerated and that any future events would result in pressing criminal charges. This stuff is no joke, Pie. 

You have to be ruthless about the violence. That stand has to be rock solid. And yes, you will be ok with out him... I am very glad to hear that. 

Glad the counselors mentioned codependency, but they should have taken it further and encouraged criminal charges if he ever does it again. That is NOT ok. 

When did you kick him out? Is he still out now? 

Sorry I'm not tight up to speed on this thread... my plate has been extremely full.


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## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> *He's an alcoholic* and also the same guy that *asked what I did wrong when I kicked my H out*.
> 
> My IC and MC both know about it, as well as two of my friends and two of my family members. But not my dad.


You have been born and bred to be submissive to, and codependent of, men, through your dad's alcoholism.

Have you been attending Alanon? That's probably your greatest chance of finding your strength.


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## PieOhMy

My IC wants me to attend Alanon meetings. 

How does my dad being an alcoholic make make submissive? Just curious.


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## PieOhMy

And my IC did state that I need to leave the relationship if he ever did that again. And not to wait to report it either. But we never really went into it more than that.


----------



## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> My IC wants me to attend Alanon meetings.
> 
> How does my dad being an alcoholic make make submissive? Just curious.





> The Laundry List – 14 Traits of an Adult Child of an Alcoholic
> 
> We became isolated and afraid of people and authority figures.
> 
> We became approval seekers and lost our identity in the process.
> 
> We are frightened of angry people and any personal criticism.
> 
> We either become alcoholics, marry them or both, or find another compulsive personality such as a workaholic to fulfill our sick abandonment needs.
> 
> We live life from the viewpoint of victims and we are attracted by that weakness in our love and friendship relationships.
> 
> We have an overdeveloped sense of responsibility and it is easier for us to be concerned with others rather than ourselves; this enables us not to look too closely at our own faults, etc.
> 
> We get guilt feelings when we stand up for ourselves instead of giving in to others.
> 
> We became addicted to excitement.
> 
> We confuse love and pity and tend to "love" people we can "pity" and "rescue."
> 
> We have "stuffed" our feelings from our traumatic childhoods and have lost the ability to feel or express our feelings because it hurts so much (Denial).
> 
> We judge ourselves harshly and have a very low sense of self-esteem.
> 
> We are dependent personalities who are terrified of abandonment and will do anything to hold on to a relationship in order not to experience painful abandonment feelings, which we received from living with sick people who were never there emotionally for us.
> 
> Alcoholism is a family disease; and we became para-alcoholics and took on the characteristics of that disease even though we did not pick up the drink.
> 
> Para-alcoholics are reactors rather than actors.


Adult Children of Alcoholics


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Is it resolved in YOUR mind to follow that advice...

Alanon and

Leave upon next event WITH criminal charges immediately?


And please no longer poke the bull... Unwise.


I can tell you aren't following the IC's advice for Alanon if you have to ask how an alcoholic parent can produce a submissive adult child.

This 2 x 4 brought to you today courtesy of me.

Dont give the DV lip service, hit that crap like a freight train. You have to have unwaivering resolve.

How would your Dad react if he knew you had a black eye, was drug by your feet tearing your ACL?


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## turnera

He'd ask her what she did to deserve it, obviously.

How do you think she LEARNED to accept abuse?


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## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> He'd ask her what she did to deserve it, obviously.
> 
> How do you think she LEARNED to accept abuse?


Thats not always the case. I agree that happens a lot, but there are exceptions. Mine was one of them.


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## PieOhMy

Wow. That list sounds pretty accurate. Might be something I bring up in my own IC. Abd I did go to one Alanon meeting, once. I didn't like it. It seemed very religious and I'm not religious at all.


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## PieOhMy

I feel like my father would make matters worse for me. Which is probably why I felt comfortable telling other family members and friends but not him.


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## turnera

My H isn't an alcoholic (but his dad was), but he is VERY dysfunctional - insecure, controlling, passive aggressive, guilt-tripper. He has done a real number on our DD24 in terms of questioning her actions, criticizing her friends and her decisions, telling her what HE would have done, on and on. I, on the other hand, compensated for that by being open and honest and understanding and NEVER judging her. 

Guess which one of us knows everything about her?

Sure isn't him. In fact, we often resort to NOT telling him things about her life, just to keep him from making her life miserable. So trust me, I get it. He hasn't earned the right to know her secrets.


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## PieOhMy

It's funny because I don't really remember much of my father's alcoholism, I feel like my mom did a pretty good job of shielding the worst of it from me. But still, knowing and seeing/hearing what I did, I'm sure was enough. And I'm sure the sexual assault didn't help.


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## PieOhMy

I'm not trying to be fresh, it's just hard to understand what everyone is saying. It's sometimes overwhelming. I don't want to have the personality of an adult child of an alcoholic. Nor of someone with Stockholm Syndrome. Oof.


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## turnera

Please understand that the human mind is an EXTREMELY complex thing. And no two minds are exactly the same. It's a fascinating, complicated combination of personal experiences, combined with what kind of siblings you have, and what kind of parents you had (as well as THEIR parents), and what school was like for you (bullies or not, excelling or not, etc.), what kind of temperament you have vs. what kind your spouse has...you can see how many variables there are.

So please understand that there IS no 'pigeonhole' in which you belong or have to be part of, ok? It just helps people like us generalize what kinds of things to look out for, and solutions to look for as well. There is no one solution for anyone. We're just trying to give you more information so you can find what fits your situation.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> I'm not trying to be fresh, it's just hard to understand what everyone is saying. It's sometimes overwhelming. I don't want to have the personality of an adult child of an alcoholic. Nor of someone with Stockholm Syndrome. Oof.


Our goal is to bring awareness of patterns that may exist in your world so you can make informed decisions about them to improve your circumstances, no more no less. Help you walk towards health, not stay in dysfunction if you will. Leaving you in the dark does not serve you. 

If the patterns are there it was/is not your fault they are there. What is your responsibility, if you do find that they indeed are there, is to choose how best to keep them from destroying your relationships and passing forward the dysfunction you grew up in. 

I have a question about your ACL that your husband tore.... when you went to the doctor, what did you tell them happened?

If your Dad is not safe, don't worry about it, but I am glad others close to you know. Keep it that way.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

And just so you are aware.....

The ACL is believed to withstand about 500 pounds of pressure *before* failure or tearing 

Normal activities apply about 100 lbs of force on the ACL. -


----------



## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> When I kicked him out,* I felt like I found my voice again*. If that makes sense.


I meant to bring this up earlier.

IMO, this is the most important thing you've ever said here. Why? Because it proves that when you LIVE with him, when you GO ALONG with him, you felt submissive, you felt like you couldn't be yourself, you felt like you had to protect yourself. 

A marriage is supposed to be an EQUAL PARTNERSHIP, where you feel safe to be yourself while still meeting the other person's needs. Where you can tell them anything. Where you are friends. Where you can SAY when you are feeling hurt by the other person and not fear repercussions.

So try to keep this feeling you had in mind as you work through y'all's issues, ok? That feeling you felt when you kicked him out? You should have that all the time. Work toward that. For BOTH of you.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> I meant to bring this up earlier.
> 
> IMO, this is the most important thing you've ever said here. Why? Because it proves that when you LIVE with him, when you GO ALONG with him, you felt submissive, you felt like you couldn't be yourself, you felt like you had to protect yourself.
> 
> A marriage is supposed to be an EQUAL PARTNERSHIP, where you feel safe to be yourself while still meeting the other person's needs. Where you can tell them anything. Where you are friends. Where you can SAY when you are feeling hurt by the other person and not fear repercussions.
> 
> So try to keep this feeling you had in mind as you work through y'all's issues, ok? That feeling you felt when you kicked him out? You should have that all the time. Work toward that. For BOTH of you.


Totally agree.


----------



## PieOhMy

I really hate this, but ever since my mom got sick, it's very easy to make me cry lol. Like I cry at sad movies and I cry if I see animals hurt. But what I hate the most, is that as soon as my H gets mean to or we have a fight, I start tearing up! I hate it! I feel like a cry baby and wish I didn't cry so easily. How do I stop that?


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## turnera

I'd ask your IC for advice on that.


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## PieOhMy

My husband made a big deal about not using his cash for the week on gas or anything else with vacation. I said okay and left it alone. 

Today, he told my BIL he'd drive an hour away to buy a part BIL found on Craigslist, that he'd pay the guy in cash.

I asked him why he would use his cash for the week? 

He said "he did it for me a while back, I'm not going to tell him no."

Me: I'm not expecting you to say no, but maybe to say that you will later in the week when you aren't struggling on cash.
H: Why is there always a problem when it comes to my brother?! (He went on about how I analyze everything he does).
Me: It's not about your brother. It's about the fact that you have barely any cash for the week, something you insisted on having with me the other day, and you're about to blow it on a taillight for your brother.
H: Why are you being like this?! Seriously, always a f*cking problem.
Me: You won't have anything for the week if you spend this cash. I don't understand why you would do this if it puts you in a rut.

At that point I walked away. He got in the car and drove off. He texted me ten minutes later asking if I'd go with him to pick up the part. I told him that I was absolutely done with this crap. That we have no other funds available to us for the week except for groceries. And that if he chose to go through with this, he'd be hurting our relationship. More than he already has. He never texted me back. But came home 20 minutes later.

He insisted on having his cash so I left it alone. But it seems like he can't say no to his parents and BIL. He always does this.

I'm happy he never went, but it's just annoying. I kept my cool and never raised my voice or really argued, but I really meant it when I said I was done.


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## PieOhMy

And what it really was about was that I'm sick of him putting his family's needs/wants before our own well being, whether that's emotionally or financially.


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## turnera

I get that you're sick of it, but we've discussed this ad nauseum - he is like this with his family BECAUSE of his family. And he isn't going to stop being like this. Not without a ton of therapy to learn that it's ok to stand up to them. 

You're just not understanding. You don't seem to be trying to see things from his perspective. HE IS TERRIFIED of upsetting them. It's a basic primal urge that he can't do anything about. He'd sooner cut off his leg than say no to any of them. He's that scared. So when you 'force' him to say no, he feels even worse. He WANTS to be married to you, but it won't last forever; eventually he'll just get mad and fed up. And leave.


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## PieOhMy

Sometimes I just want to tell him to grow a pair. 

And I think it's hard for me to understand because my family was never like that...it had it's own problems, but they never asked for money or anything like that.


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## PieOhMy

So he's scared of disappointing them?


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## turnera

He's scared of their DISAPPROVAL.

He has been raised in a family in which love isn't given freely - it's earned; on a daily basis, event by event, trial by trial. I know a few people like him AND IT NEVER GOES AWAY. He will spend his whole life waiting for the next event in which they expect from him and he has to decide yes or no. Every.single.time. 

The one thing people need is love. And if you're denied it as a child, it becomes an all-consuming life mission to find a way to attain it from those who withheld it. With his brother, there's obviously some dysfunctional dynamic going on; my guess is your H was the black sheep and had to forever prove himself, he was never 'enough.' 

If you were raised with unconditional love, you simply can't understand. 

My parents weren't that bad, but my H was. I spent 30 years trying to please him, trying to figure out what it would take to KEEP him from showing his disapproval. Over the past few years, I've started taking my life back, as your H should, but it will never go away - that fear of doing something that gets 'that look' from him, that grimace, that sigh, that mutter under his breath...that instill utter terror in my heart. It is SO hard to explain to someone who doesn't fear the way you don't fear.

Just today, I was feeling tired and wanted to just lie down for a few minutes. To give background, the first 25-30 years, H would always ask me what I've gotten done, what I 'accomplished,' and would then compare it against what HE got done. If he felt I didn't do enough, he would let me know, with disgust, disapproval, muttering, snide remarks, rolling his eyes...he would also do it to DD25 - ask ME what SHE was doing, as in 'is she goofing off'?

I've tried really hard to move away from this dysfunction, per my IC's work. And on the surface, I stand up to him a lot more, I try not to have to 'please' him. But on the inside, in my brain and my heart? I still shake in my boots out of fear of getting one of those 'looks' from him.

So just today, I was still a little sleepy from having taken a Nyquil last night, so I thought I would lie down for 15-30 minutes to shake it off. But H was in the next room fixing our electronics. All I could think of when I lied down was what if he walks in the room? What if he mutters under his breath that I'm not accomplishing? What if he gets angry and gives me one of his 'why are you so lazy' comments? I couldn't relax! I finally gave up when I heard him crying out in anger at something not going right. I didn't want him to walk in, being angry, and catch me 'being lazy.' So I got up and went back to doing housework.

THAT is how your H feels whenever his family gets brought up, or when they ask for something, or he has to make a choice between you or them.


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## PieOhMy

Is this similar to a people pleaser? Cause I've always thought he was that, too.


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## turnera

It depends. A people pleaser just generally doesn't feel worthy or confident, of anyone, so he tries to get their approval by doing things for them and not being a bother. Like a person who will help out every neighbor on the street, but won't fix his own sink for his wife.

Your H's issue goes deeper because he took on the role of 'responsible one' for his whole family and it's not like he does it to please them, rather he does it to AVOID the pain of being judged negatively.


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## Blossom Leigh

Hey Pie... I'm proud of you for not backing off your boundary on the money. Good job...


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## PieOhMy

Thank you Blossom. And my husband does that often. He'll do all this stuff for other people, but won't do it for me or himself. He came home with three gifts for his brother and only bought himself a car sticker.


----------



## PieOhMy

So in my IC session, my therapist and I were talking about how I'm feeling very careless towards my H. That when he has his tantrums, I just feel like I see a child stomping his feet, and it's really turning me off. It's really just making me disgusted by him. And then the thing where he was about to send money on his brother that he didn't have, just really disgusted me too. Like, more and more I'm feeling ew. Annoyed. And just don't want to get into arguments at all. That I just ignore him when he's trying to talk/argue. 

That on vacation, he threw a temper tantrum because I didn't care enough about not getting sand in the car from the dog. That he got so angry that it scared me for a moment. No, he did not touch me, but he was kicking stuff. But then the therapist mentioned that being on steroids (for poison ivy) could have had something to do with it, but it's not an excuse because it's happened before. 

But when he acted like that on vacation, I felt like I got a glimpse of what my life would be like with him. We have a house of our own, it's just us, we're both taking care of the dog, and he's screaming and b*tching and kicking stuff because of sand in the car. And I just don't want to listen to it. So done with it. And then of course when we get home, the money thing with his brother. Again, an issue with finances and an issue with his inability to say no to his family.

On vacation, I cried my eyes out in the bathroom, looking up online stuff like "am I falling out of love with my husband?". Because, I just sometimes didn't want to be touched by him. 

I'm beginning to want him to stay out. I don't know. Sometimes I do want to be done with this relationship. But I also feel like where at a weird spot in our marriage where all these feelings are coming out and I also feel like there are positives, he's saying sorry, we're talking about our feelings more, he is going to therapy, and he is making better financial decisions. I just wish it wasn't so exhausting. I feel like he's taking a toll on my body and my mind, even my spirit. Like he's putting a damper on it. 

And then I think I kind of owe it to our marriage to give it more time. 

What do you think?


----------



## PieOhMy

Maybe this is just my sense of urgency kicking in. More patience.


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## turnera

Yes, more patience. And MUCH MUCH more communication. He needs to hear this new changing perspective of yours. You're still in MC, right?

My H is almost impossible to change. He flat out won't listen, won't see that there's anything wrong with him. But there is ONE thing that works with him - DD25 or me telling him that this or that particular action he does makes us not want to be around him.


----------



## PieOhMy

Yes, we're still in MC. Yes, I know, more patience. It just hurts. It really does. And it's exhausting. But I guess this is married life, right? Lol.


----------



## turnera

You're so young, you have no idea what patience really looks like. I judge my marriage in decades (3 1/2), not years. When I first decided I was fed up, DD25 was in junior high. I told myself I'd prepare to leave when she graduated high school. Then when she graduated, I said I'd wait til she graduated college (or I paid off our debt). Now, I'm just settling and not thinking about it.


----------



## PieOhMy

So I asked my H if we could talk about some stuff earlier. Originally he said some other time, but when he came home, he wanted to have the talk anyways. I didn't want to because I felt like it was too late and he seemed tired. He said he was fine. 

Bullet points: 

He thinks I watch him like a hawk and I'm waiting for him to screw up. He says he feels like I'm always looking into what he does and he just wants me to relax when he screws up. Which is hard for me to understand because I feel I've been stating my boundaries and he continues to go on his rant anyways. I guess he'd prefer that I don't really say anything.

He says he doesn't have much respect for what I say or think about finances because I don't have a full time job; he asked if I would take job advice from a bum. I told him there was a full time job at a facility I liked that I was offered but did not take it because for both of us the health insurance would be ridiculous. I told him that they may still accept me, so I could only get health insurance for me and bring in some income, or I can get health insurance for both of us and not bring much in at all. And he said HE HAS TO THINK ABOUT IT. I just told him that I'm going to call them tomorrow and see if the position is still open. 

He still wants to pursue a friendship with John, Amy and her brother. He thinks what i think of it is ridiculous. I told him that I felt there were signs of emotional infidelity and attachment to Amy. He thinks I'm nuts. I told him to go ahead and pursue that friendship then, but that he knows how I feel. He never really responded to that so I don't even know how that's going to go now.

I told him I NEED him to not scare me when he blows a lid, that I need to feel safe.

I told him I NEED him to put our finances and well being before his family or anyone else. 

And I told him that I NEED to feel protected by him. That he's not going to let people trample us or I, and stand up for us. 
I asked him if he could give these things to me, he said yes but that I shouldn't expect perfection. I told him I didn't, that there's no such thing.

