# Why men are threatened by smart women



## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Men May Like The Idea Of A Smart Woman, But They Don't Want To Date One

Why men are threatened by smart women - MarketWatch

I find this true. While not brilliant, in my group of men based on my 'attraction score' seen referenced on these boards, I have found men threatened or feel emasculated by my knowledge. Maybe it's all in the way I present myself. But that's the point of the study. Do I need to "dumb" myself down to be found attractive? And isn't that the whole point of dating - to be yourself and find that person who meshes with the REAL you, not just the you that has been found more appealing? For instance I don't want a man who just uses good manners, refrains from streaks of F-bombs and withholds his gaseous emissions during the dating period - whatever is represented should be what I get for the entire relationship. No bait-and-switch.

Opinions? Experiences? Most men here say this kind of man is insecure. Apparently there are a LOT of insecure men.


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## Dude007 (Jun 22, 2015)

I can't stand dumb women. I hate talking to dumb women. I'm not attracted to dumb women. I like really smart women, more common sense(street smarts) than a book worm. DUDE


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

I agree that bait and switch is wrong for either person to do.

As for me, I have no problems with smart women; in fact, almost all of my relationships have been with smart women, including one I met at a Mensa meeting. :surprise:

My xw had a Ph. D., although it was in Early Childhood Development and not a hard science. But her intelligence wasn't the problem; her attitude was.

My current wife is a retired RN who is also quite intelligent.

However, I've also never had a relationship with a woman who is smarter than I am, so maybe that *would* bother me; it's hard to say in the abstract.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

FWIW,
It is possible to be scared of and attracted to the same person. I find your intelligence attractive. I'm also frequently frightened by you.

I've got to come back and temper this. I'm pretty sure that somewhere I've posted what happened to a friend of a friend. They married, he went to work and put up the money that made it possible for her to continue her education. When she graduated her Mother started to work to break the marriage. She finally convinced her Daughter that she deserved better than this uneducated laborer that she married. Now should he have encouraged her to continue her education? Was it the education that caused them to be unequally yoked? Or was it really just a MIL who never liked him to start with? 

Guys like to be solvers. They love to be needed. But being smarter isn't the only way to be valuable in the relationship. With the right set of attitudes a husband can honor and respect his wife and lean on her strengths, while still being a strength for her that she can honor and respect. Equally yoked does not mean identical. Sure I can out Math my wife. Mostly that leads me to over shopping. She gets to the deal much more quickly. We work together. She handles the people, I handle the things, it works.


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## Bam-bam (Sep 24, 2015)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Men May Like The Idea Of A Smart Woman, But They Don't Want To Date One
> 
> Why men are threatened by smart women - MarketWatch
> 
> ...


I didnt read the article yet but id like to. ...but i wanted to chime in with my knee jerk reaction. I dated a very smart woman once and must admit that I felt insecure. My reasons for my insecurity were because I felt as though my level of intelligence wasn't up to her standards. I found her intelligence VERY attractive by the way. ...VERY attractive. I just worried that she was intellectually out of my league. I was honest with her about that. She reassured me and that helped. For me, I would personally LOVE to be with a smart woman. The key for me though, personally, is that she never gIves me the vibe that I'm dumb. Don't get me wrong, I'm no dummy, but I'm not a genius either. I would need to feel comfortable with being able to tell her when I have no idea what she's talking about. I had that going on with this woman I dated. I had to get comfortable with the fact that I had a lot to learn from her. I liked that she could teach me so much. I loved it. She was always very good at making me comfortable with not knowing certain things. That helped a lot. I did worry that she would eventually feel that she would rather be with someone smarter. I think that's a worry for everyone regardless of gender. I personally feel that we all want to feel like we are kind of equally matched intellectually with our partner. That's just my opinion. 

Anyway though, I agree with you whole heartedly. Be yourself. Screw whatever that article says. Blanket statements about "what men / women want" are unreliable because, at best, they only represent the most commonly desired traits. I am a firm believer in finding that one person that appreciates you for you. Rather than looking at it as something that may possibly deter many men, I suggest looking at it as the thing that will attract that one man. The man you ultimately want to be with. I'd suggest viewing your intelligence as a filter for you to weed out anyone unsuitable for you. Men like what they like. Some like intelligence some don't. Find one that likes you for you.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
It would be interesting to see how men react to a smarter women as opposed to a woman that they are told scored higher on an intelligence test. It might not be the same. 

Smart covers a lot of ground - from the very positive of being able to hold interesting conversations, to the negative of being in intellectual snob. 

I"m married to a very smart woman (engineer) and know and am attracted to some very smart women. But do I think they are smarter than *me*? Does my overconfidence protect me from really believing that anyone is smarter than I am?


I guess if I were dating I would never want a woman to dumb herself down. Being smart is fantastic, but trying to prove you are smart is not good. ,(I feel this way about men as well).

In general when dating I think its always best to be yourself - assuming you are looking for a long term relationship. What is the point of attracting someone to a personality that is not really yours? (short term if you just want to get laid (and everyone is on the same page) act away.....)


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I have no patience for a lover without intelligence AND wit.

I think you need to focus less on what is being said, and more about how it is being said.

I once dated a woman who was smart. Very smart. Attorney. County assistant DA. 

The problem? She spent too much time showing others how smart she was for the sake of showing how smart she was. She came off as a know it all. 

She needed affirmation of how smart she was because she had terrible self esteem.

I am not saying this is you, but there could be other factors in the "how", not the "what".


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Interesting and candid replies - thank you.

It also doesn't take into consideration different types and applications of intelligence. Practical, applied knowledge like plumbing or electrical wiring seems very complex and confusing to me. Does that make someone smarter? Does that make ME dumber? 

I'd rather have a relationship where we both have our strengths/areas of expertise and admire each other for those while helping each other with our deficits.

@Mr.Nail - haha!


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## Dude007 (Jun 22, 2015)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I'd rather have a relationship where we both have our strengths/areas of expertise and admire each other for those while helping each other with our deficits.


In business we call this synergies. DUDE


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

And I did not know that!


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## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Opinions? Experiences? Most men here say this kind of man is insecure. Apparently there are a LOT of insecure men.


My wife and I met online and didn't actually meet for the first 6 months of our relationship. I fell in love with my wife's brain before I ever kissed her. We would talk (still do) for hours about politics, archeology, physics, cooking...name it.

And she's a formidable opponent in Scrabble.  *grin*

I love my smart woman.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

This is such a big Idea. My Roomie in College had a girlfriend who was a master at the play Dumb thing. She liked Cowboys and it worked for her, up until him. You see he was no dime store cowboy. He was the real deal, raised on a ranch, with a mom who could handle the cows and the steaks. He was even more attractive to her, but the play Dumb thing would never work on him. He needed a woman who could stand beside him no matter what the challenge. Fortunately she really was playing. One day he sent her into the apartment to fetch an auto part. She made us explain to her how it worked before she would take it out in case we were trying to make her look dumb. 

And they did live happily ever after . . .


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## Bam-bam (Sep 24, 2015)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I'd rather have a relationship where we both have our strengths/areas of expertise and admire each other for those while helping each other with our deficits.


Agree 100%... my earlier example about my experience with dating a smart woman are a testament to that. I am smart in my own ways and they weren't quite ways in which she was smart. So it helped that I had my own unique arena of intellectual strengths that she could learn from. It helped that she showed a genuine interest in those areas. It helped me feel like I could be the expert from time to time. In retrospect, we may have been quite evenly matched intellectually, but it was just in different ways. I think that insecurity thing can pop up for anyone when areas of a rather unlevel playing field show up. It shows up everywhere too, not just intellectually. .. appearance, social skills, sexual ability, athletic ability. We are all prone to feel inferior to our partner from time to time and that can wreak havoc on our insecurities. Some people are more insecure than others but I believe we are all insecure to some degree. I think the key is to recognize when we may arouse our partners insecurities and try to reassure them that they we accept them as is. 

I also agree with what other people said. I couldn't be with a know it all or someone that must always be right or always flaunt their intelligence. Again though, I'm just a random guy. Some other random guy out there might welcome that sort of thing.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Excessive intelligence is counterproductive for either gender's happiness UNLESS care is taken to compartmentalize various stressors in life.

Case in point - many of the men from my wife's birth country we socialize with are married to average intelligence women. Mostly homemakers. They have happy marriages for the most part despite the culture or maybe because of it 

Many of the men from my country I know are highly educated and have highly achieving wives. The consensus is they are not as happy as the first group mostly because these highly intelligent women can't seem to separate work from non work as well and get stressed out when jobs don't go as expected.

Also intelligence means different things to different people - my wife is very intelligent (phd Applied Math) but has zero street smarts and zero emotional intelligence. Finding someone who's smart on all three is not impossible but it's difficult. I've lined one such person up  but ironically not much chemistry. 

So it's a big cauldron of requirements, not just one.


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## Dude007 (Jun 22, 2015)

Dude007 said:


> In business we call this synergies. DUDE


The problem with this type of relationship(My marriage) is you are GREAT at building things, projects, paying off all your debt, etc. You end up triangulating around the projects in life and the romance goes to absolute ZERO. You become LLC business partners. DUDE


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I love a smart woman, especially one who can display wit.

I hate a woman who feels the need to prove she's as smart as or smarter than I am. Be smart because you ARE smart, not because it's some kind of goddamned contest.

My brother was a University professor. Some of the women he was involved with fell into that camp. One, an English Ph. D. holder who taught classes in rhetorical analysis, was one of those "prove your smarts" types, and a raging feminist to boot. So I got my revenge one day when I put Bill Burr on Netflix and watched the "You should never hit a woman, but don't tell me there's never a REASON" skit.

Ah, life's simple pleasures.


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

Brains ... I need braaaaains!!!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I like - and married - smart women. I'm not threatened by them, but there are some kinds of smart which aren't compatible for me and so I dislike those types for dating, etc.. Mostly, those would be things that keep us apart often because of career, or someone who flaunted their intellect or used it to demean others, feel superior, or assert control.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Interesting. I never gave it much thought but I really like the cowboy story as it illustrates intelligence is only one of many possible strengths and if used for your partners benefit, why be put off by it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I decided before I jumped back into dating after my divorce, that I was totally and completely unwilling to pretend to be anything I'm not for the sake of attracting a man. Am I willing to improve myself? Yes. But I'm not willing to put on an act just to land a guy. To me, that's just dishonest. And, frankly, why on earth would I want to land a guy who is attracted to something/someone that I'm really not?

So, I am fairly intelligent. I've found that some men do find that intimidating. I don't go out with those men again. Some men see my intelligence as something they need to compete with, so they spend their time trying to show me how smart they are and/or that they know more than I do about X, Y, Z. I don't go out with those men again either - not because I think I do know more, but because competitiveness of that type with a romantic partner isn't appealing to me. My last boyfriend once told me that although I'm physically attractive, the absolute sexiest thing about me is my mind. He's a very bright guy, perhaps more intelligent than I am, but I don't know because he never felt the need to try and prove it. _That's_ the type of guy I want to go out with again.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I like smart women. But no, I wouldn't date one who reminds me that she's smarter than me. Just doesn't turn me on. Same issue with being needed. If I'm not needed, I'm not interested.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I like smart women. But no, I wouldn't date one who reminds me that she's smarter than me. Just doesn't turn me on. Same issue with being needed. If I'm not needed, I'm not interested.



It's not a matter of intelligence as much as it is of expectations. Highly intelligent people have constantly higher expectations and that's the quickest way to destroy a marriage I can think of.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I've never known a single guy to be attracted to "dumb" women, unless they are EXTREMELY hot, and even then they are relegated to "casual fling" or "arm candy wife" status.

I've never been attracted to dumb women. The reason I was so attracted to my wife to begin with (besides that she is smokin' hot) was that she exceeded me, academically. Turned me the hell on.

Set her apart from the pack of other babes I was chasing at the time, that's for sure.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

My boss refused to marry for years because he said he refused to give his name to a *stupid* woman...


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Men May Like The Idea Of A Smart Woman, But They Don't Want To Date One
> 
> Why men are threatened by smart women - MarketWatch
> 
> ...


I don't hang with stupid people.....Most of my friends have more education than me, but I am the leader when we are together....
(this only proves education is highly over rated)....

I married my wife because she was intelligent, and had character.....And was SOOOO hot.....

I have had female supervisors, (No smart ones) but have seriously contemplated transferring to another department because the woman in charge was just to damned good...


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

marduk said:


> I've never known a single guy to be attracted to "dumb" women, unless they are EXTREMELY hot, and even then they are relegated to "casual fling" or "arm candy wife" status.


I don't think you do find many men who are specifically looking for "dumb" women. But I do see a fair number of men who are not okay with their woman being more intelligent than they are. Some guys want her to be smart, just not smarter than him. I think this is the same phenomenon that leads guys to not being okay with their woman being more successful, more famous, higher earning, etc. He's proud of her accomplishments - but only as long as she is just a little less accomplished than he is. It's not the intelligence or money or fame, per se, it's being outshone by their woman that they don't handle well.


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## thebirdman (Apr 5, 2014)

My wife is a very intelligent and accomplished woman, an aspect of her which I enjoy. She is also quick-witted and has a dry sense of humor. 
She tends to make for good conversation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I think many men are uncomfortable with women flaunting their superiority. Much as I hate to admit it, I don't want a woman to show that she is stronger, smarter, wealthier etc. I am absolutely fine if she IS those things, and I would never want her to hide them, but I would not like to be constantly reminded.

I don't know if women often feel the same way. There is a general belief (which may be completely false) that women like men who exhibit wealth, strength etc. Do people feel this is actually true?

