# ...eh...



## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...got off work early and spent time with the wife.

...so she started out complaining that she never gets any attention. 

...after a few hours (and sleeping kids), she starts complaining about how she hates everything about me and asks me to stay away from her.

...I hug her forcefully and tell her I love her. Then tell her that it looks like she's pushing me away again...and that I won't discuss every way in which she thinks I'm worthless. (BPD...sigh.) She tells me to let go or she'll scratch my eyes out...and calms down.

...I go to sleep and wake up wedged between her and our children. Today, she apologizes and is studying a few books on R/S issues. 

...not that fun, but seems to kind of work. These discussions seem to be mostly nasty verbal vomit - so tolerating them doesn't work. Walking away kind of works, but really triggers her - so I need to walk far enough for her to have a (screaming, thrashing, punching herself in the face) nervous breakdown without disturbing my or my children's sleep. Besides, walking around with a wife whose face is bruised all over is annoying. Hugging her calms her quite a bit without encouraging verbal abuse.

...on the bright side...about half an hour of rational complaining, followed by about 15 min of less rational stuff. Definitely faster than driving somewhere else to spend the night.

...on the dark side...that's 45 minutes of my life I won't get back. I'm also worried about co-dependency, as things work better if people manage their own emotions instead of needing other people to help calm them.

--Argyle


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Argyle, I don't know how you do it. I am filled with admiration and respect for you; to be able to keep your head, not own her issues, and keep loving. You really are an amazing person!


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...dunno though.* The whole codependency thing worries me. Long-term, it'd probably be better just to walk out and spend the night elsewhere. Melting down and suffering consequences tends to teach.

Eg...two months ago, I apologize and tell her that it is late and a conversation will need to wait until tomorrow. I go to sleep in another room with some music on. (Drowns out the crazy muttering.) I ignore the rather heavy bass thumping. ...the next morning, my wife's face is covered in bruises. She spends the next month wearing extra makeup and embarrassed to go out in public. (Partially because I assured her that, if anyone asked, I'd just explain that she was mentally ill.)

...one month ago, we argue...she punches herself in the face...stops...and tells herself that extra makeup is a problem.

...a couple of nights past...she starts to punch herself and stops. Kind of encouraging.

Now, in this case, I'm choosing to help soothe her. On one hand, this is assuming responsibility for helping someone who is nominally an adult to control their emotions. That isn't good - as pain teaches.

On the other hand, I'm not obligated to continually help her learn self-control. Sometimes, it is just easier to give her a hug and let her calm herself. I'm allowed to be selfish. Besides, this may fit into the range of normal dependency in a R/S. Or it might not. I'm not so sure, as my relative are more of the 'well, better get up, or you'll die there' school of child-rearing.

On the third hand, I wonder if the hugs might actually help her self-soothe, long-term. Some of our books on child-rearing indicate that it is best to not let the little buggers cry it out - but instead provide loving attention. So, maybe having the experience of being hugged and reassured and getting enough emotional space to not meltdown might be kind of positive. This kind of makes sense to me...given that my wife has roughly the emotional maturity of a 3 year old. Frankly, our 5 year old gives her lessons sometimes.

Overall, I'll mark the experiment as 'vaguely positive' and try it again. Part of this is a mismatch in emotional intensity. When a relative dies in front of me, I'd tend to fetch everyone else some hot tea to help them calm down. When my wife is mildly upset, she'll tend to beg to have died before seeing this day. So, when she says that I revolt her and that she'd prefer death to this marriage, I should probably read that as...'I'm feeling upset.' And, well, an appropriate response to 'I'm feeling upset' could easily involve a hug.**

A greater portion, of course, is the whole BPD thing. As far as I can tell, there's 2(3) big conflict drivers. Driver 1: A tendency to have trouble processing issues external to the R/S and pick fights. Eh, sometimes, asking if she's actually upset about something else helps. Sometimes not. I try to be extra helpful if she actually figures this out and talks about whatever she's actually upset about. No reliable procedure though. Driver 2: (a) Being desperately terrified of abandonment and (b) terrified of intimacy. By experiment, the level of intimacy required to deal with (a) will reliably trigger (b). Eh. Given that (b) triggers what feels like an 'I hate you' script...talking doesn't work. Walking away works for me, but triggers (a)...and results in screaming meltdowns...and something that looks like increasing sensitivity to abandonment. So, um, for now, just try hugs and reassurance when (b) triggers...most of the time. If she gets nasty, do the walking away thing.

...oh...and...Driver 3: shame over being autistic. She's always been odd...beyond being BPD...and I attributed that to the whole personality disorder thing. In particular, she spent quite a lot of time yelling about everything in her life being messed up because her husband had Aspergers. On the bright side, once we started attending an Aspergers group and she started bonding with the other Aspies, that bit dissipated.

There is the bigger picture though. We have children. It might be better, for their sakes, to just leave and file for sole custody. On some level, it might also be better for my wife...or not. The truth is that the natural consequences for her behavior involve being single. In my darker moments, I suspect I'm delaying divorce to avoid cleaning out the garage.

--Argyle
*...I do tend to monologue a bit here...just helps me process...oh well.
**...I do prefer women who, eg, ask for hugs when they're feeling upset instead of lecturing their husbands on how they failed to read the situation properly and give them a hug while they were cursing their husbands.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

OMG I could read your monologues anytime. You have a precise way of explaining what can be so convoluted. Excellent job!

Considering that some experts believe Bordeline PD is an extension from Reactive Attachment Disorder, I think the hugs are perfect. But what amazes me is that you can consider them as a viable response after she has unleashed on you. I think maybe your Aspergers is actually filtering enough emotion to enable you to cope with her issues. 

I am always concerned about children being raised in a home with Borderline parent. As you say, allowing a baby to cry it out isn't really recommended until a certain age. Babies cry out of need, not out of manipulation. A needy baby isn't manipulating, just needing. Children may be able to intellectualize a parent has an illness, but should they be actively taught how to detatch from her issues? How does that affect her role as a parent? If they are not actively taught to detatch, will they become co-dependent and enablers as a result? 

I don't have the answers to those questions but they are questions worth investigating, I think.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...yep..that's my suspicion also. Albeit, there's the downside. Her relatives deal with her with screaming fits and occasional beatings. And she's a lot calmer around them than around someone who deals with her calmly. And, well, it wasn't intuitive, as my first, second, and third impulses are a lot less friendly.

...oh yah..trial 2:
...one of her friends just turned up with a pretty aggressive node positive cancer. Overall, the prognosis isn't too good. The friend has an interest in alternative medicine - mostly because she's terrified of chemo. 
...my recollection is that there're some dietary interventions that are mildly effective. ...ketogenic (low carb) diets are the ones that pop out of google-fu.
...I mention this to my wife.
...oookay. Turns out she's been encouraging my relatives to lower fat intake and they've been ignoring her. Turns out that mentioning the low carb diet is a big trigger, as she feels like I'm betraying her by taking their side.
...hugs are applied.
...45 minute calm down again. Lovely.
...albeit...I still need to figure out whether and how to mention dietary stuff to her friend. Low (very) carb diets do seem to be somewhat effective...and her friend has so very little good luck and so many people depending on her that even a little bit might help.

I also worry about keeping children in a household with a borderline.

On the bright side, they aren't showing any serious behavioral issues and are, if anything better adjusted than their cousins (call them the control group). Primary worries are a tendency to game timeouts - probably my fault - as I tend to count 1, 2, 2.5, I'm really warning you, 3...okay time for a timeout instead of 1, 2, 3 and persistent stomach aches. However, the stomach aches are likely related to constipation - as (a) the child had a 45 min poo recently and (b) went away after the diarrhea episode. (Stomach bug unfortunately coincided with daddy feeding child oatmeal, with prunes, prune juice, pear juice, and graham crackers...turns out child can poop in sleep.) Unfortunately, child noticed the pattern and is now fiber-adverse.

I occasionally give lectures on 'not being a co-dependent' and 'you aren't responsible for parents'. (Y'know, you'd like to make mommy stop yelling, but...y'know about pooping right? Trying to control other people is a lot like daddy trying to make you poo when you don't want to.) The children seem to buy into that. I also give lectures on how to leave the area and do other stuff when mommy is being mentally ill. Not so wild about those. And a few on...mommy can only process one thing at a time because she's autistic...so she gets confused catching you while reading a book. If you want her to read books, you need to lie down really quiet and just focus on the book...same deal when she's cooking. They kinda seem to pay attention.

