# After the Lies - the Dawning



## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

And so you get up you walk the dog and you live with it. You get the breakfast for the kids and you live with it. You watch your partner reading the morning paper and you live with it. You haven't even fully opened the door on this stunning Sydney autumn day and you live with it. You will get out there amongst it with your family and live with it. What a bucket of sh!t - but you'll live with it.

I'm angry this morning - angry that my so called partner has put me through this. 3 weeks of up and down misery - trying to get back on the rails, drifting from despair to cold steel eff YOU! It is incredible how prolonged this pain can be - let alone contributors talking about trust possibly returning after 3-5 years if ever.

Early in the evening last night I sent 2 e-mails to my partner. She has her work laptop at home. Maybe I should have said come here pls and read this now but anyway I didn't. I e-mailed 2 very good pieces. One was about infidelity with advice to the cheater and the cheated and the other was about "The 10 myths of relationships" (both by Dr Phil). 

These messages are IMO important reminders of what we need to consider in this thing we all call a marriage or a partnership. It enabled me to re-think what my expectations are, what is realistic and what is fantasy. A tune-up if you like. You might think it's all a bit odd given the betrayal but I got a lot out of it and I though my partner would as well.

The same goes for the other message on infidelity. It helped re-align my thinking and I thought this would be of particular use, given the circumstances, for my partner. To help her take ownership and hopefully open her more to the full impact of this betrayal and the fact that she needs to do more than sit back and be nice and occasionally f**k me and hope it all blows over.

A short time later I was in the kitchen and I casually asked her if she had read the two messages - she hadn't. Nor did she then proceed to read them - she was playing a game on her LT at the time. Still hasn't read them though she has just got up this morning. 11 hour sleeps are standard on weekends for her.

The other thing is - at one point last night when she was sitting there on her LT she said to me "oh not tonight". I think this was in reply to my mentioning the e-mails but it may have been something else i said - I am given to occasionally making puns re her EA/PA (coping mechanism) - but in any case she put up the "stop" sign because she thought we were about to have another fight.

I was glad with the way I handled it. I turned around and said "Don't do that, don't ever do that. If I need to open this up at any time you are just going to have to wear it. Don't ever dictate when is or is not appropriate about dealing with what happened. That's just the way it is". She backed right off and agreed. She's being very neutral, very friendly, very "normal" but that's about it.

Yes, I'm wondering how this R is going to unfold over the next weeks and months. This ahole OM is following me around like a bad smell and she put him there. This is the bit they don't get. My partner thinks she is empathising in her neutral approach but she hasn't got a clue. 

The last two years I went through depression, I worked casually (30 hrs per week) for 5 years up to June 2012 even though I had been Mr Mom since 2005. I quit that job when her new gig started simply because there was no one to get our kids to school (she was 6 months out of work/trying to find a job due to redundancy). My early starts were out and so was the job. She started her PA the same month - it coincided with a r-union party for the staff of the previous job. 

I have to accept that nothing existed with this co-worker when they were actually working together because he, the OM, told me the June 2012 re-union party was the beginning. Though I have never questioned her or him about an EA at that time. I will ask that question today - we have to know, so demoralising and painful but we have to know. 

"Why do you need to know so much, why are you blowing this up?" she asked recently. Walk a mile in these shoes I say. They just don't get it. 

That's enough - is this not the just the nastiest, degrading slap in the face? I didn't deserve this and now, in my bloody 50's I have to go through it. I was hoping to land "that" job (something, anything!) and work it till retirement or whenever I finally drop off and meanwhile help my kids grow - get over the depression, start enjoying life and this happens. The absolutely worst possible thing emotionally and physically for an effectively healthy person. Effing lying mongrel bastards the lot of them.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Horizon,

You know she's not remorseful, not if she's giving you the **** you describe here.

You also know what that means to your R.
You have to wake her up somehow or it'll never work.

I'm sorry she's treating you this way.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Wow 
She is just so.... so... comfortable? with the whole situation. Expects you to get over it like the common cold and not be bothersome.

I've suggested before and do so again - be more independent. Start a serious workout program. Begin with long walks/jogs. get your wind. 

Then start looking for employment - something to get you out of the house. Even if you only earn enough to pay a sitter or house cleaner. You have to take care of yourself without neglecting the kids.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Horizon said:


> _"Why do you need to know so much, why are you blowing this up?" she asked recently. Walk a mile in these shoes I say. They just don't get it._



This should be memorialized forever. 

