# I had it all threw it all away...



## frustratedinphx

My husband and I had a really difficult marriage for many years, but we've been married for 11 and together for 13. We have 3 kids- 8, 5 & 3 mos. If you read any of my other posts, I talk about him being mean and saying hurtful things, threatening to leave when he'd get mad and screaming at me for years. I wanted his attention and just couldn't get it. I tried seducing him, lingerie, going to therapy with him and alone and trying to understand his ADHD, serious level of involvement with video games and being a work aholic.

Somewhere along the way, I let an old colleague into my life and shared what was going on. He like everyone else acted as if what my husband was doing was wrong and I felt a little validated.

At some point, he expressed feelings for me, I had had a little crush on him. He lives in another state (6+ hours drive away), but one thing led to another and it became an EA and then a PA that went on and off for 5 years. We were intimate about 6 times, but i never saw him otherwise. It was texts and and skype and instant message. We exchanged a few pictures and at the point I decided I wanted out, he decided to blackmail me saying that he would expose the pictures he had of me and he claimed that he had pictures he took of me when we were together- I'm not sure I believe it.

Long story short, because this was all via text, i had to take screen shots of my phone. I'm not stupid, but I really didn't understand how having an icloud worked. My husband on the other hand is a VP in a tech company and his specialty- cloud networks. The pictures I took ended up on my icloud and when he bought me a new computer and was setting it up, he found those screen shots.

Initially I downplayed it and said that it was just texting/sexting. He went through every device (computer, ipad, etc) and found a lot more. He exploded and I withheld all of the truth because after I severed communication with the OM who reacted by trying to blackmail me again which I refused to give in to (I was ready to face whatever he had to dish out if he was really going to act), his first reaction was to try to kill the guy and he was prepared to drive to another state to do it. 

I didn't want him to go to jail or worse because the OM has guns and end up injured himself. So I never told him the full extent that I talked to this guy for 5 years. I only told him that i saw him twice and it was for 2011 & 2012. One major thing he really struggled with is that as we were trying to conceive our third child and this was when the A was ending. There was a little overlap with the last time I slept with OM and when we were trying to conceive but absolutely no possibility that our baby is OMs. She was conceived in June and the last physical contact with OM was in March.

We reconciled initially but he struggled to understand why I had done what I did, which I completely understand. I felt awful and take full responsibility for my actions and the impact it will have on us and our 3 kids. Over the last few weeks I wrestled with myself as we tried to get on with our lives. He'd have moments of doubt and tell me he didn't trust me which I understood.

To complicate things, when I was pregnant, he had to go to work in Brazil and while out at a bar or club with some colleagues a very forward girl introduced herself and put her phone number in his phone. When he got home from this trip, he was acting weird- always checking his phone, keeping it face down so one night/morning, at 5A i checked his phone and found a conversation with this girl (much younger) and a picture of her naked with her nipples covered up. I was 9 mos pregnant and due in less than a month. It was devastating but I didnt' want to give up my marriage. I thought karma had just bit me in the butt and almost felt like I deserved it.

When I confronted him, he cried and said he wanted to be a family and didn't want to break up. I understood completely and wanted to work it out. After our marriage being bad for so long, it was finally on a better path or so I thought.

Fast forward to the last few weeks and as it appeared we would really be able to reconcile I began to feel guilt about not telling him the full truth. All day yesterday I struggled to find a way to tell him. I suggesed we go to counseling hoping that in an IC session I could get help to do so. I was with a client and started getting these texts that he found everything that I was a liar and a cheat and he wanted a divorce. Because I was working, I couldn't even respond until my client left.

He's so angry at me that he won't talk to me at all. I've tried everythign to talk to him, following him, wrote him a letter and he just clams up or tells me that it's over, that he's getting a lawyer and that he's leaving me.

I know what I did was wrong and can never justify anything I did. But for so long, he wouldn't talk to me and when he did, it was just cruel. I thought we would never work it out and that I would dry up and be an old prune. It was so nice to feel like someone cared and asked about my day. The thing I craved most from the OM was his companionship. He asked about my day, told me I was pretty, none of the things my husband would do. I tried to ask BS to put into perspective what he felt was the reason he needed to have his one mini EA. 

I told him the only thing he didn't have more of for it to be a full blown EA and possibly PA was time- he hadn't known her long enough and the business deal that he was sent to Brazil for was not going through. I caught him looking at her facebook profile and possibly talking to her a few times after that and always just tried to be brave. I will never know what really happened although he says nothing did, but now that he wishes they did have sex.

I'm so distraught. I understand why he wants to leave, but will do anything to get him back. I don't mean to sound desperate, but I love him so much and our family. I want to grow old together adn raise our kids and have grandkids together. I'm so embarrassed at what I've done and ashamed for being so stupid. I can't believe my life went from being so good to something out of a Jerry Springer episode. I'm such an idiot for letting things go on and not wising up sooner. Every time BS would crap all over me, somehow OM would appear saying nice things. The timing was really sick. It was really more of an EA than a PA, though it was definitely PA on occasion 1-2s/yr.

I know I will never get anyone to feel sorry for me because I have no excuse for what I did, but can any of you BSs tell me what if anything I can do or what I may be missing to understand what he's going through and if any of you reconciled after an EA/PA, I would love to hear how you did it. I want with all my heart to be with him and would give up my social media accounts, instant messenger and even my job to be with him and be a family again and to have him want us to be a family and him want to be with me.

As of now, he hasn't packed his thigns, but he threw out our smaller wedding photos and gave me back his wedding ring and the watch I gave him on our wedding day. I am so numb, I can't even cry. I just hate myself and don't think I'll ever stop hating myself. Please help me.


----------



## badmemory

You have to demonstrate complete remorse and let the chips fall where they may. 

Respect his reactions, and when you do have a chance to talk to him, remind him how sorry you are, remind him that you don't want a divorce, and that you want to spend the rest of your life making up for what you've done. 

But don't tell him that unless you mean it.

For what not to do; don't beg or plead, don't argue, don't communicate with him if he's asked you not to. And most importantly, don't suggest to him in any way, that there were "reasons" for your cheating - like you've done in your post. Because there are none. They're just bad excuses.

Then, accept his decision. No matter what. If he chooses to leave, work on understanding why you had so little respect for your wedding vows. So that it won't happen to the next guy.


----------



## Acabado

frustratedinphx said:


> As of now, he hasn't packed his thigns, but he threw out our smaller wedding photos and gave me back his wedding ring and the watch I gave him on our wedding day. I am so numb, I can't even cry. I just hate myself and don't think I'll ever stop hating myself. Please help me.


Get a calendar and write down a timeline of the affair. When, what, how, who... Just facts. Then write down the truth about what was going on in your head and heart at the time, being completely honest with yourself first (fight the urge of controling outcomes, to put things in a better light) and then with thim. Anyhing short of complete honesty is more manipulation. Offer him to respond any questions he migh have for so long as he needs, to his entire satisfaction.
Offer a polygraph.
Send him a list of your passwords, pins, secret accounts, etc.
Get rid of any memento, clothes, whataver is linked to OM or the affair.
Try your best to empathize and write down an apology letter stating specifically what you are sorry about.
Purchase now Not Just Friends, by Shirley Glass.

Be humble, accept the most predictable outcome is the divorce. Just ask another chance to prove yourself.

I fear the amount of lies you brought to cover the full extent of the affair sealed the deal in his mind. I've seen this scenario too many times to count. TT really kills the marriage, more than the actual transgressions.


----------



## barbados

Five year long affair is just too much IHO, and to make matters worse, you even lied about that and made him find out the full extent of the affair. BTW, how did he eventually find out ?


----------



## Acoa

frustratedinphx said:


> can any of you BSs tell me what if anything I can do or what I may be missing to understand what he's going through


It's going to be difficult for your H to trust you again. Dday 1 is bad. Finding out later that you lied about it to cover up it's extent is a betrayal on top of that betrayal. 

It's obvious he has issues (gaming, workaholic, Brazilian GF?). Your marriage also has issues. And you have issues. You need to separate these three things.

Your desire to be told you look good is not an excuse for cheating. You need to own up to your mistakes and your deceit. This doesn't mean letting your H off the hook for neglecting you, or his own bad behavior. But don't link the two together. You may want to believe they are related, but that's just because you want to feel good about yourself. That self protection will sabotage any chance for R.

Some men can't get over it. There may be nothing you can do.


----------



## SomedayDig

Mirroring what Barbados said, the affair itself was bad. The lies about it after Dday... Well that just makes it horrific. Empathize all you want. You'll never understand what that feels like.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## badmemory

Acoa said:


> You need to own up to your mistakes and your deceit. This doesn't mean letting your H off the hook for neglecting you, or his own bad behavior. But don't link the two together. You may want to believe they are related, but that's just because you want to feel good about yourself. That self protection will sabotage any chance for R.


Well said.


----------



## Acabado

More practical things you can do NOW.
STD tests.
Paternity test
Saving the money spent on affair/OM.


----------



## Acabado

This is what an apology - no excuses, specific - letter looks like.

What I'm sorry for


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

I do feel sorry for you to a certain extent. What I see is you were verbally abused and neglected by your husband for basically your entire marriage. He was and probably still is an ass, regardless of how successful he is at work. Regardless, having the affair was inexcusable and the wrong choice to make - especially since it was 5 years long. However, I can understand why you did it, although that doesn't mean what you did was right. 

This paragraph is probably more applicable to others as a warning than anything else. Being a piss poor spouse will have consequences. Not all of those consequences will be morally right, but infidelity can be a consequence of bad behavior. It's why complacency in marriage is a killer, but it's even more heinous if you are abusive on top of it. There are plenty of traps out there to ruin marriages. It is within our best interests to at least control those things that we can, like ourselves.

Unfortunately OP, I don't know what is best for you moving forward. Your husband is a royal ass, but because of your infidelity, most people here will key on your indiscretions and will not take the SOB to task for his own sins. If the two of you do stay together, I don't see how he will feel any need to work on his own problems. Because whenever you would ever voice displeasure in what he's doing wrong, you get a heaping plate of "well, at least I didn't fvck anyone while I was married to you...". Then you'll shut up and feel terrible guilt over what you did. He seems to be the type that will use your affair as a license to do whatever he wants moving forward. JMHO, I think divorce is going to be the only option left.


----------



## PamJ

<<Get a calendar and write down a timeline of the affair. When, what, how, who... Just facts. Then write down the truth about what was going on in your head and heart at the time, being completely honest with yourself first (fight the urge of controling outcomes, to put things in a better light) and then with thim. Anyhing short of complete honesty is more manipulation. Offer him to respond any questions he migh have for so long as he needs, to his entire satisfaction.
Offer a polygraph.
Send him a list of your passwords, pins, secret accounts, etc.
Get rid of any memento, clothes, whataver is linked to OM or the affair.
Try your best to empathize and write down an apology letter stating specifically what you are sorry about.
Purchase now Not Just Friends, by Shirley Glass.

Be humble, accept the most predictable outcome is the divorce. Just ask another chance to prove yourself.

I fear the amount of lies you brought to cover the full extent of the affair sealed the deal in his mind. I've seen this scenario too many times to count. TT really kills the marriage, more than the actual transgressions.>>

This is a tough one, but definitely all of the above. What a BS needs , most of them anyway, is to finally know the whole truth. The timeline helps a lot. Doing it voluntarily , before he requests it helps more. The worse thing is the trickle truth, the only admitting what they already know, as you did. 

It will take time and you have follow through with your actions what you said you are willing to do.

Don't EVER try to explain what you did by using the lack of attention you got. It will hurt, not help. I know full well my H and I were not in a good place before his A started, but it is not, and will never be, an excuse for his decision to betray me. It might be true, but he does not want to hear it, and if staying together is your goal, you've got to play it his way, for a long, long time.

You can't apologize enough, but try, every day, you have to listen and answer any and all questions.

Good luck.


----------



## Acabado

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I do feel sorry for you to a certain extent. What I see is you were verbally abused and neglected by your husband for basically your entire marriage. He was and probably still is an ass, regardless of how successful he is at work. Regardless, having the affair was inexcusable and the wrong choice to make - especially since it was 5 years long. However, I can understand why you did it, although that doesn't mean what you did was right.
> 
> This paragraph is probably more applicable to others as a warning than anything else. Being a piss poor spouse will have consequences. Not all of those consequences will be morally right, but infidelity can be a consequence of bad behavior. It's why complacency in marriage is a killer, but it's even more heinous if you are abusive on top of it. There are plenty of traps out there to ruin marriages. It is within our best interests to at least control those things that we can, like ourselves.
> 
> Unfortunately OP, I don't know what is best for you moving forward. Your husband is a royal ass, but because of your infidelity, most people here will key on your indiscretions and will not take the SOB to task for his own sins. If the two of you do stay together, I don't see how he will feel any need to work on his own problems. Because whenever you would ever voice displeasure in what he's doing wrong, you get a heaping plate of "well, at least I didn't fvck anyone while I was married to you...". Then you'll shut up and feel terrible guilt over what you did. He seems to be the type that will use your affair as a license to do whatever he wants moving forward. JMHO, I think divorce is going to be the only option left.


This advice is no more than complete blameshifting BS.
Half of the marriage is a complete joke.
She could have left at the six years mark. Period.
Why the hell is she so commited to keep the marriage alive if BH is a monster?
And scaring OP by predicting the way he's going to behave from now on in case he don't file for divorce is well...
This the the kind of post in which the lack of direct experience on infidelity get exposed, Plan 9.


----------



## Squeakr

Start to change yourself for the marriage and because you want to do this for him. You say you will give up social media accounts, instant messenger, and job to be with him and your family. If you feel that strongly, give them up now (maybe not the job unless it is a way you met and kept in touch with the OM and it is causing issues in your marriage). The other two should be gone already if they are causing the issues. You should have just done it and then say, look at what I am doing to change, instead of making it sound like a compromise on your part.

When my WW had her A through IM and FB, I hated them. I got so sick of what they assisted in the downfall of my marriage and family, so much so that I gave them up mine. She would say things like I will give them up if you want me to. This told me she wanted them and would hold it against me if I asked for such things as it was only being done for me (I did insist that she unfriend all those that were toxic to the marriage and family, but only that much). I never said anything and closed mine one day. When she found out months later (I was a friend on her account and she never noticed), she abruptly closed hers as well. She said she chose to do it and did it for me, and wanted nothing to do with FB anymore. I let her make the decision to cancel these accounts, as then it couldn't be used as a point of contention against me. Lo and behold, she still has it closed, but she pines for it many days and still tries to blame me for removing FB from her life even though I am not to blame.

Sorry to threadjack, but the point is, if you are willing to do it for him, then just do it and don't wait for him to ask. When the BS has to ask they don't feel as though they are cared about or for and the WS is just going through the motions so they can say "see what I have done for you!" Don't just say this, do things without being asked to show you are truly committed.


----------



## Memento

When there is true repent, there is redemption. I hope your husband can see beyond that chapter of your life. You are much more than that.


----------



## PamJ

<< Sorry to threadjack, but the point is, if you are willing to do it for him, then just do it and don't wait for him to ask. When the BS has to ask they don't feel as though they are cared about or for and the WS is just going through the motions so they can say "see what I have done for you!" Don't just say this, do things without being asked to show you are truly committed.[/QUOTE]

I agree, I had to ask my H to close his secret AOL accts that they used for texting/sexting. He said he was not using them, but just knowing they were there and were possible open lines to the OW bothered me. Logically I know he could still open a new one, many new ones, but these old ones were a source of pain for me. We closed them together but AOL is slow at doing that and it took more than a week for it to show up as closed- annoying.

He also did not block her cell # in his phone. He said she would not be contacting him again as she was worried about her H finding out as I promised I would do. 3 months later she texted him, he told me immediately, was surprised and unhappy she did and I told him I was going to block her as I was sick of the idea of her having that option anymore, which I did and he was fine with it.

It would have been much better had he thought to do these things himself.


----------



## BashfulB

You want answers to help you save your marriage. From what I see there is no marriage here. You and your husband are screw-ups, and I say that with all seriousness and sicerity in hope that you will understand what I mean. 

The two of you have both behaved horribly. You have transformed what should have been a mutually nurturing relationship into a convoluted, muddled mess that is worthy of a Jerry Springer episode. 

My suggestion is to start completetely over. File for an amicable and fair divorce. Put this marriage out of its misery. It is lost. Separate, live apart, but continue dating and courting one another while attending IC and MC apart and together. 

You each need to work on yourselves before this relationship can ever be called a marriage.


----------



## PamJ

<<My suggestion is to start completetely over. File for an amicable and fair divorce. Put this marriage out of its misery. It is lost. Separate, live apart, but continue dating and courting one another while attending IC and MC apart and together. >.

She asked for help in accomplishing the goal of keeping her marriage, for better or for worse. I think this is what we should address here. Her H may or may not accept any of it from her anyway, but this is what she is asking for.

If they do stay married, it will be a new marriage , it has to be, but it may not have to be divorce first. 

My H and I are staying together and, since the betrayal of the past makes it impossible to think of our past married life as good, we consider it a new marriage now, moving forward. I can't say I will not look back , but we are building on the good I see now.

It's possible if they both want it enough.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Acabado said:


> 1)This advice is no more than complete blameshifting BS.
> 2)Half of the marriage is a complete joke.
> 3)She could have left at the six years mark. Period.
> Why the hell is she so commited to keep the marriage alive if BH is a monster?
> 4)And scaring OP by predicting the way he's going to behave from now on in case he don't file for divorce is well...
> 5)This the the kind of post in which the lack of direct experience on infidelity get exposed, Plan 9.


1) I thought that what I stated was fair and accurate. Two people make a marriage work. When people behave poorly, there will be a reaction from the recipient of the poor treatment. Sometimes the reaction will be the morally acceptable and other times not. 

2) Half of the marriage could be a complete joke in his eyes, but I'd argue that the entire marriage was rotten for her. 

3) C'mon, are you really going to go there? She has kids with this man for one thing, and no one wants to become a part time parent. On top of that, it's not uncommon for people who are in abusive situations to not leave the abuser due to a protracted attack on the abused. We see battered spouses making excuses and defending their abusers enough in the news to know this is not an uncommon thing.

4) People make judgements about others in these forums all the time. Are you going to tell me that I can't make an educated guess about how things will turn out given what we know so far? Of course you'll respond with gaslighting by the OP. But why would she do that in a forum among anonymous strangers? 

5) I may not have experienced infidelity, but I have experienced 16 years of marriage. I think I do know a thing or two about what works - at least based on the dynamic between my spouse and I so far.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Healer said:


> Do you ever post anything that doesn't involve taking a dump on the BS?


I try to be as honest and consistent with my posting as possible. There are plenty of threads on here where the BS has been a good spouse but still was cheated on. But there are also examples of spouses that did not take the marriage seriously and were cheated on as a result. This does happen out there too.


----------



## badmemory

As was touched on earlier by Acoa, it's one thing to endure a marriage where there are marital issues primarily caused by one spouse. (Though we don't have the other side of that story). A wife always has the option to talk or walk. And if what she describes of him is accurate, who could blame her for choosing a D.

It's quite another thing to nuke a marriage with infidelity, because of marital issues. It's a moral failing by the CS. It simply can't be dismissed with a "you were an a-hole, I cheated, let's start all over". It's not even close to being equivalent.

The infidelity has to be dealt with first. The BS has to come to terms with it. "IF" that is possible, the BS then has an obligation to work on his/her marital issues, if R is to have any chance.

What I've seen with other BS's in R, including myself, is that that the shock and trauma of the betrayal can cause the BS to look at their own behavior closer; especially if the CS is demonstrating remorse, kindness and meeting the BS's needs. This can effect the BS positively and affect his own behavior. Then a "new" marriage is possible.

OP, in your case, first things first. If you have the chance to R, give him some time to deal with the betrayal. But he shouldn't get a free pass to continue being abusive or neglectful.


----------



## frustratedinphx

Thank you all for your honesty. Our marriage went south about 3 years in, after the birth of our first child. We had patches before that but I assumed that was normal barbecues that's what our parents told us. When he became verbally abusive, I withdrew initially because I was hurt and then I tried to "fix it". Tried to do what I thought he wanted me to, get his favorite ice cream, not nag, not complain, etc. We would argue about everything and nothing at all. It got so bad and I felt so alone, I just didn't know what to do next. When the A started, initially it was me confiding in a friend. When it became more, I just longed for the companionship. Yes I should have kept focusing on him, but I couldn't get him to focus on us.

While the A was going on, I tried to keep making it work. At some point, i insisted on date night and I think that put us on the right path. Our 2nd vacation alone (more than 1 night) was for our 10th anniversary. By then, we really were truly in love again. He took care of me, I took care of him and i was pregnant with our 3rd baby. OM was completely out of the picture other than a platonic/business relationship (I tried to gain marketing advice for my business from him and bartered by giving him my real estate advice). 

I usually end relationships on a good note, just because that's the way I am, regardless of the circumstances. Eventually, before BS found out, I quit even trying to have any kind of friendship or relationship with him because I wanted nothing to do to him. 

Eventually, we had the marriage that I always wanted. I've been trying to apologize- the entire from DD1 (6/14) & DD2- (yesterday 7/8), and show him that I do love him and want to try to rebuild what we recently had. It wasn't perfect, but it was ours. He's very hurt that it went on for as long as it did. He was willing to work it out when he thought it was 2 years intermittent chatting and 2 physical meetings. Not what the truth was- 5 yrs of intermittent chatting and 6 physical meetings. I agree it's asinine that I did it for that long. It felt like a freight train that I couldn't get off of. Yes, no one held a gun to my head, but that's how it felt. It was kind of like my drug- I don't drink, smoke or do drugs but it made me feel so good, not that it's any excuse. I own my bad choices. I'm not trying to minimize anything. It was just awful what I did.

BS now won't talk to me- we're texting. I've asked him to talk to me, he says to have my attorney talk to his attorneys. I think all of you are probably right that he's never going to forgive me and file for divorce. I will never give up hope that we can work it out.

I'm trying to delete my instant messenger account that I used to talk to the OM, but I've had a free account for years that can't be deleted the same way that regular accounts can. I've blocked him from emailing me, but we never emailed. I've unfriended him and blocked him from Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter and Skype. I keep those accounts for business too so I can't completely delete them. I'm not really using any of those account now for anything. I just kind of went dark.

Even though we had issues before that were never truly resolved, we had moved on for the better I thought. He thinks that this recent period that was good was based on a lie. It wasn't a lie in that I wasn't with OM then and I meant everything I said and did, but I was not honest about what I did in the past. I completely own my actions and am willing to come clean and apologize to his family. But if he won't talk to me, there's nothing I can do. I'm so sad.


----------



## SoulStorm

frustratedinphx said:


> Even though we had issues before that were never truly resolved, we had moved on for the better I thought. *He thinks that this recent period that was good was based on a lie. It wasn't a lie in that I wasn't with OM then and I meant everything I said and did, but I was not honest about what I did in the past.* I completely own my actions and am willing to come clean and apologize to his family. But if he won't talk to me, there's nothing I can do. I'm so sad.


It. Was. A. Lie. and it was based on lies. 
You keep making excuses..then saying there is no excuse.
Anything he did to you did not warrant you having a 5 year long affair. Then lie about it when confronted. Affairs ends marriages, and wherewithal, it is the lies that truly devastate it beyond reconciliation.
This man will never trust you again and he knows that.
He is thinking if I can't trust her, why should I be with her?
You say he was verbally abusive and never called you pretty or spent time with you.
These could have been worked out with lots of patience and willing cooperation once he saw how much he was really hurting you.
You are wrong...dead wrong and no matter how many times you say how bad a husband he was..it will never justify what you did...you keep giving "reasons" why..there is never a reason why.
It's a selfish and apathetic act. A selfish and apathetic act for 5 years.
I don't think he will come back..the other shoe just dropped for him.
You're probably still in shock, that's why you can't cry, but once the reality hits you that it's over (and believe me, when a man does what he is doing..he's done)The tears will come.


----------



## awake1

frustratedinphx said:


> Tried to do what I thought he wanted me to, get his favorite ice cream, not nag, *not complain*, etc. We would argue about everything and nothing at all.


I have a feeling that there is an entire other side to this story. The reason I think that is the rest of your post has a lot of blame shifting in it.



frustratedinphx said:


> While the A was going on, I tried to keep making it work. At some point, i insisted on date night and I think that put us on the right path. Our 2nd vacation alone (more than 1 night) was for our 10th anniversary. By then, we really were truly in love again. He took care of me, I took care of him and i was pregnant with our 3rd baby. OM was completely out of the picture other than a platonic/business relationship (I tried to gain marketing advice for my business from him and bartered by giving him my real estate advice).
> 
> I usually end relationships on a good note, just because that's the way I am, regardless of the circumstances. Eventually, before BS found out, I quit even trying to have any kind of friendship or relationship with him because I wanted nothing to do to him.


You don't like the guy, you want nothing to do with him. Okay. But why use him? You kept him around to take advantage of whatever he offered. (A babysitter, support, financial help. I don't know the story but he was contributing SOMETHING.) This other man gave you passion or excitement. Your husband was what? An ATM or live in babysitter?



frustratedinphx said:


> Eventually, we had the marriage that I always wanted.


What about the marriage your husband wanted? I don't know him but i'll guess his idea of marriage doesn't involve 5 years of cheating.



frustratedinphx said:


> I've been trying to apologize- the entire from DD1 (6/14) & DD2- (yesterday 7/8), and show him that I do love him and want to try to rebuild what we recently had. It wasn't perfect, but it was ours. He's very hurt that it went on for as long as it did. He was willing to work it out when he thought it was 2 years intermittent chatting and 2 physical meetings. Not what the truth was- 5 yrs of intermittent chatting and 6 physical meetings. I agree it's asinine that I did it for that long. It felt like a freight train that I couldn't get off of. Yes, no one held a gun to my head, but that's how it felt. It was kind of like my drug- I don't drink, smoke or do drugs but it made me feel so good, not that it's any excuse. I own my bad choices. I'm not trying to minimize anything. It was just awful what I did.


So you got to be half single, and now you're ready to settle down. What kind of assurance can you give your BS that you're serious? 


frustratedinphx said:


> BS now won't talk to me- we're texting. I've asked him to talk to me, he says to have my attorney talk to his attorneys. I think all of you are probably right that he's never going to forgive me and file for divorce. I will never give up hope that we can work it out.


Honestly, I'd bet your talking to the OM either now or will soon. In my experience i've seen WWs jump right back at him. DO NOT DO THIS. If your betrayed husband decides he wants to get back together and finds out you started talking to OM again, that'll probably be it right there. 


frustratedinphx said:


> I'm trying to delete my instant messenger account that I used to talk to the OM, but I've had a free account for years that can't be deleted the same way that regular accounts can. I've blocked him from emailing me, but we never emailed. I've unfriended him and blocked him from Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter and Skype. I keep those accounts for business too so I can't completely delete them. I'm not really using any of those account now for anything. I just kind of went dark.


Thats good, did you offer your BH access to all these? Even though he'd probably say he isn't interested, might be worth a shot.


frustratedinphx said:


> Even though we had issues before that were never truly resolved, we had moved on for the better I thought.


No no no. no. You piled lies on lies. It only got worse, not better. 


frustratedinphx said:


> He thinks that this recent period that was good was based on a lie.


Half your marriage was based on lies. Lies by omission are still lies. 

Cheating on your spouse is not a marriage. At all. Marriage is not based on whether you aren't having sex with someone else that month. It's based on a vow you took at the start. 

Once broken, that's it. 



frustratedinphx said:


> It wasn't a lie in that I wasn't with OM then and I meant everything I said and did, but I was not honest about what I did in the past. I completely own my actions and am willing to come clean and apologize to his family.* But if he won't talk to me*, there's nothing I can do. I'm so sad.


That's not true. Individual Counseling is a good idea. Do this and show him you're doing it. That's my advice.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

frustratedinphx said:


> While the A was going on, I tried to keep making it work. At some point, i insisted on date night and I think that put us on the right path. Our 2nd vacation alone (more than 1 night) was for our 10th anniversary. *By then, we really were truly in love again. *He took care of me, I took care of him and i was pregnant with our 3rd baby. OM was completely out of the picture other than a platonic/business relationship (I tried to gain marketing advice for my business from him and bartered by giving him my real estate advice).


He is going to have a hard time with this. If you were so in love with him, why keep up with the affair? By your own admission, the OM was not really out of the picture at conception (let's face it, the fact that you had not slept with him for the two months prior is not much of a comfort). So how do you reconcile that, because he is going to need to know.

Also, you mention the conception of your third child, but the age of your second calls paternity into question as well. Test all of them to give your husband peace of mind.



> He was willing to work it out when he thought it was 2 years intermittent chatting and 2 physical meetings. Not what the truth was- 5 yrs of intermittent chatting and 6 physical meetings.


While that may be the reason, it may also be because you lied yet again to him. You got caught, lied, then got caught again. So this is not him not being able to handle the truth, this is him not believing that you have told the truth, or that you would have without him catching you. In essence, you appear to be remorseful because you got caught not because you did it. You need to own that.



> Even though we had issues before that were never truly resolved, we had moved on for the better I thought. He thinks that this recent period that was good was based on a lie. *It wasn't a lie in that I wasn't with OM then and I meant everything I said and did, *but I was not honest about what I did in the past. I completely own my actions and am willing to come clean and apologize to his family. But if he won't talk to me, there's nothing I can do. I'm so sad.


Why should he believe you? You lied in the past, you lied up until a couple of weeks ago. Why should he think you are not lying now? That is your task.


----------



## SoulStorm

*Why should he believe you? You lied in the past, you lied up until a couple of weeks ago.*

Actually she lied up until yesterday


----------



## awake1

Plan 9 from OS said:


> 1) I thought that what I stated was fair and accurate. Two people make a marriage work. When people behave poorly, there will be a reaction from the recipient of the poor treatment. Sometimes the reaction will be the morally acceptable and other times not.


The tone came off that you were making excuses. I think you're coming at it from the wrong angle. 


Plan 9 from OS said:


> 2) Half of the marriage could be a complete joke in his eyes, but I'd argue that the entire marriage was rotten for her.


Based on her side of the story and someone who blame shifts im not so sure. Normally I'd say go by the word of the poster, but in this case, by the OPs own words, the BH complained she nagged. 

So what do you do if you need justification to cheat? Just as many WSs do, you nag, and nag and nag until the other person reacts in anger. Once done you say "wow you're such a jerk." And then you have your justification. If you really go the extra mile, you keep it up until the other person reacts more. 

I've seen this first hand many times. (not in my own relationship, but someone elses.) 



Plan 9 from OS said:


> 5) I may not have experienced infidelity, but I have experienced 16 years of marriage. I think I do know a thing or two about what works - at least based on the dynamic between my spouse and I so far.


I was abused and cheated on. 

I have no idea what works in marriage. I do know what doesn't work though. I have a PHD in that. 

The op said she cheated because she felt nothing for her spouse. Then added "But he was a jerk, so there" as a way to justify her behavior. 

This sounds a lot like someone who fished for reasons to excuse the action.


----------



## awake1

SoulStorm said:


> *Why should he believe you? You lied in the past, you lied up until a couple of weeks ago.*
> 
> Actually she lied up until yesterday


I didn't even realize, nice eye!


----------



## badmemory

OP,

I almost cringe when I see a CS post and they list a litany of marital issues, then say these aren't excuses. I know they're gonna get skewered. And that makes me feel bad, because I hope you have a chance to R - if you are TRULY remorseful and that's what your husband wants.

So, even if you really believe they're not excuses, you'd be better served to leave them out of your explanations. At best they are your subconscious rationalization or a plea for sympathy. At worst you actually do believe they're reasons for your cheating. 

In fact, the practice of not mentioning them will help you learn to disassociate them. That can only help if you are able to R with your husband. Because, believe me, he doesn't need to hear them.

That said, you can always find a counselor not experienced with infidelity, or another forum, or a friend, or a family member who will buy into them. But what you're dealing with here are mostly people who have gone through this and know what they're talking about. You need to change your mindset.


----------



## PamJ

<<He thinks that this recent period that was good was based on a lie. It wasn't a lie in that I wasn't with OM then and I meant everything I said and did, but I was not honest about what I did in the past>>

My WH lied to me, by omission, about picking up with his OW again during the year in which I thought we were in R. His memory of the year is still intact as wonderful, we were getting along great, we were communicating, having fun, enjoying each other's company, walking, biking, seeing movies, dining out, dating again. 

Now MY memory of the 'wonderful' year is shattered by his deceit and betrayal again. He tries to convince me it was still good, but it is MY perception that it is not. He used a picture I took of him on one of our long bike trips, smiling at me with the camera as a profile picture to set up a new secret AOL acct to text/sext with her again and he still has no conception of how that makes me feel. A picture I took on a beautiful happy day, now gone forever.

It WAS a lie that you were in R , because it was one sided. HE didn't have all the facts, HE didn't know the entirety of what he had forgiven you for. It was ALL a lie. Wishing it weren't doesn't make it so.

You have a very steep uphill battle here and as someone else said above, If I were you, I would not even try to defend yourself with the 'reasons' things were so bad before. It won't work for you now.


----------



## Acabado

He just got dropped the real bomb, he first was a grenade.
Take the actions I suggested.


----------



## Shaggy

You've now burned him multiple times, a 5 year affair, and didn't tell him the truth when caught.

You've destroyed your credibility entirely with him.

And your in business with a guy you cheated with and who has twice tried to black mail you?


Advice:

1. Show your husband you have no remaining loyalty to the OM by - exposing his cheating to any women his life. - post him up on cheaterville.com

2. Take and pass a polygraph

3. Offer him an uncontested favorable divorce. He may not go through with it.

4. Sign a postnuptial 

5. DNA tests on all your kids

But I suggest you come to terms with the hard reality that you had a five year affair, one that even overlapped with conceiving a child. You utterly betrayed him for half a decade, and the majority of your marriage, it's very likely he will never be able to be with you again, and if he is, he will never trust you.


----------



## LongWalk

FP,

Amazing that you came back to TAM after so many years. You had not yet had two of your children when you explained how you were unhappily considering striking out on your own a single parent. Your were uncertain because of the economic difficulties.

If you had stayed on TAM things might of turned out differently. Once your affair started did you come back and read TAM? TAM CWI usually tells cheaters to fess up and take their medicine. I am not sure that confession is always the best, but in your case the affair was long and the trail could not be concealed. Your husband is technically savvy. Must have been horrible to think that even when you were trying to eliminate tracks, you were making new ones.

Philosophically, you had an affair that you thought was helping you to survive in your marriage, but it was too deep. It was an important parallel relationship. That's a huge plate of icy cold mashed potatoes that no one would want eat. The trickle truth plopped out like lump of solidified gravy.

Is there anyway that this can be microwaved so that your husband will eat it? Isn't he always going to consider your marriage as a catastrophe that wrecked his life? You have reasons for resentment, too. Why didn't you stand up to him when he verbally abused you and called you a piece of shı†. That was grounds for divorce back then.

My advice: Write a simple heartfelt letter telling your husband that underneath the lying cheater there is another woman, a better one. Unfortunately, those two women are intertwined. You are working to put the lying cheater in her place and keep her there.

I would clip out the TAM entry from 2007 and share it with your husband. Make a clean paper copy, indicating the source. Provide the URL link. Let your husband realize you have started a new thread. Let him read about the process you are going through.

Put up the timeline in detail. When it comes to the sex details that have no place here (except for fun, haha, gotta laugh sometimes or you won't survive) just write. You should offer to tell your husband in detail in writing or in person without reserve if he wishes it. You can set up a Google shared document to do that.

All of this horrible detail makes things better and/or worse for betrayed spouses. But your situation is so poor that you have nothing to lose by being completely open. I think sharing your most intimate feelings from the affair is a way of exposing it so that you do not have good memories of it that he does not know about.

If while you undertake this, you feel it's too much work and the price is too high, then you know that you should give up and just divorce as cleanly as possible.

As to divorce, you should just work with your husband now. Divide your assets fairly. Seek the standard level of spousal support/child support. Do not concede anything in negotiations, but always keep it civil.

On the shared Google document – the journal, which your husband may disdain to read – you can share feelings. You can write there that you want to date your husband.

Don't make your children the message bearers. Nobody needs a guilt trip via the little ones who are paying a price for what you have done. Your husband also bears responsibility for the state of your marriage, but that is something that he needs to understand on his own.

You will have opportunities to meet when exchanging your children. Men are weak when it comes to food. He may refuse to sit down and eat dinner with you in your new place. Don't stop trying. If they are all piling into his car, you can always have nice sandwiches for them to take on the road.

Maybe one of your children will pull the fourth sandwich and say: "Look, Daddy, Mommy made one for you." Maybe he'll whisper to himself cheating bı†ch and take a bite.

You want to be dignified and remorseful. It can be a real turn off if a WW uses sex to rugsweep. But you can write in you shared document diary about how you longed for him to stay the night instead of driving straight off. Hysterical bonding doesn't always work and it is ironic that sex, the place where you made a mistake, is also the repair ground. Men can feel a big desire to give the cheating bıtch good punishment in bed.

It hurt you that he gave back the watch. Maybe you should buy a divorce watch to replace it, one of those Swiss ones, e.g., an Oris, that a crystal back so that you can see all the works spin round. A metaphor for transparency. Arrange with jeweler that he can exchange it or just get the money back. Doesn't have to be an expensive model.

You managed two relationships and put effort and devious creativity into one of them. Now you need to:

1) survive so that you can be a good parent
2) put in reasonable effort to reach out to your husband. Once you are divorced that can still go on for a period. If he forms new relationships, you'll have to give up at some point.


----------



## Wazza

Frustrated, a lot of the advice you are getting is good.

The most important thing now is to give your husband the complete truth. Why?

Well right now he wonders if everything was a lie. He cannot believe your word, because you have been caught out in "complete" confessions that left out significant details. So if you throw yourself on your sword and tell him EVERYTHING then that gives a chance of rebuilding trust.

I cannot tell you whether he will take that chance...some guys do, others don't. 

But I am fairly sure that if you start to reconcile again, and then more stuff comes out, it will be even worse than it was this time.

Beyond that, the ball is totally in his court. There is nothing you can do unless he chooses to try. And even if he does try it will be hard.

You know....the idea that you were working on the marriage while you were having an affair....you need to think about that. Was your heart not the tiniest bit torn between your husband and OM?


----------



## Suspecting

frustratedinphx said:


> One major thing he really struggled with is that as we were trying to conceive our third child and this was when the A was ending. There was a little overlap with the last time I slept with OM and when we were trying to conceive but absolutely no possibility that our baby is OMs. She was conceived in June and the last physical contact with OM was in March.


This I don't understand. Can you elaborate what went through in your mind when you slept with the OM and yet at the same time tried to make a baby with your husband? I guess you didn't use protection with the OM and let him ejaculate inside you?


----------



## BashfulB

Man o man. I'm simply astonished at some of the stories I read on this forum.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

BashfulBull said:


> Man o man. I'm simply astonished at some of the stories I read on this forum.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


After you read for awhile, you'll realize that this is all common. We are not prepared for the truth. We believe a lot of myths about a marriage that are less true because society is changing.

Cheating by men is 57% for men and 54% for women according to one recent study.

Even the Kinsey study from the 40s when things were stricter put female infidelity at 25%

Are 50% of the people evil?

Humans are not wired to be faithful. Takes a lot of work. But laws and economics are set up for something else


----------



## frustratedinphx

My husband set up the majority of my accounts (email, facebook, instant messenger, etc.). If he didn't set them up, he knows all of my universal passwords so, I've never hidden any of this info from him. I used to have his but really don't know them any more and that was fine with me. I didn't really use any of my social media accounts to communicate with OM. The primary people I chat with in instant messenger is BS and my brother. I used to use it with my assistants for work, but I no longer have assistants so it's unnecessary. I'm using it now solely for communicating with BS.

I have had absolutely no contact with the OM and never intend to again, regardless of what happens. I want nothing to do to him. I also have no momentos of the OM who lives in another state. I once had a picture of he and a friend of mine long before the EA/PA but deleted it too. I looked into blocking his number but with AT&T it's expensive to do. So I made any notifications of him contacting me as silent and changed his ring tone to a version that i can barely hear so if he's stupid enough to contact me, he'll never get me.

