# I am very tired....



## richardwagner (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm a newbie here and I guess I just need to vent and get some opinions. My wife and I have been married for over 17 years. We have 2 teenage daughters. Our relationship has always been somewhat volitile, but we have always worked through things. In the past few years, my wife and I have basically fallen apart. I do not spendinding time with her. She can be physical with the kids and relentless in arguments with me. I am more of a person that feels that highly charged emotional arguments are useless and that they only drive me away from her.

I have always been the breadwinner. She has worked part time on and off during our marriage, but never earned even 5% of what I did. Earn in the top 2% nationally, but my wife wants us to be able to keep up with the Jones' and that is not important to me. For years and years, we have refinanced and otherwise tried to keep up with her debt acquisition that way. Now we have reached the end. 

Despite the fact that she only works about 15 hours a week, she feels that we need to split the housework equally. During the school year, I take the kids to school at 6:45 am and return with them after their activities at around 7:30. I make dinner as often (if not more than she does), do the dishes and laundry as much as she does and pay to have the house cleaned 2 times a month. In her eyes, I don't earn enough, don't help enough and don't give her emotional support. 

When she argues, she berates me and repeats herself over and over. In her eyes, she is supposed be the most important thing in my life. I don't have the desire or the energy to give her what she wants. SHe will not hear of cutting her spending. I wonder if it is a passive aggressive response to her feeling that I do not take care of her emotionally. I love her, but am not in love with her. I do not enjoy spending time with her. She is paranoid that everyone hates her, her family is a mess (alcoholism, codependency, suicide, manipuplation). 

We have gone to one joint therapy session and have individual sessions in the next few days. I am not convinced that this will help. In my non-professional opinion, she is depressed. She refuses to acknowledge that she has a problem and will not consider meds. 

Any replies would be appreciated. Let me know if you have questions.


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## outkast44 (Sep 26, 2008)

This has some similarities as to what i'm going through as well, she's probably depressed, and this is a great "sounding board" for your feelings! My wife has depression and i'm in the early stages of trying to get her to go back to the doctor.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

Sounds like you are going to have to emotionally remove yourself from her. You aren't responsible for her emotional well-being. 

If she comes at you about the housework, let her know what you will do and leave it at that. If she starts to go irate, just tell her you're sorry she feels that way and then leave if she escalates. You dont have to stand there and allow her to verbally, or emotionally, abuse you. 

Set up a time, once a week or so, where she is allowed to come to you with her concerns (set a time limit also). In that time try to listen to her emotional concerns and not become defensive. try to empathize with what she is feeling, apart from what she is saying. Try not to become defensive. she doesnt have to be wrong for you to be right. its just what she's feeling. There is nothing wrong with emotionally charged arguments. It might not do you any good, but it might help her. as long as she doenst become verbally abusive, then try to listen to her. its not always about helping you.

If she starts to escalate (i.e verbally abusive), just leave. Let her know when she can talk to you respectfully you'll talk to her again.

if you have concerns, set up another meeting once a week for her to sit and listen to you. Write down your goals for the meeting so you dont get off track. If you start to argue, look at your goals and see if your argument is helping to reach your goal. This way both of you feel you are being heard. 

You arent responsible for her happiness. and she is not responsible for yours. You both need to work on your boundaries and becoming free from the other. It takes a lot of work but its worth it.


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## richardwagner (Sep 29, 2008)

I have been trying for several years to have her get help. She feels that it is eveyone around her that does not respect her her or see how hard she works. Her father has always said do what ever it takes to "keep Mother happy. Sure, he would run off to the golf course, my MIL would crawl into a bottle and all would be fine.

Continue vent:

I get up at 6, wake up my daughters and take them to school. Work. Pick up the girls. Get home at 7:30, help the girls make their lunches, usually make dinner, usually have to do the dishes, make the coffee for the morning. Collapse at 9pm. Wife, who has had such a hard day, doing God knows what, will complain if I want to watch something on TV or if I just go to bed because "I don't want to spend time with her." On Friday nights, I am too exhausted to go out, but she whines because I don't want to do anything with her. Saturday, cut the lawn, drive the kids around. Sunday, catch up on laundry that she couldn't do. 

