# lack of passion - the letter - and the talk



## HDsocal (Nov 19, 2010)

Had the talk (again), my situation married 23 years, with 13yr old son. For me the problem is lack of affection and passion. As I have described my W, willing but not wanting. Despite my efforts things haven't gotten better, actually slowly worse. Recently, I had the 'the talk' with her, I actually had a letter written to her that I gave her at the start of the talk. The letter had a lot in in in, including one part with a list of what I want. Think there is a chance any of these can come true? Can we really make a change?

'from the letter'

What I want in our marriage

I want you to be my girlfriend not just my roommate, I want you to flirt with me, tease me, and try to get me excited. I want you to be sexy for me but also because you like how it makes you feel knowing I want you. I want you to be proud of the reaction you can get from me.

I want to look forward to being with you, touching you feeling you. I want the welcome home kiss to be more than a formality, but something we desire.

I want collapsing in your arms exhausted to be the destination not just something that ends up happening. Making great sex a priority is so important and something that has been lacking for years in our relationship. We need to make sex and passion a priority like it really matters (because it does!).

I want making love to be a full time thing, the sex part is just one aspect of it. The love and affection during the day creates the feelings that will result in great sex.

I want to know that I am wanted, needed. Too often I feel rejected by you. Rejection like this over and over is soul crushing and is killing me. I need you to understand this!

I want to be surprised by you, and be surprised for years to come. This needs to be organic and not just some half-hearted attempt to appease me. I want you to be adventurous and willing to try, both as a leader and a follower.

I want to have sex many times a month, not because of a schedule but because we want to feel each other. Sometimes this could be a quickie, but this shouldn’t be all that we end up with. There isn’t some quota, but I have not been satisfied by the frequency or quality of our sex life.

I want you to know how much I want you, both as my friend, and my lover, I want you to be able to see it in my eyes.

I want to know how much YOU want me I want to see it in your eyes. I want to look at you and know you crave the closeness.

I want you to be excited by how much I want and need you. When you try to, you can really get me excited. Pity or Duty sex doesn’t excite me, all that it does is raise resentment and self loathing.

I want you to be sexy for me, knowing how much this turns me on should be rewarding to you as a ‘gift to me’.

I don’t want to be flatly rejected for sex and affection, that doesn’t mean that you need to be ready and wanting all the time, but if it isn’t the time, tell me that you want me and when we will have sex. Lack of follow up to this is one of the worst things you can do to me.

Know that when we talk about sex, and flirt, I look forward to it later. When it doesn’t happen or when you seem ambivalent it is a cruel rejection.

I want to get old with you, but still wanting you, I want to be the old couple that still is sexual. Without a change in our relationship neither of these things will happen.

I want us to want each other soo badly that we don’t wait; we just go home and tear each other’s clothes off, not preceded with a 45 minute ‘get ready for bed’ ritual.

Apathy or ambivalence about the sex and passion in our marriage is the worst possible response, if it continues I cant see how our marriage will.


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## LostDesperateConfused (Jan 3, 2015)

Man i am so gona STEAL this. You just wrote EXACTLY the wants and needs i need in my current marriage and I've been trying to get it through to her for years! Good post


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Does she have any "I want...."s that you can address for her too? I think it would help if you told her what you will be doing to fix things on your side, to make her want you in this way.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Did your marriage ever have any of those things you want?


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## 1971 (Mar 7, 2013)

I love what you have written and there was a time when I would have wished that my husband would have written it to me but that is no longer to case. After many years of living like roommates I just don't care for him any more.

I hope thats not the case with your wife.

.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

_“Think there is a chance any of these can come true? Can we really make a change?”_

Sorry, No. Not this way.

Here’s the problem. The things you want for her to give you …can’t actually be given. 

In fact, she already GIVES you exactly what she CAN give you…she can give you a *WILLING *PARTNER…she CAN NOT give you a *WANTING *partner.

You WANT passion and her genuine desire because it’s far more reassuring to YOUR self-esteem. 

It validates something within you. It makes you feel *ABOUT YOU* exactly how _you really want_ to feel about *YOURSELF*.

Try to answer this question honestly and purely objectively?

Why can’t you trigger attraction in your wife?

Try to imagine yourself as a woman….what ‘triggers’ passion? And why doesn't you behavior and attitude trigger it?

(and I’ll help you a little bit here---I’ve written this a billion times but it remains true----it’s POWER….your wife can’t feel passion for you until you FEEL REALLY POWERFUL to her----and you wanting her _far more than she wants you_ doesn't help you feel powerful)

Also, please understand, nothing that I wrote above feels FAIR (necessarily).

This may never feel FAIR to you. 

Sadly, it doesn’t have to. It is just the reality. So you have to figure out how to work with within the restrictions of this ‘unfair’ reality.

And the reality of this won’t ever respond to ‘talks and letters’. 

I promise you that.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

HD I am getting the impression that you are not connecting with your wife emotionally.

Could this be the case ?

Just asking.

As MMSLP says in the first page

Men want better sex...And Women want better Men

Challenge yourself.

55


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## HDsocal (Nov 19, 2010)

> Did your marriage ever have any of those things you want?


Never CONSISTENTLY to the level I really wanted, but the general trend has been getting worse over time.



> In fact, she already GIVES you exactly what she CAN give you…she can give you a WILLING PARTNER…she CAN NOT give you a WANTING partner.


You may be right, but there is something she can give.. an effort, if I thought she was sincerely trying to change things, even if she (we) were not successful, that sure would lower the resentment level



> This may never feel FAIR to you.


I never have been to concerned about fair...



> HD I am getting the impression that you are not connecting with your wife emotionally.
> 
> Could this be the case ?


In some ways you are right, the cycle of resentment - followed by withdrawal feeds itself. After 'the talk' I have been very care full not to let the cycle begin (again).


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

HD, this is a pretty impressive list of wants. What will she get in return?


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

That's a long list of what you want her to do for you, to make you feel better about yourself. How do you contribute to how she feels about herself? What does she want?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

> Did your marriage ever have any of those things you want?





HDsocal said:


> Never CONSISTENTLY to the level I really wanted, but the general trend has been getting worse over time.


Then it's not particularly likely that you'll ever have it all at the level you want, consistently, if it never was there to begin with. Your expectations for your sex life have gotten higher over the last 23 years. That's probably not the only thing that has changed about you and your relationship with your wife in 23 years. 



> You may be right, but there is something she can give.. an effort, if I thought she was sincerely trying to change things, even if she (we) were not successful, that sure would lower the resentment level


So you have a lot of resentment toward her. And in order to lower the resentment, you want her to lust after you, flirt with you, be sexy for you, screw you into exhaustion AND you want her to be surprising and adventurous, a leader and a follower, both.

Oh, and you especially don't want pity or duty sex because that increases your resentment and _self-loathing_. 

You want her to lust after you; you want to believe that lust that drives her to do and be this person that she hasn't been with you in a long time, if ever.

But if she doesn't actually FEEL these things, if she doesn't feel this level of lust, then what is "try" and "effort"? Is that not duty sex? 

Have you ever tried to feel lust for someone when you didn't feel lust for them? How did you go about it? What steps did you take to change yourself in order to truly feel passion for someone when it didn't come naturally?

And have you ever tried to feel lust for someone who is resentful of you? What steps did you take to genuinely develop lust and be sexy for someone who is resentful of you?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

HD- I'm sure it took a lot for you to expose yourself to your wife in this way. 

I can identify with a lot of what you wrote.

So I take no pleasure in agreeing with the others above that this approach won't help.

I am sure if your wife came to you with a list of her needs, you would do you best to try to meet them. 

I am going to get flamed for saying this, but women aren't like that. They just don't respect men who are needy.

The irony is that the only way that she will come around is if you get to the point that you truly don't care any more.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

There were several paragraphs each referring to you wanting sex. I did not see anything related to what she gets out of sex.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> The irony is that the only way that she will come around is if you get to the point that you truly don't care any more.


Anon, I don't think this is is true. 

I came around after ten years of my husband wanting more intimacy, wanting more genuine passion, wanting more of being wanted the way he wanted me. 

It wasn't because he stopped caring (although admittedly I think I did sometimes feel emotionally smothered by the weight of his longing.) It was because I came to realize how truly painful not having those things were for him. And when I realized it it was a need, and not a want, I very suddenly found the desire to provide for him.

It's a small distinction to some--a man's need vs. a man's want--but it changes things. It made me realize that I had power and agency in a relationship in which I'd felt helpless for years. 

OP, I like your letter. Don't stop trying to communicate with your wife about this.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> Anon, I don't this is is true.
> 
> I came around after ten years of my husband wanting more intimacy, wanting more genuine passion, wanting more of being wanted the way he wanted me.
> 
> ...


I think it is very impressive how you've turned your relationship around. You and your husband must have had an extraordinary bond to withstand 10 years of distance.

I think you must admit that your situation is exceptional though.

Unfortunately, I don't think in most of these situations there is a lack of understanding that a need is not being met.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> I think it is very impressive how you've turned your relationship around. You and your husband must have had an extraordinary bond to withstand 10 years of distance.
> 
> I think you must admit that your situation is exceptional though.
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't think in most of these situations there is a lack of understanding that a need is not being met.


I think my situation is exceptional, but I don't think it's as unobtainable as you (and many other) do. 

In hindsight, a lot is clear to me. But trying to convince hurting people to take a huge emotional risk is really hard. Trying to convince people who are really far gone into hopelessness and bitterness is hard. And I can't say I blame them. 

