# Separation on the horizon.



## Kolors

Hi all, I've been lurking for a few weeks and decided to toss my experiences out there.

My wife and I have been together for 13 years and will have been married for 10 years as of next month. Like most people, we have had our ups and downs but we have never carried on like we are now.

As of about a month ago, my wife decided that she was ready to move on. She has asked me how I would feel if she got an apartment for a while so she could clear her head out. This of course would involve her taking our two kids with her (4 and 15 months) as she suggests. I own a second house and told her that if it came down to separation, I would move into that home to avoid uprooting the kids and making it too difficult on them.

Over the last two weeks we have had many many discussions about the issues with our marriage as she sees them. I cannot help but agree with her that my attitude has brought on much of what she feels. She will not commit to leaving yet, nor will she ask me to go. Tonight, before she left for dinner with a friend that is in town for the night, she did commit to us at least staying in the same home for three months. This would get us through our anniversary, our family trip to Disney, and the holidays. She hopes to see an abundance of change in that time and hopes that her feelings for me return. As of now, she says that she has built up a total wall around her and that my feelings are not a big concern to her. I believe her when she says it as I have not seen a single spark of care out of her in at least a month. Three times in the couple weeks she has went out to get away from me. One of those nights ended up with her asleep on a friends couch and me being a total wreck at 4:30 in the morning. I am sure that there is no affair going on, she is not that kind of person and would be honest with me.

Now a little bit about me and why she is so unhappy! I have been dealing with depression that I have refuse to admit to over the past two years. My mother was run down in a parking lot and killed at work so it was quite sudden. Until recently, I had not even started to cope with it or even admit that I had an issue. During this time I have grown increasingly distant from everyone around me. 

The issues finally came to a head around three months ago when I started having extreme anxiety and my blood pressure went through the roof. Having become withdrawn, I did not even bother talking to my wife about my issues. I had also put most all of the responsibility of keeping up the house and taking care of two kids on her as I did not even begin to stay involved with those around me. The next thing I realized, I was either locking myself in my office all day at work or leaving early. After a good month, she finally forced me to go to the doctor and they put me on BP meds as well as some anti-anxiety meds. I took a week off work to recover but it still took me a solid three weeks before I started to recover at all. During this time it all became too much for her. 

I had caught strep and was too sick to really fight. She tried to explain to me what my sickness was doing to her but I was too sick and tired to listen. For the only time in my life, I told her that I just did not care to listen right now and proceeded to go lay down. This was the beginning of the situation that I am in now. 

Since that day she has totally walled me off. It is unfortunate because after a couple days of late night talks, I feel better than I have in years. I was able to tell her about the place where I had been mentally and admit to the personal misery that I had been going through. Too little too late I am afraid. I am finally in a place of clarity where I have become a hands on father and a contributor to the duties around the house. I told her that I understand her frustration and that she distanced herself from a man who had become hopeless but I planned to do everything in my power to make amends. 

Even though we had fought about things such as housework or getting up with kids at night, we have never talked of separation. With her no promises discussion of three months I feel as though my days around here are numbered and that she will continue to use that time to ease herself into the transition. I told her that this would be the only time that we would have this discussion and that if it happened again, I would happily leave on my own.

I am really at a loss. I plan to continue on being positive and helpful but I fear that her mind is made up. I guess I really just needed to vent somewhere. Hopefully this will have a happy ending.


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## mablenc

I'm sorry you have been though quite an ordeal. Maybe seek IC, what happened to your mother is very tragic. I'm sorry for your loss.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Daisy2714

Take it for what it's worth but I don't think her mind is made up. Hope is a strong thread. She's giving you three months. She won't make it easy on you but she's giving you three months. Be grateful for that. It's not too late. Good luck to you.


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## EleGirl

You have 3 months to turn things around. 

There is a book that I think can really help you, "His Needs, Her Needs". 

Read the book and get into counseling for yourself. Then at some point as her to go to marriage counseling with you.

Is she a SAHM?

Do not agree to you moving out of your house or with her moving your children out of your house. If you do either, your chances of saving your marriage/family are almost zero.

See an attorney now about what you can do to prevent her from moving out with the children. Don't tell her you are doing this. Just be prepared to act if you need to.


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## Kolors

Funny enough, I was laying here on the couch reading His Needs, Her Needs already. We were giving a copy of it by the minister that married us 10 years ago!

She is not a stay at home mom. After our son was born 15 months ago she took an extended leave from work to spend time with him. When she did return it was three days a week for about four hours a day in order to see her friends and get a break from being home constantly.

I think I will find some sort of counseling for me. Though I have problems with her currently, she really is the one problem that cannot be solved until all the other ones fall in line. We actually went to counseling several years ago after our first child was born but she didn't seem to get what she wanted out of it.

As of now I just plan to carry on my routine and fight on.


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## Kolors

Yay for Friday! I have been looking forward to the weekends because I will not have to sit in my office and dwell on the negatives in my life. I also get to spend more time with the kids, which I am truly starting to appreciate. It feels like the farther she goes away from me the closer I get with the kids. Last night my daughter and I just laid around on the couch watching cartoons and laughing until she fell asleep in my lap. We have not had snuggle up time like that in over a year I would guess.

I did have a heated, but no yelling, discussion with my wife before she left for the evening. Over the course of the last decade we have had a serious disconnect three times and each time I can tell that she has been pushed past her comfort level because she begins a trend of going out at night and treating it like a punishment. She always says that it is because I never let her go with her friends and she only feels like she can do it when she no longer cares how I feel about it. It also always turns into coming home hours later than she stated and typically drinking and driving. I tend to stay up worried that something bad will happen between the bar and the house and I start to get worried when it is an hour past when she said she will be there.

Last night we had the same discussion that we always have before she goes out. Me: So when do you think you will be home? Her: No idea, if I am still having fun then I will just stay later. After a few round and rounds she finally said that she intended to be home by midnight since we have to get the kids up and going in the mornings and she drops them off at school. For the first time since this started, she came home really close to what she said. This totally beats the last two times where it was at 1AM and 4:30AM. 

Here is what I have come to realize after some reading and thinking. Emotionally, she is really attached to a very small group of friends. Right now she is in a transition where she is leaving the only job that she has had for 15 years and starting a new one. I know she is scared of losing the people that have cared for her emotionally while I have been distant. I can't say that I do not understand her feelings. I also understand that it is hard to jump into being emotionally invested in someone who has really put forth very little effort over the last couple years. Aside from bringing home a paycheck, cooking our meals, and taking out the trash, I have contributed very little. 

My goals for this weekend are to continue to be a contributor. I know she is worried that with her being full time at a new job the house and kids will fall apart. I fully intend to pick up the slack. I have started to enjoy shepherding the kids around the house and really do not mind jumping in on the cleaning and washing.

I also plan to go away and have some free time. I have a family commitment first thing tomorrow and then I plan to spend some time on my own. I plan to finish up reading His Needs, Her needs and I have some course work that I can use the silence to bang out. I may just spend the day at the river managing myself and unwinding. 

I also plan to work at the 180 plan. Wasting away my days discussing why I was such a bad husband and in such a bad mental place will not help anything. Over the last almost month it has been me, not her, that starts any dialogue about us. Each talk ends with, "I don't know if my feelings will come back. Lets give it some time and see if the changes you make do anything." From reading the plan (About 50 times in the last day) I can see that it will pretty much force me into a better place. Even if it does not work out with her, it will help me be ready to move on in the end.

Hopefully the posts get shorter in the future! I just have a ton on my chest that I have not unloaded in a while. It makes it harder because my mother was who I used to talk to whenever my wife and I had big issues (she typically took my wife's side!) but unfortunately I cannot now.


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## Kolors

It's been quite the long weekend. I really do not know if we are any better off today than before but we have at least talked. We have talked to the point where there really isn't a lot left to say.

Friday night we sat down and had a long talk about communication and missing signals from each other. She told me that over the last year that she has tried to come to me and let me know that I was pushing her away. I totally missed it. I never took what she was talking to me about as deal breakers, I just floated through the conversation until I felt she was happy and then continued on. She maintained that she still had no feelings towards our relationship. She is at a point where she really has not point any thought into working it out since she feels that it will just lead to me appeasing her with words and actions for a few weeks and then diving back into my shell. I told her that I wanted to establish time to have clear communication with each other each evening. Our talks do not have to be emotionally downing but I am sure that due to the pain that she has inside as well as the regret and anxiety that I have now, many will. Near the end of the conversation she told me that if she gave it another shot and I did not follow through that she would go ahead and ask me to leave, file papers, and keep everything that he lawyer would grab. I agreed, if we both put forth a serious daily effort to build a healthy relationship and failed, we do not need to waste each others time still.

Saturday we had a minor setback on a shopping trip. I had received in a check that I had planned to use as spending cash for a trip to Disney (Hers and the kids first time) at the end of October. When I pointed it out, she made a comment to the effect of "Oh, you dont want to cancel that?". It hit me like a ton of bricks. Just 10 hours before we had agreed to do the hard work. I asked her what she meant, as it was quite important to our family to take that trip and she told me that she couldn't imagine being stuck somewhere with me for seven days and enjoying it. I really didn't know what to say. I finally said that we had insurance on the trip and if it comes time to leave and it is too uncomfortable then we can still get our money back. I asked her two weeks ago if she wanted to cancel it and she did not. I told her then that if she wanted me out, I could cancel the trip and use that money to buy furniture for another home that I own and move in. After we returned home we had a very brief discussion away from the children where I told her that I understood the feeling that she has but I cannot fight with her each time she has negative feelings. I told her that I still agreed that I will leave if we work hard, rebuild our lives, and it all falls apart again. She told me again that even though her feelings are blocked out that she would continue to let things run their course.

Later Saturday evening I had a baby sitter come by and watch the kids so we could get away for a few hours. We ended up sitting downtown where we met and letting alot of animosity out. She railed against me for not effectively responding to her. We both felt like we had become roommates with little to nothing to talk about and that it hurt us both. I listened to everything that she had built up and refused to let it become an argument. After a solid hour of dumping she finally asked me why she should let me back in. I really did not have an answer for her. Anything that I could think of was just selfish. I can see her point in the fact that if I weren't supportive of our marriage before, what says I can do it now. I understand that if she feels like she is numb to the heartache now, why open herself up for another dose of it. I think some headway was made as our talk ended up with me telling her that I want nothing more than to commit myself to her and to experience her all over again. I asked her to allow us time to sit and learn each other again and to remember that there was a time where we were the most important thing in each others lives. There was a time where I rushed through my day to sit and hold her hand and that if we took time again to understand and love each other above all we could make it work for another 10 years. She truly seemed to take that in and the tone of our night changed.

We left and went to a local park to walk. I asked her what the most important thing in a marriage to her was and she replied "respect". Respect of her feelings, of how she is spoken to, and of her accomplishments. Sitting down while she cleans house is disrespectful. Sleeping till 8 when she wakes up with the kids as 7 is disrespectful. Feeling the need to debate everything instead of just trusting her judgement is disrespectful. So respect is the first thing that I am working on. I also confronted her about another man that she is quite close to. I told her that I know that she is emotionally attached to him, they work together everyday and he is there to talk to her when I shut her out. I understand that emotionally, she has replaced a good bit of me with him and that I could not blame her for it. It has never been a physical relationship between them, nothing aside from a bond that she has created to fill in the gaps of what she was not receiving at home. I told her that I understand that she is terrified that she will lose that bond (She starts a new job Tuesday) and have noone, but I intend to stick myself out there and reclaim the place that I should have been for the longest. We also covered things like how she felt like I did not want to be touched by her but how I felt that she didn't want me to touch her either (how sad), how we rarely had fun when we went out because I had started to believe that I was no fun to her so I would take her places where she would bump into friends and I could watch her be happy. We talked about sexual issues that we have because she still feels the need to measure up to the women that I dated in the past or the stories that she has heard from various people. 

The night was both invigorating and exhausting. When we finally returned home around 11:30 we cleaned up the kids mess and went to bed. We have not touched each other much in the last month, instead we have slept at the far edges of our king sized bed. The last few nights I have put a hand on her shoulder and she has held my fingers. To me, that has become the best part of my day. Last night I stayed away though, I really did not want to push any more issues for the day and forcing touch could make for another setback for both of us.

Today I am knocking out coursework that I have fallen behind on and getting the cars detailed. We have spoke and we have laughed and we have played with the kids. I agreed to alternate weekends that we get up with the children and she got to sleep in until 8:40 for the first time in 5 years. I believe she is taking the kids on a nature trail later today. I asked if she wanted me to come and she said she didn't care one way or another. I think I will just give her some space and let her go it alone. A family friend is camping there (who happens to be one of the ones that told her to not give up on us) and she wants to drop in on him and his wife. 

I do not plan to get into anything emotional with her tonight. I would like to put the kids in bed, watch some TV with her, and be generally pleasant. Heres to a good night.


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## Oblivious2678

Kolors, you seem to be on the right track. I would advise less to no talk about the past and just do like you mentioned in the last post, be pleasant around her, be the best dad you can be, and LISTEN to her. Ask her how her day went and listen intently to show you truly care about what is going on in her daily life. If you keep focusing on the relationship talk and the past, you will continue to push her away. Focusing on you and being yourself (the man she fell in love with), she will notice the progress you are making. You have to be confident that she will notice it. Make sure it is genuine and effortless on your part. If you have to try to be something you are not in order to please her, you are doing an injustice to yourself and her. Stay positive, stay patient, and take baby steps. I am telling myself the same thing every day.


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## Kolors

Yea, today is really the first day of buck up that I have had in couple weeks. I spent a good half hour chatting online with an old friend who had 9 years of bad marriage that they managed to turn around today. I really just need to keep myself busy during that down time at the end of the day and Ill fell like the day is a success.


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## Kolors

It really seems like every time I get relaxed she pushes my buttons with one of the few things that immediately make me anxious. 

Over the last few weeks she has really increased her time away with friends. I am not saying that she is out of the house every night but she is either out or trying to get out 2-3 nights a week now. The last couple times that we had large fights she fell into this same pattern until I became rude about it and it stopped. This time, I hope that she just gets her fill and knocks it back on her own.

Today she told me at 4PM that some friends were getting together tonight at about 8PM for an hour at a local restaurant to see a friend off that has been in town for the last week. This is the third time since Thursday that they have had a get together just for him. Technically fourth if you count meeting back up again today after having lunch this morning. I know there is nothing physical going on but she had become dependent on him mentally a couple years ago when they worked together. 

Anyhow, as I have said before, I typically have a come apart everytime she goes out at night since she NEVER returns near the time that she says. Thursday of last week was the first time that I can remember where she came home even remotely close to the time that she gave me when she left. Even then she pushed it by coming home almost 30 minutes later. I felt like that was for her to prove to herself that she wasn't living by my rules but for her to avoid my drama. The Saturday before that she was going to be home some time before 11PM and that night ended when I had to call her over and over at 4:30 AM to wake her up off a male friends couch. So needless to say, I have ample reasons to be a total spazz when she leaves to go hang out with her friends.

As the today story goes, at first the talk was to run out for an hour and be home. I reminded her that I had work that I needed to do tonight and would not be able to take care of the kids (the first time in three weeks that I have let myself get behind on coursework) and that she starts a new job tomorrow morning and really does not need to have a super fun be home at 2AM drinking with my friends fest. As per our usual discussions, the heat turned on with her and the anxiety started with me. This time however, I think it ended differently.

This time I stopped the entire conversation and told her that I understand that time with her friends is one of the things that she enjoys the most and has missed the most since she had two kids. I told her that as part of me trying to be a better, more supportive husband, that I fully want to stop with the drama each time she goes out and let her enjoy herself. I also asked her to look at it from my side before she gets too angry. I told her that my anxiety comes from her inability to set normal times to come home and stick to them. I asked her to take into account the fact that she needs to be fresh tomorrow morning and that we have to start a new routine due to it and pick a time that she feels gives her plenty of time with her friends and will not make me feel like an ass when she blows off what she said. Believe it or not, the conversation turned friendly again and she told me that she would make it a point to be here by 10:30 at the latest, more than likely she would be home sooner. I told her that if she did indeed make it home that it would be a huge building block in her favor and I would feel more apt to trust her in the future.

You know, you really have to start building somewhere. To me, this has been one of the issues that has really hurt us in our marriage. She doesn't feel comfortable asking to go out because I spazz out about when she will be home and I feel disrespected every time she just stays another hour to finish talking to someone she hasn't seen in forever.

I really hope this turns out to be a victory for us tonight and not a giant argument at midnight that leads to a bad evening for us both.


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## Kolors

Well, slight victory last night and huge defeat. She almost made it home by the time that she had picked. She was about 10 minutes late while was due to stopping and filling the vehicle that I am driving today up with gas and wrapping up a phone call. This is still part of her trying to make me realize that my rules do not apply to her currently. I did however really push an issue with her that caused us to sleep in separate rooms for the first time and me to not get to sleep until 2:30. 

I heard her phone go off Sunday night while she was in the shower and grabbed it for her. When I looked it was a random text from one of her friends about much of nothing but I noticed the text below it was from her friend saying he would see her at 11AM on Monday. I've never had any weird vibes about this guy and he moved off a couple years back with his wife and kids. When I pulled him up I saw their lunch plans (which didn't matter to me in the least) but then I noticed that her conversations with him over the last few days were missing bits and pieces that had been deleted. Later in the evening I asked her about her plans for her last day off work and all she mentioned was meeting a girlfriend of hers and one of her friends friends for lunch, at 1:30. I left it alone and brought him up in another conversation later in the evening. I asked when he was heading home (Tuesday Morning) and if they all had any plans to hook back up before he left since we wouldn't see him for several more years I would guess. Her reply was "No, he is way to busy with his mom and family for that." Even when I told her that I was surprised that they didn't hook back up she kept to her story.

Yesterday I called her a bit after her denied lunch was to start and she actually answered. When I asked what she was up to she started with "Just sitting here". After a little prodding it became, "I'm sitting at a restaurant with Keith, he managed to come into town to see everyone one last time." I blew it off to her like it was no big deal, asked her whatever question I had for it, wished he a good day, and back to the office I went.

When she got home last night I had told her that I had started reading 5 love languages. One of my other friends suggested it so I downloaded it and started reading it while she was out last night. She then lays into me about how she wishes I would have done it four years ago and it really pisses her off that I am working on me now. She laid into me about how she really had just wanted me to leave a few weeks ago but now she has committed six months (not three anymore) to riding this thing out but she cannot promise that she will ever feel like being married to me again. I explained to her that it will be damn near impossible to keep working on me while around her if she just keeps that up every time I try to talk to her. I also told her that I really won't need six months, she will either become willing and receptive to the changes or I would make my own date to leave before the uncomfortableness became too much for me to handle. We then went to bed.

I don't know why but the whole situation was eating at me. I grabbed my phone and went back to the couch to do some reading so I could pass out. Curiosity then got the best of me. I started to wonder, if she was hiding something so simple as lunch with a friend, what else could she be hiding? I grabbed her phone off the couch and pulled up all of the old deleted messages and almost blew up.

I found messages between her and him making references to getting a hotel room, grabbing some wine, him making a crack about "Can we at least make out?", and her telling him that they could not because of both of their situations. Aside from that, there were other text messages with her other guy friend, that although nonsexual, were what was taking up all of the time between when we put the kids in bed and when we went to bed. I had assumed that she was just playing games on her phone, but she was really unwinding with another man at the end of the night.

Anyhow, I lost my cool. I have been very submissive during this whole ordeal but the thought that she may have been sneaking around behind my back with this friend of ours was too much to just sleep on. I stormed back into the bedroom and confronted her about it. I knew it would turn into "Why are you snooping on me?" but I could not help it, I am just getting kinda tired of being pushed around just because I am the one doing the fighting for our relationship. 

First I asked he what was going on between the two of them and she said "Nothing, where is this coming from?". I that I knew she lied to me about meeting up for lunch and that raised suspicions. I told her that I had given her every chance on Sunday to tell me that the two of them were meeting up and she lied right to my face about it. I told her that at that moment I felt like she was doing something suspicious and needed to find out for myself. She finally woke up and told me that it was just harmless, they had always flirted around but she had not touched another man in the 12 years we have been together. She said that she had deleted those messages because she didn't want me to bump into them and feel like something was doing on that wasn't. I also asked her why she felt the need to delete all of her conversations with the other male friend that she has a way to deep emotional attachment to and she said the same thing, she didn't want me to feel like I was being ignored for him so she figured that it was easier to clean it up than deal with it next time I grabbed her phone for some reason.

I really wanted to believe her, but I was so raged out by that point that it got ugly. I raised my voice for the first time that I can remember. She asked me why we were doing this and I told her the truth, if she had not lied to my face about lunch then I would not have become suspicious that something was going on behind my back. If she had been honest, none of it would have went down. I also explained to her that in 12 years I had not even flirted with another woman, much less made jokes about grabbing a hotel room or making out. I told her that even though I am on the losing side in our relationship currently, this was not OK. There would be no more of this being sneaky and holding onto other men as a crutch.

Needless to say, we ended up in different rooms last night. After we finally got into bed she got back up and stormed into our daughters room. Neither of us really slept. She laid there awake until 1:30 and I was awake until almost 3. This morning was much more cordial. She asked me if I had anything to say about last night and I told her that I was sorry that I had taken it to such an extreme but I would expect her to do the same if I were doing things that made her feel like I was messing around. Today starts her new job, that she says she is taking in order to make me happy, and I remained positive and supportive all morning. We still hugged and told each other that we love each other, ran thorough all of the things that we need to accomplish today and out the door I went.

I told her that I was through talking about our issues for a while. I really do not have the energy to discuss it. She can sit back and see that I am making changes in my life to be a more effective husband and father or she can be miserable until March and we can go our separate ways. I've picked a date myself now that is much sooner than March. I personally cannot handle this that long. Granted I put her through a few years of a crappy marriage, but being in limbo is something my soul can only take for so long.

And yes, we still talked about our vacation this morning. It is so strange what we hold on to.


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## Kolors

Never thought I would consider a day a successful based on not having it out with my wife.

Tuesday was the first day in three weeks where there were no discussions of our marriage or feelings or disappointments.

We had an excellent conversation at lunch about her new job and all of the people. We both avoided conversation about the blow up the night before with the exception of how tired we both were and that we would never do it again.

I planned to stay busy last night to avoid idle time that could create potential problems. I always feel the need to talk when it gets quiet and right now it is always "us" that I want to talk about. 

I coached our daughters soccer game, then we ran out to do some shopping and pick up dinner. We talked and laughed most of the evening while running around. After we made it back home, we fed the kids and got everyone in bed about a half hour later than usual. I handled our son since he is usually fussy at bedtime so she could sit and relax alone for a while. After getting him to bed I grabbed one of my textbooks and hit the couch.

We had another talk about the new people that she was working with as well as selling a few vehicles and buying a bigger family car for trips. Everything seemed so natural. When we had talked (well, yelled for the first time actually) the night before she finally asked just what I wanted and I told he it was for her to just be normal and allow me to make the changes in my life that would please her and rescue our family. I really think that she is trying to let me adjust and make it up to her or giving me enough rope to hang myself.

We still are not cuddling in bed at night but that is not a huge surprise. I bought a king sized bed when the baby came so we would have room and we were so happy to have space that we slowly gravitated towards our own sides. I have started putting my hand on her shoulder when she rolls over and she reaches up to hold my fingers. To me, that has become the best part of my day.

Here's to today and no setbacks.


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## LongWalk

Seems she has a whole gang of friends from which you are excluded. This gang includes men with whom she has affairs. You believe they are merely EAs but she has partied very late. Don't you think she was taking it physical?

You are denied sex. That is often a sign that she wants to be faithful to a lover. Holding her finger tips makes you happy? Come on this unbearable, even to read about. 

Every time you nag her about her social life with other men you have verbal confrontations. These just make you look weak. You must act?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Kolors

There were no physical affairs and the whole gang of friends includes mostly mutual friends. Also aside from the last few weeks she tends to go out on average twice a year. The other 363 days of the year she is sitting in our den playing with kids or cleaning up the house, typically without my help. So yea, if she was squeezing a PA in she should be on here giving people tips on how to do it. She has however relied on a couple other guys for conversation and support while I pretty much sat around and ignored her.

I don't remember mentioning being denied any sex other than in the last month, and I haven't even attempted to try. Seeing as I almost lived at a new address three weeks ago, pushing the physical issue would be a huge mistake.

And yes, right now I look weak. I have been on the weak side of every discussion since this all started, mostly due to the fact that I am to blame for a majority of it. I am acting and it seems to be getting better. 

It's really not as simple as man up and tell your wife to get over it. That is some pro advice!


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## Iver

I would contact her "friends" wife and ask for her number so you could send her the texts your wife and he had exchanged.

Tell her this was unacceptable to you and you wanted her to know about it. Then contact the friend and tell him you shared them with his wife and they are to cease. Remember - being nice about disrespect is never in your best interests.

Have you read Athol Kay's MMSL? 

Lastly, do you have some one who could babysit the kids on a weekend so you two could maybe do a spa weekend away?


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## Kolors

Truth is, we do not really have any people to just take the kids for the weekend. My father and her father both live 10 or so hours away, her mother works twelves on most all weekends and really doesn't just stop by all that often. Since my mom was killed two years ago, we really just have not had that person to take the kids for us on a consistent basis. This really leads to us getting to go out without children once every couple months. We talked about that tonight actually.

I am pretty much over the texting the two guys deal. I did make a serious stand that involved me ranting and raving like a madman over it. One of the guys is just a platonic friend that she talks to constantly. For the longest time I was convinced that he was gay but he is apparently just into young chicks that party and drink heavily on a nightly basis. Their messages are also about stupid gossipy coworker junk and about her boredom sitting around the house while everyone ignores her. The other guy is where I had the issue since some of the things between them were inappropriate. I totally spazzed and blew her ass out for those. I know that I will see him next time he is in town so I will straighten it out with him as well. 

One thing I remembered today was myself when I was in their industry. When I was a chef, I talked junk to every female that walked past my line. Hot or not, young or old, I made comments about what we were doing later that night and what we could do if their husbands were away. Would I have backed this up? Nah, it was part of the job as long as you didn't catch a sexual harassment suit. I am willing to bet that a good bit of his comments were the same. Out of all the texts, deleted ones and non-deleted ones, none of them were comments she made to him, it was all one sided from him to her. Either way, she knows that it is not appreciated and all hell will break lose if it happens again. 

I did stumble upon Athol's site a few days ago and Ill add MMSL to my list.

On a happy note, I arranged a meeting with a new MC today for the 21st. I told my wife that I had made an appointment with a MC that also does IC and she was more than welcome to join me if she would like. She really didn't say anything at the time but a little while ago she approached me to make sure that I had someone lined up for the kids so we could go together.

Long road to go. Getting it done one step at a time.


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## missthelove2013

so respect = "become my servant"??....really...
There is NOTHING wrong with taking turns sleeping in while the other is up early with the kids, who the hell expects BOTH parents to get up for every feeding or crying, that is just stupid

and if I am working full time and she is home, there will be times when I sit on my ass while she does housework...

also...you mentioned it had been a year since you cuddled with your daughter...you missed an entire year?!?!?...not judging, just feel bad for you on this one...

she sounds like she has another dude waiting and is just fishing for reasons to give you the boot...dont leave, dont abandon the kids...stay there, let her move into the other house...you leave and its abandonment...


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## Kolors

Yea, we never took turns with anything. If a kid woke up she went and got them. Last weekend was the first time since my son was born that I got up with him and let her sleep in. 

I felt the same way about the house work. For the longest she didn't work or only worked a few hours a week so I let her do all the housework and really never paid any attention to if she cared or not. Other than the last 8 months of our relationshp, she has worked full time and handled both kids. Since we hooked up 12 years ago we have had a fight about every third year about how she would like me to do more around the house so she didn't feel like a maid. I usually do pretty good about chipping in for a few weeks until I am not in trouble and then I go right back to sitting around playing games or reading while she handles all the business.

As for checking out with the kids, yep I pretty much did it. I really didn't put out any affection to anyone around me. We still did family things or played around in the yard but my wife handled all of the bedtime duties or sick kid duties while I ignored most everything around me.

I am rather sure there is no other guy still. If it were that simple we would split right up. If she wanted me out of the house when this all started she could have said there was one and she knows that would have ended any talks. I asked her straight up twice if it were another guy or even the possibility of another guy and both times she told me that she has not messed around with anyone since we met and is simply tired of being used like a servant and sex machine.

If it turns out to be another guy I will be sure to make a video for everyone of me eating my hat. Sometimes the most logical answer (She is tired of her husband ignoring his family and not making any real contributions other than a paycheck) is the answer.


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## Kolors

And on a different note, we had a second day with no real discussion of our issues and problems. She had her second day at her new job and it was terrible to her. Being a restaurant person for the last fifteen years she is not used to an office setting. It was quite an adjustment for me to go from the free form lifestyle of hospitality to the mostly rigid, just you and four walls, life of an office worker. The entirety of her day consisted of sitting in an empty office (her new office will not be ready for two weeks) and reading manual after manual about state legal practices. It is really going to take some adjustment for her. 

I made sure to tell her that although I had not really been here to talk in the last few years that I was there to be supportive and listen to her vent. For the first time in recent memory we set the children in the other room in front of the TV (we really do not let them watch TV) and just sat at the kitchen table so she could vent. It turns out that she really only took this job so I would be proud of her and so I would feel like she was finally contributing financially to the family. I did my best to just let her get it out and by the end of the conversation she had turned back into her happy old self. Aside from that, she really spent no time later that evening talking to her girlfriends on Facebook like what has become more common these days. Instead, we put the kids to bed, I took a quick exam, and we played a game of chess while we talked about nothing. It felt good to hang out and laugh with her again.


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## Kolors

It is strange. We seem to be in a step forward, set back pattern around the house.

Last night I tried to break the cycle of put the kids in bed and then do our own things. Once we sat down for the evening she jumped on Facebook as usual. I asked her if she wanted to just hang out and talk or play a game (we are really big into board games). I really did not want to get into anything emotional but of course once we started talking. 

She told me that she really gave up on us over a month ago. She felt like I would never change and that the only thing she could do was to wall me off and find a way to separate. Even with the positive changes that I have made and the course that I am staying on, she really does not know if her feelings will come back. She told me that she had become so used to being alone that she learned to accept it and that she had made it OK to not have me around. I asked her again if there was someone else, or even the though of someone else and she still says no. She had been dedicated to fixing us for some time now but she had finally checked out and she is unsure if it is just too late. I was also told that affection between us currently did nothing for her. It didn't disgust her but she did not crave it. At some point I had my arms around her and she said she no longer felt that safe feeling and that it would all be OK when we touched.

I really didn't know where to go with that. I told her that if that was where this was going to stay then we could just wrap it all up when we got home from our vacation on Nov 2nd. I really didn't feel that I could stay with someone that no longer cared to work it out. I also told her that I kinda felt like she had already picked a date in her mind of when she was going to tell me "See look, you have tried for X amount of time to be a great husband and the feelings are just not there. Here are your papers." She assured me that it was not true and that any split would be mutual.

After that the mood of the conversation shifted and she told me some truths that I had not heard. Right now she is forcing herself to not let me back in. She is really just holding on and waiting to see what I do and how I handle this whole situation. She told me that I am still her husband and she loves me but she really does not want to risk allowing me feelings and emotions if I will just cut her off all over again. She told me that she was feeling like she is letting herself down by giving me one last chance since she had made her mind up already.

That last statement was both hopeful and crushing. She has backed down on any sort of time limit to work things out, it has become more of a lets see how this feels as it progresses. She hopes that through counseling she can break down the wall that she built and allow our family to heal. She finished the conversation by saying she would work on it and give us a chance.

I have no clue if she is serious or just trying to shut me up for a few days but she stuck to her guns this morning. I asked her if she was just trying to appease me and end the conversation last night or if she meant what she said. She told me that she meant that she will work on it, she could not promise me that she would get over it but she will quit trying to ignore it. 

After we loaded the son up in my vehicle this morning we hugged and she cried. I kissed her on the cheek, told her that regardless of all the crap we have going on, I loved her and wished her a good day at her new job. A little while later she called to see if I had something in my car and told me she loved me as we got off the phone.

Who knows where this is going? I hope that we look back on this in 10 years and are thankful that we went through it because our marriage came out stronger in the end.

Here's to Friday night. May it be less emotional and more fulfilling.


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## Oblivious2678

Kolors,
I know exactly how you feel after that conversation. I was devastated when I heard all that as well. That's when I immediately started to focus on myself thanks to research and TAM. I had to get myself fixed, determine what I want, determine who I truly am. I did this, but it isn't enough. 

Now the tough part begins for you that began for me several weeks ago...Wait and be patient. She is in control. She will let you know when she is ready to work on things, either through counseling or yourselves. You have to stop bringing up the issue. You have to be yourself around her, the combination of the old you that she fell in love with and the new you that has improved who you are. If she brings it up, you can talk about it. Be happy around her. Be confident in yourself and what you are doing. Attempt affection based on what your gut tells you at that time. Adopt the FEAR acronym; False Evidence that Appears Real. Remember this. It will prevent you from overthinking every little action she does to get a read on the situation. I did this, thought there was progress, and she shot me down cold. My best friend advised me that just because she shot it down doesn't mean there hasn't been progress made. There has been progress made...with myself. There hasn't been progress for her putting her guard down and being ready to pursue fixing us. 

You have to live day by day now with your life/marriage hanging in the balance. We are more vulnerable than we ever have been with the faith that our wives will heal and allow themselves to be vulnerable again to us. Be ready for the long haul. It's going to be a long rollercoaster ride.


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## Kolors

I totally avoid roller coasters though, I am more of a carnival games kinda guy!


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## Kolors

Why does it feel like I have to be an ass to get anywhere with my wife now? It seems like when we have calm discussions about reality as it pertains to us nothing happens but a lot of crying and blame. I am starting to grow tired of being wrong in every situation. I am actually starting to get angry and pushing back more than I am comfortable with currently.

Tonight I got in trouble for volunteering to go to the store for milk because she wanted to go in order to have a break from the kids. Last night I got in trouble for balling like a baby after I received an email from my lawyer that the papers in my mothers wrongful death suit were finally fired. By the way, today is the two year anniversary of her bring killed. She was pissed that I am just now properly grieving instead of two years ago when "she wanted to help me." How incredibly freaking rude is that? I am seriously at my wits end.

She still claims to need some space to think it all out. She doesn't believe that I can keep up with caring for the kids and contributing around here domestically at the rate that I have been for the last three weeks. I really don't want to tell her that it really isn't that hard to do because that will open up a HUGE fight. I tried to set up some boundaries with her last night but she still didn't know what she wanted. I asked once again if I need to go stay in the other house for a while and she said no. I asked if she would like me to sleep in another bed here and she said no. I even asked if she just wants me to hang out in our den at night for a while so she can have time to think alone and she couldn't answer either. I told her that I would be happy to go have papers drawn up and she can hold on to them just in case and she didn't want that. Tonight I asked if I needed to keep single coverage insurance through my company as a precaution (we start on her much cheaper insurance next month) and she said that even if stuff doesn't pan out she will just keep me in it for a few months until open enrollment again. That's a year away!

And before people chime in, there isn't another guy still. Of the ones she had me worried about they have stopped talking. The one guy is still happy with his girlfriend and not into her and the other is back in his home state and she really won't hear from him for another year.

I really am starting to think that if she just gets out all of the old in her mind and adjusts to this new job things may begin to calm down. Her friends are all telling her to go home and fix it, it really is just on her now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Best day in months yesterday. There really is something to being firm and regaining control. We aren't back physically but we have never been one of those all over each other couples constantly.

After going to the "I'm just not going to talk about it anymore, let me know if there is something you want to talk about and we will sit down after the kids are in bed" stance there has been no emotional drama. Even grocery shopping, which she tends to hate with a passion, went by rather easily yesterday.

The combination of staying consistent with working with the kids and helping with the domestic duties as well as staying firm and regrowing my spine are paying off.

Here's to Monday!


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## LongWalk

In a day how many decisions do you share in? What do you do together that you enjoy? Does your family watch a lot of TV?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Kolors

It It has a varied throughout time. Right now it is more 50-50 since we are actually sitting down and talking about everything. For the first six years or so I probably made 70% of all the decisions. The last three or four years I have deferred to her more often since the decisions typically involve things for the children. I've kind of went with the mother knows best philosophy. We are really not TV people. We let our children watch TV and maybe an hour a day, and that tends to be while we are making dinner and getting the house in order. When we do sit down and watch television without the children is typically shows that we both really enjoy. If those aren't on the TV may be on a music channel or the news just as background noise. On Saturdays we both watch college football because she and I both really enjoys it . I believe that's part of living in the south and we not want to get kicked out.

As for things that we do together, but play a lot of board games, garden, video games, and go to silly festivals for day trips. Before we had children we spent the majority of our time playing video games or going out to hear bands play at local bars.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

So, no real drama or arguments in the last few days. The only comment that has been made recently was when I was talking about a possible vacation next year and she said "Who knows where we will be in a year." I think that is her way of reminding me that I need to not bottle back up and get lazy on the family again.

So far the new family schedule is working out well. She used to drop off and pick up both kids each day, now we each drop off one in the morning, I pick up one at 2pm who sits at my office until 4, then I pick the other one up on my ride home from daycare. This puts us both getting home at 5ish which has been great.

She went to a charity event last night after the kids soccer game. As per the usual, I asked when she thought she would be home and she told me 8 PM. I just knew 8 would turn into 10:30 when we parted ways. When I got the kids home I saw the event on my FB page and it was running till 8:30. I knew she made a mistake in her planning but I let it be and kept the kids on schedule with food and bed. Much to my surprise, she walked in the door at 7:58! Never in a million years did I expect it. 

Now for my last issue. I really want to call up the friend of ours that sent her the off color text messages. I really am not pissed off about it anymore and I believe that there was no harm intended but I really want to express my dislike of that sort of behavior. I am still OK with them being friends and even hanging out the once a year he comes to town but a line needs to be drawn. I need to clear it with her before I do it so she understands that I am not trying to **** up her friendship, I am trying to prolong it. She understands that if I ever find or suspect anything like that again I will handle it with him in person, which has the possibility of turning out way nastier than a phone call. You guys think I should push the issue and tell her that I need to call him to get all of that off my chest or just leave it alone? I really think I would feel much better if I had a chance to confront him on it. If he still lived here in town instead of 12 hours away I would have already been on his doorstep and it would have been laid to rest.

I also feel good that the spiteful comments are starting to slow down. She had a good bit of repressed rage over my lack of work around the house and lack of care for the kids. Now that we have established a new routine around the house things are so much better. We are still managing to hit the couch at 8:15ish each night but now everything is done and she isn't stomping down the hallway with a load of laundry and sighing at me on the couch.

My goal is to keep up the good work. Aside from calling our mutual friend about his old tests, there are no other issues in our marriage that are holding us back. She needs me to stay consistent and I need her to begin her healing process. 12 days until our MC appointment, and 17 days until our 10th anniversary and we leave to take the kids to Disney.


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## Keepin-my-head-up

Disney fixes EVERYTHING!
That is all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Yep, I've been banking on the happiest place on earth breaking her shell. She is just so far gone in comparison to anything that I have ever encountered with her that I have no idea where this thing will go.

We had a small discussion in the car yesterday that went from simple question to full blown anger in next to no time. It really makes me just want to not talk to her at all while she deals with her junk but when I do that I am ignoring her.

After the kids went to bed we had yet another long talk (I am so freaking tired of talking) about where her expectations are. According to her, she has not been any happier in the last month, regardless of how much I have recovered or what I am doing for her and the kids. For some reason she still wants to give it time to see if her feelings return but it is extremely hard for me to keep going when I can tell that she refuses to move on and see the big picture.

I asked again if I should go ahead and leave or at least have the guy that is staying in my other house start looking for a place to live (he is staying there for free while I have it on the market to sell) but as usual she says no, she will give it time and see where it goes. She also told me that had we not had children we wouldn't even be discussing this still, which I agreed. We both came from divorced homes and always wanted to provide a happy home for our kids just to prove that it can be done.

When we talk she always cries from start to finish. I can tell that she had totally given up and was ready to be gone and now she is fighting with herself over working anything out. She told me last night that I really have no idea how close she was a month ago to leaving, finding somewhere to live, and then sending for the kids and their stuff. That is hard to come back from. 

She now dreads coming home because of all of the emotion flying around the house. She is scared that I am either going to carry on being wonderful until she lets her guard down and then go back to being my old self or that I am going to start a four hour long discussion on what she is feeling.

My new goal, no discussions about anything involving us. We have a MC appointment in 11 days. For a week and a half I am going to carry on around the house and ignore her and her problems. I've contacted an IC today to get me in for the very first appointment that they can. I feel that if I can get someone on the outside to hear me then I will not feel the need to discuss anything with her. My doc also prescribed me some pills for mild anxiety a couple months ago that I avoided talking so I started those a few nights ago and they really help taking the constant anxious feeling down a couple notches.

I really hope this IC can get me in soon. I really need to unload.


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## Tobyboy

I'm getting a bad feeling on your sitch. Keep digging, either Keith is still in picture or there is someone else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

^ I hope its not Keith Sweat. There's no way I could compete. Guess that was meant for another post.


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## Kolors

In other news, I spoke with a friend yesterday that really set my head straight. Though I feel that I need to make drastic changes in my life to keep my wife, I cannot lose me in the process. I have a pretty badass group of friends that I have lost contact with over the last decade and I need to reconnect and remember who I am.

My female friends feel like my wife is just stuck in depression from having kids, changing jobs, and lack of a strong romantic life. Most pretty much agree that there really isn't anything that I can do to make her better with the exception of giving her time and not pushing any issues.

I signed up with an IC yesterday but my first appointment with him isn't until the day before our first MC appointment. I have offered to set my wife up with an IC but she still maintains that she has no issues in the world other than things I had done in the past.

I am actively working on me, now it is more for the future, with or without her, than anything else. I now know that unless she delves into the things that she is holding on to then there will be no progress. That is much easier on my soul than to believe that I was losing a wife over small things.

On a happy note there was no fighting or sadness at the house last night. We ran through the motions of a typical family, played with the kids in the yard, cooked, cleaned, washed babies, read stories, and then hit the couch. I made sure that anything I did domestically was up to her standards and expectations just to avoid her having anything else to put on me.

I have 13 days to go until our MC appointment and I really do not want her to have anything petty like "He doesn't clean up" or "He should spend more time with the kids" to talk about. Worst comes to worst, I have developed one hell of a good routine. Lets just hope that routine stays at our house, not moves to my new house.


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## BK23

It honestly sounds like all her criticisms of your past behavior are attempts on her part--either consciously or not--to rationalize her feelings and behavior. The way she is treating you and acting is not merited by your past behavior. There's definitely something else going on, whether she knows what it is is another question. 

You walking on eggshells and being super dad/husband is not going to fix anything for you because her dissatisfaction with you/her life is not actually rooted in your past failures in that regard. I'd wait to see if MC helps, but unless she gets a whole lot more introspective/honest quickly, I wouldn't continue torturing myself. I know you love her and your family, but you need to acknowledge that you deserve better than this terrible treatment.


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## Tobyboy

Kolors said:


> ^ I hope its not Keith Sweat. There's no way I could compete. Guess that was meant for another post.


"Yesterday I called her a bit after her denied lunch was to start and she actually answered. When I asked what she was up to she started with "Just sitting here". After a little prodding it became, "I'm sitting at a restaurant with Keith, he managed to come into town to see everyone one last time." I blew it off to her like it was no big deal, asked her whatever question I had for it, wished he a good day, and back to the office I went."-----your written words!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

BK23 said:


> It honestly sounds like all her criticisms of your past behavior are attempts on her part--either consciously or not--to rationalize her feelings and behavior. The way she is treating you and acting is not merited by your past behavior. There's definitely something else going on, whether she knows what it is is another question.
> 
> You walking on eggshells and being super dad/husband is not going to fix anything for you because her dissatisfaction with you/her life is not actually rooted in your past failures in that regard. I'd wait to see if MC helps, but unless she gets a whole lot more introspective/honest quickly, I wouldn't continue torturing myself. I know you love her and your family, but you need to acknowledge that you deserve better than this terrible treatment.


That's kind of my assumption. I know she has some issues from her early years (family break up, extremely weak family situation, possible molestation, stayed in custody of her mother who never treated her like a daughter) that she has never dealt with. She has told me a few things in the last month that even I had not heard in the 12 years that we have been together. 

I am really starting to believe that she is not healthy and I am the easiest thing to project it onto. Maybe its the Xanax keeping my anxiety down now so I can clearly think but I feel as though I have owned up to my part in all of this.

I hope that her seeing me go to IC and arranging MC that she will feel comfortable finding an IC for herself so she can unload and reboot. It is also making it so much easier on me to realize that the blame isn't all mine.


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## Kolors

Tobyboy said:


> "Yesterday I called her a bit after her denied lunch was to start and she actually answered. When I asked what she was up to she started with "Just sitting here". After a little prodding it became, "I'm sitting at a restaurant with Keith, he managed to come into town to see everyone one last time." I blew it off to her like it was no big deal, asked her whatever question I had for it, wished he a good day, and back to the office I went."-----your written words!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



lol I forgot that I had used a fake name there. I've done about all the digging possible and there is just nothing really there. She was simply trying to avoid hearing me ***** about her constantly running around with people instead of handling her normal business. The conversation happened about inappropriate comments being made and that bit is over. 

She is also not tech savvy by any means. I have read every text between her and this person in particular going back like three years. Aside from the three comments that really pissed me off, it has never been remotely sexual or flirty. There have never been weird calls in the middle of the night or anything to that effect. The only times that they have even really communicated heavily were two times that his wife acted crazy and tried to run off with their kids. Even then, the conversations were always about "Did you find her or the kids?" or "So and so said to call this lawyer."

Yes they are still speaking but I think it was twice since he was in town. One was that his wife grabbed his kids again and left the state, the other was about him finding a lawyer and to tell everyone here to keep a lookout for his soon to be ex.

As much as I had hoped to snoop and find something that would allow me to just push her out and fight to keep the kids if it came down to that, it just simply isn't there. It is a long distance friendship that pops up for a few days here and there and then goes away for six months at a time.


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## Kolors

bah, and out the door she goes!

Bring home flowers tonight, make a bit of dinner, she has a couple beers before she gets here and all hell breaks loose.

I messed up and told her that we needed her and gave her flowers. She told me that the family only wanted her to be their maid. There was really no coming back from that point. She kept on about how she needed space to figure it all out and how I won't give it to her.

I asked, once again, what kind of space she needed and all she could say is that she doesn't know. I asked about separating and me staying in our other house and she said she didn't want to hurt my feelings and feel like she broke the family up. I asked if she just wanted to divorce and be through with it and she still said she didn't know but she was through doing whatever we are doing now.

I finally told her that if she wasn't willing to fight for it at some point then it would all be a waste of time. No amount of talks or reading or counseling would fix any of it as long as she was determined to not let any of the past go. She screamed something about fine she would fix it, then broke some stuff, grabbed her keys and purse, and out the door she went.

She called an hour later to let me know that Id be lucky if I saw her again this weekend and that was that.

So, its just me and the kids. Its quiet but lonely.


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## Keepin-my-head-up

Really?
Maybe the flowers triggered some kind of guilt.
Not saying she is cheating on you, 
I think her mind is made up about leaving you but the guilt and the fact that she knows the kids will be taken care of when she wants a weekend to herself is keeping her there.

In the end tho, I'm just am outside pair of eyes reading a story trying to find the hints and clues.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Well, she came by and swapped vehicles last night and is apparently staying at a girlfriends house .
She is trying to get away to clear her head and see if she honestly wants to give us a shot without pressure from me and the kids. I hate it because the 15 month old is already up asking for mama and the four year old will have a breakdown when mommy isn't at soccer today.

When she came by to give me the car with the baby set in it I heard her telling her friend "hurry hurry he's going to come out." When I did 
, calm and collected as could be her friend looked suprised, like she expected me to be crazed or violent. I offered her some cash and told her she could run inside and pack a bag while I waited outside and she declined. She actually looked afraid like I was going to grab her and force her inside or something 
.

I told her friend about an issue with the truck, told them to have a good weekend, and went back inside to the kids. 

I'm really starting to think that my wife has some issues that she needs help with. She has been prescribed antidepressants but never took them and has no idea how she became so upset but just feels like she needs to run. There is nothing I can do for her, she really just needs to get her hear on straight and make some decisions. 

I really hope that I'm wrong about all this and she comes home Sunday.with her head on straight and ready to do something.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anuvia

Your wife has been emotionally manipulating and blackmailing you.


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## AVR1962

Sounds me me like your wife got tired of dealing with your lack of engagement with her and the children and she finally decided to live her life and find what she needs to make her feel good. You say it took all this time to open up to her, that is a problem. You closed yourself off to her and yet she was supposed to understand it was due to your depression? She was willing to help you seek help but the life she lived sounded very lonely. I would suggest counseling for yourself. Sorry to hear about your mom. Instead of alienating your wife you should have incorporated her into your feelings and what you were dealing with. 

Your story sounds alot like me and my husband, not sure his issues are about depression, but he is very cold and does not talk. When there is a lack of interaction between couples the relationship dies and we have a choice to die with it or find a way to survive. Your wife has chose to survive. If she meets this man it is not about sex, it is about getting her needs met....someone to talk to, someone to laugh with, someone to feel wanted by and possibly shared interests. That may or may not lead to something else but her priority is about getting that feel good feeling, that's how we get our needs met. You have not provided that so she seek it from someone else, plain and simple.


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## Kolors

^ Kinda simular but not. I am not cold or don't talk, I just keep all of my stuff inside instead of talking about it. I am actually quite friendly and outgoing. I did however fail to give my wife what she needed and it did create resentment. Tons of resentment.

One of our biggest issues has been that we never really sit down and talk about anything of importance and that we are both typically so busy with life that our conversations are quite short and to the point. It also did not help that her experience in life had been limited to a few hours of work each day and several hours a day of contact with pretty much noone but the kids.

As it turns out, this weekend has really helped to calm her down. She came back on Sunday morning and things have been shockingly normal ever since. 

She did clue me into a few things this weekend. She "happened" to be at the house grabbing a change of clothes when the kids and I returned from soccer. The kids were incredibly happy to see her, they had never had a night where she was not home. I told her that we were running to a festival for the day then going to another families house to watch a football game that evening and she was welcome to come. She declined because she knew that we would end up in some sort of discussion about our relationship and it would just ruin the evening. She hung out while I made the kids lunch and got them changed for the day. During our conversation, which was drama free, she finally told me that she felt like she has having some sort of breakdown and just needed some room to think without a husband or children needing her constantly. She went on to tell me that she just needed a few days to relax and sort things out in her head and not have to fight through emotions and drama at home.

She also brought up a point that I had not thought about. She had not had a night or weekend away from the house since around 2003. I cannot say why she hasn't went anywhere but she has typically been a homebody and spent a majority of her time, until our first kid was born four years ago, at home playing video games or traveling with me. I tend to spend time each month traveling for work and I also take overnight or weekend trips a few times a year with the guys to festivals or conventions that she has no interest in. 

Seeing how a couple days "mostly" away from the house reinvigorated her I hope she takes a few nights away more often. I told her that she should make it a point to take some trips with her friends, even if it is overnight to do some shopping or concerts in another town. The kids need to adjust better to her not being home sometimes and she needs time to be herself with her friends.

She spent Saturday night at a girlfriends house again and came home Sunday AM. As far as I am aware of, everything was on a more steady path at the house. We hung out all morning, did a birthday party and some shopping in the afternoon. I noticed that it seemed like we were both on our best behavior all day and we clicked really well, unlike the last month or so. In the evening we grilled out, put the kids in bed, and settled in to watch some TV and relax. 

Amazingly, no discussions of feelings or drama came up all day. It was kinda exciting to hear her have stories about her weekend since she rarely has anything to talk about other than the normal workday stuff. We even confirmed that the trip and counseling in less than two weeks are a go. We also confirmed that we are much better doers than sayers. We plan to not discuss the hurt feelings and emotions for a while and just focus on being normal again. Hopefully we can slowly work on the underlying issues through the counseling while not beating each other up with words in the meantime.


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## BK23

Your wife is treating you like sh!t. 

How much of this will you take before YOU need space and want to move on?

Is this relationship really worth salvaging?


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## Kolors

BK23 said:


> Your wife is treating you like sh!t.
> 
> How much of this will you take before YOU need space and want to move on?
> 
> Is this relationship really worth salvaging?


Good question. 

If progress is made between us then a much longer time than if we go back to fighting about nonsense every third day. Who knows, we may hit a few counseling sessions and realize that we are wasting our time or that we are still madly in love deep down inside but too hurt to properly express it. We both know that there is a finite amount of time that each of us are willing to work to make a better marriage and family. I expect the worst of it is behind us now, but with any attempts to fix a marriage I am sure it can go south again. I'll stay positive and just be me, I have no control over anyone else.

Also, a lot of good has come out of the last few months. I have reconnected with many old friends and begun to socialize with people that I had forgotten about. I have actually become a more attentive person in general, with my wife, my friends, and my co-workers. I know I have become a more active father. My health is also so much better as I am properly medicated and supplemented, as well as the 20 lbs that I have dropped in the last two months. So worst gets to worst, I am physically and mentally way better off than I was just a few months ago. 

As for space, I have plenty of it. I have always been free to come and go as I please. I am going out with an old friend tomorrow night and hooking up with people on Thursday to play some tabletop games. She is also going to work on Friday night to have more cash to take to Disney in 10 days so Ill have all the room I want that night as well. The one that does not get enough space is my wife and I am trying to get her to start creating space for herself so she doesn't feel like she has to over do it when she does manage to leave the house for an evening.


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## BK23

Glad to hear that you're in a good place with the changes you've been making. I'm rooting for you, but I get the nagging sense that your wife is not being honest with you about what is really fueling her "breakdown." 

It's probably too much time on this board, but if I were you I would probably conduct a bit of surveillance to gain some more insight into what is actually going on and why she is behaving this way.


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## Kolors

Yea, I've noticed that everything seems to go back to "OMGZ HE/SHE IS CHEATING ON YOU!" but my wife simply isn't doing that at all. I would have gladly struck out if that were the case without so much as an argument. And yes, I've done a lot of digging through phone records, texts, FB, and emails, it simply isn't there. What i did catch in texts was me being replaced as the person that she went to for emotional attachment and a little flirting from a friend of ours that lives 8 states away (which she did talk to and explain that it was over the line and had to stop, also the flirtatious texts were all send on his part.)

She works with several of my friends (including my best man!) and hangs out with the same group on the rare occasions that she goes out. There is really no way that something sneaky was going on.

It all boils down to two people being together for a long time and taking each other for granted, mostly me not showing her the respect or appreciation that she feels like she deserved. 

Like I said, I hope it all works out, if not it will be quite sad but I don't want to leave anything on the table if it goes that route.


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## BK23

I don't necessarily think she's having affair, but you absolutely don't have an accurate or honest account of what is actually going on with her. It could be a midlife crisis, it could be a chemical issue, it could be yearning for someone else, but she hasn't shared it with you. Her behavior just doesn't jive with her explanation.


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## Kolors

Yea I'm sort of working off that checklist as we go. Some of my female friends blamed her issues on hormones that have not adjusted since the baby.
I've suggested going and getting a whole work up but she was still putting it all on me. I am sure there has or had to be a want for someone else, I just do not believe that it was a person that she knows as much as a fictitious man who she could meet in the future. Come to think of it, she had started reading romance novels every night a few weeks before this all started.

I can only hope that whatever she has going in inside is either passing on its own or therapy will slowly draw it out. 

I did find some texts earlier explaining to friends that she was home again and was waiting to see how everything goes with me. I can only assume that she thought I was going to freak out about her being out over the weekend or continue to sit around and try to talk out problems to death again. She gave me the rundown of her weekend ( lots of wine and girlfriends), we laughed most of it off, and we moved on about our weekend. If we get along today, it will make the first time in almost two months that've have been stable for three days in a row. Lucky for me it's a kids sports night and the I have work to do after we get home so there will be minimal dead time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

On a positive (not optimistic) note I received two daytime calls from her today, which is quite unusual. Apparently she can make short calls from her new job and no one seems to care.

I also asked her to dinner on the night before our anniversary. I know that sounds silly but our last few nights out have turned into total busts. Either the dinner and service were lousy or we ran out of things to talk about an hour into the evening and went home. This will be our 10th wedding anniversary and hopefully not our last. The day before we have our first MC appointment and the day after we leave for 7 days at Disney World. The MC and Dinner will really set the pace for our vacation and the 9 hour drive there. 

I plan to make it a simple evening, dinner somewhere that cannot fail and a walk around the lake in the quiet. I really have no expectations what so ever other than not having drama and making sure to stay engaged with her the entire evening. We really do need to date again, I am kinda excited.


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## Kolors

Felt I should bang out a daily update. I hope to get rid of this thread one day soon and put one over in the reconciliation forum.

Each afternoon starts out mildly awkward around our house. I believe that she still thinks that today will be the day that things go back to how they were or that I plan to start some deeply emotional conversation about who knows what that will only end in drama and lost sleep. I totally get where she is at. She is also finally catching up on sleep and starting to be less worn out physically. 

Once we all start to relax things fall back into a healthy routine. Dinner has become pleasant again. We listen to music and actually speak to each other and the children. Our 4 year old is still a little testy at the dinner table but really aren't they all? I am going to start teaching them a second language while we hang out at the table at night. She had expressed some interest in it a couple months ago and the children are at that age where they soak up knowledge like sponges.

The rest of our evening has begun to be like clockwork. I wash the boy, she washes the girl. I do the boys bottle and story, she reads to our daughter. We meet up in the den at 8:15ish and relax. We both read our emails and FB then either do something together, like a board game or video game, or we turn on some mindless TV and enjoy some meaningless conversation. 

Though this is much like where we were a few months ago before all of this started, things are very much different. She is no longer stomping through the house from 8:30-9:30 cleaning and washing clothes. I am no longer retiring to my office after dinner to avoid hearing all the loundness that is my family. She is no longer washing two kids then passing the baby off to me to bottle and put to sleep in my office chair. We are at least in the same room at the end of the night to relax and in the same bed every nigh to sleep.

I also received a gift card for dinner from the parents of the soccer team I coached this session and the wife remarked that it would great to use it for our anniversary dinner. I was kinda happy that she made any sort of reference to that night. I promptly booked a sitter (the first one ever) for next Friday evening and I am actually looking forward to a date with the wife.

5 days so far without any emotional discussions or fighting. 7 days until IC, 8 days until MC, and 10 days until our 10th wedding anniversary and our family trip. Life is a blur right now! I need to slow down and watch it before it all blows past me.


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## Oblivious2678

Definitely have to refrain from the emotional conversations and don't bring it up at all. It sucks to have to ignore it right now, but it's the best thing for everyone to not mention it and let things settle down. When both of you are stronger and she brings it up, then it can be addressed. I'm in the same boat. There are times when I want to ask where the heck are we, but I look back at the timeline I mentioned yesterday and realize again we still have months to go most likely...but we're getting there.


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## Kolors

Yea, even though I am trying to stay out of the whole debate about where we, actually she, is in this thing she still has a lot of pent up frustration.

We had a mini blow up last night over buying another family car. I have a extended cab truck, she has a SUV, and I have a small car that I inherited when my mother died 2 years ago. Until this school year started, I drove the little car. It is a 10 mile round trip from my home to my office and that car gets like 35MPG so it was perfect for my needs. My wife drove the SUV, dropped both kids off at daycare, went to work, then picked up the kids from daycare. The timing worked perfect for her and allowed me some flexibility as to when I arrived and left my office. Since she started a new job and now our daughter goes to school about three minutes from that job we have swapped vehicles. I now drive the SUV (which she calls hers) and she is driving my truck. I also own an old pathfinder 4X4 which is more of a fun project than anything else.

Last night I noticed her doing some car shopping on a site I had never seen before so I leaned over and asked her about it. Before I even knew what was going on the conversation turned into how she has asked me to buy a bigger and safer family vehicle for the last four years but I have refused or ignored her. Then about how I personally own three vehicles, none of which she considers both safe and big enough for the family. I'm not even sure what happened but the next thing I know she is staring at FB while just shredding me about the whole issue and how she wants to go back to driving her SUV.

The first chance I get I try to stop the whole conversation and reboot it. I told her that I understand that she is still getting out old frustration, but if she wants to come up with a plan to get rid of vehicles and purchase another vehicle. I told her that until she changed jobs I had not felt comfortable getting a car payment since there were months where an emergency or two would cause us to cut it close at the end. I told her that I really get that she is frustrated but I felt like instead of us coming up with some sort of plan she was just trying to be hurtful and mean and I would just like to start the whole thing over, make a plan, and get to work on it.

That pushed the situation into overdrive. Then I got it for always having to have my way and forcing my opinions on her for everything. I mean, I was trying to get her to lay out the steps that we need to take, how is that getting my way! Once I asked her to calm down and that it wasn't what I was doing she totally lost her ****. She started hysterically crying, telling me to get away, and went to the bedroom. I stayed calm, walked back to the room and told her that I was unsure why she was so upset but I honestly had just wanted to take the conversation back to step #1 and come up with a plan, not tell her how things would be. She told me to leave the room again so I walked down the hall until she calmed down a bit and then I told her that we really needed to solve this because it was just an easy situation that somehow got out of hand.

Once she laid down and I sat on the edge of the bed things seemed to mellow out a bit. I told her that IMO our communication skills are horrible still. That this is the reason why I wanted to avoid any meaningful conversation with her for a few weeks while we just worked on getting along. I asked her exactly what she wanted to do about a different vehicle and she had no real plan other than just going out and financing another car, that there is really no way she could pay for on her own. I told her that I would begin selling off vehicles when we returned from vacation and we could use that cash to purchase something more family like ASAP. This seemed like the start of a good game plan. 

I also brought up the trust issue with her. She told be before that she really never trusts what I say because I tend to take on too many projects and things fall to the wayside. She also didn't trust that I was capable of changing some of my habits and improving my life. She didn't believe that I would put out the effort to get vehicles sold and to get a new vehicle without her having to continually push me and believed that something else would come up and I would totally move on without another thought of the situation.

I ran down a list of promises that I had made over the last few months and asked her to point out anything that I had promised that did not come true. She had nothing. I asked here if there were even things that I mentioned that I would take care of that did not pan out, again everything had been taken care of. I then told her that trust and respect were the foundations of what we were trying to repair and she had to start looking at now instead of then. If she continues to start each day looking at stuff that happened 5 or 10 years ago, things will never improve. If she takes time to live in the here and now, she will see that she is loved and respected, and can take me for a man of my word.

It seemed to calm things down. We had a brief little talk and she went to sleep. I went into the living room to research selling off the cars and found something I wasnt expecting in her web browser as I started to type. "How do I fall in love with my husband again." We do love each other, that has not been the issues at all. In love is where we are lacking. The great part is, this search was done on Monday, the day after she returned from taking a few days away to think. It appears that she is at least leaning towards repairing the marriage than destroying it. 

I put the first vehicle up for sale last night on FB in case a friend needs it. I'm going to get it detailed this weekend and put it on craigslist where it should sell pretty fast. Just need to stick to it and keep proving that I am to be trusted.


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## Oblivious2678

I get that a lot too. The 'you never do what you say you're gonna do', or 'we've been together 10 years and you haven't figured that out yet?' crap. The best advice I can give you is when she starts on the attack, you have to agree and back away. Right now, you are the bad guy in her eyes. There is nothing you can do to change her mind on that right now. If you try to prove her wrong, you will only make things 10x worse. Let her vent. Let her get it out of her system. She's testing you right now and to be honest, you are failing.

Hang in there and keep focusing on you and the kids. Let her do her thing to heal herself and don't fall for her bait.


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## BK23

Acceding to her insane demand isn't going to fix anything, it's just going to make you miserable. Your wife is acting insane. This isn't about family cars, this isn't about what you did a decade ago. 

Have you looked at resources concerning Borderline Personality Disorder? Your wife sounds like classic BPD.


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## Kolors

It really doesn't make me more miserable, but I know when this one is fixed something else will become the focus. If I get another vehicle then next it will be how she wanted the windows replaced on the house three years ago. After we finished the car discussion last night it started to move into what I was going to do about doing new tile in our bathroom and when I planned to do that.

I hope that through MC she can get moved into some IC. I plan to get her hooked up at the place where I am going to start IC to "just give her an outside person to vent to" though I feel like it is more than just a case of depression or unhappiness with me. She has historically not looked forward to anything out of fear of being let down and never gets excited over things because she knows something will ruin it before it happens or that it wont live up to its hype.

I also realize that all of this change that I am making in me will help in the future, with or without her.


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## Oblivious2678

A pessimistic attitude is definitely grounds for depression and could be a mid0life crisis moment too. I know I've done wrong, but after stepping back and taking a look at the big picture, I noticed that not only is my situation battling what I went through with my father's illness/death, which snowballed into my behavior, but I'm dealing with her going through pre-menopause and potentially a mid-life crisis (her comment 2 months ago about how she's still young and wants to be happy). I love this time in our lives/marriages. YIKES!!


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## Kolors

I am about to run out and buy a Ford Explorer today just to kill that argument. I found a used one for a really good deal and if I sold my other cars I could basically pay it off in a couple months. Already have someone out today trying to get financing to purchase my old car lol.

Id like to buy it just to prove that things are just smoke and mirrors for other problems.


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## Oblivious2678

Remember, the more you try to prove her wrong, the more fuel you will add to the fire. Be careful.


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## Kolors

Oh totally, I understand that. This is one for the home team though. I could just let it go, which I should, but this is on her apparent list of stuff that she has been holding in for a while.

Will it solve anything? Not really.


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## Kolors

Yay an update!

Really, there is nothing to update. I'm at home with the kids tonight and she picked up a shift at her old job for some extra spending cash for our vacation. It does kinda suck that she changed jobs right as a pay period started so she will not see her first check for pretty much a month. 

She did remind me today to cancel the health insurance with my company for all of us because hers is now effective for us. I told her before that I really was not comfortable with that due to the spot we are in, so maybe shes going to stick around at least until the next open enrollment (lol)!

When we met over a decade ago my wife was a bartender and I was a chef at a nearby restaurant. I got used to never seeing her at night since she would get home about 4 or 5 AM and I would usually be passed out. She has worked maybe 4 nights in the last 6 years and now I am totally anxious when she does. I guess I have become so used to her being home (which is part of our problem) that I don't remember what I used to do when she was away.

I received a confirmation call from our MC for our appointment on Monday today. Too bad it was supposed to be for Thursday. Oh, and they have no therapists that work past 5pm on Thursday so we have to find someone else to go. I called around and finally found a place that will see us Nov 7th. I am kinda happy that it was put off until we get back from vacation. Id rather work on just getting along and enjoying ourselves than spend a week thinking about whatever good or bad advice our counselor gave us. I've heard some real horror stories about first time MC appointments and not getting what you bargained for. Nothing I would love more than to have a 10 hour drive with someone that a counselor just told was in an irreparable relationship. I Really do believe that she is trying to make it work and she believes that my changes are leaning towards permanent.

As for the new vehicle, we were 15 mins late arriving so they were closed. It also sold today before I could get there on my lunch break. We are going tomorrow morning to look at a few vehicles so that should be fun. She loves car shopping. 

She has plans to take our kids to the park with a friend for the afternoon tomorrow and I have a friend coming over to play dorky tabletop games. Who knows what the rest of the weekend holds. I hope it is relaxed conversation, some board games, and maybe no fighting.


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## Kolors

No better and no worse over the weekend. I did however get laid off from my job of 12 years this morning so that is a pretty big downer. I did receive six weeks of severance so I at least have time for our vacation and then to do some hard searching.

A guy that I have known for years called me after he heard that I was laid off and offered to let me work at his place for cash on the side while I did the whole job search. Cash from there plus my tiny unemployment will get me up to about half of my old income. I have another chef friend that wants to get me into the club he works at in the evenings so I can watch the kids during the day and look for jobs. So maybe things will pan out. My wife and I were always happiest when I cooked.

As far as me and the wife, we had another issue Friday evening when she got home later than I thought she was going to be at work. I really have a control issue with her at night. She said she was off work at 11 and was going to have a beer and eat. She finally got home at 1:30 AM because she stayed around and talked to her old work friends. Yes it was friends, no it wasn't a guy on the side, lets not forget that it is a collective group of friends. Anyhow when she got home I tried to just be quiet about it but I still opened my mouth and asked her to just please tell me when she is going to stay out late. I didnt need to know a time but a call with "Hey, I am up here with so and so and just talking and killing time, Ill be home in a couple hours" would be nice. She still feels like I am being nuts about her not coming home when I expect and I still feel like she doesnt respect me when she leaves the house.

Saturday was all good, we hung out in the morning and did breakfast and then her and the daughter went on a play date while me and the son did some shopping and football watching. She came home at 7ish, we fed everyone, put the babies in bed, and then hung out and watched a movie before we went to bed.

Sunday was a bit strange though. We all woke up happy, I got the kids to the table and got food in front of them, threw our food in the oven, and ran to Starbucks to grab a couple coffees. When I got back all hell had broke loose. She was upset, the kids were upset and I was totally lost. Somehow it became a conversation about us and our issues, who knows how. We ended up in the car going to pick up something and the kids fell asleep. We took that chance to have another talk about where we stood, for the 100th time, and our expectations if things didnt work out.

After we got the kids in bed we sat down and had a real conversation about guidelines for our relationship and a realistic timeline. We decided that we would keep up the counseling and working on our marriage for now. If things do not show signs of improvement by June we would go ahead and separate. If things are worked out, we will sell the house and move to somewhere to start over. We would swap full weeks with the kids, pay off all the bills since we really owe noone anything, and split whatever cash is in the joint acct 50/50. I do believe that this struck a nerve with her because I had never actually acknowledged the chance of a split or divorce.

We ended up in the kitchen having conversations about things that had went wrong and how we should have fixed them. We pretty much agreed that we needed to do a total reboot on our marriage to save it. It felt good that we were finally being so honest about everything. Two months of fighting have gotten nowhere but a few days of heart to hearts have helped.

Now if she doesn't leave me just for being unemployed now Ill be happy. I got a call from a friend that owns a restaurant that was begging me to come cook for him for cash under the table so it doesnt effect my severance or unemployment. Hopefully that offsets the hit a bit and lets me focus on something new for a while.

Here's to Monday, its all new now.


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## MrK

She hit the bars again. You're downplaying this. You know why bars are the number one place for married gals to go to party with strange men? Because their husbands are "cool with it". 

Spy, man. She goes out enough. It shouldn't take long.

And check your other thread in General. I put a lot of time into a barhopping at meat markets timeline.


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## Lovemytruck

Kolors,

I am concerned on how you are hoping to deal with all of this. 

It kills me to see you strongly defend her against the idea that she is cheating.

Last post for me, and I hope it is not offensive to you.

The CLASSIC red flags of betrayal are shown in spades by what you are posting.

I know you are too smart to let this happen. You have looked, and there is no evidence as far as you are concerned.

From the outside looking in there is classic blameshifting, hiding the truth, acting outside of the norm, no boundries for her, etc.

She had a nerve struck when you talked about seperation because she had never realized that you actually had a limit. Now she is a tiny bit nervous because if you ever do find out what she is doing late at night, you might leave her. She has previously assumed that you would NEVER leave even if she was cheating.

Mr. K and I are making this point, much as someone yelling at you that your house is on fire. Ignore it if you chose.

I feel so utterly horrible for the pain you will discover one day. I say this because I walked in your shoes.

I honestly hope this did not come off as offensive. Thanks for taking the time to read it. It sucks when people give you bad news.


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## BK23

Affair or no affair, I don't see the appeal of this woman other than inertia and security for the kids.

She's treating you terribly. Do you really need 8 more months of this crap?


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## Kolors

The appeal of this woman is that I love her dearly and I messed up what we had. Aside from the last couple months we had a pretty decent relationship and were planning to grow old together. Things weren't ever perfect but we worked well together. 

The time until June is really for us either get us fixed or get away from each other. We have everything line up in case it doesn't work out and we had made a plan to pay off all of our debts in that time. 

I still maintain that she isn't out having an affair unless she is doing it directly in front of my best friends, in her own place of employment, while working for one of our friends. It has nothing to do with someone else, or at least someone who she calls, emails, texts, or sees at her job. She also hasn't been sneaking out at night or making secret rendezvous between 7:25AM when she leaves the house and 8:00am when she gets to work. The affair angle is just impossible, there would be evidence somewhere. I don't have to follow her, every time she said she was somewhere it has checked out, with my people, not sketchy friends of her own. She said she was at the bar until 1:00AM, there is a hit on our bank account for 13.83 right about that time.

I know it is hard to believe that this is purely an emotional breakdown between us but that is simply what it is. She says that she has tried to tell me for a while and I just ignore it. I have asked her several times if there was an affair because if there was we could divorce now with now questions asked and she denies it. Ive asked if there is even anyone that she has had her eye on and she denies that as well.

Being laid off today was more than likely the final straw though. At least I had a really good job and a strong income with benefits to prop me up, not I honestly have nothing. Everything that I had a few months ago is gone. Aside from my children I have nothing left to really keep me going.


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## MrK

Tail her at the bars. You WILL be surprised. I can guarantee that. I'll leave you alone now.


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## Kolors

My best friend has watched her at the bar. It also isnt bars, we aren't in a large city. I just explained that in the other thread.


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## Tobyboy

With so many red flags....everyone is suspect....even your best friend!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

HA, he wishes. Even on my wife's most desperate night she wouldnt do him.

I believe he has been with 1 woman ever and hes 38?


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## Tobyboy

Kolors said:


> HA, he wishes. Even on my wife's most desperate night she wouldnt do him.
> 
> I believe he has been with 1 woman ever and hes 38?


Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Kulors,

With all respect, all the relationship talk is destructive to... your relationship. Talk just reduces her respect for you. Action is what counts.

You lost weight. How much more until you have a flat stomach? Are you taking all sorts of live style medications? Get in shape. If you are unemployed. You have time to work out.

Chefs have tough life style. Cut way back on the alcohol so that you think at your best.

No married woman should be out late a night without her husband socializing and drinking when her marriage is going down the tubes. Everyone warns you about this. Since she is threatening to leave you, meeting some new guy who pops up can happen easily.

Don't argue and bicker about her late evenings. You have create consequences.

Good luck finding work. Your comment about getting along when you work as a chef is insightful. Do you know why she is more attracted to you when you a the boss in the kitchen? Obviously chef is a macho profession. Are you self confident when you are in charge in that environment? If so you need to transfer that attitude to other parts of your life.

Read Bagdon's thread. Read GutPunch.

If your wife is going to leave you, instead waiting for her to drop the hammer, get all the papers in order. Go 180 on her and give her the D she wants. At that point you have to fake that you don't care. You have to smile be happy, not bitter. Fake it till you make it. If she gets shaken by how easy it is for you to get over her, she may be attracted to you.

Don't revert to being needy the moment your 180 starts to work. It works best the first time when you are trying get her attention. Don't say I love you. Don't get lots brotherly hugs and sexless kisses.

Do you smoke or have any bad habits that make you seem weak or unattractive? Drop them cold turkey. Your life is in the balance. Take control. By being on top of yourself you will be able to offer your wife security.