And then he brought up the thing on Sunday about BIL and the money. He started getting really angry even though I was barely saying anything. I kept telling him that I understand that he wants to do these things for his brother, but that he can't continue to give what we don't have or at our expense. He said he was mad because he already told his brother he would, and then I said that maybe he should try not to jump the gun and think before you do. He got mad and insisted that I didn't understand. I thought i did, maybe I don't. I have no idea anymore. Anyways, I eventually said to him after some silence, "I don't know if I should say this, but I'm hoping I can without you getting upset. YOU DO NOT NEED TO EARN APPRECIATION OR LOVE FROM YOUR FAMILY BY GIVING THEM MONEY OR PUTTING THEM BEFORE YOURSELF. I see that in them, and thats what I see in you." He started crying and went to the bathroom. I said that's what I see and that I'm sorry if he was not ready to hear that. No response. When he came out, I asked if he was okay, he said yea. I asked if he wanted to talk about it, he said no. I asked if he was mad at me, he said no. I offered a hug, he rejected it. So...now he's sleeping and I wish we hadn't talked tonight.


----------



## PieOhMy

I know. Bad move. We should have never talked or I should have just waited for MC.


----------



## farsidejunky

Yes and no. At some point these discussions have to take place without MC'S. 

His reaction was unexpected. Pie, you just got a glimpse of how much pressure he is under from his family, whether driven by them or by him. And that pressure he feels from them? He feels it from you, too. He has some large self esteem problems.

But, you also got the skinny on where he stands with Amy and John.

Did you intend to get to how your feelings for him are devolving and just not get to it?


----------



## AliceA

I know how you feel about feeling worse after a talk but even so, if there's any chance of getting through this together, it's a step that has to be taken. Recently I had the same thing; DH and I were going through something very tough and after we talked I felt even worse, but prior to the talk there seemed no way forward, after the talk we were able to talk again, and soon enough there was a light at the end of the tunnel. When you have a lot to get through it's going to take a lot more talks. I don't think anyone should be afraid of discussing their problems because the alternative is to stay quiet and make no progress at all.


----------



## PieOhMy

I agree. And yes, I did plan on getting to telling him that my feelings are fading. But it never got there. I just feel like everything has to be argument for him. Constantly. I at one point asked him if what he's saying is coming from him still resenting me for the past. He said that it's not and that it's just what he believes. I don't know if that's any better. 

Again, it just feels like his beliefs are not the same as mine. He did say he could give me those three things, but then he continued on about the BIL thing and told me he still wanted to pursue a friendship with John and Amy and insisted that it wasn't fair since I have a friendship with a guy that once tried to kiss me (friend of the family, known him since I was 2). I only see him when my dad invites him over with his dad, we don't even talk besides that. 

I wish he could just tell me how he's feeling or what he's thinking without it becoming a royal debate.


----------



## PieOhMy

And I'm hurt that he still doesn't see what I see with John and Amy, that he thinks I'm being ridiculous. That he even still wants to pursue a friendship with them. As soon as he said that I felt like throwing up.


----------



## AliceA

When I find that someone is having great difficulty in understanding my POV (generally DH), I turn it around and tell it as if it was them in my shoes. For you, you would have to use examples of things that happened with some details.

e.g. You say to him, "Just hear this out, try to keep an open mind. Imagine this: One day, you walk in with me to my friend's house (give a male friend's name here to make it more personal). He is lying down on the couch and I leave your side and go lie down behind him and put my arm around him. You tell me later you didn't like that I did that, and I tell you that you are over reacting and it was nothing.

**just an example, sorry if the details weren't accurate but I wouldn't know where to find the post where you described the event.

Give him example after example of your interactions with them, putting him in your place. Go to the darkest memories you have.

Note: This is a tactic I use again and again with the kids. I think it helps to teach them empathy.


----------



## PieOhMy

This is true. He barely let's me speak, like I didn't even get to what I really wanted to say to him. I did tell him bluntly that he's right, that I am ignoring him sometimes, because I feel myself losing respect for him little by little, every time he gets me scared, every time he fights me about finances, etc.


----------



## Roselyn

You and your husband are worlds apart. He will continue to give money to his family members whether you like it or not. He wants to continue his friendship with Amy and John whether you like it or not. After reading your entries since the beginning, I can only summize that he truly loves Amy. You have always been a Plan B. 

You will continue with this angst in your relationship. He equates your not having a job as that of the social standing of a bum. This is an insult levelled at the core of your being. You need to wake up that your husband will always have these issues with you. Personally speaking for myself, I would file for a divorce as I could not live the way you are living in this marriage. Your choice...


----------



## turnera

Wow, so much going on. I'm glad you talked; it needs to be said. Communication is always important. And he gave you a LOT of valuable information. Remind me: are you not working because you're raising kids, because you're in school, or what? If you're having money problems, you should be contributing, even if you have sell Avon.

He's proving what we said - he is SO wrapped up in his family and getting his emotional needs met by pleasing them that he frankly can't even see the forest for the trees. Like I've told you, he is NOT going to get past this ENORMOUS issue without either tons of personal therapy or his whole family dying.

And I agree to show him a reverse version of Amy (how would you like it if my friend Joe laid down behind me and hugged me, and I then said it was nothing and I wanted to keep seeing him?).

But bottom line, what's coming across is what I'm sure I've discussed before about people's top Emotional Needs, from the book His Needs Her Needs (did you read it yet?). He is telling you quite plainly what his top ENs are and, just like most men, one of his top 3 ENs is admiration. And you are hammering away at his admiration day by day by day. He KNOWS you're right about needing to please his parents...but that is who he is - needing to please his parents to be able to love himself; and at the same time, he knows YOU aren't admiring him and that crushes him, too. 

And honestly, the more he gets shoved into this corner of self-hatred and being UN-admirable, the more tempting Amy starts looking - free and easy admiration and affection and attention and compliments...

That puts you into an uncomfortable place. And it's starting to get more and more of a slippery slope for you and this marriage. So I'm going to suggest something I suggest to a lot of people who find their spouses cheating. And I say that because you really DON'T have control over his choices. He's made quite a few attempts to please you, even though it's pushing against what HE needs (in terms of his family, etc.), so I feel he WANTS you to be happy, but it has to be beneficial to him, too. So at this point, I'm feeling like he just needs to see YOUR bottom line. That you want him, love him, but don't need him to survive. That you WANT to be with him - as long as YOU aren't having to sacrifice everything you stand for.

So I suggest that you say to him 'look, I love you and I want you, but I don't want to try to control you. I respect you too much for that. So I just need to let you know what my bottom line is, and then let you decide if you can live with that. If you can't, I'll understand and we can decide what to do next. My bottom line is not being yelled at; not watching you hang out with a woman who is clearly making moves on you; not using credit cards to pay our bills when money is being given to or spent on family members. I don't think I'm asking a lot; and if you can promise not to cross those boundaries, I'll promise to back off on watching you like a hawk to CATCH YOU crossing them. But if that's too much to ask for you, I'll understand."


----------



## PieOhMy

I am working, it's just part time because I was originally going to school too. But now it's just part time until I can get full time. They don't have anything available at the facility I'm at for full time right now. So I've been looking. I've had offers but unfortunately they are only night shifts which my primary and IC didn't think it was a good idea. They were concerned about messing with my sleeping schedule (because of my mental history) at a time I was so stressed out. 

Btw. I am back on my medication. I don't really want to be but when I started feeling so sad and what not, I didn't want to take any chances. I'm still making my way up to the optimal dose.


----------



## PieOhMy

Btw. The last time I used a male friends as an example with the whole laying in bed thing with Amy, my H said it WOULDN'T BOTHER HIM because he trusts me. So that didn't really work out as I planned.


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## PieOhMy

So what do I say in response if he says something like that?


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## tpdallas

You should get her number and text with her too. 

Heck text them both a funny meme about pregnancy. 

This will make her think you two are texting cohorts.


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## PieOhMy

I have no interest in talking to her lol.


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## Rosemary's Granddaughter

Hello, Pie~I've been reading your thread the past couple of evenings. For the most part, my impression is that your husband is only using you, that he is not a doormat at all (I don't know of any physical abusers who are doormats--that just doesn't equate. I, too, was first married to an abuser, and have talked to numerous abuse victims). Your husband sounds like the typical abusive manipulator.

He is grasping at straws to insult you about your lack of a job--I think I would respond with a reference to the $7,000 he owes you for his immigration expenses. No wonder his parents think that they can ask for $1000.

About your inheritance--that money is not equivalent to whatever income you make, and he is likely not entitled to it in any way--I am not sure of NJ laws, but most of the time, a spouse cannot touch another's inheritance. He might be entitled to half of the interest. I hope that you do not put it down on a house, which would then make half of the principal available to him in the event of a divorce.

About the friend situation --he texted both of them that he wouldn't be cutting off the friendship again --it seems to me that he has himself in a prideful position that isn't going to allow for him going back on his "word" to them. 

I hope you don't mind my observations. I wish the best for you. I want to add that every counselor/therapist I saw during and after my marriage/separation/divorce stated to me that physically abusive people are rarely rehabilitated. It can happen, but it is extremely rare. Please keep this at the forefront of your mind...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

Thank you for your observations...I almost feel stuck. I feel like I could walk away from this marriage. I really could. And I'd be just fine. But there has been some progress on his part. So I have some hope.

But I've really reached my wits end here. Like I don't have any fight in me. I don't even want to bother with it. With him. I just want to be happy. 

I am really lost about this whole Amy thing. I agree, because I've seen it in the past, he likes to jump into things before thinking it out, but once he's made a verbal commitment to someone, he doesn't like to back out. And then, there's also the whole actions speak louder than words. But then, to hear him still think I'm absolutely nuts for thinking what I think of her and the whole situation, and then hearing that he still wants to pursue the friendship, makes me feel like any hope I had that he might actually have a head on his shoulders and see what this b*tch is doing, is now shot to sh*t. Because he was STILL ready to argue me on it and I didn't even want to get into it. 

And yes, I feel very insulted about him using the "bum" thing. I didn't even know what he was talking about when he said it, that's how off guard it got me. I didn't even realize he was talking about me. (Just for the record, I happen to keep myself very busy, I make a list in my head before I go to bed every night for the next day. Sometimes I feel like I do have a full time job taking care of the house and all the errands for everyone). I just can't believe he said that.

And with the abuse. I'm still trying to figure it out. Why it ever happened, where it came from, will it happen again. I don't feel like it will happen again, BUT WHO KNOWS. I just want it done. I don't want it around me. He can take that anger and beat up his precious car.

All I wanted to do the other night was just tell him that I think he feels like I don't care about what he thinks or feels because there actually is some truth in that. That with every blow out and hurtful decision he makes, I lose respect for him. And that I feel like I am falling out of love with him. And that I need these three things. And that I just want to know if he can give those to me or not. That's all. I didn't want to argue, I didnt want to get into every little detail and past arguments, I just wanted to state the above. I just wanted him to hear where my feelings were. 

And I feel like I never even got a chance to do that. Instead, I feel like I got insult and injury. 

I said in the last MC session that I am upset because I have a husband that is still throwing tantrums and can't even manage his finances wisely. Of course he didn't respond to that. And the therapist went on to ask H about his feelings. 

And then I feel like I owe it to him and myself to give it a lot more time. I do feel like I was always more mature than him, but not in everything. I had to grow up overnight when my mom became ill. She was a completely active, healthy woman. Very social and very assertive, worked full time, liked to have fun. On the last night of our vacation in 2010 she had a pulmonary embolism that put her into cardiac arrest. The lack of oxygen to her brain left her in a coma for 2 weeks and when she woke up, she was bed bound or in a wheel chair until her death 2 years later. In some ways, I felt like I became a mom to my own mom and dad. My dad because of his alcoholism and inability to care for himself or give me any support except financially. Anyways, it took me about 2 years to put myself back together after all that, and there's still plenty more work to be done. But this is why I think I need to be more patient. It took me two years to get back to my former mindset (happyyyy), but it's been now almost 3 years that I've been waiting for H to pull through too. So do I keep waiting or will I be wasting my time? I know this is a decision only I can make.

I'm turning 27 soon. Which is something that's also upsetting me. And I can't help but feel like, holy crap, my life is flying by and I'm still in the same spot with my H. I want to have kids and a family. I can't help but feel like I might be waiting forever for this marriage to get strong enough to have kids. And I feel like my biological clock is just ticking away. Is that bad? Selfish?

Sorry. So many things on my mind.


----------



## turnera

Honestly, given that you're only 26, no kids, and things are already this far downhill, I'd be going for a separation. Tell him you need to clear your head. See if you find yourself again living by yourself. See if you still want to be married. Then do it, and then let him EARN you by meeting the aforementioned items I listed that you require in a marriage. It's then on HIM to see if he wants to step up.


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## AliceA

I also think that considering the poor progress made so far, and the fact that the whole Amy thing is even still on the table for him, that separation is probably the next step.


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## farsidejunky

I agree. While in see what is happening with him, he is still clinging to things that are simply incompatible for you.


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## PieOhMy

How would I even say that I want a separation without it seeming like an ultimatum. Because I know with whatever I say, he's going to say that.


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## PieOhMy

I also don't want him dragging me into a conversation or argument about it. I want him to just HEAR me instead of always having something to debate. 

Do you think I should give it more time? Yes, these things he's clinging onto are absolutely incompatible for me. But the only thing that is really stopping me is that one question. Am I being impatient and jumping the gun?


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## AliceA

Only you can answer that. Is this as good as it gets for your marriage? From the outside looking it, it seems that way to me. Is it enough for you? Obviously not.

It's come from a very bad place, and it's improved enough that you are not currently being physically abused, but will it ever be able to improve enough to be a great marriage? That's sort of like thinking a toad can turn into a swan imo.


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## PieOhMy

So then maybe this is my big lesson, that this is marriage. Misery and happiness, all tied into one.

I guess what I'm asking then, am I expecting too much? We have some other married friends, but none that we are very close with. Are closest friends are only bf/gf. So I feel like I'm still learning, my mom is dead so I don't have anyone to ask. Is there truth in when he says I expect perfection? Those three things are what I'm asking for, solid and strong. I can deal with all our other little bs. And I guess the Amy thing would fall into the whole putting us and our marriage first, to not be hurtful towards me. I think he's waiting for me to change my mind about her but that's not going to happen.


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## lucy999

PieOhMy said:


> He says he doesn't have much respect for what I say or think about finances because I don't have a full time job; he asked if I would take job advice from a bum.


Says the husband who lives rent-free in his FIL's house.


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## Plan 9 from OS

IMHO, you lack a reference point on what a normal marriage should be. Your husband is not a good one. I'm not sure if you are a good wife either, no offense. It's been my position for some time on this thread, but I don't think either of you two should be married - even to other people. I think you personally need to get some IC and figure some things out for yourself. What makes you tick? A huge red flag is the idea that you married the brother of your abusive ex bf, and that your husband also abuses you on occasion albeit less often than his ass-hole brother. Do you think any healthy person would do that? I do not. JMHO, but you need to get out. Divorce the guy AND his family completely, focus on your mental and emotional health and prepare yourself so that you will recognize the right guy for you in the future.


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## PieOhMy

I hear ya. I'm going to say what I was trying to say to him in MC this week. And see how that session goes.


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## turnera

Pie, what you have is NOT a normal marriage. Marriages are built on friendship and respect and I see little of that in yours.


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## PieOhMy

I think I'm going to try and get some space from him this week besides the MC session. I also want to read through this entire thread because I've practically used this forum as an area to vent. I need to get my thoughts in order, and I really want to weigh the pros and cons of this marriage. I wish my gut would talk to me right now, it's usually easy to hear and it's been right 99% of the time lol. But I feel like even my gut is at a standstill right now, clueless and unsure what to do.

I just need to look at all of it.


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## turnera

Do you have a sister or an aunt you can talk to?


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## Rosemary's Granddaughter

PieOhMy said:


> Thank you for your observations...I almost feel stuck. I feel like I could walk away from this marriage. I really could. And I'd be just fine. But there has been some progress on his part. So I have some hope.
> 
> But I've really reached my wits end here. Like I don't have any fight in me. I don't even want to bother with it. With him. I just want to be happy.
> 
> I am really lost about this whole Amy thing. I agree, because I've seen it in the past, he likes to jump into things before thinking it out, but once he's made a verbal commitment to someone, he doesn't like to back out. And then, there's also the whole actions speak louder than words. But then, to hear him still think I'm absolutely nuts for thinking what I think of her and the whole situation, and then hearing that he still wants to pursue the friendship, makes me feel like any hope I had that he might actually have a head on his shoulders and see what this b*tch is doing, is now shot to sh*t. Because he was STILL ready to argue me on it and I didn't even want to get into it.
> 
> And yes, I feel very insulted about him using the "bum" thing. I didn't even know what he was talking about when he said it, that's how off guard it got me. I didn't even realize he was talking about me. (Just for the record, I happen to keep myself very busy, I make a list in my head before I go to bed every night for the next day. Sometimes I feel like I do have a full time job taking care of the house and all the errands for everyone). I just can't believe he said that.
> 
> And with the abuse. I'm still trying to figure it out. Why it ever happened, where it came from, will it happen again. I don't feel like it will happen again, BUT WHO KNOWS. I just want it done. I don't want it around me. He can take that anger and beat up his precious car.
> 
> All I wanted to do the other night was just tell him that I think he feels like I don't care about what he thinks or feels because there actually is some truth in that. That with every blow out and hurtful decision he makes, I lose respect for him. And that I feel like I am falling out of love with him. And that I need these three things. And that I just want to know if he can give those to me or not. That's all. I didn't want to argue, I didnt want to get into every little detail and past arguments, I just wanted to state the above. I just wanted him to hear where my feelings were.
> 
> And I feel like I never even got a chance to do that. Instead, I feel like I got insult and injury.
> 
> I said in the last MC session that I am upset because I have a husband that is still throwing tantrums and can't even manage his finances wisely. Of course he didn't respond to that. And the therapist went on to ask H about his feelings.
> 
> And then I feel like I owe it to him and myself to give it a lot more time. I do feel like I was always more mature than him, but not in everything. I had to grow up overnight when my mom became ill. She was a completely active, healthy woman. Very social and very assertive, worked full time, liked to have fun. On the last night of our vacation in 2010 she had a pulmonary embolism that put her into cardiac arrest. The lack of oxygen to her brain left her in a coma for 2 weeks and when she woke up, she was bed bound or in a wheel chair until her death 2 years later. In some ways, I felt like I became a mom to my own mom and dad. My dad because of his alcoholism and inability to care for himself or give me any support except financially. Anyways, it took me about 2 years to put myself back together after all that, and there's still plenty more work to be done. But this is why I think I need to be more patient. It took me two years to get back to my former mindset (happyyyy), but it's been now almost 3 years that I've been waiting for H to pull through too. So do I keep waiting or will I be wasting my time? I know this is a decision only I can make.
> 
> I'm turning 27 soon. Which is something that's also upsetting me. And I can't help but feel like, holy crap, my life is flying by and I'm still in the same spot with my H. I want to have kids and a family. I can't help but feel like I might be waiting forever for this marriage to get strong enough to have kids. And I feel like my biological clock is just ticking away. Is that bad? Selfish?
> 
> Sorry. So many things on my mind.


