# Maybe I'm Asking Too Much



## expectoomuch (Oct 11, 2017)

Hello, 

This is my first post. Thank you in advance to any and all who can offer their perspective/insight/experience. 

Backstory: My wife and I have been together for 25 years, since I was 21 (she is three years older than me). For about the first 10-12 years, our relationship was AMAZING. Deep feelings of being in love, and a shared sense of purpose. In hindsight, I recognize our sex life as being marginal during this period, but I truly didn't care (I think this was due to being an elite-level aerobic athlete, and fatigue due to training, etc). And my wife never really seemed to care all that much; my sense was that sex was something she could take or leave. It wasn't a sexless relationship, by any means, just not a particularly sexual one. 

After having children, my wife developed a physical condition that made PIV painful, and our sex life withered. Of course, having babies didn't help. At this point, I was not exercising nearly so much, and my sex drive returned in force. Not great timing. I did a really poor job of communicating my needs, and also of being supportive of her condition. That said, I know for a fact (because she's told me) that she sometimes used her condition as an excuse for not having sex. When we did have sex, it was marginally satisfying to me; she never wanted to experiment with different positions, she would not perform oral on me (nor would she perform oral on me when her condition made PIV impossible). It wasn't starfish sex, but it sure as hell wasn't inspired. 

During this period, I became more and more resentful, and began to plot separation/divorce. I did this in silence for nearly a decade, and I deeply regret not speaking up. For all sorts of reasons that have been uncovered by therapy (father was a drunk, mother had major depression, blah, blah, blah), I just couldn't face how upset she'd be if I told her what I was thinking. And truth is, there were still many good aspects to our relationship. I just kept trying to convince myself that sex didn't matter to me, or shouldn't matter. I used porn frequently (3x-week or so) to relieve myself. We continued to have marginal sex once or twice per month, though there were also stretches of multiple months when we had no sex at all. 

Last year, I finally mustered the courage to tell her the secrets I'd be harboring all this time, and we entered MC with an amazing therapist that we both love. Our sex life is better, in part because she no longer suffers from the physical condition I mentioned, and in part because she's been willing to be more vulnerable and attentive to my needs. This is wonderful and I appreciate it deeply. However, there is still a chasm between my needs and hers, and I know that if I never wanted to have sex again, she'd be fine with that. I know that when we're apart for any length of time, she doesn't masturbate, or think about sex at all. Frankly, it is difficult for me to remain excited about sex with someone who isn't all that excited about it themselves. She enjoys it when it happens (and she always orgasms), and I know she does her best to muster enthusiasm in the bedroom, but outside of it, there is zero sense of her being a sexual being, or of needing sex in her life. None of this is due to depression, btw: She's relentlessly upbeat and has tons of hobbies and passions. Sex just isn't one of them. 

We now have sex about 2x/week on average, and it's... ok. She is much more willing to experiment with different positions, and oral is on the menu. I use porn only occasionally (she knows this and doesn't mind), such as when we're apart, or experiencing a dry spell due to normal life complications (sickness, particularly busy with work/kids/etc). I know I'm not a perfect lover, and I ask her all the time how I can be better, what turns her on, etc, and her answer is always "what you're doing is fine." I am dying for her to tell me what really gets her going, but I'm also beginning to believe that nothing really gets her going, that sex is something she can enjoy well enough if it happens, but it's never going to be a priority or need for her the way it is for me. 

I don't know what I'm asking, really. I know I have it way better than many on this site, and I'm grateful to my wife for being as generous as she is, for being willing to expand her boundaries. But I'm also frankly a bit resentful, maybe partly a hangover from all the years when our sex life was truly miserable and we became so disconnected (there were other reasons, too, but lack of sex was high on the list), and partly because I desperately want to be with someone who wants/needs sex as much as I do. I guess what I'm saying is that I desperately want to be wanted, if that makes any sense. 

FWIW, I am in very good shape and I know that women find me attractive (she is also in excellent shape, with the toned body of a woman half her age). We share household duties and parenting very well. I give her plenty of affection, both physical and otherwise, with no expectation of sex. I tell her how much I love her, how beautiful she is, and how attracted I am to her frequently, though beyond the expressions of love, I really don't think she cares. She just doesn't seem to be someone who views herself in sexual terms, or even cares to. 

Any thoughts or advice? Even if it's just to tell me to get over myself and be happy with what I've got. Because I know it could be a lot worse... In fact, I spent nearly 15 years with it being a lot worse! 

Thank you.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Let's see ....

