# Detaching. Seems my best approach right now.



## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

It has been an interesting two weeks.
Good for me, for sure.
For my marriage? I don't know.
For my husband? I don't know.

I'm posting so I can get these thoughts out of my head and maybe get support.

Here's the skinny:

Two weeks ago, I posted that H lost his temper and left my grandmother's house during dinner.
Link to that discussion is here:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/24159-handled-hs-disrespect-well-i-could-end-my-rope-men-help-5.html#post296925

I was out of town for the next two weeks, and I kept my temp and tone cool for the most part.
I distanced. He had pushed me away with his angry outburst and storm-out.
Not to mention his clear refusal to talk calmly about his frustration.
So in short, we didn't talk for 2 weeks.
Polite texts here and there, but that's it.
But I made peace within myself emotionally and spiritually with what had happened, and decided to extend an olive branch in a way I was comfortable:
I sent him a facebook message--peaceful, no "discussion" about what had happened, but no lovey-dovey either. Just a "hey, hope you're well, see you in a few days" message. 
No reply from him.

Cut to Thursday--he was scheduled to drive 5 hours, pick up my sister, and drive 4 more hours to meet me at my parents' house for Easter weekend.
So I called him to touch base and wish him safe driving.
I heard the tension in his voice and asked what was wrong. He lashed out: "Youre upset!! Stop lying and telling me you're not upset!!!"
I stayed cool and exited the conversation.

My take on it: he was UNHAPPY with where I stand/stood. 
With my response to what had happened.
He wanted lovey dovey phone calls from me. 
He didn't get that, so he attacked me.
(forget that he couldve called me.)
He couldn't stand that he wasn't controlling our communication.
Well, here's the thing: I was and am perfectly happy with where I stood/stand, and I can accept that he's not.
But if he's not, I won't be yelled at and attacked irrationally.

If he's mad, he can tell me. And we can talk.
But projecting feelings onto ME, I won't tolerate anymore.

Thursday--He arrived with my sister.
In private, she informed me that he had vented to her about what had happened.
Clearly he had his own version/interpretation. Fine. His view is just as valid as mine.

So I approached him and told him if it was still bugging him, he could talk directly to me, later when we're alone.
He obtusely said "I don't know what you're talking about." Fine.

So all weekend I made a conscious and true effort to NOT do the things that set our conflict in motion: correcting him, editing him, asking him for anything, being needy, opening up serious discussions, arguing with him.
Even other people noticed I was much more relaxed with him, even when he did his irritating behaviors: dominated conversations, interrupted people, (not just me), bragged, etc.
I acted as if I truly didnt give a damn what he says or does or how.
Because increasingly, I don't.
And I've treated him with respect at the same time...positive, upbeat, engaging him in conversation, listening to his pov, smiling, happy.

The thing is, I am at the point where I almost just don't care anymore.
I'm so sick of his constant need to prove himself at every turn, that I'm just sitting back, watching, and holding my ground without reacting.

I'm at the point where I can pull back, know I'm doing everything I can, and just LET him punch more holes in this relationship.
Because he has consistently rejected my repair attempts for months.
So if he wants to try to mend, I'm more than happy to participate in that.
But I no longer feel the need to initiate the "fixing."
He seems far too determined to push back those attempts, that it's doing us no good.
And I'm shouldering both our emotional loads,
If it comes time for me to walk, I'll know I've done everything I can.

Right now I feel free of my resentment toward him, and forgiving of him.
But also stable enough in myself to stay detached, care for myself, relax, and wait and see without baiting my breath.
And I feel like I can accept whatever the outcome.

Who knew that finally not giving a damn would feel so good.
I don't know what's going to happen.
But I am gradually becoming free of the inner compulsion to "make" something happen.
So we'll see what he does..,or doesn't do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

It is pretty amazing when you step back and say "whatever". It changes the dynamic and really let's the other person flounder in their issues. Crazy thing is they either sink or swim to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Dedicated2Her said:


> It is pretty amazing when you step back and say "whatever". It changes the dynamic and really let's the other person flounder in their issues. Crazy thing is they either sink or swim to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


D2H, thanks for relating to that.
I appreciate your reply also because I know you're a Christian.
Part of what moved me to extend the olive branch was that it was Holy Week and I just couldn't carry anger into Easter weekend.
I did what I needed to do spiritually to forgive him and move past this most recent debacle. And that's between me and God.
Part of my olive branch was an invitation for him to do the same.
His response was hostile: "get off your high horse."
Well, that's nasty, but it ain't my nasty.
I don't feel the need to fight back, defend myself, react.
I hope and pray that he swims, but if he sinks, I won't go down with him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

meridian.1960 said:


> credamdóchasgra,
> 
> I just wanted to say that you should be very proud of yourself.
> 
> ...


Thank you!

Anything you can share about what your wife did that helped you see your role, I'd appreciate.

I'm starting to see that any time I react to him or try to get something from him to soothe my anxiety, things get worse.

I have a feeling the lack of fear might be my best friend at this point.

I see that he's hurting, insecure, and doesn't know how to maneuver this intimate relationship.
What I will NEED is to see that HE wants to deal with that and learn it himself.
This status quo can't be an interminable excuse for nasty behavior.