The betrayer is not the victim. The betrayed is. 

Let me put it this way....

If I was driving drunk and hit a person and they lost their legs or ended up in a wheelchair for life, eventually I get over it and move on. But the poor damn victim has to live with what I did to them forever. Every single day. Every single hour. So the other person eventually forgets about it and starts drinking again because it just isn't their problem. 

They don't get it because they simply do not care to. 

And I maintain when the betrayer just doesn't care about what they have done (it's our problem, not theirs) it means they are substantially more likely to betray again and also make a statement that they really don't have any real love for their victim.

And that means it's time to end the relationship.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Horizon, my friend...there is no reconciliation until there is true remorse from your wife. You cannot do this alone. You won't be able to. There are far too many stories on TAM that show such.

I am sorry for the place you're in. I almost feel guilty having a wife who got it shortly after Dday and has done her heavy lifting and still does more than a year later.

I will say, I smiled when I read your response, "Don't do that, don't ever do that. If I need to open this up at any time you are just going to have to wear it. Don't ever dictate when is or is not appropriate about dealing with what happened. That's just the way it is".

THAT is key. If she doesn't get that, well...reconciliation is a long way off.

I can only hope you find peace in all of this sh-t.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

And she has now been back in bed for 3 hours after I laid it on the line (after posting my original thread) that she needs to own the continuing contact this year after continually pushing the line about having broken it off last year. I told her she is deluded if she thinks I am buying any of it - "My eyes are wide open" I told her "and if you think this casual, let's forget all about it and I'll f**k you occasionally routine is going to cut it you are dead wrong!" and so much more. She really is convinced of her own BS. Think on these retorts from her this morning.

"It was nothing to do with you"
"I wasn't emotionally involved this year"
"I was trying to break it off"

Sorry darling but let me refresh for you. In the texts from Dec 2012 to March 2013 and the e-mails in March which she she wiped, nowhere and I repeat nowhere is there any line from you rejecting his contact. Where is the evidence of you telling him to F**k off? Especially considering you busted up with him, let him go, whatever - no you didn't!!!. there is non evidence.

"you weren't there!"
"You are making something of it that it wasn't"
"I know what was going on, not you"

Darling, anything you do that you wouldn't want me to know about is cheating! I told her. I can only hope that she will one day own the fact there was plenty of scope for this PA to fire up again. When I probed about other blokes who she had worked with in previous positions she looked aghast at me. "Come on darling you know what I mean, that bloke ________ who you always called gorgeous. Maybe I'll front him i said.

Well didn't she lose it then. "What, now I have to expect that you will be probing around asking questions...."

"Well maybe so darling, anything can happen now. You created this - you broke, you own it"


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Time to end the relationship. Being continually lied to as if you're an idiot isn't love. Heck, it isn't even respect.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Horizon said:


> She NEVER broke it off after lying that she did.
> This is what she thinks about our realtionship:
> "It was nothing to do with you"
> "I wasn't emotionally involved this year"
> ...


Fixed.
Too many words.
You do what you want, but that doesn't read like a wayward spouse who wants to work on a relationship.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

March 2013 is not that long ago. Not impossible that she is still fogged.

You know what is said around here. Start working on you. Start getting your ducks lined up so you can stand on your own. Even if you want to be married you need to be in that position to negotiate as equals.

BTW. I am 23 years out and successfully reconciled, and I still "live with it". It will never be like she didn't have an affair for me.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

I don't understand you. You wife disrespected, continues to disrespect. Shows no remorse, can't be bothered to do the heavy lifting...

and you take it..

There is no dawn here, only dusk. YOU are doing the work, you are TELLING her to empathise with you...you shouldn't have to bl**dy tell her...she should be feeling this, it should have been automatic, she should be feeling it yesterday, today and in the future.

You never got back the respect she lost for you when she was conducting the affair. She has nothing to fear, she is comfortable.

At weekends she can open her eyes, be comfortable and go back to sleep...it's all about her. 

She can play her games and ignore you..it's all about her

She can sleep with OM and not give a rats a$$ about you..it's all about her

So what do you do? You scream, shout, get mildly angry and ask her what about me? She looks at you with pity and asks..what about you?

