# WS Long Term Memory Of Your Affair



## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

My question when a BH finds out about an affair that happened 10, 30, 30 years ago and wants details.

How much do you really remember?

If you tried to recall how much could you bring back?

Saying to a BH I don't remember sounds the same as I refuse to tell you.

So how does a BH know you don't remember or you are lying?


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## confusedFather (Jul 15, 2012)

I really hope this generate some responses from WS's. These are exactly some of the questions I'm struggling with.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Well, I'm not a wayward, but it would seem to me that if the WS were carrying around this much guilt and shame after so much time has passed, I think it's highly unlikely that they would forget the reason (and more importantly, the details) that caused that guilt and shame.

The devil is always in the details.

JMO


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## confusedFather (Jul 15, 2012)

3putt said:


> Well, I'm not a wayward, but it would seem to me that if the WS were carrying around this much guilt and shame after so much time has passed, I think it's highly unlikely that they would forget the reason (and more importantly, the details) that caused that guilt and shame.
> 
> The devil is always in the details.
> 
> JMO


I thought the same thing until my WW explained that she felt so bad about it that she buried the memories; kind of like a psychological defense mechanism. She literally went a decade without even thinking about her affairs (ONS x2). I just don't know if this is true or not.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

confusedFather said:


> I just don't know if this is true or not.


Who knows, but if I HAD to make a bet on one or the other, I wouldn't have to think twice on which one to bet.

Wouldn't even matter to me though. At that point (this is just me now) she would be out the door as the long term secret of it would probably trump the adultery.

But that's just me, but since I haven't been there, I honestly can't say how I would react.

Lulz, truth of the matter is NONE of us truly _know_ what we would do until we have to actually live it.

I think I may have gotten off the beaten path a little here.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Okay..... I'm going to be brave and answer this.... from my own perspective, because that's the only one I have to give. On my husband's thread, as a former WS, I don't avoid the tough questions. I answer them with extreme honesty. But, there is a fairly regular group of posters on that thread and we have an unspoken but understood agreement that while dishonorable behavior is never condoned... no one is condemned, either. Whether you are a BS who isn't handling your "situation" the way that most of the *TAM*_ers_ recommend or a WS who is still very much "in the fog," you are welcome to post on the thread without fear of being textually/verbally assaulted. With that having been said, TAM has been the single most beneficial resource for B1 and me during our reconciliation, so if I can possibly help a BS, in any way, by sharing my own story, then I would be happy to do so.

So, back to the original question. After 10, 20, 30 years, how much detail would a WS remember? I can't go back that far. My infidelity ended less than 7 months ago. It lasted for 15 months. There are many details that I remember with 100% accuracy. I remember what day of the week that we usually met for lunch. I remember what night of the week I would usually spend the evening with him (when I was supposed to be out with a girlfriend of mine,) I remember what restaurant we used to have lunch at most of the time. Of course those things are easy to remember and my affair wasn't that long ago.

Now, the truth is, what haunts most BS's, I think, if they are anything like my husband, is not what day of the week their spouse met their AP or where they ate lunch or dinner. The truth is, for most BS's, especially the men, what haunts them is the details of the sex. Right? This is the part that you are likely having the most difficulty coming to terms with, especially if you are attempting to have a successful reconciliation with your WS, and you are having the most difficulty getting answers that truly "answer" your questions.... or the answers seem incomplete to you. No, a WS, especially one who is truly remorseful and repentant will NOT enjoy having these conversations. The answers hurt their BS and, again, if the WS is remorseful, it hurts the WS to answer the questions knowing that they are hurting their BS. If your WS appears to enjoy answering these questions, then you might reconsider whether or not you should be reconciling with them. My husband, B1, was the type of betrayed spouse who wanted to know every single detail. Our MC was very much against this. But, I could clearly see that B1's imagination was feeding him horrible mind movies that only seemed to calm, somewhat, when what he was imagining was replaced with the actual facts. The facts haunted him, too, and they still do. But, there are no more mysteries. By telling him everything that he asked me to tell him, he spent less time trying to fill in the empty gaps and more time processing the facts. In the long run, it seemed to make our reconciliation more genuine and his (and my) healing more complete. But, after a while, when he knew every single detail that I could give him about a specific situation, I had to tell him that every time he asked me to repeat the details that I had already given him, time and time again, without ever changing my story, that I was having to relive those events over in my own mind. I want to forget them. I don't want to think about my former AP, anymore. It's getting better and B1 asks me fewer and fewer questions. I, honestly, can't think of anything that he doesn't know, at this point. The truth is, now, not even 7 months later, there are many details that I COULD NOT tell you with absolute certainty of accuracy. I made a conscious decision early on NOT to dwell on the affair. If B1 and I were going to attempt to reconcile, then I had to get out of the fog and get the AP out of my head. B1 and I had decided that we were going to try to reconcile our marriage. I don't think that either of us had any real belief that that was even a remote possibility. But, because of finances and our children, we were going to be "stuck" together for the foreseeable future, at least another year, and we both chose to make the best of the situation. After 28 years of marriage we felt that we owed ourselves, one another and our children that much. We knew that whether we ended up together or apart that we had to heal and reconcile.... because reconciliation happens inside of the individual before it can ever begin to happen in the potential "new" marriage. We both knew that we had each contributed to the lousy state of our marriage prior to my affair and we both knew that we were going to have to go way back and dig deep if we were going to have any real chance for a successful reconciliation.