And really, no two situations are alike, and I can not assume that, like you say, perhaps my husband and I are not just lucky beyond all reason. 

But what I learned about men on this site was key. I'm not an uneducated person, or someone who is socially isolated by any means. But I met him young, and was with him all my adult life. I think I knew very little about marriage, and I was independent and selfish and took care of myself, and expected that he would do the same. I didn't let him love me the way he needed to love me.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I wish you had not sent the letter. It's a good list for you to plan an approach. But does not seem to present her or yourself with an action plan. 

From what I have read and experienced, talking, requesting, appealing, household chores and asking rarely work. What may work is changes that you make in yourself. You can invite your wife to a happier and more passionate marriage but in the end, she must have self motivation to change. Why should she change now? She has the relationship that is satisfying enough for her and she probably thinks you should be happy too. 

This may seem selfish but it's really a combination of ignorance about what and why you are unhappy and about men in general. The letter does not teach her anything so I doubt if it will result in a sustained change on her part. 

All is not lost though. Shift your efforts to help her climb out of the status quo, if she chooses. Make a list of self and relationship improvement that you want to institute in the new year. Do what ever you need to do to improve physically, emotionally and mentally. When you change, you may cease to blend into the background of her mind. 

At the same time, read some creditable relationship and human sexuality books. Work on improving your emotional connection. I am not making this your fault, you want to cover all basis so that you are the best partner you can be for her or another, should it come to that. 

Ultimately, your wife needs to want to be in the type of passionate marriage that you envision, allowing for what she wants too. She needs to want to be with the improved you. No guarantees. You are guaranteed to feel better about yourself and be an attractive man. Then you can decide what you want to do.

*** I was posting before I saw GI post above. I've repeated some things but I could not agree with her more.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

If she's not "feeling it", a letter is not going to suddenly make her want to jump your bones.

You have to change YOU... Figure out how to make yourself more attractive to her. Work out, lift weights, change your physique, get a new haircut, buy new fashion-forward clothes, eat healthier, start going out with guy friends, be more take-charge and Alpha. Don't beg, whine or plead (and don't give her anymore letters!) When she sees your new confidence, a new "mystery" about you, your strength and decisiveness, and other ladies noticing you, she just may come around. 

You can't force someone to have feelings for you if they don't feel it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Does she have any "I want...."s that you can address for her too? I think it would help if you told her what you will be doing to fix things on your side, to make her want you in this way.


Also, consider that you do provide something she finds attractive and valuable. She has known for a while you are not happy with the sex and it does not appear she is wanting / able to change. If she did not value the relationship, she would be out by now.

So, what is it that she values? Does she understand that is at risk? By that I mean that does she understand your marriage is in serious danger, or does she think you are just blowing smoke and won't leave?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

happy as a clam said:


> If she's not "feeling it", a letter is not going to suddenly make her want to jump your bones.
> 
> You have to change YOU... Figure out how to make yourself more attractive to her. Work out, lift weights, change your physique, get a new haircut, buy new fashion-forward clothes, eat healthier, start going out with guy friends, be more take-charge and Alpha. Don't beg, whine or plead (and don't give her anymore letters!) When she sees your new confidence, a new "mystery" about you, your strength and decisiveness, and other ladies noticing you, she just may come around.
> 
> ...


He cannot force his partner to lust after him. Also, doing all of the above might not cause her to find him any more attractive than she does now. The problem might be her (self-esteem issues, mommy mode, hormonal issues, etc.) and not him. It seems like they are at least early 40s if together for 23 years.

However, he can expect her to behave in a relationship-friendly manner. She is capable, despite her LD for him (or in general) of saying "you take good care of us and depend on me for this, so I will cheerfully provide that which you ask".


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

DTO said:


> He cannot force his partner to lust after him. Also, doing all of the above might not cause her to find him any more attractive than she does now. The problem might be her (self-esteem issues, mommy mode, hormonal issues, etc.) and not him. It seems like they are at least early 40s if together for 23 years.
> 
> However, he can expect her to behave in a relationship-friendly manner. *She is capable, despite her LD for him (or in general) of saying "you take good care of us and depend on me for this, so I will cheerfully provide that which you ask"*.


She is already providing the sex, it is the passion that he wants. Genuine passion is very difficult to fake, and she seems to be providing what she can so he will feel satisfied. But he isn't satisfied with her just providing.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

techmom said:


> She is already providing the sex, it is the passion that he wants. Genuine passion is very difficult to fake, and she seems to be providing what she can so he will feel satisfied. But he isn't satisfied with her just providing.


I could be wrong, but his original post makes it sound like she is largely going through the motions. He talks of feeling rejected, lack of initiation on her part, and scheduling sex. That sounds like someone who just tolerates sex.

The key here is that even if she is not passionate about the sex, she can be passionate about meeting his need and honoring her commitment to him. She can be happy to be with him even if not horny themselves.

It is largely a character issue IMO, as long as he is treating her decently. If you can change your baby's diaper cheerfully without sighing, a bad attitude, and trying to put it off as long as possible, you can do the same for your husband or wife.


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## HDsocal (Nov 19, 2010)

> HD, this is a pretty impressive list of wants. What will she get in return?


I had to think about this one for a while, at first look the answer is obvious, 'a happy marriage', having said that it really isn't that simple is it, I need to think about this one some more.



> But does not seem to present her or yourself with an action plan.


This is only part of the letter, there were specific action plans laid out. 




> I didn't let him love me the way he needed to love me.


wow.. if there was one sentence that summed things up for me it would be this one.



> Ultimately, your wife needs to want to be in the type of passionate marriage that you envision, allowing for what she wants too. She needs to want to be with the improved you.


I tried that, started working out, lost 35 lbs, started dressing better. Did this for almost a year. Did the whole MMSL thing. Funny thing I found out, working out a lot really boosts your energy and testosterone, turns out that isn't a good thing if you have intimacy issues. Me more wanting than ever... I think MMSL works if you set a date for getting what you want or leaving.




> At the same time, read some creditable relationship and human sexuality books. Work on improving your emotional connection. I am not making this your fault, you want to cover all basis so that you are the best partner you can be for her or another, should it come to that.


I have read LOTS of them, Passionate Marriage, Sex Staved Marriage, Hot Manogamy, even Dr Laura. Not just read them but try the things they say in them to help the situation. Asked wife to read some of them with me, she didn't. Finally did but the best I can tell didn't act on any of the things the books suggested. 



> She is already providing the sex, it is the passion that he wants. Genuine passion is very difficult to fake, and she seems to be providing what she can so he will feel satisfied. But he isn't satisfied with her just providing.


Yup



> The key here is that even if she is not passionate about the sex, she can be passionate about meeting his need and honoring her commitment to him. She can be happy to be with him even if not horny themselves.


This goes back to trying, a sincere effort to try would go a LONG way.


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## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

Would you be satisfied with her faking the passion if she doesn't feel it? Do you think she would be happy faking it?

That may be what you're pushing her towards. If she can't continue as is, and she doesn't feel it, that leaves faking it.

Ask her to write you a letter describing what would help her actually FEEL passionate, and be willing to work on her letter if she works on yours. But you said she's never truly been passionate, which concerns me. You may be asking her for something she doesn't have, and if she continually feels like a failure, she will stop trying at all. 

You have a right to ask for, and works towards, a better sex life. But you don't have the power to tell her how to actually feel about sex.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

HDsocal said:


> I had to think about this one for a while, at first look the answer is obvious, 'a happy marriage', having said that it really isn't that simple is it, I need to think about this one some more.
> 
> I have read LOTS of them, Passionate Marriage, Sex Staved Marriage, Hot Manogamy, even Dr Laura. Not just read them but try the things they say in them to help the situation. Asked wife to read some of them with me, she didn't. Finally did but the best I can tell didn't act on any of the things the books suggested.


This may help. 
When we had our first child, my husband withdrew emotionally but he wanted to continue having as much sex or even more sex than we had before our child was born. It was difficult to get him to share the increased load of work even though we were employed in equally demanding fields. I became very resentful and angry with him. 

What could be more important than the baby. We had to grow up and set new priorities. Sex is fun but under the circumstances, not more important than sleep, taking care of the baby, sleep, a hot shower and sleep. I couldn't figure out why my husband didn't feel the same way. Where did he get the energy to even want to have sex while I was just existing from moment to moment. 

I only found out that sex was his way of telling me how much he loved me. I read it in books, numerous times on this forum and had many conversations with my husband. I got it, finally. I would not have known if my only source of info was a talk with my husband. He could not explain why sex was so vital to him and neither could I. I could not explain why exhaustion effected my libido so severely. 

Neither of us were wrong. We didn't understand each other. Perhaps reading more about relationships will widen the scope of your understanding. The books you read seem to have a narrow focus. Have you read His Needs, Her Needs and The Five Love Languages? I read and searched for ways of understanding my husbands point of view. Your wife may need to do the same. But you also have to understand her. I am almost certain that she does not understand what you want and why.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Well, school resumes tomorrow for me…and I’m currently procrastinating a dreadfully long car-ride…so (lucky you) …this is probably my last post until summer. 


Your quote with a few modifications by me:



HDsocal said:


> ... I think (INSERT WHATEVER) ONLY works if you set a date for getting what you want or leaving.


This is so true.

*This is everything,* and it’s bizarre to me how so many husbands (like you), clearly get this…but somehow fail to really, really “GET” it. And therefore treat it dismissively. 

