# Why is looking for a vehicle so painful?



## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I hate all the BS you have to go thru to being with. THe sales person going back and forth to the sales manager to see if they will accept what you are offering..why can't I just say here is what I am willing to pay do you accept yes or no myself directly to the manager?

As well the guy asked for my credit card while doing this I guess as a way to ensure I would not just leave during the negotiations. Which is something in hindsight kind of ticks me off and turns me off of their dealership. I have never had that happen prior.

THen because I had been there about a year ago checking things out....the sales manager mentions that to me..I see over a year ago you were dealing with so and so..yeah so what..does everybody buy the first time they walk in. I got the impression since he mentioned that he was annoyed, like I was going to waste their time again.

Plus I hate dealing with guys who just joined the company and no nothing about the vehicle. I asked the guy yesterday if he wanted to work for Toyota because he liked their product and he said no I am just doing this as a filler until I go away in the winter again???? Okay then. Turns out he owns a volkswagon.
Plus he was more interested in bragging to me about his winter home in California and Panama. He asked me nothing about what I was looking for and just talked about himself about 80% of the time during the test drive

I hate the whole process.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I just bought a new vehicle, and have been involved in some other forums for that. On thing that came up was the Costco buying program, where they have prenegotiated prices. Not sure if that would help...

C


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## sparkyjim (Sep 22, 2012)

A friend of mine went to buy a new vehicle, negotiated the price with them and then whipped out cash to pay for it. 

You should have seen how they freaked out, he said.

Apparently they make a certain amount on the financing. There are also give backs from the car manufacturer. In other words they can sell below the asking price because it has all been pre-arranged with the auto maker.

But if your sales person talked only about himself then he wasn't concerned with what you need. And I find it odd that the manager would bring up a previous visit. What was he trying to do, guilt you into buying a car?

I think you should go to another dealer and see how they treat you, but also maybe if you want a new car you should just embrace the fact that this is the way they do it. You can campaign against the "system" but that is only going to leave you hating buying a car.

It is better to learn how to negotiate with them and get the best deal for yourself. I am probably like you - I don't like the whole negotiating process either. I have a friend who loves it and I will run things past him. Some people are just born wheeler dealers...


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

OP, it sounds like you need to find a different dealership. Taking your credit card? That's not okay. And, yes, I strongly suspect that bringing up a previous visit was an attempt to guilt you into not leaving this time without making a purchase. These people just sound shady. And if not exactly shady, at least unpleasant to deal with. 

I still get asked if my husband/father will be helping me pick out my new car, or with all that confusing paperwork, or co-signing the loan, which is patronizing and irritating. And I've had them try to make me feel guilty for "wasting their time" when I wouldn't accept a bad deal. But I've never had them hold my credit cards hostage. That's just unreal. 

Call around to different dealerships and see if you can find one that's less....slimy....to their customers.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

I have only had two good experiences when buying a car. One was at the local carmax. Two was at the local Honda dealership. When it comes time for me to purchase another vehicle I'll go back to one of those places. 
It's really tough to find a decent place to purchase a vehicle.Which is kind of ridiculous considering how many dealerships there are in most cities.

ETA Taking your credit card is absolutely insane and bad business. I wouldn't buy a car from that place ever.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I know re: credit card...but it was one of those things that at the time I thought whatever and then started to get madder and madder about it when I got home.

It was so strange the sales guy..it was like he wanted to let me know, maybe because he was older, that he did not have to work but was just doing this as a filler becuase he owned all these homes.

I mentioned to him that we had bought a car we still have, that my son owns now, from this dealer about 15 years ago and he goes...that reminds me when my first wife had my son way back when I bought her a brand new BMW that she drove for 15 years...and what does that have to do with me telling you that we bought here previously?????


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

PLus I would like to trade in my 2003 Nissan Pathfinder which has about 245,000 km on it. I know it is an older vehicle that has some rust on it, etc. The engine is actually really good in it, never had a problem with it all these years however it has started to rust around the wheels, and have had problems with the check engine light, etc. that stays on constantly for no reason. 

THe guy was like your vehicle is worth nothing, we are just going to turn around and take it to auction becuase it is not the kind of vehicle we want on our lot...okay then..thanks!

Yes I know it is an older vehicle but still.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

oh yes,I love the people who feel the need to allude to the fact that this is not their "real" job. It's like whatever man,I don't give a f**k.Just treat me with the respect I'm showing to you and sell me a damn car at a reasonable price. I don't care about how you don't need this job and I don't care about anything other than getting a good car and getting the f**k out of this place within 2 hours. 

I just looooove the little jog back to the managers office every 15 minutes. So freaking juvenile and irritating.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I know Scarlet..more and more as I am thinking about it, it is like what a strange guy. Plus he had to make a point to tell me that he was expecting a 1.7 million dollar settlement from some lawsuit he had out re: his Panama property.

