# Wife feels "touched out"



## ZDog377

We've been running into a problem since our third child was born. We have 3 children, 9 years old, 3 years old and soon to be 1 year old. 

I try and be intimate, however when it gets outside of holding hands in the car she pushes me away because she says she is "touched out". I'm usually not home during the week because I travel for work. On the weekends I'll try and come up behind her when she's cooking or just try and kiss her when she's sitting on the couch. I'm out of ideas for what to do......


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## happy as a clam

Yikes. As someone whose "love language" is physical touch, I can't even imagine this response.

As a mom of two, I well remember toddlers and infants constantly grabbing and prodding me. But that NEVER diminished my need for a sexual, intimate touch from my husband. (Although, him being LD he rarely provided it.)

Is she depressed, struggling with motherhood, weight gain, isolated?

And there's also the possibility that she's just not "into you" any more.

We need more info. How was your sex life pre-kids?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Plan 9 from OS

You fly out Sunday afternoon, spend Monday thru Friday away, fly in Friday night and basically only have one 24 hour day a week that you spend with your wife and family? Just a guess on my part, but am I close to the mark?

IMHO, your wife has HUUUUUUGE resentments about your work schedule. You don't need help with improving intimacy, you need help trying to figure out how to stop traveling so much. Lack of sex is a symptom of the lack of time spent together, and the fact that she shoulders virtually all the burdens with raising 3 kids.


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## ZDog377

Plan 9 from OS said:


> You fly out Sunday afternoon, spend Monday thru Friday away, fly in Friday night and basically only have one 24 hour day a week that you spend with your wife and family? Just a guess on my part, but am I close to the mark?
> 
> IMHO, your wife has HUUUUUUGE resentments about your work schedule. You don't need help with improving intimacy, you need help trying to figure out how to stop traveling so much. Lack of sex is a symptom of the lack of time spent together, and the fact that she shoulders virtually all the burdens with raising 3 kids.


I usually fly out Monday and am back on Friday. It varies from week to week but it is usually that. Sometimes it can be Monday-Wednesday. Just depends. I've been looking for jobs that are at home, however they are lower paying than I am making now. That is a huge thing considering she is a stay at home mom.


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## lifeistooshort

Plan 9 from OS said:


> You fly out Sunday afternoon, spend Monday thru Friday away, fly in Friday night and basically only have one 24 hour day a week that you spend with your wife and family? Just a guess on my part, but am I close to the mark?
> 
> IMHO, your wife has HUUUUUUGE resentments about your work schedule. You don't need help with improving intimacy, you need help trying to figure out how to stop traveling so much. Lack of sex is a symptom of the lack of time spent together, and the fact that she shoulders virtually all the burdens with raising 3 kids.


This X 1000. From her perspective she's a single parent and then you show up wanting sex, but since you're never there she isn't bonded to you. You're a stranger who pays bills and shows up on the weekend looking for sex. 

Please consider looking for another job so you can bond with your wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ZDog377

happy as a clam said:


> Yikes. As someone whose "love language" is physical touch, I can't even imagine this response.
> 
> As a mom of two, I well remember toddlers and infants constantly grabbing and prodding me. But that NEVER diminished my need for a sexual, intimate touch from my husband. (Although, him being LD he rarely provided it.)
> 
> Is she depressed, struggling with motherhood, weight gain, isolated?
> 
> And there's also the possibility that she's just not "into you" any more.
> 
> We need more info. How was your sex life pre-kids?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sex life with one child was good, it was good leading up to the second one because she wanted to get pregnant. We had some trouble with that so there was lots of practice.


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## TAMAT

ZDog,

If it came on suddenly there is a reasonable chance she is in an emotional affair with someone else, is she communicating excessively with any one person? Why doesn't she want to touch you because she is being loyal to someone else now.

Snoop to see what is going on.

Tamat


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## WorkingOnMe

TAMAT said:


> ZDog,
> 
> 
> 
> If it came on suddenly there is a reasonable chance she is in an emotional affair with someone else, is she communicating excessively with any one person? Why doesn't she want to touch you because she is being loyal to someone else now.
> 
> 
> 
> Snoop to see what is going on.
> 
> 
> 
> Tamat




Maybe, but how would he know? He doesnt live there.


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## Mr.Fisty

A simple answer is that love needs to be nurtured to stay healthy. Even with your children, they will be more strongly attached with their mother.

I suggest you take the time to communicate with your wife and try finding solutions as a couple.

Tell her that you miss the intimacy and how you both can work as a team to get back to a strong relationship.

Write down the needs you both have, the needs of the children, and the needs of the family. In the end, no one will get 100% of what they want, but at least you will both have some ideas of working towards the middle of what conditions you are both okay with.

The hard part is that your bond is weak. With a strong bond, there will be a tendency to listen, understand, and a stronger motivation to work as a unit.


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## ZDog377

Mr.Fisty said:


> A simple answer is that love needs to be nurtured to stay healthy. Even with your children, they will be more strongly attached with their mother.
> 
> I suggest you take the time to communicate with your wife and try finding solutions as a couple.
> 
> Tell her that you miss the intimacy and how you both can work as a team to get back to a strong relationship.
> 
> Write down the needs you both have, the needs of the children, and the needs of the family. In the end, no one will get 100% of what they want, but at least you will both have some ideas of working towards the middle of what conditions you are both okay with.
> 
> The hard part is that your bond is weak. With a strong bond, there will be a tendency to listen, understand, and a stronger motivation to work as a unit.


I have tried working on communication. When I am out of town, I try and talk to her at least 3x/day (morning, lunch, after work). On the weekends she feels like she needs to keep the kids running to stay happy. I can't remember the last weekend (Saturday or Sunday) that we spent just hanging around home. I've had two jobs since we have been together and both have been traveling so it is nothing new to her. In fact, this job has me home more than the one I had when we first got married.


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## ConanHub

Have you read The Five Love Languages?

Start there. Take time with her to read through it and do the questions.

Just reading it together will solve a couple of problems. She doesn't feel connected to you. Your have to invest more than money to keep your relationship strong.

If her behavior did develop suddenly, an affair of some kind can't be ruled out.

Not making excuses but some cheaters only cheat when they are being neglected.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

She plans activities that require running around with the kids every weekend?
Even with a child under one year old?

So almost every day you are present is planned so no intimacy of any kind can occur between you?

How long has she been arranging this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ZDog377

ConanHub said:


> She plans activities that require running around with the kids every weekend?
> Even with a child under one year old?
> 
> So almost every day you are present is planned so no intimacy of any kind can occur between you?
> 
> How long has she been arranging this?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It will be stuff like grocery shopping, having to run to home improvement stores to get stuff for projects. The 9 year old needs someone to constantly be doing something with him. For example, up until last month was baseball season on Sundays. Over the winter it was basketball season. Then in the fall it was football season. Then he's always saying I need to go outside and do something with him.


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## ConanHub

ZDog377 said:


> It will be stuff like grocery shopping, having to run to home improvement stores to get stuff for projects. The 9 year old needs someone to constantly be doing something with him. For example, up until last month was baseball season on Sundays. Over the winter it was basketball season. Then in the fall it was football season. Then he's always saying I need to go outside and do something with him.


She could be shopping and getting home improvement items when you aren't there. I understand your son wanting time with you.

For her to arrange errands the only days you are home is bad.

Your marriage is in pretty bad shape and you are in danger of having a WAW or a cheating one.

Something needs work yesterday. Often times men are the last to realize their marriage is over. Yours is probably close.

Reconnect with your wife. Your kids are important but your relationship with your wife is more so.

Make her a priority. Get that book and read it with her.

I bet her love languages are quality time and maybe acts of service.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SecondTime'Round

Your wife is a stay at home single mother most of the time. She needs a break. I remember feeling "touched out" when mine were little, too, and I had a helpful husband who was home every night.


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## ZDog377

SecondTime'Round said:


> Your wife is a stay at home single mother most of the time. She needs a break. I remember feeling "touched out" when mine were little, too, and I had a helpful husband who was home every night.


That's the problem, I've told her I take care of the kids so she can go do something, even a weekend away. She doesn't like my job any other time, but doesn't seem to mind that she has all these hotel points and frequent flyer miles she can use if all she does is ask. Taking care of the baby is rough just because he is nursing, but I can work through it.


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## anonmd

Wait out the breast feeding, then if it doesn't change address it. 

My god, 3 kids by herself all week long with one hanging off her boob and you people think she is cheating? Really!!


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## ZDog377

anonmd said:


> Wait out the breast feeding, then if it doesn't change address it.
> 
> My god, 3 kids by herself all week long with one hanging off her boob and you people think she is cheating? Really!!


I don't believe she is cheating, I don't think she has the time and she has also seen first hand what it does.


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## SecondTime'Round

anonmd said:


> Wait out the breast feeding, then if it doesn't change address it.
> 
> My god, 3 kids by herself all week long with one hanging off her boob and you people think she is cheating? Really!!


lol, I agree. This woman is not cheating.


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## Mr. Nail

Well I can see her point of view my middle daughters were a bit closer than that 1 and 3. When they were pre school the demanded a huge amount of Touch and the competition for dad lap time only made it more. I spent he first hour home every night with 2 kids in my lap. I don't know how Wife and D#1 ever got any time with me. A 9 year old son needs a lot of Dad time. He needs more than sports, he needs doing and making, and adventuring. 

I know that you (Zdog) are focused on the marriage needs right now, and that is right. Without the survival of the marriage, when this calms down in a few years, there will be nothing to reconnect to. *If you want to connect to your wife while she is washing dishes, Don't put your hands on her, put them in the water.* 

Aside from that I do agree with Conan Get that book.


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## SecondTime'Round

Mr. Nail said:


> *If you want to connect to your wife while she is washing dishes, Don't put your hands on her, put them in the water.*


Quote of the day, right there.


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## techmom

Ok, just to summarize, you have 3 kids, 2of them below 5 years old, and you are gone from Monday thru Friday traveling. No emotional connection and she's with the kids almost all of the time. This is bad, you need to cut down the travel time if you want her to feel desirous again. She rarely sees you, so how can she want a connection with you?


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## inhope

ConanHub said:


> She could be shopping and getting home improvement items when you aren't there. I understand your son wanting time with you.
> For her to arrange errands the only days you are home is bad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, but you try arranging grocery shopping, errands and getting home improvement stuff on your own with a nursing 1 year old and rwo other kids, one only 3.
I guess she is maxed out. He is "swanning about" all week free from responsibility for the kids, whilst she soldiers on day and night on her own. 
As someone else said he IS basically a stranger showing up and then wanting sex at the weekends.

This is 9 years now, shouldering all this on her own, I guess she is just tired of it - burnt out.


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## NobodySpecial

ConanHub said:


> She could be shopping and getting home improvement items when you aren't there. I understand your son wanting time with you.
> 
> For her to arrange errands the only days you are home is bad.


Ok I am the NUMBER ONE SAHP needs to suck it up and get stuff done with his or her kids in tow. BUT one year old is still pretty young. She has TWO nappers at home. So getting those errands done can be hard.

Balance, understanding and compromise here would be bet #1. For many SAHPs, their partners come home at the end of the day, and they can tag team chores and errands. This is not the case for her.




> Your marriage is in pretty bad shape and you are in danger of having a WAW or a cheating one.


Baffling. What SAHM of a 3yo and a 1yo who is breastfeeding has the capacity to even CONSIDER an affair? That is mind numbing. 



> Something needs work yesterday. Often times men are the last to realize their marriage is over. Yours is probably close.
> 
> Reconnect with your wife. Your kids are important but your relationship with your wife is more so.
> 
> Make her a priority. Get that book and read it with her.
> 
> I bet her love languages are quality time and maybe acts of service.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Love language is important. BUT it is not the cure all. What I found it helped me for was to HEAR when he was speaking HIS love language at me. It is brutally hard to change the main activitiy that speaks love to someone else' language. I can manage touch (remember it actually) a teeny percentage of the time he would really prefer it. But since educating ourselves, we know WHY and can appreciate the other one.


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## lifeistooshort

Sometimes I wonder if every wife who isn't on her back with her legs enthusiastically spread every time hubby gets an itch is cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

NobodySpecial said:


> Ok I am the NUMBER ONE SAHP needs to suck it up and get stuff done with his or her kids in tow. BUT one year old is still pretty young. She has TWO nappers at home. So getting those errands done can be hard.
> 
> Balance, understanding and compromise here would be bet #1. For many SAHPs, their partners come home at the end of the day, and they can tag team chores and errands. This is not the case for her.
> 
> 
> 
> Baffling. What SAHM of a 3yo and a 1yo who is breastfeeding has the capacity to even CONSIDER an affair? That is mind numbing.
> 
> 
> 
> Love language is important. BUT it is not the cure all. What I found it helped me for was to HEAR when he was speaking HIS love language at me. It is brutally hard to change the main activitiy that speaks love to someone else' language. I can manage touch (remember it actually) a teeny percentage of the time he would really prefer it. But since educating ourselves, we know WHY and can appreciate the other one.


You would be so surprised at the behavior I have witnessed over the years.

I have seen men swoop in and start picking up the slack in a situation like this and an affair starts. 

I'm actually pointing my blasters at OP.

There situation is bad! I'm not saying the wife is bad. His marriage is probably closer to being done than he realizes.

The book I recommended will make them sit down together and focus on each other.

The reason I am saying how she sets up errands for when he is around is bad is because her priority on her relationship has been sidelined.

Errands are important but don't fulfill each other emotionally. A roommate can help run errands.

Again. Not calling the wife bad. Her actions do not speak well for the state of their marriage.

Nobody. There are also different factors at play with you that could easily alter your outcome of reading the suggested book.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> Sometimes I wonder if every wife who isn't on her back with her legs enthusiastically spread every time hubby gets an itch is cheating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well I didn't say she was but she is certainly at an increased risk for it or WAW syndrome.

I actually haven't even touched on the sex issue yet. I believe OPs marriage has been sliding for too long and she is or has checked out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial

ConanHub said:


> Again. Not calling the wife bad. *Her actions *do not speak well for the state of their marriage.


I think that would be an unhelpful focus. THEY have a problem. That problem is 

- Three small children, 2 nappers, 1 still breastfeeding.
- Husband who travels the entirety of every work week.

Something has to give.



> Nobody. There are also different factors at play with you that could easily alter your outcome of reading the suggested book.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am not sure how I could have shared my takeaway from the book without having read the book, though it was a long time ago. Not sure my outcomes are in question here since things are pretty peachy right now.


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## ZDog377

ConanHub said:


> Well I didn't say she was but she is certainly at an increased risk for it or WAW syndrome.
> 
> I actually haven't even touched on the sex issue yet. I believe OPs marriage has been sliding for too long and she is or has checked out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think she has completely checked out. It has to be a perfect storm for things to happen. We do have sexual activities maybe every 3 weeks, possibly every other. Sex is usually once a month, maybe twice. I do try the back massages and things like that so it is not just quickie sex but most of the time that is what it ends up being.


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## Runs like Dog

Tell her you're talked out.


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## ConanHub

NobodySpecial said:


> I think that would be an unhelpful focus. THEY have a problem. That problem is
> 
> - Three small children, 2 nappers, 1 still breastfeeding.
> - Husband who travels the entirety of every work week.
> 
> Something has to give.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure how I could have shared my takeaway from the book without having read the book, though it was a long time ago. Not sure my outcomes are in question here since things are pretty peachy right now.


You are certainly missing what I am saying. I am not trying to get OP to focus on changing her actions to better the marriage. I am pointing them out as warning signs.

I am suggesting a commitment of time from both of them to go through the book and do the questions.

I believe it will be an excellent first step and, if followed, will result in a drastic improvement of their marital satisfaction.

Each of their emotional needs are not being met with her in worse shape than her husband.

OP. Her reaction to being touched by you does mean she is in the process of checking out at some level.

Her needs are not being met. She is building resentment towards you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yeswecan

lifeistooshort said:


> This X 1000. From her perspective she's a single parent and then you show up wanting sex, but since you're never there she isn't bonded to you. You're a stranger who pays bills and shows up on the weekend looking for sex.
> 
> Please consider looking for another job so you can bond with your wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bingo! You appear to be just another person in the home requiring her attention. Look for a job that keeps you home as much as possible. Four kids to take care of by one's self is not an easy task. Then throw in another person to look after...


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## Yeswecan

anonmd said:


> Wait out the breast feeding, then if it doesn't change address it.
> 
> My god, 3 kids by herself all week long with one hanging off her boob and you people think she is cheating? Really!!


That would be multi-tasking on a different level. :surprise:


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## NobodySpecial

ConanHub said:


> You are certainly missing what I am saying. I am not trying to get OP to focus on changing her actions to better the marriage. I am pointing them out as warning signs.


I see your bet and raise you! 

I totally understand what you are saying. I am disagreeing with you. 

Agree Or Be Wrong T by cafepretzel






> I am suggesting a commitment of time from both of them to go through the book and do the questions.
> 
> I believe it will be an excellent first step and, if followed, will result in a drastic improvement of their marital satisfaction.


I agree with that advice.


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## ConanHub

NobodySpecial said:


> I see your bet and raise you!
> 
> I totally understand what you are saying. I am disagreeing with you.
> 
> Agree Or Be Wrong T by cafepretzel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with that advice.


If you don't think her behavior shows a danger sign concerning their marriage then we do disagree.

I have seen it happen over and over like a very predictable pattern for eventual destruction of marriages.

This marriage is in trouble.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial

ConanHub said:


> If you don't think her behavior shows a danger sign concerning their marriage then we do disagree.
> 
> I have seen it happen over and over like a very predictable pattern for eventual destruction of marriages.
> 
> This marriage is in trouble.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was being entirely goofy. I think you are right.


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## ConanHub

P.S. I am positive and his time away from his family is the key issue.

I was probably being too obtuse about what seemed obvious to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

NobodySpecial said:


> I was being entirely goofy. I think you are right.


Sorry. I might be a little thick today. 

His distance from his family is the obvious factor.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial

ConanHub said:


> Sorry. I might be a little thick today.
> 
> His distance from his family is the obvious factor.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or my joke was dumb!


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## lifeistooshort

ConanHub said:


> If you don't think her behavior shows a danger sign concerning their marriage then we do disagree.
> 
> I have seen it happen over and over like a very predictable pattern for eventual destruction of marriages.
> 
> This marriage is in trouble.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'd suggest that him being fine with being away from his wife and kids 5 days a week suggests it's own issues. Nobody who's that invested in the family would be ok with that. There's nothing to suggest he's even considered looking for a job that allows him to be home. I'd suspect a woman working away from home like this would tagged a selfish wife and mother. How does one maintain an intimate relationship when they're hardly ever together?

If he was getting sex he'd apparently be fine with being away most of the time. That's why he's here right? What does that tell you? 

I agree the marriage is in trouble. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anonymous07

ZDog377 said:


> I usually fly out Monday and am back on Friday. It varies from week to week but it is usually that. Sometimes it can be Monday-Wednesday. Just depends. I've been looking for jobs that are at home, however they are lower paying than I am making now. That is a huge thing considering she is a stay at home mom.


Your *#1 priority* right now needs to be looking for a new job closer to home, where you can actually be with your family. If the jobs are lower paying, then look for ways to cut back and make it work. You can get rid of cable, switch internet plans, switch cell phone planes, get rid of a home phone(only using cells), shop around for the lowest insurance coverage, shop sales and buy used, do some haircuts at home, cut back on extras(sports, etc.), and so on. Your wife and children need you physically there in order to have a healthy family. My husband does not have a high paying job at all, but we make it work with me staying at home. There are plenty of options, but you have to make that move.


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## jb02157

I think it would really help if your wife was willing to go back to work so you could take a job that doesn't travel as much. Your wife being a SAHM will be a real problem if you don't do anything about it. They tend to get the way you describe after awhile.


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## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> I'd suggest that him being fine with being away from his wife and kids 5 days a week suggests it's own issues. Nobody who's that invested in the family would be ok with that. There's nothing to suggest he's even considered looking for a job that allows him to be home. I'd suspect a woman working away from home like this would tagged a selfish wife and mother. How does one maintain an intimate relationship when they're hardly ever together?
> 
> If he was getting sex he'd apparently be fine with being away most of the time. That's why he's here right? What does that tell you?
> 
> I agree the marriage is in trouble.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


See my other posts. We don't disagree. I was pointing out warning signs to OP that his wife is growing resentful of him and their marriage is in trouble. Not that what she was doing was causing the problems but her actions are a sign and symptom.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Plan 9 from OS

ZDog377 said:


> It will be stuff like grocery shopping, *having to run to home improvement stores to get stuff for projects. * The 9 year old needs someone to constantly be doing something with him. For example, up until last month was baseball season on Sundays. Over the winter it was basketball season. Then in the fall it was football season. Then he's always saying I need to go outside and do something with him.


OK, why is she the one going to Home Depot, Lowes, etc to get the home improvement supplies? Is she also doing the home improvements during the week while you are gone? if that's the case, then honestly she does not see you as the man of the house. I don't mean that to be sexist, but if she's doing home improvements and you are not, then the only thing she needs you for is the paycheck. Dude, you need to get off the road like yesterday.


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## anonmd

Maybe, but I stand by my comment. Get the 1 year old off the tit. "I feel touched out" is a normal mom of an infant feeling.


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## Openminded

Maybe your wife coped just fine when she only had one child to deal with, and had tons of energy for sex, but found life more difficult with two children and really, really difficult with three children when she's functioning as a single parent all week. 

Being home alone with one child during the week is obviously much different than being home alone with three children during the week (especially with a toddler and a still-nursing baby). I'm not at all surprised she's "touched out".


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## Plan 9 from OS

OP, I'm going to apologize in advance with this post. However, I think it needs to be stated.

How in the hell can you be so daft that you cannot comprehend that your wife is no longer attracted to you sexually because you travel so much for your job - where she is left to watch 3 young children, take care of the house and not have any adult at the home on most days to have an intelligent conversation with?


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## anonmd

I must have missed something, did he say that?


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## just got it 55

OP take this from a guy 37 years married

When our four children 8 years between the oldest and the youngest were very young, I may as well been gone 5 days a week as you are at times.

My wife handled that and never said a word about dissatisfaction.However I could feel the resentment there.

So I have a feel for what your wife is experiencing.

Take the short term financial hit change jobs and save your marriage.Get your wife out of the house and she can work part time.Not only will this supplement your lost income, it will be therapeutic.

Oh and dude you got some learning to do with massages
Never let it lead to sex.....That's just a slick move that wouldn't fool an 8th grade middle school girl. 

Just a covert act looking for reciprocity. Get it ?

55


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## ZDog377

lifeistooshort said:


> I'd suggest that him being fine with being away from his wife and kids 5 days a week suggests it's own issues. Nobody who's that invested in the family would be ok with that. There's nothing to suggest he's even considered looking for a job that allows him to be home. I'd suspect a woman working away from home like this would tagged a selfish wife and mother. How does one maintain an intimate relationship when they're hardly ever together?
> 
> If he was getting sex he'd apparently be fine with being away most of the time. That's why he's here right? What does that tell you?
> 
> I agree the marriage is in trouble.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I never said I was fine with being away five days a week. I do what I have to for supporting my family. This job was a 25% pay increase from my old job which had me away from home even more. Also, I never said it was just about the sex. I agree that a quickie has a time and place, but I prefer something more in depth. That's why this concerns me.


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## SecondTime'Round

ZDog377 said:


> I never said I was fine with being away five days a week. I do what I have to for supporting my family. This job was a 25% pay increase from my old job which had me away from home even more. Also, I never said it was just about the sex. I agree that a quickie has a time and place, *but I prefer something more in depth. * That's why this concerns me.


But you're not going to get that from an exhausted wife you rarely see.


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## just got it 55

ZDog377 said:


> I never said I was fine with being away five days a week. I do what I have to for supporting my family. This job was a 25% pay increase from my old job which had me away from home even more. Also, I never said it was just about the sex. I agree that a quickie has a time and place, but I prefer something more in depth. That's why this concerns me.


You gotta dig deeper than that Skippy

55


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## Chana

Seven years ago we were in a very similar position. We had a 3.5 year old (who didn't sleep through the night very often, and was up for the day before 5am) and a nearly 1 year old who breastfed throughout the day and night. My husband worked away M-F. I used the phrase "touched out" more than once, and it was true, I felt like I was being pulled at all day. But mostly I was resentful and angry. And exhausted ... really, really exhausted.

I was resentful that he'd get to sleep through the night, stay in a nice, clean, QUIET hotel room, have meals brought to him, interact with adults without being interrupted by children/babies constantly, have time to take an entire shower without someone needing something urgently. So, so resentful.

Meanwhile, he was stressed (job-related), he missed us, he had nothing to do in the town he stayed in so he got into the habit of working, constantly, until late at night, which made it harder for him to switch off from work-mode when he was home.

He'd come home on weekends, I felt he just dumped his washing and basically behave like he was still staying in a hotel (I can see in retrospect this wasn't accurate but at the time that's how it felt).

Our communication during the week while he was away lessened over time which made our general connection with each other lessen. It was horrible, easily the worst time in our marriage.

In the end, I weaned the baby (I desperately needed more sleep and she was eating well on solids by then anyway) and that particular client job ended so he wasn't traveling as much. Even so, after this it took a LONG time for us to get back on track.

I don't necessarily think your situation will reflect mine apart from the obvious similarities but I will say this. A lot of posts on this (apparently pro-marriage) website seem to set relationships up like a battle: don't apologise, don't give something unless you get what you want first, treat them a particular way to get them to do what you want. In my experience, a marriage like that is not a good marriage. I think you both need to be on the same page and wanting the same thing and working for it together (I know this isn't easy). 

Do you have an end-point for the travel? Would it be worth moving your family nearer your job? What does your wife see as a solution? Is her solution realistic? Is there a compromise?

I do wish you well, and hope you can both work together to feel more connected and happier in your marriage.


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## Catherine602

I understand how she feels. When I had a breast feeding baby and a toddler, I felt like a milk filling station, human tree, and household drudge. No romantic spontaneous hugs and kisses during this period. It passed when the children were not as needy. 

This is a phase for her and you. You are not doing anything wrong. You are supporting the family and I assume that the travel , more money and 3 children was something you both wanted. It is hard to predict how well your wife and yourself would handle the work schedule and 3 children. If this is difficult, it's up to you and your wife to decide what should be changed. It's important to make decisions fir change together just like you both made the decision about work and children. 

Maybe you can talk about plans for the future. How long do you see yourself traveling away from home, do you think taking a job closer to home and living more frugally is better for your marriage and children. 

I am not sure how much longer your marriage will survive under the current circumstances. Can you see this arrangement working long term? Does your wife plan to go to work when the children are older? Any relatives around?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ZDog377

She has said she would go back to work when the kids are older, it's financially not worth it with the cost of day care. There is not really an option to move closer to work, I travel all over the US for work. The baby is eating solids, he is only nursing at certain times now, mainly morning and before bed.


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## DTO

lifeistooshort said:


> I'd suggest that him being fine with being away from his wife and kids 5 days a week suggests it's own issues. Nobody who's that invested in the family would be ok with that. There's nothing to suggest he's even considered looking for a job that allows him to be home.


Not quite true. He did say early on in the thread that the jobs which require less travel paid less, which was a problem since she was a SAHM. So he obviously has thought about changing jobs.

Z-Dog: Not withstanding what I wrote above, I'm not seeing that you have explored every option here. I have a couple of thoughts:

First, your wife must be part of the solution. I understand her being touched out and unresponsive to you, but she cannot torpedo every suggestion you offer.

Does she really have so few skills that she cannot earn enough to pay for daycare? Or is it that she would not have enough left to make it "worth her time"? Or how about if she worked a couple of night shifts so that day care would not be an issue?

Two, have you really looked hard at your budget? Cut out all extras (cable TV, organized sports for the kids)?

Where do you live? It seems that if you travel the U.S., you could live fairly cheaply and the only requirement is that you are close to an airport.

Just making the point that you need to really think outside the box and make some unpopular choices perhaps to keep this marriage on track.


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## DTO

Plan 9 from OS said:


> How in the hell can you be so daft that you cannot comprehend that your wife is no longer attracted to you sexually because you travel so much for your job - where she is left to watch 3 young children, take care of the house and not have any adult at the home on most days to have an intelligent conversation with?


Ouch, unfair and uncalled for.

I think he does know what's happening but does not know how to fix it. Not sure why you are tearing him down like that.

I prefer to start by noting that in today's economy, taking care of a family of five on a single income is an accomplishment. I have a sense that maybe his wife is unhappy but does not want to switch up her routine to help resolve their issues.

He works plenty hard. Maybe we should be more uplifting.


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## norajane

ZDog377 said:


> I never said I was fine with being away five days a week. I do what I have to for supporting my family. This job was a 25% pay increase from my old job which had me away from home even more. Also, I never said it was just about the sex. I agree that a quickie has a time and place, but I prefer something more in depth. That's why this concerns me.


Have you talked with your wife about your job, the travel, and the effect it's having on your marriage? I don't mean just the sex, that's only one symptom of how disconnected you two are as a couple. Tell her you're worried that your marriage is in trouble because you're away so much, and you'd like to be home more. Tell her that you're worried about her trying to manage 3 kids on her own so often. Ask her what she thinks about you taking a lower paying job so you can spend more time with her AND your children.

You are a team, so act like she is on your team. Talk with her about the problems and discuss possible solutions together.


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## Plan 9 from OS

My wife could never produce enough milk to nurse, so we went the formula route. Anyways, as soon as the baby hits 12 months old, we switched to whole cows milk for all 3 kids. They took to it very well and that was that. If your baby is at least 1 year old, there is no reason why he/she has to nurse.


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## ZDog377

norajane said:


> Have you talked with your wife about your job, the travel, and the effect it's having on your marriage? I don't mean just the sex, that's only one symptom of how disconnected you two are as a couple. Tell her you're worried that your marriage is in trouble because you're away so much, and you'd like to be home more. Tell her that you're worried about her trying to manage 3 kids on her own so often. Ask her what she thinks about you taking a lower paying job so you can spend more time with her AND your children.
> 
> You are a team, so act like she is on your team. Talk with her about the problems and discuss possible solutions together.


We were able to talk for some time last night and came to the agreement that we need to have a "date" night at least once a month. I've also started reading the Five Love Languages book. We are slowly working through it. Thanks for all the help so far.


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## inhope

Chana said:


> Seven years ago we were in a very similar position. We had a 3.5 year old (who didn't sleep through the night very often, and was up for the day before 5am) and a nearly 1 year old who breastfed throughout the day and night. My husband worked away M-F. I used the phrase "touched out" more than once, and it was true, I felt like I was being pulled at all day. But mostly I was resentful and angry. And exhausted ... really, really exhausted.
> 
> *I was resentful that he'd get to sleep through the night, stay in a nice, clean, QUIET hotel room, have meals brought to him, interact with adults without being interrupted by children/babies constantly, have time to take an entire shower without someone needing something urgently. So, so resentful.*


^^^I guess this is where your wife is at. 
25% extra sounds great, but at the expense of your marriage and your kids?
Maybe you are happy being at arm's length from the real nitty gritty of parenting, some men are. I guess some men are perfectly happy working away M-F, at least they get a good nights sleep whilst the SAHM is run ragged.
However you cannot expect to stay away and return at the weekends and act like the prodigal son.

You have to have to have heart to heart discussions with your wife here and iron all this out. 
Leave sex out of it, you will come across as whiny and selfish - she is at the end of her tether and you just want sex?! - She will close you down and you will get nowhere. You need to get to the bottom of the resentment and sort that out first, once you are both on the same page and she becomes reconnected to you, the sex will come back.
If you don't sort this out right, the minute she goes back to work, some very understanding co worker will be very happy to take your place in her affections.


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## SecondTime'Round

ZDog377 said:


> We were able to talk for some time last night and came to the agreement that we need to have a "date" night at least once a month. I've also started reading the Five Love Languages book. We are slowly working through it. Thanks for all the help so far.


Has she read the book? Does she know what her love language is?

Side note: I highly doubt that nursing twice a day is the problem here. Or really nursing at all....it's just having 3 kids all alone most of the time.


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## Cynthia

I remember those days of feeling touched out. Sometimes I just wanted to be left alone for a while.

I think this mom needs a babysitter to come in once a week so she can do her shopping alone, rather than on the weekends. She also needs to get involved in some ladies groups during the day, so she has some relief and her children can play with other children.

Some people put a high priority on nursing. My husband and I did. I believe in extended breastfeeding due to many factors. In our American culture, not many people do that or understand it, but some people (myself included) feel strongly about the benefits for the children. For my husband and I it was a non-negotiable.

It wasn't just breastfeeding that made me feel touched out, however. It was having three little children that wanted to be on me all day long. They were all high in physical touch and I had to nurture them, so I gave them what they needed.

The question is, "what does she need?" As others have stated, he needs are clearly not being met. Finding out what her needs are and how to meet them is important.

Husband and wife are supposed to be raising the children together, but if you are not there to participate, except on weekends, it is all left to her. On the weekends she finally has your contribution, but there is nothing left in her to give to you. All she does is give. You "giving" her a massage is clearly not what she needs, especially since you are giving to get. To her it may just be another chore. You are not connecting with her. Your wife is headed for burnout if something isn't done to ease the situation for her and give her a chance to have some time for herself and get her needs met.

The weekends should not be all about chores. It should be for quality family time and quality marriage time as well. You should get a babysitter at least once per month.


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## Cynthia

Basically what I'm trying to say is that if you are going to continue with your schedule being out of town most of the time, some changes must be made.
Your wife needs:
Time to herself during the week, even if it's only for grocery shopping.
Time with other adults during the week where the children are playing with other children.
To see that her husband is engaged with the family and contributing to the care of the home and children, beyond only financial.
To be cared for, rather than doing all the giving and not receiving anything. She may feel like a servant with none of her needs being considered.

I outlined some options to help with this in my post above.


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## Plan 9 from OS

CynthiaDe said:


> The weekends should not be for chores. It should be for quality family time and quality marriage time. You should get a babysitter at least once per month.


Easier said than done for many families out there. Even with both parents at home on most nights, this isn't always doable and particularly not so as the kids get older and are in activities. However, our family have a decent way to skin that cat. We do the chores together as a family. My wife and I will tackle home repairs together. While there are things that only I can do, in most cases we work together. We washed all the windows inside and out together. It took 4 hours, but in the afternoon we laid on the bed together and had some passionate sex after the chores were done. Also we'll cook together, rip up carpet together, and do yard work together. She'll clean during the day while I'm working, so most cleaning is done during the week. Kids are forced to do chores regularly too.

Does this sound tedious? Absolutely. But...it's a simple way to actually spend time together. Even when we work together, my wife and I will still talk about various things. When you can take a chore and find a way to have some quality time with your spouse, it goes far to making the marriage stronger AND less resentment developing on either side.


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## Cynthia

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Easier said than done for many families out there. Even with both parents at home on most nights, this isn't always doable and particularly not so as the kids get older and are in activities. However, our family have a decent way to skin that cat. We do the chores together as a family. My wife and I will tackle home repairs together. While there are things that only I can do, in most cases we work together. We washed all the windows inside and out together. It took 4 hours, but in the afternoon we laid on the bed together and had some passionate sex after the chores were done. Also we'll cook together, rip up carpet together, and do yard work together. She'll clean during the day while I'm working, so most cleaning is done during the week. Kids are forced to do chores regularly too.
> 
> Does this sound tedious? Absolutely. But...it's a simple way to actually spend time together. Even when we work together, my wife and I will still talk about various things. When you can take a chore and find a way to have some quality time with your spouse, it goes far to making the marriage stronger AND less resentment developing on either side.


That makes sense. I will edit it to say that it shouldn't only be about chores. There has to be time for fun. I do agree that working together is good and that she would likely feel much more supported if they are working together on projects.


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## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> Basically what I'm trying to say is that if you are going to continue with your schedule being out of town most of the time, some changes must be made.
> Your wife needs:
> Time to herself during the week, even if it's only for grocery shopping.
> Time with other adults during the week where the children are playing with other children.
> To see that her husband is engaged with the family and contributing to the care of the home and children, beyond only financial.
> To be cared for, rather than doing all the giving and not receiving anything. She may feel like a servant with none of her needs being considered.
> 
> I outlined some options to help with this in my post above.


She is able to go grocery shopping by herself, it's usually Sunday nights after the baby is in bed. I am able to get the other two in bed by the time she gets back. She usually does PTO during the week, although the kids are sometimes along for that. 

Also, I am engaged with the family. I helped coach his baseball team two years in a row, I'm trying to teach the three year old how to ride a bike.


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## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> She is able to go grocery shopping by herself, it's usually Sunday nights after the baby is in bed. I am able to get the other two in bed by the time she gets back. She usually does PTO during the week, although the kids are sometimes along for that.
> 
> Also, I am engaged with the family. I helped coach his baseball team two years in a row, I'm trying to teach the three year old how to ride a bike.


That's not my point. She should be able to shop alone during the week, while you are gone. When you are home, you two should be together.
Also, grocery shopping at night, while the baby is in bed should be her downtime, not her shopping time.


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## Holdingontoit

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Easier said than done for many families out there. Even with both parents at home on most nights, this isn't always doable and particularly not so as the kids get older and are in activities.


Depends on the family's priorities. Some families prioritize the kids' activities over the parents' relationship. Some families realize that if the parents are unhappy about their marriage, good chance the kids are in trouble no matter how many spelling bees or soccer games they play. The question is whether the parents (and especially mothers) realize that expending 100% of her available time and energy on kids and 0% on herself, her husband and their marriage is NOT what is best for the kids. Saving some time and energy for herself, her husband and their marriage is BETTER, even if that means that the kids are "deprived" of some of her available time and energy. Sometimes less is more.

If both parents agree with 100% priority on kids, and both are happy, great. But if one is not happy, their is no moral superiority from insisting "but I am doing it for the kids". Not because it is wrong to value the kids. But because it is factually wrong to say that focusing on the kids to the exclusion of the marriage is in fact what is good for the kids.


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## Anonymous07

CynthiaDe said:


> I remember those days of feeling touched out. Sometimes I just wanted to be left alone for a while.
> 
> I think this mom needs a babysitter to come in once a week so she can do her shopping alone, rather than on the weekends. She also needs to get involved in some ladies groups during the day, so she has some relief and her children can play with other children.
> 
> Some people put a high priority on nursing. My husband and I did. I believe in extended breastfeeding due to many factors. In our American culture, not many people do that or understand it, but some people (myself included) feel strongly about the benefits for the children. For my husband and I it was a non-negotiable.
> 
> It wasn't just breastfeeding that made me feel touched out, however. It was having three little children that wanted to be on me all day long. They were all high in physical touch and I had to nurture them, so I gave them what they needed.
> 
> The question is, "what does she need?" As others have stated, he needs are clearly not being met. Finding out what her needs are and how to meet them is important.
> 
> Husband and wife are supposed to be raising the children together, but if you are not there to participate, except on weekends, it is all left to her. On the weekends she finally has your contribution, but there is nothing left in her to give to you. All she does is give. You "giving" her a massage is clearly not what she needs, especially since you are giving to get. To her it may just be another chore. You are not connecting with her. Your wife is headed for burnout if something isn't done to ease the situation for her and give her a chance to have some time for herself and get her needs met.
> 
> The weekends should not be all about chores. It should be for quality family time and quality marriage time as well. You should get a babysitter at least once per month.


If nothing changes, I think a babysitter can help, but the *best* option would be for him to find a new job(even if it's less pay!) to be home more often. You can barely call it a marriage when you only see each other on the weekends. I would definitely feel "touched out", not from breastfeeding and I had breastfed my son until 18 months old, but from parenting alone without the help of my husband. There is just no connection and nothing to make up for that time physically together. I would definitely not be happy with that set up. Kids also need both of their parents around. My dad rarely traveled and even then it was tough on myself and my siblings. I still highly suggest looking for a new job where you don't have to travel so much. There are plenty of ways to make it work on a lower income.


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## brooklynAnn

This wife is EXHAUSTED. She is a single mum during the week. On the weekends when H is home, she is trying to do everything, so that she does not have to do it during the week alone. 

Mums out there you remember how difficult it was to take the kids grocery shopping with you. The fighting, the crying, chasing after one or the other. The kids picking up stuff you don't want them to eat. It is exhausting. Then you come home, kids are tired and hungry and you have groceries to sort and pack. I can understand why she does it by herself when her husband is home. It's quicker and easier on her.

Then, the whole PTO thing. My God, the schools always needs you for this or that. Then, you have to take the smaller ones with you. You made commitments you should not have. But some how got roped into it. She is being pulled all over the place. Oh yes, she can say no. But we mums always feel bad when you have not done enough to help your kids get a better education. 

At home, the little ones are all over her. She is the only one there during the week for their every wants and needs. Then, she has housework, laundry, cooking and homework. I am getting exhausted thinking of all those things she has to do.

Daddy, she needs help. Your being involved on the weekends is not cutting it. On the weekend you guys have to create some time together. Just you two. Hire a sitter, dinner, dance, hotel room. Whatever it takes. 

She is lonely. Tired. Resents you for leaving her all alone. You get to go outside and have all this freedom(in her eyes). You meet adults, you have conversations. Convos that does not have to do with children. You have no responsibilities. You are the visiting dad. Your being home, just adds more work for her. You want sex and touchy feelly stuff. 

When all she wants is some peace and quite. No demands. No mummy, mummy. No, honey, you want some loving up?

You are not a bad man for having to work and provide for your family. You are a great provider and great care taker of your family. She appreciates all your handwork that you do to provide for her and the kids.

Your marriage needs more that a provider. Your wife needs the support of her husband and lover. You guys sit down and have a long talk about how to fix this. Be prepared for her being angry at you. She just need some help and you being around. Make it safe so that she can tell you how she feels, without you getting upset. Hear her out. Good luck.


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## LongWalk

Be an active listener.

Text her while on the road, demonstrating interest in life with the kids.

Don't initiate sex. At the same time make certain that you don't give off a sulky or needy vibe. 

To achieve that you must find inner contentment that is not dependent on anyone else.

Plan surprises for the weekends. Have a babysitter set up so that you can take her to do new things.

Maybe she wants to get in shape? Can you run together? Go kayaking?


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## SecondTime'Round

brooklynAnn said:


> This wife is EXHAUSTED. She is a single mum during the week. On the weekends when H is home, she is trying to do everything, so that she does not have to do it during the week alone.
> 
> Mums out there you remember how difficult it was to take the kids grocery shopping with you. The fighting, the crying, chasing after one or the other. The kids picking up stuff you don't want them to eat. It is exhausting. Then you come home, kids are tired and hungry and you have groceries to sort and pack. I can understand why she does it by herself when her husband is home. It's quicker and easier on her.
> 
> Then, the whole PTO thing. My God, the schools always needs you for this or that. Then, you have to take the smaller ones with you. You made commitments you should not have. But some how got roped into it. She is being pulled all over the place. Oh yes, she can say no. But we mums always feel bad when you have not done enough to help your kids get a better education.
> 
> At home, the little ones are all over her. She is the only one there during the week for their every wants and needs. Then, she has housework, laundry, cooking and homework. I am getting exhausted thinking of all those things she has to do.
> 
> Daddy, she needs help. Your being involved on the weekends is not cutting it. On the weekend you guys have to create some time together. Just you two. Hire a sitter, dinner, dance, hotel room. Whatever it takes.
> 
> She is lonely. Tired. Resents you for leaving her all alone. You get to go outside and have all this freedom(in her eyes). You meet adults, you have conversations. Convos that does not have to do with children. You have no responsibilities. You are the visiting dad. Your being home, just adds more work for her. You want sex and touchy feelly stuff.
> 
> When all she wants is some peace and quite. No demands. No mummy, mummy. No, honey, you want some loving up?
> 
> You are not a bad man for having to work and provide for your family. You are a great provider and great care taker of your family. She appreciates all your handwork that you do to provide for her and the kids.
> 
> Your marriage needs more that a provider. Your wife needs the support of her husband and lover. You guys sit down and have a long talk about how to fix this. Be prepared for her being angry at you. She just need some help and you being around. Make it safe so that she can tell you how she feels, without you getting upset. Hear her out. Good luck.


I agree with all of this, but I believe OP actually said she takes the kids on errands with her on the weekends when he's home (which makes no sense to me at all).


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## Cynthia

SecondTime'Round said:


> I agree with all of this, but I believe OP actually said she takes the kids on errands with her on the weekends when he's home (which makes no sense to me at all).


It makes sense to me. If she sees herself as their caregiver and him as a weekend visitor, she would automatically take them with her, especially if he doesn't have a close relationship with the kids. How would he? He is gone all week, then shows up on the weekends and she is still doing all the caregiving. It's a vicious circle that needs to be broken. Being gone all the time is hard on a family. I'm not saying it's the op's fault. This is what happens when someone travels most of the time.


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## lifeistooshort

CynthiaDe said:


> It makes sense to me. If she sees herself as their caregiver and him as a weekend visitor, she would automatically take them with her, especially if he doesn't have a close relationship with the kids. How would he? He is gone all week, then shows up on the weekends and she is still doing all the caregiving. It's a vicious circle that needs to be broken. Being gone all the time is hard on a family. I'm not saying it's the op's fault. This is what happens when someone travels most of the time.


I agree. He's not an integral part of the family unit, he's just some guy who pays bills and shows up on weekends wanting sex. That is the core issue in this marriage. 

You can't have a marriage where you're separated most of the time. How often are people here told that they can't heal a marriage while separated? These two are basically separated. He needs to be home, even if it means less money or a part time job for her. Might be good for her to get out among adults anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

So if the guy gets a local lower paying job he's a bum for not making more but if he wants better for his family and travels he's an a$$ because he's not pulling his weight at home?

Makes perfect sense. 

That explains the threads about men not marrying etc.

Whose idea was to have 3 kids back to back? 100% the man's? 100% the woman's? Joint?


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## Cynthia

john117 said:


> So if the guy gets a local lower paying job he's a bum for not making more but if he wants better for his family and travels he's an a$$ because he's not pulling his weight at home?
> 
> Makes perfect sense.
> 
> That explains the threads about men not marrying etc.
> 
> Whose idea was to have 3 kids back to back? 100% the man's? 100% the woman's? Joint?


It's a difficult situation, but there are things that can be done to make it better than it is right now. My husband used to be out of town 3/4 of he time. We have 3 children. I was home with them all day and homeschooled them as well, so there was no break for me unless I consciously made it happen.
I made sure to get out of the house and spend time with other moms with small children or have them over to our house. We went on educational field trips. I made sure my needs were being met along with the rest of the family.
My husband has always been very involved with the children. He made sure to engage with them and connect with them when he was home. That helped a lot.
It wasn't an option for my husband to quit his job and find something different, but eventually his job changed and now he doesn't travel as much as he did. I really appreciate the hard work that my husband does to support our family financially and have always tried to be supportive of that while also keeping in mind that I cannot be everything to everyone without having my needs met as well. Many women fall into the trap of becoming a servant without taking into account their own needs. That can lead to disaster for the family. Husband and wife should work together to make sure their family is functioning as a connected family.


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## lifeistooshort

Don't recall anyone suggesting he'd be a bum if he took a lower paying job so be could be home. 

That's you projecting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia

Our family regularly traveled with my husband. During the non-peak travel season, he was able to get a suite so we could all stay together. I would bring a cooler and make our meals. The kids each had a box with their school work and we would do schooling during the day. When they were finished, they could play in the pool. They would play until their dad got in from work, then we would have family time. Those are some fun memories. We were blessed to be a homeschooling family, so we could take off during the week and not miss any educational time. This made a big difference in keeping us connected as a family.


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## john117

lifeistooshort said:


> Don't recall anyone suggesting he'd be a bum if he took a lower paying job so be could be home.
> 
> 
> 
> That's you projecting.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Lolz. 

I turned down opportunities for much higher salaries not because I wanted to be a Nice Husband and take the girls to piano class but because as a card carrying Western European born and raised guy I refuse to work > 40 hours a week... No projections. 

Having said this, there are ways around it all. The wife can move to the new city for example. Or use preschool and work part time.

The current wisdom is that the man should support the family as best as he can. If that means work in another city for a while so be it. Unless the kids are 1, 2, and 3 it's not too hard. I had kids 1 and 3 and worked part time and was a phd student full time, as was my wife. Since my area of study was "easier" than my wife's I did most of the child rearing duties along with part time child care. 

Is it easy? No. But dealing with a 2 year old is peanuts compared to dealing with a teenager.


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## tom67

john117 said:


> So if the guy gets a local lower paying job he's a bum for not making more but if he wants better for his family and travels he's an a$$ because he's not pulling his weight at home?
> 
> Makes perfect sense.
> 
> That explains the threads about men not marrying etc.
> 
> Whose idea was to have 3 kids back to back? 100% the man's? 100% the woman's? Joint?


john117 has just taken the "red pill":grin2:
It's always the males fault.
The disposable male that is.
But I digress...
Conan is right also this m is in trouble.


----------



## john117

It's not ANYONE'S fault. I'm sorry we are not in Europe to get a year of paternity leave paid  but stuff happens. If said wife is stewing because she's stuck at home all she has to think is how little time she will have for stewing if she's a single mom.

The world is not ideal. Stuff happens. It's how you deal with it that matters. Their situation is hopefully short term. If the kids are in college by the time he gets around to look for a job near by yea, it's his fault but in general no. 

The place I live isn't the best but it's got a lot of jobs. I've been in the same company for 30+ years while my wife has changed a dozen jobs. That's how it is. If you like to live in the prairie and enjoy nature etc jobs may not be there. It's a risk.


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## lifeistooshort

We all make sacrifices to balance work and family. My hb could probably make a lot more money if he took a traveling job but it would damage our marriage so he didn't. We work it out together. 

If OP has addressed what they've done to try be able to be together more, like moving/rebudgeting for a closer job/wife getting a part time job to compensate for him being closer I've missed it. But I do know that the current situation is not working. .... he came on claiming that he's not getting the sex he wants, like that's the only issue.

You can't have everything, so if he's willing to accept that he's got a detached wife so he can make more money that's his decision. Nowhere has he said that she demands he keep this job for the money, unless I've missed that too. 

If you're gone a lot you're not going to have a close bond with your spouse. It is what it is, it's a known issue in military communities of which I am a veteran. 

As for whose fault it is? It really doesn't matter because he's the one asking for advice, not her, so many of is us are telling him that the distance isn't working.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ZDog377

lifeistooshort said:


> We all make sacrifices to balance work and family. My hb could probably make a lot more money if he took a traveling job but it would damage our marriage so he didn't. We work it out together.
> 
> If OP has addressed what they've done to try be able to be together more, like moving/rebudgeting for a closer job/wife getting a part time job to compensate for him being closer I've missed it. But I do know that the current situation is not working. .... he came on claiming that he's not getting the sex he wants, like that's the only issue.
> 
> You can't have everything, so if he's willing to accept that he's got a detached wife so he can make more money that's his decision. Nowhere has he said that she demands he keep this job for the money, unless I've missed that too.
> 
> If you're gone a lot you're not going to have a close bond with your spouse. It is what it is, it's a known issue in military communities of which I am a veteran.
> 
> As for whose fault it is? It really doesn't matter because he's the one asking for advice, not her, so many of is us are telling him that the distance isn't working.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry on the confusion. I should say I'm more concerned with the lack of intimacy. There is the holding hands, but not much else like the kissing and things like that.


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## ZDog377

john117 said:


> Lolz.
> 
> I turned down opportunities for much higher salaries not because I wanted to be a Nice Husband and take the girls to piano class but because as a card carrying Western European born and raised guy I refuse to work > 40 hours a week... No projections.
> 
> Having said this, there are ways around it all. The wife can move to the new city for example. Or use preschool and work part time.
> 
> The current wisdom is that the man should support the family as best as he can. If that means work in another city for a while so be it. Unless the kids are 1, 2, and 3 it's not too hard. I had kids 1 and 3 and worked part time and was a phd student full time, as was my wife. Since my area of study was "easier" than my wife's I did most of the child rearing duties along with part time child care.
> 
> Is it easy? No. But dealing with a 2 year old is peanuts compared to dealing with a teenager.


There isn't really a move to the other city option. I'm in a different city every week. She has come with me a few times because the flight is free. She would use a daycare/work combo, but daycare is not cheap and right now we like the flexibility of her being home if one of the kids are sick or have a school function.


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## Mrs.K

My husband doesn't travel for work but he works a lot and has a pretty good commute. Some days there is over time and that means he works both first and second shift. Sometimes both 2nd and 3rd, this happens very often.

From what the OP says I can sense he doesn't enjoy being away from his family. I don't understand why so many people are getting on him about trying to find a new job. Sure money isn't everything but when you have kids and you and your spouse have made the decision to have a parent stay at home and there are sacrifices that need to be made..

Maybe you guys could look into her getting a "mothers helper" as needed. I know I have a neighborhood girl come over and sit with my kids if I need to go to PTA or shop during the week and it would be easier to do so without kids. I also have her come if one of them have an activity so the other 2 don't have to come and be bored.

My husband and I have our issues that we are working on and none of them have to do with his work and have been going on for years, no matter what our issues though I have a deep appreciation of him working so hard to keep me at home with the kids and providing everything we need.


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## ZDog377

We were finally able to have a good half hour talk this weekend. After understanding what she sees as her needs from me, I now have a game plan going forward for what I need to do.


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## LongWalk

If you fill all of her stated needs, what will happen?


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## WorkingOnMe

LongWalk said:


> If you fill all of her stated needs, what will happen?


Nothing of course. I've seen this on here a hundred times. They say they need this or that, it's provided, then the goal post is moved. Expecting anything else is pretty naive.


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## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> We were finally able to have a good half hour talk this weekend. After understanding what she sees as her needs from me, I now have a game plan going forward for what I need to do.


Can you give us more information, so we can understand what happened? What did she have to say?


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## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> Can you give us more information, so we can understand what happened? What did she have to say?


We agreed that things have been a little more crazy due to the third child and she also agreed that we need a date night once a month. She did say that doing things with the kids and helping out around the house were the things that "turned her on" most. She also said that she understands I have to travel for work and appreciates that me working allows her to participate in activities with the kids and stay home with them. I did let her know that I appreciated the physical and emotional things the most. It will definitely be a work in progress.


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## ZDog377

So I've decided to provide an update to how things have been going over the past couple of months. We have been trying to spend more time together, but that has fallen to one of the lower priorities in the relationship. Spare time is filled with taking my oldest to practices or going to his games as a family. He finished playing fall baseball, went into basketball and then got picked to play on the traveling team for basketball. Basketball will go on for another month or so, there will be a small break and then both the my oldest and middle son will start to play baseball. She mentioned that she signed me up to help coach the three year old in t-ball. 

I've brought up the Love Languages again and she laughed when she said one of mine was physical touch. She then added that her and I spending time together isn't at the top of her priority list. I was beyond frustrated at this point and explained that if spending time together didn't become a priority every now and then, we wouldn't be together much longer. 

I've asked her to sit down and have a talk with me on where do we go from here. It's become really frustrating lately because I feel like I am the only one bothered by this. In the morning, we will both agree to talk later on then one of us falls asleep and nothing gets accomplished.


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## farsidejunky

She has shown you how important you are to her.

Yet you still want to talk more?

Talk less, do more.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Lila

@zdog377, any luck finding a job with less travel? Being gone up to 260 days out of the year is not helping the situation. 

I think you mentioned one date night a month. Considering you're potentially home about 8-10 days a month, I think this is good. Is the one date night still an occurrence?


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## ZDog377

Lila said:


> @zdog377, any luck finding a job with less travel? Being gone up to 260 days out of the year is not helping the situation.
> 
> I think you mentioned one date night a month. Considering you're potentially home about 8-10 days a month, I think this is good. Is the one date night still an occurrence?


No luck on a job with less travel. I was home for three weeks straight around Christmas. Since one of her love languages is acts of service, I took care of laundry those three weeks. I would carry the dirty down, wash it, and bring it back up for her to fold. I would have folded too, but I've been told I don't fold right. I helped out as much as I could those three weeks with other things too. Didn't seem to make a bit of difference. 

The one date night a month is hit or miss. Sometimes we will have the neighbor girl come over once the older two are in bed and we go to Walmart together or something like that. I can't think of the last time we actually went to a dinner by ourselves.


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## Marc878

I worked a huge amount of hours so my wife could be a SAHM. It was appreciated.

Tell her to get out and work for a living and you can take a lower paying job and be home all the time. 

I bet that wouldn't fly either. It sounds to me like there isn't much you can do here.

It's all about her and you don't matter much. You're just a paycheck.


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## wmn1

ConanHub said:


> She could be shopping and getting home improvement items when you aren't there. I understand your son wanting time with you.
> 
> For her to arrange errands the only days you are home is bad.
> 
> Your marriage is in pretty bad shape and you are in danger of having a WAW or a cheating one.
> 
> Something needs work yesterday. Often times men are the last to realize their marriage is over. Yours is probably close.
> 
> Reconnect with your wife. Your kids are important but your relationship with your wife is more so.
> 
> Make her a priority. Get that book and read it with her.
> 
> I bet her love languages are quality time and maybe acts of service.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I agree with you Conan. 

I find it disappointing that some here attack Zdog for being away so much. It's called 'work'. I have friends and family who are constantly gone for work and they maintain their relationships as well as can be expected.

My theory is this, if your stay at home spouse likes the $$ and success, then they need to accept the fact that their working spouse is gone a lot and need to suck it up and make the most or best use of their time with that person, not reject them. If they want them around more, enocourage them to get another job closer although the job market stinks and I am unsure how Mrs. Zdog would react if he took a job making only half as much as he does now just to come home ? She could flip her lid then.

If I got married to Simona Halep, Women's Tennis player, and I enjoyed the yacht, the new cars, and the financial security, I would be a freaking hypocrite to blame her for being gone for so long. I knew what I was marrying when I got into the relationship and I had input on her taking the job when she considered it, then that's on me.

What his wife is doing and how she is acting is on her.

I hate when someone steps out and cheats in situations like these because it is the ultimate in cake eating to me. She agreed to handle the kids while he works, she needs to svck it up and do that and cherish the time with him.

I agree Conan, this smells like the potential for a WW or cheating one or simply one who is burning out on tgaking care of the kids. It's not like the guy can quit his job, he may have some detective work to do. His wife needs to come clean with her feelings. 

Zdog has no home. He is on the road for 5 days , then comes home to a chilly reception and now he's not 'a priority'. Not what I would call a good present for someone who makes the sacrifice he does. She makes sacrifices too but being the way she is is not reasonable.

He needs to find out what's going on and as you said Conan, like yesterday. He said they talked and he figured out her 'needs' (I hate that word btw). He has been trying and she hasn't changed. 

So what are your thoughts and plans Zdog ?


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## wmn1

john117 said:


> So if the guy gets a local lower paying job he's a bum for not making more but if he wants better for his family and travels he's an a$$ because he's not pulling his weight at home?
> 
> Makes perfect sense.
> 
> That explains the threads about men not marrying etc.
> 
> Whose idea was to have 3 kids back to back? 100% the man's? 100% the woman's? Joint?



this !!!


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## Happilymarried25

You told your wife if this keeps up you won't be together much longer? That sounds like a teenager talking not a husband and Dad of 3. This situation is on both of you. You both decided to have 3 children. You aren't home most of the time. She is stressed out and is a single parent most of the time. I don't think your situation will improve until you are home more. She is probably resentful and isn't emotionally connected to you which is hard when you aren't there.


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## RoseAglow

OP, I am sorry to read your update. 

I also work in a field that requires a lot of travel. I have moved up the chain so my travel is much more limited, only a few times per year and most of it is local. But, my direct reports are on the road Monday-Thurs/Fri and sometimes leave on Sundays. 

The single young men and women usually do really well in the job. Young couples with no kids do ok sometimes- better when both are in traveling jobs.

There are some couples and families who do well when one spouse travels for work; the other is usually an At-Home parent. For whatever reason, they are both in complete agreement and support each other. 

There are many, many couples and families who want to make it work, but it doesn't work. The unit falls apart. The at-home and the kids are the integrated family. The worker is an outsider, a benevolent supporter, and that's about it. 

Not to be Captain Obvious, but it is clearly not working for your family. I agree with @lifeistooshort, you started off the thread saying that your marriage was awesome except for it being sexless. Many posters pointed out that your wife is drowning. It is not an awesome marriage for her. You are the benevolent supporter. She doesn't need you during the week- she might be barely treading water but she's doing it on her own-and she's not all that interested in you when you're home. 

I would be surprised at this point if she agreed to having you home. It's probably more emotionally comfortable for her when you're away. I still think you need to talk with her, talk some more, until she agrees to it. Your marriage is at very high risk, you both are vulnerable to making very bad decisions due to unmet needs and 80%+ of your time is spent apart. 

If you two get divorced, not much changes for her. She still will be the one doing everything. She is probably not very afraid of being a single parent, she is one most of the time as is. 

You will not be able to get much custody if you are on the road Mon-Thurs, you'll be paying a lot of child support. Yes, she'll have to get a job, and put the kids in child care. Guess what- her life will probably be a lot easier, actually. She'll even get some weekends totally kid-free. 

If you get divorced and hope to see your kids more than every other weekend, you will need to quit your job so that you are available during the week. 

It would make more sense for you to quit the job now. You are going to take a financial hit one way or the other, better to do it now and take the chance to save your marriage. 

I don't think either of you are to blame. Try not to take things personally. The traveling work is a situation that your family tried, but it didn't work. It doesn't work for the majority of people. Just see it for what it is, adjust accordingly before things are irreparable.


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## Marc878

Happilymarried25 said:


> You told your wife if this keeps up you won't be together much longer? That sounds like a teenager talking not a husband and Dad of 3. This situation is on both of you. You both decided to have 3 children. You aren't home most of the time. She is stressed out and is a single parent most of the time. I don't think your situation will improve until you are home more. She is probably resentful and isn't emotionally connected to you which is hard when you aren't there.


Most single mothers work a job. How often do you see SAHM's these days????

She wants him home more then she needs to get a job and pull her end.

Sounds like she's somewhat of a cake eater.


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## RoseAglow

She's not a cake-eater. She is reacting the same way that most humans react when they spend fewer than 15 waking hours a week with their romantic partner, and little to none of that is 1:1 time. Most people fall out of love.

It happens when men are the at-homes, too. I just was counseling one of my newbies about it- she said her husband hated this job, that he felt like they were roommates. I had the same advice for her, as sad as I was to give it. Many marriages don't survive it.


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## Marc878

RoseAglow said:


> She's not a cake-eater. She is reacting the same way that most humans react when they spend fewer than 15 waking hours a week with their romantic partner, and little to none of that is 1:1 time. Most people fall out of love.
> 
> It happens when men are the at-homes, too. I just was counseling one of my newbies about it- she said her husband hated this job, that he felt like they were roommates. I had the same advice for her, as sad as I was to give it. Many marriages don't survive it.


From the postings she doesn't seem to be putting much effort into helping correct the situation though does she?

If there are problems in a marriage it takes two to fix them.


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## mary35

I am going to play devils advocate here, just to point out another side. But first let me say I agree that the wife is in a tough position and is basically raising the children herself. I also think she probably has some resentment issues. BUT, she is creating some of her own problems with the choices SHE is making.

There are two adults here making the decisions for their family. The wife bears some responsibility for how their life is. And she has a lot of decisions and choices she could be making differently to make things better for both herself and her husband. 

The main bad choice that she has clearly made, that if she wanted to, she could change and would improve their relationship immediately is that she has prioritized her marriage below being a mother. She is in mother mode all the time, even when her husband is around. This is a CHOICE she is making. Even in his attempt to make things better, she is not cooperating. Again, this is a choice she is making. She is choosing to fill up what little time he is there with children and house activities. And none for husband wife activities. Again, her choice.

This situation is not all on the husband. But she is not here, he is. And he can't make her do anything. There is a good possibility that even if the husband quits traveling this will continue. I have seen it over and over again where the wife (and/or husband) switch to parenting mode when they have kids and never switch out to work on the man/woman relationship. This is ALWAYS a huge mistake which damages the husband/wife relationship severely.

There are two sides to this coin and both the OP and his wife needs to make some different choices to fix their husband/wife relationship. One can not fix it alone. Their biggest choice that they BOTH need to change is to STOP prioritizing their relationship below being parents. 

They could and would greatly benefit from making Saturday night their weekly date night. Find a regular babysitter, have it lined up and that time becomes sacred between them. Period, end of discussion. No talk about kids or family stuff, just work on rebuilding the man/woman flirty connection during that sacred time. The could also do Skype dating while he is gone. They could flirt on the phone and send sexy texts. I realize this would all be easier for him, than for her with 3 small kids. But it's doable if she wants to make things better. There are lots of choices they could be making but are not. 

The OP was not being mean when he told his wife if things don't change the relationship will end. He was stating fact. And the fact is their husband/wife relationship is already on the dead end road. They both need to steer it off that path quickly and CHOOSE a better path instead.

I would suggest the OP use the words choice when they sit and talk. Don't point out her bad ones, but talk about what you want and need from your marriage and find out what she wants and needs, and then together talk about what choices you both can and will make differently so that both of you are happy and satisfied not only as parents, but most importantly as a man and a woman who deeply love each other - kids or no kids.


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## Marc878

mary35 said:


> I am going to play devils advocate here, just to point out another side. But first let me say I agree that the wife is in a tough position and is basically raising the children herself. I also think she probably has some resentment issues. BUT, she is creating some of her own problems with the choices SHE is making.
> 
> There are two adults here making the decisions for their family. The wife bears some responsibility for how their life is. And she has a lot of decisions and choices she could be making differently to make things better for both herself and her husband.
> 
> The main bad choice that she has clearly made, that if she wanted to, she could change and would improve their relationship immediately is that she has prioritized her marriage below being a mother. She is in mother mode all the time, even when her husband is around. This is a CHOICE she is making. Even in his attempt to make things better, she is not cooperating. Again, this is a choice she is making. She is choosing to fill up what little time he is there with children and house activities. And none for husband wife activities. Again, her choice.
> 
> This situation is not all on the husband. But she is not here, he is. And he can't make her do anything. There is a good possibility that even if the husband quits traveling this will continue. I have seen it over and over again where the wife (and/or husband) switch to parenting mode when they have kids and never switch out to work on the man/woman relationship. This is ALWAYS a huge mistake which damages the husband/wife relationship severely.
> 
> There are two sides to this coin and both the OP and his wife needs to make some different choices to fix their husband/wife relationship. One can not fix it alone. Their biggest choice that they BOTH need to change is to STOP prioritizing their relationship below being parents.
> 
> They could and would greatly benefit from making Saturday night their weekly date night. Find a regular babysitter, have it lined up and that time becomes sacred between them. Period, end of discussion. No talk about kids or family stuff, just work on rebuilding the man/woman flirty connection during that sacred time. The could also do Skype dating while he is gone. They could flirt on the phone and send sexy texts. I realize this would all be easier for him, than for her with 3 small kids. But it's doable if she wants to make things better. There are lots of choices they could be making but are not.
> 
> The OP was not being mean when he told his wife if things don't change the relationship will end. He was stating fact. And the fact is their husband/wife relationship is already on the dead end road. They both need to steer it off that path quickly and CHOOSE a better path instead.
> 
> I would suggest the OP use the words choice when they sit and talk. Don't point out her bad ones, but talk about what you want and need from your marriage and find out what she wants and needs, and then together talk about what choices you both can and will make differently so that both of you are happy and satisfied not only as parents, but most importantly as a man and a woman who deeply love each other - kids or no kids.


Excellent post. I've seen way to many times it's all about the kids. It's a family and the husband and wife count too.

It's not the hand you're dealt necessarily but how you play it. 

I was the only breadwinner but also had a taste of staying home for a short time while the wife had to work and respect both sides.

There can't be a me, me , me in a good marriage but there has to be an us. It takes two. Staying in mommy mode 100% of the time and becoming a martyr will end the marriage.


----------



## Lila

ZDog377 said:


> No luck on a job with less travel. I was home for three weeks straight around Christmas. Since one of her love languages is acts of service, I took care of laundry those three weeks. I would carry the dirty down, wash it, and bring it back up for her to fold. I would have folded too, but I've been told I don't fold right. I helped out as much as I could those three weeks with other things too. Didn't seem to make a bit of difference.
> 
> The one date night a month is hit or miss. Sometimes we will have the neighbor girl come over once the older two are in bed and we go to Walmart together or something like that. I can't think of the last time we actually went to a dinner by ourselves.


Well dang, sorry to hear that the job search isn't panning out. I wouldn't give up that front just yet. Keep looking. 

In the meantime, I would definitely heed @roseaglow post. It sucks but she's right. The only option that gives you a chance to improve your marriage is if you find a job that keeps you home. You and your wife have to decide if the potential loss in salary is worth it. I do think that if you choose this route that you present it to your wife as you _wanting_ to be home for the sake of the marriage and the family unit. In other words, you love your family enough to make the sacrifice. It's worth it to you if it means being home everyday.


----------



## ZDog377

Marc878 said:


> Excellent post. I've seen way to many times it's all about the kids. It's a family and the husband and wife count too.
> 
> It's not the hand you're dealt necessarily but how you play it.
> 
> I was the only breadwinner but also had a taste of staying home for a short time while the wife had to work and respect both sides.
> 
> There can't be a me, me , me in a good marriage but there has to be an us. It takes two. Staying in mommy mode 100% of the time and becoming a martyr will end the marriage.


I'll admit that I probably need to tell her more often how much I appreciate what she does. I know it's something I need to work on. I also understand that she needs some time to herself. Our 3 year old goes to pre-school twice a week for two hours. I told her she could send the youngest to day care as well during that time so she could have some time to herself. I know it's not much, but I figured it would help without costing a fortune. She's also mentioned that she wants to go visit her girl friend down in SC for a weekend. I said no problem since I have the frequent flyer points for the flight and hotel so all she would need was spending money. I just asked that she let me know some time in advance so I can request the time off from work. 

I've told her I wanted to sit down and talk so we can come to a compromise on things. I don't believe it should always be her way or my way. She's quick to criticize my job when it doesn't suit her. I'm lucky with it that I have a lot of freedom. I can schedule when things get done and I'm not really questioned on much as long as the job for the week is done. They're also very flexible, when my two youngest were born they asked me how much time I wanted off. 

I agree that she is in mommy mode 100% of the time. Our oldest is not mine, he is from a previous relationship. I have helped raise him since he was about one and a half. His biological father has never seen him and wants nothing to do with him. She is always at the school and involved in things so when something happens with our oldest, she is on the phone with the principal. She for some reason tries to compensate for the issue with his "donor".


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## Marc878

ZDog377 said:


> I'll admit that I probably need to tell her more often how much I appreciate what she does. I know it's something I need to work on. I also understand that she needs some time to herself. Our 3 year old goes to pre-school twice a week for two hours. I told her she could send the youngest to day care as well during that time so she could have some time to herself. I know it's not much, but I figured it would help without costing a fortune. She's also mentioned that she wants to go visit her girl friend down in SC for a weekend. I said no problem since I have the frequent flyer points for the flight and hotel so all she would need was spending money. I just asked that she let me know some time in advance so I can request the time off from work.
> 
> I've told her I wanted to sit down and talk so we can come to a compromise on things. I don't believe it should always be her way or my way. She's quick to criticize my job when it doesn't suit her. I'm lucky with it that I have a lot of freedom. I can schedule when things get done and I'm not really questioned on much as long as the job for the week is done. They're also very flexible, when my two youngest were born they asked me how much time I wanted off.
> 
> I agree that she is in mommy mode 100% of the time. Our oldest is not mine, he is from a previous relationship. I have helped raise him since he was about one and a half. His biological father has never seen him and wants nothing to do with him. She is always at the school and involved in things so when something happens with our oldest, she is on the phone with the principal. She for some reason tries to compensate for the issue with his "donor".


I stayed at home for a period of time due to layoff. It's horrenduos work. It gave me wisdom/insight. When I got my job back I had the wife quit and stay home full time. In order to do that I worked extremely long hours because the bills have to get paid.

However, your wife needs to work with you in order to have a marriage. Kids don't need to be involved in everything. I see this a lot nowadays. Activities are good but you can overdo it.

you could do several things.

Get a job closer to home. She makes up the diff in income like everyone else does nowadays.

You both manage your time so you have alone time/date nights. And stick to it.

This is the thing. Would that be acceptable to her???? 

From reading your posts I suspect not. You can do your part but she also has to do hers.

You take the lead on this and see what happens. No ones going to do it for you.


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## wmn1

Marc878 said:


> From the postings she doesn't seem to be putting much effort into helping correct the situation though does she?
> 
> If there are problems in a marriage it takes two to fix them.


yep agreed Shes putting in little effort. If I was her, I would be putting in a lot of effort. Red flag here


----------



## wmn1

mary35 said:


> I am going to play devils advocate here, just to point out another side. But first let me say I agree that the wife is in a tough position and is basically raising the children herself. I also think she probably has some resentment issues. BUT, she is creating some of her own problems with the choices SHE is making.
> 
> There are two adults here making the decisions for their family. The wife bears some responsibility for how their life is. And she has a lot of decisions and choices she could be making differently to make things better for both herself and her husband.
> 
> The main bad choice that she has clearly made, that if she wanted to, she could change and would improve their relationship immediately is that she has prioritized her marriage below being a mother. She is in mother mode all the time, even when her husband is around. This is a CHOICE she is making. Even in his attempt to make things better, she is not cooperating. Again, this is a choice she is making. She is choosing to fill up what little time he is there with children and house activities. And none for husband wife activities. Again, her choice.
> 
> This situation is not all on the husband. But she is not here, he is. And he can't make her do anything. There is a good possibility that even if the husband quits traveling this will continue. I have seen it over and over again where the wife (and/or husband) switch to parenting mode when they have kids and never switch out to work on the man/woman relationship. This is ALWAYS a huge mistake which damages the husband/wife relationship severely.
> 
> There are two sides to this coin and both the OP and his wife needs to make some different choices to fix their husband/wife relationship. One can not fix it alone. Their biggest choice that they BOTH need to change is to STOP prioritizing their relationship below being parents.
> 
> They could and would greatly benefit from making Saturday night their weekly date night. Find a regular babysitter, have it lined up and that time becomes sacred between them. Period, end of discussion. No talk about kids or family stuff, just work on rebuilding the man/woman flirty connection during that sacred time. The could also do Skype dating while he is gone. They could flirt on the phone and send sexy texts. I realize this would all be easier for him, than for her with 3 small kids. But it's doable if she wants to make things better. There are lots of choices they could be making but are not.
> 
> The OP was not being mean when he told his wife if things don't change the relationship will end. He was stating fact. And the fact is their husband/wife relationship is already on the dead end road. They both need to steer it off that path quickly and CHOOSE a better path instead.
> 
> I would suggest the OP use the words choice when they sit and talk. Don't point out her bad ones, but talk about what you want and need from your marriage and find out what she wants and needs, and then together talk about what choices you both can and will make differently so that both of you are happy and satisfied not only as parents, but most importantly as a man and a woman who deeply love each other - kids or no kids.


agreed !!!


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## lifeistooshort

I agree with RoseAglow. It's very difficult to have a marriage when you're apart so much.....it's the reason so many military marriages fall apart. I saw a ton of it in the army, the cheating while apart is horrendous.

A surprising number of them who stay together open up the marriage.....I have no idea how that works long term but I've seen it done.

There are certain people who can manage these separations but one of the big challenges they face is that while the traveling/deployed/whatever spouse is gone the spouse running the homefront gets used to taking care of everything and basically being single, then when spouse gets home it takes a lot of adjusting to come back together. And that's just for running the home, not the marital relationship, and if you're heading back out again you never really get to establish that bond. So you come home looking for sex but to your wife you're kind of a stranger.

When my hb got laid off last year he explored a couple of traveling jobs and I hit the roof.....I told him I didn't get married to be alone half the time. He realized that if he wanted to stay married he'd better find something local, which he did. Pays a little less but so what? We're together.

It may be that your wife simply can't go back and forth like this.....by all means talk to her but understand that at the end of the day you being gone all the time is likely not going to work. I get that it's not what the guys here want to hear and I think it's a fine thing that you're supporting the family but it's going to come at the expense of the marriage.

So let's say you tell her that you can't go on like this and if things don't change it's over; let's examine who's going to get the better deal.

As Rose already pointed out you're going to pay a ton of alimony and CS and you're going to have a tough time getting much custody when you travel all the time.

Your wife already has to take care of most things so it won't be that much of an adjustment for her. She'll meet another guy who is around, and you'll try to meet another women who you also won't see because you'll still be traveling. Eventually you're going to realize that you can't make anything work out while you're gone all the time so you'll end up getting another job which might pay less but you'll still be on the hook for alimony and CS. True your wife will need to get a job but so what? It's not that big of a deal and she might be happier.....I got a job when I divorced my ex and it was no big deal. I was already taking care of everything (he did very little besides work) and getting a job was frankly better then being home (for me), and he had to pay CS. I didn't even ask for alimony and I was still better off, not much changed except that I didn't have to listen to him b!tch and paw at me. He was also gone for long periods (military) and I was glad when he left because he was a jerk. But part of that could have been that we had no real connection and with him coming and going there was never going to be one. I don't think he was capable of one but we didn't have much of a chance.

So why not take another job now even if it pays less? At least then you'll be around to try to salvage your marriage; you're not going to lose anything because eventually you're going to have to stop traveling, whether you're still married to your wife or not. But if you're divorced your hit will be much bigger.

If your wife complains about less money tell her that you can't have a marriage if you're not together so you'll have to figure out how to manage. If that means she goes to work to help out so be it.

If she really wants you gone that will say a lot about how she views you.


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## wmn1

Marc878 said:


> From the postings she doesn't seem to be putting much effort into helping correct the situation though does she?
> 
> If there are problems in a marriage it takes two to fix them.


I agree Marc. She is a cake eater. Rose said that she's surprised that she allows him home, as though she has a choice ?? It's his house too.

Again, Rose's post puts the blame largely on his shoulders. It's not. Everything that this situation entails is based on agreements they had. Rather than sucking it up and being on point in her role as a wife, she has checked out. That's on her. I agree with you Marc, she is cake eating. 

I am sure many of the responses here would be different if on the other foot. If he came home on the weekends and wanted nothing to do with her while she longed for him all week, he would be getting savagely attacked here.

John117 said it perfectly, how about this, he quits his job and gets one that pays half as much. Zdog's wife now has to go out and get a job to make up for the income loss and they have to put the kids in daycare which hurts their finances even more. Now she will be complaining about the loss of income, time away from the kids and the fact she has to work. But if he keeps his current job, she gets to cold shoulder him to death and treat him like he's a non entity. Zdog is screwed if he does and screwed if he doesn't. 

I also don't like how some say' she does everything' while he's away in hotel beds and away from his kids all week making sacrifices to provide for his family. Both are doing everything as two parents should. To reduce his role in providing for the family is IMHO very wrong.

So I agree with you Marc


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## wmn1

mary35 said:


> I am going to play devils advocate here, just to point out another side. But first let me say I agree that the wife is in a tough position and is basically raising the children herself. I also think she probably has some resentment issues. BUT, she is creating some of her own problems with the choices SHE is making.
> 
> There are two adults here making the decisions for their family. The wife bears some responsibility for how their life is. And she has a lot of decisions and choices she could be making differently to make things better for both herself and her husband.
> 
> The main bad choice that she has clearly made, that if she wanted to, she could change and would improve their relationship immediately is that she has prioritized her marriage below being a mother. She is in mother mode all the time, even when her husband is around. This is a CHOICE she is making. Even in his attempt to make things better, she is not cooperating. Again, this is a choice she is making. She is choosing to fill up what little time he is there with children and house activities. And none for husband wife activities. Again, her choice.
> 
> This situation is not all on the husband. But she is not here, he is. And he can't make her do anything. There is a good possibility that even if the husband quits traveling this will continue. I have seen it over and over again where the wife (and/or husband) switch to parenting mode when they have kids and never switch out to work on the man/woman relationship. This is ALWAYS a huge mistake which damages the husband/wife relationship severely.
> 
> There are two sides to this coin and both the OP and his wife needs to make some different choices to fix their husband/wife relationship. One can not fix it alone. Their biggest choice that they BOTH need to change is to STOP prioritizing their relationship below being parents.
> 
> They could and would greatly benefit from making Saturday night their weekly date night. Find a regular babysitter, have it lined up and that time becomes sacred between them. Period, end of discussion. No talk about kids or family stuff, just work on rebuilding the man/woman flirty connection during that sacred time. The could also do Skype dating while he is gone. They could flirt on the phone and send sexy texts. I realize this would all be easier for him, than for her with 3 small kids. But it's doable if she wants to make things better. There are lots of choices they could be making but are not.
> 
> The OP was not being mean when he told his wife if things don't change the relationship will end. He was stating fact. And the fact is their husband/wife relationship is already on the dead end road. They both need to steer it off that path quickly and CHOOSE a better path instead.
> 
> I would suggest the OP use the words choice when they sit and talk. Don't point out her bad ones, but talk about what you want and need from your marriage and find out what she wants and needs, and then together talk about what choices you both can and will make differently so that both of you are happy and satisfied not only as parents, but most importantly as a man and a woman who deeply love each other - kids or no kids.


