# My miserable story.. where to go from here?



## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

I have cruised this site off and on in the past, this is my first post. I like a lot of the things on this site, my favorite is the blunt honesty some of you post. There are a few flamers here too, but you can't seem to get away from them no matter where you go.

I am posting here hoping for some insight, personal experience advice, general advice or whatever else may help. Also, just so I can get this out. I don't have many friends and I have gone to counseling on my own in the past with marital problems. The only thing they wanted to know is what my wife was up to this time. Almost more like water cooler gossip than anything else. Obviously, that wasn't beneficial to me and my situation. I know that I will see some replies that are obviously the wrong approach, but you take it how you get it I guess.

BTW, this is going to be VERY long and kinda jump around a bit, but considering where I am at emotionally and mentally, I will do my best to keep this as straight as I can. Also, I am putting this all here so someone can see our history together as well as a bit of a soul search on my own part. Read it if you like, skim it if you want.

I am not trying to demonize my wife, I know that I have issues here as well.. she is not to blame for everything that has gone wrong, we both are. Considering the state of our marriage, She does not want to continue, and I can't say that I really blame her. At times I don't either. Considering everything that has happened, my brain tells me to leave, things won't change and neither will she. But, my heart is the only thing stopping me.

Anyway, My wife and I have been together for 13 years, we have been married for 6 1/2. We have 3 children (1 from her previous marriage). We have numerous problems with ourselves and in our marriage. I know that the marriage cannot survive if we don't handle our own problems too. 

I don't even know where to start...

May as well go to the beginning.

I met my wife through a mutual friend. She was married at the time but was getting ready to split up. I was immediately enamored by her. But, I kept my distance other than just conversation due to the fact that she was married. I was careful to not get too involved with the conversation because I know how emotional affairs start, and I did not want to break up a marriage that could possibly be saved. Also, I knew that if that happened, I would be the guy that she cheated with because there was a spark between us that we both noticed. Anyway, She was at the same mutual friend’s house and was venting about her husband and how it wasn't working and all the problems they were having. I left because it was a situation I didn't want to be involved in. After a few weeks, her husband left and filed for divorce.. a few weeks later she called to talk to her friend and found out I was there. She wanted to talk to me and ended up inviting me over for a "slumber party", which I gladly accepted the invite.

We were friends with benefits for a while and didn't really get too serious. I ended up moving a couple months later to take a job. Her and the mutual friend kept in contact often and she ended up coming up to see her a couple times. She usually ended up in my bed each time. I started to really care for her and was concerned about the STBXH and the way he was treating and harassing her. I ended up at her house one weekend with a U-Haul and told her to pack up because she was leaving and would come live with us for a while, no strings attached. She had her own room in our place and nothing was expected between us. We ended up spending many nights together as she would come into my room when she got home from work. Some nights she just came in to snuggle or talk, others to have a little more fun. 

Before we were dating..
One time I was out of town for work, I came home and something just wasn't right. I was on my way to work and my roommate told me he had slept with her while I was gone. I asked her about it and she was embarrassed that it had happened. She said she woke up and he was on top of her, she originally thought it was me so went with it. I found this a bit had to believe and was a little hurt that it happened. But, considering we were just friends with benefits, there wasn't much ground for me to stand on. She told me it was none of my business and she didn't want to talk about it with me. I accepted this from her, since we weren't an official couple, and were just having some fun with each other, there was nothing that kept her from doing this. (some of you may disagree, but the fact is fact, we were just screwing each other, there was no commitment between us)

After a few months, things got a little heated between her and the mutual friend (read as, guy she slept with's on again/off girlfriend)and she wanted to move out and find her own place. She wanted me to come with her. We were officially "dating" before this point. This was something that I was a little unsure of, but I knew that she couldn’t find a better place if I helped to pay the bills and such. Don't get me wrong, I really wanted to pursue this relationship but was just a little nervous considering I had not had a relationship like this before. 

She ended up changing jobs and we moved into an apartment together. Things were tough but we made it through. There were times that I thought she may be messing around with someone else, but the feeling was just that, nothing really stood out as evidence to support it. She got pregnant and had some issues (miscarried a twin). Things were really pretty good between us. Other than the fact that I didn't pay enough attention to her. I spent a lot of time working either out of town or at home. I played too many video games at home and was neglecting her. I remember she used to actually get naked and jump around and wave her arms to get my attention from my computer. I was stupid and gave too much attention to games and not to my girlfriend. I have since solved this issue with the video games, but not with the giving her attention. That is completely my fault and I accept responsibility for it.

Then, another time I was out of town, I found out that a guy that she knew who worked across the hall from her store was over at our apartment. I had met him and he seemed like a nice guy. He came over and they hung out for a while. He ended up playing video games on my computer that was in the bedroom. She said she was tired and was going to bed. From what I know, he spent the night, but supposedly on the couch. Did something happen between them? I don't know. I asked and was told no. It is possible that nothing happened. But, it is also possible that something did and she didn't tell me the truth. Do I suspect that something happened? No. Am I fooling myself? Possibly, but I don't think I am.

She said many times that she didn't want to get married again for a long time. I was ok with that, but still wanted to ask her. Before I knew she was pregnant, I went and put a ring on "layaway". Since the jeweler knew her, they weren't worried about how long it took to pay it off, they knew I would and they kind of knew my situation. It wasn't the ring I wanted to get her, because I couldn't afford the one I really wanted, but it was a simple diamond ring and it is what it represents that is more important than the cost. Also, I figured I would be able to get a better one later, like a 5 year anniversary or something. I ended up asking her sooner than I thought because I wanted to start my family in a proper fashion. Even though I knew we would not get married for a while, I still wanted to feel like I was making an honest woman out of her. Call me old fashioned or something, it's ok.

After our daughter was born we decided that she should quit her job and be a SAHM. Mostly due to the fact that we couldn't afford daycare for a 3 y/o and a newborn. Also because she had a tough time getting and keeping daycare for our son. Things were tough, money was tight, I spent hours and hours trying to find the right kind of diapers for our daughter because she was allergic to the cloth disposables for some reason. I worked more and more, traveled more and more and ended up missing most of the firsts that come with being a parent. I felt so horrible that I would only get to see my family for a couple weeks at a time. It finally got to be enough when I heard my daughter’s first words.. they were "hi dada". Which is what my wife said every time I came home and she had my daughter with her. I was so happy to hear those words, but at the same time, it tore my heart out. In that moment, I was glad to be there for it, but at the same time, I thought again about all the other firsts I missed.

I changed jobs shortly later and didn't have to travel at all. Things were going great financially and we moved into a bigger place farther out of town. It seemed more and more problems were coming up between us. She told me I didn't listen to her (or something, I wasn't really listening.. haha.. just kidding) and that I don't communicate with her. She told me she has been on the verge of leaving for over a year. I didn't even know it.. I didn't see it coming at all. I thought we were doing ok, I never even thought about the things she said I wasn't doing. Not that I didn't care about them, I just never thought I wasn't doing them. I end up finding out that she had spent the last couple months talking to another guy on the internet. She would talk to him more and more and me less and less. She would tell him about times we had sex and his response would be something like "NO.. YOU'RE MY WIFE!". I think she was doing it for the attention she wasn't getting from me. I know they didn't ever meet because he lives in Egypt. Even though she did talk about wanting to go there.. after I found out she had been talking to him, I assume it was to finally meet him. I can only guess where that would have lead. (EA morphed to PA) We talked it out a few times and she decided to give it a shot to work out. 

She mentioned Couples Counseling and wanted us to go. Me, being the dumbass that I was, said No, we didn't need it. We could work this out on our own. (sound familiar?) Like I said, I was stupid and didn't understand what she was trying to do. It was dumb pride to think that telling someone else our problems would help. If I could go back in time, I would beat myself with a bat until dumb me agreed to go and put forth the effort required to be a better partner and friend to my fiancé. Not a day goes by (at least for the last year and a half and for months a couple years go) that I don't regret shutting down what she was trying to do and the help that could have changed our lives for the better.

After a few years, we had made progress and were working well together. We had another son on the way and were pretty happy. Then, my mother was having money and marital issues. She (fiancé) decided to talk me into moving my mother in with us to help her out. I was against it completely. She thought I was ungrateful towards my mother because I didn't want he to live with us. I told her we could help her financially or something, but I didn't want to move her into our house. She finally talked me into it. Things were going pretty good for a while, I was surprised that the two hens in the house didn't clash.