*You MUST be willing to leave. 
*
This is the sine qua non of solving most sexless marriage dilemmas.

Why???

Well...it’s NOT because sexlessness is so intolerable that any guy who endures such a marriage is a total chump.

A sexless marriage could be absolutely perfect and wonderful, it could be the ‘best thing ever’…

a sexless marriage….is only as awesome or as awful as the person living in it feels that it is.

And if it doesn’t pose a problem; it’s not a problem.

But if it does pose a problem…the first question to ask is again 

*WHY?*

*Why is it a problem?*


_‘Because it makes me feel unattractive, unloved, miserable, resentful, bitter and like I’m slowly dying’_---would be a typical response.


And my reply, would be: “_wow, those are incredibly awful ways to feel. Especially because life is so tragically short and we will all be gone before we know it. 

But hey, maybe you totally suck as person, husband and father. Maybe you deserve to be treated this way. 

I don’t know. 

I don’t know you…so whatever you tell me, I guess I gotta take your word for it. _
_
So…Do you think you do a HORRIBLE job in the aforementioned categories? 

Do you think you deserve to feel this way?_


And then, (what I’d really like to say is): SAY NOTHING. 

Don’t say ‘Yes’ or ‘No’!!

Those words are COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS. 

You don’t EVER answer this question by saying any blasted thing. 

You never will.

It’s all about what you do
.
If you choose to stay in an unhappy marriage year after year---the answer is *YES, I deserve to feel the way I do.*


If you’re genuinely willing to leave and do leave if forced to---the answer is *NO, I deserve much better than this.* 

I know you will feel indignant at what's written above. I know you will wish to protest it. I wish you wouldn't. You merely waste your OWN PRECIOUS TIME.

I’m sorry. You can try to qualify this as much as you want to.
But this really is what it all boils down to…

And if you really ask yourself why you’re not willing to leave…AND if you’re really HONEST with yourself---the truth is, that most people are ultimately scared that there’s nothing better waiting for them. And that they’ll wind up regretting the decision to leave. 


And if you believe there’s nothing better waiting for you….it’s because you don’t really think you deserve better….once you actually believe you deserve better…(and honestly, what’s actually IS waiting for you is *completely beside the point*).

(oh and also, because we are so terrified about what answer to that one great question is: *Yes…there is ALWAYS something BETTER waiting for YOU "out there in the WIDE UNKNOWN”.* 

(and one of the greater tragedies of our lives is that we have a very hard time believing this. )


***the only ‘trick’ to this…is bringing the right YOU to the ‘out there in the WIDE UNKNOWN’----and some bravery...you gotta bring bravery to every part of LIFE or you don't really live...if I ever figure out a loophole to this I promise I'll let you know***


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I always feel a little uneasy when the rationale for putting lukewarm effort into a relationship is that there is always better out in the unknown. I don't think that is universally true. There is different for sure but better? Maybe not. It depends on how terrible your present relationship is and on how better you are for new one. 

There is some merit to being in a relationship with two feet in and looking inwards not outwards. It may end tomorrow but the quality and depth you develop as a person has no measure. The rewards for riding out reasonable issues is great. Going from one person to the next has rewards too. It's the difference between a farmer who loves the land and works it and a hunter gatherer who loves many lands and picks on the move. 

Being willing to leave a relationship is vital. It is the best antidote for abuse and being taken for granted. But when do you consider leaving. The break point has to be sufficiently robust to withstand the normal ups and downs of a relationship. His wife is not having passionate sex at this time. Should he leave her and look for passionate sex? I have no doubt he will find passionate sex within a week or two. However, is his wife and family worth so little? 

OP, I think you are doing the right things to try to get things back on track. This may be a bad period in an otherwise good marriage. If there is an upswing, you want to be there to ride it out. I think you and your family are worth a high quality effort.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

that.girl said:


> That may be what you're pushing her towards. If she can't continue as is, and she doesn't feel it, that leaves faking it.


No it does not. It leaves her the option of choosing to serve him cheerfully despite her own diminished / low sex drive. She can choose to be generous always. Yes, there is sacrifice, but that is a part of marriage. He is not asking for the impossible nor anything that would cause her to give up other stuff in her life.

A few years ago there was a poster (a Christian lady) who had resolved to approach sex with a servant heart. What this means is she knew her husband's sexual fulfillment made a real impact on his quality of life. Knowing she was his only sexual outlet (as with almost every marriage) she made the choice to _embrace_ his sexuality and _cheerfully_ fulfill his requests.

That her attitude and actions likely would lead to a virtuous cycle of enhanced service from them both was not her primary driver. However, this is certainly a nice secondary effect.

The truth is that anyone can choose to do this - choose to say "he or she needs me for this and it makes a real difference in his or her life" and follow through. So, whether it gets done is largely a matter of character.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> I always feel a little uneasy when the rationale for putting lukewarm effort into a relationship is that there is always better out in the unknown. I don't think that is universally true. There is different for sure but better? Maybe not. It depends on how terrible your present relationship is and on how better you are for new one.
> 
> There is some merit to being in a relationship with two feet in and looking inwards not outwards. It may end tomorrow but the quality and depth you develop as a person has no measure. The rewards for riding out reasonable issues is great. Going from one person to the next has rewards too. It's the difference between a farmer who loves the land and works it and a hunter gatherer who loves many lands and picks on the move.
> 
> ...


Fair enough.

I totally stand by it. I'm certain that's true.



But I don't say that or MEAN that nearly has lightly as it may "feel".

My disclaimer is here:


_***the only ‘trick’ to this…is bringing the right YOU to the ‘out there in the WIDE UNKNOWN’----and some bravery...you gotta bring bravery to every part of LIFE of you don't really live...if I ever figure out a loophole to this I promise I'll let you know***_

Suffice it to say that :

This "trick" is indeed a LOADED one...(loaded with totally good and worthwhile stuff)....

I'm unable to expound upon at present (and really, I don't know if my elaborations every really help anyway ... Neuklaus is the only poster who I think ever totally 'got it'...and that was really just because it already 'had it')


{(also _"putting lukewarm effort into a relationship"_---is not something I ever advocate....again, I have to take on trust that when someone asserts that they put *solid effort* into their relationship that this is indeed true. Conveniently, a _person's perception_ of their effort is 9/10ths of reality anyway)}

Mutual Earnest Effort is CRITICAL to a SUCCESSFUL, healthy Relationship. 

There's no exception to this rule.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

HDsocal said:


> This goes back to trying, a sincere effort to try would go a LONG way.


I still do not understand what "trying" and "a sincere effort" look like when someone does not actually FEEL passion. Do you? Can you explain it to me?

If you don't feel passion and lust, any "trying" is faking it and is not sincere desire. That's what you have now - willing but not wanting. She's tried years of faking it for you, and you hate it because it's duty sex and makes you feel bad.

So what, specifically, does trying and making a sincere effort look like?


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## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

You're right, she could choose to "cheerfully serve" him. At the moment, she is serving him, but we're not sure how cheerful she is.
But that would not be the same thing as actually feeling and showing passion. So OP would need to decide if cheerfully serving is enough for him. 

And he would most likely need to offer something in return. They mostly likely got to this place because she wants or needs something she's not getting.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

DTO said:


> No it does not. It leaves her the option of choosing to serve him cheerfully despite her own diminished / low sex drive. She can choose to be generous always. Yes, there is sacrifice, but that is a part of marriage. He is not asking for the impossible nor anything that would cause her to give up other stuff in her life.
> 
> A few years ago there was a poster (a Christian lady) who had resolved to approach sex with a servant heart. What this means is she knew her husband's sexual fulfillment made a real impact on his quality of life. Knowing she was his only sexual outlet (as with almost every marriage) she made the choice to _embrace_ his sexuality and _cheerfully_ fulfill his requests.
> 
> ...


There are probably more men and women with less desire for sex who expect their higher desire partner to sacrificially yield to them. In that context, a person who down-regulates their sexual desire has character too. 

I'd have an impossible time having sacrificial servile sex. What does one do when having service sex? I'd rather live a solitary life with two teacup poodles if that's what's on offer on the marital sex menu.

Some people are too emotional and transparent to mount a good acting job. When I have sex to show love to my husband, it is sensual and soft. He knows that I cannot offer porn sex  at those times. It's got to be real for me, can't fake it. If I felt compelled to fake passion and lust, sex would lose it's luster. The fun and pleasure is that it's never exactly the same and I can roll with it naturally based on how I feel when I'm on. If I think at all about my husbands satisfaction with my performance, all of the passion would leave me.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

OP, two men on TAM that have developed mutually satisfying relationships with their wives, on both the sexual and emotional level, are farsidejunky and DayOne. In each case, the marriage was nearly dying before these men stopped focusing on what their wives were doing wrong, shifted towards looking at themselves and what they could do differently, and got to work.

Far's thread is in the Considering Divorce section, and is called Sh!t test. DayOne's in in the Reconciliation section, under his name. 

Transparency and vulnerability, compassion and empathy, eventually from both partners, but initially from the husbands, played leading roles in the recovery process.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Passion is something you either have or you don't. Most people confuse liking to do something with passion. That's not it.

When I hire someone I want to make sure they have a passion for what they do, not just do a good job and show up every day.

Can you develop passion? I don't know. Passion is when you do the things you need to do naturally, without being told to, and when you do all the right moves not because your spouse will be happy and will not walk away but because it's who you are.