No kidding about why he is working...like I was really thinking when I met him, and saw he was older gee poor guy wonder why he has to work..sorry buddy thought never even crossed my mind. Plus it bugs me when I know more about the vehcile then they do.

Another thing to is toyota canada has a website and on it you can go and build and price, which pretty much all car makers have. So I have done that before anyway. He shows me that website and shows me the potential payment and says that is not bad, and I noticed that he did not check off the calculate all taxes, etc. So I said to him you should check off that box as well..and he just ignored me. Do you friggin think I am stupid buddy???? 

I can't believe that in this day and age with internet that they think people come into the dealer with zero knowledge about the vehicle/payments, etc.


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## Aspydad (Oct 17, 2013)

highwood said:


> I hate all the BS you have to go thru to being with. THe sales person going back and forth to the sales manager to see if they will accept what you are offering..why can't I just say here is what I am willing to pay do you accept yes or no myself directly to the manager?
> 
> As well the guy asked for my credit card while doing this I guess as a way to ensure I would not just leave during the negotiations. Which is something in hindsight kind of ticks me off and turns me off of their dealership. I have never had that happen prior.
> 
> ...


That's all high pressure sales tactics to get in your head so that the dealer gets int he driver seat during the negotiation. 

I advise taking the purchasing process in two steps:

#1 research and then sample many cars - do not buy during this process - don't even let them corner you - let them know - you are looking and will talk about buying once you make a decision.

#2 when you make a decision (and you could like two vehicles by the way) pick out which dealer you want to work with - generally the one that is closest or most convenient to where you work or live. Then, identify one to two more (this is for each vehicle if you have over one) I do not go to the dealer that I want to buy from first – I go to another one – then, I make a low ball offer – lower than invoice (say by $2K then do not budge) - they will come out with multiple counter offers to keep you from leaving – but, I do not budge. Last time I did this the manager came and told me to come back when I can be reasonable. Now, your educated and have a good feel how low they will go - not exactly, but you will be close. I then call the manager back (say within two days) to see if that is the best and final offer – they will usually come down a little more but – I am not at the dealership so – they can’t pressure me. I then go to the dealer I want to buy from armed with a low offer from another dealership – I then negotiate down even lower than the last offer I got from from dealership #1 – I certainly tell the dealership I want to buy from what the offer is from the other dealership - and advise that they must beat it buy a certain amount to get my business that day. Has always worked for me.

Note: If they try to get you to sign the offer, give a credit card as they did to you – I simply refuse – I take control and if they do not like it – I am on to the next dealership. Good idea to have approval from your bank for the loan if you need one – then once you make the purchase deal – shop that down as well with them – only use the dealer if they have a better deal.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

I would also suggest CarMax. They actually sell new Toyotas, Nissans and I think Chryslers and Jeeps for non negotiable prices that are usually 15% off MSRP. No pressure sales environment too.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I am pretty certain that I am either going to go for a VW passat or a camry.

PLus when I phoned there in the morning I told the guy specifically what model i was looking for i.e...LE with the upgrade package he said fine I will have one ready for you when you arrive to look at. We then set a time and I show up at that time and he does not have the vehicle ready and spent half an hour trying to find one. Of course he takes me for a test drive in one that has leather and that is not in the package that I wanted.

The ironic thing is on the phone he tells me that since I am so specific and he probably will not have to spend 3 hours with me that he could probably get me a good deal...yet I spent more time waiting on him when I got there to get his **** together.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

Some dealerships are slimy and others are not. It runs the gamut. In my area there is a slimy Toyota dealership and a good one. The slimy one offers the lower prices "on paper" but no one actually escapes from that place with a lower price. Plus they are subjected to high pressure up sells after they sign the contract. 

When the salesman asked for your credit card he was sizing you up to see how far he could go with you. I would have walked out. I walked out of a Nissan dealership after the salesman let me "stew" at his desk for fifteen minutes. He called me back at least ten times to apologize. The sales manager called me back to apologize. They played the psychological game that they like to play and lost. 

Your leverage is that you can walk out and that you aren't necessarily in love with what they are selling. 

The good salesmen are experts in the art of reading body language. They know the numbers inside and out. They live to put you under pressure. Some car buyers sign the contract just to get out of the dealership, even if the deal isn't so good. 

The best advice I can give you when you are treated badly is to insult the salesman or dealership and then walk out. It will feel empowering. I make it a point to antagonize any salesman who goes over the line with me. Not ignore him. Antagonize him if he's being an a$$. You'll never see him again so who cares?


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I did leave saying I want to think about it. Of course they sales guy says to me I don't understand I am giving you the best deal I can get and you want to leave. THen of course the manager comes over to try and persuade you to buy.

I am not going back..I am debating of they call to mention a few of these facts to them as to what turned me off of them.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

give them an online review


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I think what I will do is contact dealers, not that one I went to, and say this is exactly the model and package I am looking for. What is your best cash price...then we will just put it on our line of credit which is at 4% because when you pay cash you get a discount usually of up to $2,000.00 anyway which covers the interest. Plus I think you save on financing fees, etc.

