# sole provider = how much say do i have?



## 5280

Gonna try and not make a long post with this. Hopefully bullet points can make this short and sweet.

-we both worked until she got pregnant
-we decided she could stay home and raise kid (eventually 2 kids) the way we wanted and I would provide financially
-now 7 and 3 yr olds and wife has become depressed/anxious/hypothyroid (recently she has discovered)
-gained weight, doesn't clean, tired, no sex, yells and screams at kids
-texts me almost daily while im at work how hard things are
-we've done counseling, sorta helping
-on my time off I take care of kids, play, clean the house a lot
-she sleeps a lot (or at least tries to)
-financially we are good. if we sell our house I will have 200+k in my pocket and zero debt
-I hate my job/profession. I want to be happy. right now I am not happy at work and when I go home im not happy being around her negativity (the kids make it worth it for me though)
-when she complains about how hard the kids are I have offered to stay home while she goes to work which is met with a "im too tired and sick to work"
-ive offered to sell our house and move somewhere where we can buy a house in full in cash and have no mortgage and no debt therefore I can go down to part time to help out with kids more and I can be happier. or also I could find a job that pays way less but is more along my passions in life (ie. it's not a job if you enjoy it right?) but she wants land and horses and animals.
-too tired to work, too tired to clean house, too tired to take care of kids but not too tired to get a horse?

I've given her many opportunities/ideas where she can help provide for the dreams she wants. I have dreams too. I'd love for both of us to achieve our dreams but we both have to work for it. she told me if I went down to part time then there goes "my dream of ever owning a horse". I am thinking she's grown accustomed of this lifestyle.

How much bargaining power do I have here?

thanks!


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## Lila

How long has it been since her hypothyroidism was diagnosed?

Is she taking medications?


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## phillybeffandswiss

Your wife sounds depressed. Is the counseling for her own issues or just the marriage? How was she, before the marriage, with shared responsibilities?


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## 225985

Bargaining power for what? You can divorce her. If the house in your name or joint? If your name, you can sell it and move to a smaller house. 

The horse thing is not going to happen. She cannot even take care of what you currently have and anything new means YOU have to take care of that too. 

The depressed/anxious/hypothyroid needs to get under control. Everything else could be related to that. Her doctor may have to adjust or change her anti-depressants. A med change made a big difference for my wife.


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## rzmpf

5280 said:


> -now 7 and 3 yr olds and wife has become depressed/anxious/hypothyroid (recently she has discovered)
> -gained weight, doesn't clean, tired, no sex, yells and screams at kids


Being depressed, gaining weight, low drive, low sex drive, being tired are all classic symptoms of hypothyroidism.

With proper medication the symptoms should go away, except if there are other simultanous issues (depression or she just does not give a sh!t).


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## WorkingOnMe

Are you afraid to enforce boundaries?


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## 5280

Thanks for the reponses! She is seeing a naturopath for her hypothyroidism and trying to fix her levels, trying to fix her adrenals, etc. I let her spend whatever she needs on her meds and therapy because i want her to be happy and healthy again. Even though she's always been quick tempered and confrontational this whole situation for her has really brought out the worst. I think positively about things whereas she's always thinking of the negatives. She always has issues with our neighbors but they all wave and say hi to me. Just one example of how we approach things differently. I don't want to divorce. I want her to get better but I also don't want her to overdictate..

I'm just wondering if I put my foot down and said, I'm quitting my high paying job that is killing my soul and taking a lower paying menial job that makes me smile and to do that we will buy something more affordable so i can do that... Would that be fair?

I told her that perhaps she could volunteer or work part time at a local stable so she can be around horses which makes her happy. And in the future when we can afford it she can get her horse. I just get eye rolls or snarky comments about how it's not the same thing.


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## 225985

Yes it would be fair. You are her husband, not her ATM.


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## rzmpf

5280 said:


> Thanks for the reponses! She is seeing a naturopath for her hypothyroidism and trying to fix her levels, trying to fix her adrenals, etc. I let her spend whatever she needs on her meds and therapy because i want her to be happy and healthy again.


So she is not getting thyroid hormone replacement therapy? What is she getting?


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## SunCMars

@5280 quote:

She is seeing a naturopath for her hypothyroidism and trying to fix her levels, trying to fix her adrenals, etc.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Is this person she is seeing an M.D. or someone who is affiliated with some other.... group. A health food vendor?

I would go to a specialist, a Medical Doctor who specializes in Internal Medicine for her meds. A licensed dietician could help with her diet. The others are not going to be able to do the blood work and other tests to determine her specialized health needs regimen.


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## 5280

She's been taking her synthroid for years, supposedly her latest levels are within range. She eats a very restricted diet, gluten free, etc. trying to get her health back on track. She's trying to detox as well to clear certain metals from her body. Again this is all from the directives of her naturopath. I will be the first to admit that I should be more involved with this aspect of her life. I have been trusting that she is doing what she feels is right. But I'd like to have her see a medical doctor as well to get that perspective as well.

But back on topic...
Other than that she isn't a very spendy wife so I am thankful for that. I've made the right moves at the right times mostly and thus have put ourselves into a decent position now monetarily. Not rich by any means but not struggling either. As I mentioned in the original post, I don't have any debt besides mortgage and if I sell the house I will pocket around 200k or more. I want to be debt free (don't we all?!). I don't want to get a place where I have to finance another 30yrs. I want to get a small condo (preferably near a ski resort so that I could get some sort of job in that industry). If I could get something with minimal or no mortgage and having zero debt I could then get a job doing something ski related which is my passion. But that would mean she "gives up her dreams" as she would put it. I did get through to her the other day that achieving dreams shouldn't be relied upon others to make happen.

Oh well, I want to just do it but could I live with the repercussions at home if I did? I dunno.

Thanks for the advice all.


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## RandomDude

A horse costs as much as a standard car, if not even more in some cases, not to mention time, they are living animals, and deserve a solid home, not a home already torn apart by issues.


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## MarriedDude

5280 said:


> Thanks for the reponses! She is seeing a naturopath for her hypothyroidism and trying to fix her levels, trying to fix her adrenals, etc. *I let her *spend whatever she needs on her meds and therapy because i want her to be happy and healthy again. *Even though she's always been quick tempered and confrontational *this whole situation for *her has really brought out the worst.* I think positively about things whereas she's *always* thinking of the negatives. She *always* has issues with our neighbors but they all wave and say hi to me. Just one example of how we approach things differently. I don't want to divorce. I want her to get better but I also *don't want her to overdictate..*
> 
> I'm just wondering *if I put my foot down* and said, I'm quitting my high paying job that is killing my soul and taking a lower paying menial job that makes me smile and to do that we will buy something more affordable so i can do that... Would that be fair?
> 
> I told her that *perhaps she could volunteer* or work part time at a local stable so she can be around horses which makes her happy. And in the future when we can afford it she can get her horse. I just get eye rolls or snarky comments about how it's not the same thing.


Do you talk to her likes this?

What decisions do you _allow_ her to make?

Have you heard of Covert Contracts? It's worth a google search...

What else is going on? Because frankly...you sound just awesome..great money...everyone loves you...your upbeat...Yiou can't just be all rainbows and unicorns....maybe you are...just doesn't seem likely


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## WhyMe66

5280 said:


> Gonna try and not make a long post with this. Hopefully bullet points can make this short and sweet.
> How much bargaining power do I have here?
> thanks!


A lot of bargaining power, depending on what state you live in. Remember the Golden Rule; “Him what has the gold makes the rules.” You are right, she has gotten very complacent. Has she started medication for the thyroid? That will only help partially, she has to get up and get going. Once she is in motion it will be easier for her to stay in motion. The longer she lays about the more stagnant she will be. You say you’ve gone to counseling, did you have to drag her there, kicking and screaming? If so that tells me that she is not interested in fixing any problems. Has her attitude gotten more and more negative in general? She may be wallowing in victim hood; “I could have had a career, I could have had a pony, I coulda been a contender…” As much as I hate the idea of divorce you may have to float that balloon. Tell her she is not good for the kids this way-or for you, either. You are doing a job you hate to provide for her and she is not bringing anything to the table but negativity and self-pity. Suggest a trial separation to see how things go.


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## MarriedDude

WhyMe66 said:


> A lot of bargaining power, depending on what state you live in. Remember the Golden Rule; “Him what has the gold makes the rules.” You are right, she has gotten very complacent. Has she started medication for the thyroid? That will only help partially, she has to get up and get going. Once she is in motion it will be easier for her to stay in motion. The longer she lays about the more stagnant she will be. You say you’ve gone to counseling, did you have to drag her there, kicking and screaming? If so that tells me that she is not interested in fixing any problems. Has her attitude gotten more and more negative in general? She may be wallowing in victim hood; “I could have had a career, I could have had a pony, I coulda been a contender…” *As much as I hate the idea of divorce you may have to float that balloon. Tell her she is not good for the kids this way-or for you, either. You are doing a job you hate to provide for her and she is not bringing anything to the table but negativity and self-pity. Suggest a trial separation to see how things go.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> If she really is depressed, that quick and harsh move) could put right into some dark territory...
> 
> I think we need to hear quite a bit more info from OP....Like the rest of the story


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## WhyMe66

> If she really is depressed, that quick and harsh move) could put right into some dark territory...


I am suggesting a trial separation. Sounds to me like she needs a reality check and those tend to be harsh. Also I put a lot of qualifiers in there, not rigid statements.



