# Can Men And Women Be Friends?



## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

I heard an interesting story on NPR's Weekend Edition this morning. It was about whether or not men and women can be just friends, with no sexual attraction.

Surprisingly, when asked, the majority of men said no, while the majority of women said yes. In addition, the show referenced a study where most men in 'platonic' friendships said that they were attracted sexually to to their friend, whereas the majority of women said that they were not.

Before my wife's affairs (especially the one with the former boyfriend that she described to me as 'just a really good friend') I would've said yes. Now, I'm not so sure.

What do you think?

Here's the link to the story:

Can Men And Women Be Friends? : Monkey See : NPR


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## DaKarmaTrain! (May 17, 2012)

Most men are dogs. This is cold, hard reality.

My STBXW had multiple 'male friends'. I believed her when she said she had no attraction to them (for the most part as some were pretty fugly), but I sure as hell didn't believe her when she said the same thing about them. No way those dirtbags weren't checking out her @$$ everytime she bent over, or peering down her shirt to check out the cleavage etc. Or imagining all the different positions he wanted to do to her...cheery fellow ain't I? 

But its true...I didn't trust none of her 'friends'. When she claimed once about how 'they're not attracted to me' I challenged her to bring up having a ONS to them and see how many nano-seconds it took for them to say 'yes'...if they really valued your friendship (and as such valued your marriage) no way would they jeopardize that with sex...course she never took my challenge...wonder why?


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Oh, here we go again.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

lamaga said:


> Oh, here we go again.


Huh?


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Youtube video on this subject

Why Men and Women Cant be friends - YouTube

When asked if men and women can be just friends:

All of the guys interviewed say NO;

All of the women interviewed say YES;

Then, when the women are asked if they think their male "just friends" would have sex with them if they could, all of the women say YES (?);

These are college-aged women, so maybe a little young and naive?

Or maybe it is OK with the women because their male friends are just friends as long as they, the women, decide to keep it that way? The minute the women decide they want to be more than friends, they know the guys are up for it.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Interesting. My issue is the opposite! I have guy friends I wish would be a bit more demonstrative of their affection. But, alas, they are just friends, and so freakin' responsible when it comes to my welfare. Movies, ok, dinner, ok, dancing, ok, art museum shows, ok, kayaking, ok. Handholding at dances, fine. Intimate talk about fantasies and failed courtships, you bet, health issues and emotional issues no problem. ALL of the components of a healthy, trusting relationship, except the sex. I'm not complaining, I know they all find me attractive, because they tell me that, too. Some of them really go too far in being their brother's keeper. A little affection wouldn't hurt, but I guess it's like the concept of water getting into a crack and freezing. It can do a lot of damage, and who would want to ruin a good friendship? Plus, they all know about my guy friend who had the brain hemorrhage and is in rehab now. Even though I'm fine with letting that go and trusting that the future will take care of itself, I appear to be in the minority on that thinking. Maybe my guy friends are right. Who knows, and does it really matter, it's not like I'm going to suddenly want to date someone who isn't a friend. 

So, that brings me to the question: If men and women can't be friends, then how do you meet and get to know the person that you would date and marry? Doesn't the basis of a good intimate relationship build on a solid friendship first? I don't really see dating as different than friendship building. The way things are with my guy friends, if I became intimate with any one of them, the others would still be friends, and I would probably discuss it with them before rather than after, in case they had any concerns about it, including for themselves. 

So how do people 'date' if they don't date friends? Just find some random person that they think might be good marriage material? Or do people date specifically to just find a f*ck partner? I'm confused!


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Count, I was just commenting on the fact that this issue seems to come up repeatedly, and it's one of those things on which never the dueling twains shall meet...

Good question, carry on!


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

lamaga said:


> Count, I was just commenting on the fact that this issue seems to come up repeatedly, and it's one of those things on which never the dueling twains shall meet...
> 
> Good question, carry on!


Thanks for the clarification. I remember this question being asked over twenty years ago when the movie 'When Harry Met Sally' came out. I was much younger then so I didn't pay close attention to the responses.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> I heard an interesting story on NPR's Weekend Edition this morning. It was about whether or not men and women can be just friends, with no sexual attraction.
> 
> *Surprisingly, when asked, the majority of men said no, while the majority of women said yes. * In addition, the show referenced a study where most men in 'platonic' friendships said that they were attracted sexually to to their friend, whereas the majority of women said that they were not.
> 
> ...


The bolded is why I guess we keep seeing this time and again as it pertains to boundaries. I see these extramarital relationships of close opposite sex friends as at the very least cake eating. I can see that I was cake eating now. So I never kissed them. We never met secretly. But I assure you this was an EA. I realized that after withdrawal. Not before. Where this relationship was headed, I don't know, but I am sure it would have ended in me losing my wife. When we just rely on shooting from the hip and trust we are effectively trusting someone who has been snorting cocain to decide to stop snorting cocain. Same brain chemicals folks. We can trust that they will keep on snorting cocain.

I am not sure why some folks feel that the boundary of not having intercourse is good enough. These folks tout trust as being the cornerstone of a marriage as opposed to love and respect. Often these relationships are at some level emotional infidelity. 

People can argue all they wish about this topic but we do love our friends. We do have the brain chemicals working with them. It is also very difficult for us to know when the in love chemicals start to work. The dopamine. We are just so very glad to see our friends. It feels real good. Nothing that feels good about a close friend can be bad ... rght?

For me it was a combination of naivete and arrogance. A requirement of an EA is to think one is immune to it. 

But even if these relationships do not progress to an advanced EA and then a PA they are at some level, if they are close, an emotional bond that is some form of EA. You can have an EA with same sex friends. This is when that relationship becomes obsessive or more accurately when that relationship rivals the primary relationship.

IMO, close opposite sex friendships detract from the primary relationship. Folks will say it enhances it of course because they really enjoy having these relationships. 

I see this often as a misguided feminist agenda with at least some women. I am not blaming feminism by any means. That is why I call it misguided. This is not about equal pay, or right to an education or being an equal partner in a marriage. Some see this as their right though. Their freedom to have many men in their lives. That a man who disagrees is being jealous, insecure and controlling. This is at least some form of polymorous relationship. 

While this does not divide equally over gender lines I agree that more women think this is ok than men. I do think some men are just players in their own mind and know exactly what they are doing. 

We also have gone round and round on how men feel in these relationships. 

All marriages have some component of openess. People have relationships and dealings with members of the opposite sex. Therefore boundaries are critical. The nature of human beings is that we bond with others. So we have to have proper workplace boundaries and so on. 

I have female friends. I am super careful with them. This is powerful stuff. To me if you are hanging out with someone of the opposite sex one on one you are dating. We can disagree but that is fine. Forget about your intent. That just shows a lack of understanding of brain chemistry and human behavior. 

But again I believe this sucks the life out of most marriages. It is not just about cheating. It is about inappropriate behavior that puts a marriage at risk. This all too often leads to unfaithful behavior. Again to me unfaithful behavior is the deal breaker whether penis inserts into vagina or not. It is disrespectful. My comments are about married couples.

Selfishness come to mind here.


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## DaKarmaTrain! (May 17, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> The bolded is why I guess we keep seeing this time and again as it pertains to boundaries. I see these extramarital relationships of close opposite sex friends as at the very least cake eating.
> 
> I am not sure why some folks feel that the boundary of not having intercourse is good enough. These folks tout trust as being the cornerstone of a marriage as opposed to love and respect. Often these relationships are at some level emotional infidelity.
> 
> ...


I had female friends during the course of my marriage but NEVER ONCE went out with them in a one-on-one situation...always met with them in a group setting with other friends. My ex on the other hand was constantly doing the one-on-one thing...one of the big things that destroyed our relationship.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> So how do people 'date' if they don't date friends? Just find some random person that they think might be good marriage material? Or do people date specifically to just find a f*ck partner? I'm confused!


People date people that they have a romantic interest in. The question is whether men and women can be friends without romantic expectations.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Interesting question. As you said, men tend to develop a sexual attraction while women develop an emotional attraction. I think the only "safe" opposite sex friendship is a pre-pubescent one.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

What is interesting is that many who state they believe it's possible would become uncomfortable if their spouse were to suddenly have a small group of active friends of the opposite sex. You see it's like fantasies, they are great while they stay in the mind but not so when they become reality.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> People date people that they have a romantic interest in. The question is whether men and women can be friends without romantic expectations.


But but but. I had a buddy. I was friends with buddy. Had no intention of ever falling for this buddy. Sometimes he was irritating, and sometimes he could be rude! About 5 months into friendship, I realized I had fallen for buddy. I was shocked. He wasn't even my type. I had no romantic interest in him at all, up to that point of realization.

The same thing happened to him. He was not interested in a relationship. Especially with someone who had kids. So being a buddy with me was safe for him. Until he realized he fell for me. 