We bought a house..
We got married a little while later and things were still going pretty good. She was mad at me the night of the wedding because I didn't pay enough attention to her. I can understand that, but we ended up getting married in her parents yard with a VERY small audience. This was a last minute change due to family issues about who would stay where since we booked a bed and breakfast for the entire event. At the reception, we only knew about 10 people. The rest were friends of her parents that were invited just to have people over. There was a band playing bluegrass and I didn't know anyone. I did spend much of the evening with her by my side, but was very uncomfortable with all these strangers celebrating a wedding when they didn't even know who got married. We didn't have a traditional wedding night or a honeymoon. My boss offered to send us to Jamaica for our honeymoon, but she didn't want to go. We went home instead.

After a few months, things were getting stressful because of the two hens. (I saw it coming from the beginning) My wife didn't really talk much at all, to me or anyone else in the house. She was beginning to feel used by my mother. My mother ended up patching things up with her husband and he ended up moving in to my house too. This sure helped my wife’s already hurt feelings. 

We had made a few new friends over the years and my wife ended up throwing me a surprise birthday party. Which I really appreciated. I was surprised and was happy that she had put so much thought into it. Everyone there was a friend, family or co-worker and we had a really great time. Oh, except for one guy I hadn't met before, he ended up coming with my sister in law. Apparently he had talked to my wife a few times and was a pretty nice guy. We hung out after the party and more after that. We were into urban exploring and usually ended up going with him since he knew a few places. He and my wife went a few times together and they also rode his four wheeler around the city. They had lots of fun together. He would come over and just hang out quite often. I began to get jealous and suspicious of their time together. One time when he and I were out together we were talking, the subject came to my wife. I told him that I would beat the crap out of a guy that came onto her. He was immediately nervous and changed the subject. That's when I knew. I gave it a couple days to let it simmer to make sure I wasn't just overly jealous and then I asked her if something was going on between them. She immediately said no. She didn't really respond to my reasoning of suspicion either. 

I ended up spying on my wife and found her typing an email to him. It was plain as day that I was right. I printed the email before she could delete it from her sent box and took it home with me. She was getting ready to go to a meeting so I followed her outside and calmly asked her again if there was something going on between them. She laughed and said "No, nothing was going on." I reached in my pocket and handed her the folded up email. Before she could see what it was, I asked, are you sure? Again she snickered and said "No, nothing is going on, we are just friends and hang out. He's your friend too." A tear ran down my cheek and I told her to open the paper and turned around and went in the house. When I got to the door, I turned around to see her.. the look on her face was that of horror. She was caught. I gave her ample opportunity to tell me the truth, or even part of the truth, that maybe he came onto her or something, she lied to me and it cut me deeper than anything had before. I still have not healed from it.. and that was about 6 years ago.. and less than a year into our marriage.

I talked to her about NC and she agreed.. instead of a letter or email to him, I decided a sit down with the three of us was the best approach. I did not was a physical confrontation with him, I wanted us to handle it like adults. She didn't want to do it, but agreed because I was so adamant. It was a VERY uncomfortable situation, but we handled it and all left with the same impression.. that it was over and he they would never contact each other again. A couple weeks later, he sent her an email asking how she was doing. She told me about it and I contacted him to re-explain how things were going to work and what things weren't going to happen. I was much more brutal about it and we have not heard from him again.

My wife’s excuse for the A was not me or our relationship, it was the situation in the house and her relationship with my mother. When I asked her why it happened she didn't elaborate. So, I asked a few other questions. It ended up being a few factors that I had to pry out of her. It was fun, exciting, an outlet for her and she didn't have to think about the stress at home.

She was remorseful about it and didn't want to hurt me, but did it anyway. (I'm sure many have heard that before) She became very aggressive sexually with me, I didn't want to give in because I was still hurting quite a lot, but did anyway. Don't get me wrong here, I love my wife and our sex life (when we have one) is great. But, I didn't want to reject her considering the situation we were in. The last thing I wanted to do was push her away. Especially considering my number one priority was to keep my wife happy and keep my family together.

I ended up taking my mother out for coffee a few days later and explained to her what was going on. She had already suspected that something was going on with my marriage and that my wife had strayed. It was a difficult thing to do, but I gave my mother and her husband 60 days to move. She understood where I was and that the burden was becoming too heavy to bare. She knew that it was stressing my marriage and was sorry that her living with us was driving a wedge between my wife and I. She ended up moving out before the 60 timeframe and things at my house were much more calm. My wife and I began the healing process and things were going pretty well. 

A couple years later, I got hit with the same train as before.. she was unhappy.. I didn't communicate with her, didn't listen to her or understand her. She was also tired of not working and due to some money issues she wanted to get a job and help support our family. I was happy that she wanted to get a job and I wanted to work on our problems. She wasn't in the frame of mind to work on them and just wanted to get a job and have her space. I understood where she was coming from. She ended up finding a job at night (10p - 5a) at a parcel transfer warehouse. I was completely not ok with this. It was 45 minutes away, nights and we would never have any family time together, or time for her and I. The more I tried to tell her I was against it, the more she wanted to do it. So, she took the job. 

I was worried about her every time she would leave the house. She usually can't drive 15 minutes during the day before she is so tired that she is almost falling asleep. Now she is leaving at night for work and driving home early in the morning after a very physical job. I can't put a number on the times that I thought she would end up falling asleep and wrecking her car. After a few months, she asked if I minded her carpooling with a guy from work since she drives by his house anyway on the way. I was reluctant but told her I didn't mind. More because I was worried about her being too tired to make it home alive than anything else. Soon after, she began leaving earlier and getting home later. Being married and sleeping alone every night is a very lonely feeling. Worse than I even imagined it being. On nights she didn't have to work, she would end up going out to "hang out" with people from work since they were all on the same schedule. She would end up going to movies with her carpool guy quite often as well. Also during this time, she was more involved with her cell phone and messaging on the internet. She hardly had any time with the family since she slept all day, didn't eat dinner with us anymore and usually got the kids off to school soon after she got home.

After a little while of this new behavior, I asked her is something was going on between her and her carpool guy. She laughed and said "no, nothing is going on." Due to the way she answered me and her exact words as before, I was even more suspicious. I asked her a couple more times over the next few weeks and I kept getting the same response. I ended up spying on my wife again.. this time I got a little more sophisticated. I had a GPS tracker on my vehicle (not illegal since it was MY vehicle she drove) and a Voice Recorder hidden as well. I quickly had hard evidence to a new affair. Instead of confronting her with it, I decided to try a little probing in my marriage and asked her other questions about how we were and if we could work on our relationship and get things between us back on track. She had no interest in it. I kept the evidence under wraps and was more persistent on getting her to come back into the relationship. I suggested Marriage Counseling and she immediately shot it down. Not because she didn't think we needed it.. only out of spite because when she wanted it, I wouldn't go. It was payback time.

I ended up seeing a counselor on my own.. this was a complete waste of time. The only thing they wanted to know is what she was up to this week. It felt more like a water cooler gossip meeting than anything else. I only went to about 4 sessions.

I gave her space and tried to figure out how to get her back. I kept watching, found notes back and forth between them and just became more and more infuriated. I knew his birthday was coming up and decided to see what she was going to do. I noticed that she was hiding something when she was leaving. I knew something was up. I had the GPS in the van and watched with horror from home as she left to "go to work". She went shopping at a store, then went to an adult store, went to get something to eat and started heading up the highway. Not 10 minutes later, my vehicle was parked at a motel.

The words 'hurt, furious, exasperated and heartbroken' do not even begin to explain how I felt at that moment. I ended up calling a guy from work and he came over to pick me up. We ended up at the motel they were at. The guy at the front desk wouldn't tell me what room they were in or even call the room for me. But I knew they were there because a copy of carpool guy's driver’s license was sitting less than 6 inches from me. After a few unanswered texts and phone calls to my wife, I went to the van. Inside I found the clothes she wore when she left the house. I took the GPS and voice recorder. I left behind the anniversary present I got for her, since it was coming up very soon. I went home disappointed that I didn't get a confrontation.