Losing your job came at a bad time but put a good face on. Work your way out of this situation.


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## Kolors

Nope, I don't drink anymore and I stopped smoking three years ago. Over the last year I have dropped about 50lbs and have about 30 to go to be in shape again.

I am however on a blood pressure medicine and I think it was only due to the stress at my old job as well as the stress with my wife. Other than that I take a B Vitamin because testing showed I was low on B-12 and Krill Oil since heart disease runs in the family.

We did agree that the relationship talk was over last night. It wasn't the usual unhealthy talk that we had in the past, it was actual constructive rebuilding types of conversations. A lot of rediscovering each other and how our likes and dislikes had changed over the years. None of it was "OMGZ DONT LEAVE ME" or "I HATE YOU IM OUT" kinda stuff. If she brings up the conversation we talk but I am through with starting anything. Hopefully we can get it out in counseling and make progress.

I do see the truth in shaking her up. The talk last night really seemed to and we were honest from that point on. She left to go talk to her best friend tonight and I didn't bother asking if or when she would be home. I did call her at our daughters bed time since my daughter was sad that mommy wasn't home to say goodnight. She at least talked to her which is all that I cared about.

When she gets home I plan to not even speak of any of it. I would like to work on our finances for the time being seeing as my pay was roughly 80% of our income but that may have to wait.


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## Keepin-my-head-up

Maybe you should start going out.
Just to get your mind elsewhere.

You may not like the idea but you probably need it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BK23

How are you holding up?


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## Kolors

Keepin-my-head-up said:


> Maybe you should start going out.
> Just to get your mind elsewhere.
> 
> You may not like the idea but you probably need it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I go out, but it's always early. I really don't enjoy being out late all that often. I think I landed a sous chef job that will start in a couple weeks so that will put me out late anyway. At least it's money until I can land another desk job with benefits.

Update on the wife, she seems to be realizing that this pretty much all hangs on her now. I feel like she was trying to push the issue with me and this going out late thing until I stopped caring. I'm sure she will try it again in a few weeks and in just going to go to bed at 10 and forget about it. I found out that I was pissing her off saying things like "we could go up to the cabin this spring" since that makes her feel like I am ignoring how upset she is. She is the se way with touch, the more I touch her the more she feels like I think that everything is ok already. I actually asked a female friend of mine who is in a similar situation and she agreed with my wife and that I need to back off that stuff for a while. We haven't however had a big fight in a while so that's a plus of some sort.

I have my first IC appointment today, in 40 mins actually. I am going to go work for cash at a friends restaurant until we leave for vacation Saturday.

Can't wait to see how today turns out. Wishing myself luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Well new work was different, it really isn't what I want to be stuck doing but I am thankful for the pay. Met my IC this morning. He asked me why I was there and I blabbed pretty solid for 40 mins. He said he had never seen Someone in my situation so calm. Usually it's angry and finger pointing. He thinks that my wife needs help more then I do just from my story, but I am sure if she told my her side it would be totally different. Since this was the first trip we really didn't get into much, just covered the basics.

I have to go back and clean out my old office tonight so I am not looking forward to that. When I get back eh wife and I are supposed to finish all the planning for what we are doing each day. She usually gets frustrated with me while we are planning things so I am going to just nudge her on plans instead of taking over. We are also still on for our anniversary dinner Friday. It will more than likely be the saddest meal I have eaten In a while. It will be our 10th and maybe last anniversary dinner. 

Time To pick up the kids and run home. Here's to the night being peaceful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BK23

Hang in there, Kolors. I think the IC is going to do you a world of good.


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## Kolors

Thanks! My next session isn't since I thought I would have to be there before 9AM due to a part time job I picked up, but it appears that I have managed to pick up a full time job already starting when I get back from vacation and I won't have to be at work until like 1 or 2 pm each day.

We have a MC appointment set up for the Thursday after we return from vacation which should be interesting. My wife fears that we will have some sort of fallout while at Disney and she won't be able to do anything but stand there and be miserable. She knows that when I was suffering from anxiety I would get sorta, well anxious, and my patience was quite thin. Luckily I have got past that. My game plan for Disney is to be nothing but patient with her and the children, not complain about anything at all, and to just be happy for the kids. Hopefully after the first day or two she will let the guard down and have full blown fun with us as well.

I have also learned something new about my wife this week. Where I retain the good memories of events she tends to focus on the bad. For instance, I lost enough weight to get back into a shirt from three years ago that she picked out the first time we stayed away from home without the baby. I had a good laugh remembering the movie that we saw, the place we had dinner, the drunken shopping trip, and the amazing night once we returned to the room. She said "oh the trip where our moms got into an argument with each other over what time they were each watching the baby and then the car battery was dead the next morning?" I really am starting to believe that she may just be incapable of real happiness. I hope our MC suggests some IC for her. She claims that I am the only issue but, like my IC said today, it seems that she is projecting all of her frustration in life on me.

Man I felt better just writing that.

Anyhow, time to knock the kids out for the night and sign up for our fast passes for Disney. We got a set of those cool RF bracelets that they are testing out that allow us to go ahead and book ride times, act as a room key, keep track of our meals, and "enhance" some rides.


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## lenzi

I read the entire thread for the very first time right up to this post. I'm still waiting for you to say you've found out that she's cheating on you.

Its going to happen. 

I'd bet half your next unemployment check on it.


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## Kolors

Lol 130 bucks!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Yay for part time jobs. I forgot what it was like to not have a desk job again. Now I can't wait to hit another desk. If anything I could use sitting down all day so I could quit losing weight so fast from the stress of life. I have gone from 238 in August to 212 now. All total I have lost 52lbs over the last year with diet and exercise getting me down to 238, then its just been stress and not eating that have done the rest. My goal was to be under 200lbs before the year is up, I bet I make it.

So I found out tonight that apparently my wife has felt as though she has been giving me an inch even though I've wanted a mile. Here I was this whole time thinking that she could give a damn about any effort that I had been putting in. 

I apparently messed tonight up by making a post on FB about selling my moms car off today. One of the things that my wife wanted me to do was to get rid of some of my vehicles and purchase a new car. She saw it as some sort of attention grab and that I was just out to have people feel sorry for me. I sort of lost my sh!t over that. I walked into the room as she saw my post, from several hours earlier, and she made some snide comment as she slammed her laptop shut, totally didnt see me walk in. Downhill it went. For some reason, we can never just solve the one issue, it has to devolve into a discussion about everything!

Tonight we almost canceled the trip that we are leaving for on Saturday, which honestly we are kinda stupid for doing it since I could put that cash in the bank just in case I do not find a great job in the next few months. All that happened while we were packing bags.

The evening ended with too much talking and no real action other than her stating that she thought she had given me some acknowledgement of my work around here and the change in my attitude. I've really seen little to none of either.

As she went to bed I made a deal with her. Neither of us will bring up our relationship, old problems, or emotional baggage until our Nov 7th MC appointment. We will also avoid purposely doing things to provoke the other that we know cause drama. We are talking 14 days of just being pleasant or at least tolerable. I find it hard to believe that it could be possible but we will see.

Her misery starts each day on her ride home according to her because she just knows that it is only a matter of time before we get in a discussion that leads to nowhere. My misery starts when she walks in the door and just looks like she is ready to run.

Avoidance, its whats for dinner!


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## Keepin-my-head-up

Kolors said:


> Yay for part time jobs. I forgot what it was like to not have a desk job again. Now I can't wait to hit another desk. If anything I could use sitting down all day so I could quit losing weight so fast from the stress of life. I have gone from 238 in August to 212 now. All total I have lost 52lbs over the last year with diet and exercise getting me down to 238, then its just been stress and not eating that have done the rest. My goal was to be under 200lbs before the year is up, I bet I make it.
> 
> So I found out tonight that apparently my wife has felt as though she has been giving me an inch even though I've wanted a mile. Here I was this whole time thinking that she could give a damn about any effort that I had been putting in.
> 
> I apparently messed tonight up by making a post on FB about selling my moms car off today. One of the things that my wife wanted me to do was to get rid of some of my vehicles and purchase a new car. She saw it as some sort of attention grab and that I was just out to have people feel sorry for me. I sort of lost my sh!t over that. I walked into the room as she saw my post, from several hours earlier, and she made some snide comment as she slammed her laptop shut, totally didnt see me walk in. Downhill it went. For some reason, we can never just solve the one issue, it has to devolve into a discussion about everything!
> 
> Tonight we almost canceled the trip that we are leaving for on Saturday, which honestly we are kinda stupid for doing it since I could put that cash in the bank just in case I do not find a great job in the next few months. All that happened while we were packing bags.
> 
> The evening ended with too much talking and no real action other than her stating that she thought she had given me some acknowledgement of my work around here and the change in my attitude. I've really seen little to none of either.
> 
> As she went to bed I made a deal with her. Neither of us will bring up our relationship, old problems, or emotional baggage until our Nov 7th MC appointment. We will also avoid purposely doing things to provoke the other that we know cause drama. We are talking 14 days of just being pleasant or at least tolerable. I find it hard to believe that it could be possible but we will see.
> 
> Her misery starts each day on her ride home according to her because she just knows that it is only a matter of time before we get in a discussion that leads to nowhere. My misery starts when she walks in the door and just looks like she is ready to run.
> 
> Avoidance, its whats for dinner!


Yay!
How much more are you going to take kolors?
Sounds like you are now coming to realize that you have a limit.
Cheating or not, no one deserves to live like that.
Always walking on egg shells, never knowing what will set her off.

Glad to see you are getting some stones back
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Like Ive always said, I don't think it is cheating, I think it is that she is just miserable inside. She says shes been unhappy for a really long time and I know it is impossible for it to be all me.

The worst part is the living on egg shells and really not knowing what will be walking through the door each evening. She told be yesterday that she was OK all the way home but when she walked in she just knew something would go wrong and we would end up a mess.

I am just kind of to the point where I am realizing that my best is never going to be enough. Once I fix one problem there will always be some other problem that she is holding on to. I really hope that I get another job paying well soon, I may have to get out of here before June.


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## Kolors

So I got a call today with a job offer starting Tuesday after we return from Disney. The money isn't great but it is a hell of a lot better than unemployment was going to be. I may end up working two jobs for a while to get me close to where we were comfortable at before. Without counting any side money or tip outs from big parties, I'll be roughly 15k a year under where I was previously. Pretty big hit I would say but still in a much better boat than many. When you consider that as a family we are saving about 7k a year on health insurance now due to it being through my wifes job and who knows how much a year on my not blowing money on lunches I would say at worst I need to make up another 5k or so this year.

On the relationship front, our discussion about not saying or doing things that we know would have negative impacts to our relationship was remembered today by both of us. She even mentioned one time that she needed a second to rephrase something so it was neutral rather than negative. We also kept to the no real discussions about our relationship issues. 

My wife has been interested in going into property management for a while now so she started with a property that I own and handled the lease and paperwork for me. She met the new tenant at the same restaurant/bar that we always end up at, which is also the one where she always stays too late talking to her ex-coworkers. Her original situation gave her enough time time to hang out, say hi to everyone, meet with the tenant, say her goodbyes, then head across town before the daycare closed to pick up our son. I figured that I would show her trust by offering to run and grab our son so she could not rush through closing the deal. I also realized that this would give her a chance to get drunk at 5pm and crap up the whole night! Believe it or not, she wrapped up the deal, said her goodbyes, and headed home. Mind = Blown.

I also told her that I had a HUGE issue with her not answering me when I sent her texts during the day. I see that she sends messages back and forth with her two best friends but my stuff tends to get ignored. She acknowledged it in conversation last night and then today she was actually talkative when I sent her messages.

The other thing that had me nervous was when I got up to get the baby at 3AM today she was asleep. I climbed in the bed and snuggled up with my little guy and he promptly fell asleep. She reached over and held my hand for the first time in two months, something that I had expressed missing. I figured that she was asleep and just didn't know that she had done it. Tonight she mentioned that she was awake from the time he woke up and never went back to sleep. I told her I knew that she was asleep because she rolled over and held my hand until I passed out, she told me that she knew. I left it alone there, really no reason to push any issues.

Who really knows where this thing is going. Every time I buck the hell up and get hard about things she softens up. There has to be a fine line that I am walking and I just can't see it.

Tomorrow is our 10th wedding anniversary. I bought her a new ring several months ago for this years anniversary and she is still wearing it. I picked her up a card today that was as unromantic as I could find and kept the writing inside sincere but not too optimistic. I thanked her for 10 years and sticking around this long through the good and bad. I really do not expect any romance in our relationship at the moment, especially tomorrow as we will be driving from 6PM until 2AM. 

To Saturday: Disney bound, lets hope it isn't disaster bound.


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## LongWalk

Just make sure you keep losing weight

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Kolors

Oh for sure. I had 85 to lose and I've dropped 52 of them. The last bit will be much harder
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

t-minus 3 hours until we hit the road. We had a few roadblocks this morning but nothing that could not be handled.

For some reason we woke up at 5 this morning and I couldnt go back to sleep. I rolled over and told her happy anniversary and she smiled and said it back, whew that dread is out of the way. Then we laid in bed and had some old fashioned snuggle time. Totally unexpected but it made my morning start great.

My wife had picked up a shift this morning waiting tables at an event so she planned to run to the rental place at 7:30 this morning, pay for the vehicle on her card, and then head into work. I had a buddy meeting me at the house and riding up with me to pick the vehicle up at 9. Turns out, the rental store didn't even open till 9! Needless to say this started the situation badly. When she came back at 9, she ran all the way through the paperwork and then realized that the ID in her wallet had expired. They cannot rent you a vehicle on an expired ID so total panic mode started. We raced home in our vehicles and dug around until I remembered where she had had it out last and BAM it was there! I totally thought I had saved the day.

Then we turn back around, head back up, run through the paperwork again and guess what, her CC limit had been reduced lol. We only use a credit card for car rentals so it had not been used in about 10 months and Citi dropped her limit to $300.00. Sigh. Luckily the clerk let us pay cash for the amount over 300 and we both ran out the door, her to work, me to the house to get packed and knock out some fast shopping.

When I got home I grabbed the double stoller out of our SUV and started strapping it to the rack on the rental. Once I finished up I ran inside to get a blanket to put in the back seat so I could install the car seats. I looked down and guess what, my wedding band had fallen off. Sometimes you lose 50 lbs and rings just do not fit the same. She had just told me a few days earlier to stop wearing my band until I got to my goal weight and then have it resized again but I ignored her and it fell off again, who knows where. I called the rental store and it wasnt there, searched my yard on my hands and knees, looked under everything in my house and it was nowhere. After a frantic drive to the rental place to check the parking lot and then to the gas station to check that lot, I came home, looked in the same spot where the stroller had been in our SUV and it was there, in the open, not covered by anything. I had already looked in this spot twice! Needless to say I went straight to the jewelry shop and bought a spacer so now I dont have to worry about that again. 

Now that everything is done and the kids are taking their naps I am going to enjoy a quick 30 mins to myself and then clean up the house one last time before we go.

I hope to only have happy things to post this week if I think to post at all. I really feel that this trip, my new job, and our MC meeting on the 7th are going to set the pace for our marriage working out or ending. I pray it is the former, not the latter.

I-75, here we come.


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## LongWalk

You are doing a good job.


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## Kolors

I hope so. We really have had a good time all week as far as I am aware. The drive was long and boring but everyone stayed in high spirits until we were about an hour from our resort. By that point it became discussions about flying instead of driving and how everyone was hungry and running behind.

Sunday through wendsday afternoon went really well. We hit the parks, rode rides, had tons of pictures taken, and enjoyed ourselves. As I may have posted before, we agreed to not say negative things or to do things to deliberately piss each other off and we both stuck to it. I believe she started to make a comment once but cut herself off and rephrased her comment. I had zero issues with patience with lines or complaints about the parks(which were the things that she dreaded about coming). She semed to check the past at th door and was enjoying the family experience again. Them came this evening!

I am unsure if it was just being tired from going constantly for five days or what but shots were fired today. I can't recall just where things went awry but she teared up at lunch today with no explanation. Our daughter had a bit of an accident on the way to the bathroom and I think that started it. It was a contingency that we had not prepared for. From there on the day was just sort of awkward. I held the baby so she and my daughter could get on a ride with an hour wait, then I booked out dinner, then things just became not so fun. At some point in the day I left her in line to go get th kids some snacks, and then later to use the rest room, and one time later to take a call that I asked permission to do. At dinner she just seemed cold and withdrawn. I asked what was up, I figured she was tired and ready to go, and I got the old fashioned "nothing" response. I asked if she wanted to call it an early night and maybe take the kids to the pool and got a "whatever". I should have just shut up then.

I made the fatal mistake of asking one last time what was going on and she went off about how I was not taking losing my old job seriously and I kept reminding her that I had just been laid off and was dragging my work life into our trip. I was unaware that I had done that. I assured her that I was upset but I have a job to go home to and I'll keep looking for even better work. Then it became something about me ignoring my family and running off all week, then not getting the kids ready this morning, then not having my schedule already for my new job, then not fighting for my old job. My head was spinning she unloaded so fast. Needless to say, we left the park. We stopped and grabbed some souvenirs then came back to the resort. 

I told her that I really didn't care to crap up the rest of the trip over one disagreement. She says that she didn't think that being there with my family mattered to me. Tomorrow I plan to leave my phone in the car just to make sure there is no outside world contact on my part. She says that I am still doing just enough to get by. I'm really thinking she just can't be kept happy. Not by me and not by anyone else. She has been relaxed all week except for this evening and told me that there were no problems until I pushed her for some. Then she went off about every little thing that she could think of to get me to stop asking.

Anyway, I'll not let tonight ruin it for me. I have a call into my new job to get a hard copy of my schedule and the alarm set extra early so I can do more helping with the kids in the morning.

Here's to Thursday, may it be stress free and full of love and family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BK23

Good luck. There's always going to be something. You're like Sisyphus, rolling that rock up the hill. No matter what you do, there is no way to win with your wife in her current mental state. Obviously not the time to rock the boat in the middle of a vacation, but you seriously need to reevaluate your strategy. Right now you're just prolonging the inevitable and your own misery.


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## Keepin-my-head-up

Man, walking on egg shells at Disneyland!!!
Take it as a sign brother..

This time should be about burning memories of your kids laughing and loving life into your mind.

It definitely shouldn't be about hoping your wife won't be upset over something so trivial.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

She is Snow White. You are one of the dwarves. Concentrate on your kids and work. Improve yourself and let her wait for the poison apple to fall out of her mouth.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Kolors

Leaving for home in the morning and aside from that one deal this week, everything has been quite fun. I stashed my phone and only made one outside world call the rest of the week. I made sure that all of my time was spent making the kids happy. 

My wife does the strangest stuff for someone that was ready to bolt a few months ago. She bought family Christmas stuff, kept talking about our next trip down here at Xmas next year, and seemed to be her old self for roughly 98% of the trip. We have avoided any "us" talk still and keep living in the day. She has accepted that I am back to being a chef again, and seemed to get excited about some on the side pastry chef stuff I plan to work on. I am also looking at some catering on the side and she loves getting in on that.

Tomorrow is the 10ish hour drive home which shouldn't be too bad as long as the kids act decent. I expect some of the old stressors to pop back up once we are home again but lucky for me I'll have the daytime home alone to knock out a lot of things around the house that have been bothering us both. We still have our session scheduled for Thursday so I know that will start dragging out the old feelings. Maybe she can unload some of the old baggage and we can keep plugging along.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Oblivious2678

Kolors, Congrats on the 98%. DO NOT bring up the topic anymore. When she does and starts accusing you of stuff you did or didn't do several years ago, keep your answers short and cordial. Don't try to explain yourself or prove her wrong. It just adds fuel to the fire. Just say you've learned your lesson from that and you've moved on from it.


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## happyman64

Kolors

I give you a lot of credit. Many men would have have acted like your wife, hardened up, dumped you and moved you out.

I admire your fight.

You do realize your wife needs a good shrink.

Keep losing the weight. Keep being you.

Do not bring up the relationship unless it is in MC.

HM64


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## Kolors

Thanks I hope it makes for a better relationship in the long run. It really has been rough not just saying f it and moving on just to avoid the problems but if we do work out our situation and keep our family together it will be worth all the stress. 

Also, since I start working from basically 1 pm till 10 pm this week, I plan to join a gym so I can run indoors each morning after I drop the kids off at school. I should be in top knotch shape by the spring. I think going back to being a chef again, what I truly love doing, will give me some peace of mind when working and a few nights each week away from each other do she has some personal space again once the kids are asleep.

Also, the ride home so far has been spent talking about bringing the family back down next Xmas so things are lookin a bit better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Good. Nothing like a 10 hour drive in a car together to test each other.......

Keep the focus on you and your long term goals.

And it is ok to give her space as long as she uses that time to improve herself as a person and ultimately a wife.

Is your wife in better shape physically than you?

Does she exercise regularly?


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## Kolors

Oh she isn't in great shape by any means. She's 5'9" and about 175. She never lost the two baby weight. She doesn't look like she is in bad shape by any means to me. I know she is unhappy about it though since she weighed about 115 when we married a decade ago. She was also a ballet teacher at the time so she kept her weight off dancing and not eating lol. 

She really hasn't found time to excercise but she is eating good now since I make all the meals, including her lunch since she changed jobs. I personally enjoy her whatever size she is but I know she has a lot of image issues.

I think that I am going to make a physical list of goals an post it in the bathroom where I get ready. Dropping my last 30 lbs will be near the top.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Good. And if she decides to rejoin the marriage 110% then encourage her to exercise in a gym away from the kids if your schedule permits.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Trip is complete! All in all I would say that it exceeded my expectations in terms of family fun and getting along with my wife. The real test is us being back home. If I go on recent experience, we will get in an argument tonight or tomorrow night and she will leave the house to unwind. With the start of my new job Sunday and Monday nights will be the only ones that we are both home until 10 or so in the evening. My gameplan is to keep busy on those days and not give her anything to get mad about. 

Here is to Sunday, back home and hopefully back to normal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Sunday went off without a hitch. Me and the daughter went to church in the AM then headed home. We had absolutely no food in the house since we left nothing in the fridge when we left for vacation. We loaded up and headed out. I had to drop off some kids books at the library and picked up The Divorce Remedy while I was there. I see a lot of people suggest it so I figured what can I hurt? We then had lunch then did the shopping. It's strange shopping for food that she can cook. Historically, I have done the cooking but I will only be home two nights a week for now so I'll either have to make it during the day or leave it for her to knock out when she gets home at 530 or so. I'm planning on doing more cooking with her on the nights that we are home together. She had mentioned how she would like that a while ago but we fell out of routine after the 2nd kid came.

Aside from that, I cooked a big pot of soup to last for a few days, we did a ton of laundry and housekeeping, looked through the 1600 pics that we took at disney, put the kids to bed, then watched Walking Dead. Hanging out is starting to feel less forced and stressful. We are actually talking about randomness and laughing with each other. We are not very physical as of yet but upon reflection, we really weren't before. Maybe we kissed real fast before work or at bedtime. We held hands from time to time in the car and generally slept on our own sides of the bed with the exception of cuddling a bit just before we went to sleep. Really, physical affection will be rediscovering something from five years ago. I should really just taken time and see what happens.

Time to run to the gym and get signed up then to the house to finish some coursework.

Here's to Monday, new beginnings await. 

One last thing, we are still discussing future plans like saving up for next years vacation and going skiing in February. It always gives me the warm and fuzzies when there is acknowledgement of the future in a positive way instead of a more than likely divorced way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Oblivious2678

Kolors, my wife would do that future talk as well. I know it's hard not to, but don't read into it too much. Stay focused on improving yourself and don't get distracted analyzing her every word and action.


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## sammy3

Hope its real, as I would hate to see your heart broken a second time.

~ sammy


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## Kolors

Yea, I try to not predict the future based on conversations about it. I am just happy the comments like "Lets not talk about next summer until next summer" have sort of tapered off.

The hardest thing for me to deal with is when she is obviously in a foul mood or something has bothered her taking her answer of "it's nothing" at face value. I seem to push the issue when she says that and then she finds stuff to be angry about just because I refused to leave her alone. The last few "it's nothing" arguements really had nothing at all to do with me until I pushed the issue. I believe one she was pissed about work and one was something the kids had done but both turned into a fight about us since I wouldn't just shut up and let her deal with her own issues.

And yes Sammy, I hope it is real too but I really don't think it will end up with heartbreak this time. If it all fails in the end it just fails. I really won't have a lot of time to dwell on it. I am setting myself up to be in a good place regardless of my marriage. I'd like my marriage to be the foundation of my life but if we fail to work it all out then I'll find something else. 

As always, I love my wife and I love my family, especially when we are all on the same page, it is just creating more days where we are on instead of days where we are off that is the challenge.


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## Kolors

Another day, another post. Nothing tremendous to write about today. I had to get up this morning and iron a chef coat and pants for the first time in about 6 years! 

I really enjoyed being a chef and thought it would be my life long career before I met my wife. Back then, I was 21 when we met, the job consisted of work hard, party hard, sleep a little, do it again. Now it consists of work hard, go home and sleep, get up, get the wife and kids out of the door, do some housework, and go back to work. It is a country club that I am going to work at. This particular club was the main competition of a club that I was the executive chef at about 12 years ago. The head chef is now a guy that used to work for me and is incredibly excited to be working with me again. He is allowing me to leave each day at 230, pick up my daughter, keep her until my wife gets off at 430, then come back in for night service. Not many jobs will accommodate such a thing in our area so I am blessed to have found this one.

I think the best and worst thing about this job will be not being at home every evening. My schedule will pretty much only have me at home on Sunday and Monday nights. On the good side, my wife will get a break from being around me nonstop and having to worry about coming home to me being in a bad mood. On the bad side, I will only get to see my kids a couple nights a week and Saturday mornings. Granted, Ill get a couple hours alone with my daughter each afternoon and an hour or so each morning with my son, but the whole routine that we have established over the last two months will be broken. Now my wife, who is stressed about life already, will be totally responsible for both kids five nights a week. I am really going to have to pick up the slack during the daytime and set her up for success with the children in the evening. I hope that if I can get the house in order before I leave each day then all she will have to do is focus on the kids for roughly 3 hours before they go to sleep.

Our relationship seems to be in a holding pattern. Things seem to be at a point where we are not fighting or being mean to each other on a daily basis anymore. This is great for the kids since they have not had to hear mommy and daddy being a-holes to each other in several weeks. Our agreement to not say negative things to each other has held with the exception of my pushing her in conversation one time. I can tell that she is not 100% here, or even really 60% but it is way better than the 0% that we had when I started this thread. 

We are still going to our counseling session this Thursday and then I will work on finding us a weekend counselor or someone that can pick up our kids on Monday to allow us to go on that night. This will be the first time in almost 3 weeks that we have talked about our relationship with each other. I expect it to go badly to be honest. When asked if we want to keep our relationship I expect her to say "Eh, I could really go either way" and totally sit on the fence. I also hope this counselor is a "save the marriage" type instead of a "divorce is easier" type. Either way, I hope some good comes out of the session and we get some sort of direction on rebuilding.

I started reading The Divorce Remedy last night. I read the first chapter or so alone, and then started reading it to her once I got into the meat of the book and the first set of questions. The "Walk Away Wife" section described our situation almost too well. Many of the things in the book were word for word things that came out of my wifes mouth and she agreed as I read them to her. I plan to read a bit each day and then leave it marked for her to try to read as well. Who knows if she actually will but she did tell me that she would read a book if I stuck it in front of her. We also agreed to try anything between now and the summer to try to prevent a divorce from happening.

Anyhow, too much writing and too little getting their dinner started.

Here is to Tuesday, new jobs, new people, and hopefully a new relationship.


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## Kolors

Happy Wednesday. Today is the second day of my new routine. I put off starting at the gym this week since I am trying to finish all of my coursework for the semester this week. 

I dropped the daughter off with my wife and got to meet some of her co-workers yesterday which was cool. The wife also wished me good luck before I headed off. The club I am working for is about 5 minutes from her job so it works out very well for me and gives me a couple 1 on 1 hours with my daughter each day.

Work went really well, being a chef is really like riding a bike. You never forget the skill set no matter how long you spend away from it. I enjoy private clubs over anything else because you have so much going on at any one time. Some of the people there still remembered me from various places that I had been the chef at locally and one woman recognized a place that I was the pastry chef at in another state six years ago! All in all it went off without a hitch and I was home about 9PM, just in time to hug the daughter goodnight before she fell asleep. 

I really have missed cooking professionally, I left it because I thought that my wife expected more out of me, little did I know then that it was happiness, not money that my wife preferred. She has told me that several times over the last few weeks. I really am at home knocking out high end food and catering.

On a side note, I bumped into a friend of ours while out shopping yesterday. She is going through a divorce with her husband of 12 years, mostly due to constantly fighting and some physical things that occurred lately. She asked about our situation and I told her that we are kind of on a plateau at the moment where the most hurtful stuff has ended and about our deal to no longer say negative things to each other. I also told her that I really hoped it worked out for us and that it seems that we are at least moving into a place where we can work on our relationship. She told me that she wishes they would have done the same but they have decided to go ahead and divorce. She looked so sad and unhappy about being in the situation that she is in now. I told her that I have read many times that people change their minds before the papers are signed, living apart really shows people what it is that they will no longer have. She actually seemed to be relieved by that talk.

I told my wife about the whole thing last night before bed and she told me that our friend was just feeling so guilty that her relationship had got to that point and they had never worked hard to fix it. She also said that she is regretful now but feels like she waited too long to rebuild, kind of like where my wife is at the moment. 

I did not realize that my wife was feeling guilty about our relationship falling apart. She actually feels like the things she did to "fix" our relationship actually messed it up even worse and has been carrying that around on her shoulders for the longest. She also told me about some things that she had carried like believing that I wanted to be alone and away from her and the kids, she thinks that I have found her unattractive since she is no longer a size 0, and a few other issues that she had just held on to but never really discussed. We didnt really argue or even discuss them further but it really made me think that there is so much stuck in her brain to work out that this may be a longer process that I had ever thought.

I spent a couple hours after she went to bed last night reading and thinking about things she had told me. The issue where she felt that I thought she was unattractive and fat was really hurting my brain.

When we got up this morning I waited until she was dressed and putting on her makeup in the bathroom before I approached her. I told her that I had spent some time thinking about what she had said and that I was truly sorry if I had ever lead her to believe that she was not beautiful to me. I told her that regardless of her shape, she was the most beautiful and important woman in my life and that I love how she looks, whether I tell her that often enough or not. I gave her a hug from behind and she teared up a bit and squeezed back. I told her one last time that I was really sorry for ever making her feel that way and that she should never worry about being ugly to me because I feel that she is nothing short of stunning to me. I gave her a little kiss on the cheek and another squeeze, and she seemed to smile a little as I walked off. 

I am sure it gets filed in the too little too late category but there is never a time where a woman should feel like her mate finds her unattractive. It only shows how little appreciation that I had for her in the past and how much damage there is to repair. Either way, it needed to be done. Her spirit needs as much, if not more, uplifting than mine while we are hashing things out.

So, here's to Wednesday, errands to run and food to cook. I hope everyone has a success of some sort today. The world needs a little extra happiness.


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## happyman64

Good job listening to her. That is key.

Think then respond.

You did well. She needs to hear it from you and a follow up with a physical touch is good.

Who cares where she files it.

If you do it enough there is a chance her "too late" drawer will overflow.

Then she will have to deal with it.

Keep going.

HM


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## LongWalk

You're doing all the right stuff. Just stay cool.


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## Kolors

Yea, staying cool is the hardest part. I had become pretty confrontational when this all started a few months ago, not I just keep myself from blurting out every stupid doubt that I have.

I've been reading The Divorce Remedy and its a pretty good book. I hit her with a quiz out of it the other night and then she had me go on to read another chapter to her out loud. Last night I read another chapter of it out loud to her after I gave her a couple sentences out of the first paragraph. I can't say the book is having me do anything that I am not doing already, but it has opened up a few conversations where I we both identified with the people being hurt in a discussion as well as the person doing the hurt. In one situation I felt like the person whos spouse had stepped out on them but she reminded me that even though I have felt like that for a few months, she felt like that for a few years. Very good point on her behalf.

We hung out a couple hours reading and watching TV before bed with some light relationship discussion but nothing that could move into the drama or argument realm. As usual, we avoided being negative and I still avoided asking her how she felt out recovery was going. We both actually slept really well last night.

Oh yea, and when I dropped our daughter off to her so I could head in to work yesterday, she gave me a hug all on her own. Physical touch was one of the things that we had cut out a month and a half ago since she was not comfortable with it. Making her hug me each morning was just pissing her off even more because she didn't want to do anything to make me feel like we were comfortable (yes, my wife 180'd the hell out of me). It really made my evening and I was all smiles.

Tonight is our first MC appointment. I hope nothing horrible comes out of it. We seem to be on a decent path but the 3rd party could really help us bounce issues off of. She hated going to the one that we saw 4 years ago because the lady seemed to think I was perfectly healthy and that my wife needed help. Hopefully, this lady will be more centered or at least ask my wife to come to a couple IC's instead of openly bashing her in front of me.

So yea, Heres to Thursday. Hopefully we stay on course and learn new things. Time to go get me chef on.


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## Kolors

T minus 2 hours until MC . So incredibly nervous!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Don't be nervous. Embrace it.

Take the good with the bad and do not be reactive.

Show her the strong guy she married. No clinginess.

Who know? You might just get another hug.

You keep control of yourself for both of you.

HM


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## Kolors

Ugh, downhill it goes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> Ugh, downhill it goes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Stay positive.

As well as cool, calm and dispassionate.

Patience.


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## Kolors

Yea I am working on it. The session went about as well as I could expect it tonight. We both really liked the counselor which is a better start than last time.

Our counselor started by asking if we were there to fix a marriage or get a divorce and my wife started out with an I dont know. After the typical first time questions she basically told us that she was there to fix our marriage, she could counsel us to prepare for divorce but she didn't think were that bad off yet. She also said that she had worked with people that were way closer to the edge of the abyss than we are and they are back together leading fulfilling lives.

I gave the counselor a brief run down of the last 5 years and my wife filled her in on how bad I had sucked. She then pretty much told the counselor that she didn't know if there was even a starting point to bringing our marriage back because she had totally checked out two months ago and really didn't know if anything would come out of this. The counselor followed with, regardless of what you are saying, you care for this man somewhere deep inside or you wouldn't be here, even if this is a last ditch effort. My wife agreed.

After going over some more of our issues and my wife admitting that she didn't even know if there was a place to begin working or if she would even commit to doing the work, we got on the five love languages book and quiz. She sent the quiz with us for homework, told us that it is not as bad as we think it is, then scheduled us for every Monday for the next few months.

When we left I asked my wife if she wanted to talk about anything before we got home. We had a talk about how much we liked the lady and her direct approach. We like how she refuses to chose sides or put all the blame on either partner. When I asked her how she felt about working on us she said she really didn't have an opinion. I also asked where she felt we were as a couple since two months ago she was 100% for leaving and having a separation but we had seemed to get along well for the last bit. She said she couldn't answer that since it changed day to day. I asked her what the typical good day was and she said half the time she wants to leave, half the time she is trying to figure out how to stick in a loveless relationship for another 5 years. So yay for loveless relationships!

We drove around for another half hour talking about our issues and she got upset that I keep giving her an out to leave. I always tell her that if she feels that we cannot fix our marriage, then she should just go ahead and leave and save us the time.
She gets upset that I allow her to go ahead and go because then all the blame will be on her. I had to remind her that if she leaves, the blame is kind of on her at this point. I messed up our relationship for a while, now I have done everything that she has mentioned that she wanted out of me. If what I am doing, and keep doing, isn't going to work then yes, you can leave and I won't feel like I did not put it all out there.

After we got home and put the kids together we took the 5LL quiz, she got acts of service and I got Words of Affirmation. I have been full on with the acts of service for the last 2-3 months but she withholds any words of affirmation since "I could have been doing these things five years ago and we wouldn't be in this situation." We then went question by question and had a few laughs at some of our answers. We also had a sincere discussion on how she feels like I think she is fat and unattractive (which I don't) and that she stopped cuddling because she thought I bought a king sized bed to get away from her. Sigh. I had to tell her that I really believe that she has seen everything that I have done, for years now, as a negative. From bringing flowers (oh yay, you thought about me for two minutes as you walked past flowers at the store), to buying the big bed, to purchasing an antique wedding ring that she had pointed out in a store six months ago (I wasn't through shopping, you just grabbed the first thing that you saw me like). 

We also agreed to only talk about our relationship on the evenings that we have counseling. We will put the kids in bed and then do whatever work the counselor sends home with us or just sit down and take inventory of our thoughts.

We later climbed in bed and I had her show me how she actually enjoyed snuggling so she wouldnt feel like I had flopped over on top of her.

After she passed out I was wondering around the house trying to find something to do until I got tired and for some stupid reason started snooping around on her phone again. She had asked a friend of ours who does mortgages if she could get one without my name on it and he told her to come by at noon tomorrow. Common sense went out the door and right back to our room I went.

I asked if she was asleep yet and she mumbled no. I asked if she had any plans to move out and she told me of course not, then asked why. I asked her to please set a password on her phone and to not let me know because I snoop in it each time I get bored and that I had seen her ask about a mortgage. She told me that she would not set up a password, that I need to just stay out of her phone. She also told me that she is looking to refinance our house but without my name on it since I have a judgement from like 10 years ago for a couple grand that I never paid off (its sort of a penis thing between me, my father, and another old business associate). If she could refi it under just her name then our payment would be cut in near half and it would offset some of the money we lost by me changing careers.

I felt kinda stupid for bringing it up but really, why couldnt she have told me that she was looking into that in the first place? Common sense tells me that she couldnt even hope to afford a home on her tiny salary. So yea, I botched that up by being a snoop. My new plan is to just leave her crap alone, no matter how much I want to do some digging.

In the end, I feel like we can still work it out but it will be on a really long scale. She really does not want to have to sit the daughter down and explain how one of us is leaving. She also thinks that she can survive on her income but has started to realize that it is impossible and that my income is so low right now she would get minimal assistance our of me.

I hope we get to some of the meat of the issues on Monday. This week really didn't scratch the surface.


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## LongWalk

Don't apologize for snooping. Don't do all of this relationship talk in bed. Bed is the place you're supposed to be fvcking her not fvcking with her mind. Before you start some drama think about the purpose of what you are going to say. Restrain your anxiety. It just undermines the confident you that you are working on.

You need to be the person you want to be. Not for her, for you.


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## happyman64

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Kolos
You are your own worst enemy.

Your wife has checked out on your marriage and you keep pushing.

Stop it. Now.

Be the man. Act like a man.

And for gods sake start banging your wife's brains out. Because you both need to re-establish that bond.

Now.

Not later.

If she still makes you hot tell her. 

Everyday. Or every morning.

Use that big bed for its intended purpose. So you can do it all over the darn place.

Get to work getting in her pants. Not in her phone.

Report back after you have accomplished this.

HM


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## Kolors

Yeah, better than to ask. Physically, we cut that out two months ago because it made her uncomfortable. She assumed that if she is physical at all with me I feel as though things are better between us. So at seven this morning after I read your post I took a stab at it. She came in the kitchen as I was making her lunch and I told her that she should just skip lunch today run home and squeeze in a nooner before she had to get back to the office. She looked sort of shocked that I had even said that. I told her that we had tried this her way with no touch and it wasn't helping anything and we really want going any farther apart either. She told me that today wouldn't be a good day for that and then she wouldn't even get to eat (she's a fast sex kind of girl and I tend to take my time). I shrugged it off and told her the offer still stands if she changed her mind and went back to doing whatever I was doing at the moment. I found out 10 minutes later as she walked out of the bathroom with a handful of tampons that it really wasn't a good day for that. I told her, you could've just said so then I grabbed her by the face and gave her a giant kiss. She didn't really kiss back and she didn't pull back so I think I pretty much shocked the hell out of her. V

I think that I am at the point where she is going to have to realize that cutting me off totally physically is bad for both of us. Our counselor seemed shocked that we still even slept in the same bed since we had ended most of our touching. I have also figured out that the less physical we are the more her statement that we are more like roommates becomes a reality instead of just a fantasy in her mind and I am just aiding her and that thought process. We have our next counseling session on Monday and I'm sure this will be something that I'll bring up. I counselor also seemed shocked that we had not had sex in almost 3 months now and I was too now that I've sat back and thought about it. 

We also both woke up at 5 AM today. She asked why I was up and I told her I had not slept all that well. I told her that I felt kind of bad after I went snooping through her phone again and overreacted about the mortgage issue. I also told her that I was tired of finding out everything about our lives through her text messages to people. I also told her that I was really really tired of allowing myself to dig constantly. She told me that she had just not had any time to say anything to me yesterday about the mortgage deal she had not even had time to go by and pick up paperwork to start it much less even find out if what she wanted to do could be done. 

I also brought up the fact that I knew she was still deleting text messages from the guy that had sent her a few inappropriate ones a couple months ago. She asked how I knew and I told her not to worry about how I need, I know what she deleted and I can't even understand why the texts that she deleted were being deleted. She said that she is just deleting anything that she thinks I may take the wrong way and get pissed off about. I explained to her that I will always be uncomfortable with her speaking to him until I get an opportunity to talk to him over the phone or in person. I understand she spoke to him for the longest because he was a flirty guy and always said nice things to her, and I understand that he's the same way with Everywoman he meets. However with the issues that we have he needs to understand that I have a huge problem with it, I don't mind them being friends or even talking but I do mind him flirting to my wife or trying to be the go to person for her emotions. As it turns out is moving back home in a month or so and as I explained to her there will be a conversation between me and him either over the phone before he comes back into town or face-to-face when I find him in town. Once again, this is another one that will come up in counseling before I actually make that phone call. She did at least agree to not see him when he comes in town during the Thanksgiving holidays because of how uncomfortable I am with the situation. 

After all that it was just business as normal around the house in the mornings. She works the door at the bar tonight so I won't see her until 3 AM. I plan to go to bed at 10 o'clock and not even be awake or acknowledge that she's home when she gets there. Typically, I get up when she comes in but I have to work tomorrow morning and really need to get some sleep.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Good that you put a move on her. Bad that you are discussing all this stuff. Observe, listen, act. Cut out the the blah, blah, relationship discourse.

You know what to do now. If you have career or goal, get some part of it done. Do new stuff with your kids. Get your wife to see you as a creative, humorous guy. You are, aren't you?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## happyman64

:iagree:

Keep throwing her off. Do not succumb to her definitions of you or your marriage.

Roommates screw too! 

Change it up and focus on you. Make her want to be with you.

And demand NC between her and the "friend". Not out of jealousy but because you want your wife to have high self esteem and get her good feelings from you.

HM


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## Kolors

Yea, I had to get the texts from the other guy stuff off my chest. It had seriously had me pissed off for a good month. Now that I have that off me I feel a ton better. I had just been worried that I would mention it and she would pick her friendship over our relationship. Luckily she values our relationship, as messed up as it is, over that friendship. 

Also, I plan to hold up in my home office and do some model building at night over the next few weeks. That way she Can have space and I can do something I enjoy again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Well, it never seems to stop raining. I had talked with a friend about giving my wife some space this weekend and just staying out of the house as much as possible. My wife had said that she originally wanted some space to see if she missed me or not. Well, she picked this morning to read my FB chat logs and I think it set her off.

I do not delete anything that I write, and she is always welcome to read it. She has my passwords for everything and I hide nothing from her. She even knows about this site but as far as I know has not stumbled across this thread. Maybe she has, I have no idea really.

Anyhow, I thought my shift today was 9-2 but I found out last night that it really started at 7AM. I didnt find out until this morning that it ended at 11AM, not 2PM. Once we wrapped up at 11, I ran to the house to grab a belt and do some quick reading for an exam. As I got home, the wife was busy getting the kids ready because she assumed that I would be gone all day and they were going to go on a play date with some friends. She seemed rather distant so I thought I had found some way to piss her off without knowing it. Everything was cool when I left the house this morning. I checked my computer history and sure enough, she had read the long conversation between myself and a friend about me working extra all weekend and finding somewhere to hang out Sunday afternoon so she could have her space. The conversation also touched on our post therapy argument and how I was debating about getting an extended stay for a few weeks just to give her more space to think.

I checked her texts real fast and of course, she had made a comment to the friend she is going to hand out with along the lines of "of course I can come, I checked his FB chat and he's planning on avoiding me all weekend so I guess I don't have to care about his feelings." 

I mean Christ I cannot win with this woman. I crowd her she gets upset, I try to find a way to give her space she gets upset.

I got her outside so the children wouldnt be in earshot and told her that I had planned to go this weekend since she wanted some space but I was still coming home at night after work. I simply wanted to do like she had asked so she could see if she missed me being around. I cannot even tell you what all she said back, my mind has sort of shut itself off.

She did tell me that she didn't believe that any of the stuff I was doing was actually for her. The cleaning, and taking care of the kids, the taking her vehicle to get fixed and cleaned out, the extra politeness and consideration of her feelings this whole time , trying to get into her interests and listening to everything she has to say. None of that was for her, its all for me. It is all so I can feel better and tell people that I am trying hard to save our marriage but she isn't trying at all.

What
the
hell?

She is upset that everyone seems to be against her and thinking that she should try hard to hold on to her marriage. She is upset that the MC says she needs to find some sort of starting point because she really doesn't feel like she has one. She is still here now because she promised me that she would try everything before we called it quits, and counseling was one of the things she promised to try. She really does not know what to say to the MC on Monday because she is supposed to think of what I can do to start a healing process and she really cannot think of anything. 

I am pretty much divorced I think. I found her searching for rental properties today on the internet but they were on the wrong side of town for the school system that we are looking to get our child into. I have no idea whether to bring that up or not. It is on the side of town that a couple of our friends are looking at so it could be for them and not her. 

I just feel totally wiped and hosed. She keeps saying that she is trying to find ways to make this work for the next few years but she doesn't think she can live like this. Christ, who could live in a situation like this, I sure don't care to fight and be fueled with distrust and drama each day.

I mean, what should I say to this woman? She still keeps saying that she doesn't know if she will be able to let it go since she believes in her heart that I will eventually revert to a bad husband and she really doesn't want to risk getting her heart broken again.

We need like six hours in front of that MC, an hour each week isn't even going to scratch the surface. 

I am sure I will see her tonight since I get off at 9ish and she will be home. I wouldn't be surprised if she left when I got here.

Any advice at this point is welcome. I am starting to get afraid that leaving is going to be my only option soon.


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## happyman64

Kolos

If you keep trying to get what she is always thinking you will drive yourself crazy.

Focus on yourself. Focus on your actions.

If your wife is such a mental case that she will turn everything you do from a positive to a negative then you cannot change that. You cannot change her.

And she will be the demise of your marriage.

She needs a good shrink. There is no way you are the cause of all her unhappiness......

And if anyone leaves the home it should be her. Be prepared to let her go.

If she thinks the grass is greener then let her go.

Focus on your actions. Focus on your children.

HM
F


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## LongWalk

Your cannot remake your relationship overnight. If you choose to dwell on the negative it will overwhelm you. If your feel you're going to explode, take your kids to do something.

What sports do you children play?


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## Kolors

I have a 4 year old and a 16 month old, she dances and plays soccer. It's also freezing here so we aren't outside playing. 

I don't feel like I'm going to blow up, I am just confused how she can want her space but be upset when I try to arrange a way to accommodate it. If my staying out until she's asleep at 10 or so for three or four days doesn't count as space then I don't get it. She would have exactly what she would have if we split, the house to herself, the kids mostly to herself, and no husband at home to cause drama.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> I have a 4 year old and a 16 month old, she dances and plays soccer. It's also freezing here so we aren't outside playing.
> 
> I don't feel like I'm going to blow up, I am just confused how she can want her space but be upset when I try to arrange a way to accommodate it. If my staying out until she's asleep at 10 or so for three or four days doesn't count as space then I don't get it. She would have exactly what she would have if we split, the house to herself, the kids mostly to herself, and no husband at home to cause drama.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I will say it again.

Focus on yourself. Your actions.

Stop analyzing her.

It is a waste of your time.


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## Kolors

I manned up today when she was upset over nothing really at all.

She wants me to move out as soon as possible. No divorce yet, but she cannot stand to be in the same house anymore. She said that unless I do something tremendous, that she will not give me any sort of shot at reconciliation. She has removed herself totally from the marriage and cannot force herself to let me back in.

There is still no other people, she no does not want us to date while we go through the separation.

Christ what a night.


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## Kolors

Kolors said:


> I manned up today when she was upset over nothing really at all. Tried to take charge of the situation and it failed.
> 
> She wants me to move out as soon as possible. No divorce yet, but she cannot stand to be in the same house anymore. She said that unless I do something tremendous, that she will not give me any sort of shot at reconciliation. She has removed herself totally from the marriage and cannot force herself to let me back in.
> 
> There is still no other people, she no does not want us to date while we go through the separation.
> 
> Christ what a night.


----------



## the guy

Good for you!

If your old lady has a problem and your not slapping her around then if she wants out then she can leave.

I mean if any one can understand the simple fact that one can not control another person it should be her.
But she does have control over what she will tolorate and if its at that point now then she can leave...she has that control.

geeze you had such control over were she went and what time she would come home and it was clear you had no control over that. 

But yet she thinks she controls the fact that you leave?

Again she has as much control over you leaving as you had of her coming home a a decent time.


Lets stoop to her level ...tell her your leaving at 8pm tommarow then when 8pm rolls around tell her your leaving a the next morning..... so on and so on..... and when she ask why you haven't left just tell her you lost track of time......Hehehehe

Ya I'm bad.. I feel a little froggy tonite.


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## Kolors

I don't even care to play any games about it. It is simply easier for her to stay in the house since I lost my decent job and couldn't afford to live here on my income alone. I am working seven days a week with only one evening off so I will get the kids on like Monday at 2PM and keep them that one night, then Ill drop them off at school and see them the next Monday I guess.


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## Kolors

I think the worst part is even though we are split up, I will have to see her every single week day still. I have no idea how I am going to face this woman knowing that all I want is her and all she wants is herself.


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## Kolors

Bleh can't sleep. We ended up trying to talk to our daughter about daddy staying at a different house for a while. She of course cried and said she wanted our family to stay together. It was quite emotional. After I read her good night story she hugged me and asked me not to leave or move to a new house. 

The wife and I had a long talk after the kids were asleep. Essentially she has so much built up old rage towards me that everything is causing her to get angry with me. It's not even things that should merit fights either. Tonight started with her being mad that I was making a grocery list. The whole trip out of the house was frustrating due to her attitude. She was mad yesterday because I folded some t shirts wrong. She feels like it will only get worse as long as we are under the same roof. 

I asked how much of a separation she was looking for and of course she didn't know. I started small like separate bedrooms and she said no. I moved on to staying at a hotel for a few weeks or getting an apartment and she said the apartment would be best. Luckily a 2br just came open on the other half of a duplex that my buddy is living in. Unfortunately, it is the apartment that we lived in before we were married . Rent is only $300.00 so I can't ***** if I get it.

She still wants to go to the MC and has no plans for filing papers in the foreseeable future. She did say that she wouldn't want to be separated for years with no changes. She is not ruling out the outside chance that we get back together but she doesn't want to get my hopes up. She is not asking for child support since I making barely enough cash to survive but does want me to pay for my cell phone and 50.00 for my health insurance she she doesn't plan on dropping me from the plan. It looks like I will get the kids Sunday and Monday but they will both be shoved into one bedroom. At best, we get together again and sublet the apartment, at worst I am right back where I was in 2004, in a crap apartment with a bad job and little disposable income. 

I am going to have her name taken off my bank acct Tuesday and changing all the passwords. I told her I would pay half of whatever as long as I was still here. We actually hugged and cried for the first time since this all started tonight. I held her on the couch until she fell asleep and here I am, in our bed alone.

Tomorrow should be a doozy at the MC.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

All she wants is divorce


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

She made her choice.
No more cuddling, stroking hair and listening to her tell you how lousy you were/are.

I know it hurts and we both know it will hurt for awhile.
Eventually the hurt fades.

There will also be anger.
Use that anger to workout, improve your career and push yourself to make her feel stupid for not hanging on to a man like you.

Eventually you will feel indifferent and will see the changes as more than something you did to get her to feel regret.

You will truly be doing them for you.
Stay strong my brother, I know it hurts but you have already felt some of it and you are still alive.


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## Kolors

Yea I agree, it seems like divorce is her end game now. This morning she told me that she had no intent of things going as sat as they did last night. Happy man is right, talking is my own worst enemy. Once she gets me into a conversation my brain goes into overdrive and I push stuff to the extreme. She as hoping that I would take a few days and go stay with a friend but by the time we went to bed it had turned into me moving out, taking her name off the accounts, and tons of dragging out the past for no reason.

We still plan to see the MC tonight and have her weigh in on our situation. Hopefully I hear about that apartment this morning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Have of the marital assets belong to you. I you earn less she may have to pay you alimony or child support.


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## Kolors

I don think I would want money from her to be honest. The home will be sold if she doesn't want to continue living here. I own a small home that I inherited several years ago but she has no interest in it. I would take my truck and she would take her vehicle and we should split up the stuff in the house. We is not have overly complicated finances and little debt. I'd keep my student loans and she would keep hers. An old debt of 3k would be split. She would get the kids on all nights that I am working (5-6 per week). I would still pick my daughter up and keep her until the wife gets off at 4:30, the we would swap sink could head to work. She plans to leave me on her health insurance and allow me to pay the 50 dollar difference until we decide if it's permanent. I'll keep the money in my bank account as well as a family estate account with part of my inheritance (20k or so) and she will keep her personal acct. our pay had been deposited into separate accounts for several years then auto paid from my acct. She I'll also opt out of any payments on a wrongful death suit that was filed this year over the death of my mother at work (which should be quite substantial).

She is not expecting enforced child support but she is expecting my to help however I can. I'll pay for half our sons daycare and continue to purchase clothing and items for both kids. 

If this finally does end up in divorce, which seems likely now, she would rather not create extra problems with a hostile divorce. She just wants what belongs to her and to keep the house. She can refinance the house after we split and drop the payments to next to nothing. 

I am at least thankful that we don't appear to be slugging it out. I'm emotionally broken at this point but it really has nowhere to go but up. As if this morning she was in no rush to get me out the door and we may try some sort of in house separation until I get a stronger daytime only job so the kids will have equal time with us. I am just so worried about my son only seeing me a few hours each week. I hate to have the tiny role in raising him that I see coming. 

And yes, I still love my wife, my kids, and the idea of my family being whole. I'm sure that fades over time but when we were good, we were great.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Good.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## LongWalk

Just separate, detach and work on yourself. Who knows. Once you start dating you will look more interesting to her

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Ginevra

LongWalk is right, IF separation is what you do. But I feel like to save the marriage is not that complicated; it sounds like your wife is wary, but using that to be unaccountable for her own actions. Sounds like being wary is putting her expectations into overdrive (overcompensating). You sound like you are trying... but maybe having each others' passwords and being able to read texts and chats is a no-no.


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## Ginevra

I don't have the answer, or know how to express to her what she is doing wrong. I wouldn't advise that YOU be the one to do it. Maybe you are crowding her, but if she thinks are you are being uncaring when you give her time, she does sound pretty unhappy. Maybe with herself and not you?


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## happyman64

LongWalk said:


> Just separate, detach and work on yourself. Who knows. Once you start dating you will look more interesting to her
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


Kolors

Can you do me one favor. Stop talking. It is killing your marriage.

Your wife has built up a wall so thick that your words are bouncing around in her head. She is not absorbing anything you say.

And all your acts of kindness and being a responsible Dad are great but in her mind she thinks you are just "acting".

She really does want a Divorce at this time. I think you should give her what she wants.

Space. And a lot of it. 

Will it affect the kids. Sure. Will it make you unhappy. Sure.

Will it make her unhappy. Who knows and who cares.

You need to work on you and get comfortable in your own skin with a good permanent fulltime job that you love and can have a good living with.

So shutup and work on you.

If you do move out I think you should spend the money to have a formal separation in place that covers you, the kids, healthcare, finances and even dating. Especially have a significant other in front of the kids or staying over in the house.

Cover your butt and the kids as well.

Show her who you really are. By your actions not your words. Your words are meaningless to her.

SHow her that her attitude is meaningless to you......

HM


----------



## just got it 55

Kolors Listen to HM64

Take his advice verbatim. Implement this plan and act accordingly

You absolutely must take this advice

I see no other way for the outcome you hope for.

It seems counterintuitive but look at it this way

If the Captain of the Titanic increased speed they would have missed the iceberg


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## Kolors

I'm trying to not have discussions with her. Simple questions turn into junk. When we agreed that it was no rush for me to go this morning the one thing I said was, no more talking about us! If something starts up, break away from the conversation. 

For as long as the in house lasts, if it ever begins, I am going to have to restrict the conversation to the kids and everyday basics. I am going to start reorganizing what will be come my room tonight after MC if everything goes well. I plan to give her space until it bores her to tears. I will make sure that aside from the room that I put my stuff in, there is nothing of mine elsewhere to piss her off.

I did find a 2br townhouse today for like $545.00 on the exact school district that we want our daughter in. I ran by the store where we bought all our furnishings over the last few years and the guy will cut me a deal to furnish the whole thing for me and the kids for about 4k delivered. So basically 5500 covers first and last, full furnishings, pots and pans, and deposits on electric and cable. I've got a 401k that I was going to roll over but I may just cash it out for extra "bug out" money and stay ready to pull the trigger. I am sure that I can afford that little payment on just my daytime job so I may have to cut back to just Friday and Saturday nights so j can have the kids 5 nights a week. I'll still be able to keep the rent that is coming in from a rental that I own that will cover most all of the townhouse payment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

And yes I am going to go the HM route and give her all the space I can. If in house works for a whole that's great, I'll see the kids morning and night. If it doesn't then ill switch up my gameplan and start the separation.

It's getting less about winning her back and more about getting my sanity back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Ugh MC in two hours, I could just puke I am so nervous. Last week we talked about the session afterwards. I think this week I will take the advice to just shut the hell up.


----------



## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> And yes I am going to go the HM route and give her all the space I can. If in house works for a whole that's great, I'll see the kids morning and night. If it doesn't then ill switch up my gameplan and start the separation.
> 
> It's getting less about winning her back and more about getting my sanity back.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kolors the SPACE is for YOU

It's your new life now

If in the off chance she comes around then make it on your terms

That she will respect.


----------



## Kolors

I hear you that the space is for me but it kills me to leave.

She stopped by real fast to grab the daughter for dance and let me know that she isn't going to refi the house, just sell it and get a different house next summer.

She also let me know that a friend of ours has an apartment that he owns that he is willing to let me live in for free for a while to see how it goes. It is in the hood and is in bad shape but it wouldn't cost anything but electric and cable. The wife said that since I more than likely wouldn't want to take the kids over there that she would leave any time I wanted to be here with the kids. I told her that I would either take him up on that or go ahead and pick up the townhouse that I saw today. 

I really would rather live somewhere decent where I could take the kids instead of in a dump where the would be afraid to go outside, especially if I am about to hit this long anxious slide that I see coming.

So yes, it is definitely separation time. I mentioned separating here in the house and she said she couldn't do that since she would still have to see me and know that I was depressed.


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> I hear you that the space is for me but it kills me to leave.
> 
> She stopped by real fast to grab the daughter for dance and let me know that she isn't going to refi the house, just sell it and get a different house next summer.
> 
> She also let me know that a friend of ours has an apartment that he owns that he is willing to let me live in for free for a while to see how it goes. It is in the hood and is in bad shape but it wouldn't cost anything but electric and cable. The wife said that since I more than likely wouldn't want to take the kids over there that she would leave any time I wanted to be here with the kids. I told her that I would either take him up on that or go ahead and pick up the townhouse that I saw today.
> 
> I really would rather live somewhere decent where I could take the kids instead of in a dump where the would be afraid to go outside, especially if I am about to hit this long anxious slide that I see coming.
> 
> *So yes, it is definitely separation time. I mentioned separating here in the house and she said she couldn't do that since she would still have to see me and know that I was depressed*.


Is anyone going to say it ?


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## LongWalk

> So yes, it is definitely separation time. I mentioned separating here in the house and she said she couldn't do that since she would still have to see me and know that I was depressed.





> Is anyone going to say it ?


:iagree::iagree:

Kulors, you are a thoughful person capbable of figuring out what has gone wrong. Your wife seems like a pretty reasonable person. She just doesn't love you anymore. There's no escaping that. She pities you. She is repulsed by the thought of your bodies joining together. She has wanted to end it for some time.

You should do what HM suggested. Give her what she wants. The mere fact that you have the courage to embrace your freedom will surprise her. The faster you go with the D, the better for the both of you. Dragging it out will only leave a bad taste in your mouths.

You outlined the settlement in considerable detail. Is it completely fair and realistic? I am not prepared to pass judgment, but the virture of doing it without lawyers cannot be underestimated.

The crappy apartment transiition? Tough call. Living in a bad neighborhood sucks, but what does it matter if you save a significant amount of money. On the other hand, having a nice place from the word go would be nice for you kids. The four grand all at once from some store is that necessary? Can you afford it? How much cheaper could you do it from IKEA and some used furniture and appliance store?

Probably you will not be ready to date right away while it sounds like your wife is itching to go. Don't rush yourself to compete with her on this front. Concentrate on getting better work and your kids.

Do you have any career goals that you can work on? Some kind of course that will improve your qualifications and get you better work. if you are going forward in life and are manifestly happy without her, she may find you attractive again. However, WAW seldom return. 

If she gets together with someone really quickly, that may be a sign that she was cheating, but at this point there isn't much you can do about it now.



> If the Captain of the Titanic increased speed they would have missed the iceberg


:iagree:

And as you speed away be independent. She should not be like your mom fixing your room at college.

Read and re-read HappyMan.


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## just got it 55

LongWalk said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> 
> Kulors, you are a thoughful person capbable of figuring out what has gone wrong. Your wife seems like a pretty reasonable person. She just doesn't love you anymore. There's no escaping that. She pities you. She is repulsed by the thought of your bodies joining together. She has wanted to end it for some time.
> 
> You should do what HM suggested. Give her what she wants. The mere fact that you have the courage to embrace your freedom will surprise her. The faster you go with the D, the better for the both of you. Dragging it out will only leave a bad taste in your mouths.
> 
> You outlined the settlement in considerable detail. Is it completely fair and realistic? I am not prepared to pass judgment, but the virture of doing it without lawyers cannot be underestimated.
> 
> The crappy apartment transiition? Tough call. Living in a bad neighborhood sucks, but what does it matter if you save a significant amount of money. On the other hand, having a nice place from the word go would be nice for you kids. The four grand all at once from some store is that necessary? Can you afford it? How much cheaper could you do it from IKEA and some used furniture and appliance store?
> 
> Probably you will not be ready to date right away while it sounds like your wife is itching to go. Don't rush yourself to compete with her on this front. Concentrate on getting better work and your kids.
> 
> Do you have any career goals that you can work on? Some kind of course that will improve your qualifications and get you better work. if you are going forward in life and are manifestly happy without her, she may find you attractive again. However, WAW seldom return.
> 
> If she gets together with someone really quickly, that may be a sign that she was cheating, but at this point there isn't much you can do about it now.
> 
> :iagree:
> 
> And as you speed away be independent. She should not be like your mom fixing your room at college.
> 
> Read and re-read HappyMan.


THank You LW You took the words right out of my mouth (Maybe a bit more elequently)


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## Kolors

Oh yea, I just called the tenant that I have in my rental and let him know he was past his payment time by 5 days so I needed him to move. He has half my money (lol) so I told him to keep it, use it with this weeks paycheck to get him a new place, and let me know when hes out so I can move in.

Its a 2 bedroom about 15 minutes out of the city, but its free for me! 

Ill be out about 5 days after he is.


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> Oh yea, I just called the tenant that I have in my rental and let him know he was past his payment time by 5 days so I needed him to move. He has half my money (lol) so I told him to keep it, use it with this weeks paycheck to get him a new place, and let me know when hes out so I can move in.
> 
> Its a 2 bedroom about 15 minutes out of the city, but its free for me!
> 
> Ill be out about 5 days after he is.


Great for you Kolors 

Now that you know some of the unkown (Where you will live in a safe familar place)A place you feel good about bring your children to Thats step one

Tell us What is step two ?


----------



## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> Oh yea, I just called the tenant that I have in my rental and let him know he was past his payment time by 5 days so I needed him to move. He has half my money (lol) so I told him to keep it, use it with this weeks paycheck to get him a new place, and let me know when hes out so I can move in.
> 
> Its a 2 bedroom about 15 minutes out of the city, but its free for me!
> 
> Ill be out about 5 days after he is.


And take that time there to show her and the world and mostly your children the man you really are.

As HM64 and Conrad would say

Cool Calm and Dispassionate 

THE VERY LAST PERSON YOU WANT TO LET DOWN IS WHO ?


----------



## happyman64

Kolors said:


> I hear you that the space is for me but it kills me to leave.
> 
> She stopped by real fast to grab the daughter for dance and let me know that she isn't going to refi the house, just sell it and get a different house next summer.
> 
> She also let me know that a friend of ours has an apartment that he owns that he is willing to let me live in for free for a while to see how it goes. *It is in the hood and is in bad shape but it wouldn't cost anything but electric and cable. The wife said that since I more than likely wouldn't want to take the kids over there that she would leave any time I wanted to be here with the kids.* I told her that I would either take him up on that or go ahead and pick up the townhouse that I saw today.
> 
> I really would rather live somewhere decent where I could take the kids instead of in a dump where the would be afraid to go outside, especially if I am about to hit this long anxious slide that I see coming.
> 
> So yes, it is definitely separation time. I mentioned separating here in the house and *she said she couldn't do that since she would still have to see me and know that I was depressed*.


Do you see just how little she cares.

About you.......

So shutup. Stop talking and start doing for yourself and your kids.

Divorce her. 

Go find yourself and be the man you need to be.

Because your wife has a lot of growing up to do. She is going to go out, be used and abused.

And there is nothing you can do for her.

But you can smile, say goodbye and love yourself.

So get going.

HM


----------



## LongWalk

I speculated earlier:



> Probably you will not be ready to date right away while it sounds like your wife is itching to go. Don't rush yourself to compete with her on this front. Concentrate on getting better work and your kids.


Now HappyMan writes:


> Because your wife has a lot of growing up to do. She is going to go out, be used and abused.


Read LostLove71's thread. His cheating WAW has slept with at least 5 or 6 guys and ended up broken (her own words). The problem is that when a woman's brain listens to the self gene that demand fresh more alpha DNA, the average betazied guy doesn't have any idea how to up his ranking.

Of course are responsible for not being a cooler and more successful guy, but it is possible that she would have done the same to you even if you were pulling in six figures.

You just have to be philosphical and laugh biology (or the devil if you are a Christian) is fvcking with you.

The horrid part right now is that your wife probably has it planned her mind. On the weekends that you have the kids she i going to date and get laid. If she doesn't have a guy in mind, then she is thinking about dating sites.

Maybe she really has her shxt together and will not be used and abused. Could be that she will find a good man who doesn't just want her for sex... how many children do you have? How many guys want to be super stepdad to so many children?

If she stays single and is cautious about dating, then that will be a good thing for your children. You can be grateful that she has some class. Let's hope it proves so.


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## Kolors

Im thinking its time to get this thread moved. Who do I get to do that?


----------



## happyman64

You have plenty of time to move your thread.

Focus on moving you.

To a better place in life.

Time is on your side.

The key is going cold turkey on your wife.

A true 180.

She needs it as much as you.


----------



## Kolors

woah I made a long post and it disappeared.

Anyhow, MC sent us home to live at separate ends of the house until I get the other house ready. We are to have no contact verbally (cough talking is my worst enemy cough) until our next MC session next Tuesday. We are to avoid each other as much as humanly possible. It is understood that we will have interactions about the kids and that some things will have to be communicated but we are to put a notebook on the kitchen counter and use it so any communication will be concise and cannot be mistaken for something else. No talk of anything at all that is not of the utmost importance.

As for living arrangements, out house has a den and a living room. My computer and hobby stuff is in our den so I am taking this room as a living space. She is taking the living room since her laptop and stuff is already set up in that room. We will stay out of each others space period. 

For sleeping arrangements, I will sleep in our bedroom and she will sleep in the den. She has issues with staying asleep all night and usually gets up at 3 or 4 to go lay on the couch and watch TV until she falls back asleep so the couch is hers. It actually works out best for her as she cannot hear the baby making random noises or our daughter talking in her sleep from that room so she may get a full night of sleep for once.

I will continue to drop off our son in the mornings and pick up our daughter in the afternoons. We will swap kids when my wife gets off like we have been and I will head direct into work. 

As for my other house, I expect them out asap but I understand it may be a week or two before they get out, longer if I have to go through an eviction process. Once they are out, I plan to have some minor work done inside and a new coat of paint thrown up before I get furniture in there. I will take the advice of picking up some thrift store couches and tables for the time being. I really do not need luxury, I just need a place to get away at. 

I plan to get back into my hobby and start running again in the evenings when I get home. A good couple miles at 40 degrees feels great. I am going to clean this den out tomorrow on my break and get any of the unnecessary to live stuff stored out in my garage for the time being.

Basically, my wife gets her space, I get to stay close to my kids for a little while, and fighting is eliminated totally. HM is right, she needs it as much as I do at the moment, we are just way to hurt to act in a normal fashion. I wish we had done this months ago but I wasn't in the mental space where I could. 

Times are a changin' I guess.

Also, LWs post reminded me of something from our session. Both times now she mentioned the old Alpha qualities that I had that made her love me. My old job and the stress of it stripped me of those qualities. Now that I am back in my professional element (that she admitted tonight that I should have never left) my Alpha is returning.


----------



## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> For sleeping arrangements, I will sleep in our bedroom and she will sleep in the den. *She has issues with staying asleep all night *and usually gets up at 3 or 4 to go lay on the couch and watch TV until she falls back asleep so the couch is hers. It actually works out best for her as she cannot hear the baby making random noises or our daughter talking in her sleep from that room so she may get a full night of sleep for once.
> 
> Times are a changin' I guess.
> 
> Also, LWs post reminded me of something from our session. Both times now she mentioned the old Alpha qualities that I had that made her love me. My old job and the stress of it stripped me of those qualities. Now that I am back in my professional element (*that she admitted tonight that I should have never left) my Alpha is returning*.


Kolors The sleep thing is a major concern Has this always been the case ?

Tell us what do you make of the Alpha thing ?


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## happyman64

Kolors

I agree you are both hurt. And the separation from each other is necessary.

Your wife has a wall up. Do I think she is acting the right way? Like a woman that loves her husband and marriage, that she wants her family? 

No.

But the only thing you can control is you. Your actions. Your words.

So take this time to heal. To become strong. To do what you love to do.

I have no idea if you two will reconcile or not. 

But the key is to come out of this a better man, father and human being.

Come out so good that your wife or exwife scratches her head wondering why she ever gave you up.

Then you know you are on the right track.

HM


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## Kolors

Sleep has become a major issue for her. I always expected her to sleep in our bed and refused to take her sleeping on the couch as anything but an insult. In MC she finally said it was because if the kids made any little noises it would wake her up and she just couldn't go back to a solid sleep. It's been this way almost every night for 1.5 years since our son was born. She never adjusted to not waking up for that 2-3 am feeding once he was weaned. I also dislike her waking up and turning on the tv in our room at 2am so she goes to the couch to watch tv and falls asleep again at 4 or so. This has led to her being exhausted pretty much every day. She's taken melatonin to sleep but will not get a sleep prescription out of fear of sleep walking and doing crazy things.

As for my former personality, when I was a chef I was a dominant person. Not aggressive but strong an in charge and she loved that. I was respected by those in the local culinary community and people loved what I did. I was strong, confident, and the ring leader in my group of friends. I stopped being that guy once I got a desk job. I've been a mess for years.

Also, I ignored her all night last night but this morning she was in here sittin in the bed talking. I used the minimal amounts of word possible. Space right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Oblivious2678

Kolors, stay strong my friend and stick to that 180. Focus on you and the kids. You got this.


----------



## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> Sleep has become a major issue for her. I always expected her to sleep in our bed and refused to take her sleeping on the couch as anything but an insult. In MC she finally said it was because if the kids made any little noises it would wake her up and she just couldn't go back to a solid sleep. It's been this way almost every night for 1.5 years since our son was born. She never adjusted to not waking up for that 2-3 am feeding once he was weaned. I also dislike her waking up and turning on the tv in our room at 2am so she goes to the couch to watch tv and falls asleep again at 4 or so. This has led to her being exhausted pretty much every day. She's taken melatonin to sleep but will not get a sleep prescription out of fear of sleep walking and doing crazy things.
> 
> As for my former personality, when I was a chef I was a dominant person. Not aggressive but strong an in charge and she loved that. I was respected by those in the local culinary community and people loved what I did. I was strong, confident, and the ring leader in my group of friends. I stopped being that guy once I got a desk job. I've been a mess for years.
> 
> *Also, I ignored her all night last night but this morning she was in here sittin in the bed talking. I used the minimal amounts of word possible. Space right?*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kolors I understand that culture all too well A Chef must make his presence known and felt in the kithen .Weather he is there or not His staff must always feel his presence.Not from fear but from respect.People support what they help to create.

Help your wife help you both create a relationship you can both be comfortable with R or D

There is God and then Chef then Doctors, Lawyer and such (Others may put Lawyers way down on the food chain)

Be The Exectutive Chef in life

And to the bold font in your last post

You will see as you keep up the 180 She is already questioning herself

Have all you Mise en Plase ready for your next rush

Be strong you know what happens when there is blood in the water


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## Kolors

Totally, I've also noticed that any time she starts to be comfortable or I do good things she does something to throw the balance off and in really not sure if it's a defense mechanism for her or what. 

As she was getting ready to leave this morning I was in the kitchen ironing my chef coat. She stopped to tell me that at least with me moving to the home I already own It will only coat me like 300 a month to live so I could take more time for the kids and not have to worry about missing an hour or two here and there. She honestly thought it was a reassuring comment. I just told her it wasn't money I was worried about and that we need to stick to the notebook.

Next thing I know she had went to the living room and started printing the Five Apology Languages stuff that our MC told us to do for homework. And gave me a copy as she left.

One other thing that really stood out. The MC mostly dealt with her again last highly because she has the most wounds. She kept her talking about the first 5-7 years we were together and after about 15 minutes if discussions she pointed out to my wife that each time she talked about me or our early life her eyes lit up and she smiled. You could see the realization at that point. The counselor is doing a great job of isolating just where things went wrong. She had her realize that the first half of our marriage was indeed an amazing time that was filled with love and fun. It was a sight to see.

Our MC also told us to not worry about paying her for services. She felt like she wants to do the counseling for us as a gift of sorts. She agreed we needed some space to fix our hurt but didn't want us jumping too far ahead of ourselves. She saw the few weeks until I was getting out as significant and canceled her plans next week to fit us in again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Keep going with the MC plan. Don't let her wobbling allow you to appear needy. Go forward being strong. She is smart. Once you move out and have your shxt together she may change her mind. You may also have a change of heart. You can love her but decide that will not work. Time will tell.