Are women more accepting of "showing off" then men are? Is there still a sense that men should "prove their worth" to women but not the other way around?


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Opinions? Experiences? Most men here say this kind of man is insecure. Apparently there are a LOT of insecure men.


Two of my long term ex girlfriends had a Ph.D. One was in the field of biological sciences. Between those two, I dated a computer programmer. Later, I briefly dated a lady who had less than average intellect and definitely not a deep or independent thinker. 

I really missed having a very intelligent partner. The next person was my wife, who is intelligent with a graduate degree specializing in finance and economics. There are many intelligent people without a degree. My examples mentioned degrees, but I would be equally happy with a lady with no degree, but yet had critical/logical thinking skills and who is very witty. 

When you read an article about men preferring women who are not bright, file this generalization away with all the other random generalizations. 

There are all types of women and men who prefer a wide variety of things.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

intheory said:


> ^^^ I totally agree with this.
> 
> 
> I've come to believe that_ most_ (not *all*) men like a certain type of intelligence in women.
> ...


I just had a vision of Hermione Granger raising her hand at all the questions and whatever professor being annoyed by her enthusiasm. Not sure if that's the scene you intended to paint.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Woodchuck said:


> I don't hang with stupid people.....Most of my friends have more education than me, but I am the leader when we are together....
> (this only proves education is highly over rated)....


Do smart women ever comment about that chip on your shoulder?


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I find this true. While not brilliant, in my group of men based on my 'attraction score' seen referenced on these boards, I have found men threatened or feel emasculated by my knowledge. Maybe it's all in the way I present myself. But that's the point of the study.


I'll have to read the articles later but it sounds like you do need to change. But you need to change your group of men not yourself.

I can't imagine anything worse than going on a date with someone who can't have a two way and equal conversation. 

I think a relationship between two people who are very different intelligence levels, which ever way the imbalance, would be difficult.



> Do I need to "dumb" myself down to be found attractive?


No, no, no. Not just "No" but [insert TAM banned adjective here] No!!



> And isn't that the whole point of dating - to be yourself and find that person who meshes with the REAL you, not just the you that has been found more appealing? For instance I don't want a man who just uses good manners, refrains from streaks of F-bombs and withholds his gaseous emissions during the dating period - whatever is represented should be what I get for the entire relationship. No bait-and-switch.


I agree.



> Opinions? Experiences? Most men here say this kind of man is insecure. Apparently there are a LOT of insecure men.


Many years ago (my very early 20s) I was working for a long time in a foreign country and had a girlfriend there. I thought I was in love. However it wasn't long before she wanted me to tell her what she should do every day, if she was allowed to go and see her sister or not, what time she should be back etc. I soon realized that I did love her but love as a parent loves a child, not the equivalent love that you have for a partner in a relationship.

Having an obedient, and not as smart, woman is one of those things that you need to be careful what you wish for, as you might just get it. 

Don't lower yourself to other people expectations, find other people who are up to your standards.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

From the first article EW linked:

_"Men who blow off intelligent women might just be protecting their fragile masculine egos."_

Sounds accurate.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Do smart women ever comment about that chip on your shoulder?


Actually, they find me witty, and charming ....At least the smart ones do...

In a social group, I am easy going and giving....I must admit, in a working environment, I do not suffer fools...


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Doesn't matter to me if she is more intelligent or makes more money. I also happen to believe that college education is somewhat over rated and if your driving force in life is money you might not be a very complete person. My guess is that because I don't put much thought into either they are unimportant to me. 

That said I need a woman who has a good deal of common sense and a willingness to be responsible.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

intheory said:


> That might just be a religion thing, though.


I think it's probably both a religion thing and a cultural thing. Religious groups tend to cling to older, more "traditional", cultural mores longer than mainstream secular society sometimes does. A hundred years ago - even fifty years ago - it would have been socially unacceptable for a respectable woman, especially a married one, to be in the spotlight for anything other than to briefly support a man. It was simply a given that a woman's place was in her husband's (or father's or brother's) shadow. A good wife would never do anything so unseemly as take attention away from her husband. Those concepts of gender are fading in wider society in favor of a more equal partnership model, but you still see the "old fashioned" model in more conservative circles. And religious circles do tend to be more conservative.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Woodchuck said:


> Actually, they find me witty, and charming ....At least the smart ones do...
> 
> In a social group, I am easy going and giving....I must admit, in a working environment, I do not suffer fools...


It's just that's not the first anti-education statement you've made.

Education isn't the answer to all of life's ills, but it's pretty darned useful for lots of things. You don't start in my career as an Electrical Engineer without a college education, because there will be gaps in your knowledge big enough to drive a truck through that you can't pick up just from looking over someone else's shoulder. Don't understand Maxwell's equations in both forms? Good luck designing a properly matched antenna. Don't know linear algebra or how to work in the complex number plane? Forget solving a reactive circuit. Don't understand a Laplace transform? You'll never be able to design a stable feedback system. 

Education appropriate to the job is absolutely essential and not to be underrated.


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## Lostme (Nov 14, 2014)

There are actually quite a few men who prefer, their women to have some brains and can hold a conversation.

I'm a smart educated women too, I do not dumb myself down for anyone. However I do not act like a know it having to be right all the time (not saying you do, I don't know you) and others being wrong. 

There are some instances where a guy does not like a brainy women( I have asked my male friends), and that is when she tries to put him down and tell him how to do (whatever he may be doing) or acting better than others and putting them down.

Never dumb yourself down for anyone, if they can't handle you being smart they are not worth your time.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Rowan said:


> I don't think you do find many men who are specifically looking for "dumb" women. But I do see a fair number of men who are not okay with their woman being more intelligent than they are. Some guys want her to be smart, just not smarter than him. I think this is the same phenomenon that leads guys to not being okay with their woman being more successful, more famous, higher earning, etc. He's proud of her accomplishments - but only as long as she is just a little less accomplished than he is. It's not the intelligence or money or fame, per se, it's being outshone by their woman that they don't handle well.


Seems like a good way to weed out insecure mates. 

Especially because while everybody is smart at some things and dumb at others.

My wife had a 4.0 GPA and multiple degrees. Something I didn't have the patience, discipline, or academic bent to do. 

And it really tuned me on about her. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

The best mates IMHO are those who are both smart and wise.

Smart enough to have learned that they don't have all of the answers to any of life's questions, and smart enough to learn some new things along the way instead of assuming the their experience is both the pinnacle of all human experience and the only valid one around. 

Binary or simplistic thinkers are, by my definition, not very bright.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

intheory said:


> I've come to believe that_ most_ (not *all*) men like *a certain type of intelligence in women.*
> 
> *The "common sense" type of smarts,* alluded to by someone upthread. I think men genuinely appreciate a woman who can use her wits to run their lives as well as possible.
> 
> ...


What you spoke here reminds me of the speech given by a Superintendent at Graduation this year.. ..normally these things don't grab my attention ... we're anxious to just get out of there.. get on with it..... but this year...with his humor & wit... I just loved this speech....so much I was taking mental notes -hoping when I got home I could find this article on the net...this was it...

Nonacademic Skills Are Key To Success. But What Should We Call Them? 








... some would call these "LIFE SKILLS"... others may say "Social/Emotional Skills."

This is enough for my husband but that makes sense of course.. he's just a blue collar guy... I don't feel he would be threatened by a higher intelligent woman, nor if she made more $$ -- unless she had a superior attitude and pushed it in his face... we talked about this once.. that was how he explained it ... 

Basically* >> *


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

There is also a growing trend towards anti-intellectualism in this country, near as I can tell, but I see it a whole lot more directed towards men than I do towards women, what with fewer women in positions of power. 

Still, it doesn't pay to be seen as too dumb either, even if you're a woman. Witness the reaction a good many folks had towards the last female GOP seeker of the VP position. Perhaps men aren't seeking out the smartest women for partners, but we don't want the dim bulbs having too much authority either. 

The disparity in college attendance rates ensures that a whole lotta men better get comfortable with a smart woman, and step on it.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Cletus said:


> It's just that's not the first anti-education statement you've made.
> 
> Education isn't the answer to all of life's ills, but it's pretty darned useful for lots of things. You don't start in my career as an Electrical Engineer without a college education, because there will be gaps in your knowledge big enough to drive a truck through that you can't pick up just from looking over someone else's shoulder. Don't understand Maxwell's equations in both forms? Good luck designing a properly matched antenna. Don't know linear algebra or how to work in the complex number plane? Forget solving a reactive circuit. Don't understand a Laplace transform? You'll never be able to design a stable feedback system.
> 
> Education appropriate to the job is absolutely essential and not to be underrated.


Let me paraphrase your last sentence...

Education* appropriately applied to the job *is absolutely essential and not to be underrated....But I have pegged out my "dumbsh1tometer" with way too many highly educated people....

I was working at the test station for a proportional vacuum solenoid, and I struck up a conversation with the man who invented it.....Patent US4875499 - Proportional solenoid valve - Google Patents

He was involved with R&D...I had been involved with everything from molding the components to winding the coils, to sourcing the pole materials for their magnetic properties, to designing the assembly and test equipment....

I suggested that instead of setting the pole to a dimension, and checking the inductance of the coil to qualify the unit, we should set the inductance to it's optimum value, and not worry about the pole gap dimension... 

Doing this would factor out variations in dimensions, electrical properties, coil winding..... and hugely reduce variability in the finished product....

We talked about the concept for a couple of hours, and he later did some tests in his lab...From then on, he stopped measuring air gap and set to inductance....

I had discussed this with several other people in engineering management, and got nothing but a blank look....

A great deal of training would be very necessary to design circuits, antenie, etc....And when I needed something that specific, I relied on one of our technical guys....

We liked to hire Coasties...The Coast Guard produced some of the best electronic technical people I have ever worked with...

A good engineer is a great asset. someone with an engineering degree "cause his/her college said so"...is usually an obstruction...

I know a lot has to do with their personal work ethic, and interest in the job, but* DAMN* 

I might add that the only place I have not found this to be true was working for a company called The Columbia Group, Engineering and design dept....The Columbia Group

They were ALL accomplished individuals...They built miniature submarines, and robotic mine sweepers at that facility ...


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## Dude007 (Jun 22, 2015)

I wish my wife was brilliant and made all kinds of money, then I'd me a trophy husband by the pool every day!! DUDE


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

I love intelligent people and its not about education...some of the most brilliant people I've met haven't had much educational opportunity. I just relish the chance to learn something new.

I don't believe its true that men aren't attracted to intelligent women. I think the issue is women that are immodest, braggy and superficial about their intelligence. The type that feel the need to rank themselves and are competitive against each other and even with men. Or the kind of intelligent woman that can also has trouble relaxing and hamming it up.

No matter how attractive, intelligent, or accomplished you are, immodesty is just an annoying trait. No guy wants to deal with a know-it-all who's constantly reciting their resume and can't relax and have a good time and laugh at themselves.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Education appropriate to the job is absolutely essential and not to be underrated.


Education appropriate to life doesn't suck either. Loads of people don't know even the basics of history. So they just make it up to suit their preconceived notions. Then vote! Not a fan.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i dated a girl that was extremely well educated once. i ended up breaking up with her. 

i wasnt intimidated by her intelligence, but rather put off by the way she constantly asserted views that she read in a book somewhere. i have to admit, she was far more educated in the classical sense than i was. 
but then again, i found her to be incredibly boring. with all the knowledge she had accumulated from her studies, she couldnt seem to come up with an original thought or solution to a problem to save her life. 


to me, the most fascinating and attractive women are the ones that can chat with me, concerning a topic they know nothing about, and yet still be able to grasp the ideas im bouncing off of their head, translate them to a simpler plane, and ask pointed questions that get me thinking in a new direction, or towards a solution to a puzzling problem. 

those people, i find to be brilliant.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

In both sexes intelligence can often be mixed with arrogance. Arrogance is often confused with confidence and confidence in turn is wrongly confused with competence. 

But there are some realities that I think are uncomfortable but true. 

The basic problem is confidence and even arrogance in men often passes as an attractive quality whereas that is almost never true that an arrogant woman is seen as attractive. A woman lacking in confidence can be seen as endearing but a man who lacks confidence is just as often seen as pathetic. 

Intelligent people of both sexes can make those around them feel insecure. It is rational for a male to feel this insecurity and wonder if it makes him less attractive to the potential mate. This may not be the case with many woman, but it is a rational fear.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

I was in relationship long time ago, where my partner admitted that my intelligence was the first thing that attracted me, because he finally felt challenged. We started with political and social discussions, and then developed into steamy sex, that was equally challenging (in good way

I think it is not only that men do not want to date smarter women. Women also do not want to date men who are not as smart as them. I had a friend in college, math student at one of the old, respected universities. This was date killer for her. She would go on the date, and once the conversation got to the point "where did you go to college" or what do you do, most of the guys would withdraw , her major just sounded way too serious. She is still alone.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> I was in relationship long time ago, where my partner admitted that my intelligence was the first thing that attracted me, because he finally felt challenged. We started with political and social discussions, and then developed into steamy sex, that was equally challenging (in good way
> 
> I think it is not only that men do not want to date smarter women. Women also do not want to date men who are not as smart as them.


So you are saying that women date up and men date down? Hmm, where have I heard that before? >


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

technovelist said:


> So you are saying that women date up and men date down? Hmm, where have I heard that before? >


I know, not really PC


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

EnigmaGirl said:


> I love intelligent people and its not about education...some of the most brilliant people I've met haven't had much educational opportunity. I just relish the chance to learn something new.
> 
> I don't believe its true that men aren't attracted to intelligent women. I think the issue is women that are immodest, braggy and superficial about their intelligence. The type that feel the need to rank themselves and are competitive against each other and even with men. Or the kind of intelligent woman that can also has trouble relaxing and hamming it up.
> 
> No matter how attractive, intelligent, or accomplished you are, immodesty is just an annoying trait. No guy wants to deal with a know-it-all who's constantly reciting their resume and can't relax and have a good time and laugh at themselves.



