# Hi, Mrs. Music Man here



## MrsMM

Yes, the wife of @Music_Man. Saying hello in this forum per the forum rules, then I'll make a quick post in DH's thread when I can. A little nervous about being here, given the reason I'm here, but I've been through much worse than worrying about what a few strangers think :smile2: Besides, you don't stay in my profession very long without developing a bit of a thick skin :smile2:

I'm not sure how much time I'll even have for this, I believe DH has indicated how things are at work right now, plus our recovery and the kids and, well, you get it. My posting will be mostly at night and it might be several days between responses. 

My hope is to help others however I can, as long as it's not at the expense of our recovery. Anyway, hope to hang around when I can and meet some of you good folks of TAM. Oh, and thanks for welcoming @Music_Man and for being taking an active role in his recovery. If you haven't figured it out yet, he's a GREAT guy. So thankful I haven't lost him.


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## TAMAT

MMM,

Welcome, be glad your BH found this place too.

It's rare that someone comes as close as you did to a masterful serial cheater and escapes a physical affair.

When did you realize the true nature of the OM?


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## sokillme

I complement you on your bravery. I suspect you will face some tough questions. I suspect I might be asking some of them, ha! Anyway I do think if you stick around and are sincere in your desire to correct your mistakes you may even find that some of us hard asses will give you a grudging respect.


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## MattMatt

MrsMM said:


> Yes, the wife of @Music_Man. Saying hello in this forum per the forum rules, then I'll make a quick post in DH's thread when I can. A little nervous about being here, given the reason I'm here, but I've been through much worse than worrying about what a few strangers think :smile2: Besides, you don't stay in my profession very long without developing a bit of a thick skin :smile2:
> 
> I'm not sure how much time I'll even have for this, I believe DH has indicated how things are at work right now, plus our recovery and the kids and, well, you get it. My posting will be mostly at night and it might be several days between responses.
> 
> My hope is to help others however I can, as long as it's not at the expense of our recovery. Anyway, hope to hang around when I can and meet some of you good folks of TAM. Oh, and thanks for welcoming @Music_Man and for being taking an active role in his recovery. If you haven't figured it out yet, he's a GREAT guy. So thankful I haven't lost him.


Good morning, @MrsMM. Welcome! It's good to see you here.


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## MrsMM

TAMAT said:


> MMM,
> 
> Welcome, be glad your BH found this place too.
> 
> It's rare that someone comes as close as you did to a masterful serial cheater and escapes a physical affair.
> 
> When did you realize the true nature of the OM?


Like many others, I was in this thing before I really realized it. Some will call BS on that, I'm sure, but I certainly didn't seek him out or ever consciously think "jeez, I think I'll have an affair". We had been texting as friends for a few months, and really, I was getting drawn in and had let my guard down without realizing it until much later. And as my DH has said earlier, there were no appropriate boundaries. Other than an occasional casual flirt from a doctor or coworker over the years, there was never anything of even mild concern. And when I say flirt, these things were things said out in the open in front of others, not texts or even a word behind closed doors. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I had never encountered someone who actually pursued me on a continual basis, and doing so by just being a 'friend'. 

We talked for months the way I would talk to any of my girlfriends. Talked about cases, coworkers, shared silly memes, etc, but nothing that would be considered even flirting; but my guard was down, I was disarmed and I'm sure he knew it. Then casual comments about liking the way my hair was, or liking the color of my scrubs, or asking if I'd lost weight or something similar. Stupidly, I was flattered. He also constantly complimented me on my work ethic, the way I ran things, pretty much everything I did. And I enjoyed that more than anything he ever said to me, and that's the God's honest truth. We never really had a cross word until I started turning him down. Remember, he was a visiting doc and none of us knew about his 'escapades' at his hospital. He talked about his wife and family often, never disparaging her in any way. We all thought he was a stand-up guy. He met us at runs and even joked around with my DH when he was around. I just didn't see the red flags.

When he first really crossed the line, and this is one of THE most painful things for me because there are a MILLION ways I SHOULD have answered him, and I failed miserably. It was at the end of the day and this how most days ended, in terms of a closing text from me. It was nothing unusual, just my normal text I would send to any surgeon at the end of the day. He was already upstairs about to start making rounds, and it went like this- me: hey doc, we're all finished up down here. Rooms are set for tomorrow, and your on-call team has been notified and is now at the ready. Let me know if you need anything else before we all get out of here. Him: I just need you. 

I could have and should have stopped things before they ever got going right then and there, but I was stupid. REALLY stupid. I simply sent him a smiley emoji and he sent one back and that's all that was said for several days, but I had given him an open door, and it absolutely positively haunts me like nothing you can imagine. He was smart, he took his time, and little by little I allowed more and more.

Still, I didn't _really_ see his true colors until I started pushing back. I was already growing weary of the filthy talk. He wasn't complementing me anymore, he wasn't talking about running or people or whatever, he was just trying to talk sex. I called him out on it, and he turned on me. Not hard at first, but once he started trying to get me to meet him places or go somewhere with him and I declined, he lost it. Literally went overnight from "come on, let's get serious and find a bed, enough talk" to "get my damn room set up now! What the hell is wrong with you? Get your crap together!" and in the meanest tone possible, and in front of my crew. My eyes were opened and opened BIG time. I thought, this must be how Eve felt in the garden. I was ashamed. I spent every spare moment running to the bathroom to cry my eyes out and then trying to compose myself to get through the day. I knew I had to get away from him, to get away from that place altogether, so I did. 

You mention escaping a PA with a serial cheater. For me, it really is this simple: I wasn't looking for sex, wasn't looking for love, or any of that. And while my boundaries were poor, I was absolutely not going to sleep with him or even fool around or make out. My morals and values, while compromised, still had a large effect. And I absolutely could have never done that to my DH. If I had, this would have been over 6 years ago because I never could have held that from my husband. 

His attempt at a kiss was also a big eye-opener and we cooled quite a bit after that, and when he started back, he skipped the pleasantries and went straight for his ultimate goal. It would have ended soon and he knew it- I was pushing back on the sex talk by now so he rolled the dice.

It took me an incredibly long time to be able to look at myself again as a decent person. And my poor DH, who suspected this guy of being a creep from almost day 1, was undeserving of all of this pain. I thought I could protect him, thought I could protect us. I was wrong. He deserved to know, but it had to be on God's timing. Some will call BS on that as well, and I'll expand more later.

Thanks for reading- I have to log off for a bit to handle some work responsibilities, but I will be back later in the week or this weekend perhaps if time permits.


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## MattMatt

@MrsMM He could have been targeting pensioners to steal their income ("but he seemed so nice! So trustworthy!") or targeting nurses, other doctors or support staff for affairs("Before I knew what was happening, we were in bed together").

He is an immoral and amoral smooth talking rotter.


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## turnera

Welcome! I'm an amateur psychologist, so I know exactly what you're talking about in terms of the OM. In fact, I predicted it on your husband's thread. Men usually cheat for sex and pretend to care to get the woman's pants off. Women usually cheat for emotion and give up the sex to get the caring. And ******* men prey on women like that. Why I give a lot of passes for women like that. 

I grew up around men, so I KNOW how much of an ******* men can be, just to get more sex. But many women think men think like them, and are just looking for some emotion. And they get sucked in. Why more women should educate themselves.

Anyhoo, welcome, you can learn a LOT here about how to have an amazing marriage, if you are indeed being given a second chance.


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## sokillme

So I suppose you are on here at least to be challenged at least a little bit. I would think even if I am wrong it would be good for you to at least have a different perspective, so as is my want I am going to do that. 



MrsMM said:


> When he first really crossed the line, and this is one of THE most painful things for me because there are a MILLION ways I SHOULD have answered him, and I failed miserably. It was at the end of the day and this how most days ended, in terms of a closing text from me. It was nothing unusual, just my normal text I would send to any surgeon at the end of the day. He was already upstairs about to start making rounds, and it went like this- me: hey doc, we're all finished up down here. Rooms are set for tomorrow, and your on-call team has been notified and is now at the ready. Let me know if you need anything else before we all get out of here. Him: I just need you.
> 
> I could have and should have stopped things before they ever got going right then and there, but I was stupid. REALLY stupid. I simply sent him a smiley emoji and he sent one back and that's all that was said for several days, but I had given him an open door, and it absolutely positively haunts me like nothing you can imagine. He was smart, he took his time, and little by little I allowed more and more.
> *
> This seems to stretch believably a little in my mind. Are you sure you didn't like the attention? You obviously knew that wasn't appropriate at some point right? Especially with that last "I need you" stuff. If you didn't want to be confrontational why not just not respond? Come on you are a married lady you knew better, seems like you made a choice to respond in a way to keep it going just enough to skirt the edges. Besides that in you next paragraph and from your husband's post it got to be sexual, you obviously knew it was wrong at that point right? The normal response would be to shut that stuff down right away if you wanted to end it. I think you are really letting yourself off the hook here (maybe not in general, but here)
> *
> Still, I didn't _really_ see his true colors until I started pushing back. I was already growing weary of the filthy talk. He wasn't complementing me anymore, he wasn't talking about running or people or whatever, he was just trying to talk sex. I called him out on it, and he turned on me. Not hard at first, but once he started trying to get me to meet him places or go somewhere with him and I declined, he lost it. Literally went overnight from "come on, let's get serious and find a bed, enough talk" to "get my damn room set up now! What the hell is wrong with you? Get your crap together!" and in the meanest tone possible, and in front of my crew. My eyes were opened and opened BIG time. I thought, this must be how Eve felt in the garden. I was ashamed. I spent every spare moment running to the bathroom to cry my eyes out and then trying to compose myself to get through the day. I knew I had to get away from him, to get away from that place altogether, so I did.
> 
> *
> Which begs the question what would have happened if he had continued to play a slower game and not lost his patience? At least something to think about.*
> 
> You mention escaping a PA with a serial cheater. For me, it really is this simple: I wasn't looking for sex, wasn't looking for love, or any of that. And while my boundaries were poor, I was absolutely not going to sleep with him or even fool around or make out. My morals and values, while compromised, still had a large effect. And I absolutely could have never done that to my DH. If I had, this would have been over 6 years ago because I never could have held that from my husband.
> 
> *My opinion from your husbands telling of the story is this could have been anyone. As you say it wasn't about being lonely or wanting a thrill I wonder if this wasn't really just about your ego, what I mean by that is maybe you had a kind of a mid life crisis and this man's attention probably reinforced some areas where you were having some doubts about yourself. Pretty common stuff in affairs. Or you also seem to be quite accomplished, well educated very successful at your job, maybe it was pride. Maybe you like the idea that this accomplished Doctor(who from the sound of it was well respected in your work universe at least back then) was interested in you. It can be easy to separate those universes (work/home) if you are not careful. I personally think you are actually both lucky he was some boorish pig as his being such probably shocked you to your senses.
> 
> If you read a lot of these stories, yours had all the typical signs. It seems especially for women but some men too that most affairs are not about looking for sex or love, they are about looking for affirmation or re-enforcement. Classic mid-life crisis stuff. That was were you were headed.*
> 
> His attempt at a kiss was also a big eye-opener and we cooled quite a bit after that, and when he started back, he skipped the pleasantries and went straight for his ultimate goal. It would have ended soon and he knew it- I was pushing back on the sex talk by now so he rolled the dice.
> *
> Again you couldn't have been so naive to think that a grown man who is continuing to send you sexual texts wasn't going to continue to push it until you stopped him, could you? Have you been around many men? You work with alpha types like Doctors every day, sorry I just don't think this makes a lot of sense. Really, are you sure you are being truthful with yourself when you say this?*
> 
> It took me an incredibly long time to be able to look at myself again as a decent person. And my poor DH, who suspected this guy of being a creep from almost day 1, was undeserving of all of this pain. I thought I could protect him, thought I could protect us. I was wrong. He deserved to know, but it had to be on God's timing. Some will call BS on that as well, and I'll expand more later.
> 
> *You should get the book "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" if you haven't already.*
> 
> Thanks for reading- I have to log off for a bit to handle some work responsibilities, but I will be back later in the week or this weekend perhaps if time permits.


So I am not nice on here, and I pretty much always challenge if I think something doesn't make sense of feel truthful. Feel free to tell me to F-off if you want as you won't be the first. I should also say, most of the time i don't believe in reconciliation because in my opinion most of the time it seems like struggling SO HARD for so little in the end. That being said I have told your husband and I will say to you that I think you guys should try. I think you came to your senses in time to avoid doing game ending damage. I also feel like it's very clear that your affair had nothing to do with this guy and all to do with some stuff you were dealing with and went about the wrong way. For the most part it was one way, you're more passively guilty then actively, which for me at least would make it possible to move forward. 