We stayed remote friends, that is did not see each other except in public for several months because before either of us told each other how we felt, my husband (I'd moved out and was going to file for a divorce because he'd cheated and lied and been abusive) wanted another chance and I felt obligated to give it to him, and talked to my buddy about this (but not in the context of our relationship, just on the sanity of doing it...and decided it was within the scope of my beliefs of marriage, to hedge on believing that my H was sincere. He was not, and there was no if's and's or but's about that after 4 months of the second chance.) 

I stayed remote, out of touch for another month after that. As soon as I told my friend I'd filed for divorce, he asked me out, I thought we were just going out socially as I knew him to be a social dater, so ignored any attention he was giving to me, and took it to be buddy like behavior... But then after a few weeks when he seemed to be acting less like a buddy I decided to tell him what had happened the previous summer when I was hanging out with him...that I realized I'd fallen for him. He admitted the same thing. 

I know he was chasing around other women the entire time I was buddies with him, he definitely thought of me as off limits and acted accordingly. He did not want a relationship, he wanted to play the field. That didn't go so well with him. 

It's okay, I saved his life. So there was some kind of larger reason for how that played out. If I had not told him how I felt, he would not have come to my apartment rather than going home when he felt like cr*p after being with his family setting up a yard sale for his mother's estate. He would have gone home, probably, or stayed over in a motel another night, and he would most definitely be dead.

So, here's to buddies who become lovers. 
And then get carted away by their nutso guardian-sister.
A relationship is what it is. 
I would be hard-pressed to categorize my relationship with my friend. It has no physical component any longer, but it definitely has a spiritually bonded one.


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## Martin12 (Apr 27, 2012)

Sure, in the following cases:

Gay men/straight women
Lesbians/straight men (these can be fun, I've had some)
Unattractive women/men
Very wide age gap (30+ years) - mentoring, etc.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

How very offensive, Martin -- if your postulate is that men and women cannot be friends because of overwhelming sexual urges (which, by the way, I don't agree with, but let's go with it for now) -- if you are postulating that, then are you seriously saying that unattractive women and men do not have those sexual urges? That because you find them "ugly", they are somehow exempt from all the qualities, good and bad, that make us human?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Before I had my EAs, I was in the camp that men and women could absolutely be friends with no problem whatsoever. My husband was in that same camp before his. But, after going thru what we have, we now don't say that with absolute certainty. Do I have male friends? Yes. Does he have female friends? Yes. But there is a qualification to that. We are both very much aware of each others communication with opposite sex friends. I guard myself from getting close to any male friends. And he does the same regarding females. If I am uncertain of behaviors, I defer to my husband, and he does the same with me. One mutual male friend, I apologized to him for not seeming as friendly. I told him that at least some of the things his ex-wife told him were likely true, tho she liked to embellish stories...the main point was essentially true. And, I told him I am keeping my distance for that reason. He completely understood, and most correspondence is thru my husband instead.

I think, as a general rule, MAYBE men and women can be friends. But I truly believe, based on my experiences, that they can't be CLOSE friends. Not without some romantic thoughts creeping in. BUt it really is a fine line between friendship and romantic interest. And, sometimes, those lines end up blurred... which is why this really is a tough question to answer.

So, for my husband and myself... no, men and women cannot be friends, or at least close friends, without romantic notions entering into the equation.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Martin12 said:


> Sure, in the following cases:
> 
> Gay men/straight women
> Lesbians/straight men (these can be fun, I've had some)
> ...


Martin, I agree with the first two. However, I know some guys that will screw ANY woman if given the opportunity.

Also, I think you might want to expand that age gap to around 50, and even then I wouldn't be so sure.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

I have a few female friends. I am just friends with most of them.
However, a few of them are attractive. I must confess that I remain careful with my thoughts.

I think, honestly, that men and women could be just friends. I am also aware that most men are quick flesh eaters!


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## Fvstringpicker (Mar 11, 2012)

On average probably not. I got/had woman friends I don't especially want to have sex with, some I would have if given the chance and some I wouldn't. But its in nature that heterosexual males and female want to touch one another. 




DaKarmaTrain! said:


> Most men are dogs. This is cold, hard reality.


Probably so. But what do you call the women that participate. We don't use a love potion you know.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Martin12 said:


> Sure, in the following cases:
> 
> Gay men/straight women
> Lesbians/straight men (these can be fun, I've had some)
> ...


The problem with the last two is this:
1. A person who is unattractive TO YOU may, in fact, be attractive to someone else. 
2. The emotional bond between two people is a remarkable thing. One may consider someone physically unattractive, but still become sexually attracted because of an emotional bond.

Then the last on your list... students have notoriously fallen for teachers over the years. It isn't unheard of for one to fall for his or her mentor, and vice versa.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Fvstringpicker said:


> Probably so. But what do you call the women that participate. _We don't use a love potion you know_.


Pheremones


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

I think opposite sex friends is possible, and both my W and I have them. 

Yes, however, it is true, some of my female friends are pretty good looking. And yes, I'm checking them out, as someone stated, looking at her azz or cleavage. Sorry, I'm a guy, I do that. But I also know these friends well enough to know we'd not make a great match, and while there is still an appreciation for a good looking woman, it stops there. And my W is a seemingly perfect match for me. So, I don't "go out for burgers when I've got steak at home".

Where this whole "friends" thing becomes bs and starts crossing boundaries is when there is more contact, or the content of the contact with the "friends" of the opposite sex is more than what you give your best same sex friends. My female friends are in on the same conversations as my guy friends. I do not call or text them a bit more or in any different manner than I do my guy friends. I will go out to lunch or drinks solo with them on a rare occassion, just as I do my guy friends. We have a group, and we all hang out together.

I text, contact, email my best guy friends possibly once every few days, or chat when they drop by the office. My W chats with her friends about the same frequency, maybe a little more. When that frequency increases with a friend of the opposite sex to any significant degree, it is time to take a huge step back. They're becoming no longer "just friends". Friends of the opposite sex can be dangerous if you are not able to pull your head out of the clouds and realize when a single person starts working their way into your consciousness more than your best same sex friends. You're on the path to an EA when that starts, and that leads to.....


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

The only thing one needs to do - to see how marital boundaries can be easily broken - is to read past stories of FWS here to understand the dynamics that come into play when an innocent friendship eventually becomes an affair. Quite a few wives, in relatively good marriages, have come here dumbfounded by how they went from texting a male friend "How do you like your new job?" to "I can't wait to be with you again" in only a matter of weeks.

Lastly, the idea that one can become friends with ex-lovers is a dangerous one that we have seen here play out time and again with disastrous results.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> For me it was a combination of naivete and arrogance. A requirement of an EA is to think one is immune to it.
> 
> But even if these relationships do not progress to an advanced EA and then a PA they are at some level if they are close an emotional bond that is some form of EA. You can have an EA with same sex friends. This is when that relationship becomes obsessive or actually when that relationship rivals the primary relationship.
> 
> ...


Before I came here, I was on a majority female board relationship board. there were several women who defended having their "male friendships" and they were not going to let anyone take them away. 

One woman on this board finally admitted a few months later that she had remained friends with a guy from law school and went into practice together. Between her marriages and while he was married, they had sex at least once. When the wife found about this a few years later, the husband and this woman friend of his had to liquidate the law practice. She did say that she was not proud of her story. But of course, this was someone who vilified me earlier for being insecure and jealous.

I do think when women defend this, they are thinking about themselves and how they would like to approach men even married men directly and not worry about the wife. 

And I did notice when I went on a couple of double dates with a female friend, her husband and my date at the time (a few years ago), I could see her manoeuvring the seating arrangements at theatres -- she never wanted me to sit next to her husband or even across from him if we went out to dinner; So I never wanted her to sit next to my bf. 

when I went out of town for a couple of weeks, she had nerve to e-mail me to ask for my bf's number to invite him over for dinner. What????? If your husband can't be bothered getting other men's number, I'm not going to make it easy for you.

You can be sure when I remarry, my eye will be on every woman who enters my and my husband's life.


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## Martin12 (Apr 27, 2012)

lamaga said:


> How very offensive, Martin -- if your postulate is that men and women cannot be friends because of overwhelming sexual urges (which, by the way, I don't agree with, but let's go with it for now) -- if you are postulating that, then are you seriously saying that unattractive women and men do not have those sexual urges? That because you find them "ugly", they are somehow exempt from all the qualities, good and bad, that make us human?


No, they are less likely to be the object or relentless male desire.

Also, when I say "unattractive" I am applying a subjective and particular standard: that of the male friend. Only when the female is sexually unattractive to the male friend is friendship possible without transition to attempts at sex.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Martin12 said:


> No, they are less likely to be the object or relentless male desire.


the problem here though is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You may think someone is unattractive but your partner may not. And as we grow older, we rely more on personality to gauge one's attractiveness as well.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

In my opinion no. When I had female acquaintances I wanted to bang every one of them that weren't ugly, even if I made no moves.

(projecting, I know)


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## jh52 (Apr 29, 2012)

Doesn't it all come down to each one of us and the morals we live life ? What I am trying to say that it takes 2 willing people to have a ONS or an affair.