My dad was a 9th grade dropout who also happened to be a brilliant guy. His life in the 50's was such that he needed to work, so higher education wasn't an option for him.

My first husband was very intimidated by my intelligence, probably a lot of the reason he was such a pr!ck to me. Well that and he thought women in general were beneath him, and to him I was a Jewish b!tch who didn't know my place as a woman. Ironic because I never looked down on him for less education.....he was smart in different ways that I appreciated. But he felt threatened by me and couldn't control me. His first wife wasn't that bright and I think he preferred that.

Strangely enough my 2nd husband isn't the least bit intimidated by my intelligence. He's plenty intelligent himself so he has no reason to feel inferior, and he likes that fact that I make more than him. It's all household money anyway.

There is a subset of men who can't deal with intelligent women but there are plenty that love it. The trick is to find one from group 2.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> My dad was a 9th grade dropout who also happened to be a brilliant guy. His life in the 50's was such that he needed to work, so higher education wasn't an option for him.
> 
> My first husband was very intimidated by my intelligence, probably a lot of the reason he was such a pr!ck to me. Well that and he thought women in general were beneath him, and to him I was a Jewish b!tch who didn't know my place as a woman. Ironic because I never looked down on him for less education.....he was smart in different ways that I appreciated. But he felt threatened by me and couldn't control me. His first wife wasn't that bright and I think he preferred that.
> 
> ...


Yes, and amazingly enough, a good place to look for men in group 2 is among *highly intelligent men*. >


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

technovelist said:


> Yes, and amazingly enough, a good place to look for men in group 2 is among *highly intelligent men*. >


As a general rule yes but you do have to weed out the subset of those men that have huge egos and don't like what they perceive to be competition. I've known a few of them.....

One of the reasons I like my current boss is because he's incredibly intelligent but has no ego to speak of so he hears all of us and if he thinks my position is better than his he'll openly admit that. If he thinks he's right (or just this his position is stronger since it's not always an issue of right or wrong) he'll acknowledge your position and then make his decision, which as the director of the department is ultimately his call to make.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> As a general rule yes but you do have to weed out the subset of those men that have huge egos and don't like what they perceive to be competition. I've known a few of them.....
> 
> One of the reasons I like my current boss is because he's incredibly intelligent but has no ego to speak of so he hears all of us and if he thinks my position is better than his he'll openly admit that. If he thinks he's right (or just this his position is stronger since it's not always an issue of right or wrong) he'll acknowledge your position and then make his decision, which as the director of the department is ultimately his call to make.


I agree with all of that.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Shoe on the other foot...Would you ladies date a guy in the top 2.5% of the IQ range?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

EnjoliWoman said:


> And I did not know that!


Yep, synergy means 1+1=3 so it's not math . In other words the individual pieces (man/woman) each become more when they are put together.


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## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> ...I had a friend in college, math student at one of the old, respected universities. This was date killer for her. She would go on the date, and once the conversation got to the point "where did you go to college" or what do you do, most of the guys would withdraw , her major just sounded way too serious. *She is still alone.*




Along a similar line, I'm a Computer Science major w/ a minor in math. Never had a woman withdraw when they found out about my education and career, but I have gotten stuff like..."Very funny. what do you really do?" or "You look more like a jock than a geek."

I wear my "geekiness" like a badge of honor. Oh yeah. :grin2:


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Wobegon 

I've got a lot of friends with educated wives. Some of them are very well off due to the wife's job. 

None of them that I am aware have issues with it. Why? Because they are compatible people in that they both have about the same relative educations and backgrounds.

There's a reason a lot of doctors marry other doctors.....

My issue would be is a woman is a rock, no matter how good looking she was it's a deal breaker. 

This is why when a one spouse goes on to get a degree after a marriage and the other spouse does not it can create a gradient.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

Woodchuck said:


> Shoe on the other foot...Would you ladies date a guy in the top 2.5% of the IQ range?


Yup, and I was married to him for 28 years. I am in the same IQ range, so it's not up/down dating, we were equals by that measure.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

technovelist said:


> I agree that bait and switch is wrong for either person to do.
> 
> As for me, I have no problems with smart women; in fact, almost all of my relationships have been with smart women, including one I met at a Mensa meeting. :surprise:
> 
> ...


The problem comes when someone is believed they are smarter than their partner and that that difference is an important one. The woman will be smarter half the time and the man smarter half the time. I imagine if you do a survey, a majority of men think they are a bit smarter than their partner and a large majority of women - it is just the nature of how intellect is judged. 

I enjoyed living in Oxford, but there were environs in which intellect was considered an actual virtue, and I was uncomfortable with that.

I am clever enough that in the lab where I did my PhD, I was considered the clever one for my breadth of understanding. However, I have been out with women smarter than me and it was great. However, I judge them smarter, they judged me smarter. I have been out with women who thought I was smarter and that it was a big deal, which was fine though I did not think it a big deal.

I have been out with plenty of women who thought they were smarter as men are stupid and it was a big deal. This was irritating and was a small minority.


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

So I'm really dumb and just about any woman I meet so going to be smarter then me so I've gotten used to the role of arm candy.... 

I did read the articles linked and find them a bit lacking. That said, this is a very interesting topic with a lot of moving pieces. 

I think its difficult to look at one aspect of a relationship and attempt to isolate it for study (as other posters have mentioned) The male / female dynamic is complicated but in my experience generally men prefer to lead and women prefer a man who they are comfortable with leading. I think there are many reasons for this generally preferred dynamic....socialization, physical, sexual etc.

As for what is acceptable for a relationship I think there is a range and depending on where two people fall on the range relative to each other suggests how compatible they will be (again generally)

For me, I'm comfortable with someone who is very accomplished in their field or very knowledgeable on various topics. I'm accomplished in my field and can carry a conversation on most topics and so I'm not threatened and enjoy being impressed by intellects working honestly and without pretense. What I would not want is someone who is over my head in enough areas that it does not balance overall. While never experiencing it, I can't imagine being happy in a situation where I am always deferring to another ( for any reason but in this case because of they are generally superior ) In a similar conversation once I told a women that I wanted "my equal or my slave". I was using extreme language to make a point and she understood exactly what I was saying.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Woodchuck said:


> Shoe on the other foot...Would you ladies date a guy in the top 2.5% of the IQ range?


Yes. Would I occasionally feel as if he were bored with my intellect? Perhaps. But all women know a good BJ trumps all. >


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

And while I found the articles through provoking and I've had my share of intimidated men, I don't consider myself much smarter than slightly above average. I have more practical applied knowledge than a lot of women; very little formal education knowledge (I'd be useless on trivia night or on Jeopardy) but lots of curiosity and desire for debate and good conversation.

I also know that the study was pretty limited as it only pertained to IQ and as other posters have pointed out there is common sense, book sense, situational awareness, applied knowledge, emotional IQ... so many ways to be intelligent that I find it silly to 'compete' on intelligence unless it becomes so extreme that there is a lack of compatibility (i.e. Sheldon vs. Penny for those Big Bang watchers).


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

personally, i have little faith in IQ scores. 

i have seen my own IQ scores vary wildly, depending on the test and how i am feeling at the time of the test.


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## mightbeover (Oct 28, 2015)

My wife is smarter than me. Perfect grammar. Great at Math/Physics. Kicked my ass in university.
I always found it a huge turn-on. Maybe a Darwin thing wanting a smart mate.
Probably the thing I love most about her.
Her x was a dumbass and was intimidated by her.
She once called him stupid (as a joke)and he completely lost it.
I agree most guys are scared of smart women but I am not.
When she out-wits me I just say "ok. smartypants"
and think to myself "we'll see how smart you look bent over later"

In a nice thought


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Opinions? Experiences? Most men here say this kind of man is insecure. Apparently there are a LOT of insecure men.


My exwife was a fvcking moron. Literally... barely finished high school and didn't know the multiplication table. This repulsed me, it was impossible to have an intelligent conversation with her about anything because her entire knowledge base consisted of the Kardashians and Entertainment Tonight. One of my good friends who is a female is VERY intelligent. I talk with her frequently, her husband is aware, and I am very respectful of their marriage. In any event, the reason we are such good friends is because she is so smart and we get along really well.

I think STUPID men are intimidated by smart women. If you are intellectual equals I don't see what the threat is. If you're a moron then yeah I guess I could see why someone would be threatened by being made to look stupid all the time. Though would you really want to be with a stupid person? I was and it sucked. I think sometimes my exwife was threatened or jealous of my intelligence. I know one thing. I'll never date or marry another idiot again.

Presentation is a factor too OP. I dated a few women who THOUGHT they were very smart. They weren't... They were "know it alls" and this was very unattractive too. They would just spew nonsense all the time with no proof to back it up. I don't proclaim to be super intelligent but I consider myself a smart guy. At least people tell me I am. The woman I spoke about earlier is definitely smarter than me. I can tell a woman is smart woman generally within 30 seconds of speaking to her. Most intelligent people are modest and soft spoken. They have nothing to prove. The "know it alls" are the complete opposite and I steer clear of those types now.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> My exwife was a fvcking moron. Literally... barely finished high school and didn't know the multiplication table. This repulsed me, it was impossible to have an intelligent conversation with her about anything because her entire knowledge base consisted of the Kardashians and Entertainment Tonight.


I'm curious as to how you ended up married to someone you considered so beneath you in intelligence? Did you not notice it before marriage, or did you not consider it to be a problem until after you were married?


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Rowan said:


> I'm curious as to how you ended up married to someone you considered so beneath you in intelligence? Did you not notice it before marriage, or did you not consider it to be a problem until after you were married?


I appreciate the condescension but I'll answer your question anyway. 

I thought she was a good person. I was happy to take care of anything that required mental capacity in the household (ie supporting us financially, paying the bills, buying the house, negotiating the cars, doing taxes, etc. etc.) 

And we got along well other than the whole, "she's a serial cheating wh0re" thing. So now that I have the chance to do it again? I'm not going to pick another IDIOT who ruins not only her family but another's for a fvck in the back of a pickup truck.

And I'd like her to know what 9 x 8 is without using a calculator. Too much to ask?


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## Aspydad (Oct 17, 2013)

I think it depends on how confident the man is about himself. If he is insecure to begin with, an intellectual superior women (if that what he sees) would cause this insecure person afraid to engage. I know this by experience. 

When in college, I dated a girl that was / is a genius - IQ off the charts. For whatever reason this girl pursued me and I thought she was very pretty and certainly a very nice girl. So we dated - on / off for about 6 months (the reason I say on / off is that we went to different colleges - she went to college in my home town and I was about 1.5 hours away. We went on dates about two to three times per month when I would come home. During the summer, I saw her more.) She was the one who was trying to push me to get more serious - and I just could not do it and in the end I was kind of repulsed by her - REASON: she was very sophisticated - she liked to go on these romantic date nights - go to romantic parks - stuff like that - when I went back to her apartment - she would light candles - bring out wine - feed each other strawberry prior to getting down to some serious making-out time - I had to wear clothes that where very nice because she dressed up - big time. - and that was just NOT ME (when I think back today - it is like WTF was I thinking!!) At the time though - It was like dating a 30 year old - yet, we were just 19. To give an idea how smart this girl was - she made 36 on ACT - perfect score. Graduated college in two years - was a Medical Doctor four years later - and completed her residency four years after that - and today is a very successful Cardiologist. I knew she was going to be a doctor and this threatened me - my vision was to marry someone and take care of them - I did not want to be the one being supported by my wife - that is just who I was at 19 - topped off with the fact that I had NO IDEA what I wanted to do with my life. SO - I dropped her - she ended up marrying a wonderful guy who was very sure of himself - he is six years older than her - already had a career when she was still in school - and from what I see on Facebook - they have a beautiful family - and are rich.

If I had met this girl when I was six years older and had confidence in myself - maybe things would have turned out differently - but, at age 19 - no way.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Check back in 10 or 20 years. I had a similar story with a driven, high achieving woman only to have it all end up where she's married to her job and material things.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Intelligence seems to be a combination of different mental skills so deciding who is actually "smarter" is not always meaningful and usually requires knowing more than academic performance. I work with lots of very smart people of both sexes and two things always surprise me. 1) How many intelligent people have profound "blindspots" (ie. skills or areas in their life where their intelligence seems entirely stop working) and 2) The poor relationship between someone's belief in their own intelligence and actual performance.

I'm sure we all know couples where one party may have an intellectually demanding job and high achievement but is clueless on most practicalities.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I have no problem being in a relationship with intelligent women. In fact, I've never met one that didn't know everything.


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## Florida_rosbif (Oct 18, 2015)

Intelligent women don't intimidate me whatsoever, but I don't like people who are full of themselves and hung up on how smart they are. My wife and I are both from engineering backgrounds, but she's completely theoretical whereas I love the practical too, so I'm the fixer/builder/maker. She likes to say that she's the head and I'm the hands, the cheeky *****. I counter that by saying that I'm the only real engineer in the family, just as at ease with a computer as with bag of hand tools!

I recall dating a smart girl doing a degree in electrical engineering. For her it was purely a paper exercise - I realised this when she admitted that she couldn't wire a plug!

I'm a recent sign up to this site, so obviously here for bad reasons. My smart wife, the intellectual snob, ended up having an affair with someone who is educationally sub-normal. His favourite topic of conversation is how he shaves his balls. So go figure.......Opposites attract?


