# What would a kinder gentler TAM look like?



## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

Many people here(even some mods) have bemoaned what they describe as an overly harsh or abusive tone towards current and former wayward spouses(specifically women). I don't doubt that this does happen from time to time. Granted I don't believe it happens as frequently as some claim it does, although perhaps by the time I read the threads on CWI the mods have already brought in their hazmat crews. The fact is some argue that posters are being run off by betrayed spouses or others being too vicious to wayward spouses and that this place needs to be more "open" to them.

Now to be completely frank, I must confess that oftentimes when I hear this point made the first thing that pops into my mind is the OM/OW forums on another message board I'll just call "LS" since I'm not certain if I'm allowed to mention a "rival" forum here. For those who have never been there, that place is best described as a "moral black hole" IMO. It's a sub forum where people give each other tips about how to hide affairs from their spouses and how there isn't anything wrong with what they're doing to the person they have pledged their hearts and lives before GOD and their families to. In the rare case where they do acknowledge the wrongness of the affair there is generally a plethora of blame shifting that seems to go pretty much unchallenged over there.

Just as an example of the overall environment there, not even just that particular sub forum but even simply reading any given thread having to do with betrayal at all is like walking through a portal into "opposite world".:scratchhead: I've seen multiple threads where a spouse(usually the husband) went into the marriage believing they were both virgins and later found out their wife was lying to them all along and has had several partners and in some cases even pornos made with previous partners. And yet somehow beyond comprehension, the victim of this treachery is the one tarred and feathered and labeled unforgiving and judgmental for not sitting back and taking their spouse's years of lies and deceptions with a coke and a smile. This type of "black is white" moral relativism repulses me.

I think that might be close to what many people here imagine in their heads what is actually being requested for CWI when the topic is brought up. A place where nobody is ever called out for their blame shifting and deceptive ways(no 2x4's allowed) and everybody just kind of doing the "live and let live" thing. However having interacted with some of you who are in the wayward "camp" and believing that many of you here are earnestly remorseful and would likely not want that type of environment here any more than what is already the norm. (Throwing the baby out with the bathwater comes to mind.) I thought maybe some of you could possibly describe in greater detail what it is you envision could be done to make this site more "accepting" without being "excusing" if that makes any sense.


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

I've been here a while now, if there is one way I can relate to TAM is the fact that there is a certain "realness" to the main stay of posters.

I also feel that TAM is the more "ADULT" orientated site where although we may "call out" one another we also for the most part maintain civility, (so says he who got banned a couple of months back ).

I read a few other forums and all I can say is that there is a lot of deluded people out there and a lot of clueless and often uninformed advice given from well meaning but inexperienced posters, often those posters are OMs/OWs who have their own agendas.

I wish them all as much Karma as the bus can deliver.

TAM = REAL WORLD the reast are just fake it until they make it.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Here's my addition to this topic--which by the way I think is a good one! 

I know the place "LS" of which you speak, and I'm with you--that place is a moral sinkhole! I would *never *want something like that here at TAM! I actually admire that, for the most part, people here will tell you the real truth. I think that is so very necessary!

But I also have seen several instances where someone comes here and says something like "I'm having an affair and sort of regret it. What do I do?" Now, that person may be a troll...but that could also be someone who's clearly not thinking straight but one little piece of their mind still is and they are reaching out for help to fix the mess they've made. I think what they need is someone to say "Okay, you CAN stop and you should. It's the right thing to do. Here's where your thought process is flawed. Here's the reality. Now be brave and do the right thing. I'll be here to help ya get through it." See, chances are about 100% that this Disloyal person has surrounded themselves with people who are saying "You deserve it" "Do what feels good" "or "Your kids will be fine"--you know, toxic friends who are bitter old divorced harpies! LOL They need SOMEONE who doesn't encourage them to do the bad stuff! 

Also I think Disloyals come in here and what is "the truth" to them is that they have convinced themselves that they tried for X years to get their spouse to give a sh*t and/or pay attention and the spouse didn't care...so they went off and had their fling. That is their justification speaking but that is what "true" to them in the moment, yet if someone actually speaks that, and then they get SLAMMED for saying it, what they learn is "Well I can't tell the truth to those guys. I just get hurt." What I'd love to see is a place where they could come and say their messed up truth, and the response would be, "Okay I see that may be how you view it, and I respect your right to have a different view than me. However, are you aware that HERE, HERE, HERE and HERE there are flaws in your view and the reality might actually be THIS?" See that will get them thinking rather than just screaming and driving them away. Get 'em to THINK and encourage them to do RIGHT. 

One of the things we often teach people here is for their spouse needs to be transparent, but the fact is that no one will be transparent and show their true face if letting other people see results in verbal abuse. If you showed your spouse your real thoughts and feelings and they cut you down every time, eventually you learn to never reveal what you really think and feel because you get hurt. Likewise if your spouse shows you their real thoughts and feelings, EVEN IF WHAT THEY SAY HURTS...at least they were honest and is something honorable. You can build on honesty and work with it. So if your spouse shows you their real thoughts and feelings, it's wisdom to teach them that they are SAFE being honest (by not cutting 'em off at the knees). 

Now...the real problem I see is that this CWI forum is probably 97% Loyal Spouses. The target audience is people whose spouse has cheated...and that's the big majority of who we help here. I have not figured out yet how to realistically work out a "kinder, gentler" TAM. There just is no way to regulate how people respond or what they say nor would I want that! Thus (shrug) I'm stuck.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

The real problem arises when a minority of posters on TAM mistake every other wayward wife on TAM for their own wayward wife. And attacks them on that basis.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

I used to mod a rival board and tam is a gentler place. I would also agree that some betrayers get a rough going over from time to time, but this is a raw subject and many here have had their lives deeply traumatized and impacted by betrayers. So to me it's a betrayers beware type of thing. I do enjoy having some around as it brings some needed balance and perspective. 

To me a bigger issue are trolls. I have been on message boards since the very beginning and even started the very first one in SE Asia. I am very active currently on 4 major and a few private ones so I know a troll eventually. Or at least I have a pretty strong sense of them. But I either play along or just drop out of the thread when it becomes obvious. But they stir things up more so than the betrayers.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Nostromo said:


> Many people here(even some mods) have bemoaned what they describe as an overly harsh or abusive tone towards current and former wayward spouses(specifically women). I don't doubt that this does happen from time to time. Granted I don't believe it happens as frequently as some claim it does, although perhaps by the time I read the threads on CWI the mods have already brought in their hazmat crews. The fact is some argue that posters are being run off by betrayed spouses or others being too vicious to wayward spouses and that this place needs to be more "open" to them.
> 
> Now to be completely frank, I must confess that oftentimes when I hear this point made the first thing that pops into my mind is the OM/OW forums on another message board I'll just call "LS" since I'm not certain if I'm allowed to mention a "rival" forum here. For those who have never been there, that place is best described as a "moral black hole" IMO. It's a sub forum where people give each other tips about how to hide affairs from their spouses and how there isn't anything wrong with what they're doing to the person they have pledged their hearts and lives before GOD and their families to. In the rare case where they do acknowledge the wrongness of the affair there is generally a plethora of blame shifting that seems to go pretty much unchallenged over there.
> 
> ...


What would be the value add for TAM if it was like another forum. It is already plenty PC IMO. 

Tough Love. LS is a lesser forum albeit more general. For kids maybe.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

It's not just the waywards who may not find it kind and gentle.

Betrayed men are often encouraged to read about and embrace the man as "leader of the family" idea, and there's a LOT of talk about that here. 

Try to imagine how a recently betrayed woman might feel about viewing the husband who's just cheated on her as the "leader" of her family. Some leadership HE'S just shown!

If she's never even considered this concept of family living (and many people haven't, because it's a comparatively conservative idea, also tending to be favored by people with a more religious background), it's pretty off-putting. (If her family already did live with that sort of arrangement, it might not be too annoying.)

But many people here don't realize that the idea of the man as leader of the family is actually controversial, it's not universally accepted as the "right" way to operate a family, and the gung-ho "husband as leader" attitude that's pervasive around here may be just too much for some recently betrayed women - so they might not bother to stick around. To assume that women all talk to their friends and don't need to seek support online (an explanation I've read here before) doesn't necessarily explain the relatively small number of betrayed women who post here.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Most WSs need to hear sincere reactions from BSs.

Kinder Gentler TAM = Watered down PC responses.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

For me the bottom line is respect. We can agree to disagree...without name calling or being cruel.

I have had conversations with folks that treated me with kindness and respect...and I have had conversations here with abusive,rude, combative jerks.

Guess which ones deserve respect from me?

You do not have to like me..you can ask me questions...I will share my deepest ugliest parts....but don't try to change my story and don't put words in my mouth. Accept my story and my opinion the way I present it. You don't have to agree...but give me the courtesy to tell you my side...and don't crucify me....i do a really good job doing that to myself....and remember...I owe you nothing. I do this to try to help.i don't need you to fix me. My marriage is strong, my husband and I are happy.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

*Re: Re: What would a kinder gentler TAM look like?*



MattMatt said:


> The real problem arises when a minority of posters on TAM mistake every other wayward wife on TAM for their own wayward wife. And attacks them on that basis.


That is anger projection. It comes from people who are still hurting. It eventually fades with time and healing. In the early days after DDay, I too was wrongly projecting my anger because I was triggering from what some former waywards were saying (not in this forum).


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Lm...I understand that...and I feel badly for folks who are suffering. We just need to remember..I am a bad guy..but I am not *your* bad guy....


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I can only speak for myself, but when a WS comes on board and shows true remorse and sorrow for what they have done, and if they take full responsibility and own their cheating and not blame their bad choices on the BS or the state of the marriage, then I do my best to give them the benefit of the doubt. I would say that most of us who have been here for a long time are the same way towards repentant waywards.. 

It's when we have a blameshifting WS who is unable to own his or her own bad decision making that I get my hackles up. And I admit I have started off as an ass to some exWSs who have come on here, but over time we have managed to mend fences and be amicable. You know who you are.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

*Re: Re: What would a kinder gentler TAM look like?*



Mrs. John Adams said:


> Lm...I understand that...and I feel badly for folks who are suffering. We just need to remember..I am a bad guy..but I am not *your* bad guy....


Well said. And its people like you that give people hope.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Lm...I understand that...and I feel badly for folks who are suffering. We just need to remember..I am a bad guy..but I am not *your* bad guy....


Very true. 

Still.... it would be nice for all of us to hear the President's and First Lady's story one day.....in its entirety.....


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

hopefulgirl said:


> It's not just the waywards who may not find it kind and gentle.
> 
> Betrayed men are often encouraged to read about and embrace the man as "leader of the family" idea, and there's a LOT of talk about that here.
> 
> ...


I think the reason more men post here is because men are more exrernal about this stuff than women. Women tend to deal diffently with betrayal than guys.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

I know that I've been guilty of being to harsh here on a WS from time to time. I've even apologized to a few afterwards.

I also know that TAM is a better place when we have WS's posting here. I don't always agree with, or even liked what they had posted, but I appreciate that they would risk the backlash and post anyway.

Case in point would be Regret. She sometimes posted things that I didn't like, or agreed with. But it's a view into the "other side" of the story. She got bashed quite a few times, even when it was a BS looking for FWW's opinions.

Now she's gone. She had had enough. I can't say that I blame her. But I will say that her and her contributions will be missed.

Yes. I'm a former BS. Yes, I sometimes cringe when I'm reading what a WS/FWS had written. But it's a glance at the "other side", given by a person that was there.

If you want to learn about sailing sailboats, you ask someone that's sailed a sailboat. Sometimes you just have to here it from the source.

And if you're reading this Regret, I hope that someday you'll be able to come back here and post again.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> It's when we have a blameshifting WS who is unable to own his or her own bad decision making that I get my hackles up. And I admit I have started off as an ass to some exWSs who have come on here, but over time we have managed to mend fences and be amicable. * You know who you are.*


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

I have definitely been offended here in the past, but I ONLY took it that way because of the warped perception of the situation I was in.

With the benefit of hindsight, the vast majority of critics on the site were very much right about what had happened, what was happening and what was going to happen.

So, whilst I think we need to mindful of people's feelings and try to be constructive wherever possible, sometimes we just need to be TOLD BLUNTLY exactly how it is. It is the only thing that snapped me out of the situation as quickly as it did.

Now, having said all that, I found posters who actually took the time EXPLAIN their stance the most helpful (why for example the WW was behaving the way she was). Blunt instruction can too easily be taken offensively.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

The shift in attitude here has been incredible and very puzzling. I've spent quite a bit of time thinking and discussing this topic, and while there is no one size fits all answer to the question raised by the OP, I present the following for consideration:

1. The constant erosion of moderate and balanced voices and opinions, primarily caused by the process of healing and moving forward, left a void here. There are very few people left here that are around just to try and help others heal, the ones that got the help they needed, rebuilt a stronger relationship, and healed from the damage, dropped this place like a hot rock, because continued long term exposure to the anger, hatred, and toxicity present here is unbearable, counter productive and really depressing.

2. The well adjusted, rational, empathetic voices that are still here are drowned out ten fold by the voices that express opinions based on normalizing negative emotion, internalizing a sense of being a "victim" and the release of those emotions through personal attacks veiled as "tough love" or "2x4ing." I feel really bad for these individuals, because of how blind they are to the behavior they are engaged in. 

The pain they felt when they were betrayed, became the status quo for their day to day existence, and the only way to nurture those emotions is by constantly reliving them by proxy through the never ending supply of people seeking to cope with infidelity that post here on a daily basis. 

3. Like attracts like. As time passes, the groups of people who have normalized negative emotion, eventually find one another, and begin to feed each other through self referential circular reasoning. They begin to support one another in the threads they post in and make it seems as if their misguided opinions are the norm, and people who deviate from those opinions are often picked on, until they no longer feel like contributing.

4. Lack of leadership from above. I dont know if the sale of TAM 3-4 years ago contributed in any way to the "absentee land lord" situation when it comes to moderating the comments. Mods are very rarely heard from, and when they are, they tend to make sweeping changes to threads, deleting the hostile posts, AND the rational ones challenging the hostile assertions. They do not seem interested in guiding the discussions toward the stated goal or "mission statement" of this forum. (support for healthy relationships, help for those that want to fix the broken relationships they are in, and support for the people that cant fix what is broken and need to heal and move forward.)

5. It is much easier to make polarizing, divisive, and sweeping statements, rather than taking the time to be thoughtful, empathetic, inclusive, and compassionate. Worse still, the polarizing divisive statements are also much easier to consume/read because they usually consist of thoughtless one-liners that can be spammed over and over in any and all threads. Just for the sake of demonstration I will make the next point one of those statements and you can judge for yourself what is easier to consume/read (this point and the one before, or the next one I am about to make)


6. ONCE A cheater ALWAYS A cheater, you make me sick, you are a POS and dont deserve a second chance!!!!

7. Since 6 will be the shortest statement, it will be read (if you can call the skimming most people do as reading) by almost everyone who comes across this reply. Simple throw away statements grounded in dysfunctional opinion dont need to be though out, just repeated, over and over by more and more people to gain momentum and acceptance. The issues discussed here are complex and sometimes require complex answers, this is much harder for people to do, so very few actually bother.

I can go on and on about this, since the above is just scratching the surface, but there is almost no real point to doing so, since I have my doubts that meaningful change can actually occur here.

The misogyny and chauvinism mentioned by the OP have always been here, just bubbling away under the surface. As time went by and those kinds of opinions were not countered, the people making them became more and more comfortable expressing them. The baseless pseudo-science and misogyny expressed in books like MMSL and the constant reference to texts/post like it, contribute greatly to the problem. 

There is no scientific basis for the claim that a woman is biologically wired to "follow/support" her partner and will resent all instances in which she is placed in a leadership role. Yet that opinion gets expressed over and over, and combined with the large number of monotheistic Judeo-Christian members that make up the readership here, seems to be a good fit and will never go away. I wont even touch on the absurd alpha/beta dynamic that gets thrown around here like rice at a wedding.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> The real problem arises when a minority of posters on TAM mistake every other wayward wife on TAM for their own wayward wife. And attacks them on that basis.


Not an excuse - just a observation as why:

Quite often a loyal spouse is dealing with an unremorseful, nasty hearted cheater. They have many things they'd love to say and have their cheating spouse and have the cheater actually care that they are saying it. When they come here and are confronted with a remorseful cheater, they unload on them in the place of their spouse.

FWIW, we see the same behavior over in SIM when a LD woman shows up.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Very true.
> 
> Still.... it would be nice for all of us to hear the President's and First Lady's story one day.....in its entirety.....


Our story has been posted before....I kept it on my profile ...and I was quoted and misquoted and people tried to change my story so I removed it.

Sorry you missed it....one day I might put it back.


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## HobbesTheTiger (Apr 7, 2014)

What I really liked on another board (not LS) was that they have a special section for waywards, where (f)WWs and (f)WHs can post, and when they post, they can either select that thread is open to posting from BSs, or only to other fWS.

That way, they can decide, when first posting, to only hear replies from other wayward spouses, which will still be tough love, but perhaps less attacking than BSs.

I hope that someday TAM will introduce something like that, because it will encourage WSs to post here, and we will all benefit from that.

That's one of the very few things I find missing on TAM.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

wranglerman said:


> I've been here a while now, if there is one way I can relate to TAM is the fact that there is a certain "realness" to the main stay of posters.
> 
> I also feel that TAM is the more "ADULT" orientated site where although we may "call out" one another we also for the most part maintain civility, (so says he who got banned a couple of months back ).
> 
> ...


I've been banned before.. I'm thankful they disabled the middle finger emoticon on this site. I'd abuse it.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Excluding the Waywards who stroll by here that are way over the Top, haven't got a clue, probably clicked on the wrong site...