If you are either a man or a woman -- there maybe a moment where you have to make that decision. If you say NO -- then you will never have a problem.

Once again, it comes down to each one of us being accoutable for his or her actions.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

jh52 said:


> *Doesn't it all come down to each one of us and the morals we live life ?* What I am trying to say that it takes 2 willing people to have a ONS or an affair.
> 
> If you are either a man or a woman -- there maybe a moment where you have to make that decision. If you say NO -- then you will never have a problem.
> 
> ...


Yup! Really, that IS all it comes down to. You would hope that your life partner would agree with you. Ideally, you come to this agreement before marriage/choosing to spend your lives together. Over time, the decision may change, based on experiences. Ultimately, tho, as you said... each of us is accountable for our own feelings and actions.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> People date people that they have a romantic interest in. The question is whether men and women can be friends without romantic expectations.


\

Absolutely. Never had a problem with having many female friends. No sexual attraction whatsoever.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I say no.

But being friendless I may be a little bias.

I could never get past the physical features of being friends with the oppisite sex.

I think if I had a oppisite sex friend her perfume would get in the way of the gun powder smell at the shooting range.
I think her screams and jumping up and down would get in the way of cheering for our Chargers.
I think watching her open her mouth wide to slug down a beer would get in the way of the working on the projects in the shop.
I think watching her put her mouth on the cigar would get in the way of the poker game.

Agian thats just how I'm wired!!!!


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

No. But it's not any of our fault. Its nature driving us under the covers. The opposite sexes are driven to hookup and make new kids. We can have all the culture and civilization we want, but inside there will always be biology pushing them to hookup and share genes.

Sure they can decide not to act on that drive, but in a society filled with shows, books, people all pressuring us to be happy regardless of the cost to others, it takes a determined mind to reject such drives and not let you act on them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

But we haven't looked at this from the other side........A lot of women like being able to say that they have male friends. they like knowing that when they go out they can get a free meal or at least a free drink.

My sister introduced me to a new best friend of hers, the wife of a dentist. I asked whether she had any suitable men to introduce her to. My sister said she had already asked and she said no. I told my sister to be careful because she appeared to me to be the type of woman who would try as much as possible to keep women away from "her" male friends.

I have noticed over the years how much men will "outsource" their social lives to women. So then they become beholden to those women. God forbid if they put a foot wrong. Their female friend might rip them for the guest list.

I really think that my bf went through that for a couple of months. Some activities that are yearly milestones like St. Patrick's Day, I really think my bf was pissed that his "female friend" didn't invite him after he and I started dating given how pissy he behaved towards me that weekend last year (2011). When I was able to see this woman's FB wall, I could see a whole album form St Pat's 2010 which included a fair few photos of my bf arm in arm with her. Mind you, we had met two months after that but it does put into question that she was "just a friend.". But it was clear that that was something he enjoyed doing and but, still, didn't bother organising his own St. Pat's day revelry. 

Oh you men,maybe if you took control of social life, there would be fewer problems for TAM to examine.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

Will_Kane said:


> Youtube video on this subject
> 
> Why Men and Women Cant be friends - YouTube
> 
> ...


I'm sure this is true. Most women would say yes. Female infidelity in American marriages is increasing at exponential rates every year.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> Interesting. My issue is the opposite! I have guy friends I wish would be a bit more demonstrative of their affection. But, alas, they are just friends, and so freakin' responsible when it comes to my welfare. Movies, ok, dinner, ok, dancing, ok, art museum shows, ok, kayaking, ok. Handholding at dances, fine. Intimate talk about fantasies and failed courtships, you bet, health issues and emotional issues no problem. ALL of the components of a healthy, trusting relationship, except the sex. I'm not complaining, I know they all find me attractive, because they tell me that, too. Some of them really go too far in being their brother's keeper. A little affection wouldn't hurt, but I guess it's like the concept of water getting into a crack and freezing. It can do a lot of damage, and who would want to ruin a good friendship? Plus, they all know about my guy friend who had the brain hemorrhage and is in rehab now. Even though I'm fine with letting that go and trusting that the future will take care of itself, I appear to be in the minority on that thinking. Maybe my guy friends are right. Who knows, and does it really matter, it's not like I'm going to suddenly want to date someone who isn't a friend.
> 
> So, that brings me to the question: If men and women can't be friends, then how do you meet and get to know the person that you would date and marry? Doesn't the basis of a good intimate relationship build on a solid friendship first? I don't really see dating as different than friendship building. The way things are with my guy friends, if I became intimate with any one of them, the others would still be friends, and I would probably discuss it with them before rather than after, in case they had any concerns about it, including for themselves.
> 
> So how do people 'date' if they don't date friends? Just find some random person that they think might be good marriage material? Or do people date specifically to just find a f*ck partner? I'm confused!


In your case you are not married. Yes indeed single people need to have opposite sex friends. My comments were all related to a marriage. I am just against dating other people after marriage.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

lamaga said:


> Count, I was just commenting on the fact that this issue seems to come up repeatedly, and it's one of those things on which never the dueling twains shall meet...
> 
> Good question, carry on!


Agreed but it is one of the most important issues facing marriages today.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I have had several female friends who I did not find sexually attractive at all, and some female friends who I find incredibly attractive, but I am not going to pursue that attraction at all.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Why is it when folks have oppisite sex friends they alway meet at the bars,clubs and parties, How come oppisite sex friends don't go to tea parties and clothes shopping? How come you never hear about the oppisite sex friend coming over to help with a break job or a oil change?
Its always about opisite sex friends going out after work for coffee or a drink, its never fun stuff like hunting or working on a hobby car!

Some one please show me the light and correct my way of thinking.

Are there married guys out there that have female friend that hang out with them while they skin a deer at the crack of dawn or go to car shows?

Are there married wifes that have guy friend that go to hair salons with and enjoy cloths shopping in the afternoon?

I guess there are opisite sex friends that work out together, just like there are friends that drink together, but the sexual tension has to be pretty high in even those cases.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Martin, I agree with the first two. However, I know some guys that will screw ANY woman if given the opportunity.
> 
> Also, I think you might want to expand that age gap to around 50, and even then I wouldn't be so sure.


I had a running mate in the Navy who specialized in women who were less than models. He said they were the most grateful for his attentions. He had great sex with them.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> I have had several female friends who I did not find sexually attractive at all, and some female friends who I find incredibly attractive, *but I am not going to pursue that attraction at all*.


tghat's great, but when I look back on my history and opposite se friendships......

1. with my current bf, I know that she encouraged him to drop me so that they could date again. She used info that he gave her about us, mentioning that since we had not had sex again, I must not be interested in the relationship.

2. When I was married the first time, my exH encouraged me to contact a former colleague of his. I do believe that that was a sincere move on his part to help me make friends since I had just arrived in my husband's country. But at some point, this former colleague of my husband, told me that she was not interested in planning anything unless my husband was included.

Maybe if I think longer, I can think of other examples. But this illustrates a point at which a spouse has to accept that the "friend" has no intention of negotiating or compromising. And that it's not even worth trying to work with that person.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> I had a running mate in the Navy who specialized in women who were less than models. He said they were the most grateful for his attentions. He had great sex with them.


Kinda like that old Jimmy Soul record that went 'if you want to be happy the rest of your life, marry an ugly woman.'

[I don't mean to offend women who don't measure up to society's standard of beauty.]


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

jh52 said:


> *Doesn't it all come down to each one of us and the morals we live life ?* What I am trying to say that it takes 2 willing people to have a ONS or an affair.
> 
> If you are either a man or a woman -- there maybe a moment where you have to make that decision. If you say NO -- then you will never have a problem.
> 
> ...


No it is not about morals as far as a boundary is concerned if that is the only boundary. It does not take a person willing to cheat to fall into an EA. This is less about someone who intends to cheat and more about the emotional feelings. People will justify their affairs so like it or not morals / characters are not the boundaries you think they are BY THEMSELVES. A person with morals and character will not put themselves in risky situations however. They surely will not disrespect their partner by going against their wishes.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> People date people that they have a romantic interest in. The question is whether men and women can be friends without *romantic expectations*.


I think that it's "romantic desires' as well.

Men often will befriend a woman who they have desire for but no expectation of it ever going all the way. Of course there is always the smallest possibility that one day she might be vulnerable enough....


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

the guy said:


> Why is it when folks have oppisite sex friends they alway meet at the bars,clubs and parties, How come oppisite sex friends don't go to tea parties and clothes shopping? How come you never hear about the oppisite sex friend coming over to help with a break job or a oil change?
> Its always about opisite sex friends going out after work for coffee or a drink, its never fun stuff like hunting or working on a hobby car!


Actually, that's _*exactly *_what happens with my female friends! Often on my wife's instructions! "Why don't you go help so-and-so do such-and-such?" 

Shopping trips? Yep. Done that! ("No, I don't think your boy friend would like that!" when asked for help selecting a gift.)