Plenty of people angry here for you..that's the sad part. You write here and whinge and moan, let her walk all over you. You're a grown man. Start acting like a grown man that has been disrespected... but you shouldn't have to be told that should you?


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

"Have you read the 2 e-mails I sent you?"

"Yes"

"What did you think?"

"I don't know what you want me to say"

Game over


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Horizon said:


> "Have you read the 2 e-mails I sent you?"
> 
> "Yes"
> 
> ...


I would consider letting that one go. 

You read a lot about what a spouse must do to demonstrate remorse on TAM, and my wife did very little of it. She felt that any attempt to discuss the affair was an attack on her, so she resisted it.

It's been years....I have no doubt in the sincerity of our reconciliation.

And I could imagine her responding as yours did.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Horizon said:


> ...... When I probed about other blokes who she had worked with in previous positions she looked aghast at me. "Come on darling you know what I mean, that bloke ________ who you always called gorgeous. Maybe I'll front him i said.
> 
> Well didn't she lose it then. "What, now I have to expect that you will be probing around asking questions...."
> 
> .........


I'll not comment on any of it as I've said enough in the other thread. 

However on this little gem I will say this.

Every single time my gut went ape **** and I hinted, confronted I got this line - 
"don't be ridiculous, he's not even my type". Well my gut was right every time. It was her calling card. 
If she had said "no I haven't but he is gorgeous and you wouldn't blame any girl!" I would have been on safer ground 

But the one she did used was a guarantee.

From your wifes response and should you actually start digging a whole lot deeper be prepared my friend ....very prepared


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

I don't sense false R.
I don't believe she's deluded herself into this sugarcoating and downplaying she displays either.
I believe she's gone, checked out so she can't fake be bothered for the marriage, empathetic to you. Her denials and minimizing is just the first line of defense becuase if she had to admit and face the real uglyness she "knows" the natural, spontaneus response should be different but she doesn't find herself capable, willing to "fake" what she doesn't feel. Pretending to care is too much work.
That's why she acts "as if it's not a big deal", becasue for her "you are not a big deal", she's not into you. The marriage is dead for her. 
This or there's something structural, celular about her lack of empathy.


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## goshjosh (Mar 23, 2013)

I think it is very hard for the WS to have empathy for what the BS is going through. It does not mean they are malicious, but it does end up causing the BS more pain. 

I think everyone shows remorse in their own way. On these boards, people are pretty harsh and think the WS should do x and y. I think in real life things aren't always black and white. You know your WS best, you need to define what remorse looks like to you and hold her accountable to that standard. Somethings (e.g. NC) are obviously non-negotiable.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

goshjosh said:


> I think it is very hard for the WS to have empathy for what the BS is going through. *It does not mean they are malicious,* but it does end up causing the BS more pain.
> 
> I think everyone shows remorse in their own way. On these boards, people are pretty harsh and think the WS should do x and y. I think in real life things aren't always black and white. You know your WS best, you need to define what remorse looks like to you and hold her accountable to that standard. Somethings (e.g. NC) are obviously non-negotiable.


Really? 

malicious - 'the intention to do harm'

I never get this. This is black and white 

You fk around outside your marriage, you commit adultery you therefore, as we all know, will harm your marriage (and the people inside it and the peripheral family)

Is that malicious enough.

Fk it (and sorry if it offends) but this is rugsweeping right there - it IS malicious

You start up an affair with a om / ow and you KNOW you are hurting/harming your marriage. You KNOW THIS before your lips even meet 

It's malicious it's full of harmful intent through selfishness and entitlement and you should not do it because of that very reason 

How is it not malicious?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

The correct response to her challenge on you now digging is

"Yes I will. That's what happens when trust dies because the other person willingly chose to betray you. All blind trust you once had because you knew the other person wouldn't ever do that, goes away and is replaced by the hard facts that they are very capable and willing to betray you. So, basically yes. I will be digging likely forever,"


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## goshjosh (Mar 23, 2013)

Headspin said:


> Really?
> 
> malicious - 'the intention to do harm'
> 
> ...