> I think we need to hear quite a bit more info from OP....Like the rest of the story


Well, we can only go by what he has posted. If he wants to share more my advice would probably change to reflect that. But as it stands now I think that would be the best; let her see life without him around all the time. May snap her back to reality; if it turns out to be bad advice I will give him a full refund…


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## Spotthedeaddog

5280 said:


> Thanks for the reponses! She is seeing a naturopath for her hypothyroidism and trying to fix her levels, trying to fix her adrenals, etc. I let her spend whatever she needs on her meds and therapy because i want her to be happy and healthy again. Even though she's always been quick tempered and confrontational this whole situation for her has really brought out the worst. I think positively about things whereas she's always thinking of the negatives. She always has issues with our neighbors but they all wave and say hi to me. Just one example of how we approach things differently. I don't want to divorce. I want her to get better but I also don't want her to overdictate..
> 
> I'm just wondering if I put my foot down and said, I'm quitting my high paying job that is killing my soul and taking a lower paying menial job that makes me smile and to do that we will buy something more affordable so i can do that... Would that be fair?
> 
> I told her that perhaps she could volunteer or work part time at a local stable so she can be around horses which makes her happy. And in the future when we can afford it she can get her horse. I just get eye rolls or snarky comments about how it's not the same thing.


Lets get one thing straight.

You're not being nice when you "let her spend what she likes on her meds", you're being damn lazy.

(1) You need to get involved in your famillies life. I know it's hard, and you're tired, etc etc (sound familiar??) but really, her interest while along with the kids, is limited by _your_ interest in them, If you can't make the time, it makes them all valueless _in_there_eyes. the kids don't know it yet, because they just suck their energy and morale boosting off their mum!

(2) Things are really bad. If things don't work out with the naturopath, go see a GP. You don't have to give up on the natural ways or sell out to the GP (even if the GP thinks you should). What you're looking for is _any_ change.

(3) Does she sleep well at nights?
(4) What external interest groups does she have? Many women get recharged by social activities, in the same way many men prefer chilling in front of game, self-hobbies (eg fishing).
(5) What is her exercise level?
(6) She is definitely depressed (as mentioned by another poster) accept that, deal with it, and move forward to others that appropriately cause depression.

(7) Given that she's been in the same rut for most of her life, and the kids are moving on, and her own hormones will be dropping with the lack of social and personal stimulation, it's not surprising the spring is winding down. The same thing happens in laboratories in psychological testing in they put living things in monotonous unchanging surroundings, eventually their brain (or equivalent) forces itself to shutdown to handle the lack of stimulation. That has a self-reinforcing effect, because the less brain stimulation, the less it wants to stimulate muscles etc, and the more it tries to protect itself by shutting down.

(8) the negativity and picking fights with neighbours are just symptoms of (7). Depression is self-reinforcing, as it turns "negative results" into personal confirmations. Better to be right and miserable, than accept failure. Better to blame everything or anything else than to face the impossible act of fixing Everything.

(9) From 8 you can see why doing her personal goals is going to get shot down big time?? The bigger the carrot, the more refusal force must be applied. Unfortunately I'm not trained to treat depression. I would consider doing small things that are tangents, that result in small positive stimuli. "Doing things" is a job, a task to be endured, for the depressed - they can no longer see or accept that something may be pleasant and unstressful, or even successfully done. It is better in their brain to reject and not try, or to wall themselves off, than to face more struggle and disappointment because they are all out of hope "juice". So sadly it falls on their loved ones (or professionals) to help the person who has become emotionally crippled, and take them to places where things do work out, don't make people angry, don't leave them behind - and aren't too over the top or impossible. baby steps.
When my depression was at it's worst it helped to make a list each day. I would sit down, take a pen, a notepad, and write a list: it would say (1) write a list. Then I would go make a cup of tea (vascular dilator, vs coffee whie is a vasular restrictor), then I would sit down and cross off any thing I had done on my list. Sometimes that was the only thing I managed to successfully accomplish that day, but it got me through the worst times.
Eventually I got to the point I could make longer term lists, just to get the pressure and emptiness out of my head. That helped me put aside my needs, and deal with my clients - and that helped turn things around for me.

As for quitting your job? Never. You should only move forward, to better opportunity; never backwards to a corner of nowhere to go.
If you apply for a better position, you can describe why you want to move forwards - if you've quit, you'll just look desparate.
If it doesn't work out, you can say to other HR interviewers that you took a chance, it was a calculated risk, but you think it's not really the best fit for you, and you think you can serve their firms needs (of X,Y,Z) better than you can at your current place. If you quit, then hire and want to jump; you look like a serial jobhopper who doesn't fit in anywhere. Or if you quit twice, even more desparate. So learn from your wife - that's what will happen to you if you don't focus on moving forward to new opportunity


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## imperfectworld

I can only relate pretty directly and sympathize. No advice. 

My heart has sunk many times on seeing her thyroid tests come back within normal levels (no changes in her levothyroxine prescription needed).

I've tried every angle for the past 15 years and nothing really works. Encouragement and support for mental, social, academic, work, recreational, spiritual activities or appointments with specialists. I've even conspired with my own female friends to get her out with other women for coffee, shopping, anything. 

Maybe in the end "lazy" is a core characteristic that even the most patient and loving spouse can't surmount.


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## EnjoliWoman

5280 said:


> Thanks for the reponses! She is seeing a naturopath for her hypothyroidism and trying to fix her levels, trying to fix her adrenals, etc. I let her spend whatever she needs on her meds and therapy because i want her to be happy and healthy again. Even though she's always been quick tempered and confrontational this whole situation for her has really brought out the worst. I think positively about things whereas she's always thinking of the negatives. She always has issues with our neighbors but they all wave and say hi to me. Just one example of how we approach things differently. I don't want to divorce. I want her to get better but I also don't want her to overdictate..
> 
> I'm just wondering if I put my foot down and said, I'm quitting my high paying job that is killing my soul and taking a lower paying menial job that makes me smile and to do that we will buy something more affordable so i can do that... Would that be fair?
> 
> ETA: I just read "naturopath" and while I know they can do wonders, she is working with an MD, too, right?
> 
> I told her that perhaps she could volunteer or work part time at a local stable so she can be around horses which makes her happy. And in the future when we can afford it she can get her horse. I just get eye rolls or snarky comments about how it's not the same thing.


Spending that much time unhappy has got to be difficult. I know from family and friends that it takes a LONG TIME to get thyroid medication tweeked just right. And it takes a while to get anti-depressants right.

Horses are excellent therapy animals. Exercise helps fight depression and weight gain.

Get a sitter, pick up takeout and have a real honest conversation about your combined life goals. I think you should be supportive of her desire to have a horse; on the other hand, you shouldn't be chained ot a job that brings no happiness or satisfaction. 

Perhaps you can agree on a timeline - she keeps with doctors to get herself sorted out, you will downsize and work a job you love and with the proceeds of the house and living smaller but happier, you can get a horse in 18 months (or whatever).

I have a friend who lives in an equestrian community - they are Charleston style 2-story homes on very small lots but there is a huge common stable and training rings. Some people own horses there and some don't. Often families "share" a horse - in that one owns the horse but lets kids ride - it helps them with the 'chore' of exercising them and brushing them down. I don't know if there's anything like that where you are.

Your "dream" job - can you do it from the country? I just think a logical give-and-take about what you both want and cooperatively come up with a plan together on how to achieve both could help tremendously. And while owning her own horse may be her final objective, I think working with horses could be really rewarding in the interim but she has to get her medications just right so she can feel like herself again.


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## 225985

OP,

To answer your question, you have 50% bargaining power. You and your wife agreed she will raise the kids and you will work. With that arrangement, decisions are 50/50. You do not get more say because you are the "sole provider". You are providing income, while your wife is provider for raising the children.

Problem #1. My wife is depressed and has to deal with a very major medical condition so I understand somewhat your situation. Let me be brunt. That naturopathic approach is not going to cut it. Your wife needs to be treated by a medical doctor for her depression and her thyroid issues. There is no doubt in my mind that the approach your wife, and you, are taking for her health is grossly insufficient. She is not getting the help she needs. Finding the proper medication for her depression can be and will be life altering. All the symptoms your wife has, my wife had. Right now, this path has your wife being depressed forever and BOTH of you have to deal with the consequences. Like, no sex. Believe me, that situation will continue to make you miserable and more resentful. Been there, done that. 

Problem #2. Your wife's dream of the horse. She has the power to make her dreams come true. If she wants a horse, she needs to get a job to pay for the horse. If not, no horse. If she needs a therapy animal, get a dog and love it. She will not take care of the horse. You will have to do that. If she fixes problem #1, then maybe she can get a job and have her dream come true. If she is just lazy, then no horse. Trust me, having a horse will NOT make her less depressed. Her depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain. 

Problem #3. Your dreams. You need to decide what path you want to take in life. Quit worrying about your wife's "eye rolling". Do you want to be unhappy in your job, your marriage and sex life (lack thereof). If that means changing jobs, then you discuss with wife how to make that happen. 

Google "no more mister nice guy pdf" and read the book No More Mister Nice Guy. It is a free download. You REALLY need to read this book.


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## 5280

Tons of great advice from all kinds of angles. Thanks so much everyone!

I don't want to come on here and rip apart my Wife without her being able to defend herself. Right now she is out with our youngest playing which is great. She was smiling for the most part yesterday which is nice. But then all it takes is one mistake for her to blow up. 

