# Using sex to pay off student loans..



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I heard on TV that many young college girls are selling themselves to pornographers for money. Prostitution for Education. 

What a concept. Finishing school with no debt. And hopefully, no permanent STD.

Nothing new here. Women have been doing this since the beginning of time. This is the result of sexual freedom for women and for men in our [modern?] society. 

Soon, nothing will be out-of-bounds. Everything will be OK to do. It is your' lfe...do with it what you want. Just do not break any 'civil' laws. 

Is this a good thing? I have my opinion, what is yours?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

If women are doing this, so are men. There are a lot of gay pornography that pays as well.

My bet is that it's a very small percentage of people who will prostitute themselves to pay off their student debt. There have always been prostitutes. Nothing new here really.

Not that I condone it. It's just that prostitution is nothing new--the oldest profession.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> I heard on TV that many young college girls are selling themselves to pornographers for money. Prostitution for Education.
> 
> What a concept. Finishing school with no debt. And hopefully, no permanent STD.
> 
> ...


I worked in Rotterdam a few years ago.I have a habit of walking very early in the morning and one morning I went to an all night cafe for breakfast.I got talking to a really beautiful girl and she told me she was a medical student in Belgium.We left the cafe together and as we were standing outside on the street she told me she was paying her way through college by working as a prostitute.A few minutes later a car pulled up and it was her father,he knew what she did and supported her decision.
Coincidentally a few weeks later a few of us were on a bar crawl one Saturday night and we went into a club and she was there,she came over and said hello and then asked me was I or my friends interested in ****ing her.
We politely declined.
If anyone is interested she was charging four hundred euro for thirty minutes,that was 2003 and equivalent to about five hundred dollars at the time.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

I tend to run pretty libertarian. She's an adult, it's her body, and she should do with it as she pleases. I hope she understands the risks and all the ramifications first. The Internet is forever, available for her children to see. The taxpayer should not be on the hook for someone else's unreasonably risky behavior.

This is not something I would recommend for anyone I know.


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## rockon (May 18, 2016)

Nothing new.

In my college days in the 1980's I knew quite a few ladies that traded sex for rent free apartments. They concentrated on studying while living with no rent and all utilities payed for. 

I had no respect for them as I viewed it as form of prostitution.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I have read that more and more college students are getting Sugar Daddies. Another form of prostitution.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> If women are doing this, so are men. There are a lot of gay pornography that pays as well.
> 
> My bet is that* it's a very small percentage* of people who will prostitute themselves to pay off their student debt. There have always been prostitutes. Nothing new here really.
> 
> Not that I condone it. It's just that prostitution is nothing new--the oldest profession.


That small percentage is *getting larger.*...as societies mores' *get smaller*.

People do as people see [as others do]. It is incipient "incrementalism" that dooms societies, then the world. 

Capture the youth.....you capture the future world.

It happens again and again.....multi-generation Ulysses knows this, first hand.

Is there any saving grace?-----> Each generation [or so] swings back in the other direction. I suspect the internet age and commercialism will prevent this.

I fear that short of a comet slamming into our planet [killing the vast masses of mankind], we are at risk of dying as a species. 

We have begun the journey, heading downhill, the brakes have long since gone, rubbed off..to the steel backing...sparks are flying....causing brush fires in the hinterland, sexual furry-bush fires in the cities.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> I heard on TV that many young college girls are selling themselves to pornographers for money. Prostitution for Education.
> 
> What a concept. Finishing school with no debt. And hopefully, no permanent STD.
> 
> ...


I think they are mistaken, they think they can do this and there will be not cost for it. In the end I believe there is a cost down the line. Personally I always saw this as substituting a monetary cost for an emotional one.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

First sensing, then learning, then knowing about Cycles.....not Harleys or Schwinns, I know that change is unstoppable.

We, as a species...are *not.

Just Sayin'
................................................................................................

Actually, we *are. But that is a topic for another day....not for the "Hoi Polloi !"


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> That small percentage is *getting larger.*...as societies mores' *get smaller*.
> 
> People do as people see [as others do]. It is incipient "incrementalism" that dooms societies, then the world.
> 
> ...


You hear this all the time. But I don't agree. Maybe not you but I find the people who say that always look back to a how it was for previous generations. 

For example "The greatest Generation" you ever hear that line? Such bull****. That was my grandfather's generation. Maybe if you were from the US, Canada, Australia, Britain and some of the other Allied powers I can see why your was called that. I get the sentiment and yes the people who sacrificed to stop the spread of totalitarianism did a great service to all of us and should be honored for it. However, you probably don't feel that if you were one of the unfortunate people who was or whose grandparents happened to have a brown skin tone living in those places at the time. Then you probably think that generation pretty much sucked for the most part. 

Now if you happened to be born in another area maybe part of the axis powers then you or your grandparent participated or very well knew someone who participated in the, Rape of Naking or 6 million Jews and others being gassed. If not maybe you were born in eastern Europe and then had some relationship to the possible killing of 60 million in the name of Russian Communism, at the very least from inaction and starvation. Or in a peoples republic where 40 million were killed in the "Great leap forward" for Chinese Communism. All of this happened less then 100 years ago. Seems to me humans as a species has always sucked but at least now that kind of thing doesn't happen on such a grand scale. The age of information helps that because it makes it harder and harder to justify. The word is out. I don't see this time in history as anything but vastly better then any other. 

I didn't even touch on life expectancy and medical advancement, or should we talk about the lack of starvation compared to any other time before? Yes a lot of people are ****ing like rabbits and that is probably not a good thing in the long run, but it's nothing like herding masses people into a room and showering them with gas because they may say the "Shema Yisrael". Or lets go back 4 generations and then you had brown mothers ripped away from there children because they could pick cotton. No one gave a **** about those families. 

Just my to cents.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

We forget the other side of this coin.

University Presidents are sometimes paying themselves CEO style / level compensation packages.

Admin staff are paid 6 figure salaries.

Teaching staff are paid piecemeal / by the hour in class (screw preparation and one on one time with a student .... you can do it, but we won't you pay for it....)

Well, the powers that be aren't showing any coherent mores either.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

This is nothing new. In fact it has been going on since the beginning of time. If anything else society is just becoming more honest about it. Prostitution is the world's oldest profession. Charley Sheen had the right idea about it.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its a tricky problem (like so many). I fully support a woman's right to do what she wants with her own body - but this has the risk of changing the economics of college in a way that pressures other women into this.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There are probably some men, but I'd guess its less common. Most straight men can't really do gay porn since they can't get aroused in the presence of another man. Not that many men can even do straight porn - they need to be able to stay hard in the presence of cameras interruptions etc. 



EleGirl said:


> If women are doing this, so are men. There are a lot of gay pornography that pays as well.
> 
> My bet is that it's a very small percentage of people who will prostitute themselves to pay off their student debt. There have always been prostitutes. Nothing new here really.
> 
> Not that I condone it. It's just that prostitution is nothing new--the oldest profession.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> I have read that more and more college students are getting Sugar Daddies. Another form of prostitution.


I agree it is another form of prostitution but probably a safer option both emotionally and physically.The main dangers in prostitution are catching an std,being attacked and beaten up or even killed by a customer and the other one is someone recognising you either now or in the future.Having a sugar daddy lowers the chances of any of this.


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## Todd Haberdasher (Apr 23, 2017)

All work is a form of prostitution. It's just that a select few are more honest about it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I think its really sad that this happens. I wish these ladies had more respect for themselves than they have.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Todd Haberdasher said:


> All work is a form of prostitution. It's just that a select few are more honest about it.


This is so true. Many of us had jobs that were demeaning, low thought, low skill, no fun whatsoever. Mindless hand-eye motion. We were a cog in the wheel.

Though nobody entered a body orifice at work.....they did enter your mind. And they abused it.

Work is unavoidable....sexually prostituting oneself is avoidable.