That being said I think you are not being truthful with yourself about why you did what you did. I mean I understand at first you thought it was just colleague stuff but sounds like your husband was already sensing something was off, and at the point when he went from flirting with you (which why are you doing that at work to begin with, or just in general when you are married) to out and out saying he was into you, THEN you had to know what you were doing was wrong. Isn't it more reasonable that you liked the attention and you thought you could handle it and your husband wouldn't find out? Maybe, since you were being passive as I say, you were able to allow yourself to continue even though deep down you knew it was not right. I mean it's not like he brainwashed you, at some point you had to know at the very least it was inappropriate? Let's take your marriage out of the equation if you want and just say your role on your job. It's hard for me to believe that such an accomplished nurse didn't at some point know that getting sexual texts from a work colleague was wrong and could get you into trouble. If it is wrong for your job how much more for your marriage. 

I am challenge you here because I know that this **** is like cancer. You have to cut it out to the very last molecule or it will fester and grow. If you are not really being truthful deep down you both know it and that will create problems. Better to say "I did it because there was a part of me that liked it, even though I knew it was wrong" and fix that issue, then to say "I had not idea what I was doing and somehow just kind of ended up one day with him kissing me". Again I say that because deep down you both know that doesn't make sense, you both know you are too smart for that. You can heal from I made a very bad choice. You can't heal from I had no idea what I was doing while shrugging your shoulders. Like Chemo it will be more painful at first but in the long run you will have a new honest starting point. 

At least in my mind I think if you make this into a situation where some master manipulator set you up you won't learn the true lesson in this and you won't really heal your marriage or correct you character issues. Maybe the better question you should be asking is what was it about this texting affair that you enjoyed about it, and why did you not seek that from your husband. Why were you willing to trade your honor. How can you better address your needs in a more appropriate way going forward. Also excepting that this is a character failing in you that you will need to be on your guard against with better boundaries. Look we all have to do that because we all have our temptations.

Finally continuing in that vain and forgive me for being so forward here, maybe I am totally off with this last part but I want to mention it because it's something I have thought of since hearing your story. Since I know you are a Church going women I suspect that maybe you have been taught that some of this sexual flirting is wrong and it became kind of like forbidden fruit. Meaning maybe you were even surprised that you would actually enjoy something like that. But it's not wrong when it is with your husband. I just know from my years in the church that many Christians get it wrong and see the sex as wrong, but crazy unadulterated lust and sex is perfectly appropriate when it's with your spouse, that is what a big part of what marriage is meant to be, for both of you. I think many Christians misguidedly don't allow themselves to be open about their sexual nature with their spouses because they have this misplaced guilt because of the puritanical teaching that goes on. This is especially true for women with the strong emphasis on purity. Because of this sometimes people get a kind of "Madonna ***** Complex", but that is not biblical. There is this part of there nature that they are afraid of because the think it is wrong when they should be celebrating it in an appropriate way with their spouse. There is nothing sinful about being sexually free and completely open with your spouse. Again forgive me for being so blunt here. When you both are healed enough maybe you should explore this side of yourself with you husband.


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## MrsMM

@sokillme

From reading DH's thread and browsing others, I suspected a lengthy response from you. I won't get into a big back and forth here either, but I will answer as best I can to this response. No time tackle all of this, but I will say the following- much of this has been talked about in my IC and our MC sessions. And yes, I've read that book already- twice. 

Ego played a part, for certain. Note that I didn't say that I didn't like the attention, I just preferred the ego boost of my career and other compliments to the sexual talk. If you saw the texts, you'd see this. I was prideful and arrogant to think I could handle someone like him. I was naive, and while I had been exposed to alpha male-types before, none had ever crossed a line like this- note even close. And remember, he didn't start with sexual or even mild flirting talk. He took his time with me, and looking back on it, he may have been somewhat intimidated by my position. His other AP's have all been regular staff, not management. This isn't me being prideful here, it's just a thought, based on his actions.

As far as it being a workplace issue, yes, I knew it was wrong and I hated it. So why continue, why risk my job, marriage, kids, etc? These are all questions that don't have some stock, perfect answer. For one, and this needs to be clear and I think my DH mentioned it as well, we were not talking every day. Not even every week. We would text for a couple of days, just a few texts, then nothing. I didn't text him at home or while with family. It was during after work before I left for home when almost all texts would take place. This gave me time to distance myself from it- get him out of my head. Yes, my arrogance thought I could keep him pacified so things would run smoothly at work, and not hurt my family, and yes, to continue getting the ego boost. Sickening to think of who and where I was. I felt dirty though, and used. I cried on the ride home many, many days. And instead of trying to attend my DH and help him through his depression, I put up a wall between us by continuing to engage this creep. This hurts in a way I hope you never feel, never know. It's like a death, to know how much I hurt my DH, and hurt us.

So yes, he stroked my ego. He gave me professional and personal affirmation, and yes, it was nice to get that from someone that (at the time) I respected and everyone else did too. It was a classic mid-life situation, if you will. Where would it have gone if he hadn't escalated things? Would I have crossed further into the affair? Would it have led to an 'I love you' or a full PA? Again, questions reserved more for IC and MC, but I know that even before him trying to kiss me I had already begun tapering things off, pushing back on the sex talk. You may not see it this way, but you weren't there. He rolled the dice because he knew he was losing the grip he had on me. God made a way out for me. I was praying hard again and getting back to His word near the end. It certainly helped as well.

Which brings me to this one last statement- I was raised in a Baptist family. My own household wasn't super strict, but my church was. Constantly preaching to the teens and young adults about music, drinking, and of course- sex. Sex was for procreating between married couples and that was that. My DH and I did have an active sex life, but it was pretty normal I suppose. Like most, after kids and during busy careers the intimacy tapered off. The last few years though have been much better, with last year into the first of this year before D-day being downright amazing. Trying new things, becoming closer than ever, and the frequency has been off the charts. As far as visiting the things from the affair with regards to the things we were saying and so forth, that's going to be between my DH and I, and our counseling, to see what we 'do' with all of that. We're in an amazing church now and have been since the end of the the affair. They support a strong, vibrant, and healthy sex life for couples. Our pastor had a battle with depression himself, and supports counseling all the way.

Anyway, that's all the time I have. I'm sure you and other's have more questions. I'll get here when I can, but again, I'll shut it down if it begins to impede our R process.


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## personofinterest

I just wanted to say hello and give you some support and let you know that I will be reading your thread carefully, supportively, and with interest. I'm glad your hubby is a good, solid man.

I'm sure he'll take good care of you when projection tries to take over.

I applaud your honesty


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

@MrsMM,

Your situation mirrors who my FWW was seduced. She had an affair with a coworker. She told me almost the same as you posted except hers went physical. I do not know what is worse an EA or a PA. I will be honest, Iam astounded there was no PA, as I know how common nurse-doctor hookups are having a friend whose wife had an affair with a surgeon about 10 years ago. I find it hard to believe it did not evolve into a PA. My wife’s AP was a skilled seducer and played her like a violin over the course of several months as POSDOC did you, right after her father passed a few years back. Like you she was raised in a strict religious environment, went to daily mass, and she succumbed to a weasel. She was vulnerable due to me suffering from what I learned was PTSD from my time in the Corps, similar to how your husbands depression likely affected him.Somewhere on TAM is the “F102 Cheaters script”. I would encourage you to find this and read it as it is a roadmap as to how a predator operates and uses a wedge technique to separate one from their spouse. For the record I am going on four years of R this Christmas Eve. My wife declared that was the best Christmas gift she could receive or will ever receive. She thanks me periodically for taking her back, and she definitely felt my pain, and was extremely remorseful.

You appear to be highly intelligent from your post and have a solid religious background, I am puzzled why you could not see what your husband saw, and know what this sorry excuse for a human being was up to. The good thing is you realize the pain you caused and what you put at risk. I feel for your husband and I know what crossed his mind while this was going on. I hope you realize how your actions almost destroyed him. I have felt many types of pain, it none of them compares to the pain infidelity causes.

It is good you are in IC and MC. My advice is take your time with each, however long it takes. Your husband while he may trust you to a degree, does not fully trust you yet. You are going to have to earn this back. This will not happen overnight. You will be lucky if it occurs within two years.

I wish you two the best, and you are brave to come on this board as some of the posters can be a tad over the top, as you already experienced.

Peace.


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## sokillme

MrsMM said:


> @sokillme
> 
> From reading DH's thread and browsing others, I suspected a lengthy response from you.
> 
> *Man I get a bad rap around here. *
> 
> I won't get into a big back and forth here either, but I will answer as best I can to this response. No time tackle all of this, but I will say the following- much of this has been talked about in my IC and our MC sessions. And yes, I've read that book already- twice.
> 
> Ego played a part, for certain. Note that I didn't say that I didn't like the attention, I just preferred the ego boost of my career and other compliments to the sexual talk. If you saw the texts, you'd see this. I was prideful and arrogant to think I could handle someone like him. I was naive, and while I had been exposed to alpha male-types before, none had ever crossed a line like this- note even close. And remember, he didn't start with sexual or even mild flirting talk. He took his time with me, and looking back on it, he may have been somewhat intimidated by my position. His other AP's have all been regular staff, not management. This isn't me being prideful here, it's just a thought, based on his actions.
> 
> *So I am curious as to where in your mind the texting crossed the line from colleagues to a texting affair, or do you see it as an affair? If he had never changed to the sexual talk do you think it would have been fine? I genuinely don't have an opinion on that. I am not one who thinks my wife can't have friendships with Men at work so I am not sure I would have a problem as I would expect my wife's boundaries to be strong enough to shut it down if it went any further. Which kind of seems like that is what you did. But you and your husband obviously see this as an affair and I am guessing because you didn't stop texting with him at the point where it got sexual? So were do you think it crossed the line? *
> 
> As far as it being a workplace issue, yes, I knew it was wrong and I hated it. So why continue, why risk my job, marriage, kids, etc? These are all questions that don't have some stock, perfect answer. For one, and this needs to be clear and I think my DH mentioned it as well, we were not talking every day. Not even every week. We would text for a couple of days, just a few texts, then nothing. I didn't text him at home or while with family. It was during after work before I left for home when almost all texts would take place. This gave me time to distance myself from it- get him out of my head. Yes, my arrogance thought I could keep him pacified so things would run smoothly at work, and not hurt my family, and yes, to continue getting the ego boost. Sickening to think of who and where I was. I felt dirty though, and used. I cried on the ride home many, many days. And instead of trying to attend my DH and help him through his depression, I put up a wall between us by continuing to engage this creep.
> *
> Why exactly were you crying? Did you feel like you couldn't shut it down because he might blackmail you or something. Or was it the fact that you were addicted and couldn't stop. That just doesn't seem clear. Like if you were at the point of crying why didn't you just tell him to stop texting you and block him? It's hard for me to believe someone as accomplished as you, put into such a important leadership role couldn't be assertive enough to shut it down.*
> 
> This hurts in a way I hope you never feel, never know. It's like a death, to know how much I hurt my DH, and hurt us.
> *
> Having been on the others side I doubt it could feel any worse then I did at the time. The difference is you had agency, those of us who were cheated got ours taken away. I DO agree with you that affairs are death. Death to the relationship you cheat on. Death of who you are, to the person you cheat on, and death to your own honor. For me the biggest death was that of my innocence. Both my wife and I have paid a price for that. It's unfortunate people sing songs and write books about how great they are. In many cases they are like rape in my mind. I don't think you situation escalated to anywhere near that level though. *
> 
> So yes, he stroked my ego. He gave me professional and personal affirmation, and yes, it was nice to get that from someone that (at the time) I respected and everyone else did too. It was a classic mid-life situation, if you will. Where would it have gone if he hadn't escalated things? Would I have crossed further into the affair? Would it have led to an 'I love you' or a full PA? Again, questions reserved more for IC and MC, but I know that even before him trying to kiss me I had already begun tapering things off, pushing back on the sex talk. You may not see it this way, but you weren't there. He rolled the dice because he knew he was losing the grip he had on me. God made a way out for me. I was praying hard again and getting back to His word near the end. It certainly helped as well.
> 
> *I think that is probably true. I am about to pound the Baptist Church in the next paragraph but God and your faith probably stopped you from going fully to the dark side. I also don't see you as a terrible person. People do bad things, none of us are immune. I think because most of the time I am down on R people thing I am down on forgiveness or second chances for WS and that is just not true. I believe in forgiveness and the chance to have a good life even after you have done harsh things (to a point though some cheaters are just evil). I just don't think R seems healthy lots of the times, I also think in some cases when there is long term serious abuse it's immoral for people to encourage others to stay in that situation. In the same way it would be immoral to encourage a women to stay with a husband who continues to beat her up or who put her in the hospital. *
> 
> Which brings me to this one last statement- I was raised in a Baptist family. My own household wasn't super strict, but my church was. Constantly preaching to the teens and young adults about music, drinking, and of course- sex. Sex was for procreating between married couples and that was that. My DH and I did have an active sex life, but it was pretty normal I suppose. Like most, after kids and during busy careers the intimacy tapered off. The last few years though have been much better, with last year into the first of this year before D-day being downright amazing. Trying new things, becoming closer than ever, and the frequency has been off the charts. As far as visiting the things from the affair with regards to the things we were saying and so forth, that's going to be between my DH and I, and our counseling, to see what we 'do' with all of that. We're in an amazing church now and have been since the end of the the affair. They support a strong, vibrant, and healthy sex life for couples. Our pastor had a battle with depression himself, and supports counseling all the way.
> 
> *Yeah from my one background I suspected as much. This is not a healthy way to look at sex but it's pretty typical from how I grew up as well. The difference is my parents told me that was crap. I think for lots of people who grew up that way it ends up working like kids who are only told the dangers of drinking but end up binge drinking with their first exposure to it. Drinking is fun. Sexual attention is fun. Even affairs are fun at least at first. I think that may be a surprise to folks who only hear how awful and evil they are. But sin for the most part feels great. It's the consequences that are bad.*
> 
> Anyway, that's all the time I have. I'm sure you and other's have more questions. I'll get here when I can, but again, I'll shut it down if it begins to impede our R process.


