# Decided to D yesterday, today I doubt



## cpacan

So here I am... moved from CWI to here. 14 months past D-day LTA and have been fighting like mad for my marriage. I love my wife dispite our troubles (maybe somewhat depended, i think). I have been working on my self physically and mentally, lost 35 pounds, in good shape, and I have realized that I have the power to change ME, and that I can do absolutely NOTHING to change my wife, if she doesn't want to her self.

I have become very good at seeing things the way they are and accept the things that I cannot change.

We/she have the following issues left, i guess:
* She does not want to talk aboult feelings, relationship or her affair anymore (only seldom, from time to time and not without being visibly anoyed)
* She does not want IC for her, she says she has learned her lesson and won't do it again. Yet, she is not aware of the underlying reasons and personal traits that enabled her cheating.
* Disrespect. I heard her tell her FF that she is going through all this just for the children (we have two)... WTF...? Nothing at all about loving me etc.

Now, yesterday late evening and night, we had an incident where she refused to talk. I took a walk, angry, and spend half the night speculating. What is it that I want from a relationship? Certainly not this. I need someone to talk about feelings with! And I need her to change in this matter in order ti succeed. And yet she won't.

So, I accept it, and must remove my self from this unsatisfying matter. I decided to divorce her. I would spend the weekend to clarify the process, possibilities and obstacles. Kids. Finances.

But then, this morning she rushes to get some paper and writes me a letter in handwriting. Saying that she is sorry about her reaction yesterday, and that she can't take another 14 months like this, talking and being reminded about her failure. That we are just different types, I want to talk, she doesn't etc. And that I should consider if I can live with the person who hurt me this bad.

But she also writes, that she loves me, that she so much hope for us to be able to get through this and have a joyfull life together, like we always had - it was the perfect marriage... 

So now I doubt myself  - how cool is that?


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## iheartlife

Have you thought of trying this.

Instead of talking about everything, write her a letter with your questions and ask her to write back.

Tell her how wounded you are that she told someone that she's just going through the motions for the kids. That you DESERVE to have someone in life who treasures you, and she needs to honestly look inside and see if she can be that person.

Writing frankly takes more effort than talking. She has to think about her answers. Or, if she doesn't, and she refuses to engage in this exercise, too, that will just be the nail in the coffin.

I reached this point with my husband (he was in a long-term emotional affair). What I finally learned to do was to save up my questions and ask them together; try to skip a day here and there talking about the affair completely; and if I just couldn't stand waiting to ask a question, I'd announce it by saying, "I have to ask you this," to allow him to mentally prepare for a question about the affair.

However, if she is telling other people she's doing it for the kids, that is a very bad sign. I KNOW that if my husband said those words I'd have to file for divorce. I'm not sure how I could mentally erase that. It would haunt me more than anything he actually did in the affair.


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## cpacan

Thanks, I actually spend the day writhing a long letter to her in which I explain my doubts about her motives. I also present to her my dream partner, and ask her if she can be that woman.
Question is, do I tell her that I actually decided for D now that I am not certain my self?


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## dormant

If you tell her about the divorce now, she might just write it off. You need to give her a chance to respond to your questions/desires first.


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## cpacan

dormant said:


> If you tell her about the divorce now, she might just write it off. You need to give her a chance to respond to your questions/desires first.


I guess I know that deep down - it's just that I have been waiting for her to take some action for 14 months now... it's so frustrating, and I am so tired of keeping my guards up all the time wondering if she loves me or not. Just so tired. And sad... it's just so not fun.

Cheating isn't the best sign of love to begin with


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## iheartlife

cpacan said:


> I guess I know that deep down - it's just that I have been waiting for her to take some action for 14 months now... it's so frustrating, and I am so tired of keeping my guards up all the time wondering if she loves me or not. Just so tired. And sad... it's just so not fun.
> 
> Cheating isn't the best sign of love to begin with


Here is the thing. Pretend there was no cheating. When there are problems in a marriage, the two parties MUST let their guards down and reveal their inner vulnerability to each other.

I never kept my guard up to my cheating husband that way. I didn't break down and cry and beg for the marriage, ever, but I guess that's because I just have a very strong view that he is the one who cheated and made the stupid choice. Every decision he makes is HIS choice. I can't control him.

But I always told him that he was the love of my life and I wanted the marriage to work. I've showered him with love, I MADE myself do that, once I was certain that the affair was over and they were no longer in contact.

I still had tough conversations where I had my questions about the affair answered.