IMO, when a sincere W drops in here at CWI, tells their story, *and admits that they screwed up all on their own, regardless of intentions to R or D, they are met with a fairly civil crowd of BS. 

However, if in the first paragraph, the "blame, justification, I tried everything game" starts to bleed through the ink... the fangs come out quick and nasty. Some of this attitude, I honestly believe is a direct result of IC and MC that put a new age twist on infidelity as a 50/50 split in justification within a marriage gone south.

But we the BS majority here all know better and are more than willing to share that view. (satire)


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> The real problem arises when a minority of posters on TAM mistake every other wayward wife on TAM for their own wayward wife. And attacks them on that basis.


I was one.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Several good points Paladin. For those that don't know me, I am a former BS that recovered my marriage after a D-Day in 2007. I'd like to address some of them.



Paladin said:


> 1. The constant erosion of moderate and balanced voices and opinions, primarily caused by the process of healing and moving forward, left a void here. There are very few people left here that are around just to try and help others heal, the ones that got the help they needed, rebuilt a stronger relationship, and healed from the damage, dropped this place like a hot rock, because continued long term exposure to the anger, hatred, and toxicity present here is unbearable, counter productive and really depressing.


This is very true but I also think it is healthy for people who have recovered the marriage or moved on from it to get away from the forum. Being surrounded by triggers isn't the healthiest emotional thing to do for yourself after being keel hauled by your spouse. On the other hand we've had formally betrayeds that go too far in the other direction about being too forgiving and trusting to a point of violating rules and getting banned. Banning 8Years was one of my toughest to do but the order has to go both ways.



Paladin said:


> 2. The well adjusted, rational, empathetic voices that are still here are drowned out ten fold by the voices that express opinions based on normalizing negative emotion, internalizing a sense of being a "victim" and the release of those emotions through personal attacks veiled as "tough love" or "2x4ing." I feel really bad for these individuals, because of how blind they are to the behavior they are engaged in.
> 
> The pain they felt when they were betrayed, became the status quo for their day to day existence, and the only way to nurture those emotions is by constantly reliving them by proxy through the never ending supply of people seeking to cope with infidelity that post here on a daily basis.


Walking in here as a WS and proclaiming it can be like walking into the loins' den in a meat suite. We (mods) expect a certain amount of anger and will let BS's vent as long as it doesn't degrade to disrespectful posts or a feeding frenzy. Few navigate the shards successfully unless they show remorse and a willingness to make things right. (Tears) Others that come here to justify and rationalize are far game as long as the rules are followed. Some come and go so quickly that most members never knew they were here. I've ended up banning a member then inviting the WS back but I don't think anyone ever came back once flogged.



Paladin said:


> 3. Like attracts like. As time passes, the groups of people who have normalized negative emotion, eventually find one another, and begin to feed each other through self referential circular reasoning. They begin to support one another in the threads they post in and make it seems as if their misguided opinions are the norm, and people who deviate from those opinions are often picked on, until they no longer feel like contributing.


We call them wolf packs. They come and go.



Paladin said:


> 4. Lack of leadership from above. I dont know if the sale of TAM 3-4 years ago contributed in any way to the "absentee land lord" situation when it comes to moderating the comments. Mods are very rarely heard from, and when they are, they tend to make sweeping changes to threads, deleting the hostile posts, AND the rational ones challenging the hostile assertions. They do not seem interested in guiding the discussions toward the stated goal or "mission statement" of this forum. (support for healthy relationships, help for those that want to fix the broken relationships they are in, and support for the people that cant fix what is broken and need to heal and move forward.)


Actually the sale to VirticalScope was just last May but the change is notable. The cohesiveness of the mod group has diminished as the "old guard" has dissipated. That group (Drac, Andrea, M22, Swede, Leah & myself) were all a combination of WSs and BSs. We all had baggage. Some are still here in Mod-Lite mode and Drac passed away. Others just moved on. I no longer "Drive" conversations or get deep into threads as I just don't have the desire to emotionally invest myself anymore. I suppose the empathy I so deeply felt for fellow BSs has ebbed with time. I stay primarily out of loyalty to Chris and Jen for all their work in building this place and its huge impact in the success of our marriage.





Paladin said:


> 7. Since 6 will be the shortest statement, it will be read (if you can call the skimming most people do as reading) by almost everyone who comes across this reply. Simple throw away statements grounded in dysfunctional opinion dont need to be though out, just repeated, over and over by more and more people to gain momentum and acceptance. The issues discussed here are complex and sometimes require complex answers, this is much harder for people to do, so very few actually bother.


This is an item that irks me the most. Catch alls that are tossed out without understanding the situation and more destructive not explaining why the suggestions can be effective. Both BSs and WSs can come here in panic mode and will grab what ever straw they can in desperation. But processes like the 180 or exposure can tank a marriage when used improperly and without a solid understanding. I applaude those who take the time to explain these to someone that is at his/her most vulnerable.

For all of you that are here to try and help those in need, thank you from all of us.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

*I also think it is healthy for people who have recovered the marriage or moved on from it to get away from the forum.*

Amp...I think you are right...but in the last 8 months...i feel like i have helped many people...and have also grown as a person. I know i wont be here forever...but if i can help...i want to stay...and i can see how staying has also benefited JA. so for now...i feel as though it is still a good place for us to be.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> *I also think it is healthy for people who have recovered the marriage or moved on from it to get away from the forum.*
> 
> Amp...I think you are right...but in the last 8 months...i feel like i have helped many people...and have also grown as a person. I know i wont be here forever...but if i can help...i want to stay...and i can see how staying has also benefited JA. so for now...i feel as though it is still a good place for us to be.


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## crankinfinity (May 5, 2014)

Kinder, gentler:

1. Respect. Some folks have a hard time not letting "keeping it real" turn into "when keeping it real goes wrong". This one is a clear fix.

2. Compassion. Taking all of the BS's stories at face value leading to general lack of compassion for what is actually going on for both parties: death of a marriage.

Cheating is just one of the ways a spouse will destroy a marriage - it is the most visible transgression and therefore the easiest to target while forgetting or even discounting other viable issues (emotional abandonment, emotional abuse, etc).

To crucify cheaters is the easy route, but the truth that betrayed spouses often have huge contributing issues to marital discord RARELY is brought out in the open here - it's more convenient to hide it. A BS will use the cheating as a focal point to not have to deal with their side of the table. 3rd parties tend to bite hook, line, and sinker.

This is not such an easy fix - to stop assumptions and tread more carefully.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

I wish more WS's would post here. I think much can be learned from both sides. I may get flogged for this but I think new BS's should have to stay out of new WS threads. 

I know I was guilty of projecting when I was new here and it seems to me that the one's I see projecting the most are either newly betrayed or are just not far along in their own healing. 

I think the further a BS is in their own healing, the less raw their pain and the less likely they are to project. The most quality responses to threads that I see are those from CWI vets on both sides (both BS's and WS's that have stuck around).

There is a big difference between spewing venom and offering a proverbial 2x4. It is the former that I believe "scares off" even remorseful waywards. Those in need of, and that actually recieve the 2x4 without the vitriol stick around and continue to post here.
WS input, whether we agree with it or not is valuable. Misdirecting one's hurt or anger at their own spouse, to a stranger that comes here for help is not. 

Similarly to WS original threads, we see a lot of threads asking for Wayward input i.e.) "What do WS's think about xyz topic?" 

Often BS's respond on behalf of what _they think_ their WS was thinking. ("They weren't they were just thinking about themselves because they're entitled and selfish asshats like all cheaters are.") 

I don't think answering such questions by proxy on behalf of your WS is all that helpful for the rest of us. It might help _you _to vent but unless you're the WS or answering about what your spouse actually said to you in a discussion you had with them about "xyz topic" then it's not based in fact and just a rant.


Anyway, just my 2 cents. 
I'm ready for my spanking. ---> :moon:


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I read posts from much earlier in TAM in which BH not long after Dday were engaged in discussion with WW who were trying to decided how to clean up their lives. These discussion were awkward but healthy because the BH gained insight into the factors that contributed to breakdown of their marriages.

The WW, on the other hand, got to read about the pain that their own husbands felt or would feel.

This process allowed both to imagine the position of other in a way that could not come from people simply telling them what to do.

Also, TAM becomes too reductionist at times. The love that waywards feel is merely a chemical illusion that is set on a doomed course. Really?


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> The real problem arises when a minority of posters on TAM mistake every other wayward wife on TAM for their own wayward wife. And attacks them on that basis.


I don't believe BS on this forum are dumb enough to "mistake every other wayward wife on TAM for their own wayward wife." Actually that's rather condescending. Have you considered, perhaps, the reactions of BS towards WS in general are based on the fact that WS have come here and admitted to committing a moral crime, willingly causing other human beings (oftentimes children) pain and suffering and destroyed families (even if we, the BS, don't know any of these people personally), and we are expressing our views towards such people in a generalized manner?

So to express disdain, disapproval, anger, whatever, towards someone, is only justifiable if said person has committed said acts against the person expressing these feelings personally? 

That's not how the world works.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> ....and remember...I owe you nothing.


Agreed. And vice versa.


----------



## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

Hmmm. The only thing that irritates me on this site if the misogyny, which is a bit driven by the failure to distinguish between one's own cheating wife and other cheating wives.

I have no tolerance for dissembling, and there is some of that here.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Fenix said:


> Hmmm. The only thing that irritates me on this site if the misogyny, which is a bit driven by the failure to distinguish between one's own cheating wife and other cheating wives.
> 
> I have no tolerance for dissembling, and there is some of that here.


I would say it goes both ways. Misandry is also ripe here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> I think the reason more men post here is because men are more exrernal about this stuff than women. Women tend to deal diffently with betrayal than guys.


That doesn't explain why other sites have so many more women posting than there are here. CWI is not very female-friendly. As I suggested and as Paladin pointed out more directly by calling it what it is - "misogyny and chauvinism" - there are attitudes expressed here that don't often get challenged; the voices of moderation are either silent or "shouted" down.

As Paladin pointed out:



> As time went by and those kinds of opinions were not countered, the people making them became more and more comfortable expressing them. The baseless pseudo-science and misogyny expressed in books like MMSL and the constant reference to texts/post like it, contribute greatly to the problem.
> 
> There is no scientific basis for the claim that a woman is biologically wired to "follow/support" her partner and will resent all instances in which she is placed in a leadership role. Yet that opinion gets expressed over and over...


It really does feel like the He-Man Woman Haters Club here a lot of the time.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> *I also think it is healthy for people who have recovered the marriage or moved on from it to get away from the forum.*
> 
> Amp...I think you are right...but in the last 8 months...i feel like i have helped many people...and have also grown as a person. I know i wont be here forever...but if i can help...i want to stay...and i can see how staying has also benefited JA. so for now...i feel as though it is still a good place for us to be.


You have helped a lot of people. You should stay around, as should EI. I wish Tears would come around more often.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

hopefulgirl said:


> That doesn't explain why other sites have so many more women posting than there are here. CWI is not very female-friendly. As I suggested and as Paladin pointed out more directly by calling it what it is - "misogyny and chauvinism" - there are attitudes expressed here that don't often get challenged; the voices of moderation are either silent or "shouted" down.
> 
> As Paladin pointed out:
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_

I look at it from the opposite direction. I think men have found TAM to be a refuge where their masculinity is not stifled so much as at other websites. 

You have been raised in a politically correct anti -male society. What you see here is real male anger.... Honest anger. I think very website had its own culture and that this is ours.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Have to agree with most of what is being said, on a bad day someone will put up something that to me is wrong and you fire back with something you shouldn't post.
because
A. it hits a nerve and the reflex action is to snap back (us BS can be defensive just like a WS)
and you forget
b. everyone has an opinion whether I think it is right doesn't matter to be disrespectful to someone else and their opinions never solves anything, they have the same conviction about their thoughts that I about mine

Unfortunately we live in a world today where respect and politeness are not given as much as they should, everything is in your face, you're wrong I am right there is little middle ground.

I do believe you can be honest, direct and offer a difference of opinion without being rude or insensitive, I have tried to keep this belief when dealing with my WS (and anyone else) not always easy and I don't always succeed.


P.S. why as I have read this thread do I keep picturing unicorns and rainbows dancing in the clouds that are the forums on TAM


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

hopefulgirl said:


> That doesn't explain why other sites have so many more women posting than there are here. CWI is not very female-friendly. As I suggested and as Paladin pointed out more directly by calling it what it is - "misogyny and chauvinism" - there are attitudes expressed here that don't often get challenged; the voices of moderation are either silent or "shouted" down.
> 
> As Paladin pointed out:
> 
> ...


Rubbish. There just happens to be a lot more betrayed men here than women. Now, I'm not sure exactly why that is, but it is. And I don't believe more women than men cheat - so that's puzzling.

Misogyny and chauvinism have nothing to do with it. I have the same feelings towards men who cheat that I do towards women who cheat.

Let's not turn this into a "CWI hates women" thing, because that's not the case. Obviously there are some men here who hate women in general, just as there are some women who hate men in general - just like in the real world.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Healer said:


> Rubbish. There just happens to be a lot more betrayed men here than women. Now, I'm not sure exactly why that is, but it is. And I don't believe more women than men cheat - so that's puzzling.
> 
> Misogyny and chauvinism have nothing to do with it. I have the same feelings towards men who cheat that I do towards women who cheat.
> 
> Let's not turn this into a "CWI hates women" thing, because that's not the case. Obviously there are some men here who hate women in general, just as there are some women who hate men in general - just like in the real world.


It has been discussed here before men don't seem to have as many outlets(friends, relatives, etc) as women do to discuss their problems so I think that is the result of the overload of men on here which in turn can make for a hostile environment for women.
I do think it is easy to tell the men(or women) who truly hate the opposite sex from those who are triggering over a particular thread


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

There are plenty of active threads on the forum now discussing Misogyny & Misandry. We don't need to go there in this one also. Let's keep it focused on the original intent. Treatment of the BS & WS on the forum. Thanks.

There, I've intervened.


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## cj9947 (Jul 9, 2011)

Whether you are male or female, if you can't do the time (blow back) then don't do the crime (adultery).


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

crankinfinity said:


> Kinder, gentler:
> 
> 1. Respect. Some folks have a hard time not letting "keeping it real" turn into "when keeping it real goes wrong". This one is a clear fix.
> 
> ...



:iagree:

This is an excellent post by a newer TAM member. Unfortunately, posts like these are often overlooked, or discounted completely, simply because the poster is new to TAM. 

I just want to acknowledge that there are some great points, here, with regard to addressing the OP's question about what a kinder, gentler TAM would look like.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Amplexor said:


> There, I've intervened.


That made me chuckle.


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## Rubicon (Jan 13, 2014)

I think there are a number of things that could change but it is up to the members to do it and that won't happen. I'll add three big ones I think would make a world of difference.

First, nobody should post in a thread they haven't read. Ever. We see all the time someone start a post by saying "I haven't read the whole thread but..." Well, if you haven't then how do you know your opinion is relevant at all? You don't have to read Wranglers cut and paste novels over and over and over again (someone should teach him how to paste a link btw) But a read of each of the OP's posts is a must in my opinion. I typically read only the OP's posts in most threads because that is the only relevant content, sometimes there is very little in useful advice and lots of that "Projecting" discussed earlier going on.

Second, nobody should post more than one message between OP posts. We have an abundance of thread hijacking where an op posts a few details and before they can follow up, a handful of posters will add page after page of speculation based on the last guys speculation further speculating and taking the whole thread off track. When a thread goes multiple pages without a post from the OP yet the same handful are posting in Every thread over and over and over talking amongst themselves, to me that's a major fail. Learn to use the Private Message feature. You help nobody by hijacking a thread.

Third, Ban anyone who tries to bully someone with an opposing opinion from a thread. I've had members who disagreed with me try to tell me to stop posting in particular threads. The site is public, all valid members are entitled to post so long as the rules are followed. If you try to push someone out of a thread you should be banned, simple as that. That should be a rule and enforced by the mods.

There are other smaller issues for sure but those three should be standard rules of conduct. They would make a big difference.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

It would look like Surviving Infidelity.

I was banned from posting on the wayward forums over there ( I rarely post there) because I couldn't help but try to wake up an unremorseful cheater who not only did not want to help her BH, who she admitted was a great guy who had done nothing wrong, heal the M, but she also got drunk and abused her BH's sexual prowess and was screaming (according to her) how much she loved sex with her POS with the kids in nearby rooms.

And her attitude was she was sorry for her inexcusable cheating, but she was thinking it was best to leave her BH AND kids for a couple years. then if her feelings changed she would get back with her BH.

Now, I didn't call her names or insult her...I just bluntly pointed out she better wake up.

It was insulting for her to just assume her BH would take her back if she followed up her cheating by abandoning the M to go live the wild life (which she said she needed to do) for a few years.

And I told her, based on my dad's experiences with a mother who ran off with a POS when he was 2, that she better worry about losing her kids for life if she didn't wake up.

I was called out for being harsh by a BS (!!!) who reported me and I can no longer comment on wayward's threads.

I guess they don't like the real world over there.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> Most WSs need to hear sincere reactions from BSs.
> 
> Kinder Gentler TAM = Watered down PC responses.


Exactly. And if they aren't interested in hearing from people that where betrayed in one of the worst ways just like they betrayed their spouses, then don't post.

They complain about harshness. Sorry, words on a forum pale in comparison to what they did to someone in real life.

I'm not saying be harsh just to be harsh or lash out, but when I'm harsh I tell them exactly what I think they should do, and if they aren't willing to do what it might take to help a BS, that by their description, is angry just like I was, then I advise divorce.