One thing that stands out to me is that you are dealing with an irrational person--and a realist can only have so much patience for that behavior. Logical discussions with resolution will be rare; based on everything you've written on this thread, I think you will thrive with a level-headed partner, whom you can have real conversations with, and he doesn't seem capable of ever getting there...

Yes, marriage is hard. But a healthy marriage is not misery mixed with happiness. After the honeymoon phase wears off, there are highs and lows--you learn together to weather the lows because the highs will return. Four years in, the two of you should just be coming out of the honeymoon phase, in my opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

I'm an only child. My Aunt is great but she's very dramatic, I don't always feel comfortable talking to her about these sort of things. Maybe I'll try my mom's cousin. They were always very close, and she's pretty easy to talk to.


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## PieOhMy

He's always told me I'm a pessimist. I always told him that I felt I was being realistic. And then he'd argue that of course. 

I agree. Sometimes I think he's very unrealistic. He's made me doubt myself in the past. I know better, now.


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## farsidejunky

Pie, don't fall into the trap of thinking that because he is mostly wrong that you must be mostly right.

Are you pessimistic? Ask that question without regard to your feelings towards him.


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## PieOhMy

I do not feel like I am at all. I think I'm realistic.


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## PieOhMy

I really am. I think I'm actually pretty positive. I just don't think I have much tolerance for a lot of bullsh*t.


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## turnera

Are you seeing a personal therapist? That would be the person to ask that of.


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## PieOhMy

Yes I am. Once a week.


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## farsidejunky

I get pessimism from you. But in fairness this is also where you are unloading your hurt. T is right. Ask your therapist.


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## turnera

IMO, her pessimism comes from expecting to marry someone who would protect her, treat her fairly, and respect her, and since she's getting none of that, she's trying to figure out what the real deal is. I spent my first 10 married years miserable and not understanding why. It wasn't until I was much older that I realized I was giving and giving and giving, and he was so insecure and dysfunctional that I wasn't getting back in return - at least not in a way that mattered to ME. And of course, I got told the same stuff - you're too critical, why can't you just be happy...so I felt guilty for not being happy.


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## PieOhMy

So...we had another really long talk earlier today. Not intended. There were a lot of hurtful but hopefully informative things said. Unfortunately, he was already in a bad mood when it happened, so he was angry and defensive to begin with. Basically:

He said:

-I feel like you're waiting for me to screw up.
-I feel like you think you're smarter than me and that your word is God.
-I am going to pursue the friendship, whether it's when things are better or when we're broken up.
-You sometimes embarrass me in front of our friends.
-I know you know you're wrong but you keep pushing that you're right anyways.
-You hate my friends and family and you wish I never had a past.
-I don't regret ANYTHING I've ever done in my past.
-I used to see a future with you and a family, but now I don't.
-I'm sorry for hurting you with the friends thing.
-I hate it when you ask about my past.

I said/some of his responses:

-I don't think I'm smarter than you. When I asked for him to tell me what I do that makes him think that, he said he doesn't know. I said that I hope he can tell me so I can try to fix it. He said he doesn't know what it is.
-I was trying to tell you that with every hurtful decision you make and tantrum you throw, my feelings for you get chipped little by little and I'm sure the same goes for you in some way.
-What I speak is very honest. What I say I believe and feel 100%. 
-I am sorry for making fresh comments to you period, I will stop or do my best to do so.
-I won't ask you about the past unless it's very relevant to what we're speaking of. I don't want to erase your past, of course there are parts I don't like, but I'd like to create our own new memories together. Yes, sometimes things you bring up remind me of things that made me uncomfortable about your past or hurtful things in our past, and I try not to let it bug me. I actually try to talk about positive things and move the conversation, and don't make any comments. He said he feels like I give him a look, I told him that I don't, most of the time I try not to catch his stare because I don't want him to see that quick half second stillness in my face that probably clues to him that it's an ill reminder to me. He insisted that I do. I told him that I know I don't and that i sometimes feel like maybe he has his own insecurities about it and since he already knows how I feel about it whether he sees it in my face or not, that maybe it's his own pressure on himself. Then I said I will do my best to avoid facing him in those conversations, that I don't know what else he wants from me.
-My pros and cons are 50/50. He said there were more cons then pros for him. I asked him then why are you here. He said because he wants to give it a chance and he loves me. When I later asked what he loves about me, he said he didn't know.
-He insisted that he knows I know I'm wrong about his friends and his brother. I told him that what I believe and feel about his friends are 100% real and true. I told him with his brother, I am always fearful of "what's next" with him but at the same time, sometimes enjoy his company. My feelings are mixed, and that's the truth.
-I told him that I sometimes feel like he speaks out of anger instead of concern in helping our relationship.
-As for your friends, my feelings for them will not change. He said I don't know that. I told him I know that the thought of them makes me nauseous and truly believe they have absolutely no respect for me or our marriage. There's a slim chance that I may change how I feel about them, and if so, it will take YEARS. I don't know if you're willing to wait that long. If you want to be friends, then pursue it, you already know how I feel.
-I sometimes feel like you intentionally hurt me.

He was all mad and moody afterwards. I was pretty upset because I felt like he didn't really hear what I was saying. He didn't have a lot of answers to my questions, especially when I asked how I'm making him feel certain ways, what am I doing that makes you feel that way. We originally had plans with friends. He didn't want to go. I told him that I was going over to their house, then. I don't want this to ruin my day. He ended up going with me anyways.

Tonight he initiated sex. He asked if I didn't want to. I told him that I do want to have sex, but that it is very hard for me. That I'm scared. I'm scared that we're going to have sex and then something is going to go bad tomorrow or he's going to say/do something hurtful. Then I know I'll feel taken advantage of or felt like I put my body out to someone that doesn't respect me. He hugged me and held me. I started crying and told him that things are so bad between us and that sometimes they feel like their never going to get better. He said they will get better. We laid there for a little bit, I asked him what he was thinking. He said what to do to make it better. I asked him what he was feeling, he said sad. I laid in his arms for a while. 

And then I asked him if we could have sex somewhere new and adventurous. He asked why. I said to spice things up, for some excitement and the rush. He wanted to do it in bed. I said that I NEED to do it somewhere else. He asked where. I said outside. He said no, I said yes, I turned him on, got him to go outside. We ended up having sex outside in the grass in the backyard. It was fun and it felt lively. We came back to bed, he passed out. And I'm venting here.


----------



## turnera

So it's all basically the same thing I've been telling you, ad nauseum: men have to feel admired and respected. You telling him what makes YOU unhappy instantly translates into him feeling unloved/unadmired/disrespected.

But that is on HIM, not you. You have to be free to tell him what makes YOU unhappy. If every time you tell him what makes YOU unhappy, he turns it into you being disrespecting/unadmiring, he is essentially SHUTTING YOU UP - not ALLOWING you to tell the truth.

This HAS to be discussed in MC.


----------



## AliceA

He's too gutless to end this marriage himself, he's going to push you until you do it. That's what I get out of that. He's telling you straight up that you don't have a future together. He told you his friends and family come first, always. Oh, and he threw in some pretty heavy insults while he was at it, just to make sure you knew that you were worthless. Anytime you disagree with him, you are wrong, and not only that, you know it and you're lying to yourself. Does he even see a person in front of him I wonder?

Nice effort to try keep him interested though. Sex in the garden... that'll earn you some points for a while.


----------



## Nucking Futs

breeze said:


> He's too gutless to end this marriage himself, he's going to push you until you do it. That's what I get out of that. He's telling you straight up that you don't have a future together. He told you his friends and family come first, always. Oh, and he threw in some pretty heavy insults while he was at it, just to make sure you knew that you were worthless. Anytime you disagree with him, you are wrong, and not only that, you know it and you're lying to yourself. Does he even see a person in front of him I wonder?
> 
> Nice effort to try keep him interested though. Sex in the garden... that'll earn you some points for a while.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

He just told you that he chooses another woman over you. And then you fvcked him.


----------



## farsidejunky

breeze said:


> He's too gutless to end this marriage himself, he's going to push you until you do it. That's what I get out of that. He's telling you straight up that you don't have a future together. He told you his friends and family come first, always. Oh, and he threw in some pretty heavy insults while he was at it, just to make sure you knew that you were worthless. Anytime you disagree with him, you are wrong, and not only that, you know it and you're lying to yourself. Does he even see a person in front of him I wonder?
> 
> Nice effort to try keep him interested though. Sex in the garden... that'll earn you some points for a while.


I think this is possible but unlikely. I think that he is still a little boy, and his little boy emotions are getting the best of him.

When Pie explains how she feels, he doesn't hear her feelings, but how he is bad or inadequate. This leaves him not feeling admired and her not feeling heard.

This is speaking as someone who had this problem rampantly just a year and a half ago, and occasionally still today.

Pie, your husband is living a lie that he is a strong man. Really, he is a sensitive, scared man, who hides his fear of inadequacy behind his anger. So in response to you expressing your feelings, he gets hurt, then angry, then lashes back at you because he wants to hurt the person hurting him.

Now, please DO NOT put it to him this way... 

You cannot fix this. He has to want to fix it. In order for this to happen, he has to realize it is broken. YOU CANNOT DO THIS FOR HIM. 

It took me one walk away wife and a sexless second marriage to begin this journey, which is still ongoing. Pie, you may not be able to see him overcome this. He has to want it bad. Or he will really just remain the same.


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## turnera

farsidejunky said:


> I think this is possible but unlikely. I think that he is still a little boy, and his little boy emotions are getting the best of him.
> 
> When Pie explains how she feels, he doesn't hear her feelings, but how he is bad or inadequate. This leaves him not feeling admired and her not feeling heard.
> 
> This is speaking as someone who had this problem rampantly just a year and a half ago, and occasionally still today.
> 
> Pie, your husband is living a lie that he is a strong man. Really, he is a sensitive, scared man, who hides his fear of inadequacy behind his anger. So in response to you expressing your feelings, he gets hurt, then angry, then lashes back at you because he wants to hurt the person hurting him.
> 
> Now, please DO NOT put it to him this way...
> 
> You cannot fix this. He has to want to fix it. In order for this to happen, he has to realize it is broken. YOU CANNOT DO THIS FOR HIM.
> 
> It took me one walk away wife and a sexless second marriage to begin this journey, which is still ongoing. Pie, you may not be able to see him overcome this. He has to want it bad. Or he will really just remain the same.


Best response I've seen yet EVER for you. Print it out and read it often. Hand it to your MC. In fact, I would email the whole thread to the MC and ask him to read it before your next session.


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## PieOhMy

What is a safe way to say all of this, because I feel like what you all have said hold some truth. I just really don't know where he stands. 

I would like to say these things in our MC tomorrow. I just want to say it safely.

Tunera, I agree with what you said. And I'd like to follow through with saying the stuff I've been trying to say to him without it getting fumbled up. 

Breeze and Nucking, I sometimes feel this way. I did at one point say to him yesterday "This may sound like an odd question, but are you staying in this marriage because you can't end it for whatever reason and you're waiting for me to do so?" He answered no and that he is in this marriage because he still loves me. I had sex because I DID actually get into it this time but yes, in hope to help the marriage, not make it worse. Part of me thinks you may be right, part of me doesn't.

Farside, I think you hit the nail on the head. Because there are times he is vulnerable and there is no anger, his defenses are down, and thats when I feel I see progress in our conversations and our relationship. But then a conversation like yesterday happens, and as I said before, it feels like all that work is shot to sh*t. And I don't know what to believe that comes out of his mouth. And I agree, I may not see him through this and eventually it will end. But then that's when I think about how I need to be patient because it took me about 2 years of therapy to finally start straightening out some and it's been almost 2.5 years since that turning point. I want to give him more time. Maybe it is better to save these conversations for MC still.

Plan 9, I see a lot of truth in what you're saying. And I acknowledge it. I'm not sure if I am ready to completely let this relationship go. I am seriously debating a separation, however. I think that will most likely be my next step, not a divorce. Not just yet. I do feel I've made a lot of progress in my own therapy, and I think that part of my exhaustion and decreasing tolerance shows the progress I've made and represents the reality check I'm beginning to see that H may NOT be the right man for me, at least not anymore.

Also, someone at some point stated that what may have seemed like enough for me then, when I first got together with my H, may not be what's enough for me now. Someone also stated that I may outgrow my husband or maturing quicker and if he doesn't make the decision to change, that it will not work. I very much agree with this too. I can't find that comment, but to whoever did, I agree with this as well.

Now, what would be the safest way to relay the key points to him in MC? I'm always afraid I'm going to screw up on that.


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## turnera

I would write out what you just said, both good and bad, hopeful and hopeless, and read it to him in MC.


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## PieOhMy

I'm afraid he's going to cut me off. And then it's going to trail off to something else. I almost want to suggest that maybe every other session, H sees the therapist alone so he can focus on himself some more. I sometimes feel like as long as I'm in the session with him, he always makes it about everything he thinks I'm doing wrong. And I just wish he'd focus on himself and try and make peace with some things.


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## sapientia

I couldn't read all the pages, sorry. Is this still about your H who is in love with his married friend?

If so, my advice is to stop being his doormat. Tell him he is an idiot and have a good laugh at this a$$clown. Here is an unbiased POV: He is in love with a woman who lets men who are not her husband spoon her... he's an idiot thinking with his d!ck and she is dumb, a ho or both.

Tell him if he wants a divorce that he should do the work. Then stop talking to him and definitely stop sleeping with him. Take your self-respect back.

PS - men don't leave women with high-self esteem.


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## turnera

Pie, if you could wing it so that your H is going to the therapist alone, GO FOR IT!

The biggest issue in your marriage isn't your marriage - it's his dysfunctional relationship with his parents and brother which, in turn, negatively affects his marriage, which negatively affects you, which leads him to be drawn to Amy since she doesn't nag him and obviously admires him...


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## sapientia

PieOhMy said:


> I know I have my own role in this, but with my own job which doesn't pay nearly as much as my H's and acting as my father's personal assistant, I never was a big spender. I'm not one of those girls that went on $500 shopping sprees and got my nails done every week. I'm what my mom called a squirrel. I was good at saving my money. When I came into this marriage at 22, I had $11K saved. I spent some on paying off my car and paying off my Lasik surgery, but the rest disappeared in helping my H's parents and his immigration.
> 
> (Brief overview on my father: he makes a lot of money, is very generous, but 100% depended on my mom with everything besides work. After her passing, I took up her roles and my father offered to pay me weekly to act as his personal assistant. I denied it because my H and I were living rent free. I also didn't want to leave him alone at first. He had a lot to learn, I just wanted to take care of him. He also started drinking more after her death, so it was a bad time for him. So those have been my roles for the past 4 years.)
> 
> At this point, I feel more secure being with my dad than being with my husband. Am I being too harsh? Am I wording things wrong? I feel like I can't budge with this. I've given my H plenty of time to see the errors of his way. And someone said in a comment about this: after 4 years of living rent free with my father, we have NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT. It's pathetic.


Holy cow. Has anyone been giving you financial advice? If your father is wealthy, he should know you NEVER use your inheritance for a house down payment. It's risky in a stable marriage and downright stupid in one as unstable as yours.

Speak with your father about a trust. I don't know what he does for a living, but if he is a business owner or in some kind of profession, he should have a lawyer you can get counsel from about this.

My son will inherit through a trust. His future spouse will not be entitled to any of this money should they divorce. Any funds spent on a home or similar large purchase will be via a *loan* from the trust that is repaid, like any mortgage. Any equity they accumulate together would be subject to 50% split, as community property, but she won't get a dime more.

You should also be careful about any allowance from an inheritance. This could be classed as income that could be considered part of your 'lifestyle' that he could make claim to.

Caution!! Don't let your heart rule your head in this. Your future depends on it.


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## Blossom Leigh

Food for thought,... when his anger shows up, he just entered self protect mode. Why? because he doesn't want to give anything up and build a life with you. His actions and words show two things... you are his side piece he just happens to live with and he has no plans to change that. Thus, if you want a family, this is not the man to build that life on. He chooses his family and his emotional sidepiece. Now you can make your choice.... another man AFTER you have healed your picker.


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## PieOhMy

I've been having aching and vaginal pain.not during intercourse but during arousal and at random times during the day for the past few months. I went to the gyno today and they even had a second doctor check me out, and they couldn't really pinpoint it. I just recently had my exam and pap smear a few months back and everything checked out fine. When they came back, they came back suggesting that I go to a psychotherapist that specializes in sex therapy and trauma. They asked how things are going in my sex life is and if I've been under any stress lately, if I've had any other partners besides my H and what the sex is like. All that stuff. They said that stress can do amazing things to our bodies and that it messes with the chemical, hormonal and bacterial balances in our bodies. And that it may be related but as far as they can check, they don't see or feel anything wrong and my vaginal area looks fine.