Some spouses may seem to behave passionately but is it because something clicked in their heads that they're about to lose the meal ticket or because it's because of some innate feeling.

To understand passion, watch a talented artist or designer or athlete or musician or photographer do their thing. They do it well because.... They do it well. They get it. They're in the zone. They were born to do it.

Passion in relationships is good but passion also is counterproductive when our idealized partner does not behave as expected...


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## DayOne (Sep 19, 2014)

HD, your letter seems to deal with one, and only one, part of your marriage. You getting laid, passionately. 

I think perhaps you need to step back and take a look at the larger picture. 

"Passion"; the sweaty, sticky, fun kind that you're missing so badly, isn't necessarily the passion she needs to feel before you get the kind you're so desperate to get. 

There's something missing, for her. You need to work on what that is. You've got to open a dialogue with her. Either by yourselves, or with help (counselling). Get to the root of what's going on, rather than simply wanting her to get to your... er... root. 

As far as the letter itself. 
1) It's REALLY freaking needy, on your part. Dial it back. If you work on the other stuff, the rest (should) happen naturally.
2) It's actually kind of attacking, and insulting, to her. At least that's how she'll read it. She going to feel even worse than she does. She doesn't need to be told. She KNOWS there's no passion, believe me. Unless there are underlying medical or psychological issues with her, she is missing it too. But as I said, there's more going on than you're seeing. Work on that.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Nora,

The sad thing is - that the letter has a global theme and then some specific requests.

The global theme is: I want you to WANT me A LOT MORE than you do. 

Good luck with that. 

One of the specifics is a request that she stop flirting with and then rejecting him. 

That's completly fair and likely can be achieved. 

What the letter lacks is a request for collaboration on this. 

He doesn't say: I know there are things I should be doing differently to help you feel more passion. And need you to help me better understand what they are. 







norajane said:


> I still do not understand what "trying" and "a sincere effort" look like when someone does not actually FEEL passion. Do you? Can you explain it to me?
> 
> If you don't feel passion and lust, any "trying" is faking it and is not sincere desire. That's what you have now - willing but not wanting. She's tried years of faking it for you, and you hate it because it's duty sex and makes you feel bad.
> 
> So what, specifically, does trying and making a sincere effort look like?


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## DayOne (Sep 19, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> What the letter lacks is a request for collaboration on this.
> 
> He doesn't say: I know there are things I should be doing differently to help you feel more passion. And need you to help me better understand what they are.


:iagree:


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Bailing out is by far the most logical response to this situation if the issue is as simple as one person not liking the other very much.

Many people in this situation have other entanglements that make this calculation more difficult.

If you are co-parenting with reasonable success, for example, do you still blow up the situation automatically? It is not your children's fault that your wife just isn't that into you anymore. Reasonable people will come to different conclusions in cases like these.

OP wants to stick it out for whatever reason. The grass is probably greener on the other side, but that doesn't help him reach his goal, however improbable it is.

OP, it sounds like you have been doing some things right- working on your appearance, for example. 

I think the crucial question is whether the things you are doing are just to get p-ssy. Based on the tone of your letter, I would guess that you are still chasing it.

What if you just said, F- it, it's not worth it?

All of the effort you put toward chasing it, redirect that toward bettering yourself. Double down on yourself, let your wife just see you getting better and better and leave her wondering why you don't chase her anymore.

That is the only way I can see her coming to you, which is really what you want.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Day,

Agree with that AND would add that in many of these situations where the sex life is 'barely crawling', you send someone a letter like this which describes a HUGE improvement - it demoralizes your spouse. Because they know they will never get to the place you describe wanting. 

It's a bit like asking your sedentary spouse to join you for a 50 mile bike ride. 







DayOne said:


> HD, your letter seems to deal with one, and only one, part of your marriage. You getting laid, passionately.
> 
> I think perhaps you need to step back and take a look at the larger picture.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Catherine, 
M2 is exactly like this.

I like those type encounters too. Men like variety too - we like a mix of soft and gentle as well as more edgy stuff. 

The most important thing to a solid guy is that the experience is real. 




Catherine602 said:


> There are probably more men and women with less desire for sex who expect their higher desire partner to sacrificially yield to them. In that context, a person who down-regulates their sexual desire has character too.
> 
> I'd have an impossible time having sacrificial servile sex. What does one do when having service sex? I'd rather live a solitary life with two tea cup poodles if that's what's on offer on the marital sex menu.
> 
> Some people are too emotional and transparent to mount a good acting job. When I have sex to show love to my husband, it is sensual and soft. He knows that I cannot offer porn sex  at those times. It's got to be real for me, can't fake it. If I felt compelled to fake passion and lust, sex would lose it's luster. The fun and pleasure is that it's never exactly the same and I can roll with it naturally based on how I feel when I'm on. If I think at all about my husbands satisfaction with my performance, all of the passion would leave me.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

HD, you have gotten some amazing advice in this thread, and I don't know that I can lend much beyond it with the limited background of your thread.

I would say this. My wife despised me this time last year. She feared going to bed at the same time as me because she viewed me a loathsome (not her words, but her description of me from back then is pretty damn close) and was afraid I would initiate sex, which she had no interest in with me. 

And you know what? She was right. She knew it, and I knew it too. I was just not ready to make the change until the second week of January or so, because my level of discomfort had not reached the critical point yet. 

But then it did. And while I could not stand how she treated me, who I had become was much worse, and to a certain degree I deserved the treatment I was receiving from her.

What are the things that bring you shame as you lay in bed at night, or as you look in the mirror? For me, it was alcohol, porn, white lies and passive/aggressive nice guy crap. I suspect you know most of what you should fix within yourself. If you don't, the reading of three key books would certainly point you in the right direction.

Hold On To Your N.U.T.'s
No More Mister Nice Guy
Married Man Sex Life Primer

So I cleaned up my side of the street. And that HURTS. You reach a certain equilibrium, which is where you are now, whereby you exist somewhat peacefully but not really connected. When you begin to improve yourself, it is destabilizing, and will lead to more pain in the short term. It hurts for you. You are learning new habits, trying to eliminate old ones. For her it is also painful. At first she will not believe your change will be permanent. Then she will ask you, "Why now?" instead of X years ago, when she complained to you about it (which you may not remember ever being brought up). But it has to start somewhere.

So my long winded post is for you to fix yourself. Figure out what type of man you want to be, and make yourself that man. Please note I said to make yourself the man you want to be, not the man she wants. If you do that, you are improving yourself for her. That will NEVER work. Any changes need to be made for yourself, but chances are it will be closer to the person she fell in love with when she met you. 

At the same time, you must find out what needs she has that you are not meeting. And understand she may not fully understand her own needs. My wife was convinced in June-July that I was meeting her needs. We were still rocky at that time, and it turns out she was not quite right. She needed me to be able to handle her emotions, which I was still struggling with at that time. This required active listening. I was trying to do it, but was allowing her emotional snottiness to derail that. It was a sh!t test within a sh!t test. Translation? The meaning behind that incident was her asking me if I was strong enough to handle her. Once I figured out her question, and how to handle it, our relationship has soared. She is not easy, but she is _so worth it. _

This was my situation. And my wife now adores me. She has trouble keeping her hands off of me. She initiates as frequently as I do. She is enthusiastic. She sends me flirty texts. Just this morning, she eyed me up and down and told me how hot I looked before church.

This is the desire you are seeking, and the same thing I myself could not live without. You want to see that from your wife? Make yourself into a man that elicits that desire.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Day,
> 
> Agree with that AND would add that in many of these situations where the sex life is 'barely crawling', you send someone a letter like this which describes a HUGE improvement - it demoralizes your spouse. Because they know they will never get to the place you describe wanting.
> 
> It's a bit like asking your sedentary spouse to join you for a 50 mile bike ride.


This is so true, Mem. I understand that when I led with putting my wife on notice that it was improvement or divorce, it effectively did the same thing, and set us back tremendously. This was a mistake, and one that I remember you chastising me for pretty heavily (deserved). 

HD, you have to be worth it to her to want to do these things for you.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> It's a bit like asking your sedentary spouse to join you for a 50 mile bike ride.


I was the sedentary spouse 55 year old last May when I started cycling. I did 30 mile trips cycling in October on a couple occasions and hope to break 50 miles next May or June. Hope to ride my age (56!) next summer.

When there's a will there's a way.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> I was the sedentary spouse 55 year old last May when I started cycling. I did 30 mile trips cycling in October on a couple occasions and hope to break 50 miles next May or June. Hope to ride my age (56!) next summer.
> 
> When there's a will there's a way.


But you wanted it for yourself. Your wife did not come to you demanding it with the implied threat of divorce for non-compliance.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> But you wanted it for yourself. Your wife did not come to you demanding it with the implied threat of divorce for non-compliance.



True. But it's possible to do it regardless of reason. A lot of LD's simply throw their hands in the air and proclaim they CAN'T.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

HDSocal,

Does your wife work outside of the home?


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## HDsocal (Nov 19, 2010)

yes she does


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I mean, in her early LD days she proclaimed her body was not able to have sexual more than once in ..... Whatever interval.

This was an early 50's woman in top physical shape, 125 lb., able to walk 8-10 miles in 90F or 20F, spread 18 cubic yards of mulch in a weekend with no help, and so on. And yet she told me with a straight face "I can't. I just can't. My body cannot handle it". Now, we are talking about sex here, not running a freaking triathlon.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HD,

Go read Farsides thread. 

He came further, faster than ANYONE on the board. 

