# Control, Surrender,….Not sure how to phrase question..



## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

For the past few days I have been reading some of the threads on this site, looking for answers and inspiration to some of the issues my husband and I are going through. I’ve gotten some great ideas and now I am researching one of them before I bring the idea to my husband. For some reason when I bring him suggestions he always has a million questions that seem to be a way of avoiding trying the idea out. That goes from figuring out how to create more space in an area that appear to have none to how to arrange landscaping. I like to come up with ideas, and I like to discuss them with him because I feel it is something that will affect both of us and he should have a say in the matter. The longer we are together I see that he will just go along as is, never trying to change or come up with ideas to change. I am the one who seems to stand up and say…enough…..excuse me I think something needs to be done here. It’s like he is blind to it. So yesterday as I was reading along the site I saw conversations on books and issues like the “Surrendered Wife”, or issues on controlling wives. Someone mentioned in response to me that maybe something was wrong with me that he does not feel comfortable approaching me. I have tried periods of not saying anything to him on an issue to see if he notices it enough to make a change or even comments about it. He won’t, and I don’t mean me only waiting a day or two, I mean a year. Like in the case of putting up the crown molding around the house, and that is with my help, not me just watching him do it alone. I am willing to work and do anything with him to get it done, so he is not alone. I try to explain to him that the value of a home goes up not only depending on the market but the improvements the owners invest into it. Kind of like a marriage right? 
I know me, I will continue to search and research until we either improve in how we relate to each other or not. Of course I am aiming for the improve part. I guess my question is why I am the only one trying to find out ways to improve how we relate to each other? How come he cannot see that we don’t relate and have a level of intimacy like some of the couples around us? How can this be normal for him? Yes he was awkward in some of his approaches and touches in the beginning of our relationship but we have been together now, married for six years. I should not be a stranger to him that he is fearful of me in anyway. Yes I am strong minded and spirited, but never cruel or mean or disrespectful to my husband. He says he wants us to be happy together and he loves me, (Before therapy I offered him and opportunity to leave because I thought he was not happy with me), and does not want to leave. Yet he initiates nothing, or comes up with any ideas. The cruise we went on for our anniversary, I arranged it, down to the “Happy Anniversary Banner”. If I am controlling, I would gladly give it up because it is tiring ….coming up with, researching….. Planning out, then initiating plans ALL of the time. Some might say well stop, let him come up with something, but that’s the thing, He won’t. The crown molding story was an allegory example of our marriage. He will go into his office, work until 2 or 3 in the morning, come to bed, get up and do it all over again. Never noticing that I am sitting right in front of him waiting, ..for him. I know I’ve talked about a lot, and maybe I just needed to vent, because as I said I was researching and getting overwhelmed with the information in order to understand it before I bring the idea to him. 
I guess I want to hear from someone who has gone through this part of the multifaceted issues in marriage and come out of the other side. 
:scratchhead:


----------



## Devotee (Sep 22, 2013)

Do you think he would be willing to co to MC with you? You mentioned therapy?

Your H sounds a whole lot like a man I dated for almost 4 years. I was the one doing all the work- doing all the planning, the arranging, etc. I felt like I was beating my head against the wall always trying to reach him. He was always just happy with the status quo, with whatever I wanted. It was exhausting. 

I have come to realize, with perspective, that he had no confidence and what I suppose was attractive about me was the fact that I was able to make the decisions and make the plans, etc- ones that he was not mentally willing to stretch and make. It worked out perfectly for him. That is until I came to the place where you are now.


----------



## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

Devotee said:


> Do you think he would be willing to co to MC with you? You mentioned therapy?
> 
> Your H sounds a whole lot like a man I dated for almost 4 years. I was the one doing all the work- doing all the planning, the arranging, etc. I felt like I was beating my head against the wall always trying to reach him. He was always just happy with the status quo, with whatever I wanted. It was exhausting.
> 
> I have come to realize, with perspective, that he had no confidence and what I suppose was attractive about me was the fact that I was able to make the decisions and make the plans, etc- ones that he was not mentally willing to stretch and make. It worked out perfectly for him. That is until I came to the place where you are now.


I should have phrased it MC, and yes we just ended, because I think we were at the point where he acknowledged (to the counselor) that I was right and we needed to do things to improve, which is the bottom line of her job....right ? To get people to the point where they see they need to make some changes. I thought having gone through this he would work on being the one to at least try to initiate. But no, he walks around with the oblivious look on his face. He seems content with having gone, and now where done with it, lets move on. The problem is we haven't we are doing the same thing.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Your H sounds like mine and the surrendered wife thread was also mine. Yikes girl! I am contemplating divorce. So there's the other side, twice now Devotee's response.

Home improvement projects..my H has said that when I say, this room needs to be painted, I am insulting him. We have lived in this house for almost 20 years, rooms need to be painted every few years. My home is decorated in what I call, "dead relative." Excluding baby furniture we have made MAYBE 10 purchases in 29 years!

I have learned to turn a blind eye to everything, year in and year out. If I want a room painted, I wait for him to go out of town and do it myself. Of course I'm not as good at it as I'd like to be but at least it gets done.

You hit the nail on the head, he was attracted to your energy and enthusiasm and you had so much of it you didn't notice he was not putting forth the effort.

I wish I had an answer for you. I don't. I can tell you about all the things I tried, but none of them have been very successful. However, in my case, there is so much water under the bridge that I simply don't have the energy to keep trying or to demand he get therapy. I refuse to do anything more for this marriage.

It is exhausting! And years from now when you don't have the energy to do it all, he still won't step up.

My husband has never gotten therapy and was a defensive passive participant in MC.

Maybe you can get your H to go to therapy, not MC. I don't understand how people become such passive recipients and then take offense when asked to step up, I really don't get it. Maybe your marriage is young enough to be saved in time?

Good luck, there are other wives like us...slowly bleeding our life force out so our husbands don't have to do anything "uncomfortable."


----------



## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Your H sounds like mine and the surrendered wife thread was also mine. Yikes girl! I am contemplating divorce. So there's the other side, twice now Devotee's response.
> 
> Home improvement projects..my H has said that when I say, this room needs to be painted, I am insulting him. We have lived in this house for almost 20 years, rooms need to be painted every few years. My home is decorated in what I call, "dead relative." Excluding baby furniture we have made MAYBE 10 purchases in 29 years!
> 
> ...