2x/week when it used to be a lot less

She enjoys it when you do it/always has the big O

She's now open to different positions and other forms of experimentation

Oral is now on the menu


Sounds to me like things are getting better by each and every metric. Maybe you are harboring resentment over the dark days of the past. But where are you now? What is the current trend? Does that have any meaning for you? Does it have more meaning than the past? If not, why?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

What is there to say?

You were patient a long time, until you weren't.

She has come around. She likely is sexual only because she knows she needs to.

Nevertheless she is doing what it takes. What more can one ask.

Count your' blessings. 

If she were always high desire, HD, you might be posting here that she cheated. She is not. That too is a plus.


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## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

It sounds like your wife loves you enough to try for your sake, she just doesn't seem to like sex much at this point in her life, or maybe it's sex with you. A 25 year relationship can move people from lovers to friends who respect each other, but the spark for one or the other is gone so they shut down their sexuality. Not masturbating, or telling you fantasies or what she likes is kind of a clue that she's shut down her sex drive for the majority of your marriage for one reason or another. 

Anything she would be really resentful about? Maybe the porn has affected more than you think?

But make no mistake, if you guys divorced the next guy would be getting a whole different sexual experience and energy from her than you're getting. If she's healthy, her libido will go into overdrive with someone new.

Lot's of times "she can take or leave sex" is really "she can take or leave sex with you".


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Another round of counseling is in order, this time for you solo. Find a way to let go of the resentment of the years of lackluster sex and feeling like your needs were unmet, and decide whether or not you can come to terms with being married to someone who has a much lower sex drive than you.

You are a classic mismatch sexually -- you're high drive and she's low drive. Neither of you can change the way you're wired. The best you can hope for is to meet somewhere in the middle, and it sounds like you already have.

Can you live with that? Counseling will help you figure out that answer.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

I don't know, you are now engaging in sex twice a week. Your W is open to new things. Consider this as your voice heard and your W is responding. She could very well say to keep using the porn. 

However.........do you believe the porn is skewing your thoughts on how sex should be or how your W should act/react during sex? Are you looking for porn star sex? Is your W willing to relieve you with a handy if requested? Is your W really ok with you using porn?


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

You glossed over the MC-induced turnaround. 

Did she acknowledge and understand her own contribution to the sad state of affairs? Or did she seize on the health issue, your deficiencies in supporting her, and your silence as blanket justifications? 

Does she appreciate your need for an engaged and enthusiastic partner who prioritizes sex and initiates it sometimes, or does she think an uptick in your "service level agreement" should suffice? 

Are you possibly sabotaging your own attractiveness thru neediness and supplication?

Does she have hormonal libido issues that could be addressed medically?

Does she have corresponding resentments about your behavior?

Mutual understanding of your evolving dynamic will help a lot more than some external pronouncement of what kind of sex you "should" be satisfied with. Do you plan any follow-ups with the MC?


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## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

Phil Anders said:


> Are you possibly sabotaging your own attractiveness thru neediness and supplication?


I was thinking this could be a possibility, if he spent a decade begging and pouting about not getting any and then sulked and used porn exclusively, it can sink a woman's desire.

I don't really like recommending Married Man's Sex Life Primer, but it does have a lot of good information in there on how to turn things around as long as you ignore the pick up artist and truly misogynistic BS in the book.

Could be resentment she's dealing with too.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

happy as a clam said:


> Another round of counseling is in order, this time for you solo. Find a way to let go of the resentment of the years of lackluster sex and feeling like your needs were unmet, and decide whether or not you can come to terms with being married to someone who has a much lower sex drive than you.


Great suggestion.



happy as a clam said:


> You are a classic mismatch sexually -- you're high drive and she's low drive.


Rewritten: You are a classic sexual mismatch - you are high drive for her and she is low drive for you. Bitter pill to swallow. Go to IC to decide if you can accept the reality that you are hotter for her than she is for you. Or does that reality eat away at your self-confidence and self-respect to the point that you need to divorce her to be free of the negative influence. No one can answer that except you.


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## expectoomuch (Oct 11, 2017)

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. We are still in MC, exploring all sorts of issues that went unexplored for far too long. I do think there is a classic mismatch, though maybe that's just to deflect the possibility that she simply isn't attracted to me, or that my behavior is in some ways making me less attractive. She has acknowledged her contribution to the situation, and really is putting in a lot of effort to change things. I'm grateful for this. 