I have no idea why I let it go on so long. I'm dumbstruck at it because toward the end last 2 yrs, we argued more than not. The 2 times I saw him in those 2 years, it was not fun at all. I think I longed for the sweet talk I got in the beginning. I actually remember thinking to myself, if I'm going to put up with this crap, I can get that from my husband, but I still saw him those 2 times. I'm such an idiot.

The reason I never left is because of my kids and the strong expectations of staying together. My parents and his have been married 40+ years each. My grandparents were married for 65+ years and his I believe were the same. I found out a few years back that my grandfather strayed and had a son out of wedlock but my grandmother stayed- that's what you were supposed to do, so I was led to believe. That divorce is not an option. And my friends who had divorces never seemed happy afterward. It was the means to an end, but necessarily the means to happiness.

I've had STD tests- that comes with being pregnant and nothing came back. I used condoms all but one time with the OM and have no idea what went through my head the one time I didn't, but that was a long time ago. We could have paternity tests, but I was pregnant with my 2nd by the time the EA started. 

As for the 3rd, I was anovulatory (no period or very irregular) when we initially tried to conceive. The last time we had physical contact (3/2012), it was completely protected with a condom and OM liked to ejaculate outside of me anyway. So I never had a doubt that she was BSs. In fact, I have an app on my phone that shows the day I ovulated and subsequent days we had sex so, there is really no doubt. But I did offer to do paternity testing anyway. Otherwise the time before that I saw OM was 4/2011. I saw him on 7 occasions from the start of the EA in 2008. There was no sex until 2009 and from that point, those encounters numbered 6 times. We attempted to arrange other meetings but one or both of us chickened out or flaked so they never happened.

I've offered to do a polygraph, but I don't know if it will help. Because it went on for so long, there are little details that I just don't remember. Apparently I sent OM some of my pain meds after a surgery, but have absolutely no recollection of doing so, but because it was discussed in an online chat, I have to assume it happened so I look like a liar again when questioned about it.

I will try the apology letter. If/when he's ready to read it he can. I did show him my posts from years ago when I joined the forum. He wouldn't read them but I read some of them to him and showed him how to search for them using my handle and the search function. I also wrote one letter after DD1 and gave him another yesterday. I also found the picture of his OW from Brazil when I intercepted his EA where she was naked but nothing was showing and included that. I asked him if it was really just flirting and he said he kissed her- that he told me then, but it honestly was news to me. Not that it matters now. He also says he wished he fvcked her. I told him the only thing that didn't make it physical was 1) that I found out and 2) that his deal went south so he didn't have the opportunity to make it so. Again, not that it matters.

I'm not trying to justify my actions to him in any way. There is no excuse for what I did. I realize that. I'm only trying to apologize and take my medicine- whatever it may be. BS goes from numb to complete anger and back. Last night he wanted me gone- to move out immediately and go to my brother's house. I started packing to go but my mom called him because she thought it was excessive to want me gone so fast considering we have the kids (they have been talking/texting) apparently. 

After everything last night, he decided I could stay so I just tried to stay out of his way. Prior to that he'd been following me trying to speed me up and get me out. When I was getting ready for bed, he hugged me in the kitchen. A long hug. I hugged him for as long as I could, but one of our kids was up and walking around so we had to deal with that. We finally got him to bed and I went to talk to him in our room. I asked if I could hug him again (he said yes or he didn't care so I did) and tried to just talk a little bit. I asked him if he wanted me to do anything for him. I'm trying to make sure he eats because he's hypoglycemic and his last episode was a month ago while he was away on business. He had to be taken to a hospital via ambulance. So I don't want it to happen again.

He hasn't to this point told his family, I suspect so that if there is any R it won't villanize me- that's what he told me after DDay. He is really struggling and informed me that he is telling his family today to get the support he needs. Obviously my mom is going to be impartial because there is no way she can excuse what I did, but she is MY mom so there is an obvious conflict of interest. I will call his family after he does to apologize to them to for the damage I've done.

Yesterday BS said he would go after me and take our kids and that he wanted primary physical custody of our 2 oldest kids. I have a very hard time with this because I don't want to split up our kids but I don't want to fight him and make this difficult for them. So I want to cooperate as best I can. I asked if we could co parent and he said yes but he would be the primary and I would have 49% or less. He said he would personally make this a very nasty divorce, which isn't what I want in any way. 

At this point the ball is in his court. He's trying to reach out to me to talk, I think. I will do that for him regardless of whether he's just lonely and hurting or whether there is a chance for R. I just want him to be happy- with or without me. He deserves that. I deserve whatever I get at this point and am trying to make my peace with that.

Thank you again everyone for your honesty. He came into my room before to ask what I was doing and I told him I was responding to all of you. I have been typing since then and he just came into my room where again and left, presumably because our 8yo was asking him questions. He came back and told me that he told his sister and her husband had that they were blown away and thought leaving me was the right thing to do. So I'm sure that's the end of it. I don't know that I couldn't give anyone else the same advice. I'm truly disgusted with myself.


----------



## Acabado

I'm skipping the rest of the post. I'm sure many other BSs won't agree with me in this.
I wouldn't renounce to 50-50 custody of my kids under any circunstance. No way.
Let him to calm down, keep reaching out, reasuring. You might have a slim chance, play well your cards.


----------



## BashfulB

I'm not bashing you. The part I just cannot wrap my head around is how you could have sex with another man while pregnant with your husband's child. You don't come across as a sleazy person but my gosh. That right there is going to be something your husband would a monumental effort getting over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedinphx

I did NOT have sex while I was pregnant! NO WAY!!! I could never bring myself to do that, which is just plain sleazy. Where in my posts does it say that???


----------



## BashfulB

frustratedinphx said:


> I did NOT have sex while I was pregnant! NO WAY!!! I could never bring myself to do that, which is just plain sleazy. Where in my posts does it say that???


Um, I'm sorry I thought I read that. If I'm mistaken ignore me. Guess I should go back and read it again.


----------



## ianos

Acabado said:


> Let him to calm down, keep reaching out, reasuring. You might have a slim chance, play well your cards.


i have to agree with you probably on of the best advice so far.


----------



## Suspecting

frustratedinphx said:


> I did NOT have sex while I was pregnant! NO WAY!!! I could never bring myself to do that, which is just plain sleazy. Where in my posts does it say that???


It was probably misunderstood from my post but you didn't answer it so here is the quote again which is confusing and indicates you had sex with the OM while trying to have a baby with your husband (the bolded part):


frustratedinphx said:


> One major thing he really struggled with is that as we were trying to conceive our third child and this was when the A was ending. *There was a little overlap with the last time I slept with OM and when we were trying to conceive* but absolutely no possibility that our baby is OMs. She was conceived in June and the last physical contact with OM was in March.


Did I misunderstand it or doesn't that mean you had sex with both of them at some point?


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

frustratedinphx said:


> I have had absolutely no contact with the OM and never intend to again, regardless of what happens. I want nothing to do to him. *I also have no momentos of the OM who lives in another state. I once had a picture of he and a friend of mine long before the EA/PA but deleted it too.*
> Five long yrs of cheating and you dont have anything else other than a picture of him taken yrs before your EA?PA..REALLY?
> 
> *I looked into blocking his number but with AT&T it's expensive to do. So I made any notifications of him contacting me as silent and changed his ring tone to a version that i can barely hear so if he's stupid enough to contact me, he'll never get me.*
> 
> :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> 
> *I have no idea why I let it go on so long*. Because you wanted to, because you enjoyed the fun and excitement of having fun on your husbands back.
> 
> I'm dumbstruck at it because toward the end last 2 yrs, we argued more than not. The 2 times I saw him in those 2 years, it was not fun at all. I think I longed for the sweet talk I got in the beginning. I actually remember thinking to myself, if I'm going to put up with this crap, I can get that from my husband, but I still saw him those 2 times. I'm such an idiot.
> 
> The reason I never left is because of my kids and the strong expectations of staying together. My parents and his have been married 40+ years each. My grandparents were married for 65+ years and his I believe were the same. I found out a few years back that my grandfather strayed and had a son out of wedlock but my grandmother stayed- that's what you were supposed to do, so I was led to believe. T*hat divorce is not an option. And my friends who had divorces never seemed happy afterward. It was the means to an end, but necessarily the means to happiness.*
> 
> SSo you dont want a D, you want your husband to get over it and play lovey dovey with you as your grand mother did.
> 
> I've had STD tests- that comes with being pregnant and nothing came back. I used condoms all but one time with the OM and have no idea what went through my head the one time I didn't, but that was a long time ago. *We could have paternity tests, but I was pregnant with my 2nd by the time the EA started. *
> So you dont want to conduct a paternity test, are you really scared?
> As for the 3rd, I was anovulatory (no period or very irregular) when we initially tried to conceive. The last time we had physical contact (3/2012), *it was completely protected with a condom and OM liked to ejaculate outside of me anyway.*
> 
> :rofl::rofl:
> So I never had a doubt that she was BSs. In fact, I have an app on my phone that shows the day I ovulated and subsequent days we had sex so, there is really no doubt. *But I did offer to do paternity testing anyway.* Just do it.Otherwise the time before that I saw OM was 4/2011. I saw him on 7 occasions from the start of the EA in 2008. There was no sex until 2009 and from that point, those encounters numbered 6 times. We attempted to arrange other meetings but one or both of us chickened out or flaked so they never happened.
> 
> *I've offered to do a polygraph, but I don't know if it will help. Because it went on for so long, there are little details that I just don't remember.* Another excuse for not doing Polygraph and you want to play it as you dont rememeberd if you fail the polygraph. Apparently I sent OM some of my pain meds after a surgery, but have absolutely no recollection of doing so, but because it was discussed in an online chat, I have to assume it happened so I look like a liar again when questioned about it.
> 
> I will try the apology letter. If/when he's ready to read it he can. *I did show him my posts from years ago when I joined the forum. He wouldn't read them but I read some of them to him and showed him how to search for them using my handle and the search function.*
> *Are you here for advice or hoping that your BS will read your post?*
> 
> 
> I also wrote one letter after DD1 and gave him another yesterday. *I also found the picture of his OW from Brazil when I intercepted his EA where she was naked but nothing was showing and included that*. *I asked him if it was really just flirting and he said he kissed her- that he told me then, but it honestly was news to me*. Not that it matters now. He also says he wished he fvcked her. *I told him the only thing that didn't make it physical was 1) that I found out and 2) that his deal went south so he didn't have the opportunity to make it so. *Again, *not that it matters.*
> 
> 
> *You seems too much manipulative. Are you trying to make your %yr cheating even with his EA for a week? I think you are.*
> 
> 
> I'm not trying to justify my actions to him in any way.* There is no excuse for what I did.* I realize that. I'm only trying to apologize and take my medicine- whatever it may be. BS goes from numb to complete anger and back. Last night he wanted me gone- to move out immediately and go to my brother's house. I started packing to go but my mom called him because she thought it was excessive to want me gone so fast considering we have the kids (they have been talking/texting) apparently.
> 
> After everything last night, he decided I could stay so I just tried to stay out of his way. Prior to that he'd been following me trying to speed me up and get me out. When I was getting ready for bed, he hugged me in the kitchen. A long hug. I hugged him for as long as I could, but one of our kids was up and walking around so we had to deal with that. We finally got him to bed and I went to talk to him in our room. I asked if I could hug him again (he said yes or he didn't care so I did) and tried to just talk a little bit. I asked him if he wanted me to do anything for him. I'm trying to make sure he eats because he's hypoglycemic and his last episode was a month ago while he was away on business. He had to be taken to a hospital via ambulance. So I don't want it to happen again.
> 
> He hasn't to this point told his family, I suspect so that if there is any R it won't villanize me- that's what he told me after DDay. He is really struggling and informed me that he is telling his family today to get the support he needs. Obviously my mom is going to be impartial because there is no way she can excuse what I did, but she is MY mom so there is an obvious conflict of interest. I will call his family after he does to apologize to them to for the damage I've done.
> 
> Yesterday BS said he would go after me and take our kids and that he wanted primary physical custody of our 2 oldest kids. I have a very hard time with this because *I don't want to split up our kids*:scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:
> but I don't want to fight him and make this difficult for them. So I want to cooperate as best I can. I asked if we could co parent and he said yes but he would be the primary and I would have 49% or less. He said he would personally make this a very nasty divorce, which isn't what I want in any way.
> 
> At this point the ball is in his court. He's trying to reach out to me to talk, I think. I will do that for him regardless of whether he's just lonely and hurting or whether there is a chance for R. I just want him to be happy- with or without me. He deserves that. *I deserve whatever I get at this point and am trying to make my peace with that.* self pity?
> 
> Thank you again everyone for your honesty. He came into my room before to ask what I was doing and I told him I was responding to all of you. I have been typing since then and he just came into my room where again and left, presumably because our 8yo was asking him questions. He came back and told me that he told his sister and her husband had that they were blown away and thought leaving me was the right thing to do. So I'm sure that's the end of it. I don't know that I couldn't give anyone else the same advice. *I'm truly disgusted with myself*.


 self pity? Are you here for advice or hoping that your BS will read your post?



I still didn't get why you wanted your monster husband back so eagerly? 

Stop thinking that you can woo him back into the dead marriage by manipulating him or making him even with you.

If you wanted him back Be truthful to yourself first, then to your husband.
Stop playing self pity, own your crap, stop blame shifting and do the hard work and heavy lifting. Do the paternity test and give him the result (Please dont throw it away if the child is OMs).


----------



## alte Dame

This is a reaction just for you, OP. I actually do feel sorry for you because you seem like a person who reacts and floats along with things rather than someone who carefully plans and takes control. You've floated along in a lot of very bad ways. You don't even know why you stayed with an AP for 2 years out of a 5-yr. affair.

I will go against the tide here by saying that I think too much is too much. There are some posters here who have managed reconciliation after very long affairs, but, as I understand it, they didn't deal with the lying that you have inflicted on your H. The lies are very bad for any chance for reconciliation.

I think you should come completely clean, make the timeline, etc., and then give your H a divorce. End the soap opera now and take control of a more honorable life, starting now.

This is a true mess and you have my sympathy. For me, the hardest part is that you have brought this pain on your husband. You sound like a caring person and this is not a cross I would ever want to bear.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

I don't know what the future holds for the two of you, but I hope it works out for the best. 

I'm a little surprised that no one really picked up with the fact that the BS in this was having at a minimum an EA of his own with a hot Brazilian woman. Granted I can understand the idea of a revenge affair, and he may be entitled to it to a certain extent. But doing so, IMHO, makes the situation more complicated plus changes the dynamic to the point that both of them have heaped garbage upon this marriage.


----------



## PamJ

<<I'm a little surprised that no one really picked up with the fact that the BS in this was having at a minimum an EA of his own with a hot Brazilian woman. Granted I can understand the idea of a revenge affair, and he may be entitled to it to a certain extent. But doing so, IMHO, makes the situation more complicated plus changes the dynamic to the point that both of them have heaped garbage upon this marriage >>

That's why I chose only to respond to her request for help trying to save the marriage. That is her goal. There is too much history for anyone here to 'fix' it, but we can guide her on what she needs to do to reach her goal, whether it is possible or not. In that regard, I wish her luck, neither of them are perfect, who is. There is still a slim chance they could stay together though.


----------



## BashfulB

PamJ said:


> <<I'm a little surprised that no one really picked up with the fact that the BS in this was having at a minimum an EA of his own with a hot Brazilian woman. Granted I can understand the idea of a revenge affair, and he may be entitled to it to a certain extent. But doing so, IMHO, makes the situation more complicated plus changes the dynamic to the point that both of them have heaped garbage upon this marriage >>
> 
> That's why I chose only to respond to her request for help trying to save the marriage. That is her goal. There is too much history for anyone here to 'fix' it, but we can guide her on what she needs to do to reach her goal, whether it is possible or not. In that regard, I wish her luck, neither of them are perfect, who is. There is still a slim chance they could stay together though.


That's why I recommended divorcing but staying together and doing counseling while they re-build the relationship. Just because the marriage is put out of its misery doesn't mean the relationship has to end. In fact it could become better. People get re-married all the time.


----------



## sinnister

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I don't know what the future holds for the two of you, but I hope it works out for the best.
> 
> I'm a little surprised that no one really picked up with the fact that the BS in this was having at a minimum an EA of his own with a hot Brazilian woman. Granted I can understand the idea of a revenge affair, and he may be entitled to it to a certain extent. But doing so, IMHO, makes the situation more complicated plus changes the dynamic to the point that both of them have heaped garbage upon this marriage.


I picked up on it. I think it speaks to the horrible state that the marriage was in, further validating OP's description.

Either way OP, I hope you guys can work it out, but you have to prepare for the eventuality that the marriage is over. A 5 year long affair is....just not forgiveable for most.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Kallan Pavithran said:


> self pity? Are you here for advice or hoping that your BS will read your post?


This is EXACTLY what I thought was going on when she said that she told her BS that she was posting on here.

He's real tech savvy and she knows it.

He seems very smart also, so I imagine even if he did read this thread, he wouldn't take anything that she says here as the 100% truth.

Once burned, twice shy.


----------



## InlandTXMM

Let me finish reading before I respond, but this struck me:



frustratedinphx said:


> At some point, he expressed feelings for me, I had had a little crush on him. He lives in another state (6+ hours drive away), but *one thing led to another *and it became an EA and then a PA that went on and off for 5 years.


I have heard that phrase time and time again from women, especially women who stray. It is a form of self-protection from having to face the fact that they chose at every step of the way to engage in bad behavior. One thing did NOT lead to another without a conscious decision to take it there. But this passive phrase gives the cheater a really soft landing for their behavior.

Pickup artist books describe this as the "anti-slvt defense". Basically the woman knows full well what she's doing with the man, but doesn't want to be held responsible for it because of the social stigma that comes with being easy. So the guy invites her over to his apartment "to look at my fish tank", or some other preposterous reason, to give her an out. The woman agrees, knowing it will be for sex, but his false reason gives her a way to claim it was all out of her control:

"He wanted to show me his record collection, and well, ONE THING LED TO ANOTHER..."


----------



## ianos

Kallan Pavithran said:


> self pity? *Are you here for advice* or hoping that your BS will read your post?
> I think that's the all idea of this thread don't you get it?
> 
> 
> 
> I still didn't get why you wanted your monster husband back so eagerly? what do you care is she asking you to married him?
> 
> Stop thinking that you can woo him back into the dead marriage by manipulating him or making him even with you.
> 
> If you wanted him back Be truthful to yourself first, then to your husband.
> Stop playing self pity, own your crap, stop blame shifting and do the hard work and heavy lifting.* Do the paternity test and give him the result *(Please dont throw it away if the child is OMs).



*so much effort to tell us what we already know or we can assume!!!!! But you didn't notice that her first child was already born before the afair started, she was pregnant the second one when the afair start and the third one the OM was completely protected with a condom ?*


----------



## InlandTXMM

I am a year out from my DDay of my wife's EA and I can tell you, one of the things I said to her early on was that I needed the full and complete truth - ALL of it - before I could move forward. She gave me every detail I asked for so I could verify it as best I could.

If I found out, on my own, years later, that her story was worse than I originally endured, I would never be able to reconcile with her.

What you did was re-open the wounds all over again and pour acid in them. He has to live with it as if it's a whole new affair and he walked in on it. You might read here how the BS's "trigger" often after this experience. It's true. Because your husband only knew a small portion of your betrayal, he now gets to re-experience it all over again. I could not do it.

Also, 5 years is not a fling. It's bordering on a double life. Yes, the sex was infrequent, but the emotional affair lasting more than a third, and nearly HALF of your time together (and fully half of the time you've been married) is inexcusable. Five years is a LONG time to find your conscience. Yes, you claim the OM blackmailed you, just as you claimed "one thing led to another" when it started, and you claim your husband effectively drove you into the other man's arms. What I sense in your explanation is not remorse - it is rationalization.

The remorse is about what you've lost, not about what you've done.

I do not mean to hit you hard, but unless your H is a better man than most of us, I can't see how you are going to reconcile. I know I couldn't do it.

I wish you and your children the best.


----------



## frustratedinphx

Suspecting said:


> Did I misunderstand it or doesn't that mean you had sex with both of them at some point?


I did. I can't deny that. With the OM, it was one instance during the conception of our baby and it was protected. Prior to that time, I saw him 11 mos earlier.



Kallan Pavithran said:


> self pity? Are you here for advice or hoping that your BS will read your post?
> 
> I still didn't get why you wanted your monster husband back so eagerly?
> 
> Stop thinking that you can woo him back into the dead marriage by manipulating him or making him even with you.
> 
> If you wanted him back Be truthful to yourself first, then to your husband.
> Stop playing self pity, own your crap, stop blame shifting and do the hard work and heavy lifting. Do the paternity test and give him the result (Please dont throw it away if the child is OMs).


I'm here for advice. He is reading this and getting angrier with me by the moment, but I'm trying to be transparent as several of you have suggested. I'm not trying to woo him back. I'm trying to treat him with the respect that he deserved a long time ago and not put up a fight on anything. I owe him that. He was a monster years ago and at some point it changed. It wasn't a specific day- it just started to get better gradually. I'm not blame shifting or looking for pity. I own everything that I did. I'm finding a place to live, a therapist and preparing to move on. It's not what I want but I don't get a say anymore and I get that.

KP- I have no momentos- there were none other than the one picture. I had another of him at some point, but deleted it years ago when i got mad at him. 

I have nothing to fear for a paternity test. If you have kids and are familiar with the process of egg fertilization, it's not scientifically possible. it's just not. Nonetheless, i will be doing one anyway.

I've also contacted my doctors office for STD tests to share with him. They were all negative or I would have been informed during the course of my pregnancy.

I never made an excuse to not do a polygraph. I would like to ask how intimately familiar you are with the details of your life 5 years back. I have a hard time remembering last week. In fact, I have to write down every detail of my day or set appointments in my phone to remember or take pictures to remember a lot of things. 

I sent the picture of his OW NOT to try to level the playing field. It never will be- what I did was immeasurable. I wanted him to see how easy it was to start an affair- NOT THAT IT IS ANY EXCUSE FOR MINE. His started exactly the way mine did except that he got caught really early on. It had the potential to be a PA too. I don't think any of you can dispute that.



frustratedinphx said:


> The reason I never left is because of my kids and the strong expectations of staying together. My parents and his have been married 40+ years each. My grandparents were married for 65+ years and his I believe were the same. I found out a few years back that my grandfather strayed and had a son out of wedlock but my grandmother stayed- that's what you were supposed to do, so I was led to believe. That divorce is not an option. And my friends who had divorces never seemed happy afterward. It was the means to an end, but necessarily the means to happiness.


 Maybe I should have left sooner, but that's why i didn't.

I appreciate the open honest responses. The truth does hurt. I have no reason to lie to a bunch of strangers and the fact that BS is reading the thread (I don't know to what extent) and getting madder as he reads and gets more details further damaging things is evidence to that. I have nothing to gain to lie to any of you, to him or to anyone else that asks. 

I OWN IT. It's done. He will never love, trust or forgive me. All i can do is pick up the pieces, try to be a good parent and move on.


----------



## ThePheonix

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I do feel sorry for you to a certain extent. What I see is you were verbally abused and neglected by your husband for basically your entire marriage. He was and probably still is an ass, regardless of how successful he is at work.


I agree with Plan 9. If your marriage is anything like you describe, why under the sun do you want to continue living in this hell. It sounds like your marriage really sucked. Maybe the silver lining of him wanting a divorce is you won't have to tolerate his abusive crap any more. Think about your life five years from now--still married to him and still dancing to his tune, putting up with the abuse as compared to having him long gone kicking some other girl around. Any way you go Mon Sher, the honeymoon is over.


----------



## bfree

frustratedinphx said:


> I did. I can't deny that. With the OM, it was one instance during the conception of our baby and it was protected.


If I were your husband this would be the hardest thing for me to deal with. I know that when my wife and I were trying to get pregnant it was a time when I felt closest to her. It felt to me like we were truly bonded in a way that I can't really describe. Knowing that you had another man inside of you during this time period would absolutely destroy that bond for me if I were him. And the things that would be gong through my mind would be how do I really know it was protected sex? Was she trying to have his baby? What if the condom leaked? Didn't she care if she got pregnant by this other man? Would she have made me raise another man's child? Am I absolutely certain that this child is indeed mine? How evil is this woman I promised my life to? I honestly don't think you really comphrehend the damage you have done.


----------



## Acabado

ThePheonix said:


> If your marriage is anything like you describe, why under the sun do you want to continue living in this hell. It sounds like your marriage really sucked. Maybe the silver lining of him wanting a divorce is you won't have to tolerate his abusive crap any more. Think about your life five years from now--still married to him and still dancing to his tune, putting up with the abuse as compared to having him long gone kicking some other girl around. Any way you go Mon Sher, the honeymoon is over.


She already pointed out, several times, the marriage has been improving slowly last years.
I don't believe he's deluded into thinking he's a saint here: if he was able to change it's because at a certain point he realized he wasn't doint it right. His brief "scapade" is not to dismiss either.
I believe it's probably one of things BH is so angry about, he put a serious effort, since he was diagnosed with ADHD, into improving the marriage with great aparent effects and he now believes it was for nothing, a wasted effort, fake, null, void. I can't blame him for it.


----------



## SoulStorm

frustratedinphx said:


> I did. I can't deny that. With the OM, it was one instance during the conception of our baby and it was protected. Prior to that time, I saw him 11 mos earlier.


It is tidbits like this that drive the nail home for no chance of reconciliation. 
It shows a great amount of disrespect and disloyalty to your husband to be intimate with another man while trying to conceive a child with him. How can he even believe you that it was protected? He honestly can't. It's really sad.


----------



## Suspecting

frustratedinphx said:


> I did. I can't deny that. With the OM, it was one instance during the conception of our baby and it was protected. Prior to that time, I saw him 11 mos earlier.


This I don't understand. You obviously had planned future with your husband. What if the OM had popped the condom and got you pregnant instead? Just wondering what you were thinking. It seems a bit self destructive behavior to me.


----------



## frustratedinphx

God forbid that I had gotten pregnant during that visit, I would have aborted the baby. I couldn't subject my family or his to dealing with something like that.


----------



## SoulStorm

So you drove 6 hours away or he drove 6 hours and you only had sex one time per visit? Or was it sessions? Asking because frequency definitely warrants a paternity test


----------



## PamJ

<<That's why I recommended divorcing but staying together and doing counseling while they re-build the relationship. Just because the marriage is put out of its misery doesn't mean the relationship has to end. In fact it could become better. People get re-married all the time.>>

I guess I just don't get why you would take such a complicated legal step, especially when children are involved, of divorcing, but staying together during the process, with the hopes of working it out.


----------



## frustratedinphx

SoulStorm said:


> So you drove 6 hours away or he drove 6 hours and you only had sex one time per visit? Or was it sessions? Asking because frequency definitely warrants a paternity test


I flew there. I saw him for a total of about 4-5 hours (over 48hrs). The first night I saw him, he came to my hotel room and we had sex. It sucked. The next day I went to his house because the original purpose (I guess I did take the slvt escape) was to be trained on marketing via social media- his trade and I have the notes to prove it. For that portion he was so nasty to me and condescending, If I hadn't flown there, I would have walked out immediately. In the back of my head I didn't want to do it, but didn't listen to my instinct and did it anyway. So stupid.

It was the same on other occasions. I don't know why, but that's just how it was. I'm not overly sexually charged. I was online, but in person I wasn't and I tend not to be. With BS he frequently was angry with me for not being in the mood when we finally rekindled our sexual relationship. For me, I am wound pretty tightly and am easily stressed out. So it affects my head by me not being able to "get in the mood".


----------



## frustratedinphx

The whole act of having an affair didn't sit well with me, but I never bucked up and ended it. When I was talking to or with OM, I would imagine my grandparents and his grandparents watching from heaven and shaking their heads in disgust at me. The guilt was really bad but then I never did anything to stop it either, which is just as bad.


----------



## SoulStorm

frustratedinphx said:


> I flew there. I saw him for a total of about 4-5 hours (over 48hrs). The first night I saw him, he came to my hotel room and we had sex. It sucked. The next day I went to his house because the original purpose (I guess I did take the slvt escape) was to be trained on marketing via social media- his trade and I have the notes to prove it. For that portion he was so nasty to me and condescending, If I hadn't flown there, I would have walked out immediately. In the back of my head I didn't want to do it, but didn't listen to my instinct and did it anyway. So stupid.
> 
> It was the same on other occasions. I don't know why, but that's just how it was. I'm not overly sexually charged. I was online, but in person I wasn't and I tend not to be. With BS he frequently was angry with me for not being in the mood when we finally rekindled our sexual relationship. For me, I am wound pretty tightly and am easily stressed out. So it affects my head by me not being able to "get in the mood".


Thanks for answering my question...I think :scratchhead:

I guess you mean it was one time each time. Wash rinse repeat on each visit?


----------



## Wazza

Polygraphs are popular here, but they are not accurate. If you decide to try that, make sure you do the research first. Wikipedia had an ok summary and you can google more to confirm.

They get it right somewhere between 60% and 90% of the time.So at it's best you have a 10% chance of it dumping you into trouble unfairly, and at worst a 40% chance.

Some people use them as a lever....the idea being the guilty spouse cracks under pressure and confesses stuff in the parking lot. But I can't see how that would apply in your context.

I also get your point about not remembering details from years ago. If it were me I would say "I am not sure but I think..."

Husband is going to go through a roller coaster....give him time. It is inevitable that he will be really angry and there will be some really nasty moments. That is part if the process.

There have been cases here where people recovered from long affairs. Your outlook is bleak but not hopeless.

If your husband is looking at this, he might like to consider starting a thread to get some support.


----------



## awake1

If I were the BH, i'd check all the travel logs to that city, or overnight stays anywhere, and probably assume that each time was a new sex session with this other guy. I don't remember reading it, but did you come clean or were you discovered? 

For me, I would have had a higher chance of working it out with my wife had she come clean on her own. And the whole time she's lying thinking "if i tell the truth it'll just get worse" the opposite was happening. Each lie actually made it worse, not the other way around. Liars don't quite get that. They think they're sparing themselves pain when they're just causing more. 

I wouldn't make excuses to him. I'd understand that one day he'll hate you, and the next he'll love you. That could repeat for months. I also would stick with being loving and kind, and bending over backwards. Talking helps too. 

But to be honest, 5 years? Many marriages end because of a one night stand. That's a dual relationship. 

If your BH was here, i'd tell him to run for the hills and never look back. 

If he does stick around, keep in mind the sacrifice he's making and act accordingly.


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

You went too far. A 5 year relationship with another man is damage beyond repair. 

If your husband gave you his ring and watch, he's most likely done. He's taken action that he's moving on.

I'm a bit taken back that you slept with the OM when you were pregnant and for 5 years. If I were your h, I'd have a paternity test on all of the children. You say they are your husbands, but you did sleep with the OM while your in your child bearing years and trying to conceive.


----------



## frustratedinphx

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> If your husband gave you his ring and watch, he's most likely done. He's taken action that he's moving on.


I took my ring off after wife's affair, and didn't put it back on again for many years. When I did decide to wear it again, it was emotionally very hard to do.

Post the affair, the ring was a symbol of promises broken, of a marriage that was dead. Putting it back on stirred up a hornet's nest.

I'm in a place now where I can wear the ring, remember the affair, and not plunge into dark thoughts, and that is a good thing, but it took a long time. A lot longer than the two to five years that is usually quoted around here.


----------



## frustratedinphx

For the 2nd time, I DID NOT, I repeat DID NOT have sex with the OM while I was pregnant. It never happened!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Why have you not posted the OM on cheaterville?

Why have you not exposed his affair to the women in his life? Or has he not had a wife of gf ever except you?



Btw, I do understand why you are getting so adamant about not having sex while pregnant. You had a five year affair and did have sex while trying to get pregnant. So why split hairs about if you we're already pregnant or not. You still were having the affair!


----------



## WorkingOnMe

So you're not that sexually charged anyway? What a prize you are. So if your BH takes you back he gets what? More bedroom rejection? What kind of insentive is that? And you frequently rejected him but gave it up for another man? Most guys wouldn't be able to get past that. I mean a lot can be forgiven if you were otherwise a good wife, but it doesn't sound like it was all that.


----------



## chillymorn

what are you going to do to change!

because your actions will show if you changed or just blowing smoke.


----------



## MattMatt

You seemed to value a scheming, nasty blackmailer more than you did your husband. *For five years*.

If you can explain that to yourself you might, just might, mind you, have a chance to explain it to your husband.

*Report his blackmail to the police.*


----------



## ianos

It's very easy to accuse someone especially one with the label cheater.Sometimes I think that some people post 
just to curse, they don't even read the thread and they have opinion about everything they just repeat what all the others said.

If you read her first thread and if her story is true she was in a living hell,her H verbaly abused her in private and in public 
even in front of her children he wasn't helping her with housekeeping ,instead he prefares to play video games 6+ours a day 
she even got to do Minor repairs at her house wich usualy is work for a man such as replacing their hot water heater and repairing garage door opener, to mention a few , do you find this logical ? Is he look to you like a man who cares about his family?And remember that her first thread is 5 years old so i don't thing that she post this things so she can use them as an
excuse 5 years later.
And now this man demand redress of his honor, well he lost his honor back then.
Yes what she has done is wrong and unjustified and definetly not the smartest thing. probably the best thing for her was to D him right from the start wich she didn't ,big mistake for her, and that is what she pays now ,and the funny thing is that now she is the bad person althought he was the one who literally pushed her in that direction.
I don't mean that he asked her to find another man but he did everything that he could to ward her off.
What she had done is terrible and almost unforgivable but she is willing to pay the price for her action.
Βut what about him? is he a saint? he didn't do anything wrong?his action has no consequences?
doesn't he owes an apologise about what he did to her in the past?is there any law that makes you a saint right after your wife 
cheating on you?

If we want to be fair we have to admit that both of them have their responsibilities for the failure of their mariage 
the difference is that she admit her mistake (beter late than never)and ask for forgiveness is he willing to do the same 
or he is going to hide himself behind his wife fault, i'm not suggest that she had the right to cheat because her 
H abuse her and i'm not trying to blame him for her actions but we have to see the the whole picture.
Some people said that he can't trust her anymore because she might cheat again, well can she trust him 
that he want abuse her again in the future?Other said that he won't forget what she did to him, exactly the same for her
My point is that they both hurt each other with there actions and it's time to start talking to each other in order 
to find a solution if not for them at least for there children.


----------



## alte Dame

No, clearly neither one of them is a saint. This marriage is the very definition of tragedy.


----------



## Wazza

MattMatt said:


> You seemed to value a scheming, nasty blackmailer more than you did your husband. *For five years*.
> 
> If you can explain that to yourself you might, just might, mind you, have a chance to explain it to your husband.
> 
> *Report his blackmail to the police.*


I think the blackmail became an issue only when she decided to end it. She didn't realise that at first.

I guess she was played and used for sex....only to realise that in retrospect. Sad.


----------



## Anuvia

I've been lurking here for months now and Ihad to register to say that this is one of the worst stories I've ever read on here. What gets me is the double talk from the OP based on everything she has typed starting with her first post. For the sake of your husband, yourself, and your kids it would seem that divorce is the best option


----------



## LongWalk

FIP,

Your moniker, _Frustrated in Phoenix_, and your thread titles, _Pregnant and feel trapped_ and _I had it all threw it all away..._, say a lot to me. Frustration is a mild state, given the marriage you had in 2007.

_Unbearable_ would have been a better word. Indeed, you cheated. Your failure to end your marriage back, a bad choice apparently, led you to make another bad choice – to cheat and gain emotional compensation due to your feelings of resentment.

The fact that you did something behind your husband's back meant that you wanted compensation without discourse or negotiation. Curiously, you did not enjoy your affair very much. Reminds me of someone stealing something to eat from the fridge and then discovering that is half rotten.

A considerable amount of your marital dissatisfaction before the affair had to do with financial conflicts. You were not accorded equal status within your marriage. Your decision to work improved your situation because you became less dependent.

_I had it all threw it all away.._ suggests that you are sorry about losing your lifestyle or environment but the loss of your husband is a subsidiary factor. 

You survived a bleak period and sound like the sort of person who will survive again, although you will weather emotional and financial hardship.

The length of the affair creates a huge obstacle. Even if your husband agrees to reconcile, that resolution may collapse in a few weeks or months time. Better to move on, rather than hope for something that is unlikely to survive. 

One of the terrible consequences of your affair is that it is an attractive subject for gossip. It will be very hard to be condemned by family, friends and acquaintances.


----------



## Anuvia

frustratedinphx said:


> God forbid that I had gotten pregnant during that visit, I would have aborted the baby. I couldn't subject my family or his to dealing with something like that.


:slap:
This gets worse by the post. I really don't have any advice for you. Your husband is the one that really needs the advice. With that said, I wish you luck on your future endeavors. This is too much for even me.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

frustratedinphx said:


> For the 2nd time, I DID NOT, I repeat DID NOT have sex with the OM while I was pregnant. It never happened!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know why it comes up? You keep typing sentences that say you had sex around conception time. So, people are going to believe you are "trickle truthing" because your husband is reading....


> There was a little overlap with *the last time I slept with OM and when we were trying to conceive* but absolutely no possibility that our baby is OMs. She was conceived in June and the last physical contact with OM was in March.





> I did. I can't deny that. With the OM, *it was one instance during the conception of our baby and it was protected.* Prior to that time, I saw him 11 mos earlier.



Just saying, in some people's eyes that means there is a possibility that you had sex with him while pregnant or trying to get pregnant. 

I'd be paying for a paternity test; sorry.


----------



## thatbpguy

frustratedinphx said:


> I just hate myself and don't think I'll ever stop hating myself. Please help me.


Well, you should hate yourself. I mean, I sure would.

But there isn't much you can do about it now. 

I would tell you to learn from your betrayal and if you ever marry again keep your c*** in your panties and don't flirt with other men under any circumsatnces.

Now, I don't mean to just bash you but when one betrays and they lose their marriage and the break-up of their family is part of the natural punishment. You can, if you want to, let the lessons learned make you a better person and wife. Maybe even a better mother. But it's up to you. Feel bad? Please do so. Feel shame and remorse? Good. That should be natural for anyone in your position. 

So let him do what he needs to do and concentrate on making yourself better.


----------



## Anuvia

Wazza said:


> I think the blackmail became an issue only when she decided to end it. She didn't realise that at first.
> 
> *I guess she was played and used for sex....only to realise that in retrospect. Sad.*


She wasn't played or used. She was a willing participant with veto power throughout the entire process. She chose to cheat. She wasn't manipulated into doing so.


----------



## frustratedinphx

LongWalk said:


> FIP,
> 
> _I had it all threw it all away.._ suggests that you are sorry about losing your lifestyle or environment but the loss of your husband is a subsidiary factor.


I really resent the last part of your statement. As much as I have been convicted in everyone's court, i thanked God nearly every night for my husband, our healthy children, our family and friends that mean the world to me. That's what hurts the most- the disruption in everyone's life. This goes beyond my immediate family and hurts our parents, siblings, etc. 

It sounds like you're insinuating I'm lamenting financial things. I may not end up with much but I grew up without a lot so I appreciate what hard work did for me and my family. I've never been afraid to work a day in my life. So please do not make assumptions like that.


----------



## frustratedinphx

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You know why it comes up? You keep typing sentences that say you had sex around conception time. So, people are going to believe you are "trickle truthing" because your husband is reading....
> 
> Just saying, in some people's eyes that means there is a possibility that you had sex with him while pregnant or trying to get pregnant.
> 
> I'd be paying for a paternity test; sorry.


*There is no trickle truth*. I did have sex with OM while trying to conceive- deplorable. I know. 

I'm happy to pay for a paternity test. BH now wants me to prove it via getting a sample from OM. How that's feasible, I don't know. BH is not be willing to submit his sample and wants me to prove it. The facility won't test with hair so my only other option is to go to the state where OM is and beg for one after telling him to stay the hell away from me. I know it's BHs. If you know anything about conception, it's not medically possible it could be anyone else's.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

> If you know anything about conception, it's not medically possible it coOuld be anyone else's.


I know plenty about conception, but, contrary to this attempted slight at my knowledge, you ignored the point of my post.

People don't believe you. So, while you say it never happened your actions and previous trickle truth makes people believe something different.


----------



## Wazza

Anuvia said:


> She wasn't played or used. She was a willing participant with veto power throughout the entire process. She chose to cheat. She wasn't manipulated into doing so.


