# Do you hide?



## jld

Do you hide your sins (mistakes, shortcomings)? 

Do you feel like you need to talk about them, in an effort to help other people avoid making the same mistakes?

Have people held your sin against you once they found out, or have you found people tell you things about themselves that you never would have suspected?

Has it been healing for you?


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## Sandfly

Quite often, when one talks about one's mistakes/fears, I find that lots of people have been through the same thing, and I would never have suspected.

For example, I haven't wanted to fly in an airplane for a long time now, and it just so happened that a woman I was working with felt the same way. She told me what drugs to get off the doctor next time I was due to fly.

I expressed to a different one that I wanted to get away from working for a year and travel, because I couldn't see the point of life just working and working, turns out she was the same way. She in fact already had plans to go off to Thailand and find out... and off she went a few months later.

So something useful comes out of it sometimes - namely, that people are not so different.

Of course, it's generally a bad idea to share such negative things, but the conversation was already in those areas when I joined in.


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## jld

Sandfly said:


> Quite often, when one talks about one's mistakes/fears, I find that lots of people have been through the same thing, and I would never have suspected.
> 
> So something useful comes out of it sometimes - namely, that people are not so different.
> 
> Of course, it's generally a bad idea to share such negative things, but the conversation was already in those areas when I joined in.


Thanks for the reply, Sandfly. One further question, and feel absolutely free not to respond: How do you deal with shame?


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## over20

Jld, you dont' have to deal with any shame.. We ALL sin and screw up..We have a Savior that has erased our sin/shame on the cross. Every single day we can start anew. Every day we are forgiven and can move forward...


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## 2ntnuf

The Origins of Shame | Psychology Today

What We Get Wrong About Shame | Psychology Today

Understanding the Psychology of Guilt


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## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> *Do you hide your sins (mistakes, shortcomings)?
> 
> Do you feel like you need to talk about them, in an effort to help other people avoid making the same mistakes?
> 
> Have people held your sin against you once they found out, or have you found people tell you things about themselves that you never would have suspected?
> 
> Has it been healing for you?*


I am WHO I AM.. I don't try to hide my shortcomings from many to appear this perfect woman to others... I believe in showing some vulnerabilities...our weaknesses, that THIS allows others to feel comfortable with us ENOUGH to open up themselves.... Plus if we are not who we REALLY are but wearing a mask ... so to speak....then how is there genuine "Belonging" or acceptance in that.. it's a facade...

Not that we go up to people and say - I did this , this & this.. but if the conversation carries to such a direction & it feels appropriate to ....to not fear speaking who are are, where we have been...what lessons we have learned along our journey. 

If people don't like the real us... they can go fly a kite... others will.. this really is my attitude....even if I may get hurt along the way... why should I care, because would I really LIKE that person who had their nose in the air rejecting me.. the answer is NO.. I wouldn't! 

Our imperfections make us Human, and being human is what allows many to feel comfortable... For instance...it's like this comparison.... stepping in the doors to an immaculate house....(my Grandmother was like this).. so darn clean you could eat off the floor, but somehow it made you nervous ...what if you put your shoes in the wrong place, didn't put the dishes in the sink the right way, spilled something on that brand new couch ... 

You just feel more "*at home*" when you go to the house - a little more disheveled...seems the laughter comes a little easier...the joking a little louder, you can put your feet up.. it's more comfortable!



> * How do you deal with shame?*


Can I Brene Brown you to death here...you know I already recommend that wonderful book of hers... She is known as the Shame Researcher..

The Gifts of Imperfection: Let Go of Who You Think You're Supposed to Be and Embrace Who You Are:


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## jld

Wow, that second image was really powerful, SA. I have that book on hold at the library.

I thought this topic would take off, but maybe it is too heavy? 

Anyway, thanks again for that book recommendation. Looking forward to it!