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> *But we haven't looked at this from the other side........A lot of women like being able to say that they have male friends. they like knowing that when they go out they can get a free meal or at least a free drink.*
> 
> My sister introduced me to a new best friend of hers, the wife of a dentist. I asked whether she had any suitable men to introduce her to. My sister said she had already asked and she said no. I told my sister to be careful because she appeared to me to be the type of woman who would try as much as possible to keep women away from "her" male friends.
> 
> ...


OMG this is hilarious!! Most women these days make their own money and do not need men to buy them things. I hope you are talking about single women. Married women should not be selling their time to men for a drink. LOL. They used to be called by-me-drinkie-girls. Hey sailor! LOL.

My wife will do that from time to time to me. Come up behind me and say "hey sailor".

The below though is a very positive comment :



> Oh you men,maybe if you took control of social life, there would be fewer problems for TAM to examine.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I think that it's "romantic desires' as well.
> 
> Men often will befriend a woman who they have desire for but no expectation of it ever going all the way. Of course there is always the smallest possibility that one day she might be vulnerable enough....


Sometimes that 'vulnerable enough' thing has to be buried way, way deep. Because I do not think I could sleep again, if I did something like that...


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> I think that it's "romantic desires' as well.
> 
> Men often will befriend a woman who they have desire for but no expectation of it ever going all the way. Of course there is always the smallest possibility that one day she might be vulnerable enough....


Typically they won't. However at the first hint of a problem in the primary relationship they are there to uummm .... fill the gap.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> Sometimes that 'vulnerable enough' thing has to be buried way, way deep. Because I do not think I could sleep again, if I did something like that...


You're better than most.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

the guy said:


> Why is it when folks have oppisite sex friends they alway meet at the bars,clubs and parties, How come oppisite sex friends don't go to tea parties and clothes shopping? How come you never hear about the oppisite sex friend coming over to help with a break job or a oil change?
> Its always about opisite sex friends going out after work for coffee or a drink, its never fun stuff like hunting or working on a hobby car!
> 
> Some one please show me the light and correct my way of thinking.
> ...


I know two women who would be up at the crack of dawn, hunting...and then help skin a deer, etc. One is my aunt...well, she used to do that kind of thing. Bit tougher now that she's older and has various health problems preventing it. But she LOVED hunting. Another girl friend of mine loves hunting, mudding, you name it. She really is a country girl, thru and thru lol.

As for working on cars...there are some. I'm not into that, personally. But I can easily sit thru a 500 mile race on TV (never been in person lol). Can thank my hubby for that! And I enjoy MMA. Again, hubby was instigator lol. But I couldn't bring myself to enjoy these activities without him. Wouldn't feel right to me.

Ad for men who shop and go to hair salons... at the risk of making stereotypes... usually, those men are gay.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

WhiteMousse said:


> I'm sure this is true. Most women would say yes. Female infidelity in American marriages is increasing at exponential rates every year.


I'm not sure it's true that female infidelity is increasing at exponential rates.

Female infidelity is at a rate slightly below that of male infidelity. It will probably stay there are become closer to equal.

Infidenlity itself is not increasing all that much, even with our looser social norms today. It happens in about 40% of marriages. It's been that way for a long time.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

@MattMatt, I get were your coming from but my point is in the CWI forum it seems some case of infedlity occure when the apposite sex friend are meeting after work or at the bar when the spouse stays at home watching the kids. 

My replies may have seemed generalized but the point was this, so called friend ship really never mean nothing more then a guy and a girl hanging out for drink at night.

In that case you mention, sure there is the exception and I now see your way of thinking. 

Endless theres a gunshop or a hobby shop at the mall, then count me out of any kind of shopping with an oppisite sex friend....if I had any


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

@M-75, I can see gays guys going shopping with a chick. but like MattMatt said he can help out and shop with an oppisite sex friend. But picking out a present for her BF is one thing, going to Vitory Secrets to pick out bras, now that would be challenging, especially for his W.

Sure chicks dig hunting but would your uncle let your aunt spend the week end with some young hunting guide with out being the least concerned.

Again my approach here is so often oppisite sex friends seem to only exsist at the bar, clubs and after work.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> I have had several female friends who I did not find sexually attractive at all, and some female friends who I find incredibly attractive, but I am not going to pursue that attraction at all.


This is the point... most men can only truely be friends with a female he is not attracted to. I have noticed that few men have female friends that they are not attracted to.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

the guy said:


> @M-75, I can see gays guys going shopping with a chick. but like MattMatt said he can help out and shop with an oppisite sex friend. But picking out a present for her BF is one thing, going to Vitory Secrets to pick out bras, now that would be challenging, especially for his W.
> 
> Sure chicks dig hunting but would your uncle let your aunt spend the week end with some young hunting guide with out being the least concerned.
> 
> Again my approach here is so often oppisite sex friends seem to only exsist at the bar, clubs and after work.


I know what you mean. As far as my uncle and aunt..they always did it as a family... his side, not ours. So it was a bunch of them at a hunting camp for a week or weekend. But yea, I know what you are saying.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> This is the point... most men can only truely be friends with a female he is not attracted to. I have noticed that few men have female friends that they are not attracted to.


Actually, I find something attractive about all my female friends. Even those who are not 'pretty' for want of a better word.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

WhiteMousse said:


> You're better than most.


Well, I try to be the person my mother thought she was bringing up.

Although what she would say if she knew the real story of my relationships since age 21, God knows!


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> I know two women who would be up at the crack of dawn, hunting...and then help skin a deer, etc. One is my aunt...well, she used to do that kind of thing. Bit tougher now that she's older and has various health problems preventing it. But she LOVED hunting. Another girl friend of mine loves hunting, mudding, you name it. She really is a country girl, thru and thru lol.
> 
> As for working on cars...there are some. I'm not into that, personally. But I can easily sit thru a 500 mile race on TV (never been in person lol). Can thank my hubby for that! And I enjoy MMA. Again, hubby was instigator lol. But I couldn't bring myself to enjoy these activities without him. Wouldn't feel right to me.
> 
> Ad for men who shop and go to hair salons... at the risk of making stereotypes... usually, those men are gay.


I remember going to the auto store with my wife sometime back. She knew we needed the plugs for the Cleveland heads. The guy argued with her that she was mistaken. She explained that that year indeed the 400 ci had the Cleveland heads for that vehicle. He was dumb founded. I loved it.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> I'm not sure it's true that female infidelity is increasing at exponential rates.
> 
> Female infidelity is at a rate slightly below that of male infidelity. It will probably stay there are become closer to equal.
> 
> Infidenlity itself is not increasing all that much, even with our looser social norms today. It happens in about 40% of marriages. It's been that way for a long time.


I agree. I wonder what is being measured here. If they are measuring PAs that is only part of what is going on. I suspect that in today's society there are a good number of EAs and borderline EAs going on just due to technilogy and the workplace evening out.

I think that since women are less dependent on their husbands they may be more likely to take the stan that they will not give up their male relationships. But I imagine this is now pretty balanced but I would not be shocked if thiat changed.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> Actually, I find something attractive about all my female friends. Even those who are not 'pretty' for want of a better word.


I think we can be attracted to a woman for being a woman. Her femininity. After all we are wired to be attracted to them on many levels.

I suggest that if you are single and a married woman was having problems with her husband you just might let her stay at your house for while to support her. I am not saying you would be intending to have sex with her, but you would not turn her away.

Plus if she came onto you just how much fighting off would you do?
How would you handle that old get me a towel ... ooops ... so what do you think ploy?

Matt, I would suggest to you that you likely have pure compassion and are a really good person. Guess what? You may be more vulnerable than many others because of your compassion.

I am this way.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

WhiteMousse said:


> You're better than most.


But no less dangerous.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> But no less dangerous.


I am less dangerous. I have been fixed.

Oh. Sorry, that wasn't what you meant, was it?

Actually, before I met my wife I knew a woman who I was crazy about, but she was married.

We attended a conference together and -due to a combination of circumstances that are too tedious to relate- we had to share a bed. It wasn't even a particularly big bed.

I did nothing. Why? Because she trusted me.

Now, if she had come on to me? Ah. That I don't know. I think the outcome could have been different, as I am only human, after all...


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> I am less dangerous. I have been fixed.
> 
> Oh. Sorry, that wasn't what you meant, was it?
> 
> ...


I understand. I really do. Folks like us can fall the hardest is all I am saying.

But not all men are like this. All sorts of shades of gray. Circumstances can come into play that mess with our heads.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> I understand. I really do. Folks like us can fall the hardest is all I am saying.
> 
> But not all men are like this. All sorts of shades of gray. Circumstances can come into play that mess with our heads.


Yes. Like when I actually DID start to have an affair with a married woman? I think I was the person most shocked by this...

Incidentally, we are still together 23 years later.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Can men and women be friends in general? Sure.