I agree Mary35. 100%. Excellent post


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## wmn1

ZDog377 said:


> I'll admit that I probably need to tell her more often how much I appreciate what she does. I know it's something I need to work on. I also understand that she needs some time to herself. Our 3 year old goes to pre-school twice a week for two hours. I told her she could send the youngest to day care as well during that time so she could have some time to herself. I know it's not much, but I figured it would help without costing a fortune. She's also mentioned that she wants to go visit her girl friend down in SC for a weekend. I said no problem since I have the frequent flyer points for the flight and hotel so all she would need was spending money. I just asked that she let me know some time in advance so I can request the time off from work.
> 
> I've told her I wanted to sit down and talk so we can come to a compromise on things. I don't believe it should always be her way or my way. She's quick to criticize my job when it doesn't suit her. I'm lucky with it that I have a lot of freedom. I can schedule when things get done and I'm not really questioned on much as long as the job for the week is done. They're also very flexible, when my two youngest were born they asked me how much time I wanted off.
> 
> I agree that she is in mommy mode 100% of the time. Our oldest is not mine, he is from a previous relationship. I have helped raise him since he was about one and a half. His biological father has never seen him and wants nothing to do with him. She is always at the school and involved in things so when something happens with our oldest, she is on the phone with the principal. She for some reason tries to compensate for the issue with his "donor".


Here's my question Zdog. The first child is not yours but you have accepted fatherly roles for him. Has she ever expressed appreciation to you for this ?

Also do you feel that if you did tell her until she is blue in the face how much you appreciate her, would it make a difference and would she reciprocate ? 

Finally, what does this mean ? 

"She is always at the school and involved in things so when something happens with our oldest, she is on the phone with the principal. She for some reason tries to compensate for the issue with his "donor"." 

I didn't get what you are saying here


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## ZDog377

wmn1 said:


> Here's my question Zdog. The first child is not yours but you have accepted fatherly roles for him. Has she ever expressed appreciation to you for this ?
> 
> Also do you feel that if you did tell her until she is blue in the face how much you appreciate her, would it make a difference and would she reciprocate ?
> 
> Finally, what does this mean ?
> 
> "She is always at the school and involved in things so when something happens with our oldest, she is on the phone with the principal. She for some reason tries to compensate for the issue with his "donor"."
> 
> I didn't get what you are saying here


She's vice president of the PTO at the elementary school. I don't mind it because it gets her out of the house and she gets to see friends and be around people more than three feet tall . I will admit it gets frustrating because there are weekends where "hey, we have to put together 500 fundraiser packets" comes up. 

As far as the compensation issue, even though he believes I am his real father I think she sometimes feels bad that he has never wanted to see him. As far as school goes, if something happens she's emailing the teacher right away or text messaging the principal. Maybe it is just a mother being over protective of her first born, I'm not sure.........

As far as being thanked for taking over fatherly roles........I've never really felt I need to be thanked for that. I guess I've never really thought about it. I've never tried "over thanking" her for what she does, I do know that I need to do it more than I do now. 

Valentine's Day is coming up this weekend, hopefully we get to spend some time together on Sunday. We have a basketball tournament Friday night and Saturday (1 game Friday, 2 on Saturday).


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## anonmd

> As far as the compensation issue, even though he believes I am his real father I think she sometimes feels bad that he has never wanted to see him. As far as school goes, if something happens she's emailing the teacher right away or text messaging the principal. Maybe it is just a mother being over protective of her first born, I'm not sure.........



That just seems like mothering to me, the oldest is the only one in school. She'll do the same as the other two get older.


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## ZDog377

We had a talk today and I mentioned that I was going to be looking for a job at home and asked her where she would get a job. She said she would probably get something working over nights so we could save on day care. She also said that she didn't think I could handle being at home all time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonmd

There is a plan for continuing the no sex current practice.


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## farsidejunky

ZDog377 said:


> We had a talk today and I mentioned that I was going to be looking for a job at home and asked her where she would get a job. She said she would probably get something working over nights so we could save on day care. She also said that she didn't think I could handle being at home all time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So she wants to go from one scenario where y'all never see each other to another.

I would tell her you are not okay with that. I would tell her that any attempt to rearrange careers is contingent upon y'all having more time together. It it does not fit into that prism, I would tell her you will not do it.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## mary35

ZDog377 said:


> We had a talk today and I mentioned that I was going to be looking for a job at home and asked her where she would get a job. She said she would probably get something working over nights so we could save on day care. She also said that she didn't think I could handle being at home all time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How do you feel about this response Zdog?


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## Marc878

ZDog377 said:


> We had a talk today and I mentioned that I was going to be looking for a job at home and asked her where she would get a job. She said she would probably get something working over nights so we could save on day care. She also said that she didn't think I could handle being at home all time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Doesn't seem to happy about it does she????? Pretty negative connotation on it. Correct me if I'm wrong?


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## lifeistooshort

Tell her that you insist that spending time together be a priority, which means no nights. It may take her some time to adjust but thats ok.

We can't have everything and your marriage needs to come first. 

Also tell her that you're sure being home regularly will be an adjustment for you but you'll manage and being there for your family is worth it.

It'll take some time to get used to things but it'll be worth it. Think of it like dating and getting to know each other again 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort

Marc878 said:


> Doesn't seem to happy about it does she????? Pretty negative connotation on it. Correct me if I'm wrong?


Patience. An adjustment period might be required. ...
They are both used to what they have now. 

Even if it ultimately fails he'll know he did what he could and will be in a better position for joint custody and less alimony if she gets a job. 

He has nothing to lose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marc878

I agree.


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## jld

Hi, OP. Rose asked me to take a look at this thread, as my husband has travelled for work/lived away most of the last several years.

I understand where the folks who are telling you you need to be home are coming from. But my experience is that if your head is not in the game, and into meeting her needs while at home, it really does not matter much if you are home or not. Iow, if you are a 4th kid, keep the job you have, as it will be less work for her. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

A big difference between your wife and me is that I have always wanted physical and emotional intimacy when my husband has been home. I don't really understand this once or twice a month sex idea. I have heard that some women get really into their kids and lose interest in their husbands. Could be the case with your wife. She does seem super involved with the kids.

My husband is not one to be resentful if for some reason we do not have it every day he is home. He initiates, and I usually respond. But if I don't, it is no big deal. He just kisses my forehead and we both go to sleep. No resentment.

If you are needy or whiny or pouting or anything like that, stop. That is surely unattractive. Just try to inspire her interest, if possible. No guilting allowed.

Just thinking about this more . . . my husband can be pretty nurturing. And even when he is not nurturing, he is not demanding or needy. So between giving to me, and not taking on a personal level from me, it allows desire to build on my end. The last thing a mom of little ones needs is a husband taking from her.

Do you really like your job? I would hesitate to quit if you really like it, especially if you are unlikely to make as much money at a local job, and if your wife is not in agreement with the change.

Good luck, OP. I hope something in here helps. And remember: kids are not little forever. This too shall pass.


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## ZDog377

I agree with the part about liking the job. I hate to quit because they treat me good and the pay is good as well. 

I will admit she didn't seem thrilled with the idea of me being at home more often. We didn't have an hour long talk about it, it was more of a quick discussion. 

Also, I'm not looking for sex all the time. I've told her that. We had a night probably a month ago that we went to bed early and just laid there looking at funny jokes and stuff on our phones and showing them to each other. It was probably only a half hour, but it was the most fun we have had in a while.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I agree with the part about liking the job. I hate to quit because they treat me good and the pay is good as well.
> 
> I will admit she didn't seem thrilled with the idea of me being at home more often. We didn't have an hour long talk about it, it was more of a quick discussion.
> 
> Also, I'm not looking for sex all the time. I've told her that. We had a night probably a month ago that we went to bed early and just laid there looking at funny jokes and stuff on our phones and showing them to each other. It was probably only a half hour, but it was the most fun we have had in a while.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would not quit the job then. Try to initiate emotional intimacy more often, like with the joke night. That should build some goodwill, bring some ease and comfort into the relationship. 

Any chance you can cut back on some of the activities and just relax at home as a family on the weekends?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort

Jld certainly makes points worth considering and it's definitely worth it to give it a try.


But I think different people have different capacities to deal with a setup like this....jld has capacity to deal with it and Dug handles things well. I don't know to what extent your wife has capacity to deal with it and reconnect with you. It may be that she requires continuity to have a connection.

I know that I'm not capable of dealing with what she does.....I think in many ways she's stronger emotionally then me. That probably comes as a surprise to her 

You probably have little to lose though by giving her ideas a try.


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## Marc878

Hmmmmm she doesn't connect because you're away to much but she doesn't want you home because she'd have to work. No win situation. She's a mommy martyr.

I'll stand by my original statement. She's a CAKE EATER!!!!

Never gonna be happy no matter what you do.


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## Hicks

This is not a problem that can be solved by talking about it.

You need to look at it as your job is to enable the family to function well.

So, how often have you said to your wife "The most important thing we can provide our children is an intact marriage" ?

Rather than talking about spending time together, you tell your wife it's important that you spend time together. You then invite her to do things. She may say yes, she may say no... Sometimes she will say yes. Make her realize that this is good and not bad when she does say yes.

Also, it's dumb to tell her that you are going to quit your job and that means she will have to get a job. What you say is that it's important to spend time together as husband and wife, and you recognize that your job gets in the way of that... You then talk to her about what options to the two of you have.

But, it all starts with her believing that the best thing she can give to her children is a strong family... Not sure a girl who has a baby with a loser though is a person who has that belief system... so this is a big work item for you.


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## ZDog377

Hicks said:


> This is not a problem that can be solved by talking about it.
> 
> You need to look at it as your job is to enable the family to function well.
> 
> So, how often have you said to your wife "The most important thing we can provide our children is an intact marriage" ?
> 
> Rather than talking about spending time together, you tell your wife it's important that you spend time together. You then invite her to do things. She may say yes, she may say no... Sometimes she will say yes. Make her realize that this is good and not bad when she does say yes.
> 
> Also, it's dumb to tell her that you are going to quit your job and that means she will have to get a job. What you say is that it's important to spend time together as husband and wife, and you recognize that your job gets in the way of that... You then talk to her about what options to the two of you have.
> 
> But, it all starts with her believing that the best thing she can give to her children is a strong family... Not sure a girl who has a baby with a loser though is a person who has that belief system... so this is a big work item for you.


We have both said before that it's not fair to the kids to see us fighting all the time. I always try and plan things for us to do, but the kids are busy with things. Like this weekend, I'll probably get home sometime Friday and he has a tournament game in the evening. Then Saturday he has two games. Plus my father in law is coming down for the games. She will ask what I want to do and I'll say it doesn't matter as long as I get to spend time with her. It's never "hey, I've arranged a babysitter and we are going out, be ready at 6". It would be nice to have that once or twice.


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## jld

Could you arrange a sitter?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## naiveonedave

ZDog377 said:


> It's never "hey, I've arranged a babysitter and we are going out, be ready at 6". It would be nice to have that once or twice.


IMO, this is your job, not hers. Or tell her to get a babysitter, you are making plans for Saturday night. You need to lead this cr*p, just like when you were dating. 

As for plans, try to err on the side of stuff she likes, relative to stuff you like if compromise is not easy to find (say she hates movies and you love them, but she likes dancing/drinking and you don't. Do the latter).


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## jld

naiveonedave said:


> IMO, this is your job, not hers. Or tell her to get a babysitter, you are making plans for Saturday night. You need to lead this cr*p, just like when you were dating.
> 
> As for plans, try to err on the side of stuff she likes, relative to stuff you like if compromise is not easy to find (say she hates movies and you love them, but she likes dancing/drinking and you don't. Do the latter).


Yes, the idea is to woo her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## naiveonedave

jld said:


> Yes, the idea is to woo her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. "wooing" doesn't stop on your wedding day. Many men forget this fact at their own peril.


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## ZDog377

naiveonedave said:


> I agree. "wooing" doesn't stop on your wedding day. Many men forget this fact at their own peril.


I've said numerous times for her to get a sitter, let's do something this weekend. We only have two baby sitters that we use, the is away at college and the other one has a second job that she works. I have been pressuring her to find another baby sitter these past couple days because that always seems like the excuse. 

I'm going to plan something for this weekend since my father-in-law will be here, it will just have to be after the younger two are in bed.......


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## naiveonedave

ZDog377 said:


> I've said numerous times for her to get a sitter, let's do something this weekend. We only have two baby sitters that we use, the is away at college and the other one has a second job that she works. I have been pressuring her to find another baby sitter these past couple days because that always seems like the excuse.
> 
> I'm going to plan something for this weekend since my father-in-law will be here, it will just have to be after the younger two are in bed.......


find a sitter on your own


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## ZDog377

naiveonedave said:


> find a sitter on your own


Posted an ad looking for a sitter, we will see how this goes.


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## naiveonedave

ZDog377 said:


> Posted an ad looking for a sitter, we will see how this goes.


grandparents, aunts/uncles, swap sitter responsibilities with another couple w/kid(s) are all things I did in the past.


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## Cynthia

Assuming your wife is on Facebook, she could post this need and is likely to get good responses for reliable babysitters.


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## Hicks

You have to arrange the alone time. Not becuase it's fair, but becuase it's more important to you then to her.

But I think if she does not really believe that her marriage is a priority then you can get all the sitters you want and spend all the time you want, it won't solve it.


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## karole

Go to CARE.com to find a sitter in your area.


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## hazel55

Maybe I can add a little different point of view....

You are gone all week and only home on weekends, correct? She is used to being completely independent. She cannot rely on you to help out with the kids. She had gradually lost her connection with you. I haven't read the whole thread but you threw out the I'll quit and then she said she would work... Self-protection....

It has been a month since we had sex... He mentioned being interested Friday... I was sick, sort of... I made it worse than it really was and hid from him all weekend on the excuse that I felt bad. I don't know how to get close... How do I let him in?? He will only abandon me again... I will start to hope that it will be different, that I can give him my heart... then he will be gone again. ( That is me not your wife.)

I would definitely feel this way if I only saw you on weekends... How do I let myself get close? How do I break down those walls, even a little bit and then you are gone again. I have to take care of myself, protect myself at all costs... If I admit I need you, then I would no longer be able to cope during the week. It is just easier to pretend not to care.

Just a few thoughts about how your wife may be feeling.


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## RoseAglow

ZDog, its entirely predictable that your wife was going to push back at the idea of you now returning home- please try to not take it personally. I noted it in an earlier post- as hard as it is for her when you're not there, it's probably easier emotionally for her to be in her own. This is how it goes sometimes.

I agree with the other posters that your current lifestyle could work if your wife were truly on-board and willing to work as a team. I'll bet if you were to ask her, she would say that she IS on-board and IS a team player. I'll bet she feels like she is holding up her end if the deal (and then some!) 

For the couples who don't survive a traveling job, the spouses develop independent lives when they are apart. Your wife has a life almost completely separate from you, the vast majority of her waking hours. It's hard, but she has it worked out. This is why I think that it's less comfortable for her when you're there. 

The couples who make it work are able to stay connected. I am glad @jld came on to give some of her thoughts (thanks jld!) 

It is very clear that your wife has emotionally detached from you. She isn't interested in spending time with you, even for her "time off" (going to SC). She is probably one of the people who need to be around their partner in order to feel connected. Skype is not a workable solution for people like this- and IMO, that's the majority of people. She is still getting up every morning and she is responsible for everything except making money. She is the immediate problem-solver, the daily architect, the person who does all the hands-on care and all that entails on a day-to-day basis. She is on her own. 

She has found a way to do her job, to pull her weight, without you at home. She can't rely on you to help her simply because you're not there. So she doesn't rely on you. But that means, she doesn't rely on you, you see? She can't afford to need you, simply because you're not home. But this means, she doesn't need you. She has her own independent life, which she can handle just fine on her own. You make the money, she does everything else. You do your part, she does hers, but you do them independently. She has closed herself off from you.

Skype and phone calls don't help the spouse who wakes up and goes to bed alone, who lacks daily hugs, kisses, intimate conversation in the kitchen, who can cover the kids for a moment while s/he takes a shower, runs out for an errand, etc. This is the "daily bread" so to speak that nourishes most marriages. Emotional needs can be met on a daily basis when both people are home.

It is true of course that she might have closed herself off to you even if you had always worked at home. But I am not sure that's at all relevant. You're here now, and the fact is that a sh!t-ton of couples end up where you are, when one spouse travels very heavily for work. 

I don't think that it's your fault that your marriage is at a low point. I think you both went forward thinking that it was the best path for your family. 

My recommendation, for what it's worth, is to go do some reading here, about the three states of marriage: Three States of Mind in Marriage

From your posts, it looks to me like your wife is in withdrawal. This is a dangerous place, because there is low or no conflict going on when one of the spouses are in withdrawal. They've just given up on being able to rely on their partner emotionally. They start getting fiesty again when their partner starts to meet emotional needs- it drags the withdrawn one into conflict. The withdrawn spouse will fight back, s/he is angry that the other spouse is screwing with their "safe" withdrawn status (and says things like, "you can't handle these kids! You can come home, but I'm getting a night shift job. And btw I'm using your air points so I can get my down time without you in it!") But, it is very, very difficult to resist getting ones emotional needs met. This is the conflict- anger, but reluctantly, eventually, they go with it and then, they find themselves back into intimacy. 

If you can get your wife back into intimacy while you maintain your travel job, then you will have solved your problem and kudos! Please share it, because I'd love to have the knowledge to share with the people who struggle with the same problem in my work. But I think your best bet is to get home. I thinks it's the best thing for your marriage, and pragmatically speaking, it's probably best if you divorce. You'd be a able to get meaningful custody and your wife would already be working. You can always find a traveling job, it's there if you wanted to go back. Can't say the same for your marriage though.


----------



## mary35

ZDog is your wife a perfectionist? When you do things to help out or when you take care of the kids is she critical of the way you do things? I am asking because you said you helped with the laundry but you are not allowed to fold the clothes cause you do it wrong. Also you sound a leary of making plans for the weekend, and rely on your wife to do it.

Another common thread I see in too many marriages. One spouse doesn't do things the "right" way, according to the other spouse, and gets criticized for doing things "wrong". It does not take long for the spouse who gets criticized to stop trying to do things. Then they get accused if not helping or carrying their load. It sounds kind of like your wife likes to have control over things and pretty much wants to tell you what to do and how to do it

Is this an issue in your marriage? If you line up a sitter and plan a date - will your wife go and have a good time, or will she whine and or complain about it?


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## Marc878

It takes two in a marriage to resolve issues. One person working their side won't fix this.


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## wmn1

ZDog377 said:


> We had a talk today and I mentioned that I was going to be looking for a job at home and asked her where she would get a job. She said she would probably get something working over nights so we could save on day care. She also said that she didn't think I could handle being at home all time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is this not a red flag to you Zdog ? 

Either she's completely checked out or she has another man lurking in the picture. Get into detective mode. She is neither acting competently or respectfully at this point.


I am sure I will get some criticism for insinuating possible infidelity but I don't care. In your case, you MUST look into all possible scenarios for her behavior. Not everything is infidelity but not everything is not. It could also be that she has checked out. My concern wouldn't be the 'checking out' as much as why she isn't 'checking back in' with the Dad of the children and the owner of your joint venture and a guy who works hard to support his family. 

And do not accept for one second that you must act unilaterally here either. Marc is right, it takes two to tango. You can make the effort to fix it but it won't work if she doesn't care.


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## Marc878

Financial facts.

Alimony is not normally permanent.

Child support will be for your children only not hers from a previous marriage unless you adopted.

She will have to work outside the home.

Both of your standards of living will drop.


----------



## mary35

RoseAglow said:


> ZDog, its entirely predictable that your wife was going to push back at the idea of you now returning home- please try to not take it personally. I noted it in an earlier post- as hard as it is for her when you're not there, it's probably easier emotionally for her to be in her own. This is how it goes sometimes.
> 
> I agree with the other posters that your current lifestyle could work if your wife were truly on-board and willing to work as a team. I'll bet if you were to ask her, she would say that she IS on-board and IS a team player. I'll bet she feels like she is holding up her end if the deal (and then some!)
> 
> For the couples who don't survive a traveling job, the spouses develop independent lives when they are apart. Your wife has a life almost completely separate from you, the vast majority of her waking hours. It's hard, but she has it worked out. This is why I think that it's less comfortable for her when you're there.
> 
> The couples who make it work are able to stay connected. I am glad @jld came on to give some of her thoughts (thanks jld!)
> 
> It is very clear that your wife has emotionally detached from you. She isn't interested in spending time with you, even for her "time off" (going to SC). She is probably one of the people who need to be around their partner in order to feel connected. Skype is not a workable solution for people like this- and IMO, that's the majority of people. She is still getting up every morning and she is responsible for everything except making money. She is the immediate problem-solver, the daily architect, the person who does all the hands-on care and all that entails on a day-to-day basis. She is on her own.
> 
> She has found a way to do her job, to pull her weight, without you at home. She can't rely on you to help her simply because you're not there. So she doesn't rely on you. But that means, she doesn't rely on you, you see? She can't afford to need you, simply because you're not home. But this means, she doesn't need you. She has her own independent life, which she can handle just fine on her own. You make the money, she does everything else. You do your part, she does hers, but you do them independently. She has closed herself off from you.
> 
> Skype and phone calls don't help the spouse who wakes up and goes to bed alone, who lacks daily hugs, kisses, intimate conversation in the kitchen, who can cover the kids for a moment while s/he takes a shower, runs out for an errand, etc. This is the "daily bread" so to speak that nourishes most marriages. Emotional needs can be met on a daily basis when both people are home.
> 
> It is true of course that she might have closed herself off to you even if you had always worked at home. But I am not sure that's at all relevant. You're here now, and the fact is that a sh!t-ton of couples end up where you are, when one spouse travels very heavily for work.
> 
> I don't think that it's your fault that your marriage is at a low point. I think you both went forward thinking that it was the best path for your family.
> 
> My recommendation, for what it's worth, is to go do some reading here, about the three states of marriage: Three States of Mind in Marriage
> 
> From your posts, it looks to me like your wife is in withdrawal. This is a dangerous place, because there is low or no conflict going on when one of the spouses are in withdrawal. They've just given up on being able to rely on their partner emotionally. They start getting fiesty again when their partner starts to meet emotional needs- it drags the withdrawn one into conflict. The withdrawn spouse will fight back, s/he is angry that the other spouse is screwing with their "safe" withdrawn status (and says things like, "you can't handle these kids! You can come home, but I'm getting a night shift job. And btw I'm using your air points so I can get my down time without you in it!") But, it is very, very difficult to resist getting ones emotional needs met. This is the conflict- anger, but reluctantly, eventually, they go with it and then, they find themselves back into intimacy.
> 
> If you can get your wife back into intimacy while you maintain your travel job, then you will have solved your problem and kudos! Please share it, because I'd love to have the knowledge to share with the people who struggle with the same problem in my work. But I think your best bet is to get home. I thinks it's the best thing for your marriage, and pragmatically speaking, it's probably best if you divorce. You'd be a able to get meaningful custody and your wife would already be working. You can always find a traveling job, it's there if you wanted to go back. Can't say the same for your marriage though.


I agree with most of this. (although I am not sure what the divorce comment is about). 

I personally think it will be very hard to get your wife to reinvest herself in having a husband/wife relationship. Whatever the reasons she stopped investing (coping mechanism, too painful, resentment issued - whatever), the fact is she does not seem too interested in reconnecting with you right now. That fact is hard to get around cause you can't fix things if she doesn't want it fixed or isn't willing to do her part. She has gotten comfortable with the status quo.

Finding a different job, while it may help, may not be possible or may take some time. And if you do find a new job, it will still take time and a lot of effort to reconnect and that still will take both of you trying. If she is not on board, then no change will happen, no matter what you change.

So where does this leave you Zdog? In my view, it leaves you in a bad marriage unless you can get your wife on board to make some changes and to make an effort to reconnect. Keep trying, it may just be a matter of you having lots of patience and to be willing to accept what she can give you for awhile, or it may take some drastic measures on your part to make her see she may lose the marriage if she doesn't work on fixing it. That should be your last resort though, IMO.

You may want to look into marriage counseling. Look for a counselor that has worked with a lot of couples dealing with long distance relationships, to see if you can get some professional help with finding ways to reconnect and then staying connected. 

Good Luck! I really hope you and your wife find ways to make your marriage a good one for the both of you.


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## ZDog377

mary35 said:


> I agree with most of this. (although I am not sure what the divorce comment is about).
> 
> I personally think it will be very hard to get your wife to reinvest herself in having a husband/wife relationship. Whatever the reasons she stopped investing (coping mechanism, too painful, resentment issued - whatever), the fact is she does not seem too interested in reconnecting with you right now. That fact is hard to get around cause you can't fix things if she doesn't want it fixed or isn't willing to do her part. She has gotten comfortable with the status quo.
> 
> Finding a different job, while it may help, may not be possible or may take some time. And if you do find a new job, it will still take time and a lot of effort to reconnect and that still will take both of you trying. If she is not on board, then no change will happen, no matter what you change.
> 
> So where does this leave you Zdog? In my view, it leaves you in a bad marriage unless you can get your wife on board to make some changes and to make an effort to reconnect. Keep trying, it may just be a matter of you having lots of patience and to be willing to accept what she can give you for awhile, or it may take some drastic measures on your part to make her see she may lose the marriage if she doesn't work on fixing it. That should be your last resort though, IMO.
> 
> You may want to look into marriage counseling. Look for a counselor that has worked with a lot of couples dealing with long distance relationships, to see if you can get some professional help with finding ways to reconnect and then staying connected.
> 
> Good Luck! I really hope you and your wife find ways to make your marriage a good one for the both of you.


We had a talk again later today. She mentioned that she does went to spend more time together it is that we are usually busy on the weekends. The financial cost is always a concern to . I told her we would work through that part. 

I will admit she is a perfectionist when it comes to the kids. She wants someone that has all their clearances and who knows what els . She did start asking her friends who they would recommend though. I said that we could start small for date nights and have a big one every now and then. 

I did briefly mention the intimacy issue. I've discussed it in another thread that she still feels physically uncomfortable. I said that is something we could work through as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

We never had sitters, tbh. We did everything as a family.

Maybe just stick to small, simple things, like that joke time. No cost, high comfort.


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## naiveonedave

jld said:


> We never had sitters, tbh. We did everything as a family.
> 
> Maybe just stick to small, simple things, like that joke time. No cost, high comfort.


I really think he needs alone time with her. We did a lot like you and I think our M suffered for the lack of alone time.


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## jld

naiveonedave said:


> I really think he needs alone time with her. We did a lot like you and I think our M suffered for the lack of alone time.


Oh, I would have loved alone time. But my husband does not believe in sitters. He says kids need to be with their parents.


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## naiveonedave

jld said:


> Oh, I would have loved alone time. But my husband does not believe in sitters. He says kids need to be with their parents.


Can't say I agree. I really think the 15 hour/week rule bandied about here is spot on. Probably doesn't need to be that much for every couple, but @zero or near zero was very hard on my M, back in the day when the kidz were young.


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## jld

naiveonedave said:


> Can't say I agree. I really think the 15 hour/week rule bandied about here is spot on. Probably doesn't need to be that much for every couple, but @zero or near zero was very hard on my M, back in the day when the kidz were young.


It does sound nice. But it sure did not happen for us.


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## jld

OP, you want to be a source of positive energy for your wife. We all gravitate to what gives us energy.


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## brooklynAnn

naiveonedave said:


> Can't say I agree. I really think the 15 hour/week rule bandied about here is spot on. Probably doesn't need to be that much for every couple, but @zero or near zero was very hard on my M, back in the day when the kidz were young.


We never had date nights when the kids were small. We took our kids with us everywhere. Our daughter decided she wanted us to go on a date when she was bit older..5 or so, we got dressed and was ready to leave. My MIL was going to babysit. When we got to the door, our little man was dressed, his shoes mixed up and he was waiting on us. I ask him where he was going and he replied, "I dating you and going for dinner." We had a laugh and all of us went out instead. So it became our thing. The four of us went out every weekend for a date night. Those dates were fun. My daughter would encourage us to go out afterwards but would always be disappointed that we came back early.

When the kids got older and moved out of our bed around 4 1/2-5 we made sure we spend time together talking. 

We did the whole parenting thing really badly. We let them sleep in our room and moved another bed into the room. Crazy, I would never do that again. My son used to have seizures, so we had to watch him. We took them everywhere with us. When my son became 4 we started traveling overseas to go on vacations, everyone thought we were mad. But we had so much fun. 

The kids kept us together when things got a bit rough. Or maybe they cause the rough spots, who knows.


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## ZDog377

naiveonedave said:


> I really think he needs alone time with her. We did a lot like you and I think our M suffered for the lack of alone time.


I will admit that one of the things that needs to change is when we are alone we talk about all the other stuff going on (kids, house, etc.) since that is mainly what we have in common. I would like us to start a hobby together that we can both enjoy.


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I will admit that one of the things that needs to change is when we are alone we talk about all the other stuff going on (kids, house, etc.) since that is mainly what we have in common. I would like us to start a hobby together that we can both enjoy.


This is a great idea . . . for a later time. It may be difficult to implement right now.

If I were you, I would just be supportive of her current interests. I really would hesitate to place any new demands on her.

Z, she is an intense phase of mothering. I think if you can accept that, and be nurturing, you will feel less frustrated.


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## ZDog377

jld said:


> This is a great idea . . . for a later time. It may be difficult to implement right now.
> 
> If I were you, I would just be supportive of her current interests. I really would hesitate to place any new demands on her.
> 
> Z, she is an intense phase of mothering. I think if you can accept that, and be nurturing, you will feel less frustrated.


I'm all for whatever it takes to get this working, but it is just hard when there is no consistency. This weekend will be rough because of a basketball tournament plus if my father in law ends up coming down. He would be coming down Friday and staying until at least Wednesday of the following week. He stays at our place too.


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I'm all for whatever it takes to get this working, but it is just hard when there is no consistency. This weekend will be rough because of a basketball tournament plus if my father in law ends up coming down. He would be coming down Friday and staying until at least Wednesday of the following week. He stays at our place too.


Have you brought up these concerns?

Could you speak to fil yourself?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> I agree with the part about liking the job. I hate to quit because they treat me good and the pay is good as well.
> 
> I will admit she didn't seem thrilled with the idea of me being at home more often. We didn't have an hour long talk about it, it was more of a quick discussion.
> 
> Also, I'm not looking for sex all the time. I've told her that. We had a night probably a month ago that we went to bed early and just laid there looking at funny jokes and stuff on our phones and showing them to each other. It was probably only a half hour, but it was the most fun we have had in a while.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My H and I do this a lot. We often times will choose something funny to watch share laugh together. It is GREAT connection time. I think sometimes when kids come along and schedules get so overloaded this is a often overlooked area to maintain. It makes everything better. We also play board games. Now granted our board games are not for the faint of heart. We chose some humdingers lately that involve layers of strategy, but we LOVE connecting like that. So dig into your style and her style and connect in the middle. Find activities that are engaging, like a board game or the like. The one's we are playing right now are Ground Floor and Mogul, Cashflow. Ours are business and real estate related, but they make so many now from different genres. Adult play time without the sex often times leads to sex in our house  We also connect in cooking together. 

I am fearing that you are low priority just out of plain dullness so just bring some fun in and I believe it will change her mind about not having you around all the time.


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## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> *I am fearing that you are low priority just out of plain dullness *so just bring some fun in and I believe it will change her mind about not having you around all the time.


Blossom. We are not supposed to say that. 

Just giving you a hard time, Z. We are all dull, I am sure. I am not a laugh a minute, by any means. And I have read that good marriages can be kind of boring, because stable can be kind of boring. But stable is important! So feel good about that!


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## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> I'm all for whatever it takes to get this working, but it is just hard when there is no consistency. This weekend will be rough because of a basketball tournament plus if my father in law ends up coming down. He would be coming down Friday and staying until at least Wednesday of the following week. He stays at our place too.


I'm gonna tell ya.... y'all may find all this activity is a big source of the problem.


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## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Blossom. We are not supposed to say that.
> 
> Just giving you a hard time, Z. We are all dull, I am sure. I am not a laugh a minute, by any means. And I have read that good marriages can be kind of boring, because stable can be kind of boring. But stable is important! So feel good about that!


LOL... I don't think I meant it that HE is dull... just their situation is dull... feels like a lot of busyness and no fun outside looking in.

No offense OP

Yep, you are saying what I meant. Running a household can be boring. Bring on the laughter!


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## UMP

ZDog377 said:


> I'm all for whatever it takes to get this working, but it is just hard when there is no consistency. This weekend will be rough because of a basketball tournament plus if my father in law ends up coming down. He would be coming down Friday and staying until at least Wednesday of the following week. He stays at our place too.


Been there done that. My wife was ALL into the kids growing up and I took second place. It really was hard and it did effect our sex life negatively. However, once the kids reach teenage years they want nothing to do with you. Guess what my wife and I do now :grin2:

Our oldest, 21 years old, is mentally handicapped and will always have the mind of a 5 year old. Thank God she goes to bed early and sleeps like a rock for 12 hours. We love her to death, but you MUST have some alone time with your wife.


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## jld

UMP said:


> Been there done that. My wife was ALL into the kids growing up and I took second place. It really was hard and it did effect our sex life negatively. *However, once the kids reach teenage years they want nothing to do with you. * Guess what my wife and I do now :grin2:


This is what I mean, Z. It is a _season._

Dug and I have been married 21 years, with 5 kids. As our kids got older, we were able to start going out for dinner by ourselves, recently even leave for a few nights. But it was _years_ in the making.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> This is what I mean, Z. It is a _season._
> 
> Dug and I have been married 21 years, with 5 kids. As our kids got older, we were able to start going out for dinner by ourselves, recently even leave for a few nights. But it was _years_ in the making.


We are going through a similar season, so we connect when we can. Two full time jobs and two part time jobs between the two of us, three houses, two horses our baby boy, health issues, its a lot and can get dull. That's when we choose to laugh and play. And we are hiring out the things we can to free up time for each other.


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## mary35

For some it's a season. However for some it continues on. And even for those where it turns out to be a season - it feels like an eternity at the time. lol. 

You still have to work on the relationship. 

Zdog - the more you reveal, the more I feel this situation is quite complicated, with travel issues, medical issues, and clearly some relationship issues. I know it's expensive, but I really think you could use some professional help. Maybe you can do the counseling every other week or even every 3 weeks.

If you decide not to go that route, start reading some relationship sites or books together and discuss them together. While lack of sex is what is getting your attention at the moment, I really think you need to work on trying to connect together in other ways first. 

I really like this site and especially the love bank concept. A Summary of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts


----------



## ZDog377

mary35 said:


> For some it's a season. However for some it continues on. And even for those where it turns out to be a season - it feels like an eternity at the time. lol.
> 
> You still have to work on the relationship.
> 
> Zdog - the more you reveal, the more I feel this situation is quite complicated, with travel issues, medical issues, and clearly some relationship issues. I know it's expensive, but I really think you could use some professional help. Maybe you can do the counseling every other week or even every 3 weeks.
> 
> If you decide not to go that route, start reading some relationship sites or books together and discuss them together. While lack of sex is what is getting your attention at the moment, I really think you need to work on trying to connect together in other ways first.
> 
> I really like this site and especially the love bank concept. A Summary of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts


I do think the books and sites are the way to go for us. My insurance does not cover counseling and the cash rate we looked at would be $55/hour. After child care, each session would be close to $100. 

I'm definitely willing to put time and effort into this. I can only see our lives getting busier once the younger two get involved in sports.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> I do think the books and sites are the way to go for us. My insurance does not cover counseling and the cash rate we looked at would be $55/hour. After child care, each session would be close to $100.
> 
> I'm definitely willing to put time and effort into this. *I can only see our lives getting busier once the younger two get involved in sports*.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then don't....

Who is pushing to put them in sports?


----------



## Holdingontoit

Be careful about being penny wise and pound foolish. Saving the money on counseling to rebuild your marriage might end up costing you several times as much on lawyers and counselors when you end up divorced. Remind your wife that the single most important thing she can do to help her kids is to ensure that they grow up in a home with 2 parents who are married and love each other. If she thinks spending all her time and energy on the kids and saving none of herself for you is what is bet for the kids, she is simply mistaken. If she goes ballistic when you suggest that you might leave her over her ignoring you, tell her that you love her and want to stay married to her but you love yourself enough not to allow her to shortchange you. And that if she doesn't care enough about you to want the marriage to be happy, and only cares about the kids, then why exactly should you stay married to her? You have to be reasonable that you are not going to get as much of her time and energy as you did before you brought kids into the world. She needs to be reasonable that 100% devotion to the kids and 0% attention to hubby is NOT what is best for the kids.


----------



## Cynthia

Blossom Leigh said:


> Then don't....
> 
> Who is pushing to put them in sports?


This is exactly why our kids were not involved in sports. I have seen so many families overly stressed and disconnected due to over involvement in sports. I decided early on that we would not do that.

Furthermore sports are expensive. You could probably pay for counseling if you quit sports.


----------



## naiveonedave

CynthiaDe said:


> This is exactly why our kids were not involved in sports. I have seen so many families overly stressed and disconnected due to over involvement in sports. I decided early on that we would not do that.
> 
> Furthermore sports are expensive. You could probably pay for counseling if you quit sports.


meh, they need activities and all kids activities are expensive. You just have to manage, like anything else in life. I think that there are huge benefits to kids playing team sports. Health wise and emotionally.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

CynthiaDe said:


> This is exactly why our kids were not involved in sports. I have seen so many families overly stressed and disconnected due to over involvement in sports. I decided early on that we would not do that.
> 
> Furthermore sports are expensive. You could probably pay for counseling if you quit sports.


We've made the same choice. ONLY reasonable involvement.... NEVER over involvement. Family first.


----------



## Adelais

Wow, I read (at least skimmed) the entire thread, so I wouldn't be coming in cold.

What is happening in your marriage also happened in mine, so I hope my insight is relevant.

First, is your wife still nursing? I nursed 4 children, back to back, with one year break for about 9 years if I did the math right. Toward the end of that phase in our marriage I felt I was all "touched out." All day long, for 9 years, someone was either wanting to sit on my lap or nurse.

Then you add the issue of his being gone for long periods of time later on, and me having to be completely in charge of everything...I ended up being like you described your wife earlier on in the thread.

For the first years when he was not home anymore, I had to quit activities, because I was not able to do it all by myself. 

Eventually I did not schedule anything, so we could be available when dad was home. After several years of that, I realized that the children and I didn't have lives and plans of our own. Our lives were always in limbo, waiting for those couple of days Dad was home. Then when he was home dad didn't plan anything because he just wanted to be with us. I realized that all we did was stay home, all the time.

When the children got older, I decided that it was not fair to the children to not have fun lives and activities. I added a few activities that I could manage to get everyone to (things we all did together.) At first, when dad got home, he either had to go with us, or stay home. I think that he resented no longer being the center of attention, and having to chase us around. But he has adjusted, and this weekend he thanked me for getting the children involved in such fun things, so he was able to have a couple of very full and fun days off. He said that although his days off were very busy, they were fun and he felt like he had actually had time off.

I would rather have him home regularly, and I am pushing very hard for him to find a different job. I am also willing to sell our home and reduce our mortgage so he doesn't have to make so much, which will make his job search easier.

Someone here mentioned that she needs to pay less attention to the children. That is impossible when the children are younger. She can't stop changing the diaper, or feeding them or watching them, or cleaning up after them.

If you absolutely do not want to change jobs, can you afford a nanny to help take off some of the constant pressure when you are not home? Your wife is very busy from the moment she opens her eyes in the morning until she goes to sleep at night. It is exhausting physically and emotionally even for a woman who loves being a mother and a SAHM.

What people brought up regarding organized sports and the time commitment is very valid. We are not in that kind of sports, because I don't want our lives to be run by a sport 6 days a week for months at time. Are there any more laid back physical activities the family can be involved in that are not schedule demanding? However, maybe your family loves organized sports and that kind of life, but if not, you can find alternative things to do.

Regarding paying for counseling. Do you belong to a church? If you do, is there a pastor who has a bonafide counseling ministry? My best counselor so far has been a pastor who is getting his PhD in a specific area of counseling that has to do with one of the reasons I started talking with him. He is free.

Even more helpful than counseling has been reading here on TAM. Many of the posts and in particular the books that have been recommended and the websites have helped me and my husband more than counseling.

Get the books people recommend. Get them in audio format if you do not have time to sit down and read them. Just get them and listen to them. Ask your wife to listen to them too and discuss what you are learning with her.

Somehow get your wife to realize that the problems you are both experiencing are serious and should not be ignored or suffered through, but need to be addressed and changed. If your wife ignores the problems, your marriage will be in danger of a WAS or adultery over time.


----------



## Cynthia

naiveonedave said:


> meh, they need activities and all kids activities are expensive. You just have to manage, like anything else in life. I think that there are huge benefits to kids playing team sports. Health wise and emotionally.


Not in my experience. Sports are expensive. There are lots of things kids can do that are less expensive and less time consuming. Sports require several nights a week, which cuts into family time. My kids were involved in various things, but never sports due to the expense and the time commitment.


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## ZDog377

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Wow, I read (at least skimmed) the entire thread, so I wouldn't be coming in cold.
> 
> What is happening in your marriage also happened in mine, so I hope my insight is relevant.
> 
> First, is your wife still nursing? I nursed 4 children, back to back, with one year break for about 9 years if I did the math right. Toward the end of that phase in our marriage I felt I was all "touched out." All day long, for 9 years, someone was either wanting to sit on my lap or suck on me, literally. Then my husband would come home and want to suck on me too, LOL. (No he didn't want to nurse, but the milk flow starting when the Oxycontin kicked in was a real turn on to him.)
> 
> Then you add the issue of his being gone for long periods of time later on, and me having to be completely in charge of everything...I ended up being like you described your wife earlier on in the thread.
> 
> For the first years when he was not home anymore, I had to quit activities, because I was not able to do it all by myself.
> 
> Eventually I did not schedule anything, so we could be available when dad was home. After several years of that, I realized that the children and I didn't have lives and plans of our own. Our lives were always in limbo, waiting for those couple of days Dad was home. Then when he was home dad didn't plan anything because he just wanted to be with us. I realized that all we did was stay home, all the time.
> 
> When the children got older, I decided that it was not fair to the children to not have fun lives and activities. I added a few activities that I could manage to get everyone to (things we all did together.) At first, when dad got home, he either had to go with us, or stay home. I think that he resented no longer being the center of attention, and having to chase us around. But he has adjusted, and this weekend he thanked me for getting the children involved in such fun things, so he was able to have a couple of very full and fun days off. He said that although his days off were very busy, they were fun and he felt like he had actually had time off.
> 
> I would rather have him home regularly, and I am pushing very hard for him to find a different job. I am also willing to sell our home and reduce our mortgage so he doesn't have to make so much, which will make his job search easier.
> 
> Someone here mentioned that she needs to pay less attention to the children. That is impossible when the children are younger. She can't stop changing the diaper, or feeding them or watching them, or cleaning up after them.
> 
> If you absolutely do not want to change jobs, can you afford a nanny to help take off some of the constant pressure when you are not home? Your wife is very busy from the moment she opens her eyes in the morning until she goes to sleep at night. It is exhausting physically and emotionally even for a woman who loves being a mother and a SAHM.
> 
> What people brought up regarding organized sports and the time commitment is very valid. We are not in that kind of sports, because I don't want our lives to be run by a sport 6 days a week for months at time. Are there any more laid back physical activities the family can be involved in that are not schedule demanding? However, maybe your family loves organized sports and that kind of life, but if not, you can find alternative things to do.
> 
> Regarding paying for counseling. Do you belong to a church? If you do, is there a pastor who has a bonafide counseling ministry? My best counselor so far has been a pastor who is getting his PhD in a specific area of counseling that has to do with one of the reasons I started talking with him. He is free.
> 
> Even more helpful than counseling has been reading here on TAM. Many of the posts and in particular the books that have been recommended and the websites have helped me and my husband more than counseling.
> 
> Get the books people recommend. Get them in audio format if you do not have time to sit down and read them. Just get them and listen to them. Ask your wife to listen to them too and discuss what you are learning with her.
> 
> Somehow get your wife to realize that the problems you are both experiencing are serious and should not be ignored or suffered through, but need to be addressed and changed. If your wife ignores the problems, your marriage will be in danger of a WAS or adultery over time.


I have asked her to research day care that she can send the youngest to one or two days a week, possibly when the middle son is already in pre-school. She's done some research, but we haven't made a decision yet. 

Sports are a big thing for some reason. I wasn't big into playing them in school. This year for example he just finished up basketball, got picked for the traveling team. That will end a few weeks before the start of baseball. That will go to early summer and then there is the chance of being selected for the traveling team on that. Then he wants to either play soccer or fall baseball in the fall. I tried to explain to her that it isn't only the time involved, it's the money as well. Most of these are at least two days long and sometimes an hour away. She thinks it is health for him to be involved in this many things.


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## Adelais

Is the sports involvement your idea, hers or both? By your post I could't tell if you were in favor of the heavy sports schedule or not. If you are not, you should discuss it again with your wife.


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## ZDog377

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Is the sports involvement your idea, hers or both? By your post I could't tell if you were in favor of the heavy sports schedule or not. If you are not, you should discuss it again with your wife.


I'm OK with the regular sports season involvement, not so much the traveling team season. It's hard because he is good at it, but at the same time it is rough when there goes a whole weekend some times. He is the type of kid thought that needs to be doing something 24/7 to not be complaining.


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## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> I'm OK with the regular sports season involvement, not so much the traveling team season. It's hard because he is good at it, but at the same time it is rough when there goes a whole weekend some times. He is the type of kid thought that needs to be doing something 24/7 to not be complaining.


There are other ways to handle a complaining kid than running his legs off. Who is enabling his chronic complaining? Sounds like he has control of the family. His weapon to keep it that way is complaining.


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## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> There are other ways to handle a complaining kid than running his legs off. Who is enabling his chronic complaining? Sounds like he has control of the family. His weapon to keep it that way is complaining.


I don't think the child is at fault. The parents need to be able to say No.

Z, it sounds like your wife is completely wrapped up in her son's school and sports. She must find a lot of fulfillment in all that activity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I don't think the child is at fault. The parents need to be able to say No.
> 
> Z, it sounds like your wife is completely wrapped up in her son's school and sports. She must find a lot of fulfillment in all that activity.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Correct. I wasn't blaming the child. It is the parents I'm blaming for allowing it to get to this point.

She is either getting fulfillment or she is using it to distract herself.


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## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Correct. I wasn't blaming the child. It is the parents I'm blaming for allowing it to get to this point.
> 
> She is either getting fulfillment or she is using it to distract herself.


Perhaps both.


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## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Perhaps both.


Agree.:nerd:


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## Adelais

ZDog377 said:


> I'm OK with the regular sports season involvement, not so much the traveling team season. It's hard because he is good at it, but at the same time it is rough when there goes a whole weekend some times. * He is the type of kid thought that needs to be doing something 24/7 to not be complaining.*


I understand. Our son was that way, and we did not keep him busy in the ways he needed. He became a good reader though!

Some boys need lots of physical activity every day. As I read your post last night, I thought about our son, and felt at a loss for you. I wasn't willing to do the travelling sport thing, and I wish I had been able to do it, even without my husband's help, just for the sake our son. It wasn't because he loved sports, but he needed to be kept busy and was very social. The way we handled it didn't meet his needs or fit his personality. But I wasn't going to drag our 3 younger children (at the time) all over the snowy highways all by myself.

Unless you are in a special position to be able to come up with things that keep him busy, he will become restless and angry.

If you aren't the type of person who can come up with activities on your own that keep your son's mind and body busy, sticking with the sports thing might be the best way for you to go, especially since you and your wife can share it together.


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## Adelais

Can you plan cross country skiing, mountain or road biking, hiking (even snow hiking), snow shoeing, roller blading, ice skating, etc. every weekend? Those sports would wear him out, be a bonding experience for the two of you as well as for the rest of the family, and not force you to be on someone else's travel schedule.


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## naiveonedave

wrt travel sports and the like. They do impact families immensely and I don't know how families with more than 2 or 3 kids can support them, purely logistically. However, depending on your goals and your child's goals, playing travel may be a requirement to play HS sports, especially if your HS is large. This is an unfortunate truth.

Another thing that I find very useful, is that with travel sports, I do get a couple hours a week of 1 on 1 time with my child, in the car, at the hotel, at restaurants, etc. Those times are priceless. Was talking to another dad last week, to quote him - "travel to and from my son's HS/travel events are the few moments I have to bond with my son, as a high school senior, these moments are fleeting and I wouldn't trade them for anything".


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## Adelais

naiveonedave said:


> Another thing that I find very useful, is that with travel sports, I do get a couple hours a week of 1 on 1 time with my child, in the car, at the hotel, at restaurants, etc. Those times are priceless. Was talking to another dad last week, to quote him - "travel to and from my son's HS/travel events are the few moments I have to bond with my son, as a high school senior, these moments are fleeting and I wouldn't trade them for anything".


This is worth its weight in gold.


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## naiveonedave

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> This is worth its weight in gold.


thanks. 

Another side benefit for travel sports is that kids learn that they actually have to work to improve. Most 'house' leagues, you can get by with no effort, no practice, no work by yourself, etc.

Not saying they are for everyone, especially if you have many kids and/or money is tight, but they have some value....


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## Blossom Leigh

Yall, just for the record. I just want to caution always keeping a child on the move because he can't be still without complaining. 

I'll use my horses as an example because it is also what I do with my child. When you have a high strung horse... who cannot keep his feet still., you have two choices... either you move his feet faster than he wants to move so that HE chooses to finally stand still OR you put him in a position where he has no choice but to stand still, pitches his little fit until he's tired of pitching it, then praise him when he finally stands still. Parents are not put on this planet to be run around by their kids. We are to direct and guide their behavior. While it's good to realize when you have a high strung child, it is equally good to realize WHEN that child needs to learn to quit complaining when he can't be moving all the time. That is an important life skill. I hope I'm singing to the choir here.


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## Plan 9 from OS

naiveonedave said:


> meh, they need activities and all kids activities are expensive. You just have to manage, like anything else in life. I think that there are huge benefits to kids playing team sports. Health wise and emotionally.


There's a healthy level of child activities and then there is going overboard and losing your marriage because of the "parent trap". OP mentioned that his oldest is in at least 3 sports locally plus a traveling sport for BB? That's 4 activities!!!

OP, check your oldest out thoroughly. Does he have the genetics to get a college scholarship for a sport plus play professionally? Does he have a high percentage of fast twitch muscle fibers? High attached calf muscles? The genetics to either to be tall and/or put on a lot of muscle? If not, then face the facts dude that your kid is more than likely no better than any other of the young so-called "superstars" out there. Unless your kid has the genes to play the sport professionally or has a good shot to parlay his athletic prowess into a full ride at a good college, nix the travel team. 

It's nothing but a fvcking waste of time. If parents were smart, the concept of a traveling teams will dry up and go away for good. Unfortunately, most parents don't seem to be all that bright when it comes to managing the activities of their kids...


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## Cynthia

My kids played outside a lot, took walks, rode their bikes, hula hoop, catch, skateboarding, and when they got older they did yoga and other exercise. When they get older you can get some weights and teach them how to use them. For younger children, a mini trampoline is also a good thing to keep them moving. I used an exercise ball for my son. He loved to bounce on that thing. We had a swing set and went to parks often. We had lots of play with other children as well.

I agree if he is complaining that he needs to be taught how to have a better attitude and he should be given things to keep him active and busy, including chores. Have him scrub the bathroom once a week, that will teach him many important things, as well as keep him busy. Kids need to feel they are a needed and important part of the family. Chores help them develop in this area and to take ownership of their environment. My 16 yo was just telling me that he needs to get to work on the yard, because it's not looking as good as he wants it to. He is taking pride in his home and he got a good workout yesterday mowing and weed whacking. He came in happy and beaming about what he plans to do next. This is my high energy kid.


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## Blossom Leigh

Plan 9 from OS said:


> There's a healthy level of child activities and then there is going overboard and losing your marriage because of the "parent trap". OP mentioned that his oldest is in at least 3 sports locally plus a traveling sport for BB? That's 4 activities!!!
> 
> OP, check your oldest out thoroughly. Does he have the genetics to get a college scholarship for a sport plus play professionally? Does he have a high percentage of fast twitch muscle fibers? High attached calf muscles? The genetics to either to be tall and/or put on a lot of muscle? If not, then face the facts dude that your kid is more than likely no better than any other of the young so-called "superstars" out there. Unless your kid has the genes to play the sport professionally or has a good shot to parlay his athletic prowess into a full ride at a good college, nix the travel team.
> 
> It's nothing but a fvcking waste of time. If parents were smart, the concept of a traveling teams will dry up and go away for good. Unfortunately, most parents don't seem to be all that bright when it comes to managing the activities of their kids...


:allhail:


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## Blossom Leigh

CynthiaDe said:


> My kids played outside a lot, took walks, rode their bikes, hula hoop, catch, skateboarding, and when they got older they did yoga and other exercise. When they get older you can get some weights and teach them how to use them. For younger children, a mini trampoline is also a good thing to keep them moving. I used an exercise ball for my son. He loved to bounce on that thing. We had a swing set and went to parks often. We had lots of play with other children as well.
> 
> I agree if he is complaining that he needs to be taught how to have a better attitude and he should be given things to keep him active and busy, including chores. Have him scrub the bathroom once a week, that will teach him many important things, as well as keep him busy. Kids need to feel they are a needed and important part of the family. Chores help them develop in this area and to take ownership of their environment. My 16 yo was just telling me that he needs to get to work on the yard, because it's not looking as good as he wants it to. He is taking pride in his home and he got a good workout yesterday mowing and weed whacking. He came in happy and beaming about what he plans to do next. This is my high energy kid.


Exactly! Give him a job! that would also take some load off.

I'm hearing priority problems.


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## jld

I think the issue is selling the wife on this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia

jld said:


> I think the issue is selling the wife on this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think people get an idea in their heads of what is necessary and don't realize what a trap it really is.

Our house was the gathering spot for the neighborhood kids. They played all sorts of things and had a lot of fun. We homeschooled, so when the other kids got out of school, they would head over to our house to play.

We also had a trampoline and a basketball hoop. They still like to shoot hoops when the weather is nice. Our house is still a gathering place for the young people. It's not unusual for us to have 12 people or so at our table for dinner. They help clean up as well. There is a lot of joy in spending time doing things with people you love.

My kids did not complain of being bored. They tried it once or twice, but were told that they had to find something to do and asked to tell me what was available to them. There is no point of complaining when you get zero sympathy, but have to come up with a list or are given a chore.

It is not the job of a parent to keep their kid entertained. It is the job of the parent to teach the kids how to entertain themselves and how to be productive and active.


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## Rubicon

> He is the type of kid thought that needs to be doing something 24/7 to not be complaining.


I'm pretty sure the scientific term for that is "Spoiled Brat" My parents did very well with money and I wanted to be in every sport and event also but, responsibly, my parents taught me that I am not entitled at everyone else's expense to do whatever I please. 

So, in summery: You are gone all week leaving her full time to care for three children. She does this all week by herself, and the only time left for work not related to the rearing of the children is on the weekends (home maintenance, groceries shopping etc...) and I'm guessing this MUST get done or it is going to screw with her ability to successfully get through the upcoming week. Oh ya, and she is also expected to manage a full sporting schedule for the children in multiple sports season after season without break?

And then you drop in on the weekend and want to play grab ass all over the house...... Keeping her from getting the required work done????

So as a concession, she asks for a date night with you?

Your response was to put pressure on her to work out the details of a babysitter. and get HER to research this and that for you when it is completely clear she already has no spare or free time. And you are clearly not happy that she isn't also choosing and planning the events for you.

Oh ya, and all this is so you can drag her shopping over at walmart because you think this is an acceptable date.

Now, She's pissed at you for this obviously (who wouldn't be) and your main concern is that nobody but you seems concerned with your orgasms?

and you feel she has plenty of time for herself because you scheduled two hours two days a week smack in the middle of this mess and expect her to be grateful for it? Did it ever occur to you she might want to plan a morning doing something for herself and it doesn't tie up neatly into your allocated two hour window. Maybe she does want to try a hobby or something that does not happen on your Wed morning between 8:45 and 10:45 kind of window. Again, dealing with you must just build more frustration in her. 

Now, clearly the solution to all of this would be to make career choices that align with your choice to raise a large family which obviously was not a concern in the planning up until this point, but you are pretty much putting up a fight to maintain the status quo... I am constantly amazed at people who dig themselves into a hole like this and refuse to climb out when it starts to fill with water and risks drowning them...... 

I'm not saying that through complete self sacrifice, your wife cannot make these poor choices work somehow but you better understand that in order to do so she is going to become resentful and the very first thing out the window is ANY concern that you get you get your willy wet.

When a wife repulses from the touch of their partner something is very seriously broken. This is not the time for half assed measures. Take a job at McDonalds until you find something better local. You have a responsibility to your family and no matter how much you protest it is clear you are not meeting it. You simply are not putting in enough time.

Do you want a family and a wife who loves you and wants you around or do you want to be the weekend dad that you so clearly set yourself up to be?

Your wife wants to be a mom and have a family, you seem to only want it on the weekends. Why not divorce so you can both find someone more suited to the lifestyle you are creating for yourselves?


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## ZDog377

Rubicon said:


> I'm pretty sure the scientific term for that is "Spoiled Brat" My parents did very well with money and I wanted to be in every sport and event also but, responsibly, my parents taught me that I am not entitled at everyone else's expense to do whatever I please.
> 
> So, in summery: You are gone all week leaving her full time to care for three children. She does this all week by herself, and the only time left for work not related to the rearing of the children is on the weekends (home maintenance, groceries shopping etc...) and I'm guessing this MUST get done or it is going to screw with her ability to successfully get through the upcoming week. Oh ya, and she is also expected to manage a full sporting schedule for the children in multiple sports season after season without break?
> 
> And then you drop in on the weekend and want to play grab ass all over the house...... Keeping her from getting the required work done????
> 
> So as a concession, she asks for a date night with you?
> 
> Your response was to put pressure on her to work out the details of a babysitter. and get HER to research this and that for you when it is completely clear she already has no spare or free time. And you are clearly not happy that she isn't also choosing and planning the events for you.
> 
> Oh ya, and all this is so you can drag her shopping over at walmart because you think this is an acceptable date.
> 
> Now, She's pissed at you for this obviously (who wouldn't be) and your main concern is that nobody but you seems concerned with your orgasms?
> 
> and you feel she has plenty of time for herself because you scheduled two hours two days a week smack in the middle of this mess and expect her to be grateful for it? Did it ever occur to you she might want to plan a morning doing something for herself and it doesn't tie up neatly into your allocated two hour window. Maybe she does want to try a hobby or something that does not happen on your Wed morning between 8:45 and 10:45 kind of window. Again, dealing with you must just build more frustration in her.
> 
> Now, clearly the solution to all of this would be to make career choices that align with your choice to raise a large family which obviously was not a concern in the planning up until this point, but you are pretty much putting up a fight to maintain the status quo... I am constantly amazed at people who dig themselves into a hole like this and refuse to climb out when it starts to fill with water and risks drowning them......
> 
> I'm not saying that through complete self sacrifice, your wife cannot make these poor choices work somehow but you better understand that in order to do so she is going to become resentful and the very first thing out the window is ANY concern that you get you get your willy wet.
> 
> When a wife repulses from the touch of their partner something is very seriously broken. This is not the time for half assed measures. Take a job at McDonalds until you find something better local. You have a responsibility to your family and no matter how much you protest it is clear you are not meeting it. You simply are not putting in enough time.
> 
> Do you want a family and a wife who loves you and wants you around or do you want to be the weekend dad that you so clearly set yourself up to be?
> 
> Your wife wants to be a mom and have a family, you seem to only want it on the weekends. Why not divorce so you can both find someone more suited to the lifestyle you are creating for yourselves?


Let me clear up a few things:

- Granted we did not have the three kids when we first got married but traveling is something I have done the whole time she has known me. This job actually has me home more than my old job I had the first three years of our marriage. 

- I never said that I consider grocery shopping at Walmart an acceptable date. I said I wanted something more than that because it's obviously not the most exciting thing in the world. Also, I'm the one asking for a date night. We both agree we need one. 

- I asked her if she could work on finding a babysitter. I've also started looking as well. She is a perfectionist and has a list of standards she wants a babysitter she doesn't know to have. 

- I never said she has plenty of time for herself. If I could afford a nanny or housekeeper or daycare full time for them I would, but neither of those are the cheapest in the world. I've also told her there is no problem with her going to visit her friend in SC. I just need to know when so I can work my schedule around it. I've never given her a problem with going to do anything for herself, I've just asked for some notice so I can work things out on my end. 

- I don't want to play grab ass. It would be nice to have some intimate time with her, but right now some time together after the kids go to bed would be nice. 

- As far as sports, it is only the oldest in the sports right now. The middle son will start playing T-ball here in the spring, but it is definitely a few years before the youngest starts.


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## norajane

ZDog377 said:


> I have asked her to research day care that she can send the youngest to one or two days a week, possibly when the middle son is already in pre-school. She's done some research, but we haven't made a decision yet.
> 
> Sports are a big thing for some reason. I wasn't big into playing them in school. This year for example he just finished up basketball, got picked for the traveling team. That will end a few weeks before the start of baseball. That will go to early summer and then there is the chance of being selected for the traveling team on that. Then he wants to either play soccer or fall baseball in the fall. I tried to explain to her that it isn't only the time involved, it's the money as well. Most of these are at least two days long and sometimes an hour away. She thinks it is health for him to be involved in this many things.


Wow. What about time to study? How are his grades? Is this a priority at all in her mind?


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## ZDog377

norajane said:


> Wow. What about time to study? How are his grades? Is this a priority at all in her mind?


His grades are good. Mostly 3's and 4's I believe. Basketball tournament practice is only one day a week right now. We have told him multiple times if his grades drop, he will not do sports.


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## jld

Our date the other day was going to the post office and bank together.

You take what you can get, I guess . . .
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rubicon

People sure hate even the idea of change. When reviewing processes at work. Oftentimes, in response to why something is done the way it is, you will hear "We have always done it that way" with a complete blank stare looking at you like somehow it isn't possible to think about doing it differently.

This is the written version of that:


> Granted we did not have the three kids when we first got married but traveling is something I have done the whole time she has known me. This job actually has me home more than my old job I had the first three years of our marriage.


Like a number of threads currently running on the site, there seems to be a resistance to doing anything at all to address the root cause of the issues that effect the OP's.

Zdog, this is simple. You wife is exhausted. You not home picking up your end of the workload. When you do come home you basically add your needs to an already overwhelming list of tasks. Unless you fix this it will continue to get worse.

EVERYTHING you are suggesting is simply a way to maintain, not fix, what is broken. you are trying to micromanage your way through this while disrupting the status quo as little as you can.

....I'll find her an extra hour a week here, I did a load or two of laundry last weekend, I offered one weekend away so she would come back to normal after.... I looked after the kids so she could go get groceries....

This is petty meaningless stuff and it just shows her how stubborn you are to not change anything. There is no one thing you can do that will make everything go back the way it was. You are on a very clear course here, your wife is drifting away. You better look at the compass and see if perhaps you are going in the wrong direction.

People grow as they age. Nobody and nothing stays the same forever. You can grow together or you can grow apart.

I think what you describe, a wife recoiling from her husbands touch, is an indication that you are growing apart.

Ignore it if you like, Tell us there is nothing you can do if you like... but if you want to pull your family back from this you had better consider a paradigm shift.


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## jld

What would you suggest, @Rubicon?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rubicon

I wouldn't rule out the job situation. I'm not saying that this is a simple thing to do but there is a dichotomy here between his work life and his family life that needs to be addressed.

He said it himself, it wasn't like this when they got married or when they only had one child, but things have changed.

Well, maybe it's time to start working closer to home. Nobody has to quit tomorrow but I'd be looking very hard at it.

The little things right now are not enough, if he wants to steer clear of the eventual ILYBINILWY speech that can possibly pop up among couples where adultery is not an issue, then maybe it's time for a grand gesture.

I might consider that if this was me.


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## ZDog377

Rubicon said:


> I wouldn't rule out the job situation. I'm not saying that this is a simple thing to do but there is a dichotomy here between his work life and his family life that needs to be addressed.
> 
> He said it himself, it wasn't like this when they got married or when they only had one child, but things have changed.
> 
> Well, maybe it's time to start working closer to home. Nobody has to quit tomorrow but I'd be looking very hard at it.
> 
> The little things right now are not enough, if he wants to steer clear of the eventual ILYBINILWY speech that can possibly pop up among couples where adultery is not an issue, then maybe it's time for a grand gesture.
> 
> I might consider that if this was me.


I understand about the job change. However, if she is looking to do night shift to minimize the cost/amount of day care there is nothing that I gain. 
I have been trying to help out more the past few days and it seems to slowly be making a difference.....


----------



## Rubicon

Zdog, Respectfully, your wife is looking to do a night shift simply to get out and get some time for herself away from being a 24/7 mommy/housekeeper/wife. Taking on a menial job is the only way she has discovered to do it. If you were working local and home every night she wouldn't need the job, she could just take Tuesday nights or something and do something she actually wants to do. If you think she WANTs to go do a menial job so she can afford to pay someone else to look after her kids you are mistaken, she just desperately needs some time away from her daily grind and this is the only way to do it because she cannot count on you to do anything other than drop some money in the bank.

And lets be real here, If your job was so great and so lucrative there would be plenty of money for daycare and she wouldn't need a second job. So what is it about THIS job, that keeps you away from your duties as a husband and father and puts undue stress and pressure on your family, that makes you want to fight to keep it so hard? 

I'm sure you can get the same pay locally. but no, you are not making enough to properly care for your family while you are away all the time, your wife is working double duty to make up for the shortfall and you are insisting nothing can change.

What do you do every night on the road while your wife is doing housework, getting kids ready for the next day and getting them to bed, preparing meals etc???

Since I travel for work a lot I know. You go to the hotel bar and get served supper on a the company dime, surf the net or TV in your room, read the paper and relax, maybe get into some light conversation with others in the bar..... You are not in your room slaving over your laptop every night trying to meet deadlines now are you???

I'm thinking you know deep down you have it good in a very unfair way are you are battling every step of the way to keep things as they are. 

Seriously, you seem to think in your last post that since your wife is considering further sacrifice and taking on more work to make up for you not being there, that you personally have nothing to gain by not letting her pick up the slack... 

You don't seem to get that your petty attempts to do a load of laundry now and again are going to backfire as too little too late when she realises after trying to both hold down a job and raise your family and do all the housework, while you make no adjustments to anything you are doing, that she is wasting her time with you.


----------



## ZDog377

Rubicon said:


> Zdog, Respectfully, your wife is looking to do a night shift simply to get out and get some time for herself away from being a 24/7 mommy/housekeeper/wife. Taking on a menial job is the only way she has discovered to do it. If you were working local and home every night she wouldn't need the job, she could just take Tuesday nights or something and do something she actually wants to do. If you think she WANTs to go do a menial job so she can afford to pay someone else to look after her kids you are mistaken, she just desperately needs some time away from her daily grind and this is the only way to do it because she cannot count on you to do anything other than drop some money in the bank.
> 
> And lets be real here, If your job was so great and so lucrative there would be plenty of money for daycare and she wouldn't need a second job. So what is it about THIS job, that keeps you away from your duties as a husband and father and puts undue stress and pressure on your family, that makes you want to fight to keep it so hard?
> 
> I'm sure you can get the same pay locally. but no, you are not making enough to properly care for your family while you are away all the time, your wife is working double duty to make up for the shortfall and you are insisting nothing can change.
> 
> What do you do every night on the road while your wife is doing housework, getting kids ready for the next day and getting them to bed, preparing meals etc???
> 
> Since I travel for work a lot I know. You go to the hotel bar and get served supper on a the company dime, surf the net or TV in your room, read the paper and relax, maybe get into some light conversation with others in the bar..... You are not in your room slaving over your laptop every night trying to meet deadlines now are you???
> 
> I'm thinking you know deep down you have it good in a very unfair way are you are battling every step of the way to keep things as they are.
> 
> Seriously, you seem to think in your last post that since your wife is considering further sacrifice and taking on more work to make up for you not being there, that you personally have nothing to gain by not letting her pick up the slack...
> 
> You don't seem to get that your petty attempts to do a load of laundry now and again are going to backfire as too little too late when she realises after trying to both hold down a job and raise your family and do all the housework, while you make no adjustments to anything you are doing, that she is wasting her time with you.


Did you miss the part where I said I did most of the laundry when I was home for three weeks? I didnt fold it because I do it wrong. Better to do other things than be criticized on folding laundry wrong. I help out around the house more often than you think. 

I'm also glad you know the level of income needed to run my house. Contrary to popular belief, money isn't the only thing I look at in a job. This place is very family oriented and as long as I let them know far enough in advance I can usually get the kids activities off. I'm also glad you think you know everything just because you travel as well. 

Its funny how everybody else here offers constructive advice but you for some reason feel you are all knowing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rubicon

I would say the fact that I seemed to have touched such a sensitive nerve in you that I'm not far off the mark at all.

If the job is so family oriented go tell them that keeping a husband and father on the road 5 days a week is putting undue hardship on your wife and kids. They should clear that right up for you huh? I mean, it is true after all, that's why you are here right?

I didn't miss the part where you said for a limited period of three weeks you helped out and don't understand why everything doesn't just go right back to the way it was after you performed that one off task. Why exactly do you think that one time thing should make up for the next 49 weeks of nothing. 

OK, I'm wrong, please tell us about the sacrifices you are making for your family in the evenings at your hotel room......

I would agree money is not that important to you in your job. I would think freedom is. It is clear your wife feels that if she is to step outside the house for her own piece of mind she must get a job to make up the shortfall of her not doing it for free while you strut around the country. You have control of her through her limited access to finances (can't afford daycare so she can have free time to herself) and you are not willing to let go of that obviously, that's why you are choosing to take offence and ignore the only advice that will fix the mess you are in.

Direct your energy through anger at me all you like, I could care less.

Your wife is still not happy, She is detaching from you. This is getting worse not better. If all you are looking for here is validation that you can't do anything to fix things then OK.

good luck to... your wife, she's gonna need it.


----------



## ZDog377

Rubicon said:


> I would say the fact that I seemed to have touched such a sensitive nerve in you that I'm not far off the mark at all.
> 
> If the job is so family oriented go tell them that keeping a husband and father on the road 5 days a week is putting undue hardship on your wife and kids. They should clear that right up for you huh? I mean, it is true after all, that's why you are here right?
> 
> I didn't miss the part where you said for a limited period of three weeks you helped out and don't understand why everything doesn't just go right back to the way it was after you performed that one off task. Why exactly do you think that one time thing should make up for the next 49 weeks of nothing.
> 
> OK, I'm wrong, please tell us about the sacrifices you are making for your family in the evenings at your hotel room......
> 
> I would agree money is not that important to you in your job. I would think freedom is. It is clear your wife feels that if she is to step outside the house for her own piece of mind she must get a job to make up the shortfall of her not doing it for free while you strut around the country. You have control of her through her limited access to finances (can't afford daycare so she can have free time to herself) and you are not willing to let go of that obviously, that's why you are choosing to take offence and ignore the only advice that will fix the mess you are in.
> 
> Direct your energy through anger at me all you like, I could care less.
> 
> Your wife is still not happy, She is detaching from you. This is getting worse not better. If all you are looking for here is validation that you can't do anything to fix things then OK.
> 
> good luck to... your wife, she's gonna need it.


I'm making the sacrifice of being away from my wife and kids so they can have their basic necessities provided for. I never said that I don't do anything when I'm home. I help with everything when I am home. The only thing I do not do is nurse the youngest obviously. 

Like I said before, I make enough now that I can support our family and allow her to be a SAHM. That was a decision we came to together. I'm not going to post my finances on here so you can act like king shi* and tell me what I'm doing is wrong. In have control of the finances because we have had issues there before.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Phil Anders

An observation from the peanut gallery, FWIW: 

_"I've hit a nerve, so I must be on to something."
"ooh, defensive!"_

This dimestore psychoanalysis is a low-blow tactic in discourse. It's a cheap way of invalidating someone's position and adds nothing good to your arguments. I mention it because I've now seen it twice on this thread from two different people who purport to be serious contributors.

ETA make that two threads (this one and "Never Ending Saga")


----------



## Rubicon

BS, you could be providing basic needs working at Walmart. You are choosing this "Sacrifice" because it suits you.

WHEN did the two of you make the decision? Sounds like she's attempting to renegotiate and you are trying to hold her to something that is not working for her. Was this decision made after the latest was born or before?

Do you think there is anything at all that would justify revisiting these decisions or in your mind is she obligated to stick to a decision made years ago for the rest of her life simply because you refuse to make any changes?

The little house work you can do on the 2 weekend days, while you also have to romance and provide comfort to your wife, spend quality time with your children, address yard work and home maintenance and the litany of other task life is made up of full time is simply not enough.

You CANNOT cram it all into that two day window and disappear for the next 5 and pretend you are doing enough like you are doing. 

Your wife is telling you that but you are ignoring her while you try to find some one off task so she will shut up and let things go back to normal....

and I'm glad you admit you are being controlling with the finances. It is obviously having a negative effect on the relationship as she is now willing to replace you in that regard and get her own job so she can support your children while she gets some well deserved time for herself. She most likely resents you for forcing her to make that decision. That's why she can't stand you touching her. You are becoming repulsive to her.

The longer you keep up the fight to get your own way the closer to the end of the marriage you are.

You do realise she is detaching right?


----------



## Rubicon

> It's a cheap way of invalidating someone's position and adds nothing good to your arguments. I mention it because I've now seen it twice on this thread from two different people who purport to be serious contributors.


I don't have to invalidate his position, he didn't take one. if he had we would have something to discuss but all he did was say I was wrong without offering a single counterpoint......

Seriously, What's the sacrifice of living in a room with room service and the freedom to come and go as you please? What is he getting out of this job that he could not get from a job locally?

He's offering nothing but "I've always had this job and I'm not gonna change" All the while admitting everything else in his life has changed......


----------



## anonmd

:redcard:Where is the dislike button?:whip: Give it a break Rubicon


----------



## lifeistooshort

I think Rubicon makes valid points that nobody wants to address.

This situation isn't working for his wife but instead of addressing the root issue he's looking for band aids and using the argument of he's always done this.

He isn't an integral part of the family unit, he's a paycheck. You can't be part of the family unit if you're not there. Period. 

You know what's going to happen here? He'll either get the ILYBNILWY speech or he'll give his wife an ultimatum for more intimacy and she'll either call his bluff or make a token effort, which is all she has to give. 

For whatever reason op isn't willing to deal with the fact that this isn't working. As Rubicon pointed out it is not family friendly for him to be gone all the time. 

Maybe he's so used to this he thinks of it as normal, but it's not. Especially if he's controlling with the money. 

Bash his wife all you want. Op, give her an ultimatum..... and then when nothing changes divorce her. Then you'll be an official weekend dad, will owe her cs and alimony, and you'll try to meet another woman that you'll never see but I suppose you'll get sex once in a while. 

I don't understand why you're unwilling to face what's going on, maybe you just really like your job situation and don't want to give it up. 

You don't seem that excited by the prospect of being with your family full time. 

Perhaps you should ask yourself why.

I'd love to see this work out, I just don't see how it can until you deal with the root issue. 

You're seldom home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

Rubicon said:


> BS, you could be providing basic needs working at Walmart. You are choosing this "Sacrifice" because it suits you.
> 
> WHEN did the two of you make the decision? Sounds like she's attempting to renegotiate and you are trying to hold her to something that is not working for her. Was this decision made after the latest was born or before?
> 
> Do you think there is anything at all that would justify revisiting these decisions or in your mind is she obligated to stick to a decision made years ago for the rest of her life simply because you refuse to make any changes?
> 
> The little house work you can do on the 2 weekend days, while you also have to romance and provide comfort to your wife, spend quality time with your children, address yard work and home maintenance and the litany of other task life is made up of full time is simply not enough.
> 
> You CANNOT cram it all into that two day window and disappear for the next 5 and pretend you are doing enough like you are doing.
> 
> Your wife is telling you that but you are ignoring her while you try to find some one off task so she will shut up and let things go back to normal....
> 
> and I'm glad you admit you are being controlling with the finances. It is obviously having a negative effect on the relationship as she is now willing to replace you in that regard and get her own job so she can support your children while she gets some well deserved time for herself. She most likely resents you for forcing her to make that decision. That's why she can't stand you touching her. You are becoming repulsive to her.
> 
> The longer you keep up the fight to get your own way the closer to the end of the marriage you are.
> 
> You do realise she is detaching right?


We revisited the decision after our third was born. Like I said before, I've been home more with this job than the previous. Explain to me how basic needs could be met while working at Walmart. If I took less pay to work there and be home, majority of her pay would go towards paying for day care for the younger two and depending on her working hours, the oldest as well. 

As far as handling finances, this is something we came to an agreement as well. She has freely admitted that I am better with finances than she is. 

I've also mentioned that some times I am not gone the full week. Some weeks I am gone Monday - Wednesday or Wednesday - Friday. The weeks that I'm home extra days I try and get my paperwork done while I'm out of town so I can help out as much as I can when I'm home those extra days. Does house maintenance ever end? No, but I've learned there are things I'm better off paying to have done than tying up hours figuring out myself.


----------



## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> I think Rubicon makes valid points that nobody wants to address.
> 
> This situation isn't working for his wife but instead of addressing the root issue he's looking for band aids and using the argument of he's always done this.
> 
> He isn't an integral part of the family unit, he's a paycheck. You can't be part of the family unit if you're not there. Period.
> 
> You know what's going to happen here? He'll either get the ILYBNILWY speech or he'll give his wife an ultimatum for more intimacy and she'll either call his bluff or make a token effort, which is all she has to give.
> 
> For whatever reason op isn't willing to deal with the fact that this isn't working. As Rubicon pointed out it is not family friendly for him to be gone all the time.
> 
> Maybe he's so used to this he thinks of it as normal, but it's not. Especially if he's controlling with the money.
> 
> Bash his wife all you want. Op, give her an ultimatum..... and then when nothing changes divorce her. Then you'll be an official weekend dad, will owe her cs and alimony, and you'll try to meet another woman that you'll never see but I suppose you'll get sex once in a while.
> 
> I don't understand why you're unwilling to face what's going on, maybe you just really like your job situation and don't want to give it up.
> 
> You don't seem that excited by the prospect of being with your family full time.
> 
> Perhaps you should ask yourself why.
> 
> I'd love to see this work out, I just don't see how it can until you deal with the root issue.
> 
> You're seldom home.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Rubi is also ignoring and making up facts to suit his narrative.

Not a good way to make a point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## aine

I can see where Rubicon is coming from, have experienced the same thing myself with a travelling husband and felt neglected and abandoned but he was so obtuse when I tried to point it out all i got was I am doing this for the future of the family, which is true but that doesn't help a wife who is in emotional pain. 
YOu need to be open and talk about it and see what her needs are and how (under the circumstances) you can go about meeting those needs. She is not meeting your needs (for companionship, sex) because she has switched off. Women need love, conversation and affection (difficult to do when you are not around). You can do things, such as write her letters, call her and actually hear her etc even though you are travelling.