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## jld

2ntnuf said:


> The Origins of Shame | Psychology Today
> 
> What We Get Wrong About Shame | Psychology Today
> 
> Understanding the Psychology of Guilt


That last one was good, 2ntnuf. Thanks for sharing.


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## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> I thought this topic would take off, *but maybe it is too heavy? *


 I am a SICK Puppy.. I like Heavy / deep / Controversial... ..it's just that this thread is in the Religious section...not a happening place on TAM !

You will be blessed by that Book - this I am so sure 

The Shame thread needs a Shame you tube Video...









Brené Brown: Listening to shame: TED Talk: Inspiring: Informative: Ideas - YouTube


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## Bellavista

For me it depends on the person and the situation they are in. I don't go around flaunting the fact that I have been bankrupt in the past, and in fact, have only shared that with one person who was going through a similar thing and felt that she was the worst screw up in the world.

I have a friend with a misbehaving teenage daughter. I will share some of the things my kids have done that has caused me to feel shame because she needs to know she is not the only person who feels like she does.

I don't share anything with people who I feel just want to judge and feel superior. It is somewhat healing to share with someone who is in a similar situation or to be able to prevent someone from making the mistakes that you made.


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## 2ntnuf

jld said:


> That last one was good, 2ntnuf. Thanks for sharing.


Didn't know for sure what the problem was. I was thinking you might have been mistaken. Sometimes guilt feels like shame. Figured they would give a good start anyway.


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## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> I am a SICK Puppy.. I like Heavy / deep / Controversial... ..it's just that this thread is in the Religious section...not a happening place on TAM !
> 
> You will be blessed by that Book - this I am so sure
> 
> The Shame thread needs a Shame you tube Video...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brené Brown: Listening to shame: TED Talk: Inspiring: Informative: Ideas - YouTube


Yeah, I guess I thought it might go here under the spirituality heading. I really was not sure where to put it.

Thanks for the link!


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## jld

Bellavista said:


> For me it depends on the person and the situation they are in. I don't go around flaunting the fact that I have been bankrupt in the past, and in fact, have only shared that with one person who was going through a similar thing and felt that she was the worst screw up in the world.
> 
> I have a friend with a misbehaving teenage daughter. I will share some of the things my kids have done that has caused me to feel shame because she needs to know she is not the only person who feels like she does.
> 
> I don't share anything with people who I feel just want to judge and feel superior. It is somewhat healing to share with someone who is in a similar situation or to be able to prevent someone from making the mistakes that you made.


You are brave, bellavista. I am sure it was not easy to go through bankruptcy. And I bet your friend appreciated your empathy.

I'll tell you, when I think of the bad things I have done, esp. the things I cannot change, I feel humbled. And I think about things that, given different life circumstances, I could have done that would have been even worse. And all of that makes me feel a lot of compassion for other people who have done those things.

Okay, so to make this officially part of the religion board , let me say that I think Jesus was a great guy and inspiring figure. He knew who needed compassion and understanding.

I really appreciate the threads here where people are straight up with their struggles. It takes a lot of courage to expose oneself. 

I am not sure anything teaches as well as raw honesty about a personal shortcoming. Those are the stories that grip me here.

Sincere thanks to everyone who has shared those stories.


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## over20

jld said:


> Thanks for the reply, Sandfly. One further question, and feel absolutely free not to respond: How do you deal with shame?


 We all sin. God sent his Son to redeem us from sin and to give us the gift of Eternal Life with Him in heaven through Christ's death on the Cross. 

With that being said shame can sometimes motivate us to change. God gave us His Word, A Love Story to his creation. He also gave us a free will, we can accept his gift of forgiveness and eternal life or reject it. Satan,:FIREdevil: who is very real but not popular to talk about, wants us to live in a life of shame, reminding us of our past mistakes. When one start's to feel ashamed of past mistakes we NEED to remember Christ 's forgiveness. He does not want us to live in guilt. He wants us to seek his Word and obey his commandments. The commandments are His love manual for His creation.:angel3:


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## Sandfly

jld said:


> Thanks for the reply, Sandfly. One further question, and feel absolutely free not to respond: How do you deal with shame?


