# Role of the Integrated Man in Marriage



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

We dance around terms like alpha/beta, D/s, doormat, Nice Guy, provider, care-taker, smothering, aloof ... if you've been here a while you have heard them all.

Don't think I've ever seen a thread on the phrase that I actually prefer: integrated male, or man.

Importantly, I don't think being THAT guy is static. A lot of it has to do with wiring. 

A woman may adore her take charge husband who can change the oil, and put an addition on the house, and is emotionally steady as a rock. Yet she is disappointed that his emotional expressiveness, or appetite for sexual adventure also mimics the rock.

I'm curious to know, particularly of the gentlemen that would self-identify as being in 'good marriages' what it is that you have for yourself or do for yourself, either in your conduct, or your own self interest that you believe defines you?

It may be the thing that your wife loves about you. Or it may be the thing that drives her crazy and she wants to change ... that you simply won't ... ever.

What defines you? And in turn, defines the nature of your relationship?

Saw some posts in the weenie thread that made me think of this.


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## Maneo (Dec 4, 2012)

What defines me is only part if what defines the relationship. For what defines her also goes into what defines the relationship. And the relationship itself then is part of what defines each of us and changes those definitions. It is not a simple equation where the pieces can be easily isolated nothing stands alone.


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## Convection (Apr 20, 2013)

Deejo said:


> I'm curious to know, particularly of the gentlemen that would self-identify as being in 'good marriages' what it is that you have for yourself or do for yourself, either in your conduct, or your own self interest that you believe defines you?





Deejo said:


> What defines you? And in turn, defines the nature of your relationship?


I don't know if I am an "integrated" male, per se - nor an Alpha, Beta, or anything else, for that matter. I never really worried about it.

I think I have a good marriage. It has struggles and troubles, like any other. Lady Convection and I are both stubborn, type A personalities, so that leaves a lot of room for conflict. We're also two people that, prior to meeting, never thought we'd get married (me ever, her again) but she says and acts happy, so I think our marriage is good, if not awesome. Sixteen years and counting.

If I have to think of something that defines me and my behavior in our marriage, it is that I have never surrendered the core of my being. I generally like who I am and am happy with myself. Sure, I have flaws but who doesn't? This translates to a self-respect and a general attitude that give one a confidence that can't be matched in any other form - specifically, I feel like no matter what happens to me, I will be fine, I will adjust, I will go on. If that going on includes my wife, great! If she decides she wants to go another route, that would be sad but at the end of the day, I know I'll be okay. We've fought before where the "d" word has come up. I spent some time thinking through the emotional and financial ramifications and shrugged. I'd live.

I know what her needs are and I try to meet them - but not at the expense of my self-respect. One of Lady C's Love Languages is Acts of Service. She spent the first 35 years of her life picking up after and tending to other people, so she loves when I do stuff for her. However, if I do things for her and she is overly critical, I call her on it - and then stop doing it.

This doesn't mean I am closed off to change or self-improvement but basically, I know who I am, and I refuse to be changed. And the more she tries to change me, the less love I will feel for her. She will either love me as I am (and she does!) or she won't. If she opts not to, other women will, and Lady C acknowledges this (she is jealous and gets mildly annoyed every time she catches a woman sizing me up). Lady C is fantastic in this sense, since she stated early on that she wouldn't try to change me and for the most part, she hasn't.

In our day to day life, this means I can just be myself. I do not have to put up a facade. I am not beholden to her expectations or ideals. We acknowledge our faults and differences, renew our love daily, and never stop communicating.

Incidentally, this extends to other relationships. I heard someone once say, "A friend is someone who knows exactly what's wrong with you but likes you anyway." Yeah. People who like me as I am will earn my undying loyalty. Those who don't can fall into a nest of rabid wolverines, for all I care. That goes double for women, and Lady C, God bless her, loves me just as I am.

Whew, sorry for the novel.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Convection said:


> Incidentally, this extends to other relationships. I heard someone once say, "A friend is someone who knows exactly what's wrong with you but likes you anyway." Yeah. People who like me as I am will earn my undying loyalty. Those who don't can fall into a nest of rabid wolverines, for all I care. That goes double for women, and Lady C, God bless her, loves me just as I am.
> 
> Whew, sorry for the novel.


I really like this last part. It's important. But what I have no doubt noted in my relationships over time is that someone can start out loving those qualities ... and as time goes on, the very thing they once adored you for now becomes the focus of their displeasure.

Have a friend whose girlfriend at the time described all of the reasons that she loved him so much. They married. He didn't change a whit, nor will he ever. After about 18 months she started flipping her lid. Basically wanted to take her extraordinarily talented human services husband, and have him become a captain of industry. Loved who he was ... but wanted him to change.

Needless to say, they are no longer married. She was a very likeable person, but turned into a bat-sh!t crazy shrew. Once divorced, I met her several years later. With a wonderful, far more suitable man. She seemed very likeable once again.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

I found out yesterday that I'm a weenie


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

I've never bothered with terms like these. I'm a man, she's a woman and together we're forging a marriage together.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

I've heard it said many times women marry men hoping they'll change...men marry women hoping they won't.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

what defines me as a MAN!

a penis of course.

seriously...... I make sure my family has a roof over their heads food in their bellies,cloths on their backs & shoes on their feet. that they can come to me for love and suport and encouragment. Along with putting the hammer down as needed.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

MaritimeGuy said:


> I've heard it said many times women marry men hoping they'll change...men marry women hoping they won't.


Both are illogical.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Both are illogical.


Probably...but it's a nifty play on words.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

thatbpguy said:


> I've never bothered with terms like these. I'm a man, she's a woman and together we're forging a marriage together.


At least until it screws up and she insists it's your fault ...

I don't think anyone bothers with the terms, until or unless they need to.

The terms aren't as important as is the behavior that garners outcomes that both parties are happy with.

To me, 'integrated man' = 'good man'

Self reliant, confident, dependable, capable with miter saw or a 4 month old child. Conflict averse, but by no means conflict avoidant. Has the love and admiration of those under his charge, rather than distrust and disrespect.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I'm curious to know, particularly of the gentlemen that would self-identify as being in 'good marriages' what it is that you have for yourself or do for yourself, either in your conduct, or your own self interest that you believe defines you? It may be the thing that your wife loves about you. Or it may be the thing that drives her crazy and she wants to change ... that you simply won't ... ever.


Very good question.

- I am in love with her. 14 years have passed since we got together, and more since I fell in love with her as a teenager. The fact that I am still actively, deeply in love with her means everything to both of us.

- I'm not a pushover. No matter how flawed I can be, the thought of being held down, controlled, or disrespected in my marriage doesn't cross my mind. And my wife, who respects me sometimes more than myself, wouldn't ever go there. If she was the kind of person who couldn't respect me, I wouldn't have married her.

- I know how to please my woman well in bed. 

- I know how to be pleased by my woman in bed.

- We have a palpable chemistry. 

- We are very spiritually connected and compatible. The Lord is vital to both of us individually and collectively. 

- If it was up to my wife, we'd be bunned and cuddled up most of the day. I need space and alone time. I made this clear long before I was married (we were together for many years before we wed). It's non-negotiable. This use to be a bigger issue for her, but over time she's come to appreciate her alone time. Still she loves spending time with me, and while I adore her, I still love spending time alone as well as with her.

- Friendship is non-negotiable. I have a large social circle and a lot of people I love. Having outside interests and people are very important to both of us. Again, non-negotiable.

- I am emotionally vulnerable and open person, especially to my wife. But I don't talk as much as she does, and actually the older I get the more I don't share. I'd like to change this and talk even more with my wife. But she knows my heart and I don't hide it from her. 

- She loves, and craves, my body and my c0ck. She adores these things. She thinks I'm hot, even more so now that I've shifted some serious weight. She finds me far more attractive than I find me.