Just Sayin'


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

You guys may not realize that teenagers are prostituting themselves just to get a meal. there are some desperate people in the US these days.

With the way Congress is redistributing wealth, it will only get worse.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

I have had the priviledge to serve several ladies "in the business" as financial advisor and tax accountant. Our tax system requires that "entertainers" pay their tax. In a former life I drove a taxicab, (great way to earn your way through university), and discovered that there were a number of students working their way through school on their backs. One night get a regular call from an escort service to deliver and wait for one of the girls. Started talking to her, and she noticed my jacket, had my college and year on it, aha, turns out she's at a sister college and a year behind me. University costs, residence costs, books cost, this was a solution. Many graduated without student loans, a few are now professionals in other areas.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Todd Haberdasher said:


> All work is a form of prostitution. It's just that a select few are more honest about it.


Some prostitution is more intimate then others.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

People are more honest about it.. with that.. it's become more *acceptable*...more & more will jump on the Sugar Daddy train, the exchange for stripping our clothes to be penetrated by old men they'd never give the time of day....All of this reduces sex to something VERY UGLY ...that's what I see... .. USING others for selfish gain...while devaluing one of the most beautiful expressions of love & devotion given & shared with another, someone very special.. 

I know my way of thinking is Old fashioned, romantic, sentimental, giving & about sharing ...with that said.... what has greatly changed with all this.. is a growing # of people no longer value these things...just as society has embraced the casual "no strings" attitude... the more the better... hail to experience , doesn't matter if he's a **** you never care to see again! ... Ya know.. when people complain - where did all the good men & women go... let us look in the mirror to what we find acceptable these days.... that it doesn't matter what we do anymore... how we live... we defend ANYTHING that gets us ahead.. whether stepping on others, manipulating to get to the top...it all starts with "USING" someone .. 

It's just another layer of the onion being pulled back in how we've embraced casual sex....if screwing strangers is completely acceptable why wouldn't this be....why would it stop here...and now we defend... there is no shame anymore. 

I believe that this type of engagement CHANGES these women...and I'll never understand the men..isn't it lowering themselves to pay someone to want to be with them?? I guess for a Hot babe...men will do anything, some of it is pure showing off having her on his arm.. but what is it worth if she cringes while he's penetrating her (sick if you ask me)... if one learns to compartmentalize sex like this... it tends to loose all emotion, something could be fundamentally lost from this sort of lifestyle early in a young woman's life...anyone involved in porn, rampant partners has struggled with this... there is a detachment that goes along with "surviving" such a lifestyle....

Here is an opinion from a said "Sugar baby".... taken from this article... Hooking Up to Get Out of Debt. Sex for College Tuition.  



> One reader said, “To be honest I have always struggled with the moral aspect of the sugar lifestyle, because I am conservative in upbringing, and am strongly opposed to gold digging! But being a sugar baby isn’t about being a gold digger! As a student, I wanted a boyfriend who will shower me with gifts, treat me like a princess, and of course take the financial stresses out of my life. And what’s wrong with that? ”


She asks what's wrong with that? Using her own words... what do you think ?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

SimplyAmorous said:


> People are more honest about it.. with that.. it's become more *acceptable*...more & more will jump on the Sugar Daddy train, the exchange for stripping our clothes to be penetrated by old men they'd never give the time of day....All of this reduces sex to something VERY UGLY ...that's what I see... .. USING others for selfish gain...while devaluing one of the most beautiful expressions of love & devotion given & shared with another, someone very special..
> 
> I know my way of thinking is Old fashioned, romantic, sentimental, giving & about sharing ...with that said.... what has greatly changed with all this.. is a growing # of people no longer value these things...just as society has embraced the casual "no strings" attitude... the more the better... hail to experience , doesn't matter if he's a **** you never care to see again! ... Ya know.. when people complain - where did all the good men & women go... let us look in the mirror to what we find acceptable these days.... that it doesn't matter what we do anymore... how we live... we defend ANYTHING that gets us ahead.. whether stepping on others, manipulating to get to the top...it all starts with "USING" someone ..
> 
> ...


You are basing your statement on your own feelings which is fine but that's not what's going on in these situations.These girls (mostly girls) see their looks as an asset which they can take advantage of.Young people these days see things a lot differently than people of even one generation ago,especially sex.Sex is about as "special"to the average eighteen year old as brushing their teeth.You have a situation where young people are going out each weekend and sleeping with a different partner,by their twenties some of them may have had a hundred different partners.
So instead some girl meets an older or maybe an ugly guy and they come to an arrangement,you can call it sugar daddy or fwb but it amounts to the same.They both get what they want.
Again you are projecting your own sentiments on to these girls which in your case is admirable but not realistic.
Your line about her cringing when he enters her made me smile.
Do you think he cares?


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

I'd rather be in debt.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Spicy said:


> I'd rather be in debt.


And that is your choice which you are fully entitled to.The point I'm trying to make is what people of previous generations think about sex has no bearing on today's young people.Not all of them of course but a sizeable percentage.
Is there a huge difference in a woman twenty years ago using her good looks to have numerous "dates" buy her dinner five times a week,saving her money and cooking time, and a girl who uses her looks to get a place to live.
I understand that this may come back to haunt them in the future but that's the choice they made.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Todd Haberdasher said:


> All work is a form of prostitution. It's just that a select few are more honest about it.


Nonsense.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

When you do work for the benefit of another and sell your mental or physical labor to do it, you are deciding what your personal resources are worth what wage.

You can have a moral debate if sex falls into some magical other category. 

But, in fairness from a certain perspective, if you are a woman who does not fully financially support herself and the trade is offering companionship and domestic skills (and likely? hopefully? sex) to a partner/spouse, then that is a decision both partners make of a trade of resources. And that's a fair decision for all people involved to make. And there are plenty of threads here about how wives are seemingly bothered by being penetrated by their husbands for any number of reasons - is that more or less vile?

So "leasing" those services is morally right, but renting them shorter term isn't? I'm mostly playing Devil's Advocate, but just saying.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> People are more honest about it.. with that.. it's become more *acceptable*...more & more will jump on the Sugar Daddy train, the exchange for stripping our clothes to be penetrated by old men they'd never give the time of day....All of this reduces sex to something VERY UGLY ...that's what I see... .. USING others for selfish gain...while devaluing one of the most beautiful expressions of love & devotion given & shared with another, someone very special..
> 
> I know my way of thinking is Old fashioned, romantic, sentimental, giving & about sharing ...with that said.... what has greatly changed with all this.. is a growing # of people no longer value these things...just as society has embraced the casual "no strings" attitude... the more the better... hail to experience , doesn't matter if he's a **** you never care to see again! ... Ya know.. when people complain - where did all the good men & women go... let us look in the mirror to what we find acceptable these days.... that it doesn't matter what we do anymore... how we live... we defend ANYTHING that gets us ahead.. whether stepping on others, manipulating to get to the top...it all starts with "USING" someone ..
> 
> ...


*Simply ~ it's rather apparent that we both come from a bygone age, one that was less materialistic and somewhat more humane toward our fellow man. It's either that, or our morals/mores that were far better instilled into us so much better than the majority of parents are trying to do in this modern day and age, primarily because of the damned-near universal acceptance of the system that we have let ourselves so richly devolve to! 

I can only wonder in bewilderment what the Heavenly Father thinks as he looks down upon His vast creation and sees all of the sordid actions of the worlds self-serving miscreants, be they authority figures, corporate leadership and hierarchy, politicians, public servants, and professionals placing dollars and sexual gratification far ahead of ever beginning to think of helping their fellow man!