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

I don't really like the word intelligent as it is pretty general and misunderstood in my opinion. There is intellectual intelligence, creative intelligence, emotional intelligence, etc... 

I like meeting "aware" people, men or women. 

Aware meaning, on the path towards enlightenment. The types of intelligence mentioned above and as well the desire to learn/improve, generally if not always follow suite to the "aware". People who are not on this path are easy to spot. They fear a lot. They judge. They lie. They run from their problems and they rarely face their demons. They use knowledge in favor of their agendas. 

Reading the article, I am not surprised. It's crucial to understand that for the majority of human history (in most parts of the world), women have only been present in the "workforce" and independence within the past 100 years. For a large portion of history, men expected women to be submissive. Some still do... 

Now some, (mostly dumb men), are thinking that one way to get women to be submissive to them is by specifically dating those of inferior "intelligence", instead of being a gentlemen and their authentic selves. Although kind of a childish strategy, it is one nonetheless, and there are pros and cons to either side. I have a friend who thinks he married a less intelligent wife but hehehehe she's smarter then she looks. 

I struggle finding the aware women with high levels of creative intelligence. As for me, I need a woman who can challenge and push me to higher levels (creatively speaking), respect me, love me for who I am, have fun with me (I need a woman who is more laid back then ambitious) and generally speaking when those basic needs have been met the sexual chemistry is there.

Can't say I've met a woman that I felt intimidated by. You know what I'm intimidated by? ****ing rabid wolverines.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I can remember dating one or two guys who seemed threatened by me in some kind of way.

One of the clearest examples was a guy I dated in my late 20s. I knew he wasn't right for me so I tried to let him down easy. One time I told him I was going to see a ballet. Afterwards he asked me how was it? 

Was there singing, dancing....... I said it's ballet, so there's only dancing. He retorted that he knew more about ballet because he used to date a ballet dancer. Hookay........

These days, I have no patience for anyone who wants to dominate me intellectually. My husband accepts that in some areas of life, I know more than he does and vice versa. 

This is one thing I have trouble understanding. If you didn't study it, become a serious amateur in it or work in that area, why does anyone feel the need to act like a (f^cking) expert in any area of knowledge. Not to mention, real intelligence is not about the number of facts stored in your head, but how you process the information that you get.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> I appreciate the condescension but I'll answer your question anyway.
> 
> I thought she was a good person. I was happy to take care of anything that required mental capacity in the household (ie supporting us financially, paying the bills, buying the house, negotiating the cars, doing taxes, etc. etc.)
> 
> ...


I apologize if you found my question condescending. That was not my intent. I was genuinely curious as to how you could have ended up married to someone with an intellect you obviously disdained, and wondered if it wasn't a problem prior to the marriage and became one later. That does, in fact, seem to be what happened. Her other qualities seemed more important than her brain power, until she betrayed you and those other compensating qualities proved illusory. That must have been very painful. I'm sorry that happened to you.


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

Was going to add that the "I am intelligent because I went to school thus I know everything" type of mentality is generally annoying...so clarification on the word intelligence perhaps needs to be made. Applies to both men and women.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Rowan said:


> Her other qualities seemed more important than her brain power, until she betrayed you and those other compensating qualities proved illusory.


That's a fair statement. 

In hindsight, I'd rather have partner I can connect with on a meaningful and intellectual level as well.

I see no reason to settle for less anymore. In my youth, I was impetuous. Older now, I'm independent enough that I don't have too.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Yes. Would I occasionally feel as if he were bored with my intellect? Perhaps. But all women know a good BJ trumps all. >


Lets have coffee some time, I'm sure you would make delightful company, and spirited conversation......
>

Opps, just remembered I'm married..:frown2:


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> I was in relationship long time ago, where my partner admitted that my intelligence was the first thing that attracted me, because he finally felt challenged. We started with political and social discussions, and then developed into steamy sex, that was equally challenging (in good way
> 
> I think it is not only that men do not want to date smarter women. Women also do not want to date men who are not as smart as them. I had a friend in college, math student at one of the old, respected universities. This was date killer for her. She would go on the date, and once the conversation got to the point "where did you go to college" or what do you do, most of the guys would withdraw , her major just sounded way too serious. She is still alone.


If she is so smart, why hasn't she figured out that her math studies were killing her social life?...I suspect she wasn't really that interested...


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

It's interesting that the second study shows we (men in general) want someone smart but the blind dates show this isn't the case. Plus it wasn't about actual IQ but instead about the perceived IQ the testers wanted these young men to believe. There's no other conclusion except that some of the men in this study were feeling insignificant and they let if affect the date and their perception of the woman on the date. It's hard to discount that this study shows that smarter women have much fewer options in men because we apparently can't handle it lol.

In my estimation this plays on a basic human nature of confirmation bias. When we are looking for something then we see it and these guys were looking for signs that they were being judged as inadequate so that's what they felt.

Of course I would never fall into this trap; the epitome of self confidence and masculine strength with just the right amount of sensitivity but still being rough around the edges. Yea no need to massage the ego here .


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Intelligence is nice. Wisdom is better.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Dude007 said:


> I can't stand dumb women. I hate talking to dumb women. I'm not attracted to dumb women. I like really smart women, more common sense(street smarts) than a book worm. DUDE


*@Dude
~ the only thing worse than a "dumb woman" is preeminently one who puts on aires to make everyone else think that she is so damned smart! 

Absolutely disgusting, but often amusing!

And not to be overtly sexist, let's just say that the very same thing certainly applies to a man as well!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Something ought to be done about this! We can't have smart women going around threatening men!

Why are they threatening men anyway?

Big meanies!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Constable Odo told me early on that the difference in having an emotionally, worldly, and intelligently present woman in his life rather than the alternative in his past was like night and day.

It was the difference between eagerly looking forward to coming home, ready to embrace stimulating conversation vs. dreading coming home, knowing you'll be ignored, to your gf sitting on the couch, mudslide in hand, glued to "Alaskan Ice Road Truckers" on TV.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Woodchuck said:


> If she is so smart, why hasn't she figured out that her math studies were killing her social life?...I suspect she wasn't really that interested...


Do you mean she should have dumbed down and pretend not to be so smart? She wasn't show off, she wasn't trying to put anyone down, but she was smarter than most people.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

To add, for me this is not only about general intelligence, but also EI. The guys has to have good understanding of human emotions, complexity of relationship, etc. I can not be with someone clueless about it, no matter how smart otherwise.

In general - all this is what I treasure in my friends. Intelligence and high emotional intelligence, seeing all shades of the world, not just black and white, curiosity and opennes. The SO is supposed to be ultimate friend, so he should be meeting the same criteria. It is pretty good rule of thumb to follow.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

WandaJ said:


> Do you mean she should have dumbed down and pretend not to be so smart? She wasn't show off, she wasn't trying to put anyone down, but she was smarter than most people.


It does take a socially skilled person to find an interesting angle to most complicated of disciplines. I understand that this is a problem that accountants have too.


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## Bam-bam (Sep 24, 2015)

As'laDain said:


> i dated a girl that was extremely well educated once. i ended up breaking up with her.
> 
> i wasnt intimidated by her intelligence, but rather put off by the way she constantly asserted views that she read in a book somewhere. i have to admit, she was far more educated in the classical sense than i was.
> but then again, i found her to be incredibly boring. with all the knowledge she had accumulated from her studies, she couldnt seem to come up with an original thought or solution to a problem to save her life.
> ...


THIS! Agree 100%. For me, it's the ability for deep introspective curious thought that gets me going. She must be open minded to differing views as well. She can disagree with me but she must be willing to see my point of view to at least some degree. She must be intelligent enough to follow the conversation as well. Otherwise, it goes nowhere for me. The more I think about this whole subject of smart women, the more ridiculous I feel the claim is that men don't want a smart woman. It's complete and utter BS. Still, I can definitely relate to a lot of the subtle nuances that others are pointing out.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

a few people made the point above-- there are different types of intelligence.

there is a category of people that treat intelligence as if it is some type of yes/no checkbox.

a lot of people who would score very highly on conventional methods of evaluating intelligence are actually quite weak on other types of intelligence (e.g., social/emotional, creativity, etc)

conversely, some people lack "book smarts" but are highly perceptive leaders, caregivers, artists, etc.

overall, I think the word intelligence is a pretty loaded word and is really not the best descriptor for whether someone is interesting or attractive to someone else.

some people like inquisitive people, some people like aggressive people, some people like relaxed people. some other people dislike the same things. 

these are all personality traits and aren't really fixed in relation to talent for math, language or anything else.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

So I know what I think on this subject but how many very smart women would be good dating or marrying a less intelligent man?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

I have known many extremely intelligent women, and have never felt threatened in the least. As an adult, I have not had many deeply intimate relationships with either intelligent or unintelligent women, so I can't really speak from a broad dating or marital view, but I am pretty observant.

I have known many highly intelligent women who feel compelled to show everybody around them just how intelligent they are. To be fair, I have known many men who do the same. I am typically not friends with either, and would certainly not date or marry a woman like that. It's not the intelligence that is the turn off, it is the attitude, the defensiveness, the condissention, the need to constantly prove their superiority. Those attitudes, and lack of social skills are all too often paired with the rationalization that it is simply the intelligence and not the person that's the problem. It's way easier for some people to blame the other person for not being able to handle their superior intellect, than to look at themselves and realize they just have a crappy personality.

In a broader sense...it's the difference between confident and arrogant. People are drawn to confidence and repelled by arrogance. Sadly, the arrogant person is usually too, well, arrogant to recognize the difference.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> So I know what I think on this subject but how many very smart women would be good dating or marrying a less intelligent man?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think for the women who care about this sort of thing, the "man must have superior intelligence" check box is either a proxy for dominance or for provider traits.

A lot of times (in my experience) this type of woman could really care less about what the guy is actually intelligent about, it's just a means to this other thing.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> So I know what I think on this subject but how many very smart women would be good dating or marrying a less intelligent man?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Depends on what you mean.

Remember the sitcom Frasier. the only character who had any common sense was Frasier's dad who was a retired police officer and (just) a high school graduate.

And he could "pull" the ladies better than his Harvard educated son.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

samyeagar said:


> I have known many extremely intelligent women, and have never felt threatened in the least. As an adult, I have not had many deeply intimate relationships with either intelligent or unintelligent women, so I can't really speak from a broad dating or marital view, but I am pretty observant.
> 
> I have known many highly intelligent women who feel compelled to show everybody around them just how intelligent they are. To be fair, I have known many men who do the same. I am typically not friends with either, and would certainly not date or marry a woman like that. * It's not the intelligence that is the turn off, it is the attitude, the defensiveness, the condissention, the need to constantly prove their superiority. * Those attitudes, and lack of social skills are all too often paired with the rationalization that it is simply the intelligence and not the person that's the problem. It's way easier for some people to blame the other person for not being able to handle their superior intellect, than to look at themselves and realize they just have a crappy personality.
> 
> In a broader sense...it's the difference between confident and arrogant. People are drawn to confidence and repelled by arrogance. Sadly, the arrogant person is usually too, well, arrogant to recognize the difference.



This what I have to deal with with my family. Particularly, my mother. I realise now that quite often when she is asking me a question, she already has the desired answer in mind. If I don't give her that answer, she calls me stupid..... well , into my adulthood.

For example, she has never studied French. So how to pronounce cetain words in this highly unphonetic language will surprise the uninitiated. The first time this happened, was in high school. So she had to top it off with, just what am I getting for the all that money she spends on me. Meanwhile, I get the French Cup when I graduate........

She tried it on last year as we were traveling and she noticed I was reading a bilingual tourist publication. I said sometimes these are good because the translations are side by side. She then pointed out how the names of the lakes aren't the same. ..... as if she achieved another Gotcha moment. I had to point out to her that even Lake of Geneva is called Lac Lemain by the Swiss, so no, not even names are always similar.

So yes, someone who is trying to catch you out can be tiring to be around.

Fortunately, my husband and I have fallen into a nice habit of deferring to one another. And if we still dis agree, we look it up.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

It is still much better to be an intelligent, educated woman in America than not, and educational level has steadily risen in the list of attributes men want from a wife. Perhaps men in general don't want a woman they perceive as smarter than themselves, but they still want an educated and intelligent woman.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/12/opinion/sunday/marriage-suits-educated-women.html

“Men now are increasingly likely to marry wives with more education and income than they have, and the reverse is true for women,” said Paul Fucito, spokesman for the Pew Center. “In recent decades, with the rise of well-paid working wives, the economic gains of marriage have been a greater benefit for men.”

The analysis examines Americans 30 to 44 years old, the first generation in which more women than men have college degrees. Women’s earnings have been increasing faster than men’s since the 1970s."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/19/us/19marriage.html

People have a VERY strong preference for marrying someone of roughly the same education level as themselves, both genders. The current college graduation disparity of 4 women for every 3 men is causing a bona fide man shortage for you college educated ladies.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> This what I have to deal with with my family. Particularly, my mother. I realise now that quite often when she is asking me a question, she already has the desired answer in mind. If I don't give her that answer, she calls me stupid..... well , into my adulthood.
> 
> For example, she has never studied French. So how to pronounce cetain words in this highly unphonetic language will surprise the uninitiated. The first time this happened, was in high school. So she had to top it off with, just what am I getting for the all that money she spends on me. Meanwhile, I get the French Cup when I graduate........
> 
> ...


My mom and dad have been married for almost 40 year, and I have two sisters and a brother in law. I have the least formal education of the lot, with a masters and two bachelors degrees, so formal education runs in my family. My mom got her PhD back when women went to college to get their Mrs degree. The thing with my parents is that they are just normal people, and you'll only ever really discover how educated, and truly smart they are through gradual conversation, that leave you thinking some time later...wow, they are really smart. They are just very grounded.