There has to be a marriage to come back to if you cheat. This is the choice that the BS has to make. Are you going to punish them forever? What is left for them to be loyal to? And yes I know this seems outrageous because THEY were the ones who screwed it all up.

I found that there was no room for my husband's remorse until I was able to control and dissipate my anger and stop questionning him constantly.

My husband sent me an email that stated simply:


> iheartlife,
> 
> I have not tried to minimize it. I lied to you about whether or not I was in contact with [the AP] – lied to you about having an affair. I will always regret having the affair and so lying to you.


and for some reason once he said that, I was able to move on and work with him to restore our marriage.


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## cpacan

iheartlife said:


> Here is the thing. Pretend there was no cheating. When there are problems in a marriage, the two parties MUST let their guards down and reveal their inner vulnerability to each other.
> 
> I never kept my guard up to my cheating husband that way. I didn't break down and cry and beg for the marriage, ever, but I guess that's because I just have a very strong view that he is the one who cheated and made the stupid choice. Every decision he makes is HIS choice. I can't control him.
> 
> But I always told him that he was the love of my life and I wanted the marriage to work. I've showered him with love, I MADE myself do that, once I was certain that the affair was over and they were no longer in contact.
> 
> I still had tough conversations where I had my questions about the affair answered.
> 
> *There has to be a marriage to come back to if you cheat. This is the choice that the BS has to make. Are you going to punish them forever? What is left for them to be loyal to? And yes I know this seems outrageous because THEY were the ones who screwed it all up.*
> 
> I found that there was no room for my husband's remorse until I was able to control and dissipate my anger and stop questionning him constantly.
> 
> My husband sent me an email that stated simply:
> 
> 
> and for some reason once he said that, I was able to move on and work with him to restore our marriage.


Thank you for taking the time, your words mean a lot to me, and I agree with them all. Why I get so frustrated and confused is because of the somewhat mixed signals - and then afterwards refusing to talk about it.

I don't punish her for her deeds 14 months ago, it is the inconsistancy in her communication and actions today that makes it hard, I guess.

Or maybe I am just having a really bad day


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## Almostrecovered

I read your wife's letter as a plea to allow rug sweeping


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## lamaga

Leaving aside all the details -- this is one of the hardest experiences that a person can go through. Of course you are going to doubt yourself at times. You're going to hate yourself at times, you're going to hate her at times.

Please treat yourself with extra kindness and very little judgment...you are going through a lot.


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## cpacan

Almostrecovered said:


> I read your wife's letter as a plea to allow rug sweeping


I am... Thanks


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## cpacan

lamaga said:


> Leaving aside all the details -- this is one of the hardest experiences that a person can go through. Of course you are going to doubt yourself at times. You're going to hate yourself at times, you're going to hate her at times.
> 
> Please treat yourself with extra kindness and very little judgment...you are going through a lot.


Thanks, and I know... I certainly know.


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## cpacan

I think what's got to me is that I finally manned up and drew the line, and then I had to watch myself crawl back again.
I guess I'm a little disappointed in myself.


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## Almostrecovered

what motivates you?

are the kind of guy who needs a drill sergeant or the kind of guy who needs encouraging words?


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## cpacan

Almostrecovered said:


> what motivates you?
> 
> are the kind of guy who needs a drill sergeant or the kind of guy who needs encouraging words?


 nice.
I guess that clear speech and understanding what the fvck is going on would motivate me. 
I would like to see the light at the end of the tunnel just once in a while. 
So that would probably not be the drill sergeant


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## cpacan

cpacan said:


> I am... Thanks


I might add that I know that it's rug sweeping, she has always done that, her family did that, she doesn't know what else to do.


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## Almostrecovered

so I'll forgo the man up crap



your wife is telling you that she doesn't feel up to facing what she did

I once told my wife that I don't hate her but rather I hate the choice she made 

I'm sure some guys around here will think I was letting her off the hook but to the contrary I made sure that she knew that she had to atone for that choice and do what was necessary to make it right and that would be a long term project if she wanted to stay with me

I also told her that if she wanted to bail at any time to simply say so and we can at least say we tried and go our separate ways

she hasn't wanted to bail yet

I don't think your wife has the same disposition, the same drive or conviction to help you heal from her choice to cheat. Instead she laments that the children need a stable home, she needs security and things could be fine and wonderful if you would just stop beating her up over it. (IOW you should be the one to suck it up, because she's fine and dandy with it now, you're just a crybaby)

how incredibly selfish, at least you could respect her more if she said, "I can't do it, let's divorce"

but alas, she's a coward and will manipulate you into getting her way in the best way she knows how

you've been here for 6 months now, you know the differences between remorse and rugsweeping. If you rugsweep this will be guaranteed to rear its ugly head again, she will either cheat again, or she will bail when the kids are adults or you will break down into being a head case from the suppressed feelings of paranoia and not getting what you need/want from her