I have started to live a totally independent life when my kids moved, now have a full time job and have no illusions that I am ready to leave once it suits me. For years I told him I felt lonely, neglected and abandoned ( I was home alone most of the time, though I had friends and extracurricular activities I missed the bond with my H). He would try for all of a few days and then go back to his old ways. 
He has lost a part of my heart forever because I know that I am not important enough for him to change, that hurts a wife deeply. Everything has always been about him. Now I don't give a s*** and though I can play the wife role well, join him in activities, have fun, have sex, etc there is a part of me he will never have again and if and when I walk, I will do so with no regrets (my story is more complicated with cheating and alcohol abuse for many years) but I hope you get the gist. 

Z, You do not want a wife with a hardened heart when you have a chance not to go there. Be prepared to make changes because this is the direction you are headed.


----------



## ConanHub

aine said:


> I can see where Rubicon is coming from, have experienced the same thing myself with a travelling husband and felt neglected and abandoned but he was so obtuse when I tried to point it out all i got was I am doing this for the future of the family, which is true but that doesn't help a wife who is in emotional pain.
> YOu need to be open and talk about it and see what her needs are and how (under the circumstances) you can go about meeting those needs. She is not meeting your needs (for companionship, sex) because she has switched off. Women need love, conversation and affection (difficult to do when you are not around). You can do things, such as write her letters, call her and actually hear her etc even though you are travelling.
> 
> I have started to live a totally independent life when my kids moved, now have a full time job and have no illusions that I am ready to leave once it suits me. For years I told him I felt lonely, neglected and abandoned ( I was home alone most of the time, though I had friends and extracurricular activities I missed the bond with my H). He would try for all of a few days and then go back to his old ways.
> He has lost a part of my heart forever because I know that I am not important enough for him to change, that hurts a wife deeply. Everything has always been about him. Now I don't give a s*** and though I can play the wife role well, join him in activities, have fun, have sex, etc there is a part of me he will never have again and if and when I walk, I will do so with no regrets (my story is more complicated with cheating and alcohol abuse for many years) but I hope you get the gist.
> 
> Z, You do not want a wife with a hardened heart when you have a chance not to go there. Be prepared to make changes because this is the direction you are headed.


Your right. He should work at WalMart.

I agree with his situation needing fixed but changing careers doesn't happen overnight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

aine said:


> I can see where Rubicon is coming from, have experienced the same thing myself with a travelling husband and felt neglected and abandoned but he was so obtuse when I tried to point it out all i got was I am doing this for the future of the family, which is true but that doesn't help a wife who is in emotional pain.
> YOu need to be open and talk about it and see what her needs are and how (under the circumstances) you can go about meeting those needs. She is not meeting your needs (for companionship, sex) because she has switched off. Women need love, conversation and affection (difficult to do when you are not around). You can do things, such as write her letters, call her and actually hear her etc even though you are travelling.
> 
> I have started to live a totally independent life when my kids moved, now have a full time job and have no illusions that I am ready to leave once it suits me. For years I told him I felt lonely, neglected and abandoned ( I was home alone most of the time, though I had friends and extracurricular activities I missed the bond with my H). He would try for all of a few days and then go back to his old ways.
> He has lost a part of my heart forever because I know that I am not important enough for him to change, that hurts a wife deeply. Everything has always been about him. Now I don't give a s*** and though I can play the wife role well, join him in activities, have fun, have sex, etc there is a part of me he will never have again and if and when I walk, I will do so with no regrets (my story is more complicated with cheating and alcohol abuse for many years) but I hope you get the gist.
> 
> Z, You do not want a wife with a hardened heart when you have a chance not to go there. Be prepared to make changes because this is the direction you are headed.


I usually talk to her at least 3 times a day. When I get up/before I go in, at lunch, and at least once after work. I've been working on sending her random messages during the day letting her know I'm thinking of her. I know change isn't going to happen overnight, but I'm definitely willing to try.


----------



## Adelais

ConanHub said:


> Your right. He should work at WalMart.
> 
> I agree with his situation needing fixed but changing careers doesn't happen overnight.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


ZDog, can you at least consider the idea of looking for a job that will allow you and your family to maintain your standard of living?

If you are home more, you will get a better feel of the whole situation. You'll find out if your wife is going to warm up to you, and you both can work on your relationship together.

You will also be around to participate more in your children's lives, and regularly assess the sports issues.

I was like CynthiaDe regarding keeping our son busy. However it wasn't the kind of busy he needed. Plus he didn't want to be bossed by his mom at a very early age. He needed a dad physically in his life more, to follow around and work with.

Your son might do fine not doing travelling sports if you are home more, and can do guy things with him, or at least back up your wife when she assigns him chores and tells him to go outside and play, or to call a friend to go to the park with etc.

Someone also recommended lots of communication with your wife while you are travelling. That type of communication only goes so far. Your wife needs you face to face, to reach out and touch your face, to feel your hugs. Phone calls and texts will not keep a marriage together.

A job at Walmart won't work, and the right job will take time to find. However, in your situation, I believe that the first step is for you to get yourself back home on a regular basis. Not all women need that, but your wife and your marriage are suffering and need you around. I don't believe she wants to work at night. She is just used to your being gone, is resentful and is resisting being vulnerable to you.


----------



## ZDog377

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> ZDog, can you at least consider the idea of looking for a job that will allow you and your family to maintain your standard of living?
> 
> If you are home more, you will get a better feel of the whole situation. You'll find out if your wife is going to warm up to you, and you both can work on your relationship together.
> 
> You will also be around to participate more in your children's lives, and regularly assess the sports issues.
> 
> I was like CynthiaDe regarding keeping our son busy. However it wasn't the kind of busy he needed. Plus he didn't want to be bossed by his mom at a very early age. He needed a dad physically in his life more, to follow around and work with.
> 
> Your son might do fine not doing travelling sports if you are home more, and can do guy things with him, or at least back up your wife when she assigns him chores and tells him to go outside and play, or to call a friend to go to the park with etc.
> 
> Someone also recommended lots of communication with your wife while you are travelling. That type of communication only goes so far. Your wife needs you face to face, to reach out and touch your face, to feel your hugs. Phone calls and texts will not keep a marriage together.
> 
> A job at Walmart won't work, and the right job will take time to find. However, in your situation, I believe that the first step is for you to get yourself back home on a regular basis. Not all women need that, but your wife and your marriage are suffering and need you around. I don't believe she wants to work at night. She is just used to your being gone, is resentful and is resisting being vulnerable to you.


I've always considered it, but looking for something that is making my salary now plus an extra 10K or so is hard. I need the extra 10K because I would be paying more upkeep on a car, fuel, and expenses for food. I've been looking for something that keeps me home at night but allows me to be working out in the field during the day. 

The whole reason she is wanting to work the night shift (this is what she tells me) is that it would allow her to watch the kids during the day and then she could sleep when I got home. I brought up the point that while this would work in an ideal world, what would happen if I had to stay over or something like that. 

I have tried doing guy things with my oldest, but he doesn't seem to want any part of it. He would go nuts without the traveling team, I already tried killing it for the basketball season we are in now. He threw a hissy fit like he normally does. He will also go outside and play, but it is rarely by himself. It either has to be a friend or one of us that go with him. 

I'm not trying to kill ideas right away, just show we have been down that road without much success.


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## Marc878

Meanwhile back at the ranch someone has to pay the bills.

Or am I missing something?????


----------



## Cynthia

He could work at Walmart and meet their basic needs! Okay, maybe if they also had welfare. Good grief. I cannot even imagine. A low wage job like that has a whole other set of problems and stresses.

Some of the comments made are completely out in left field.


----------



## Marc878

CynthiaDe said:


> He could work at Walmart and meet their basic needs! Okay, maybe if they also had welfare. Good grief. I cannot even imagine. A low wage job like that has a whole other set of problems and stresses.
> 
> Some of the comments made are completely out in left field.


Cynthia, please stop being so negative. Look at the bright side.

You get to wear all those shiny little badges n stuff!!!! :grin2:


----------



## ConanHub

CynthiaDe said:


> He could work at Walmart and meet their basic needs! Okay, maybe if they also had welfare. Good grief. I cannot even imagine. A low wage job like that has a whole other set of problems and stresses.
> 
> Some of the comments made are completely out in left field.


You're right. McDonalds is a superior choice.

Just leveling a little sarcastic humor at Rubi and those saying he has a point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

ConanHub said:


> You're right. McDonalds is a superior choice.
> 
> Just leveling a little sarcastic humor at Rubi and those saying he has a point.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're right. Don't acknowledge that him being gone all the time isn't working, just bash his wife and comment on how she should just be grateful he pays bills.

That'll help his marriage.

His wife is detached from him. Why do you think that is?

Clearly he can handle this arrangement but his wife can't.

I'm sure wal mart and mcdonalds comments will have her falling into bed with him.

Good luck with that.

I'm outta here now.


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## Cynthia

Marc878 said:


> Cynthia, please stop being so negative. Look at the bright side.
> 
> You get to wear all those shiny little badges n stuff!!!! :grin2:


Oh yeah, that would make poverty totally worth it. Right. :wink2:


----------



## just got it 55

ZDog377 said:


> We had a talk today and I mentioned that I was going to be looking for a job at home and asked her where she would get a job. She said she would probably get something working over nights so we could save on day care. She also said that she didn't think I could handle being at home all time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


ZD Your wife is simply not capable of putting the marriage first as presently constituted.

I have seen the Mom first mentality up close and personal.

You need to convince her by your actions what you expect in return to regrow you relationship
@jld will advise you to lead the way in your M and I fully agree in this case

But your wife needs to want this too It appears not
and you better get to the bottom of this.

If you have little time at home make every moment count.
This will not happen over night you will have setbacks and frustrations.You will need to work your way through them without showing them and find constructive ways to cope.

However you and your wife need to find the balance of being parents and husband/wife.

Maintain a pleasant and happy disposition and continue to rebuild the emotional connection.

Most importantly Be a man That's what women want.

Keep at it

55


----------



## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> You're right. Don't acknowledge that him being gone all the time isn't working, just bash his wife and comment on how she should just be grateful he pays bills.
> 
> That'll help his marriage.
> 
> His wife is detached from him. Why do you think that is?
> 
> Clearly he can handle this arrangement but his wife can't.
> 
> I'm sure wal mart and mcdonalds comments will have her falling into bed with him.
> 
> Good luck with that.
> 
> I'm outta here now.


My first post , as well as many others, already hit that area hard. Rubi is distorting what is being said by OP and flat out ignoring several things he has already stated to make a point.

He also brought up the ridiculous suggestion for working at WalMart.

I agree that work needs to be done, just like you, but I don't think twisting facts and ignoring others while suggesting OP work at WalMart to fix it has any validity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

So we are going out to dinner tonight and then she is going to see a movie with a friend later on tonight. Hopefully we are on the right path.....


----------



## ConanHub

ZDog377 said:


> So we are going out to dinner tonight and then she is going to see a movie with a friend later on tonight. Hopefully we are on the right path.....


Umm... I guess?

How about dinner and a movie?

Maybe it's a start?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> So we are going out to dinner tonight and then she is going to see a movie with a friend later on tonight. Hopefully we are on the right path.....


It's a step in the right direction anyway.


----------



## jld

CynthiaDe said:


> It's a step in the right direction anyway.


The dinner out part?


----------



## Marc878

ZDog377 said:


> So we are going out to dinner tonight and then she is going to see a movie with a friend later on tonight. Hopefully we are on the right path.....


So you don't get much time home she's stuck in mommy mode and after you're going out to dinner she's going to a movie with a friend????

Obviously she's putting no effort into this. Am I missing something?????


----------



## NotLikeYou

ZDog377 said:


> So we are going out to dinner tonight and then she is going to see a movie with a friend later on tonight. Hopefully we are on the right path.....


Naw, you're not. 

But you're trying desperately to get onto it, and that counts.

Now, Rubicon has done an excellent job of pointing out all the different ways that you fail as a husband and a man. Well, okay, actually, the ways you would fail as a sensitive, caring, feminist-type of man.

So, since Rubi left out a couple of the things you do right, and get no credit for from your wife, or from Rubi, let's make a list.

The job. The idea that you love the job so much that you're willing to forego time spent with your family sounds great, except that you're not divorced. It is a SACRIFICE that you are making, and it is a big one. It's nice that you enjoy the job, but it is a burden nonetheless, and keep it in your mind as such.

The eldest child. He isn't your biological child. You stepping up and being a father for him is an act of service that your wife literally cannot repay to you. She should be eternally grateful to you for doing this for her son. Keep in mind that she doesn't demonstrate any gratitude to you at all for this.

And ignore any posters named after rivers who downplay this.

So.

You've gotten a whole heckuva lot of advice here, much of it giving you great ideas on how to be more accommodating to your wife.

You've had some really nice conversations with her.

You did some laundry for her!

You're buying her dinner tonight, Valentine's Day weekend!

You're letting her go out with somebody she'd rather spend time with than you, on Valentine's Day weekend!

Ooops, sorry, she's getting to spend time with a dear friend on Valentine's Day weekend.


You must be getting all the intimacy you can handle, nowadays!

What? You're not? Well, what's up with that?

Hmmmm.

Looking at it from the outside, I'd have to say that you're doing it wrong.

It looks like the more you do, the more helpful and accommodating you are to her, the, well, the more things remain the same.

See, she doesn't love you, or respect you. She doesn't even really like you. She certainly doesn't desire you. She does not appreciate the things you bring to the relationship.

Don't get me wrong- she'll talk to you for 30 minutes, here and there. If she can't fake being asleep, she'll chat with you, feeding you a handful of crumbs, figuratively speaking.

But taking you seriously, and putting any kind of sincere, sustained effort into making you happy?

Not happening. Not as long as you're jumping through hoops for her.

It seems like you would be better off finding something else to do with your time than look for emotional or other intimacy with your wife.

(I'd like to specifically add here that that last sentence is not any kind of code for "find somebody else to have sex with").

Find some hobbies. Renew old friendships. Get a later flight out of whichever city you're in, and explore it for a few hours before you have to return home. Find some things to do with the kids that don't require or involve the wife. Schedule some time to spend with your parents. In person.

Give your wife and her needs the same importance that she gives you. Right now, all you are to her is a paycheck. A source of funds that lets her do what she wants in life. Your needs don't matter.

This should make you very angry.

So I suggest that you channel your vital energies into things other than your wife.

The way she is treating you, you should be the one who feels "touched out."

Feeling unloved by your partner is a lousy way to live. Live some other way.


----------



## Cynthia

CynthiaDe said:


> It's a step in the right direction anyway.





jld said:


> The dinner out part?


Yes, the dinner out part and her wanting to go out with him.

I don't necessarily think you need to do more housework for your wife. The problem is that you two are not connecting. 
My husband used to work out of town a lot. I am a homeschool mom. One of the reasons we homeschooled had to do with my husband's schedule. I used to pack up the kids and a box for each kid with their work in it, then we would go stay with him. We would get a suite with a kitchen. Husband would come back from work, take a nap while the kids were playing in the pool, then we'd have dinner together, which I usually made. Yes, I was busy and took on a lot, but I made sure I took the kids to friend's houses where they could play and I could visit with the mom. Sometimes we'd make dinner together and eat together as families.

There are lots of things that can be done to make it a better situation for all without dad kowtowing to his wife.


----------



## ZDog377

Marc878 said:


> So you don't get much time home she's stuck in mommy mode and after you're going out to dinner she's going to a movie with a friend????
> 
> Obviously she's putting no effort into this. Am I missing something?????


I will add that the friend is going through a divorce, guess it's a support buddy thing? Dinner went well, our basketball game from 4 PM today got moved tomorrow to 8 AM. Fun times there.


----------



## ZDog377

NotLikeYou said:


> Naw, you're not.
> 
> But you're trying desperately to get onto it, and that counts.
> 
> Now, Rubicon has done an excellent job of pointing out all the different ways that you fail as a husband and a man. Well, okay, actually, the ways you would fail as a sensitive, caring, feminist-type of man.
> 
> So, since Rubi left out a couple of the things you do right, and get no credit for from your wife, or from Rubi, let's make a list.
> 
> The job. The idea that you love the job so much that you're willing to forego time spent with your family sounds great, except that you're not divorced. It is a SACRIFICE that you are making, and it is a big one. It's nice that you enjoy the job, but it is a burden nonetheless, and keep it in your mind as such.
> 
> The eldest child. He isn't your biological child. You stepping up and being a father for him is an act of service that your wife literally cannot repay to you. She should be eternally grateful to you for doing this for her son. Keep in mind that she doesn't demonstrate any gratitude to you at all for this.
> 
> And ignore any posters named after rivers who downplay this.
> 
> So.
> 
> You've gotten a whole heckuva lot of advice here, much of it giving you great ideas on how to be more accommodating to your wife.
> 
> You've had some really nice conversations with her.
> 
> You did some laundry for her!
> 
> You're buying her dinner tonight, Valentine's Day weekend!
> 
> You're letting her go out with somebody she'd rather spend time with than you, on Valentine's Day weekend!
> 
> Ooops, sorry, she's getting to spend time with a dear friend on Valentine's Day weekend.
> 
> 
> You must be getting all the intimacy you can handle, nowadays!
> 
> What? You're not? Well, what's up with that?
> 
> Hmmmm.
> 
> Looking at it from the outside, I'd have to say that you're doing it wrong.
> 
> It looks like the more you do, the more helpful and accommodating you are to her, the, well, the more things remain the same.
> 
> See, she doesn't love you, or respect you. She doesn't even really like you. She certainly doesn't desire you. She does not appreciate the things you bring to the relationship.
> 
> Don't get me wrong- she'll talk to you for 30 minutes, here and there. If she can't fake being asleep, she'll chat with you, feeding you a handful of crumbs, figuratively speaking.
> 
> But taking you seriously, and putting any kind of sincere, sustained effort into making you happy?
> 
> Not happening. Not as long as you're jumping through hoops for her.
> 
> It seems like you would be better off finding something else to do with your time than look for emotional or other intimacy with your wife.
> 
> (I'd like to specifically add here that that last sentence is not any kind of code for "find somebody else to have sex with").
> 
> Find some hobbies. Renew old friendships. Get a later flight out of whichever city you're in, and explore it for a few hours before you have to return home. Find some things to do with the kids that don't require or involve the wife. Schedule some time to spend with your parents. In person.
> 
> Give your wife and her needs the same importance that she gives you. Right now, all you are to her is a paycheck. A source of funds that lets her do what she wants in life. Your needs don't matter.
> 
> This should make you very angry.
> 
> So I suggest that you channel your vital energies into things other than your wife.
> 
> The way she is treating you, you should be the one who feels "touched out."
> 
> Feeling unloved by your partner is a lousy way to live. Live some other way.


I will say the job has always been something in the back of my mind ever since my middle son was born. It got harder once he was able to say he missed me and stuff. We (my wife and I) had talked about it and said that if I could find something that would make me the same amount per year or more, I would apply for. So far I've only had that happen once or twice. 

I try and help out with as much as I can at home because she is always saying she is exhausted and I figure the more I can help at home the better. She has gone to the doctor to get the exhaustion checked out, but that is something for later on. 

I think the respect for the job is what "hurts" the most. We come from very different backgrounds on that. Her dad would always request off for any of her events and always make time for her. I can count on one hand the number of times I saw my dad take off work. My mom was always there for stuff, but not him. I didn't realize until my later teenage years how much I respected that.


----------



## ZDog377

So last night turned out OK, it was a start. Dinner was nice, we didn't do much after. She went out to the movie with her friend and didn't get home until after 12. We did have some "activities" when she got home, I wasn't allowed to touch her since she said she wasn't feeling good. She only mentioned it after dinner and I figured it was because she ate too much. I explained how I was kind of frustrated this morning because of that, she said I was making her feel bad that she went out with the friend last night. 

I guess we will see if anything happens tonight.........


----------



## just got it 55

ZDog377 said:


> So we are going out to dinner tonight and then she is going to see a movie with a friend later on tonight. Hopefully we are on the right path.....


Not even close

55


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Is this friend male or female?


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> Is this friend male or female?


The friend is female, she is currently going through a divorce.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

K, just double checking. I would never ditch my H on a date night for a girl friend divorce or not, especially when he's already gone all the time.


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> K, just double checking. I would never sitch my H on a date night for a girl friend divorce or not, especially when he's already gone all the time.


I wasn't thrilled, but she hasn't done anything for herself in a while. If that makes any sense?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> I wasn't thrilled, but she hasn't done anything for herself in a while. If that makes any sense?


Understood. I would have made it for another day. My H gets my time over girlfriends, always.


----------



## norajane

ZDog377 said:


> The friend is female, she is currently going through a divorce.


That's concerning. Sometimes divorce is 'catching.' Meaning, she's providing tissues while her friend catalogs every bad thing her husband ever did...can make a person start thinking about their own dissatisfaction and making it out to be divorce-worthy.

How late did that movie start. Midnight seems late to come home. Did they go out drinking afterwards?


----------



## ZDog377

norajane said:


> That's concerning. Sometimes divorce is 'catching.' Meaning, she's providing tissues while her friend catalogs every bad thing her husband ever did...can make a person start thinking about their own dissatisfaction and making it out to be divorce-worthy.
> 
> How late did that movie start. Midnight seems late to come home. Did they go out drinking afterwards?


Movie started at 9:30, she did have to run to Walmart for some stuff after. She's definitely not a drinker, I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen her drink and that's counting our wedding.


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## Blossom Leigh

Did you verify she was with this friend? And I'm talking hard core evidence, not just her word for it.


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> Did you verify she was with this friend? And I'm talking hard core evidence, not just her word for it.


Yeah, I heard her in the background when she called me after the movie. Is that what you mean or are you hinting at something else?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## x598

ZDOG....

I see your wife is "touched out" and EXPECTS you to be OK with it.

I would tell her your are "talked out" and have no desire for any meaningful communication with her.

she should be OK with that. since its acceptable that she not meet your needs, I wouldn't bother meeting hers.

I say this because you have brought it to her attention what your needs are, she has discounted it. this isn't a passive aggressive move.

in fact, if she calls you out on it, I would even frame it that way to her......marriage is a mutual metting of needs.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> Yeah, I heard her in the background when she called me after the movie. Is that what you mean or are you hinting at something else?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yea, I just feel this behavior very odd. Affair like...


----------



## x598

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yea, I just feel this behavior very odd. Affair like...


and I agree and would not be surprised. time to dig deep.


----------



## ZDog377

x598 said:


> and I agree and would not be surprised. time to dig deep.


I've looked at phone and text records and don't see anything weird there. Anywhere else to look?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> I've looked at phone and text records and don't see anything weird there. Anywhere else to look?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not the expert in that area. @GusPolinski is a good resource as well as others here.


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> I'm not the expert in that area. @GusPolinski is a good resource as well as others here.


Thanks, I will PM him. Hopefully there is some stuff I can do from out of town. Sucks to be thinking like this....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

Let me first say that, when I initially saw this thread a few months ago, I found myself nodding along w/ many of the ladies here. After all, it just makes sense to me that a SAHM w/ 2 young kids (one of which is still nursing) could feel "touched out" at the end of each day, and I was pretty confident that -- given what @ZDog377 had contributed up to that point -- there wasn't any funny business going on.

Now, though? I'm not _quite_ as certain.

So now I have two questions for ZDog...

1. How much do you know regarding the circumstances of your wife's friend's divorce?

2. I might as well make it my signature...

What kind of phone does your wife use?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> Thanks, I will PM him. Hopefully there is some stuff I can do from out of town. Sucks to be thinking like this....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't go over board, just reasonable boundary check around your marriage.


----------



## ZDog377

GusPolinski said:


> Let me first say that, when I initially saw this thread a few months ago, I found myself nodding along w/ many of the ladies here. After all, it just makes sense to me that a SAHM w/ 2 young kids (one of which is still nursing) could feel "touched out" at the end of each day, and I was pretty confident that -- given what @ZDog377 had contributed up to that point -- there wasn't any funny business going on.
> 
> Now, though? I'm not _quite_ as certain.
> 
> So now I have two questions for ZDog...
> 
> 1. How much do you know regarding the circumstances of your wife's friend's divorce?
> 
> 2. I might as well make it my signature...
> 
> What kind of phone does your wife use?


1. I don't know much about the divorce. I know it had to do with him traveling and expecting everything to be perfect when he came home. I don't know much else beside that. 

2. The phone is an LG Lancet, Android based. 

It was just confusing when she came home that night she was all over me but didn't allow me to do anything besides rub her back. She was wide awake that night but fell asleep in the recliner with our middle son last night about 10 PM. I even went out and bought a corkscrew because she finally found a wine that she liked and we were going to share a glass.


----------



## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> It was just confusing when she came home that night she was all over me but didn't allow me to do anything besides rub her back. She was wide awake that night but fell asleep in the recliner with our middle son last night about 10 PM. I even went out and bought a corkscrew because she finally found a wine that she liked and we were going to share a glass.


And you didn't say anything about it to her? You have complained of similar things before. Set a boundary. Tell her that you want to make love to her, but you will not accept being teased. She is teasing you. She should not start something she is unwilling to follow through on. You can tell her that bluntly.


----------



## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> And you didn't say anything about it to her? You have complained of similar things before. Set a boundary. Tell her that you want to make love to her, but you will not accept being teased. She is teasing you. She should not start something she is unwilling to follow through on. You can tell her that bluntly.


She told me tonight she was trying the wine and leaving the rest for us this weekend. I can bring things up to her until I'm blue in the face but it doesn't change anything if she won't go along with it. I did tell her tonight that she needs to find a way to turn off "mommy mode" and just be normal every now and then. She told me didn't know what that meant. I told her to ask some of her friends how much time they spend together with their spouses minus the kids. 

I'm betting the answer comes back as not much.......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cynthia

The next time she starts in on revving you up, ask her if she plans to follow through and make love or if she is teasing you again. If she plays dumb or whatever, tell her to stop it unless she is ready to be a big girl and do what she's asking for.


----------



## Cynthia

Really, Zdog, you have got to set some boundaries and be stronger. She is disrespecting you. It's time to call her bluff and not tolerate it. You are letting her walk all over you.

Look, I understand being alone with little kids while my husband is working. Through many years of our marriage he was working swing shift and we only had one car, I had to do all my grocery shopping before he even got out of bed in the morning, be home to get him lunch, then he took the car to work. He also used to travel 3/4 of the time and I was taking care of the home front. I get how she can feel overwhelmed and touched out. I nursed all three of my kids for a long time. I get it. But I do not get the disrespect she is showing you. Her situation is her choice. She can choose to do something about her situation, but she hasn't. 

I made sure I had plenty of time to spend with my friends and their kids. When we only had one car, my friends would come over and bring their kids. We would have tea, nurse our babies, and have a fun time together. We would often get together as families on the weekends, so our husbands had downtime and social time as well. We took turns watching each other's kids. We supported each other. Your wife doesn't seem to be solution oriented and seems to have shut down. If this continues, it will not end well for any of you, especially the kids.


----------



## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> The next time she starts in on revving you up, ask her if she plans to follow through and make love or if she is teasing you again. If she plays dumb or whatever, tell her to stop it unless she is ready to be a big girl and do what she's asking for.


She did call my dad today and see if him and his wife would mind us and the kids staying over Saturday night and her and I could possibly go out and grab a late snack or something after the kids are in bed. He has a hot tub too that we can go in too. It would be nice since I'm working the concession stand for the basketball tournament at our elementary school this weekend. 

She's taking initiative which is nice, we will see how long it lasts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cynthia

That's good, but don't expect anything from her and don't let her tease you. If you continue to allow it, she will continue to do it. Just say no to teasing.


----------



## ConanHub

ZDog377 said:


> , we will see how long it lasts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lose any semblance of this statement in your attitude.

It lacks confidence and seems almost whiny.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

ConanHub said:


> Lose any semblance of this statement in your attitude.
> 
> It lacks confidence and seems almost whiny.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Everything so far has been a couple at a time, nothing consistent.


----------



## ConanHub

ZDog377 said:


> Everything so far has been a couple at a time, nothing consistent.


Yup but this is confidence 101.

Becoming more attractive to your wife will not hurt a thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

Just wanted to take a minute and thank everybody for the advice so far. Here's to having a good weekend and seeing where things lead.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

So I'm on the way home (day early too) and she calls to see if she can go to the gym with her friend later after the youngest goes to bed. I said no problem since I knew we already have plans for Saturday night. She said when she got home we could shower and go upstairs to have fun. 

I called her back a little later and asked what time she thought she would be home. I mentioned that I've been getting up at 5:30 this week and have been falling asleep around 10, but could stay up. She then says she's changed her mind since she hasnt heard back from the friend and it seems like I'm giving her the third degree about it. 

Long argument ensues and she says she has talked to friends with kids and they don't get much alone time either. 

I see a longer talk in our future tonigh .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cynthia

You are getting sucked into argument. This is going nowhere but downhill fast.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> So I'm on the way home (day early too) and she calls to see if she can go to the gym with her friend later after the youngest goes to bed. I said no problem since I knew we already have plans for Saturday night. She said when she got home we could shower and go upstairs to have fun.
> 
> I called her back a little later and asked what time she thought she would be home. I mentioned that I've been getting up at 5:30 this week and have been falling asleep around 10, but could stay up. She then says she's changed her mind since she hasnt heard back from the friend and it seems like I'm giving her the third degree about it.
> 
> Long argument ensues and she says she has talked to friends with kids and they don't get much alone time either.
> 
> I see a longer talk in our future tonigh .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are getting played.


----------



## Cynthia

Blossom Leigh said:


> You are getting played.


Agreed. That is exactly what is happening. This is the same as her teasing you physically and not following through. Then she turns it all back on you. Whatever reason she is for feeling how she does, there is no excuse for how she is behaving towards you. Stop enabling her. Stop getting sucked in. The least of your worries is whether or not you are going to get laid this weekend, but that seems to be blinding you to what is really going on.


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> You are getting played.


As in I'm just being used for a paycheck?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> As in I'm just being used for a paycheck?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She is teasing you and playing you. At this point you might be just a paycheck, but it's obvious that she is not into you as a lover or a friend. She is stringing you along and then turning it around to try to make it look like you did something to cause it and you are taking it all in trying to make nice so she will have sex with you. She does not appear to have any interest in having sex with you, but she is using that to control you by making you think there is a possibility, then pulling the rug out, and blaming you for it. She never had any intention of being sexual with you in the first place.
That's how it looks from here anyway.


----------



## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> She is teasing you and playing you. At this point you might be just a paycheck, but it's obvious that she is not into you as a lover or a friend. She is stringing you along and then turning it around to try to make it look like you did something to cause it and you are taking it all in trying to make nice so she will have sex with you. She does not appear to have any interest in having sex with you, but she is using that to control you by making you think there is a possibility, then pulling the rug out, and blaming you for it. She never had any intention of being sexual with you in the first place.
> That's how it looks from here anyway.


After today I don't think I'm going into any weekend expecting anything. Its not worth the let down when something doesn't happen. I've mentioned that I'm not happy too much anymore and it doesn't seem to faze her. I have some projects I need to start working on for myself.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> As in I'm just being used for a paycheck?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And she thinks you are a dumbass

Although you aren't.... 

Time to pull out you s*** kickers


----------



## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> After today I don't think I'm going into any weekend expecting anything. Its not worth the let down when something doesn't happen. I've mentioned that I'm not happy too much anymore and it doesn't seem to faze her. I have some projects I need to start working on for myself.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do not talk to her about your feelings. She obviously does not care and it will only make you look weaker to her. You do not want to come across as a jerk, but you also don't want to appear like a wimp.
Spending time with the kids and working on projects sounds like a good idea.


----------



## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> Do not talk to her about your feelings. She obviously does not care and it will only make you look weaker to her. You do not want to come across as a jerk, but you also don't want to appear like a wimp.
> Spending time with the kids and working on projects sounds like a good idea.


Yeah, I've finally realized she doesn't care too much about feelings. I've always told her I don't mind her doing stuff with her friends, just give me some notice if its on a weekend. 

I just wish I could figure out what and when caused her to change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## mary35

ZDog377 said:


> Yeah, I've finally realized she doesn't care too much about feelings. I've always told her I don't mind her doing stuff with her friends, just give me some notice if its on a weekend.
> 
> I just wish I could figure out what and when caused her to change.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Doesn't matter what and when, what matters is what are you going to do about it now that you recognize that things have changed for her. And is it a deal breaker for you if she does not change - this time for the better.


----------



## ConanHub

How much of this bvllshyt are you willing to swallow?

Have you read any books?

How about No More Mr. Nice Guy?

I would simply tell her we are through and start the divorce process.

Ask her if she wants to use a mediator and start finding out how to divide assets and work on a co-parenting plan.

I'm not joking. She thinks nothing of you and if she won't make a move towards MC and fixing her part of this marriage, she is fvcking it up every bit as bad as you ever did, probably more so, then CAN her and hire someone who can and will do the job.

If she doesn't do a 180 and immediately start serious work on her end, continue with the filing.

You are really not that bad of a husband.

I have had to travel extensively during my marriage and Mrs. Conan has never even come close to disrespecting me the way your wife is you.

Infidelity seems like a high possibility here but even if she isn't, she might as well for how shytty she is treating you.

Time for a wake up partner.

Time to stop this bytchwad ride and demand your money back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

She boxes you in so she can go play. I would like to know who she's playing with.... I smell a rat.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

ZDog377 said:


> As in I'm just being used for a paycheck?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


More like you just one of the 'rents, or the HS bf.

Fun to hang with if in the mood, a must-have to be seen to have, and totally forgetable when the cool kids go out to do their thing. You're the home thing, not the fun thing; so don't really get a second thought.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

ZDog377 said:


> I told her to ask some of her friends how much time they spend together with their spouses minus the kids.
> 
> I'm betting the answer comes back as not much.......


Don't run your life based on someone elses' highlights reel (ie how their lives are or how they say they are) so may get more, some may get less, some will lie, and there truth really says anothing about how things should be for both of you. (yes, the first part is paraphrased from Uncle George)


----------



## Cynthia

Blossom Leigh said:


> She boxes you in so she can go play. I would like to know who she's playing with.... I smell a rat.


I do too. I'm really beginning to wonder what is going on. I was in a similar situation to what she is in and I never treated my husband the way your wife is treating you. We worked together to find solutions. If my husband had come home on the weekend and didn't want sex, I would have been hurt, confused, and suspicious.

I'm sorry you can't talk to your wife about your feelings, but you can still talk to her about your disapproval of her bad behavior, such as her teasing. When she does that, call her on it. Let her know that her behavior is not acceptable. If she has a problem, it is her responsibility to talk to you about it and work together to correct it. Treating you the way she is is not the answer.


----------



## ZDog377

I guess the really hard part about this is we lost a good friend about a week ago. It was the wife of our old neighbor, kind of the first friends we had as a couple. She passed away suddenly in the middle of the night in her sleep. She was only 38 and I thought this would bring us closer by showing us you can't take each other for granted.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> I guess the really hard part about this is we lost a good friend about a week ago. It was the wife of our old neighbor, kind of the first friends we had as a couple. She passed away suddenly in the middle of the night in her sleep. She was only 38 and I thought this would bring us closer by showing us you can't take each other for granted.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It should have which leads me to believe she is already checked out of the marriage and is about to walk.

UNLESS, it's her personality


----------



## Hicks

I don't think your wife has evil intentions. In the structure of her life, you play a supporting role. This is partially due to your travel and partially due to you and she allowing your marital life to develop naturally rather than be maintained. I'll make an analogy. Your marriage is a garden. It will look one way if you leave it alone. But can also be made to look any way the gardener wants it. You need to be the gardener.

Your wife has the life she wants more or less with her kids and her friends and you popping in on weekends. She also knows that you are important to her life and recognizes on some level that you need sex to be happy. She knows you are voicing some displeasure... So she sees a simple path to trade sex for working out with her friend (she gets what she wants, and she gives you what you want).... Then, she realized she was not going to get what she wants therefore no reason to give you what you want.

She is following her own lead or no lead in terms of prioritizing her marriage. Where you need to think about is asserting your role as an advocate for the marriage itself, the concept of marriage, the defnitiion of marriage, the benefits to all of you to be involved in a good functioning marriage and family. it's really the structure of your marriage that need to be fixed. The conversations are not about "lets go out on date night and have sex after". It should be about does she respect your contribution? Do you respect her contribution? Is this set up acceptable to both of you? Are you both willing to focus extra hard on maintaining a marital connection given the travel you do? She just doesn't see your value. And it's up to you to show it to her. You do this by making her feel good around you and making her belive in the higher purpose of a strong and fulfilling marriage.


----------



## Sawney Beane

Hicks said:


> I don't think your wife has evil intentions. In the structure of her life, you play a supporting role. This is partially due to your travel and partially due to you and she allowing your marital life to develop naturally rather than be maintained. I'll make an analogy. Your marriage is a garden. It will look one way if you leave it alone. But can also be made to look any way the gardener wants it. You need to be the gardener.
> 
> Your wife has the life she wants more or less with her kids and her friends and you popping in on weekends. She also knows that you are important to her life and recognizes on some level that you need sex to be happy. She knows you are voicing some displeasure... So she sees a simple path to trade sex for working out with her friend (she gets what she wants, and she gives you what you want).... Then, she realized she was not going to get what she wants therefore no reason to give you what you want.
> 
> She is following her own lead or no lead in terms of prioritizing her marriage. Where you need to think about is asserting your role as an advocate for the marriage itself, the concept of marriage, the defnitiion of marriage, the benefits to all of you to be involved in a good functioning marriage and family. it's really the structure of your marriage that need to be fixed. The conversations are not about "lets go out on date night and have sex after". It should be about does she respect your contribution? Do you respect her contribution? Is this set up acceptable to both of you? Are you both willing to focus extra hard on maintaining a marital connection given the travel you do? She just doesn't see your value. And it's up to you to show it to her. You do this by making her feel good around you and making her belive in the higher purpose of a strong and fulfilling marriage.


She has the life/marriage she wants. Why is she going to be inspired to work hard to get something she has no desire for? 

To her, the husband showing his value is like displaying best quality pork pies outside a synagogue. How good they are is irrelevant, you aren't offering anything people want.


----------



## jld

Hicks said:


> You do this by making her feel good around you.


That's it, Hicks.

It can be an opportunity for him to learn how to do that, through his own self-improvement. That could rekindle her passion.

At the same time, people have to be themselves. And sometimes people find they are not truly compatible, or simply grow apart. Sometimes love dies.

It is better to accept that, and not try to be controlling about it.

The Serenity prayer comes to mind . . .


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> That's it, Hicks.
> 
> It can be an opportunity for him to learn how to do that, through his own self-improvement. That could rekindle her passion.
> 
> At the same time, people have to be themselves. And sometimes people find they are not truly compatible, or simply grow apart. Sometimes love dies.
> 
> It is better to accept that, and not try to be controlling about it.
> 
> The Serenity prayer comes to mind . . .


I've started to plan out some wood working projects for the house and planning on doing hunting/fishing activities with the kids once the weather breaks. It will at least help me get my mind off it.......


----------



## ZDog377

_Posted via Mobile Device_

This weekend went better than expected. There were some times that I has doubts, but I just kept quiet and didn't say anything. 
@Hicks, are you talking about complimenting her more and things like that or learning new skills to seem more "manly" and desirable?


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## Blossom Leigh

Glad to hear it... y'all needed that. Did she so out like she asked?


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> Glad to hear it... y'all needed that. Did she so out like she asked?


No, she didn't end up going Thursday night. I told her one or two more times she could go but she said she had too much to do. We had a friend over for dinner Friday night then we did have some wine together Friday night. 

Saturday night was good at my dads and last night was probably the best. She even went to the doctors today to take care of something and asked if there was a natural supplement she could take to increase desire. I'm happy with the progress and it was nice to see her not be in mommy mode 100% of the time.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Good, some rebalancing happening. I hope that trend continues and grows.


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> Good, some rebalancing happening. I hope that trend continues and grows.


I hope so as well. It will be tested with baseball season coming up since both of the older boys will be involved.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ZDog377

Had another good weekend and we got to talk last night about what made it work. She said that there was a balance of everybody doing their own thing. She got to spend time with a friend while the kids played and I was able to work on stuff at home. We had sexual activity Thursday night when I got home and also on Sunday night as well . 

There is a chance she will get to go with me for work next week and she asked if I would mind a date night this weekend if she could not go for some reason. 

Another positive weekend in my book ...............


----------



## ZDog377

This past weekend went OK, not as well as last weekend. Definitely a lot busier, sports for the oldest on Friday night and all day Saturday. Then she had an interview for a work from home job on Sunday morning, which she accepted the position. Also had the father-in-law here all weekend and most of this upcoming week. Had some arguments about the kids and finances..........


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Are you feeling settled about the arguments?


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> Are you feeling settled about the arguments?


What do you mean? I'm not happy with the outcome of them if that's what you are asking.


----------



## ConanHub

ZDog377 said:


> What do you mean? I'm not happy with the outcome of them if that's what you are asking.


What were the outcomes?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> What do you mean? I'm not happy with the outcome of them if that's what you are asking.


Yea... that's what I meant. Were you ok with their outcome. Its sad that you aren't. What happened?


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yea... that's what I meant. Were you ok with their outcome. Its sad that you aren't. What happened?


Got into an argument about how I shouldn't yell at the kids in front of her dad, I said if they're doing something wrong they are getting in trouble. She also says I'm upset about her going back to work when I have told her multiple times I'm not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> Got into an argument about how I shouldn't yell at the kids in front of her dad, I said if they're doing something wrong they are getting in trouble. *She also says I'm upset about her going back to work when I have told her multiple times I'm not.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have you put thought into where she is drawing that conclusion from? Are you angry about something else and she is connecting it that way? If you are angry about something else, what is it if you feel like sharing?


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> Have you put thought into where she is drawing that conclusion from? Are you angry about something else and she is connecting it that way? If you are angry about something else, what is it if you feel like sharing?


We have discussed it and both agree that the extra money definitely won't hurt. I just asked her to keep in mind all the other items such as the paying taxes (she will get a 1099 for this job), extra wear and tear on the vehicle and things like that. She will be working home for the majority of the time but there will be one weekend a month that she has to go visit students in their homes. 

The other argument was about my family not coming to enough events, especially my dad/his wife. She feels that I should tell him that it is unacceptable and if he doesn't talk to me after that, it's no big deal. I explained that it's not that he says he will come and changes his mind, he just doesn't commit to coming. She doesn't understand how if her dad can come from hours away, mine can't come from an hour away.


----------



## ConanHub

The situation with your dad isn't under her control or yours.

She can desire more contact with family but she seems to think she can force her will on your father through you.

That is an unrealistic expectation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ConanHub said:


> The situation with your dad isn't under her control or yours.
> 
> She can desire more contact with family but she seems to think she can force her will on your father through you.
> 
> That is an unrealistic expectation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agree


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Your money request was perfectly reasonable. What was her reaction?


----------



## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> Got into an argument about how I shouldn't yell at the kids in front of her dad, I said if they're doing something wrong they are getting in trouble. She also says I'm upset about her going back to work when I have told her multiple times I'm not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you yelling at the kids, as in raising your voice or do you mean verbally correcting them in a calm manner? If you're yelling at your kids, that is verbal abuse. Rather than trying to control them through yelling, teach them self control through encouragement and example.


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> Your money request was perfectly reasonable. What was her reaction?


She found the job online herself, she has been actively looking for a while now. She says she wants her own money as a reason for going back to work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> She found the job online herself, she has been actively looking for a while now. She says she wants her own money as a reason for going back to work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Does that mean the money you make is your own money, as in not hers? You don't have to argue. Let her know that isn't acceptable to you. You share 100% of your money with her and you expect her earnings to go into a shared account. You two should have a budget that includes money that you can what you want with.

Her getting a job and keeping all the money is a huge red flag. Why does she think that is okay? What is your earnings suddenly became your money and not joint funds?


----------



## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> Are you yelling at the kids, as in raising your voice or do you mean verbally correcting them in a calm manner? If you're yelling at your kids, that is verbal abuse. Rather than trying to control them through yelling, teach them self control through encouragement and example.


I mean raising my voice when they don't listen when I tell them something calmly the first time. She does it as well, just thinks we shouldn't when her dad is here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

CynthiaDe said:


> Does that mean the money you make is your own money, as in not hers? You don't have to argue. Let her know that isn't acceptable to you. You share 100% of your money with her and you expect her earnings to go into a shared account. You two should have a budget that includes money that you can what you want with.
> 
> Her getting a job and keeping all the money is a huge red flag. Why does she think that is okay? What is your earnings suddenly became your money and not joint funds?


Yea, I found her attitude very interesting.


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yea, I found her attitude very interesting.


I objected when she said this and I told her I've never said no when she's asked for something for her or the kids within reason of course. She's proven and admitted she's not the best with finances. My pay goes into my account and child support goes into hers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> I objected when she said this and I told her I've never said no when she's asked for something for her or the kids within reason of course. She's proven and admitted she's not the best with finances. My pay goes into my account and child support goes into hers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Every time we come around to one of these discussion, my gut tells me something is "off."


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> Every time we come around to one of these discussion, my gut tells me something is "off."



Can you explain a little?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> Can you explain a little?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I just get the impression she is checked out of the marriage.


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> I just get the impression she is checked out of the marriage.


Minus the arguments this weekend I feel she has been slowly changing. She was more touchy feely this weekend than other weekends before.......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> Minus the arguments this weekend I feel she has been slowly changing. She was more touchy feely this weekend than other weekends before.......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good. I'm glad to hear it.


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> Good. I'm glad to hear it.


Any suggestions on how to keep the good mood going? I'm planning a night at home for her during one of the weekend nights coming up. I'm thinking a nice relaxing bubble bath after the kids are in bed and a candlelight massage after........


----------



## Evinrude58

CynthiaDe said:


> Are you yelling at the kids, as in raising your voice or do you mean verbally correcting them in a calm manner? If you're yelling at your kids, that is verbal abuse. Rather than trying to control them through yelling, teach them self control through encouragement and example.


I would love to meet your kids, if you really have them. Raising your voice is not necessarily verbally abusing them. There's a big freaking difference. Would you calmly encourage them if they're about to run out in front of a car?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> Any suggestions on how to keep the good mood going? I'm planning a night at home for her during one of the weekend nights coming up. I'm thinking a nice relaxing bubble bath after the kids are in bed and a candlelight massage after........


Just be light, relaxed and funny with her headed into that. Cultivate gratitude in your heart. The rest will fall into place.


----------



## farsidejunky

Laugh with her.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Cynthia

Evinrude58 said:


> I would love to meet your kids, if you really have them. Raising your voice is not necessarily verbally abusing them. There's a big freaking difference. Would you calmly encourage them if they're about to run out in front of a car?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have children. I used to yell at them, then came to my senses after realizing how abusive and horrible it was. Now I never yell at them. There is no need to yell at a kid. If they won't do as they are told without having to be yelled at, there are deeper issues that need to be addressed. I worked through my issues and my kids are much happier and better off than they were when I would yell. Thankfully I got a hold of myself while they were all still young enough not to develop the habit themselves.

Yelling out to a child in danger is an entirely different issue than yelling at someone. Calling someone who is far away is also not the same as yelling at someone.



ZDog377 said:


> Any suggestions on how to keep the good mood going? I'm planning a night at home for her during one of the weekend nights coming up. I'm thinking a nice relaxing bubble bath after the kids are in bed and a candlelight massage after........


I agree. Keep it light and no covert contracts. Enjoy being with her and be in the moment.


----------



## ZDog377

We did have a breakthrough today, she told her dad that he needs to stop making comments about how we are raising the kids. He complains that we treat our oldest different than the younger two. 

I'm making her commit to some alone time this weekend for the both of us and some time by herself. I will admit I've been slacking on giving her some time to herself.


----------



## ZDog377

Hardest thing about right now is that she's suoer busy with stuff at the school. She's been working on fund raiser stuff for the past week. Every time I call her to talk, she's busy with it. Part of me wants to tell her she needs to not do it next year, but its really the only adult interaction she gets. 

She's also gone walking the past two nights with the recently separated friend. She's gone around 10 pm and said she would call me in an hour when she was done. The first night she didn't call until 11:30 and last night she didn't call until midnigh . Both times she said they just got to talking and didn't realize the time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> Hardest thing about right now is that she's suoer busy with stuff at the school. She's been working on fund raiser stuff for the past week. Every time I call her to talk, she's busy with it. Part of me wants to tell her she needs to not do it next year, but its really the only adult interaction she gets.
> 
> She's also gone walking the past two nights with the recently separated friend. She's gone around 10 pm and said she would call me in an hour when she was done. The first night she didn't call until 11:30 and last night she didn't call until midnigh . Both times she said they just got to talking and didn't realize the time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I get losing track of time, but if this is an issue for her, she could set the alarm on her phone to remind her.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> Hardest thing about right now is that she's suoer busy with stuff at the school. She's been working on fund raiser stuff for the past week. Every time I call her to talk, she's busy with it. Part of me wants to tell her she needs to not do it next year, but its really the only adult interaction she gets.
> 
> She's also gone walking the past two nights with the recently separated friend. She's gone around 10 pm and said she would call me in an hour when she was done. The first night she didn't call until 11:30 and last night she didn't call until midnigh . Both times she said they just got to talking and didn't realize the time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She goes out walking at 10pm at night??? Who does that?

Now I will say an hour or two talking to a girl friend is NOTHING. When I am away talking with my girlfriends or family my husband KNOWS it's a four hour thing. Minimum.


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> She goes out walking at 10pm at night??? Who does that?
> 
> Now I will say an hour or two talking to a girl friend is NOTHING. When I am away talking with my girlfriends or family my husband KNOWS it's a four hour thing. Minimum.


That's a normal time once all the kids are in bed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## brooklynAnn

I am sorry but you are not seeing something here. Your wife has the energy to go out for a 2 hours walk with her friend at 10 in the night. But does not have the energy to spend time with you. What is wrong with this picture?

I used to be the PTA president for my kids school 4 years in the running. No one wanted to do it. After spending time with kids, spending time with fundraising, which is no fun. Making dinner and taking care of the house in the evening and dealing with kids, homework and bedtime. Where does she have the energy for a two hours walk at 10 in the night?

By 10 I am in bed, do not call, text or think about me. 

Old boy, something else is going on here. You need to figure out what it is.

Hire a PI to start following her or something.


----------



## ZDog377

brooklynAnn said:


> I am sorry but you are not seeing something here. Your wife has the energy to go out for a 2 hours walk with her friend at 10 in the night. But does not have the energy to spend time with you. What is wrong with this picture?
> 
> I used to be the PTA president for my kids school 4 years in the running. No one wanted to do it. After spending time with kids, spending time with fundraising, which is no fun. Making dinner and taking care of the house in the evening and dealing with kids, homework and bedtime. Where does she have the energy for a two hours walk at 10 in the night?
> 
> By 10 I am in bed, do not call, text or think about me.
> 
> Old boy, something else is going on here. You need to figure out what it is.
> 
> Hire a PI to start following her or something.


The walk is supposedly only an hour and then they're talking the rest of the time. That's the story I'm getting. 

I've brought up the change in energy many times. I've been given some BS explanation about it. 

I've done some checking on my own, everything through the ohine (FB, calls, texts) look clean. I haven't done much digging on her computer, but I think that's the next step.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## brooklynAnn

ZDog377 said:


> The walk is supposedly only an hour and then they're talking the rest of the time. That's the story I'm getting.
> 
> I've brought up the change in energy many times. I've been given some BS explanation about it.
> 
> I've done some checking on my own, everything through the ohine (FB, calls, texts) look clean. I haven't done much digging on her computer, but I think that's the next step.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know, newly divorced friend and walks at 10 in the night, don't sound too good. She is putting emphasis on other things but your marriage. Are these evenings when you are home?


----------



## ZDog377

brooklynAnn said:


> I don't know, newly divorced friend aaxnd walks at 10 in the night, don't sound too good. She is putting emphasis on other things but your marriage. Are these evenings when you are home?


No, I'm out of town. I'll be home at the latest tomorrow night. Thr only reason she went these past two nights is that her dad was there with the kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## brooklynAnn

Start digging and get a PI to see if they are really exercising. Something is going on not sure what. She is putting energy into other things but the marriage. My H would never be ok with me going out a 10 in the night to walk and then come home 2 hours later. 

If she wants to walk ,do in when the kids are in school. I am amaze at some of the things that husbands on TAM allow their wives to do. Call me old fashion.

My friend for your marriage to survive you need to find a job closer to home. You wife is acting like a single woman who has no one to answer to. Maybe that is how she feels.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

brooklynAnn said:


> Start digging and get a PI to see if they are really exercising. Something is going on not sure what. She is putting energy into other things but the marriage. My H would never be ok with me going out a 10 in the night to walk and then come home 2 hours later.
> 
> If she wants to walk ,do in when the kids are in school. I am amaze at some of the things that husbands on TAM allow their wives to do. Call me old fashion.
> 
> My friend for your marriage to survive you need to find a job closer to home. You wife is acting like a single woman who has no one to answer to. Maybe that is how she feels.


See Z.... my gut is not the only gut talking that something is "off."

Either that or your wife is REALLY an odd duck, no offense. 

I do not understand her at all.


----------



## ZDog377

brooklynAnn said:


> Start digging and get a PI to see if they are really exercising. Something is going on not sure what. She is putting energy into other things but the marriage. My H would never be ok with me going out a 10 in the night to walk and then come home 2 hours later.
> 
> If she wants to walk ,do in when the kids are in school. I am amaze at some of the things that husbands on TAM allow their wives to do. Call me old fashion.
> 
> My friend for your marriage to survive you need to find a job closer to home. You wife is acting like a single woman who has no one to answer to. Maybe that is how she feels.


She's not going walking with her tonight and won't the whole time I'm home. We will probably go together since the weather is supposed to be nice. 

I've been looking for at home jobs but pay is a major factor and they treat me really well where I am now. In fact, the whole family is probably coming with me on a trip in April.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> She's not going walking with her tonight and won't the whole time I'm home. We will probably go together since the weather is supposed to be nice.
> 
> I've been looking for at home jobs but pay is a major factor and they treat me really well where I am now. In fact, the whole family is probably coming with me on a trip in April.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then how do you even know she is walking with a woman or walking at all since you are not at home?


----------



## brooklynAnn

You have been at this thread a long time. It does not seem that anything have improved and stayed good for any period of time. 

Sometimes, I feel like your wife is playing games with you. 

I cant remember but when you are away, it is the same city or do you move around?


----------



## Cynthia

If I were you, I would purchase a burner phone with GPS and put it in the trunk of her car to determine exactly where she is when she goes out.

Could she be telling the truth? Yes. But at this point, it would do you good to verify that.


----------



## ZDog377

To try and answer all the questions:

- I'm in different cities all the time. I very rarely have more than a few days in the same place. This week I've been in three different cities. 

- I don't know that she's even walking at all. I've taken her word for it since it's not a new hobby or something like that. 

- Things haven't been getting worse as of late. We did have some arguments this past weekend, but things were getting better on Sunday. I've learned things I need to work on as well because of this thread. Her sex drive does seem to be higher than it normally is. 

I'm not expecting change over night. Blossom, I understand where you're coming from. I've even had times where I'm like "WTF?" Things are going in a better direction than they were when I started the thread.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yea, I think its wise to keep some radar out on this one for now.


----------



## happy as a clam

ZDog377 said:


> She found the job online herself, she has been actively looking for a while now. *She says she wants her own money* as a reason for going back to work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


IMHO, given how checked out of the marriage she appears to be, this is not a good sign at all. Does she want to start saving up a nest egg to possibly bolt?

Is she hatching an exit plan on the advice of her friend who is getting a divorce?

You really need to do some digging...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Holdingontoit

She is likely already cheating and planning on getting a divorce. Decent chance there is nothing you can do to turn this around. To have any chance, you would have to switch jobs to a job that does not involve so much travel. Not sure I could suggest in good conscience that you make that drastic a change to your life given how far along the WAW path she seems to be. She is displaying pretty much every red flag of cheating and planning to divorce, so a prudent person would act on that assumption. The more you remain in denial, the less prepared you will be when she drops the bomb. That sound you hear is the sound of the bomb bay doors opening. Or maybe the whistle of the bomb hurtling toward you. A wise person would look for the nearest bunker in which to take shelter. Or you could just wait out in the open to become another splat.


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## ZDog377

Holdingontoit said:


> She is likely already cheating and planning on getting a divorce. Decent chance there is nothing you can do to turn this around. To have any chance, you would have to switch jobs to a job that does not involve so much travel. Not sure I could suggest in good conscience that you make that drastic a change to your life given how far along the WAW path she seems to be. She is displaying pretty much every red flag of cheating and planning to divorce, so a prudent person would act on that assumption. The more you remain in denial, the less prepared you will be when she drops the bomb. That sound you hear is the sound of the bomb bay doors opening. Or maybe the whistle of the bomb hurtling toward you. A wise person would look for the nearest bunker in which to take shelter. Or you could just wait out in the open to become another splat.


If it is as far gone as you say it is, what can I do?


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## john117

Find evidence, and bail regardless.


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## ZDog377

happy as a clam said:


> IMHO, given how checked out of the marriage she appears to be, this is not a good sign at all. Does she want to start saving up a nest egg to possibly bolt?
> 
> Is she hatching an exit plan on the advice of her friend who is getting a divorce?
> 
> You really need to do some digging...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I just brought this up to her again tonight. Her response was that if she sees clothes she likes, she can buy them and not ask me for money. Stuff like that. It will be interesting to see what it gets used for. 

I'm possibly home all next week (on call) and possibly the week after as well. I've already told her that I'm making time for us every night while I'm home and if she wants to go for a walk we can go together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mary35

Stay the course if you are seeing improvements. There is always going to be some backsliding, but as long as there is progress forward, you are doing something right. in the future, Just try to stay calm and discuss things calmly so you are not fighting, but rather working on issues when disagreements come up. Even if she escalates, you don't have to follow suit.

I don't see anything unusual about the walking with the friend, especially given her Dad was there, which is why she could do it. The talking after is also totally normal. However you should be cautious, because there can be a transference of her friends negative feelings about her husband to your wife and then she starts looking at you the same way. Plus when the friend starts dating and stuff it could cause your wife to have feelings of jealousy wanting to do the same, wanting to experience the newness and excitement again. It could also go the other way and make your wife appreciate you more too. 
Just something to keep in check and to discuss if necessary, if their friendship becomes toxic to your marriage.


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## Holdingontoit

What can you do? Find a new job that does not involve so much travel. I know, easier said than done. But if you are leaving your wife alone at home many nights a week with small children so that she rarely gets time off and rarely gets time to do fun things with you, then your marriage will continue to be at risk. You have left the door open because many other guys would be able to provide one important aspect of a relationship that you cannot - time. Time for her to tend to herself and time for you guys to be together. Some very strong marriages can survive lots of separation. Or marriages where neither person has a strong need to spend time together. Does not sound like yours is one of those marriages.


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## ZDog377

I'm going to see what I can dig up these next two weeks. I looked back through text message logs last night and saw some weird stuff. I also caught her in a bit of a lie last night as well. Should be interesting.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

Care to elaborate?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## ZDog377

farsidejunky said:


> Care to elaborate?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Two messages from the walking friend when she was on the way home from her house. 

The lie went like this. We're on fb messenger talking and she says she's going to shower and charge her phone. She says she'll call in an hour. Calls me back and we talk then I hear the dinging for when the car door is open with the keys in it. I ask what's going on and she says she's putting the windows up in the van. Little bit later she asks if she can call me back after she showers. 

She calls back 15 minutes later and I make a comment about the second shower being shorter than the first. I asked some questions and then she says "what's up with all the questions?" I just told her I was confused that's all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

I am not following.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Cynthia

GPS.
Knowing where she is will give you the answers you need.


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## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> Two messages from the walking friend when she was on the way home from her house.
> 
> The lie went like this. We're on fb messenger talking and she says she's going to shower and charge her phone. She says she'll call in an hour. Calls me back and we talk then I hear the dinging for when the car door is open with the keys in it. I ask what's going on and she says she's putting the windows up in the van. Little bit later she asks if she can call me back after she showers.
> 
> She calls back 15 minutes later and I make a comment about the second shower being shorter than the first. I asked some questions and then she says "what's up with all the questions?" I just told her I was confused that's all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So, she gets off FB for reason of a shower, calls you an hour later, you hear her in the car, gives you, rolling up the windows excuse, then gets off the phone again saying for a shower again. Right?


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## Blossom Leigh

What did the two messages say from the walking friend if you feel like sharing?


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## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> What did the two messages say from the walking friend if you feel like sharing?


I haven't had a chance to get her phone yet and look. 

Yes, that would be a summary of the FB issue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ZDog377

Wow, I didn't realize how quickly texts add up. I've gone through the past month of texts (over 1200) and have only found a few that don't come up in her contacts list. That and it's a pain to do while making sure the two younger ones don't run over each other while she's at a meeting.


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## ZDog377

So we stayed over at my dads again last night and had a late night talk. It pretty much summarized that my job is the root cause of all the problems. She feels that she has more stress on the weekends because I'm just another person wanting her time. 

Just really sucks because I poured my heart out to her before this and said that the thing I look forward to most at the end of the week is spending time with her. I told her why I felt she was getting the job and she turned it right back around on me for stuff I did. 

It seems like the more I try and make her feel good about herself the worse things go......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> So we stayed over at my dads again last night and had a late night talk. It pretty much summarized that my job is the root cause of all the problems. She feels that she has more stress on the weekends because I'm just another person wanting her time.
> 
> Just really sucks because I poured my heart out to her before this and said that the thing I look forward to most at the end of the week is spending time with her. I told her why I felt she was getting the job and she turned it right back around on me for stuff I did.
> 
> It seems like the more I try and make her feel good about herself the worse things go......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ugh... Basically she just said she is fine with your job since it keeps you away from her and if she had it her way she would also keep you away on the weekends.


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## farsidejunky

You need to resolve yourself to one thing, then you need to communicate it to her:

"Wife, I love you. I want to be close with you. What we have now is not working for either of us. Either it gets better from both of us working hard to make it so, or it ends."

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Blossom Leigh

FrenchFry said:


> I think the only way to get over that is for OP to actually be around more. To become part of the routine, to become part of family life instead of being the thing that the family works around.
> 
> It's like having a birthday party every weekend after you work all week. Yay, there is a clown, but now I have to clean up all these stupid party cups all over the house.
> 
> At the very least, being home more often and being more involved in the family routines would give you a better grasp on exactly how checked out your wife is.


He definitely needs full assessment on how far she's gone.


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## ZDog377

I don't get it, I feel I was more giving this week than I've been in a while. I tried sending her cute messages every day, I even sent her an email the one night telling her how much I appreciate what she does and that I feel I've become more in love with her. I bought her a nicer nightgown because I told her she would like nice in it. It's going back because it's the wrong size, but she said she really didn't like it anyway. I bought her a nice pair of dress shoes (heels) because I want to spend more time with her and hopefully we can go to a nicer restaurant where should could wear them once or twice a year. Even after I asked her what kind she liked and preferences and stuff, she gets them and says she doesn't like them. She says they're not practical for maybe wearing two times a year and they're not good for chasing kids around in. Back to Amazon those go as well. She's OK with me springing for a $200 kitchen gadget though. 

I even told her that the sex anymore isn't even about the orgasm. I said that it's about spending time together and I feel that's one activity where we can be focused on each other, nothing else. I can't seem to get through to her on that. She pretty much said she's been letting me do things the past couple times because she knows it makes me happy, but she doesn't enjoy it. She said she feels more into it if we get things accomplished during the day and I help her do stuff like wash dishes. I can't do them myself because I somehow do them wrong, but it puts her in the mood when she washes and I dry. 

We discussed a job transition on the way home today. She asked if I would be OK finding something by the time our youngest starts grade school. I said that would be fine. I also explained to her that it's hard to switch because I am treated well at this job. I'm given a good schedule, time off when I ask for it (within reason) and it pays good. I also said that I might be more OK with switching when I'm not the primary breadwinner in the house. My biggest fear is finding a new job and it sucks, but I'm stuck with it because we have no other source of income. I do feel that it's somewhat of a pride thing as well, that I can say I make enough so my wife can stay home with the kids.


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## Blossom Leigh

I'm glad she's discussing things. Cultivating gratitude is definitely affecting you. This is good, but it sounds like her love language is very unique and it may take some study and pondering to learn to speak her language. 

For instance, on the dishes, she has to control the washing, but she wants you beside her. 

Just study her for a while and see where she is giving you green lights.


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## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> I do feel that it's somewhat of a pride thing as well, that I can say I make enough so my wife can stay home with the kids.


Unless you lose your wife due to the job. Relationships require presence.
I agree with FrenchFry that you need to be part of the routine, not a disruption to it. Also you should be an equal in determining what that routine is. There should be a weekend routine where you two are equals working together and enjoying each other and the kids.


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## jld

I guess I am the only one, but I still think he should keep the job.

I miss my husband when he is away, but I want him to be happy in his work, too. Why would I want to jeopardize that? Why would I risk our family's financial situation like that?

Speak her love language, like putting the money into the kitchen gadget instead of shoes. Those shoes are for you, not her. Focus on her.


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## Cynthia

There is always a risk in finding a new job, but that risk could yield a great reward. You don't know until you give it a shot.
If you haven't been able to find anything where you live, you might have to look outside of your current location, but that would require your whole family to move. It is obvious that your current job is not working for your family. It's okay if your wife doesn't like to fly solo. That is a pretty normal response.


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## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> Unless you lose your wife due to the job. Relationships require presence.
> I agree with FrenchFry that you need to be part of the routine, not a disruption to it. Also you should be an equal in determining what that routine is. There should be a weekend routine where you two are equals working together and enjoying each other and the kids.


I've asked to set time aside for us on the weekends. I'm not asking for a whole day, just an hour or two that we can sit and hold each other on the couch. She says we can try, but sometimes life happens and she falls asleep or something comes up. 

Baseball season will be starting again soon so that will take up Sundays and our middle son is doing t ball as well. She also signed me up to help out with that as well. 

Just like tonight.....she found a sweeter wine that she likes. I asked if she wanted to stop and get some tonight. Our oldest is having a friend stay over so I figured we could have a glass ans relax once the younger two were sleeping. She says "no, I really don't like drinking in front of the kids".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

Oh good Lord.... Being with her should not be this complex. 

I don't know how you haven't thrown your hands up in the air and told her "you know what peaches, when you figure out how to let me love you, call me, until then, I'll cya around."

Some women need to learn how to let a man love them and freakin relax. Geeze.


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## ConanHub

jld said:


> I guess I am the only one, but I still think he should keep the job.
> 
> I miss my husband when he is away, but I want him to be happy in his work, too. Why would I want to jeopardize that? Why would I risk our family's financial situation like that?
> 
> Speak her love language, like putting the money into the kitchen gadget instead of shoes. Those shoes are for you, not her. Focus on her.


I agree. Her disconnect will never be solved by him totally conforming to try to please her.

He needs to hold onto what he is and improve as an individual.

If she isn't willing to work on her half, it isn't happening and he doesn't need to destroy his career over such a callous and checked out woman.

If she isn't in love with someone else, she might as well be.

If she won't engage, call off this farce.

You are begging and scraping as she wipes her feet on your face.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

I think she is just focused on her role as mother, Conan. Hardly unusual.


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## Blossom Leigh

ConanHub said:


> I agree. Her disconnect will never be solved by him totally conforming to try to please her.
> 
> He needs to hold onto what he is and improve as an individual.
> 
> If she isn't willing to work on her half, it isn't happening and he doesn't need to destroy his career over such a callous and checked out woman.
> 
> If she isn't in love with someone else, she might as well be.
> 
> If she won't engage, call off this farce.
> 
> You are begging and scraping as she wipes her feet on your face.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely agree. Z, you weren't put on this planet to twist yourself into a friggen pretzel, sticking you right pinky toe into your left ear while scatching your right ball with your left hand, jumping rope and singing in perfect pitch the song of her heart of which she hasn't shared the melody or lyrics to. She can get over herself. Sorry, but it just drives me nuts when women make themselves impossible to please. What a waste.


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I think she is just focused on her role as mother, Conan. Hardly unusual.


Yet wholly inappropriate for maintaining a relationship.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Yet wholly inappropriate for maintaining a relationship.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I think kids need to be the mother's priority. I know that is a minority opinion on TAM.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



jld said:


> I think kids need to be the mother's priority. I know that is a minority opinion on TAM.


My IC, and our MC, also agreed with that sentiment. Without a healthy relationship between the parents, there is no family.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



farsidejunky said:


> My IC, and our MC, also agreed with that sentiment. Without a healthy relationship between the parents, there is no family.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


A parent and a child is a family, far.


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## mary35

jld said:


> I think kids need to be the mother's priority. I know that is a minority opinion on TAM.


The best thing a mother can do for her kids is to work with their father to provide a loving stable family unit for them to grow up in. in order to do that, ALL relationships in the family unit have to be nurtured, and strengthened. This means the mother and father have to work together to keep their relationship loving and stable too. If only one part of the family unit gets priority, then the the other parts wilk soon feel neglected and like they aren't as important.. 

There are times when the kids need more time and attention from one or both parents, but there are also times when the husband/ wife relationship needs more time and attention. All relationships in a family unit are important and have to have time and effort put towards them for the relationships to grow and be healthy.

And the bottom line, the kids grow up and leave the nest to make nests of their own, while the man and woman are left in the nest together for many many more years after. Hopefully, when the last one leaves, they lock the door, look at each other with love and admiration - and say together, whew, we did it, and we did a good job. Now - let our golden years together begin.


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## Duguesclin

Blossom Leigh said:


> Absolutely agree. Z, you weren't put on this planet to twist yourself into a friggen pretzel, sticking you right pinky toe into your left ear while scatching your right ball with your left hand, jumping rope and singing in perfect pitch the song of her heart of which she hasn't shared the melody or lyrics to. She can get over herself. *Sorry, but it just drives me nuts when women make themselves impossible to please*. What a waste.


I have not read the whole thread, but I was under the impression that OP is the one not pleased. 

If I were his wife, I would view him as a big pain to have him after her all weekend long.

If she wants him to do the dishes, why doesn't he do them the way she wants them to be done. It is not rocket science after all.


----------



## ConanHub

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



jld said:


> A parent and a child is a family, far.


What is your point and how do you believe it will help?

You come off as incredibly myopic and sometimes even bitter with your comments.

Do you really think the kids would be just fine?

He isn't a bad man. If she really had their best interests, she would be working it out with the good man she made them with.

Her current course is selfish and destructive overall.

What advice do you have to remedy this situation and what results would you expect and how many times have you seen it work?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

Duguesclin said:


> I have not read the whole thread, but I was under the impression that OP is the one not pleased.
> 
> If I were his wife, I would view him as a big pain to have him after her all weekend long.
> 
> If she wants him to do the dishes, why doesn't he do them the way she wants them to be done. It is not rocket science after all.


Try reading it.

She isn't pleased with OP at all and is unwilling to accept his efforts or participate herself.

Has it occurred to you that no matter what he attempts she will find fault?

Have you really never seen people like this?

They are out there in great numbers I assure you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

mary35 said:


> The best thing a mother can do for her kids is to work with their father to provide a loving stable family unit for them to grow up in. in order to do that, ALL relationships in the family unit have to be nurtured, and strengthened. This means the mother and father have to work together to keep their relationship loving and stable too. If only one part of the family unit gets priority, then the the other parts wilk soon feel neglected and like they aren't as important..
> 
> There are times when the kids need more time and attention from one or both parents, but there are also times when the husband/ wife relationship needs more time and attention. All relationships in a family unit are important and have to have time and effort put towards them for the relationships to grow and be healthy.
> 
> And the bottom line, the kids grow up and leave the nest to make nests of their own, while the man and woman are left in the nest together for many many more years after. Hopefully, when the last one leaves, they lock the door, look at each other with love and admiration - and say together, whew, we did it, and we did a good job. Now - let our golden years together begin.


Hi, Mary. I agree that all relationships in the family need to be nurtured. But we have to prioritize. And I think a mother naturally prioritizes her children.

The way it works in our marriage of over two decades and five children is that Dug gives to me and we both give to the kids. I give back to Dug, but it is inspired. It is not coerced in any way. 

He has worked away from home for years and we have never been sexless. But if he were to do stuff like checking my phone or hounding me for sex, I bet we would be fast. What a turn off.


----------



## jld

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ConanHub said:


> What is your point and how do you believe it will help?
> 
> You come off as incredibly myopic and sometimes even bitter with your comments.
> 
> Do you really think the kids would be just fine?
> 
> He isn't a bad man. If she really had their best interests, she would be working it out with the good man she made them with.
> 
> Her current course is selfish and destructive overall.
> 
> What advice do you have to remedy this situation and what results would you expect and how many times have you seen it work?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The father cannot be the priority of the mother in a healthy family, Conan. The children have to be.

He needs to nurture her and inspire her to give back to him. This focus on getting sex is misplaced. I really do not understand it at all. A family man focuses on the *family*.


----------



## ZDog377

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



jld said:


> The father cannot be the priority of the mother in a healthy family, Conan. The children have to be.
> 
> He needs to nurture her and inspire her to give back to him. This focus on getting sex is misplaced. I really do not understand it at all. A family man focuses on the *family*.


Like I've stated the past couple times, its past the wanting sex part. Its more wanting to be intimate with my wife. The sex isn't enjoyable for me if it isn't enjoyable for her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cynthia

jld said:


> I think kids need to be the mother's priority. I know that is a minority opinion on TAM.


Marriage is a foundation for happy kids to thrive from. No one should be a priority over others in a family. Both parents should be working in unity to have a rhythm to how the family works so everyone is working together to get things done and having each other's backs. This is difficult to achieve, but when everyone is at least trying to achieve this, things run much more smoothly and everyone feels valued and has their needs met. At least this is how it has worked for my family and others I've seen doing this have strong family relationships.


----------



## jld

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ZDog377 said:


> Like I've stated the past couple times, its past the wanting sex part. Its more wanting to be intimate with my wife. The sex isn't enjoyable for me if it isn't enjoyable for her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nurture her. Do the things she likes to do. Look through her eyes and empathize.


----------



## jld

CynthiaDe said:


> Marriage is a foundation for happy kids to thrive from. No one should be a priority over others in a family. Both parents should be working in unity to have a rhythm to how the family works so everyone is working together to get things done and having each other's backs. This is difficult to achieve, but when everyone is at least trying to achieve this, things run much more smoothly and everyone feels valued and has their needs met. At least this is how it has worked for my family and others I've seen doing this have strong family relationships.


Cynthia. Let's be real. 

We both know that little kids have to be the priority, and she has three of them.

If someone has to sacrifice, it has to be the dad. The mom is the primary attachment figure for the kids. That is nature's plan. Things go better when we follow nature's plan.


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## Cynthia

jld said:


> A parent and a child is a family, far.


When a couple gets married, they form family without any children.




jld said:


> Cynthia. Let's be real.
> 
> We both know that little kids have to be the priority, and she has three of them.
> 
> If someone has to sacrifice, it has to be the dad. The mom is the primary attachment figure for the kids. That is nature's plan. Things go better when we follow nature's plan.


I had three little kids. My husband traveled 3 weeks out of 4. I have always been a very hands on parent. I strongly disagree with your premise. I am a pragmatic person by nature. 

There are two parents for a reason. It is not "nature's plan" for anyone in the family to be put on the backburner. Husband and wive are supposed to be working in unity to raise families. I do not understand the reasoning of prioritizing the children over either parent. It makes no sense to me at all.

Realistically, if I had treated my husband like he was a low priority, he would not have been pleased. Our children are all almost grown now. He is still an involved and loving father. I have not felt that it was all on me, even though I have been a sahm and homeschooling teacher, while he has been out making the money to support us. It has been a joint effort.


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## Anonymous07

jld said:


> Cynthia. Let's be real.
> 
> We both know that little kids have to be the priority, and she has three of them.
> 
> If someone has to sacrifice, it has to be the dad. The mom is the primary attachment figure for the kids. That is nature's plan. Things go better when we follow nature's plan.


I don't know about that. I don't prioritize my son over my husband and I think it's good for kids to learn that they are not the center of the universe. It's good for them to learn that sometimes they need to wait or that we can put others before ourselves. There is a learning lesson in everything. I want to make sure my marriage is strong and both of us take care of our son. We're a team in making sure everything goes smoothly.

Edited to add that "nature's plan" varies by societies. It's very common for men to be the primary care givers in parts of Africa. It's not just the women who take care of kids.


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## JohnA

NO JLD NO A THOUSAND TIMES. 

The most important relationship of a child is the parents relationship with each other. Once again you put the cart before the horse. 
I am not even talking about date night or long or ate week-ends. What part don't you get that if the parents relationship is dysfunction no matter how hard they try individually it spills over to the children? 

I get the "be Christ like" theme (which is common to many faiths other the christen) but no one here is the second coming. So let us be real. 

And yes Z you have work to do yourself.


----------



## ZDog377

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



jld said:


> Nurture her. Do the things she likes to do. Look through her eyes and empathize.


I had a revelation today and I hope of works. I realized that this whole time I've been expecting everything to fix itself all at once. We came to an agreement that we will each pick one thing a week that we will like the other to work on. She's already picked hers for the week, I have to come up with mine. 

I also talked to her about things she liked to do. We are working hard to find things we can do at home because paying a sitter runs us close to $50 by the time the night is over and that isn't including whatever we decide to do. 

I'm trying to plan for some alone time for later tonight, I've listened to her as to what type of love songs she likes and I'm hoping to find them on Amazon. Maybe a nice massage as well. 

She did mention today that she feels part of the problem is that she is not happy with herself, mainly physically. I told her that part is not important to me, that I love her for the mother and the wife that she is inside. I'm not 100% sure what is going on with this......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happy as a clam

Duguesclin said:


> If she wants him to do the dishes, why doesn't he do them the way she wants them to be done. It is not rocket science after all.


For realz?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort

JohnA said:


> NO JLD NO A THOUSAND TIMES.
> 
> The most important relationship of a child is the parents relationship with each other. Once again you put the cart before the horse.
> I am not even talking about date night or long or ate week-ends. What part don't you get that if the parents relationship is dysfunction no matter how hard they try individually it spills over to the children?
> 
> I get the "be Christ like" theme (which is common to many faiths other the christen) but no one here is the second coming. So let us be real.
> 
> And yes Z you have work to do yourself.


What kind of relationship are the parents going to have when the father is gone 5/7 of the time? 

To me that's the fundamental issue here. 

There are people, like Cynthia, who can handle that. But some can't and it's clear OP's wife is one of them. She has no real connection to him and he and most of the posters here don't seem to want to accept this, instead I see piling on about how his wife won't work on things. 

But it's clear that this isn't doable for her, and OP badly doesn't want to quit his job, so he tries to put band aids on a gaping wound and gets frustrated when it doesn't work. 

Comments along the lines of "well I handled it so she should too" are pointless because we each have different capacities. 

A guy who needs sex several times a week with a wife who travels and comes home on weekends wouldn't be told to suck it up and deal with it, nor should he. Such a situation wouldn't work for a guy like that, and frankly the wife would be labeled selfish here for not being home to tend to his needs. Even if said guy was a sahd and she was supporting the family. Peoples marital needs have to be a priority, and TAM seems to get that where sex is concerned. 

But for some reason many are having a hard time comprehending that some people can't connect when they're only together on weekends. I'm one of those.....i need to see my hb regularly. 

OP isn't an integral part of his family and his wife can't connect with him when he's only there on weekends. Period. 

Maybe she wouldn't connect anyway but nobody knows that. It is a risk for him to get another job so maybe he'll decide it isn't worth it, that's up to him. 

Bashing his wife is pointless because she's being asked make a journey she can't make. 

He has two options: he can find a job that has him home and risk that it won't work, or he can end the marriage. 