If I can truly begin to "forget" details after 7 months.... because I have consciously chosen to release them from my mind, I am CERTAIN that after 10 years, 20 years, or 30 years that very few of the actual details can be remembered with very much accuracy. I have often read on TAM where BS's have insisted that they made their WS give them every single detail of affairs that occurred 20 years ago. I told B1 that I thought that the WS was probably making the "facts" up just to satisfy the BS's need for details. I know that I won't remember everything with accuracy..... I don't want to. I have thrown away every tangible memento. I try to do the same thing with "mental" mementos, as well. 

About 6 weeks after D-Day, my husband, B1, and I spent a weekend at a hotel downtown enjoying some serious hysterical bonding..... lots and lots of hysterical bonding.... all weekend long. A few days ago, he asked me how many times we had made love that weekend and how many orgasms I had had. I looked at him, very confused, and said "I have no idea!" He smiled and said, "Good answer!" He had caught me completely off guard with his question and it was my response that made him realize that when I say that "I don't remember every single detail," I really do mean it.

I hope this helps to answer the OP's original question. If you all will not be intentionally unkind, I will gladly do my best to answer any other questions that you might have. I used to take some pretty serious "lashings" from some of the members on TAM. I won't do that anymore. I need all of my energy, strength and positivity, to be the best wife and mother that I can possibly be. Letting strangers tear me down isn't going to do my family any good.... and they are only ones that I "owe" anything to. 

Take Care,
~EI


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

My EA wasn't a long time ago by this threads definition, I'm a little over 2 years post DDay. Based on my memory of mine I would tell you I have about the same level of recall as I do with everything else. So if your spouse is one who recalls every detail they likely do of their affair to. If they tend to forget details they probably forgot them about their affair as well. Participating in an affair does not automatically sear memory of the details into your memory. Ultimately a person's mind works the way it does. 

Unfortunately you will never truly know, but you can apply a little reason. If they are really remorseful they can work on it, talk about it with you, and recall at least some details. If they seem to have had a lobotomy about the whole thing they're lying.


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## Rags (Aug 2, 2010)

I wasn't a spouse at the time, so I'm not sure if this counts, but I met up with an ex-gf, and spent a night with her (when I'd just started going out with someone new.) It didn't go 'all the way' - but it went much further than it should have - habit...

Anyway, that was 20 years ago. The new gf (who became, and still is, my wife) found out because I told her - I didn't have to and she would never have found out otherwise, but I didn't want to be that sort of person. She forgave me, married me, and (to my knowledge) have both been faithful ever since.

How much can I remember about, bearing in mind it was close to 20 years ago?

Little.

A few images, snippits. A touch. Nothing more.

Yet still, I've avoided school reunions because I might meet her if I went, and that would make my wife uncomfortable.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Well, here is the thing. This doesn't relate to the exact parameters of the question, but maybe provides some insight.

If you asked me to give a litany of crap my wife laid on me during our fights, the things that cut me to the quick, I can lay out three or four significant things from up to 15 years ago with remarkable clarity.

If you asked me to lay out the horrible things I said to HER...doh! I can barely remember a one...because it didn't have that huge an emotional impact ON ME.

So if a WS suddenly refocuses all their efforts TO THE MARRIAGE, the emotional import of their affair withers.

So pop quiz: I assume most of you are married. Mentally recall a blow by blow account of 6 of your sexual encounters with your spouse of 5+ years ago. Hazy on the details? Can't remember when you sucked and when you blew? What you kissed and how you thrust? Do you even remember the lingerie she wore/what his pajamas looked like back then? How about the sheets? Recall that? What time was it?

What?!? Are you saying that having sex with your wife/husband wasn't emotionally important to you? That you DON'T REMEMBER?