P.S. I'm doing likewise for myself--individual therapy. Lest I seem judgmental or hypocritical.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Creda,
I am proud of you. You were supportive and loving without allowing him to treat you like a doormat. 

I believe you have made a powerful observation about him below. HE is insecure and that insecurity drives most of that bad behavior you saw him demonstrate with OTHER people. Up until now I wondered how much you might be doing to "trigger" his bad behaviors. And while you clearly were part of the puzzle it is just as clear that without "any" triggers he behaves in an insecure and difficult manner with you and with others. 

Your detachment is healthy. For the marriage to survive he is going to need to acknowledge his insecurities, become self aware of the bad behaviors that are the "symptoms" of his insecurity and make a conscious effort to work on the underlying issue and the behaviors. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So all weekend I made a conscious and true effort to NOT do the things that set our conflict in motion: correcting him, editing him, asking him for anything, being needy, opening up serious discussions, arguing with him.
Even other people noticed I was much more relaxed with him, even when he did his irritating behaviors: dominated conversations, interrupted people, (not just me), bragged, etc.
I acted as if I truly didnt give a damn what he says or does or how.
Because increasingly, I don't.
And I've treated him with respect at the same time...positive, upbeat, engaging him in conversation, listening to his pov, smiling, happy.






credamdóchasgra said:


> Thank you!
> 
> Anything you can share about what your wife did that helped you see your role, I'd appreciate.
> 
> ...


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Thanks, MEM.

It is amazing how much difference is made from the way I feel inside, and the stance my internal strength helps me have.
The same action toward him--giving a hug, for example--is COMPLETELY different depending on how I feel inside when I do it.
If *I* feel needy and insecure when I do it, it IS a needy and insecure action, and comes across that way.
But if I decide I'M ok with how I'm behaving, and feel strong and confident in myself, that very same action is not needy and insecure, and comes across the way *I* want it to.

Also--he has some mistaken interpretations of my actions, but I can accept that until HE decides to communicate directly with me about it.
For example, he claimed--to my sister--that I "waited till the last minute to call him, to 'save face.'"
That assumption is so off-base, so juvenile, and so ridiculous, that it just doesn't merit a response from me.
ESPECIALLY if he can't bother to talk to ME about it, and maybe even ASK me why I didn't call him until I did.

Let him think what he wants.
I know everything I'm doing is sincere and that I have the interests of each of us and our relationship at heart.
No amount of unsolicited "explaining" is going to MAKE my husband see me and love me as I am.

In the meantime...over the past two weeks, I've run the gamut from losing respect for him, anger, hurt, disappointment, pity, to forgiveness and guarded compassion...which aren't enough to comprise the kind of partnership I hope to have in my marriage.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

100 percent agree. This is my mantra:
- Become more attractive AND
- Less available




meridian.1960 said:


> Certainly, she walked out the door.
> 
> That in it self may not work if your desire is to save your marriage, it sounds like that is the case. It will defiantly get his attention, but some guys will allow their wife to leave before they will take responsibility for their own side of the street.
> 
> ...


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

For years I was the angry ***** in my marriage. My husband responded eventually like you are. He stayed calm, refused to argue with me and if I got angry he exited the building.

Long story short is yes he detached and I came around. We ended up in marriage counseling where I saw the error of my ways and am now a changed woman.

So yeah to you for taking that stand. Best thing you could ever do.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

meridian.1960 said:


> Certainly, she walked out the door.
> 
> That in it self may not work if your desire is to save your marriage, it sounds like that is the case. It will defiantly get his attention, but some guys will allow their wife to leave before they will take responsibility for their own side of the street.
> 
> ...


It does.

I don't want to walk out the door.

BUT...

I know that if I have to, I will be absolutely fine and OK.

I consider myself a positive and joyful person with a lot of love (if also a bit neurotic with some codependent tendencies.)

What I'm starting to see is overriding negativity in my husband and an anxious inability to forgive, and I want to see him grow out of that first and foremost FOR HIM.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> 100 percent agree. This is my mantra:
> - Become more attractive AND
> - Less available


I'm aware there's some risk with this...

"Less available" is precisely how I responded this most recent time. 

And he did NOT respond by coming around. On the contrary, he lashed out in anger. On the surface, things got worse.

But it won't deter me from this M.O.
I'm hoping that if I'm consistent, it'll influence our dynamic better overall.

The good thing is, I feel confident that I CAN be consistent.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is how these things typically play out. 
- He is either going to get increasingly antagonistic with you, to try to get you to engage in your "old" patterns or
- He is going to try to improve himself

As for being "antagonistic" he may do that by pointedly ignoring you and then pretending 'nothing' is wrong when you ask him. Either way - you being "calm" makes him feel more anxious and he will try to "break" your calm. 

Don't let him "break your calm". No matter what - if you stay calm - while it may infuriate him - it will increase his respect for you. Walk away if his tone, volume or words become destructive. He needs to get used to hearing you say "we can discuss this when you are calm". 



credamdóchasgra said:


> It does.
> 
> I don't want to walk out the door.
> 
> ...