This sort of reminds me of the whole "They hate me because I'm beautiful.", or "They're just jealous." Umm no, they hate you because you're a lousy human being. It's just easier for some people to blame others than look at themselves, and often wrap it up in pejorative shaming words like intimidated, threatened, jealous...

I also think that in some cases, what may be perceived as the guy seeming threatened, is really just a case of him recognizing that finding a common ground to base a relationship on would be too difficult to find. This has nothing specifically to do with intelligence, but a broader incompatibility that simply manifests itself in the intellectual disparity, and it could just as easily have been any other area too.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> So I know what I think on this subject but how many very smart women would be good dating or marrying a less intelligent man?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I already mentioned this, that most of us do not want man who is not as smart. I guess we are just that deep


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> I already mentioned this, that most of us do not want man who is less smart. I guess we are just that deep


can you elaborate why this is?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> I already mentioned this, that most of us do not want man who is less smart. I guess we are just that deep


Well, I will share an observation and then log off for the day because Mrs. Conan is overdue for some quality time and serious ravaging.

I have noticed a persons "power" to be the best determinant of who they will attract and keep.

I have attracted women far more accomplished and easily smarter than me.

I have seen women who have a powerful presence and personality do the same.

It is hard to quantify but some people are fairly high on the "force of nature" scale.

I'm not a dimwit but I have royally trounced people with far more brain cells to rub together than me.

Willpower, confidence, force of personality, charisma, personal strength, conviction.

A person with these attributes in spades has a very wide selection of mates and highly intelligent men or women value these folks as mates regardless of their intelligence level.

The aforementioned folks aren't idiots but don't need to be the sharpest to attract many suitors.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> can you elaborate why this is?


I'm picky about smart because I was a smart kid that grew up in a neighborhood where smart was not valued by a lot of people, and I hated it. I hated the kids who thought it wasn't cool to be smart, and thought it was cool to not do their homework or study and who thought it was cool to be stupid. I also hated having few kindred spirits who liked to read and understood words instead of making fun of people who knew words and used them. 

High school was better because there were kids in my honors and AP classes who felt the same way I did, but that's a group of about 30 out of a class of 350. Smart was still thought of as uncool. Sneaking out of the house to drink down by the beach was thought of as cool. Getting D's and still passing to the next level was thought of as cool. Football and cheerleaders were cool. 

When I got to my university, it was hella cool! For the first time, I was surrounded by people who enjoyed learning and debating and discovering and reading and talking and discussing. Nobody thought studying and learning and knowing how to analyze and deconstruct and construct ideas and arguments was uncool. I finally had people I could talk with and enjoy.

So, yeah, I need people who value learning in my life, especially the person I'm going to be spending my life with.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> can you elaborate why this is?


For me is the same reason why my friends are also on my level - we just share common ground and can discuss things that interest me, and we all understand the basic concepts. We are equals in the relationship. We reaed books, we know politics, we are able of understanding what's happening around us and discuss it. it is all important to me.

Again - I belive yours spouse is supposed to be your ultimate friend, so it shoudl meet the same criteria I have for friends - we are on the same wavelegnth, and intelligence is part of it. It is not the ONLY requirement, but it is significant.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

My experience very much accords with the studies posted in the OP.  

I have quite literally watched guys back away slowly simply hearing what I do for a liviing, and they never did that when I pretended to be a stewardess and dumbed myself down.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Articles written by women about the true nature of men and what men are really like are almost as tiresome as articles written by men purporting to explain the same thing about women.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

smart, intelligence etc......

are relative terms. I know some men and women who can cram book knowledge into their brain and retain is just long enough to pass an exam. They speak and write eloquently. but are void of common sense.

so it begs the question. What is true intelligence?

someone who can learn from books or someone who is street smart. sometimes they overlap. But often (or in my experience) most times they don't. 

Everybody has deal breakers and if spelling poorly is a turn off then well you would be wise to make sure the person your dating makes the grade. 


I personally consider myself pretty smart I have taken IQ tests and score above average not genius level but a fair bit above average. But there are certain areas that I have always been poor at. spelling has always been difficult for me. subjects that are not interesting take awhile for me. But on the other hand things that interest me are very easy. 

common sense things are easy for me. Like don't carry a balance on your credit card. live within your means. save your money for the extra things you want. eat less move more. etc..

I know plenty of book smart people who make unwise decisions that ruin their families, that prohibit them from living a better life. And I now just as many more common sense people who have thrived and are well ahead of the so called intelligent people.

so who's smarter the person who can spell good and learn info just long enough to pass a test or the person who make good decisions that help him/her to thrive in life.

obviously a well rounded(as the Greek would say) person would be ideal.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> so who's smarter the person who can spell good and learn info just long enough to pass a test or the person who make good decisions that help him/her to thrive in life.


In my experience, this thread included, is that people will define smart as what they are good at, and discount the rest. 

Too cynical? Nah. Human nature, but not hard to overcome once you condition yourself to the effect. 

IQ scores get a bum rap. Ask any research psychologist (and I just happen to have one at home to ping) and they'll tell you that IQ is still the best correlator with success in life, hands down.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

norajane said:


> I'm picky about smart because I was a smart kid that grew up in a neighborhood where smart was not valued by a lot of people, and I hated it. I hated the kids who thought it wasn't cool to be smart, and thought it was cool to not do their homework or study and who thought it was cool to be stupid. I also hated having few kindred spirits who liked to read and understood words instead of making fun of people who knew words and used them.
> 
> High school was better because there were kids in my honors and AP classes who felt the same way I did, but that's a group of about 30 out of a class of 350. Smart was still thought of as uncool. Sneaking out of the house to drink down by the beach was thought of as cool. Getting D's and still passing to the next level was thought of as cool. Football and cheerleaders were cool.
> 
> ...


I relate very much to this.

My wife also grew up in similar circumstances and this was a major thing that we shared in common initially.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> For me is the same reason why my friends are also on my level - we just share common ground and can discuss things that interest me, and we all understand the basic concepts. We are equals in the relationship. We reaed books, we know politics, we are able of understanding what's happening around us and discuss it. it is all important to me.
> 
> Again - I belive yours spouse is supposed to be your ultimate friend, so it shoudl meet the same criteria I have for friends - we are on the same wavelegnth, and intelligence is part of it. It is not the ONLY requirement, but it is significant.


I definitely agree, but I thought you were saying you need the man to be smartER than you.

I think this is a relatively common thing for women but not clear to me why


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Cletus said:


> In my experience, this thread included, is that people will define smart as what they are good at, and discount the rest.
> 
> Too cynical? Nah. Human nature, but not hard to overcome once you condition yourself to the effect.
> 
> IQ scores get a bum rap. Ask any research psychologist (and I just happen to have one at home to ping) and they'll tell you that IQ is still the best correlator with success in life, hands down.


Interesting regarding IQs.

I've seen articles saying EQ as being a more important indicator as well as hard work/"grit"/discipline being more important. 

My guess is, if someone is lacking too much in ANY of those areas, there will be a lack of success. IQ without drive; IQ without people skills (unless you do autopsies, maybe?); EQ + drive might get you halfway there...

@ocotillo, the article may have been written by a woman but the actual test was conducted by both genders. I agree it is limited in scope. I brought it up for interesting discussion due to my personal experiences. I get the feeling from men I'm not "suppose" to know what a spark plug is, what it's for/how it works, what a "gap" is (or why it matters), where it goes or how many I need for a V6 vs. a 4-in-line, and other such typical male knowledge.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Cletus said:


> In my experience, this thread included, is that people will define smart as what they are good at, and discount the rest.
> 
> Too cynical? Nah. Human nature, but not hard to overcome once you condition yourself to the effect.
> 
> *IQ scores get a bum rap. Ask any research psychologist (and I just happen to have one at home to ping) and they'll tell you that IQ is still the best correlator with success in life, hands down*.


Perhaps. But maybe that depends on how you define success in life.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

always_alone said:


> My experience very much accords with the studies posted in the OP.
> 
> I have quite literally watched guys back away slowly simply hearing what I do for a liviing, and they never did that when I pretended to be a stewardess and dumbed myself down.


Couldn't you view this as a good thing though? Your honesty caused them to remove themselves from the possibility of wasting your time.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

A thought occurred to me while re-reading this thread today.

I remember breaking up with a girl when I was in my mid 20's. In fact, pretty soon before I met my wife. A friend of a friend.

She was really smart and driven... but had zero time for me or any kind of relationship. She would make plans and break them because of work, or I wouldn't see her for weeks (which is pretty hard when you've been dating for a few weeks only). 

When she wasn't working, she was volunteering. When she wasn't volunteering she was in classes.

And she was really smart and driven and beautiful and cool and I liked her. But she just had no time and a relationship (at least with me) wasn't a priority... (I confirmed she wasn't seeing anyone else).

So I finally said one night while on the phone with her when she pushed back another date that I respected her choices in life but I wanted to find someone who had time and energy for a relationship. She basically told me to F off and hung up.

Then I heard the next week through the grapevine that I was "intimidated by her intelligence and drive."

When it wasn't that at all. I was attracted to her intelligence and drive, but I wanted to actually be in a relationship with someone that was _present._


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

@marduk In her case it was a lack of EQ - she had no concept of what was needed in a relationship. Or at least in a relationship with YOU. Her love language wasn't quality time, obviously!

I've given honest thought to my relationships. I've scared a few off who probably thought they weren't "needed". I've got rid of a few who weren't right for me due to values or time or other reasons. I've abstained when I knew I didn't have time or energy for a relationship. I know I have to put in the time.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

EnjoliWoman said:


> @marduk In her case it was a lack of EQ - she had no concept of what was needed in a relationship. Or at least in a relationship with YOU. Her love language wasn't quality time, obviously!
> 
> I've given honest thought to my relationships. I've scared a few off who probably thought they weren't "needed". I've got rid of a few who weren't right for me due to values or time or other reasons. I've abstained when I knew I didn't have time or energy for a relationship. I know I have to put in the time.


I just think it wasn't high on her priorities, and I think she thought I should be happy with even a small fractional place in her life. Maybe some dudes would be, but I'm not one of them.

I think she was mad because she thought I would chase after whatever crumbs she threw my way, and I didn't.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

I think you can change the word smart to successful and have a better idea of what the real issue is.

Many people are smart, but have not turned that into career success.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I noticed that many of the male posters here turned the question around and said they weren't interested romantically in dumb women. But the issue at hand is how men react to women who, the men believe, are smarter than themselves. And the cited research shows the reactions are cool.

My experience with men is that it's fairly rare that they'll admit a woman is smarter than they are. They'll say intelligence is multi-faceted and very subjective, and then find a way to compare themselves favorably with the woman in question. They'll also readily admit to being equals. It's pretty rare, though, to find a man who says "my wife is smarter than me, and I have no problem with that." Since fully half of men are in such relationships, it shouldn't be so rare.

I remember being in college and meeting guys at parties. "What's your major" would always pop up pretty early in the conversation, and when I responded "I have a double major in physics and English," that was usually the end of it. I never even mentioned that I was editor of the school newspaper and in the honors program. When I would respond with a half-true "English," the conversations would continue.

Sometimes they'd flat out say something along the lines of, "wow, you're really smart then, huh?" and I'd say, "well, not really. Physics is like anything else--you learn it as you go along. It just seems complicated from the outside if you've missed any of the foundational steps along the way." Finally one day I stopped myself and just said, "yeah, I'm really smart." The guy nodded, said "that's cool," and found someone else to talk to. Oh well!

Now that I'm almost single again, and mature enough to not feel the need to play dumb, I wonder how dating will play out. We'll see, in a few years!


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I also noticed a few responses along the lines of, "Well, it's ok, as long as she doesn't act smug and superior and throw her intelligence in my face." But to turn that one around, maybe she's just being her incredibly intelligent self? Is not dumbing yourself down, to some people, arrogance?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

northernlights said:


> I also noticed a few responses along the lines of, "Well, it's ok, as long as she doesn't act smug and superior and throw her intelligence in my face." But to turn that one around, *maybe she's just being her incredibly intelligent self?* Is not dumbing yourself down, to some people, arrogance?


No. That would be her being her smug and superior self, which has nothing to do with her intelligence.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

@northernlights I would imagine that the response might be quite different outside of the college party context.

my memory of talking to girls at those types of parties was that asking about a major was like something you just say to keep the conversation going. 

the actual answer didn't even matter for either person unless you got too serious about it. 

it was one of those subtle social things where it was like, we're not really talking about school even though we're pretending to talk about it. 

I would frequently state my major and then immediately state that it was complete BS (even though I did not really think that). 

my only point is that guys act anti-intellectual too when the context seems to warrant it.

bottom line is that smart girls are hot and plenty of guys think so


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

northernlights said:


> Now that I'm almost single again, and mature enough to not feel the need to play dumb, I wonder how dating will play out. We'll see, in a few years!


If people want to date those of similar intelligence, and let's say you're two sigma from the mean, which is an IQ of 120 and still well below genius level, then you will be smarter than >97% of the men in the world. 

I would expect you to face more than average challenges in finding an intellectually compatible mate.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

northernlights said:


> Sometimes they'd flat out say something along the lines of, "wow, you're really smart then, huh?"


LoL. I've heard this sort of thing so many times, said as they slowly back away.

I dunno, this is just my personal experience, but I found the articles bang on. Lots of (most?) guys say they love a smart woman, but if you watch who they go for, and what they back away from, it's a different story. 

Which is not to say that they're going for "dumb as rocks". Just that they (seem to) want to be smartER.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

EnjoliWoman said:


> ocotillo, the article may have been written by a woman but the actual test was conducted by both genders.