Look, I don't pretend to have any answers. My situation is pretty f'd up as it is and I am just trying to find meaning and understanding in all of this. :scratchhead: I think there are many flavors of A. In some cases, there may be malicious intent, but in some I think there is not. Maybe I am just rugsweeping as you say. Or maybe the WS is doing the rugsweeping during the A. Maybe I am in denial and making excuses. I think I am just trying to see the grey areas and find the nuances in someone else's actions. 

I find it hard to believe that all WS's says "I want to hurt BS, I want to do something on purpose that will harm them". I think some are just selfish and thinking for themselves. They don't think this will harm their M because they don't think they will ever get caught. In fact, they are not thinking about anything, just doing what feels good and filling whatever void needs to be filled. 

My original point was that remorse has many flavors. We all bring our own baggage when we post our advice here. I was just saying that OP needs to define remorse within the confines of his relationship. There are certain things that should not be compromised, but many things will have to be tailored to fit his situation.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

goshjosh said:


> Look, I don't pretend to have any answers. My situation is pretty f'd up as it is and I am just trying to find meaning and understanding in all of this. :scratchhead: I think there are many flavors of A. In some cases, there may be malicious intent, but in some I think there is not. Maybe I am just rugsweeping as you say. Or maybe the WS is doing the rugsweeping during the A. Maybe I am in denial and making excuses. I think I am just trying to see the grey areas and find the nuances in someone else's actions.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that all WS's says "I want to hurt BS, I want to do something on purpose that will harm them". I think some are just selfish and thinking for themselves. They don't think this will harm their M because they don't think they will ever get caught. In fact, they are not thinking about anything, just doing what feels good and filling whatever void needs to be filled.
> 
> My original point was that remorse has many flavors. We all bring our own baggage when we post our advice here. I was just saying that OP needs to define remorse within the confines of his relationship. There are certain things that should not be compromised, but many things will have to be tailored to fit his situation.


goshjosh, I completely get what you are saying and I get what everyone else is saying. It's already very tough and this no-man's land is even tougher. I certainly believe that while there are many obvious signs and characteristics re infidelity each relationship has it's own flavor based on each personality and the footprints made by each person through their lives and during the Rel, up to the day of discovery.

As far as remorse goes I think the same applies. I want / expect a higher degree of remorse but she can't / wont do it. Therefore I can only conclude that she has developed a "low" regard for me or what I thought was our relationship over time. Enough to feel so left out, as she claims, that she cheated. I tell her "you don't respect me" and she just flatly denies it.

This nightmare supposed Rec phase is tainted with a million questions. Things come back to you, you have to ask, you make the same point over and over, you ask the same questions over and over. You dig and pin them down, they claim you are way off beam, you are pressuring, you are dead wrong, you are threatening, you are even getting off on it.

Very little is resolved so it goes around and around in your head. The status quo remains. She is adamant that I must accept some responsibility for the affair because I let myself go and I created, over time, a situation where I did not like her and she did not feel welcome in her own home. She felt unloved and when the situation arose - a moment of weakness...(how many situations? Who knows? There is no evidence. Am I meant to ask every male she ever worked with if he f**ked my partner?)

Going on TAM gets me all fired up which is what happened yesterday morning. What a spoiled day even though the kids and I did get out in the "arvo" (afternoon - Aussie slang). 

Look the cards are all in her favor. She's in a position of power. I hate to say it but I am coming around to the realisation / feeling, as noted on numerous occasions by others, that there is nothing to save. I want to agree / believe what you say about empathy having levels but I can't deny the facts. It feels like this - from her POV it is all very inconvenient and emotionally uncomfortable.

The kids are on a school break, so is she, she is meant to be relaxing as much as parenting, I've got a full week of work (starting in 2 hours - it's 4.40 am!!!) - all one big hassle when she hasn't had a break in 12 months. All masking the fact that she has moved on from me. This reconciling has been little more than that clinging need when the boat has sailed. 

I feel like it is truly over but we have just not arrived at the point where we are going to do something about it. Last night I asked her to go and of course she said "no, you go". Well I'm not going anywhere either - yet.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

BS! There is nothing in her betrayal that is your fault. Period. If there were problems and issues in the marriage she had a lot of options aside from trolling for others for sex. That's w.h.o.r.e. talk.

Do yourself a big favor and kick her out.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> BS! There is nothing in her betrayal that is your fault. Period. If there were problems and issues in the marriage she had a lot of options aside from trolling for others for sex. That's w.h.o.r.e. talk.
> 
> Do yourself a big favor and kick her out.