She came home around her usual time and didn't say anything to me.. I was awake because I couldn't sleep. After the kids went to school, I walked into the kitchen and the arguing began. It lasted a good while and I don't even remember half of what was said. The only things that stuck in my mind were her saying that she didn't care what I thought about it and had no intention of ending her affair with him. Also, she wanted a separation. I told her I didn't want a separation, I wanted to resolve the issues and stay together.

After a month or so, she and I talked more about it and decided to try again. She ended the affair and told him that if he contacted her again, she would tell me and he would get to deal with me. He stopped.. for a couple weeks. Then he sent her an email to say hey and that he missed her. She told me about it and told him that she told me.. she reiterated to him that she does not wish to hear from him and that it was over between them. That lasted a few weeks and then another email came in. This one was a much longer email stating the same things as before.. he missed her, couldn't stop thinking about her and wished she would leave me and go back to him. As far as I know, she never responded and he left her alone after that.

We started working on things again, but they were never the same. Which in a way is a good thing, considering the same is what got us to this point again. But bad because we never really worked on the problems that caused the affair. She didn't want to talk about it and that the only thing I was doing by bringing it up was to "throw it in her face". We half ass worked on our marriage from this point on. I wanted to work more but honestly couldn't find the desire to try considering she wouldn't talk about the affair. It was something that NEEDED to be dealt with. Not the sex itself.. the reasoning behind it. Sex is sex.. the sex isn't the problem.. it's the reason she did it and the feelings that became of it on both of our sides that needed to be handled. (this was about 4 years into our marriage)

After all of this, we didn't really have a strong bond anymore. It was more 'going through the motions'. The problems were pretty much swept under the rug. I kept trying to pull them out and it only made things worse. So, we made the mistake of just leaving them there where she wanted them.

She started to have some medical problems and ended up diagnosed with severe vein disease. This scared us both pretty bad.. We needed to come up with $10,000 to get it taken care of. I had no idea how we would manage this. We tried to plan a way to get it taken care of. Nothing really panned out. Something always came up that we had to spend money on. Nothing we tried was helpful to save money. But, looking back, neither of us really put forth the effort that we needed to. It wasn't something that could not have been resolved, it just didn't happen.

A couple more years go by and we seem relatively happy. She isn't, but she puts on a good show. One night I am out of town. I give her a call and she tells me that a mutual friend and her have been talking. Apparently, he isn't happy in his marriage and wants out. At that moment, I knew my own marriage was in jeopardy. With them talking about marital problems, I knew ours were discussed as well. This only brought them to a head for her, and I was blindsided. After all, misery loves company. 

I tried when I got back to talk to her and she didn't really have much to say. She was too busy texting with the friend of ours. She spent nearly every minute of every day texting back and forth with him. I looked one month and she had sent over 15000 text messages to him alone. Considering the amount of sent and received messages between them, I did the math and figured out that there was a message sent on an average of 1 every 30 seconds for the entire month.


We found out that some insurance companies would cover the vein problems she was having and talked about how to get her on it. We did get her on it, but she didn't use it for awhile. There was a waiting period and we didn't have the money for the deductible.

I tried to talk to her numerous times.. she didn't care that I was even there most of the time. We fought about how much time she spent talking to him and not to me. Even our kids complained to me about not being able to talk to her anymore. She would get mad at them for asking her questions. They didn't ask personal questions or why she was on her phone all the time. Just normal kid questions.

She wanted to get a job and be more independent. She wanted to get the money together to get her veins taken care of. Mostly since I wouldn't do it and apparently didn't care if she lived or not. Her family didn't try to help either. (her words, not mine) 

I ended up going on another trip and thought long and hard about what I should do to try to get things back where they should be. When I got back in town, I asked her if we were ok.. she immediately started crying and said "no, we are not Ok. I am not happy at all. You abandoned me when I needed you the most." The friend heard about what was going on and decided to try to help. He put together a benefit for her and raised money. He had an account setup so people could donate money that couldn't make it to the event. I was happy that she would be able to get her medical issue dealt with, but was also faced with the fact that she would decide that I didn't care enough to do something and he did. That was July of last year.

That was the last breaking point for us. We have not been living together as husband and wife since then. We are merely roommates. I found proof later that she was having an EA with this guy. It was more than a friendship. There were plenty of sexy pics, innuendos and flirts to pass the everyday friendship or even the really close friend boundary line. They ended up having a falling out and have not spoken in months. I am pretty sure that is because he wanted to get in her pants and she didn't want to. Not that she wasn't attracted to him, more so because of the fact that it turns out that he was quite the man *****. Prostitutes while he was deployed in the army to the random women all over the place. She did get about $600 from the benefit proceeds, but he has never given her the money collected in the account. Some friend huh?

In July, she told me didn't want to try right now, and she didn't want me to try right now. She wants a separation, which she said I wouldn't give her before. She pointed out things that I wasn't doing. Like helping with housework or projects around the house that I never finished. So, I gave her what she asked for. She slept on the couch most nights (because I won't) and began doing her own thing. I did a LOT more housework. She eventually came up to me one night when we were fighting and was threatening me with a nasty divorce and to stay out of her way with the housework. So, I backed off of the things I was doing around the house.

This has been going on almost a year now. She spends lots of time texting and emailing. A few months ago, she wanted to talk to me. She sat down for a minute and just started balling her eyes out. She got up and hugged me for about 10 minutes, still crying the whole time. She eventually told me that it wasn't working and she wanted out. I told her that is not what I wanted. We talked more, but didn't really gain any traction in either direction.

She has even enrolled in college, which I found about right before her first class. You know, good for her. I am glad that she is getting back into school and can have a better shot at a career. She blames me for her quitting when our daughter was born and that I have treated her like a glorified house keeper. She cleans, cooks, takes care of my kids and has to put out. (again, her words) She says that I have kept her from having a career, haven't let her be happy, don't care about her and never have, don't love her and never have and I have only done the things in our relationship because I have been obligated to do them. 

I have noticed that she has been spending an awful lot of time talking to a guy she met on a weight loss website. She will go for a walk and talk to him for at least a couple hours at a time. Naturally she doesn't tell me this, but the website for the cell company does. They have sent gifts through the mail a few times and he has sent he money, most likely for her cell phone since I have made numerous comments about how I am not happy paying for it considering what she has been using it for.

A couple weeks ago, I am out of town for work and have a feeling something just isn't right. After I get back, I discover (because I was snooping again) that the guy she has been talking to came to visit her. He came almost 1400 miles to see her. This is defiantly something that was planned out in advance. There are pictures of them together, hanging on each other like a couple teenagers in love. There are pictures of them kissing. And there is a picture of her, in his hotel room putting her pants on. I asked her if she was seeing someone. She laughs and said no. I asked her if she has slept with someone else, again, laughing and a no. But that one was a little different. More of a nervous laugh. I confronted her about what I had found. She denies sleeping with him. She says she needed to changes her clothes because they were dirty. I asked her why they were dirty and she just laughed. No answer. I asked her why she would have a change of clothes with her at all. More laughter and no answer. She still denies it and won't tell me anything more. She told me that he doesn't even know that she is married. That was probably another lie, I heard her talking about me to him. Maybe she referred to me as her Ex, but I don't know. Most likely she didn't tell him she's married. After all, she told me that there is nothing left for her in the marriage. It is dead and needs to be buried. 

Since then I have talked with her a few times about our marriage and if there is a future for it or not. I have told her that I do want to try to make it work. But, I also have decided that I want her to be happy.. if it's with me, then great.. if not, then great. She asked me how I could still love her since I don't trust her, don't care about her and don't respect her. That was a difficult question to respond to. It isn't the actions that someone does for you that make you love them. It is just the person themselves. 
Some of you will tell me to pack and run. Others may think that there is something left to build on. 
Yet others will tell me that I am too co-dependent and that is why I keep trying to keep us together. To you I say, I know that I can move on away from this marriage. I know that I can be happy without my wife. I know that I can eventually meet someone else who may be a better match for me and live 'happily ever after' (if there is such a thing). But, I got married to this woman because I love her, I always have. Nothing has changed that, even with the affairs and other issues. I believe any problem can be worked out and things can be better than they were before. I got married for better or worse... this is the worse. I don't see the solution being to abandon the marriage. I see that as running from the problem. Now, If we can work things out and we decide that we are better off apart, then that is different. It's not running away.

So, if you got this far, I commend you. I'm sure it was a bit boring in parts and more detail than needed.