I'm not criticizing the primary research. My problem is with the sensationalistic tone and arguably derogatory way it was spun by Ms. Adams in the Huffington Post. (My only criticism of Ms. Hill's write-up is with the title itself.) 

A study which suggests that men are less confident around women substantially more intelligent than themselves does not translate into a general intimidation with smart women for the simple reason that male intelligence is not a fixed point on the spectrum. 

When that simple fact is taken into account, what are we left with? Only that men and women tend to pair up with those at or around their own intelligence level, which probably falls into the realm of a factoid for how unremarkable it is. 

The reasons are slightly different, but everything I've read seems to indicate that women do exactly the same thing and again, there's nothing malevolent or patronizing about it. 




EnjoliWoman said:


> I get the feeling from men I'm not "suppose" to know what a spark plug is, what it's for/how it works, what a "gap" is (or why it matters), where it goes or how many I need for a V6 vs. a 4-in-line, and other such typical male knowledge.


I can picture a man being taken down a peg by a woman who could mentally calculate the crankshaft journal offset which solves the odd-fire problem of the V6, but a woman with good, solid working knowledge of automobiles is a treasure. 

--She's not going to escalate a $500 repair into a $5000 repair because it was too much trouble to stop and call AAA when the vehicle was overheating...  Any man who doesn't appreciate that is an idiot.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> When that simple fact is taken into account, what are we left with? Only that men and women tend to pair up with those at or around their own intelligence level, which probably falls into the realm of a factoid for how unremarkable it is.


I can't find the reference right now, but studies have shown this to be one of the marriage constraints we apply more strongly than almost any other, including race, age, and others.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Cletus said:


> If people want to date those of similar intelligence, and let's say you're two sigma from the mean, which is an IQ of 120 and still well below genius level, then you will be smarter than >97% of the men in the world.
> 
> I would expect you to face more than average challenges in finding an intellectually compatible mate.


Unfortunately for my prospects, I test well above that. I don't need a guy as smart as myself or smarter, but I need him in the ballpark. I think 130 is probably the minimum for a life partner.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

always_alone said:


> LoL. I've heard this sort of thing so many times, said as they slowly back away.
> 
> I dunno, this is just my personal experience, but I found the articles bang on. Lots of (most?) guys say they love a smart woman, but if you watch who they go for, and what they back away from, it's a different story.
> 
> Which is not to say that they're going for "dumb as rocks". Just that they (seem to) want to be smartER.


OMG yes yes yes to the slow back away.

and yes to everything else you wrote. Spot on.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

northernlights said:


> Unfortunately for my prospects, I test well above that. I don't need a guy as smart as myself or smarter, but I need him in the ballpark. I think 130 is probably the minimum for a life partner.


That's about 1 in 100 men. Which is fine, just be prepared to do A LOT of sifting.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Last tested, mine was 126. That was in the late 80s, though. I might have dropped a few points over the years! As I said, I'm not brilliant, I just tend to know a little more practical stuff than average due to my father's teachings. That makes men feel they aren't needed. They aren't - I've managed 11 years without one and can manage the rest of my life if I had to. But I don't want to. I don't NEED a man for his know-how. I WANT a man for companionship, workmate, lover...


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

My wife still beats me at scrabble, but she still desires me. I'm probably just a piece meat, but I don't care.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Last tested, mine was 126. That was in the late 80s, though. I might have dropped a few points over the years! As I said, I'm not brilliant, I just tend to know a little more practical stuff than average due to my father's teachings. That makes men feel they aren't needed. They aren't - I've managed 11 years without one and can manage the rest of my life if I had to. But I don't want to. I don't NEED a man for his know-how. I WANT a man for companionship, workmate, lover...



I have ADHD, so I kind of do need a man who can remember things like registering the car and paying bills... I'm shockingly incapable of many things!!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

EW,
I love what you wrote below. As you correctly point out there are many types of intelligence. 

Lets extend that theme by considering two very different types of intelligence: IQ and EQ. 

So now let's map folks into four quadrants:
1. High, high (IQ and EQ)
2. High, low
3. Low, high
4. Low, low

1. High high 
These folks tend to be good companions. They are secure and have good interpersonal skills. They are also traditionally smart, and are good at logical and analytical thinking. 

This is the type person who, after you meet them you realize that they are really smart, and yet over time you realize they make sure not to do things which cause you to feel dumb. Mainly they collaborate with you, they don't compete. They get a good feeling from being helpful, and don't need to feed their ego at your expense. 

2. High Low 
These folks are the dumbest fvcking smart people you meet. They have a compulsive, insecurity driven need to make sure you know they are smarter than you. This also makes them exhausting. When you ask them a question, instead of giving you a clear concise answer, they tell you everything they know on the subject - before - getting to the answer. 

3. These folks are usually pretty easy to be around. They know they aren't traditionally smart, and have no need to pretend otherwise. 

4. This is just the ugly reality of life. These folks have been dealt a bad hand. 

With that bucketing in hand it's pretty easy to see who gets on with who. And who doesn't. 

Ones get on great with other ones and are also compatible with twos. Twos don't get on that great with other twos, because they tend to compete instead of collaborating. 





EnjoliWoman said:


> Interesting and candid replies - thank you.
> 
> It also doesn't take into consideration different types and applications of intelligence. Practical, applied knowledge like plumbing or electrical wiring seems very complex and confusing to me. Does that make someone smarter? Does that make ME dumber?
> 
> ...


----------



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> @northernlights
> my memory of talking to girls at those types of parties was that asking about a major was like something you just say to keep the conversation going.
> 
> the actual answer didn't even matter for either person unless you got too serious about it.
> ...


Did you ever have girls turn around and walk away from you when you told them your major? Because that's the reaction I got. The whole idea here is that men respond differently to women who they believe are smarter than they are than women respond to men who they believe to be smarter than they are. Our entirely different experiences with this same conversation are what you'd expect if this research is true.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

northernlights said:


> Did you ever have girls turn around and walk away from you when you told them your major? Because that's the reaction I got. The whole idea here is that men respond differently to women who they believe are smarter than they are than women respond to men who they believe to be smarter than they are. Our entirely different experiences with this same conversation are what you'd expect if this research is true.


They probably did.

Guys get shot down for lots of petty reasons. Things a lot dumber than this even.

I'm not saying it doesn't sting, only that in the environment you described it's not surprising that it happened.

It doesn't necessarily mean that what happened there and then is an accurate prediction of what would happen if you gave the same answer in a more adult forum.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> EW,
> I love what you wrote below. As you correctly point out there are many types of intelligence.
> 
> Lets extend that theme by considering two very different types of intelligence: IQ and EQ.
> ...


the other thing is that there are variations of 1, 2, 3 and 4s too.

You might have 2, 3 or 4 who is lacking in some capacity but who has the self awareness to realize he/she is lacking.

That is a big difference from a 2, 3 or 4 who thinks he/she is Mr./Ms. Perfect

There are people who lack innate emotional sense but who clearly try very hard to overcome that. That effort means a lot.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

northernlights said:


> The whole idea here is that men respond differently to women who they believe are smarter than they are than women respond to men who they believe to be smarter than they are.


That's popularly held to be a vestige of patriarchy. 

The reality is that unusually intelligent people of both genders are going to struggle a bit, which is a fact made even worse by the stereotype of intelligent people as boring and unattractive. 

It seems to be the subject of considerable humor when the shoe is on the other foot and the unusually intelligent man is spurned in favor of the football player. (Who hasn't watched _The I.T. Crowd_ or _The Big Bang Theory_?)


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

northernlights said:


> I have ADHD, so I kind of do need a man who can remember things like registering the car and paying bills... I'm shockingly incapable of many things!!


this is super key-- recognizing this stuff.

To Mem's point above, one type of intelligence is really not more valuable than another. Very few people are gifted all around. 

if you are very intelligent on an abstract reasoning level, but are low scoring on a practical intelligence level, are you really more intelligent overall  than a man who is the reverse?

This is not meant as a barb or as a competitive thing, but I think if people could better recognize that different types of abilities are equally worthy (just different) it can open eyes that there are different kinds of matches available.

People can compliment one another rather than just be male/female versions of the same thing.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Anon,

Yes - I abstracted it to those two dimensions for simplicity sake. 

To get a more accurate sense of it, ideally you'd map folks onto two separate spider charts. IQ typically has 4 and EQ around a dozen. 

And you are right about self awareness. It's a hugely important aspect of EQ for the reasons you mentioned. 




QUOTE=Anon1111;14016641]the other thing is that there are variations of 1, 2, 3 and 4s too.

You might have 2, 3 or 4 who is lacking in some capacity but who has the self awareness to realize he/she is lacking.

That is a big difference from a 2, 3 or 4 who thinks he/she is Mr./Ms. Perfect

There are people who lack innate emotional sense but who clearly try very hard to overcome that. That effort means a lot.[/QUOTE]


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

This theory of multiple intelligences that's getting thrown around here so casually? It does not have wide support in mainstream psychology. It's ad hoc, has no predictive value (as in the predictions it does make are not born out in reality), and lacks empirical evidence. 

Just thought that should be stated outright.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Cletus said:


> This theory of multiple intelligences that's getting thrown around here so casually? It does not have wide support in mainstream psychology. It's ad hoc, has no predictive value (as in the predictions it does make are not born out in reality), and lacks empirical evidence.
> 
> Just thought that should be stated outright.


predictive value of what?

Edit: do you really believe there is no variance of ability on anything other than abstract reasoning?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> predictive value of what?


For instance - the different intelligences, if they form a proper orthogonal basis set for describing overall intelligence, should show low correlation one to another.

They don't. They are highly correlated. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_multiple_intelligences

The people who are good at abstract reasoning also typically do well on the other measures, at least in the aggregate.

(Gardner is considered the father of the theory and is quoted below: )

"To date there have been no published studies that offer evidence of the validity of the multiple intelligences. In 1994 Sternberg reported finding no empirical studies. In 2000 Allix reported finding no empirical validating studies, and at that time Gardner and Connell conceded that there was "little hard evidence for MI theory" (2000, p. 292). In 2004 Sternberg and Grigerenko stated that there were no validating studies for multiple intelligences, and in 2004 Gardner asserted that he would be "delighted were such evidence to accrue",[38] and admitted that "MI theory has few enthusiasts among psychometricians or others of a traditional psychological background" because they require "psychometric or experimental evidence that allows one to prove the existence of the several intelligences."[38][39]"


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Cletus said:


> For instance - the different intelligences, if they form a proper orthogonal basis set for describing overall intelligence, should show low correlation one to another.
> 
> They don't. They are highly correlated.
> 
> ...


OK, you mean to tell me you've never met a math genius who couldn't tie his shoes or have a 5 minute conversation with someone?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

There are a lot of non-genius level IQ people in the world who vastly outperform so called geniuses.

One common point I used to hear frequently was: "If he's so smart, why isn't he rich?"


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Cletus,

Are you saying IQ and EQ are highly correlated? 





Cletus said:


> For instance - the different intelligences, if they form a proper orthogonal basis set for describing overall intelligence, should show low correlation one to another.
> 
> They don't. They are highly correlated.
> 
> ...


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> OK, you mean to tell me you've never met a math genius who couldn't tie his shoes or have a 5 minute conversation with someone?


Doesn't matter what I have or haven't encountered. That's an anecdote. We expect more from a theory. Perhaps the math whiz could carry on a conversation all day long if she found it worth her while. Maybe she's just a whole lot less interested in doing it than you or I. 

When even the creator of the theory throws in the towel and agrees that there's no empirical evidence, I certainly listen.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Cletus,
> 
> Are you saying IQ and EQ are highly correlated?


I am saying that the science of psychology, as far as it goes, doesn't recognize EQ as a separate intelligence.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> There are a lot of non-genius level IQ people in the world who vastly outperform so called geniuses.
> 
> One common point I used to hear frequently was: "If he's so smart, why isn't he rich?"


Why is there an implicit assumption that a genius must be motivated to material wealth? 

Did Einstein develop relativity to get rich?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm just the messenger here, folks. The MI model is popular in our culture, but don't blame me if it doesn't enjoy any support among the experts. 

As appealing as it may be to the average man, it still has to pass the tests of theoretical rigor to become supportable.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I think it's obvious that there ARE multiple ways to be intelligent, and that some of those types of intelligences correlate better to "success" than others.

I had a boyfriend once who wasn't super bright in the classical IQ sense, but OMFG what an incredible musician. Unfortunately, he had a drinking problem (at 20) that was as big as his talent, and I don't know what happened to him. 

So, yeah, there are definitely so many places that a person can be strong or weak in that it becomes hard to say if one person is "smarter" than another. But I think we all know people who have super high IQs and that means something specific too. 

Like, for example, family member of a dear friend of mine was Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court. That guy was BRILLIANT, and his abilities carried across all kinds of fields. IQ isn't everything in success, but it does correlate well with a lot of things. Not the be all and end all, but not meaningless.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> That's popularly held to be a vestige of patriarchy.
> 
> The reality is that unusually intelligent people of both genders are going to struggle a bit, which is a fact made even worse by the stereotype of intelligent people as boring and unattractive.


But again, the OP pointed to research supporting the idea that unusually intelligent women, who are smarter than most men, have MORE trouble than unusually intelligent men. Though I'm certainly helping lead this thread off the rails, I don't want to obscure the original point of it!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Cletus,
Well said. 

I recently read the David McCullough book on the Wright brothers. They were brilliant. And true geniuses. But as one of the two of them observed early on, business is typically conducted as a type of civilized warfare. And that aggression was often more important to success than almost any other attribute. 