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> This is how these things typically play out.
> - He is either going to get increasingly antagonistic with you, to try to get you to engage in your "old" patterns or
> - He is going to try to improve himself


Or he could do both. I started with the first and then moved to improving when I saw he wasn't buying it.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> This is how these things typically play out.
> - He is either going to get increasingly antagonistic with you, to try to get you to engage in your "old" patterns or
> - He is going to try to improve himself
> 
> ...


Yes. You read this right.

Right now, he's doing the "pointedly ignoring and pretending 'nothing' is wrong."

2 weeks ago, he pushed and pushed till he got a reaction. At which point he said "AHA!!! See, YOU are CRAZY!"

Yesterday, I handled a minor "test" (which is how I see some of these encounters) okay, but not great:

Him: "Nobody bothered printing the xyz for me to use at church!"
Me: "Why don't you pull it up on the iPad? that's what I did the other day when I didn't print it."
Him: "It's obnoxious to stand there in church with an Ipad!"
Me: "I don't see how it's obnoxious..."
Him: "YOU don't HAVE to know or understand why I think that. It's MY opinion that it's obnoxious, and I'm standing by my opinion!"
Me: "I don't know WHAT you're getting so agitated about!" and walked out of the room.

-->A better response from me would've been to use humor, since it is funny and silly to get all worked up.

"Well!!! OKAY then!!! And the LORD spoketh and outlawed all Ipads from the tabernacle!" 

It's tedious that every little thing is an opportunity for him to make a defensive principled stand as if he's under attack. He makes things so confrontational and personal.

Sheesh.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes. 

Magnolia,
Is it a fair statement that being unable to crack his calm made you feel weak/insecure/anxious? Because typically people want to get "out" of that anxious state. When they realize they can't "fight" their way out, they begin to take a hard look in the mirror. 




magnoliagal said:


> Or he could do both. I started with the first and then moved to improving when I saw he wasn't buying it.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> Or he could do both. I started with the first and then moved to improving when I saw he wasn't buying it.


Thanks, magnoliagal.

Truth is, early in our relationship, I was the one who would flip my **** over things and lecture him out of my insecurities. And HIS calm response was a real turn-on.
And his letting me know I couldn't get away with ranting was also a turn-on.

Things have changed.
I'll do what I need to do to NOT be a needy, harping PITA, and I'm happier now.

I think he doesn't know how to deal with a calm me. He still sees me as a ranting PITA, and when I show something different, he doesn't know what t odo.


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

Credam- Sometimes in order to really "love" someone we must treat them in a way that is good for them. For instance, right now I have to be detached from my wife in order to allow her to heal and find herself, become happy in who she is, and deal with her issues. It is a great feeling to in effect, give your issues to "the man upstairs" and live by faith. You are doing the right thing. Stay strong.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

credamdóchasgra said:


> "Well!!! OKAY then!!! And the LORD spoketh and outlawed all Ipads from the tabernacle!"
> 
> It's tedious that every little thing is an opportunity for him to make a defensive principled stand as if he's under attack. He makes things so confrontational and personal.
> 
> Sheesh.


HAHA! Welcome to the club! :smthumbup: It does become funny eventually. I think that's when you know you've really beaten it. 

sounds like you're doing great.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Thank you, all.

He just hit me with a passive aggressive comment.
I spent 45 minutes cleaning up my parents' kitchen after dinner, with no help from him (parents and sisters had left the house)

An hour later--Comment as he walks into the kitchen: "oh, you don't know where this goes?" as he puts away something I had left out on the counter.
I *know* him--he was pointing out that I'd missed a step, and that he knew better.

I didn't handle it great.

What wouldve been good: 
"yes, but I left it for you so you could feel useful. You're welcome."

next step--actually using the humorous responses instead of thinking of them later.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

credamdóchasgra said:


> What wouldve been good:
> "yes, but I left it for you so you could feel useful. You're welcome."


no this wouldnt have been good, either. its also very passive aggressive.


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## Leah L (Jan 11, 2011)

It sounds like you feel better, so that is a victory in itself. 

I really feel for you, and I very much get the impression you have really been trying to make your relationship work. 

It is a hard thing to stomach but I believe people do what they want. You sound generous when you talk of him, in that you understand his issues stem from insecurity, etc. Fair enough but you can only help and understand so much...



You know my story....I had enough awhile ago, I decided I was going back to living as if I was single. I respect my husband and I do love him but I am/was sick and tired of dancing around him, making excuses for his behavior. He's a grown man, I cannot "fix" his behavior especially if he won't try! 

I took the plunge and let him know I am moving back home (without him) this summer and gave my renters notice. 

I didn't get melodramatic, didn't explain WHY, because I believe he darn well knows WHY.

Anyway...what shocked me is he now wants to come with ME, and his behavior has improved tremendously. It just seems to prove that is is aware of his behavior and can control it!

He says he very much wants to stay married to me and it has been sooo much better. I haven't changed my plans either, I am still in the driver seat. I don't know that my "warning" is the fix but it seemed to finally get his attention. And the truth is, I am dead serious. I'm too old for this crap, LOL.

I would not advise this unless you are prepared for a different outcome. I was, so it was the right time for me. 

I wish you the best! Leah


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Leah L said:


> It sounds like you feel better, so that is a victory in itself.
> 
> I really feel for you, and I very much get the impression you have really been trying to make your relationship work.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Leah. I'm glad to hear your husband woke up at least for now.