No matter what anyone thinks I have never tried to impede your R process.


----------



## sokillme

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> @MrsMM,
> 
> Your situation mirrors who my FWW was seduced. She had an affair with a coworker. She told me almost the same as you posted except hers went physical. I do not know what is worse an EA or a PA. I will be honest, Iam astounded there was no PA, as I know how common nurse-doctor hookups are having a friend whose wife had an affair with a surgeon about 10 years ago. I find it hard to believe it did not evolve into a PA. My wife’s AP was a skilled seducer and played her like a violin over the course of several months as POSDOC did you, right after her father passed a few years back. Like you she was raised in a strict religious environment, went to daily mass, and she succumbed to a weasel. She was vulnerable due to me suffering from what I learned was PTSD from my time in the Corps, similar to how your husbands depression likely affected him.Somewhere on TAM is the “F102 Cheaters script”. I would encourage you to find this and read it as it is a roadmap as to how a predator operates and uses a wedge technique to separate one from their spouse. For the record I am going on four years of R this Christmas Eve. My wife declared that was the best Christmas gift she could receive or will ever receive. She thanks me periodically for taking her back, and she definitely felt my pain, and was extremely remorseful.
> 
> You appear to be highly intelligent from your post and have a solid religious background, I am puzzled why you could not see what your husband saw, and know what this sorry excuse for a human being was up to. The good thing is you realize the pain you caused and what you put at risk. I feel for your husband and I know what crossed his mind while this was going on. I hope you realize how your actions almost destroyed him. I have felt many types of pain, it none of them compares to the pain infidelity causes.
> 
> It is good you are in IC and MC. My advice is take your time with each, however long it takes. Your husband while he may trust you to a degree, does not fully trust you yet. You are going to have to earn this back. This will not happen overnight. You will be lucky if it occurs within two years.
> 
> I wish you two the best, and you are brave to come on this board as some of the posters can be a tad over the top, as you already experienced.
> 
> Peace.


See I get a hard time but this post seems harder on her then mine was? > And man I wish you would stop blaming yourself even indirectly. It hurts my heart to read that.


----------



## Music_Man

@No Longer Lonely Husband

Thanks for chiming in. Not sure when W will be back here. She's swamped right now with all sorts of things. I think she's put quite a bit out there in her posts from last night and this AM though- most here will get the picture. She has more to tell at some point I'm sure.

Like you, I found it hard to believe that it didn't go further. The texts really saved the day. The poly without the texts would've still left doubt. We haven't disclosed all of the texts here, but there is ample evidence that he got turned down multiple times and then he lost his **** over it. 

If anything, I sincerely hope our story shows that while there can be a "Cheating 101" sort of set of rules and that while many tendencies appear in almost all affairs, affairs themselves are still had by people- and people are all different. Circumstances are also different. It's not one size fits all.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

sokillme said:


> See I get a hard time but this post seems harder on her then mine was? > And man I wish you would stop blaming yourself even indirectly. It hurts my heart to read that.


I by no means accept any of the blame. THe infidelity is all on my wife. This was clearly explained to me in my first one on one with my MC, and I accepted this.


----------



## BluesPower

MrsMM said:


> [MENTION=250561]I cried on the ride home many, many days. And instead of trying to attend my DH and help him through his depression, I put up a wall between us by continuing to engage this creep. This hurts in a way I hope you never feel, never know. It's like a death, to know how much I hurt my DH, and hurt us.


So first I want to welcome you here. I like that you are willing to tell your story. 

Like many here, it was hard to believe that you did not have a physical affair in this situation, but you passed a Poly I think, so as close as you got, kudos for not going further... 

So the only thing that I want to caution you about is this type of statement above. I know that you mean well, and I get that you feel horrible about hurting your husband. 

But the thing that EVERY wayward (male or female) does not understand and never can understand is how much they hurt the other person. 

Granted if you had had a physical affair, it would have been far worse, but I am here to tell you that even with the talking that you guys have been doing and the therapy and all of it... You just don't know how much you hurt him. 

Frankly, most men are really unable to put the hurt into words.

I don't say any of this to hurt your feelings, but just to say... Don't have the mindset that the above statement suggests... 

Yes I get that you feel bad for hurting him, which is how you should feel, but don't presume to really understand how much you hurt him. Over a long, long period of time you may get close, but it will never be a true understanding... 

But carry on... Glad you are here...


----------



## sokillme

BluesPower said:


> So first I want to welcome you here. I like that you are willing to tell your story.
> 
> Like many here, it was hard to believe that you did not have a physical affair in this situation, but you passed a Poly I think, so as close as you got, kudos for not going further...
> 
> So the only thing that I want to caution you about is this type of statement above. I know that you mean well, and I get that you feel horrible about hurting your husband.
> 
> But the thing that EVERY wayward (male or female) does not understand and never can understand is how much they hurt the other person.
> 
> Granted if you had had a physical affair, it would have been far worse, but I am here to tell you that even with the talking that you guys have been doing and the therapy and all of it... You just don't know how much you hurt him.
> 
> Frankly, most men are really unable to put the hurt into words.
> 
> I don't say any of this to hurt your feelings, but just to say... Don't have the mindset that the above statement suggests...
> 
> Yes I get that you feel bad for hurting him, which is how you should feel, but don't presume to really understand how much you hurt him. Over a long, long period of time you may get close, but it will never be a true understanding...
> 
> But carry on... Glad you are here...


Agreed, I actually had an out of body experience when I found out. This is the only time this happened to me. I have some really bad **** happen to me, life threatening, but nothing has been worse.


----------



## sokillme

Music_Man said:


> @No Longer Lonely Husband
> 
> Thanks for chiming in. Not sure when W will be back here. She's swamped right now with all sorts of things. I think she's put quite a bit out there in her posts from last night and this AM though- most here will get the picture. She has more to tell at some point I'm sure.
> 
> Like you, I found it hard to believe that it didn't go further. The texts really saved the day. The poly without the texts would've still left doubt. We haven't disclosed all of the texts here, but there is ample evidence that he got turned down multiple times and then he lost his **** over it.
> 
> If anything, I sincerely hope our story shows that while there can be a "Cheating 101" sort of set of rules and that while many tendencies appear in almost all affairs, affairs themselves are still had by people- and people are all different. Circumstances are also different. It's not one size fits all.


This seems like a pretty standard work place affair. Follows all the patterns, work relationship, becomes intimate friendship, becomes affair. It's just that she regained here sense before it went physical, and she became passive.


----------



## StillSearching

sokillme said:


> This seems like a pretty standard work place affair. Follows all the patterns, work relationship, becomes intimate friendship, becomes affair. It's just that she regained here sense before it went physical, and she became passive.


Well, at least you believe more than I do about it.


----------



## Music_Man

sokillme said:


> Agreed, I actually had an out of body experience when I found out. This is the only time this happened to me. I have some really bad **** happen to me, life threatening, but nothing has been worse.


I don't know what you went through, but I felt the same way. I lost both parents to a car accident at a young age, and this was worse for me. Some will scoff at that notion, as there have been far far worse affairs in these forums, but it's true. The pain isn't something I'd wish on anyone.


----------



## Openminded

Welcome. Thanks for joining. 

Women are often unsuspecting about the possible intentions of "friendly" men (especially when they play the game as well in the beginning as your AP did) until alarm bells start going off. Thankfully this didn't end the way many of those "friendships" do. Now you have a chance to rebuild and create a stronger marriage. 

(I usually stay away from R threads because they're a major trigger but I wish both of you peace and happiness.)


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## Affaircare

MrsMM said:


> I cried on the ride home many, many days. And instead of trying to attend my DH and help him through his depression, I put up a wall between us by continuing to engage this creep. This hurts in a way I hope you never feel, never know. It's like a death, to know how much I hurt my DH, and hurt us.



Hi @MrsMM, 

I'm glad you're here and I'm glad R is continuing between you and @Music_Man. Just by way of introducing myself, I have been married three times: 1) married young, he was abusive and bipolar, he cheated, we divorced.; 2) married better, lost a baby and found out we'd never be able to have children, l was unfaithful, he had heart failure, he passed two years ago; and 3) just married on Memorial Day weekend. I include this brief introduction so that you know that I've been in your shoes and for me, too, it wasn't like I woke up and thought "Oh I think I'll have an affair today" but rather it was like death by a thousand papercuts. So I believe I have compassion for how it happened and how it feels to be so ashamed of your own self. 

However, as people have previously mentioned, I want you to know that the quote above is actually inaccurate. Yes, I do suspect that you honestly hope and pray that people do not know the pain and hurt of being an unfaithful spouse. I get that...it is deeply agonizing and bitter. Yet as I mentioned in my introduction, in my first marriage, my exH cheated on me, and I can say without a doubt there is no greater pain on the planet than knowing that your spouse committed adultery. I've lost a spouse. I've been unfaithful. I've lost a baby at 20 weeks. These were all extremely sorrowful and distressing. Yet just so you know, the trauma of knowing your spouse cheated was the most excruciating pain I've ever known. It doesn't compare. 

Now, I'm not here to say "who's pain is worse" because let's be honest--in the instance of a marriage that is trying to TRULY recover after infidelity, both parties are in a ton of pain! I KNOW that you hurt, and I am just as convinced that @Music_Man hurts. So my goal here isn't to minimize your pain or aggrandize his...rather my goal is to fully inform you. 

In your instance--in OUR instance as disloyal spouses--we were the pilots flying over the city pressing the button that dropped the bomb. We devasted buildings, homes, villages and killed civilians and military alike. What was a family's home is now a pile of demolished dust because of the buttom we pushed. But we got up that morning and put on the uniform. We got into the plane. We flew over the village. We knew what we were doing and we did it anyway...and felt guilty for what we did. 

In the instance of the loyal spouse--they were living in the little clay house, going about their normal life, when a bomb fell out of nowhere and reduced all they loved to dust. Now, maybe prior to the bomb-drop they were not that enamored with the house or the people in the house. Maybe they even wanted to build a new house or redecorate or whatever--there may have been some problems with the house that needed attending--but all of that moot now! The house is less than rubble...everyone inside is dead...and they themselves are mortally wounded. 

So I'm just letting you know--I get your sentiment and that you sincerely would not wish this upon your worst enemy. Still, thinking like that is not going to garner a lot of sympathy, only because you're hoping we'll be sad for the pilot who pushed a button rather than sorrowing for all those who died in the blast radius. In fact, I am sorry for the pilot and I'm sure it is a hard burden of guilt to carry, but before I shed a tear for the pilot, I'll be running in to the wounded and dying to see if any of them can be tended to. See what I mean?

Final thought: It seems to me that you've given this some honest thought and faced it pretty squarely, including looking at yourself and where you went wrong. I think that's very encouraging and would strongly encourage you to continue being that courageous and that honest. In the end, that will be what saves you--honestly looking at your own self.


----------



## personofinterest

Mrs Music, it sounds like you have and are really doing a lot of soul searching and introspection. Those are very good things.

One thing to remember: guilt and remorse are good things. They help us to examine ourselves and make amends.

Toxic shame, however, never helps US, nor does it ever help those who love us if they are healthy. It seems like your husband is healthy.

If at any time any action you take here on this forum begins to pull you into a spiral of "I am unredeemable" shame, don't be afraid to step back. Taking care of you and your marriage comes first. And while there may be some unhealthy out there who feel they would like a crippled spouse, I don't think your husband is one of them. He has the character of a man who wants a whole woman, even if she made bad choices.

Just because you cheated does not mean you have no right to stand up for yourself.

And no, unless you have been cheated on, you cannot "know" the exact pain. But part of empathy is trying to relate others' pain to your own so that you can try to climb inside their skin and at least approximate how they must be feelings. Because I tried NOT to read your post through the lens of someone who has not recovered from being cheated on (and I have been cheated on), I took your words to mean that you knew your husband was in immense pain, not that you were an expert on his exact pain.

Nit picking is often the habit of those who need to be right.


----------



## MrsMM

personofinterest said:


> And no, unless you have been cheated on, you cannot "know" the exact pain. But part of empathy is trying to relate others' pain to your own so that you can try to climb inside their skin and at least approximate how they must be feelings. Because I tried NOT to read your post through the lens of someone who has not recovered from being cheated on (and I have been cheated on), I took your words to mean that you knew your husband was in immense pain, not that you were an expert on his exact pain.
> 
> Nit picking is often the habit of those who need to be right.