Again, I appreciate thoughts, advice or comments.


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## DaKarmaTrain! (May 17, 2012)

Buddy, I am sorry, but you appear to suffer from the same mental deficiency I suffered from for years (and I'm talking from the experience of 3 different reconcilliation attempts with the same woman, and we have 2 children):

You don't know when to quit. It sounds completely unworkable. It will never get better. You need to move on. Sorry...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Exactly how many affairs has she had? Do you think there are any you do not know about?

What do you think is your way forward?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

My comment and advice? Move on. Your wife is a serial cheater who at every step has walked away from you, and her vows. She easily jumps into another man's bed like I buy new tires for my car.


In the 6 1/2 years you have been married - she's been with numerous men, numerous affairs. And each time she has blamed you, and you've accepted the blame.

You sir are a white knight, and she is a broken woman who without remorse or care jumps into bed with other men.

she may be the mother of your children, but she has never ever been your wife.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

> She ended up changing jobs and we moved into an apartment together. Things were tough but we made it through. There were times that I thought she may be messing around with someone else, but the feeling was just that, nothing really stood out as evidence to support it. She got pregnant and had some issues (miscarried a twin).


One thing that alarmed me was this part of your story, where she is being pregnant after she was possibly involved with other men. This is a sadly common situation with women who are serial cheaters, you might be shocked how often children that look like the dad actually aren't biologically his and he doesn't know it. Or maybe you aren't particularly surprised, given the frequency with which she seeks sex outside of your relationships. 

Have you been tested for STDs?


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Only thing that comes to my mind is you should get tested for STDs.

Oh and please protect yourself financially and move on.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

pmiller said:


> To you I say, I know that I can move on away from this marriage. I know that I can be happy without my wife. I know that I can eventually meet someone else who may be a better match for me and live 'happily ever after' (if there is such a thing).* But, I got married to this woman because I love her, I always have*.


Yes but from what you tell us, she never has and probably never will. It's well and good that you love your wife but if she can't reciprocate those feelings by staying committed to you and _loving you_ as her husband, then you're just bailing a sinking ship with a bucket. Unless you'd agree to having an open marriage, I suspect every-time your wife decides to cheat she'll pick another petty excuse to justify her actions i.e your mother, lack of housework etc



> Nothing has changed that, even with the affairs and other issues. I believe any problem can be worked out and things can be better than they were before. I got married for better or worse... this is the worse. I don't see the solution being to abandon the marriage. I see that as running from the problem. Now, If we can work things out and we decide that we are better off apart, then that is different. It's not running away.


If you're willing to reconcile, the best of luck to you, but again, marriage is not a one way street. Your wife has to show interest in reconciling as well. If your spouse is cheating on you, telling you she wants out and there's an absence of any serious marital problems then it's pretty clear she checked out a long time ago, and I'd be surprised if she ever checked in to be honest.


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

DaKarmaTrain!: I feel the pain you had with your situation. You may be right, there is no saving my marriage. I have accepted that. But I still feel that I need to try. Like you said, I don't know when to quit.

MattMatt: I put the official total at: 2 confirmed PAs (started as EAs), 1 before we were actually together, so that one is difficult to count, 4 EAs (one became a stalker didn't even put that in my OP.. figured it was long enough, and the last one is yet unconfirmed to be a PA)

Shaggy: I hear exactly what you are saying.. I have thought about this for a long time, and like I said.. everything my mind tells me is that it is over, I just have yet to convince my heart that there isn't a chance to get it back and make it better. However, I have told her that I do NOT accept the blame for her affairs.. I do accept the blame for marital problems that have pushed her away. It was HER decision entirely that put her in the As, and I do NOT accept that blame. I would disagree that I am a White Knight, just a good scape goat. Part of me wants to stick it out so at least if we do D, then she will not be introducing numerous men to my children. I don't want my kids to think their mother is a s**t. And you are right, she has no remorse.. knew that before I married her. I can't think of a time that she even had a guilty conscience for something.

Again, I am not disagreeing with you guys... just trying to get a different perspective on things and try to make a good decision that I can live with without regret.


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## DaKarmaTrain! (May 17, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Exactly how many affairs has she had? Do you think there are any you do not know about?
> 
> What do you think is your way forward?


Like I said MattMatt, this fellow suffers from the same delusions I did (and that admittedly, I still do from time to time). He believes if there is a will there is a way. That a leopard can change its spots. That she will one day magically come around, realize what she has done to him/the kids and change her ways.

Was her metal health mentioned here?? Looks like she has some issues.


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## jh52 (Apr 29, 2012)

You should have listened to your wife when she told you " She eventually told me that it wasn't working and she wanted out."


You said :" I told her that is not what I wanted."

With all her cheating on you even before you were married -- why would you want to remain married?

It is not about what you want -- she wants out -- and told you so -- thus since she has cheated on you so many times in this thread I can't count -- why would you be surprised she is cheating on you again?

I don't know if you ever saw the movie Ground Hog Day -- but you are definitely living it now.

She is the mother of you child -- and will be part of your life. Your # 1 priority should be to your childdren -- # 2 is yourself.

Set her free -- hopefully sometime in her life she will seek help and find out why she is like she is. Until then -- she will cheat everytime she can.

Good luck !!


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## DaKarmaTrain! (May 17, 2012)

pmiller said:


> DaKarmaTrain!: I feel the pain you had with your situation. You may be right, there is no saving my marriage. I have accepted that. But I still feel that I need to try. Like you said, I don't know when to quit


And believe me pmiller, I know the EXACT pain you are going through and your burning desire to end it. You have my utmost sympathies.

But as the saying goes, you can't change anyone else, only yourself. Your brain realizes this, but your heart refuses to accept it. I still struggle...it is a million times better than it was in the beginning, but I still feel it a little everyday...and I am going on 8 months now.


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

iHeartLife: I hear what you're saying. I understand that there a lot of cases of that. But, the way I see it, it doesn't matter if the kids are not biologically mine. They are my kids. I know our oldest son isn't mine, he was born before we even met. But, that is my son. A paternity test will not change that fact for me.

keko: I have already been investigating the best way to defend myself financially.. but thanks for the heads up.

Complexity: I understand your point of view. But, when things are good between us, I do feel loved. I also understand that it seems that she is only married when it's convenient and things are good. As for your second comment.. I know that reconciliation is a very difficult street to cross. Seems like playing frogger.. move forward, move back and sometimes you get smashed by a big a** truck. But there isn't an absence of marital problems right now. We have our share and then some. As far as her checking back in, honestly, I don't know if she is able to do that, and if she tried, if it is actually true. How bad does that sound? Hard to want to keep a marriage together when you don't know if your spouse is really on board or not.


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

This was a very sad story. You know what to do.
1. Get tested for STD's just in case. Cheaters never tell the whole truth.
2. Get a paternity test just in case.
3. See a lawyer for your options.
She has no respect for you whatsoever. If you do not respect yourself then who will?


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

whitelamp said:


> I guess there are nice things about being doormats, maybe we will get cleaned and vacuumed once in awhile.


That actually made me laugh, quite hard actually. Thank you, I haven't laughed like that in quite a while.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Reconcilliation is might have worked after the first affair. Maybe in strained way after the second. But at this point, seriously, I think her true colors have been seen clearly.

She simply isn't cut out for marriage.

I find you comment about no remorse ever interesting. I can't help but wonder if she doesn't suffer from one of the many mental health issues that simply prevent her from feeling empathy and from feeling remorse. She sounds like the perpetual victim relying upon the kindness of strangers.


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

bryanp: I do respect myself.. maybe I'm not as high on myself as I should be, but I do have self respect. 
1. I have been tested a few times thanks to my wondering spouse.. negative all the way around.. just a little high cholesterol and some high blood pressure, probably again due to her. 
2. That will do me no good at all. Just cause me more emotional pain if one of them aren't mine. 
3. Already on my list of things to do in the very near future. better to be prepared just in case.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

pmiller said:


> 2. That will do me no good at all. Just cause me more emotional pain if one of them aren't mine.


You might want to reconsider this for possible future health problems of your kids.


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## DaKarmaTrain! (May 17, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> I find you comment about no remorse ever interesting. I can't help but wonder if she doesn't suffer from one of the many mental health issues that simply prevent her from feeling empathy and from feeling remorse. She sounds like the perpetual victim relying upon the kindness of strangers.