Glad you said that tbpg. One of, if not the most frustrating, refrains from my partner is that I shut down, closed her out and...AND...that she tried so many times to tell me. That she categorically for the record tried to do something about it, about us..

"When exactly darling, what exactly did you say?"

"How dare you! How many times did I say to you about losing weight and you laughed it off with your line about it being OK for men - we don't have to do anything about our looks" (true - but as I have tried to explain to her. In my depression I was incapable of doing anything and this was my default reply. A defence mechanism joke. Because I was a sneak comfort eater. Stupid riposte by me but true)

What I say to her is that the fact is she never sat down and looked me in the eyes and said any number of things that could have been said. She is angry and shocked and accusatory when i tell her this but it is true. She forgets that most of the comments about my weight and other nasty remarks, on both sides, came during heated arguments.

If my partner had ever sat me down and said, for example she was leaving believe me she would have had my undivided attention. She can't face up to what she has done. She diverts from the truth. Seriously, am I deranged to expect that my partner might have read my e-mails and come back with some thoughts, something concrete? Of course, but she can't because she has nothing to offer me.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Rather, she took the easy way out. She looked for someone else.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Horizon said:


> Glad you said that tbpg. One of, if not the most frustrating, refrains from my partner is that I shut down, closed her out and...AND...that she tried so many times to tell me. That she categorically for the record tried to do something about it, about us..
> 
> "When exactly darling, what exactly did you say?"
> 
> ...


Trouble is when you look back under this current 'in your face' pressure you can't see everything the chronology the emotional context. However and this is the one good thing about 'time'. As it slowly moves it gives you clarity. Events timing things will pop into your head and you will arrive at the full and clear picture of what why and when.

That is when you will realize fully that it doesn't matter what you did or say, her agenda will smack you between the eyes and you'll understand that she was going to do this because she saw something arriving on her plate and thought "I'll have that" I know I shouldn't but I will anyway. She didn't need any reasons - but if there are any hanging around that get close to a cause, to blame you for, she'll take it and later on when pulled up use it.

That's why their excuses are so often laughable. The more ridiculous the excuses the deeper in the affair 'fog' they are.

You could say to her 'so if you were honest what you were really saying is that 'if you don't lose weight I will fk someone else. If you don't make me a nicer cup of tea I'll fk someone else. If you don't look after the kids next Sat morning I'll fk someone else.'

All of this = cheater code for - I want my cake and eat it and to hell with the consequences - to hell with you


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## carpenoctem (Jul 4, 2012)

Some reflections:

If the WW refuses to even discuss the details of her affair with the Betrayed Husband, or sees the BH’s attempts to discuss details as an attack on her, and if the BH still reconciles with her, what follows is *not reconciliation, but relinquishment. *Surrender.

I guess in some human situations, surrender also works out in the long run, as life’s logic evolves. *A lose-to-win strategy.*

(Not meant as an affront, please. Just an honest reflection).




QUOTE:
_“In fact, they are not thinking about anything, just doing what feels good and filling whatever void needs to be filled.”_ UNQUOTE

*Yes. In most cases, there is a name for that void. It also starts with 'V'.*

(Goshjosh, my brother, the sarcasm is not aimed at you, but the WS).




QUOTE: HORIZON:
_"Look the cards are all in her favor. She's in a position of power. I hate to say it but I am coming around to the realisation / feeling, as noted on numerous occasions by others, that there is nothing to save. I want to agree / believe what you say about empathy having levels but I can't deny the facts. It feels like this - from her POV it is all very inconvenient and emotionally uncomfortable."_ UNQUOTE


I agree. Sir. This is how I would read her thought process too:

You can continue as caretaker & eponymous husband for some more time, if you won't create too much hassle by asking too many questions and *creating revulsion in me by acting so wounded.* 

If you go, so be it. Big deal. I am in no way dependent on you.

But there is no way that you will push me into a corner, while I am the provider for this family. I am entitled to more than you, because I contribute more. Don’t like it? Don’t let the door hit your gluteus while on your way out.

If you stay, don't take too long to get over it, and *learn to pretend to be happy at least.*

By the way, I wonder when you will make up your mind – to either shut up and put up *without trying sooo hard to make me feel bad about myself, *or leave.