- I've had periods where she made more than me. I didn't allow this to emasculate me, and she never would. I personally wasn't always happy about it, but I never allowed those feelings to disrupt us, and never did I expect her to treat me differently. If she tried that wouldn't fly. We rarely ever have money issues between us. It's just a non-issue 95% of the time. 

- I am invested in my wife, as a person. I'm her biggest cheerleader. I pour words of encouragement into her constantly, lift her up, tell her she can fly higher than she thinks or imagines. This has changed her life (and she has changed mine equally). But I'm tougher with her, more blunt, than she sometimes likes. But often it's what she needs. She's a sweetness and light kind of person, and prefers you sugar coat stuff. But that's often the last thing my wife needs. 

- I respect my wife. I do not degrade her or belittle her confidence. If I come at her too strong, I always apologize.

- We can communicate. We are very, very in tune with one another emotionally. I know my wife very, very, very well.

- I listen to her. That's vital to her, vitally important that she's heard.

- I know how to lead.

- I _need_ my wife. As independent, and stubborn, as I can be I still need this woman. The thought of losing her is detrimental to me. And she knows how much I need her. 

- As close as we are, as much as she loves me, and is deeply in love with me, as much as she knows me in ways that still surprise me I will admit that part of me remains elusive to me. A bit of mystery. 

This has helped lead to a marriage that we both adore and hope only gets better with time.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

I will only allow Mach to define who I am.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I'm curious to know, particularly of the gentlemen that would self-identify as being in 'good marriages' what it is that you have for yourself or do for yourself, either in your conduct, or your own self interest that you believe defines you?


Simple,

I was never a "_ people pleaser_."

I always did my own thing , even when I was being flexible , I did it because I convinced myself it was the best thing to do given the situation

Deciding to get married at 24 to woman I had only been in an intimate relationship with for a few months was me doing my own thing. _But we had been friends for many years before._

She deciding to go against all the advice almost everyone, except her mom, gave her to the contrary , and still get married to me was out of character for her, but she trusted that I knew what I was doing.
20 years later, that confidence she has in me is still there.

I've never liked the idea of X or Y outcomes being out of the reach of my hands , and always believed that I could effect change, by my action.
And that worked for me , in my professional endeavors and it worked for us, in our relationship.

But like you mentioned there can be a negative side to those personality traits. The trick imo , is balance and self awareness.

Lol, my mother always told me " _know yourself._."

My wife and I are two totally different personality types, but what I've noticed is that , our personalities tend to complement each other in ways that help us understand each other, which helps resolve conflicts.

The key is self awareness and balance.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

rules of ebgagement
1) women are NEVER happy/satisfied
2) no one can be an expert at everything, as husbands, providers, fathers, homeowners, employees, we are forced to be jacks of all trades, masters of none...at somepoint SOMETHING will suffer, and women pounce on that like a starving lion and an antelope
3) women are never satisfied
4) women want a provider out of the bed and a bad boy in the bed...the smart ones marry the provider, the smarter ones dont marry...
5) women are never happy
6)now that men and women both work, men have had to become MORE nurturing...they spend more time cooking, cleaning, laundry, dealing with day to day kids issues more than ever before...hard to be the studly bad boy when your covered in your kids snot and have dish pan hands LOL


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

I like the term, "Integrated man." It sounds better than terms that can also have negative connotations, like, "Chameleon." I've constantly tried to be flexible throughout life in response to what is needed when it is needed. I don't know what personality descriptor that would fall under and frankly don't care.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I now think of being integrated as quite simply, knowing what the hell I'm supposed to, or want to be doing, and how I feel/don't feel about it.

I honestly doubt that I will make the choice to ever marry again. But ... I do leave that possibility open if the right woman were to come along.

But, I do believe in general that if you are married and integrated, you are 'present' in the marriage. Even if you aren't always available or doing the perfect thing. If anyone were to ask you at any given moment about the state of your marital relationship, you should be able to respond honestly and mindfully.

I've made it clear that I fully accept the concepts of 'game' ... not as in scripts, negging, or other distinct PUA stuff, but the emotional transactions that take place in any interpersonal dynamic.

I have simply seen it work far too well, far too often for anyone to EVER again convince me that these things aren't real.

Marriage requires strategy and awareness. And I believe if you are integrated, you can't be too ... 'too'

too passive
too aggressive
too emotional
too smothering
too distant
too needy
too independent
too accommodating

I've seen men post it all of the time. It's about balance. It's a scale. And I agree.

I think being able to recognize what is 'off' is important. I am very curious if many/most men feel they have this skill?

I vividly recall reading a lot of MEM's posts, and how he would interpret, think about, and process many of the both spoken and unspoken emotional transactions he would have with his wife, and others would comment that it 'sounds exhausting'.

Certainly it's great if you can recognize something is off, but whether you choose to act or ignore, surely it's important to be cognizant of what is off, and why it's off.

I think folks with high emotional IQ's see this stuff rather easily. But as a husband or a man, I suppose I'm curious as to whether or not others think this is an important factor in their marriage, or a red herring?

Don't get caught up in her emotional tempest and let her figure it out? Or do you ask what's wrong, and then pry further when she responds with, "Oh, nothing."


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Derivative men are good, too.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

clipclop2 said:


> Derivative men are good, too.


Now see ... I'm just going to presume this has to do with penis size. Because no matter how intelligent we try to be, it always gets brought back to the block and tackle.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

LOL!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Now see ... I'm just going to presume this has to do with penis size. Because no matter how intelligent we try to be, it always gets brought back to the block and tackle.


Or maybe she meant men who work in derivatives trading.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Sorry for the tangent.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I do find it interesting that I can't conceptualize being disrespected by my wife, or any other romantic attachment. I know this has roots in how my mother and father were; he was a very flawed man, who made a lot of mistakes, yet my mother respected that man until the day she died. Disrespect, incessant nagging, emotional manipulation, that stuff just doesn't sit right with me and something inside of me will kill it at the root because my pride just won't allow this behavior. 



Deejo said:


> Don't get caught up in her emotional tempest and let her figure it out? Or do you ask what's wrong, and then pry further when she responds with, "Oh, nothing."


I usually know what's wrong with my wife when she doesn't want me to know, and even often when she doesn't know herself. I never leave it at "oh, nothing" if I _know_ that I know there is more to the story. But this was the case long before we ever married or were even romantically attached, back when we were only friends. She's extremely in tune with me as well, even when I wish she wasn't. 

But this isn't related to my wife. I tend to be pretty intuitive about people in general and many people, some even strangers, often find themselves revealing their inner truths behind the initial "oh nothing". It's definitely not a specific skill I developed in the context of my relationship just to know my baby better.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

clipclop2 said:


> Sorry for the tangent.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

I think of "integrated" as meaning:



* not being alienated from aspects of oneself

* having resolved contradictory parts of oneself, and having fit the pieces into a whole



If one does this right, then it brings:



* comfortableness within for oneself

* immunity to being reshaped by the whims or demands of others

* resiliency to the inevitable hurts and crises in life

* forward progress, as one is no longer being pulled in contradictory directions

* ability to experience guiltless pleasure

* a habit of taking care of ones body and mind, and a certainty of its importance

* an approach towards others that leaves them responsible for their own choices and happiness

* a pattern of honoring commitments

* an openness to being wrong, making mistakes, and learning and atoning and adjusting as required



* not feeling ashamed when your workmates discover you're wearing your wife's fancy frilly silky underthings underneath your trousers while you do your heavy-duty he-man work at the jobsite



Or something like that.



There's a weenie thread?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

That is an outstanding description and definition.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deejo,

I've made two failed attempts to respond to this thread. Finally 


Let's do - Deejo's hierarchy. You'll be the Maslow of integrated men. 

So, I'm proposing that the base of the hierarchy starts with....