Determined, disciplined, brutally honest with himself. 

And his wife - like all great wives - is VERY STRONG WILLED. And he got them in alignment. 

And as that happened they fell back in love. 

That said, Far is a very smart guy. And he Immediately grasped a critical concept and then applied it without reservation:
- It's toxic to use the threat of divorce to extort changes from your spouse 
AND
- Just as toxic to avoid doing what is needed to improve the marriage out of fear your spouse will divorce YOU

Far dealt with some scary issues with a lot of grace and courage. 






farsidejunky said:


> This is so true, Mem. I understand that when I led with putting my wife on notice that it was improvement or divorce, it effectively did the same thing, and set us back tremendously. This was a mistake, and one that I remember you chastising me for pretty heavily (deserved).
> 
> HD, you have to be worth it to her to want to do these things for you.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Far has done a great job, MEM. His wife adores him now. He earned that.

But I think DayOne might be giving him a run for his money on the speed part. 

Have you read DayOne's thread, MEM?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I just started DayOnes thread today. 

I'm about (3 weeks) into his separation. This is what I'm seeing:
- Discipline - he is DOING the 180 even though his wife is deliberately finding ways to see him - like coming to the house at 10 PM with no warning. 

- Commitment - he's working out

- Honest self assessment - he realizes how much he was enabling his wife to be much less than she was capable of. Bad for both of them. 

But the BEST PART by far is that he isn't angry. And the reason he isn't angry is because he isn't afraid - of the future - of whether they will recon. 

So now I'll go read the rest. It's like time lapse photography doing a few months in a few hours.....






jld said:


> Far has done a great job, MEM. His wife adores him now. He earned that.
> 
> But I think DayOne might be giving him a run for his money on the speed part.
> 
> Have you read DayOne's thread, MEM?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

What impressed me most about far and D1 is that they were completely willing to set aside their pride and just be open and honest and humble and vulnerable. That shows confidence, the belief that a man can take his situation into his own hands and exert powerful positive influence on it.

They could have blamed their wives, said that all the marital issues were the wives' fault. They could have passively insisted on waiting for their wives to change, that they were powerless by themselves to make things better. But they didn't. 

They looked hard at themselves. They took their own inventory. They took responsibility. They led by example.

How could their wives _not_ be inspired by them?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

farsidejunky said:


> HD, you have to be worth it to her to want to do these things for you.


Yes. And (should've mentioned this earlier) she must be healthy - emotionally, mentally, and physically - to respond even if you are doing the right things.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

DTO said:


> Yes. And (should've mentioned this earlier) she must be healthy - emotionally, mentally, and physically - to respond even if you are doing the right things.



If she's healthy the problem is a 2 point conversion in football. If she isn't, it's like a 65 ft field goal.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

D1 repeatedly turned down opportunities to have passionate sex with his wife because he felt that it might disrupt the pace of their recon. 

1. I agree with him
2. His restraint is making D2 feel even more intense desire for him
3. He clearly gets that desire amd sex are the result of the process - not a separate aspect of it






jld said:


> Far has done a great job, MEM. His wife
> 
> adores him now. He earned that.
> 
> ...


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

You're probably a great guy, good husband and figure you don't deserve this. You probably don't. 

But it's like you're now the loser at your high school. Everyone knows you as that. Maybe you were cool for a while in elementary school, but that was a long time ago.

You could go off to college and craft a new identity. In many ways this would be easier. But if you want to turn things around in your current environment, you have to really be twice as badass as all of the kids who are already cool. 

It is really an uphill battle.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> You're probably a great guy, good husband and figure you don't deserve this. You probably don't.
> 
> But it's like you're now the loser at your high school. Everyone knows you as that. Maybe you were cool for a while in elementary school, but that was a long time ago.
> 
> ...


It is only an uphill battle when you determine the spoils are not worth the struggle.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> It is only an uphill battle when you determine the spoils are not worth the struggle.



'Spoils'??? 'Struggle'??? 'Battle'???

If I wanted that I would have signed up for the Foreign Legion or the Komsomol....


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

john117 said:


> 'Spoils'??? 'Struggle'??? 'Battle'???
> 
> If I wanted that I would have signed up for the Foreign Legion or the Komsomol....


You must have forgotten that I spent 20 years as a Soldier, John.

Everything in life can be an analogy for war...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I didn't forget it... I was counting on it 

My father was career Army and WW2 veteran and my mom in WW2 Resistance. Both decorated, mom higher than dad.... I took my first ride in a tank at a very young age. But marriage shouldn't be like that...


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> So my long winded post is for you to fix yourself. Figure out what *type of man you want to be,* and make yourself that man. *Please note I said to make yourself the man you want to be, not the man she wants.* If you do that, you are improving yourself for her. That will NEVER work. *Any changes need to be made for yourself,* (but chances are it will be closer to the person she fell in love with when she met you.....)
> 
> ________________________________________________
> 
> This is the desire you are seeking, and the same thing *I myself could not live without*. You want to see that from your wife? Make yourself into a man that elicits that desire.


oh dear, 12:51am...I have orientation at like 8:00am...(this is not healthy)

BUT...

LOL....farsidejunky...i don't know why you haven't been on my "TAM radar"....but AMEN.... this is so...so... LOVELY.

EXACTLY!!!

Everything in LIFE is all about YOU, YOU, YOU (---at least, at first). 

Because---It *has to be.*

The MOST CRITICAL 'thing' WE ALL have to figure out is OUR own SELVES. 

We are OUR OWN problem. 

And based upon everything in your post----I'm certain YOU would answer the TWO *critical questions*:


Am I a man worthy of a woman's RESPECT? 

Am I a man worthy of a woman's DESIRE? 

(and Know---Desire will *ALWAYS* follow Respect)

with an honest: YES

(and most importantly, that that YES could be offered *regardless* of your wife's response to you)

because this is TRULY what your wife is *ultimately responding to*

(I know wives seem to be the torture of men SO OFTEN...but they really are the PUREST barometer of a man's PERSONAL, INDEPENDENT and INTRINSIC *sense *of Self-Worth)

The moment you recognize your own self-worth....(again...TOTALLY INDEPENDENT of *your wife's judgement of you*---it is highly likely that she will find you *terribly SEXUALLY attractive again*----

(and if she doesn't....okay, fine, whatever...it's over.....accept this...and take comfort in the fact that you can now know that it's definitely time for you to MOVE ON)

Anyway...this is GREAT....It's ridiculously worthwhile for a husband who LIVED IT...(and lived it 'correctly') to share his experience...lol....quite frankly...I accept that it WILL ALWAYS blow me out of the water....


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

HDSocal,

I liked your letter. I think a guy should be able to appear "needy" and vulnerable to his wife. She's probably the one person on the planet that it's possible for him to let down his guard; and be "needy" with. Btw, I don't think needy is bad at all. It's _human_.

If you guys both contribute about the same financially -- is that true?? And you both share equally in the work and chores that it takes to run a household and raise your son; right?

Then, I believe you have done enough "as a man" to earn your wife's love and respect.

Is she much better looking than you? Have you given up on your appearance? That can be a factor. Be honest with yourself. She should keep herself in good shape if she expects it of you though.

Married people really do owe each other sexual love. I'm using the word "owe" on purpose. Obviously, if there is sickness or recovering from childbirth; then it's different. But for the most part; you really are obligated to be a giving sexual person with your spouse. It's got to be about 50% of the reason people _get_ married in the first place: a steady supply of willing, affectionate sex.

It's up to you how much you are going to modify yourself in order to "attract your wife" to you If it's something you would do anyway ("I'm going to run a marathon this year; I've always wanted to do that"); then great, more power to you.

If you have to assume an identity that isn't you. Say, dressing up in clothes that you hate?? My advice is don't bother. You shouldn't have to be something you are not, especially with your wife; for crying out loud.

I suppose you might be being dishonest with us. I don't know why you would waste everyone's time. But if you are abusive. If you are a regular porn user. If you've cheated in the past. If you've left her to carry most of the homecare/childcare work. Well, only you know. But those could all be reasons that your wife has turned off to you.

Good luck.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

I read the letter and a few comments, but nothing else. What I write will sound harsh, but it is meant to be objective--based on what I can "observe" about your relationship, through what you have said. Ignore it if it rings false. I'm honestly trying to help, not attack you.

Reading this tells me why your wife doesn't want you, or at least part of it. This letter is all about you, and you are extremely self-centered and needy. Your neediness is a huge turn-off. 

You would not care one iota about her sexual pleasure if it wasn't tied to your needs. 

What about her pleasure, her joy, her passions (sexual and otherwise)? If you actually loved her, you would care so much more about her. There is not one selfless moment of concern or real love for her in your whole letter. 

FWIW, you should know that she may come to have an aversion to you if she is really just having sex with you to please you, without getting any pleasure from it herself. Men don't understand this very often, I've found. She may reach orgasm (or not), but that does not mean she's enjoying the sex. She's doing it b/c you want it--imagine being fed will beyond satiation with your favorite food, over and over again, when you have no hunger, no appetite, are too full and too uncomfortable. I can't know if she feels like that, but I'd put money on it that she does. 

You might want to read up on the "Walk Away Wife" syndrome; your story sounds like one in the making. 

Added:

You seem to need your wife to feel passionate so that you can feel better about yourself, as in, "Hey, I'm the type of guy whose wife gets wet just thinking about him!"