Can they be friends if one of them is married and the other one is not? No f*cking way in my opinion.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> Can men and women be friends in general? Sure.
> 
> Can they be friends if one of them is married and the other one is not? No f*cking way in my opinion.


:iagree:

I'm starting to think that they can't be friends even if they're both married.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I'm starting to think that they can't be friends even if they're both married.


surely you jest.

Infatuation is a powerful emotion, and a very biological one that doesn't listen to reason. I imagine it's part of the lizard brain in all of us, the one that can't read the writing on a marriage certificate.


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## Vanton68 (Feb 5, 2012)

I think they can ONLY if there is ZERO sexual attraction for BOTH the man and woman. Otherwise you are playing with fire.


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

yes anyone who says they cannot is a naive individual the fact that most men believe such a silly thing shows more on the lack of intelligence for males. 

Such a shame my own sex by and large has such a distorted view on relationships


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

If their is ever an attraction than their exists potential for a future relationship to ensue. If you are married its best to not have opposite sex friends as it will just likely cause problems. Furthermore long term friendships between opposite sexes tend to usually involve attraction on both sides. Both individuals typically have an attraction to the other and tension will build to the point were eventually they must act on their feelings. 

I would say most of the time that when a male and a female are really really close as in friends 9/10 there exists attraction between the two. They both want each other but at different times or are unable to have something at that moment or are afraid to make the move. However overtime even years later if they remain in contact or on friendly terms and they reconnect and start to get close they will both get physical. That is why so many people who date or marry eventually have often been friends before hand and that is why so many affairs also occur with often opposite sex friends who you have known for years.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

NO! Nuff Said.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

iheartlife said:


> surely you jest.
> 
> Infatuation is a powerful emotion, and a very biological one that doesn't listen to reason. I imagine it's *part of the lizard brain in all of us*, the one that can't read the writing on a marriage certificate.


Perhaps. But while affairs are certainly an abberation from what most of us believe to be the most fullfiling path, it is these same base feelings which do draw us together period. At least to start.

Yes affairs are a fantasy and are not born of the trials, tribulations, triumphs and exhilerations that we face together in our married lives but I still find what brings men and women together as a wonderful thing none the less.

What we do with this is on us.

“Experience is not what happens to you; it's what you do with what happens to you.” —Aldous Huxley

Life and marriage is what we make of it. We have choice. The quality of our choices defines us. 

All I am saying is that I am glad for the differences of men and women as exasperating as it is for us all. When it is right we complement each other and I think this is a worhwhile pursuit. The base instincts just ensure we get together to begin with. The rest is surely on us.

Besides ... all sunshine makes a desert.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> OMG this is hilarious!! *Most women these days make their own money and do not need men to buy them things. I hope you are talking about single women. Married women should not be selling their time to men for a drink.* LOL. They used to be called by-me-drinkie-girls. Hey sailor! LOL.


Well, my bf's "just a friend" certainly benefited from my bf's propensity to close a bar tab for her at least twice while he was chasing her. (I can see it on CC statements, he openly admitted to one and the other one is at a sports bar where the drinks aren't more GBP5, so a bar tab of GBP 127 at that rate, let's hope it did include a lot of people.)

About 6 weeks later, I can see that my bf backed out of watching another game at the pub with her (to go out with me) and oh, the vitriol that she spewed in those private messages. this was when she was firmly fitted with her boyfriend so I assume he would have been there.

Fast forward 7 months, and despite her talking about doing something special for her 30th b-day on her FB wall....often.... my bf received a private message at 1pm that Saturday from her bf letting him know that "he was more than welcome" to join them.

At 11pm that evening, just the hour that pubs close in London, my bf received a text message from her...and I quote "Why didn't you come?"

Do you see what I saw there?


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

some people can handle poisonous snakes everyday of their lives and never get bitten... 

Although the odds are heavily against it, I imagine its possible to have a longterm friendship with someone of the opposite sex. 

but... like the snake handlers, if you hope not to be bitten you better have rediculous precautions in place and be clearly aware of the danger... 

Even then, the more you handle them... and regardless of how careful you are... chances are, your getting bitten eventually.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

just adding to this idea of (some) women who like keeping a harem of eunuchs around.......

think about it, if my bf had not been dating me, he would have gone running to that b-day activity. this is why a lot of women try to make it difficult for male "freinds" to date other women.

If you read other relationship boards, you will will find from time to time, guys admitting that the woman that they was a friend was preventing them from having a gf. 

quite often, the guy defends their "friend" claiming that the other women are just jealous and insecure.....until they figure it out.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> just adding to this idea of (some) women who like keeping a harem of eunuchs around.......
> 
> think about it, if my bf had not been dating me, he would have gone running to that b-day activity. this is why a lot of women try to make it difficult for male "freinds" to date other women.
> 
> ...


I think they are called orbiters. A harum of eunuchs more accurate.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Vanton68 said:


> I think they can ONLY if there is ZERO sexual attraction for BOTH the man and woman. Otherwise you are playing with fire.


Here's the problem, though, and I'm not trying to be disagreeable or anything. When a man and a woman are married, they have volunteered to give 100% of their affection and loyalty only to their spouse...and to protect their spouse from their own weaknesses. So along comes a gent and the lady is not attracted to him in the least. He's not physically her cup of tea AT ALL. 

BUT...they work together, and he spends lots of time trying to make her job a little easier. She likes that and he gets a little bonus pointage. He also understands her frustrations and woes, and takes the time to listen to them. She likes that and he get a little more bonus pointage. She makes a mistake at work and he covers for her and takes the heat--more bonus points. He treats her like she's smart and seems to enjoy working with her--bonus points! 

Pretty soon, she actually LIKES HIM, starts to think about him, looks forward to when she can be with him....and who cares if he's not physically her type? She can learn to like his mutton chops and slight beer belly  My point is that they started off with ZERO ATTRACTION but because she spent so much time with him, and he had enough in common with her--eventually some slipping down the slope had started and what didn't attract her before is suddenly looking like BACON (aka: Meat Candy). 

I can't say that men and women can never work together, etc. Sometimes some degree of interaction is required! But I can say that what is viewed as "attractive" can easily change, and once a person is married there is a duty to your spouse to stay the heck away from anyone of the opposite sex and make 100% of affection and loyalty is right where it belongs: at home!


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Affaircare said:


> Here's the problem, though, and I'm not trying to be disagreeable or anything. When a man and a woman are married, they have volunteered to give 100% of their affection and loyalty only to their spouse...and to protect their spouse from their own weaknesses. So along comes a gent and the lady is not attracted to him in the least. He's not physically her cup of tea AT ALL.
> 
> BUT...they work together, and he spends lots of time trying to make her job a little easier. She likes that and he gets a little bonus pointage. He also understands her frustrations and woes, and takes the time to listen to them. She likes that and he get a little more bonus pointage. She makes a mistake at work and he covers for her and takes the heat--more bonus points. He treats her like she's smart and seems to enjoy working with her--bonus points!
> 
> ...


This is what I have found. Attraction grows. When people bond they become attracted.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

I think an man and a woman can be acquaintances. Caring for each other while not having anything invested in each other. 
I have lots of acquaintances that are women. 
I don't call them, We joke around at work, we know each other but I don't know their day 2 day. I have one womans phone number other than my wife's. That is a coworker whom I have yet to talk to on the phone and I have had her number over eight months now. 

Most men do not approach women they are not attracted to. Therefore ,if a man is friends with a woman, there is going to be some sort of attraction.
I caught my wife's EA in it's infancy and nipped it in the bud. I could see where this guy started calling my wife a few times a week. Then it progressed to multiple times per week, and then per day. They no longer communicate now but my wife was getting inundated by this guy who she trusted. 
I know I would not want my wife being in the same kind of friend ship I have with my friends. Only because I love my guy friends, like brothers, I know my friends inside and out. I know there fears, frustrations, hopes and dreams. But I am not attracted sexually to men so we truly are like brothers and there is nowhere else deeper that our relationship can go. 
A married woman having that kind of friend ship with a man ,outside of marriage or vice versa, would always have the ability to go further. 
Marriage is already difficult enough with finances, kids, scheduling, etc. etc. Why add a stick of dynamite to it?


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## river rat (Jan 20, 2012)

Interesting and very controversial. I have always had friends who are women. I'll admit that sometimes I have felt sexual attraction to them. You can't change your biology, but you can change your behavior. It's about boundaries, folks. What badbane describes above as "acquaintances" is actually a form of friendship with defined boundaries. I have a number of such friends. I don't go drinking w/ them. I generally have my wife along when I am w/ them. I befriend their spouses. My best friend also happens to be my partner in business. I consider her to be family. I'd do anything for her. And interestingly, I'm not at all sexually attracted to her. So, yes, it's possible.