The other thing that bugs me is when someone says something like "they aren't your WS, they aren't the ones that cheated on you". Well duh. They ARE someone just like, or at the very least similar in that they are cheaters, someone that DID cheat on us.

If that was a valid argument, then why look for advice from someone that isn't like their betrayed spouse?


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Nostromo said:


> Now to be completely frank, I must confess that oftentimes when I hear this point made the first thing that pops into my mind is the OM/OW forums on another message board I'll just call "LS" since I'm not certain if I'm allowed to mention a "rival" forum here.


That site is a cesspool. I'm surprised they don't advertise on Ash Mad. And actually I think they have had advertisement banners FOR Ash Mad on their site.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Dyokemm said:


> It would look like Surviving Infidelity.
> 
> I guess they don't like the real world over there.


:iagree: :iagree:

TAM is TAM. Other sites are other sites. If TAM was like other sites it wouldn't be TAM.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

hopefulgirl said:


> It really does feel like the He-Man Woman Haters Club here a lot of the time.


And there have been many man hating threads and posts here lately too.

It goes both ways.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

hopefulgirl said:


> It really does feel like the He-Man Woman Haters Club here a lot of the time.





vellocet said:


> And there have been many man hating threads and posts here lately too.
> 
> It goes both ways.


I will repeat, we are not going there in this thread. There are other threads pretty much dedicated to the subject.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Amplexor said:


> There are plenty of active threads on the forum now discussing Misogyny & Misandry. We don't need to go there in this one also. Let's keep it focused on the original intent. Treatment of the BS & WS on the forum. Thanks.
> 
> There, I've intervened.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

One aspect that could be handled with more philosophical distance is sexuality. Consider Tears and Un Amor Perdido. They seem to me very fine people. They cheated and couldn't stand their moral transgression. TAM did not fix them so much as they were going to go that route anyway.

Tears was a virgin when she got together with her ex husband. He had had many partners. They had two children and life was a bit boring. She was curious and impulsively had sex with a stranger whom she met in a pub. It seems like a very human failing. She did not extend or prolong the affair but came clean.

A woman who admitted that she enjoyed adulterous sex would be shamed on CWI. But sex is pleasurable. Why should people deny it's importance. Giving up a lover may be hard. However, there is little sympathy for these notions, so wayward wives do not hang round.

On other sites that approve of affairs


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> I look at it from the opposite direction. I think men have found TAM to be a refuge where their masculinity is not stifled so much as at other websites.


With respect to Apm's request I wont get into too much detail adressing this point. However, I have never had my masculinity attacked as frequently, harshly, and vehemently as here on TAM by people who claimed to be doing it for "my own good" or "tough love." 

The absurd marginalization of males into two meaningless labels "Alpha/Beta" and the insistence that one of those two labels is somehow more correct, or more appealing to all females, and is at the root of all marital dysfunction sends my blood pressure through the roof.

I was attacked countless times in my first thread here for having the audacity to employ empathy, kindness, and understanding when analyzing my spouse's irrational behavior. My personal character guides how I relate to the world, and one of my guiding principals is adopting the most charitable interpretation of situations that I do not understand.

The attacks continued right up until my spouse attempted to take her own life and called me to say goodbye. Since I was using TAM for support at the time (in addition to IC of course), and had my pone on me, I posted 3 or 4 times that day while dealing with the situation in the ER (14 hours). 

The majority of people calling me a P*ssy, cuckold, doormat, beta, with my balls in my spouses purse stopped replying after that post. I suppose things were a bit too real for them, and it was a bit less fun to make themselves feel better by emasculating me when faced with the possibility that their toxic advice could have potentially led to her death. (if I didnt answer my phone, as so many people kept insisting was the correct course of action. The primary reason I decided to delete the thread was the description of that day, and the hate people spewed toward my spouse without even knowing who she was.) 




Healer said:


> Rubbish...Misogyny and chauvinism have nothing to do with it. I have the same feelings towards men who cheat that I do towards women who cheat...Let's not turn this into a "CWI hates women" thing, because that's not the case.


Again, as Amp requested, I will do my best to keep this short and on topic. 

The point is not about "hating" women, it is about the culture that seems to see women as "second," "followers," "supporters," and insists that women will resent men that "allow" them to be "placed" into positions of leadership and authority as the status quo. These baseless claims are then supported by pseudo-science, and perpetuated because they fit into a particular interpretation of Judeo-Christian scripture. 

A very simple example of this dynamic is the outlook on Stay At Home Dads that is constantly expressed here. They are often attacked harder and vilified more than serial cheaters, and that boggles my mind. 



Amplexor said:


> There are plenty of active threads on the forum now discussing Misogyny & Misandry. We don't need to go there in this one also. Let's keep it focused on the original intent. Treatment of the BS & WS on the forum. Thanks.
> 
> *There, I've intervened*.


Sorry if I pushed the boundaries with the quoted stuff about the female/male dynamic. I understand that you want this discussion to stay on topic, but I felt those opinions needed some attention.

Unless you are taking home a fat paycheck for moderating this site, please do not take my opinions on the lack of leadership from moderators to heart, or see it as any kind of reflection you as a person. As far as I understand it, you guys do this for altruistic reasons, so *any* effort you make towards that goal is perfectly fine with me. I really appreciate the time and work you guys put in to this place, thank you.




vellocet said:


> ...if they aren't interested in hearing from people that where[sic] betrayed in one of the worst ways just like they betrayed their spouses, then don't post.


Anything that can be said in anger using foul language and labels, can be restated evenhandedly, and resonate just as much, or even more. We are all adults, no need to scream like children on a playground. 




vellocet said:


> They complain about harshness. Sorry, words on a forum pale in comparison to what they did to someone in real life.


Cyber bullying is very real, and people die very frequently because of "words on a forum," takes a real big man to spout off and attack others from behind the safety of anonymity and an avatar.




vellocet said:


> I'm not saying be harsh just to be harsh or lash out, but when I'm harsh *I* *tell* them exactly what *I* think they should do...


And you qualify your expertise in these matters with what exactly?




vellocet said:


> The other thing that bugs me is when someone says something like "they aren't your WS, they aren't the ones that cheated on you". Well duh. They ARE someone just like, or at the very least similar in that they are cheaters, someone that DID cheat on us.
> 
> If that was a valid argument, then why look for advice from someone that isn't like their betrayed spouse?


This kind of circular reasoning and flawed logic is what bugs me. You and Osama Bin Laden both drank water every day, does that make you a terrorist? Not only do words mean different things to different people, but there is no "one type" of "cheater" and no one size fits all solution to dealing with them.

My spouse cheated on me, beyond that, what does she have in common with whoever cheated on you? Do you understand how diverse a persons experience of life can be from another? Lumping everything into neat boxes that fit with your world view only achieves feeding your ego and making you feel entitled to say the stuff you just said.


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## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

Affaircare said:


> Here's my addition to this topic--which by the way I think is a good one!
> 
> I know the place "LS" of which you speak, and I'm with you--that place is a moral sinkhole! I would *never *want something like that here at TAM! I actually admire that, for the most part, people here will tell you the real truth. I think that is so very necessary!
> 
> ...


*I think I understand, many wayward spouses would not want to go through the gauntlet of posts from people who are sort of lashing out at them and I couldn't blame them especially when there probably still reeling from their own problems. However I will say I have seen many instances of people in the opposing "camp" the ones who I sort of addressed this to, taking every single post from the "hang em' high" crowd personally even when people are just being vague and saying they can't see how somebody could take back a WS back. There seems to be a knee jerk reaction to "defend" themselves or their BS when nobody even mentions any names.:scratchhead: I don't understand that.*


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## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

thatbpguy said:


> To me a bigger issue are trolls. I have been on message boards since the very beginning and even started the very first one in SE Asia. I am very active currently on 4 major and a few private ones so I know a troll eventually. Or at least I have a pretty strong sense of them. But I either play along or just drop out of the thread when it becomes obvious. But they stir things up more so than the betrayers.


*I don't know if this a very subtle accusation or if I'm just paranoid. It conjured up an image in my mind of a James Bond type movie where the hero and villain are talking and they both know what the other guy is up to but it's never addressed openly.*


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

One possibility I have suggested for quite a while is a sub-forum or a spot similar to the Private Members area where a Disloyal Person could say 'I'd like to have my thread moved to X" and it's a more actively moderated area... like normal CWI is the public and the mods are about but really giving folks freedom to speak their minds, and this other area is more a specialty where the mods keep an eye on it and don't let things get too flamie. 

Right now, it seems to me that mods really do give us a LOT of freedom when it comes to being blunt, being harsh, speaking the truth, 2x4s, etc. (which by the way, I appreciate ENORMOUSLY!!!). But the idea I propose is like a sub-forum, maybe moderated by EI, Mrs.Adams or myself, where who is actually like a HOST and all we do is watch that forum. Or maybe it's "by invitation only" or maybe ??? ... I don't know how to do this. Anybody have any ideas or suggestions how you'd do it? Because honestly that's where I get stuck. I'm a firm believer in freedom of speech and that means you get to say stuff I don't like or agree with! So how then do you have an area where it's "safer"? 

I was a mod on another forum once where we had a spot for women who were trying to get out of the sex trafficking industry (they were ex-porn or ex-prostitutes or ex-dancers, etc.). Anyway, that was a completely private forum and you could only see it if you requested to enter and sort of "proved" that you had reason to be in there, and it was moderated 24/7 by folks who had some skills being ... shall we say "less judgmental"? You can imagine, some of the stuff said in there was pretty rough! 

My point here is even if we imagine this "kinder, gentler TAM" I wouldn't really change what we already have, and if I try to brainstorm what we might do, I get stuck on people's rights.


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## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

That's sounds like a pretty good idea Affaircare, if they did that maybe people would not feel like they're being "castrated" in their language/opinions and WS's would have a place to speak freely among themselves about things that do not go over so well in CWI. Mods get on it!


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

I think a big problem is professional help and lack of people to talk to beyond TAM sometimes..

I have read many posts from betrayed forum goers that have been divorced for years and are still bitter. They can attack people sometimes even weak betrayed spouses like they should be condemned for being so weak. 

This is more noticeable on the life after divorce forum. 

So when someone comes along that is a wayward, they immediately relive their past and take it out on this person. Granted some deserve a slight verbal beating sometimes because of the silly excuses they make for the reason they cheated. 

Nutshell their are times people need to suck in their emotions and be more rational.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hopefulgirl*
> 
> It really does feel like the He-Man Woman Haters Club here a lot of the time.





vellocet said:


> And there have been many man hating threads and posts here lately too.
> 
> It goes both ways.


I apologize for my "He-Man Woman Haters Club" joke that apparently wasn't recognized as such. 

With this line, I tried to inject a little humor at the end of my otherwise "heavy" post, but I can see where it could have been taken the wrong way, especially if people are unaware of the reference. I guess it wasn't funny. I meant to lighten things up; it appears I failed.

There was a series of black and white short films in the 1930's featuring a group of kids. They were called the "Little Rascals" and in one of them, the boys formed a club by this name.

Hating any group of people is bad no matter who does it. If there are many man-hating threads here, even if I haven't seen them (perhaps not on CWI? that's where I generally look), that shouldn't be tolerated either, and I hope there are people speaking up on those threads and calling them out on it.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

What do you MEAN there's no "He Man Woman Haters Club"? We got a clubhouse and everything!


----------



## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> I would say it goes both ways. Misandry is also ripe here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Really? Examples? I am not doubting you, I just haven't picked up on it. Most of the misogyny I see is in the CWI and men's forum(which is not unexpected, unfortunately).

eta: Oh, never mind. Amplexor lowered the boom!



> I look at it from the opposite direction. I think men have found TAM to be a refuge where their masculinity is not stifled so much as at other websites.
> 
> You have been raised in a politically correct anti -male society. What you see here is real male anger.... Honest anger. I think very website had its own culture and that this is ours.


I get the honest anger, and that is what I usually chalk it up to. Men express their anger differently (in many cases) and actually, I like that TAM is pretty evenly split between the genders. I like the male perspective and can separate out the honest anger from the other thing that Amp said we couldn't talk about. But then, when faced with a WS, I reacted in a more typically male fashion (I think...)


----------



## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Fenix said:


> Really? Examples? I am not doubting you, I just haven't picked up on it. Most of the misogyny I see is in the CWI and men's forum(which is not unexpected, unfortunately).


Hey, I understand the interest, but that might be better discussed via PM with the person you are talking to. There was a request early in the thread, see below:




Amplexor said:


> There are plenty of active threads on the forum now discussing Misogyny & Misandry. We don't need to go there in this one also. Let's keep it focused on the original intent. Treatment of the BS & WS on the forum. Thanks.
> 
> There, I've intervened.





Amplexor said:


> I will repeat, we are not going there in this thread. There are other threads pretty much dedicated to the subject.


edit:

Did not see your edit, was posting reply and was unsure if you saw Amps post


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Paladin said:


> I was attacked countless times in my first thread here for having the audacity to employ empathy, kindness, and understanding when analyzing my spouse's irrational behavior. My personal character guides how I relate to the world, and one of my guiding principals is adopting the most charitable interpretation of situations that I do not understand.
> 
> The attacks continued right up until my spouse attempted to take her own life and called me to say goodbye. Since I was using TAM for support at the time (in addition to IC of course), and had my pone on me, I posted 3 or 4 times that day while dealing with the situation in the ER (14 hours).
> 
> The majority of people calling me a P*ssy, cuckold, doormat, beta, with my balls in my spouses purse stopped replying after that post.


I would NEVER EVER, especially in your case, say anything of the sort to you. If that is the kind of thing you, as a BS, experienced, that is just wrong.

I'm sorry you had to endure that.




> Anything that can be said in anger using foul language and labels, can be restated evenhandedly, and resonate just as much, or even more. We are all adults, no need to scream like children on a playground.


I don't condone cussing someone out in anger here, even a WS.

Labels? Well if by that you are including the word "cheater", sorry, I'll just have to reserve the right to use that.

I don't condone an outright anger attack. But I'm going to tell it like I see it. And if the truth is too harsh, so be it.





> Cyber bullying is very real, and people die very frequently because of "words on a forum," takes a real big man to spout off and attack others from behind the safety of anonymity and an avatar.


I agree. But the "harshness" of which I am speaking is that of simple hard truth, not anger attacks.





> And you qualify your expertise in these matters with what exactly?


Uh, they are called opinions. Nowhere do I profess that I, or anyone else who gives an opinion, is an expert. 

That's what an opinion is. Someone asks, and you tell them the truth as YOU see it.




> This kind of circular reasoning and flawed logic is what bugs me. You and Osama Bin Laden both drank water every day, does that make you a terrorist? Not only do words mean different things to different people, but there is no "one type" of "cheater" and no one size fits all solution to dealing with them.


We aren't talking about drinking water. Really?

We are talking about getting opinions. What better opinions than that of someone who has walked a mile in the shoes of the person they betrayed? They want to know how more than likely their BS will react, ask other BS's. If their BS is very angry, then another BS who was just as angry can tell them what more than likely to expect.

Your right, there is no "one type" of "cheater" that fits all. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the best way to find out what is going on in the mind of one's BS is to see what a like minded BS has to say.
If one's BS is not very angry, yet more hurt and devastated, then the same type of BS here can give good insight.
If one's BS is angry as hell, then sorry, but the harshness of someone just like him/her is going to give that WS insight on what to probably expect, and what their BS might require of them.



> My spouse cheated on me, beyond that, what does she have in common with whoever cheated on you?


Probably quite a bit, but not a guarantee. I'm just saying that comment rubs me raw, that's all.




> Do you understand how diverse a persons experience of life can be from another? Lumping everything into neat boxes that fit with your world view only achieves feeding your ego and making you feel entitled to say the stuff you just said.


Relax buddy. Take a breath.

This is a forum where you are going to get a plethora of opinions from a plethora of different types of people. 

My truths aren't any less valid than someone elses who hold a different perspective. What you basically are suggesting is because I feel the way I do that what I say should be discounted.

Now who is claiming to be the expert?


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

It would look a little like Loveshack


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

convert said:


> It would look a little like Loveshack


:gun:Loveshack


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

A while ago, I registered on SI. 3 posts later, I never logged in. Why? - they condemn revenge against the OM/OW. Even CV is a no-no there. Yeah, yeah. Whatever...

TAM community exists for a reason- righteous anger is not condemned.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

WhiteRaven said:


> A while ago, I registered on SI. 3 posts later, I never logged in. Why? - they condemn revenge against the OM/OW. Even CV is a no-no there. Yeah, yeah. Whatever...
> 
> TAM community exists for a reason- righteous anger is not condemned.


That site was created by a woman who got caught cheating.

WS's there are given great latitude. If as a BS, if you say something about a WS that the mods(whom a majority of are/were WS's), then you will get the boot. Not like its a loss. That site is just as much of a cesspool as LS.

But oh, a WS saying that a BS must have done something for them to be cheated on, and those kinds of posts were acceptable.

I support divorcing a cheating spouse as well as reconciliation if the WS is truly remorseful. But as far as the owner of SI, her husband is a fool because its obvious she didn't learn a damn thing from her cheating. And she had to get caught, she didn't have a grand revelation that she should stop. She was just faced with losing her comfortable life.


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## movin on (Jan 24, 2012)

I have seen a lot of really bad advice on si. Gently now I hope I didn't hit to hard with that 2x4
I'll stay with tam.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

vellocet said:


> *She was just faced with losing her comfortable life.*


This sentence is a major trigger bro.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

vellocet said:


> :gun:Loveshack


Although the guy over there who, once he find out that his WW had sex on their couch, dragged the couch into the back yard and set it on fire is pretty cool.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

There are a lot of good, thoughtful posts on this thread.