This is really the center of your neediness: you don't feel good about yourself, particularly about yourself as a sexual being. And it's not surprising that you may connect feeling bad about yourself with what you perceive as her "rejection" of you. But that, again, is a mistake.

How you feel about yourself as a person--as a sexual being--should have nothing to do with how others see/react to you--a healthy attitude about your own desirability comes from seeing yourself as desirable, no matter what. 

A lot of older people (like me) get this. I know that the outside world sees me as less attractive, less sexual. But *I* know that I am one hot mama, a sensual and sexual delight any man would be lucky to experience. I am fearless, passionate, loving, giving, without hangups about my much-less-than-perfect body, and delighted to focus on pleasing my partner, because I am already so pleased with myself! Of course, my partner feels the same about himself, and with each of us focused so much on the other's pleasure . . . well, wowza!

Don't work on yourself to become more attractive to her; work on yourself to become more attractive to you. Once you reach that point, you can think about her from a position of love and generosity--one more likely to be successful (and maybe not in the way you imagine) and satisfying. 

Again, best of luck.


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## HDsocal (Nov 19, 2010)

Trying versus faking

Let me try an analogy, lets say before I met my wife I was big hockey fan, and prior to us getting married she had never been a hockey fan, this could have three different outcomes;

a)	She pretends to like hockey because that is what she thinks I want from her, acting like she loves the game. This is faking it, she acting that she likes the game but really has no interest. Faking it
b)	She says, I have no interest, if you really want I will watch a game with you but I would rather not. She may sit there looking pissed to the point where it takes the joy out of watching the game . Not trying

c)	She says, I don’t know if I like hockey, but I do like seeing you get enjoyment, so watching hockey with you, seeing your enjoyment and being there with you is nice. Maybe make some snacks during the game for us to have together. If we go to a game, and stop for a nice dinner that is good, she likes to have a nice dinner right? Trying

Maybe she starts to like hockey, that would be nice if it happened.

Trying isn’t faking, ever spend time getting a gift for someone, really trying because you know that they will be happy or excited by the gift? What’s in it for you? The feeling you get making the other person happy (maybe they will also do nice things for you)


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

Watching hockey isn't the same as having a penis put inside of you.


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## HDsocal (Nov 19, 2010)

Neediness – Self Validation
I have been reading all the responses, there are lots of good points that people have made. Some things are tough to read, others I have already thought of, and some missed the mark, again thanks for all the responses.

Seems many of you have suggested that what I am looking for is some kind of self validation , self centered, or neediness. On this case I think you have missed the mark. ‘The List’ was only part of the letter and the talk. I didn’t include most of the letter because well, it was kind of personnel.

In our marriage (and I’m sure she would agree) I am more of the giver, have always been supportive of her, and am sincerely interested in her needs and wants too (yeah I know MMSL says this is a bad plan).

I have always been generous with her and my son, friends and family, not because I want something or feel that then I am deserved something, but because that is who I am. 

The reason for the list and why it may have come of vey one sided is I wanted to be very clear with her what I want. I didn’t want her to think that my unhappiness was because of one event, or a particular thing. If nothing else the list is a discussion starter on where we go from here.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

HD:

You are taking us to task over information you deliberately did not provide. How do you expect us to take into account what we can't see? 

What are you wanting from TAM?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Why not summarize and/or redact the rest of the letter and share that? If you wanted to, you could share the basic gist of it. 

Instead you seem inclined to lean on this theme: Well you folks don't really understand because you don't have the full picture. 

--------
I'm guessing that you came seeking validation, not assistance. 

I also find it very strange that you haven't said a thing about how your wife reacted to the letter. 






HDsocal said:


> Neediness – Self Validation
> I have been reading all the responses, there are lots of good points that people have made. Some things are tough to read, others I have already thought of, and some missed the mark, again thanks for all the responses.
> 
> Seems many of you have suggested that what I am looking for is some kind of self validation , self centered, or neediness. On this case I think you have missed the mark. ‘The List’ was only part of the letter and the talk. I didn’t include most of the letter because well, it was kind of personnel.
> ...


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

HDsocal said:


> In our marriage (and I’m sure she would agree) I am more of the giver, have always been supportive of her, and am sincerely interested in her needs and wants too (yeah I know MMSL says this is a bad plan).


If that is a bad plan, how on earth do marriages get better after reading it?

"How to get your wife to have sex with you: Don't care about her, and let her know it!"

I hope like hell my husband never takes any sort of advice to not be giving, to not care about my wants, and not be supportive of me. 

The ONLY reason we are still together is because he actually starting DOING those things. 

If that's the attitude you have, then I can not possibly see your wife in the negative light you've portrayed her.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Catherine,
> M2 is exactly like this.
> 
> I like those type encounters too. Men like variety too - we like a mix of soft and gentle as well as more edgy stuff.
> ...


MEM I can understand HDsocal's frustration with his wife dispassion. Sometimes I wonder if there are precipitating events that start downward spirals. One partner may want soft languid sex for a while without any plan on discontinuing just plain fvcking. The change of pace may be unsettling and cause anxiety and disappointment. They may start to overthink things and become self-conscious. Thinking is a passion killer.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Catherine,

Agreed.

The thing that strikes me is that they have an existing dynamic. And that dynamic is NOT producing passion for his wife. 

Hell - it's not even producing a sincere 'desire to please' him. 

But instead of designating this as a mutual issue HD has basically told her to fix herself. 

I've never seen that approach work before. 






Catherine602 said:


> MEM I can understand HDsocal's frustration with his wife dispassion. Sometimes I wonder if there are precipitating events that start downward spirals. One partner may want soft languid sex for a while without any plan on discontinuing just plain fvcking. The change of pace may be unsettling and cause anxiety and disappointment. They may start to overthink things and become self-conscious. Thinking is a passion killer.


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## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

hi there,

you mentioned that you are the 'giving person'. Does your wife see you that way? The reason I ask is that I've come to realize through almost 2 years of counselling that one of the biggest disfunctions of our marriage and any marriage really is the breakdown in communication. If you think you are giving all the time, is she receiving? Or does she not receive your gifts as gifts and rather as burdens or something else?

I read your initial letter and as a wife who is not attracted in her husband I can say that if my husband wrote me this, I'd be less interested, less attracted, and more distant. Sex is uninteresting with him , it's dull, it's always the same, boring. We have fixed a lot about our marriage but the sex is still dull. Every so often I tell myself to "try"... but ultimately, passion and sex can only be born out of respect, attraction, and good timing. 

I guess if you want her to want you perhaps you should focus on her wants, ask her what she wants ask her if there's something you can do to make yourself more "sexy" to her. If it's something you want to and feel like you can do, then do it. If it's not, then don't. Sometimes we're not willing to ask the question because we don't actually want the answer. If you ask her "honey what would make me more attractive " and she says A, B or C... then what, what if that is outside of your willingness? What if the answer is something you don't want to hear? 

I don't think strong relationships and passionate ones like you seem to be seeking are built on secrets, lies and "putting up with". You want passion, then state your desires and ask her what hers are, if they fit... then great, if not... it's time to take different paths.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

If you are already giving, giving, giving, then giving more is unlikely to have much effect. It could actually make things worse.

I think you really need to take a step back and ask yourself WHY you are doing what you do?

Take a step back from the relationship for a month or two and just focus on yourself.

This will do two things:

1. Take the pressure off your wife.

2. Allow you to have the space to really consider your actions. 

When you begin to reengage, do so deliberately. Before you do anything for your wife understand why you are doing it. REALLY understand. 

Are you secretly hoping she'll notice? Are you secretly making a deposit hoping to withdraw it later? Be honest. If you see yourself being motivated in this way, stop and DON'T DO IT.

I think you have probably devalued your contributions to the relationship. You need to reestablish your perspective, your sense of self worth and value. When you share yourself with your wife, you must do it entirely within this framework of self worth. 

When you know your value, you will stop being frivolous with it.


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## HDsocal (Nov 19, 2010)

Wow the tide goes both ways on this one…

Let start with the rest of the letter, plus it is important to remember that the letter was given as part of a talk, it wasn’t meant to be stand alone. Things from the letter,

Setting Expectations. Standing up to their spouses behaviors (ok start the flaming now) My wife’s cousin married a woman that acts a little erratic, plus demands a lot from him. He works very hard (like 60-80 hour weeks) and is a really good guy, she expects a lot from him and doesn’t let him relax or enjoy himself. My wife and I wondered why he puts up with this, and why early in the marriage he didn’t let her know what he wanted and expected. I mentioned that in the letter that I should have not let things go as long as they did without drawing the line.

The talk(s). I talked about some of ‘the talks’ we had, and how they ended with the same promises without follow up, and how I let this go without any consequences. I told her that this wouldn’t be the case anymore.

Do you understand how big a problem this is? I wrote to her and told her that sexual incompatibility can end marriages. I told her when she responds to my pleas with ambivalence it tells me she doesn’t value the marriage or me. I told her the physical and mental toll it is taking on me. I asked her if I was on the floor bleeding would you come help? Whey wound you come help now?

When it is good it is good. I wrote about some times when we genuinely connected, specific examples and how wonderful it felt. I asked her to think about what made us connect on those occasions.

Us problem. I wrote about how this is a problem we both need to work through, it isn’t my problem or her problem but is both of our problems. She needs to reach out and tell me what I can do to help, and needs to be sincere in trying to work on the things I know we can do.

Action Items. Not in the letter but in ‘the talk’ we listed a few action items things we would work on together.