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## Vanton68 (Feb 5, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> Here's the problem, though, and I'm not trying to be disagreeable or anything. When a man and a woman are married, they have volunteered to give 100% of their affection and loyalty only to their spouse...and to protect their spouse from their own weaknesses. So along comes a gent and the lady is not attracted to him in the least. He's not physically her cup of tea AT ALL.
> 
> BUT...they work together, and he spends lots of time trying to make her job a little easier. She likes that and he gets a little bonus pointage. He also understands her frustrations and woes, and takes the time to listen to them. She likes that and he get a little more bonus pointage. She makes a mistake at work and he covers for her and takes the heat--more bonus points. He treats her like she's smart and seems to enjoy working with her--bonus points!
> 
> ...


I see your point, but I was/am in that type of relationship with a girl friend. She is not sexually attracted to guys with muscles (thinks veins are disgusting), or men who are assertive; but we are still close friends. She is definitely not my type physically. I guess I personally don't have the capacity to think of her in a sexual way, or become physically aroused by a woman who is not 'my type' (any color, height, whatever, but must be physically thin or hardbody). Personally I could not grow to love her as anything but a friend. But many men are like the opportunistic bullshark, and take whatever, whenever.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Depends on the people, I think, and whether or not they can be trusted to behave honorably or with integrity. Depends also on the context and intimacy level of the friendship and whether or not there is attraction or ego stroking or ulterior motive present. Depends also on the distribution of respect among the group. 

I think that no friendships should take priority over the spouse and that opposite gender friendships should be placed on a back burner during times when the spouses are vulnerable or facing marital conflict.


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## librarydragon (Aug 20, 2011)

No. Unequivocally, no. Couple friends with both, yes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Surprisingly, when asked, the majority of men said no, while the majority of women said yes. In addition, the show referenced a study where most men in 'platonic' friendships said that they were attracted sexually to to their friend, whereas the majority of women said that they were not.


This is not a surprise to me. The hard truth that most men never understand is that while *most men are attracted to most women, most women are not attracted to most men.* The women are only truly attracted to the top of the pyramid. Eventually, they settle because they want to marry. This seems to be happening less and less in our society, thus the rise of the "soft harem."


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

I agree with Affair care.

NO.


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## Looking to heal (Jun 15, 2011)

Are there examples of men and women in relationships with opposite sex friends who do not have sex or want to have sex ?

Pretty sure there are. So they answer to the question can men and women be friends is clearly yes.

Does a policy of a men and a women in a relationship allowing each other to have opposite sex friends (without restrictions) increase the risk of infidelity ? The answer is clearly yes.

I think the key is the boundaries a couple sets and agrees to.

There seems to be a common view that men will stick their ****s in anything and our dogs which is sometimes the case but I do not generally think this describes men in society today.

Women can also be like this too.

The way men and women are described here and the hypothesis that its all aboux sex is fairly old fashioned and simplistic in my view.

Comes down to boundaries which are appropriate for the particular couple and in general, should be shouldn't have an opposite sex friend that your spouse or significant other doesn't know or know about would be my opinion.

A policy of never having opposite sex friends seems draconian and a little difficult to enforce. How would it read: wife/husband: as you go out in the world today I do not want you to speak to anyone of the opposite sex ? (I'm being facetious but seriously how does the policy work in practical terms seems a little unclear to me).


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Looking to heal said:


> Are there examples of men and women in relationships with opposite sex friends who do not have sex or want to have sex ?
> 
> Pretty sure there are. So they answer to the question can men and women be friends is clearly yes.
> 
> ...


The focus for many seems to be on cheating physically. Which can be a result. So they measure activities by it. Not sure why many folks just don't understand how this stuff works for most people. Sure there are those spouses that intend to cake eat and cheat. They are pretty much a lost cause and are the not the spouses that will honor boundaries anyway.
So they just want blind trust and freedom to do what they want.

No the overwhelming majority are people who want to enjoy the emotional intimacy, attention and flirtations with the opposites sex above and beyond their primary relationship. Many of these are indeed lacking in their primary relationships so they are seeking to have needs met outside of it. Others may be having their needs met but like to cake eat emotionally. They feel that they can take these relationships to a level short of sex. That they can handle this on their own. Yes, there is a level of entitlement here as well. They can stop anytime they want. They just don't want to stop.

It really is not a matter if it is possible in any one case to have a friendship that does not end up in sex. There is a pretty good risk of that even with a high character individual. Of course someone with truly good character would not play this game at all. But it is not about cheating physically. That is typically a by product of the root cause. Emotional intimacy. If you or your spouse is seeking emotional intimacy with an opposite sex friend you are taking a risk. Might it work one out of three times. Idunno. Is a 50 / 50 chance ok? It may not end in sex but it will steal from the primary relationship ... something at some point. 

Having close opposite sex friends where one is essentially dating another person is a mating ritual. If these friends are kept at a distance by having known boundaries then there is no real problem unless they are ex lovers or if those freinds are predators. Most of the interactions will appear quite innocent. The foundation for marital destruction occurs during the innocent phases however and is best stopped there or better yet not started. It is actually in this phase where the primary relationship starts to be pushed to the background and the friendship becomes more and more important. This is not even about being overtly sexual. It is an EA at some level.

So this is why it just seems totally naive to hear people say, trust me, I won't cheat. They are playing just the tip with emotions. They probably believe it. Maybe they don't care. Women typically have to connect to have sex. Men typically have sex to connect. So the mating ritual goes on. Innoccently. We fall in love with friends. Most folks are only in love with one person at a time. In the middle the WS is confused, but the momentum takes care of that.

So sure you can have opposite sex friends. But not close intmate ones without significant risk. Those that claim their best friend is not their spouse and even more have an opposite sex best friend? Get real.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

What's worse, women are fed the notion that love is 'friendship on fire'. 'friends then lovers', etc, etc, etc, etc.... watch any craptastic romance movie it's always the best friend who secretly pines over the girl then suddenly... she falls in love with him and that is somehow the dynamic embedded into women's psyche of how it's supposed to work... The soulmate blueprint. 

I think girls and young women are conditioned to identify this type of event as the 'magic moment'... When it happens (feelings develop for a 'friend'), I believe many women slip even further into the 'fog' because of this storyline is forcefed into them from the get go...


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> *Before I had my EAs, I was in the camp that men and women could absolutely be friends with no problem whatsoever.* My husband was in that same camp before his. But, after going thru what we have, we now don't say that with absolute certainty. Do I have male friends? Yes. Does he have female friends? Yes. But there is a qualification to that. We are both very much aware of each others communication with opposite sex friends. I guard myself from getting close to any male friends. And he does the same regarding females. If I am uncertain of behaviors, I defer to my husband, and he does the same with me. One mutual male friend, I apologized to him for not seeming as friendly. I told him that at least some of the things his ex-wife told him were likely true, tho she liked to embellish stories...the main point was essentially true. And, I told him I am keeping my distance for that reason. He completely understood, and most correspondence is thru my husband instead.
> 
> I think, as a general rule, MAYBE men and women can be friends. But I truly believe, based on my experiences, that they can't be CLOSE friends. Not without some romantic thoughts creeping in. BUt it really is a fine line between friendship and romantic interest. And, sometimes, those lines end up blurred... which is why this really is a tough question to answer.
> 
> So, for my husband and myself... no, men and women cannot be friends, or at least close friends, without romantic notions entering into the equation.


Agree. IMO you have to have experienced a friendship turned EA to fully understand the concept. Otherwise, you're one of those who's still screaming 'just good friends'.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Looking to heal said:


> *Are there examples of men and women in relationships with opposite sex friends who do not have sex or want to have sex ?*
> 
> Pretty sure there are. So they answer to the question can men and women be friends is clearly yes.
> 
> ...


Yes, you're right, on some levels. I have had male friends during my lifetime, platonic friends, that I had no interest in pursuing sexually. BUT. They definitely had interest in me. So now what happens?


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## Aristotle (Apr 4, 2012)

No, a guy and girl can't be just friends. One of them stays attached at the idea of it could be more, one day. 

If you are married, then the answer is DEFINITELY no, a guy and girl can't be just friends. Acquaintances, possibly, but even a 30 second call is crossing boundaries. 30 seconds with the opposite sex that you could be spending with your spouse is already opening the flood gates. A lot of couples "player proof" their relationship by allowing the idea of "friends" and "space". Whether or not one of them have another agenda, or one of their "friends" has another agenda, the point is, you now have A LOT of agendas. This will not end well.

Not saying that those that do not allow "male friends/female friends" will not get cheated on, but it will not be with a guy/girl that they thought was a "friend" for the last 5 years, or an ex high school pal that is like a "brother". No.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> Agree. IMO you have to have experienced a friendship turned EA to fully understand the concept. Otherwise, you're one of those who's still screaming 'just good friends'.


I fear you are all too correct.

Smart people learn from their experiences. Really smart people learn from others experiences. Many of us are rarely that smart about this stuff. We are just flat wired to seek out the oppisite sex on multiple levels.

I had no idea what I was dealing with. I was superman. My character was too great to be concerned. I was different. Bulletproof. Immune.
And very naive and arrogant. 

Ultimately whne I realized it was an EA, it scared the [email protected] out of me. Because what I was relying on was not reliable. I have learned so much. It is very much tunnel vision for folks who do not get this stuff.