1. Faith that the stuff you can't directly control, will somehow turn out ok (emotional stability)
2. Self awareness 
3. Genuine desire to bring out the best in those around you
4. Internal happiness/peace 
5. Determination
6. Reliability





Deejo said:


> I now think of being integrated as quite simply, knowing what the hell I'm supposed to, or want to be doing, and how I feel/don't feel about it.
> 
> I honestly doubt that I will make the choice to ever marry again. But ... I do leave that possibility open if the right woman were to come along.
> 
> ...


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

My control of emotions and ability to handle stressful situations.Also that I take control when no one else will,I do this for my wife but also because I feel the need to do it to feel secure myself.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Deejo,
> So, I'm proposing that the base of the hierarchy starts with....
> 
> 1. Faith that the stuff you can't directly control, will somehow turn out ok (emotional stability)
> ...


Sweet! Can I propose a minor modification? Integrity at the top, instead of reliability?


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

I guess the bothersome part here I have Deejo is the idea that being an Integrated Male will have a result of a ‘good marriage’. They aren’t directly attributable to each other. So take both


MEM11363 said:


> 1. Faith that the stuff you can't directly control, will somehow turn out ok (emotional stability)
> 2. Self awareness
> 3. Genuine desire to bring out the best in those around you
> 4. Internal happiness/peace
> ...


And


PieceOfSky said:


> I think of "integrated" as meaning:
> * not being alienated from aspects of oneself
> * having resolved contradictory parts of oneself, and having fit the pieces into a whole


_Slight disclaimer with MEM’s version and my beliefs. He is listing the ideal ‘default’ attitude. A real IM also embraces the rest of the emotional spectrum like anger, frustration, etc. and deals with it instead of denying those feelings. MEM described a Priest or Jedi… IM’s are men. As such, recognize and accept that dark side too and when to use it._ 

IM is about one’s sense of self and your own comfort level with who that is. The great news is that stuff is always something you can control; yourself. What you don’t like, you can change. And you can adapt and grow.

A relationship is not about yourself. For that matter, the best IM’s recognize life isn’t lived in isolation and what you do and what others do, all have an impact on life of everyone in general. That’s why there is the balance point. It can’t all be about you. Instead it really is more about the impact of you on the world around you by radiating those things out to others.

By no means does that mean those around you including your spouse will see you as what they want you to be.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Racer said:


> I guess the bothersome part here I have Deejo is the idea that being an Integrated Male will have a result of a ‘good marriage’. They aren’t directly attributable to each other. So take both
> 
> And
> 
> ...


My belief is a little different Racer. Being 'Integrated' for me, means that I can clearly be aware if I have a good marriage and good partner, or a not so good marriage and not so good partner, and how I can/do influence any of those outcomes.

I don't think an integrated man will necessarily have a better marriage. But I do believe that an integrated man will be better AT marriage.

He'll also know when it's time to invest, and know when it's time to sell off and start over.

For as engaged and loving a husband as I thought I was, I can look back now and see that I clearly wasn't an 'effective' husband.

I was a good man then. I'm a better man now. And I don't mean a better man for marriage.

Agree about accepting and learning to deal with the dark side. I utterly and completely avoided it for a long, long, time.

So when it 'popped', during the dying days of my marriage I went way overboard. I hurt people ... and I liked it.

Not where I am now, nor would I want to be again.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

I think we are close to the same page. I obviously fail at when to cut bait. It's more of a issue I have that is wholly me taking on challenges. Right reasons, but a near fatalist attitude where I won't accept defeat or walk away to continue enjoying life when I should. Pride is going to kill me. Points for being self-aware? 

Sucks because I see it as both a strength and weakness since it can push me to new levels or be an anchor... Always torn on that one as a character trait.



> Agree about accepting and learning to deal with the dark side. I utterly and completely avoided it for a long, long, time..


Agreed. I see a lot of guys (and girls) filled with rage and anger. But instead of accepting it, working with it, they fight being 'that guy' creating even more internal conflict and anger. So they one day "pop" like you... I did too. Was completely liberating; also liked it. It goes entirely overboard because there is such a reserve built up inside. 

IM's accept the rage and channel it so they can release it without needing to hold onto it allowing it to broil inside. Again, a shortcoming of mine because I know what I should be doing but being a flawed human, don't always do what I should. Points again for accepting and loving my own flawed character? 

So can a IM recognize his shortcomings, know there are 'better ways', yet be just as IM because this 'bad stuff' is really just part of who he is that makes him uniquely and beautifully imperfect? 

My mental candy of 'perfection' is that it's those flaws, that personal brand of insanity, which makes us real and different from each other... and the difference between IM and poser. The poser is trying to convince himself and others that he’s close to ‘perfection’… The IM accepts he is flawed as is everyone else. Then starts flinging poo like the damaged monkey he is... because it's damn fun and he's not worried about revealing his imperfections..


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Integrity - that's good

Perhaps the notion of taking care of others plus reliability - gets us to integrity. 





always_alone said:


> Sweet! Can I propose a minor modification? Integrity at the top, instead of reliability?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: Role of the Integrated Man in Marriage*



MEM11363 said:


> Deejo,
> 
> I've made two failed attempts to respond to this thread. Finally
> 
> ...


MEM, I used to hang my hat on point 3. And is likely the origin of a lot of my 'nice' tendencies.

I have come to terms with best outcomes not necessarily meaning that I need to be nice about it. Setting high expectations and challenging people can be much healthier and beneficial than being just a cheerleader or yes man.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Emotional stability doesn't mean you are a monk.

It does mean that you aren't volatile. It also means that you limit your conduct when you are flooded. 





Racer said:


> I guess the bothersome part here I have Deejo is the idea that being an Integrated Male will have a result of a ‘good marriage’. They aren’t directly attributable to each other. So take both
> 
> And
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bringing out the best in someone - is not the act of a 'nice guy'. 

It is not an easy thing to do. 


QUOTE=Deejo;10180905]MEM, I used to hang my hat on point 3. And is likely the origin of a lot of my 'nice' tendencies.

I have come to terms with best outcomes not necessarily meaning that I need to be nice about it. Setting high expectations and challenging people can be much healthier and beneficial than being just a cheerleader or yes man.[/QUOTE]


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> Bringing out the best in someone - is not the act of a 'nice guy'.


Tell me about it  Sometimes you've got to let them fall down so they can learn how to get back up. Teenage know-it-all sons here  Can't tell you how many times I've said "Well... What did we learn from this?"

My only point with the Jedi stuff is it isn't always bringing out the best. Sometimes, it can be IM to knock them down if you feel it needs to be done. Like dealing with persistent a-holes. You don't want them to be the best a-hole in all the land... So you might knock them down a peg or two back into reality that their poop stinks too. It might result in them reconsidering how they treat you, or it might be escalated into a larger confrontation. The IM can handle either because of that faith in stuff you can't control also means there's no reason to fret about it or the outcome.

Sometimes you turn the other cheek, sometimes you eye-4-eye it, sometimes you bury them. IM's are not limited by 'play nice' rules like a priest. Doesn't mean you are the a-hole though... Most the IM's I see use the stick sparingly.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

OH… And no… I don’t see myself as IM. I’m entirely too concerned about how others perceive me and am chalked full of flaws. My SouthPark character would be Twitch or Butters….


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I have come to terms with best outcomes not necessarily meaning that I need to be nice about it. Setting high expectations and challenging people can be much healthier and beneficial than being just a cheerleader or yes man.


Bringing out the best in people involves a lot more than being nice. Indeed, I'd say that being a cheerleader or "yes man" often brings out the worst in people.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

always_alone said:


> Bringing out the best in people involves a lot more than being nice. Indeed, I'd say that being a cheerleader or "yes man" often brings out the worst in people.