I'm not surprised and wouldn't be surprised if it was stress. It's not the first time. When my mom was ill, they found cysts and white spots on my cervix. When they ran all the tests, nothing showed up.

I think I'm just going to call it quits at therapy tonight. I feel so nauseous. This marriage is tearing me apart.


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## turnera

I usually push for marriages to stay together but, at your age, with no kids, with so many problems already...he's gotten a LOT of help from you and your dad...maybe he'll just be ready to walk away. Maybe he got what he needed out of it.


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## Blossom Leigh

The stress comes out somewhere... always.


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## PieOhMy

I have my IC and then MC. I usually feel better after IC, but I'm going to try and sort out my feelings in there. Maybe she'll have a recommendation for how to express this in MC.

I just saw my husband at lunch. I was trying to avoid the conversation but he could tell something was wrong. I burst out in tears. I basically said that this marriage is killing me. The stress is killing me. And I don't want it hurting my body. I don't know what to do. I told him about the gyno appointment. I told him that I can't take this anymore. And that I felt like what he wants isn't what I want at all. That we've grown apart. 

He was holding me and trying to comfort me, he was asking what he can do or if he can get anything for me. He was actually being nice. I pulled away just covering my face, crying. I eventually just told him that I'm just going to go upstairs and lay down. He eventually came upstairs and laid down with me. I told him that my heart wants to stay and see if it gets better, but my mind is telling me to end the marriage. My mind and my body can't take it anymore. I told him that my body is mine, it's part of me and my reproductive system is very important to me, and now it's hurting as well. I told him that I am shot out. 

He said that he loves me and started crying. That he sometimes thinks it should end but also wants to see if it can be better. That he does see a future with me and that sometimes he doesn't. 

I asked him if he knew what he wants. He asked what I meant, I said for yourself, for me, for this marriage. He said he wants it to get better. He wants us to make it. I told him that I'm very confused because when he's angry, he says one thing and is so hurtful, but when he's calm like this, he says something else and is so sweet. 

We left on a good note, but I still want to say what I have to say in MC. Although this was a nice conversation, I'm sure he'll get angry again later in the week and ruin it. Perhaps the MC will have some ideas how to go about this.


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## turnera

'he'll get angry again later in the week'

Focus on THIS in MC.


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## Blossom Leigh

Really sorry you are hurting so badly emotionally today Pie. We've all been there.


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## PieOhMy

MC session didn't really get to the idea of separating or divorce. But the MC pointed a lot of things out to my husband. 

-I think you're underestimating your wife. I don't see any signs of manipulation. I think it's best for you and this relationship to get out of that mindset.
-I don't know what's %100 true or not about these friends. But whatever it is, your wife feels very strongly about it, and perhaps you should take that into consideration. Not telling you to make it the deciding factor, only you can decide what you want to do, but just consider how she feels however you plan to pursue this.
-It sounds like your wife doesn't like some of your past, but also knows she can't change it. I'm happy to hear that she does work it out on her own because it sounds like she doesn't want to think about it either. Once a person is angry, it's not constructive to have a conversation at that point.
-Therapist agreed that it seems like there is some manipulation going on with his family right now and perhaps that's where these thoughts are coming from.
-My husband has been mad about a girly sticker I plan on putting on my jeep, our off-roading vehicle, and he asked the therapist, "Well wouldn't it bother you if you had to drive around with a sticker like that?" And the therapist responded saying no, it really wouldn't bother me. 
-He said it may be better to hold these conversations in MC only. 

When we got home, we had dinner, kind of quiet. And then I told him I really need my space for a few days. He asked why, I said I've been very upset and I just need some time to myself, I need to sort out my thoughts. I'm not telling you to leave, just we spend time doing things apart for a while. He said okay. He seemed upset. He didn't say anything else. But he didn't argue it. He went upstairs after that. I stayed downstairs that night. Last night we slept together but didn't cuddle or anything, nor talk. We haven't said much to each other. And I'm just trying to figure out what I want. If I want to be patient and wait it out, or if I really want to end it.


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## Blossom Leigh

I'm really glad you got some back up from your MC. It is a VERY real possibility that he is triggery over perceived manipulation when there isn't any since he grew up in it and if that is the case he has a LONG row to how and he has to get serious and do the work or you will leave. That's just the long or short of it. I've always said these issues come down to two things in deciding to leave someone destructive or not, whether the person has the *capacity* to change AND if they are *willing*. If one or both of those is missing then the relationship will remain unbalanced and one sided and to be honest, destructive. In my case, not only did my H have the capacity to change, he was also willing and he dug in and did the work and still works on it to this day. He is getting ready to start his second year of discipleship with his men's group at church, which still includes his main mentor. That group and his mentor have been highly effective influences in facilitating his growth. I feel he would be more than willing to see an outside professional in addition to the group when needed. I truly hope your H gets the help he needs whether he stays with you are not. I would like to see him break the cycle of abuse perpetuated by his family. He can choose to be an overcomer, but his biggest obstacle will be viewing this whole situation with proper respect of you and accuracy of who you are, how to protect your union not only from outsiders but himself. Jury is out on his capacity and willingness at this point. Hoping the best for you both whether together or apart.


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## PieOhMy

Sometimes when I'm apart from H and I get a text message. I get a quick hopeful moment that it's H actually saying sorry for everything, that he will never lay a hand on me again and that he's decided he does not want to pursue the friendship with John and Amy. 

And then that be that.


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## Blossom Leigh

He's not there yet. Unfortunately.


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## turnera

The only thing that's going to change things in your marriage is for your husband to start seeing an IC so he can break down the mental shackles he has with his family. He translates that stress into his relationship with YOU, because you are the one safe person, or at least the safest person, in his life (between you, his brother, and his parents). THEY are the ones he has to 'earn' love and appreciation from because he was born with them. You CHOSE him so you are the one he can ignore and abuse; it's safer to disappoint you than it is to disappoint them because you've already given your love. Unless he gets good, consistent IC, he will spend his entire life trying to prove himself to those three. Even after they've died.


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## JustAFamilyMan

PieOhMy said:


> My issue is her husband, John. He is very close to my husband too. He talks to him a lot. They've been texting non stop, at least the texts with Amy have slowed down, for now. But I know my husband is going to say, "Well John is a good friend to me, I like having him in my life." But unfortunately if John's in his life, so is Amy, because they are married and live together and have a baby on the way. So how do I make that work? How do I say without sounding like a total ass, that I don't care about his friendship with John, or even Amy's brother. Or what's good reasoning. Cause I know I'm going to sound like the insecure jealous wife.


I would guess John is either a swinger type or more likely, is trying to keep "the enemy" under watch in the mistaken belief that this will be a ward against intrusion.

"Good friends are hard to come by, but not as hard as great marriages. We can't be what we need to be with them in our life, ever. Either our marriage is worth it or it isn't."

That's just my take.


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## AliceA

I think you have an uphill battle. You are not only dealing with these external sources of discord for your relationship (family and friends), but you are battling from behind the mask of his family. I don't think he even sees you are what you are about, he just sees another version of them. If my DH hadn't pulled away from his mother from a very early age, I think he might've grown up with the same issues. When she put terrible motives behind a number of my actions, it made me out to be an extremely horrible person. I could never reconcile myself to having someone in my life who saw me that way. It's incredibly destructive to your feelings of self-worth I think. Everything you do, no matter how innocent you think it is, is suddenly the work of an evil, manipulative b*tch in their mind. Then when it comes out, and it always does, it shatters you to know they think so little of you.


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## PieOhMy

I feel betrayed and cheated on. I know they've only texted and seen each other for one hour. But I do. 

As for his family, I'm so happy they don't live close to us.


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## PieOhMy

I don't know about John. He seems like a really nice guy. I know he knew that my H used to have a thing for his wife before they got married. Sometimes I am really curious to know how he feels. I want to know how he feels about his wife continuing to text their male "friend" even though he was ignoring her and asked John for space. Or how he felt about his wife repeatedly sending him pictures of their baby.


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## PieOhMy

And honestly, in all these years, the only thing I ever believed that came out of Amy's mouth, was when she told me "We don't like you and we will never like you." 

I believe that.


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## turnera

Move on. Let him have his toxic friends. Start a new life that's better than this. Without him.


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## PieOhMy

When we first brought up the friend thing in MC, the therapist said it's silly to make these friends the thing that makes or break your marriage. I didn't even know how to respond to that.


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## turnera

Who cares? You have your own needs and wants and things to avoid. Just like he does. You could be talking about having peanut butter in the house for all I care. If he's not willing to honor what's important to you, then he isn't. Makes you incompatible. 

The MC seems to be saying that YOU should be the one compromising. I'd ask her about that.

Bottom line, though, you CAN leave a person for any reason you want to.


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## PieOhMy

This is true. He's been trying to talk to me more. He's been in a good mood. I really don't know what to think of him anymore. I guess I'm just at this spot where I'm very confused and don't really want to talk much until we hit therapy.


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## PieOhMy

I am just so incredibly confused. I don't know what to believe. My gut isn't even telling me anything. And that's usually what I trust to follow. 

My husband is being nicer. He's being more affectionate. It's just been great. I don't know if asking for some space was helpful or not. And I'm not quite sure how to even read him. 

BUT, the other night we were at a friend's birthday party. One of our friends, A, is dating this girl, B. They've been together for a year. Anyways, at the party, A's male friend, C, was very talkative and giving and overly friendly with B and her kids, to the point it was weird and everyone felt a little awkward about it. Anyways, no one likes B, she's very rude and b*tchy, and think A can do better. But A seemed oblivious to B and C's interaction, or didn't care. 

ANYWAYS, on the car ride home, H was talking about how B and C's interaction were really awkward and how if he was A, he would have said something to B and C. How he thinks C is waiting around for B to see how good he is and what not. I said that B isn't helping the situation, she shouldn't be inviting it, they're both at fault here, they need some boundaries or not to be around each other at all. H continued to say how he felt like he should say something to A. I said that he might not take that well and if anything, A should be realizing that B sees C as her Plan B. H kept talking about it. I started getting annoyed and couldn't help but feel like it reminded me of the friend situation with him and Amy. Eventually I said, "Maybe C really thinks he's not doing anything wrong. That they're just friends. Some guys are like that, C isn't the brightest crayon in the box." H said no, he knows what he's doing and she knows what she's doing. And I again said, "I don't know. Maybe he really thinks he's just being nice and he's just trying to be her friend. Some guys are like that. Nonetheless, whatever it is, she shouldn't keep accepting it." And then H got defensive and was like, "Really? Are you serious? Are you really trying to prove a point right now?" And I just calmly responded, "No, I'm not. Like I said, C is not the brightest crayon in the box." H didn't say anything else about it. I changed the subject to the food. We later talked about it more. About A, B and C. But not much. 

I don't know. I don't know what to think of his reaction, I don't feel like I said anything terrible. I don't know.


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## AliceA

I think you beat around the bush waaaay too much. Why not just come straight out with it? You obviously think there were similarities in the situation with Amy and John, with your DH being "C". You never tell him straight out what you think, it's always hidden. He probably still has no clue how you felt about him lying on the couch with Amy. I have to admit that when you write about your interactions, your lack of plain speaking makes me wonder how you two ever figure out what is going on.


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## farsidejunky

Pie, I think Breeze is right. Given the hard time you have received here about how your admiration for your husband has been harmed, you have chosen to go from overt to covert.

Pie, he knows your boundary. Has he broken it? Not his words, but his actions. Has he crossed the line since you clearly laid it out, or has he only grumbled about it?


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## PieOhMy

He's only grumbled about it. And I chose not to say anything because I really didn't want to get into abb argument. I was just going to bring it up in MC. 

The funny thing is that no one is bringing up the friends situation in MC. The therapist avoids it and so does my H. Why is that? I wouldn't mind talking about it in MC at least. 

Breeze, I understand. I should just speak up. But sometimes I don't feel safe having conversations like that outside of MC still. 

Farside, what do you mean overt to covert? He's only been using words and grumbling. He hasn't like gone and talked to them or anything.


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## Blossom Leigh

It was a passive aggressive hint at the parallels and he caught it. Good for him. Aim to be more plain spoken, but the part you missed about what he was saying is that they knew what they were doing. It was a confession on his part and some ownership and that would have been a good moment to revel in the success of progress instead of digging in the knife. I heard him say "covertly" ... I knew what I was doing and it was wrong. Celebrate that.... that is recognition of his behavior and ownership, remorse. He too could be more direct, but this is progress on his part.

I encourage you to back away from passive aggressive moves, they are manipulative.


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## turnera

Well, now you have a perfect opportunity to bring it up - "I saw a situation just like John and Amy at a party we went to, and I tried to show H what it looked like from my view, and even in THAT situation, he didn't get it."


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## ConanHub

PieOhMy said:


> When we first brought up the friend thing in MC, the therapist said it's silly to make these friends the thing that makes or break your marriage. I didn't even know how to respond to that.


I would agree if that comment was directed at your husband alone.

It is silly to act like a damn idiot and destroy your marriage by having some kind of strange affair with an odd couple.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

Okay. I don't know if I should go so far to think that him talking about B and C like that was him identifying he was wrong...I don't know. 

And this would be a good way to bring the topic up. But why do you think neither of them have brought it up? It's been a while, and like the therapist said, it is still a "hot topic." Like, sensitive topic.

And that was pretty passive aggressive. I really was just getting annoyed hearing him talk about it because it brought up bad feelings and thoughts. I should have just said that. That I didn't really want to talk about it.


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## PieOhMy

Conan, that's how I feel. Honestly, I would have looked at it like, "Well, I've already made it 4 years without them. I'm sure I'll make it many more. And if it hurts my marriage so much, I don't see how it's worth it. Friends come and go all the time." 

That's how I looked at a lot of my friendships. Guys and girls. Anyone that seemed harmful to my marriage or anyone that made my H too uncomfortable.


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## farsidejunky

PieOhMy said:


> Okay. I don't know if I should go so far to think that him talking about B and C like that was him identifying he was wrong...I don't know.
> 
> And this would be a good way to bring the topic up. But why do you think neither of them have brought it up? It's been a while, and like the therapist said, it is still a "hot topic." Like, sensitive topic.
> 
> And that was pretty passive aggressive. I really was just getting annoyed hearing him talk about it because it brought up bad feelings and thoughts. I should have just said that. That I didn't really want to talk about it.


Pie:

Disregard. Misread your post.


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## turnera

Pie, try to remember that HE doesn't look at the situation and see what YOU see. Each one of us protects OURSELF first, others second. We believe we are right and others are wrong; even our spouse. So when one spouse confronts the other spouse about something, they don't instantly go 'oh you poor thing you must be hurting so much.' They go 'Jesus! What's your problem? I'm not a jerk, if anyone is, it's you.'

So please stop expecting him to see John/Amy from YOUR viewpoint. If anything, all he sees is a ridiculously jealous wife who makes him curtail his fun...women, aren't they a *****?!

The MC knows it's an issue, but frankly, you two are SO toxic for each other in SO many ways that John/Amy is the least of your problems.


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## PieOhMy

Conan, I feel like my H could also say in response something like, "Well I feel like if she really loved me, she would understand that I really want these friends in my life. There's nothing going on, we're just friends. I've missed them. They seem to have changed. They're married, they just bought a house together and they have a kid now." Etc. Etc. 

I forget when, but at one point when we were arguing a few weeks back, he said, "I'm going to pursue this friendship, whether it's when we're better or when we're broken up." I asked then why isn't he right now. He said because he feels like I would end the marriage if he did right now. And I told him I would, and that I will never be okay with them. Now or when we're better. He said I didn't know that. I told him I know myself pretty damn well, enough to know if that I even WANTED to be friends with them, it would take YEARS for me to be even close to being okay with it. But that I don't even want to. He didn't say anything in response.


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## farsidejunky

Stop watching what he says. Watch what he does.


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## PieOhMy

I understand. I'm sorry, I probably sound like a broken record.


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## PieOhMy

Do you really think he may have identified with the ABC situation? I know he doesn't see it as I see it, but why would he get so defensive if he doesn't feel wrong about the situation? He didn't have to take what I said that way, I said that to my girlfriend earlier that night, right in front of him and he took it fine, saying stuff like, "Yeah, I'd punch a guy if he ever pulled that on me." He's so confusing.


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## 3Xnocharm

PieOhMy said:


> Conan, I feel like my H could also say in response something like, "Well I feel like if she really loved me, she would understand that I really want these friends in my life. There's nothing going on, we're just friends. I've missed them. They seem to have changed. They're married, they just bought a house together and they have a kid now." Etc. Etc.
> 
> I forget when, but at one point when we were arguing a few weeks back, he said, *"I'm going to pursue this friendship, whether it's when we're better or when we're broken up."* I asked then why isn't he right now. He said because he feels like I would end the marriage if he did right now. And I told him I would, and that I will never be okay with them. Now or when we're better. He said I didn't know that. I told him I know myself pretty damn well, enough to know if that I even WANTED to be friends with them, it would take YEARS for me to be even close to being okay with it. But that I don't even want to. He didn't say anything in response.


You seriously need to divorce this man. Did you read what you just wrote here?? How much more of a "fvck you" do you need from him? He doesnt give a damn about how you feel, and the fact that he is putting these two POS people above you speaks volumes. This is not how a marriage is supposed to be.


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## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> Do you really think he may have identified with the ABC situation? I know he doesn't see it as I see it, but why would he get so defensive if he doesn't feel wrong about the situation? He didn't have to take what I said that way, I said that to my girlfriend earlier that night, right in front of him and he took it fine, saying stuff like, "Yeah, I'd punch a guy if he ever pulled that on me." He's so confusing.