On the dark side, there are worrisome notes. Children sometimes pray that mom will stop yelling - and see daddy as primary protection. However, aside from sometimes being overwhelmed, mom does make serious efforts to avoid involving children in issues. More often pray that they'll have good dreams...been trying to teach active dreaming...not working yet. Been having a persistent nightmare about some sort of mind-controlling alien.

Neglect is a bigger issue - as wife is not capable of consistent interactions or cleanliness. Children are hungry for more attention from mom, but she gets overwhelmed really easily - so playing with them is difficult. We're dealing with this with a combination of preschool visits, classes, visits to grandma, and too much TV and videogames. I'm planning on moving closer to relatives to reduce the latter two.

In terms of parenting, wife can be effective in limited realms, but I'm in charge of discipline, because borderlines from violent cultures should not be in charge of disciplining children. My wife often slips into inappropriate behavior, but we try to use those as models of what we shouldn't do. 'You said what? That hurt my feelings and was inappropriate and rude. Apologize now.' I dunno - stressful - but on some level - possibly useful - as it is hard to learn how to deal with inappropriate behavior without seeing it sometimes.

Up to about 2.5 years old, she was a pretty good parent. She was pretty concerned about, basically, BPD kids, and read a lot of books. We lived by basically responding to any sort of cry, no matter what and it seemed to work. Disagreement and discipline are more problematic. Her therapist has suggested - that if child notices us arguing and says something - we respond by making sure the argument is appropriate...and continuing. Leaves the child feeling less helpless.

Longer-term, for their sake, if they meet someone like mom, I'd rather they not marry them. So, it might be better if daddy modeled that sort of behavior. Dunno. OTOH, I don't take divorce lightly - and tend to fiddle a bit to optimize stuff...

On the weird side, she's insisted on a family hierarchy, ordered by sex, age, and lastly race. Dunno - I have 'traditional' relatives from the old country, so this mostly amuses me. But, having our kids think that mom ranks lower than our tomcat because she's a woman is just odd.

--Argyle


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Oh dear, I can see how conflicted you must feel. You are very good at keeping track of how many other hands you're waving!

It sounds like your kids are still pretty young, early school years, under grade 3? As they get older, they challenge, the question, they doubt, they demand, the become pretty selfish and extremely sensitive to criticism, rejection... To be completely honest, I don't think it's healthy to subject kids to a BPD parent, without a LOT of intervention from the other parent and healthy relatives.

The secondary concern would be, what would happen to them if god forbid something happened to you? It would be a situation where the usual chaos and grief would trigger her all over, meanwhile your kids are in such need.

The hierarchy thing.. Do you have daughters? Cause that's not a good thing...


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

..under grade 3. For now, I'm cautiously optimistic. If I did up a graph with 'child issues' over time, it'd peak around the time of her arrest and be decreasing slowly since she got into therapy. (Excepting some medication issues...which seem to be over for now.)

...truthfully, I just don't think it is healthy. Albeit, after her arrest, I visited a DV counselor for a while, and she's seen lots of kids with crazy parents. She thought they tended to do okay as long as the crazy behavior isn't normalized. Dunno. Eh. Y'know, the issue is that, although we've agreed on me taking sole custody...she isn't very reliable. And, the lawyer I visited was a bit dubious of pressing for anything other than joint custody unless she was breaking bones...so divorce is a bit chancy. That's the other reason I'm planning on moving closer to family.

...the third, quieter reason is that, once we move, if we do do the divorce thing...(a) the kids have a better support network / lots of familiar faces (b) I have extra backup childcare and (c) ...the residence will be kind of a fait accompli from a legal perspective.

...that's the other worry. I have considered divorce just to take her out of the equation if something comes up. Albeit, one good thing about her is that she deals pretty well with hard stuff. She does well with death and violence...just has trouble with people. Besides the crazy, all things considered, she has a lot of strength and compassion...more than average...some of her issues just make relationships hard.

No. If we did, I'd insist on promoting her over the cat. Not too wild about that message for the male children either. But, eh, she's Korean, and pretty insistent on following her parent's modeling. (Eg., women aren't allowed to work or eat at the grownup table. They're a bit odd though...actually pushed her career pretty hard and sent her to school. Some differences are cultural.) I shouldn't complain too much...my grandparents weren't much different...and my great-grandparents were much, much worse. I decided that cudgeling them wouldn't change much (not like they'd live that much longer anyways)...so...eh...why worry.

--Argyle


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

It appears you have thought through this extensively AND taken appropriate steps at this point. You also seem to be prepared for flexibility and variables that will change over time.

Again, I am impressed with how ell you are coping with all of this!


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...eh...had 3 annoying conversations this weekend.
...yay...they actually terminated with hugs.
...kind of workable, albeit time-consuming. She was pretty proactive about reducing stress on herself when she felt overwhelmed...so yay.
...although...not altogether successful...as she stayed up past 4 AM...and I ended up taking the kids to school.
...it is probably time to add a bit of stress to the mix and work a bit on more consistent scheduling. Eh.
--Argyle


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...paranoia's been pretty low for the past couple of weeks.
...some reversion to previous behavior with blaming me for children watching too much TV when I'm not home. It is a genuine issue though - I'm just not sure what to do about it excepting moving to a full-time preschool-and our child really likes the current one...
...one significant breakdown...still has poor reactions to criticism. Not so bad though...just had an unpleasant angry conversation. 
...still bathing regularly though. Definitely a relief.
...agreed on strict scheduling. I tried reminders, et cetera. Complete failure. If anything, getting up later than usual (11ish).

...time to have a chat this weekend. The issue is that children really do need to go to school on time. Potential alternatives include:
1. Me taking kids to school and working late.
2. Just setting a bunch of alarm clocks and gradually adjusting the time.
3. Automatically turning internet off after time X.

...been unusually nice recently though. Some of it is self-awareness. Some of it appears to be seeking sympathy from her relatives and getting a response along the lines of 'shut up...we know you're autistic...just read a book and deal with it.' Headphones have helped a lot.

...trying to schedule daily meetings - I need to be a bit firmer about actually having them even if she's 'too stressed'.

...thinking of bringing up a touchy subject though. Something along the lines of...
'I love you. And I'm really impressed by how far you've come. I'm not leaving, just trying to improve our marriage.'
'This is going to be a hard conversation - please try to be self-aware and not react with defenses or blinding rage.'
'I've noticed that, pretty frequently, you become worried about something...notice that I'm not taking action about that thing...come to the conclusion that I'm not reacting to an obvious emergency...explain that lack of reaction as me being insane or broken in some fashion...and panic. This hasn't been productive.'
'Before you do this, please consider that your perception of the world is warped by comparison to normal people. And that you have a highly noticeable empathy deficit. And that your behavior is atypical for most marriages.'
'So, before concluding I'm insane for not removing our child from a school where the teachers are killing the pets to send you messages or that I'm an uncaring robot for not immediately organizing an exercise program after you hurt yourself...
Please consider the possibility that you may not be perceiving reality accurately or that your empathy deficit may mean that you're not understanding the effects of your behavior on my time.'

I could just focus on the atypical behaviors (sleeping late, unable to help with children), but they aren't much of a problem. My issue is the one where I - eg - take care of the kids all night, put them to bed, and go to sleep - and she then asks me to explain what mental illness is responsible for me not spending an hour or so with her that evening.

--Argyle


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Just seeing this.

It's the weekend, so what ended up taking place? I think your plea for her to recognize her perception is different from yours and, given her dx, she might not always be exactly accurate... That could be had as an intellectual exercise that does automatically push her defensive buttons. If anyone could accomplish this, my money's on you for succeeding!

So what ended up taking place?


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...never got to it...she had a mostly spontaneous breakdown...seemed to be traceable to her drinking a beer (no more alcohol) and having a really bad period...with rain...and some career issues Alternating hostility, incoherent sobbing, and taking the car and driving elsewhere. She ended up walking home from church. (In a neighboring town...simply wasn't willing to have her share the car with children in that state.) That lasted most of the weekend. 

...sigh...the bright side is that she does become noticeably more coherent after these rages - and a reasonable amount of self-awareness in those times. So, we talked...