I'm a pretty darn positive person and have been all my life. I will say that I'm feeling the effects of midlife crisis though so I don't want to make any rash decisions. 

I love playing with my kids and would love to be a SAHD. I've mentioned this to her on many occasions with much resistance.

I think my issues here are my unwillingness to be around negativity and anger. It's a vicious cycle. The more I don't want to be around her anger the angrier she gets. 

If I made a huge decision to pursue my dreams which affects us monetarily I can see a future of even more anger and resentment. Are my dreams more important than hers? I would not think so however I want to make an effort to pursue them and I have encouraged her to make an effort to pursue hers as well. Hopefully she will and start her path towards happiness.

However like someone on here may have mentioned I have asked her several times recently what will make her happy right now? Horses? Or getting her health back in order? I guess I should mention that we have chickens, rabbits, cats and a dog already. We had goats for awhile too. Besides the dog she has gathered these animals much to my dismay and without consultation. She does take very good care of them though. They make her happy so I've come to accept it. What little energy she appears to have goes into the care of the kids and animals and if anything it keeps her off the couch all day in front of the TV. She has had a horse in her childhood.

hopefully I haven't gone on too much of a sidebar here as this is the financial forum. Thanks again everyone for the advice and thoughts. Again I hate the thought of divorce specifically for the idea of not having my kids all the time and for the idea that it seems like it will be a financial mess. Several times over the past year though we have come close with her threatening to walk out.

I just want my old wife back.


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## 5280

imperfectworld said:


> I can only relate pretty directly and sympathize. No advice.
> 
> My heart has sunk many times on seeing her thyroid tests come back within normal levels (no changes in her levothyroxine prescription needed).
> 
> I've tried every angle for the past 15 years and nothing really works. Encouragement and support for mental, social, academic, work, recreational, spiritual activities or appointments with specialists. I've even conspired with my own female friends to get her out with other women for coffee, shopping, anything.
> 
> Maybe in the end "lazy" is a core characteristic that even the most patient and loving spouse can't surmount.


It doesn't make me happy to see this happening to others. I too have tried to introduce her to friends of mine. She does have friends though but her friends and my friends are like oil and water so to speak. I don't want to say or assume that mine are better than hers just different. I could go on and on about that but won't. ?

I wish you much luck and happiness!


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## 225985

5280 said:


> I just want my old wife back.


 @5280 we are not going to let you off so easily. DO NOT leave this forum. Keep posting or come back later - not too much later - with another thread. You have a really good resource here. You and your family need the help and advice. A post once and leave approach is NOT recommended. 

I see nothing here divorce worthy. You painted a picture of a good family and good marriage that is struggling but salvageable.

I want to push you further on this depression issue. It could be the common factor in most of your problems. 

Why did your wife go the naturopathic route instead of the traditional M.D.?


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## Blondilocks

You tell her that you will consider buying a horse when she has proven that she and she alone can provide the care it needs. You can't take on any more responsibility. Of course, she'll plan on having the children take care of the horse - that's a no-go.


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## happy2gether

having lived with a hypothyroid afflicted wife for 20+ years I can tell you all you describe is VERY common. just because her levels are normal does not mean it is being treated properly, find an endo that will treat the symptoms and not so much the levels. Synthroid sucks for some folks, with my wife it actually makes her symptoms worse. but after her thyroidectomy her endo has upped it and is slowly taking her off Armour. This frustrates both of us, but she has been unable to find another endo just yet since there are none within 150 miles of us. 

Hang in there, love her, and work WITH her. ultimatums will only make things worse. 

as far as selling the house and taking a lower job in a less expensive area, that is something only you two can figure out. You can find homes and horses cheap if you are willing to move to the country. Our horse was free, and he costs maybe 150.00 a month to feed and stable.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Here's what you have to explain to your wife, holistic is great, but so is "Western" medicine." You need to find a doctor who is trained in both. Sorry, both sides feel they need to be against each other instead of working together.


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## 225985

The Western meds are very pure and many are based on naturally occurring chemicals. Your wife needs to be open minded to consider that herbs are still drugs, but are much harder to dose and regulate and come with impurities that can lead to side effects.

Does your wife want to live the rest of her life unhappy? Have you had a talk with her about getting proper health care?

BTW, if you move, made sure you are close access to the right doctors needed to support her condition.


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## jb02157

None, you have no bargaining power at all. You lost it all when you decided to become the sole provider. Now you will no longer have any control over your life at all, you will have to continue doing that job you hate for a long long time becuase you won't be able to afford to do anything else. Your life will suck, you'll hate your job and hate what you come home to. Everyone is depending on you and there's noone to fill your needs. Your needs no count nor matter. You're nothing but a damn paycheck. Welcome to the world of "soleproviderdom". It really sucks and there's no going back


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## 5280

jb02157 said:


> None, you have no bargaining power at all. You lost it all when you decided to become the sole provider. Now you will no longer have any control over your life at all, you will have to continue doing that job you hate for a long long time becuase you won't be able to afford to do anything else. Your life will suck, you'll hate your job and hate what you come home to. Everyone is depending on you and there's noone to fill your needs. Your needs no count nor matter. You're nothing but a damn paycheck. Welcome to the world of "soleproviderdom". It really sucks and there's no going back


That's definitely how I'm feeling at the moment!!  But I'm gonna try my hardest to break out of this.


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## 5280

blueinbr said:


> OP, I am no longer in that field, but I spent 4 years in pharmaceutical manufacturing with many drugs. I took great pride in knowing that in a small way I helped people who are suffering from illness and pain.
> 
> The Western meds are very pure and many are based on naturally occurring chemicals. Your wife needs to be open minded to consider that herbs are still drugs, but are much harder to dose and regulate and come with impurities that can lead to side effects.
> 
> Does your wife want to live the rest of her life unhappy? Have you had a talk with her about getting proper health care?
> 
> BTW, if you move, made sure you are close access to the right doctors needed to support her condition.


Ironically enough I'm in pharmacy and so was she. She got fed up with it and left. I'm still here. I definitely see the pros of western medicine even though I hate the industry that surrounds it. I want out. And it's gonna mean a big cut in pay to start from the bottom in some other field. I'm just hoping this isn't the midlife crisis in me talking. :nerd:


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## jb02157

5280 said:


> That's definitely how I'm feeling at the moment!!  But I'm gonna try my hardest to break out of this.


Good luck because you're gonna need it. Once in this vortex of crap it's nearly impossible to leave.


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## pineapple

If you're the sole provider, your wife needs to let you do what you need to do to be happy in your job. If it means selling the house and moving, she needs to be willing to do that. Period. I'm sorry she has health issues and wants a horse (and I don't see her taking care of the horse). But, you're going to burn out eventually and then there will be nobody providing.


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## 225985

OP, Have you discussed all this with your wife? I mean a formal sit down non confrontation discussion?


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## bbdad

My situation is similar. Sole provider. Wife stopped working a corporate job with 1st pregnancy. My wife does do the accounting for my company, however. It takes her about 5 hours per week. However, that sometimes is just too much for her. She has always been more the pessimist, but it gets worse at times. I've asked what will make her happy. She can't say. I think some people just truly don't want to be what others consider "happy."

Basically, you have to accept her for what you have. It is really not going to change much - or at least in my experience. You also have to learn, as I did, and it was a tough lesson. Nothing I can do can make another happy if they don't want to be. Focus on your own happiness, while providing and caring for your wife to the best of your ability. There will be ups and downs, but hopefully more ups in the long run.


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## Ynot

OP I can relate as well. In many ways your story was just another chapter in the life I used to lead. When I got married we both worked for the same company but at different offices. Shortly thereafter I got promoted and transferred. So we had to move. She was offered a position at another office closer to me so we split the difference and moved to a small town in the middle. Shortly after that she is pregnant. I wanted our kids to be raised by a SAHM, so I became the sole provider. I drove an hour to and from work for about a year and a half. Then I got another promotion, only this time I got to drive an 1 hour and 15 minutes each way to work. We looked into moving but she didn't want to yank our oldest (my step son) out of his school, so we stayed and I drove. About a year later I got transferred back to my old office so I gained about 1/2 a day (yippee!) of my life back. I hated my job and had hated all along. I felt like a caged animal.
Anyways I almost died and decided I couldn't do it anymore. I switched jobs thinking maybe some place new would be a cure. I just traded a paycheck from one place for a paycheck from a different place. Of course she was happy, she still got to be the SAHM the whole time. Like you, when I got home I was bombarded with complaints and demands, told what needed done and generally treated like a walking ATM machine that could fix things and do chores. 
I finally decided if I was going to have any shot at a life, I needed to start my own business. So I did. I made more money than I ever did working for some corporation and I got to enjoy life. But apparently that was not acceptable to my wife. The time I was spending enjoying things like friends and activities and hobbies, apparently should have been spent making more money to pay for the nicer car, bigger house, new furniture, extravagant vacations etc, that she always dreamed she should have being married to rising star in the corporate world as she had been.
After a while my life became the same as it was before - an endless grind. After the kids left she took a job, but for the most part her jobs cost me money as she often times didn't make enough to pay for the gas she was using on her job. Eventually she found a better paying job and once the kids were gone, so was she.
Long story short - take care of yourself.


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## Starstarfish

Even if your wife fixed her health issues or got a job, where does her dream/goals of having animals fit in with your dream of living in a condo near a ski resort? 