Upon reflection, I don't think it's that I'm still resentful for all those years, but rather that when she turns me down now, or when I feel as if she's merely offering sex because she knows I want it but doesn't much care herself, I feel that old sense of resentment. To clarify, she wants sex in the sense that she wants to give me pleasure, and to ensure a healthy-ish relationship, but I know she doesn't really want it for herself. And I guess that's the rub for me.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Her sex-killing condition magically healed after the MC intervention. Did I read that right?


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## expectoomuch (Oct 11, 2017)

No, I would say it was more about me finally being honest about how close I was to asking for divorce. She started putting in more effort immediately. MC followed.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

expectoomuch said:


> No, I would say it was more about me finally being honest about how close I was to asking for divorce. She started putting in more effort immediately. MC followed.


So was the medical condition real, or an excuse? What was it? How was it resolved?


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Sex isn't the problem. It NEVER is the problem and this is where our simple minds fail to see that. Being DESIRED is the issue. You are not being desired and it sucks. It ****ing sucks. Sure, she opens her legs for you. Great, it feels good fora bit, but banging a dead fish or someone who is kinda into it but would rather be watching reruns of Dexter isn't cutting it for you, and it shouldn't.

But that is the problem with half measures (maybe she watches Breaking Bad too). You went to a therapist and now instead of divorce, she has duty sex. But that isn't what you wanted. You wanted her to want to rip your clothes off and break a bed or two. But now, when you complain, she has, well, I've changed a bit, I am doing it. I am REALLY into it (fake). Be careful of what you wish for.

Honestly, I think you'd best separate. Tell her, you need time to yourself. Time to figure out what you want and if you want to find someone who actually desires you, who wants to be intimate with you. It may lead to divorce, but it also may stir something up in her.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Livvie said:


> So was the medical condition real, or an excuse? What was it? How was it resolved?


Wondering that myself. Not that many common ailments that persist for years that prevent sex that I'm aware of.

More likely OP changed the status quo. Do you hold most of the power in the relationship financially speaking toomuch? Easy for even the hint of divorce and need for counseling to scare your wife into action?

Many have said it in this thread a thousands of times on TAM. Does she not want sex in general or does she not want sex with YOU? Its a potentially crushing question and answer. I myself struggle with it at times. But its a fair one to ask in situations like these. Too easy to just assume "ahh, shes a woman. Women dont like sex much anyway." "Thats why she doesnt seem to want to have sex with ME ever."


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## RandomDude2 (Sep 12, 2017)

I find myself in kind of a similar situation. My wife has a lot of barriers around sex and our sex life has been accommodating or duty sex. She is never really into it with the desire and passion that I want. So one day i just told her that I don't find the kind of sex we are having as desirable, it is not meeting my needs emotionally. I told her that I need to feel desired sexually by her and to have her want to love me with her whole self including her body. I didn't go on strike, per say, but I did decide that I flat out didn't want to settle for accommodating or duty sex - it was not interesting to me or appealing. 

We found a really good sex therapist that also has some online courses. We started the courses and then decided to start counseling together. My wife has now learned to honestly "self-confront" herself on her views on sex. She acknowledges that she has barriers in place that are (and have always) prevented her from giving her full self to me in our marriage (married for 21 years). She now sees the value in both our relationship and in her own self in developing her own relationship to sexuality. She is actively working on becoming more sexual for herself. Keep in mind that she only does 2 positions and oral is not even on the menu, so this is a huge step in the right direction for her. We (she) has a long road ahead of her to get to where she wants to be, but we are a lot more open about it and working together. 

My advise would be for you to screen and find a good sex therapist and tell your wife that you want to go together. If you can get her to discover the need to develop her sexual side for herself it would go a long way. You could sell her on the idea by talking about how you want to feel more connected through your intimacy. Ultimately, for me at least, I wanted to feel desired by my wife sexually. I would take red hot sexual desire in two positions (even without oral) than accommodating or duty sex in any position.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I don't think asking for a warm, loving, affectionate and healthy marital live and sex life is asking too much at all.

In fact enduring a miserable one for 15 years was probably the pathology but that is water under the bridge and another topic.

However asking an almost 40 year old mother that's been 20+ years who was always LD to begin with to start wailing and thrashing and gobbling down semen like a porn star all the time is asking too much. 

MC may prevent or postpone divorces in certain cases, but it is not Porno Camp that trains housewives to become porn stars. 

I think it's important to look at trends that point where things are going more than where one is right this moment. 

I agree with an earlier poster that that she is showing improvement by all measures. 

Now if some only has a penny to their name and they pick up another penny, they have doubled their net worth but yet are only worth 2 cents. 