...useful data.
(1) She has a real habit - probably a defense of some sort - of blaming other people for problems caused by her autistic tendencies. She has a lot of 'rules' that she uses but has a lot of trouble maintaining them without reminders and is terrified of forgetting how to appear human. So, translating her blame (you're soulless...no human connection...always staring off into space) as:
'I'm autistic. And I'm scared that people will think I'm a freak if I dress in rags, stare off in random directions while talking to them, and walk around with a coat on my head. I tend to forget and stop acting human unless people call me on my oddities. Please help.' is often accurate. 

At least, she asked me to remind her about eye contact and dressing normally. She was receptive to reminders. I'd kind of gotten used to it...or maybe it just crept up on me...or maybe I figured she was just lazy. But, um, after a bit of observation, she could definitely use a lot of help fitting in. A bit annoying, but not so bad.

What I'm gathering is that discussions that make her feel helpless are pretty triggering. (terrified that she's too different to survive) But that she is very, very receptive and grateful for any sort of reminder related to appearing normal.

(2) She has a core trauma related to her mother's neglect and mistreatment. (Not really a terrible woman - seems to be an Aspie-Aspie couple - but - um - pretty much unable to handle raising 3 young children alone.) So, yah, pretty much complete meltdown, slamming head against wall when ignored. Remind her to bug therapist about this.

(3) Firmness/hostility helps her regulate.

Dunno about these. Current practice is:
1. Sorry, I'm busy...reschedule talk to time X.
2. No, really. If you insist on talking...leaving.
2a. Monologues while I ignore her.
3. Bye.
Which is ok, but she ends up with a headache.

I may try...
1. Sorry, busy...reschedule talk to time X.
2. No really...
3. WHAT ARE YOU DOING? THINK ABOUT THIS. I HAVE TO DO XYZ IN THE NEXT... GET OUT OF MY FACE.
4. ARE YOU LISTENING? SIT IN THE CORNER WITH YOUR DUNCE CAP UNTIL YOU CALM DOWN.
5. I'M OUT OF HERE.

The hostility should help her regulate a bit. Also, I've basically decided that, if she really can't regulate, I just need to leave. Staying and not speaking to her is much, much more triggering than just yelling at her and leaving the house.

For now, the reminder change is probably the big one, so I'll give that one a week or two. Mix in the firmer reminders...and that's enough changes to work on. I'm not too wild about either, because she's relying on me...dependency bad. OTOH, I should probably accept that there's just some things she really needs help with.

--Argyle


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Is there ever a calm time in which you two can come up with non verbal time out signals? 

1. Time out because I have something else I have to do and I can't give you attention right now so we'll come back to this.
2. Time out because one of us needs time to reflect and get it together.
3. Time out because we have been through this already and I'm not re opening this.

Would something like that help?


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

There's plenty of quiet times...
Um. Nonverbal timeout signals.

I'll ask her if she thinks they're workable. We've tried verbal signals and nonverbal stop signals in the past...didn't seem particularly helpful. There's an advantage in short-circuiting normal conversational patterns. Like, f'r instance, texting helps. I've been thinking that slowing down would help a bit too.

There's a mixture of her carrying a lot of pain, having a lot of trouble processing emotions, black and white thinking, a well-founded terror of being different/lonely, and really strong abandonment issues, coupled with a history of abuse.

So, she tends to suffer a lot, not really recognize her own pain, and deal with it by projecting her difference onto people close to her...believe those differences are absolute...panic over those differences..and pick fights to relieve her emotions. Then, if people withdraw from abusive behavior, she melts down completely.

The trick is that some part of her is looking for an excuse to rage instead of confronting the actual source of her misery - not consciously - but - it is there. Direct confrontation seems to help her regulate. (insulted her younger brother...he hit her...calmed down...attacked her father...beat her to the floor...calmed down...insulted her older brother...yelled at her and walked out...calmed down and apologized) 

--Argyle


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Yikes! I hope those last examples of direct confrontation were from far in the past? So maybe something that engages all her senses to bypass the emotional turmoil? Rubber band snapping on wrist, loud whistle, clapping....

Sheeshe, that is a LOT to deal with. My heart goes out to both you and your wife.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...not really. Y'know, the whole stereotype of Aspies as quiet techie guys is not really that accurate. Her family is probably fairly typical of an Aspie-Aspie couple from a high conflict culture. Y'know, stressed out by the rigors of daily living, significant verbal communication issues, limited emotional intelligence, and black and white thinking make for eventful marriages. Add in the rather casual Korean approach to domestic violence and you get something pretty aggravating.* Of the three, I'm somewhat comfortable with her older brother's approach. I'd be more aggravated/concerned with the other two...but...honestly...they weren't the instigators...and at worst overdid self-defense.

Her therapist recommends going off into a corner and singing a happy song while clapping. Admittedly, that therapist learned that technique after assaulting a meter maid. I'll try talking it over with her.

Um. OTOH, trial 1 of escalation.
W. Unintelligible murmur.
H. Did you say something?
W. Quieter unintelligible murmur.
H. Huh? Speak up.
W. Yet quieter.
H. (Walks off...figuring she needs to sleep.)
W. I NEEDED TOILET PAPER TO PLUG MY EARS! REFLECT WHAT I'M SAYING.
H. Make eye contact. WTF! I COULDN'T UNDERSTAND A WORD YOU WERE SAYING AND THOUGHT YOU NEEDED TO SLEEP. YOU WANT A LONG CONVERSATION WHILE YOU'RE TRYING TO REST!! CRAZY?
W: ADMIT IT. YOU HAVE COMMUNICATION PROBLEMS.
H: ARE YOU CHALLENGING ME?
W: No. Sorry.
H: Sleep well.
W: Have a good day at work. Love you.

Dunno. Kind of works. I prefer the whole being really careful and polite thing to avoid hurting people's feelings...but there's lots of ways of relating to your loved ones...and I should probably accept that being gentle and accepting tends to come across as distancing for her.

--Argyle

*There is a rather strong expectation that a husband will control his wife, manage the family, and beat her to enforce obedience. Her family has lectured me on the proper ways to beat a woman. Gak. Oddly, Korea, like the US, is one of the countries that skews towards women initiating violence.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

argyle said:


> Oddly, Korea, like the US, is one of the countries that skews towards women initiating violence.


I have no experience with BP people or autistics (although my wife is Korean also). But all the other craziness aside, I couldn't possibly continue to live with someone that beats herself in the face!! Sooner or later the husband is the one who will be blamed for that. And jailed.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I wonder if maybe some of her escalations are more about getting you to follow the program she was raised with? Is there some way you can safely indulge this and make it work for both of you?


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

@T I have that worry also. And...a fair amount of film recording her behavior. And...since her arrest...she is terrified of the police. And a modest amount of communication with the local police department. And a couple of therapists and neighbors with information and documentation of her issues. So, not safe, but some backup.

@A Y'know, she isn't manipulative. She'll plead and beg me to follow her programming but she's as tricky as a hammer.

And, she kind of understands what works for her. It is just pretty alien/unacceptable to me. Heck. I can yell back at her and she'll calm rapidly, 90% of the time.

And, heck, her father can beat her the other 10% when she starts thrashing about. And she'll calm instantly. I'm not up for that though.

Truth is...if I have time and am awake on my feet, I can deal with 95% of her issues without much trouble. The problem is that she's pretty useless with daily life and I have a bit of a commute, so I'm tired most of the time.

Basically, the way I visualize a normal relationship working involves both people have mental space and habits that allow them to calm down or walk away when their partner is being a prat. Oh, and a limited number of triggers. Now, that's probably a bit optimistic for many on these boards...but...ideally... And the sort of mental space that makes it relatively easy to compromise.

What we've got is something where 80% of the safety protocols have to come from me. She tries (takes baths when angry, is trying to verbalize soothing requests), but also has a lot more triggers than I do. And she can't hear compromise in the heat of the moment. And panics reliably when she feels abandoned. Now, after the heat of the moment, she actually goes through this odd process where she switches from black to white and back again a bunch of times and usually settles on a rational compromise if you force her out of the selfless one.

But, it feels like working on a power supply without a ground. Sure, you can do it. But you eventually get a nasty shock.

Still, I figure that most of the marriages I've seen haven't been perfect. There's always some sort of occasional trouble...like grandaddy's extra wives. Or another relatives poor, poor ex-husband (well...after she turned state's evidence and walked off clean...and I'm nearly sure it was her business.) Or the uncle who one day tired of his wife's snapping and left the table with her wearing a bowl of soup. Or a co-worker's ex, and her gun.