You might be the only person who took what I said the way that I meant it. Sorry all, I don't quite have a way with words the way my DH does. I should have added "the pain that I see in his eyes is unbearable, especially when I know that I'm the one who caused it". I wasn't trying to compare pain, at all, so please don't think that.

I also think that others think they can sort of "crack the code" on cheating if I can somehow explain exactly why I did what I did, and why I didn't just stop it if I was becoming so uncomfortable with it. There's just not a single, simple answer, and nothing I say will excuse what I did.

For the crying part, there are several reasons. I cried so much during the last couple of months over guilt and shame as much as anything. I came to the stark realization that he was never interested in my career or me as a person or anything else at all. He wanted one thing and I had been so so blind to it. And I was partly blind to it because I didn't want to see the truth. I didn't want my DH to be right about him. My DH told me very early on, way before we were even texting much as friends, that he was only being friendly to get in my pants. I just couldn't believe that, and I was actually angry that he would even suggest it. My DH has a sixth sense when it comes to people, but I refused to believe it. And when it happened, it was devastating. Betrayal on top of betrayal is how I saw it. I couldn't believe what I had let happen. I also cried for being careless with not only my career but with my profession as well. And yes, I cried that I had allowed another man to say such vile things to me, and even join in at times. I cried over my sins and how I felt isolated from God, from friends. I felt that I wasn't worthy of talking to my friends who were faithful and honest. I felt like a fraud. 

Then why not stop it sooner? Pride, arrogance, stupidity, fear, you name it. I felt trapped yet I had control. A simple 'don't text me anymore' and blocking his number would've done it. Too simple though, I suppose. I had to 'figure it out'. But there are several reasons, none of them good, but reasons nonetheless. One is that- and this is not to minimize things AT ALL- again, we didn't text every day. I think the days and sometimes weeks between texting helped me to have sort of a small recovery (talked about this in IC). I could get him out of my head, and since I was deleting texts, it really was out of sight out of mind for a short period. Another reason is that I was simply hoping he would be nice to me again, like in the beginning. I thought if I could steer the conversation away from sex that he could just be a friend again and our work relationship wouldn't suffer. Again, pride and arrogance to think that I could sway this creep. I had seen him angry at other people, and I did not want to be on the other end of one of his explosions, so I'm sure that was a factor in some way.

I stopped it from my end once he started trying to take it to the next level. He tried, in between asking me to meet him somewhere, to initiate the sex talk again. But at this point, I was done. I saw him for who he was and what he truly wanted all along. He asked once more in a final sort of way, then told me it was over. He followed up by calling me a tease and a waste of his time. I felt lower than pond scum. Not only had I fallen for his plan and betrayed my DH, but now I had to face him at work 2 days per week. It was horrible. He turned into a monster. I felt like I had let so many people down, including my team. I knew I had to leave, I had to get away from him. Hours were being cut, and I was working a day or 2 per week at another facility. I went down the hall, cried my eyes out and prayed like I had never prayed before. The next day, the other place I had been working offered me a full time job and I jumped at it. God's timing worked for us, and set the tone for our future. 

Whew! I've said a lot, maybe too much. Triggers galore. I said a lot here today because I may not be around much over the next few weeks. I'll be back at some point. I hope those that have had questions have gotten their answers. I'll be back at some point to touch on the years in between the end and D-day.

Edited to say- not looking for sympathy either. I know what I did, and I take full responsibility.


----------



## samyeagar

One common thing I have noticed across many of these stories is how spouses who notice something isn't quite right, and let their uneasiness be known, only to be seen as an adversary.

Why didn't you want your husband to be right about the doctor? The doctor was just some guy you interacted with on an infrequent basis in a professional setting, so what did it really matter if he was? Why didn't you believe or trust your husband that there was something amiss? Don't you trust that your husband is actually looking out for you and the best interests of your relationship?


----------



## personofinterest

Mrs M, I know that there were times in my first marriage that I felt.....invisible. And sometimes, because my husband had trouble keeping a job, I felt...guilty? for my success. And when we had conflict, most of the time I just ended up backing off or apologizing to make it peaceful or okay again. It's hard to explain. I do think a lot of women do this, and it is NOT because "men are mean." We communicate differently. What he truly saw as logic and help, I felt as dismissal or control. I got into this pattern of feeling dismissed and invisible and emotionally drained and "not right" most of the time. I am not even saying that my perception was accurate. It just was.

So I know there were times that, looking back, my ex was right about a few things, and I just....couldn't see it and didn't see it because I just didn't want to be wrong "again." I didn't want to be stupid "again." It is entirely possible that some of these times MY feelings were all me and not about him or what he was doing. But it still felt real. If I was wrong about X, that meant I was stupid and a fool and less....worthy?

Like I said, it is hard to explain. Could it be that while a man might see it in a linear way: "she didn't listen to me about dude = she doesn't trust me = I am not important"

But for a woman who has these feelings of being less or wrong already....for some reason one thing or another becomes the great hill of denial to die on.

I know for a couple of years my ex told me I was too absorbed in my job. I told him he was wrong. Honestly, he was right. But my job was the one place I felt competent and the one place I regularly heard I was competent. That isn't a slam against him. It was just how it was. So for me, if he was right, it was taking away something I needed at the time - to feel valuable and good enough.

So whiole it might make sense to a man, to say you didn't listen because you don't trust your husband is so amazingly and predictably simplistic.

Does any of this resonate?


----------



## samyeagar

personofinterest said:


> Mrs M, I know that there were times in my first marriage that I felt.....invisible. And sometimes, because my husband had trouble keeping a job, I felt...guilty? for my success. And when we had conflict, most of the time I just ended up backing off or apologizing to make it peaceful or okay again. It's hard to explain. I do think a lot of women do this, and it is NOT because "men are mean." We communicate differently. What he truly saw as logic and help, I felt as dismissal or control. I got into this pattern of feeling dismissed and invisible and emotionally drained and "not right" most of the time. I am not even saying that my perception was accurate. It just was.
> 
> So I know there were times that, looking back, my ex was right about a few things, and I just....couldn't see it and didn't see it because I just didn't want to be wrong "again." I didn't want to be stupid "again." It is entirely possible that some of these times MY feelings were all me and not about him or what he was doing. But it still felt real. If I was wrong about X, that meant I was stupid and a fool and less....worthy?
> 
> Like I said, it is hard to explain. Could it be that while a man might see it in a linear way: "she didn't listen to me about dude = she doesn't trust me = I am not important"
> 
> But for a woman who has these feelings of being less or wrong already....for some reason one thing or another becomes the great hill of denial to die on.
> 
> I know for a couple of years my ex told me I was too absorbed in my job. I told him he was wrong. Honestly, he was right. But my job was the one place I felt competent and the one place I regularly heard I was competent. That isn't a slam against him. It was just how it was. So for me, if he was right, it was taking away something I needed at the time - to feel valuable and good enough.
> 
> So whiole it might make sense to a man, to say you didn't listen because you don't trust your husband is so amazingly and predictably simplistic.
> 
> Does any of this resonate?


Perhaps "not trusting" was poor wording on my part. Let me try and explain it from my own perspective. It is almost reflex on my part that if it is potentially something big and my wife tells me something makes her uncomfortable, or she doesn't trust someone, what ever it is is stopped immediately because I "trust" her judgement and feelings implicitly. My feelings and reactions stem from my belief that she has mine and our relationships best interest first and foremost. If she is uncomfortable, why do I need any more reason than that?


----------



## Music_Man

samyeagar said:


> One common thing I have noticed across many of these stories is how spouses who notice something isn't quite right, and let their uneasiness be known, only to be seen as an adversary.
> 
> Why didn't you want your husband to be right about the doctor? The doctor was just some guy you interacted with on an infrequent basis in a professional setting, so what did it really matter if he was? Why didn't you believe or trust your husband that there was something amiss? Don't you trust that your husband is actually looking out for you and the best interests of your relationship?


I'll chime in here, as I'm not sure when or even if W will be back anytime soon, and this was a major point of contention for me. I won't rehash our MC sessions here in public, but I can tell you this is one of the hardest things I've had to reconcile- why she wouldn't listen to me, and then ended up nearly destroying us over someone I had identified as a potential problem. That's a tough pill to swallow, any way you look at it. 

Short answer? Pride. She thought if I could tell this guy was a jerk, why couldn't she? She didn't detect anything, and she would know if he had designs on her, right? I mean, after all, I wasn't around him enough to really 'know' him. 

Which, makes perfect sense if you're in her shoes. He had done nothing to prove me right to this point, nor for months after. 

For a better explanation, read the reply from @personofinterest Lot of similarities with regards to how my W saw this.


----------



## MattMatt

Sometimes the "right" person is ignored.

I was asked my opinion about something at work and everyone ignored me. In such a way as I felt snubbed.

Eventually the negative result which I warned them about came to fruition. And everyone said: "Why didn't anyone tell us this might happen?"

Before I could say anything a female colleague said: "That's funny. Because I distinctly remember Matt offering his opinion and we chose to ignore him, so don't say nobody told you!"


----------



## BluesPower

Music_Man said:


> I'll chime in here, as I'm not sure when or even if W will be back anytime soon, and this was a major point of contention for me. I won't rehash our MC sessions here in public, but I can tell you this is one of the hardest things I've had to reconcile- why she wouldn't listen to me, and then ended up nearly destroying us over someone I had identified as a potential problem. That's a tough pill to swallow, any way you look at it.
> 
> Short answer? Pride. She thought if I could tell this guy was a jerk, why couldn't she? She didn't detect anything, and she would know if he had designs on her, right? I mean, after all, I wasn't around him enough to really 'know' him.
> 
> Which, makes perfect sense if you're in her shoes. He had done nothing to prove me right to this point, nor for months after.
> 
> For a better explanation, read the reply from @personofinterest Lot of similarities with regards to how my W saw this.


Not really related... But what @personofinterest said, and your wife's issue and you feeling of not being listened too, they are related... but how... 

Me and GF have the same issue, and for the life of me I don't know why. She will ask a question, I answer it, she then googles the question, and is surprised when I am correct EVERY SINGLE TIME. 

If this has happened once it has happened a 1000 times... Never once was I controlling, never once did I call her stupid for not knowing the answer, none of that. I just remember some things. Not everything either just some stuff I retain. 

And I am the same way with people, I have the 6th sense. And I am always right, ever single time. If I don't like someone, there is a reason, so I listen to my 6th sense...

But you ask me a question, and then don't trust the answer even though I am right ever single time... 

WTF is up with that... What is that about?

I just don't get it...


----------



## SadSamIAm

I think it is pretty typical for couples to have this type of discussion. Spouse warns other spouse about someone that they don't trust. The other spouse writes it off as they are being jealous. Or they write it off as they don't understand the relationship. I am sure there are many times where the spouse warning was correct and many times when they weren't. 

So I wouldn't blame your wife for not listening to your warning.


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## samyeagar

Music_Man said:


> I'll chime in here, as I'm not sure when or even if W will be back anytime soon, and this was a major point of contention for me. I won't rehash our MC sessions here in public, but I can tell you this is one of the hardest things I've had to reconcile- why she wouldn't listen to me, and then ended up nearly destroying us over someone I had identified as a potential problem. That's a tough pill to swallow, any way you look at it.
> 
> Short answer? Pride. She thought if I could tell this guy was a jerk, why couldn't she? She didn't detect anything, and she would know if he had designs on her, right? I mean, after all, I wasn't around him enough to really 'know' him.
> 
> Which, makes perfect sense if you're in her shoes. He had done nothing to prove me right to this point, nor for months after.
> 
> For a better explanation, read the reply from @personofinterest Lot of similarities with regards to how my W saw this.


Pride goeth before the fall...

I think there is also an element of defensiveness and stubbornness, and a deep seated desire to be right, which on a subconscious level can lead people to take actions to prove themselves right, even when there is absolutely nothing to be gained.


----------



## samyeagar

SadSamIAm said:


> I think it is pretty typical for couples to have this type of discussion. Spouse warns other spouse about someone that they don't trust. The other spouse writes it off as they are being jealous. Or they write it off as they don't understand the relationship. I am sure there are many times where the spouse warning was correct and many times when they weren't.
> 
> So I wouldn't blame your wife for not listening to your warning.


So in other words, one spouse is rationalizing away the concerns of the other spouse. A classic, yet subtle example of "It's either me or him" and she chooses him.


----------



## Music_Man

samyeagar said:


> Pride goeth before the fall...
> 
> 
> 
> I think there is also an element of defensiveness and stubbornness, and a deep seated desire to be right, which on a subconscious level can lead people to take actions to prove themselves right, even when there is absolutely nothing to be gained.


Well said.


----------



## personofinterest

The need to be right isn't just limited to in Fidelity or wayward spouses. I think sometimes in our subconscious desire to be right, coupled with the fact that maybe our own situations didn't go so well, we can be guilty of sabotage.


----------



## samyeagar

personofinterest said:


> The need to be right isn't just limited to in Fidelity or wayward spouses. I think sometimes in our subconscious desire to be right, coupled with the fact that maybe our own situations didn't go so well, we can be guilty of sabotage.