Hmm...

If you asked me to describe the FIRST time I had sex with my wife, I could give you a good bit of details on WHERE it happened, but mostly recall a bunch of fumblings in the dark without crystal clarity...and that's about as signficant an encounter as you are likely to get.

What was your first time with your spouse like? Details! If you don't have them, then expecting recorder like quality from the WS isn't particularly fair.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

I recall a fair amount of detail of our 1st time. It was Xmas eve 26 year ago. She was wearing a navy blue dress, white lace panties and matching bra. I was still living at home and the family was out for dinner. We were in my room. Uneven remember the smell of her perfume.

I won't describe it further. But moments like that stick with you if you ruminate on them. I can see the details fading over time if you want to put it out of your mind. 

Still WS will diminish and minimize what they remember. On Dday WW claimed I was icky and she didn't like it. It took me 6 months to get her to be more honest about the fact she must have enjoyed something about it. She had multiple cybersex conversations with multiple men. If it was "icky" as she claimed it would have stopped at 1. 

So, maybe I would accept "it was icky" if it was a ONS one time. Outside of that any claim of "I didn't even like it" is utter bullcrap.

Not wanting to tell the details is natural. The WS is wrong. Divulging the details reminds them of how wrong, and forces them to admit they were self serving sh1ts.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Human motivation isn't binary. They can want to minimize their guilt AND want to protect the spouse AND might honestly not remember all the details the sordid desires of the BS wants.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Acoa said:


> I recall a fair amount of detail of our 1st time. It was Xmas eve 26 year ago. She was wearing a navy blue dress, white lace panties and matching bra. I was still living at home and the family was out for dinner. We were in my room. Uneven remember the smell of her perfume.
> 
> I won't describe it further. But moments like that stick with you if you ruminate on them. I can see the details fading over time if you want to put it out of your mind.
> 
> ...


Okay. That is ONE. Five to go. How many kissses did you give? How much oral? Both ways? Positions? See, it's not easy to remember EVERYTHING.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

EI said:


> Okay..... I'm going to be brave and answer this.... from my own perspective, because that's the only one I have to give. On my husband's thread, as a former WS, I don't avoid the tough questions. I answer them with extreme honesty. I hope this helps to answer the OP's original question. If you all will not be intentionally unkind, I will gladly do my best to answer any other questions that you might have. I used to take some pretty serious "lashings" from some of the members on TAM. I won't do that anymore. I need all of my energy, strength and positivity, to be the best wife and mother that I can possibly be. Letting strangers tear me down isn't going to do my family any good.... and they are only ones that I "owe" anything to.
> 
> Take Care,
> ~EI



Thank you for your effort. I don't want to rehash this so I will be brief.

My WW had told me nothing happened.

Then about every 4 years something always happened to cause me to ask about what happened. Trickle truth. Emphasis on trickle.

So it took about 24 years for her to say sex only once. Then volunteered that is wasn't that good. I think see responded un prompted because I was just trying to believe what I had heard.

I saw her unprompted evaluation as damage control.

Asking took time because I wanted to proceed with caution. Can't unhear the answers. Along with each answer I heard I could not respond quickly with another question.

The last time I tried to ask more questions was about 6 years ago. I was told I'm not going to talk about it, I don't remember, you bring it up I'm out of here.

To this day I still want answers.
I still want every detail.

My wife knows this but ignores it.
I ignore part of the day.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Well, the traditional TAM message would be that she isn't worth having

But you seem to find some value in your marriage. I'm going to post a link to this to Edubs thread. 

I think you should PM him some of your experiences theroad, so he can make an informed choice about his marriage.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

theroad said:


> Thank you for your effort. I don't want to rehash this so I will be brief.


You're welcome and I do hope that it might help you in some way.



theroad said:


> My WW had told me nothing happened.


I completely understand that..... *for about 5 minutes*.... after that, it makes no sense to me. If the WS wants out of the marriage, then tell your BS the truth..... At that point the BS's shock and hurt will be so raw and intense that they will likely be glad to show you the door. If the WS suddenly _sees the light_ and wants to reconcile, then why would they NOT want to give their BS whatever information they need in order to begin the long process of healing and, potentially, reconciling. 



theroad said:


> Then about every 4 years something always happened to cause me to ask about what happened. Trickle truth. Emphasis on trickle.
> 
> So it took about 24 years for her to say sex only once. Then volunteered that is wasn't that good. I think see responded un prompted because I was just trying to believe what I had heard.
> 
> ...