The two are not mutually incompatible. Yes, everyone who cheats has veto power. Yes she did wrong. I imagine the blackmail attempt still came as a bitter blow.


----------



## Wazza

frustratedinphx said:


> *There is no trickle truth*. I did have sex with OM while trying to conceive- deplorable. I know.
> 
> I'm happy to pay for a paternity test. BH now wants me to prove it via getting a sample from OM. How that's feasible, I don't know. BH is not be willing to submit his sample and wants me to prove it. The facility won't test with hair so my only other option is to go to the state where OM is and beg for one after telling him to stay the hell away from me. I know it's BHs. If you know anything about conception, it's not medically possible it could be anyone else's.


I would personally not contact OM. I would be willing to have the test if your husband wants it, but he must submit a sample.


----------



## Wazza

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I know plenty about conception, but, contrary to this attempted slight at my knowledge, you ignored the point of my post.
> 
> People don't believe you. So, while you say it never happened your actions and previous trickle truth makes people believe something different.


Suspicion of trickle truthing is entirely reasonable. But she is offering to do the paternity test. Credit where due.


----------



## Anuvia

frustratedinphx said:


> I really resent the last part of your statement. As much as I have been convicted in everyone's court, i thanked God nearly every night for my husband, our healthy children, our family and friends that mean the world to me. That's what hurts the most- the disruption in everyone's life. This goes beyond my immediate family and hurts our parents, siblings, etc.
> 
> It sounds like you're insinuating I'm lamenting financial things. I may not end up with much but I grew up without a lot so I appreciate what hard work did for me and my family. I've never been afraid to work a day in my life. So please do not make assumptions like that.


Did you make this thread knowing that your husband may read it?


----------



## LongWalk

frustratedinphx said:


> I really resent the last part of your statement. As much as I have been convicted in everyone's court, i thanked God nearly every night for my husband, our healthy children, our family and friends that mean the world to me. That's what hurts the most- the disruption in everyone's life. This goes beyond my immediate family and hurts our parents, siblings, etc.
> 
> It sounds like you're insinuating I'm lamenting financial things. I may not end up with much but I grew up without a lot so I appreciate what hard work did for me and my family. I've never been afraid to work a day in my life. So please do not make assumptions like that.


I don't mean that you want your marriage primarily for financial reasons or that you merely fear a fall in your standard of living. "Everyone's life" = "all that you threw away"

But from your husband's perspective he wants to feel that the loss of him and especially his manhood is what matters to you, not the fact that your lives are secure and pleasant. All of security and warmth is for a man predicated on 1) sexual exclusivity 2) emotional fidelity. Both are important for women both are important also but in the opposite order.

The fact that your affair didn't offer good sex shows that women's priorities are different.

I feel sympathy for you and your husband. I cannot see an easy R solution. All you can do is reach often. But rejection will hurt. How many times can you lay your heart out on the chopping block?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Wazza said:


> Suspicion of trickle truthing is entirely reasonable.
> But she is offering to do the paternity test. Credit where due.


Please read what I was responding to, because it had nothing to do with her allowing a paternity test. I have said that twice, so to my point she doesn't get credit for something I am not addressing.


----------



## frustratedinphx

Anuvia said:


> Did you make this thread knowing that your husband may read it?


No- it's the truth. Not that he cares because he's an atheist.


----------



## Brokenshadow

frustratedinphx said:


> No- it's the truth. Not that he cares because he's an atheist.


So maybe a bit more appreciation his way, and not to the absentee landlord in the sky...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ThePheonix

LongWalk said:


> But from your husband's perspective he wants to feel that the loss of him and especially his manhood is what matters to you, not the fact that your lives are secure and pleasant. All of security and warmth is for a man predicated on 1) sexual exclusivity 2) emotional fidelity. Both are important for women both are important also but in the opposite order.


Maybe he should have thought of those things when he was on a mental and verbal abuse tirade. Every time a man abuses his wife, he lowers her romantic interest in him. At some point its so low, she's ripe for the pickin for some bastard like me. 
Show me a man that verbally kicks his wife around and I'll show you a man whos wife I can steal, at least back in my day. 
I don't care about how important he believes his manhood is, or if he wants sexual exclusivity, emotional fidelity, etc. What he wants and expects doesn't matter. What matters is how the wife feels about him. Get off your male pride and ego and treat her right. Than if she cheats, blame her. Treat her badly, blame yourself. ( I don't if some say the cheater is always 100% at fault. One thing I've learned after all these years is when a woman is treated like she's her man's disappointment, she's going to prove otherwise. Make her feel second best at your own perile)


----------



## SoulStorm

frustratedinphx said:


> *There is no trickle truth*. I did have sex with OM while trying to conceive- deplorable. I know.
> 
> I'm happy to pay for a paternity test. BH now wants me to prove it via getting a sample from OM. How that's feasible, I don't know. BH is not be willing to submit his sample and wants me to prove it. The facility won't test with hair so my only other option is to go to the state where OM is and beg for one after telling him to stay the hell away from me. I know it's BHs. I*f you know anything about conception, it's not medically possible it could be anyone else's.*


Do you know how many women have said that and the baby wasn't from whom they thought?


----------



## Will_Kane

frustratedinphx said:


> I looked into blocking his number but with AT&T it's expensive to do.


How expensive? What is your marriage worth? How expensive is a divorce? From a betrayed spouse point of view, this just sounds like an excuse to leave open a way for other man to get you.

Changing your phone number is tough because of the business you're in? Do you think it's harder for you to change your number or for your husband to live with the idea that you care more about keeping the same business number than putting his mind more at ease?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

ThePheonix said:


> Make her feel second best at your own perile)


One thing I've learned here is this is an excuse. You make her first, heck even him, she/he may cheat just as quickly. There is no fast or easy rule to follow. Heck the more I read about RDMU, darklily, and RTFB, holy crap spouses of either gender can't win.


----------



## Will_Kane

frustratedinphx said:


> I keep those accounts for business too so I can't completely delete them.


Really? Is this a federal law or a state law that requires you to keep them open?

Of course you can delete those accounts and get new ones. It's just that the accounts are more important to you than putting your husband's mind at ease.


----------



## Will_Kane

frustratedinphx said:


> I did. I can't deny that. With the OM, it was one instance during the conception of our baby and it was protected. Prior to that time, I saw him 11 mos earlier.


Are condoms foolproof? They always work perfectly and no one ever gets pregnant if a condom is used? They are never defective and they never break?


----------



## ThePheonix

phillybeffandswiss said:


> One thing I've learned here is this is an excuse. You make her first, heck even him, she/he may cheat just as quickly.


Of course. Some will cheat regardless. I had one that was married to three different men over a 5 year period that cheated on all three. 
In other cases, being lower on the spouse's totem pole is not so much of an excuse as a reason. A person may look as cheating as a viable option for relief from a life of hell with their spouse. True enough, maybe they should just divorce, but like electricity, many people tend to take the path of least resistance. 
Nevertheless, from my experience, a common thread is the cheater's romantic interest in their spouse went south at some point. As in Frustrated case, it typically takes a little time and repeated incidences for the abuse to drive romantic interest down into the danger zone. Unfortunately Frustrated's husband pushed the envelope too far and look what it got him.


----------



## Anuvia

I think the agenda of this thread is to push a certain narrative to her husband (she knows the husband will read it) instead of really seeking advice or being contrite. Sorry but it doesn't seem sincere to me.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

> Nevertheless, from my experience, a common thread is the cheater's romantic interest in their spouse went south at some point.


Yes, I agree and I'll leave the parsing to someone else.


----------



## frustratedinphx

Will_Kane said:


> Really? Is this a federal law or a state law that requires you to keep them open?
> 
> Of course you can delete those accounts and get new ones. It's just that the accounts are more important to you than putting your husband's mind at ease.


I would hardly say that is more important than salvaging what's left of my family, but in my line of work my picture, name and phone number are everywhere- online, in the paper, magazines, etc.. Do you really think that getting a new account would create any anonymity for me? It's all or none. There is no point in having them if they don't advertise me and what I do. I would consider deleting them, but it goes without saying that I lose the ability to prospect for more business and thus lose income. That has to be a calculated financial decision for the family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedinphx

Anuvia said:


> I think the agenda of this thread is to push a certain narrative to her husband (she knows the husband will read it) instead of really seeking advice or being contrite. Sorry but it doesn't seem sincere to me.


I'm sorry you feel this way. I'll take my problems to a counselor instead and see what I can learn there. I'm all for constructive criticism but since this jury has already hung me clearly I'm not going to gain anything that will be helpful to my really ****ty situation. For each of you who've judged, I hope you are judged for your actions too someday- fairly or not. For those of you who tried to help whether what you had to say was pleasant or not, thank you. I truly appreciate it and will take your suggestions to heart. Good luck to all of you whatever your own situation may be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Anuvia said:


> I think the agenda of this thread is to push a certain narrative to her husband (she knows the husband will read it) instead of really seeking advice or being contrite. Sorry but it doesn't seem sincere to me.


I agree!

The irony is that she said the more he reads here, the madder he get's. What she didn't take into account was that he'd be reading all of our posts along with hers.

Posts that make him think more... Posts that make him more angry...


----------



## jim123

frustratedinphx said:


> I'm sorry you feel this way. I'll take my problems to a counselor instead and see what I can learn there. I'm all for constructive criticism but since this jury has already hung me clearly I'm not going to gain anything that will be helpful to my really ****ty situation. For each of you who've judged, I hope you are judged for your actions too someday- fairly or not. For those of you who tried to help whether what you had to say was pleasant or not, thank you. I truly appreciate it and will take your suggestions to heart. Good luck to all of you whatever your own situation may be.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You have already confessed so there is no trial.

At this point there is very little you can do. It is in your H's hands.

Try to have him stay. Leaving is never good.

Do go to an IC.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Will_Kane

frustratedinphx said:


> I would hardly say that is more important than salvaging what's left of my family, but in my line of work my picture, name and phone number are everywhere- online, in the paper, magazines, etc.. Do you really think that getting a new account would create any anonymity for me? It's all or none. There is no point in having them if they don't advertise me and what I do. I would consider deleting them, but it goes without saying that I lose the ability to prospect for more business and thus lose income. That has to be a calculated financial decision for the family.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is not the reasoning you used in your prior post.

I think that you can contact other man at any time and he can contact you at any time, whether or not you change any numbers. No one can control whether you talk to other man except you. But you really don't get it, do you? It's not about anonymity, it's about showing your husband how much you care about him and what you are willing to do for him, AT YOUR EXPENSE.

In another post you mentioned that blocking other man's number was "too expensive." Nothing about "anonymity" or lack of it.


----------



## Will_Kane

frustratedinphx said:


> That has to be a calculated financial decision for the family.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you find it ironic that changing your social media accounts is a huge decision that the whole family has to be involved in, but having a five-year-long physical and emotional affair was something you decided upon all by yourself, keeping it completely secret from all, and not even telling the truth about it when caught?

What do you think is worse for your family, changing the social media accounts or committing adultery for five years?


----------



## Wazza

frustratedinphx said:


> I'm sorry you feel this way. I'll take my problems to a counselor instead and see what I can learn there. I'm all for constructive criticism but since this jury has already hung me clearly I'm not going to gain anything that will be helpful to my really ****ty situation. For each of you who've judged, I hope you are judged for your actions too someday- fairly or not. For those of you who tried to help whether what you had to say was pleasant or not, thank you. I truly appreciate it and will take your suggestions to heart. Good luck to all of you whatever your own situation may be.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Frustrated, this happens to every WS who posts here, but if you can stick it out it settles down. You are already getting some good advice, and you will get more.


----------



## Wazza

Anuvia said:


> I think the agenda of this thread is to push a certain narrative to her husband (she knows the husband will read it) instead of really seeking advice or being contrite. Sorry but it doesn't seem sincere to me.


I have seen her as open to advice but resistant to attacks for what it is worth. Had you posed this as a question it would be reasonable. I don't see how you have sufficient knowledge to know this is her agenda, therefore as a conclusion I think it is unreasonable.


----------



## Wazza

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Please read what I was responding to, because it had nothing to do with her allowing a paternity test. I have said that twice, so to my point she doesn't get credit for something I am not addressing.


Thought you were focussed on trickle truth. Maybe I misunderstood?

Trickle truth is basic human nature. There may be more to come or maybe not. But she cannot prove no sex with OM while pregnant. She can prove no paternity, but that is not the same thing.

Telling her that a lot of people, including her husband, won't believe her right now is really stating the obvious. What would you do to help her resurrect belief....or is it impossible?


----------



## frustratedinphx

Will_Kane said:


> That is not the reasoning you used in your prior post.
> 
> I think that you can contact other man at any time and he can contact you at any time, whether or not you change any numbers. No one can control whether you talk to other man except you. But you really don't get it, do you? It's not about anonymity, it's about showing your husband how much you care about him and what you are willing to do for him, AT YOUR EXPENSE.
> 
> In another post you mentioned that blocking other man's number was "too expensive." Nothing about "anonymity" or lack of it.


In case any of you haven't figured it out, I'm a real estate broker. You can't sell a home without advertising it. You can't advertise it if there is no name/number/website associated with the advertising. You also can't attract new business if you don't have your name and phone number out in the public other than on a sign on someones front lawn. 

Despite what the term "social media" implies, I use it for business because this is the medium that my Gen Y clients use as well as some of my older clients. So, for my purposes, it's really not very "social". Additionally, OM is blocked from reaching me via these accounts. BH saw to that himself weeks ago, because I myself did not completely understood how to do it.

Besides all that, OM figured out that I wanted no contact when I started deleting/unfriending/blocking him from my accounts. He reached out to blackmail me again because the message was clear, except that I stuck to my guns and made no contact back other than to say "do what you have to do". 

As far as changing social media accounts, it's the same space. So it would be akin to changing my name from Jane Doe to Janie Doe. Facebook & LinkedIn and Twitter (but to a lesser extent) use your true name and other personal details as the identifier, unlike here on TAM where we have anonymous handles unless we choose to share more. Deleting them is more effective, but it cuts off a revenue stream, as I mentioned earlier, which has to be factored in to the equation.

Saying that paying for call blocking was "too expensive" was a rash reaction. Getting my family back is priceless. However, it needs to be thought through whether this is an effective solution. Again, if my name and phone number are everywhere and he can access me, who or what is to say he can't use another number to contact me, which would make the block ineffective. AND I personally have no desire to speak to anyone who has threatened to blackmail me twice unless my lawyer is present. Would you? So, my final thought is does this achieve working hard- yes, working smart- maybe not.


----------



## Dyokemm

OP,

There is not much you can do at this point but wait to see what your H decides to do. Be at peace with that reality and try not to let it torment you. Accept that in this situation, you have surrendered any right to have a say in the choice or to put the decision on any type of timeline.

If you don't mind my asking, I was wondering why you couldn't see OM for the s**tbag he obviously is BEFORE you dug yourself into this hole?

This is not a trait that is unique to you as a woman. I am constantly amazed that women do not see these POS for what they are and what they are truly after until AFTER disaster has struck.

I mean that if you had asked 100 guys what he was really all about from day one of 'helping' you, probably 98 of them would have told you he'd follow this or a similar script.

Did you realize and not care? Were you really delusional enough to believe he only wanted to help and support you?

I just don't understand why so many women can't see this soon enough to save themselves from these horrible situations.

My best friend just had to make a similar point to his W about some POS that was floating around her at work. She was convinced he was just a good guy. He was friendly and really shy. He would never want to do that with her.

I was over at their place and he asked me my opinion. I said the guy was obviously fishing.

I don't think she really believed us until the guy got a little too bold and she caught on because we had forewarned her, but she REALLY was shocked that he was trying to get in her pants.


----------



## LongWalk

Your decision to not scotch all of your social media, telephone numbers, etc, is economically rational. If you end up divorced you need to make a living. So, it would be foolish to add that trouble to your life.

Real estate agent.... well, that creates many opportunities for affairs. A real estate agent can always say he is going out to show house. And since many clients take place when couples have free time in the evenings, that creates a trust issue.

You must have seen many divorces and marriages since they drive the market. What have you thought when seeing divorcing couples selling to split their households? 

I appreciate your frustration with posters judging you. Listening to judgments, when you already feel guilty, does not give a magic solution. My advice is be attentive to your husband. Say sorry every time. Look him in the eye. Try to get him to eat with you. Try to get him into bed, not in a whorish way to cover up the bad situation, but simply to try and find him.

Your profession has given you the skills to read people making life changing decisions. This is a plus and minus. You may be better at 
taking the initiative but your husband may also think you a hustling him.

Again, being sad and humorless will not make you attractive to him. Without being flippant, if you can poke fun at yourself and make him laugh, you have a better chance of sparking something.

Your situation is not unique. Is there in consolation in knowing that 57% of men cheat and 54% of women, according to one study. Not everyone gets caught.

TAM will probably help more than hurt. The advice you get here comes from the poster's need to help, sometimes altruistically, sometimes sympathetically. There are people who harbor misogyny. Learn to distinguish.

By reading other threads you may gain valuable insight. TAM ought to be very good reading for someone in your profession.


----------



## ThePheonix

frustratedinphx said:


> Again, if my name and phone number are everywhere and he can access me, who or what is to say he can't use another number to contact me, which would make the block ineffective.


No need to explain. If this guy wants to conjure up your phone number, or anybody's phone number, he can do it. There are more ways around a blocked number than there are blocked numbers. And if this cat wanted to see you, all the more he would have to do is get some stooge to set up a showing of a house or catch up at an open house. Its not important that he not be able to contact you. What's important is that you not want to contact him. (if you want to end this thing).
Personally, if you were my cousin, I'd recommend you dump both the abuser and the blackmailer.


----------



## LongWalk

Having slept on it, I do have advice for you. Cultivate your sense of humor as you never have in your life before. Look for everything funny and ironic. Force yourself to laugh, even if it is at the bitterest of small ironies.

I am not so convinced your husband is such a great guy, but if you love him and want to help him be a better person, let him know you will not become a pathetic sad sack. If you can make him laugh, maybe, just maybe you can get a wedge in the closing door.

Read Gut Punch's thread to get the idea.


----------



## InlandTXMM

frustratedinphx said:


> *There is no trickle truth*. I did have sex with OM while trying to conceive- deplorable. I know.
> 
> I'm happy to pay for a paternity test. BH now wants me to prove it via getting a sample from OM. How that's feasible, I don't know. BH is not be willing to submit his sample and wants me to prove it. The facility won't test with hair so my only other option is to go to the state where OM is and beg for one after telling him to stay the hell away from me. I know it's BHs. If you know anything about conception, it's not medically possible it could be anyone else's.


This is the hard part about not coming completely clean when you had the chance. Now everything you ever say will be suspect. If you were my wife, I'd have to check twice by looking myself if you told me the sky was blue. That's not meant to be unfairly harsh; it's trying to explain where your husband is right now.

You look like someone he doesn't recognize or know at all at this point. 

Personally I still can't get over 5 years of affair, particularly when you said the sex was bad, and as a successful businesswoman used to contracts and law, your only excuse was the OM blackmailed you.  Your husband isn't buying that either.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Wazza said:


> Thought you were focussed on trickle truth. Maybe I misunderstood?


 Yes, you misunderstood.


> Telling her that a lot of people, including her husband, won't believe her right now is really stating the obvious.


Many things in these threads are "obvious," but to move the thread forward, sometimes they need to be stated. She doesn't need to focus on the people who keep saying "she had sex while pregnant" which was my only point. 

It'll keep coming up. so I was pointing out why some people do not believe her. That's it. Also, to drive it home, I said I'd get a DNA test because of all the trickle truth. I never said she is still trickle truthing or applying it to the sex during pregnancy or conception.



> What would you do to help her resurrect belief....or is it impossible?


R If we are talking paternity, there is only one way and I never said he was correct for being silly. It is idiotic to tell someone no contact, try to force an end to contact and then say go get DNA by reestablishing contact.


----------



## Julien

frustratedinphx said:


> In case any of you haven't figured it out, I'm a real estate broker. You can't sell a home without advertising it. You can't advertise it if there is no name/number/website associated with the advertising. You also can't attract new business if you don't have your name and phone number out in the public other than on a sign on someones front lawn.
> 
> Despite what the term "social media" implies, I use it for business because this is the medium that my Gen Y clients use as well as some of my older clients. So, for my purposes, it's really not very "social". Additionally, OM is blocked from reaching me via these accounts. BH saw to that himself weeks ago, because I myself did not completely understood how to do it.
> 
> Besides all that, OM figured out that I wanted no contact when I started deleting/unfriending/blocking him from my accounts. He reached out to blackmail me again because the message was clear, except that I stuck to my guns and made no contact back other than to say "do what you have to do".
> 
> As far as changing social media accounts, it's the same space. So it would be akin to changing my name from Jane Doe to Janie Doe. Facebook & LinkedIn and Twitter (but to a lesser extent) use your true name and other personal details as the identifier, unlike here on TAM where we have anonymous handles unless we choose to share more. Deleting them is more effective, but it cuts off a revenue stream, as I mentioned earlier, which has to be factored in to the equation.
> 
> Saying that paying for call blocking was "too expensive" was a rash reaction. Getting my family back is priceless. However, it needs to be thought through whether this is an effective solution. Again, if my name and phone number are everywhere and he can access me, who or what is to say he can't use another number to contact me, which would make the block ineffective. AND I personally have no desire to speak to anyone who has threatened to blackmail me twice unless my lawyer is present. Would you? So, my final thought is does this achieve working hard- yes, working smart- maybe not.


Wouldn't a restraining order against the OM be the perfect solution?


----------



## Acoa

Julien said:


> Wouldn't a restraining order against the OM be the perfect solution?


If she has any evidence of his threat to expose her infidelity if she didn't continue to have sex with him, she could file a legal complaint against him for coercion. Even if the evidence wasn't enough to prosecute him, it might be enough to get a restraining order issued.


----------



## Julien

Acoa said:


> If she has any evidence of his threat to expose her infidelity if she didn't continue to have sex with him, she could file a legal complaint against him for coercion. Even if the evidence wasn't enough to prosecute him, it might be enough to get a restraining order issued.


In her first post in this thread, OP says the blackmailing was all via text and she took screenshots of her phone. I guess that will work then.

OP, the cards are in your hand. You should get some legal advice on how to get an RO.


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

frustratedinphx said:


> The whole act of having an affair didn't sit well with me, but I never bucked up and ended it. When I was talking to or with OM, *I would imagine my grandparents and his grandparents watching from heaven and shaking their heads in disgust at me.* The guilt was really bad but then I never did anything to stop it either, which is just as bad.




Sorry OP, its too much, dont bring your grandparents into this ****y thing. Let them have their peace.

You seems too manipulative. I already told you, the best chance for R is to be truthful to yourself and then to your husband. Its hard and brutual but it will definitely give you more chance at winning your husband back than you writing 100s of para like above.


----------



## InlandTXMM

Julien said:


> In her first post in this thread, OP says the blackmailing was all via text and she took screenshots of her phone. I guess that will work then.


Except that she won't do anything about it. The blackmail threat was the excuse for not stopping, not the reason.


----------



## Acoa

InlandTXMM said:


> Except that she won't do anything about it. The blackmail threat was the excuse for not stopping, not the reason.


I tend to agree with you. But giving her the benefit of the doubt, if she engaged with sex with him after the blackmail threat, and she didn't want to, but did soley for the purpose of preventing her H from finding out. She should file rape charges against OM. Getting OM convicted of rape would go along way to proving to her H it wasn't just an excuse.


----------



## InlandTXMM

Acoa said:


> I tend to agree with you. But giving her the benefit of the doubt, if she engaged with sex with him after the blackmail threat, and she didn't want to, but did soley for the purpose of preventing her H from finding out. She should file rape charges against OM. Getting OM convicted of rape would go along way to proving to her H it wasn't just an excuse.


She has never taken full responsibility for any of these actions. 

To recap, mean hubby and crappy marriage is the root cause of her infidelity. Oh, that and the other man expressed an interest.

She didn't actively engage in an affair, remember: "one thing led to another". It was just a whirlwind of passion and surprises. Even with a serious travel commitment to see him.

The sex was bad and even the next day, she said the OM began "abusing" her, just as she claimed the husband did. Yet she stayed. Here's where responsibility for the affair shifts from husband to OM, who later holds this successful independent businesswoman hostage as his long-distance, occasional love slave.

Let's remember that the guy was 6 hours away - that's a state away in most places. He wasn't next door or in the office across the hall. This wasn't an affair of convenience. This was a 5-year relationship. Which began, if my math is correct, 2 years into what is now an 11 year marriage. For half of this marriage, she's been schlepping another man. The other half, she's been lying about it.

She didn't stop it, even while claiming to feel terrible and having the spirits of her grandparents shaming her from above. Never in the five years did she summon up enough self-will to end it.

She picked up the phone every time he called, and when asked why she didn't block the number, it was "too expensive".

I'm sorry - I just don't hear actual remorse. I hear regret, embarrassment at being fully exposed, fear of an uncertain future, and a lot of blameshifting.


----------



## ThePheonix

It would possibly a RO would be a solution be if she has grounds and a standing to get one issued. She said, I think, this cat's in another state, plus her line of business, which could complicate things. His attempted blackmail is concerning. If he makes one more move toward not letting it go, she may need to take some type legal action. Like I said, she seems to be caught between a blackmailer and an abuser. She needs to start hanging out with a better class of bullies. (however, folks are often attracted to the same types)


----------



## InlandTXMM

Remember also, that we have only one side of the "husband is an a$$" excuse.

How many times does the WS point the finger at the BS as the reason? Nearly always. Rewriting the marriage is common and perfunctory.


----------



## Jasel

InlandTXMM said:


> Remember also, that we have only one side of the "husband is an a$$" excuse.
> 
> *How many times does the WS point the finger at the BS as the reason? Nearly always. Rewriting the marriage is common and perfunctory.*


Can't say I disagree with that. All we can do is take the OP's word really but there are always two sides to every story. 

And it seems pretty common for a WS to rewrite the marital history, gaslight, or latch onto some innocuous slight from the BS that happened years previously and completely blow it out of proportion in the present to justify an affair (ie: "You remember when your mother said I was fat 9 years ago and you didn't defend me! Well I've never gotten over that so it helped lead me to cheat!"). Not saying the OP is doing this but it does happen.


----------



## InlandTXMM

My own WW (also a strong, independent professional woman) said, when I asked why she strayed: "We weren't communicating and I was unhappy." I asked how long, and she said, "Two years." 

So I asked her to remember any specific instances where her needs were expressed and ignored, or any time I was abusive, or when she ever said we needed to talk about the marriage - name just one. She couldn't. She now admits things weren't nearly as bad as she remembers, or for as long as she remembers. She acknowledges she gaslighted on purpose because it was salve on her conscience.

What she DID do, in the six months or so prior, was pull away from everyone. From her family, from her friends, even from God. I could see serious changes in her behavior and tried every which way to talk to her. Those talks caused tension in the home, because she denied it. She wouldn't talk to me. Instead, she found a younger hottie at a work trip and turned my world, and a 19-year marriage, upside down. There was nothing I did to deserve it, and nothing I could do to prevent it. She just short-circuited.

The difference between this OP and my wife is this: she came clean with everything and faced the music so that we could reconcile. She was literally a sobbing, vomiting, crumpled-on-the-bathroom floor mess. She never blamed me for it and never once, tried to justify it. She did everything she could and more - transparency, no contact, let me contact others on the trip and verify the stories, even if it meant professional embarrassment or loss of business. Everything. I see this OP doing none of that. She's still in CYA mode.


----------



## LongWalk

OP clearly documented her problems on TAM several years ago
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alte Dame

These days, the words 'Don't judge me!' usually mean 'Don't criticize anything I've done no matter how bad.' The thing is that criticism is often what someone needs to hear and is exactly what might help a situation. OP thinks that the negative criticism is unhelpful, but that is not necessarily true. It very much depends on the content of the criticism.

It seems to me that OP didn't deal with her marital issues directly. If her H is reading this now, then this is just another example of passive-aggressiveness on her part.

Unhappily for the OP, I do judge this behavior. I judge the H's abuse to be bad. I judge her 5-year affair to be worse. I judge the lying to be adding insult to injury. And I judge the inability to confront any of this really honestly to be counterproductive at best.

To me, the constructive advice you should take is to get to an IC and work on yourself. With that, the very, very slim chance that your marriage can survive might actually develop some legs. You need serious professional help. So, I guess that's the final judgment from one of the strangers on TAM.


----------



## Rookie4

Wazza said:


> Polygraphs are popular here, but they are not accurate. If you decide to try that, make sure you do the research first. Wikipedia had an ok summary and you can google more to confirm.
> 
> They get it right somewhere between 60% and 90% of the time.So at it's best you have a 10% chance of it dumping you into trouble unfairly, and at worst a 40% chance.
> 
> Some people use them as a lever....the idea being the guilty spouse cracks under pressure and confesses stuff in the parking lot. But I can't see how that would apply in your context.
> 
> I also get your point about not remembering details from years ago. If it were me I would say "I am not sure but I think..."
> 
> Husband is going to go through a roller coaster....give him time. It is inevitable that he will be really angry and there will be some really nasty moments. That is part if the process.
> 
> There have been cases here where people recovered from long affairs. Your outlook is bleak but not hopeless.
> 
> If your husband is looking at this, he might like to consider starting a thread to get some support.


Polygraphs have their uses. As a baseline for gauging the cheater's truthfulness and as an indicator of the willingness of the cheater to be honest with the BS. It is part of the "heavy lifting", that many posters talk about.


----------



## InlandTXMM

LongWalk said:


> OP clearly documented her problems on TAM several years ago
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I believe the timeline will show you she was already full-steam-ahead in her own affair. And we still only got one side of the story from a person actively engaged in adultery.


----------



## Rookie4

Anuvia said:


> :slap:
> This gets worse by the post. I really don't have any advice for you. Your husband is the one that really needs the advice. With that said, I wish you luck on your future endeavors. This is too much for even me.


Anuvia, do you have any advice for the op, or do you just want to browbeat her with your opinion? I think, at this point , she is fully aware of the enormity of her actions.,


----------



## Rookie4

We are here to try to help. We are not here to browbeat.


----------



## Rookie4

thatbpguy said:


> Well, you should hate yourself. I mean, I sure would.
> 
> But there isn't much you can do about it now.
> 
> I would tell you to learn from your betrayal and if you ever marry again keep your c*** in your panties and don't flirt with other men under any circumsatnces.
> 
> Now, I don't mean to just bash you but when one betrays and they lose their marriage and the break-up of their family is part of the natural punishment. You can, if you want to, let the lessons learned make you a better person and wife. Maybe even a better mother. But it's up to you. Feel bad? Please do so. Feel shame and remorse? Good. That should be natural for anyone in your position.
> 
> So let him do what he needs to do and concentrate on making yourself better.


 If I were you, I would tone down the comments. This is borderline insulting and the ban hammer is always present.


----------



## Rookie4

OP, let me make a suggestion. I think you should take this to the reconciliation thread. There are several people, including couples, who are attempting to reconcile and you will find support and also good advice there. Several posters have been the WS or BS in affairs as long or longer than yours, and can give you the benefit of their experiences and you could do the same.


----------



## badcompany

alte Dame said:


> These days, the words 'Don't judge me!' usually means.......


----------



## bfree

frustratedinphx said:


> In case any of you haven't figured it out, I'm a real estate broker. You can't sell a home without advertising it. You can't advertise it if there is no name/number/website associated with the advertising. You also can't attract new business if you don't have your name and phone number out in the public other than on a sign on someones front lawn.
> 
> Despite what the term "social media" implies, I use it for business because this is the medium that my Gen Y clients use as well as some of my older clients. So, for my purposes, it's really not very "social". Additionally, OM is blocked from reaching me via these accounts. BH saw to that himself weeks ago, because I myself did not completely understood how to do it.
> 
> Besides all that, OM figured out that I wanted no contact when I started deleting/unfriending/blocking him from my accounts. He reached out to blackmail me again because the message was clear, except that I stuck to my guns and made no contact back other than to say "do what you have to do".
> 
> As far as changing social media accounts, it's the same space. So it would be akin to changing my name from Jane Doe to Janie Doe. Facebook & LinkedIn and Twitter (but to a lesser extent) use your true name and other personal details as the identifier, unlike here on TAM where we have anonymous handles unless we choose to share more. Deleting them is more effective, but it cuts off a revenue stream, as I mentioned earlier, which has to be factored in to the equation.
> 
> Saying that paying for call blocking was "too expensive" was a rash reaction. Getting my family back is priceless. However, it needs to be thought through whether this is an effective solution. Again, if my name and phone number are everywhere and he can access me, who or what is to say he can't use another number to contact me, which would make the block ineffective. AND I personally have no desire to speak to anyone who has threatened to blackmail me twice unless my lawyer is present. Would you? So, my final thought is does this achieve working hard- yes, working smart- maybe not.


I do understand what you are driving at but here is something I really want you to realize. We don't know what your husband is thinking but if he is open to reconciliation you need to change your approach. If you read some of the other threads and specifically the reconciliation thread in this CWI section you will see that the WS that are finding success in reconciling their marriages were and are willing to walk through hot coals, not in order to save their marriages but for the spouses they betrayed. People have dropped everything in their entire lives and given up successful careers in order to even have a chance at reconciling their marriages. This is what you must be willing to do if you want to really have a chance at R.

If you had to give up your career to save your marriage would you? If you had to move to a completely different side of the country or even another country altogether would you? If you are only willing to do what is needed to save your marriage you will fail. You need to be willing to go above and beyond and take the initiative anticipating what is not only needed but what would be even slightly helpful. Do you understand what I am trying to communicate?


----------



## frustratedinphx

bfree said:


> If you had to give up your career to save your marriage would you? If you had to move to a completely different side of the country or even another country altogether would you? If you are only willing to do what is needed to save your marriage you will fail. You need to be willing to go above and beyond and take the initiative anticipating what is not only needed but what would be even slightly helpful. Do you understand what I am trying to communicate?


I agree completely and would give up my career, the city we live in and move anywhere in the world. BH knows that and we had spent hours discussing where in the world we could go and I did some research into other countries prior to the TT before my start of this post. I just want to keep my family together. 

I'm not a great stay at home mom because working affords me feeling appreciated and adult interaction, but I would give it all away and join the PTA, do carpools, playdates and make dinner and love after that if it would make a difference. I just want my family to grow up/old together. I want my 4mo baby to grow up with her siblings and a mommy and a daddy because we really had worked up to becoming a great team up to DDay.

I made the timeline of events am spending hundreds to get copies of my phone/text records, have researched and will buy 3 paternity tests for each of our kids, I ordered the book "Not just friends" and am reaching out to counselors. The number of the one I went to previously is not working. I already had a whole host of mommy (my mom), self-esteem & trust issues so I guess I have a lot to do.

I'm trying to be strong for BH in his range of emotions and am trying to do anything he asks of me BUT he wants me to move out so I'm building visitation schedules and finding a place to live. I'll go to the Reconciliation forum and look for encouragement there.

I'm really struggling with all this. Its very hard to get out of bed each morning but I have an infant and a job I have to maintain. I've lost about 8lbs but i was only 110 to start with. I cry in my car so no one sees me. This is my worst nightmare come true. I just never saw us ever splitting apart, and no while I was off doing my dirty deeds I didn't consider all of the consequences.

He's asked me to give up friends who knew what was going on and were "accessories" to the crime, which I'll do. He asked me to take off my wedding rings, which I did as much as I really don't want to. I just want to do what I can to show how sorry I really am. I don't want to fight him- this is hard enough and I just don't have the energy to fight.

I would do the restraining order but have heard that it can open a can of worms and that often leads to the recipient of the RO finding the whereabouts of the person who files. Since OM has guns and I personally think is unstable, I'm not sure I'm willing to take that chance, but would consider going to the police for the blackmail piece. I just want this all to go away. I can do it in chucks but I am having a hard time processing this all at once when I just want to stay in bed and cry. I know I have to face the music, but I can't do it all in a day or week.

I'm always open to criticism and said I was, but if I can't learn from whatever is being said, I'm not open to just being flogged. Clearly I fvcked up, but there are some nasty things being said that are just plain condescending. You can make your point without being nasty. Something bad must have happened here for all of us to be on this site- we're all seeking counsel or to share counsel so can we respect each other?


----------



## ianos

Your H wants paternity test but he doesn't want to give sample, instead he wants the OM's sample.
Most H shackled their W because they don't want absoloutely any contact with the OM and he wants you 
to take sample from him? what is his goal? Any explanation?A logical one please if it's posible.
He need some serious professional help.

Either you two R or not you need to think about your children because they'll need a healthy enviroment to grow up,and he already begun the fight over them in order to take vengeance over you, don't use them to hurt each other.
I thing he needs to calm down a litle , right now he is very angry and for this kind of decisions he needs clear head 
probably it will be a good idea to take his time before he makes his final decision.

One last think ,all the sherlock here keep saying that you had 5 years afair but none of them bother to ask 
how come your H didn't notice anything?maybe a change in your mood ,in the way you behave, nothing at all?
not even a tiny litle thing?
Even the most naive H would have noticed a change and there is absolutely no one that can hide himself for so long,
is he really cares about you?Have you thought about this?


----------



## ceejay93

ianos said:


> One last think ,all the sherlock here keep saying that you had 5 years afair but none of them bother to ask
> how come your H didn't notice anything?maybe a change in your mood ,in the way you behave, nothing at all?
> not even a tiny litle thing?
> Even the most naive H would have noticed a change and there is absolutely no one that can hide himself for so long,
> is he really cares about you?Have you thought about this?


It doesn't matter what the husband noticed or didn't notice. It's her responsibility to NOT have an affair. It doesn't matter what the husband did prior to the affair. The cheating is entirely on her. She could have walked away but chose not to and still doesn't want to!

What's the point of asking if the husband really cares about her. He's clearly pissed off and emotional. That seems like a dude whose world turned upside down and doesn't quite know what to do. 

OP, if you really want this to work, you're gonna have to do some serious lifting. I actually understand what your husband is trying to accomplish by making you get a sample from the OM. To get the sample, you need to get in contact with the OM and meet in person. Your husband is likely trying to see if you can resist the OM in person or if you're full of **** and will cave to one more fvck session. 

In addition, by having the OM tested for paternity, your husband doesn't have to get too involved in the test process. So, if OM ends up being the father, he'll be slightly detached and it'll hurt less. Imagine how much it'll suck if he gets tested and he's not the father. Now compare that to the feeling of testing someone else and having them be the father. In one scenario, he's involved and hurt. In the other, depending on how good he is at compartmentalizing and removing himself from situations, he'll be nothing more than a slightly involved bystander. 

It's fvcked up, but that's my guess on what he's trying to accomplish by testing the OM. 

Life would be so much easier if people who cheated didn't screw their partners over and then torture them by begging for the relationship to continue. Let your husband do what he needs to heal. If that means divorce, then you're going to have to deal with it. People remarry but it takes a lot of work. 

btw, be honest. How abusive was he? How many times did you tell him what he was doing wrong and he told you to fvck off? In order to turn this around, you MUST relay everything that happened without embellishment. 

Best of luck!


----------



## ThePheonix

frustratedinphx said:


> I would do the restraining order but have heard that it can open a can of worms and that often leads to the recipient of the RO finding the whereabouts of the person who files. Since OM has guns and I personally think is unstable, I'm not sure I'm willing to take that chance, but would consider going to the police for the blackmail piece.


Unless its absolutely necessary, you want to stay out of court. If the OM hires an attorney (I would) to represent him at the hearing, his attorney will try to paint you as the problem with the problem (I would). You and your husband will have to listen to the OM's representation of what happened. (If you think your old man is pissed after reading these post, brace yourself.)


----------



## Shaggy

I'll ask again why haven't you exposed the OM as the cheater his is also?

And if you are a real estate broker who advertises I'm sure the OM current has many easy ways finding you.

I certainly hope you aren't advising you betrayed husband to cower in fear if Posen and his "guns". That would be telling your husband that he should bak off the OM and be affair?

@your betrayed husband - go after the OM. Post him up on cheaterville,com as this will come up when anyone searches for him on google,


----------



## PamJ

Your H is clearly setting the rules now because this gives him back a little power that he may feel he hasn't had for a while. When a WS makes decisions that affect the BS, and their family, without their knowledge, as in having an A, the feeling of powerlessness is hard to take.