Yes! (Yikes, was "Yes!" really the first thought that came to mind? (Uhm, yes it was.) Hmm...I'm going to have to think about that.)

But, seriously, that's been a hard lesson for me and I am only starting to grasp it. My naive attempts to be kind and supportive failed my wife and I significantly. Inadequate boundaries and limits do not an IM (or IW) make, nor does any other co-dependent-like trait.

What's really awkward for me when I try to own all that is I felt like I was using the best within me -- my inner strength and conviction about what was good in the world and in me and in her -- when I tried to tolerate hurtful behaviors or give her time to sort out the anxieties and hurts she had inside. Yet, my so called "strength" worked against me and her.

...just rambling.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Perhaps the notion of taking care of others plus reliability - gets us to integrity.


Plus a splash of determination, and a few principles thrown in for good measure.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> What's really awkward for me when I try to own all that is I felt like I was using the best within me -- my inner strength and conviction about what was good in the world and in me and in her -- when I tried to tolerate hurtful behaviors or give her time to sort out the anxieties and hurts she had inside. Yet, my so called "strength" worked against me and her.


People will always need time to get through hurts and anxieties. But unconditional support encourages wallowing. Which is never one's best.

(Yes isn't a four-letter word. It just needs to be saved for appropriate moments.)


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Racer said:


> A real IM also embraces the rest of the emotional spectrum like anger, frustration, etc. and deals with it instead of denying those feelings. MEM described a Priest or Jedi… IM’s are men. As such, recognize and accept that dark side too and when to use it.[/I]
> 
> IM is about one’s sense of self and your own comfort level with who that is. The great news is that stuff is always something you can control; yourself. What you don’t like, you can change. And you can adapt and grow.
> 
> ...


Brilliant post.

(in my humble opinion!)


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Integrity... not to be underestimated. I don't know if what I'm about to write offers anything or if it relates to the premise of the thread but that hasn't stopped me before, so here goes. 

The last few years in particular, I've really noticed the way my husband demonstrates and values integrity. With a situation where others would suggest he was done wrong by, he's handled himself with integrity. I've questioned at times too and he's answered that it wasn't about the other person, it was about him, about knowing he'd done the right thing simply because it was the right thing to do. From my perspective, that has emerged as the core of his behavior. The roll-on effect of those actions has actually lead to positive outcomes, naturally. I think we know when someone is behaving with integrity and when they have self-respect, and there's a greater trust that can then be felt with them.

He's started a new job and approached it in a way he's never done before. He's well and truly leading rather than being lead. He's asserting himself while allowing space to learn. The feedback has been that of respect. That is more important to him than being liked. This is different to how he's been in the past. 

While that's related to work, these changes certainly filter to our marriage. Know what I see? A man who can step back and see who he was, knows what he wants to change and has the balls to act on it. He lets go of the outcome in order to grow and attempt something different.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I have a good I.Q. And an even better E.Q. And sometimes it seems like marriage is over thought. I pay attention but I am otherwise simple and unapologetically male.

I am mostly a knuckle dragging barbarian that is soft with Mrs. Conan and hell on anyone who would hurt her or our marriage.

Somehow it has worked for 23 years. I think mostly because we both really wanted it too? All I know is it's beautiful and maybe we are just lucky. We have both been all in since the beginning.

It's late and I am rambling. Take care Deejo. Not sure if I'm awake enough to understand this post but it seemed to strike a chord.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Deejo said:


> I'm curious to know, particularly of the gentlemen that would self-identify as being in 'good marriages' what it is that you have for yourself or do for yourself, either in your conduct, or your own self interest that you believe defines you?
> 
> It may be the thing that your wife loves about you. Or it may be the thing that drives her crazy and she wants to change ... that you simply won't ... ever.
> 
> ...


I read this to my Husband the other day...he said his brain is smoking.... PAUSE.... 

No surprise here.. his answer is ..."MY family".. in his world, that's the way it should be.... saying "that's what's important"...



> I've seen men post it all of the time. It's about balance. It's a scale. And I agree.
> 
> *I think being able to recognize what is 'off' is important. I am very curious if many/most men feel they have this skill?*
> 
> ...


I had to laugh reading this.. I don't think I have EVER said "Oh nothing" when I had something on my mind.. My husband knows me as much as I know myself......he can ALWAYS .... I mean, within minutes tell if I am out of sorts....and there isn't a time that he doesn't seek to know what is wrong, HE ASKS.... the fact that he cares ..genuinely ...allows ME to open up easily/ readily......if I felt it was just words to pacify me.. or he'd ask, and not listen (for instance)...it would be another dynamic for sure.. 

But really.. I am one of those "on the sleeve" types.... this is not too much of an issue because I am generally bubbly and in a good mood.. he went on to put a statistic on that.. at like 85% of the time...adding 10% I am mad at the kids.. and 5% at him... but we always ...always talk whatever it is OUT....we air it , shake it, explore it.. and find a peace we can both live with... neither one of us can stand being at odds with the other.. it's really kinda pathetic .. but yet its GOOD-- as it brings us back together again.. quickly!



> *Heartsbeating said*: Integrity... not to be underestimated. I don't know if what I'm about to write offers anything or if it relates to the premise of the thread but that hasn't stopped me before, so here goes.
> 
> The last few years in particular, I've really noticed the way my husband demonstrates and values integrity. With a situation where others would suggest he was done wrong by, he's handled himself with integrity. I've questioned at times too and he's answered that it wasn't about the other person,* it was about him, about knowing he'd done the right thing simply because it was the right thing to do. From my perspective, that has emerged as the core of his behavior. The roll-on effect of those actions has actually lead to positive outcomes, naturally*. I think we know when someone is behaving with integrity and when they have self-respect, and there's a greater trust that can then be felt with them.


The bolded.. this is HOW it works.. naturally.. so true... what a great example! 

Ya know.. when My H was in high school.... he looked at himself as scrawny, didn't have a whole lot going for himself...but one thing he ALWAYS had.. was integrity.. 

And I've seen it through the years.. every person that has ever worked with him, I'd hear it in their exchanges...or they'd even say it -how much they Enjoyed working with him...he's not a Hard guy with attitude.. but he'll do the right thing in every situation.....and people trust him.. he's just one of those.. if he gives his word... you can count on it... 

So yeah.. Iv'e seen it.. just living THIS way.. treating others Fair , admitting your mistakes outright...self awareness.. it can't help but come back around...

We all look for these qualities in people...we want to know people ARE what they portray....though I think we too often get side tracked and gravitate more to who is successful , or just "excitement" ....over the lasting qualities that are the greatest foundation for healthy relationships.. whether in a work setting, friendships , or in our marriages...but in the long run, like the tortious and the hare.... people will give that back to you..to how you have treated them....

Our word should mean something... Integrity is the foundation of all good things.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I am mostly a knuckle dragging barbarian that is soft with Mrs. Conan and hell on anyone who would hurt her or our marriage.


:allhail:


:smthumbup:



eh...if more men were like you!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I can tell if something is OFF with M2 within a couple seconds. 

And like SA, she isn't shy when asked. 





SimplyAmorous said:


> I read this to my Husband the other day...he said his brain is smoking.... PAUSE....
> 
> No surprise here.. his answer is ..."MY family".. in his world, that's the way it should be.... saying "that's what's important"...
> 
> ...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Had a date last night with a female friend. We dated over 2 years ago. We've pretty much friend-zoned one another. 

She is just off a long term relationship where marriage had been discussed. She's grieving. She's hurt.

Wonderful lady to talk to. We talked at length about how easily people can misinterpret relationship speak.

She said to me that she until recently, had always believed when a man said he wasn't looking for a relationship, that what he was really saying was, "I really don't know what I want, and I'm afraid of commitment."

I smiled, and asked, "Still believe that's true?"