I know it has been said before Shaggy, but again the mental health of the WS seems to be a huge factor in almost every story I have read on TAM. My STBXW's mental health was obviously a key influence to all her behaviors...


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

to many: mentioning the state of my wife's mental health has been disastrous for me in the past. I do know she contemplated suicide in the past.. it was when she worked nights. I found out about it over a year later. No other things have led to believe that she is actually suicidal. If there were, I would immediately be on the phone with the police and have her "watched" for the required 24 hours. Of course, that information would be kept for a lawyer if it comes to that..lol


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

keko said:


> You might want to reconsider this for possible future health problems of your kids.


Never thought of it this way... point taken


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

pmiller said:


> to many: mentioning the state of my wife's mental health has been disastrous for me in the past. I do know she contemplated suicide in the past.. it was when she worked nights. I found out about it over a year later. No other things have led to believe that she is actually suicidal. If there were, I would immediately be on the phone with the police and have her "watched" for the required 24 hours. Of course, that information would be kept for a lawyer if it comes to that..lol


Does your wife have any past history of sexual/emotional abuse?


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## sunshinetoday (Mar 7, 2012)

You sound like a great man and a very understanding guy. Please know there is something seriously wrong with you wife to repeat these behaviors. I can't think of a better reason to divorce her, then the reasons she has already given you. You can't see it now but in time you and your kids can be truly HAPPY w/o her as your wife. Good luck.


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

Also, I am amazed to how many replies I have received already... that post took me 3 days to compile.

Thank you for taking the time to read it


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

Complexity: None that I am aware of.. I know her dad has had some mental issues in the past.. but as long as we have been together, it is difficult for me to see them. It's usually an outsider that notices first.

sunshinetoday: Thank you for the kind words.. haven't heard any in a long time. I also think something is wrong with my wife.. pretty sure its me


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

I think you definitely need to ask her if there are underlying reasons to her cheating beyond the marital problems because any rational person that actually placed value on their relationship wouldn't choose to abandon it so easily. The blame shifting and not taking ownership for her actions just fits this pattern. Her latching on to every man that gives her attention is a sign of an individual that has very low self esteem and needs constant validation. I think that 10 minute hug was a cry for something.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Why should she change? You keep forgiving her. So should she? What is your breaking point?


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

I have already decided that I will not pursue my wife or marriage any more. I already feel taken advantage of.. she fits the cakeeater mold pretty well. I have already made arrangements to leave if I decide to. I already plan to work on myself.. maybe she will come around maybe she won't. I just find it hard to pull the plug myself.


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## GhostRydr (Jun 2, 2012)

Wow..I read it all.

I dont know if you are Man of the Decade or just one of those people who hits themself in the head with the proverbial hammer expecting a different result other than PAIN?

Even the POPE would tell you to LEAVE THIS WOMAN!

Id like to know why her first marriage ended...I wouldnt be surprised she was the cause of it.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

I think you shouldn't take her back. I some sense, you enabled her behavior for far too long. You protected her from consequences. Take care of your kids. I'm pretty sure they already have some f*cked up ideas about adulthood already. The after affects would be in their teens . keep a sharp watch on them when they are growing up


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

Complexity: I also think that was a cry for something as well. Given that hug and the fact that she has had ample opportunity to leave, even with me telling her that I would leave and continue to pay for the house and bills (don't bash me here, I have kids to think about too) she hasn't said anything other than "I don't know how to process all this" or "Why do you only want to work on it when I have thrown in the towel" 

warlock07: She should because she knows she is loved. But that is her decision to make, I can't make it for her. As far as my breaking point.. Through this whole thing, I am surprised I haven't found it yet. I used to have a VERY short temper.. I would have thrown her stuff out the window the first time I found out what she had done. Mentally, I have passed my point, emotionally, I am still hanging on although I don't know how or why anymore


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

You can love someone with all your heart - that doesn't mean they value that love or that it comforts them.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

> warlock07: *She should because she knows she is loved.* But that is her decision to make, I can't make it for her. As far as my breaking point.. Through this whole thing, I am surprised I haven't found it yet. I used to have a VERY short temper.. I would have thrown her stuff out the window the first time I found out what she had done. Mentally, I have passed my point, emotionally, I am still hanging on although I don't know how or why anymore


Se wouldn't because she does not need to. You seem to put up with it and the inconvenience is minor. Cry some more once in a while and shift the blame on you.


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

GhostRydr: I sure wouldn't nominate myself for man of the year. Maybe I am a walking definition of insanity. Her first marriage ended because her Ex was a complete a**hole. An alcoholic, treated her like crap and would come home and pass out. (I knew him, so it isn't just her side)

warlock07: after the first PA, I will admit that I shielded her from the backlash of friends and family. But that was the extent of it. I was concerned that people would not see her the same or look down on her. I did it out of love, and looking back, probably shouldn't have.


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> You can love someone with all your heart - that doesn't mean they value that love or that it comforts them.


Unfortunately, that seems to be the motto of my marriage


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Ok, I just went over your story again. You have a _very_ serious problem showing attention to your wife. I think you've downplayed just how important it is to her and I notice she's repeatedly warned you about it. Don't take this the wrong way, but I think you went into this marriage with a very immaturish attitude, not in relation to being a provider but to what you're expected of as a husband. I think alot women connote lack of attention with a lack of love and that has built up a lot of resentment and probably brought back memories of her ex.


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

She also played the friend card.. I thought I handled it pretty well.. She said, Even after all this, I still want you to be my friend.
So, I replied.. considering how things have gone between us so far, why would I want to be friends with you? I am ran through the gutter and am taken advantage of. Friendship is not about what you can get from someone. That didn't go over so well..lol


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

Complexity: I would agree with that.. She has brought it up numerous times.. and I thought I was giving her the attention she needed. You're right, I didn't give her what she needed, and she looked for it somewhere else. She found it, and when I told her I could do it and lets try again, I still didn't do it right. It isn't that she expects too much from me, it's that I don't understand what it is she needs. If I would have realized that years ago, I don't think our marriage would be in the state it is in now. That leads to the communication that she isn't getting from me. I wish she would, and have told her to, grab me by the ears and say "LOOK, THIS IS MY PROBLEM, THIS IS WHAT I NEED!" but she hasn't. She still says that I don't do them.. I just don't understand how I am supposed to. And she doesn't want to tell me what I actually need to do to be the husband she needs. That's where the counseling would help. But, now she refuses to go. I think that if I started going and invited her each time, she would eventually come around and go. But, I am not willing to turn a blind eye to the fact that she still talks to this guy and may have plans to meet up again. 

I refuse to be a plan B and I also refuse to move forward with our relationship if she is going to have someone else as a plan B.. it's all or nothing.

I also told here a week ago that we either start working on our marriage or we cut it where it is and walk away.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

So long as there's a 3rd person in this relationship and she refuses to give him up then there can never be any reconciliation. I think you should begin the divorce proceedings (which you can cancel at anytime) and see if she comes around then. If she doesn't, then there's no point flogging a dead horse.


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

Agree completely on the 3rd person.. and will not be willing to work on things if she says she wants to if he is still lingering around, better hidden or the same.

But, Like I said before.. I don't know that I am ready to be the one that pulls the plug on this. No matter what happens If we work things out or walk away, I have be a better man when I come out on the other side. Either for her or someone else.


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

Part of my problem might be because I don't understand the cheater mentality. Numerous times I have had the opportunity, when times were good and when they were bad at home. I have never even thought " hey, this is a good way to get some pleasure. My response is "No, I'm married and I love my wife." It has never been "Sorry, I am married" In that situation, the sorry sounds more like "I would, but don't want to get in trouble"

Maybe it's just me, but I don't even think about how life would be if I hadn't met her or got married. I don't see life that way. There are only forks in the road in front of you.. the road behind is always straight.


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

And I am sorry that I am hashing every thought on here.. but honestly, I have nobody else to talk to about it. Wife isn't rational about it, she can only see her side. Mother in Law wants to stay out of it and a friend that I could talk to has the mentality of "screw them before they screw you". You guys are complete strangers and have more input than any of them. 

So, I am glad this board is here and that members here are taking the time out of their own lives to listen to mine. It actually means a lot to me that someone is out there, listening and can understand where I am at and can lend advise at to where I should head.