Silly me, I believed the EQ book authors claims, without doing any further research. Honestly the University professors I knew did seem less interpersonally abled than the business execs I know. 

But that's purely anecdotal. 




Cletus said:


> Why is there an implicit assumption that a genius must be motivated to material wealth?
> 
> Did Einstein develop relativity to get rich?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I think her premise is valid. 

QUOTE=northernlights;14017449]But again, the OP pointed to research supporting the idea that unusually intelligent women, who are smarter than most men, have MORE trouble than unusually intelligent men. Though I'm certainly helping lead this thread off the rails, I don't want to obscure the original point of it![/QUOTE]


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## karazy (Aug 31, 2015)

Many, many people, both men and women, act very arrogant when they "think" they are intelligent. In turn, the opposite sex is turned off and they question why and find articles like what you posted.

I don't think men are intimated by smart women as a less smart partner is very unattractive and embarrassing to have around. It also makes life with the person harder since they are not bright enough to resolve issues. Everyone wants to be proud of their partner.

Just like a wealthy man going around announcing how much money he has--this is very, very unattractive.

A woman can be extremely intelligent and lovable and she needs to find men at her level. I doubt a male attorney/doctor would be intimidated by a female attorney/doctor.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Cletus,
> Well said.
> 
> I recently read the David McCullough book on the Wright brothers.


It's on my list.



> They were brilliant. And true geniuses. But as one of the two of them observed early on, business is typically conducted as a type of civilized warfare. And that aggression was often more important to success than almost any other attribute.


The brightest people I've ever know personally were interested in what they were interested in. Sometimes to the exclusion of everything else. It's not that they couldn't run a business if they put their mind to it, it's just that they didn't care. It wasn't important to them.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> It doesn't necessarily mean that what happened there and then is an accurate prediction of what would happen if you gave the same answer in a more adult forum.


I hope this is true, but again, the article in the OP suggests that if men think I'm objectively smarter than they are, they'll judge me harshly. I hope the research is wrong, but it jives with the experiences of so many women that it's something we consider common knowledge.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

@Cletus

My point with the money thing was that it is an equally superficial measure of ability as some artificial intelligence test. 

Are people who make a lot of money on average smarter than people who don't? Probably. 

But it is totally absurd to extrapolate from this that unless you are rich you are not smart. 

I get it that you are just repeating a theory.

But the idea that the quality of a mind is reduceable to the results of 1 test seems pretty absurd on its face.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

People aren't intimidated by smart they're intimidated by arrogance.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

northernlights said:


> But again, the OP pointed to research supporting the idea that unusually intelligent women, who are smarter than most men, have MORE trouble than unusually intelligent men.


Is that what you took away from Park _et al_ ?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Is that what you took away from Park _et al_ ?


No, that's an inference from research plus personal experience. 

Only read some news articles, not the original research, but the articles conclude that on the average, a man will score a woman as less desirable and less attractive if he believes she is smarter than he is. I'm stating that this supports my belief that dating is harder for intelligent women than it is for intelligent men. Unless you can come up with some evidence that women behave similarly towards men they believe to be smarter than them?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Runs like Dog said:


> People aren't intimidated by smart they're intimidated by arrogance.


I think arrogance is sometimes defined as "smarter than I, and it is obvious."


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I used to think that I knew all of these really smart people who could crush anything they chose to do. 

As I've gotten older and seen how hard it is to actually execute things in the world, I have developed a different view. 

There are extremely few people who are truly talented in more than a couple of areas. 

The real world is extremely complex. Logic and test taking ability is a tiny fraction of available knowledge/skill. 

The most important knowledge is never taught explicitly and never tested explicitly. 

I realize none of this is empirically verifiable but I think that anyone can see this for themselves by examining life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Northernlights, is being with an intelligent man as important to you as being with a secure man?

I think a secure man is okay with however intelligent his wife is. He sees her superior intelligence in whatever area as a plus for their marital team, not something to feel threatened by.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

jld said:


> Northernlights, is being with an intelligent man as important to you as being with a secure man?
> 
> I think a secure man is okay with however intelligent his wife is. He sees her superior intelligence in whatever area as a plus for their marital team, not something to feel threatened by.


Yeah, both are equally important. He doesn't have to be as smart as me, but after a failed marriage to a guy who is just SO different from me in every way (culturally, interests, intelligence, motivation, hobbies, sex drive, you name it!), I'm hedging my bets and looking for similarities next time (if there is a next time!).


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

northernlights said:


> Yeah, both are equally important. He doesn't have to be as smart as me, but after a failed marriage to a guy who is just SO different from me in every way (culturally, interests, intelligence, motivation, hobbies, sex drive, you name it!), I'm hedging my bets and looking for similarities next time (if there is a next time!).


Good idea. There is much to be said for natural compatibility.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

northernlights said:


> No, that's an inference from research plus personal experience.


Published studies (At least the ones that I've read) indicate that both men and women seek out partners of comparable intelligence. David Buss, for example, points out that the two most highly ranked characteristics in a romantic partner by both men and women were, "kind and understanding" and "intelligent." 

Christine Whelan in the book _Why Smart Men Marry Smart Women_ debunks the myth that men are intimidated by intelligent women, pointing out (Among other things) that smart, intelligent, successful women marry in the exact same rates as other women. 



northernlights said:


> Unless you can come up with some evidence that women behave similarly towards men they believe to be smarter than them?


Let's be clear on what similarity is here. The two summaries linked to by the OP are sensationalized, one horribly so.


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## Nynaeve (Jun 19, 2013)

I have actually had a handful of guys use the word "intimidating" to describe me. Most often it was when I said I was a lawyer. "Oh wow," they would say, "so you're really smart then. That's intimidating." *Backs away.*

That was always amusing to me. Annoying those times I was just looking for a fun time flirting at the bar. But I never could be interested in a relationship with a guy who wasn't as smart as I. And I do think it made finding someone more difficult. I was 30 before I had my first actual possible mate. Lol. He was an electrical engineer and I think even he was a bit intimidated by me. He wanted to be the smart one. 

My husband has told me that he thinks I'm smarter than he. But I don't think there's a significant difference. I'm a little quicker is all. We have the same level of education and carry on intelligent conversations. I couldn't be happy with someone I didn't have that with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think it is important to be able to respect each other. And that cannot be forced. True respect is always earned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

It was a neat study but it didn't point to a similar study with the gender reversed. Because of that I think the article is a little disingenuous. It's not just intelligence that makes us guarded. We're probably more likely to look for slights or condescension when around people of super high success or IQ and certainly so when we're young.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

I didn't read the entire thread yet, but I will say this.

I like smart women, I enjoy the company of smart women. My wife is one, my mother is one and it looks like my little daughter will turn out to be one (or at least we hope so). I have some female friends who are smart and intelligent and I enjoy a good intellectual joust with them.

That said, I don't like it when the ugly feminazi aspect raises its ugly head and when women start flinging put-downs on men unless it is done in jest when I know the woman well. But many are serious and carry a chip on their shoulder. I have had 5 female bosses and only 1 has been outstanding and nice. The other 4 have been b***hes who got a kick out of being able to order men around. 
This above is just me. My wife used to hint for a long time how she was capable and how I was not so much when all the material luxuries she had was earned by me. 

Also, yes, I can see some men being threatened. It is like some women are b***hes, some are sweet, some are crazy and some are hot.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Published studies (At least the ones that I've read) indicate that both men and women seek out partners of comparable intelligence. David Buss, for example, points out that the two most highly ranked characteristics in a romantic partner by both men and women were, "kind and understanding" and "intelligent."
> 
> Christine Whelan in the book _Why Smart Men Marry Smart Women_ debunks the myth that men are intimidated by intelligent women, pointing out (Among other things) that smart, intelligent, successful women marry in the exact same rates as other women.
> 
> ...


So, again, the two studies referenced by the articles the OP linked to examine not just what men say about their preferences (85% say hey have no trouble with women who are smarter than they are), but how they react when confronted with a living, breathing woman whom they are told is smarter than they are. And those reactions are, on the average, to rate her as less attractive and desirable. If you're calling the articles sensationalized because you've read the original research, then my all means share the effect sizes!

Noting that smart women marry at the same rates as smart men proves nothing. It could be that men who are married to women who are smarter than they are convince themselves otherwise, or that enough women play dumb to overcome the bias. 

Don't discount the experience of women here who are telling you that yes, this happens, and it's overt enough that we consider it common knowledge.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> It was a neat study but it didn't point to a similar study with the gender reversed. Because of that I think the article is a little disingenuous. g.


Is there one? I'll look for it, but send a link if you've got one!!


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> It was a neat study but it didn't point to a similar study with the gender reversed. Because of that I think the article is a little disingenuous.
> 
> 
> northernlights said:
> ...


I didn't search for one so I don't know but it seems like whoever performed this study would have been interested to know how much of these results were based on gender. In other words I think the study it's self is interesting. Just incomplete.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Cletus said:


> If people want to date those of similar intelligence, and let's say you're two sigma from the mean, which is an IQ of 120 and still well below genius level, then you will be smarter than >97% of the men in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> I would expect you to face more than average challenges in finding an intellectually compatible mate.



I'm just three to four sigmas from the mean and it is true. But not because I need to find a matching person. It's because the intelligence pushes me towards certain things and away from others. Hence I prune down the number of likely matches quite a bit...


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

Personal said:


> As tested I have a genius level IQ and have high order interpersonal skills, and I am not threatened by smart women.


Are they threatened by you?


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

northernlights said:


> If you're calling the articles sensationalized because you've read the original research...


Both articles make the claim that "...men are threatened by smart women..." One author expanded on that idea and made claims that are in no way supported by the primary research. The other (To her credit) went to some length to qualify her usage of the plural. 




northernlights said:


> Noting that smart women marry at the same rates as smart men proves nothing.


I'm sure you realize that there is more to a 256 page book than that one sentence. Ms. Whelan gives a blow by blow description of how this myth was born; how it got fixed into public consciousness and how it became, "common knowledge" 

Her observation about marriage rates was a direct response to Maureen Dowd's 2005 book, _Are Men Necessary?_ and should be evaluated in that context. 




northernlights said:


> Don't discount the experience of women here who are telling you that yes, this happens, and it's overt enough that we consider it common knowledge.


I don't discount it all. I've raised three daughters and they all hold advanced degrees. My wife is a (retired) professor. I had five sisters, one of which skipped two grades in school. I'm about as familiar as a man can possibly be when it comes to the challenges an intelligent woman faces in the dating world. 

My bone of contention with the two articles is that this is a human problem far moreso than it is a gender problem. You do realize, for example that the metaphorical "Itching powder in the pants" of the MGTOW / Red Pill crowd is the exact inverse of your experience? (i.e. That intelligent men are pretty much spurned by the majority of women.) And that men feel the exact same frustration?


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

I didn't read the entire thread either. But I think one reason men may be intimidated by smart women is because of culture. Men are enculturated to be the provider. When they meet a woman they perceive to be be smarter than they are, they are taken aback. I also think that having been divorced and feeling the worthlessness that goes with being divorced (at least initially) plays a role.
I never thought my ex was as intelligent as I was. I thought she was intelligent, but not as intelligent as I am. OTOH I like to think that I am very intelligent. Maybe not as much as I like to think?


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Cletus said:


> If people want to date those of similar intelligence, and let's say you're two sigma from the mean, which is an IQ of 120 and still well below genius level, then you will be smarter than >97% of the men in the world.
> 
> I would expect you to face more than average challenges in finding an intellectually compatible mate.


Honestly, my IQ is higher than 120, and I really don't have all that much trouble finding intellectually compatible men to date. I mean, I'm not overrun with them, but I meet enough of them that it's not something I think of as being particularly problematic. You may not find guys who have a similar level of formal education, but finding suitably bright, funny, witty, capable, successful men really hasn't been an issue. 

And I'm in one of those parts of the country that the rest of the nation would likely consider devoid of such creatures.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Mr The Other said:


> The problem comes when someone is believed they are smarter than their partner and that that difference is an important one. The woman will be smarter half the time and the man smarter half the time.


Nope. While the median is not much different, "beyond the 130 cut-off, the ratio of the areas under the curve for males and females is about 2:1." See http://iqcomparisonsite.com/SexDifferences.aspx.

I suspect a lot of the contributors here are in that demographic...


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Satya said:


> Constable Odo told me early on that the difference in having an emotionally, worldly, and intelligently present woman in his life rather than the alternative in his past was like night and day.
> 
> It was the difference between eagerly looking forward to coming home, ready to embrace stimulating conversation vs. dreading coming home, knowing you'll be ignored, to your gf sitting on the couch, mudslide in hand, glued to "Alaskan Ice Road Truckers" on TV.


Correction: it's "Ice Road Truckers", and it happens to be in Canada this season.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

I just want to say I have no issues with being with or dating a smarter women.. I have other insecurities about women which mostly stem around sex and sexuality and sexual prowess.. 

But smart women are hot.. I love my GF but I'm not gonna lie if I met a sexy woman who talked about TCP and UDP and firewall logs.. It would be rough to keep myself at bay..


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

northernlights said:


> Unfortunately for my prospects, I test well above that. I don't need a guy as smart as myself or smarter, but I need him in the ballpark. I think 130 is probably the minimum for a life partner.


Yes, I think that is going to be a problem for you.

However, a lot of (or maybe all) other physicists are in the same range or higher, so I would imagine you would have some prospects in professional societies, etc.

Are you a programmer too? If so, that's another area where a lot of very high IQ males congregate.

But of course you'll also have to contend with chemistry... not the scientific discipline, of course. >


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> There are a lot of non-genius level IQ people in the world who vastly outperform so called geniuses.
> 
> One common point I used to hear frequently was: "If he's so smart, why isn't he rich?"