I am now curious about attachment. When a woman has fallen out of love with her husband/boyfriend/partner but has been faithful, what does having sex with a new partner do to the remaining emotional bonds between the woman the old SO? There must be several possible patterns. I don't mean to drive you crazy, speculating about it.

There was one TAM thread about a woman who had an affair and divorced her husband and a couple of years later during the kid drop offs she realized she had fallen back in love with him. I think he hard remarried. 

It was sort of like this story but shorter and more poignant.

I don't think you can predict what will happen but simply pursue the path of self preservation at this point. Her pity as you split up is horrible. I would find it unbearable. So the notebook is best. Maybe you can put a cup by it to indicate if there a new entry. Upside down means nothing new. Rightside up means one of you has written something.


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## just got it 55

Nice Job Chef I see you taking command of yourself

Now after you get settled one way or the other Go after a lead position in a prestigieuses properity to really boost you rank.


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## Kolors

Gaaaaaah. The wife just sat down and did the math and she is going to be roughly 500 a month short on paying the bills, even with the cable shut off an her phone cut back to basics. I realized there really is no heat out at that house and I can't have my kids in there so I agreed to let the tenant finish out his time there as long as he stays prompt on payment. 

If I get a cheap apartment, I should just have enough money to pay the bills each month but I won't have that kind of extra money for her. I can pay half the daycare I bet but defiantly not that much. 

A month ago she said that she had done the math and she could survive in the house, pay the bills, and be fine without my money. Now that I am leaving she knows that she can't and knows that my support will be minimal at best. I know that this all started when I was making 3x what I am now and she knew I would give her everything she needed for the kids. She is such a good planner that I just cannot see her not seeing this coming. We are going to have to pull our daughter out of dance and sports now and that is going to suck!

I really can't help her. I know we aren't supposed to be talking but this relates directly to the kids and my leaving. She really never thought any if this through I think. It has progressed much faster than either of us anticipated and now neither of us are in a stable position financially. 

I really hope she doesn't lose our home before this is all said and done. My mom lost ours when her and dad split up and I see that happening now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

Chef stay in control Look at other income opps

In that field ther are lots of opps

What Large city are you near

ETA: you only need to make up half She will need to hold up her end as well


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## Kolors

None really. I'm steady applying for new jobs but no responses yet. We are the bigger city and most of the jobs that are available are 8-9 an hour jobs. I'm making 15 at one job and 9 cash at my second job but it's goin to take all of that to support myself and not live in the ghetto.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

What business was the job you lost in ?


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## Kolors

Industrial sales management. I was an operations manager for a supply company that downsized all over the country. 

I am seriously applying for every open position that I can find every day or two in hopes of something that will pay well enough for me to only work during the days.

With two meh incomes we had my layoff under control, with just one it is spiraling out of control.

I just rode around looking for an apartment in a few areas where I would like to live but nothing was available. I am going to try to live as cheap as i can so I can help the kids out. 

I really do not want their standard of living to take hit because their parents went through a tough time. They are both small enough to never remember this even happened if it all works out.

I've applied for several kitchen manager or general manager type restaurant jobs in the last few weeks. I know they really will not help my case of seeing my kids more often, but they will help financially even if they are just 40-50k a year jobs. The median income in our area is only 45k so it isn't so rough to survive, you just have to luck into one of the good jobs.


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## just got it 55

The National Chains i.e. California Pizza Kitchen,Olive Garden,Legal Seafood The 99 the like are a good opp for KM or AKA to start

They are not the old high hour low paying jobs. They keep Mgr hours to about 45 to 50 hours per week with nice bonus programs.

As well as great bennies

Very coperate structured if you can handle the culture


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## LongWalk

In your last three posts you sound different. Solving practical economic problems seems easier to talk about than puzzling over relationship issues. However, I don't think you should for a minute think that the diffculties will improve you chances of reconciliation.

Increasing your income ASAP seems do or die now. No wonder the MC is giving you pro bono treatment. It's almost as if she is secretly hopes to see you pull off an economic miracle to become a hero to your wife. 

Why does't your house have heat? Are you a slum landlord?

Hurts to read that your daughter will have leave dance.


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## happyman64

You see the reality of the situation. Does your wife?

Do.not say anything. Let her come to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

No lol. The unit went out but I hadn't repaired it. I had no interest in renting it out but a coworker was down in his luck so I let home stay out there this summer and Put in some window units. He picked up some space hearers for the winter. This was the first month that he was to pay rent and has been out there six months.

And yes I am a problem solver by nature, that's why this wife stuff has thrown me for a loop.

And yes she sees how grim the future is with our separate finances. She actually came to me over it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Follow HappyMan's instructions. You are too poor to divorce. But this nothing new. All divorces hurt economically. You have buy all sorts of stuff. Everytime something is forgotten in one house, e.g., child's swimsuit, you end up buying a second one. So far you have negotiated in good faith and suddenly you got whammed by the layoff.

You took that rather calmly, by the way.

Now if you go into high gear working to make your family's economy good enough so that you can afford to dissolve and take a step towards a lower standard of living, maybe your wife rethink her desire for freedom.

If you do not talk much but your eyes show that you are listening and taking action, busting your butt so that you can you proudly deliver your wife the divorce for which she has so longed, with a resolved smile, i.e., you are dumping her instead of her dumping you. It may affect her thinking. Do not count on it, but is a good reason to really drive the 180 while starting your life independent of her.

If she remains determined to go her own way, it will not hurt you as much. That is best for you and your two kids.

Your city sounds depressed. 

You may be able to find other sports for your daughter. Swimming could be cheaper than dance and 4 years old is a good age to start. There are for sure some cute moms dragging kids there, some may be divorced.

HappyMan is, as you know, a gifted psychologist. Follow his instructions and you will probably maximize the rapid positive outcome.


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## happyman64

Last lesson for tonight.



> And yes she sees how grim the future is with our separate finances. She actually came to me over it.


You do realize that when your wife decided on divorce that she has fired you.

So she came to you over the finances.

You have to decide if she came to you as a "we" or a "me".

Because when you get fired she has chosen to no longer be a team with you.

Maybe she has to figure out what to do to make ends meet as a single mom......

It is ok to want the best for your kids.
It is ok to want the best for you.
It is ok to divorce amicably.

But it is not ok to put your personal finances at risk where you have to live in a bad area in a apartment that will not allow you to have a safe place for your kids.

Do not be afraid to push some of those items back at your wife and tell her to figure it out.

Freedom has a price. For both of you.

HM


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## Kolors

Oh, she definitely came to me with it as a me. It was pretty much "I did the math and figured out that I am about $500 a month short on paying the bills after everything is said and done." I told her that I hated that but there was nothing that I could do for her. I told her that I would look at the math later when I came home.

We did speak about it when I got home and I did a few different things than normal. I can say this, being back in my work element has definitely boosted my confidence. That and the counseling. 

Anyway, rather than speak in the living room where we typically talk (which is also "her space" during this in house separation week) we sat at the kitchen table with no distractions. No cell phones, or iPads, or TV's. Just the two of us, a notepad, and a table. The kitchen is neutral territory right now and was the best place that we could go to avoid being in each others "safe zone".

I started the conversation with exactly what we were there to talk about. Write down your bills and what it is going to cost per month. She went through the whole list of bills associated with her and the house and the kids. I totaled the list up and then had her write down the exact amount her salary was each month. The difference was more like $800.00. Not a ton of money normally, but right now that is a large chunk.

I explained it like this. We cannot afford this right now. Together, we make enough money to cover the household expenses and have a surplus each month as long as I work two jobs. I have made a post looking to see if any friends are looking for a roommate and I have found two people willing to let me move in today for a much cheaper deal than rent. I can give you whatever money it takes for the kids daycare but you will still be short about $250.00 with nowhere really to cut any expenses. It is unfortunate but we cannot financially handle a divorce or separation at this moment. Tons of people in the world are in our situation and are having to tough it out to make ends meet. I hate that the one thing you want is space and right now we cannot afford for you to have it. I can leave tomorrow if you would like but it is not going to solve our money issues. 

I explained to her that I had confirmed a few roommate situations and if the counselor suggested me doing that on Tuesday when we go back then I will be out the door. I will try to help her as much as possible but I can only do what I can do for how.

I also explained a new development in the job search that popped up this evening that involves sales and product training for a very large food company covering our region. It turns out one of my friends is good friends with the regional director and put in a good word for me today and the director asked for me resume so can meet. With a sales and a chef back ground it is PERFECT for me. I told her that if I can land that job I will be out of the house that much faster and will contribute more to the children financially.

I wrapped it up with, for the time being let me know when the bills are due and I will give you half of each bill in cash that day. I also plan to pay the remainder of our daughters dance season (through June) on Friday when I get my severance pay in. It is more important to me for my daughter to have the thing she enjoys the most than it is for either of us to have spending cash at the moment. I also planned on going ahead and purchasing each child one big present for Christmas and the small presents she can pick up as she gets money. Aside from that, I intend to spend no cash that is not 100% necessary in order to avoid touching my savings.

She actually stopped the hard ass act tonight for the first time in months. For the first time in quite a while I actually felt like I was back in control and she understood that what I was saying was how it had to be, no matter how we felt personally. We agreed for the time being to stop the separation talk or divorce talk and just get along and get through this situation. I told her that at any point if she felt like going and staying at a friends for a few days to unwind then she should. If she needed to pick up shifts at night so she can see friends and get out of the house, go ahead. I no longer cared to stay up at night worrying or calling and I really didn't care if she came home at 10 or 2, I was doing what I had to do to take care of my kids. She told me that she realizes that I am doing everything I can and that I should take some time for my friends since I haven't seen them in a few months.

We then totally broke the rules of no talk and just enjoyed speaking to each other for half an hour. We talked about the kids and looked back at our old careers. We talked about some of our friends and what they are dealing with currently. We talked about my depression and some of the stuff that I had been through in the last few years. When the conversation finally started to turn into us and our relationship, we cut it off, got up from the table, told each other goodnight, and went our separate ways for the evening.

This is the sort of interactions that we should have had since this whole thing started. More likely, since about the 6th year of our marriage. She understands now that I may not like what is going on but I will move on for the sake of sanity and due to the value that I have always placed on our marriage. 

So, who knows what tomorrow holds? Hopefully an amazing job interview and another day with no in house drama. I think I am going to sleep well tonight for the first time in weeks.


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## Kolors

oh, and her talk totally went from "me" to "we" by the end of the conversation. I think we both know that no matter how bad we seem to have it, there are way worse places to be in the world right now.


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> oh, and her talk totally went from "me" to "we" by the end of the conversation. I think we both know that no matter how bad we seem to have it, there are way worse places to be in the world right now.


Good for you.

Be aware of the "me" and "we".

And keep your conversations based on reality.

Throw your depression in the garbage, grab the world by the balls. Have a great interview.

And get some real sleep.


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## LongWalk

Good job! Really.

It is funny that you go up and down and back forth, but overall you are changing things for the better. What is most impressive is that everything is against you, but you are not crumbling. You don't post stuff like, I drank all weekend to kill the pain. That is the way to go.

By letting your wife know that you have the self discipline to accept her leaving you even though it hurts you to the soul, she will be moved. Moved to pity or love? You cannot predict this. It could go either way. The odds are not in your favour, but if there has been a shift of 17-1 against you, now it maybe 15-1 against you.

The pity is dried pigeon shxt. You need to make certain that your wife doesn't catch you gazing longingly at what you cannot have. 

If you should get the good job, don't show that you are happy and satisfied with yourself: you expected to come through and never doubted yourself. Let her remember that. Be very wary of taking her back without heartfelt commitment. Once you become vulnerable to her flip flopping, the spark may die.

You have to show that you are strong. 

Basically in your current in-house separation, as you have just renegotiated, she now has permission to sleep with other men.



> If she needed to pick up shifts at night so she can see friends and get out of the house, go ahead. I no longer cared to stay up at night worrying or calling and I really didn't care if she came home at 10 or 2, (*might as well say all night*) I was doing what I had to do to take care of my kids. She told me that she realizes that I am doing everything I can and that I should take some time for my friends since I haven't seen them in a few months.


She indicated that you should also date, but she only said see friends because she doesn't believe you are over her.

If you do go out, she will for sure wonder if you are going to meet other women. She does not yet know how much it will bother her to think of you kissing another woman. She has not thought it out completely.

If she does hook up now and you keep a poker face, she will be surprised. Also, women are funny. They may decide to sleep with a guy they do not 100% approve of and once it is done, they say to themselves "never again with him".

From that sort of negative experience you don't know which direction they'll run.

It seems like you could be good at sales and marketing but you need to interact with customers and have fun at work instead of just crunching numbers for reports.

HappyMan is sticking with you because he sees your potential. Be grateful. There is another guy you has all the cards in his favor. He has control now but seems to have lost his ability to execute. I noticed that HM has fallen silent, waiting to see what he will do. That guy is plenty smart. He has all the ability but he is allowing his emotions to wash away his defences like a sand castle.

You were building a sand castle for a long time but you have stopped. Your wife may have a plan for her life but if so the good parts are top secret. And there is every sign the blue print does not go beyond getting her vagina into action. Right now she has to think about replacing you with a guy who offers her what?

Make sure you keep you daughter in dance if you can.


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## Kolors

It seems that I may be defining what we are doing incorrectly. We are leaving each other alone for the time being. We have not separated in our relationship, we are still at the same epic standstill. We have realized that no progress will be made while we are both so hurt and so busy over reacting to everything each other does. We are actually speaking (even though we arent supposed to) and feeling each other out while avoiding any talk of us or where our relationship is going. We are saving the MC nights for that. Our first goal is to stop hurting one another and turning everything into a talk about why our relationship is failing or why our relationship is getting better. We are simply giving each other space and time.

I didn't say anything about either of us having permission to date or see people. We are separating ourselves from each other inside the house for a few weeks so we can stop fighting. Neither of us are looking for other people or even considering it. The goal is to stop being mean to each other first because we have rubbed each other raw for three months. Our next goal is to do counseling each week and see if our relationship can be salvaged. We both admit that it may or may not work but we have agreed to not cloud it up with other people or by doing things with the intent of hurting the other person.

She had cut out the going out at night and hasn't aside from one work shift in 3 weeks. I am actually encouraging her to go see a friend for a bit so she can talk and not start feeling trapped in the house. She's encouraging me to go hang out with you buddies (they play board games and drink beer) one night so I can have a break. One thing we never did well was being apart. We both felt slighted when the other did stuff without us. To be healthy in the future we have to develop the ability to let each other go without drama.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Oh, and the dance thing will be handled this Friday. I plan to write a check to the school that covers the remainder of the year, so that way even if things go south rapidly I know that will be taken care of.

And another thing I don't think that I ever mentioned. My wife has never been a sexual person. It is not something that just developed with me, she is been that way and most all of her relationships. One guy she lived with for over a year she said she may have slept with five times. It has put some strain on our relationship, but it is one of those things that I learned to deal with it. She is one of those strange birds that could leave tomorrow and go sexless for 10 years without it phasing her. Before all this started we would hook up once or twice a month, and I was fine with that. It's hard to find any time as it is we have two small children around the house and are worn out by the time we hit the sack. So yes, emotional affairs worry me with her. Physical affairs just aren't her thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

Kolors I don't want to insinuate anything but keep an open mind on that anything is possible


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## LongWalk

Of course it is not possible for you to cover all aspects of your discussions with every post, so a reader can misinterpret things. We did not know that your wife is extreme LD. You say that it has always been so with all the men she has been with, but that is based on what she has chosen to tell you. If she ever had better chemistry with someone, she chose not to tell you about it.

Does she even go solo? Also, your wife's sex drive can change in character as her reproductive life cycle nears the end. There are countless examples on TAM of women becoming more sexual. There is definitely a biorhythm to this.


But regardless of how you qualify the go-ahead-and-stay-out-late-without-approval, check-in or explanation, that is clearly license to stay out all night.


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## Kolors

It is totally a license to stay out all night. She's a big girl and she will do what she wants. I no longer care to try to control her coming and going. It will show where she is in this whole thing when she does go out.

She said in counseling this last week that she had only gone out about 4 times since our daughter was born (excluding the three weeks where she went out several times a week a few months ago.) Most of her hang out time consisted of while she was at work and then about 45 minutes after he shift ended. She then headed straight to the daycare to get the kids and straight home. This has been her routine every week day for almost 5 years. Her weekends were filled with doing whatever I wanted to do in terms of day trips or functions. She never even went to Target by herself really, we always loaded up the whole family and went. 

Really, we should have taken more time for ourselves this whole time. Her extremeness when she goes out is due to the fact that she rarely gets out. When I get out it isn't as extreme but I will look forward to an outing with my friends weeks ahead of time just because I do it so rarely.

The LD is just a sad truth. She talked to me about it when we first hooked up and let me know that she just wasn't a sexual person. She enjoyed sex when she had it but she never really craved it. There are some childhood issues that I won't really go into, but I am sure you can imagine on your own, that contribute to it. At our hottest freshly dating it was maybe once a week or every other week, where I was coming from dating loose women in the food industry and going at it at the drop of a hat.

I do really feel that if we do hope to repair any of this, or even scrap it and start anew, we both have to gain the ability to function independently of each other. She will have to get out of the house more often and find constructive things to go do and I will have to spend more time with my friends to give her time alone. This stuck up each others butt all the time was great when we started dating, but 12 years later we never progressed into a relationship that allowed outside contact, it was always us against the world.


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## Kolors

It is totally a license to stay out all night. She's a big girl and she will do what she wants. I no longer care to try to control her coming and going. It will show where she is in this whole thing when she does go out.

She said in counseling this last week that she had only gone out about 4 times since our daughter was born (excluding the three weeks where she went out several times a week a few months ago.) Most of her hang out time consisted of while she was at work and then about 45 minutes after he shift ended. She then headed straight to the daycare to get the kids and straight home. This has been her routine every week day for almost 5 years. Her weekends were filled with doing whatever I wanted to do in terms of day trips or functions. She never even went to Target by herself really, we always loaded up the whole family and went. 

Really, we should have taken more time for ourselves this whole time. Her extremeness when she goes out is due to the fact that she rarely gets out. When I get out it isn't as extreme but I will look forward to an outing with my friends weeks ahead of time just because I do it so rarely.

The LD is just a sad truth. She talked to me about it when we first hooked up and let me know that she just wasn't a sexual person. She enjoyed sex when she had it but she never really craved it. There are some childhood issues that I won't really go into, but I am sure you can imagine on your own, that contribute to it. At our hottest freshly dating it was maybe once a week or every other week, where I was coming from dating loose women in the food industry and going at it at the drop of a hat.

I do really feel that if we do hope to repair any of this, or even scrap it and start anew, we both have to gain the ability to function independently of each other. She will have to get out of the house more often and find constructive things to go do and I will have to spend more time with my friends to give her time alone. This stuck up each others butt all the time was great when we started dating, but 12 years later we never progressed into a relationship that allowed outside contact, it was always us against the world.


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## LongWalk

Your wife has never lived. She doesn't know now to relax and is timid and frigid. You love her in spite of the enormous difficulties that you will face in creating a new relationship.

It will be a huge challenge. If you ever reach the stage that she wants reconciliation, you must write your expectations and deal breakers down and share them. Why would undertake this, except for the sake of love and your children?


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## just got it 55

Kolors :If and when the timing is appropriate work primarily on the emotional bonding aspect the physical part is just not that important at the moment.

Trust and security must be gained.Humans can only move forward if thier safety is present phyiscal and / or emotional

Offer those in small measures along the process, an in the moment thing.

I fully agree with LW your composure is astounding 

She will gain respect from this

Keep this up. No steps backwards on the front.

Good Luck on the new Gig 

Keep us posted on that


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## Kolors

LongWalk said:


> Your wife has never lived.


Basically, yes. She has lived but it has been through other people. When I was driving our relationship and being the planner and entertainer she felt fulfilled. I feel like when I stopped being that guy and leading her in a direction constantly, she had nothing to focus on.


And thanks 55, I am typically a well composed person. The physical aspect of our relationship is on the back burner, as you can see from above it has never really been hugely important to her ever in her life. 

This leaving each other alone while at the house is about trust and security. She has to trust that she can come home each day and not deal with an over emotional mess of a confused husband. I take stuff to the extremes when I am lost and each thing that she has told me I have went to the full on extreme end of the spectrum without finding a happy, liveable medium.

I spoke to a mutual friend today who knows what we are going through and he told me that the thing my wife told him that he missed the most was that I always made her laugh. No matter how dire the circumstances, I could keep a light heart and cheer her up. 

Truth is, I lost me when I went from a kitchen to an office and never recovered. I am genuinely happy right now for the first time in 5 years each time I get ready for work. Even if I land this new day job, I plan to keep the night job for as long as I can manage because I go nuts without a kitchen.


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> Basically, yes. She has lived but it has been through other people. When I was driving our relationship and being the planner and entertainer she felt fulfilled. I feel like when I stopped being that guy and leading her in a direction constantly, she had nothing to focus on. *Here is where her work should begin*
> 
> 
> And thanks 55, I am typically a well composed person. The physical aspect of our relationship is on the back burner, as you can see from above it has never really been hugely important to her ever in her life. *Make it important when you know the time is right**Thats an issue*
> *But all in good time*
> This leaving each other alone while at the house is about trust and security. *She has to trust that she can come home each day and not deal with an over emotional mess of a confused husband*. I take stuff to the extremes when I am lost and each thing that she has told me I have went to the full on extreme end of the spectrum without finding a happy, liveable medium. *All things are about balance find it*
> 
> I spoke to a mutual friend today who knows what we are going through and he told me that the thing my wife told him that he missed the most was that I always made her laugh. No matter how dire the circumstances, I could keep a light heart and cheer her up. *SO MAKE HER LAUGH*
> 
> Truth is, I lost me when I went from a kitchen to an office and never recovered. I am genuinely happy right now for the first time in 5 years each time I get ready for work. Even if I land this new day job, I plan to keep the night job for as long as I can manage because I go nuts without a kitchen.


*Why do you allow your work to define you*

Clarify confused husband....... Seems to me she is confused ?

Believe me the Kitchen thing will get old

The work is good but focus on a career


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## LongWalk

just got it 55 said:


> Kolors I don't want to insinuate anything but keep an open mind on that anything is possible


:iagree:

This is an interesting observation, for the more you write about your relationship, the more it puzzles. The woman whom you could entertain and keep laughing but not awaken sexually, who is she?

I wonder if you know her inner thoughts, has she shared herself or been reserved. There are people who are private. I had an aunt who was a little stand offish. She was very intelligent, strong willed, but never was it her thing to open up her soul to others. I don't think my uncle ever closed the distance. She died a premature death, so I never got to know her as a teen or adult. I remain curious about her.

Are you curious about your wife or do you know her like a book? You have adjusted yourself to her and this has changed you, don't you think? It was not only your career change that dampened your exuberance for life, but even her lack of passion. 

Your desire to save your marriage would make more sense to me if you had experienced desire for each other. But she has never desired you and the explanation that she does not feel desire... is it true?

What has she left to experience in life? Is she only interested in security? Is that all you want?


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## just got it 55

I am not one to subscribe to the HD/LD theory absent the presence of philological conditions i.e. hormonal imbalance.

It is my contention that a woman that does not feel emotionally fulfilled will not be respondent to romance/sex. I think that is held by many so that surly is no news flash. 

This is why her (LD) is an issue. 
Emotional connection = Love which creates the romance and romantic thoughts…..Sex

Of course we know many other factors apply. You’re mentioning the possibility of abuse on some level naturally is cause for concern. 

So one could conclude that the possibility exists she should never have married you in the first place.

If that is the case you will know soon enough financial considerations notwithstanding.(is that really one word ?)

MC will be the only way to get to that truth.


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## sammy3

Kolors, 

I've been following your story from the beginning. I had issues in my marriage that you didn't have,but I did asked my husband to move out as your wife did to you. I didn't ask for a D and didn't want one, still dont. Didn't know, and still dont know, what I wanted, just knew I could continue with where I was. 

Short version of a long story, 2 plus years later, as we aren't living together yet, we are talking of getting our marriage back together, and just started MC again. He never gave up. He never stop believing, he never stopped trying, but,he did give me my space. 

One biggie I am facing right now though, is "how separated" we really were, as we really didnt set any guidelines. It's going to be something for us to talk about in mc and may have an outcome on how the R goes, so before you do separate, get it all understood between each other, what separation means to each other, because the last thing you need is more hurt. 

~sammy


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## Kolors

We tried to talk about separation and she never could really define what she wanted or needed. She really wanted me out of the house last week after I pushed her. Our counselor seems to be doing everything she can to calm us down before we hit that point. And yes, luckily there was no infidelity, or physical abuse, or horrible emotional trauma that would set off alarms. 

What we do have is a good old fashioned fallen apart marriage.

She also has not asked for a divorce. She said the word once. I asked her when we talked about separation if it was to ease into divorce or if it was to take stock on our relationship and she said she still didn't know but she wanted time to miss me and to see if she still loved me.

She has told me and our counselor that she still loves me but she is so hurt that she doesn't feel like another chance is something she can do right now. I can't blame her for feeling that way, I have sort of sucked for a while. The counseling is helping I feel but we have so very far to go.

Even with our "no talk" rule at the house we have still had to speak due to the children and daily logistics. Everything has been pleasant since Monday, even the talk about why we cannot afford to separate currently. We spoke briefly tonight about our daughter getting in trouble at dinner and our plans for the weekend.

Currently we have arranged separate entertainment for the weekend. I am working Saturday evening so she is going to go watch football with her friends until just before I need to head to work and then she will run home to take care of them. Sunday I am taking the kids to a friends house so they can play with their child and me and my friend can play some tabletop games. I have no idea what she plans to do while we are gone but I hope she gets some of the "space" that she keeps needing.

I am starting to understand that her space does involve not being around the old me. She does not enjoy being on her toes and waiting for me to crap on her evening or say something smart ass by accident that hurts her feelings. The less that I act like that the more that we have pleasant conversations and the more that she seems to react in positive ways to me.

Our biggest problem is that everything is so raw right now. Anything that the other one does sets us off. We jump the gun to be the aggressor I think. 

She came and asked me a little while ago if I minded watching the sleeping kids so she could go out for an hour or so. She is heading up to the restaurant that I work at to see a couple friends and to have a beer. I feel that she needs to unwind and that if she does things like this she will be less likely to go all out each time she leaves. 

My test tonight will be not getting wrapped up in when she gets home or what state she is in when she gets here. This specifically came up in our session this week as the one thing that she does that sets me off big time. She feels like she does not need to check in when she runs past the time that she stated that she will be home. I feel that it is disrespectful to come up with a time and then not call if your plans change or if you plan to stay later. I don't really care if she stays out until 10 or 2, I just want to know that she is OK. She says that she just gets wrapped up in conversation and doesn't bother to look at the time until it is too late. Then she knows that she is in trouble so she just makes it worse by not calling.

Tonight she said she would be out an hour or so and that I would see her by 10:30. I really hope that she makes good on it. I know she will not be out all night, she has to work early in the morning. What I am waiting to see is if she either comes home by the time that she set herself or if she texts me to not worry, she will be home at X time. I felt like I did really good in the fact that I didn't ask when she would be back, I let her offer a time and just said ok, have fun, I've got the kids.

For the "shes cheating on you" crowd, remember she is at my place of employment, in front of my coworkers.


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## Kolors

Also, this is the first time that she has been out of the house since we returned from vacation a couple weeks ago. The desperate to get away and have a good time wife seems to have gone away. Now I feel like she is trying to get out to relax for herself, not to try to stay away from me.


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## Kolors

Man it chaps my ass for her to be late the first time she has went back out. I really know that I shouldn't have expected anything less.

I know this, no way am I calling this time. I am sure its another case of "I was having fun and just didn't look at the time" or "I was having a conversation and didn't want to just cut it off." 

It really shouldn't get me this upset though. I can't help thinking that she is just doing it to see if I will break the no communication rule when she gets here. I was so excited to see her stick to a plan for once, I really let myself down this time.


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## Tobyboy

Relax dude! Act like you don't give a sh!t. She's f*kn with you! First, by going out to drink at your place of employment(wtf is up with that), second, staying out past her returned time. Do not let her get to you!


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## Kolors

I am trying not to but this is the one hot point of contention that was brought up in counseling on Monday. Seriously, the day before yesterday. She knows it makes me anxious and that I lose my cool when she takes off innocently and then comes home late without calling. 

It makes me feel like I am being baited into picking a fight so she can justify her feeling uncomfortable with me being around still. 

It's a small town, there are only so many places that people we know hang out. I am not concerned with where she is at or who all she is with, I am just pissed that its an hour past when she said she would be here with no calls or texts.


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## tom67

Kolors said:


> I am trying not to but this is the one hot point of contention that was brought up in counseling on Monday. Seriously, the day before yesterday. She knows it makes me anxious and that I lose my cool when she takes off innocently and then comes home late without calling.
> 
> It makes me feel like I am being baited into picking a fight so she can justify her feeling uncomfortable with me being around still.
> 
> It's a small town, there are only so many places that people we know hang out. I am not concerned with where she is at or who all she is with, I am just pissed that its an hour past when she said she would be here with no calls or texts.


If it's 3 or 4 hours then you can say just wanted to make sure you were still aliveotherwise screw it.


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## Tobyboy

Kolors said:


> I am trying not to but this is the one hot point of contention that was brought up in counseling on Monday. Seriously, the day before yesterday. She knows it makes me anxious and that I lose my cool when she takes off innocently and then comes home late without calling.
> 
> It makes me feel like I am being baited into picking a fight so she can justify her feeling uncomfortable with me being around still.
> 
> It's a small town, there are only so many places that people we know hang out. I am not concerned with where she is at or who all she is with, I am just pissed that its an hour past when she said she would be here with no calls or texts.


Self-sabotage!!!! It's going to get worst, buddy! Stay calm....do not say anything to her. It be best if you weren't up when she gets home. Stay in your space.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Yea it was just 50 mins. She had to come in the bedroom to get sleeping clothes so I saw her as he came in. I asked if she had a good time and she said yes, her an one if her girlfriends Hung out and caught up. I didn't mention the time or that I was amazingly upset. She sat here and talked to me for a minute, I looked over at the clock and she said "yea I know I'm late." I tool her I was just happy she made it home OK.

She did say something about knowing that I'm mad but I told her that I didn't care to talk about it, just remember that I didn't say anything to you about it and I did not start any drama tonight. She made some other guilty sounding comment and I just told her that it has to suck to drive home feeling like you were in trouble.

There really is no trust on this issue anymore. She is never going to be honest about leaving the house I feel. If it was a weekend night she wouldn't have been here until 3.

Leaving is starting to really feel like something I will have to do when I get a new job. I know that is what she has wanted. I just can't deal with the blatant disrespect.

On a positive note, this is the first time in years that she messed around and came home late that didn't end up in a fight. Oh how I wanted to launch into my typical speech but I've learned that it's just not worth it. At least of it comes up in our next session I can hold my head high on this one.

But really, I'm up too late being pissed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tobyboy

It's been said before......."Once a wife loses respect for her husband...it rarely comes back". 

Time to NUT UP!!! She wants freaking space? Tell her "there's the door". She wants to act single? There's the door!! 

If she wants out so badly...then she goes, but the kids stay and she still pays her share of of the bills. Stop wasting your money on MC. Save it for a shark lawyer.


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## Kolors

I could do that when I had a real job and a real schedule but right now someone has to be here with them when I'm not home. I don't have family here so I'd have to pay a sitter and would make negative money. I'm making just barely more then unemployment right now so I am kind of in no position to take a get out stand.

I sent a message to someone I know that's needing a roommate. If it's cheap enough I'll pay for the kids and their stuff. They don't deserve to be restricted due to is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tobyboy

Kolors said:


> I could do that when I had a real job and a real schedule but right now someone has to be here with them when I'm not home. I don't have family here so I'd have to pay a sitter and would make negative money. I'm making just barely more then unemployment right now so I am kind of in no position to take a get out stand.
> 
> I sent a message to someone I know that's needing a roommate. If it's cheap enough I'll pay for the kids and their stuff. They don't deserve to be restricted due to is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wait a minute....Do not leave your house!!!! Do you own or rent? 
Does your wife make good money? Doing what? Bartending?

Sorry man, I haven't read all your thread since I posted a while ago,


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## Kolors

She makes like. 25k a year working for the state. 

Man I hate anxiety, I still can't sleep.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

You make it sound as if all the fault in your marriage lies with you

It clearly does not

Learn to react by using you logic to understand her actions

The PA stuff you can do without if that is how you are reacting

Pay attention to that PA sh!t is very destructive it fact

extremely damaging.

Remember Keep an open mind anything is possible.

Are you working with a IC ? That anxiety needs to be addressed.

Do something that calms you.


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## happyman64

Ok Kolors

I am going to give you some advice from a guy that has been with the same woman for 27 years and married to her for 21.

Stop giving a sh!t when she comes home.

Because until you do she will not only keep doing it but use it against you.

Smile, be happy, stop looking at the clock when she is in front of you and stop caring what time she gets home.

You might call it disrespectful. I used to.

But my wife is a jabberjaw. She rarely saw her friends and just wanted to hang out and talk for hours.

Wanna know when she started coming home early? When I stopped *****ing about it. When I smiled and said I hope you had a great time.

When she would ask me how the kids were and I would tell her all the games we played or I took them out for ice cream or something fun to do.

She missed a fun time with our kids and me. I showed her pictures and she would look at me and say "I missed a good time". I would confirm she did with a smile and maybe next time you will be invited.....

Stop being a drag. Let her have her space. You know where she is and who she is with.

I no longer think it is disrespectful. She just needs her space to feel like she is just an individual at times. She needs to know she still has a life outside of her marriage and family.

Stop worrying. There is nothing you can do but support her.

When my wife goes out which is rare I go to sleep. She has a cell if she needs me in an emergency.

Try it.

Why not kiss her this morning and tell her you are glad she had a nice time out last night with her friend.

Then ask her if she heard any good gossip.....

Chill out. Stop worrying about her respecting you and instead work on your issues to improve yourself.

A strongman gets respect through his actions.

Now act.

HM


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## just got it 55

Spot on 

HM

I have been with my wife 40 years married for 35

when I found myself not being me for a multitude of reasons

I made a conscious change to get back to who I am

The man she fell in love with

Making her laugh lots of teasing in a very fun way

Returned to more affection

Made myself more fun to be around

Got my Alpha / Beta in proper balance
Regained my self confidence

It is sooooo important to re connect intimately (Not Just Sex) Don't push that now but it will be essential to a strong marriage moving forward

I short I stopped being Mr. Nice Guy

Not only has she responded My Adult Children have seen it and commented on it

All of these thing you can and will do .What can she do to help herself?

You should find a delicate way to communicate that.

I can’t stress enough the importance of individuality as HM so wisely advises

We can’t lose ourselves to work, friendships or spouses or even a great cause

Find your balance


55


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## Kolors

I can't give her a kiss or talk about her night, we are not to speak about anything for a week still.

Yes, I do still call it disrespectful. Much like yours, mine rarely, like once a year typically, goes out and when she does it she never comes home on time. She used to its jump my bones when she came home but we were younger and didn't have kids to wake up with loud 3am drunk sex. I really am trying to see that as her being her but it is hard to adjust to. Last time I just went to bed and didn't ask the next morning.

I freaked her out last night by sitting down on the other couch in the living room at 1 am while I was anxious pacing around the house. I saw her and my daughter snuggled up and they looked beautiful. I sat down to take them in, hoping for some calm, and I startled the wife. She asked me what I was doing and I told her I was just looking at them and hoped it would calm me down so I could sleep. I apologized and came back to bed. 10 mins later she came in to my room asking me what was up, to go ahead and say what I needed to say. I told her the truth, I was just looking at them sleep, it calms me down. I have several things stressing me right now and we are not supposed to be speaking so I haven't shared yet. She believed that I had came in to start yet another wake up and let's argue fight.

We talked briefly this morning and I told her I was done stressing or calling her when she's out. She told me we are still friends and I can come to her with my problems. Yes, demoted to friend she said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Oh she can talk to you but you cannot give her a kiss.

Do me a favor.

Lean over and punch yourself in the balls.

Feel the pain. Savor it. God gave us balls for a reason.

To use them.

You need to calm down. 

You need to get your act under control.

You are acting like a man starving for affection and knowing he is going to lose his family.

Stop it.

Lecturing her about what time it is, is needy.
Pacing the halls is needy.

Giving her a peck on the cheek, telling her you hope she enjoyed herself last night and wishing her a great day at work is using your balls.

Start using them Kolors.

Maybe you and your wife do not belong together. Maybe you do.

But the pushing and pulling everyday has got to stop.

The texts have to stop. 

The arguments and neediness gave to stop.

And only you can control that Kolors.

HM


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## Kolors

I had to pace the halls last night. I think I am going to have to get my prescription raised or something. I'd have went for a walk but it was below freezing outside.

We are not fighting any more and any talk that we have is quick and to the point.

I'll cut out texting anything to her today. I have a paper to write tonight so I won't have to worry about talking or trying for affection of any sort. 

It feels to me like she sees me ignoring the whole thing and it makes her do something to fire the whole situation up all over again. I am trying to not react and doing much better than in the past but I really feel like she is baiting me sometimes.

When he asked this morning, I told her the anxiety Was mostly over the job search, a court case from my old job that I'm involved in, and writing papers from school. I told her I had not talked to her about it since we are on restriction. She said the counselor said we needed to not talk about us, not that we couldn't talk about problems. That's when she said I was her friend still and could talk to her about my problems as long as they didn't involve us. That's when she said, yes you've been demoted to friend.

Totally bating me into that discussion. She just said it wasn't the first tin she had said that but apparently the first time I've listened. I didn't bother with the looming fight, I just said "OK, I hadn't seen it that way" and went in with my morning.

If I wanted to live with a friend it would be one that wasn't stressful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

You went from having some control over your emotions to a meltdown that you know is destroying your marriage even further. You are messing up with all this drama. It has gone from you establishing yourself as the spouse with perspective and realism to the rejected husband with needs and insecurity.

You promised not to make her commit to coming home at some particular time and yet you wanted to know and then were upset about her being late. What happened to your original promise? Why make a promise you cannot keep?

Your wife is now constantly testing and probing in violation of the NC regime. She wants to blow things up. She has no compunction about escalating the conflict. 

You need to get grip on yourself.

Given the pattern that you now have going, you should expect your wife to even more to undermine you. She has demoted you to friend and she is going to start sleeping with other men. Furthermore, since you are codependent, she may even leak information about her love life to gain more emotional reaction from you.


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## sammy3

Kolors, 

First, it is just plain damn rude how your wife treats you as far as tardiness is concerned. Plain and simple. She is a b***h. Sorry. I'm a female. I know how we work...

Your relationship is just so unbalance at this time that no matter how much you try it's not going to work. You've got to balance it. Do as she is doing. Pull away, as hard as it is...

Treat her back as she is treating you. Do you need to collect her at a certain time? Make her wait, 40 mins, in the rain, "Oooops!" 
Promise you'll be home so she can get out in time..., "Sorry hon, forgot to look at my watch." 

Sadly, sometimes, "what is good for the goose, is also good for the gander." 

You are doing so much what my husband did to me and it just pushed me farther away. Women want a man that is sensitive, but knows when to be strong and lead at the same time, within themselves, for themselves, to show courage, to be brave even when we know it is hurting... 

Believe me, I feel your pain, loud and clear... 

~sammy


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## Kolors

I didn't ask her for any info about when she was coming home. She asked if I'd watch the kids so she could go out for a bit and I said sure. She offered up a time, I didn't ask. I didn't call her or text her or sit in the couch waiting for her to be home. I was in bed when she arrived. I promised to not say anything to her about my being upset, I can't promise to not be upset on the inside.

I do agree that she wants to escalate the situation. She called me out for not sitting with her the last three nights like we are supposed to be doing. She wants to prove to herself that she can only be miserable when I'm around I think.

And really, she is not out hooking up with guys. I now you guys keep saying and thinking it but as of now it just isn't happening. That is a line that neither if us will cross and we have discussed it. I talked to a friend today and she sat with two friends all night and then left for home.

I'm going to pick up the pace on finding a place to live at least for a month or two. I'm thinking about a hotel for the next couple nights. I have my IC tomorrow .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Sammy is a woman and she called it for what it is.

Again, you wife's personality, which you describe as odd, is difficult for us to gage. You claim she is extremely LD. Why then is she anxious to end you marriage? She is either looking for a single celibate life or a pair relationship with a new man.

Sometimes people do just want to be alone. That is not the majority of women in their 30s. They still have some romantic dream.

If she is looking for a new guy, she not going to respect you in this process by definition. From her point of view you should be gone already. Coming home late is just way to provoke you into leaving. 

To save your marriage will be difficult, and since sexual passion from her side has been weak for a long time, frankly what is the point? But if you want to change that dynamic, you need a radical change. You need to leave her ASAP and be a happy guy without her. That may change her perception of you, but it is unlikely.

Separate, make more money, take care of your kids, get a girl friend. When those things are done maybe she'll want you again but if you have go through the process your will have detached in any event.

What might worry you is what sort of mother she is going to be after you split. Is she going to have the energy to pursue her romantic life and take good care of your children?


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## Kolors

I just booked a room for the weekend. I called her and let her know that I couldn't stay in the home anymore. I really wanted to do the not speak thing but it was going to be impossible right now. I told her it would be for a few days and I would let her know where after I checked in.

I told her that I there was a chance of me breaking the rules then I needed to separate myself from the situation. I also told her that as long as I felt like questioning her and as long as she disrespected me then we couldn't do anything mutually.

She cried of course and asked me what to tell our daughter. I said tell her I'm in a work trip, I'll still pick her up tomorrow and deliver her to her work at the usual time. I told her that I now need the space and I hope I can come home calm in a few days , I just need to clear my head an make some hard decisions.

She said that when we fought Sunday all she wanted was a few days of me gone to see how it felt, she had no intent on forcing me out then. She knows we need this and neither of us know if it's four days or four months that will work. She hopes that time without me makes her miss me still.

I plan to make no calls, texts, or emails until I come home. This is going to be rough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

Kolors: The very last person in the world to let down is yourself

By doing that you let everybody down in your own eyes because you should have expectations of yourself. Reasonable but as high a standard as you can maintain and to continually raise those standards.

Look at those standards which you have set for yourself.
Are you meeting them?

By your narrative I would say you are not

Don’t let yourself down


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## Kolors

She's rushing the end because she is afraid that if I am given another chance that I will just end up breaking her heart again. He says it has taken her quite a while to get there, so long that she doesn't know if she can come back. This is the biggest reason she wants space, to see if the longing returns. She loves me but she's afraid to be in love with me again.

And she has stated that she just wants to be alone. She does not feel the need for a partner since she feels that she will just end up in another relationship that will be doomed to fail. She wants to worry about her and the kids without any else's opinions. She has no need to file for divorce at the moment, she just wants room to breathe for a while.

The balance in our lives has honestly been shifted to her. Each time it starts to level out, she tips the scales. I'm just so tired.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

This weekend is about supporting myself and trying to not let myself down. I can't be there and fight her or enable her to go run around or I've let myself down. I just can't do that anymore. Granted that I didn't fight her last night over being late but who's to say she won't want to go out again tonight? She already wanted to go somewhat for a couple hours on Saturday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> This weekend is about supporting myself and trying to not let myself down. I can't be there and fight her or enable her to go run around or I've let myself down. I just can't do that anymore. *Granted that I didn't fight her last night over being late but who's to say she won't want to go out again tonight? She already wanted to go somewhat for a couple hours on Saturday.*_Posted via Mobile Device_


OK Kolors 

Do the hard 180 NOW

I think there will be more outside influences on the horizon

and you clearly are getting a sense of that

What are you not admitting to yourself ?


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> She's rushing the end because she is afraid that if I am given another chance that I will just end up breaking her heart again. He says it has taken her quite a while to get there, so long that she doesn't know if she can come back. This is the biggest reason she wants space, to see if the longing returns. She loves me but she's afraid to be in love with me again.
> 
> And she has stated that she just wants to be alone. She does not feel the need for a partner since she feels that she will just end up in another relationship that will be doomed to fail. She wants to worry about her and the kids without any else's opinions. She has no need to file for divorce at the moment, she just wants room to breathe for a while.
> 
> The balance in our lives has honestly been shifted to her. Each time it starts to level out, she tips the scales. I'm just so tired.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kolors

I know your wife says she is hurt.

but there is nothing more hurtful than Divorce or Infidelity and Divorce.

She wants to only worry about herself and the kids. But not have to worry about you, the father of her children and husband.

She is selfish. How unrealistic is this idea. That is like dissolving the marriage as if it never happened and you do not exist.

She does not love you or long for you. That is the issue she is not willing to deal with.

And that is why you need to do the 180. Because think your wife has bigger issues than you have ever had. The fact that she never dealt wit her past and current issues are preventing her from having a fulfilling relationship with you.

I wonder if she should be the person to leave for a few months.

Could you be the strong spouse in the marriage to truly Let Her Go?

HM


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## LongWalk

Is this an accurate history of your relationship:

You were an exciting guy. Had sense of humor. Made OK money. You had had relationships with other women, i.e., you were desirable. You wanted her. She fell in love with you but without much sexual passion, i.e., she chose you for stability. You became co dependent.

She did not have much social autonomy. There are plenty of couple like this, not at all unusual. You became depressed by your desk job. She lost her limited sexual attraction for you. She began to resent you and actually does not want much to do with you.

However, she is still codependent and in need of emotional support. This, though lacks, any future. She is looking for a new life and decided this many months ago. She is still unable to imagine life with or without you. But she doesn't have to because she wants to keep part of you accessible for her convenience.

How long will this unresolved situation last?


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## BK23

Your wife sucks. I'm not jumping on the infidelity bandwagon, but she is certainly disordered. 

This may come off as a bit harsh, but please keep in mind I like you, and I am rooting for you:

You are Co-Dependent. Capital C, Capital D. Your wife gives you her insane, disordered, illogical reasons for what is happenning, and you adopt them wholesale. Take a moment to really think about some of the bullsh!t she has thrown at you, and how you have lapped it up. It's time to stop stressing over this awful woman, and start working on yourself.


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## Kolors

HM, if she left then we would lose our home. She will not be able to pay part of anything and would barely have the money to survive, much like my situation. 

And I really do not feel like the strong one here. Could I ask her to leave? Nope I don't think I have it in me. She is not a soul searcher she is a runner. She won't leave and work on herself, she will continue to believe she is not flawed, get into a relationship after we divorce, and drag my kids through this with another man. I totally feel that it would go that way. The next man would end up in the same boat I am in. 

I have hopes that more therapy would show her that and she is still open to it. I feel like our therapist is so close to breaking through to her and showing her what is going in. We haven't Even touched my issues yet in therapy.

It's me checking into a suite to unload this weekend. If it were here checking in there would be no silence. She would run to a friend and do everything she could to ignore what is going on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

and BK, I agree, this it totally illogical coming from her. My wife has always been rock solid in our marriage as far as I new. There was one time, several years ago, where she thought a new person that her job had hired was cut and it wracked her with guilt. It was bad enough that she had felt like she had violated our marriage by just being amused by him. 

I still hate when you refer to her as awful, even thought that is the way she is acting currently. It is so bad to hear people that know us chime in on what is going on. All of them agree that they never saw anything coming like this and that they couldn't imagine us splitting up. I had a couple yesterday tell me that they had just talked about hoping that their marriage was as good and as long as ours has been. I didn't even drop that bomb on them.

Several of our female friends swear it is hormonal or post-partum and that if I ride her out long enough it will wear off, but seriously, how damn long can someone just take it? She just doesn't seem concerned with doing things that will make me question her.

I may not be giving myself enough credit the BS as is due. I have started my fair share of it and often over things that were innocent that I just read into. Once I saw things were bad with us, everything she did became a signal or had some sort of significance.

She has told me several times that she believes that if I had just left for a few days when she first started this then we wouldn't be where we are now. That my bad handling of the situation pushed a dangerous situation off the edge. In retrospect, if I could know now how little effect all of the crying, and begging, and blame, and distrust would have, I never would have done it. 

I regret most everything that I have done since she dropped the "What would you say if I got an apartment" line on me months ago. Aside from the better bond that I have with my kids, the things that I have learned about people from reading, and the award winning therapist that we have found, everything else has been rubbish.


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## Tobyboy

She wants space...space from you...she's getting that this weekend. No reason for her to be out all night then..right? 

Make no excuses for her when find out different.


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## Kolors

Tobyboy said:


> Make no excuses for her when find out different.


Wouldn't think of it. I really don't even want to ask what she did. I told her when I talked to hear earlier that I really hoped that she sat at home and did some soul searching of some sort or at least stopped running for a little while. There are copies of divorce busters and five love languages sitting on our living room table. I hope she takes time to read them instead of play on facebook all weekend.

I did load Five Love Languages to her iPad a couple weeks ago and she started reading it.


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## Tobyboy

Stop telling her what to do already!!! Geez...you make sure you go out every night and stay out late and have fun.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

OK here you go LM, here is an accurate version of our history as I can best recall.

2000-2001 cant remember

We met in the alley between the bar she worked at and the restaurant that I ran. She thought I was hot enough stuff that the entire bar staff was on alert to tell her any time I went outside so she could rush out and pretend it was an accident. We both thought each other was pretty hot stuff but neither of us made a move.

A month or so went by and through a strange chain of events, we ended up riding in the backseat of a friends car on our way to a comedy show an hour away. She had been asked to go by a buddy of mine and I was a last minute invite when I had called him to see what he was doing that night. We chalked that up to fate. Needless to say, I joked and cut up with her all night at the show, then we drank and talked the whole way back to our town. Once we got here she decided that she would just stay at my place and let me give her a ride home than to get a ride from my buddy. We really never left each others side from that point on. The next day we were out getting her a new piercing and me a new tattoo, a few weeks later she was sleeping at my place and I was at hers as well. 

The first years had passion, love, deep talk, and yes even sex when we found time. There was a point where she put aside her sexual issues to please me, I haven't thought about those times in years but yes, they were there.

In 2003 or so we had begun plans to get married (which we paid for ourselves) and started to buy our first home. It was stressful having on real help from our families on either issue but we made due. I had a low paying but high learning job and she was still bar tending. She had graduated with her Psychology degree but had not been able to find anything in her field, I was still in accounting school and cooking full time at night.

We had a relationship that revolved around us being together two nights a week and Sunday mornings. I would stay up until 3AM most nights and we would hang out until the sun came up on the couch watching TV or at a local bar that stayed open until 7am. We did not pursue children or chase big careers, we just lived in the moment and did as we pleased. We were married and closed on our first home the same weekend. Our honeymoon consisted of us moving, redecorating and getting settled into our new life. 

It was around this time that I had started my new job since I wanted to find a way to better provide for her and get ready to start a grown up family. My pay basically doubled and I was working from 8 until 4:30 each day. She kept her night job and I would see her in the mornings on the weekend and the evenings on nights the bar was closed. I no longer stayed up until 3am to see her but I would swing by her job to say hi so we could stay connected. We rode this out until 2006 when I accepted an offer to come run my fathers construction company in Atlanta.

There were some issues with trust with my father since I didnt really know him all that well as we had not really been close in a decade but everything seemed legit. We took this as our big break to leave our smallish town and do something that would pay extremely well and give me a strong career. Little did we know that in 2006, the world would start grinding to a hault and building would stop in the residential market. A few weeks after we purchased our house the paychecks started bouncing and I had to go two months before I could cash any of them. We had purchased a beautiful house and were ready to start a family in it but harsh reality hit and we jumped back into restaurant mode.

I got a pastry chef job in the mornings and a cook job at night, she got a retail job in the mornings and a waitress job at night. We both had the same day off each week so we could relax and actually see each other. For a while we were making ends meet with the occasional lapse on cable or phones for a few days but all in all we had adapted and overcome. 

I never realized how bad that failure shocked her. She bottled up the resentment of my moving her over to a strange town, purchasing a house we couldnt afford, and leaving her in our home town for several months while I got established in the business (I commuted four hours home on the weekends). After two or three months of nonstop grinding, she decided that it was too much for her. She basically told me that she was heading back to our town, if I wanted to be with her then I would know where she is.

As luck would have it, a tenant of ours did not pay the rent so we evicted her, packed up our stuff, and went home. We began a two year long process of short selling our home (lost 60k on it) and got our old jobs back. I knew that she still held a grudge against my father for letting us move over there and fail but I didn't know just how deep the experience wounded her. We had fights about it that always ended in, I am sorry that I forced us into that situation, it will never happen again. All big decisions were much more scrutinized before then.

One thing that began in 2006 that I forgot, we started playing online games. We had played some before but when we were in separate states, we played ALOT. Each night we would log on and run around killing stuff and talking for hours. It was better than being on the phone since we already played console games when we were home. The experience continued when she moved over and our free time was now taken up by playing games, cheering each other on, and generally wasting our time. When we moved home in 2007, we still played games from basically the time we got home until the time we went to sleep. We would be exhausted most nights from the stress of competitive gaming so what little sex we did have started to become even more sporadic. We still loved each other but I think we developed an addiction that over stepped its bounds.

Anyway in 2008 we started trying to have a child and she was pregnant a few months later. We did have sex nearly every day while trying, to the point where some nights it was just about getting it over and hoping for the best lol. Once she was pregnant things started to go bad for her. She began to think that I didn't want her because of her looks. Before, she taught ballet and was quite small, she went up to 170ish with the first child. We still had sex until she was 4 or 5 months pregnant and then I stopped. I wasnt because of her looks, it was just a mental thing for me. I just did not feel comfortable having sex with her while there was a child growing inside her. I know there was no risk but I had some sort of block that just stopped it at some point. I also quit getting close to her in bed at night because she was either hot, or uncomfortable, or tossing and turning nonstop. I spent the last few months of her pregnancy scooted over as far as I could get in order to give her room for all the pillows and belly.

She still talks about the delivery of our child. It took 36 hours! We were kinda broke at the time due to her not working but still making ends meet. The day after our child was born I took off for an hour to run to a Christmas party to pick up my Christmas bonus. I didn't eat, drink, or be merry, I just stayed long enough to get my envelope and right back to the hospital. I spent one night at home getting it all cleaned up and ready. I also managed to come down with Mono so I could not come in contact with the baby for six weeks. That was a killer. She went crazy dealing with the newborn alone for that long. Granted I do not believe we went that entire time but until I felt better I had to stay away from them both unless I was wearing a mask. I was also too tired to function normally due to the mono and even worse with the baby up with colic. We muscled through it but she built up more resentment due to the xmas party and the lack of support the first six weeks.

We did return to sex after the baby was born but it was rather infrequent, maybe twice monthly which is really all I ever asked for. I cannot say that we were madly in romantic love at this point but I know that we still loved each other. We made due with what we had and had as much fun as we could. We tried once to get back into playing games but we just couldn't. As parents we couldn't just put a kid down and play games. My work picked up, she returned to her old job but now she worked in the kitchen instead of bartending.

She never remembers it but she was miserable working under the people that she worked under for the next few years (09-10). Her direct supervisor was lazy and hired an ex boyfriend from 15 years prior to work with them. She would call me crying from work about how mean they all were or how someone did something to her for no reason. Each time I would either drop what I was doing and drive to her job for lunch or talk her through it until she could stop crying and go back inside. Now, she seems to say it was never that rough but I would have to get off calls almost weekly over it.

We also had an issue with my job as I was laid off, then rehired but demoted, then promoted with no raise or insurance the month after our daughter was born. Luckily I still had income coming in but my wife never forgave my job for letting me go the month after the baby was born. Still to this day she hates the man that did it. HATES.

My job really picked up and the company was purchased buy a much larger competitor. My pay increased but so did my hours. I was working 45 hours a week, not it was closer to 65 with many nights and weekends. We were thankful for the money but there were many nights where I would keep working and just think that she understood what I was doing. I didn't understand until much later than she was building resentment of my job and that it was going to be such a huge issue. I was lined up for a promotion in October of 2011 and she was actually proud of me. She knew that my hard work had paid off and that I had got the job that I wanted so badly. 

That same month we found out she was pregnant with our second child and my mother was killed at her job. My life pretty much halted. I never recovered from my moms death. I went through the motions with the second pregnancy, I really cant recall anything about it. I know there was a scary point when she had a complication, but in general we had a healthy baby boy in June of 2012. I can honestly say that I am sure that I neglected her and my daughter from October 2011 until a few months ago.

All of my anxiety and depression issues came to light earlier this year when I started having tremendous job stress. I bottled it all up and started having panic attacks and eventually took vacation just to avoid work. Luckily I got medicated for high BP, a vitamin deficiency, and the anxiety. 

Since the meds, I have felt like a new man. Her first talk about separation woke me up and I turned around my life 180. I now hang out with the kids each day and help with the baby. I do the domestic stuff and try my best to stay cheery around the house.

This pretty much is as honest as I can be. The first third was great, the second third was wishy washy with great times and mediocre, the last two years were horrible.

Id point her to this thread to make corrections if I could but I really feel that I covered it all. Christ that took too long.


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## Kolors

Ha, we just spoke so she would know if I intended on picking our daughter up from school tomorrow and if I was going to actually meet her with said daughter at her job.

I told her that I had my first real appointment with my IC tomorrow and she was happy about that. We had a bit of talk about yesterday and this morning but what finally stuck out is that I was upset that I had let myself down for getting angry that she was late and that I really wanted to talk about it instead of just blow it off.

She then dropped a bombshell on me - "You are acting totally crazy, just like your ex-girlfriend. I haven't lied about anything except coming home times, I haven't cheated, I haven't made plans to secretly leave you for some other guy, I haven't ****ed some guy at a bar, I have simply hung out with my two friends. I used to see them like 20 hours a week, now I see them 2 hours a week. You have gone insane since this all started. At first I thought something could be worked out if we separated for a bit and I started missing you, but you have went insane, like, your exgirlfriend insane." 

The chick she is referring to is absolutely clinically insane. Everything she said or did just dripped of crazy. My wife told me that since that day I have done every bat**** crazy thing possible. I have been emotional day in and day out, I've read into stuff that just simply isn't there, I've been concerned with the wrong things and threw my stuff at things that totally didn't matter to her. Every time she suggests something I wait a couple weeks and suggest it myself. Each time we talk I try to turn the conversation into something deep rather that just talking. I drip self help and psychobabble. I have made myself insane.

She won with that comment. I know a lot of the things that she has blamed on me are total BS, but I am going to say she hit the nail on the head there. I've thought her assessments of me until this point were crazy when she would say that she is waiting to see me settle back into a happy medium because she knows I can't keep up like this forever. She didn't mean that I couldn't keep doing house work and playing with the kids, she meant that I couldn't keep up this frantic fix myself by doing everything constantly.

I apparently didn't need to change myself, I just need to be myself. In trying to change to meet her needs I totally went off the deep end and became a crazy person. I called one of my buddies and asked him and he agreed. I tend to be an easy going guy that lets most emotional stuff roll off my back but right now I am absorbing it all like a sponge. Each day I read more and think more and each day I get a little bit further from being myself.

I plan to reread my thread this weekend and see how many times I have just jumped the gun. I hope my IC can help me with it tomorrow. I need to get back to me. There are days where I am me, and those are the days that we have had conversations at the house and smiled. There are way more days that I am becoming this other super sensitive a-hole who dwells on his feelings and the way people around him effect him.

My goal for the next 3 days, put on my big boy pants. Stop getting on the internet and crying about my wife and her drama and my reacting to stuff that just isn't there. 

Time to write a paper, I am good at that. Really can't believe that it took a wife, and now two friends (lol just got off the phone) to tell me that I have went off the deep end for me to see it.


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## LongWalk

Kolors,

That was the story of my marriage but of the course the details were different. Okay, my ex and I had great sex life but when economic problems came and I did not cope well, our sex life tanked. I haven't written much about my marriage on my thread. I wish that I had found TAM or something that would have given me insight earlier in my life. I would done things differently. You would have done things differently. But here we are.

Life just rolls on. 

Ironic that your wife studied psychology. LostLove71's WAW/cheater wife go a masters in counselling. ReGroup's crazy ex is a counsellor. People who have problems are sometimes drawn to the subject of mental health because they feel uncomfortable. Maybe your wife is not mentally ill, but for all the psychology she studied she doesn't have much insight.

She takes things personally. I guy fired you and rehired and demoted you. To me that sounds like some sort of corporate restructuring that no one in the business world would take too personally. The US economy has gone through convulsions vomiting up ordinary people who had the misfortune to work for the company at the wrong time. 

No wonder you return to the restaurant industry. People still have to eat and America is addicted to eating out, nothing wrong with it, just saying that demand is steady.

LostLove also struggled with relocation. My marriage also suffered from moves that took my ex away from everyone she knew. Not everybody is equipped to deal with new environments.

From all that you have written – kind of cool to go back and remember the past; it's almost as if you are a journalist or historian interviewing yourself – perhaps you can realize some gains.

1) You can copy this history and give to the MC to read. That will save time explaining things to her;

2) You can also give it to your wife to read on the drive over;

The fact that the MC sees you as deserving of pro bono therapy is enormously positive. It suggests that she likes you. You are nice people and need help. She believes there is hope or she wouldn't waste her time. I would make an effort to pay her something. You're a pastry chef. Bake her something nice.

If your wife reads what you have written and says, I know all of this and sees nothing new, insightful or inspiring, then I would say that you are in big trouble. She is truly indifferent, for she ought want to add her comments and footnotes. If she gives her side, that would be encouraging. She may leave feeling more positive that you understand her. That is important for love. Someone understands you – that means everything, especially if it is your wife.

Ask yourself now, if you were to win $1.5 million in a lottery, would your wife be happy that now you could solve your problems and live happily together or would she be happy that at last you could solve your problems and happily divorced?

If you think her reaction would be the latter, I say scotch your marriage. For everyone has already won the lottery by being alive. If she doesn't want to fight on with you at her side after all you have been through, well fvck her. She doesn't love you and and is disloyal. Let her be a free agent.

If you think she would reflexively see it as you two won the lottery together hurray, then you are still potentially on the same team.

Maybe this seems too black and white, but the challenge you face is the clock. You are separating. Time is running out. I don't see how separating will lead to falling in love down the road. You'll just see each other less and feel less love, less hate and more indifference.

The negative twist in your situation is your lack of attraction for each other. I don't see how you can overcome that if the chemistry is gone. Why would you want to save your marriage merely to return to poor quality sex life of the past 6 years? You actually hope for much, much more. Or?

It's amazing that babies come when marriages and sex lives are waning. Having children forces couples to work together as parents will separating them as lovers, admittedly an unoriginal observation but how many young couples thought it would never happen to them?


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## LongWalk

Kolors said:


> Ha, we just spoke so she would know if I intended on picking our daughter up from school tomorrow and if I was going to actually meet her with said daughter at her job.
> 
> I told her that I had my first real appointment with my IC tomorrow and she was happy about that. We had a bit of talk about yesterday and this morning but what finally stuck out is that I was upset that I had let myself down for getting angry that she was late and that I really wanted to talk about it instead of just blow it off.
> 
> She then dropped a bombshell on me - "You are acting totally crazy, just like your ex-girlfriend. I haven't lied about anything except coming home times, I haven't cheated, I haven't made plans to secretly leave you for some other guy, I haven't ****ed some guy at a bar, I have simply hung out with my two friends. I used to see them like 20 hours a week, now I see them 2 hours a week. You have gone insane since this all started. At first I thought something could be worked out if we separated for a bit and I started missing you, but you have went insane, like, your exgirlfriend insane."
> 
> The chick she is referring to is absolutely clinically insane. Everything she said or did just dripped of crazy. My wife told me that since that day I have done every bat**** crazy thing possible. I have been emotional day in and day out, I've read into stuff that just simply isn't there, I've been concerned with the wrong things and threw my stuff at things that totally didn't matter to her. Every time she suggests something I wait a couple weeks and suggest it myself. Each time we talk I try to turn the conversation into something deep rather that just talking. I drip self help and psychobabble. I have made myself insane.
> 
> She won with that comment. I know a lot of the things that she has blamed on me are total BS, but I am going to say she hit the nail on the head there. I've thought her assessments of me until this point were crazy when she would say that she is waiting to see me settle back into a happy medium because she knows I can't keep up like this forever. She didn't mean that I couldn't keep doing house work and playing with the kids, she meant that I couldn't keep up this frantic fix myself by doing everything constantly.
> 
> I apparently didn't need to change myself, I just need to be myself. In trying to change to meet her needs I totally went off the deep end and became a crazy person. I called one of my buddies and asked him and he agreed. I tend to be an easy going guy that lets most emotional stuff roll off my back but right now I am absorbing it all like a sponge. Each day I read more and think more and each day I get a little bit further from being myself.
> 
> I plan to reread my thread this weekend and see how many times I have just jumped the gun. I hope my IC can help me with it tomorrow. I need to get back to me. There are days where I am me, and those are the days that we have had conversations at the house and smiled. There are way more days that I am becoming this other super sensitive a-hole who dwells on his feelings and the way people around him effect him.
> 
> My goal for the next 3 days, put on my big boy pants. Stop getting on the internet and crying about my wife and her drama and my reacting to stuff that just isn't there.
> 
> Time to write a paper, I am good at that. Really can't believe that it took a wife, and now two friends (lol just got off the phone) to tell me that I have went off the deep end for me to see it.


Everything that HappyMan and other TAMers have told you over and over is to shut up and stop discussing your anxieties over and over with your wife. TAM has not gotten you into psychobabble, but suggested that you not engage in relationship chatter all the time and concentrate on getting your head in order.

If you need to take break from TAM, do so.


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## happyman64

LongWalk said:


> Everything that HappyMan and other TAMers have told you over and over is to shut up and stop discussing your anxieties over and over with your wife. TAM has not gotten you into psychobabble, but suggested that you not engage in relationship chatter all the time and concentrate on getting your head in order.
> 
> If you need to take break from TAM, do so.


:lol:

Kolors

LW just made his shortest post ever. 

Listen to him. Listen to us. Just turn yourself off. Shut up.

And listen.

To your wife.
To your friends.
To yourself.

The key is to get back to the guy who loved himself those few years ago.

Because a happy guy is a guy who makes happiness for others. The others want to be around him.

Go find you.

HM


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## Kolors

Agreed. I just had a friend call me after I sent her a text and she told me I really need to sit down tomorrow and discuss depression with my therapist. I thought it was something that I just snapped out of a couple months ago but really I was just getting worse.

She had me go through some of the writings in my notebook and they are pretty far out there. I've kept meticulous notes as to everything that my wife has done that made me feel the least bit slighted.

My wife keeps telling me things that I have said and done that I do not believe, she tells me that I turn minor things into giant issues.

As you can see from the length of my posts, I am wordy as hell so each small talk turns into a lecture of epic proportions. 

I have been writing my wife letters and notes that I bet seem bat sh!t crazy if I sat down and read them. After I spoke to my wife today, I stopped by the house on my way to the hotel and destroyed a note that I left her. I read it and sure enough, it was pretty out there. I sent her a text today when I was loading my car up just to say goodbye blah blah blah, it was just overboard.

I am wondering how much of all this my wife has really done and how much of it I have drummed up or brought on myself by not taking the advice to shut the hell up.

Really, my notebook is just creepy. I don't know if it is going to make it back home with me on Sunday. If she ever got into that notebook there is no reason she wouldn't want to be around me.


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## Kolors

Shes also making me email her the paper I am writing tonight for one of my classes before I submit it to make sure I haven't snuck some crazy in there somewhere as well lol.


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## just got it 55

Kolors Your personal story is becoming quite revealing
To the point that you may be doubting your sanity

This must be a frightening situation for you this condition can be terrifying.

Stay away from the panic button
Remember you pulled yourself through some very dark periods. Give yourself some credit for that.

I suggest you turn the world off (TAM) for a bit

The advice and insight you are getting here from LW & HM64 is invaluable follow through on it

I hope I have been of some help by asking you to look inward for your answers

Now I think you need to get help from your IC and your closest most trusted friends.

Keep talking to someone be with your children as much as possible. They will keep you focused on what is important.

Save yourself first I think your marriage at this point is a secondary concern.

Sorry you lost your Mom suddenly and tragically. That’s hard to overcome. My wife lost both her parents 9 months apart. It took her years to get through it.

She was only 26 years old with 3 children to care for and a POS husband that I was at the time.

But she made it through. You have no idea where you can draw strength from.

55


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## sammy3

Kolors said:


> Shes also making me email her the paper I am writing tonight for one of my classes before I submit it to make sure I haven't snuck some crazy in there somewhere as well lol.


You're funny! 

~sammy


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## Kolors

sammy3 said:


> You're funny!
> 
> ~sammy


I can be when I am not a total panic monkey. I kind of look forward to my IC tomorrow and seeing if he thinks I need any sort of treatment for depression. 

I know I have pissed my wife off at least 100 times (she went to school for psychology) by saying people with depression just need to buck up and get cheery. Now I can see why she would fight me on that one. I would love to do that right now.

After my session I have to work in the AM, get my daughter, drop her off to her mom, then head in for my night shift. I'd like to stop in and see my son tomorrow night but I am sure I can hold out until Sunday. The wife need space and still is not terribly happy that we are too poor at the moment to properly separate. I do miss my home, all my stuff is there. For some reason I packed like two weeks worth of clothes though. Who knows what I was thinking.


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## happyman64

Kolors

Talk to your therapist.

You need to turn "it" off for a while.

So listen to your therapist. Take the advice and practice this weekend while you are alone.

Then just before you go home, go to a secluded spot and pour some lighter fluid on your notebook or pages.

Burn them.

Make the conscious decision that you want to be a better person, man, husband and father.

And having her check that paper is a good idea.

Isn't funny the woman that you are so paranoid about is the one that wants you whole????

She still loves you so get some help with your issues.

Then it can be her turn.....

HM64


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## Kolors

I plan to do just that.

I really hope that I can get back to being me. I can see why my wife doesn't want to be around me, I've been a mess.

When she called me last night to tell the kids goodnight I asked her the notes that I had written her the last few months have been crazy. She told me that I had only given her one note and one email. Hrm. I knew I destroyed a few before giving then to her but I swore there were lots of them. She did say what she read was pretty far out and was just wired circular arguements.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

So yeah, my therapist turned me over to a doctor starting Monday morning. Apparently I have had major depression since around 2007, which just so happens to be in the five year time span that my wife has said that she is been unhappy. He also told me that he did not know how healthy it would be for me to go home before I saw that doctor. He said I could go home but I would need to do everything in my power to just be normal. 

He seems to think that my wife looked up to me and needed me as a leader. When I failed in Atlanta she lost that confidence in me and I lost it in myself. Since I never really recovered from that, she never saw me as the same man again. I made it worse by deferring the decision making to her. I had always been the playmaker but I no longer felt like I could make sound decisions that wouldn't hurt her. Boom depression snuck in and put me in a rut. The rut was made worse when the babies came because I was now sharing my wife full time with others and she didn't have time to manage my life and hers. It got better when I got my promotion (it really did around here) but my mom being killed that same month was like six steps back. From that point on I just sort of sunk lower and lower. Pushed my wife away and most all of my friends. The separation talk from my wife pushed it to a whole new level and losing my job may have caused me to hit rock bottom. 

So, here I am now. I feel sort of better that there is treatment waiting for me with a dr Monday morning. 

My crazy tells me that my wife may be gone when I get home Sunday, my hopeful tells me she won't. I just really need to get through today and tomorrow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

That what you need at the moment

Just get through to tomorrow

The best thing God ever made was another day


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## happyman64

> My crazy tells me that my wife may be gone when I get home Sunday, my hopeful tells me she won't. I just really need to get through today and tomorrow.


So you realize that it is your crazy side thinking this way.

Sunday is 2 days away. Stop thinking about her.

Focus on you. Focus on your issues.

IMO your wife has not given up on you yet. Get the help you need.

And do not miss that DR. apt on Monday.

Chin up kolors.


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## Tobyboy

Look up the term gaslighting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

You have got everything analyzed enough for the time being.

You need to work out hard to get endorphins flowing.

re: Your wife leaving
She already said that you were just friends. You know she wants to separate. Probably she wants out. Accept that as the probable reality. But is not fate. Pull your shxt together. Master your emotions.


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## just got it 55

happyman64 said:


> So you realize that it is your crazy side thinking this way.
> 
> Sunday is 2 days away. Stop thinking about her.
> 
> Focus on you. Focus on your issues.
> 
> IMO your wife has not given up on you yet. Get the help you need.
> 
> And do not miss that DR. apt on Monday.
> 
> Chin up kolors.


Kolors : I get that sense as well she needs and maybe wants a reason to hang on

I also sense she is looking for that too


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## aeasty

I can only say from experience with having a partner with depression, I know its not their fault but it is very draining with depression that lack of motivation and how it doesn't matter what we do your never happy it gets taxing and with my experience with it, it seemed like your trapped inside a little bubble of laziness and only caring about yourself and unrealistic expetations. Not saying you are doing that but just my experience with a depression suffering partner.


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## Kolors

Looked up gaslighting, my wife is nowhere near creative enough to plan and carry out a long term make me feel crazy scheme. 

HM, yes, I realize my crazy is making me think crazy things. I read today that if you think something that makes you anxious or afraid, really think about it for a second and see if it is rational. If not, let it go, a ton of stuff going through my mind is just not worth thinking about, I am just holding on to random thoughts, such as my wife not being there Sunday. I know damn well she will be there Sunday and pretty much most days after that. I do know that when I get nutty and push her too far, she leaves. Be it for hours or days, she has a limit that she can take but I do not have a limit that I can dish out. That is a problem. I am looking forward to the Dr. on Monday. I think they will up my Xanax because I am on the lowest dose possible and my anxiety popped back up this week after being mellow for almost a month.

LW - I understand there is a good chance that I will not end up with her as a wife. At one point she told me it was 20/80 against. I do know this, if we split up then we split up. I have some big things in the works, if all goes well I will have a ball back in my court again in a few days. I love her tons but I need to love me tons too.

As for the depression, I never knew the extent of it or that what I was going through was unhealthy. I just kept plugging along, thinking that one day my wife would be happy. I never stopped to see if I was happy. I have not been honestly happy in quite a while. Much of what you described goes on at my house as well. I hope it isn't too late to fix me and my relationship. If I have to choose one, I need to fix me. I hope she stays beside me while I do it but I can't force it.


And now for good news! When I dropped my daughter off to meet my wife today my wife was the first person out the door for the first time since we started this schedule. She had a note where the company that I had sent my resume to last week had called her phone to get in touch with me. She said they were really interested in me and needed me to get in touch with them ASAP! I called and the lady was practically begging me to get in Monday for an interview. She said they saw my resume and called immediately since I had every qualification that their company was looking for. I have an interview set up Monday at 1:00 PM. From hearing her talk it seems more of a come make sure we like each other and lets talk about the salary kind of meeting. AND! It is a day job! If moving out happens soon I will be able to have my kids.

For the time being I plan to keep cooking part time through the Christmas season if this all works out. It is relaxing to me and I love doing it. It would be great to have that extra money on hand as well.