Perhaps while waiting in line at Judgment, they'll have time to come up with a good, plausible excuse for Him that might possibly save their hides from His ridicule or damnation!*


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

arbitrator said:


> *Simply ~ it's rather apparent that we both come from a bygone age, one that was less materialistic and somewhat more humane toward our fellow man. It's either that, or our morals/mores that were far better instilled into us so much better than the majority of parents are trying to do in this modern day and age, primarily because of the damned-near universal acceptance of the system that we have let ourselves so richly devolve to!
> 
> I can only wonder in bewilderment what the Heavenly Father thinks as he looks down upon His vast creation and sees all of the sordid actions of the worlds self-serving miscreants, be they authority figures, corporate leadership and hierarchy, politicians, public servants, and professionals placing dollars and sexual gratification far ahead of ever beginning to think of helping their fellow man!
> 
> Perhaps while waiting in line at Judgment, they'll have time to come up with a good, plausible excuse for Him that might possibly save their hides from His ridicule or damnation!*


Arb it all boils down to money in the end.You have a situation where college goers are forced to take huge student loans,pay massive rent for even the poorest accommodation and are still expected to feed and clothe themselves.If their parents are not in a position to help or just downright refuse then some will take what looks like the easy option.Add to this the feeling of entitlement that a lot of young people have and you have the perfect storm.
I know you are a religious man and you often mention your church and the congregation that attends.What percentage of your fellow worshippers are late teens/early twenties.And more to the point, of the young people who do attend how many would keep attending church if they moved away from parental and family influence.
To a lot of people but especially the young money is the new religion and it has many devotees.The saints in this religion are called Dollar,Euro,Yen,Pound and a few more.
This race to the bottom in American industry is what is destroying the morality of a lot of families,parents losing well paid jobs which are being "outsourced" to Asia and are then forced into minimum wage,dead end jobs just to keep a roof over their and their families heads and food in their stomachs.How can a man who has been screwed over by some faceless CEO make his kids believe that honesty and truth and morality is the only way to live.These kids look for an easier life than they see their parents having and will do what it takes to achieve it.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

In previous generations the poor young woman trading on her looks and charm would marry the older man. He'd support her and pay for her education while she'd provide him sex and companionship. Once she was capable of self supporting, she'd divorce and go on with her life. This generation is engaging in the exact same behavior, but instead of being called "first husband" the man is called a "Sugar Daddy".


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think the details of the situation matter a lot. I agree that if she "cringes" when he penetrates her, that is bad all around. But what if she enjoys casual sex? Some women do. For porn, there are some women (a minority I agree) who are happy to have sex with random relatively attractive guys. If its prostitution, he may not be some horrible creep, but just an older guy who likes sex with young women. He may treat her fairly well.

Consider the alternatives? An attractive college girl can probably make $2000 in a night having sex with some wealthy guy. Or - she can flip burgers for 200 HOURS. that's 4 hour evening shifts for 12 weeks!

Years ago I hired someone for what I openly said was a dull miserable job (basically sorting parts in a shop). His comment was that he had been working as a janitor cleaning toilets. 

There are a lot of really bad jobs out there. Toll booth collector - breathing truck exhaust all day. 7-11 clerk waiting for the next guy to rob you. 

For most people I think prostitution is a terrible job, but for someone who enjoys casual sex, is it really so bad?


What most concerns me is that if it becomes common enough it could distort the college tuition and financial assistance market and become a requirement for people who want to succeed. 





SimplyAmorous said:


> snip
> 
> I believe that this type of engagement CHANGES these women...and I'll never understand the men..isn't it lowering themselves to pay someone to want to be with them?? I guess for a Hot babe...men will do anything, some of it is pure showing off having her on his arm.. but what is it worth if she cringes while he's penetrating her (sick if you ask me)... if one learns to compartmentalize sex like this... it tends to loose all emotion, something could be fundamentally lost from this sort of lifestyle early in a young woman's life...anyone involved in porn, rampant partners has struggled with this... there is a detachment that goes along with "surviving" such a lifestyle....
> 
> ...


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Spicy said:


> I'd rather be in debt.


Absolutely, at least then you can keep your self respect.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> You are basing your statement on your own feelings which is fine but that's not what's going on in these situations.These girls (mostly girls) see their looks as an asset which they can take advantage of.Young people these days see things a lot differently than people of even one generation ago,especially sex.Sex is about as "special"to the average eighteen year old as brushing their teeth.You have a situation where young people are going out each weekend and sleeping with a different partner,by their twenties some of them may have had a hundred different partners.
> So instead some girl meets an older or maybe an ugly guy and they come to an arrangement,you can call it sugar daddy or fwb but it amounts to the same.They both get what they want.
> Again you are projecting your own sentiments on to these girls which in your case is admirable but not realistic.
> Your line about her cringing when he enters her made me smile.
> Do you think he cares?


In the same respect people who see prostitution as just another service discount the possibility that their is an emotional component to sex. Personally in my experience that is not the case with most. Now maybe people can shut that down, but at what cost. Again I am not sure it's a healthy thing to turn your sexuality into a service like doing dishes. I believe there is a reason why prostitution has been seen as taboo through most of history even in societies that allow it. I also don't think the only reason is the possibility of children. A lot of it has to do with being emotionally unhealthy for the person who sells it. 

What is unfortunate is that many of these women who do this sort of thing are very young an inexperienced and I think they don't have the life wisdom to understand that there will be consequence for this choice and often times serious ones. 

One if they are honest about their past it will eliminate a substantial group of people from their choices for a long term mate. We can debate whether that should be or not but it doesn't change the fact that it is. We can also debate whether selling a very intimate part of yourself devalues that part of yourself or your future experiences using that part of yourself. Personally I don't see how it can't. 

The other choice is to lie about their past. A lifetime of lying doesn't seem like a healthy way to go about living your life. I believe living ones life authentically is pretty much a requirement for a happy life. Lying to those you are most close to will have an effect on you whether you know it or not.

If you do choose to lie then doing something that in the end you are ashamed of for monetary gain is a bad choice and again doesn't lead to a healthy life.

Generally the only way I think this could possibly be a healthy choice is for you to be the type of person who has no shame about doing it, meaning you have no problem telling those you are closest to, like your spouse. If not you are setting yourself up for problems down the road. Still this doesn't address how this attitude effects society however. I believe it does have a negative effect. 

It's not like working as a waiter no matter how much today's world wants to make it out to be. It's just not and it will never be. Most people are always going to value the uniqueness of their mates sexuality. If this is something that was given away for money it devalues it in many people's minds. That's just human nature. 

Now I can hear some of you saying well you need to get over it it's just like anything else. To that I say NO, I an many people like me are not going to get over it. This has nothing to do with judging the person doing the prostituting, it has to do with the society I want to live in. I don't want sex to be seen as just another commodity to trade in. The idea that all work is prostitution and sex work is like anything else to me is very cynical way of looking at work and sex and I choose to not think that way. I don't think it is healthy way to think about sex, I think it devalues people and society. And just because the young feel differently doesn't make them right, very often they are wrong and change their mind when they have more experience.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> Arb it all boils down to money in the end.You have a situation where college goers are forced to take huge student loans,pay massive rent for even the poorest accommodation and are still expected to feed and clothe themselves.If their parents are not in a position to help or just downright refuse then some will take what looks like the easy option.Add to this the feeling of entitlement that a lot of young people have and you have the perfect storm.
> I know you are a religious man and you often mention your church and the congregation that attends.What percentage of your fellow worshippers are late teens/early twenties.And more to the point, of the young people who do attend how many would keep attending church if they moved away from parental and family influence.
> To a lot of people but especially the young money is the new religion and it has many devotees.The saints in this religion are called Dollar,Euro,Yen,Pound and a few more.
> This race to the bottom in American industry is what is destroying the morality of a lot of families,parents losing well paid jobs which are being "outsourced" to Asia and are then forced into minimum wage,dead end jobs just to keep a roof over their and their families heads and food in their stomachs.How can a man who has been screwed over by some faceless CEO make his kids believe that honesty and truth and morality is the only way to live.These kids look for an easier life than they see their parents having and will do what it takes to achieve it.