I am generally shameless.

If someone wants to talk about anything, whether it's sex or haemarroids, then we can laugh about it or have a serious discussion and it's all the same to me.

I have secrets that I wouldn't share, and I sometimes wonder, because I normally sleep-talk, that they would come out,

However, It tends to be complete nonsense when it's reported back to me, such as comparing different colour helicopters and buses, or repeating the word 'cheese' like I've found the answer to an important question in physics...

So if it came down to it, shame doesn't play a big part in life.

How about yourself?


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## jld

I carry it around for 20+ years.

But SA's advice, both here and in pm, has been incredibly helpful. 

God bless you, SA. You are really trying to help heal the world.


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## Mr Blunt

Do you hide your sins (mistakes, shortcomings)? 
*Some of them yes. I am not proud of my sins they are negative.*


Do you feel like you need to talk about them, in an effort to help other people avoid making the same mistakes?
*I do not NEED to talk about them but if it will help others I usually do use them to try and help others*



Have people held your sin against you once they found out
*Most do not. Those few that did I no longer associate with.*


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## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> *I carry it around for 20+ years.
> 
> But SA's advice, both here and in pm, has been incredibly helpful.
> 
> God bless you, SA. You are really trying to help heal the world*.


Awe







....the world... what a stretch ! .... a few friendly people on TAM.... my pleasure... 

Did you ever see this movie Jld... Seabiscuit  ... 

About 3 men & a horse... They're all lost in some way...Owner lost a son, Trainer is more comfortable with Horses over people...the Jockey - been banged around , beat up countless times, left by his parents, wounded in spirit & body ....their paths cross. They use their natural skills & talents to overcome their own demons. In the process, they become a legendary racing team. The Horse was against the odds, he slept too much, he had bad knees, the jockey was half blind, his leg shattered.... very inspiring True story... I have the book...

I guess I just always had a







for the Underdogs... but don't most of us ?? 

Kinda like what the horse Trainer said here >> 

















....


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## SimplyAmorous

Ok.. when you get that book... you will read some of this stuff..
*A little about SHAME..*.









*1.* We all have it..it's universal...the only people who don't experience shame lack the capability for empathy & human connection.... 

*2.* We're all afraid to talk about shame...

*3*. The less we talk about it, the more control it has over our lives.

Shame is the intensely painful feeling or experience of believing that we are flawed & therefore unworthy of love and belonging.

We don't have to experience shame to be paralyzed by it -the fear of being perceived as unworthy is enough to force us to silence our stories.

Shame needs 3 things to grow out of control...secrecy, silence and judgement...When something shaming happens & we keep it locked up, it festers & grows.. We need to share our stories.. *BUT ONLY WITH THOSE WHO HAVE EARNED THE RIGHT TO HEAR OUR STORY*. ....how very important to not throw our pearls before swine - so to speak... you've heard that expression I am sure. 










Then she talks about the importance of "*Shame Resilience*"..

Some points there >> we come to recognize what triggers our shame, understanding the expectations of perfection is flawed, that being imperfect does not = inadequate.....wisdom to only share with those we trust (who has earned that trust)....and when these people speak of shame, they use the word SHAME....they talk about how they are feeling..and ask for what they need...










*Shame* is about who we are, and *Guilt* is about our behaviors.. we feel guilty when we hold up something we've done or failed to do against the kind of person we want to be. It's an uncomfortable feeling. but one that is Necessary...


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## jld

That post is so beautiful, SA. It's right up there with the Jesus post you did yesterday. You are really reading the right books!

I was surprised this thread did not get more responses. I cannot be the only person out there dealing with guilt and shame. And honestly, the advice you have given me is so healing. I really cannot thank you enough.

I hope your posts give other people the guidance and comfort they have given me.