I am frighteningly okay with that "different outcome." 
that worries me a bit--that it's my own impulse to bail partly driving me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Dedicated2Her said:


> Credam- Sometimes in order to really "love" someone we must treat them in a way that is good for them. For instance, right now I have to be detached from my wife in order to allow her to heal and find herself, become happy in who she is, and deal with her issues. It is a great feeling to in effect, give your issues to "the man upstairs" and live by faith. You are doing the right thing. Stay strong.


You're right.

And I don't think "the man upstairs" would want me to force my husband to "see," do or feel anything.

Things are there in front of my H's eyes to see, and his ears to hear.
It's up to him if he wants to see or hear them, or not.

So far, even up through this morning, he only wants to fight against them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Oh, good God. Here's the latest:

H and I drove back up from my parents' house to ours--9 hour drive in total.
Stopped 5 hours in to get my car and visit my sister.

During conversation, I slipped into lecturing/annoying/harping mode, on a topic that tends to bring out my soapbox. 
I acknowledge that I was being a bit of a pain.
H took it personally, and I can see why.
I tried to turn it playful and humorous, and asked H to go out to the car to get something for me. 
No problem. I figured he would welcome the excuse to get away from me for a minute, and he's always the first to volunteer to go get things and take care of things, etc. (maybe I should've gone out to get it myself.)

A couple minutes later I went outside to help him find what I had asked him to get.

Immediately he started berating me in a stern and threatening voice:
"The NEXT time you want to ARGUE with me..."

I cut him off: "If you're angry, please don't talk to me right now."
Then turned and walked away.
He was still yelling behind me.

As I walked away, I was saying "Please don't talk to me while you're angry...shake it off...Cool off...Let it go."

During which he was yelling at me:

"I'M GOING TO LEAVE! I'M GOING TO THROW THESE KEYS ON THE GROUND AND LEAVE! PISS OFF!"

I kept walking. Went inside.

He came in a few minutes later. I thanked him for getting the thing from the car. 

We went out for dinner w/my sister and her boyfriend. Dinner was fine.

He drove his car, I drove my car back up the last 3 hours home.

Home now--I'm cheerful, upbeat, took a shower.

He is surly and grumpy. Stomping around, obviously still angry. 
Righteously believing he has been sorely wronged.

I said "good night" to him, kissed his cheek, and went to bed. He didn't respond.

Here's my question:

*Since I played a role in this at first with my admittedly annoying behavior, is this the best response for me to have right now?*

I would happily apologize for being annoying in the first place, if he could talk to me about it respectfully--minus yelling, threatening, and cussing. 

But I sense that apologizing or bringing it up right now would qualify as "owning his overreaction." 

Or would justify his overreaction and basically say "you were right to scream 'piss off' at me in a parking lot after threatening to throw keys and leave. I'm really sorry I caused that."

So instead I'm letting him stew in his nasty feelings.

If he wants to bring it up when he's calm, I'll be happy to DEFINITELY see his pov and apologize for being a PITA, and even make fun of myself.

But he won't see the possibility of that if I try to talk to him right now. 
Having attempted "dialogues" with him before, in this moment he'll use it to fight with me.

Thoughts?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Send him a quick text. Something like this:
I know I was being a PITA. I am sorry for doing that, I am working hard on that aspect of me. 

Thats it. Full stop. He has a choice - he can acknowledge his over reaction or not. Do not raise it. Do not ask him to. 

If he doesn't realize that yelling and being a jerk are destructive that is on him. You continue to work on you. Ultimately if he doesn't work on him - you will not feel much regret as you walk out the door. 

I am not saying this will be an easy thing to do. It won't. But ultimately it is the right thing to do. 

Overall you are doing great. Truly. I hope he catches the updraft you are creating. If not, some other man is going to fall head over heels for you. 




credamdóchasgra said:


> Oh, good God. Here's the latest:
> 
> H and I drove back up from my parents' house to ours--9 hour drive in total.
> Stopped 5 hours in to get my car and visit my sister.
> ...


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Send him a quick text. Something like this:
> I know I was being a PITA. I am sorry for doing that, I am working hard on that aspect of me.
> 
> Thats it. Full stop. He has a choice - he can acknowledge his over reaction or not. Do not raise it. Do not ask him to.
> ...


I'm not so sure I should utter a word about it.
I feel like it sends the message: "I should not demonstrate those little annoying habits. Ever. You, however, should and are perfectly entitled to lash out in an angry and disrespectful rage. Whenever."
Still seems like it owns and justifies his wacky rage fit.

And does what he accuses: "can't let things go."

How will he ever learn that if something bugs him, he can and should deal with it constructively and rationally?

And how will he ever learn to accept his wife even when she's being a PITA?

My PITA moment wasn't any more egregious than his or the next person's:
someone who loves or likes me mightve thought it was cute.
Someone with a solid sense of himself mightve laughed or looked at me and said "ok, chill. I get it. Enough."

My gut tells me there will be a chance for me to own my PITA tendencies in good humor, without taking the bait on this one.
I.e., when it's not preceded by a tantrum on his part.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

And MEM...

I have done that before---recently and often.