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## cpacan

Thanks AR, you are 100 percent spot on, but I just don't like it. Arrgg...
I think we are starting to see the end of the rope. And yet, I still hope she'll cave in eventually, but probably not, I guess.
But I can tell for sure that one of us will bail out very soon. I know I am starting to consider it an option for real for the first time in all these months.


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## Almostrecovered

wake up sleepy head

self-denial isn't pretty
and lack of action led Hamlet and 90% of the cast to their demise


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## cpacan

Almostrecovered said:


> wake up sleepy head
> 
> self-denial isn't pretty
> and lack of action led Hamlet and 90% of the cast to their demise


 Yeah yeah, but it's a start that I see it clealy now at least... I know it's wishfull thinking. So... I am getting there, but slowly - I hate making mistakes  Especially about this one.


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## Almostrecovered

fear, we all have it

the ones who don't get controlled by it are happier people


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## Almostrecovered

update?


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## cpacan

Well, I wrote my letter to her. I had a lot on my mind for her. I stated exactly what I need from a relationship and scored her on these needs (somewhat like his needs her needs template).

I also tried to encourage some IC for her by asking fundamental questions about her motives and rationalizations. We started to talk about it late evening after the kids went to bed. It was pretty obvious that she had just read my letter briefly.

It was bad and pretty ugly scene. I asked her if she was going to say something about my letter. She said "I can't do this". "
Do what?", I asked. 
"Answer all these questions over and over again, you must believe that I love you, I know I screwed up, I have learned from it, and I will leave you before I cheat on you again."
She told me that she had changed her self quite a bit and that I will have to respect that she doesn't move as fast in this manner as I do.

I told her that that's exactly what is wrong, I don't know that she loves me since she has told her friend otherwise, and I don't know that she won't cheat again, since she refuses to investigate her own feelings and rationalizations. 

When I asked her, for instance, exactly how she gave her self the permission to go all the way into the affair, she said the exact same thing as she did 14 months ago - "I felt you had withdrawn and that there had become a distance between us."

= Blameshifting, in my opinion

I also asked her what she would say if I asked her to drop her friend back from school (the one she confessed to about being there just for the kids). She said, that she would not accept that.

= I am not her first priority, since a friend is more important.
She tried to moderate that statement though, into "You are defintely my first priority, but I would not accept you telling me who I can talk to and not talk to."

I went for a long walk in the middle of the night to get a grip of my self.
I was absolutely destroyed the following two days trying to deal with this. So was she, by the way.

Since the weekend, she has been really, really loving and caring, being the one trying to cheer us both up again.

I think that I am back in "normal mode" again now. I have been thinking since yesterday about how to proceed this. Been reading "The four agreements" and have decided to:

1. IC for my self again with a new counselor - will try to have my insurance cover it. I will try to get a new angle on this.

2. Work 100% on myself. Lose the remaining 20 pounds, reach my goals in running, focus on my small spare time business (making websites for local businesses), I will gain from that no matter the outcome. She also tend to work more on us when she watches me grow and become more and more attractive.

3. Slowly detach myself from her so I can begin to act in a more independent way - that's also what I need IC for (childhood issues). Maybe we are both dependend on each other - she was 15 when I met her (I was 18), so who knows.

4. She showed interest in a book I was reading about finding your inner strength. She mentioned that she might want to read it too. So maybe I just have to push her against IC in baby steps.

5. Then we will see. I am not sure I see a future for us, but I would also like to not make the mistake of my life by ending it just to learn that she actually did regret and and did change her flirting and cheating mentality and behaviour.

So... strictly focus on me. I need to keep focus, and be aware of my own reelings and reactions so i don't end up lying to myself.


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## iheartlife

Thanks for the update. I also found that working hard on improving myself--not in a selfish way, but a healthy way--did far, far more toward changing my husband's perspective on things than any long talks ever did. You need to be healthy and self-confident and in a good place no matter what, may as well continue on that path as you know it is better for you all the way around.


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## Almostrecovered

a positive step, glad to hear it


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## oldmittens

update???