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## FormerSelf

Good thoughts on shame...as it is generally immobilizing...and when shame has power over us in our lives, it is crushing, and we find alternate plans to escape pain and accept counterfeit scenarios for ourselves because we think we don't deserve better. 

First evidence that shame rules your life...is that when you try to live and do something different...you get reminded by something in the past that tries to rob you of the joy of doing something new.


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## 2ntnuf

FormerSelf said:


> Good thoughts on shame...as it is generally immobilizing...and when shame has power over us in our lives, it is crushing, and we find alternate plans to escape pain and accept counterfeit scenarios for ourselves because we think we don't deserve better.
> 
> *First evidence that shame rules your life...is that when you try to live and do something different...you get reminded by something in the past that tries to rob you of the joy of doing something new*.


I can certainly attest to this. It does affect my physical health as well as my mental health. It's all consuming and truly, a death sentence. It's one of the most slow, tortuous deaths imaginable, since we do it to ourselves and it takes a long time to kill yourself with shame and disgrace. Most assuredly, you can die from it.


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## jld

Whew! That was an intense last sentence, 2ntnuf. I hope we are not going to die from it here!

But yes, it does take a long time to get over shame. It takes so much love and positive reinforcement. And time.

I think this site is healing, though. We start to realize that everyone else is carrying guilt and shame, too. We are all imperfect. The trick is for people to be open and honest. That is when we learn from each other.

Thanks for your posts, 2ntnuf and FS.


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## SimplyAmorous

FormerSelf said:


> Good thoughts on shame...as it is generally immobilizing...and when shame has power over us in our lives, it is crushing, *and we find alternate plans to escape pain and accept counterfeit scenarios for ourselves because we think we don't deserve better. *


On this note & taken from a post on my  Vulnerability thread... (again all of this taken from The Gifts of Imperfection- Brene Brown's wisdom, she is known as the "Shame Researcher")....

*She says *...


> "After collecting thousands of stories , I'm willing to call this a FACT: *A deep sense of love and belonging is an irreducible need of all women, men and children*. We are biologically, cognitively, physically, and spiritually wired to love , to be loved, and to belong.
> 
> When these needs are not met, we don't function as we were meant to. We break. We fall apart. We NUMB...We ache...We hurt others. We get sick.
> 
> There are certainly other causes of illness, numbing and hurt, but the absence of love and belonging will always lead to suffering.


There is a section about NUMBING...she spend several hundred interviews trying to better understand the consequences of NUMBING & how "taking the edge off" behaviors is related to addiction...this is what she learned...



> *1*. Most of us engage in behaviors (consciously or not) that help us to numb and take the edge of off vulnerability, pain, and discomfort.
> 
> *2*. Addiction can be described as chronically & compulsively numbing and taking the edge off of feelings..
> 
> *3.* We cannot selectively numb emotions.. When we numb the painful emotions, we also numb the positive emotions.


Another fine point she made was >>



> "Recognizing and leaning into the discomfort of vulnerability teaches us how to live with JOY, Gratitude, and Grace... I'm also learning that the uncomfortable and scary learning requires both spirit and RESILIENCE.










*>>* Resilience is that ineffable quality that allows some people to be knocked down by life and come back stronger than ever. Rather than letting failure overcome them and drain their resolve, they find a way to rise from the ashes. Psychologists have identified some of the factors that make someone resilient, among them a positive attitude, optimism, the ability to regulate emotions, and the ability to see failure as a form of helpful feedback. Even after a misfortune, blessed with such an outlook, resilient people are able to change course and soldier on.


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## 2ntnuf

jld said:


> *Whew! That was an intense last sentence, 2ntnuf. I hope we are not going to die from it here!*
> 
> But yes, it does take a long time to get over shame. It takes so much love and positive reinforcement. And time.
> 
> I think this site is healing, though. We start to realize that everyone else is carrying guilt and shame, too. We are all imperfect. The trick is for people to be open and honest. That is when we learn from each other.
> 
> Thanks for your posts, 2ntnuf and FS.