It seems to me that you have really diverging life goals. You've already stated that your goals/dreams are not more important but ... meaning you believe they are. 

So what do you see as the compromise?


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## farsidejunky

OP, there are many, many parallels between your story and mine. To include her wanting horses.

The mistake I made? I did it; bought the land; built the fencing; bought the trailer; bought the horses. 

Then two weren't enough. She wanted more. When we try to find joy in "things", we need the next "thing".

Your wife is unhappy so she has latched onto a dream. 

Honest question, OP. How is your emotional intimacy with your wife?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## 5280

I just recently started having some small sit downs with her about all this. I think she's slowly starting to understand how serious I am about this.

She has said that she will get a job when our youngest gets to school me if she gets better. We are still two years out from kindergarten though so that's something I'm going to have to wait and see about.

Intimacy there is none. I will admit it comes from both sides. I am not attracted to the ugliness inside. She's too tired all the time. We cuddle occasionally after the kids are in bed but that's rare. i can't remember the last time we did any more than that. I think last year a couple times. She does notice that I don't tell her I love her any more. I don't like to lie so I don't say it and she notices. I joke that I'm going to get it somewhere else and she says go ahead although also jokingly. I've never cheated but she has (emotionally not sure physically).

That being said I'm going to try and find someone to help out with the animals and kids one night next week so i can take her out on a date and try to respark the togetherness. 

Ideally we would be living near a ski resort in a modest house on land with horses. Unfortunately that is big time serious money and not a realistic goal at the moment. I say condo because that's more realistic for now. 

Anyone understand private insurance? I've been thinking lately that I could handle my job better if I went down to like two days a week and can be home more for the wife and kids. But curious how much I'd be spending on insurance for a family of four.

Again thanks for all the advice!


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## farsidejunky

5280 said:


> I just recently started having some small sit downs with her about all this. I think she's slowly starting to understand how serious I am about this.
> 
> She has said that she will get a job when our youngest gets to school me if she gets better. We are still two years out from kindergarten though so that's something I'm going to have to wait and see about.
> 
> Intimacy there is none. I will admit it comes from both sides. I am not attracted to the ugliness inside. She's too tired all the time. We cuddle occasionally after the kids are in bed but that's rare. i can't remember the last time we did any more than that. I think last year a couple times. She does notice that I don't tell her I love her any more. I don't like to lie so I don't say it and she notices. I joke that I'm going to get it somewhere else and she says go ahead although also jokingly. I've never cheated but she has (emotionally not sure physically).
> 
> That being said I'm going to try and find someone to help out with the animals and kids one night next week so i can take her out on a date and try to respark the togetherness.
> 
> Ideally we would be living near a ski resort in a modest house on land with horses. Unfortunately that is big time serious money and not a realistic goal at the moment. I say condo because that's more realistic for now.
> 
> Anyone understand private insurance? I've been thinking lately that I could handle my job better if I went down to like two days a week and can be home more for the wife and kids. But curious how much I'd be spending on insurance for a family of four.
> 
> Again thanks for all the advice!


I think you are eyeballing the wrong direction on the sliding scale. I would argue that she is not engaged nor busy enough, and you want to help with that? She doesn't necessarily need a job, but she certainly needs a mission. 

Depression is self hate, often sourced at our own failures. What is she loathing? What dark part of her is so bad that she begins to go down the dark path?

This is what I mean by emotional intimacy. You don't know your wife very well, do you.

And the reason you have stopped saying you love her is because you do not respect her. I also find this intriguing, because your solution of dropping time at work in order to help her will likely lead to you respecting yourself less as well.


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## 225985

5280 said:


> Anyone understand private insurance? I've been thinking lately that I could handle my job better if I went down to like two days a week and can be home more for the wife and kids. But curious how much I'd be spending on insurance for a family of four.


Why do you want private health insurance? In case someone gets sick or injured or needs proper health care?

You have a wife that is depressed. Are YOU satisfied that she is getting best health care possible? All we hear from you is that you "let" her spend money on naturopathy. 

My wife is physically very ill, a chronic condition, and I move mountains to make sure we get her the best care possible, including care for her major depression. It has made a world of different, depression wise. 

IMO, from what you wrote, you wife's work experience has soured her on pharmaceutical-based medical care and so she is settling for something less effective. And insufficient for her. 

Treat what can be a CAUSE of your marriage woes, not just the SYMPTOMS. You are smart enough to know what you need to do, for you and for her. 

Good luck.


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## 5280

I gotta say it is hard to figure out. We come from two different worlds. While both of us grew up poor in the monetary sense I came from a loving family, church, non drinkers, non smokers, no cussing, wholesome friends etc. Her family life saw divorces, cheating, arrests, drugs, etc. her younger brother has been in jail since high school, her nephew is in the same jail, her sister has two kids from two dads neither which are in the picture. They don't talk to each other. Her mom is in and out of her life for months at a time even though she lives 10 minutes away. She complains that her friends are all flakes and never can help her watching the kids or help take care of the animals so we can go on vacation together. She just reconnected with her dad recently for the first time in her life which sometimes she complains about. He seems a nice guy though. We don't have any mutual friends because we hang with two totally different crowds. Hers are more the pot smoker paycheck to paycheck living types mine are not. I'm not saying my friends are better just different lifestyle. I don't approve of her pot usage but have come to accept it. I don't allow her to do it inside the house though. She says medicinal although I'm sure that wasn't the case back in her high school days. I do feel for her though as seems don't ever seem to go her way. Things for the most part have gone my way but I'm a big believer that you create your own destiny by your decisions and behavior and guiding yourself towards good things. I've mentioned this to her many times in as polite a way as i can. However that comes off to her as passive aggressiveness which she hates so I am just being more blunt now which also doesn't seem to be working.

Just today I hugged her for a while and that was nice. She was getting dressed to go to the chiropractor and I asked her if she feels she is getting better at all with the response of "I don't know". I then said if you don't feel you are getting better (physically) are you sure you will be able to take care of a horse? Should I have not said that? Because that got her upset.

Right now one her chickens is sick so she's been spending a lot of effort and time into driving around to get medicine and building a separate living quarters etc. I think it's great that she puts effort into making a helpless creature better again. I suppose if that makes her happy then I should encourage that?

Right now other than typing this I have been vacuuming, sweeping, laundry etc while watching the kids. I will just hope she notices because before I used to tell her the things I did while she was gone which is more of that passive aggressive stuff she doesn't like. I still have a ten hour shift of work to go to later today.


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## 5280

blueinbr said:


> 5280 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone understand private insurance? I've been thinking lately that I could handle my job better if I went down to like two days a week and can be home more for the wife and kids. But curious how much I'd be spending on insurance for a family of four.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you want private health insurance? In case someone gets sick or injured or needs proper health care?
> 
> You have a wife that is depressed. Are YOU satisfied that she is getting best health care possible? All we hear from you is that you "let" her spend money on naturopathy.
> 
> My wife is physically very ill, a chronic condition, and I move mountains to make sure we get her the best care possible, including care for her major depression. It has made a world of different, depression wise.
> 
> IMO, from what you wrote, you wife's work experience has soured her on pharmaceutical-based medical care and so she is settling for something less effective. And insufficient for her.
> 
> Treat what can be a CAUSE of your marriage woes, not just the SYMPTOMS. You are smart enough to know what you need to do, for you and for her.
> 
> Good luck.
Click to expand...

I just meant if I go down to part time at which my company won't provide health care insurance.


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## 225985

5280 said:


> I just meant if I go down to part time at which my company won't provide health care insurance.


Yes, we know that. I was being facetious. My point was IMO that you are under utilizing the current resources available to you through your current insurance to treat your wife's depression. 

You seem hesitant to comment that issue.


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## farsidejunky

5280 said:


> Just today I hugged her for a while and that was nice. She was getting dressed to go to the chiropractor and I asked her if she feels she is getting better at all with the response of "I don't know". I then said if you don't feel you are getting better (physically) are you sure you will be able to take care of a horse? Should I have not said that? Because that got her upset.


No, you shouldn't have. It is a selfish question and statement, or at least is perceived as so by her. It is not asked/stated with her interests in mind, but rather _yours_. 

How about:

"What can I do to help you today?"



5280 said:


> Right now one her chickens is sick so she's been spending a lot of effort and time into driving around to get medicine and building a separate living quarters etc. I think it's great that she puts effort into making a helpless creature better again. I suppose if that makes her happy then I should encourage that?


To a degree. However, if she is neglecting her responsibilities to you or the children in favor of the animals (BTDT), you must put your foot down.



5280 said:


> Right now other than typing this I have been vacuuming, sweeping, laundry etc while watching the kids. I will just hope she notices because before I used to tell her the things I did while she was gone which is more of that passive aggressive stuff she doesn't like. I still have a ten hour shift of work to go to later today.


This needs to stop as well. Look...my wife has depression issues. So do I for that matter, although mine are much less pronounced. Every now and then, I have to spur her. I will tolerate about a week of her being disengaged, lazy and selfish. Then I tell her gently that it is time for her to begin to fulfill her obligations again. Most of the time, that gets through to her. 

If it does not, I stop with my acts of service to her, which involves helping feed the animals. When I stop doing that, she becomes legitimately overwhelmed almost immediately. Funny, but the animals are considered priority while household things can wait. Then she ups her effort level again. 