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## cpacan

It's been a while and I thought it's time for an update. Summer holidays are over for me now and batteries have been recharged.

This is a bit difficult post for me to write, since english is not my native language. I find it hard at times to include the shades that can make the difference in substance, so bear with me

I have had three sessions now with a very skilled and intelligent psychologist, paid by my health insurance - and he actually managed to challenge me and my view on things, much more productive than me talking to a therapist, who are listening and mumbling "hmmm..." (she did that OK

He definitely ruled depression out, which was why I was there, since I am very oriented towards solutions and improving my self and my situation. That's good - so I am just dealing with an "existencial life crisis" - nice to have a clinical label on me

He made me see, that I have been thinking this infidelity circus backwards. I have focused on my wife's recent LTA (9 months ended 15 months ago) and have searched for justifications, signs etc. going backwards, while she was actually flirty already 27 years ago when I met her first, and she has confessed to a ONS 20 years ago on DD.

The psychologist simply asked "How do think she managed to keep this a secret to you, not showing or telling you anything at all for 20 years??? Do you really believe that this is out of her character?"

This made me realize that this is actually who she is and who she has been for 27 years, I have just been blinded by her beauty and joyfull appearance. Which was what I felt for in the first place.

So I know now for sure, that unless she changes, this is who she was, who she is, and that she will cheat again in the future given the right circumstances and opportunity. Feels good and clarifying to write this...

I still doubt her motives to be in the relationship, so does the psyc. He suggested to make a post nup to minimize the damage should it happen again - and to call her out on her motives (!). I am a bit reluctant on this - doesn't feel quite right, but I am not discarding it just yet.

How are things going at home? Well we get along very well, as long as we don't talk relationship stuff... My wife is starting to plan long term house repairs and improvements etc. I accept it if it improves estate value or it is something we can split should we seperate.

She does not have any male friend conversations online or offline that I know of (I still verify frequently as much as I can). She doesn't flirt anymore, does not seek communities, chatforums or the alike - to my best knowledge that is.

She is very loving and sexual with me, I still doubt that she respect me (obviously), but we get by in a calm and nice manner.

I work out, focus on my well being, spending time with the kids, slowly regain some handy man power and step up to reclaim my male power in our relationship (elements from MMSL)

My feelings for my wife has changed. I don't love her the same way any more, her pedestral has been torn down and I do not imagine a rose colored fairy tail anymore. And I am very confident now, that I will manage if we seperate.

And maybe... had it not been for the kids, I would strongly consider moving on - but for now, I will see where things are heading... but holding my finger close to the trigger - I will definitely not put up with any more lies, that's a very clearly stated boundary.

Not sure if I have left anything out, but it's a start.


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## anonymouskitty

You're the man buddy, I'd call her out on her motives as your shrink suggested


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## Shaggy

You've come a long way for sure.

Yes, flirting and cheating is a part of the person she is. 

Here's the thing I've learned in life: People don't change at their core. They may make different decisions over time, but they don't change.

So going forward - how certain can you be that your wife is forever make the decision to not flirt and not cheat?


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## cpacan

Shaggy said:


> You've come a long way for sure.
> 
> Yes, flirting and cheating is a part of the person she is.
> 
> Here's the thing I've learned in life: People don't change at their core. They may make different decisions over time, but they don't change.
> 
> So going forward - how certain can you be that your wife is forever make the decision to not flirt and not cheat?


Thanks

Thing is... I can't be certain of that. I actually think of it the opposite way; I am almost positive that she will screw up one day or decide to leave when the kids are grown up. But that will be _her_ loss - I will be SO ready to deal with it, that she won't even know what eventually hit her.

And I still reserve the right to walk out the door as of tomorrow - that would have been unthinkable 15 months ago, I realize that today. Too dependant, but that has definitely changed.

I know now, that I am a good husband, father and attractive to women up to 10-15 years younger than me. So I am more confident now than before the affair.


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## Almostrecovered

the post nup sounds like a good idea

legally she might get around it, but it makes it more difficult


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## cpacan

Almostrecovered said:


> the post nup sounds like a good idea
> legally she might get around it, but it makes it more difficult


I agree, in my logic thinking. I earn more than twice her salary, which is quite OK. 

But I really wouldn't mind share our assets (and debt), we both fought hard to get where we are today, mutual supporting each other taking more hours during educations etc.

If I were to suggest a post nup, it would be to call her out on her motives to be with me, because that is what is bothering me the most. It would be nice to know, that the love she shows, and she does, is genuine.


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