The basic plan is to build in quite a few more backups.
There's the outer stuff - like a layer of informed friends and family. And school for the children. And the physical stuff...like not keeping weapons in the house. And getting her headphones to reduce the sensory issues. And the mutual stuff...like nonviolent communication classes. I do recommend MML - lovely course. And personal changes. Which are hard sometimes - because we're very different people and neither of us is terribly flexible.

I was raised to never speak a cruel word. And to be most polite in a dispute. And to not raise a hand against a woman. But, I am also the sort of guy who wouldn't flinch at hurting someone he loved terribly, within the limits of the law, if necessary. I'm also not a forgiving man.

She's different. She'll curse and scream. And throw things and punches. But, she's quick to forgive. And will not harm an enemy, even if necessary, let alone someone she loves. 

So, we try to learn new ways. She rolls her eyes at the notion that I dislike slaps. And thinks that my expectation that people will communicate politely when angry is just crazy. But acknowledges that slaps are a bad habit in this country. And that she has a problem with getting out of control. And tries meditation and baths and happy songs. And I try to communicate when she's becoming passionate without withdrawing. And I'm aggravated by her requests to show anger in fights. And just not willing to pin her down and threaten her.

And yep, I'm trying to learn useful responses to her program. Showing hostile emotion when she's being aggravating is calming, and not much effort for me. Speaking up and telling her to come back later is harder without triggering abandonment. Daily family meetings help her feel included. And criticizing 'nonhuman' practices reduces her fear. (Eye contact. Bathe. Don't walk around with your underwear showing. Clean the food off the floor.) I think it is sort of doable - her older brother doesn't have much trouble with her. That bit works.

The part that doesn't? The days where I come home depressed and upset. And, well, even if that's once a month, she's not much good at avoiding a fight. And gets pretty triggered if I wander off and sulk.

--Argyle


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

You must get very tired carrying such a heavy burden all the time.

I actually agree with your wife on this: "And thinks that my expectation that people will communicate politely when angry is just crazy." 

Having been raised by a slap happy Italian Momma... Anger is passion, passion is good. My H hates confrontation and I feel that as lack of care. How can you avoid something you feel strongly about? I get your wife on that on!


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...perspective helps. It can always be worse. 

...yup...it is a common problem. My perspective is that you can step back and decide to act in ways that preserve the relationship. So, instead of going in seeking a confrontation, you can sit back, write out the problem, plan how you're going to present the issue, and then ask your S/O to talk at a mutually agreeable time. And then limiting the discussion to 1 or 2 issues. Still, there's plenty of perfectly valid ways to approach communication.

My wife's approach mainly involves brooding about something else until she's freaking out and then going in guns blazing about something that wasn't bothering her that much. A few hours later, she'll get around to the topic that's actually on her mind. And then either freaking out because I'm having trouble focusing after 3 hours of discussion or freaking out because I'm showing lack of care by not continuing.

I'm mostly fine with the passionate conversations. My main issue is the one where my wife's family -mostly- sorts stuff out with yelling, -occasionally- sorts stuff out with beatings, and -rarely- does something involving potential injury.

My secondary issue is the one where my wife spent a lot of time in denial about the Aspergers thing. Good news though...Asperger's meetups really seem to help. She keeps on meeting people exactly like her...and hearing from people who've tried stuff already is helping her focus her efforts more productively.

But, the primary issue is the depression. Beyond everything else, feeling desperately lonely, worthless, and alienated from humanity kind of sucks. So, getting her out of the house into some sort of stable situation is very high priority. Classes are easy, but don't start for a few months. Other than that, there's study partners. Volunteer work. And real jobs.

Dunno. She's studying, but having some issues because of lack of diligence and lack of time. Schedule extra classes for children? I'm guessing that online class->study partner->offline class is probably the most reliable choice. Although, in the short term, I plan to check into nearby volunteer work.

--Argyle


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...so...baby steps. She's up for a gym membership. But not up for a study group yet - she finds it difficult to concentrate with other people around. Exercise is often good...I'd be happier if I thought she'd attend regularly.

...and yep...angry/hostile responses definitely go over way better than anything kind. 

...of course...she woke up kind of incoherent today...something about leaving before she tried sabotage. So I left.

--Argyle


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Don't know how you do it. You must be superman!


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

I tend to be rather persistent. And tend towards trying to see other people's viewpoints instead of judging them and walking off.

In the end, I think I'd be healthier if I was more judgmental and less prone to tolerate inappropriate behavior. I'm also realizing that the kids don't particularly like being alone with mom. I'm not at all sure that they should be.

--Argyle


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## BigInJapan (Dec 26, 2012)

Argyle,

I'd like to say thank you for posting about your situation here. I know you mentioned that this was a way for you to vent, but it's also been reassuring for me to read about your situation.

It sounds like things are trending upwards (somewhat?) and I hope that continues to be the case.

Something to put on your radar: I recently finished "Just Listen" by Dr. Mark Goulston and some of the strategies outlined in this book have been helpful to me in communicating with my wife. 

Something to look into and maybe a book the two of you could work through together?

--P


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Y'know, things are trending upwards.

I'll check it out. Sounds useful. 

Dunno though. The frustrating part is that listening, validating, et cetera has been mostly counterproductive. So far, the main thing that seems to be appreciably calming is reflecting enough that she believes that I understand where she's coming from...and then raising my voice, telling her that I've heard this useless nonsense before, and don't have time in my life to hear it again.

Odd. She also has a partially internal monologue where she calms herself by saying she's ugly and needs to develop a better personality. I used to argue. I've stopped.

On one hand, she's my wife, and I do have a responsibility there. On the other hand, I have responsibilities to our children and myself. 

Pluses include...
...noticeably increased personal responsibility
...a vaguely workable conflict reduction approach
...some evidence of reduced depression
Minuses include...
...modest evidence of improved self-control

--Argyle


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## BigInJapan (Dec 26, 2012)

Argyle,

There's definitely a fine line between empathizing and enabling. 

On the one hand, I want my wife to understand that I *hear* her; on the other hand, there's only 24 hours in a day and if I'm expected to fulfill all of my responsibilities there have to be limits on the amount of time I devote to listening about the crisis of the moment.

Some of your wife's behaviors that you've mentioned -- hitting herself and extreme self-criticism -- are well within the mainstream of Korean behavior. At least in my experience.

I've seen both exhibited by my wife...not to mention students, family members and work colleagues.

This probably isn't the post for it, but I've often wondered how many of the struggles my wife and I have had to deal with aren't the product of a culture that, generally speaking, doesn't offer a lot of healthy ways to process emotions?

It's not for nothing that Korea has the highest suicide rates in the world, I think.

--P


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Y'know, my BIL believes that Korean culture is inherently mentally unhealthy. But, he's also not wild about Americans. 

...I think that different is a better way to look at it.

Here's some typical behaviors...
1. Screaming, throwing stuff, hitting people, threats.
Argyle: Bad, so bad, abusive.
Wife/BIL: Lifeless American Robot Zombies

Honestly, I think they're closer to right than I am. My suspicion is that American culture tends to avoid conflict more than is healthy. Basically, we rely on creating social rules that consistently have us behaving differently than monkeys - that's hard on people.

2. Beating your wife...
Argyle: Not doing that.
Wife/BIL: But then, how do you maintain order in the family? Seriously, just stop before breaking bones, that's too much. Don't want a nasty husband. (A real problem for Korean men in this country...and for their wives. In more ways than the obvious - some of the women seem unused to self-regulating, so not punching them causes trouble too.)

3. Firing an incompetent person...
Argyle: Sad, but gotta do it.
Wife/BIL: What sort of monster are you??? You have a responsibility to your fellow men.

However, bear in mind that the Korean mainstream seems pretty wide. My wife, in the words of her family, has a 'terrible' personality. And is also mentally ill and mildly autistic. Or possibly autistic and mildly mentally ill. Your wife also shows signs of having a problematic mental state.

See...yes...there's a cultural gap that makes marriage hard. But that isn't all of it. Being married to a crazy person from a different culture is harder. Korea has a more passionate, open culture, but sane Koreans normally pick fights for a real reason.

Dunno about the suicide rates, I think there's a mixture of issues. Collective responsibility weakens individuals, but also reduces really bad outcomes. However, strong status consciousness probably raises risk. Conformity makes it hard for people who can't conform. But, I think most of the suicide rate comes from being a society undergoing transition - Korea modernized awfully quickly. The USA fires a lot of people, but there's a safety net - so you're really better off not killing yourself. There isn't much of a safety net in Korea - or a tradition of rehiring fired people... That and an awful lot of upheaval and death from the Korean war.