As for my weekend, I plan to go running tomorrow morning. It is supposed to be almost 70 here so a good 5k will do me right. I've had half the world ask me to come hang out tomorrow night since I never get out as well. I have a friend that plays a ton of board games so I think I will go there and hang out for the evening then crash back at the hotel. On Sunday I am heading to church with my daughter and then me and the kids are heading to a friends house to play games. My wife is going to a bday party from 430-630 then meeting us back at the house so we can knock the kids out and see Walking Dead.

Now, to make everything happen. I feel like it all depends on me now.


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## Kolors

Oh, and my new favorite quote - Let go or be dragged.

It is the most true thing that I have heard in quite a while.


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> Oh, and my new favorite quote - Let go or be dragged.
> 
> It is the most true thing that I have heard in quite a while.


Great news on the job Kolors

But more importantly great job on the self-revelations through your introspection.

That is what the professionals call a *break through *what an important move forward

This can’t be understated and will allow you to see with more clarity.

Remember when you get this new job,don't allow it to define who you are.


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## happyman64

Good luck on the interview.

And remember smile.

Please note your wife was the 1st person out the door when you stopped by.

Now do the right thing, be quiet, listen and finish your paper.

Life is going to change for the better but it starts with you....


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## LongWalk

Make mental image of the man you want to be. Add to yourself the qualities of a couple people you admire. Add on their steadiness. The willingness to say no. The ability to end conversations that are not going anywhere.

Change the black thoughts into art.


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## Kolors

So sleeping was a little difficult last night. The air in my hotel room went out and got a little stuffy. I also remembered at like 5 AM I had forgotten to take my medicine so that really didn't help me sleep and I was pretty much up from that point on. A bunch of storms rolled in last night so pretty much killed getting up and going running today. Instead I just took a long lukewarm shower and laid around for a couple hours.

I realized that I left the disc at home with a bunch information that I needed for my coursework so I figured I would stop by there real fast and grab it while was out picking up breakfast this morning. I kind of hoped that they would have been out shopping or eating but the whole family was still there when I popped in. I said hi as I came in to the wife then ran back to my office and grab my disk and the saw my daughter for a few minutes. I watched my son, who I am missing way more than I thought I would, play in the hallway and run up giving hugs. I really thought missing the wife would be the worst part but I've come to realize it's missing the kids. 

Anyhow, I raided the kitchen for water and snacks and talked to the wife for a few minutes. It was mostly about the interview on Monday and the dr appointment that morning. I told her that I was running to a local artsy gathering this morning and they were welcome to come but she didn't feel much like going, her football team had a big game in in two hours anyway. She told me that she had been up since 3 with our son which always sucks. I offered to swap and she could go sleep in the hotel and I'd stay with the kids but she refused that too, said something about not really needs sing sleep. Whatever on that one. Aside from that we just had a bit of chit chat as I grabbed my stuff.

I sat on the couch for a minute to make sure there was nothing else I needed and she told me that if I were off work tonight that she would like me to come watch the kids so she can work. I'm sort of on call today. She is apparently broke already since she is trying to live off her money I guess. I offered her some cash if she needed it an she wouldn't take it. I even offered to deposit the paycheck that I had just received in her acct so she could pick up some food or pay some bills. She said she still wants to keep our money separate, something that we have done for years. I told her to use the cash in my acct to cover the bills since I still live there right now. I'm about to text her and let her know that I just got called in so she's going to have to stay with the kids again.

I noticed today that she just seems beaten. I think that since I just popped in it took her by suprise and she didn't have time to psych herself up. She just seemed so miserable in her eyes and mannerisms. I think a lot of realities are starting to hit her all at once. I think the reality that he had made where I left and she became strong, popular, and self sufficient is show to not be true. Being alone is hard ass work, and it's harder when you are broke. I also think that my diagnosis yesterday jarred her. She teared up a bit when I talked about seeing the dr on Monday. She also looked sad each time one of the kids crawled up on me and loved on me. It's like she was totally convinced that me not being in the picture would be a non issue but my daughter was so happy to see me and give me hugs and kisses over and over.

Not even being nutty but she seemed to be the sad one today. I offered her what help I could and I let go of any thoughts that could lead to discussions about us. I really didn't want to get ran over lol.

Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday are going to be telling days for me. As long as I can remind myself that there are no definite outcomes only infinite possibilities I should be fine. Luckily for me I have church and friends to get me through tomorrow, a day all to myself to win a new job on Monday, and lunch with my daughter to look forward to on Tuesday. Today is the first day in months that I haven't wanted to be in tears. A few days apart had made me feel strong again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Oh and the man I want to be is Dean Martin but that doesn't lend itself to marriage!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday are going to be telling days for me. *As long as I can remind myself that there are no definite outcomes only infinite possibilities I should be fine.* Luckily for me I have church and friends to get me through tomorrow, a day all to myself to win a new job on Monday, and lunch with my daughter to look forward to on Tuesday. Today is the first day in months that I haven't wanted to be in tears. A few days apart had made me feel strong again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kolors That what life is for all of us

Get yourself on solid ground and create your own possibilities

With or without your wife

and work on infinite possibilities for your children


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## Kolors

Plans got canceled for tomorrow, turns out my friends daughter has a stomach virus and I really do not need to get my kids sick.

I can't help but wonder how the next few days are going to be. I am going home with a clear head which is a good start. I still miss my wife though it feels like she is trapped inside the woman at my house. I really doubt that she has changed any of her feelings about me in a few short days. I hope to be strong upon arrival and keep pushing ahead.

I do know that she stayed home all weekend which was a relief. I kind of figured that she would have her mom come by and watch the kids so she could get out of the house without having to hear me when she got home. 

I've kept searching for a new place to live as well. That will be determined by my interview on Monday and our MC on Tuesday. If I am offered a job with a large enough salary then I will try to find something that is month to month or a six month lease pretty fast. If the pay or hours aren't there then we are back in the same, too poor to separate boat until I get a new job.

I heard from a friend today that as long as I bang out the interview then the job should be mine but he thinks it will be less than 30 hours to start until I prove that I can handle the position, then it is full time with benefits. It should also be M-F 8-5. I really need to get that job.

I always believe in things happening in 3's. At least in my life it has. I believe I am over the bad streak now with my mom, my job, and my wife so the good streak must be next.


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## Kolors

Plans got canceled for tomorrow, turns out my friends daughter has a stomach virus and I really do not need to get my kids sick.

I can't help but wonder how the next few days are going to be. I am going home with a clear head which is a good start. I still miss my wife though it feels like she is trapped inside the woman at my house. I really doubt that she has changed any of her feelings about me in a few short days. I hope to be strong upon arrival and keep pushing ahead.

I do know that she stayed home all weekend which was a relief. I kind of figured that she would have her mom come by and watch the kids so she could get out of the house without having to hear me when she got home. 

I've kept searching for a new place to live as well. That will be determined by my interview on Monday and our MC on Tuesday. If I am offered a job with a large enough salary then I will try to find something that is month to month or a six month lease pretty fast. If the pay or hours aren't there then we are back in the same, too poor to separate boat until I get a new job.

I heard from a friend today that as long as I bang out the interview then the job should be mine but he thinks it will be less than 30 hours to start until I prove that I can handle the position, then it is full time with benefits. It should also be M-F 8-5. I really need to get that job.

I always believe in things happening in 3's. At least in my life it has. I believe I am over the bad streak now with my mom, my job, and my wife so the good streak must be next.


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## tom67

Kolors said:


> Plans got canceled for tomorrow, turns out my friends daughter has a stomach virus and I really do not need to get my kids sick.
> 
> I can't help but wonder how the next few days are going to be. I am going home with a clear head which is a good start. I still miss my wife though it feels like she is trapped inside the woman at my house. I really doubt that she has changed any of her feelings about me in a few short days. I hope to be strong upon arrival and keep pushing ahead.
> 
> I do know that she stayed home all weekend which was a relief. I kind of figured that she would have her mom come by and watch the kids so she could get out of the house without having to hear me when she got home.
> 
> I've kept searching for a new place to live as well. That will be determined by my interview on Monday and our MC on Tuesday. If I am offered a job with a large enough salary then I will try to find something that is month to month or a six month lease pretty fast. If the pay or hours aren't there then we are back in the same, too poor to separate boat until I get a new job.
> 
> I heard from a friend today that as long as I bang out the interview then the job should be mine but he thinks it will be less than 30 hours to start until I prove that I can handle the position, then it is full time with benefits. It should also be M-F 8-5. I really need to get that job.
> 
> I always believe in things happening in 3's. At least in my life it has. I believe I am over the bad streak now with my mom, my job, and my wife so the good streak must be next.


That is geat.
Focus on improving you/job you should do fine.:smthumbup:


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## happyman64

Kolors

When you get home act like you have no seen your wife and kids for a year.

And stop wondering if your wife went out.

The focus should be on you right now.

Get your head under control.

Get that job.

Focus on your finances and a steady 8x5 job.

Everything will fall into place by focusing on you and your issues.

HM


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## Kolors

lol I feel like I haven't been home to see them in a year even though we all saw each other yesterday. Truthfully, my wife and I hadn't see the "real" each others in longer than that 

I am all nerves as I pack my bags up to return. I do not plan to talk about anything involving us until Tuesday at MC.

If she looks as bad as she has been the last few times I've seen her it will be rough. Ill never know if she is sad about our situation or sad that I am not already gone. I can only be a stronger me and not ask if shes OK anymore. I hope she is breaking out not breaking down. 

Anyhow, time to roll. Its church then a day at the house with the kids. Just need to make it till Tuesday.


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## just got it 55

Thats exactly right Kolors

Just make it until tomorrow

Now go get that job

after all it's yours


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> lol I feel like I haven't been home to see them in a year even though we all saw each other yesterday. Truthfully, my wife and I hadn't see the "real" each others in longer than that
> 
> I am all nerves as I pack my bags up to return. I *promise* not to talk about anything involving us until Tuesday at MC.
> 
> If she looks as bad as she has been the last few times I've seen her it will be rough. Ill never know if she is sad about our situation or sad that I am not already gone. I can only be a stronger me and not ask if shes OK anymore. I hope she is breaking out not breaking down.
> 
> Anyhow, time to roll. Its church then a day at the house with the kids. Just need to make it till Tuesday.


I fixed your comment in bold.


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## Kolors

Well said sir, well said.

The message at church today was about leadership and how once leadership breaks down those around them break down as well. 

My therapist told me on Friday that my relationship broke down once I no longer felt like I was the leader in my own home.

It is strange how messages find you in life. Regardless of ones personal belief a sign is a sign is a sign.


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## Kolors

Today has been much better than expected. Got some housework and homework done and no drama.

I've noticed that my wife is just bitter about many things and I believe that she has been this way for quite a while. I am trying to think back to when it started but I can't. I believe that we were both being a-holes at each other for quite a while now. That or she is just speaking to me now in the way that I used to speak to her.

Anyhow, I refused to let it get to me today. Anything that she said that would normally push me to argue, or question, I just moved on. One time she nearly had me with a comment, I really almost just jumped right into it, but I managed to go on talking about something else real fast and diffused the situation.

Counseling should fix or at least soften that I hope. All I can do now is continue to dodge as we go.

We did manage to hang out on the couch and watch Walking Dead tonight. Even had a pleasant conversation and a few laughs during it. Once the show was over I split to go take a test and to give her back "her" room so she could get ready for bed. 

Tomorrow is a huge day. I am so happy that today ended drama free because I really need the sleep and confidence.


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## Kolors

Yay I am not insane! The doc told me that he basically agreed with my IC. I have depression that started when we moved home from Georgia that I just bottled up and hoped it would just blow over. It was made a bit worse by the loss of my mom but I managed to bury it in my job. Once my job started to take a turn for the worse bam everything fired back up and caused the worse depression and anxiety. The wife wanting to leave was the last straw in my brain, which is why the job loss really didn't effect me so much. At that point I had already reached the rock bottom that my brain would handle.

He said that my lows will be low for a while until I work some of it out but he doesn't believe that I need to be medicated in order to handle my issues. WHEW! He said the side effects in all of those types of medications can be serious enough that he doesn't like to pass them out unless it is a patient that simply cannot cope.

His advice, lose my last 30lbs, get off blood pressure medicine.

Keep up the IC monthly. 

Fix my marriage or end it. As long as things are the same or a little better each month then keep going. Do not attempt to evaluate it on a daily basis, it only causes a roller coaster effect. Eventually I have to make the decision as to how healthy it is to keep trying. Stay in MC, it sounded to him like it was going places. He said that he always pushes couples to fix their problems when there are children involved and there are no signs of physical abuse. To him, problems are problems, people need to stop being weak and work on their problems.

Find a job that I like and can support myself and my family on.

All in all, he says I am holding up well for a person in my shoes and to keep it up.

No to get psyched up for this interview. I am sure I can nail it, I only hope it is enough money for my to support myself on that job alone.

I also had a friend send me a message today that she will be looking for a roommate in January since she and her boyfriend have split up. We have known each other for like 17 years so it could be a decent place for me to lay low for a while if needed. It will also put me at home through the holidays which I would enjoy.


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## just got it 55

Nice Kolors Very Nice

Consider this progress

Just get to tommorrow

55


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## Kolors

Well on the positive side I nailed the interview and hit it off really well with the owner the company. On the negative side it appears to be a part-time job that pays about what unemployment would pay. The worst part is that two of the three days that he is looking for somebody are days that I am making pretty good money cooking. The owner said he was going to look to see if there's a way he could make it a full-time position but I just don't know if it's the job for me even if he offers.

Just have to have faith that it wasn't what I needed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Kolors,

You are bright. Probably the psychiatrist figured that a verbal, intelligent person would not like being dulled by antidepressants. That is real vote of confidence.

If you want to succeed, you should make losing that 30 lbs a no compromise goal. To be frank you cannot be attractive to your wife in your current condition. Run, lift weights. Cut out carbs and alcohol. You'll feel better and it will improve your job search.

I have feeling you can succeed.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> Well on the positive side I nailed the interview and hit it off really well with the owner the company. On the negative side it appears to be a part-time job that pays about what unemployment would pay. The worst part is that two of the three days that he is looking for somebody are days that I am making pretty good money cooking. The owner said he was going to look to see if there's a way he could make it a full-time position but I just don't know if it's the job for me even if he offers.
> 
> *Just have to have faith that it wasn't what I needed*.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kolors : If you have skills 

Don't settle

Not on anything

Not for anything


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## Kolors

I am not settling on a job at the moment, I will however take progressively better jobs as they appear until I get back into my field. I will keep plugging along working and searching every day until then.

I did hear from my worst case scenario roommate today. She broke it off with her man last week and he is leaving on Jan 1st so I can go there if things do not improve here. 

I also spoke with my wife about it this evening, which led to a long evening of discussing parenting and touching on what my shrink said today and on Friday. We did a bit of catching up over what we did while I was in the hotel last week and a bit of sharing.

For the first time in two months, a conversation happened that did not involve drama or tears on either of our parts. I told her how my sessions both basically put the blame on me and 2008 and how I know that neither of us have ever worked through it and that it will be coming up in our MC soon so we better be prepared for a rough night when that one happens. We also talked a bit about some of the stuff that she has been upset about but in a rational fashion.

Here are a few things of note:

She now acknowledges that I will be here until at least January. This date is mostly because I have pushed the issue with moving out since she has made claims that it is too difficult to come home and deal with the old me.

The books are right, man up ASAP if your relationship goes sour. Talking is OK as long as it is just talking. Crying, begging, bargaining, and apologizing for everything does the exact opposite of what you are wanting to accomplish. 

She admitted that maybe a relationship ultimatum could have been thrown out there before jumping straight into "How would you feel about me getting an apartment?" 

When she said "Lets give it six months and see where we are." she meant that as an ultimatum, I took it as "You have six months before we split up, there is no way you will make me happy that fast."

I am hoping to fix a marriage in MC, she is hoping that I see where ours went wrong and that I learn from it. 

Everything that we talked about was in a very cool manner and I got a lot out of it. I sort of feel like I still have time to fix this before it becomes too late. She did acknowledge some of the changes that I have made and consistency where she felt I would fall off. She also gets really sad when she sees that I have changed certain things now that she wanted changed months or years ago.

She also told me that if I feel the need to have some sort of self reflection or breakdown time then it needs to be at night after the kids are in bed. She could care less if I sit in another room and deal with myself or if I go for a run alone. To her the time between 6AM and 8PM needs to be focused on the home and the kids. They do not need to see either of us being a wreck anymore.


How do I feel about it? I'll sleep good tonight. I really enjoyed sitting and talking with her, we should have been able to do this five years ago. Tomorrow is a morning shift for me and then MC at 6pm. I bet the session tomorrow will be a doozy.


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## Kolors

And LW, I am working on the weight as I have time. Seeing as I am working constantly and never have time to eat, it is going just fine. I think I am going to have to start braving the cold temps and running after the kids go to sleep. 

Maybe I can lie to myself and call it crisp or refreshing.


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## Kolors

And before HM busts my balls, we didn't get into any emotions or junk like we had been before. We stated some things that needed to be worked on in her opinion and I tried to take them in and pick things that I felt that I could work on and at the same time she would be able to acknowledge.


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> I am not settling on a job at the moment, I will however take progressively better jobs as they appear until I get back into my field. I will keep plugging along working and searching every day until then.
> 
> I did hear from my worst case scenario roommate today. She broke it off with her man last week and he is leaving on Jan 1st so I can go there if things do not improve here.
> 
> I also spoke with my wife about it this evening, which led to a long evening of discussing parenting and touching on what my shrink said today and on Friday. We did a bit of catching up over what we did while I was in the hotel last week and a bit of sharing.
> 
> For the first time in two months, a conversation happened that did not involve drama or tears on either of our parts. I told her how my sessions both basically put the blame on me and 2008 and how I know that neither of us have ever worked through it and that it will be coming up in our MC soon so we better be prepared for a rough night when that one happens. We also talked a bit about some of the stuff that she has been upset about but in a rational fashion.
> 
> Here are a few things of note:
> 
> She now acknowledges that I will be here until at least January. This date is mostly because I have pushed the issue with moving out since she has made claims that it is too difficult to come home and deal with the old me.
> 
> The books are right, man up ASAP if your relationship goes sour. Talking is OK as long as it is just talking. Crying, begging, bargaining, and apologizing for everything does the exact opposite of what you are wanting to accomplish.
> 
> She admitted that maybe a relationship ultimatum could have been thrown out there before jumping straight into "How would you feel about me getting an apartment?"
> 
> When she said "Lets give it six months and see where we are." she meant that as an ultimatum, I took it as "You have six months before we split up, there is no way you will make me happy that fast."
> 
> I am hoping to fix a marriage in MC, she is hoping that I see where ours went wrong and that I learn from it.
> 
> Everything that we talked about was in a very cool manner and I got a lot out of it. I sort of feel like I still have time to fix this before it becomes too late. She did acknowledge some of the changes that I have made and consistency where she felt I would fall off. She also gets really sad when she sees that I have changed certain things now that she wanted changed months or years ago.
> 
> She also told me that if I feel the need to have some sort of self reflection or breakdown time then it needs to be at night after the kids are in bed. She could care less if I sit in another room and deal with myself or if I go for a run alone. To her the time between 6AM and 8PM needs to be focused on the home and the kids. They do not need to see either of us being a wreck anymore.
> 
> 
> How do I feel about it? I'll sleep good tonight. I really enjoyed sitting and talking with her, we should have been able to do this five years ago. Tomorrow is a morning shift for me and then MC at 6pm. I bet the session tomorrow will be a doozy.


Congratulations.

You listened to her.

Now keep listening and no jumping to conclusions.

And while all our spouses wish we fixed the issues 5 years ago the key is that you are fixing them now and your goal is to have consistency.

That all the fixes become permanent.

Remind her that it is a two way street and you have not given up on her........


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> And before HM busts my balls, we didn't get into any emotions or junk like we had been before. We stated some things that needed to be worked on in her opinion and I tried to take them in and pick things that I felt that I could work on and at the same time she would be able to acknowledge.


And why would I bust your balls???

You are listening.

Listening=Learning



How are your balls now Kolors??????

Keep moving forward.


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## Kolors

Yea jumping to conclusions had caused a multitude of issues. I've stopped snooping and taking things as more than face value. Last night she was even nice enough to clarify exactly what she meant on one point instead of just tell me to figure it out.

The key to this week is bring consistent. Do what is needed and wanted of me, do not worry about her. She will grieve each time I do something that she felt she needed years ago. Do not, under any circumstances be anything less than strong while the kids are up. 

MC tonight. 8 days later, let's see how this one goes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Good luck tonight.

Be positive for yourself.


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## JohnC_depressed

Kolors I have followed this thread. Its been suggested you stop talking with respect to (WRT) the immediate relationship and focus on yourself. I concur. Keep working on the things you are working on and it will all fall into place. Good luck!!


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## Kolors

Yep, the talking is bad and has generally been negative. I'm moving on to just being me again and staying helpful around the house. Hopefully it will restore her comfort level a bit so she doesn't feel like she does not want to come in that door each day and it will allow me to relax and not feel like getting personal. MC nights are for being personal.

I dressed up today for MC. I always feel more confident when I dress nice. I also love that most if my nice clothes no longer fit. It was work finding slacks and shirts in my closet I wear now lol.

Tick tick as we wait for our session.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Therapist told us to separate. Wife is cool with just divorcing. Sigh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> Therapist told us to separate. Wife is cool with just divorcing. Sigh.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You think she is cool.

Focus on you. Focus on your issues.

Separation/Divorce takes months.

Instead focus on the priorities.

Job.
Money.
Your mental health.
And especially the kids.
Leave your wife to take care of herself and her choices.

You need to focus on you.

HM


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## Kolors

Well, the therapist directly asked her if she wanted a divorce and she couldn't say yes or no. I even spoke up and told her to feel free to answer it, I understood how bad it was between us and she didn't do it.

We stayed like 2 hours in our session almost.

She keeps telling me that she just doesn't want to talk. I really dont care to talk either! I made it a point to not talk ever since I got home from the hotel. 

I really have no idea what issues of mine I am supposed to be working on anymore. The things I have been working on involving me were things to make be a better husband and father. I do not plan on stopping those things until I finally hit the door.

We sort of discussed the separation this evening but no rational conversation happened. I spoke to my potential roommate tonight and she will definitely have a room on Jan 1st. We go back about 15 years and have always got along just fine. All in all, it will cost me roughly $450.00 a month to stay there including rent, cable, and utilities. I eat at work now so all I will really need is gas and maybe 50 bucks worth of food and drink for the house each week.

My wife wants to work out me just staying here on the nights where I could have the kids. She said she can stay at a friends house on those nights so the kids would not have to be uprooted. I really cant see sleeping in this house after I leave. The memories will be too rough and I don't know if I could sleep.

I really am not worried about my mental health currently. I feel stable even though all of this is going on. Our MC suggested I talk to my IC about the separation but my next appt with the IC is in over a month.

I promised her today that there would be no more talk of us. I do not believe that we are going back to see the MC. Now MC has turned into separation therapy and the lady said that she does not handle moving people into separation.

I am sort of lost at the moment. She wants me out but can't sit down to talk about all the fine points. She doubts that I will even leave, much less move in with this friend that I have been speaking to. I plan to separate our finances tomorrow by opening up my own acct, moving all of my money to it, and leaving our joint account to transfer her money to pay the December bills. After that, I will pay her whatever I can. We are not getting a legal separation since that would put me off her insurance, just a hand shake and a hope that things improve.

So, I have until Jan 1st. Bleh.


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## Kolors

Man today is more rough than I expected.


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> Man today is more rough than I expected.


It is all in your mind. You do realize that don't you.

I will say it again because I like you.

Shut up.
A. Focus on your issues.
B. Your goals are to improve as a person, man & father.
C. Stop worrying if you are a good husband. Your wife has made that very clear.

There is no marriage to discuss unless she wants to discuss it.And do it only in front of a counselor if she cannot control her hurt or anger. If it is a ***** session of hers or she is not making sense (only discuss the separation, kids or finances) then stop her talking say "I am sorry you feel that way" and enforce what you will only discuss with her.

You can stop the nonsense. The key now is not too cause anymore of it.

Stay focused. Stay in control.

HM


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## LongWalk

Your wife may or may not love you at some level. She does not trust to you make her feel good. All of the things you need to do to repair your marriage are identical to the tasks to get your personal life in order:

1) Get a better paying job that does not destroy your soul. Being a chef is good in so much as if you are energetic you can probably get extra work catering and stuff like that. Chefs get to meet people and create a buzz. Just don't over eat on the job.

Be very tough about not drinking too much.

2) Be a good dad. That is important to you. Your daughter likes dance. Make certain that you watch her dance and are mentally involved. When I coached swimming I hated those parents who treated the swimming lessons as baby sitting. The parents who watched their kids were learning.

You can have a book on you smartphone if gets boring.

You will meet yummy mummys through your children's activities. Some will be divorced or separtated.

3) Sex life
You wife has crushed your sex and life and you accepted that. Has that been good for your self image? Has it contributed to your depression? Separate and date. The purpose separation is usually divorce.

There is some chance that you will both be disappointed dating and find each other again, but that is only meaningful if you have shaken off the codependent relationship that is so depressing for the two of you.

I don't believe your wife is as asexual LD as you want to believe. She just doesn't want you anymore. Sad but true.

4) Your wife
From what you report your wife sometimes sound quite cool and other times a little crazy. We only see her through your eyes, though. To clarify what is going on her mind you need to separate. If she misses you, she will have no problem finding you. 


Conclusion: You are a smart guy. Discipline yourself and you will come out of this well.


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> Man today is more rough than I expected.


Kolor : Sorry this is not going the way you hoped (at the moment )

This could change at any time

What you need to do to affect that change is to move on (HARD 180)

I am feeling better about your mental state from your last few posts

Most of them were fairly positive. The last one notwithstanding, but you seem to have a better grasp of your marital situation, your wife however not so much .It’s going to be a real challenge to repair your marriage as long as she is in a state of confusion. Any work on that front will only yield frustration and continued mixed emotions.

Go about your business of Kolors V 2.0

Prioritize what challenges you.

1 Stability and mental well being

2 Job / Carrier and continuing education (this is a must)
All things to keep you focused on moving forward and to keep your mind occupied

If your marriage works out all the better. If not then so be it
Get out of limbo land as soon as you can It will put you more in control of your life

All these suggestions will only make you a better dad which is most important of all.

We know you will do this

55


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## Kolors

HM- I'm working in those things, after I finish as the bank today I am gettin back in the job hunt. Should I stop all the positive things that I am trying to do at home? Six weeks is still a long time an things could get better or way way worse. 

LW - I am working on a new job but our area has started to become severely depresses. Thousands of people have lost their jobs here in the last few months as plants are being closed. Any job over about 10 bucks an hour is considered good right now. It has taken some if my friends over a year to find good work, I hope to not be in that boat but I can't live in denial.

As for the sex drive, it is the least of my concerns. Sex is just so far from important to me right now. Maybe being separated will change that but part of our suggested separation is no sex, no dating, let each other heal. She may jump right into a man, who knows. I won't have money for a woman for a while and no one wants to date a broke ass line cook. Besides, most of the money that I make is going to go to her to keep the bills up on the house so the kids won't suffer. Maybe that's stupid of me, but I can't imagine making life harder for any of them.

Tonight there will be no talk. I can't decide if we should just not speak to each other or just pretend to be normal and drop any conversation that leads to us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

55- I'm going to be nothing but stable as far as she is concerned. If I feel like anything is going bad I can leave. My future roommate said I can come crash there on the couch any time between now and then if it gets rough.

I'm still finishing my degree. I have like 3 or 4 semesters left so quitting would be a bad idea. A career will fall in my lap soon enough. That alone will pick me back up, I need something to throw myself in to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

I went by and saw the potential new house and it was not bad. It is an older home but it is 4BR and I would get the two smaller ones. She works doubles each day as well so we would really never see each other.

All in all it will set me back about $450.00 to move in and cover everything.

Am I stupid for worrying about my wifes finances while we are separated? I am trying to live as cheap as possible so I can give her as much money as possible to live off of. We really haven't hammered out the separation as of yet but I really do not want my children living of babysitters constantly so she can make a few extra bucks working all night. I really don't want to make it unnecessarily hard on myself by leaving me no spending money or savings though while I am gone.


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## BK23

Worry about your kids. Not your wife. It's not your job to make dumping you as smooth and pleasant an experience as possible for her....

You really need to start thinking of yourself and your kids first. Obsessing over your wife is not doing you any favors, either in terms of moving on or saving your marriage.


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## LongWalk

Don't worry about your wife's finances. She is making 25k a year while you are making what, half or 3/4 of that at the moment.

You can have your children 50% of the time with two bedrooms.


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## Kolors

Im making an uber 21k a year working my two jobs lol. My worry is mostly based around the kids not having what they need to survive. Together we were just barely cutting it after my job loss. 

Apart they are going to start missing out on most everything other than coming home, no TV since it is shut off, none of the little gadgets that my daughter loves so much since there will be no internet, my son is going to have to go to a new daycare since it will save her 120 a month to move him. My daughter will be limited to only dance, other activities have to be canceled. Christmas is going to be horrible this year, my wife has no money to contribute and I could cover it all but then I eat up my savings that I may need in case we do not reconcile later.

I guess I am just a worrier at heart. Deep down I know that my children will still love me, even if they see me less and only stay with me a night or two a week. I know that I will get along just fine, more than likely meet someone new eventually and fling my way out of heart break. I know my wife will realize that it is very very hard to be a single parent, that is why people aren't lining up to do it. I know a new job will come my way. I may be stuck in the industry cooking for a while as I search, but eventually the economy will tighten up around here and I will catch a break. I know that separation does not always equal divorce and absence makes the heart grow fonder. I've also been told that God does not give us more than we can handle. Six weeks is a long time before I go and everything can change, I know that. As the date gets closer, emotions on both side are going to go a bit crazy, even though Im not allowed to talk about them!

I totally appreciate the pep talks and directions that you all throw at me, I am glad that people see my cause and that they chime in on my successes and failures. When this is all said and done, I hope to support someone else in the way you all have supported me. It really has made getting through some of the days easier.

Time to iron the chef coat and hit the road.


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> HM- I'm working in those things, after I finish as the bank today I am gettin back in the job hunt. Should I stop all the positive things that I am trying to do at home? Six weeks is still a long time an things could get better or way way worse.
> 
> LW - I am working on a new job but our area has started to become severely depresses. Thousands of people have lost their jobs here in the last few months as plants are being closed. Any job over about 10 bucks an hour is considered good right now. It has taken some if my friends over a year to find good work, I hope to not be in that boat but I can't live in denial.
> 
> As for the sex drive, it is the least of my concerns. Sex is just so far from important to me right now. Maybe being separated will change that but part of our suggested separation is no sex, no dating, let each other heal. She may jump right into a man, who knows. I won't have money for a woman for a while and no one wants to date a broke ass line cook. Besides, most of the money that I make is going to go to her to keep the bills up on the house so the kids won't suffer. Maybe that's stupid of me, but I can't imagine making life harder for any of them.
> 
> Tonight there will be no talk. I can't decide if we should just not speak to each other or just pretend to be normal and drop any conversation that leads to us.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kolors

You do the positive things if they are positive for you and make you feel good.

HM


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## just got it 55

happyman64 said:


> Kolors
> 
> You do the positive things if they are positive for you and make you feel good.
> 
> HM


:iagree:

Only and always be positive

FOR YOU


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## Tobyboy

Have you spoken to an attorney yet? This separation without legal documents can come back and bite you in the ass if your not careful. Seriously!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

No, if we do the legal route I get dropped off her health coverage. I'm paying her what it costs to have me on the policy. Hopefully when I land a new job with benefits I can get single coverage for myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> No, if we do the legal route I get dropped off her health coverage. I'm paying her what it costs to have me on the policy. Hopefully when I land a new job with benefits I can get single coverage for myself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You might lose the healthcare if you Divorce. I do not think you will lose insurance during a separation.

Have you and your wife discussed the boundaries of your separation?

Put them in writing?

Money?
Bills?
Assets?
Parenting Plan?
Dating?
opposite sex sleepovers?

Think about it. Get advice. Put it in writing.

It might actually show you your wifes intent.

But like I said. You can only control you.

HM


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## Kolors

We have discussed it but not put it in writing. I hope to but not so soon. Right now we are trying to just remain calm for a while. We talked a bit again tonight about nothing really, stuff like my job search, a tenant issue that I have, about parenting plans, just random stuff really. Nothing about our relationship that I can recall.

Money is now separate. I handled that today by pulling my checking and savings out of the joint account and opening new accounts with only my name on them. I did open them at the same credit union that she uses so funds transfers can be immediate.

Bills are 50/50 until Jan 1st. At that point she is on her own. She is still off several hundred dollars to make it so I will do my part by paying her a portion of the health insurance and half the daycare. I plan to go ahead and payout our daughters dance season so there is 70 a month that she will have in her pocket as well. We are still on the same phone plan so I will give her that money as well. I will transfer over cash for her to pay the daycare every other week. Other than that, we are financially independent during the separation. 

Assets - She is staying in our home. The house will be put up for sale this spring whether we reconcile or divorce. Neither of us are happy living in this home and both want to live on the other side of town for better schools. I keep my truck, she keeps her SUV. My money is mine, her money is hers. The stuff in the house is not worth arguing about. Things that are mine are mine, things that are hers are hers. The kids things will stay here in the house.

I own an inherited property that I use as a rental. I keep the income from the rental property and the property itself. Aside from that, there are not a ton of other assets. I keep my retirement savings and she will not touch a family trust that I hold with my inheritance tied up in it.

We are not dating while the separation is going on. She has claimed to really have no interest in it, she just wants to be alone to think. I really do not have an interest in it currently, I have too much stress without additional women bringing more of it to me.

Opposite Sex stuff is a nonissue at the moment. Seeing as I will be living with another woman as a roommate I would technically be breaking that rule anyway. As of now, we are not planning to get involved with other people. When we determine that the separation is not leading to reconciliation then we may date a little then do the divorce if nothing changes.

We may not get along, but we do work really well when we put our heads together. We have discussed this whole situation a few times over the last few months and this is what we have come up with. 

As for the insurance, if we separate without it being a "legal separation" it will not mess with it. Since she is a state employee, any separation like that will have me dumped form the insurance. She looked it up at the office the other day when we first started the separation talks. We are not going to report it to anyone. Anything written will be done by us and maybe notarized and stuck in the deposit box.


This all really just depends on what happens between now and Jan 1st. Like a friend told me today, December 31st may be what it takes to change her mind because Jan 1st will be a rough day for us all. It even came up in discussion tonight about how I do not want her to mess around and run late on the house payments, we do not know if this will last two weeks or two years. She could miss me as I walk out the door or I could get over her two weeks after I am gone. Only time will tell what is going to happen.

The only thing I know for sure is that she is hurt, she needs to heal, and the old me could not help. New me can't help but he can stop creating new hurt.


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## happyman64

> The only thing I know for sure is that she is hurt, she needs to heal, and the old me could not help. New me can't help but he can stop creating new hurt.


Now you are learning.

And your plan sounds solid. Just make sure it is mutual.

But you have plenty of time to do that.

And yes she needs to heal. But only she can do that. 

Just keep the focus on you.

HM


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## Kolors

Yea it is totally a change in thinking to say six weeks is a long time away instead of six weeks will be here so soon. I now see it as tons of time to steadily improve and hope she misses the new me, not dwells on the old me when I leave.

In a turn of events, my tenant never turned the electric on in their names so he broke the lease and I get to put then out. I asked him to go peacefully today over the phone. If not I will have to get the court involved and the sheriffs department, and neither of us want that. If that works out, I'll spend the next six weeks gettin it cleaned up, repainted, and furnished to move back in to. Best case scenario, it's ready to sell in the spring and for a little while as we get our heads straight. Worst case scenario, I've got somewhere to go starting next week if things erupt.

I got a hit on a kitchen manager job today. It's about 50 miles from my house but I need the pay. I could work my ass off there and out most all of it in savings. I'd have to buy a new (used) car soon. The f-150 is just going to drink gas with that haul each day. I worked for the lady before and we got along great so hopefully I can land that job.

I got in a bit of trouble with the wife this morning. Disney on Ice is coming to our town and my daughter has asked to go the last few years but we never did. This year they have 13 dollar tickets! Since her bday is the following week I asked her if she would like to go see the princesses skate for her bday. She jumped for joy over it! My wife overheard and erupted down the hall. She was yelling something and slammed the door as she went out. Be he came back in and sounded hysterical as she cried and yelled for our daughter to come get in the car for school. I did not say a word. I didn't feel that I had done anything wrong. I was going to pay it out of my PayPal acct from selling off some hobby stuff or have my dad pick them up for her since he was looking for a bday present already.

In spoke to dad after he left and he got online and bought two really expensive tickets to the show for us, not the cheap ones I had planned to get.

Later today the schools were dismissed due to a bomb threat and I met the wife to go grab the kids. I told her that I had the tickets for me and the daughter to go and that my sad had bought them for her bday. I had not blown any money on it and she would have known that if she just calmed down. She told me that it wasn't the money, it was that she had wanted me to do things like that with my daughter for years and now it upsets her when I do work hard to be a dad. I told her I understood and we moved on.

The hurt is coming out and it is getting easier for her to just say it. It's gettin easier for me to just accept it and move on as well.

Ain't love grand? Time for my 2nd shift. Enjoy your evenings ladies and gentlemen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

If you do enough positive things over 6 months, she will p!ssed off that your next wife gets to reap the benefits of all her work.

Whatever your failures or shortcomings have done to hurt your relationship, you are at a point that you cannot swallow all of her bitterness like a poison pill. Detaching from her will the days much easier. 

Hope you get the job. Keep losing weight. Get fit. You will find someone else. No man should say that having sexual desire for his wife is beyond his imagination. Sounds like a surrender to death, assuming the man is fundamentally healthy.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## happyman64

Good move Kolors. Enjoy the show.

Can I make one suggestion???

When your wife passes a comment like this:



> it was that she had wanted me to do things like that with my daughter for years and now it upsets her when I do work hard to be a dad.


You not only have to call her out on her behavior but tell her to get used to your new actions. Because Kolors 2.0 is here to stay and be a great dad. She needs to get used to it no matter if you two are together or not.

Your wife really needs some serious counseling my friend.

Do not despair. Keep fixing you. 

Because someday you will be awesome......
HM


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## Kolors

I do call her out on those kind of comments. I always agree that in the past I was not great but I am a new man and my changes are here to stay. I can see it from her side, two months does not equal four years, I give her that. Consistency is key.

I do believe that he is going to have some IC. She had kept saying that she didn't, I was her only issue. This last MC session our counselor asked her I she would consider IC and she said yes. She was even introduced to one of the other counselor a as potential IC for her.

I will never argue that I was super dad before though. I would only be lying to myself. I was more "as much as I needed to" dad before.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Ugh and don't say next wife, I don't even want to think about another one of those if this doesn't work out. That's like a 10 year plan.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> Ugh and don't say next wife, I don't even want to think about another one of those if this doesn't work out. That's like a 10 year plan.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would never say that.

You know what you have to do.

Just Do It!


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## Kolors

I totally know what I have to do. I just really plan on not getting into another relationship really fast if our separation doesn't work. I do realize that I am back in the one industry where heartbreak is smoothed over really fast now, but really bleh to women for a while.

I have a charity that I have been thinking about working on as a side project. I've seen several pop up similar to it out west in urban environments. Once I land a job and stabilize that part of my life I may start working on it and seeing if I can get a grant or some donations. That will give me more time to just be me.

I've also been recruited to storyboard and write some concepts for a guy that is developing some video games and game apps. I would love for that to take off!


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## Kolors

The last two nights I have dreamed about us doing happy family things and it's killing me. We still love each other totally in my dreams. I can hold back when I'm awake but I really can't control how great it feels to be loved again while I'm sleeping. 

Chin up, I know. But damn it I am going to miss this woman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> I totally know what I have to do. I just really plan on not getting into another relationship really fast if our separation doesn't work. I do realize that I am back in the one industry where heartbreak is smoothed over really fast now, but really bleh to women for a while.
> 
> I have a charity that I have been thinking about working on as a side project. I've seen several pop up similar to it out west in urban environments. Once I land a job and stabilize that part of my life I may start working on it and seeing if I can get a grant or some donations. That will give me more time to just be me.
> 
> I've also been recruited to storyboard and write some concepts for a guy that is developing some video games and game apps. I would love for that to take off!


Just make sure you are the primary focus of your attentions, then your family and then the charity.


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> The last two nights I have dreamed about us doing happy family things and it's killing me. We still love each other totally in my dreams. I can hold back when I'm awake but I really can't control how great it feels to be loved again while I'm sleeping.
> 
> Chin up, I know. But damn it I am going to miss this woman.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She is not gone yet so stop missing her.

Use your emotions and that feeling to make her miss you......


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## Kolors

Man I would love to do just that. I'm just glad everyone is still asleep while I had my little come apart .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Well, the tenant moving out is a done deal now. He popped for drugs today at work so he was fired on the spot. I called him and he is trying to find somewhere to stay and is getting his stuff out of the house.

As soon as he is out I will send a cleaning service over to clean it up and someone to paint all the rooms. Ill also need to get my daughter to pick a color for the new room for her and her brother.

So yea, when I move on out my total bills will be less than $300 a month for electric and cable. Ill start transferring her half a months daycare money, part of the health insurance, half the car insurance, and my portion of the cell phone bill on Jan 1st. I should be able to make one lump payment to her of about 400 to cover it on the 1st of each month.

The other potential bonus is the tenant was terminated from my old place of employment. The current manager is seeing if I am eligible for rehire at a lower position. It would be fabrication in a warehouse but it pays better than nothing at all, and has benefits still.

Cmon good luck, I need some today.


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## just got it 55

Kolors you will be making your own luck by doing right by yourself

You can't miss that way

Chin up Bud Stay Positive

Make Good Things Happen


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## Kolors

Yea, it seems to be getting easier now that I have forced myself to come to terms with the soon to be separation. When I started this thread I was full on afraid of it, now I am working to embrace it.

I spoke briefly to the wife about moving tonight and we agreed that even if the other house is ready to move into in a week or so we still need to wait until after our daughters bday and Christmas. Both are in the same week so we will at least have one last blow out week. We both were a bit saddened over how much it is going to tear our daughter up. She is still at that age where a family is the most awesome thing in the world and it is all she talks about.

Anyhow, we are going to do a family thing in the morning. There is a deal with Harry Potter not too far from here and my wife and daughter are big fans. I've never really got in to any of that world but I hope that we all have a little fun and can relax. I really do hold these times that we hang out as a family as special. We may or may not do much more of it after December is over. Above and beyond all, I love my family, more so now than ever before. Even with all the negative and her inability to forgive me, I still love my wife terribly. 

We may swing by the local Toys r Us and see what all catches our daughters eye. We have cut our budget back pretty far from last year so we are going to be much more selective now. Im thinking one really decent present for each kid and then some stuff from the dollar store that we can throw away as soon as they stop playing with it.

Tomorrow evening I have a friend coming over to play some tabletop games and the wife is working. She is doing everything she can to get extra money right now before January hits, and I can't really blame her.

I also think I am hitting an early midlife crisis, I've started looking for a new car. My truck has always been ole dependable but I need to upgrade to something nicer. 

Anyhow, time to bang out my last paper of the semester.


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## Kolors

Good day so far for everyone. We took a little day trip with the whole family and scoped out Xmas presents with the kids. As far as I could tell, everything was totally calm. She got upset at one point when we drove by a house she had thought about purchasing and I suggested selling ours before she jumps into another. She already had a plan if something amazing came open so we almost crossed the line but we pulled back first.

When we got back home I saw a half written letter on the shelf and she told me that I could go ahead and read it. Amazingly, I didn't get emotionally wrapped up in it like I had in the past. The note was basically a list of the things that had gone wrong and little lists under each one of specifics. It was good to see things that he had been holding on to for so long. Some of these things were 10 years old! Anyhow, we talked a little and she said she had some more to add to it. I told her that I would make a list of my own and would give it to her later.

I'm so happy that I did not dwell on her list or try to rationalize or discuss my way out if any of it. Life is really getting better, let's just pray for no setbacks.

Anyhow, she's heading out to work an I've got Friends coming over. Game time!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

Just havr fun
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Totally had fun this evening aside from a sick baby. My friend has a daughter a little older than mine so they played and kept each other amused while we played some games for a couple hours. It was quite relaxing to enjoy one of my hobbies for a few hours for the first time in months. 

Once they left I washed the kids and put them to bed and then got about 80% of my paper written. Hopefully I will have a few hours tomorrow to finish the last bit after work and before Walking Dead comes on.

Now for my only real issue, I really do not know what to do around the house anymore. I get that we are supposed to be separating and living our separate lives but since the first part of this week things have been rather normal around here, or at least less heated. 
With it being the Christmas season there is just so much to do and most all of it is family oriented stuff. 

So here is my deal, do I just focus on the kids and try to distance myself farther from the wife or do I try to keep including her in the things we do? Part of her letter to me mentioned how much she always loved just jumping in the car as a family and just doing random things and there are so many fun things going on locally right now that I could fill every day with something new.

Anyhow, time to check on the baby since hes been so sick today and then hit the sack. I feel some good sleep coming on.


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## happyman64

You answered your own question.

If you like spontaneous fun-filled family events then do them.

If your wife joins you then great. If not then so be it.

Keep being you. Do not linger on her, her thoughts or her actions.

Focus on you and your "family".

She is carrying around a lot of baggage (animosity) that she needs to deal with, not you.

Show her the healthy Kolors. The one who loves himself.......

HM


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## just got it 55

happyman64 said:


> You answered your own question.
> 
> If you like spontaneous fun-filled family events then do them.
> 
> If your wife joins you then great. If not then so be it.
> 
> Keep being you. Do not linger on her, her thoughts or her actions.
> 
> Focus on you and your "family".
> 
> She is carrying around a lot of baggage (animosity) that she needs to deal with, not you.
> 
> Show her the healthy Kolors. The one who loves himself.......
> 
> HM



:iagree::iagree:

HM you took the words right out of my mouth

Do you see her softening ?
If so be prepared to watch her go back and forth on this
She has a long way to go
Show *yourself* you are getting where you need to be
let her be a witness to that change


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## Kolors

I cannot say that I see her "softening". I just feel like she is feeling less of a burden since she feels the end nearing. She knows that pretty soon I will not be around the house and she will not have to deal with me or my problems.

Don't get me wrong, I pray that she does soften. I still hope the next day is the day that she changes her mind about our split and commits to working something out that will save our little family. 

Anyhow, Ive got a paper to finish today and it is FREEZING outside. In a perfect world we would mess around the house all day, put the kids in bed, then watch some Walking Dead. I hope today stays perfect. 

I plan to continue smiling and not letting myself fall apart over nothing. I hope my wife recognizes the changes, my time here is getting shorter and shorter each day.


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## Kolors

One last thing before I jump into finishing my paper.

I did some more reading of her letter about the problems in our marriage last night. I sort of realized what this letter was. Each time she would say something in an argument, I would ask for an example of the point she was making. This is a list of those points. I know that I cannot go back in time and fix any of them but it amazing to see some of the things on this list since I never thought twice about some of them. 

I did tell her that I would write my own list but I really try to not hang on to things so I cannot remember many things that I was upset about in our relationship.

I can however think of all the good things that we had, even until recently. Even this morning I was stuck thinking about how we would end up with both kids in the bed in the mornings, watching cartoons, laughing, and being silly. She had actually ended up laying with me and the kids this morning at my daughters request. It was surreal how the memories of the good times just popped right in my brain.

I would really love to just write her a list of as many good things as she can think of bad things. I keep remembering positives and trying to force the negatives to the back of my mind.


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## just got it 55

Kolors This positive/negative thing can't be a one way street

If she unable/unwilling to see anything positive and the same for you but in reverse 


Then what else is there to say ?


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## happyman64

I think you should do your own letter.

Give her an envelope.

Inside should be empty.


When she asks you where the list is tell her this.

"The list is in her head. That if she wants to continue living in the past and harboring resentment against you then that is her decision.

Let her know that you have made a conscious decision to live for the future and be the best man, father and husband that you can be.

The choice in the end is hers. She can decide to be with you or without you.

But you have already made your choice and you hope she sees that in you."

That is what you tell her.

Remember. You can only control you!

HM


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## Kolors

I have no idea if she has positives about our relationship or can honestly even remember them. She certainly never talks about them or has mentioned them in our MC sessions. I have noticed a trend, not only with my wife but with many spouses on these boards, where the positives are replaced with negatives or at least the positives weigh much less than the negatives when it comes to the balance of a relationship.

I do not believe that she is willing to discuss the positive things that have occurred in our relationship, not with me, not with our counselor. When she sees positive things now it saddens her, or at least on the outside she appears saddened. She looked sad when I played with the kids today, she was upset when I mentioned putting up the Christmas tree on Friday, and even said that aside from actually going and chopping down the tree, I haven't helped put the decorations on it in years (even though I swore I had to myself).

As for me, there were so few negatives in our relationship in my mind that I never took time to make a list of them. If something was upsetting me I said something about it right then. The only negatives would be our lack luster sex life, which we discussed recently and realized we were both thinking each other didn't want us, her making me ask over and over what was wrong before she would tell me what she is upset about, and her unwillingness to call or text when she was going to be late getting home. Really, it is a short list.

I hope to create enough positives in my life and around here to sort of jog her memory, or at least encourage her to want more. I still plan to avoid forcing any issues between us but damn what I would give for some sort of progression that was clearly visible lol.

Anyhow, must finish paper and feed kids.


----------



## Kolors

happyman64 said:


> I think you should do your own letter.
> 
> Give her an envelope.
> 
> Inside should be empty.
> 
> 
> When she asks you where the list is tell her this.
> 
> "The list is in her head. That if she wants to continue living in the past and harboring resentment against you then that is her decision.
> 
> Let her know that you have made a conscious decision to live for the future and be the best man, father and husband that you can be.
> 
> The choice in the end is hers. She can decide to be with you or without you.
> 
> But you have already made your choice and you hope she sees that in you."
> 
> That is what you tell her.
> 
> Remember. You can only control you!
> 
> HM


As epic as that is, I recently had a conversation with her that pretty much covered that. My changes are real, I am sorry that the past was rough, but this is the me that exists now. Old me is gone and I hope current you goes with him. It basically all boils down to you and your choices from this point on, I am not going to go back to being what I was.

Since then I have really cleaned my head up and feel better about whatever her final decision is. I always hope it doesn't lead to me being away from my home and my children for a really long time but being gone for some time is better than divorced forever.


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> I have no idea if she has positives about our relationship or can honestly even remember them. She certainly never talks about them or has mentioned them in our MC sessions. I have noticed a trend, not only with my wife but with many spouses on these boards, where the positives are replaced with negatives or at least the positives weigh much less than the negatives when it comes to the balance of a relationship.
> 
> I do not believe that she is willing to discuss the positive things that have occurred in our relationship, not with me, not with our counselor. When she sees positive things now it saddens her, or at least on the outside she appears saddened. She looked sad when I played with the kids today, she was upset when I mentioned putting up the Christmas tree on Friday, and even said that aside from actually going and chopping down the tree, I haven't helped put the decorations on it in years (even though I swore I had to myself).
> 
> As for me, there were so few negatives in our relationship in my mind that I never took time to make a list of them. If something was upsetting me I said something about it right then. The only negatives would be our lack luster sex life, which we discussed recently and realized we were both thinking each other didn't want us, her making me ask over and over what was wrong before she would tell me what she is upset about, and her unwillingness to call or text when she was going to be late getting home. Really, it is a short list.
> 
> I hope to create enough positives in my life and around here to sort of jog her memory, or at least encourage her to want more. I still plan to avoid forcing any issues between us but damn what I would give for some sort of progression that was clearly visible lol.
> 
> Anyhow, must finish paper and feed kids.


The progression is never visible. You will feel it inside.

Do not force any issues. A confrontation will not make anything better at this time.


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> As epic as that is, I recently had a conversation with her that pretty much covered that. My changes are real, I am sorry that the past was rough, but this is the me that exists now. Old me is gone and I hope current you goes with him. It basically all boils down to you and your choices from this point on, I am not going to go back to being what I was.
> 
> Since then I have really cleaned my head up and feel better about whatever her final decision is. I always hope it doesn't lead to me being away from my home and my children for a really long time but being gone for some time is better than divorced forever.


I agree with you. The key is clearing up your head and keeping the focus on you.

You will end up in a much better place in life no matter what your wife decides.

Believe it.

Good night.


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## Tobyboy

When I first posted on your thread it was because of all the red flags in your sitch that screamed infidelity. Now, not so much. What I believe you have is a WAW spouse. I suggest you visit the Divorce Busting forums and do some reading. There are many fine posters there with very similar struggles as yours.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Your observation that you are getting along better because she sees the end in sight is probably correct. Your presence is torture to her. However because you are done she no longer has to document and justify her revulsion for you. She can even at times feel nostalgia for your relationship, for the moment she may even feel small pangs of sad love for you. This positice flow in your direction will weaken with time. She has been making lists of your failures to explain to both you and herself. She feels that if she tells you she is brave and honest. Of course arguing or discussing your failures just feeds her contempt for you.

The sooner you can can separate the better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Tobyboy said:


> What I believe you have is a WAW spouse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm glad it only took a couple months to convince someone lol. I really tried to find an affair when this all started but it just wasn't there. I almost went mad on here as it seemed like every third comment was about one.

Yes, she built up her resentment and unhappiness over time and was on her way out the door when this all started. She now tells me that she honestly believes that if I had just let her go for a few days or weeks then most all of this could have been avoided. So for those in the future, just let her go the first time she asks for a little space.

I read the divorce busting book, even about half of it with her, but it did nothing for our relationship. You need a partner that actively wants a relationship or has not locked up all of her feelings for it to work.


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## Kolors

LongWalk said:


> Your observation that you are getting along better because she sees the end in sight is probably correct. Your presence is torture to her. However because you are done she no longer has to document and justify her revulsion for you. She can even at times feel nostalgia for your relationship, for the moment she may even feel small pangs of sad love for you. This positice flow in your direction will weaken with time. She has been making lists of your failures to explain to both you and herself. She feels that if she tells you she is brave and honest. Of course arguing or discussing your failures just feeds her contempt for you.
> 
> The sooner you can can separate the better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I never know whether to look forward to your posts for backup or for smack down lol.

Revulsion is such a nasty word. She hasn't questioned loving me, she has questioned being able to be in a relationship with me still. Granted, she is not "in love". 

I do agree with the bravery comment. She has made many statements about being strong enough to say or do things now where she never felt that way before. That totally amazes me to hear from her because I always admired her strength.

But yes, the separation is rapidly on its way. It is helping that I am out of the house 5-6 nights a week and we only see each other maybe two hours a day.

Its also helping not discussing failures. Actually, it helps not discussing anything lol.


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> I'm glad it only took a couple months to convince someone lol. I really tried to find an affair when this all started but it just wasn't there. I almost went mad on here as it seemed like every third comment was about one.
> 
> Yes, she built up her resentment and unhappiness over time and was on her way out the door when this all started. * She now tells me that she honestly believes that if I had just let her go for a few days or weeks then most all of this could have been avoided.* So for those in the future, just let her go the first time she asks for a little space.
> 
> I read the divorce busting book, even about half of it with her, but it did nothing for our relationship. You need a partner that actively wants a relationship or has not locked up all of her feelings for it to work.


That is a lie that she has convinced herself in her own mind is a truth.

Your wife has spent years building a wall of hate against you that when she sees you being healthy minded and engaged with the family it angers her.

You need to focus on being the best you that you can be.

Like I said. If your wife decides to throw the marriage away because she is not able to lower the wall and dissipate the resentment towards you then there is no marriage.

She needs to do the hard work. It will take months for her to ever get to this point in her life if at all.

I do not think she is a WAW.

I do think she is deeply hurt and battling with herself about you.

And that is the worse kind of dilemma. Fighting with yourself....

Keep the focus on you. No matter what happens you need to come out of this event in your life intact, whole and knowing in your mind you did everything you could to keep your family and marriage intact.

The rest is up to her.

And she needs to her share all on her own. You cannot do that for her or she will just rebuild the wall and this mess will happen again in a year or two.

HM


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## Kolors

happyman64 said:


> I do think she is deeply hurt and battling with herself about you.
> 
> And that is the worse kind of dilemma. Fighting with yourself....
> 
> 
> HM


This pretty much sums the whole thread up from start to finish.


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## LongWalk

I agree with HappyMan and you. "Revulsion" is indeed a strong word. However, it is not far from the truth, literally. You can lie in bed together with your children and tenderness exists between you. This could be love but for her sexual disinterest in you. Your long tolerance of the death of eros must be part of the cause of her wish to remove you from her sight. You should never have accepted the sexless marriage, for it hollowed out your relationship.

You once assumed that you were on probation. I think that is a misunderstanding on your part. Your wife will continue to have strong feelings towards you even after you separate. Perhaps very limited contact with you will, as she says, restore her regard for you. This will only have significance if she feels a new respect for you.

1) you must detach from her faster than she does from you - transform yourself from dumpee to dumper;
2) you must make the positive changes in yourself a natural result of her rejection

Nothing will drive this home faster than change in your physical appearance coupled with self assurance. Validation by other women, not losers but happy women, will shock her. It will be proof to her. But there is still a large possibility that you will not recreate passion, just frustration for the escape of what should have been.

I think that once you value yourself more highly, you will see that she is a far less attractive spouse than you now consider. You will feel antipathy for the sexless compromise marriage that has made you less of the man you once were. 

The desire to do charitable work is partially an unhealthy desire to negate healthy self interest. You need to become hard headed. You have economic problems and yet you offered support to a person mixed up in drugs. That sort of generosity causes your wife to despair. If you had had a reliable paying tenant, she would respected your ability to bring home fresh kill to feed your children.

As to the affair or its non existence, either your wife is asexual or she fantasizing for him. She may or may not have assigned your replacement a face.

If your wife does not desire a man and you have become less of a man to suit her, that is profoundly unhealthy. If she longs for a man, but does not see him in you, then you must change yourself. 

The psychiatrist's evaluation — that you don't need antidepresents — is an important objective affirmation of your core health. Who needs to change more to become happy, you or your wife? 

Don't waste your time solving a problem that you cannot fathom.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sammy3

Wow, Longwalk, can I lay on your couch next?

~sammy


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## LongWalk

Sammy,

Is what I wrote wrong? 

I don't want to paint a false picture. I am just trying to understand how two people could end up in such a situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sammy3

Oh no, not at all!  
So much insight. Very interesting thoughts. Lots to think about. Completely the opposite! I like reading what you write. 

~sammy


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## LongWalk

Kulors seems an honest well meaning person. His wife does not sound horrible. However, they have allowed their problems to consume the goodwill in their relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sammy3

And you seem a very caring, honest, intelligent, person yourself to write and take the time to offer what you do.Don't stop sharing your wisdom. 

~sammy


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## Kolors

LongWalk said:


> Kulors seems an honest well meaning person. His wife does not sound horrible. However, they have allowed their problems to consume the goodwill in their relationship.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes. We are really both great people. People speak well of us and we get along great with everyone else in the world. Hell, the last few days we have got along with each other as well.

And yes, when this very first started I assumed that it was a probationary thing. I assumed that she would lay it all out there, tell me all the problems, and wait to see how I reacted.

I reacted poorly, I jumped to conclusions, and instead of being a man about it and just doing what needed to be done, I went the opposite way and became a cry baby.

The rental home thing is a little off. I let an employee stay there to take care of it for me while it was on the market for sale. He had been clean for years and was working for me 5 days a week with a flawless record.

But yes, my generosity has pissed my wife off many times in our relationship.

Anyhow, many right ons to everyone today. We have MC tomorrow night, I think I need a drink lol.


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## Kolors

Whew last paper written for the semester and my first final exam knocked out. Not bad for 12 hours! 

Today is going to be a strange one. We have MC tonight but I really have no idea where our counselor will go with it lol. When we parted last week she asked us to go our separate ways immediately or at least separate in the house and not speak to each other until I am out. She also asked us to find time in the next two days to come back but we didn't. We would have had to pay for a sitter and I would have missed a shift at work so we decided to just hold off.

When I look back at the last week, I wish this is how I would have handled this all since the very start. It took a while to really see what my wife meant by "space" and I was just plain afraid of it. Granted, a little space may have made her want to run even farther but I should have backed off from the start.

I will always offer that advice to anyone on this forum that posts that his wife asked for space! Give it to her now, back off and man up!

Anyhow, I almost do not want to go because the tension has died down quite a bit in the house to a livable level. Last night was just plain fun hanging out, talking about the holidays, watching our favorite show on TV, it was just normal life without fear or hurt really. There is still tension but I have no idea if it is just in my mind or if my wife is still waiting to pounce on me when I make a mistake lol.

I've missed the old her and it was just great to see her again. LW is probably right, there is a really good chance that is just some sort of relationship death throws, the last escaping feelings of what once was.

But I hope you are wrong LW! 

Oh and as for confirmation of validation of other women or whatever, I actually had a little ego boost like that last week. One of the females that I work with now asked one of the guys about what was up with me. Even though I would have no interest in her, it felt good to see that my personality is still appealing to those around me. I am kinda glad to know that "I" am not dead, even in this 60% here form right now I am doing pretty good!


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## happyman64

Kolors 

Go to MC with an open mind.

Listen to what goes on and do not let yourself get dragged into any confrontation or drama.

Of course women will be attracted to you. Get that eunuch nonsense out of your head.

Again the key is to fix you so you will be a better man no matter what happens to your marriage.

And while I understand you miss your wife remember it is the old fun loving wife that you miss.

Not the angry woman who scorns you now for doing the right things.

It takes two to make a marriage. It takes two to fix a marriage. And that is with both parties wanting that marriage to work.

You cannot do it by yourself. Understand that.

Calm, confident and a great guy is who you are.

Now be that person.

HM


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## just got it 55

Kolors two women where I work were having a conversation about the availability of "Good Men" 1 was late 50's The other was early Thirties

They said too many mamas boys.... too many players (Bullsh!ters).... too many men that could not even decide where to go to dinner

The younger one said If they can't show some leadership and make a decission She was done

How do you feel now ?

School him HM64


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## Kolors

I feel the same lol. I've never had issues getting women. I really don't think that I'll have issues later down the road if we divorce. I just really don't have the mindset to think about them currently. That, I am pretty sure, is because I am still madly in love with my wife, even though she is not madly or even mostly in love with me. Until she cuts the ties I will stay true to her.

I will however keep prepping myself for the end. There is a very real chance of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> I feel the same lol. I've never had issues getting women. I really don't think that I'll have issues later down the road if we divorce. I just really don't have the mindset to think about them currently. That, I am pretty sure, is because I am still madly in love with my wife, even though she is not madly or even mostly in love with me. Until she cuts the ties I will stay true to her.
> 
> I will however keep prepping myself for the end. There is a very real chance of it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I want what you want...... I just wanted to remind you that you have options


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## Kolors

I wish I could describe the session from tonight but it was a blur. Not like the last one where it was full of pain and the separation talk. This one actually involved our relationship and some of the things going on inside it. 

The counselor said that we had made progress. Not marriage saving, come running into my arms and love me progress, but progress none the less. She really didn't believe that we would have gone in that direction. She actually called me beforehand to change our time and sounded surprised when I told her that I was still living at home and we had gotten along pretty well all week.

Instead of meeting with her next week she put us on two weeks from today. 

I have to learn to not say but. I screw up with I do say stuff like "I know you wanted to go do that but . . . " Pretty much anything after but is BS. If I know she wants something I should just do it instead of justifying my own decision. I do that a lot so it is going to take some work.

Other than that, don't rock the boat, keep on task, love the kids, let the wife realize that the changes are for real and honest, and above all else, do not fight in circles.

She asked my wife to bounce something personal off me to see if I listened. I hope she does that. I'd love to feel like I was "in" even if it was just for a moment.


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## happyman64

> She asked my wife to bounce something personal off me to see if I listened. I hope she does that. I'd love to feel like I was "in" even if it was just for a moment.


This called a fitness test.

Realize this.

Pass this.

So take our advice because that is what is best for you.

Shut up.

And listen.

Focus on you and your kids.

It is all about being the man you want to be. 

And this really has nothing to do with your wife.

Let her deal with her own issues.

HM


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## LongWalk

Funny that you are chef. Sometime when something is burnt, that's it the whole thing has to be tossed. Sometimes the burnt stuff is just a single layer stuck to the bottom. If you scrap at it too much, you just ruin was completely okay. That unburnt portion could be 95% of the dish but no one will want it if there are black specks in every bite.

Worst thing you can do is turn the heat up.

Once my ex and I went for a long cycle tour. Got back and discovered that I left a pot of goose berry jam on simmer for many hours with lid on. The temperature had been so low that it miraculously had not burned. Turned out like extra thick marmalade. Just amazing to eat. All an accident that could have been a smoke filled apartment and an angry landlord.

Your marriage may turnout ok. But you need to maintain real mental discipline.


----------



## Kolors

I am trying my best on the mental discipline. I asked her a while back if she was OK with only speaking about us on nights that we had counseling and she was OK with that.

I still have a couple issues that I am struggling with and that make me want to say things to her that will only cause setbacks.

#1 She has become very close with one guy friend over the last few years. They have not ever been physically close but he is the guy that has replaced me as her "go to person" for conversation and humor. I read a lot of their texts and chat logs a while back and while there was nothing alarming, it still hurt to see someone else having all the fun with my wife while she sat at the other end of the couch not speaking to me. Truth is, I am totally jealous of him. I would talk to him about it but he would just tell me wife and that would destroy any work that we have done. When I talk to her about it she always reassures me that they are friends and yes, he replaced me quite a bit mentally because they worked with each other day after day and he spoke to her when I was too busy for her.

I really want to put it behind me but I just can't. She still chats with him every night and texts each day and it drives me nuts. She won't cut him out or even cut back so it just makes it harder.

#2 How do I even hang out with her anymore? Our situation is strange. I have no idea what to talk to her about when we do sit around. I can't talk about what we used to talk about because so much of it involved our future. I can't talk about her friends, or plans for life, or things around the house, or our relationship. I want to rebuild our friendship first but it is just so hard to do since all roads eventually come back to me and her or one of our plans for the future. Do I just show her that I am open to her and then wait? I know if I just sit there she will sit back and forget I am in the room to chat with her friend. 

#3 Last night. She told me last night that she wakes up every few days and things that she should just go ahead and give me another chance but then I do something 24 hours later and she changes her mind. I am sure it is things like questioning her about her "friend" or forcing circular talks about our relationship that cause the new break. I had never heard (or chose not to hear) her say that she had seriously thought about giving me another chance. It was bittersweet at best. On one hand I was so happy to hear that at least somewhere inside her a flicker still happens where our marriage could still be a possibility, but on the other hand the flicker keeps failing to ignite due to issues with me. 

I know, keep my mouth shut, be a great father, be a good man, and stay focused on myself. I know that her perception of me is something that only she can change. 

#4 Thanksgiving. I made a serious error yesterday on our plans for Thanksgiving. We had talked about my family's Thanksgiving and she had told me that she was uncomfortable about going since my cousin knew about our issues. I assured her that he would not be there, nor would his parents or sister so she had nothing to worry about. I told her the truth, my whole family loves her to death and loves to see her and the kids. She says that she told me that she didn't want to go but I never heard that. I guess that I just ignored her or talked over her saying it but I assumed that she was going with us. Last night I said something about it on the way home from MC and she told me that she wasn't going and that she had already told me no. I don't believe that I argued with her about it but I did tell her that I was sorry that I did not hear her say it and I would just take the kids.

I hate that she doesn't want to come. The family really does love her and I thought it would be fun for her to see everyone and watch the kids go nuts with their little cousins. I will not mention it to her again, it is her choice but I really hate that she is going to sit here alone on a day where we all give thanks for what we have. Maybe she still feels like she has nothing.

#5 She made a comment in MC about how I never speak about our son. That is true, I rarely talk about him in MC, mostly because he is so small that he has no idea what is going on around here. He is just a happy little guy that we all love terribly. Most of the talk about the kids has revolved around our daughter who turns 5 in a few weeks. I didn't have anything to say about her comment but it made me feel like she thinks that I don't care about him. I really love my little guy, he is the thing that really helped me the most when my anxiety and panic first started. When I would get home and finally sit down I could put him in my lap with a bottle and all the anxiety just went away. Holding him made me feel safe and like someone in this world loved me regardless of my flaws. I am so scared of this all falling apart because each day he does something new and I do not want to miss it. 

Aside from all this baggage, I work late tonight, she works until 3am tomorrow night and then we have Thanksgiving. After that we have Friday free, which may be the day we go cut down a Christmas tree, and then we both work Saturday night.

Oh, and I have a job interview tomorrow. From looking online it seems to pay around 40k, which is not great but it beats the hell out of what I am making now! I met the guy today and we hit it off pretty well, tomorrow should be a breeze since it is just a formal phone interview with the same guy. 

So yea, off to work I go. Any advice would be great.

That is advice other than the obvious, don't talk to her about any of this, keep my head straight, love my family, be a good man, and let it work itself out, that is. 

And, if my marriage ever works out for the better, I am sending gift cards to everyone that helped for a steak dinner. Between you guys, two local friends, and our MC I have managed to regain my sanity and hopefully a foothold on my marriage. Thanks again.


----------



## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> I am trying my best on the mental discipline. I asked her a while back if she was OK with only speaking about us on nights that we had counseling and she was OK with that.
> 
> I still have a couple issues that I am struggling with and that make me want to say things to her that will only cause setbacks.
> 
> #1 She has become very close with one guy friend over the last few years. They have not ever been physically close but he is the guy that has replaced me as her "go to person" for conversation and humor. I read a lot of their texts and chat logs a while back and while there was nothing alarming, it still hurt to see someone else having all the fun with my wife while she sat at the other end of the couch not speaking to me. Truth is, I am totally jealous of him. I would talk to him about it but he would just tell me wife and that would destroy any work that we have done. When I talk to her about it she always reassures me that they are friends and yes, he replaced me quite a bit mentally because they worked with each other day after day and he spoke to her when I was too busy for her.
> 
> This has to stop
> 
> I really want to put it behind me but I just can't. She still chats with him every night and texts each day and it drives me nuts. She won't cut him out or even cut back so it just makes it harder.
> 
> Repeat this has to stop
> 
> #2 How do I even hang out with her anymore? Our situation is strange. I have no idea what to talk to her about when we do sit around. I can't talk about what we used to talk about because so much of it involved our future. I can't talk about her friends, or plans for life, or things around the house, or our relationship. I want to rebuild our friendship first but it is just so hard to do since all roads eventually come back to me and her or one of our plans for the future. Do I just show her that I am open to her and then wait? I know if I just sit there she will sit back and forget I am in the room to chat with her friend.
> 
> *180*
> 
> #3 Last night. She told me last night that she wakes up every few days and things that she should just go ahead and give me another chance but then I do something 24 hours later and she changes her mind.
> 
> WTF She needs to be giving you clear signals
> 
> 
> I am sure it is things like questioning her about her "friend" or forcing circular talks about our relationship that cause the new break. I had never heard (or chose not to hear) her say that she had seriously thought about giving me another chance. It was bittersweet at best. On one hand I was so happy to hear that at least somewhere inside her a flicker still happens where our marriage could still be a possibility, but on the other hand the flicker keeps failing to ignite due to issues with me.
> 
> I know, keep my mouth shut, be a great father, be a good man, and stay focused on myself. I know that her perception of me is something that only she can change.
> 
> *180*
> 
> #4 Thanksgiving. I made a serious error yesterday on our plans for Thanksgiving. We had talked about my family's Thanksgiving and she had told me that she was uncomfortable about going since my cousin knew about our issues. I assured her that he would not be there, nor would his parents or sister so she had nothing to worry about. I told her the truth, my whole family loves her to death and loves to see her and the kids. She says that she told me that she didn't want to go but I never heard that. I guess that I just ignored her or talked over her saying it but I assumed that she was going with us. Last night I said something about it on the way home from MC and she told me that she wasn't going and that she had already told me no. I don't believe that I argued with her about it but I did tell her that I was sorry that I did not hear her say it and I would just take the kids.
> 
> She has larger issues than you
> 
> I hate that she doesn't want to come.
> 
> Could this be a guilty conscience ????
> 
> The family really does love her and I thought it would be fun for her to see everyone and watch the kids go nuts with their little cousins. I will not mention it to her again, it is her choice but I really hate that she is going to sit here alone on a day where we all give thanks for what we have. Maybe she still feels like she has nothing.
> 
> Can't see the forest through the trees
> 
> #5 She made a comment in MC about how I never speak about our son. That is true, I rarely talk about him in MC, mostly because he is so small that he has no idea what is going on around here. He is just a happy little guy that we all love terribly. Most of the talk about the kids has revolved around our daughter who turns 5 in a few weeks. I didn't have anything to say about her comment but it made me feel like she thinks that I don't care about him. I really love my little guy, he is the thing that really helped me the most when my anxiety and panic first started. When I would get home and finally sit down I could put him in my lap with a bottle and all the anxiety just went away. Holding him made me feel safe and like someone in this world loved me regardless of my flaws. *I am so scared of this all falling apart *because each day he does something new and I do not want to miss it.
> 
> Don't let this become a self fulfilled prophecy
> 
> Aside from all this baggage, I work late tonight, *she works until 3am *tomorrow night and then we have Thanksgiving. After that we have Friday free, which may be the day we go cut down a Christmas tree, and then we both work Saturday night.
> 
> A bit of a concern
> 
> *Oh, and I have a job interview tomorrow*. From looking online it seems to pay around 40k, which is not great but it beats the hell out of what I am making now! I met the guy today and we hit it off pretty well, tomorrow should be a breeze since it is just a formal phone interview with the same guy.
> 
> Good luck with that
> 
> So yea, off to work I go. Any advice would be great.
> 
> 180
> 
> Remain Positive
> 
> That is advice other than the obvious, don't talk to her about any of this, keep my head straight, love my family, be a good man, and let it work itself out, that is.
> 
> And, if my marriage ever works out for the better, I am sending gift cards to everyone that helped for a steak dinner. Between you guys, two local friends, and our MC I have managed to regain my sanity and hopefully a foothold on my marriage. Thanks again.


Other than that Mrs Lincoln Have a good Thanksgiving


----------



## LongWalk

This was a very important post. JustGoIt55 has pinned down many points. I can understand that what you wrote pained you but I think you're honest, and ultimately it is honesty towards yourself since we are only cyber comrades in a confusing world.

(I once loved steak but as you get older the body protests that it is too hard to digest. Who would have thought that the greed and apetite of youth would wane?