First I am sorry you are contemplating divorce, second thank you for the laugh ...the "dead relative." statement is hilarious. Is so funny until it's not funny. Our home is new built but you're right mine gets that defensive passive thing going about him too when I talk about the things I want to do to it. I can identify with you, but I am not ready to give up yet I guess. 
A part of me wants to find out I guess if it's me and I am just not the kind that is destined or supposed to have that kind of intimacy with a man.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Leelan said:


> First I am sorry you are contemplating divorce, second thank you for the laugh ...the "dead relative." statement is hilarious. Is so funny until it's not funny. Our home is new built but you're right mine gets that defensive passive thing going about him too when I talk about the things I want to do to it. I can identify with you, but I am not ready to give up yet I guess.
> A *part of me wants to find out I guess if it's me and I am just not the kind that is destined or supposed to have that kind of intimacy with a man.*


That's where I have been for years. I can only liken it to a kind of Gaslightint, maybe, that term they use when an unfaithful spouse makes the other feel like their crazy for suspecting. Only the dude having the affair knows what he's doing when he has lights his suspicious wife. Our husbands don't, I think, understand that their inability or unwillingness to do something different, their steadfast refusal to see the merit of it, or the need for it, how that makes us feel. Over time it can totally erode your faith in yourself. And those of us who began with self doubt as a way of life, and as such placed a lot of faith in our partner, it can take decades to come to the point where you can put your foot down on the important things.

My husband has improved in these last few years, but not enough and he always slips back into his normal mode.

I get that your interested in saving the marriage. That's what you should do.

Have you been to the marriage builders website yet? Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice print out emotional needs questionnaires for each of you. Get the books, His Need Her Needs and Love Busters.

You H needs to understand that some things are important to you and you need to understand how to best approach him to get your needs met. Maybe starting early enough you can turn this around.

My husband makes a good living, but you wouldn't know it by looking at our home. The kitchen, the pool and the gardens are mine and I fought hard for them. Now I don't care about them ..except the kitchen. Wish I could take that with me cause it is a dream!


----------



## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

I have read so much from some of these threads that I really do not feel like my husband and I are at the end. I think we both are just naïve as hell and need some damn lessons. I don't know maybe it's partly my never say die attitude also. But my goodness, If I could get him on board with some of the stuff I read, damn we could have some amazing fun. 
I know I'm the reader and researcher out of the pair but I feel inspired today, and that's all any of us have. So for today, I will sneak a couple more of these threads in at work and learn about what happy couples do. I can not stand doom and gloom and I feel that is all I've been talking about lately.:iagree: with myself.


----------



## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

Well he is simply scared of you. He says youre right anything to keep the peace. 
A few questions. Can you really afford all your grand schemes. I mean does he think so. That is the obvious reason. 
I suppose you dont have real arguments meaning fights he is too scared of you. You will never be a surrendered wife.
He seems to work hard and long enough, is it right to also ask him to 'build' your house.
By the way do you also work.
I suppose even at the MC he was scared to open his mouth and just agreed with whatever you said.
I dont suppose its that he doesnt notice. Its more like he doesnt know what he should mention and what he shouldnt.

I dont think your counsellor did a good job. If he/she couldnt bring your husband out of his 'shell' he/she certainly didnt. 
He must have been just as scared of the counsellor as he is of you.

If you want to stay together and have a good life and its certainly possible you will have to change your attitude to him.


----------



## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

accept1 said:


> Well he is simply scared of you. He says youre right anything to keep the peace.
> A few questions. Can you really afford all your grand schemes. I mean does he think so. That is the obvious reason.
> I suppose you dont have real arguments meaning fights he is too scared of you. You will never be a surrendered wife.
> He seems to work hard and long enough, is it right to also ask him to 'build' your house.
> ...


Wow, I sound like a tyrant through your eyes.:scratchhead:
Let's see if I can address each of your points. 
My husband may have some issues, but being scared of me isn't one of them:lol:. 
My grand schemes, are that I painted the whole house, and went and brought home the crown molding in my little jeep and he just needed to put it up, ......in a half bathroom. 
He does very hard work,.....from home, and makes 3x what I bring home, and I am not talking McDonalds sweetie. 
I commute everyday two hours there and two hours back. 
Finally, the marriage counselor wouldn't have been a good one if she condoned a man just sitting there and taking that kind of treatment, would she, and most importantly, I would not be a good wife if I allowed someone, even me, to talk to my husband like he is the weakling you described, and I am sure I did not paint that kind of picture of him. Again, I am sorry your marriage is not going the way you would like, I am sure it sucks. Mine is not great right now, but I have hope until, I need to get to a new point and need to take a different approach. 

Besides, you're really going to need a better attitude to attract a better person. :iagree:


----------



## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Leelan said:


> For the past few days I have been reading some of the threads on this site, looking for answers and inspiration to some of the issues my husband and I are going through. I’ve gotten some great ideas and now I am researching one of them before I bring the idea to my husband. For some reason when I bring him suggestions he always has a million questions that seem to be a way of avoiding trying the idea out. That goes from figuring out how to create more space in an area that appear to have none to how to arrange landscaping. I like to come up with ideas, and I like to discuss them with him because I feel it is something that will affect both of us and he should have a say in the matter. The longer we are together I see that he will just go along as is, never trying to change or come up with ideas to change. I am the one who seems to stand up and say…enough…..excuse me I think something needs to be done here. It’s like he is blind to it. So yesterday as I was reading along the site I saw conversations on books and issues like the “Surrendered Wife”, or issues on controlling wives. Someone mentioned in response to me that maybe something was wrong with me that he does not feel comfortable approaching me. I have tried periods of not saying anything to him on an issue to see if he notices it enough to make a change or even comments about it. He won’t, and I don’t mean me only waiting a day or two, I mean a year. Like in the case of putting up the crown molding around the house, and that is with my help, not me just watching him do it alone. I am willing to work and do anything with him to get it done, so he is not alone. I try to explain to him that the value of a home goes up not only depending on the market but the improvements the owners invest into it. Kind of like a marriage right?
> I know me, I will continue to search and research until we either improve in how we relate to each other or not. Of course I am aiming for the improve part. I guess my question is why I am the only one trying to find out ways to improve how we relate to each other? How come he cannot see that we don’t relate and have a level of intimacy like some of the couples around us? How can this be normal for him? Yes he was awkward in some of his approaches and touches in the beginning of our relationship but we have been together now, married for six years. I should not be a stranger to him that he is fearful of me in anyway. Yes I am strong minded and spirited, but never cruel or mean or disrespectful to my husband. He says he wants us to be happy together and he loves me, (Before therapy I offered him and opportunity to leave because I thought he was not happy with me), and does not want to leave. Yet he initiates nothing, or comes up with any ideas. The cruise we went on for our anniversary, I arranged it, down to the “Happy Anniversary Banner”. If I am controlling, I would gladly give it up because it is tiring ….coming up with, researching….. Planning out, then initiating plans ALL of the time. Some might say well stop, let him come up with something, but that’s the thing, He won’t. The crown molding story was an allegory example of our marriage. He will go into his office, work until 2 or 3 in the morning, come to bed, get up and do it all over again. Never noticing that I am sitting right in front of him waiting, ..for him. I know I’ve talked about a lot, and maybe I just needed to vent, because as I said I was researching and getting overwhelmed with the information in order to understand it before I bring the idea to him.
> I guess I want to hear from someone who has gone through this part of the multifaceted issues in marriage and come out of the other side.
> :scratchhead:



You have a high sex drive HD and are adventurous, talking about sex. You are the aggressive type.

Your hubby is the low sex drive LD, vanilla and doesn't talk about sex much. He is the passive type.

This is a sexual mismatch. I know because I too am in a similar situation and so are many here on TAM.

You can't fix him or her. They have to want to change and start taking care of their spouses sexual needs. You can't make them do that. I know this seems silly and why is sex so difficult for some? For me, if I'm in the mood, I want to just take my wife, whenever, where ever, it doesn't matter. For her, very difficult to want sex. Short of giving our spouses a supplement to raise their sex drives, there isn't much you can do.

You can go to counseling, read an infinite amount of books, the 'net, you name it, but in the end, the LD vanilla spouse is the one not doing much and the HD adventurous spouse is doing all the work, changing and still gets little to no sex increase.

It's almost like you're wasting your time with a LD vanilla spouse........


----------



## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

CuddleBug said:


> You have a high sex drive HD and are adventurous, talking about sex. You are the aggressive type.
> 
> Your hubby is the low sex drive LD, vanilla and doesn't talk about sex much. He is the passive type.
> 
> ...



It sounds so clinical when you put it like that, ...and please don't laugh, but I don't know what vanilla is ..yet.
Do you not agree that spouses must at least try, he is not
trying to separate from me, he doesn't treat me like he hates me, and he is not cheating on me. 
He is a sweet man and he would go humming along
oblivious if I didn't say anything. 

I just need,.... I guess.


----------



## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

accept1 said:


> I wasnt sure if I should answer but I decided I will. Considering you have answered every poster.


Thank you for your helpful insight..


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Here's what my husband recently said to me that totally blew me away, regarding home improvement projects.

I feel like I failed when you want to fix something in the house, like it's never good enough.

Now I ignored the actual words and tried to get more from the hidden meaning. Obviously if I am not happy with what he does bring to the relationship than that means he has failed. Okay so wow, how does one work around that!!!!

I think you should read the book surrendered wife. If nothing else, it describes the way some men "hear" our words and helps us to choose better words and let go of a lot of things and communicate in a way that the delicate male ego can handle.

Edited to add: any realtor would run screaming from out house because I stopped talking about home improvement projects for years. But this year we had to have a HUGE party and I'll be damned if those people were going to see how we really loved! I made a list and he made a list. Then we ranked our own then each other's. Then we got about a quarter of the final list done. But hey, I got the family room painted finally!


----------



## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Here's what my husband recently said to me that totally blew me away, regarding home improvement projects.
> 
> I feel like I failed when you want to fix something in the house, like it's never good enough.
> 
> ...


First Anon I really would like to thank you for sharing truth. You have said a couple of things to me in this short time that made me sit back, because you get it. It is always good when someone identifies with what your going through and understands because they have lived it. It is also very scary because you hope that your situation will be like the lottery ""a dollar and a dream" you will be the one out of millions to win the happily everafter. 
I read ...well I'm still reading one of your threads " Does Sex feel Like Love" (please for give me if I have misquoted the title), and I have been struck stupid, and silent, literally. One point ,,,and that thread has many.....is the puppet thing you brought up. It left me in tears because that is what I told our therapists, about how I feel after arranging everthing. Except I phrased it " I feel like a master manipulator" 
I know this is my journey, and If I come out of the other side as you have then so be it. But I know that I do have to go through it to get to the wisdom you have seem to have gotten from it. Man, I am just not that grown yet !
I see and admit that I have some work to do on me, regardless of my husband's lack of response, and lack of emotions. I just wanted to say thank you, and stay strong.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Oh my goodness! Thank you very much Leelan!

We learn as we go then reach back and pull someone else out.


----------



## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Oh my goodness! Thank you very much Leelan!
> 
> We learn as we go then reach back and pull someone else out.