This job works for him, it doesn't work for her. And everyone is focused on ways to make it work for her, which is a losing battle imo.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

CynthiaDe said:


> When a couple gets married, they form family without any children.
> 
> I had three little kids. My husband traveled 3 weeks out of 4. I have always been a very hands on parent. I strongly disagree with your premise. I am a pragmatic person by nature.
> 
> There are two parents for a reason. It is not "nature's plan" for anyone in the family to be put on the backburner. Husband and wive are supposed to be working in unity to raise families. I do not understand the reasoning of prioritizing the children over either parent. It makes no sense to me at all.
> 
> Realistically, if I had treated my husband like he was a low priority, he would not have been pleased. Our children are all almost grown now. He is still an involved and loving father. I have not felt that it was all on me, even though I have been a sahm and homeschooling teacher, while he has been out making the money to support us. It has been a joint effort.


Children have to be the priority, Cynthia. That is my premise. 

They are the most vulnerable people in the family. They will not survive if they are not the priority.

Honestly, all of human history has functioned around reproduction and sustenance of the species. I am surprised we are even debating this.

The couple is the foundation. I am not saying the couple is not important. Certainly husbands and wives have to work together. But the needs of the children must come first. Who can they depend on if not us?

This does not mean Z's children have to be in all activities every weekend. But if he can see his wife's very natural priorities--her children--through this lens, I think he may feel less resentful of where her energy is going. 

And he can learn to inspire her towards his needs, too. It sounds like he may be starting to do that.


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## jld

Anonymous07 said:


> I don't know about that. I don't prioritize my son over my husband and I think it's good for kids to learn that they are not the center of the universe. It's good for them to learn that sometimes they need to wait or that we can put others before ourselves. There is a learning lesson in everything. I want to make sure my marriage is strong and both of us take care of our son. We're a team in making sure everything goes smoothly.
> 
> Edited to add that "nature's plan" varies by societies. It's very common for men to be the primary care givers in parts of Africa. It's not just the women who take care of kids.


Women do the majority of child care across the world, and all of the childbearing and breastfeeding. And they always have.

I am sure you prioritize your two year old over your husband. You don't have to help your husband go potty, or get dressed, or get tucked in at night, or stay safe while crossing the street. Your son needs all of that prioritzation, though. He will not survive without that kind of care.

As he gets older and more independent, he will be by nature less of a priority. Eventually he may take care of you.

I feel like we are getting a bit afield of Z's focus here, though, so I will stop here.


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## jld

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ZDog377 said:


> I had a revelation today and I hope of works. I realized that this whole time I've been expecting everything to fix itself all at once. We came to an agreement that we will each pick one thing a week that we will like the other to work on. She's already picked hers for the week, I have to come up with mine.
> 
> I also talked to her about things she liked to do. We are working hard to find things we can do at home because paying a sitter runs us close to $50 by the time the night is over and that isn't including whatever we decide to do.
> 
> I'm trying to plan for some alone time for later tonight, I've listened to her as to what type of love songs she likes and I'm hoping to find them on Amazon. Maybe a nice massage as well.
> 
> She did mention today that she feels part of the problem is that she is not happy with herself, mainly physically. I told her that part is not important to me, that I love her for the mother and the wife that she is inside. I'm not 100% sure what is going on with this......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We never had sitters, Z. They are expensive for a one income family and often the kids do not want to be away from the parents.

Great idea to find her favorite music. And it is hard to go wrong with a massage.

Just keep reassuring her about her body. I still remember Dug telling me how beautiful my stretch marks were after I had my first baby. That meant a lot.


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## Cynthia

jld said:


> Children have to be the priority, Cynthia. That is my premise.


And I disagree with that premise. I feel like this has become a threadjack, so I'm done.


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## Anonymous07

jld said:


> Women do the majority of child care across the world, and all of the childbearing and breastfeeding. And they always have.
> 
> I am sure you prioritize your two year old over your husband. You don't have to help your husband go potty, or get dressed, or get tucked in at night, or stay safe while crossing the street. Your son needs all of that prioritzation, though. He will not survive without that kind of care.
> 
> As he gets older and more independent, he will be by nature less of a priority. Eventually he may take care of you.
> 
> I feel like we are getting a bit afield of Z's focus here, though, so I will stop here.


You act like men are incapable of being the primary child care giver. There are plenty of single dads and stay at home dads who do it all. Nothing wrong with that. My husband is a very involved dad who does a lot with our son. 

My son doesn't get prioritized. Either my husband or I will help him when needed, but there are times he just has to wait. He's not an infant and can understand that there are times when he just won't always be first. He's 2 and a half and perfectly capable of doing a lot himself. He'll survive without being waited on hand and foot. I always highly encourage him to do things himself and he's very proud of himself for being able to do so(can go potty on his own, change himself fully, get different food himself, pull up his own bed sheet/cover, etc). 

I would be annoyed as the husband if my wife always put our child first and left me on the back burner time after time. I don't let our son interrupt us talking or allow him to be the center of everything. We were a couple first, before becoming parents, and I make sure that we get our time together to keep our relationship going well. The women I've watched only prioritize their children, typically end up divorced. You can't neglect your spouse over and over again, only prioritizing the children, and expect them to be content.


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## ZDog377

Anonymous07 said:


> You act like men are incapable of being the primary child care giver. There are plenty of single dads and stay at home dads who do it all. Nothing wrong with that. My husband is a very involved dad who does a lot with our son.
> 
> My son doesn't get prioritized. Either my husband or I will help him when needed, but there are times he just has to wait. He's not an infant and can understand that there are times when he just won't always be first. He's 2 and a half and perfectly capable of doing a lot himself. He'll survive without being waited on hand and foot. I always highly encourage him to do things himself and he's very proud of himself for being able to do so(can go potty on his own, change himself fully, get different food himself, pull up his own bed sheet/cover, etc).
> 
> I would be annoyed as the husband if my wife always put our child first and left me on the back burner time after time. I don't let our son interrupt us talking or allow him to be the center of everything. We were a couple first, before becoming parents, and I make sure that we get our time together to keep our relationship going well. The women I've watched only prioritize their children, typically end up divorced. You can't neglect your spouse over and over again, only prioritizing the children, and expect them to be content.


I understand if the 1 year old and 3 year old come before me all the time. There are things they can't do and need help with. It's with the 9 year old that I have the issue. I get dirty looks when I criticize him. I've told her it's because he knows better but does it for attention. She's frequently said she overcompensates because nobody spends enough time with him. Now, this a kid that can cook a pretty good omlette for himself for breakfast when he feels like it. In fact, he can probably out cook me to some extent in the kitchen. Ask him to do something he doesn't want to do, he's worse than the 1 and 3 year old combined.  

I will admit she's gotten better, but I feel there is a still a long way to go. I've told her I can't figure out what she's trying to overcompensate for.


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## JohnA

To futher clarify about the parents relationship. Both parents need to support each other and as a team rise a child. Team that is the concept. As a team they both have to step up. As teamates they are responsible to enable each other to reach a common goal. As teammates they need to know each others strength and weakness. As team mates you cover up each others weakness. 

So to OP: you want a change, step up. 

What does she need and what does she think she needs? You need to get into her reality and try to work within. My comment was not necessary in support of you. No one here knows the full reality of you marriage. In someways I see and get your point but I wonder if you are not bullying her.


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## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> I understand if the 1 year old and 3 year old come before me all the time. There are things they can't do and need help with. It's with the 9 year old that I have the issue. I get dirty looks when I criticize him. I've told her it's because he knows better but does it for attention. She's frequently said she overcompensates because nobody spends enough time with him. Now, this a kid that can cook a pretty good omlette for himself for breakfast when he feels like it. In fact, he can probably out cook me to some extent in the kitchen. Ask him to do something he doesn't want to do, he's worse than the 1 and 3 year old combined.
> 
> I will admit she's gotten better, but I feel there is a still a long way to go. I've told her I can't figure out what she's trying to overcompensate for.


This is what I don't get. Why would the little ones come before you? With my husband and I, when a child needed something whichever one of us was closest dealt with the child. It wasn't a matter of putting the child before a spouse. It's part of daily life to care for children, for both spouses. We cared for them together when we were together.


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## ZDog377

JohnA said:


> To futher clarify about the parents relationship. Both parents need to support each other and as a team rise a child. Team that is the concept. As a team they both have to step up. As teamates they are responsible to enable each other to reach a common goal. As teammates they need to know each others strength and weakness. As team mates you cover up each others weakness.
> 
> So to OP: you want a change, step up.
> 
> What does she need and what does she think she needs? You need to get into her reality and try to work within. My comment was not necessary in support of you. No one here knows the full reality of you marriage. In someways I see and get your point but I wonder if you are not bullying her.


How am I bullying her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> This is what I don't get. Why would the little ones come before you? With my husband and I, when a child needed something whichever one of us was closest dealt with the child. It wasn't a matter of putting the child before a spouse. It's part of daily life to care for children, for both spouses. We cared for them together when we were together.


There are basic life things that the younger ones can't do, that the older one can. Although I didn't get the 3 year old chocolate milk quick enough the other day and he was only a few steps away from making it for himself. Don't know how much of a mess there would have been though. We usually work together with the younger ones. I'll get his milk and stuff in the morning while she's wiping off the high chair tray. 

The 9 year old tries to play us off against each other. He thinks the world should revolve around him and when her dad is down here, it pretty much does. She has started to do better in regards to when he plays us against each other, but every so often she just doesn't comment when he says something that isn't true. I guess it goes back to how her and I were raised. Her parents were divorced and her dad would bend over backwards to make sure she was happy.


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## Sparta

Hey OP a couple pages back you were looking into some lies that you discovered. You were talking about them and then you jump to something else and no one asked you about it. If you got a gut feeling about something like her being checked out of the marriage her going on walks at night hanging out with her friend who's having getting a divorce. I would check everything out. OK because usually when something like that comes up and you're getting a bad feeling about it usually means somethings not right, quickest way to find out if anything shady is going on. Pick yourself up a VAR (Digital voice recorder) or 2, you could put one in her car, and put one in the house were you know she sits to have a conversation. That's a good way to find out if there's any shenanigans being pulled on you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## eric1

Zdog,

Traveling can play complete havok on a family. My wife travels and when she comes home I find it super difficult to switch of 'super dad' mode into just 'dad' mode.

What helped up was that both of us make it a point to go away together, even if it's just for a night. It's is very grounding.


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## ZDog377

eric1 said:


> Zdog,
> 
> Traveling can play complete havok on a family. My wife travels and when she comes home I find it super difficult to switch of 'super dad' mode into just 'dad' mode.
> 
> What helped up was that both of us make it a point to go away together, even if it's just for a night. It's is very grounding.


That's why we've been going over my dad's house lately. It's not 100% going away for a night but we sleep downstairs when there and they usually help with the kids in the morning so we can sleep in for a little.


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## MJJEAN

I have to agree about the job. I've been there as the wife. Husband gone for days at a time, 3 young kids at home. I felt like a single mother. I began to resent my husband when he was home and parenting because some part of me had begun to see him as an interloper who had no right to punish or criticize my children when he was never around. I started to dread him coming home, even as I longed for him, because his presence interrupted the routine and made more work for me. 

At that time, almost nothing he did would please me. I was unhappy being a "single mother". I had all the restrictions of being married and very few of the benefits.

My DH was happy job. I was NOT. He found something local. I'm glad he did, because I love the man ridiculously, but I don't think our marriage could have survived the detachment and resentment that was growing every time he left and every time he came home.


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## ZDog377

MJJEAN said:


> I have to agree about the job. I've been there as the wife. Husband gone for days at a time, 3 young kids at home. I felt like a single mother. I began to resent my husband when he was home and parenting because some part of me had begun to see him as an interloper who had no right to punish or criticize my children when he was never around. I started to dread him coming home, even as I longed for him, because his presence interrupted the routine and made more work for me.
> 
> At that time, almost nothing he did would please me. I was unhappy being a "single mother". I had all the restrictions of being married and very few of the benefits.
> 
> My DH was happy job. I was NOT. He found something local. I'm glad he did, because I love the man ridiculously, but I don't think our marriage could have survived the detachment and resentment that was growing every time he left and every time he came home.


I've been looking for job, but there are certain parts of a new job that I don't think she will like. I'm happy with the suggestion she made the other day of being done traveling by time our oldest starts grade school. That gives me a little over 3 years. She would also be able to go back to work then too, so a pay cut might not be as bad. 

We had an enjoyable time last night, until we woke up tired from losing the hour of sleep. She did seem to appreciate it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JohnA

Hi Zdog337, 

You asked a question of me several pages ago that I have been slow to answer for a number of reasons. One of which was to clarify my thoughts. You asked why I thought you might be bullying her. First because you are forcing a time table on her in an attempt to get her to meet your sexual needs. This she might be perceive as you changing because you understand her, but instead you are creating check list or a honey do list that when complete you get sex. This in turn may create a sence in her that what you are talking about is a transactional relationship but instead of cash she gets chores done, nice trips, and other trinkets. Do you see how that can cause her to withdraw. 

Being a SAHM or SAHD is a tough road. The absolute financial dependence robs a person of a sense of compence. My mother was a SAHM till her youngest was in 4th grade. During this time (and actually her entire life) as part of running the household she handled all the finances. That included budgeting, check writing, check book balancing, and investigating invest plans. Together they developed budgets, finalized investments based on her research, writing checks, etc, Actually I don't think my father wrote more rthen a dozen checks his entire married life. My brother's marriage, in which his wife a SAHM is the same.

My point is not that a SAHS should do these things. Rather you need to make sure (do not except but she says) it is she needs to feel she is more then an incubator, dish washer, etc who is occasional well reward and from time to time receives emtional validation. 

Finally do you listen careful to your wife in front of the kids? Do you ask how she wants something done in front of the kids AND DO IT EXACTLY? Do you seek clarification at times on how SHE wants things done in front of your children. Do they pick up on the respect you show her? My father in someways was a very quiet in the background type guy in the house. Yet we all knew by the way he listened to my mother and how he acted around her how much he respected her. From that we all understood when it came to us, mom made a lot of the final decisions. Understand you both need to cultivate a sense of respect in your children for each other. By the way from the outside looking in a lot of people thought she cuddled my dad. 

So my points are two fold: has she lost a sense of her adulthood and does she feel respect and listen to within the household? Note I said feel. That is very important that many husbands miss. In this case it is not the realty but the perception she has that matters. Actually you need both. So don't argue/discuss with her how it should be done and how she should feel. 99% of this stuff in the short or long run matters so don't try to improve or change. 

Good luck.


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## ZDog377

JohnA said:


> Hi Zdog337,
> 
> You asked a question of me several pages ago that I have been slow to answer for a number of reasons. One of which was to clarify my thoughts. You asked why I thought you might be bullying her. First because you are forcing a time table on her in an attempt to get her to meet your sexual needs. This she might be perceive as you changing because you understand her, but instead you are creating check list or a honey do list that when complete you get sex. This in turn may create a sence in her that what you are talking about is a transactional relationship but instead of cash she gets chores done, nice trips, and other trinkets. Do you see how that can cause her to withdraw.
> 
> Being a SAHM or SAHD is a tough road. The absolute financial dependence robs a person of a sense of compence. My mother was a SAHM till her youngest was in 4th grade. During this time (and actually her entire life) as part of running the household she handled all the finances. That included budgeting, check writing, check book balancing, and investigating invest plans. Together they developed budgets, finalized investments based on her research, writing checks, etc, Actually I don't think my father wrote more rthen a dozen checks his entire married life. My brother's marriage, in which his wife a SAHM is the same.
> 
> My point is not that a SAHS should do these things. Rather you need to make sure (do not except but she says) it is she needs to feel she is more then an incubator, dish washer, etc who is occasional well reward and from time to time receives emtional validation.
> 
> Finally do you listen careful to your wife in front of the kids? Do you ask how she wants something done in front of the kids AND DO IT EXACTLY? Do you seek clarification at times on how SHE wants things done in front of your children. Do they pick up on the respect you show her? My father in someways was a very quiet in the background type guy in the house. Yet we all knew by the way he listened to my mother and how he acted around her how much he respected her. From that we all understood when it came to us, mom made a lot of the final decisions. Understand you both need to cultivate a sense of respect in your children for each other. By the way from the outside looking in a lot of people thought she cuddled my dad.
> 
> So my points are two fold: has she lost a sense of her adulthood and does she feel respect and listen to within the household? Note I said feel. That is very important that many husbands miss. In this case it is not the realty but the perception she has that matters. Actually you need both. So don't argue/discuss with her how it should be done and how she should feel. 99% of this stuff in the short or long run matters so don't try to improve or change.
> 
> Good luck.


John, 

Her and I have had talks and I've said it's not even the actual orgasm of sex any more for me. I told her that it's more getting a little bit of her time where it can just be us. I will say that it has gotten better since I started this thread. There are times that we have taken a few steps backwards, but lately it has been slowly improving. As far as a checklist in return for sexual favors, that's how I've felt it has always been with her. If I don't get x, y, and z done in the amount of time she thinks it should take, chances greatly decrease for that day. There have been times she has complained because I loaded the dishwasher wrong or washed a piece of cookware the wrong way. 

I handle the finances at home, this is something her and I have both discussed. She has admitted that she is not great at finances and her student loans show it as well. That's a topic for another day. We share a joint account that we both have access to, but it is usually for our tax return and not much else. 

I will admit that I need to show her more respect. I'm trying to put a better effort towards it by sending her text messages telling her how much I appreciate her and trying to tell her as much as I can when I get home. Every now and then she will have a smart remark about how I couldn't do what she does. I usually respond that I would do what I had to do but lately I've been letting it go in one ear and out the other. I do feel the respect has to come both ways though. I know everybody looks at a guy that travels and says "man, that has to be the life". I'm not expecting her to roll out a red carpet when I get home, but a "I know what you do is hard at times" would go a long way. I also feel this attitude is already trickling down to the oldest. He's made some comments already about "daddy doesn't do anything when he goes to work". 

Once again, I know the job change seems to be the main point. In my defense, I've had traveling jobs ever since we started dating. I know the situation has changed, but this job has me on the road far less than the old one. As an example, they're sending me over seas in May. My boss wanted to give me off the week before but I asked for the week after instead because I knew she wanted me to go on the school field trip for our oldest. My old job would either not have given me anything off or told me to take that week and deal with it.


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## Blossom Leigh

So, she's using your performance to gauge her sexual responsiveness. Transactional. 

That is not cool. 

Neither my H nor I do the transactional crap that a lot of couples do. When we want each other we just come together. When we want to partner together on the house we just do it. I don't criticize him, he doesn't criticize me.

I would not create a transactional relationship and by golly I would NOT leave myself on someone else's transactional hook.


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## ZDog377

I will add that it's always been transactional except when we were trying to have kids. Then it didn't matter, she took it any time she could get it.


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## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> I will add that it's always been transactional except when we were trying to have kids. Then it didn't matter, she took it any time she could get it.


ugh... sorry


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## ZDog377

So I made the decision last night after talking to a friend to change myself. I started going to the gym today and I'm going to start getting my behind in shape. It will help me blow off stress and hopefully translate to better time at home. We will see how it goes.......


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## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> So I made the decision last night after talking to a friend to change myself. I started going to the gym today and I'm going to start getting my behind in shape. It will help me blow off stress and hopefully translate to better time at home. We will see how it goes.......


Getting in shape is definitely worth the effort, whether it makes any difference at home or not. I am in better shape than I was in my 20's. I'm now in my early 50's. I was thin in my 20's, but now I'm thin and in shape. I feel better than I have in my entire life. I have plenty of energy and feel great.


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## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> Getting in shape is definitely worth the effort, whether it makes any difference at home or not. I am in better shape than I was in my 20's. I'm now in my early 50's. I was thin in my 20's, but now I'm thin and in shape. I feel better than I have in my entire life. I have plenty of energy and feel great.


I'll agree, mentally I feel better than I have in a while. I feel less stress too. Its funny because she asked me what was wrong because I wasn't touchy as I used to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NotEasy

ZDog377 said:


> I'll agree, mentally I feel better than I have in a while. I feel less stress too. Its funny because she asked me what was wrong because I wasn't touchy as I used to be.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Finally, some good news. Finally a good interaction between you two. This sounds like the first conversation that was not an argument or battle. 

Granted her tone voice doesn't come through text, but it sounds like she cares for you. When was the last time that happened?

So you have found something helpful, keep at it. My guess is you have lots of access to hotel gyms while travelling and free time to use them, so keep at it.

And hopefully you responded to her in a similar fashion, with care not anger. Don't push for sex straight away, this is not a transaction. I think your problem is that you two have forgotten how to interact as husband and wife.


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## Bobby5000

I feel bad for both of them, and I am not sure they are going to get resolved with more time with her. One wonders if he changes job and makes less money, whether we will not pile financial problems on to an already fragile marriage. 

For him, he is not getting much love, and far from being happy at seeing her, she seems to complain. 

For her, in this fragile marriages, we now have this seeming preoccupation with sex, when she is not particularly happy. 

Identifying these problems seems easier than solving them. I think he has to see if he can get the relationship back on track, try to help non-sexual touching, and work on the relationship.


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## ZDog377

NotEasy said:


> Finally, some good news. Finally a good interaction between you two. This sounds like the first conversation that was not an argument or battle.
> 
> Granted her tone voice doesn't come through text, but it sounds like she cares for you. When was the last time that happened?
> 
> So you have found something helpful, keep at it. My guess is you have lots of access to hotel gyms while travelling and free time to use them, so keep at it.
> 
> And hopefully you responded to her in a similar fashion, with care not anger. Don't push for sex straight away, this is not a transaction. I think your problem is that you two have forgotten how to interact as husband and wife.


Her tone is one thing that I've always told her she needs to work on. I've even had comments from other people about how things sound vs. what they mean. It's hard to tell when she's pissed about something vs. just stating something. 

I believe she cares now, but just because she can't figure out what is going on. She's been saying lately that there comes a point where you have to be the person to make yourself happy and everybody else around you can only help so far. I get to spend time with a good friend and get healthy by doing this. A win-win for me. 

I'm definitely not pushing for sex as much any more. It always seemed like a chore to her and I want to feel desired for once I guess you could say.


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## ZDog377

Bobby5000 said:


> I feel bad for both of them, and I am not sure they are going to get resolved with more time with her. One wonders if he changes job and makes less money, whether we will not pile financial problems on to an already fragile marriage.
> 
> For him, he is not getting much love, and far from being happy at seeing her, she seems to complain.
> 
> For her, in this fragile marriages, we now have this seeming preoccupation with sex, when she is not particularly happy.
> 
> Identifying these problems seems easier than solving them. I think he has to see if he can get the relationship back on track, try to help non-sexual touching, and work on the relationship.


I hope/believe she is starting to see that us spending more time together is making things slowly better. I was always happy at seeing her, but it was hard not getting to spend that time with her. I've also told her that I'm OK with just laying there some nights. It doesn't have to be 100% intimacy all the time, I just want to know that I have her attention.


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## NotEasy

ZDog377 said:


> Her tone is one thing that I've always told her she needs to work on. I've even had comments from other people about how things sound vs. what they mean. It's hard to tell when she's pissed about something vs. just stating something.


Glad to hear that I heard her tone correctly. It is so difficult to hear her tone through a 2nd hand text. I worried that I imagined it.

She comes accross as sharp tongued. But the way to counter that is with happiness, not with logic or your own sharp tongue. You can't demand care, love or respect.


ZDog377 said:


> I believe she cares now, but just because she can't figure out what is going on. She's been saying lately that there comes a point where you have to be the person to make yourself happy and everybody else around you can only help so far. I get to spend time with a good friend and get healthy by doing this. A win-win for me.


Yes I think she cares partly because of curiosity, but that is far better than indifference or disinterest.

Yes you have to be the person to make yourself happy, very wise.
And was she saying that to you, or about herself?



ZDog377 said:


> I'm definitely not pushing for sex as much any more. It always seemed like a chore to her and I want to feel desired for once I guess you could say.


Good to hear, this is the sort of attitude that should win through. 

Even better is this from your next post.


ZDog377 said:


> ...I've also told her that I'm OK with just laying there some nights. It doesn't have to be 100% intimacy all the time, I just want to know that I have her attention.


Of course your actions must match your words, and it is your actions that are the real proof of your attitude.
But suddenly this thread sounds much more positive. Not out of the woods yet, but going in a good direction.


----------



## ZDog377

She has been the one saying that she needs to make herself happy. I just repeated the phrase back to her when she was asking what was yesterday. 

She is also definitely sharp tongued. There are some times that she will say I don't have it as bad as some of my male friends do. I haven't thrown it back at her lately but I say the reverse is true as well. I feel there isn't a place for comments like that and every couple is different. I explained to her that if my friends are happy with their situation then that's all that matters to me.


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> She has been the one saying that she needs to make herself happy. I just repeated the phrase back to her when she was asking what was yesterday.
> 
> She is also definitely sharp tongued. There are some times that she will say I don't have it as bad as some of my male friends do. I haven't thrown it back at her lately but I say the reverse is true as well. I feel there isn't a place for comments like that and every couple is different. I explained to her that if my friends are happy with their situation then that's all that matters to me.


Are you familiar with Active Listening?


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> Are you familiar with Active Listening?


I'll be honest, I remember hearing about it but I should probably practice it more. Could you explain what it is?


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I'll be honest, I remember hearing about it but I should probably practice it more. Could you explain what it is?


Repeating her words back to her,

Paraphrasing her words back to her, 

or

Asking her an open ended question.

"Honey, you feel like I have it better than my friends. You feel I complain a lot instead of being grateful for what I have. What do you think I take for granted?"


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> Repeating her words back to her,
> 
> Paraphrasing her words back to her,
> 
> or
> 
> Asking her an open ended question.
> 
> "Honey, you feel like I have it better than my friends. You feel I complain a lot instead of being grateful for what I have. What do you think I take for granted?"


Thanks for the idea. Definitely something I can try. What do you do though when she can't give an answer?


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> Thanks for the idea. Definitely something I can try. What do you do though when she can't give an answer?


Be patient.

"Honey, I appreciate your thinking about this question. I have to do such and such right now, but I will be around later and I hope we can talk about it then. Love you (_kiss her on the forehead or squeeze her hand, get up and give her some space to think about the question_)."


----------



## ZDog377

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the help again. She's going away Saturday and coming home Sunday this weekend. Normally I would have been mad at this, but my oldest with some of his friends are participating at a 3 on 3 tournament this weekend in a nearby town. Should be fun as long as they all don't act like they're in the NBA......


----------



## Sports Fan

Perhaps she is touched out. Not by you. 

She is definately displaying red flag signals. I am a firm believer that when sex dies down between two healthy people then the possibillity of the Refuser being engaged in some sort of affair should always discreetly be examined.

Its time you started digging.

The good people in the Coping with Infedelity section can assist you with some very valuable advice


----------



## jld

Sports Fan said:


> Perhaps she is touched out. Not by you.
> 
> She is definately displaying red flag signals. I am a firm believer that when sex dies down between two healthy people then the possibillity of the Refuser being engaged in some sort of affair should always discreetly be examined.
> 
> Its time you started digging.
> 
> The good people in the Coping with Infedelity section can assist you with some very valuable advice


She has a 1 and 3 year old, plus a 9 yo from a previous relationship that she is trying to do her best for. I don't think her being "touched out" seems unusual.


----------



## ZDog377

Believe me, I have thought about that possibility. It comes into my head every now and then, especially when she goes to her friends house and then won't let me touch her when we are laying in bed after she gets home. I've never come out and fully said anything to her though. 

It was interesting the other day though. I've been not as touchy the past couple days because I've been focusing on other things and it seemed like she considered it a turn-off. Now she's complaining about it, wondering why I'm not as touchy as I used to be.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> Believe me, I have thought about that possibility. It comes into my head every now and then, especially when she goes to her friends house and then won't let me touch her when we are laying in bed after she gets home. I've never come out and fully said anything to her though.
> 
> It was interesting the other day though. I've been not as touchy the past couple days because I've been focusing on other things and it seemed like she considered it a turn-off. Now she's complaining about it, wondering why I'm not as touchy as I used to be.


See... this is the kind of stuff that drives me nuts. 

She complains about you touching her.

AND She complains about you NOT touching her.

She totally sets up LOSE LOSE.

these are the kind of situations that cause men to give up.

She leaves no wiggle room for him to NOT be at fault. WTF...

It's the RELEASE that teaches Ladies.... Come on now...

You CANNOT leave pressure ON all the time.... 

Why the hell do women do that crap... the men walk away and then they b!tch and moan about him walking... 

Well.... what do you expect! 

Sorry Z... little venting there, but that just ticks me off. And I would have told her just that... "make up your [email protected]#$ mind"

"when you figure out how to be in a relationship, let me know... until then... " 

You know the rest.

ugh..


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> See... this is the kind of stuff that drives me nuts.
> 
> She complains about you touching her.
> 
> AND She complains about you NOT touching her.
> 
> She totally sets up LOSE LOSE.
> 
> these are the kind of situations that cause men to give up.
> 
> She leaves no wiggle room for him to NOT be at fault. WTF...
> 
> It's the RELEASE that teaches Ladies.... Come on now...
> 
> You CANNOT leave pressure ON all the time....
> 
> Why the hell do women do that crap... the men walk away and then they b!tch and moan about him walking...
> 
> Well.... what do you expect!
> 
> Sorry Z... little venting there, but that just ticks me off. And I would have told her just that... "make up your [email protected]#$ mind"
> 
> "when you figure out how to be in a relationship, let me know... until then... "
> 
> You know the rest.
> 
> ugh..


I've stopped letting it show that it affects me on the outside. On the inside, different story. I was up until 3 AM last night because I was so frustrated. I just passed it off to her that I wasn't tired. 

She promised that something would happen tonight, that we were going to bed early. I'm not holding out hope anyways.


----------



## Marc878

One excuse after another. You can't and never will be able to do enough for her.

You can't fix that she has to.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> I've stopped letting it show that it affects me on the outside. On the inside, different story. I was up until 3 AM last night because I was so frustrated. I just passed it off to her that I wasn't tired.
> 
> She promised that something would happen tonight, that we were going to bed early. I'm not holding out hope anyways.


I don't blame you.


----------



## Cynthia

There is a difference between giving touch and taking touch. Mostly kids are taking and needing. A wife does not want a taking, needy husband. She wants a giving touch. I don't know if that's what's going on here, but it could be.
I still am wondering if there is someone else in the picture. Are you making headway on finding out?


----------



## Marc878

acitive listening, helping out more, being nicer, blah, blah, blah. What'd that get for you???

You holding it in so you don't make her mad???? Nice for her I guess. And when you are home from bringing in the bacon she takes off????

She's a lazy azzed entitled princess that doesn't have to work who does what she wants when she wants and that includes maybe throwing a few breadcrumbs your way. Plus I bet you're footing the bill for her kid from a prior marriage 100% too, correct me if I'm wrong?

You either need to set her down and talk about your needs for a change or get a collar for yourself that's not to tight so when she jerks your leash it doesn't hurt so bad.


----------



## Marc878

Nothing you do is appreciated or respected here. It's your life too. Cut the finances and start putting some back and doing for yourself. Start detaching, she'll either come around or she won't.

If you're smart better start looking at your phone bill.

Got news for you. There are better out there.


----------



## ZDog377

We kind of split the expenses for her son from a previous relationship. I think she gets $600/month. Right now, I pay the cell phone, internet, TV, all utilities. All she pays is gas for her car sometimes and Aflac. She will paying for her trip to go away next weekend, the only thing I contributed was hotel points for a room for one night. 

I've been looking at the phone bill and haven't seen anything in calls or texts. It's usually to the same set of people. I haven't had a good amount of time to look through her phone, I do need to transfer some pictures off it tonight so that should give me some time.


----------



## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> We kind of split the expenses for her son from a previous relationship. I think she gets $600/month. Right now, I pay the cell phone, internet, TV, all utilities. All she pays is gas for her car sometimes and Aflac. She will paying for her trip to go away next weekend, the only thing I contributed was hotel points for a room for one night.


Child support is supposed to support her child, not pay for her trips. She's not a paid nanny. She's a mother. You don't even know how much she gets? Your relationship is unbalanced. You work to support the family and she thinks anything she brings in, including support is for her own enjoyment and none of your business. I'll bet she would feel differently if you withheld your money from her.


----------



## Cynthia

The more I think about how your wife views money, the more I realize that she is not a team player. She is appears to be using you. You two are not a team. She runs the show and you finance her. Do you think this is what is going on?
This may be way off base, but do you think your wife might be having an affair with her girlfriend?


----------



## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> Child support is supposed to support her child, not pay for her trips. She's not a paid nanny. She's a mother. You don't even know how much she gets? Your relationship is unbalanced. You work to support the family and she thinks anything she brings in, including support is for her own enjoyment and none of your business. I'll bet she would feel differently if you withheld your money from her.


She pays for groceries every now and then, mainly when it's smaller trips. The bigger one that's on the weekend is the one I pay for. I try not to concern myself with how much she gets for support. I know the last time we had to submit for medical assistance it was about that much. 

I've thought about something happening with the friend. She's not over there consistently though. I feel she runs things as far as the kids goes but it's rare that she questions me on finances.


----------



## Sports Fan

ZDog377 said:


> Believe me, I have thought about that possibility. It comes into my head every now and then, especially when she goes to her friends house and then won't let me touch her when we are laying in bed after she gets home. I've never come out and fully said anything to her though.
> 
> It was interesting the other day though. I've been not as touchy the past couple days because I've been focusing on other things and it seemed like she considered it a turn-off. Now she's complaining about it, wondering why I'm not as touchy as I used to be.


I would go buy yourself a good VAR and strap it under her car seat with velcro. Make sure you have Lithium long life batteries in it.

All this going out to friends place could be a cover up. Top that up with the dramatic decrease in sexual activity and you have Red Flag Affair signals.

You are obviously suspicious so go with you gut and confirm one way or another. As stated earlier the people at Coping With Infedelity section can assist you with ways to discreetly uncover the truth.


----------



## Sports Fan

jld said:


> She has a 1 and 3 year old, plus a 9 yo from a previous relationship that she is trying to do her best for. I don't think her being "touched out" seems unusual.


Its more common than you think. Better he verify than sticking his head in the sand for his arse to be continually kicked.


----------



## ZDog377

Sports Fan said:


> I would go buy yourself a good VAR and strap it under her car seat with velcro. Make sure you have Lithium long life batteries in it.
> 
> All this going out to friends place could be a cover up. Top that up with the dramatic decrease in sexual activity and you have Red Flag Affair signals.
> 
> You are obviously suspicious so go with you gut and confirm one way or another. As stated earlier the people at Coping With Infedelity section can assist you with ways to discreetly uncover the truth.


Not that this is an excuse, but she just randomly cleans the car during the week and with the kids she is always checking under the seat for stuff. I'd have no way to explain it away.


----------



## john117

A pen VAR  or hide under trim, fusebox...


----------



## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> Not that this is an excuse, but she just randomly cleans the car during the week and with the kids she is always checking under the seat for stuff. I'd have no way to explain it away.


You are right. She would find it under the seat.


----------



## ZDog377

I'll look into a pen one and a hiding spot this upcoming week. This week has been nuts and will still be with all the stuff going on today and this weekend. I've made time for her this week and I've been blown off about 50% of the time. I have a feeling there is going to be a blow up on Sunday night since I'm leaving for work on Monday. 

Its always the same argument with her but she never wants to sit down and come up with a plan for changing things......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

Why should she? Your discomfort is not affecting her comfort.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> I'll look into a pen one and a hiding spot this upcoming week. This week has been nuts and will still be with all the stuff going on today and this weekend. I've made time for her this week and I've been blown off about 50% of the time. I have a feeling there is going to be a blow up on Sunday night since I'm leaving for work on Monday.
> 
> Its always the same argument with her but she never wants to sit down and come up with a plan for changing things......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What will her argument be?


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> What will her argument be?


The argument for never coming up with a plan?


----------



## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> Its always the same argument with her but she never wants to sit down and come up with a plan for changing things......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What is the argument that she always uses?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> The argument for never coming up with a plan?


never coming up with a plan for??


----------



## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> What is the argument that she always uses?


No, I meant that we argue about the same things. Her argument is that life happens and sometimes things don't go according to plan. I told her that things always seem to be on her terms. 

For an example, I'll use last night. We agreed that we were going to go to bed by 10:30 PM. We were at a friends house until around 9. About 10:15 she comes up to me and asks what I want to do. She says that she forgot to make some treats for the oldest for school and did I want her to make them in the morning or now. We had some fun in the shower, but didn't do much more because we didn't go to bed until 12. 

She swears up and down we settled on an every other day schedule when I'm home for intimacy. I'm happy with once if I'm gone for the week. She added in there that I need to realize life happens sometimes.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

ZDog377 said:


> I've stopped letting it show that it affects me on the outside. On the inside, different story. I was up until 3 AM last night because I was so frustrated. I just passed it off to her that I wasn't tired.
> 
> She promised that something would happen tonight, that we were going to bed early. I'm not holding out hope anyways.


You can't improve a marriage with dishonesty.



ZDog377 said:


> For an example, I'll use last night. We agreed that we were going to go to bed by 10:30 PM. We were at a friends house until around 9. About 10:15 she comes up to me and asks what I want to do. She says that she forgot to make some treats for the oldest for school and did I want her to make them in the morning or now. We had some fun in the shower, but didn't do much more because we didn't go to bed until 12.


Can she make a to-do list for these things and leave it lying around, so it's obvious to both of you just how much she tackles during a typical week? Then she could see about maybe saying 'no' to some of the obligations sometimes, so she doesn't overbook herself, especially on the days you are home. You could also see about what things on that list you can help with. No reason you couldn't make the treats while she was doing something else.



ZDog377 said:


> She swears up and down we settled on an every other day schedule when I'm home for intimacy. I'm happy with once if I'm gone for the week. She added in there that I need to realize life happens sometimes.


I think scheduling sex is a terrible mistake. That just adds it to the to-do list like it was a chore. Sure, schedule together time, as much as you can, but don't put any pressure that sex has to occur every time. That just makes it less likely, in my experience.


----------



## ZDog377

Hopeful Cynic said:


> You can't improve a marriage with dishonesty.
> 
> I told her today that stuff has changed since she started going over to see this new friend. I said it's weird that I'm not allowed to touch her when she comes home from there.
> 
> 
> 
> Can she make a to-do list for these things and leave it lying around, so it's obvious to both of you just how much she tackles during a typical week? Then she could see about maybe saying 'no' to some of the obligations sometimes, so she doesn't overbook herself, especially on the days you are home. You could also see about what things on that list you can help with. No reason you couldn't make the treats while she was doing something else.
> 
> I've told her I understand these treats and volunteering for the school is something she enjoys. That's why I don't complain about it so much. At the same time I tell her she needs to set a limit on how much she's doing. There will be weeks when we talk Sunday night before bed and she has something to do at the school every day except Friday. She wants to go from Vice President to President next year. I know I can't say much when out of town either, but I've told her the 10 year old needs to be more responsible. He will cover up on the couch and then when he goes to bed later, just leaves the blanket laying on the couch. He just throws clothes wherever when he gets a shower. We also get into the argument about cleaning the house. I told her I don't expect it to be spotless when I come home. I'll sweep the kitchen when I come home and get a dustpan full of stuff. Same with the living/dining room. Stepping over four or five things right in front of the door and just stuff everywhere is what makes me mad.
> 
> 
> 
> I think scheduling sex is a terrible mistake. That just adds it to the to-do list like it was a chore. Sure, schedule together time, as much as you can, but don't put any pressure that sex has to occur every time. That just makes it less likely, in my experience.


I guess I was trying to get out of her what was acceptable to her. I would be OK if she said twice. I understand sometimes it might be more, might be less. It's a starting point is what I told her, let's try and see what works.


----------



## Tasorundo

Zdog, just a quick question about her not letting you touch her after she is with her friend:

Does that happen often? I skimmed back through the thread and only see it mentioned once. Is that a regular occurrence?


----------



## ZDog377

Tasorundo said:


> Zdog, just a quick question about her not letting you touch her after she is with her friend:
> 
> Does that happen often? I skimmed back through the thread and only see it mentioned once. Is that a regular occurrence?


The time that they went to see a movie, I can't remember. The two times they went "walking" was when I was out of town. This past week when she went, she wouldn't let me when she got home. I'm trying to remember if there were any other times.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> The time that they went to see a movie, I can't remember. The two times they went "walking" was when I was out of town. This past week when she went, she wouldn't let me when she got home. I'm trying to remember if there were any other times.


Does she offer an explanation?


----------



## jld

If she perceived you as giving to her, instead of taking from her, I don't think physical touch would be any kind of issue. I think she would be seeking you out for physical touch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> Does she offer an explanation?


She says she had not showered and was going to in the morning. I swear there was a time last week the same happened, but I'm not 100% sure.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Is she a SAHM that doesn't shower frequently?


----------



## Cynthia

jld said:


> If she perceived you as giving to her, instead of taking from her, I don't think physical touch would be any kind of issue. I think she would be seeking you out for physical touch.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unless she is having an affair.


----------



## anonmd

Blossom Leigh said:


> Is she a SAHM that doesn't shower frequently?


What does SAHM have to do with not showering? :wink2:

In my experience this is a convenient female excuse for not having sex, it is intentional. In my house, if she decides on the magic weekend morning that she is receptive she will magically appear in the bathroom to shower just after I finish my daily cleanup. If not, she won't. She'll put her hair up on Saturday and not, then Sunday it'll happen in the afternoon once I've left for a couple hours. Or the teenager will get woken up 2 hours early to interrupt the possibility. Intentional


----------



## Blossom Leigh

anonmd said:


> What does SAHM have to do with not showering? :wink2:
> 
> In my experience this is a convenient female excuse for not having sex, it is intentional. In my house, if she decides on the magic weekend morning that she is receptive she will magically appear in the bathroom to shower just after I finish my daily cleanup. If not, she won't. She'll put her hair up on Saturday and not, then Sunday it'll happen in the afternoon once I've left for a couple hours. Or the teenager will get woken up 2 hours early to interrupt the possibility. Intentional


lol... just trying to figure her out... she makes no sense to me

but then again I'm not a female who intentionally avoids intimacy with my H... does not compute.:nerd:


----------



## anonmd

He is a lucky man . 

It takes an amazingly long time to figure out all the ways you are being manipulated LOL!


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> Is she a SAHM that doesn't shower frequently?


She complains about it every now and then, but I cannot understand how you do not have enough time to take a quick shower especially when she is getting up at 6:30 AM.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

anonmd said:


> He is a lucky man .
> 
> It takes an amazingly long time to figure out all the ways you are being manipulated LOL!


Yea... I feel for anyone in that situation

I got my belly full of manipulation growing up and watching others do it sickens me...


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> She complains about it every now and then, but I cannot understand how you do not have enough time to take a quick shower especially when she is getting up at 6:30 AM.


Geeze... the luxury of getting up at 6:30... She can tell that sob story to someone else. My typical wake up time is between 3am and 5am. 

doesn't have time for a shower... give me a friggen break. 

She is just not impressing me... can you tell.

Sorry ... no disrespect. If you ever get tired of me venting about her I will definitely move along. My patience is wearing out for her for sure. So, I may not be the best advice giver in this situation. I would have kicked her a$$ long time ago.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Blossom Leigh said:


> lol... just trying to figure her out... she makes no sense to me
> 
> but then again I'm not a female who intentionally avoids intimacy with my H... does not compute.:nerd:


There is only one reason to avoid it. She is not interested. Whether or not there is someone else, she sure is not interested with OP.


----------



## ZDog377

NobodySpecial said:


> There is only one reason to avoid it. She is not interested. Whether or not there is someone else, she sure is not interested with OP.


Like I said, she is OK with it when it is on her terms. I know she is not happy with how she is physically, but I don't know how many ways I can tell her that. She came into the shower and gave me a HJ last night. I told her I appreciated it because she did it without asking, but it's stay away from down below on her.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Is there a female problem she is dealing with?


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> Is there a female problem she is dealing with?


As in a problem down there or something else? I'm not up and up on female problems.....:wink2:


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> As in a problem down there or something else? I'm not up and up on female problems.....:wink2:


yea... down there:nerd:


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> yea... down there:nerd:


Not that I know of, she was just on an antibiotic and some other stuff for down there.


----------



## bankshot1993

Zdog, I'm only going to say what so many people are thinking right now about "red flags" coming up. Not saying that this is happening only why these raise flags.

red flag #1 - She won't let you touch her after she has been with her friend. Is there a fear there on her part that you are going to find signs of infidelity. Somebody that has been sexually active in the very recent past will not let their partner go near them because they will be able to feel that there has been "activity" down there.

Red flag #2 - She gave you a hand job but nothing going on "down there". WS will often try to avoid intercourse as a way of staying faithful to an affair partner that they are currently feeling new relationship excitement with that's often mistaken for love.

I'm not saying that this is what is happening here, only that these are flags so many here have seen in the past and what they usually mean.


----------



## bankshot1993

ZDog377 said:


> Not that I know of, she was just on an antibiotic and some other stuff for down there.


What was the antibiotic for?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> Not that I know of, she was just on an antibiotic and some other stuff for down there.


Was she open with you about what it was?

You don't have to say it here.


----------



## ZDog377

So just to summarize things, I believe tonight is the night that I'm going to say something I regret. I just came downstairs from a work conference call and she was trying to be all touchy/feely. Rub, hug, kiss, all that stuff. I asked if she was doing it now because she wasn't planning on doing it later. She got all mad and stated that was the reason why she doesn't do it often. She says I ask for it too much. I said that maybe if it happened more often, I wouldn't complain as much and maybe I want to know what time we are going to bed so I can spend time with you.......


----------



## Tasorundo

Zdog,

From everything in this thread, I don't think she is cheating on you. This place can be a little like WebMD in that everything points to cancer.

If I responded to my wife like you just described, she would be upset, and rightfully so. She just tried to do something, be spontaneous, and rather than accepting and rolling with it, you told her that you felt she was trying to trick you out of something else.

So what if she decided to have passionate engaged intercourse with you right now and not later? Do you not want her to come to you when she wants to come to you? You are setting up a situation she cannot win, and she senses that. That is why she said it is never good enough for you.

I think you need to apologize to her. You need to be open with her, talk to her and not about what you want her to do in the bedroom. Tell her your thoughts, your fears, your anxiety about this whole thing.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> So just to summarize things, I believe tonight is the night that I'm going to say something I regret. I just came downstairs from a work conference call and she was trying to be all touchy/feely. Rub, hug, kiss, all that stuff. I asked if she was doing it now because she wasn't planning on doing it later. She got all mad and stated that was the reason why she doesn't do it often. She says I ask for it too much. I said that maybe if it happened more often, I wouldn't complain as much and maybe I want to know what time we are going to bed so I can spend time with you.......


She just dodged and blameshifted. Interesting.


----------



## ZDog377

Tasorundo said:


> Zdog,
> 
> From everything in this thread, I don't think she is cheating on you. This place can be a little like WebMD in that everything points to cancer.
> 
> If I responded to my wife like you just described, she would be upset, and rightfully so. She just tried to do something, be spontaneous, and rather than accepting and rolling with it, you told her that you felt she was trying to trick you out of something else.
> 
> So what if she decided to have passionate engaged intercourse with you right now and not later? Do you not want her to come to you when she wants to come to you? You are setting up a situation she cannot win, and she senses that. That is why she said it is never good enough for you.
> 
> I think you need to apologize to her. You need to be open with her, talk to her and not about what you want her to do in the bedroom. Tell her your thoughts, your fears, your anxiety about this whole thing.


I've talked to her about it numerous times. I've asked her why it doesn't upset her. I've ended up crying, she hasn't even once. Her being spontaneous is a tease, she doesn't like it when I'm trying to put my hands all over her in the kitchen. If I come in for a drink though, she's OK to do it to me but I can't do it back?

If somebody told you what you did was never good enough, wouldn't you at least try to get to that point once, see if they would notice or not? I've tried doing that, we get into even a stupid argument and I get her a card. I go out of my way on the way home Friday nights after being gone all week if she wants something special. She has to be at school for a couple hours for some kind of delivery, I change my schedule so there is someone to watch the kids. I've tried to do my best with this situation and I'm slowly getting to the point where I don't know how much more I can give.


----------



## Tasorundo

You guys need to go to a counselor, together. You are both talking at each other and neither is hearing anything. She doesn't hear what you are saying, because to her all she hears is that she is not good enough, not sexual enough, etc.

I am not saying that she is doing everything right, so don't feel like I am attacking you at all. I really am not.

I have been married for 21 years and a lot of that was filled with horrible sexual tension between my wife and I. A lot of it was us not really hearing what the other was saying. My wife felt like such a failure in the sex department that even the thought of having sex would almost paralyze her with fear.

I don't know that you are in the same boat, but I don't see a situation where she is sneaking off to bang someone else. If anything, she talks to the friend about how she has alone time and no pressure from her husband to perform for him.

I want to make sure that you understand I am not saying you are putting that pressure on her, but that is how she might be taking it.

You know how you feel when she rebuffs your advances, and yet you just did the same to her. For all you know, she was spending the last 10 minutes of your call psyching herself up to be able to try it at all. Then it was squashed instantly by your comments.


----------



## ZDog377

Tasorundo said:


> You guys need to go to a counselor, together. You are both talking at each other and neither is hearing anything. She doesn't hear what you are saying, because to her all she hears is that she is not good enough, not sexual enough, etc.
> 
> I am not saying that she is doing everything right, so don't feel like I am attacking you at all. I really am not.
> 
> I have been married for 21 years and a lot of that was filled with horrible sexual tension between my wife and I. A lot of it was us not really hearing what the other was saying. My wife felt like such a failure in the sex department that even the thought of having sex would almost paralyze her with fear.
> 
> I don't know that you are in the same boat, but I don't see a situation where she is sneaking off to bang someone else. If anything, she talks to the friend about how she has alone time and no pressure from her husband to perform for him.
> 
> I want to make sure that you understand I am not saying you are putting that pressure on her, but that is how she might be taking it.
> 
> You know how you feel when she rebuffs your advances, and yet you just did the same to her. For all you know, she was spending the last 10 minutes of your call psyching herself up to be able to try it at all. Then it was squashed instantly by your comments.


No, this is what she does all the time. I don't mind a hug and a kiss, but I'm tired of the trying to grab my crotch and stuff like that. She'll do it and when I say "not until later" or "maybe" and then later comes and she fell asleep on the couch. However last week she was able to stay up until almost midnight going for a walk with her friend.


----------



## Tasorundo

I think you guys need help communicating.

Maybe she thinks you will like it, because you have done it to her?

Really, we have no idea what is going on in your house, but if you two don't learn to communicate, it will end badly.


----------



## turnera

Why can't you just go with it when she does it and carry her into the bedroom for a quickie?


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## bankshot1993

If my wife got all touchy feely and started groping me out of the blue, I would be absolutely thrilled that she initiated something and I'd be all over it (so to speak).


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> No, this is what she does all the time. I don't mind a hug and a kiss, but I'm tired of the trying to grab my crotch and stuff like that. She'll do it and when I say "not until later" or "maybe" and then later comes and she fell asleep on the couch. However last week she was able to stay up until almost midnight going for a walk with her friend.


She needed a pattern interrupt. I think it was a good choice.


----------



## anonmd

ZDog377 said:


> No, this is what she does all the time. I don't mind a hug and a kiss, but I'm tired of the trying to grab my crotch and stuff like that. * She'll do it and when I say "not until later" or "maybe" and then later comes and she fell asleep on the couch.* However last week she was able to stay up until almost midnight going for a walk with her friend.


WTF? Dude, the first three times I read the I figured she was putting you off, but it is you.

If the women grabs your crotch proceed immediately to taking her clothes off, carry her to the bed or stick your you know what in her mouth. If you are not getting enough sex make her stop you.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> Also, I never said it was just about the sex. I agree that a quickie has a time and place, but I prefer something more in depth. That's why this concerns me.


----------



## ZDog377

anonmd said:


> WTF? Dude, the first three times I read the I figured she was putting you off, but it is you.
> 
> If the women grabs your crotch proceed immediately to taking her clothes off, carry her to the bed or stick your you know what in her mouth. If you are not getting enough sex make her stop you.


I've tried doing stuff like that. She will push my hands away and tell me "not now". Even after she did it this last time I said let's go upstairs for a quickie. She just laughed and laughed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

bankshot1993 said:


> If my wife got all touchy feely and started groping me out of the blue, I would be absolutely thrilled that she initiated something and I'd be all over it (so to speak).


Believe me, I used to be all over it. Then she wouldn't do anything after. She would tease and it would never progress into more. I can count on one hand the number of times we have had quickie sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

turnera said:


> Why can't you just go with it when she does it and carry her into the bedroom for a quickie?


With 3 kids around?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## naiveonedave

ZDog377 said:


> With 3 kids around?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


yes


----------



## bankshot1993

yeah, I can understand where that would be a problem.


----------



## ZDog377

naiveonedave said:


> yes


And explain to me what happens when the kids chase after us?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## naiveonedave

lock the bedroom door, it isn't that complicated.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bankshot1993 said:


> If my wife got all touchy feely and started groping me out of the blue, I would be absolutely thrilled that she initiated something and I'd be all over it (so to speak).


Problem is.... she doesn't initiate to finish the job.

She initiates then leaves him hanging.

Its why this time he called her on it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> I've tried doing stuff like that. She will push my hands away and tell me "not now". Even after she did it this last time I said let's go upstairs for a quickie. She just laughed and laughed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





naiveonedave said:


> lock the bedroom door, it isn't that complicated.


She doesn't let it get that far Dave or I would be telling him the same.


----------



## anonmd

Disney movie on the tv and a lock on the door, 2 year old napping...


----------



## naiveonedave

Blossom Leigh said:


> She doesn't let it get that far Dave or I would be telling him the same.


I agree, so he needs to man up.


----------



## ZDog377

naiveonedave said:


> I agree, so he needs to man up.


Explain....are you saying just deal with it and suck it up or tell her we are going upstairs no matter what you say?


----------



## turnera

That's why I said CARRY her to the bedroom.

This is becoming a massive sh*t test in your marriage. She is doubting your manhood and laughing at you. Sounds like a tipping point to me.


----------



## happy as a clam

turnera said:


> That's why I said CARRY her to the bedroom.
> 
> This is becoming a massive sh*t test in your marriage. She is doubting your manhood and laughing at you. Sounds like a tipping point to me.


Yep. When your spouse starts laughing at you at the suggestion of sex,I would say it's time to pull the plug. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## usernamegoeshere

ZDog377 said:


> With 3 kids around?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes. Sorry I am just kind of butting in here while researching other things in the same neighborhood just with the opposite sex. 

Unless your kids are toddler aged and it would pose a safety threat lock the door. Hide in the laundry room, bathroom, wherever. I'm just reading parts of your post but she was your lover before she was a mother. This is a difficult thing to live through I can imagine.

I wish I had better advice for you. I will follow this to see how it goes and get advice for myself as well. Take care. 

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


----------



## ZDog377

usernamegoeshere said:


> Yes. Sorry I am just kind of butting in here while researching other things in the same neighborhood just with the opposite sex.
> 
> Unless your kids are toddler aged and it would pose a safety threat lock the door. Hide in the laundry room, bathroom, wherever. I'm just reading parts of your post but she was your lover before she was a mother. This is a difficult thing to live through I can imagine.
> 
> I wish I had better advice for you. I will follow this to see how it goes and get advice for myself as well. Take care.
> 
> Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


Kids are 10, 3, and 1. I can tell the 10 year old to play outside, depends on the mood of the 3 year old whether he will sit and watch TV or not. The 1 year old is like a shark and smells blood in the water when his mother leaves the room. He doesn't really nap either. 

That and I would have to change the door knob out to one that has a lock. No big deal, just saying.....


----------



## MarriedTex

I disagree witht the folks suggesting an affair. But i tend to be trusting on stuff like that.

I think you have a good news / bad news situation. Good news is that wife still recognizes role of flirting, still recognizes that she can turn you on. She just doesn't have the energy to deliver on the the activities implied by her flirting. In short, she still wants to be desired by you but she does not have a compelling desire to have sex with you. Part of this can be explained by having a 1 year old and 3 year old around the house while still having to live the active out-of-the-house life of a 10-year-old. She's trying to provide the life that she sees that everyone in the family wants. You just happen to come up on the bottom of her priority list.

What's the grandparent / family support situation look like? 

If she's not done with breastfeeding, she should be soon. I heartily suggest an in-town hotel getaway where grandparents take care of the kids from Friday night to Sunday afternoon. If done once every six months or so, they can help you find at least a small sliver of time to re-connect as a couple. 

She's on the Mommy treadmill. Don't be another kid that she has to take care of. Be a leader. Plan things that you can do as a couple that temporarily allow her to escape Mommy mode. Right now, you're acting like a whiny child denied his cookies. If you want an adult relationship with your wife, step up to the plate and get it done. If she doesn't respond to your leadership efforts, then it would be time to step back and re-evaluate.

You've identified the problem. Now, it's your task to find a solution. Your wife is in Mommy mode 24 / 7. Whining is not going to break that cycle. Positive, decisive action will.


----------



## Cynthia

Your sex life problems have nothing to do with the kids.


----------



## ZDog377

MarriedTex said:


> I disagree witht the folks suggesting an affair. But i tend to be trusting on stuff like that.
> 
> I think you have a good news / bad news situation. Good news is that wife still recognizes role of flirting, still recognizes that she can turn you on. She just doesn't have the energy to deliver on the the activities implied by her flirting. In short, she still wants to be desired by you but she does not have a compelling desire to have sex with you. Part of this can be explained by having a 1 year old and 3 year old around the house while still having to live the active out-of-the-house life of a 10-year-old. She's trying to provide the life that she sees that everyone in the family wants. You just happen to come up on the bottom of her priority list.
> 
> What's the grandparent / family support situation look like?
> 
> If she's not done with breastfeeding, she should be soon. I heartily suggest an in-town hotel getaway where grandparents take care of the kids from Friday night to Sunday afternoon. If done once every six months or so, they can help you find at least a small sliver of time to re-connect as a couple.
> 
> She's on the Mommy treadmill. Don't be another kid that she has to take care of. Be a leader. Plan things that you can do as a couple that temporarily allow her to escape Mommy mode. Right now, you're acting like a whiny child denied his cookies. If you want an adult relationship with your wife, step up to the plate and get it done. If she doesn't respond to your leadership efforts, then it would be time to step back and re-evaluate.
> 
> You've identified the problem. Now, it's your task to find a solution. Your wife is in Mommy mode 24 / 7. Whining is not going to break that cycle. Positive, decisive action will.


I'm working on not being another kid to take care of. She's going up to visit family this weekend and I'm staying home with one of the kids to go to a basketball tournament. Family/grandparent support is close to non-existent. My dad and his wife have admitted that they just don't have the energy to keep up with them anymore. Her family is 3 hours away. I've told her plenty of times, let's just go to bed and talk. We did that once and ended up watching funny videos online and stuff, we laughed and it was great. We just haven't had that much time since plus when we both get to bed one of us usually falls asleep within 10 minutes. Baseball season is coming up too so that will make things fun if he plays a 8-10 PM game Friday nights. 

She has also said that she considers "family" time more important to her than "us" time. She would be happy if we spent all weekend running around and just came home to sleep.


----------



## MarriedTex

ZDog377 said:


> I'm working on not being another kid to take care of. She's going up to visit family this weekend and I'm staying home with one of the kids to go to a basketball tournament. Family/grandparent support is close to non-existent. My dad and his wife have admitted that they just don't have the energy to keep up with them anymore. Her family is 3 hours away. I've told her plenty of times, let's just go to bed and talk. We did that once and ended up watching funny videos online and stuff, we laughed and it was great. We just haven't had that much time since plus when we both get to bed one of us usually falls asleep within 10 minutes. Baseball season is coming up too so that will make things fun if he plays a 8-10 PM game Friday nights.
> 
> She has also said that she considers "family" time more important to her than "us" time. She would be happy if we spent all weekend running around and just came home to sleep.


OK, so her family is three hours away. Are they capable of taking care of kids for weekend? Do they have lifestyle flexibility to do that? Some (not all) grandparents would love to have some solo time with their grandkids. Have them come to your place for a week. First couple of days, they're visiting with you and getting the lay of the land. Then you disappear to a hotel for the weekend. Or maybe do it just for one day the first time.

Do you have brothers & sisters with kids? Maybe engineer a trade. You take their kids one weekend and they reciprocate later on.

In terms of her being happy with family time & sleep, that's all on you. If you accept that statement without challenging it, then her priorities become the law of the land. You have no one to blame but yourself if you don't speak up. You have to begin setting at least soft boundaries or expectations of what is acceptable.

Next time she makes such a statement, your job is to "agree that family time is important and great. That's why I want "us" time. Our relationship is the core strength of this family and if we don't keep that strong then the family rots from the inside. The best way to make sure that we keep on enjoying family time for many years to come is to make sure that we don't neglect the "us" time to nurture the relationship at the root of everything."


----------



## Cynthia

Grandparents are not an option to watch the kids.


ZDog377 said:


> I'm working on not being another kid to take care of. She's going up to visit family this weekend and I'm staying home with one of the kids to go to a basketball tournament. *Family/grandparent support is close to non-existent. My dad and his wife have admitted that they just don't have the energy to keep up with them anymore. Her family is 3 hours away. * I've told her plenty of times, let's just go to bed and talk. We did that once and ended up watching funny videos online and stuff, we laughed and it was great. We just haven't had that much time since plus when we both get to bed one of us usually falls asleep within 10 minutes. Baseball season is coming up too so that will make things fun if he plays a 8-10 PM game Friday nights.
> 
> She has also said that she considers "family" time more important to her than "us" time. She would be happy if we spent all weekend running around and just came home to sleep.


----------



## ZDog377

I've tried every solution I can think of for weekend child care. Her mom says it costs too much to come down. Her dad will come down every now and then but he can't handle the three and one year old.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

ZDog377 said:


> I've tried every solution I can think of for weekend child care. Her mom says it costs too much to come down. Her dad will come down every now and then but he can't handle the three and one year old.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So you've gone to all the local high schools and junior colleges and universities and told them you're looking for a weekend-only au pair? What could be more perfect?


----------



## ZDog377

turnera said:


> So you've gone to all the local high schools and junior colleges and universities and told them you're looking for a weekend-only au pair? What could be more perfect?


I'd love to go and do that, but what do you think the cost would be? She has all the normal list of requirements for someone that's going to be watching the kids overnight. We would also need to have them watch them a few times to make sure the kids are OK with them.


----------



## mary35

ZDog377 said:


> So just to summarize things, I believe tonight is the night that I'm going to say something I regret. I just came downstairs from a work conference call and she was trying to be all touchy/feely. Rub, hug, kiss, all that stuff. I asked if she was doing it now because she wasn't planning on doing it later. She got all mad and stated that was the reason why she doesn't do it often. She says I ask for it too much. I said that maybe if it happened more often, I wouldn't complain as much and maybe I want to know what time we are going to bed so I can spend time with you.......


Try an experiment, for the next couple of months, when she does the grab, hug stuff - take her into your arms, give her a very passionate kiss, pull away and say something like, Dam! Woman you are so hot. Wish I had time to get some more of those sweet little lips, but I got things to do. Then kiss her again, say I couldn't resist, then walk away with a smile on the face. You could even pat her on the butt before walking away. 

But don't say later and don't expect anything later. 

Don't connect it to anything, except as a chance for you two to connect romantically for a few minutes of your day, and an opportunity to show how sexy she is to you. Don't be gushy, and even if she pulls away from the kiss, still say something complimentary, before walking away. Vary your approach and comments and be manly playful about it. And keep it short and sweet. And for good measure, should she suggest you do more, turn her down the first time, saying something like - oh my sweet temptress, wish I could but got things I have to do right now. Your making it hard, literally, but another time. - Kiss on the cheek and walk away.

You have told her that it's not about sex but that you want more time and attention from her. In her way, that's what she is giving and she is venturing out of her mommy mode, even if for only a minute - and you are making it all about sex. 

Instead, encourage this attitude, and reward her for it. Take what she gives you in a manly way - and perhaps as you show her it's not about sex (even though it is), maybe her desire for you will increase. It may not, but what you did above, got you no where, except made both of you mad. So try something different. Give it a couple of months and see if it makes a difference. 

The idea is to reestablish some playful flirting between the two of you again. And to show her you think she is hot all the time, and its not only sex you want, but truly do want more of an overall romantic connection with her. What do you have to lose?


----------



## mary35

ZDog377 said:


> I'd love to go and do that, but what do you think the cost would be? She has all the normal list of requirements for someone that's going to be watching the kids overnight. We would also need to have them watch them a few times to make sure the kids are OK with them.


Do you have friends you can swap with now and then? When we were young parents we joined a neighborhood babysitting co-op. Perhaps you could organize one with your friends and neighbors. Basically the idea is someone is the treasurer or recorder. Parents take turns a month at a time doing this. When you watch someone's kids you accumulate time to spend. Say you watch them for 3 hours. Then when you need a sitter you call the treasure, they send out the call to the group for a sitter. You use the time you have accumulated. The group establishes the rules, like who will send out the request, who reports the transaction, can you go in the hole, if so for how many hours. etc...


----------



## mary35

more info on babysitting co-ops or swaps

http://www.frugal-mama.com/2010/02/how-to-start-a-babysitting-co-op-part-1/

http://www.frugal-mama.com/2013/03/swap-your-kids-and-get-more-time-to-yourself/


----------



## jld

MarriedTex said:


> Next time she makes such a statement, your job is to "agree that family time is important and great. That's why I want "us" time. Our relationship is the core strength of this family and if we don't keep that strong then the family rots from the inside. The best way to make sure that we keep on enjoying family time for many years to come is to make sure that we don't neglect the "us" time to nurture the relationship at the root of everything."


The best way for him to keep the relationship strong is by nurturing her, not by demanding she nurture him.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> The best way for him to keep the relationship strong is by nurturing her, not by demanding she nurture him.


You can nurture an alligator all you want... Will it change anything at the end?


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> You can nurture an alligator all you want... Will it change anything at the end?


She is not an alligator. She is the mom of two very young kids, and one still young kid. I think she is trying to meet his needs. He needs to not reject her efforts.


----------



## Chaparral

You mentioned a few posts back about you crying. Have you cried in front of your wife?

Number one rule of suspecting infidelity, never ask the spouse if they are cheating or you are even wondering about infidelity. BTW, about thirty five percent of wives cheat. So odds wise, you have about a 1 in 3 chance your wife is or will cheat.

Get a var for the house to hear who and what she is telling/talking about. Get another var for the car. Heavy velcro under the dash. GPS is a good idea too?

BTW, how do you actually know she is walking with the friend she says she is?

About you, get the book linked to below. MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER. It can be downloaded at Barnes and Noble or amazon. Go read the reviews at both sites. There is also a blog. Unfortunately, my impression of reading all your posts this morning is that your man card has been recalled. You come across as needy, whiny, out of shape, hovering, etc. You sound like an attractive woman's orbiter that is looking for bread crumbs. 

If you do cry in front of her I hope she hits you with a cast iron frying pan.

Good luck, get the book now and read it before morning. Also, google the book NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY free download. Read that second.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> She is not an alligator. She is the mom of two very young kids, and one still young kid. I think she is trying to meet his needs. He needs to not reject her efforts.


Even while she's rejecting his efforts. Makes perfect sense


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Teasing manipulation is not authentic effort.


----------



## Cynthia

Blossom Leigh said:


> Teasing manipulation is not authentic effort.


I agree. She is clearly teasing.


----------



## Annie123

OP, you mentioned in one of your previous threads that sex has become painful for her after the birth of your third kid. Has that changed?


----------



## ZDog377

Chaparral said:


> You mentioned a few posts back about you crying. Have you cried in front of your wife?
> 
> Number one rule of suspecting infidelity, never ask the spouse if they are cheating or you are even wondering about infidelity. BTW, about thirty five percent of wives cheat. So odds wise, you have about a 1 in 3 chance your wife is or will cheat.
> 
> Get a var for the house to hear who and what she is telling/talking about. Get another var for the car. Heavy velcro under the dash. GPS is a good idea too?
> 
> BTW, how do you actually know she is walking with the friend she says she is?
> 
> About you, get the book linked to below. MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER. It can be downloaded at Barnes and Noble or amazon. Go read the reviews at both sites. There is also a blog. Unfortunately, my impression of reading all your posts this morning is that your man card has been recalled. You come across as needy, whiny, out of shape, hovering, etc. You sound like an attractive woman's orbiter that is looking for bread crumbs.
> 
> If you do cry in front of her I hope she hits you with a cast iron frying pan.
> 
> Good luck, get the book now and read it before morning. Also, google the book NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY free download. Read that second.


So I've cried in front of her because I don't want to lose what I have and I'm frustrated up to that point. If it causes her to hit me with a frying pan, I guess I deserved it. 

Explain to me why my man card is recalled? I'll agree with the whiny part to an extent, but sorry that I need to spend some time with my wife. What's up with the out of shape comment, just because I said I started going to the gym? 

I don't know if she's really going wherever she says she's going when she leaves the house. I've been trusting of her up until this point. I guess it is something I need to re-evaluate.


----------



## ZDog377

Annie123 said:


> OP, you mentioned in one of your previous threads that sex has become painful for her after the birth of your third kid. Has that changed?


It had for a while, she had the surgery to get it fixed. They were not able to fix 100% of the problem though. The past few times have been better. I haven't been able to narrow down what the difference is yet though.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I am not one who advocates for men to hide their hearts pain from their wives. Whiny no, but authentic pain should be shared. It opens the opportunity for mutual empathy which is a relational cornerstone that can be built upon.


----------



## Annie123

ZDog377 said:


> It had for a while, she had the surgery to get it fixed. They were not able to fix 100% of the problem though. The past few times have been better. I haven't been able to narrow down what the difference is yet though.


I remember that you wrote that they were able to remove about 30% of the scar tissue. I'm just thinking, maybe pain is still a bigger factor than you think it is.


----------



## ZDog377

Annie123 said:


> I remember that you wrote that they were able to remove about 30% of the scar tissue. I'm just thinking, maybe pain is still a bigger factor than you think it is.


I would like to think she would tell me, she seemed more into it the past two times than she was right after the surgery. She obviously had no problem voicing her displeasure before.


----------



## ZDog377

So, not much happened this weekend. She was out of town from Saturday morning to Sunday early evening. She had to do some running around when she got home so we really didn't spend much more than an hour or so together this weekend. We had planned on spending some time together last night but our middle son didn't fall asleep until late. 

We have a family trip planned for next Saturday, so hopefully we can spend time together Sunday. 

Does anyone have any good information on GPS tracking systems?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

yea @CynthiaDe writes about a neat way to do that, but I'll let her fill you in.

Blossom is NOT a techy


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## Cynthia

Blossom Leigh said:


> yea @CynthiaDe writes about a neat way to do that, but I'll let her fill you in.
> 
> Blossom is NOT a techy


On GPS? The only idea I have is to get a new cell phone and use the GPS to track it. Since you aren't recording with it, the phone can be hidden in many places that no one would normally look. 
Is that what you were talking about Blossom?


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## anonmd

Take a look under the dash in her car and see how far out of view the OBDC port is, this gadget might be usable: http://www.amazon.com/Linxup-Tracke...ef=sr_1_7?s=gps&ie=UTF8&qid=1458580345&sr=1-7

The port is generally to the left of the steering column on the drivers side underneath...


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## Blossom Leigh

CynthiaDe said:


> On GPS? The only idea I have is to get a new cell phone and use the GPS to track it. Since you aren't recording with it, the phone can be hidden in many places that no one would normally look.
> Is that what you were talking about Blossom?


Yes Ma'am


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## Cynthia

anonmd said:


> Take a look under the dash in her car and see how far out of view the OBDC port is, this gadget might be usable: http://www.amazon.com/Linxup-Tracke...ef=sr_1_7?s=gps&ie=UTF8&qid=1458580345&sr=1-7
> 
> The port is generally to the left of the steering column on the drivers side underneath...


I wonder if this thing lights up, so you can see a light shining under the dash. That would be my only concern, but it looks really good.

Another idea is to get a GPS devise that finds your car if it's stolen. I don't know if they still have LoJack, but that might work and you could put it in both vehicles telling your wife you're concerned about car theft.


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## anonmd

3 small holes in the end to LED's. Scrape the sticker off and cover the end in black electrical tape.


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## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> I wonder if this thing lights up, so you can see a light shining under the dash. That would be my only concern, but it looks really good.
> 
> Another idea is to get a GPS devise that finds your car if it's stolen. I don't know if they still have LoJack, but that might work and you could put it in both vehicles telling your wife you're concerned about car theft.


I know I'm reaching here but my other concerns are this: it has a name on it she can Google and also if she has car troubles during the week and they need to do diagnostics they will find it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonmd

No risk no reward. 

You've got 36 pages of knocking down suggestions . At some point you need to choose a course of action, or inaction.


----------



## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> I know I'm reaching here but my other concerns are this: it has a name on it she can Google and also if she has car troubles during the week and they need to do diagnostics they will find it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then put a GPS enabled phone in the trunk, under the carpet where she won't see it. There are places you can hide things without her seeing them. 
Are you having car problems? If so, you take the car in for a diagnostic now. It is highly unlikely that something is going to go wrong with the car where she will need a diagnostic done. When is the last time that happened?


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## anonmd

ZDog377 said:


> I know I'm reaching here but my other concerns are this: it has a name on it she can Google and also if she has car troubles during the week and they need to do diagnostics they will find it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


BTW, sure they will find it. 

"They" will unplug it, run their test and plug it back in. OBDC monitors are pretty common these days, it is not a scandal...


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## CharlieParker

If youy can access her phone (sorry didn't look back) check out GPS Tracker: Real-Time GPS Tracking for Your Mobile Devices It's a location sharing app that can run in a "hidden" mode on Android. It doesn't update super real time when on the move (it tries to conserve battery) but works well enough when someone gets to a destination.


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## ZDog377

anonmd said:


> No risk no reward.
> 
> You've got 36 pages of knocking down suggestions . At some point you need to choose a course of action, or inaction.


I've done some of the suggestions....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

CharlieParker said:


> If youy can access her phone (sorry didn't look back) check out GPS Tracker: Real-Time GPS Tracking for Your Mobile Devices It's a location sharing app that can run in a "hidden" mode on Android. It doesn't update super real time when on the move (it tries to conserve battery) but works well enough when someone gets to a destination.


I like that idea. I will try and get access to her phone this weekend. I still need to transfer some stuff off it anyways.


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## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> I like that idea. I will try and get access to her phone this weekend. I still need to transfer some stuff off it anyways.


That would be perfect timing. She'd never know and you would get information even if she got into someone else's vehicle or if she really is going for walks.


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## ZDog377

Can anybody recommend any key loggers or anything else so I can track her PC?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

@GusPolinski
@weightlifter


----------



## eric1

Does she have a laptop or a desktop computer?


----------



## ZDog377

eric1 said:


> Does she have a laptop or a desktop computer?


Its a laptop computer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski

@ZDog377, check your PMs.


----------



## ZDog377

So, an update from this weekend. I was not able to get any type of tracking on her phone. We had a decent night Friday night and Sunday night but Saturday night didn't go too well. We were able to get out for a lunch and some shopping in the afternoon without the kids bir started to do some talking on the way home. I asked if we could spend some more time together later that night after the kids went to bed. 

Things went south from there because she thought I meant sex and I explained that I meant more laying in bed and that stuff. She started asking why I've been so different lately and why it seemed like I was second guessing everything she said. I then asked her what she thought when I didn't want to do anything with her a few years back. She said that she thought I was cheating on her. I didn't respond for a few minutes and she all of sudden got the hint that it was what I was getting at. She then told me that she's had an idea that was what was bugging me. She also said that she's thought that could have been it for a month or so. I asked why she didn't change anything to try and make me think differently, she said shw didn't see anything wrong. 

I then pointed out to her all the things that seemed weird to me over the past few months. She finally understood where I was coming from. I also told her it was even worse that I was trying to do things to improve us and it didn't seem to be going anywhere. 

We spent a lot of time talking Sunday, we are going to read the 5 Love Languages again so we know what each others languages are. I know one of mine is physical touch and one of hers is acts of service but we are not sure on the second for either of us. She also cooked me breakfast this morning and it was good to see her being happy again. 

I'm not happy with the way everything came out this weekend, but it feels like it is no longer the elephant in the room.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marc878

It's odd to me than when you are at home she's away a lot. I hope it's nothing but you need to verify what you're dealing with. A quick look at your phone bill would be a good place yo start.

Good luck.


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## Blossom Leigh

Its good to be open now and talking about these things. Direct is good.


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## brooklynAnn

ZDog, talking openly is so important. It's good that you are letting her know what you are thinking and how you feel. Remember, as much as we would like, no one is a mindreader.

Seems, like you are making small tiny steps in the right direction. You keep working on you and see how she reacts. Don't expect things to change over night.

It looks like she is a bit distant and withdrawn from the relationship. Keep working on it and in time if she is still there, it will turn around.


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## ZDog377

I do feel communication is our issue. When we talked this weekend we realized that if we have a problem with something we need to come out and say it. We were both holding things in because we didn't know when was a good time to say them. 

I've also started the whole "dating" her again idea. I started remembering the things that made us fall in love in the first place. It's only been a few days but asking what I can do to help (even if it is nothing) and sending her little notes seems to have made a huge improvement in how she acts towards me. The diet she is doing now seems to be working good and that is making a noticeable difference in her attitude. 

I do need to keep telling myself that all these problems did not happen overnight and they aren't going to fix themselves overnight. As long as we are progressing forward it will be a good thing.


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## Sports Fan

Have you VARED her car yet?


----------



## Marc878

ZDog377 said:


> I do feel communication is our issue. When we talked this weekend we realized that if we have a problem with something we need to come out and say it. We were both holding things in because we didn't know when was a good time to say them.
> 
> I've also started the whole "dating" her again idea. I started remembering the things that made us fall in love in the first place. It's only been a few days but asking what I can do to help (even if it is nothing) and sending her little notes seems to have made a huge improvement in how she acts towards me. The diet she is doing now seems to be working good and that is making a noticeable difference in her attitude.
> 
> I do need to keep telling myself that all these problems did not happen overnight and they aren't going to fix themselves overnight. As long as we are progressing forward it will be a good thing.


Perhaps a trip down memory lane. I've taken my wife back to places we went before getting married. It was a big hit. Lots of fun talking about the good times.


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## ZDog377

Sports Fan said:


> Have you VARED her car yet?


I haven't yet and I'm not 100% sure I still plan to. I can't predict when she's going to clean it out so under the seat is a bad idea. I need to find a good place under the dash if I am going to do it.


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## ZDog377

Marc878 said:


> Perhaps a trip down memory lane. I've taken my wife back to places we went before getting married. It was a big hit. Lots of fun talking about the good times.


I've started to plan a trip or two, child care is the big issue. She's talked to her mom about the one trip and her mom said she wouldn't mind watching the kids but she's starting a new job and don't know if she will be able to get the time off. 

I'm planning some things for this weekend, so we will see how things go.


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## Marc878

Doesn't have to be expensive. Just fun. Maybe lunch and take her shopping for some things she needs. 

Dinner and a movie. Every now and then I take mine to see a chic flick. Even if you throw up in your mouth you can get through it.


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## ZDog377

Got to meet the friend that's going through separation last night. We had a party at our house last night for a wrestling event and had some friends over. All of a sudden she tells me the friend is coming over. She gets there and proceeds to tell my wife's other friend everything that has been going on while we are trying to watch TV.

This morning my wife tells me I was rude to her friend. She couldn't remember exactly what it was though. I told her there was something about said friend thaf rubbed me the wrong way and that she was a "toxic" friend. She never seems to ask how my wife is doing, she just immediately launches into a complaint session about her life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Sparta

OP You could have got to the bottom of this a lot sooner... But 0P anytime someone suggests you taking action you have a perfect excuse why not to..? Telling you there's something not right... and you are Aware of this also..? You could've got to the bottom of this weeks ago. Take some action do a little PI work... It sounds like you're aware of it also... after she defended her toxic friend can't even remember why she had to a good friend her, but she had to. that's a red flag if so many red flags are its unbelievable.


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## Talker67

mine used to complain "you are grabbing me all the time".