Weekly Follow Up. We picked a day of the week where we would sit and talk about how things are going. By setting aside a specific time and date it keeps the discussion from being overcome by life and events. This is to try and keep the communications going.

We picked a day of the week that would be for ‘good sex’, the idea was to prioritize it, not to say that this becomes the only day a week we have sex, but to have that one day where we know it is coming and can work on making it special, think of when you were younger and had the big date coming up. We each talked about things that we each would like to make this special.

Date Night, we picked a number of days over the next few months to go out. Reconnecting as a couple, again the idea is to make the relationship a priority.

Pick a book, read it and follow through. We decided to pick one of the ‘help books’ to read together. We picked it out together and stared reading it. I suggested if the book isn’t enough we may need to go for outside help.

And her response to the letter and talk was…
She started with ‘I know you haven’t been happy’, I don’t know if this made me feel better or worse. She said she understands how important this is and really does want to work on keeping our marriage.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Okay, HD. Now you have painted a clearer picture. But you still are withholding information. _You_ came _here_ for advice. And advice you will receive. But it could be potentially terrible advice if you keep withholding the information, like you just did _again_.



HDsocal said:


> And her response to the letter and talk was…She started with ‘I know you haven’t been happy’, I don’t know if this made me feel better or worse. She said she understands how important this is and really does want to work on keeping our marriage.


:scratchhead:

What was her complete response? Did you explain to her how her knowing but not doing made you feel? If so, her response?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

HD-- even with this new info, it still looks like a list of demands from her.

Why do you think that asking her now is going to get her to do these things when you already asked her before and she failed?

Here is how I see this playing out:

She makes a half hearted attempt to please you once or twice and then you settle back into the same dynamic. 

You will have your weekly meetings and ask her the same questions again and again and eventually you will stop having the meetings because one or both of you realize they are pointless.

I am not trying to be a d--k, but if it was as simple as just asking her, you would have already solved the problem.

Honestly-- how are you going to "hold her to it"? Why would you even want to do that?


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

> The talk(s). I talked about some of ‘the talks’ we had, and how they ended with the same promises without follow up, and how I let this go without any consequences. I told her that this wouldn’t be the case anymore.


Has it not crossed your mind that her not having passionate sex with you is YOU experiencing a consequence of YOU not following up, or not doing something, that she wants?



> Do you understand how big a problem this is? I wrote to her and told her that sexual incompatibility can end marriages. I told her when she responds to my pleas with ambivalence it tells me she doesn’t value the marriage or me. I told her the physical and mental toll it is taking on me. I asked her if I was on the floor bleeding would you come help? Whey wound you come help now?


No one dies of lack of sex. Histrionic, much? If my DH told me this, I'd tell him to go suck air. Trying to compare lack of sex to literally bleeding out is just ridiculous. I would bet money that is what your wife thinks, too. 

Was there a point in your marriage where she pleaded with you to do something, you didn't, and so she quit? If so, she has learned that you will not give her what she needs, and so she has no motivation to give you what you say you need. After all, if her needs aren't needs to you, then your needs aren't needs to her.



> When it is good it is good. I wrote about some times when we genuinely connected, specific examples and how wonderful it felt. I asked her to think about what made us connect on those occasions.


Did you bother to ask her, "How did YOU experience those occasions" or was it just more about you, you, and you? You assumed it was great for her. There is no room in a marriage for assumptions.



> Us problem. I wrote about how this is a problem we both need to work through, it isn’t my problem or her problem but is both of our problems. She needs to reach out and tell me what I can do to help, and needs to be sincere in trying to work on the things I know we can do.


Maybe she can't do it. Maybe saying to her, "I know we can do this" is creating an unrelenting pressure on her to be someone she knows she can't be, for whatever reason, and the weight of that is crushing her.



> Action Items. Not in the letter but in ‘the talk’ we listed a few action items things we would work on together.
> 
> Weekly Follow Up. We picked a day of the week where we would sit and talk about how things are going. By setting aside a specific time and date it keeps the discussion from being overcome by life and events. This is to try and keep the communications going.


This is a good thing for all couples to do, although I don't know how well it's going to go if you keep this same approach. It's like you've created a parent/child dynamic. "Now Suzie, it's Friday, and you said you'd keep your room clean. I saw a dirty room all week long. Why didn't you clean your room? There's going to be consequences for this." 

Not exactly sexy, is it?



> We picked a day of the week that would be for ‘good sex’, the idea was to prioritize it, not to say that this becomes the only day a week we have sex, but to have that one day where we know it is coming and can work on making it special, think of when you were younger and had the big date coming up. We each talked about things that we each would like to make this special.


And I suppose you will be judge, jury, and executioner when it comes to whether it is "good sex"?

What happens if you think it's amazing and she didn't? What is she fakes excitement? 



> Date Night, we picked a number of days over the next few months to go out. Reconnecting as a couple, again the idea is to make the relationship a priority.


Again, something every couple should do.



> Pick a book, read it and follow through. We decided to pick one of the ‘help books’ to read together. We picked it out together and stared reading it. I suggested if the book isn’t enough we may need to go for outside help.


I've read quite a few marriage books. A lot of them I found to be total bunk, or not at all helpful. What book did you choose?



> And her response to the letter and talk was…
> She started with ‘I know you haven’t been happy’, I don’t know if this made me feel better or worse. She said she understands how important this is and really does want to work on keeping our marriage.


"I know you haven't been happy" translates to "I have to say something to acknowledge you aren't happy so I don't look uncaring, but I kinda actually don't care." 

I have to wonder if your wife is afraid of you in some way. Does she stand up to you, or is she generally passive? And you can't say "she doesn't have sex with me" as proof that she isn't passive. There are 23 other hours in a day.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

OP, is your wife passionate about anything? A hobby, for example. Maybe she's just not a passionate person.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HD,

I forgot to ask this. Are you in good physical condition? At a healthy body weight? How about your wife? 

How comfortable are you asking your wife what she likes, and doesn't like about sex with you? 





HDsocal said:


> Wow the tide goes both ways on this one…
> 
> Let start with the rest of the letter, plus it is important to remember that the letter was given as part of a talk, it wasn’t meant to be stand alone. Things from the letter,
> 
> ...


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I've been in a similar place in two marriages now. The first wasn't solvable; she was LD and I was HD. She uses sex to get men, then shuts the taps off -- because she doesn't actually like sex.

So what I'm about to say is with the expectation that this isn't the case, I don't know how to fix that one except to settle or leave.

Current wife likes sex, but we hit a dry spell. I read MMSLP, stuff here, a ton of other stuff. I'm nowhere near cracking any kind of emotional vulnerability but I have cracked our attraction problem.

Because that's what it was, what I didn't want to look at. I was actively turning my wife off in so many ways that she could (and still can't admit) and that I didn't want to see.

Your letter is great. For you. It's what you want, I'm glad you're clear on your vision. And you're open about expectations, that's also good.

But you just put a ton of weight in the form of expectations on her. Expectations aren't sexy.

Do you know what turns your wife on? Do you know what turns her off? Do you know what turns her off about you?

For me, there were several areas I needed to shore up, in no particular order:

- physical - lose the gut, add some muscle mass. I suddenly clued in to what she found attractive in other guys... e.g. why she would drool every time the werewolf guy from True Blood came on the screen. She digs muscles and a lack of a pot belly. Who would have guessed it? Easy fix there, diet & exercise.

- appearance: again, duh. Guys that dressed in nice suits or casual clothes, nice shoes, nice hair all turned her head. A touch of the metrosexual helped here. Again, easy. Found a gay guy in one of the cooler stores downtown, he sorted me out and fast.

- behaviour: this is where it got hard. I had to stop expecting sex. I had to stop chasing sex. I had to stop asking for sex at all -- I would simply attempt to take it when I wanted it. That's sexy, at least to my wife. Don't ask, take. But to caution -- take no for an answer, and don't be pissy about it. Go off and do something else fun instead. Act like it doesn't matter to you at all. Never act needy or insecure became my sex motto.

- have a plan. If you want something, do you actually have it sorted? If you want sex tonight, are the conditions right? Kids in bed, new sheets on the bed, warm, comfortable environment, and most importantly have you been seducing her all throughout the day?

- get my crap done. By this, I mean keep the stuff I was responsible for sorted. If my wife worried about the garbage being taken out or the roof leaking or her tires being low, guess what, she wasn't "in the mood."

- have my own life. My marriage problems usually came about when I made my wife my world. That isn't sexy to my wife; she wants to see a driven, ambitious, strong guy that has his own stuff going on.

Much more, but thats the stuff that really got the ball rolling in the sack.

And even now when we have problems, sex isn't one of them.

Hope this helps... disregard if it doesn't.

As I said, I have no idea what to do with a LD woman, and basically mean to say stop pushing on a rope -- you pull on a rope.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> HD-- even with this new info, it still looks like a list of demands from her.
> 
> Why do you think that asking her now is going to get her to do these things when you already asked her before and she failed?
> 
> ...


THIS. Pleading, references to being wounded and bleeding, setting up meetings and requirements might make her feel guilty which may yield a change for a few weeks. But guilt does not real change make. And guilt is never ever going to lead to passion. Have you tried MMSP?


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

I went through something very similar with my exH... and hindsight all the lack of passion I felt for him was in no way sexual. He was a hard worker, not ambitious, liked to be taken care of - I'm extremely independent. I'd hurt his pride, he'd retreat or lash out. We had many other issues, but I can tell you for me these things tanked his sex rank.... and had I gotten your letter at certain points of my own life, it'd have irritated me regardless of how genuine or well-intended it was.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

marduk said:


> *Marduk,
> 
> I'm just picking your post because it touches on issues I've wondered about.
> *
> ...