We have a good number of young people in our church of that age who have kept their faith during and after university. I also know many non-believers would never act that way.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

SimplyAmorous said:


> People are more honest about it.. with that.. it's become more *acceptable*...more & more will jump on the Sugar Daddy train, the exchange for stripping our clothes to be penetrated by old men they'd never give the time of day....All of this reduces sex to something VERY UGLY ...that's what I see... .. USING others for selfish gain...while devaluing one of the most beautiful expressions of love & devotion given & shared with another, someone very special..
> 
> I know my way of thinking is Old fashioned, romantic, sentimental, giving & about sharing ...with that said.... what has greatly changed with all this.. is a growing # of people no longer value these things...just as society has embraced the casual "no strings" attitude... the more the better... hail to experience , doesn't matter if he's a **** you never care to see again! ... Ya know.. when people complain - where did all the good men & women go... let us look in the mirror to what we find acceptable these days.... that it doesn't matter what we do anymore... how we live... we defend ANYTHING that gets us ahead.. whether stepping on others, manipulating to get to the top...it all starts with "USING" someone ..
> 
> ...


We think alike....

Total Sexual freedom-
In the end it "may" work out.

But in who's end.....!!

And what will this End look like? 
An ending had a beginning. At the beginning we had a nuclear family...a Father and a Mother and children.

What will happen in this new world, say 100 years in the future?

Nobody getting married.
Women having many dozens of partners. Men, to this generation of women will be sugar boys, sugar men, sugar daddies, to provide them with material things, sate their sexual appetites and not much else. 
Men having many dozens of partners, many [more] of these female partners pregnant with no Daddy.
Women getting bored with men after the first fight. Going off with a new dude every six months or so.
Men having a blast doing one night stands. Why get married? Him getting all the sex he can handle. With no strings and little financial risk.

Men and women getting new strains of STD's. Strains immune to known antibiotics.

No new generation to replace the old. No new generation to fill the vacant jobs that open up as people retire. The birth rate will nose dive, read Japan and Northern Europe. This is already happening in the West.
To fill the jobs that are vacant, the flood doors will be opened [further] to unskilled 3d world emigres. Emigres who have no national identity, no new adopted national pride. Emigres who will vote in those candidates who give away the most.
The economy stagnates and collapses, California style.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> Absolutely, at least then you can keep your self respect.


yeah, while living on the streets. Debt collectors are not charities.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

This is yet another reason why education should be free or heavily subsidized as it is in many countries. An educated population benefits the country, not just the individual.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> yeah, while living on the streets. Debt collectors are not charities.


Huh?

Debt, is money owed. 

Selling your body is a soul sold.

Most students eventually get out of their debt...many of them ten years later.
This is a shame laid at societies doorstep. But, it is paid off with the financial principle and interest finally settled. Or settled through bankruptcy, if possible. Not possible with Federal loans.

The shame from prostitution is the Fidelity Principal, the Fidelity Interest....never settled, never paid off. 
Unless, you simply do not care. And some do not care, of course.

You dabble, dribble in prostitution...and you have no cares, no remorse. OK, you think?
If your children, mother/father/relatives find out.......THEY will care. They will look down on you. Your future spouse will certainly care.

Just Sayin'


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## C3156 (Jun 13, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> This is yet another reason why education should be free or heavily subsidized as it is in many countries. An educated population benefits the country, not just the individual.


Let's be honest, it isn't free. Besides, if everyone earned a higher degree, who would pick up the garbage?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

sokillme said:


> In the same respect people who see prostitution as just another service discount the possibility that their is an emotional component to sex. Personally in my experience that is not the case with most. Now maybe people can shut that down, but at what cost. Again I am not sure it's a healthy thing to turn your sexuality into a service like doing dishes. I believe there is a reason why prostitution has been seen as taboo through most of history even in societies that allow it. I also don't think the only reason is the possibility of children. A lot of it has to do with being emotionally unhealthy for the person who sells it.
> 
> What is unfortunate is that many of these women who do this sort of thing are very young an inexperienced and I think they don't have the life wisdom to understand that there will be consequence for this choice and often times serious ones.
> 
> ...


You are talking about prostitution.I am talking about a woman living with one guy who isn't in her league looks wise but is financially secure.This sort of reminds me of your recent thread where you said you would only date someone who you found attractive.This is a way for ugly guys to get a hot girl. She has no worries about being on the street,dealing with pimps or working in a brothel for some "madam" who will take most of her earnings.Why would she have anything to confess to any future guy other than her boyfriend in college was older or not very handsome.
Since I came to tam one thing has always struck me as oddly hypocritical.Guys place a lot of importance on their girlfriends/wives previous partner count but are very keen to play down their own.There seems to be an unspoken rule that girls shouldn't have more than a set amount of previous sex partners,otherwise she is seen as somehow not wife material.This is a load of crap and I honestly believe it is caused by guys worrying that they may be compared unfavourably with an ex boyfriend of their partner.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Debt early in life is a big deal. You work to pay it off during the time that you should be saving for a home. Some people are not able to get high paying jobs after college and the debt becomes a huge burden. 

For others, student loans don't cover all of their college courses, so they have to work. Working normal jobs takes time that is desperately needed for study.

Prostitution can be very ugly, but sometimes the alternatives are not very attractive either.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> You are talking about prostitution.I am talking about a woman living with one guy who isn't in her league looks wise but is financially secure.This sort of reminds me of your recent thread where you said you would only date someone who you found attractive.This is a way for ugly guys to get a hot girl. She has no worries about being on the street,dealing with pimps or working in a brothel for some "madam" who will take most of her earnings.Why would she have anything to confess to any future guy other than her boyfriend in college was older or not very handsome.
> Since I came to tam one thing has always struck me as oddly hypocritical.Guys place a lot of importance on their girlfriends/wives previous partner count but are very keen to play down their own.There seems to be an unspoken rule that girls shouldn't have more than a set amount of previous sex partners,otherwise she is seen as somehow not wife material.This is a load of crap and I honestly believe it is caused by guys worrying that they may be compared unfavourably with an ex boyfriend of their partner.


Your right but it seemed like you were relating that to prostitution as that was the context wasn't it? I don't think they are the same. At least there is some semblance of a relationship in what you describe. Lots of people have relationships for lots of reasons. They are still relationships. A prostitute and a john is only really a transaction relationship. 

As far as sex partners, it isn't necessarily about insecurity some people put value on it being unique, not one of many. I agree it is unfair if one partner doesn't hold themselves to the same standard. But I didn't have a lot of sex partners when I got married, I could count them on one hand. I had to be in love with the person, that meant the people who I slept with got something from me that most women I dated didn't. I dated lots of girls who didn't want to wait and I am sure just felt I was weird. They would drop me pretty quick. I wanted to marry someone who felt the same way about sex. I say all that to say I get tired of people just assuming that was important to me because I am insecure. I certainly wasn't insecure facing their judgement, or still holding back even though sometimes I was very much attracted to them. I don't think I could do it if I was insecure. Every girl I ever dated I had to tell them at some point that we would have to wait.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

sokillme said:


> In the same respect people who see prostitution as just another service discount the possibility that their is an emotional component to sex. Personally in my experience that is not the case with most. Now maybe people can shut that down, but at what cost. Again I am not sure it's a healthy thing to turn your sexuality into a service like doing dishes. I believe there is a reason why prostitution has been seen as taboo through most of history even in societies that allow it. I also don't think the only reason is the possibility of children. A lot of it has to do with being emotionally unhealthy for the person who sells it.
> 
> What is unfortunate is that many of these women who do this sort of thing are very young an inexperienced and I think they don't have the life wisdom to understand that there will be consequence for this choice and often times serious ones.
> 
> ...


QFT....very, very well said.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> We think alike....
> 
> Total Sexual freedom-
> In the end it "may" work out.
> ...