I don't have anything to add right now but hope this discussion continues.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

GTdad said:


> Although the guy over there who, once he find out that his WW had sex on their couch, dragged the couch into the back yard and set it on fire is pretty cool.


I remember him and the story at LS. The first time the wife was with the OM was on their living room couch. He found that out about 7 months into their R believing she had come clean after D-Day. I'm glad he divorced her. He seems to be in a better place these days.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Why change something that ain't broke ?

_I never forget what the CWI forum is about_ Coping with *Infidelity* ........coping with treachery, betrayal, the wanton choice laden destruction of , marriages, children, relationships families and all the ripples that go forth from it 

I could repeat that sentence in case anybody forgot what we are all in and all have been a part of as either betrayed or transgressors

For me TAM is the right balance especially if you understand the full meaning what infidelity is all about.

This analogy is obviously a bit dramatic but I dont want us ever to forget the gas chambers so we can hopefully never go there again. That's obvious

I feel the same about adultery / infidelity and and the pain it causes globally - I don't want to forget it, have it diluted or watered down. I don't like it being minimized or tampered with to make life easier for those that are responsible for bringing it all down on our heads.

The moment you make it all a bit more 'palatable' is the moment the floodgates open even wider.

TAM currently imo is hard but fair. Sometimes it's over the top but don't forget we are people, fallible, and variable so that will happen but generally it works 

imo


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

vellocet said:


> I would NEVER EVER, especially in your case, say anything of the sort to you. If that is the kind of thing you, as a BS, experienced, that is just wrong.
> 
> I'm sorry you had to endure that.


Thank you, i was fortunate enough to have some rational voices posting in my thread as well, so I chose to focus on them, not the meaningless one liner attempts to emasculate me for acting in a way they were unable to act in their own cases.

I also had a great IC with 30 years of experience. She counsels vets with PTSD, individuals and couples. Her first husband cheated on her, she left him and found her soul mate, who by the time I started counseling with her had passed away.

Every bit of advice I got from TAM, or anywhere else, was discussed in IC, I was seeing her twice a week, and started about two weeks before making an account here.

The vast majority of my advice, whether I'm supporting R or D, includes a line about IC being mandatory for sifting through advice and identifying relevant issues to work on. 




vellocet said:


> I don't condone cussing someone out in anger here, even a WS.
> 
> Labels? Well if by that you are including the word "cheater", sorry, I'll just have to reserve the right to use that.


You have the right to use whatever labels you like, I simply think its counter productive because humans are more than the sum of their actions, and do not have to be defined by their achievements or mistakes. 

Have you ever told a lie? Does that make you a liar?
Have you ever broken the law?(speeding, red light, whatever else) Does that make you a criminal?

The other issue I see is labels are contradictory, ie 20 years of faithful happy marriage vs a ONS, then R, which label do you go with? 



vellocet said:


> I don't condone an outright anger attack. But I'm going to tell it like I see it. And if the truth is too harsh, so be it...
> 
> ....I agree. But the "harshness" of which I am speaking is that of simple hard truth, not anger attacks.


Word choice is important, and I stand by what I said. You said words on a forum can never compare to what a WS did to a BS in real life, while I understand the intent and meaning, I wanted to point out that since cyber bullying is directly responsible for kids and young adults taking their own lives, it was not fair of you to dismiss the impact words can have.

The simple hard truth you mention can also be delivered in a civilized tone without sugar coating the gravity of what is being discussed here.

Before Doc-un-cool saw the light, I registered there because a TAM member was attacked on that board, and posted in CWI to vent. There was a time where people from TAM/CWI and other relationship support forums would try and post there to counter the delusional thinking being supported. The attempts would regularly turn hostile because of the baiting those people did, and the point would be lost or laughed down, and the person trying to make it would be banned.

I posted in a calm and civilized tone, without labels or foul language, and backed up what I was saying with citation to publications from various well known and respected sources (American Medical Journal, Journal of Psychology. other published works) The fallout was priceless, as they came out of the woodwork in droves to try and attack science to keep their precious delusions intact. I got more response from there than all the anger and pain laden posts combined. (they still banned me, saying "no penis or vagina is so irresistible that adults cant wait the few months divorce would take before dropping drawers to indulge" was somehow offensive, so go figure) 



vellocet said:


> Uh, they are called opinions. Nowhere do I profess that I, or anyone else who gives an opinion, is an expert.
> 
> That's what an opinion is. Someone asks, and you tell them the truth as YOU see it.


My apologies, I missed the word "think" in my initial read of the post. I read it as "I tell them what they should do."





vellocet said:


> We are talking about getting opinions. What better opinions than that of someone who has walked a mile in the shoes of the person they betrayed? ...
> Your right, there is no "one type" of "cheater" that fits all. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the best way to find out what is going on in the mind of one's BS is to see what a like minded BS has to say...


Thank you for clarifying. In many instances where the line about "person X is not your WS" is used, the person it is being directed at has posted something that is not applicable to the conversation and is obviously a hold over from whatever trauma they went through with their own WS. In many instances they use the opportunity to "put that POS cheater in his/her place" because they were unable to do so in their own life.

Before UAPs thread got heavily trimmed by the mods, someone at around the 30 page mark came in spouting off about "youre a POS and dont deserve a second chance." Or some similar trash, that was way out of line when directed at a WS that is complying freely with the guidelines outlined here for true R and heavy lifting. I would say that is a clear example of what we are talking about, in the post, and in this thread at large. 



vellocet said:


> Probably quite a bit, but not a guarantee. I'm just saying that comment rubs me raw, that's all.


I probably read too much into the "well Duh" and they are "just like, or similar" part of that reply, I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but unless you met your fWS in high school, after she immigrated here from the UK, was the eldest child of 2, became the first female in her family to graduate high school, and moved on to a PhD program, all while dealing with the particular dynamics of our locale, and so on and so forth... all the way to R and a stronger healthier relationship, the only major similarity would be cheating, which she confessed to unprompted btw. 





vellocet said:


> Relax buddy. Take a breath.
> 
> This is a forum where you are going to get a plethora of opinions from a plethora of different types of people.
> 
> ...


You are most certainly entitled to express yourself and your opinions, just as I am free to express myself and say you are wrong for attempting to find correlation where none exists. Invalidating the opinions of people that say "this person is not your WS, and not the one who cheated on you" is kind of what you say I'm doing to you, no? I think I understand your irritation about this issue. 

Other WS/BS are a good source of information, advice, and opinion about the topic of infidelity. However, when a person attempts to use a WS/BS as an outlet for the anger they feel toward whoever wronged them, they should be called out on it, as it only serves to make themselves feel better at the expense of someone that had nothing to do with their particular situation. Fair?


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Headspin said:


> ...Sometimes it's over the top but don't forget we are *people*, *fallible*, and variable so that will happen but generally it works
> 
> imo


That consideration has to be there in both directions. You cant have it one way when it suits you, but balk when that standard is applied to an issue you have a hard time being charitable/empathetic about. 

It is easy to justify someone being "over the top" when they are personally attacking a stranger by citing the fallible nature of humans, because that person was the BS in their situation. 

Try applying that standard to a fWS on TAM, and you will be accused of justifying an affair. I found this to be the case many times when I spoke up for a fWS trying to do the right thing.

Doubly so when I had "the nerve" to point out that affairs do not occur in a vacuum, and both spouses have to examine how they contributed to the dysfunction that led to the A, if there was to be a chance at R. Nine times out of ten, saying that, got me accused of blaming the affair on the BS.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Paladin said:


> That consideration has to be there in both directions. You cant have it one way when it suits you, but balk when that standard is applied to an issue you have a hard time being charitable/empathetic about.
> 
> It is easy to justify someone being "over the top" when they are personally attacking a stranger by citing the fallible nature of humans, because that person was the BS in their situation.
> 
> ...


the problem you have imo in bucketloads is trying to achieve a _balance_ in all of this. You're concentrating on it all being 'fair' - the betrayed feels 'this', so, the wayward can feel 'this' etc etc yes "lets all sit down after the act and sensibly discuss matters" ............. 

for me that's where you re' completely wrong in all of this 

There is no fairness - doesn't matter who has done what. What is infidelity? It is cheating. It is destruction *from choice* .

I'm betrayed - I did not do anything that wantonly caused the obliteration of families left right and centre BUT *my wayward wife did* she does not deserve the balance you are seeking to give her, her 'voice' in how she 'had' to do 'this' and had to do 'that' ad nauseum 

It IS NOT fair and unfortunately this is where many imo go wrong. It should NOT BE FAIR either. I like many betrayed gave my all, gave my honesty, gave my soul, for somebody who shat all over it, who fked me over in the biggest way another human can do to another. There is NO 'balance ' for people that do that and there shouldn't be either. 

'Waywards' lets use the more accurate terminology as well - adulterers, walk on here and damn it ........... expect hell fire

I'm not projecting about my own case, I'm saying what I think is complete bollocks about waywards having some level kind of playing field 

Its so fking tiresome this.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> Here's my addition to this topic--which by the way I think is a good one!
> 
> I know the place "LS" of which you speak, and I'm with you--that place is a moral sinkhole! I would *never *want something like that here at TAM! I actually admire that, for the most part, people here will tell you the real truth. I think that is so very necessary!
> 
> ...


I agree with you for the most part. The hard part here is that sometimes a person posts looking for not only advice but understanding and what they get from the first 10 posters is that 8 of them want instant divorce.

That is their opinion and their right to post it. But it might be nicer if all of us simply asked questions at the start. We very often don't have enough information to give an informed opinion at all. That way the OP has a chance to feel accepted and the rest of us don't get all temper driven.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> For me the bottom line is respect. We can agree to disagree...without name calling or being cruel.
> 
> I have had conversations with folks that treated me with kindness and respect...and I have had conversations here with abusive,rude, combative jerks.
> 
> ...


Well, anyone who wants to tear you apart unfairly has a lot of us folks to go through first.

And you are right. Give the OP a chance to explain prior to dismemberment and flaying alive.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Lm...I understand that...and I feel badly for folks who are suffering. We just need to remember..I am a bad guy..but I am not *your* bad guy....


I'm feeling pugnacious today so please forgive me in advance. But you are NOT a bad guy. Get that, NOT. You did something wrong and stupid. Many of us have done that. Your problem was with yourself and your husband. Your husband has forgiven you, perhaps it is time for you to promote yourself from bad guy to recovering sinner? Or maybe recovered sinner?

Give it a thought.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

RWB said:


> Excluding the Waywards who stroll by here that are way over the Top, haven't got a clue, probably clicked on the wrong site...
> 
> IMO, when a sincere W drops in here at CWI, tells their story, *and admits that they screwed up all on their own, regardless of intentions to R or D, they are met with a fairly civil crowd of BS.
> 
> However, if in the first paragraph, the "blame, justification, I tried everything game" starts to bleed through the ink... the fangs come out quick and nasty. Some of this attitude, I honestly believe is a direct result of IC and MC that put a new age twist on infidelity as a 50/50 split in justification within a marriage gone south.


You are right, this is a bone of contention. I think everyone agrees that the wayward gets the blame for being wayward. But infidelity does not take place in a vacuum. I think that we need to hear and evaluate the reason.

I've seen a number of folks, usually men, admit that they were pretty awful to their wives. And then they are surprised when their wife looks for comfort and support elsewhere. And NO, that does not forgive what the wife does, but it goes part of the way toward mitigating the sentence.

And then there are the fairly large number of married folks who simply can not afford a divorce. That's almost never taken into account. It should be. A divorce most anywhere in the US will cost at least a thousand bucks or more. And if a lawyer is involved, costs can be $10,000 and up.
Not everyone can afford that, especially when the costs of setting up a second household are included.

Men (and sometimes women) shaft their spouses in divorce by hiding assets. That's happened in my own family. It is an open secret and yet there is not enough money for the shafted spouse to hire investigators to attempt to prove it.

Before we pronounce judgement on folks here, we need to hear them and we need to deal with them with compassion even if we feel that they should be kicked to the curb.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

vellocet said:


> That site was created by a woman who got caught cheating.
> 
> WS's there are given great latitude. If as a BS, if you say something about a WS that the mods(whom a majority of are/were WS's), then you will get the boot. Not like its a loss. That site is just as much of a cesspool as LS.
> 
> ...


I take your point. Sometimes though it takes a little while for the reality of what was done to sink in to the WS's brain. Which is why I advocate waiting a while to give the BS (who is usually the one here) a chance to listen to what the WS is saying.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> I know that I've been guilty of being to harsh here on a WS from time to time. I've even apologized to a few afterwards.
> 
> I also know that TAM is a better place when we have WS's posting here. I don't always agree with, or even liked what they had posted, but I appreciate that they would risk the backlash and post anyway.
> 
> ...


Don't have a clue what she wrote that caused her to be banned. I didn't even know until I read this, she was banned.

I truly am sorry to know this. I don't care if her thoughts were controversial. I have to say, I did enjoy reading them, whether I agreed or not. Sometimes, we need to challenge our thinking.

I hope she is able to come back.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Headspin said:


> the problem you have imo in bucketloads is trying to achieve a _balance_ in all of this. You're concentrating on it all being 'fair' - the betrayed feels 'this', so, the wayward can feel 'this' etc etc yes "lets all sit down after the act and sensibly discuss matters" .............
> 
> for me that's where you re' completely wrong in all of this
> 
> ...


Spot on.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> And then there are the fairly large number of married folks who simply can not afford a divorce. That's almost never taken into account. It should be. A divorce most anywhere in the US will cost at least a thousand bucks or more. And if a lawyer is involved, costs can be $10,000 and up.
> Not everyone can afford that, especially when the costs of setting up a second household are included.


Are you saying this should be taken into consideration as justification for infidelity?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> I read posts from much earlier in TAM in which BH not long after Dday were engaged in discussion with WW who were trying to decided how to clean up their lives. These discussion were awkward but healthy because the BH gained insight into the factors that contributed to breakdown of their marriages.
> 
> The WW, on the other hand, got to read about the pain that their own husbands felt or would feel.
> 
> ...



Reduction is sometimes necessary for a kinder, gentler TAM. It's sometimes too difficult to process things that are not reduced, while going through all the turmoil.

The one thing about those chemicals, and I comment because I am one who writes about them is, they are true for the married couple, just as they are for the waywards. Sometimes, scientific understanding, makes things less emotional and more palatable. That's partially the reason I present those true arguments. 

Hopefully they take some of the emotion out of the mess and cause the BS to start to think of other things than just the betrayal and the emotions surrounding it. Maybe it will let them have some freedom to forgive the WS? That's my goal in that.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Paladin said:


> The concept that the kind of compartmentalization that affects WS can literally allow them to ignore the fact that they are married, and make their spouses non existent while they are engaging in affair behavior, is lost on you.


You talk about "compartmentalization" like it's some sort of disease or condition. Right. Like the "fog". We're talking about grown men and women here who make a *conscious choice* to lie, cheat, deceive, betray and destroy the lives of their families, for their own selfish pleasure.

If you need to tell yourself that's the case to get through your R, then go for it. But I don't buy it, not for one second.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Healer said:


> Are you saying this should be taken into consideration as justification for infidelity?


The problem with attitudes like yours, and spewing out meaningless one liners, is the desperation to be "right" as if this was a contest and getting the "right" answer makes you a "winner."

People like you are constantly accusing others of "justifying" infidelity, when it is perfectly clear to anyone capable of rational thought, logic, reason, and understanding, that the viewpoints you constantly attack are in no way "justifying" anything.

You quoted a post, then responded with "Spot on," even though the post you quote is advocating an eye for an eye, or a score sheet approach to life. The concept of two wrongs dont make a right is not abstract or foreign, that kind of approach solves nothing, and only serves to perpetuate hate, anger, and emotional stagnation.

"This was unfair, so I will be unfair in response."

I am actually glad that you and Headspin chose this, of all threads, as a place to make your stand. I am really curious to see how this discussion plays out, and if the CWI status quo for "revenge for what was done to me by proxy," will gain any support.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> Why not divorce instead? Because she doesn't hate the guy. He's often a good husband and a good provider, but she needs some breadcrumbs, some affection, some attention.


Did you pull this from the Cheater's Justification Handbook?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Rubicon said:


> I think there are a number of things that could change but it is up to the members to do it and that won't happen. I'll add three big ones I think would make a world of difference.
> 
> Third, Ban anyone who tries to bully someone with an opposing opinion from a thread. I've had members who disagreed with me try to tell me to stop posting in particular threads. The site is public, all valid members are entitled to post so long as the rules are followed. If you try to push someone out of a thread you should be banned, simple as that. That should be a rule and enforced by the mods.
> 
> There are other smaller issues for sure but those three should be standard rules of conduct. They would make a big difference.


I think this one could be put into practice, but it would take some reporting, which is available right now. It's up to them to consider what is following rules and what is not. I don't think anyone, including myself, has ever not been given a pass sometimes. It's up to the discretion of the mods and basically, should be.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

There's lots of baggage and resentment floating around any forum like this. 

I've found that having sweeping generalizations or condescending retorts means I need to back away from TAM for a little bit until I can be useful again. The quickest way to make someone NOT listen to a darn thing I say is to attack or belittle them.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

I have a thread somewhere in CWI, asking what our views about infidelity were BEFORE it happened to us. The thing with hindsight, it‘s always 20/20. 

It‘s so easy to say after being cheated on, “How could you not see what it would do to me/us/the kids etc.?“

In reality, they didn‘t and until it actaully happened, you probably didn‘t either.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Miss Taken said:


> I have a thread somewhere in CWI, asking what our views about infidelity were BEFORE it happened to us. The thing with hindsight, it‘s always 20/20.
> 
> It‘s so easy to say after being cheated on, “How could you not see what it would do to me/us/the kids etc.?“
> 
> In reality, they didn‘t and until it actaully happened, you probably didn‘t either.