What i was doing was trying to romantically touch her.

I think the problem is that what a GUY thinks is romantic touching, is not the same thing a WOMAN thinks is romantic touching. 

For a guy it is boobs, butt, and one other place. For a Woman, i think those places are LAST on the list, after LOTS of time spent everywhere else. :grin2:


----------



## ZDog377

Talker67 said:


> mine used to complain "you are grabbing me all the time".
> 
> What i was doing was trying to romantically touch her.
> 
> I think the problem is that what a GUY thinks is romantic touching, is not the same thing a WOMAN thinks is romantic touching.
> 
> For a guy it is boobs, butt, and one other place. For a Woman, i think those places are LAST on the list, after LOTS of time spent everywhere else. :grin2:


I agree to an extent.....it's hard to change their perception of this as well. 

Things have started to change slightly here. She's been more touchy and stuff lately and wanting to do more, but the feeling just isn't there as much. It's confusing as hell to her as to why the feeling is the opposite of how it was a few months ago. 

I was able to look through her Facebook today and didn't see anything out of place on there either.


----------



## ZDog377

So we seem to be making some progress then we take some steps backwards. Slowly getting there though. We now have to contend with baseball season and her dad will be down for a week this week and also the week I get back from over seas. 

We did go on a small vacation this past weekend with the kids and my sister but didn't end up doing anything after the kids were in bed. 

I've been tracking things and it all adds up for her being where she says she will be and things like that. I'm just at a loss now for getting her to want to spend time together. The vacation was probably the happiest I had seen her in a while.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602

Not sure I follow. Her dad will be visiting for two weeks total plus you will be away for a time? 

Do you mean that during that time of her dads visit, you and your wife will not spend time alone? I don't think you can afford to break the momentum so, except for the time you are away, you should plan time for just you two. Her dad won't need constant attention and entertainment. He's been married so he will understand.


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## ZDog377

Catherine602 said:


> Not sure I follow. Her day will be visiting fro two weeks total plus you will be away for a time?
> 
> Do you mean that during that time of her dads visit, you and your wife will not spend time alone? I don't think you can afford to break the momentum so, except for the time you are away, you should plan time for just you two. Her dad won't need constant attention and entertainment. He's been married so he will understand.


Sorry, her dad will be here this week. Then he will be at home for two weeks and then I have a week off because I'm going over seas. He will be here again that week I am off.


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## Catherine602

So its too weeks, dad will be visiting and then you will be away. 

Don't beak the momentum while you are at home even when there are visitors. When you stop making time for each other for even a short time, its hard to get started again.


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## ZDog377

I'm kind of at a loss for what to do after this past weekend. We went out Saturday night for a little bit to a diner type place but not much else. It seems lately she is only doing things so I don't have anything to complain about. It just feels like there isn't a "want" to do it.


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## Blossom Leigh

Did yall talk?

Is she the type that would enjoy board games?


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## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> Did yall talk?
> 
> Is she the type that would enjoy board games?


Yeah, we talked but it was mostly about the kids and how the oldest is doing in baseball and how the middle one is starting t-ball in a month. Then she brought up summer camps and stuff like that. I'll talk about how I want to do stuff to the house and she will say how she wants to do a big project. She's resorted to putting the projects on a dry erase board in the kitchen so she can keep track of them. 

She likes board games and that, but by the time we can play later at night both of us are ready to fall asleep in 10 minutes.


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## turnera

She won't stay in love with you if you two don't spend time dating.


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## Cynthia

If you are too busy for each other, you are too busy.


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## Holdingontoit

ZDog377: Unfortunately, once you bring up the idea of more sex and your spouse doesn't respond, there are no easy and quick answers. This is likely to be a long slog unless you are willing to leave over this tomorrow. So if you aren't leaving, accept that this is going to take a while. Invest in improving yourself as a man and as a husband for your own sake. Do not measure the progress by whether you are getting more or better sex. Measure by whether you are more closely aligning your behavior with who you want to be as a person. That includes man, husband and father.

Do whatever share of chores around the house you feel is appropriate for you to be pulling your weight. Treat your wife the way you think you should treat her to be a good husband. Excel at work. Hit the gym. All of these are aspects of you becoming a better you. None of them, by themselves, is likely to result in you getting more and better sex. All of them together will either result in your wife becoming even more attracted to you and even more concerned that you might leave her (which should lead to more and better sex), or to you becoming that much more attractive to the woman you partner with after you leave your wife.

That is it. No magic wands. No games. You don't try to change her. You change you.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

turnera said:


> She won't stay in love with you if you two don't spend time dating.


He could date her perfectly and she still might not "stay in love" with him, if the underlying issue is never addressed. 


OP, you do know some people just become incompatible? I tend to just read and catch up, but there is something else going on. Contrary to popular beliefs, people do change and fall out of love. Skirting around the real issue(s) is only going to make you both miserable. It could be something simple or it could be very complex, but dancing around things because the marriage might implode is really no different than a slow lingering ending of one. Results are the same, only you just wasted your limited time on this earth.


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## ZDog377

Holdingontoit said:


> ZDog377: Unfortunately, once you bring up the idea of more sex and your spouse doesn't respond, there are no easy and quick answers. This is likely to be a long slog unless you are willing to leave over this tomorrow. So if you aren't leaving, accept that this is going to take a while. Invest in improving yourself as a man and as a husband for your own sake. Do not measure the progress by whether you are getting more or better sex. Measure by whether you are more closely aligning your behavior with who you want to be as a person. That includes man, husband and father.
> 
> Do whatever share of chores around the house you feel is appropriate for you to be pulling your weight. Treat your wife the way you think you should treat her to be a good husband. Excel at work. Hit the gym. All of these are aspects of you becoming a better you. None of them, by themselves, is likely to result in you getting more and better sex. All of them together will either result in your wife becoming even more attracted to you and even more concerned that you might leave her (which should lead to more and better sex), or to you becoming that much more attractive to the woman you partner with after you leave your wife.
> 
> That is it. No magic wands. No games. You don't try to change her. You change you.


I will say I've been going to the gym when I'm home, I need to do it more when I'm on the road. I've tried helping out more such as doing the dishes (not just loading the dishwasher) and as much laundry as I can besides mine. I do it because I know it eliminates one more thing she has to do, but I will either get a real quick "thanks" or "I do it during the week, what's the big deal". I've tried teaching the oldest how to do things, but I must be too old to know anything. I still fall for the drink that takes an hour to get or the eternal bathroom break. 

Let's use this past week as an example. I left Tuesday for work and should have been home Thursday early afternoon. Parts were needed and more testing was required so I didn't get home till late Friday night. Her dad was there the whole time I was gone and then left Sunday afternoon. I don't mind him coming down if it would be every other month, but he sleeps in the recliner in the living room and she always feels like she has to entertain him as well as the kids. We got into an argument because I wanted to talk to her for more than five minutes at night. 

I understand I need to be better about it not always being about the sex. I thought maybe after getting back from being over seas here in a week would make her realize how much she missed me, I doubt it. I asked her if we could set aside some time each night just to spend time with each other, not even sex, just cuddling, talking, or massages. We aren't going to have much time at home anyways she says, there is something going on every day.


----------



## FaithinVisionsRealized

There are several different dynamics that are going into play concerning the intimacy between you and your wife. First off, having 3 children can be very physically trying. Many women that I have worked with in practice that are stay at home mothers have commented about a diminished sex-drive due to children breaking the privacy bubble. This can happen in various ways such as following mom to the bathroom, constantly grabbing mom, hitting her, tapping her shoulders, nagging her. Parenting 3 children on your own for the week can be mentally exhausting and take away mom's energy for other activities. 

In addition to the challenges of parenting, there is a lack of time that is spent between you and your wife. This can lead to what I call the "Room mate" effect as both partners do inevitably change over time; however, in this case they do not change together. Bonding results from quality time spent together. A good resolution would be to reduce travel/ and combine this with skype dates online to engage both of you in bonding and contact.


----------



## ZDog377

FaithinVisionsRealized said:


> There are several different dynamics that are going into play concerning the intimacy between you and your wife. First off, having 3 children can be very physically trying. Many women that I have worked with in practice that are stay at home mothers have commented about a diminished sex-drive due to children breaking the privacy bubble. This can happen in various ways such as following mom to the bathroom, constantly grabbing mom, hitting her, tapping her shoulders, nagging her. Parenting 3 children on your own for the week can be mentally exhausting and take away mom's energy for other activities.
> 
> In addition to the challenges of parenting, there is a lack of time that is spent between you and your wife. This can lead to what I call the "Room mate" effect as both partners do inevitably change over time; however, in this case they do not change together. Bonding results from quality time spent together. A good resolution would be to reduce travel/ and combine this with skype dates online to engage both of you in bonding and contact.


I understand about the three kids being needy. The 10 year old is sometimes worse than the younger ones combined. Anyways, the one year old is usually the most demanding. I asked her what the rate would be to send him to daycare once a week. I would call around, but my requirements for daycare are different than hers. It wasn't bad for one day a week. It was either that or she could send him for two days for four hours. I suggested that because our middle son is in pre-school so that would give her at least some time 100% to herself a week. That hasn't happened yet. 

As far as the less travel, I have looked into it and right now I would have to take a pay cut. What I don't understand is this...I will have times where I am off for two weeks or a week because there is no work. Nothing changes during those weeks. I try and help more and take the kids places so she will have time to herself but nothing changes.

She has started a work from home job right now and it seems like that hasn't helped our situation. She says she feels the need to have her "own" money......


----------



## Tron

ZDog377 said:


> She has started a work from home job right now and it seems like that hasn't helped our situation. She says she feels the need to have her "own" money......


I don't like the sound of that.

Will you have access to it? Get to see the statements etc.?


----------



## ZDog377

Tron said:


> I don't like the sound of that.
> 
> Will you have access to it? Get to see the statements etc.?


I could see the statements if I wanted, I don't see any reason to at the moment. I hope I will not need access to it, I don't see her making more than 1/2 of what I make. I won't be complaining if she does. 

She will receive a 1099 at the end of the year for this job. I did tell her that if she's going to be driving her van more, she will be putting money aside for repair work on it. She already knows to set aside for taxes.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*

"Wife, let me make sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying that you are too busy to spend one hour a week, one on one, with your husband?"

I bet you haven't put it to her like that, have you. 

Frankly you sound like you are not very assertive.

It is really only coming down to one option at this point, but I don't know if you have the stomach for it.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## ZDog377

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



farsidejunky said:


> "Wife, let me make sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying that you are too busy to spend one hour a week, one on one, with your husband?"
> 
> I bet you haven't put it to her like that, have you.
> 
> Frankly you sound like you are not very assertive.
> 
> It is really only coming down to one option at this point, but I don't know if you have the stomach for it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I've come out and told her if we don't spend more time together now, there isn't going to be an "us" later on.


----------



## Catherine602

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ZDog377 said:


> I've come out and told her if we don't spend more time together now, there isn't going to be an "us" later on.


Don't say that if you don't mean it. You should have a master plan, timeline and benchmarks or your statement is empty. Pull out all of the stops to solve this. MC, if she won't go you go to learn relationship skills.

You have very young children. The 10 yo will be especially devastated. Think of them as you work on the marriage. If it does come to D, make it as child friendly as possible.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ZDog377 said:


> I've come out and told her if we don't spend more time together now, there isn't going to be an "us" later on.


Implied or specified threats of divorce is not what the one thing is.

Besides, just as I alluded to, threats are not assertive. Action is assertive.

Let me know when you are sufficiently tired of the current situation.


----------



## jd08

You are just fighting for scraps. Don't ever expect that she will actually change. There will be every excuse in the book. Being too tired because of kids is a good one because it can always be used. 

You'll get some upticks here and there that might make you feel like she actually gives a **** about you but then after the uptick it will go right back to getting nothing for weeks at a time with no explanation. Just don't let your expectations get too high.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I've been reading this since the beginning with little breaks here and there. I've got to say it, either quit your job or man up. You don't need to be a boar, but all of this asking and passive aggressive hints are for the weak. No, gender doesn't matter. Unless you are in the sub/dom world most relationships are miserable when there is a beggar as a spouse. I agree, women get touched out when kids are clawing them all day, but as you related more there was a deeper issue going on.Some posters ignored it and you did as well. She is and was shunning you since the beginning of the thread. You picked up the slack and the shunning actually became worse. Now, as another poster just related, you are begging for scraps. 

If you are going to stay for the family, go get counseling and learn how to deal with the issue. If you are going to leave do it now and cut all of the passive aggressive threats. If you stay for the kids, you have to LEARN how to "fake til you make it." Kids pick up on a miserable home no matter how well you think you are hiding the issue. If you aren't going to leave, quit threatening it at all. "Down the road" is a cop out and she knows it will change when you calm down. Or, contrary to what you think, she may no longer care at all.


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## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> She has started a work from home job right now and it seems like that hasn't helped our situation. She says she feels the need to have her "own" money......


She already doesn't use her child support money to support her child. You are supporting him. Now she thinks that her income from her job is her money as well. Your money is her money and her money is her money as well. So where does that leave you? A relationship should be balanced, but she calls all the shots and has all the power in the relationship. That is not attractive to women. It is obviously not attractive to your wife.


----------



## Tron

CynthiaDe said:


> You are supporting him. Now she thinks that her income from her job is her money as well. Your money is her money and her money is her money as well. So where does that leave you?


And that was the purpose of my question. She is building a nest egg for herself outside of what you provide.

For what purpose? 

If the funds are not commingled and you don't have access, then it can be used for anything...hidden away, for an attorney, for her affair(s), for solely her own benefit. That's why it doesn't sound good. 

You are moving down a path where you are going to get railroaded. Don't be a chump.


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## ZDog377

I would like to believe the money will go towards bills and other things so I don't have to pay as often. I do pay 99% of the bills currently. She pays one. She says she would like it to go to other things, such as if we want to go away for a weekend as a family and things like that. Another example was school pictures. They do both spring and fall pictures now. I said our oldest didn't need to get the spring ones done. She went ahead and got them anyways. I suggested that we get rid of cable to save money, she immediately started thinking of all the family activities we could do with the extra money.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> *I would like to believe *the money will go towards bills and other things so I don't have to pay as often.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is magic thinking. You can like believing anything you want, but if you don't express what you want, she will do whatever she wants. You are not exerting any of your will. You just let her walk all over you. Again, this is not an attractive trait.
Your wife dictates the money and your family schedule. You bring in the money and beg for sex. Sounds like a reasonable set up for her.


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## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> This is magic thinking. You can like believing anything you want, but if you don't express what you want, she will do whatever she wants. You are not exerting any of your will. You just let her walk all over you. Again, this is not an attractive trait.
> Your wife dictates the money and your family schedule. You bring in the money and beg for sex. Sounds like a reasonable set up for her.


We have always had separate bank accounts. If she needs money for groceries I give her the debit card and away she goes. If she needs a check for something, I sign one and give it to her. She has freely admitted that I am better at managing finances than her. Right now she pays for aflac and that is it. She will pay for little things now and then but I pay the household bills. 

I have tried to exert my will and in fact we had an argument this morning about it. I asked why the kids always had to be running around and she saw nothing the matter with it. I said that it doesn't teach them any down time. They don't know how to get into the car without having a tablet or toy with them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> I asked why the kids always had to be running around and she saw nothing the matter with it. I said that it doesn't teach them any down time. They don't know how to get into the car without having a tablet or toy with them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is very important for them to learn down time. You are spot on with this thought.


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## turnera

Do you at least have a 'no electronics at the table' rule?


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## Holdingontoit

Why even bother to come home? She doesn't have sex with you. She doesn't want to spend time with you. She just wants you to pay the bills. Stop coming home on the weekends. Get a girlfriend where you travel for work. Bring the gf to the hotel with you during the week. Have lots of hot sex. Then go to the gf's apartment on the weekends. Have more hot sex. Send the paychecks home to your wife. See if she notices anything missing. If not, you have your answer. Your wife may even prefer this arrangement and never ask questions or make waves about the gf.

And why the heck do you have a 1 year old? This has been going on long enough that you should have been wearing 3 condoms filled with spermicidal jelly on the rare occasions when your wife consents to sex. You might have been "free" in 8 or 10 years but now you have 18 more years to suffer with her. What were you (not) thinking? Please tell me that you will either never have sex with your wife again, or get a vasectomy, or wear 3 condoms coated with spermicide EVERY time (the few times) you have sex.


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## eric1

Is your wife atleast super hot? I fail to see to motivation for either of you to continue the marriage.

Is there a bedrock of unsaid love that isn't being articulated here?


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## Tron

Is your wife still breastfeeding by any chance?


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## ZDog377

Holdingontoit said:


> Why even bother to come home? She doesn't have sex with you. She doesn't want to spend time with you. She just wants you to pay the bills. Stop coming home on the weekends. Get a girlfriend where you travel for work. Bring the gf to the hotel with you during the week. Have lots of hot sex. Then go to the gf's apartment on the weekends. Have more hot sex. Send the paychecks home to your wife. See if she notices anything missing. If not, you have your answer. Your wife may even prefer this arrangement and never ask questions or make waves about the gf.
> 
> And why the heck do you have a 1 year old? This has been going on long enough that you should have been wearing 3 condoms filled with spermicidal jelly on the rare occasions when your wife consents to sex. You might have been "free" in 8 or 10 years but now you have 18 more years to suffer with her. What were you (not) thinking? Please tell me that you will either never have sex with your wife again, or get a vasectomy, or wear 3 condoms coated with spermicide EVERY time (the few times) you have sex.


The one year old will be two in September. Believe me, I make sure to use a condom any time we have sex just so she doesn't get pregnant. I recently had to buy new ones because we used up a 12 pack I bought last year. I laughed when I saw the 24 pack and realized they would expire before we used them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ZDog377

Tron said:


> Is your wife still breastfeeding by any chance?


She hasn't been for about 2-3 months now.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ZDog377

turnera said:


> Do you at least have a 'no electronics at the table' rule?


Yes we do. I will admit sometimes I don't follow through with it. 

Sorry for all the comments in a row, I don't know how to use the multi quote feature.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spotthedeaddog

She's equating your touch with something else, and reacting to that association.
It's quite a complex issue, because it reflects a redirection of bonding ties (you are "other"). You don't get "touched out" by inside people, you get touched out, when for some reason the touch draws more from you than you have to give to an outside person. Sadly not too sure how to get there from here.


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## ZDog377

spotthedeaddog said:


> She's equating your touch with something else, and reacting to that association.
> It's quite a complex issue, because it reflects a redirection of bonding ties (you are "other"). You don't get "touched out" by inside people, you get touched out, when for some reason the touch draws more from you than you have to give to an outside person. Sadly not too sure how to get there from here.


I definitely understand the fact that she's exhausted. She said I used to ask about it too much so I've stopped that. I try and do stuff for her so she has more time for herself and she ends up finding something else to do with the kids. Like I've said before, I know I won't come first all the time but I'm tired of her wanting to do stuff when there aren't any other options.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron

Breastfeeding has been known to kill libido. With a 1 year old in tow too, I am just not sure that it is a good time to be making general assessments about what is wrong with her and your sex life.

A lot of it could be hormonal.

Now that she stopped the breastfeeding the hormones should slowly go back to normal. It might be a good time to start MAPping and reevaluate in 6 months if you don't notice any significant change. I know that isn't what you want to hear.


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## Catherine602

eric1 said:


> Is your wife atleast super hot? I fail to see to motivation for either of you to continue the marriage.
> 
> Is there a bedrock of unsaid love that isn't being articulated here?


Can you explain how a superhot wife would be compensation for an emotionally close intimate marriage. No matter how she looked, she would still treat him badly. Do you mean that having a hot wife to look at will make his situation more bearable.


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## farsidejunky

@ZDog377:

Maya Angelou had a saying, and it is completely appropriate in your case.

_“Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option.”_

Let that sink in for a moment.

You are allowing your wife to be comfortable in your discomfort. Why?

If she were to die tomorrow, what things would you stop doing because you were doing them just for her? Do you rub her feet? Give her massages?

I know you try to do things around the house to help her, etc.

At this point, if it were me, it would be full stop on all of it. 

ALL OF IT. 

I would then focus on spending every extra moment with the kids or doing things by myself. Dress up nice and go out to dinner with a buddy, or even by yourself. Be happy. Immerse yourself in hobbies. Take your kids to the park. 

If she asks you to do things to help her, just smile and tell her no. Or, tell her you will, then don't do it. When she asks why you did not do it, tell her:

"You have made it clear that promising and not delivering is okay in our marriage."

When she complains about it (and I am certain she will due to having 3 kids, domestic duties, your travel, etc.) then that is an opening for you to say:

"If you want more from me, you can start by doing more for me."

Or:

"You have put me somewhere on the bottom of your priority list. When you are ready to raise that up near the top, I will be fully willing to reciprocate."

Then shut up and listen. This is when you and your wife will *actually* start communicating. To this point, it is not really happening. You are both tap dancing around the elephant in the room.

If she is willing to try, through actions as opposed to words, there is hope for your marriage. If not, stick a fork in it.

Either way, be freaking bold, dude. It is the only thing that will give you a shot at turning this thing around.


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## Blossom Leigh

Be mindful of the affect on libido that breastfeeding has that Tron mentioned. That is highly accurate. 

At the same time, I really like farside's description of shaking up homelife in a way to cause a wake up call at home. Call it a "healthy" reset.


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## john117

Catherine602 said:


> Can you explain how a superhot wife would be compensation for an emotionally close intimate marriage. No matter how she looked, she would still treat him badly. Do you mean that having a hot wife to look at will make his situation more bearable.


It's a mirage - but helps eliminate any self image issues from the picture.


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## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> Be mindful of the affect on libido that breastfeeding has that Tron mentioned. That is highly accurate.
> 
> At the same time, I really like farside's description of shaking up homelife in a way to cause a wake up call at home. Call it a "healthy" reset.


I honestly feel like it's worse now since she stopped nursing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> I honestly feel like it's worse now since she stopped nursing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It takes time for hormones to shift around. Might help to research it or call an OB to ask about it.


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## ZDog377

john117 said:


> It's a mirage - but helps eliminate any self image issues from the picture.


I've told her many times that I consider her attractive. I know for a fact though that she does have self image issues. She has said so herself.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*

Not ready to destabilize things yet, are you, brother.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## lifeistooshort

john117 said:


> It's a mirage - but helps eliminate any self image issues from the picture.


Absolutely untrue. "Super hot" women often have some of the lowest self esteem because all anyone ever wants from them is based on their looks so they're super sensitive to anything perceived flaw.

What Is It Like to Date or Marry a Fashion Model?


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## ZDog377

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



farsidejunky said:


> Not ready to destabilize things yet, are you, brother.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I didn't say I wasn't, just haven't been home to do it yet. Will be sort of difficult since her dad will supposedly be there the week I am home.


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## john117

lifeistooshort said:


> Absolutely untrue. "Super hot" women often have some of the lowest self esteem because all anyone ever wants from them is based on their looks so they're super sensitive to anything perceived flaw.
> 
> What Is It Like to Date or Marry a Fashion Model?


At the super hot range I agree. But most people aren't there. If she's a 9.5 and does not want intimacy because she's not a 10, then I can think of a few disorders to worry about.


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## eric1

Catherine602 said:


> Can you explain how a superhot wife would be compensation for an emotionally close intimate marriage. No matter how she looked, she would still treat him badly. Do you mean that having a hot wife to look at will make his situation more bearable.



Because as he has articulated it I cannot find a single reason under the sun of why he would stay with her.


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## WorkingWife

Plan 9 from OS said:


> You fly out Sunday afternoon, spend Monday thru Friday away, fly in Friday night and basically only have one 24 hour day a week that you spend with your wife and family? Just a guess on my part, but am I close to the mark?
> 
> IMHO, your wife has HUUUUUUGE resentments about your work schedule. You don't need help with improving intimacy, you need help trying to figure out how to stop traveling so much. Lack of sex is a symptom of the lack of time spent together, and the fact that she shoulders virtually all the burdens with raising 3 kids.


Wow. Good catch Plan 9!

Whether his wife is "resentful" or not, women more than men need to feel emotionally connected to want sex and intimacy. If the OP is traveling all week, even if they talk by phone, his wife is still losing her connection to him, and becoming more comfortable without him, all week. Having someone pop in at the end of the week and start touching her may feel very invasive. 

And yeah, she probably is resentful of the work schedule. 

I would look for a job that does not involve travel ASAP.


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## ZDog377

eric1 said:


> Because as he has articulated it I cannot find a single reason under the sun of why he would stay with her.


I know I'm probably going to get bashed for this, but I still do care about her. That reason and I do have two kids with her, especially when we were told that we would never have kids because of me.


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## eric1

ZDog377 said:


> I know I'm probably going to get bashed for this, but I still do care about her. That reason and I do have two kids with her, especially when we were told that we would never have kids because of me.


Well, then articulate why you are staying with her. List the reasons right her.

The challenge: don't include "history" in it - tell us why you are staying with her TODAY.


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## ZDog377

WorkingWife said:


> Wow. Good catch Plan 9!
> 
> Whether his wife is "resentful" or not, women more than men need to feel emotionally connected to want sex and intimacy. If the OP is traveling all week, even if they talk by phone, his wife is still losing her connection to him, and becoming more comfortable without him, all week. Having someone pop in at the end of the week and start touching her may feel very invasive.
> 
> And yeah, she probably is resentful of the work schedule.
> 
> I would look for a job that does not involve travel ASAP.


As I've stated before, I am looking for that job that is local. However, I cannot afford to take a pay cut right now. It might not be as bad if she goes back to work, but she would have to work third shift so we could handle the child care. It's definitely not out as a possibility but I think her working third shift will not make the problem any better. 

I'm also at the point where I'm not all over her any more when I get home. I give her a hug and a kiss and we cuddle in bed and things like that, but I'm not all over her like I used to be. It didn't help things. If she was in the mood, I let her take the lead.


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## Catherine602

Three children are hard to handle alone. Having two toddler's for 24 hrs is exhausting. Coupled that with body changes and a husband who seems to drop in occasionally asking for more of her and you have death of the libido. 

I'm not criticizing you Z, just trying to see the situation through a different lens. Having children was a joint decision as was your job. You are both dealing with your choices. She may be overwhelmed and you are lonely. Solving both of your problems may be the only way forward. Maybe you can try to approach it as a relationship problem not a sex problem.


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## MEM2020

Zdog,

Farsidejunky is NOT suggesting that you leave the marriage, or even threaten to do so. 

What he IS suggesting is that you strip the marriage down to its foundations - and in so doing - discover whether you are on top of a rock solid slab, or a cracked, sinking mess. 

Do that by deactivating the 'platinum service' plan you are currently providing. When you do that - you will quickly discover whether your wife loves YOU, or if she is simply remaining married because she loves what you DO for her. 

This is not about adding negative emotional energy into the marriage. 

Merely subtracting the endless stream of helpful, loving, approving, supportive behaviors you engaged in.





ZDog377 said:


> I know I'm probably going to get bashed for this, but I still do care about her. That reason and I do have two kids with her, especially when we were told that we would never have kids because of me.


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## ZDog377

Catherine602 said:


> Three children are hard to handle alone. Having two toddler's for 24 hrs is exhausting. Coupled that with body changes and a husband who seems to drop in occasionally asking for her for more than she is capable of giving, and you have death of the libido.
> 
> I'm not criticizing you Z, just trying to see the situation through a different lens. Having children was a joint decision as was your job. You are both dealing with your choices. She may be overwhelmed and you are lonely. Solving both of your problems may be the only way forward. Maybe you can try to approach it as a relationship problem not a sex problem.


I agree that it was a joint decision. We both agreed that she would stay home with the kids because of the cost of day care. I will admit that I see it her way sometimes, that is why I try and help out as much as I can when I'm home. I'm not expecting to have a party thrown for me each time I do the dishes but a genuine thanks would be nice. Lately it's been "I do that by myself during the week". Every now and then she will throw in my face that I couldn't do what she does week in and week out. I tell her that I might not do great right away but I'll make it through it and do my best.


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## turnera

Do you thank HER every day when SHE washes the dishes? Folds your clothes? Irons your shirts? Picks up your trash? Cooks your dinner? 

I'm not saying you owe her that, but you then say when YOU do one of those things "a thank you would be nice." 

Well, then, why bring it up?

This is exactly what she's talking about.


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## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> I agree that it was a joint decision. We both agreed that she would stay home with the kids because of the cost of day care. I will admit that I see it her way sometimes, that is why I try and help out as much as I can when I'm home. I'm not expecting to have a party thrown for me each time I do the dishes but a genuine thanks would be nice. Lately it's been "I do that by myself during the week". Every now and then she will throw in my face that I couldn't do what she does week in and week out. I tell her that I might not do great right away but I'll make it through it and do my best.


As a stay at home mother of three little kids (who are now pretty much grown) I can interpret this for you. She is saying she is overwhelmed and feels unappreciated. She is also disconnected from you.

I understand the issue with the cost of daycare. It can make it impossible for a mother to work outside the home. For me, my husband was home every night for the first few years, then he was gone 3/4 weeks and home only on weekends. It was tough.

We used to pack up and follow him when we could. We are a homeschool family, so I would pack up their books and we would do schooling during the day, then they would play in the pool until he got back from work.

I know that wouldn't work for you with the oldest in school and all the activities that your kids are involved in. I limited activities due to believing that family time is more important. They turned out just fine.

The thing is that you two need to face the problem and work through it together or your relationship will never improve. It's not something you can do alone. There has to be a solution.

There are a couple of things that come to my mind. #1 Cut out the activities that are costing so much money and use the child support money to support the child in food, clothing, and shelter. If that's not enough, move into a smaller place and cut out all non-necessity items. If you did those things, could you work a lesser paying job?


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## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> As a stay at home mother of three little kids (who are now pretty much grown) I can interpret this for you. She is saying she is overwhelmed and feels unappreciated. She is also disconnected from you.
> 
> I understand the issue with the cost of daycare. It can make it impossible for a mother to work outside the home. For me, my husband was home every night for the first few years, then he was gone 3/4 weeks and home only on weekends. It was tough.
> 
> We used to pack up and follow him when we could. We are a homeschool family, so I would pack up their books and we would do schooling during the day, then they would play in the pool until he got back from work.
> 
> I know that wouldn't work for you with the oldest in school and all the activities that your kids are involved in. I limited activities due to believing that family time is more important. They turned out just fine.
> 
> The thing is that you two need to face the problem and work through it together or your relationship will never improve. It's not something you can do alone. There has to be a solution.
> 
> There are a couple of things that come to my mind. #1 Cut out the activities that are costing so much money and use the child support money to support the child in food, clothing, and shelter. If that's not enough, move into a smaller place and cut out all non-necessity items. If you did those things, could you work a lesser paying job?


The smaller place is an interesting question. Right now I feel we are in a house that is too small. Each of the kids have their own room and we have ours. There is not much extra room in the house. Also, the housing market is bad where we are so I do not know if we could even sell. 

The activities do not cost that much money, it is the time involved. Especially now that the middle one is starting t-ball. She put me down as being able to help coach when I am home, but I was somehow appointed head coach of the team. I'm glad she was able to call and get that straightened out. She is letting them both play soccer in the fall, but only because they will both be playing at the same field. Neither the baseball games or soccer games will have admission and we have tried to save by buying snacks in bulk so we do not have to buy from the concession stand. 

We had a quick talk about this last night due to the time difference. I explained how I felt that her working a third shift would only complicate things again. We then talked about how involved she is with the school. She named three school related things she had to accomplish this week within the 20 minutes I was on the phone with her. I then asked what is wrong with telling someone "no" that you can't help with that appreciation day or that school fundraiser. She told me that she is not as involved as some parents are. 

I then explained that I would be able to go to more things if I was home and she became all excited because then I could help with volunteering to help coach and other things. I said that helping out all the time is not my thing and she asked why would I not help if I had the time? 

I agreed with her that I would like the job at home but I explained that there are other things to consider as well. I get two weeks vacation currently, but I have had an additional four due to no work for the week or the job only lasted Monday to Wednesday. I explained to her that I would not get this with a new job. The seniority is something that I have to deal with, I feel like I am throwing away almost five years of experience at this job if I would leave. These are all things I need to work out.


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## ZDog377

turnera said:


> Do you thank HER every day when SHE washes the dishes? Folds your clothes? Irons your shirts? Picks up your trash? Cooks your dinner?
> 
> I'm not saying you owe her that, but you then say when YOU do one of those things "a thank you would be nice."
> 
> Well, then, why bring it up?
> 
> This is exactly what she's talking about.


I understand what you're saying. I do need to work on thanking her more, but the reason the thank you would be nice is this. Doing one or two dishes I don't mind. When I come home and the sink is full and there are some on the stove as well, that's a different story. I'm talking pots/pans, stuff like that...and none of it can go in the dishwasher. There are times I'll spend a good hour to hour and a half cleaning the kitchen up on the weekend sometimes.


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## ZDog377

eric1 said:


> Well, then articulate why you are staying with her. List the reasons right her.
> 
> The challenge: don't include "history" in it - tell us why you are staying with her TODAY.


- She is an awesome mother. I know I don't tell her enough, but I know my kids will never have to worry about her being there for them. 

- We work great together when we agree on something. It doesn't happen often but when it does, it's amazing. 

I don't know how to put any of the rest into words. 

It's hard, because after a long week of putting up with being all over the place, my favorite thing to do is hug her and put my head on her shoulder for a minute or so. Just seems to make everything right for that minute or so......


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## turnera

ZDog377 said:


> I understand what you're saying. I do need to work on thanking her more, but the reason the thank you would be nice is this. Doing one or two dishes I don't mind. When I come home and the sink is full and there are some on the stove as well, that's a different story. I'm talking pots/pans, stuff like that...and none of it can go in the dishwasher. There are times I'll spend a good hour to hour and a half cleaning the kitchen up on the weekend sometimes.


First, that's what she is stuck doing all.the.time. Second, you have kids old enough to be learning to help wash dishes; they want time with you, so make it a family thing.


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## Holdingontoit

You guys have different Love Languages. She is an Acts of Service Girl. You are a Sexual Fulfillment guy. Very common pairing. Usually leads to the clash you are experiencing, especially while kids are living at home. As others have posted, you guys need to work this out together. You both need to realize that what you need is not what your spouse needs. And that neither of you is right or wrong or better or worse than the other for needing what you need and not needing what your spouse needs. If the marriage is going to be successful, you both must agree that each of you needs to provide what the other person needs even though it seems silly or immature or boring or whatever negative aspect you feel when you consider the other person's needs.

That means you need to find ways to satisfy her need for you to provide Acts of Service. Without demanding that she give you a huge "thank you" every time. And she needs to provide you with Sexual Fulfillment. Even if she thinks doing so is "wasted" time.

Otherwise, she is going to resent your not being home and helping out much, and you are going to resent only rarely having sex. The marriage will then end or be permanently unhappy. And that is bad for the kids.

Which is a message that will upset her, but you need to make anyway. Yes, it stinks to care for kids all day every day with hubby mostly away on business. Yes, she is stressed and tired and touched out. But if she thinks she can put your needs on hold for 15 or 20 years and you will willingly be there for her and the kids, she is fooling herself. Just as you are fooling yourself if you think maximizing your income makes up for being away for home from weeks at a time. She needs to understand that regular sex with her husband is more important to her children's well being than T ball practice. And you need to realize that you aren't going to get her in the mood by reminding her that your paycheck enables her to stay home with the kids.


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## ZDog377

Holdingontoit said:


> You guys have different Love Languages. She is an Acts of Service Girl. You are a Sexual Fulfillment guy. Very common pairing. Usually leads to the clash you are experiencing, especially while kids are living at home. As others have posted, you guys need to work this out together. You both need to realize that what you need is not what your spouse needs. And that neither of you is right or wrong or better or worse than the other for needing what you need and not needing what your spouse needs. If the marriage is going to be successful, you both must agree that each of you needs to provide what the other person needs even though it seems silly or immature or boring or whatever negative aspect you feel when you consider the other person's needs.
> 
> That means you need to find ways to satisfy her need for you to provide Acts of Service. Without demanding that she give you a huge "thank you" every time. And she needs to provide you with Sexual Fulfillment. Even if she thinks doing so is "wasted" time.
> 
> Otherwise, she is going to resent your not being home and helping out much, and you are going to resent only rarely having sex. The marriage will then end or be permanently unhappy. And that is bad for the kids.
> 
> Which is a message that will upset her, but you need to make anyway. Yes, it stinks to care for kids all day every day with hubby mostly away on business. Yes, she is stressed and tired and touched out. But if she thinks she can put your needs on hold for 15 or 20 years and you will willingly be there for her and the kids, she is fooling herself. Just as you are fooling yourself if you think maximizing your income makes up for being away for home from weeks at a time. She needs to understand that regular sex with her husband is more important to her children's well being than T ball practice. And you need to realize that you aren't going to get her in the mood by reminding her that your paycheck enables her to stay home with the kids.


We read the love languages a while back, but probably need to read it again. I feel mine have stayed the same but she knows hers have changed. She knows that one of mine is physical touch but lately she acts like it is an inconvenience for her to do it. I've told her that I know it's not her favorite thing, but when I can visibly tell she is just doing it to shut me up, she might as well not do it at all. I'm not expecting a huge grin every time but when she sighs because it's not over in five minutes, that sucks. 

I'll admit, maybe when I'm doing things for her I possibly give off non-verbal comments like that. I've asked her numerous times, let's try different things. Let's write them down so we know what we have/haven't tried. There seems to be no accountability. If I promise something, I'm staying up to do it. If I fall asleep for some reason, I'm doing it first thing the next morning.


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## farsidejunky

If you keep doing what you are doing, you will keep getting what you are getting.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit

Here is what is unreasonable on your part: expecting her to be enthusiastic. Most likely most of the time she won't be. She is offering you something very intimate that she doesn't want for herself as a sign of her love for you. If that isn't enough for you (and no, it isn't enough for me - which is why we stopped having sex), that is on you. But if you stop having sex because she isn't enthusiastic, that is on you and not on her.

Here is where she is being unreasonable: scheduling herself to the point that she is too tired and too touched out to have anything left to give you. She needs to cut back on the kids' activities until she DOES have some energy for you. Like I said, she is crazy to think that T ball practice helps the kids more than keeping Dad happy to remain married to Mom.

She wishes you were enthusiastic about devoting 100% of your time and energy to the kids (like she does) even if she almost never has sex with you. You wish she was enthusiastic about having sex with you even if that means cutting back on the kids' activities. Unfortunately, neither of you actually feels the way your spouse wishes you felt. I hope you can work together to get passed this difference in views. it would be a blessing your your children.


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## ZDog377

Holdingontoit said:


> Here is what is unreasonable on your part: expecting her to be enthusiastic. Most likely most of the time she won't be. She is offering you something very intimate that she doesn't want for herself as a sign of her love for you. If that isn't enough for you (and no, it isn't enough for me - which is why we stopped having sex), that is on you. But if you stop having sex because she isn't enthusiastic, that is on you and not on her.
> 
> Here is where she is being unreasonable: scheduling herself to the point that she is too tired and too touched out to have anything left to give you. She needs to cut back on the kids' activities until she DOES have some energy for you. Like I said, she is crazy to think that T ball practice helps the kids more than keeping Dad happy to remain married to Mom.
> 
> She wishes you were enthusiastic about devoting 100% of your time and energy to the kids (like she does) even if she almost never has sex with you. You wish she was enthusiastic about having sex with you even if that means cutting back on the kids' activities. Unfortunately, neither of you actually feels the way your spouse wishes you felt. I hope you can work together to get passed this difference in views. it would be a blessing your your children.


Just as an example.....I have off next week because I was over seas. Attached is my schedule for the week I'm off. Mind you my father in law will be at the house too.....


----------



## Blossom Leigh

How would you like your calendar to be?


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> How would you like your calendar to be?


Definitely less busy than this. She always has to say she's not as school as much as some parents. I respond with "just because other people do it, you have to as well?" She signed us up to be chaperons for the school field trip for our oldest. It would be a good way to spend time together she said. The volunteering after/during baseball games isn't bad, I'm starting to consider paying high school kids $10 to do it instead so I can watch the game.


----------



## farsidejunky

Call the school, remove yourself as a chaperone, then inform her you've done so. Tell her that you discussed how you wanted to be less busy on your off weeks, and now you are making sure that happens.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## lifeistooshort

MEM11363 said:


> Zdog,
> 
> Farsidejunky is NOT suggesting that you leave the marriage, or even threaten to do so.
> 
> What he IS suggesting is that you strip the marriage down to its foundations - and in so doing - discover whether you are on top of a rock solid slab, or a cracked, sinking mess.
> 
> *Do that by deactivating the 'platinum service' plan you are currently providing.* When you do that - you will quickly discover whether your wife loves YOU, or if she is simply remaining married because she loves what you DO for her.
> 
> This is not about adding negative emotional energy into the marriage.
> 
> Merely subtracting the endless stream of helpful, loving, approving, supportive behaviors you engaged in.


This really doesn't sit well with me, though I understand where it's coming from. There's a veiled implication here that he's doing her a big fat favor, when in fact they are doing each other favors. 

Though maybe not what the other is looking for.

He has a job and pays bills; I get it. I have a job and pay bills too just like a lot of us. But he also gets to run around with few home front responsibilities with a job he likes and frankly if she was banging him when he got home he wouldn't be at all bothered by being away from his family that much. This whole thread started because she was too "touched out" to have sex with him.


So she holds down the home front and allows him to have kids and a family while avoiding any of the actual responsibility of one as long as he pays bills.

Most working guys don't get that, even the ones with stay at homes.

So what "platinum service" is he providing? Why should he be the one to decide what kind of cable package they have? Maybe this kind of attitude is why she wants her own money. 

I'm not implying he's a bad guy or that he has it easy, for sure travelling all the time is tough. But he seems reluctant to give it up so we can surmise that it can't be that bad for him.

She's not his employee, she's his wife. He doesn't have to strip anything down to see that his marriage isn't rock solid, that'a a natural consequence of his not being home. You can't just swoop in and out like that and expect to be part of the family. I'm not suggesting his wife has no part in this and there's nothing she could be doing differently, but if he in fact exists solely to pay bills it's because that's the role he's carved out for himself.

And even if he leaves or she dumps him then what? He's going to be in it for a ton of alimony and child support and won't get any kind of custody because he's gone all the time, so really he has much more to lose from this marriage ending then she does. If you look at from a practical perspective what is she going to lose by him leaving her?

And he might get a new girlfriend who he'll also never see because he's gone all the time. And he'll have even less money for her after he pays for his ex wife and kids. In the end he'll still have to get a job that keeps him home most of the time but his marriage and family will be wrecked and he'll be that much worse off financially.

So why not suck it up and take the financial hit right now, even if it means her going back to work part time? It's going to be a lot cheaper for him than divorce.


----------



## MEM2020

Life,
Maybe this just looks different to me - having been the one travelling so M2 could stay home full time not have to worry about money. 

No way would I have been ok coming home to a kitchen sink full of dirty pots pans and dishes because my W has over committed volunteering at school. 

Very telling that her comments about him taking a non travel job immediately centered around signing him up to coach kids teams. 

Doesn't sound like she's all that focused on spending more time with him. 

Travelling does NOT typically cause a lack of attraction. Frankly - most of the software consultants who worked for me said quite the opposite was true. 

The biggest issue seems to me - is that she seems uninterested in working towards a mutually beneficial outcome. 

And I would guess that's, like most sexually impaired marriages - there's a whole lot of deceit going on. Some his. Some hers. 

I can only speak to what's worked for me - in terms of rebalancing a marriage. To be fair though - our issues weren't about sex. 





lifeistooshort said:


> This really doesn't sit well with me, though I understand where it's coming from. There's a veiled implication here that he's doing her a big fat favor, when in fact they are doing each other favors.
> 
> Though maybe not what the other is looking for.
> 
> He has a job and pays bills; I get it. I have a job and pay bills too just like a lot of us. But he also gets to run around with few home front responsibilities with a job he likes and frankly if she was banging him when he got home he wouldn't be at all bothered by being away from his family that much. This whole thread started because she was too "touched out" to have sex with him.
> 
> 
> So she holds down the home front and allows him to have kids and a family while avoiding any of the actual responsibility of one as long as he pays bills.
> 
> Most working guys don't get that, even the ones with stay at homes.
> 
> So what "platinum service" is he providing? Why should he be the one to decide what kind of cable package they have? Maybe this kind of attitude is why she wants her own money.
> 
> I'm not implying he's a bad guy or that he has it easy, for sure travelling all the time is tough. But he seems reluctant to give it up so we can surmise that it can't be that bad for him.
> 
> She's not his employee, she's his wife. He doesn't have to strip anything down to see that his marriage isn't rock solid, that'a a natural consequence of his not being home. You can't just swoop in and out like that and expect to be part of the family. I'm not suggesting his wife has no part in this and there's nothing she could be doing differently, but if he in fact exists solely to pay bills it's because that's the role he's carved out for himself.
> 
> And even if he leaves or she dumps him then what? He's going to be in it for a ton of alimony and child support and won't get any kind of custody because he's gone all the time, so really he has much more to lose from this marriage ending then she does. If you look at from a practical perspective what is she going to lose by him leaving her?
> 
> And he might get a new girlfriend who he'll also never see because he's gone all the time. And he'll have even less money for her after he pays for his ex wife and kids. In the end he'll still have to get a job that keeps him home most of the time but his marriage and family will be wrecked and he'll be that much worse off financially.
> 
> So why not suck it up and take the financial hit right now, even if it means her going back to work part time? It's going to be a lot cheaper for him than divorce.


----------



## lifeistooshort

MEM11363 said:


> Life,
> Maybe this just looks different to me - having been the one travelling so M2 could stay home full time not have to worry about money.
> 
> No way would I have been ok coming home to a kitchen sink full of dirty pots pans and dishes because my W has over committed volunteering at school.
> 
> Very telling that her comments about him taking a non travel job immediately centered around signing him up to coach kids teams.
> 
> Doesn't sound like she's all that focused on spending more time with him.
> 
> Travelling does NOT typically cause a lack of attraction. Frankly - most of the software consultants who worked for me said quite the opposite was true.
> 
> The biggest issue seems to me - is that she seems uninterested in working towards a mutually beneficial outcome.
> 
> And I would guess that's, like most sexually impaired marriages - there's a whole lot of deceit going on. Some his. Some hers.
> 
> I can only speak to what's worked for me - in terms of rebalancing a marriage. To be fair though - our issues weren't about sex.


I understand were you're coming from. It could be that she has a different view of what family life is supposed to look like than he does. ....i know moms who practically live at the school but even when I was home I was never the room mom type.

But maybe to her him participating in all of this stuff represents the family dong stuff together. I think that right now she doesn't view him as a partner but rather a guy who pays bills, which as I pointend out is a role he's cast himself into. 

Of course she doesn't want sex, she's detached from him. I just can't think of how this is going to be repaired with him travelling. He can threaten, destabilize, cut off cable, whatever, but it won't solve the issue.

Some people can handle this type of arrangement but clearly she can't. 

As for the dishes, tbh I have mixed feelings about this. I mean, she has a 1 year old along with other kids and she's not his employee. I get that a reasonable amount of chores will fall to her, as they should, but I think he doesn't have a good grasp of what she deals with. She does seem overinvested in the activities, but there could be a number of reasons for that including a need to just get out and real with other adults. 

Every real solution to their issues must start with him being around more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

ZDog377 said:


> Definitely less busy than this.


So do something about it.

Be the man in the home.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

She is WAY too distracted.

I see priority issues.


----------



## MEM2020

Z,

It is important to ensure - you actually are doing your bit for God and country - before going into subtraction mode. 

I made some assumptions - let's check those first before I make any more suggestions.

1. What's your connectivity routine during the week while away? 
2. How often do you speak on the phone, who initiates the calls and how long are they?
3. How much off the calls are: 
- about you
- about her
- about the kids
4. Does your wife crave your company? Your non sexual touch?

On that last bit - this could be simple or complicated. Turns out that touch has directionality - same way conversations do. If all I do, is talk about me, likely M2 will feel bad. The more I shift the conversation to her, the more she feels like she matters. 

Thing is - touch - same thing is true. If you touch your wife in a way that's 'all about her' - she will come to associate that touch with feeling good. She will melt into you. That also means having some body language fluency - tells you when she's feeling crowded, needs some space. 

Part of the reason M2 never once told me she was touched out, was because unlike the kids who were constantly asking her: got milk?

My touch was a give. It was unidirectional. No groping. No grinding. Not even a subtle attempt to 'get' sex. 

Very helpful. 

We did have a couple conversations when the kids were little related to over committing and priorities. Told her I wasn't going to be pushed 'off the schedule'. 

Thing is - a paycheck just isn't that hard to replace. But a partner who's company and touch you crave - that my man is a whole different world. 

I seriously doubt that taking a pay cut that requires her to work a third shift - will help your sex life. 

What say you?






ZDog377 said:


> Definitely less busy than this. She always has to say she's not as school as much as some parents. I respond with "just because other people do it, you have to as well?" She signed us up to be chaperons for the school field trip for our oldest. It would be a good way to spend time together she said. The volunteering after/during baseball games isn't bad, I'm starting to consider paying high school kids $10 to do it instead so I can watch the game.


----------



## ZDog377

MEM11363 said:


> Z,
> 
> It is important to ensure - you actually are doing your bit for God and country - before going into subtraction mode.
> 
> I made some assumptions - let's check those first before I make any more suggestions.
> 
> 1. What's your connectivity routine during the week while away?
> 2. How often do you speak on the phone, who initiates the calls and how long are they?
> 3. How much off the calls are:
> - about you
> - about her
> - about the kids
> 4. Does your wife crave your company? Your non sexual touch?
> 
> On that last bit - this could be simple or complicated. Turns out that touch has directionality - same way conversations do. If all I do, is talk about me, likely M2 will feel bad. The more I shift the conversation to her, the more she feels like she matters.
> 
> Thing is - touch - same thing is true. If you touch your wife in a way that's 'all about her' - she will come to associate that touch with feeling good. She will melt into you. That also means having some body language fluency - tells you when she's feeling crowded, needs some space.
> 
> Part of the reason M2 never once told me she was touched out, was because unlike the kids who were constantly asking her: got milk?
> 
> My touch was a give. It was unidirectional. No groping. No grinding. Not even a subtle attempt to 'get' sex.
> 
> Very helpful.
> 
> We did have a couple conversations when the kids were little related to over committing and priorities. Told her I wasn't going to be pushed 'off the schedule'.
> 
> Thing is - a paycheck just isn't that hard to replace. But a partner who's company and touch you crave - that my man is a whole different world.
> 
> I seriously doubt that taking a pay cut that requires her to work a third shift - will help your sex life.
> 
> What say you?


Here are the answers to the questions:

1 - We talk a minimum of three times a day. Depends on if I'm in the same time zone or not and what time I have to be in at work. Some of the jobs we start at 7 so sometimes she isn't awake yet. We sometimes talk through FB, but that's hit or miss. Usually she says she is too busy to chat. 

2 - Usually it is me initiating the phone calls. Just because she doesn't know when I'm driving in, taking lunch, or done for the day. Sometimes they are 15-20 minutes, other times they are 5. Once again, just depends on schedules. 

3 - Conversations are usually about the kids, more likely this time of year due to baseball season. She will ask the usual "how was your day?" and I will usually ask the same. 

4 - I feel she craves touch when it is "convenient" for her. If she is working on something and wants to get done, I'll get a quick hug and then that's it. She wants to lay close in bed at night, but it lasts for about five minutes because she is all over the place or just passes out. I can be having a conversation with her and all of a sudden............no response, just snoring. She will reach for my hand to hold it in the car though.


----------



## ZDog377

lifeistooshort said:


> I understand were you're coming from. It could be that she has a different view of what family life is supposed to look like than he does. ....i know moms who practically live at the school but even when I was home I was never the room mom type.
> 
> But maybe to her him participating in all of this stuff represents the family dong stuff together. I think that right now she doesn't view him as a partner but rather a guy who pays bills, which as I pointend out is a role he's cast himself into.
> 
> Of course she doesn't want sex, she's detached from him. I just can't think of how this is going to be repaired with him travelling. He can threaten, destabilize, cut off cable, whatever, but it won't solve the issue.
> 
> Some people can handle this type of arrangement but clearly she can't.
> 
> As for the dishes, tbh I have mixed feelings about this. I mean, she has a 1 year old along with other kids and she's not his employee. I get that a reasonable amount of chores will fall to her, as they should, but I think he doesn't have a good grasp of what she deals with. She does seem overinvested in the activities, but there could be a number of reasons for that including a need to just get out and real with other adults.
> 
> Every real solution to their issues must start with him being around more.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here is a point I feel I should make. I've told her multiple times, I understand she wants to spend family time together. I've been trying to do as much of my paperwork as I can on the road so I don't have any to do at home. When I do have some to do at home, I try and wait until the kids are in bed. 

Here is where I believe the problem lies: she considers "family time" as her and I spending time together as well. I tried explaining to her that I consider "1 on 1" time as us spending time together. Family time is fine, but shouldn't take away from "1 on 1" time. 

How we were raised also plays into this. Her parents were divorced and her dad would give her pretty much anything she wanted. He balanced his schedule around her school functions and would pretty much be there any time something was going on. Both my parents worked, however my dad worked shift work. He made more than my mom and could rarely turn down over time. I can count on one hand the number of times I saw my dad call off and one of them was due to a work injury. Looking back on it now, I realize that a lot of the things I had as a kid were due to my dad busting his behind. 

After our second child was born, I got frustrated with always coming home to a dirty house. I'm not talking not being swept or dusted, I'm talking toys everywhere, things like that. I voiced my opinion and after a couple weeks realized I was out of line. I changed my attitude and told her I understand if things need swept or wiped off but stuff laying everywhere needs to stop. There are times I will leave on a Monday even now and when I get back on Thursday/Friday a dirty pan will still be in the sink. That is the stuff that drives me nuts, so I just do it myself. 

She's VP of the PTO now and new elections are coming up. I've explained that I feel she's too involved, but it is something she enjoys and it gets her out of the house. She says she wants to run for President now and says that she will have less to do at home (fundraiser organizing and stuff) but it will require her to be at the school more. 

I don't mind the helping coach to an extent. I helped coach a team when our oldest was starting out and it wasn't bad. Back then it wasn't bad because I was helping. If I had something going on that night or was working, there were three other guys to help. Even at home now our oldest is constantly wanting somebody to do something with him. I'll go outside and play catch. After about five minutes he wants to work on something else, ground balls, things like that. Then he starts goofing around, sliding, diving, things like that. By now I say that we need to go inside and do something else. He starts complaining to her "he never does anything with me, we were only out there for a half hour". Whenever I say to him "hey, let's go build this thing for our bows so we can use it when we practice in the back yard", he helps for maybe five minutes then has to "use the bathroom". A half hour later I come upstairs and he's watching TV on the couch. The three year old will help me for hours on end.....

As far as her wanting her own money....she says she feels she shouldn't have to ask me for money. The thing is, she doesn't! All I ask her to do is let me know if she takes some or uses the card. I've shot down some insane ideas, but she says "I've been losing weight, I need some new clothes". No problem, she likes to shop at a slightly more expensive store. She will watch and wait for sales so she can get more. She wants to stop and get something at Starbucks, no big deal. She sees a good deal on something while grocery shopping, go ahead and get it. That's what frustrates me about the whole job situation. I've also told her that I felt lied to about it. Meaning this....I thought it was something she could do every now and then when she wanted extra cash for vacation or something. Not something that required a consistent amount of hours a week, extra training, or working booths at a fair.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

She's feeding her ego at PTO at the expense of her family.


----------



## Holdingontoit

It is the typical power struggle. She wants things her way. If he isn't willing to leave, she owns him.


----------



## jld

To me she just seems like a devoted mother investing time and energy the way she thinks best in children that at one time it did not seem they would be lucky enough to have. She stayed with him even though he was thought to be the cause of their infertility. To me that sounds very sacrificial on her part.


----------



## Holdingontoit

As with many "devoted" mothers, the problem is they leave out one crucial element. Keeping their husband. If Dad gets so frustrated and resentful over Mom devoting 100% of her time and energy to the kids that he leaves, all her efforts on behalf of the kids go down the tubes. Dad walking out outweighs all the benefits of T ball practice and volunteering at the PTO and driving the kids from one activity to the next. All well and good to knock yourself out adding "enrichment" and "parental involvement" to the kids' lives if Dad is happy with that arrangement. But when Dad walks out the door, all that enrichment goes down the tubes. So if the Mom really cares about the kids, as opposed to feeding her own ego about what a Super Mom she is, then she needs to allocate some of her time and energy to keeping Dad happy. Just as Dad needs to allocate some of his time and energy to keeping Mom happy. Because keeping your spouse happy enough to stay married to you IS what is best for the kids. Exhausting yourself to the point where you have nothing left for your spouse is NOT what is best for the kids.


----------



## john117

That's where the self preservation neurons come into play....


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Holdingontoit said:


> As with many "devoted" mothers, the problem is they leave out one crucial element. Keeping their husband. If Dad gets so frustrated and resentful over Mom devoting 100% of her time and energy to the kids that he leaves, all her efforts on behalf of the kids go down the tubes. Dad walking out outweighs all the benefits of T ball practice and volunteering at the PTO and driving the kids from one activity to the next. All well and good to knock yourself out adding "enrichment" and "parental involvement" to the kids' lives if Dad is happy with that arrangement. But when Dad walks out the door, all that enrichment goes down the tubes. So if the Mom really cares about the kids, as opposed to feeding her own ego about what a Super Mom she is, then she needs to allocate some of her time and energy to keeping Dad happy. Just as Dad needs to allocate some of his time and energy to keeping Mom happy. Because keeping your spouse happy enough to stay married to you IS what is best for the kids. Exhausting yourself to the point where you have nothing left for your spouse is NOT what is best for the kids.


Totally agree.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I also see the need for you to return back home Zdog... the rearing of your kids is out of balance and you are seeing when you get home but aren't home long enough to balance out her failures. Your kids need you. Take the pay cut.


----------



## jld

Holdingontoit said:


> As with many "devoted" mothers, the problem is they leave out one crucial element. Keeping their husband. If Dad gets so frustrated and resentful over Mom devoting 100% of her time and energy to the kids that he leaves, all her efforts on behalf of the kids go down the tubes. Dad walking out outweighs all the benefits of T ball practice and volunteering at the PTO and driving the kids from one activity to the next. All well and good to knock yourself out adding "enrichment" and "parental involvement" to the kids' lives if Dad is happy with that arrangement. But when Dad walks out the door, all that enrichment goes down the tubes. So if the Mom really cares about the kids, as opposed to feeding her own ego about what a Super Mom she is, then she needs to allocate some of her time and energy to keeping Dad happy. Just as Dad needs to allocate some of his time and energy to keeping Mom happy. Because keeping your spouse happy enough to stay married to you IS what is best for the kids. Exhausting yourself to the point where you have nothing left for your spouse is NOT what is best for the kids.


Seems to me she has the solo parenting down pat. Lots of practice already. And Grandpa seems able and willing to help, too.

I do not see her feeding her ego. I do see him wanting his fed. I see her with a heart for her kids. Again, the kids they both thought they would not have. No wonder they get the bulk of her energy.

And life is exactly right when she says that Z would pay alimony and child support and maybe see the kids every other weekend. 

Z, lots of uncertainty for you if she decides you are too much trouble . . . But kind-hearted woman that she is, I don't think she will do that.


----------



## MEM2020

Yes

Perfect example of this is her signing both of them up for a volunteer activity without even asking him. 

And for clarity, she doesn't have to ask him for the stuff she chooses to do. But signing him up without askng first - yet another example of her being self focused. 





Holdingontoit said:


> As with many "devoted" mothers, the problem is they leave out one crucial element. Keeping their husband. If Dad gets so frustrated and resentful over Mom devoting 100% of her time and energy to the kids that he leaves, all her efforts on behalf of the kids go down the tubes. Dad walking out outweighs all the benefits of T ball practice and volunteering at the PTO and driving the kids from one activity to the next. All well and good to knock yourself out adding "enrichment" and "parental involvement" to the kids' lives if Dad is happy with that arrangement. But when Dad walks out the door, all that enrichment goes down the tubes. So if the Mom really cares about the kids, as opposed to feeding her own ego about what a Super Mom she is, then she needs to allocate some of her time and energy to keeping Dad happy. Just as Dad needs to allocate some of his time and energy to keeping Mom happy. Because keeping your spouse happy enough to stay married to you IS what is best for the kids. Exhausting yourself to the point where you have nothing left for your spouse is NOT what is best for the kids.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

MEM11363 said:


> Yes
> 
> Perfect example of this is her signing both of them up for a volunteer activity without even asking him.
> 
> And for clarity, she doesn't have to ask him for the stuff she chooses to do. But signing him up without askng first - yet another example of her being self focused.


and disrespectful.


----------



## MEM2020

Zdog,

Interesting. 

Never called M2 during the day when I was traveling. She was usually busy doing stuff - focused on the kids as you'd expect. 

I called once a day at night after the kids had been fed and were settled if not asleep. 

Separate from work, what have you done to show her she's important to you in the last month? And what has she done for you?






ZDog377 said:


> Here are the answers to the questions:
> 
> 1 - We talk a minimum of three times a day. Depends on if I'm in the same time zone or not and what time I have to be in at work. Some of the jobs we start at 7 so sometimes she isn't awake yet. We sometimes talk through FB, but that's hit or miss. Usually she says she is too busy to chat.
> 
> 2 - Usually it is me initiating the phone calls. Just because she doesn't know when I'm driving in, taking lunch, or done for the day. Sometimes they are 15-20 minutes, other times they are 5. Once again, just depends on schedules.
> 
> 3 - Conversations are usually about the kids, more likely this time of year due to baseball season. She will ask the usual "how was your day?" and I will usually ask the same.
> 
> 4 - I feel she craves touch when it is "convenient" for her. If she is working on something and wants to get done, I'll get a quick hug and then that's it. She wants to lay close in bed at night, but it lasts for about five minutes because she is all over the place or just passes out. I can be having a conversation with her and all of a sudden............no response, just snoring. She will reach for my hand to hold it in the car though.


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> Seems to me she has the solo parenting down pat. Lots of practice already. And Grandpa seems able and willing to help, too.
> 
> I do not see her feeding her ego. I do see him wanting his fed. I see her with a heart for her kids. Again, the kids they both thought they would not have. No wonder they get the bulk of her energy.
> 
> And life is exactly right when she says that Z would pay alimony and child support and maybe see the kids every other weekend.
> 
> Z, lots of uncertainty for you if she decides you are too much trouble . . . But kind-hearted woman that she is, I don't think she will do that.


Grandpa lives three hours away and comes down maybe once a month. We only allow him to be with the oldest by himself or the middle son and older one if they are together. He's on oxygen 24/7 and has had a stroke. He's entertainment for the kids, but I wouldn't feel comfortable with him watching the kids if we went away for a weekend. 

I'm not asking to have my ego fed. I've told her multiple times that I know what she does at home isn't easy. That's why I do all the things I can when I'm home. Rarely do I get any validation from her though. There are days I might get done early because I'm waiting for a part or something like that. However, there are plenty of days I'm up on a roof in freezing cold or blazing heat doing construction type work. Each job is hard in different ways. 

As far as her volunteer activities go, I've told her I don't mind them. It bugs me because she busts her behind doing things at the school and when it comes time for extra help for a party, all you hear are crickets. Then next year she wants to run for President so she won't do much at home, but will need to be at the school more. I've also said I don't mind it but when I've planned something and she says "hey, I need to be at the school this afternoon for a few hours" the morning of, it sucks. 

I feel I need to do more to show her she is appreciated. I'm trying to get better on sending little emails or getting cards or that kind of stuff. Not saying she hasn't, but I can't think of what she has done to show me I'm important in the last month.


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> Grandpa lives three hours away and comes down maybe once a month. We only allow him to be with the oldest by himself or the middle son and older one if they are together. He's on oxygen 24/7 and has had a stroke. He's entertainment for the kids, but I wouldn't feel comfortable with him watching the kids if we went away for a weekend.
> 
> I'm not asking to have my ego fed. I've told her multiple times that I know what she does at home isn't easy. That's why I do all the things I can when I'm home. Rarely do I get any validation from her though. There are days I might get done early because I'm waiting for a part or something like that. However, there are plenty of days I'm up on a roof in freezing cold or blazing heat doing construction type work. Each job is hard in different ways.
> 
> As far as her volunteer activities go, I've told her I don't mind them. It bugs me because she busts her behind doing things at the school and when it comes time for extra help for a party, all you hear are crickets. Then next year she wants to run for President so she won't do much at home, but will need to be at the school more. I've also said I don't mind it but when I've planned something and she says "hey, I need to be at the school this afternoon for a few hours" the morning of, it sucks.
> 
> I feel I need to do more to show her she is appreciated. I'm trying to get better on sending little emails or getting cards or that kind of stuff. Not saying she hasn't, but I can't think of what she has done to show me I'm important in the last month.


If you want enthusiasm for sex, and not just access, and you feel entitled to it rather than taking the responsibility for inspiring it, then I think that is needing ego validation. 

Every sahm needs something to feed her, to give her energy and purpose. The kids certainly do that to an extent, but it is really easy to just get all used up by kids and their needs. I think the PTO is feeding her. I wish you could be doing it.

If I were you, I would indeed show her appreciation. She is a great mom. I would also share my heart with her on wanting to nurture the relationship, but without giving in to self pity. That is hard, but self pity, and anyone who feeds it, is not doing you any favors. 

The risk your wife takes is that you get fed up and find a girlfriend. But your wife may just be LD, too, and not care. Hard to know, since the kids are so young and demanding. Such an energy-sucking time for a sahm.

But if she decides to leave you, you will lose a lot that you now take for granted. Her job is going to get easier as the kids grow up; mine certainly has. And she will be able to get a full time job, too. That combined with alimony and child support should take care of the family's needs.

You, otoh, will be alone, or at least without your family. That looks pretty lonely to me.

Just food for thought, Z. A forum should offer you a variety of views. Most relationship problems are not one dimensional.


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> If you want enthusiasm for sex, and not just access, and you feel entitled to it rather than taking the responsibility for inspiring it, then I think that is needing ego validation.
> 
> Every sahm needs something to feed her, to give her energy and purpose. The kids certainly do that to an extent, but it is really easy to just get all used up by kids and their needs. I think the PTO is feeding her. I wish you could be doing it.
> 
> If I were you, I would indeed show her appreciation. She is a great mom. I would also share my heart with her on wanting to nurture the relationship, but without giving in to self pity. That is hard, but self pity, and anyone who feeds it, is not doing you any favors.
> 
> The risk your wife takes is that you get fed up and find a girlfriend. But your wife may just be LD, too, and not care. Hard to know, since the kids are so young and demanding. Such an energy-sucking time for a sahm.
> 
> But if she decides to leave you, you will lose a lot that you now take for granted. Her job is going to get easier as the kids grow up; mine certainly has. And she will be able to get a full time job, too. That combined with alimony and child support should take care of the family's needs.
> 
> You, otoh, will be alone, or at least without your family. That looks pretty lonely to me.
> 
> Just food for thought, Z. A forum should offer you a variety of views. Most relationship problems are not one dimensional.


I'm not saying she has to be over the top enthusiastic. But sighing in the middle of it because it's not over as quick as she wants is the complete other end I feel. Believe me, I try and show her appreciation. I guess I don't show it enough. When we both go to bed at the same time, I always give her a quick massage even if it is five minutes. At least once a weekend I try and make it a longer one (15-20 mins) with some nice music. I've also told her that I want things to be better between us. I've said that since things started going downhill. I'm tired of the arguing all the time and feeling like I don't do enough.

The hard part is if I stop trying. I could almost guarantee that if I got a job at home and she didn't have to go work third shift, she would still find some other reason. If I go all out and try everything and we still decide to divorce, I get the short end of the stick with having to pay alimony and child support.


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I'm not saying she has to be over the top enthusiastic. But sighing in the middle of it because it's not over as quick as she wants is the complete other end I feel. Believe me, I try and show her appreciation. I guess I don't show it enough. When we both go to bed at the same time, I always give her a quick massage even if it is five minutes. At least once a weekend I try and make it a longer one (15-20 mins) with some nice music. I've also told her that I want things to be better between us. I've said that since things started going downhill. I'm tired of the arguing all the time and feeling like I don't do enough.


Those massages and hugs sound great. Give yourself credit for those deposits that you are making in her emotional bank account, Z. They may be the reason things are not worse than they are.

Try to ignore the sighing. Life is so much easier when we do not take everything personally. Saying something like, "Sorry to be so long. I know you are busy," said in a genuinely caring way might spark some sensitivity in her.

To curtail arguing, learn about and practice Active Listening.

Just saw what you added. I agree, and I would not give up the job. It is the only thing I disagree with my friend life on. And she is usually right, so you may just want to ignore me on that. 

My desire for my husband is because he nurtures me without needing nurturing himself. I just cannot resist that kind of strength. I am powerless in the face of it, tbh.


----------



## Holdingontoit

I totally agree that Z is at risk financially if she divorces him. Tough place to be. BTDT. Stayed so as not to be financially dismembered. For me, that and the impact on the kids was enough reason to stay. Wouldn't think less of Z if he made the same choice. If he stays from fear of divorce, his best option is to implement BadSanta's techniques for inspiring willingness. I do think travelling less would help, IF Z2 actually wants more time, closeness and connection with Z. But operating from fear of financial harm is yet another obstacle to having the confidence to inspire a responsive libido. 

I would rather see Z operate from a position of strength, where he figures he could earn back the alimony by getting raises after divorce.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Holdingontoit said:


> I totally agree that Z is at risk financially if she divorces him. Tough place to be. BTDT. Stayed so as not to be financially dismembered. For me, that and the impact on the kids was enough reason to stay. Wouldn't think less of Z if he made the same choice. If he stays from fear of divorce, his best option is to implement BadSanta's techniques for inspiring willingness. I do think travelling less would help, IF Z2 actually wants more time, closeness and connection with Z. But operating from fear of financial harm is yet another obstacle to having the confidence to inspire a responsive libido.
> 
> I would rather see Z operate from a position of strength, where he figures he could earn back the alimony by getting raises after divorce.


 @badsanta, have you seen this thread?

I think he needs to stay close to his kids, the closer the better.

Forget her for a while.... she doesn't deserve his attention right now.

I cannot stand it when a woman creates her own problems and then blames the man for it. Just totally ticks me off.


----------



## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> The hard part is if I stop trying. I could almost guarantee that if I got a job at home and she didn't have to go work third shift, she would still find some other reason. If I go all out and try everything and we still decide to divorce, I get the short end of the stick with having to pay alimony and child support.


I think you're right. After reading more of this, I don't think the main problem is your traveling. I think the main problem is your wife's tendency to over extend herself outside the home. She is not doing the basic things to keep a home and family. She's got her priorities mixed up severely.

Have you had a vasectomy? 

If you get divorced, I think your life will be worse than it is now.


----------



## anonmd

jld said:


> Those massages and hugs sound great. Give yourself credit for those deposits that you are making in her emotional bank account, Z. They may be the reason things are not worse than they are.
> 
> *Try to ignore the sighing. Life is so much easier when we do not take everything personally. Saying something like, "Sorry to be so long. I know you are busy," said in a genuinely caring way might spark some sensitivity in her.*
> 
> To curtail arguing, learn about and practice Active Listening.
> 
> Just saw what you added. I agree, and I would not give up the job. It is the only thing I disagree with my friend life on. And she is usually right, so you may just want to ignore me on that.
> 
> My desire for my husband is because he nurtures me without needing nurturing himself. I just cannot resist that kind of strength. I am powerless in the face of it, tbh.


That's a crock of crap. The next time that happens pull out immediately and leave the room. DON'T apologize. DON'T grovel. If she asks what's wrong tell her to let you know when she is ready to be a wife.


----------



## MEM2020

Z,

I like this post a LOT. 

Sighing in the middle - big message. 

You want some help with that, say the word. Just understand - that I give Z2 (your wife) props for honest communication on this front. 





ZDog377 said:


> I'm not saying she has to be over the top enthusiastic. But sighing in the middle of it because it's not over as quick as she wants is the complete other end I feel. Believe me, I try and show her appreciation. I guess I don't show it enough. When we both go to bed at the same time, I always give her a quick massage even if it is five minutes. At least once a weekend I try and make it a longer one (15-20 mins) with some nice music. I've also told her that I want things to be better between us. I've said that since things started going downhill. I'm tired of the arguing all the time and feeling like I don't do enough.
> 
> The hard part is if I stop trying. I could almost guarantee that if I got a job at home and she didn't have to go work third shift, she would still find some other reason. If I go all out and try everything and we still decide to divorce, I get the short end of the stick with having to pay alimony and child support.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I think sighing in the middle is freakin rude. She can use words to express what she is unhappy about. She's an adult.


----------



## ZDog377

MEM11363 said:


> Z,
> 
> I like this post a LOT.
> 
> Sighing in the middle - big message.
> 
> You want some help with that, say the word. Just understand - that I give Z2 (your wife) props for honest communication on this front.


I'm willing to listen............


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

MEM11363 said:


> Just understand - that I give Z2 (your wife) props for honest communication on this front.


Dishonest is the word I would use. Passive aggressive is NEVER honest communication. Sighing has so many meanings, in the context of his life, it is a cop out. 
Is she frustrated? 
Is she bored?
Is she angry?
Is she hurting?
Is she being flippant?
Is she willfully ignoring?
Is she trying to talk in a language he understands?
Is she hating him?
Is she disliking the act?

It is a message, but there is nothing honest about how it was communicated.

I had to shut my wife down on this front. Tell me how you feel, eye rolling and signing are uncalled for to have open communication. I am not playing the "guess why I am feeling this way or you (one of us) sleep on the couch" crap some spouses entertain.


----------



## MEM2020

No

No no no

Sorry but....
Here's how this works IRL. 
- I deliver a message. 
- You choose to focus on the delivery style - and in so doing - dismiss the content. In other words, you use the delivery style as an excuse for dismissing the content. That is a no go in my world. 

Sighing like that - is a big message. Course it hurts. Sorry Z - I'm not a dummy - would hurt me too. Doesn't change the fact - it's a big deal. 

Filters off (folks with weak stomachs turn back here):

There is no neutral sex. It's either good or bad. If it's not good - that means it's bad. This - hurry up message - is important.

Ignore it at your peril. 






phillybeffandswiss said:


> Dishonest is the word I would use. Passive aggressive is NEVER honest communication. Sighing has so many meanings, in the context of his life, it is a cop out.
> Is she frustrated?
> Is she bored?
> Is she angry?
> Is she hurting?
> Is she being flippant?
> Is she willfully ignoring?
> Is she trying to talk in a language he understands?
> Is she hating him?
> Is she disliking the act?
> 
> It is a message, but there is nothing honest about how it was communicated.
> 
> I had to shut my wife down on this front. Tell me how you feel, eye rolling and signing are uncalled for to have open communication. I am not playing the "guess why I am feeling this way or you (one of us) sleep on the couch" crap some spouses entertain.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



jld said:


> Try to ignore the sighing. Life is so much easier when we do not take everything personally. Saying something like, "Sorry to be so long. I know you are busy," said in a genuinely caring way might spark some sensitivity...


During sex?

Absolutely not.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

MEM11363 said:


> That is a no go in my world.


 Right in your world Thanks. So, yes yes yes yes yes what I wrote ALSO works "IRL." Let's make sure you understand my post, as the last little bit makes no sense to me in context to what I worte.


> Sighing like that - is a big message. Course it hurts. Sorry Z - I'm not a dummy - would hurt me too. Doesn't change the fact - it's a big deal.


This sounds like you think I am addressing Z and I am not. I am saying that sigh can mean ANYTHING coming from his wife. All he knows is she was irritated about something, but without "honest communication" he had to guess. I didn't say it wasn't a big message, I disagreed it was "honest communication on this front." Heck, my post agrees it is a message. I just didn't add "big.". I said it is dishonest and I disagree with your assertion she deserves some type of credit for her passive aggressive rudeness and game playing.

You know, in my world.


----------



## jld

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



farsidejunky said:


> During sex?
> 
> Absolutely not.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Why not?


----------



## jld

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Right in your world Thanks. So, yes yes yes yes yes what I wrote ALSO works "IRL." Let's make sure you understand my post, as the last little bit makes no sense to me in context to what I worte.
> 
> This sounds like you think I am addressing Z and I am not. I am saying that sigh can mean ANYTHING coming from his wife. All he knows is she was irritated about something, but without "honest communication" he had to guess. I didn't say it wasn't a big message, I disagreed it was "honest communication on this front." Heck, my post agrees it is a message. I just didn't add "big.". I said it is dishonest and I disagree with your assertion she deserves some type of credit for her passive aggressive rudeness and game playing.
> 
> You know, in my world.


Why is it passive aggressive? Why can it not be just her probably involuntary action of the moment?


----------



## jld

anonmd said:


> That's a crock of crap. The next time that happens* pull out immediately and leave the room. *DON'T apologize. DON'T grovel. If she asks what's wrong *tell her to let you know when she is ready to be a wife*.


How do you think your wife would respond to your following anonmd's advice, Z?


----------



## Holland

jld said:


> How do you think your wife would respond to your following anonmd's advice, Z?


I think his advice is sound. Sorry but if I got a sigh, hurry up, I'm bored, don't want to be here type of message I would stop, get up and leave the room.

If she is not there in the act heart and soul, then she should talk about it at a time when they are not having sex. 

I read his post as the sighing is a message akin to "I have better things to do". Sorry but what better things do you (general) have to do than bond with your spouse and participate in building a stronger relationship?


----------



## jld

Holland said:


> I think his advice is sound. Sorry but if I got a sigh, hurry up, I'm bored, don't want to be here type of message I would stop, get up and leave the room.
> 
> If she is not there in the act heart and soul, then she should talk about it at a time when they are not having sex.
> 
> I read his post as the sighing is a message akin to "I have better things to do". Sorry but what better things do you (general) have to do than bond with your spouse and participate in building a stronger relationship?


What if she does not care about talking about it? What if she does not care about building a stronger relationship? Is following this advice going to inspire her to want to do those things?

Maybe so. Maybe some women respond well to this.


----------



## lifeistooshort

MEM11363 said:


> No
> 
> No no no
> 
> Sorry but....
> Here's how this works IRL.
> - I deliver a message.
> - You choose to focus on the delivery style - and in so doing - dismiss the content. In other words, you use the delivery style as an excuse for dismissing the content. That is a no go in my world.
> 
> Sighing like that - is a big message. Course it hurts. Sorry Z - I'm not a dummy - would hurt me too. Doesn't change the fact - it's a big deal.
> 
> Filters off (folks with weak stomachs turn back here):
> 
> There is no neutral sex. It's either good or bad. If it's not good - that means it's bad. This - hurry up message - is important.
> 
> Ignore it at your peril.


On this we can agree.


----------



## lifeistooshort

anonmd said:


> That's a crock of crap. The next time that happens pull out immediately and leave the room. DON'T apologize. DON'T grovel.* If she asks what's wrong tell her to let you know when she is ready to be a wife.*


Counterproductive. All that means is to let him know when she's ready to keep her discontent to herself and fake it.

But I would stop it right there and tell her that you have no desire for pity or hurry up and get it over with sex.

That preserves dignity.


----------



## Holland

jld said:


> What if she does not care about talking about it? *What if she does not care about building a stronger relationship? *Is following this advice going to inspire her to want to do those things?
> 
> Maybe so. Maybe some women respond well to this.


In that case he would do well to get out with his dignity intact, move on and find happiness with a woman that wants to be with him for who he is not what he provides.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Holland said:


> I think his advice is sound. Sorry but if I got a sigh, hurry up, I'm bored, don't want to be here type of message I would stop, get up and leave the room.


See and this is what I meant. You added three more to my list and why it is not honest communication. Well, let's add some for the ladies.
What if she wasn't getting her needs met?
What if it was going to be a quickie?
What if he was doing something he knows she doesn't like?
Heck, let's say he DID misinterpret the sigh and it was pleasure?
What if a random thought, laundry, entered her mind?