Kolors said:


> I am trying my best on the mental discipline. I asked her a while back if she was OK with only speaking about us on nights that we had counseling and she was OK with that.
> 
> I still have a couple issues that I am struggling with and that make me want to say things to her that will only cause setbacks.
> 
> #1 She has become very close with one guy friend over the last few years. They have not ever been physically close but he is the guy that has replaced me as her "go to person" for conversation and humor. I read a lot of their texts and chat logs a while back and while there was nothing alarming, it still hurt to see someone else having all the fun with my wife while she sat at the other end of the couch not speaking to me. Truth is, I am totally jealous of him. I would talk to him about it but he would just tell me wife and that would destroy any work that we have done. When I talk to her about it she always reassures me that they are friends and yes, he replaced me quite a bit mentally because they worked with each other day after day and he spoke to her when I was too busy for her.
> 
> *You have sworn over and over that infidelity is not an issue. Once you wife felt guilty about being emotionally too close to someone, if I remember right. Alas, no longer. She has replaced you with him and it is in your face.
> 
> We can well understand why you have not brought this up before. His relationship with your wife is threat to your relationship. Moreover, it may be the more important relationship in her life.*
> 
> I really want to put it behind me but I just can't. She still chats with him every night and texts each day and it drives me nuts. She won't cut him out or even cut back so it just makes it harder.
> 
> *At this stage in the shutdown of your marriage, confronting you fear, will simply hand her the excuse to declare your marriage over. So, you tolerate this blatant emotional affair.
> 
> Let us suppose he is happily married or gay. She has nonetheless already openly violated her marriage vows by pumping her feelings to him and accepting whatever he pumps into her in return.
> 
> Since you have already gone into the separation phase, your wife sees herself as divorced except for the physical and financial separation. She may not be the asexual woman you assume her to be. She may fantasizing about him in a sexual context already.
> 
> But regardless, your wife knows that you want to connect with her and she is denying you this opportunity.*
> 
> #2 How do I even hang out with her anymore? Our situation is strange. I have no idea what to talk to her about when we do sit around. I can't talk about what we used to talk about because so much of it involved our future. I can't talk about her friends, or plans for life, or things around the house, or our relationship. I want to rebuild our friendship first but it is just so hard to do since all roads eventually come back to me and her or one of our plans for the future. Do I just show her that I am open to her and then wait? I know if I just sit there she will sit back and forget I am in the room to chat with her friend.
> 
> *This is precisely how she intends it to be. She is strangling the emotional connection between you. You are intelligent and you both see and feel it. Friendship is not your goal. You want your wife to be your lover and friend in that order. What good is wife who doesn't want sex with her husband?
> 
> You cannot imagine chatting up other women because you love your wife. If she dares to chat with him all the time. She will dare to chat with other men and sleep with them. If she hasn't, she will very soon after you move out.*
> 
> #3 Last night. She told me last night that she wakes up every few days and things that she should just go ahead and give me another chance but then I do something 24 hours later and she changes her mind. I am sure it is things like questioning her about her "friend" or forcing circular talks about our relationship that cause the new break. I had never heard (or chose not to hear) her say that she had seriously thought about giving me another chance. It was bittersweet at best. On one hand I was so happy to hear that at least somewhere inside her a flicker still happens where our marriage could still be a possibility, but on the other hand the flicker keeps failing to ignite due to issues with me.
> 
> *This is her messed up mind. You may or may not make mistakes, but let us be straight now. Very little that you do right is deemed good. She sees it as too little, too late – "Why didn't he do that before?"*
> 
> I know, keep my mouth shut, be a great father, be a good man, and stay focused on myself. I know that her perception of me is something that only she can change.
> 
> #4 Thanksgiving. I made a serious error yesterday on our plans for Thanksgiving. We had talked about my family's Thanksgiving and she had told me that she was uncomfortable about going since my cousin knew about our issues. I assured her that he would not be there, nor would his parents or sister so she had nothing to worry about. I told her the truth, my whole family loves her to death and loves to see her and the kids. She says that she told me that she didn't want to go but I never heard that. I guess that I just ignored her or talked over her saying it but I assumed that she was going with us. Last night I said something about it on the way home from MC and she told me that she wasn't going and that she had already told me no. I don't believe that I argued with her about it but I did tell her that I was sorry that I did not hear her say it and I would just take the kids.
> 
> *You made no mistake at all. Thanksgiving is a super important holiday. She doesn't want to go because she is divorcing you in stages. Not going for Thanksgiving is a stage in dumping you. She doesn't want to think about OM or future OM while eating delicious food with people who love her.
> 
> Have you considered having a turkey at home and inviting relatives to your place instead. Let her leave if she doesn't want to see them.
> 
> Is OM married? I hate to say it but if they are cheating or wanting to, Thanksgiving is an excellent opportunity.*
> 
> I hate that she doesn't want to come. The family really does love her and I thought it would be fun for her to see everyone and watch the kids go nuts with their little cousins. I will not mention it to her again, it is her choice but I really hate that she is going to sit here alone on a day where we all give thanks for what we have. Maybe she still feels like she has nothing.
> 
> *Will she sit alone? I have my doubts. *
> 
> #5 She made a comment in MC about how I never speak about our son. That is true, I rarely talk about him in MC, mostly because he is so small that he has no idea what is going on around here. He is just a happy little guy that we all love terribly. Most of the talk about the kids has revolved around our daughter who turns 5 in a few weeks. I didn't have anything to say about her comment but it made me feel like she thinks that I don't care about him. I really love my little guy, he is the thing that really helped me the most when my anxiety and panic first started. When I would get home and finally sit down I could put him in my lap with a bottle and all the anxiety just went away. Holding him made me feel safe and like someone in this world loved me regardless of my flaws. I am so scared of this all falling apart because each day he does something new and I do not want to miss it.
> 
> *Does it bother you that your wife did not nurse your son?
> 
> Your children will always love you. You will come through for them. Do not doubt yourself. Your wife criticizes your parenting because she is looking to justify her decision to divorce.*
> 
> Aside from all this baggage, I work late tonight, she works until 3am tomorrow night and then we have Thanksgiving. After that we have Friday free, which may be the day we go cut down a Christmas tree, and then we both work Saturday night.
> 
> Oh, and I have a job interview tomorrow. From looking online it seems to pay around 40k, which is not great but it beats the hell out of what I am making now! I met the guy today and we hit it off pretty well, tomorrow should be a breeze since it is just a formal phone interview with the same guy.
> 
> So yea, off to work I go. Any advice would be great.
> 
> *Think about the love you have for your two children before the interview. Let that calm you. Be of course be conversant about their business needs. Listen during the interview. Look them in the eye.
> 
> If they explain some goal and plan, then ask if you can do it. Pause, as if to say it must be a challenge and you are thinking, then say that you can in one sentence and leave it at that. Be positive, etc. Believe in yourself. I think we believe in you.
> 
> Don't wear white socks*
> 
> That is advice other than the obvious, don't talk to her about any of this, keep my head straight, love my family, be a good man, and let it work itself out, that is.
> 
> And, if my marriage ever works out for the better, I am sending gift cards to everyone that helped for a steak dinner. Between you guys, two local friends, and our MC I have managed to regain my sanity and hopefully a foothold on my marriage. Thanks again.
> 
> *Your marriage may survive but I think you face a hard road. You and your wife are likely to split. She may want you back because you are going to make a decent living again, be a good father and have started dating better looking more positive women than your wife.
> 
> She will come looking for you if her rebound relationship(s) do not pan out. This is highly likely given her crooked thinking.
> 
> Why on earth would she ruin Thanksgiving? Wouldn't it be more honest to say that she wants a divorce and therefore she doesn't dare to face your family. She feels guilty about OM. She feels guilty because she knows you are a good guy and she is giving up, but for what?
> 
> Listen to some music that will make you strong.*


----------



## just got it 55

Kolors : I think we may need to take the gloves off here and bring some reality to the situation.

LW was dead on point here and went further than I wanted to go I my last post.

Your wife must be being influenced by outside interests .There I go being light handed (EA / PA )??

If you do not stand up for yourself...marriage...child you will fail without question.

The worst decesion to make is no decesion

Don't walk that tightrope too long

Sorry for the added pressure but there it is

55


----------



## Kolors

Well I can't stand up for myself yet, it creates big drama and we are not healthy enough for anyone to take a stand. When our counselor finally gets to me then i will talk about it:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> *Well I can't stand up for myself yet*, it creates big drama and we are not healthy enough for anyone to take a stand. When our counselor finally gets to me then i will talk about it:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You stand up for yourself at all times young man


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## Kolors

Allow me to rephrase that then, I know when to pick my battles. It isn't time for that battle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

Fair enough But Tick...Tock


----------



## happyman64

Don't mind if I chime in.

Your list was great.

Of all the things you should not do.

You are learning. You are aware.

You are your worst enemy and you know it.

Now fix it.

My last comment. I get what your wife is saying about Thanksgiving. And her attitude sucks. She has probably blabbed about your marital issues to enough people on her side.

This is just an excuse.

So counter it.

Do Thanksgiving at home. With your wife. Go to your parents later for dessert or on Friday....

Think out of the box. If you can do it without hurting your parents then clear the day with your wife.

Make the effort if you can. If she has a meltdown just back off.

If it makes her happy then so be it.

Good Luck.

HM


----------



## Kolors

Well, I did talk to her about Thanksgiving tonight. I asked her what she planned to do all day because I hated to see her sit home alone while me and the kids were at my families house - Grandparents to be exact.

She had some very valid answers - 

#1 She will be at work until 3AM, basically working 20 hours straight. She really will not feel like getting up on a few hours of sleep and dealing with my family.

#2 This particular part of my family has a bunch of people that I do not even know so she doesn't want to sit there and feel awkward like she does each year. Honestly, I feel awkward around alot of them.

#3 Us. I really feel like she is trying to limit the full on "us as a family" interactions. The more we do things as a family, the harder the break is and the more she questions things.

I should have left it alone at, "I just don't want to". I pushed the issue where I shouldn't have I am sure. I am just one of those people that ask why to everything, just like my 4 year old.


I did stand up about the other guys that she had been in contact with. In particular the mutual friend from several months ago that had flirted with her via text. She told me, after too much discussion, that he had called her today to tell her that he would be in town starting tomorrow and wanted to do lunch. She told him that she could not and that he should spend his time with his family. She also told him that if he wanted to hang out then he could come by the restaurant where she worked and talk for a bit since there are tons of people there and there would be no chances for anything to mislead him. I was shocked. This was such a huge point of contention in our relationship, she basically picked his friendship over our relationship a few months ago. Today she pushed him away to avoid issues with me.

We also spoke about the current friend and I agreed that they should be friends but she really needs to avoid doing or saying things that are misleading and spending so much time trying to stay connected with him. I understand they were close but we cannot sit and talk without me feeling like she is waiting for me to leave so they can text. She got pissed and tried to call him to say that they could not be friends anymore but I told her that was just silly. Luckily he didn't answer. I don't want her to lose friends, I just want some of my space back. 

She did say that we cannot hang out and be normal because things always circle back to us. I agreed and I hate that it does. I promised her that no matter what, there would be no talk of us, even a casual mention, for the rest of the week. No questions about what we were going for the holidays or how she felt about anything, or even talking about past successes or failures. She thinks that I am incapable of it. I asked her to not do anything for the same amount of time that brings a discussion to the forefront, like spending all her time when I am around texting and messaging other guys, or assuming that everything that I have to say is going to lead to something bad.

I did not think about doing something here Thursday. I think I will bring a plate of desserts home and throw a little shindig for us as a family. Maybe fire up the fireplace and start a long list of Christmas movies.

Also, she finally agreed to let me call guy #1. She finally admitted that it was between me and him, not me and her. I sent him a text from her phone to see if he was awake and we never heard back from him. I plan to call him this weekend so I can get the whole thing put to rest. I hate holding onto animosity.

Anyhow, sleepytime. Busy day tomorrow packaging up a ton of other peoples Thanksgiving dinners then watching the kids all night.


----------



## LongWalk

Chin up. 

You are making progress.

The situation is difficult.

You must get through the holiday.

Think dumper, not dumpee.


----------



## happyman64

LW is right.

You are making progress. With yourself.

Stay in control of you.

Have a great Thanksgiving with your kids and family.

I know you guys are tight on $$$ but all the hours you both work as well as the crazy work schedule does not help your situation for either of you.

I am sure you know this.

HM


----------



## Chaparral

Kolors said:


> Well I can't stand up for myself yet, it creates big drama and we are not healthy enough for anyone to take a stand. When our counselor finally gets to me then i will talk about it:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is the crux of the whole matter. You are trying to salvage a marriage with three people in it. Its not going to get better as long as your wife is having an emotional affair wit her "friend". You have been in the wrong section all along. 

Number one , emotional affairs are more damaging that physical affairs. The distance they are apart makes no difference. Get the book below. Follow the link or go to Barnes and Noble and get the book, NOT JUST FRIENDS .

For now, pretty much allher complaints about you have been bull ****.

Second, to really open your eyes, start a new thread in the coping with infidelity section of TAM.

Unless you can get your wife to read the NJF book and get it , you have no hope.


----------



## Tobyboy

Tobyboy said:


> When I first posted on your thread it was because of all the red flags in your sitch that screamed infidelity. Now, not so much. What I believe you have is a WAW spouse. I suggest you visit the Divorce Busting forums and do some reading. There are many fine posters there with very similar struggles as yours.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


After reading your latest posts...I retract what I posted above. There is and continued infidelity. Time to nut up!! You can't "nice" her back into the marriage.....never seen it work!
Listen to LW, HM64 and JGI55.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

Kolors :It seems your wife does not want to face the truth

Which is what ??

HM LW your thoughts


----------



## Kolors

She is supposed to be cutting it out, we will see if it happens.

She does understand how it makes any sort of working things out impossible when someone else is getting the things that I want, like being able to laugh and joke around about nothing. She is supposed to cut that back or at least work on it. She did not realize how often she spoke with him (or claimed not to) until we pulled up her FB and texts last night. Granted it was not every day, and 99% of it was all junk about football but it was often enough, and during the times that I felt she should be focused on trying to just hand out and be relaxed around here.

The other guy, like I said, is a done deal. Maybe he mans up and calls me today, maybe he doesn't. She sees my side in that argument finally. Once I speak to him it will be a dead issue.

She did make a valid point that at the same time that I am fighting her about her guy friend, she feels like I have replaced her with a few female friends that I talk to. I had not looked at any of it from her perspective but maybe my talking to my two good female friends whenever my wife refuses to speak to me makes her just as upset. I know that one of the two does, she is attractive, in a bad marriage, and we have known each other for 30 years. 

I think that I may keep the odds even and leave that friend alone for a while as well just in case it is adding to the insecurity.

And her truth is, which I totally believe, that I did not show enough interest in her and my family over the last few years to make her feel like they mattered. She felt like I checked out about two years ago and she felt like she was fighting to reel me back in until about three months ago. Just after the fight three months ago all of the texting with friends and chatting on FB started as she was trying to fill the void that would be left with me gone. In her mind, I was already gone and she was just helping me cut the cord. She also feels like I will revert back to that guy, another valid worry, and she will feel like I broke her heart again.


She does not realize how much damage putting those friends above me has done, nor did she care about my feelings. I never thought about what damage I may have caused with my friends to her either.

Blah Blah - time to go make the doughnuts.


----------



## Kolors

And maybe I am trying to be too objective and see her side of everything before I judge. Our MC told us to try our best to look at the other persons point of view before we speak about anything.

Basically, we have done the same thing to each other right now. If she had a thread on here I bet it would mention these two women that I am talking to all day and night. I am essentially doing exactly what I am pissed at her for doing.


----------



## LongWalk

I don't think a new thread is necessary. This can be moved to CWI.
But most importantly you should feel comfortable here because now you have gotten to know some people. You have team Kulors. Between HappyMan, Chaparral and Sammy, you have some expertise. They don't expect any reward. It is a priviledge to be able communicate with others. That rewards in and of itself.

Laugh at the irony of it all. Like millions you've gone through hard times economically. Job losses and insecurity have mowed down tens of thousands of marriages. Thousands signed up as reservists because soldiering paid a wage. Little did they know they would be paid to be away from their families so long that 3 or 4 out of 100 service (wo)men divorce each year. That may not sound so bad, but usually they serve two to four years or even longer. So each year they shoot craps again with the same general odds.

And when they get out of the military, what then? Of course, a lot of the divorces happen when the reality of the destroyed family becomes a daily grind.

Your wife is angry with you because you don't have enough money for divorce. Paradoxically having enough money for divorce would raise your image as a husband. Legally, you are in a position to get child support or alimony from her. You would not go after for it because you would find that unmanly. You take your marriage obligations so seriously that you desire to support your wife and children is based on your values, not the law.

When you examined your split up from an economic point of view you discovered that as separate households you were insolvent. She did not realize this. After you divorce what does she think is going to rescue her economically? All of her feminine instincts must be to find a man. The other men with whom she is currently having emotional relationships with appear married. So if she hooks up with them her economic problems will not be solved.

Right now you are searching for a better paying job. You are wondering if getting one is going to save your marriage. I think your ability to hunt for a job, etc. is hurt by your wife's refusal to support you emotionally. You have to worry about her chatting with OM, ruining Thanksgiving, etc., instead of giving you a hug and helping you get in a good mindset for the job interviews, etc. If she would make love to you, imagine how energized you would be?

I think that if you examine your marriage both of you can say that at this point or that the other was not being a good team player. However, right now when you most need her she is not committed.

If you have some spare time for TAM reading, you should check out LostLove77's thread. You are somewhere in between him and Bagdon.


----------



## Kolors

Will do. And I totally feel like if she would budge a little bit and give a little support then things would work out just fine. He has tried, she helped me write papers this weekend and fake interviewed me last night but it is minimal at best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kolors

And, I really don't think a new job will save us. I also agree that if I still had my old job she should have been out already. I need a new job for me so I can have something outside the house to focus on. I create a career path whn I start a job and aim to move up. I don't have that for the first time since I got out if high school! Once I get something to focus on outside the house I think it will help me inside the house.

Yea and good money may just get me papers lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kolors

Well I passed the phone interview. The guy that interviewed me was the director for my state for the company. We seem to hit it off really well and he liked my background because it would allow me to manage multiple locations as they opened in my area. It is in the healthcare management field but he said it's like any other business, you get the job then learn it all as you get time. He had never been in healthcare before he started with them a few years ago.

Anyway, he is going to come up in the next week or so for a meeting with me and the local manager for a face to face about the job. I am excited! I think it would be great to enter a totally new field. From what I have seen, healthcare just keeps getting bigger each day.

Time to get the kiddos.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> Well I passed the phone interview. The guy that interviewed me was the director for my state for the company. We seem to hit it off really well and he liked my background because it would allow me to manage multiple locations as they opened in my area. It is in the healthcare management field but he said it's like any other business, you get the job then learn it all as you get time. He had never been in healthcare before he started with them a few years ago.
> 
> Anyway, he is going to come up in the next week or so for a meeting with me and the local manager for a face to face about the job. I am excited! I think it would be great to enter a totally new field. From what I have seen, healthcare just keeps getting bigger each day.
> 
> Time to get the kiddos.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Great Job Young Man

Stay positive and confident


----------



## Kolors

just got it 55 said:


> Stay positive and confident


Easier said than done sir. I do miss the days of no worry and no random sadness. 

Either way, going to light up the fireplace and chill with the kids tonight. There are marshmallows to be roasted.


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> Easier said than done sir. I do miss the days of no worry and no random sadness.
> 
> Either way, going to light up the fireplace and chill with the kids tonight. There are marshmallows to be roasted.


Thats your primary job

Love those children


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## LongWalk

You are doing a good job. By facing reality you are indirectly forcing your wife to do the same. I can strongly identifiy character traits of myself in you: the desire to like people and enjoy getting along with them, albeit without always calculating the hard facts.

You had a troubled relationship with your father. So did I. Your father mixed you up in his business, which was not in your interest, so did mine. They may not have understood what they were doing, but the consequences fell upon you and your family.

Your wife may have some legitimate gripes. But at the moment she is only thinking about herself. She sees your love as something pathetic. She doesn't want you and yet you want on. To sit and flirt with OM in front of you is contemptuous and cruel. For you to have to reason with her about this demeaning. That is why action is more important than words. Unfortunately, you don't have many options except restraint and divorce.

Not a good father... okay many of us could do more. But come one you were never a bad father. You are close to your children. She cannot to eat a Thanksgiving dinner, for her children's sake. She is not making a 100% effort either.

The only thing that might move her at this point is if you are able to boldly stride forward without her to a new life. She may, because she is dependent, chase after you, but there is still something deeply wrong with your relationship. You are not getting initimacy and affection. To me a sexless marriage would be a deal killer. 

She has EA's and they are costing your marriage.

Does the OM who wanted to eat lunch with her tell his wife that he is after yours? Have you spoken with her about what is going on?


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## Kolors

She actually left him a little while ago and moved back here. The guy and his wife have a rocky sort of relationship where they split every year or two and get back together. They have done it for 10 years. He is out of the picture as far as I can tell. She cut him off, she has not been sending him texts or calling him, it was like 20 days since they spoke last with the exception of her telling him to spend all his time in town with his kids next time he comes. She flat out told him that they could no longer hang out because of our relationship and what his texts did.


I really do not think the guy she used to work with knows how she has latched on to him. They have been friends on again and off again for 5ish years. They are close because it is was just the two of them each morning working for a few hours so they talked and BSed around while getting the place ready. She has latched on to him as one of her very few friends. He still has tons of friends and goes out each night to have fun with them. I looked at her messaging (she hasn't deleted any history, only a few texts here and there and none from this guy) and pretty much everything that they message back and forth is stuff about Football and gossip about people she used to work with. None of it is emotional stuff or relationship stuff. I sat right there and looked at her facebook and nothing there was screaming "blossoming relationship". It is just the frequency of conversation at the time of night where we typically sit and hang out. I also noticed that there will be periods of 5 or 6 days with no contact at all, no phone calls, no texts, no IMs. 

I see the second guy is an emotional affair because he is getting something from my wife that I want. I do not believe that he is aware of it, I think he views her on the same level as he does the many many other friends that he has (and yes, he has tons of female friends, I thought he was gay for the longest.) 

Like I may have said before, I am sort of doing the same thing with a few female friends but she has not asked me to stop.


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## LongWalk

The first guy was trying to hit on your wife. The second guy is her buddy.

There are plenty of people in sound relationships who have all sorts of Facebook friends. What sort of friend represents a threat? OM 1 sounds like a person with troubles. Not good that you wife is attracted to him at any level.


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## Kolors

I agree, guy #1 was a threat. If he wasn't trying to stick my wife then he would have called me and apologized for the misunderstanding. If I say something off color to another mans wife, I apologize to him and her both. I really was surprised that my wife told him that they could not be alone anymore.

Guy #2 is her buddy correct. It is still uncomfortable as hell to me and I do not want to end their friendship. Truth is, whether we split or stick, they will remain friends. I see him as a threat but not a threat that turns into a physical affair, she just talks to him instead of me because our talks turn into sh!t half the time.


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## Kolors

And yes, quitting her old job with friend #2 combined with my inability to be a friend to her made them closer friends.


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## just got it 55

LongWalk said:


> The first guy was trying to hit on your wife. The second guy is her buddy.
> 
> There are plenty of people in sound relationships who have all sorts of Facebook friends. What sort of friend represents a threat? OM 1 sounds like a person with troubles. Not good that you wife is attracted to him at any level.


:iagree:


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## JohnC_depressed

"#3 Last night. She told me last night that she wakes up every few days and things that she should just go ahead and give me another chance but then I do something 24 hours later and she changes her mind. "

You are damned if you do and damned if you don't. It seems unfair because you are really trying. Its really time to just let her go. The harder you seem to work at things, the more she seems to use that against you and make BS excuses like #3. F' her.


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## Kolors

Yea it's a damned either way sort of thing. I'd like to be badass enough to just say f it but she hung in there for quite a while waiting on me to check back in with her. I am going the route of minimal "us" discussion, maximum focus on the family, and counseling for us both. I can't wait to see what IC does for her and of it will help her unload some of her baggage.

Today has been normal again. We all hung out and played in the bed for a bit, I made breakfast, and we all sat around and watched parades. I'm leaving with the kids in an hour to go see my family for a bit then coming back home to start Xmas decorating. As far as I know she is still staying here. I have food to make a small thanksgiving when we get home for her. Tomorrow we both have off all day with the kids and no plans at all. 

As usual, i just need to keep my mouth shut, focus on me, and live life.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone. Enjoy what you have, there are plenty out there with less.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Kulors,

You are getting it. Erasing all the past mistakes and patterns is impossible. Making new ones is. Whether she is onboard is up to her. You cannot force her to buy a ticket.

Roughly summarized: Your wife was attracted to you because you were light-hearted and self confident. Your earning power was not in question at the time. You tried different career moves that did not work out. It changed you. You were not happy. Your wife, feeling unhappy and insecure cut off the nookie to punish you. You accepted this. The distance grew. You thought having children, a home, etc, would keep your marriage alive until times got better.

She lost attraction for you. In all fairness she did try to discuss it. But not coming down the stretch after you are both awake, she is sending mixed messages all the time. 

You now know that chasing her is a fool's errand. Go forwards as if you were ready to accept being a single dad who will not sink into depression or drink. You are going to get in shape and if she goes foward to dump you, you will surprize her. She will reach out to squeeze your hand goodbye for reassurance, just to make sure you will always be there, her pal without benefits. You will not squeeze but wave and wink farewell. 

For sure there is some kind of dying love for you in her heart, but it will not catch fire easily. You can only do what you can do.


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## Kolors

She keeps throwing me off with the "tell me why I should give you another chance?" Line when we get into it. I haven't really been able to answer it. I wish i had a strong answer to give her but I just don't. I tell her each time that it is a loaded question and any answer that I give will just sound selfish and give her more to tell me that i am wrong about. I'd give up all my stuff to know the right answer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Troubledtimes

Part of the 180 is to respond to situations like you have never done before. Remember you can't appease her rationally, because she can think of many reasons why your answer is wrong. Why don't you say something like "I cannot tell you what you should or should not do"


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## Kolors

Yep what you said. I tend to just tell her it's a trick question that only she can answer. All I can do is lay low and hope therapy and repetition of good habits at least put off the moving out for a while.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

So yea, pretty good day was had. I am learning that she has some issues that lead to her getting really frustrated really fast. There really is no reason that it is just me. I hope her counselor refers her to a doc that will get her on something for it. I used to write it off as her just being tired or frustrated with this or that but looking back at it she has been this way for several years.

I never mentioned Thanksgiving to her today. She got the kids dressed for me about an hour too early, I think she wanted to sleep while we were out so she was kinda hurrying us out of the door. About 20 mins before we were supposed to leave she turned off the lights in the den, gave our son a bottle, and snuggled up with him on the couch for a nap. I nudged her when it was time to go and asked if she just wanted to keep him and they could sleep. She mumbled something so me and the daughter slipped out the back door with my amazing Banana and Black Walnut Bread Pudding with Vanilla and Dark Rum Sauce (Sometimes its fun to be a pastry chef). 

We were home less than 2 hours later and she was already on the way to being frustrated. I asked once what was going on and she said the baby had been screaming for three house and it was just wearing her out since she had only slept 4 hours. She set him up with some lunch and started cleaning house. I jumped in and we got it all pretty much straight in 20 mins or so.

Here are my observations of the rest of the day - 

#1 If I sat with the kids she made a comment about how she was getting the whole house clean, if I cleaned house she started to cry. This is more of the whole "If you can get up and do it now, why couldn't you do it before?" I never spoke to her with anything but positive comments and a sure tone of voice.

#2 After we were finished I sat at the table with the kids and discussed doing some crafty stuff with the daughter and trying to include the 18 month old. She was noticeably upset by this. She didn't even bother going away to be upset, she stood off in our laundry room and cried, quietly but still audibly. The happier me and the kids were the more it tore her up. Once again, the same reason as above for the tears.

#3 Once we came up with a list of stuff we needed, we are making paper mache snow men, she proceeded to go sit in the bedroom and slowly get dressed while still crying. I stayed firm and refused to baited into asking why she was upset. I also did not ask her to come with us, she just assumed that I was going to ask I guess. Don't get me wrong, I am happy she did because we ended up having fun. She remained visually sad until we pulled out of the driveway and I turned on Christmas music for me and the kids to sing along to. 

#4 She was a little upset still as we entered the first store on our trip but cheered up after we shopped for 20 mins or so. Once she lightened up and started to have fun with all of us it became just like the old days. We were joking with the kids and each other. We picked out the remainder of the kids Christmas gifts, and really did it cheap this year, then headed out to get some more odds and ends.

#5 We rode around a bit looking for an open restaurant and I detoured through the historic home part of our town. As we drove by one house she told me that it was about to be for sale and that we could more than likely afford it but the kids would be in a different school zone than we wanted. I ignored the comment since I didn't know if it was a mistake, or some sort of bait to see where I went with it. I only replied that I always wanted to live in this area since the community is really strong.

#6 I cooked Thanksgiving for her once we made it home. She sat down and bought all the presents online and used some sort of bonus money that my old job deposited into our old joint account today. We then proceeded to hang out with the kids on the couches and watch Xmas shows until everyones bedtime. It was tons of fun and we all laughed and enjoyed being a family. I hated to see it end when we put the kids in bed. Once they were asleep she changed clothes, I took the hint and told her goodnight and headed back to the bedroom to kill my beer and watch some TV.



When we first got home I asked her if she wanted to see if her female friend wanted to get up with her and do some shopping when the stores opened at 8. She texted her, convinced that she could get her out, and was shot down. I was proud of myself in trying to force her to get some "space". She seemed surprised that I did it. She seemed surprised that her friend decided to stay home and do school work instead of go out, and was shot down for hanging out and watching football this Saturday as well.


I do see that not talking about anything works. I think that she really does want me to ask her questions that lead to me looking like a jerkoff in the end. I really wanted to ask her what was up each time she started tearing up today but I know better now. She has to deal with that stuff, I can't.

I also see that seeing my changes and the family flourishing tears her up. I know she never expected me to just man up and commit. Now that I am staying on top of me and the family it is killing her to watch. I feel like it is filling her with doubt but there is no way she will mention that out loud.

I also made plans for the family for the rest of the weekend, a thing where they light 200 Christmas trees Friday night and a trip on Sunday to do some Christmas window shopping. I never asked if she wanted to go, I just said it was what was going on like I did before all this junk between us started. If she chooses to come with, that is great, if not me and the kids will have plenty of fun on our own. 

We both work pretty much all day and night on Saturday so it will be a good break for us.

Also, no texting and Messaging tonight once we all hit the couch. She pretty much stayed involved with us all night.

So yea, stay the course and ride the waves.


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## happyman64

> So yea, stay the course and ride the waves.


Exactly.

Shutup.

Soldier on.

Do you know notice when you do not engage her that the waves stay smaller and are less frequent.

Kolors 2.0 is in control.

Stay that way.

Let your wife see the new you. When she gets herself upset let her deal with herself.

Only she can fix herself.

HM


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## happyman64

> So yea, stay the course and ride the waves.


Exactly.

Shutup.

Soldier on.

Do you know notice when you do not engage her that the waves stay smaller and are less frequent.

Kolors 2.0 is in control.

Stay that way.

Let your wife see the new you. When she gets herself upset let her deal with herself.

Only she can fix herself.

HM


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## Kolors

Yea, it is just strange watching someone fight themselves. It's really like a cartoon where one person is trapped inside another and trying to push their way out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

happyman64 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Shutup.
> 
> Soldier on.
> 
> Do you know notice when you do not engage her that the waves stay smaller and are less frequent.
> 
> Kolors 2.0 is in control.
> 
> Stay that way.
> 
> Let your wife see the new you. When she gets herself upset let her deal with herself.
> 
> Only she can fix herself.
> 
> HM


Yes HM that was worth posting twice

Kolors: Wow what a great post of your observations
If this is a clear view of what is happening then I am less likely to feel "outside influences" are at play here.

As I stated in previous a post your wife has more issues than you And you are exactly correct ,they are hers to fix.

I suspect you feel moch more in control of your destiny and you are suprising yourself of how truly strong you are.

Where are you gaining that strenght from?


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## LongWalk

Very good. Clearly once she sees that you have inner calm and can survive without her, you become more desirable. But do not make her abstract promises or engage in relationship discussion. Just keep on showing restraint and leaderhip in action.

Who knows she may initiate sex before Christmas. The key, though, is to keep nuturing this stronger person. Avoiding the house discussion was smart. For Bagdon the house dream was central in his wife's unhappiness.


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## Kolors

The roller coaster continues!


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## Kolors

I made a post a few hours ago but it appears to have disappeared.

This morning erupted! I have no idea why things escalate so fast around her.

It started simple, she woke up before me and grabbed the baby who was crying. I heard them get up and just laid in bed for a few minutes. A few minutes later he was still crying and she made a comment about how she couldn't deal with him crying for three hours again this morning. I hopped up to go help out and get him just as she rounded the corner with a bottle. I picked him up and took him back to bed so she could relax and not deal with the baby. Thought I did good!

About 45 mins later I got up to make breakfast for everyone and to get the Christmas decorations out like she had asked me to do last night. Everyone seemed content. I made food, put it all out on the table, and called everyone in. We all ate and talked about going to buy a fresh tree today, still good. Then everything went horribly wrong.

I said something about the tree lighting that we were going to go to tonight and she said that she didn't want to go. I told her that was ok, if she didn't want to go with the rest of the family she could stay home. It was almost immediate, she slapped the table and started yelling at me about how everything always has to be on my time and how I am just controlling and trying to force her into doing things she doesn't want to do. I told her it was fine, me and the kids would go and be back in a few hours. She continued on into how it will be cold and she doesn't want them to go get sick and it will just be miserable out and no fun. Then she stormed off to the back of the house still yelling about something and that she was just going to pack her bags and leave.

I sat there at the table in total disbelief about how things went from cool to uncool so fast. I walked back to the bedroom to see if she was packing and she proceeded to tell me another dozen things that were wrong with me. I ignored it and tried to stay on the issue but it didn't work. She told me that no matter what she is just staying miserable and needs to just get out. I told her to just stay and if it was that bad I would go check into another hotel until my tenant gets out. She just would not calm down. 

I explained to her that I was doing everything that I could around here to keep the peace, I stopped talking about us, I stopped talking about the future, and I am staying on focus about having a better life but it just keeps derailing each time she loses it over something small like today. She proceeded to tell me that she spent most of yesterday thinking about checking into a hotel, taking a bunch of pills, and just killing herself so she would not have to deal with any of this anymore.

She kept on about how this new me was not real, how I still said things that hurt her feelings, and how she was just going to leave now and come back years later to tell the kids the truth about who I really am. At one point she got right up in my face and started screaming for me to get out of the house but I stood my ground. I did tell her that she should watch it right there, she was about to cross a line that she would regret if she got physical with me. Instead she just beat the hell out of a picture in the bedroom and just kept screaming for me to go. I was running late for work so I had to leave. Her plan was to pack while I was gone and leave when I returned.

I went to my part time job and they all agreed that nothing was going to happen today so I was sent home 30 mins later. I sent her a text to not leave with the kids, I would be home soon. On the way home I called one of the suicide hotlines to ask them what I should do, I really felt like she would leave today and be dead tomorrow. They suggested talking to her and getting her to go to the doctor today to get evaluated.

When I got home she was trying to leave with the kids to go get icecream. I pulled her aside and tried to see just how serious her hurting herself was. She told me that she had no plans on hurting herself, she still had two kids to raise when I fell apart and decided to stop caring again in a few months. She said that she only wants to be left alone to see if she can remember what I bring to the table and if she can miss me again. I told her that I am trying my best given our financial situation and I would lean on the tenant to get out so I can go ASAP. I also told her that the me that she is seeing and being so upset with it the real me now, whether she likes it or not. That will be the man who leaves and the man I hope she misses. If she would just calm the hell down for a bit and not provoke fights then she could understand. There is no way she will miss the me that she keeps turning me into, she will miss the me that I am becoming. I told her that I hoped that we could be adults about this and make it to Christmas but I could not live having good day then bad day over and over for the next month.

Anyway, she agreed that it was a bad feeling but not something she intended on acting on. She also said they were going to run and get icecream and be back later, I still don't know why I agreed. 

She did ask me who I called about her threat and I told her it was an anonymous 800 number and they told me to try to talk her into going to the doctor today. They had no idea who I was or who she was, but they said that she needs some sort of help and maybe some medication to help her calm down for a while. 

She then informed me that she went ahead and started taking the Zoloft that our Dr. prescribed her six months ago. I think the situation today scared her as well. 

Shes on the way home now, lets see how this works out


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## Tobyboy

Bi-polar much? The next time she makes a suicide threat call 911. Your W needs help....seriously!! 
Is she drinking and taking meds at the same time?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Kulors,

You did as well as you could given the circumstances. Previously when I wrote about "revulsion" you were a little put off. However, this disquiet goes beyond you. It is not unfair to say that she does not like herself much either.

I don't think you should debate her about the "new you". Such a discussion just goes in circles.

The threat of suicide is not because you are a controlling jerk. She wants a different life and does not know how to get it. Getting rid of you is simply a means that she has cooked up, but your disappearance alone will not make her happy.


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## just got it 55

Kolors you are not equipped to handle irrational people. This is going to escalate as Christmas draws nearer.

She is seriously ill and has identified you as the source of her pain and unhappiness.

LW is exactly correct do not enter into conversations about the “new man” you are .Your progressions on the front are not rationally conceived to her.

You are in a can’t win situation. As you have said “no matter what I do I am wrong”

Roller Coaster indeed.

Please seek help


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## Kolors

Well her IC is almost two weeks away but he started her Zoloft today so maybe it will kick in faster than normal. She took off her rings while I was away and got super pissed that I went and put them in my pocket. Who knows anymore. I'm in it till Xmas.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

I gave her the option of going out to get a Christmas tree or checking into a hotel. We just picked up a beautiful black hills spruce. I hope this thread is useful to someone in the future as an example of a WTF dysfunctional marriage. 

Did I ever mention that I hate roller coasters ? Heights just bother the hell out of me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> I gave her the option of going out to get a Christmas tree or checking into a hotel. We just picked up a beautiful black hills spruce. I hope this thread is useful to someone in the future as an example of a WTF dysfunctional marriage.
> 
> Did I ever mention that I hate roller coasters ? Heights just bother the hell out of me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's not the fall from the height,....It's the sudden stop when you hit the ground.

Keep on an even keal my young brother.

55


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## LongWalk

Why did she take off her rings? To provoke you. So you took the bait and put them in your pocket. You should have just left them be and ignored her. You cannot force her to remain married to you.

Suppose you are some how responsible for her depressed state. Being in an unhappy marriage can cause person to change. But discussion will not improve things at this point. She wants these conflicts over blame to decide whether you get a second chance. And the trial never ends.

Hope that you get off the roller coaster soon.


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## Kolors

She flipped out when I took them. I gave them back after she started looking like she wanted a fist fight. She has since put them back in the jewelry box in our bedroom. Yep it provokes me. It actually bothers me bad enough to not want to be in the same room as her. It's stupid for something so trivial to get me so worked up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lenzi

She knows how to push your buttons.

Better than anyone else on the face of this planet.

Learn to be less predictable.


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## Kolors

Yea she totally does and it sucks!

I had a pretty good grip on it all until we got home and started decorating the tree. Just seeing her not wearing those rings was enough to give me a bit of a panic attack. I tried to just go in the other room and cool off but she came in and saw me the first time so I came back out after a minute. A bit later I lost my cool while in the garage alone pulling down boxes and came in to sit down. She saw me and came and took my pulse and blood pressure. I didn't want to fess up to the anxiety so she thought it was a heart attack and kept questioning me. Finally I went and laid down alone and just tried to calm down but she kept sending our daughter back to check on me and then came in a few times asking tons of questions.

After she put the kids in bed she came back again and started with the questions so I just told her the truth. I had some sort of anxiety attack, I got to thinking about how today was totally shot by 10AM and then it escalated to the point where you wanted to fight me physically and then you put your rings up. I just was not mentally prepared for that today. I had put a lot into having a good weekend with the family and it all blew up before I could stop it, so yes, my anxiety kicked into overdrive and here we are.

I am sure I babbled on a bit more as I calmed down and when I finally looked over at her she was crying as well. A bit later she left the room and I had myself a good old fashioned come apart once I was finally alone for 10 minutes. It felt good, I have been holding on to a lot of junk for the last month and it needed to get out.

After I cooled off, I went back to the room where we had put the tree up and we hung out a while and watched some TV. Like the previous night, no texting, no messaging, just us hanging out. I pushed the issue and sat down behind her and wrapped my arms around her and pulled her back to me. I told her that I should have done this a year ago when she started just playing on FB at night and I started working on a new hobby and she agreed. After a few minutes I let her go and just sat and talked a little while.

I talked to her a little about what I had read about the Zoloft and that it may take a while to kick in but it should help her with the rage issues that she has currently. She said she is just looking for something to take the edge off when she is around me so she doesn't feel like yelling or fighting with me constantly. She also showed me her hand where she had bruised the hell out of it punching the wall and beating on a table today, seriously she flips a switch and Hulks out now. I told her that I read up on the side effects to look for since she did no research about it and gave her a list of stuff to look out for and to let me know as soon as she notices any of it. I really hope she is one of the few that feels some relief after a week or so and not six weeks or so.

Anyhow, before I left the room for the night I asked her if she wanted to just come on to bed, get a good nights sleep, and cuddle up with the kids in the morning. I told her that I wouldn't kick her out of the bed or sleep on top of her, I just missed her being where she was supposed to be. I knew the response that I would get before I asked but I just wanted to push her issues like she has mine. I didn't really look over at her but I saw her silently crying out of the corner of my eye for the next 10 mins or so. Finally I got up, admired the tree for a minute, talked about some of the old ornaments, and left the room to fix a broken decoration. A few mins later she went back to our room and got dressed for bed, came in the living room, and laid out her stuff on the couch for sleep. Like I said, I knew it was coming but it felt good to let something out instead of just being hard all night. I sat back down for a few minutes and finished a sandwich then told her g'nite and off I went.

Who knows what lies in wait for me tomorrow. I usually lie to myself at night and say that some progress was made but I can't do that this evening. We are both home until 1PM tomorrow then I have to go in until 9 or 10. She goes in at 8PM and gets off at 2AM.

I had things planned for Sunday after church but I really do not know if I have it in me to go on with it. I sort of want to grab my laptop and find somewhere quiet to just work for 8 hours. No wife, no kids, just me getting some stuff done.


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## LongWalk

Eight hours is a long time to leave her alone with the kids.


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## Kolors

I don't think she would go nutty on the kids. If things got rough she would take them to someone or call me. Aside from the recent events with her rage she has always been in ideal parent. She is just wound so tight currently that it takes very little to set off. 

She woke up last night at 1am and fell back out at 5 or 6. I read that's one if the Zoloft side effects. I hope the potential benefits outweigh the side effects. I feel like her having the edge off will help tons.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Dependence on pharmaceuticals is of course always debated. 

How much do you think your wife had deeper problems before you?

I am sure that I did not make my ex a better person. Today I feel guilty about it. You also seem to feel this way, but it is hard to know. In any case you are where you are now. 

She is sure you are the problem. But which came first the chicken or egg.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Kolors

I know she had problems before me, many that she still doesn't discuss. She had also always been a runner. When things got bad in past relationships or with old friends she just cut them off and ran away. That is what she tried here but there are family ties and financial obligations that make it impossible. If it weren't for the kids we wouldn't be here doing this but neither of us want to be the one to crap it up form them.

I know I'm the focus and when I take the focus off me by being happy and being myself she struggles to put it all back on me. When I ignore it she tends to break down for a little while then fall in line. When I get drug into it she pushes me until she can find a reason to say she is leaving. If she doesn't leave, which is most every time, she tells me that she only wanted to leave for a few hours but I wouldn't let her go. If I let her leave she tells me she has no idea if it when she plans to return. I need to just let her go from now on.

I did offer to out her up for a week at an extended stay but she refused to go since she couldn't be away from the kids for that long. What does she expect to happen when we split and have to share custody every other week? My cell doesn't really work well at my other house so there may be nights where we can't call. 

This morning she is laying in the bed with me and the kids playing. No idea why, but i do miss it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sammy3

Kolors, 

I know only too well how it feels to lash out because oneself is hurting so badly. In a twisted way, she can't hurt you, so she's lashing out at anything and everything there is around her, because it's she, that is in so much pain. 

I hope the med's do kick in fast, as at least the emotions may start to stabilize, for her, as well as you. She in a bad, bad place within herself. It's not you. 

~ sammy


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## Kolors

I know it cannot be all me. She continues to put it all on me and I know it is because I am the closest thing. Even when she recalls the things that she has been upset over for the last several years she finds a way to put it on me. I have learned here that I cannot argue against her perception. If she thinks its my fault that her life has fallen apart then it is. 

One of the things she continued to argue yesterday is that I keep talking about our relationship. I told her that I am still sticking to my agreement to not speak about it with the exception of our counseling night. She is supposed to stop doing things to provoke me and I am supposed to stop questioning her perceptions of things. 

I left her a note last night after she went to sleep. I won't really get into what was in it but it had nothing to do with any of the stuff between us, no promises of anything, or any plans for the future. It was just friendly and welcoming like the notes I left her all the time when we first met. I can only assume that is why she came to the bedroom this morning and hung out and played with us again. Today we all laid in bed for hours being silly but I could see that she had a lot on her mind. 

I finally got up and made some scratch biscuits and jelly for everyone and we had a normal Saturday morning breakfast. As usual, she was a bit reserved at first but slowly warmed up as we ate. After breakfast my daughter and I started on a paper mache snowman project and she came in and joined us in the project a little while later. This time she was much nicer, talking about the big games today. 

We later sat down to watch my game (Go Gators!) while I worked on a paper that someone commissioned me to write. We all settled like we typically do on game day and it was quite relaxing. The lack of sleep and warm room finally caught up with her and she asked if I would get the baby to take a nap so she could take one as well before I headed in to work today. 

So, here I am. Laptop in my lap, baby shoved in beside be sleeping, daughter snuggled up with the wife and watching netflix on my Kindel and the wife getting her nap in. This was my life four months ago and for 12 years before and it is a good one.

She also took the Zoloft this morning for the 2nd day. She made comments about not taking it again last night but I think she is realizing that maybe life would be better for everyone if she just took it down a notch with the crying and rage.

Anyhow, time to get the chef coat ironed and get ready to stand bored for 8 hours as we have 4 people on reservations tonight and it is historically dead here when Alabama plays Auburn (Go Tigers). I plan to make some lunch at the club, belly up to the bar, and watch the game myself.

Hope everyone enjoys their football rivalry day (Except Alabama Fans, I hope their day sucks.)


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## LongWalk

Read your last post while walking out of a big hospital where an old friend is facing liver failure for the third time. The first time he got a transplant I got his job. The second donor was his own son.

Hepatitis has gotten his third liver. Now he looking forward to a fourth liver or death.

Michigan plays Ohio State today. Don't think our chances are good.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Kolors

I hate to hear about your friend. I think we all fight to prolong the inevitable and just hope for miracles along the way. I'll pray he finds his tonight.

Michigan looked like they were going to hang for a while there but Ohio is a beast. I really wanted to see Ohio vs Bama for the BCS this year.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> I know she had problems before me, many that she still doesn't discuss. She had also always been a runner. When things got bad in past relationships or with old friends she just cut them off and ran away. That is what she tried here but there are family ties and financial obligations that make it impossible. If it weren't for the kids we wouldn't be here doing this but neither of us want to be the one to crap it up form them.
> 
> I know I'm the focus and when I take the focus off me by being happy and being myself she struggles to put it all back on me. When I ignore it she tends to break down for a little while then fall in line. When I get drug into it she pushes me until she can find a reason to say she is leaving. If she doesn't leave, which is most every time, she tells me that she only wanted to leave for a few hours but I wouldn't let her go. *If I let her leave she tells me she has no idea if it when she plans to return. I need to just let her go from now on.*
> I did offer to out her up for a week at an extended stay but she refused to go since she couldn't be away from the kids for that long. What does she expect to happen when we split and have to share custody every other week? My cell doesn't really work well at my other house so there may be nights where we can't call.
> 
> This morning she is laying in the bed with me and the kids playing. No idea why, but i do miss it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes Let her go to find out that you are not the issue
Is there a safe way to do that with family support ?


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## Kolors

Unfortunately not. Her inly family here is her mom and she will not stay there. I should have my other house soon enough and I'll furnish it and turn on cable so when she wants to run she can run there and be away from me and the kids. 

The issue has been when she leaves she gets blackout drunk and doesn't think about anything, when I leave i go it alone and work on my issues.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tobyboy

I'll ask again......does she have a drinking problem?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

No, she may have a beer once a month, if that often, at home. When we go out she may have three beers but refuses liquor. When she is pissed at me as goes out she will drink maybe 5 or so beers but she will do it fast and end up drunk. The last time she left, which was over a month ago, she sat at a female friends house an killed a bottle of wine in no time, fell over drunk, and passed out asleep shortly thereafter.

There is still beer in the fridge that we purchased in January, several bottles of great wine in the house, and plenty of liquor. None of which have been drunk during any of this drama. Neither of us do drugs either. I used to smoke pot but I stopped that 7 or so years ago.

So no she doesn't have a drinking problem. She has a problem with being out going and will have 2-3 in a few ours of hanging out with friends. She has a low tolerance so it leads to being drunk on what most of us would have at dinner with friends and still be sober.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tobyboy

Kolors said:


> So no she doesn't have a drinking problem. She has a problem with being out going and will have 2-3 in a few ours of hanging out with friends. She has a low tolerance so it leads to being drunk on what most of us would have at dinner with friends and still be sober.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When she does drink...how often does she get drunk?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Only when she is out pissed off really. Drunk is relative as well, she's a three beer drunk.
So maybe three times a year. Falling down blacked out drunk? Maybe three times in the last 8 years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tobyboy

Your right....drunk is relative. I'm a lightweight, four beers and I'm done. Thing is, I know my limit. With your wife's LT to alcohol, mixed with antidepressant....it could result in bad situations if she drinks....even a little! I'm sure your aware of this....make sure your wife is too!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Yea I plan to talk to her about it now that she is taking them. I don't want to scare her off of them though. From what I hear you shouldn't even think of alcohol until you have a good idea of how the meds affect you. Then still cut it out at a drink or two.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Kolors said:


> Yea I plan to talk to her about it now that she is taking them. I don't want to scare her off of them though. From what I hear you shouldn't even think of alcohol until you have a good idea of how the meds affect you. Then still cut it out at a drink or two.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





> If I let her leave she tells me she has no idea if it when she plans to return. I need to just let her go from now on.


To what degree can you protect her from herself without being accused of being controlling? I am not sure I know the answer to this when it comes to her medication. However, if you separate, she must manage her own alcohol consumption in any event.

The portrait of your wife is shifting now from an unhappily married woman to an individual who has deep-seated issues. Suicide threats are not a sign of good mental health. Do you wish to be married to her if she remains clinically depressed?


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## Kolors

That is a hard question. She has accused me several times of being controlling. A lot of the things she saw as controlling I saw as me making decisions because she was very indecisive. It is really bad now because she feels like she is in control of herself for the first time in years. Hence the sleeping in the other room, the taking off her rings, her deciding when conversations end by spazzing ou to make me leave the room. When we argue she calls me controlling because I do not just allow her to make false assumptions or accusations about me and my motives and feelings. I stand up to her, I am controlling. Sigh.

Back to the start, I do believe that if she starts to feel the edge come off then she will continue the meds and manage them once I am out. She thinks she is going to turn into some sort of Stepford wife by taking these meds. I have fed her all the things to watch for and kept the talk to a minimum as to avoid scaring her or so she doesn't feel like I am pushing her in either direction. I do not want to talk to her about the alcohol interaction because she may see it as some sort of ploy to prevent her from hanging out with her friends. I also don't want her to get a week into treatment and stop because she feels like the occasional beer is more important. It's really an impossible decision to make. I'd have a friend tell her but i know she is keeping it under wraps and if anyone talks to her she will know that I mentioned it.

As for do I wish to stay with her if she remains depressed? Well, she stuck with me for the longest and I do believe that marriage is forever with the exceptions of physical abuse or something really extreme. If she starts to come out of it or starts to fall apart I would still be willing to help pick up the pieces.

I still love this woman, more so now that I did six months ago. She is the mother of my children and the person I committed to forever. I will be beside her as long as I live or until she forces me away. She did the same until she felt that I had forced her to quit me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

And yes, it took medication and therapy for me to become a whole person again. I hope it works as well for her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

Kolors: Your guilt and your own "issues" led you to believe that everything was your fault in the beginning.

I think a few of us have concluded that your wife has more issues than you for a while now.

In fact she has very serious issues.

I think you are cognizant of that as well. It’s going to help you knowing you are not at the epicenter of the conflict within your wife’s unhappiness / mind.

Hopefully you can gain some clarity from this knowledge to enhance your ability to function. 

To enable you to take positive steps to navigate through this mine field that is your marriage.

Stay positive.

55


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## Kolors

Thanks. It is funny that we both think that we are the same one in all of this. I am sure her friends think that I am nuts as well. Truth is, neither of us are healthy alone but we have propped each other up for a really long time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> That is a hard question. She has accused me several times of being controlling. A lot of the things she saw as controlling I saw as me making decisions because she was very indecisive. It is really bad now because she feels like she is in control of herself for the first time in years. Hence the sleeping in the other room, the taking off her rings, her deciding when conversations end by spazzing ou to make me leave the room. When we argue she calls me controlling because I do not just allow her to make false assumptions or accusations about me and my motives and feelings. I stand up to her, I am controlling. Sigh.
> 
> Back to the start, I do believe that if she starts to feel the edge come off then she will continue the meds and manage them once I am out. She thinks she is going to turn into some sort of Stepford wife by taking these meds. I have fed her all the things to watch for and kept the talk to a minimum as to avoid scaring her or so she doesn't feel like I am pushing her in either direction. I do not want to talk to her about the alcohol interaction because she may see it as some sort of ploy to prevent her from hanging out with her friends. I also don't want her to get a week into treatment and stop because she feels like the occasional beer is more important. It's really an impossible decision to make. I'd have a friend tell her but i know she is keeping it under wraps and if anyone talks to her she will know that I mentioned it.
> 
> As for do I wish to stay with her if she remains depressed? Well, she stuck with me for the longest and I do believe that marriage is forever with the exceptions of physical abuse or something really extreme. If she starts to come out of it or starts to fall apart I would still be willing to help pick up the pieces.
> 
> I still love this woman, more so now that I did six months ago. She is the mother of my children and the person I committed to forever. I will be beside her as long as I live or until she forces me away. She did the same until she felt that I had forced her to quit me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She is a step ford wife before she ever took the drugs.....


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## Kolors

Maybe in the sense that she constantly tried to change everything to meet what she thought was my perceived needs. She changed a lot about herself due to what she thought I wanted.


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## happyman64

And in case you haven't noticed your wife is trying to run away.

She is just trying to lay all the blame on you.

It isn't working hence her step up in drama, aggression and crying fits.

She needs more therapy than you.

Keep being you. Kolors 2.0. 

Do not let her engage you in melodramatic behavior. She is trying to bring you down to her level and escalate the drama so she can force you to leave the home on your own.

It will alleviate her guilt......

Stay firm, aloof and positive for you.

HM


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## Kolors

Oh I totally know she wants to run away. I think we covered that like 20 pages ago lol.

I can't see why she would step up any sort of drama to force me out since I am out as quick as I can get my other house in order. 

She said something peculiar today that I just thought about though. I asked her to do something with her rings other than leave them in the jewelry box on our dresser. I told her that with it being the time of year that people frequently break into houses looking for "presents" I did not feel comfortable with them just laying around the house while we were gone. If she did not want to wear them then I can put them in a safe deposit box Monday while I am out. She told me not to worry about it since it was her rings but she would take care of it. I also told her that I hated that it got to me that she took them off but in a decade she only did that when she was too pregnant for them to fit.

She told me that for the longest time I did not wear my ring everyday and that it really only bothered me the first time that I did it. She is right, I used to leave it sitting on my computer keyboard or on the nightstand for days at a time and never thought about it being hurtful. 

She then told me that I am not hurting for the same things that she hurt for over the last few years. 

I have noticed a trend where she seems to be replaying all of the things that I did to her but in the position where I was. Working late, going out with friends and staying later than planned, denial of affection, not wearing my ring, not answering the phone or texts, and bottling up in general. It is like she is running though it all to let me know how it felt so I can hurt like she did.

The question is, will she eventually run through her list and is she seeing if I will stick around like she did.

On a positive note, I am finishes with school in about four days for a month and a half. I cant wait to have that free time again.

Oh and War Eagle, way to beat Alabama.


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## Kolors

Yay daughter decided that she wanted the whole family to go to a bday party today! I really wish it weren't so awkward hanging out with the wife. I am trying to mess with her as little as possible but I keep wanting to interact with her in some sort of hope that she will start to relax around me. 

The party is at a mall and I saw the ornaments that we buy each year but it just feels weird holiday shopping. 

Happy notes, she took the Zoloft again this morning and she Came into the bedroom and hung out with us again today. She has out her rings on her necklace so they aren't laying around now. I still plan to wear mine. My tenant started moving things out today and will have his final date tomorrow I plan to mail his 7 day eviction papers tomorrow just in case. 

I hate being out and seeing what looks like happy families. They could be as miserable as us and putting on a face too, who knows.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Stop being miserable.

Stop using the "us" word.

Keep the focus on you. Continue to improve as a man and father.

You have very little to be miserable about.

You are healthy.
Your wife is healthy. Maybe not in her head but you cannot fix that for her.
Your kids are healthy.

Stay in control of that which you can control.

Stop worrying if she is wearing her rings.

Worry about a fulltime job. School. The kids.

Everything will sort itself out in time.

And if your wife is not willing to work on her issues or the marriage issues then it is her loss.

That is the way you need to think.

HM


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## just got it 55

What he said


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## LongWalk

> I hate being out and seeing what looks like happy families. They could be as miserable as us and putting on a face too, who knows.


That is why I wrote you about my friend facing liver failure. Things could always be worse.

Do you think your wife is going to let go of you once you move out?

After separation do you think your wife is going to engage in successful relationships? If they fail, is she going to put her long face on and complain about it to you?

re: the rings, etc
Agree with HappyMan. If your wife has no desire to be intimate, who cares whether she wears the ring.

When did you realize that your wife's runner ways would play out in your relationship as well?

At the end of the day, your wife considers to you to be stronger than her: prove her right.


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## Kolors

On my own I am not miserable. I actually only get that way when I am around the wife and have nothing really to say to her. I hate silence of any sort, I talk to anyone that will listen.

I won't stop the work. I already notice others doing things that I used to do an I see how annoying it is. Like last night sitting at a table with 6 friends an 4 of them barely looking up from their cellphones. I used to be that guy too. It was a constant stream of calls and emails and texts. My wife actually made a comment about it today how used to wake up to my phone and go to sleep to my phone with little time for anything else. I now leave it in the car or in another room when I am home just to break that habit.

My free time after this Wednesday will be pretty much filled with job hunting. I should have my 2nd interview with one company this week. 

I do sort of see her doing some work. I see taking the meds and asking me to book more MC sessions as a positive. I see her cutting back some of the contact with the guy friend an totally with the other guy as positive. Not talking is the best thing I've ever done, it's just not in my nature to be silent lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

LongWalk said:


> That is why I wrote you about my friend facing liver failure. Things could always be worse.
> 
> Do you think your wife is going to let go of you once you move out?
> 
> After separation do you think your wife is going to engage in successful relationships? If they fail, is she going to put her long face on and complain about it to you?
> 
> re: the rings, etc
> Agree with HappyMan. If your wife has no desire to be intimate, who cares whether she wears the ring.
> 
> When did you realize that your wife's runner ways would play out in your relationship as well?
> 
> At the end of the day, your wife considers to you to be stronger than her: prove her right.




Since all of this started I've seen so any people in much worse situations than I am in. I really have no major needs or issues aside from a rough patch in my marriage. I really am thankful that I do not have it like many of those around us.

I knew she was a runner eight years ago when she tried to run but came back that night an explained that she just prefers to run as opposed to stand and fight.

I can also see sorrow in her face when I just act normal and do good things with the kids. She tears up when I am still nice and I pretend that nothing is wrong. Not acknowledging the problem gets to her faster than debating past offenses. I saw her start to tear up two or three times today when I was interacting with the kids and when I paid her a compliment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> On my own I am not miserable. I actually only get that way when I am around the wife and have nothing really to say to her. I hate silence of any sort, I talk to anyone that will listen.
> 
> I won't stop the work. I already notice others doing things that I used to do an I see how annoying it is. Like last night sitting at a table with 6 friends an 4 of them barely looking up from their cellphones. I used to be that guy too. It was a constant stream of calls and emails and texts. My wife actually made a comment about it today how used to wake up to my phone and go to sleep to my phone with little time for anything else. I now leave it in the car or in another room when I am home just to break that habit.
> 
> My free time after this Wednesday will be pretty much filled with job hunting. I should have my 2nd interview with one company this week.
> 
> I do sort of see her doing some work. I see taking the meds and asking me to book more MC sessions as a positive. I see her cutting back some of the contact with the guy friend an totally with the other guy as positive. Not talking is the best thing I've ever done, it's just not in my nature to be silent lol.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kolors: I never learned a thing listening to myself talk


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## Kolors

Never thought about that 55. I can see the wisdom in that.


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> Never thought about that 55. I can see the wisdom in that.


Just another thing I learned from my Dad

I always should have listened to him more

He's gone now but it's not too late to learn from his advice and words of wisdom. Miss that man every day.


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## Kolors

So, somehow we have made it two days without a fight. I think that the better we both manage what we say to each other the easier it becomes to coexist again. 

Last night went really well. We do the elf on the shelf with the kids each year, so last night we read them the story about the elf coming. It was nice to all be piled up on the couch reading a story laughing and having a good time again. After we put the kids down we loaded back up on the couch to watch walking dead and had a really good time. Conversation seemed much easier and really had much to do with nothing at all. After the show was over I hopped up and a little cleaning around the house while she played on the computer. I Stop back by the living room at one point and asked her if she'd seen any of the side effects from the new medicine. Aside from not sleeping at all hardly she really has not noticed any other bad effects. I told her that I had read a bunch of people's journals and told her the bit that I had learned about the med and it's effects. I also mentioned the alcohol reaction and told her that they advise not drinking for a month or two until the meds stabilize. Then you can have a beer or two to see how it reacts. She seemed to understand.

Just as she went to bed I hopped up and left for a while. I thought she was asleep but I was wrong. When I came back from riding around 45 mins later she asked me what was up and said she was having troubles sleeping. I sat down beside her on he couch, rubber her head, and talked to her about nothing for a bit until she finally managed to sleep. I know, I know, she more than likely baited me into it but it didn't seem to bother either one if us. She finally slept and it really relaxed me as well.

Today' is another day. Let's see what it brings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Where do you drive?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Kolors

Nowhere in particular. Last night I drive across town to a cheap gas station and picked up a donut and out gas in the truck. Then I just drove randomly, taking turns as I saw fit. I didn't go by anywhere that has any meaning, really just trying to not sit idle and appear to have things outside the home to do.

I do it a couple times a week now, it is relaxing.

She was quite nice this morning as well, played on the bed with me and the daughter until it was time to leave. Our daughter forces us to touch each other or hug and kiss and be playful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

> I sat down beside her on he couch, rubber her head, and talked to her about nothing for a bit until she finally managed to sleep. I know, I know, she more than likely baited me into it but it didn't seem to bother either one if us. She finally slept and it really relaxed me as well.


If it both makes you feel good it is not baiting....



> Our daughter forces us to touch each other or hug and kiss and be playful.


Your daughter is the smart one. Keep following her lead... 

Now go get that job!

HM


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## LongWalk

Kolors said:


> Nowhere in particular. Last night I drive across town to a cheap gas station and picked up a donut and out gas in the truck. Then I just drove randomly, taking turns as I saw fit. I didn't go by anywhere that has any meaning, really just trying to not sit idle and appear to have things outside the home to do.
> 
> I do it a couple times a week now, it is relaxing.
> 
> She was quite nice this morning as well, played on the bed with me and the daughter until it was time to leave. Our daughter forces us to touch each other or hug and kiss and be playful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Cool. I love to wander around. Try making that into a workout time. Hard physical exercise will help you even more.

Your daughter is sweet.


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## just got it 55

Kolors There is no harm in offering comfort if it is welcome

As long as you expect nothing in return.

Stay the course Stay Positive

55


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## Kolors

I don't expect anything in return. All I hope is to show her that I am not the enemy. I hope that I can stick more positive experiences out there than negative ones so she will at least have to debate her decisions in her own mind.

I am getting better at not talking each day. No MC this week, we were put on every other week. That means that as long as I can avoid being drawn into anything or creating issues out of thin air, we can walk into MC next week with no fights for 10 days. That is my goal.

I think if we can make the creation of hurt stop, our counselor can start doing her job.


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> I don't expect anything in return. All I hope is to show her that I am not the enemy. I hope that I can stick more positive experiences out there than negative ones so she will at least have to debate her decisions in her own mind.
> 
> I am getting better at not talking each day. No MC this week, we were put on every other week. *That means that as long as I can avoid being drawn into anything or creating issues out of thin air, we can walk into MC next week with no fights for 10 days. That is my goal.*
> I think if we can make the creation of hurt stop, our counselor can start doing her job.


Kolors It sounds like you are playing Not To Lose NO ?

How do you see it ?

Showing her that you are not the enemy is a good strategy


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## Kolors

Of course I am playing to not lose. I really enjoy where I am right now in life, aside from the two jobs and sad wife. If I had my work and wife in order, I would be on top of the world since I have learned so much about myself.

I still have a long way to go, don't get me wrong. I still need to learn to focus on one thing at a time, and I need to make sure that I keep my wife and family as my priority.

I realize that we have 2, maybe 3 MC sessions before the proposed separation date. I have 30 more days of waking up in this home with my family unless my wife has a change in her heart. 

I cannot afford to lose and I do not want to be the reason that I lose. As I told her the last time we spoke personally, the only way I can be here on January 2nd is if you ask me to be.


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## Tobyboy

Kolors said:


> Nowhere in particular. Last night I drive across town to a cheap gas station and picked up a donut and out gas in the truck. Then I just drove randomly, taking turns as I saw fit. I didn't go by anywhere that has any meaning, really just trying to not sit idle and appear to have things outside the home to do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What would you do if you woke up in the middle of the night to find your W gone? Panic?
Remember....every action has a reaction! Not trying to bust balls. 
Everybody needs alone time....just be considerate! No need to sneak out at night. A gym open 24hrs is lot better than a stale convenient store donut across town.


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## Kolors

I would call her to see what she was up to. There has never been any questioning of what I was out doing at night. She has always went to bed early and told me that she wouldn't mind if I went out after she was asleep, I have never taken her up on that. I also have two cell phones on me so there is no question as to if I could be reached.

I see your point though, why do it myself and give her a reason to go and do it as well. Next time I will make sure to leave a note by her phone just in case.


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## Tobyboy

Kolors said:


> I would call her to see what she was up to. There has never been any questioning of what I was out doing at night. She has always went to bed early and told me that she wouldn't mind if I went out after she was asleep, I have never taken her up on that. I also have two cell phones on me so there is no question as to if I could be reached.
> 
> I see your point though, why do it myself and give her a reason to go and do it as well. Next time I will make sure to leave a note by her phone just in case.


Do you have a live-in nanny? Who watches out for the baby(yes, 18m is still a baby) while all this is going on? 
Now you got me questioning the authencity of this thread.


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## LongWalk

I read what you posted on the thread by.... what is her name... the WAW who is fed up with her unengaged husband. Your ability to go and read that sort of post says a great deal about how you have benefited from TAM. I wish I had had such insight when I was in your position.

My ex was never the type to threaten suicide but she sure felt terrible. I know that I was responsible. I had all sorts of issue that did not prepare me to be a good husband. I am actually relieved that I understand myself and that situation better today.

I am sorry if I have written things that over emphasized the negatives in your situation. You have taken those sorts of statements, evaluated them, and tossed out what you found irrelevant without taking offense. That is also a good sign, for if you can meet these sorts of challenges on TAM, you will be better ready to meet them from your wife, too.

It may be that you wife is so depressed, tired and anxious, that keeping you will be her best option. She may even fall in love with you again because it will make the most sense to her if she decides to trust you. Clearly, as you are well aware, letting her decide that on her own based on your actions is the route to inducing this if it is going to happen.

Furthermore, even if she remains determined to separate, you will be strong enough to take it with equanimity. That will increase the chances that she will reconsider after a period of time. The danger after separation is that she will be diverted in some sort of new relationship, which even if it fails will suck away time and energy before she comes round.

I had no sisters. So as child there was little opportunity to become accustomed to the way women think. Interesting that in our education there is no subject: how the opposite sex thinks, what do they think about us?

Think if young guy had a HappyMan uncle, what help that would be. Otherwise, you have figure it out on your own and maybe at high cost.


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## Kolors

Tobyboy said:


> Do you have a live-in nanny? Who watches out for the baby(yes, 18m is still a baby) while all this is going on?
> Now you got me questioning the authencity of this thread.


No one watches a sleeping baby. He sleeps through the night 28 out of 30 days each month. If we are both at work they are in school or daycare. If we are not there at night her mom comes over or we hire a sitter.

I wish this thread was fake lol. Christ I would love for this to all have been one long ass joke.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tobyboy

Kolors said:


> No one watches a sleeping baby._Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't even know what to say about that statement....


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## lenzi

Kolors said:


> No one watches a sleeping baby. He sleeps through the night 28 out of 30 days each month.


You'd be ok with both of you going out and no one is home with the baby?


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## Kolors

You two have literacy issues. Go back and read for comprehension. There is always someone with our children. They have their own rooms, we do not sleep with them or stare at them all night.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Ugh horrible dreams all night. My brain keeps thinking about how many days I have left at home and it is a major stressor. I believe I have 8 actual nights at home with the kids left, I work all the others.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> Ugh horrible dreams all night. My brain keeps thinking about how many days I have left at home and it is a major stressor. I believe I have 8 actual nights at home with the kids left, I work all the others.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Stop focusing on how many nights you have left. That helps no one.

Focus on finding a stable job. You both have lousy work hours that hurt your marriage and family time.

This "Happyman Uncle" as LW so eloquently called me had two sister, one wife and 3 daughters. One of my sisters is my twin. I have a good perspective on how woman think.

It has benefitted me throughout my life. The hard part was not taking advantage of that insight. 

The fact that I did has been balanced by God's revenge of blessing me with 3 daughters and no sons. 

If you really want to give your marriage the best shot Kolors you need to embrace life. Do not show fear of the separation if your wife pushes for it.

Continue to be the best man, father.

The enemy is not you at this point. It is your wife's mind.

She is stuck in a viscous tug of war in her mind.

Do I trust him or do I not trust him?
Do I love him or do I no longer love him?
Do I want this marriage or do I want to be single?
Will he go back to his old ways or is this the old Kolors I married?

You need to be you. Calm, cool. Trusting to a degree. You need to be the best man and father.

If she will not allow you to be her husband all you can do is show her the loss of you in her life.

How?

By being the best man you can be.

It is a positive for you so why not do it?

Your wife needs to answer her questions. 

She needs silence. She needs peace. She needs help. She needs counseling.

You can give that to her. She will most likely ask for that (separation).

So give it to her.

With a smile on your face. With a false air of bravado. Wish her well. Define your boundaries clearly so there is no BS on both your parts.

Use that time to improve you.

Sometimes absence makes the heart grow fonder.

Think about it. Believe it. Live it.

HM


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## Kolors

Oh don't get me wrong, i am not expressing any of this to her or around her. In her presence I am cool and calm and only speak positive. Honestly, I am still incredibly comfortable around her even though I never know what to say. I continue to update her about my tenant leaving and the plan I have for the other house. When we last talked about it I made it known that I was gone at the start of January for sure with no discussion unless she changes her mind and asks me to stay. I won't beg to stay or even ask her to reconsider.

I did ask her out for her birthday next Friday night. I plan to take her to the ballet and then to view the Christmas trees in the park. It's the first date we have had in three months.

Internally I'm a mess, externally it is all good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

> Internally I'm a mess, externally it is all good.


I will say it again because I like you.

Come to accept the separation. Do it for you. Fix your issues.

Come to peace with it because it cannot be avoided.

If you do that you will not be a mess inside.

And once you are at peace with yourself you can focus on being a great man, a great father and a happy person.

Maybe she will notice the difference maybe she will not.

But you as a healthy person will be a lot further along in the healing process.

I hope this helps you.

HM


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## LongWalk

You have come a long ways in short time. Your wife will feel the strength building. It will seem like gross unfairness that you do not share the dark place that finds herself. She believes you created her troubles and kicking you out should resolve them. That now looks unlikely. Her thoughts of suicide are disturbing. When you leave will you tell her that she can call you any time?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Accepting separation it one thing. I accept that it will more than likely happen. Tenant is giving me the key back on Thursday so the reality will more than likely set in on us both when I start spending most of my free time out there getting it ready to live in.

Being at peace with it? Whew that is asking a lot. I really am unsure that I am capable of it at this time. I like to lie to myself and say that I am ok with it but honestly I am not. I really am not OK with splitting my family up but I do not that it is not my choice. You are right, as long as I am not at peace with it I will be a mess inside. Inside I still hurt badly and want so bad to find a way to just let it go.

She notices that I have changed. She knows that I am a totally different man now than I was 6 months ago or even 6 years ago. It's her that cannot move on from the past in order to build a new relationship. She will not admit it but there is a ton of hurt in her eyes.


LW- She won't resolve them. She will bury them and run away. She will continue to distance herself from me in every way possible. I cannot tell if it is because she feels guilt, or emotions growing, or just being let down that I have not left yet.

I really would love to "come to peace" with leaving. I know it takes a big person to just walk away and maybe that showing of strength will jolt her. I've been a big person about so much during this whole ordeal that I just wish she would stop for a minute and really think hard about what is about to happen.

Anyhow, time to head back to work. Evening folks.


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## LongWalk

What is difficult for an outsider to gauge is her resiliance. When she was scoffing at your reaction to her demand to separate she sounded adult. Since then, though, she has fallen apart. Sometimes you pick her up and she seems to accept this. Habit alone?

For the sake of your children one can only hope that separation does not lead to a worse situation. 

If she pulls herself together, what will that mean for your marriage? Could go either way. She might take independence as a means to seal her detachment permanently. But she might also get some perspective that would give her a second wind.

Will she be too weary to date?

A woman looking for a rescuer will probably not have good judgment about the men who pursue her.


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## just got it 55

Kolors I would be prepared to be getting a ton of calls and texts.

She does not seem capable to cope on her own.

I would be careful to not let her rely on your advice too much

With the children , no question be there to help her .

With her , let her understand the full impact of your absence.

55


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## Kolors

LongWalk said:


> If she pulls herself together, what will that mean for your marriage? Could go either way. She might take independence as a means to seal her detachment permanently. But she might also get some perspective that would give her a second wind.
> 
> Will she be too weary to date?


That is what it has boiled down to. I believe separation will lead her to detach. She thinks it may give a second wind. We have a date scheduled for next Friday and have talked about going out weekly if / when we separate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

just got it 55 said:


> Kolors I would be prepared to be getting a ton of calls and texts.
> 
> She does not seem capable to cope on her own.
> 
> I would be careful to not let her rely on your advice too much
> 
> With the children , no question be there to help her .
> 
> With her , let her understand the full impact of your absence.
> 
> 55


She doesn't need my help with the kids. She has always been an amazing mother. She doesn't want to cope I believe, she wants to bury the past. I also expect her to avoid calls and texts to give herself maximum separation to clear her mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> She doesn't need my help with the kids. She has always been an amazing mother. She doesn't want to cope I believe, she wants to bury the past. I also expect her to avoid calls and texts to give herself maximum separation to clear her mind.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know better than us as you live it

But you may be in for some suprises

I am sure she is a great Mom

But she is not Mom & Dad she is just Mom

When reality hits her all bets are off

55


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## Kolors

I agree. Who's to say I won't move out and enjoy my freedom so much that I become a deadbeat? There really is no way to tell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> I agree. Who's to say I won't move out and enjoy my freedom so much that I become a deadbeat? There really is no way to tell.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wonder if she thought of you enjoying your freedom ?