God forbid that I mention the spending! She has no regard for the difference between wants and needs. She does not consider what happens when credit card bills mount. 

Maybe I have shut off emotionally...it is all I can do not to leave. I have no attraction to her. I am tired and pissed!


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## AZMOMOFTWO (Jun 30, 2008)

It sounds like you have reached the end and may not want to save it. You said you are not in love with her and want to leave. Try to think about what this would be like realistically. Does it make you happy? If so, then it may simply be time to end it. Don't drag it out that is more harmful. 

Now if you have an inkling you wish to save it (not for the kids, that never works but I mean save it because you want to be married to her) you need to both learn to practice listening to each other. 

As for the list of chores, it sounds like you are doing just about everything. How about you make a list of all the things that you do, and have her do the same. Now look at it together and let her know how there is no time to spend together or on things you might want to do. Ask her how she thinks that can be changed so you can share time together. Don't tell her how little she does, have her make her own list. Listen to her. 

The debt same thing. There is a book called "Your Money or Your Life" I recommend. Maybe you can get her to read it. Very practical advice. Together come up with a budget. Its not like you want to tell her every cent that she can/cannot spend but she needs to be responsible and operate within your means. Have her be part of the budgeting process.

You do need the counseling so continue to go, if both are committed then these things can be worked out.

Also take her out on a date, forget the problems and focus on enjoying each other. No talk of finances, job, chores, etc. just have fun.


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## TheLoveGuru's (Sep 29, 2008)

Hi Richard.

It sounds as if you are already working very hard to keep her happy. The first problem is the fact that she is not the most important thing in your life. You seem to want this to work. If you do, why not try to see if there is a way to move her to that spot? With as many years as the two of you have put into this, wouldnt it be better if there was that love again? 

When the two of you argue, do you listen or walk away? Try to begin to listen and give feedback. There is no need for arguments on both sides (we understand the uselessness of it) but, feedback is necessary in order to show her that you have taken what she has to say into consideration. She wants to know you are listening. She wants to feel loved. We all do. 

As for the housework, and the other duties, are you ok with it? If these are things that you feel you shouldnt do, have you communicated your feelings to her? If so, what is her reaction? 

If you weren't doing these things, what other things could you, or would you be doing? Communicate the need to have the time to do these things. If there isn't anything more important, then how about suggesting the two of you do the chores together? 

Being in a relationship in which there is no love from either end is like living in hell. Shes trying to fight her way out. 

Tita & Tibu


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## TheLoveGuru's (Sep 29, 2008)

richardwagner said:


> I have been trying for several years to have her get help. She feels that it is eveyone around her that does not respect her her or see how hard she works. Her father has always said do what ever it takes to "keep Mother happy. Sure, he would run off to the golf course, my MIL would crawl into a bottle and all would be fine.
> 
> Continue vent:
> 
> ...


Find out what she's doing! Become once again her lover Richard. If you show you care, it will be reciprocated. Why waste the rest of this life together if the two of you arent happy? This can be changed. You two can become once again what you were.


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## butazez (Aug 19, 2008)

OK. I'll be the devil's advocate on this one. Imagine Richard is the bread-winning wife, and re-read the original post in reverse. How would you advice "her?"

Now, for my advice...

I would sit her down and calmly tell her that what she's doing/acting is selfish and disrespectful. If she becomes defensive, then I'll postpone and continue when she can actually listen. I will give her an ultimatum. I will take her credit cards. I do not care if she wails. She's been doing all the "taking" and not the giving.

I will tell her exactly what you wrote. I love you, but you either need help or a good smack of reality. If she can't recognize that she has a problem and it's causing you pain, then you will need to show her the reality that you can actually move on without her.

Don't say it to be mean. Say it like you don't have a choice. If you keep taking all these in, you will eventually move from not loving her to "hating" her, which you probably don't want to be.