Well, I'll only speak for myself, but I knew far before I was cheated on that it destroys lives, destroys families. Seems pretty obvious to me. That was a huge contributing factor to me remaining faithful for my entire marriage. I knew if I cheated it would destroy my wife and burn my family to the ground.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

What would a kinder gentler TAM look like...... SI 



PS: LS is so intellectually stagnant I don't think we can put it in the same league as TAM.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Miss Taken said:


> I have a thread somewhere in CWI, asking what our views about infidelity were BEFORE it happened to us. The thing with hindsight, it‘s always 20/20.
> 
> It‘s so easy to say after being cheated on, “How could you not see what it would do to me/us/the kids etc.?“
> 
> In reality, they didn‘t and until it actaully happened, you probably didn‘t either.


If I'm honest I didn't need hindsight. I've always known the sh!t that goes with adultery. 

In my life like most I've been in situations where I had a choice, where even early flirting puts you on that place that is admittedly quite 'exciting' but you know, you can feel, you're treading thin ice and there's always a specific moment a hammer in the head moment where you know you could now go on and make 'something' happen with the 'magic moment' response, whatever that might be 

Did I ever falter ? No because I knew like most of us just when that moment had arrived and blocked it off

I'm not special, I'm not some superhuman sensitive bloke who had to summon up the strength of Samson to fight off adoring woman, I just thought "this is not right this is dangerous I have a gorgeous woman at home who I am still in love with and is the love of my life why would I want to fk all that up and rip my kids lives up too"? 

So of course I did not fk that up. I left those situations as maybe "in another lifetime I'd be with you but not this one" 

Here's the crack tho - it was easy, there was no problem or difficulty about it at all 

........just as most of us find


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Headspin said:


> I'll ask this - how does a wayward - an adulterer, (not meaning to offend but that's the correct terminology isn't it)
> get to understand the gravity of their appalling actions if they do not know, are not told how appalling it is. How?
> 
> Answer me that.? If they don't understand the gravity of it how are they going to 'get it'. Are you going to spend half a month in a thousand posts hinting at how abysmal their actions were ??


Not all wayward spouses need to have it pointed out to them that what they did was "appalling" because many of them already know it. (Yes, some are clueless, but those are the ones who are probably too far gone to be reached by any amount of preaching or screeching.) We BS's are entitled to our anger and we need to express it, but rage doesn't do us any good either. Spewing hate isn't cathartic, isn't physically healthy (check your blood pressure after you've typed out a rousing put-em-in-their-place post), and does nothing to facilitate communication.

And there's a huge difference between being collateral damage and being the direct target of the WS's unfaithful behavior. As we so often remind new BS's, it isn't about you. You did nothing to cause this or deserve this. Your marriage may not have been perfect - and there is no such thing as a perfect marriage - but on the scale from rotten to pretty fantastic and everything in between, there is no marriage that ever needed infidelity as a "solution" to any problem, no matter how big or small it might be. So the idea that a cheating spouse is in a planful way thinking about "dealing" with some problem concerning us, or thinking much about us at all, is ridiculous. There may be a tiny fraction of cheaters - some truly vicious sociopaths - who actually think "I'm going to really hurt my wife/husband by texting and having sex with this person - HAHA!" but that's got to be incredibly rare.

More likely, waywards are NOT dealing with something. Because that's how compartmentalizing works - not facing something difficult head on, tucking thoughts about certain subjects away while you go about other things. WE were not the center of their universe during the periods of time when they were being unfaithful - far from it. So we do get hurt - terribly - by their actions, but most didn't set out to cause these wounds to us. Of course, they "should have known" it would hurt, but I think most of us BS's will admit WE had no idea the damage would be this great.

My spouse has been remorseful and expresses it often. He needed help in understanding how the trauma caused me to think about the affair daily, and what specifically he could do to help me heal. He didn't need help in understanding how appalling his cheating was. I don't need to beat him over the head with that, and I suspect most WS's don't need that either.


----------



## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

*Re: Re: What would a kinder gentler TAM look like?*



Healer said:


> Well, I'll only speak for myself, but I knew far before I was cheated on that it destroys lives, destroys families. Seems pretty obvious to me. That was a huge contributing factor to me remaining faithful for my entire marriage. I knew if I cheated it would destroy my wife and burn my family to the ground.


Destroy your wife and burn your family to the ground. That‘s an assumption. Would it hurt her? Probably, without a doubt. Would it have resulted in divorce for you if you had cheated instead of her? There‘s no way of knowing that. Generally speaking women are more open to reconciling than are men.

Even knowing that it does destroy some families, didn‘t necessarily prepare you for the reality of the pain caused by your wife‘s affair. Even knowing you may have been hurt by it didn‘t necessarily prepare your wife for the amount of pain she‘d actually cause or the consequences that would result. 

Until it happened yours and her reactions and potential consequences were hypothetical regardless of how accurate they may have been. 

Before it happened to me, I knew I‘d be hurt. I didn‘t know how destroyed (your word) I would feel...and I did feel that way for some time but don‘t anymore. I also thought beforehand that I would leave should it happen to me and never come back. However, I did leave but am reconciling atm.

Having said that - is it accurate to say a cheater is capable of having some foresight, before cheating? Sure. But complete foresight and understanding of the aftermath to come? I don‘t think so. I didn‘t cheat but even I couldn‘t foresee all of the consequences that now seem obvious to me.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Just the opposite happened to me. I was faithful, but not guiltless. She and all who helped her, nearly had my death to consider. If I can be civil with WS', it should be possible for someone who has had the opposite experience, albeit, not easy. I struggle.
> 
> *I think those who show remorse, and don't blame their choices on their spouses' actions in the marriage, are those who should be considered the most admirable. Likewise in the opposite direction. *
> 
> All this is highly unlikely, and only truly possible after education and reflection.


Well surely that is the crux of all this isn't it?

"Those that show remorse" ? that's the problem most of them don't 

I have only ever seen a handful on here that did or tried that and I have ended up begrudgingly having gained respect for them for their courage for their penitence for their contrition.

But it is a handful.

That's the point - if it were many more we would not be having this conversation


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

WARNING!

Keep posting respectful. Further disrespectful posting and name calling will not be tolerated.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Miss Taken said:


> Destroy your wife and burn your family to the ground. That‘s an assumption. Would it hurt her? Probably, without a doubt. Would it have resulted in divorce for you if you had cheated instead of her? There‘s no way of knowing that. Generally speaking women are more open to reconciling than are men.
> 
> Even knowing that it does destroy some families, didn‘t necessarily prepare you for the reality of the pain caused by your wife‘s affair. Even knowing you may have been hurt by it didn‘t necessarily prepare your wife for the amount of pain she‘d actually cause or the consequences that would result.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure I understand your point. You could say that with absolutely anything in life. I didn't realize just how much damage it would cause when I stuck my hand in the garbage disposal until I actually did it. Ok...

Knowing it would destroy my wife and burn my family to the ground was not an assumption. She drilled that into my head the entire 16 years we were together. She accused me of cheating our entire marriage and told my constantly that cheating would be the worst thing I could ever do to her and it would be an instant deal breaker. This was indoctrinated into me.

So, you can speak for yourself, but I knew exactly what cheating would do to me, to her, to our family. And I was right. Could I anticipate what that pain would actually feel like? No. Just like I wouldn't know what it actually feels like to stick my hand in the garbage disposal until I did it. But I know it would hurt like hell and have tremendously negative consequences, and that's pretty much all I need to know not to do it. 

Again, not sure what exactly your point is. Is it the generalization that you don't know what something feels like until you experience it directly/personally?


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

*Re: Re: What would a kinder gentler TAM look like?*



Healer said:


> I'm not sure I understand your point. You could say that with absolutely anything in life. I didn't realize just how much damage it would cause when I stuck my hand in the garbage disposal until I actually did it. Ok...
> 
> Knowing it would destroy my wife and burn my family to the ground was not an assumption. She drilled that into my head the entire 16 years we were together. She accused me of cheating our entire marriage and told my constantly that cheating would be the worst thing I could ever do to her and it would be an instant deal breaker. This was indoctrinated into me.
> 
> ...


I wouldn‘t consider it a generalization. Seems pretty logical to me.

The thing I don‘t agree with is charging a wayward spouse with as much malice of knowing EXACTLY, without a doubt what the consequences would be to them, to their spouse, to their kids and any other existential relationships to the marriage. I‘m not sure if it was you or someone else that seemed to imply that, (I‘m on a phone so can‘t look back to quote it). But that‘s what I took issue with. We aren‘t fortune tellers.

I can‘t and don‘t attempt to speak for you or your wife or anyone else for that matter. What I can speak from is my experiences. My spouse and I had similar conversations about infidelity before he cheated, from the first few days of our courtship even. Still, what happened during and after the cheating was not in line with the things we assumed would happen or what we would do.

Even when he cheated, he was certain he wanted out. He *knew* before and during what he thought he‘d do, what I‘d do, how he‘d feel etc. He was wrong.


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## owl6118 (Jan 30, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> Don't have a clue what she wrote that caused her to be banned. I didn't even know until I read this, she was banned.
> 
> I truly am sorry to know this. I don't care if her thoughts were controversial. I have to say, I did enjoy reading them, whether I agreed or not. Sometimes, we need to challenge our thinking.
> 
> I hope she is able to come back.


She isn't banned. Recently whenever she posted she got the "you're a lying cheater forever" lecture from (mostly) new male BSs. She decided, wisely, she had better things to do and took an indefinate leave of absence.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

*Re: Re: What would a kinder gentler TAM look like?*



owl6118 said:


> She isn't banned. Recently whenever she posted she got the "you're a lying cheater forever" lecture from (mostly) new male BSs. She decided, wisely, she had better things to do and took an indefinate leave of absence.


Case in point why self-moderation is important even when you‘re a BS.

Like EI, MJA, CSS, AC, Maricha, and others, Regret‘s input is valuable to the forum. But self-serving anger and projection shoots first, asks questions later and would have that silenced.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Miss Taken said:


> I wouldn‘t consider it a generalization. Seems pretty logical to me.
> 
> The thing I don‘t agree with is charging a wayward spouse with as much malice of knowing EXACTLY, without a doubt what the consequences would be to them, to their spouse, to their kids and any other existential relationships to the marriage. I‘m not sure if it was you or someone else that seemed to imply that, (I‘m on a phone so can‘t look back to quote it). But that‘s what I took issue with. We aren‘t fortune tellers.
> 
> ...


You and I are fundamentally different then. I expect adults to be aware of the consequences of their actions, in a general sense. I expect the people who work for me to know if they steal from the company and don't do their job, they will be fired. I expect my friends to know if they stick their hand in the garbage disposal, they will suffer a severe physical injury. I expect my wife to know that if she has an affair, it will result in the destruction of our marriage and consequently our family.

I knew and know the consequences of cheating. The "EXACT" consequences? Well, now we're really splitting hairs and getting into a semantic argument. I knew, without a doubt, that if I were to cheat, it would destroy my family. 

And expecting a spouse to know this is not "malice". It's about common sense, common decency, cause and effect, and consequences. 

Again, not sure what your argument is. If you don't know that screwing someone who is not your spouse, lying, cheating and deceiving, putting your spouse at risk for STD's is going to have extremely bad consequences for all involved, then you're not a fully developed, fully functioning adult. And you aren't mature or developed enough to be married and have children in the first place.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

827Aug said:


> WARNING!
> 
> Keep posting respectful. Further disrespectful posting and name calling will not be tolerated.


This is ridiculous, you've taken out some good posts even if they are near the line 

Why is that? what was SO bad about this dialogue? 

What has happened to 'giving as good as you get'? 

There was only a couple of comments from all sides that were a little harsh nothing significantly outrageous 

No of the comments impacted badly on the main thrust of the ongoing discussion in any way 

I've seen many threads that needed a heavy moderating hand but this was hardly one of them


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Obviously not....


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Obviously not....


Well no not at all now the dialogue looks disjointed and lacks sense 

There was nothing in any of it that hurt anybody, some very salient posts actually 

It was a bit 'hot under the collar' but nothing in any of it that would be a problem, no harm in any of it

Ah well I'll probably get banned now for voicing my dissatisfaction


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Paladin said:


> The problem with attitudes like yours, and spewing out meaningless one liners, is the desperation to be "right" as if this was a contest and getting the "right" answer makes you a "winner."
> 
> People like you are constantly accusing others of "justifying" infidelity, when it is perfectly clear to anyone capable of rational thought, logic, reason, and understanding, that the viewpoints you constantly attack are in no way "justifying" anything.
> 
> ...


Incredible. **** like this remains but my post addressing his unwarranted anger towards BS, with no cussing, no insults, gets pulled down.

Take off the kid gloves, mods. We're all adults here. Or at least I though we were. 

The cliqueness here is utterly nauseating.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

I think my points were clear enough. You are free to your own interpretation of them but it is not what I was saying.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

It would look exactly like TAM, but perhaps with ten seconds thought before making the wicked zinger post that might have seemed like such a good idea when you posted it.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Healer said:


> .... I expect adults to be aware of the consequences of their actions, in a general sense. I expect the people who work for me to know if they steal from the company and don't do their job, they will be fired. I expect my friends to know if they stick their hand in the garbage disposal, they will suffer a severe physical injury. I expect my wife to know that if she has an affair, it will result in the destruction of our marriage and consequently our family.


Healer, I pulled a snippet from your comment. 

My thoughts? I also hold people accountable as you do. I just don't think 100% of them are aware of the consequences until they are truly held accountable. Well that sucks for us doesn't it? 

If someone's mom and dad didn't hold them accountable growing up then they expect redo's and their spouse will be the recipient. I'm not removing the blame from the cheater but instead I just think there's more blame to go around.

On occasion, a spouse does something sh~tty to one person and then avoids doing it again. I've never cheated on a spouse but I've made other mistakes. I was also cheated on with my first marriage and I divorced her. 

So why do I think people can change? My first marriage was 6 years to an entitled, angry, serial cheater who cheated 4 years in. My second marriage however is going on two decades to a good woman. That's not by chance or luck. It's because I learned what to avoid. Granted, some qualities that cause a person to cheat are fixed and therefore don't change. Still there have to be some who make that mistake and then change.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Headspin said:


> Well surely that is the crux of all this isn't it?
> 
> "Those that show remorse" ? that's the problem *most *of them don't


What can you possibly cite to support that statement? Is it possible that the number of remorseful spouses are greatly underrepresented here? Taking into account the prevailing attitudes in CWI about what kind of people WS/fWS are, could it be possible that they simply do not post here? 




Headspin said:


> I have only ever seen a handful on here that did or tried that and I have ended up begrudgingly having gained respect for them for their courage for their penitence for their contrition.
> 
> But it is a handful.
> 
> That's the point - if it were many more we would not be having this conversation


Those that remain here, at times, do so at their own expense, and I suspect the main reason for that is guilt, or the need for encouragement, support, and some external validation about doing the right thing.

As I alluded to in my first post here, and as Amp expanded in more detail, moving on from here is a natural process of healing for couples, because continued exposure to the raw pain and emotions being expressed by people who are still hurting and have unresolved issues, becomes counterproductive and eventually toxic to reconciliation. 

This conversation is about the attitudes expressed, supported and perpetuated on TAM/CWI and what this place would look like if there was more balance, (you seem to hate that word for some reason) less hostility and hypocrisy (ie humans a fallible and we should cut them a break when they eviscerate a total stranger, but "cheaters" <or use whatever label suits> are scum by default and must be held to account regardless of previously stated notions of fallibility) The number of remorseful spouses posting here would not change the need to have this discussion. 



Healer said:


> Knowing it would destroy my wife and burn my family to the ground was not an assumption. She drilled that into my head the entire 16 years we were together. She accused me of cheating our entire marriage and told my constantly that cheating would be the worst thing I could ever do to her and it would be an instant deal breaker. This was indoctrinated into me.


Research into infidelity suggests that affairs are the end result, or symptom, of larger problems in a relationship. I've said many times that affairs dont occur in a vacuum, and both spouses must examine the dysfunction leading up to the affair (if they want to reconcile, or avoid similar outcomes in the future). You took issue with that point of view and labeled it "justification" for an affair. When you look back and examine your relationship, does anything stand out as being problematic? 

Do you think its normal for a spouse to "drill" their points of view about infidelity, and constantly accuse the other of cheating for 16 years?



Headspin said:


> So, you can speak for yourself, but I knew exactly what cheating would do to me, to her, to our family. And I was right. Could I anticipate what that pain would actually feel like? No. Just like I wouldn't know what it actually feels like to stick my hand in the garbage disposal until I did it. But I know it would hurt like hell and have tremendously negative consequences, and that's pretty much all I need to know not to do it.


How many people that cheat, before actually doing so, would say that they are not the cheating type and that they would never do it? The human brain can, and often does, allow a person to override common sense, long held beliefs, and "known" consequences to breaking a commitment. 

Dieting is a good example of this concept. People know if they cheat on their diet, it will be counter productive, or in cases of diabetics, potentially dangerous, but diets often fail.

The concept is known as "ego depletion" if you want to do any reading about it, a good author on the topic is Roy E. Baumeister. 




Healer said:


> You and I are fundamentally different then. I expect adults to be aware of the consequences of their actions, in a general sense. I expect the people who work for me to know if they steal from the company and don't do their job, they will be fired.


Unless your business is in a state that has "At Will Employment" you are required to maintain an employee manual/handbook that spells out, in clear language, the rules of conduct, job responsibilities, and other things related to working for you. If you fire someone for "not doing their job" without having such a manual easily accessible to them, you leave yourself open to lawsuits for wrongful termination. What you consider "common sense," may be completely alien to someone else. 