I.e., either been a PITA or reacted strongly during an argument in which he lost his cool and yelled/cussed/flipped.
And then apologized. Without asking for or expecting one from him.
Basically, it's saying "even if YOU go nuts, you can still count on ME to be the peacemaker."

Owning my **** is a comfortable M.O. for me.
Problem is, much of my M.O. hasn't been effective.
Even when I sense I'm doing the right thing.

The hope is that if there's a less destructive "next time," it'll give me a chance to gently say, "if I'm being a PITA, you can let me know calmly, you know. I realize that."

PLUS, I have in the past suggested to him, "honey, we shouldn't discuss issues while we're feeling angry...let's wait till we feel calm."
and he literally ignored me when I suggested it.

My silence shows my commitment to that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

That makes sense



credamdóchasgra said:


> And MEM...
> 
> I have done that before---recently and often.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Yes.
> 
> Magnolia,
> Is it a fair statement that being unable to crack his calm made you feel weak/insecure/anxious? Because typically people want to get "out" of that anxious state. When they realize they can't "fight" their way out, they begin to take a hard look in the mirror.


I think what I wanted was to project my chaos and anxiety onto him so I could feel better. But instead he stayed calm which left me having to own my own feelings. At that point I realized if I was going to feel better I was going to have to do it on my own. That one little thought was the catalyst to what turned my life around.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Update that seems small but is big to me:

when he came to bed a few hours after me, he kissed me good night.

But this morning he left before I was out of bed, and didn't kiss me goodbye.

He NEVER does that---that was intentional.
His way of saying: "I'm still mad, and you're still wrong."

That hurt. I'm in tears of basic resignation here. 

Now what?
Same?

Now I feel like an apology even MORESO sends that message: "I don't deserve your respect and I'll crawl back to you begging for morsels of affection the moment you withdraw in anger."

help....?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Now I feel like an apology even MORESO sends that message: "I don't deserve your respect and I'll crawl back to you begging for morsels of affection the moment you withdraw in anger."
> 
> help....?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He's trying to get you back to the status quo and might do some pretty mean things to do that. Know that it's coming and stay strong. Calm and happy is your best line of defense around an angry, moody person.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

I did the exact same thing a couple of months ago.

The result:

- No arguments or disagreements about anything in two months.
- He is reaching out to me more through calls and even two dinner invitations out.
- He is hugging more, and wanting to be near me more.

Sex issue still not resolved, but I'm patient.

He is beginning to "swim" to me...interesting.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I did the exact same thing a couple of months ago.
> 
> The result:
> 
> ...


Congrats! Glad to see it's working for you and he's coming around.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Update that seems small but is big to me:
> 
> when he came to bed a few hours after me, he kissed me good night.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sit tight and see what happens. Go out more - be home less



credamdóchasgra said:


> Update that seems small but is big to me:
> 
> when he came to bed a few hours after me, he kissed me good night.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Sit tight and see what happens. Go out more - be home less
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I feel like he's--maybe unconsciously--manipulating.

Old status quo:

I anxiously react to this--to restore peace and contact--in one of the following ways:

text something sweet "good morning baby, have a good day."
text an apology "sorry I was a pain yesterday."
text an explanation: "FYI, I left to go sleep on the couch last night so I wouldn't wake you while you were sleeping/snoring." 
(forgot to mention that part; he may be negatively interpreting why I left the bed--though I did come back later.)
in other words: FIX FIX FIX, pursue to restore connection because I can't tolerate HIS distancing and anger.

But this time I'll sit tight and see what happens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I did the exact same thing a couple of months ago.
> 
> The result:
> 
> ...


I'm very happy for you...

But I don't expect my husband to do likewise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> But this time I'll sit tight and see what happens.


Whenever I'm trying to fix things in my marriage that I've been trying to fix for a while I step back and think what do I normally do (kinda like the list you just gave). Then I do something different. Definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. 

Stay strong. You can do this.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> Whenever I'm trying to fix things in my marriage that I've been trying to fix for a while I step back and think what do I normally do (kinda like the list you just gave). Then I do something different. Definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.
> 
> Stay strong. You can do this.


Thank you. I think the same way--it simply hasn't worked consistently.
I want to change the dynamic.

I feel like he's doing the same he wouldve done months ago--yelling, cussing, reacting...
But I'm NOT.

It's hard not to second-guess, though, because it might have gone well if last night I had simply approached him, given a hug, and apologized for my part.
He mightve then apologized for overreacting.
BUT...how will he learn that if you scream and cuss at your wife, she won't want to hug and kiss you?

Then again, he mightve responded to my apology with coldness or a grunt, which he's also done before.

I don't know.

THIS, what I'm doing, is definitely different.
He may or may not see it.

At the moment, I think all he sees are my flaws and the egregious offense of nagging him to exercise.
--which is what set him off. THAT'S what provoked his outburst.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> It's hard not to second-guess, though, because it might have gone well if last night I had simply approached him, given a hug, and apologized for my part.


But isn't this what you always do? The dance is he gets upset easily, throws a tantrum, you apologize for "your" part and he continues to get off on the power he has over you. I've been that angry person and I secretly used to feel great when hubby apologized to me for "his part". But then I never fixed my part it was a one way street which is what I think it mostly is for you to. Am I right?