Well, Thanks.
I just downloaded Surrendered Wife on audiobook. 
I have to tell you, that I have a headache, and I am not 
10 min into the chapter. My headache is not from getting any great revelation however. It's because I kind of feel....THAT IS HOW I AM ACTING.,,...and it isn't getting me anywhere. It's got me so tight my ears are red, I am going to listen to it on the commute home and see if I can stop seething long enough to articulate why it has me so feakin angry. 
I think it has to do with the fact that I am trying to act like that for my husband, and be considerate, and not hurt his feelings or his ego. When I have something to say and I am angry, I walk away until I calm down, and speak in a adult to adult tone. If he gets lost I don't say anything, or I'll say no worries sweetie you'll get us there, or you'll find it. Supportive always supportive. My guts are twisting inside like a vise because I was to hit him in his head and tell him to man-the f-up, and grow a pair. 
He ran into the bathroom after a gentle conversation about sex, crying, and slam the door girl. I stood in the middle of our bedroom blinking like a deer. I am the one who should be crying.....no. 
I feel like the man sometimes I swear to GOD, and I am not a man. I am a woman, yes I am strong, but I am still a woman. 
Yet he can be the most unresponsive person, no opinion, no comment, no emotion and I feel crazy. Like I cannot be talking to the same sensitive guy. Oh and another critic on this audio book my husband told me he resented taking care of the finances in terms of writing the bills out. We both contribute to all expenses, together. I suck at paying bills on time, he is OCD about it and pays before time. I thought the one who is more conscience about it should do it. I leave early come home late, and sometimes I forget, he never seems to. 
Out of the two of us I cook better than he does.
I come home late, and I don't get upset that he works from
home and can cook anything bad or good. I just come In and cook, because even though I left our home at 5:00 AM and it's 7:30 PM when I get home.....I COOK BETTER. Yet he has a resentment because Even though he is better at paying the bills on time.......He hates,.....no resents....writing out the freakin checks. So much for giving him the financial reins. 
:rules:Sorry....I guess I needed to vent that after listening to 10 minutes of that book.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I am laughing so hard right now....

Oh girl, welcome to the club!

Yup, man the f up and stop being so friggin defensive! Oh yeah that'll go over well.

Your marriage is still young enough to learn skills that keep you both working together, so you each get your needs met. 

But you have been fighting and arguing and you both are busy and you both want stuff. 

Communication is key, what a trite phrase. What it doesn't illuminate is that what we say is heard differently from what we intend, and sometimes what we intend to say illuminates that which we did not say.

I say, the living room chairs are thread bare and filthy, we need to reupholster or replace them. I'm thinking about how bad they look and I have an image of how good they could look. I have images of us shopping together and finding chairs. I have an image of what they may look with what we already have. Then I say, the sofa is not in great shape either and this rug needs to be cleaned.....

What he hears.... I don't make enough money. I need to make more. She doesn't appreciate how hard I work. She thinks I can just pull money outta my a$$ and her life would be perfect. Oh now she wants a whole new room full of furniture!
What he says, that's nice dear...then walks away fuming.

And that's how my house has come to look like it does. I have never figured out how to get him to agree to simple things without him getting angry, defensive and resentful.

So I stopped asking and don't look at my environment very closely.

It hasn't worked.

For either of us.

Keep reading the book and practice surrendering. Your goal is to get him to step up, so you have to make it safe for him.

And tell him to do his checking on line so there are no checks to write.


----------



## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

*The Surrendered Wife*
Respect the man you Married by Listening to him. 
It means you respect his choices big and small even if you don’t agree with them. 
“ When you respect your husband you treat him like an intelligent adult, rather than an irresponsible child. You use a tone becoming of a calm woman not a frantic shrew. Respect means when he takes the wrong freeway exit, you don’t correct him by telling him where to turn. It means if he is going in the wrong direction you will go past the state line and still not correct what he’s doing. In fact no matter what your husband does you will not try to teach improve or correct him. That is the essence of a surrendered wife. “

This is where the first dip in my oxygen level began to happen, and my temper flared. I listened to this book on audio and found out at the end that it was abridged; it was only about an hour and a half. Thank goodness for abridged because I was hyperventilating by the time the book finished. So now I ask myself…. Why ? 

Because I feel this is about 75% of approach I have been taking with him, I’ll fess up to the 25% that I have not done as I go along. As I listened to this reading images and events kept crashing into my thoughts, to the point that I have to rewind a couple of time to hear what she said and not get distracted by what I was remembering. I decided to just jot down some of my recollections and thoughts as I work through this material. Maybe it will help the voices to simmer down because It kind of feels like my emotions are kids in a classroom all raising their hands at the same time screaming, ooooh,..pick me….teacher….pick me. 

*Give your husband the financial reins *screams the loudest right now, because that is what I’ve done. I let him handle all of the bills in the house. We have combined our funds to go into a house account. I agree with Doyle about the freedom from stress this gives.
In past relationships I did not do this, I took care of all of the bills, but I found that when I needed more money because things do not always go the way you plan. I would get into arguments as if I was some gold-digger only after their money. My first two husbands would say something along the lines of “what happened to your money?” I would show them how either this bill or that bill was higher then the last, or that I had to pay for some school expense for my son, or food. I was always juggling one bill over another to make ends meet. I found that I would be the one spending all of what I had, and only asking for help when I had no money left. It hurt to get that kind of response, after spending all of your money to make ends meet, then being treated like some viper because you asked for help. I remember thinking that if they loved me wouldn’t they want to take care of me in this regard. It’s not like I am or have ever been the type to spend on fancy shoes, or clothes. I am not a designer label type of girl, or should I be ? is it because I am not the quppie, Pamela Anderson, or Halle Berry, or video doll type on the end of a guy’s arm that I don’t rate as the kind you take care of. It took a little while to work up to the fact that they were just lazy self-serving guys who were being irresponsible and they did not want to contribute any of their resources to their own cost of living expenses. They wanted to do what they wanted with their money and resented me asking them for any of it. Lesson learned.

When I started dating my husband this was one of the first steps I did not fall into. I was done with the headache of paying for everything and was not going to even begin this relationship like those others. 

Moving fast forward, my now husband takes care of the expenses, and I check with him on how we are doing with our finances. Do I need to increase contributions in any area, and that is as far as I’m going, and I am not taking back the reins of monitoring bills. I don’t spend any money from our house account on my personal expenses; I have my own funds to do that with. We worked out our expenses so that the contributions we both make are enough to cover expenses for the house and all of the bills, so when I buy something with my funds I am not tapping into those expenses. So what’s the problem? He told the therapists he resents being the one to take care of the bills. We have already established that there is enough money, so it’s not like he is going through what I did in making ends meet. AND, as it was pointed out Anon all bills are paid on-line, a couple are sent in by check, but that is one or two bills. He says wants to do that old school so If that is what he wants to do, I don’t second guess him on it, I say have at it….. I say, no problem. As I said he makes 3X what I do so if something comes up, he can handle it, but I am always checking in with him to make sure that if I need to give up a penny more, I am on it !