Oh, no doubt, not just infidelity, but not many things have as serious of consequences if you are wrong. If my wife were to possibly see something that I may have possibly missed, I am going to err on the side of my wife. The possible consequences just aren't worth the risk to me.


----------



## sokillme

Music_Man said:


> I don't know what you went through, but I felt the same way. I lost both parents to a car accident at a young age, and this was worse for me. Some will scoff at that notion, as there have been far far worse affairs in these forums, but it's true. The pain isn't something I'd wish on anyone.


Well I am sure you are not surprised I have some thoughts on this. 

I think part of it is the sense of loss of control, it is almost like if you have ever been robbed. There is a sudden realization that your stuff is not safe, not really. The same holds true for this it's the loss of perceived agency in your life, I say perceived though because the truth is when you give your life to someone you really give up a great deal of your agency. You never really had that agency to begin with at that point you just were not acutely aware as you are now. But I think once you get that you can learn to live with that fact. Besides you don't just get robbed you get robbed by the person you trust the most so it's a double whammy. 

Then there is the loss of innocence, and everyone who gets cheated on understands this, it's why we say it changes you. That is what changes. It's the rare person who doesn't experience this at least once in life. It just unfortunately for some it happens after a great amount of investment. So I think for most people, and at least for me one of the ways I was able assure my safety is that I was never as emotionally vulnerable after being cheated on as I was before. In the back of my mind I am aware that my wife could cheat and my marriage would be over tomorrow. (For me personally I have never heard a story where there was full on cheating that I would want that marriage after the fact. It just holds no appeal for me, and there are many reasons why. Valuing safety in my personal space being paramount.) So because I am aware of that I don't love with the same kind of abandon that I did before. I have heard it said and I believe as well that that is not necessarily a good way to love anyway. Life isn't fairy tails and everything in this life ends anyway. Even the best marriages end at some point. 

I get there is insecurity as well that is brought on by this, but I didn't suffer from that as much. (Probably lots of people on here are not surprised. :laugh I think this is because I always judged my value by my character and not my sex count, or attractiveness or so forth. I always felt like I did the best I could and I understood in life that sometimes you can do your best and still lose. I also knew my worth and knew it was her loss. She also seemed to want me still in her own messed up way so that helped. But even still, I was confident my chance for love was over at that point. I was convinced of that, I felt like it took me so long to find this one maybe that was my only chance. But it took me long at the time because I was young and not confident enough about other stuff to project confidence. Once I got that in check I never again had trouble finding dates. One thing that did bug me was how did I miss the signs. But if I am honest I did see them I just was willing at the time to overlook them or not confront them. Today I wouldn't not even have bother to get so close to the person who cheated on me, she would be uninteresting partly because of the red flags. But I was young and dumb. I feel like you saw the signs too and warned your wife about them. 

Finally though I think there is a morning that comes from this. What you are really morning is the person you thought you had. I know at the time you could have told me the earth was going to blow up in 24 hours and I would have easily believed that before I would believe that this women would cheat on me. We were in the throws of deep love at least I thought we were. So It was morning this love I had. I actually think that is a great big part of the sorrow. I think it's a very rare WS who understands this. There is a deep disillusionment that an affair casts on a person who cheats, and on that relationship. And when you were used to seeing your relationship as a point of security and pride, all of a sudden seeing that your SO treated it as worthless changes your perspective greatly. Also if you are like me, seeing your partner acting in a way that you have no respect for, causes you to lose respect. The bond is broken and there is great sadness in that because you valued that bond. Again I am not really sure a lot of WS have any feelings of a bond at all. Which is why it's a waste to try to hold onto that when they didn't even believe in it in the first place. 

I do think that respect can be regained with hard work. But you still have to go through the morning process. The best thing you can take out of all of this though is to realize that once you get through this, and you will, if you can get through this you can get through anything. I am a much harder person because of what happened, and that has served me well through some other tragic things that have happened in my life. Most of it is just time.


----------



## MattMatt

But @MrsMM knows all about Doctors and related medical stuff not her husbands area of expertise, see?

Oh! But it was his area of expertise!

She saw this:










But @Music_Man saw this:-










Why the difference perception?

Because Music_Man knew something that MrsMM had never seen and did not know. Music_Man knew how attractive MrsMM is. He saw her how Doctor Dirty saw her. As an attractive woman.


----------



## sokillme

Music_Man said:


> Well said.


To some extent I agree but it depends what kind of relationship you have. Some marriages are contentious where there is tension when this kind of stuff comes up. But it doesn't seem like your MO is to always warn her against other men being snakes. It also doesn't seem like she doesn't value your opinion. 

Which is why I think you both need to be open to the fact that on some level she knew but enjoyed it enough to continue anyway. The thought being I can just dip my toe in here and no one will get hurt. I think it just got away from her. After all it's nice to have someone who again on your job is well respected, pay attention to you. That is the thing with relationships and boundaries they need to be in place when things seem harmless, to avoid having to test them when things get hard. 

I get this thought is more painful but it seems more reasonable as well. You also can't say that she hasn't been shown to be willing to push boundaries for good feelings. I mean she pretty much showed she was willing to do that. What I am trying to say here is I think the boundary pushing was happening a lot early in this process then maybe you or even she realizes, or wants to admit even to herself. And it's important to be aware of it so it doesn't happen again.


----------



## Music_Man

@MattMatt

Hammer, meet nail. EXACTLY right. He saw what I saw. 

As I told my W, when they announced these two new doctors and they came in for that first meeting, I'm quite certain POSOM was looking at the 'talent'. When he was introduced to Mrs. MM, I'm betting he could barely contain his smile. 

He wouldn't even have to roam the halls or hangout elsewhere- one of the best looking employees in the hospital would be right there in front of him. What a prick.


----------



## Music_Man

BluesPower said:


> Not really related... But what @personofinterest said, and your wife's issue and you feeling of not being listened too, they are related... but how...
> 
> 
> 
> Me and GF have the same issue, and for the life of me I don't know why. She will ask a question, I answer it, she then googles the question, and is surprised when I am correct EVERY SINGLE TIME.
> 
> 
> 
> If this has happened once it has happened a 1000 times... Never once was I controlling, never once did I call her stupid for not knowing the answer, none of that. I just remember some things. Not everything either just some stuff I retain.
> 
> 
> 
> And I am the same way with people, I have the 6th sense. And I am always right, ever single time. If I don't like someone, there is a reason, so I listen to my 6th sense...
> 
> 
> 
> But you ask me a question, and then don't trust the answer even though I am right ever single time...
> 
> 
> 
> WTF is up with that... What is that about?
> 
> 
> 
> I just don't get it...


If I had a bonafide 100% accurate answer to this, I'd probably be playing my guitar instead of posting here. 

One of life's great mysteries, but we're doing a pretty good job of breaking it down.


----------



## farsidejunky

BluesPower said:


> Not really related... But what @personofinterest said, and your wife's issue and you feeling of not being listened too, they are related... but how...
> 
> 
> 
> Me and GF have the same issue, and for the life of me I don't know why. She will ask a question, I answer it, she then googles the question, and is surprised when I am correct EVERY SINGLE TIME.
> 
> 
> 
> If this has happened once it has happened a 1000 times... Never once was I controlling, never once did I call her stupid for not knowing the answer, none of that. I just remember some things. Not everything either just some stuff I retain.
> 
> 
> 
> And I am the same way with people, I have the 6th sense. And I am always right, ever single time. If I don't like someone, there is a reason, so I listen to my 6th sense...
> 
> 
> 
> But you ask me a question, and then don't trust the answer even though I am right ever single time...
> 
> 
> 
> WTF is up with that... What is that about?
> 
> 
> 
> I just don't get it...


Oftentimes it is people projecting their internal dialogue on the what you have told them, which is often the opposite of what you actually said.

I can't count how many times I have had conversations with my wife where she discerned something completely different than I communicated. In these instances, it almost always had to do with something connected to ego or a lack of self-esteem.

No external voice can compete with somebody's internal dialogue, especially when the internal dialogue is negative.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

samyeagar said:


> Pride goeth before the fall...
> 
> 
> 
> I think there is also an element of defensiveness and stubbornness, and a deep seated desire to be right, which on a subconscious level can lead people to take actions to prove themselves right, even when there is absolutely nothing to be gained.


This. 

The ego of one with low self-esteem. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## MattMatt

farsidejunky said:


> This.
> 
> The ego of one with low self-esteem.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Oh, this was one of the key things with what happened to me. I knew I was safe from an affair. Well, who would want me, right? 

And then we were off to the races!


----------



## personofinterest

farsidejunky said:


> BluesPower said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not really related... But what @personofinterest said, and your wife's issue and you feeling of not being listened too, they are related... but how...
> 
> 
> 
> Me and GF have the same issue, and for the life of me I don't know why. She will ask a question, I answer it, she then googles the question, and is surprised when I am correct EVERY SINGLE TIME.
> 
> 
> 
> If this has happened once it has happened a 1000 times... Never once was I controlling, never once did I call her stupid for not knowing the answer, none of that. I just remember some things. Not everything either just some stuff I retain.
> 
> 
> 
> And I am the same way with people, I have the 6th sense. And I am always right, ever single time. If I don't like someone, there is a reason, so I listen to my 6th sense...
> 
> 
> 
> But you ask me a question, and then don't trust the answer even though I am right ever single time...
> 
> 
> 
> WTF is up with that... What is that about?
> 
> 
> 
> I just don't get it...
> 
> 
> 
> Oftentimes it is people projecting their internal dialogue on the what you have told them, which is often the opposite of what you actually said.
> 
> I can't count how many times I have had conversations with my wife where she discerned something completely different than I communicated. In these instances, it almost always had to do with something connected to ego or a lack of self-esteem.
> 
> No external voice can compete with somebody's internal dialogue, especially when the internal dialogue is negative.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

This

I had so many negative tapes in my head. For much of my life, I just accepted them.

Then I stopped, and the pendulum sadly swung way over in the stubborn direction.


----------



## farsidejunky

personofinterest said:


> This
> 
> I had so many negative tapes in my head. For much of my life, I just accepted them.
> 
> Then I stopped, and the pendulum sadly swung way over in the stubborn direction.


And then the major problem is not what somebody said, but what you were absolutely convinced they meant.

In other words, you completely bypassed the literal definition of their words and went straight to 'knowing' their intentions.

My wife still periodically does this. And despite it driving her insane, my normal response to this is:

"I can't compete with your internal dialogue."

Then I walk away.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## personofinterest

farsidejunky said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> This
> 
> I had so many negative tapes in my head. For much of my life, I just accepted them.
> 
> Then I stopped, and the pendulum sadly swung way over in the stubborn direction.
> 
> 
> 
> And then the major problem is not what somebody said, but what you were absolutely convinced they meant.
> 
> In other words, you completely bypassed the literal definition of their words and went straight to 'knowing' their intentions.
> 
> My wife still periodically does this. And despite it driving her insane, my normal response to this is:
> 
> "I can't compete with your internal dialogue."
> 
> Then I walk away.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

 It was a little more complicated than that for me because my ex husband did actually have some of the same tendencies as the people who put the tapes they are to begin with. And instead of trying to work with me as the person he promised to love to resolve these things, he mocked me. He laughed at me. He told me I was stupid for thinking that way. When I wanted to talk about it to get to the bottom of it he walked away, but when he wanted to talk, he would follow me around the house and even wake me up out of a dead sleep. So yes, I had issues. But so did he.


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## personofinterest

Look, it's easy to beat the Dead Horse of proving that a wayward spouse was wrong. I mean, duh, Big revelation lol. But if a couple is determined to successfully reconcile, then part of that is not clinging to it like grim death and feeding and festering bitterness. I am convinced there are people who are so upset about their own lives that 1 of their conscious or unconscious goals is to make sure they sabotage as many other recoveries as possible.


----------



## Music_Man

personofinterest said:


> Look, it's easy to beat the Dead Horse of proving that a wayward spouse was wrong. I mean, duh, Big revelation lol. But if a couple is determined to successfully reconcile, then part of that is not clinging to it like grim death and feeding and festering bitterness. I am convinced there are people who are so upset about their own lives that 1 of their conscious or unconscious goals is to make sure they sabotage as many other recoveries as possible.


This hits home. W and I both know what happened and how we got here. It's okay and even healthy to remember the mistakes and the issues that led us here- and to remember the lessons learned, but to sit and wallow in it 24/7 and let it fester into bitterness is NOT healthy and not the way to recovery. 

There are folks in these very forums, unfortunately, that do want to see folks end up reconciling or even happy, because they themselves never recovered and are not happy. Some of them are crafty and subtle with their conversations, but most intelligent folks can see through it.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Music_Man said:


> I'll chime in here, as I'm not sure when or even if W will be back anytime soon, and this was a major point of contention for me. I won't rehash our MC sessions here in public, but I can tell you this is one of the hardest things I've had to reconcile- why she wouldn't listen to me, and then ended up nearly destroying us over someone I had identified as a potential problem. That's a tough pill to swallow, any way you look at it.
> 
> Short answer? Pride. She thought if I could tell this guy was a jerk, why couldn't she? She didn't detect anything, and she would know if he had designs on her, right? I mean, after all, I wasn't around him enough to really 'know' him.
> 
> Which, makes perfect sense if you're in her shoes. He had done nothing to prove me right to this point, nor for months after.
> 
> For a better explanation, read the reply from @personofinterest Lot of similarities with regards to how my W saw this.





