# Need some advice and opinions on sudden dilemma



## mage62 (Mar 27, 2010)

Hello All,
I'm looking for some advice on what to do and I'll do my best to keep this straight and to the point. My fiance and I have been engaged since christmas eve and were very happy until 2 days ago. My fiance came back 2 days ago from a trip to spain with some of her girl pals. I thought it would be a good thing because she doesn't have the opportunity to get out much and she's been to europe before and she loves it there. 

When we first started dating she expressed interest in someday needing to take some time for herself to live in europe a while before she settles down and has kids and the whole family lifestyle. She doesn't know how long, but she says anywhere from 6 months to 2 years. I was ok with that at first because we were just dating and getting to know each other. As we got more serious she expressed that she doesn't need to live in europe anymore and is happy just being with me. Well, cut to three years later. We get engaged and everything is fine. 

Cut to 2 days ago. She says that she has come to the realization that she needs to live in europe after all before we get married and have kids. I find this very understandable and appreciate her telling me this now vs years later after we are married and maybe have kids in the picture. However, she drops this after we have already bought a house and have commitments to each other. 

I know myself very well and have told her from the beginning that I can't do long distance relationships. They are very hard and stressful for me. She says she knows and that she is sorry for putting me in this very hard position but that she has to be honest with herself and with me and she is afraid she may be unhappy later if she doesn't do this now.

I love her and I want her to be happy. At the same time, I have a gut feeling that I can't just say go ahead and expect me to be waiting right here when she gets back. I don't think it's fair. Also, I have a fear that the time she decides to go for, lets say 6 months, will turn into a year, then a year and half, then 2, etc. I asked her if she will definitely come back after whatever time she decides to go. She says she believes she would but she can't make that promise. 

I'm in a very hard position and I don't know what to do. If anyone here was in my situation with their spouse / fiance what would you do and how would you handle it?


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

What keeps you from being able to do a long-distance relationship, esp. when you have been together to form the relationship and are not trying to create one long-distance? Also, how long have the two of you been together?


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## mage62 (Mar 27, 2010)

Its very hard for me to be away from a loved one for a long period of time. I've also have had no luck in previous long distance serious relationships and its always come down to the lack of seeing each other.

Also, if my fiance could give me a 100% promise that she would return after an agreed upon time this wouldn't be a big deal. I understand the need to get something out of your system before commiting everything to a marriage. But because she can't, I have a fear that she will like to stay in europe longer than we planned. If that were to come true, I'd feel like the one who gets left behind for a indefinite amount of time. That makes me feel like I may be wasting my time.


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## mjr810 (Aug 24, 2008)

Sounds to me like she wants to play the field for a while.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

You haven't really answered part of the question--why is it so hard for you to be away from someone? Frankly, this sounds very needy--as does your insistence that you would be "wasting time." What is the big hurry? Wasting time you could have spent doing what--rushing into a new relationship b/c you can't stand being alone?

I may be totally off the mark here, but maybe you need to look into your self-esteem issues. If you love someone, you revel in their happiness whether they are with you or not. You don't sulk b/c they aren't with you. I wonder if she feels--consciously or unconsciously--that SHE, as an individual, isn't very important to you; that it is only the relationship that matters to you, and she could be easily replaced. Hard stuff to talk about, but you should. 

And yes, a time limit seems reasonable--but if you cannot live happily for 2 years on your own, then you may be the one with the problem. She's the one who has more time issues--female fertility. If this isn't bothering her, then either you are not the one for her or she knows she won't stay longing than two years b/c you ARE the one and she'll be eager to come back and settle down with you.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

There is this saying that I used with my boyfriend (now wonderful husband) many years ago when I was NOT sure I wanted to be with him-for Life. I needed to date a little more to be 100% sure of what I wanted, I even gave the engagement ring back. 

It goes " If you love something , let it go free, if it doesn't return to you, it was never meant to be Yours, If it does.... Love it forever". 

I did return to him, and I never regret that time I took, away from him, to get my head on straight. I also referred to it as "Playing the feild". I have even said in our marraige more than a handful of times -that if I didnt do that, I might have questioned our marraige or thought of other men. 

It is very unfortaunate a house was bought, but if she is raising these issues, she really might regret later if she does not take this time. Just my thoughts on HOW important -that time was for me. 

I understand your not being able to wait, the difficulty in long distance relationships, not many could handle this! You both should agree to stay in contact but allow for seeing others during that time. Unless the 2 years is written in stone, you may be surprised once she leaves, she may have had enough time & come quickly back. 

It is definetly a RISK for you both, but again, if you both come back to each other , after these 2 years (or whatever time it plays out to be), it will probably be Magnificant & lasting. If not, she was never meant to be yours, or you was never meant to be hers.


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## mage62 (Mar 27, 2010)

Simply Amorous,
Thanks for the advice. I am a believer in that saying as well. Although she says she definitely wants to be with me and only me. 

What gets to me is the timing of the whole thing. Prior to getting engagement we had many, many lengthy discussions about what we both had to do before we get more serious. She was good with settling down and we agreed to take vacations together, because I would like to visit Europe as well. What I failed to mention was that I didn't want to rush into a house or get engaged right away. She was the one who wanted to settle down more. She pressed for a house, she pressed to get engaged, and she pressed the importance of starting our life together. Even though it took me a while, I eventually decided to do what she wanted. I didn't do it because she wanted, but because its what I wanted as well. I took the time with this and eventually I became fully committed and invested. I became fully committed to her and I committed my finances, career, and lifestyle for our engagement and for starting "our life". These aren't easy changes to make, or to back out of. 

And I feel like what she is doing by changing her mind is just so extremely unfair when she was the one who wanted these things bad. I love her to death but I can't help for resenting her a little bit. 

I'm going to be open to what you said though. I'm a big believer in that saying. So as unfair as what she is doing is you're right. We'll just see what happens. If it works out then it was meant to be, if it doesn't then we'll go our separate ways and move on.


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## pinkprincess (Jun 10, 2008)

can you not maybe rent the house out and go with her then u will have the morgate being paid and a hppy lady


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## mage62 (Mar 27, 2010)

I wish i could follow her out there but it's not an option. I have an ailing grandmother, a career that I have worked tremendously hard to start, and my family (parents, siblings, etc) in a crisis. I can't pick up and leave.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Obviously you can not make her stay, but since she made the commitment of an engagement and a house, she really is not completely "free" to just skip out on her commitments either. 

I would suggest that she return the ring, sell the house (or make some other reasonable financial arrangement like paying off her portion), and THEN she's free to go to Europe as she pleases ... with the understanding that you will not be waiting. 

Then if I were you, I would not wait. 

If she wants to sow some oats or whatever, that truly is her prerogative and good for her that she said something before a wedding and children. But to push for the engagement and the financial commitment of a house and then ditch is not very personally responsible. Allow her to experience the consequences of her choices, which in this instance is that she choose (even pushed for) a house. She is not really free to go until that is cleared up, so her trip will need to be delayed until the consequence of that decision to buy a house is handled. 

After the ring is returned and the house is sold, she is completely free to leave knowing you will not wait.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You are very smart. Man to man - a woman who was REALLY into you would not do this. 

Don't get me wrong - I am not saying she doesn't love you. What I AM saying is she is very clearly willing to end the R so she can go to Europe. 

I think you might want to tell her that:
- You understand her needs
- You will be selling the house ASAP
- The engagement is off
- You are now both free to date other people

If you DON'T do this, you are simply telling her that you will put your whole life on hold for AS LONG AS IT TAKES. I don't know any woman who would respect a man for doing that. And if a woman does not respect the man - you have nothing. 

As for whether or not each of you meets/marries someone else - well I hope that you do. You are clearly not her top priority in life which is sad. But at least you are learning that NOW before you have kids. 




mage62 said:


> Hello All,
> I'm looking for some advice on what to do and I'll do my best to keep this straight and to the point. My fiance and I have been engaged since christmas eve and were very happy until 2 days ago. My fiance came back 2 days ago from a trip to spain with some of her girl pals. I thought it would be a good thing because she doesn't have the opportunity to get out much and she's been to europe before and she loves it there.
> 
> When we first started dating she expressed interest in someday needing to take some time for herself to live in europe a while before she settles down and has kids and the whole family lifestyle. She doesn't know how long, but she says anywhere from 6 months to 2 years. I was ok with that at first because we were just dating and getting to know each other. As we got more serious she expressed that she doesn't need to live in europe anymore and is happy just being with me. Well, cut to three years later. We get engaged and everything is fine.
> ...


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## sunshine31 (Feb 1, 2010)

Wow. First of all, i'm really sad to hear about your situation. Secondly, shame on those of you who have no sympathy for his situation and tell him that he must let her go. Keep in mind that when he wrote the post it happened TWO DAYS AGO. I don't know any person, man or woman who would not be devistated by this news that the person they love and are to marry wants to leave them to explore themselves. There are definately a lot of options to take in this situation but telling him that maybe he is the one with a problem because he is unsure of how to procede...not cool! He does not have a problem other than that of deciding which path to follow for his future. Geez people!!