She said, "No. Depends on the man. Some men are being absolutely honest and up-front about what they want and what they don't want, and we (I) just choose not to listen."


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Deejo said:


> I smiled, and asked, "Still believe that's true?"
> 
> She said, "No. Depends on the man. Some men are being absolutely honest and up-front about what they want and what they don't want, and we (I) just choose not to listen."


This reminded me of a thought I had about myself and one I teach my kids:

I am work in progress, not a finished product.

Learning and growing are something I strive for all the time. I want to make positive changes from my experiences, even when they end in bad results.

Your friend above did that. It is something I strive for as well.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Tall Average Guy said:


> This reminded me of a thought I had about myself and one I teach my kids:
> 
> I am work in progress, not a finished product.
> 
> ...


She's a great lady. We actually broke up over our beliefs about marriage. I respected her view. But there was no way I was going to come around to her view. I don't date with the 'goal' of marriage.

If she is serious with someone, that is where she wants it to go.

If I'm serious with someone, I want it to go where it's supposed to. And sometimes, that is to a conclusion of the relationship.

I don't qualify a relationship as a failure regardless of how long it lasts or if we end up with vows.

She thought I was being a bastard at the time. But she actually told me that she respected the fact that my view hasn't changed, and reiterated that hers had not either. For this reason ... we remain friends only.

That and I know she remains hopeful that her man may return.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> I can tell if something is OFF with M2 within a couple seconds.
> 
> And like SA, she isn't shy when asked.


A lot of men aren't _that_ observant and instead ,they always get caught in silly arguments about peripheral issues which in turn leads to her feeling misunderstood and ultimately, resentment.

I don't mean that a man is supposed to be able to " read her mind" but this is your woman, at least you are supposed to know her idiosyncrasies , and take a more nuanced approach.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Caribbean,
I know - at a glance - how happy/unhappy M2 is. 

If she's not happy, I typically do NOT know why she is unhappy. 

So - my reaction is - soft - and I radiate empathy.

This lets M2 know that I have noticed she is unhappy and that I feel bad for her. I don't interview/interrogate her. She knows I want to help her feel better. And is grateful that I'm not demanding an explanation. 

I ask: Are you ok? And sometimes inquire: is there anything I can do for you? 

That's it. She can talk, or not talk. That's up to her. 

The furthest I'll go is to say: 

I'm sorry that you've had: A day

The difference between feeling protective and feeling anxious is vast. Because it's the difference between the situation being:
- all about her versus
- all about you




Caribbean Man said:


> A lot of men are _that_ observant and instead ,they always get caught in silly arguments about peripheral issues which in turn leads to her feeling misunderstood and ultimately, resentment.
> 
> I don't mean that a man is supposed to be able to " read her mind" but this is your woman, at least you are supposed to know her idiosyncrasies , and take a more nuanced approach.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

My husband is aware of my nuisances too. Even if we're just in the car together, music playing, and I start nutting something out in my own mind, he'll ask how I'm doing. How does he know that I was just thinking through something? And yet, he's not a mind reader, so he doesn't know what's up.

I'm forthcoming with what I'm thinking about or concerns etc. In the past at times I've been inclined to skim the surface of my thoughts. Now I'll scrape down to the core of it with him. It's a more vulnerable state. The trust and care I feel with him has me willingly opening up - as well as the awareness I've gained that I don't need to retreat into my own mind and work it out first.

MEM I like that you wrote she can talk or not and that's up to her - not feeling responsible for her yet demonstrating care.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> So yeah.. Iv'e seen it.. just living THIS way.. treating others Fair , admitting your mistakes outright...self awareness.. it can't help but come back around...


Agreed. To add to this, my husband's approach of 'doing the right thing as it's the right thing to do' is for himself first and there's a sliding scale with this - as with most things. He will be fair to himself. It's not a selfless way of being and it's not for someone else's approval.


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## thumbper (Sep 11, 2014)

I would say that for many years (married 25+ years now) I was defined as being steady, reliable, hard working, even tempered, caring, loving father and provider. Let me add pretty svelt and attractive if may say. Typical mr. Nice guy. Now however and thznks to TAM, this very type of thread and the term "integrated male", I look at the words above and I now see:
Routine, boring, no fun, unexiting, pussey, pussey whipped and emotional vacume. Oh yeah, and not so svelt anymore.

I am stubborn, I struggle with change and my marriage is on the rocks because of it. I want to change and we have discussed the issues often, I keep settling back in to same behaviors. I think my wife would say I have improved in some areas but not enough.

I am beginning to wonder if I am capable of changing 56 years of male programing. 
Help


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> *The difference between feeling protective and feeling anxious is vast. Because it's the difference between the situation being:
> - all about her versus
> - all about you*


I'm sorry that I didn't see this post ^^^ before!

But yes, you are 100% correct.

I confess that sometimes I find myself mixing up the two.

- All about her.
- All about me.

Knowing the difference, or being willing to admit when it's all about me takes brutal honesty.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

I don't make any attempts at trying to be somebody I am not. My wife would describe me as stoic with very little patience for nonsense (probably why most TAM humor flies over my head) but still willing to give the shirt off of my back to a stranger in need. I would say those are the qualities she saw when she married me and still love me for the same. 

On that same note, I sometimes take my lack of patience to the extreme which I know she would like to see me change, especially with our sons. In my younger years, my lack of patience would often turn to bitter anger, but over time I have learned to temper it a bit. 

In so far as changing the oil, my wife drives an all electric car . I do all that I can to keep up with fixing the major appliance and dealing with my brokanics sons. I don't do this to impress my wife as much as I don't want to spend money on a service I know I can do better at than some ass crack lackey. 

I love sports and playing my music, working out and supporting my youngest son in his sports endeavors along with a dedicated music studio in my house. My wife could take or leave both of them. These are all about my own interest as she has hers. We have enough in common and secure enough in our relationship that we don't have to do everything together. She does exercise, more often than not separate from me. I can times get carried away; think drill instructor.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

thumbper said:


> I would say that for many years (married 25+ years now) I was defined as being steady, reliable, hard working, even tempered, caring, loving father and provider. Let me add pretty svelt and attractive if may say. Typical mr. Nice guy. Now however and thznks to TAM, this very type of thread and the term "integrated male", I look at the words above and I now see:
> Routine, boring, no fun, unexiting, pussey, pussey whipped and emotional vacume. Oh yeah, and not so svelt anymore.
> 
> I am stubborn, I struggle with change and my marriage is on the rocks because of it. I want to change and we have discussed the issues often, I keep settling back in to same behaviors. I think my wife would say I have improved in some areas but not enough.
> ...


You have improved in many areas and I haven't always been as vociferous in noting those positive changes as I have in the need for them.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Did I mention that despite the fact that it should never be the goal of the exercise, there are few things more rewarding than the acknowledgement of those we love and hold dear?

It's never ever too late to start the journey. And the journey is always worthwhile.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

As I've been reading this thread it seems like the confidence to set boundaries on a partner's behavior _and stick to them_ is something that I've seen many men struggle with here on TAM.

Is that the same thing as having self-respect? Perhaps. 

Its not uncommon for men to default to "give her what she wants and hope that she does the same for me." Doing so satisfies perceived obligations to be the "gentleman," and allows for a bit of laziness when it comes to being responsible for voicing his own needs and following through. 

It can be uncomfortable to say "no" to someone you're married to.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> It can be uncomfortable to say "no" to someone you're married to.


Mostly when they're offering you chocolate!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: Role of the Integrated Man in Marriage*



GettingIt said:


> As I've been reading this thread it seems like the confidence to set boundaries on a partner's behavior _and stick to them_ is something that I've seen many men struggle with here on TAM.
> 
> Is that the same thing as having self-respect? Perhaps.
> 
> ...