The demands he is making on you now gives him some sense of control. I did not ask my H to leave but I am much more clear about what I need to heal now and he is willing to do what I ask.

If you are complying, as you say, I don't know what else you can do. He may soften and accept your remorse some day. I hope you all get what you need.


----------



## frustratedinphx

Shaggy said:


> @your betrayed husband - go after the OM. Post him up on cheaterville,com as this will come up when anyone searches for him on google,


He did yesterday. The OM was "featured".


----------



## Shaggy

frustratedinphx said:


> He did yesterday. The OM was "featured".


Good job. And what about you notify his go or wife?


----------



## Anuvia

What's the purpose of posting the other man on Cheaterville again? From what I gather he wasn't the one that cheated on the OP's husband.


----------



## frustratedinphx

He does not have a GF that I'm aware of. BHs intent was to expose him for the cheating and the blackmail. He said he intends to post the text messages of what occurred. but i don't know if that has happened yet. He refrained from putting me up at this time, but i suppose that could change too.


----------



## Decorum

FIP,
This is a hard story to read.
Be sure to think through the things that (really) are walls between the two of you now, take ownership but don't make promises.

For example, "I am a weak person for not telling you the truth out of fear you would leave me, you deserved better" Repeat these as often as he brings them up or needs to hear them.

Dont add "I promise I'll never do it again", he will have to decide for himself if he thinks you are a good risk and if he thinks the relationship is worth it and saveable. He will eventually ask you if you can go forward if he wants to.

Focus on his well being and taking ownership. Confess your weaknesses that made this affair possible, let this be enough for you, be at peace with it. This will set the proper tone and show genuine respect.

At some point he will want to know that you can and will work on yourself, even if you divorce, for the children's sake but its early dont hold that up as some kind of promise that should sway him.

One of the most painful thoughts in his head is another man raising his children, they calling some other POS daddy, or worse some other POS abusing them, his gut is in knots about that right now, and there is nothing you can do or say to make it go away.

You have chosen this for him, and he must work through it.

Take ownership but dont put any pressure on him to decide.

And be fully honest.

Take care!


----------



## Squeakr

Anuvia said:


> What's the purpose of posting the other man on Cheaterville again? From what I gather he wasn't the one that cheated on the OP's husband.


The purpose is so that the OM can share in some of the responsibilities for their part in the A and some of the punishment for their actions. Just because they weren't married to the WS doesn't mean that they should get a hall pass for their cheating ways. I know many don't agree with this action, but don't you think that people should be able to be aware of the character that the AP has??


----------



## ianos

ceejay93 said:


> *It doesn't matter what the husband noticed or didn't notice*. It's her responsibility to NOT have an affair. *It doesn't matter what the husband did prior to the affair*. T*he cheating is entirely on her*. She could have walked away but chose not to and still doesn't want to!
> 
> What's the point of asking if the husband really cares about her. He's clearly pissed off and emotional. That seems like a dude whose world turned upside down and doesn't quite know what to do.
> 
> OP, if you really want this to work, you're gonna have to do some serious lifting. I actually understand what your husband is trying to accomplish by making you get a sample from the OM. To get the sample, you need to get in contact with the OM and meet in person. *Your husband is likely trying to see if you can resist the OM in person or if you're full of **** and will cave to one more fvck session. *
> 
> In addition, by having the OM tested for paternity, your husband doesn't have to get too involved in the test process. So, if OM ends up being the father, he'll be slightly detached and it'll hurt less. Imagine how much it'll suck if he gets tested and he's not the father. Now compare that to the feeling of testing someone else and having them be the father. In one scenario, he's involved and hurt. In the other, depending on how good he is at compartmentalizing and removing himself from situations, *he'll be nothing more than a slightly involved bystander. *
> 
> It's fvcked up, but that's my guess on what he's trying to accomplish by testing the OM.
> 
> Life would be so much easier if people who cheated didn't screw their partners over and then torture them by begging for the relationship to continue. Let your husband do what he needs to heal. If that means divorce, then you're going to have to deal with it. People remarry but it takes a lot of work.
> 
> btw, be honest. How abusive was he? How many times did you tell him what he was doing wrong and he told you to fvck off? In order to turn this around, you MUST relay everything that happened without embellishment.
> 
> Best of luck!


Do you realy believe that?

Someone who loves and care will notice anything just to make sure his W is alright, on the other hand someone who doesn't give a s***t wouldn't even notice if she isn't the house.
Realy ? if someone abuse his wife 24\7 doesn't matter to you?
She already had admit that, tell us something we don't now.
serius now do you believe that her H test her this way?
she already assure as that her H is the father and i have no reason to doubt her
.
but i find strange the way you think.
So he'll learn that the OM isn't the father what he'll do next, second test to find if he is the father?
He'll find out that he is not the father and "he'll be nothing more than a slightly involved bystander"
do you even read what you write?


----------



## thatbpguy

Rookie4 said:


> We are here to try to help. We are not here to browbeat.


We are helping.

It's called tough love and teaching accountability.


----------



## thatbpguy

Rookie4 said:


> If I were you, I would tone down the comments. This is borderline insulting and the ban hammer is always present.


Yeah, I thought about that when I wrote it. I nearly went back and deleted some of it.

Anyway, thanks for mentioning the ban hammer to remind the mods to look at me...

I do appreciate it.


----------



## Shaggy

Anuvia said:


> What's the purpose of posting the other man on Cheaterville again? From what I gather he wasn't the one that cheated on the OP's husband.


1. Public service to others,it lets them know what kind of person he is.

2. Same reason you report a burglar breaking into a house, even if it isn't your house - because it holds a bad guy accountable

3. It says to the OM, that you do hold him accountable for having sex with your wife

4. It is a consequences to the WW to know that her AP is suffering a consequence for her choice to cheat 

5. it creates a rift between the OM and WW because he will be pissed off at her

6. It sends a message to others , when word gets around what you did to the OM, that if you cheat with this married woman, you will be called out for it.


----------



## bfree

frustratedinphx said:


> I agree completely and would give up my career, the city we live in and move anywhere in the world. BH knows that and we had spent hours discussing where in the world we could go and I did some research into other countries prior to the TT before my start of this post. I just want to keep my family together.
> 
> I'm not a great stay at home mom because working affords me feeling appreciated and adult interaction, but I would give it all away and join the PTA, do carpools, playdates and make dinner and love after that if it would make a difference. I just want my family to grow up/old together. I want my 4mo baby to grow up with her siblings and a mommy and a daddy because we really had worked up to becoming a great team up to DDay.
> 
> I made the timeline of events am spending hundreds to get copies of my phone/text records, have researched and will buy 3 paternity tests for each of our kids, I ordered the book "Not just friends" and am reaching out to counselors. The number of the one I went to previously is not working. I already had a whole host of mommy (my mom), self-esteem & trust issues so I guess I have a lot to do.
> 
> I'm trying to be strong for BH in his range of emotions and am trying to do anything he asks of me BUT he wants me to move out so I'm building visitation schedules and finding a place to live. I'll go to the Reconciliation forum and look for encouragement there.
> 
> *I'm really struggling with all this. Its very hard to get out of bed each morning but I have an infant and a job I have to maintain. I've lost about 8lbs but i was only 110 to start with. I cry in my car so no one sees me. This is my worst nightmare come true. I just never saw us ever splitting apart, and no while I was off doing my dirty deeds I didn't consider all of the consequences.*
> 
> He's asked me to give up friends who knew what was going on and were "accessories" to the crime, which I'll do. He asked me to take off my wedding rings, which I did as much as I really don't want to. I just want to do what I can to show how sorry I really am. I don't want to fight him- this is hard enough and I just don't have the energy to fight.
> 
> I would do the restraining order but have heard that it can open a can of worms and that often leads to the recipient of the RO finding the whereabouts of the person who files. Since OM has guns and I personally think is unstable, I'm not sure I'm willing to take that chance, but would consider going to the police for the blackmail piece. I just want this all to go away. I can do it in chucks but I am having a hard time processing this all at once when I just want to stay in bed and cry. I know I have to face the music, but I can't do it all in a day or week.
> 
> I'm always open to criticism and said I was, but if I can't learn from whatever is being said, I'm not open to just being flogged. Clearly I fvcked up, but there are some nasty things being said that are just plain condescending. You can make your point without being nasty. Something bad must have happened here for all of us to be on this site- we're all seeking counsel or to share counsel so can we respect each other?


I would second Rookie's suggestion that you first read and then post in the Reconciliation thread here in the Coping With Infidelity section. Regardless of its original purpose it has become a haven for those working on or even thinking of attempting reconciliation. While you won't be coddled I can assure you that you will be treated with respect and will receive advice and support as you navigate through what is a difficult and arduous path. Be aware that after your initial posting there may be a slight delay in responses as it is the summer and many posters are not on the computer all day.


----------



## Shaggy

I would suggest in addition to dumping the friends who knew and kept silent that you tell them why you are dumping them, 

Not because you husband told you too, but because you are cleaning house of all the things that enable or supported your affair.


----------



## LongWalk

It was easy to find. He has a handsome face and a broad smile.

The blackmail evidence is ugly.

You can only hope he doesn't put you up for revenge.


----------



## Wazza

thatbpguy said:


> We are helping.
> 
> It's called tough love and teaching accountability.


The WS types I know who have been on the receiving end usually say that this sort of thing is over the top. I've seen people leave here because of it. 

I personally think many of the posts in this thread have gone beyond tough love and into personal attacks, eg the assumption that OP is posting here to blow smoke up her husband. Fair enough to raise it as a suspicion, but not to pass judgement without proof IMO.


----------



## thatbpguy

Wazza said:


> The WS types I know who have been on the receiving end usually say that this sort of thing is over the top. I've seen people leave here because of it.
> 
> I personally think many of the posts in this thread have gone beyond tough love and into personal attacks, eg the assumption that OP is posting here to blow smoke up her husband. Fair enough to raise it as a suspicion, but not to pass judgement without proof IMO.


You may be right in some circumstances but I was more talking about my posts on this thread.

That said, it's tough when betrayers come around and due to their posts (in this case not overtly, but pretty close) cause those of us betrayed to get up on our soap boxes a bit. For those of us who have had our lives so negatively impacted in horrendous ways, it's pretty understandable IMHO.

I mean, I suppose I ought to say how we need to show more compassion to betrayers.... but I admit I have to show deep restraint as I have, with just a very few exceptions (but exceptions nonetheless), have little use for betrayers due to the lives they ruin out of their selfishness.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

ianos said:


> do you even read what you write?


Yes, he did. If I cherry pick your post I can make it sound terrible as well. Help her, but its funny how people get mad at other posters and then do exactly what they are complaining about.

They both screwed up. Some people are going to believe the abuse is worse, some people are going to believe the cheating is worse. Just because you don't believe his version doesn't make it any more or less relevant than your opinion.


----------



## Acabado

About the paternity tests.
Don't contact OM in any way shape or form.
Your husband is all over the map, beyond pissed of and in no shape to make sound decisions hence the contradictory demands (asking NC, even with friends who knew then demand her to get the sample from OM? WTH!). He's just telling you he's not going to give you a sh1t. F.U. Understandable. Let him calm down. 
But it makes no sense. Imagine you magically manage to get that sample from OM and it comes negative. So what? It doesn't mean the kids are his! Nosense.
The only way, asuming he wants the paternity tests done, is him giving the sample. More than that, you must do it in front of him or he can do it on his own. You just provide the tests if he wants them. Don't waste money if he doesn't.


----------



## Acabado

Be sure to eat properly. Food replacements if necesary. Also plenty of water.
Be sure he does the same.


----------



## Wazza

thatbpguy said:


> Y*ou may be right in some circumstances but I was more talking about my posts on this thread.*
> 
> That said, it's tough when betrayers come around and due to their posts (in this case not overtly, but pretty close) cause those of us betrayed to get up on our soap boxes a bit. For those of us who have had our lives so negatively impacted in horrendous ways, it's pretty understandable IMHO.
> 
> I mean, I suppose I ought to say how we need to show more compassion to betrayers.... but I admit I have to show deep retraint as I have, with just a very few exceptions (but exceptions nonetheless), have little use for betrayers due to the lives they ruin out of their selfishness.


So I part was I. 

I am further out from betrayal and successfully reconciled. I don't have the same need to vent. I get your point about the soap box, and at one stage that would have been me 

OP knows she did wrong...all I'd like to do is help and not kick the crap out of her where it is not going to help. If she left TAM over the beating, as I have seen others do, we have surely failed.


----------



## JCD

frustratedinphx said:


> *There is no trickle truth*. I did have sex with OM while trying to conceive- deplorable. I know.
> 
> I'm happy to pay for a paternity test. BH now wants me to prove it via getting a sample from OM. How that's feasible, I don't know. BH is not be willing to submit his sample and wants me to prove it. The facility won't test with hair so my only other option is to go to the state where OM is and beg for one after telling him to stay the hell away from me. I know it's BHs. If you know anything about conception, it's not medically possible it could be anyone else's.


Which just goes to show once again HIS charming personality. If she contacts OM again, she's done. So let's demand that she get a paternity test and NOT let her use a Q-Tip in his mouth for ONE SECOND.

She gets to drive 6 hours there and back (12 hours...call it 300 miles...25 mpg on average...$100 in gas alone for a woman with a THREE MONTH OLD CHILD. Classy!) I can get why he hates his wife...but is she going to abandon her child for a full day? Or did he want her to have to shlep his child all over hell and gone to meet the OM? Wonderful clear logical thinking for a VP of Tech!


Let's look at Laughing Boy here:

He emotionally abused his wife for YEARS.

He *rejected her attempts to fix things*. (The pious BSers seem to gloss over this point and the fact she is mentally unable to divorce her husband due to many reasons)

The moment he had an opportunity troll her way in front of him, he's getting naked pictures from Third World chippies...and perfectly fine with this even AFTER feeling the emotional devastation it causes...not a lot of empathy in this guy... Oh right...he was OWED a one off...(What happened to the pious bleaters of 'nothing ever justifies adultery' in HIS case? Cat got your tongue? Is the fact he got caught too early an EXCUSE? HE certainly never admitted it...but SHE'S the one to be cast into the outer darkness?)

I hope your husband is reading this. Yup, what you did, OP, was emotionally devastating, morally crappy and will drag upon your soul and your relationship if it survives.

Let me tell you another thing: you reticence in the bedroom...doesn't work for men. If you can't find an even sexuality, you would be best served by getting a divorce. Because women can say 'I love you' all day (they lie sometimes). They can cook meals and darn socks and clean the house (and they might be doing it for themselves and the men are only subsidiary beneficiaries). Nothing says 'I love you' more than taking a man inside of you. It is male emotional super glue.

So...while your husband seems 9/10ths a douchenozzle, if he was dealing with problems in the bedroom...I got some sympathy for him. I'm sure you contributed your share to the stresses of married life.

Hubby...I hope you are reading this. She might have jumped off a moral precipice, but buddy...you are the one who backed her up to the edge of the cliff.

You broke the first rule of marriage: Don't be a d*ck. 

This isn't that hard a rule to follow either.

Now...where do you go from here? She had three times the sex that she said she had. It lasted longer than she admitted. She seems remorseful. She even tried to end it By the way, good luck with that whole 'I'm getting custody thing.' Wanna bet?

By the way, threatening to make the divorce nasty? That just shows your class shining through all the way.

At this point, I'm wondering WHY she wants to stay...


----------



## JCD

InlandTXMM said:


> Personally I still can't get over 5 years of affair, particularly when you said the sex was bad, and as a successful businesswoman used to contracts and law, your only excuse was the OM blackmailed you.  Your husband isn't buying that either.


Sex is the price she paid to have someone treat her like she was special and as a human being. The sex was the least of the relationship for her.


----------



## JCD

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yes, you misunderstood.
> Many things in these threads are "obvious," but to move the thread forward, sometimes they need to be stated. She doesn't need to focus on the people who keep saying "she had sex while pregnant" which was my only point.
> 
> It'll keep coming up. so I was pointing out why some people do not believe her. That's it. Also, to drive it home, I said I'd get a DNA test because of all the trickle truth. I never said she is still trickle truthing or applying it to the sex during pregnancy or conception.
> 
> R If we are talking paternity, there is only one way and I never said he was correct for being silly. It is idiotic to tell someone no contact, try to force an end to contact and then say go get DNA by reestablishing contact.


For the LAST TIME...she did NOT have sex while pregnant. Do you understand? She's said it twice now.

What she SAID was hubby and she were trying for a baby. WHILE trying for a baby, she had sex with the OM, one assumes because the logistics worked out. She had him use a condom.

So a -3 for the sex while trying to conceive but +1 for the condom.

Please don't make her out to be worse than she is.


----------



## JCD

InlandTXMM said:


> Remember also, that we have only one side of the "husband is an a$$" excuse.
> 
> How many times does the WS point the finger at the BS as the reason? Nearly always. Rewriting the marriage is common and perfunctory.


And sometimes true.


----------



## JCD

thatbpguy said:


> Yeah, I thought about that when I wrote it. I nearly went back and deleted some of it.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for mentioning the ban hammer to remind the mods to look at me...
> 
> I do appreciate it.


You tell the WS to own up to their actions.

We are giving you 'tough love'.

How does the shoe fit? Pinches? Think about that.


----------



## ThePheonix

JCD said:


> Let's look at Laughing Boy here:
> 
> He emotionally abused his wife for YEARS.
> 
> He *rejected her attempts to fix things*. (The pious BSers seem to gloss over this point and the fact she is mentally unable to divorce her husband due to many reasons)
> 
> The moment he had an opportunity troll her way in front of him, he's getting naked pictures from Third World chippies...and perfectly fine with this even AFTER feeling the emotional devastation it causes...not a lot of empathy in this guy... Oh right...he was OWED a one off...(What happened to the pious bleaters of 'nothing ever justifies adultery' in HIS case? Cat got your tongue? Is the fact he got caught too early an EXCUSE? HE certainly never admitted it...but SHE'S the one to be cast into the outer darkness?)
> 
> I hope your husband is reading this. Yup, what you did, OP, was emotionally devastating, morally crappy and will drag upon your soul and your relationship if it survives.
> 
> Let me tell you another thing: you reticence in the bedroom...doesn't work for men. If you can't find an even sexuality, you would be best served by getting a divorce. Because women can say 'I love you' all day (they lie sometimes). They can cook meals and darn socks and clean the house (and they might be doing it for themselves and the men are only subsidiary beneficiaries). Nothing says 'I love you' more than taking a man inside of you. It is male emotional super glue.
> 
> So...while your husband seems 9/10ths a douchenozzle, if he was dealing with problems in the bedroom...I got some sympathy for him. I'm sure you contributed your share to the stresses of married life.
> 
> Hubby...I hope you are reading this. She might have jumped off a moral precipice, but buddy...you are the one who backed her up to the edge of the cliff.
> 
> You broke the first rule of marriage: Don't be a d*ck.
> 
> This isn't that hard a rule to follow either.
> 
> Now...where do you go from here? She had three times the sex that she said she had. It lasted longer than she admitted. She seems remorseful. She even tried to end it By the way, good luck with that whole 'I'm getting custody thing.' Wanna bet?
> 
> By the way, threatening to make the divorce nasty? That just shows your class shining through all the way.
> 
> At this point, I'm wondering WHY she wants to stay...


:iagree: Dang JC, that was good.


----------



## cledus_snow

for what it's worth, it does seem like you're very sorry and guilt-ridden over this situation. you seem to be one of those WS who is truly sorry. 

this is coming from one of the harshest critics around here.


that being said, it sounds like this affair might be a deal breaker for your husband. 

i believe it was the TT that did you in. you might have felt you were saving him from further hurt by being "ambiguous" about the length of the affair, but you only succeeded in compounding the lie. this was your undoing.

the only thing you can do is sit and wait for whatever comes next. it's basically out of your hands. 


the only thing i can add is this..... the paperwork isn't in your hands yet. if you really want this, work your a$$ off to show him you're gonna fight for this family..... that you're gonna fight for him. 

until those papers are in your hand, you still have time.


----------



## thatbpguy

JCD said:


> You tell the WS to own up to their actions.
> 
> We are giving you 'tough love'.
> 
> How does the shoe fit? Pinches? Think about that.


Comedic gold.

You're always good for a laugh if nothing else.


----------



## Dyokemm

Anuvia,

I'll add this to Shaggy's excellent list.

Because any POS who has the gall to go around screwing up other people's lives, in particular OP and her H's 3 children, should be destroyed in any way possible.

OP is undoubtedly paying for her part in wrecking their lives...why should this scumbag get a free pass?


----------



## LongWalk

Glad to see a TAM threat in which a discussion becomes less black and white. OP admitted she was wrong over and over. What more could she write to make people happy. She didn't ask for forgiveness from TAM. What purpose would that serve?

Divorce rates are high. Infidelity is common. This is not simply a matter of evil people sneaking into the human race like an invasion of zombies.

Some standard bits of advice are recommended without much thought. If a WS works in a bar and has an affair with regular customer who is a cocaine dealing biker. TAM can say, yeah that is a profession – bartender, barmaid – that may be incompatible with a stable family life.

But telling BS to insist that her cheating doctor husband change hospitals is unrealistic. In the case of this the thread the OP cannot just nuke her career when divorce is highly likely. The problems in their marriage are too great to make such a speculative move, even if she is willing to to be a SAHM, it has to be a based on some rational expectation.

The PosOm had over 3,000 hits when I looked yesterday. The BH wrote a brilliant but very short account of the affair. He states that divorce is the works.

As far as I can calculate, OP was not cheating when she first came to TAM.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jcd said:


> for the last time...she did not have sex while pregnant. Do you understand? She's said it twice now..


Do YOU understand I never said she did have sex while pregnant. 


> I never said she is still trickle truthing or applying it to the sex during pregnancy or conception.


Yep, right there. Good lord, you are a terrible reader when you get angry. That's me saying she isn't trickle truthing about the sex or conception.

I said people believe thatit happened because of her previous trickle truth. I am not making her out to be worse than she is, how about you stop misinterpreting my post and trying to diminish what she did. I just said they were equally at fault. If I feel it is necessary to explain myself I will, no matter how upset you get.


----------



## Rookie4

thatbpguy said:


> We are helping.
> 
> It's called tough love and teaching accountability.


 Sorry but personal attacks are NOT tough love. I am only trying to warn you and some of the other posters to tone down the rhetoric. You WILL get banned, it has happened to me. You can get your point across without attacks, like some of the other posters do. Acabado, Wazza, and Decorum come to mind. They do not condone the OP's actions, but do not attack the OP personally and always try to give advice, instead of continual insults and browbeating. Learn to be a better poster , like I had to do. It will save you from getting banned.


----------



## Rookie4

thatbpguy said:


> Yeah, I thought about that when I wrote it. I nearly went back and deleted some of it.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for mentioning the ban hammer to remind the mods to look at me...
> 
> I do appreciate it.


Dude, it happened to me, it can happen to you, too. And don't think that the Mods aren't looking, the ones on this site are pretty good at their job.


----------



## frustratedinphx

To the point about not being very sexually charged, for a long time I had a really grueling schedule. I essentially worked 12 hour days for a long time, plus dealt with the kids stuff- school assignments, doctors appointments, soccer on the weekends, , so all of this weighed on my head and sex could be tedious. I realize that it's no excuse but that's what happened to me.

I eventually got to resent my job (which I really do love doing), and when you add all of the other responsibilities of life- planning family trips, doing taxes, coordinating most repairs on the house (I'm pretty handy but have my limits) friends, etc. I just had no time for me. I haven't watched TV in years. I've always tried to make sure I didn't let myself go, but I wasn't out getting manis/pedis or keeping up with haircuts like I should. Nonetheless, I still catch looks to this day from men.

BH also was very wrapped up with work and I think while he didn't intend for it to interfere, it did. To add that with 2 small kids, they are always around except after bedtime, which we both spent working for a long time, time for sex was relegated to mornings, which were a challenge for me because I had so much to do then (maybe less so now) and weekends, which we did try to engage, but you can only lock the door with the kids running around by themselves for so long and if it was a soccer weekend- good luck!

Date nights went from weekly to non-existent when I got pregnant. I was so sick (not physically, but nausea for the first 16 wks- damn estrogen!) and when I finally got out of the fog, i was horny as hell, BUT he was just freaked about by porking his pregnant old lady. Doh! After I gave birth, I just wasn't ready. Waking up at random hours, hormones not working in my favor so it was painful and not enjoyable at all.

I never mentioned this, but almost from the time I was pregnant through when I gave birth, our home was under construction and I managed working with our general contractor and did all the design myself. It was like another full time job. I actually stopped going to the office because I was always being called home so I finally just started working there instead. I think that's what really burns me- before I caught his EA, I said "whats up" you're not yourself and he told me "I'm bored". I said "you're what?! I'm killing myself with all I have on my plate. I can give you something to do." I'm still tying up loose ends today, except that instead of to enjoy the home, it appears I'm prepping it for sale. Karma is really such a *****.

For the last 3 weeks before the tsunami of the truth hit, we had TONS of sex and it was GOOD. We had 2 staycations at nearby resorts with the kids and even though we were all piled into the same room, once or twice we found a way to do the deed- kinda icky I know, but at home it was pretty good. We even got lunch one day, had a few drinks and had a nooner- something that I am usually "too responsible" to do. It was awesome! I realize the error of my ways, but I've always beat myself up over stupid things- trivial stuff and that would weigh on me too. I'm a complete head case and realize that therapy was in order probably a long time ago.

The last thing I'll say about this is that to me, when we had sex years ago when things were bad, it frequently felt like he was using me for sex- sounds silly... BUT it felt like he would be nice to me, we'd do the deed and shortly thereafter, the meanness would start again. I had really hard time with that.

The hot and cold confuses me. I know BH is going through a swinging pendulum of emotions right now. As I divulge info in the timeline of events or just by being honest, he has this fits of rage screaming, cursing and throwing things and then he'll hug me. I just don't know how to process it.

We spent all day today, talking, working on stuff for next steps, we held each other, cried, lamented, etc. At the end of the day, he says he just can't be with me because he doesn't trust me- which I get. I'm not the kind of person to make the same mistake twice. At work, I have written processes and if an error occurs, it's documented specifically and the process changed so it NEVER happens again. It's just my personality. I know I won't be stupid enough to betray him again, but that's not enough for him and I get that.

At this point, he says he wants to be able to make his own choices since they were made for him for so long and he wants a woman that he can trust and love. I know I can be that woman- I was for a long time before all of this, even though I had my faults. I'm expecting the worst, hoping for the best and hoping that my kids don't hate me for destroying their dad's spirit. I'm really just hating life right now, but I'm sure that this is just how it goes.


----------



## Wazza

frustratedinphx said:


> To the point about not being very sexually charged, for a long time I had a really grueling schedule. I essentially worked 12 hour days for a long time, plus dealt with the kids stuff- school assignments, doctors appointments, soccer on the weekends, , so all of this weighed on my head and sex could be tedious. I realize that it's no excuse but that's what happened to me.
> 
> I eventually got to resent my job (which I really do love doing), and when you add all of the other responsibilities of life- planning family trips, doing taxes, coordinating most repairs on the house (I'm pretty handy but have my limits) friends, etc. I just had no time for me. I haven't watched TV in years. I've always tried to make sure I didn't let myself go, but I wasn't out getting manis/pedis or keeping up with haircuts like I should. Nonetheless, I still catch looks to this day from men.
> 
> BH also was very wrapped up with work and I think while he didn't intend for it to interfere, it did. To add that with 2 small kids, they are always around except after bedtime, which we both spent working for a long time, time for sex was relegated to mornings, which were a challenge for me because I had so much to do then (maybe less so now) and weekends, which we did try to engage, but you can only lock the door with the kids running around by themselves for so long and if it was a soccer weekend- good luck!
> 
> Date nights went from weekly to non-existent when I got pregnant. I was so sick (not physically, but nausea for the first 16 wks- damn estrogen!) and when I finally got out of the fog, i was horny as hell, BUT he was just freaked about by porking his pregnant old lady. Doh! After I gave birth, I just wasn't ready. Waking up at random hours, hormones not working in my favor so it was painful and not enjoyable at all.
> 
> I never mentioned this, but almost from the time I was pregnant through when I gave birth, our home was under construction and I managed working with our general contractor and did all the design myself. It was like another full time job. I actually stopped going to the office because I was always being called home so I finally just started working there instead. I think that's what really burns me- before I caught his EA, I said "whats up" you're not yourself and he told me "I'm bored". I said "you're what?! I'm killing myself with all I have on my plate. I can give you something to do." I'm still tying up loose ends today, except that instead of to enjoy the home, it appears I'm prepping it for sale. Karma is really such a *****.
> 
> For the last 3 weeks before the tsunami of the truth hit, we had TONS of sex and it was GOOD. We had 2 staycations at nearby resorts with the kids and even though we were all piled into the same room, once or twice we found a way to do the deed- kinda icky I know, but at home it was pretty good. We even got lunch one day, had a few drinks and had a nooner- something that I am usually "too responsible" to do. It was awesome! I realize the error of my ways, but I've always beat myself up over stupid things- trivial stuff and that would weigh on me too. I'm a complete head case and realize that therapy was in order probably a long time ago.
> 
> The last thing I'll say about this is that to me, when we had sex years ago when things were bad, it frequently felt like he was using me for sex- sounds silly... BUT it felt like he would be nice to me, we'd do the deed and shortly thereafter, the meanness would start again. I had really hard time with that.
> 
> The hot and cold confuses me. I know BH is going through a swinging pendulum of emotions right now. As I divulge info in the timeline of events or just by being honest, he has this fits of rage screaming, cursing and throwing things and then he'll hug me. I just don't know how to process it.
> 
> We spent all day today, talking, working on stuff for next steps, we held each other, cried, lamented, etc. At the end of the day, he says he just can't be with me because he doesn't trust me- which I get. I'm not the kind of person to make the same mistake twice. At work, I have written processes and if an error occurs, it's documented specifically and the process changed so it NEVER happens again. It's just my personality. I know I won't be stupid enough to betray him again, but that's not enough for him and I get that.
> 
> At this point, he says he wants to be able to make his own choices since they were made for him for so long and he wants a woman that he can trust and love. I know I can be that woman- I was for a long time before all of this, even though I had my faults. I'm expecting the worst, hoping for the best and hoping that my kids don't hate me for destroying their dad's spirit. I'm really just hating life right now, but I'm sure that this is just how it goes.


Two things.

1. On your deathbed..will it matter more that you managed your subcontractors well, had the money to drive around in a fur lined Porsche painted pink, etc...or that you had a good marriage? What are your priorities? (And I get totally what you are saying because I made exactly the same mistake)

2. Trust...this is to your husband if he is still reading. Since my wife's affair I no longer trust her 100% but I would not trust anyone else 100% either. My wife learned from her mistake. That doesn't take the pain away...I wish it did. But I judge her a better than average risk because of what I know about her..and my wife lies about the full extent of th affair too. Not telling you what to do. I don't know your wife and what worked for me may not work with you. But telling your wife you don't trust her is good. Maybe you will find one basis for sufficient trust to work on things. None of us are perfect....

P.S. hot and cold is, I think, normal, though probably hard for both of you to deal with...normal in as much as I felt it too.


----------



## ThePheonix

LongWalk said:


> The blackmail evidence is ugly.
> 
> You can only hope he doesn't put you up for revenge.


Blackmail evidence? What evidence? Maybe I'm missing something; Which leads me to:




Dyokemm said:


> Because any POS who has the gall to go around screwing up other people's lives, in particular OP and her H's 3 children, should be destroyed in any way possible.
> 
> OP is undoubtedly paying for her part in wrecking their lives...why should this scumbag get a free pass?


Just hope there is compelling evidence of blackmail if he hires a legal eagle to defend "his good name and reputation" against these allegations of blackmail and presents, to the court, a laundry list of damages cause by the false and highly exaggerated claims by this man seeking revenge against his wife's long time lover. You think getting a phone changed is expensive, wait until you defend yourself against a lawsuit.


----------



## frustratedinphx

Wazza said:


> Two things.
> 
> 1. On your deathbed..will it matter more that you managed your subcontractors well, had the money to drive around in a fur lined Porsche painted pink, etc...or that you had a good marriage? What are your priorities? (And I get totally what you are saying because I made exactly the same mistake)


Handling the contractors was more a function of getting it done AQAP... we had an early estimated completion date of late Feb-early Mar. Baby's due date was 3/8 and with the construction was a dedicated room for her. In fact, within weeks of learning I was pregnant we started the process. We were all so displaced because we chose to live in our home during construction. However we didn't move in until mid-April. It was a mess (literally and figuratively)... 

BUT, I agree with your point which became crystal clear to me when I working the long hours. We had a lot more money to spend, but no time to spend it. Irony at its best. So, I had been trying to be there more for my family. Getting everyone's favorite treats, making favorite dinners, cooking more ethnic food that BH liked, besides date night going for lunch me just being in the same room as him at night while he worked, spending time with friends, etc. because i _missed_ that part of my life.


----------



## Julien

frustratedinphx said:


> To the point about not being very sexually charged, for a long time I had a really grueling schedule. I essentially worked 12 hour days for a long time, plus dealt with the kids stuff- school assignments, doctors appointments, soccer on the weekends, , so all of this weighed on my head and sex could be tedious. I realize that it's no excuse but that's what happened to me.


Don't you just love it, when someone lists a bunch of excuses and ends with "I realize that it's no excuse"...
You still found time to f*ck the OM, right?


----------



## frustratedinphx

ThePheonix said:


> Just hope there is compelling evidence of blackmail if he hires a legal eagle to defend "his good name and reputation" against these allegations of blackmail and presents, to the court, a laundry list of damages cause by the false and highly exaggerated claims by this man seeking revenge against his wife's long time lover. You think getting a phone changed is expensive, wait until you defend yourself against a lawsuit.


The original reason BH found out about my A was because i took screen shots of one text conversation that I had where OM threatened to expose me and BH found the screen shots in my photostream. The previous messages from OM was to the effect of, "meet with me one more time and I'll give you all the pictures" to which I replied "I'm not dumb enough to believe that you will give me the SOLE copy of whatever you claim to have- not happening" but I deleted those messages in trying to CMA so I can't show that if I had to produce them. 

Then after i severed contact, he sent me messages again via text and Facebook threatening to do it again but in a very covert way "I have nothing to lose..." to which I replied "go ahead" and told BH to expect to see something. OM texted me back that he deduced BH knew and good luck. So, I have those. What an a$sh0le. I think he's happy my life is ruined. Misery loves company and I think he's one miserable a$sh0le.


----------



## LongWalk

Which realtor does he work for? Once this spreads enough his social media expertise will not save him
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

frustratedinphx said:


> To the point about not being very sexually charged, for a long time I had a really grueling schedule. I essentially worked 12 hour days for a long time, plus dealt with the kids stuff- school assignments, doctors appointments, soccer on the weekends, , so all of this weighed on my head and sex could be tedious. I realize that it's no excuse but that's what happened to me.
> 
> *Sorry to be blunt but that's all on you. You should have found a balance between your work and the other things. Also, you did find the time to conduct an affair. That time should have been spent either working on the marriage or working on yourself if your husband was reluctant to participate. And when I mention time I am not just talking about the physical time you spent with the OM. I am talking about the time you spent thinking about and covering up the affair. All that energy should have been used more constructively. But I'm sure you know that now.*
> 
> I eventually got to resent my job (which I really do love doing), and when you add all of the other responsibilities of life- planning family trips, doing taxes, coordinating most repairs on the house (I'm pretty handy but have my limits) friends, etc. I just had no time for me. I haven't watched TV in years. I've always tried to make sure I didn't let myself go, but I wasn't out getting manis/pedis or keeping up with haircuts like I should. Nonetheless, I still catch looks to this day from men.
> 
> *Newsflash. As long as you are a woman you will catch looks from men. You could have a hump like Quasimodo and a face like Jocelyn Wildenstein and men would still "check you out." Don't let it go to your head (again).*
> 
> BH also was very wrapped up with work and I think while he didn't intend for it to interfere, it did. To add that with 2 small kids, they are always around except after bedtime, which we both spent working for a long time, time for sex was relegated to mornings, which were a challenge for me because I had so much to do then (maybe less so now) and weekends, which we did try to engage, but you can only lock the door with the kids running around by themselves for so long and if it was a soccer weekend- good luck!
> 
> *When you were dating you worked your azz off to attract your husband and he worked his azz off to "land" you. That work needs to not only continue but to increase in order to maintain a solid healthy marriage when other factors start to pull you apart. If you do end up reconciling understand that the amount of work you both will need to do must continue forever if you truly wish to have a healthy and strong marriage. The focus may change from recover to maintanence but the work will still be ongoing.*
> 
> Date nights went from weekly to non-existent when I got pregnant. I was so sick (not physically, but nausea for the first 16 wks- damn estrogen!) and when I finally got out of the fog, i was horny as hell, BUT he was just freaked about by porking his pregnant old lady. Doh! After I gave birth, I just wasn't ready. Waking up at random hours, hormones not working in my favor so it was painful and not enjoyable at all.
> 
> *And this has happened to virtually every other woman since the beginning of time. Par for the course I'm afraid.*
> 
> I never mentioned this, but almost from the time I was pregnant through when I gave birth, our home was under construction and I managed working with our general contractor and did all the design myself. It was like another full time job. I actually stopped going to the office because I was always being called home so I finally just started working there instead. I think that's what really burns me- before I caught his EA, I said "whats up" you're not yourself and he told me "I'm bored". I said "you're what?! I'm killing myself with all I have on my plate. I can give you something to do." I'm still tying up loose ends today, except that instead of to enjoy the home, it appears I'm prepping it for sale. Karma is really such a *****.
> 
> *Again, this is on you. You sound like someone who finds a need to take charge and ensure that things go according to the way you want them to. You need to learn to delegate some of the responsibilities and focus yourself on what is really important. Learn to prioritize better and let some of the nonsense go.*
> 
> For the last 3 weeks before the tsunami of the truth hit, we had TONS of sex and it was GOOD. We had 2 staycations at nearby resorts with the kids and even though we were all piled into the same room, once or twice we found a way to do the deed- kinda icky I know, but at home it was pretty good. We even got lunch one day, had a few drinks and had a nooner- something that I am usually "too responsible" to do. It was awesome! I realize the error of my ways, but I've always beat myself up over stupid things- trivial stuff and that would weigh on me too. I'm a complete head case and realize that therapy was in order probably a long time ago.
> 
> *Sounds like a little bit of hyper bonding. Its normal but it usually doesn't last without conscious help from the two of you.*
> 
> The last thing I'll say about this is that to me, when we had sex years ago when things were bad, it frequently felt like he was using me for sex- sounds silly... BUT it felt like he would be nice to me, we'd do the deed and shortly thereafter, the meanness would start again. I had really hard time with that.
> 
> *You have stated that he has become a better husband. If this is still the case then it is something he needs to work on. Sex should be enjoyable for both spouses. If its not then BOTH spouses need to take a look and see why there is a disconnect.*
> 
> The hot and cold confuses me. I know BH is going through a swinging pendulum of emotions right now. As I divulge info in the timeline of events or just by being honest, he has this fits of rage screaming, cursing and throwing things and then he'll hug me. I just don't know how to process it.
> 
> *Welcome to the roller coaster. You'll be on it for a long time. Get familiar with it if you can't find a way to get comfortable with it. Its here to stay at least for a while if you intend on trying to R. He'll eventually learn to tone down and channel his anger but his emotions are raw right now.*
> 
> We spent all day today, talking, working on stuff for next steps, we held each other, cried, lamented, etc. At the end of the day, he says he just can't be with me because he doesn't trust me- which I get. I'm not the kind of person to make the same mistake twice. At work, I have written processes and if an error occurs, it's documented specifically and the process changed so it NEVER happens again. It's just my personality. I know I won't be stupid enough to betray him again, but that's not enough for him and I get that.
> 
> *He's going to go back and forth. Until the judge slams down his gavel on your divorce keep fighting for your marriage. Work on making yourself a better person and he may start to see that you are worth a second chance.*
> 
> At this point, he says he wants to be able to make his own choices since they were made for him for so long and he wants a woman that he can trust and love. I know I can be that woman- I was for a long time before all of this, even though I had my faults. I'm expecting the worst, hoping for the best and hoping that my kids don't hate me for destroying their dad's spirit. I'm really just hating life right now, but I'm sure that this is just how it goes.
> 
> *You are going to have a lot of strong emotions right now. You can either let them bring you down and spend all day in bed crying for what might have been or you can take those emotions and channel them in a direction that improves you as a person, a wife and a mother. Its all up to you.*


----------



## Acabado

frustratedinphx said:


> The hot and cold confuses me. I know BH is going through a swinging pendulum of emotions right now. As I divulge info in the timeline of events or just by being honest, he has this fits of rage screaming, cursing and throwing things and then he'll hug me. I just don't know how to process it.