Well, here is what has happened to me since all of this started. Now, mind you, I did have some issues already, but they have been intensified by these feelings.

-Constant high blood pressure
-Aged in face and body-I have much more gray in my beard and the skin of my face and around my eyes has drooped. I look 10 or more years older than I am. No kidding. Most think I am in my 60's.
-I have had, what I believe to be a heart attack. Haven't been able to get a stress test.
-My digestion has changed. I must eat better to feel better. This normally is more frequent in men at least ten years older, but usually fifteen
-I have pain in my pancreas and liver. My doctor checked me recently. I do not drink or do drugs, although, I have been accused of being addicted to meth, it is not true. I never purchased any of it or did anything. Years and years ago, I did it in the form of what was like a dietary aid looking capsule. I was not addicted to it, but did it a few times over about a year or two. I've never knowingly done it since. Anytime I was asked about it, I said, "NO". 
-I do not expect to be alive at 60. I am 51. 
-my eyesight is poor
-my hearing is going


I do feel like this is a big long, "crying", list, but it is worth mentioning for others to know that it does affect a person negatively. I don't believe I will recover. I think it's just a matter of time. I've never felt the physical and emotional pain that I did at breakup. I wish I could elaborate on what I think is going on, but I'm afraid I would be sued. I have no proof, only reasonable conclusions from what I have read and folks who have been there.


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## SimplyAmorous

2ntnuf said:


> I scatter them around the site because I don't really have a thread about what happened. * I'm not really sure what happened. * I know parts. I know some things I've been accused of doing and some of them are correct. Some are not. *Some, I don't know for sure. I can't remember. I'd have to see proof to fully believe I did them.*


 What does this mean, you have episodes in your life where you don't have memory?



> *Most people I've encountered have held them against me. Some have not. Those are the people I tend to stick with.*


None of us would want to hang with people who act superior and we feel judged , belittled and put down... I can understand constructive criticism when we are hurting ourselves & others though.. but even this has to be done in the right spirit...a spirit of caring for that individual.

But after we've attempted to change our ways, make amends... be that better person... no one would want to hang with someone who is going to throw it back in our faces.. we need to be around "*encouragers*" who can see the best in us, ..be our friend, stand beside us....

I'll never forget this one man who entered our Church yrs ago, his whole life he was a DRUNK... he was messed up, rough, biker. I think a Bouncer for Rock groups for a time...he had many demons in his past... but something led him there...can't remember the story now...but I just loved this guy...I was very touched with the changes in his life... he was so damn Humble... very friendly... he was so excited about coming out of the darkness... almost in a child-like way....so Thankful... and so open about it.... He reminded me of the "Parable of the Prodigal son" story... . I had many conversations with him... then one day ....he DIED.. suddenly...I missed his presence there ...just one of those that stand out in my memory. 










I am sure there was some people who looked at him like -what is he doing here, he is embarrassing...or look where he came from... I didn't do that, I was very touched by how he had changed his life...that man needed encouragers to not judge his past.. but lift him up ....and give hope for making a new life.. 



> It has been healing to write them out and help others. But, *it would be more healing to have proof in hand, and be able to discuss what I supposedly did. * If I did it, I need to make amends and correct my behavior, so it doesn't happen again.


 If you have no memory, let's say from Drinking (just as an example, I don't know your story).....who are the people accusing you - do you trust THEM/ their character to be honest... or do you feel they have ulterior motives, something to gain from making it sound worse than it was??


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## jld

2ntnuf, do you drink or smoke? If you can quit, that can slow down the aging process. Or at least the look of it.

And, please don't just disregard this, consider looking into a low-fat vegan diet. It works almost immediately for lowering blood pressure, healing heart disease, healing type 2 diabetes, and many others. I think it is one of life's truths. I cannot express enough gratitude for it.

Oh, 2ntnuf. It sounds like you have really had a hard time. Please listen to SA's wise advice. Her questions can really provoke thinking and healing in your heart. And I really hope for healing for you.