Strange priorities, but hey, I chose to marry her so I can't really complain.


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## 225985

5280 said:


> I asked her if she feels she is getting better at all with the response of "I don't know".
> 
> Right now one her chickens is sick so she's been spending a lot of effort and time into driving around to get medicine and building a separate living quarters etc.


I can't tell you how many times I heard the "I don't know" comment. It is what a depressed person says. The chickens are her escape from reality. 

So I will ask again, and then stop mentioning it, why is the chicken getting better health care than your wife? What are YOU doing to help her depression - and I mean medically?


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## 5280

I've asked her to go see a medical doctor a couple times before but didn't press the issue after each time being told an excuse why she won't. I will again today and see if I can get her to change her mind.


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## farsidejunky

Why are you asking?

Tell her to take a ride with you, and drive to the doctors office. Then when you get into the exam room, explain to the doctor what your wife has been doing over x amount of time.

The worst that can happen is that she gets mad at you and denies you intimacy...which is happening already, so you really have nothing to lose.

It could be that some part of her may be depressed _because_ you are _not_ taking charge of the situation.


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## 225985

5280 said:


> I've asked her to go see a medical doctor a couple times before but didn't press the issue after each time being told an excuse why she won't. I will again today and see if I can get her to change her mind.


Been there, done that. She is depressed so she does not see the problem. * I had to threaten divorce to finally get my wife to go. *

Word it such that you are concerned for her, not that she has a problem. Don't settle for excuses. If you have to skip one shift to take her (drive her) to the MD, you won't regret it. 

Remember, treat the cause not the symptoms.

ETA: Listen to @farsidejunky My wife would not tell the doctor much, certainly not enough for him to diagnose depression. I was in the exam room too so the doctor listened to me, and my wife had to tell the real story since I was there. Do not expect a depressed person to tell their doctor "I am depressed". It does not happen.


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## Naku

She needs a confident hand. Do what is best for your family, which may be what is best for you, being the sole provider. Here's the rub: She needs someone she can depend on to make the right decisions. She will make them if she has to, but will be angry at you that she was forced to carry that weight, especially in her condition. You can't check every decision with her being the final word. It feels like partners, but if she's ending up making the final decision, even if she seems to want to, she will resent you even as you may mistakenly feel you are doing what will make her happy, or less angry. Be the man in your marriage


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## Evinrude58

5280 said:


> Thanks for the reponses! She is seeing a naturopath for her hypothyroidism and trying to fix her levels, trying to fix her adrenals, etc. I let her spend whatever she needs on her meds and therapy because i want her to be happy and healthy again. Even though she's always been quick tempered and confrontational this whole situation for her has really brought out the worst. I think positively about things whereas she's always thinking of the negatives. She always has issues with our neighbors but they all wave and say hi to me. Just one example of how we approach things differently. I don't want to divorce. I want her to get better but I also don't want her to overdictate..
> 
> I'm just wondering if I put my foot down and said, I'm quitting my high paying job that is killing my soul and taking a lower paying menial job that makes me smile and to do that we will buy something more affordable so i can do that... Would that be fair?
> 
> I told her that perhaps she could volunteer or work part time at a local stable so she can be around horses which makes her happy. And in the future when we can afford it she can get her horse. I just get eye rolls or snarky comments about how it's not the same thing.


She should go to an endocrinologist.
Simple as that. Get her healthy and see how she is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 5280

Ok so I asked her if we could go see a doctor for her anxiety and depression issues and an endocrinologist for her health issues. No was the answer. For her depression she "is taking all the right supplements to get her levels on track" and "seeing our therapist" for it. An endocrinologist can't tell her anything hat her naturopath hasn't already told her. She said she needs "us" to be better for her depression which I do agree with. But this looks like it's not gonna be easy to convince her to see some doctors.

I found a very affordable house in the ski area I like which is still not an unrealistic drive from my current job. While it's not horse property at least , unlike a condo, she can still have her Chickens and garden and indoor pets so not a complete shock to her world? She definitely wants to love away from the city. I kinda just want to go for it but afraid of the backlash.


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## 225985

5280 said:


> Ok so I asked her if we could go see a doctor for her anxiety and depression issues and an endocrinologist for her health issues. *No was the answer. For her depression she "is taking all the right supplements to get her levels on track" and "seeing our therapist" for it. *An endocrinologist can't tell her anything hat her naturopath hasn't already told her. She said she needs "us" to be better for her depression which I do agree with. *But this looks like it's not gonna be easy to convince her to see some doctors.*
> 
> * I kinda just want to go for it but afraid of the backlash.*


In her depressed state she cannot handle your plan and it WILL backfire. 

She is in denial of the depression. "Supplements" are not going to cut it. You need to trade something off to get her to see a MD. If she wants more chickens for example, you agree but only if she sees a MD first. * In my case I traded divorce for my wife going to MD and I never ever regretted what I had to do. I gave her the choice - MD or divorce. She chose correctly.*


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## Starstarfish

Please at least wait til the end of the school year to move. There's like six weeks left, moving the 7 year old (who I'm assuming is in 1st or 2nd Grade) for the last month of school seems unnecessary. 

What are the schools like in the new area?


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## Hopeful Cynic

blueinbr said:


> That naturopathic approach is not going to cut it. Your wife needs to be treated by a medical doctor for her depression and her thyroid issues. There is no doubt in my mind that the approach your wife, and you, are taking for her health is grossly insufficient. She is not getting the help she needs. Finding the proper medication for her depression can be and will be life altering. All the symptoms your wife has, my wife had. Right now, this path has your wife being depressed forever and BOTH of you have to deal with the consequences. Like, no sex. Believe me, that situation will continue to make you miserable and more resentful. Been there, done that.


This is definitely a BIG issue. She has health problems which are affecting her mood and she is not dealing with them effectively. I echo those who are saying do WHATEVER it takes to get her in to see a proper physician. These health issues are sapping her energy, her drive and her motivation.



blueinbr said:


> Problem #2. Your wife's dream of the horse. She has the power to make her dreams come true. If she wants a horse, she needs to get a job to pay for the horse. If not, no horse. If she needs a therapy animal, get a dog and love it. She will not take care of the horse. You will have to do that. If she fixes problem #1, then maybe she can get a job and have her dream come true. If she is just lazy, then no horse. Trust me, having a horse will NOT make her less depressed. Her depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain.


She's just idly dreaming about horses and has no intention of doing any work to make them come true. Should you hand her this dream on a silver platter, she'll mess it up because horses require maintenance, ie, hard work! Then she'll moan and groan that she's still not happy. As long as she's looking to outside sources for her happiness instead of addressing her internal issues, she'll never be satisfied.



blueinbr said:


> Problem #3. Your dreams. You need to decide what path you want to take in life. Quit worrying about your wife's "eye rolling". Do you want to be unhappy in your job, your marriage and sex life (lack thereof). If that means changing jobs, then you discuss with wife how to make that happen.


I don't think you can sensibly pursue either your wife's dreams OR yours until you resolve her health issues. When you have an equal partner in your marriage again, instead of yet another child-like dependent, THEN you can discuss your future together and what directions it could go.



5280 said:


> I don't approve of her pot usage but have come to accept it. I don't allow her to do it inside the house though. She says medicinal although I'm sure that wasn't the case back in her high school days. I do feel for her though as seems don't ever seem to go her way.


And yet another problem. Pot makes some users extremely apathetic. They'd rather sit around stoned and moaning about how their lives suck than get up and do anything to change things around. Your wife may not even have thyroid issues or depression. It may be entirely the pot.

She's resistant to seeing a proper doctor, so I'm guessing she's probably just as resistant to stopping the pot smoking.

Make it clear to her that the horse dream will not happen unless and until she stops smoking pot and sees a real doctor and follows real medical directions to get better. Put the monetary savings from not buying pot and naturopathic 'meds' towards a horse fund. (Pay for the real meds yourself.) Let her see the horse funds slowly growing while she improves her health and outlook on life.

If she isn't willing to find her energy and drive but just keeps siphoning yours away, you do not have a marriage partnership of equals, and you'd probably be justified by prioritizing your dreams over hers.


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## 5280

So today she called me while I'm at work to complain about how she's ready to go ballistic on the kids and I need to find her a babysitter (this happens fairly often). After hanging up on me we text back and forth and I finally tell her some of these things that are on my mind. Her culminating text is if she's the only negative thing in my life then I should just let her go. That's her usual big ender to a discussion. I told her I don't want to do that but maybe we should look at a way to get her lots of alone time away from the kids and me. i work til 2am in the morning so I'm still in bed when they are up getting ready for school. I'm constantly waking up to the sound of her screaming at the kids, cussing at them at the top of her lungs, throwing things and the kids crying etc. I wish I could just change my hours so that I can wake up with them and put them to bed every night so she doesn't have to. Those are the two most stressful times for her. On my days off I do but it kills me to hear this going on. I have expressed my concerns to her about it but it still happens constantly.

She has talked to a lawyer in the recent past when we've gotten this far down in our relationship. Maybe I should start talking to one as well? Every time we have an argument like this she goes to Facebook to vent about me. I wish she wouldn't do that. I'm wondering if she's going there to get validation in herfeelings since she is feeling like a victim? I always refrain from posting or responding. I never post negative stuff about her or us. 