I think there is good reason to wait and see if things continue the trend of improvement. 

The trend could be real. The kids may be old enough now that she isn't feeling the same pressure to be a Super Mom. It's not unusual for women to experience a spike in libido from mid-30s to early 40s. Your lifestyles in general more be more stable and secure and that can have a positive effect in the bedroom. So this trend might me real.

But there is also the possibility she is just sucking it up (no pun intended. Honestly). And putting out more to avoid divorce court. 

There's no way for us to know either way and she may not have a clear answer herself.

I do agree with those that suggest maybe you should seek IC on your own to help peel back the layers of your discontent and help you organize your feelings and help you come up with a plan of action whether it is to stay and keep trying or throw in the towel and move on.


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## expectoomuch (Oct 11, 2017)

Thanks again for all the thoughtful replies. 

Her condition was definitely real; it's called lichen planus; in her case, it caused thinning skin on her vagina, which was incredibly painful. There were times it would go into remission, then reappear. It now seems to be gone for good (knock on wood). That said, she has admitted that she sometimes used it as an excuse. Our children were young, one was particularly challenging and draining, and she was just plain tired, which of course I understand. 

I'm not sure I'd classify our sex as "duty sex"; I think she likes it enough once we get started (at least, she claims to). It's just that there's no sense of her ever really needing it, or even being hungry for it. And I think that's because she doesn't experience that sort of desire. Or maybe she doesn't experience that sort of desire for me. But I think in general it's just not a priority for her. We were recently apart for three weeks (she took our sons on a road trip while I did some home renovations) and she told me she didn't masturbate once. And I'm pretty sure she's NEVER masturbated (though come to think of it, I don't actually know, and I'm now curious to ask her). I can't image not feeling the urge over that time span. This is not a criticism of her, just an example of our differing needs in this department. 

Clearly, 15 years of poor sex and me feeling dissatisfied and not having the balls to be candid with her have done damage. I take responsibility for much of that. I should have spoken up long, long, long ago. I'm working on being more honest now, initiating the hard conversations. But I also see that she's trying and I love her, and I don't want to be too demanding. There are plenty of things about being married to me that aren't ideal for her, and she's willing to make compromises. I just have to decide which compromises I'm able to live with. I realize no one can tell me what those are, but I do appreciate the feedback and sharing you all offer.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

expectoomuch said:


> I should have spoken up long, long, long ago.


This is one thing I learned as well, and it's the most important advice I give to men who are in a marriage with an unfulfilling sex life. But it's hard to do this because of the paradox involved. Part of good sex is your wife's natural desire for you, or at least what you'd like to see from her. You want her to be filled with passion--unable to keep her hands off you. The moment you tell her that this element is lacking, maybe she'll start going through the motions. Then you're basically in the same situation you were before: Duty sex, but now with an actress. So I think a lot of men have a tendency to just sit around for years, in silent frustration, waiting for this passion to begin naturally. In 99% of cases, it won't.


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

I'm on a similar boat. Wife is close to 50 age and her desire for intimacy is low. Ok, perhaps zero. But mine is close to 100 for her. She agrees to sex weekly and oral is not on the table. So you get more than me on your bedroom list. But I cannot force it more or her (and then my) world will spin out of control. I don't think putting pressure will lead to more desire. Someone here said that I am lacking in imagination. She has a point. I don't have an advanced degree in sexology. That I have not earned but was expecting to have. I'm sure our spouses have issues to work on, but so do we. We've been in loving relationship for 23yrs and we want it to last. I think it will.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

You're getting *"Ok, the therapist made me feel bad for not giving you sex...so let's do this"* sex. You want *"Oh my god, if I don't have you inside of me right now I'm going to scream"* sex. 

You gotta figure out how to push those buttons in your wife. They don't push themselves. 

Don't think those buttons exist in your wife anymore? Do you want me to put you in touch with the man who thought he had the most asexual cold lifeless zombie of a wife only to find out that the she was part of regular secret threesome sex with people from her gym, or the guy that found out his super boring "_No, I don't want to do that. I'm not like that"_ wife routinely reads ultra-violent erotica, or the one that found a video of his _boring church wife who refuses to do oral _in the middle of a gang-bang right before they got married?

Guys throw around "my wife just doesn't like sex anymore" a lot... and it often just boils down to no... you just aren't pushing her buttons.