Well, that explains why you are still so angry and bitter. Infidelity, in itself, is a deathblow to marriage.... no matter what problems may have already existed in the marriage prior to the affair. The infidelity, all by itself, changes the marriage, (if there is to be any hope of reconciliation) the BS and WS, forever. 

I cannot fathom remaining in a marriage..... even as the WS, knowing that my BS was still hurting and needing answers that only I could give him and then refusing to do so. From a selfish standpoint..... I don't want to be in a miserable marriage, anymore,..... we had already done that for years. If my spouse is miserable.... then, how can I possibly ever be happy? I need for him to heal and to be happy. My own happiness, and survival _in this marriage_, becomes contingent upon my spouse being able to fully heal, recover and be happy, again. If I hope for him to stay in this marriage, it is my obligation, need and desire to give him honesty, transparency, answers, love, and whatever else he needs to recover. I have been unbelievably blessed with a husband who loves me and who chose to dive in.... head first.... on D-Day and begin to work with me to unravel every single detail of our lives that lead us to the place we found ourselves in on D-Day. My BS knew that our marriage had been in trouble long before my affair ever began. He knew that I had reached out to him, repeatedly, for several years and asked him to work with me to fix what was broken in our marriage and in ourselves. He wasn't able to, at that time, depression and low Testosterone had left him incapable of finding the will to fight for our marriage. He would start therapy, then stop, start taking Testosterone injections, then stop.... anti-depressants may have helped him to function at work, but did little to inspire the motivation that he needed to work with me to work on "us." 

Something clicked inside of him on D-Day..... something powerful. He made a choice, a choice to begin to fight for himself, for me and, ultimately, for us. At that point, I was completely checked out of our marriage. I had been for well over a year. The sad truth is..... he really hadn't even noticed. I think he was relieved that I was sleeping on the couch and no longer "nagging" him about "working on our marriage." I think he thought that I had finally "settled in" and accepted our miserable existence the way that he had. I hadn't. I had found my escape, elsewhere. Whatever motivation, drive, desire he had lacked for so many years..... kicked in..... in an instant. HE began the process of choosing me and our marriage. He hadn't been able to express his love for me when I had been a happy, loving and attentive wife. I had finally became so depressed, bitter, angry and defeated that I had lost all hope of ever being happy in this marriage, again. He fought for us..... He made me fall madly and passionately in love with him.... not like ever before..... more than I ever imagined. *Now, it is my job to do anything and everything that I can to fight for him, for us and for healing and reconciliation. * We have a real marriage now. After 28 years of marriage and 31 years together..... I love him more than I ever thought possible.



theroad said:


> My wife knows this but ignores it.
> I ignore part of the day.


I am so sorry. After all of these years, why do you choose to stay? Why does she? I believe that if she loved you then she would want nothing more than to help you through this. No, it isn't "fun" as a WS, reliving all of those details for your BS. It's painful, painful for the BS to hear, painful for the WS to admit, and when the WS comes "out of the fog" it is degrading and humiliating to admit those things to your spouse. Honestly, it's degrading and humiliating to admit them to yourself. I guess that's why I wanted to go ahead and give my BS whatever information he needed, immediately, so that the process of healing could begin. It's like an infection. Without proper treatment it will continue to fester.... never really completely healing and the potential for the infection to come back stronger than ever is always there. With aggressive and immediate treatment that infection can be cured. It won't erase the painful memories and there may be scars that remain. But, the infection can be healed and what remains can be stronger than ever before. I really do believe this. My husband, Betrayed1 aka B1, the OP on the Reconciliation thread, and I are happier than we have been in many years.... And, our marriage is stronger and has more potential for postive growth that it ever had before. NOT because of my affair, but in spite of it..... it is BECAUSE of the way that we have handled the aftermath. But, it takes two partners willing to give 100% and then some.

I wish you the best.

Take care,
~EI


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

For what it is worth, 

the words *'I don't remember'* and '*I dont know*' were the two most used answers by my WH directly after DD and I guess by many WS.

Having said that, he soon realised the only way to have any chance at saving the marriage was to answer me truthfully and to the best of his ability.....hard as it was. 

Oh and It did take the threat of a poly to make him remember!


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

15 years later, I still know more than enough details to make you puke. And 1/2 of the time I was dead drunk or high or drunk and high at the same time.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

gemjo said:


> For what it is worth,
> 
> the words *'I don't remember'* and '*I dont know*' were the two most used answers by my WH directly after DD and I guess by many WS.
> 
> ...