I know they offer 0% but from what I read you are paying for it somewhere in the car.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I'm just tired of the antiquated nonsense with paperwork from the 1930's when buying a car was the biggest or second biggest purchase you would ever make. Now it's not. At least not for me. The average drive off price of a car purchase in the US last year was a bit more than $30,000 but - - a huge number of buyers purchase used cars and when the price is between $11-20K the stupid process of titling and 20 different forms is...stupid. And you should be able to drive away with a car AND the legally minimum amount of insurance built in, right then and there. Whole thing should take a half hour. I once walked out of a sale half processed after 2 hrs. Had enough. Never bought the car.

Another thing, if he's willing to write a check for the total right there, offer the buyer a discount. The dealership will always make it up in the service department. Don't point at a poster and tell me "The price is the price".

Don't lie, you bastards. When the Carfax says it was involved in a damage report of some kind don't tell me "This car had a very minor accident it's really nothing.." That's not nothing. That means it wasn't totaled. 

Don't ask me for a lot of personal information in order to test drive something. You don't need my email. 

Consumer Reports is bullsh^t. Worst new car I ever owned was highly rated by them.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Well more and more I am liking the line of credit thing..this way you write the dealer a cheque and you are on your way. The whole friggin process is so sleazy.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I do not say much to some of the women I work with because I have the feeling that they think it is strange that I do not bring my husband, but to me it is like I am buying it myself plus I have done the research and am very specific on exactly what model and package I want. 

I am the finance person as well in our home so I kind of deal with that stuff more than him..the funny thing is when he has to upgrade his vehicle I always go with him as I kind of know the money stuff more than him.

Is it strange that I just go on my own even though I have a hubby?? I ask because one girl I was telling about this was like why don't you just take your husband. After that I thought well I will not say anything more to her about me and my car buying woes

I just ask because sometimes I think other people find it strange that he does not go with me? It is like you have a husband bring him.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Regarding the vehicle itself, I do as much research online as I can. There are online forums that discuss pretty much every make and model on the market. And of course if I happen to have a friend or acquaintance who owns a vehicle of the same make/model, I'll hit them up w/ all kinds of questions, and possibly get a test drive out of the discussion as well.

With respect to financing, I like to have that done at my own bank. Walking into the dealership w/ a pre-approval in-hand is a pretty powerful tool. It also has the added -- and very intentional -- side-effect of severely limiting the amount of time that I'm required to be at the dealership.

With regard to pricing, you really can just about set your own price. You can hit up Kelley Blue Book, NADA, and Edmunds online to get ideas on what is and isn't a fair price. Once you know, you can make an offer and, if the dealer doesn't take it, walk away. There will always be another dealer out there who is willing to sell you want you want for what you want to pay, even if you have to go to a dealership in a larger city in order to accomplish that.

Do yourself a favor, though, and wait until the new model year vehicles are released later in the year. At that time the dealers are looking to make room for as much new inventory as possible, which means unloading the old inventory. And it's not just a space thing, either -- they literally have to sell so many of each previous year's make/model in order to qualify to receive the same amount that year. If you're lucky, there will also be some manufacturer's rebates and/or incentives as well.

Of course this assumes that you're buying new. If you're buying used, some of the rules are different. As a general rule, though, you can often buy a used vehicle for substantially less than what the dealer has listed as the sticker price than you can for a new vehicle.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

offer them lowball price at the end of the month. they might need one more sale to get their commission.

never give them a payment you can handle monthly always talk price of the car.

be patient and able to say well if you won't come down I'll shop around some more but feel free to call me when you want to be more reasonable. 

If you wait until you need a car you have no leverage and will never get a good deal or even a fair deal .


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

chillymorn said:


> offer them lowball price at the end of the month. they might need one more sale to get their commission.
> 
> never give them a payment you can handle monthly always talk price of the car.
> 
> ...


Good advice ^here. Also, any discussions involving a trade-in need to be handled _completely separately_ from any discussions involving pricing for the new vehicle. And _*NEVER*_ tell them what you owe on your trade-in; the vehicle is worth what it's worth regardless of what you owe on it.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

highwood said:


> I hate all the BS you have to go thru to being with. THe sales person going back and forth to the sales manager to see if they will accept what you are offering..why can't I just say here is what I am willing to pay do you accept yes or no myself directly to the manager?