'The 5 Languages of Love' is often recommended reading here on TAM. The book discusses how different communication styles can be for spouses, and that it takes work to actually be understood by each other. 



Healer said:


> I knew and know the consequences of cheating. The "EXACT" consequences? Well, now we're really splitting hairs and getting into a semantic argument. I knew, without a doubt, that if I were to cheat, it would destroy my family.


See above about "Ego Depletion"




Healer said:


> And expecting a spouse to know this is not "malice". It's about common sense, common decency, cause and effect, and consequences.
> 
> Again, not sure what your argument is. If you don't know that screwing someone who is not your spouse, lying, cheating and deceiving, putting your spouse at risk for STD's is going to have extremely bad consequences for all involved, then you're not a fully developed, fully functioning adult. And you aren't mature or developed enough to be married and have children in the first place.


Unless your boundaries and the the consequences for not upholding them, are laid out, communicated, fully understood, and reenforced through relationship building, all the talk about common decency, cause and effect and common sense, boils down to making assumptions and hoping for the best.

Edit:

Did not see these, and did not want to double post



Headspin said:


> What has happened to 'giving as good as you get'?
> 
> No of the comments impacted badly on the main thrust of the ongoing discussion in any way
> 
> I've seen many threads that needed a heavy moderating hand but this was hardly one of them


All the talk about "all of us being adults" and then insisting on "giving as good as you get," puts the two concepts at odds and speaks to the "eye for an eye" and let me "give a stranger as good as my WS gave me" attitude/culture being explored here.

How many times did you click the report button in those threads that needed moderation?



Headspin said:


> Well no not at all now the dialogue looks disjointed and lacks sense


I just reread the entire thread, and dont think its disjointed at all.



Healer said:


> Incredible. **** like this remains but my post addressing his unwarranted anger towards BS, with no cussing, no insults, gets pulled down.
> 
> Take off the kid gloves, mods. We're all adults here. Or at least I though we were.
> 
> The cliqueness here is utterly nauseating.


I hate BS because I took issue with you labeling any attempt to examine the role each spouse played in the dysfunction that lead to the implosion of the marriage and infidelity as "justifying an affair?" Because in your eyes my experience as a fBS is invalid due to the fact that my spouse and I reconciled?

Adults dont need their fists to solve problems, they have brains and are able to talk.

The "cliqueness" is only an issue when in disagreement with your point of view right? Or are you as equally nauseated when the "wolf packs" Amp talks about are on the 2x4 bandwagon?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Infidelity is wrong and a choice. There were plenty of things that each spouse did, before the infidelity, that led to the feelings which placed doubt about the love of their partner and the viability of the relationship in their minds, both spouses. One chose one option, the other did not, at least in this type of discussion. 

Would it be just as understandable if the BS went out and had an affair because they now believe their WS no longer loves them, even though they are in R? I don't think so, but that would be greater justification than the original, because the act of infidelity was present in the marriage before the former BS decided to pursue compassion and empathy elsewhere. 

Maybe you didn't know what you were headed for, but there was a point, when you knew what was about to happen and could just say no and get away. If not, it was rape and should have been reported to the police if you are a woman. If you are a man, just suck it up and make jokes about how you were raped by a woman and, "enjoyed", it.

ETA: It was brought to my attention that my last sentence reads like I have no compassion for a man who was raped. The remark was meant sarcastically, since I personally believe I was raped, and it was not fun at all. I did not like it in the least, but was laughed at by some I told, here at home and felt disbelief, even when I broke out in tears over the conversation. It was only women, who made me feel better. Many men, seemed to disagree that a man can be raped. 

I assumed that some knew this and that was a mistake. I apologize and would like to add this emoticon for clarification --->


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

edit: person quoted clarified meaning, my previous comments were not applicable


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

edited since the matter is settled.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Yikes this thread has taken some turns. The OP was/is an interesting one. Maybe we should focus on that?


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

edit: missed one, edited, no longer applicable


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Paladin said:


> What can you possibly cite to support that statement? Is it possible that the number of remorseful spouses are greatly underrepresented here? Taking into account the prevailing attitudes in CWI about what kind of people WS/fWS are, could it be possible that they simply do not post here? Those that remain here, at times, do so at their own expense, and I suspect the main reason for that is guilt, or the need for encouragement, support, and some external validation about doing the right thing.
> As I alluded to in my first post here, and as Amp expanded in more detail, moving on from here is a natural process of healing for couples, because continued exposure to the raw pain and emotions being expressed by people who are still hurting and have unresolved issues, becomes counterproductive and eventually toxic to reconciliation.
> This conversation is about the attitudes expressed, supported and perpetuated on TAM/CWI and what this place would look like if there was more balance, (you seem to hate that word for some reason) less hostility and hypocrisy (ie humans a fallible and we should cut them a break when they eviscerate a total stranger, but "cheaters" <or use whatever label suits> are scum by default and must be held to account regardless of previously stated notions of fallibility) The number of remorseful spouses posting here would not change the need to have this discussion.
> Research into infidelity suggests that affairs are the end result, or symptom, of larger problems in a relationship. I've said many times that affairs dont occur in a vacuum, and both spouses must examine the dysfunction leading up to the affair (if they want to reconcile, or avoid similar outcomes in the future). You took issue with that point of view and labeled it "justification" for an affair. When you look back and examine your relationship, does anything stand out as being problematic?
> ...


In my whole time on here you will be the first time that I do not respond to a post directed at me (and others)

In order to do that I have to care about what you say and what you think. I no longer do so I haven't read your post because (no doubt it's yet another epiphany trying desperately to put others down) it would be a waste of my time. 

I think you are particularly fond of the sound of your own voice far too much and as such I will not waste another second on you.

No doubt this post will be taken down as well, as it incredibly will be perceived as some monstrous stinging attack upon you that shocks the world of forums to its very core.

This place is getting bloodywell ridiculous


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Miss Taken said:


> Yikes this thread has taken some turns. The OP was/is an interesting one. Maybe we should focus on that?


we were trying to

...as you can now see


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I have to be honest. I hesitate to jump in here and speak at all, because I feel like I'm stepping deliberately on a hornet's nest. But I want to at least put in my experience and see if this might help. 

My first H cheated on me. Before I discovered it, I would have sworn up one side and down the other that "OTHER COUPLES may have that happen to them, but what we have is different than them and it will never happen to us." In hindsight I now know I was in deep denial, and I grew a lot healthier, mentally, after his affair even though I was not able to save my marriage. I was the one who was betrayed, and I fully lived every bit of pain and anguish. 

Thus, in my second marriage I made what I thought was better choices in my spouse, and I was in a healthier, mutual relationship. Again, before my affair, if you had asked me, I would have sworn up one side and down another that "I would NEVER, and I mean *NE-VER*, do to my worst enemy what had been done to me." I would have been absolutely, 100% positive that I did not have it in me to be a cheater. It was inconceivable.

What I did not realize is that there were ****** inside me and inside our marriage that made it "within the realm of conceivability." In my opinion, for there to be a meaningful reconciliation, there has to be some serious thought put to the question of "Why?" Even though I know there is no good answer, I felt like I had to strive for an understanding of myself to see where the weaknesses were and understanding of my spouse and marriage to see where weaknesses were. I needed to figure out where I needed to reinforce, and where I need to work. 

So in my personal story, I loved my Dear Hubby dearly. We had a year where I lost a baby. As you might imagine, I MOURNED that loss--it hit me hard. Dear Hubby also mourned but his grief and mine were different, and to me it felt like he shut me out and closed me out (and to be clear, he's a thinker, so his way of mourning is to think about it, and once he has "reached a conclusion" so to speak, he's able to come out and interact). So I was grieving and hurting, and I felt abandoned. Next, we found out, at doc appointments due to the loss, that we were no longer able to have any other children. HUGE DOUBLE WHAMMY! We were not young, but I am younger than he is, and I think it hit me worse in a way because I wasn't quite ready to think of myself as a menopausal, dried up old prune! (Not that women in menopause ARE but that was what I thought of myself.) I felt DEAD and like my womanliness was gone...and at that same time my Dear Hubby was pretty much non-responsive. 

So you've heard this story. He was ignoring me, so I went to play a game by myself while he did whatever he did. That was my first mistake, right there. I thought "Hey it's okay to have outside interests and have my own friends, right?" but the part I missed (just by a little) was that it was not good for our marriage to NOT INCLUDE Dear Hubby. I didn't intend to exclude him--in fact I really wanted him to like and enjoy my little accomplishments in the game, but he still sort of ignored me lost in his own world of thought. 

Now what if I had come to TAM right then and thought, "My husband is really hurting me. I have tried talking to him. I don't know what to do! I started playing this game, and it makes me feel better. " And that's it-- haven't cheated yet?????? 

On TAM as it is right now, I think I'd have about a 99% chance of being called some nasty names, being 2x4 "the truth", being accused of blaming my Dear Hubby, etc. rather than someone like Regret or EI or MrsAdams or any of the other former Disloyal Spouses having a chance to GET TO ME and say "Hey I hear ya that you're hurting, but you need to know something. What you are choosing may seem innocent now, and maybe you haven't done anything yet, but you are on a road that leads to DEVASTATION! Seriously, you have no idea the amount of pain you are very close to inflicting on yourself and your spouse and your kids if you continue down this path, and I have to strongly encourage you to please, PLEASE stop and do _this_ instead. I know you may feel like you've tried before, and I know you are really hurting, but adding more hurt won't fix it--_this _might! You feel rejected/shut out (whatever) right? If you took the time you are investing in the game and put that into building the happy marriage you want, guess what? It can be done! But not if you are hiding yourself and your thought and feelings from your spouse. When you said you tried to talk to him before, may I ask, what exactly did you do? Did you _do this_, or did you do something else?" 

See, I truly do understand that most Loyal Spouses think they could NEVER, *EVER *cheat. I thought that! If you knew me before my affair, I honestly suspect you would have thought that. My character is generally honest and open, and generally very dependable and committed. So when I was cheating it was as close to 180 different from 'who I am as a person' than I'd say about anyone on the planet. It's just NOT who I am!! And yet I DID CHEAT. And it wasn't because of something my husband "did" or "didn't do." I think it was because I am imperfect and the perfect storm came along and I was not prepared. I didn't have the tools to deal with it. 

And one of the reasons I am speaking up here and now is because I do wish people who came on either right before they cheat or as they are beginning the EA were not run off. There are people here who MIGHT be able to talk sense to them! I understand that at first their reasoning would be incorrect (illogical), and what they need is not "YOU ARE AN <insert derogatory name for an entire category of people here>!" but rather someone who'll say "Hey I can hear ya but what you are thinking is not logical. You missed a step. See it? Right here...and if you get back to that logical step, it leads you to doing the right thing which is _this_."

Now of course, some Disloyals will not want to hear it and will choose to cheat anyway, and we can't fix them. Shoot we can't fix any of them! But we sure can't do anything if they don't even stick around. If they stay and at least hear "Here's where your thought process is flawed. Here's where it's leading you. Your so-called friends are not telling you the truth: here's what it will really be like. If you don't want to go there, you can do _this_. Yep it's scary but you can do it! We will be here for ya. Go do the right thing."


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Still there have to be some who make that mistake and then change.


No ones is arguing that 'all cheats are the same' and 'nobody ever changes.' 

BUT it's damn rare that they do, we see it so often 

That seems to be the issue - if so many of them do come on here are remorseful and show contrition and true deep rooted urge to amend their ways then that would be easier to see but here's the factual pertinent question ..........where are they then?

Because most of the cheats coming on here are lacking in any of those qualities and are still in cake eating mode when their stories go up.

Unfortunately it does mean that the few who do display those qualities I've mentioned do get tarnished with the same brush and they get pissed off with that 

As unfortunate as that is they did in fact originally make the decision to cheat so it goes with the territory and that is not my or any betrayed spouses fault - it's theirs alone


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Each person has to inventory what they do.

infidelity is solely on the cheater and they can either learn from it or not. They have no moral ground to stand on afterwards. Some cheaters have a spouse that should have done better but there were other options than cheating.

EDTI: Fixed many syntax errors. Stupid wine is frying my brain I guess.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> I have to be honest. I hesitate to jump in here and speak at all, because I feel like I'm stepping deliberately on a hornet's nest. But I want to at least put in my experience and see if this might help.
> 
> My first H cheated on me. Before I discovered it, I would have sworn up one side and down the other that "OTHER COUPLES may have that happen to them, but what we have is different than them and it will never happen to us." In hindsight I now know I was in deep denial, and I grew a lot healthier, mentally, after his affair even though I was not able to save my marriage. I was the one who was betrayed, and I fully lived every bit of pain and anguish.
> 
> ...


No I would never cheat 

I know it to the core of my being


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Headspin said:


> No ones is arguing that 'all cheats are the same' and 'nobody ever changes.'
> 
> BUT it's damn rare that they do, we see it so often
> 
> ...


:iagree:
It's a small percentage of cheaters that don't justify why they did it.


----------



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Paladin said:


> When you look back and examine your relationship, does anything stand out as being problematic?
> 
> Do you think its normal for a spouse to "drill" their points of view about infidelity, and constantly accuse the other of cheating for 16 years?


Yes. Many, many things. Constantly being accused of cheating when I never did, for one. That was my stupidity - it's called "projection". But of course, with your obviously PHD level of understanding of human nature I'm assuming you know this. Normal? Well probably not. Again, she was cheating on me and projecting. Again - I'm telling you something I'm SURE you already know. 



> Research into infidelity suggests that affairs are the end result, or symptom, of larger problems in a relationship.


Ya think? Damn, you deserve an honorary Doctorate, son!



> Unless your business is in a state that has "At Will Employment" you are required to maintain an employee manual/handbook that spells out, in clear language, the rules of conduct, job responsibilities, and other things related to working for you. If you fire someone for "not doing their job" without having such a manual easily accessible to them, you leave yourself open to lawsuits for wrongful termination. What you consider "common sense," may be completely alien to someone else.


LOL. Duly noted. I didn't read your drivel about "ego deception", but I'll assume it's equally as riveting and on the mark as your psychoanalysis mojo and business law acumen.



> Unless your boundaries and the the consequences for not upholding them, are laid out, communicated, fully understood, and reenforced through relationship building, all the talk about common decency, cause and effect and common sense, boils down to making assumptions and hoping for the best.


Again, it was discussed to death and we both agreed infidelity would be an absolute deal breaker and the worst thing we could possibly do to each other, for 16 years. I agreed whole-heartedly and held up my end of the bargain. She did not.



> I hate BS because I took issue with you labeling any attempt to examine the role each spouse played in the dysfunction that lead to the implosion of the marriage and infidelity as "justifying an affair?" Because in your eyes my experience as a fBS is invalid due to the fact that my spouse and I reconciled?
> 
> Adults dont need their fists to solve problems, they have brains and are able to talk.
> 
> The "cliqueness" is only an issue when in disagreement with your point of view right? Or are you as equally nauseated when the "wolf packs" Amp talks about are on the 2x4 bandwagon?


I think you have serious anger towards BS because you see BS anger towards their WS as a projection of anger towards your WW. Just like you accuse BS of doing - projecting their anger towards their WS onto other WS. You see BS anger towards their WS as an attack on your WW and it pisses you off. You also take your own situation - in which you believe you were cheated on because of mental illness or some other uncontrollable affliction, and place that upon every other scenario. Paladins's woman cheated on him because she had mental issues and therefore wasn't accountable. Therefore that's the case for all other BS. 

It's painfully clear. Your wife *****d around on you but you've justified it by her being ****ed up in the head and so really, it's not her fault. But your ***** of a wife isn't the same as mine (or maybe she is??). Mine was just a selfish, cruel ****. And minus the "****" reference, she has admitted this and admitted to being a horrible wife to me. So get off your high horse, you condescending little prick. Some people are just ****ty people. Keep a close eye on that wife of yours. She'll probably spread for another dude again. But we both know it won't be her fault. It'll be yours. 


Nice knowing y'all. Adios.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I think the last time I actually went into a thread started by a woman who had not yet gotten physical, well, I can't remember when that was. There was only one that I can remember, where a woman was justifying trying to reconcile with her husband, after cheating on thim because of what he had done, and only wanted to reconcile for the money he brought to the marriage. Generally, I stay away from those and stick to the men's threads because I don't know the women's side of those things. 

I don't doubt those threads are here. I just haven't run across them, at least that I can remember. I know one I commented, "good job, ladies", or something like that. The women there were holding her to task and I thought it was well founded. I read the entire thread to that point. Is that one you are talking about?

ETA: Actually, I think it was a man, the ladies were holding to task when I commented. Later, his wife entered the thread, but I don't believe I made further comment(s).


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> .....
> 
> On TAM as it is right now, I think I'd have about a 99% chance of being called some nasty names, being 2x4 "the truth", being accused of blaming my Dear Hubby, etc. rather than someone like Regret or EI or MrsAdams or any of the other former Disloyal Spouses having a chance to GET TO ME and say "Hey I hear ya that you're hurting, but you need to know something. What you are choosing may seem innocent now, and maybe you haven't done anything yet, but you are on a road that leads to DEVASTATION! Seriously, you have no idea the amount of pain you are very close to inflicting on yourself and your spouse and your kids if you continue down this path, and I have to strongly encourage you to please, PLEASE stop and do _this_ instead. I know you may feel like you've tried before, and I know you are really hurting, but adding more hurt won't fix it--_this _might! You feel rejected/shut out (whatever) right? If you took the time you are investing in the game and put that into building the happy marriage you want, guess what? It can be done! But not if you are hiding yourself and your thought and feelings from your spouse. When you said you tried to talk to him before, may I ask, what exactly did you do? Did you _do this_, or did you do something else?"
> 
> .......