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## Simply Complicated (Mar 20, 2010)

As much as it would hurt and regardless of how much I loved her, I would take that as her way of saying that she's not ready to settle down with you. From there it's up to you. Personally I'd take that as I'm single again, and free to explore other avenues of love. Take time for yourself to recuperate and reflect before you do obviously. You both seem to be very independent people and doubt that this isn't something you wouldn't being able to move on from. She screwed you with her move but you can't make someone stay if they don't want to. Try to learn from it if you can, so not to put yourself out there again, putting you in a situation of taking care of what was supposed to be a joint financial and life commitment, by yourself. I believe she's being selfish and shouldn't be allowed to do as she pleases with your heart. She welched on her promised commitment to you. She's a big girl, she made a big decision, now she should be made to live with it. Hopefully she'll fall flat on her face and regret her decision. I also hope you don't take her back if she does. Just keep it moving... this isn't the movies. You sound like a good man, understanding, and secure. You're a hot commodity buddy and in demand. Good luck.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sis,
I don't think this is fair. She pushed for engagement/house etc. which = commitment commitment commitment. 

Now she is suddenly saying she wants to go to Europe and wants no committed time frame. Forget about what they can negotiate as a final agreement. Given her mantra of commit commit commit, her request in and of itself at this point in time is a BAD FAITH REQUEST. It shows a level of self centeredness that is very much NOT good in a marriage. Even if she had done this before engagement - asking a person - male or female to "wait" for 2 years is ludicrous. You tell them you love them - just not enough to give up your travel dreams - they should move on with their lives and if by some chance both of you are available and still want to marry when you return - great. 

Now some specific questions for the OP:
- Do you jointly own the house? 
- What has she suggested doing about the house? 
- Is she willing to pay her share of the mortgage while she is gone?
- Is she willing to absorb any costs associated with selling it if that is the right thing to do? 
- How is it she can afford to travel in Europe for such a long period of time? 
- WHAT changed? Why did she go from total commitment mode to total self focused mode? 


As for simplyamorous - I like you and I find your story interesting. If I remember correctly you starved your husband of sex for much of your marriage and then a few years ago you suddenly realized that was a bad thing to do. You fit the profile of someone who is with a basically decent guy who they don't find super attractive unless they feel him slipping away. And that is mainly sad for the guy - because until he cracks the code and starts to withdraw - he gets starved of sex. Maybe him "waiting for you" was good for you. Maybe if he had known how you were going to treat him he would have married someone who treated HIM a lot better. So it is great that he was ok with you playing the field - but for much of the marriage I don't think your behavior reflected any real gratitude for that. 





sisters359 said:


> You haven't really answered part of the question--why is it so hard for you to be away from someone? Frankly, this sounds very needy--as does your insistence that you would be "wasting time." What is the big hurry? Wasting time you could have spent doing what--rushing into a new relationship b/c you can't stand being alone?
> 
> I may be totally off the mark here, but maybe you need to look into your self-esteem issues. If you love someone, you revel in their happiness whether they are with you or not. You don't sulk b/c they aren't with you. I wonder if she feels--consciously or unconsciously--that SHE, as an individual, isn't very important to you; that it is only the relationship that matters to you, and she could be easily replaced. Hard stuff to talk about, but you should.
> 
> And yes, a time limit seems reasonable--but if you cannot live happily for 2 years on your own, then you may be the one with the problem. She's the one who has more time issues--female fertility. If this isn't bothering her, then either you are not the one for her or she knows she won't stay longing than two years b/c you ARE the one and she'll be eager to come back and settle down with you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> As much as it would hurt and regardless of how much I loved her, I would take that as her way of saying that she's not ready to settle down with you.


Yep.

She's had a 'dream' her whole life, it seems like. She even made that clear at first. But life got in the way, and she decided to give up on her dream and settle for OP. But then she went there, and realized it really WAS what she had been dreaming for, and if she didn't follow through on pursuing that dream, she'd hate herself (and make OP miserable) for the rest of her life.

I think you should thank her for being honest BEFORE you got even deeper into debt and family than you are. 

Sell the ring, sell the house, and decide to see if you can make it through this period apart, but don't make any promises. 

She's giving you valuable information. My D19 was talking to me today about being honest, and how each time she's told the truth (to school principal about skipping, boss about being unavailable over the holidays, etc.), the person has thanked her because they are so used to people lying (or omitting the truth) for their own gain.

Be grateful that she's being honest with you.


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## mage62 (Mar 27, 2010)

Thank everyone for the really good advice. It confirmed a lot of what I already knew and it feels great to have that validation from people looking into it on the outside. 

It's been a rough couple of days but here is where things are:

I told her that I understand she has a dream and that if its something she feels she has to do(which is the way she words it) to go ahead and do it. I told her that if she goes that the engagement will be off. I also made it clear that it wouldn't be off as a way to get her back for the hurt, but that its just unreasonable to take off and tell me to just wait while she goes and does her own thing. 

She didn't like that very much. She sees the whole thing as its not a matter of having to choose one dream for the other. She honestly thought that we could just pick up where we left off when she comes back. She didn't even consider the possibility of me not being there as a fiance, or the possibility of not being available when she returns. 

So, the ball is in her court. Although I also feel that if she stays she may resent me for it but we'll see. She wants to take the time to think about everything and I told her that is ok as long as she doesn't wait forever to reach a decision.

Again, thank you to everyone(well, a great majority of you anyway) for the very great advice. It has helped me tremendously. Thank you! If anything else happens I'll be back for more advice.


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## marcy* (Feb 27, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Y
> 
> I think you might want to tell her that:
> - You understand her needs
> ...





Affaircare said:


> Obviously you can not make her stay, but since she made the commitment of an engagement and a house, she really is not completely "free" to just skip out on her commitments either.





turnera said:


> Yep.
> 
> 
> Be grateful that she's being honest with you.


:iagree:


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> Sis,
> 
> As for simplyamorous - I like you and I find your story interesting. If I remember correctly you starved your husband of sex for much of your marriage and then a few years ago you suddenly realized that was a bad thing to do. You fit the profile of someone who is with a basically decent guy who they don't find super attractive unless they feel him slipping away. And that is mainly sad for the guy - because until he cracks the code and starts to withdraw - he gets starved of sex. Maybe him "waiting for you" was good for you. Maybe if he had known how you were going to treat him he would have married someone who treated HIM a lot better. So it is great that he was ok with you playing the field - but for much of the marriage I don't think your behavior reflected any real gratitude for that.


 Mem: I really LOVE & enjoy your posts- by the way, I almost ALWAYS agree 100% , you bring SUCH clarity to every thread you reply too - amazing. 
I am a little taken a back that you are beating up on me here though! :scratchhead: I have to defend myself - just a little. 

I would agree with your assesment of me saying ..."You fit the profile of someone who is with a basically decent guy who they don't find super attractive unless they feel him slipping away". This is true, but it would be for many many women in my shoes. My husband is Mr Nice Guy-Love you till Death, Sacrifice it all - Kinda man. He is basically very very easy to take advantage off. He was just "always there- always waiting". And I did take him "for granted" for many years - but here is the RUB >>>> He was SUCH a willing participant, you really have no idea! He surely could learn some Great lessons from "BIgBadWolf" on here -- and YOU. If he was different back then, I can tell you for sure, I would NOT have taken him for granted , and our sex life would have been "smoking". 

You even give advice for Passive Husbands like him all the time. I hope they are listening -- I agree with this advice! 

 It is very very very true that men like my husband would be better off to lay the law down, make no apologies & like this poster - let this woman know she has to do her part (financially)-in this commitment they made together with this house, and that he will NOT wait 2 yrs for her to get her act together. If he does not , he is allowing her to take advantage of him, and she will loose some respect for him. 

I totally agree with you !!! 

And my Husband SHOULD have laid the law down WITH ME, seduced me, talked to me, wooed me for more sex in all those years instead of willingly suffering in silence. I really had no clue to how he was feeling. 

Was it not up to him -who was suffering the frustration - to inform me, sit me down, talk to me about it ? He failed us both with his in-action and passiveness. 

If he had dared TALK to me (trust me when I say I am reasonable & LOVE to communicate), shared with me his feelings, what he needed/desired, I would have ACTED, took him seriously, not brushed him off. I would have at least bought a book - to help explore our sex lives. I always loved him. We had sex about once a week, it was never less than that. *And even then, he waited for me to come to him! How insane is that? No man does this!!* Find me one - heck I was off masterbating about 2 times a month thinking he has little drive, that I did not want to wake him up in the middle of the night cause he needed his sleep! Little did I know he would have loved that!! (This all comes out AFTER I start the communication- a shame really) 

I applaud the husbands on this forum for taking their frustrations to their wives- laying it down & demanding change to better their intimacy & marraige. I only wish I had that opportunity back then , but he denied me that. 

So please, give me a little credit MEM. I love my husband, if you asked him if I was worth all the trouble/suffering of the past (which I have), he has told me he would do it all over again, even without this boost in my drive. We are both blessed that it happened though! 

But please trust me when I say, His overly passive tendencies have hindered us sexually, probably even more so than anything I did or didn't do. 

Please forgive me for this sidetrack reply to MEM!


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## mage62 (Mar 27, 2010)

I agree with simplyamorous.... it doesn't pay, whether female or male, to be passive. All you will be is an enabler and all enablers I've seen get taken advantage of without even knowing it.


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## Simply Complicated (Mar 20, 2010)

turnera said:


> Be grateful that she's being honest with you.