This is why I say "passive aggressive." Whatever it was leads to unnecessary turmoil, when it can be interpreted multiple ways.
This is how resentment builds and breaks marriages. It rarely starts with huge things, it is that small issue that is never addressed.


----------



## jld

Holland said:


> In that case he would do well to get out with his dignity intact, move on and find happiness with a woman that wants to be with him for who he is not what he provides.


And if they did not have kids, I would agree.


----------



## lifeistooshort

jld said:


> Those massages and hugs sound great. Give yourself credit for those deposits that you are making in her emotional bank account, Z. They may be the reason things are not worse than they are.
> 
> Try to ignore the sighing. Life is so much easier when we do not take everything personally. Saying something like, "Sorry to be so long. I know you are busy," said in a genuinely caring way might spark some sensitivity in her.
> 
> To curtail arguing, learn about and practice Active Listening.
> 
> Just saw what you added. I agree, and I would not give up the job. *It is the only thing I disagree with my friend life on. And she is usually right, so you may just want to ignore me on that. *
> 
> My desire for my husband is because he nurtures me without needing nurturing himself. I just cannot resist that kind of strength. I am powerless in the face of it, tbh.



You're entitled to disagree with me :smile2:

I'm sure I'm wrong once in a while :wink2:, I just throw my opinion out there and people can do what they want with it.

I think that this situation works for some, clearly you and Dug have made it work, but not everyone can pull it off. I know I couldn't.

The same thing happens in the military; I saw plenty of marriages break with the constant separations while others endured. Why? Some couples have have the capacity to make it work but it requires both parties to be able to handle it.

I don't think that's the case here.


----------



## Holland

phillybeffandswiss said:


> See and this is what I meant. You added three more to my list and why it is not honest communication. Well, let's add some for the ladies.
> What if she wasn't getting her needs met?
> What if it was going to be a quickie?
> What if he was doing something he knows she doesn't like?
> Heck, let's say he DID misinterpret the sigh and it was pleasure?
> What if a random thought, laundry, entered her mind?
> 
> This is why I say "passive aggressive." Whatever it was leads to unnecessary turmoil, when it can be interpreted multiple ways.
> This is how resentment builds and breaks marriages. It rarely starts with huge things, it is that small issue that is never addressed.


Did you want answers to these questions from our POV?


----------



## Holland

jld said:


> And if they did not have kids, I would agree.


And if couples do have kids it is even more important to set the example of what a good, healthy relationship looks like.


----------



## jld

lifeistooshort said:


> You're entitled to disagree with me :smile2:
> 
> I'm sure I'm wrong once in a while :wink2:, I just throw my opinion out there and people can do what they want with it.
> 
> I think that this situation works for some, clearly you and Dug have made it work, but not everyone can pull it off. I know I couldn't.
> 
> The same thing happens in the military; I saw plenty of marriages break with the constant separations while others endured. Why? Some couples have have the capacity to make it work but it requires both parties to be able to handle it.
> 
> I don't think that's the case here.


You feel like if he were around more, she would feel more connected to him?

I think it's possible. It is worth trying that before divorcing, if he is concerned about going down that path.

My concern is that he would be around more but there still would not be an increase in the emotional connection she feels with him. His attentiveness to her interests could increase that connection, I think. 

I know I feel closer to Dug when he invests emotional energy in my interests. His being around but not really being emotionally present, say deeply into his cycling activities instead, tends to leave me feeling disappointed and resentful.


----------



## jld

Holland said:


> And if couples do have kids it is even more important to set the example of what a good, healthy relationship looks like.


I agree. But I don't think walking off in a huff and blaming her for his disappointment is going to get them there.

But I don't know her. Z does, and he may think it is exactly the right thing to do.


----------



## anonmd

All I can tell you is how one women reacted, she got REALLY pissed off! When you take away the chief means of manipulation and control that tends to happen. Led to a very frank and emotional conversation for a change. After which we finished what we started, with feeling .


----------



## Holland

jld said:


> You feel like if he were around more, she would feel more connected to him?
> 
> I think it's possible. It is worth trying that before divorcing, if he is concerned about going down that path.
> 
> My concern is that he would be around more but there still would not be an increase in the emotional connection she feels with him. His attentiveness to her interests could increase that connection, I think.
> 
> *And her being more realistic and decreasing the time she allocates to her interests may just increase her energy and investment in their relationship.*
> 
> I know I feel closer to Dug when he invests emotional energy in my interests. His being around but not really being emotionally present, say deeply into his cycling activities instead, tends to leave me feeling disappointed and resentful.
> 
> *I understand this and agree. The difference here though is that she doesn't seem to try and meet him half way. It is important for both people to have their own interests and some shared interests, quality time together as a family and quality time together as a couple. This is a balancing act both adults need to work on as a team not as opponents. *


----------



## jld

And if she were also seeking more closeness and connection, I would agree with you, @Holland. But she does not seem to care. 

Without her also wanting it, to me it looks like it is up to him to inspire that interest. The only other thing he can do is try to force change by announcing he is leaving. But the risk is that she decides she is okay with that. I don't think he really wants to leave her.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I know my ex went through the motions one night. I threw him off of me literally into the floor and said, I will not tolerate going through the motions.

Totally caught him off guard.

He never did it again. Never even had to discuss it beyond that moment.


----------



## Holland

jld said:


> And if she were also seeking more closeness and connection, I would agree with you, @Holland. But she does not seem to care.
> 
> Without her also wanting it, to me it looks like it is up to him to inspire that interest. The only other thing he can do is try to force change by announcing he is leaving. But the risk is that she decides she is okay with that. I don't think he really wants to leave her.


Given the situation the OP has described leaving sounds like a good option.

We are not in total disagreement here JLD but to be blunt, airy fairy pandering to her whims is far more risky for all involved. She won't change unless she is forced to, no amount of bowing to her will make her change in the right direction, if anything it appears she will just have more time to do her own thing.

Q: "how many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb?"
A: "One, but the light bulb has to want to change."


----------



## jld

Holland said:


> Given the situation the OP has described leaving sounds like a good option.
> 
> We are not in total disagreement here JLD but to be blunt, airy fairy pandering to her whims is far more risky for all involved. She won't change unless she is forced to, no amount of bowing to her will make her change in the right direction, if anything it appears she will just have more time to do her own thing.
> 
> Q: "how many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb?"
> A: "One, but the light bulb has to want to change."


But she is not an inanimate object. She has all of her own feelings on this.

And what if he does not want to leave? 

He wants her to be enthusiastic, genuinely enthusiastic to have sex with him as I understand it. What if she simply does not feel it?

I don't think anyone can be forced to feel genuine enthusiasm for sex with someone. Sounds like an oxymoron.

Maybe I am missing something, though. Has anyone here been forced into genuine enthusiasm for sex? How does that work?


----------



## MEM2020

Philly,
Not trying to be a dlck. Sorry for irritating. Let me frame this differently. 

I'll begin by observing that:
- sexual criticism is often an emotionally loaded act
- she and the kids are entirely financially dependent on Z

Most ambiguity in emotionally intense situations is a by product of fear. 

Body language (e.g. Sighing) enables plausible deniability. 

Words - not so much. 

The sighing opens a door to a conversation. But that conversation needs to be about seeking understanding - not complaining about the fact sex isn't always so fun for her....






phillybeffandswiss said:


> Right in your world Thanks. So, yes yes yes yes yes what I wrote ALSO works "IRL." Let's make sure you understand my post, as the last little bit makes no sense to me in context to what I worte.
> 
> This sounds like you think I am addressing Z and I am not. I am saying that sigh can mean ANYTHING coming from his wife. All he knows is she was irritated about something, but without "honest communication" he had to guess. I didn't say it wasn't a big message, I disagreed it was "honest communication on this front." Heck, my post agrees it is a message. I just didn't add "big.". I said it is dishonest and I disagree with your assertion she deserves some type of credit for her passive aggressive rudeness and game playing.
> 
> You know, in my world.


----------



## anonmd

To which I would posit, it may not always be so fun for her because she does nothing to put her mind in a position to be receptive. Relationship are two way streets, she needs to do her part. 

For @jld, enthusiasm may be too male a term. There is a mental switch that SHE needs to flip to be even the slightest bit open and not disdainful.


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## Catherine602

If you are absolutely sure that she is sighing in the middle of sex, it is incredibly cruel. You are at your most vulnerable and open and she kicks you. She may not see it in that light because she is thinking of herself and how put out she is. However, the apparent underlying message is that she does not need to treat you with respect. 

As others have said, you need to be sure that your interpretation is correct. What corroborating evidence do you have? Nevertheless, I believe that the only way to get back on track is to work on gaining her respect again. If you can't get that then things will continue as they are. How do you get her respect? She needs to value what you bring into her life and she has to fear that she may lose you. 

It appear that she can treat you with disrespect and even cruelty and get no response from you. You should at lest decode her behavior and check with her to know what she is thinking. If is singling boredom then let her know that it is cruel for the reasons I pointed out above. Check with her to make sure she does not feel you treat her disrespectfully. 

Ask her if she wants the tone of the relationship to be disrespecting each other. If so, you have no choice but to assent to her. Respond as soon as she does something you feel is disrespectful. Check with her but don't accuse. Don't argue, just say what you say calmly and don't be drawn into an argument. The more self-control and independence you show, the more she will be drawn to you, if there are any emotions left in her for you. 

Try very hard not to be drawn into arguments. I am sure you have triggers, she knows them and yanks the right chains. She can't express what is really bothering her so she lets off steam by poking you. You don't want to be controlled like that. 

Your wife may feel that she could do as well without you as she can with you. These may not be conscious thoughts, however, I bet she would not treat you so disrespectfully if she felt you were an essential part of her life that she treasured.


----------



## MEM2020

Yes

But this happens via a non threatening conversation.

And FWIW - I DO think she has a hard time turning off the constant stream of mommy thoughts. And I am NOT saying she is free from responsibility. 

Just that - it's better to understand first - and respond second. 

Reason M2 is so good in bed - technique aside - she is absolutely focused on me. And me on her. 

If she wasn't - I'd ask how to help her 'get there', wouldn't hammer her for being distracted. 

It's ok to say - hey that lack of effort / focus - is hurtful. But I wouldn't start with that - I'd start by trying to understand what was happening. 








anonmd said:


> To which I would posit, it may not always be so fun for her because she does nothing to put her mind in a position to be receptive. Relationship are two way streets, she needs to do her part.
> 
> For @jld, enthusiasm may be too male a term. There is a mental switch that SHE needs to flip to be even the slightest bit open and not disdainful.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

MEM11363 said:


> Philly,
> Not trying to be a dlck. Sorry for irritating. Let me frame this differently.
> 
> I'll begin by observing that:
> - sexual criticism is often an emotionally loaded act
> - she and the kids are entirely financially dependent on Z
> 
> Most ambiguity in emotionally intense situations is a by product of fear.
> 
> Body language (e.g. Sighing) enables plausible deniability.
> 
> Words - not so much.
> 
> The sighing opens a door to a conversation. But that conversation needs to be about seeking understanding - not complaining about the fact sex isn't always so fun for her....


Where In my post did I say I disagree with any of your specific assertions except one? Frame it anyway you want, I have ONLY disagreed with your assertion it is honest. Sighing is sending a message, but it isn't honest communication. Honesty encompasses everything you mentioned not just expression. So, if she is scared, sighs, says nothing and he has to read her body language to tell her true intentions, it is being dishonest. 

I'm not going to argue body language with you because words are just as important. Body language can lie just as well as words.

That is it.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Holland said:


> Did you want answers to these questions from our POV?


Nope. These are what ifs that the sigh could mean regardless of any of our assertions or interpretations. My point is he doesn't know what the sigh means, but he can guess while the rest of us make assumptions.


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## ZDog377

Sorry about the delay in answering, I went to bed and wake up to two more pages of responses.....

- The sighing. This one might be a long one. Yes, it has happened multiple times. In bed and in other places such as the shower where manual stimulation occurs. Not saying this is right, but I've explained to her that it can't be over in 30 seconds. I've asked her what she's sighing about in the shower and she'll respond with she has stuff to do before bed. Once again, I can tell "us" isn't a priority. There have been times when she has done it upstairs in bed and I've asked what's wrong. She says it's uncomfortable.....fine, let's try something else. Lube, different position, anything like that. Then we get into an argument because she says just get it over with and I tell her I don't want to if it doesn't feel good for her. She says she is always thinking of everything else going on during that time. I told her I feel like it is the only time that it can be just us. 

- The chaperon for the field trip. There might have been some miscommunication here. I told her that I wouldn't mind going because I was home that week and figured it would be fun. I thought we would be in charge of our own child and that was it. I didn't realize it would put me in charge of how many other kids. The problem is now that the two younger ones have to go to the babysitter all day while we are on the field trip. Probably close to $50 since we will be gone for the day. 

We had a talk last night about her volunteering activities she told me the one lady she is in PTO with has had the same discussion with her husband. The other woman is also on various boards (cheerleading, softball, etc). The other lady just told her husband they're only young once and that's it. My wife proposed her quitting her job and only doing the volunteering. I tried to explain that it's not going out and doing those things that frustrates me. It's things popping up last minute and her always getting screwed. If she said something like she was going to be at the school for two hours every Tuesday, great.....but then Thursday morning comes and I have plans and she says she needs to be at the school again for a few hours, it's frustrating. She will take the kids sometimes, but most of the times the kids will stay home with me if I'm home. 

She cooks the meals on the weekends which I am grateful for. I'm usually the one that does the laundry/cleaning on weekends just because I can't stand it. Part of me wonders if she secretly knows this. She will load the dishwasher, but she has so many things that can't be put in the dishwasher.


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## Blossom Leigh

So basically she gave you "tough" when you expressed hurt over her not having enough time for you as a couple non sexually or sexually. 

So she has made her choice. She isn't going to make room for you in her life.


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## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> So basically she gave you "tough" when you expressed hurt over her not having enough time for you as a couple non sexually or sexually.
> 
> So she has made her choice. She isn't going to make room for you in her life.


One of her quotes she will use every so often is this "tell me what I need to cut out so I can make more time". I bring up the kids and sports, they need to be active. Volunteering? She needs some time out of the house.......


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*

@ZDog377:

Your marriage is in serious trouble.

Beyond the debate over needing to find a job with less travel even if it means with less pay (in which I am in agreement), your wife...tolerates you. Tolerates. And barely at that.

Let that sink in for a moment.

Until she begins to recognize and respect your contribution to the marriage, she will continue to barely tolerate you. 

I stand by my assertion that destabilizing is the answer. Of course she won't like it. But at a minimum, it has the ability to open up some honest dialogue. Because while she expresses her disappointment through passive aggressive sighs, as Philly has said, she has not been honest with you or you would know she is no longer attracted to you.

Let that sink in for a moment as well. You are pursuing sex with someone who does not want to have sex with you.

The time for talking is long past.



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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> Sorry about the delay in answering, I went to bed and wake up to two more pages of responses.....
> 
> - The sighing. This one might be a long one. Yes, it has happened multiple times. In bed and in other places such as the shower where manual stimulation occurs. Not saying this is right, but I've explained to her that it can't be over in 30 seconds. I've asked her what she's sighing about in the shower and she'll respond with she has stuff to do before bed. Once again, I can tell "us" isn't a priority. There have been times when she has done it upstairs in bed and I've asked what's wrong. She says it's uncomfortable.....fine, let's try something else. Lube, different position, anything like that. Then we get into an argument because she says just get it over with and I tell her I don't want to if it doesn't feel good for her. *She says she is always thinking of everything else going on during that time.* I told her I feel like it is the only time that it can be just us.


This is what I thought, that she is just very busy. I really do not think it is meant to hurt you. It is just the involuntary expression of her desire to get going with her day.

I think the deep conversation that MEM has suggested, done calmly and without accusation, is the wisest way to approach this. No sense making things worse by increasing tension. That is unlikely, imo anyway, to increase the emotional connection you are looking for. And it is the emotional connection that is going to lead to fulfilling sex. 

Seeking to understand her, with genuine love and caring, is likely to increase that emotional connection.



> - The chaperon for the field trip. There might have been some miscommunication here. I told her that I wouldn't mind going because I was home that week and figured it would be fun. I thought we would be in charge of our own child and that was it. I didn't realize it would put me in charge of how many other kids. The problem is now that the two younger ones have to go to the babysitter all day while we are on the field trip. Probably close to $50 since we will be gone for the day.


It seems pretty common for chaperones to be assigned groups of kids. Just FYI for the future.

Did you explain your concern about the financial aspect? $50 is a lot for a young family on a single income.



> We had a talk last night about her volunteering activities she told me the one lady she is in PTO with has had the same discussion with her husband. The other woman is also on various boards (cheerleading, softball, etc). *The other lady just told her husband they're only young once and that's it. * My wife proposed her quitting her job and only doing the volunteering. I tried to explain that it's not going out and doing those things that frustrates me. It's things popping up last minute and her always getting screwed. If she said something like she was going to be at the school for two hours every Tuesday, great.....but then Thursday morning comes and I have plans and she says she needs to be at the school again for a few hours, it's frustrating. She will take the kids sometimes, but most of the times the kids will stay home with me if I'm home.


Again, sounds pretty normal for the type of very involved parent that your wife is. She did not expect to be able to have children with you, and she wants to live every moment with them to the fullest.

I may be in the minority, but I have a lot of respect for that kind of parent. I am not personally that selfless. But I have known a few parents who are that way, just totally devoted to their kids from sunup to sundown, and at least from my pov, it is pretty impressive. 



> She cooks the meals on the weekends which I am grateful for. I'm usually the one that does the laundry/cleaning on weekends just because I can't stand it. *Part of me wonders if she secretly knows this.* She will load the dishwasher, but she has so many things that can't be put in the dishwasher.


Again, I do not think any of this is done on purpose to hurt you. She is just different than you are in her priorities. It does not make either one of you good or bad. You are just different from each other.

Have you talked openly about your concerns, not accusingly, but just openly and honestly? Could she make simpler meals that require fewer dishes, for example?


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## ZDog377

jld said:


> This is what I thought, that she is just very busy. I really do not think it is meant to hurt you. It is just the involuntary expression of her desire to get going with her day.
> 
> I think the deep conversation that MEM has suggested, done calmly and without accusation, is the wisest way to approach this. No sense making things worse by increasing tension. That is unlikely, imo anyway, to increase the emotional connection you are looking for. And it is the emotional connection that is going to lead to fulfilling sex.
> 
> Seeking to understand her, with genuine love and caring, is likely to increase that emotional connection.
> 
> 
> 
> It seems pretty common for chaperones to be assigned groups of kids. Just FYI for the future.
> 
> Did you explain your concern about the financial aspect? $50 is a lot for a young family on a single income.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, sounds pretty normal for the type of very involved parent that your wife is. She did not expect to be able to have children with you, and she wants to live every moment with them to the fullest.
> 
> I may be in the minority, but I have a lot of respect for that kind of parent. I am not personally that selfless. But I have known a few parents who are that way, just totally devoted to their kids from sunup to sundown, and at least from my pov, it is pretty impressive.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I do not think any of this is done on purpose to hurt you. She is just different than you are in her priorities. It does not make either one of you good or bad. You are just different from each other.
> 
> Have you talked openly about your concerns, not accusingly, but just openly and honestly? Could she make simpler meals that require fewer dishes, for example?


I don't think the sigh is intended to hurt but it does. We usually have activities at night, right before bed. She doesn't have much else going on with her day at that point. 

Here is the thing though. The child she is 100% devoted to right now is the one that she had from a previous relationship. I know I'm going to sound like a **** for saying this, but I wish she would at least give me some credit for busting my ass so she can be home and dedicated to the kids. I've told her and shown her plenty of times before how things go better when we give each other a pat on the behind (figuratively). There are weekends where I get home at 1 AM Saturday morning, do house stuff/kid stuff all weekend and get maybe 3/4 hours of sleep before I have to go to the airport Monday morning. I'm not asking for a ticker tape parade, but something more than a hug/kiss goodbye in the morning before I leave. 

I've talked to her about the financial concerns. That's the kind of stuff she wants to get money for. Sending the kids to camp, vacations, things like that. Saving some for an emergency fund or anything like that never comes up. Pretty soon we will be getting less of a tax refund because she hasn't been paying on her student loans that are north of 100K.......


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &amp;quot;touched out&amp;quot;*

Of course it is not done intentionally to hurt you.

The problem is that it is done without any regard for you at all.

You wants don't matter to her.

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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I don't think the sigh is intended to hurt but it does. We usually have activities at night, right before bed. She doesn't have much else going on with her day at that point.
> 
> Here is the thing though. The child she is 100% devoted to right now is the one that she had from a previous relationship. I know I'm going to sound like a **** for saying this, but I wish she would at least give me some credit for busting my ass so she can be home and dedicated to the kids. I've told her and shown her plenty of times before how things go better when we give each other a pat on the behind (figuratively). There are weekends where I get home at 1 AM Saturday morning, do house stuff/kid stuff all weekend and get maybe 3/4 hours of sleep before I have to go to the airport Monday morning. I'm not asking for a ticker tape parade, but something more than a hug/kiss goodbye in the morning before I leave.
> 
> I've talked to her about the financial concerns. That's the kind of stuff she wants to get money for. Sending the kids to camp, vacations, things like that. Saving some for an emergency fund or anything like that never comes up. Pretty soon we will be getting less of a tax refund because *she hasn't been paying on her student loans that are north of 100K*.......


Yikes on the bolded! What is the plan for paying that down? 

More to discuss here, but first things first. I don't want to see you two end up in bankruptcy.


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Yikes on the bolded! What is the plan for paying that down?
> 
> More to discuss here, but first things first. I don't want to see you two end up in bankruptcy.


W...T...F...

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## ZDog377

jld said:


> Yikes on the bolded! What is the plan for paying that down?
> 
> More to discuss here, but first things first. I don't want to see you two end up in bankruptcy.


I forget what the exact amount is but she would have to pay $3-$400 dollars a month just to cover interest. We tried the income based repayment plan with her not working and they want around $700/month. We have $2-$300 month left over. She had all her loans before we got married, so nothing I can do there. Her story is that regulations changed and made her degrees pretty much useless. She's already declared bankruptcy once anyways, plus you can't get rid of student loan debt with bankruptcy.


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I forget what the exact amount is but she would have to pay $3-$400 dollars a month just to cover interest. We tried the income based repayment plan with her not working and they want around $700/month. We have $2-$300 month left over. She had all her loans before we got married, so nothing I can do there. Her story is that regulations changed and made her degrees pretty much useless. She's already declared bankruptcy once anyways, plus you can't get rid of student loan debt with bankruptcy.


But you could lose your house and any other assets if they decided to collect, right?

I understand you may be thinking that if that were to happen, you might just split, that it is not your problem. But I think it could end up affecting you. So it would be wise to take some action on this.

How old are the two of you and what are her degrees in, if I may ask?


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*

I don't like the picture that is forming. The more details you disclose, the more I have questions about your wife's character...and your spine.

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## ZDog377

jld said:


> But you could lose your house and any other assets if they decided to collect, right?
> 
> I understand you may be thinking that if that were to happen, you might just split, that it is not your problem. But I think it could end up affecting you. So it would be wise to take some action on this.
> 
> How old are the two of you and what are her degrees in, if I may ask?


All of our assets are in my name, both cars and the house. When we filed our taxes for 2014, I was told I could fill out a form that says I am not responsible for any of the debt since it was created before we got married.


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> All of our assets are in my name, both cars and the house. When we filed our taxes for 2014, I was told I could fill out a form that says I am not responsible for any of the debt since it was created before we got married.


Have you done that? Or would you only need to if she were considered to be in default?

Is she not already considered to be in default?


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## Blossom Leigh

I believe she is full of horse hockey and a hypocrit to boot.

SHE wants appreciation and you home more, but hell will freeze over before you get her appreciation to you and her time from her. Hypocrit. 

The ONLY way to rebalance an extremely out of balance relationship is to destabilize it. 

You need to follow farside on this. He and I are both destabilizers but he is a touch more lenient than me. When I destabilize, I go to the teeth with it. No sense in wasted energy in my perview. 

You deserve better ZDog and I hope you get it.


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## ZDog377

jld said:


> Have you done that? Or would you only need to if she were considered to be in default?
> 
> Is she not already considered to be in default?


I can do it after the fact. I believe she just went into default a few months ago. She was in forbearance, but that ran out.


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## jld

Not exactly your situation,mZ, but interesting, nonetheless:

_mtDNA said: ↑
Hey guys, I am a 3rd year med student who is engaged. My fiance has $100,000 in debt from student loans that she will never be able to repay. My question is this: When we are married, will I have to pay back her loans? if I dont, will my credit be ruined?

and if the answer is yes, I do need to pay for her loans, my next question is is it possible to set up some kind of prenuptial agreement to make things different? I just feel like I should not be responsible for paying back all of this debt, especially since I will have a ton of debt from my own schooling as it is. My fiance agrees that she does not think I should be responsible for this, and she is on board for a prenup if necessary.

I guess I am just hoping that one of us can manage to have good credit..._

*One response:*

_Click to expand...

This is a riot.
Here we go.
1. If you get divorced with an iron clad pre-nup then she is literally up **** creek without a paddle...MOUNTAINS of debt (interest pluss fees over the entire time she ignores the loan) and no credit to start her life over with. You'll basically destroy her, not that anyone plans on getting a divorce.
2. If your pre-nup is not the best and she decides not to be nice to you she'll rape your ass in court. She needs to live, never had a job, has no credit to get a place to live...guess who's job it is to pay for all that now? You.

Either of the above situations would be just fine with me.

In addition...
*3.* Want to file taxes together to lower your taxable income? sorry, they'll garnish your tax return for student loans.
*4. *Thinking of collecting social security for your wife one day? whoops...they'll garnish that too.
*5. *You could wait 20 years for the debt to explode to lets say 500k (im just pulling numbers out of my ass here) NOW the gov. decides that YOU have enough money to pay them so they sue you. There is no statute of limitations on them suing for student loan repayment. You may win if its all her debt but you'll have to pay to fight the case and you may lose.
*6. *you get wacked by a car and die at the age of 55! All that money you were going to leave to your wife and kids....GONE! Thats right, as soon as it became hers they snatched up 10 times what you would have owed them just paying it off.

Anyway, good luck!_


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I can do it after the fact. I believe she just went into default a few months ago. She was in forbearance, but that ran out.


I would get professional advice on this. I can't believe this has only just now come up in the thread. This is a very serious problem.


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## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> I can do it after the fact. I believe she just went into default a few months ago. She was in forbearance, but that ran out.


There is no excuse for that. She is going to royally screw yall for allowing that to happen. Lates on school loans are one of the WORST hits to a credit score. And I believe it stays on for ten years. If I were you I would do my homework on the effect of allowing that loan to default. She needs to pull her head out of her ass before she bankrupts yall.


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## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> There is no excuse for that. She is going to royally screw yall for allowing that to happen. Lates on school loans are one of the WORST hits to a credit score. And I believe it stays on for ten years. If I were you I would do my homework on the effect of allowing that loan to default. She needs to pull her head out of her ass before she bankrupts yall.


She has no credit to begin with. She declared bankruptcy once four years ago. My other understand on this is that they cannot garnish all of her wages (once she gets some). They have to leave her a certain percentage to live on. I will plan on getting some advice from a lawyer. I'm guessing it would be a tax lawyer?


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> She has no credit to begin with. She declared bankruptcy once four years ago. My other understand on this is that they cannot garnish all of her wages (once she gets some). They have to leave her a certain percentage to live on. I will plan on getting some advice from a lawyer. I'm guessing it would be a tax lawyer?


Good question. It would be nice if there were some free service, like a gov't agency, that you could talk to about this. But you may indeed have to pay a lawyer.

Why did she declare bankruptcy four years ago?


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## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> There is no excuse for that. She is going to royally screw yall for allowing that to happen. Lates on school loans are one of the WORST hits to a credit score. And I believe it stays on for ten years. If I were you I would do my homework on the effect of allowing that loan to default. She needs to pull her head out of her ass before she bankrupts yall.


Why only ten years? Do you have a reference on this?


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## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> She has no credit to begin with. She declared bankruptcy once four years ago. My other understand on this is that they cannot garnish all of her wages (once she gets some). They have to leave her a certain percentage to live on. I will plan on getting some advice from a lawyer. I'm guessing it would be a tax lawyer?


See if you can find one that specializes in credit issues. Tax is good, but I think this needs one more specialized.

I'm seeing a wife who is unprincipled, lazy, who doesnt care about the impact her behavior has on your family the more you talk.

Sorry Zdog.


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## ZDog377

jld said:


> Good question. It would be nice if there were some free service, like a gov't agency, that you could talk to about this. But you may indeed have to pay a lawyer.
> 
> Why did she declare bankruptcy four years ago?


It was actually a little more than four years ago, maybe 4.5? Anyways, she had bought a house before we got married. This was when we were just talking and had not even met yet. It was only two bedrooms and had a host of problems throughout. We knew that it would not sell and that it was too late to go after the real estate agent that sold it to her. We found out the only way to 100% be rid of it was to have her declare bankruptcy since only her name was on the house.


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## jld

From what I am reading, a lot of people are in the same position as your wife. They take out loans when they are young, not realizing how much those loans will constrain them in the future. And apparently they do not get wise counsel from their parents, either.

Well, we the taxpayers will all pay if there is massive default.


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> It was actually a little more than four years ago, maybe 4.5? Anyways, she had bought a house before we got married. This was when we were just talking and had not even met yet. It was only two bedrooms and had a host of problems throughout. We knew that it would not sell and that it was too late to go after the real estate agent that sold it to her. We found out the only way to 100% be rid of it was to have her declare bankruptcy since only her name was on the house.


So that just compounded her problems.

Z, sounds like your wife does not make very savvy financial decisions.


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## anonmd

jld said:


> Why only ten years? Do you have a reference on this?


10 years from the last activity, standard rule. You default, I report it, the clock starts. Next month you are still in default, I report it, the clock is extended by a month. 5 years from now you have a windfall and pay it off, I report the payoff, the clock on the original default is now 9 years and 11 months and goes down a month as time advances.


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## jld

anonmd said:


> 10 years from the last activity, standard rule. You default, I report it, the clock starts. Next month you are still in default, I report it, the clock is extended by a month. 5 years from now you have a windfall and pay it off, I report the payoff, the clock on the original default is now 9 years and 11 months and goes down a month as time advances.


So if she remains in default, her credit will suffer indefinitely?


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## farsidejunky

Blossom Leigh said:


> See if you can find one that specializes in credit issues. Tax is good, but I think this needs one more specialized.
> 
> I'm seeing a wife who is unprincipled, lazy, who doesnt care about the impact her behavior has on your family the more you talk.
> 
> Sorry Zdog.


Yep.

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## ZDog377

jld said:


> So that just compounded her problems.
> 
> Z, sounds like your wife does not make very savvy financial decisions.


Now does everybody see why I don't have a joint account with her except for income tax money? I'm making the monthly payment on my loans and I think they will be paid off in another 5 years? 

She's good with my money because she knows how anal (can I say that word?) I am with my money.


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> Now does everybody see why I don't have a joint account with her except for income tax money? I'm making the monthly payment on my loans and I think they will be paid off in another 5 years?
> 
> She's good with my money because she knows how anal (can I say that word?) I am with my money.


Yes. If I were not good with money, I am sure I would only have limited access to it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> Now does everybody see why I don't have a joint account with her except for income tax money? I'm making the monthly payment on my loans and I think they will be paid off in another 5 years?
> 
> She's good with my money because she knows how anal (can I say that word?) I am with my money.


Yep and now I also see why she whines about having to ask you for money because she doesn't want to be held responsible/accountable. She is irresponsible and her chronic irresponsibility is destructive to your marriage and ultimately your family. This will be the lynchpin. 

that is the spot I would hit hard and fast and create a total new paradigm moving forward. This is one I would put on notice that she either straighten herself around or things are going to be VERY different going forward. If you are not ready for divorce talk, there are other ways to create a situation that causes enough pain for her to choose different behavior. Someone didn't do this for her when she was young and y'all are paying for it now.... especially the kids.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Blossom Leigh said:


> I think sighing in the middle is freakin rude. She can use words to express what she is unhappy about. She's an adult.


I was speaking to my husband about this thread last night... how he would feel if I did that (the sighing)... he said it would be like a "SLAP IN THE FACE"... it's important to be able to please your woman, so he feels...wouldn't most men feel this way?.. .. otherwise it's like non verbally saying "you suck in bed!"... that's how he would take it anyway.. 

VERY RUDE and very telling indeed.


----------



## anonmd

You don't need a marriage councilor, you need a financial planner. Speaking as one whose wife had an alias 20 years ago, Jesse James! , let me try to help with a few comments:

It would be good if she had kept her maiden or previously married name on all those prior accounts. If that is the case, NEVER change those! In our case, that is what she did. She did change her name legally but not on any old accounts, her credit was horrendous at the time, mine was sterling and remained that way always. 

Eventually after many years she paid what she owed and years and years after that now she has excellent credit. 

So, after 5 minutes of research on the student loan front here is what you need to do:

READ here https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans Call the Department of Education, there is a contact us link on the page. 

You are going to want to do income based repayment. 

You want that based on HER income not yours. 

In order to do that you will want to file separate tax returns. 

If you have already filed as joint you can't change it for that year per this IRS rule:

_Joint Return After Separate Returns

You can change your filing status from a separate return to a joint return by filing an amended return using Form 1040X.

You generally can change to a joint return any time within 3 years from the due date of the separate return or returns. This doesn't include any extensions. A separate return includes a return filed by you or your spouse claiming married filing separately, single, or head of household filing status.

Separate Returns After Joint Return

Once you file a joint return, you cannot choose to file separate returns for that year after the due date of the return._

But do choose married filing separately for the next year and then the following year do the income based repayment plan.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> It was actually a little more than four years ago, maybe 4.5? Anyways, she had bought a house before we got married. This was when we were just talking and had not even met yet. It was only two bedrooms and had a host of problems throughout. We knew that it would not sell and that it was too late to go after the real estate agent that sold it to her. We found out the only way to 100% be rid of it was to have her declare bankruptcy since only her name was on the house.


ugh... who in the hell gave ya'll that advice. BAD!!!!

So she also has a foreclosure on her record. 

There were many things that could have been done with that.

omg... that's a head banging moment for me right there.


----------



## anonmd

jld said:


> So if she remains in default, her credit will suffer indefinitely?


Yes, of course. Student loans only extinguish with death. 

If it was a consumer account they get written off and the reports stop. Sometimes no one ever follows up and the ten years expires but often they just get sold to a collector and the reports start up again.


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> ugh... who in the hell gave ya'll that advice. BAD!!!!
> 
> So she also has a foreclosure on her record.
> 
> There were many things that could have been done with that.
> 
> omg... that's a head banging moment for me right there.


We understand that for the most part, her credit will never be pristine again. The foreclosure/bankruptcy was something we had to do to get out of the house. It's gone up for tax sale three times and still hasn't sold. 

My credit is pretty much what is carrying us. I believe when I got my most recent credit card for work, my credit score was 740ish......


----------



## jld

@anonmd



ZDog377 said:


> I forget what the exact amount is but she would have to pay $3-$400 dollars a month just to cover interest. We tried the income based repayment plan with her not working and they want around $700/month. We have $2-$300 month left over. She had all her loans before we got married, so nothing I can do there. Her story is that regulations changed and made her degrees pretty much useless. She's already declared bankruptcy once anyways, plus you can't get rid of student loan debt with bankruptcy.


----------



## anonmd

Best course of action tax wise may be to divorce, she files single, you file head of household. Just say'in .


----------



## anonmd

jld said:


> @anonmd


Gotta file separate, her income is zero.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> We understand that for the most part, her credit will never be pristine again. The foreclosure/bankruptcy was something we had to do to get out of the house. It's gone up for tax sale three times and still hasn't sold.
> 
> My credit is pretty much what is carrying us. I believe when I got my most recent credit card for work, my credit score was 740ish......


What the hell did she buy?


----------



## farsidejunky

What does your wife contribute to the marriage?

This is not rhetorical. She takes care of the kids very well. That is great. But what about to the marriage? Not money, not time, not emotions, not support, not...the list goes on...while her liability list keeps growing as you post more about your history. 

What is her contribution besides her presence?


----------



## jld

anonmd said:


> Best course of action tax wise may be to divorce, she files single, you file head of household. Just say'in .


Have you seen a lawyer about a possible divorce, Z? I would think he or she might be able to give you at least some info on how her loan sitch would affect things.

I think some professional advice would be helpful at this point.

Also, are you two currently in MC?


----------



## anonmd

There is also always the possibility that she is not as oblivious as she seems as to how badly she has screwed the pooch here financially which results in or contributes to all the other issues. 

Time to take charge, come up with a plan and execute.


----------



## jld

anonmd said:


> There is also always the possibility that she is not as oblivious as she seems as to how badly she has screwed the pooch here financially which results in or contributes to all the other issues.
> 
> Time to take charge, come up with a plan and execute.


She does not strike me as savvy. Not in any way.

Devoted mother, though.


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> Have you seen a lawyer about a possible divorce, Z? I would think he or she might be able to give you at least some info on how her loan sitch would affect things.
> 
> I think some professional advice would be helpful at this point.
> 
> Also, are you two currently in MC?


We are not in marriage counseling at the moment. The babysitter situation along with the cost of counseling is too much right now. My insurance does not cover counseling and even with income based payment, I am still looking at $50/visit. Another $30-$40 for babysitting.


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> We are not in marriage counseling at the moment. The babysitter situation along with the cost of counseling is too much right now. My insurance does not cover counseling and even with income based payment, I am still looking at $50/visit. Another $30-$40 for babysitting.


Could you schedule it for the times her dad can watch the kids?

MC can end up saving couples money if it prevents divorce. You don't want to be penny-wise, but pound-foolish.


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> Could you schedule it for the times her dad can watch the kids?
> 
> MC can end up saving couples money if it prevents divorce. You don't want to be penny-wise, but pound-foolish.


Her dad comes down once a month/every month and a half. I don't think he could handle all three kids either.


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> Her dad comes down once a month/every month and a half. I don't think he could handle all three kids either.


Does she have a friend she could trade babysitting with?


----------



## RainbowBrite

ZDog377 said:


> Her dad comes down once a month/every month and a half. I don't think he could handle all three kids either.


The babysitting thing is not an insurmountable problem. Women do favours for each other all the time re: babysitting. I'm sure your wife can ask one of her friends to watch the kids once per week and offer to do the same for her friend.


----------



## RainbowBrite

Great minds, @jld


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Wife feels &amp;quot;touched out&amp;quot;*



farsidejunky said:


> Of course it is not done intentionally to hurt you.


 If a spouses says "this hurts me" and you continue to do said act, after a discussion, it is intentional. 

Sorry, repeated purposeful and willful actions are intentional.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

*Re: Wife feels &amp;quot;touched out&amp;quot;*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> If a spouses says "this hurts me" and you continue to do said act, after a discussion, it is intentional.
> 
> Sorry, repeated purposeful and willful actions are intentional.


I would have to agree.

Really makes me wonder about how she was raised.


----------



## anonmd

jld said:


> She does not strike me as savvy. Not in any way.
> 
> Devoted mother, though.


She is not savvy at all, that does not mean she is unaware of how big a screw up she is.

So far she has sunk her hooks in to 2 men to keep the boat afloat.


----------



## MarriedTex

Given the financial situation, extreme school "volunteering" is a luxury you can't afford. If she has the time to work at school that much, she has the time to work as a cashier at Target - or something. Yes, not as "fulfilling" as it would be in her dreams. But those are the consequences of decisions. I can't imagine her taking on the responsibilities of school PTO president while letting you tackle the financial dilemma (much of her own making) on your own. 

She should be thanking her lucky stars that you are there for her (and her child. I assume younger kids are yours.) That puts the "sighing during sex" issue is a much starker perspective. Pattern here seems to suggest you have a "little Princess" on your hands. 

Right now, it all seems to be a matter of timing. You can divorce her now or divorce her 10 years from now when you're really fed up with your one-way street relationship. From where I sit, it seems inevitable. The only variable is just how much are you willing to put up with before you get there yourself.


----------



## ZDog377

I really think after the conversation her and I just had, I'm going to see if I can set up some initial consults with a divorce lawyer. My dad is taking our middle son for a few days (today - Saturday). My dad doesn't like taking our oldest because all he does is sit there like a bump on a log. He'll give the usual one word answers and stuff that typical 10 year old kids do. I've explained to my 10 year old that he's lucky to have grandparents that he can still talk to and that stuff. He talks to her dad, but he is always taking him places and things like that when he comes down. It's more fun to go with her dad than mine. Our middle son loves to go with my dad because he's at that age where he is content to do pretty much anything. The oldest gets sad when he sees our middle son going with my dad. I try and tell him that my dad was like that when he was that age too, but it doesn't register. She then coddles him and tells him it's ok to be sad. 

I've tried to tell my dad that he needs to change too. But I can't tell an almost 65 year old guy what to do. He's sarcastic but I've learned to take it over the years of my life. My oldest on the other hand, somebody says one sarcastic thing and he's off in his room crying. My wife obviously asserts her opinion and says I need to tell my dad to knock the **** off or I'm not bringing any of the kids around anymore until he "shapes" up. I get frustrated because she says I need to stick up for my kids and tell my dad to stick it somewhere. She says I'm just getting mad because she's voicing her opinion.

This is one of the same arguments we have at least once a month. I feel she's too easy on the kids, she feels I'm too hard. She tells me that she's going to "protect" the kids until they're 18 and if I'm going to get mad at this, it will be a long 18 years......


----------



## ZDog377

MarriedTex said:


> Given the financial situation, extreme school "volunteering" is a luxury you can't afford. If she has the time to work at school that much, she has the time to work as a cashier at Target - or something. Yes, not as "fulfilling" as it would be in her dreams. But those are the consequences of decisions. I can't imagine her taking on the responsibilities of school PTO president while letting you tackle the financial dilemma (much of her own making) on your own.
> 
> She should be thanking her lucky stars that you are there for her (and her child. I assume younger kids are yours.) That puts the "sighing during sex" issue is a much starker perspective. Pattern here seems to suggest you have a "little Princess" on your hands.
> 
> Right now, it all seems to be a matter of timing. You can divorce her now or divorce her 10 years from now when you're really fed up with your one-way street relationship. From where I sit, it seems inevitable. The only variable is just how much are you willing to put up with before you get there yourself.


You know "little princess" seems to describe it quite well. The two younger kids are mine. I will say that working at Target would not be worth it financially. Daycare is roughly $300 (I think) for both kids. Target is barely going to cover that I would think. 

She also brought up about me working a local job. She said she doesn't know if it would make things better, but it would at least allow us to spend more time together.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I'd believe that when I see it. I bet she stays just as busy if not MORE so.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

What are her degrees in?


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> What are her degrees in?


Child Development and Adult Education


----------



## farsidejunky

I guess this is not painful enough for you to take action yet.

Hopefully, for your financial and emotional sake, you will get to that point.

Until then, your wife will be busy running this thing, and you will be busy trying to justify the unjustifiable within your own mind.

But please, continue, sir. I wouldn't want you to have to make more than a half-hearted stand against your wife.


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## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> Child Development and Adult Education


And how precisely do regulations render them useless?


----------



## ZDog377

farsidejunky said:


> I guess this is not painful enough for you to take action yet.
> 
> Hopefully, for your financial and emotional sake, you will get to that point.
> 
> Until then, your wife will be busy running this thing, and you will be busy trying to justify the unjustifiable within your own mind.
> 
> But please, continue, sir. I wouldn't want you to have to make more than a half-hearted stand against your wife.


Don't worry, I'm thinking I'm there just going to wait until Monday because that would be a **** move to do on Mother's Day.......


----------



## MarriedTex

Blossom Leigh said:


> And how precisely do regulations render them useless?


Yes, it would seem she would have skills to work in ad hoc tutoring programs with kids with developmental disabilities. 

I get the idea about cost of daycare. But somehow, she arranges care for the kids when she's doing her PTO duties.

Call me a skeptic, but I'm assuming the PTO duties are huge validation for her. She gets to be around teachers who really care for - and respect - her training. She actually is well-suited for being a bridge between parents and teachers. 

She will pour more and more effort into PTO over the years. She will continue to get motivation and a "high" from it that she will never get in the home environment. Years from now, you will look at her current level of school engagement as "the good 'ol days." As she gets more and more positive feedback from both sides of the school community, it will be her drug of choice that drives all lifestyle decisions.

This is going to get much worse for you, ZDog, before it gets better. When I read about your situation, the term "dead-man walking" comes to mind. Financial strains. Wife heaping volunteer duties onto the entire family plate. Wife who seems to prioritize everything except you. Congratulations, you have all the ingredients needed to ultimately crush Z-Dog's soul.


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## Holdingontoit

Give him a few years. He will be me. Zdog, those are the scariest words anyone on TAM will ever write to you.


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## ZDog377

@farsidejunky, I told her some of how I was feeling this morning. I know showing and telling are two different things, but I told her things are going to change until she shows me that I'm a priority to her. I told her that means one on one time and things like that. 

Not that this makes it right, but I believe her and I had a communication on this. She felt that being at the baseball games and things like that were doing stuff together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> @farsidejunky, I told her some of how I was feeling this morning. I know showing and telling are two different things, but I told her things are going to change until she shows me that I'm a priority to her. I told her that means one on one time and things like that.
> 
> Not that this makes it right, but I believe her and I had a communication on this. She felt that being at the baseball games and things like that were doing stuff together.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is one way to be together, but its her way. What style of us time is she willing to meet of yours? You still arent a priority. All she did was dismiss your desire.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*

Okay, so she said she's going to try harder. Fair enough. 

Give her a set amount of time. Say, three to four weeks. Over that time, see if her actions match her words.

If they do, you need to make sure that you acknowledge and thank her for it. If they do not, you repeat one more time the importance of your type of "together time". Give it another 3 to 4 weeks. 

If it does not happen during the second time, I would be in full destabilization mode.

Also, during this time., you damn well better make sure that you're meeting her needs as well.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## soccermom2three

I don't agree with her friend's statement, "Your kids are only young once", and that's why the total immersion in boards and committees. How is being on every committee or board being involved with your kids? You're actually interacting with other adults not your kids. 

I made this mistake with my older two. I started volunteering in my kid's classroom once a week, then it turned into totally involvement in the PTA to the point where I stopped volunteering in their classroom because I was at the school ALL THE TIME. I was never interacting with my kids. I was at meetings or setting up events with the adults. Even doing stuff at home, (I was in charge of T-shirts and Boxtops, lol, and PTA secretary). When my 3rd child started elementary, I made the firm boundary to only volunteer where my son actually sees me and I can help him directly. That's in the classroom and he loves seeing me there. Yesterday I was in the computer lab, helping out his class with their California Mission projects. I also like the one on one relationship with his teacher. 

Do you think your kids are going to remember or care how many committee and boards your wife is on?


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## phillybeffandswiss

Exactly.

There's "time" and then there is "quality time." While we could argue all day where it applies, the statement "Quality over quantity" applies in your marriage and with your kids.


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## phillybeffandswiss

ZDog377 said:


> Not that this makes it right, but I believe her and I had a communication on this. She felt that being at the baseball games and things like that were doing stuff together.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, you are scared of trying something new and WANT to believe her. 

I think you should go back and read the beginning of this thread. I want you to notice where it is now and the huge SHIFT from the beginning. It's why I refused to post early on.


----------



## soccermom2three

I'm a sports mom so I agree with your wife that going to games and watching the kids play is doing stuff together. When we go to soccer tournaments, between games we hang out together, go to lunch, etc. It's the time spent on the committees and boards that takes away from the family. That's why I limit myself to one volunteering thing at a time.


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## phillybeffandswiss

While I agree, it is not completely accurate. There is a difference and expecting hang out time with kids to count when he has specified they need "us time" is disingenuous by her.


----------



## farsidejunky

phillybeffandswiss said:


> While I agree, it is not completely accurate. There is a difference and expecting hang out time with kids to count when he has specified they need "us time" is disingenuous by her.


Maybe. Or maybe she is so oblivious to doing her own thing, without input from him, that she doesn't realize what it is doing.

Not every situation is nefarious.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## anonmd

She will spend as much time with you as you want, as long as it includes the kids. You are speaking two different languages.


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## phillybeffandswiss

farsidejunky said:


> Maybe. Or maybe she is so oblivious to doing her own thing, without input from him, that she doesn't realize what it is doing.
> 
> Not every situation is nefarious.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


 Or maybe she knows exactly what she is doing. Not every situation needs to be marginalized.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> Maybe. Or maybe she is so oblivious to doing her own thing, without input from him, that she doesn't realize what it is doing.
> 
> Not every situation is nefarious.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk





phillybeffandswiss said:


> Or maybe she knows exactly what she is doing. Not every situation needs to be marginalized.


This is why it is wise to fully assess a situation and to do it accurately because one will dictate one approach and the other another approach. It pays to take the time to assess it right.

It is also the reason why it is wise to allow her to feel and see the affect of her behavioral choices. Shielding her from that does not allow her a fair shot at responding to it. It would not serve her to shield her from it.


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## Lila

@ZDog377, if for most of the year you're gone M-F for work, why can't your wife contain her volunteer work and kids activities to just M-F as well?


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> @farsidejunky, I told her some of how I was feeling this morning. I know showing and telling are two different things, but *I told her things are going to change until she shows me that I'm a priority to her.* I told her that means one on one time and things like that.
> 
> Not that this makes it right, but I believe her and I had a communication on this. She felt that being at the baseball games and things like that were doing stuff together.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is going to inspire genuine enthusiasm for sex in her?


----------



## ZDog377

Lila said:


> @ZDog377, if for most of the year you're gone M-F for work, why can't your wife contain her volunteer work and kids activities to just M-F as well?


Right now, baseball games for the oldest are Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday. Either 6-8 or 8-10. Don't forget practice as well. She will contain the volunteering to the week usually, except you get the "I need to put 300 funraiser packets together this weekend" every now and then.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Lila said:


> @ZDog377, if for most of the year you're gone M-F for work, why can't your wife contain her volunteer work and kids activities to just M-F as well?


I'm glad you brought this up again. I was rereading the beginning and it was lost in one of TAM's infamous take sides arguments. Sports are extremely hard though, as games are mostly on Saturdays and Sundays for his children's age groups.


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> This is going to inspire genuine enthusiasm for sex in her?


Like I've tried telling her, I'm almost past the having sex part. I can't enjoy it if she can't, so what's the use. I want the hug and the kiss from her without feeling like its an inconvenience. Those things are the ones I miss. Or just laying in bed and talking about stuff we want to do to the house without her falling asleep. 

Does that part make any sense?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lila

ZDog377 said:


> Right now, baseball games for the oldest are Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday. Either 6-8 or 8-10. Don't forget practice as well. She will contain the volunteering to the week usually, except you get the "I need to put 300 funraiser packets together this weekend" every now and then.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I also have a 10 year who plays baseball and know the time commitment involved so I understand the weekend games well. Aside from the weekend bb games, is there anything else that she does on the weekends, when you're home? 

I'll be honest, aside from her volunteering you for concession stand duty and asking for help stuffing packets, as long as she keeps her volunter duties to M-F, then I don't see an issue. Now, if she's encroaching on weekends, that's a big problem because this is when you're guaranteed to be home.


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## farsidejunky

There's nothing wrong with putting her on notice, as long as it's backed by action. 

Putting her on notice followed by putting her on notice again, and again, and again... well, you get the picture.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## ZDog377

Lila said:


> I also have a 10 year who plays baseball and know the time commitment involved so I understand the weekend games well. Aside from the weekend bb games, is there anything else that she does on the weekends, when you're home?
> 
> I'll be honest, aside from her volunteering you for concession stand duty and asking for help stuffing packets, as long as she keeps her volunter duties to M-F, then I don't see an issue. Now, if she's encroaching on weekends, that's a big problem because this is when you're guaranteed to be home.


Probably 75% of the time she keeps it M-F. She has a work training coming up on a Saturday because I would be home and we could save on a babysitter. If they have PTO meetings she will try and make them for a weekend night sometimes so she doesn't have to take the kids. 

We talked about this todsy during my layover and she is confused as to why I don't want to volunteer if I had an at home job. She also said the reason she volunteers so much that it gives her validation/appreciation from people. I asked her I'd that meant she felt like she wasn't getting enough at home. Her response was "I didn't say that....."

I know I'm not a kid anymore, but everybody enjoys a pat on the behind now and then. I've noticed a difference in how much I get done even if she brings me out a drink when I'm cutting grass and says how nice it looks. I'm not asking for her to take a page out in the paper every time I do something.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

Yep, there it is.... She is volunteering for ego kibbles. Forget that she isnt keeping this house clean for the kids, or keeping her finances straight for her family or not being wasteful with her degrees or leaving her husband sex and emotionally starved, its all about the ego kibbles.

Nailed that one.


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## phillybeffandswiss

So, ZDOG, I feel like we are goose-steeping around a big issue. What worries you in your marriage? Are you not all in or is she not all in? I ask because you shoot down a certain suggestion every time it is raised, even if it might help make things better.


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## MEM2020

Good chance she gets too much validation from you. Such that it has little impact. 

Bigger issue is this. The upside of outside validation is so big to her - that it far outweighs the downside of ignoring home responsibilities. 

This stuff mostly triangulates pretty well because - she feels comfortable signing you up for stuff without talking to you first. 

You talk 3 times a day - which in my view is too much - but that's your call. Despite near constant contact - she signs you up without asking. 

That isn't a partnership. It's a boss/subordinate model. 






ZDog377 said:


> Probably 75% of the time she keeps it M-F. She has a work training coming up on a Saturday because I would be home and we could save on a babysitter. If they have PTO meetings she will try and make them for a weekend night sometimes so she doesn't have to take the kids.
> 
> We talked about this todsy during my layover and she is confused as to why I don't want to volunteer if I had an at home job. She also said the reason she volunteers so much that it gives her validation/appreciation from people. I asked her I'd that meant she felt like she wasn't getting enough at home. Her response was "I didn't say that....."
> 
> I know I'm not a kid anymore, but everybody enjoys a pat on the behind now and then. I've noticed a difference in how much I get done even if she brings me out a drink when I'm cutting grass and says how nice it looks. I'm not asking for her to take a page out in the paper every time I do something.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

phillybeffandswiss said:


> So, ZDOG, I feel like we are goose-steeping around a big issue. What worries you in your marriage? Are you not all in or is she not all in? I ask because you shoot down a certain suggestion every time it is raised, even if it might help make things better.


What suggestion is that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ZDog377

MEM11363 said:


> Good chance she gets too much validation from you. Such that it has little impact.
> 
> Bigger issue is this. The upside of outside validation is so big to her - that it far outweighs the downside of ignoring home responsibilities.
> 
> This stuff mostly triangulates pretty well because - she feels comfortable signing you up for stuff without talking to you first.
> 
> You talk 3 times a day - which in my view is too much - but that's your call. Despite near constant contact - she signs you up without asking.
> 
> That isn't a partnership. It's a boss/subordinate model.


What did she sign me up for without asking?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Duguesclin

ZDOG, if you were supportive with your wife, don't you think her mood towards you would change? Being combative against her is not going to get where you want to be.

Laying down with you in bed and talking sounds probably very boring to her. She is an extrovert and you are an introvert. This is a classic conflict.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

Duguesclin said:


> ZDOG, if you were supportive with your wife, don't you think her mood towards you would change? Being combative against her is not going to get where you want to be.
> 
> Laying down with you in bed and talking sounds probably very boring to her. She is an extrovert and you are an introvert. This is a classic conflict.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So I'm just supposed to tell her to volunteer as much as she esnts and to put the kids in as many sports as she can?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Duguesclin

I am not saying that. But why your priorities are more important than hers?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

Duguesclin said:


> I am not saying that. But why your priorities are more important than hers?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wouldn't say wanting to spend time with my wife is a priority, I would say its more of a need. Its something that has to happen in a marriage. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anonmd

@Duguesclin, has @jld ever totally ignored your priorities for say, a year? Not a little bit, not quite a bit, but put you last?


----------



## Duguesclin

ZDog377 said:


> I wouldn't say wanting to spend time with my wife is a priority, I would say its more of a need. Its something that has to happen in a marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Her needs are to be with other people. 

You have needs and she has needs as well. Unfortunately they can be in conflict. Recognizing her needs can go a long way in getting closer with your wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Duguesclin

anonmd said:


> @Duguesclin, has @jld ever totally ignored your priorities for say, a year? Not a little bit, not quite a bit, but put you last?


If I were only focused on my unmet needs, I am sure they would be totally ignored.

Listening is a big part of getting closer with your wife. Acknowledging her needs goes a long way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Zdog, my H is my best friend. I LOVE spending one on one time with him. He gets told he is handsome everyday. We kiss, hug and snuggle every day. Somedays we talk all throughout the day and other times maybe just once. We think, dream, plan together. We share household duties. We have each others back and we listen to each other AND hold each other accountable. Our relationship is in balance and fun. It hasn't always been that way. We went through a VERY rough time between 2010 to 2014. But we worked hard to pull out of that bad season in our relationship and we did it together. I led the reconcilliation, but he caught up fast and passed me as leader. Now he is leading to farm life for us. We've come a long way together.... Its why I can see the deep lack of effort on your wifes side. She needs to be taking this seriously and joining your effort to fix this. You cannot carry the whole relationship. And shouldn't have to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anonmd

Duguesclin said:


> If I were only focused on my unmet needs, I am sure they would be totally ignored.
> 
> Listening is a big part of getting closer with your wife. Acknowledging her needs goes a long way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Try listening to the OP.


----------



## turnera

Duguesclin said:


> Her needs are to be with other people.
> 
> You have needs and she has needs as well. Unfortunately they can be in conflict. Recognizing her needs can go a long way in getting closer with your wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So, Dug, how do you propose to get her to care for her FAMILY as much as her other activities that feed her ego?


----------



## ZDog377

I just want to thank everybody for their time and thoughts in this thread. After conversations with her and the oldest yesterday and this morning, I don't see things ever changing. All the oldest was complaining about yesterday was that I don't spend enough time with him and that I'm too hard on him. She didn't say anything to stick up for me or anything like that. Her and I talked this morning and I asked her if it bothered her that I can't take much more of what's going on. Her response was "if it's that bad, go ahead and leave".........

I'm probably going to spend this week getting my stuff in order so I can have an initial consultation with a divorce attorney some time in the next couple weeks.....


----------



## anonmd

Where is the oldest ones father?


----------



## Mr.StrongMan

ZDog377 said:


> We've been running into a problem since our third child was born. We have 3 children, 9 years old, 3 years old and soon to be 1 year old.
> 
> I try and be intimate, however when it gets outside of holding hands in the car she pushes me away because she says she is "touched out". I'm usually not home during the week because I travel for work. On the weekends I'll try and come up behind her when she's cooking or just try and kiss her when she's sitting on the couch. I'm out of ideas for what to do......


ZDog377 do I ever feel your pain!
ZDog377 I have been searching your thread. I couldn't find what led to your decision to D.You can PM me if you want.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I sure hate its coming to that. She is quite calloused.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

anonmd said:


> Where is the oldest ones father?


He's not in the picture


----------



## Duguesclin

turnera said:


> So, Dug, how do you propose to get her to care for her FAMILY as much as her other activities that feed her ego?


You have it backwards, Turnera. She is the one devoted to her family. Zdog is the one that needs his ego stroked. You and many others are not helping him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Duguesclin

Zdog, why did you bother getting married if you can't handle the responsibility of a family?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

Duguesclin said:


> Zdog, why did you bother getting married if you can't handle the responsibility of a family?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Excuse me? Where did I say I can't handle it? Its almost eight years later too. People change......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Duguesclin

ZDog377 said:


> Excuse me? Where did I say I can't handle it? Its almost eight years later too. People change......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why are you throwing in the towel? 
Your refusal to see where your wife is coming from is leading you to this unfortunate decision.

Once you divorce, do you plan to be in another relationship or are you done?

If you plan on another relationship, why would you think it would end differently?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

Duguesclin said:


> Why are you throwing in the towel?
> Your refusal to see where your wife is coming from is leading you to this unfortunate decision.
> 
> Once you divorce, do you plan to be in another relationship or are you done?
> 
> If you plan on another relationship, why would you think it would end differently?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Let's equate the situation to beating your head off a wall. You can only do it so many times before you give yourself a concussion.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

Duguesclin said:


> Why are you throwing in the towel?
> Your refusal to see where your wife is coming from is leading you to this unfortunate decision.
> 
> Once you divorce, do you plan to be in another relationship or are you done?
> 
> If you plan on another relationship, why would you think it would end differently?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm a reasonable man.....why don't you tell me your view of what's wrong and what you think a solution is?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marc878

I've seen this before. Kids involved in all kinds of activities does not equate to family time.

The oldest is a spoiled brat who thinks the world revolves around him.

If your wife's biggest needs are to be around other people and the posts do reflect that you need to either accept the marriage as it is or move on. 

There is no perfect marriage or person. Everyone has some issues. However, if your job that feeds and takes care of the family keeps you away most will schedule around that to have a complete family time when you are there. I've been there and know how it should work.

Why bust your azz for nothing in return?


----------



## Duguesclin

ZDog377 said:


> I'm a reasonable man.....why don't you tell me your view of what's wrong and what you think a solution is?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do not think you have ever been committed to this marriage. When I read the student debt that your wife has, how a responsible father can just ignore it?

If you believed that you will be married forever, the responsible thing to do would be to pay off that debt. Because otherwise all your assets, when you die, will go to pay it off.

if you divorce, who do you think will take care of your wife when she is old and has no money? Your kids!

I sense that you have not been engaged with your family. 

You could show interest in what your wife is doing, ask her questions, help her, engage with her. Instead you want to give ultimatums and control her. No wonder she is rejecting you.

I am not saying your wife is right or that she is not doing too much with her volunteer work. What I am saying is that you need to work with her, not coerce her in doing things you want her to do for you.

It should be about your kids, and not about you.


----------



## Marc878

Duguesclin said:


> It should be about your kids, and not about you.


Hmmmm, I see it as to much about the kids and H is just a checkbook.


----------



## ZDog377

Duguesclin said:


> I do not think you have ever been committed to this marriage. When I read the student debt that your wife has, how a responsible father can just ignore it?
> 
> If you believed that you will be married forever, the responsible thing to do would be to pay off that debt. Because otherwise all your assets, when you die, will go to pay it off.
> 
> if you divorce, who do you think will take care of your wife when she is old and has no money? Your kids!
> 
> I sense that you have not been engaged with your family.
> 
> You could show interest in what your wife is doing, ask her questions, help her, engage with her. Instead you want to give ultimatums and control her. No wonder she is rejecting you.
> 
> I am not saying your wife is right or that she is not doing too much with her volunteer work. What I am saying is that you need to work with her, not coerce her in doing things you want her to do for you.
> 
> It should be about your kids, and not about you.


It was debt that was created before we for married. If I could make a dent in it, I would consider it. Right now what I can pay doesn't even cover interest. So I would see no decrease in the debt. Also, I wouldn't expect her to pay my loans.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ABHale

Duguesclin said:


> Zdog, why did you bother getting married if you can't handle the responsibility of a family?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Why don't you take your BS somewhere else. You are so self righteous I bet you walk on water.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ABHale

Hey Z, I have read your thread this morning. I see you at a point I was at 12 years ago in my marriage. My wife finally had the o'crap moment about two years ago. She admitted the she had taking our marriage and myself for granted. But as the saying goes to little to late. I am no longer in love with my wife, still care about her and her well being but that is it. We have 4 more years and our yongest will be out of high school. My wife still will not give up the volunteer work. 

Do what is best for you and the kids. 

Later man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ABHale

I have to say she has been trying to fix things, loving on me and everything else sence the o'crap moment. I am just not taking it in kind hence the to little to late.

And yes, I have told her exactly how I am feeling and view where our marriage is and where it is going. She in turn tells me she will fight to make it work. We will see how it turns out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Dug,

Your work travel is just like Zdogs yes? 
I skipped the middle of the thread - so this is a sincere question.

Were you defending Zdog against all the crap folks threw at him for just 'dropping by' on the weekends? 





Duguesclin said:


> I do not think you have ever been committed to this marriage. When I read the student debt that your wife has, how a responsible father can just ignore it?
> 
> If you believed that you will be married forever, the responsible thing to do would be to pay off that debt. Because otherwise all your assets, when you die, will go to pay it off.
> 
> if you divorce, who do you think will take care of your wife when she is old and has no money? Your kids!
> 
> I sense that you have not been engaged with your family.
> 
> You could show interest in what your wife is doing, ask her questions, help her, engage with her. Instead you want to give ultimatums and control her. No wonder she is rejecting you.
> 
> I am not saying your wife is right or that she is not doing too much with her volunteer work. What I am saying is that you need to work with her, not coerce her in doing things you want her to do for you.
> 
> It should be about your kids, and not about you.


----------



## MEM2020

Zdog,

We got married and I figured out how to make the single income model work - for one, two and then three kids. 

When the kids were 10,6 and 4 M2 decided she was going to get more and more involved in this theater group. Not only was it 'volunteer' work, but it was a high mileage volunteer gig with some other costs. 

I finally said:

babe, you are in the process of turning this into a full time job - that is costing us over $1,000 a year. We aren't rich enough for me to hire a maid to backfill for a non existent salary. If this is the life style you require - you need to replace me with a higher income husband. And soon that won't be an option anymore. Because I am not ok with a wife who is acting without consideration for the impact of her choices on the rest of us.





ZDog377 said:


> It was debt that was created before we for married. If I could make a dent in it, I would consider it. Right now what I can pay doesn't even cover interest. So I would see no decrease in the debt. Also, I wouldn't expect her to pay my loans.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

So your wife borrowed money to get an expensive degree and then completely abandoned her responsibilities regarding the lenders?

She has time to be the president of the PTA - but no time to even try and figure out her student loans? 

There is a deep rooted 'me me me' theme to the behavior you describe.
Not yours - hers. 







ZDog377 said:


> It was debt that was created before we for married. If I could make a dent in it, I would consider it. Right now what I can pay doesn't even cover interest. So I would see no decrease in the debt. Also, I wouldn't expect her to pay my loans.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anonmd

Well, she did marry two guys>


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*

I will say this. What @Duguesclin said has some merit. @ZDog377 married this woman knowing (or at least I assume so) she had $100K in student debt. He had to know that would result in a reckoning, or he was not adequately considering the situation.

However, the fact that his wife is content to do zilch about it, and hide in the ego kibbles of volunteerism (and hiding is EXACTLY what it is), certainly speaks to her selfishness.

The fact that part is being overtly ignored by Dug I find particularly disappointing. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## ZDog377

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



farsidejunky said:


> I will say this. What @Duguesclin said has some merit. @ZDog377 married this woman knowing (or at least I assume so) she had $100K in student debt. He had to know that would result in a reckoning, or he was not adequately considering the situation.
> 
> However, the fact that his wife is content to do zilch about it, and hide in the ego kibbles of volunteerism (and hiding is EXACTLY what it is), certainly speaks to her selfishness.
> 
> The fact that part is being overtly ignored by Dug I find particularly disappointing.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


She was paying on them when she was working back when we first got married. Kids came along I thought she would at least find something from home......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Working from home with three kids would be difficult.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*

Far,
I've seen this movie before. The main character is almost exclusively focused on their 'extended self'. That term is my invention but it means themself and their 'half-lings'. A half-ling is merely an entity that is half you. I guess most folks call them children. 

Folks who are near exclusively focused on themselves + their children (their extended selves) tend to be very involved parents. I won't say 'good' parents because some of the examples they set are anything but good. They are very involved parents and very un-involved partners.




farsidejunky said:


> I will say this. What @Duguesclin said has some merit. @ZDog377 married this woman knowing (or at least I assume so) she had $100K in student debt. He had to know that would result in a reckoning, or he was not adequately considering the situation.
> 
> However, the fact that his wife is content to do zilch about it, and hide in the ego kibbles of volunteerism (and hiding is EXACTLY what it is), certainly speaks to her selfishness.
> 
> The fact that part is being overtly ignored by Dug I find particularly disappointing.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ZDog377 said:


> She was paying on them when she was working back when we first got married. Kids came along I thought she would at least find something from home......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And you have allowed this why?

While it may not be important in your current marriage if it is about to end, it will certainly be important in future relationships.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## ZDog377

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



farsidejunky said:


> And you have allowed this why?
> 
> While it may not be important in your current marriage if it is about to end, it will certainly be important in future relationships.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


She was applying for jobs, but you would be surprised what they is considered an at home job. She's finally found a semi-decent one, I'm just not thrilled about how much work seems to be involved. We have looked at biting the bullet for training for a transcription type job but we just don't have the money for it right now. She's looking into a substitute teacher certification this summer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

Did you ever answer what her degree was actually in?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



MEM11363 said:


> Far,
> I've seen this movie before. The main character is almost exclusively focused on their 'extended self'. That term is my invention but it means themself and their 'half-lings'. A half-ling is merely an entity that is half you. I guess most folks call them children.
> 
> Folks who are near exclusively focused on themselves + their children (their extended selves) tend to be very involved parents. I won't say 'good' parents because some of the examples they set are anything but good. They are very involved parents and very un-involved partners.


Sure.

It normally takes drastic measures to get through, if it is even possible.

Zdog is enabling it.

"No" is incredibly effective. No softening the delivery, no explanations. Simply "no".

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## ZDog377

farsidejunky said:


> Did you ever answer what her degree was actually in?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Sorry, bachelors in child development and masters in adult education.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

So, has she become certified in your state to use those degrees in teaching?

Online teaching IS HUGE and it pays a decent amount. Also, I'm going to send you a PM so, you don't waste your time on a derail.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Guarantee she is blowing smoke up his @ss about the usability of those degrees. Thats what really tipped me off to her mindset and her reluctance to do anything about it.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



farsidejunky said:


> I will say this. What @Duguesclin said has some merit. @ZDog377 married this woman knowing (or at least I assume so) she had $100K in student debt. He had to know that would result in a reckoning, or he was not adequately considering the situation.


Or, like He and thousands of other students who get married KNOWING they have student loan debt, he believed they would whittle it down together. Sorry, I'm not going to agree with merit and marriage due to student loan debt. I'd agree if it was credit card, utilities, gambling or other types of debt. This is America, let's not pretend they don't sell degrees as the end all be all of getting higher paying jobs. So, I can see two people believing they will work the debt down in a reasonable amount of time and not worrying about any type of "reckoning."

It's this type of debt which made me push my kids to get academically sound and earn scholarships through sports and academics. If you fail you owe little to no money. If you succeed you owe little to no money.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Z, is your 9 year old in public school?


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> Z, is your 9 year old in public school?


Yes, the othee two will be when their time comes as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I got mine through tuition reimbursement. Zero debt upon graduation.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> Yes, the othee two will be when their time comes as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When she does PTO/PTA whatever its called, do the other two go with her?


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> When she does PTO/PTA whatever its called, do the other two go with her?


If its during the week, yes. She tries to schedule things when the three year old is in pre-school, but sometimes she will take both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

$1500 per course to teach undergrad courses here in semi rural West Tennessee. 1 night per week, over five weeks, four hours per night. In high demand...

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

So she can manage to work PTO/PTA with one or two kids on her hip. Interesting.

I bet she would have to work full time if yall divorce.

Plus she loses your weekend help as well as being twice divorced. She might not want to be so flippant about you leaving. It will not be a cake walk.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



Blossom Leigh said:


> So she can manage to work PTO/PTA with one or two kids on her hip. Interesting.
> 
> I bet she would have to work full time if yall divorce.


She is playing a dangerous game.

Yet, Zdog is the one that is feeling threatened.

Interesting, that.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



farsidejunky said:


> She is playing a dangerous game.
> 
> Yet, Zdog is the one that is feeling threatened.
> 
> Interesting, that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Yep... I would call her bluff. Princess wouldn't be getting that crap past me.


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*

Yes

The messed up thing is - that - she has completely deviated from the initial plan - and is simply hoping he never mentions that. 

My comments to M2 about her volunteering were simple:

Phase 1: Babe, as long as you do your bit for me and the family - I am happy to support whatever you do that feels fulfilling. 

Phase 2: Babe, if you elect not to be organized, I'm going to end up working my normal 60 hours AND doing half the housework. For one play (3-4 months) I can live with that, but only one.

Phase 3: Glad you're having fun - happy to take on more house work for now. After this play - no more.

Phase 4: Hmmm - guess you think I don't mean what I say. I never would have married you - if I'd known you thought that sole breadwinner plus half housework was fair. Won't stay married under those conditions. 

---------





farsidejunky said:


> Sure.
> 
> It normally takes drastic measures to get through, if it is even possible.
> 
> Zdog is enabling it.
> 
> "No" is incredibly effective. No softening the delivery, no explanations. Simply "no".
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Maybe I missed it as well, but did you ever answer why she can't use the degrees in her state? As someone who lives in a weird state, I know about certifications and the costs. It might be worth it to invest the money, *only if she SHOWS she is all in*, to get an online teaching job. No sense in adding more educational debt to the household. if she isn't going to participate.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> Maybe I missed it as well, but did you ever answer why she can't use the degrees in her state? As someone who lives in a weird state, I know about certifications and the costs. It might be worth it to invest the money, *only if she SHOWS she is all in*, to get an online teaching job. No sense in adding more educational debt to the household. if she isn't going to participate.


This will benefit her whether they make it or not. If they don't, she will at least have better earning power, which will help with the alimony situation.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yep, I have an expensive love in my life. Horses. They would be the equivalent of a school loan monthly. I do two things. 1. Work my @ss off to make sure they are financially secure WITHOUT impacting my family budget. I work full time, making very good money, manage our rental houses AND have my son with me directly after school at three. We watch finances closely to ensure enough slushie to make our plan happen. It can be done when the want to is big enough. My H and I share home duties OR we bring people in from time to time to help because our priority is time together, not chores. So, I'm impressed with you MEM for laying clear boundaries. These women need to be pulling their weight and keeping priorities straight. And sometimes the Husbands need to speak up and play a bit of hardball if she refuses to self manage. My H and I are working hard to move me to stay home mom or early retirement, but we are doing it by paying off debt and buying rental houses. I refuse to leave a high level of debt on my H's shoulders. I refuse to NOT self manage. I balance that desire to not leave all of that on him with increasing time with our son. We will be down to $25,000 total on three houses. Total, on everything.... Once that is gone, THEN we will move to his family farm with a modest mortgage. Our mortgage will be managed to be no more than 10% of our gross income. Finish out the additional rental houses, we are done. Both home together before the age of 50. Just don't settle is all I'm sayin'.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



farsidejunky said:


> This will benefit her whether they make it or not. If they don't, she will at least have better earning power, which will help with the alimony situation.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


 I agree, but we see how little time she has with sports, PTA, volunteering and other activities. If she isn't all in, it is more marital school debt, it benefits no one and affects him negatively if she doesn't finish and they divorce.


----------



## MEM2020

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yep, I have an expensive love in my life. Horses. They would be the equivalent of a school loan monthly. I do two things. 1. Work my @ss off to make sure they are financially secure WITHOUT impacting my family budget. I work full time, making very good money, manage our rental houses AND have my son with me directly after school at three. We watch finances closely to ensure enough slushie to make our plan happen. It can be done when the want to is big enough. My H and I share home duties OR we bring people in from time to time to help because our priority is time together, not chores. So, I'm impressed with you MEM for laying clear boundaries. These women need to be pulling their weight and keeping priorities straight. And sometimes the Husbands need to speak up and play a bit of hardball if she refuses to self manage. My H and I are working hard to move me to stay home mom or early retirement, but we are doing it by paying off debt and buying rental houses. I refuse to leave a high level of debt on my H's shoulders. I refuse to NOT self manage. I balance that desire to not leave all of that on him with increasing time with our son. We will be down to $25,000 total on three houses. Total, on everything.... Once that is gone, THEN we will move to his family farm with a modest mortgage. Our mortgage will be managed to be no more than 10% of our gross income. Finish out the additional rental houses, we are done. Both home together before the age of 50. Just don't settle is all I'm sayin'.


Blossom,
You ought teach a class on this. What you've done is called: rationally funding your passion

That's a beautiful thing. 

Zdog,
Let me try to frame this for you. My 'plan' was to marry a career woman and have at most two children. 

I'm happy how everything turned out. That said, after falling in love with M2 I accepted that I had two choices. Mostly do the stuff I liked best - and live paycheck to paycheck.

Or focus on maxing out my income, so money wouldn't be a constant stressor.

When this volunteer stuff arose, M2 adopted an unfortunate negotiating posture which was:

I've supported your career all along and now you are refusing to support me.

OK. Hmmmm. 

I attempted to point out that: 
- I did a high workload, high stress and high travel job SOLELY so she could be a SAHM and not stress about money.
- Very little of my earnings got spent on me (which was as it should be - just reinforcing the point that my job was family driven not ego kibble driven)

She attempted to prevail thru repetition. I supported you and now you won't support me.

I hate talking about divorce. Loathe the topic. Because divorce is about combat, and power. 

That said - M2 was being ragingly selfish. And my view was simple. If this is now a 'every man for himself' type marriage, I'm out. Not in 15 years when the kids are grown. RIGHT NOW.

And to tell the truth - to this day it makes me sad that M2 was so selfish. Not because she liked volunteering. But because she refused to be organized enough to actually make it all work and then turned around and tried to blame that on me.





Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Blossom Leigh

Thank you MEM. Our whole plan was born out of my passion for horses early on in my life. But I do not allow that passion to dominate my family time or money. My other passion is singing, but same thing. My family is priority, even though I could be professional in either one. 

My son takes it for granted sometimes. There are times he wants every waking moment of my time. Some days, I will spend five hours straight with him after school and the other day I found myself talking to him about "Baby, its time for me to spend time with Papa." That it's important to balance time with the people you love. He was very curious about the concept. So, its a very conscious focus here. I don't see this focus in Z's wife to make sure she has quality time with Z. 

Its been one reason why I struggled to understand her attitude earlier in the thread. I cannot imagine my H gone all week and me not have an intense desire to catch up on good time together when he gets home. That did not compute for me. But now that I've got her pegged I see through her smokescreen to protect her ego kibble supply with no regard for Z. See, Z, not only do I WANT to spend time with my H, I actively manage my time to facilitate it. My H does not have to turn back flips to get scraps of time from me. 

But, see I don't need the external ego kibbles your wife needs. So I dont spend all my time in ego kibble land because of that. If I needed those ego kibbles I would be singing all the time (and have had offers) because when I sing, I get standing ovations at almost every single song. Instead, I'm emotionally free to be present, available by intention WITHOUT being a door mat or smothering. And I expect quality behavior when we are together. When he takes me for granted which is rare, I move in the opposite direction, opening enough space for him to miss me. And I do it silently without fanfare or cruelty. The only time I have had to make a bold stand was when he was abusive. Even then my heart and mind were focus on the best for him and us.

So, I started sharing all of this about my own life to give you a peek into the almost complete opposite attitude of what you are living with. Sometimes when you've been in a situation long enough it helps to know what is possible through hearing someone else's story.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

Blossom,

So - here's the one thing that gives me pause in these situations. 

I have a close family member who recently ended a 15+ year marriage. 

She had this huge chip on her shoulder because her H spent very little time with her. 

But - she was NOT good company. Way too negative, made a big deal out of small things. I actually didn't blame him.

This is why I never ask posters if they are good companions, good at non sexual affection, good at sex. And I never will.

Because the brutal truth is - the ONLY thing that matters in those areas is what your PARTNER thinks/feels. 

If you ask me: are you a good marital companion - my sole response is that: M2 clearly and continuously craves my company. And that is my sole measure of such a thing. 

And in reverse - it's true that I absolutely crave her company. 

So - I am conflicted in these situations. While I believe your partner should prioritize you. I truly don't want someone spending time with me because they said 'I do' 25 years ago. Want them to spend time with me because they LIKE doing so. 

----------
Sad thing is that - many folks lose their Playfullness when they transition to adult hood. It's so powerful. 