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## SimplyAmorous

> *2ntnuf said*:
> *-*Constant high blood pressure
> *-*Aged in face and body-I have much more gray in my beard and the skin of my face and around my eyes has drooped. I look 10 or more years older than I am. No kidding. Most think I am in my 60's.
> *-*I have had, what I believe to be a heart attack. Haven't been able to get a stress test.
> *-*My digestion has changed. I must eat better to feel better. This normally is more frequent in men at least ten years older, but usually fifteen
> *-*I have pain in my pancreas and liver. My doctor checked me recently. I do not drink or do drugs, although, I have been accused of being addicted to meth, it is not true. I never purchased any of it or did anything. Years and years ago, I did it in the form of what was like a dietary aid looking capsule. I was not addicted to it, but did it a few times over about a year or two. I've never knowingly done it since. Anytime I was asked about it, I said, "NO".
> *-*I do not expect to be alive at 60. I am 51.
> *-*my eyesight is poor
> *-*my hearing is going


 Everything you have listed here are serious health concerns....







....
How can these HURT anyone else? I can not relate or understand how someone is holding things against you...* over health issues*...what you say about trying some capsule form of meth a few times over a year - many yrs ago... is this the time frame you have the lapse of memory - where accusations have been made or is this BEFORE you even met this person who -you worry may attempt to "sue you"... a lot going on there.


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## 2ntnuf

Nothing yet?  I'll check back later. It's quite a huge amount of information to digest. I'll delete once there is a response or a request by, jld. No problem.





> what you say about trying some capsule form of meth a few times over a year - many yrs ago... is this the time frame you have the lapse of memory - where accusations have been made or is this BEFORE you even met this person who -you worry may attempt to "sue you"... a lot going on there.


No, that was more than twenty years before I met x2. It was a non-issue when I met x2.


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## 2ntnuf

jld said:


> 2ntnuf, do you drink or smoke? If you can quit, that can slow down the aging process. Or at least the look of it.
> 
> And, please don't just disregard this, consider looking into a low-fat vegan diet. It works almost immediately for lowering blood pressure, healing heart disease, healing type 2 diabetes, and many others. I think it is one of life's truths. I cannot express enough gratitude for it.
> 
> Oh, 2ntnuf. It sounds like you have really had a hard time. Please listen to SA's wise advice. Her questions can really provoke thinking and healing in your heart. And I really hope for healing for you.


I agree with you. I do not drink. I do smoke. It's a terrible addiction and I need to quit.

This aging I've mentioned is what has happened in the last........a little less than three years. It came upon me suddenly, after all of the crap I went through.


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## SimplyAmorous

I read your post 2ntnuf......if those things were done TO YOU unbeknownst to you....WOW... that is one story that could make a twisted Hollywood film...and a lesson to be very very careful the sort of people we get entangled with... even a wayward family member can destruct a life - if boundaries are not carefully put to keep them & their rift raft friends out..

You talk about X2 as though she was the light of your life upon meeting...you loved her so much.... but sounds she really got messed up or had one heck of a Mid life crisis during Peri years..that led to so much of what might have taken place here (avoiding giving those details to protect your identity) as I would have deleted that rather quickly [email protected]#$%^ 

Almost sounds like a Conspiracy was done *against you*....and even if 50% of that is NOT true, none of those people you spoken of.... given what you have shared -deserved to be *TRUSTED.*.. so will you have the answers...this proof... I say NOT...

I would ask you this.. what is your Parents, siblings, relatives HEALTH LIKE ? .. this is no proof of course..... but if every genetic relative you come from has no one health issue as you describe coming upon you..it surely seems MORE suspicious to say the least. Now if others have pancreas & liver issues as early as their 50's, even 60's... there could be a genetic link. 