I agree with this but timing is everything. She had her opportunity long before agreeing to commit. She even said she no longer needed to go to Europe cuz she had him. Now that the ball has begun rolling, engagement, house, etc., now she wants to renig on her commitment? She's so wrong for doing this to him. Her timing for being truthful was God aweful. It could have been worse you right, but it could and should have been alot better with her timing. Nevertheless, you're right in that he should still count his blessings that she quit now other then later or even that she didn't choose to stick it out, where they would most likely end up being miserable and resentful of their marriage.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Mem, he didn't say she pushed for commitment until after I had posted. His initial post sounded very needy--an "I can't be alone!" vibe. That's always an issue worth investigating IF it is someone's issue.

I like the resolution--"engagement's off, do your thing, I'll do mine, and I'm ok with that." Sounds non-punitive and adult. Very different from, "I don't want you to go because I can't function alone, and my happiness should be more important to you than your own!"


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## mage62 (Mar 27, 2010)

Alright sisters359, no offense but your post was bs. I am not a needy person. I'm quite the opposite. In fact, my fiance (at least until she makes up her mind) has always told me that one of the things that she loves about me is that I don't control her in any way. If she wants to be out all night with the girls? Go ahead. If she wants to stay out at a friends house? Go ahead. If she wants to take off for a vacation without me to take a break? Go ahead. She also loves that I don't need and ask for much. We just "are". 

Now, for you to go on a "needy and insecure" rant due to the timing of this whole thing was not just unrealistic but very insensitive. Way to kick a man when he's down. You were saying that it was ok for her to want to skip out for a year or so of "us" AFTER she already made big committments(No matter if she pushed for them or not). No offense, but its a load of crap. Please don't give me anymore advice. I appreciate you giving me your two cents but I think we are very different people, which is ok. There is nothing wrong with that.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Simply Complicated said:


> I agree with this but timing is everything. She had her opportunity long before agreeing to commit. She even said she no longer needed to go to Europe cuz she had him. Now that the ball has begun rolling, engagement, house, etc., now she wants to renig on her commitment? She's so wrong for doing this to him. Her timing for being truthful was God aweful. It could have been worse you right, but it could and should have been alot better with her timing. Nevertheless, you're right in that he should still count his blessings that she quit now other then later or even that she didn't choose to stick it out, where they would most likely end up being miserable and resentful of their marriage.


Oh, I didn't mean we should think she's doing a good thing, but that he may have been 'saved' from making a huge investment in someone who may not be as invested as him, now, rather than later.


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## mage62 (Mar 27, 2010)

You're right. I am thankful this happened now rather than later. That is what kept me from going crazy.


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## lisakifttherapy (Jul 31, 2007)

I can see how that would turn your world upside down. Timing not so great on her decision to live out her dream - and a bit selfish at this point - but here you are.

I think you need to think really hard about what will - and will not - work for you. If she wants to run off to Europe now and you are not ok with trying the long distance thing (and she knows that) then perhaps you need to put the brakes on all of this. She has made a big decision that impacts both of you - and she needs to understand that there may be consequences. 

If you can tolerate the separation, and couples certainly make that work all the time, then consider waiting it out. I'm just a little concerned that her impulsivity might show up again. 

Perhaps you can figure out a way to walk the middle - in that you get out of your financial obligations in some way (to protect yourself) but keep the option open of you both dating others and maybe starting over when she returns.

At the end of the day you need to do what works for you. She clearly is doing what works for her - and isn't ready to make these kinds of decisions as a couple. So perhaps she's not ready to be one.


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## mage62 (Mar 27, 2010)

Lisakiftherapy,
Thanks for the advice. I have been very open and honest over the whole thing and I told her that I can't do the long distance relationship. I've done them before and I'm not good at them. 

What has me baffled is that she sees the whole situation as "not a big deal". She does not understand how by going to Europe she is going to compromise our relationship. She honestly thought that she could go, I would say yes and that "I'll be here when you get back." She thought she could go get this out of her system and come back and resume with no problems. 

The whole "not big deal part" is a huge red flag for me. I'm having trouble how that computes for her. 

It's also worth noting that she has never done the long distance thing before and that she never dated much before she met me.... and I think that is a problem. There are a lot of relationship "norms" that she learned during our relationship that the average person learns I guess during high school or college.

She honestly thinks the long distance thing wouldn't put a single bit of strain on the relationship. NONE. I admire her confidence, but I have a gut feeling she will change her mind very quickly once she is actually in that situation. In other words, she's is being overly logical about the situation instead of thinking about what would actually happen.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SA,

You are totally right here. My comment to you wasn't fair and frankly your response was perfect - EVERY overly passive guy on here should read what you write about your marriage. 

I am going to restate my comment for Mage. Humans are wired to be HIGHLY aware of social status. When it comes to dating - men and women are especially good at rating each other in terms of sexual attraction. It is USUALLY true that in a R - the lower rated partner chases/makes accommodations for the higher rated partner. 

But here is the kicker - once you are really close - a LOT of the cues that impact your "self rating" come from your partner. YOUR partner fully thinks that her sex rank is substantially higher than yours. And this drives absolutely EVERYTHING in her mind. And this is primarily why she is surprised and a bit put off that you are not willing to suddenly put your life on hold for an open ended period. 

If you continue to grow your business - almost zero chance you will be waiting for her when she returns - some other comparable female is going to identify, hunt and capture (in the most delightful possible manner) you. 






SimplyAmorous said:


> Mem: I really LOVE & enjoy your posts- by the way, I almost ALWAYS agree 100% , you bring SUCH clarity to every thread you reply too - amazing.
> I am a little taken a back that you are beating up on me here though! :scratchhead: I have to defend myself - just a little.
> 
> I would agree with your assesment of me saying ..."You fit the profile of someone who is with a basically decent guy who they don't find super attractive unless they feel him slipping away". This is true, but it would be for many many women in my shoes. My husband is Mr Nice Guy-Love you till Death, Sacrifice it all - Kinda man. He is basically very very easy to take advantage off. He was just "always there- always waiting". And I did take him "for granted" for many years - but here is the RUB >>>> He was SUCH a willing participant, you really have no idea! He surely could learn some Great lessons from "BIgBadWolf" on here -- and YOU. If he was different back then, I can tell you for sure, I would NOT have taken him for granted , and our sex life would have been "smoking".
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sorry for the incomplete thought below - I will finish it now. 

Mage,
Quick style comment - you and I are partial clones. One reason for our happy 20+ year marriage is I have never tried and frankly have zero interest in controlling my wife. I trust her and she has never even come close to breaching my trust. So I spend no time either telling her what to do or insisting she account for her time. 

You are doing exactly the right thing here - she is puzzled and a bit put off because you are contradicting her perception of your relative sex rank. You are basically saying in a very mature and independent manner that you are confident your life will turn out fine with or without her and you will likely meet someone else who is also a good/great mate and that will be that. This is really important because a big part of her perception of your sex rank comes from your self perception - doing this may make her angry at you short term - and it may even end the R, it also raises her opinion/respect of you. 

I am going to ask you a question that may be painful to even hear but I think it is worth consideration because if this is her standard MO you are not going to have a happy marriage. 

How likely is it that your fiancee was thinking that maybe the best thing to do was lock you into a commitment via house/ring etc and then decide whether or not she still felt the need to do the European thing? Because the WAY she approached this with you shows almost no concern for:
- past conversations and commitments AND
- YOUR happiness / anxiety levels

It also created the best possible situation for her if you would go for it which is a locked in, financially positive life PLUS the freedom to do whatever she wants whenever she wants to. 

And there is one other subtle but even bigger plus to her - it sets the tone for your whole marriage - and that tone is that her needs completely trump yours regardless of past agreements and commitments (rings and houses are not small things). This is the message that:

"You don't really deserve her and the way you can make up for your sex rank shortcomings is to recognize that and go with the flow. And if you do, it will all work out (well maybe not so well for you) and if you don't - she is gone. 







MEM11363 said:


> SA,
> 
> You are totally right here. My comment to you wasn't fair and frankly your response was perfect - EVERY overly passive guy on here should read what you write about your marriage.
> 
> ...


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

I'm just like anyone here, responding to the ideas and sentiments expressed in a post. I take time to read through everything (usually) and respond to what I "see." If you look back at the initial post, there wasn't any much information given about her being the one wanting commitments--and first and foremost in relationships we need to look at ourselves. If the suggestions fits, you listen; if you know it doesn't, you ignore it. Not sure why you would feel the need to attack anyone who was simply trying to help.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> SA,
> 
> You are totally right here. My comment to you wasn't fair and frankly your response was perfect - EVERY overly passive guy on here should read what you write about your marriage.


 (Sorry again for this 2nd reply to MEM & getting off the original subject) 

I do enjoy giving my 2 cents to these men on here. Thank you for that.

I talked more with my husband the other day about all of this, since writing my reply on here. I wanted to be really HONEST with myself, as maybe I was MORE to blame than I expressed on here. And in his mind, HE does feel it was MORE my fault, but not all, he agrees he did not do "enough".