When he said during counseling that he did not want to be the only one taking care of the bills it hurt me. Because,….man … we barely,….no scratch that we have had sex 2 X this year and it is October so that is like having no sex. He acts like he has not emotions or feelings sometimes. I have lost 30 pounds and he only comments now about it because the therapist made a big deal out of it, and pointed out and questioned him on…..how could he have not noticed this. I have not said a word about any of the changes I have tried to make for him. Just like this book says I just do it. He says he loves me, cries even, and that this oblivious, emotionless state is just how he is, so to me the only area he shows me he cares is by taking care of the bills……and…he hates it. 
I do not want to cheat on him or have an affair, because is not the answer to this. I have girlfriends who have offered this advise when I try, to talk about this stuff. When I go to sleep at night I want a clean and clear conscious. I know me…… I know if I take over this task of bill paying just to make him feel better, it will be over, because I already feel like he’s not there, and I am doing everything I can to work through this with him…… If I take this stuff over I will have no need for him. I don’t want to take care of a man like he is a child period! I do not want to screw my son, or sit here feeling like I'm trying to find ways to screw my son. Because that is what it will feel like if I am constantly left feeling like I am trying to zoom ....zoom the magic spoon airplane in order to trick him into eating his vegetables.....which is me. 

So I guess I am saying for his sake, I am not letting him drop this ball. 
Okay, I got that out. Maybe now I can hear the rest of the book.


----------



## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

accept1 said:


> I have replied to you before more than once. You sound like you speak from the heart trying to do everything right but for some reason it just isnt working.
> 
> I did mention also that you are not the surrendered wife type. You cant be something youre not. You have to be what you are.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that compliment about my speaking from my heart, because that is where I am speaking from. My heart however is the type that demands I do all I can before I give up and call it quits. First what I have never done before is talk about what is going on in my life on a website like this. In this short time I have found it to be a big relief, to be able to say the truth about what I am going through without holding any punches, or worrying if it got back to my husband and mortifying the hell out of him. I am not trying to shame him or hurt him into compliance, just learn how to love him the best I can, if I can. It has been a way for me to scream into the universe, and sometimes the universe answers me back and sometimes it doesn’t. 

Yes you did mention that I was not the surrendered wife type, but the truth is I had never heard of that book , or approach until I came to this website. I was just trying to be a decent respectful person and loving wife to my husband, looking for ways not to just give up. So to hear this approach actually exists peaks my interest. You are right again that I cannot be something I am not, but I must explore what something is before I can honestly say that’s not me or I tried that. 

I don’t know if you realize this, but in your previous advice your writing tone was very harsh and abrasive. You made me feel attacked, and although we are strangers and this place is anonymous it is no excuse for that. That is what I did not take very well to, or will tolerate. :nono: I appreciate your tone in this response it is much nicer, and I thank you for that. :smthumbup:

As far as getting responses from the regulars, I honestly am enjoying being able to vent, and speak out. If someone has something to say or advice to offer to me they will,….just like you did.:ezpi_wink1: Truthfully, I don’t know if I want to share this website with my husband. I enjoy being able to read the threads, posts, and of course write my rantings. I found a place where I can just say the damn thing! If he lucks up on it, than good for him, it will mean that he too is trying to find a better way to love me, and putting some work into finding ideas to do it. Maybe he will luck up on a post by a woman named Leelan, and think God what can I do to make sure I never leave my wife wanting, and alone like that woman. Ahhh, that’s the stuff romance novels are made from, ….. one can always dream.
:allhail:


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Leelan, I've read your posts in this thread and I sincerely wish I had something positive to suggest. Personally, I'm in a bad place right now is whatever comes into my mind is not positive.

Keep venting here. Keep thinking it through. Keep trying, is all I can suggest. I know you have another thread going about his sporadic ED and how he has turned away from all sex rather than risk "failing" and when you think about it, that's what it comes down to. They are afraid to fail so they don't try. Maybe you have the energy and positivity to work with that and come up with something.

I think your MC sucked. Does your husband ever read and if so would he read self help books? You might want to look into that arena... Also I think your man needs Therapy, alone. Maybe you can find a therapist who also specializes in sex therapy, but don't tell him that. Just suggest this person for IC, recommended by your doctor.

Maybe you two could do a couples weekend marriage encounter type thing? But he's prob too closed off to even think of doing that, let alone agree.

Your MC failed because he didn't buy into it. He agreed to everything so he wouldn't be the bad guy and your MC should have seen that and ended it. People like our husbands will agree to anything to end what they consider to be intimidating demands. I don't know how to work around that and it's too late for my marriage anyway. But it's not too late for yours.

Sure, they're always things you could do better. But in the end, it is HIM who has to step up at some point.


----------



## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Leelan, I've read your posts in this thread and I sincerely wish I had something positive to suggest. Personally, I'm in a bad place right now is whatever comes into my mind is not positive.
> 
> Keep venting here. Keep thinking it through. Keep trying, is all I can suggest. I know you have another thread going about his sporadic ED and how he has turned away from all sex rather than risk "failing" and when you think about it, that's what it comes down to. They are afraid to fail so they don't try. Maybe you have the energy and positivity to work with that and come up with something.
> 
> ...


:iagree:
Again, Thank you.
I am sorry you're in a bad space right now.
As for me, I think this week I am going to practice the taking care of myself part of the book. Get my toenails painted, treat myself to an outfit, and make dinner plans with some girlfriends. I find that all this focus on him, him, him is making me forget about me. This lack of affection from your mate tends to suck the femininity right out of you. While I am clean, decent, lately I feel like I've been dressing like I'm in mourning....all black. 
You take care of yourself too.
Stay strong.


----------



## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

accept1 said:


> Thanks for your reply.
> 
> 
> I have written many other posts all abrasive and harsh. Marriage is a harsh subject. They say if you cant take the heat......
> ...


----------



## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

Well I have started the week off trying to be a better me to myself but it did not start how I thought. 

I just let my husband have it with both barrels. I guess I basically told him to **** or get of the pot. Happy Monday. 