He doesn't know how to process it either. It's what it is.

To your husband:
You claims you don't trust her. Understandable. Why do you believe your wife can trust you? You cheated on her too and got busted.
Trust can be regained if you are willing to try. Just a tought.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Re: sex, I don't think you understood or addressed my post at all.


----------



## Anuvia

frustratedinphx said:


> To the point about not being very sexually charged, for a long time I had a really grueling schedule. I essentially worked 12 hour days for a long time, plus dealt with the kids stuff- school assignments, doctors appointments, soccer on the weekends, , so all of this weighed on my head and sex could be tedious. I realize that it's no excuse but that's what happened to me.
> 
> I eventually got to resent my job (which I really do love doing), and when you add all of the other responsibilities of life- planning family trips, doing taxes, coordinating most repairs on the house (I'm pretty handy but have my limits) friends, etc. I just had no time for me. I haven't watched TV in years. I've always tried to make sure I didn't let myself go, but I wasn't out getting manis/pedis or keeping up with haircuts like I should. Nonetheless, I still catch looks to this day from men.
> 
> BH also was very wrapped up with work and I think while he didn't intend for it to interfere, it did. To add that with 2 small kids, they are always around except after bedtime, which we both spent working for a long time, time for sex was relegated to mornings, which were a challenge for me because I had so much to do then (maybe less so now) and weekends, which we did try to engage, but you can only lock the door with the kids running around by themselves for so long and if it was a soccer weekend- good luck!
> 
> Date nights went from weekly to non-existent when I got pregnant. I was so sick (not physically, but nausea for the first 16 wks- damn estrogen!) and when I finally got out of the fog, i was horny as hell, BUT he was just freaked about by porking his pregnant old lady. Doh! After I gave birth, I just wasn't ready. Waking up at random hours, hormones not working in my favor so it was painful and not enjoyable at all.
> 
> I never mentioned this, but almost from the time I was pregnant through when I gave birth, our home was under construction and I managed working with our general contractor and did all the design myself. It was like another full time job. I actually stopped going to the office because I was always being called home so I finally just started working there instead. I think that's what really burns me- before I caught his EA, I said "whats up" you're not yourself and he told me "I'm bored". I said "you're what?! I'm killing myself with all I have on my plate. I can give you something to do." I'm still tying up loose ends today, except that instead of to enjoy the home, it appears I'm prepping it for sale. Karma is really such a *****.
> 
> For the last 3 weeks before the tsunami of the truth hit, we had TONS of sex and it was GOOD. We had 2 staycations at nearby resorts with the kids and even though we were all piled into the same room, once or twice we found a way to do the deed- kinda icky I know, but at home it was pretty good. We even got lunch one day, had a few drinks and had a nooner- something that I am usually "too responsible" to do. It was awesome! I realize the error of my ways, but I've always beat myself up over stupid things- trivial stuff and that would weigh on me too. I'm a complete head case and realize that therapy was in order probably a long time ago.
> 
> The last thing I'll say about this is that to me, when we had sex years ago when things were bad, it frequently felt like he was using me for sex- sounds silly... BUT it felt like he would be nice to me, we'd do the deed and shortly thereafter, the meanness would start again. I had really hard time with that.
> 
> The hot and cold confuses me. I know BH is going through a swinging pendulum of emotions right now. As I divulge info in the timeline of events or just by being honest, he has this fits of rage screaming, cursing and throwing things and then he'll hug me. I just don't know how to process it.
> 
> We spent all day today, talking, working on stuff for next steps, we held each other, cried, lamented, etc. At the end of the day, he says he just can't be with me because he doesn't trust me- which I get. *I'm not the kind of person to make the same mistake twice.* At work, I have written processes and if an error occurs, it's documented specifically and the process changed so it NEVER happens again. It's just my personality. I know I won't be stupid enough to betray him again, but that's not enough for him and I get that.
> 
> At this point, he says he wants to be able to make his own choices since they were made for him for so long and he wants a woman that he can trust and love. I know I can be that woman- I was for a long time before all of this, even though I had my faults. I'm expecting the worst, hoping for the best and hoping that my kids don't hate me for destroying their dad's spirit. I'm really just hating life right now, but I'm sure that this is just how it goes.


This kinda stood out.


----------



## Anuvia

Julien said:


> Don't you just love it, when someone lists a bunch of excuses and ends with "I realize that it's no excuse"...
> You still found time to f*ck the OM, right?


:iagree:
This was why I made my earlier comment and a handful of people jumped on me about it.


----------



## ThePheonix

frustratedinphx said:


> The previous messages from OM was to the effect of, "meet with me one more time and I'll give you all the pictures" to which I replied "I'm not dumb enough to believe that you will give me the SOLE copy of whatever you claim to have- not happening" but I deleted those messages in trying to CMA so I can't show that if I had to produce them.
> 
> Then after i severed contact, he sent me messages again via text and Facebook threatening to do it again but in a very covert way "I have nothing to lose..." to which I replied "go ahead" and told BH to expect to see something. OM texted me back that he deduced BH knew and good luck. So, I have those. What an a$sh0le. I think he's happy my life is ruined. Misery loves company and I think he's one miserable a$sh0le.





LongWalk said:


> Blackmail is documented by screen shots on Cheaterville. I will send the via PM but will not post without OP's permission. She is not the author of the exposé.


First please understand that I am giving my thoughts and observation based solely on the limited information provided and therefore should not be construed as legal advice. Please seek qualified legal advice if needed .
Second, I agree the guys is an A-hole and I agree since you did not publish the cheaterville, and possibly other article in respect to this individual, you can't personally be held liable. 
Nevertheless, from the three screenshots I'm looking at, in my opinion it would be a stretch to show the comments he made rises to the level of blackmail. What am I missing? 
In the final analysis, I strongly suggest your husband consider if his activities are going to turn into a Pyrrhic victory. Remember the old Chinese proverb, "Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves."


----------



## Squeakr

Anuvia said:


> This kinda stood out.


I agree with this!! Especially since she admits that her EA/PA went on for 5 years! Sounds like it was the same "mistake" (as the OP likes to call it, but it was a calculated choice/ decision and not a mistake OP own your errors and actions!) so your statement is nothing more than a lie to fool your H and gain his trust again. If you truly believed what you wrote we would be discussing a ONS and not a 5 year EA/PA. 

Of course the mistake that you could be referring to is getting caught, in which case I could believe that one! You'll never make this decision and get caught again!


----------



## Anuvia

ThePheonix said:


> First please understand that I am giving my thoughts and observation based solely on the limited information provided and therefore should not be construed as legal advice. Please seek qualified legal advice if needed .
> *Second, I agree the guys is an A-hole and I agree since you did not publish the cheaterville, and possibly other article in respect to this individual, you can't personally be held liable.
> Nevertheless, from the three screenshots I'm looking at, in my opinion it would be a stretch to show the comments he made rises to the level of blackmail. What am I missing?
> In the final analysis, I strongly suggest your husband consider if his activities are going to turn into a Pyrrhic victory. Remember the old Chinese proverb, "Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves."*


Quoted for truth. While the OM might be an a$$ I think it was a bad move to post his information and picture publicly and to slander him. He didn't make any martial vows to the OP's husband. He wasn't the one that cheated on the husband. 
This was a five year long relationship that the OP had with the OM. I understand that the husband is upset and angry at the OM but his wife wasn't coerced into betraying her husband and marriage vows. That was a decision she made several times voluntarily over the course of the five years.

The OM shouldn't even be a factor at this stage of the game. This should be between her and her husband. The OM is probably being used as a scapegoat to help absolve the OP of her responsibility in the five year long relationship.


----------



## Squeakr

Anuvia said:


> Quoted for truth. While the OM might be an a$$ I think it was a bad move to post his information and picture publicly and to slander him. He didn't make any martial vows to the OP's husband. He wasn't the one that cheated on the husband.
> This was a five year long relationship that the OP had with the OM. I understand that the husband is upset and angry at the OM but his wife wasn't coerced into betraying her husband and marriage vows. That was a decision she made voluntarily over the course of the five years.


It is not slander if it is the truth!! 

He didn't cheat on the H, but he is a cheater and home wrecker, as he knew the OP was married which makes him responsible for his actions, and now he is paying for them. He has the morals and standards of a cheater (and we don't know that he wasn't cheating on someone as well). In my opinion if it looks like a duck, walks and swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then guess what it is???


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

Op, your Dday 1 and 2 are too recent. The ball is in your BS court and you got five yrs to process this A and outcome but he is too recent. He has to process it and come to a decision so he need time. Let him take his time. Dont pressure him to take a decision now (it wont we favorable to you). Give him space but dont sit ideal hoping he will get over it soon with time.

Do the paternity test, Write the time line, disclose anything if you stil withhold to save him or marriage. brutual honesty is a must. Answer what ever he asks, Show him that life with you will not be as horrible as he think now, show it with your love and care.Take care of your kid (Remember they are about to loose their happy home because of your selfishness and cowardliness) so spend quality time with your children. Then take care of yourself. dont forget to Eat and sleep. 

Do what ever you can to help your husband heal without looking for the out come.


----------



## Julien

Anuvia said:


> Quoted for truth. While the OM might be an a$$ I think it was a bad move to post his information and picture publicly and to slander him. He didn't make any martial vows to the OP's husband. He wasn't the one that cheated on the husband.
> This was a five year long relationship that the OP had with the OM. I understand that the husband is upset and angry at the OM but his wife wasn't coerced into betraying her husband and marriage vows. That was a decision she made several times voluntarily over the course of the five years.
> 
> The OM shouldn't even be a factor at this stage of the game. This should be between her and her husband. The OM is probably being used as a scapegoat to help absolve the OP of her responsibility in the five year long relationship.


OM had no respect for OP's marriage. He will do it again and destroy another family. Plus, he blackmails her? Please... He deserves to be dealt with. He was sticking it to her for 5 years, for Christ's sake. Personally, I'd be pissed if that happened to me and I think posting him on Cheaterville is justice well served.

Every time someone doesn't agree with posting on Cheaterville, I tell them to Read SomedayDig's thread, then come back and tell me if posting the OM on Cheaterville isn't productive.


----------



## ThePheonix

Squeakr said:


> and now he is paying for them.


Folks may be over estimating what this "negative" publicity is going to do to this guy. To some he looks like a pariah and predator . To others he may look like the handsome, rugged and single playboy who seduces married women and whos skills keep them coming back for more. In other words, the proverbial "bad boy" that many women go nuts over and so desperately want to fix.


----------



## Dyokemm

Anuvia and ThePhoenix,

You two are both wrong about the slander and legal repercussions. It is obvious intent to coerce continuation of the affair on his part. And no lawyer could ever successfully twist it otherwise.

And slander is not even possible because the info is TRUE. Slander is the act of spreading false information that the person KNOWS to be false. So even if it was false info, the POS would have to prove the H knew it was false to even win a case.

Since scumbag did have the affair and did attempt to coerce its continuation by threatening to expose her in the texts, he has no legal basis for anything. Period. End of story.

And if s**tbag decides to sue anyway to harass OP and her H out of anger or shame, he would instantly open himself up to a countersuit to cover at least their legal costs, if not damages for intentional infliction of emotional suffering since he is compounding the trauma of shattering a family with his scummy behavior by launching a frivolous and unwarranted lawsuit in addition.


----------



## LongWalk

GutPunch pointed out that Cheaterville has a risk. The partner on Cheaterville can post his AP on Cheaterville in return. The damage then is to the children. So, Cheaterville is great but not perfect.


----------



## ThePheonix

Anuvia said:


> The OM shouldn't even be a factor at this stage of the game. This should be between her and her husband. The OM is probably being used as a scapegoat to help absolve the OP of her responsibility in the five year long relationship.


:iagree: Guys, more than gals, seem to want to blame the other party for their wives indiscretions. I'm not on board with this line of thinking.


----------



## Dyokemm

ThePhoenix,

You can't control how other will view him, that's true.

But how does that have any bearing on whether the POS deserves to be outed publicly for being a scumbag?

To this day, some people admire and honor true trash like Hitler and Stalin. Does that mean we shouldn't point out what they really were because some people will still admire them?

Scum deserves to be called for what it is. 

In fact, public outing is a mild punishment from what the would have received in the past. 

Modern societies have now banned the price a betrayed spouse used to be able to extract from the person who helped destroy their family and children's lives. 

About the only option left to a BS is to expose garbage for what it is, since the government and society refuse to do anything about it.

If you ask me, they still get off too light for the damage and ruination they bring into others lives, especially innocent children of the M.


----------



## cledus_snow

> What an a$sh0le. I think he's happy my life is ruined. Misery loves company and I think he's one miserable a$sh0le.


for sure he's an a-hole, but you're the one to blame for all your troubles. 

like he said- "I have nothing to lose." he's actually quite right, being single and all.


your husband's reaction to all this is indicative that there are those that will absolutely not put-up with a cheating spouse- a total deal breaker. 

i think this interpretation fits your situation to a T: _"A deal breaker is ‘the catch’ that a particular individual cannot overlook and ultimately outweighs any redeeming quality the individual may possess."_


----------



## ThePheonix

Dyokemm said:


> Anuvia and ThePhoenix,
> 
> Since scumbag did have the affair and did attempt to coerce its continuation by threatening to expose her in the texts, he has no legal basis for anything. Period. End of story.


What we are talking about is Liable (written ) as opposed to Slander (oral). Assume however you are 100% correct, how much time, effort and cost is going to be involved in defending a possible action? Maybe it is. If he files, the defendants will get a competent attorney and fight it out in court and the evidence will stand for itself. 
Here's a better question. What if this guy takes the low road and simply "counters" on cheaterville that the defendant's wife is a cheater and man user who lead him on for five years making him believe she was his soulmate convincing him she was going to leave her husband, playing both him and the husband as a couple of fools? (with a couple of pictures as icing on the cake)


----------



## Wazza

The thing is, the good guys don't always win. Sometimes you just have to take that.

In my case OM felt no consequences. Taking him down would have meant taking my wife down. It would have had financial implications we could not absorb. It would have destroyed my kids lives.

I blame both my wife and OM for what happened. It is a sh1t sandwich and in the end I just had to eat it.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: I had it all threw it all away...*



Wazza said:


> I blame both my wife and OM for what happened. It is a sh1t sandwich and in the end I just had to eat it.


However a truly remorseful wife will help you eat that sandwich. It may not make it taste any better but half a sh1t sandwich is better than a whole sh1t sandwich.


----------



## Wazza

bfree said:


> However a truly remorseful wife will help you eat that sandwich. It may not make it taste any better but half a sh1t sandwich is better than a whole sh1t sandwich.


Yeah, she got her feed...sadly more than enough food to go around, and a hell of an aftertaste.


----------



## Shaggy

I'm curious , are the posters who are most against posting of cheaterville ex APs or are you BS?

If you are former APs why do you feel you shouldn't suffer consequences for having an affair with a married person?


----------



## LongWalk

Shaggy said:


> I'm curious , are the posters who are most against posting of cheaterville ex APs or are you BS?
> 
> If you are former APs why do you feel you shouldn't suffer consequences for having an affair with a married person?


Shaggy, I suggest taking an even more macro view of Cheaterville. No fault divorce removed adultery as behavior punishable, according to civil statutes. Effectively, there is no officially sanctioned punishment for infidelity.

Divorcing couples has two means of exacting revenge: destruction of wealth and alienation of children. So, the lack of legal sanction to address adultery creates stress on families in acrimonious divorces.

Cheaterville is popular because is a form of revenge for behavior that is legal. It is a virtual letter A.

It seems good in many but not all cases. Some TAM posters don't bother to fix the spelling of their Cheaterville posts. That undermines the impact. So far, though I have not seen a OP regret having turned to Cheaterville.

Clearly Cheaterville not free all consequences.


----------



## realist

I know i should have stopped reading at "one thing led to another"
I hope he divorces you and go after the Brazilian girl,she is probably more loyal,respectful and looks 100 times better than you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ThePheonix

Shaggy said:


> I'm curious , are the posters who are most against posting of cheaterville ex APs or are you BS?


To reiterate, you can be sued for liable by posting untrue statements about people. The truth is the best defense in liable or slander cases. For your own protection, if you post something about somebody, you better be able to prove it's true. 

I look at Cheatersville as a place for exposing the person who cheated on and betrayed you. ( and get in a couple of good licks before packing up and going home) I don't understand why folks want to post the other party while seemingly protecting their spouse from exposure and in some cases, characterizing the other party as the evil pied piper who led their spouse astray. 
It's their own spouse, not the other party, who betrayed them. The other party, as I see it, is an opportunist but not cause of the betrayal. I find it somewhat hypocritical to post the other party and exclude your spouse. But that's just me. 

This particular case we're dealing in this thread appears to be a train wreak anyway you want to slice it.:scratchhead:


----------



## Onmyway

ThePheonix said:


> To reiterate, you can be sued for liable by posting untrue statements about people. The truth is the best defense in liable or slander cases. For your own protection, if you post something about somebody, you better be able to prove it's true.
> 
> I look at Cheatersville as a place for exposing the person who cheated on and betrayed you. ( and get in a couple of good licks before packing up and going home) I don't understand why folks want to post the other party while seemingly protecting their spouse from exposure and in some cases, characterizing the other party as the evil pied piper who led their spouse astray.
> It's their own spouse, not the other party, who betrayed them. The other party, as I see it, is an opportunist but not cause of the betrayal. I find it somewhat hypocritical to post the other party and exclude your spouse. But that's just me.
> 
> This particular case we're dealing in this thread appears to be a train wreak anyway you want to slice it.:scratchhead:


You are indeed correct, but not all situations are the same. 

Suppose that the OM/OW was "friends" with the BS and had the A anyways, and say that the BS and WS are attempting to R. Isn't it fair enough to say that if the WS is doing all of the heavy lifting and work required for R that they already have punishment enough and a posting on Cheaterville could be counter productive to both the WS and the BS. How would the BS feel about the possibility of a large number of people knowing, strangers and casual relationships both, as well as closer friends not privy to what happened.

Should the AP be able to walk away with no repercussions in this situation?

There are numerous grey areas involved here.

I am personally happy as can be that POSOM comes up as the second search result when his name is searched. It also makes me very happy to think that his father, a bishop of the local Morman church shares the same name, particularly since when I sought his help in stopping further contact between my WW and his son, he summarily ignored me.

I posted nothing but the impersonal truth and minor bewilderment in his Cheaterville posting, and I am very secure in the fact that nothing that he could do can ever effect me, legally speaking. Particularly since I live in one of the few states that allows lawsuits for alienation of affection against an AP. So he has that and any other counter suit to worry about if he tries anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm

ThePhoenix,

Actually, they have to prove you knew the info was false and spread it anyway.

I think both people should be exposed for cheating as they both exhibited s****y behavior that destroyed lives.

I personally don't understand why some people don't want to destroy the person who screwed their life up without provocation, and I feel even more strongly if children's lives are torn apart also.

But I certainly don't judge those people and feel they are mistaken. That is their choice in a free world. 

So I don't understand why you harp on people who have a very different personality then you. You don't see a need to pay back those who wrong you. That's fine.

Others have no problem with a little vengeance.


----------



## JCD

Gentlemen and ladies...the issue is moot. He is posted. The Husband had the sand to do this (I wish more men did it).

So arguing whether he should or should not, what moral or legal implications he faces...well...too late. It's done.

So we return you to your program already in progress...


----------



## ianos

I've been thinking that It would be very interesting if your H post his version since he's reading this thread, unless he agrees with your's
It's not unusual both spouses post here and he''ll get suport and advices from people who have been through similar situations.
Just a thought.


----------



## ThePheonix

Dyokemm said:


> ThePhoenix,
> 
> Actually, they have to prove you knew the info was false and spread it anyway.


I suggest you read Time, Inc. v. Firestone, Supreme Court (1976) and see if you reach that same conclusion.


----------



## Acabado

realist said:


> I know i should have stopped reading at "one thing led to another"
> I hope he divorces you and go after *the Brazilian girl*, she *is* probably more *loyal, respectful* and looks 100 times better than you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:scratchhead:
Seriously?
Up is down, left is right.


----------



## ThePheonix

JCD said:


> So arguing whether he should or should not, what moral or legal implications he faces...well...too late. It's done.


You just want to take the fun out of it, JC.


----------



## JCD

ThePheonix said:


> You just want to take the fun out of it, JC.


Yes...it is just SO MUCH FUN to wade through another 5 pages of people quibbling about an opinionated moral point when the purpose of the site is to HELP the people involved.

SHE cheated and wants to stay with her husband. So, as a group, we are obligated to try and help her do that, not tell her what a third person should do morally or take pot shots at her to make us feel better about how miserable a human being she is.

I don't mind if they take pot shots AND try to help... (After all, we don't get paid...)

But you got to do both. Not directed at anyone. Just a mission statement.


----------



## ThePheonix

JCD said:


> Yes...it is just SO MUCH FUN to wade through another 5 pages of people quibbling about an opinionated moral point when the purpose of the site is to HELP the people involved.


Well I see as a Comedian I need to keep my day job.


----------



## Dyokemm

ThePhoenix,

The reasoning behind that decision is that Time was repeating allegations of adultery in the divorce proceeding while the original court litigation had specifically NOT acknowledged the validity of these claims.

Time was making a statement on the divorce decision that was not established as true in the case, but they were presenting it as if it was.

Firestone was able to prove from the court paperwork that Time knew the statement was not established fact.

So this has no bearing whatsoever on posting a POS on Cheaterville. He would have to prove that the allegation was false and OP's H had clear reason to suspect it was.

I think the screenshots pretty much blow his case out of the water, even without the confession of the affair by OP.


----------



## realist

Acabado said:


> :scratchhead:
> Seriously?
> Up is down, left is right.


Nope,i stand by my statement


> she is probably more *loyal, respectful *and looks 100 times better than *you*


Keyword: you[OP]


----------



## lovewins

I am the BS, the BH of the OP of this thread. 

No, I don't agree with my wife's 2007 observations, or the excuses that followed while she had the affair.

I was half the monster she made me out to be...and she was the other half at the worst part of marriage in 2007.

I have no interest in defending myself at this time, but rather to focus on picking up the pieces. 

The education I have received from TAM through this process and observing the commentary of both our experience and other threads, good and bad, has been tremendously helpful. I thank all of you for that, regardless of your position. 

I will say more, and follow up on this thread, but not today. That is a promise.


----------



## Rookie4

Wazza said:


> The thing is, the good guys don't always win. Sometimes you just have to take that.
> 
> In my case OM felt no consequences. Taking him down would have meant taking my wife down. It would have had financial implications we could not absorb. It would have destroyed my kids lives.
> 
> I blame both my wife and OM for what happened. It is a sh1t sandwich and in the end I just had to eat it.


No, Wazza, you don't. I didn't and won't. My self respect would not allow it. The only one who ate any crap was Sweetie and she volunteered to do it. You are a good guy, but I've always thought that you let your wife slide much more than I would have done.


----------



## warlock07

lovewins said:


> I am the BS, the BH of the OP of this thread.
> 
> No, I don't agree with my wife's 2007 observations, or the excuses that followed while she had the affair.
> 
> I was half the monster she made me out to be...and she was the other half at the worst part of marriage in 2007.
> 
> I have no interest in defending myself at this time, but rather to focus on picking up the pieces.
> 
> The education I have received from TAM through this process and observing the commentary of both our experience and other threads, good and bad, has been tremendously helpful. I thank all of you for that, regardless of your position.
> 
> I will say more, and follow up on this thread, but not today. That is a promise.


Glad you posted. She was making herself a martyr in her posts


----------



## Anuvia

lovewins said:


> I am the BS, the BH of the OP of this thread.
> 
> No, I don't agree with my wife's 2007 observations, or the excuses that followed while she had the affair.
> 
> I was half the monster she made me out to be...and she was the other half at the worst part of marriage in 2007.
> 
> I have no interest in defending myself at this time, but rather to focus on picking up the pieces.
> 
> The education I have received from TAM through this process and observing the commentary of both our experience and other threads, good and bad, has been tremendously helpful. I thank all of you for that, regardless of your position.
> 
> I will say more, and follow up on this thread, but not today. That is a promise.


Hang in there buddy. Don't let the cheating wife run game on you. That was the intent of this thread. As a previous poster said, she was making herself as a martyr. We're here to help you.


----------



## Wazza

Rookie4 said:


> No, Wazza, you don't. I didn't and won't. My self respect would not allow it. The only one who ate any crap was Sweetie and she volunteered to do it. You are a good guy, but I've always thought that you let your wife slide much more than I would have done.


OM was one of my wife's tutors at college. Clear conflict of interest given he was assessing her grades. So exposing OM would have made a difficulty for him, but perhaps also for my wife, in a line of study that was the foundation of a successful career. Do the maths and you will see over a million dollars worth of impact in lost salary. That money contributes to a mortgage paid, opportunities for kids, nice holidays. 

That was my choice. I take down the OM, make that sort of difference to my future, and maybe earn him a reprimand of some sort. Either way was distasteful.

The question of consequences for my wife was a different question, but basically the same problem....every option was distasteful. But the context of my comment was revenge. Any revenge I exacted on OM had a price for me.


----------



## JCD

lovewins said:


> I am the BS, the BH of the OP of this thread.
> 
> No, I don't agree with my wife's 2007 observations, or the excuses that followed while she had the affair.
> 
> I was half the monster she made me out to be...and she was the other half at the worst part of marriage in 2007.
> 
> I have no interest in defending myself at this time, but rather to focus on picking up the pieces.
> 
> The education I have received from TAM through this process and observing the commentary of both our experience and other threads, good and bad, has been tremendously helpful. I thank all of you for that, regardless of your position.
> 
> I will say more, and follow up on this thread, but not today. That is a promise.


Good. I was hard on you, but you have your story too. I am more than prepared to modify my stance as I am better informed.


----------



## Wazza

lovewins said:


> I am the BS, the BH of the OP of this thread.
> 
> No, I don't agree with my wife's 2007 observations, or the excuses that followed while she had the affair.
> 
> I was half the monster she made me out to be...and she was the other half at the worst part of marriage in 2007.
> 
> I have no interest in defending myself at this time, but rather to focus on picking up the pieces.
> 
> The education I have received from TAM through this process and observing the commentary of both our experience and other threads, good and bad, has been tremendously helpful. I thank all of you for that, regardless of your position.
> 
> I will say more, and follow up on this thread, but not today. That is a promise.


Welcome.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

lovewins said:


> I am the BS, the BH of the OP of this thread.
> 
> No, I don't agree with my wife's 2007 observations, or the excuses that followed while she had the affair.
> 
> I was half the monster she made me out to be...and she was the other half at the worst part of marriage in 2007.
> 
> I have no interest in defending myself at this time, *but rather to focus on picking up the pieces.*
> 
> The education I have received from TAM through this process and observing the commentary of both our experience and other threads, good and bad, has been tremendously helpful. I thank all of you for that, regardless of your position.
> 
> I will say more, and follow up on this thread, but not today. That is a promise.


Are you picking up the pieces to move on, or to try and put them back together? Your WS had written that you are divorcing her. I would like to hear it directly from you.

If you are divorcing her, is it because you found out that her EA was really a PA, or because you found out that she had "downplayed"(her words), or lied(my words), about what she really had done, for years?

Either way, many of us would very much like to read your side of the story. I'm guessing that it'll be much less of a "fictional" piece than her's was. The typical tail of "Things were bad when they cheated, they stopped cheating, things got better and then the BS found out".

It's almost like they all use a basic form letter and just fill in their personal details.


----------



## ianos

lovewins said:


> I am the BS, the BH of the OP of this thread.
> 
> No, I don't agree with my wife's 2007 observations, or the excuses that followed while she had the affair.
> 
> *I was half the monster she made me out to be...and she was the other half *at the worst part of marriage in 2007.
> 
> I have no interest in defending myself at this time, but rather to focus on picking up the pieces.
> 
> The education I have received from TAM through this process and observing the commentary of both our experience and other threads, good and bad, has been tremendously helpful. I thank all of you for that, regardless of your position.
> 
> I will say more, and follow up on this thread, but not today. That is a promise.



If I understand correctly- and if i'm wrong i apologise in advance-you accept your share for the destruction of your marriage so either you want advices of how to get throught your D psychologically, or help for your R that's a good start regardless of what you choose.
Also have in mind that a lot of people here waiting for your version just to turn this thread into a soap opera.


----------



## MattMatt

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PamJ

<<I am the BS, the BH of the OP of this thread. 

No, I don't agree with my wife's 2007 observations, or the excuses that followed while she had the affair.>>

Most of us understood that your WW was downplaying while admitting, it's what they do, they have to, it's survival mode to only admit what you have to and then try to justify it while they tell you it's unjustifiable.

My H did it, still does it a little, but he's trying to "explain" not excuse, he says. It may or may not be true, unfortunately for the WS, the BS is in no mood to accept these insights into their reasons for their behavior. After the BS has been lied to nothing is believable, and when my H tells me such things, "we really WERE just friends at the end, etc." we really WEREN'T talking,texting that much" I just shrug my shoulders and say "I'll never know".

After a while they accept that they cannot make you believe them and eventually the truth can come out.

The sad thing in my H's case is he KNEW it was wrong and was upset with my step-son for cheating on and THEN divorcing his wife and two young boys several years ago. He told him fix your marriage or divorce THEN get the girlfriend, not before, and he even told me now he is hypocritical in many ways.

I am sorry this has happened to you and your family. It's sad that people have no foresight whatsoever, only hindsight, and lives, and especially, children's lives get torn up in the process.


----------



## Suspecting

MattMatt said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This seems like a good idea.


----------



## ThePheonix

Dyokemm said:


> The reasoning behind that decision is that Time was repeating allegations of adultery in the divorce proceeding while the original court litigation had specifically NOT acknowledged the validity of these claims.


I don't want to highjack this thread with a legal debate. One poster already expressed their displeasure with getting off the subject. 

I addressed the "Cheatersville" topic to raise a warning flag about publishing negative about another individual you may not be able to prove. Since your advice, "don't worry, the person will have to prove you knew it was false", I'm giving the following rebuttal so the readers, who may be future publishers, can decide how far they what to push the envelope with the knowledge that two reasonably intelligent people have different opinions.

A Court cannot award damages to "public official" for defamation unless he proves the statement was knowingly false or in reckless disregard of whether it was true or not. Your statement that, "Actually, they have to prove you knew the info was false and spread it anyway" is essential correct regarding public officials. (in accordance with NY Times v Sullivan. 

I had hoped to draw attention to the difference between "public official" and private citizen. Because private citizens have less opportunities for rebuttal than public officials, the publisher of defamatory statements cannot claim the New York Times defense against liability for defamation The courts interest in compensating injury to a private citizens is greater than that for public officials and the standards for proving malice and injury are lower. Bottom line, in my interpretation, is that a private citizen does not have to prove the defendant knowing published a false statement as would a public official.


----------



## carmen ohio

ThePheonix said:


> I don't want to highjack this thread with a legal debate . . .


Then don't.


----------



## Rookie4

Wazza said:


> OM was one of my wife's tutors at college. Clear conflict of interest given he was assessing her grades. So exposing OM would have made a difficulty for him, but perhaps also for my wife, in a line of study that was the foundation of a successful career. Do the maths and you will see over a million dollars worth of impact in lost salary. That money contributes to a mortgage paid, opportunities for kids, nice holidays.
> 
> That was my choice. I take down the OM, make that sort of difference to my future, and maybe earn him a reprimand of some sort. Either way was distasteful.
> 
> The question of consequences for my wife was a different question, but basically the same problem....every option was distasteful. But the context of my comment was revenge. Any revenge I exacted on OM had a price for me.


Therein lies the difference between you and me. what you view as revenge, I would have viewed as a public service. People in authority need to be held to higher standards commensurate with their place in society. I would have smeared the f*cker but good, and your cheater could have learned the real-life consequences of dishonesty. But this is a t/j and we've disagreed about it before, so let it be.


----------



## Rookie4

lovewins said:


> I am the BS, the BH of the OP of this thread.
> 
> No, I don't agree with my wife's 2007 observations, or the excuses that followed while she had the affair.
> 
> I was half the monster she made me out to be...and she was the other half at the worst part of marriage in 2007.
> 
> I have no interest in defending myself at this time, but rather to focus on picking up the pieces.
> 
> The education I have received from TAM through this process and observing the commentary of both our experience and other threads, good and bad, has been tremendously helpful. I thank all of you for that, regardless of your position.
> 
> I will say more, and follow up on this thread, but not today. That is a promise.


Dude, I'm glad you're here. You will find that the lynch mob is in full cry, but that there are more reasonable posters who can really help you , whatever way you go. Post any time and we can try to help with positive advice from our own experiences. The main question of R or D is up to you and only you can say whether or not the OP is doing what it takes. Take most posts with a whole shaker of salt, and you'll do fine.


----------



## frustratedinphx

THE 5 YEAR UPDATE:

It's 2018 almost 5 years after this implosion... We're still married. Barely... here's what really went down because you all missed A LOT:
1. The day after we stopped posting, 7/13/13, BH FINALLY CAME CLEAN. He totally had an affair with the chick in Brazil. I told him "Door's open. Don't let it hit you in the ass on your way out". Looking back, I laugh. She was laughable. I told him "if you want that, go get it!" He stayed put. But, before we got to this, he cried to my mother, his family, our family, our Nanny... about how I treated him so horribly, etc. Yeah, he wasn't so innocent & he fed me to the wolves- all of you, my family, his family, etc. I ate SO MUCH **** for a long time. He told his family "his one night stand", (yeah, not so much) was just that. He neglected to mention the cache of pics of his mistress, naked, the $$ he sent her for "books" (riiiiight!). 

2. I quit my job to stay home and be "a better wife/mother", etc.

3. It went from better, back to bad, to horrible etc. He started drinking more, became really jealous. Had a fight with a door and the door won over a client hitting on me. Broke his hand. I still took him from clinic to orthopedic surgeon (personal friend), to more appointments, etc. to "show I cared". Endured being called a frigid *****, a ****ing **** and some other choice names. I became suicidal in 2015 and he mocked me saying he would NEVER let anyone make him feel that way.

4. I wrote his parents, our marriage counselor & our a doctor who diagnosed him with ADHD (rest of us are too) begging for help- his 4YO DUI convictions stood, his license was still suspended and he was out of control. He told his family and everyone else *I* was a liar. They came to stage an intervention for me & my "depression"... the net effect after taking ME to a psychiatrist, NOTHING. I have a ****ty situation, but the psychiatrist said she hoped he'd get help for his issues. Somehow *I* was still the liar.

5. Switch flips. There's nothing wrong with me- THEY however are ****ing crazy!! So, I cut his family off for 1.5YRS. I let them back in and because of his jealousy, he convinced them "I flirt with men in bars". They're out again as of fall 2017.

6. I toughen up. I don't buy into his name calling. I build my business back up. I'm good. I let him have it one night in 2015. I repeat most of what he's said to me before "You're a [fill in the blanks]" just to see whether "names don't bother" him. Guess what! They do!! He's hurt and feeling terrible now about what I said to him. My response, "Names do hurt you?? *NOW* you know how I feel." To this day, he still brings up how I was “SO MEAN” to HIM!!! Funny how that works...

7. He goes after me to have sex. After being called a *****, **** (for having an affair too), frigid *****, [fill in these blanks, he covered them ALL], I'm NOT INTERESTED. I'm too ashamed of all the things he's called me, dragging my name in the mud to think about sex with him or anyone else, let alone myself, so I lock it down. He's MAD ABOUT THAT TOO! I give in a little bit, but not much.

8. Another year goes by. I call up the friends he made me block and cut out of my life. They still love me and will forgive him too. Now he's got built in buddies to do stuff with, blah, blah. Someone to ***** with about me. Yup!

9. Finally after being called a cheater over and over by A CHEATER, I get tired of all of it. I start opening up my yap and fight back. He's tracking me via GPS & that ****'s not very accurate. **TIP: If you're going to accuse your spouse of doing bad things, verify the source BEFORE you die on your sword**... I get smart and we buy a "vacation rental" really, a place for me to get piece from the never-ending name calling, screaming, etc. (FYI- I've recorded lots of it & saved the texts so I can have proof. I'm GREAT at that!)

10. I turn 40. Throw a kick ass party. What do I get from my loving husband? 0. Zip. Zilch! NUTTIN'. Despite that, the party AND being in my 40s are AWESOME! I no longer give a **** what most people think, as long as I'm happy, not breaking the law, setting a good example & paying my way. As much as he thinks I don't contribute, 6-figures I make every year is a decent chunk of money. 

11. BUT he decides that my 6-figure income "isn't good enough". I have guys hitting on me because people actually think I'm in my 20's, not early 40s (eye cream works WONDERS!). ALL The weight I lost from stress after D-Day, stays off, because the stress is WORSE NOW. I look better than most other 42-YO moms, but it's MY FAULT guys are hitting on me... I HAD TO EAT THAT **** UNTIL #METOO. **** Harvey Weinstein, Bill Cosby & all those other ****s who thought they were untouchable. ***NOW*** I have some ability to show it's a pervasive, systemic issue affecting many women. He can no longer say I'm all the names he called me, while sympathizing over the horror stories from other women. I hope all of those MFs get theirs in prison from a big guy named Bubba with huge ****! Karma's a *****- I know that well... 

12. I befriend my Perinatologist who delivered our 1st baby- emergency C-section after a 36hr labor (very traumatic). Our families live within walking distance of each other. His ex-wife is bat **** crazy (I know first hand, but it's common knowledge around town). We commiserate over being miserable. DH, tracks me down via my GPS and assumes I'm having another affair. Doc did hit on me, but I said "thanks, no thanks". NOPE! Not interested in the guy who's nearly 20 years older than me. Sorry. Not my thing. I do list his house. He's in crazy debt thanks to his ex wife's $40K/mo AMEX Black card habit. It's an expensive house and a nice commission, BUT the assumption is that I "want him". "No thanks!" I say. It gets to... "choose one- him or me..." "Neither." I say. "I don't want him and don't want you, the way you're acting either..." In his head, that = I want the other guy. WRONG AGAIN! (How can I be more clear???). Doc no longer tries, but occasionally professes his love to me when he drinks too much. I'm firm when he does, so hopefully that's done. 

13. DH makes some lame ass attempts to show he cares. Buys me several expensive gifts that 10 years ago, I would have tripped over myself to have. In spring 2017, ALL my closest friends (different social circles, states & even countries) sit me down in the span of a week and tell me "We think it's time for you to move on. We care about you and you've been miserable for so long..." He accuses me of cheating again. I'm not having sex with ANYONE- not him and not even with myself. I'M NOT EVEN SURE MY **** WORKS ANYMORE!!! At some point, my period disappears completely for over 6 mos. GREAT MENOPAUSE AT 41! ****ing awesome! Turns out, stress & lack of iron can do that. I'm back to normal and even ovulating again, not that it matters...

14. In late August 2017, somehow I read The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists... (GREAT READ BTW). Suddenly, it all clicks! I'm the daughter of a narcissist mother. I essentially married my mother... OMG!!! I'm a total fool! I've been trying to empathize with someone who has NONE and is incapable of having concern for others (unless there's something in it for him- anything)!!! DISCLAIMER: no one diagnosed him, but by now, my shrink, my cut off-but-reinstated GF who's ******* stepdad treated her own mother like dirt, and several others are saying "it looks like a duck, walks like a duck..." The final straw... his mother tells my mother he's "upset because she (*me*) flirts with men in bars..." LOLOL I tell a girlfriend this story and she said "You flirt with men in bars? Can I come??" Uhh... I don't go to bars.

14. 9/26/17. I file for separation. Can't take the accusations, screaming & yelling anymore... Our kids are a mess in the chaos of our house. He REFUSES TO ACCEPT THE PAPERWORK I file myself at the courthouse. He tells me I "did it wrong" and filed for divorce, not separation. He retains an attorney before I can have a consult. I wasn't really sure about that lawyer, but... he won't file, won't accept my filing. I should serve his attorney. I focus on work again. He starts to make attempts to be kinder, help more, do all the **** husbands do. Me. I'm skeptical. A leopard NEVER changes his spots. I'm still holding back. My ****'s locked down. I'm not putting out to some ******* who's going to call me a ****ing ***** again.