He got defensive because he knows full well what you were really talking about and he's sick and tired of you bringing it up. From HIS side you are wrong and a broken record and wrong. But he doesn't want a divorce, for whatever reason, so he's going along with you for now. But that doesn't mean he's going to see your side of it.

And remember, he's not at a forum reading about emotional affairs and seeing it from that side. He's just dealing with a nagging jealous wife who won't let him have fun.


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## PieOhMy

I don't feel jealous at all. Actually, scratch that. I was jealous that my husband cared more for these friends and being there for their lives than holding a future between us.

A lot has been said since I last posted. Only in therapy, though. Maybe a little outside, but not much. We haven't fought/debated for a while. We're back to spending time together. But things are still very sticky. With every session,,a whole load of thoughts and feelings are coming out, from both sides. 

Bullet points:

In our MC session...Some very appreciated back up from therapist included:

H:
-Blames me for manipulating him into sending his mother and younger brother back to their country of origin to be with their father. Says I planted the idea in his head and he was too weak at the time to see what I was doing.
-Says I threatened to have his older brother (ex) arrested. And deported. That I could care less about his family, that if it were up to me, that I'd send his whole family away.
-Says I used his immigration status as leverage during arguments and to get what I want. 
-Says that I tried to isolate him from everybody he knew, to keep him all to myself. So I had more control over him.

Me:

-Explained that I never did so. That he asked my opinion, I gave it to him. He asked his older brother, he agreed. And then they told his mother that they must go back. I agreed I shouldn't have been so pushy about making sure the paperwork was being completed, and told him that I was anxious that once it was started, if they didn't follow up on it, they would be arrested, jailed and then deported involuntarily like his father was.
-I told the therapist that I DID go to the cops to report my BIL. Because BIL was so upset about my relationship with H, that he would not stop harassing me or my family and was threatening to do harm to us (this was during the time my mom was home 24/7 bed ridden, I was very scared to leave her alone with her aide because of this). He also attacked my H at work, physically. This lasted for weeks. After H did not try to get BIL to stop (he didn't even fight back when BIL attacked him), I went to the cops to put it on file and they gave him a warning. He finally stopped. 
-As for the immigration, I told him that it wasn't just about the immigration, it was about the whole relationship. Why would I continue to sign my life away, why would I want to sign an affidavit that legally binds me to him as his sponsor, why would I have any desire to continue through with this if I was feeling hurt by him or his actions? It wasn't something I could just get to disappear. It was forever. UNLESS I annulled the marriage, thus voiding his immigration process. I agreed that there were times that I was being overly dramatic, I even admitted that I DID use OTHER things as leverage, like threatening to kick him out of the house or give him ultimatums for our relationship, and that I was very sorry for that and have told him repeatedly for years that I was sorry for that. BUT, when I felt like our relationship was falling apart, during all those break up/make up times that I really thought our marriage was coming to an end, I TRULY was always very scared and nervous about the immigration paperwork and where it would leave me if we chose to split. That I wouldn't want that on my record and which is why, all those times we were talking about breaking up, that was one of the first things that popped into my head. That "Oh sh*t" factor. 
-It happened to be that his only friends were John, Amy and her brother. He has one other friend but I guess to H that doesn't count because he lives states away and the just keeps in touch. And his only family that he actually knows and is close to, is his immediate family because he came here so young and didn't really know his other relatives. I didn't pursue his statement in MC, but I am here. I have to be honest, I'm sure if he actually had more SUPPORTIVE friends and family, it wouldn't have been like this. Because the same thing happened with some of my friends I cut out, but I still had others. And then I have a family member that I don't really talk to anymore, because she always thought H had alternative motives and although she never disrespected him or I, she stopped contacting as much. But I still have lots of other relatives. I can't help but feel like sometimes my H is or was jealous that I had such a huge support system. Or just sad that he never had one and blames it on me? Idk. 

Therapist:
-Told H that he should try to get out of the mindset that he can't share or value my opinion with his family because of the past. That my suggestion about sending his family back does not sound far fetch at all, especially with an ill father and at the time, a young teenager to raise. And that if he can't get out of that mindset, that he should at least question it.
-Said that there are so many layers to our relationship and that it is better for both of us individually and for our marriage, to make peace with the past and not let it get in the way of our marriage.
-Therapist said that he can understand why I was very edgy and constantly anxious about the immigration and "signing my life" off to him. H agreed and said he understood.
-Therapist asked if I felt any guilt about my suggestion about sending his mother and brother back. I said no, not at all. He asked my opinion, and I gave him my suggestion. And it's not like it was an easy answer, it was hard for me to answer. I didn't expect him to act on it. He was the one that said he was going to suggest it to BIL. Anyways, therapist stated, and I think he stated this for both of us, that we make the best decisions we can with what we got and know at that time. We can't predict if it's going to go well or bad, but just hope for the best. 
-Therapist asked H what I could do to make him feel more comfortable to talk about his family with me. H said nothing. H made the comment that I hated his family, especially his mother. I said to H and the therapist that I do not hate his family. Yes, I do not like their actions and how they treat my H. Yes, I did not like what his mother had to say to me in the past. But that I used to have this dream that his mother would be teaching me all these cooking tricks and knowing that my own mom wasn't going to be around for very long, I was looking forward to having someone to grow close to and have around for when I became pregnant. I told H that I think about his mother more often than he believes. That I probably think about her almost every time I'm in the kitchen. I told H that I wish he'd share more with me and that he may actually be surprised. Therapist agreed that H should give me more credit and that it would be nice if H didn't always have to deal with these recurring issues with his family on his own. 

There's another session I haven't updated you about yet, but I'll get to that tomorrow. Battery dying.


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## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> I don't feel jealous at all. Actually, scratch that. I was jealous that my husband cared more for these friends and being there for their lives than holding a future between us.


No, I meant that was HIS viewpoint. Remember, he's not going to see this all from YOUR viewpoint, and he's not going to blame himself, he's going to blame YOU, so he feels better about himself. So if you have a problem, it must be because you're a batsh*t crazy jealous woman.

Ok, back to finish reading. 

ETA: Ok, wow that was a very productive session! Couple thoughts: First, it's not YOUR fault that your H won't go out and make new friends. And his unwillingness to make new friends does NOT therefore make it ok for him to go back to the only people in his life who make YOU unhappy. If you have to, YOU go out and set up situations where he can meet new people. He's obviously shy and reserved and such people have a hard time sometimes just talking to people they don't know. Throw a block party so he can meet neighbors. Sign you both up for a class so he can make friends with the others in the class. Get creative. Help him fill his life so that his loneliness and bitterness are the only things sustaining him.

Second, you have now opened the gate to start bringing up his 'weakness' when it comes to his family. It is THE HUGE ELEPHANT in the room in your marriage. It permeates EVERYTHING - he has to give money, he has to let his brother do what he wants, he won't even defend himself against his brother...it's never ending. You simply MUST bring this up and get him to start getting actual therapy for it, either in MC or in IC.


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## PieOhMy

*Quick note: A few days ago H received email from his little brother asking H to send more money because they have none for his school or food. H asked what I thought of the email (it's nothing new, I know he gets these like once a week). I told him that I have very mixed feelings about the whole situation. That I don't know what it's really like where they are and I don't want to see them suffer. However, I can't help but feel they aren't trying hard enough to help themselves and that he is in a way enabling them by continuing to send them money. H went on to say that he cannot be with someone that expects him to abandon his family and let his brother starve. He said that he doesn't want to have a family with someone who may abandon them when things get tough, and that if I'm not okay with that, then I do what I have to do. I told him I never asked him to abandon his family. That I only asked that what we sent did not affect what we agreed to put into our bills and savings, and that it did not come before our own well being. That I didn't ever want it going back to how it was with the crippling amounts we used to send them.That i understand he's a rock in a hard place, but that so am I. That I'm trying to protect our finances for our future but trying to understand my husband's concerns for his family back home. He said if it weren't for his little brother being there, he would not send his parents money. I didn't even pursue his comment about me abandoning our future family, I think I was still in shock. But I told him that I need to know that he will put our finances and well being first, that if he wants to send more money, go ahead. But it is coming out of his cash for the week and not the credit cards or anything else. He said he's going to do his best.

I then told him that I feel like he doesn't give me any credit for anything I do or have done in the past. I told him that him not valuing my opinion on finances and now not valuing my opinion with his family made me wonder what he actually does value about me -I asked him if he values me at all? I asked him if he loves me. He said yes. I said that I really have it in my head that you don't. He asked why I was with him then. I said because I'm giving this a chance to work and that I'm waiting for something to happen or for some changes that will show me he does. That I don't feel it from him. Convo ended. He didn't really respond to me. 

Now, our most recent MC session. I took the lead a little with this one.

Me:

-I feel like my H doesn't give me any credit for anything I do. I question if he even values me for anything more than cooking and sex. Just because I don't have a full time job, even if I didn't have a job at all, shouldn't cause any less respect to my opinion. That i personally feel it's irrelevant.
-That I feel like he sometimes takes all his guilt and all his anger out on me. That all these things he's still caught up on with everyone else gets projected on me. My example: He blames me for his mom and little brother going back. But I was not the one to put this in action, I was not the one that told my mom "either you go or we report you, you have to go." I was not the one that filled out the paperwork. I wasn't his older brother that agreed with it in a ten minute phone conversation. I stated that i feel like he has his own anger and guilt about it, and ends up putting it on me.
-Told him that I don't feel appreciated or felt as though he ever gave me credit for anything. Not when I got good grades in my classes, not when I graduated college, not when I made it through everything with my mom. I told him that I am a smart and beautiful person, and what hurts the most is I have all my friends and family telling me so many positives about myself, but the one closest to me, my husband, is the one that's not.

My H actually didn't have much to say in response. That he's not used to showing so much gratitude. That it's weird to him. He never had it in his family. I think he was kind of shocked or clueless about how to respond to what I said. I was talking a good amount of the time. 

He did say "Well she finally got a job, just the other day, but that's because I've been on her about it a little more. I don't feel like she was really trying before. She said she put applications in but not all of them."

I almost threw my shoe at his face. 

My response: "No, it's not. It's because I finally got a lot of responses these past three weeks. That I put three rounds of applications in these past six months. My first round came up empty, my second round I got two job offers, declined one but took the other. Then resigned after learning the unsanitary procedures they took and that they were flagged by the state. And now, my third round, I've gotten four bites. 4 BITES. And I've taken two of the jobs. (I'm going to quit the part time I have now and take a small full time (35 hrs/week) and a part time). I've been putting my applications in. There have been places I've applied to twice."

I was pretty heated our last session...That time of the month. I went on to say,

"You have no idea what I do with my day. You don't ask me how my day was, you don't ask me what I did that day. You have no idea what I've been doing. So I'd appreciate it if you stopped acting like you know what I do with my day, because you don't. You don't even bother to ask. 
And I feel SO STUPID. Because I actually started to believe that maybe I really am a bum, maybe I am a loser, because I can't even get a decent job! I actually started doubting myself, once again, after the negative things I hear from you. But I got these jobs. Both places I applied to before and just never heard back. This time when I applied, they called me back. They do say September/October is a higher employment time. But you just don't like to give me credit for anything."

I felt bad for the therapist. I was pretty assertive/borderline aggressive with what I said. 

Therapist said:

-H mentioned that he thinks I'm very black and white, therapist says he sees where H is coming from, but that he sees it in my H as well. That we both need to start leaving some room for the grays. That just because my H doesn't show appreciation, doesn't mean he doesn't love me. And that just because my H thinks I feel a certain way about his family, doesn't mean that's how it's going to be with a family of our own in the future.
-Therapist congratulated me on my two new jobs and gave H some homework. Asked H to take some time to think about what he can say or do to show more appreciation and excitement for my good news.
-Asked H about positive reinforcement in his own household. H said there wasn't any, that nobody ever did that. That sometimes it seems abnormal to him. Therapist said that sometimes marriage is a way of therapy too. That H can take this time to learn to do so, that marriage forces us to learn to do a lot of things. Asked H if he would want his own children to grow up without positive reinforcement, H said no.
-Therapist jokingly said that he gave us a B for being able to have such a serious convo outside of MC and it not going to a bad place or ruining our day. He said it's not an A because of our black and white habits lol.

So yeah...That was that. At least what I can remember right now. I'm sure more will come back later.

In the car ride home, H asked me what was wrong. (I was being quiet). I told him that it's not just the job. That I need appreciation in all areas. That I feel like he doesn't even see my positives, that even my positives he turns into negatives. I gave him an example with my academics. He would say that I am very smart but then say to me "What textbook did you get that out of?" Mocking me. "Sometimes you're too smart for your own good." He took it well, tried to comfort me and said that things never come out the right way when he's mad and that he doesn't always know how to express himself. I said I understand but that after hearing it so often, it's hard to believe he doesn't mean it. We left it on a good note, went on with our day.

So that's the entire update.


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## PieOhMy

Btw. Just to clarify, I've only had a part time job since I went back to school. I had part time because I was taking some courses, and once I got my certification, I started my job hunting. The new part time job is already official, contract signed and everything. The full time, I have yet to sign the contract so it's not official yet, but she offered me a position, I did give her my verbal acceptance and after I got my drug screening and physical done, we'd set up another appointment for paperwork. So keep your fingers crossed for me please! It's good pay and beautiful hours!! The facility and people seem great. I could even take another class next semester if I wanted to. So this is the one I'm really counting on. BUT, I do have a back up plan. The part time I accepted said they will be offering new full time positions in January, so at least I got my foot in the door.


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## turnera

Outstanding! My suggestion is that for the next couple sessions you ask to do a bunch of role playing. I know that I'm like your H - never learned to do the positive stuff, and it does NOT come naturally. It is hard! The only way I ever learned to speak nice stuff without dying of embarrassment was to do the role playing in therapy.


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## farsidejunky

That is progress, Pie.

There are many times in life that we just need to persevere just a bit longer to reach something great.

Your situation is shaping up that way.


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## Blossom Leigh

This update does not thrill me on some major points. Do you want children being raised by a man who can't express himself, is severely codependent on his family and has expressed that he will not be raising future children with positive reinforcement??? That sounds utterly miserable to me.

Codependency spreads to everyone and can create addictions. Lack of expression means he is emotionally unavailable to you and kids, making you even lonlier than you are now. And they will grow up thinking their father never approved of anything they did creating more unhealthy people pleasers keeping unhealthy codependency alive and destroying families. Please get into Adult Children of Alcoholics to give yourself a fighting chance at recognizing good relationship material.

One more thing, if your Love Language is words of affirmation and he thinks that is an abnormal activity to offer, you guys have deeper issues than even previously known. This mismatch is so huge, I am not convinced it can be overcome, nor that you should want to or try given how young you are and the gift of having no kids yet.

Sorry T & F.... All I saw was him pushing her away... Again. And at this point, I think she should let him.


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## turnera

No, I get it. But I've also seen people change when given a challenge - assuming the reward is something they really want. If he realizes he may lose her, he may be willing to go outside his comfort zone and LEARN to be open and honest, to 'give' love. And if he goes to enough therapy, he might learn that he can stand up to his brother and family and not suffer some mystical tragedy.

She's not ready to walk yet, so at this point, why not continue the MC and see where it leads?


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## Blossom Leigh

This one would be beyond my comfort zone. The ONE thing my H had going for him was emotional intelligence and the ability to express himself. He just had to learn to be constructive with it. In contrast my ex did not have emotional intelligence and there was no way forward in that situation. So, consider wisely OP.

I'm all for giving people a healthy shot... just be aware of when you may cross the line into delusion Pie... it is a VERY fine line.


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## PieOhMy

I hope I haven't. I'm probably right next to it, though. See, it's right there: ------------- lol. It's something I'm still learning and trying to figure out. It's been 4 months of MC once a week. The fighting has decreased, the exhaustion has decreased. But is it going to get any better than this? Will it come back? I wonder that all the time. That's only something I'll figure out with time. Unfortunately, H is a very slow learner. In my IC I discussed it with my therapist and I decided I'm going to give it a year from now. My H won't be made aware of this, but it's more of a time limit for me, personally. 

That way, I will know that I have given him plenty of time and have done what i could. That way I have time to better myself in the relationship and as a person. And that way, I'll still have plenty of time to start my life with someone else in the future.

 Last one is a little sad to think about. But I wanted to be done having kids by 35. I'm turning 27 next week. Next year I'll be 28. If things don't work out with H, I'd like to have some time to be on my own for a while and then hopefully meet someone new.


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## Blossom Leigh

Good for you. Short time frames in these type situations are wise. I did the same thing, but DID put mine on notice that it was there and just how long he had to step up or get out.


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## PieOhMy

There's a few things in therapy I'd like to eventually bring up:

-Would H consider seeing the therapist alone at times?
-Does H actually want to change?
-Just want him to talk and figure things out in his mind about his own family.
-If he really means it, if he really plans on pursuing his friendship with those people when we're "better or broken up" then yes, it will be when we're broken up, because I won't stick around for it. I'm definitely going to need some closure on that at some point.
-Tell him how I really need him to respect me, no matter what position I'm in. Whether I have a job or not, whether things are tough or not. That he'll always respect my opinion. He doesn't have to like it, just respect it.
-And of course things with putting him and I as the priority, as well as our future.


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## PieOhMy

There's something that still confuses me...

-Sometimes he is not honest about the way things happened. I know that everyone's got their own perspective, but for example: He stated at one point when we were discussing the friends situation, "My friends thought she was mentally unstable. And, let's face it, they were right. I mean, they saw all the scars on her arms. It's hard not to see them." I thought about that for a few days because it was really hurtful. But then I realized that the scars he was speaking of, I did not make until AFTER we stopped talking to his friends. And so in the next session, I interrupted the session to tell the therapist that. That H's statement the other day was false. And that the only time I ever showed his friends "strong emotions" was when I was telling Amy how my mom was doing, and she wasn't doing good at all, and I started tearing up. THAT WAS IT. Of course H had nothing to say in response to this. I don't like it when he does that, it's not the first time.