*It just exasperates me that one married person has to jump through hoops in order to get sex from . . . their spouse!!!*


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

HD,
You want what we all want but few receive. I believe you can fuel passion, I'm not so sure you can create it. Your wife (and mine) do not feel the passion nor do they understand our need for it. Agreed, it is a two way street but after traveling so long going only one direction, the road has narrowed to little more than an alleyway and I am not even sure the road will support two way traffic. I have told my wife countless times that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. If the horse is not thirsty, it's not thirsty.

I believe our efforts would be better served if we concentrate less on conversation and more on making the horse thirsty. The question is can this be done and if so, how? One poster has suggested it requires being powerful but that is in the eye of the beholder. Many powerful men throughout history have been cheated on by their women so power, not perceived as such, is of little value. I do feel that expressing your wants does tend to put more "power" on her and make you look more dependent than powerful. Although you would tend to think that this would stir in her a desire to fulfill your needs it seems to have the opposite effect. However, I have expressed my needs to my wife similarly to the way you did. Then I began to detach and focus on other areas of life showing little concern as to whether she meets them or not. I have busied myself with my hobby and have actually told her that we should both move on and find what we really want, actually reaching a point where it's not just a ploy anymore, I really mean it and that has had no effect either.

I would like to believe that, with highly developed cognitive thought, communication is a key tool in accomplishing objectives but I have found it not to be the case. It simply fuels the frustration.

I have come to believe that some people are simply content with "comfortable" and that mediocrity is some people's nirvana. They are of little depth and cannot understand those of us who can see the potential for so much more. Because I am stubborn to a fault, I will not give up until I have exhausted every last possibility at which time I will admit defeat and move on. Good luck to you.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

intheory said:


> Marduk,
> 
> I'm just picking your post because it touches on issues I've wondered about.
> 
> ...


She's a drop dead hottie, has been an elite athlete in the recent past, and could work most crossfit trainers into the ground.

To answer your question, yes. The only time she was ever overweight is during pregnancy or soon thereafter. 

Sure, she could lose 10-15 lbs. But that's about it.


> - appearance: again, duh. Guys that dressed in nice suits or casual clothes, nice shoes, nice hair all turned her head. A touch of the metrosexual helped here. Again, easy. Found a gay guy in one of the cooler stores downtown, he sorted me out and fast.
> 
> ^^^Are you even remotely interested in fashion (for yourself). Does your wife dress sharp.. Styled hair, make-up, mani-pedi's, lingerie, heels etc. Done the way Marduk likes to see a woman? And you had a gay guy tell you, a straight guy, how to dress??


I have less than zero interest in fashion. Never had the inclination or the time.

Yup, I had a gay guy tell me things like how I was making myself look fatter than I actually was by wearing clothes that don't fit. Even things like colors that work and don't work, cuts that work and don't work, that kind of thing.

And, dammit, he was _right_.

Wife usually dresses sharp. I'm lucky that she hasn't gone down the path some women go down in their late 30s -- cut their hair short, stop putting makeup on when they go out, that kind of thing. I lucked out there -- she enjoys looking good this way.



> - behaviour: this is where it got hard. I had to stop expecting sex. I had to stop chasing sex. I had to stop asking for sex at all -- I would simply attempt to take it when I wanted it. That's sexy, at least to my wife. Don't ask, take. But to caution -- take no for an answer, and don't be pissy about it. Go off and do something else fun instead. Act like it doesn't matter to you at all. Never act needy or insecure became my sex motto.
> 
> ^^^ But this is dishonest. Sex does matter to you. Why act otherwise. You do need sex. What's wrong with admitting that to your wife. If she loves you "just taking", and you do too; then that's great.


It's not dishonest if you have a plan B that you are also happy to do. Listen, sex is pretty much my #1 activity. But there's quite a few #2's or even just things that put a smile on my face. For me it's things like working out, mountain biking, skiing, shooting some pool, listening to music, having some scotch, a hot tub, cigar... lots of things. When I hear a no I go do something like that and be happy about it.

And sex does matter to me, otherwise I wouldn't be trying to have it. The thing is to not _need_ it. I think of it like the bad boy on a motorbike... what happens if a woman turns him down? 

He just goes and finds another woman. I my case, I'm married and not going to do that. But what I can do is still be happy if I get shot down tonight.

And being happy and enjoying life is pretty attractive, I think.


> - have a plan. If you want something, do you actually have it sorted? If you want sex tonight, are the conditions right? Kids in bed, new sheets on the bed, warm, comfortable environment, and most importantly have you been seducing her all throughout the day?
> 
> ^^^Why must you do all the planning? Can you say to your wife. "Change the sheets. I want them clean for tonight." Why shouldn't she carry some of this load. And, has she been trying to seduce you all day. Or, is this your responsibility as well?


Funny, the more I did this, the more she started doing this, too...

Somebody's gotta take the lead.


> - get my crap done. By this, I mean keep the stuff I was responsible for sorted. If my wife worried about the garbage being taken out or the roof leaking or her tires being low, guess what, she wasn't "in the mood."
> 
> ^^^Does she get her stuff sorted? Clean house, nicely prepared meals et.al. If she doesn't, guess what, you aren't in the mood to share all of your paycheck with her.


She does now. 



> - have my own life. My marriage problems usually came about when I made my wife my world. That isn't sexy to my wife; she wants to see a driven, ambitious, strong guy that has his own stuff going on.
> 
> ^^^Agree. But you should never have given up all of your interests in the first place.
> It just exasperates me that one married person has to jump through hoops in order to get sex from . . . their spouse!!!


My biggest advice is to kill this thought.

A ring isn't a magic get laid whenever you want talisman, guaranteeing endless sex.

A ring is just (hopefully) a guarantee she won't have sex with someone else.

Nobody promised you sex.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Marduk,

You have an excellent overall mindset on this. 

I actually agree that no one owes you sex. I ALSO believe that by default, your life partner (if they wish to continue in that role) owes you the TRUTH. 

The most frequently told lies on TAM are:
1. I have no idea why I've lost desire for my partner
2. I have no idea why my partner has lost desire for me
closely followed by.....
3. Other than sex, the marriage really is perfect 

Denial becomes a remarkably popular activity in sex starved marriages......





marduk said:


> She's a drop dead hottie, has been an elite athlete in the recent past, and could work most crossfit trainers into the ground.
> 
> To answer your question, yes. The only time she was ever overweight is during pregnancy or soon thereafter.
> 
> ...


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Some truths are hard to see, tho. It's pretty easy to tell yourself that your partner's weight, or sarcasm, or poor hygiene, or whatever thing doesn't impact your desire...

What I mean is sometimes we can be surprised by our own sexual response, or lack thereof. I didn't decide to like what I am attracted to, I just am. It's not something I have conscious control over.

And neither does my wife. It just is.

She might not have been consciously aware that my gut was turning her off, or she might not have been willing to admit it to either herself or me.

And there's a lot of "shoulds" in life. I should love my wife, I should be attracted to her, I should want to have sex within X or Y boundaries, or X times a week, etc...

It doesn't mean this is how your body actually responds or what your body actually wants.

One really, really disturbing thing I learned on my journey was...

My wife had more than one friend that was happy to live without sex with their husbands, could take it or leave it... and their husbands were convinced their wives just had a low sex drive or that after kids it was just gone.

But they sure noticed when I got in shape and started dressing better...

I'm not saying that you need to be a super model. What I'm saying is that you need to be aware of your spouse's turn ons and turn-offs, no matter what words come out of their mouth, and in a non-judgemental way. Because attraction is what it is.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

intheory said:


> *It just exasperates me that one married person has to jump through hoops in order to get sex from . . . their spouse!!!*


It's not jumping through hoops, it's bringing your A game like you did while dating. Marriage doesn't entitle anyone to sex, it's a legal contract where both parties agree to comingle their lives while forsaking others. Sex isn't explicitly part of the vows, it's implied in the love, honor, and cherish part which translates to being a good partner and bringing your A game. You can't cherry pick sex out of that, you get it as part of the whole package. That's always been true, even while dating you can't treat a partner poorly or not bring your A game and expect sex......providing a ring doesn't change that. 

If you've done all you can to be a good partner and still get no sex that's completely different but often this is not the case.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

lifeistooshort said:


> It's not jumping through hoops, it's bringing your A game like you did while dating. Marriage doesn't entitle anyone to sex, it's a legal contract where both parties agree to comingle their lives while forsaking others. Sex isn't explicitly part of the vows, it's implied in the love, honor, and cherish part which translates to being a good partner and bringing your A game. You can't cherry pick sex out of that, you get it as part of the whole package. That's always been true, even while dating you can't treat a partner poorly or not bring your A game and expect sex......providing a ring doesn't change that.
> 
> If you've done all you can to be a good partner and still get no sex that's completely different but often this is not the case.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yup, and it's a win-win situation. 

If you improve yourself, and your spouse responds to that, you win. 

If your spouse doesn't respond to that, and you split, you'll find a better match more easily. 

You win either way. 

No words can achieve that.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

marduk said:


> Yup, and it's a win-win situation.
> 
> If you improve yourself, and your spouse responds to that, you win.
> 
> ...


Amen. Glad you worked this out :smthumbup:


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