This is why he feels it was more ME & he does have a point.... We struggled with infertility after our 1st child for over 6 yrs & I literally was OBSESSED with getting pregnant & I demanded we have sex on certain nights -saving up his sperm, and in all honesty, to his credit, I probably would have been a *ITCH to deal with back then, it was like NOTHING else in life mattered to me. I literally put his sperm BEFORE his needs. So this was a huge monkey wrench thrown into our sex lives. It was the most trying time of our marraige, very very stressful on me & I put that on him. Plus I did not feel "sexual-needing it all the time" like he did, so I also just didn't "get it". 
I thought if we had too much sex, he would deplete his sperm count with less chances of conception. Looking back, now I know why I have a slew of sons ! (statistically you conceive more girls when the sperm count is less)

But still he didn't TRY, never once did he take the time to SIT me down & tell me HOW HE FELT, even after the floodgates of fertility opened up to us. So I fault him for that- I am the type that would have been *MOVED* to hear it as RAW as it was, even if he was thinking about another women to take care of his needs! This would have *DRIVEN* me to action - I know me & that is what I needed to hear - a firm & direct RANT, an unleashing of all that was hurting him, nothing less was going to catch my attention- while under that spell of obsession. 

I would NOT have blamed him or threw that back in his face IF he had said such things to me (but I know many many women would - so men need to tread carefully here). I can dish it out REALLY critically when I am upset, so I have no problem hearing such raw honesty from him. He said he never felt like that, but after so many times Physically trying with me (with *no* words of "wanting it"), he slowly backed down and let life be what it was, always patiently waiting for that weekly encounter. 

So he faults me for being "TOO 1 tract minded to care about anything else in life", plus I have always been a dominant force. I fault him for not "talking about his needs AND MAKING ME SEE , whatever it took, even harshness". 

Live & Learn - He is thrilled the tables have turned & I have the higher drive now , so I now KNOW what it was like. I am sure it is "sweet" revenge - for him.  And that is OK, I DESERVE It!


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## WILLARD (Mar 11, 2010)

WOW. After all of this at least half of the people reading your story envy you. You dodged a bullet here. 
You could have ended up like the rest of us. No-one died, got shot, was cheated on, etc. 
Say goodbye - this is not your life-long partner. 
She does not deserve you. Have your second chance - with someone who's dreams include YOU. 
But, be wiser next time round. We are after all supposed to learn from our mistakeS.
Best of luck.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SA,
The whole tone of your note is remarkable - the high level of self awareness - the very blunt conversations with your H and the balance that the two of you have. 

When I read these posts the first thing I look for is whether one or both spouses is focused on understanding the truth as best they can or whether they are purely in point scoring mode. Clearly the two of you are focused on having a true understanding of what happened and is happening regardless of blame. THAT is rare and beautiful. 

FWIW I believe the high drive HD spouse is responsible for creating an environment where the LD spouse WANTS to please them and wants to compromise on frequency. And that often means going above and beyond in and out of bed. But it is tricky because I NEVER did the "well I rubbed your back so I expect sex" partly because she never starved me. But because of that my behavioral choices never correlated to "will we have sex or not". Angry - I spoke up. Feeling jerked around - I was assertive and if needed aggressive. No sex during a 2-3 day fight - sex - what the hell is that - I didn't want sex I wanted an apology (LOL) - half the time I apologized and the other half - hell I simply would not speak until I felt fairly treated. 

I try hard to tell the guys who are struggling: Conflict avoidance is the first step on the road to celibacy. 

And I also try to convey that the best conflict includes no yelling, no personal attacks, no cursing, no threats. And sometimes the best conflict is simply action. Start deprioritizing your partner if they are deprioritizing you. This thread is a great example of that. He is not threatening her - he is defining HIS boundaries - if she breaches her big commitments and wants to do so on an undefined and open ended basis - the engagement is off. 




SimplyAmorous said:


> (Sorry again for this 2nd reply to MEM & getting off the original subject)
> 
> I do enjoy giving my 2 cents to these men on here. Thank you for that.
> 
> ...


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

mage62 said:


> Lisakiftherapy,
> Thanks for the advice. I have been very open and honest over the whole thing and I told her that I can't do the long distance relationship. I've done them before and I'm not good at them.
> 
> What has me baffled is that she sees the whole situation as "not a big deal". She does not understand how by going to Europe she is going to compromise our relationship. She honestly thought that she could go, I would say yes and that "I'll be here when you get back." She thought she could go get this out of her system and come back and resume with no problems.
> ...


Damn, we got some serious thread drift happening. Let's see if we can get it back on track...

I'm thinking you are handling this quite well. You are being very mature, reasonable and open minded. You are talking a realistic approach and looking out for your best interests but being sensitive to your fiancee's needs. You are being completely honest with her without being vindictive. I don't see a problem on your end. 

You fiancee wants it every way she can. That's what it comes down to and that's why she's convinced herself and is trying to convince you that it's no big deal if she goes off and does her thing and puts you on "hold". She wants to call the shots and she wants that proverbial cake and to be able to eat it too.  A good part of this attitude has to do with her not being all that experienced in having a committed relationship. 

I've done the long distance relationship bit. Not once but twice. You are right. It stinks. Some can handle it. I barely did and would NEVER EVER do it again. It's good that you recognize your feelings on this and won't budge. You shouldn't have to. 

She's not wrong either. Oh, she handled it badly but I get the impression that she wasn't looking to mislead you. She's just a bit immature and confused. I know what having dreams and regretting not fulfilling them is all about. It's led to a lot of problems in my life and marriage. If she really wants this and doesn't get it and marries you "under pressure" it's going to remain an issue between you, especially when the stress of marriage and raising kids really happens.

You really have dodged a bullet on this one. Better to have a selfish and confused fiancee than an angry, embittered and resentful wife. 

The fact she wants to live in Europe and "sow her oats" is fine but she can't expect you to sit around in stasis and wait YEARS for her. Fact is, in life you can't have everything. Many try, but few achieve this goal. If you get married and have a family then you both gain and lose something. If you stay single and want to travel then you gain and lose different things. Life is about the choices you make. It's a shame we can't all live our lives twice. To be able to live it one way and then live it differently the second time around would be incredible but unfortunately you only get one shot. 

She can take her shot but you need to stand by your gut decision and live your life as well. I think you are handling it well. Now the ball is in her court. I think she really wants to do this and she should. If she goes away and lives out her dream she will at least know and if you do wind up together then at least it will be willingly done and you both won't have to sit and wonder "what if" for the rest of your lives. 

Good luck!


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

> How likely is it that your fiancee was thinking that maybe the best thing to do was lock you into a commitment via house/ring etc and then decide whether or not she still felt the need to do the European thing? Because the WAY she approached this with you shows almost no concern for:
> - past conversations and commitments AND
> - YOUR happiness / anxiety levels
> 
> ...


Well, this is one way to see it.

There is another: She's an adult and sees him as an adult. She comes to a realization that this time in Europe is something she wants to do. She tells him--yeah, bad timing, but it takes courage, b/c she knows it's going to throw a wrench in things. But, rather than swallow her dream and make a sacrifice she knows she should not make (like too many people do), she takes the adult position and says, I plan to do this. She *expects* he'll be ok with it b/c she sees him as a fully competent adult, too. What she does not understand is that she is more comfortable with the idea of the distance than he is (maybe she's right, and it's easier for her; may it's not going to be as easy as she thinks, but she can only judge by her life experience and she *knows* she'll resent making the sacrifice, so that's a no-go). 

She took a risk, and only she can decide if she's willing to live with the consequences. I don't know why this makes her a bad person--would she have been a "better" person for putting her needs after his? Or, would the both of them be better off realizing they really are NOT a perfect match, and be glad to have found this out, and both walk away happy for what they had, sad for the loss of a good friend and lover, but ready to find someone better matched?

I don't see anything nefarious or even unconsciously selfish about what she has done. Not everything in life is about negotiating for an advantage over someone else--it's often about standing up and taking changes for what we want or need. If it works the way we expected, great; if not, that's life, and we deal with it b/c that was our choice.


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

I agree. I don't think she's being nefarious or misleading or devious in what she did at all. What she did took courage and I give her credit because this is something a lot of people wouldn't do but they would be angry and resentful as a result of NOT doing it. Now is the time to do this, not a few years into a marriage, perhaps with a family started, etc. 

But she can't expect her fiancee to sit around and wait for her for years. There are consequences to her actions and she'll have to decide what it is she ultimately wants. That's just the way life is. He's prepared to accept her decision and not make her miserable as a result of it. He just wants to be able to do the same thing and live his life freely as well. Seems reasonable to me. 

Fact is, just because a long distance relationship SEEMS good to her is no reason why HE should have to put up with something he KNOWS won't work for him. It's NOT an easy thing to do! I don't blame him at all and salute him for having the same courage and honesty as she does. He's being straight with her too. 

Also, she's going and doing something different and exciting and new. What is he going to be doing? Oh, remaining at home in the same place, job and waiting for her phone calls, emails and her (perhaps) eventual return that is yet to be determined? How about his being resentful and angry? That is bound to happen too with him. Is that fair?


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

> Fact is, just because a long distance relationship SEEMS good to her is no reason why HE should have to put up with something he KNOWS won't work for him. It's NOT an easy thing to do! I don't blame him at all and salute him for having the same courage and honesty as she does. He's being straight with her too.


Yep, although I can't agree with your assessment that he will just be remaining at home. . . waiting for her calls, emails, etc. 

He can do that, or he can take up a new hobby, some classes, or make whatever use of his free time he chooses. If he chooses to move on to a new relationship, that's fine too. He has just as much right to choose for himself as she does.


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

Well, she's off living her dream in an exciting new place traveling throughout Europe and having a great time. That's all good and all but basically he's looking at staying home in the house they bought together, working the same job, looking after his family and dealing with his obligations. A long distance relationship is indeed waiting on phone calls, emails, etc. That is how it's done. 