Any have some thoughts on why he does this? Is it intentional?


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## turnera

It's a human condition, to bundle up all your thoughts, fear, anger, into an 'image' of the person you feel those things about. So yes, it's quite possible he simply cannot remember what when where.

My bet is that he has TALKED to them about your past, and their comments about you being unstable stem from that. I would definitely bring up that in therapy because that is EXTREMELY private stuff he has no right telling them about.


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## PieOhMy

I really hope that's not the case. I would be very upset if it was. 

I also sometimes feel like he uses my mental health history as ammo or back up when he can't figure out anything else to use against me. Such as the situation I mentioned above. 

He's done it in the past. We would be arguing and he'd say things such as, "You're f*cking crazy. You need to talk to your therapist about this." I eventually drew a line and stated that he cannot tell me what I should be speaking to my therapist about, he has no idea what I speak with her about and if he wanted to talk about certain things, then we can go to MC. 

It's so unfortunate, because he really caused so much damage by responding to his friends and going to their house. I had been asking for him to go to MC for over a year when that happened.


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## Rosemary's Granddaughter

Hello, Pie, 
About the money situation with your in-laws--the email requests from the little brother need to stop. For one thing, it is manipulative of the in-laws to have their child asking for money. For another, your husband has already let them know that he will send x amount on x day each month. With this arrangement, this should not be an on-going issue--it continues to bring up a repetitive argument in your marriage.

My thoughts about your husband's wild accusation that you will abandon your future family--another manipulative comment to force you to allow his friendship with Amy. Don't fall for it...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

I'm not. It was way too far fetched. I didn't know how he could get that I would abandon any future family because I "expect him to abandon" his family. He said he's "seen it" before, that he's seen me do it with other family. 

I think he's talking about two instances: 1) Cousin who is in and out of rehab. I said once to H that eventually my cousin might have to hit rock bottom to change and that i wouldn't be against it if my Aunt and Uncle decided to kick him out of the house and just let him be on his own. 2) My dad is a functioning alcoholic. My H gets mad at how I treat my dad because when he's drunk, I ignore him or have very little patience with him and sometimes snap back. He also doesn't like that I've told my father that I'm not going to drive him around when he's drunk and he can rely on his own resources.

So i think that's what H is talking about.

But Rosemary, hope do you think the abandonment relates to Amy? That I don't understand.


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## PieOhMy

My H has told me I'm selfish and a pessimist. However, I happen to find him very naive. As I've told him before, I am a very generous person and I have a lot of love in my heart, but my generosity has a limit and I know there are some things that I cannot change, such as my cousin and my father. I'm not going to follow them around all my life because of something that only they can change. What he considers harsh, I call reality.


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## PieOhMy

And survival.


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## turnera

He doesn't understand boundaries, because he never grew up with them. All he knows is you have to give and give and give without complaint, or you get punished. So when he sees you protecting yourself, all he sees is a 'mean' woman, an unloving one, because all he knows is that love = putting everyone else first. 

That's actually a really important thing for you to discuss in therapy. Once he understands that, he'll be able to start seeing what you are doing for the marriage as something important and positive, rather than mean and punitive.


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## PieOhMy

Ah Tunera, you always sum it up just right lol.

I'm still trying to understand how Amy relates to abandonment...


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## PieOhMy

The Amy thing still hurts. But I have been doing a pretty good job not thinking about it too much. We used to joke around with each other, like when he found a pair of men's socks I got for him, he'd ask, "Who's that for?" And I'd respond saying stuff like, "Oh yeah, I got that for my other boyfriend, I didn't mean for you to see that haha." As a joke of course. But now I don't really like those jokes at all. Well, when he says it. He said it tonight, and the first thing I thought of was Amy. It made me sad. 

But I only sat on it for like 2 minutes and then we had dinner. So she's not really living rent free in my head so much anymore.


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## Rosemary's Granddaughter

Hey, Pie,
I didn't mean to comment and disappear! 

I was catching up on your thread the other day, and after reading everything, it gave me a strong impression of future accusations~he's already pigeon-holing you as an abandoner, and I suspect that could segue into a criticism of you rejecting his friends--all intended, I suspect, to manipulate you into proving him wrong by giving in to the friendship. I could be completely wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rosemary's Granddaughter

Can I ask about your family member who thought your husband had ulterior motives -- what did she think of him?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieOhMy

Well, she didn't like him at first. Mainly because he was my ex's brother. She kind of has a stigma towards him because of that. But once she got to know him, her and her husband and their kids really liked him. They got a long very well. But once we got married, she was very surprised. And not long after, she gradually stopped responding to me. It was kind of random. I never got a reason and her entire family gradually faded out of our lives. I still to this day don't know exactly why. I assume she was upset by us getting married. Even my Aunt, her mother, didn't really understand it but she and I still talk, we're very close and she loves my H.


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## PieOhMy

That's a very interesting thought, Rosemary. He hasn't brought up his friends. Neither of us have. I still might hit him with a frying pan if he says anything I don't like in reference to them. I want absolutely nothing to do with them and that's not going to change. He's not going to make me feel bad about that one.

When the time comes that we talk about it in therapy, I know I'll want to know if he still wants to pursue the friendship. Oof. I'm almost scared of his response.


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## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> And not long after, she gradually stopped responding to me. It was kind of random. I never got a reason and her entire family gradually faded out of our lives. I still to this day don't know exactly why. I assume she was upset by us getting married. Even my Aunt, her mother, didn't really understand it but she and I still talk, we're very close and she loves my H.


Pie, that's not good. People don't usually do that without a reason. IIWY, I'd try to find out why. It may be a misunderstanding, or it may be that he did something.


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## PieOhMy

It's a really long story. 

Mom died. I wasn't doing good. This was during the time I was cutting. Went into a program that consisted of group therapies and learning about medications and behaviors, etc. She was very worried at this time. This was also when she found out that we were married. (I didn't tell my family I was married until afterwards due to how bad things were at the time. But when I did tell my family, all of them supported me except her). Right after I went into the program, she got sick with mini strokes and was hospitalized. Never got to see her again. Spoke to her family a few times, but never her directly. A few texts about possibly getting lunch after she recovered, but never happened. That was 3-4 years ago now. I eventually stopped trying. And still talk to her daughter, my little cousin, via text every now and then. 

I at first thought she blamed me for her mini strokes. 

Then I thought she saw me as a stressor in her life and decided to take me out of it.

But overtime, I think it has something to do with all of it.

However, my Aunt says she has changed since the mini strokes and that she doesn't agree with what she's doing to me. I try not to bring it up though cause i don't want to put her in a bad position. I eventually just concluded that it had to do with a lot of different things. In her life and mine. 

It really hurt though, she was like a second mother to me. She lives only 15 minutes away from me. We were very close. My mother always said that if anything ever happened to her and my father, she'd want them to take care of me. That's how close we were. 

I've made my peace with it and decided that once my little cousin is old enough, like in college or out of the house, I would attempt to rekindle a relationship with her again. But I wouldn't want to push her, again, I don't want to put her in a odd position.


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## turnera

I'd suggest sending her a birthday or Christmas card, to break the ice.


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## PieOhMy

We still send each other Christmas cards


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## turnera

Put a nice note in it, with your phone number. Like "I sure miss you!"


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## PieOhMy

I've already done this, several times. To be honest, I don't really have any interest in talking to her anymore.


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## turnera

Sounds good. Just making sure you've explored every option.


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## 3Xnocharm

turnera said:


> He doesn't understand boundaries, because he never grew up with them. All he knows is you have to give and give and give without complaint, or you get punished. So when he sees you protecting yourself, all he sees is a 'mean' woman, an unloving one, because all he knows is that love = putting everyone else first.
> 
> T*hat's actually a really important thing for you to discuss in therapy. Once he understands that, he'll be able to start seeing what you are doing for the marriage as something important and positive, rather than mean and punitive.*


This is never going to happen...you should know this, T.


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## turnera

Actually, I believe ignorant people CAN learn.


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## PieOhMy

So I've been focusing on what he's been doing, not saying...I think this therapy might actually be working. 

Will update more tonight.


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## PieOhMy

Nevermind. I guess a glimpse of hope. I ended the relationship earlier today after an argument. His brother was helping someone every week that passed away recently. We invited him to my birthday dinner with some family and friends, (hoping he would feel better being around people) and right before we were going to leave to go, he said something came up and he had to go. And he left. Later he told H that it has to do with his ex gf. Of course that kind of put me on alert because last time BIL had issues with H and I being together, it was after a family event. Anyways, this was the argument:

H: Maybe we can do something with my brother this weekend. My parents told me he's depressed.
Me: Okay, sounds good.

Few hours later...

H: My brother just wants to hang out with me alone, do you mind?
Me: I guess not. Can you do me a favor, well two?
H: Like what?
Me: Can you not go bar hopping and try not to come home real late?
H: So now you're giving me a curfew?
Me: I'm just asking you to do this for me this time so I can feel a little better about it later. Your brother just walked out on my family and friends on my birthday and I can't help but feel it has something to do with us, again.
H: He said it had to do with his gf. You always do this, you always have to have it your way. You have to try to control everything I do.
Me: I'm not asking much. And I'm not asking this so I can control you, I'm asking you this so I can feel more comfortable with the situation and in the future, not question it so much.
H: So you're making this about you? You're so selfish. It's always about you.
Me: Okay. I get it, you don't want to do what I'm asking you. I hear you. I'll see you later.
H: No, you need to cut this sh*t out. You're f*cking ridiculous. Do you even get what I'm saying?
Me: Yes, you feel that I'm trying to sabotage you seeing your brother and that I'm trying to control you and manipulate the situation. But that's not what I'm doing. I know you are going to see your brother, I'm not going to try and stop you. I think that's good. But saying the track record he has during emotional times, I was asking you to do those two things for me so I wouldn't be so nervous. I see that you don't want to, I'm done arguing it. So why don't you go see him now? Why are you still here?
H: It's stuff like this that makes out hard for me to see how we'll ever be able to stay in this relationship. You acting like this. It's probably never going to work.
Me: You bring that up every argument like any argument can make or break our relationship. I really don't like that. 
H: Well that's how I feel with every argument. You make everything about yourself and you're so controlling. 

H basically saying the same thing over and over again. I told him I was done with the conversation several times. He kept pushing it. And then I finally just told him that I'm done with the relationship. That I'm exhausted, and that I'm sick of being exhausted. That I'm tired and I just want him to leave me alone. That I don't want to talk to him about anything because he always ends up hurting me. And that maybe he should consider packing an overnight bag. He didn't say anything and just left. 

I don't want him here. I want a separation, nothing less than that. And if he says he doesn't believe in separations (he's said this before), then so be it. He can stay out and start his own life without me in it.


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## Starstarfish

He went out bar hopping with his brother on your birthday and blew his stack at the request he not crawl home at some ungodly hour.

You made the right decision, Pie, as painful as it is. He doesn't respect you. I'd call a lawyer and start figuring out financial stuff before he tries to get everything to give to his family.


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## PieOhMy

Just to clarify, he didn't go bar hopping on my birthday. His brother left on my birthday because something came up with his EX gf. I asked earlier today, that when he saw his brother today, that he didn't go bar hopping or get drunk. And that he try not to come back too late, that it would be nice if we could still do something tonight or watch a movie. He said that we didn't have any plans so why does it matter.


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## PieOhMy

But either way. It wasn't nice.


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## 3Xnocharm

Forget separation and just file. As someone else mentioned, he has no respect for you. He made it clear that even you guys work through things that he would continue the friendship you oppose with the other couple. This is no way to live, you deserve better.


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## turnera

I have to agree. You have no kids, you're still in your 20s. Just learn from this and move on. He can then involve himself in his family and give them all his money to his heart's content and stay their slave for the rest of his life.


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## farsidejunky

Pie:

He isn't growing. Or when he shows glimpses of getting it, his emotions get the best of him. 

The lousy thing is he has to want to grow. You can't do that for him.

My wife experienced several years of frustration over very similar things from me. It took a sexless and loveless marriage to wake me up.

Many do not wake up at all, which is why WAW'S are becoming increasingly common.

You have to look out for yourself now.


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## PieOhMy

He agreed about the separation. And he's going to start looking for a place this week.


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## PieOhMy

We talked about how we're going to cut up the finances in the meantime. Seems pretty fair.


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## farsidejunky

Do you see this as a trial separation or just a step in the process of divorce? What are your hopes?


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## lucy999

This is going to sound weird but therapy really agrees with you, Pie. Your last verbal exchange with him was so impressive. I learned alot from that exchange. You really kept your cool and you deserve high props for that.

Keep your chin up, you've gone far above and beyond to make this relationship work. You've put the time and effort in; I'm sorry he didn't.


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## PieOhMy

I'm hoping its a trial separation. We'll be discussing the details of it in therapy this week. But I know it can also be the beginning of the end.


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## Openminded

If you separate, keep in mind that separations generally are permanent. Not many marriages come back from a separation although a few do. Often one of the spouses uses the separation as an excuse to date others instead of working on the marriage. Be prepared and have a plan either way.


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## PieOhMy

Nonetheless, he went to go see BIL (older brother) who lives about 2 hrs away. That costs gas money. But he also wanted to get a haircut this weekend. AND he promised his little brother (the one that's in their home country with their parents) a game card. But this is the part that upset me, yesterday, he asked me if he could have $20. I said, "For what? There's plenty of fun money for you to use." He ended up using it on gas to see his brother and get something to eat with him. He didn't get to get his haircut either. And then he mentioned that he doesn't have enough for the week AND to get his little brother the game card. I told him that he should have thought about that before he promised him the card or went all the way down to see his brother. He didn't say anything else after that. But this was what I was scared of, that he'd lean on me when he fell short. He doesn't have to send his parents that money every month. He doesn't have to buy game cards. He can't do it all.


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## turnera

He'll really be in trouble when you aren't combining income.


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## Melisareys

I'm so blessed to have known johnsmoran you are God sent


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## PieOhMy

Well my income went to Savings anyways since I wasn't making much. I'm making more now, but it's still nowhere near what he makes. 

Btw, we actually talked about the friends thing. He said he was very sorry and that he'd rather have me in his life than them. He said it was stupid and he was mad and felt he did it out of spite. (I was ready to suffocate him).

Well, that was really good news to me. But, that really doesn't mean much if this separation leads to divorce. So it didn't really phase me.


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## turnera

I don't think he ever thought you would leave him.


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## PieOhMy

He started looking for apartments. I see my IC today and then we see the MC on Wednesday. I guess we'll see where that takes us.


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## PieOhMy

I'm kind of scared and sad. I never really thought it would come to this.


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## PieOhMy

Hi. I'm back. Not sure if anyone is even interested anymore. But things have gotten a lot better and H and I are back together. Still having issues of course, but communication has gotten much easier. And boundaries are finally being laid! 

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## turnera

Really? So he no longer gives his family any money?


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## Blossom Leigh

Blossom Leigh said:


> Pie... why did you stay silent on the black eye when I mentioned TWO MONTHS AGO I was surprised he hadn't hit you already? I read the writing on the wall that he was VERY capable of this and yet you remained silent that it had already happened. I can tell you why.... its what abused victims do, stay silent, and the ONLY way to break the cycle is to break the silence. *NEVER* remain silent on what has happened and how severe NO MATTER what you feel you did to "cause" it.
> 
> There is NO excuse unless he is trying to save his own life. Educate yourself on abuse at all levels. You need to be aware of what is called Stockholm Syndrome.
> 
> Leslie Morgan Steiner: Why domestic violence victims don't leave | TED Talk | TED.com
> 
> 
> I KNEW this guy was a full on abuser. I don't think your counselors are doing you any favors at this point if they are not addressing that head on and hard core. Thank God you have no children right now. Does your Dad know he gave you a black eye?


Hey Girl... glad to see you back. Did you guys address his abuse?


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## PieOhMy

We are down to giving his family $100/month. And his little brother a video game card once a month at $20. And we both had a discussion with his family about how we will no longer be sending money after this year. It didn't go well at first, and they're still rejecting the idea, but it is something that H and I agreed on. But we will cross that bridge when we get there. Who knows what bs his parents may pull. 

We discussed the abuse. It was actually the main topic before he came back home. He's got some new coping methods which seem to be working but seem kind of silly. Video games and a bench press lol. I also finally shared all the details of the abuse with my father. He was actually involved in the conversation with H about it and it really broke down H, I think he was ashamed. But I was proud of my dad, he managed to not take sides in the conversation, keeping it very mutual. Things still haven't gotten to that extreme and I hope it never does again. 

As for BIL. I finally confronted him and told him that I feel he does not respect me or my marriage, and that I feel he purposely tries to push my buttons and that it has to stop. He of course flipped out in response and brought up our past and said we need to talk in person since we never talked about what happened (about me being with H). I told him I would have lunch with him in a public place in an effort to make peace and put my best foot forward. Of course he ended up bailing out. Probably for the best. But at least I tried. I of course told H everything and even told him how BIL even said to me at one point "I was in love with you. I loved you so much." (Ew). And I told H that he obviously isn't over it and I don't want him in my life. If we are ALL going to work things out, I want ALL of us present --for both of us to be there for the conversation this time. Not just H, not just me, both, as a team. Of course BIL tried to weasel his way back in our lives after a month of no communication and had the nerve to ask H to buy/spot him for a car part. And my H finally told him, bluntly, that BIL has to cut the sh*t out with me and our marriage and he needs to start helping with their family overseas as well. BIL flipped out once again and we haven't talked to him since. That was actually recent. But fortunately, this time H doesn't want anything to do with him right now. We'll see what the future brings.