--Argyle


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...next...
...wife thanked me for the jail time - feels it marked a turning point for her...also been forwarding me articles on BPD with comments about how they sent chills down her back and thanking me for being patient.
...and is actually waking up by 9ish AM.

...small dispute...mostly sharp words. Instantly calling her on stuff and escalating when she yells a bit...results in her taking 5 min to calm down. Conversations are scary for children, but probably better in that they show conflict resolution.

...it appears that she can't read subtle body language and expects frequent interaction when talking (3-4x/minute). So, nods should be > 30 degrees. Okay.

--Argyle


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

It's a good thing you're journaling all the things you are learning. You can write a how to book.

Learning conflict resolution is good, but kids can't distinguish anger from hatred, neither can your wife. That means you have to go out of your way to demonstrate that difference when arguing in their presence. Just one more thing to add to your never ending list.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...I've been wondering about that...

I think that is more true of the kids than my wife. Part of our issues are that she's highly comfortable with aggressive behavior. So, ASDFADSFG!! FDSSADGF###$!! I WISH YOU DIE, MONSTER. Translates to Argyle-speak as...
'I'm slightly upset. Next time, please pick up the dishes.'
And, the above translates to.
'' (Huh, did you say something?)
in wife-speak.

...the only thing I've come up with is to stick to stuff like...

...that's absolutely f*king unacceptable.
...no - that's not happening.
...yes...I am talking over you...I brought something up...you started talking about something unrelated...I'm not backing down. Shouting isn't going to make a bit of difference, except irritating the neighbors.
...yes...two people talking at cross-purposes won't work...congratulations...practice giving in - because I won't.
...sorry...the thing is...I'm working on improving this relationship...and you find submissive men absolutely enraging. I can't constantly stop and listen to you, or give in and let you choose the topics of conversation without spending 8 hours of my day dancing to your whims. So, you're going to have to practice shutting up sometimes. And, no, I'm not listening to you unless I choose to.
...now, calm down and help me move the dishes.
...NOW.
--Sorry, please give me 5 min to calm down.
...sure.
..........hurry up.
--Okay. Thanks.

...as opposed to...
...#$%#$...
...threats...

I'm kind of hoping that is more or less modeling assertion and letting the kids see people arguing and resolving conflict. I'm pretty sure it is more effective than listening to her - which just never worked - cause then I'm into 8 hour monologues where she's mostly looking for validation of the fact that she has social troubles because everyone else is crazy.

And proceeding to...(after listening a bit)
...remember when you started ranting about eye contact. And it turned out that you needed reminders because you couldn't remember to make eye contact with people. Well, I'm thinking this is another autism-projection thing. So, let's stop and figure out how I can help with your mental issues.
--Growl. Okay.
...so...what sort of body language did you just see?
--Um. You talked?
...well, there was nodding, and handgestures.
--Um.
...(really big nod.) See that?
--Yes. That's better...can't pick up the little stuff.
...You understand...that just isn't normal. Um. How often do you expect similar responses? 
--15 seconds.
...Um. Okay, that explains why you're so annoying when I'm talking. How about I try really, really recognizable responses 4x per minute? And you, consider damping that way down when I'm talking. Interrupting every sentence is likely to irritate people.
--Growl. Although - other people have complained. Sure.

...and then proceeding to...
...so...kiddo...how you feeling?
...scared? Perfectly reasonable to feel scared.
...

(one thing her therapist suggested is empowering the kids as much as possible...so...if child says please stop...stop.)

Another thing I've been trying...somewhat nasty...is rooted in a failed trial. That's be the one where I fairly frequently told my wife that she was beautiful. And ended with her visiting her father in Korea and complaining that she should have been starting her modeling career instead of marrying...but that she planned to start now. And her father just looking at her...dumbstruck...and suggesting she go home to her husband. So, per request, I'm occasionally criticizing her - as in.

...Y'know, wearing 3 hats outside is not something people normally do. Don't worry, you are weird, but I still love you.

...yes, people do look at you oddly. Try to dress like a human.

On one hand, constant criticism isn't healthy. On the other hand:
(a) she finds reminders reassuring. (eye contact, don't walk around outside with your underwear showing)
(b) she has a fading habit of rationalizing XYZ failure resulting from her lack of social ability as stemming from <whoeverisinvolved> being either insane/autistic/evil/or going along with people plotting against her.

So, I'm guessing that frequently being reminded of her odd behavior will be mildly hurtful and discourage (b). Dunno.

--Argyle


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I want you to know I read all of your updates. I am very tired today and my brain is stuck in listen mode. Keep posting.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Heh. Popcorn. Dunno. I mean. At the moment, things are definitely in a white painting region. There isn't much point in considering single moments, as she tends to oscillate a lot. 

And, s'not like there are qualitative changes in behavior.

...but...behaving similarly to her family members seems to resolve most conflicts relatively smoothly. There's still shouting...

...and there has been a qualitative decrease in <everyone else> is responsible for wife <doing crazy behavior Y>. S'not like it has stopped, just decreased 3x or so.

...and she has a mildly rational career plan...is studying...started exercising...actually helped me clean...and is waking up before 10 AM. 

Of course, she's still...
...not a lot of help.
...really messy.
...pretty needy.
...not an excellent parent. (A mix of highly dedicated, emotional overload, disciplinary issues, and low empathy...) But she listens.

I guess I'm feeling optimistic at the moment.

--Argyle


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...feeling optimistic predicts meltdowns... 

...got a bit of bad news...which resulted in a really long angry monologue...after which she took a bath...then lay in bed and shook for a while, punched herself a bit, and asked for a hug. Next day, she got up early, exercised, and apologized.

--Argyle


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...so...
...wife is worried about teaching empathy and social skills to children. She had a lot of bad experiences in college - where - eg - she'd stand up and start talking over the professor because she didn't know when she was supposed to speak.
...okay.
...this is a real worry. The model they're seeing is not representative of normal human interaction. And, independent of nurture, empathy is not likely to be one of their strengths.
...but...I'm not sure she is capable of being an acceptable teacher. I'm sure she's not a great model. Not a bad person - means well - just - it is hard to teach empathy when your reaction to someone collapsing on the floor involves continuing a monologue.

See, long emotional, disjointed monologues - followed with complaints that the children are asking unrelated questions - don't seem productive. Frankly, they seemed scared. I spent some time guiding the lesson - so that kinda worked.

Basically, she doesn't want our children to be the ones talking about something else when someone's just been injured. The issue is that -*she is that person*-.

Um. I'm thinking - pick up workbooks on teaching children empathy. They could use some practice. And, well, the structure will help her. Besides, relative to her, the children are advanced, so maybe she'll learn something. Dunno.

--Argyle


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...another week of white-painting.
...the workbook on teaching empathy really calmed her. Hasn't tried it yet...but...I'll try running through some of the exercises with her and the children.

--Argyle


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...put children to bed...cuddled...
...wife immediately began criticizing over not reaching out to her enough...
...mentioned that wasn't the way to handle cuddling..
...sorry...was just sabotaging....
...had a nice night...
...albeit...she asked me to stay away this morning...having abandonment issues from a dream where her friend steals me away. Respecting her request, but not sure that's the right action.
--Argyle


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Holy cow Argyle! is this trend continuing today? This is really positive self awareness! 

I'm sure there will be step backs but these are really positive improvements! Crossing my fingers it is still moving forward...


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Eh. Two steps forward, one step back. (And, of course, the usual illnesses. I'm still on antibiotics. And my wife is coming down with, hopefully, something different. Cause what I had just wasn't good.)

News about her family...really wasn't good...and is filtered through a crazy mom...problem is that crazy mom is the only one who bothers talking to wife...long, long abusive monologue. I decided to stay around this time. My choice. Possibly wrong.

...followed by watching stuff on emotional abuse on NPR and apologizing. We eventually talked about the real issue. That talk went well.

...I'm trying to keep in mind that she's not good at dealing with emotional distress...and she currently has a real reason to worry. I'm trying to listen, reassure, and keep my mouth shut. Problem is, as far as I can tell, the family problem is pretty serious. (As in, anyone normal would also be seriously concerned. Which doesn't mix well with my normal method of reassurance...(just remember, we'll all be dead someday)) Oh well, day by day. I'd send her home for a bit for her own sake...except that they're dealing with enough problems that they really, really don't want her to visit right now.