He can take up a hobby and whatnot but he is effect "waiting" for her, unless he breaks it off and is as free as she is to explore his options. She wants him basically to stay committed wait on her and can't understand why he is unwilling to do so. 

So if he does break it off and pursues his own life then things are equal. But that's not what she wants. That's the problem. It's the proverbial having the cake and eating it too.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sis,

Usually even if we see things differently we don't see them as 180 degrees out of phase which is what is happening here. See the two things that makes me see this the way I do is this:

1. "SHE pushed for the house and the ring WITHOUT ever saying she might still push for Europe also. Now they had talked about the Europe thing before because she had brought it up now and then - but he had always told her he wasn't cool with LDR's. So there is nothing adult about pushing your partner to make commitments they never would have made if they knew you were going away for a long time/open ended and then hitting them with the request/demand and acting surprised/upset when they prepare to end it. 

2. She is also pushing for it to be open ended in terms of time. 

That combo seems predatory to me. 




sisters359 said:


> Well, this is one way to see it.
> 
> There is another: She's an adult and sees him as an adult. She comes to a realization that this time in Europe is something she wants to do. She tells him--yeah, bad timing, but it takes courage, b/c she knows it's going to throw a wrench in things. But, rather than swallow her dream and make a sacrifice she knows she should not make (like too many people do), she takes the adult position and says, I plan to do this. She *expects* he'll be ok with it b/c she sees him as a fully competent adult, too. What she does not understand is that she is more comfortable with the idea of the distance than he is (maybe she's right, and it's easier for her; may it's not going to be as easy as she thinks, but she can only judge by her life experience and she *knows* she'll resent making the sacrifice, so that's a no-go).
> 
> ...


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## mage62 (Mar 27, 2010)

hello all, 

Thank you all again for the great advice. I like how a lot of you have approached the situation from different angles... it helps me look at it from all sides.

Well here is an update on the situation. She has decided that at some point she would like to go for 3 months but travel back occasionally. She says she loves me and doesn't want to compromise our relationship but she does need to do this before we get married. She is afraid to get married, have children, and then have this regret that she didn't do this before. All understandable stuff. I told her that I am very happy she figured this out now and that she approached me about it. 

She has been a lot happier since this whole thing happened. However, my gut still tells me there is something off. The reason for this is that she wants to hault wedding plans until further notice until all of this is settled. We talked about this and she says that she wants to be free to travel, with me and without me. She says that this is one of those things that she will enjoy more with her friends. Now, am I wrong to feel a little wary about that? Its the combination of putting off our wedding and being "free" to travel with friends that seems to fit the "having your cake and eating it too" that a lot of you have talked about. What do you all think?


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## ppl (Apr 8, 2010)

she didnt invite you to move there with her. the message is clear. its not just about living there or she would have invited you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yeah. She has this dream of what a free and easy summer in Europe will be like, and she has to experience it. She probably has all kinds of dreams of romance novel type stuff happening. 

Then again, this seems a lot like a bachelor party, where the groom is expected to get it all out of his system before settling down. Which many people don't look down on.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

It really doesnt matter how any of us feel about this , only how you feel . If you LOVE her and are willing to wait - please hang in there. I am sure Glad/blessed that my boyfriend (now husband) did- when I felt similar. 

But if you truly feel she is abusing the situation, don't be afraid to take a stand. 

If she remains with you, she will always be thankful that you allowed her "this" time. And waited for her.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

What was the original date for the wedding? 

Why is she not scheduling the Euro trip to happen now/soon? 

Seems like Europe has 3 options in terms of who goes:
- you two as a couple
- you two plus her friends
- just her and her friends

Why does she want to go with her friends and without you?

In the day to day do YOU get the impression that she isn't totally into you? 

Does it feel like she is playing a game of chicken with you/seeing if you will blink - over the delayed wedding? 

Does it feel like she is trying to punish you in a way by indefinitely putting the wedding off?

I dated quite a bit before marrying. I noticed a super high correlation between how "into me" they were and:
1. Sexual frequency and 
2. Focus on pleasing ME when we had sex 

In the US - 2 is typically frequency of her giving you oral sex. 

I realize this is kind of raw - thing is in talking to other guys - this is a fairly broadly held view. 




mage62 said:


> hello all,
> 
> Thank you all again for the great advice. I like how a lot of you have approached the situation from different angles... it helps me look at it from all sides.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Never heard of a guy getting "attached" to someone at his bachelor party in a way that messes up his wedding. 

3 months is plenty long - 3 weeks is long enough - to get attached to someone.

3 months in Europe is not a valid comparison to a bachelor party. 




turnera said:


> Yeah. She has this dream of what a free and easy summer in Europe will be like, and she has to experience it. She probably has all kinds of dreams of romance novel type stuff happening.
> 
> Then again, this seems a lot like a bachelor party, where the groom is expected to get it all out of his system before settling down. Which many people don't look down on.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It's the same in the sense of getting something out of your system. If that's indeed her goal.

Who says she's going to get attached to someone? All I see is that she wants to travel. 

The real unknown here is her reasoning. IS she going to see if she can hook up with some guys? Is she going to have a great girls' time? Is she not inviting her fiance because of particular issues in their relationship, such as when he's with her he pressures her to fit into the mold he wants, or because he criticizes her friends?

We have no idea; only they two do. 

The real point here is they need to communicate better, to get on an even keel.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Turnera,
I find your comments hard to understand. Mage has given us a decent amount of context at this point. She seems VERY self focused AND unconcerned about his feelings. The self focused is ok - the lack of concern for a fiance not so much. 

If she wants to go to Europe and try to have some romance - which is honestly what it sounds like - I really think that is fine provided she is open and honest about it. The thing is I don't think she IS being honest about it. She is playing the "I want to go with friends" card when it sounds like she wants to be able to 
"play the field".

Lets see how he answers the questions about who she wants to travel with and why.

And as for equating a bachelor party with a 3 month trip to Europe without your fiance. Your logic escapes me. You are saying that in both cases it is about getting something "out of your system." and that makes the two things equivalent?

That might be a point of overlap but if she has a fling in Rome with a hot Italian guy and can't get him off her mind that is totally different and likely very harmful to their impending marriage. Different when compared to Mage getting a lap dance. BTW - before anyone scorches me on that point I have never personally had a lap dance and I did not have a bachelor party. And I don't think Mage is planning to have a bachelor party where he has sexual contact with women. 

But as with all things - when I reverse polarity:
- If my wife had wanted a bachlorette party and I suspected she might get a lap dance - and it was clearly some big deal to get out of her system - big yawn - I never would have said a word about it and never would have lost sleep over it. 
- If however my wife wanted to have hot Viking sex with Sven in Reykjavik to get that out of her system - then our engagement would have been off and we are both free to date until we BOTH want to be monogamous. 









turnera said:


> It's the same in the sense of getting something out of your system. If that's indeed her goal.
> 
> Who says she's going to get attached to someone? All I see is that she wants to travel.
> 
> ...


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## mage62 (Mar 27, 2010)

Hello again all,
Sorry for the confusion.... She did invite me to go with her. She wants to do the 3 month thing with me. She says that she may want to travel sometimes with just her friends though. That's what has me baffled. My gut tells me there is more. She says they would be one or two week trips if she goes with just her friends. She explained that she just doesn't want to regret not doing this before we have children. That is her biggest fear.... To have kids and then miss this opportunity. Does this make sense to anyone?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I was mainly trying to point out that we only have mage's side of this. And - no offense to mage, just a generalized statement - none of us tends to point out, or even recognize, our own faults. 

I've seen it over and over again that people give advice on what they see in the posts, and then the other person comes on and tells their side, or the OP admits some things they left out so they wouldn't look bad, which totally changes the advice we would have given.

Not saying mage is doing it. Just that we only know one side, and we don't know what she is thinking, and we don't know what their total relationship is like, and her reasoning for going on the one or two week trips with her girlfriends without him MAY be due to something to do with him. We'll never know, unless she comes on here and tells us. 

I'm just saying that we should be more open minded about their situation because their may be, and probably is, more to the story than we know.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

That's fair. 

Mage,
My wife has a group of GF's I like. If she wanted to go on a 1-2 week trip with them once a year / periodically I would simply say - have a great time. 

Until you answer my other questions about whether you think she is REALLY into you or not that into you - I have no basis for an opinion on your situation. 

How much of her attraction for you is based on your provider skills? Being a good provider is a beautiful thing - BTDT^2

My view if that if a woman is REALLY into you and you are a good/great provider than that acts as an emotional amplifier. But if the provider thing is the primary reason she is with you - well those are the marriages that become sexless and tense within 1 year of the last child being born and often earlier than that. 

My concerns about your situation are based on my earlier comments. I mean sure - she backed off the Europe thing when you were going to break the engagement - but what will you do if she stops having sex with you after you have kids? BTW those two acts have a huge common factor - they both require a high degree of indifference to your stated priorities. 

For instance - she KNEW how you felt about LDRs and yet tried to jam an open ended LDR on you after you two bought the house got engaged. 

I just bring this up because sex drives are different. And in most marriages the great equalizer is commitment to your partners priorities. Sex is important to my wife BECAUSE it is important to me - NOT because it is that important to her. 