Sounds you had full transparency with her at one point, how she was able to share with a family member your password -this in the wrong hands....could destroy someone's character... masquerading as YOU.. ...... Very very Low, dam*ing in fact.... if this was engaged in. Even if this person didn't like you, there is no excuse to further Dirt someone like that. 

I do believe such awful things can HAPPEN to people, it's not only in the movies... 

We know of a person ...she used to be a friend of ours, husband never cared for her too much... one of the more WILD ones, but I've known her like forever....I don't know how she did this, but so we've heard she got into another friends email account also a BF she was mad at...(he let her stay at his house)....causing a lot of trouble for these people.....(not to the degree of your story) but just such a low down thing to do.

When she was at our house, I was diligent to NEVER share too much personal info with her, due to her character flaws....She ended up getting  at me over something that others felt was totally stupid...fixing up a guy friend she had a crush on who wasn't interested in her - with another friend... she felt I betrayed her .....didn't work out anyway... but her hate for me remained.... That's Ok.....Maybe I am even thankful in some ways. 

As it always worried me the things she did to others when she gets angry...I think I have been lucky, the most she has done to screw with me is talk behind my back.. 

This I can live with... for those who know us both...well.. they just know, often telling me what she has said.. I found it even amusing.. in the scheme of life, it didn't hurt me.. but the things YOU are discussing... Oh my... 

How do you forgive a meditated Betrayal LIKE THAT ?? I don't even know!


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## 2ntnuf

Thank you, by the way, for trying.


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## jld

That is awful, 2ntnuf. That is abuse. No one deserves to be treated that way. Again, that is just awful.

I am so sorry. No wonder you have trouble putting things out of your mind.

Do you have a support system outside of TAM? TAM is great, but we all need IRL support, too.


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## 2ntnuf

No. TAM is my support group. I get better, and more thoughtful and meaningful support from TAM members. I guess you haven't seen my NYE thread where I've stated I love my closest TAM friends. 

By the way, the smoke I readily admit being addicted to is tobacco(nicotine), nothing else.


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## jld

I'm so sorry, 2ntnuf. I think it is great you have close friends here. It really is a community. Sometimes we are just grateful for what we have. And TAM gives us much to be grateful for.

Has anything worked for quitting smoking?


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## 2ntnuf

jld said:


> I'm so sorry, 2ntnuf. I think it is great you have close friends here. It really is a community. Sometimes we are just grateful for what we have. And TAM gives us much to be grateful for.
> 
> Has anything worked for quitting smoking?


Once I get a little hope in my life, I will most likely be able to muster the strength to quit. That's the first step to all improvement. I just don't have that anymore. I live from day to day. I don't plan or do anything. I really am a sad case. It's ruined the man in me, and I really cannot find a good enough reason to bring him back. I keep going to bed and waking up in the morning. There must be a reason I'm still doing that. I don't, yet, know what it is, though.


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## jld

2ntnuf said:


> Once I get a little hope in my life, I will most likely be able to muster the strength to quit. That's the first step to all improvement. I just don't have that anymore. I live from day to day. I don't plan or do anything. I really am a sad case. It's ruined the man in me, and I really cannot find a good enough reason to bring him back. I keep going to bed and waking up in the morning. There must be a reason I'm still doing that. I don't, yet, know what it is, though.


What do you think could give you hope, 2ntnuf?


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## 2ntnuf

jld said:


> What do you think could give you hope, 2ntnuf?


I don't know. All my dreams are gone.


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## jld

2ntnuf said:


> I don't know. All my dreams are gone.


All your dreams are gone?


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## 2ntnuf

I never had big dreams. I never thought I'd be living in a $450,000.00 house on ten acres in the county or anything like that. I just wanted some average, middle class life. That's done. I wanted a wife and companion. I wanted to love and be loved. I wanted to make our dreams together. Decide together what we wanted to work toward, and do it together. That's all I ever wanted.

Partly the reason I don't know what I'd like is because I have never had a thing. I only had a few things when I was married to x2. I never dreamed of actually being able to have the little bit that we had together. That's gone, too.