It felt great, and I think the glow on my face right now looks better than any foundation or blush. I may crash later, but right now I feel like I took back a little of my own control with this situation.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Leelan said:


> Well I have started the week off trying to be a better me to myself but it did not start how I thought.
> 
> I just let my husband have it with both barrels. I guess I basically told him to **** or get of the pot. Happy Monday.
> 
> It felt great, and I think the glow on my face right now looks better than any foundation or blush. I may crash later, but right now I feel like I took back a little of my own control with this situation.


What do you mean? You gave him an ultimatum?


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

For starters… your post above is a huge wall of text. Please edit it to put some empty space between paragraphs so it’s easier to read.



Leelan said:


> I have tried periods of not saying anything to him on an issue to see if he notices it enough to make a change or even comments about it. He won’t, and I don’t mean me only waiting a day or two, I mean a year. Like in the case of putting up the crown molding around the house, and that is with my help, not me just watching him do it alone. I am willing to work and do anything with him to get it done, so he is not alone. I try to explain to him that the value of a home goes up not only depending on the market but the improvements the owners invest into it. Kind of like a marriage right?


This sounds like you wanted crown molding and he did not care enough about it to want to put out the effort. There is nothing wrong with him not wanting the crown molding. If you wanted, it and he did not, then you should have found your own way to put it up. 

Yes certain modification improve the value of a home. It’s not clear to me that crown molding will necessarily increase the value of your home. Most modifications to a home are personal preferences and do nothing to increase the value.

Plus, I doubt that the crown molding increased the value of your home enough to warrant the problems it has caused in your marriage.


Leelan said:


> I know me, I will continue to search and research until we either improve in how we relate to each other or not. Of course I am aiming for the improve part. I guess my question is why I am the only one trying to find out ways to improve how we relate to each other? How come he cannot see that we don’t relate and have a level of intimacy like some of the couples around us? How can this be normal for him? Yes he was awkward in some of his approaches and touches in the beginning of our relationship but we have been together now, married for six years. I should not be a stranger to him that he is fearful of me in anyway. Yes I am strong minded and spirited, but never cruel or mean or disrespectful to my husband. He says he wants us to be happy together and he loves me, (Before therapy I offered him and opportunity to leave because I thought he was not happy with me), and does not want to leave. Yet he initiates nothing, or comes up with any ideas.
> 
> The cruise we went on for our anniversary, I arranged it, down to the “Happy Anniversary Banner”. If I am controlling, I would gladly give it up because it is tiring ….coming up with, researching….. Planning out, then initiating plans ALL of the time. Some might say well stop, let him come up with something, but that’s the thing, He won’t.


If you are like this to him, this focused on changing him, it must be annoying to him. Instead of trying to change him, work on yourself. You are not his mommy.
All the way to the banner? How much of your energy did that take? Who was it for? You? I’ll bet that it did nothing for him. I’m not trying to be mean here. I’m trying to point out that you are very likely hypre-overdoing here. 


Leelan said:


> The crown molding story was an allegory example of our marriage. He will go into his office, work until 2 or 3 in the morning, come to bed, get up and do it all over again. Never noticing that I am sitting right in front of him waiting, ..for him. I know I’ve talked about a lot, and maybe I just needed to vent, because as I said I was researching and getting overwhelmed with the information in order to understand it before I bring the idea to him.
> I guess I want to hear from someone who has gone through this part of the multifaceted issues in marriage and come out of the other side.
> :scratchhead:


If the crown molding story is an allegory example of your marriage, then you need to learn to pick your battles a lot better. You need to learn what are reasonable things to expect. You need to stop coming up with things that you want, he does not want, then you badger him into what you want. You then put him down for his lack of enthusiasm for what you want.

Perhaps this is why he’s becoming a workaholic.

Your husband is not one more project.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Leelan said:


> I should have phrased it MC, and yes we just ended, because I think we were at the point where he acknowledged (to the counselor) that I was right and we needed to do things to improve, *which is the bottom line of her job....right ? To get people to the point where they see they need to make some changes. *I thought having gone through this he would work on being the one to at least try to initiate. But no, he walks around with the oblivious look on his face. He seems content with having gone, and now where done with it, lets move on. The problem is we haven't we are doing the same thing.


Well that's one part of her job. Her job is also to help couples learn to work through their problems/issues, and to guide them in better ways of doing things.

You ended your counseling just when it go to a big breakthrough and before the next significant bit of work started.

Did you only go to counseling to get him to agree with you on this one point?


----------



## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Well that's one part of her job. Her job is also to help couples learn to work through their problems/issues, and to guide them in better ways of doing things.
> 
> You ended your counseling just when it go to a big breakthrough and before the next significant bit of work started.
> 
> Did you only go to counseling to get him to agree with you on this one point?


Wow I would recognize that harsh bitterness and mean spiritedness anywhere..Accept1 under a different name. Please go away Accept 1/Accept /EleGirl. There are people you need your kind of abuse, and even enjoy it but I am not one of them. Go Away.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

where_are_we said:


> WTH? Are you kidding me. I''m hyperventilating too leelan.
> 
> Just like the bible...submit to your husbands................if us little women would just know our places and being complacent with everything life would be good! Yes, indeed it would. There is never conflict if one person is always in charge and the other person gets no say.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with the hairs standing on the back of your neck as you hold back a loud war chant. Really...totally get it!

The book, for me, was a way to understand how I participated in my husband's progressive state of shut down.

I am not domineering, nor controlling (except about how to fold clothes..my way or the highway Buster!) but I am opinionated and I am passionate and I am impulsive and I do lack patience. Call me dynamic and spirited!

It's what attracted my husband to me in the first place. I was inspirational to a man who was fairly laid back, even tempered and and a middle of the road way of dealing with life. I am never in the middle of the road. I am all over the place all the time. On the surface, one would think us a good match. But we couldn't make it work because as I followed my heart and my passion, he came along for the ride. If he had passions he didn't pursue them, nor did he communicate them...so I don't think he had them.

It wasn't until I realized how my way of communicating my thoughts, wishes, opinions, desires, hopes stopped being inspirational to him and became TO HIM nagging, *****ing, complaining and whining. We came to the table with very different definitions of nagging, *****ing, complaining and whining!!!!