You sort of can. I usually visit, talk to the guy a bit, tell him what I'm comparing, features I want and how much I'm willing to pay. I don't hang around wasting my time on the back and forth delay though. He gets one time - after which, I have other places to be and I tell him to call me. I tell him I'm in no rush to buy, and will hang out and wait for a dealer to sell at my price or just buy used. I've almost always gotten my price... although it sometimes takes them calling 2-3 more times trying to cut a deal. The most I move is a squeak up for some additional feature I could live without - on a vehicle that has everything else I want. They'll call you with several "final offers" and "this is the best I can do", and you just turn 'em down - "Yeah, I understand that. Just let me know if yall decide to let it go at $X and if I haven't already bought you'll have a deal." I've gotten my deal virtually every time in about 3-7 days. If you're in the neighborhood of the Edmunds.com price, you'll likely eventually get your deal. The salesmen will always do this song and dance, because so many people buckle - and it is their job to get as much as possible for the car right? Stick to your guns, don't worry about wasting their time, and be comfortable with heading out and coming back.



highwood said:


> As well the guy asked for my credit card while doing this I guess as a way to ensure I would not just leave during the negotiations. Which is something in hindsight kind of ticks me off and turns me off of their dealership. I have never had that happen prior.


Unacceptable. Remember you're the one in charge. If you don't want to, don't give them jack. You owe them nothing. They don't need your credit card and you shouldn't let them pressure/coerce/stress you into giving it to them.



highwood said:


> THen because I had been there about a year ago checking things out....the sales manager mentions that to me..I see over a year ago you were dealing with so and so..yeah so what..does everybody buy the first time they walk in. I got the impression since he mentioned that he was annoyed, like I was going to waste their time again.


This is legit, and they're not concerned with you wasting their time. Sometimes, its to hook you up with the guy who helped you last time - payoff for his effort working with you last time that didn't pan out. Other times, they just want to know they're paying attention - keeping tabs. "So, you were looking for a X last time... still in the market for one of those, or something else?" Its kinda like a generic form of rapport building. "Hey! I remember you! (not really, but I looked you up in our computer!)" 



highwood said:


> Plus I hate dealing with guys who just joined the company and no nothing about the vehicle. I asked the guy yesterday if he wanted to work for Toyota because he liked their product and he said no I am just doing this as a filler until I go away in the winter again???? Okay then. Turns out he owns a volkswagon.
> Plus he was more interested in bragging to me about his winter home in California and Panama. He asked me nothing about what I was looking for and just talked about himself about 80% of the time during the test drive


Seriously. I hate when I know more about the vehicles than the salesman.



highwood said:


> I hate the whole process.


I agree. Sales are high dollar items suck in general. It seems like the higher the price is, the more its all viewed as funny money and play games. I hate that they want to know what kind of a payment you're planning on... to frame affordability in terms of installments and distract you from keeping your primary concern on the total price. Oh, what's another $50 on the payment?  They have a lot of things they do to frame negotiations in terms best for them. Just remember to stick to your guns, and if you feel pressure or stress or urgency... leave and have them call you back. And as a rule... always leave regardless. Sleep on your decision and just come in and sign the paperwork tomorrow.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

car salsmen are pure trash! they are sent to classes to learn how to read body language and are taught all kinda of crap to pressure you into buying an over priced car.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Another thing I find funny is they always say well we don't have any of that model and package on the lot, we have to get it from somewhere else.

As well why do they always take you for a test drive in a higher level package?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

My first experience w/ a car salesman (actually he was the sales manager) was a horrible one. Basically he lied about the interest rate attached to the loan to squeeze an extra 35 bucks a month out of me. He claimed that the "deal" from the previous evening didn't go through. Bullsh*t, it just turned out that this other lender was offering them a bigger kickback. My Dad told him that we'd have the truck and keys back to him that evening. He buckled and admitted that he'd lied. Grrrrr...

Years later I ran into him at a different dealership when looking to buy a new car w/ my wife. Walked past his office w/ the salesman and saw him. Wound up fuming for a few minutes then just left.

I remember his name to this day, and will never do business at any place where he happens to be employed.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

highwood said:


> Is it strange that I just go on my own even though I have a hubby?? I ask because one girl I was telling about this was like why don't you just take your husband. After that I thought well I will not say anything more to her about me and my car buying woes
> 
> I just ask because sometimes I think other people find it strange that he does not go with me? It is like you have a husband bring him.


You should bring your SO, but not because he's going to do anything. A husband should bring his wife too. One person actively engages the salesman, the other stays detached and just observes and consults - reinforcing the engaged person. I've helped several people buy new cars, and each time I'm just sitting there hanging out, and occasionally reminding them its not about what the dealer wants... stick to your guns, you don't owe them anything. They give you what you want, or you don't buy. You have to be okay with leaving, and not get too attached to the car you don't yet have, or fall for commission sympathy ploys, or anything else. This is what you want. This is what you'll pay. That's all that matters. They take it or they don't, and you keep looking.

Its also helpful to have a second person. They can be looking things up on the fly if there is some wiggle room in the model/features you're interested in. You'll usually get a better deal on dealer stock than you will if you have to have it moved from another dealer.