The annoying truth is that talking rarely reveals exactly what the secret button pushing combination is. If she has to tell you, then that's more of a giant turnoff. She wants somebody who just GETS it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

dadstartingover said:


> You're getting *"Ok, the therapist made me feel bad for not giving you sex...so let's do this"* sex. You want *"Oh my god, if I don't have you inside of me right now I'm going to scream"* sex.
> 
> You gotta figure out how to push those buttons in your wife. They don't push themselves.
> 
> ...


This ^^^^^^^^^


And do you think the threesome dudes at the gym or guys in the gang bang video or the guys in the ultra-violent erotica are staying up nights trying to crack some mysterious code of women's sexual arousal and asking these women what buttons they need to push and where their left hand should go while their tongue is going somewhere else?? 

No. They are doing what THEY want. 

They are doing what they want and what feels intuitive to them and what turns them on. The women in these scenarios are responding with responsive desire. 

The men in these scenarios flirted with them, bantered with them, made them offers and seductions with them and happened to hit some buttons that worked and the women went for it. The women were in the market for what the guys were peddling at that time. They clicked. 

Some times it's like fishing and you have to dangle your bait in front of many fish' nose before one takes it. 

If you are trying to catch one fish over and over for 20, 30, 40 years, it does get challenging. what worked before, may not work another time. you have to keep going back to the tackle box. 

And some times it comes down to if that one fish wants nothing that you have in your tackle box and does not respond to any of the things you like to do or like any of your tackle and you don't not want to get a whole new set of tackle anymore, it may be more effective to fish in another pond and be open to catching a different kind of fish.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> This ^^^^^^^^^
> 
> 
> And do you think the threesome dudes at the gym or guys in the gang bang video or the guys in the ultra-violent erotica are staying up nights trying to crack some mysterious code of women's sexual arousal and asking these women what buttons they need to push and where their left hand should go while their tongue is going somewhere else??
> ...


A woman involved in a gang bang or repeatedly in threesomes would not be characterized as having responsive desire. The women in those scenarios are active participants _purposefully fulfilling_ a sexual fantasy. They are the ring leaders, not passive wallflowers waiting on something to happen to get them in the mood. 

And the woman reading violent erotica may enjoy the imagined fantasy those stories create in her head but finds them a turn off in reality. Don't base a woman's sexual kink on what she reads. It could end up biting you in the ass.



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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Lila said:


> A woman involved in a gang bang or repeatedly in threesomes would not be characterized as having responsive desire. The women in those scenarios are active participants _purposefully fulfilling_ a sexual fantasy. They are the ring leaders, not passive wallflowers waiting on something to happen to get them in the mood.


You make some good points and obviously these are very sexual women with strong and confident sexualities. 

Yes they were active participants but where the line is drawn between a ring leader and responsive desire is hard to determine. 

It is doubtful (but certainly possible) that the women in question did not walk up to a group of guys at the squat rack in the gym and ask if they'd like to gang bang her. 

Someone somewhere along the chain of events started with some flirtation and banter and an incrementally increasing degree of sexualizing the conversation until overt offers were being made and accepted. 

However one wants to define it and whoever you want to assign as the instigator, the fact remains that these women were responding to the men in the scenarios but not their husbands. 

These other men in question were dangling more enticing bait in front of them than their husbands were.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

It sounds to me as if things have improved a lot and that you have a wife who loves you and 2 healthy children. Countless men would be so happy with what you have, I would stop the porn. It always gives a very unrealistic picture of sex and women, these porn actresses are acting. Many admit they don't even like sex. 

I always think its odd that so many people think that a couple must think the same, feel the same and desire the same. Its never going to happen. Marriage is about compromise and unselfishness. Putting your spouse and children before yourself, being thankful for what you do have, and not complaining about what you think you don't.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> However one wants to define it and whoever you want to assign as the instigator, the fact remains that these women were responding to the men in the scenarios but not their husbands.
> 
> These other men in question were dangling more enticing bait in front of them than their husbands were.


I disagree but that's alright. OP is getting lots of different opinions to mull over. Hopefully he'll figure out the best path forward. 

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## expectoomuch (Oct 11, 2017)

Yes, lots to mull over. For now, my takeaway is this:

Quit the porn
Continue my quest to be more honest/assertive while also being considerate/responsive
Continue appreciating how much my wife loves me and is willing to explore her boundaries 
Don't assume that I couldn't do more 

thanks, everyone!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

expectoomuch said:


> Yes, lots to mull over. For now, my takeaway is this:
> 
> Quit the porn
> Continue my quest to be more honest/assertive while also being considerate/responsive
> ...


Sounds very positive:smile2:


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

I 2nd that,??


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