The surrendered wife is a set of instructions on how dynamic spirited women who have inadvertently turned their husbands into docile pet and another child to care for, can back out of the role and hopefully turn it around.

IOW, try it before you knock it.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Leelan said:


> Wow I would recognize that harsh bitterness and mean spiritedness anywhere..Accept1 under a different name. Please go away Accept 1/Accept /EleGirl. There are people you need your kind of abuse, and even enjoy it but I am not one of them. Go Away.


You are so off base it's laughable. I'm not Accept1. :rofl:

It sounds like you are only interested in posts from people who agree with you and fawn over you. 

Your intentions are good. Your methods are way overboard.

You and your husband are completely different types of personalities. This makes for a tough situation. Trying to change a person never works. The only person you can change is yourself.


----------



## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> You are so off base it's laughable. I'm not Accept1. :rofl:
> 
> It sounds like you are only interested in posts from people who agree with you and fawn over you.
> 
> ...


You are off base as well. No one fawns over me, ever,......especially not my husband. I wish I had your eyes because my life seems to look so much better through them.
The only thing you are really seeing is someone trying to have
a sense of humor about a very painful part of their lives. 
I hear you're a long time poster here so I Thank you for your perspective.


----------



## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

What had me dumb struck today after getting yet another criticism on wanting my husband to help me put up crown molding in our home is the unfairness of the view points towards woman who are HD with ED/LD husbands verses Men who are HD with LD wives.

If I were to say, …….I am an HD male and my wife works from home and does make more money than I do, but we share all expenses and I put up any extra money if needed. I commute to work every day and get home late, but she doesn’t cook or clean anything, and I usually have to cook dinner when I get home about 7:30 pm. I like to work on my back deck for a couple of hours if I can, but she is usually working in her office until 1 and 2 in the morning. We don’t have sex because I’m usually asleep by the time she comes to bed, and when I try to arrange or makes plans for us to be together she says she is not interested in having sex. I asked her just recently to fix me something I really like, and I would even go to the store and buy all of the ingredients and help her prep the meal. She dragged her feet about it, and when she did get around to doing it she burnt up the meal, and still tried to serve it to me, and got upset that I pointed out the condition of the meal. Who would be considered the selfish one in that scenario? Would anyone say..."How dare you ask her to cook for you, after she has been working in her home office all day. So what she never cleans the house or washes clothes. That is why she is avoiding having sex with you, and has no desire for it, because you might ask her to cook or something ?"

The only difference is that I am the women and in the above scenario and instead of cooking a meal I asked him to *help me *….., I said *help me*, put up crown molding. The verdict seems to be in my case “ How dare you ask him to build up your house” . The poor man is probably tired from working, and you have him trying to create this grand mansion because you want him to. Then you want sex, that is why he works late so he can avoid you bossing him around to do stuff. 

This confuses me, and to be fair, and in some form or another this is the same kind of reaction ( not as harsh, but still the same) I get when I attempt to talk about what I am going on with my husband to my close female family members and girlfriends. 

Which is why I love finding this forum, because for the first time, other woman have said to me , yes that is exactly what I am going through too. You’re not crazy, it is happening, and it’s not your imagination. 

I started thinking about how many other women, just go along with sexless marriages because instinctually we know that if we complain we will somehow be considered ungrateful. I thought about my mother when she told me, “ that is just how it is, …what can you do ?” Are we not allowed to have the same desire to have our sexual needs met? I know that I am just beginning this process, and this is apparently going to be what I have to fight through in my life to get to the point that I can have the fulfilling kind of sex life.


----------



## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

Total 180 in emotions, I started the week with a go get’em tiger attitude. Today I feel like a slug. I communicated how I feel to my husband, and nothing. You would think I hadn’t said a word to him.

I keep feeling like …..what have I done wrong, or what did I do wrong. Did I hurt him in some way, does he have resentment with me over something, and what else can I change to get him to show some emotions over what we are going through. I have lost weight, gained weight, lost weight again, changed my hair color, and changed my hair color back, cleaned up, not cleaned up, cooked, not cooked, spoken softly, not spoken softly. I feel like a physco. 

After my 2nd husband and before this marriage I had an affair with a married guy. Man the passion and sizzle between us, I would just look at him and be ready to drop it right where I stood. I remember him commenting after one serious no holds barred session on how that was so hot, he could feel the love I had for him. I smiled, and thought to myself…..no, it was just pent up passion. See this thing going on now has me looking back at my history, and my second husband was an LD too. He was at least more affectionate, and figured out ways to work around his issues. Do I have a freak-in tag on my forehead that says LD’s hide out here. 

They don’t start out like this, and I cannot recognize them in the beginning. It’s only after you become involved and committed that they seem to pull off the costume and say hey, I kind of got a low sex drive, do you mind ? So now I am sitting here thinking….again, this ****AGAIN. 

I am not having another affair either, it made me feel dirty about me, and I felt guilty all of the time, like I was two different people. That is a head space I will not be revisiting. 
It is getting emotionally and mentally consuming too, because every day no matter what I am doing I could be happily involved in some task or something,…and out of nowhere the thought will intrude…… that " my husband does not loves me”. 

Yes he says he does and that he just doesn’t feel interested in sex, and he thinks he has ED. But, just like I go through changes to figure out what I can do to be more attractive to him, why doesn’t he make the effort to figure out how to be more of a husband to me in this area. At least look alarmed at the prospect that his wife might leave him over this. That is the part that hurts the most, that he would just sit there, and do nothing. It kind of makes me feel like I am not worth fighting for. 

Yes, I know what you all have said, we are not compatible he is LD, and I am HD. 

It does not make it any easier, and I feel like I am the villain ruining things, and tearing up what would be a perfectly good marriage, to a perfectly respectable husband,….. if only I would be a good little wife ……just shut up and let things be as they are. I deleted the surrendered wife audiobook I downloaded, because I cannot even stand the sound of her happy, happy voice at this point. 
Tears folks, ……lots and….. lots of tears.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Sorry you are so down Leelan...you are at a painful crossroad in life.


----------



## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

Thanks.
But you would think with all our technological advancements someone would have developed an “App” for this crossroad.

Just think,…. there is a woman out there (me) somewhere in this world who has been reduced to the point of actually loving rickety, shaking, vibrating commuter buses.