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> But isn't this what you always do? The dance is he gets upset easily, throws a tantrum, you apologize for "your" part and he continues to get off on the power he has over you. I've been that angry person and I secretly used to feel great when hubby apologized to me for "his part". But then I never fixed my part it was a one way street which is what I think it mostly is for you to. Am I right?


This could be going on in his head on some level. 

In general, yes--the dynamic is that even if he reacts with this level of anger, I'm the first to "own my part" and make peace.

The irony is that this most current situation is a role reversal for us:

I used to be the one to get indignantly offended by something he said, and feel compelled to correct or lecture him RIGHT THEN AND THERE. 

That's basically what he did to me yesterday.

His running line has been, "Good God woman! I'm going to be a blockhead sometimes! Cut me some slack! Don't lecture me! Let me be myself! Don't be so sensitive with your petty little feelings about my blockhead moments!"

Well...likewise, I'm going to be a PITA sometimes...does that make it ok or helpful for HIM to lecture, yell, and cuss at me RIGHT THEN AND THERE, if he doesn't want that from me??

I'm going to let him spin through his nasty feelings, keep being happy and upbeat, keep my temp cool but polite, and see what happens.

I'm predicting he's going to keep being surly.

And eventually if I DO apologize for my particular and special PITA tendencies, it won't be as an anxious reaction to HIM. It'll be a calm, measured, and sincere decision on my part. WHEN HE IS NOT ANGRY.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

He just texted letting me know he's bringing home dinner in a few hours from one of our favorite places.

When I replied "yay! Don't forget the milkshakes!", he replied "yes dear," which is warm-toned, as I read his emotional signals pretty well.

This might create the positive conditions under which I could say "hey, sorry I was annoying yesterday," and feel good about it.

Who knows, we may even spend a decent night together.
God, it feels like it's been forever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WhereAmI (Nov 3, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> He just texted letting me know he's bringing home dinner in a few hours from one of our favorite places.
> 
> When I replied "yay! Don't forget the milkshakes!", he replied "yes dear," which is warm-toned, as I read his emotional signals pretty well.
> 
> ...


I think your prior thought was on the right track. Wait for him to apologize, otherwise you're just repeating the same old pattern. If you wait for him to make the first move, then show appreciation when/if he does, he'll be more likely to own his behavior in the future.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

WhereAmI said:


> I think your prior thought was on the right track. Wait for him to apologize, otherwise you're just repeating the same old pattern. If you wait for him to make the first move, then show appreciation when/if he does, he'll be more likely to own his behavior in the future.


So hard to know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

But...I'm fairly certain he won't apologize.

I don't expect it.

Which is why, if I do...it shows by example that apologizing is a good thing to do, and I'm capable of owning my ****.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I'm very happy for you...
> 
> But I don't expect my husband to do likewise.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have some faith.

He may be just really stubborn.

Not an excuse, but being a very stubborn person myself - it takes us a while to "get it."

I'm not jumping up/down on the bandwagon yet - things change. 

But right now, I feel at peace and not so uptight anymore and worrying about things I can't change or control.


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## WhereAmI (Nov 3, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> But...I'm fairly certain he won't apologize.
> 
> I don't expect it.
> 
> ...


How long have you been setting that example? 

If your relationship were solid I'd say that you're right to apologize first. At the moment your H has major behavior issues. He's still trying to "win." It wouldn't surprise me if he saw your apologies as a trophy. Until you stop rewarding him, I don't think he'll change. Give him a chance to be the bigger person. Say nothing about the fight at all, even if he never brings it up. It's worth trying a few times, right?


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

WhereAmI said:


> How long have you been setting that example?
> 
> If your relationship were solid I'd say that you're right to apologize first. At the moment your H has major behavior issues. He's still trying to "win." It wouldn't surprise me if he saw your apologies as a trophy. Until you stop rewarding him, I don't think he'll change. Give him a chance to be the bigger person. Say nothing about the fight at all, even if he never brings it up. It's worth trying a few times, right?


You have a point.

As I said, I can and will apologize readily when i'm not berated, yelled at, and cursed at.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Have some faith.
> 
> He may be just really stubborn.
> 
> Not an excuse, but being a very stubborn person myself - it takes us a while to "get it."


No doubt he's stubborn.

He's capable of apologizing. I just don't expect it this time.
He's afraid that too much apologizing makes him weak or "losing" somehow.

My dilemma is...I played a role in the initial problem; I believe that he waaay overreacted.

My sister saw the first part of it, what I had said. She said, "jeez Credam, why didn't you let that go?"
Then I told her what he had done afterward, and she said "Yeah, he overreacted."

But...Aren't I *still* accountable to apologize for MY initial role--being a PITA--regardless of whether he overreacted or not afterward?

Not sure.


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

I know it's a fine line here to walk between modeling the kind of accountability that you want and yet not stirring up another storm...

But, that being said, I think that if _he_ brings this whole thing up and apologizes, etc., then you should absolutely own your part of it. Otherwise, if you initiate the apology with the "I'm sorry I was a PITA about that thing yesterday" (or two days ago, whenever it is by the time the conversation might happen) routine, then you're just giving him a can of gas to throw on the whole "you never let anything drop" fire.