Oh, and don't get fixated on a brand or be too specific. You don't want to give the guy the impression that you want *this exact car* and lo and behold he finds out that he's the only dealer with that exact set of features in the region. Being too specific is to his advantage. Be specific only on those things you actually must have... and make sure brand isn't one of them (even if it really is). You have to keep an attitude that the Honda over at Joe Bob's dealer is just as good as this Toyota and you're going to take the best deal - period (even if you know you only want the Toyota).

One more thing. You typically want to buy in early fall, or winter after xmas. Spring and early summer are when just about everyone is out looking to buy a car.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

highwood said:


> Another thing I find funny is they always say well we don't have any of that model and package on the lot, we have to get it from somewhere else.
> 
> As well why do they always take you for a test drive in a higher level package?


They want you to see the leather, heated sets, premium audio system, sunroof, etc and then decide that those are the options that you want. At that point you're on the hook for another 5-8 K easy. That's when you start rationalizing... "Well, I'm already going to pay X amount per month, why not a little more? I work hard, I'm a good spouse, parent, etc... I deserve it!"

And that's not to say that you don't deserve it, but you also deserve to not get bent over a barrel either. After all, you work hard for your money. Why give it away to them?

What you could do is this... If you see an option or add-on that you like, negotiate a price for it. I think edmunds.com will show you what the actual dealer cost for each add-on is -- offer them THAT.

What's always been frustrating to me is that I can never seem to find the exact vehicle that I want -- the vehicle w/ everything that I want and nothing that I don't want (or at least don't want to pay for).


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## long_done (Jun 5, 2014)

Car shopping is a lot better today. Just shop online. Email every internet sales manager about the car you want, ask for their best quote. Then go back to each one with the best quote you got and see if they will do better. 

Get the offer in writing, then go to the dealership to finalize the deal. If anything is different when you visit, leave immediately.

Dealers realize they are losing huge amounts of power with shoppers. You do not have to put up with BS.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

highwood said:


> Another thing I find funny is they always say well we don't have any of that model and package on the lot, we have to get it from somewhere else.
> 
> As well why do they always take you for a test drive in a higher level package?


Don't accept that either. If the car you want is on the lot, say you want to drive *that* one, not the upgraded one. You just say that you won't buy a vehicle you haven't driven.


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## bbdad (Feb 11, 2013)

We live debt free. We buy our cars outright. If you have that means, it does give you a bit more power. My wife wanted to buy her current vehicle without me being there. I encouraged her to do this all the way. 

She researched what she wanted on line. We typically buy 2 yr old vehicles. She found dealers that had what she wanted. She test drove at the first dealer and didn't get a good feel for things, so went to the second dealer. She drove and liked the vehicle. She had Kelly Blue Book pricing printed with her. The sales guy tried to upsell a bunch of things and tried to say he couldn't do the price she wanted.

She just said, "Here, I am going to write this check for $xx. I don't have time to mess around. You take this to your manager and be back in less than 5 min. Either we make the deal with this, or I leave." The guy was back in 3 min and was shaking his head, kind of chuckling. He stated he didn't expect the sales manager to OK it and said she had great skills in closing a deal.

She was happy. I was proud of her for making the deal on her own. And, we both felt she got a great deal on the vehicle.

Moral is: Pay outright if you can. Write a check and say this is my only check and my final offer. If they won't accept, walk.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

My fav bullsh*tters are the luxury dealers. Go to any Porsche dealer and they'll play all astonished when you make an offer below what they want to sell it for. Its a ploy to make you feel cheap or broke on one hand (you don't buy a Porsche without having a healthy ego), and a way of claiming their cars are "special".

Then they'll tell you they don't have to mark them down... they fly off the lot. That must be why you've seen that same car on the lot for the past few months. 

They are really, really good at kissing arse when you actually buy though. haha


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

Paying up front is the way to go.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

BTW, has anyone ever been told by a dealer that his kids would go hungry if he gave you the price you wanted?

:rofl:


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

ntamph said:


> BTW, has anyone ever been told by a dealer that his kids would go hungry if he gave you the price you wanted?
> 
> :rofl:


Oh. Dude. The sales manager that I mentioned earlier... The salesman that my wife and I were dealing w/ when I ran into him years later... 

He didn't pull any of that w/ us but he did w/ a buddy of mine. He'd gone in to look at Mustangs and the guy talked him into test-driving one of the after-market upgrade packages (Bullitt, Saleen, or something like that...?) that they had on the lot. Well, after the test drive they go inside to run some numbers. Then the salesman comes back to him w/ some sh*t like "Oh man, I'm in so much trouble. I didn't know it but I wasn't supposed to let anyone test drive that car. My boss says that I might lose my job if you don't buy it. Man, I've got a wife and kids to feed."

Fortunately my buddy didn't take the bait and just walked out. Kinda funny that, months later, he was still there. In fact, while talking w/ the guy, he told my wife and I that he'd never been married and didn't have any kids.