15. The drinking really has become a problem again... embarrassing evenings out that end up with him screaming and yelling at me. I'm not even sure what I've done. One time, I actually don't say a word... he's drawn us a bath and lights into me for reasons I'm still not sure about. I ask if he's done. He says yes and I leave. Another time, he's home with the kids and nanny, high/drunk at 4:20P. Says it's not a big deal he's just trying to get through the code. The interlock device on his car is a problem. He can't drive the soccer carpool because he doesn't want to embarrass "our son". So he's driving my car and I'm trapped, all while trying to live in the "other house", which is paying for itself and cash flowing pretty well. 

One day I realize, I'm the ******* stuck driving the soccer car pool, while trying to get my broker's license. Another time or 2 happen when he's drunk, high etc. can't drive because the interlock device on his car won't start and he doesn't' want to get caught driving drunk again at seemingly normal daytime/evening hours... [get where I'm going??]

16. December 2016. Hubby moves back to the condo because he's "leaving me again..." I go to bring his lame ass dinner with the kids and find him in a questionable sexual sitch... kids saw too. WTF?!! There's no denying or gas-lighting this time... Our 13YO son saw what I saw. I'm out, but he weasels his way back in trying to be "superdad" [hear the trumpets?] We move on. Fast forward to President's Day Weekend 2018. I catch him in another questionable sexual sitch. This time I throw him out because it's something our kids could have seen. I'm so disgusted... He shares a devastating trauma in his childhood, which makes perfect sense AND… weasels his way back in again. He's discovered all the little sweet somethings in bitmoji and LOVES to send me the pics.

17. 1/26/18- The separation filing falls off the court docket due to the papers not being served. FML... AND DH is now regularly telling me I'm "using him" and that he's "carrying me". Our life is very "my" and "your". Separate bank accounts, etc. After getting fed up at his $25K tax penalty for failing to pay out ANY WITHOLDING FOR 18 MOS FOR HIS NEW BUSINESS, I dug up our taxes and discovered a few things- I made as much or more money than him a few years and I was paying a whole lot of our taxes. Until summer '16. I was claiming 1 exemption for witholding. He's claiming 5! WTF??! This is not a marriage. There are many people who keep stuff separate for a whole host of reasons, but getting married is a partnership. I don’t want to account for every penny earned/spent or every minute logged in managing our LIFE. That just plain sucks.

18. It's April 2018. He's called me a GOLD DIGGER. LOLOLOL I'm in our rental until the next set of tenants come on 4/16. I have to go back to the misery of our house this weekend. I'm waiting for the consult with new & very busy attorney (referral from my client/DRs; his own attorney who's familiar with nut jobs). DH actually sent me a message last night reminding me of this thread & how I admitted to my 5YR affair… That led me to look back on this post to & reply to DH: "I'd forgotten about the post I wrote under the pretense that only I had had an affair, even though I suspected you did too. Thanks for reminding me exactly you are. I appreciate it! 👍🏼😊"

LET'S GET A FEW THINGS STRAIGHT:
-MY affair (emotional/physical/any) went from March 2008-March 2012. Any of you with a PhD in Math?? No? That's 4 [FOUR] years. Not 5, not 6, etc. In the exercise DH had me do for full disclosure, I had to account for every time I saw the OM. It was 6 times TOTAL. In 4 YEARS. I still had an affair. It was physical & emotional. I needed companionship. BUT STILL WRONG! However, I'm NOT repenting for anything other than a 4-year affair. He actually thinks I should be repentant for the months up to the affair that were 100% plutonic & the period of time from when it ended to when he found out. He’s not willing to apply that same equation to his affair, so NOPE! Oh, last thought on this, he told me he thought he was falling in love with his OW… 😂 First rule of affairs: don’t fall in love with the OM/OW. Nothing good can come of it. Even less good can come from admitting it. 

-All 3 kids are mine. We have 3 DNA tests and matches on Ancestry.com to prove it. DH SUCKS at math. That deficiency humiliated me to no end. I'm not sure I'll ever be the same for it.

-I've HAVE NOT cheated again! I haven't tried & don’t plan to. I hope to someday see the OM, but not for the reason you're thinking. I'd love to drop kick him in his balls!! Hope I have my stilettos on that day… 

-I have no life other than work, taking care of my kids, gardening, reading self-help books, trying to spend time with my girlfriends (book club, dinners in, drinks at each other's homes & trying to do things for the greater good- raising money/awareness for education/school issues, bringing awareness to Autism, domestic violence, sexual harassment, women’s empowerment, etc. Occasionally I go out with my girlfriends, but we're not clubbing, or doing anything like that (I have 3 kids to wake up to!). But hope to change that. I have lots of ideas and plant to put the to use for fun, to make money and to change the world!!!

-DH is "sort of" attending AA meetings. He "isn't an alcoholic", but told me yesterday that the 12-steps are a great way to make your life better... Really? I thought manning up and owning your **** kind of accomplished the same thing. BTW- I don't drink either, but totally feel I have EVERY RIGHT IF I DAMN WELL PLEASE. *THIS* stance bothers me for so many reasons. He’s on his 2nd try for a 1YR stint with the interlock device on his car for an extreme DUI he was convicted for in *2011*… I’ve seen addiction in his family, but never connected the dots till now. I worry for our kids.

-My shrink supports me at our regular sessions, but the underlying messages from the guy who is happily married, but comes from a long line of addicts, including his own dad, brother, son & many other members of the family... did I mention he's on staff at a local hospital for substance abuse) is building me up to be independent and GET THE **** OUT! He's not being spoon fed anything from me because... he was OUR marriage counselor. #3 I think... He tied up the link between addiction, narcissism & spousal abuse. I’ve made great progress rebuilding self-esteem, cutting off my mother and building boundaries by taking no more ****.

-Am I 100% innocent in this **** show? HELL NO. I made LOTS of mistakes, but can own EVERY. LAST. ONE. DH, not so much...

FINAL THOUGHTS:

-I’d like to thank each and every one of you *******s who instead of offering advice, judged, jumped to conclusions and blamed me for everything (DH even tried to tell me he had his affair because subconsciously he knew about mine and it was retaliation... Nice try ****head. Not even close.) Many of you on this site, his family & their “intervention" all led me to conclude that other people's accusations of me Aren’t. My. Problem. I NO LONGER CARE WHAT YOU THINK. (I’d like to thank being 40…) Yay me!! There are lots of self-serving people in this world who will jump on the "blame bandwagon" instead of asking for clues and putting the puzzle together themselves. Kind of reminiscent of Germany in the early 40s… In business, the most successful people are problem-solvers focused on solutions. The *******s (no one likes) tend do the post-mortems. For the record, postmortems are to ensure “the thing that was bad" NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN, not beat the dead horse some more. My husband is still stuck in “blaming” me for the issues. As far as I'm concerned, I’m responsible for my actions and he is for his. 

-My business is not doing well, but I’m working to undo that. Working, if done right, should give people a sense of purpose. I LOVE my job and I’m GOOD at it!! **Don’t judge working mothers who don’t want to give up being a hero to stay at home, wipe butts, clean dishes and fold laundry all day unless you've done it!** It’s thankless (& endless)!! Just as DH LOVES & THRIVES at his occupation, I do too. We all need something to stimulate us and give us the validations we ALL NEED!

-I know SO MANY women who’ve had very similar stories to mind. The emotional & mental toll is of domestic abuse is DEVASTATING. Until you’re in it yourself, you have no idea how debilitating it is. Just when I doubted it really happened to me, I had more than a handful of friends confirm they **saw** the way DH treated me. They didn't speak up because our society says “don’t get involved” in other people’s ****. That's a ****ty way to live. I wasn’t joking about being suicidal… Remember, a girl was convicted of successfully convincing her boyfriend to *take his own life*. Words hurt people. A little tact goes a long way. I’ve had some frank conversations with my kids about the impact of our words. How we can’t un-say what we say. To quote the now banned… (shocker!) JCD: "first rule of marriage: Don't be a d*ck” Sadly, DH never really learned that one… hence we are where we are today.

I aspire with some girlfriends who also have similar stories to mine to start a group for women (a “village” for all people really) to find a better way to handle or get out of situations like this. I want everyone to have a place for people to lift the up. Sure we’ll make mistakes and people need to check us, but again the thing about tact… My story is bad, but I’ve heard way worse… some people are really ****ed up. It’s really sad. BUT I’M NOT A VICTIM. 

-After YEARS of being super modest, I’m ready to flaunt it- a little. I’m not "looking for anything” or seeking revenge. I *earned it*. I eat cleanly, take care of myself and make an effort to look good and feel good. Other women do it (& many shouldn’t!). Having a jealous husband who can’t handle it the attention I get is *NOT MY PROBLEM*. I caught DH in his affair 3 WEEKS before I gave birth. I told NO ONE other than my closest girlfriends who wanted to throw me a baby shower. I didn’t want to celebrate. I could have dragged him over hot coals, but didn’t. Why? It wasn’t right. Period. How could I mow him down with the bus, when I was guilty of the same? Unfortunately, DH didn’t have the same restraint. He had his pity party and YOU BOUGHT IT! I hope you feel really dumb… I *wasn’t threatened* by a 20YO skank in another country. I earn a good living and have a business degree from one of the best schools in the nation. If he wants that half-assed ****, be my guest. I probably won’t want him at that point anyway.

-I don’t want to be divorced. I want DH to love me and treat me right. I want to do the same for him. BUT, I don’t think he’s capable and I’m NOT eating **** every day FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE TO STAY IN IT. **** being married for 40+ years (both sets of our parents are). My grandparents were married for 70 YEARS. Know what? My Grandpa had a baby out of wedlock and my Grandma ate **** her whole life for it. My grandfather was a hypocritical ass who I will never forgive for that & turning his back on my aunt who rejected her cheating husband. I’m not going to repeat history and let that keep going. I come from a long line of unhappily married (forever) people. I don’t want that. Life’s too short & Alzheimer's runs in my family. But do what you want. I hope my husband pulls his **** out of his ass and figures it out in time... I’ve told him many times that I won’t let him “steal my joy”. He tries, but I’m an eternal optimist (aren’t all realtors??? LOL)? I have an appointment with the new attorney on 4/26/18, unless I decide to engage her colleague. I'll be on the train out of this **** show, until then. 

-I don’t care if you respond to this post or what you think. I will be out living my life with the village of people who support me, who’ve offered me money, a place to live in peace and have come to me for my professional skills. My life isn't perfect, but I’ll take it. It’s a helluva lot better than the Jerry Springer **** I’ve endured for nearly 2 decades… I’m out! Peace.

P.S. I’ve decided that most of the gun slingers in this parade have some serious issues and hope they’re getting therapy to overcome them. BTW, therapy helps you to move on and stay out of other people’s ****. I don’t think some of the participants here offer very good advice. They've done more damage to me & our marriage than you will ever know. Narcissists are very clever manipulators. YOU WERE HAD! But I’m over that too. Good luck, suckas!! 😜


----------



## aine

Wow, I didn't comment on your thread before as I hadn't joined TAM yet but all I can see is that you both have been through the ringer. This is what comes of cheating in a marriage, it's like a nuclear bomb set off, I don't care what your reasons or excuses or validations are. The bottom line is you are not happy, you go to counselling if that doesnt work then divorce, plain and simple, cheating is not the answer, ever. You and he both knew what you were doing.

Neither of you are blameless and there is obviously so much resentment on both sides that you have a very toxic marriage. You are both bat **** crazy!
You guys seem to suit each other but I feel sorry for your kids. Do them a favour and get a divorce. They are probably damaged by now.

This merry go round will continue until one of you decide to get rid of the resentment (through therapy or whatever) or sign the divorce papers. There is nothing here worth saving.


BTW, you still have owned your own ****, you don't sound very remorseful to me. Mind you if your H is as you say, why do you bother, just go!


----------



## VermiciousKnid

Obviously neither of you love each other like a husband and wife should nor do either of you understand what a marriage commitment to another person really means. You both have pretty loose morals. Why don't you two do the biggest act of kindness you've ever done for each other and end this sham of a marriage. That way you're both free to spend your lives banging whomever you want whenever you want with no moral implications.


----------



## MattMatt

@frustratedinphx The reason people might have thought your affair was five years and not four years was because you told us it was five years in your first post.



> Somewhere along the way, I let an old colleague into my life and shared what was going on. He like everyone else acted as if what my husband was doing was wrong and I felt a little validated.
> 
> At some point, he expressed feelings for me, I had had a little crush on him. He lives in another state (6+ hours drive away), but one thing led to another and it became an EA and then a PA that went on and off for 5 years.


From what you have told us, neither of you seem to be good marriage material, with your long term affair and your husbands' long term abuse of you.

It's a shame your children are in the middle of all of this. I think you are correct in your decision to divorce.


----------



## VermiciousKnid

MattMatt said:


> @frustratedinphx The reason people might have thought your affair was five years and not four years was because you told us it was five years in your first post.
> 
> 
> 
> From what you have told us, neither of you seem to be good marriage material, with your long term affair and your husbands' long term abuse of you.
> 
> *It's a shame your children are in the middle of all of this.* I think you are correct in your decision to divorce.


I agree with this 100% and if I was an attorney involved in this case, I'd be representing the children against both of their parents to get them emancipated and into a better environment somewhere. The children, as I see it, are the *only *victims here.


----------



## SunCMars

God, my head is reeling....

How do I approach this creel of crawl-dads.

Where do I start?
@aine called both of you Bat-Poop crazy. I buy that.

......................................................................
'Eye' suspects:

The husband was not 'this' way at the start of their marriage.
Sometime after the honeymoon, she drove him to frustrating madness, to alcoholism.
Then into another women's arms. This is wrong of his part.

Her personality is overpowering, she being an Alpha female.
All her life, she wanted what she wanted and she got it, she took it. Consequences, be damned.

She is willing to point fingers and say, "He did it too, he is also a liar and cheater". This, to ameliorate her sins.
She says she owns her errors, admits her faults. But, still makes excuses.

She broke her husband. Broke him in the first years of her marriage.

She is a Quivering Aspen, has paper-thin skin. She needs a very powerful man to manage her. And a very patient one.

She had her affair because she felt entitled. She knew it was wrong. 
Had her husband not found out about it and if her AP kept silent, she would then and now feel, just fine.
Had not her husband, in turn, cheated, she would still feel good about herself.
OP is not capable of true remorse. It is not 'in' her.

The husband cheated because the BSC wife drove the man away. He, in turn, became BSC. {bat **** crazy}.

If the aftermath situation had never happened, the OP would have looked back and felt good about her now-ended affair. 

Her husband had his affair to escape her tyranny, to feel worthy in another women's eyes. To punish her, incognito, in his eyes, not hers.

...................................................................................................

My eye-witness washes this muddy truth. 
It make sense out of this emotional chaos.

OP getting angry, telling us she is fit, she is prettier than others her age. Telling us that she can get many men, that they hit on her all the time.
Yet, she refuses because she is not really loose, is not a hedonist. 

Her. never properly getting past, past failures, never moving to new mental territory.
That, Frustrated refuses, because she does not want this buffer emptied.
Her buffer full of baggage needs to remain. It gives her an excuse, a reason for her actions. 
It buffers her from the truth. She is way-overdrawn flawed.

She brings the worst out in people. Her mental chaos is viral, is catching.
.....................................................................................................

On the doctor being too old. The one that hit on you.
Had he been younger, and not so much in debt, I suspect your tune would have changed.
You want us to think, that you think, that you are not so [loose] so out of control.
.....................................................................................................

You are warning us, telling us that you are pretty, in good shape. You are getting ready to charge at the world.
Start living for you.
Not charge at men. I find this thought, counter, intuitive, not true.

In other sentences you say you are not interested in relationships, want to R with your husband. 
Your words say one thing, your actions say the opposite. Your life long actions, more-so

It seems that unpleasant, tragic reality, can be true reality. You created much of the reality. It was not all handed to you.

Reality is what happened, wants and needs apart from such reality.

"Frustrated"' you are an egotist. You, having more pride than loving passion. Men are on this earth exist to adore you, respect you, to do your bidding, happily so.
You skitter along the floor, so wound up are you. Life is all about You, not about Them.

Your's Grandpa was a cheater, a dirt bag to Grandma. You followed in his path. Why is that?

You need not a phallus, never did, you needs a chill pill. 
............................................................................................................

My suggestion to FrustratedinPhx is to get into endurance sports. Activities that drain you completely. Do these activities regularly, you need to relax.
Your nerves are out of control, your anger is your enemy.

You also need to divorce.

Your past is your present, your life a vicious circle.
You are fighting old battles, you keep pulling off the scab, never allowing scar tissue to form.

The past is set in stone, has no promise left.
It can never get better. 
Only the future holds promise, has promise left.



TH-


----------



## bandit.45

Damn....


----------



## Tron

A cluster-**** of a marriage.

Do yourselves a favor and end it.


----------



## Taxman

You sound as if you have come to terms with life as it is, but he is an alcoholic, rageoholic and frankly is a piece of ****. While you were working your ass off repairing the marriage, this ******* kept his affair secret? **** him and the horse he rode in on. YOU CAN DO BETTER. And you know it. Why subject yourself to this fool.


----------



## DustyDog

Help me out here - what is the "all" that you "had"? I don't see anything in here suggesting that your marriage was worth staying in....


----------



## MattMatt

DustyDog said:


> Help me out here - what is the "all" that you "had"? I don't see anything in here suggesting that your marriage was worth staying in....


Perhaps she only realised now dreadful it was several years later?


----------



## BluesPower

*You had nothing and you should have thrown it away...*



aine said:


> Wow, I didn't comment on your thread before as I hadn't joined TAM yet but all I can see is that you both have been through the ringer. This is what comes of cheating in a marriage, it's like a nuclear bomb set off, I don't care what your reasons or excuses or validations are. The bottom line is you are not happy, you go to counselling if that doesnt work then divorce, plain and simple, cheating is not the answer, ever. You and he both knew what you were doing.
> 
> Neither of you are blameless and there is obviously so much resentment on both sides that you have a very toxic marriage. You are both bat **** crazy!
> You guys seem to suit each other but I feel sorry for your kids. Do them a favour and get a divorce. They are probably damaged by now.
> 
> This merry go round will continue until one of you decide to get rid of the resentment (through therapy or whatever) or sign the divorce papers. There is nothing here worth saving.
> 
> BTW, you still have owned your own ****, you don't sound very remorseful to me. Mind you if your H is as you say, why do you bother, just go!


Yeah pretty much this. Especially when @aine says that you are both Bat **** Crazy. I mean really you cannot see that? 

Just go ahead and divorce him already that the thing is that you should have done that 10 years ago. 

You guys don't have a marriage, you have a MMA match that has lasted to what 20 years or something? 

Just get it over with...


----------



## re16

Frustrated.

Thanks for coming back and posting the 5 year update.

"Good luck, suckas!!" Probably could have got your point across with that line only. No need for the rest.

See ya in another 5 years.....


----------



## frustratedinphx

Aine said:


> BTW, you still have owned your own ****, you don't sound very remorseful to me. Mind you if your H is as you say, why do you bother, just go!


Contrary to what you think, I am. It was one of my biggest mistakes of my life. I know what lead to me doing what I did and I've taken steps to make sure it NEVER happens again. I don't aspire to hurt people. Inflicting pain is a VERY unattractive quality in a person. I'm very sorry I hurt DH, but am VERY angry for everything he did to me after the fact. 2 wrongs NEVER make a right.



VermiciousKnid said:


> You both have pretty loose morals.


You've met me before? You've spent time with me volunteering & raising money money for charities, feeding the homeless, collecting/making care packages for our military overseas, spending time with the elderly, volunteering at school? I had period of stupidity & recklessness and an affair with someone I trusted & considered a friend. I cheated and it wasn't right. I was a bad wife for that. But I was a good wife too (before & after). I was there for my husband when he had melanoma. Held him when he cried over my affair (before & after he admitted his). Zipped his pants and cut up his food after he punched a door and broke his hand. You read a thread drew your own conclusion about my "loose morals". I won't speak for DH. He's his own person. For the record, I think you're rude and judgmental. So, we're even. 



 SunCMars said:


> 'Eye' suspects:
> 
> The husband was not 'this' way at the start of their marriage.
> Sometime after the honeymoon, she drove him to frustrating madness, to alcoholism.
> Then into another women's arms. This is wrong of his part.
> 
> Her personality is overpowering, she being an Alpha female.
> All her life, she wanted what she wanted and she got it, she took it. Consequences, be damned.
> 
> She is willing to point fingers and say, "He did it too, he is also a liar and cheater". This, to ameliorate her sins.
> She says she owns her errors, admits her faults. But, still makes excuses.
> 
> She broke her husband. Broke him in the first years of her marriage.
> 
> She is a Quivering Aspen, has paper-thin skin. She needs a very powerful man to manage her. And a very patient one.
> 
> She had her affair because she felt entitled. She knew it was wrong.
> Had her husband not found out about it and if her AP kept silent, she would then and now feel, just fine.
> Had not her husband, in turn, cheated, she would still feel good about herself.
> OP is not capable of true remorse. It is not 'in' her.
> 
> The husband cheated because the BSC wife drove the man away. He, in turn, became BSC. {bat **** crazy}.
> 
> If the aftermath situation had never happened, the OP would have looked back and felt good about her now-ended affair.
> 
> Her husband had his affair to escape her tyranny, to feel worthy in another women's eyes. To punish her, incognito, in his eyes, not hers.


LOLOLOLOLOLOL This from the guy who wrote: "Few, likely no man will ever measure up to any women’s expectations. It cannot be. 
To do so would require them to be a hybrid. A man losing his intrinsic male qualities, adopting, adapting to feminine ways…. some of which cannot be assuaged to an acceptable working compromise. His mind cannot shift from one to the other…fast enough, convincing enough to please his lady lover." There's this thing called *compromise*. No one is going to lay down and do what you want. If they did, would you really want them? I don't want that. Don't know anyone who does, except psychopaths...

BTW- "by the end of the honeymoon...", before the honeymoon, I was the only one working. DH was laid off at the time. No judgement to him. Just was what it was. Marriage is give and take. As far as wanting what I want and taking it, would you EVEN ASK THAT QUESTION if I was a man? I can run circles around most people at work and in most life situations. I'm not apologizing for it & NEVER WILL (before you draw your sword, I'm NOT saying I know everything...). There are a lot of men threatened by assertive women. You sound like one. That's YOUR problem.

Again. You've met me before? Because... you know what they say about people who "Ass. U. Me." LOL You sound bitter and afraid of failure to the point of not trying. Please get help for that. One of my favorite quotes of all time: "You miss 100% of the shots you never take."- Wayne Gretzky. I love ice hockey (NY Rangers fan for life!!!)! *I* am not a man hater. I LOVE men. I'm raising one & I hope he'll be a great individual, partner & father one day. You can't please all the people all the time... But you should start by pleasing yourself. 

Sincerely- I don't know who hurt you, but you can't judge a whole gender on the actions of one or a few. Sweetheart, I'm a woman working in a man's world. My near miss with being an investment banker and being the kid of one taught me tough skin is a REQUIREMENT, so is kindness. For the record, I think I know more sensitive men than women. 2 girlfriends complained to me yesterday about the "sensitive" men in their lives. Who has time for that ****? Life's short! 

Oh and for the endurance sports... I played competitive: basketball, softball, tennis, danced. I lettered in HS in Track/Field, Tennis & Cheering. I was captain of the latter 2 my senior year. I was a co-ed varsity collegiate cheerleader (as in ESPN 2 late night). Because of it, I saw every state on the east coast and have had the privilege of cheering for several professional athletes while at college. 2 are currently HEAD COACHES in the NFL. I played co-ed flag football in a league until my DR confirmed my first pregnancy. I had to miss the playoffs because of it! I wasn't happy.

I have more energy in my little finger than most have in their whole bodies. One of my co-ed partners from those days is active military- Army. 3 tours- 2 in Iraq & 1 in Afghanistan. He rides me as hard with his military "tough love" as he ever did. He's one of my best friends to this day. Why? Mutual respect. DH had to accept him when we met & did so with open arms. I was in his wedding- fortunately his wife let me stand with the bridesmaids, otherwise I would have been a groomswoman. I like to credit myself with their wedding actually happening. I rode his ass equally as hard when his commitment-phobe ways stood between them. I told him he ****ed up, to man up and do what he had to do to get her back (eat crow & apologize). He listened then. He listened to me again when I told him not to bail when he got cold feet. It's mutual respect & friendship. Something tells me you've never had that kind of friendship with a woman. You're missing out... 

To DustyDog, MattMatt & VermiciousKnid: People will say all kinds of things when they're traumatized, threatened and fearful. It's part of the fight/flight response. I talked to my shrink about this exact thing last night. I think I had PTSD from DH raging at me at all hours of the day & night. Every time my front door opened and he'd start screaming, yelling and throwing things, I shut down. A lot of y'all talk a good game but are largely uninformed (not pointing fingers- you know who you are). Go read about it: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...freezing-during-sexual-assault-and-harassment.

I will NEVER apologize for being proud of *my* accomplishments. Anyone who does this does him/herself no favors. I'm not letting any of you tear me down because you're stuck in "groupthink", which is a dangerous place to be. That said, modesty is a virtue. Despite anything I've achieved, I'm *no better than* anyone I cross paths with. My time & effort is no more important or valuable than anyone else's. Be careful about how you build one person up at the expense of another... You can be easily manipulated and might look foolish down the road.


----------



## personofinterest

Wow. It's been a very very difficult decade.

100% of my sympathy is for your kids. All the anger, violence, alcohol, cheating, bitterness, ranting.....

Does anyone care about them as much as they care about their own....stuff?

So sad


----------



## VermiciousKnid

That really long response/rant from OP tells me she has zero remorse and no idea what she really did. Neither does her hubby so the consensus advice to end this sham of a marriage and go your separate ways seems even more solid.

BTW, OP, yes you have loose morals. You admitted you carried on a physical affair for 4 years. How many lies did you tell in those 4 years? How much time did you steal from from husband and children to spend with your AP in those 4 years? How many people did you lie to and betray to keep this going for 4 years? This was not a drunken one night stand with a momentary lapse in judgment. This was a very long and very involved intentional affair by you that betrayed multiple people. Saying you have "loose morals" was being kind. Your husband does too. It's quite a train wreck of a relationship. As an attorney the only people I'd agree to represent in your case are your children. I'd get them emancipated from both of you and into a better environment.


----------



## OnTheFly

Please, please do the world a favour and don't divorce……you two are perfect for each other.


----------



## bandit.45

Well if one of you is moving out soon, do it before it gets too hot there.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

OnTheFly said:


> Please, please do the world a favour and don't divorce……you two are perfect for each other.


*BINGO*

I wish I could like that post more than once, maybe a few dozen times.


----------



## MattMatt

frustratedinphx said:


> Contrary to what you think, I am. It was one of my biggest mistakes of my life. I know what lead to me doing what I did and I've taken steps to make sure it NEVER happens again. I don't aspire to hurt people. Inflicting pain is a VERY unattractive quality in a person. I'm very sorry I hurt DH, but am VERY angry for everything he did to me after the fact. 2 wrongs NEVER make a right.
> 
> 
> 
> You've met me before? You've spent time with me volunteering & raising money money for charities, feeding the homeless, collecting/making care packages for our military overseas, spending time with the elderly, volunteering at school? I had period of stupidity & recklessness and an affair with someone I trusted & considered a friend. I cheated and it wasn't right. I was a bad wife for that. But I was a good wife too (before & after). I was there for my husband when he had melanoma. Held him when he cried over my affair (before & after he admitted his). Zipped his pants and cut up his food after he punched a door and broke his hand. You read a thread drew your own conclusion about my "loose morals". I won't speak for DH. He's his own person. For the record, I think you're rude and judgmental. So, we're even.
> 
> 
> 
> LOLOLOLOLOLOL This from the guy who wrote: "Few, likely no man will ever measure up to any women’s expectations. It cannot be.
> To do so would require them to be a hybrid. A man losing his intrinsic male qualities, adopting, adapting to feminine ways…. some of which cannot be assuaged to an acceptable working compromise. His mind cannot shift from one to the other…fast enough, convincing enough to please his lady lover." There's this thing called *compromise*. No one is going to lay down and do what you want. If they did, would you really want them? I don't want that. Don't know anyone who does, except psychopaths...
> 
> BTW- "by the end of the honeymoon...", before the honeymoon, I was the only one working. DH was laid off at the time. No judgement to him. Just was what it was. Marriage is give and take. As far as wanting what I want and taking it, would you EVEN ASK THAT QUESTION if I was a man? I can run circles around most people at work and in most life situations. I'm not apologizing for it & NEVER WILL (before you draw your sword, I'm NOT saying I know everything...). There are a lot of men threatened by assertive women. You sound like one. That's YOUR problem.
> 
> Again. You've met me before? Because... you know what they say about people who "Ass. U. Me." LOL You sound bitter and afraid of failure to the point of not trying. Please get help for that. One of my favorite quotes of all time: "You miss 100% of the shots you never take."- Wayne Gretzky. I love ice hockey (NY Rangers fan for life!!!)! *I* am not a man hater. I LOVE men. I'm raising one & I hope he'll be a great individual, partner & father one day. You can't please all the people all the time... But you should start by pleasing yourself.
> 
> Sincerely- I don't know who hurt you, but you can't judge a whole gender on the actions of one or a few. Sweetheart, I'm a woman working in a man's world. My near miss with being an investment banker and being the kid of one taught me tough skin is a REQUIREMENT, so is kindness. For the record, I think I know more sensitive men than women. 2 girlfriends complained to me yesterday about the "sensitive" men in their lives. Who has time for that ****? Life's short!
> 
> Oh and for the endurance sports... I played competitive: basketball, softball, tennis, danced. I lettered in HS in Track/Field, Tennis & Cheering. I was captain of the latter 2 my senior year. I was a co-ed varsity collegiate cheerleader (as in ESPN 2 late night). Because of it, I saw every state on the east coast and have had the privilege of cheering for several professional athletes while at college. 2 are currently HEAD COACHES in the NFL. I played co-ed flag football in a league until my DR confirmed my first pregnancy. I had to miss the playoffs because of it! I wasn't happy.
> 
> I have more energy in my little finger than most have in their whole bodies. One of my co-ed partners from those days is active military- Army. 3 tours- 2 in Iraq & 1 in Afghanistan. He rides me as hard with his military "tough love" as he ever did. He's one of my best friends to this day. Why? Mutual respect. DH had to accept him when we met & did so with open arms. I was in his wedding- fortunately his wife let me stand with the bridesmaids, otherwise I would have been a groomswoman. I like to credit myself with their wedding actually happening. I rode his ass equally as hard when his commitment-phobe ways stood between them. I told him he ****ed up, to man up and do what he had to do to get her back (eat crow & apologize). He listened then. He listened to me again when I told him not to bail when he got cold feet. It's mutual respect & friendship. Something tells me you've never had that kind of friendship with a woman. You're missing out...
> 
> To DustyDog, MattMatt & VermiciousKnid: People will say all kinds of things when they're traumatized, threatened and fearful. It's part of the fight/flight response. I talked to my shrink about this exact thing last night. I think I had PTSD from DH raging at me at all hours of the day & night. Every time my front door opened and he'd start screaming, yelling and throwing things, I shut down. A lot of y'all talk a good game but are largely uninformed (not pointing fingers- you know who you are). Go read about it: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...freezing-during-sexual-assault-and-harassment.
> 
> I will NEVER apologize for being proud of *my* accomplishments. Anyone who does this does him/herself no favors. I'm not letting any of you tear me down because you're stuck in "groupthink", which is a dangerous place to be. That said, modesty is a virtue. Despite anything I've achieved, I'm *no better than* anyone I cross paths with. My time & effort is no more important or valuable than anyone else's. Be careful about how you build one person up at the expense of another... You can be easily manipulated and might look foolish down the road.


So, what can YOU do about the situation you find yourself in?


----------



## As'laDain

just out of curiosity, can anyone point me to a post where @frustratedinphx talks about what her husband was/is feeling, emotionally?

she says he is a narcissist, but she comes across as one as well to me...


----------



## manfromlamancha

Very interesting. Lets see .... this was a "lets stick it to those TAM guys" update if I have ever read one. You seem to come back, now completely devoid of remorse, and with many many true colours showing. Good for you, I guess.


You ****ed a guy from your work environment for 5 .... oops ... I mean 4 years (gotta work on that Maths PhD) even while trying to get pregnant. It was not good because the OM was a bit sassy with you at times but you needed the **** fix. You even created a questionably titled thread about having it all but throwing it all away. You then run into the awesome army that is TAM by creating a thread to impress your husband. It backfires miserably. You stop posting because of this.

And now five years later (this has probably been eating at you all this time) you come back with a totally different attitude, a hell of a justification story and point out that you do charity work (so you cannot possibly be a bad person). Now it is a case of you being the good guy and your husband being the bad guy and how you now want to divorce him. No longer are you wanting to keep your family together and the desperate begging to be forgiven has now gone away. Mainly because it did not work the first time around. 

The truth might be that you and husband are well on the way to divorce, more $h!t might have hit the fan and suddenly he had torrent nights of sex with the young fit Brazilian girl. Oh, and now your toxic friends are back and "love" you and "forgive" hubby. Slightly nauseating.

I hope this helps you but please do not attack the wonderful TAM army for seeing through you the first time round. This just proves that they were right and nothing more.

My advice: handle your divorce with grace and hope that it helps your kids - they seem to be the completely blameless victims here.


----------



## frustratedinphx

Sweetie, not the entire army- only the ones who judged me and got it wrong. I deserved the comments for *MY* affair. BUT, my 1st post disclosed his affair. He just hadn't admitted it yet- NOT a coincidence. The sitch wasn't black/white, though you tried... **Who wouldn't notice their spouse's affair for 4 years!!!** CLEARLY it wasn't for the sex. I. Wasn't. Hiding. Or. Lying. I didn't need to. He never asked!!! The OM lived in another state. *I saw him 6 times in 4 years* & didn't talk to him regularly. I was working my ass off while raising a young family without DHs help. He was having the time of his life doing whatever he wanted to do & wasn't worried about me. 

Here, cheating was always "100% the fault of the cheater", but... DH let the lynch mob annihilate me for my cheating, but he was a cheater! He threatened to have me put in jail for adultery (a class 3 misdemeanor in AZ). WTF?! I'm still sorry & regret cheating. Never stopped saying so. Just because I don't bow down to you (strangers), doesn't mean I don't to DH. Lynch mob ignored the obvious clues he did too & blamed me for his affair that *we all knew* he had... The double-standard didn't sit well with me & I lit the BS on fire. *DH* knew it was wrong and you do too, but the "fog of male privilege" is as easy to grab as your ****. It's WAY easier to jump on the "wayward cheating ***** wife" (YOUR own relationship wounds ripped open & salted) than accept that you nailed the WS to the cross and ignored BH/WS. Remember *I caught him 1st*. He just lied longer & I didn't press it. I didn't dish the Betrayed Spouse (rage), but sure took it. DH is a great manipulator (the whole addiction thing). He poured the gas on me, lit the match and watched it burn. Wasn't the first time & definitely wasn't the last. Over. My. Dead. Body. Will I let it happen again. NONE of you found it foul that he had a DUI conviction in 2011, in 2018 still doesn't have his license reinstated?? His *sort of* going to AA meetings? Those of you in recovery PLEASE talk about the narcism in addiction. NO ONE connected the dots?? That's ****ed up.

Why would I talk about DH's feelings? I can only speak to my own. DH wants stay married, but he's insecure & can't control what comes out of his big mouth (HIS WORDS). I want to stay married, but am breaking the pattern of miserable married women in my family. NO ONE will verbally abuse me for the rest of my life. That includes YOU HERE. Take a hard look in the mirror before you rage at me like DH did. YOU wouldn't let anyone else talk to you that way, whether you did something wrong or not. DH knows and acknowledged it too. I swung hard at those who *took pleasure* in taking down a 5'1" 95# woman, like DH did. You showed me! LOL Except... **YOU get what you give, internet bullies!!** Big ugly men don't scare me & I know your balls aren't big enough to say this **** to my face. Aside from defending myself in this post, find one thread with me talking down to anyone. You won't find any...

MattMatt- What I'm doing? Saying no. Breaking the pattern and being authentically me. Not perfect, but genuinely trying to be a good person & treat everyone equally & kindly. I spent a fortune on therapy & was diagnosed & treated for ADHD. I try to advocate for others with the same plight (there are TONS of us). We ADD'ers are twice as likely to be divorced. I'm trying to teach my kids (all Dx too) inclusion & lead by example. It's not OK for daddy to scream at mommy (or the other way around). It was hard to explain to my 9YO daughter last night why Daddy called Mommy "a piece of garbage." There are always *******s, but if my kids/friends/people I can impact recognize what they do right & and own what they did wrong, some of the sting goes away. I'll never knowingly let another woman get bashed for doing something a man does to her or treated poorly because *he can* treat her that way. I've heard many men say "that ***** cheated on me!" and then under their breath go "... I did too, but she doesn't know..." Not cool. To honor my goals, I started *right here*. I aspire to create a forum for women (& eventually men) to lift each other up, not tear each other down. All of us came to this forum to be heard, to feel validated & get help or return the favor to others. It's high school mentality to decide for everyone how to treat one member because of your *own slanted view* of life. Don't act like you came here out of the kindness of your hearts to help strangers. You're ****ed up too! We all are, but we want to do/be better! Offer your insight or advice. Don't fan the flames with your own wounds & insecurities. 

Don't act like infidelity is this taboo thing that *ONLY* "immoral people" do. The US keeps electing WS presidents (BOTH parties)! "Infidelity" has more posts on this site than any other category! Back in the day, it was expected and condoned (remember my grandparents, the Kennedys, etc??), except that it takes a man & a woman (most of the time) to cheat. *Doesn't make cheating right*, but stop the holier than thou ****! In my book, the content of someone's character is defined by what they do after they **** up... I ate tons of **** and still have a smile on my face even as I punch you in yours for being a hypocrite. My *ONLY* goal in resurrecting this thread from the dead was to call BS for what it was. This world sucks, but it doesn't have to. Personally, I prefer LOVE, not war. Ironic who I married... Lovewins.


----------



## As'laDain

nice to know that i am reaching for my male privilege when i point out what i see. 
@frustratedinphx, you are going to have a hard time here. you have categorically dismissed people on this thread based on false premises that you pretty much made up entirely on your own. premises that you constructed in order to validate your anger. 

sorry, truth is, you just come across as a pretty miserable person.


----------



## alte Dame

They say that the only thing we can be sure of in life is death. This scares the crap out of us, so we do what we can to enliven the one life that we have. You and your H have done a bang-up job of 'enlivening.'

Drama queen, drama king, endlessly acting out for the children. They are the real losers here, in my opinion.

It's not too late to become a responsible adult. Counseling helps in that regard.

Some relationships are just toxic to everyone. You feed the toxicity. You bathe in it. To say that this is not healthy is a true understatement.

Five years later and five more years of the ****show. If you wanted to change this, you could do it. You are not leg-shackled.


----------



## Tron

I guess we on TAM are supposed to be able to read all people's minds (posters and non-posters alike) through the ether and be all-knowing Gods. 

OP, you (and your H too) simply come across as just bitter and angry. You and him are going to turn out some kind of F'd up kids because of it. I truly feel sorry for them.