The deadbeat thing I kind of doubt that my young brother.


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## Kolors

I doubt it too but there are no definates in this world as I have learned.

I seriously doubt she's thought of what I'll be out doing. Everything is revolving around her right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> I doubt it too but there are no definates in this world as I have learned.
> 
> I seriously doubt she's thought of what I'll be out doing. Everything is revolving around her right now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's good you realize that 

Watch and learn

Fail More Fear less

And remember the play not to lose comment.

You see that in football alot.

Hardly ever works out




55


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## Kolors

just got it 55 said:


> It's good you realize that
> 
> 
> Fail More Fear less
> 
> 
> 55


It is funny that you say that because that has been my new philosophy as of the last week or so. The more OK with being shot down I am the easier it is to ask for what I want, regardless of what she says. I push my boundaries a little each day, I get shot down pretty consistently but I am at least going down fighting. None of my advances have been met with a fight.

By the way, we have been through almost 4 days without a fight or huge discussion about our relationship. Aside from our vacation, that is the first time in 3 months that we have left each other the hell alone.


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## LongWalk

Is it fair to say that some part of your wife's energy has been going into changing you by expressing her discontent? Even if it has been passive aggressive, her mind has been actively engaged. Finally she decided that this had to end. And now that it is ending you no longer fight with her. She has in a sense succeeded in getting through to you.

This could put you in a better position to coparent or reconcile. If you separate, you could still agree not to see others for period of time but that would get old after a period of time. In some way that would be like volunteering to be plan B. Maybe better to declare yourself (in action, not words) plan A.

Perhaps the question of dating exclusively should be left up to her a as a subject to put on the table. Separation without an explicit discussion means freedom to date IMO.

Hard to say how it will play out for you, but regardless give her what she wants as if it doesn't matter to you. A man with self respect is not going to weedle and cajole his estranged wife to remain true if the purpose of the split is to divorce.

One other observation: (Let's see is HappyMan agrees)
Since you have been getting your shxt together, you have been gaining respect for the parts of yourself that are solid. As to your mistakes and shortcomings, you are accepting that they are on your record. You are not self flagelating yourself over the past. It is a lesson, instead of being a liability it is the basis for wisdom. 

Has this distance allowed you to see your wife's qualities? Do you think she has put in a heroic effort at times? Is is possible that you have a new appreciation for her? If she realizes this, she may feel that losing you is a real loss for you are the one who can really appreciate her?

HappyMan how would you compare LL and Kolors's wives?


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## Kolors

The thing is, she never tried to change me. She changed everything around me to fit me. If I mentioned not liking something she would go out if her way to silently change it and I would never notice.

Our counselor recommended no dating anyone but each other until we decide to work it out or divorce. We both agreed that it was a good idea since neither of us are looking for a new relationship, just to see if this one is worth salvaging.

I do have a new appreciation for my wife. I never understood just how hard she worked to hold our home together. I never really saw just how strong of a woman she is. I knew she was a good mom but I didn't realize she was an exceptional mom. Our home was never spotless but I didn't realize the amount if work she put in each week. I didn't appreciate how her days off work were filled with 8 hours of work, not 8 hours of sitting around. I now appreciate how she loved me, regardless of how little I have back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Ah Kolors you remind me of me a few years ago.



> I do have a new appreciation for my wife. I never understood just how hard she worked to hold our home together. I never really saw just how strong of a woman she is. I knew she was a good mom but I didn't realize she was an exceptional mom. Our home was never spotless but I didn't realize the amount if work she put in each week. I didn't appreciate how her days off work were filled with 8 hours of work, not 8 hours of sitting around. I now appreciate how she loved me, regardless of how little I have back.


If you truly believe the above quote then you need to be prepared to do whatever it takes to fix you......

Not because your wife deserves the best "you" like she has show herself to be.

But because you want to give her the best man you can be. You want to give your kids the best father you can be.


Marriages/Relationships are about giving. And the only thing expected back is respect, compassion and understanding.

It is good that you have seen where your depression has taken you. Where it has taken your marriage.

I do believe your eyes are wide open to your situation.

Fix those issues permanently. Be strong. Be fearless.

HM

LW
Interesting question about LL and Kolors wives. I have to think about that........


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## Kolors

So this year I've been incredibly excited about Christmas. It may be because I finally joined the church again after about 15 years of not attending. It may just be because it's typically a happy time so I am trying my best to really enjoy it.

Tonight A local church is putting on an evening of hot chocolate, snacks, and Christmas carols. It just so happens to be the same church that my daughters best friend attends. My wife had decided that she was going to stay home with our son because he is too small to manage during the program. I offered to handle him, and if he got too restless I would walk him around or just take him outside. She still stuck with her option of just staying home with him, so me and my daughter are going to go alone.

This morning I mentioned that the program was tonight, and the option was still there for her to come. She tossed a bunch of excuses at me like how could I have all the kids ready by that time and what am I going to do to keep our son amused during the event. I'm glad she did it, because I had answers for every question she threw at me.

So, here is my game plan. I am out picking up the children right now, I will have them home and fed before she gets home from work, and I will have both children and myself dressed and ready 30 minutes before the program starts. I am also dressing up this evening, slacks, shirt, tie, the whole 9 yards. I plan to start dressing well so I will be more comfortable dressing up for interviews and this will be a good time to start.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Good! She'll be challenged to put on a dress. If she does, nothing wrong with saying she looks beautiful (in a non needy way).

If she doesn't go, it will also be fine. Be careful not to let kids eat to much sugar. Causes problems if they are high and then crash.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Kolors

Lol I don think she will put on a dress. I'm not even sure if she still has any that fits, she hasn't purchased one in years. I have a gift card for her to a clothing store for Xmas in my wallet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Such a strange evening. As we got ready to leave our daughter asked mommy to stay home and watch the house so we could go have fun. It was awkward at the least. Anyhow we made it to the function and saw friends and acted as though nothing was wrong. Our daughter saw her friends and they all had so much fun. We didn't even really see her until after the program. The church was a new sorta baptist church and really drove home a message the whole time, nothing at all like the nondenominational church we attend.

After we made it home and put he kids to bed we went about doing our own thing. An hour or so later I sat with her in the living room and watched a bit of TV and had small talk. I'm personally so tired of this meaningless dribble talk that we have. Eventually she went to change for bed and stopped to help me fold laundry. 

I continued to nudge her, saying something about she could always just sleep in the bed again since she is only sleeping like 4 hours a night and somehow it pushed us into the talk that we aren't supposed to have. She rallied to the "you pushed me away for several years and I can't get over it" talk. I told her once again that I can't make up for that but I can live right and make sure it doesn't happen again. She said something about how I was just wanting her to drop it and I once again told her to keep up defenses as long as she wants, I just want her to stop making it worse each time things start to look better. She started to being up something about changing diapers or reading stories three years ago and I had to interrupt her and tell her that I had already had her to off in me about that at least 30 times, unless it need with something new we do not need to get into that again, I have already apologized. She then decided the conversation was over and walked out.

I poked my head back in the living room and she said she was through talking, I told her that it is unfair that she thinks she can control each conversation and when it starts and finishes. She said unless I had something new to say then she want listening anymore. That's fair. I went ahead and told her tuings that I had been holding off on because I didn't want to really hurt her. I told her that moving out won't solve anything since we won't work on anything apart, it will only break her financially, cause me to waste a bunch of cash, and destroy our daughter. I am not so much fighting for her as I am fighting for enough time to show her and the family that I am here and will refuse to replace them again. I told her I can leave anytime after today since I get my rental keys back but I would prefer to just stop this sh!t now and fix our family. I told her the truth, I want her back in the bed because she belongs there, the more she distances herself from me the worse it will make it and the less likely that we can reconcile.

I also told her hat I don't really care about her rings, or friends, or that she doesn't like what I used to do, none of that matters more than saving our family. I said that if I move out then we will both move on. She said she had on interest in moving on. She just doesn't want to wait two years to see what I do. I couldn't promise what I would do but I'd much rather her quit now and just let me be me. I don't want her affection or trust or forgiveness yet, I just want Time to earn it.

She said fine and got up and went back to our bed. I told her not to stay if she didn't mean it and he stayed. We talked a bit more then slept. We ended up with the baby at 1 am but I handled him. She still stayed awake from 1-3 like she was doing in the couch.

Today's a new day. I expect her in the couch tonight but who knows anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Less talking more action.

It is good that you put a stop to her rehashing old BS.

My guess is that nothing will change.

And while you are right that nothing will get worked on if you move out if she is back on the couch or not pushing to keep the family together then you have your answer.

No matter what take charge. Be the man. Be the leader.

Less talking more action.

How long has it been since you both had sex (make love) with each other???

HM


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## sammy3

I just want to add my .02. I have a h that is doing a lot like Kolors, trying to "change" become a better person. Yes, there are areas where he needs to do so, for him as a person, but I find even the positive changes, how do I say this? Make it seem worst to me.. Pushes me even futher away??? Like Kolors wife said to him, "it's not real"... 
but could it be, it's, like,"Who are you now? 

~ sammy


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> Such a strange evening. As we got ready to leave our daughter asked mommy to stay home and watch the house so we could go have fun. It was awkward at the least. Anyhow we made it to the function and saw friends and acted as though nothing was wrong. Our daughter saw her friends and they all had so much fun. We didn't even really see her until after the program. The church was a new sorta baptist church and really drove home a message the whole time, nothing at all like the nondenominational church we attend.
> 
> After we made it home and put he kids to bed we went about doing our own thing. An hour or so later I sat with her in the living room and watched a bit of TV and had small talk. I'm personally so tired of this meaningless dribble talk that we have. Eventually she went to change for bed and stopped to help me fold laundry.
> 
> I continued to nudge her, saying something about she could always just sleep in the bed again since she is only sleeping like 4 hours a night and somehow it pushed us into the talk that we aren't supposed to have. She rallied to the "you pushed me away for several years and I can't get over it" talk. I told her once again that I can't make up for that but I can live right and make sure it doesn't happen again. She said something about how I was just wanting her to drop it and I once again told her to keep up defenses as long as she wants, I just want her to stop making it worse each time things start to look better. She started to being up something about changing diapers or reading stories three years ago and I had to interrupt her and tell her that I had already had her to off in me about that at least 30 times, unless it need with something new we do not need to get into that again, I have already apologized. She then decided the conversation was over and walked out.
> 
> I poked my head back in the living room and she said she was through talking, I told her that it is unfair that she thinks she can control each conversation and when it starts and finishes. She said unless I had something new to say then she want listening anymore. That's fair. I went ahead and told her tuings that I had been holding off on because I didn't want to really hurt her. I told her that moving out won't solve anything since we won't work on anything apart, it will only break her financially, cause me to waste a bunch of cash, and destroy our daughter. I am not so much fighting for her as I am fighting for enough time to show her and the family that I am here and will refuse to replace them again. I told her I can leave anytime after today since I get my rental keys back but I would prefer to just stop this sh!t now and fix our family. I told her the truth, I want her back in the bed because she belongs there, the more she distances herself from me the worse it will make it and the less likely that we can reconcile.
> 
> I also told her hat I don't really care about her rings, or friends, or that she doesn't like what I used to do, none of that matters more than saving our family. I said that if I move out then we will both move on. She said she had on interest in moving on. She just doesn't want to wait two years to see what I do. I couldn't promise what I would do but I'd much rather her quit now and just let me be me. I don't want her affection or trust or forgiveness yet, I just want Time to earn it.
> 
> She said fine and got up and went back to our bed. I told her not to stay if she didn't mean it and he stayed. We talked a bit more then slept. We ended up with the baby at 1 am but I handled him. She still stayed awake from 1-3 like she was doing in the couch.
> 
> Today's a new day. I expect her in the couch tonight but who knows anymore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now THIS is playing to win not to NOT LOSE

But HM64 is correct

Less talk more doing more positive actions

Do not let it lead to ultimatum talk. Nothing to gain there


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## turnera

You said, just let me be me.

Who's stopping you?


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## Kolors

Yea I told her when it started that I really didn't want to talk about it. The issue is she will start something with a comment and then expect me to let her tell me lies about me. Then she wants to walk off and feel justified. I am just now going to let that happen.

It was different this time though, there was no yelling or panicking like before. It's either us calming down or the meds leveling her out. I hope it's both.

I can't have ultimatum talks, I am not in a position to make demands. She has no intent on moving on, just us calming down apart and seeing if it can work.

The last time we were intimate was a week before this all started, so damn near three months ago. She won't do it now because it feels like caving in to me, letting me think I have won and that I can relax and treat her badly again.

And she stops me from being me, or at least a calm me. She pushes me to see my reactions. It seems like she is starting to test me less or at least test me to see if I make a peaceful stand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

You have control over your own reactions, she doesn't do ANYTHING to you you don't decide to do. If you need help with that, start doing meditation or yoga, or go to church. Blaming her gets you nowhere but further away from her.

When a woman checks out because of her husband's behavior, coming 'back' is usually a years-long process. I equate men to dogs and women to cats: dogs are just in your face and here I am and I'll handle any aggression with aggression; cats are withdrawn, watchful, careful, loving when feeling safe but protective when not. Once she's in the 'not safe' zone, it will take a LOT of safety, over an even LONGER period of time, before she will allow you near her mentally again. Just is what it is.

Your goal, if you want to stay married, is to STOP FESTERING. Learn how to have patience. Set your goals for months, not weeks and certainly not days. It took years for her to withdraw; it will take nearly as long for her to believe you are for real now. 

So, like someone said, actions, not words. Shut up and just be yourself.


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## LongWalk

It was difficult for her to decide that she wanted to end your relationship. Now that she has set her mind on it, announced it and made it a goal, it is understandably difficult to surrender. Why would someone try and undo a leap to freedom, where things can only get better.

Of course, she knows things will not really get better, unless she is hoping that some miracle problem free guy who loves children is going to pop up. You say your wife has not tried to change you. But in one way she certainly has: she forced you into celibacy. That has harmed both of you. You don't really want to be man in a sexless marriage. That is not you, is it?

Snow White is really a tale: the princess is unable to live because she is drugged. A kiss restores to her to life. Maybe you have to put a move on her once before you leave. If you are in the same bed and having trouble sleeping there is nothing stopping you from holding her hand. If she does not draw away, what is stop you from going further?


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## Kolors

Oh we didn't sleep at opposite corners of the bed or anything last night. I am just not worried about the sex. I understand that I should be and that I still want it but it is not even in my top 10 issues at the moment. I am trying to slowly work my way back in, bit by bit as we go. Sex is a big deal, there is a lot of feeling there that she is just not ready to give back yet. 

And I understand it may take months or years to make stuff right, I just want to stop the downhill slide an level it off. I'll accept a blah relationship for a while to make a great one in the end.

I forgot, last night as we laid there she said that she just doesn't want to look back and regret letting me back in 20 years from now when I am still mistreating her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

As a withdrawn woman, I have to disagree. I don't want my H to try to hold my hand, and I sure as hell don't want him trying anything else.

What I WOULD be ok with, is momentary physical touches of affection, as in a hug, or rubbing my feet on the couch, or rubbing my head as he walks by.


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## LongWalk

What about buying her some perfume?

Kolors has been rubbing her feet, etc.


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## happyman64

> I forgot, last night as we laid there she said that she just doesn't want to look back and regret letting me back in 20 years from now when I am still mistreating her.


Kolors 

I hope you had a response like this:

" What makes you think I will be around in 20 years waiting "
or
" Who is mistreating who? Those days are long over for me. I choose to respect myself, you and our children. I no longer accept the mistreatment on both sides of our relationship. Care to join me? "

Then hold out your hand to her Kolors......

HM

PS
Do not accept the celibacy. Sharing each other would be healthy for both of you. What a shame she sees that as surrendering to you.


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## Kolors

My wife is where Turnera is. She really does not want to he touched. I do things like kiss her in the head, rub her leg as we sit in the couch, or hug her when I get the chance. She is not ready for physical affection. As a guy that is mind blowing, but we are different creatures. What good is a physical relationship without and emotional backing? I can go to the bar this weekend and find some **** to give me physical affection if it was a huge deal to me. 

And HM my response was more like "I can't tell you what I will be like in 20 years but I can tell you what I will be like tomorrow, and next week, and next month. I am happy being back in my skin again, I love you more now, even though I shouldn't, than I have in years, and I will not give up." "I also cannot promise you anything after I leave but while I am here, this is the man I will be."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> My wife is where Turnera is. She really does not want to he touched. I do things like kiss her in the head, rub her leg as we sit in the couch, or hug her when I get the chance. She is not ready for physical affection. As a guy that is mind blowing, but we are different creatures. What good is a physical relationship without and emotional backing? I can go to the bar this weekend and find some **** to give me physical affection if it was a huge deal to me.
> 
> And HM my response was more like *"I can't tell you what I will be like in 20 years but I can tell you what I will be like tomorrow, and next week, and next month. I am happy being back in my skin again, I love you more now, even though I shouldn't, than I have in years, and I will not give up." "I also cannot promise you anything after I leave but while I am here, this is the man I will be."*_Posted via Mobile Device_


Perfect What was her responce ?

More po pooing ?


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## turnera

He shouldn't have waited around to hear it.


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## Kolors

There wasn't one and I didn't ask for one. I got up off the bed and locked up the house, fed the dog, and climbed in bed behind her. I slept right behind her like we used to with a hand in her hip and our feet rubbing until we fell asleep.

I really messed up in the start and should have just handled business instead of panicking an grabbing at straws.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

I just spent the entire day thinking it was Friday.

I did a bit of Christmas shopping, well looking, tonight after a good 13 hour shift. Found something my daughter wanted on sale so I picked it up. Grabbed some sleeping pills for the wife since she cant stay asleep all night long.

So yea, I managed to do 4 parties today and feed what felt like half a country club worth of members. You know, the pay isnt great but it makes me happy.

This weekend my schedule is 8am - until. So yea, 14 or so hours each day. I start overtime tomorrow night lol.

I also have tickets to go see princesses on ice with the daughter this Sunday. That is going to kick a lot of butt.

I figure I never post anything that doesnt revolve around life drama. When I am not home, life is actually really fun!


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> There wasn't one and I didn't ask for one. I got up off the bed and locked up the house, fed the dog, and climbed in bed behind her. I slept right behind her like we used to with a hand in her hip and our feet rubbing until we fell asleep.
> 
> I really messed up in the start and should have just handled business instead of panicking an grabbing at straws.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What have I been sugesting about playing NOT TO LOSE

Keep this up Let her know by these actions.

One way or the other I feel like you have turned a corner


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## just got it 55

Kolors you are working the B shift

Be here when we open

Be here when we close

Been there my young brother


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## Kolors

Lol true. I'm working about 60 hours this week. It's good to be cooking and making what your average plant worker makes an hour.

I've sort of turned a corner. Through the coaxing of a few good friends. In going to keep it up and get my sh!t straight. I've finally set my backup plan in motion an it was hard to get to that point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

So, Ive taken a few days off posting or really reading any threads, I guess that is a good thing that I haven't felt the need to jump online and rant any this weekend.

My life is still a rollercoaster. Hopefully it remains level for a bit longer. I have been rather busy all week so that may have something to do with it.

I still meet my wife at 4:30 during the week and hand off our daughter. Friday I decided to get out of the car and asked her to kiss be before she knew what was happening. She gave me a quick kiss and asked what was up. I told her that I had seen a really nasty wreck a bit earlier and was thinking about how you never know when it is the last time you are going to see someone, so I wanted to kiss her goodbye. I didn't stick around for a conversation, I just told her and the daughter bye and headed out for work. 

That night I came home and hugged her and she acted like a dead fish then made some kind of comment that I really didnt understand (Cant remember anymore either) and we ended up in a conversation about something else that I can't remember. I know that part of the way through it I told her that we have nothing to talk about because she never tells me anything about anyone around her. I also asked her what she thought was going to happen when we separated, as far as logistics and life was concerned and she said that she had not thought about it yet, she was not going to until the time came. That blows my mind! I told her that it wouldn't be all fun and games and I wouldn't be around everyday. I also told her that I wouldn't want to meet her each afternoon since I more than likely will not be in the mood to see her for a while after I leave. I feel like that hit home. Anyhow, at some point she said that she would do all this however I wanted and asked what I suggested. I said that we should both just start acting normal, quit BSing each other, causing drama, and pulling ourselves apart. I told her to stop taking things from me, first it was touch, then it was the ability to just talk, then it was sleeping in our room, then it was the rings, next it will be my home. I said I just wanted it to stop ramping up. I said that sleeping in the bed and allowing us to touch each other was a start, we have been through enough sh!t in 12 years together and we could at least start acting normal again. We work it out or we don't, we need to at least quit making it worse.

So, she has slept in our room since Friday. I cuddle up behind her like we used to until I roll over, then I give her space like she enjoys. We have turned off the TV and turned on a radio to see if that helps her sleep. She has had two full nights of sleep for the first time in six months and shes already back there asleep now. We have hugged, kissed on foreheads and cheeks, and tonight she drunkenly told me she loved me a few times.

Saturday night we went out as a family to see Christmas lights and it was just like the old days, laughing, playing, and everyone having fun. We watched football and cheered and just enjoyed the family being together.

Today I took the daughter to see a disney on ice think and the wife went to her company Christmas party. I assumed she arranged the baby sitter times so she could drop off and pick up our son but she thought that I was going to do it for her. It caused a bit of a stressful moment where I was trying to fix it and she was trying to be pissed but when I came home from work earlier than planned we both just blew it off and went on about our afternoon (first time in a while!). She texted me from her party asking if I could pick up our son at 8 and I told her I could not. I did not want to stop what me and the daughter was doing to drive 45 mins back home and would have been late if we had tried. 

I didnt know at the time, but she got too tipsy to drive so she had a friend drive her over to pick up our son and take the two of them home. I never called her after she asked me to do the pickup I just waited to see what happened. Luckily, she texted me to ask if we were having fun so I called her on our way home. She anticipated me being mad that she was drunk and left her car at work but I was nothing but happy to hear from her. I stopped and picked up some food and headed home to put her in bed. We joked around a bit when I got here then I helped her get dressed for bed and then I handled the kids.

All in all, it was the best weekend that I have had in three months. Is my relationship fixed, nope! Is it on a track to be fixed, no way to tell! Each time I feel like progress is being made we take six steps back so I am going to just keep handling each day as it comes.

Tomorrow is MC night, our first in two weeks. Can't wait to see how this one goes.


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## LongWalk

Good job. That dead fish revulsion may disappear. In MC she may open up a bit. Is this the MC who was giving you some free sessions? Hope you are getting a Christmas present.


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> All in all, it was the best weekend that I have had in three months. Is my relationship fixed, nope! Is it on a track to be fixed, no way to tell! Each time I feel like progress is being made we take six steps back so I am going to just keep handling each day as it comes.
> 
> Tomorrow is MC night, our first in two weeks. Can't wait to see how this one goes.


 Kolors : Play to win my young brother


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## Kolors

Yea the dead fish deal is her trying to not allow me to feel like any progress can be made. She is afraid tail and I understand. I'm smart rough to realize that it will only change if I remain honesty with myself and consistent with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

You have an iphone, don't you?


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## Kolors

Yep
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Although it has few apps, my Windows phone uses my past usage to fill in words for me. It even knows my daughter's name and fills it in when I start it. And it's never given a wrong word. Don't know why Apple can't just buy the right technology.


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## Kolors

Kolors said:


> Yea the dead fish deal is her trying to not allow me to feel like any progress can be made. She is afraid of that and I understand. I'm smart enough to realize that it will only change if I remain honest with myself and consistent with her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Fixed lol.

Yea, the old iphone does some crazy things from time to time. I try to do most of my posting from my laptop but I was laying in bed thinking this morning as we got ready.

We all rode together this morning like the old days since she left one of the vehicles at the Christmas party last night. It was so relaxing to drop the kids off and enjoy talking for 30 minutes before dropping her off to head to work.

Just need to keep the experiences positive and stop producing negative.


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## LongWalk

Typos happen with iPhones

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Kolors

No joke. 

How do moms get so much done in a day? Each day of that I have I run out of time before I get half of what my wife can get done. I have to pick the kids up in an hour and I haven't even made it home to start cleaning house! 

I did manage to get the reindeer antlers and Rudolph nose put on the car today. I mean, that was crucial to my day being complete.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Well MC went well. Our counselor didn't even recognize us because we were laughing and smiling in the lobby and when we hit the couch in her office.

She just say there and watched us for a bit and said she needed a minute to change everything she had planned to say since we were not what she expected to see. 

The counselor has recognized that I have ADD and it setting me up with a new IC that deals with it in adults. My wife had been researching ADD since out last appointment and said she now sees that it has contributed to many of the things that she had been so upset about over the years. The wife seemed excited to hear that I would go see someone about it. 

No one cried this week! She gave us a lot of stuff to read and put it on me to stay on top of acts of service for my wife. We all agreed that things are moving in a positive direction but neither myself or my wife are ready to say that our relationship is better. The MC asked what I wanted from my wife right now and I told her nothing. I need to earn back the parts of our relationship that I have lost and that until she feels like giving herself back then it won't be honest. I really want her to see changes and work and to feel like giving things back. 

In the end I am to stop negative thoughts when they start so I can avoid obsessing, work everyday on being a good husband by contribution, and to verbally acknowledge things she tells me. She is supposed to show appreciation for the things that i do around here, even if it is something minor.

This morning she kissed me on the head before she left all on her own. She also left something at home and asked me to run it up to her. She is starting to feel comfortable enough to ask me for things again, a few months ago she would have done without anything rather than ask me for help.

Things are getting better but we have months and months of work to go. I feel happy again, I miss this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Great update.

Now I will give you some homework as well.

Go back to the beginning of this thread.

Read a few of the things you posted.Of how you acted or let your thoughts get out of control.

Just as a reminder of what not to do.

I am very happy for both of you.

Now keep it up, enjoy the holidays with your family and remember this.

You can only control you!

HM


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## just got it 55

Yes Nice Job Kolors

And I give your wife some credit as well

HM64 advice to re read your posts is a good one

Keep up the positive attitude

Play to win

55


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## Kolors

So, I never heard from the tenant that was living in my other house so I stopped by there today. Thankfully he left the front door unlocked yay!

The house wasn't trashed but it was definitely dirty. They were supposed to clean it before they left but never came back and handled business. Luckily it will only take me a decent afternoon to get it back in shape. If I get the painter in next week and someone to install a new dish washer it should be ready to move into at a moments notice.

I told the wife today that I plan to have it ready and furnished pretty soon. I told her the plan is to have it ready for me to live in or for us to use as a home away from home since it is out in the country and surrounded by woods, horses, and cattle. I said that in a perfect world I would use most of the furniture from our house and our storage to furnish it and buy new stuff for this house. I would put both houses up for sale in the spring and we would buy a new home in the school district that we want our children in or back over in my wife's home town (about 20 minutes away) where I would be more likely to find work in my field.

I really cannot read where she is with our relationship and I cannot spent too much time debating it in my head. I am still putting out all of the good that I can and really hoping that we extend separation day out past Jan. 1st. I feel like avoiding confrontation, building positive experiences, and showing that I can have that house ready in 3 weeks will be the deciding factors. I do not think that she will have to have "that loving feeling" back to continue on with us both here. I think that she understands that it is a long process and that I am committed to working my ass off forever to keep our relationship strong.

So, we have a date night this Friday. This Friday will be her birthday (29 again!) and I plan to blow it out. I purchased tickets to the ballet and have dinner plans afterwards. Our sitter will be watching the children at our place so we can stop for ****tails on the way back into town. I do not believe that there will be any hot action after our date but I know that I would not turn it down  My goal is to show her a good time again, to make the night all about her and her wants, and to make up for the last couple lame dates that we went on. I plan to take the night slow and be as romantic as I can. I hope to hit her heart and make her want to do it again.

She stated IC today with another woman who shares an office with our MC. The MC asked if she and the IC could share information and we both agreed. Tonight my wife covered most of our relationship, including how I checked out while she fought for us and how she recently checked out while I fight for us. Her IC is trying to work on helping her let go of some of the old hurt and allowing the new relationship to blossom. I hope it works.

I also started reading MMSLP today. I have always been a pretty alpha guy until the last 4 or so years. I can see places where I have slacked off and I am working to get those back. I also went out last night and ran two miles in 24f weather for some stupid reason. It felt great until I got back inside my nice warm house, then I thought my skin was on fire! 

Anyhow, big work day tomorrow 8AM until 10 or so PM. Too much food and too little time.


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## happyman64

> then I thought my skin was on fire!


I do not think frostbite is on the romance agenda.

Again control your thoughts. 

And if you end up in bed together and not sleeping so much the better.

But the key is to enjoy each other so just be good and let the night flow.

HM


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## just got it 55

Kolors: The most important thing is that you have a clear understanding of your situation and the challenges it presents .

It is hard to proceed without emotions clouding your judgment, but it seems to me you are on solid ground there.

It’s so important to remain positive. You are doing well.
Be your natural you, after all that’s you can be. Continue to act on your bright future and how you have set a clear path to that end.

Speak in a manner that is your future with your children with the message that your wife is welcome to join you.

Your separation should it happen will be the make or break of your marriage. Do not allow your emotions to deceive you. This is your path, your plan her path is her path. She must decide to join you on her own. 

Play to win

55


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## Kolors

Yea, frostbite may not be sexy.

I mentioned to my wife that she should go out on Thursday nights to see her friends. I asked her each night this week if she made plans and she finally made them last night. My goal for today is to not ask when she plans to come back home and to respond in a pleasant way when he returns home. She used to walk straight in the door and jump on me when she came home. I hope to make that return. If it is late I plan to be asleep. She is still sleeping in the bed so I will see her eventually.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Actually I see the separation as inevitable.

I do not see it as a bad thing.

Because it might just be the one act that allows Kolors wife to shed off her animosity and want to participate in their marriage.

The key is if the separation occurs not to fear it but embrace it.

Use that time to truly fix your personal issues.

Use it to make your wife see what she is truly giving up.

But do not think about it until after the holidays.

HM


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## just got it 55

happyman64 said:


> Actually I see the separation as inevitable.
> 
> I do not see it as a bad thing.
> 
> Because it might just be the one act that allows Kolors wife to shed off her animosity and want to participate in their marriage.
> 
> The key is if the separation occurs *not to fear it but embrace it.*
> 
> Use that time to truly fix your personal issues.
> 
> *Use it to make your wife see what she is truly giving up.*
> 
> But do not think about it until after the holidays.
> 
> HM


:iagree:

Exactly as I see it


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## Kolors

I really hope that it doesn't happen. I will only get to see my kids one, maybe two days a week. I am unsure if she is still dead set on the separation because I am giving her space finally. I believe that she is seeing consistency and it gives us somewhere to work from. I wish she would've been able to get a second IC appointment before the first but her lady was all booked up.

My biggest issue currently is finding things to talk about. She pretty much never has anything to talk about, it's been that way most of the time I have known her. She can sum up her entire day and maybe three minutes. I can't talk about us, I can't talk about anything that has to do with the future, and I can only talk about my day for so long. I have 1 million things that I could talk about but they are all things that were not supposed to talk about. Last night I laid my head in her lap and talked about the research she had done about ADD since I am going to see someone about that in January. She never pushed me away and didn't jerk her hand away when I held it and kissed it. I've also started hugging and cheek kissing several times a day.

It is all starting to make me wonder if all this is really what I want in the end. I do not want to lose my wife and family but I do not know if she will ever recover to the point where I can be comfortable in our relationship again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

> It is all starting to make me wonder if all this is really what I want in the end. I do not want to lose my wife and family but I do not know if she will ever recover to the point where I can be comfortable in our relationship again.


Patience.

Patience.

Rome was not built in a day.

Neither are new marriages.

HM


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## LongWalk

Your struggle to find topics of conversation sounds like the problem of a guy at dance trying to chat up a girl over the loud music. She may be listening.

Does she feel that your engagement is pitiful? Brave?

Probably it is a mixture of conflicted feelings. Just stay steady. Make certain that separation is not dramatic from your side. Her antipathy may wane after you split.

Make the holidays good but without any expectation of averting the split.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## turnera

If you're looking for stuff to talk about, start reading magazines and books. Start listening to NPR radio - they have tons of fascinating news stories you can talk about. And be sure to ask her opinion about them. Nothing more flattering to a woman than to have a man ask what she thinks.


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## Kolors

Yea it's the fact that the things we used to talk about are not currently options. Things like summer vacation, future plans, a new house, and such cannot be brought up.

If treat it like a first date but she has no hobbies, no social life, and very few friends to tell me about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Turnera,

I grew up listening to Susan Stamberg et al. Today I cannot stand 70 percent of NPR. They are so patronizing. So politically correct. They hold ordinary Americans in contempt. The music they promote is good.

Kolors, isn't your wife interested in music?

Also, I do not play lotteries at all. However, you might try buying some tickets for your wife to let her contemplate what luck is all about. Getting rid of you may be like playing the lottery – finding someone better than you may be long odds.

Can you bake good sour dough bread? Sour dough typically takes three days. Following that might be something to talk about.


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## turnera

LongWalk, I LOVE the material on NPR. At least they offer opposing views on subjects, unlike other venues. So, we present two opposing views, as well. Oh well.


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## Kolors

So I haven't really talked a lot about it but her ex coworker still makes me really nervous. I have tried to deny that in the past but over the last few weeks it has made me increasingly nervous. She had a bit of a work crush on him six years ago or so but we talked about it and it went away. Now they text but it is innocent stuff. From what I know the speak a few times a week on the phone. I can't say how I know but I know their conversations are innocent enough. Pretty much all of their texting and FB chats start with her talking to him. There are no weird middle of the night calls and she hasn't been sneaking out after we go to bed. He also has had plenty of occasions to meet up with her while she is out but rarely does. He seems to be intimidated by me and sort of panicked when he saw me down town last week near where they worked.

This guy is not relationship material so I write him off. He makes about 25k a year, lives in a crappy duplex, spends most every night getting drunk alone and downloading music, and really doesn't appear to ever want to go farther than that. He hangs out with mostly women from what I get and really doesn't hook up with any if them, he is in pretty much everyone's friend zone. His typical Saturday is get up at the crack of noon, drink a case of beer, watch football, pass out or walk to the bar.

Here is why it makes me nuts. He always wants to talk in person about his problems. He had some kind of problem on Thanksgiving and would only talk about it in person since it was so hard to talk about over the phone. The day after our last MC appointment, the one where things appeared to be leveling off, she sent him a message that she needed to talk to him "face to face". He had been one of two people that my wife has really talked to about us so I do not know if she wants to get his opinion on us or if it just my brain thinking she needs to discuss something else. Common sense says it is to discuss what may happen if we reconcile but my brain is getting the best of me.

I quit reading her messages but I scrolled thru them right in front of her last night and there was just nothing there other than wanting to meet to talk and wanting him to come to the christmas party and him saying no. 

I pushed her to start seeing her friends on a more routine basis so she wouldn't feel like she was missing her friends and panic on a random Friday night and go out until 4 am mad. I convinced her to go tonight and after messing with her for three days about go out she finally did. I really want her to have her friends and be able to go out without fear of me spazzing. From what I was told, she showed up at the bar with her female friend and this male friend. It is never the two of them alone. She has to work in the morning so she can't be out all that late and there is no way that I am waiting up or calling later. 

We still have our birthday date planned for tomorrow night, sitter and all. I really have to avoid this whole conversation with her again. She has swore on the children that there is nothing there and that she has no interest in him like that. I guess I just needed to vent here before I messed up tomorrow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

A friend of mine just said she feels like my wife and her friend hang out with this guy because he is not a threat to them. They drag him around because he likes to stay at home am it's fun to force him to come play. 

I have a friend that we do the same thing to. Maybe I am jut being nuts and really looking for anything that will not make this all about me just being a former lousy spouse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Her involvement with that guy is sad. He brings so little to the game that it suggests she has real self esteem issues. 

Perhaps he is like a crutch platonic emotional boyfriend to help her get away. What does she want? Is she stating it honestly?


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## LongWalk

turnera said:


> LongWalk, I LOVE the material on NPR. At least they offer opposing views on subjects, unlike other venues. So, we present two opposing views, as well. Oh well.


I am glad public service radio and TV exist. However, I think they are elitist. They are a certainly not representative of ethnic diversity. You don't hear Southern accents. Blacks and other minorities are not well represented either.

When I visit the States I am always shocked by Fox television. Pretty low class.

Sorry for the thread jack, Kolors.


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## turnera

Those of us who are not brainwashed by Fox News call it Faux News.


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## Kolors

It's all good. I stopped watching the big cable news networks a year or so ago. I will watch Headline News on the mornings since it's all just fluff stories.

I really do not know what she wants now. She hasn't mentioned my moving out and neither have I. It didn't come up at MC for the first time this week. She acknowledged that there were things to work on and was excited to talk about our issues due to my apparent ADD and me seeing someone in the next few months about it.

I think she is in a holding pattern where she doesn't know what she wants and could go either way depending on the day. I had it explained to me last night from a female friend that is going thru something similar and it has been two years since her and her husband started to fix their marriage. She is just now getting comfortable with him and believing his changes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Although Fox News has rabies, NPR has all sorts of prejudices. Their support of Obama is naked. Probably almost all of their reporters and producers are pro choice, pro illegal immigration, etc.

I am trying to imagine how Kolors's house sounds. Is the radio or TV on?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Kolors

Really depends. When I am cooking dinner or cleaning house it is typically music from Pandora or Spotify. Once the kids are in bed we watch a little TV. At night we play a radio softly just for some noise.

When I get home today I have to clean the house in a hurry then round up the kids before the sitter comes. It will definitely be music, more than likely 80s pop or something heavy to keep me going.

I just sent the wife flowers to work. A giant arrangement of roses. I sent a card that said happy bday, looking forward to tonight. Love, me. I hope it softens her up today. I hope to just make her smile and forget the bad for a few hours. I really want to just see her smile at me from across the table.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> Really depends. When I am cooking dinner or cleaning house it is typically music from Pandora or Spotify. Once the kids are in bed we watch a little TV. At night we play a radio softly just for some noise.
> 
> When I get home today I have to clean the house in a hurry then round up the kids before the sitter comes. It will definitely be music, more than likely 80s pop or something heavy to keep me going.
> 
> I just sent the wife flowers to work. A giant arrangement of roses. I sent a card that said happy bday, looking forward to tonight. Love, me. I hope it softens her up today. I hope to just make her smile and forget the bad for a few hours. I really want to just see her smile at me from across the table.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



You Charming Ba$tard


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## Kolors

I am trying! If she is receptive to any of it I will be amazed. I plan to put the charm on tonight regardless. I do not plan it to get me anywhere but a smile or touch tells a story of its own.


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## Kolors

Well, I got a thanks for the flowers text and then a bit of witty banter thereafter. It is so strange to be so excited about a single date with a woman that I have been married to for 10 years.

Now to finish cleaning this house. I can really tell that my ADD is getting worse in my old age, I have cleaned every room 3/4 of the way now.


----------



## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> I am trying! If she is receptive to any of it I will be amazed. I plan to put the charm on tonight regardless. I do not plan it to get me anywhere but a smile or touch tells a story of its own.


We would like to see you put a twinkle in her eyes


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## LongWalk

Even if the date is just you fighting the good fight, it may pay in a few months time.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Kolors

Can't say it was a smashing success but it didn't blow up in my face! We had a good time but he is still so uncomfortable because she is afraid that when she lets her guard down I am going to hurt her. I had to keep conversation going to avoid deadly silence all evening. We ended up skipping dinner because he almost fell asleep during the show lol.

I did make some forward looking comments about using the country rental for a vacation home until it sells. I talked about us all staying out there one weekend a month, watching the wildlife, reading books, and ignoring the world. I could see her wheels turning.

I see why couples that have been Married for a while go out in groups, it really helps push conversation.

Anyway, we snuggled a bit last night and she never pushed me away. I felt us holding hands a few times in our sleep and rubbing feet as we woke.

Life isn't great but it could always be worse. I hope it stays at this level where I can openly love her and wait to see if she comes back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sammy3

((sigh)) me too...

~sammy


----------



## happyman64

> I hope it stays at this level where I can openly love her and wait to see if she comes back.


There is nothing wrong with watching. It is ok loving her.

But do not forget to keep the focus on you.

Stop worrying about her platonic friend. He is not a threat to the marriage.

Only you and your wife are........

You can only control your actions so focus there.

HM


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## Kolors

Lol you are on point. I still have plutonic friend issues and I really am trying to drop it. After her saying that she is still scared I feel more like it is just me and her in the relationship.

I am working on me and feel pretty good about me and my contributions to our relationship now. I have an appointment with the good doctor on the 30th about ADD that my counselor says that I need to get in check. I believe she is on to something as I bounce around to things like crazy and always have loose ends to tie up but never get back to. She has had several patients totally change overnight once they started treatment. I would loveto have focus and be less scatterbrained. I was also told a lot of my obsessing over little things could be my ADD.

Now I am just picking tasks, clearly announcing and defining them, an then forcing myself to see them through till the end.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Kolors said:


> Can't say it was a smashing success but it didn't blow up in my face! We had a good time but he is still so uncomfortable because she is afraid that when she lets her guard down I am going to hurt her. I had to keep conversation going to avoid deadly silence all evening. We ended up skipping dinner because he almost fell asleep during the show lol.
> 
> Accepting food is often something that leads to sex. She wanted to avoid building up to that conclusion to the evening. Still she went. Some WAW will not date at all.
> 
> I did make some forward looking comments about using the country rental for a vacation home until it sells. I talked about us all staying out there one weekend a month, watching the wildlife, reading books, and ignoring the world. I could see her wheels turning.
> 
> You had to talk about something.
> 
> I see why couples that have been Married for a while go out in groups, it really helps push conversation.
> 
> Do you suspect that your wife has a lot to say to you but is not willing to open up. You are talkative and she is not.
> 
> Anyway, we snuggled a bit last night and she never pushed me away. I felt us holding hands a few times in our sleep and rubbing feet as we woke.
> 
> If it were hopeless, she wouldn't allow it.
> 
> Life isn't great but it could always be worse. I hope it stays at this level where I can openly love her and wait to see if she comes back.
> 
> Must be terrible feeling that you are on the hook for the promise to leave. Do you think that you will be able to do it without trying to open up a discussion about staying?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kolors

We stopped and picked up some food and sat up and ate it. We were both pretty much worn out since we slept maybe 3 hours the night before due to a teething little boy! I don't think it had to do much with sex.

I really do not think she has a lot to say, she never has really been a talker. I am the talker in the relationship. She talks in groups but one on one she never has much to say. When we hang out with a third person or another couple she talks our ears off. I also think she has said everything that is on her mind that she is willing to say. 

She has never said that it is hopeless between us, only that she doesn't know if she will be able to open up again. One day it was a 20/80 chance, it changes but never feels extremely positive for more than a day or two. She withdraws a bit the day after we have a good day still. We have got along well for a few weeks now and I get to test my bounds a bit each day.

As for leaving without discussion, I am sure there will be one. We have MC on the 30th and it is in our counselors notes. The counselor knows all about me leaving on the 1st if things have not improved. In my opinion, they are improving but at a pace that is incredibly slow due to my wifes trust issues. She is happy that I am getting checked out for the ADD or ADHD (which I scored very high for ADHD this week). I think getting that under control will help me at work and at home. My obsessing over things for hours or days is part of it the ADHD. 

Tomorrow I start the process of getting the other house ready. I am not asking her to come with me to work on it but I am walking out of the door tomorrow with my toolbox, new locks, and cleaning supplies. I should get the painter to come out Monday and give me a price. I could totally earn some man points for painting it myself and making sure the job is finished but I really do ADD out and only complete 3/4 of the work more often than not.


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## Kolors

Speaking of obsessing, shes back on the couch tonight. She still says that she cannot sleep as well on this end of the house because she hears the kids peep and wakes up. She also said the bed is not as comfortable as the couch so she sleeps better in there. 

I woke her up when I got home and tried to get her up and back in bed, since I thought she passed out watching TV, and she said she just wanted to sleep there tonight to catch up on some sleep since she had not slept good in days. She told me that she had been trying really hard to be a good wife for the last few weeks and working on getting along, and trying her best to be comfortable and relax, all she wants is a good night of sleep.

Once she said that I took it as what it is, catching up on sleep. Tomorrow I will offer to buy a new mattress (This one is less than 2 years old, she picked it when she was pregnant.) One will be needed for the other house whether I go it alone or if we make it a vacation house.


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## LongWalk

Tough. Physical contact while sleeping is so important for feeling comfort. A lot of older married couples cannot sleep together because age makes sleeping more difficult. Hope she gets back in bed.

Keep running.


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## Kolors

Yea I understood why she was on the couch after she told me and I left her alone. She said she was so tired and grumpy that he had started yelling at the kids for no reason.

I just wanted her to know that I did not like her attempting to pull away again since she does that often after we have a few good days. 

As for today, I am heading out to the other house to measure for blinds and change the locks. I want to have it all done except furniture and appliances in the next week and a half.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

I Totally fail at not being baited into arguments.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> I Totally fail at not being baited into arguments.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Stop failing.

Stop taking the bait......


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## Kolors

I am much better but not perfect. First time in two weeks or so that she got me. This time I mentioned that it was cold at the rental house that I am cleaning up and she made a comment about what I was going to do for heat out there. I told her I wasn't too worried about it, she was going to change her mind before January, or something to that effect. 

She acted like she had not even considered the option and I acted like an ass over it then blah blah cry cry, hey look its 10:30 lets go to bed.

I always stick to my guns of things will not get better if you do not try, I am sorry you are scared of being hurt and that I will go back on what I say but that is where faith comes in, and admit it or not, things have changed around here and they are permanent changes.

She always sticks to, we have nothing in common anymore, I never get any sleep so I am always angsty, you didn't help enough four years ago so what you do not doesn't matter, and how she hates talking to me because of (insert a new reason). 

Then it always calms down, we talk normal for a while, I pick an issue and win a very weak battle in a long drawn out war. Tonight, she put the rings back on and is back in the bed. I told her that I am just tired of her not taking my feelings into account when she does stuff. When she provokes me she should expect me to say something, not just continue to take it forever. Granted, 99% of the time I will not say anything but I still have a point where I have to stop the BS that we are creating. I specifically pointed out the rings and told her that she is still married and she should act like it. When she gets papers she can give me the rings back, until then we are married and its time to act like it. 

I just get tired of being pushed. She did admit that she has not taken my feelings into account for anything that she has done in three months, which is the reason that we keep end up with these discussions. I conceded that I deserved some of it and was willing to take some abuse as I had earned it. I did however tell her that we are too short on time to play games so we need to cut it out or stop putting a date on our relationship.

I am not sure if she meant it or just said it but she pretty much said that she is willing to stay but she is not willing to put out much effort since I have failed in the past. I told her that time is all that I am looking for. On a long enough timeline she can see that the changes are real and that she is my focus now, not my job or hobbies.

Anyhow, lucky me I have my first full day off in 3 weeks. Time to enjoy it.


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## LongWalk

Good. You stood up for yourself.

It sounds like you don't have to move, but you are confident that this will stick. Get the property ready anyway. You need to rent it out in any case. Maybe you can raise the rent?

If she has trouble sleeping, give her massage. Even just face feels fantastic


----------



## just got it 55

LW is exactly correct Stand up for yourself and your marriage

Good Post Kolors

Stay Positive

Play to win


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## turnera

Kolors said:


> I told her I wasn't too worried about it, she was going to change her mind before January, or something to that effect.
> 
> I just get tired of being pushed.


Maybe she does, too.


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## Kolors

I have been leaving her alone about it. In just can't understand that if she's not in a hurry to move on or to see other people then what is the hurry? If we didn't have kids this would be easy but I don't want to screw up everyone else's happiness because she is having a rough patch that she isn't sure she will get over. I told her if she would just stop being so hard for a bit and let life happen it will get better or we will both agree that it is dead and go in peace. Right now she tries as hard as she can to deny me any sense of peace or accomplishment then calls me crazy when I being it up.

Going back to the couch the other night, telling me why beforehand would avoid a discussion. Passing out before I get home 20 minutes after we talked and then saying "I just don't want to" is not OK. It is back sliding and it sucks. Of course we won't get along or progress of she continues to act like I no longer matter in this world.

I get it, I did the same thing years ago, I'll take my punishment but there is ok need to rub my nose in it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I don't think she is even aware of how you're taking things; she doesn't waste time thinking about how you feel when she does ABC or says XYZ. What you perceive as rubbing your nose in it is probably just her being herself.


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## Kolors

She is aware of how I take things and you are really close when you say she doesn't waste time thinking about it. She still does not feel like she owes it to me to take my feelings into consideration when she does anything. Those were pretty much her words. I told her things will never improve, with me here or me living without my family, if she continues to do things without a care of how it effects those around her. The decisions she makes hurt more than just me and she doesn't see that or care about that.


And she isn't being herself. For over a decade she has been the same person, she is being a new person that is just crappy towards everything. Things that have been the norm for as long as we have known each other are being tossed out the window.

And rubbing my face in it is spot on. She takes off her rings and tells me that I cant be mad, I used to do it. She doesn't answer a text and tells me that sometimes it would take me hours to answer texts in meetings. She sleeps on the couch and reminds me of nights I would stay up until 3AM doing lord knows what around the house. I wanted to rent a movie and grab some blankets and hang on the couch the other night, she told me she wanted to do that two years ago but I couldn't be bothered to stop and sit. Yes, everything she does now seems like she is rubbing my nose in my old crap.


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## Kolors

Also, keep your fingers crossed for a good call back from a nurse. My counselor had mentioned looking into some meds like Concerta for ADHD since she feels like that is the root of most of my issues and I scored like 14/16 on an ADHD test. My family doctor is closed until January, the earliest appointment I can get with the psychologist is the 30th of this month. I just spoke at length with the nurse at the psych office and she is going to try to talk him into calling in a prescription for me to try until the 30th. 

I have heard that it is day and night when you finally get on a program for some people. I really need this to happen today. My focus is so jacked up currently.


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## Kolors

Bah the doc fell through since he was booked solid this week and away next week. I called about 20 different places today and no one was available until mid January. I am just a mess lately and it keeps getting worse the closer move day gets. I just cannot focus, not on me, or work, or getting that house finished. Maybe I am just having a mini breakdown that will pass in a few days but man i just feel empty and afraid of everything. 

The only things I can do at the other house now involve the expenditure of a bunch of money that we could use in savings, not being blown on a relationship experiment. 

What difference is separating now or doing it in three or four months after she's had several therapy sessions and I have got my ADHD under control? 

Want to trying one last time, even if it's just to prove me wrong, so impossible?

I am at the lowest point that I can ever recall being. I can't tell her that or even let on. I'm in a real "climb in a hole and die" kinda mental place. And no, it's just a figure of speech before anyone gets the wrong idea. I guess I am just having a rough day and I only feel like it is going to get worse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Stop crying. Get out of the funk.

Change your thoughts to something positive.

Your first day and off and you are going to ruin it.

Take the kids to the park or something that will make them laugh and be happy.

And savor it.

HM

PS
Stop worrying about the 2nd place and spending any $$$ on it right now.


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## Kolors

Yea it got better one I got the daughter from school and we went to the mall for cookies.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> Yea it got better one I got the daughter from school and we went to the mall for cookies.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thatta boy!


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## Kolors

Life is just strange. It has been freezing here for the last few weeks. Today however it is nothing short of beautiful outside. I am relaxing at a park By the river, watching my daughter play, and reading a book. As long as the wind doesn't blow you would swear it's a beautiful spring day.

My wife came down with the flu and strep throat yesterday. Lucky for her it was my night off work so I got everybody fed, put her in bed, and take care of the kids. It was good to be able to take care of everyone. Once everyone was settled in I got to spend the next hour and a half running around town frantically searching for a pair of Christmas socks for a four-year-old girl. This would be a task that I would fail at. When I finally got home I got our daughter in bed and then turned my attention to the wife. She had 101° fever and was just generally miserable. I dosed her up with the nyquil, got her some drinks, and Rubbed her face and neck down with cold towels until she finally cooled off. After that I just hung out and rubbed her back and we watched a little TV until she laid down to sleep. Luckily, the kids slept through the night and everybody got a full night sleep for the first time in weeks.

This morning she called in sick for the first time in forever. I got both kids ready and we were on our way out the door but she asked if I could come back home with breakfast before I went to work. A few nights earlier I had asked her to test me a few times just to see if I had changed. Several times she has asked me to run and grab things before work and I told her I didn't have the time. I was not sure if this was one of those tests or not but there was no way this woman was not going to have breakfast before I went in to work. I Hauled ass from our house headed to drop the kids off only to realize after I got down the road that my wallet was still sitting at home. I doubled back, grab the wallet, hit the daycare to drop off the son, dropped my daughter off at school, picked up breakfast, ran it home to the wife, and made it to work in less than 45 minutes. As I was walking back out from dropping off her food I yelled "love you, bye" like I had for 12 years out if habit. Unbelievably, she yelled it back. I won't make a big deal out of it or anything, it was more than likely just instinct.

I saw her today on my break and she seemed more approachable than normal. We talked on the phone for 10 or 15 minutes on her way home from the doctor. It has been three months since we've been able to have a decent conversation over the phone. Now I just wish she could be sick for a few days and let me take care of her since that is one of the things that she complained that I never did before. 

Anyhow, off to work. We have three big parties tonight and a club member function. I hope to get sent home early so I can keep the kids but I still need to put money in the bank. I will just keep plugging along, working my butt off, and waiting for it to pay off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Keep working. Stay positive.

It will pay off.

HM


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## JohnC_depressed

Man you have tried so hard from what I can see and she seems to have checked out. She still seems to wants you to leave but is pretty happy with you taking care of her and doing all the nice little things you have done over the last several months. What a catch 22. Like I said before - F' her. Probably once you do she will realize what a mistake she made and want back in. By then you may have made peace with this seperation and not want her back. The big dillema of course is children. I guess you should keep trying as long as you are able. Hope it works out.


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## JohnC_depressed

K you remind me of a prizefighter that just will not go down. About 30 years ago Ray Leonard was losing a fight to Tommy Hearns and his trainer Angelo Dundee told him"Your blowing it kid, your blowing it". Leonard dug deep and fought through the pain and eventually won the fight. Other times the trainer has to step in and say you have had enough kid and stop the fight. You are somewhere in the middle of this. I kind of think I might be the latter trainer in your situation, but give you one more round. I really hope you can pull it out.


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## just got it 55

happyman64 said:


> Keep working. Stay positive.
> 
> It will pay off.
> 
> HM


Yes Kolors Stay Positive

Play to win


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## just got it 55

Kolors: I hope your wife see's what your family has with you in it as support doing all you can in the face of extreme hardship and disadvantage.

She must see that you will never give up or give in to failure
More importantly I hope you see it

Your efforts will not go unrewarded

Your strength is astounding

Proud of your progress

Stay Positive 

Happy people want to be with happy people

Do what makes you happy

55


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## Tron

K,

Just recovering from the damn flu right now. Started last Wednesday for me. Just so you know what to look forward to...2 days solid laid up in bed and then another 3 days mildly foggy, achy, coughing and feeling downright crappy.

Yeah, I guarantee she wants you to take care of her.

And stay away from her! 

You don't want this.


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## Kolors

No I really do not want it. She is starting to feel a bit better thanks to Tami-flu and some Amoxicillin. She was feeling good enough to get the kids in bed tonight and hang out a bit when I got home.

Rather than just sit around I cleaned house a bit. Every time she gets sick the house falls apart since she has historically done most all of the domestic duties. I've made sure to keep up the house work, the laundry, and the kids each time I am home. I wish I had done this more often before we got to this point, it really is not that hard to chip in and it makes her life so much easier.

I have tomorrow night off and it is our daughters 5th Bday. We are going to bake cupcakes tomorrow and have a little party here once my wife gets off work. Her big party is this Sunday with all of her friends.

Time to relax for a few then hit the sack. I hope everyone has a blessed day tomorrow.


----------



## turnera

Kolors said:


> I wish I had done this more often before we got to this point,* it really is not that hard to chip in* and it makes her life so much easier.


OY! From your fingertips to every man's eyes out there!


----------



## Kolors

Well it's true. If this ever gets worked out between us I am writing a what no to do in marriage book for guys to read before they slide that ring on lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kolors

So, I do a ton of writing. I write in a journal, I write on the internet, and I write little letters to my wife. I tend to write her every few weeks or so when there are things that I cannot verbalize correctly or do not want to end up having to explain as I go. 

The last few times we have had relationship discussions, which are becoming less and less frequent, she has wanted to know just what I want. I cannot tell if she really wants to see my vision of fixing things since she does not really have one, or if she just wants to tear apart my ideas as I give them to her in order to prove me wrong.

Anyhow, I have thought about writing out my vision for us. I do not mean a simple, I change, you change, we get happy, bam marriage saved. I mean a sort of lose timeline of what I would like if we could stay together. It could be something to hold me to if I started to stray off course or to show me later that I did not keep to my word. Some of these things would be deal breakers to me as well but there are really only two or three things that I am truly unhappy about and I think they fix themselves as we get healthy.

To me, she seems to still think that I expect a magical transformation over night. This causes her stress since she is so reluctant to acknowledge changes or repair. It causes me stress because I know this is a long process and I am in no hurry , I just want to give it one change to bloom again.

I may do a rough write of it and slap it up here for advice so it doesn't sound needy or whiny. I would like to have it finished and ready to give her by Monday. That way she has a week to think about it before our counseling session. I would even take a copy with me in my journal to discuss at MC.

I hope to accomplish a few things with the letter.
#1 Change the separation date to either a month or two down the road (Since we are both starting new meds and she will not have her 2nd IC appt until January).

#2 Let her know, in writing so there is no argument later, that I do not expect her to magically check back in over night. I expect her to wait a bit now that we have calmed down, see the changes in me and her, and evaluate if the new relationship is capable of fostering a loving marriage again.

#3 Lay down some expectations for myself and for her. For me it is all keeping to changes and working on my personal issues. For her it is remembering who she is and encouraging her to relax more as I take much more responsibility around here.

#4 Have something that I can refer to as often as needed to keep my focus if she agrees to it. I still need reminders in life of what I need to accomplish. Maybe the ADHD meds will help that when I see the doc on the 30th. I need to look back and make sure I am staying true to what I said.

What do you guys (and gals) think? If she likes it, or even partially agrees to it then we have somewhere to work from.


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## happyman64

IMO you are jumping the gun.

And your letter with your 1-4 will make your wife feel pressured.

Slow down. You are trying to shove a few months of hardwork into a short timeline.

Let's see what the others think.

Again I think your letter will amp up the pressure on your wife.

Neither of you need this right now.

Enjoy the holidays Kolors. Focus on you. Not "us" but you.

HM


----------



## Troubledtimes

Don't give her any letters talking about the future. Focus on and enjoy the present


----------



## Kolors

So when asked what I think we should do I should just go with "Let's just live life and see where it takes us, no need to tie ourselves down to things since we are both constantly changing."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Kolors said:


> #2 Let her know, in writing so there is no argument later, that I do not expect her to magically check back in over night. I expect her to wait a bit now that we have calmed down, see the changes in me and her, and evaluate if the new relationship is capable of fostering a loving marriage again.


Which one of you checked out in the first place? Why are YOU asking HER to consider checking back in?

Didn't you read NMMNG?


----------



## turnera

Kolors said:


> So when asked what I think we should do I should just go with "Let's just live life and see where it takes us, no need to tie ourselves down to things since we are both constantly changing and since I don't know if I will still be here for long if I don't have a committed wife."


Fixed it for you.


----------



## Kolors

From what I was told she felt like I checked out first so she decided to go full speed and check out herself. I never felt as if I had checked out, I was just not in a very good place with myself.

I am asking her to check back in because we are stalled out on her feelings. She doesn't think I can change things about me that she doesn't like and stay active in the relationship like I have need for the last three months since this started. I've told her, wait another six months and you'll see me still working my ass off for our marriage and family, I know what this means to me, you will not get that chance to see the changes if we are leading separate lives.

The separation date is causing so much stress. I really think that as long as we are not going backwards then it is unnecessary. If we are working and it never gets better then of course we should split. It didn't work when it was just her trying to save us and it doesn't with with just me trying to save us.

Also, good edit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

I NMMNG a few months ago an it didn't really fit my thinking at the time. Maybe I should go read it again since I have changed quite a
Bit mentally in the last few months.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

MMSLP may help, if that one didn't. What about HNHN? That would be a good one for BOTH of you to be going through, and then doing the questionnaires.


----------



## Kolors

I've read HNHN, three months ago. We were given it by the preacher that married us but we never read through it. I would like for her to read that one as well.

I am reading MMSLP right now. It is quite relevant to my life. I was a total alpha male for most of my life until I got married and took a desk job. Even when the two of us played online games with out friends I was the ring leader of that group. Since about 2008 my alpha stock has plummeted. What is worse is that my beta qualities became more "third child" than "caring homebody".

I've just started the MAP section. Being more of a leader and being trusted to anchor the family is what I am workin on now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Oh snap, job offer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

You got called back by a firm that interviewed previously?

Do you feel that your wife is sad almost all the time? Does she feel that when you disappear her sadness will also vanish?


----------



## JohnC_depressed

Kolors said:


> Oh snap, job offer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For you? Awesome. K do not send her that letter. Move out as planned; however, prepare a bunch of sealed notes for your kids that they should open on the days you are not at home. Your daughter is 5 right?? If she can read a little keep them simple:

Thursday Jan 2 - "Dad loves you" - Smiley face picture
Friday Jan 3 - "How R You" - Another picture
etc... etc... - get the idea?

Reservists that have to deploy for a year or so typically do this or make videos on the ipad or computer that their kids should watch each week of dad saying hello, how is school, so on and so forth. Understand??


----------



## turnera

OMG, you just reminded me of the most magical event in my childhood. I went on a trip for a week with my friend and her family, camping in Colorado. I think I was 12. We ate spam every meal. No, that wasn't the magical event, lol. My mom prepared a bag for me. In it were 7 wrapped gifts for me. I was told I could open one each day. In them were little gifts, cheap ones, like a paddle ball with the rubber ball attached. It wasn't the items that mattered. It was that my mom thought ahead, thought of ME, and gave me something just for me. It was magical.


----------



## just got it 55

JohnC_depressed said:


> For you? Awesome. K do not send her that letter. Move out as planned; however, prepare a bunch of sealed notes for your kids that they should open on the days you are not at home. Your daughter is 5 right?? If she can read a little keep them simple:
> 
> Thursday Jan 2 - "Dad loves you" - Smiley face picture
> Friday Jan 3 - "How R You" - Another picture
> etc... etc... - get the idea?
> 
> Reservists that have to deploy for a year or so typically do this or make videos on the ipad or computer that their kids should watch each week of dad saying hello, how is school, so on and so forth. Understand??


Nice touch JC


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## just got it 55

Kolors: I would give second thoughts about committing your thoughts to paper.

Your situation is fluid and as you have described your wife’s emotions can turn in an instant.

Even a gifted writer can put down thoughts that are open to misinterpretation and be misunderstood.

Continue with your actions and deeds of service.

And for God sakes don’t panic as the separation date draws closer. I could almost feel it in one of your last posts.
Stay positive

Love your child

Love your life

Hope that Job thing works out

Play to win

55
.


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## LongWalk

JohnC_depressed said:


> For you? Awesome. K do not send her that letter. Move out as planned; however, prepare a bunch of sealed notes for your kids that they should open on the days you are not at home. Your daughter is 5 right?? If she can read a little keep them simple:
> 
> Thursday Jan 2 - "Dad loves you" - Smiley face picture
> Friday Jan 3 - "How R You" - Another picture
> etc... etc... - get the idea?
> 
> *Reservists* that have to deploy for a year or so typically do this or make videos on the ipad or computer that their kids should watch each week of dad saying hello, how is school, so on and so forth. Understand??


Kolors is going to active duty in the military?


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## Kolors

Yep for me. It is with a company that I worked for maybe 12 years ago. They are reopening here and asked me to come help manage their facility. It was the best paying restaurant management job I had ever seen. 

No letters are being written or given. 

I haven't felt like she was sad all the time but I've felt like there was something not right with her off and on since the first kid was born. I thought she was just tired and moody and it would pass once the kids were both sleeping through the night every night and letting us sleep in past 5 am a few days a week. No idea if she thinks getting rid of me will fix all of her problems. She just felt like since she was doing everything herself, why have me around for just a paycheck. Remember, she thought I gave up a few years ago to the point where she debated about whether I was cheating in her or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

And no, I'm barely on active culinary duty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JohnC_depressed

LongWalk said:


> Kolors is going to active duty in the military?


No I don't think so, I am only relating my experience here - sorry for the confusion but its a little advice given for parents going away for a bit on deployment and it seems K is going to have to do something a bit similar in the near future. It really helps.


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## JohnC_depressed

Kolors said:


> And no, I'm barely on active culinary duty.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LMAO. If she thinks getting rid of you will fix her problems it iwill turn into the exact opposite. I'll bet you a beer once you are gone she realizes oh sh*t this is hard without him around now what am I going to do I need him.


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## Kolors

I can imagine it helps. When my brother and sister were deployed they sent a lot of letters home to their kids. I'll be like 10 miles away and still picking my kids up from school each day.

This evening has been strangely normal. Like, talked on the phone, hung out with the kids, and no awkward silence. Hell, she told me all about her day and finally told me a bit about her new co-workers. She also seemed really supportive of me taking this new job, even if it means me training in another state for a few weeks. 

Things are almost getting to be too normal around here. Also, she's had three full nights of sleep. Maybe there is something to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> I can imagine it helps. When my brother and sister were deployed they sent a lot of letters home to their kids. I'll be like 10 miles away and still picking my kids up from school each day.
> 
> This evening has been strangely normal. Like, talked on the phone, hung out with the kids, and no awkward silence. Hell, she told me all about her day and finally told me a bit about her new co-workers. She also seemed really supportive of me taking this new job, even if it means me training in another state for a few weeks.
> 
> Things are almost getting to be too normal around here. Also, she's had three full nights of sleep. Maybe there is something to it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kolors: Very few things give you perspective like good night’s sleep

It clears your mind of the relentless turmoil.

This turmoil is so exhausting on so many levels.

Helps you think clearly.

It’s a great sign that your wife can accomplish this.

How well are you sleeping?

And the 2 weeks away for training may be all the separation your wife needs.

Play to win Young brother

55


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## Kolors

I sleep like a champ when she is in the bed. I hit the sack and I am out maybe 20 minutes later for the whole night. If she is on the couch, I hit the sack at 10 and lay here awake until 1AM.


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## happyman64

> Things are almost getting to be too normal around here. Also, she's had three full nights of sleep. Maybe there is something to it.


All without a letter written or discussed.

Stop obsessing over her and your marriage.

Focus on you. A job. The kids. Give her space.

Let her want to come back to you.

You both will get a lot more sleep that way.


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## Kolors

Yep all without doing much of anything other than being me and staying busy.

From what my therapist says the obsessing sounds like it is part of my ADHD and should pass as I work with someone on it and take meds for a bit. 

If it wasn't her and our marriage that I am obsessing over it would just be something else. I tend to find something and throw everything that I have at it until it is 95% finished. I work my butt off until I can see the light at the end of the tunnel and then I move on to something else before I get to the light.

We actually sat in bed and talked about the ADHD tonight. I was talking about how I was working on focusing on one project at a time and making sure it was 100% finished before I started a new one (something that has pissed her off for years!). I have been told that with therapy for it and changing some habits it can become a think of the past. I told my wife I would love to have the same sense of focus that "normal" people do and that I am excited to finally have some help coming to work on it. She seemed relieved to hear me say that. She seems supportive and wants to see how it all works out.

She also seems to be good with my job offer from today. Granted I will be out of the house until the kids are asleep 3 nights a week but it should be great money and it is what I love. I plan to at least do it for the next three semesters while I wrap up my degree. I plan to call them back tomorrow and set up a meeting to discuss money and when I need to start my training. We both agreed that Mid January would be best so we could see how I react to the new meds before I start training. 

Some days life is beautiful.


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## Kolors

Well, it appears that I am starting to mellow out finally. I finally came to a realization, through a conversation with a very old friend, that it's passion that is missing from my life. I'm not speaking up specifically sex or physical things, I'm just talking about being passionate about anything. Is has led to some really awkward conversations but all and all I can kind of see where my life is heading now. I'm starting to see that if I define myself as is just being a married guy with kids that hangs out and does married people things then I'm truly limiting my own passions. I enjoy people and most people really enjoy me as well. If the one person (two actually, just talked to an ex that still hates me) that doesn't like me is my wife then I have to fix it or move on. I can't do anything else for her, it is all her choices.

I have a second really big job opportunity that is going to be presented after the New Years. It is less pay than the first one but an amazing job. I've also reconnected with several old friends that I really missed talking to as well as cleared up some old issues with one or two people that I had carried around for years.

The painter starts Tuesday at the other house. I have the rugs and furniture picked out as well.

Life isn't great but it's better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> Life isn't great but it's better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The best thing God ever made is another day

Stay positive

Play to win

55


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## LongWalk

> I finally came to a realization, through a conversation with a very old friend, that it's passion that is missing from my life. I'm not speaking up specifically sex or physical things, I'm just talking about being passionate about anything. Is has led to some really awkward conversations but all and all I can kind of see where my life is heading now. I'm starting to see that if I define myself as is just being a married guy with kids that hangs out and does married people things then I'm truly limiting my own passions. I enjoy people and most people really enjoy me as well. If the one person (two actually, just talked to an ex that still hates me) that doesn't like me is my wife then I have to fix it or move on. I can't do anything else for her, it is all her choices.


I think your wife may see this, too. And this puts pressure on her to be a person who has passion as well. She is having trouble doing it. Partly or largely she blames you. And you even admit your failings. That is over now.

Just keep going on this track and your wife will see the train departing. Perhaps your wife is very beautiful but even if she is, in her current depressed state she is not going to find a really together guy. The portrait you paint is not of a person who is going to start smiling once you are gone.


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## Kolors

I'm just working on being happy. I have really came far recently. The more work that happens at the new place the more accepting I become.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> I'm just working on being happy. I have really came far recently. The more work that happens at the new place the more accepting I become.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Accepting is ok. What you need to do is embrace the change.

Get it in your head that if you have to move out that you will be happy about it. That you will embrace the situation.

That you will make the best situation out of this event in your life.

That you will continue to be the best man, father and coparent you can be.

That you will continue to focus on your ADHD and get it to a manageable condition.

Many a man has had to separate. But it is the man who embraces the situation that comes to two conclusions.

A. They love themselves and they can only control their own actions.
B. They find themselves and realize it is not their spouse that can make them happy but that happiness truly comes from within.

While I am big advocate of reconciliation it takes two people that love each other, respect each other and are willing to work hard that can have a successful reconciliation.

So keep the focus on you. It does not matter if you accept the situation or not.

But I can assure you that if you embrace the situation with the goal of becoming the best man you can be to yourself then all pieces of your life will come together........

HM


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## LongWalk

Is HappyMan as good as your IC or MC?

If you do have to move, don't make a big deal about it. The fact that you take it calmly will make a big impression on her, regardless of whether she loves you. But it's not poker game. Living with her is not the winner's pot. She won't have sex because she fears it will make her the loser. She may have moment of clarity and change this position. 

Positions...in bed... Funny to think that sometimes they have meaning in a relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Better than my IC. My MC is awesome, I wish she was my IC.

I think that I am finally OK with it. I have a lot of stuff I need to catch up on anyway. I am starting to see the negative in her all the time since she never lets the positive out. I doubt there will be any real reconciliation in the future. 

With my new career I will have something to throw myself into. I will man up and get the kids when I can but she will get what she wants, to be a single mom with all the fun it brings with it. I stopped working around here last week and the place is a wreck. I am not sure if she noticed how much different it becomes when I am not doing anything. Can't say now that I really care.

I am really starting to get numb to the whole situation. I love the woman, and I would stay forever as long as she said she was working on the relationship, but I think she is right. Until she decides what she wants, things will never change. 

She doesn't realize that I will have to move on for my sanity. I talked to most all of the women that I seriously dated in the last week. They all noted that I moved on so fast. Like, one day we were together, then we split, then I was off being myself again.

So in other news, I picked out the rugs and furniture. I plan to order them after our MC appointment next Monday if things go south. Either way I plan to make it a home away from home if we do not split and will still spend the money. This way I can still get away if needed in the future and it will make it look lived in for when I go to sell it.

I am hunting Craigslist for appliances after Xmas. I am sure several people in our area will update and want to unload their old stuff.

Hope everyone is having a great weekend, I am off to my daughters 5th bday party!


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## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> Better than my IC. My MC is awesome, I wish she was my IC.
> 
> I think that I am finally OK with it. I have a lot of stuff I need to catch up on anyway. I am starting to see the negative in her all the time since she never lets the positive out. I doubt there will be any real reconciliation in the future.
> 
> With my new career I will have something to throw myself into. I will man up and get the kids when I can but she will get what she wants, to be a single mom with all the fun it brings with it. I stopped working around here last week and the place is a wreck. I am not sure if she noticed how much different it becomes when I am not doing anything. Can't say now that I really care.
> 
> I am really starting to get numb to the whole situation. I love the woman, and I would stay forever as long as she said she was working on the relationship, but I think she is right. Until she decides what she wants, things will never change.
> 
> She doesn't realize that I will have to move on for my sanity. I talked to most all of the women that I seriously dated in the last week. They all noted that I moved on so fast. Like, one day we were together, then we split, then I was off being myself again.
> 
> So in other news, I picked out the rugs and furniture. I plan to order them after our MC appointment next Monday if things go south. Either way I plan to make it a home away from home if we do not split and will still spend the money. This way I can still get away if needed in the future and it will make it look lived in for when I go to sell it.
> 
> I am hunting Craigslist for appliances after Xmas. I am sure several people in our area will update and want to unload their old stuff.
> 
> Hope everyone is having a great weekend, I am off to my daughters 5th bday party!


Sounds like YOU made a decision

Interesting development

55


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## Kolors

Not yet but I am leaning. I've gone too long feeling like crap and dying for a relationship. I'm staying on task so I do not get caught with my pants down. Let's see how this week and MC next Monday.

For once in this mess I have cards up my sleeve and a game plan.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

I keep reading this and you are right 55. There are of course things that have been omitted in this thread over the last few months that have things where they are.

I finally explained passion to my wife last week and how I cannot be in a relationship without it. Once again, not just sex but passion for life and living. I told her that if she is debating at all then she needs to weigh that in. I will not sit in a passionless life forever. I did say that I understand where we are and it's effect on passion but we need to start moving on one way or the other.