The guys come on here who are getting treated poorly and yes it is often sexual starvation - the common factor is their wives only care about how the H feels if it is actually going to cause a divorce. They don't care if he is miserable as long as it doesn't cause him to take action. 




turnera said:


> I was mainly trying to point out that we only have mage's side of this. And - no offense to mage, just a generalized statement - none of us tends to point out, or even recognize, our own faults.
> 
> I've seen it over and over again that people give advice on what they see in the posts, and then the other person comes on and tells their side, or the OP admits some things they left out so they wouldn't look bad, which totally changes the advice we would have given.
> 
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yeah, but that's no different from the wife who tells her husband for 20 years what she needs in the marriage - help with the house or the kids, conversation, time together, interest in what she wants - and he blissfully goes along ignoring her because she is still meeting all his needs. Until she gives up and files for divorce. She is now out of love for him. And then he scrambles like crazy to try to 'be' the man she'd been asking for for 20 years, and he comes on here and says 'It's been two weeks. She won't come back! What's wrong with her?'

Outside of infidelity, I've seen more of THAT story on forums than any other. I could recite the words the men say from memory, there've been so many.

The third most common I see is the wife who quits wanting or giving bedroom time. And she frankly doesn't understand it's part of her responsibility as a married woman, or doesn't care.

Sorry for the T/J.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Mage, she has a travel bug. Those of us who have it know that it's got to happen before kids or much later. "Much later" could become "never," as we all know, so she is wise to pay attention to it b.c. (before children). I still think she simply felt she had to bring this up, having realized how strong the feeling was in her. She values you and she was willing to work with your position. 

As for traveling with friends, that's about as far as most women are willing to go to be "independent," as in, taking care of themselves and not depending on anyone else. Lots more would travel alone if they felt safe. Some do. It's rare, and you can probably only imagine how it feels never to feel fairly safe alone--yet women have to live with that. It is irksome at times. I have camped and traveled on my own, but only as an older woman--the messages about safety made me insecure when younger, and as I got older and more self-confident (and realized I could trust my judgment on some things more than I had), I just fell more comfortable doing it and love it. Most women won't even experience this as a conscious thought, it is so ingrained in us to be more careful than men are ever taught to be. But, at core we aren't that different. 

FYI: there is nothing more annoying and unwelcome on these trips w/friends than the dependent gf who expects her gfs to take care of things. Sometimes we put up with that friend b/c they are just a lot of fun, but we can't help but make fun of the fact that they are the needy, dependent one. That may help you understand why your gf wants to be on her "own" sometimes. 


Mem, I don't know how old you are, but the idea that women are looking for a good provider is outdated for a lot of young women. They do not want to be financially dependent on anyone. This may be a class issue, but I honestly do not know a single woman who values a man's ability to "provide for them"--they value his contribution, just as they value and expect their own contribution, to the family's support. I work with middle class students and college-aged people (and have for 2 decades) and it is simply not on girls' radar in these groups. The very independence of the girl in question here is, IMO, evidence that she is not after him for being a "provider."

And the "good provider" thing does not even stand up in earlier societies--one man could never have provided for a family's needs; the woman's work and the work of the group was essential for survival. It is a misappropriate of history and anthropology to assume that women (outside of a relatively brief period in history), are "dependent" on what a man provides. 

As for the analogy btw traveling alone and bachelor party--I think the common thread is simply "getting something out of your system." It is about "sex," so to speak, with the bachelor party; it's about getting the travel bug satisfied and "out of your system" in the other situation. I don't think anyone meant she's asking for 3 months to have sex with other people. If they meant that, they should be explicit about it. There are lots of things we all need to get out of our system, and not all of 'em are related to sex.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

sisters, thanks. That's exactly what I was trying to say.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

As for the H's who don't listen - I totally agree. And by listen I mean "truly understand what W is saying and then adjust behavior accordingly." As for the guys who come on here saying "well I knew she was upset and unhappy about X and Y and Z" but I didn't think she would divorce me over it - I admit I don't understand those guys. And I strive to be the opposite of them. 





turnera said:


> Yeah, but that's no different from the wife who tells her husband for 20 years what she needs in the marriage - help with the house or the kids, conversation, time together, interest in what she wants - and he blissfully goes along ignoring her because she is still meeting all his needs. Until she gives up and files for divorce. She is now out of love for him. And then he scrambles like crazy to try to 'be' the man she'd been asking for for 20 years, and he comes on here and says 'It's been two weeks. She won't come back! What's wrong with her?'
> 
> Outside of infidelity, I've seen more of THAT story on forums than any other. I could recite the words the men say from memory, there've been so many.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sisters,
I am 47 and I agree with you about this myth regarding the 50's housewife. Most of those women had to earn some money - very few had sole provider husbands. 

As for provider stuff - I think a subset of women don't really care much about stuff - still most women are practical. For instance I really don't think my wife is materialistic. However she wanted to stay home with the kids when they were little/medium sized. She wanted 3 kids. Any guy who clearly couldn't pull that off got eliminated. The fact you "could" pull it off didn't mean that you could be a bastard or have no manners or be a womanizer. 

I just think - you look at what happens in a lot of marriages and the women come on here and say: I was never really "in love" with him, but he was so good to me and I knew he would work hard to support our future family and that became the factor that tipped her over the edge. Generally NOT happy marriages in the long run for either person. Their husbands come on here and talk about how their sex life started to change for the worse soon as they got married. There is a reason for all the jokes about how wedding cake cures sex drives/utterly removes the desire to give bjs etc. 

The jokes aren't so much about a type of woman as they are a type of woman who is over weighting provider skills/and or is not skilled at teaching her mate what it is that heats her up. And yes it is also about a male who doesn't insist on being treated as well as he is treating his spouse. And it is also about a male who doesn't ask good questions about what heats her up. 

I give Mage high marks in assertiveness I simply think the picture he is painting sounds a bit like many of these slow motion train wrecks I read about on here. 




sisters359 said:


> Mage, she has a travel bug. Those of us who have it know that it's got to happen before kids or much later. "Much later" could become "never," as we all know, so she is wise to pay attention to it b.c. (before children). I still think she simply felt she had to bring this up, having realized how strong the feeling was in her. She values you and she was willing to work with your position.
> 
> As for traveling with friends, that's about as far as most women are willing to go to be "independent," as in, taking care of themselves and not depending on anyone else. Lots more would travel alone if they felt safe. Some do. It's rare, and you can probably only imagine how it feels never to feel fairly safe alone--yet women have to live with that. It is irksome at times. I have camped and traveled on my own, but only as an older woman--the messages about safety made me insecure when younger, and as I got older and more self-confident (and realized I could trust my judgment on some things more than I had), I just fell more comfortable doing it and love it. Most women won't even experience this as a conscious thought, it is so ingrained in us to be more careful than men are ever taught to be. But, at core we aren't that different.
> 
> ...


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## mage62 (Mar 27, 2010)

MEM, Sisters, and Turnera,
Thank you all for the great feedback. 

Sisters,
I believe you hit the bullseye in describing the travel bug. It sounds exactly like what she is thinking and going through at the moment. I understand it completely. I just have a concern about us talking about this before out in the open before anything got serious, and then her completely changing her mind in a way that makes me feel like my feelings are of no concern. She says she loves, she says she wants to be with me, but the vibe from her is different. See points below.

MEM,
I believe you do have a point with the whole "into you" thing. our relationship has changed a lot since she got back from europe. Prior to her going, we were very into eachother. We told eachother all the time how we love each other, couldn't keep our hands off of each other, and had lots of sex. Today the picture is the complete opposite. We don't even cuddle in bed anymore. I'll even try to put my arm around her and she says she is not in the mood. Before she left to europe, she would get upriled if I didn't have my arm around her when we slept. These are all signs to me that the relationship is changing or has changed. She says she just doesn't have a strong libido right now and doesn't know how else to explain it.... but from what I've heard and learned about women from experience, if nothing is off and everything is right this should not be a problem. Obviously something is "off". 

Ladies do you agree with me? If not, please give me your point of view.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sorry, but she most likely met someone there. And now her 'eyes are opened' to what she'd be missing out on.

The libido thing is an ENORMOUS red flag for 'I slept with someone.'


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

> I just think - you look at what happens in a lot of marriages and the women come on here and say: I was never really "in love" with him, but he was so good to me and I knew he would work hard to support our future family and that became the factor that tipped her over the edge. Generally NOT happy marriages in the long run for either person.


I understand this. Anyone getting married today is likely to consider whether their spouse will contribute to supporting the family and few people want to be with someone who will make no effort to support the family--but that is very different from a woman who is looking for a guy to "take care of her" financially, 100%. 

Also, as a woman who probably made the choice a long time ago, the earning power of the guy is a lot less significant than the fact that he seemed to love me. Maybe I was unusual, but the idea of "a good provider" would never have registered with me. A good partner/team mate in achieving mutual goals, yes; a source of money I could spend? Never. 