I completely understand that. I have offered my husband a polygraph if he thinks it will help him. But, the truth is, I have been so forthcoming in giving him the information that he asks for that he doesn't feel the need for me to take one. I posted on TAM within about 2 1/2 weeks of D-Day. I have learned a lot and it has been very beneficial in our reconciliation. I love my husband. If he needs that from me in a year or 5 or 10.... my offer will always stand. If you love someone, you would be willing to give them whatever they need in order to heal and move forward, barring physical or extreme verbal abuse. Because that would indicate, to me, that he didn't love me and that HIS motives were not in the right place. As long and he and I are genuinely working towards the same goal.... healing, recovering and successfully reconciling our marriage into a loving, happy union, then it is my desire to help him however he needs me to.

You should never have to beg, demand or threaten your spouse, whether they were the BS or WS, to participate in meeting the most basic needs in a relationship..... to care about the healing, happiness and well-being of one another.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

EI 

Again let me tell you and TAM that yours, Almostrecovered's case are really rare. Not to forget Beowulf's.

The trouble is my wife has exceptionally good memory, but for her EA. 

The dynamics between you and B1 is what ultimately mattered in the path to recovery.

Good lucks.


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

EI said:


> I completely understand that. I have offered my husband a polygraph if he thinks it will help him. But, the truth is, I have been so forthcoming in giving him the information that he asks for that he doesn't feel the need for me to take one. I posted on TAM within about 2 1/2 weeks of D-Day. I have learned a lot and it has been very beneficial in our reconciliation. I love my husband. If he needs that from me in a year or 5 or 10.... my offer will always stand. If you love someone, you would be willing to give them whatever they need in order to heal and move forward, barring physical or extreme verbal abuse. Because that would indicate, to me, that he didn't love me and that HIS motives were not in the right place. As long and he and I are genuinely working towards the same goal.... healing, recovering and successfully reconciling our marriage into a loving, happy union, then it is my desire to help him however he needs me to.
> 
> You should never have to beg, demand or threaten your spouse, whether they were the BS or WS, to participate in meeting the most basic needs in a relationship..... to care about the healing, happiness and well-being of one another.


My H also posts on TAM (megmg) it has helped both of us so much.

He has stopped saying 'i don't know' and 'i don't remember' he realises now that lies and omissions hurt more than the truth, and like your H, I need to know everything, or my imagination fills in the gaps...and that is often much worse than the reality!

The whole truth and answers to my every question were the only way to start to rebuild the marriage......and like your H, I also asked the same things over and over....my H has been very patient, as he should be.....

Now I feel I have had the full truth, and i think it almost caused a melt down...I have recently had a couple of weeks of despair, but feel we are back on track.....

He continues to heavy lift, and H transparency will be ongoing, forever I imagine......but in many ways we have fallen in love with each other all over again. Reading your post has helped me realise that.

The worst thing we can do in a marriage is take one another for granted. 

Thank you for your insightful posts


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## confusedFather (Jul 15, 2012)

EI and Sigma - Thank you for your honest posts. I think I'm finally starting to realize it's not what she did 20+ years ago that matters. It's who she is today and who she's been for many years now: my best friend and confidant, my shoulder to cry on, my helper, my lover, the best mother my sons could ask for, and the person God used to show me He lives.


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

Thank you EI for all your posts, they have helped me greatly especially your defininition of "reconciliation" months ago. We must be near to the same age; I discovered my husbands 6 year affair in the 32nd year of our marriage. Our preaffair marriage was similiar to yours but with the roles reversed. A big part of my anguish 1.5 years from Dday is that when he refused to answer questions about affair, he claims he doesn't remember alot of the details too. I think in his case some of that might be true but sometimes I feel he has SELECTIVE memory! At one point in our conversations, he pointed out how I had made him feel so betrayed by my disparaging comments on a life goal he accomplished forgetting that when I made the comments, he had been in his affair for almost a year! 