Those dreams are all fantasies. I have no fantasies about what might happen. They are dead, too.


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## jld

You feel like you never had many things. And you really just wanted simple things, like a companion, someone to work with and for in life. Is that it?


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## jld

You just feel like you wouldn't make it anywhere else? You just don't think you can leave?


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## jld

I think you would like more for yourself, 2ntnuf.

I think all the writing you have done here is wonderful. You are letting things out and thinking them through. You are also letting others see your situation and giving them a chance to help you.

Are you familiar with the NMMNG forum? It is a board of just men. It would be very good for you to check it out, because those guys really support each other. They really have each other's back.

You need someone to have your back, 2ntnuf. You need to feel that you are not alone, and that your life is not over.


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## 2ntnuf

I further submit that I believe many of the women who are divorced after the age of fifty, have either been unfaithful due to peri, or they have something which makes them as unattractive as I am. Their and my attractiveness would then defer to the amount of social status and income potential we have. That being said, how the hell does a man with my thoughts surrounding sex and a real committed relationship afford any opportunity to be happy? 

I just don't see it. I think it's impossible for me to find true happiness and joy. It's a myth, at this point. 

Do you see the dilemma that I face? I have been trained to believe in marriage and commitment in a world where they are meaningless, in and of themselves. If I want to change and believe it is up to me to make the money for things I want for myself, why would I want to share that with any one person? Why wouldn't I want to keep it for myself and portion it out to those I deem worthy? I would then be the same as those I do not hold in high regard. I think the wealth comes from a concerted effort of two committed partners, over a long period of time. I don't have that long period of time any more. Thank you, POSOM, and dirt bag x.


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## jld

The guys on NMMNG have been hurt, some like you. They understand your pain, and they can be your friends, too, just like the folks here.

It's just another outlet, 2ntnuf. Another resource. And I am not saying buck up. I think you have the right to feel whatever you feel.

And I think you are very brave to share your feelings here.


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## kristin2349

jld said:


> That post is so beautiful, SA. It's right up there with the Jesus post you did yesterday. You are really reading the right books!
> 
> I was surprised this thread did not get more responses. I cannot be the only person out there dealing with guilt and shame. And honestly, the advice you have given me is so healing. I really cannot thank you enough.
> 
> I hope your posts give other people the guidance and comfort they have given me.


Jld:

Brene Browns books are so helpful. I devoured them started with a Daring Greatly. I saw her TED talk and she's so relatable and makes a subject we want to avoid normal. She's a great speaker and writer IMO.

I think if we are honest we all "hide" in one way or another. There are days I go out with sunglasses even if it's hazy, and dress in black. Then I'm always kind of shocked when I see someone I know because I'm wearing my shades, and my invisible clothing. It's silly but I do it on days when I want to be invisible.

You aren't the only person dealing with guilt and shame you are brave enough to put it out there.


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## jld

Thanks, kristin. I have a sensitive conscience. Sometimes it feels like a burden, but I think I would be insufferably selfish without it.

Was there something Brene Brown said in particular that you have found helpful?


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## kristin2349

jld said:


> Thanks, kristin. I have a sensitive conscience. Sometimes it feels like a burden, but I think I would be insufferably selfish without it.
> 
> Was there something Brene Brown said in particular that you have found helpful?



I have a few of her quotes written down. 

"In the absence of love & belonging there will always be suffering."

On sharing shame = showing vulnerability. Shame can't exist under the light of empathy.

Connection: the energy created between people when they feel seen heard and valued. When they can give and receive without judgement.

Those are a few that meant something to me. Her books are really easy to read and very helpful for me. She also gives a caveat (the warning was posted above ) about WHO you share your shame with. Making sure that person will be there for you not make it worse . That was a big lesson for me. My H is much more gilt/shame driven. I thought I was reading to "get" him but they helped me a lot.


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## jld

Wow, those are powerful, kristin. Thanks for sharing. 

And I better get reading her books!


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