She may not throw you out, Sir. But it looks like she wants you to leave on your own.

*One cannot demand respect, Horizon. One has to command it. And in her eyes, you are in no position to command it.*

*Take revenge on her. In the future, emerge as Horizon 2.0 – with job, confidence, chutzpah.*

And by then, if you two are not together, go get a woman whose respect you *command.*


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## carpenoctem (Jul 4, 2012)

Acabado said:


> I don't sense false R.
> I don't believe she's deluded herself into this sugarcoating and downplaying she displays either.
> I believe she's gone, checked out so she can't fake be bothered for the marriage, empathetic to you. Her denials and minimizing is just the first line of defense becuase if she had to admit and face the real uglyness *she "knows" the natural, spontaneus response should be different but she doesn't find herself capable, willing to "fake" what she doesn't feel. *Pretending to care is too much work.
> That's why she acts "as if it's not a big deal", becasue for her "you are not a big deal", she's not into you. The marriage is dead for her.
> This or there's something structural, celular about her lack of empathy.



*QFT*


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Horizon said:


> "How dare you! How many times did I say to you about losing weight and you laughed it off with your line about it being OK for men - we don't have to do anything about our looks" (true - but as I have tried to explain to her. In my depression I was incapable of doing anything and this was my default reply. A defence mechanism joke. Because I was a sneak comfort eater. Stupid riposte by me but true)
> 
> What I say to her is that the fact is she never sat down and looked me in the eyes and said any number of things that could have been said. She is angry and shocked and accusatory when i tell her this but it is true. She forgets that most of the comments about my weight and other nasty remarks, on both sides, came during heated arguments.
> 
> If my partner had ever sat me down and said, for example she was leaving believe me she would have had my undivided attention. She can't face up to what she has done. She diverts from the truth. Seriously, am I deranged to expect that my partner might have read my e-mails and come back with some thoughts, something concrete? Of course, but she can't because she has nothing to offer me.


This is a common thread in such stories that I read. One partner feels they communicated issues, the other doesn't.

It was true of my wife and I when she had her affair.

Will she sit down with you and talk about the specifics of the emails? If she's not going to drive it you have to.


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## carpenoctem (Jul 4, 2012)

Headspin said:


> "what you were really saying is that 'if you don't lose weight I will fk someone else. If you don't make me a nicer cup of tea I'll fk someone else. If you don't look after the kids next Sat morning I'll fk someone else.'



^^
permit me an untimely laugh.




*PLEASE focus on yourself, instead of trying to wring a better wife out of her.*

i repeat what has been said ad nauseum in your other thread: try to be the best you can -- job, diet, exercise, meditation, prayer (if you are into it), positive self-image... ...

Take THIS weight off shoulder.
go to a gym and put some of THOSE weights on your shoulder.

Enough.

If any change should happen, *LET HER MAKE IT IF SHE DEEMS IT WORTHWHILE.*


Are you searching for a job, Horizon?
Perhaps you should focus ALL your energies for a while on THAT.

*Instead of asking questions, perhaps a menacing SILENCE could speak more to her.*

Anywhichway, she does not seem to care. So it seems.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

*carpenoctem*, I am going to argue against your post using my story. I have been in some ways where Horizon is and I am hoping my experiences may give him some ideas. Not saying I did everything right but I did manage to reconcile.



[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> Some reflections:
> If the WW refuses to even discuss the details of her affair with the Betrayed Husband, or sees the BH’s attempts to discuss details as an attack on her, and if the BH still reconciles with her, what follows is *not reconciliation, but relinquishment. *Surrender.
> 
> I guess in some human situations, surrender also works out in the long run, as life’s logic evolves. *A lose-to-win strategy.*
> ...


Not true in the case of my marriage. And probably not true generally.

Look there are people out there who feel no guilt at cheating, and what you wrote is maybe true for them. I don't know.

But my wife is ashamed of what she did. Very ashamed. Some people talk about problems like that, others don't. My wife doesn't. She puts her head down and resolves to do better. She doesn't talk about what she is ashamed of.

Now, when she did not immediately disclose, I could have said "that's it, I am out of here". Seems to be you are saying it is that or surrender. No, there is persistence. I kept pushing, kept working, and over time she learned the importance of talking more. Or, in other words, we improved our communication.