Anyway, I went ahead and read 5 years of his emails to OW..BAD MOVE...they have now become the source of alot of my pain due to comparing myself to her, knowing what he gave her that he refused me, loss of confidence, asking why he had the energy physically, emotionally for her but not for me at this point...on and on. I am at a point where I understand how I alienated him and how he could have begun an affair...he claims he truly felt I did not love him, he was invisible, didn't matter, etc...but I also feel that he has not owned up to how HE alienated and hurt me...the downward spiral...I need to HEAR it to move on. A huge problem for me is how and why he continued the affair for 6 years...the double life, all the times we shared as a couple, as a family are ruined for me now. I can't look at a single photo from those years without experiencing pain. The humiliation I feel because of my own stupidity, trust and denial are intense: how could I not have known(well, I suspected and asked numerous times but was lied to everytime)? I have reread your advice numerous times and it has helped me understand alot about my husband's situation and has inspired me to try to start again...but to date, he is hesitant to "re-commit" to me, stating he doesn't feel ready, doesn't think it necessary, why would I ever want that considering how he broke the first vows...etc. This is a big issue for me and one we are going back to counseling for after the holidays. So why would a person like me stay with a man like this? Truly, I have always loved him tho our old marriage was dysfunctional, we have a huge amount of history together, knowing each other from childhood, mutual friends and so on. I agreed to keep the affair a secret for the sake of our children, I could not bear for them to lose respect and love for their father if they knew, especially if we were able to survive the affair, and probably because of the humiliation I would feel if friends, family, community knew...I have always been hopeful that the pain would pass and I could move on and besides we are in our early 60's...what realistic chance do I have to find love, companionship, sex with another man...having had to overcome the issues I would have with trust and self worth that I would carry into a new relationship? We have made great strides in improving our marriage, and have experienced alot of joy and connection from what we learned but we have so far to go. For my husband, I feel he needs to reconnect with himself and own up to his contribution to the breakdown of the marriage, why he could have led such a deceitful life for so long and why he is hesitant to recommit and for me, I know I have to work on paying less attention to the pain and more on the happiness we can share in our future.


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## confusedFather (Jul 15, 2012)

allwillbewell said:


> I can't look at a single photo from those years without experiencing pain.


I know what you mean. I look at those pictures and the smile look so fake to me now.


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## Skrya (Dec 25, 2012)

This is exactly where we have been stuck. Can't remember lies by omission admittance when proof is in hand only. I am so tierd


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## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

Hi 

I didn't get much out of WH/WS full stop though I already read and kept his incriminating emails.

But I got far more info from his AP, who was actually a very honest, sympathetic and frank person. I got to know her over time though I stopped contacting her since. Why "sympathetic"? Well, we talked a lot over the phone and she realized that my H wasn't someone whom she had thought he was. His AP is also a deceived party after all.

WH may tell you anything (if you had robbed a bank, would you tell you just robbed the bank to a policeman?) and the story could well be so one-sided. Go to AF for a bigger picture.


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## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

allwillbewell said:


> A huge problem for me is how and why he continued the affair for 6 years...the double life, all the times we shared as a couple, as a family are ruined for me now. I can't look at a single photo from those years without experiencing pain. The humiliation I feel because of my own stupidity, trust and denial are intense: how could I not have known(well, I suspected and asked numerous times but was lied to everytime)? I have reread your advice numerous times and it has helped me understand alot about my husband's situation and has inspired me to try to start again...
> 
> but t to date, he is hesitant to "re-commit" to me, stating he doesn't feel ready, doesn't think it necessary, why would I ever want that considering how he broke the first vows...etc.
> 
> ...


Hi allwillbewell

Your post is always helpful to me.

First of all, let me say that today's 60s must be 45-50 nowadays. You can still look sparkly even at the age of 70s! I'm sure older and mature women are much in demand. 

Your concern re. "he's hesitant to recommit" must be valid. It seems this matter is the recurring theme or a key point in your R? I would be curious to know if your S is truly "ashamed of" his A or not. Or I am wondering if your WS is just saying these things to you/his BW in order to maintain domestic peace and keep you as a "friend" who would be willing to continue to hide his secrets away from his children and families? 

It is to me that WSs seem to think that his marriage is one (which he is committed enough to stay) and his affair (non-commitment fun) is another. In a way, WSs who have a tendency for wandering eyes ogling at other women still CAN/will be able to commit to his marriage. At the same time, he might be too weak to refuse something on the side if the opportunity presents itself in front of him?

I always had a funny feeling that whenever my WS felt any pressure from our marriage (mainly as a result of his lack of relationship skills/lack of empathy in our marriage), he had "used" OW to make him feel better again. She was his delicious real porn/poison (a human fast food joint "quick fix" ) he didn't need to worry about her as soon as he "came"; his self-esteem was boosted by this animalistic liaison to satisfy himself whenever he had felt the need. He had enjoyed this non-strings attached sex and kept going back over a number of years. It was really funny when I trashed his pleasure zone into smithereens on DDay and then on.

His OW was extremely generous to him/only too naive about him and I even believe she sincerely cared for him. She had admitted that she tends to fall for a "Bad Boy". But, I digress.