If sticking to those boundaries means you lose your house, 30% to 50% of your income, access to your children, the life you identify with, and the woman you love, there's a lot more at stake than confidence. 

However, once you do find that place, survive and flourish in the face of those things that you believed would crush you; you don't go back. I daresay you can't.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Deejo said:


> If sticking to those boundaries means you lose your house, 30% to 50% of your income, access to your children, the life you identify with, and the woman you love, there's a lot more at stake than confidence.


Yes, but that place is usually reached because boundaries weren't set and enforced from day one. Men who have no trouble setting boundaries early on tend to set a tone for expectations about his treatment in the marriage. 

But I understand your point--sometimes the descent is so slow and gradual that when a man reaches his limit, the choice to set a boundary is not as cut and dried as "just do it."


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

thumbper said:


> I would say that for many years (married 25+ years now) I was defined as being steady, reliable, hard working, even tempered, caring, loving father and provider. Let me add pretty svelt and attractive if may say. Typical mr. Nice guy. Now however and thznks to TAM, this very type of thread and the term "integrated male", I look at the words above and I now see:
> Routine, boring, no fun, unexiting, pussey, pussey whipped and emotional vacume. Oh yeah, and not so svelt anymore.
> 
> *I am stubborn, I struggle with change and my marriage is on the rocks because of it. I want to change and we have discussed the issues often, I keep settling back in to same behaviors. I think my wife would say I have improved in some areas but not enough.
> ...


I don't know what changes you are hoping to make. Some changes are harder than other. But, people CAN make positive changes. Most don't bother or want to. Sounds like you do.

I was "stuck" being the same mal-adapted me for decades, but, something pushed me to make some changes "or else", and I feel like I am finally ratcheting some improvements -- for myself -- after hitting a very deep low-point about a year and a half ago. I have a good friend, in real life, that in his mid-thirties seems to be gaining traction as well, after some very difficult years.

I'm close enough in age to you I'd say age has nothing to do with it. It seems you are here with a desire to change, and are in touch with what you have to lose. If you have enough courage to look at yourself honestly and take actions that might be uncomfortable at first, then you've got a way better chance than most. 

If I am reading between the lines correctly, you've also got a really caring and smart lady on your side. If that's the case, even better.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> As I've been reading this thread it seems like the confidence to set boundaries on a partner's behavior _and stick to them_ is something that I've seen many men struggle with here on TAM.
> 
> *Is that the same thing as having self-respect?* Perhaps.


I struggled with boundaries in my relationship with my wife for about twenty years. The last year and a half, I have been working on it, and I think it is starting to bear fruit. I'm pretty confident I'll never live my life that way from here on out.

I don't think the issue is having self-respect. I think the issue is loving oneself. If I had loved myself, and loved myself well, I wouldn't have accepted what I had accepted.

I think self-respect is something that can be compartmentalized and misguided. I cannot think of a time in my life where I did not respect my character, my integrity, my compassion, my work ethic. When it came to relationships (uhm, lack thereof) with women, yes, I felt like a fool, an ignorant one, and so there was -- in that compartment -- a lack of self-respect. 

Yet, it is important to me to say I floundered in ignorance -- ignorance of what "a man" should be able to handle; some of the most damaging things I did to myself were driven by a misguided notion of what it meant to be a respectable man (don't leave someone that is hurting, and needs a shoulder to cry on; be a knight in shining armor, etc.); don't just "use" a woman for "good times" and dump her when the going gets rough.

There were times, before marriage, when thoughts of leaving were squelched by fear I'd be taking "the easy way out", which would have (then) caused some loss of self-respect (If I knew then, what I know now.... )

I lacked knowledge, and experience. I also lacked conviction that it's OK to look out for me, and if I'm not getting what I want and deserve, then it is right an proper to honor oneself and leave.



> Its not uncommon for men to default to "give her what she wants and hope that she does the same for me." Doing so satisfies perceived obligations to be the "gentleman," and allows for a bit of laziness when it comes to being responsible for voicing his own needs and following through.
> 
> It can be uncomfortable to say "no" to someone you're married to.


I don't think laziness is the only, or even the most common, enabler to silencing one's needs. If I had to guess, "fear" and naivete play a great role in most cases,. Both did in mine.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

*Re: Re: Role of the Integrated Man in Marriage*



GettingIt said:


> As I've been reading this thread it seems like the confidence to set boundaries on a partner's behavior _and stick to them_ is something that I've seen many men struggle with here on TAM.
> 
> Is that the same thing as having self-respect? Perhaps.
> 
> ...


That is falling back into covert contracts.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

*Re: Re: Role of the Integrated Man in Marriage*



Deejo said:


> If sticking to those boundaries means you lose your house, 30% to 50% of your income, access to your children, the life you identify with, and the woman you love, there's a lot more at stake than confidence.
> 
> However, once you do find that place, survive and flourish in the face of those things that you believed would crush you; you don't go back. I daresay you can't.


This. In the end you risk it all because you realize life can be so much more than living with someone who will not tolerate the boundaries that come with loving and respecting yourself.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> I struggled with boundaries in my relationship with my wife for about twenty years. The last year and a half, I have been working on it, and I think it is starting to bear fruit. I'm pretty confident I'll never live my life that way from here on out.
> 
> I don't think the issue is having self-respect. I think the issue is loving oneself. If I had loved myself, and loved myself well, I wouldn't have accepted what I had accepted.
> 
> ...


My husband says pretty much these same things when we discuss when went wrong with our marriage for the first ten years. I'm curious though--have you talked specifically with your wife about these feelings? 

I struggle with quite a range of emotions when I think about the years of intimacy we lost--but at the end of the day I don't think it's anyone's fault. We were caught up (trapped) in a complex interplay of assumptions made about the other person and behavior designed to protect ourselves from hurt and rejection. In short, we spent those years putting up walls to prevent one another from knowing how we each REALLY felt, either because we thought it was what we "should" do with someone we love, or because we didn't trust the other person to still love us once we showed our true selves.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I I think being able to recognize what is 'off' is important. I am very curious if many/most men feel they have this skill?


I'm generally almost too good at reading the various shifts in my wife's emotions. It's not uncommon for me to know something is "off" before she even processes it.

This is partially due to the years of closeness we've had since we were barely adolescents, but it's also just a general life gift I have; I'm able to read even subtle shifts in behavior in people in general.

While a great asset, it's caused issues in our marriage in the past. Too much me noticing, her denying or not really knowing what was wrong, and me filling in the blanks until one of my observations clicked.

At some point it became apparent that she wasn't going to ever get stronger at introspective thinking if I kept answering for her. So a few years ago I largely stopped. If something is "off" I'll ask, and ask again if she says "nothing" or "IDK", but instead of analyzing the situation completely I'll ask questions that have her putting the pieces together instead of me.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> My husband says pretty much these same things when we discuss when went wrong with our marriage for the first ten years. I'm curious though--have you talked specifically with your wife about these feelings?
> 
> I struggle with quite a range of emotions when I think about the years of intimacy we lost--but at the end of the day I don't think it's anyone's fault. We were caught up (trapped) in a complex interplay of assumptions made about the other person and behavior designed to protect ourselves from hurt and rejection. In short, we spent those years putting up walls to prevent one another from knowing how we each REALLY felt, either because we thought it was what we "should" do with someone we love, or because we didn't trust the other person to still love us once we showed our true selves.



Whenever I have talked to her about struggles I've had in our relationship, even when trying to underscore how my less-than-healthy boundary-less choices undercut our marriage, it seems she hears only: blame, blame, blame.

I have tried. No matter how delicately I have attempted to communicate about the past, her defenses kick in and she tries to shift focus -- and if I am not careful, I find myself trying to defend the notion that I indeed truly loved her then and that there were indeed good times.