----------



## manfromlamancha

frustratedinphx said:


> Sweetie, not the entire army- only the ones who judged me and got it wrong. I deserved the comments for *MY* affair. BUT, my 1st post disclosed his affair. He just hadn't admitted it yet- NOT a coincidence. The sitch wasn't black/white, though you tried... **Who wouldn't notice their spouse's affair for 4 years!!!** CLEARLY it wasn't for the sex. I. Wasn't. Hiding. Or. Lying. I didn't need to. He never asked!!! The OM lived in another state. *I saw him 6 times in 4 years* & didn't talk to him regularly. I was working my ass off while raising a young family without DHs help. He was having the time of his life doing whatever he wanted to do & wasn't worried about me.
> 
> Here, cheating was always "100% the fault of the cheater", but... DH let the lynch mob annihilate me for my cheating, but he was a cheater! He threatened to have me put in jail for adultery (a class 3 misdemeanor in AZ). WTF?! I'm still sorry & regret cheating. Never stopped saying so. Just because I don't bow down to you (strangers), doesn't mean I don't to DH. Lynch mob ignored the obvious clues he did too & blamed me for his affair that *we all knew* he had... The double-standard didn't sit well with me & I lit the BS on fire. *DH* knew it was wrong and you do too, but the "fog of male privilege" is as easy to grab as your ****. It's WAY easier to jump on the "wayward cheating ***** wife" (YOUR own relationship wounds ripped open & salted) than accept that you nailed the WS to the cross and ignored BH/WS. Remember *I caught him 1st*. He just lied longer & I didn't press it. I didn't dish the Betrayed Spouse (rage), but sure took it. DH is a great manipulator (the whole addiction thing). He poured the gas on me, lit the match and watched it burn. Wasn't the first time & definitely wasn't the last. Over. My. Dead. Body. Will I let it happen again. NONE of you found it foul that he had a DUI conviction in 2011, in 2018 still doesn't have his license reinstated?? His *sort of* going to AA meetings? Those of you in recovery PLEASE talk about the narcism in addiction. NO ONE connected the dots?? That's ****ed up.
> 
> Why would I talk about DH's feelings? I can only speak to my own. DH wants stay married, but he's insecure & can't control what comes out of his big mouth (HIS WORDS). I want to stay married, but am breaking the pattern of miserable married women in my family. NO ONE will verbally abuse me for the rest of my life. That includes YOU HERE. Take a hard look in the mirror before you rage at me like DH did. YOU wouldn't let anyone else talk to you that way, whether you did something wrong or not. DH knows and acknowledged it too. I swung hard at those who *took pleasure* in taking down a 5'1" 95# woman, like DH did. You showed me! LOL Except... **YOU get what you give, internet bullies!!** Big ugly men don't scare me & I know your balls aren't big enough to say this **** to my face. Aside from defending myself in this post, find one thread with me talking down to anyone. You won't find any...
> 
> MattMatt- What I'm doing? Saying no. Breaking the pattern and being authentically me. Not perfect, but genuinely trying to be a good person & treat everyone equally & kindly. I spent a fortune on therapy & was diagnosed & treated for ADHD. I try to advocate for others with the same plight (there are TONS of us). We ADD'ers are twice as likely to be divorced. I'm trying to teach my kids (all Dx too) inclusion & lead by example. It's not OK for daddy to scream at mommy (or the other way around). It was hard to explain to my 9YO daughter last night why Daddy called Mommy "a piece of garbage." There are always *******s, but if my kids/friends/people I can impact recognize what they do right & and own what they did wrong, some of the sting goes away. I'll never knowingly let another woman get bashed for doing something a man does to her or treated poorly because *he can* treat her that way. I've heard many men say "that ***** cheated on me!" and then under their breath go "... I did too, but she doesn't know..." Not cool. To honor my goals, I started *right here*. I aspire to create a forum for women (& eventually men) to lift each other up, not tear each other down. All of us came to this forum to be heard, to feel validated & get help or return the favor to others. It's high school mentality to decide for everyone how to treat one member because of your *own slanted view* of life. Don't act like you came here out of the kindness of your hearts to help strangers. You're ****ed up too! We all are, but we want to do/be better! Offer your insight or advice. Don't fan the flames with your own wounds & insecurities.
> 
> Don't act like infidelity is this taboo thing that *ONLY* "immoral people" do. The US keeps electing WS presidents (BOTH parties)! "Infidelity" has more posts on this site than any other category! Back in the day, it was expected and condoned (remember my grandparents, the Kennedys, etc??), except that it takes a man & a woman (most of the time) to cheat. *Doesn't make cheating right*, but stop the holier than thou ****! In my book, the content of someone's character is defined by what they do after they **** up... I ate tons of **** and still have a smile on my face even as I punch you in yours for being a hypocrite. My *ONLY* goal in resurrecting this thread from the dead was to call BS for what it was. This world sucks, but it doesn't have to. Personally, I prefer LOVE, not war. Ironic who I married... Lovewins.


I must admit this is priceless! Do you feel better after all that ?


----------



## Tron

In honor of @Deejo's return, throwing out the obligatory... 

Angry much are we?




frustratedinphx said:


> Sweetie, not the entire army- only the ones who judged me and got it wrong. I deserved the comments for *MY* affair. BUT, my 1st post disclosed his affair. He just hadn't admitted it yet- NOT a coincidence. The sitch wasn't black/white, though you tried... **Who wouldn't notice their spouse's affair for 4 years!!!** CLEARLY it wasn't for the sex. I. Wasn't. Hiding. Or. Lying. I didn't need to. He never asked!!! The OM lived in another state. *I saw him 6 times in 4 years* & didn't talk to him regularly. I was working my ass off while raising a young family without DHs help. He was having the time of his life doing whatever he wanted to do & wasn't worried about me.
> 
> Here, cheating was always "100% the fault of the cheater", but... DH let the lynch mob annihilate me for my cheating, but he was a cheater! He threatened to have me put in jail for adultery (a class 3 misdemeanor in AZ). WTF?! I'm still sorry & regret cheating. Never stopped saying so. Just because I don't bow down to you (strangers), doesn't mean I don't to DH. Lynch mob ignored the obvious clues he did too & blamed me for his affair that *we all knew* he had... The double-standard didn't sit well with me & I lit the BS on fire. *DH* knew it was wrong and you do too, but the "fog of male privilege" is as easy to grab as your ****. It's WAY easier to jump on the "wayward cheating ***** wife" (YOUR own relationship wounds ripped open & salted) than accept that you nailed the WS to the cross and ignored BH/WS. Remember *I caught him 1st*. He just lied longer & I didn't press it. I didn't dish the Betrayed Spouse (rage), but sure took it. DH is a great manipulator (the whole addiction thing). He poured the gas on me, lit the match and watched it burn. Wasn't the first time & definitely wasn't the last. Over. My. Dead. Body. Will I let it happen again. NONE of you found it foul that he had a DUI conviction in 2011, in 2018 still doesn't have his license reinstated?? His *sort of* going to AA meetings? Those of you in recovery PLEASE talk about the narcism in addiction. NO ONE connected the dots?? That's ****ed up.
> 
> Why would I talk about DH's feelings? I can only speak to my own. DH wants stay married, but he's insecure & can't control what comes out of his big mouth (HIS WORDS). I want to stay married, but am breaking the pattern of miserable married women in my family. NO ONE will verbally abuse me for the rest of my life. That includes YOU HERE. Take a hard look in the mirror before you rage at me like DH did. YOU wouldn't let anyone else talk to you that way, whether you did something wrong or not. DH knows and acknowledged it too. I swung hard at those who *took pleasure* in taking down a 5'1" 95# woman, like DH did. You showed me! LOL Except... **YOU get what you give, internet bullies!!** Big ugly men don't scare me & I know your balls aren't big enough to say this **** to my face. Aside from defending myself in this post, find one thread with me talking down to anyone. You won't find any...
> 
> MattMatt- What I'm doing? Saying no. Breaking the pattern and being authentically me. Not perfect, but genuinely trying to be a good person & treat everyone equally & kindly. I spent a fortune on therapy & was diagnosed & treated for ADHD. I try to advocate for others with the same plight (there are TONS of us). We ADD'ers are twice as likely to be divorced. I'm trying to teach my kids (all Dx too) inclusion & lead by example. It's not OK for daddy to scream at mommy (or the other way around). It was hard to explain to my 9YO daughter last night why Daddy called Mommy "a piece of garbage." There are always *******s, but if my kids/friends/people I can impact recognize what they do right & and own what they did wrong, some of the sting goes away. I'll never knowingly let another woman get bashed for doing something a man does to her or treated poorly because *he can* treat her that way. I've heard many men say "that ***** cheated on me!" and then under their breath go "... I did too, but she doesn't know..." Not cool. To honor my goals, I started *right here*. I aspire to create a forum for women (& eventually men) to lift each other up, not tear each other down. All of us came to this forum to be heard, to feel validated & get help or return the favor to others. It's high school mentality to decide for everyone how to treat one member because of your *own slanted view* of life. Don't act like you came here out of the kindness of your hearts to help strangers. You're ****ed up too! We all are, but we want to do/be better! Offer your insight or advice. Don't fan the flames with your own wounds & insecurities.
> 
> Don't act like infidelity is this taboo thing that *ONLY* "immoral people" do. The US keeps electing WS presidents (BOTH parties)! "Infidelity" has more posts on this site than any other category! Back in the day, it was expected and condoned (remember my grandparents, the Kennedys, etc??), except that it takes a man & a woman (most of the time) to cheat. *Doesn't make cheating right*, but stop the holier than thou ****! In my book, the content of someone's character is defined by what they do after they **** up... I ate tons of **** and still have a smile on my face even as I punch you in yours for being a hypocrite. My *ONLY* goal in resurrecting this thread from the dead was to call BS for what it was. This world sucks, but it doesn't have to. Personally, I prefer LOVE, not war. Ironic who I married... Lovewins.


----------



## bandit.45

Crazy-ass Arizonans....


----------



## Tron

bandit.45 said:


> Crazy-ass Arizonans....


Aren't you from Arizona? :wink2:


----------



## bandit.45

Tron said:


> Aren't you from Arizona? :wink2:


Born and raised. Crazy desert ******** all....


----------



## Windwalker

God I hope all the victim puke was good for your poor narcissistic soul. You and your husband are bat **** crazy narcissists. The real victims in all of this are the children who have 2 world class narcissistic ass-hats modeling for them how to live. Bravo!

Here's the real kicker, most of the people that saw through that candy coated line of horse **** you spewed the first time you posted, don't even visit anymore.

Do the world a favor and stay with your husband, you two are a match made in hell. 

So, arrivederci.


----------



## Tron

Well, there you go. It all makes sense now. :grin2:



bandit.45 said:


> Born and raised. Crazy desert ******** all....


----------



## threelittlestars

Okay.... Wow...WOW.... 

Let me get my bearings. I first want to state that I do think people are being shallow in their introspection of your current tone. 

This is a complicated issue. You come here with a 5 year up-date and sound un-remorseful and full of venom. I think you were sorry, but I don't really think you fixed you. I don't think you got to the root of why you cheated, and why you also stayed with someone so abusive to you. Still I don't think you have otherwise you would not have this rage... And no, he is not all the reason why. He is perhaps a factor. 

I get your anger at his LIES about his affair, and I get your frustration about his dysfunction. YOU SHOULD HAVE LEFT A LONG TIME AGO. this is not love that keeps you together it was something else.... 

He is a prick, a (seemingly WORTHLESS partner) 

I think this situation is what happens when you Trickle truth, (you and him), and blame-shift, and generally not work on your own ****. (This is for both of you) This was not a reconcilliation, this was a long drawn out you did it, no you did it, nu-uh, did not....Those fights are unproductive.

(as a good business woman i hope you can see this?) Though I am not sure because your thread was a long painful vent that basically equated =No he did this this this this that that, oh and that too, and just a bit more of this... he just has not come here with his long drawn out version of your story. 

This past five years, and seemingly still you are both pointing fingers. For BOTH of your sakes, drop your metaphoric fingers and just work together, to divorce, to reconcile, to have an open marriage, what ever! JUST STOP BLAMING THE OTHER, you both have EQUALLY now been the fault and problem. You traded the hat occasionally and other times you both wore the hat at the same time. 

You both have sucked at this marriage. Get it together, or not....Just stop blaming each other as more responsible in the dysfunction. 

I get it why you think he sucks....HE TOTALLY DOES.... but i think now it is time for you to get a few things about what you have allowed for your own actions. 

WISHING YOU WELL!


----------



## MattMatt

@frustratedinphx So you came back after five years to insult everyone, even some people who weren't on TAM five years ago?

I think it's time someone did think of the children.


----------



## aine

frustratedinphx said:


> Sweetie, not the entire army- only the ones who judged me and got it wrong. I deserved the comments for *MY* affair. BUT, my 1st post disclosed his affair. He just hadn't admitted it yet- NOT a coincidence. The sitch wasn't black/white, though you tried... **Who wouldn't notice their spouse's affair for 4 years!!!** CLEARLY it wasn't for the sex. I. Wasn't. Hiding. Or. Lying. I didn't need to. He never asked!!! The OM lived in another state. *I saw him 6 times in 4 years* & didn't talk to him regularly. I was working my ass off while raising a young family without DHs help. He was having the time of his life doing whatever he wanted to do & wasn't worried about me.
> 
> Here, cheating was always "100% the fault of the cheater", but... DH let the lynch mob annihilate me for my cheating, but he was a cheater! He threatened to have me put in jail for adultery (a class 3 misdemeanor in AZ). WTF?! I'm still sorry & regret cheating. Never stopped saying so. Just because I don't bow down to you (strangers), doesn't mean I don't to DH. Lynch mob ignored the obvious clues he did too & blamed me for his affair that *we all knew* he had... The double-standard didn't sit well with me & I lit the BS on fire. *DH* knew it was wrong and you do too, but the "fog of male privilege" is as easy to grab as your ****. It's WAY easier to jump on the "wayward cheating ***** wife" (YOUR own relationship wounds ripped open & salted) than accept that you nailed the WS to the cross and ignored BH/WS. Remember *I caught him 1st*. He just lied longer & I didn't press it. I didn't dish the Betrayed Spouse (rage), but sure took it. DH is a great manipulator (the whole addiction thing). He poured the gas on me, lit the match and watched it burn. Wasn't the first time & definitely wasn't the last. Over. My. Dead. Body. Will I let it happen again. NONE of you found it foul that he had a DUI conviction in 2011, in 2018 still doesn't have his license reinstated?? His *sort of* going to AA meetings? Those of you in recovery PLEASE talk about the narcism in addiction. NO ONE connected the dots?? That's ****ed up.
> 
> Why would I talk about DH's feelings? I can only speak to my own. DH wants stay married, but he's insecure & can't control what comes out of his big mouth (HIS WORDS). I want to stay married, but am breaking the pattern of miserable married women in my family. NO ONE will verbally abuse me for the rest of my life. That includes YOU HERE. Take a hard look in the mirror before you rage at me like DH did. YOU wouldn't let anyone else talk to you that way, whether you did something wrong or not. DH knows and acknowledged it too. I swung hard at those who *took pleasure* in taking down a 5'1" 95# woman, like DH did. You showed me! LOL Except... **YOU get what you give, internet bullies!!** Big ugly men don't scare me & I know your balls aren't big enough to say this **** to my face. Aside from defending myself in this post, find one thread with me talking down to anyone. You won't find any...
> 
> MattMatt- What I'm doing? Saying no. Breaking the pattern and being authentically me. Not perfect, but genuinely trying to be a good person & treat everyone equally & kindly. I spent a fortune on therapy & was diagnosed & treated for ADHD. I try to advocate for others with the same plight (there are TONS of us). We ADD'ers are twice as likely to be divorced. I'm trying to teach my kids (all Dx too) inclusion & lead by example. It's not OK for daddy to scream at mommy (or the other way around). It was hard to explain to my 9YO daughter last night why Daddy called Mommy "a piece of garbage." There are always *******s, but if my kids/friends/people I can impact recognize what they do right & and own what they did wrong, some of the sting goes away. I'll never knowingly let another woman get bashed for doing something a man does to her or treated poorly because *he can* treat her that way. I've heard many men say "that ***** cheated on me!" and then under their breath go "... I did too, but she doesn't know..." Not cool. To honor my goals, I started *right here*. I aspire to create a forum for women (& eventually men) to lift each other up, not tear each other down. All of us came to this forum to be heard, to feel validated & get help or return the favor to others. It's high school mentality to decide for everyone how to treat one member because of your *own slanted view* of life. Don't act like you came here out of the kindness of your hearts to help strangers. You're ****ed up too! We all are, but we want to do/be better! Offer your insight or advice. Don't fan the flames with your own wounds & insecurities.
> 
> Don't act like infidelity is this taboo thing that *ONLY* "immoral people" do. The US keeps electing WS presidents (BOTH parties)! "Infidelity" has more posts on this site than any other category! Back in the day, it was expected and condoned (remember my grandparents, the Kennedys, etc??), except that it takes a man & a woman (most of the time) to cheat. *Doesn't make cheating right*, but stop the holier than thou ****! In my book, the content of someone's character is defined by what they do after they **** up... I ate tons of **** and still have a smile on my face even as I punch you in yours for being a hypocrite. My *ONLY* goal in resurrecting this thread from the dead was to call BS for what it was. This world sucks, but it doesn't have to. Personally, I prefer LOVE, not war. Ironic who I married... Lovewins.


Frustrated, enough already! FFS grow up! YOU ought to wash your mouth out with soap. If you go on like this in front of your kids, you are an awful example.

What are you trying to prove, honestly no-one really cares how you are attempting to rationalize what you did. YOU posted so this is about YOU. Your H has his own s*** to deal with granted but honestly, what personal growth have you engaged in, in the last 5 years?

It appears absolutely none, you are on here ranting and raving and throwing rocks at WH and TAM folks, and all for what? Your language is full of resentment, vitriol and anger. Not the words of someone who has changed or grown at all from the mistakes of the past.
Does it make you feel better about yourself? If it allows you to let off steam temporarily, ok fair enough. But on a deeper note, you need to get yourself some help through counselling or therapy to look inwards, to stop blaming all and sundry for your own **** ups. Change begins with YOU and boy you need a lot of work.


----------



## threelittlestars

I personally think we should be patient. She has been through the ringer even if the ringer was of her own making (to some % which is unimportant the amount!) She can grow! she can learn, just as she should not come at us with vitrol we should try to give her some grace....well...I will try. 

5 years of this crap would drive anyone to the nut house!


----------



## 86857

_*"It was hard to explain to my 9YO daughter last night why Daddy called Mommy "a piece of garbage." *_

R isn't working after 5 years, the opposite. The worst thing for children is to witness abuse in the home. Can you imagine how stressed they are, at such a young age, waiting for the next time it happens? Explaining it to them as above simply tells them that it's OK to stay in a marriage. . . even after 5 years. . . if the abuse still going on. I can't think of a worse message. As a parent would you like to see them in such a marriage one day? And staying in it? 

If you're happy they'll be happy. It's that simple. 

In my opinion, divorce is the only option together with counselling to regain your groundedness. 
It sounds like a horrible life to me. Life is short. We're not here forever.


----------



## Gabriel

She really needs to break one off. Like, now.


----------



## SunCMars

You have to say you were wrong, you are remorseful, you were selfish to be 'forgiven'.
This works for those people who have it their hearts, in their vernacular to 'accept' said remorse.

For those who are bitter, for those freshly bitten, no amount of sorrys will redeem the cheater.

For them, these:

You have to 'run the gauntlet'. Run down the center aisle, all eyes upon you.
Never running, doing a soft shuffle. Moving, offering your bare butt for all to swat, all to whip.

And doing so with head bowed, nary a grin, 
Face all puckered up and sorrowful, showing no one, any sign of spin.

This lady, Frustrated IP, did most of this, these things.
Yet, she held her head high, took her blows, sassed a little back, held her ground.

Yea, she remains obstinate, has a hard streak that cannot be erased.
Yea, nay, she chooses not to paint over it, this hard, obstinate streak.

.........................................................................................................

She opened her mouth, and spoke through her mostly straight 'I' teeth.

She bared her abraded un-enamored enamel for all to see, the fouled Wisdom Molar, this, her root cause for all us, to see, to criticize.

She admitted it was never wise, never meeting its intended mettle, it breaking, it stopping short.

She bared all, for all on TAM to glom onto, to point at and laugh-at-her not-really-gaffs.

She withstood the thrown tomatoes, the winged rotten cabbages... agh, of those pitched, none missing this Miss's Mark.. 
Hitting her in her face, obliterating her tattoo, that Scarlett 'A'.

She withered, not a lick, bowed her head, not a lick.

OH, the Lass, she weathered the barrage from the not-so-good ship, 'The USS SunCMars'.

That pirate ship hit the WW with a broadside, his guns, their iron balls struck her flanks, her bare bottom. 
She took hit after hit from that hypocrites vessel, that floating carnival of a boat. With The Host, RD as its 'remote' skipper.
She did not flinch, her hull remained afloat. Any smoke seen came out of her ears, nary, say none, from her 'stern''' look, her 'beaming' pride, her 'broad's side'.

She is a fighter, a worthy Foe. 
Fit for a wife of a Martian, 
She not fit for any weaker soul. 

She needs to be taken to ground, held there.
With a firm grip, a knowing smile.



The CC- 
adapted from The Martian's scant notes.


----------



## hinterdir

frustratedinphx said:


> THE 5 YEAR UPDATE:
> 
> It's 2018 almost 5 years after this implosion... We're still married. Barely... here's what really went down because you all missed A LOT:
> 1. The day after we stopped posting, 7/13/13, BH FINALLY CAME CLEAN. He totally had an affair with the chick in Brazil. I told him "Door's open. Don't let it hit you in the ass on your way out". Looking back, I laugh. She was laughable. I told him "if you want that, go get it!" He stayed put. But, before we got to this, he cried to my mother, his family, our family, our Nanny... about how I treated him so horribly, etc. Yeah, he wasn't so innocent & he fed me to the wolves- all of you, my family, his family, etc. I ate SO MUCH **** for a long time. He told his family "his one night stand", (yeah, not so much) was just that. He neglected to mention the cache of pics of his mistress, naked, the $$ he sent her for "books" (riiiiight!).


Oh, I see, you are both sleazy cheaters but you are the "good", "virtuous" cheater and he's the "bad" cheater. 

Whatever. Enjoy your miserable marriage or divorce or whatever. Neither of you are catches, even though I know you think you are some great catch. 

The world would be better off if neither of you bothered any of the opposite sex out there with either of your unfaithful, blaming, entitled, selfish misery.


----------



## bethebetterman

And so rests the case for D when WW is caught cheating. 

This is a great example of why you cant't believe a word that comes out of their mouths.

Even when she said she would do anything to save her marriage (still don't understand this if the picture she paints of BS is accurate). All she actually did was give reasons for her cheating.

Until she understands that there are no acceptable reasons for this she will not have grown.

She is one of those people who somehow manages to go through life without actually learning anything.

All I see when I read her posts is "poor me" and the usual anger when she does not get the sympathy vote she was clearly fishing for.

As others have said its the children who are going to suffer most in the end because neither WW or BS appear to be capable of owning their own **** and learning from their mistakes.

Just divorce already and give the kids a break from this crap.


----------



## personofinterest

> "It was hard to explain to my 9YO daughter last night why Daddy called Mommy "a piece of garbage."


Because mommy had a boyfriend, and married ladies are not supposed to have boyfriends. And mommy isn't really sorry. She just wants to be mean to daddy.

See? Easy peasy


----------



## Windwalker

personofinterest said:


> Because mommy had a boyfriend, and married ladies are not supposed to have boyfriends. And mommy isn't really sorry. She just wants to be mean to daddy.
> 
> See? Easy peasy


Well that and she wants to sit atop her victim throne to rule over the peasants of TAM. LOL
🤣 🤣 🤣


----------



## Steelman

I'm not sure what you are trying to get out of coming back here. 

You're husband seems like a total mess- a drunken, mean idiot.

Your marriage is absolutely horrible yet you say you both want to stay married.

And you seem like you want to kill someone.

You are the poster children for not staying together after an affair.


----------



## lkegley5

As a wayward wife myself, I read this and see excuses. You started off the topic as your husband being abusive. He could be, however you had the decision to leave before the affair started.

I have learned a lot about my relationship with my husband and I with a lot of self reflection and have helped myself more than any counseling could have ever helped me. Read book, want change etc. 

Helping your relationship starts with helping yourself and being 100% honest. 

Reading more in to the story, it seems your relationship is toxic. You both need help. Hope you can find the help you need. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mr Blunt

Frustratedinphx

You have been through a ton of damage in the last 5 years; some your own doing and some your husband’s doing. You are still suffering from all that damage however, this is what I see:

You have had a lot of success in your youth and in your 20s and 30s
You seem to be a very capable woman
You are a good writer
You make a very good living.... Arizona is a great state and the real estate market is good
You have three children that can give you more added meaning to life
From what you wrote you would be a lot better off not married to the father of your three children

I have only one suggestion for you right now…..Use your abilities and all other helps to get better with your damaged emotions….Start by gaining in forgiveness because that will HELP YOU A LOT!...That will do a whole lot more for you and your children than rehashing the last five years or defending yourself about your previous failures….work on forgiving yourself and others as that is an action for only you and God.
*
I am pretty sure that you know all this but for you to get a lot better you will have to DO IT! That is the beginning key to your improvement. Where are you on this issue?*


----------



## RWB

FiP,

Well that last 5 years of *Soul Searching* worked out well? It is amazing she remembered her login and password though.


----------



## Hexagon

You said something very interesting to me.
You said something along the lines of, "he did hit on me but I'm not interested in someone 20 years older".
This speaks volumes. 

Not, I'm trying to fix my marriage.
Not, I did that once and it didn't work.
Not, ITS WRONG.
Nope, it was his age? 

Sounds to me like you both set fires and are now complaining that it's too hot. 
Good luck.


----------



## StillSearching

This thread makes me want to throw up......in the OPs general direction.


----------



## bandit.45

StillSearching said:


> This thread makes me want to throw up......in the OPs general direction.


It's ok. She's in Phoenix. The heat will evaporate all the moisture out of the vomit before it hits her and turn it into a cloud of dust.


----------



## Red Sonja

And so, she continues to sit on her throne of righteous victimhood, spewing venom, casting blame, pointing fingers … _all while her world burns and her children suffer._

All because she is paralyzed, terrified to look the mirror.


----------



## frustratedinphx

You want the truth? I’m sad and lonely. My marriage is toxic. Why? My parents are toxic. I spent a week with my kids visiting family out of state a week ago. I spent two hours talking to two aunts, one from each side of the family. They both validated that my parents are judgmental and unforgiving. My mother abused my father verbally from the time I was a kid and still does now. Today I know what abuse looks & can call her for it. But she doesn’t like that. My poor dad defends her even as she abuses him.

I learned how to take it along time ago and always did. I read some of the posts in this infidelity forum about how after being treated like dirt, people go out and have affairs. It isn’t right, but it’s one escape from the harsh reality. My affair was more emotional than anything else. It represented the love I wasn’t getting at home and didn’t get as a kid. Now that I know more about it, I’m trying to undo those patterns. They exist throughout my entire family, on both sides.

I talked to my cousins about it while I was on vacation. We talked about how this pattern of abuse affected our own marriages, our parents’ marriages & shamefully affected my grandparents too. My grandfather treated my poor grandma like dirt, except we didn’t know it. All the truth coming out it once was a reality that was a lot for me.

I’ve spent tens of thousands of dollars trying to resolve my abandonment issues that won’t go away. The comment about the older man above? Dating a man 20 years my senior just seems like a destiny with abandonment. Dating/marriage to a man with unresolved issues, whether addiction, personality disorder, or otherwise, in my eyes = abandonment. I was a latchkey kid at age 11. I’ve always had to take care of myself despite whatever life throws at me. I did/do and I thrive. Doesn’t mean I’m not scared or ready to face misery head on.

I credit my husband for addressing his alcoholism (4mos sober-his mom thinks is 6mos, set her straight), ADHD (in treatment), lack of participation in our family. He’s done more in the last 12 mos with/for me & our kids, than in the previous 15 years of our marriage. I’ve been dealing with ALL OF THIS this for 16 years. I’m tired, still lonely and he’s still cruel to me. I can’t tell you how many times he’s thrown me out- of our house of our room, even vacation last month. We were at his nephew’s wedding, our ringbearer. On the morning of the wedding (all 3 kids were in it), he told me to go find my own hotel room and a rental car. Just as quickly, he said he didn’t mean it & wanted me to stay. You can’t take stuff like that back.

My individual counselor (seen since 2007 & regularly since 2013), suggested he may have a dual diagnosis- an addict with a personality disorder. Mind you my counselor has been treating substance abuse for a few decades and is on staff at a hospital. Addiction & mental illness also runs rampant in his family. I researched it & it fits the bill. Addiction & mental illness runs in his family. 

He told me it’s all fixable, but only if hubby is willing. Problem is, he’ll fix some things, but wants me to be the “worse“ one. Whatever his problems are, I have to overcome more. Except, I’ve run out of stuff to fix, except my marriage. I’ve fixed me as much as I can (do we ever stop trying to be better?), but he generalizes my issues & can’t name anything specific other than I’m “the one starting the arguments”. [side-note: I don’t have to say anything for him to get & stay angry. He can get there all by himself.]

I’m ashamed to admit this, in December since caught him high, drunk and in women’s clothes (claimed he bought them for me). In March I found him high, drunk & passed out in a room full of sex toys at 7 AM on a school morning). The sex toys are because of our “sexless marriage”... I’m not getting any either, but I know porn isn’t the answer. He didn’t help me get our kids to school and was passed out in the shower- dangerous on its own. If our kids came in and saw everything out, that would’ve been child abuse. He’s been high and drunk in the middle the day while working many times throughout the years. So, he’s unfortunately unreliable as a parent too. 

Then, he admitted that he was sexually abused at 8 for ~6mos. *ah-ha moment* 1-2mos later another friend admitted being abused for years as a kid. My friend isn’t not angry or bitter though. He’s had a pretty great life. He’s a pseudo celebrity- no exaggeration. Heovercame a lot & is now a life coach trying to help others out of the “victim mentality”. *Maybe not*

My husband is unwilling to go to counseling, deal with or talk about his secret that *only I* know. I’m supposed to deal with the fallout all on my own? Sadly because addicts lie (he’s a dry drunk), I’m starting to worry about whether thats even real. I feel guilty questioning it, but I have to.

As a parent, I’m scared. I’m not doing my kids favors by exposing them to all this. I sat down with him last week and quietly, carefully begged him to go seek a full psychiatric evaluation. I read to him what I suspected, laid out my concerns (users guide) and it seemed he was willing to go. My counselor agreed last week I wasn’t “enabling“ him by giving him referrals for psychiatrists. I gave him 2. One his family handpicked by 3yrs ago to evaluate *me* for mental illness during my “intervention” he helped set up in 2015. I could have revolted, but I went. Maybe I was missing something & could be a better person for it. 

She concluded I had ADHD, except by that time I’d been diagnosed and treated for 2 years. His family though I was “self-diagnosed”. She also said I had adjustment disorder (a sh*tty situation- duh) & that it sounded like he needed help. I called her 2 days. We discussed that borderline personality disorder might be the issue- not her specialty. She referred another, who I passed on to him. Even though, the referral is in-network & the office 1.5mi away from us, it seems he has no intention of going.

Today I gave him the ultimatum- get an evaluation by the end of this week to rule out & potentially treat mental illness, or I had 2 choices- stay and risk my/our kids’ sanity/safety or leave. The 1st isn’t an option. That leaves 1.
His response was “It is already just me and has been for a really long time.**It’s clear you are unwilling to acknowledge your part in ongoing conflict.**You can spin it and act like you’re being asked to take responsibility for my parts, but that isn’t true.***I was willing to explore and investigate with you, but not for you.***You can be out -- there is no reason to wait until the end of the week.”

My affair was wrong, but it was my attempt at escape. I consulted a divorce attorney BEFORE my affair crossed my mind. The guy told me I couldn’t- something about having no rights to my unborn child. Sounded like garbage, but I was stuck. My counselor knew & advised me to seek support from a girlfriend, but I didn’t listen. He was the first one to tell me I’d be ok if I left, that was years before the madness. I’ve done all I can do & have to draw the line. Tell me how you’d have handled it better, then realize it’s not your life to live or judge. 

Thanks for the insults, berating me, judgement & everything else. I know what I have to do & will spend the rest of my life telling everyone who’ll listen to: respect & believe in themself, that no one deserves to be abused, that people can change if they want to and that everyone deserves love, but not at the expense of another. I hope to make a difference to anyone going through it or anyone peering into this kind of situation. It’s not black & white. Guess I’ll be busy for a while... thanks for making it to end.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Adelais

I don't hear that you are repentant, or really acknowledge that you are a mess. You just make excuses and justify your actions.

Have you gone to God and told him what a mess you are? That you don't even listen to your counselors and have made further messes of your and other people's lives?

Have you asked God to take over your life for you? He will do a better job at managing your life than you are.

I think that is where you are now. Nothing is working for you, and you need to give yourself and all the control over to God to clean up you and your life.

You have been trying to control everything for a very long time, and it hasn't worked out, because you are a large part of the problem. That is why you need to give yourself completely to God's control.

Until you do that, your life is going to continue the way it is. You need a miracle.


----------



## TRy

frustratedinphx said:


> Today I gave him the ultimatum- get an evaluation by the end of this week to rule out & potentially treat mental illness, or I had 2 choices- stay and risk my/our kids’ sanity/safety or leave. The 1st isn’t an option. That leaves 1. His response was “It is already just me and has been for a really long time.**It’s clear you are unwilling to acknowledge your part in ongoing conflict.**You can spin it and act like you’re being asked to take responsibility for my parts, but that isn’t true.***I was willing to explore and investigate with you, but not for you.***You can be out -- there is no reason to wait until the end of the week.”


The thread was so long that I only had time to read mostly your posts, and I am commenting based primarily on only your point of view where you cast yourself in the best light possible. Even with this advantage, you come across as such a deliberately unremorseful and blame shifting cheater that I at first wondered if you might be a troll trying to provoke a response. The fact is that if your husband posted directly to this site and told us that in response to your "ultimatum" he told you that “You can be out -- there is no reason to wait until the end of the week”, it would have been one of the most liked posts on this site. I also liked the quote where he said "I was willing to explore and investigate with you, but not for you", and intend to steal it for use it in other posts. Heck, I liked all of his quotes. When you are done posting to this site, please tell him to post here on this site, as others could benefit from his input.


----------



## dreamer2017

Dear frustratedinphx,

I've followed your thread and the devastation touched my heart. Would it be possible to PM you?

Best,
Dreamer


----------



## sokillme

This sounds very toxic. I suggest you both separate. You are both so damaged that you only contribute to each others problems. It's not good for your kids. They need some stability not the two of your issues bouncing off each other and causing drama. I would seriously consider separating for a while just to calm down.


----------



## threelittlestars

OP, you got my message. Keep messaging me if you like. These guys already convicted you.


----------



## Oceania

I've only read your first and last post and a couple in between. All I can feel is just your exhaustion and 'where to from here' with it all. Sometimes it's just better to separate and in this case it might be better for your children. Hopefully you'll both be able to heal apart from each other and in time be able to forgive each other. All the best to you both.


----------



## Red Sonja

Respectfully, at some point you are going to have stop demonizing your husband, your relatives and your childhood and instead start working on yourself in order to become an _emotionally healthy adult_ for you and your children. If your therapist is allowing you to sit in session after session lambasting your husband and others then s/he is not helping you and you need to find another. You cannot change your husband, relatives or the past but what you can change is yourself and your circumstances.

Most people in this world have experienced troubled childhoods (to some degree), many people have chosen bad marriage partners because of patterns learned from dysfunctional childhood experiences … none of that excuses avoiding looking at one’s own behavior and choices in order to realize where they went wrong and improve. Blaming others and choosing an identify of a “victim of others or circumstances” (which is what you are doing) may give you a sense of control and righteousness, however it’s an illusion. It does not lead to happiness, peace or living an authentic life, rather it leads to anger and depression in the long term.

Stop the dysfunctional dance you are in with your husband and yes you are part of that dysfunction. Just stop, change your focus onto yourself and your children. Dig deep, find out what’s in YOU that drove YOU to get yourself to where you are now, what choices YOU made so that YOU can change and make better choices in the future … that is your starting point.


Do I have compassion for your situation? Of course I do, I was married to a covert-narcissist (diagnosed) for 28 years so BTDT, however sympathy will not help you to change your situation ... all it will do is keep you stagnant, in this same mess, until you crash from emotional exhaustion.


----------



## Oceania

Sigh...


----------



## ConanHub

Regardless of how this situation developed, if hubby is getting drunk/high and getting freaky with clothes and toys while passing out with the possibility of being found by the kids, you need to consider their safety and remove them as well as yourself.

You deserve some shame and derision for your actions and probably divorce, however, he apparently does as well.

Get your legal ducks in a row and get your children off this crazy train. Your husband and you have made a mess that your children do not deserve to be in.

They are the real victims here.

Get yourself healthy and don't worry about if your husband will or not until you have yourself and your children in a good place.

I wouldn't even consider a relationship, with your husband or anyone else, until you get healthy for a while.

Take care.


----------



## personofinterest

Do you take any responsibility for your choices, or is it all others' fault?


----------



## frustratedinphx

personofinterest said:


> Do you take any responsibility for your choices, or is it all others' fault?



I’m off to therapy now as I’ve gone for 5 years. Both God & my therapist know what I have & haven’t done. Most of you have been judge and jury and I won’t expect a fair shake from here on out. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## threelittlestars

frustratedinphx said:


> I’m off to therapy now as I’ve gone for 5 years. Both God & my therapist know what I have & haven’t done. Most of you have been judge and jury and I won’t expect a fair shake from here on out.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Nah you likely wont. Just keep in mind before you think us all jerks, just know we have all been deeply hurt by our spouses, and just like you many of us are still raw. 

Be excellent to each other.  

Just work on you and let the pieces fall where they may.


----------



## personofinterest

frustratedinphx said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you take any responsibility for your choices, or is it all others' fault?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I’m off to therapy now as I’ve gone for 5 years. Both God & my therapist know what I have & haven’t done. Most of you have been judge and jury and I won’t expect a fair shake from here on out.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

So....that's a no?


----------



## frustratedinphx

personofinterest said:


> Do you take any responsibility for your choices, or is it all others' fault?



What is it you would have done, besides what I assume is NEVER be in my shoes? Woman to woman- please tell me.
(If any men want to chime in, please do.)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## personofinterest

frustratedinphx said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you take any responsibility for your choices, or is it all others' fault?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is it you would have done, besides what I assume is NEVER be in my shoes? Woman to woman- please tell me.
> (If any men want to chime in, please do.)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Well, let's see: contrition, humility, not deflecting to what my husband did, not being defensive and *****y to total strangers, not going into forum threads defending cheaters..


----------



## happy as a clam

What is the point of this “marriage”?

You’re both addicted to this sick, toxic drama. You’re both addicts.

I feel very sorry for your kids. They really don’t stand a chance. Looks like they’re doomed to inherit the same pile of **** drama you say you inherited from your narcissistic parents.


----------



## frustratedinphx

personofinterest said:


> Well, let's see: contrition, humility, not deflecting to what my husband did, not being defensive and *****y to total strangers, not going into forum threads defending cheaters..


I spent years apologizing to my husband for MY affair (still do) & apologized to *his* parents. Had years of therapy, reading about affairs/healing, acknowledging/working on my flaws... Remember, I’m both WS AND BS & have a right to feel hurt. We didn’t dig into his affair- he couldn’t/wouldn’t, but I took it on the chin and still do. Couldn’t tell you the last time he apologized to me. He never really did. Even blamed *me* for his.

His grief became revenge, then jealousy & abuse at me. I’m fairly confident he’s BPD as qualified professionals familiar with our marriage hinted to me. His related narcissism & addictions are hell, but I’ve stood by him taking it alone for 18yrs.

Neither of us deserved infidelity. I don’t deserve his abuse or the beating I’m still taking from you & the others. My BS/WS admitted he said/did things husbands should never do to wives, but he still does. Ironic none of that matters. I have a right to be angry, but agree how I expressed it wasn’t the way to do it. I’m sorry to those I offended & am working on it. 

Why my family comes in... unless I knew how/why I strayed, I (& our kids) was at risk of repeating bad choices. I turned inward and finally saw pervasive generational, familial behavior patterns everywhere, including my brother’s 3YO marriage. Enlightening! I challenge anyone to it, but it ain’t for the weak. My close relatives (outside my nuclear family) validated these patterns. I WON’T participate in/repeat them bc I can identify them.

I now I’m worthy of love, compassion & understanding, just as you, my BS/WS and those who bash me are. I won’t apologize for my growth/strength 5 YEARS later and guess you wouldn’t either. I bet you’d like me shut down, cry & feel BAD because *you think* I “deserve it”! Many of you are critical & cruel- not just to me. Are you (& others) ****ty & judgmental to a total stranger (me)?