Now we do know our H was playing away all that time. We know he has a long standing history of PA/EA. R after a long-term A which went on so long in marriage is a bit like living in a roof-floor-wall less house after a hurricane destroyed the basic foundation of the house. Can you live with this? It is bound to be an uphill struggle. Yes, it may well be much easier to move to a smaller house to regroup first. Certainly, there's no harm in keeping options open. Leave when you feel you are able to (after children are grown up for example).


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

Yes, re-establishing trust after years of deceit, don't know if it can ever fully happen, don't know if I would want to be that trusting again. Yes, AP could answer alot of questions, but my pride and what little self esteem I have left doesn't allow me to approach her. She has shown herself to be extremely toxic, and pathetic, circling our marriage like a shark for over 18 months, continually trying to intice H back. According to the emails, they both dissed me as a prude, frigid and so on. I cannot believe she would ever pass up the opportunity to humiliate me and undermine my confidence with the nasty truths or concocted lies. And besides, the truth needs to come from him, he needs to own up, he needs to understand his motives, he needs to see how he contributed to the dysfunction of the marriage, he needs to admit that no matter how *****y he thinks I was, it never justified an A...MC yes, seperation yes, even divorce yes! But to betray my trust? Never.

You make some incredibly insightful comments about the psychological dynamics of an A that I have never heard before: and that I would like to approach my H on: eg. using his AP as a release when he felt stress at home. She actually came to the same conclusion in her "rip-him-a-new-***hole" email.


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

EI, as usual some really good insights, encouraging and calming. In my case, since husband won't initiate conversations, what WS would? and is very unwilling, evasive, to the point of anger and blame shifting when pressured, I am haunted by the possibility that he still hold his AP in a special place in his heart and always will. He has said some of the very things you pointed out but how do I know if he is still simply being deceitful in order to keep status quo? Oh he is remorseful, understands how deeply he destroyed me, but cannot, will not freely dis himself or behavior. However, he is still here after 18 months, he chose me, his gestures indicate a new attitude and appreciation for me but still something is missing for me in his dedication to rugsweeping and blameshifting...this is a man who is in serious need of IC!


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

allwillbewell said:


> EI, as usual some really good insights, encouraging and calming. In my case, since husband won't initiate conversations, what WS would? and is very unwilling, evasive, to the point of anger and blame shifting when pressured, I am haunted by the possibility that he still hold his AP in a special place in his heart and always will. He has said some of the very things you pointed out but how do I know if he is still simply being deceitful in order to keep status quo? Oh he is remorseful, understands how deeply he destroyed me, but cannot, will not freely dis himself or behavior. However, he is still here after 18 months, he chose me, his gestures indicate a new attitude and appreciation for me but still something is missing for me in his dedication to rugsweeping and blameshifting...this is a man who is in serious need of IC!


I wish that I could tell you something that could ease all of your concerns and fears. But, having been the WS does not, necessarily, give me insight into the minds of every other WS. It's possible that your husband's unwillingness to discuss his affair is simply a typical male response..... I find that most men really don't ever want to "discuss" things.... particularly if they are the object of your disdain. But, after 18 months if he is still being evasive, angry and blame shifting every time you press for answers (which you have every right to do) then it's no wonder that you have concerns about what his real motives and intentions are. 

You say that he is remorseful and that he understands how deeply he hurt you. You say that his gestures indicate a new attitude and appreciation for you. But true remorse is not about words and gestures. It's about actions. I think that in a happy and ultimately successful reconciliation that a WS must give their BS what the BS spouse wants and needs to heal.... not simply what the WS wants and feels comfortable giving. If you feel like something is missing then something *IS* missing. 

There isn't a day that goes by that I don't ask B1 how he is feeling, what he is thinking and what can I do for him. Sometimes he shares with me and other times he says that it's something that he needs to work out on his own. I actually prefer that he share it with me. It doesn't mean that I enjoy this process, but I recognize it as a necessary part of moving forward in a positive manner. I guess I selfishly want to deal with this as quickly as possible. I so desperately want this to be behind us. Affairs simply cannot be rugswept away if a true reconciliation is desired. I need for him to heal. There is no possible way that I can ever be happy, again, until I know that he can be happy, as well. 

Why is your husband not in IC? Did he ever go to IC? Are the two of you in MC? I cannot imagine how B1 and would have gotten through all of this without the help of MC and IC for the both of us. 

As far as whether or not your husband carries a special place in his heart for the xAP..... I can't answer that for him. If it was a long term affair, I suspect that it will take a long time for those feelings to fade. But if he maintains NC and focuses his love, time, energy and devotion on you and your marriage, I think that the feelings will eventually fade much like they do for all of those old loves that you had before marriage. He chose you, he is with you. He was willing to be a cake eater for as long as he could get away with it, but when push came to shove he chose you. Hopefully, that gives you some comfort and reassurance.