...she's been reading child to bed regularly and mostly taking to school on time. Yay...child is really mommy hungry. We've been making board games into family time...which mostly works.

...thinking, for next disagreement...I'll see if we can record and dissect it a bit. I'll sit down and ask for advice on what she'd prefer. And then we can do some roleplaying.

--Argyle


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Argyle, you have to write a book about this one day! It may not be a best seller but the insight you can provide is just fantastic!


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Yay!! Gym schedule is firming up. 100% success so far this week. And cheap babysitting there doesn't go amiss. Children are quite vehement about attending the gym, as they get to play with kids their own age.

Eh. Somewhat frustrated with wife. She threw tantrum when I told her I was busy today and needed to sleep...

Eh+. However, enforcing early bedtimes has the advantage that when your wife throws a tantrum, there's plenty of time to get sleep anyways.

Eh++. And wife apologized in the morning...and actually took children to school on time. Yay. Shame it is the last day.

Erm. Experimenting a bit. Wife complained about lack of communication. So, now we're having R/S talks every night about every difficult, painful aspect of our marriage until she says they're completely resolved. Her most recent assessment was 'Oh. No. Please, let's just not talk anymore - ever.' Probably a step up from 'Why don't we ever communicate.' I'll try keeping it up for a month or two.

--Argyle


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Oh Argyle... Your wife is so lucky to have such a responsive caring partner!


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...and...erm...
...wife would like to review some texts on communication...
...she's noticed that she monologues constantly and does odd things and would like to minimize the impact of that on our children. Not a whole ton of follow-through yet. However, we have a bunch of books...and she finds having homework calming. (Difference between...'Aigh...what can I do...we're all gonna die!!!' and 'Oh, right...read the book...getting right on that...after my nap.')

My thought is that everyone can learn social skills to some extent, but I'm not sure she's being realistic about how much she can change. Eg., I'm pretty sure she could stop walking around in public with three hats and a child's jacket wrapped around her head. I'm not sure she can avoid bragging about smart children to the mother of a disabled child... Meh. No harm in improving oneself.

...more promisingly, she noticed that, even if people avoid her on one day, they tend to behave differently the next day. So, she's planning on not panicking and running away every time someone forgets to say 'hi.'

...life is currently quiet. Lots of cuddling and watching TV together. I'd like something more interactive, but conversation is still a challenge. Feel like hoping today. So tonight will probably suck.

--Argyle


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Does she really dress like that? can you explain more about that?


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## salamander (Apr 2, 2013)

I am sitting here, soooo impressed by what I'm reading! Argyle, you are amazing.

I have crawled out of the hellhole of bpd but I was higher-functioning. Since your wife is now reading and working on her own transformation, I wanted to add a couple of items to her / your list.

DBT Self Help is a great resource full of action strategies for emotional regulation and distress tolerance, social skills, and more.

Karla McLaren is an expert in empathy and, increasingly, autism. The articles on her website are wonderful, but if you can get her books or audio programs, wow! I listen for free at various places like Sounds True free samples.

It is so exciting for you and your wife to be starting this path! 

All my love and light.


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## salamander (Apr 2, 2013)

I forgot: from the founder of Somatic Experiencing treatment:

Trauma-Proofing Your Kids: A Parents' Guide for Instilling Confidence, Joy ... - Peter A. Levine, Maggie Kline - Google Books


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

@Anon
Yes. Not kidding. She seems to have two reasons.
(a) Fear of aging skin - which she tackles in a typically absolute fashion. (three hats, slathered on suntan lotion...so I'm walking around with a slimy white ghost wearing multiple hats.)
(b) Overstimulation - she finds being outdoors less stressful if her vision is restricted and her ears blocked off. Probably a good choice, as active areas (eg, amusement parks) can result in her overloading and basically sitting around twitching. I've had to lead her back to the car a few times.

Dunno. She doesn't seem to notice exactly how odd she looks.

On the bright side, she relaxes a lot if she remembers headphones. (there's this lovely book on coping with autism...)

I feel a bit embarrassed when we go outside, but she's pretty inflexible on the headgear requirement. I usually settle for asking her to finish wiping down the suntan lotion. I figure that fits under helping her fit in. 

I'm thinking that I remember a lovely girl who often went about in a sunhat with an attached mesh - and - if I could find one it might be a bit more fashionable than her current choices. (Help...I can't seem to find the headgear I'm remembering...) I thought about a headscarf, but, eh, probably wouldn't help her fit in. But, eh, really not a big deal...just...a small annoyance.

Overall, one thing I'm noticing is that she really does behave less oddly around her family. They're rather odd themselves, but are also very critical of others - so they'll lecture her repeatedly before letting her leave the house. She seems to have an odd mix of emotions there. She feels safer if other people remind her to look human. But, she feels stressed and invalidated...and eventually breaks down because she can't handle constantly pretending to be normal.

She seems to be in the process of moving (mostly there) from being miserable because everyone else is crazy to accepting that she's different from other people and trying to figure out how to train herself to be normal. It is progress, as the first viewpoint involves indefinite pain and stuckness. Unfortunately, I'm guessing that the second viewpoint will involve a lot of stress and misery - as she's not normal - smart, yes, capable, yes, normal, no. I'm tempted to try to kick her into what I see as the third stage - which involves accepting that she'll always be odd and just reaching accommodations that let her live reasonably effectively, but I'm thinking that she needs to spend some time trying out the pretending before she moves onto real acceptance. I might be overly pessimistic, as she's pretty open to trying out realistic exercises recommended in books on coping with autism...eg.

@salamandar Yay!!! Thanks for the links. They all look useful.  And congratulations!!!

--Argyle


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## salamander (Apr 2, 2013)

Here's a cute UV-protective hat:
Black Scala Hat Ladies UV Sun Protection Rated UPF 50 Wide Brim LC 399 | eBay

I really like that you are encouraging W to think beyond "normal". Normal is a mathematical concept, not a personal one. We are all unique and wonderful, and I love reading how you encourage her to be herself.

I was also thinking, since she is interested in modeling, why don't you plan a nice boudoir photography day? I bet she'd love being in front of the camera and having all those glamour pictures of herself. Maybe she could take some fashion or art classes at the local community college?

It's easier being weird when you're an artist.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

The hat is beautiful. But, that resembles her standard hats - and doesn't screen out the outside world enough. She'd follow that one up with a cold-weather hat that covers her face and ears. 

The hat I remember resembled a bee-keeper's outfit, or possibly mosquito netting - but cuter.

I'm thinking, don't encourage the modeling. For people with a tendency towards gullibility and narcissism, it may be best to not encourage unrealistic expectations. (and, while pretty, she is not model material.)

Oddly, she is an artist. Excellent painter, but doesn't believe art is a good career choice. I've tried getting her back into it, but, aside from some pencil sketches, haven't had much luck. It may be that I can convince her to teach our child someday. Or not, I remember language lessons from my own mother, and that just didn't work.

At the moment, she's working on learning a bit of programming, on the belief that odd people will fit in well there. She's been through a few textbooks and online courses already and is continuing onwards. Seems to enjoy it.

--Argyle


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## salamander (Apr 2, 2013)

I feel like I kind of relate to her. I was brought up to think art was not a good career choice, too, but now I do it full time and it is tremendously rewarding. Also, I am not particularly beautiful, but I really enjoy my work modeling for Life Drawing classes at the local colleges. It's helped me with poise and confidence, and I meet some pretty outstanding members of the art community. Sorry to threadjack with my own agenda ;-)


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...y'know, I kind of suspect art might be a decent idea for her - as she's had offers for her paintings. Problem is that the successful non-dead artists I know are pretty decent at self-promotion, which just wouldn't work out.

...I can see modeling as a source of self-esteem in general, I'd just like to avoid a repeat of the 'emigrating to Korea to start a modeling career' incident.

--Argyle


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## salamander (Apr 2, 2013)

argyle said:


> ...y'know, I kind of suspect art might be a decent idea for her - as she's had offers for her paintings. Problem is that the successful non-dead artists I know are pretty decent at self-promotion, which just wouldn't work out.
> 
> ...I can see modeling as a source of self-esteem in general, I'd just like to avoid a repeat of the 'emigrating to Korea to start a modeling career' incident.
> 
> --Argyle


ah, Success, the crippling "S" word. Is her income required? For some reason it seemed to me that she wasn't able to hold down a regular job. (Hopefully not more projection on my part. I have a hard time holding down a daily schedule of any kind.). No, art is not a guarantee for financial success, but when you're an artist, you just HAVE to create and express, or it chews you up inside. Art is a lot like play, it's process-oriented as much or more than outcome-oriented. There are a lot of careers now merging art with computers, however, and really neat new toys. I would love to have a wacom tablet, for instance!