I guess I'm going to "call her bluff" so to speak and start talking maybe about a trial separation. Thing is if we get divorced I don't see any positive outcomes from it other than I don't have to be around the vitriol and anger. But the kids will still be around it when they are with her. I don't want them to accidentally stumble upon her and her friends smoking pot. She's left her paraphernalia lying around many times. I've snapped pictures of it just in case it's something of use if worst case scenario happens. I guess I could hope that we could come upon an agreement with the kids even though I would want full custody. I'm guessing though courts lean towards the mom in most cases no matter who's "fault" it is? 

I just can't believe it's come to this. In my heart I just don't think I want to try and work it out anymore. If it weren't for the kids I would have already been considering it. Yeah I know that is a common theme around here.

I know you are just hearing my side of our story but I'm trying to speak facts and not assumptions so please call me on it if you see it. But based on what I've explained and if it's true she is living in this alternate reality in her head that I and everything is holding her back and not herself how do I sit her down and tell her?


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## Hopeful Cynic

Ouch.

So basically the stay at home mom thing isn't working. At all. She's just not suited for it. And it's probably doing severe harm to the children.

You need more normal work hours, and she needs a job. Those two things would have to happen if you separated, so may as well see if you can make them happen now, and possibly save your marriage.

Frankly, if you separate, it doesn't sound like she'd be very good at parenting all by herself. Get some recordings of that morning screaming and swearing.

How have you not put your foot down before now? If it weren't for the kids, you would have considered separation a long time ago? That's so backwards. Your children are suffering! I think it's about time you chose them, innocent parties who can't look after themselves, over her, a grown adult who should be able to handle herself better. You need to get them away from her before she does them irreparable psychological damage.

Ah, Facebook. The courtroom of public opinion. Yes, it's for validation. The more sympathy she gets, the more she feels like she's in the right and doesn't have to change. Change is hard work.


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## farsidejunky

Cussing and yelling? That is not okay.

I would tell you that my wife used to use statements about divorce, but she never actually consulted. 

However, the last time she did it, I told her I would honor her request, that I would probably not find anyone I loved as much as her, but would settle for someone more interested in meeting my needs. She flipped. She argued. She cried. And she never did it again.

Now to you. Consult an attorney just to be prepared. Always have a back up plan. Next, go see your practitioner and communicate to them the behavior you are seeing, to include what sounds like verbal abuse. But make sure you explain your concern for both your kids AND your wife.

She needs help.


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## jld

She needs support. That yelling at the kids comes from her not getting the support she needs to be patient with them.

Have you two gone to counseling yet?


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## 225985

@5280 Your wife and family need you. I know it is tough on you. Have YOU gone for counseling, not only to help you deal with this but also for advice on how your wife can be helped?

Do not "call her bluff". This is not a game. This is your family and the love of your life is hurting and needs you. She is not coping and she needs you. 

"In my heart I just don't think I want to try and work it out anymore." You are tired and stressed. That is understandable. IMO if you were already done with her you would not be posting here. 

You can get through this. Stay strong and stay here with people that care about you and your family.


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## 5280

Right now she is on the phone downstairs loudly tearing me apart to a friend. She has to know I can hear her.


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## 225985

5280 said:


> Right now she is on the phone downstairs loudly tearing me apart to a friend. She has to know I can hear her.


My wife does that too. Speaks loudly enough that I can hear, then tells people that I "listen" to her conversations.

Without trying to be sexist, this is what many woman do. They will trash us when talking to their best friends.

Don't take it personally. She knows you can hear. That is the point. This may sound odd, but it is her way of asking for help.


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## farsidejunky

Nobody but you gets to decide what you will and will not tolerate.

I would not tolerate my wife playing a childish game of calling friends to trash-talk me knowing I'm in ear shot. 

Are there unmet needs? Clearly. However, I have found that a combination of boundaries and compassion are required.

When they are abusive to you and/or your children? Boundaries and consequences. Otherwise, compassion.

Other than that, it is time for this to get resolved.

"Wife, I want our marriage to be great again. It would take two of us do make it so. What do you need for our marriage to be great again?"

If it is a horse or some other "stuff", I would politely say:

"Stuff is not the foundation of a marriage as I understand it. If the only way forward for you to be happy with me is based on what I can buy for you, then you will leave me no other choice but to move on."





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## 5280

We just had a big talk. Ended with her walking away and crying. She brought up separating a few times during the conversation so I said let's try it then. I could tell that hit pretty hard. She's still crying as I type this. If I back out now of at least contacting someone then she's going to know she can keep holding that card on me. I did get some more info though on how she's feeling and why she's acting the way she does. 

Edit: another long discussion while j was typing....

She basically wants me to love her unconditionally and not to withdraw when she loses her temper at me and the kids. She said she can't help it. She's afraid she will never get better. And she will continue to be angry. 

Maybe I'm hard headed, actually I am pretty sure I'm a little bit hard headed but there's just no place in my heart for anger and negativity. I know the world is not all puppy dogs and roses but if I can remain positive for my kids for my friends my coworkers for the guy at the cash register at the store maybe I can have some sort of butterfly effect in a good way. I try and remain positive with her but it's hard.

She is jealous that I shower the kids with affection even when they are struggling with their anger but I don't with her. I honestly don't have an answer for that. I ask myself why and I don't know. I guess because I love my kids more than the world and I suppose I no longer do her?

I'm still going to talk to a lawyer I suppose.


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## 225985

5280 said:


> She basically wants me to love her unconditionally and not to withdraw when she loses her temper at me and the kids.* She said she can't help it. *She's afraid she will never get better. And she will continue to be angry.


That is your opening to get her to agree to see a MD about her depression.


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## 5280

I went to pick up the kids from school and she was sweeping and cleaning when I left. Got home and she was super sweet to me and the kids. I wonder if this is just temporary? I can't believe she would just change like that at the snap of a finger. I'm wondering if my mentioning of finding a lawyer made something click in her head?


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## john117

We psychologists (*) refer to such drastic changes as the "self preservation neurons firing".

(*) just me actually

Watch out for continued sweetness for a while then ugliness. Stay firm and suggest a good psych and physical workup.


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## farsidejunky

blueinbr said:


> That is your opening to get her to agree to see a MD about her depression.


Nailed it.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

5280 said:


> I went to pick up the kids from school and she was sweeping and cleaning when I left. Got home and she was super sweet to me and the kids. I wonder if this is just temporary? I can't believe she would just change like that at the snap of a finger. I'm wondering if my mentioning of finding a lawyer made something click in her head?


Careful with that.

Is she doing it because she fears losing you? This normally results in a temporary improvement.

Now is the time to reassure her that you don't want to separate, but will not continue the way things are going. 

And yes, she needs to see a MD.

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## Blondilocks

She's jealous of the children. She wants a free pass to yell and scream at the children. Is there anything else this abuser wants? Please do something to protect your children from her torment. If you don't, you're no better than her.


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## farsidejunky

One more thing.

She is essentially asking change in you for her to be happy. 

Think about that.

Happiness comes from within. That is one more piece to use for getting her in front of a MD.

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## chillymorn

You sound like a kind, smart man.

evaluate your situation and realize that its not going to change. 
no intimacy
bashes you loudly so you can hear to her friends
is a pretty crappy mom
refuses to get the proper help from the proper health professionals
could care less about you and your happiness
expects you to care about her happiness

cut your losses and move on. I know its not what you want to hear....You want to try and have the story book ending. But unlike some of the other advice on here I think which by the way you have already bent over backwards to help her and its just one more problem after another. 

when you hit the wall with dealing with all this drama you will be ready. but in the mean time get your ducks in a row. save some money, don't incur any more debt. be the best dad you can be. 

then cut your losses. get a lawyer move on.

good luck


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## 225985

5280 said:


> I went to pick up the kids from school and she was sweeping and cleaning when I left. Got home and she was super sweet to me and the kids. I wonder if this is just temporary?


Did you give her any positive reinforcement or did you just make note and move on? If you have not said anything positive, do it right now.


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## 225985

chillymorn said:


> You sound like a kind, smart man.
> 
> evaluate your situation and realize that its not going to change.
> no intimacy
> bashes you loudly so you can hear to her friends
> is a pretty crappy mom
> refuses to get the proper help from the proper health professionals
> could care less about you and your happiness
> expects you to care about her happiness
> 
> cut your losses and move on. I know its not what you want to hear....You want to try and have the story book ending. But unlike some of the other advice on here I think which by the way you have already bent over backwards to help her and its just one more problem after another.
> 
> when you hit the wall with dealing with all this drama you will be ready. but in the mean time get your ducks in a row. save some money, don't incur any more debt. be the best dad you can be.
> 
> then cut your losses. get a lawyer move on.
> 
> good luck


We are not talking about cancelling cable tv here. This is his family and his life. If you have ever lived with a person that had depression and seen the major change that proper meds can do, you would not be so quick to tell him to "cut your losses". OP owes her, his kids and himself one final push to get her proper meds. IMO, the way he described her depression and what has been done for treatment indicates to me that he has not really gotten involved. If she refuses, he can decide but he should not separate yet. He still has one more thing to try to be the best husband he can be. Mental illness is no less real than physical illness.

OP, move QUICKLY on this now, as you seem to have an opening. Do not delay this, unless you just want to bail.