I wish I could give you more answers. Unfortunately, the answers you seek lie only within your husband and he doesn't seem to be very forthcoming with them. I read a quote on another thread the other day about people not being willing to change until the pain of not changing becomes greater than the pain of changing. Perhaps, you have made things too easy on your husband. Maybe it's time for you to do things a little differently. You said that he doesn't like "pressure." Well, stop pressuring him..... and stop doing his laundry, and stop cooking his meals, and stop cleaning his house, etc. As I said once before, a spouse whether the WS or BS, should never have to beg, demand or make threats in order to have their most basic needs met. He should willingly, if not enthusiastically, want to help you recover from his betrayal. 

Take care,
~EI


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## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

allwillbewell said:


> EI, as usual some really good insights, encouraging and calming. In my case, since husband won't initiate conversations, what WS would? and *is very unwilling, evasive, to the point of anger* and blame shifting when pressured, I am haunted by the possibility that* he still hold his AP in a special place in his heart and always will*. He has said some of the very things you pointed out but how do I know if he is still simply being deceitful in order to keep status quo? !


Hi

You point out key issues (which are really bothering me) again and again for me. So thank you!  

"Being evasive, to the point of anger.." mine is EXACTLY the same. So interesting. I COMPLETELY AGREE mine also NEEDS IC. IC might be better than MC for men who are evasive, secretive and stonewalling. 

It's understandable that you do not wish to speak to your AP. Your S's AP knew about you and your marriage; it's far more sensitive perhaps. I find his AP far more guilty than my husband's AP.

I think it is again a "norm" for strayed husbands to go back to their wife after A. I doubt if they would want to throw away their precious home life, house etc. "Bad Girls" can be found on the side if they wanted them at any time. 

It's funny that his AP told me that my WS told her that she would always be in a special place in his heart after they had their last sex - 2 weeks post-DD. She sounded very pleased by him telling her. I believe he also masturbated over her during A. 

He went back to have this "special" last sex along with sexting telling her "you're my *****!" and how turned on he was. He is a professional and I absolutely could not believe how low he had descended. 

Having said that I am glad that I found out most of the things which went on behind my back. I have no regret over this. I have no doubt that he will do this again when he can. Call me a pessimist. But I don't think many husbands can "cope with" just one body to have sex with. I believe he thinks he deserves "more" (variety, thrill, excitement "FUN") which you do not get from his marriage. (He never tells me this) I know my h does love me but I feel that's simply not enough...


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## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

allwillbewell said:


> Yes, re-establishing trust after years of deceit, don't know if it can ever fully happen, don't know if I would want to be that trusting again. Yes, AP could answer alot of questions, but my pride and what little self esteem I have left doesn't allow me to approach her. She has shown herself to be extremely toxic, and pathetic, *circling our marriage like a shark for over 18 months,* *continually trying to intice H back. *
> 
> According to the emails, they both dissed me as a prude, frigid and so on. I cannot believe she would ever pass up the opportunity to humiliate me and undermine my confidence with the nasty truths or concocted lies. And besides, the truth needs to come from him, he needs to own up, he needs to understand his motives, he needs to see how he contributed to the dysfunction of the marriage, he needs to admit that no matter how *****y he thinks I was,


Hi Allwillbewell

You know it's very interesting to read this as his AP was doing exactly the same. His AP was constantly bugging him to visit her.

As much as I understand how you feel about his AP, I do also wonder if your H had a main part (influence) in her own behaviour (results).

His AP had thought that my H was "hurting from the relationship breakup" and she really sympathized with him. She thought he was lonely and alone (available). When he was asked if he had any GF (!) he said "Nope" all the time we were close at the same time.

Later on, when I told his AP that he's married with me, she was surprised but she said that explained many things she wondered about; then h told me that his AP was "a lying woman" and he told her that he's about to DIVORCED ME! His AP told me the truth as I told her the truth. H told me she was "nothing" "some sad woman who tells lies" - I told her this, which led to their last raunchy sex date post DD.

Not that I am putting your H under a spotlight but have you ever thought that it was your H who was behind her (AP) negative take on you? Some men can play women like a puppet particularly if these men are smart enough to "manipulate" these women. Some men are very good at this.

Sex is so important to these husbands and they probably will tell their APs anything to keep their sex on the tap going for them. Some WSs know exactly what to tell these "loose" women to fall for them. Mine did well enough to keep it (A) going over the past three years. So I wouldn't be surprised if yours did, too..


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