As for figure modeling, it pays a great hourly wage, $20-25 an hour, and sometimes the tips from posing for studio artists bring it up to $50/ hour. Why go to korea when there's a modeling career at home? I get so much respect and appreciation from artists, plus i get all the instruction for free. Boy do i know my surface anatomy. Sometimes i worry about being a bit narcissistic, too...modeling actually keeps me real and i get a socially acceptable outlet for my ego.

Ok, lol, sorry to flog my hobby horse again here. Pm me if you want more details about how she can get into life art modeling.

Peace!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...her income isn't strictly necessary, but she is much happier when she's working - and is capable of holding down some jobs pretty indefinitely. She has a driving need to be around other people and interact with them. She's just...really bad at it.

...I dunno. I can see art/modeling as a backup idea, but she's pretty driven to try to have some sort of career...and she's kind of culturally snobbish in odd ways about work. (better to be a government clerk than a lowly banker)

--Argyle


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...I'm thinking...some sort of clerical position requiring modest database skills and possibly some web design. That'd be fairly stable and not require constant interaction...and she'd be very happy being around people in modest doses.

...weekend was nice. Things really do seem to be improving...crossed fingers though. The bit that's new is that we've been having arguments which either resolve reasonably or that she walks away from. I'm actually pretty impressed.

--Argyle


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Vacations are usually a big problem for us. Went on vacation. It was actually really fun.

Pluses: No big arguments. We got along really well. It was nice.

Several almost arguments, but wife calmed herself. (well, after storming out for a while)

Minuses: It was that time of the month. So, about 6 hours were devoted to hiding in the room while wife sat and trembled with anxiety attack... I should encourage her to talk to her psychiatrist about anxiety medications.

Child-rearing is still an issue. She's trying to teach empathy to the kidlings. S'lot like a blind man teaching colors. Last time resulted in children running off in tears with mom apologizing.

Notes:
1. Child seems to be testing boundaries - involving a lot of running away and hiding. Also, a lot of edging towards the side of the bed and saying I want the child to fall. Not so sure what to do about that, except fetching.

2. Wife is much more sensitive about autism than insanity.

3. Need to organize a small family study group - on teaching kids conversation - wife is terrified that children will mimic her speech patterns.

--Argyle


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Practicing persistence/harassment 
...found a lovely book on social skills for autistics...wife thought it'd be useless. So, I took to reading passages to her while we were exercising. She's seeing the value now. I'm thinking of a lesson plan. The goal isn't so much that she develop those skills (I mean, that'd be nice...), but more that she develop enough of a vocabulary that when annoying behavior XYZ occurs, I can refer to mental issue DEF and she can try compensating.

I'm thinking the next lesson is on learning to categorize people using more than one criterion. (NO!!! TELL ME - IS SHE GOOD OR EVIL? WILL SHE KILL ME?) I am so tired of those discussions.

After that, probably learning to read body language; and some basic conversational rules...like not monopolizing conversations for hours at a time while people are looking at their watches; and um, lots of stuff. The main goal being that she eventually accept that there's no magic bullet to stop being odd and that persistent effort and picking battles is a better strategy.

One thing I've picked up is that many autistics really have to constantly practice social behaviors or they tend to lose them - which would explain a lot. Particularly her requests that I have a zero tolerance for weird. And the fact that she tends to stop bathing unless reminded.

--Argyle


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...overall dull...
...although she messed up with sleeping pills and ended up with a 10 day gap. So, naturally, she took clonazapam to sleep - and ended up irritable and nigh-suicidally depressed...and sleeping until 2 PM. Annoying, but kinda not my problem.

...on the bright side, though we had a few annoying discussions, they were relatively short/quiet. Which is actually a big improvement compared to her last clonazapam experience. Reminding her that she was taking those pills and driving herself insane seemed to help.

...on the meh side, one of her special interests currently seems to be trying to understand social behaviors. Okay, great, I hate to discourage her, probably it is healthy - at least relative to assuming that everything she doesn't understand is hostility. But, (venting), multiple 1-2 hour monologues, question/answer sessions on why, eg, a guy at our table offered nuts to another guy?? 

--Argyle


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...so...lovely, quiet times.
...had fun...summarized Grandin's book on social relationships. She seemed to listen. Main point was to establish some common ground.

...so...for the future...
black/white thinking -> 'try categorical thinking'
oddities->blunt correction (people normally wear only 1 hat, please bathe)
situation anxiety->'try ranking the problem'
social blunder worry->'one mistake doesn't have to ruin your day. try apologizing'
obsessing->'analysis paralysis, just flip a coin'
monologing->'okay, special interest, stop'

She's back on Prozac, seems to help. I probably will buy her a pill organizer.

...minuses...she's still a complete slob. I mean. Gah. Eats on the floor. Leaves the plates there. I was busy this week - and ended up spending an hour or two on Saturday just cleaning the living room until I could see the floor. Our children are fussy about food, but I think it is just a rational response to the food poisoning issue.

--Argyle


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...yelling fit...I went to bed. Btw, a little tip, wax earplugs are just lovely. Worst part...she calms down at some point, and starts hugging me and apologizing. I didn't want to hurt her feelings by pushing her off, but, eh, I slept poorly last night.

--Argyle


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Lovely vacation. Followed by lengthy fit about long-standing insecurity. Decided to hear her out this time - problem may have been permanently resolved. Then, a couple of weeks of quiet time followed by another fight about not getting a lot of exercise over the weekend.

Dealt with by explaining that (a) I wouldn't listen unless she heard me out first, (b) that we'll have more time to exercise if she wakes up before noon, (c) that I was busy and didn't have time to talk that night. She yelled and then went for a long walk and came back later apologizing. I sent her email later responding to her worry. Mostly by telling her to get up earlier in the morning and stop wasting my time with BS. Dunno. MCs felt it was better to model responding to aggressive behavior, but the volume was loud enough to scare the kids.

--Argyle


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Modest drama. Not related to us exactly. Apparently her parents will be visiting. 

...I tried to let her handle filling out the required forms. And spent 3 hours with her stuck on filling out the forms the wrong way. Eventually, after a lot of stress, she read through the sections I'd highlighted in the instructions and went with 'oops, you're right.'

...so I filled out the forms in 3 hours, 1.5 hours of which were her getting information from her parents and half and hour of which was me dragging the translation out of her. Good, but, glah. She really does get stuck on things.

--Argyle


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If it's the well used USCIS Affidavit Of Support I have filled so many of those I can pretty much do one for my wife's relatives in a half hour... Even have an assets spreadsheet ready...

Thankfully her father is fairly old (mid 80s) and I don't anticipate having to do this again. I much rather to have her spend a few weeks in the old country. Having an elder visitor with health issues is a recipe for financial disaster.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Pretty much. Her parent's aren't that old...so it may be ok on the health front. OTOH, the nurture part of my wife's upbringing is giving me pause.

For now, I'm giving the benefit of the doubt and planning on being the quiet but really scary SIL.* But I need to plan ahead for the domestic violence. Haven't really come up with a good plan. The BIL seems to be planning on dumping the parents on the street. Eh. I'm thinking that they either get it under control or the MIL and FIL will eventually need to separate. Can't see this ending happily, but there are always alternatives.

So, yah. Sigh.

Other than some worries, wife has been remarkably kind and supportive. Still disturbingly messy, but even getting children to school on time. Maybe it is evil, but I told her that repeated lateness/absences would probably go to CPS/the police. Suddenly, no problem.

--Argyle

*FIL believes that Korean people are basically good-hearted - so they may fight and scream, but they also forgive. He believes I'm not Korean. Smart guy. Thing is that I'm worried about models for the children - so's my wife. I figure, most probable case, we find him and his wife public housing somewhere.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Well, it sounds like you are Korean regardless, so you have a heads up on what the culture expects and so on. I could barely find Farawaystan on the map when I met her... 

My FIL actually likes me. I speak a bit of their language and understand a lot more, but it's a screwed up culture nonetheless. We pretty much have to have a directed graph of which relatives don't speak to which relatives, and so on. 