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## chillymorn

blueinbr said:


> We are not talking about cancelling cable tv here. This is his family and his life. If you have ever lived with a person that had depression and seen the major change that proper meds can do, you would not be so quick to tell him to "cut your losses". OP owes her, his kids and himself one final push to get her proper meds. IMO, the way he described her depression and what has been done for treatment indicates to me that he has not really gotten involved. If she refuses, he can decide but he should not separate yet. He still has one more thing to try to be the best husband he can be. Mental illness is no less real than physical illness.
> 
> OP, move QUICKLY on this now, as you seem to have an opening. Do not delay this, unless you just want to bail.


seems like he has tried only to have her come up with more excuses why she can't do this or that.

medication will only work after they get it figured out and then only if they take it. the problem is they often feel like their better and quit taking it then star the process over again and again.

I stand by my original advice and will add that not to feel bad for putting your well being and happiness to the front. instead of being miserable with someone with mental illness. not everybody is cut out to be able to deal with such situations.


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## 225985

chillymorn said:


> seems like he has tried only to have her come up with more excuses why she can't do this or that.
> 
> medication will only work after they get it figured out and then only if they take it. the problem is they often feel like their better and quit taking it then star the process over again and again.
> 
> I stand by my original advice and will add that not to feel bad for putting your well being and happiness to the front. instead of being miserable with someone with mental illness. not everybody is cut out to be able to deal with such situations.


I am glad you never advised me. My wife resisted going to MD. I got her there. My wife's depression is under control. She takes her pills every single day. I am not miserable. Wife is much better. It was not easy but we got there and I never regretted it for a moment. 

But let's just write off OP as weak and his wife incurable and the kids with divorced parents can shuttle between two homes.


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## chillymorn

blueinbr said:


> I am glad you never advised me. My wife resisted going to MD. I got her there. My wife's depression is under control. She takes her pills every single day. I am not miserable. Wife is much better. It was not easy but we got there and I never regretted it for a moment.
> 
> But let's just write off OP as weak and his wife incurable and the kids with divorced parents can shuttle between two homes.


Glad your wife is doing well,

my advice was based on the posters wifes actions and inactions it appeared to me that he has tried multiple times to have her get help with much resistance and excuses.

with that said I hope your wife continues to do well and keeps taking her meds. I know for a fact that many people taking depression meds go off and on them and it can be very problematic.

its only advice he can decide for himself what advice to take or not take. I personally feel my advice was worth as much as your.


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## 225985

chillymorn said:


> Glad your wife is doing well,
> 
> my advice was based on the posters wifes actions and inactions it appeared to me that he has tried multiple times to have her get help with much resistance and excuses.
> 
> with that said I hope your wife continues to do well and keeps taking her meds. I know for a fact that many people taking depression meds go off and on them and it can be very problematic.
> 
> its only advice he can decide for himself what advice to take or not take. I personally feel my advice was worth as much as your.


You are right of course. OP will have to make his own choice and live with it. It won't be easy for him, either path.


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## chillymorn

blueinbr said:


> You are right of course. OP will have to make his own choice and live with it. It won't be easy for him, either path.


I hear you. life is full of tough choices. seems the older I get the tougher the choices get.


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## 5280

I do appreciate everyone's advice. Yeah I don't want to do anything rash. I'm trying to figure out how I really feel inside about this. She's still being real calm and caring since I told her I was going to contact a lawyer. Gonna talk more about seeing a doctor and see if she is ready to do that yet.


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## WorkingWife

I would insist she talk to her doctor about depression.

There was a time when I was starting my own business and had very few clients - so it was like being unemployed - and I was very depressed. I would easily sleep 12 - 18 hours a day. Later I realized that not working/having a purpose actually depressed me. I've observed this in many others too. She thinks she's too sick and tired to work, but, ironically, her not working may be what is making her sick and tired. It sounds like she may be in a negative feedback loop.

Also, I've never raised children full time but I hear it can be more demanding/depressing than having a job. If she took a job she might perk right up.

She can work toward her goal of having a horse. Just because she may work today doesn't mean she will never retire. Even part time work might be good for her.

Anyhow, You have all the bargaining power you want to have. Things were one way when you agreed that she would stay home and raise the children. Now they are another way. What is happening right now is not working for you. Besides, she is not keeping up her end of the deal - I'm sure that her "raising the children" included cooking, cleaning, running errands, and being in a good mood for you.

I envision something like this:

You: This marriage is not working for me. I am not happy and it is affecting my health, even though I do not complain. I am no longer willing to work in a job I hate and sacrifice my health and peace of mind so I can be the sole breadwinner plus do most of the work around the house. I love you and I want our marriage to work, but this is not working and we need to figure out a new plan that includes my happiness. I know you have not been feeling well, but it's possible that if you take a job it will give you a break from the kids and more adult stimulation and you may find yourself actually feeling better. I also really want you to talk to your doctor about depression.


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## WorkingWife

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Here's what you have to explain to your wife, holistic is great, but so is "Western" medicine." You need to find a doctor who is trained in both. Sorry, both sides feel they need to be against each other instead of working together.


Great point.

I really believe in holistic health stuff and I can tell that exercise, relaxation techniques, meditating, good diet, etc. make a difference. Supplements, I'm not sure. I've used some over the counter "natural" hormone creams with noticeable results.

However... when I finally went to the doctor for my menopause and depression and was prescribed "western" medicines (that are mostly natural plant stuff) the clouds parted and the sun shone down like you would not believe.

All the holistic stuff was and is great and an important part of being and staying well. But it's subtle. When you're clinically depressed or have thyroid/hormone imbalance - um, OMG, all I can say is there's no herbal supplement on earth that can right your ship the dramatic way actual hormone replacement and antidepressants can.

In addition to people feeling natural and western need to be "against" each other, I think some people believe that "if they were eating and exercising right" they would have perfect mental and physical health so it's somehow something they're doing wrong if they are depressed or hormonally imbalanced. Based on my experience, I really don't think that is true. Some people take terrible care of themselves and pay the price, but some people are just unlucky. Why suffer when there is safe medicine that can help?


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## phillybeffandswiss

5280 said:


> Ok so I asked her if we could go see a doctor for her anxiety and depression issues and an endocrinologist for her health issues. No was the answer. For her depression she "is taking all the right supplements to get her levels on track" and "seeing our therapist" for it. An endocrinologist can't tell her anything hat her naturopath hasn't already told her. She said she needs "us" to be better for her depression which I do agree with. But this looks like it's not gonna be easy to convince her to see some doctors.
> 
> I found a very affordable house in the ski area I like which is still not an unrealistic drive from my current job. While it's not horse property at least , unlike a condo, she can still have her Chickens and garden and indoor pets so not a complete shock to her world? She definitely wants to love away from the city. I kinda just want to go for it but afraid of the backlash.


Here's the thing, you've been taught to cater to your woman. Many men on this board are this way and many women give advice based on this antiquated belief. Marriage is about love, but it is also a partnership. When one of you is not pulling their weight, the other may need to step up and take control. Yes, even if it means putting the wife or husband in their place. Backlash? Are you seriously this ignorant of her manipulation? You do not sound like a mutually working couple. My wife is sick and the only reason she was diagnosed is I MADE HER GO. I got tired of her complaining, took her to the doctor and said here's the problem" and walked out. No, she doesn't have clinical depression.

See, depression is awful and a sickness, but IT DOESN'T trump everything. You can still cheat, lie murder, MANIPULATE, work, raise, kids, have sex and love while depressed. It's sad because when someone has a mental condition or a sickness everyone piles on the caretaker. No, you weren't being selfish when your wife, who wants to work less and is depressed, suddenly starts pressuring and manipulating you into buying a horse. I'd have said the same thing AFTER all of the history you've been relating. It's OBVIOUS you refuse to put your foot down. She refuses to try any other alternatives, but YOU are the selfish one when you point out she can't raise a horse with these problems. SHE is the selfish one for not seeking the proper help and manipulating the situation to her benefit. 
So, she asks for things, talks about her sickness and throws all the problems back in your lap. You then do EVERYTHING to please her and now there is resentment on both sides. She depressed so, you need to be a better husband. Yet, you try to please her and you are the selfish guy because you want her to see a medical doctor. You keep accepting this garbage one of you is going to do something you'll both regret.


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## 5280

WorkingWife said:


> I envision something like this:
> 
> You: This marriage is not working for me. I am not happy and it is affecting my health, even though I do not complain. I am no longer willing to work in a job I hate and sacrifice my health and peace of mind so I can be the sole breadwinner plus do most of the work around the house. I love you and I want our marriage to work, but this is not working and we need to figure out a new plan that includes my happiness. I know you have not been feeling well, but it's possible that if you take a job it will give you a break from the kids and more adult stimulation and you may find yourself actually feeling better. I also really want you to talk to your doctor about depression.


This is almost verbatim what I have been telling her. More "out of the house" time would be good for her. She does get out and hang with her friends on my off time at work which is good although I am not a fan of her crowd. Unfortunately, I can't hang with my friends unless I bring the kids with me so it's always limited to who I hang with or what we do. Luckily I love taking the kids to do things. Yesterday I played teeball with the my youngest during the day, took both kids for a bike ride after school, then took them ice skating. I tell the Mrs. I do all this so she can get some rest but deep down I am feeling more and more that I am doing it just to get us away from her. That sucks to think that but I don't know if that feeling will ever go away. 

Long story short yesterday, I had a mandatory meeting at work but only could make half of it because she wanted to volunteer for our daughter's project at school. I stayed at home with the youngest so she could do that. But for missing part of the meeting my boss wanted me to cover a partial shift that night that ended at 2am. So I didn't get to sleep til around 3am this morning. At 6something she asked me if I could make the kids eat and get them ready for school because they weren't listening to her and she didn't want to lose it on them. I agreed but I'm dragging now. Is it fair? I think I'd rather give up my sleep time in exchange for a peaceful morning though.