Sex-bots and VR are going to eliminate lots of these problems. Who needs sex with a real person with all the insecurity and risk when you can have sex with something that seems just as real and in lots of ways more exciting. For the first time in history individual sex and sexuality will no longer be a commodity. Sex itself will still be but it will be one that is not attached to any person. Then imagine how that will change as to where human sexuality goes when there are no limits. 

It's a scary thought but one that is very close to the horizon. You already see it with the way porn has change the culture especially with how men have already started to drop out. Honestly lots of people prefer porn to the real thing. This will only increase at the physical gets closer to the real thing. The stigma will go away just like porn's stigma has gone away in the last 20 years. 

Reproduction will be a transaction action for most, more in line to how marriage was until the 20th century. You reproduce with someone because of their status and also maybe because your genes fit well together and help eliminate certain genetic imperfections. Just like you used to marry someone to improve your station, this is still the case in much of the world. This will be a big change for everyone except the poor. They will still do it the old fashion way at least at first when these things are financially prohibitive. In some ways they have already gotten a head start as marriage is less common in people with lower incomes. 

Society will change and people will adjust. Most of us will be gone anyway.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Your right but it seemed like you were relating that to prostitution as that was the context wasn't it? I don't think they are the same. At least there is some semblance of a relationship in what you describe. Lots of people have relationships for lots of reasons. They are still relationships. A prostitute and a john is only really a transaction relationship.
> 
> As far as sex partners, it isn't necessarily about insecurity some people put value on it being unique, not one of many. I agree it is unfair if one partner doesn't hold themselves to the same standard. But I didn't have a lot of sex partners when I got married, I could count them on one hand. I had to be in love with the person, that meant the people who I slept with got something from me that most women I dated didn't. I dated lots of girls who didn't want to wait and I am sure just felt I was weird. They would drop me pretty quick. I wanted to marry someone who felt the same way about sex. I say all that to say I get tired of people just assuming that was important to me because I am insecure. I certainly wasn't insecure facing their judgement, or still holding back even though sometimes I was very much attracted to them. I don't think I could do it if I was insecure. Every girl I ever dated I had to tell them at some point that we would have to wait.


Well of its any consolation you have never came across as insecure to me.lol.
I think people just have to accept that what they want from a relationship may not be what their would be partner wants,especially as far as waiting is concerned.I always went on dates with the intention of having sex and I didn't hang around too long if it wasn't forthcoming.Other than my current girlfriend I don't think I ever got past a third date without either having sex or breaking up and even then she would have had to be really hot for me to wait that long.
I just don't (or didn't) see sex as anything to get all worked up over.
I respect your decision to do what you felt was right for you but it wouldn't have worked for me.I got the taste when I was young and I went hell for leather for years.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> Well of its any consolation you have never came across as insecure to me.lol.
> I think people just have to accept that what they want from a relationship may not be what their would be partner wants,especially as far as waiting is concerned.I always went on dates with the intention of having sex and I didn't hang around too long if it wasn't forthcoming.Other than my current girlfriend I don't think I ever got past a third date without either having sex or breaking up and even then she would have had to be really hot for me to wait that long.
> I just don't (or didn't) see sex as anything to get all worked up over.
> I respect your decision to do what you felt was right for you but it wouldn't have worked for me.I got the taste when I was young and I went hell for leather for years.


Don't tell me how you really think I come across. 

Your way is totally fine for me and don't think I am judging you, believe me I can see some advantage in you way as well, there were times I was tempted, it's just not where I choose to put my priorities (that was a Freudian slip if I ever wrote one). I guess I am kind of a traditionalist and wanted a more old fashion type of marriage, though I wasn't a virgin so I wasn't totally old fashion. Sex was always too personal to me to just do it with anyone. Always has been. 

The whole thing is just another question of sexual compatibility like anything else. I would never judge someone who thought like you, in the sense that I would think any less of her, it's just I don't think that our priorities are the same when it comes to sexuality. There are people here who have said very plainly that someone who thinks like me would be a deal breaker as well. This is life. This is how it works when choosing a mate isn't' it? You just weigh what you think is most important and what you think you can deal with and go from there.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Andy1001 said:


> *You are basing your statement on your own feelings *which is fine but that's not what's going on in these situations.


 @SunCMars 's thread started asked "Is this a good thing? I have my opinion, what is yours?"

Yes... I was giving how I feel...It's NOT a good thing .... Yes. I am looking through my own eyes on this one (that's usually what most of us do, don't we?) ... I find it cringe worthy and it makes SEX an ugly ugly thing.. usery on both ends.. you ask if I think the MEN care.. Probably not.. you are right ....but again.. what does that say about them.. their character ??... does this not matter.. this is why I have an opinion on it....

What does it say about our society to so easily look the other way - which many are doing.. this again, will just breed more acceptance of such things... One can google books about this.. 

The Sugar Daddy Formula: A Sugar Baby's Ultimate Guide to Finding a Wealthy Sugar Daddy 

 Ho Tactics: How To Mind **** A Man Into Spending, Spoiling, and Sponsoring

Seeking Arrangement: The Definitive Guide to Sugar Daddy and Mutually Beneficial Relationships 

How many of these Sugar Daddy's are actually married or have Girlfriends they are hiding these explodes from ......I get probably many of them travel and hook up with beautiful babes they can pay for... what does it do to a person to LIE & hide half of who they are ?? It's certainly not respectable is it? ... Maybe as time goes on, no one will have to lie, when the majority of marriages / partnerships are OPEN and everyone is on board (seems where we're headed)... but still this is not about INTIMACY shared, this is about selfish gain.... LUST in exchange for financial help...and pampering. 

I understand these beautiful women look at themselves as they have "Assets" that can get them further, advance their careers, etc...if they can stomach doing it.. if they can fake their way through with whomever can pay their way.... There are other ways to pay for a degree, and it's Ok to have some debt when you graduate... most do... There are lower cost Colleges ..but many may not find THAT acceptable.... What is so wrong with going to a local Community College to get most of their credits, then transferring to the College they preferred down the road... would this be an embarrassment , too low class for some? 

If our society looks down on those who go to lower priced colleges -so they can afford an education (that's the goal)... even if they have to do dishes in trying to pay some of this debt back during...without resorting to this sort of thing.. then that's just UGLY too.. I have my opinion.. some probably have THAT opinion... 



> These girls (mostly girls) see their looks as an asset which they can take advantage of.Young people these days see things a lot differently than people of even one generation ago,especially sex.*Sex is about as "special"to the average eighteen year old as brushing their teeth.*You have a situation where young people are going out each weekend and sleeping with a different partner,by their twenties some of them may have had a hundred different partners.


 and I find that very very sad... Our teen sons are nothing like this.... not sure its always an age thing as much as how one is raised.. what they have been exposed to, their influences and how they were brought up.. to treat other people..

Again....don't ask where all the good men & women are if this is what we are breeding and embracing... I sigh with anyone struggling to find an honorable partner these days....



> So instead some girl meets an older or maybe an ugly guy and they come to an arrangement,you can call it sugar daddy *or fwb but it amounts to the same.They both get what they want.*


 Oh I completely agree with you... some on here would say this is different from casual sex.. I'm one of those who don't see much of a difference.. this rationalization is why it will continue to grow in acceptance ... 



> Again you are projecting your own sentiments on to these girls which in your case is* admirable but not realistic*.
> Your line about her cringing when he enters her made me smile. Do you think he cares?


 Even if I'm from a smaller town, don't get out in the big city & mingle with what is the "NORM" today.. what we see on TV shows enough, and reading here.....I don't think I'm all that in the dark to what society wants these days.. even if I come from a different generation where things were more innocent, and we cared more so..