They do not see the matrix.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Exactly, Entropy. Which is why I insist on this boundary with my H, who also has had an EA. This was in the past, before we met, as was my own, but my H still doesn't think it was an affair, since there was no sex...so yes. OpSex friendships are dangerous, and a definite no for us.


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## daenerys (Jun 19, 2012)

Hi all! This is my first post here. 
What initially brought me here was looking up the NPR piece that started this convo. I had heard it on Sunday morning and then wanted to have my BF listen to it because I thought it applied. Then I wanted to find out other peoples' opinions on the subject, which brought me here. Then, I just had to sign up 

Anyway, we are in a new relationship... a bit over 3 months along, but moving very quickly... we're moving in together soon and "love" has entered our daily vocabulary.

So, on to why it applies to us, particularly him. He has quite a few "really close" or "really good" female friends. And when he has brought these friends up, he has made sure to point out that they are "really close" or "really good" friends. He's friends with his ex wife as well. I'm trying so hard to keep any kind of jealousy at bay because he hasn't given me a reason to be jealous. But knowing about these friends and knowing how these things can go, (I've been married and had EA's before) I am concerned and want to bring these concerns up to him in a manner that isn't going to start any kind of conflict. I'd like to talk about setting boundaries. I know that at least one of these friends has told him he's her "internet husband" in the past... of course I looked through his past FB wall comments to check stuff out, haha. I know that they are very close and talk about intimate details of life and who knows what else.
He told me he has never cheated on anyone. He told me he doesn't lie. Everyone lies at some point to some degree, so I take that with a grain of salt. And I don't know what his definition of cheating is, as it's different for everyone. He has said he's a serial monogomist. He told me one of the things he loves, is that I don't have a problem with him being friends with his ex. I don't have a problem with anything until someone gives me a reason to have a problem. The other close friends concern me more than she does.
We're both in our 40's so we aren't new to this crap. I hope he's understanding when I bring it up.

Well, I could ramble on here, but I won't. I just wanted to comment and say I've found everyone's comments on the subject very interesting.

Cheers!


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## Looking to heal (Jun 15, 2011)

@ Candiegirl,

I find the point you made interesting about you had male friends platonic for you not for them

When I was younger and single, it did annoy me at times women I would see who knew a guy was interested in them, enjoyed the attention etc. but had the were just friends speech ready to pull out if required.

I doubt you felt a responsibility to unfriend these platonic male friends at the time that was probably in your eyes their problem and you were ready to shut them down if need be.

I know some male friends who would consider them ****teases but I feel this is perfectly acceptable behaviour for a woman. A man should not expect sex or emotional intimicy just cause a woman smiled at him or was nice. 

I have been on both sides of an EA and on one side of a PA.

I understand how powerful these things can be and how risky it is to not recognize the risk in a couple situation which is why I advocate for clear boundaries and for some it may be no opposite sex friends fair enough.

I am just saying it is possible to have opposite sex friends where things don't develop which I thought was the original question being asked.

There are degrees of EAs and degrees of acceptable risk.

Never having an opposite sex friend at all seems too much to me.

It will minimize risk of infidelity, I don't debate that but you are basically given up 50% of the population who you might have interesting conversations with etc. seems like a lot.

Maybe there are two scientists of the opposite sex who would collaborate to cure cancer and they will never meet cause of their boundaries... (facetious again) but not a fan of thou shalt never do X or thou shalt always do Y rules...


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

I've never had an EA but I know enough about myself to know I cant really have female friends. Females are just too appealing to me. I can't not help but think about inappropriate things. They just pop into my mind involuntarily.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

daenerys said:


> So, on to why it applies to us, particularly him. He has quite a few "really close" or "really good" female friends. And when he has brought these friends up, he has made sure to point out that they are "really close" or "really good" friends. He's friends with his ex wife as well. I'm trying so hard to keep any kind of jealousy at bay because he hasn't given me a reason to be jealous. But knowing about these friends and knowing how these things can go,


Daenerys, first of all welcome! It's not often that we get visitors to this forum who aren't in the midst of emotional turmoil because their significant other is (or might be) cheating on them. Since you and your beau have been lobbing the 'love' word at each other and plan on moving in together, now would be a good time to discuss boundaries and needs. You sound like you might be having some concerns about all of his really close female friends, which is quite understandable. Likewise, it is very reasonable for you to be concerned about him being friends with his ex. However, if there are kids involved then this may not really be an issue. 

Since you both have been around the block, you should be able to discuss these matters without hurting each others feelings. Which is exactly what you should do before moving in with him. I don't envision him giving up his female friends, however, if he respects your feelings maybe he'll limit his contact with them -- or at the very least, include you when he sees them.

Again, welcome!


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

sinnister said:


> I've never had an EA but I know enough about myself to know I cant really have female friends. Females are just too appealing to me. I can't not help but think about inappropriate things. They just pop into my mind involuntarily.


I had an EA around 20 years ago, and learned quite a bit about myself, most of it bad. I have firm boundaries in place with women, because I know that I'm capable of being weak.

Hell, there's been times I've had to slowly back out of the Social Spot, being uncomfortable with the tone the thread was taking, and my reaction to it.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

sinnister said:


> I've never had an EA but I know enough about myself to know I cant really have female friends. Females are just too appealing to me. I can't not help but think about inappropriate things. They just pop into my mind involuntarily.


They are apealing to me, too. But, for whatever reason, I have never had a problem keeping them in the friend zone.


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## hunter411 (Jun 4, 2012)

If we are speaking about married people, yes it is possible, however, it is a recipe for disaster. I can only speak regarding my recent experience. WW said she has always had guy friends and always will. Keep in mind after admitting to an EA. Im 99% cetain it was a full blown PA. WW can have all the guy friends she wants, I just wont be around to worry about it. IMHO, Is it possible to just be friends? Yes Is it probable it will lead to EA/PA? Yes

I just wanted to add, I have had female friends and my WW has had male friends. Does a man only be freinds because they want to have sex with them? Absolutely not. It all boils down to the integrity and moral strength of the individuals in the friendship. Ive never cheated and never will because I couldnt live with myself. Its an individuals choice to do it or not.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

BigLiam said:


> They are apealing to me, too. But, for whatever reason, I have never had a problem keeping them in the friend zone.


That's called strenght of character. You have it BL. Me, not so much.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

sinnister said:


> That's called strenght of character. You have it BL. Me, not so much.


Maybe more like low Testosterone


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

I have many female friends and business mentors.
I am involved in the Fashion and Apparel business. All of the top designers in our region are female,and I am have very close friendship with a few.
They have shown me the" ropes " in the industry and I owe them a debt of gratitude.
All of these friends are single,middle aged ,divorced women at the top of their careers.
I have TREMENDOUS RESPECT for them , myself and my wife.
I have lunch with them sometimes,we have drinks, I can go to their private homes anytime,but we have NEVER crossed the lines, emotionally or physically.
I had the opportunity to go to China with one of them ,[ all expenses paid ], for a trade show. I did not go because I fore saw trouble
[ with other women on the trip ] and I thought my wife may not be comfortable with the idea. [ Although this woman, has a sexual preference for girls, many other females were on the trip.]. 
I believe men and women can be friends.As long as men respect themselves and know their boundaries...
If a lady " friend " is coming on to you in a particular way ,then obviously you have to get rid of her.
NOBODY CAN COME BETWEEN MY WIFE & I................


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Looking to heal said:


> @ Candiegirl,
> 
> I find the point you made interesting about you had male friends platonic for you not for them
> 
> ...


Oh, I never meant work/business relationships; but those should remain work or business, not eventually migrate to dinners out alone, etc.

I haven't given up any % of the population. I'm just not into being solo friends with guys. Too risky, as most often, the guy's got other ideas. We stick to business relations and couple friends and that gives us all the exposure we need to the opposite sex without feeling 'cut off' from anything.

I didn't need to unfriend my male friends who were interested in me...one took it to his grave before I had the chance to find out, and the other one was well aware that there was never going to be anything between us. He was my father's age. He's dead too.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Most of my opposite sex friends have been colleagues of mine at one time or another. They are not close friends.

In no way would a persons sex influence any appropriate interactions in my work life ... any more.
I work often with female Engineers, Architects and Project Managers. No problem. They are colleagues.
We keep it professional.

Needless to say that therefore I do not go over to their homes and cuddle on the couch and watch movies like some folks might do. But we do solve technical and business problems together.


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## Looking to heal (Jun 15, 2011)

I still find the notion that categorically men and women can't be friends absurd.

What about a female nun who is in a relationship with God ?

Should she not have male friends at all because they will try to screw her ?

I can think of many examples of where men and women can be friends with very little or no risk.

@ Candie Girl, so you are agreeing that men and women can be friends at work just not socialize after hours alone. That makes sense to be too.

And you were OK with a platonic friend who you knew was interested in more but also knew you could manage the situation.