Cheaters have no defense- I don’t defend them. I quoted my therapist saying “Affairs don’t happen in a vacuum”. He also says “An affair is usually a SYMPTOM of a bad marriage, not the cause.” 

Consider this- My affair ended in 3/2012. My husband’s started in 11/2012. I caught him in 2/2013- told no one. He caught mine in 6/2013 when I started his thread & told both our families, close friends & my clients. He finally admitted his in 7/2013. Did you read this thread or my posts before this one? It was crap long before my affair started in 3/2008 (there’s one about it too). See how our affairs were *symptoms, not cause* of our bad marriage. I have better perspective now. Most BSs can’t say their marriage was emotionally, spiritually, etc. what they wanted & needed before D-day, even if they treated their spouse well. 

My husband hasn’t done the same heavy lifting I did- our real problem. We’ve fixed some of “our” issues, but he hasn’t touched most of his. Not enough to save what’s left. Who battles addiction or mental illness with an app? At least I recognize it. Can I rename this thread “I thought I had it all, not much left to throw away”?



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## frustratedinphx

happy as a clam said:


> What is the point of this “marriage”?
> 
> You’re both addicted to this sick, toxic drama. You’re both addicts.
> 
> I feel very sorry for your kids. They really don’t stand a chance. Looks like they’re doomed to inherit the same pile of **** drama you say you inherited from your narcissistic parents.




Unless you’ve tried to walk away from a narcissist, you don’t know how hard it is. I’d happily divorce my parents, but it wouldn’t be good for my kids. I limit my interaction with them instead.

Anyone else want to pile on? See how mean and/or condescending can you be! It’ll make you no better than the people you scorn. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## badbane

Okay so here is what I think is the confusing thing from a lot of perspectives.
The name of this thread was "I had it and and threw it away."
The Thread starts and it seams you had an okay marriage but there was a lack of intimacy and you strayed outside of your marriage to get it.

15 - 20 pages in you finally state that the marriage was crap. My guess the marriage has been crap the entire time. My guess is that guilt drove your first post and you framed your relationship, despite everything outside of your frame was ugly.

So your in a marriage with an addict with long term issues. You both did not do what was necessary to resolve those issues and instead of ending the relationships you both decided to stay in it but get what you are needing from outside of your relation ship. Making your true relation ship worse. You both have mental/behavioral issues.

Honestly this relationship is not one. Please, one of you, make a decision and stick to it. If you want to stay stay and be ready to deal with the pain of reconciliation, and his recovery/treatment. If you don't want to stay hire a lawyer. Either way it seems like neither of you really want to be in this but both of you are too scared to pull the trigger.


----------



## threelittlestars

Affairs are not symptoms of a bad marriage. Although I understand why you are thinking that. 

Affairs are a symptom of an mentally unhealthy individual who seeks and escape from their reality because they don't have the courage to face it head on. OR they do have the courage but they lack understanding on why they are mentally unhealthy. 

(I have mental health issues. Depression and ADHD, as you know.) So i don't say that as a terrible thing. We all have our demons, but if you are a mentally unhealthy individual you are incapable of a healthy marriage. But the other individual in the marriage could be doing just about EVERY thing right. It happens. 

The marriage is just one place in the chain of events. It is by no means the root.... This is why there are serial cheaters. They bounce to and fro... But their partners may be perfect. It wont matter, because it is the individual.


----------



## badbane

threelittlestars said:


> Affairs are not symptoms of a bad marriage. Although I understand why you are thinking that.
> 
> Affairs are a symptom of an mentally unhealthy individual who seeks and escape from their reality because they don't have the courage to face it head on. OR they do have the courage but they lack understanding on why they are mentally unhealthy.
> 
> (I have mental health issues. Depression and ADHD, as you know.) So i don't say that as a terrible thing. We all have our demons, but if you are a mentally unhealthy individual you are incapable of a healthy marriage. But the other individual in the marriage could be doing just about EVERY thing right. It happens.
> 
> The marriage is just one place in the chain of events. It is by no means the root.... This is why there are serial cheaters. They bounce to and fro... But their partners may be perfect. It wont matter, because it is the individual.


I disagree with the absolute statement here. Just from reading this site alone I have seen perfectly normal (being mentally healthy people fall into bad situations and make mistakes.) Not all cheaters are serial cheaters. Sure Affairs can be an indication of someone being mentally unhealthy, just like they can be a symptom of a bad marriage, but it isn't an absolute.


----------



## threelittlestars

badbane said:


> I disagree with the absolute statement here. Just from reading this site alone I have seen perfectly normal (being mentally healthy people fall into bad situations and make mistakes.) Not all cheaters are serial cheaters. Sure Affairs can be an indication of someone being mentally unhealthy, just like they can be a symptom of a bad marriage, but it isn't an absolute.



Nothing is absolute. And I never said every cheater was a serial cheater. (reading between the lines) I used serial cheaters as and example. 

Also mentally unhealthy people can have a good and functioning marriage, but not if they are in denial about their own idiosyncrasies. So mentally unhealthy people can become healthy by working on and observing their problems.


----------



## frustratedinphx

badbane said:


> I disagree with the absolute statement here. Just from reading this site alone I have seen perfectly normal (being mentally healthy people fall into bad situations and make mistakes.) Not all cheaters are serial cheaters. Sure Affairs can be an indication of someone being mentally unhealthy, just like they can be a symptom of a bad marriage, but it isn't an absolute.




That’s what I meant by “affairs are a symptom of a bad marriage”. The BS doesn’t need to be the one that does something wrong. The WS can be the cheater and have the “issue”, or the BS exhibited some behavior that drove the WS to withdraw. Either way there was probably something bad going on in the marriage at the time. If the marriage was truly healthy, cheating would be unlikely. Not impossible, but unlikely. Things are “good” & “normal” until you realize they aren’t, right? Perspective is a helluva thing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## badbane

frustratedinphx said:


> That’s what I meant by “affairs are a symptom of a bad marriage”. The BS doesn’t need to be the one that does something wrong. The WS can be the cheater and have the “issue”, but either way there was probably something bad in the marriage at the time. If the marriage was truly healthy, cheating would be unlikely. Not impossible, but unlikely. Things are “good” & “normal” until you realize they aren’t, right? Perspective is a helluva thing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


My wife was in an abusive relationship for 11 years and when she had her EA's it hurt. But honestly it broke the len's i put on to ignore all the cracks i was ignoring. Financial, emotional, deception, that was what nearly ended it in the end. It go so far as me initiating a divorce and service her for her to actually deal with the emotional damage and compulsions stemming from them resulting in her acting out. Now that I know about it and we have dealt/are dealing with her problems our relationship is much better. Nowhere near perfect but I'll take 7/10 good days over pretending everything is perfect.


----------



## frustratedinphx

badbane said:


> My wife was in an abusive relationship for 11 years and when she had her EA's it hurt. But honestly it broke the len's i put on to ignore all the cracks i was ignoring. Financial, emotional, deception, that was what nearly ended it in the end. It go so far as me initiating a divorce and service her for her to actually deal with the emotional damage and compulsions stemming from them resulting in her acting out. Now that I know about it and we have dealt/are dealing with her problems our relationship is much better. Nowhere near perfect but I'll take 7/10 good days over pretending everything is perfect.




Were you the one abusing her? If so, thanks for your honesty & I applaud your self-reflection. If it wasn’t you, you’re still to be commended. A friend had to do the same for her husband. They so appreciate each other after all they’ve endured. Marriage is hard.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## badbane

No I am the 2nd husband. I got to be the guy that had to deal with all the PTSD, OCD, 2 step kids, and her financial ruin. But when you're young love conquers all right......... no. Despite the bad there is a lot of good in our relationship. I have to stay vigilante and giver her some tough love now and then.


----------



## frustratedinphx

badbane said:


> No I am the 2nd husband. I got to be the guy that had to deal with all the PTSD, OCD, 2 step kids, and her financial ruin. But when you're young love conquers all right......... no. Despite the bad there is a lot of good in our relationship. I have to stay vigilante and giver her some tough love now and then.




It’s a hard situation, but you were man enough to try. I bet she really appreciates even more for it. It’s pretty admirable bc most wouldn’t. Nothing worth anything comes easy. She must be quite special to you. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## badbane

frustratedinphx said:


> It’s a hard situation, but you were man enough to try. I bet she really appreciates even more for it. It’s pretty admirable bc most wouldn’t. Nothing worth anything comes easy. She must be quite special to you.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


She is but don't tell her I said so, I don't need her head getting too big. She'll think she can negotiate moving the punching bag out of the house again.:grin2:


----------



## Bluesclues

frustratedinphx said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you take any responsibility for your choices, or is it all others' fault?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is it you would have done, besides what I assume is NEVER be in my shoes? Woman to woman- please tell me.
> (If any men want to chime in, please do.)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I have been in similar shoes. Actually much more uncomfortable shoes. It is hard to read comments and not think everyone is a sanctimonious ass who would NEVER do what you did, what I did. Many are the same BS who claim they are such “healthy people” that they would never yell and scream, never say a bad word about their WS, because - the children. Certain BS on this site go up my ass sideways when they comment (PoI isn’t one of them btw) 

For a long time I have contemplated starting a thread about being cheating on when you are a narcissist. Everyone throws that term around about the cheater, but what happens when the narcissist is cheated on? It isn’t good. Ask me how I know. 

I think you need a new therapist. There are a lot more bad ones than good. And if they haven’t even hinted to you that you are on the high side of the narcissism spectrum in five years, they are crap. I started IC after my first husband cheated. And I only started because our MC said I was waaaay too angry for couples counseling. I had no idea that my thought processes were anything but normal. It was certainly eye opening. 

I think what people are responding to with you is that you are still holding on tight, defending yourself, comparing yourself and what you have done to make amends to what your husband has done or hasn’t done - you are looking for justice where there is none. Let go of the rope. 

I couldn’t just let go of the rope and move on like a “healthy person”. I tried to R but this gnawing feeling of competition and that I was losing for taking back this man that was beneath me was overpowering. I left my cheating husband by having an exit affair. I married my exit affair. Booted the XH out and moved the new tall handsome one in. And it wasn’t just some random guy, it was my first love, so my XH even felt it was justified. It took me a long time to realize that I wasn’t justified in what I did. I was wrong. Not for leaving, but how I did it. 

I despise the whole “two wrongs don’t make a right” thing. That is another thing that sanctimonious BS say that I hate. Worse when a WS says it. It is flippant and juvenile and usually uttered by those that think they are better than everyone else. But nonetheless true. I have learned to isolate my wrongs in writing clear statements without but/because. “I cheated on my husband”. I journaled the but/because until I ran out. I also did the exercise with “XH cheated on Bluesclues” and wrote out the but/because. Now I am not XH so I probably missed some - but none justified him cheating. And therefore none of mine reasons did either. 

I am not judging your cheating. I am judging your inability to untangle the knots after five years. Other posters have suggested your are both narcissists. If true, you can’t do anything about your husband, but you can help yourself. Find a new therapist.


----------



## Taxman

Frustrated, I have but one thing to say. If your husband is not BPD, I will eat my hat. I, unfortunately, was in business with the spouse of a BPD. It single-handedly ruined our company. We had a great thing going, he was sales, and I was the inside guy. She kept melting down, accusing, getting in the kids faces, nasty creature. Narcissistic as hell, openly refers to herself as a MILF. You get the drift, a cluster fuçk in the first degree. She destroyed the poor SOB. He kept retreating to a vacation property up north. Couldn't make sales from the deck of his vacation home. We parted company, and I walked away wiser, but even financially, it would have blown to have lost money on her. He likely won't get help. Probably not in him, and his way is likely comfortable to him. He likely broods and runs the same litany of hurts over and over in his head. If he is drinking, then you have to save yourself and your kids. Alcohol and BPD only escalates erratic behaviors. Been around that as well. (Cool mom had the cops visit her for serving alcohol to minors). That kind of thing. He has already gotten a DUI, hasn't he?


----------



## frustratedinphx

Bluesclues said:


> I have been in similar shoes. Actually much more uncomfortable shoes. It is hard to read comments and not think everyone is a sanctimonious ass who would NEVER do what you did, what I did. Many are the same BS who claim they are such “healthy people” that they would never yell and scream, never say a bad word about their WS, because - the children. Certain BS on this site go up my ass sideways when they comment (PoI isn’t one of them btw)
> 
> For a long time I have contemplated starting a thread about being cheating on when you are a narcissist. Everyone throws that term around about the cheater, but what happens when the narcissist is cheated on? It isn’t good. Ask me how I know.
> 
> I think you need a new therapist. There are a lot more bad ones than good. And if they haven’t even hinted to you that you are on the high side of the narcissism spectrum in five years, they are crap. I started IC after my first husband cheated. And I only started because our MC said I was waaaay too angry for couples counseling. I had no idea that my thought processes were anything but normal. It was certainly eye opening.
> 
> I think what people are responding to with you is that you are still holding on tight, defending yourself, comparing yourself and what you have done to make amends to what your husband has done or hasn’t done - you are looking for justice where there is none. Let go of the rope.
> 
> I couldn’t just let go of the rope and move on like a “healthy person”. I tried to R but this gnawing feeling of competition and that I was losing for taking back this man that was beneath me was overpowering. I left my cheating husband by having an exit affair. I married my exit affair. Booted the XH out and moved the new tall handsome one in. And it wasn’t just some random guy, it was my first love, so my XH even felt it was justified. It took me a long time to realize that I wasn’t justified in what I did. I was wrong. Not for leaving, but how I did it.
> 
> I despise the whole “two wrongs don’t make a right” thing. That is another thing that sanctimonious BS say that I hate. Worse when a WS says it. It is flippant and juvenile and usually uttered by those that think they are better than everyone else. But nonetheless true. I have learned to isolate my wrongs in writing clear statements without but/because. “I cheated on my husband”. I journaled the but/because until I ran out. I also did the exercise with “XH cheated on Bluesclues” and wrote out the but/because. Now I am not XH so I probably missed some - but none justified him cheating. And therefore none of mine reasons did either.
> 
> I am not judging your cheating. I am judging your inability to untangle the knots after five years. Other posters have suggested your are both narcissists. If true, you can’t do anything about your husband, but you can help yourself. Find a new therapist.



I’m sure I had narcissistic traits when I started this thread, more than it’s “healthy” to have. How do I know I’m not a true “narcissist”? I have empathy. Narcissists don’t. Getting caught knocked me down a notch (OK- 1000). How can I call my husband a narcissist? Addicts are. Google it. Their underdeveloped, immature thinking makes them prioritize their “drug” over everything & everyone else. If I’m right about him being BPD, it’s one more checkbox checked off. Borders & Narcs are very similar. Beyond that, one day I googled “husband lies to family about wife”. Most of the first several pages were about narcissists. I didn’t arbitrarily pick that term. The more I read, the more validation I got. I wish I was wrong, but don’t think I have that luck.

You’re a BS/WS like me. Are you an awful person or did you do an awful thing given your circumstances. I’m sure your XH made you pay. Right or wrong, you’re happy now. Right? My problem is that I’m an empath to my core. Even as I sit unwilling to live in the house with my husband, I worry he’s OK. That he won’t break down or split & do something to drive away our kids and be truly alone. I don’t want that for him. I just don’t want to be treated like dirt and be forced to to be accountable for all OUR baggage. I can only own mine.

My therapist isn’t perfect, but he’s good “enough”. This morning after I said maybe I was depressed & that there was something wrong with me, he told me everyone has to be a little selfish sometimes to be emotionally healthy. It’s how we set our boundaries. It’s “unhealthy” when you can’t *stop* being selfish. A “healthy” person knows when to draw the line. I love the new concept of “good enough”. Perfection is unhealthy IMHO. BTW- he was also “our” MC at one point. When my BS quit going, I kept going for me.

I came back here after I grew a spine to tell everyone to back the f* off. Also to say, people are really good liars. My BS came to this post to tell his story, but not to tell the truth. My return 5yrs later was a cautionary tale that by beefing up a BS/liar, they were inadvertently harming another. In my case- me. I couldn’t have done this without serious internal change. You’re another living example. Thanks for sharing your story. I can imagine how it sucked, but you understand my truth. I’m glad you’re on the other side of it now. You give me hope.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## frustratedinphx

Taxman said:


> Frustrated, I have but one thing to say. If your husband is not BPD, I will eat my hat. I, unfortunately, was in business with the spouse of a BPD. It single-handedly ruined our company. We had a great thing going, he was sales, and I was the inside guy. She kept melting down, accusing, getting in the kids faces, nasty creature. Narcissistic as hell, openly refers to herself as a MILF. You get the drift, a cluster fuçk in the first degree. She destroyed the poor SOB. He kept retreating to a vacation property up north. Couldn't make sales from the deck of his vacation home. We parted company, and I walked away wiser, but even financially, it would have blown to have lost money on her. He likely won't get help. Probably not in him, and his way is likely comfortable to him. He likely broods and runs the same litany of hurts over and over in his head. If he is drinking, then you have to save yourself and your kids. Alcohol and BPD only escalates erratic behaviors. Been around that as well. (Cool mom had the cops visit her for serving alcohol to minors). That kind of thing. He has already gotten a DUI, hasn't he?




Extreme DUI in 2011 while I was far away at my Grandma’s funeral. It took nagging for 5 years & 2 tries starting from 2016 for him to get his interlock device time done (12 month sentence). Comes off in 2 weeks, but he was adamant that he had “fulfilled his legal obligation” and told everyone so. They believed him. The stress from that alone has been insane. Never mind the rest.

Today he’s sober, but not in treatment- a dry drunk. I didn’t know what that was until he told me. This is why my therapist is like gold to me. He understands addiction inside and out. It’s existed in his family for 4 generations. One of his own kids is an addict. Both of them have ADHD. He helps me sort that out from everything else. It’s too much for another one to sift through, let alone be intimately knowledgeable about. He keeps me honest about my situation.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Shoyoself

frustratedinphx said:


> I came back here after I grew a spine to tell everyone to back the f* off.


So you started posting intentionally inflammatory advice just to get people to call you out? Just so you can feel better by telling them to back the f* off? 

Wow. From what you have posted you have some serious issues that you seem ever so happy to ignore.


----------



## frustratedinphx

Shoyoself said:


> So you started posting intentionally inflammatory advice just to get people to call you out? Just so you can feel better by telling them to back the f* off?
> 
> Wow. From what you have posted you have some serious issues that you seem ever so happy to ignore.



Hmm... you missed some.



frustratedinphx said:


> Also to say, people are really good liars. My BS came to this post to tell his story, but not to tell the truth. My return 5yrs later was a cautionary tale that by beefing up a BS/liar, they were inadvertently harming another. In my case- me.



I think @Bluesclues drove what I said home. You should read what she wrote too.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Bluesclues

frustratedinphx said:


> Bluesclues said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have been in similar shoes. Actually much more uncomfortable shoes. It is hard to read comments and not think everyone is a sanctimonious ass who would NEVER do what you did, what I did. Many are the same BS who claim they are such “healthy people” that they would never yell and scream, never say a bad word about their WS, because - the children. Certain BS on this site go up my ass sideways when they comment (PoI isn’t one of them btw)
> 
> For a long time I have contemplated starting a thread about being cheating on when you are a narcissist. Everyone throws that term around about the cheater, but what happens when the narcissist is cheated on? It isn’t good. Ask me how I know.
> 
> I think you need a new therapist. There are a lot more bad ones than good. And if they haven’t even hinted to you that you are on the high side of the narcissism spectrum in five years, they are crap. I started IC after my first husband cheated. And I only started because our MC said I was waaaay too angry for couples counseling. I had no idea that my thought processes were anything but normal. It was certainly eye opening.
> 
> I think what people are responding to with you is that you are still holding on tight, defending yourself, comparing yourself and what you have done to make amends to what your husband has done or hasn’t done - you are looking for justice where there is none. Let go of the rope.
> 
> I couldn’t just let go of the rope and move on like a “healthy person”. I tried to R but this gnawing feeling of competition and that I was losing for taking back this man that was beneath me was overpowering. I left my cheating husband by having an exit affair. I married my exit affair. Booted the XH out and moved the new tall handsome one in. And it wasn’t just some random guy, it was my first love, so my XH even felt it was justified. It took me a long time to realize that I wasn’t justified in what I did. I was wrong. Not for leaving, but how I did it.
> 
> I despise the whole “two wrongs don’t make a right” thing. That is another thing that sanctimonious BS say that I hate. Worse when a WS says it. It is flippant and juvenile and usually uttered by those that think they are better than everyone else. But nonetheless true. I have learned to isolate my wrongs in writing clear statements without but/because. “I cheated on my husband”. I journaled the but/because until I ran out. I also did the exercise with “XH cheated on Bluesclues” and wrote out the but/because. Now I am not XH so I probably missed some - but none justified him cheating. And therefore none of mine reasons did either.
> 
> I am not judging your cheating. I am judging your inability to untangle the knots after five years. Other posters have suggested your are both narcissists. If true, you can’t do anything about your husband, but you can help yourself. Find a new therapist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I’m sure I had narcissistic traits when I started this thread, more than it’s “healthy” to have. How do I know I’m not a true “narcissist”? I have empathy. Narcissists don’t. Getting caught knocked me down a notch (OK- 1000). How can I call my husband a narcissist? Addicts are. Google it. Their underdeveloped, immature thinking makes them prioritize their “drug” over everything & everyone else. If I’m right about him being BPD, it’s one more checkbox checked off. Borders & Narcs are very similar. Beyond that, one day I googled “husband lies to family about wife”. Most of the first several pages were about narcissists. I didn’t arbitrarily pick that term. The more I read, the more validation I got. I wish I was wrong, but don’t think I have that luck.
> 
> You’re a BS/WS like me. Are you an awful person or did you do an awful thing given your circumstances. I’m sure your XH made you pay. Right or wrong, you’re happy now. Right? My problem is that I’m an empath to my core. Even as I sit unwilling to live in the house with my husband, I worry he’s OK. That he won’t break down or split & do something to drive away our kids and be truly alone. I don’t want that for him. I just don’t want to be treated like dirt and be forced to to be accountable for all OUR baggage. I can only own mine.
> 
> My therapist isn’t perfect, but he’s good “enough”. This morning after I said maybe I was depressed & that there was something wrong with me, he told me everyone has to be a little selfish sometimes to be emotionally healthy. It’s how we set our boundaries. It’s “unhealthy” when you can’t *stop* being selfish. A “healthy” person knows when to draw the line. I love the new concept of “good enough”. Perfection is unhealthy IMHO. BTW- he was also “our” MC at one point. When my BS quit going, I kept going for me.
> 
> I came back here after I grew a spine to tell everyone to back the f* off. Also to say, people are really good liars. My BS came to this post to tell his story, but not to tell the truth. My return 5yrs later was a cautionary tale that by beefing up a BS/liar, they were inadvertently harming another. In my case- me. I couldn’t have done this without serious internal change. You’re another living example. Thanks for sharing your story. I can imagine how it sucked, but you understand my truth. I’m glad you’re on the other side of it now. You give me hope.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I was shocked when my therapist hinted at me being narcissistic because I am such an empath. She didn’t say NPD, she just hinted at the idea of narcissism. And as I have worked through things over the years I have realized I am extremely empathic, but I get something from it. I like to be the hero, the savior, the healer, the martyr. Some might label that codependent 

I am a BS twice over - I am here at TAM to deal with the infidelity of my second husband (remember the first love I mentioned?). We are 4 1/2 years out. I thought he was NPD because he was so selfish (not just cheating), he had major addiction issue with alcohol, apparently prescription drugs before. He lost jobs, went to detox multiple times. It was really hard. And when we took the online tests and found out HE was normal and I was the narcissist? Oh hell no. I paid a professional to retest us - same. The drunk/drug manipulator is normal and I am the ****ing narcissist. Ha! Do you know how mind bending that was? I give and give and do everything for everybody. And I am a narcissist?


----------



## happy as a clam

frustratedinphx said:


> Unless you’ve tried to walk away from a narcissist, you don’t know how hard it is.


I have walked away from a pathological narcissist. I was married to him for 20 years.



frustratedinphx said:


> I’d happily divorce my parents, but it wouldn’t be good for my kids.


I have to disagree here. Your children are experiencing the same dysfunction that you experienced from your parents. You can’t hide this stuff from kids no matter how much you try to limit the interaction.


----------



## frustratedinphx

Bluesclues said:


> I was shocked when my therapist hinted at me being narcissistic because I am such an empath. She didn’t say NPD, she just hinted at the idea of narcissism. And as I have worked through things over the years I have realized I am extremely empathic, but I get something from it. I like to be the hero, the savior, the healer, the martyr. Some might label that codependent
> 
> I am a BS twice over - I am here at TAM to deal with the infidelity of my second husband (remember the first love I mentioned?). We are 4 1/2 years out. I thought he was NPD because he was so selfish (not just cheating), he had major addiction issue with alcohol, apparently prescription drugs before. He lost jobs, went to detox multiple times. It was really hard. And when we took the online tests and found out HE was normal and I was the narcissist? Oh hell no. I paid a professional to retest us - same. The drunk/drug manipulator is normal and I am the ****ing narcissist. Ha! Do you know how mind bending that was? I give and give and do everything for everybody. And I am a narcissist?




I don’t think you can take a test to diagnose NPD. You need to find a specialist who is skilled in that area and it takes time- not check a few boxes & here’s the diagnosis. It’s too easy to manipulate people and Narcs are highly manipulative. When I was diagnosed with ADHD, the specialty clinic where I went gave me a questionnaire and a non-verbal test. The non-verbal test is what they gave weight to. 

FYI- if your husband is an addict, he’s definitely got narcissistic tendencies. That goes hand in hand with being codependent. Codependents become somewhat narcissistic too, but not the way you think. Codependent No More was a good read to explain it better. We get so consumed with caring for the “sick” person that we forsake most other things, including ourselves. Our willingness to make the “sick one” *our drug* is what takes narcissism. It’s a trip. 

The day I quit covering up for him was freeing. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## frustratedinphx

happy as a clam said:


> I have walked away from a pathological narcissist. I was married to him for 20 years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have to disagree here. Your children are experiencing the same dysfunction that you experienced from your parents. You can’t hide this stuff from kids no matter how much you try to limit the interaction.




It took you 20 years. Technically if I leave now, I’m ahead of you at only 16 yrs married. My hat’s off to you for doing it though. I’ll bet it wasn’t easy. 

I think my kids will see my parents for what they are. They’re pretty smart. Since we’re on opposite sides of the country, their interaction is limited to ~30 days/yr. I loved my grandparents. I know now how f*d up they were, but as a kid I didn’t see it. They were long gone before I knew the full truth. I have little respect left for my grandfather, but cherish every memory of my grandmother. I think every kid deserves that as long as they’re not being directly, immediately harmed by it. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Rubix Cubed

frustratedinphx said:


> *I think my kids will see my parents for what they are.* They’re pretty smart. Since we’re on opposite sides of the country, their interaction is limited to ~30 days/yr. I loved my grandparents. I know now how f*d up they were, but as a kid I didn’t see it. They were long gone before I knew the full truth. I have little respect left for my grandfather, but cherish every memory of my grandmother. I think every kid deserves that as long as they’re not being directly, immediately harmed by it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


 I don't think they were referring to YOUR parents directly affecting your kids, but YOU affecting your kids ( honestly, the both of you are ****ed up like a football bat) possibly as a result from your parents messing you up. The cycle continues until someone makes themselves healthy enough to be a good/grounded influence on their children. I'm reasonably sure you will reply with "But I'm a great influence on my kids", if so it's just another example of your tone deafness. You already recognized that your kids will likely recognize your parents as being broken from across the country. Do you think they aren't influenced by what happens in their own house?


----------



## frustratedinphx

Rubix Cubed said:


> I don't think they were referring to YOUR parents directly affecting your kids, but YOU affecting your kids ( honestly, the both of you are ****ed up like a football bat) possibly as a result from your parents messing you up. The cycle continues until someone makes themselves healthy enough to be a good/grounded influence on their children. I'm reasonably sure you will reply with "But I'm a great influence on my kids", if so it's just another example of your tone deafness. You already recognized that your kids will likely recognize your parents as being broken from across the country. Do you think they aren't influenced by what happens in their own house?




I misunderstood. My kids spend 3-4 weeks my parents each summer and are with them now. Even though my kids are there, my husband and I are NOT in the same house. We have 2- I’m in one, he’s in the other. Over the last 18 mos when things flared, usually I’d head to the other house for peace and quiet. For longer periods we take turns. 

Of course it affects my kids and I’ve said it here before! I’ve also made a point when we have negative interactions around them to apologize to them and make sure they understand this is NOT the way marriage is supposed to be. I started seeing patterns in their own relationships with friends and made a point to intervene. I want them to understood the harm in treating someone they “care about” poorly.

Honestly though, you really think the worst of me. Want to take another stab? I’m more intuitive than you think. I’ve had a massive reversal on everything I thought I knew over the last 40-something years and am starting to undo it all. Empathy isn’t your (or many others’ here) strongest trait. I hope someone does the same to you so you’ll understand it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Shoyoself

frustratedinphx said:


> Honestly though, you really think the worst of me. Want to take another stab? I’m more intuitive than you think. *I’ve had a massive reversal on everything I thought I knew over the last 40-something years and am starting to undo it all. *Empathy isn’t your (or many others’ here) strongest trait.


The bolded part is why I have been responding to your posts. I can absolutely empathize with the “starting to undo it all”, but the tone of your other posts is that you have already figured it all out. I can’t speak for anyone else here, but for myself personally, when I was just starting to unravel everything I was in no place to be giving advice. And again, only speaking for myself, your recent posts read as though you are in the thick of the emotions and are not in a place to help others, particularly betrayed spouses. If you had come with the “starting to undo it all” humility and perspective, you would have had a much different reception, at least from me.


----------



## lucy999

frustratedinphx said:


> Of course it affects my kids and I’ve said it here before! I’ve also made a point when we have negative interactions around them to apologize to them and make sure they understand this is NOT the way marriage is supposed to be. I started seeing patterns in their own relationships with friends and made a point to intervene. I want them to understood the harm in treating someone they “care about” poorly.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That doesn't work, though. That's like a jury hearing incredibly damning evidence as to the defendant's guilt, only to be told by the judge it's not allowed and must be disregarded in determining the defendant's guilt or innocence. You can't unring that bell.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

frustratedinphx said:


> Honestly though, you really think the worst of me. Want to take another stab? I hope someone does the same to you so you’ll understand it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


 I pointed out your tone-deafness, that is all. If you think that's a stab then that just reinforces what I stated even more. Maybe you need a thicker skin especially since you think so highly of your "non-spineless" self. You seem to think you are completely innocent and should have everyone's sympathy as a victim. 
If you think I, or anyone here for that matter, haven't had their faults pointed out to them before, then you are terribly mistaken. That's about the only way you can gain some introspection. I'll bow out of your thread now as it's obvious you want a cheering section not actual input from different viewpoints.


----------



## personofinterest

> For a long time I have contemplated starting a thread about being cheating on when you are a narcissist. Everyone throws that term around about the cheater, but what happens when the narcissist is cheated on? It isn’t good. Ask me how I know.


I am sure if a narcissist is cheated on, they go ballistic in ways I cannot imagine. It makes one shudder to contemplate it.

But here's the thing. I really CAN'T control the actions and attitudes of other people. I CAN make choices about my own. I am not bound to be horrible just because someone was horrible to me.

That is why the question: Am I horrible or did I do something horrible in the midst of horrible circumstances is, in the final analysis, irrelevant. Because the underlying message there is:

It is not my fault I did X. If someone else hadn't done W, I would not have done X.

And the first step to NOT being a horrible person is NOT blaming others for one's actions. Even when that person's actions are horrible.

I think the OP's husband is....ridiculously issue-ridden, selfish, and arrogant. BUT he is not here. And he is not likely to change.

So the question is, does the OP want to remain enslaved to the actions and reactions of the people around her (her husband, her parents, etc.) or does she want to be in charge of her own choices? It's not a formality to ask that question. There's lots of secondary gain that comes from staying enslaved to what other people do because it provides the illusion of absolution.


----------



## frustratedinphx

personofinterest said:


> I am sure if a narcissist is cheated on, they go ballistic in ways I cannot imagine. It makes one shudder to contemplate it.



No you can’t. Here are my most 2 probable realities that you can’t imagine unless you’ve experienced it.
https://youtu.be/TJv5JZnWkIU
Or
https://youtu.be/3Dt9xJGPQBk

This abuse has been my reality for the better part of my life, starting with my mother: https://www.betterhelp.com/advice/a...t-emotional-abuse-can-make-you-think-you-are/ There’s no shame in enduring it, but it’s a shame not to stop it.

I’m 5 YEARS out of the infidelities & my 1st post. I’m not the woman today who wrote then. Sadly, this site’s culture is the same. Yesterday, I watched someone else get bullied into signing off TAM for a 2nd time (as I did years before). 

My husband is READING THIS THREAD and THROWING YOUR REPLIES IN MY FACE again! He‘s sitting back & letting YOU do his dirty work with all of the satisfaction & none of the guilt. He’s too much of a coward to speak up or make meaningful change. Who’s going to lead the witch hunt for his: lying by omission (his affair), trickle-truth, abuse, blah, blah... ? Seriously.

I’m FAR from perfect. What I know today protects my sanity from what I experienced then or could tomorrow, thank God! If you came to learn & grow, I applaud you. If you came to wallow in pity & dish it back to others to feel better, YOU are part of the problem: https://us.ditchthelabel.org/why-do-people-bully/
Other member*S* came to my defense in private 5yrs and today. Wish they did in public bc this sh*t isn’t changing and needs to.

Final note: many accuse me of not making change, but refuse to acknowledge I have AND STILL DO. Your pain & healing journey are not mine & won’t look the same. My process only needs to be *good enough* for me & the people in my life. Look up “positive reinforcement”. Most of you are doing the opposite. You CAN’T beat my issues out of me. 

“Dry drunks” are sober people *stuck* with their old attitudes & behaviors that got them there in the 1st place. Co-dependents are relationship-damaged people stuck with their old attitudes & behaviors that got them there in the 1st place. Codependency exists after you leave a bad relationship situation or the relationship itself, unless you change your attitudes & behaviors. Get to recovery however you can, but please get there! I’m well on my way out, but worry about several of you. 

Please get help. Even partial change, is empowering & will *change your life* for the better.
https://goodmenproject.com/featured...the-cycle-of-verbal-and-emotional-abuse-fiff/


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## threelittlestars

Hey, I do think people have been very short sighted in their perspective of your VERY LONG and complicated story. 

If your husband is reading I say this to you. (YOU HAVE A LOT OF INTROSPECTION TO DO SIR) and the longer you deny it and point the finger nothing will change. You are no longer a victim, it is long past that. You have victimized your wife JUST as much as she has to you. (TIT FOR TAT does not really work in the real world) GROW THE HELL UP DUDE. 

Neither of you come out in this rosy and perfect. 

To OP. you know I support you. Not because I side with you. Not because I think you are the perfect one in this, but because Infidelity echoes across the years for us all in different ways. It is crazy making. And I can identify with a lot of what you have gone through. Though I am a Betrayed spouse i still see what you are going through and hope you can get through this. 

I think you HAVE owned your own situation. But it is difficult to maintain that when he has burned you as he has. (YES HUSBAND, YOU SUCK TOO) When have you owned the fact that you cheated and threw her under the bus? When the hell were YOU CONTRITE? 

Husband, you have a double standard. I think you are messed up in the head and the denial is going to ruin your life. 

op. If he is acting this way now, it probably will never end for you. Maybe it is time to call it. You cant reconcile with him and he does not want to reconcile with you. The actions say that.


----------



## BarbedFenceRider

At some point, when both parties are injured...Throwing more grenades at each other is a futile action. When does the couple stop the negative cycle and either they WANT to be happy with or without each other...Or not.

Living in 2 separate houses away from each other is building your own castles and moats. You each build up your walls and defensively lookout for the next onslaught. If you want to R. Then you have to do it WITH each other. Your lives are not over. But you have come to an impasse where each side is NOT giving up territory for fear of being more hurt and betrayed. Someone has to say "enough". What in the hell brought you people together in the first place? 

Since the husband is the one reading these posts, he should be the first to stop the cycle....(If your MAN enough..)
1. Take a piece of paper and write 7 positive things about your spouse.
2. Each day, you are to tell your spouse 1 of those things 7 times. Keep count. If you throw a negative in during the day...Remove a positive. You are trying to go for a clean 7 GOOD things to say to your spouse.
3. Take another piece of paper and list some of the BEST times with your spouse over the years. Be truthful and don't start with the revisionist BS. It's not admitting weakness, its showing you want to be happy. At the end of the week, recite your list and compare notes...You might be surprised.

Even if you don't stay in the marriage, you STOP the negative cycle and look to raising your children with dignity and honesty. That would be a start. And for all that is good, if either of you have baggage and other people involved in your life. CUT IT OUT. You will still be in a negative cycle and angry. Guaranteed.


----------



## thummper

I heartily agree with fencerider's post. If the husband is reading this, then come to TAM, tell your side of the story and TRY to justify the way you've treated your wife all these years. Bullies make me sick.


----------



## threelittlestars

Here here. Husband should if he is using (tams) word against her. That is really really really messed up (in this situation). 

If he is reading, consider this an invitation to tell YOUR side of the story. (Do it in a different thread so we can keep up and make sense of things, please.)


----------



## TeddieG

personofinterest said:


> I am sure if a narcissist is cheated on, they go ballistic in ways I cannot imagine. It makes one shudder to contemplate it.


This is SO true. My ex contacted me recently because he was filing from divorce from the OW. She cheated on him. He was out to destroy her. It was so bad that I asked him what was wrong with him, why did he enjoy scorching her earth? They of course got back together, but they have only been married legally a year and a half; he married her while in the midst of a divorce from me and their marriage wasn't legal so a year and a half later they married again. My divorce attorney told me that OW was such a nut and ex was so emotionally out of control that she'd be surprised if their marriage lasted 3 years. She nailed it, but ex went back to the ***** for the narcissistic supply, and because he had to confront one of the great fears of a narcissist, being alone. I always thought he'd cheat his way out of that marriage because he can't stand to be alone, and that's precisely what drew him back to her. I still think he'll have another ***** lined up before he leaves this one, but my h hid the narcissism for years. A medical event where he was injured by a doctor turned him into a monster. But if I were a lesser person I would have enjoyed the way he was destroying her; in the end, though, I couldn't take it because even at his worst during the infidelity and divorce, I'd never seen him act with so much hatred and vitriol.


----------



## personofinterest

TeddieG said:


> This is SO true. My ex contacted me recently because he was filing from divorce from the OW. She cheated on him. He was out to destroy her. It was so bad that I asked him what was wrong with him, why did he enjoy scorching her earth? They of course got back together, but they have only been married legally a year and a half; he married her while in the midst of a divorce from me and their marriage wasn't legal so a year and a half later they married again. My divorce attorney told me that OW was such a nut and ex was so emotionally out of control that she'd be surprised if their marriage lasted 3 years. She nailed it, but ex went back to the ***** for the narcissistic supply, and because he had to confront one of the great fears of a narcissist, being alone. I always thought he'd cheat his way out of that marriage because he can't stand to be alone, and that's precisely what drew him back to her. I still think he'll have another ***** lined up before he leaves this one, but my h hid the narcissism for years. A medical event where he was injured by a doctor turned him into a monster. But if I were a lesser person I would have enjoyed the way he was destroying her; in the end, though, I couldn't take it because even at his worst during the infidelity and divorce, I'd never seen him act with so much hatred and vitriol.


It's interesting how when the cheater gets betrayed they are suddenly just IRATE that someone dared betray them. Um....ya do realize you did the same thing to ME, right?????


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Sounds like they are a match made in heaven. No wonder all these millennials are so screwed up. Gen Typods should be a doozy.


----------



## TeddieG

personofinterest said:


> It's interesting how when the cheater gets betrayed they are suddenly just IRATE that someone dared betray them. Um....ya do realize you did the same thing to ME, right?????


Exactly. I have never seen him so furious and so bent on destruction. So when I asked him WHY he was being SO hateful and mean, he said really wanted to hurt her. He said, when I was cheating on you, I never set out to hurt you, I was being selfish (he told me many times in that conversation all the things he did because he was selfish - ran up his credit cards, etc.), and I really never meant to hurt you.

Right?????


----------