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

sokillme said:


> *As far as sex partners, it isn't necessarily about insecurity some people put value on it being unique, not one of many. I agree it is unfair if one partner doesn't hold themselves to the same standard.* But I didn't have a lot of sex partners when I got married, I could count them on one hand. *I had to be in love with the person*, that meant the people who I slept with got something from me that most women I dated didn't. I dated lots of girls who didn't want to wait and I am sure just felt I was weird. They would drop me pretty quick. I wanted to marry someone who felt the same way about sex.* I say all that to say I get tired of people just assuming that was important to me because I am insecure. I certainly wasn't insecure facing their judgement, or still holding back even though sometimes I was very much attracted to them.* I don't think I could do it if I was insecure. Every girl I ever dated I had to tell them at some point that we would have to wait.


Always refreshing to read a post like this one..


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

People are free to make their own choices in life.

You must always *choose wisely*. 

What I have an issue with, is when people complain about having to suffer from the consequences of their choices, like the woman who comes here and doesn't understand why her fiancé dumped her when he found out he was a prostitute in her youth (hypothetical). "Don't judge me for my past." I most certainly do not have the authority to do so, and I would do my best to see you as the person you are NOW because I think that we ALL have story, but I do expect an adult to own their choices and the possible impact. It's called risk, and life has may inherent and not so inherent risks. It's unfortunate that so many young women (and men) are not able to forsee consequences in the future with the same eyes as they would if they were more wise to the world.


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## _anonymous_ (Apr 18, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> I heard on TV that many young college girls are selling themselves to pornographers for money. Prostitution for Education.
> 
> What a concept. Finishing school with no debt. And hopefully, no permanent STD.
> 
> ...


This has been glorified on Lifetime when some women have done it. Some women (e.g. Miriam Weeks) are essentially getting their own feature film over monetizing their promiscuity. Haven't seen the Lifetime production, but I'm sure the male porn producers are villainized in some way, as if Miriam was forced into it against her free will. 

In her case, the education was questionably even valued in the labor market (gender studies) and her acquisition of that education was pure consumption. She basically turned a negative NPV investment in human capital into one with 0 NPV, through porn. That's exactly what I would hope my daughter would do *sarcasm*.

Smart. Very smart.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

SimplyAmorous said:


> @SunCMars 's thread started asked "Is this a good thing? I have my opinion, what is yours?"
> 
> Yes... I was giving how I feel...It's NOT a good thing .... Yes. I am looking through my own eyes on this one (that's usually what most of us do, don't we?) ... I find it cringe worthy and it makes SEX an ugly ugly thing.. usery on both ends.. you ask if I think the MEN care.. Probably not.. you are right ....but again.. what does that say about them.. their character ??... does this not matter.. this is why I have an opinion on it....
> 
> ...


You ask me what my opinion is.I think desperate times need desperate measures and if someone needs a place to live and she is happy to be some guys girlfriend,even if she normally wouldn't give him the time of day then go for it.It goes back to what I said,a lot of young people don't consider sex to be a big deal and someone with your beliefs and upbringing is not going to be able to get their heads around this.
I hope you are not taking this as a personal criticism,I have more respect for you and your family than almost anyone I have ever met.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Satya said:


> People are free to make their own choices in life.
> 
> You must always *choose wisely*.
> 
> What I have an issue with, is when people complain about having to suffer from the consequences of their choices, like the woman who comes here and doesn't understand why her fiancé dumped her when he found out he was a prostitute in her youth (hypothetical). "Don't judge me for my past." I most certainly do not have the authority to do so, and I would do my best to see you as the person you are NOW because I think that we ALL have story, but I do expect an adult to own their choices and the possible impact. It's called risk, and life has may inherent and not so inherent risks. It's unfortunate that so many young women (and men) are not able to foresee consequences in the future with the same eyes as they would if they were more wise to the world.


I attribute that to the lack of good parenting and accountability in society today. When half of the parents out there also don't have long term thinking, how are they going to impress upon their children this idea. I mean there is a reason why your parents told you not to do half the stuff that when you were younger you wanted to do, or some even did. Now a days it's the parents saying don't judge my kid they have a good heart, while he is beating some kid up on the buss. 

We live in a world where the media likes to sell that you should do what makes you feel good, **** the consequences. The problem is the motive for saying that the same reason they sell people drinking beer in perfect shape, when you know that most of those models in those commercials work their asses off to get in that shape, it damn sure wasn't the beer. In the same way life with not consequences is a great dream, but lots of people are not wise enough to know this is only a dream, life doesn't work that way.

Now tell those kids to get off my DAMN LAWN!!! >


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> You ask me what my opinion is.I think desperate times need desperate measures and if someone needs a place to live and she is happy to be some guys girlfriend,even if she normally wouldn't give him the time of day then go for it.It goes back to what I said,a lot of young people don't consider sex to be a big deal and someone with your beliefs and upbringing is not going to be able to get their heads around this.
> I hope you are not taking this as a personal criticism,I have more respect for you and your family than almost anyone I have ever met.


You really think so? I wonder if you asked a young guy say 22 today if he would date a girl he knew had a sugar daddy a year or so ago. I bet half would say no. Then ask the other half if they would consider having a serious relationship with her or just have fun, I would say half of them would say she was good to have fun with but that is all. Then ask that last half would they date her if she was open and honest about it with everyone including his parents, I bet you would get the number halved again. Then ask the ones left in the relationship with her if it bothered them and I bet half would say yes it still does. I personally don't think anything has changed at all. Just my thoughts.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

sokillme said:


> You really think so? I wonder if you asked a young guy say 22 today if he would date a girl he knew had a sugar daddy a year or so ago. I bet half would say no. Then ask the other half if they would consider having a serious relationship with her or just have fun, I would say half of them would say she was good to have fun with but that is all. Then ask that last half would they date her if she was open and honest about it with everyone including his parents, I bet you would get the number halved again. Then ask the ones left in the relationship with her if it bothered them and I bet half would say yes it still does. I personally don't think anything has changed at all. Just my thoughts.


I usually find myself agreeing with most of your posts but this is one we will never see eye to eye on.
I'm not trying to come across as some sort of Casanova but up until I met my current gf I had never got emotionally involved with a woman and a mixture of luck and money meant I had no shortage of willing partners.
On your earlier post you said you could count your sexual partners on one hand.I honestly can't understand why any young man wouldn't want to screw every hot girl that he could but that is a reflection of me and not you.

Going back to what you said in your post.A woman lives with a guy who she is not attracted to simply because he provides her with a standard of living which otherwise she couldn't afford.
I think that describes about half the marriages that I know of including many on tam.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

sokillme said:


> You really think so? I wonder if you asked a young guy say 22 today if he would date a girl he knew had a sugar daddy a year or so ago. I bet half would say no. Then ask the other half if they would consider having a serious relationship with her or just have fun, I would say half of them would say she was good to have fun with but that is all. Then ask that last half would they date her if she was open and honest about it with everyone including his parents, I bet you would get the number halved again. Then ask the ones left in the relationship with her if it bothered them and I bet half would say yes it still does. I personally don't think anything has changed at all. Just my thoughts.


Really depends. I've known a few former prostitutes and a couple people who did porn when in desperate need of money. Knew a few strippers, too, but they claimed they didn't do "extra's". All but two of them are now retired from sex work and married to a spouse who knows their history. Most of them have kids. From what I understand, some friends and family members know and others do not. The two who aren't married are a couple. They have no plans to marry and have a monogam-ish relationship.

It really is just like anything else. If a past as a sex worker is a problem, then there is a serious incompatibility there.

Would I be bothered if DH had been a sex worker before we met and started dating? No, provided he was STD free. A history of casual sex isn't a dealbreaker for me, so why should casual sex for money be a dealbreaker? STD's, on the other hand, are a dealbreaker for me.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> Going back to what you said in your post.A woman lives with a guy who she is not attracted to simply because he provides her with a standard of living which otherwise she couldn't afford.
> 
> I think that describes about half the marriages that I know of including many on tam.