What a d**checanoe.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> "Oh man, I'm in so much trouble. I didn't know it but I wasn't supposed to let anyone test drive that car. My boss says that I might lose my job if you don't buy it. Man, I've got a wife and kids to feed."


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

ntamph said:


> BTW, has anyone ever been told by a dealer that his kids would go hungry if he gave you the price you wanted?
> 
> :rofl:


To that effect, yes. "Well, I gotta make a living and we have to make something off this deal. You're asking price practically costs us money."

Particularly funny after they sell it to you for your price a couple days later... always with the elated "wow, you've gotten the best deal I've ever seen. I didn't think my manager would go for that! I think they're really trying to move this or that model; make room; whatever." They still made plenty on the sale and holdback.

Its all crap. The up front cash thing isn't even that big when buying new. You want the best possible deal, you go with dealer financing - they're more willing to make a deal because they get other incentives when you finance through them. Toyota Financial makes some extra money off you on top of the car sale. Then you just pay the thing off early.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> *You want the best possible deal, you go with dealer financing* - they're more willing to make a deal because they get other incentives when you finance through them. Toyota Financial makes some extra money off you on top of the car sale. Then you just pay the thing off early.


That all depends on what they're offering. A good general rule, though, is "Beware of the F&I guy!" Your bank is working for you, the F&I (financing and insurance) guy is working for the dealership.

Most of the time -- once they've run your credit and handed your score out to several different lenders -- you're not gonna be presented w/ a list of lenders that want your business. You might get it if you ask for it and, even then, the F&I guy isn't necessarily going to be willing to show you what kind of interest rates they're willing to give. What he might show you is a list of lenders and associated interest rates, but that's only after he's added a couple of percentage points. That's essentially the dealer's cut of the deal and they make a LOT of their money in that room.

Now, if you can get Ford, GMAC, or Toyota financing, they can offer some really good rates, and lot of times there may be some additional incentives attached to the financing. If not, though, stick w/ your bank. Like I said, the pre-approval letter is a pretty powerful tool.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> That all depends on what they're offering. A good general rule, though, is "Beware of the F&I guy!" Your bank is working for you, the F&I (financing and insurance) guy is working for the dealership.
> 
> Most of the time -- once they've run your credit and handed your score out to several different lenders -- you're not gonna be presented w/ a list of lenders that want your business. You might get it if you ask for it and, even then, the F&I guy isn't necessarily going to be willing to show you what kind of interest rates they're willing to give. What he might show you is a list of lenders and associated interest rates, but that's only after he's added a couple of percentage points. That's essentially the dealer's cut of the deal and they make a LOT of their money in that room.
> 
> Now, if you can get Ford, GMAC, or Toyota financing, they can offer some really good rates, and lot of times there may be some additional incentives attached to the financing. If not, though, stick w/ your bank. Like I said, the pre-approval letter is a pretty powerful tool.


Ah, let me restate... what I'm talking about applies to factory financing only. 

The point is that the factory financing provides incentives for the dealers to push the loans too - such that when you're going to finance through them, they're more inclined to budge further on price than if you weren't financing through them. None of the factory financing I've seen comes with much of anything dodgy, and if you have the cash, you just pay it off early... I haven't seen any early payoff penalties. If you are going to finance regardless, and you have good credit... its a slam dunk to hold out for the new model to be unveiled; the current gen plummets and a lot of the time there will be some sweet factory financing incentives.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Bottomline in this day and age every dealer knows what every other dealer will sell for. There's almost no arbitrage. So if you don't get the number you like, walk out and go to the next place. Maybe they won't do any better but you can try.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I love observing the way my husband negotiates. He is definitely the type to research until he's almost an expert on whatever it is.

He doesn't like haggling and the back and forth and states that. He puts forward his best offer and is always prepared to just walk after that - but he's never had to. Just because someone wants you to dance, doesn't mean you have to.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

I went into a dealership two years ago when I was still with my last H, and was trying to buy, not one, but TWO used cars for our daughters. We had been out and test drove them, and went in to work on a deal. You would think they would be falling over themselves to work a deal with someone purchasing two vehicles. NOPE. Maybe because we were a bunch of girls or something, but we walked out of there with NO cars being bought. Amazing.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Oh, I just remembered this one. Last year when I was looking for a truck, I found one at a dealer and looked up the KBB on my phone app, and they had it priced more than three grand over the KBB value. Turns out they are one of those bottom line, no haggle price dealers. I told the salesman what I would pay for it, which was the Kelley pricing, and he basically laughed at me, that there was NO WAY they were selling that truck for that price. I pretty much laughed back at him because there was no way they were getting that price on that vehicle, and they sure as hell didnt get MY business that day.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

So if I get what I would like I would be asking for about $3,500.00 off of the vehicle price...reasonable??


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

highwood said:


> So if I get what I would like I would be asking for about $3,500.00 off of the vehicle price...reasonable??