Blossom Leigh said:


> Thank you MEM. Our whole plan was born out of my passion for horses early on in my life. But I do not allow that passion to dominate my family time or money. My other passion is singing, but same thing. My family is priority, even though I could be professional in either one.
> 
> My son takes it for granted sometimes. There are times he wants every waking moment of my time. Some days, I will spend five hours straight with him after school and the other day I found myself talking to him about "Baby, its time for me to spend time with Papa." That it's important to balance time with the people you love. He was very curious about the concept. So, its a very conscious focus here. I don't see this focus in Z's wife to make sure she has quality time with Z.
> 
> Its been one reason why I struggled to understand her attitude earlier in the thread. I cannot imagine my H gone all week and me not have an intense desire to catch up on good time together when he gets home. That did not compute for me. But now that I've got her pegged I see through her smokescreen to protect her ego kibble supply with no regard for Z. See, Z, not only do I WANT to spend time with my H, I actively manage my time to facilitate it. My H does not have to turn back flips to get scraps of time from me.
> 
> But, see I don't need the external ego kibbles your wife needs. So I dont spend all my time in ego kibble land because of that. If I needed those ego kibbles I would be singing all the time (and have had offers) because when I sing, I get standing ovations at almost every single song. Instead, I'm emotionally free to be present, available by intention WITHOUT being a door mat or smothering. And I expect quality behavior when we are together. When he takes me for granted which is rare, I move in the opposite direction, opening enough space for him to miss me. And I do it silently without fanfare or cruelty. The only time I have had to make a bold stand was when he was abusive. Even then my heart and mind were focus on the best for him and us.
> 
> So, I started sharing all of this about my own life to give you a peek into the almost complete opposite attitude of what you are living with. Sometimes when you've been in a situation long enough it helps to know what is possible through hearing someone else's story.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

@MEM11363 without question we need to bring our best and I agree, playfulness is definitely part of that. One thing I do ALL THE TIME is make my family laugh. It doesn't come out here much because we are always discussing such serious topics, but I keep my H and son in stitches because I am SILLY and laugh easily. Its one of the reasons my son seeks me out, because I am hilarity to him and he loves to laugh. My H is more serious than I am, so by the time he gets to me he appreciates the light hearted, laid back style I have. BUT he also loves the racy side of me. So, not only do I think couples need to have fun, they need to be able to maintain a bit of an edge. The ONLY way you can do that is to pay attention, stay engaged, focus on the positives, have a grateful attitude and not put up with maltreatment, while intentionally having FUN. Chronic foul behavior wrecks the house. If there is upset, state your peace, lets resolve it and move on and resume the fun. Be particular without being critical, be quick to apologize when at fault, all those things we all understand to make good relationships. When someone is chronically checked out it's like trying to drive a car on a flat tire, makes everyone in the car miserable. Fix the tire.... it smooths out the ride for everyone.


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## MEM2020

That is a beautiful formula. Truly.

Humor plus playfulness plus edge - has a magic to it - like nothing else. 

You find someone has those traits and is also responsible - and skilled WRT the mechanics of life - you can forgive almost any 'difficult' traits they may have.   




Blossom Leigh said:


> @MEM11363 without question we need to bring our best and I agree, playfulness is definitely part of that. One thing I do ALL THE TIME is make my family laugh. It doesn't come out here much because we are always discussing such serious topics, but I keep my H and son in stitches because I am SILLY and laugh easily. Its one of the reasons my son seeks me out, because I am hilarity to him and he loves to laugh. My H is more serious than I am, so by the time he gets to me he appreciates the light hearted, laid back style I have. BUT he also loves the racy side of me. So, not only do I think couples need to have fun, they need to be able to maintain a bit of an edge. The ONLY way you can do that is to pay attention, stay engaged, focus on the positives, have a grateful attitude and not put up with maltreatment, while intentionally having FUN. Chronic foul behavior wrecks the house. If there is upset, state your peace, lets resolve it and move on and resume the fun. Be particular without being critical, be quick to apologize when at fault, all those things we all understand to make good relationships. When someone is chronically checked out it's like trying to drive a car on a flat tire, makes everyone in the car miserable. Fix the tire.... it smooths out the ride for everyone.


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## Blossom Leigh

Agree... XFactor

Wrapped up with compassion and humility and its Christmas morning everyday.


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## ZDog377

I feel that I have a good sense of humor, but different from hers. We do laugh a lot, but it is usually due to things the kids do/say. 

Now, I spent a decent amount of time last night with our oldest and also doing things for her. Her mood seems to be better today. I am taking time for myself tonight through, I'm going to a concert with my sister tonight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> I feel that I have a good sense of humor, but different from hers. We do laugh a lot, but it is usually due to things the kids do/say.
> 
> Now, I spent a decent amount of time last night with our oldest and also doing things for her. Her mood seems to be better today. I am taking time for myself tonight through, I'm going to a concert with my sister tonight.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unless you are being a jerk to her, you are not responsible for her mood. She seems petulant. Don't try to influence her mood. Just be a good man with standards and leave her mood to her.
And stop catering to the boy. Yes, he needs your time and attention, but he sounds demanding. A demanding attitude in a child should never be catered to. It only encourages such a distasteful attitude.


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## Blossom Leigh

I agree, if she cannot systain her own productive mood, you cannot sustain it for her long term.


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## Duguesclin

ZDog377 said:


> I feel that I have a good sense of humor, but different from hers. We do laugh a lot, but it is usually due to things the kids do/say.
> 
> *Now, I spent a decent amount of time last night with our oldest and also doing things for her. Her mood seems to be better today.* I am taking time for myself tonight through, I'm going to a concert with my sister tonight.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am not surprised.


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## ZDog377

Duguesclin said:


> I am not surprised.


Once again though, no time spent with each other or on ourselves.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Duguesclin

MEM11363 said:


> Dug,
> 
> Your work travel is just like Zdogs yes?
> I skipped the middle of the thread - so this is a sincere question.
> 
> Were you defending Zdog against all the crap folks threw at him for just 'dropping by' on the weekends?


MEM, men do not need to be defended. We are big enough to make our own decisions.

Regarding Zdog's travel, I do not think it is a problem. He is not the only one in this situation. I just came back yesterday from 2 weeks in South America and I am leaving tomorrow to return on Friday. My wife and my kids look forward to my return each time. Why do you think that is?

Zdog's attitude is the issue. He demands to receive. He will be more successful if he gives without thinking about receiving. By giving he will get much more in return.

And the giving I am talking about is not doing what he likes to do. It is doing what his wife and kids really like him to do. He would be wise to support his wife with her volunteer work. I am not saying accepting necessarily the amount of time she spends on it. But at least he needs to acknowledge what she is doing has value.

Zdog's wife may not be the best money manager but she does seem to be a very good mom. He would be wise to acknowledge that.


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## Duguesclin

ZDog377 said:


> Once again though, no time spent with each other or on ourselves.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is going to come. As her mood improves it is going to get better. 

You are the decisive factor on her mood. You have a lot of power. Use it wisely.


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## ZDog377

Duguesclin said:


> It is going to come. As her mood improves it is going to get better.
> 
> You are the decisive factor on her mood. You have a lot of power. Use it wisely.


So I devote 24/7 of my weekends doing stuff for her and the kids. I'm miserable then because I can't get stuff done for myself. Its a lose/lose situation.......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Duguesclin

ZDog377 said:


> So I devote 24/7 of my weekends doing stuff for her and the kids. I'm miserable then because I can't get stuff done for myself. Its a lose/lose situation.......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You do stuff for yourself during the week when you are traveling.


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## turnera

Really? How does that happen?


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## ZDog377

Duguesclin said:


> You do stuff for yourself during the week when you are traveling.


What about projects at home? Say I want to go fishing or shooting?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> What about projects at home? Say I want to go fishing or shooting?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You take the kids with you. My husband's hobbies with the kids are hunting and shooting. They started shooting pretty young and their first hunt, without a rifle, was at 12. They learned how to gut and skin a deer pretty early. My 22 yo daughter can skin a deer without a nick.


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## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> You take the kids with you. My husband's hobbies with the kids are hunting and shooting. They started shooting pretty young and their first hunt, without a rifle, was at 12. They learned how to gut and skin a deer pretty early. My 22 yo daughter can skin a deer without a nick.


Sorry, I was playing devil's advocate to Dug. Obviously the shooting is not 100% a family sport yet. The oldest doesn't have the patience for hunting yet either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia

I hope you do take them shooting with you when they are a bit older. Starting them out with a bb gun is good. All of my children know how to handle a firearm safely and how to load and shoot various types of rifles and handguns.


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## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> I hope you do take them shooting with you when they are a bit older. Starting them out with a bb gun is good. All of my children know how to handle a firearm safely and how to load and shoot various types of rifles and handguns.


The oldest has already went with me, he turns it into a competition after five minutes then is bored after a half hour. He's been shooting my 22 so far pretty well
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happy as a clam

Duguesclin said:


> You do stuff for yourself during the week when you are traveling.


Yeah, like busting his a$$ working all week long to earn a big fat paycheck for his ungrateful, uncharitable wife. Where exactly does "doing stuff for himself" fit in there? You mean eating three lousy meals per day alone?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

MEM11363 said:


> That is a beautiful formula. Truly.
> 
> Humor plus playfulness plus edge - has a magic to it - like nothing else.
> 
> You find someone has those traits and is also responsible - and skilled WRT the mechanics of life - you can forgive almost any 'difficult' traits they may have.


ROFL 

It's not about the difficult traits one has, it's about the difficult and generally hidden traits the partner may have...


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## lifeistooshort

I don't get why so many are dumping on Dug. The TAM gallery is quite fond of telling betrayed husbands that they should listen because so many have been where they are, and not only has Dug been where OP is but he's there right now. From what I can see he's managing it pretty successfully if even his wife jld is on here saying OP doesn't need to quit his job.

I don't think I could handle a husband who was gone all the time, but they've managed it.

So this leaves me to believe it's not really about who's been there, it's about towing the TAM party line that husbands need only bring home a paycheck and then need to be rewarded with sex thanks to the tremendous gratitude.

Some of us know relationships don't work like that and are far more complicated.

As far as the student debt, I'm less than impressed with both of them. First, it was ridiculous for her to run up $100,000 of student debt for a degree in adult education; very poor ROI there. But she's hardly the only one to rack up a ridiculous amount of debt for a degree that doesn't pay that much. Second, ZDog still views this as "her" debt, so in the back of his mind clearly they're not completely partners. As the so called financially responsible one he should've sat down with her years ago and come up with a plan to attack it, but he doesn't see it as his issue. Not a partnership attitude. 

I happen to think the amount of volunteering she's doing is very irresponsible; I see this at my kids schools. You have all these moms who volunteer all these hours doing what paid teachers do except eventually teachers have paid retirement and they have nothing. If she's going to do all this volunteering she needs to take a paid position and start attacking those loans.

If they really were a team this would be viewed as team debt; when my husband lost his job the first thing I did was write a check for $11,000 to pay off his car (for our own reasons we have separate finances). It made no sense to keep accruing interest on it, but we plan our lifestyle around what we have coming in. And he's not even home raising my kids, but we are partners. That's what partners do.

So Zdog, you can take TAM's advice and get divorced (and maybe the threat of it will strong arm your wife into tolerating some sex with you....what a turn on that will be) and pay a bunch of cs/alimony and then on top of it pay for your own apartment somewhere. I can't imagine how you'll afford that since you can't afford to make any kind of dent in your wife's student loans (your WIFE.....your PARTNER.....who's spent the years home raising your kids) while maintaining one residence. And your travel issue is never going to go away, even if you find a new gf who you'll likely be too broke to do much for unless you stiff your kids.

So maybe you'd be wise to have an open mind to what Dug has to say. He's right where you want to be.


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## Duguesclin

ZDog377 said:


> What about projects at home? Say I want to go fishing or shooting?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Before I got married, I was an avid cyclist (60 to 100 miles per day during the weekend) and flew planes and gliders. However I knew when I got married that these activities that I loved needed to take a pause if I wanted a successful marriage and family life. I had to wait until my kids were old enough and showed interest to resume them.

My daughter was more interested in ballet than cycling so I actually did ballet with her. It opened my eyes to something new. I would have never done it without her, but I am glad I did.

My oldest son, when he was of age to start cycling, was diagnosed with leukemia. He almost died. So the focus was to be with him in the hospital.

It is only in the past year and a half that I have able to take the bicycle again. I do it with 2 of my middle sons. It is a great feeling.

I probably won't take up flying again. I have 5 kids to put through college. It takes money to fly, so it will not happen.

When you decide to have a family, priorities change. You are not the priority, Zdog. Your family is.


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## Duguesclin

happy as a clam said:


> Yeah, like busting his a$$ working all week long to earn a big fat paycheck for his ungrateful, uncharitable wife. Where exactly does "doing stuff for himself" fit in there? You mean eating three lousy meals per day alone?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


His paycheck is obviously not that fat because he cannot pay off his wife's student loans.

I do not think his wife is the ungrateful one. He eats his meals in peace everyday. He does not have a 2 and 4 year old on him all the time.


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## lifeistooshort

Duguesclin said:


> *His paycheck is obviously not that fat because he cannot pay off his wife's student loans.*
> 
> I do not think his wife is the ungrateful one. He eats his meals in peace everyday. He does not have a 2 and 4 year old on him all the time.


This.


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## ZDog377

lifeistooshort said:


> This.


She created the debt before we were married. If I lost my job, I wouldn't expect her to pay my loans. I wouldn't be out volunteering instead of working. I have no problem paying something on it a month, but I don't have enough to cover the interest. So why would I pay on something I'll never see a return on? 

She handles cooking, the kids, and some laundry during the week. Picture needs hung.....me. Car is acting funny.....me. Kids have to go to urgent care.....me paying for it. All I have had since we got married were traveling jobs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort

ZDog377 said:


> She created the debt before we were married. If I lost my job, I wouldn't expect her to pay my loans. I wouldn't be out volunteering instead of working. I have no problem paying something on it a month, but I don't have enough to cover the interest. So why would I pay on something I'll never see a return on?
> 
> She handles cooking, the kids, and some laundry during the week. Picture needs hung.....me. Car is acting funny.....me. Kids have to go to urgent care.....me paying for it. All I have had since we got married were traveling jobs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This speaks volumes about how you view your wife and marriage 

You're not a team and never were.... from this perspective it's easy to see why you're in the position you're in. 

Before you said you couldn't afford it, now you're saying you just don't think it's your problem. 

She's a paid employee and right now you don't feel that you're getting what you're paying for.

Dug is right. ... your kids will ultimately pay for this when she needs help.

See my comments in a previous post regarding her volunteering. 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happy as a clam

Duguesclin said:


> His paycheck is obviously not that fat because he cannot pay off his wife's student loans.


Ok... But why should HE pay off his wife's student loans?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happy as a clam

Z just explained that she created the debt (student loans) before they were married. Why on earth should he assume HER debt, especially when she is a sub-par wife??

Guess what, Z? In most (if not all) states, debt accumulated before the marriage belongs to the individual. She'll be paying on those loans until she goes to the grave. Unlike credit card debt, you CANNOT escape paying off your student loan debt. Even bankruptcy won't erase it. No way the Feds and Uncle Sam are getting the stiff...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

They have royally screwed our education system by allowing such predatory lending. I'm sorry she was fleece into believing the bullshyte.


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## john117

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*

Dug conveniently "forgets" that he's got a partner in the 1%, maybe 0.1% of partners  in terms of a lot of attributes that the 98% partners - and especially the OTHER 1% partners on the opposite side of the bell curve - don't have in abundance.

(Forgets in quotes... Meaning that dealing with a wench of a TAM partner is second hand experience at best. Huge difference. It's not a question of ones own approach. There's only that much you have to work with. The milder cases can often be turned around but the "hardened" ones - lolz - are an exercise in futility. If someone ignores $100k in student loans while playing PTO Queen sex is the least of their concern...)


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## happy as a clam

Blossom Leigh said:


> They have royally screwed our education system by allowing such predatory lending. I'm sorry she was fleece into believing the bullshyte.


Completely agree. Young adults are graduating with totally useless degrees now, to the tune of $100,000 in student loan debt! (Theater Arts, Fine Arts, Criminal Justice, to name a few). Nothing against those fields, but good luck getting a meaningful job with any of those degrees.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort

Blossom Leigh said:


> They have royally screwed our education system by allowing such predatory lending. I'm sorry she was fleece into believing the bullshyte.


This is very true. Nowhere else can you get an unlimited loan with no plan of how to pay it back.

Imagine asking a bank to put up a huge loan without a business plan or plan to repay.

And the unlimited loans have allowed colleges to jack tuition at ridiculous rates. .... they know the can charge whatever they want and the feds cover it. The colleges don't even have to demonstrate that their students graduate and get jobs. 

Sweet deal for them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ZDog377

Her and I have argued about this though. I applied to a local branch campus of a state university because I wanted to stay local. I had a grass cutting business that I was running and wanted to keep bringing in that money. Plus I knew that I couldn't afford to pay for housing and all that other stuff. I got a slight bit of help from my mom on a parent loan, but that went away when she passed. I would have loved to apply to somewhere non-local but I didn't want to go into debt over it. My payment is manageable right now at $140/month and I'm only paying ~3% interest.......


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## Blossom Leigh

lifeistooshort said:


> This is very true. Nowhere else can you get an unlimited loan with no plan of how to pay it back.
> 
> Imagine asking a bank to put up a huge loan without a business plan or plan to repay.
> 
> And the unlimited loans have allowed colleges to jack tuition at ridiculous rates. .... they know the can charge whatever they want and the feds cover it. The colleges don't even have to demonstrate that their students graduate and get jobs.
> 
> Sweet deal for them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Exactly.


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## lifeistooshort

Fwiw, I totally get why you'd be unhappy paying off debt like that. I paid for both degrees myself. .... had some loans for the first but paid them off within a few years. It would p!ss me off to pay down what I saw as irresponsible debt for my partner. 

But it's no different than credit card debt.....debt is a real problem in the US. This should've been attacked as a team.... it doesn't demonstrate commitment to the family to take the position that it's her problem. 

When you say you argued, what was the nature of the argument? Was it about her getting a job and paying it down? Or was it about how stupid it was to take that kind of debt? Because that milk is spilled. 

The issue you have with her getting a regular job is that you're not around to share the family responsibilities, so she'd be a working single parent all week. It's yet another reason your job isn't good for you guys, particularly if you want to take the position that her debt is her problem.

And the portion of your education that did not get repaid because your mom passed you got for free, since I'm assuming you did not step up to pay it. Even though it was for your education. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ZDog377

lifeistooshort said:


> Fwiw, I totally get why you'd be unhappy paying off debt like that. I paid for both degrees myself. .... had some loans for the first but paid them off within a few years. It would p!ss me off to pay down what I saw as irresponsible debt for my partner.
> 
> But it's no different than credit card debt.....debt is a real problem in the US. This should've been attacked as a team.... it doesn't demon strategy commitment to the family to take the position that it's her problem.
> 
> When you say you argued, what was the nature of the argument? Was it about her getting a job and paying it down? Or was it about how stupid it was to take that kind of debt? Because that milk is spilled.
> 
> The issue you have with her getting a regular job is that you're not around to share the family responsibilities, so she'd be a working single parent all week. It's yet another reason your job isn't good for you guys, particularly if you want to take the position that her debt is her problem.
> 
> And the portion of your education that did not get repaid because your mom passed you got for free, since I'm assuming you did not step up to pay it. Even though it was for your education.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The loan she had was not for a large amount, I would say no more than $5,000. They took care of it without me even asking. Still, I don't see what it has to do with the situation......


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## lifeistooshort

ZDog377 said:


> The loan she had was not for a large amount, I would say no more than $5,000. They took care of it without me even asking. Still, I don't see what it has to do with the situation......


Is there any particular reason you avoided addressing the bulk of my post?

Seems like the only one part you addressed was the one with an easy answer.

And the loan is relevant if you're going to preach financial responsibility when your mother took out a loan for you and it never got paid back.

But you're right that it was a small amount and not a big deal. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## naiveonedave

Duguesclin said:


> His paycheck is obviously not that fat because he cannot pay off his wife's student loans.
> 
> .


his wife needs a reality check if she is expecting him to pay off her debt. Especially when she is an epic fail at meeting his needs.


----------



## ZDog377

lifeistooshort said:


> Is there any particular reason you avoided addressing the bulk of my post?
> 
> Seems like the only one part you addressed was the one with an easy answer.
> 
> And the loan is relevant if you're going to preach financial responsibility when your mother took out a loan for you and it never got paid back.
> 
> But you're right that it was a small amount and not a big deal.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry, the edit must not have saved. I agree that preaching about running up that debr doesn't do any good now. I've been arguing with her that she needs to call and find what her options are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

What's her response?


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> What's her response?


Cost of child care is too much. She says she can't teach kids online because she doesn't have a teaching degree. I asked her if she had called about her loans yet, she said no. I left it at that....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> Cost of child care is too much. She says she can't teach kids online because she doesn't have a teaching degree. I asked her if she had called about her loans yet, she said no. I left it at that....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You mean a teaching certificate?

Have you looked at the qualifications yourself to see what she may be lacking or not lacking anything?


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> You mean a teaching certificate?
> 
> Have you looked at the qualifications yourself to see what she may be lacking or not lacking anything?


I'm looking at it right now. It looks like she has to go through a certification program.........


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> I'm looking at it right now. It looks like she has to go through a certification program.........


Length and cost?

Also... there are many positions, like corporate trainers that do not require the extra certifications, etc. Some of them pay decent.


----------



## ZDog377

It makes me laugh, her dad shows up and her mood changes already. She says she's not afraid to stand up for herself when he's here? That also means I can't yell at the kids either......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> It makes me laugh, her dad shows up and her mood changes already. She says she's not afraid to stand up for herself when he's here? That also means I can't yell at the kids either......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


hmmm... interesting. 

If he is an enabler, doesn't surprise me.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

LOL. Look, I guess I wasn't clear. The reason I asked why your wife can't use her degree is because I thought she was lying. Sounds like you didn't research either. Many states are hurting for teachers and you can use ANY degree, go through a certification program and teach online or in a school. Yes, I looked because I was looking at teaching jobs in other states and online. I am not saying it is easy, but online teaching is different than a classroom. She can grade papers when the kids are napping. She can write courses while they are at daycare. I know retired teachers who take three part time jobs at various schools and make between 50k-80k a year, NOT including their regular job. A few I know are SAHMs so, I'm not buying the blame you that is creeping into the thread. 

Also here:
https://myfedloan.org/manage-account/loan-forgiveness-discharge-programs/
https://myfedloan.org/billing-payment/payment-plans/index.shtml


Trust me, there are many many programs jumping up which will help you get the payment into a reasonable area. My sister is on a program where she gets credit for every year and pays ZERO dollars and she is receiving credit towards it being forgiven in 10 or 15 years. Sorry, can't remember which, but it will be 1/3 of the debt she accrued. Now, hopefully she has federal loans and such. It is called Income deb reduction and there are other programs.

Hope this helps.


----------



## lifeistooshort

ZDog377 said:


> I'm looking at it right now. It looks like she has to go through a certification program.........


It's not that much, I used to have a certificate. If you teach in public school you can go through new teacher certification for free while you work, but you may need to pass an exam in the subject you want. It's only a few bucks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Why do you have to yell at the kids?


----------



## ZDog377

turnera said:


> Why do you have to yell at the kids?


The oldest is continually leaving his baseball stuff in the van and making it a mess. I've told him numerous times that he needs to take his stuff inside when he's done for the night. The youngest was running from the back yard into the front yard and I wanted to make sure he didn't run out into the road. There are times that yelling at the kids is warranted......


----------



## ZDog377

phillybeffandswiss said:


> LOL. Look, I guess I wasn't clear. The reason I asked why your wife can't use her degree is because I thought she was lying. Sounds like you didn't research either. Many states are hurting for teachers and you can use ANY degree, go through a certification program and teach online or in a school. Yes, I looked because I was looking at teaching jobs in other states and online. I am not saying it is easy, but online teaching is different than a classroom. She can grade papers when the kids are napping. She can write courses while they are at daycare. I know retired teachers who take three part time jobs at various schools and make between 50k-80k a year, NOT including their regular job. A few I know are SAHMs so, I'm not buying the blame you that is creeping into the thread.
> 
> Also here:
> https://myfedloan.org/manage-account/loan-forgiveness-discharge-programs/
> https://myfedloan.org/billing-payment/payment-plans/index.shtml
> 
> 
> Trust me, there are many many programs jumping up which will help you get the payment into a reasonable area. My sister is on a program where she gets credit for every year and pays ZERO dollars and she is receiving credit towards it being forgiven in 10 or 15 years. Sorry, can't remember which, but it will be 1/3 of the debt she accrued. Now, hopefully she has federal loans and such. It is called Income deb reduction and there are other programs.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Sorry, I assumed back when she told me this that I could trust her. We talked the other day and I told her she needs to call the loan people and figure out what her options are. After that we can see what she needs to do.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Sorry for what? Most people do not know about these programs at all. If I wasn't trying to teach at the time, I wouldn't have known anything myself. My sister had a major issue and was out of the country, it is the only reason I found out about some of the loan reduction programs which exits. Also, no, you both need to research by yourself. Banks, the government and other institutions want the interest and will not tell you everything to help. She should call them and then search the internet, as well as you, high and low for other options.


----------



## Cynthia

There is no reason - ever - to yell at children. Yelling due to danger or yelling to call someone from a distance is not yelling at a person, so those don't count. But yelling at children is harmful to them. Children need to be instructed and they need a parent to hold boundaries, so there are consequences when they don't do what they are supposed to do or if they misbehave. I used to yell at my children and terribly regret it. I found that is a lack of self control in the parent and should be stopped. Get a hold of yourself. When your child doesn't do what he's supposed to, gently direct him by talking to him and touching gently him to move him in the right direction. Mostly you just have to stand there until he does as he is told. 

If a child is disobedient and undisciplined, it is the parent's responsibility to find out why and help the child to resolve the problem.

Yelling at children is verbal abuse.


----------



## john117

Unless it's during Drivers Ed


----------



## Blossom Leigh

john117 said:


> Unless it's during Drivers Ed


LOL! So true...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> There is no reason - ever - to yell at children. Yelling due to danger or yelling to call someone from a distance is not yelling at a person, so those don't count. But yelling at children is harmful to them. Children need to be instructed and they need a parent to hold boundaries, so there are consequences when they don't do what they are supposed to do or if they misbehave. I used to yell at my children and terribly regret it. I found that is a lack of self control in the parent and should be stopped. Get a hold of yourself. When your child doesn't do what he's supposed to, gently direct him by talking to him and touching gently him to move him in the right direction. Mostly you just have to stand there until he does as he is told.
> 
> If a child is disobedient and undisciplined, it is the parent's responsibility to find out why and help the child to resolve the problem.
> 
> Yelling at children is verbal abuse.


We are going to disagree on this one. I've told him multiple times to do something and he still ignores me. Punishments do not seem to work either......


----------



## turnera

Can I ask you to do some reading? See the attached articles.

The Only Parenting Model You Need ? Developmental Science

https://www.verywell.com/what-is-authoritative-parenting-2794956

The authoritative parenting style: A guide for the science-minded parent

https://www.foundationscounselingllc.com/authoritative-parenting.php

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...uthoritative-vs-authoritarian-parenting-style

Authoritative Parenting Style

It's how I raised my DD25. Her friends were ALWAYS getting yelled at and grounded and having to pull out of events at the last minute. After we drove to one friend's house to pick her up for a vacation her mom had agreed she could go on with us, only to find out she suddenly got grounded...I asked DD (16 at the time) why SHE never did anything to get grounded for. She replied "Why would I do something I know I'm going to get in trouble for?"

Today, she's done more with her life than ANY of her friends. And is happier, better centered, focused. 
Trust me, it's a whole new world, if you take it on.


----------



## ZDog377

turnera said:


> Can I ask you to do some reading? See the attached articles.
> 
> The Only Parenting Model You Need ? Developmental Science
> 
> https://www.verywell.com/what-is-authoritative-parenting-2794956
> 
> The authoritative parenting style: A guide for the science-minded parent
> 
> https://www.foundationscounselingllc.com/authoritative-parenting.php
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...uthoritative-vs-authoritarian-parenting-style
> 
> Authoritative Parenting Style
> 
> It's how I raised my DD25. Her friends were ALWAYS getting yelled at and grounded and having to pull out of events at the last minute. After we drove to one friend's house to pick her up for a vacation her mom had agreed she could go on with us, only to find out she suddenly got grounded...I asked DD (16 at the time) why SHE never did anything to get grounded for. She replied "Why would I do something I know I'm going to get in trouble for?"
> 
> Today, she's done more with her life than ANY of her friends. And is happier, better centered, focused.
> Trust me, it's a whole new world, if you take it on.


Yeah, I'll take a look at it. Doesn't hurt to have info.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

So she got a job offer today from a friend doing something she used to do a while back. She would be able to work weekends with this job and one or two days a week if needed. There will be a decent amount of driving involved though so we will have to discuss setting money aside for vehicle maintenance and things like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

So if you are gone all week, and she is gone on the weekends...

How could this possibly end badly?

:scratchhead:


----------



## Nucking Futs

farsidejunky said:


> So if you are gone all week, and she is gone on the weekends...
> 
> How could this possibly end badly?
> 
> :scratchhead:


Absence makes the heart grow fonder? Nah.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

At least she is willing to work. Have you guys addressed family time and couple time given the work schedule she is taking on? Everyone wants to see her address the debt. Protecting the relationship needs to be part of her plan.


----------



## ZDog377

It was just a quick passing today and the lady told my wife to pass along her resume. This lady was also the hiring manager. 

I'm planning on sitting down with her and talking about what is going to happen if she takes this job. Vehicle maintenance is a big thing. Last time she had a job like this, I was changing her oil every two months or so. I'm not going to be paying on a car that we don't have because she beat the crap out of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Gentle suggestion my friend.

Take the emotion out of it by agreeing on a cents per mile cost of wear and tear. 

I government rate is 54 cents per mile. The reason it is high is that includes pickup trucks and panel vans. 

For a mid size car a fair number is 30-35 cents per mile. 

Breakdown is simple. Gasoline is about 10 cents a mile, oil is 1 cent and all the rest is wear and tear. 

The reason that matters is the world is full of uber drivers who 'believe' they are earning x$ a week because they are ignoring the hundreds of dollars of weekly depreciation they are incurring by driving. 

And on a newer vehicle, that wear and tear is largely invisible. It is a large, heavily back loaded cost. 






ZDog377 said:


> It was just a quick passing today and the lady told my wife to pass along her resume. This lady was also the hiring manager.
> 
> I'm planning on sitting down with her and talking about what is going to happen if she takes this job. Vehicle maintenance is a big thing. Last time she had a job like this, I was changing her oil every two months or so. I'm not going to be paying on a car that we don't have because she beat the crap out of it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

MEM11363 said:


> Gentle suggestion my friend.
> 
> Take the emotion out of it by agreeing on a cents per mile cost of wear and tear.
> 
> I government rate is 54 cents per mile. The reason it is high is that includes pickup trucks and panel vans.
> 
> For a mid size car a fair number is 30-35 cents per mile.
> 
> Breakdown is simple. Gasoline is about 10 cents a mile, oil is 1 cent and all the rest is wear and tear.
> 
> The reason that matters is the world is full of uber drivers who 'believe' they are earning x$ a week because they are ignoring the hundreds of dollars of weekly depreciation they are incurring by driving.
> 
> And on a newer vehicle, that wear and tear is largely invisible. It is a large, heavily back loaded cost.


I'm guessing with a minivan we would be around 40-45. The gas mileage on the thing isn't that great, so I see her wanting to keep all the mileage money for gas money. 

We talked more last night and asked her thoughts on the job. She said she is fine with it, but wants to check on a couple things like seeing what days she would be working and things like that. I asked if she would be working both Saturday and Sunday and she responded that she couldn't do both because that wouldn't leave any time for us to do family things on the weekends. I also asked if she would be cutting down on her volunteer hours at the school and she seemed confused as to why she would do that because it's something she enjoys. I also found out last night that she's going to be President of the PTO this year, moving up from VP.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

This girl is clueless... sorry Z


----------



## farsidejunky

ZDog377 said:


> I'm guessing with a minivan we would be around 40-45. The gas mileage on the thing isn't that great, so I see her wanting to keep all the mileage money for gas money.
> 
> We talked more last night and asked her thoughts on the job. She said she is fine with it, but wants to check on a couple things like seeing what days she would be working and things like that. I asked if she would be working both Saturday and Sunday and she responded that she couldn't do both because that wouldn't leave any time for us to do family things on the weekends. I also asked if she would be cutting down on her volunteer hours at the school and she seemed confused as to why she would do that because it's something she enjoys. I also found out last night that she's going to be President of the PTO this year, moving up from VP.


What do her intentions tell you?


----------



## ZDog377

farsidejunky said:


> What do her intentions tell you?


Do I get three guesses and the first two don't count?

1 - That "us" comes last
2 - She's going to do what she wants
3 - Standing my ground isn't going to get anywhere


----------



## farsidejunky

ZDog377 said:


> Do I get three guesses and the first two don't count?
> 
> 1 - That "us" comes last
> 2 - She's going to do what she wants
> 3 - Standing my ground isn't going to get anywhere


1. Yes
2. Maybe
3. Maybe

You haven't really stood your ground. Not yet, at least. Have you ever simply told her that you will not tolerate something, and if it continues, you will have no choice but to leave her?

Have you ever _really_ drew a line in the sand and _followed it up_?

You have taught her through your actions that you wont.


----------



## ZDog377

farsidejunky said:


> 1. Yes
> 2. Maybe
> 3. Maybe
> 
> You haven't really stood your ground. Not yet, at least. Have you ever simply told her that you will not tolerate something, and if it continues, you will have no choice but to leave her?
> 
> Have you ever _really_ drew a line in the sand and _followed it up_?
> 
> You have taught her through your actions that you wont.


I've told her that if "us" keeps coming last, I'm going to leave. No, I have no actually left though. Her response was "go ahead". She keeps complaining that she doesn't know what "us" time is. I've told her that it's us spending time together, no kids, just focusing on us.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

She is full of bullshyte. Every woman knows what "us" time is.

She is playing dumb.


----------



## farsidejunky

Okay, Zdog. Here is what you do.

Set up a date. Make child care arrangements. Do it for this weekend if you can. If she tries to find excuses, tell her that you are setting up time for "us", and to not worry about anything except being there and enjoying herself.

Or do you lack the fortitude to take charge?


----------



## ZDog377

farsidejunky said:


> Okay, Zdog. Here is what you do.
> 
> Set up a date. Make child care arrangements. Do it for this weekend if you can. If she tries to find excuses, tell her that you are setting up time for "us", and to not worry about anything except being there and enjoying herself.
> 
> Or do you lack the fortitude to take charge?


We already have one for tomorrow night since her dad will be here. We can't leave until the kids are in bed, but its better than nothing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

Okay. At that date, have fun, be care free, and DO NOT let this other baggage interfere with the time together. Hold her hand; don't wait for her to take yours. I would also plan to initiate unless there is a compelling reason not to.

After the date, it is time to tell her what you expect. But...and a BIG but here... Never, ever, ever play brinksmanship unless you are willing to go over the brink. What do I mean by that? The things I am about to mention MUST be important enough for you to end the marriage over, or there is no point in even bringing them up. 

Here is what I see. Your list may vary. 

1. That she prioritize work that makes money, family time, and couple time, above her volunteer role.
2. That intimacy, to include sex, returns to the marriage. 
3. That you are not okay with the PTA president role, or any leadership role in the PTA moving forward (I assume that is your stance) other than basic volunteer.
4. That while you understand feeling fulfillment is important, that owning a Harley would make you feel fulfilled, but you are not running out to buy one with money you don't have (which is exactly what she is doing; wasting time she should be spending on actually earning money).
5. That her student loans are to become a financial priority, and her professional considerations need to be geared toward that necessity.

If she balks, says no, or any other half measures, I would implement a full stop on EVERYTHING, and consult an attorney. There is too much at stake for you to keep wasting time with empty demands.


----------



## john117

ZDog377 said:


> I've told her that if "us" keeps coming last, I'm going to leave. No, I have no actually left though. Her response was "go ahead". She keeps complaining that she doesn't know what "us" time is. I've told her that it's us spending time together, no kids, just focusing on us.


You can't force anyone to spend time with you... Why don't you go for a trial separation and let her sweat out the details and financial stuff?


----------



## ZDog377

john117 said:


> You can't force anyone to spend time with you... Why don't you go for a trial separation and let her sweat out the details and financial stuff?


I'll be honest, I don't know how to go about that kind of stuff. I really have no idea where I would go during that time. She says she does the volunteering because I tell her to do stuff she enjoys......


----------



## john117

ZDog377 said:


> I'll be honest, I don't know how to go about that kind of stuff. I really have no idea where I would go during that time. She says she does the volunteering because I tell her to do stuff she enjoys......


This means you need to plan better... There's these things called apartments, and moving trucks...


----------



## Cynthia

She must realize that if you divorce her, she is going to be forced to go back to work and will be expected to make an amount equal to what is expected for her degree. If she doesn't want to make changes, they will be made for her through the divorce courts, if you continue in the direction you are going. I'm not recommending divorce. I'm just saying that if this is your plan, she should wake up before she finds herself having to quit anyway.


----------



## john117

For clueless spouses, such comments are about as comprehensible as calculus is to my cat. 

My wife makes a good amount of money - as do I. Yet she seems to think that come divorce time all she needs to do is quit her job and magically I'm transformed into an ATM (Alimony Teller Machine). That is, that I'll be fearful of paying alimony hence I'll stay put. It doesn't quite work this way (http://dadsdivorce.com/articles/imputing-income-how-to-handle-a-wife-who-quits-her-job/)

Such people have LONG checked out from the Reality Hotel. They see things only thru their distorted vision, and the rest is history. That's what makes it so difficult to deal with them.


----------



## ZDog377

Any recommendations on how to find a good lawyer for this? I definitely want to get an initial consult but don't want to go around asking friends for recommendations......


----------



## farsidejunky

In my closest decent-sized town of about 50000, there is a firm that specializes in divorce for fathers. I would start with some sort of search along those lines.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> Any recommendations on how to find a good lawyer for this? I definitely want to get an initial consult but don't want to go around asking friends for recommendations......


I found my barracuda by asking my uncle who was well connected in town.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> I found my barracuda by asking my uncle who was well connected in town.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Being Italian I'll have to be specific when I ask that. Somebody might think I'm looking for concrete shoes, not a lawyer......:grin2:


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> Being Italian I'll have to be specific when I ask that. Somebody might think I'm looking for concrete shoes, not a lawyer......:grin2:


Lol.. True
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

So this weekend wasn't bad at all. We did get to spend more time together and that will hopefully be something that continues. She also brought up doing sexual activities twice....and they actually happened. She applied for the one job and she is planning on calling to see what can be done about her loans. I will take a look at things again at the end of this week and see what still needs done.


----------



## farsidejunky

That is good.

What is different?


----------



## ZDog377

farsidejunky said:


> That is good.
> 
> What is different?


I honestly don't know. I've been trying to figure out what I've done different or things like that and I can't come up with anything. Possibly just being more relaxed about things and not as uptight?


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

The job prospect has her feeling better about herself, more self-confident, etc. Someone values her, thinks she's worthwhile, who isn't a spouse or dependent. An ego boost is always sexy.


----------



## frusdil

ZDog377 said:


> ... We have been trying to spend more time together, but that has fallen to one of the lower priorities in the relationship.
> 
> *She then added that her and I spending time together isn't at the top of her priority list.*


Omg! How ungrateful can she be? Does she realise how damn lucky she is to be able to stay home and raise the kids? Seriously. I worked full time for 20 years, and I now have a wonderful, loving husband who is happy for me to stay home and look after our little family. I love him so much for it, and I tell him so all the time. I'm so lucky. I really feel for you OP.



Marc878 said:


> Most single mothers work a job. How often do you see SAHM's these days????
> 
> *She wants him home more then she needs to get a job and pull her end*.
> 
> Sounds like she's somewhat of a cake eater.


Damn straight she does! If it's all too blo0dy hard, tell him to work closer to home and SHE can go out to work full time and see how "easy" he has it.


----------



## ZDog377

Hopeful Cynic said:


> The job prospect has her feeling better about herself, more self-confident, etc. Someone values her, thinks she's worthwhile, who isn't a spouse or dependent. An ego boost is always sexy.


She doesn't seem too keen on the new job offer. It took a couple days for me to convince her to apply and now she doesn't seem too thrilled with checking in to see what the status is.


----------



## ZDog377

frusdil said:


> Omg! How ungrateful can she be? Does she realise how damn lucky she is to be able to stay home and raise the kids? Seriously. I worked full time for 20 years, and I now have a wonderful, loving husband who is happy for me to stay home and look after our little family. I love him so much for it, and I tell him so all the time. I'm so lucky. I really feel for you OP.
> 
> 
> 
> Damn straight she does! If it's all too blo0dy hard, tell him to work closer to home and SHE can go out to work full time and see how "easy" he has it.


That's always one of our arguments, she doesn't think I could hack being the stay at home dad. I keep telling her that I might not get it right away but I'll work my way through it. 

Our latest argument is she is possibly coming into some money and she is trying to figure out what to do with the money.......


----------



## Holdingontoit

ZDog377 said:


> Our latest argument is she is possibly coming into some money and she is trying to figure out what to do with the money.......


You mean besides paying off her student loans?


----------



## ZDog377

Holdingontoit said:


> You mean besides paying off her student loans?


Yeah, she wants to set some aside in a college fund for each of the kids......


----------



## Holdingontoit

That is just going to dig the hole deeper. I can see how this plays out. With some savings, she will push for an expensive private college for the kids and you'll have half saved and then you'll borrow the other half for the kids. So you'll end up with all her loans plus more loans for the kids. Stop the madness. Use the inheritance to pay off her loans. Then the kids go to college wherever the family can afford. Might be State U. Might be community college for 2 years then finish at State U. But that way wife's loans are paid off and kids graduate without debt and family is finally on sound financial footing.

Look, I understand the pull to go to the "best" college. My son got into Northwestern and Vanderbilt and decided to attend Illinois. Got some grants, tuition is lower, and engineering school is higher rated than the private schools. But "name value" outside engineering is lower. Still, he is getting great education, has had fabulous internships (2 of them paid and with 401k match), and will for sure get a great job in his field. And will graduate without debt. Hard to see how Vandy or NU degree and $200k of debt is a better deal. Still, I understand how hard it is to turn down acceptance from Ivy or high level private to go to State U. Do it anyway. It is the wise choice.


----------



## ZDog377

Holdingontoit said:


> That is just going to dig the hole deeper. I can see how this plays out. With some savings, she will push for an expensive private college for the kids and you'll have half saved and then you'll borrow the other half for the kids. So you'll end up with all her loans plus more loans for the kids. Stop the madness. Use the inheritance to pay off her loans. Then the kids go to college wherever the family can afford. Might be State U. Might be community college for 2 years then finish at State U. But that way wife's loans are paid off and kids graduate without debt and family is finally on sound financial footing.
> 
> Look, I understand the pull to go to the "best" college. My son got into Northwestern and Vanderbilt and decided to attend Illinois. Got some grants, tuition is lower, and engineering school is higher rated than the private schools. But "name value" outside engineering is lower. Still, he is getting great education, has had fabulous internships (2 of them paid and with 401k match), and will for sure get a great job in his field. And will graduate without debt. Hard to see how Vandy or NU degree and $200k of debt is a better deal. Still, I understand how hard it is to turn down acceptance from Ivy or high level private to go to State U. Do it anyway. It is the wise choice.


I've already told her we aren't getting them loans for college. They can get good grades and work during school to get their money for it. That's how I did it, they can do it the same way. The inheritance won't be enough to make a dent in the loans, it will be just "throwing away" money in a sense. 

I'm all for helping the kids get to where they need to be, but there is a point where they need to learn how to do it on their own.


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## MarriedTex

ZDog377 said:


> Yeah, she wants to set some aside in a college fund for each of the kids......


Saving for college is great IF you don't have other debts to address. But if you have loose cash in any account (except retirement in some cases), it will count against the financial aid you receive from schools. If you have relatively low savings and sub six figure income, the probability of receiving at least some grants (not loans) is much higher.

Tell your wife you would be able to do much more for the kids long term if you get her college debt addressed. If her debt is gone, you will have more free cash flow to address to college needs once the time comes while also maximizing your kids' chances at getting supporting grants, as well.


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## jld

Please get a professional to talk to her about the importance of addressing her college debt, if talking with you is not making an impression. Any extra money should be going to those loans.


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## lifeistooshort

jld said:


> Please get a professional to talk to her about the importance of addressing her college debt, if talking with you is not making an impression. Any extra money should be going to those loans.


This. She's behaving in a very stupid manner where her loans are concerned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ZDog377

lifeistooshort said:


> This. She's behaving in a very stupid manner where her loans are concerned.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've expressed this to her and told her to not spend it. I said that I don't want them trying to recapture what she's spent the money on and all of a sudden we have to come up with the money she has spent. It's not like we have a house that is caving in that needs fixed. We do have a retaining wall that needs built, but I should be able to take care of that with a home equity loan/tax refund.


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## Forever27

Do not procure any more loans! Pay off the existing ones.


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## ZDog377

Forever27 said:


> Do not procure any more loans! Pay off the existing ones.


The retaining wall is needed so more dirt doesn't wash out from under the footer of my house.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> The retaining wall is needed so more dirt doesn't wash out from under the footer of my house.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Doesn't your wife have a responsibility for anything other than that which makes her feel good?


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## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> Doesn't your wife have a responsibility for anything other than that which makes her feel good?


I don't understand what you mean?


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## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> I don't understand what you mean?


She seems to have no concept of responsibility when it comes to money. She has a large sum of money coming and taking care of pressing needs doesn't even factor into her view. Her only thought is what she wants to do with it, not what she is responsible for.
You should not have to take out loans to correct a serious problem with your home if she has money to fix it. She should not be thinking of doing anything with the money other than take care of responsibilities first. She gets her child support and spends it how she wishes as well. She doesn't seem to see "her" money as a joint decision. It's what she wants and that's all there is to it.


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## Blossom Leigh

Agree. I get bonuses every year and they have gone to responsibilities. All of them. My H has to tell me to spend them on something else. That is not my first thought. But because of that we are 18 months from being 100% debt free owning three houses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> She seems to have no concept of responsibility when it comes to money. She has a large sum of money coming and taking care of pressing needs doesn't even factor into her view. Her only thought is what she wants to do with it, not what she is responsible for.
> You should not have to take out loans to correct a serious problem with your home if she has money to fix it. She should not be thinking of doing anything with the money other than take care of responsibilities first. She gets her child support and spends it how she wishes as well. She doesn't seem to see "her" money as a joint decision. It's what she wants and that's all there is to it.


I agree with this a lot. She needs groceries, she asks for my debit card. Preschool tuition, my checkbook. Kids to the doctors, my card. Just like today......we have season passes for a local amusement park. Her dad bought them for the kids for Christmas. She wanted to go today, I said why can't we stay home and clean up the house. She's all mad now because she can't be running around. Now we have to go next weekend instead......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia

There are some serious issues in your marriage. Lack of sex is only a symptom. It appears, from what you've said, that your wife has an entitlement issue and she's is pretty self-centered. It also appears that you are enabling her attitude.
Trying to force her to do what you believe is right isn't going to work. She has to want to do what is right.
I haven't read it, so I'm not sure if it would be helpful, but I'm wondering if the book "Boundaries in Marriage" might be helpful. It seems that she can do whatever she wants without regarding you. You two are not in unity. Unity is one of the most important factors in marriage. If husband and wife are not in unity, how can they function properly together? A house divided against itself will fall. If this isn't resolved, things will only get worse.


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I agree with this a lot. She needs groceries, she asks for my debit card. Preschool tuition, my checkbook. Kids to the doctors, my card. Just like today......we have season passes for a local amusement park. Her dad bought them for the kids for Christmas. She wanted to go today, I said why can't we stay home and clean up the house. She's all mad now because she can't be running around. Now we have to go next weekend instead......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How about cleaning up now, and going after lunch?


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## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> There are some serious issues in your marriage. Lack of sex is only a symptom. It appears, from what you've said, that your wife has an entitlement issue and she's is pretty self-centered. It also appears that you are enabling her attitude.
> Trying to force her to do what you believe is right isn't going to work. She has to want to do what is right.
> I haven't read it, so I'm not sure if it would be helpful, but I'm wondering if the book "Boundaries in Marriage" might be helpful. It seems that she can do whatever she wants without regarding you. You two are not in unity. Unity is one of the most important factors in marriage. If husband and wife are not in unity, how can they function properly together? A house divided against itself will fall. If this isn't resolved, things will only get worse.


I agree about the unity. Just this morning as an example.....a friend pretty much gave us a quad because his daughter didn't like it. Plastic is a little rough and needs gone over but no big deal. I figured the oldest and I could work on it as a father and son project. He starts complaining about how he doesn't want to learn about it or work on it. I explained that I'm trying to teach him things I wish I knew when I was a kid. The whole time he's complaining, she doesn't say a word. After he leaves the room, I ask her why she didn't back me up on anything. She says the argument is between me and him and she's staying out of it......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I agree about the unity. Just this morning as an example.....a friend pretty much gave us a quad because his daughter didn't like it. Plastic is a little rough and needs gone over but no big deal. I figured the oldest and I could work on it as a father and son project. He starts complaining about how he doesn't want to learn about it or work on it. I explained that I'm trying to teach him things I wish I knew when I was a kid. The whole time he's complaining, she doesn't say a word. After he leaves the room, I ask her why she didn't back me up on anything. She says the argument is between me and him and she's staying out of it......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just start working on it. He may become curious and join in.

Remember, be the example for your family.


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## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> I agree about the unity. Just this morning as an example.....a friend pretty much gave us a quad because his daughter didn't like it. Plastic is a little rough and needs gone over but no big deal. I figured the oldest and I could work on it as a father and son project. He starts complaining about how he doesn't want to learn about it or work on it. I explained that I'm trying to teach him things I wish I knew when I was a kid. The whole time he's complaining, she doesn't say a word. After he leaves the room, I ask her why she didn't back me up on anything. She says the argument is between me and him and she's staying out of it......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did you say that he demands you spend time with him doing what he wants and that your wife complains that you don't spend enough time with him?


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ZDog377 said:


> I agree about the unity. Just this morning as an example.....a friend pretty much gave us a quad because his daughter didn't like it. Plastic is a little rough and needs gone over but no big deal. I figured the oldest and I could work on it as a father and son project. He starts complaining about how he doesn't want to learn about it or work on it. I explained that I'm trying to teach him things I wish I knew when I was a kid. The whole time he's complaining, she doesn't say a word. After he leaves the room, I ask her why she didn't back me up on anything. She says the argument is between me and him and she's staying out of it......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think she was right in this instance. 

Why would you need her support to make your kid do something he doesn't want to do? 

It was your idea of fun, not his.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## phillybeffandswiss

I wouldn't have argued. I'd have fixed it up and then when the fun time started he wouldn't use it the first few times. 

Sorry, gotta disagree, all time spent together is not always what the child wants. Yes, even if my idea of fun isn't what the child expects.


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## farsidejunky

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I wouldn't have argued. I'd have fixed it up and then when the fun time started he wouldn't use it the first few times.
> 
> Sorry, gotta disagree, all time spent together is not always what the child wants. Yes, even if my idea of fun isn't what the child expects.


I don't disagree with your approach at all.

What I disagreed with was making him be involved. Your approach would have been much more effective.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## phillybeffandswiss

farsidejunky said:


> What I disagreed with was making him be involved


My approach comes from him balking at being involved. 

My parents made me be involved in quite a few things I absolutely didn't like and I didn't die from it at all. Heck, quite a few turned out to be enjoyable. If my mom disapproved, there were times she did, I didn't find out until I was an adult. As long as it wasn't dangerous or stupid she backed my dad. It would have NEVER devolved into an argument though when I was growing up. I would have moped, my dad would have stopped and I learned some type of lesson. She backed my dad almost every time whether it was verbal or she didn't say no. 

So, we fundamentally disagree. We must come from very different upbringings.


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## ZDog377

I agree with both of you, my approach was probably wrong. I didn't learn about fixing things until I had a truck and it needed fixed to be driveable. Once I saw that I could use some tools and my hands to make something work again, I was in love. Fortunately, I had my uncle to help me with those things. My dad always seemed to end up with more parts than when he started or would end up taking it to my uncle anyways. 

I was brought up a completely different way too. I didn't have much choice when things happened. I went along whether I liked it or not. I would mouth off every now and then and seeing my dad mad was enough to set me straight. I had a respect of my parents though. My parents both worked and I knew they busted their behinds for what we had. My oldest doesn't have a fear/respect for either of us I feel. I believe it starts at the top because he doesn't see his mom give me respect and I probably need to show her how much I respect/appreciate what she does as well. 

I've been trying to show my oldest that he is a smart kid. He gets down on himself sometimes when he can't figure something out and I'm trying to get him to realize you just need to work at it. I want him to help me work on it so he will have pride in it, not beat the crap out of it and just bring it to me when it needs fixed. 

I guess I'm looking for the end result to be the right thing, just the way I go about it is what I need to change.


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## Blossom Leigh

I think there is a definite disconnect between what they like to do and what you like to do and no one is chosing to meet in the middle and the divide is growing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

Zdog,

When you feel upset or frustrated, I want you to come back to this post. 

Read it again and again. 

This is the man z2 fell in love with. This is you - in the zone. 

Yelling at the children, that is you, completely out of the zone.

In the zone - you are amazing. Out of the zone, you are just one more angry guy. The gap between those two states - is enormous. 






ZDog377 said:


> I agree with both of you, my approach was probably wrong. I didn't learn about fixing things until I had a truck and it needed fixed to be driveable. Once I saw that I could use some tools and my hands to make something work again, I was in love. Fortunately, I had my uncle to help me with those things. My dad always seemed to end up with more parts than when he started or would end up taking it to my uncle anyways.
> 
> I was brought up a completely different way too. I didn't have much choice when things happened. I went along whether I liked it or not. I would mouth off every now and then and seeing my dad mad was enough to set me straight. I had a respect of my parents though. My parents both worked and I knew they busted their behinds for what we had. My oldest doesn't have a fear/respect for either of us I feel. I believe it starts at the top because he doesn't see his mom give me respect and I probably need to show her how much I respect/appreciate what she does as well.
> 
> I've been trying to show my oldest that he is a smart kid. He gets down on himself sometimes when he can't figure something out and I'm trying to get him to realize you just need to work at it. I want him to help me work on it so he will have pride in it, not beat the crap out of it and just bring it to me when it needs fixed.
> 
> I guess I'm looking for the end result to be the right thing, just the way I go about it is what I need to change.


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## ZDog377

MEM11363 said:


> Zdog,
> 
> When you feel upset or frustrated, I want you to come back to this post.
> 
> Read it again and again.
> 
> This is the man z2 fell in love with. This is you - in the zone.
> 
> Yelling at the children, that is you, completely out of the zone.
> 
> In the zone - you are amazing. Out of the zone, you are just one more angry guy. The gap between those two states - is enormous.


Here's an example though:

Last night, our middle son had t-ball practice cancelled. I was working on getting the roof done on my shed with the neighbor. My wife decides that she's going to go to the school board meeting and leave the kids home with me. Oldest already has a friend over (neighbor's son). My wife tells the oldest to keep an eye on his brothers because I'm working on the shed. That lasted for about five minutes. All of them come out of the house and start running around the yard. Middle one starts screaming because he can't play baseball with the oldest one. Youngest follows suit. I calmly ask the oldest to watch his brothers like mom asked him to. He starts moaning and complaining about never being able to do anything. I tell him if it's so bad his friend can go home now. Middle son plays with them for a few minutes before something goes wrong and he isn't included again. Rinse and repeat for probably about an hour and a half. She finally gets home from school board meeting, asks why I'm mad. I explain why, she asks the oldest some questions and he admits to basically blowing off what she asked him to do. No punishment or anything like that.......


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## farsidejunky

Why should she punish him? She wasn't present. Where is your authority?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## ZDog377

farsidejunky said:


> Why should she punish him? She wasn't present. Where is your authority?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I told him multiple times that he needed to involve them doing things or make sure they were safe when I was helping the neighbor. Punishment doesn't seem to accomplish anything unless it comes from her. It's almost like he "laughs" at me when I tell him something......


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## farsidejunky

So you are saying she is the source of your parental authority?

AYFKM?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## ZDog377

farsidejunky said:


> So you are saying she is the source of your parental authority?
> 
> AYFKM?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I'd say I lean more towards the harsh right in the beginning punishment where she is the type that gives second chance after second chance for about five times before she does something.


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## farsidejunky

None of which has anything to do with the question I just asked you. Which tells me you're avoiding the answer.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## ZDog377

farsidejunky said:


> None of which has anything to do with the question I just asked you. Which tells me you're avoiding the answer.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


The correct answer is that no she is not the source of my authority.....


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## farsidejunky

ZDog377 said:


> The correct answer is that no she is not the source of my authority.....


Great. Sounds good, briefs well... However... 

How do you feel about your authority?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## ZDog377

farsidejunky said:


> Great. Sounds good, briefs well... However...
> 
> How do you feel about your authority?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I feel I don't have much authority when it comes to things. Probably on the financial side 50% of the time but maybe only 25% of the time when it comes to the kids. I also feel it's different with our oldest vs. the two younger ones. Like I've said before, I'm probably harsher than most but I don't think there is that fear/respect from the oldest. I've told her many times before, it frustrates me the most when he's screwing around on something when I know he can do better. It seems like he's doing it just to push my buttons.......


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## Blossom Leigh

Sounds like he wants to find your "line" that can't be crossed and show it to him. 

He WANTS you to lead.


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## MarriedTex

Blossom Leigh said:


> Sounds like he wants to find your "line" that can't be crossed and show it to him.
> 
> He WANTS you to lead.


Usually agree with you BL, but not on this one. ZDog tried to lead earlier, trying to introduce oldest son to car repair. Little positive response. So, I don't think this is a youthful hunger for ZDog leadership.

Rather, for the oldest, Z-Dog is step dad unwilling / unable to exercise full authority. Oldest son knows that he can play his Mom and not truly fear his step-dad. This is just a kid getting away with stuff because he knows he can. 

ZDog is being deferential to wife in all things. Allowing her to be "super PTA Mom" when she needs to be focusing on earning some cash. Trying to be "best-buddy" role model to oldest step-son without having full parental authority. 

He's trying to be the good guy. Saying "yes" to everything without being given the authority / control to create a positive outcome. ZDog is in a total lose/lose situation. She will continue to create bigger and bigger messes and always expect ZDog to come up from behind with the mop and clean things up. 

What ZDog needs is a good, well-defined set of boundaries on behavior that is acceptable / unacceptable coupled with consequences for those who violate those boundaries. Right now, he's just a people pleaser in a family with several folks more than willing to steamroll him for their own benefit.


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## Blossom Leigh

MarriedTex said:


> Usually agree with you BL, but not on this one. ZDog tried to lead earlier, trying to introduce oldest son to car repair. Little positive response. So, I don't think this is a youthful hunger for ZDog leadership.
> 
> Rather, for the oldest, Z-Dog is step dad unwilling / unable to exercise full authority. Oldest son knows that he can play his Mom and not truly fear his step-dad. This is just a kid getting away with stuff because he knows he can.
> 
> ZDog is being deferential to wife in all things. Allowing her to be "super PTA Mom" when she needs to be focusing on earning some cash. Trying to be "best-buddy" role model to oldest step-son without having full parental authority.
> 
> He's trying to be the good guy. Saying "yes" to everything without being given the authority / control to create a positive outcome. ZDog is in a total lose/lose situation. She will continue to create bigger and bigger messes and always expect ZDog to come up from behind with the mop and clean things up.
> 
> *What ZDog needs is a good, well-defined set of boundaries on behavior that is acceptable / unacceptable coupled with consequences for those who violate those boundaries*. Right now, he's just a people pleaser in a family with several folks more than willing to steamroll him for their own benefit.


Totally agree with the bolded.

I also agree he is in a total lose lose situation

But I still feel this kids wants his leadership even if he is digging at him just because he can. Those well defined boundaries will fix both the lose lose and what this child is looking for imo  BUT he's got to do it with a healthy detachment AND compassion.


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## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> Here's an example though:
> 
> Last night, our middle son had t-ball practice cancelled. I was working on getting the roof done on my shed with the neighbor. My wife decides that she's going to go to the school board meeting and leave the kids home with me. Oldest already has a friend over (neighbor's son). My wife tells the oldest to keep an eye on his brothers because I'm working on the shed. That lasted for about five minutes. All of them come out of the house and start running around the yard. Middle one starts screaming because he can't play baseball with the oldest one. Youngest follows suit. I calmly ask the oldest to watch his brothers like mom asked him to. He starts moaning and complaining about never being able to do anything. I tell him if it's so bad his friend can go home now. Middle son plays with them for a few minutes before something goes wrong and he isn't included again. Rinse and repeat for probably about an hour and a half. She finally gets home from school board meeting, asks why I'm mad. I explain why, she asks the oldest some questions and he admits to basically blowing off what she asked him to do. No punishment or anything like that.......


This kind of thing is going to happen again.
First off, you had plans based on not having any children to supervise. Your wife's plans changed, so she changed your plans according to her desired activity. She left you with children that you have little to no ability to supervise due to insubordination encouraged by your wife.
This is what you could have done differently. 
1. You could have told you wife to take the children with her. Of course she would have said "no" that she couldn't, but neither could you keep the kids, supervise them appropriately, and do what you were planning to do. That should have been pointed out to her. 
Of course you cannot control her, but you can tell her "no." Whether or not she complies with your wishes or not you can't do anything about, but at least you are stating your desire and explaining to her the flaws in her thinking.
2. Once you were left with the children, they are your main responsibility, after working on the shed. If you have to stop work to speak with them and get them on track, then that's what you do. Shouting and giving orders from the roof does not work. You found that out.
3. Do not make a threat you are not willing to carry out. You should have sent the boy's friend home. After that, you should have held him accountable for watching his younger siblings as he had been instructed to do.
He can complain all he wants, but you don't answer his arguments. That answering a fool according to his folly. When you answer his arguments, you give them credence. You tell him that you are instructing him, not engaging in an argument. You are telling him how it is. If he doesn't like it, he needs to adjust his attitude.
If he does not do as he is told and he does not adjust his attitude, you send him to his room or you make him do a chore. It is unlikely he would comply with a chore, since he is disobedient and spoiled. But you could put him in his room. If this requires you to stop what you are doing to guard his door and make sure he stays put, then so be it. Yes, it ruins your plans and puts you behind on your chores, but that is part of parenting and standing up to be respected.

Likely your wife would come home and let the boy out of his room, which is when you take her aside and let her know that you are not going to tolerate this anymore. She is spoiling the kids, setting a bad example to the rest of the kids, and being inconsiderate of you. She can do with that what she wishes, but you are not going to accomplish anything by keeping your mouth shut or by yelling. You have to stand up and do what's right. This takes putting your family and the instruction of your children as a first priority in your life, behind chores and everything else.

You don't get angry about it. You just stand up and do what's right and you do your best to instruct your children in that as well.


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## Holdingontoit

Or you can play tit for tat. Next time she has plans and you are scheduled to be home with the kids, change your plans at the last minute and be away. You know "I felt like having a beer with Bill and watching the game, won't be home until 11 pm, have a nice evening with the kids". She will complain she had plans. You tell her to reschedule. She gets angry. You stay calm and say "I wanted a marriage where we help each other and coordinate our plans. You made it clear we don't have that kind of marriage. You apparently prefer a marriage where each person is out for himself. You made those ground rules, I am just playing your game. If you want a marriage where we coordinate plans and take turns, then you better start pulling your weight. Rescheduling your plans for tonight would be a good start." Then you hang up the phone, mute the ringer, and don't come home until 11.


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## Tron

Sadly, this is actually the kind of marriage zdog has, he just ignored the memo.



Holdingontoit said:


> Or you can play tit for tat. Next time she has plans and you are scheduled to be home with the kids, change your plans at the last minute and be away. You know "I felt like having a beer with Bill and watching the game, won't be home until 11 pm, have a nice evening with the kids". She will complain she had plans. You tell her to reschedule. She gets angry. You stay calm and say "I wanted a marriage where we help each other and coordinate our plans. You made it clear we don't have that kind of marriage. You apparently prefer a marriage where each person is out for himself. You made those ground rules, I am just playing your game. If you want a marriage where we coordinate plans and take turns, then you better start pulling your weight. Rescheduling your plans for tonight would be a good start." Then you hang up the phone, mute the ringer, and don't come home until 11.


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## ZDog377

I talked to her today and said something has to give. I understand kids are moody, but he just seems to fight even the slightest thing. As an example he knows he has to shower directly after his baseball game before he even thinks about watching TV. This way he gets it done before he falls asleep. He usually pushes it off and then it turns into the "I wasn't sleeping", then he complains about it again when we hound him again in the morning. 

I told both of them (him and my wife) that we are starting a new method of punishment for him once school is out (roughly a week). He will receive a punishment for every three strikes he receives. Of course it has to be spelled out and that's what I'll spend this upcoming week doing. I started showing him tonight how quickly the strikes can add up just by him talking back and not listening. He started moaning and saying how I never let him do anything fun and then he also got mad because I was working on my shed tonight instead of coming to his baseball game. Well, the neighbor is helping me and I have to be able to work when he can. Especially when she hounded him as soon as he came over as to when it will be done.

I know it's not going to be an over night fix, but something has to change. We don't ask him for much. He has to do simple stuff like put his clothes away and things like that. His room constantly needs work and I try and remind him of that. I remember when I was a kid, sometimes waiting for my dad to get home to find out about what I did was almost worse than the punishment itself.


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## Holdingontoit

Tron said:


> Sadly, this is actually the kind of marriage zdog has, he just ignored the memo.


Took me 20 years to read the memo. Some of us are slow learners.

The good news is that even after 20 years, you can learn to play the "other" game and see substantial changes in your spouse's behavior. They always expected you to play that game, and they are typically quite responsive to your "moves" in that game. Even if you don't start playing for many many years.


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I talked to her today and said something has to give. I understand kids are moody, but he just seems to fight even the slightest thing. As an example he knows he has to shower directly after his baseball game before he even thinks about watching TV. This way he gets it done before he falls asleep. He usually pushes it off and then it turns into the "I wasn't sleeping", then he complains about it again when we hound him again in the morning.
> 
> I told both of them (him and my wife) that we are starting a new method of punishment for him once school is out (roughly a week). He will receive a punishment for every three strikes he receives. Of course it has to be spelled out and that's what I'll spend this upcoming week doing. I started showing him tonight how quickly the strikes can add up just by him talking back and not listening. He started moaning and saying how I never let him do anything fun and then he also got mad because I was working on my shed tonight instead of coming to his baseball game. Well, the neighbor is helping me and I have to be able to work when he can. Especially when she hounded him as soon as he came over as to when it will be done.
> 
> I know it's not going to be an over night fix, but something has to change. We don't ask him for much. He has to do simple stuff like put his clothes away and things like that. His room constantly needs work and I try and remind him of that. I remember when I was a kid, sometimes waiting for my dad to get home to find out about what I did was almost worse than the punishment itself.


I think you would be better off trying to build a relationship with him than trying to figure out how best to punish/control him.

Probably would be a good approach to take with your wife, too.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I think you would be better off trying to build a relationship with him than trying to figure out how best to punish/control him.
> 
> Probably would be a good approach to take with your wife, too.


I don't necessarily disagree with this, but how does one simultaneously build a relationship with someone who is hell bent on taking you for granted, without some sort of a "reset"?


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I don't necessarily disagree with this, but how does one simultaneously build a relationship with someone who is hell bent on taking you for granted, without some sort of a "reset"?


Leadership. Mostly with oneself.

Far, are you humble with your wife?


----------



## farsidejunky

When needed or merited, of course I am humble. Especially when I am in the wrong. 

However, when my wife wants me to accept the unacceptable, humility has no part to play in the equation. That is also an important aspect of leadership.

There is more to it than just leading by example.

Edit: I would also like to point out that I asked a "how" question, to which you gave a "what" response.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> When needed or merited, of course I am humble. Especially when I am in the wrong.
> 
> However, when my wife wants me to accept the unacceptable, humility has no part to play in the equation. That is also an important aspect of leadership.
> 
> There is more to it than just leading by example.
> 
> Edit: I would also like to point out that I asked a "how" question, to which you gave a "what" response.


I think I answered with a "how."

Far, even when Dug tells me No, he usually does it with humility. It can be done. Firmness with reason is key.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> Leadership. Mostly with oneself.
> 
> Far, are you humble with your wife?


You keep giving this answer but I've never seen you explain it. How about helping us poor souls who haven't reached your level of enlightenment yet and tell us, step by step, how to be the leader this situation requires. No more high sounding but broad pronouncements, actual instructions.


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> You keep giving this answer but I've never seen you explain it. How about helping us poor souls who haven't reached your level of enlightenment yet and tell us, step by step, how to be the leader this situation requires. No more high sounding but broad pronouncements, actual instructions.


Ignoring your sarcasm and disrespect . . .

It's not a formula, NF. And it may not be possible for everyone. And if you really want to understand what I am suggesting, please read _Seven Habits of Highly Effective People._

I would suggest he sit down with his wife and ask to hear all her grievances against him. Anything she wants to say, anyway she wants to say it. He just wants it all out, all on the table. He could take notes to look back on later. 

There is no more important relationship in his life than with the mother of his children. He needs to humble himself and hear her, really seek to understand where she is coming from, no matter how silly or immature she seems to him. 

For example, he could ask her why she has given up on her student loans. I am guessing she feels she is so far in the hole she can never get out. She probably feels enslaved. 

Well, she is not the only one in that predicament. And I would not be surprised if there will be changes to the system in the future because of what people like his wife are experiencing. I hope there will be changes that can help her.

He has to assure her that he is on her side. He has to take responsibility where he can. For example, he seemed to blame her for the decision they took together on her house. He blames her for her loans. Neither of those is going to make her feel they are in a partnership. Lifeistooshort tried to explain that to him.

Trying to put himself in the shoes of the oldest boy would help, too. This whole punishment scheme is questionable. Trying to understand him and build a relationship with him is where Z's effort should go. Sitting down with his wife and his oldest son and talking about what happened the other night, what everyone's feelings were and are about it would be helpful. No one was trying to upset the other. It is important to try to understand and not accuse. The trust towards Z is already low.


----------



## MEM2020

Far,
Likely the biggest mistake one can make in these situations - is confusing the subject. Making yourself the subject. 

We were doing this social thing with two other couples. Gets to the point we have to pick a restaurant. 

Flashback: Two days earlier we passed a Mexican place we had eaten at before and M2 asked if I wanted to eat there. I said, sure I'll make the steaks tomorrow. She said - oh right - you got us steaks. Let's eat those. 
-----

So I suggested the Mexican place. 

And she responded as if that was a dumb idea.

Just looked at her and said: You wanted to go their two days ago
And she said - oh - yeah that's true

------
Later just the two of us were in the car. And we had a very brief exchange. 

She asked if I was mad (I wasn't)
I just said: I thought you wanted to go there - was trying to be helpful - not sure why I got the 'dumb idea' tone.

She asked me - am I this rude frequently?
Told her she wasn't. 

As to why she did it - didn't ask. She didn't volunteer. 

The point is - it wasn't about me. She has some control / competitive issues. 

I KNOW Zdog is making some of this about him - because he yell so to the kids. You have made it about yourself - when you lose your temper.







farsidejunky said:


> When needed or merited, of course I am humble. Especially when I am in the wrong.
> 
> However, when my wife wants me to accept the unacceptable, humility has no part to play in the equation. That is also an important aspect of leadership.
> 
> There is more to it than just leading by example.
> 
> Edit: I would also like to point out that I asked a "how" question, to which you gave a "what" response.


----------



## turnera

ZDog377 said:


> I talked to her today and said something has to give. I understand kids are moody, but he just seems to fight even the slightest thing. As an example he knows he has to shower directly after his baseball game before he even thinks about watching TV. This way he gets it done before he falls asleep. He usually pushes it off and then it turns into the "I wasn't sleeping", then he complains about it again when we hound him again in the morning.
> 
> I told both of them (him and my wife) that we are starting a new method of punishment for him once school is out (roughly a week).


Why can't you just stay on top of him and turn OFF the tv or the computer or the phone until the shower is done? 

Oh, cos that would require you to be step in and be involved and spend valuable time on your kid.

Sheez.


----------



## ZDog377

turnera said:


> Why can't you just stay on top of him and turn OFF the tv or the computer or the phone until the shower is done?
> 
> Oh, cos that would require you to be step in and be involved and spend valuable time on your kid.
> 
> Sheez.


Where do you get that I'm not involved? Last night was the first baseball game I missed that wasn't due to work.......


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> Ignoring your sarcasm and disrespect . . .
> 
> It's not a formula, NF. And it may not be possible for everyone. And if you really want to understand what I am suggesting, please read _Seven Habits of Highly Effective People._
> 
> I would suggest he sit down with his wife and ask to hear all her grievances against him. Anything she wants to say, anyway she wants to say it. He just wants it all out, all on the table. He could take notes to look back on later.
> 
> There is no more important relationship in his life than with the mother of his children. He needs to humble himself and hear her, really seek to understand where she is coming from, no matter how silly or immature she seems to him.
> 
> For example, he could ask her why she has given up on her student loans. I am guessing she feels she is so far in the hole she can never get out. She probably feels enslaved.
> 
> Well, she is not the only one in that predicament. And I would not be surprised if there will be changes to the system in the future because of what people like his wife are experiencing. I hope there will be changes that can help her.
> 
> He has to assure her that he is on her side. He has to take responsibility where he can. For example, he seemed to blame her for the decision they took together on her house. He blames her for her loans. Neither of those is going to make her feel they are in a partnership. Lifeistooshort tried to explain that to him.
> 
> Trying to put himself in the shoes of the oldest boy would help, too. This whole punishment scheme is questionable. Trying to understand him and build a relationship with him is where Z's effort should go. Sitting down with his wife and his oldest son and talking about what happened the other night, what everyone's feelings were and are about it would be helpful. No one was trying to upset the other. It is important to try to understand and not accuse. The trust towards Z is already low.


I never blamed her for the decision on the house. It was a decision we came to together. She did buy the house before we started dating. Things that were obvious to me as to issues with it were not easy for her to see. She only saw that it was cheaper than what she was paying in rent. Also, she was almost done with her masters when we started dating. I tried explaining to her about the financial impact of the loans but her loans were already too far gone. She has explained she has given up on her loans because she would need to pay so much a month to even cover interest. Any amount under that is not making a dent in the amount.


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I never blamed her for the decision on the house. It was a decision we came to together. She did buy the house before we started dating. Things that were obvious to me as to issues with it were not easy for her to see. She only saw that it was cheaper than what she was paying in rent. Also, she was almost done with her masters when we started dating. I tried explaining to her about the financial impact of the loans but her loans were already too far gone. She has explained she has given up on her loans because she would need to pay so much a month to even cover interest. Any amount under that is not making a dent in the amount.


Have you gotten professional advice on that? Any gov't office that deals with that?

I have a hard time believing that they would not want to at least talk with your wife. There are too many people in similar situations for there not to be at least some opportunities to talk about her situation, and perhaps start some sort of payment plan, however modest.


----------



## jld

Do you know the amount of the inheritance she will be receiving? Have you talked with her about putting it on the loans?


----------



## ZDog377

I do not know the amount of the inheritance she will be receiving. When she had called before (can't remember exact time) about her loans, they told her the amount would be around 6-700/month. This was with her applying for Income Based Repayment (IBR) since we file taxes as married/jointly.


----------



## turnera

ZDog377 said:


> Where do you get that I'm not involved? Last night was the first baseball game I missed that wasn't due to work.......


Attending games isn't the same as being on top of your kids while they're in the house and ensuring they follow the rules - for their own good. Like I was lazy when DD25 was younger and I'd tell her to go upstairs and brush her teeth, instead of going up with her and ensuring she does it right. Now, she has teeth/gum issues because she never was forced to do it right.

If you were to stay on top of them to ensure they do what is expected, or not GET to have electronics until it's done...guess what they'd be doing?


----------



## ZDog377

So @jld, I had a heart to heart on the way home from Lowe's tonight with the oldest. Here are the problems he has with me:

1. I don't help enough with his homework
2. I don't let him play with his friends as often as he likes
3. I don't let his friends sleep over as often as he likes


----------



## MEM2020

Homework help is a great bonding thing. 




ZDog377 said:


> So @jld, I had a heart to heart on the way home from Lowe's tonight with the oldest. Here are the problems he has with me:
> 
> 1. I don't help enough with his homework
> 2. I don't let him play with his friends as often as he likes
> 3. I don't let his friends sleep over as often as he likes


----------



## john117

My experience has been that regardless of leadership someone off the wall will not see the error of their ways because their partner is a good leader.

I've been a successful team leader at work for 4+ years managing a dozen engineering and design people. My leadership at home is irrefutable going by results. If y'all think that my Looney Tunes partner somehow comprehends, let alone appreciates my leadership, I have some ocean front property south of Louisville to sell ya.

ZD's wife could be married to Peter Lynch of Fidelity Investments fame and she still would not comprehend the basics of money...


----------



## ZDog377

Holdingontoit said:


> Or you can play tit for tat. Next time she has plans and you are scheduled to be home with the kids, change your plans at the last minute and be away. You know "I felt like having a beer with Bill and watching the game, won't be home until 11 pm, have a nice evening with the kids". She will complain she had plans. You tell her to reschedule. She gets angry. You stay calm and say "I wanted a marriage where we help each other and coordinate our plans. You made it clear we don't have that kind of marriage. You apparently prefer a marriage where each person is out for himself. You made those ground rules, I am just playing your game. If you want a marriage where we coordinate plans and take turns, then you better start pulling your weight. Rescheduling your plans for tonight would be a good start." Then you hang up the phone, mute the ringer, and don't come home until 11.


I kind of like this idea. She scheduled a dinner out with some friends this upcoming Friday night. Of course I'm going to be home, but after getting up at 3 AM that morning for a flight. I think I might change my plans about an hour before hand and see how things go. 

This weekend has been a complete blow out. Got home Friday, picked up the kids so she could go grocery shopping, had a baseball game, came home went to bed. Woke up Saturday at 6 AM to work on the shed with the neighbor. Went to the a waterpark from 11:30 - 3. Got an awesome sunburn, came home and went to Lowes then went to bed. Got up today and did the same thing all over today. Up at 6 to work on the shed, baseball game at 4. She goes grocery shopping, falls asleep after me downstairs. I ask her to come upstairs with me, thinking maybe we could have some time together. She complains that our bed hurts her back that's why she was sleeping downstairs. 

Sorry for the rant, just slightly bitter right now......


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> So @jld, I had a heart to heart on the way home from Lowe's tonight with the oldest. Here are the problems he has with me:
> 
> 1. I don't help enough with his homework
> 2. I don't let him play with his friends as often as he likes
> 3. I don't let his friends sleep over as often as he likes


Are you asking me for help, or just informing me?


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> Are you asking me for help, or just informing me?


A little of both I guess. Doesn't hurt to get another opinion on things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> A little of both I guess. Doesn't hurt to get another opinion on things.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Okay. First thing, congrats that he is willing to talk to you, and be honest with you. Some kids would not do that. I think he also said recently that you do not spend enough time with him. That should also make you feel you are doing something right, that he wants to spend time with you.

I tried to stay as far away as possible from my dad my whole life. You never would have heard me saying anything like that to him.

So, thank him for being honest and communicating with you, however little it may seem. Ask him what he would see as ideal. If he wants to see friends all day, see if that might be possible once in a while. Ask him if he would not perhaps get bored or angry with friends if he were with them all the time.

And tell him you would miss him, too. 

It is a bummer that 10 year olds get homework. We homeschool, so do not have homework. I wonder if your wife might like homeschooling? That sure can bring a family together.


----------



## Tron

jld said:


> I wonder if your wife might like homeschooling? That sure can bring a family together.


Good luck with that. She won't get any ego kibbles from homeschool. That seems to be her priority over all else.


----------



## Cynthia

Tron said:


> Good luck with that. She won't get any ego kibbles from homeschool. That seems to be her priority over all else.