Mage, if she's behaving differently, then you are wise to notice. Yes, the decline in sexual attraction/libido is a big red flag, but I don't think it has anything to do with an affair--I would guess it has a lot more to do with a life she's realized she does not want to give up--the freedom and the opportunity that goes with it. You seem pretty independent-minded, too, so just ask her--is she regretting decisions that will end her freedom? Has she glimpsed a life she wants to lead that is different from the one she thought she wanted? She may love you and she may want to put aside these longings--but be very careful about letting her do that. I personally would hold out for someone who has no "dream" or alternate plan to be mourned if they stay with me. Maybe some people think that's normal--in choosing one life, we obviously have to let go of other options-but do we obviously need to mourn those, or is it only "right" when we can choose one person without mourning anything we thus turned away from? I've tried the first way and will now try the latter. If I live long enough, I might get a chance to report back on the experiment


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## mage62 (Mar 27, 2010)

I asked her that and she swears that did not happen. I asked her to just be honest with me and she swears up and down that she did not meet anybody and that she did not sleep with anybody.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*uh oh*

Mage,
Let me take you through the whole sex thing from the vantage point of a 21 year happy marriage. I am going to start and end with the golden rule. Everything wife does to me and I do to her/with her gets assessed against that standard. So lets say you had a temporary libido crash. Would you cut off affection to her? Would you reject her sexually or would you let her get you in the mood? Hypothetically - even if you couldn't come but you knew sex was REALLY important to her - would you do it for her and would doing that make you feel good? 

Most women have a decrease in libido during a LTR - what separates the girls from the women is whether they get genuine pleasure from pleasing their partners. Which means the WOMEN do two things:
1. Make the effort to let their men get them in the mood even when they are starting out not in the mood AND
2. Enjoy sex as an act of giving even when they can't really be fully gotten in the mood

In the long run it is not about lust - it is about commitment to your partners happiness.

Same thing is true in reverse. W was exhausted last two nights. Offered me sex BOTH nights - very very kind of her. Both nights I said: Wow - that is incredibly nice of you given how tired you are and NO - I am not going to be selfish and accept. Lie down so I can put you to sleep with a killer massage. 

And the thing is I really enjoyed giving her the massage and yes I am also a little bit sexually frustrated because I had gone away for 4 nights to visit a friend - so the last two nights are days 5 and 6 in a row with no sex. And by day 4 I start to feel a little tense which she knows which is why she was so willing to offer. But hey I chose to go away for 4 days - she is working hard and didn't choose to be tired she just was. Still tonight we will connect if I want and that will be nice. 

People who are super focused on their OWN happiness make marginal partners. Just be glad her sexual attitudes are becoming clear to you now - and not after 2-3 kids. 




mage62 said:


> MEM, Sisters, and Turnera,
> Thank you all for the great feedback.
> 
> Sisters,
> ...


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## mage62 (Mar 27, 2010)

sisters,
Its funny you mention the word freedom... because that is a word that she says a lot lately. She says she doesn't want to be "free from me or us" but does want to be "free to travel with other friends and meet new people in her travels". To me, it sounds a lot like having your cake and eating it too.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

mage, she may not have done anything, but I will bet you $100 that she met and flirted with SOMEONE, at the very least. 

Greener pastures (resolved or not) is almost always the reason women suddenly lose libido. They can't be with more than one person romantically and physically. Even if her mind is just wandering to that cute guy she met over there, and did nothing with, she'll still look at you and not be able to consider having sex with you. That's just how women's minds work.

You think she's going to tell you the truth?


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## mage62 (Mar 27, 2010)

I believe she is telling me the truth. She has never given me a reason to doubt her. It's all very confusing and very overwhelming.


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## tuffGong (Apr 10, 2010)

Mage, all you have to do is read MEM's post. He seems to be full of insight. I whole heartedly agree with everything he wrote about your situation to this point. A key point is how much she is "into you." Do you really think that a woman who is into you will even consider running off to the other side of the world with her friends? Women who respect you, love you and are into you don't think like that. Don't ever underestimate the concept of "into to you."

Another flag is the word I bolded in your quote below. What types of "new people" is she looking forward to meet with her girl friends, more girl friends?

With everything you've posted so far I say that you shouldn't even wait for her to make a decision. If I were in your situation I would seriously consider ending the relationship myself. Heck, sex and affection are drying up now and you aren't even married. Not to mention her abandonment of the commitment she made to you. What happens if you stay with her, marry her, have kids and she starts resenting you for her decision to not go travel like she wanted. How about if even after kids she still decides to go traveling with her girl friends because it is "something she has to do." There are some serious issues here.

Good luck.



mage62 said:


> sisters,
> Its funny you mention the word freedom... because that is a word that she says a lot lately. She says she doesn't want to be "free from me or us" but does want to be "free to travel with other friends and *meet new people *in her travels". To me, it sounds a lot like having your cake and eating it too.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mage,

Clearly you are a very bright guy. Here is what I have learned over the years. The "WHY" usually doesn't matter so much. There are lots and lots of reasons my wife (and any other woman) has libido troughs. Stress from kids, from work, from friends and extended family. Could be some emotional jet wash from a wholly unintentional emotional affair. Pre-menopause caused my W to have some inflammation "down there" for two months 2 summers ago and last summer. We both went the extra mile for each other during those times. I would have been astonished and frankly highly offended if she had said "this is a medical problem - just deal with it." Because when something is important to her - I find a way. 

As did she. She absolutely did not expect me to be celibate during those times and frankly was super nice about how she handled it. And I didn't / never treat her like an inflatable sex toy and I ratcheted back on frequency and did my best to never leave her feeling guilty about the situation. 

I am going to equate two things - this might be politically incorrect - but it is honest. There were lots and lots of obstacles over the years at the places I worked. I could have easily at any point told any of my bosses to f-off. I could have quit when work exceeded a certain level of stress. I could have just stopped working hard and likely gotten fired. Didn't do that - she was counting on me - our 3 kids were counting on me. I wasn't a jerk about it - didn't come home and kick the dog/yell at the 3 kids/wife when I had a hard day. Loved all 4 of them - was glad to work hard for them. During that time wife was wholly dependent on ME for her/our financial well being. Just as I was dependent on her to care for the kids, and no it wasn't even close to 50/50 - I worked a LOT and she was home full time so parenting back then was 85/15. 

BTW - In addition to the money thing there are lots and lots of other things important to her that I happily take care of/do all for the same reason - like to make her happy. Just mentioned work because it had a combination of both high difficulty and high priority.

And it is true that I was also dependent on her for sex having the much higher drive. And she understood that the sacrifice of marital celibacy is accompanied by an equally large responsibility to satisfy your partner sexually. So the "WHY" of a libido crash while interesting is not nearly as important as the "WAY" your partner deals with it. One can be a mystifyingly complex mix of issues - the other is very simple to assess. 




mage62 said:


> I asked her that and she swears that did not happen. I asked her to just be honest with me and she swears up and down that she did not meet anybody and that she did not sleep with anybody.


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## kenmoore14217 (Apr 8, 2010)

Ok, here goes. She either wants to get Europe out of her system and then get into 'your' system or she wants to get into Europe' system and out of 'your' system.

She's playing both ends against the middle or having her cake and eating it to. 

By you putting a halt to the operation has caught her off guard and now she feels forced to make a decision before she's ready.

Either way I would suggest that you move on!!


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## mage62 (Mar 27, 2010)

Hello again all,
Well, my fiance and I had the conversations of all conversations last night. I pretty much broke down and told her that this whole situation is making me extremely stressed and borderline depressed. I told her that there are so many implications behind this situation. I told her:


You're not ready to be married
You don't want to be married to me
You want to be single
You met someone in europe / had a fling
You cheated on me
You realized that the life you now have doesn't compare to the life you could have in Europe
You want to be in Europe instead of being here with me

She says that she now totally understands where I'm coming from. She realizes that she made a big mistake in waiting until this point in our relationship to live this dream. She honestly thought she could have done it even at this point. 

Here responses to the above are:

She didn't cheat on me
She didn't meet anyone
She likes the European culture
She is terrified of never being able to go back before children because she believes her life will be about me and the kids only
She says she wants to marry me, that she loves me, and will do whatever it takes to make me happy so we can be happy together.

She says that this entire time she was trying to "feel me out" to see what could and could not work for me. Since I told her that her moving to Europe would not work for me she decided that it was something she wasn't willing to do. So she decided that we could go for 3 months (i have a sabbatical next year) backpacking together around europe and that she would like to visit for a week or two with friends on her own. She said she's very sorry about everything and had no idea it was hurting me this bad.

We also had a big conversation regarding what our needs are. She says she fealt unhappy with me for the last several months because she started to feel like a mom taking care of a kid instead of having a partner. In other words, she fealth like she was the one being responsible. She bought our groceries (with our money), she does the bills, she does a lot more of the cleaning, and she's the one constantly looking out for our future. Now, to give her some credit, she did do a lot more of the "house stuff". However, she put a lot of pressure on herself to make everything "perfect". If things were not "perfect", she would freak out. I would come home after work and she would be irritable and frustrated because the house was not spotless.

Now, again I say she is kind of right because she did do a lot more of the housework. However, she does a lot of the housework while I'm at work. I work 40 - 50 hours a week. She works anywhere from 4 - 30 hrs a week. I'm an engineer. She works in hospital OR's for neuro surgeons (she does everything on a case by case basis but gets a salary. Its a sweet gig). I would honestly come home exhausted every night because my job has a lot of stress. Her's does too, but she has A LOT more free time. I would come home very tired and she would want me to start doing house work. 

Now, I will admit that there were times when I didn't live up to my household responsibilities, even after I agreed to do them by a certain time. She is right to be angry with me on this. I still think she was putting too much pressure on herself though, in fact, she admitted it to me last night that this was the case. 

So after last night, we agreed to be better about certain things to see how things go. I'll be better with the house stuff, and she won't be a perfectionist. Things started to look a lot better after this. We still haven't had sex (it was very late at night), but she is a lot more affectionate. She hugs my arms, she lays on me, and slaps my ass when I walk by. Its a lot more like the way things were prior to her trip.