BluesPower said:


> Not really related... But what @personofinterest said, and your wife's issue and you feeling of not being listened too, they are related... but how...
> 
> Me and GF have the same issue, and for the life of me I don't know why. She will ask a question, I answer it, she then googles the question, and is surprised when I am correct EVERY SINGLE TIME.
> 
> If this has happened once it has happened a 1000 times... Never once was I controlling, never once did I call her stupid for not knowing the answer, none of that. I just remember some things. Not everything either just some stuff I retain.
> 
> And I am the same way with people, I have the 6th sense. And I am always right, ever single time. If I don't like someone, there is a reason, so I listen to my 6th sense...
> 
> But you ask me a question, and then don't trust the answer even though I am right ever single time...
> 
> WTF is up with that... What is that about?
> 
> I just don't get it...


I'm just going to drop a small comment in here, on the one not believing the other, in a myriad and regarding almost all topics, if you will.

The old adage "someone convinced against their will is of the same opinion still" is almost always true, in again, any circumstance. 

It takes many forms, has many reasons, and there are different ways to overcome. 

People want to believe what they want to believe sometimes even the face of overwhelming contradictory facts.

Welcome to human nature.


----------



## personofinterest

> People want to believe what they want to believe sometimes even the face of overwhelming contradictory facts.


Sadly, this is true. Look at how many people who end up being betrayed spouses didn't want to believe it, even REFUSED to believe it, in the face of overwhelming evidence.

They can't all just be "stupid". We don't want to believe bad things about ourselves or about those we love.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Music_Man said:


> This hits home. W and I both know what happened and how we got here. It's okay and even healthy to remember the mistakes and the issues that led us here- and to remember the lessons learned, but to sit and wallow in it 24/7 and let it fester into bitterness is NOT healthy and not the way to recovery.
> 
> There are folks in these very forums, unfortunately, that do want to see folks end up reconciling or even happy, because they themselves never recovered and are not happy. Some of them are crafty and subtle with their conversations, but most intelligent folks can see through it.


You guys have the right attitude. I told my FWW The past is the past and there is nothing you can do about it. Let’s build a great future. As for reconciliation, I am a proponent provided the necessary ingredients are present, most notably TRUE remorse. You and I are fortunate as we experienced true remorse.


----------



## Music_Man

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> You guys have the right attitude. I told my FWW The past is the past and there is nothing you can do about it. Let’s build a great future. As for reconciliation, I am a proponent provided the necessary ingredients are present, most notably TRUE remorse. You and I are fortunate as we experienced true remorse.


Indeed on the remorse part. It absolutely makes me thank my lucky stars that I'm not in a situation like poor Jilted Muppet is in his thread. Devastating stuff to read...


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

I cannot imagine. If my wife had made a video, R would not have been likely. You will find out on this board that there are many situations far worse than what you and I have experienced. Keep moving forward and most of all be patient with each other. As I think I have told other posters in Kentuckesee (Our reference to living on the border) Pat Summit has a quote I used quite often “Left foot, right foot, breath repeat”. In other words just keep moving towards your objective. I am 100% certain you guys are going to be fine.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

Music_Man said:


> This hits home. *W and I both know what happened and how we got here. It's okay and even healthy to remember the mistakes and the issues that led us here- and to remember the lessons learned,* but to sit and wallow in it 24/7 and let it fester into bitterness is NOT healthy and not the way to recovery.
> 
> There are folks in these very forums, unfortunately, that do want to see folks end up reconciling or even happy because they themselves never recovered and are not happy. Some of them are crafty and subtle with their conversations, but most intelligent folks can see through it.


 Did you (or anyone dismissing the comments they don't want to hear) ever stop to consider that those dissenting opinions are being posted to make you consider all angles of the situation? @sokillme is catching a pretty hard time from you and NLLH for bluntly presenting stuff that should definitely be considered and mulled over. I think sometimes it's easier to kill the messenger than to contemplate the message. When you have read on these forums as much as I have (and even more for @sokillme) you see the long term results of "all the questions" not being answered and sometimes/often that end result is a false, or worse yet failed reconciliation. The hard questions are being asked to help you to achieve your end result, not piss you off. 
I'll post one such hard truth right here. @MrsMM said:


> *I also think that others think they can sort of "crack the code" on cheating if I can somehow explain exactly why I did what I did*, and why I didn't just stop it if I was becoming so uncomfortable with it. *There's just not a single, simple answer,* and nothing I say will excuse what I did.


 The "code" was cracked long ago and there is one simple answer that is rare for the Wayward to actually confess to, yet it is universally the rule.

*They did it because they wanted to.*

I may be wrong but I think that was likely what @sokillme was trying to get out of his question to MrsMM. That universal truth is also something that @Music_Man has hopefully gotten his head wrapped around, as hard as that can be. If he hasn't it will eat at him for the rest of his marriage.


----------



## sokillme

Rubix Cubed said:


> Did you (or anyone dismissing the comments they don't want to hear) ever stop to consider that those dissenting opinions are being posted to make you consider all angles of the situation? @sokillme is catching a pretty hard time from you and NLLH for bluntly presenting stuff that should definitely be considered and mulled over. I think sometimes it's easier to kill the messenger than to contemplate the message. When you have read on these forums as much as I have (and even more for @sokillme) you see the long term results of "all the questions" not being answered and sometimes/often that end result is a false, or worse yet failed reconciliation. The hard questions are being asked to help you to achieve your end result, not piss you off.
> I'll post one such hard truth right here.
> @MrsMM said:
> 
> The "code" was cracked long ago and there is one simple answer that is rare for the Wayward to actually confess to, yet it is universally the rule.
> 
> *They did it because they wanted to.*
> 
> I may be wrong but I think that was likely what @sokillme was trying to get out of his question to MrsMM. That universal truth is also something that @Music_Man has hopefully gotten his head wrapped around, as hard as that can be. If he hasn't it will eat at him for the rest of his marriage.


You're not wrong. Better to ask them now when you are all in and intent on doing the work. You have got to suck all the venom out if you want to heal the bite.

If you are not starting with the premise of "They did it because they wanted to" and working from there then you are just fooling yourself. You have to start from there because the key to fixing it is to figure out why you wanted to and why you were willing to compromise your morals to do it. You may never cheat again true, but the underlying problems will still be there to cause issues in an already tenuous relationship. Full accountability is necessary. If you say you did it because you were tricked or fooled then you are really saying you didn't have and affair you were raped.


----------



## Music_Man

I don't think anyone is catching a hard time from me. I came to these forums because I did want honest opinions and did want to make sure I had every question, every angle analyzed. I didn't name anyone specifically in the posts quoted above, just generalizing some posters I've seen, and not just in regards to my situation. 

I've been extremely transparent and forthcoming and will continue to be as much as I can, but there are some things I haven't disclosed- such as the intimate nature of our MC sessions. Some of that just isn't for public consumption. I can assure you all that much deeper discussions of things not even mentioned by other posters- certain motives, desires, etc. have been discussed. There isn't anything our particular MC isn't bringing to light, and I've brought many questions from these very forums into play.

I just get the sense, sometimes, that some folks have an agenda at times and seem to want to steer a thread to meet their preconceived narrative. Perhaps I'm wrong, just my perception.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

“I just get the sense, sometimes, that some folks have an agenda at times and seem to want to steer a thread to meet their preconceived narrative. Perhaps I'm wrong, just my perception.”

You are not wrong IMHO, there are some posters who like to stir up ****. You will get stupid ass advice here, and you will get stellar advice also. After a few months on this board I pretty much figured out the members of the torch and pitchfork brigade. I think you have too.


----------



## sokillme

Music_Man said:


> I don't think anyone is catching a hard time from me. I came to these forums because I did want honest opinions and did want to make sure I had every question, every angle analyzed. I didn't name anyone specifically in the posts quoted above, just generalizing some posters I've seen, and not just in regards to my situation.
> 
> I've been extremely transparent and forthcoming and will continue to be as much as I can, but there are some things I haven't disclosed- such as the intimate nature of our MC sessions. Some of that just isn't for public consumption. I can assure you all that much deeper discussions of things not even mentioned by other posters- certain motives, desires, etc. have been discussed. There isn't anything our particular MC isn't bringing to light, and I've brought many questions from these very forums into play.
> 
> I just get the sense, sometimes, that some folks have an agenda at times and seem to want to steer a thread to meet their preconceived narrative. Perhaps I'm wrong, just my perception.


Perception can change.


----------



## MattMatt

sokillme said:


> Perception can change.


But agendas? Not so much.


----------



## personofinterest

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> “I just get the sense, sometimes, that some folks have an agenda at times and seem to want to steer a thread to meet their preconceived narrative. Perhaps I'm wrong, just my perception.”
> 
> You are not wrong IMHO, there are some posters who like to stir up ****. You will get stupid ass advice here, and you will get stellar advice also. After a few months on this board I pretty much figured out the members of the torch and pitchfork brigade. I think you have too.


Anyone who likes to go after those who show kindness to wayward (like you and me) is part of that brigade, basically.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Indeed I took a lot of flak when I took my FWW back, some of the comments referred to me as being “hoovered”, foolish, and predicted I was heading for disaster. Needless to say, I saw something in my FWW that made me think we could have a successful R. Time has proven me to be correct. I am one of the few on this board who is a proponent of reconciliation, when I get the vibe from the poster that is it maybe a viable option. 

I know fully well that in some instances the best thing to do is to D, and cut your losses.

Ps: We should show kindness to WW when they post here. It take a lot of courage to open up and knowing some people will be extremely harsh. @MrsMM is one who I strongly feel is a good person, and like my wife let her guard down and made a poor decision. I remind those who criticize too strongly and over the top to read Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Point is, none of us is perfect. The only perfect person I know died on a cross for our sins. 

Peace.


----------



## turnera

sokillme said:


> Which is why I think you both need to be open to the fact that on some level she knew but enjoyed it enough to continue anyway.


Of course she did. That's human nature. That's how every affair starts. Nobody's debating that she enjoyed the attention. And that that was wrong and crossed a line. Even she admitted it. So why do you have to keep bringing it up, over and over again? Waiting for the rags and ashes, I assume? 

Let's move on, ok? She's already been pushed out for some's unwillingness to work on the NEXT step, which is what do I now do with this information?


----------



## personofinterest

turnera said:


> sokillme said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which is why I think you both need to be open to the fact that on some level she knew but enjoyed it enough to continue anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course she did. That's human nature. That's how every affair starts. Nobody's debating that she enjoyed the attention. And that that was wrong and crossed a line. Even she admitted it. So why do you have to keep bringing it up, over and over again? Waiting for the rags and ashes, I assume?
> 
> Let's move on, ok? She's already been pushed out for some's unwillingness to work on the NEXT step, which is what do I now do with this information?
Click to expand...

I know. I mean, DUH. WS often like the attention they get.

The goal now is HEALTHY recovery. Hint: lifelong penance isn't it.

I really wish everyone still in dysfunction due to their own pain could find peace. It has to be a very unpleasant way to live and view others


----------



## Rubix Cubed

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> I am one of the few on this board who is a proponent of reconciliation when I get the vibe from the poster that is it may be a viable option.


 I think the whole "proponent of" deal IS an agenda, so if you are commenting you are pushing an agenda. You are on an anonymous message board asking for advice, of course, people will be resolute in their ideas of a solution a.k.a. an agenda. Everyone here has an agenda. Personally, I'm not a proponent of divorce or reconciliation. I am a proponent of using the best tool for the job. Unfortunately as proven over and over again on this and other boards, divorce is usually the best tool in the case of infidelity, there are a handful of exceptions NLLH being one. I believe that Music_Man and MrsMM can be one of those exceptions as well, but to do so he must have contemplated every facet of what he is forgiving, and that's where the hard observations and questions come in. If you lambast anyone by name or subtle "group" suggestion you are proactively muzzling ideas that need to be considered to heal properly.

MrsMM seems like she is excellent R material and remorseful, I just haven't heard her say she *wanted* to be a part of the affair and as small as that one little thing may seem it is huge for the BS. If not now years down the road when that starts bouncing around in his head, and it will. You see it incessantly, they come back and say "I couldn't get over it".

e.t.a. I hope MrsMM is just too busy and hasn't been run off by the hard questions. If she has then how is she going to answer the hard question honestly IRL when they aren't presented in a polite way on a message board?