Not fun. She has a ton of relatives in Texas, some people she grew up with. We'll be doing college visits in a few months and I seriously doubt we'll stop to say hi. Family values galore :rofl:

Worst part about the USCIS forms is the information you send along - identity theft galore. I have to send some stuff to my own birth country and after I dropped the letter I realized exactly how much information is there and who'll be seeing it . Third World Problems... Not to mention eternal complaints ("you make how much and you don't send me X, Y, and Z when I ask?" - we mail 3-4 packages a year).


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...meh...I'm not Korean. Their culture is close-but different, and there's continual surprises.

--Argyle


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Mea culpa... What do you think the situation would have been if you were? I can't fathom a Farawaystan guy putting up with my wife's antics for more than a year or two. Divorce there, being Muslim, is a lot faster than in other places.... Likewise if she was from my little European country it would not have gone well for her either due to our society there being a lot more formal and uppity even... 

Fate has a good sense of humor I guess.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Her father and mother were pretty sure of the outcome. Her husband would have hospitalized her 4 or 5 times before either divorcing or murdering her. Of course, she might have changed her behavior after a few broken bones...or she might have met a really nice guy who only beat her occasionally and put up with a lot.

--Argyle


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...sigh...had a lovely weekend...except for the sucralose. Which has historically resulted in really bad mood swings. Every time. We've been avoiding it for years.

*#1: Just because something has real sugar in it doesn't mean that it doesn't also have sucralose. She was so proud of finding such a sweet-tasting low calorie drink with real sugar. Sigh. I blanched when I read the whole ingredient list on the empty bottle.
*

So, long frantic argument and general upset. She'd been doing so well otherwise. Followed by going to sleep...lots of crying on her end...and hugging in the morning. Seems to be feeling better today. Problems is that she had a paranoid episode at my mother's place. Lots of accusations that other people were out to get her. I owe mom something - probably yardwork.

--Erwin


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

So, bit of a family crisis. Overall, my wife and I have weathered the worst of it with little or no conflict. Rah.

Many mixed emotions, but I will choose to remember the individual in question as someone who fought long and hard for their family in spite of missing many of the tools needed to be fight successfully. They made up in endurance what they lacked in sense.

--Argyle


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...no crisis. Actually, mature, well-reasoned and reasonably steady decisions. That result in my wife spending the next 4 or so weeks in Korea taking care of her mother. 

...On one hand, the house is a lot cleaner and the children are going to bed on time. I plan on spending a week per room in my off hours throwing out about 70% of our stuff. 

...on the other hand, I do slightly resent being stuck taking care of everything else while she's away. And the children do miss her.

...on the third hand, she needs this and her mother was apparently having trouble coping. So, I'm okay with everything for now. I'm planning on sending a romantic note every few days and on evening and morning video chats - the kids like them too.

--Argyle


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The month my wife spent in her birth country dealing with her crisis was by far the best time ever with my girls... Not much cleaning, just having a good time. 

Enjoy!


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...incredibly busy few months...actually really not wife-related at all*...and all good...just really, really busy.

...still working long days...and then spending the weekends unpacking and Ikeaing it up really sucks up the time. 

...we're almost settled again and I finally see the light at the end of the tunnel. I sat down today.  Of course, the lost furniture arrives tomorrow...

--Argyle
*Well, excepting the part where some wives are apparently actually helpful as opposed to leaving their husbands to assemble furniture, pack and unpack an entire house, and manage every aspect of moving across the country...


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Life is dull. Turns out my wife is pretty susceptible to depression while grieving, which probably is not uncommon. It didn't help that she was low on psychiatric medicine for a while... Oh well, we have fewer Christmas ornaments. But, the second incident was simple clumsiness. Sadly, the first was a rage fit.

She seems to have turned a corner, but it is hard to tell - two steps forward, two steps back sometimes. She was doing quite well before some unfortunate outside events.

I'm currently looking for a new psychologist/psychiatrist for her. I am not rushing, just laying groundwork - I'd prefer spending months finding someone competent to finding an idiot quickly. Her relatives have been quite helpful in snapping her out of the worst of her depression. Meh. I'll be happier when she starts bathing again. She was never that reliable, but recently she's been worried about aging and has been smearing lots of Vaseline on her face, which gets in her hair. Picture that in combination with a lack of baths.

Interesting note - she's much more of a TV person than a reader. It turns out that there is a rather odd man who has put out a series of videotapes on NPD on YouTube. My wife just started spontaneously watching them. I always figured it was discomfort with the subject matter that stopped her reading a lot of the references on personality disorders. 

It turns out that, even though the videotapes make her really uncomfortable in the '#$%, I do that' way - the main barrier was always just not liking to read. There's more merit in making knowledge available through different mediums than I'd guessed.

--Argyle


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

How are you searching for the doctor?


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Excellent question. Our insurance does mental health coverage. But, we don't know anyone in the area. 
For psychiatrists, I'm looking for someone with decent ratings and short travel times.

For psychologists, it is more complicated. I'm currently rating doctors according to a long list: I checked with my primary care physician, but she only had general recommendations. I'm thinking of quizzing my wife's old psychologist.

(a) travel time
(b) reimbursement status
(c) CBT experience
(d) PD experience
(e) autism experience
(f) ratings
(g) any recommendations I can acquire

I dunno - I sort of think that the autism experience may be a high priority. Many of my therapists have trouble relating to my wife's less empathic moments. For DBT groups, um, I'm hoping that the psychologist in question can provide advice.

...latest episode...she starts frantically callimg me at work, in tears, and sending disjointed emails on autism...I get caught up in work and get home late...

...so we sit down and talk...and she explains that she understands that connecting with autistic people is really hard...and that she understands that I'm probably really lonely...and that she went through the articles and understands that the whole filthy silent person sitting in the corner tapping at her tablet while dropping food on the floor and ignoring father and child playing together is probably really hard to live with...

...but that she's really lonely and would like to try to schedule some time together to bond because she really needs schedules because she's autistic. So, we made some plans.

I was startled. Seems like a positive development though.

After that, she got nervous about lice because something was biting her - probably fleas - and bathed. She's talking about finding a job somewhere and probably will get around to it within a few months... Dunno. I get the feeling that being home for extended periods is harder for her than for other people, and it just isn't easy for anyone. Something she said about forgetting how to be human made a lot more sense in the context of a book that mentioned that autistics seem to need to constantly reinforce social skills. 

Any tips on Facebook? A fairly insane mutual acquaintance messaged a friend my wife hasn't spoken to in 5 years. Which has naturally resulted in significant paranoia and assumptions that the acquaintance is stalking everyone my wife knows. Now, given that the acquaintance is insane, the paranoia isn't totally unjustified (and was completely justified in the past) ... but it has been nearly 10 years...and there's nothing to do about it anyways... I'm wondering if there is a way to block my wife's awareness of certain people on Facebook without them ever catching on. See, if they ever did catch on, there probably would be insane behavior.

Oh well, her current obsessions are NPD and Victoria's Sweetheart models. Lots of YouTube videos.

--Argyle


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Not sure you should be manipulating her experiences.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

"In wartime, truth is so precious it should be attended by bodyguards of lies" - Winston Churchill.

I don't think dealing with BPD calls for any less drastic measures.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...meh....more offering to modify her Facebook settings to make her life easier.

...she's already asked me to automatically hide emails from her in-laws and significantly modify her Facebook settings. Facebook really is crazymaking for crazy people...

...problem is that my suspicion is that blocking is the only thing that'd work...and the person I'd be blocking would react badly if she ever found out.

--Argyle


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Found her a job...remarkable improvement...followed by immediate firing. Meh. She has 3 more interviews. Nothing special, just something to get her out of the house. I'm guardedly optimistic as she actually started bathing and waking up on time. She even cleaned a bit.

Some crying fits...and abusive behavior...related to her father's death. Hugs seem to result in anger followed by tears.

Eh. At the moment, she's terribly afraid of a lot of people...eg...doormen. On the bright side, she's receptive to the notion that people treat you better when you bathe.

--Argyle


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Did you ever find her a doctor?


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Meh. Bright side - she found herself a therapist, psychiatrist, and group counseling session.

Dark side - the clinic she joined just found out that they're closing in a month...

Her therapist is trying to transfer to a neighboring clinic and asking for letter of recommendation to bolster her case by showing she has paying clients...I'm not sure her psychiatrist will see her before the clinic closes. Kind of a shame, they're actually basically next door.

Oh well...life isn't perfect. Bright side is she's maintaining a more normal sleep schedule - as trying to shift by 8 hours in 2 days was hard.

--Argyle


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