May I add that she was also stressed out about being pregnant. We haven't had a lot of sex, but we did have sex the night she got back from her trip (which was around her ovulation time,.... I'm weird I keep track of that stuff and it was without protection. This whole mess started the following day). So we went and got a pregnancy test and she's not pregnant. 

Anyway, how does this now sound to everyone? I feel a lot better, not perfect but better. I'm still concerned about her needing to experience this but do you all think thats its possible and realistic for her to do this and then for us to move forward with marriage?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I guess if I were in your shoes, I would do one more thing before I decided to settle down and accept her explanation and move forward. I would go visit each of the friends she took the trip with - personally so I could see their faces - and ask them what happened. If you're comfortable with how they answer you, then move on.


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## mage62 (Mar 27, 2010)

I would love too, but she went with only 1 real friend that lives across the country. We live in the southwest and the friend she went with lives in Chicago that used to live where we live. She went with a group of girls that were her friends new Chicago friends. 

I hope that makes sense.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yeah. I guess you'll never know then. You'll just have to trust her to tell the truth and hope it doesn't create an issue down the road. Good luck.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mage,
I think you did incredibly well. Hats off to you - giant steel balls and a logical mind are an unstoppable combo. I don't think she cheated on you. 

In a sense this looks to me like a GIANT male fitness test. If you had flinched you would have confirmed in her mind that deep down you believe she deserves better than you and that the only way you could compensate for that is for both of you to fully focus on her needs without any real thought for your needs. And you stood there and said - I am your equal - if you don't want to be with me under those terms I accept that. 

I do think you two are going to have to come to an equitable arrangement on housework factoring in your work hours and her work hours and anything else that should come into play. Housework split can be a huge lovebuster over time. But she has to be fair - it gets complicated. If my wife made half what I did and worked fewer than half the hours I did than I would not be agreeable to doing half the housework. If she earned the same as me, and worked half as many hours - well I would beg for mercy but I wouldn't ask her to do more laundry just because she was more efficient at making money. 

I do not think she cheated on you. I just don't think she did. And I also don't think you should ever bring that up again as lack of trust is very wearing on a relationship. 

But she needs to tell you why she has been so - not nice - physically cold - to you for quite some time now. Because THAT is a pattern you better break before marriage. 

I am struggling with the pregnancy fear causing her to pull away from you like that. It seems equally likely that she was angry at you/punishing you for not being agreeable about supporting her life dream. And that is actually ok - as a one time mistake on her part. But if she is going to be cold/refuse sex whenever she doesn't get her way on something major that is not going to make for a happy marriage. I really think you need to dig into that. 






mage62 said:


> I would love too, but she went with only 1 real friend that lives across the country. We live in the southwest and the friend she went with lives in Chicago that used to live where we live. She went with a group of girls that were her friends new Chicago friends.
> 
> I hope that makes sense.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well said.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

> mage, she may not have done anything, but I will bet you $100 that she met and flirted with SOMEONE, at the very least.
> 
> Greener pastures (resolved or not) is almost always the reason women suddenly lose libido.


Mage, I continue to disagree with the idea that another person is involved. Women lose their libido for a LOT of reasons. Once you mentioned she thought she *might* be pregnant, and knowing she's not ready for that (from what you've said), I figured, that's it. Nothing like a pg scare to turn one's libido to OFF! Also, feeling a dream slipping away would do it, too. I'm glad you've talked out these things.

Also, although Mem's point about how we handle things is well taken, I think it is a huge mistake for a woman to continue to have sex if her libido has been affected by anger or resentment towards the man. Therefore, figuring out the real reason becomes important. As a woman, I can tell you that nothing made me feel more like an available hole than having my body touched when I had no desire--even if desire returned with some pawing. I do not know what it would feel like if my libido had declined for some other reason. Libido will decline when it becomes apparent the man has no real interest in her happiness. Having sex with someone who has consistently failed to meet the woman's needs and take her requests into account will be a mistake, so don't do this. The WORST thing you can do is make promises about what you will do and then not keep them. This is childish. You must take very seriously her words to that effect. And don't try to play the "needs reduction" card too much; hold that one out for the big things. Men typically (and there's a book on this, "Second Shift") will reduce what needs to be done so they can avoid it, and yet it's stuff that is important to her. So before you say, "we don't need to do that" or "that's good enough," think about it. It's important to her. Is it really worth--in each situation, ask yourself--denying her something important to her? If you look at it that way, you'll have a much better relationship. Kind of what Mem said women should do with sex, and yes, there are times when each of you will need to deny the other something they want. But keep it few and far between if you can, for optimal happiness.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Of course that's all true, and possible in his case. But didn't the change come about at the same time as the trip?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I would be the first to agree it is a difficult situation when relationship conflict causes a libido crash. 

The more a person sees sex as an exercise in "receiving pleasure" the more loss of libido impacts their willingness to have sex. 

Conversely the more a person sees sex as an exercise in (giving) pleasing their partner, the less impact loss of raw libido has on their sex life especially if they have a partner who makes the effort to please them in bed. This type person doesn't start off feeling angry/put upon when their drive is low, they start to play with a giving focus and along the way often end up aroused and then satisfied. And yes - this is predicated on their partner being a giver also - this whole deal becomes parasitic if you have a strong giver and a strong taker. Two givers - one with a high libido the other a low libido - can make it work well. 

Maybe this seems one sided - but it isn't for us. Last night W was exhausted and so I gave her a prolonged massage with zero intention of turning her on, sexually connecting. She was feeling a little guilty and asked a couple times if I wanted to have sex - I just laughed and said "touching your body like this is a special type of joy for me - my hands love you - this is a type of sex to me so just relax and enjoy"

I would also say that to sustain a healthy relationship you sometimes do what feels unnatural. 

Somewhere around the mid-point in our marriage I realized that no matter how much conflict we might be having it was good for us/her/me for me to go to church with her and the kids on Sunday. And while I do this as a kindness to her - not as a true believer - doing it is a tangible message of:
"I love you - and you matter to me - and whats important to you is by definition important to me"

And so - middle of intense conflict - I not only go - I am civil. And that message is - I am angry - but still committed - I am angry - and it is also true that I still love you.

And yes - sometimes internally the little gray wolf monkey that lives inside of me says "don't go - show her who's boss" and that is a voice I have learned to ignore. 

Rotating the table 180 degrees - my wife regularly connects with me solely for ME - could be there is some background conflict between us, with one of the kids, or could be she is tired - etc. And more than half of those offers I smile and decline - tell her I hope tomorrow is a less stressful day for her. And mostly she lets me decline - she says how nice I am - but if it has been more than 4-5 days good chance she will say "stop talking, stop arguing with me, take off your clothes and then take charge"

Sister - the loudest - clearest - strongest "I love you" I ever hear is when my wife says "lets connect tonight - and I KNOW she isn't really feeling it physically." As to whether or not I say yes and we connect - it doesn't matter - the message is loud and clear and real and that message feels better than anything else in my universe. 

And I try hard to echo that back with my favorite phrase "I love you enough not to make love to you tonight"




sisters359 said:


> Mage, I continue to disagree with the idea that another person is involved. Women lose their libido for a LOT of reasons. Once you mentioned she thought she *might* be pregnant, and knowing she's not ready for that (from what you've said), I figured, that's it. Nothing like a pg scare to turn one's libido to OFF! Also, feeling a dream slipping away would do it, too. I'm glad you've talked out these things.
> 
> Also, although Mem's point about how we handle things is well taken, I think it is a huge mistake for a woman to continue to have sex if her libido has been affected by anger or resentment towards the man. Therefore, figuring out the real reason becomes important. As a woman, I can tell you that nothing made me feel more like an available hole than having my body touched when I had no desire--even if desire returned with some pawing. I do not know what it would feel like if my libido had declined for some other reason. Libido will decline when it becomes apparent the man has no real interest in her happiness. Having sex with someone who has consistently failed to meet the woman's needs and take her requests into account will be a mistake, so don't do this. The WORST thing you can do is make promises about what you will do and then not keep them. This is childish. You must take very seriously her words to that effect. And don't try to play the "needs reduction" card too much; hold that one out for the big things. Men typically (and there's a book on this, "Second Shift") will reduce what needs to be done so they can avoid it, and yet it's stuff that is important to her. So before you say, "we don't need to do that" or "that's good enough," think about it. It's important to her. Is it really worth--in each situation, ask yourself--denying her something important to her? If you look at it that way, you'll have a much better relationship. Kind of what Mem said women should do with sex, and yes, there are times when each of you will need to deny the other something they want. But keep it few and far between if you can, for optimal happiness.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mem, can I just be the first one to say that probably 90% of the women who post here would give their firstborn son to have you for a spouse.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Turnera,
That is truly very kind of you. I like to say my wife sand blasted the rough edges off my personality - a very painful but ultimately rewarding process for both of us. 

I think your H is also a very lucky man. You are smart and thoughtful and fair. 




turnera said:


> Mem, can I just be the first one to say that probably 90% of the women who post here would give their firstborn son to have you for a spouse.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You don't know how much that helps me today. It's been an intense day for me, of me - as usual - giving up everything that matters to me, to make sure my husband and daughter are as happy as possible. And here I sit, wishing I were alone for the rest of my life.

Sorry for the threadjack.


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