When I learned her view was that I "checked out" a long time ago for no apparent reason (other than, I guess, I'm a ass), I felt the need to clue her in to how life has been for me. (That she was clueless surprised me. Live and learn.) I have made my case a few times now, only to hear later from her that "all that help you gave me with the kids when they were little was condescending....instead what you should have been doing was cleaning the house." WTF?

It is draining. If I am not at my best, mental clarity-wise, it can devolve into me ardently defending the fact that "back then" I truly loved her despite her claims to the otherwise, and I can enumerate many obvious signs that I did (even recent signs). Once, even my MC chipped in and tried to help rescue me from her revisionist assertions; when I saw her (MC) doing it, I thought "Thanks...and it's about time! But, something is f'cked up when this is how we spend our time, trying so hard just to get to an approximation of past reality that does not justify her victimhood status." It's crazy making.

I can accept the lost years-gone-by. I have accepted them. I too can see them in their true context -- neither of us were born knowing how to do this, each of us was carrying our own baggage from childhood and past relationship experiences (or lack thereof), each of us had fears and blind spots.

I can forgive myself. I can forgive her. I can take a punch (non-physical). I can let water under the bridge continue on its journey. Unfortunately, I cannot make her open to love, or make loving me worth the risk to her.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> Whenever I have talked to her about struggles I've had in our relationship, even when trying to underscore how my less-than-healthy boundary-less choices undercut our marriage, it seems she hears only: blame, blame, blame.
> 
> I have tried. No matter how delicately I have attempted to communicate about the past, her defenses kick in and she tries to shift focus -- and if I am not careful, I find myself trying to defend the notion that I indeed truly loved her then and that there were indeed good times.
> 
> ...


She sounds like she's carrying so much resentment. I know I was. 

I wish I had some advice for you--I recognize the marriage you describe very well. I don't think you are getting through to her; she just doesn't trust you enough emotionally to really listen and stop defending her pride. 

I hope you two can turn things around while you still have the capacity to forgive.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> Whenever I have talked to her about struggles I've had in our relationship, even when trying to underscore how my less-than-healthy boundary-less choices undercut our marriage, it seems she hears only: blame, blame, blame.
> 
> I have tried. No matter how delicately I have attempted to communicate about the past, her defenses kick in and she tries to shift focus -- and if I am not careful, I find myself trying to defend the notion that I indeed truly loved her then and that there were indeed good times.
> 
> ...


So sorry Sky. 

I recognize the dynamic you describe. It's really hard to revisit all the past mistakes without some sort of agreement that it's being done as an exercise in forensic analysis or something. It's too easy to get bogged down being angry and resentful which keeps the important work of identifying what went wrong on both of your parts from ever happening.

She just has to decide if she wants to move forward or not. She can't hang onto the past (the resentment and anger) if she wants to move forward. And if she doesn't want to move forward then it seems you're sticking around as the punishing bag du jour. 

But you know my thoughts on this.

BTW, yes you read between the lines correctly BUT you neglected to add brilliantly artistic with sharpie markers!


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## thumbper (Sep 11, 2014)

PieceOfSky said:


> I don't know what changes you are hoping to make. Some changes are harder than other. But, people CAN make positive changes. Most don't bother or want to. Sounds like you do.
> 
> I was "stuck" being the same mal-adapted me for decades, but, something pushed me to make some changes "or else", and I feel like I am finally ratcheting some improvements -- for myself -- after hitting a very deep low-point about a year and a half ago. I have a good friend, in real life, that in his mid-thirties seems to be gaining traction as well, after some very difficult years.
> 
> ...


PieceofSky....Thanks for the encouragement, it means alot coming from someone who has been there. And yes she is caring and smart, I am very fortunate to have her.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Piece,

There is this thing I do every once in a while that works better than everything else in this type situation. 

If pressed, I'd label it the: All about you, full throttle - strategy

Full disclosure: mindset matters more than wording

When I have used this, it was completely sincere. I wasn't angry. Wasn't hurt. Just determined. 

My wording was something like this
------
Seems like despite my best efforts I've somehow fallen far short of the mark. You deserve to be with someone who treats you the way you want to be treated. You've made it clear that isn't me. 

Let me know how you want to handle the logistics and talking to the kids. 

------

But you only say that if you are completely ok with things abruptly ending. I was. Turned out M2 very much wasn't. 






PieceOfSky said:


> Whenever I have talked to her about struggles I've had in our relationship, even when trying to underscore how my less-than-healthy boundary-less choices undercut our marriage, it seems she hears only: blame, blame, blame.
> 
> I have tried. No matter how delicately I have attempted to communicate about the past, her defenses kick in and she tries to shift focus -- and if I am not careful, I find myself trying to defend the notion that I indeed truly loved her then and that there were indeed good times.
> 
> ...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

You got to know when to hold em
Know when to fold em
Know when to walk away
Know when to run...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

So, for the new year I'm resurrecting an old thread.

This has been on my mind a lot lately.

No doubt, because I find myself once again thrown into the breach of love and commitment.

Ever since finding my way here nearly seven years ago, watching my marriage deteriorate, feeling emotionally abandoned, neglected, hurt, lost, frustrated, confused ...

if you have been there, you don't need me to describe it.

The emphasis I often try to convey, is that there is another side to that life experience. 

You do not, you cannot, stay neglected, hurt, lost, frustrated, confused, fearful or angry. 

You can feel those things. You can express those things. Hopefully none of them are words that you would want to use for yourself, or through the lens of those close to you, be used to define you as a man.

So whether you are currently on the journey, or currently feel lost in the wildfire of your old life burning around you.

What do you intend to do differently this year that will impact you and those closest to you in a healthy positive way that will help those around you grow, and yourself to flourish?

I'm looking forward to practicing what I've been preaching.

I have someone who loves me. Will be curious to see how that equation looks on 12/30/15.

My kids are doing very well. Going away with them in April. Lots of talking, teaching, learning and role-modeling. Lots of bad food and laughs too, no doubt.

Taught them how to make a grilled cheese sandwich a few weeks ago. Everything from medium heat, handle turned in, to how to spread the butter across the bread without tearing it all up. 

Taught my son how to wash. Yup. You got that right. He's 12. And often, he smells like a carcass. He is oblivious to this because he can't smell it. We watched these (which made the whole thing more intriguing and funny) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCl5uyn5K7k&index=23&list=RDHq2SlCja3zo
and then literally talked about how to wash, pits, groin, butt, feet.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Deejo, I may not challenge you but I can't help but be a cheerleader to your recent post of practicing what you preach. It's all about the actions, after all. It's great to hear you sounding like you're in a contented place with things to look forward to.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

You are a wonderful woman.

Do remind your husband of that fact on occasion.

Thank you.

Especially with my children, sometimes it appears to be the smallest of things that have the biggest impact. There are times when my daughter looks at me, and it's all of the motivation I need to be a good father and a good man.

But as someone stated earlier, I am, we are, all works in progress.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Deejo said:


> What do you intend to do differently this year that will impact you and those closest to you in a healthy positive way that will help those around you grow, and yourself to flourish?


My husband and I challenge one another. We also get to the heart of the matter much quicker now than we ever have before. 'Better out than in' has become his motto. Expectations are expressed clearly and discussed as needed. We do have disagreements - we rarely did in the past. 

He's learning a lot about our land and the seasonal timing of things. He's really on top of what's needed for the vision for our home - either doing work himself or researching and talking to the local community to understand what it means to live here. This is for his own development, for the love of our home together, and for the value we can add to the property, and is an easy way to meet others in the community. Recently he looked at learning carpentry skills. This will be on the horizon for him. As well as looking to help within the community - but like our land, all these things also have a timing to them.

We just completed a small home-project together. It's great to stand back and see the end result we achieved. And working together in that way is great for bonding too. Sometimes we get on each others last nerve too, haha. For the first time, I'm learning to use power tools with his help - he largely encourages this as he wants me to feel more empowered this way. And I teach him that a cup of tea midway really is that important. 