I really don't think that for him, you apologizing will do anything but either stir up a tantrum, proving that he's right about "how you always are" (even if you aren't, but you know what I mean) or else give him a way to dump the whole incident on you and still walk away without you getting any resolution.

In this case, accountability and owning your part means that you have clarity on what was really said and what really happened. It can result in an apology should the right time for that happen, but let's be realistic here and just admit that you owning and apologizing for anything isn't going to mean much of anything to him, right? He's got his perception of it all and until he's willing to address the incident, anything you say about it will only exacerbate the situation.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

COGypsy said:


> I know it's a fine line here to walk between modeling the kind of accountability that you want and yet not stirring up another storm...
> 
> But, that being said, I think that if _he_ brings this whole thing up and apologizes, etc., then you should absolutely own your part of it. Otherwise, if you initiate the apology with the "I'm sorry I was a PITA about that thing yesterday" (or two days ago, whenever it is by the time the conversation might happen) routine, then you're just giving him a can of gas to throw on the whole "you never let anything drop" fire.
> 
> ...


Here are my gut feelings:

1. He WONT bring it up, either to apologize or to fight again.
2. I don't worry that saying "I know I was being annoying, sorry about that" will open it up again, because I won't let it. I may say it just before giving him a kiss good night and going to bed. I.e., those words and no more. No expectations or requests for an apology from him in kind. I can say my words and leave it at that.
3. BUT... In the bigger picture, does it do any good or help change this dynamic? That's the part that has me stuck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

yes, what you say below is my concern too.

Does it validate his overreaction?
Does it put the whole thing on me--in his view?



COGypsy said:


> I really don't think that for him, you apologizing will do anything but either stir up a tantrum, proving that he's right about "how you always are" (even if you aren't, but you know what I mean) or else give him a way to dump the whole incident on you and still walk away without you getting any resolution.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Woman with incredibly long Gaelic name....This is a serious question so don't get mad. 

Do you have OCD? Are you on amphetamines?


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> Woman with incredibly long Gaelic name....This is a serious question so don't get mad.
> 
> Do you have OCD? Are you on amphetamines?


Kudos for noticing that it's Gaelic.

That was two questions.

To both--no. I'm thorough.
And unemployed.

How is either of them serious?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Here are my gut feelings:
> 
> 1. He WONT bring it up, either to apologize or to fight again.
> 2. I don't worry that saying "I know I was being annoying, sorry about that" will open it up again, because I won't let it. I may say it just before giving him a kiss good night and going to bed. I.e., those words and no more. No expectations or requests for an apology from him in kind. I can say my words and leave it at that.
> ...


Well, the first thing that occurs to me, is that you ARE getting your apology. He told you hours ago that he's bringing home dinner from a favorite place, right? Not just "picking something up, do you want anything?" He's making an effort to get what you want, moreover, what you LIKE. That's the olive branch there.

I'm guessing that's not feeling like an apology to you. That it probably feels like everything's being swept under the rug because you AREN'T owning, addressing and processing the fight. Therefore clearly, it's all validating his poor choices and perpetuating the whole cycle, have I got it?

But the reality of all of this is that while you take great comfort in being to analyze each angle and permutation of every nuance of behavior and emotion, he really isn't likely to ever do that. He isn't interested in that level of things, but when he makes the effort to remember favorite menus and things like that, it means a lot. 

My husband and I are like that. Both us would probably rather poke sticks in our eyes than process, validate or otherwise touch our feelings. Actual verbal apologies are pretty rare at our house, but we recognize the acts of apology. Take dinner for example. Still Mad? Eat somewhere else with friends or by myself. Not mad but not ready to make up? Pick up dinner at a place _I_ like. Sorry about whatever stupid thing we're fighting about? Pick up something from a place _he_ likes.

So I guess in the end, I'd say enjoy dinner and if it seems right, say your piece. However, I'd just give up on assigning any higher strategy to it, just see how the evening goes. It all happened days ago, it's probably water under the bridge--like putting the dog out after there's a spot on the rug. So just go with the evening and follow your instincts. As they say, "men plan, God laughs"


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I see that. I value and appreciate his dinner olive branch, and I let him know. I don't need an apology from him.

Here's what happened:

he got home at 7 with dinner, in a surly mood again.
Didn't come to kiss me hello, so I came to him and planted one on him.
I was cheerful and upbeat, thanked him for dinner.
I chit-chatted about the day. He grunted.

After dinner he said he had to go back to work.
I said I needed to go run an errand.
Went up to him and said "I know I was a PITA last night, and I'm sorry. See you later, thanks for dinner."
left the house.

Now I'm tired and going to bed.
He's still at work.
I called to say good night.
He answered in a clipped/brisk way, "yes?"
He said "good night" in clipped/brisk way.

Now....
*I* happily accepted his "olive branch," AND apologized for my own part.
I feel free and good with myself.

HE is clearly still carrying anger and bitterness.
I can't do anything about that.
And I won't allow myself to engage with it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Why? You seem all over the lot with scores of finer points to reflect on. Get it down to three or four key points.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> Why? You seem all over the lot with scores of finer points to reflect on. Get it down to three or four key points.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why? To make it easier for you to follow?