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## Fvstringpicker (Mar 11, 2012)

pmiller said:


> and I thought I was giving her the attention she needed. You're right, I didn't give her what she needed, and she looked for it somewhere else. She found it, and when I told her I could do it and lets try again, I still didn't do it right. It isn't that she expects too much from me, it's that I don't understand what it is she needs.


PM, have you ever thought that maybe you can't give her what she needs. Some women just need the attention of lots of men. It appear she is one of these and unfortunately she got her hooks into you. One guy isn’t enough for her. But you need to remember one thing that will always be true no matter what you're lead to believe. When a woman commits adultery, its always her fault.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

pmiller,

There are millions of spouses, men and women, who have not have had their "emotional needs" satisfied by their spouses in a very long time and yet they never cheat on them. Why? Because they have refused to cross marital boundaries which would have left them vulnerable to having an affair. Now in your case, you could have come to being the perfect husband and yet your wife would still have cheated on you because she is a woman who doesn't care about violating marital boundaries. Blaming yourself for her serial cheating is ludicrous.


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

I have said before.. I do not accept the blame for her cheating.. and I never will. That was a decision she made without me. The only thing I can accept blame for are my own short comings that pushed her away. When she fell into another guys bed, that isn't my fault. It is possible that no matter how perfect a husband I was or wasn't she would have strayed anyway. Naturally, I would like to believe that she wouldn't have. But that is because I love her and want to think she is an honest person. It is obvious that she isn't an honest person, but it is also obvious that I didn't do my part to fulfill her needs as a husband, partner and/or friend.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

She had other options such as communicating with you about her needs and counseling, and if you were still refusing your duties as her husband, then she had the option of separating and ultimately divorcing you. Instead she chose the cowardly way of lies and deceit through a series of affairs.

Look, for a marriage to be happy and healthy it needs equal doses of mutual love, trust and respect. Sadly she has shown that she has none of those three ingredients for you, not through one affair but many affairs and she probably never will.


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## Fvstringpicker (Mar 11, 2012)

pmiller said:


> but it is also obvious that I didn't do my part to fulfill her needs as a husband, partner and/or friend.


And what do you predict the outcome would have been if you'd did do your part?


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

morituri said:


> pmiller,
> 
> There are millions of spouses, men and women, who have not have had their "emotional needs" satisfied by their spouses in a very long time and yet they never cheat on them. Why? Because they have refused to cross marital boundaries which would have left them vulnerable to having an affair. Now in your case, you could have come to being the perfect husband and yet your wife would still have cheated on you because she is a woman who doesn't care about violating marital boundaries. Blaming yourself for her serial cheating is ludicrous.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

pmiller said:


> I have said before.. I do not accept the blame for her cheating.. and I never will. That was a decision she made without me. The only thing I can accept blame for are my own short comings that pushed her away. *When she fell into another guys bed*, that isn't my fault. It is possible that no matter how perfect a husband I was or wasn't she would have strayed anyway. Naturally, I would like to believe that she wouldn't have. But that is because I love her and *want to think she is an honest person*. It is obvious that she isn't an honest person, but it is also obvious that I didn't do my part to fulfill her needs as a husband, partner and/or friend.


REALLY? She JUMPED into multiple beds dude! I'm not even going to comment on the Honest quote.

So you have 4 pages of replies right now. Not a single respondent thinks it is a good idea to pursue a continued relationship with this woman. I'm sorry for you and your plight. I hope you will consider your children and the damage your continued relationship with this broken woman is having on them.

What were/are you hoping for from this thread? If it is advice, it sure seems you have received unanimous recommendations to move on. If it is sympathy, you certainly have mine and that of most of the other posters. 

Good luck.


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## Posse (Jan 30, 2012)

KanDo said:


> REALLY? She JUMPED into multiple beds dude! I'm not even going to comment on the Honest quote.
> 
> So you have 4 pages of replies right now. Not a single respondent thinks it is a good idea to pursue a continued relationship with this woman. I'm sorry for you and your plight. I hope you will consider your children and the damage your continued relationship with this broken woman is having on them.
> 
> ...


You should have cut your losses the First time she cheated on you. She sounds like she is nucking futs!! Get out while you have some small sense of self dignity and self respect left. You can't have much if you have put up with what you have. Have you seen an IC to help you figure out why you are willing to put up with her neverending crappy behavior (and that is a VERY gentle description of what she has done). Run, don't walk, away!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

pmiller said:


> Agree completely on the 3rd person.. and will not be willing to work on things if she says she wants to if he is still lingering around, better hidden or the same.
> 
> But, Like I said before.. I don't know that I am ready to be the one that pulls the plug on this. No matter what happens If we work things out or walk away, I have be a better man when I come out on the other side. Either for her or someone else.


So long as you're stuck in this limbo and she's not being receptive to your pleas, you'll be just abetting her affair. You'll have to offer an ultimatum otherwise she'll continue to lose what respect she has for you and the pattern will repeat. 

You're also cementing the changed power dynamics in the relationship, as in, she's continuing to subconsciously justify her actions because she hasn't faced any serious consequences for them. In her head, the fact you're still pursuing her, rather than her being the repentant remorseful one suggests that all the problems in the relationship are down to you.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I wish I had some great advice, but from my experience once you get this monkey off your back, let her go, you feel a great wieght lifted off you. Only then will you see if your wife will follow you and respect your boundries or not.
In my case I just broke and stop chacing, found a reason to have a better life, there really was no rime or reason, I just wanted a change......it just so happened my cheating wife desided to come along and make the same changes in her life style.


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## Jibril (May 23, 2012)

I read the entirety of this story. Truly, a miserable tale, and a fate I wouldn't wish on _any_ married person.

But you're in this situation, regardless. My advice to your question "where to go from here?" is simply - away from your wife.

You are stubbornly adamant in preserving a marriage that does not exist. You are in denial, I suspect. I fear you've deluded yourself into thinking that you can put this broken marriage back together. 

Using the "broken" idea, let me give you an analogy. You cannot mend or fix something unless you have all of the pieces required to put the thing back together. In the case of your marriage, the _biggest_ piece, your wife, is _gone_. In truth, I believe this piece was never _truly_ there to begin with. 

In any case, you've lived your life convinced that your marriage was whole, and that any issues that cropped up could be fixed. Whenever the _glaring_ hole (your wife) compromised the strength of your marriage, you simply did a quick duct-tape fix to keep the charade from falling apart.

But your wife doesn't want to be a part of your marriage. No amount of duct-tape will change the fact that your _wife has checked-out_. You cannot fix this marriage.



pmiller said:


> But, I got married to this woman because I love her, I always have. Nothing has changed that, even with the affairs and other issues. I believe any problem can be worked out and things can be better than they were before. I got married for better or worse... this is the worse. I don't see the solution being to abandon the marriage. I see that as running from the problem. Now, If we can work things out and we decide that we are better off apart, then that is different. It's not running away.


This quote tells me exactly what I suspect - you're lost in your delusion, and you are justifying this delusion to yourself. 

Firstly, your love is unreciprocated. She does not love you anymore. Period. It doesn't matter that you love her, or that you want to work things out. She has made her choice, and you cannot convince her to love you again.

Secondly, separation and divorce is not "running away" or "abandoning." She has checked out of this marriage _long_ ago - she's only with you out of some contrived sense of obligation. And even this has not stopped her from trying to separate. Who are you abandoning, really? Your kids? You're not married to _them_, and there's no reason why you cannot be a huge part of their lives, while at the same time being divorced from your wife. 

The only thing you're be "abandoning" is your illusion of marriage.

Divorce is the first step towards moving on. I can understand why you're apprehensive about taking that step (it's a major change, and people generally don't like change). But you need to take this step for your own health as well as hers. What good does it do you to cling to this sinking ship? Some misplaced sense of honor, or pride? You cannot patch it up - it's _over_. 

You need to stop trying to convince yourself that it _might_ work. It won't. It hasn't.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Wow, I absolutely lost track during the OP of how many guys she was cheating with. FWIW, it would seem that you just may not know the full extent. These are just the guys you know about. So I will make the complete understatement that she has zero boundaries about the opposites sex as far as we can see. She pretty much hooks up continuously. She also seems to fall into the category of if she wants to cheat she will cheat. This is not someone who due to their poor boundaries let someone get closer. That might work once. No these poor boundaries are a life style of chocie for her.