Depends on the vehicle. Spend some time on edmunds.com looking up dealer cost vs. MSRP for whatever it is that you've got in mind. You should also see similar numbers (dealer cost vs. listed price) for each of the add-ons.

Get a copy of the window sticker for whichever vehicle you're looking it. Sometimes you can download it in PDF format from the dealer's website if you have the VIN.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Find out the "invoice" price of the vehicle in question. You should be able to get it around that price, plus or minus depending on it's popularity. 

My sales person told me up front what his invoice price was without me asking, and it actually coincided with what I had researched. Go figure! . And we went from there.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I went at lunch and there is $364.00 dollar difference in what I want to pay and want they want. THeir attitude toward me is what is the big deal $364.00 but my attitude is they are a huge dealership what is the big deal on their end???

THey are making it seem like they will make nothing if they lose that $364.00.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

highwood said:


> So if I get what I would like I would be asking for about $3,500.00 off of the vehicle price...reasonable??


New? By vehicle price do you mean MSRP?

If new, 3,500 off would be on the low side. Go to Edmunds.com, look up the car/features and look for their actual sales prices. I think they provide an average and a range.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

And next time, go back at ten minutes to closing on a Saturday, and start negotiating for at least an hour. Then, psychologically, you have the upper hand.

Everyone's been there all day, and the salesman, manager, and finance manager all have to stay until you are done. After being there for 12 hours, and a weekend, everyone just wants to finish up and go home. They may agree to a reasonable offer more readily out of haste.

Also, if you have young kids, take them with you...and tell them your going to play a fun game...of who can be the most annoying and whiny during this meeting. If they do a great job, they get slurpees after your done. The interruptions and whining from your kids will take the salesman off balance.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

The more luxury the car, the higher the markup.

Last I read, I think the markup between factory and dealer invoice on an escalade was about 30k. A Chevy cruze was about 6 to 8 k. I couldn't fathom what a Porsche markup would be.

If you can research these figures, you know how much to haggle.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

In the old days it was going to all the dealerships within reasonable distance and I would hand them my business card with my price and options on it and say do not call me back until you can meet that price. Worked like a charm.

Now it is all about the internet. You should not even have to walk on a lot until you know the deal is written and ready to sign. If used I do like the CarMax deal as well. Straightforward set price and no bs.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

I didnt go through the entire thread so I dont know if this was mentioned yet. Either way, let me describe what I have done for my last 2 car purchases that made it easy and fast....

Email Negotiations

Create a throwaway email address because you will be getting emails forever from dealers. Once you decide on the vehicle you want and features, go to the dealers website and fill out the form that you are interested in the vehicle. Tell them in the contact form that you will be out to buy the vehicle on a certain day and you will purchase it from whomever can get you the best price. They will all ask for a number to call you at. Do not do this. I repeat, do not leave your phone number, only an email address. Ask what their best price is.

Next step is to do this to every dealer that sells that car in your area. They will all reply back with a price. Take the lowest offer and reply back to all the other dealers that Dealer A is offering you this price and can they beat it. Once they do, rinse and repeat by emailing the other dealers that this dealer is offering me _____, can you beat that price.

Eventually some will bow out of the race and then the last two will end up in a sort of bidding war. Once you get the price you are happy with you just walk in to the dealership and sign. 

I've done this for my last two cars a day or two before going into the dealership and it worked perfectly. If you walk into a dealership without doing this, they have the home court advantage. This way, you have all the advantage and they either want your business or they dont. It went smoothly for me both times, but if they ever tried to change the pricing from what was promised, I would just get up immediately and go to the dealer with the 2nd best price. Believe me, they wont give up the sale, they'll honor the price.

This works even better if you do it at the end of the month. I just bought my car at the end of April and I got it for $1000 less than what I was hoping for by doing this.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Car shopping sucks. I've had good experiences and bad. Now that I'm experienced, I don't give in to the BS any more.

The first car I ever bought (a Hyundai!), was a breeze. The salesman was a nice guy, and didn't want to be there - he hated his job. That worked to my advantage, because he just didn't care. No tricks, no BS.

I went back to that same dealership a few years later, and then had an awful experience. Got a new salesman, apparently still in training. The guy who was "training" him was a real slimey guy. Maybe mid-20's, overweight, loud and obnoxious. Greasy hair. Used ALL the tricks, and then some. He was obviously trying to show off to the new guy he was training. My ex wife called him "gross", and that was an apt description. He LOOKED like a car salesman.

When I was done with haggling, as it was going nowhere and getting late, I got up, told them I'd think about it and be back the next day. FOUR guys, including the slimey guy BLOCKED the door and circled around my ex wife and I! I wouldn't have been able to reach the door without physical contact. 5 minutes they stood there, trying to get me to sit back down and hammer it out. 5 minutes I repeatedly told them we had somewhere to be and we'd be back (which at that point was a lie, I wasn't coming back after that). I eventually lost my temper, told them I didn't appreciate being blocked from exiting and told them to gtfo of my way.