I'm not giving a speech. I'm working through my marriage issues.
Perhaps if my husband was working on some of them too, i could narrow it down to 3 or 4.
But at this point all 400 of them rest on my shoulders.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Why? To make it easier for you to follow?
> 
> I'm not giving a speech. I'm working through my marriage issues.
> Perhaps if my husband was working on some of them too, i could narrow it down to 3 or 4.
> ...


Find the root - ignore the branches.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

When he came home in a surly mood you needed to give him a low key
Thanks for dinner and then been upbeat but NOT loving. He is frequently playing this game with you of alternating being mad and not mad quickly and without you doing anything to provoke.
You should not apologize when he has slid rigt back to surly without provocation from you because you are reinforcing his belief that he can intimidate thru anger



credamdóchasgra said:


> I see that. I value and appreciate his dinner olive branch, and I let him know. I don't need an apology from him.
> 
> Here's what happened:
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> When he came home in a surly mood you needed to give him a low key
> Thanks for dinner and then been upbeat but NOT loving. He is frequently playing this game with you of alternating being mad and not mad quickly and without you doing anything to provoke.
> You should not apologize when he has slid rigt back to surly without provocation from you because you are reinforcing his belief that he can intimidate thru anger
> 
> ...


well, I wasn't intimidated.

I think I was unfazed, and sent that impression.

he hadn't slid "back" into it, he had been surly SINCE we got back home.
But whatever.

In any case, I feel ok with and about me.

New day...we'll see what it brings.
So far he's acting "normal," but it's early.
I think he's waiting for me to ask for the apology I deserve from him.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> When he came home in a surly mood you needed to give him a low key
> Thanks for dinner and then been upbeat but NOT loving. He is frequently playing this game with you of alternating being mad and not mad quickly and without you doing anything to provoke.
> You should not apologize when he has slid rigt back to surly without provocation from you because you are reinforcing his belief that he can intimidate thru anger


Exactly. You should NOT have apologized so quickly and not been so loving. You've rewarded his behavior. You've taught him surly = loving wife, angry = apology. Want him to change you will have to change your response to him.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> Exactly. You should NOT have apologized so quickly and not been so loving. You've rewarded his behavior. You've taught him surly = loving wife, angry = apology. Want him to change you will have to change your response to him.


My response to him IS changing.
The "same old" wouldve been to engage further, and look for something from him.

Plus, I know the real equation is:
mistake by me = oops, sorry. Regardless of what he does or doesn't do.

All I did here was be true to myself.

I give myself props for this last stupid thing:

1. I didn't tolerate his tantrum---walked away from it.
2. Didn't get emotional in response to his bad attitude--didn't let it affect me.
3. Owned my ****--that depends on ME, not on him.
4. Left it at that, and left him to stew.

Now i'm free of this. If HE wants to keep being pissy, HE'S initiating that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> No doubt he's stubborn.
> 
> He's capable of apologizing. I just don't expect it this time.
> He's afraid that too much apologizing makes him weak or "losing" somehow.
> ...


I've never had an issue with apologizing first, if it would make the peace and get things back to what I consider normal.

Some people don't apologize as I think it's a form of control on their end.

They have to really look at themselves and say hey - I screwed up or I'm screwed up and for some - it's almost impossible to put themselves into that type of vulnerable situation.

I'm married to one too. In the 27 years we've been together, I've actually only heard the words - I'm sorry come out of his mouth twice - I can even tell you the day and what for, it's so rare. He's very uncomfortable opening himself up to say he screwed up - I think he's afraid that I will take advantage of that and beat it in the ground - don't know why - the two times he's said it, I accepted it and moved on.

I can never and don't know if I ever will figure out everything that is going on in his head and why he does what he does and why he won't talk to me about certain things and how he justifies, to himself, some of his behavior.

He KNOWS that he doesn't behave well at times and will even tell me that he knows that he's not the husband I deserve - so why not effect change?

I don't get it and I guess I never will.


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## themrs (Oct 16, 2009)

I agree meridian. It's not detatching as much as it is changing. She's not reacting in the same way that she once was, but she's still reacting.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

On the outside, I am living for myself for my own sake and being happy.
I'm showing an upbeat, indifferent attitude regardless of his storms.

And on the inside all these thoughts and feelings are still swirling around.
So I'm processing them here.

In the end, I want to save my marriage.
I'm still married to him and hope for the best with us.

My thoughts and feelings are MUCH less influenced by his moods and issues than they used to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

meridian.1960 said:


> credamdóchasgra,
> 
> Just an opinion from an outside view here. I know the issues go much deeper that this, but you may wish to consider this one small point.
> 
> ...


This is what I'm doing.
As best as I can.
My guess is, it takes time.
And Im still working through it HERE.
I know I've come a long way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

meridian.1960 said:


> By no means was my intention to offend or hurt your feelings, if you know in your heart that your moving forward, that is the best that any of us can do.
> 
> I admire your courage to come here and pour out your heart. It shows that you are a person of the highest caliber. Nothing can take that from you.
> 
> I only wish the best for you.


I know, and I appreciate that.

I want to save my marriage without losing myself.
I hope someday he can be my partner.
Not today.

And I want to act with clarity and integrity, and know that no matter what happens, I've done my best and done the right thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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