Now her cheating is on her but you have a real problem with enablement. You not only have a problem showing attention but you are way too ambivalent at times where you could show you actually care about her bonding with other men. This is not attractive to a woman. I say this mostly so that you can work on this for your next relationship. 

You may want to reevaluate your boundary of being ok with your SO hanging out with ( dating ) all these other men. Continuosly you have justified them. You were even ok with her car pooling with this other guy that ended up her lover. A few others you just commented they were nice guys so it was ok. You may want to come to a conclusion that nice guy or not your SO dating another man is not a good policy. This failed over and over and over ... We could see where this was going when you stated she was hanging out alone with the guy around the city. I am not sure why you are ok with all of this. Please consider having a boundary that you can address your SO with that comes before she is in a full blown PA. She is also not helpless, to hookupmthis often she is putting out the vibe and looking to hookup. She is not falling into bed with anyone. She is driving that agenda and pulling men onto bed with her.

Her wanting to work was one thing. Her taking a job from 10pm to 5am was absurd. We hear that you were not fond of it. Some people have to make choices like that for a family to financially survive. While one can understand that, it is also tantamount to marital suicide in way too many cases. In your case it was totally her choice and your opinion mattered not. So this comes down to her making decisions again like she is single and not married. I suggest what works better is the Policy Of Joint Agreement. Meaning major life decisions like this are done jointly. Both parthers have to agree. I will not even go down the road of you asserting yourself as the husband because you choose to be the more submissive person in your marriage. That is a bigger issue you should work on.

You had fair warning of her nature before you married. You chose this woman. You went against the odds. Sure she is the serial cheater and she owns that but you need to learn to judge people better than you do or you just flat get what you get. She never really wanted to commit to you and she never really has. It appears all too common these days but it seems that it is ok to have children and buy a home before getting married. Seems very strange to me that a couple cannot comnmit to a marriage yet can bring children into the world and make mjor financial decisions together. Maybe this was another indicator that she really wanted to be single.

The comment about the white knight was interesting. The fact we can see your story and perhaps some come to that conclusion is one view. The fact you know what a white knight is means you indeed have your eyes wide open about such behavior. I suggest then that you evaluate what you have been doing and alter any behaviors that are consistent with being a white knight. Realize that such classifications never completely define a person. People have a complex mixture of traits. You just need for your own health to identify the white knight traits you have and lose them. 

The way to best do this is to focus on traits that are postitive. So this is the you need to work on you speech. You need to do what ever is required to get your own respect back. No one can respect a person who does not repsect themselves and who does not have strong personal boundaries. The fact through all of this you have not found your limits is not a good thing. It means you tolerate an extreme amount of abuse. After you have worked on yourself and have confidence and greatter respect for yourself, you will be ready to define your personal boundaries. You will learn to be more assertive about them. You will be less likely to enable others poor behavior as it relates to you. You will not accept disrepect and abuse. You cannot control your curent wife's bebaviors. She has done nothing but lie, cheat, manipulate and abuse you. That is why it is about you. You must change. 

Also reralize that if we can not have love for ourselves we cannot truly love another.


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## akashNil (May 20, 2012)

DaKarmaTrain! said:


> Buddy, I am sorry, but you appear to suffer from the same mental deficiency I suffered from for years (and I'm talking from the experience of 3 different reconcilliation attempts with the same woman, and we have 2 children):
> 
> You don't know when to quit. It sounds completely unworkable. It will never get better. You need to move on. Sorry...


Agree. Same here. We are in the same boat.

No advice brother, but best wishes from me - hope you will get peace and love that you deserve so much. You have suffered a lot, and you deserve a better life. I believe you will never move on - You have invested so much in her. But you can have alternate sources of love - Like what all good men found in helping others in need.

I know I also should have taken a quick decision long back. I couldn't (or rather, I didn't). I am suffering till now.


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

pmiller said:


> I refuse to be a plan B and I also refuse to move forward with our relationship if she is going to have someone else as a plan B.. it's all or nothing.
> 
> 
> :scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:
> ...



:scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

I havent replied today (obviously ) i have been digesting all the info and comments posted. 

That, and spending the day with my kids.

Decided to put the 180 into full effect.. had already started that a few dsyd ago. She has already started trying to engage me in conversations more and figure out why i have been avoiding her. She's even trying to get me to play games on our phones togerher more, kinda weird now. I have slipped here and there, but still moving forward.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

Good luck. You will have some tough times ahead. Be strong and know that things will get better. Been there--Done that!


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

KanDo said:


> Good luck. You will have some tough times ahead. Be strong and know that things will get better. Been there--Done that!


I appreciate the eords of encouragement.
My outlook is the same as I posted yesterday, no matter what happens I have to come out of the other side of this a better man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

What do you hope to achieve through 180 now? It will be another excuse to go cheat again.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

I highly recommend that you read and implement *Three Minute Therapy: Change Your Thinking, Change Your Life*.


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

More a way to take a step back and self improve than to send a message to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

morituri said:


> I highly recommend that you read and implement *Three Minute Therapy: Change Your Thinking, Change Your Life*.


May look into that one.. thanks for the info
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

The 180 is also to keep myself in check.
it would be too easy to give and everytime she reaches out. Hard to tell when it's honest. she could be just trying to play me or manipulate me some more
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

Also will be consulting a lawyer this week. I'm pretty much ready and pack and leave. But, if I do that at this point, I'm still paying for everything and not even going to live here. Need to figure that one out before I can make any moves.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Make sure not to tell her of your intentions and plans, when the time comes just do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

Planned to keep her completly in the dark for now.. turnabout is fair play, right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Pmiller, just so you know, we're not trying to make you jump on the "divorce the witch" bandwagon. Serving her with the divorce papers will be the make it or break it moment for you. 

If she doesn't come around after knowing that you could potentially walk out of the relationship forever means that attempting reconciliation would be beyond pointless and you'll be stuck in this limbo forever.


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

PM, you was shown how she viewed boundries when she slept with your roomate, yes you was only FB, but even she should have seen how ackward this would make things in the house. And when she told you it wasn't your biz, you accepted. What do you think that really said to her. Now take this " I refuse to be the backup" "But I am not ready to pull the plug". Games within games my man. So you can stop using your inatteniveness " YES YOU HAVE " as an excuse. You may not see it but we do. Thats why thru all her affairs, the setting of the stage as FBs back then allows you to continue now. Games within games.


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

I'm not taking all the advice on here as divorce the witch. More as, wake up and see that she will probably never change.. So quit wasting your time, fix yourself, then most likely move on
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

And I'm not rushing to file for divorce. I'm going to talk to a lawyer, figure out the best way to go, probably file for separation then move out of the house and see what happens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Yet another classic WS cake eater while the BS is basically the babysitter. 










Accept the fact that you CANNOT fix her. Something's broken within her and she has to do that herself. There is no fixing this type of marriage, as she sees absolutely nothing wrong with what she's doing. Of course you have basically enabled her cheating by continually rugsweeping every affair and not showing any consequences. But that's the past. It's time to let her go.


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

D or R, I just want a better life for you, sincerely. You know your limits, and no one can tell you what you are comfortable with. I was just showing you what you may not have seen. I respect what ever you decide, this is your life and only you can say what will make you happy. So plz, you came for advice, saying blount honesty, well some of us will try to see what you have not. The lawyer is a very good idea, also the 180 for you. I hope the lawyer has some advice that will not hurt your kids quality of life, while not poor housing you if you move out.


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

OldWolf57 said:


> D or R, I just want a better life for you, sincerely.


That is pretty much where I am as well.. and thanks


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Pmiller,

Separation is a waste of your time and money.

R or D is the only course.

You can always have your wife served and tell her she has left you no choice. The D is final in 90 days. You have 90 days to show me why we should still be together.

And by the way your wife has never respected you even before marriage, your wife does not love herself and your wife does not deserve you!!!

Stay strong and silent. Go see the attorney. 

HM64


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

I guess I need to look around for advice on what I find out from the attorney. The only time I ever had a lawyer with for a traffic ticket years ago. I know I need to find out what I can and can't do though. Any suggestions?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

dadsdivorce.com


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

Heading there now.. thanks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

Maybe i am blind, but i dont see much on there except why their lawyers want you to hire them or how to be a complete d*ck so even your kids will hate you after the D.