I've seen no change out of her so I can only assume she's made the choice for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

> I've seen no change out of her so I can only *assume* she's made the choice for me.


"When you assume it makes an ass out of u and me."

Take it from a guy who has been with same girl for 29 years.

Never assume anything. 

Have clear conversation with her. Stop letting her off the hook when she gives you no answers about passion.

And assume nothing of her action though they might speak volumes about her.

Every once in a while when Mrs Happy was not talking to me and her actions were lousy I would force her to sit down and have a face to face with me.

But I did something different the last few times.

I told her I was speaking to her as her dearest, longtime friend not her husband.

I maintained eye contact. She spilled the beans and told me everything through tears about what was bothering her about me ( my health), my behavior (anger issues) and her fears.

I had got out my gripes but not in a list. I expressed them as concern for her.

But the key part was that I listened to her. Repeated her issues and made a pact together on what we both needed to do to be happier together.

And since I was not listening to her as her husband she knew there would be no judging of her, no silent treatment, no anger or animosity towards her.

Try it Kolors.

But do not settle for assumptions based on her actions. You deserve better so get better.

HM


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## Kolors

Working on it. I have plans for pretty much everything right now. Going to get thru Xmas and MC before we talk about anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Also, that is a nice approach. Well played sir.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Yep, everything is a fight. She's making it up for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JohnC_depressed

Kolors said:


> Yep, everything is a fight. She's making it up for me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


K I am going to give you a New Years resolution: You will stop worrying about her f'd up mind and make yourself whole again. For sh*ts and giggles ask her if she has a New Years resolution just to gauge her response - (do this over a bottle of Pierrier Jouet or some other adult beverage)


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## LongWalk

You have made it clear to her on more than one occassion that you want to save your relationship, to commit more than ever before. She has told you that you have improved but she cannot believe it will last. She will not let you back into her life, only to discover that you deceived her.

This line of reasoning suggests that once she were to agree to let down her guard, she could love you again. Those feelings are there but exist in some malnourished state and she is trying to stifle them. My feeling about accepting another emotionally is that there is a switch within us: you can flick it on. Does a decision to forgive or restore guarantee that the current will flow? No, there are factors: maybe the chemistry is dead; maybe antipathy is greater than anything else. But it is possible to try.

Your suggestion has been to take it one day at a time. Why would one day at a time lead to 18 years of deception? Wouldn't she figure out things sooner?

WAW on TAM sometimes write about the need for time, sometimes months, to restore emotional life. RoadScholar's wife cheated on him and was in false R for 5 months. He got sick of the sexless wait and told her he would divorce. They started having sex again. She still refuses to give him a timeline, but at the very least apologizes, cries, etc. They have something to work with.

But your wife cannot or will not explain what she really wants. She has not decided anything yet or she is concealing her decision. If she has decided but refuses to share that information with you, that is profoundly dishonest and hurtful.

If is simply unable to figure out her own mind, then three things wil change the situation: your disappearance, divorce papers, your post separation behavior.

Your description of how you first met and her early feelings for you give the impression that because you were a people person, pretty alpha and fun to be with, you were her savior. You can never regain that position again. For some lonely years she felt that she was the person bearing the burden. The reality is that two persons with more life experience need to be more realistic. Is she level-headed now?


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## Kolors

Oh I am good with me. I know what I have going on and what I plan on doing. I really dont think she has a new years resolution, she never has before. She does not believe in making them.

Yes, reasoning leads one to believe that if she just stopped for a bit things could be fixed and yes, she is forcing that wall to stand.

All she can say she wants it time and space so she is about to get it. I am working my ass off to make sure I can go in a week so it won't be mid January and her making comments about how she knew I wouldn't leave.

Today we had an issue where she texted to see what I thought about her going out at 8 with a friend. I sent her a message back to have fun, I had made up my mind months ago to not try to get in her way. A few minutes later I remembered all the stuff that we had going on and needed to do so I sent her a message back to see if she could do it Thursday or Friday night instead. I only got a response that her friend could only go tonight.

Seriously, the house is a mess still and her family is coming tomorrow, there are no groceries, she has yet to buy her family presents, I am sick, she is sick, the kids are sick, and we were supposed to go to see Santa with the kids tonight. This does not even factor in all the stuff that I had to do today that was pushed back due to the day care being closed and me dealing with sick kids. I was supposed to be out at the other house tonight getting some work finished for the painter and dropping off the supplies and the heaters.

Anyhow, she walked in the door telling her friend that she would call her in an hour or so and let her know when they were meeting. I can't remember what was said or who said what but we went at it. Not screaming but I told her that I had enough of it. She could have it the way she wanted it and I was leaving. I really can't stand the thought of fighting anymore. She can't discuss anything without considering it a fight. She got extra mad that I was leaving and we half ass yelled and talked as we got the kids ready to go do all the stuff we needed to get finished. 

She had thought she would get in, get everything done, and be out by 8. We only managed to go to santa, get diapers, run by one store, and eat dinner by 10:00 pm. After the kids were down I stopped in the den and told her that this is what I meant, there was too much to be done for either of us to be out messing around with our friends. She said something about she could be out instead of just sitting on the couch and I told her to go ahead and go but she didnt. I came to my own room and relaxed. She started coughing so hard she puked for the second time today, she really needed to be out.

So yea, I really do not see how anything short of being apart can fix it anymore. She sees no positives and I need more out of my life than this. Hopefully me spending 3 or so weeks out of state training next month does something for her. I know being around here won't. I just find it so strange that once we get it out of our system things are totally cool around here. We talked and had a good time at dinner and while shopping. She is in our bed now asleep, still wearing rings.

I know the relationship isn't totally dead but without a starting point it may as well be. I am finally accepting that. I do not want to be alone or barely see my kids but noone can live happily like this.


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## LongWalk

That was a regular normal day in an unhappy marriage. On the one hand you're supposed to be letting go so that she can enjoy the social life that affords her such relief from the misery of your relationship and responsibiliities, but 23 Dec is so close to Christmas that the kids stuff, etc. is obviously more important. Guess this was another means of escalating the tension, i.e., making you want to chuck in the towel.

Could be that one of the reasons she dying to see her friends is to complain about her life and the torture of waiting for separation. 

Once you are out and gone one of the paradoxes will be that she is going to be unhappy because her freedom is going to disappear even more, at least in the short term. So, her resentment is going to grow even more if seeing friends and dating other men are her desire.


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## Kolors

That's the thing, she doesn't talk to these friends about us because many of them are mutual and she doesn't want to feel judged. 

Ugh think I have the flu now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Kolors

Can I make a suggestion.

Ignore your wife when she wants to go out.

Sure the house is a mess.
Yes you have company coming.
Yes she and the kids are sick.

Let her do what she wants. Do not control her. Do not guide her on the right thing to do.

Let her learn from her mistakes.

You cannot do it for her.

It is all about consequences. She is a big girl. Let her make those decisions and then watch.

HM


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## just got it 55

LongWalk said:


> That was a regular normal day in an unhappy marriage. On the one hand you're supposed to be letting go so that she can enjoy the social life that affords her such relief from the misery of your relationship and responsibiliities, *but 23 Dec is so close to Christmas that the kids stuff, etc. is obviously more important. Guess this was another means of escalating the tension, i.e., making you want to chuck in the towel.*
> Could be that one of the reasons she dying to see her friends is to complain about her life and the torture of waiting for separation.
> 
> Once you are out and gone one of the paradoxes will be that she is going to be unhappy because her freedom is going to disappear even more, at least in the short term. So, her resentment is going to grow even more if seeing friends and dating other men are her desire.


It certainly seems thats what she is pushing for

Give her a taste

Play to win

Now you have to define victory

Stay positive

55


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## LongWalk

Put your love for her into storage, locked away inside yourself, and march forward. Once you separate and you still do your best, she will either come round or she won't. Your love for her, unsupported by physical and emotional affection, will either survive or wither. She knows this, too.

Right now she is still cake eating, imagining she doesn't have to make a decision.

I think I once asked HappyMan to compare your wife and LostLove's. He said it was an interesting question but did he ever answer.

One thing about dysfunctional people (and I am one), we are attracted to other dysfunctional people. That is why people often affair down. You have let your wife down by your own account. To what degree you have been negatively shaped by her own problems is not clear. Probably cost a lot of time in IC to figure it out. What was job unhappiness, what was your father's fault, your wife's, etc. But now at this point, your wife is looking for emotional connection outside of your marriage, but not to strong healthy people. If she had a guy lined up to replace you who was pretty okay, that would be one thing.

I suspect she is going to date people who will not develop into healthy LTPs. Of course that is my guess.

Sex won't have sex with you. Is that also because she saving herself for exciting true love or deep passion? Having sex you would spoil that treat she waiting for? I don't know exactly how women think. I am wondering.


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## Kolors

Merry Christmas folks.

Today has been strange. I was awoken at 6AM to a cursing wife slinging my iPhone across the room. Someone got up this morning to read my messages and came across a few lines to a friend that really upset her. I can't recall what all she was saying but it was a crazy start to the day.

Also, she still reads here, hi honey!

Anyhow, she came across a message to a totally platonic female friend of mine where I joked about taking an ex girlfriend to Mexico at the end of the summer if things didnt work out with the wife. We even laughed about it after I typed it. She took that as my plan so that sort of blew up. It didn't help that I had just talked to my buddy in Mexico last night while we wrapped presents about hanging out in Vera Cruz this summer. I even told him it would be me and the wife or me alone. Anyhow, that was a long talk and I didnt even really understand it. She has wanted me gone but the thought of me meeting up with some random chick from my past is a deal breaker? 

I sort of lost my cool. I explained it all to her. What she felt was what I felt each time she was sending texts back and forth with guys being flirty. I told her how she almost got one guy beat up and that if she had stayed any longer at his house one evening I was about to load the kids up, come over there and wreck this poor guy, whether he had done something or now. Also, the offer still stands if I ever feel he is out of place again.

I told her the offer still stands to any other guys that I feel are out of place. I am totally over this beta acting bullsh!t and being some nice guy while I feel abused.

I brought up the crap sex life and the lack of physical love. I agreed that maybe I should have just let her go the first time she pulled this stuff years ago and I should have busted her ass the first time she decided it was OK to get emotionally hung up on someone outside the marriage. I also explained that I am busting my ass to be gone on the 1st just so a few weeks later she cannot come back and say that she knew I wouldn't go.

She told me that she has told me 3 times to stay but I apparently haven't heard her. I told her that if she had been reading this, my facebook, and my texts then she knows exactly what I am looking for and what to say to stop it.

She tried to explain about the friends and going out but all I could say is the disrespect over not calling and not coming home on time is a deal breaker for me and I cannot accept it anymore. We may not be right for each other if my feelings arent taken into consideration. I understand 10-15 minutes but 2 hours is just stupid. Hook up with your friends at 5PM like normal people, have dinner and a couple beers, be home at 8 to see the kids.

I really do not know what else to say. I told her that I get that she has issues with some stuff from the past but she needs to worry more about right now, she has 6 days left. Right now things can be fixed, when I get out of the door I cannot promise anything.

i really have no idea where she is at now. This was all before 830 when the kids woke up. She spent time in bed today and is passed out on the couch. Since the family left things seem normal.

She also hates me posting here because the whole world knows our business. Sigh. You guys don't tell anyone. Id much rather release here and with a couple friends than by telling everyone I know bits and pieces.

Anyway, got a new telescope so it is off to the county tonight to view stars.


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## happyman64

Kolors
Do you look at her phone?

And even though you are making long term plans why not stay focused on your short term goals. 

You are both very dysfunctional and keep hurting each other. 

What a vicious circle you two have going on. 

Break the circle Kolors. 

HM
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

I used to. When this all started I found those texts from the guy flirting with her. After that I was told not to believe most of what I read so I stopped.

I could at anytime, her lock has not changed and I use it now and again to find my phone but I dont bother digging through it. I did call her out about one that I saw a while ago where she minimized our issues to a friend, like I was just over acting.

I am working on the short term goals. Being myself again, getting a better job, and being a good dad. I can't give 100% here and 100% there though. The job is lining up, I feel good other than having the flu, and the kids are all good.

I really do not have many goals for after Jan 1. Get the new house in working order and find a schedule where I Can see the kids. I do not plan on dating or chasing women, even if the MC or the wife suggests it. I do plan on just unwinding, spending time getting the place ready to sell, and enjoying my hobbies and friends for a bit.

Tonight everything is fine and we are all going out stargazing. She knows how I feel now that it is all out there. Mentally I am exhausted. 

I found it humorous that I spent last night up writing about her. I am a bit of a writer and wrote a few poems about us and our relationship and where I was in the world. I started a blog that is unrelated to any of my other stuff and it got a bunch of hits overnight. I missed writing good stuff. The better I get with me the less my writing is effected.


----------



## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> I used to. When this all started I found those texts from the guy flirting with her. After that I was told not to believe most of what I read so I stopped.
> 
> I could at anytime, her lock has not changed and I use it now and again to find my phone but I dont bother digging through it. I did call her out about one that I saw a while ago where she minimized our issues to a friend, like I was just over acting.
> 
> I am working on the short term goals. Being myself again, getting a better job, and being a good dad. I can't give 100% here and 100% there though. The job is lining up, I feel good other than having the flu, and the kids are all good.
> 
> I really do not have many goals for after Jan 1. Get the new house in working order and find a schedule where I Can see the kids. I do not plan on dating or chasing women, even if the MC or the wife suggests it. I do plan on just unwinding, spending time getting the place ready to sell, and enjoying my hobbies and friends for a bit.
> 
> *Tonight everything is fine and we are all going out stargazing. She knows how I feel now that it is all out there. Mentally I am exhausted. *
> 
> I found it humorous that I spent last night up writing about her. I am a bit of a writer and wrote a few poems about us and our relationship and where I was in the world. I started a blog that is unrelated to any of my other stuff and it got a bunch of hits overnight. I missed writing good stuff. The better I get with me the less my writing is effected.


Kolors : this is from a winning playbook. Now she finally knows your concerns 

Has she ever taken them in consideration putting her in your shoes?

Seems like not. That’s on you…. OK now it’s out there

It’s her move now. Keep on your course of self-improvement.

Give her that taste of what she claims to want. I think IMHO she has no clue what she wants.

But when she has some time without you, she will soon realize that’s not it.

Stay Positive 

No arguing pointless arguments

Play to win

55

ETA: Keep writing

Find your true focus point


----------



## LongWalk

She told you three times that you should stay. Given the way you are on edge, you would have noticed and written it down on TAM to make a record of it.

I think it is good that you told her that no sex life is bad for your marriage. It was not the first time.

After this blow up, you need to return to restraint... well, maybe this was passion and she knows that is important, too. Good that she iPhone spying. Tell her she is welcome to read your texts anytime.

Also, since she knows your on TAM. Wish her Merry Christmas from everyone. Through your writings we know her in some way and are rooting for her, for you, to come through somehow.


----------



## Kolors

I have always left my stuff wide open to read and my texts as well.

I have deleted things on facebook from time to time. When it was really personal things that I did not want her to read I would get rid of them but it was very few things and very far between. She looks at time stamps and assumes I delete giant blocks of text but really the couple friends I talk to are in offices so they send a message then respond 10 minutes later.

I am also trying to stop using my phone in the car when I am driving. No calls, texts, emails, nothing. If someone sends me a message I may not respond for 20 mins then sit in a parking lot and have a half hour conversation. 

Anyhow, its total restraint, we really have nothing left to fight about. I hope for the best but prepare for the worst. I sat out at the other house last night for an hour and it was sad being there alone. Maybe it was the silence and lack of furnishings but all I wanted was my daughter to round the corner screaming or asking me to come do something. I have become amazingly attached to her in the last 4 or 5 months.

Tomorrow I have to deliver paint to the house and supplies for the painter then either go to the movies with the daughter or run by the tattoo shop and get a new piece started. I am debating about whether she can come or not, I may end up having to push it off until Sunday.

Anyhow Merry Christmas again. Thanks for the warm wishes.


----------



## Kolors

Well I can't wait till I get somewhere where I can make a post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> Well I can't wait till I get somewhere where I can make a post.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This doesn’t sound good


----------



## Kolors

You'd be suprised.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> You'd be suprised.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then surprise us and maybe yourself as well.


----------



## Kolors

Last night I climbed in bed a few hours after my wife did. Last night she was asleep in the middle of the bed as opposed to all the way on the edge where we would be nowhere near each other. I climbed in and wrapped an arm around her and just laid there peacefully for a bit till I fell asleep. During the night we moved a bit closer and kept waking each other up with brief contact. Finally around 2am she woke up and i heard her starting to tear up. I rolled over and asked if she was ok and she grabbed her pillow and started heading for the den. This time she paused. I pulled the blankets back again and motioned for her to come back to bed. She did. She slid right into her old spot in my arms and let me hold her while she started to unload. She laid it all out for me as we laid in bed. Finally she came to what kept her awake. When we spoke the day before she finally felt like I had gotten it. She knew that I understood what was wrong and that it was going to be ok but I ended my talk with telling her that I was moving on.

That talk crushed her day but she stayed close to me regardless. We talked about my needs and wants and her needs and wants. We covered intimacy, passion, and respect. At one point, like 5am,?she finally said it was sad to her because now I was ready for a divorce instead if working on us. I told her that I was not but I was prepared to leave still if she did not specifically ask me to stay. I said she has a lot to think about before MC next week and went to bed finally at 6ish.

Today we have texted and talked all day. We banned electronics in the house for a week so we can focus on the family. We hugged in the kitchen and smiled. We are looking forward to bed.

It's not fixed but it's fixable. Thanks guys n gals.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Sounds good. Hope you don't post for a while because of the electronics ban. Hope your kids wonder why mommy and daddy are in bed all the time.


----------



## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> Last night I climbed in bed a few hours after my wife did. Last night she was asleep in the middle of the bed as opposed to all the way on the edge where we would be nowhere near each other. I climbed in and wrapped an arm around her and just laid there peacefully for a bit till I fell asleep. During the night we moved a bit closer and kept waking each other up with brief contact. Finally around 2am she woke up and i heard her starting to tear up. I rolled over and asked if she was ok and she grabbed her pillow and started heading for the den. This time she paused. I pulled the blankets back again and motioned for her to come back to bed. She did. She slid right into her old spot in my arms and let me hold her while she started to unload. She laid it all out for me as we laid in bed. Finally she came to what kept her awake. When we spoke the day before she finally felt like I had gotten it. She knew that I understood what was wrong and that it was going to be ok but I ended my talk with telling her that I was moving on.
> 
> That talk crushed her day but she stayed close to me regardless. We talked about my needs and wants and her needs and wants. We covered intimacy, passion, and respect. At one point, like 5am,?she finally said it was sad to her because now I was ready for a divorce instead if working on us. I told her that I was not but I was prepared to leave still if she did not specifically ask me to stay. I said she has a lot to think about before MC next week and went to bed finally at 6ish.
> 
> Today we have texted and talked all day. We banned electronics in the house for a week so we can focus on the family. We hugged in the kitchen and smiled. We are looking forward to bed.
> 
> It's not fixed but it's fixable. Thanks guys n gals.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Overwhelming ....... Great Chance for a new start

You know the drill

Stay Positive 

Play to win

Nice Work Kolors

Give your wife a pat on the back

Keep reinforcing your goals

55


----------



## Kolors

The other day I had a friend tell me that a marriage without goals is doomed. I took a look at my marriage and realized that we had stopped making serious goals years ago. We have accomplished things, but never picked an end game and worked towards it together.

Last night we talked for a bit again after we put the kids to sleep and that was one of the major topics. If we can put together goals and start working on them. We agree that we have always rose to the occasion and handled emergencies amazingly well. We also agree that we have never took the time to pick a focus for our relationship or to even see if we have compatible dreams. We sort of agreed on some goals last night and a end game plan for the next year if we stay together. 

We reaffirmed what we were needing from each other last night and talked peacefully and intelligently through the whole thing. I understand that it will take time for her to warm back up physically and emotionally with me, she understands that it will take time for her to see that I am a more supportive partner. We agree that as we each see one another working for each other then things can start to heal up.

We also agree that if either of us cannot fully get involved and fulfill the others needs, the relationship is over. I do not want to live in a cold marriage forever and she does not want to have a husband that she treats like one of her children.

We went to bed relaxed again. We woke up this morning, laid around in bed with the kids and started our day. I came home on a break today and I suggested that she go do some shopping while I stay at home with the kids. This gives her freedom and me family time, two things we both want.

We plan to both write down what we need from a marriage this week. I want to have it in my pocket so I can remind myself of what I have to do in order to please her. She needs it so she can see what actually matters to me so she can work on that instead of things that are meaningless to me. This should really show us both what is expected to keep it alive. 

Anyhow, naptime with the son then back to work for dinner service.


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## turnera

Have you two done the Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaires? Perfect time to do them.


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## Kolors

No we have not. We may or may not do any more talking the next couple nights before we go to MC.

Today we kinda agreed on what our plan should be for the next year or so if we stay on the path of fixing things. We are going to sell a couple houses and then purchase one in another town or the other side of this town. We are working, together, on a plan to have everything in place before the spring gets here.

What it means: Looks like I am finishing but not furnishing the other house and we are both staying here while we work on us. She has not used the specific language but it is the place where we are at.

We both know that we are still in a very rocky place and that it can go south again at any time. We both know that if we do not work on what the other needs then we are finished without any question.

I do believe that she is going to sit down and read five love languages finally. I told her how important it is for her to finish that book.

Also something we realized last night. Her mother has been single since her mid 30's with no dating or prospects in about 25 years, her grandmother divorced in her 30's, never dated and died alone in her 70's. Both her Aunts are in their 50's and 60's, single, no prospects.

Wonder what is up with the ladies in her blood line?


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## turnera

Not wanting to be tied down to a guy and rearranging herself to suit his wishes?

That was MY mom's reasoning. And she never regretted it.


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## turnera

Look up the questionnaires. They go right in hand with the 5LL book, though they are meant to go with HNHN.


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## happyman64

Kolors

A New Years resolution should be not to end up alone like all the women in her family.

🎉

Happy New Years in advance.

HM


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## Kolors

We have HNHN at home on the shelf and I have 5LL on the iPad. I'll see if she wants to do them after Monday.

She does not do resolutions. 

It's also weird because is seems like we are both ok if it works out or not now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

ADHD doc this morning, beers and lunch with an old friend at 11, the Hobbit at 1, and MC tonight. Idle time kills.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

ADHD Doc referred me to another guy bleh. Movie was decent, and MC was nuts!

I am going to lay off the internets for the next few weeks and post again after my next MC. Like I guessed, my wife reads this pretty regular and I want to keep things unadulterated if you will.

As of tonight we are still married, still in the bed, and still wearing rings. We got some advice from the MC and are going to try it for a few weeks. 

Good luck and all that, see you in a few weeks!


----------



## Kolors

ADHD Doc referred me to another guy bleh. Movie was decent, and MC was nuts!

I am going to lay off the internets for the next few weeks and post again after my next MC. Like I guessed, my wife reads this pretty regular and I want to keep things unadulterated if you will.

As of tonight we are still married, still in the bed, and still wearing rings. We got some advice from the MC and are going to try it for a few weeks. 

Good luck and all that, see you in a few weeks!


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## Kolors

So, happy belated New Year!

So, this year has been crazy around my house to say the least.

Without digging through the thread to remember what Ive covered Ill just dive in.

I start a new job in 9 days. It is not my dream job but it puts me about 10k off where I was before I was laid off. It is in the food industry running a restaurant for people that I worked for many years ago.

I am going to still work part time at the club I was working for in order to save up some extra cash. Ill be working as a pastry chef with will allow me to blow off steam and for them to say they have a pastry chef on staff.

My other house is ready to move in to with a couple quick purchases that could be loaded in my truck all at one time. I am really not sure what to do with it yet, more than likely sell it but like I said, its been crazy around here.

We are divorcing this summer. We have not set a date for it but we are going to go our own ways after school is out. We have not ironed it all out yet because we are waiting until after my training and until the new restaurant is going well enough to not need me 7 days a week. We both agree that it is in our best interests to do it.

I have learned a few things in a few short weeks. The biggest thing is that my wife will never be able to be intimate and supportive of me and I will never be able to support her emotionally and domestically like she needs. Neither of us really trust each other after the last year and it is simply not getting better. We are not fighting really anymore but its only been a week. 

We finally had a discussion that led to he making some admissions about her feelings and me doing the same. She accused me of being a cheater and between her and her counselor decided that my cheating is the reason that I stressed out this summer, not my job. That offended the hell out of me. I have never cheated or even thought about another women the whole time we were together. She also told me that she hated me and the thought of being with me. I think she sort of exaggerated because she later said it was a figure of speech but I got the point. She also admitted that she just cannot be intimate, not just with me but really with anyone and it did have to do with some old issues.

To make a long story short, I gave up. We are trying to get along and doing a good job. Last night we hung out like buddies for a couple hours talking. She really seems upset that I have resolved to call it quits but I cannot figure out why. She does not like that sex is such a big deal for me and the lack of it and inability to go back to is was finally a deal breaker.

If all goes well we hold out till June and actually become friends for the kids. She said shes in no hurry to divorce, she just wants to find a new place before the school year.

What a difference a few weeks makes!


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## sammy3

Awwww Kolors, 

I'm sorry... It's late...but we'll all write in the morning... hang in there
~sammy


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## LongWalk

It was a good thing that you could both admit that sex was an issue. All the while you wrote that you could get by without it and hang on just did not ring true.

Both of you have had opposite sex friendships. Both of you see those as EA's. 

Your wife could still love you.

Are you going to move out? Apparently the agreement is that you stay together until the summer. Why doesn't she want you to move into the house that was freed up?

The only rational answer is that you are staying together in the hopes of R. If this is true, just be the best guy you can. Let her come to you.


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## happyman64

> To make a long story short, I gave up. She really seems upset that I have resolved to call it quits but I cannot figure out why.


IMO you did not just give up, you tried to make it work.

What you have fully realized is that it takes two to have a marriage, to fix a marriage and to nourish a marriage.

She is upset because she is not capable period. She is not capable of being an equal partner. She is not capable of nourishing you.

What's worse? She is not capable of lowering her walls so you can nourish her.

You tried.

Now keep moving forward buddy.

It is the only direction you can go in.

HM


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## LongWalk

Do you want to live together?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

Kolors : The conclusions that you and your wife have reached are tenuous at best.

Are you both really convinced?

Maybe not the worst outcome as long as it’s what you really want.
The fact that you will remain in the home together is interesting.

LW is correct let her come to you.

HM is absolutely correct you did not give up

We here all know how much you tried and anguished to find remedy / solutions and insight to your marriage.

You performed under the constant pressure and fear of failure on all fronts.

You will be a better man father and someday husband.

Continue to stay positive

Continue to play to win

Congrats on the new job

Keep your chin you young man

55


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## Kolors

It's all actually really ok. We talked again till 3am last night. There's just nothing left. We both love each other bu we both realize that we are bad for each other in terms of marriage. I'll never be what she needs and she will never be what I need. Love doesn't conquer all.

I'm happy living there until we get her a new house this summer. We are saving up to get her a down payment and to furnish it. We will get the papers done when we get around to it, there is no rush. We will date people when we are ready and will not drag the kids around wth strangers. I'll have 50% on the kids and pay her monthly while she gets established then take care of half of all the kid expenses.

We really just want it to end with us being ok with each other and able to still hang out and enjoy the kids without issues. She's concerned that I'm already sleeping around, which I'm not, but other than that we agree that we just are not what each other needs. We both hope that we each find someone to put up with us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Kolors said:


> We both hope that we each find someone to put up with us.


Correction: We both hope that we take the time to learn more about ourselves and learn to love ourselves, so we don't just pick up the next available person who will take us.


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## Kolors

That's the thing, we both know ourselves pretty well now, or at least I do. I'll be married in a few years, she more than likely won't. I want a relationship with someone, she's not really interested.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Your last post is an amazing statement, given all the uncertainty you have gone through. Your wife seems almost fearful of the world.

What are the chances that as move out day comes closer she will put out feelers for R?

Now that it's over does she make any physical contact?


----------



## Kolors

Nope no physical contact, and I really do not think I would like to confuse things by starting that. Hugs would be fine but that's about the gist of it.

I do not think she is fearful of the world but she does realize that she is going to be alone in the world soon. She knows that I'll still have her back and want to make sure that she gets set up and needs nothing as we split. If we can stay friendly we still plan to spend time together with the kids so it hopefully eases the transition. 

I really hope she does not want to reconcile at the last minute. It's been rough for both of us to get to this spot. Who knows what happens years down the road.
Minute.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kolors

LongWalk said:


> Your last post is an amazing statement, given all the uncertainty you have gone through. *Your wife seems almost fearful of the world.*


I have thought about that quite a bit. When we met she was quite meek. She was to the point where she would not call for pizza because of her confidence issues. I firmly believe that it is why she bar-tended and loved it, she appeared totally confident and there was never any rejection. I fell in love with her while she was playing the outgoing bartender as well. 

I cant say she is fearful of the world but she trusts very little in it and never forgets anyone or anything that has done her wrong. She knows it is going to be rough out there and she is forcing herself to believe that I am going to help her get established and not fail.


----------



## LongWalk

She is drawing out the separation process to try and increase future security. You are enabling this to some degree.

The bartender role was a disguise for her insecurity. It is a controlled environment that allowed her to practice flirting. She could be sympathetic and receive a tip for it. The friends you described earlier, her EA buddies, they mostly sounded like dysfunctional people. She gravitates towards them because they cannot judge her; she about as together as they are.

Now that you are detaching you are going to become more attractive to her. You say you agree not to date until physical separation. To me that sounds like torture and temptation. Any single night of the week she can roll over on you and initiate sex. If it happens you'll both be cast into the sea of confusion.

Your latest discussions have become more frank. You two are not done with relationship talk yet. If you take the initiative to further set up the separation details, including filing for divorce, she will still change her mind. How is difficult to predict. But the current ripple free surface of the pond is just a passing moment.


----------



## Kolors

I assume there will be issues between now and then. She is actively house shopping and wants to find something to put an offer on by mid summer. I may be enabling somewhat but it's more of a relationship of convenience for us both right now. Neither of us are increasing our debt and we are both getting to spend time with the kids. It is basically a friendly environment. It is a little sad to not have the old marriage but deep down we know we would just mess it up again or stick it out just to be miserable when the kids leave one day.

I really do not think that I am in the mood to date. There are a few girls that have been attentive lately but I just don't really care to mess around currently. We talked about dating and agreed that we would not rub it in each other's face and that we would be honest about when we start. No sneaking people into the house and always being home before the kids wake up. I will also be working seven days a week for a while getting a restaurant open and still going to school. When I am off work I want to sit with the kids or see my buddies, not deal with woman drama. When the summer gets here I am sure that will change, I'll expect to date before my bday in July.

Sex is really not going to happen here. She told me things that explain a lot of her sex issues in the last week and I can better understand her dislike of it. It did not change anything between us but it did shed some light. I can't imagine her rolling over asking for sex. If she did it would be a huge setback. I don't know if I could do it, it was so hard to accept the loss of our marriage and I don't want to falsely feel like I have some of it back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Betrayedone

Kolors, I started following your story about the time I found/needed this site. You are OK by me and have handled yourself marvelously!


----------



## Kolors

Thanks! It's been a real roller coaster the last six months or so. I really am glad I found this place to vent and get advice.

The advice I will take with me to the next relationship is:

1. Shut up.
2. Pay attention.
3. Love her everyday, not just when you have time.
4. And make sure what you are fighting for is really what you need.

I'm sure this thread is far from over. I may start a new thread in a couple months but there is more story here I am sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Betrayedone

Keep us posted.....you are being watched and championed. Those observations will serve you well.


----------



## Kolors

Man I would really like something to post but everything is rather mellow around the house now. We sat around the other night and had a much longer talk about us and kept in agreeance that the split is needed.

I really think that we both hate it now. I really think that we both love each other very much. I know that we would just hurt each other again and again though. I totally believe that in a few years we would both wish we had split while we could stand each other and while the kids are young.

She is still house shopping and has lined up much of the stuff she will need for her new place. We are going to stay married at least long enough for her to buy a place so she can show my income and hers. We will worry about getting my name off it later. She really does not need that much for the new home she says but she does need help with a down payment and getting all the stuff turned on.

As I see it, She should be able to save up some money between now and then and I should be able to give her some to help. Much of my earnings over the next six months will go into savings in order to renovate the house we share now and get it ready to sell next spring.

It truly is sad when a couple loves each other but knows it will never work. I held her while she cried the other night about how awful it is. We woke up holding hands and rubbing feet several times in the last week. Hopefully we can stay close, I have seen very few divorced couples become smashingly good friends in the end.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

this is crazy.
I cannot even comprehend rubbing my wife's feet and holding her while she cried that she is leaving me.

I wish the split between us could have been that smooth.
Do your kids know what is going to happen?

This whole marriage thing is crazy!
You fall in love, work your way to afford to buy a house, create amazing children. Spend many years getting to know the quirks and triggers of a family and not only a wife.

Then what happens?
I dont know. Triggering right now but I am glad to see someone is making it.
Someone who is not there but on the right path.

Who do we become when x number of years was spent becoming this person that we actually enjoyed being?

You fought for your marriage, there is no infidelity, you have children.

Do you really believe all the reasons she gave or is there maybe a chemical imbalance, depression, etc...?

Thank you for your story Kolors. 
Please keep us updated because your journey is giving strength to others just as some of the people who have commented here have done for you.

We all need to know that others are going through the same problems and that we really are not all alone.


----------



## just got it 55

Kolors I am not convinced

55


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## Keepin-my-head-up

just got it 55 said:


> Kolors I am not convinced
> 
> 55



fake it til you make it.


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## LongWalk

This ain't over yet.


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## Kolors

Oh it's totally not over yet. Like I've said, it evolves daily. Tonight we discussed refinancing this house and buying hers. We looked at cars for me to buy. We have hung out on the couch most of the Night and will go to our bed in a few to sleep.

Maybe one day way down the road we get over it all but we both just need the space. 

We did comment how ****ed up it is for two people to love each other but to know that being together is impossible. I just hope we stay this friendly. I do not want to totally lose her and I want the kids to see us getting along in the future.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Now that you have agreed to divorce as the best thing that two people who love each other can do, your teamwork may set off thoughts of reconciliation. 

Keep rubbing her feet. Might as wll give her a facial massage. And if you are doing that you can still spoon before sleeping. She cannot blame you for some involuntary hard attitude pressed against her.

With you working to secure her financial future, you are providing the security that she desires. 

As long as you let it all be her idea she may offer you a new deal.

You are doing a good job. Really.

You have stopped the cycle of fighting.


----------



## just got it 55

LongWalk said:


> Now that you have agreed to divorce as the best thing that two people who love each other can do, your teamwork may set off thoughts of reconciliation.
> 
> Keep rubbing her feet. Might as wll give her a facial massage. And if you are doing that you can still spoon before sleeping. She cannot blame you for some involuntary hard attitude pressed against her.
> 
> With you working to secure her financial future, you are providing the security that she desires.
> 
> As long as you let it all be her idea she may offer you a new deal.
> 
> You are doing a good job. Really.
> 
> You have stopped the cycle of fighting.


Kolors It’s hard to know what’s in her heart and mind from where we stand.

I can say that from your perspective you are clearly not done.

You have referred to “we’ll see” on more than one occasion.

It seems like you two are just over thinking it

Just live your lives for a while and stop talking and speculating each other’s feelings future actions.

Talk about splitting up and how you both genuinely love each other is conflicting and causing confusion.

Just stay positive

Just have fun

Just love each other

Just love your children

And more importantly both of you just love yourself

Then we will see

55


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## sammy3

Hoping the new job goes well for you , too.

~sammy


----------



## Kolors

Thanks Sammy. I leave Sunday night and come back Friday for my first week and then off Wed and Thursday the next two weeks before I am finally home again. Ill be coming back each week to see the kids and hang out around the house. I am off the 13th and 14th and will do some nice deserts for my old employer as requested. After that its full time back in my home town, 55 hours a week and running full speed!

I am going to miss the chef gig but I have to pay the bills.


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## Kolors

So, started the new job today and so far it is amazingly easy. The general manager and myself worked together for this same company a decade ago and still work quite well together. Training today was basically having a talk with a HR guy and us being shown around the building. 

What may be awesome is that I may have the same days off each week which is unheard of! If all goes as planned I should have Tuesday and Wednesday off each week if we handle scheduling the same way that these guys do. This will be awesome with the way we are talking about handling custody.


On the marriage front it looks like we are going to rotate out who stays at the house and who stays at the other house that I own. On the days that I keep the kids I will stay at our current home and my wife will stay at the other house and vice versa. This will keep the kids in a familiar environment and allow us to both save up money while selling off properties and getting the divorce worked out. Our total increase in bills will be around $100.00 to have cable and internet turned on at the other property. I plan to furnish it and put in appliances over the next month.

Hopefully I can have a contractor in to handle the couple things that need worked on over the next month or so and we can have the home we share on the market by April or May. It appears that we should profit around $40,000 off selling the home and we plan to split it 50/50. That will give her the money to put a down payment on a home with the addition of the money that she saves up between now and then. We figured out what she could afford with me paying the states recommendation for child support and she is basing her decision on that. It very well may take a year for the house to sell so we are not in a huge hurry but the faster the better.

We laid in bed last night and still talked about how messed up it is to love someone that you know you cannot have a relationship with. It is crazy to come to that realization. All she is asking is for a fair settlement and to meet any women before I drag them around the kids and she wants to do the same with me. We both know that it will suck as soon as the other starts dating and finds someone but we acknowledge that it will happen sooner than either of us want to admit.

Other than that it is business as usual. Plugging along and making things happen.


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## sidney2718

I wish you the best of luck Kolors. And know that people can make their own luck by sometimes taking a well-thought-out change.

There are good posters here, especially LongWalk. Pay attention to what they say and you will profit.

Hang in there!


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## happyman64

Kolors

Glad the new job is working out.



> We did comment how ****ed up it is for two people to love each other but to know that being together is impossible.


What amazes me is that two people can date,fall in love, get married, have kids and then come to the realization that they l*o*ve each other but cannot l*i*ve with each other.

Notice how the "o" turns to "i".

So I will give you some food for thought. Hopefully you will share this with your wife.

There is no "I" in a loving relationship. 

When two people give themselves to each other totally there is only "we" or "us".

And the goal is to continue to feed that "we". When one or both spouses stop that nurturing of the relationship "I" comes into play.

Take that with you into your next relationship.

Whether that is with someone new or your wife.

It is simple to remember. 

There is no "I".

HM


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## LongWalk

Thanks, Sidney, but HappyMan is one of the top posters in my book. 

Kolors,

You and your wife have come along way. Perhaps you can put the "o" back in place of the "I". HappyMan is challenging you. You have not chosen to dissolve everything quickly.

Perhaps your wife is longing to date someone new. But she may also want to save your relationship and even more when it is over. You need to keep playing it cool. Your willingness to leave will make you more attractive.

Once you begin swapping places are you going to 180 her to reduce the pain?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## just got it 55

Happy Man is awesome LW but don't sell yourself short my brother

Kolors Be well

Keep up with the plan

You know what it was

The one I keep hammering home on you

Tell me again what it is

55


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## Kolors

It's a new plan! I'm winning now because it's just me against me.

I just rolled up in town after my first week training. She picked up a shift at the bar workin the door for a cancer benefit tonight so I won't see her until tomorrow.

There's really no reason for a 180, we are pretty cool and not really up in each other's business. Our relationship as a couple is over and we are pretty much ok with it. It did hurt her when she realized it and she still says she never intended for it to go this far.

We still talked not every night all week and I just dropped off hot doughnuts on my way to the bar.

Right now, life is good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Betrayedone

Kolors....I have been monitoring your entire thread and things just don't add up. The only other person who has tried as hard as you is Bagdon.......Very similar, never say die. You and your wife are NOT divorce material! Your wife needs meds and TLC from a professional. You are giving her all the TLC you can provide. You have done well. I do not know how to proceed from this point forward but if you can get her to see a Dr I think you can pull this off. You are NOT divorce material if you can stabilize her. My whack job is too strong and views any form of self help as weakness so I don't stand a chance, but you two are NOT over yet. D


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## happyman64

> It did hurt her when she realized it and she still says she never intended for it to go this far.


Who took it too far in her mind? You or her?


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## Betrayedone

There you go....reality check on her part.......duh


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## just got it 55

Betrayedone said:


> There you go....reality check on her part.......duh


Indeed

55


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## Kolors

She thought I would give her some sort of space and she would figure out her life and how we fit together. He says she never intended for this to turn into a divorce, just time apart to miss each other.

In her mind I went too far this whole time. I overreacted at the start, I tried too hard to save it, and now I quit on the marriage once I decided that she could not give me what I need from a mate.

Earlier in the week she went on about how she was trying to do things faster since I had moved on and needed to see other people and find a new relationship. I told her that wasn't the case, there would be new people an I would be dating in a few months or at worst by the summer. I'm not pushing her out or rushing the papers, I am just over the marriage. Maybe in a few years we can revisit things but we know that we cannot currently make each other happy. 

I keep getting the feeling that she regrets this whole mess and she says that she wishes that my needs weren't what she dislikes ad is uncomfortable with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

It is a reality check! She's realized that she is broke and unable to support herself and soon to be divorced and alone. I realized that I am soon to be single and will have lost a mate that I could have saved if I had tried two years ago.

We both realized that we may not ever be capable of happiness together but we could ink out a mediocre marriage with love but no passion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

If you had sex, she might find you were still into each other. How do you initiate without her feeling put upon?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Kolors

I think we are into each other on some level, just not as a couple to grow old and die with. Who knows about sex, she's really just not into it. If it happened it would be fun but it wouldn't change things
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

And I can't say that I really want things to change. I have made myself ok with being divorced. I can see the benefits of being single as much as the benefits of being married.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Press forward with divorce.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Betrayedone

LongWalk said:


> Press forward with divorce.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


Kolors....Normally I advocate 100% always for trying to keep it together and work it out but your efforts have been so exemplary and so dedicated and you have suffered so much. You are now in a place where you have found peace. You can look in the mirror and know that you have done your best. You have made the changes that you need to make to you. She is still a hot mess and seems to be playing the victim. Problem is she hasn't rounded the corner psychologically and admitted her role and the need to fix HERSELF. She needs to come up to your level of actualization for you guys to be successful as a team. For you to regress and go back to her in her current state would destroy you and your progress. I actually feel guilty stating this because I am such a believer in trying to keep it together. BUT, like I said last night, your story is not over yet.........stand by to stand by.......Peace D


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## Kolors

Yep divorce will happen this summer I believe. By June we should be at different houses every night.

We picked out a mattress and bed for the other house today, I pick it up wed.  I'll get everything else with my next checks. By march we will start staying a night a week there to ease the transition for the kids. We will extend it to two and three days by summer.

I hope we made the right call, I still love her and hope to see her happy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

This extended goodbye seems designed to prolong the pain while allowing her opportunity to regret her decision.

If you move into the house and shuttle back and forth for the kids, essentially you end sleeping in the same bed. When you plan to divorce such separation means dating is okay.

Will you make a rule to forbid having others in either household?

If in April she finds another woman's tooth brush and panties in the other house will she suddenly want you again or be happy that you are getting laid?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Kolors

There's a rule of no other people in the house with the kids or around the kids. Whatever happens at the other place is fine. There also won't be a woman's toothbrush or panties! If I did hook up with someone I'd clean properly and I'm sure she would as well.

We are actually trying to make it easier financially as no one will to rent a new place or pay new bills.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

> I keep getting the feeling that she regrets this whole mess and she says that *she wishes that my *needs weren't what she dislikes ad is uncomfortable with.


Notice how it is still about you.

I wonder if her tune will be different in a few months as the Divorce looms closer.

Good luck with any man she brings to the new home.

Because your STBXW is going to be a mess.

Keep moving forward Kolors.


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## LongWalk

Is she impressed that you have gotten a higher paying job?

Does she consider you her provider?

What is wrong with her libido?

Does she read romance novels? Does she watch much TV?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

I don't think she is impressed as much as she is happy that I'm back doing what I'm really good. She is a little impressed that they are looking at moving me into a general manager role in the next expansion.

She does not look at me as her provider. She does not want to be anybody's responsibility, she is really proud of herself when she can make things work on her own. She would much rather have a job paying $50,000 a year right now than her current job and depending on me for financial support.

Her libido is a direct result of childhood trauma. I only recently got the entire story. I can now see where she is coming from. She Has started getting help for it and I hope it works.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

She could have shared the story of her childhood trauma with you earlier. But it is the prospect of divorce that has brought to the problem to the surface. What is sad is that this could have been a factor in the unhappiness in your marriage earlier on. Now that she has upped the ante, and you have called her, the two cards you both turned over say divorce. Neither of your really wanted it to play out this way.

Luckily she can take her card back if she chooses but it will have to be sooner rather than later and she will have to put out the affection card and hope that you will take back your D card and match her.


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## Betrayedone

LongWalk said:


> She could have shared the story of her childhood trauma with you earlier. But it is the prospect of divorce that has brought to the problem to the surface. What is sad is that this could have been a factor in the unhappiness in your marriage earlier on. Now that she has upped the ante, and you have called her, the two cards you both turned over say divorce. Neither of your really wanted it to play out this way.
> 
> Luckily she can take her card back if she chooses but it will have to be sooner rather than later and she will have to put out the affection card and hope that you will take back your D card and match her.


yes.....good analogy


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## Kolors

I guess what isn't going over is that we have agreed its over.

She put off some strange signals the last week or so and I started to worry. She seemed sad when I left to travel for work the other day and had choked and made comments about how I just up and decided it was divorce time. 

It made me panic a bit because we were content with a path laid out. It felt to me that she was starting to have second thoughts and I really didnt want either of us to hope for anything or regret anything.

I brought it up last night and we sort of fell apart. These kind of talks always turn bad and never solve anything. It ended where we were when we started, we are bad for each other, we should stay cool until June, we should start staying nights at the other house to warm the kids up. I finally told her that part of me knows that in six months we will both feel like *******s about this whole thing. I wasnt pushing for a divorce because of that. We may both get a couple dates under our belt and see how good we really had it, who knows?

We both admitted that we have certain prospects, hers is still the guy she used to work with and mine is someone that she has never met, that we plan to date either in secret now or in the open eventually (thats still rough for both of us to talk about). Neither of us know how it will play out in the end.

We went a bit further into who gets what and who gets the kids. It turns out she doesnt want to share the kids 3/4 and 4/3, she only wants me to have them twice a week. I understand that if we end up in court in our state I will end up with them every other weekend and have to be happy about it. She was also under the assumption that I was going to refuse to pay her any support. She said she only wants me to pay her half the kids expenses (insurance, daycare, lunches, and activities) which added up to less than what I was offering to pay.

We also debated what to do with this house, again, and still agreed to sell it and split the money. The only questions that are left are my property that I inherited and some money that I hold in an estate account, which looks like she will leave alone.

Divorce is a pain in the ass isn't it? I really hope it doesnt turn bad for us. I understand that happy people do not leave each other but grown ups should be able to split without unnecessary drama.


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## happyman64

There is always some kind of drama.

But if the goal is an amicable divorce then you both have to agree to an amicable divorce.

I just hope your wife can learn to be intimate again.

I also think she is beginning to realize you are going to be just fine and find love a lot quicker than her.

And that realization alone can cause drama.

No matter what keep your inheritance and 2nd home out of the equation.

HM


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## Keepin-my-head-up

happyman64 said:


> There is always some kind of drama.
> 
> But if the goal is an amicable divorce then you both have to agree to an amicable divorce.
> 
> *I just hope your wife can learn to be intimate again.*
> I also think she is beginning to realize you are going to be just fine and find love a lot quicker than her.
> 
> And that realization alone can cause drama.
> 
> No matter what keep your inheritance and 2nd home out of the equation.
> 
> HM



Oh she will.
If they are talking about prospects and she is mentioning the guy he was already worried about. 

Well, she will learn to be intimate again I guarantee it.
It is not about finding herself and not wanting anyone else.

She wants to see if the grass is greener.
She probably won't have an affair though.
It sounds like she actually has some morals as far as that goes.
Instead she will end the relationship first.

You always hear: "divorce instead of cheat" on this website.

She is going to do just that.
But it is beginning to sound like both parties had eyes on other prizes for quite some time now.


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## just got it 55

Kolors: You will know your are done when you accept that she is with another man.You won't know that until it happens.

55


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## LongWalk

Kolors,

Happyman and Myheadup have both commented on the question of intimacy. I will, too.

I think you made a great breakthrough in your relationship when you admitted that sex was important to you. She says that she does not want to have sex with you. This is positive in some sense because it means that she is not into casual sex, not even with her own husband. If she does have sex with you and it is good, she will love you again.

Her beef might be that once you have her strung out on orgasms, then she knows she'll be putty in your hands and she resents what happened in your relationship earlier. She is afraid of recommitting to your relationship, only to end up in the same situation after three or 4 years.

Forcing you to live in celibacy has been a sort of shxt test. You have passed it pretty well. Admitting that you were not going to continue to take it was the way to graduate from the school of sexless marriage.

If you continue to be self confident and march forward, giving her the divorce she once wanted, she may want to get you back in bed. This is a rather tricky situation because she won't want to appear weak. You have to make a move when she signals that she is ready. But you may not want to expose yourself anymore than she does.

As to the custody deal, as divorced parent all I can say is that 50/50 is great for kids. Who wants to be a frigging weekend dad? That is a major life failure in my book.

Her demand for so much more, do you think it is motivated by financial need or belief that you don't measure up to her as a parent?

If she has the kids all the time, that is going to hurt them if she is dating. She will be trying to make time for men that must come from your children.


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## Tobyboy

This is like watching a train wreck in the making. You both agreeing to an "open marriage" with the end result being an amicable divorce? Pipe dream! Anger, resentment, retaliation will be the outcome if you both take this route.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

I don't think they have agreed to an open marriage. They have agreed to separate and divorce. The only element that is marriage like is their desire to gradually phase out sleeping in the same bed.


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## Kolors

Yea and it's not just sleeping in the same bed, it's sleeping at the same home. It's not an open marriage, we are technically separated in our opinion but not rushing thing as I am traveling 5-6 nights a week currently and will be quite busy until may. June appears to be when my work will calm down and we will get all the final plans started then.

Last night we revisited visitation and I'll be able to get then three days a week. I'm trying to shoot for Monday, Friday, and Saturday. My off days should be Tuesday and wendsday so I can keep a full day to get stuff done. It will also allow her to find some bar shift work on the weekends or go out to see music since that tends to be on those nights. 

I also offered to buy her out of the house and she said she would take 20k to sign it all away and divorce asking for nothing else. It really sounds like my best deal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

You're talking turkey when you get down to concrete numbers. That makes it sound over and done. Three or four months without starting to date while separated. Good luck.

Does she cover her body so that you never see her naked anymore? That's another sign that you are completely out.


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## Kolors

She still changes in the bedroom while I lay there. I know I'm out because we agreed that we are technically separated now and trying to stick it out to make things easy.

I am showing my other house next week to someone that is looking to buy. If it sells then I am going to pay her and we will sell off the house we are in now or I'll refinance it and have payments around 300 a month. When I sell it I should put a good chunk back in my pocket.

We are getting along fine unless the divorce terms come up. That seems to upset her until she just says do whatever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tobyboy

Now I see how the dynamics have change in your sitch. You might not want to say/write it here (for understandable reasons) but I think I get it now. Good for you Kolors!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

A woman will not get naked in front of man who is not hers. Even looking is a privilege. So emotionally she is still undecided. 

Just keep going the way you are.

Selling the house instead of using for a transition, that is a new plan. Instead of the gradual transition you will shoot for her getting the money to head off on her own. You will stay put. That is good pyschologically – she must go out and find a place. You have been helping her, right? Why doesn't she just do it on her own?

One the biggest problems in your relationship is the co-dependence and resentment. However, you have broken this at last by expressing your ability to survive and go on in life. She still has mixed feelings.

I agree with Toyboy that you are trying to keep a good poker face while calling her bluff. This absolutely the right strategy. Buy some new after shave.

Your life is so busy. Don't know when you find time to work out, but at the very least do some running and push ups.

Once you are spending many nights aways from home for work you face the staying overnight in motels. Hard life. Are you children good on the telephone? Will you continue engage your stbx in conversations every evening?


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## turnera

LongWalk said:


> A woman will not get naked in front of man who is not hers. Even looking is a privilege. So emotionally she is still undecided.


Agreed.


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## LongWalk

When you are training there will surely be women around. If you just take group photos and post on Facebook or get tagged in group photos with them. She will sooner or later look and assume that you are going to chase the youngest and prettiest... or the one with the nicest smile... or who is standing closest to you.


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## Kolors

Oh I am not worried about her being jealous or seeing pics of me with younger women. She understands where I am and where I feel like I will be.

I was nothing but honest in telling her that I would date again when I find someone good for me. She knows my past and how I ran through women and she keeps bringing that up. A while back I told her that I had someone lined up and she still brings that up. 

The truth is, I have so much more to be picky about these days so I wont be able to just **** around chasing waitresses and bar *****s. I have to think about my kids and my career first. The last thing I need to do is to hook up with some silly woman who ends up clingy and needing me all the time. I plan to shop around for a woman that has a career, enjoys me, and would be good for my kids. Hopefully she will have kids of her own so I can tell what kind of mom she is. I Really do not want someone that seems OK but ends up being some kind of tyrant around children. My kids are great, they really do not need to be screwed up by a step parent.

Um as far as the changing clothes thing, she was still changing in the bedroom when I left Monday. Who knows what tomorrow brings. I know that we are over sexually so it doesn't really matter if she prances around naked, we are not having sex.

I am going to see my lawyer in the next couple weeks and see if he can answer some of the divorce questions that we have. We have discussed most everything and it should go pretty smooth.


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## AVR1962

Kolors said:


> Oh I am not worried about her being jealous or seeing pics of me with younger women. She understands where I am and where I feel like I will be.
> 
> I was nothing but honest in telling her that I would date again when I find someone good for me. She knows my past and how I ran through women and she keeps bringing that up. A while back I told her that I had someone lined up and she still brings that up.
> 
> The truth is, I have so much more to be picky about these days so I wont be able to just **** around chasing waitresses and bar *****s. I have to think about my kids and my career first. The last thing I need to do is to hook up with some silly woman who ends up clingy and needing me all the time. I plan to shop around for a woman that has a career, enjoys me, and would be good for my kids. Hopefully she will have kids of her own so I can tell what kind of mom she is. I Really do not want someone that seems OK but ends up being some kind of tyrant around children. My kids are great, they really do not need to be screwed up by a step parent.
> 
> Um as far as the changing clothes thing, she was still changing in the bedroom when I left Monday. Who knows what tomorrow brings. I know that we are over sexually so it doesn't really matter if she prances around naked, we are not having sex.
> 
> I am going to see my lawyer in the next couple weeks and see if he can answer some of the divorce questions that we have. We have discussed most everything and it should go pretty smooth.


I have not followed the entirety of this thread but this blows my mind away. Kolors, you are a piece of work. I don't get how you see your actions justifiable. Just because you are open and honest with her it's okay to chase other women and you are still married? you say she knows your past but have you ever thought that what you are doing is part of the problem? Can you not see that? This is EXACTLY what my ex did. Had an affair which I caught him in, found out later it was not his first. He then asks me to "wait" til the affair is over and asks me if I think it is possible to be in love with two women at the same time. Of course I am not going to wait for his affair to be over, how ridiculous! He would never wait for me to have an affair and keep the marriage intact. I asked him to see a counselor as divorce meant 2 little babies without their dad and then later half siblings and step family situations which I did not want for my children. he said he knew what he was doing was wrong but that this was what he wanted to do and he filed for divorce.

The lady he was having an affair with broke up with him. He then went on to marry a young lady much younger than himself and did the same thing to her. They also split after 2 more children. he is now with yet another woman with 3 children. Do you realize how complicated these issues get just because you love the thrill of chasing after a new tail? Do you realize the trail of hurt this leave behind or do you care? Are you that insecure in yourself that you have to collect woman to make you feel like a man, to give yourself any kind of worth? And doesn't that feel a little empty?

Good luck to you! I hope you find yourself one day.


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## Keepin-my-head-up

AVR1962 said:


> I have not followed the entirety of this thread but this blows my mind away. Kolors, you are a piece of work. I don't get how you see your actions justifiable. Just because you are open and honest with her it's okay to chase other women and you are still married? you say she knows your past but have you ever thought that what you are doing is part of the problem? Can you not see that? This is EXACTLY what my ex did. Had an affair which I caught him in, found out later it was not his first. He then asks me to "wait" til the affair is over and asks me if I think it is possible to be in love with two women at the same time. Of course I am not going to wait for his affair to be over, how ridiculous! He would never wait for me to have an affair and keep the marriage intact. I asked him to see a counselor as divorce meant 2 little babies without their dad and then later half siblings and step family situations which I did not want for my children. he said he knew what he was doing was wrong but that this was what he wanted to do and he filed for divorce.
> 
> The lady he was having an affair with broke up with him. He then went on to marry a young lady much younger than himself and did the same thing to her. They also split after 2 more children. he is now with yet another woman with 3 children. Do you realize how complicated these issues get just because you love the thrill of chasing after a new tail? Do you realize the trail of hurt this leave behind or do you care? Are you that insecure in yourself that you have to collect woman to make you feel like a man, to give yourself any kind of worth? And doesn't that feel a little empty?
> 
> Good luck to you! I hope you find yourself one day.


Well put!
I said earlier that they both have eyes on another prize.
At best you are messing with each others minds with or without knowing it.

She may have checked out completely and it is just nostalgia.
All that doesn't matter now tho because you both agree that you are done.
From what you are writing, we get the feeling that she definitely is. 
You sound like you are still clinging for something (which is completely understandable)

Also, women do change in front of other men who are not theirs.
They will change in front of men they feel comfortable with.
There is a new generation that have much different ideas of what is taboo.
Plus, 
I am told stories of the hippie generation and they were care free changing away.
Also,

Plus Plus! 
She still considers that her home and has changed in front of you numerous times right?
That probably just means that she is comfortable enough around you or it is such a routine or norm that she sees no issues with it.
My ex did the same probably up until the day we were done.


I have also known women in college who would do the same.
Maybe it was because they were gorgeous and enjoyed the little tease game but tho it is not the norm is not unheard of.

It all doesn't matter if you are 100 percent sold on divorce.
But if not, you telling her that you will have another woman soon may not be the best thing for the future.

Having said that, can you honestly say that the massages and hot donuts and all the other favors you are doing for her have no hidden agenda behind them?

I only add my 2 cents because this is a very interesting and helpful story you have been brave enough to share Kolors.


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## Kolors

AVR1962 said:


> I have not followed the entirety of this thread but this blows my mind away. Kolors, you are a piece of work. I don't get how you see your actions justifiable. Just because you are open and honest with her it's okay to chase other women


Sigh, that's the worst part. If you had followed along then you may realize you just jumped to silly conclusions. Slow down a little and read. I just said that I'm not chasing women, I used to do that and I don't care to now. Long story to sum up
But you can go back and read it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

How is she acting now that you are away most of the time?


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## Kolors

Nope, no hidden agenda. I am simply trying to smooth things out before we split in order to keep us friendly. My father told me to make sure that we didnt hate each other when it is all said and done. He usually gives terrible advice, but he was spot on with that.

I am trying my best to continue to be nice and to support her in ways that I can. Shes having a rough go of it and I am trying to keep us from having that rough divorce that I hear about from all my friends. So yes, talking to her and bringing her doughnuts or drinks is me honestly trying to stay friends with her. 

Now that I am away she is highly stressed. I wasn't the best husband but she is really being worked over right now. Between her job and our relationship she is having a rough go of it. I hate to see her so torn up. She called me yesterday while I was furniture shopping having a very rough day and it took me half an hour to calm her down. I am glad that we are on terms where she is comfortable talking to me still. We really stopped talking years ago. We stayed up till 1AM last night talking about her issues.

I hope things stay calm, I really do.


----------



## LongWalk

You failed to emotionally support her before. Now you are listening carefully as the end draws near. She is becoming co-dependent as you detach. She wants divorce but doesn't want you to want it, at least not quickly.

Your opinion of her is falling. Her weakness is beginning to repulse you. Before you ignored it now it irritates you. Your love for her is dying. You wouldn't have sex with her now, even if she initiated. Of course she is stressed.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

Kolors said:


> *Nope, no hidden agenda. I am simply trying to smooth things out before we split in order to keep us friendly. My father told me to make sure that we didnt hate each other when it is all said and done. He usually gives terrible advice, but he was spot on with that.*
> 
> I am trying my best to continue to be nice and to support her in ways that I can. Shes having a rough go of it and I am trying to keep us from having that rough divorce that I hear about from all my friends. So yes, talking to her and bringing her doughnuts or drinks is me honestly trying to stay friends with her.
> 
> Now that I am away she is highly stressed. I wasn't the best husband but she is really being worked over right now. Between her job and our relationship she is having a rough go of it. I hate to see her so torn up. She called me yesterday while I was furniture shopping having a very rough day and it took me half an hour to calm her down. I am glad that we are on terms where she is comfortable talking to me still. We really stopped talking years ago. We stayed up till 1AM last night talking about her issues.
> 
> I hope things stay calm, I really do.


Well if that is true, and I am in no position to doubt you, than I am wrong and apologize for making that assumption.

You my friend are handling this much more cautiously and calmly than I ever did or could.

How is your 4 year old taking it?
I don't know if 4 is to young to kind of know what is going on or not.

Best to do it before they are 6+ though, that is for sure.


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## Kolors

She just turned five! She doesn't like it but I travel a lot so she gets used to me being gone. She will not be happy when we split, but she will adjust. She has issues with being away from her mom and cries when she isn't here at bedtime. I am sure she will get past that. 

Funny realization last night was that our daughter will barely remember us together and our son won't recall it a bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Kids can adjust to divorce. They don't like vicious fighting.


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## sammy3

kolors, 

In discussing emotional issues, try to be as honest and caring as possible, and maintain a balance in what you share. Don't just focus on hurtful or angry feelings. Relationships are hard to give up because we have to give up so many good things in them too. Talk about the good things you've shared and experienced, what each have learned, going forward, not just calming the fears...

Hang in there, as it's a scary time for all moving through...

-sammy


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## Kolors

So no relationship stuff going on, just a lot of new job and getting the other house ready. Drama is minimal but we do have the occasional silly spat. It's quite relaxing out at the other house but I've yet to spend the night yet. I'll get a bed in the next week or so and me an the daughter are going to come have a spend the night party. I've missed the gym for a week with all this going on but I'll catch up soon.

All in all, life is good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> So no relationship stuff going on, just a lot of new job and getting the other house ready. Drama is minimal but we do have the occasional silly spat. It's quite relaxing out at the other house but I've yet to spend the night yet. I'll get a bed in the next week or so and me an the daughter are going to come have a spend the night party. I've missed the gym for a week with all this going on but I'll catch up soon.
> 
> All in all, life is good.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good attitude Kolors

Keep it up

55


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## LongWalk

So she is getting more confident that she wants divorce?


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## Kolors

I think so. We have the divorce mapped out and who is getting what. It should be smooth. We plan to file in July for tax reasons. Next year we will each claim on child for taxes. I am supposed to see our lawyer sometime in the next few weeks and get the ball rolling.

Aside from that, I have the new place mostly set up. I am sleeping there for the first time right now. I have tons of work to do out here still. I plan to stay a few nights a week and keep increasing the time each week over the next few months. My daughter is warming up to staying our here but she wants mommy to come too.

I guess I will start dating, or taking a shot at it I April or May. It's been quite a while since there was any action at home so it's time to get to work again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Sounds good. I have a feeling there is going to be some pain coming down the stretch. But she sought divorce and is getting what she requested.


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## Kolors

I hope there's no pain. I hope everything keeps on a relatively smooth path.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Is anyone else concerned with the ex's well being? The more I read here the more it seems people have this mean or bitter relationship. I just wonder if I am doing it wrong. I am still concerned with her problems and her career. As I see it, we are still connected due to the kids and will be for many years. I really don't want to see her fail or get in a bad relationship. I really don't want to see her in a bad position financially once the paperwork is signed. Maybe it's just me but I want her life to be great.

Also, after spending the night at the we house the other day I realized being single isn't so bad. Lots of free time and I can get more stuff done. I am looking forward to spending a few nights there next week and taking my daughter at least one night to warm her up to it. I still need a fridge and a washer/dryer but aside from that it is totally liveable.

Starting to feel my way around new women again. I've met a few over the last couple months at work and online that may be quite a bit of fun.
Bit of fun.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Not true. I see lots of people (usually the women) who worry over their stbx's condition and well-being. You don't just stop caring for someone over night.


----------



## happyman64

Kolors

I think if you can be honest with each other and keep it amicable that is the best scenario.

But let me ask you one question.

If your wife did not want a divorce would you still divorce her?

HM


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## Tobyboy

From what I've read, I think it's natural to be concerned about your soon to be ex, at least early in the process. Later, those feelings will turn to indifference. That's when you know that you have moved on!!


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

Kolors said:


> Is anyone else concerned with the ex's well being? The more I read here the more it seems people have this mean or bitter relationship. I just wonder if I am doing it wrong. I am still concerned with her problems and her career. As I see it, we are still connected due to the kids and will be for many years. I really don't want to see her fail or get in a bad relationship. I really don't want to see her in a bad position financially once the paperwork is signed. Maybe it's just me but I want her life to be great.
> 
> Also, after spending the night at the we house the other day I realized being single isn't so bad. Lots of free time and I can get more stuff done. I am looking forward to spending a few nights there next week and taking my daughter at least one night to warm her up to it. I still need a fridge and a washer/dryer but aside from that it is totally liveable.
> 
> Starting to feel my way around new women again. I've met a few over the last couple months at work and online that may be quite a bit of fun.
> Bit of fun.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Not everyone goes thru the stages the same way.
Maybe you will never hit that bitter angry stage.
Anger is real tho and I think it is totally natural for someone to be angry at or hold anger towards the person who destroyed their life as they knew it.

Eventually you have to let that go, you have to build a new life and hopefully a better one.
And in time you will either accept or LOVE the new life you built.

It does not mean that you ever have to like the person who did it to you.
Civil is the best my former other half deserves and I will be civil.
I do not have to pretend that we are friends cause we are not.
I do not have to hope for her to have a great life, because as long as my kids are happy, she is free to build her own life as well.

No wrong way when it is the end.
As long as you and your kids end up happier and stronger than be friends or don't.

It is your path


----------



## LongWalk

Happy Man's question is a good one. 

All the late night talking and listening must be causing you both to change. You say that the conversations lead you both to conclude that you loved each other but could not remain married.

But if you separate and divorce so beautifully, one would image that you could get along married quite well. The obstacle is that, as you pointed out, without intimacy your marriage is emotionally barren. Either your wife loaths the idea of sex with you, in which case the amicable separation is an act, or she on edge wondering whether you will initiate. 

Of course she may indifferent to you, but you said that continues. I maybe creating some logic puzzle that is unreal. Pardon me if I have gotten it wrong.


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## Kolors

I would still want to be divorced, yes. I can't imagine it either way. I did too much hurting to get back into it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

I don't think that we could ever get along Married again. And sex is out of the question, we both know that each other will not attempt anything like that. 

She has moved the couch again. If she wants to sleep there that it's totally okay with me. I do miss the companionship and conversation at night but it is what it is. We still talk every night when I get home and we send each other messages about our days but it's more like keeping up with a friend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Ok, you are dismantling your lives together. You each take turns steering the ship and the course is not changing.


----------



## Kolors

Yea its pretty much decided. Last night we laughed about how much better we get along now that we rarely see each other. I stayed at my house last night and will stay the next two nights at the home we share. Next week I'll stay a few more days, maybe Monday-Thursday and take my daughter out one night.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

The end of co-dependence is happiness at being quit of a person who is a net negative. The co-dependent love is discovered to be pathological to the healthy sense of self. Each calm step to separate is returning you both to belief in your own abilities and potential. Sex would be a step backwards into a relationship that is limiting if not outright strangling. Is this correct description?

Your love may or may not have been healthy at some point in the past. Today, though, there is almost nothing to mourn, for you do even have to pity each other as unwilling rejects. The rejection is now mutual. For followers of your thread this is not a romantic conclusion. It seems for the best. Ironically, you both see yourselves as richer and deeper than the other recognized. Will you admire each other from a distance?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sammy3

LongWalk said:


> She wants divorce but doesn't want you to want it,


Beautifully said! 

-sammy


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## Kolors

I still think she's great. I just can't possibly have a relationship with her. I'll admire her as a person and be happy about what she does for the kids.

I had a female contact me today about having dinner, it was great. I told her that I couldn't yet, I just have too much going on and really no free time. It was pretty exciting though. I've also been quite happy that my new coworkers thought I was in my late 20s instead of mid 30s. 

Life is good friends!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

How are you doing, Sammy?


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## Kolors

Another night at my new place down. I plan to head out gain tonight after the kids are asleep. I bought some night stands that need assembled and I am trying to watch the pipes since it's been cold the last few nights.

I should only have a few more weeks left training out of town then I can get better settled. So far so good, we have had a couple little squabbles about the kids and money but all in all we are still functioning. 

Life is still good and getting better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

You feel liberation is around the corner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## manfromlamancha

Kolors, I have been monitoring your thread since you started it (has many similarities to my relationship with my wife - some time ago - I am older than you).

I dont understand what happened but three quarters of the way through the thread you changed! You went from "I love my wife and will fight to mend this" to "I just can't wait to get divorced and start chasing other hot women". Now, there is probably good reason for this but I cannot see it.

Your wife needs help - pure and simple. She is traumatised from her childhood experiences and was not the most confident of people. She had problems with you but never cheated. She is (by your own words) a person that you love and admire.

Yet, you have both "decided" that you cannot be around each other. Her from a position of "illness" (is the way I see it) and you from a position of "I have had enough and man are there some hot women out there waiting for me".

You have kids that you both love and by your own admission you love each other. So I still do not get what made you suddenly decide to stop working on this. I am not a psychiatrist or anything but I really do not buy into this business of you cannot be the husband she wants you to be - it is starting to sound like you are thinking the single life is not that bad for you (sorry if I have this wrong - but it really looks like that).

I fought for my marriage through something VERY similar and we are here together at the end of it. I am glad that I did even though the single life would have appeared a lot more attractive at the time. Something told me that years down the road I would have regretted not fighting harder.

I cannot really advise you because only you know what is happening there - however, I can give you my observations.

I still believe that your marriage can definitely be fixed and made even stronger than it ever was. Listen to her and really get down to what she needs.

But if you decide to divorce, this discussing it to the extent that you two do and trying to be "friendly" just doesn't sound healthy to me.

Good luck!


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## LongWalk

:iagree:

I think Kolors has called his wife's bluff. This is good in so far as it has forced her to rethink her marriage and their relationship. Now they are able to change because they are changing.

Having sex would make them both vulnerable, but it would force them to commit to their relationship. It is a lot easier to admit to being wrong, to forgive or ask forgiveness in a post coital stupor. In fact, you don't even need to say too much, since both will try harder after coming together again.

Kolors wife wanted a better man. Kolors stepped up to bat. They felt a few drops of rain and retreated to the dugout.

However, we don't really see Kolors's wife. Seen through his eye she is an enigma, who alternates between being a self confident woman and a complete mess. 

Here is a question for you, Kolors. In these long late night conversations in which you admitted loving each other but agreed that you could never get along, has your wife ever admitted that she had some outside hope of reconcilation? When you have massaged her feet or other such stuff and her eyes were closed, did you consciously say to yourself that she wanted you to kiss her, but then you refused to act?


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## Tobyboy

The shock wore off!!! I think Kolors came to the realization that the sexless, disrespectful, resentful marriage was not what he had signed up for! 
His stbxw is getting exactly what she wanted.... for the moment anyhow! She can continue getting her emotional needs met with OM(s) without the expectation of sex in the end. With the D in works, those expectations with Kolors are gone. She can relax and be comfortable around him now!
Kolors your doing great. Your going to be shock again soon when you find out what real healthy woman are like. In a good way!!!


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## sammy3

LongWalk said:


> How are you doing, Sammy?


I am well, thank you, dealing w a frail 93 yr old father, of late. 

-sammy


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## LongWalk

I know the feeling. My parents are in their 80s.

Tobyboy,

You are right, but the story is a a little bit richer. Kolors wife is a little bit shy. She built up her self confidence by working in the bar restaurant scene. Kolors was successful there and she was attracted to him. She was cute and, I am guessing, sexually attractive.

Once they married they had some bad look. Maybe made some decisions that did not work out. Kolors wasn't happy in work. He took his wife for granted and visa versa. Eventually, her resentments overwhelmed her love for him and she asked for separation/divorce. 

He has since put a lot of energy into their relationship and rediscovered himself. They are in a sense where they once thought they would be. If they both agree that they love each other but are incompatitible, one cannot help but wonder if it is pride that is preventing them from making an effort to save their marriage.

It maybe, too, that they dare not invest anymore of their soul in the venture. That is is a legitimate reason to get out. But usually when you have a team, it is a good instinct to rally and comeback.


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## just got it 55

manfromlamancha said:


> Kolors, I have been monitoring your thread since you started it (has many similarities to my relationship with my wife - some time ago - I am older than you).
> 
> I dont understand what happened but three quarters of the way through the thread you changed! You went from "I love my wife and will fight to mend this" to "I just can't wait to get divorced and start chasing other hot women". Now, there is probably good reason for this but I cannot see it.
> 
> Your wife needs help - pure and simple. She is traumatised from her childhood experiences and was not the most confident of people. She had problems with you but never cheated. She is (by your own words) a person that you love and admire.
> 
> Yet, you have both "decided" that you cannot be around each other. Her from a position of "illness" (is the way I see it) and you from a position of "I have had enough and man are there some hot women out there waiting for me".
> 
> You have kids that you both love and by your own admission you love each other. So I still do not get what made you suddenly decide to stop working on this. I am not a psychiatrist or anything but I really do not buy into this business of you cannot be the husband she wants you to be - it is starting to sound like you are thinking the single life is not that bad for you (sorry if I have this wrong - but it really looks like that).
> 
> I fought for my marriage through something VERY similar and we are here together at the end of it. I am glad that I did even though the single life would have appeared a lot more attractive at the time. Something told me that years down the road I would have regretted not fighting harder.
> 
> I cannot really advise you because only you know what is happening there - however, I can give you my observations.
> 
> I still believe that your marriage can definitely be fixed and made even stronger than it ever was. Listen to her and really get down to what she needs.
> 
> But if you decide to divorce, this discussing it to the extent that you two do and trying to be "friendly" just doesn't sound healthy to me.
> 
> Good luck!


:iagree:

Since the D decision has been made I have been struggling to

know how to help or what to post.

Had I had the incite

This would have been it word for word

Nice post manfromlamancha

55


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## Tobyboy

I think Kolors said it all in this one post .