Because in our case, poor communication is one of the things that put us in the place where the affair happened. Similar to Horizon's situation....she thought she had told me there were problems, I had no idea. So there was this phase where she would say "But I told you.." and I would say "Huh?"

Also I don't think my wife is unusual in withholding details, out of shame or fear of my reaction. Otherwise, trickle truth would not be such a common problem for those of us who reconcile.

I understand the desire to beat up the wayward spouse for what they have done, but in my view it is a pointless exercise.

I can't agree with the TAM orthodoxy that says the betrayed spouse is entitled to fully vent their feelings and the wayward spouse has to become 100% remorseful. I think it runs contrary to human nature, and I think that working problems is more important than apportioning blame. TAM is big on apportioning blame.

Horizon, it doesn't excuse your wife's affair, but do you agree that there are things you should have done differently. And if she had come to you out of the blue, with no affair, but said "I am divorcing you. I'll be gone when you get home." would you have been any less devastated?




[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> QUOTE:
> _“In fact, they are not thinking about anything, just doing what feels good and filling whatever void needs to be filled.”_ UNQUOTE
> 
> *Yes. In most cases, there is a name for that void. It also starts with 'V'.*
> ...


Some affairs are about sex. Not all. It can be about emotional need. My wife's affair was about both. Though she would wince at that.



[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> QUOTE: HORIZON:
> _"Look the cards are all in her favor. She's in a position of power. I hate to say it but I am coming around to the realisation / feeling, as noted on numerous occasions by others, that there is nothing to save. I want to agree / believe what you say about empathy having levels but I can't deny the facts. It feels like this - from her POV it is all very inconvenient and emotionally uncomfortable."_ UNQUOTE
> 
> 
> ...


This is maybe true, but it is just painting the spouse with a very broad brush. There has obviously been some stress in this family, and there are issues to be dealt with. It may be they can be dealt with. It may be that what once was can be recovered.

It may be that the communication is so bad now because it was not all that good before the affair. The problems now might just be amplification of problems that existed before.

Because here is a truth. Once you raise a family as a couple, have all the experiences of doing that, you have an experience that you can only ever have once. I have thirty years invested in my marriage, and if I walk away from it I cannot just find someone else and have the same thing. And this is true for her as well.

At the same time, many people do get to this age and decide to walk, but maybe they could have worked on their problems instead.

And maybe that can still happen.




[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> She may not throw you out, Sir. But it looks like she wants you to leave on your own.
> 
> *One cannot demand respect, Horizon. One has to command it. And in her eyes, you are in no position to command it.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

What's she supposed to say? She can't make the affair unhappen.

That said, I agree with the need to build Horizon 2.0 absolutely. You have to be self sufficient. One of the features of my post affair marriage is I am here because I want to be. I originally stayed for the kids but my work there is done, they are adults. I could leave. Every major decision in life is now taken on the assumption that my marriage may fall apart. Not because I obsess about that, but because it is a fact of life. It is possible to accept that fact and have a great marriage. In fact, the marriage is enormously better when you don't take it for granted!


Hope this all makes sense. And Horizon....don't look for a magic bullet. There isn't one. Don't try to erase the hurt. You can't. Don't try to have 100% trust as once you did. It's gone.

But if you work on you, it positions you to survive and prosper. And if you and your wife both want to work on the relationship, it can be amazingly good.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Horizon said:


> goshjosh, I completely get what you are saying and I get what everyone else is saying. It's already very tough and this no-man's land is even tougher. I certainly believe that while there are many obvious signs and characteristics re infidelity each relationship has it's own flavor based on each personality and the footprints made by each person through their lives and during the Rel, up to the day of discovery.
> 
> As far as remorse goes I think the same applies. I want / expect a higher degree of remorse but she can't / wont do it. Therefore I can only conclude that *she has developed a "low" regard for me* or what I thought was our relationship over time. Enough to feel so left out, as she claims, that she cheated. I tell her "you don't respect me" and she just flatly denies it.
> 
> ...


This and the fact when OM came into the picture he lowered your status in her eyes even further. It's hard to feign respect for someone you have near enough contempt for, so her actions no matter how twisted seem justified to her.