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## sixtieschic (Sep 27, 2008)

I'm sure no expert, but I am a woman and I can already feel HER pain in what you wrote. You love her, but you're not in love with her, you don't enjoy spending time with her, she spends all your money, you do all the work, her family's crazy, etc. etc. Don't you have any faults? 

I think you should be honest with her, and yourself, and tell her you don't love her (which is probably what this is really all about). A couple shouldn't stay together for kids. Kids adjust to a separation. They don't adjust to two people who don't like each other. I think you owe it to her and your kids to be honest about your feelings.


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## richardwagner (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks for all of your input. It gives me a lot to consider and some good talking points.

At least one of you asked if I felt I had no faults. Maybe I did not come right out and give you a list of my faults, but I do know that I have issues too. I am doing the best that I can in a shi**y situation. I have withdrawn from her physically and emotionally over time. 

I am not, however, an otherwise bad husband, father or provider. I do not gamble, drink (to excess), abuse drugs or chase women.


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## Honey (Sep 2, 2008)

OMG ! You help her cook, clean and run the kids places, and she's still not happy !!  Tell her..do you know how may husbands that won't even take out the trash, muchless take the kids to school? Don't you know how many wives would like and appreciate a man like me? Most take their wife for granted, and think because they work, they don't have to help when they get home.. not even to take the trash out.


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## richardwagner (Sep 29, 2008)

Honey said:


> OMG ! You help her cook, clean and run the kids places, and she's still not happy !!  Tell her..do you know how may husbands that won't even take out the trash, muchless take the kids to school? Don't you know how many wives would like and appreciate a man like me? Most take their wife for granted, and think because they work, they don't have to help when they get home.. not even to take the trash out.


Honey...maybe you should be my advocate. I have tried that. It doesn't seem to register beyond her own "needs." 


Tomorrow I have my solo meeting with the marital therapist. She Who Must Be Obeyed had her's yesterday. Together on Thursday. We'll see how that goes.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

richardwagner said:


> She Who Must Be Obeyed had her's yesterday.


:lol:


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## Honey (Sep 2, 2008)

richardwagner said:


> Honey...maybe you should be my advocate. I have tried that. It doesn't seem to register beyond her own "needs."
> 
> 
> Tomorrow I have my solo meeting with the marital therapist. She Who Must Be Obeyed had her's yesterday. Together on Thursday. We'll see how that goes.


Good luck !


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## Honey (Sep 2, 2008)

ljtseng said:


> :lol:


Yeah, that was kinda funny, wasn't it?


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## richardwagner (Sep 29, 2008)

Had my solo meeting with the marital therapist yesterday. It was vey helpful to talk to someone without an agenda and who has now heardd both sides of the story.

in an hour, we have our second joint session with her. I am really fearful of how this is going to go.


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## FrenchMomma (Sep 23, 2008)

I'm kinda there with you... Not in therapy though...definatly need to be...good luck. Tell us how it goes!


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## dcrim (Oct 1, 2008)

I can't offer anything beyond what's already been said. My wife (of almost 20 years) also ran up a large debt with cards. Penultimately it cost me my (then) IRA to get out of it all. Ultimately we separated and then divorced (one teen left at home by that time). After all of that - she had a bbq on the patio and burned down the house (after not paying the insurance bill for almost a year! She played bingo all the time...sheesh...). I had to file bankruptcy after that. We had grown apart emotionally, too, long before we separated. I'm happier, personally, with $13/hr vs the $40 I used to make; I have more money in my pocket. I also have a better GF who is used to taking care of herself and loves anything I do to help (and I do all that I can - right now she's selling her house and I've been helping fix it up). I hate to make it sound scary, but in MY experience you should run now.