I'll look more, but not quite what i am looking for so far.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Look into their forums, especially "before divorce" and "finance and assets" section.


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

Did a little looking around (read as snooping if you want) and she stopped at the bank today and had a statement printed going back to March 28.. seems like she is getting her own plan in motion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

Thought crossed my mind to take it and have her removed from my account, or just close it and swirch banks.

Actually, that thought is still swimming around.
Not sure of the legal ramifications of doing that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

pmiller said:


> Did a little looking around (read as snooping if you want) and she stopped at the bank today and had a statement printed going back to March 28.. seems like she is getting her own plan in motion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Looks like it. Protect yourself and the kids.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Depends on how much $$ is in it. 


If its 4/5 digits, then its a good idea to remove her name right away, and distribute the half when the court orders you to do so. Otherwise half of your money will be wasted on her attorney against you.


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

On the site changing security info now.. might just do that.
Will keep receipts for everything I give her, because I have to for food and such. I can't be shopping when traveling.


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

after reading a few sites, I probably won't be able to take her name off w/o her signature. Will most likely have to close it or freeze it. Both of which will most likely cause me issues in court if we get to D (which honestly looks inevitable at this point)


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Was the account fully yours before adding her?


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

this behavior is completely out of the norm for her too.. someone is giving her advice.. either lawyer (doubtful), OM (possible) or her best friend (most likely)


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

keko said:


> Was the account fully yours before adding her?


Yes, it was my sole account that I added her to as a signer and got a debit card issued in her name


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

pmiller said:


> Yes, it was my sole account that I added her to as a signer and got a debit card issued in her name


Talk to your bank in person, since it was your account before depending on the banks policies you might not need her signature.

If nothing works, withdraw half of whats in it and try to freeze the account from any use(including her).


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

Anyone have any thoughts on the ramifications of either 
1. closing it
2. Removing her name
3. Freezing
4. A combination of the above
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

If you take the money out and open another, the judge will sort it out. AND NO they will not arrest you for that. So just leave enough to take care of the household things. Posession is 9/10 of the law.


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

you should also think about closing any joint credit cards. She is getting advice and is starting to play hardball. Since you are the major breadwinner, stop DD your pay, and set it up for your other account. And since she wants to be indi., have her now share equal in the household expenses.


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

I think what I may do is close the account or at least freeze it if there are still pending transactions and take the rest out (leave maybe 5 in to keep it open or something)

Open another account for myself (at another bank) and put the money into it. Pay all the bills myself and take half of what's left and put it into a savings account that she will have an ATM card for. That way she can't take more that what's "hers" and can't try to screw me with over draft fees and can't make me pay for her lawyer unless it's awarded to her by the judge.

That way, I have a record of everything and shouldn't get hammered by a judge if I have everything 'transparent'

What do you guys think of that?


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

luckily we don't have any other joint accounts.. I don't like credit cards, so I don't have them.. make life more difficult sometimes, but worth it.

Only breadwinner is more like it.. she did just start her job today tho.. she'll make less than $800 /mo after taxes. Guess I should figure out a way to make her accountable for half of the bills. I have to pay them to keep the house and things running. Maybe the lawyer I still need to find will have some ideas there.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

"empty" the account then freeze it for now. Depending on your settlement decree you will have to give back some but it's better not to be spent on her attorney then go into your own account.

Also start hiding any financial document you have in offsite locations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

I will be moving all tax records I have as well as all paperwork I have on the house and vehicles (she can keep her paperwork for her car) Also, I will be taking the printout she got from the bank on my account.

I started a thread with the beginning of a letter to my wife, please let me know thoughts on it..
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/47912-letter-ws-work-progress.html

also, here is the thread I started about questions for a lawyer, please add to it if you know something I did list. I am sure I will have more, but considering how all over the place my mind is, I know I missed things that should be obvious:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...tions-lawyer-questions-needed.html#post799938


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## Humble Pie (Feb 28, 2012)

pmiller said:


> I have cruised this site off and on in the past, this is my first post. I like a lot of the things on this site, my favorite is the blunt honesty some of you post. There are a few flamers here too, but you can't seem to get away from them no matter where you go.
> 
> I am posting here hoping for some insight, personal experience advice, general advice or whatever else may help. Also, just so I can get this out. I don't have many friends and I have gone to counseling on my own in the past with marital problems. The only thing they wanted to know is what my wife was up to this time. Almost more like water cooler gossip than anything else. Obviously, that wasn't beneficial to me and my situation. I know that I will see some replies that are obviously the wrong approach, but you take it how you get it I guess.
> 
> ...


Sorry I am a bit late, but since I read your inital post, i wanted to just comment on this first.

Why would you not want to just let go of your wife, and give her the opportunity to be happy in life. Obviously that is what she is seeking, repeatedly having affairs, trying to get attention from men due to your lack of. You keep saying you dont want a separation, but you continue not put forth the effort in the marriage, that is being very selfish on your behalf. IMOHO, she has tried to work things out with you, there has been no progress, and you even admit this over and over throughout your thread. She continues to have these affairs cause she isnt getting the love she needs from you. Its very sad she is resorting to this. Not that what she is doing is right, but you are very forceful with not allowing her to seperate as you keep claiming, "lets work this out" but never do. When is enough gonna be enough with you?


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## Humble Pie (Feb 28, 2012)

pmiller said:


> Unfortunately, that seems to be the motto of my marriage


i am not trying to be the damper here, but you openly confessed that you didnt do enough in your marriage attention wise to provide confort or communication in your marriage.


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## Humble Pie (Feb 28, 2012)

morituri said:


> pmiller,
> 
> There are millions of spouses, men and women, who have not have had their "emotional needs" satisfied by their spouses in a very long time and yet they never cheat on them. Why? Because they have refused to cross marital boundaries which would have left them vulnerable to having an affair. Now in your case, you could have come to being the perfect husband and yet your wife would still have cheated on you because she is a woman who doesn't care about violating marital boundaries. Blaming yourself for her serial cheating is ludicrous.


great point!

Look at how you met this woman, she was cheating on her husband with you, so the start of the relationship already proved to be unstable, and adulteracious


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

I know that I did things wrong in our marriage. I also know that I told her I would work on them. But, when your spouse has a problem and doesn't actually tell you what it is and you only get "You don't listen, you don't communicate" that is not helpful. When I ask her to be a little more specific, she refuses. It is very apparent that I need to notice how things are going better in the future, but when your spouse puts on a smile and acts like nothing is wrong, it is easy to get blind sided when they throw in the towel the next day.

Also on your statement "very forceful with not allowing her to separate".. it' not like I have her chained up at home. She is a free person who could have gone and filed and left. She didn't. She decided that maybe we could work it out. The only problem with that is that she never fully made the attempt to do it. But, at the same time, it is very apparent that I didn't either. Like I said, I KNOW I have faults and the status of my marriage is also partly my fault. 

She never wanted to talk about the problems that caused her affair.. the only words she ever said about it were telling me I was throwing it in her face. I tried different approaches to talk about it.. each one met with the same response. She has never been remorseful for her actions and has never attempted to accept responsibility and work through the issues at hand. She swept it under the rug and I allowed it.. So, I accept fault for that. 

Hind sight is 20/20.. there are many things I did wrong and many things that I allowed to happen. I should have done MANY things different. 

Should she not be held responsible for her actions and choices? Maybe I am being a little too sensitive here, but your comments sound like hers. I know I have issues and they need to be worked on, but, does that mean I am the only one with issues or the only one to blame?


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

I agree with you. the time for blaming has come and gone. the question now is do we work on this NOW, or go our own way. PM do not get sidetracked by the late comers. They will have you rehashing the old stuff asked and answered.


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

Humble Pie said:


> great point!
> 
> Look at how you met this woman, she was cheating on her husband with you, so the start of the relationship already proved to be unstable, and adulteracious


ha.. you lose them how you found em huh?


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

I would beat the **** out of that little prick and divorce her. Kick her out. Go feral.


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## pmiller (Jun 2, 2012)

Yea, that's some sound advice.. assault charges, super ugly divorce, maybe not get to see my kids much, you know, from jail and all.. 

But, I see the point you're making.. more along the lines of "Nut up or Shut up"


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

pmiller said:


> ha.. you lose them how you found em huh?


It goes "If they cheat with you, they'll cheat on you."


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