----------



## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

The other day I communicated to my husband how our sexless marriage was affecting me, and I wanted to give him a couple of days to think about some of the things I had written. This morning about 10 AM I asked him if it was alright if we discussed some of the things I had written to him about. 

Our conversation lasted a little over an hour before he shut down. I did know a shutdown was coming because it usually does.


I had gotten to the point where I asked him what he thought about doing some of the suggestions I mentioned. He loves to read and I notice that he brings on 5 to 6 books on how to communicate with people. I asked him what he thought about looking into some books on men in marriage, and men’s books on sex life in marriage. I told him that there where anonymous forms online for men where he could talk about what he was going through and maybe get answers or ideas on what he could do from there. 

He said he already has books on communicating with people and how to make friends. I said those books are fine for meeting strangers and talking to the newsstand guy. A marriage has different dynamics and needs a different approach. 

He told me “I’ll see if any book catches my fancy” end quote. 


I immediately shut my mouth because the other me wanted to scream at him, “$#@!!% Catch your fancy ?”.

Instead I took a calm breath and tried to approach this from an angle I knows he understands. See my husband programs computers. So I said, ….when you are having trouble with two or three lines of a computer program that has disrupted the whole system and caused the program not to run as intended, not once have I see you get books on how to create computer programs to fix the problem. I have seen you query the problem and then research what amounts to the library of congress over what could be wrong with those three lines.

You get books and send messages to your colleagues on what can be wrong with the language of those three lines causing the entire program not to run. 

I have never heard you say once that you will see which computer book “catches your fancy” in helping you solve the programs problem.

That is where the conversation ended, his eyes were watery, and he said he trying to control his feelings. He wouldn’t say another thing about it after that and he told me he was going to try and get some sleep,…… 11:30 in the almost afternoon.

I am at a loss, and not sure what more I should be saying at this point.:scratchhead:


----------



## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

I haven’t had much to say the past few days since I had a talk with my husband on Saturday, I’ve been feeling numb. I have gone through a lot of things physically and emotionally in my life, and even think that I experienced something like this HD –vs-LD issue with my second husband. I know now that this “THING” I am going through is called a sexless marriage, and after reading some of the posts on this site and surfing the internet, I have a better understanding and an alarming picture of what I am facing. NO SEX., NO INTAMACY, A cordial existence.


So talking to my husband with this knowledge and information in my head, and knowing that no matter how much I read and know, nothing will happen unless he is willing to accept some responsibility and work with me towards changing the current condition of our marriage is very depressing. I am writing this and fighting back the tears because in my heart I know that he won’t. I think I could take it better if he told me he was gay, or even if he was having an affair. But this thing is starting to sink in that if I stay with this man I may never have sex again. He doesn’t seem to care about this at all. He doesn’t seem to fight for much, or defend much except his own idea that nothing is wrong. Man,…. I feel extremely depressed and angry at the same time. The thought even came up that I should sue him for false representation, and wasting my damn time !


I read an article the other day that said Men get married to have sex and Women have sex to get married, and I thought what a joke, because I got married to have sex with the man I love and intended to spend the rest of my life with. I did not get married to have a roommate. I don’t know how most people think and feel when they come to these realization that their dream ship is sinking and the beloved captain seems hell bent on ignoring the f****g hole in the middle of the damn ship! He just walks around blinking and talking about the direction of the wind. Am I really going to have to put on my lifejacket , getting off the ship and paddling off in my little life raft, alone ? I really was hoping that the third time is a charm held true. I am 51 years old now, and truthfully I do not feel like going back into the dating scene, and using words like boyfriend…..at 51? 

On the other hand I cannot imagine using my vibrator only for the next 10 or 15 years while lying next to a man in the same bed, or in the twin bed across from mine. I’m having a hard time with this today folks.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Oh Leelan, I'm so sorry your letter didn't produce the results you'd hoped it would. The way you describe him makes me think of a man who has a very damaged and fragile sense of himself as a human and as a man. Maybe more so as a man. Looking at it from his perspective, he comes to the table with a damaged fragile view of his relative worthiness. People like that need desperately to have the esteem of others and they have usually figured out ways to get it. We all do this anyway but a fragile man is super behind the eight ball because a man isn't supposed to be needy, he isn't supposed to express self doubt, he isn't supposed to have difficulty with ED. The fact that he has those books also tells me he WANTS to be able to communicate but doesn't know how and can't bring himself to admit that to the most important person in his life, he is a failure. 

I don't discount your feelings at all in this but my heart really goes out to him. It is so much easier for women to deal with these things than it is for men. We are allowed to be hurt, scared, unsure, needy... Men are not! We have the innate ability to relate to others that men don't have and don't always develop. You husband feels like an utter failure and can't face it. And to top it off, he loosing you because of it and he can't face that either.

Before you throw in the towel, try meeting his needs in big ways.

Build him up with words.
Show him with your happiness that he can make you happy.
Put your desire for sex, for a well kept home, for repairs away for a short time.

Make him believe that he is the best thing that ever happened to you, AS IS. Then slowly, gently, revisit the one single most important issue you two have as a couple. Once he believes in himself and feels good about himself, he can take that brutal look at the scary stuff.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

So sorry Leelan...do EVERYTHING you can before you give up though! You have a lot more work to do before this is declared hopeless.

hugs...


----------



## Catfish1986 (Oct 26, 2013)

LeeLan,


It's called Emotional Abuse. I know because I did it. 

I had LowT for years. It caused many of the same things you see from your Husband, Low Drive, Depression, lack of Passion. It was like I was in a Fog.

Has your Husband been tested for LowT?


----------



## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

Catfish1986 said:


> LeeLan,
> 
> 
> It's called Emotional Abuse. I know because I did it.
> ...


I saw the other post....but I wanted to add here that the therapist and I are discussing something called Intimacy Anorexia...you can find some information about it on the web about it.

It has to do with spouses who withhold sex and/or intimacy due to some childhood issue,..trauma...or host of other issues.

The bottom line is the neglected spouse is usually the only sign that this type of relationship is existing between them. To the world they look like the perfect couple.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Leelan, glad you're back. So what about your H? Is he in therapy?


----------