I not only agree with you, but I think it was worse 50 years ago.

And let's not forget the guys who married the daughter who came from a rich family.


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## Dannip (Jun 13, 2017)

Andy1001 said:


> I worked in Rotterdam a few years ago.I have a habit of walking very early in the morning and one morning I went to an all night cafe for breakfast.I got talking to a really beautiful girl and she told me she was a medical student in Belgium.We left the cafe together and as we were standing outside on the street she told me she was paying her way through college by working as a prostitute.A few minutes later a car pulled up and it was her father,he knew what she did and supported her decision.
> Coincidentally a few weeks later a few of us were on a bar crawl one Saturday night and we went into a club and she was there,she came over and said hello and then asked me was I or my friends interested in ****ing her.
> We politely declined.
> If anyone is interested she was charging four hundred euro for thirty minutes,that was 2003 and equivalent to about five hundred dollars at the time.


She must be on her third PhD


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Dannip said:


> She must be on her third PhD


Did you mean her third std.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Andy1001 said:


> it.It goes back to what I said,a lot of young people don't consider sex to be a big deal and someone with your beliefs and upbringing is not going to be able to get their heads around this.


Although middle aged now, I've always erred on the side of sex isn't a big deal. Which was always the norm in my social circles even when I was a young man.



sokillme said:


> You really think so? I wonder if you asked a young guy say 22 today if he would date a girl he knew had a sugar daddy a year or so ago. I bet half would say no. Then ask the other half if they would consider having a serious relationship with her or just have fun, I would say half of them would say she was good to have fun with but that is all. Then ask that last half would they date her if she was open and honest about it with everyone including his parents, I bet you would get the number halved again. Then ask the ones left in the relationship with her if it bothered them and I bet half would say yes it still does. I personally don't think anything has changed at all. Just my thoughts.


Yep!

When I was 22-23 I was in my third longest sexual relationship. With an anglo Australian woman who was a university student at the time. She had done hostess work in Japan (was fluent in Japanese), where she did have sex with some of her more generous clients. She did not keep this from me at all and I was fine with it from the beginning. Likewise I am still fine with her and others doing exactly that. 

We were both fairly hedonistic and had a laissez-faire attitude towards sex, she knew I had sex on a monorail in the past as I knew she had sex on a train in the past. I knew she had been with plenty of men, just as she knew I'd been with plenty of women.

She had also met my parents and I had met hers who lived interstate and on and on etc.

My relationship with her was serious and it was fun, in fact having ongoing fun is the basis of all of my serious long-term relationships.

Although I eventually broke up with her, there was a time when we were looking at staying together for the long haul. For the most part our timing was wrong, she was my first serious long-term post divorce relationship after plenty of other much shorter ones and so called one night stands. So in that respect she lucked out in getting me then and not later. That said I still have fond memories of our time together.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

A very close friend of my exH's married a woman who supported herself by being someone's mistress. She was set up in an apartment next to his. I do wonder how much of that was intended.

Someone told me that her sugar daddy paid for the wedding dress and was at the wedding.

I found her to be the most toxic manipulative person I had ever met. My exH acted as if she walked on water.

I don't want to judge people in how they get by in life. But at the same time, being successful in certain areas can require a whole personality and set of values change.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

sokillme said:


> I attribute that to the lack of good parenting and accountability in society today. When half of the parents out there also don't have long term thinking, how are they going to impress upon their children this idea. I mean there is a reason why your parents told you not to do half the stuff that when you were younger you wanted to do, or some even did. Now a days it's the parents saying don't judge my kid they have a good heart, while he is beating some kid up on the buss.
> 
> We live in a world where the media likes to sell that you should do what makes you feel good, **** the consequences. The problem is the motive for saying that the same reason they sell people drinking beer in perfect shape, when you know that most of those models in those commercials work their asses off to get in that shape, it damn sure wasn't the beer. In the same way life with not consequences is a great dream, but lots of people are not wise enough to know this is only a dream, life doesn't work that way.
> 
> Now tell those kids to get off my DAMN LAWN!!! >


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

The government needs to step in and make college more affordable for people. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MrsAldi said:


> The government needs to step in and make college more affordable for people.
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


They need to start taking into account the choices people make in degrees and the potential monetary rewords for them. Just blanketly giving money has inflated the cost. A degree in pottery is not worth $80,000.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

In northern European countries like Germany and Scandinavia, the concept of numerus clausus is employed.

That means, the more lucrative a study proves to be, the lower grade is to allow more people in to the program. The less lucrative the study is, the higher grade that is necessary to pursue that topic.

These are countries whose schools are controlled at the national level and the standardized exams are adminstrered by the government .... and not by some for profit outfit.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

sokillme said:


> They need to start taking into account the choices people make in degrees and the potential monetary rewords for them. Just blanketly giving money has inflated the cost. A degree in pottery is not worth $80,000.


I hear this spouted endlessly."If your hobby is your job you will never work a day in your life".What a load of unadulterated crap. Who's hobby is pumping gas,flipping burgers, cleaning sewers,fishing bodies out of a river etc.Someone still has to do it.When I see young people going to college,studying for degrees that they will never use simply for the fact that any job these days seems to need a degree I feel like screaming.The waste of money,the loans they will be paying back for years just to get a job that has no resemblance to what they spent three or four years studying for.Like You said eighty grand on a pottery degree,eighty grand will buy a lot of crockery.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

SunCMars said:


> I heard on TV that many young college girls are selling themselves to pornographers for money. Prostitution for Education.
> 
> What a concept. Finishing school with no debt. And hopefully, no permanent STD.
> 
> ...


These two statements contradict each other.

/editor off


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

NextTimeAround said:


> In northern European countries like Germany and Scandinavia, the concept of numerus clausus is employed.
> 
> That means, the more lucrative a study proves to be, the lower grade is to allow more people in to the program. The less lucrative the study is, the higher grade that is necessary to pursue that topic.
> 
> These are countries whose schools are controlled at the national level and the standardized exams are adminstrered by the government .... and not by some for profit outfit.


Interesting concept. I'm not sure about this changing the threshold for required grades though-- more lucrative degrees generally have higher academic requirements. After all, we do want our doctors and engineers to be smart.

However, there may be some applicability to prioritizing public funds for education. It should be easier to obtain grants or loans toward degrees that are in demand than for those which are a ticket to unemployment or underemployment.


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## KevinZX (Jul 1, 2017)

Anarchy is also just around the corner, madmen used to be confined to asylums, now they run countries, fight imaginary wars, what next, animals running the show, where are the decent people who are willing to sacrifice a little of their time to sort out the world, little to celebrate these days, lies and cover-ups, corruption on a vast scale, lets start today and condemn what we see as against the human spirit, we can as individuals make some changes and that will get the ball rolling.

Love and Peace always

KevinZX


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

MrsAldi said:


> The government needs to step in and make college more affordable for people.
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


They can start with interest free government loans and remove tenure in higher ed so you are getting the quality you pay for and deserve... stop half the medical fraud in medicare and VA and you would have these funds I believe.

900 billion stashed away for the Lifeline Program?

Cell phones over education... ugh.

'Obamaphone' program riddled with fraud: Audit - Washington Times

We have sold more than our bodies...


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

KevinZX said:


> Anarchy is also just around the corner, madmen used to be confined to asylums, now they run countries, fight imaginary wars, what next, animals running the show, where are the decent people who are willing to sacrifice a little of their time to sort out the world, little to celebrate these days, lies and cover-ups, corruption on a vast scale, lets start today and condemn what we see as against the human spirit, we can as individuals make some changes and that will get the ball rolling.
> 
> Love and Peace always
> 
> KevinZX


I heard on the news that Trump tweeted today that "he just fired Dennis Rodman from his ambassador position to North Korea."

Looks like Trump is taking those developments seriously.....