----------



## Mr.Married

personofinterest said:


> turnera said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sokillme said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which is why I think you both need to be open to the fact that on some level she knew but enjoyed it enough to continue anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course she did. That's human nature. That's how every affair starts. Nobody's debating that she enjoyed the attention. And that that was wrong and crossed a line. Even she admitted it. So why do you have to keep bringing it up, over and over again? Waiting for the rags and ashes, I assume?
> 
> Let's move on, ok? She's already been pushed out for some's unwillingness to work on the NEXT step, which is what do I now do with this information?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I know. I mean, DUH. WS often like the attention they get.
> 
> The goal now is HEALTHY recovery. Hint: lifelong penance isn't it.
> 
> I really wish everyone still in dysfunction due to their own pain could find peace. It has to be a very unpleasant way to live and view others
Click to expand...

And her I was all this time thinking they just liked his shoes ...... go figure!!!


----------



## sokillme

This is the last I am going to say about this but I am gonna respond because the attacks have been on me. I was going to let it go but since it's like 7 posts now indirectly calling me out I might as well get banned again maybe for good this time. 

I don't believe grown accomplished adults cheat because of some machiavellian person essentially tricks them into it. And I think the only reason to assert that it to avoid really digging deep into your soul and facing the hard stuff and what you really did and why. I get that it's easier for spouses to think that because then they don't have to look deep down and admit their spouses just choose someone else at some point of their own free will. And that is really deep down the only reason because it's the only reason that makes sense. There is no magic that makes people cheat. If you want to believe in magic you are not fixing anything doing that, you are just avoiding hard truths. If you don't face it eventually it will come back in some other way. Half the time the BS comes to the same realization 5, 10 even 20 years later, and then it's much worse. 

Same exact thing goes with problems in the marriage or even your spouse suffering from PTSD or Planning a wedding or whatever. Blame that if you want but I suspect the harsh defense of that thinking just confirms that deep down you know it's not true. Your spouse is supposed to protect and help you through your PTSD, or when YOU are suffering in general, not go find someone else to be with. Even if you want to say it was hard on them, they failed you by not helping YOU when YOU were suffering. YES YOU are suffering at that point no them. YOU! Sorry it's bull****. I get that you don't like that but it doesn't make it any less true. 

I have read a lot of R story's. The good ones where the BS stops questioning everything like some do for years and years. The ones where the spouse isn't looking for some mythical reason that makes it understandable are the ones were both the BS and WS admit that they chose to cheat because they wanted to and that's it. They are sorry for that. Then the BS chooses to forgive them and the go on from there. Go read SI's Wayward board, almost all the good posters who give advice on the wayward section and other sections admit this fact. 

Read here. Not one of the WS is saying I cheated because the guy fooled me or the bed wasn't made. Not one and those are WS (in my opinion the kind that you have a chance with). What's their Agenda?

Call me an ******* or say I have an agenda and I do, that's it, it's not like I hide any agenda in my posts I say what I think quite plainly on this site. What I am saying here is also not uncommon and not even controversial to most. It's a pretty standard refrain both here and on SI. But so is blaming the AP or the marriage. Pretty telling that saying that causes some people to call me, out but it's not surprising the biggest proponent of this theory is the one doing it the most. Basically that **** is what you call rug sweeping and there seems to be a lot of it going on on this site of late. 

I don't know about you but if I thought my wife cheated on me (which she hasn't and I don't want anyone getting the wrong idea) because she was tricked by a predator would keep me worried that some other Apex predictor could trick her in another way and I would never feel safe. Which is why you have some "recovered" marriages where the one spouse watches like a hawk and the other spouse hides at home. Not a good dynamic or a healthy marriage in my estimation. However if you get to the point that you admit you cheated because of a character flaw (allowing yourself to cheat) and a deep need that you didn't address in a healthy manor you can fix it and eventually have a healthy dynamic. 

Anyway I will bow out. Just like I bowed out on Jilted Muppet's post, and that other poor soul who eventually left her with. The biggest tell that somethings wrong here is the fact that you got a guy whose wife is making porn movies with some guy, going on sex fused vacations, and still in contact with the AP and there are people telling him to think before he leaves her. That's pretty bad advice in my mind, but when I point that out someone inevitably attacks ME personally not even the advice. The mods don't do anything about it. Of course that happens because how can't justify that advice anyway. Here is a man who is deep in an abusive relationship and the advice is to wait and think about it. Garbage. I have to bow out because if I respond as such I think I will probably be banned for it. Garbage.

One more thing if you can't handle my "agenda" on this internet board (a total stranger) you are in for a rough time. Even the best R is going to be harder then some post that you disagree with on the internet. 

Mods feel free to delete this post effectively silencing me and then ban me for a month as it works around her now, but of course leave the post talking about how nefarious my "agenda is". As is how this place is going now. 

SI 2.0.


----------



## Music_Man

@MrsMM hasn't been 'run off' from the boards. Just a super busy and difficult week, and certification exams to study for also. She'll be back at some point. 

FWIW, she's admitted what she's needed to to me. If you read between the lines, she's admitted it here. She admits that she enjoyed facets of the affair- it's one of the reasons she stayed in it. But if some are holding out for her to say "I wanted him from the day I met him. I loved him, was in love with him, and slept with him all over the hospital 147 times", well just put her on ignore now. Not going to happen. But once the texting and flirting started- yes, of course she wanted it or she wouldn't have participated and also would've stopped it sooner. 

She isn't bothered by what's been said here. She's way tougher than that.


----------



## ConanHub

Music_Man said:


> @MrsMM hasn't been 'run off' from the boards. Just a super busy and difficult week, and certification exams to study for also. She'll be back at some point.
> 
> FWIW, she's admitted what she's needed to to me. If you read between the lines, she's admitted it here. She admits that she enjoyed facets of the affair- it's one of the reasons she stayed in it. But if some are holding out for her to say "I wanted him from the day I met him. I loved him, was in love with him, and slept with him all over the hospital 147 times", well just put her on ignore now. Not going to happen. But once the texting and flirting started- yes, of course she wanted it or she wouldn't have participated and also would've stopped it sooner.
> 
> She isn't bothered by what's been said here. She's way tougher than that.


Enjoying attention from others is normal, and with healthy boundaries, it is good for overall health and friendly relationships.

We just had a 3 day conference where a lot of hugging and good natured flirting went on.

Lots of touches traded during conversations as well.

I enjoyed the interaction and I think most healthy people do. It gets unhealthy when boundaries are crossed but it still feels good. Why wouldn't it?

Maybe most could relate if they understood that the interaction and attention received from others that feels good to them would not go away because boundaries are crossed. Those feelings might, and probably will, get even stronger if nurtured in a secretive manner like the start of an EA.


----------



## Music_Man

ConanHub said:


> Enjoying attention from others is normal, and with healthy boundaries, it is good for overall health and friendly relationships.
> 
> 
> 
> We just had a 3 day conference where a lot of hugging and good natured flirting went on.
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of touches traded during conversations as well.
> 
> 
> 
> I enjoyed the interaction and I think most healthy people do. It gets unhealthy when boundaries are crossed but it still feels good. Why wouldn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe most could relate if they understood that the interaction and attention received from others that feels good to them would not go away because boundaries are crossed. Those feelings might, and probably will, get even stronger if nurtured in a secretive manner like the start of an EA.


Well said @ConanHub. And boundaries are the key. A 'good marriage' is not an affair proof marriage. Boundaries are the key.


----------



## sokillme

Music_Man said:


> @MrsMMFWIW, she's admitted what she's needed to to me. If you read between the lines, she's admitted it here. She admits that she enjoyed facets of the affair- it's one of the reasons she stayed in it. But if some are holding out for her to say "I wanted him from the day I met him. I loved him, was in love with him, and slept with him all over the hospital 147 times", well just put her on ignore now. Not going to happen. But once the texting and flirting started- yes, of course she wanted it or she wouldn't have participated and also would've stopped it sooner.


Which I never ever said, ever! And why I am pissed. Read my posts on here again, basically @MrsMM has now confirmed my point and only point. I never questioned her story as far as sex or that she would go back to that at all!

Again I think you have a very good chance. I don't think this will happen again in fact. That's because don't believe the affair was about sex or emotional attachment in any way. I think it was about getting and ego boost which I have said about 100xs on here. I am saying to for you dude! I am trying to get across to you that YOU didn't do anything wrong and it's not about any failing in YOU!!!!! And you keep attacking me for it. 

Also that I don't think you are in any danger of her succumbing to some smooth talking George Clooney type. MrsMM is not so innocent to not be able to smell out some phony dude trying to pick her up. Sorry MrsMM but you know I am right. You don't get to be a head nurse and do all you have done in your life by being a bad judge of people. I suspect MrsMM has very very good interpersonal skills, which is why I also suspect in the back of her mind she probably knew something was up. But that was never what this was about that in the first place and the tell is that she only passively participated in it. All she wanted from it and all she allowed herself to participate in was getting compliments, compliments that filled her ego. Yes I am being harsh here but doesn't what I am saying given the evidence make sense? Why else would she allow it to continue but not respond? It continued precisely because she could tell herself I don't want this POS but maybe I will let him blow some smoke because it feels kind of nice. 

The danger here at least as how I theorize is that MrsMM likes to be successful (and there is nothing inherently wrong with that). Lots of people get great worth from accomplishments and kind of in the same vain those people like people to recognizing that an say as much, but in this case she liked the attention from someone who was accomplished and who she respected (at the time) enough to be disrespectful to her husband and marriage. As I see it at first it probably was, _it feels good to have this accomplished doctor telling me how good I am at my job. He really likes and respects me._ Then it became obvious that he was attracted to her too. 

At that point she was at a crossroads, however it probably also shocking to her that her, a good, moral, raised Christian women, that having someone giving her sexual attention also felt just as good. She probably assumed she would be disgusted and it would be easy to say **** off. It's a sin and according to how she was brought up she shouldn't feel that way right? It's a very dirty sexual sin that only very bad people would ever like. Yet it did feel good, it was another new avenue to have someone appreciate you, and that was probably a new feeling and exciting in a way as well. To quote the killers "They say the devil's water — it ain't so sweet you don't have to drink right now but you can dip your feet every once in a little while." And even though this was sex it was still in the wheelhouse. The wheelhouse of feeling good about yourself because others see you as valuable. Valuable in your job, valuable in your marriage, valuable in your attractiveness. OK maybe I am wrong, but at least think about it. Because if that is the case maybe next time it will be that wheelhouse that will get you in trouble some other way. 

The only reason I am pointing this out and continuing to post while being told I want your R to fail is because I am not sure even MrsMM sees this yet. She herself said she doesn't really understand why. Well maybe this is it, or maybe I am wrong (and I have no problem you saying such, but stop saying my agenda is to stop you from being successful! I am ****ing trying to help here while being told I just want to destroy your marriage and that sucks.) Maybe just pointing this out will start a dialogue that will help you figure out it's something else. That is kind of the point here right? Why are you posting if not? Just for sympathy?

Dude from the first I have been saying this to HELP YOU! Even if I am wrong I am right that YOU didn't do ANYTHING WRONG! Same goes for NLLH! I get it your nature is to protect your wives, it's actually mind too. But at this point your wives have ask for forgiveness and are no longer that person. Shockingly enough that is how I think about MrsMM and NLLH's wife. Doesn't mean you can't talk about what they did in the past. But seems to me you are attacking the messenger to protect them without even listening to what is being said. Most of the time all I am saying is IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT! In this case in my mind it wasn't about your attractiveness or some failing in your marriage. I am not attacking your wife or you. I am trying to help both of you.