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## 3Xnocharm

Sorry but I think you are wasting your time. Your H doesn't deserve getting this chance with you and isn't worthy of the time and effort. It's nice that you're hopeful but I just don't see things going well. Sorry for being blunt. Best of luck to you.


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## Plan 9 from OS

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. You know where I stand on this from my earlier posts in your thread. However, it's not my life and as long as you are happy with it then I'm glad for you.


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## turnera

What is your agreement with your husband about what YOU will do when he backslides and gives his parents or one of his brothers more money?


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## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> What is your agreement with your husband about what YOU will do when he backslides and gives his parents or one of his brothers more money?


or lays his hands on you again? He hasn't done the hard work on that yet... you know that right?


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## turnera

Remember, what YOU will do if he backslides and gives in to them - or hits you - these are YOUR boundaries.

Every human should have them. Even your H, should you do something bad to him, hard as it seems.

A boundary is what you agree YOU WILL NOT ACCEPT in YOUR life. 

A consequence is what you agree that YOU will then DO if he crosses your boundary, crosses your line in the sand.

It's not something you make HIM do. You know, since you can't make him do ANYTHING - that just hands him your power.

A consequence is what YOUR therapist would tell YOU to do, to protect yourself. If he over steps your boundary (in other words, if he gives them more money anyway or if he hurts you).

Since you are now in a 'honeymoon period,' you need to make it clear what YOU will do IF or WHEN he gives them more money or hits you. While he's calm and trying to make you happy.

"Honey, I've been researching this, and I need to come up with boundaries that protect me. If you end up giving your parents or brothers any more money, or if you hit me again, I am going to - "

And you will list what you will do. Leave the house, go to a hotel or friend, move out, file for divorce, whatever it is. But there are two points to these consequences - either/and to give you space from what HE does, or make him suffer your consequence so that he learns that you mean business, that he doesn't GET to just do what he wants (or what they want him to do) and still KEEP YOU.

Got it?


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## PieOhMy

I definitely got it. Honestly, some of the greatest things I've learned from this forum that have really helped me through this are boundaries and self respect.

There were nights that I did leave for the night and stayed at a friend's just because he started yelling. I literally just looked at him and grabbed my keys and walked out. I didn't respond to his calls or texts for a few hours and would only text him saying stuff like "I'm not going to talk to you if you're going to yell. It's childish. I'll see you tomorrow."

Don't get me wrong. I did have my own blow up on him recently, though. I kind of snapped but it only lasted a few minutes and fortunately he didn't feed into it. 

I know we have a long haul. And I thank you all for your support. 

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## turnera

I know you understand.

But did you SET IT UP?


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## Blossom Leigh

Good work Pie... I agree with T.. set it up that way so its crystal clear. I told my H if he ever lays a hand on me again, cops will be called and charges pressed without a second thought earlier on in our recovery.


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## Peaf

I did not read the 123 pages of replies, and only half of the original post, but my 2 cents:
If he's spooning or cuddling or whatever with another woman, you are UNDER thinking things.


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## PieOhMy

I sure did. I said to H individually, again with my dad present, and then again in MC that the next time he touches me like that, I will call the cops, inform my father immediately and our relationship will be over. My father says we can b*tch and moan all we want but he will not tolerate any violence in our house, period. 

I know it took a lot of posts but I feel as though I really took a lot from this forum. My IC has been out this past month because of surgery. She is available to talk but I haven't really felt the need to. I've been getting a lot of support from my friends. And even new friends at my job. I've been socializing more, I go out to lunch more. I'm even working out twice a week. Not much, but a start. And I lost 5 lbs. Again, not much, but better than nothing.

I feel like it just happened like a switch one day, I just stopped listening to him one day. And I told him I take responsibility for the part I played in this, but I will not take responsibility for you. And I just walked away. If he really pushed it, I'd leave. I just feel like I have a lot more strength. 

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## PieOhMy

And there's no honeymoon phase here. We're still arguing and more secrets of his are coming out. Which are hurting but I'd rather have the truth. But we're actually working through them, like adults, instead of a bunch of teenagers. When things got bad and I would walk out to go for a drive or visit with a girlfriend, he used to not bother calling or texting me. I could be gone for hours and he wouldn't question it. But when he was out of the house, during one of our sessions, I told him that it did make me feel like he didn't care but in the end, it just taught me how to live without him and I thanked him.

Before his brother's last tantrum, I told H that I no longer wanted to see BIL so often. To feel free to make plans with him or go visit him, but that I don't want to be around him. One day, H tried to say "Well don't worry, we'll be at the shop. We would only come by the house for little bit maybe to get something to eat." Um, again, this part: "WE WOULD ONLY COME BY THE HOUSE FOR A LITTLE BIT," and I was like, "I'd rather you didn't come by the house with him at all. This is our home, this is my safe spot. I just told you that I did not want to see him. Why don't you guys go do something at his place?" And he responded defensively at first but afterwards he said he understood why I would be uncomfortable and that he doesn't want to push BIL on me. And he didn't. I was free of BIL for almost 2 months until he had his tantrum. It was awesome. 

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## PieOhMy

And I'm actually still free of him now!!

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## turnera

And then what happened?


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## PieOhMy

With BIL? 

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## PieOhMy

H started seeing less of him. And on his own, he started getting fed up with him. But still didn't want to see the truth. Paraphrasing:

Me: Your brother asked what we were doing for New Year's. I told him I didn't know but that I'm working. He said he wanted to kidnap you for the night while I'm at work. Honestly, maybe it's a joke, but he's very rude to me and I feel like he says stuff like this to just push my buttons, and I'm getting sick of it. 
H: I really don't see that but if it's upsetting you then say something to him.

So I did. I told him I feel like he's rude and disrespectful towards me and our marriage, that if I'm wrong, then I'm sorry. But if I'm right, that it has to stop and I will no longer tolerate it. Of course BIL flipped, texted and texted me, then called me. Saying the stuff about how dare you talk about respect, what you and my brother did to me. Blah blah blah. I loved you. I loved you so much blah blah. That's when that whole scene happened. 

And that's when H finally got fed up with him and told BIL that they weren't going to be doing anything together until BIL gets over the past and he even brought up how he wanted him to help their family overseas. BIL flipped out again. They haven't talked since, but it's only been two weeks.

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## turnera

Well, that's something. IIWY, I'd make up a spreadsheet of all the money you guys have given his family (including BIL) and all the money BIL has given his family, and just keep a printed copy, waiting, until the next time be shows his asshattery again. Then just calmly hand him the list. "When your contributions equal ours, we can talk again."


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## PieOhMy

I don't have a spreadsheet but I've kept all the receipts and have everything written down with dates and their reason. And i have no idea what he's sent to them. I doubt we'll ever actually know. 


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## PieOhMy

Also, our most recent issue and one of the things that came out about a month ago: When we first got together and more so just friends, he told me he wasn't into porn because he never had much privacy because he always shared a room with his two brothers. Now, our sex life has been dwindling for some time and there were times we would go 2 months without sex. I always asked him if he looked at porn or anything wondering why he rejected me so much, and he ALWAYS told me no. I finally got fed up with it about a month ago and confronted him, and found out that he's been masturbating to porn at work. He said it's been going on for about a year and he just liked to watch "regular" guy and girl stuff only a couple times a month. But then in a conversation a few days after that, he said it was a "few" times a month and that he liked watching girl on girl, guy on girl, anal and just one girl alone and some over thr stuff. So at this point I don't believe one word he says because I don't know when he's telling me the truth or not and he's been lying to me for a year. 

Anyways, over the past few weeks I've come to the conclusion that I am not okay with this at all. I wouldn't be so bothered if he were masturbating alone, but the fact that he's getting off to other women made me sick to my stomach. 

I asked him at one point how he would feel if I told him that I wanted to masturbate and get off to a guy playing with his hard big d*ck or a bunch of guys lusting over a girl that I imagined was me. He said he wouldn't be comfortable with it. 

I know this is a very controversial topic and that it is something society is saying is okay. But I told my husband that I was not okay with it and that the idea made me sick. He said he would stop because our marriage is very important to him. And it's been a month since then but I've lost a lot of trust in him. We've also been exploring each other sexually and for the first time I can orgasm during intercourse. So I'm excited. But it still hurts my feelings that he did that. It makes me nauseous to think about it. I feel like it's an infidelity. I think it's perverted. The fact that he was rejecting me but getting off to this sh*t, I feel cheated. It makes me want to glue his d*ck to his stomach so that he can bust on his face the next time he did it.

I just feel so cheated on and betrayed. And I don't even know how I could trust him after all his lying. 

The MC said that he thinks we should try and focus on our intimacy and our relationship in general and perhaps the porn wouldn't matter as much. And I had to stop the discussion and make it very clear that the porn would not be okay with me either way. He said he understood and we discussed how it is often problem in relationships and that we're not alone. 

Call me old fashioned, but I never signed a waiver that said "it's okay for my husband to bust a nut to other naked women doing God knows what." 

I masturbate. Not often but I do, I call it bubble bath time. I've seen porn before when I was younger and recently looked a few times to see what he's looking at, it still disgusts me. It’s just weird and feels weird watching. Like, uncomfortable.

He said that even though he did feel like it desensitized himself to me and that he feels like it was bad, he does feel closer to me having told me and all. 

Oof. Thanks, H. That's great, but I still have this nasty image of you bringing your phone into the little bathroom in the hallway where all the guys pass through and you choking your chicken to it some girl getting something thrusted in her *ss. Ew.

I want to trust that he hasn't looked but I don't. The trust is lost. But then again, I feel like we've been communicating and doing so much better. How do I trust him again? 

What are your opinions?

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## PieOhMy

This is why I said there's no honeymoon phase. Things are coming out now that we're communicating more. Oof.

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## turnera

How do you want him to prove it to you?


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## PieOhMy

I don't know. I don't think there is any way for him to prove it to me. I know there's software out there that monitors Internet Activity but that sounds ridiculous. Like I would feel like I'm stalking him and I don't want to be his mother. 

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## turnera

But at this point, if you are to stay together, he should be willing to install it and not give you grief about it.


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## PieOhMy

But wouldn't that be an invasion of his privacy? 

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## turnera

There's no such thing as privacy in a marriage, except maybe the bathroom. He has SHOWN you that he lies; therefore, if he wants to stay married, it behooves him to earn back your trust. Like I said, he should be willing and eager to do it for you. If he isn't, take a moment to think about what that means.

Why are you backing down and not pressing your own needs? What are you afraid of?


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## PieOhMy

Because I don't want to become that woman that spies on her husband. It feels controlling or invasive. Idk, I can't explain it. 

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## turnera

IMO, you need therapy. You SHOULD be keeping tabs on a husband who has proved himself to be untrustworthy. ONE of you needs to protect the marriage. And it seems to me that you are being meek and controlled.


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## PieOhMy

How am I being meek and controlled? 

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## turnera

By being unwilling to express your needs and set a boundary with consequences.


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## PieOhMy

I have expressed my needs. But I didn't feel consequences included spying/monitoring my husband's activity. I don't even think my therapists would think that's a good idea. 

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## turnera

It's not a consequence. It's not a punishment. It's a way for you to know if he is cheating. Period.


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## *Deidre*

3Xnocharm said:


> Sorry but I think you are wasting your time. Your H doesn't deserve getting this chance with you and isn't worthy of the time and effort. It's nice that you're hopeful but I just don't see things going well. Sorry for being blunt. Best of luck to you.


This.

What a waste of a good life, to spend it on someone who is abusive, and incredibly narcissistic.


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## PieOhMy

I don't know. I can't get past putting something on my husband's phone or tablet as a way to monitor him. I don't feel that's right. Are there any other options? 

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## turnera

Hold your hand out at random times and ask to look at his phone.


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## PieOhMy

I do that anyways. But I don't say it like that, I just say "Can I use your phone?" And he hands it over. And I use it and sometimes I look through it. I don't ever find anything. I've looked at his phone when he's sleeping at the end of the night when my phone is dead and that's when I really look, and I never find anything. 

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## PieOhMy

But that's how it's always been. I've never found anything throughout our relationship except stuff that I was already aware of, like stuff with his family and friends. Nothing like this, nothing that he lied to my face about repetitively and hid for a year. 

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## PieOhMy

I guess I'm really caught in the middle here. Porn feels bad to me and I never liked the idea of it. I don't want my husband to have anything to do with it. But a lot of my friends and even my therapist say that it may be too high of an expectation. "All guys watch porn. It's just cause they're more visually stimulated. They're made differently than us. Doesn't mean he doesn't love you." 

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## turnera

I've never cared about porn. In fact, my H and I would go to adult stores and pick out a video to take home and watch together, to get me more in the mood. We'd joke about how corny the story is and how bad the acting always is. And then about how unrealistic the positions are. "Don't expect ME to be doing that, lol." That kind of thing. 

Why didn't it bother me? Because I knew my H wanted me, and only me. So when I think of porn, I do NOT think 'my H is wishing he had one of them instead of me.' 

Maybe that's your problem.


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## synthetic

Literally ZERO men have wished to exchange their wives with the girl being banged in a porn video since the beginning of time. ZERO.

Yet, it's still the #1 insecurity for women against porn!


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## PieOhMy

I've never thought that. I know my husband would not prefer a porn star over me. My husband hates or thinks very low of girls that look or act trashy. It's more of the actual act of looking and getting off to it. I see it as a violation and degrading.

When I asked him how he would feel if I started looking at porn and masturbating to it and watching big hard d*cks, he said he wouldn't want me doing that. That he wouldn't like it and that it would make him uncomfortable. 

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## PieOhMy

Why is it okay for my husband to look at other naked women performing sexual acts and masturbating to it? Why should I accept that? When did that become okay? That's my first issue with it. Why should I be comfortable with my husband watching other naked women. It's real women. That's my first problem. 

Second problem. I think it's weird and it creeps me out in some ways. There are girls from my high school on those websites. They started when they were 15. And they're on there still. 

One of my best friends, years ago, had her house raided by police and they took possession of all their computer devices. And then her father was arrested. The police said he was guilty of watching underage porn. He swears he thought everything was of age. He was a neurologist. Last thing I heard, he was driving trucks. My friend was one of three sisters. 

Why does it have to be okay? Because society says it is? Is it really okay? 

That's my rambling. Those are my exact thoughts. 



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## ConanHub

PieOhMy said:


> Why is it okay for my husband to look at other naked women performing sexual acts and masturbating to it? Why should I accept that? When did that become okay? That's my first issue with it. Why should I be comfortable with my husband watching other naked women. It's real women. That's my first problem.
> 
> Second problem. I think it's weird and it creeps me out in some ways. There are girls from my high school on those websites. They started when they were 15. And they're on there still.
> 
> One of my best friends, years ago, had her house raided by police and they took possession of all their computer devices. And then her father was arrested. The police said he was guilty of watching underage porn. He swears he thought everything was of age. He was a neurologist. Last thing I heard, he was driving trucks. My friend was one of three sisters.
> 
> Why does it have to be okay? Because society says it is? Is it really okay?
> 
> That's my rambling. Those are my exact thoughts.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


It definitely is not ok because it isn't ok with you.

It is kind of unreal how you stay with this thing parading as a husband.

I don't think you like yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AliceA

PieOhMy said:


> What are your opinions?


What's my opinion? Well, first of all, that was pretty funny. Not trying to make light of your situation, but you certainly have a way with words, lol.

As for porn; DH and I don't watch it and don't feel a need to watch it. It's really not going to add anything to our lives. We watched it together once and I just found it dehumanising. I'm not sure how I'd react if DH started to watch it, but at a guess, I'd probably see him in a different light.


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## Blossom Leigh

Its not ok pie...


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## turnera

If it's not ok with one person in the marriage, it's not ok for the other to have it.


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## jdawg2015

You really think zero men fantasize about being with another woman while with their wife after watching porn?

And them shaming the person who does not like porn. 

Classic.


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## AliceA

synthetic said:


> Literally ZERO men have wished to exchange their wives with the girl being banged in a porn video since the beginning of time. ZERO.
> 
> Yet, it's still the #1 insecurity for women against porn!


Yeah, that's not going to hold up to scrutiny.


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## Starstarfish

synthetic said:


> Literally ZERO men have wished to exchange their wives with the girl being banged in a porn video since the beginning of time. ZERO.
> 
> Yet, it's still the #1 insecurity for women against porn!


I'd say it's more likely an "insecurity" in a relationship where your husband seems to so clearly dismiss your feelings. Or that he's a total hypocrite about so many things including porn.

Do love the casual belittlement though where a woman having a contrary opinion is her having "insecurity." (AKA inappropriate feelings and probably some kind of female mental illness.)

Must be like all those men with concerns about women fantasizing about bigger ones (or other men) if they use toys.


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## PieOhMy

It's not okay. It's not okay for me.

I need to think of how to approach this. Because even if we were to decide to put something on his phone, he could still find another way to do it. I feel it's out of my control and until we're able to communicate about it more freely, without strain or argument, I don't think I'll be able to trust him again. 

I think I do need to share what I've shared here in our next MC session, and make it very clear that I am not in favor of porn or being with a man that supports it.

I'd like to help him stop but if he decides he does not want to or cannot, then I will not settle. 



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## PieOhMy

Any other thoughts or suggestions before I go forward? Our MC is next week. 

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## Blossom Leigh

PieOhMy said:


> Any other thoughts or suggestions before I go forward? Our MC is next week.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Yea... hold the vision of better treatment at home regardless of who it is. Anything that falls outside of that, heads in the wrong direction.


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## turnera

Make the MC session about all the ways in which YOU have sacrificed to make HIM happy, yet he has not returned the favor.


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## PieOhMy

I think the therapist will point out how H has stopped contacting his friends and how he has stopped using the porn and that he's not sending as much money anymore to his family. And so he HAS done or changed a lot for our marriage, etc.