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> In northern European countries like Germany and Scandinavia, the concept of numerus clausus is employed.
> 
> That means, the more lucrative a study proves to be, the lower grade is to allow more people in to the program. The less lucrative the study is, the higher grade that is necessary to pursue that topic.
> 
> These are countries whose schools are controlled at the national level and the standardized exams are adminstrered by the government .... and not by some for profit outfit.


Praxis has the Mafia beat..... by FAR


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

MrsAldi said:


> The government needs to step in and make college more affordable for people.
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


Student loans are the "cigarettes" of the 1950s-1990s. Even in 1994 Congress had the chance

to declare nicotine a drug..... they didn't. Money talked or.... kept some from talking.

Can't recall what they had in mind if it was declared.

But no..... the government will not step in to help.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

sokillme said:


> They need to start taking into account the choices people make in degrees and the potential monetary rewords for them. Just blanketly giving money has inflated the cost. A degree in pottery is not worth $80,000.


:iagree: I posted this on a thread about 18 months ago.......

A professor mentioned one day..... most degrees are wallpaper degrees. They're good to put on a wall but not much more. Can't do much with a history, economics, philosophy, etc. degree unless you desire a masters (back then a masters could be used in many places... today that's not enough.... places want doctorates or in process of).

The professor went on to say unless you can get a job in your field right out of college (education, engineering, computer science, etc.), all you paid for was a course in organization and a pretty piece of paper. It looks good on a resume... doesn't promise getting hired at the level you expected.

Professor went on to add... yes a degree can keep you from an entry level, those are chosen by high school graduates, who are well up the ladder by the time the four year students graduate college. BTW... it takes on average six years to complete a four year degree. Oh..... the ones who started work out of high school are not only higher up the ladder than the college graduates but... have no student debt hanging over them.

The students I see today want within five years what it took their parents thirty to accumulate. And they get these pipe dreams from.......... yours truly, the university.

Johnny graduated with a degree in "wallpaper." Along with his student loan debt, the cost of housing,

Johnny had to move back home with his parents. Yes Johnny found a job, actually two! Both part time, no benefits, may work 30+ hours at each job sometimes..... sometimes only 30 hours combined. Not an impressive combination when searching for an apartment, much less buying a house.

So Johnny lives in the basement. Ordering pizza and watching videos of how this country is going in the toilet at 3AM. Johnny's great-grandfather never finished high school, his great-grandmother never made it to high school. GGF never had a problem finding work, GGM never did either after the kids were in school.

Johnny's grandparents did complete high school. Jobs were plentiful for both. Homes were affordable and disposable funds were always available. Johnny's parents started college but never finished... there were too many well paying jobs available. Plus they wanted to start a family young... not wait until their 30s.

A wave of requirements swept over Johnny's parents. Even the most simplistic jobs were now calling for a college degree (not required but... you get the hint). Johnny's parents were grandfathered in... and they knew "our Johnny has to have a college education."

Here we are today. 50k-100k student loan debt, mid to late 20s still living at home. Johnny was a "good soldier" and did what he was told. Sounds like Johnny's generation is propping up an institution while older generations get rich.

It's funny college tuition continues to increase as more young people attend and...... the number of universities (accredited) increase to meet demand. Now.... let's say XYZ car company came out with a car that allotted 125 MPG and a 10 year complete warranty. Price starts at $50k. ABC makes one as similar as possible... same amenities... price drops to $40k. UVW comes in.... same thing.... price drops to $25k.

But universities.... are just the opposite. Too many jobs out there require a degree when it is not needed. Instead of saddling yourself with debt for four to six years getting a wallpaper degree, one could use one year as an understudy in a field and already be ahead of the game. Three to five years ahead of the crowd and no student debt. But today.... we aren't "adults" until we are 30. When my grandparents were not even 18.... they were considered adults and given adult responsibilities.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

If you are getting your degree just to make money, meaning money is the real reason then there are still plenty of careers that you can make very good money without a degree and all that debt. You have to be what they call a go-getter though.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

KevinZX said:


> Anarchy is also just around the corner, madmen used to be confined to asylums, now they run countries, fight imaginary wars, what next, animals running the show, where are the decent people who are willing to sacrifice a little of their time to sort out the world, little to celebrate these days, lies and cover-ups, corruption on a vast scale, lets start today and condemn what we see as against the human spirit, we can as individuals make some changes and that will get the ball rolling.
> 
> Love and Peace always
> 
> KevinZX


There have always been mad men running countries, kingdoms, caliphates, empires, etc. A good number of those who history now call "great" were mad mem, sociopaths and psychopaths who knew how to manipulate and control people.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sokillme said:


> If you are getting your degree just to make money, meaning money is the real reason then there are still plenty of careers that you can make very good money without a degree and all that dept. You have to be what they call a go-getter though.


There are many jobs that require a college degree and no one without that degree will ever be hired. A lot of STEM jobs are like that.

Try being a medical doctor or a nurse with no degree. Or how about most engineering jobs. And yea, these jobs pay well.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> There are many jobs that require a college degree and no one without that degree will ever be hired. A lot of STEM jobs are like that.
> 
> Try being a medical doctor or a nurse with no degree. Or how about most engineering jobs. And yea, these jobs pay well.


Um, yeah, how does this contradict anything in my quote? Let me say it another way, if your only reason to go to college is because you think that's the way to have a high paying job, then that is a bad reason. There are plenty of trades for instance where you can make lots and lots of money, and you won't be a hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. Obviously if you want to be a Doctor you need a degree. But then you wouldn't be going to school just to make money right?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Fozzy said:


> These two statements contradict each other.
> 
> /editor off


My editor had the day off that day.Too, Too.

It is a rare day in Hell that anyone corrects my Dik-shun.

Good eye. Nice to know some people actually read my posts, let alone grade them. 

Left brain, right brain conflict. 

Right brain left out. Or made a left turn on Red instead of a proper and legal Right turn at Reddy-Whip-lash-out.

Mea Culpa.

Thanks!

SCM


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sokillme said:


> Um, yeah, how does this contradict anything in my quote? Let me say it another way, if your only reason to go to college is because you think that's the way to have a high paying job, then that is a bad reason. There are plenty of trades for instance where you can make lots and lots of money, and you won't be a hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. Obviously if you want to be a Doctor you need a degree. But then you wouldn't be going to school just to make money right?


I have known people who get an MD to make money and for prestige. The last thing on their mind is whether or not they can help anyone. I was actually married to one of these types.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Evil is bi-polar.

Money is one of the roots of evil. The other is power.

It is means to an end. A likely better life. Material wise. 

People with money have an edge and usually more power...over others.

You can have power without money, but that is rare. To do so, would mean having backing from a lot of common people or a few very Rich ones.

Take Billy Graham, for example. A lot of power, not so much money. He eschewed material things. He was a rare bird....a Double Scorpio.
.......................................................................................................................................................................

On @sokillme 's line of thought. Skilled trades people [today] make 25-40 dollars an hour. But union [outside trade] workers must kick in for their own insurance and pension. That whittles away much of their hourly rate.

In order for a trades person to make a decent living they must work a lot of overtime. At time and a half and double time on Sunday [for some], that is a lot of money. Six and seven days a week. They are trading in their short lives and free time for money. Many are expected to work [forced overtime]. Hourly trade workers are called in on short notice and at all hours of the night. Uh, huh!

Middle management salaried workers [mostly college grads] often make the same money but work 40-45 hours a week. They are at home with their families a lot more. And they do not get dirty, do dangerous work, work in the heat and the freezing cold. And they get treated with respect. The hourly, non production worker is viewed as overhead, salary workers not so much. You do not get the same respect in America.

It is not right that people think this, but it is reality.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

SunCMars said:


> Take Billy Graham, for example. A lot of power, not so much money. He eschewed material things. He was a rare bird....a Double Scorpio.


$25 million is hardly eschewing material things.


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