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## WorkingOnMe

Once she realizes you bluffed about calling the lawyer, it's all over. She'll know you're not leaving and you'll fall for a little niceness. Anyway, if you're not a man who does what he says, how can you be trusted? So, have you made the appointment?


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## 225985

OP, We know that you are physically, mentally and emotionally drained.

Take what ever action you need, but take action. No more talking to wife. If you think she has depression and can be helped, then get her to doctor now. If you think you need to go the route of separation, then start that. Or do both. 

Something needs to shake up the status quo. If you do nothing, you will reach a point of checking out of the marriage and divorce is inevitable. Be active and make the right decision for you and your kids (and your wife) rather than just let the decision be made for you.

Stay strong friend.


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## phillybeffandswiss

5280 said:


> This is almost verbatim what I have been telling her. More "out of the house" time would be good for her. She does get out and hang with her friends on my off time at work which is good although I am not a fan of her crowd. Unfortunately, I can't hang with my friends unless I bring the kids with me so it's always limited to who I hang with or what we do. Luckily I love taking the kids to do things. Yesterday I played teeball with the my youngest during the day, took both kids for a bike ride after school, then took them ice skating. I tell the Mrs. I do all this so she can get some rest but deep down I am feeling more and more that I am doing it just to get us away from her. That sucks to think that but I don't know if that feeling will ever go away.
> 
> Long story short yesterday, I had a mandatory meeting at work but only could make half of it because she wanted to volunteer for our daughter's project at school. I stayed at home with the youngest so she could do that. But for missing part of the meeting my boss wanted me to cover a partial shift that night that ended at 2am. So I didn't get to sleep til around 3am this morning. At 6something she asked me if I could make the kids eat and get them ready for school because they weren't listening to her and she didn't want to lose it on them. I agreed but I'm dragging now. Is it fair? I think I'd rather give up my sleep time in exchange for a peaceful morning though.


Sorry, you really need to fix this garbage. This is ridiculous. How much of this "down time" do you and your wife spend together?


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## Yeswecan

5280 said:


> I think I'd rather give up my sleep time in exchange for a peaceful morning though.



You are giving up more than that brother. Everyone has their limits. You are getting over your limit. If you said to your W you are seeking a lawyer for guidance in D proceedings due to your W lack of wanting to do anything but have a horse then maybe your W will wake up. If you are just stalling than stop and go see a lawyer. Your W needs to become part of the answer and not be part of the problem. That is how marriage work.


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## 5280

So an update. The past couple weeks I decide to try a different approach. I made it a point to hug her first thing every day and try and start a decent conversation. This was well received. We had good talks. I'm clearly in a midlife funk and I explained where I'm coming from and she explained where she was coming from. Good stuff. Things were turning for the 
good. But yet again she lost it on me a couple days ago. Yelled at me in front of her friends. I just pretended it didn't happen. Didn't want to make it more weird for her friends. Last night we had another big argument. She claimed that I used her the other day (we had some relations for the first time in like a year) because she thinks I don't love her unconditionally. I think unconditional love is a tricky thing. There has to be boundaries IMO. I feel I have made it clear that some of her actions I cannot tolerate yet she still does them. Today is Mother's Day and I still had the kids help me make her a homemade card which she loved. She is a completely different person today. Confuses me how she can go from spewing such vitriol one night to being June Cleaver the next morning. 

So I've been thinking about the unconditional love comment and it made me realize that what I've become is codependent. I am realizing now that everything I do is based upon whether it will make her happy or not. Sometimes my only two choices are both wrong. 

Today was a good day (and Mothers Day) so I'm going to try and talk to her about this tomorrow if I can.


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## farsidejunky

Don't. Don't talk to her about your codependency. It serves no useful purpose than to further muddy the waters.

Talk less, do more.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## 225985

Has she seen a real doctor yet abiut her depression or her outbursts?


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## Blondilocks

There is unconditional love for children and pets. Maybe she should have married a dog. Adults are responsible for their actions therefore one spouse can't shyte on the other and then claim they aren't loved unconditionally when forgiveness is taking a little time. Honestly, she needs a shrink and you need a divorce.


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## 5280

So I guess to get back to a financial perspective... Let's say we were to separate/divorce. I earn the money. She's a stay at home mom. I don't enjoy my job or my line of work at all. But starting from the bottom in anything else will be a huge hit monetarily but not mentally. Do I continue to suck it up at work and figure it out later with regards to monetary compensation to the spouse. Or take the hit now and start working somewhere doing something I enjoy? Thing is to do that we need to sell our house now and move to somewhere cheaper which is what we were looking at doing this past Friday. I have no idea how this works. How will the courts see this?

As an FYI, if we sell our house I will have a huge chunk to put down on another house or even in full if we get a cheap enough place. I am trying to figure out scenarios based on who would get the house and where it would be.

Or has anyone divorced and sold their house to get two new separate places?


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## WorkingOnMe

5280 said:


> So I guess to get back to a financial perspective... Let's say we were to separate/divorce. I earn the money. She's a stay at home mom. I don't enjoy my job or my line of work at all. But starting from the bottom in anything else will be a huge hit monetarily but not mentally. Do I continue to suck it up at work and figure it out later with regards to monetary compensation to the spouse. Or take the hit now and start working somewhere doing something I enjoy? Thing is to do that we need to sell our house now and move to somewhere cheaper which is what we were looking at doing this past Friday. I have no idea how this works. How will the courts see this?
> 
> As an FYI, if we sell our house I will have a huge chunk to put down on another house or even in full if we get a cheap enough place. I am trying to figure out scenarios based on who would get the house and where it would be.
> 
> Or has anyone divorced and sold their house to get two new separate places?


Don't believe anyone who answers this question without knowing what state you're in. You'll never get anywhere with website or bar room lawyers. You need a real attorney to ask these kind of questions. In some cases the court may say you're voluntarily under employed and base payments on what you could be making. But that's not universally true. In some states they'll tell your wife she has to get a job and factor that into the calculation as well. But not all states. Every case is different.


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## 5280

Pretty much what I figured thanks! Yeah it's a convoluted situation for sure.


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## 225985

@5280 Why are you asking for financial advice from strangers on a marriage forum? Go see a lawyer, and go see an accountant. Get the best ones you can afford so that you can screw your wife financially as much as possible. Obviously you do not love her since you will not at least try to get her proper medical or mental health treatment. You would rather try a few hugs, then when that does not work say - I told you so - so that you can continue your master plan. But once separation and divorce starts expect her to get crazier and fight your for at least two years - possibility with accusations of abuse - and you will have a more miserable life. Then you will have to deal with a crazy ex for years because of the kids. And when you remarry, your new wife will get sick of the **** that your ex wife pulls year after year. Welcome to your future. Oh, and learn to enjoy paying both child support and alimony while starting at the bottom of your new career. 

So call tomorrow to make the appointment with the lawyer instead of calling a medical doctor.


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## WorkingWife

5280 said:


> So an update. The past couple weeks I decide to try a different approach. I made it a point to hug her first thing every day and try and start a decent conversation. This was well received. We had good talks. I'm clearly in a midlife funk and I explained where I'm coming from and she explained where she was coming from. Good stuff. Things were turning for the
> good. But yet again she lost it on me a couple days ago. Yelled at me in front of her friends. I just pretended it didn't happen. Didn't want to make it more weird for her friends. Last night we had another big argument. She claimed that I used her the other day (we had some relations for the first time in like a year) because she thinks I don't love her unconditionally. I think unconditional love is a tricky thing. There has to be boundaries IMO. I feel I have made it clear that some of her actions I cannot tolerate yet she still does them. Today is Mother's Day and I still had the kids help me make her a homemade card which she loved. She is a completely different person today. Confuses me how she can go from spewing such vitriol one night to being June Cleaver the next morning.
> 
> So I've been thinking about the unconditional love comment and it made me realize that what I've become is codependent. I am realizing now that everything I do is based upon whether it will make her happy or not. Sometimes my only two choices are both wrong.
> 
> Today was a good day (and Mothers Day) so I'm going to try and talk to her about this tomorrow if I can.


IMO, and based om what I have read, the idea of "Unconditional Love" is just a setup for disaster. Marriage is a relationship between equals, not parent/child, or human/pet... It is an *agreement* to love based on certain conditions (the marriage vows.)

Who doesn't want to be loved unconditionally? How luxurious and self indulgent! But there is no such thing as unconditional love. If your spouse cheats on you are you required to love them? If your spouse beats you, are you required to love them? If your spouse spends you into the poor house, abandons you, lies to you, yells at you in front of their friends, are you required to love them?

Is she loving you unconditionally? It does not sound like it.

As a menopausal woman, I really feel for your wife. But she has got to get her rage and emotions under control if she wants to stay married. That is on her. Don't word anything in the disrespect sarcastic manner that I am using here, but when you talk to her, I suggest you give her the clear message:

Sorry sweetheart, but there ain't no such thing as unconditional love. If there was, you'd love me unconditionally and never yell at me or get mad at me again, wouldn't you? Every time you hurt me, you kill some of my love for you and you need to understand, it is running out. The more you abuse me the more I feel I would be happier away from you.

Good luck.


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