He'll work-out with me over the next year. Living and eating well are important to him. Friendships are also something he holds dear and he invests in maintaining and building those friendships. This is something he has placed as a priority over the last couple of years and now he has regular catch-ups with his buddies, and he feels it helps to keep his perspective and interests more dynamic. That's where he's at in his life at the moment. 

Much of this is different to who he was a few years ago; and to where we were together.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Deejo said:


> You are a wonderful woman.
> 
> Do remind your husband of that fact on occasion.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the compliment.

There'd be no journey or learning if we had it all sussed. I was taking notes on how to make a grilled cheese sandwich. Whatever the coming year brings, I trust that you'll take the lessons in your stride.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Deejo said:


> You do not, you cannot, stay neglected, hurt, lost, frustrated, confused, fearful or angry.
> 
> You can feel those things. You can express those things. Hopefully none of them are words that you would want to use for yourself, or through the lens of those close to you, be used to define you as a man.


I'll be honest, this thread kind of turned me off at first. I was, and still am feeling some of those things, and I felt the implication was (wrongly I'm sure, but there it is) that the "integrated man" incorporates some kind of emotional kevlar that I'm not privy to.

My first reaction was "to hell with your integration, just let me feel my hurt".

My resolution is to try to move past some of that this year. If not by improving myself and my situation, then at least by finding a few scraps of that kevlar.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Fozzy said:


> I'll be honest, this thread kind of turned me off at first. I was, and still am feeling some of those things, and I felt the implication was (wrongly I'm sure, but there it is) that the "integrated man" incorporates some kind of emotional kevlar that I'm not privy to.
> 
> My first reaction was "to hell with your integration, just let me feel my hurt".
> 
> My resolution is to try to move past some of that this year. If not by improving myself and my situation, then at least by finding a few scraps of that kevlar.


Here is my bad analogy; it's like vomiting. 

You need to do it ... in order to feel better. It is the unmistakeable and unavoidable way of your body telling you it needs to get rid of 'stuff'.

I'll never say, "Don't feel."

I will say, "Be mindful of how you feel, and what it means for your healing and growth."


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> I'll be honest, this thread kind of turned me off at first. I was, and still am feeling some of those things, and I felt the implication was (wrongly I'm sure, but there it is) that the "integrated man" incorporates some kind of emotional kevlar that I'm not privy to.
> 
> My first reaction was "to hell with your integration, just let me feel my hurt".
> 
> *My resolution is to try to move past some of that this year. If not by improving myself and my situation, then at least by finding a few scraps of that kevlar.*



Wishing you the very best on your resolution Fozzy.

Forget about the Kevlar though. Improving yourself and your sitch will significantly decrease the need for Kevlar.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Deejo said:


> You do not, you cannot, stay neglected, hurt, lost, frustrated, confused, fearful or angry.
> 
> You can feel those things. You can express those things. Hopefully none of them are words that you would want to use for yourself, or through the lens of those close to you, be used to define you as a man.
> 
> ...


Interesting thing about feelings--when you attend to them properly (I agree with Heartsbeating's husband: "better out than in") they tend to lose their power to affect your behavior negatively. 

And that is what I will continue to work on in the new year--to allow my husband to know my feelings, and trust that he can handle them as _my feelings_, not as an indication of how he should feel about himself, or a demand that he change his behavior. The more I've been able to express myself to him--even the stuff that I feel makes me seem petty, or b*tchy, or demanding--the more I realize that it's okay to just feel sometimes without apology, without hiding, without wishing for kevlar. 

When I can lay in his arms and tell him, even almost two years into our new and improved dynamic, that I still trigger when he stays up late after I've gone to bed, and that the anxiety is crushing, and that it's all I can do not to have a melt down . . . and when he listens and soothes me and is sympathetic but does not give any indication that he judges me or that he's going to change his behavior . . . it's a gift beyond measure. Why? Because when I've purged the feeling by sharing it with him, it looses its power to cause resentment. I know I'll trigger again--but I've got the secret weapon, and I just don't dread it like I used to. 

Congratulations on love, Deejo. It's a great way to start a new year. Keep us updated. 

Happy New Year, TAM.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

"What do you intend to do differently this year that will impact you and those closest to you in a healthy positive way that will help those around you grow, and yourself to flourish?"

I am not going to do anything differently this year than I have been for the past 6-8 months. 

More just a refinement of my process/outlook. I realize that a lot of this stuff sounds pretty new age and slippery, but to me I really do feel the effects of this and I feel a lot better because of it.

The mindfulness stuff is cumulative and builds like physical strength the more you practice it.

1. Learning to see myself to the degree that I eliminate more and more knee jerk reactions and turn more and more things into fully conscious decisions. 

2. Consciously base all decisions and actions on my own personal values and goals, not on expectations or perceived expectations of others. 

3. Abandon any belief that I need to justify my standards to anyone else. For this one, I need to be supremely confident that I hold myself to the highest standard of all. When I feel confident I am doing this, the first part of this point flows naturally. 

4. Getting better at separating past situations from present, separating future expectations from present. This is necessary to manage resentment that may cloud my assessment of any present situation. 

5. Getting better at seeing when my self control is failing and finding exits from unproductive interactions that allow me to regroup from a position of strength.

6. Getting f-ing ripped.

7. Have fun.

8. Surf more.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

That's a great list. #3 is big. #6 is a great lifestyle reward, and validating as others take note. I write that as I sit here eating waffles with butter, syrup and bacon.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> Interesting thing about feelings--when you attend to them properly (I agree with Heartsbeating's husband: "better out than in") they tend to lose their power to affect your behavior negatively.


Absolutely agree.

With the exception of spiders. We have moved from the city to a place where nature is all around us. After moving in, hubs said he felt I ought to face my fear of them. He wants me to feel more comfortable living here and was admittedly finding it a bit annoying. No problem. I can face this. After he dealt with the first big spider (size of my hand), I decided I'm tough, I can do this. He favors putting them outside. Yes, even the big ones. I watched clips online, read about them, tried to tell myself they are good to have around and they aren't deadly or anything major to fear. I stepped out into the hallway the other night and there was one on the wall. I froze, my blood went cold. I told myself to move forward. It ran. I let out a yell and the dog came running with a sleepy, naked husband right behind him - both at the rescue. 

He's still taking care of the spiders for me. I've no idea how to get over the fear. Rationally, I get it. When I see one though, it's another story. I told hubs, sorry, I'm terrified of spiders. He reassured me that they don't like the smell of humans, particularly when we sleep and he's right there so I have nothing to worry about ......(no need to interject, allow me this delusion). I tried but I have my limitations. 



GettingIt said:


> And that is what I will continue to work on in the new year--to allow my husband to know my feelings, and trust that he can handle them as _my feelings_, not as an indication of how he should feel about himself, or a demand that he change his behavior. The more I've been able to express myself to him--even the stuff that I feel makes me seem petty, or b*tchy, or demanding--the more I realize that it's okay to just feel sometimes without apology, without hiding, without wishing for kevlar.


Well said and I relate to this. This is something I'm continuing to learn/do more of as well. It's actually helped me gain a better understanding of him as a result.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Not sure if I understand OP.

First you talk about current day labels, then you go off to try to define new labels?

There is way too many variety of men/women to really put your finger on one thing. Also even within one person there is all kinds of variables. 

There is TONS of stuff that goes into a marriage and successful relationship.

I like to focus on 3 C's before digging deeper into other things (and yes, the list is long).

Commitment 
Companionship
Compromise

Successful marriage needs all 3.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Not really.

I asked a question.

How do you define yourself. How would your wife define you? Your children? Your friends, colleagues? 

And do those definitions align with how you see yourself?


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