Maybe he doesn't think being rich is interesting?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Why am I not surprised that this is turning into an IQ swinging contest?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Hardtohandle said:


> But smart women are hot.. I love my GF but I'm not gonna lie if I met a sexy woman who talked about TCP and UDP and firewall logs.. It would be rough to keep myself at bay..


Lol. No comment just lol.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

technovelist said:


> Maybe he doesn't think being rich is interesting?


I was trying to draw an analogy between the superficiality of IQ tests as a measure of intelligence and wealth tests as a measure of intelligence.

There are very vocal communities that put a lot of faith in each and each is totally myopic.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Gotta be honest, any time I hear someone bragging about their genius level IQ I assume they're not so bright.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

technovelist said:


> Are you a programmer too? If so, that's another area where a lot of very high IQ males congregate.
> )



Let's not get carried away


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Anon1111 said:


> There are a lot of non-genius level IQ people in the world who vastly outperform so called geniuses.
> 
> One common point I used to hear frequently was: "If he's so smart, why isn't he rich?"


Doing well on an exam, which is a fairly passive activity, requires different skills than asking for the salary / compensation that you want and sweating it out until you get it.

I'm sure you have noticed that the people who usually get ahead in business are the ones who are better at office politics. I would measure that by EQ not IQ.

this is why you usually have a pairing with the "smart" person creating the product and the business person commercialising it.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Cletus said:


> I am saying that the science of psychology, as far as it goes, doesn't recognize EQ as a separate intelligence.


From Psychology Today:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/emotional-intelligence

From Psych Central:
What is Emotional Intelligence (EQ)? | Psych Central

And a book entitled "Emotional Intelligence" written by Daniel Goleman, Psychologist:
Daniel Goleman - Emotional Intelligence


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> I'm sure you have noticed that the people who usually get ahead in business are the ones who are better at office politics. I would measure that by EQ not IQ.


It does seem that people who rise in the business world are often good at politics. They know how to make the right people feel good.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> Doing well on an exam, which is a fairly passive activity, requires different skills than asking for the salary / compensation that you want and sweating it out until you get it.
> 
> I'm sure you have noticed that the people who usually get ahead in business are the ones who are better at office politics. I would measure that by EQ not IQ.
> 
> this is why you usually have a pairing with the "smart" person creating the product and the business person commercialising it.


I agree completely.

My point (which I think you are affirming) is that is the so called "smart" guy really smarter than the so called "effective" business guy, or is it more accurate to say that they are perhaps equally smart, just differently talented?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Also, these exams assume certain baseline skills, e.g., language.

Believe it or not, there are actually very smart people in the world who have language disabilities. These tests completely fail to measure the intelligence of these people.

Again, it is really laughable to assert that something as dynamic as intelligence can be captured by one particular exam.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> Gotta be honest, any time I hear someone bragging about their genius level IQ I assume they're not so bright.


or insecure for some reason


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think you can feel intelligence in people. And you just know when you are with people smarter than yourself. You find yourself listening to what they have to say, even when you initially disagree. You know you can learn from them, even if it hurts your pride a little.

My opinion, anyway.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jorgegene said:


> or insecure for some reason


Not much different than the self proclaimed alpha man who makes sure everybody knows how alpha they are...and when they get rejected, or women aren't sufficiently wowed by their alphaness, the women are just more of those women who say they want a real man, but can't handle one when they get one.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Smart people usually work for dumb people. That's a given. There's not that many smart people to go around.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

When you really think about it, there are so many unconventional expressions of intelligence that people see every day but by and large fail to recognize as "intelligence" because it doesn't meet the bookworm definition.

For example, a guy like Tom Brady is basically a genius. He may or may not have a genius level IQ, but just sit and think about how rapidly this guy's mind can process a vast amount of complex information once the football is snapped and in his hands.

Can you imagine trying to build a robot that could perform this level of dynamic calculation? Seriously mind boggling.

This is just one example. You can look at almost any human endeavor and see unconventionally intelligent people kicking @ss and realize how complex the task really is and how they can execute with ease where most would utterly fail no matter how hard they try.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

I would guess no one is sitting around looking at IQ scores when they're dating. Whatever subjective measures people use to determine "intelligence" in a prospective dating partner is just that, subjective.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Nynaeve said:


> I have actually had a handful of guys use the word "intimidating" to describe me. Most often it was when I said I was a lawyer. "Oh wow," they would say, "so you're really smart then. That's intimidating." *Backs away.*
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It might that they had a bad experience with a (lady) lawyer or another woman who has a high powered well paid job.

I've known a few types. they have a tendency to look down on other women who aren't working or who are not making as much as they are. I have heard the expression "just a housewife" before.

They have no problems treating you like hired help. Calling you to find out "what's going on." And before they accept the invitation will then proceed to ask who else is coming and what do they do for a living. 

I noticed when I started putting in proper boundaries, encouraging them to suggest something to do instead of expecting me to provide the entertainment ALL THE TIME, I stopped hearing from these two women, in particular.

So yes, my experience makes me cautious around women who have high powered jobs. I don't see why a man who has had similar experiences would NOT want to be careful as well.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Let's not get carried away with Tom Brady.... It's easy to be a star when your opposition is Jay Cutler or Grandpa Manning.

Football is all about studying the opponent and practice. You don't see much improvisation to the level that it would make a difference. Not in every play.

There is spatial intelligence and practice and muscle memory and all that but there's no intelligence in making free throws from half court.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

technovelist said:


> Nope. While the median is not much different, "beyond the 130 cut-off, the ratio of the areas under the curve for males and females is about 2:1." See http://iqcomparisonsite.com/SexDifferences.aspx.
> 
> I suspect a lot of the contributors here are in that demographic...


The link does not seem relevant to my statement. I wrote about how intelligent people perceive themselves to be in comparison to their partner.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Intelligence as measured by a IQ test isn't all that interesting. There are a lot of mental abilities: creativity, ability to express oneself, memory, confidence, knowledge, etc that all combine to give an overall picture.

I think most people like to be with someone who is an interesting conversationalist. Most people do not like to be with a mental "bully".


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

I was more academic than my ex was, much better at school, memorization etc. My ex was more quick on the fly than I was, witty, etc, whereas I come up with my best comebacks the next day. My ex was way better at manipulating people, while I was socially shy.

I got my need for intellectual discourse with my colleagues, and let my ex do all the work at social gatherings or in conversations about things which interested both of us.

The relationship didn't fail due to one of us being smarter or feeling threatened by the intelligence of the other. That said, as that marriage still failed, I'm interested in finding intellectual equals to date, just to have a change of pace! It might be nice not to always be accused of overanalyzing things all the time, and to find someone who is willing to do self-analysis and grow from it.

Maybe my marriage DID fail due to intelligence differences!


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

karazy said:


> I doubt a male attorney/doctor would be intimidated by a female attorney/doctor.


You'd be surprised then. It's actually a pretty common relationship problem, when a woman outperforms a man or is more successful than he is. Sure, he wants someone of "equivalent" intelligence, but I've seen it more than once among professionals: the barbs and undermining that comes out when for whatever reason she is proving herself more capable.

This is anecdote to be sure, but I've seen it time and time again, where a woman feels she needs to hide her light to appease her guy. Or the break up.

I've never seen the reverse scenario, where she cannot stand his success and feels the need to tear him down for being "more".


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## Nynaeve (Jun 19, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> It might that they had a bad experience with a (lady) lawyer or another woman who has a high powered well paid job.
> 
> I've known a few types. they have a tendency to look down on other women who aren't working or who are not making as much as they are. I have heard the expression "just a housewife" before.
> 
> ...




Yes, let's just ignore what they said to me about it and instead make up an elaborate back story, projecting your personal experiences and fair bit of prejudice against career women to explain away the obvious. Sure. Sounds legit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Nynaeve said:


> Yes, let's just ignore what they said to me about it and instead make up an elaborate back story, projecting your personal experiences and fair bit of prejudice against career women to explain away the obvious. Sure. Sounds legit.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


People do make decisions on how to go forward based on their past experiences.

I'm sure you do too.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Nynaeve said:


> I have actually had a handful of guys use the word "intimidating" to describe me. Most often it was when I said I was a lawyer. "Oh wow," they would say, "so you're really smart then. That's intimidating." *Backs away.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I always refused to date lawyers.

I just don't like to constantly argue in annoying way that lawyers are so good at.

A buddy married a lawyer. He literally could not open his mouth without getting into an arguement, and losing.

Everything was a fight. 

I know a few male lawyers who are like this to their wives, too.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

They're master-debaters


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## Nynaeve (Jun 19, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> People do make decisions on how to go forward based on their past experiences.
> 
> I'm sure you do too.


Indeed. But that does not mean that in the instances I was speaking of that's what those guys were doing. They *said* "you must be smart. That's intimidating." Or something along those lines. To discount what they said and instead presume that they had some past experience with lawyers is illogical. Also, highly unlikely considering where I live and met these guys.



marduk said:


> I always refused to date lawyers.
> 
> I just don't like to constantly argue in annoying way that lawyers are so good at.
> 
> ...


1. Says the guy who spends how many hours a day on TAM going point counterpoint with others? 


2. You knew a few lawyers that you think are annoying therefore ALL lawyers are that way? That's the definition of prejudice, Marduk.

3. In my experience, people who say they don't like lawyers because we argue a lot don't really dislike arguing so much as they dislike losing arguments.

Sorry you've had bad experiences with lawyers, Marduk. But thanks for insulting us all. That's helpful.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Nynaeve said:


> 3. In my experience, people who say they don't like lawyers because we argue a lot don't really dislike arguing so much as they dislike losing arguments.


I think this is it.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

I've been around a lot of smart women but haven't experienced this group of smart career women who look down on everyone. Or the female doctors, lawyers, and business owners who do it. What I do see a lot is everyone around them assuming that they do it and confirmation bias spinning out of control. People's guards are always up looking for a slight and being really careful to speak and act smart to avoid being judged as dumb. In the process they are uncomfortable around smart people because it's a lot of work putting on their smart face. I would not have guessed Nynaeve is a lawyer based on her comments at TAM. She sounds like any other smart poster here with logical opinions. But some posters who know she's a lawyer now will likely be looking for how her comments are talking down to them.

On the contrary, my experience is the most abrasive men and women have been those trying to act smart but not really believing they are. The quickest to be snarky and try to point out what others are doing wrong are usually the one incompetent at their own jobs. I've found this to be especially true in business meetings with other companies who may become customers. It's pretty much a guaranteed that the decision makers in the room are pleasant and polite.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Nynaeve said:


> Indeed. But that does not mean that in the instances I was speaking of that's what those guys were doing. They *said* "you must be smart. That's intimidating." Or something along those lines. To discount what they said and instead presume that they had some past experience with lawyers is illogical. Also, highly unlikely considering where I live and met these guys.


Nynaeve, people will say anything to let you down nicely.


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## Nynaeve (Jun 19, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> Nynaeve, people will say anything to let you down nicely.



And apparently go to great lengths to avoid the obvious. As you seem to be doing.

Why can't it just be that they said what they were thinking?

It's really interesting to me how quickly people will fill in details from their own imagination to make everything fit their own narrative.

I sketched out only the barest of context for my experiences. But you jumped immediately to them having a history with lawyers or other career women - even though you know nothing of the men in question, the likelihood of them ever having met a female attorney before me, etc. And when that didn't work out, now your explanation is that they were trying to reject me without hurting my feelings. 

Okay. Sure. They approached me at the bar and flirted outrageously until the moment they found out I was a lawyer then they backed off. But that was just a coincidence. Really, they thought I was fugly and were just trying not to hurt my feelings.

Because that's what drunk guys at bars do. They approach women they're not attracted to and then try to let them down easily by making up stories about how intimidated they are by intelligence.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Nynaeve said:


> And apparently go to great lengths to avoid the obvious. As you seem to be doing.
> 
> Why can't it just be that they said what they were thinking?
> 
> ...


Lol, yes now you're getting it. That's how us men do things.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Nynaeve said:


> Indeed. But that does not mean that in the instances I was speaking of that's what those guys were doing. They *said* "you must be smart. That's intimidating." Or something along those lines. To discount what they said and instead presume that they had some past experience with lawyers is illogical. Also, highly unlikely considering where I live and met these guys.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wasn't meant as an insult!

To all the female lawyers I didn't date, I apologize. 

And yes, I see the irony in being an argumentative person... And not wanting to date one. 

If it helps, my wife almost became a lawyer... I think it was just to spite me. 

And, wow, does she put together a good argument.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

norajane said:


> I would guess no one is sitting around looking at IQ scores when they're dating. Whatever subjective measures people use to determine "intelligence" in a prospective dating partner is just that, subjective.


So true. I have done many and spectacular things to prove my idiocy throughout my years, but I guess I carry the aura of smart or something. Certainly people seem to perceive me as such, and I have been told I am intimidating or had people back away from me just because of subjective perception of what I must be like based on my profession.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> Also, these exams assume certain baseline skills, e.g., language.
> 
> Believe it or not, there are actually very smart people in the world who have language disabilities. These tests completely fail to measure the intelligence of these people.
> 
> Again, it is really laughable to assert that something as dynamic as intelligence can be captured by one particular exam.


I think this might be the first time ever, but I actually agree with your points here. Intelligence is most certainly multi-faceted, and comprises discrete skills that do not always go together: memory, language, reasoning and analysis, intuition, innovation, and so on.

I don't agree, though, that athletic ability is the same sort of thing. In the moment execution of these skills isn't, IMHO, best understood as mental calculations, however gracefully executed. Of course, full disclosure, I don't buy into the conception of the brain as just an advanced computing machine.


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