----------



## Music_Man

sokillme said:


> Which I never ever said, ever! And why I am pissed. Read my posts on here again, basically @MrsMM has now confirmed my point and only point. I never questioned her story as far as sex or that she would go back to that at all!
> 
> Again I think you have a very good chance. I don't think this will happen again in fact. That's because don't believe the affair was about sex or emotional attachment in any way. I think it was about getting and ego boost which I have said about 100xs on here. I am saying to for you dude! I am trying to get across to you that YOU didn't do anything wrong and it's not about any failing in YOU!!!!! And you keep attacking me for it.
> 
> Also that I don't think you are in any danger of her succumbing to some smooth talking George Clooney type. MrsMM is not so innocent to not be able to smell out some phony dude trying to pick her up. Sorry MrsMM but you know I am right. You don't get to be a head nurse and do all you have done in your life by being a bad judge of people. I suspect MrsMM has very very good interpersonal skills, which is why I also suspect in the back of her mind she probably knew something was up. But that was never what this was about that in the first place and the tell is that she only passively participated in it. All she wanted from it and all she allowed herself to participate in was getting compliments, compliments that filled her ego. Yes I am being harsh here but doesn't what I am saying given the evidence make sense? Why else would she allow it to continue but not respond? It continued precisely because she could tell herself I don't want this POS but maybe I will let him blow some smoke because it feels kind of nice.
> 
> The danger here at least as how I theorize is that MrsMM likes to be successful (and there is nothing inherently wrong with that). Lots of people get great worth from accomplishments and kind of in the same vain those people like people recognizing that, but in this case she liked the attention from someone who was accomplished and who she respected (at the time) enough to be disrespectful to her husband and marriage. As I see it at first it probably was, _it feels good to have this accomplished doctor telling me how good I am at my job. He really likes and respects me._ Then it became obvious that he was attracted to her too.
> 
> At that point she was at a crossroads, however it probably also shocking to her that her, a good moral, raised Christian women, that having someone giving her sexual attention also felt just as good. She probably assumed she would be disgusted and it would be easy to say **** off. But that is a sin and according to how she was brought up she shouldn't feel that way right? It's dirty and should feel that way. Yet it did, and that was probably a new feeling and exciting in a way as well. To quote the killers "They say the devil's water — it ain't so sweet you don't have to drink right now but you can dip your feet every once in a little while." And even though this was sex it was still in the wheel house. The wheel house of feeling good about yourself because others see you as valuable. Valuable in your job, valuable in your marriage, valuable in your attractiveness. OK maybe I am wrong, but at least think about it. Because if that is the case maybe next time it will be that wheelhouse that will get you in trouble some other way.
> 
> The only reason I am pointing this out and continuing to post while being told I want your R to fail is because I am not sure even MrsMM sees this yet. She herself said she doesn't really understand why. Well maybe this is it, or maybe I am wrong (and I have no problem you saying such, but stop saying my agenda is to stop you from being successful! I am ****ing trying to help here while being told I just want to destroy your marriage and that sucks.) Maybe just pointing this out will start a dialogue that will help you figure out it's something else. That is kind of the point here right? Why are you posting if not. Just for sympathy?
> 
> Dude from the first I have been saying this to HELP YOU! Even if I am wrong I am right YOU didn't do ANYTHING WRONG! Same goes for NLLH! I get it your nature is to protect your wives, it's actually mind too. But at this point your wives have ask for forgiveness and are no longer that person. Shockingly enough that is how I think about MrsMM and NLLH's wife. Doesn't mean you can't talk about what they did in the past. But seems to me you are attacking the messenger to protect them without even listening to what is being said. Most of the time all I am saying is IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT! In this case in my mind it wasn't about your attractiveness or some failing in your marriage. I am not attacking your wife or you. I am trying to help both of you.[/quote @sokillme I wasn't calling you out in the last post. It's subtle digs from others, from my thread more than this one. Don't assume it's always you


----------



## ConanHub

sokillme said:


> REDACTED


Chill dude. You come off a certain way regardless of if you intend to or not.

If your posts aren't appealing for MM, no big deal. You don't have to get so snippy.

This thread was for he and his lady to share about their experience in hopes that others could learn and be helped.

I get that you more than likely believe you are totally in line with the OP but you must be conveying something else to a lot of the TAM community.


----------



## sokillme

ConanHub said:


> Chill dude. You come off a certain way regardless of if you intend to or not.
> 
> If your posts aren't appealing for MM, no big deal. You don't have to get so snippy.
> 
> This thread was for he and his lady to share about their experience in hopes that others could learn and be helped.
> 
> I get that you more than likely believe you are totally in line with the OP but you must be conveying something else to a lot of the TAM community.


This is probably true.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

ConanHub said:


> Chill dude. You come off a certain way regardless of if you intend to or not.
> 
> If your posts aren't appealing for MM, no big deal. You don't have to get so snippy.
> 
> This thread was for he and his lady to share about their experience in hopes that others could learn and be helped.
> 
> I get that you more than likely believe you are totally in line with the OP but you must be conveying something else to a lot of the TAM community.


Amen


----------



## Mr.Married

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Amen


Amen indeed.


----------



## Decorum

Hi @MrsMM,

I am glad to meet you however anonymously it may be.

I am also glad you and your husband are working through this together.

Honestly I think that Mr.MM is here seeking healing for an incurable wound. If not healing then consolation.

It seems the right path for him. His options are limited. 

I am not a believer in bigger-better-stronger as a rule, but I do know that people are sometimes weak, sometimes needy, and sometimes vulnerable. 

Mix that with a laspe of judgment and you have done something that changes everything. 

Sometimes other people make choices for us. It is the best of humanity that rebuilds from devastation. 
You chose this for him. Now you both rebuild.

I do have one concern.
Generally if you let someone meet your emotional needs, especially if you are attracted to them, you will catch feelings for them. 

Sex usually follows. (In dating relationships for example.)

It's a strong biological imperative.

Time together + Attraction (of some kind) + feelings + intimate conversation (not necessarily sexual) = intercourse. 

People are wired to meet and mate fairly quickly.

I think your assertion that you would not (or perhaps would never?) let it go physical is shortsighted. 

I have to believe MrMM doesn't buy it either. 

It is an ugly thing to face.

This smacks as a lack of self-awareness. 

It may be believable as a matter of circumstances, but any more than that seems doubtful. 

True objectivity is a precious thing.

I can more easily trust someone if they can honestly evaluate their risk for infidelity, than all the vows or confident assertions in the world.

That said I dont want to be hard on you. I find your reconciliation very encouraging and I am glad you both are here.

I look forward to hearing more from M&MMM.


----------



## personofinterest

I for one hope Mrs M does not post at all again.

The goals here are clear.

I hope Mr M will advise her not to.

And before I give in to the temptation to spell out why as explicitly as possible....I'm gonna go ahead and give MYSELF a vacation.


----------



## MrsMM

Wow! I'm away for a couple of days and look what happens:surprise: This will probably be last post for awhile. I need to continue on the road to healing and most importantly, supporting MM and HIS recovery, and right now this could be a potential stumbling block (triggers and so forth). Nothing too serious yet, but why risk setbacks? My DH seems to have cleared up a few things and took the liberty of answering some questions. We're on the same page so that's absolutely fine. 

I'll take a quick stab at a few things here, then I bid you all farewell until a later date. I know that I can potentially help others, so I will be back. After all, that's one of my goals :smile2:

Yes, I obviously liked the attention. I enjoyed getting compliments about career the most, but I absolutely enjoyed having an accomplished surgeon tell me how beautiful I was. I enjoyed the flirting, and I even enjoyed some of the sexual talk for a season. However, when it became ONLY sex talk, I began to feel uncomfortable very quickly. When he attempted the kiss and then stayed only in the realm of sexual texts thereafter, I was looking to stop it. This is NOT to minimize the fact that I did enjoy the attention, it's to try to give you a glimpse inside my head, and perhaps more importantly, my heart.

Now, the million $$$ question, how am I so certain it _never_ would've gone further? Let me clarify something. Based on how things were going with us, and him becoming more and more aggressive, I know there is no way, under THESE circumstances that I would have taken it physical. I also had at least one boundary in place- to make sure that no one ever got a HINT that we were texting and flirting. This meant that I absolutely had physical boundaries when at work. 

Now, what would have happened had he NOT become aggressive, had he just continued complimenting my work and my looks and continued with the 'baby steps'? That's been a tough one to answer, and one that Mr MM grilled me over and interrogated me over to an extreme degree. And it's answer? I don't know. I think most rational, intelligent adults would surmise that something would've happened physically, if this path had been taken. BUT, that path was not taken, and I wasn't in that particular situation. My gut? I hope that I would still stop, that my morals and work ethic and my husband and everything else would have been enough, but my gut says it would have been possible, even probable, based on the above scenarios.

And this is something important and both scary at the same time: during my IC sessions and in reading Not Just Friends, it's been stated that for almost all women, the gap from talking and flirting to the first kiss is much wider than the gap from kiss to sexual contact or full blown intercourse. This shows me that him trying to kiss me and me being shocked and pushing him away is one of THE most important instances of this whole affair. If I had accepted, pulled him to me instead of pushing away, perhaps my DH would have been on here asking for D advice instead of R. It is absolutely something to not only ponder, but something to dig deeply into. Again, the affirmative answer? Unknown. Gut answer? Trouble was not only possible, but probable.

Hope that answers things for you all. I hate to live in the what if land, but we have and will continue to explore as needed. Again, thankful beyond measure that God provided a way out when He did. His timing was impeccable, and we both believe it shows that He has bigger and better plans for our relationship.


----------



## Mr.Married

If there was an instance I've ever seen here that sounds and looks like a GREAT chance for reconciliation ...... this is it.

Good Luck going forward to both of you !!!


----------



## ConanHub

I value your experience @MrsMM

Your willingness to share and help is appreciated.


----------



## skerzoid

There is only one instance of someone having lived a perfect life in this world. The rest of us? We have to deal with fact that we are half flesh and half spirit. That flesh part is what gets us all in trouble. Getting the spirit to control a billion years of physical instinct proves the unmaking of us all in one way or another. Thank God your spirit was strong enough when it had to be.


----------



## Music_Man

Mr.Married said:


> If there was an instance I've ever seen here that sounds and looks like a GREAT chance for reconciliation ...... this is it.
> 
> 
> 
> Good Luck going forward to both of you !!!


With my W's few posts, I hope that some have seen a glimpse of the hope that I have. Again, if she wasn't truly remorseful, if she blamed me, if she wasn't truly invested in learning from what happened, if she wasn't truly concerned about my healing and my need for truth...all of this and more, really, then I wouldn't be here.

We have something that's worth fighting for. I know that we'll make it and we will be better for it, despite the pain and suffering. 

Thanks for those that encouraged her along the way, and thanks to those that offered well-thought-out concerns. Both are very welcome.


----------



## Decorum

MrsMM said:


> Wow! I'm away for a couple of days and look what happens:surprise: This will probably be last post for awhile. I need to continue on the road to healing and most importantly, supporting MM and HIS recovery, and right now this could be a potential stumbling block (triggers and so forth). Nothing too serious yet, but why risk setbacks? My DH seems to have cleared up a few things and took the liberty of answering some questions. We're on the same page so that's absolutely fine.
> 
> I'll take a quick stab at a few things here, then I bid you all farewell until a later date. I know that I can potentially help others, so I will be back. After all, that's one of my goals :smile2:
> 
> Yes, I obviously liked the attention. I enjoyed getting compliments about career the most, but I absolutely enjoyed having an accomplished surgeon tell me how beautiful I was. I enjoyed the flirting, and I even enjoyed some of the sexual talk for a season. However, when it became ONLY sex talk, I began to feel uncomfortable very quickly. When he attempted the kiss and then stayed only in the realm of sexual texts thereafter, I was looking to stop it. This is NOT to minimize the fact that I did enjoy the attention, it's to try to give you a glimpse inside my head, and perhaps more importantly, my heart.
> 
> Now, the million $$$ question, how am I so certain it _never_ would've gone further? Let me clarify something. Based on how things were going with us, and him becoming more and more aggressive, I know there is no way, under THESE circumstances that I would have taken it physical. I also had at least one boundary in place- to make sure that no one ever got a HINT that we were texting and flirting. This meant that I absolutely had physical boundaries when at work.
> 
> Now, what would have happened had he NOT become aggressive, had he just continued complimenting my work and my looks and continued with the 'baby steps'? That's been a tough one to answer, and one that Mr MM grilled me over and interrogated me over to an extreme degree. And it's answer? I don't know. I think most rational, intelligent adults would surmise that something would've happened physically, if this path had been taken. BUT, that path was not taken, and I wasn't in that particular situation. My gut? I hope that I would still stop, that my morals and work ethic and my husband and everything else would have been enough, but my gut says it would have been possible, even probable, based on the above scenarios.
> 
> And this is something important and both scary at the same time: during my IC sessions and in reading Not Just Friends, it's been stated that for almost all women, the gap from talking and flirting to the first kiss is much wider than the gap from kiss to sexual contact or full blown intercourse. This shows me that him trying to kiss me and me being shocked and pushing him away is one of THE most important instances of this whole affair. If I had accepted, pulled him to me instead of pushing away, perhaps my DH would have been on here asking for D advice instead of R. It is absolutely something to not only ponder, but something to dig deeply into. Again, the affirmative answer? Unknown. Gut answer? Trouble was not only possible, but probable.
> 
> Hope that answers things for you all. I hate to live in the what if land, but we have and will continue to explore as needed. Again, thankful beyond measure that God provided a way out when He did. His timing was impeccable, and we both believe it shows that He has bigger and better plans for our relationship.



You answered that very well.

I think your awareness of the issues involved likely makes you an even safer partner as a result of your life experience.

Some will argue, and I might agree, that once someone cheats it is easier to do so again, but for some the opposite is true, and significantly so.

Typically repeat infidelity occures because there is some insecurity invloved, (Sometimes Family Of Origin Issues, like abuse, neglect etc), or there is a reluctance to take full responsibility, or the wayward partner still romanticizes their affair, ect.

It is a matter of character. 

I can see your intention to confront and address any darkness of that kind. It speaks well of who you are as a person.

I am glad for both your sakes.

Mr.MM
You both have a unique "world view" that many will not understand. This was a "death" for you. Once grace enters any residual suffering is meant as a blessing for you (both). A reminder to you and a warning to others.

It is not an easy path, but I will leave you with this.

"But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves; we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body." 2Corinthians 4

"Alway carry it!"

I really wish you both well.
Take care!


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## Music_Man

Thanks @Decorum

You touched on something that is heavy on both of our hearts and one of the reasons I'm still here- we can help others once we are in the right stage of this, and we know that good can and will come from this in time...a far better marriage and some learned truths that will hopefully save someone else.


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