I dont agree with that 

99% ? not imo. Ive seen plenty of threads where people have tried talking sense into a potential wayward. My as a betrayed spouse as opposed to a waywards advice will not be significantly different. We'd both argue they are about to make the biggest mistake they will ever make. There may be some people who may make that point more vociferously but still legitimately

I could be wrong but this all pervading feeling that a wayward or potential wayward has this weak sensibility that's going to make them run off and cry really does get up my nose

It does I admit it happily 

Us betrayed seem to have to be all stoic loyal strong and fair and take whatever sh!t is dished out to us some for years on end but you waywards (not having a dig at you personally) are all tender, sensitive and really dont like to be shouted at *even though you are the ones responsible for ripping up lives at will and by choice* 

You have to admit it's pretty galling for 'us' to keep seeing this as the truth when it so obviously to me at any rate, is not


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Headspin said:


> In my whole time on here you will be the first time that I do not respond to a post directed at me (and others)
> 
> In order to do that I have to care about what you say and what you think. I no longer do so I haven't read your post...


Is this some kind of double speak? I am trying hard to wrap my brain around how you could quote me, and respond by saying you arent responding? 

I actually hope this post stays up as it provides good insight into what kind of person you are. 


On topic:

I was a member of a good international forum that used a reputation system. Members were allowed to leave reputation ratings and were required to comment on why, including the quality, usefulness, impact and other factors of a post. 

A user could add or remove as much as 5 points of reputation, the total number of points a user could add or take away was based on the users reputation level, and other factors. The reputation comments and the amount of points added or removed were visible, but not who left them. 

All rep comments were reviewed by moderators (the only thing I would worry about with TAM as it requires a lot of work and I dont think the number of mods TAM currently has should be expected to do that much without help) and the moderators could decide if the rating/comments were fair and in line with the rules for leaving rep.

New users start with 0 rep and need certain rep power to do things like PM, post in certain sections, etc. If user rep fell below a certain threshold( negative reputation -25 whatever number), they would be temp banned, with the possibility of returning and earning positive rep. 

I found the overall quality of the posts in that forum far exceeded any forum Ive ever been on before. Posts with the highest rep counts usually contained well structured arguments free of bias supported by citation to peer reviewed studies, papers, and other publications. They also served as a model for new members on how to conduct themselves and what was considered quality additions.

Members were required to use the reputation system as much as possible, and reputation trade was against the rules. A user had to add or remove reputation to at least 20 posts made by different users before being able to add or remove rep form the same user to prevent grudges and reputation stalking.

Users with chronic bad reputation did not make much of an impact on discussion because they were either always banned, or ignored.

One liner posts were frowned upon and negatively repped often. Post that attacked others, or added nothing useful to a discussion were also heavily neg repped. 

In essence, the community policed the standard and quality of the posts with reputation ratings, under the review of moderators, using clearly defined guidelines.

Just a though for helping curb some of this nonsense.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

*Re: Re: What would a kinder gentler TAM look like?*



2ntnuf said:


> Count me offended by what I considered being raped, and not being taken seriously by many, just a little more offensive.


I‘m sorry that happened to you. I know male SA is real. I also know that there are a lot of ignorant “can‘t rape the willing“ attitudes when the person is male. I would hate for my boys to endure that only to be mocked and laughed at. Talk about insult to injury in the worst of ways.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

In fact as I have never used an ignore button could somebody tell me where on this site it is, can't see it atm (how does it work on here)

Edit : okay found it - job done


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Miss Taken said:


> I‘m sorry that happened to you. I know male SA is real. I also know that there are a lot of ignorant “can‘t rape the willing“ attitudes when the person is male. I would hate for my boys to endure that only to be mocked and laughed at. Talk about insult to injury in the worst of ways.


Thanks. Unless the thread was deleted, the details are here somewhere. I may even have deleted my posts. It wasn't fun to talk about. I remember crying as I typed. 

I edited my post to reflect my mistaken belief that it would be read sarcastically.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Headspin said:


> In fact as I have never used an ignore button could somebody tell me where on this site it is, can't see it atm (how does it work on here)
> 
> Edit : okay found it - job done


Go to the link above Uesr CP ( User Control Panel ).

Search down and you will find EditIgnore List.

You can add people there. It is your friend.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Go to the link above Uesr CP ( User Control Panel ).
> 
> Search down and you will find EditIgnore List.
> 
> You can add people there. It is your friend.


Yeah just found it thanks Ent


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

*Re: Re: What would a kinder gentler TAM look like?*



2ntnuf said:


> Thanks. Unless the thread was deleted, the details are here somewhere. I may even have deleted my posts. It wasn't fun to talk about. I remember crying as I typed.
> 
> I edited my post to reflect my mistaken belief that it would be read sarcastically.


I had a feeling it was sarcasm. My other comment was in regards to all of the fighting going on in this thread. 

Again, sorry for your experience. That is really sh!tty. Naively I suppose but I‘d think one should expect more from a place like this.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Healer said:


> No hiding, just wanted to make sure you saw the ugly truth before it got deleted. I'll be gone right away, but you chew on that. I know you know it's true. It's hard, I know.


Another gem:



Healer said:


> You are, hands down, the biggest **** that has ever posted on this forum. I'm going to get perma-banned right away here - but I just wanted you to know, letting you know it, and the fact that you're fooling yourself about your cheating wife, was worth it. Good luck to you in the future - you'll need it, you sorry ****.


You may want to read the dictionary and figure out what the word "truth" means.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

A kinder gentler TAM would certainly NOT look like what this thread has become...sad...very very sad


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> Thanks. Unless the thread was deleted, the details are here somewhere. I may even have deleted my posts. It wasn't fun to talk about. I remember crying as I typed.
> 
> I edited my post to reflect my mistaken belief that it would be read sarcastically.


My apologies and thank you for your clarification. I am sorry you dealt with anyone that would minimize the impact of rape, I cant even wrap my mind around it.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

WTH?? My posts in this thread are deleted? Why??? So confusing around here. Why bother.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Miss Taken said:


> Naively I suppose but I‘d think one should expect more from a place like this.


It is absolutely not naive to expect civil discourse from any public discussion forum. The job of enforcing that expectation falls on the membership and moderators. It is absolutely not easy for a fBS like myself to call others who have gone through or are going through what I experienced on language, tone, intent, and delivery of a message.

That is the primary reason I think using the "2x4" should be avoided. While it is certainly easy to justify doing so when someone is being stubborn and combative, once the community at large accepts the use of the "2x4" in some scenarios, the slippery slope is established and lines get blurred. Those who enjoy expressing themselves this way begin compartmentalizing their actions and interpreting everything that is posted in a way that allows them to lash out at anyone who does not grab a pitch fork and hops on the wagon.

If you ask the people who posted that deplorable stuff in reference to me and my spouse if they were justified in posting it, they would most certainly say yes and cite their own twisted interpretation of my message as justification.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Go to the link above Uesr CP ( User Control Panel ).
> 
> Search down and you will find EditIgnore List.
> 
> You can add people there. It is your friend.


:iagree:

This thread would piss me off if I read some of their comments in this thread.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Paladin said:


> It is absolutely not naive to expect civil discourse from any public discussion forum. The job of enforcing that expectation falls on the membership and moderators. It is absolutely not easy for a fBS like myself to call others who have gone through or are going through what I experienced on language, tone, intent, and delivery of a message.
> 
> That is the primary reason I think using the "2x4" should be avoided. While it is certainly easy to justify doing so when someone is being stubborn and combative, once the community at large accepts the use of the "2x4" in some scenarios, the slippery slope is established and lines get blurred. Those who enjoy expressing themselves this way begin compartmentalizing their actions and interpreting everything that is posted in a way that allows them to lash out at anyone who does not grab a pitch fork and hops on the wagon.
> 
> If you ask the people who posted that deplorable stuff in reference to me and my spouse if they were justified in posting it, they would most certainly say yes and cite their own twisted interpretation of my message as justification.


I'll take you off my ignore list for this one comment and no doubt it'll get me banned too, which is probably your whole point of doing what you have. 

You are incredible the way you have wound up both Healer and myself here to the point where he said the things he did 

I have the posts you said earlier in this thread and of course the rest of them "civil discourse" "deplorable stuff" .....mmm right 

How on Gods good earth you are still not banned along with him is the great mystery. Your arrogance, patronizing one liners (the very things you think are so bad), demeanor, patronizing attitude and persona and efforts to belittle people are *the worst I have ever seen on here in all my time on here* (That's including posts from arrogant waywards defending their actions back in the past)

I also think Healer's right about why you behave and think as you do. This is also not the first thread you and I have had an altercation in either which I think is partially responsible for your appalling attitude to us 

I'm not going as far as Healer as I do value my place here, so I'm being more careful how I say these things but frankly he had you nailed to the wall for all your verbose and not that cleverly hidden barbed diatribal hogwash.

I know this thread exhibits the higher tensions that both waywards and betrayed feel but I'm also appalled that any one could posts 'likes' after some of the sh!t you've pulled in this I really am and my respect for them also has gone a notch lower.

This thread is ruined now anyway so it doesn't really matter but you'll sit there with an arrogant smile on your face thinking you've won "that'll teach him/them a lesson" but personally my respect for you could not be lower. If that's what you set out to achieve all well and good

It's a shame we can't take this elsewhere like you attempted to do in that other thread a while back but after starting that you disappeared.

Like a child or many arrogant people I've met, you plant a little bomb and sit back and watch it explode under people.

I reached a point of understanding myself very well during the end of my marriage and the aftermath of it and it was to never ever for one second put up with unpleasant human beings who seem hell bent on causing pain and hurt to people 

..............and you are one of them in that very exclusive little club


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> A kinder gentler TAM would certainly NOT look like what this thread has become...sad...very very sad


I'd be genuinely interested to hear why you thought this thread turned the way it has done.

Excluding where you and I are in terms of betrayed / wayward history I'd be very grateful for your 100% honest view on that question

?


----------



## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Headspin said:


> I'll take you off my ignore list for this one comment and no doubt it'll get me banned too, which is probably your whole point of doing what you have.


My whole point for "what I have done" was to bring attention to the attitudes, tone, language, and opinions that are commonly expressed in CWI and usually justified with "person x was a BS so its ok to let them verbally abuse strangers on a forum because of what was done to them." In some cases even when those comments are directed at those who are acting in accordance with the common advice given to cope with infidelity and get through R. You were one of those people in UAPs thread, it does not surprise me that you took issue with someone calling attention to it. 



Headspin said:


> I have the posts you said earlier in this thread and of course the rest of them "civil discourse" "deplorable stuff" .....mmm right
> 
> How on Gods good earth you are still not banned along with him is the great mystery. Your arrogance, patronizing one liners (the very things you think are so bad), demeanor, patronizing attitude and persona and efforts to belittle people are *the worst I have ever seen on here in all my time on here* (That's including posts from arrogant waywards defending their actions back in the past)


I have made some very sarcastic posts in the past, the majority of them were directed at people who were abusing others for their own personal pleasure, and made baseless claims supported with "it is this way because I say so." My worst, most pissy and hot headed post would look like a compliment compared to the way you and your friend conducted yourselves here.

I have nothing to hide from anyone, so feel free to air these posts and one liners you "have."




Headspin said:


> I also think Healer's right about why you behave and think as you do. This is also not the first thread you and I have had an altercation in either which I think is partially responsible for your appalling attitude to us


I was actually wondering what drove the continued attacks on me and my points of view, so I looked back at your posts and realized you were the one I called out in UAPs thread for your continued assaults on her and anyone who disagreed with your assertions. You took issue, as you did here too, with the idea that both spouses are tasked with examining the dysfunction that lead to the breakdown of a marriage, and as you did then, equated doing so with justifying an affair. 

You even had the nerve to ask:


Headspin said:


> Who's personally attacking you? It would seem to be more the opposite from the vibe I get from all this....
> Grudges against you and your wife?! What on earth are you afraid of ? - who's gonna start popping off at you or your wife ? Why?


Figured it out yet? Or are you going to pass the buck to Healer an attack by proxy?



Headspin said:


> This thread is ruined now anyway so it doesn't really matter but you'll sit there with an arrogant smile on your face thinking you've won "that'll teach him/them a lesson" but personally my respect for you could not be lower. If that's what you set out to achieve all well and good
> 
> It's a shame we can't take this elsewhere like you attempted to do in that other thread a while back but after starting that you disappeared.


Ruined because people disagree with you? Ruined because the community at large supports not using labels and blanket statements? Ruined because the disgusting stuff you and your pal levied against other human beings was deemed inappropriate? Or because you failed to thread jack and turn this into "Us vs Them" get out the pitch forks and torches attack fest you like to support?



Headspin said:


> Like a child or many arrogant people I've met, you plant a little bomb and sit back and watch it explode under people.
> 
> I reached a point of understanding myself very well during the end of my marriage and the aftermath of it and it was to never ever for one second put up with unpleasant human beings who seem hell bent on causing pain and hurt to people


What other insights did this understanding bring? The comments you made to me in UAPs thread marginalizing what I went through as "not that bad compared to x, y, z" like one form of infidelity and betrayal somehow trumps another and your pain was more valid than mine? Or your continued insistence that examining the past to identify dysfunction in order to learn and prevent it from ever taking root again, is the same as justifying an affair?

If that really is the insight you gained, how do you put up with looking in the mirror on a daily basis? You who just said that "Healer was right." Did you even read what he wrote? Or were you just too fixated on picking on me to notice?


----------



## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Any adult who doesn't know that adultery will destroy their M and family is either incredibly stupid or naive...there is simply no way a person cannot know this.

Most people who have never experienced the ramifications of infidelity in their families may be shocked at the intensity of the pain and anger generated, but there is NO WAY they can possibly claim they didn't think it would matter.

It would be equivalent to a thief being shocked that the person he/she stole from was upset to be ripped off.

No adult can be that dumb.

A few posters on here will express the opinion that the issues in the M play a part in causing the A, and the VAST majority of WSs that come on here also engage in this blameshifting and minimizing of what they have done.

I cannot disagree more. 

These issues must eventually be dealt with as a part of a successful R, but they have absolutely NOTHING to do with the choice to cheat...that is ALL on the wayward.

The fact is, being blunt and brutally honest when combating this misguided (IMO) viewpoint is often perceived as being harsh and attacking.

I will agree with posters that name calling, vicious personal put downs, and raging are extremely counter productive and do nothing to help any situation/thread here.

But swinging a 2x4 of blunt and realistic honesty about a situation or a poster's attitude/actions is not being overly harsh.


----------



## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

Zanne said:


> WTH?? My posts in this thread are deleted? Why??? So confusing around here. Why bother.


When a cleanup happens sometimes posts that quote the posts that were removed are also deleted.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Paladin said:


> My ...... I have made some very sarcastic posts in the past, .............
> I have nothing to hide from anyone, so feel free to air these posts and one liners you "have."


I'll leave them to you, that's your forte



Paladin said:


> I ....... so I looked back at your posts and realized you were the one I called out in UAPs thread *for your continued assaults on her* and anyone who disagreed with your assertions.


You did not look back hard enough because now when you do go back and re relook at my posts in that thread you will feel very very silly. Maybe even stupid. 
I was her biggest supporter. Go back and humble yourself while you read. 



Paladin said:


> Figured it out yet? Or are you going to pass the buck to Healer an attack by proxy?


What I've figured out is that you are a very unlikeable person who I want nothing to do with 



Paladin said:


> Ruined because people disagree with you .....? Ruined because the community at large supports not using labels and blanket statements? Ruined because the disgusting stuff you and your pal levied against other human beings was deemed inappropriate? Or because you failed to thread jack and turn this into "Us vs Them" get out the pitch forks and torches attack fest you like to support?


There's was nothing disgusting I said in this whole thread and the only time I got elevated is when you started your hardly concealed attacks and barbed epiphanies which you're here trying to do again 
You've been caught out. People here can now see exactly what you are all about I don't have to say anything disgusting to you for that to be illustrated 



Paladin said:


> If that really is the insight you gained, _how do you put up with looking in the mirror on a daily basis_? You who just said that "Healer was right." Did you even read what he wrote? Or were you just too fixated on picking on me to notice?


I did read what he wrote and I think he's got you and your personality right on the money and why you are the way you are. I've been more circumspect in saying what I feel about you than he did to try and keep it within the boundaries of this forums moderator idiosyncrasies but I absolutely agree 100% with him about you and your agenda 

I'd leave it there if I were you. This thread shows enough about you for people to make their own judgements 

Also when you start making accusations about my or other people's positions in other threads do make sure you know your facts or you could come out of with egg on your face, like you have on this one


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Dyokemm said:


> Any adult who doesn't know that adultery will destroy their M and family is either incredibly stupid or naive...there is simply no way a person cannot know this.
> 
> Most people who have never experienced the ramifications of infidelity in their families may be shocked at the intensity of the pain and anger generated, but there is NO WAY they can possibly claim they didn't think it would matter.
> 
> ...


Blanket statement, check, baseless assertion, check, conflating issues, check, leaving no room for discussion, check, previous association with Headspin and hopping on the band wagon, check.

Now suppose I bring up something like "ego depletion" and cite the prevailing authors on the complex topic of what compartmentalization can do to "any adult" would it matter? Or would you just insist that you are correct anyway? Maybe take a look at Affaircares post about this exact issue a page or two back. 