You lost her respect a long time ago, now she feels she doesn't have to answer to you because of your low status in her eyes. Her words may say I do respect you and I do want to make this work but actions are always the loudest..over time the effort you put into faking it just because you want to rug sweep becomes a burden and if you're truly selfish and it is all about you, you drop the charade pretty quickly.


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## carpenoctem (Jul 4, 2012)

*Wazza:*

Hello.

I agree with almost everything you said. Thank you for taking the time.

Presumably, there is no Black & White about Infidelity. Or life.



A few reflections on your post:

Post D-Day, you stayed in the marriage only for the children (without making her any more ashamed of herself through discussing her affair). As years passed, your relationship was revived slowly through communication. Right?

(If I recollect correctly from some of your posts in other threads, this – revival of good communication – began only AFTER 10-plus years of your continuing in the marriage).

(Did I recollect that wrongly?)

Now, if the Chief of Hamas and the Prime Minister or Israel are made to share a home for 10 years, they are also very likely to end up as friends or even business partners – if they don’t kill each other in the first few weeks, i.e.

*I wager that in your case, it was basically the alchemy of time that worked its magic* (no less credit to her for not repeating the offense, and you for not reiterating the offense _ad infinitum_ to her, or really having a revenge affair).

*You two began communicating again, at a point where you COULD communicate to her without being too accusatory / angry, and she COULD communicate to you without feeling toxic shame. When Time had already blunted the edges of anger and shame.*

The important thing is: it worked out better.




*Vis a vis 'TAM orthodoxy apportioning blame':*

Suppose we look at it this way: *Basically, they are apportioning the quantum of devastation, on the reasonable presumption that the Betrayed is far more devastated than the Wayward. *Suppose that is what translates into apportioning of blame in favour of the Betrayed?

On a moral scale also, more blame (if there should be blame at all, for infidelity) would logically fall on the Wayward in most cases, undoubtedly. Whether leaning on that is pragmatic for reconciliation or not.




Your wife’s remorse was genuine. You were fortunate.

Your patience and empathy were rewarded. A near-miracle in today’s world.

I can’t tell you how refreshing it is in these times to hear someone say he is happy in his marriage. I can’t remember when was the last time someone told me that in person.

*Glad to hear those three words (We Are Happy), Wazza.*

God bless you (your wife has already been blessed with you, I guess).



Note:
Horizon’s wife seems to be DISMISSIVE / DERISIVE of his trauma (though passively so). That could very well be a self-defense mechanism projected as offensive. But she is ABLE to project it that way probably ONLY BECAUSE he is dependent on her financially.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> *Wazza:*
> 
> Hello.
> 
> ...


Hey *carpenoctem*, communication is a work in progress. There wasn't a magic ten year figure. It was just one step at a time. Communication started with basic practicalities of parenthood, slowly moved to friendship, then to more closeness, and a gradual evolution of increasing intimacy. There are still some issues, there probably always will be.

Immediately after the affair there was a lot of "communication", and she kept lying and trickle truthing. I played the same game as Horizon (just read your other thread H!), gathering facts, measuring her words against them, and finding them wanting. In the end I gave up on the details of the affair.

At the ten year mark we had long reached the stage that we could look each other in the eye and admit the things we were unhappy with in the marriage and each other in a civil and constructive way. So in a sense it was nowhere near ten years....but then the most recent major overhaul of communication was earlier this year, in discussions sparked by some of the things I learned on TAM. So it's very hard for me to put a number on things.

Yes, my wife's remorse was genuine. But I could only know that after the fact. On Horizon's other thread, everyone says his wife is not remorseful. I don't see why. Certainly it is a possibility, but I do not agree it is a slam dunk. I don't know enough to have an opinion either way.

It's a risk to take your wife back after she cheats, but then it's a risk to take a wife in the first place. Who in their right mind would do it? As for taking them back, is it more risk because she is a proven cheat, or is it less risk because hopefully she has learned from it and will be more guarded next time? You can guess at the answer to that based on the character of your wife....but then, how good is your judgement? Who ever takes a wife expecting her to cheat?

It's a bloody mess, and you can only do your best. And make sure you are able to stand on your own two feet, because you have to be able to.


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## carpenoctem (Jul 4, 2012)

True, Wazza.

Glad it worked out for you. Best of luck.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

*@carpenoctem*
So Well Written


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## carpenoctem (Jul 4, 2012)

thank you, 55.

*have a different day today.*


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