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## richardwagner (Sep 29, 2008)

OK...I'll set the stage for you. I arrived from work 5 minutes early. She Who Must Be Obeyed (hereinafter referred to as "SWMBO") arrived, coming from from home, 10 minutes late. I was filling in the therapist on the latest disruptive antics of our elder daughter. SWMBO gave her thoughts on on the subject. As the therapist is rying to make some recommendations, SWMBO continually cuts her off. Therapist is getting flustered. I break in, in a frustrated tone, "Let her talk!" SWMBO gets quiet and visible pissed. As soon as the therapist ends, I immediately apologize for interrupting the interruption. SWMBO tells us both that I am not sorry. Therapist then asks her how I should have handled it, tells her that i was not using an inappropriate tone and asks her if it would have been better if I had not said anything. SWMBO basically ranted for the rest of the hour about how she is persecuted, how she is emotionally abused "by everybody" and how she is the aggrieved one.

Rather than another dual session, the therapist decided to have another one with her alone before our next dual. SWMBO goes on Mon and we both go on Tues.
Should make for one hell of a weekend. 

In anyone's experience, will the therapist tell her that she is basically cutting off her nose to spite her face and that she is pushing me away? I know that my wife needs help (and that is the only reason I am not already gone), but, in the words of Jeff "THe DUde" Lebowski, "This aggression will not stand, man!"


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

I haven't been in marriage counseling but briefly in individual. In my case I can't recall her ever telling me that I should be doing this or that or that my actions are causing this or that. She took more the direction of asking short questions and listening to my response, and basically gave me different ways to look at things. 

I think the fact that she wants to see your wife alone again is telling. If she comes down hard on your wife, she will probably not like this counselor and not want to return, so hopefully she will let your wife vent and gently introduce some ideas to help her feel less defensive.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

There is one way I know that helps with *mildly *aggressive or spiky women. That is to use humour and flirting to defuse them. I have no idea if it will work on a SWMBO type, but I am braver than I used to be!

But I have found it can work in an instant when my wife is ahem, nearing the end of the month. In fact I have found I can get away with some really crude suggestions! and she seems to thrive on it. I never used to be cheeky, I learnt it from another guy on a different forum, boy has it changed my life. 

If humour is missing from your relationship, GET SOME. Get some comedy DVDs too.


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## Anon654 (Oct 2, 2008)

This sounds very similar to my situation too, although married for less time and no kids.




AZMOMOFTWO said:


> The debt same thing. There is a book called "Your Money or Your Life" I recommend. Maybe you can get her to read it. Very practical advice. Together come up with a budget. Its not like you want to tell her every cent that she can/cannot spend but she needs to be responsible and operate within your means. Have her be part of the budgeting process.


In my situation, she refuses to read anything. I know of several self-help books that I would love for her to read, but she will have nothing of it. Hell, I can't even get her to read the magazines that she wanted to get. Maybe a cosmo once in a while, but the others just pile up.


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## richardwagner (Sep 29, 2008)

Wonders never cease:smthumbup:...an update.

So when I got home last night, the dinner was made, the kitchen was clean. I was complimentary about the state of things and we did not have a tense word between us. We stuck to getting thru the night and figuring out how to handle the weeknd chores and the pick up drop off for the kids.

Hopefully, this will allow us to work at the root problems in a positive manner going forward.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

Wow. Maybe it's the counselor who now needs to be obeyed! This is probably not an easy switch in behavior for her so keep coming with the positive reinforcement and compliments...maybe some flowers for the kitchen table since the rest of the kitchen looks so nice  She will soon see that it's actually easier living this way, but old habits die hard so don't throw in the towel if she slips...keep going back to the good stuff 

Good Luck!


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## richardwagner (Sep 29, 2008)

Had another session with the therapist and SWMBO today. As usual, SWMBO was late. That allowed us the chance to talk a bit more about moving forward. I think the therapist now sees what I am dealing with at home.

She scheduled another one on one w/ SWMBO and then another joint session. I can see that SWMBO is getting frustrated because she spends most of time talking and *****ing about me and the therapist keeps questioning her assumptions and conclusions about what I am thinking and what my instincts are whenever I get a word in edgewise.

It is helpful to me to have someone else interpret what I say using common sense and not interpreting something that is not there.


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