Dyokemm said:


> A few posters on here will express the opinion that the issues in the M play a part in causing the A, and the VAST majority of WSs that come on here also engage in this blameshifting and minimizing of what they have done.
> 
> I cannot disagree more.
> 
> These issues must eventually be dealt with as a part of a successful R, but they have absolutely NOTHING to do with the choice to cheat...that is ALL on the wayward.


Can you point to anywhere in this thread where someone actually makes the claims you are disagreeing with? Where someone says "It was ok for WS to cheat because there was dysfunction in the marriage" 



Dyokemm said:


> The fact is, being blunt and brutally honest when combating this misguided (IMO) viewpoint is often perceived as being harsh and attacking.


I really mean it, if I missed someone blaming the choice to cheat on a BS, please point it out.



Dyokemm said:


> I will agree with posters that name calling, vicious personal put downs, and raging are extremely counter productive and do nothing to help any situation/thread here.
> 
> *But *swinging a 2x4 of blunt and realistic honesty about a situation or a poster's attitude/actions is not being overly harsh.


How many times has it been said on TAM that anytime something follows the word "But" it should be ignored? Isnt it typical for people engaged in Blame shifting to structure their sentences that way? "Yes I cheated, it was wrong BUT...."


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"both spouses are tasked with examining the dysfunction that lead to the breakdown of a marriage"

Paladin,

I agree with you that this must eventually become part of a successful R of a M that has been destroyed by infidelity.

But I do not agree at all if you are saying it must be addressed as part of the A itself.

The blame for making that choice is ENTIRELY on the WS.

Now I know you and I are going to always see different on this point as I have read your posts on this issue in other threads, including the one you mentioned.

Its a free country... and you can choose to believe anything you want.

However, I do agree with some others here that you are somewhat judgmental towards people who disagree with your opinion that the BS bears part of the responsibility of the A.

Some of us will never accept that view.

I see nothing, though, that should prevent us all from acknowledging each other's right to disagree on this point without being disparaging or condescending.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> Any adult who doesn't know that adultery will destroy their M and family is either incredibly stupid or naive...there is simply no way a person cannot know this.
> 
> Most people who have never experienced the ramifications of infidelity in their families may be shocked at the intensity of the pain and anger generated, but there is NO WAY they can possibly claim they didn't think it would matter.
> 
> ...


Absolutely I could not agree more with that :iagree:


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

The biggest problem with all this I see that our own 'inhouse' TAM former waywards are up against the massive army of opinion which concerns the usual general anti wayward feeling.

I understand it must put you in a difficult position when you are tarnished with that brush.

A genuine question I have is that do those 'inhouse' know, really know and comprehend how the betrayed feel about this and why we find it so hard, nigh impossible, to ever 'let go' of our inner embedded anger and bitterness because as difficult as it may be for the wayward to admit they are completely culpable it is just as difficult even more so imo as a betrayed spouse, to ever let go of that triggering warning bell going off when we see a wayward giving it the "I'm sorry ... but" cheating script page one of the manual 

I applaud the efforts of our inhouse waywards to not only do what was necessary to actually reconcile _in the right way_ but also to stay here and attempt to help potential waywards who are set on that terrible path.

Maybe one of the problems is that 'helping' those people can often come out as 'defending' them. I could be wrong but somewhere in all this it never leaves me as a betrayed that waywards trying to help another wayward never sits right 

... but maybe that's the legacy cheating forever leaves on a betrayed spouse like myself


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Dyokemm said:


> "both spouses are tasked with examining the dysfunction that lead to the breakdown of a marriage"
> 
> Paladin,
> 
> ...


At least you made an effort to have a conversation and used the word "if" I appreciate you leaving room for talking about it.

If I ever gave off the impression that the choice to cheat was in anyway on anyone other than the person making that choice, I misspoke and did not clearly represent the issue. I remember painstakingly taking the time to draw the distinction between justifying an affair, and figuring out the pathology of the events leading up to it.

I have always tried to make it a point when discussing these issues to include the TAM mantra about "Dysfunction being 50/50 and choosing infidelity as the solution being 100% on the WS" 

I have never chanaged my mind on this, if this is how you feel too, we are in agreement.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Paladin,

You know what?

As I was posting my last bit about how we should just agree to disagree peacefully like adult with conflicting opinions, you went ahead and posted a diatribe against my earlier post that was just a perfect example of why I said I can see the point of other posters who accuse you of being condescending and judgmental...and now I'll add self-righteously pompous to the list as well.

The post you attacked was a GENERAL comment on the thread topic!!!

It was NOT A response towards YOU or any specific comments on this thread at all.

And don't think I don't notice the massive hypocrisy you are displaying in your pompous attack on my general opinion on this topic. 

I've seen you prattle on about the angry, projecting BSs on TAM treating poor WSs like they were their own partners...how they launch angry, insulting posts and attacks that are unwarranted.

Yet here you go insulting me for daring to express an opinion that differs from the one held by omniscient you.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Dyokemm said:


> Paladin,
> 
> You know what?
> 
> ...


I had hope for a split second, then you post this nonsense. It always boils down to a lose/lose when it comes to discussing issues here. 

If I said, "post examples of what you mean, would you say "they are there, I dont want to bother" if I say this issue is not black and white, it is complex and nuanced, will you say "the choice to cheat is 100% on the WS?" because it is easier to post something no one can disagree with rather than try and understand the issues from multiple points of view?

Is it really that hard to understand why I would feel defensive when you come in here, and just as you did in the other thread, right after Headspin, put words in my mouth about justifying this or that?

You think the response to you and what you said was off base? How exactly does coming in here and using absolute statements like you did in your first post contribute to the discussion about the tone and attitude on TAM? Or addresses any of the points raised by the OP?


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

Coffee Amore said:


> When a cleanup happens sometimes posts that quote the posts that were removed are also deleted.


Actually, my post was my first contribution to this thread and it was in response to the OP. It had nothing to do with the arguing going back and forth here.

I don't believe anything I wrote was offensive and I made some valid points. I was completely censored from contributing at all to this thread, except for my posts now wondering what the heck happened. Again, why bother to participate?

Also, why does my last post say that YOU edited it at 4:35AM this morning??? So odd.....


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Paladin,

It seems we a hop-scotching each other with these posts.

Though I think we may still somewhat disagree on this issue, I do take note of the fact that your hostility towards my expressed opinion dropped off significantly.

And it is OK we disagree as I posted earlier.

I am not the type of person who believes the world has to see things his way or that only his choices and thoughts are correct.

I apologize foe losing my temper a bit and calling your posts pompous and self-righteous...I truly believe there was a misunderstanding between us.

I think you took my generalized opinion as a personal attack on you and responded as if it were...and I know I took your response as a personal attack on me questioning my ability to read/think clearly.

Lets let bygones be bygones...even if we do happen to disagree there is more to be gained by both of us in civil discussion than in attacking each other.

So, my apologies for the misunderstanding.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

OK Paladin,

I'm going to ignore the combativeness in our back and forth since I am responsible for at least half of it, and instead focus on specific points of disagreement.

I say its impossible that an adult human being to not know that the A will be destructive to their M...they may be surprised at the intensity of the pain/damage, but I contend no one can be so clueless as to think it will not effect their M at all.

Now you called me out on this in your first response to me saying I was generalizing, and in your last post you say these issues are complex and nuanced.

Please explain to me how it is that an adult human being would not know this.

I would offer as evidence that we all know it is destructive, wrong, and will have dire consequences because all A's are conducted secretly and deceptively.

A person who believed it was of no consequence to the state of their M would have no reason to hide it.

So, since you called me out on this, explain how I'm creating a false generalization.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Dyokemm said:


> Paladin,
> 
> It seems we a hop-scotching each other with these posts.
> 
> ...



Thank you, and likewise, I have an issue keeping my cool when I feel like people are putting words in my mouth, especially when I too was once a BS, and would never accept any assertion that attempted to place any of the blame for my spouse's choice to cheat at my feet.

I did not mean to call your intellect or comprehension skills into question, as I do not personally know you, and do not have enough information to do so.

I am still interested to hear how you feel we differ in opinion on this issue, as I strongly support the notion that the choice to cheat is squarely on the shoulders of the person making it. I feel that it is a separate issue from examining how the dynamic in a marriage could break down to the point of infidelity becoming a viable choice for one or both of the spouses. 

I consider Affaircare to be a rational adult, and the views expressed in that post are relevant to this discussion.

That being said, since the topic of this thread is about the attitudes on TAM and what this place would look like if it was toned down, perhaps we would be better off exploring the other issue elsewhere.

edit: i will address your question shortly, and keep it here for the sake of continuity.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Dyokemm said:


> OK Paladin,
> 
> I'm going to ignore the combativeness in our back and forth since I am responsible for at least half of it, and instead focus on specific points of disagreement.
> 
> ...


Here is a brief article on this topic, I will post some highlights that speak to this issue:



> When making promises to be faithful, most people are serious and have every intention of keeping their word.
> 
> But while people generally have the best intentions when making such promises, human behavior is not always governed by the fact that vows were taken and that promises were made.
> 
> ...


source: Making the Decision to Cheat - Truth About Deception


This post from earlier in the thread is important too:




Affaircare said:


> .....See, I truly do understand that most Loyal Spouses think they could NEVER, *EVER *cheat. I thought that! If you knew me before my affair, I honestly suspect you would have thought that. My character is generally honest and open, and generally very dependable and committed. So when I was cheating it was as close to 180 different from 'who I am as a person' than I'd say about anyone on the planet. It's just NOT who I am!! And yet I DID CHEAT. And it wasn't because of something my husband "did" or "didn't do." I think it was because I am imperfect and the perfect storm came along and I was not prepared. I didn't have the tools to deal with it.
> 
> And one of the reasons I am speaking up here and now is because I do wish people who came on either right before they cheat or as they are beginning the EA were not run off. There are people here who MIGHT be able to talk sense to them! I understand that at first their reasoning would be incorrect (illogical), and what they need is not "YOU ARE AN <insert derogatory name for an entire category of people here>!" but rather someone who'll say "Hey I can hear ya but what you are thinking is not logical. You missed a step. See it? Right here...and if you get back to that logical step, it leads you to doing the right thing which is _this_."
> 
> Now of course, some Disloyals will not want to hear it and will choose to cheat anyway, and we can't fix them. Shoot we can't fix any of them! But we sure can't do anything if they don't even stick around. If they stay and at least hear "Here's where your thought process is flawed. Here's where it's leading you. Your so-called friends are not telling you the truth: here's what it will really be like. If you don't want to go there, you can do _this_. Yep it's scary but you can do it! We will be here for ya. Go do the right thing."


There is quite a bit more to this, but this is a start.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"I feel that it is a separate issue from examining how the dynamic in a marriage could break down to the point of infidelity becoming a viable choice for one or both of the spouses."

I agree it is a separate issue...and I definitely agree that for a fully successful R and rebuilding of the M these problems must be identified and corrected.

I think what I (and maybe others?) get a sense of in your posts on this (and I admit its a tone/feeling rather than something you have directly said) is establishing a direct tie or link between the issues in the M and the A.

For myself, this comes very close to blameshifting, and I would say that, yes, pre-A issues must eventually be fixed but they must be diligently kept separate from the A issue itself.

My logic and the anecdotal evidence I have witnessed in friend's/family's Ms that have dealt with this, is that trying to deal with the whole mess TOGETHER opens too many doors for blameshifting the A...and in every case where I have seen blameshifting there has always been a subsequent setback to R.

It might be that we are in agreement on this, as I said, I just sometimes get a sense from your posts that the issues do blur with the A in your advice...and I think this is what provokes a reaction from people like myself who strongly believe they must be kept separate.

And just to address quickly something else you mentioned, this is something that I would swing a 2x4 of blunt honesty about on a thread....without name calling or put downs (those don't do ANY good at all). Its just that sometimes bluntly pointing out to people that they are rugsweeping or allowing their WS to dictate the terms of their R gets taken as attacking...to me, just pointing out reality as you see it is not attacking someone.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

dyokemm said:


> .without name calling or put downs (those don't do any good at all). Its just that sometimes bluntly pointing out to people that they are rugsweeping or allowing their ws to dictate the terms of their r gets taken as attacking...to me, just pointing out reality as you see it is not attacking someone.


1000%


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Dyokemm said:


> And just to address quickly something else you mentioned, this is something that I would swing a 2x4 of blunt honesty about on a thread....without name calling or put downs (those don't do ANY good at all). Its just that sometimes bluntly pointing out to people that they are rugsweeping or allowing their WS to dictate the terms of their R gets taken as attacking...to me, just pointing out reality as you see it is not attacking someone.


I will again point to word choice, tone, and delivery as being important when discussing issues that involve the shattering of a person. Bluntly pointing out that someone is rug sweeping or allowing the WS to dictate the terms of R can be done in a multitude of ways:

"Allowing your WS to blame you for the choice they made to cheat, or letting them talk you into "just getting over it already" will signal to them that you have no issues with them stepping out on your marriage to have unprotected sex with anyone they choose at any time. You must learn to lay down, express, and defend healthy boundaries, and set consequences that you will actually be able to follow through on, when the boundaries are not respected. If you fail to follow through on the consequences, you will signal that you are ok with x, y, z."

"WTF is wrong with you? Your whre of a wife spread her legs for the first cok that came along, and you are worried about what you did or didnt do? Fine! go be a doormat pusy cuckold and enjoy the smell of cum on her breath when she comes home. So what if you smacked her around form time to time? You arent the one who went whoring, it was that **** u call a wife who did this to you, I bet she is getting some cok in her arse right now laughing about the loyal beta pvssy she has at home"

edit: I also wanted to make sure you saw my response to you about how a "rational adult" could possibly be "unaware" that their choices would be destructive, and how even the people that think cheating is not in their character can still make those toxic choices


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Paladin,

I would not dispute the fact that an A involves emotional thinking overpowering logical thinking..in fact I agree with that assertion.

I would make my view more clear like this.

All adults logically/rationally understand that cheating will indeed destroy the M and family.

Two seconds of imagining their spouse doing it and how they would react is all anyone who can rationally think needs to get this point.

Now A's happen when emotional thinking leads to prioritizing selfish desires over the responsibilities and loyalties they still LOGICALLY know they need to provide to their spouses and families.

Now to overcome the cognitive dissonance of this situation, marital rewrites and blameshifting are developed to justify the cheating...BUT the truth is they still LOGICALLY know and understand that they will destroy the M and the family because the A is conducted in secret using deception.

If they truly believed their own emotional thinking and the justifications it provided, they would just come out and openly conduct their relationship filled with the knowledge they were 'right' to do so.

For these reasons, my conclusion is that all adults know cheating will destroy their M and family...all the emotional thinking, marital rewriting, and blameshifting in the world doesn't even really work to convince even THEMSELVES otherwise.

I've read threads here where WSs will say things like "I didn't think you cared about me" or "I thought the M was dead anyways"...I think this is bs emotional thinking/blameshifting...and I DO NOT buy it for a second....they know logically what they have done is inexcusable and they knew full well before they even began that the M and their family unit was probably not going to survive.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Paladin,

I agree with you on the tone of posts...there is indeed a huge difference between blunt and rude, and it is a line we should all strive not to cross.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Dyokemm said:


> Paladin,
> 
> I would not dispute the fact that an A involves emotional thinking overpowering logical thinking..in fact I agree with that assertion.
> 
> ...


Well so you are set in your beliefs and no amount of scientific data, personal experience, or theory will sway you. That is your choice, but does not give you the right to generalize. Tears, UAP, and my spouse, for example, are all people who do not fit your model. 

I suppose they are the exception and somehow abnormal? Or could it be possible that even though some adults may "logically" know that their actions will lead to the consequences you outline, they simply have no access to that part of the brain when the choice to cheat is made, and after the fact, are too scared to bring it up?


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"I suppose they are the exception and somehow abnormal? Or could it be possible that even though some adults may "logically" know that their actions will lead to the consequences you outline, they simply have no access to that part of the brain when the choice to cheat is made, and after the fact, are too scared to bring it up?"

I see your point, but I am not denying that in the moment of choosing to cheat the emotional thinking of the brain is dominant...in fact I agree with you specifically on this point.

But, I would confidently assert that the LOGICAL knowledge that adultery would most likely destroy the M and family existed BEFORE the A began.

In a sense, you can claim it is STILL in there too...like some kind of a priori knowledge...but it is indeed overpowered by the emotional thinking during the actual acts of cheating.

Now, as the A continues, how does the brain square the cognitive dissonance created by the fact that the emotional and logical brains are essentially at polar opposites in guiding behavior?

I contend that most humans cannot (for reasons of self image/identity) KNOWINGLY choose to do evil. 

For this reason, the emotional brain begins to create justifications...what we call here marital rewrites and blameshifting...to allow themselves to continue the A while still viewing themselves as a basically good person whose acts might seem bad, but are actually justified because of A,B,C,etc.

But if they truly believe they are right, why the secrecy?

I believe it is because even though the emotional brain is dominant during the A, the logical knowledge that the A is wrong and will probably end their M and family, IS STILL THERE.

It is that nagging guilt and doubt at the back of their mind that so many WSs talk about here in the threads.

Yes its weak and being overpowered by the emotional brain, but I do not believe it simply ceases to exist.

The fact that this knowledge is still there is what drives the lying, deception, and sneaking that make up the A behavior.

I still think they do indeed still logically know what the probable result of their A to the M and family will be, even while the emotional brain is the engine driving the bus (so to speak).

And I am not impervious to science at all...in fact nearly all of my ideas on ethics/human behavior are the direct result of decades of studying philosophy, history, and a healthy dose of psychology, Add to this over 20 years of teaching and 6 years as a Navy officer, jobs where it is essential to get to know what motivates people's behaviors.

So the best facts and theories about why humans do what they do have always been a driving curiosity, even an obsession, of my life.


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