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## turnera

Then write out a list of the things he's done over the years aside from those two issues. And read those out loud to the MC in front of him. Tell the MC that it's more than just those issues - it's the general lack of respect and the lack of equal treatment.


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## AliceA

I've never been to marriage counselling, but this idea that things can only be discussed in front of the counsellor feels like a way to manipulate a couple into having to continually go back because that's the only time they actually talk about anything.


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## Starstarfish

breeze said:


> I've never been to marriage counselling, but this idea that things can only be discussed in front of the counsellor feels like a way to manipulate a couple into having to continually go back because that's the only time they actually talk about anything.


Or the counselor is concerned that he/she sees signs that things might get physical if there is no third party moderating the fight.


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## Blossom Leigh

breeze said:


> I've never been to marriage counselling, but this idea that things can only be discussed in front of the counsellor feels like a way to manipulate a couple into having to continually go back because that's the only time they actually talk about anything.


It can sound that way, but it is a tactic to keep the fires put out while they are away from the counselor and eventually when the couple can self manage, then its no longer an issue


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## PieOhMy

Yes, that's what it acted as for us. We weren't good at communicating and still need a lot of work, but it saved us from having a lot of fights. And yes, there was a time that I didn't trust him to not get super angry or even physical. 

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## PieOhMy

We have our MC tonight. We had a great weekend until his parents started messaging him today about how they are starving and have no food. He said he's really worried about them and wants to send money from our savings. I told him not to and asked why he didn't use his extra $100 from fun money this week to send to them if he was so concerned. And then he told me he didn't need me lecturing him. And that he's going to do what he has to do. We'll see how this goes in MC tonight. 

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## 3Xnocharm

Pie, I just skimmed back through your thread. You have been a total doormat with this man from the time you were only DATING. You never should have put up with that whole Amy thing from the beginning. Why is it that you think all you deserve is the crappy treatment from a man who does not respect or prioritize you?


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## turnera

So, big surprise. As long as he gets what he wants, he treats you ok. As soon as his family guilt steps in, YOU DON'T MATTER.

You deserve better than this.


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## Starstarfish

The question here is do you want to spend the rest of your life working so your hard work and savings can continue to get sent to his parents endlessly? To his brother to play video games?

(How is the brother playing and affording video games if they have no money and are starving? They'd rather starve than sell the Xbox? I call serious BS.)

No matter what he says in MC, he's already said he's going to send it. And no doubt more than that $100. You can talk and talk, but the minute he gets those texts, this is what is going to happen. I will never really be settled, it's going to be ongoing. 

Your husband doesn't want a partner, he just wants someone to enable and accept what he wants to do and to bankroll his family.


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## PieOhMy

He ended up sending a $100. From his funny money the following week. I've started making his breakfast and coffee in the morning, and he's been preparing his own lunches. This is the new plan from now on, this was discussed in MC. And yesterday he gave me an extra $50 to put in savings. 

BUT...

I've put a lot of thought into this. I need to know if he's lying to me. About anything. Porn, money, family. I just don't trust him. And I don't want to live like this. I have to know. 

Do you know of a keylogger or monitoring app I can put on his phone that works in the background. He has a Samsung S5. 

I want to do this in secret. I want to know what my husband is really made of. Is he telling me the truth about everything? 

And even if we were to do this together, since he would know about it, I'd still always wonder if he's found an alternate way to keep things secret from me. Which is why I need to do it without him on board. I know this sounds bad, but I need to know. 

Is he really not sending anything else to his family? Has he really stopped looking at porn? Is there anything going on with his psycho brother? 

If any of you know of a monitoring software for smartphones, please let me know. Thank you. 

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## turnera

I wish I knew. Hopefully someone else will come along. You may want to start a thread in Infidelity, which gets a lot of views.


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## PieOhMy

Okay, thank you. 

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## PieOhMy

Btw, I've lost another 3 lbs!

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## 3Xnocharm

PieOhMy said:


> He ended up sending a $100. From his funny money the following week. I've started making his breakfast and coffee in the morning, and he's been preparing his own lunches. This is the new plan from now on, this was discussed in MC. And yesterday he gave me an extra $50 to put in savings.
> 
> BUT...
> 
> I've put a lot of thought into this. I need to know if he's lying to me. About anything. Porn, money, family. I just don't trust him. And I don't want to live like this. I have to know.
> 
> Do you know of a keylogger or monitoring app I can put on his phone that works in the background. He has a Samsung S5.
> 
> I want to do this in secret. I want to know what my husband is really made of. Is he telling me the truth about everything?
> 
> And even if we were to do this together, since he would know about it, I'd still always wonder if he's found an alternate way to keep things secret from me. Which is why I need to do it without him on board. I know this sounds bad, but I need to know.
> 
> Is he really not sending anything else to his family? Has he really stopped looking at porn? Is there anything going on with his psycho brother?
> 
> If any of you know of a monitoring software for smartphones, please let me know. Thank you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


If your trust is this eroded, why are you still hanging onto this worthless man?? Let him go! Don't bother with all the snooping and spying, the fact that you DONT TRUST HIM to this extent tells you everything you need to know! No man is worth this, especially not this one.


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## PieOhMy

I don't expect you to understand, but I need to do this for me. So if I find something I don't like, I know I'm walking away from 5 years of marriage, not because of the past, but because of what he is STILL doing, whether that deals with money, porn, friends or family. 

I need this peace.

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## farsidejunky

@GusPolinski

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## PieOhMy

What's the link to? 

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## GusPolinski

@farsidejunky, can I get the tl;dr version? Haven't been following this thread.


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## farsidejunky

Lousy marriage dynamic, hubby formerly physically abusive, gives money to family and says he doesn't, views porn and denies, etc. She wants to monitor. He has a Galaxy S5. 

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## PieOhMy

I decided not to put the software on his phone. A lot has happened in the past week. We had another conversation about the porn and intimacy, and I finally believed what he said. Maybe because this time he didn't get defensive about it and actually got a little emotional about it. Like he was really embarrassed about it and upset. I guess the fact that he kept talking about himself and why he did it and why he doesn't want to continue with it, rather then making it about what I'm doing wrong, maybe I felt like he heard me some and I actually believed him. I guess it felt like there was more heart behind it. 

And then just as that was getting better...

John, Amy's husband, texted him the other day saying, "Hi just wanted to say hi, hope all is well." He told me about it up front. And stated he chose not to respond. I suggested that he message back stating that he's decided not to pursue a friendship with them and wish them the best. He got defensive thinking I was trying to control the situation again. In a nut shell, I stated that if he's not over the past and those in it, then there's nothing that I want from this relationship. He kept saying he didn't know what he wanted, but that he does know he wants this relationship to work. He got very very emotional, and just very sad. I told him that I couldn't help but feel like John texting was just bad timing and this whole argument is a flare up because we're trying to recover from the porn and intimacy thing. I told him that I don't think he really cares for Amy and John, even 8 months ago when they texted him, I don't think he really cared so much. I think it was always about what they symbolized to him, and that was me seeming to take something from him and control him. I told him he needs to let it go and see what it really was and what matters now. I used myself as an example. I told him I resented him so long for not protecting me or our marriage more when his friends and family started their drama 5 years ago. I told him I had to own my part and take responsibility for my life and the choices I made through all of it. That I made my bed and now I must lie in it. I couldn't love him again until I let go of the past and made peace with my actions and his. I told him I feel like he's in my shoes a few years ago. But I've had it now and he needs to cut the sh*t. Time to grow up.

He actually agreed with most of it, and he seemed to feel better after all of it. Like nothing happened. 

But before I said all that, there was a point in the conversation i told him to lay with me and to relax, and he just started crying hysterically. I asked him what was upsetting him. He said different things. He said us at first and then he said his family.

It always goes back to his family. 

The rest of the night went okay, we have been doing better since, but we have MC tomorrow. 

Bad idea to suggest that we send a message to John about not pursuing the friendship again? I can't help but feel like if we don't, they'll still take it as if they have a chance to weasel into our lives and keep texting.

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## 3Xnocharm

PieOhMy said:


> *Bad idea to suggest that we send a message to John about not pursuing the friendship again?* I can't help but feel like if we don't, they'll still take it as if they have a chance to weasel into our lives and keep texting.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


No, bad idea to remain married to this man. He is still showing you the same disrespect that he always has, and you keep showing HIM by your actions that you are ok with that. You can talk til you're blue in the face, but your actions don't back up your words.


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## PieOhMy

This is the only thing. It took me almost 2 years to get over what happened in the past. I can't help but feel I owe him the same. I was very controlling and manipulative once upon a time, because I was scared. I know now that that is not the way to handle things. But I can't help but feel I made him into the monster he is now. And I at least owe him the time to get over it. I've personally decided that on my 28th birthday, that month is the month I will have to learn to walk away. Not because I say so but I anticipate that will be a time where I'm more focused and seeing where my future has to lead. It's something my IC and I have already discussed. 

I'm sure many of you will not agree with this. But we all have our flaws. I'm giving my husband this time to repair his side of the marriage. It takes time. 



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## Starstarfish

If you'll stick out the next two years no matter what because you feel you owe him, what is going to be the force for change?


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## PieOhMy

It's not 2 years from now. It's 2 years from a year and a half ago. When I started trying to get him to go to MC. When I realized that he needs to change his ways. He asked me to give him time to change. It's actually 6 months from now...and it's a boundary I gave myself. A limit I gave myself. I will enforce it. 

I also really want to see if I can talk to him about IC. For himself. He said he's thought about trying it before but that's it. 

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## turnera

PieOhMy said:


> he just started crying hysterically. I asked him what was upsetting him. He said different things. He said us at first and then he said his family.
> 
> It always goes back to his family.


Which is what we've been telling you. Right? We are all products of our families. It is SO HARD to walk away from your programming. Be gentle with him, now that he's acknowledging it all.


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## PieOhMy

I still wish he'd go into IC of his own.

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## turnera

Why should he? You're still there.


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## AliceA

PieOhMy said:


> Bad idea to suggest that we send a message to John about not pursuing the friendship again? I can't help but feel like if we don't, they'll still take it as if they have a chance to weasel into our lives and keep texting.


Honestly, while I understand why you feel the need to do this, it would greatly piss me off if my spouse tried to push me around like you keep doing with him. If he wants to contact them, let him, then kick him out. That's the boundary. You aren't his mother and he's not a 5-year-old boy.


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## PieOhMy

What are you talking about? I told him to do what ever he wants, if he wants to talk to them, go ahead. And then he says well what are you going to do. And I told him he knows how I feel about it. And then he says well I'm not going to do it if that's how you're going to respond. And I tell him to do what he wants to do cause I don't want to be what's holding you back, is your decision. 

But I did tell him to figure out what he wants because I'm tired of going for this roller coaster ride whenever something happens with his family or friends. 

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## AliceA

PieOhMy said:


> John, Amy's husband, texted him the other day saying, "Hi just wanted to say hi, hope all is well." He told me about it up front. And stated he chose not to respond. I suggested that he message back stating that he's decided not to pursue a friendship with them and wish them the best. He got defensive thinking I was trying to control the situation again.





PieOhMy said:


> What are you talking about? I told him to do what ever he wants, if he wants to talk to them, go ahead. And then he says well what are you going to do. And I told him he knows how I feel about it. And then he says well I'm not going to do it if that's how you're going to respond. And I tell him to do what he wants to do cause I don't want to be what's holding you back, is your decision.
> 
> But I did tell him to figure out what he wants because I'm tired of going for this roller coaster ride whenever something happens with his family or friends.


Uh huh.


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## PieOhMy

I'm paraphrasing, trying to get the idea of the conversation to you. The conversation went more like "So John texted me today", "Oh. What'd he say?" "Just hey hope all is well" "Oh, ok. Did you text him back?" "No." "Ok. Well it might not be a bad idea to let him know where you stand on the friendship, didn't you leave him with the impression that you're going to talk to him again?" "Yeah, but I don't want to." "Okay." "But you want me to, right?" "I do and don't. I do because itd be nice to have the closure and them leaving us alone, and I don't because I don't really want to start any conversation with them and you seem uncomfortable with it." "Why do you have to make this about you? It's always about you." "Okay." "You always have to share your opinion." "Okay." This is where the argument started. I started okaying him cause I just didn't want to get into it. I didn't think it was a bad idea.

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## PieOhMy

Eventually the argument got into more about his friends and him saying he felt like we never gave them a chance. I told them I gave them two chances and I should have only given them one. I'm done with them. I told him if he wants to be friends with them, go for it, but leave me the f*ck alone cause I don't want to be around for it. Figure it out. Blah blah. Etc.

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## 3Xnocharm

PieOhMy said:


> I'm paraphrasing, trying to get the idea of the conversation to you. The conversation went more like "So John texted me today", "Oh. What'd he say?" "Just hey hope all is well" "Oh, ok. Did you text him back?" "No." "Ok. Well it might not be a bad idea to let him know where you stand on the friendship, didn't you leave him with the impression that you're going to talk to him again?" "Yeah, but I don't want to." "Okay." "But you want me to, right?" "I do and don't. I do because itd be nice to have the closure and them leaving us alone, and I don't because I don't really want to start any conversation with them and you seem uncomfortable with it." "Why do you have to make this about you? It's always about you." "Okay." "You always have to share your opinion." "Okay." This is where the argument started. I started okaying him cause I just didn't want to get into it. I didn't think it was a bad idea.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


If your husband was truly serious about respecting your boundary, he would have John blocked and would not have to be bothered with the messages. He is never going to be ok with this and you will spend your entire marriage with this looming over your head.


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## Blossom Leigh

When he is 100% committed and isn't straddling the fence somewhere in his heart, you will be able to tell in his behavior without question.


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## PieOhMy

Btw. I logged back on for some more opinions. Again, I wanted to thank everybody for helping through what I went through then. I read some of the discussion again...I can't believe I put up with what I did...But I'm happy I did in some ways and I'm happy I stood my ground. Fun fact for anyone interested in an update:

Hubby never brought them up again. I asked him a few times if he was over them...He said yes. He still denies having any feelings for Amy. Whatever. Anyways...My mom must have been looking out for me... cause exactly a year later the whole thing with Amy and John started...I got a random text from Amy.

Amy: (Multimedia message, an invitation to her son's 1st birthday party. No words, just the image of the invitation.)

Me: Amy, I really have no interest in pursuing a friendship with you or any of your family. My husband speaks for himself, so perhaps you should contact him with your invite. I wish you the best of luck with Liam and your future. But please leave me alone now. Good luck.

Amy: Wow! OK  
Amy: Too bad your husband won't have a relationship with us nor his family because you control the living hell out of him 24/7  

I never responded. And she never contacted hubby. I showed hubby the conversation later. I told him he needs to officially end this friendship for good and tell her that, I don't feel like getting anymore messages from her for him. He originally said he didn't want to have any communications with them and didn't think it was necessary. I said fine, but in another year when she's missing you not being at her son's 2nd birthday party, and you still don't want to do something about it, the marriage is over. I told him I never insulted Amy in all communicationsI ever had with her, and she just insulted your wife, once again. Thanks. I walked away.

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## PieOhMy

So dear hubby comes over to me after a few minutes and gives me his phone and a kiss on the forehead and says he's sorry. 

On his phone screen, he sent Amy a text.

Hubby: My wife told me what you texted her. I do not appreciate you saying that to her. As for my family, I am the only one that talks to them and helps them. I'm guessing you spoke to my brother and that's what he's filled your head with. We have obviously been going our own separate paths these past 5 years, and since I see you can't respect my marriage and my wife, we should continue to do so. 

Amy: Why even bother texting me then first of all i ter her inviting both of you to Liams birthday party she had a snotty response so i had a snotty response right back
Amy: I also believe you were the one complaining about how controlling and terrible she was when you came to my in laws without telling your perfect wife

He never responded. She never said anything else. He finally blocked all their numbers. And that was it.

So, I say thanks mom for giving me that gut feeling about that b*tch from the beginning and for graciously sending her my way. And I say thank you Amy, for continuing to be the c*nt that you are and showing your true colors to me AND my husband once again. It was a great reminder of why the friendship would never work. 

And thank you dear hubby, for finally seeing what it is and protecting our marriage. For taking my concerns seriously. I knew you had it in you. 

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## farsidejunky

Welcome back. Beyond that situation, how are things?


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## PieOhMy

They're going pretty good. We have our arguments, but nothing too serious and we've learned to cut the arguments down to like 10 mins and to let stupid things go. 

Only recurring issue he/we have now is his parents always asking for money, even though he sends them a monthly amount. It does not effect us right now because he makes a good amount of money but once we start the mortgage payments...I'm not sure what he plans on doing. They are factored into our budget but nothing extra. I guess time will tell. I've learned that despite all my suggestions in this department, he is stubborn and likes to learn the hard way. If it does not impact us in any way, so be it. But he struggles.

I came back on here asking for advice about the situation. 

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## PieOhMy

Me personally, it feels like I'm going to be in school forever. When I was working full time I could barely pull off classes and of course all my prerequisites are science courses. So I decided to step down to Per Diem. This Fall I'll be taking 15 credits. 12 credits being science courses. 

I should be done with prerequisites next summer/fall and then can apply to nursing programs. Just feels like it takes forever. Wish I could make it go faster...was going to do a science course during the summer but was really difficult to keep up so I withdrew. Not doing that again lol. 

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## PieOhMy

Thankful that hubby is willing to pay for my schooling and let me just focus on that. Because I don't want to be 35 and still doing school. I'd really be in school forever if I worked full time and school part time. And it's hard going back to school. When I was younger, it was easier because I had no other responsibilities except me, myself and I. Now I take care of a home, I take care of our finances, my dad's finances, help my dad with whatever he needs. I should get paid for the amount of errands I run lol jk. Thankfully I have no kids, which is why I want it to get done with school asap.

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