I too think there are many people like you who can manage this type of situation without any problems.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Look think about it this way. A guys close female friend is an outlet. No matter what you call it friend, BFF, platonic (yea right be on the look out for this word guys.) friends. 
If a man trusts his wife with all those types of relationships, he better be ready to defend the nest. Most people fail to really understand that if a guy is devoting a lot of his time to a woman he is getting something out of it. The woman is as well. Just peruse this forum and there are plenty of woman who say "it started out as an innocent friendship." And no a friend is not some guy/girl you met once and talk to every once in awhile. That is an acquaintance. That is someone you know and are somewhat familiar with. 
A friend is someone you are comfortable with, you trust, you know very well. 
So lets separate the two. 
If a married man if friends with a single woman he knows her and trusts her and is comfortable enough to let his guard down. That equals a massive gaping hole for a EA to start.
It may take ten years for one of them to step up to the line. Eventually one of them, intentionally or not will creep up to that hole. Maybe the marriage is having some issues and this friend provides a safe place to vent. Maybe the single woman/man decides that she wants the woman/man all to her self. 
Enter any compromising situation you want and eventually some how some way the line will get crossed. 
Once the line is crossed EA or PA usually grow exponentially. So what started as a moment where a hand brushes another at a coffee shop. Could lead to a full on PA. 
A couple should have friends together. That way there is scrutiny. 
A woman/man can have any number of acquaintances of the opposite sex. They may talk to them once a month and get an update on life. However there is no emotional connection nothing drawing one to the other. Also the big key here is that they keep their distance from one another. 
The lady across the street from me. I talk to her once a month. I know her kid cuts her grass. I know that she likes to keep her yard nice and tidy. I don't know if her husband is lazy, or if she has a deep dark emotionally compromising secret. Our relationship will remain that way. 

Anyone who as be in or affected by an EA knows how easy it is. Before you say men and women can be friends think about it this way. Can man and woman only be friends a lifetime? I seriously doubt it.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

****Maybe the single woman/man decides that she wants the woman/man all to her self. ****

this happens. but also, i am just concerned about the low level disruption especially when it becomes frequent. I think a fair few get off on the notion that they're getting something from the married friend that the spouse isn't. I saw a thread on Love Shack in which a woman, proud of her male friends, also noted that "they treat her better than they treat their wives."


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

my wife was talking to a old friend. she thought we was a nice guy. then she realized he was a loser. eventually admitted that he thought my wife and him would get back together. my wife cut all ties. the whole reason my wife found out is that he and his other friend were fighting over who gets to speak to my wife. the second dude then started to talk to my wife a lot. i stopped it all once i realized he was calling her 3x a day and at different times. it had even begun to affect our marriage. but it was obvious this guy was pursuing my wife. and since my wife trusted him she really didn't see what was happening.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hunter411 (Jun 4, 2012)

badbane said:


> If a married man if friends with a single woman he knows her and trusts her and is comfortable enough to let his guard down. That equals a massive gaping hole for a EA to start.
> It may take ten years for one of them to step up to the line. Eventually one of them, intentionally or not will creep up to that hole. Maybe the marriage is having some issues and this friend provides a safe place to vent. Maybe the single woman/man decides that she wants the woman/man all to her self.
> Enter any compromising situation you want and eventually some how some way the line will get crossed.
> Once the line is crossed EA or PA usually grow exponentially. So what started as a moment where a hand brushes another at a coffee shop. Could lead to a full on PA.
> .


Yep, and then you end up on here telling your story.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

badbane said:


> If a man trusts his wife with all those types of relationships, he better be ready to defend the nest....
> 
> 
> If a married man if friends with a single woman he knows her and trusts her and is comfortable enough to let his guard down. That equals a massive gaping hole for a EA to start.
> ...



:iagree::iagree:

Probably never agreed more with a post on this forum - over a year's worth of looking at them.

This exactly happened to me. Only it took 20 years, not 10. I even have emails from my wife saying how OM "isn't even boyfriend material, let alone husband material"....just 5 years before her EA with him. Caught it very early, before PA. She adamantly denies it ever would have gone PA - but I flat out told her I didn't believe her.


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## piggyoink (Apr 10, 2012)

badbane said:


> Can man and woman only be friends
> a lifetime? I seriously doubt it.



http://friendszone.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/f14.jpg


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## heartbrok3n (Jun 5, 2012)

My views on this are different from most replying to this thread. I have a number of close female friends that i have no attraction for, and i am pretty sure they are not attracted to me either.

A couple of not so close female friends and a few acquaintances offered themselves to me when i was still single, and i declined them all.

That's just me, though. For a guy, i am unusually chaste, almost monk-like. Maybe that was the reason the latter group wanted me? Not because they were attracted to me, but to see if they could break down my walls and corrupt this "monk"?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I always love this topic so much (and, my goodness, it seems this year alone on TAM it's been made into about 10 different threads).

I will say... TAM has really opened my eyes to opposite sex friendships (especially the men's viewpoints on this). I have now become wary of opposite friendships. Which is kind of sad and enlightening at the same time.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> I always love this topic so much (and, my goodness, it seems this year alone on TAM it's been made into about 10 different threads).
> 
> I will say... TAM has really opened my eyes to opposite sex friendships (especially the men's viewpoints on this). I have now become wary of opposite friendships. Which is kind of sad and enlightening at the same time.


Damm, Jellybeans when do you find time to sleep? Over 10,000 posts. Wow!!


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## piggyoink (Apr 10, 2012)

Some people say it depends on the age of the man/woman in question. such as 20s, 30s, 40s, etc.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Damm, Jellybeans when do you find time to sleep? Over 10,000 posts. Wow!!


I don't sleep. I'm a fem-bot.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

piggyoink said:


> Some people say it depends on the age of the man/woman in question. such as 20s, 30s, 40s, etc.


I don't think it's age so much as situation and attitude. Having been a student in a major metropolitan city, I noticed that white students would get a hold of one of those nice newly renovated houses with 5 or 6 bedrooms and fill it up with as many students as possible, 1 per bedroom, and sex didn't matter.

What I noticed about the black students, particularly the guys, they tried to live on their own. But any kind of room-mate situation, it was always same sex. 

(Just in case, I am black and have dated and married white guys so I have had a long time to observe this.......)

i found it interesting at how the black guys would always make the assumption that the guys must be boning the women in those mixed gender situations and I couldn't understand that antiquated attitude.

That was back in my 20s........

While I am more cautious about male female relationships and have moved on from those mixed gender situations.....ie someone in their 40s and beyond needs to leave that college attitude behind, I still would look unfavourably upon that overarching macho attitude that some men have.


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## piggyoink (Apr 10, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> I don't think it's age so much as situation and attitude.


Well, that makes sense. Some people have a lack of self control no matter what their age is.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> I don't think it's age so much as situation and attitude. Having been a student in a major metropolitan city, I noticed that white students would get a hold of one of those nice newly renovated houses with 5 or 6 bedrooms and fill it up with as many students as possible, 1 per bedroom, and sex didn't matter.
> 
> What I noticed about the black students, particularly the guys, they tried to live on their own. But any kind of room-mate situation, it was always same sex.
> 
> ...



I knew this one girl in college that was a S L U T. Any way she lived with a guy friend who she thought was just her friend. They lived together for over two years. Yet I went over there one day with like 5 other guys and it was obvious that her guy friend was in love. Like scorned lover kinda love. I overheard guy friend planned on moving out. He hated her at this point cause she had been her best friend and nothing ever happened. 
She knew nothing about it. She just thought they were friends. After he moved out then never spoke again. Except in passing. 
I challenge anyone who has been in a coed habitation to have someone impartial that doesn't know anyone in the place to ask if they are attracted to another person in the cohabitation. I guarantee you there is attraction. 
Attraction equals an open doorway for a relationship. All relationships are built upon attraction. Whether it is looks, money, power, or attitude attraction equals temptation. 
Married or not the temptation is there.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

She was a **** and he still couldn't get any. Is this story accurate?


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

yea they had a thing and broke up. This girl was the biggest tease ever. The guy well at first I thought we was gay. He had no spine. They may have done stuff but, if so, there was no emotion in it on her part. heck one night i went over there and she offered me to come to bed( probably cause I was the only guy left). That I think was the last night I went over there. Wait nope I went back about a month later, and she was in love with a high school drop out she had dated. He laid stone counter tops. Very dumb fellow, I found out they got married. She has a degree. after a few beers he started talking about how dumb he is. Went on to mention we don't understand how hard life was because we come from rich families. ( this is the first time i met the guy mind you and no one in the room came from money.) 
Obviously now looking back on it she married him because she thinks he won't leave her. Anyway yea that is a true story. The sad thing is she is the one i lost my virginity to. (you don't know how bad i regretted that.)


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

badbane said:


> The sad thing is she is the one i lost my virginity to. (you don't know how bad i regretted that.)


Badbane, quit re-writing your history with this girl. At the time that was the best two minutes of your life. :rofl:


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