Kolors said:


> So, happy belated New Year!
> 
> So, this year has been crazy around my house to say the least.
> 
> Without digging through the thread to remember what Ive covered Ill just dive in.
> 
> I start a new job in 9 days. It is not my dream job but it puts me about 10k off where I was before I was laid off. It is in the food industry running a restaurant for people that I worked for many years ago.
> 
> I am going to still work part time at the club I was working for in order to save up some extra cash. Ill be working as a pastry chef with will allow me to blow off steam and for them to say they have a pastry chef on staff.
> 
> My other house is ready to move in to with a couple quick purchases that could be loaded in my truck all at one time. I am really not sure what to do with it yet, more than likely sell it but like I said, its been crazy around here.
> 
> We are divorcing this summer. We have not set a date for it but we are going to go our own ways after school is out. We have not ironed it all out yet because we are waiting until after my training and until the new restaurant is going well enough to not need me 7 days a week. We both agree that it is in our best interests to do it.
> 
> I have learned a few things in a few short weeks. The biggest thing is that my wife will never be able to be intimate and supportive of me and I will never be able to support her emotionally and domestically like she needs. Neither of us really trust each other after the last year and it is simply not getting better. We are not fighting really anymore but its only been a week.
> 
> We finally had a discussion that led to he making some admissions about her feelings and me doing the same. She accused me of being a cheater and between her and her counselor decided that my cheating is the reason that I stressed out this summer, not my job. That offended the hell out of me. I have never cheated or even thought about another women the whole time we were together. She also told me that she hated me and the thought of being with me. I think she sort of exaggerated because she later said it was a figure of speech but I got the point. She also admitted that she just cannot be intimate, not just with me but really with anyone and it did have to do with some old issues.
> 
> To make a long story short, I gave up. We are trying to get along and doing a good job. Last night we hung out like buddies for a couple hours talking. She really seems upset that I have resolved to call it quits but I cannot figure out why. She does not like that sex is such a big deal for me and the lack of it and inability to go back to is was finally a deal breaker.
> 
> If all goes well we hold out till June and actually become friends for the kids. She said shes in no hurry to divorce, she just wants to find a new place before the school year.
> 
> What a difference a few weeks
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kolors

I wish I could explain how the switch is flipped in my brain. I've always been this way and really tried to avoid it this time. We are pretty cool now and I hope it stays this way.

My daughter is asking when I am going to sleep at our house again and that's sad. I have been a day or two a week.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Kids like having two homes, as long as they are loved in both.


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## LongWalk

> I have learned a few things in a few short weeks. The biggest thing is that my wife will never be able to be intimate and supportive of me and I will never be able to support her emotionally and domestically like she needs. Neither of us really trust each other after the last year and it is simply not getting better. We are not fighting really anymore but its only been a week.
> 
> We finally had a discussion that led to he making some admissions about her feelings and me doing the same. She accused me of being a cheater and between her and her counselor decided that my cheating is the reason that I stressed out this summer, not my job. That offended the hell out of me. I have never cheated or even thought about another women the whole time we were together. *She also told me that she hated me and the thought of being with me.* I think she sort of exaggerated because she later said it was a figure of speech but I got the point. She also admitted that she just cannot be intimate, not just with me but really with anyone and it did have to do with some old issues.


Much of this has to do with co-dependence and the end of that unhealthy relationship.

Hate is still an emotion. She did not say she was indifferent.


----------



## Kolors

Slowly moving more stuff to the new house. I've gotten all my furnishings and all my appliances! I have a couple of projects that I need an electrician to come over and do but other than that I'm pretty much set up.

We had a little drama this week. It was nothing like it used to be though. I think the more stuff that leaves the house the higher the emotions get.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sammy3

Kolors said:


> Slowly moving more stuff to the new house. I've gotten all my furnishings and all my appliances! I have a couple of projects that I need an electrician to come over and do but other than that I'm pretty much set up.
> 
> We had a little drama this week. It was nothing like it used to be though. I think the more stuff that leaves the house the higher the emotions get.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




...because reality is starting to set in.

-sammy


----------



## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> Slowly moving more stuff to the new house. I've gotten all my furnishings and all my appliances! I have a couple of projects that I need an electrician to come over and do but other than that I'm pretty much set up.
> 
> We had a little drama this week. It was nothing like it used to be though. I think the more stuff that leaves the house the higher the emotions get.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kolors: Are you taking it by day or do you have a 5 year type plan ?

55


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## Kolors

I have a bit of a plan but it's more like a rest of the year plan.

Finish moving and getting the kids adjusted.
Build my savings back.
Keep getting in shape.
Keep my new job while I finish my last 3 semesters of school.

I'm sure there's more but I'm keeping it simple. I have 300 a month in bills currently so I plan to have a bit of fun this year as I adjust. Have a trip planned for October and looking at another in July.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

Thats a great start most importantly school

Play to win Lil Bro

55


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## turnera

trips to where?


----------



## Kolors

New Orleans this October and Memphis around July.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sammy3

I loooove Memphis!!

~sammy


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## Kolors

Yeah I haven't been there in a few years. I think we're going to hit Tunica and come back up hang out downtown.

Also, must stay away from younger women! Maybe it's not the women's age but the fact that they are just crazy in the two towns that I've worked in recently.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kolors

Whew, first night at the new house with both kids tonight!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Wow!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Kolors said:


> We both avoided conversation about the blow up the night before with the exception of how tired we both were and that we would never do it again.


Speaking for me only, I can say that this is a BAD sign. If she's not talking about it, that means its not worth bringing up anymore. She's tired. She's done. If you want to know she's staying, don't get complacent.


----------



## Kolors

Oh we aren't staying, we split a bit ago! 

So as it appears the divorce will happen in July. I'm going to write everything up for my lawyer to get started on in the next couple days. We have talked most of it through and we seem to have covered all the normal stuff. She wants something in writing about us being separated now so we do not try to make adultery claims between now and July. I hadn't thought of it but she's right. I believe the person she wants to date will not do anything while we are technically married. There is also a female that I plan to see next month after she moves back to this state. I'm excited!

Work is still cruising right along. I got a compliment from the regional director on the impact that I have had on the store that I have been working out of while mine is finished. That's only cool because she rarely does that. My store will be up in around five weeks.

The kids are doing well. My daughter gets what's going on but really likes having two places to go. 
My son is just a baby and has no clue lol. As long as there are hot wheels and snacks he likes it.

Going to a tattoo expo today with friends and having everyone over tomorrow for games and grub.

Life is good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Were you surprized that she brought it up? Sounds like she is not confident that you are okay with the end of your marriage. But this the very level headed side of her. The hot mess is hidden from you. She doesn't consider that yours either anymore.

Perhaps we are sadder than you at this point.

All of the energy that you were prepared to pour into yourself and your marriage, it was so promising. And in the end you had to withdraw and both of your are saving yourselves of separate futures. What a deconstruction.


----------



## happyman64

I think a separation agreement is a good idea if you both agree on it.


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## Kolors

Working on it happy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tobyboy

Kolors said:


> She wants something in writing about us being separated now so we do not try to make adultery claims between now and July. I hadn't thought of it but she's right. I believe the person she wants to date will not do anything while we are technically married._Posted via Mobile Device_


What a noble dude!!!!! He's in for a rude awakening!!!

Your doing great K. Carry on!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Whenever the WA spouse shares stories about the other people they are seeing or planning to see, that is the ultimate sign of co dependence and cake eating.

While I agree with Happyman that such an agreement might be good, it also depends on what she is trying to say with such a statement. After all, you have agreed to divorce and you are separating. Is the need for an explicit statement some coming from a desire for additional drama? Why would she assume that you would be hurt and scandalized?

Maybe she is thinking soundly. Hard to understand her motivation.


----------



## Tobyboy

LongWalk said:


> Whenever the WA spouse shares stories about the other people they are seeing or planning to see, that is the ultimate sign of co dependence and cake eating.
> 
> While I agree with Happyman that such an agreement might be good, it also depends on what she is trying to say with such a statement. After all, you have agreed to divorce and you are separating. Is the need for an explicit statement some coming from a desire for additional drama? Why would she assume that you would be hurt and scandalized?
> 
> Maybe she is thinking soundly. Hard to understand her motivation.


Good question LW. I believe the statement she made was to elicit a response.....an emotional one! 

It must be brutal, seeing someone that loved and cared for her being indifferent towards her. 

Question now is.....what's she going to do next?


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## LongWalk

I agree. The question is calculated to create pain. Unless Kolors has been so needy and clinging that she is trying to get him off like cold chewing gum from from the bottom of a shoe.

During separation leading to divorce people have the right to date. They tell their ex about new relationships when they want permission to introduce their kids to new SO, when they know it's serious.


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## happyman64

All good points.

That is why a well written separation agreement should be written to take into account all those issues mentioned above.

The purpose of the agreement is to avoid drama from either side.

In fact it should include:

dating
over night visits from sexual partners
finances
bills
child support
visitation

Just to name a few things. That way they will both be protected.


HM


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## Kolors

We have most if it worked out verbally but not in writing. She just doesn't want me making adultery claims later in the divorce. 

Anyway, life moves on. I do miss the married life and having a dependable spouse and seeing the kids each night. I do get to talk to them or video chat them every night. It feels good to hear them miss me and look forward to seeing me. I've avoided the house we shared lately because I get sad each time I go by. I am happy that we split before hate set in. I still love that woman and hope her life improves. 

I'll be spending the next few weeks traveling to do a restaurant opening. I'll miss the family! Then I get back and have two weeks to get mine open. After that I'll work about a month straight before I see another off day. The things we do for money!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> We have most if it worked out verbally but not in writing. She just doesn't want me making adultery claims later in the divorce.
> 
> Anyway, life moves on. I do miss the married life and having a dependable spouse and seeing the kids each night. I do get to talk to them or video chat them every night. It feels good to hear them miss me and look forward to seeing me. I've avoided the house we shared lately because I get sad each time I go by. I am happy that we split before hate set in. I still love that woman and hope her life improves.
> 
> I'll be spending the next few weeks traveling to do a restaurant opening. I'll miss the family! Then I get back and have two weeks to get mine open. After that I'll work about a month straight before I see another off day. The things we do for money!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kolors



> The things we do for money!


You really know why...

To support ourselves.
To support our families.

I know you know that.

And of course your wife does not want you making adultery claims. Because she already has plans in her head. Just watch.

Your doing the best you can do and in the right order as well.

Get that business opened and running smoothly. Your life with the kids will fall into place.

And your love life will as well. 

All in good time Kolors.

HM


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## Tobyboy

Kolors said:


> We have most if it worked out verbally but not in writing. She just doesn't want me making adultery claims later in the divorce.
> 
> Anyway, life moves on. I do miss the married life and having a dependable spouse and seeing the kids each night. I do get to talk to them or video chat them every night. It feels good to hear them miss me and look forward to seeing me. I've avoided the house we shared lately because I get sad each time I go by. I am happy that we split before hate set in. I still love that woman and hope her life improves.
> 
> I'll be spending the next few weeks traveling to do a restaurant opening. I'll miss the family! Then I get back and have two weeks to get mine open. After that I'll work about a month straight before I see another off day. The things we do for money!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Verbal agreements? Weren't your wedding vows verbal also.....how did that work out for you? Look, not trying to be an ass here, but you need get those in writing for your protection. Sooner than later!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

Hey bro, just checking in on you. I know this is my first post on the thread but I have been lurking since near the beginning. Hope all is well with you and the little ones.


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## Kolors

Things are going quite well. The kids love it so far. It's an adjustment but we are all happy when we are together. My life is pretty great currently. Work is going amazingly well and my social life is back up and running.

Honestly, I am happy again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

I guess I am back to a weekly post now that things have calmed down.

I was offered a general manager job at a fine dining property that our company owns last week and have a few weeks to decide if I want to take it over. The money would be a bit better but the stress would be huge in comparison. This particular place has been a landmark in our area for forty years so making any changes there causes ripples. A majority of my background is fine dining though and they seriously need help. 

This week I am off to Nashville to open another property that we purchased last year. It should be good fun. Most grand openings are kind of crazy to say the least. After that it is back home to do the training and opening for one in my home town. If all goes well with the one here, I should have an offer to open to more and maybe move into an area role with the company first part of next year. They are excited to have me and love what I have accomplished for the company in a short amount of time.

Who knew a little restaurant job would turn into all of this!

I had the kids this weekend and it was quite relaxing. Waking up to a bed full of happy is good for the soul. I hope to be back for Easter so we can have a bit of fun before the hard work starts locally.

The wife is chugging along like always. I called yesterday to catch up and we talked for 20 minutes about stuff that we had been doing and things going on with the kids. She seems to be in a better place now and we may actually pull off getting along post divorce. 

Anyway, off to get my suitcase packed and to go have breakfast with a friend before I leave. 

Life is good ladies and gentlemen.


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## turnera

Sounds like you are very in demand. Excellent! Now, what to do with it? After watching my DH being in your position and NOT doing the right thing, here's my advice. While you are 'hot,' negotiate. Ask for either a piece of ownership, stock options, or a substantial raise - from BOTH of those groups. Tell them the other is courting you and you're deciding what to do that will both help them AND you. They'll understand. See which one wants you more.


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## Kolors

I am working on the raise and bigger bonus plan already. If it all plays out I will stay away from desk jobs for several years!


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## Oblivious2678

Kolors, glad to see things are working out well for you. Keep making yourself happy!


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## Kolors

It is crazy, things seem to get better each day. There are some things that I just chose to not disclose here but all in all, life has turned 180 for me since September.

The director of culinary management for my company called me today and hinted at training me to take his position so he can move into a new role. We hit it off quite well at a grand opening last week and he called asking me to come to one this weekend as well. If all goes well, I may have an extremely good job in the next six months.

I really do feel like hard work, refusing to be drug down by the negative around me, and prayer have put me in this place. 

I mean, a couple of you guys helped tremendously 

I have my daughter tonight and its a great break from the quiet nights I tend to have in the county. 

Life is good.


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## farsidejunky

Awesome brother. Keep showing there is life and hope on the other side.


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## LongWalk

How's it going, Kolors?


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## Kolors

Sorry I've been so incredibly busy over the last month that I really haven't had time to play on the internet! I worked 106 hours last week and today was my first day off in weeks! 

Things are going really well for me. We have opened the restaurant and it is the smoothest opening so far acording to the owners and regional management. The started discussing raises for me and my staff this week! I should start making my bonuses in 45 ish days so I will be back to where I was financially before I lost my cozy office job. There are talks of three more stores opening and of me taking a general manager position in one.

I'm still not divorced. I plan to get the ball rolling in that soon. The stbx and myself get along quite well. It really is quite hard to end a 12 year relationship. I miss a lot about being married still. I miss the comfort of home and family, someone to hold your hand when life is a bit rough, and someone to hold at night. She really was a great woman and a wonderful mom. I am happy that we aren't fighting or making it rough on the kids. Our close friends know what is going on but our acquaintances do not. We still talk briefly a few times a week and I still keep her up to date on my life. She claims to have nothing at all going on so it's a mostly one sided talk. She's not in a huge rush for the papers so I'll get it done soon. Hopefully before my bday in July. I still love the woman in a strange way, not romantically but as one cares for a close long time friend. I have had a few "what if" thoughts in the last six months but they were fleeting at best. I'll never be the right kind of husband for her and she will never be a mate for me. Sad but true.

I have been seeing someone recently. We actually dated a few times as kids when we were wild and crazy as hell. She recently divorced and moved back to the area. We do have fun when we hang out and it's refreshing to be around someone that isn't invested in me or my life. I briefly met her kids a week or so ago, they are well older than mine, but I have yet to introduce her mine. We have sort of hid out and kept things private. My friends that know, and my coworkers that have met her, seem to like her and are suprised that we are so much alike. I am waiting for the "new" to wear off before I get emotionally invested in anything though. I had a long talk with her about how I was fine dating and having fun but I could only go so far emotionally. She understands my point of view so we avoid a lot of emotionally charged talks. We were quite volatile when we dated before so I want to make sure that we have grown out of that before I get past the having fun stage.

My daughter knows we live apart bit doesn't get divorce yet. She thinks we are still a big happy family but I have another home and work a lot. That's going to be a long talk soon.

All in all things are good! I plan to pop on here more now that I have some free time. I miss all the good talks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mummy3

Hi Kolors I have just found your conversation feed today and I had to write. You are the first person I have come across who has even a remotely similar situation to what I am going through at the moment. I have only just begun to read, unfortunately I have skipped to the end to see your marriage didn't make it. But I wanted to thank you for sharing your experience. So many people see things in black and white, and when you have been together and loved for so long it isn't so. I'm sure I may write again, to see if you have any advice, or start a chat of my own. But for now I will continue reading and see what I can learn from your experience.


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## LongWalk

So she doesn't feel that your success at work is a positive change in your lives to which she should be connected?

Seems like you are becoming more outgoing again, which was more your approach to life when your wife first was attracted towards you.

Perhaps in some sense you are better off without her, don't you think?

Do you think some of her resentments, e.g., towards your father, will now fade?

If she doesn't talk about whom she is dating, that may be because she doesn't want to make you jealous and/or she doesn't want to reveal that she is emotionally committed to anyone only to have it not turn into a successful relationship.


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## Kolors

I have tried to reply three different times last couple weeks But I keep getting distracted by other things!

As for as I am aware of, she isn't actively seeing anyone. We have mutual friends and they all say she still alone. 

I don't necessarily feel better without her but I do feel different without her. Today is actually the first day that I have spent any time thinking about her in months. I had children yesterday and overnight and I was so sad after I dropped them off today. I Spent the rest of my day laying around the house Dwelling on old issues. Truth is, I just miss having my family. I enjoyed having a wife and kids around every day. I miss having my son fall asleep in my lap and the relief when both kids were finally asleep.

Like I said, old stuff. 

Guess the moral of today is never think that you are fully healed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

So you see her when you pick up and drop off the kids?


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## Kolors

I usually pick them up from school and run by her house to get their bags and stuff for the next day. If it's not too late in the day I'll hang out for a bit and we talk and watch the kids play. Sometimes when I'm off at five I'll run over and hang out for a bit to see them. It's never really uncomfortable, it's like hanging out with an old friend. She still takes stabs now and again at things I used to do but I tend to just ignore them and carry on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Good for you. Keep moving down the road.

I would ignore the comments.

She got what she wanted. She should be happy.

Keep focusing on you and the kids.

And your job......


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## LongWalk

Hard to give up possessions, especially human ones.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Kolors

My son has his second bday this week! I picked my daughter up after work today and we picked up his presents. After shopping we want back to the stbx house and I got to spend a good hour rolling around in the yard with them. I now feel fully recharged and happy with life again.

We are going to have a little party at her house Sunday for him and I may make a little cake and let him have his presents at my house Wednesday night. My IC said it's important to start building separate memories and it's important that both kids understand that they can still rely on both parents, regardless of our marital situation.

On a totally unrelated note, it's beautiful out in the country this time of the year. I forgot what nature sounded like and how clear the night sky can be until I moved here.

Oh! And hot date tomorrow. I'm starting to feel pretty confident with that part of my new life. It's really nice to get out and relax again. 

It's almost a year since all this started. I really cannot believe the changes I've seen. 

Life is good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Happy news from my doc today, It seems that I am finally off the blood pressure meds that he put me on last summer! Those things were brutal. Now to lose my last 20lbs! I'm starting to work on running 10k now. Maybe it'll be easier now without being constantly light headed from the drugs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

Awesome brother! That is a helluva milestone.


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## Kolors

Yea thanks! He thinks it was stress that was keeping it high and now I am much less stressed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

Plus BP meds are incredibly hard on your body. I am sure the combination of stress plus the extra weight you WERE carrying was enough to make them necessary at one time. Give yourself some credit. 

Thanks for updating. Your story was one of the initial marathon posts I read on TAM, and I learned a lot from it.


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## Kolors

Called the lawyer today to get the papers started. Going to pick up all the stuff next week and start getting it all ironed out. I hope to maintain the peaceful relationship that we currently have through the actual divorce. It'll be good to have it out if the way. Once my name gets off the house she will refi it and I can finally cut back how much cash I'm giving each month. Look like it will be almost a 350 a month savings. I think I'll spazz out a buy a new car. 

Booked a lake house today for my bday. I am terribly excited about that. My first trip with no kids, just friends. Told the lady my life's story and she knocked about half off my rate for the week. Now, if the liquor store would only do the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall

Just read your thread - thanks for the story.

It resonated with me. I, also, was with my ex wife for 12 years. 2 kids, and now enjoy fairly amicable post-divorce communications.
It's a great asset, especially to the kids, to be able to sit down for a cup of coffee and chat for a couple of hours. 

Word of warning, though: You will eventually meet someone, and 9 / 10 girls are going to feel threatened by this type of relationship. The norm is the opposite, and many don't understand how you can care for your ex as a mother to your children, and at the same time give them your full attention as you new girlfriend.
Be upfront about it. And don't, ever, let your new lady impose restrictions on these interactions to the detriment of your children.


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## Kolors

I enjoy being able to speak to my ex. We are having some issues as we start dating and finalizing things but that's to be expected. I really want to stay cool for the kids sake. She's not a bad person, just not my person. I'm sure as time goes by things will mellow out again. 

The woman I am currently seeing has no issues with it. Her divorce was nasty and still flares up from time to time. I was very upfront about wanting to stay good with my ex and that I didn't want her to think it was anything other than trying to maintain a good relationship with someone that I'll have to interact with for at least 16 more years! 

Anyhow, just got home from a three day lake trip for my bday. It was so strange to not have the kids there! The company didn't hurt for sure. It was really relaxing to get away from life and just "be" for a few days. No one else had booked any of the houses on the island so We had a whole island to ourselves. I'm really enjoying life again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

So it's been a while! My restaurant is starting to run itself and school is under control so I have a bit of free time.

This week I am finally getting a lawyer to start the divorce. We are getting to the point where the only things left to decide are the child support payments and how often I can have my kids. She wants them five days a week but I want them three days a week. I even agreed to slowly work in the third day as long as she would just agree to it on paper. It's no use, she's dead set on fighting that one out.

I really don't get how a person can end a marriage on bull**** terms and expect to limit access to the kids. If I had been wrapped up in drugs or cheating then I would get it. I was caught up in working to support my family and college so I could better myself. From what I hear it should be easy for me to get them three days given the circumstances. 

I also offered to pay quite a bit more than the state tends to award for two kids but she wants to let that go to court as well. I told her that if we go and get a judgement then she won't see a penny more than I am ordered to pay and I'll have the kids every last second that I can.

The whole thing just sucks but it's much more pleasant than what most of my divorced friends have went through.

As for the love life, I am still settling in with the old girlfriend. Our kids get along great and we get along smashingly. We see each other a couple times a week and we get the kids together every few weeks. It's strange to be with someone that gets you and just lets you exist. I know it changes later but this is the same sort of relationship we had 17 years ago but with less angst.

I've started weight lifting to go with running. It is totally addictive. I can't wait to get to the gym each day. 

LIfe is great.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

Awesome brother. 

As for the STBX, the fight over custody was probably inevitable. Keep moving forward. 

Thanks for the update.


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## LongWalk

The fight is her way of not letting go of her bitterness. it's not for the kids. If she has them more her time to date will be limited, so she is sacrificing herself to blame you for her unhappiness, don't you think?

The divorce she wanted is not the cure.

Didn't she have a prospective partner in mind? What happened there?


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## Kolors

She had one in mind but I have no idea about her social life. I don't really care what she's out doing. I hoped she would take advantage of me having then more to go out and find a part time job but he just dances around it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Kolors

Your wife knows you are happy.

She wants you to pay for that happiness.

Stick to your guns and get your 3 days with the kids.

Keep moving forward.

Expect for her to get angrier when you hand her the divorce papers.

HM


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## LongWalk

I don't think any man could make her happy.


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## just got it 55

Kolors I'm just checking in as I have been invested in your thread like LW & HM64

Good for you keep up the good work

55


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## Kolors

So, I am averaging about a post a month now! Its sort of amazing to not have to vent several times a day about life again.

My monthly update!

So it seems we are at the point of filing papers and arguing a bunch over little things. I texted today to let her know that I was going to see a lawyer next week to get the ball rolling. So far I had refused to pay a penny towards a divorce, it was her idea and all, but we are nearing a year since I moved out. She told me that she actually had an appointment today with one so I was impressed with that. 

Here are the dirty parts these days. She quit her good job with the state to take a job just over minimum wage with no benefits. No insurance, no retirement, no holidays. She also called me to ask me how much more money I could give her each month. Seriously. I told her not a penny more, I didnt have much to spare and I am not living extravagantly. She somehow got the impression that she was going to get about twice what she is actually going to get in support once the divorce is handled. In our state the judge will use her previous salary as the numbers for determining child support since she willingly underemployed herself, and she did it just as the divorce was filed. Anyhow, when its all said and done I should end up paying about 2/3 of what I am paying now which will be nice. 

Our two big divorce arguments are how much I get the kids and the custody agreement. I want joint custody and the kids three nights a week. I have the middle of the week off and she has weekends off. I want it set up so our off days coincide with the days we have the kids. Pretty common stuff around here. She wants to limit me to two nights a week. She also wants to try to get sole custody of the kids. Lucky for me there is a big fathers rights movement in our state. Judges here will award joint custody pretty much every time there is no stand out reason for it to not exist. 

Aside from that the only other thing that has been up in the air is the house she is in. With the pay cut and the soon to be cut to support she will not be able to pay it I am afraid. From what she says she was barely making it as is and has not taken a pay cut of several hundred a month. I have offered to move back into that house and let her find somewhere cheaper to live. It would save me about 400 a month in gas and many hours of sleep lol. I offered to move back in, fix the place up, and sell it in a year or two, splitting the profit 50/50 after I was reimbursed for the expenses of getting it sellable. All in all it would put about 15k in each of our pockets when its sold.

Somehow she thought that was taking advantage of her, who knows?


My life is still good. Still working 5 days a week and playing with the babies on the other two. Still seeing the girl that I started seeing several months ago. That is working out quite well. I am about to put a few f inishing touches on the home that I own outright over the winter so I can sell it in the spring. 

All in all, I am a pretty damn happy guy these days. Lets see how long it takes for this divorce to happen now.


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## LongWalk

So she is going to be very unhappy with you soon.
Why don't you cut back the amount of money you are paying now and insist on having your children three nights now?


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## happyman64

Why did she change jobs now? Why would she take less $$$ at this point in time?


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## Kolors

I won't cut back the money because I'm an honest man and I said I would pay what I'm paying until we got the divorce worked out. My name is also on the mortgage still and I can't have her default on the loan while my name is on it. I'm going to get my lawyer to calculate what he believes the support should be next week when I see him. Then I'll start paying that amount while waiting on her to get papers wrote up. I also said that I would wait till the first of the year to start getting the kids three times a week. Even then we will ease them into it. 

She quit her job because its stressful. She spent a decade talking smack about how could my job be stressful, I sit at a desk all day. Now she knows. I honestly think that she thought she could quit, take a crappy job paying less and then get the courts to get even more money out of me. IM sure some idiot friend advised her that it was a good idea. She gets more bad advice than anyone I know. I try to explain things to her, like this is how child support and custody work here, but she refuses to believe me.

And finally, yes, she is going to be very mad at me very soon. My life is actually pretty good these days. I think the better it gets and the more my daughter tells her about what we do each week the more upset she becomes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

Regret can be emotionally painful, brother. She is starting to feel what her actions have reaped and reality is sinking in. 

Keep doing what you are doing. You continue to prove to everyone you are honorable and a man of your word.


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## LongWalk

You tried to save your marriage. No one can fault you, except stbx.

She was attracted to you because you made her feel secure. When life wasn't perfect she lost faith in you. 

Do you think that part of the decline of your relationship came about because you adapted to her depression?


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## sammy3

Hi Kolors, 

Well as I am happy things are going smoothly for you and life is getting better...but I feel bad for your wife. 

Her life has been pretty crummy for awhile now, as she's been unhappy with you and your, her, marriage for several years now. Yes, you tried to make it work, ... for you... it was what you wanted ... you the wanted the happy wife, the happy family, the happy children. She was unhappy with her lot then and told you about it. You both tried MC and IC. It didnt work. Even thou she had a chance to make it better because you were willing to really try at it... It just wasnt enough. 

Instead of making things anymore difficult for your wife, let it go. The house, if you moved back into it, it was once your both home, so what repairs you make, knowing you are going to sell in a year, share that as you would of anyway. It's not going to break you. It's goodwill. 

She see you as moving on, your life getting better where her's is still a sh*tsandwish. She probably cant figure out wtf, bc she is the one in the beginning that tried to say something wasnt right, but it was you who ended up on easy street.

Yeah you betcha she an unhappy camper, wouldnt you be if your life wasnt going the way you wanted it to, & the women you once where married to is the living the life of rally so shortly after ? 

Everything takes a time to come together, when you look back at where you were a year ago to this year or even 2, you can see such a change. But for your wife it hasnt been as easy. She seems to be still struggling... I'm not suggesting to give in to her on her wants, but I am saying to look around and maybe realiize where she is coming from... she lost her best friend... that all may change, but that path hasnt started yet for her as it has for you, regardless who started the separation. It's past all that now anyway... 

It's hard I know because it is treading a fine line... but so many people are quick to say, "live your life your way !" but, sometims we have to look around a see if how we are "living our life our way." is hurting others... 
imho

~sammy


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## farsidejunky

Sammy:

I understand why she is garnering sympathy from you. But unfortunately her demons are still haunting her. 

She also is setting things in motion (or it appears) to try to take more from Kolors. Who knows the motivation behind it, whether it be out of perceived necessity or for personal reasons. 

But ultimately she chose this. And for all of the aforementioned reasons, as well as Kolors sanity, he really ought to see this through without further entangling himself with her.

I think he should be cordial, fair, and strive to be a good coparent. But at this point he does not owe her more than that. Anything beyond that is charity.


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## Kolors

farsidejunky said:


> Sammy:
> 
> 
> But ultimately she chose this.
> 
> Anything beyond that is charity.


These two statements wrap it up. This is exactly how I feel, and how I have felt since the whole thing started. This is what she chose. She could have stopped the whole thing and made it work. So it may have taken a few years to repair some of the damage but it could have been done. Anything short was just being a quitter.


When this also started she first said that she wanted nothing from me. She was prepared to move on and find a place to live and to support herself. She said that she didnt want a single penny from me ever. That changed fast! It went from, "I hope you help with the bills, I know you won't I cant trust you" to "I need more, the already inflated sum that you are giving me just isn't enough for me to run back to my old job with the same guys that I cheated on you with emotionally, and yes finally physically after I moved."

When you are single you have every right to just say screw it and walk away, there are no real ties. Once you have kids you owe it to those kids to do EVERYTHING to fix the problems before you throw in the towel. IF you do, and there is no abuse or cheating, then you should be on your own, ready to fend for yourself.


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## LongWalk

> "... and yes finally physically after I moved."


:scratchhead:

So, did you determine that after you got set up in the other house, she took her EAs physical?


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## sammy3

kolors, 

I known, I,ve been with you since you came on... And supported you 100% with your struggles. 

Just a lot of times thur all of this sh*t, we say a lot of crap to each other that we really should not. She is regretting so much... Nothing is working for her. 

I was just suggesting when you offered to make this one last attempt to help, the last part knowing the house need the repairs, knowing that was the end, the cut off date so to say, instead of more bickering, whatever was put into the martial home, just cut it across the board, no need to cut her out of the profits from that, as she has probably put things into the house herself to improve in other ways that you havent. Then be done... 

~sammy


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## SongoftheSouth

Kolors said:


> When this also started she first said that she wanted nothing from me. She was prepared to move on and find a place to live and to support herself. She said that she didnt want a single penny from me ever. That changed fast! It went from, "I hope you help with the bills, I know you won't I cant trust you" to "I need more, the already inflated sum that you are giving me just isn't enough for me to run back to my old job with the same guys that I cheated on you with emotionally, and yes finally physically after I moved." QUOTE]
> 
> Yeah always the case - I don't want anything until after and then I want more and more and more....Stop giving her anything until you are forced to do so legally and then make it difficult as you can. She is not your wife, friend, responsibility. She is just a leach. Not a friend, partner or anything. Just a legal burden you need to deal with. Even though you have children together she is nothing more than a legal albatros around your neck right now. Treat her like a piece of gum stuck to your sneeker that you can't remove for as many years as the court says so.


----------



## Kolors

LongWalk said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> So, did you determine that after you got set up in the other house, she took her EAs physical?


Yes. I've been told by several mutual friends that it was a few people. I told her I didn't care to know who or what she was doing so it's not 100% confirmed.

As for the house, I told her I'd sell it and give her half the profit, I'd even put it in the papers.

And for not giving her support, I'd rather
Not go that route. I'm going to get with my lawyer next week about what I should be paying and at least get that part filed while we argue custody and finances.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

Kolors said:


> This is what she chose.
> 
> Anything short was just being a quitter.
> 
> 
> When you are single you have every right to just say screw it and walk away, there are no real ties.
> 
> Once you have kids you owe it to those kids to do EVERYTHING to fix the problems before you throw in the towel.
> 
> IF you do, and there is no abuse or *cheating*, then you should be on your own, ready to fend for yourself.



So Kolors I took a few keys lines from one of your previous posts.

Tell us how you feel about your STBXW now.

And do you feel you tried everything in your power to save your marriage?

HM


----------



## LongWalk

Kolors said:


> Yes. I've been told by several mutual friends that it was *a few people*. I told her I didn't care to know who or what she was doing so it's not 100% confirmed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To her credit she seemed to want to wait until you separated before she started sleeping with other men. She even raised the point of stating that there were to be no accusations of infidelity when you were discussing the split up. This is way better than cheating.

Her decision to sleep with more than one guy comes as no surprize. She wanted novelty, excitement, affirmation, etc. She probably wanted to be chased. However, it is far from certain that she can find a replacement for you. Do single divorced men – presumably those she dates are in their 30s at least – want to marry a woman with young children?

Ironically, since the crisis in your marriage deepened, you hustled and went from part time to full time with a better salary. You recovered your own sense of self, the individual you were before you got lost in the co-dependent aspects of your marriage. Kolors with a better job and his old self confidence, hey, wait that was the guy whom she fell in love with. So, now she may feel torn that you have cheated her out of the husband that she would have been satisfied with.

Asking you for more money is having you back in the positive aspects.

Do you think she is hoping for a guy to rescue her? As long as he doesn't show up. She will lash out at you.

Get those three days with your kids.


----------



## Kolors

I feel like I tried it all and none of it worked. I was replaced emotionally quite a while before any of this started.

I also don't think either of us did anything physical until I moved out. Also, yes if you just leave to leave then you should be ready to fend for yourself, not using your ex as a financial crutch. Make a strong plan and go.

I don't think she is waiting for a man to save her. Then again I've proved that I really don't know what she wants or needs. I'm the wrong person to say they know what she thinks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

The question really is "Can she save herself"?

Not your problem.

But it could be an issue if her front door becomes a revolving one with all her new guy friends.

All you can do is keep an eye on things.

And yes you did try. Hard.

But it takes two my friend.

And your wife wanted out as she so clearly reminds you.

HM


----------



## LongWalk

LostLove's cheating wife was in a hurry to separate because she wanted freedom. Once they were not under the same roof, she dated and slept with 4 or 5 men within the space of less than year. She kept stringing LostLost along by delaying the divorce. Did she have a clear idea that he was to be the B plan? No. She was not so calculating or together.

After all the information about the OM (plural)leaked to him – sometimes because she was so con-dependent she confided in him about her messed relationships – he finally emerged from lonely isolation and began dating. This restored him. Suddenly once he had a girlfriend, his wife was interested in him again. Probably mainly for security.

He stopped posting so we don't know how it turned out. But the essential aspect: the lost person seeking elusive happiness and not knowing which way to turn, that may be the same as your STBX. Quitting her job is a sign of dysfunction.

The more you have your children, the healthier it will be for them and the less easy it will be for your STBX to hide behind caring for them as the cause of her difficulties.


----------



## sammy3

I think you both fell out of love with each other, but your wife acknowledged it first. She realized things were changing for her, that maybe you werent being the guy you were in the beginning anymore. 

So when you became aware of your wifes restlessnes, it sparked you into the mode of "hey we can fix this."

And because you tried to, she also stayed in there with you trying too, but sometimes, when you fall out of love, you just fall out of love. Why now do all wish ill on her? 

The more your lawyers agree, the less $ it wiill cost you. Lawyers can bury the other and take them to the cleaners, but guess what, YOU pay, not the lawyer... 

Make the split as best as you can, you may be grandparents together one day.

~sammy


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Separation on the horizon.*



sammy3 said:


> I think you both fell out of love with each other, but your wife acknowledged it first. She realized things were changing for her, that maybe you werent being the guy you were in the beginning anymore.
> 
> So when you became aware of your wifes restlessnes, it sparked you into the mode of "hey we can fix this."
> 
> And because you tried to, she also stayed in there with you trying too, but sometimes, when you fall out of love, you just fall out of love. Why now do all wish ill on her?
> 
> The more your lawyers agree, the less $ it wiill cost you. Lawyers can bury the other and take them to the cleaners, but guess what, YOU pay, not the lawyer...
> 
> Make the split as best as you can, you may be grandparents together one day.
> 
> ~sammy


Sammy:

Kolors is not trying to "screw" his STBX. He has been rational and fair.

Some posters have been less than cordial in their assessment of this situation. 

I think Kolors has clarity and is pursuing the win/win, despite signs that it may not be reciprocal.


----------



## LongWalk

Hi Sammy,

I don't think we wish her ill. I noted that she did not cheat or at the very least resisted doing it.

She did waffle back and forth and try. At the end of the day she did not want to have sex with him. She kept this up until Kolors also checked out. Kolors posted rather frequently back then because his marriage had entered the death throes. It hurt. Gradually he managed to detach. In part he was lucky that work kept him very busy.

While he was setting up a new single life so was she, but only on one front: her dating life. She did not fly. Kolors gave her the house but she has not secured a way to afford it. Now she wants to use the children to justify what in essence amounts to alimony. To achieve this she is willing to deprive her children of their father. Plus she wants a martyr's robes. She'll go on and on about how her weekends aren't free while he has it easy.

If she should get him down to two days a week and no custody, would she later on try and get him to take the girls more?


----------



## sammy3

Got it... yeah , if the kids werent used as ponds, and she werent fair on that front. 


Sorry it's just so hard on both sides. I just wish them both a better life, as they both are just too young to live in misery for X amount more years. D is ugly, falling out of love is ugly, affairs are ugly, infidelity is ugly, cheating is ugly, it changes us all, in a perfect world I guess it would be nice not to have any of this... but we do, I just wish them both the best and to be able to move on to a better place, as Im sure many others do too. 

~sammy


----------



## Kolors

I feel like I am in a pretty damn good place right now. It's actually making us coctails as I sit here 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Separation on the horizon.*



Kolors said:


> I feel like I am in a pretty damn good place right now. It's actually making us coctails as I sit here
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hard to like this post enough...


----------



## Chaparral

I just finished reading this thread. I was shocked that I actually posted on it. I guess I forgot to subscribe to it.

When it was revealed she was reading this thread, I think you should have been advised to have her start posting.

She had emotional affairs with two people. This was a result of the problems and changes you went through. She alos beleved you were cheating.

I think that was a result of you being open with all your communications...........except the things you deleted because they were "personal.". That also falls into the definition of an emotional.affair if its with a female.

Both of you should have read NOT JUST FRIENDS.

I'm puzzled why you say she wanted a divorce. You repeatedly said she didn't want one and she didn't think it would end up that way.

Are you being treated for ADHD?

Did she stay on zoloft and continue with IC?

You victimized each other but your kids are the real victims here.

I am assuming there are things others know via PMs but it seem when progress was being made around the beginning of the year, you bailed.


----------



## Kolors

The beginning of the year was when our counselor said we should divorce and she agreed. That does lead on to take the hint and go. She also was sleeping on the other end of the house and still running around and texting one of the guys.

My adhd is under control now. No drugs, just lots of exercise to burn off extra energy and learning to stay on task rather than deviate as people need things from me. She quit taking her drugs a month or so after she started. She's still an emotional roller coaster. My doc out me on a xr Xanax pill last year to take before bed so I would sleep instead of staying up, I'm no longer on it either.

And yes, several people are in the know on a few details I didn't want published for sale of the upcoming divorce.

As for the divorce, met my lawyer today and he laid it all out for me. I texted most of it to her and will write it out tonight. If we come to agreement on my having them three days then all that is left is the home and it's roughly 30k in equity to squabble over. I'm more concerned about my kids than money though. Hopefully we can wrap this up fast and start next year divorced.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

sammy3 said:


> Hi Kolors,
> 
> Well as I am happy things are going smoothly for you and life is getting better...but I feel bad for your wife.
> 
> Her life has been pretty crummy for awhile now, as she's been unhappy with you and your, her, marriage for several years now. Yes, you tried to make it work, ... for you... it was what you wanted ... you the wanted the happy wife, the happy family, the happy children. She was unhappy with her lot then and told you about it. You both tried MC and IC. It didnt work. Even thou she had a chance to make it better because you were willing to really try at it... It just wasnt enough.
> 
> Instead of making things anymore difficult for your wife, let it go. The house, if you moved back into it, it was once your both home, so what repairs you make, knowing you are going to sell in a year, share that as you would of anyway. It's not going to break you. It's goodwill.
> 
> *She see you as moving on, your life getting better where her's is still a sh*tsandwish. She probably cant figure out wtf, bc she is the one in the beginning that tried to say something wasnt right, but it was you who ended up on easy street*.
> 
> Yeah you betcha she an unhappy camper, wouldnt you be if your life wasnt going the way you wanted it to, & the women you once where married to is the living the life of rally so shortly after ?
> 
> Everything takes a time to come together, when you look back at where you were a year ago to this year or even 2, you can see such a change. But for your wife it hasnt been as easy. She seems to be still struggling... I'm not suggesting to give in to her on her wants, but I am saying to look around and maybe realiize where she is coming from... she lost her best friend... that all may change, but that path hasnt started yet for her as it has for you, regardless who started the separation. It's past all that now anyway...
> 
> It's hard I know because it is treading a fine line... but so many people are quick to say, "live your life your way !" but, sometims we have to look around a see if how we are "living our life our way." is hurting others...
> imho
> 
> ~sammy


 This is the difference between owning your issues or blaming them on someone else

Keep up the good work Kolors

Have fun always

55


----------



## Kolors

She still thinks I am some sort of bad parent. I can't win in that fight. The custody is the only issue holding the divorce back. We both agreed that we want to keep it out of the lawyers hands if at all possible. We finally agreed that I would start talking to her once a week about the kids and what's going on with them. We were both honest in the fact that we have moved on and it's just a technicality of paperwork between us. She understands the court will set support and it'll be less than she's gettingnow. She has secured refinancing for the house so she will be able to keep it. The equity in the house is still in the air. I told her when custody is worked out then that money will be worked out. 

I will start getting the kids more in a couple weeks when I get home from vacation. Hitting New Orleans for a few days with the new lady friend. Just saw what all she bought for the trip and I'm doubly excited now. 

Life keeps getting better
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kolors

Started our "weekly talks" this week. It was strange sitting down and having a normal conversation with her about life and what all is going on. She feels that if she knows that I am involved actively with the kids and working with them as they grow then she will have less issues with me having my three days a week. 

We have feel into a routine with the new girlfriend and our little families. We both have our children on Wednesday nights and we are both off work so we get them all together and have a crazy good time. It gets a little wild with 5 kids but it is an amazing amount of fun. We have been talking about Christmas and plan to get all the kids together Christmas day to swap some presents and let them all play around then have dinner. It really seems to be a new normal for me and I enjoy it tremendously. 

She and I leave for vacation in a little over two weeks. We are heading out on Saturday and returning Wednesday from New Orleans. She has never been so it will be an experience for her. I got an amazing deal on a suite on Bourbon Street so there shall be some crazy evenings on this trip.

One day soon Ill give a bit more background on her and how this has all come about. For the time being, it is amazing. Its kinda cool to be happy again, I really didnt realize how unhappy I really was.

Oh, and I have a job interview tomorrow. A company found my resume on Monster this week and called me several times trying to get me in for an interview. I am sorta excited about this one, it is in my field and with a medium sized company that is experiencing growth.

Anyhow, off to bed. I have a midterm tomorrow so I need a few hours of sleep.


----------



## tom67

Kolors said:


> Started our "weekly talks" this week. It was strange sitting down and having a normal conversation with her about life and what all is going on. She feels that if she knows that I am involved actively with the kids and working with them as they grow then she will have less issues with me having my three days a week.
> 
> We have feel into a routine with the new girlfriend and our little families. We both have our children on Wednesday nights and we are both off work so we get them all together and have a crazy good time. It gets a little wild with 5 kids but it is an amazing amount of fun. We have been talking about Christmas and plan to get all the kids together Christmas day to swap some presents and let them all play around then have dinner. It really seems to be a new normal for me and I enjoy it tremendously.
> 
> She and I leave for vacation in a little over two weeks. We are heading out on Saturday and returning Wednesday from New Orleans. She has never been so it will be an experience for her. I got an amazing deal on a suite on Bourbon Street so there shall be some crazy evenings on this trip.
> 
> One day soon Ill give a bit more background on her and how this has all come about. For the time being, it is amazing. Its kinda cool to be happy again, I really didnt realize how unhappy I really was.
> 
> Oh, and I have a job interview tomorrow. A company found my resume on Monster this week and called me several times trying to get me in for an interview. I am sorta excited about this one, it is in my field and with a medium sized company that is experiencing growth.
> 
> Anyhow, off to bed. I have a midterm tomorrow so I need a few hours of sleep.


WOW
AWESOME.:smthumbup:


----------



## farsidejunky

Awesome brother. 

I am also glad to see your STBX starting to cordially co-parent. I did not expect that from her this soon.


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## turnera

Make sure you get a written contract before you start that job. My H has taken 3 different jobs with that size company that said 'oh, the contract is in the lawyer's office,' etc. and he got scammed.


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## Kolors

Good idea.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

Kolors did you complete your degree?

55


----------



## Kolors

Two more semesters.


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## Kolors

Well the interview went quite well today. I tend to not be nervous when I go to interviews so it was a breeze.

The company was larger than I had seen and is trying to consolidate operations of three companies that they own. I would be taking over the on site operations so another guy can move into a sales management role. It seems like their company is about to grow quite a bit so my workload would be heavy. 

The guys who interviewed me were the owner and his #2. They said my skills fit exactly what they were looking for. I felt good about the interview so I threw out a high figure for a salary and they didnt seem to bat an eye.

I should know my the end of next week if they choose me. This could be great.


----------



## just got it 55

Kolors said:


> Well the interview went quite well today. I tend to not be nervous when I go to interviews so it was a breeze.
> 
> The company was larger than I had seen and is trying to consolidate operations of three companies that they own. I would be taking over the on site operations so another guy can move into a sales management role. It seems like their company is about to grow quite a bit so my workload would be heavy.
> 
> The guys who interviewed me were the owner and his #2. They said my skills fit exactly what they were looking for. I felt good about the interview so I threw out a high figure for a salary and they didnt seem to bat an eye.
> 
> I should know my the end of next week if they choose me. This could be great.


Kolors That's your job buddy go get it

55


----------



## Kolors

Seems like it. I know they had a stack of resumes. I have the owners number, he texted me a bunch this week. I plan to send him a thank you text later today. 

He also said he had been to my restaurant and was impressed with how well it ran. I gave them some dinner passes while I was there, hope they come in today and are happy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Separation on the horizon.*



Kolors said:


> Seems like it. I know they had a stack of resumes. I have the owners number, he texted me a bunch this week. I plan to send him a thank you text later today.
> 
> He also said he had been to my restaurant and was impressed with how well it ran. I gave them some dinner passes while I was there, hope they come in today and are happy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That was pretty smooth, brother. Sounds pretty promising.


----------



## Kolors

One week till we hit the road for vacation. This week has been full of stress with work, school, and the ex. It is time for several coctails and a long nap.


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## sammy3

55... 

Read Chaparral # 829 recent post. 

There is 2 sides to every story, and sometimes, 3 & 4... 

~sammy


----------



## Kolors

My week keeps getting better. Found out The Wailers are playing at The House of Blues while we are on vacation! Tickets purchased. 

I have my second weekly discuss the kids call tonight. We already had a long talk earlier this week so this one should be easy!


----------



## Oblivious2678

Kolors, great to see things are going well for you! I wish you continued success and happiness!


----------



## Kolors

Thanks! 

Had my final interview today and it went smashingly well! Turns out we have many of the same business contacts and I have more product knowledge than they expected. the president said I would make a great match for their company. The vp wants me, he followed me out to the car today and wanted to firm up my salary need before I left. He said he didn't want to send over something offensive. He also said they would be back with me tomorrow and that he is retiring in 4 years and would want me to transition into his role.

Bad ass day!!!

Spent the day at a local parade with the new lady friend then took all 5 kids for pizza. Our kids mesh really well and range from 14-2 now lol. 

By this time Saturday I will be halfway to New Orleans. I'm so ready for a few days of r&r.

Lift is so amazingly good.


----------



## Kolors

And bam. Landed the job.


----------



## farsidejunky

Love it brother!


----------



## LongWalk

Don't post anything on Facebook. The last thing you need is for some mutual friend to stimulate her appetite for a better deal in D.


----------



## Tobyboy

Big congrats to you Kolors!!! 

Oh and I agree with LongWalk. 
If I remember correctly, your ex used to read your posts, right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kolors

Yea she used to. I believe that she finally quit because she would just get bent the hell out of shape and start in on me about how I vent to the whole world all of my problems. I havent heard anything about it in quite a while so I assume that she has moved past it.

Ill have to tell her soon because I will no longer be able to run our daughter to her ballet school. Technically I have her on Wednesdays so I can line up someone to take her. That someone is the girl I am seeing now. She is off every Wednesday so she has said that she would handle it for me. We get all the kids together on that evening anyway so it saves us a bit of time in the afternoons. I hope to be able to get the kids two week days and one weekend day as soon as this new position starts. I know I will get her several more weekend days a month now so my Ex can work. 

I plan to go ahead with the divorce paperwork myself after I get back. Ill have it wrote up with the custody like we have discussed and Ill drop it off on her doorstep. She can sign it in a month or so when she is comfortable. 

A little background on the girl I am seeing. She was my high school sweetheart. We dated off and on until about a year and a half before I hooked up with my Ex. We had big plans on getting married and settling down but it didnt pan out at the time. We were in two different places in our lives. As luck would have it, we became friends online a while ago and started talking in our free time. It turned out that she was mid divorce about the time that I moved out. A few months later she decided that she was going to move home from another state so her and her kids could be closer to their family. It was really quite strange being face to face with her again after 15 years. Things just fell back into place really fast and we realized that maybe we should have just calmed down and cleared up our drama years ago. One thing led to another and here we are. It is really healthy. We have many common interests and now we are both old enough to ask for what we want and to give each other space. We both also really love kids and both always wanted a huge family. We are 7 deep now everywhere we go 

This time tomorrow I will be rolling up on Biloxi and stopping for the night on our way to New Orleans.

I love my life.


----------



## Kolors

So, that vacation was badass! We made excellent time and wound up in New Orleans incredibly early on Sunday. We spent the first day knocking out her to do list of the normal tourist spots. A few of the graveyards, Anne Rice's house, some book stores, and some historic buildings. We got bumped to a different room on check in so I had a long spazz out with the front desk clerks and the upgraded us to a king suite with a balcony over Bourbon Street. It was AMAZING.

The rest of the time in NO was spent showing her the sights and doing a ton of eating and drinking. We found a place I had never been to eat and it is my new favorite, maybe it was just the company. After that we hit the beach for a bit then drove back home. It was honestly the best vacation in memory, aside from Disney last year. 

Tomorrow would be my 11th wedding anniversary. Theres a bit of suck in that. I have the kids tomorrow and we are taking the whole group to a renaissance faire then pumpkin hunting. 

This seems a lot like what my happy long term married friends do. Wonder if I am on the right path finally.


----------



## Kolors

Divorce time! We have finally agreed to everything. I am expecting the paperwork to be filed in the next week and to be divorced before the holidays. It really is a relief to have this over with now. 

I start full-time at my new job tomorrow. Talk about a total different life a year later.


----------



## LongWalk

Does she know about your new job?


----------



## Kolors

Yes, I had to tell her a few days ago so we could manage the daughters dance schedule.


----------



## Tobyboy

Kolors said:


> Yes, I had to tell her a few days ago so we could manage the daughters dance schedule.


Did she give you that look? You know... ..the ones that says "your life is great and mine sucks" ??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kolors

Every time we speak. She even tells me how it pisses her off that my life is wonderful now.


----------



## LongWalk

But she got laid and you don't mind. She opted out of reconnecting. She even had you saying sex didn't matter. She conned you — it did matter. And then she got some strange and it didn't matter. Ironic.


----------



## Oblivious2678

Kolors, keep that happiness going my friend. Such a great thing to see you have turned your life around in a positive way!


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Separation on the horizon.*



LongWalk said:


> But she got laid and you don't mind. She opted out of reconnecting. She even had you saying sex didn't matter. She conned you — it did matter. And then she got some strange and it didn't matter. Ironic.


QFT. 

Isn't it amazing how someone can delude themselves into thinking one thing or one person can solve their problems? Then when it doesn't work, they try to figure out why they are still regressing or staying the same while others are moving forward. 

She will never change until she figures out that happiness resides in her.


----------



## LongWalk

Yes. Interesting, too, that she doesn't say that she is happy for him. Nor does she say that she loves him. It would even be more honest if she said she wanted to try again.

After sleeping with a bunch of guys LostLove's wife still wasn't happy. She proposed going to MC and trying again.

He never posted what his decision was.

Once the bridges are burned, return is difficult.

Kolors probably can't image going to bed with his ex and getting up to breakfast together


----------



## happyman64

I think Kolors is going to have a hard time even remembering just why the heck he married her......


----------



## tom67

happyman64 said:


> I think Kolors is going to have a hard time even remembering just why the heck he married her......


Who???:lol::rofl:
Keep it up Kolors.


----------



## LongWalk

Must be a terrible moment for the WAW to have finished having sex with the second OM, only to realize that marriage that is gone has not been replaced by a new relationship that is permanent or sustaining. FWB don't mow the lawn, pay bills or care about the kids.


----------



## Oblivious2678

The miserable, constant dreamers somehow need to realize that the grass isn't always greener on the other side. Perhaps, just perhaps, what you have right in front of you is a great thing if you actually nurture it and work at it. SMH at stupid people.


----------



## LongWalk

I don't have an entirely negative picture of his ex. She fell in love with Kolors because he had sense of humor and was an active guy. He seemed to have a life plan for work, so she felt he was a good provider. They had their bad luck. The failures disillusioned her. This pressured Kolors into trying to do things to win her back. This backfired because she did not really want to be a leader. For a woman to be a leader in relationship without emasculating her husband is very tricky. A man who does not feel his worth gets depressed.

Once she started to plot getting rid of Kolors she went back and forth. Why wasn't she resolute? She had no plan. Threatened with divorce, Kolors changed himself and found his own sense of self. He invited her to join him, but she decided to be strong by seeing her plan to dump him through. Freedom awaited her after all. But she did not have a good plan. None of the EA prospects met her expectations.

But she never cheated or at least she wanted out before dating. She deserves credit for that. Kolors doesn't hate her for cheating. She clearly brought up dating after separation became a fact.

Of course for Kolors what goes on in her head is no longer an issue. He is not responsible and he is not anxious to delve in her misery. That's not his job. All he can do now is be a good ex and co-parent, wishing her good luck.

For the sake of his kids it would be ideal if she met someone decent. Staying single for a while is better than a succession of unsatisfying short relationships.

Kolors will probably update a lot less now.


----------



## Kolors

LongWalk said:


> Kolors will probably update a lot less now.


I actually really enjoy this place! I try to update periodically but it was rough with my old job.

Also, I dont believe she ever physically cheated but I know she wanted to. I know, and she admitted, that she had EAs with at least three guys. She was at least respectful and waited until I moved to back it up though. 

She still maintains that she only wanted me to move out for a month or so and then everything would be ok to work out. Ill never believe that. Ever.


Another small update, we agreed to child support today. I had a friend of a friend that works for one of the local judges do the math and give me what the montly payment will be. That was the last piece in the puzzle. Hopefully she will get the papers finished in the next week so I can be divorced by xmas!


On the dating front, things are still going quite well. Some new plans on where our relationship is heading and how we plan to get there. I still find it strange how easily we fell back into each other. Several people that knew us each time we dated said that they arent the least bit surprised that we are back together since we were going to be married a year or two before I met my now Ex.

Still in the gym 5 days a week. The g/f says I am starting to look like a linebacker. I enjoy it so much. Looking forward to the next three days so I can put 3 hours a day in the gym.


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## LongWalk

> Also, I dont believe she ever physically cheated but I know she wanted to. I know, and she admitted, that she had EAs with at least three guys. She was at least respectful and waited until I moved to back it up though.
> 
> *She still maintains that she only wanted me to move out for a month or so and then everything would be ok to work out. Ill never believe that. Ever.*


All that trouble outfitting your other house for separation was only temporary for a month? I don't remember you writing that before. Sounds like a revision on her part or rather she had an idea that she needed freedom to date and figure out her own mind and then maybe rescue your marriage, but she never coherently shared those thoughts with you. It was never clear in her own mind.

But now she is speaking as if your divorce was a mistake and mostly due to your inability to show some patience?

She may half believe this but the bottom line is that her attachment to you is deep but incomplete. How much of a dollar bill can you tear before it is no longer accepted. She slowly ripped your relationship in half and expected some miracle to make it whole.

The conversations you have must end awkwardly.


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## tom67

LongWalk said:


> All that trouble outfitting your other house for separation was only temporary for a month? I don't remember you writing that before. Sounds like a revision on her part or rather she had an idea that she needed freedom to date and figure out her own mind and then maybe rescue your marriage, but she never coherently shared those thoughts with you. It was never clear in her own mind.
> 
> But now she is speaking as if your divorce was a mistake and mostly due to your inability to show some patience?
> 
> She may half believe this but the bottom line is that her attachment to you is deep but incomplete. How much of a dollar bill can you tear before it is no longer accepted. She slowly ripped your relationship in half and expected some miracle to make it whole.
> 
> The conversations you have must end awkwardly.


I remember she was so abstract and half in half out it was painful to read.
Well more depressing.
But that is water over the bridge.


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## Kolors

Yea she totally puts it on me now since I just moved out and moved on. After she said she wanted to be divorced about ten times. After she told me she hated me over and over.

She more acts like the divorce is a surprise. Never saw it actually going to happen.

Ive often felt like she was going to test the waters with the guy she is hooked up with right now and then jump back to me when it failed.


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## tom67

Kolors said:


> Yea she totally puts it on me now since I just moved out and moved on. After she said she wanted to be divorced about ten times. After she told me she hated me over and over.
> 
> She more acts like the divorce is a surprise. Never saw it actually going to happen.
> 
> Ive often felt like she was going to test the waters with the guy she is hooked up with right now and then jump back to me when it failed.


If the kids ask you when they are older just say she wanted out.


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## LongWalk

LostLove's wife never filed for divorce. She just wanted to separate. Not have sex with him while going through 4 or 5 other men. She did not keep them secret very well because she was indiscrete and even dumped the info on him when she was melting down because these STR did not become meaningful. And when he finally pulled the plug and sought divorce she dragged her feet.

At last when he had a girlfriend and some sense of worth she declared that she had suffered an emotional breakdown, i.e., her cheating had been conscious, rational decision making. Right she is, sex is about the needs of selfish genes. The contract to remain monogamous is a warning to us to beware of acting on desire.

Tom,

I don't think there will be a need to explain anything to the children. The emotional truth will be that he was there for them. Of course if his ex vilifies him, he can roll his eyes.


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## happyman64

Kolors said:


> Also, I dont believe she ever physically cheated but I know she wanted to. I know, and she admitted, that she had EAs with at least three guys. She was at least respectful and waited until I moved to back it up though.
> 
> She still maintains that she only wanted me to move out for a month or so and then everything would be ok to work out. Ill never believe that. Ever.
> .


That just shows you how F'D her thinking was. She gave her emotions to these other dudes. Then wanted you out to take it physical with these guys. 

And after she validated herself (scratched her itch) by her selfish acts she would have been ready yo reconcile.

Well you cannot reason with crazy.

I think your gut steered you in the right direction Kolors. I also think your STBXW has issues that only she can fix.

Glad you are happy.

HM


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## just got it 55

Kolors it all water over the falls now

Just live your new life be happy be the Dad you want to be

In short do what you have been doing

I have encouraged you all through out this thread to play to win.

There is now real winning in a family break up but.....You have made the best of it for yourself and your children.

Keep up the progress

Hows the new gig ?

55


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## Kolors

The new gig is going really well. I have found a lot of places to save their company money and made a pretty big impression so far.I found savings of around 23% on a big component that we manufacture and blew a few minds. Hopefully I can keep it up and move into the VPs position when he retires in 5 years. He wants to train me to take it over and wants me to start looking for a staff to bring in over the next 2-3 years.

That is a lot for just a week of work.


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## Kolors

So, monthly post!

I've bought a house! I found an amazing deal that my realtor and my mortgage people can't believe. A woman moved to a retirement home and is selling me her house for about 2/3 of its value. The house is huge! It is also about seven minutes from my office and even closer than that to my kids school. I'll pay almost a third of the mortgage with just my savings in gas, 40 miles a day in the F150 kills the pocket.


So with the new place the new lady friend is going to take a stab at staying with us. She's been staying four nights a week at my place in the county. It's really quite exciting. We should have done this years ago. It's so strange to actually be happy and motivated again. 

I've started doing a little chef working the side again. Each shift I work just becomes more redecorate the house money. It's fun work and it's so relaxing.

Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving! Here's to the holidays, life is good!


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Separation on the horizon.*



Kolors said:


> So, monthly post!
> 
> I've bought a house! I found an amazing deal that my realtor and my mortgage people can't believe. A woman moved to a retirement home and is selling me her house for about 2/3 of its value. The house is huge! It is also about seven minutes from my office and even closer than that to my kids school. I'll pay almost a third of the mortgage with just my savings in gas, 40 miles a day in the F150 kills the pocket.
> 
> 
> So with the new place the new lady friend is going to take a stab at staying with us. She's been staying four nights a week at my place in the county. It's really quite exciting. We should have done this years ago. It's so strange to actually be happy and motivated again.
> 
> I've started doing a little chef working the side again. Each shift I work just becomes more redecorate the house money. It's fun work and it's so relaxing.
> 
> Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving! Here's to the holidays, life is good!


Great update, brother! I'm glad to see things working your way.


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## LongWalk

Good job. Your ex must feel the universe is upside down.


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## Kolors

Yea she is really not happy about any of it. She asked what we were doing when I picked up the kids the other day and totally raged out when she found out we were going to a local christmas event that we used to go to. I'm talking about yelling at the kids and beating on the door as we left. Then she came out and stood on the porch all creepy as we all pulled off. It was the strangest thing I have seen in quite a while.

What I guess i sont get is, if she wanted to be single, why be upset that I've moved on? Why not be happy that th kids are in a stable and loving place when they are with me?

And how, I should close in two weeks, can't wait!


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## LongWalk

Sad for you all that mom is coming unglued.

It seems that she had a distorted idea of what life was all about. A husband had to do amazing things and when life had its ups and downs she began to judge you a failure, which in turn made work more difficult for you. She became moody, undercutting your self esteem.

Once she wanted to junk you she assumed her life was going to take off but it didn't happen. She probably wants you back now but that ship has sailed. You're way happier with your old GF.

All you can do is feel a kind of pity for her. But that just makes her irrate. She is now re-writing history to say that she never wanted a divorce, just some space. 

Are you worried that she is going to have breakdown?


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## Kolors

I don't think she will have a break down, I am just afraid my kids are going to learn two different histories of how the divorce came about. It just feels like I am being set up to be the bad guy in this whole deal because our remembrance of the events that put us here are totally different. She still totally refuses to see the fact that her flirting and texting with other guys, running around to bars and spending the night with a guy, and telling me point blank that she hated me and wanted a divorce, had anything to do with where we are.

Its like I told her a month or so ago, next time you tell a guy you want a divorce, mean it. You don't play around with that word.


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## Tobyboy

Kolors
Continue on the path. Your kids know who the stable parent is. If years from now there's any doubt about what really went down, give them a copy of this thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HobbesTheTiger

Hi!

Great update, glad that things are going better.

Have a VAR on you at all times when interacting with the xw, you don't want to get falsely accused of anything.

Also, document such her behaviour! If it gets out of hand, you can go for more custody.

Are the kids in therapy? I think they'd benefit greatly from it and need it...

Best wishes


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## LongWalk

During your gradual separation there were many opportunities for her to have expressed open and uncomplicated affection for you. Even after you moved out, you were of two minds regarding divorce for a period.

If she had had meal on the table when dropped the kids off or picked them up and had smiled and seduced you into staying the night, she could fairly claim that she tried. She was too proud and too negative. She withheld sex. She is the one who said there had to be an agreement that going outside of the marriage was not adultry.

You have kept a record of her moods and actions here on TAM.

I think HappyMan once wrote that all women were crazy and I am sure that he did not mean it in a misogynistic way because men sure aren't perfect either.

The other day my ex asked me to sell my daughter (17) 's electronic piano to her new boyfriend so that he could give it to his son for Christmas. Basically she is looking for a way to get her share of the value back. But, hey, we've been divorced for over 10 years. This not the time to re-do the property division over one item. It's not rational. And she works as civil servant interpreting difficult paragraphs of the law. She is neither dumb nor incapable. There are two modes, rational and woman.

The selfish gene turns these on and off.

Most men don't understand the female psyche and that is a major cause of marital failure.


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## Kolors

They are all crazy, you just have to find the kind of crazy that matches your kind of crazy!


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## LongWalk

I think that was more or less what HappyMan was getting at.


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## happyman64

Correct. 

Every person has a little crazy in them.

Women are crazy. It is a fact. Their degree of craziness is definable.

They can blame the time of month but that is just nature. So they use that excuse when they do something crazy so they (the woman) is not to blame.

I will share a secret with you Kolors. The key is to be crazier than the one you love.

Not in a bad way but in a way that they rarely will challenge you to do something that they will not do themselves.

Your wife's desire to separate/end the marriage is a perfect example.

My wife knows I am crazier than her but in a good way. She pushes my buttons. I push her buttons.

Only once did I push too far. You learn each others limits and it sort of becomes a boundary for your relationship.

Your wife knows you are crazier than her. She lost you because of it.

Now figure out your new womans level of craziness and use it to get to know her better than your last woman.

And make sure she knows you are just a little crazier than her. Believe me it works.

Let us know how you make out.

HM


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## Kolors

And bam, got my divorce papers.


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## SamuraiJack

Kolors said:


> And bam, got my divorce papers.


Kind of a strange feeling, isnt it?
Sort of an odd cross between "That's it?" and "Hmmm...finally!"

I'm happy for you. 
I am in a similar situation. 
My GF of nearly three years is coming over this weekend to put up and decorate the tree.
All five of us melded into one big semi-sane family.

Dont know if she is seeing anyone or not.
Not even certain I care.

She pulled the "All you needed to do was keep quiet while I got space."
Sorry...I fought for my family.
Now she cant believe how easily she was replaced.

I finally figured out that reason a lot of the women I ran into were so great was because my ex-wife...wasnt.:rofl:


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## Kolors

Yea she still throws up "I just needed space". She got an amazing amount of space .

It is weird being happy and enjoying just sitting around with someone new. Our kids are working out great and we manage pretty well together. 

Just have one line we disagree on in the papers. I sent her a message a couple days ago and haven't heard back yet. Guess I'll see how long that holds things up.

Still waiting on my closing date. If love to be in the new house by Christmas.


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## LongWalk

Kolors said:


> Oh we aren't staying, we split a bit ago!
> 
> So as it appears the divorce will happen in July. I'm going to write everything up for my lawyer to get started on in the next couple days. We have talked most of it through and we seem to have covered all the normal stuff. *She wants something in writing about us being separated now so we do not try to make adultery claims between now and July. I hadn't thought of it but she's right. I believe the person she wants to date will not do anything while we are technically married. * There is also a female that I plan to see next month after she moves back to this state. I'm excited!
> 
> Work is still cruising right along. I got a compliment from the regional director on the impact that I have had on the store that I have been working out of while mine is finished. That's only cool because she rarely does that. My store will be up in around five weeks.
> 
> The kids are doing well. My daughter gets what's going on but really likes having two places to go.
> My son is just a baby and has no clue lol. As long as there are hot wheels and snacks he likes it.
> 
> Going to a tattoo expo today with friends and having everyone over tomorrow for games and grub.
> 
> Life is good.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just a little space?


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## Kolors

Exactly


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## turnera

My brother, for all his faults, is waiting on his divorce to go through, which his wife initiated so she could run off with her high school lover, before he will date anyone. He's told at least 4 women that they'll have to see if they're still interested in several more months, because he simply won't date until the ink is dry.


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## Kolors

Neither of us have that problem. There was no way that I'd have wanted to wait indefinatly for her to get the papers done.


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## turnera

Well, one of the women who's waiting is a coworker of mine and when I told her that, she said that made him that much more appealing. YMMV


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## Tobyboy

It's been awhile Kolors....update?


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## DadOfFour

turnera said:


> Well, one of the women who's waiting is a coworker of mine and when I told her that, she said that made him that much more appealing. YMMV


Because to some women that would show integrity, most women just thing men are like stray dogs that go around sticking their bone into anything that moves.


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## Kolors

Update! Sorry I've been quite busy as of late. 

So I have bought my new house and we have moved in. It's been quite fun actually. The girl that I have been seeing for the last year is a workhorse! Together we have managed to move in and renovate most all of the house (6br). In a weekend we unpacked most all of the house and made all the kids happy.

Life has reached a new normal for me. Being with someone that contributes so much is surreal. Two badass people seem to make a relationship easy. 

I should have my final papers in about two weeks. I plan to get a ring and make it all official shortly thereafter. I really should have done this with her 15 years ago instead of trying to force my ex into a mold.

Work is still good. I've got a raise already and my benefits early. I should be getting another raise next week at my 90 day review.

Really, I'm happy.


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## ConanHub

So the moral of the story is.... Don't try and fvck other men under the mask of needing space.

I guess some people fall for it?

WOW! Hope she likes herself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Yea I'm still a little bitter about it and she still sticks to Her guns of "it was only so I could miss you". 

Lucky for me, life kicks ass.


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## LongWalk

Your ex has her good points. You loved the hopeful girl whom you so impressed. You still loved her when your business venture with your father failed. She started doubting you.

It took the threat of divorce for you to recover your sense of self. She recognizes that the qualities you have were always there. She didn't have the patience to change directions in time. Her mistake, miscalculation, whatever. 

When a spouse jettisons unconditional love, they can hardly demand it later on.


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## Kolors

Grr and today she decides that she wants to withdrawal the divorce papers a week before the judge signs off on them. Stamped and delivered almost a month ago! She decided now that its about to be signed that she doesn't like one of the clauses in it! Already freaking signed it, had it stamped, and delivered to the lawyer.

I didn't even know it was possible. Why on Earth would anyone want to drag it on anymore.


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## turnera

Money.


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## Kolors

It's always money!


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## happyman64

Maybe it's jealousy. You're happy.

You moved on.

And maybe she has not.....


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## Tobyboy

She read your update. 
Doesn't change anything, your happy.... She still sucks!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Maybe she figures you're making more money and it should have been shared. After all, she never really wanted a divorce upon reconsideration of her request for one. 

How did she actually come out and say it without stammering?


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## Kolors

I'm pulling the divorce unless this happens. That was pretty much the conversation. 

I think common sense has kicked in and she's backed off. It should be final by the end of next week.


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## LongWalk

Good to hear.

When did she openly say that she had never wanted divorce. How did she broach the subject? That must have been awkward for her to attempt.


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## Kolors

She started saying that she never wanted a divorce as soon as I had moved on and stopped trying to fulfill her needs. 

I always remind her of all the times spent agreeing with the counselor that we should divorce.


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## farsidejunky

She knows it isn't the truth as well as anyone. But she has to grasp at something because her reality is not reconciling with how her imagination played it out.

Not really feeling sorry for her, but I bet regret is weighing heavily on her. She was supposed to be happy with another man at this point while Kolors pined for her. 

She is still looking for happiness in others.


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## LongWalk

Her regret is that he changed for the better as a result of her rejection. He ended the co-dependency that crippled him.

Blaming him for giving up on her is the ultimate shyte test, which he passes by refusing to engage her.

She humiliated Kolors by closing herself off from him, physically and emotionally. Just reward to move on.


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## Kolors

Lol girlfriend talked to a friend at the courthouse this morning and it appears that my divorce is final tomorrow!


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## tom67

Kolors said:


> Lol girlfriend talked to a friend at the courthouse this morning and it appears that my divorce is final tomorrow!


:smthumbup::smthumbup:


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## Kolors

And boom! Papers signed and received. Party at my place tonight.


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## Kolors

By the judge that is.


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## tom67

Kolors said:


> By the judge that is.


:yay::fro:


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## Kolors

Another month and another post! Live is on the level again, it is quite easy when everything has paperwork to back it up. The new house is coming right alone and the kids now seem like siblings! My relationship is great, it's cool to have an actual partner. 

Life is great, id not change it for the world


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## Tobyboy

Congrats Kolors!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sammy3

Glad your happy Kolors.

~sammy


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## Oblivious2678

Happy for you Kolors! We have come a long way!


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## Kolors

Another month another post! 

Life is still good. The kids have all adjusted and life with the ex is mostly drama free. So far so good.

Running away next month and getting married! Like I've said, should have done this 17 years ago! When you are with the right person things click. Have to travel to Miami for training the first week of May then we are going to New Orleans to do it. 

Happy days.


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## happy as a clam

Kolors said:


> Another month another post!
> 
> Life is still good.


:smthumbup:


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## tom67

happy as a clam said:


> :smthumbup:


:allhail::woohoo:
Wow that is awesome.


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## Tobyboy

Congratulations!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Congrats!


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## farsidejunky

Great update, brother.


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## Kolors

Thanks! I keep plugging along and staying happy. I hope that next year is as good as this one has started. 

Finally got my name off her house and my taxes finished. We are 100% detached now.


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## LongWalk

She must be depressed by the news of your marriage but it was her choice.

All you can do now is be a cheerful co parent. Your new relationship is a source of happiness that will allow you to be more relaxed towards her, unless she insists on being a needy and unpleasant.


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## Kolors

Monthly post!

It may be my last update on this thread since this part of my life closes this week. I leave for vacation tonight and will get married Friday. It's mindblowing how much my life has changed since I came here. I don't dread tomorrow or fear my partner running away. Life is smooth and easy! There will always be friction with my ex but we are being cool and trying to be helpful when needed.

So yea, here's to Friday in New Orleans. New life and old love.

Life is still good.


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## toonaive

Just read the whole thread. Lots of lessons learned, and in the end, very uplifting. Congratulations! Too many of us continue it the trench battle.


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## Kolors

Thanks! All too often i read threads here that went from miserable to worse. I'm glad to have a happy one, Lord knows I didn't expect it


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## farsidejunky

Hey, brother. I thought I would check up on you and see how your new marriage is going.

I think I have mentioned this before, but when I came to TAM at the end of 2013, yours was the first thread I read, so it has stuck with me and you cross my mind every now and again.

I hope all is well.


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