Got a phone call a few days later from the slimey guy and I ripped him a new one over the phone and told him not only would I never buy a car from there again, but nobody I knew would, either. And I made sure to tell anyone who would listen about my experience. I told him I didn't appreciate the pressure tactics, and especially being blocked from the door when we were trying to leave. He denied doing this, said we could have left anytime we wanted. I told him I didn't remember it that way, and that he was terrible at his job. He proceeded to tell me how many cars he sold each month and that he was good at his job. I said "good for you, your parents must be proud". Silence. *click*.

My wife bought a new car about 3 years ago, and that one worked out well. She has no patience for BS and doesn't fall for the car salesman tricks. The guy figured that out in about 5 minutes. "Okay, I just need your credit card and I'll go talk to the manager" "Hell no, you go talk to your guy without my credit card, we'll be outside". "But I need your credit card or my manager won't discuss the deal with me". "That's your problem, isn't it? If you argue this with me one more time, we're leaving". So he goes, comes back in under a minute and says "My manager won't talk to me without a credit card". "Okay, we're leaving. Thanks anyway". Then he got **** done from that point on.

That's how you have to handle these guys. YOU have all the power, their trick is to get you to believe THEY do. YOU'RE buying something from THEM. You can get up and leave whenever you want. They try to pressure you to buy now, at their price. You don't have to. They try to confuse you. They have everything to lose, you have nothing to lose. Remember that, and everything will go smoothly.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

PBear said:


> My sales person told me up front what his invoice price was without me asking, and it actually coincided with what I had researched. Go figure! . And we went from there.


Damn. That's beyond rare. LOL, must've been his last day on the job.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Here is how you resolve the problems you are dealing with OP.

a) DO NOT go to a dealer

b) know exact model/specs/options you want (do research on your own). There is TONS of information out there for you.

c) Email dealer and ask them to make the best offer on the exact model/spec/option vehicle.....ON PAPER

d) have your budget figured out and financing set. If bank, tell the dealer you got the payment covered. If dealer, apply for it but whatever you do, don't EVER answer the "how much a month do you want to pay" question.

e) ask them to send you sales agreement over email. Go over it at your convenience and decide if you want to purchase.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

I find it funny that people recommend CarMax on here...I did not have a good experience with CarMax! This was only a few months ago too...

Went in to do a test drive, with pen and paper in hand. Was upfront that my intent was only to look and get comparison prices.

Salesperson made me wait fifteen minutes to be seen (should have been strike one). After the test drive, he again leaves me for a long time to "speak to the manager". I asked a few questions about the vehicle - basic ones, like "how old are the tires" and "when was the car's navigation system updated" (it had a navi). He waffled, refused to give me straight answers, and tried to spin the answers ("well, the navigation was probably last updated by the factory, but it's only a couple hundred bucks to update and shouldn't be a big deal"...on a 2006!). He also sped through the financing paperwork so I had a difficult time writing down the exact percentages and numbers he was giving me.

I was there alone, as well, so I'm sure the "single female" aspect didn't help matters.

When I was leaving, he told me that the price they'd offered was a great deal and that if I didn't respond in a day I'd lose that deal.

Walked out, haven't been back since. Still need a new car though...


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

LoveAtDaisys said:


> I find it funny that people recommend CarMax on here...I did not have a good experience with CarMax! This was only a few months ago too...
> 
> Went in to do a test drive, with pen and paper in hand. Was upfront that my intent was only to look and get comparison prices.
> 
> ...


Not to jump on you, and I don't have any thing for or against CarMax... I think people just cited them because its usually "sticker price" there... but I don't really see much wrong doing in what you've described.

Waiting... kinda depends right? If they can't get to you they can't get to you. It can be all kinds of legitimate things. Maybe someone called in sick. Or even, if you say you're only there to look, and someone else says they're there to buy... who are you gonna be more eager to help if you're him? Just a thought.

As for waffling and crap answers... I wouldn't say that's specific to CarMax. So many of these sales people at dealerships don't know squat about their vehicles. CarMax, being a used dealer, is particularly difficult - that's a lot of models to know. Something like "how old are the tires?", well, you're guess might be as good as his. If he's been around cars awhile, the best he can tell you (if they didn't outright buy new tires) is "it looks like about 80% tread remaining to me." Of course you can do this yourself... bring a quarter or tire gauge.

Spin... do you mean saying "shouldn't be a big deal"? Most people don't update their navi, and CarMax pretty much sells as is. They're not going to update it. Most manufacturers do charge about $250 for navi updates... hence why so few people update them. He was pretty straight there.

I'm not aware of CarMax giving special deals. I thought they're a no-haggle place. The sticker is it. Maybe I'm wrong? Its been a long time.


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