Not necessarily true. Most homeschoolers that I know are involved in groups. Some of the groups are extremely active and busy. The homeschool group I was involved in had a ton of things going on. She could get just as overloaded homeschooling as she is with the kids in public school. People drive their kids all over the place for various activities and they meet with lots of different people.

I'm not recommending homeschooling for your family. I think your wife needs to get a job and start paying off her loans. She needs to learn fiscal responsibility. I don't say that lightly. I've been a sahm and homeschooling mom for over 20 years.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

He was referring to her hunger for the position of PTO president.


----------



## ZDog377

So last night wasn't bad. My dad took the two little ones for a few days. We were able to spend some time together. Activities happened in the shower that she kind of initiated. We will see how things go this weekend.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> Okay. First thing, congrats that he is willing to talk to you, and be honest with you. Some kids would not do that. I think he also said recently that you do not spend enough time with him. That should also make you feel you are doing something right, that he wants to spend time with you.
> 
> I tried to stay as far away as possible from my dad my whole life. You never would have heard me saying anything like that to him.
> 
> So, thank him for being honest and communicating with you, however little it may seem. Ask him what he would see as ideal. If he wants to see friends all day, see if that might be possible once in a while. Ask him if he would not perhaps get bored or angry with friends if he were with them all the time.
> 
> And tell him you would miss him, too.
> 
> It is a bummer that 10 year olds get homework. We homeschool, so do not have homework. I wonder if your wife might like homeschooling? That sure can bring a family together.


There are days when he is with friends most of the day. He's complaining because there will be times I will ask for his help on something and tell him he can go to the friends house or they can come over after we are done. Sometimes I need his help for a few minutes or a couple hours. After the friend is over for a few hours, they start to argue over every little thing. To me it seems like he is mad that 
he can't do what he wants all the time. We let him have a friend stay over probably once a month, maybe twice. 

He also added that he feels like we treat him horrible. That one stung a little.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Did he give specifics?


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> Did he give specifics?


If I understood it right, I believe those three reasons are why he feels we both (wife and I) treat him horribly.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

Although I could be wrong, I am not seeing it. 

Could this just be manipulation?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Tron said:


> Although I could be wrong, I am not seeing it.
> 
> Could this just be manipulation?


I would take time to assess whether he is manipulating or just limited in his expression. 

Accountability is not horrible treatment.

Keep that in mind.


----------



## MEM2020

Z,
Blossom has a wealth of useful experience in this area and likely can help you.

I'm just going to throw out one observation to consider when parenting. 

So let's for the moment - just ask ourselves - what happens when we encounter excellent customer service? Typically - we feel happy AND we want to cooperate with the person helping us. 

All excellent customer service is predicated on the provider:
- Making you feel important
- Making it obvious they WANT to help you

As soon as you take a shower, you can play your game
Vs
You can't play your game until you shower

Same with:
As soon as you finish your homework you can play, if you need any help let me know
Vs
You can't play your game til your homework is done







Blossom Leigh said:


> I would take time to assess whether he is manipulating or just limited in his expression.
> 
> Accountability is not horrible treatment.
> 
> Keep that in mind.


----------



## ZDog377

MEM11363 said:


> Z,
> Blossom has a wealth of useful experience in this area and likely can help you.
> 
> I'm just going to throw out one observation to consider when parenting.
> 
> So let's for the moment - just ask ourselves - what happens when we encounter excellent customer service? Typically - we feel happy AND we want to cooperate with the person helping us.
> 
> All excellent more us timer service is predicated on the provider:
> - Making you feel important
> - Making it obvious they WANT to help you
> 
> As soon as you take a shower, you can play your game
> Vs
> You can't play your game until you shower
> 
> Same with:
> As soon as you finish your homework you can play, if you need any help let me know
> Vs
> You can't play your game til your homework is done


Its hard because he will be 11 in December and these are things we have been having him do since he was little. We always get into discussions with him because he always feels he has to be first with anything. I feel he is slightly high strung? Just like his mother, he always has to be busy. Even in the car he has to 
be occupied with something......
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Holdingontoit

We understand that it frustrates you when the child does not behave the way you desire for him to behave. Several people here are trying to give you tools to help the child see it is in his best interest to behave in the way you desire. You can try using these tools. Or not. But continuing to simply demand the child conform with your desires and then expressing outrage at the continued refusal is unlikely to get the result you want. Some children have difficulty sitting still and doing "nothing". Some children are more resistant to parental demands. Simply restating the demands in a louder or in a harsher tone is unlikely to be effective with such children. Try another technique. Several were offered above.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

@MEM11363

Thanks MEM


----------



## john117

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*

Dr. John's kid homework motivation method:

1. If you have the right kid, no action is needed. Buy an iPad and browse the web while the kid does his/her work.

2. If you don't have the right kid, no matter the action it won't be enough at some point. Buy an iPad and browse the web while the kid does everything but his/her work.

You need to get the kid interested in learning. Threats or gifts don't work. Do the museum's or library's or learning vacations and talk to them. Insist on well rounded kids, not simply what you like or think it's important. 

Also show interest in what the kid likes and nudge them academically when needed... but don't push. When I saw DD1 draw correct 3D perspective in 1st grade I figured she had a talent for design. I helped develop it, classes, trips, etc and by high school she was entering art competitions and doing well. She's a grad student in Design in a top school. DD2 was a lot easier to figure out (Neurobiology / French major for pre-med in a top school as well) and needed no nudging whatsoever.

At ten or eleven he should have some interests. At that age mine was model airplanes. Almost went to engineering. Kids respond well when they can see the big picture. When they see what's in it for them. 

Above all you build a healthy relationship with them. Regardless of mom.


----------



## ZDog377

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



john117 said:


> Dr. John's kid homework motivation method:
> 
> 1. If you have the right kid, no action is needed. Buy an iPad and browse the web while the kid does his/her work.
> 
> 2. If you don't have the right kid, no matter the action it won't be enough at some point. Buy an iPad and browse the web while the kid does everything but his/her work.
> 
> You need to get the kid interested in learning. Threats or gifts don't work. Do the museum's or library's or learning vacations and talk to them. Insist on well rounded kids, not simply what you like or think it's important.
> 
> Also show interest in what the kid likes and nudge them academically when needed... but don't push. When I saw DD1 draw correct 3D perspective in 1st grade I figured she had a talent for design. I helped develop it, classes, trips, etc and by high school she was entering art competitions and doing well. She's a grad student in Design in a top school. DD2 was a lot easier to figure out (Neurobiology / French major for pre-med in a top school as well) and needed no nudging whatsoever.
> 
> At ten or eleven he should have some interests. At that age mine was model airplanes. Almost went to engineering. Kids respond well when they can see the big picture. When they see what's in it for them.
> 
> Above all you build a healthy relationship with them. Regardless of mom.


His biggest interests right now seem to be sports and video games. We will go out and play catch and things like that. I feel he has taken too much of a liking to video games at times (knows way too much about shooting games). I got him a programming book because I thought he would be interested in learning how to make video games......no go on that. I guess it will just take time.....


----------



## ZDog377

So we just had a conversation about her being super involved again. I asked her if she could cut back on it and she still doesn't see what the issue is. She sees me asking for her to cut back as me being controlling and wanting to know where she is all the time. She said that she will be involved in one way or another until our youngest graduates from school. 

She has at least cut back on doing things on the weekend when I am home. However, this means she is beat on the weekends because she is trying to cram things in during the week. She says that she is doing things for the family when doing it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ZDog377 said:


> His biggest interests right now seem to be sports and video games. We will go out and play catch and things like that. I feel he has taken too much of a liking to video games at times (knows way too much about shooting games). I got him a programming book because I thought he would be interested in learning how to make video games......no go on that. I guess it will just take time.....


He also needs a building or a learning or culture hobby. Too early for programming but look up Lego Mindstorm or similar.

Both my daughters were ace gamers in their teens 😂 btw. Also look up Kumon math.


----------



## turnera

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ZDog377 said:


> His biggest interests right now seem to be sports and video games. We will go out and play catch and things like that. I feel he has taken too much of a liking to video games at times (knows way too much about shooting games). I got him a programming book because I thought he would be interested in learning how to make video games......no go on that. I guess it will just take time.....


Bullshyte.

My DD25 had a 30-minute limit per day on electronics until 9th grade, 1-hour limit per day on weekends. In high school, she had a 1-hour limit per day on weekdays, 2 hours per day on weekends. I told her what the limit was, and when she hit the limit, I walked up to her electronics of choice for the day and UNPLUGGED IT.

Because I was her parent. Because I didn't care if she was ok with it - she was the child, I was the parent.

She, too, got involved in games, etc. I said, 'too bad. Your limit is up.' And I unplugged the electronics.

THAT IS WHAT PARENTS DO.

DD25's interests were electronics and sports, too. I informed her of what her limit per day would be on the electronics, and also informed her that I was there, 24/7, to do sports with her. (as well as books, her other love) Since she had a limit on electronics, she knew full well that I was there 24/7 to do any kind of sports with her, which had no limit.

And guess what? Kids want one thing more than anything else - an involved parent.


----------



## Tortdog

Same here. Limits. Parenting. But it does help a lot if both parents see eye to eye and are supportive of each other. 

And just because a kid likes video games means diddly squat as to whether he wants to write a program. It's a nice try though.


----------



## jld

Your wife and son have different needs than you do, Z. My husband says they are extroverts. No wonder they want so much interaction with other people. It energizes them.

Are you familiar with Myers-Briggs? Doing some reading on it could help you learn to appreciate the nature of both of them, and learn to work with it. Their being different from you does not make them bad in some way. If we were all the same, the world would be boring.

If I were you, I would try to relax. Try not to force them into what you want them to be. Focusing on supporting their interests will yield more results and a better relationship with each.

It really is a shame you and your wife have that school debt hanging over your heads. You have known about it for the length of the relationship, the last eight years, correct?

If so, then I am not giving you a pass. Not for the house, either. You were part and parcel of the decision to let it go into foreclosure. You two are in all of this together. 

Your son sounds very normal, btw. I am on my third ten year old boy here, with another coming up in a few years, and they all enjoy playing with friends and video games. 

My 17 year old, when he was 10, literally lay on the floor one day crying because he did not want to do his math. I still remember it. We were living in India and Dug had taken the day off work. I was out shopping and came home to the baby on Dug's lap, the other boys playing near him, and our oldest boy moaning on the floor. Dug was just looking at him. Our son had no desire whatsoever to do his math.

Fast forward to today. Ds gets up every morning and starts in on calculus, followed by physics. He is considering majoring in computer science when he heads off to college in a year.

And those two little brothers you have given your oldest son? Probably two of the best gifts you could ever have given him, besides providing for him financially and loving his mother. 

Our oldest boy has learned a ton of responsibility from having 3 little brothers. He has to help them whether he wants to or not. That is just life in a big family. And they all look up to him, even as they complain about him. It has made him a better person than he would have been without that responsibility. I am convinced of that.

Back to the homeschooling, Z. Did you ask your wife if she were interested in it?


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> Your wife and son have different needs than you do, Z. My husband says they are extroverts. No wonder they want so much interaction with other people. It energizes them.
> 
> Are you familiar with Myers-Briggs? Doing some reading on it could help you learn to appreciate the nature of both of them, and learn to work with it. Their being different from you does not make them bad in some way. If we were all the same, the world would be boring.
> 
> If I were you, I would try to relax. Try not to force them into what you want them to be. Focusing on supporting their interests will yield more results and a better relationship with each.
> 
> It really is a shame you and your wife have that school debt hanging over your heads. You have known about it for the length of the relationship, the last eight years, correct?
> 
> If so, then I am not giving you a pass. Not for the house, either. You were part and parcel of the decision to let it go into foreclosure. You two are in all of this together.
> 
> Your son sounds very normal, btw. I am on my third ten year old boy here, with another coming up in a few years, and they all enjoy playing with friends and video games.
> 
> My 17 year old, when he was 10, literally lay on the floor one day crying because he did not want to do his math. I still remember it. We were living in India and Dug had taken the day off work. I was out shopping and came home to the baby on Dug's lap, the other boys playing near him, and our oldest boy moaning on the floor. Dug was just looking at him. Our son had no desire whatsoever to do his math.
> 
> Fast forward to today. Ds gets up every morning and starts in on calculus, followed by physics. He is considering majoring in computer science when he heads off to college in a year.
> 
> And those two little brothers you have given your oldest son? Probably two of the best gifts you could ever have given him, besides providing for him financially and loving his mother.
> 
> Our oldest boy has learned a ton of responsibility from having 3 little brothers. He has to help them whether he wants to or not. That is just life in a big family. And they all look up to him, even as they complain about him. It has made him a better person than he would have been without that responsibility. I am convinced of that.
> 
> Back to the homeschooling, Z. Did you ask your wife if she were interested in it?



She has mentioned before that she would like to home school/cyber school the kids. 

Yes, I have known about the loans the whole marriage. She was paying in them early on but when she became a sahm she stopped. Yes, the house was a joint decision for her to declare bankruptcy. It was the only way we could get out from under the house. If I would have been involved in the first house buying decision, I wouldn't have let her buy it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tortdog

Had no idea that there was a school to teach kids to cyber.


----------



## jld

Tortdog said:


> Had no idea that there was a school to teach kids to cyber.


He means online public school "homeschooling," paid for by the taxpayers.

Homeschooling is paid for by the parents.


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> She has mentioned before that she would like to home school/cyber school the kids.


What is holding her back?

It is a great investment in the family, Z. I don't think you would ever regret it. And the rewards are tremendous. It is easily one of the best decisions Dug and I ever made.



> Yes, I have known about the loans the whole marriage. She was paying in them early on but when she became a sahm she stopped. Yes, the house was a joint decision for her to declare bankruptcy. It was the only way we could get out from under the house. If I would have been involved in the first house buying decision, I wouldn't have let her buy it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Glad to hear this.

Have you gotten professional advice on the loan situation yet? I mean, face to face, documents in front of you, professional advice? That will make all of this more real to your wife.


----------



## MarriedTex

The elephant in the room is her school loans. They will be an anchor around your family's neck forever, and she's willfully ignoring her commitments in this area. It's nice to go an play PTA Super-Mom, but you must realize she's doing so at the cost of your family's financial future. 

There will be times when your family wants to do things financially and you are limited by her lack of action on her school loans. You and her need to find some type of financial advisor who can lay the facts on the table and explain the consequences resulting from her inattention to this. Just ignoring the problem won't make it go away. It will make it get worse. It's sad that she won't have as much time to devote to kids' school activities, but that's the way it is.

What's the word that describes this .....oh yeah, they're called "consequences." Right now, the only one likely to be sacrificing for her prior poor decisions is YOU.


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## ZDog377

@jld, I understand my wife and son being different. My middle son is more like me. I don't mind them wanting to be around people, it bothers me when that need affects things going on. For example, she isnt happy with staying at home because she needs to many things that need done. I like staying at home and getting things done because I take pride in my house. I want the yard to look nice, the outside to be clean, etc....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedTex

ZDog377 said:


> @jld, I understand my wife and son being different. My middle son is more like me. I don't mind them wanting to be around people, it bothers me when that need affects things going on. For example, she isnt happy with staying at home because she needs to many things that need done. I like staying at home and getting things done because I take pride in my house. I want the yard to look nice, the outside to be clean, etc....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sure she wants the yard to look nice, the outside to be clean etc. - as long as somebody else is doing the work. That somebody would be ZDog.

You got your head on your shoulders right, Zdog. Your priorities are in order. Your wife does not share your priorities. It is your job to set boundaries of behavior that are acceptable to you. If you don't do it now, it will be difficult / impossible to change her behavior later. The train wreck that your life / relationship will become can be seen plain as day - years ahead of its implosion. After years of placating the princess, you will grow tired of it and you will explode. Worst part is, you will be seen as the "bad guy" for breaking up such a "beautiful wonderful family" as seen by outsiders.

If you keep enabling her behavior, you either have to learn to accept what she does or set boundaries with consequences when she veers into territory unacceptable to you. Without action, you will literally spend the next decade filling up her "entitlement bucket." Good luck with that.


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> @jld, I understand my wife and son being different. My middle son is more like me. I don't mind them wanting to be around people, it bothers me when that need affects things going on. For example, she isnt happy with staying at home because she needs to many things that need done. I like staying at home and getting things done because I take pride in my house. I want the yard to look nice, the outside to be clean, etc....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Give way to her where you can, Z. Stay firm where it is in her and the kids' long term best interests.

Iow, be the husband and father, Z.


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## Blossom Leigh

I think the issue is giving in too much, not giving in too little.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

We lose respect for people who don't have high (but reasonable) standards.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Zdog.... cultivate your vision for how you want things to be.

Then practice being particular without being critical.

What could you ask of your wife and your son which honors a standard you cherish without making them feel "less than" AND without you giving in over resistance?


----------



## john117

Blossom, you must have missed my diatribe on the futility of vision and leadership when dealing with some people....

This isn't the Alfred P Sloan school of management....


----------



## Blossom Leigh

john117 said:


> Blossom, you must have missed my diatribe on the futility of vision and leadership when dealing with some people....
> 
> This isn't the Alfred P Sloan school of management....


LOL, no I didnt miss it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cynthia

turnera said:


> Bullshyte.
> 
> My DD25 had a 30-minute limit per day on electronics until 9th grade, 1-hour limit per day on weekends. In high school, she had a 1-hour limit per day on weekdays, 2 hours per day on weekends. I told her what the limit was, and when she hit the limit, I walked up to her electronics of choice for the day and UNPLUGGED IT.
> 
> Because I was her parent. Because I didn't care if she was ok with it - she was the child, I was the parent.
> 
> She, too, got involved in games, etc. I said, 'too bad. Your limit is up.' And I unplugged the electronics.
> 
> THAT IS WHAT PARENTS DO.
> 
> DD25's interests were electronics and sports, too. I informed her of what her limit per day would be on the electronics, and also informed her that I was there, 24/7, to do sports with her. (as well as books, her other love) Since she had a limit on electronics, she knew full well that I was there 24/7 to do any kind of sports with her, which had no limit.
> 
> And guess what? Kids want one thing more than anything else - an involved parent.


I agree with this in principle, but I do have a problem with unplugging it mid-game. That can provoke anger and resentment in a child. Something that helped with my kids was a timer. If they get really caught up in the game, they may not notice the time, but if the timer is set with five minutes left to play, then they have a warning and can wrap it up. The idea is to work with the child, not to control him, but to teach self-control while teaching healthy behaviors and limits.


----------



## turnera

Cynthia, that's what I did. That's part of Authoritative Parenting: you tell them what's about to happen, you give them a warning, and then, if they don't shut down, they KNOW that it was their own choice that left them in mid-game. That's what teaches them to control themselves. And removes their ability to blame you.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> Cynthia, that's what I did. That's part of Authoritative Parenting: you tell them what's about to happen, you give them a warning, and then, if they don't shut down, they KNOW that it was their own choice that left them in mid-game. That's what teaches them to control themselves. And removes their ability to blame you.


What if your decisions are not wise? Couldn't they blame/resent you for that?


----------



## Cynthia

jld said:


> What if your decisions are not wise? Couldn't they blame/resent you for that?


Not answering for Tunera, just chiming in on this.
Kids can always resent their parents whether what their parents did was right or not. As parents we must do what we believe is right for our children and not worry about whether or not they agree. They will probably disagree with a lot until they mature and can see and hopefully they will have grace for the areas where we, as parents, erred. It has to all come from a foundation of lovingkindness and wanting what is best for the children. No anger should be involved. Simply, firm boundaries laid with love and carried out with kindness.


----------



## jld

CynthiaDe said:


> Not answering for Tunera, just chiming in on this.
> Kids can always resent their parents whether what their parents did was right or not. *As parents we must do what we believe is right for our children and not worry about whether or not they agree.* They will probably disagree with a lot until they mature and can see and hopefully they will have grace for the areas where we, as parents, erred. It has to all come from a foundation of lovingkindness and wanting what is best for the children. No anger should be involved. Simply, firm boundaries laid with love and carried out with kindness.


No room for their questioning our decisions, correcting possible errors in our thinking as we go along, saving us time and trouble later on?


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## Fozzy

jld said:


> No room for their questioning our decisions, correcting possible errors in our thinking as we go along, saving us time and trouble later on?


Depends on the child I think. Some kids have inherent wisdom. I have one like that. 

Some other kids are crazy. I have two like that.

Be open to questioning, but don't feel the need to explain yourself or your decision. You have the final say, and kids need that base of authority.


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## turnera

Adults are capable (usually) of seeing right from wrong; smart vs stupid; using experience to guide decisions. Kids? Not so much. Erego, it's a parent's job to make those decisions most likely to protect the child, guide the child, and show the child why that decision was best. 

Barring stupid or mentally unstable parents, I'll pick the parents' decision over the kids' every day and not fret it.

So I don't worry too much about unwise decisions; odds are, MY decisions will be smarter than my teenager's.

And the years have borne that out - my DD25 has verified that the decisions I made 'back then' were the right things to do. That she was acting like a typical teenager, thought she knew better, and then learned differently.

fwiw, as per Authoritative Parenting, I gave my DD the opportunity to 'persuade' me differently. I always allowed her to state her case on every situation; sometimes I even changed my mind because she had details I didn't have.


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## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> What if your decisions are not wise? Couldn't they blame/resent you for that?


A kid can resent or blame you for even wise decisions.

Its why you dont bank your parenting skills entirely on your kids perception. Self assess well, but at the end of the day stand in your beliefs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> A kid can resent or blame you for even wise decisions.
> 
> Its why you dont bank your parenting skills entirely on your kids perception. Self assess well, but *at the end of the day stand in your beliefs.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Isn't that what your mother did, Blossom?


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> *Adults are capable (usually) of seeing right from wrong; smart vs stupid; using experience to guide decisions.* Kids? Not so much. Erego, it's a parent's job to make those decisions most likely to protect the child, guide the child, and show the child why that decision was best.
> 
> Barring stupid or mentally unstable parents, I'll pick the parents' decision over the kids' every day and not fret it.
> 
> So I don't worry too much about unwise decisions; odds are, MY decisions will be smarter than my teenager's.
> 
> And the years have borne that out - my DD25 has verified that the decisions I made 'back then' were the right things to do. That she was acting like a typical teenager, thought she knew better, and then learned differently.
> 
> fwiw, as per Authoritative Parenting, I gave my DD the opportunity to 'persuade' me differently. I always allowed her to state her case on every situation; sometimes I even changed my mind because she had details I didn't have.


And yet we see adults everyday on these boards making wrong, stupid decisions.

I do agree with your last paragraph.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Isn't that what your mother did, Blossom?


You want to try that question again Peaches... I dont think you want to go there.

True to her Narcissistic severe bent she never self assessed well, so, NO, that is not what she did. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> You want to try that question again Peaches... I dont think you want to go there.
> 
> True to her Narcissistic severe bent she never self assessed well, so, NO, that is not what she did.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


At the end of the day she stood on her beliefs. She undoubtedly thought what she was doing was right and proper.

My point is that we parents can be sure of ourselves . . . and still be wrong. Listening to our kids' pov, genuinely trying to see where they are coming from, is a safeguard against that.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> At the end of the day she stood on her beliefs. She undoubtedly thought what she was doing was right and proper.
> 
> My point is that we parents can be sure of ourselves . . . and still be wrong. Listening to our kids' pov, genuinely trying to see where they are coming from, is a safeguard against that.


I know what your point was AND your aim.

So without proper self assessment no one can stand on proper beliefs.

So back away, jld
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

Blossom,

Using basic DSM criteria, what your mother did was abusive. Threatening to kick a young child out of the house - that's - classic disordered personality power plays. 

I think the key issues here are:
- Zdog and wife need to agree to a consistent parenting style
- They ought to write it down and when in full agreement with each other, give it to their child

For instance - showering before playing video games after being active. 

And losing gaming priviledges for - various infractions. 

That said - tone rules. The goal is constructive engagement. He needs to feel like they WANT the good outcome. And really prefer not to take away priviledges. 

But Zdog needs to accept that yelling is a show of weakness, not strength. 

I taught M2 this thing - the kids would go tonal on either of us - and suddenly the other would appear - standing shoulder to shoulder with the parent being harshed - and in a calm voice would ask: Why do you think it is ok to speak to your mother/father like that?





Blossom Leigh said:


> You want to try that question again Peaches... I dont think you want to go there.
> 
> True to her Narcissistic severe bent she never self assessed well, so, NO, that is not what she did.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

MEM11363 said:


> Blossom,
> 
> Using basic DSM criteria, what your mother did was abusive. Threatening to kick a young child out of the house - that's - classic disordered personality power plays.
> 
> I think the key issues here are:
> - Zdog and wife need to agree to a consistent parenting style
> - They ought to write it down and when in full agreement with each other, give it to their child
> 
> For instance - showering before playing video games after being active.
> 
> And losing gaming priviledges for - various infractions.
> 
> That said - tone rules. The goal is constructive engagement. He needs to feel like they WANT the good outcome. And really prefer not to take away priviledges.
> 
> But Zdog needs to accept that yelling is a show of weakness, not strength.
> 
> I taught M2 this thing - the kids would go tonal on either of us - and suddenly the other would appear - standing shoulder to shoulder with the parent being harshed - and in a calm voice would ask: Why do you think it is ok to speak to your mother/father like that?


Agree with all of the above. Especially love the last question. That would be highly effective.

And yes, my mother was severely abusive. Still is to this day.

One of my counselors heard ONE part of my story and said it was THE worst case of emotional abuse he had ever heard. Thats when he used the term Malignant Narcissist to describe her and all the pieces fell into place for me. Not only was she a Narcissist, she was a very aggressive form of it. So to try to fit her into a "normal" mold does not work. She is disordered without question. So thank you for calling that straight MEM. Very appreciated. No one would consider a woman who can abandon her four month old innocent grandson without blinking an eye as anywhere in the realm of normal and someone who self assesses well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Personal

MEM11363 said:


> Blossom,
> 
> Using basic DSM criteria, what your mother did was abusive. Threatening to kick a young child out of the house - that's - classic disordered personality power plays.


From a young age as a disciplinary measure, my mother would often threaten to kick me out, send me to a home, or get me sent to jail.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Personal said:


> From a young age as a disciplinary measure, my mother would often threaten to kick me out, send me to a home, or get me sent to jail.


Add in cutting me out of the family and specifically naming the one I was closest too, my Grandpa. That she would make sure I never saw him again. It was a brutal form of control.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I dont think Zdog is dealing with a disordered wife, just a spoiled one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Personal

Blossom Leigh said:


> Add in cutting me out of the family and specifically naming the one I was closests too, my Grandpa. That she would make sure I never saw him again. It was a brutal form of control.


You to, wow!

I got that a few times as well with respect to my Granddad, her father. Whom I loved enormously, he was one of the most wonderful of people that I have ever met. My wife also remembers him fondly as well.

Apologies for the diversion @ZDog377.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Personal said:


> You to, wow!
> 
> I got that a few times as well with respect to my Granddad, her father. Whom I loved enormously, he was one of the most wonderful of people that I have ever met. My wife also remembers him fondly as well.
> 
> Apologies for the diversion @ZDog377.


Ditto Z. 

I hate it for any of us who went through that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

> At the end of the day she stood on her beliefs. She undoubtedly thought what she was doing was right and proper.
> 
> My point is that we parents can be sure of ourselves . . . and still be wrong. Listening to our kids' pov, genuinely trying to see where they are coming from, is a safeguard against that.


You obviously missed the part in my posts where I said to welcome the child to push their case, so I could listen to it, and then decide if they had valid point.

Authoritative Parenting involved setting rules and consequences, and then listening to kids' arguments about whether the rules are fair.

If the kid has a good argument...great, change the rules. 

If the kid hasn't worked that hard to come up with a good argument, the rule stands.

Great way to teach the kid to start standing up for himself/herself as an adult.


----------



## Cynthia

jld said:


> No room for their questioning our decisions, correcting possible errors in our thinking as we go along, saving us time and trouble later on?


Children should seek understanding and clarification, but should not argue with their parents. I don't believe parents should justify their decisions to the their children. I don't think it's healthy. I do think that children should be allowed to respectfully ask questions and seek understanding and they should be allowed to share their point of view uninterrupted. Children need to be heard and their opinion considered valid, but a parent should not be in a position to justify their decisions.
As children grow and mature, they should be given more responsibility and more ability to decide for themselves. They should be given the responsibility and decision making that is appropriate for their developmental level. They should be free to ask questions, but not to argue.
It is important that it is demonstrated to the child that the parent has the child's best interest at heart. It's not a matter of convenience or selfishness for the parents, but truly seeking what is best for the child. The child should be taught this from an early age. It's a matter of trust and mutual caring.

Edit to add: Children should also be able to share information that their parents might not have. They should also be able to share their point of view. It really is important that children feel heard and valued, but they also need to realize that their parents have much more knowledge, understanding, and wisdom than they do and to trust that their parents will do what is best.
Of course a lot of people are terrible parents and make dumb decisions, but those people are not going to parent like this, because they lack the skill to do so. Their families will be dysfunctional.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> You obviously missed the part in my posts where I said to welcome the child to push their case, so I could listen to it, and then decide if they had valid point.


No, I said it right here:



jld said:


> And yet we see adults everyday on these boards making wrong, stupid decisions.
> 
> *I do agree with your last paragraph*.


And I still firmly believe that a parent can be convinced the stand they are taking with their kids is right, while being completely wrong. I think there is great danger to a lack of humility and a true willingness to seek to understand in a parent.

Same is true for spouses.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> No, I said it right here:
> 
> 
> 
> And I still firmly believe that a parent can be convinced the stand they are taking with their kids is right, while being completely wrong. I think there is great danger to a lack of humility and a true willingness to seek to understand in a parent.
> 
> Same is true for spouses.


Standing in beliefs is not necessarily lacking in humility. Standing in belief WHEN humility is lacking is what is so destructive. That is what my mother did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Standing in beliefs is not necessarily lacking in humility. *Standing in belief WHEN humility is lacking is what is so destructive. *That is what my mother did.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I completely believe that can be destructive, Blossom. Especially so when there is a lack of wisdom in the parent or the spouse. And that is why the advice of "Stand in your beliefs" raises a red flag, at least to me.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I completely believe that can be destructive, Blossom. Especially so when there is a lack of wisdom in the parent or the spouse. *And that is why the advice of "Stand in your beliefs" raises a red flag*, at least to me.


So basically you are saying that all of us who are advising Zdog to stand in his beliefs are wrong for advising that because he "might" lack wisdom.

How noble of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> So basically you are saying that all of us who are advising Zdog to stand in his beliefs are wrong for advising that because he "might" lack wisdom.
> 
> How noble of you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He is here seeking wisdom. I don't think he is necessarily being given wisdom.


----------



## Tortdog

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*

I approach it like a court room. The attorney can put forward an argument to the judge, but the judge does not argue with the attorney.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> He is here seeking wisdom. I don't think he is necessarily being given wisdom.


Unbelievable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I completely believe that can be destructive, Blossom. Especially so when there is a lack of wisdom in the parent or the spouse. And that is why the advice of "Stand in your beliefs" raises a red flag, at least to me.


Do you see the irony?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Do you see the irony?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


No. Please explain.


----------



## Tron

ZDog377 said:


> She has at least cut back on doing things on the weekend when I am home. However, this means she is beat on the weekends because she is trying to cram things in during the week. She says that she is doing things for the family when doing it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She is going to make all sorts of arguments to justify her actions. I don't think you are out of line pointing out to her that the family would rather her spend time around the house doing things with them or working to pay off her loans.

The PTO stuff is quite clearly being used to feed her ego not the family.

Don't argue, just point out your truth.


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> No. Please explain.


You are lecturing someone about their parenting while standing in their beliefs, by standing in your own beliefs.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> You are lecturing someone about their parenting while standing in their beliefs, by standing in your own beliefs.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Without humility I might add.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> You are lecturing someone about their parenting while standing in their beliefs, by standing in your own beliefs.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


So whenever we share our opinions, we are "standing in our beliefs"?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> So whenever we share our opinions, we are "standing in our beliefs"?


Here comes the gaslighting farside...

Zdog... The intentions behind this thread jack should be utterly ignored. They are not on the up and up. 

Pm me if you need some help. I'm out until jld stops this thread jack.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



jld said:


> So whenever we share our opinions, we are "standing in our beliefs"?


Wait, I thought that's what you suggested?

Edit: just reread, and that was BL'S term.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &amp;quot;touched out&amp;quot;*

In answer to your question, your opinion is formed by your beliefs, no?

You're not suggesting you're sharing something you don't believe in, are you?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## ZDog377

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



Tortdog said:


> I approach it like a court room. The attorney can put forward an argument to the judge, but the judge does not argue with the attorney.


I agree completely. I tell him that is one of the things that frustrates me. I explain that I've been around a lot longer than him. I don't mind him presenting an argument but when he starts being disrespectful, that's where I draw the line.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Wait, I thought that's what you suggested?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I didn't use the phrase. Reading it concerned me mostly because it seemed to me to indicate a limited openness towards the child's viewpoint. I think that limited openness limits a parent's effectiveness in building a relationship with the child. 

I realize this is vague. The nuance is hard to describe. Perhaps one way to explain it is that there is a difference between 1) parents seeking wisdom together with their children and 2) working off the idea that they already have it, and it must simply be accepted by the children.

Zdog, I think parents need to work with their children more than taking a hard line with them, especially when there is a history of dysfunction in the family. Parents do not always know best. And not all parents are wise. Same goes for spouses.

My advice to you, overall, is to seek to understand your wife and son. Try to look through their eyes. You already know they are different from you. Different things energize them than energize you. That is unlikely to change. Try to work with it rather than trying to stomp it out. Stomping it out is unlikely to work.

I think your wife is a great mom. Definitely dedicated to her kids. I am very sorry she was allowed to get herself so in debt in pursuing education. I do not understand why our society allows that. It could be so different.


----------



## Laila8

ZDog,

I read your entire thread. I am sorry you are going through this with your wife. You are a good provider, an involved parent /step-parent, and a thoughtful, caring husband. Let me just tell you something. I am a SAHM to 4 kids. Their ages are 5, 3, 1, and 1. I am still breastfeeding the one year old twins. And guess what? I still want to have sex with my hub, ideally 2-3 times per week. If he were gone out of town all week, I'd be practically jumping on him when he came home on weekends, so happy and grateful for his safe homecoming. I think it's really crappy how your wife treats you. She barely tolerates you, it seems, and she certainly doesn't seem to want to improve the marriage.


----------



## jld

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ZDog377 said:


> I agree completely. I tell him that is one of the things that frustrates me. I explain that I've been around a lot longer than him. I don't mind him presenting an argument but when he starts being disrespectful, that's where I draw the line.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



My daughter is 21, Z, a junior finishing up her third year of chemical engineering. When she was a freshman, she told me she sometimes feels angry with the advice I give her. But she said she listens anyway, because, in her words, "You have a lot more life experience than I do, Mom, and you're usually right."

That is earned, Z. 

As for disrespectful speech, try, "I feel hurt when I hear that." Putting it in the context of vulnerability can move a person's heart to compassion rather than inspiring defensiveness.


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> I didn't use the phrase. Reading it concerned me mostly because it seemed to me to indicate a limited openness towards the child's viewpoint. I think that limited openness limits a parent's effectiveness in building a relationship with the child.
> 
> I realize this is vague. The nuance is hard to describe. Perhaps one way to explain it is that there is a difference between 1) parents seeking wisdom together with their children and 2) working off the idea that they already have it, and it must simply be accepted by the children.
> 
> Zdog, I think parents need to work with their children more than taking a hard line with them, especially when there is a history of dysfunction in the family. Parents do not always know best. And not all parents are wise. Same goes for spouses.
> 
> My advice to you, overall, is to seek to understand your wife and son. Try to look through their eyes. You already know they are different from you. Different things energize them than energize you. That is unlikely to change. Try to work with it rather than trying to stomp it out. Stomping it out is unlikely to work.
> 
> I think your wife is a great mom. Definitely dedicated to her kids. I am very sorry she was allowed to get herself so in debt in pursuing education. I do not understand why our society allows that. It could be so different.


Do you agree though that she does not seem to be dedicated to us as a couple? 

I don't hold her 100% to blame for her education debt. I do feel she deserves at least a 50% share of the blame though. I have discussed earlier in the thread how I went about figuring out my college finances.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> Do you agree though that she does not seem to be dedicated to us as a couple?


I think it is more that she is unwilling to hold the marriage together at all costs, Z. And I think that is a wise position for a woman to take.

Inspiring her dedication, or perhaps better said, her trust, will help you grow and mature as a man. Please do not miss out on that opportunity.



> I don't hold her 100% to blame for her education debt. I do feel she deserves at least a 50% share of the blame though. I have discussed earlier in the thread how I went about figuring out my college finances.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did her parents counsel her at all regarding school debt, Z? What financial example did they set for her overall?

The debt should have been addressed by both of you before you had children. That would have made life much simpler for you.

Though, perhaps the children were a surprise? I know you mentioned you both believed you were unable to father children. I am so glad for your family that that proved untrue.


----------



## MEM2020

Z,

She's consistent. Z2 signs up for stuff - loans, marriage, etc. and then does whatever she wants - regardless of the initial agreement.

Sometimes the truth is your best friend in these situations.

For me - I would say: I don't understand why you think it's ok to sign up for stuff - and then act like you didn't.

Loans require effort to repay. Marriages require effort - to succeed.

The PTO thing is something you choose to do for yourself. It isn't honest to describe it as something you are doing for our family. 

------
Thing is - I get this. Ten years into our marriage (15 years ago) M2 found a near full time volunteer job that made her feel 'important'.

I absolutely would have divorced her had she continued that 'activity'. 

And I say in all sincerity that - M2 absolutely equated that with me not supporting her - like she had 'supported my career' for a decade.

Just shrugged and told her: Only reason I do that job is it supports the five of us very nicely. I would definitely do a lower stress job if money wasn't a very real need of ours. Not willing to do THAT type job and come home and have to do a lot of housework because you are volunteering at a level highly disruptive to our routine.





ZDog377 said:


> Do you agree though that she does not seem to be dedicated to us as a couple?
> 
> I don't hold her 100% to blame for her education debt. I do feel she deserves at least a 50% share of the blame though. I have discussed earlier in the thread how I went about figuring out my college finances.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Zdog,
I want to be really clear about this though. Because it's a really big deal. At the time that happened I not only loved M2 I was in love with her. 

That said - I wasn't bluffing. I don't play poker - not my thing. 

We would have gotten divorced - not because I didn't love M2 - but rather because it was beginning to feel like she didn't value me enough to be a good partner to me.

I really don't like the idea of divorce. That said - if I had tried to do to M2 - what she was doing to us. She would have instantly shut it down.

There would have been no 'trial period' see if it was workable - which is what I gave her. It just would have been an immediate - no fvcking way are you doing that. 





MEM11363 said:


> Z,
> 
> She's consistent. Z2 signs up for stuff - loans, marriage, etc. and then does whatever she wants - regardless of the initial agreement.
> 
> Sometimes the truth is your best friend in these situations.
> 
> For me - I would say: I don't understand why you think it's ok to sign up for stuff - and then act like you didn't.
> 
> Loans require effort to repay. Marriages require effort - to succeed.
> 
> The PTO thing is something you choose to do for yourself. It isn't honest to describe it as something you are doing for our family.
> 
> ------
> Thing is - I get this. Ten years into our marriage (15 years ago) M2 found a near full time volunteer job that made her feel 'important'.
> 
> I absolutely would have divorced her had she continued that 'activity'.
> 
> And I say in all sincerity that - M2 absolutely equated that with me not supporting her - like she had 'supported my career' for a decade.
> 
> Just shrugged and told her: Only reason I do that job is it supports the five of us very nicely. I would definitely do a lower stress job if money wasn't a very real need of ours. Not willing to do THAT type job and come home and have to do a lot of housework because you are volunteering at a level highly disruptive to our routine.


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> I think it is more that she is unwilling to hold the marriage together at all costs, Z. And I think that is a wise position for a woman to take.
> 
> Inspiring her dedication, or perhaps better said, her trust, will help you grow and mature as a man. Please do not miss out on that opportunity.
> 
> 
> 
> Did her parents counsel her at all regarding school debt, Z? What financial example did they set for her overall?
> 
> The debt should have been addressed by both of you before you had children. That would have made life much simpler for you.
> 
> Though, perhaps the children were a surprise? I know you mentioned you both believed you were unable to father children. I am so glad for your family that that proved untrue.


Why is that a wise position for a woman to take? Without the husband, there would be no children. 

I know she didn't receive any college counseling from her parents, neither of them went to college. I did not receive any counseling from my parents either, other than them telling me that they could not afford to help me pay for it. Right now I have another few years of a manageable $140/month payment. When I received more loan money than I needed, I sent that money back. 

Like I said, I won't blame her 100% because they need to explain things like this in school. A basic finance class would not hurt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Lots of women have children without a husband, Z. Many single mothers in this world.

I think a mother's first obligation is to her children. Their father earns his spot in her life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

O M G

Someone just shoot me... ok...


----------



## Cynthia

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ZDog377 said:


> I agree completely. I tell him that is one of the things that frustrates me. I explain that I've been around a lot longer than him. I don't mind him presenting an argument but when he starts being disrespectful, that's where I draw the line.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kids can easily manipulate parents this way. The parent feels obligated to listen, when the child's intentions are not to seek understanding or come to agreement. The child's intentions are to get his own way. That is a common factor that needs to be avoided.

A couple weeks ago I was talking to my 16 yo son about something and he went too far. He wanted me to justify my decision and I wasn't having any of it. He wasn't trying to come to an understanding. He was trying to get his way and he was clearly manipulating the situation. I called him on it and he said, "I was only trying to understand your reasoning so I could counter it." 
I laughed and said that is exactly what an argument is. It's pretty much the definition of argument. 
The lightbulb went off in his head and he reluctantly agreed, then his attitude completely changed. He truly doesn't want to argue with me either. He does want his way, but not at the expense of relationship. 
Arguments are bad for relationships, because they make people into adversaries. The parent/child relationship should not be adversarial. It should be a united front to do what is best for the child, the parent, and the family unit. If everyone is in on that model, the family will function well and everyone will get their needs met.


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> Lots of women have children without a husband, Z. Many single mothers in this world.
> 
> I think a mother's first obligation is to her children. Their father earns his spot in her life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So are you saying I haven't earned a spot in her life then?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cynthia

jld said:


> Lots of women have children without a husband, Z. Many single mothers in this world.
> 
> I think a mother's first obligation is to her children. Their father earns his spot in her life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This such a crazy bad idea. I just don't even... Wow. What an entitled, disrespectful idea. 



ZDog377 said:


> So are you saying I haven't earned a spot in her life then?



You do not have to earn a spot in the life of your wife and family. The idea is that you all have each other's backs and are working together to build each other up and build your relationships. It's not about earning. It's about building together.


----------



## Marduk

ZDog377 said:


> Why is that a wise position for a woman to take? Without the husband, there would be no children.
> 
> I know she didn't receive any college counseling from her parents, neither of them went to college. I did not receive any counseling from my parents either, other than them telling me that they could not afford to help me pay for it. Right now I have another few years of a manageable $140/month payment. When I received more loan money than I needed, I sent that money back.
> 
> Like I said, I won't blame her 100% because they need to explain things like this in school. A basic finance class would not hurt.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This advice came from someone who firmly believes that a woman can do no wrong, unless driven to by a man. 

If you agree with that construct, it's good advice. 

If you don't, it's not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Lots of women have children without a husband, Z. Many single mothers in this world.
> 
> I think a mother's first obligation is to her children. Their father earns his spot in her life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Before or after the woman earns the right to be at his side?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> So are you saying I haven't earned a spot in her life then?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you have earned the marriage you have, Z.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I think you have earned the marriage you have, Z.


Ouch.

Keep in mind that, through this prism, there is something to be said for you tolerating the intolerable.

There are things at work that desperately need a simple solution:

"Either we remain married and it stops, or I set you free to pursue as much of it as your individual time and finances allow."

Don't be so scared to lose your marriage that you compromise doing what is right.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Cynthia

jld said:


> I think you have earned the marriage you have, Z.


Oh my gosh. What on earth? Just wow.
So Z is trying to figure out where he is going wrong and doing everything he can think of to resolve the problems in his marriage and family while his wife merrily goes about doing whatever she darn well pleases without a thought or care in the world about what matters to her husband, yet he is the problem. There is no logic whatsoever to that.
It takes two to make a great relationship, but only one person to destroy it.


----------



## Cynthia

farsidejunky said:


> Ouch.
> 
> Don't be so scared to lose your marriage that you compromise doing what is right.


Shout this from the mountain tops.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I think you have earned the marriage you have, Z.


----------



## ZDog377

I had to laugh when we had a discussion yesterday. She says I tell her to do things she enjoys, hence the volunteering. I asked her what things do I enjoy doing. She named three or four things, I asked her when the last time I got to do any of those was......she couldn't come up with an answer.......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ZDog377 said:


> I had to laugh when we had a discussion yesterday. She says I tell her to do things she enjoys, hence the volunteering. I asked her what things do I enjoy doing. She named three or four things, I asked her when the last time I got to do any of those was......she couldn't come up with an answer.......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Honesty time.

Who's fault is that?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## john117

jld said:


> I think you have earned the marriage you have, Z.


But if he torpedoes her he's the bad guy. Makes perfect sense😂


----------



## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> I had to laugh when we had a discussion yesterday. She says I tell her to do things she enjoys, hence the volunteering. I asked her what things do I enjoy doing. She named three or four things, I asked her when the last time I got to do any of those was......she couldn't come up with an answer.......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is a good discussion to have, but the next step is telling her that you are going to do something about it, but not at the expense of the family. No one should be doing anything at the expense of the family. Everyone has needs that should be met and it is time that her desires do not take priority over your needs.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &amp;amp;quot;touched out&amp;amp;quot;*



john117 said:


> But if he torpedoes her he's the bad guy. Makes perfect sense😂


Not if he gives her the choice.

I know it was mostly rhetorical, yet if he clearly lays out what is acceptable and what is not, then gives her the option to choose, who cares who the bad guy is.

Principled people piss non-principled people off all the time. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



farsidejunky said:


> Honesty time.
> 
> Who's fault is that?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


(Hint: yours)


----------



## Cynthia

john117 said:


> But if he torpedoes her he's the bad guy. Makes perfect sense😂


It's very convenient for the person who expects to be served. 
Blame shifting can be a highly effective tactic. It works great for some people, unfortunately it destroys the relationship and sometimes the person it's directed at as well.


----------



## Marduk

ZDog377 said:


> We have both said before that it's not fair to the kids to see us fighting all the time. I always try and plan things for us to do, but the kids are busy with things. Like this weekend, I'll probably get home sometime Friday and he has a tournament game in the evening. Then Saturday he has two games. Plus my father in law is coming down for the games. *She will ask what I want to do and I'll say it doesn't matter as long as I get to spend time with her.* It's never "hey, I've arranged a babysitter and we are going out, be ready at 6". It would be nice to have that once or twice.


Been going through this thread.

I think the bolded pretty accurately sums up what you need to fix.

Stop trying to fix her at all. Start having the marriage you want to have from your side, and the life you want.

She'll come along for the ride, or leave, or probably try to boat anchor you.


----------



## Marduk

CynthiaDe said:


> It's very convenient for the person who expects to be served.
> Blame shifting can be a highly effective tactic. It works great for some people, unfortunately it destroys the relationship and sometimes the person it's directed at as well.


Unless you're so good at it that you convince the other person that they're in charge, and it was all their idea and doing to begin with.


----------



## Cynthia

marduk said:


> Unless you're so good at it that you convince the other person that they're in charge, and it was all their idea and doing to begin with.


No it still destroys the relationship and the person it's directed at. That person will be confused and various emotions, but won't understand where they are coming from. It might take years before the victim of blame shifting realizes it's not their fault or maybe never. It is a destructive tactic.


----------



## john117

CynthiaDe said:


> It's very convenient for the person who expects to be served.
> Blame shifting can be a highly effective tactic. It works great for some people, unfortunately it destroys the relationship and sometimes the person it's directed at as well.


There's no relationship at that point so....


----------



## ZDog377

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



marduk said:


> (Hint: yours)


Not saying it isn't my fault. I just found it funny that she can't name the last time I was able to do something I enjoyed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lila

@ZDog377

I haven't read beyond the first 20 pages of this thread but I don't think the question has been asked yet.....

How would you feel about your wife putting the kids in daycare and going back to work full-time?


----------



## ZDog377

Lila said:


> @ZDog377
> 
> I haven't read beyond the first 20 pages of this thread but I don't think the question has been asked yet.....
> 
> How would you feel about your wife putting the kids in daycare and going back to work full-time?


I don't think it would hurt anything to try it. We know that a decent amount of her pay will be going towards daycare but tbeere is nothing that can be done about that. I do see her still trying to squeeze in volunteer time no matter what though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lila

ZDog377 said:


> I don't think it would hurt anything to try it. We know that a decent amount of her pay will be going towards daycare but tbeere is nothing that can be done about that. I do see her still trying to squeeze in volunteer time no matter what though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know my position is not going to be favored by many but this is what needs to happen. She has the ugly cloud of a huge financial burden (student loans) that must be addressed one way or the other. She needs to pay those off and the only way to do that is to get a full time job. It's not ideal but its what has to be done. 

I also think her entering the work force again will give her the added benefit of validation (the kind she currently gets from volunteering at the PTA)...but with a paycheck to boot. 

I just don't see another way around your financial woes.


----------



## john117

Living in la la land is irrespective of paycheck status.

My wife is not big on work, she probably hates it, but likes the perks of work ie the paycheck. But being in la la land she can't accept the fact that this is how it works.

So she's somehow miserable working and will be miserable not working.

Reality has nothing to do with it.


----------



## ZDog377

I agree she needs to work, but I don't see where the student loan issue is affecting us. To her it seems to be out of sight, out of mind.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ZDog377 said:


> Not saying it isn't my fault. I just found it funny that she can't name the last time I was able to do something I enjoyed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can you?

What would you have wanted to do? Have you thought about it?

Are you ready next time to clearly articulate what you want to do?

"Wife, let's go X."

Where X = pub, hiking, drive, whatever.

She can always say no or suggest something else.


----------



## Cynthia

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ZDog377 said:


> Not saying it isn't my fault. I just found it funny that she can't name the last time I was able to do something I enjoyed.


She is not as concerned about your needs as you are about her. The entire dynamic of the relationship has to change in order for anything to improve, but it starts with you recognizing what your part in it all is. This isn't all your fault. The problem is that neither of you understand the basic concept of how a marriage and family are supposed to function. The idea is that you join your lives together so that each person is getting their needs met. Everyone works together to make sure everyone's needs are met, but each person must take responsibility for doing their part and for meeting their personal needs and expressing those needs for others to willingly help them.
This is not happening in your marriage. I don't know if you are meeting your wife's needs or not, because we don't know what her needs are outside of affirmation, which she is finding at PTO and other outside interests and from being a mother. I don't know what she's getting from being a wife, except financial and physical support.
Clearly your wife is not concerned for long-term financial security of the family. She seems focused on her immediate personal desires, rather than what is best for the entire family both immediate and long term. You don't have to have her buy in to start making plans as to how you are going to remedy your part in this situation and to hold her accountable for her neglect of the family as a whole.
I am certain that she thinks she has the family's best interests at heart by doing all this stuff, but she's fooling herself. That's clearly not what's going on or she would be diligently working with you to resolve these serious issues that you have spoken to her about. Instead she blame shifts, like jld is doing on this thread.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Fooling, herself is exactly what she's doing CynthiaD. Great description.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

CynthiaDe said:


> This such a crazy bad idea. I just don't even... Wow. What an entitled, disrespectful idea.


It's reality, Cynthia. She is no more obliged to stay with him than he is with her. 

The kids may be in their lives forever, but even that is not a guarantee. We all earn our relationships with our kids, too.

Human adult relationships are basically a free market.


----------



## jld

CynthiaDe said:


> Oh my gosh. What on earth? Just wow.
> So Z is trying to figure out where he is going wrong and doing everything he can think of to resolve the problems in his marriage and family while his wife merrily goes about doing whatever she darn well pleases without a thought or care in the world about what matters to her husband, yet he is the problem. There is no logic whatsoever to that.
> It takes two to make a great relationship, but only one person to destroy it.


We have not heard from her. I am sure she has her own version of their marital issues.

Have you invited her here, Z? Does she know people here suggested she was cheating and encouraged you to spy on her? How do you think she would feel about that?


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I don't think it would hurt anything to try it. We know that a decent amount of her pay will be going towards daycare but tbeere is nothing that can be done about that. I do see her still trying to squeeze in volunteer time no matter what though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because that is what feeds her.


----------



## Marduk

Blossom Leigh said:


> Fooling, herself is exactly what she's doing CynthiaD. Great description.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have found that mirroring my wife's behaviour when she doesn't see the impact of what she is doing is an effective strategy.

You just need to alter the game so instead of it being win for her/lose for you it becomes win for you both/lose for her.

Meaning: you get to a place where you're OK either way. And the more negative behaviour she exhibits, the more negative things she feels.

For example, when my wife was going out all the time, I'd enact a scenario where I would do super fun things with the kids while she was gone that she would miss out on, and then when she got back I'd go do something on my own -- something fun and awesome.

And when she settled down, I'd plan super fun things together, and stop going out so much myself. So we both ended up winning, or I would just win. Instead of she wins, and I lose.

Few people are magnanimous enough to be really introspective and empathetic when the current situation benefits them greatly.

You're paying her bills, tolerating her BS, living her life, and she feels like a saint for volunteering and gets not to worry about money.

Why would she want to change?


----------



## Cynthia

jld said:


> It's reality, Cynthia. She is no more obliged to stay with him than he is with her.
> 
> The kids may be in their lives forever, but even that is not a guarantee. We all earn our relationships with our kids, too.
> 
> Human adult relationships are basically a free market.


No. It's not that simple. If that were true, the best people would connect with other wonderful people, but that's not how life works. 



jld said:


> We have not heard from her. I am sure she has her own version of their marital issues.
> 
> Have you invited her here, Z? Does she know people here suggested she was cheating and encouraged you to spy on her? How do you think she would feel about that?


You say this after having blamed the whole thing on Z. You are contradicting your own attempt at logic. I find it fascinating at how you twist things around. It's kind of disturbing.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> It's reality, Cynthia. She is no more obliged to stay with him than he is with her.
> 
> The kids may be in their lives forever, but even that is not a guarantee. We all earn our relationships with our kids, too.
> 
> Human adult relationships are basically a free market.


Transactional thinking.


----------



## jld

CynthiaDe said:


> No. It's not that simple. If that were true, the best people would connect with other wonderful people, but that's not how life works.


Water does not seek its own level?



> You say this after having blamed the whole thing on Z. You are contradicting your own attempt at logic.


How so?

Would you feel it would be more accurate to say that they both earned the marriage they have? 

There is certainly some truth to that. She is not without influence in the marriage.

I do think women tend to be responders, though. They usually respond well to men who make them feel valued, listened to, and respected.

Someone has to go first, and I think the best person to do that is Z. He is the only one we currently have to talk to, anyway.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Transactional thinking.


Realistic thinking.


----------



## Cynthia

Blossom Leigh said:


> Fooling, herself is exactly what she's doing CynthiaD. Great description.


Yes, you're right. She's got herself so fooled that she believes what she's telling Z. It's a form of gaslighting. 


marduk said:


> Transactional thinking.


Right. That is not how relationship work. They are not transactions or most relationships would be a lot happier since there would be a benefit to both parties for each transaction. Relationships are much more complex than that.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Realistic thinking.


Lol.

2+2=5 for some values of 2, right?

Reality = no.


----------



## Cynthia

jld said:


> Water does not seek its own level?


This is a nonsense comment. It doesn't apply to anything on this thread. People are not water. The two are not comparable. 



jld said:


> We have not heard from her. I am sure she has her own version of their marital issues.
> 
> Have you invited her here, Z? Does she know people here suggested she was cheating and encouraged you to spy on her? How do you think she would feel about that?





CynthiaDe said:


> You say this after having blamed the whole thing on Z. You are contradicting your own attempt at logic. I find it fascinating at how you twist things around. It's kind of disturbing.





jld said:


> How so?


If you can’t see that’s what you’re doing, that may be part of the problem with your disconnect. Trying to explain where you are doing this would require effort on my part that I have a feeling would fall upon deaf ears anyway.



jld said:


> Would you feel it would be more accurate to say that they both earned the marriage they have?


No. I don’t think that’s how it works. It’s not about earning. I do not subscribe to your way of thinking. The way you describe these issues is blaming and shaming. I don’t think everything falls into that category. Relationships are not so cut and dried. Not so black and white.



jld said:


> There is certainly some truth to that. She is not without influence in the marriage.


Of course. Every person in a relationship has their roles.



jld said:


> I do think women tend to be responders, though. They usually respond well to men who make them feel valued, listened to, and respected.


That doesn’t mean that all responsibility belongs to the husband. People respond based on many factors. A man could be doing everything right, but if his wife is dysfunctional, her response may be based on her dysfunction rather than on the truth of what is happening. Each person is responsible for their own behaviors.
It is a matter of two people working together on their relationship to make it good. If both people are dedicated to doing that, they should be able to function well together, but if one person is not interest in the needs of the other person, then it doesn’t matter what the other person does to resolve the problems. No matter what a good man does, a woman who doesn’t have good motives is not going to respond in a healthy manner.


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> We have not heard from her. I am sure she has her own version of their marital issues.
> 
> Have invited her here, Z? Does she know people here suggested she was cheating and encouraged you to spy on her? How do you think she would feel about that?


She knows I thought she was cheating. As of right now, she doesn't know that I've been posting on here. I don't know if she would be more hurt by that or what she would actually read. She is a private person with her own business but seems to want to know everyone else's. I've asked her many times to talk about things and she keeps on complaining because they are the same items. I know that I'm probably not 100% right in any of this but that's what I came here for. I wasn't making any progress at home. 

I do know she agrees with our oldest that I don't spend enough time with him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cynthia

People have free will. They are not puppets or elements. What you are doing, jld, is expecting people to act like elements. If you put vinegar in baking soda it will fizz. Vinegar and baking soda don't have a choice. That's what always happens. We can prove it over and over. People, on the other hand, have many options to a stimuli. Unlike baking soda and vinegar, they can choose any number of responses.

Relationships are complex. There are so many factors, because each person is a unique individual with a different personality and different experiences. You can't put in a stimuli into each person and expect the same result from every person. The factors are endless.


----------



## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> She knows I thought she was cheating. As of right now, she doesn't know that I've been posting on here. I don't know if she would be more hurt by that or what she would actually read. She is a private person with her own business but seems to want to know everyone else's. I've asked her many times to talk about things and she keeps on complaining because they are the same items. I know that I'm probably not 100% right in any of this but that's what I came here for. I wasn't making any progress at home.
> 
> I do know she agrees with our oldest that I don't spend enough time with him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Inviting her here would not help your situation at all. I predict she would become furious and completely close off to any progress in your relationship. Based on what you've posted here, I think she would punish you and either your marriage would end or you would live in misery.


----------



## john117

ZDog377 said:


> I agree she needs to work, but I don't see where the student loan issue is affecting us. To her it seems to be out of sight, out of mind.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Work tends to make money more understandable... right now it's abstract and out of sight.


----------



## john117

marduk said:


> Transactional thinking.


Human thinking.


----------



## john117

marduk said:


> Lol.
> 
> 2+2=5 for some values of 2, right?
> 
> Reality = no.


Humans rationalizing 2+2=5...


----------



## Marduk

john117 said:


> Humans rationalizing 2+2=5...


I can rationalize many things, including the possability that if you hang on another six months your wife is suddenly going to become your own personal porn star in between sessions of falling all over herself telling you that she loves you...

But that's about as likely as 2+2 ever equaling 5.


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> She knows I thought she was cheating. As of right now, she doesn't know that I've been posting on here. I don't know if she would be more hurt by that or what she would actually read. She is a private person with her own business but seems to want to know everyone else's. I've asked her many times to talk about things and she keeps on complaining because they are the same items. I know that I'm probably not 100% right in any of this but that's what I came here for. I wasn't making any progress at home.
> 
> I do know she agrees with our oldest that I don't spend enough time with him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You put a VAR in her car, correct? Or was it that you were checking her phone and computer records? Does she know about that?

If she were getting that advice on a message board and doing those things to you, would you not want to know?

I think it is important to be transparent with your spouse in all areas, including being here, and what you are being told here. Transparency between partners builds trust.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> You put a VAR in her car, correct? Or was it that you were checking her phone and computer records? Does she know about that?
> 
> If she were getting that advice on a message board and doing those things to you, would you not want to know?
> 
> I think it is important to be transparent with your spouse in all areas, including being here, and what you are being told here. Transparency between partners builds trust.


 - Vs -



MEM11363 said:


> So your wife borrowed money to get an expensive degree and then completely abandoned her responsibilities regarding the lenders?
> 
> She has time to be the president of the PTA - but no time to even try and figure out her student loans?
> 
> There is a deep rooted 'me me me' theme to the behavior you describe.
> Not yours - hers.


Hmmm...

Let's see...

My response is going to be...


----------



## Blossom Leigh

The first one is an attempt to emotionally blackmail Zdog by loading him up with misplaced guilt. She wants his wife here and will blackmail him to accomplish that goal.

The second post by MEM is not emotional blackmail.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cynthia

We are to be emotionally transparent with those who are safe. If someone is not safe and we have to use covert methods to find out what on earth is going on in our own life, then sharing what we did with that already unsafe person is only going to make matters worse. First we have to establish safety. 

Guilting someone for trying to get to the bottom of what is going on in his own life and then trying to get him to do what you want by guilting him is called emotional blackmail. It is an abuse tactic, along with the gaslighting and blame shifting that I've seen happening as well. 

I think that this is productive for this thread, because it makes Zdog and others aware of the tactics that abusers use to manipulate and control. I don't know if Zdog's wife is an abuser, but she sure does appear to live in a bubble that Zdog is helping to provide for her. Allowing her to view this thread or to tell her everything he's thinking is a sure fire route to pain and disaster.


----------



## jld

I think transparency is the only foundation for marriage, Z. It is certainly the basis of mine. 

It takes courage to be brutally honest with your spouse, and to receive his or her honesty in return. But it is the quickest way to resolve misunderstandings and unfair judgments. And most certainly the way to establish trust.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Zdog it takes wisdom and discernment to navigate this thread. Feigned innocence is rampant.


----------



## Cynthia

Emotional manipulation is a form of abuse.

Deal with the issues at hand. Review what is going on in the marriage and seek to set healthy boundaries. Becoming emotionally vulnerable to someone who is likely to respond in a way that makes matters worse is unwise.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I think transparency is the only foundation for marriage, Z. It is certainly the basis of mine.
> 
> It takes courage to be brutally honest with your spouse, and to receive his or her honesty in return. But it is the quickest way to resolve misunderstandings and unfair judgments. And most certainly the way to establish trust.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here. 

If it's pissing people off and distracting attention away from helping this guy to feed your own ego, you're succeeding. Why don't you just get Dug to soothe your ego for you instead?

If you're trying to indoctrinate your brand of emotional terrorism, even the OP as a newbie sees through it. You're failing at that. 

So what are you doing? Crying out for attention?


----------



## jld

I am sharing my opinion, same as you. He said a few pages ago that he appreciates a variety of views, and he specifically solicited mine.

Z, it is always easier to be open and honest with your spouse sooner rather than later. Things have a way of coming to the light in marriage. You will not be able to hide it forever. It will be easier for her to forgive the spying and secrecy if you come forward with it on your own.


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> You put a VAR in her car, correct? Or was it that you were checking her phone and computer records? Does she know about that?
> 
> If she were getting that advice on a message board and doing those things to you, would you not want to know?
> 
> I think it is important to be transparent with your spouse in all areas, including being here, and what you are being told here. Transparency between partners builds trust.


No, I didn't put a VAR in her car. I checked on her phone and online stuff. She doesn't know about anything. I'll be transparent with her from now on, when I go to the bathroom I'll let her know how many times I shake it when I'm done.......


----------



## john117

marduk said:


> I can rationalize many things, including the possability that if you hang on another six months your wife is suddenly going to become your own personal porn star in between sessions of falling all over herself telling you that she loves you...
> 
> But that's about as likely as 2+2 ever equaling 5.


Agreed. 

But that's what rationalization is all about. 

In my experience it basically cancels out one or more inputs to the decision process. It's not right or wrong it just is.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> I think transparency is the only foundation for marriage, Z. It is certainly the basis of mine.
> 
> It takes courage to be brutally honest with your spouse, and to receive his or her honesty in return. But it is the quickest way to resolve misunderstandings and unfair judgments. And most certainly the way to establish trust.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How can you be transparent if you don't know you have a problem??


----------



## Blossom Leigh

He solicited your advice before he was fully aware of the tactics you would use jld.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I am sharing my opinion, same as you. He said a few pages ago that he appreciates a variety of views, and he specifically solicited mine.
> 
> Z, it is always easier to be open and honest with your spouse sooner rather than later. Things have a way of coming to the light in marriage. You will not be able to hide it forever. It will be easier for her to forgive the spying and secrecy if you come forward with it on your own.


Perhaps you could share some transparency about how well it's working out for you. And what the endgame in your marriage looks like. 

What did Dug say to Zanne? Something about you giving sex and him providing for you and that's the deal?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Holdingontoit

marduk said:


> Something about you giving sex and him providing for you and that's the deal?


You say that as if that is a BAD thing?!?! Right now Z is providing for her and she is NOT giving him sex. Seems to me that quid pro quo would be an improvement for Z.

I know, I know, aim higher.


----------



## turnera

Holdingontoit said:


> You say that as if that is a BAD thing?!?! Right now Z is providing for her and she is NOT giving him sex. Seems to me that quid pro quo would be an improvement for Z.
> 
> I know, I know, aim higher.


No, that's what Dug said to Zanne, who's living with her AP. And not working.


----------



## john117

Holdingontoit said:


> You say that as if that is a BAD thing?!?! Right now Z is providing for her and she is NOT giving him sex. Seems to me that quid pro quo would be an improvement for Z.
> 
> I know, I know, aim higher.


See, it comes back to Z2's deficiency of this pesky cognitive ingredient, self preservation neurons. 

Consider the evidence:

- huge debt
- no paying job
- no interest in paying job 
- relative lack of skills
- relative lack of judgment 
- entitlement syndrome 

If it was me I would be producing self preservation neurons as fast as I could (*), faster than red blood cells... 

(*) Figure of speech, neurogenesis at age 40 is a bit iffy at best 😉


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> No, I didn't put a VAR in her car. I checked on her phone and online stuff. She doesn't know about anything. I'll be transparent with her from now on, when I go to the bathroom I'll let her know how many times I shake it when I'm done.......


I know transparency can be hard for those who are unaccustomed to it, Z. But it truly will set you free. No more secrets, no more hiding and spying. No more living a double life, one on TAM and one with her. 

You do seem hesitant to tell her about this thread, though. That can be an area of growth. If you expect honesty and openness and responsibility from her, a good way to inspire that is to model it for her.

Someone said your relationship needs a "reset." Transparency, starting with you, is likely just the reset it needs. A fresh start, with a clear conscience. It will feel cleansing, Z. 

That goes for your relationship with your son, too. Honesty and openness are especially effective with kids. It builds their trust in you.

Children's hearts are so pure, Z. They usually love their parents and want a relationship with them. Your son's wanting to spend time with you is evidence of that. Some kids, when they get to their teenage years, do not want that anymore. Please do not waste this opportunity to build on his desire to spend time with you. They grow so very quickly.


----------



## bandit.45

So much naïveté. It really is astonishing.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Perhaps you could share some transparency about how well it's working out for you. And what the endgame in your marriage looks like.
> 
> What did Dug say to Zanne? Something about you giving sex and him providing for you and that's the deal?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Transparency has been my marital modus operandi from the get go, Z. My husband commented very early in our relationship that I cannot lie. In fact, he told me that my directness makes living with me easy, because he never has to guess what I am thinking or feeling.

I think being transparent is the only way to go in marriage. If it gets you divorced, so be it. Better divorced with a clear conscience than living in the shadows with your spouse. I don't know how people can stand that.

Someday my husband or I will die. That will be the endgame. Unless we are lucky enough to die together.

Oh, Dug, TAM reminds me every day how lucky I am to be with you, and how minor my complaints about you truly are. I am so lucky to have my children, to be a homeschooling mom, to still have our oldest son alive. You are such a blessing to me, a gift in my life. Thank you so very much, my darling.

And I can't wait to see you tonight! Drive safely!


----------



## Duguesclin

jld said:


> Transparency has been my marital modus operandi from the get go, Z. My husband commented very early in our relationship that I cannot lie. In fact, he told me that my directness makes living with me easy, because he never has to guess what I am thinking or feeling.
> 
> I think being transparent is the only way to go in marriage. If it gets you divorced, so be it. Better divorced with a clear conscience than living in the shadows with your spouse. I don't know how people can stand that.
> 
> Someday my husband or I will die. That will be the endgame. Unless we are lucky enough to die together.
> 
> Oh, Dug, TAM reminds me every day how lucky I am to be with you, and how minor my complaints about you truly are. I am so lucky to have my children, to be a homeschooling mom, to still have our oldest son alive. You are such a blessing to me, a gift in my life. Thank you so very much, my darling.
> 
> And I can't wait to see you tonight! Drive safely!


Thanks JLD.
I do not think a relationship needs to be complicated. I do not think ours is, and I do not think Z's needs to be either.

I think something that really helped when we were first together is our commitment to a simple life. We had few things, were involved in few activities. This really helped us focus.

With 3 kids, Z may not have that luxury anymore, but he can still simplify as much as he can to help him focus on his family. Time for his own interests will come later, when the kids are older.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

His wife isnt coming here jld, give up the shaming and guilt tactics.


----------



## Tortdog

marduk said:


> Few people are magnanimous enough to be really introspective and empathetic when the current situation benefits them greatly.


Nails it. And this is hard to see when you are the more charitable. We expect those we love and we perceive to love us to love in the same way that we do. This is usually an error. And that does not make the other person wrong, just different. 



> You're paying her bills, tolerating her BS, living her life, and she feels like a saint for volunteering and gets not to worry about money.
> 
> Why would she want to change?


And you have told her that you are fine with the arrangement through both your words and actions.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



Duguesclin said:


> Thanks JLD.
> I do not think a relationship needs to be complicated. I do not think ours is, and I do not think Z's needs to be either.
> 
> I think something that really helped when we were first together is our commitment to a simple life. We had few things, were involved in few activities. This really helped us focus.
> 
> With 3 kids, Z may not have that luxury anymore, but he can still simplify as much as he can to help him focus on his family. Time for his own interests will come later, when the kids are older.


I think this is reasonable.

I also think it needs to apply to his wife as well.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Tortdog

My wife would kill me if she came here. She would feel exposed for laying out our lives to the public and for which she sees as very private. Doesn't matter the reality of whether it is anonymous or not.


----------



## jld

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



farsidejunky said:


> I think this is reasonable.
> 
> I also think it needs to apply to his wife as well.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


He can lead the way, far. He can be the model for it.

Have you read _Seven Habits of Highly Effective People,_ Z? Wonderful book. Best "marriage manual" out there, imo.


----------



## jld

Tortdog said:


> My wife would kill me if she came here. She would feel exposed for laying out our lives to the public and for which she sees as very private. Doesn't matter the reality of whether it is anonymous or not.


Tell her the truth. Isn't that the way you would want her to treat you? Invite her to be part of TAM with you, or ask her to propose an alternative.

Professional marriage counseling is a good choice. It is in person and the counselor has professional training and lots of experience.


----------



## Tortdog

No. She sees no value in hearing opinions form people on the Internet. She has always hated my involvement in online forums and I have been open to her that I find enjoyment from it and I learn. 

She would never step foot here, or any other place online with exception of FB and family or close friends and even that is a rarity. 

I have learned to temper my online time.


----------



## jld

Tortdog said:


> No. She sees no value in hearing opinions form people on the Internet. She has always hated my involvement in online forums and I have been open to her that I find enjoyment from it and I learn.
> 
> She would never step foot here, or any other place online with exception of FB and family or close friends and even that is a rarity.
> 
> I have learned to temper my online time.


No to what? Telling her you are here? Or inviting her to participate?

I don't think it is wise to keep secrets in marriage. It complicates your life.


----------



## Tortdog

Oh, and lest there be confusion, she knows that I post here. She is not a fan. When I mentioned the value that I am seeing here (and it is both real and measurable) she shuts down.. So I just don't discuss it and try to temper my participation. 



jld said:


> Tell her the truth. Isn't that the way you would want her to treat you?


----------



## Tortdog

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



jld said:


> No to what? Telling her you are here? Or inviting her to participate?
> 
> I don't think it is wise to keep secrets in marriage. It complicates your life.


Cross posted and completely agree.

But I am distracting from the OP. I only mentioned my situation to address someone's solution to invite one's mate.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



jld said:


> He can lead the way, far. He can be the model for it.
> 
> Have you read _Seven Habits of Highly Effective People,_ Z? Wonderful book. Best "marriage manual" out there, imo.


He already has been modeling it for her...on full display.

Did you miss the post where neither one of them coupd recall when he did something for his own enjoyment?

Her response? Take. Take. Take more.

A reset is definitely needed, but mostly on her end.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Tortdog

I thought his response to her as to what to do was anything that you want, dear.


----------



## jld

Z, please think about what Dug said about not complicating your life unnecessarily. The simpler you can keep things, the more manageable life is.


----------



## jld

Tortdog said:


> Oh, and lest there be confusion, she knows that I post here. She is not a fan. When I mentioned the value that I am seeing here (and it is both real and measurable) she shuts down.. So I just don't discuss it and try to temper my participation.


I am glad she knows. Everything out in the open is the way to go in marriage. 

Try to open her up. Be kind and gentle. Express curiosity about her views. Seek to understand her. A spouse shutting down indicates lack of trust, never a good thing in marriage.


----------



## jld

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



farsidejunky said:


> He already has been modeling it for her...on full display.
> 
> Did you miss the post where neither one of them coupd recall when he did something for his own enjoyment?
> 
> Her response? Take. Take. Take more.
> 
> A reset is definitely needed, but mostly on her end.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


That is your understanding of it, far. But remember, we have not heard from her. I hope we will.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &amp;quot;touched out&amp;quot;*



jld said:


> That is your understanding of it, far. But remember, we have not heard from her. I hope we will.


You're right. 

She has shown herself to be a plethora of responsibility, accountability, and adult level thinking with the handling of her student loans, the participation in PTA, and her engagement with her husband. Z must be misrepresenting here.

SMH

I am done thread jacking with side bar chatter.

Z:

You have been given multitudes of good advice in this thread, along with some marginal as well.

You have a call to action. The longer you delay, the worse the situation becomes.

Stop hiding. Stop enabling. Start holding accountable. 

And FFS, form a plan for those student loans.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

This op does not need to be further harrassed about bringing his wife here. I am appalled at the number of guilting tactics being used in order to psychologically cause him to cave. It is unkind no matter what kind of flowery language it is cloaked in.


----------



## jld

*Re: Wife feels &amp;quot;touched out&amp;quot;*



farsidejunky said:


> You're right.
> 
> She has shown herself to be a plethora of responsibility, accountability, and adult level thinking with the handling of her student loans, the participation in PTA, and her engagement with her husband. Z must be misrepresenting here.
> 
> SMH


No one said he is misrepresenting. But his is only one side of the story. She undoubtedly has hers, too. Hearing from both would help us give more finely tuned advice.


----------



## jld

Z, here is a thought for making a dent in those loans. You have said that you are gone most weeks for work. How would you and your wife feel about selling the house and moving in with her dad? 

If it does not matter where your family lives, at least in terms of your work, saving money in this way could be very helpful. You could apply whatever equity you have in the house when you sell it to her loans. Her dad might appreciate having his grandchildren with him, too, and his daughter to help with him as he gets older. It would save on those three hour trips north.

If the school district is an issue, remind your wife that it could be a chance for her to begin homeschooling or doing the public school online option.

Another thought: Far and his wife started a side business that has really grown. These opportunities can sometimes come up unexpectedly in life and provide a great deal of income. Any possibilities along that way that you can think of for you and your wife?


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> Z, here is a thought for making a dent in those loans. You have said that you are gone most weeks for work. How would you and your wife feel about selling the house and moving in with her dad?
> 
> If it does not matter where your family lives, at least in terms of your work, saving money in this way could be very helpful. You could apply whatever equity you have in the house when you sell it to her loans. Her dad might appreciate having his grandchildren with him, too, and his daughter to help with him as he gets older. It would save on those three hour trips north.
> 
> If the school district is an issue, remind your wife that it could be a chance for her to begin homeschooling or doing the public school online option.
> 
> Another thought: Far and his wife started a side business that has really grown. These opportunities can sometimes come up unexpectedly in life and provide a great deal of income. Any possibilities along that way that you can think of for you and your wife?


We only go up to visit him probably twice a year right now. Her dad is only living in a one bedroom apartment right now. There wouldn't be enough room for us. Also, I was hired based on the region I was in. If I move three hours north, the closest international airport is also further away.


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> We only go up to visit him probably twice a year right now. Her dad is only living in a one bedroom apartment right now. There wouldn't be enough room for us. Also, I was hired based on the region I was in. If I move three hours north, the closest international airport is also further away.



Okay. Well, scratch that.

That debt really is a sinkhole.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Z: There is no path to improvement in your life and your marriage that is not going to involve discomfort and risk of loss. There is no safe and easy path to the a better place. If you don't have the inclination to take any risk or experience any discomfort then you will never see any improvement. That is on you, not her.

I am not sitting in judgment. I too chose and continue to choose the path of comfort and relative safety. I too remain in a place with significant drawbacks because of my fear of change. Many people are like us. We tend not to be particularly happy or fulfilled but we survive.

You can even do as I have done and post copiously on message boards about how unhappy you are, yet remain steadfast in your opposition to change. It is possible. I have been doing it for 14 years with no end in sight. However, I don't suggest you choose that.

I can't guarantee you how it will play out for you, except for this. The path you are on does not ever lead to more or better sex. Zero chance of that without taking some risk. So if you insist on living a double life (pretending to your wife while moaning here), I suggest you stop having sex entirely. Trust me, it is easier than sporadic and mostly unsatisfying sex. It robs your wife of the ability to believe that the marriage is fine or normal. She might secretly be happy but she can't admit that out loud. So you get closer to where jld would like you to be (honest about your dissatisfaction with your sex life) and your wife is the one leading a double life (pretending everything is OK when she knows darn well it isn't). Who knows, she might find that she isn't as comfortable with zero sex as she imagines she would be.


----------



## jld

Holding . . . Things do seem to be getting better for Z. His wife initiated contact in the shower last week.

Z, why do you think that was?


----------



## Cynthia

Transparency is one thing. Spewing out one’s every thought and action is quite another.

A close, loving relationship that is safe is different than a troubled marriage where each partner is safe for the other person. In a troubled marriage, it is (unfortunately) necessary for the partners to guard their hearts.

Seeking answers and solutions when a spouse is not on the same page makes it foolish to just tell every thought on one’s mind. When a person is seeking answers, but isn’t getting the cooperation of their spouse, people seek help elsewhere. As long as it is not done with ill intent and nothing is done to harm the other party, it would be unhealthy for the relationship for the one seeking answers to disclose all that he is doing to get those answers. When someone isn’t forthcoming to begin with and is exhibiting behaviors that show she is not really concerned with the health of her husband or even the family as a whole, trying to share what one is doing may result in the person never getting the answers needed to be healthy or to know what approach to take to be healthy.

Being honest about where you are at in the marriage, rather than hiding your pain and discomfort is not usually a good idea. People who think everything is okay the way it is usually stay on that path. If your spouse knows that you are dissatisfied and you are doing what you can for your part, a little pressure for her to improve is better than you continuing to enable her to think she’s fine and her behavior is fine when it isn’t.


----------



## Duguesclin

CynthiaDe said:


> Transparency is one thing. Spewing out one’s every thought and action is quite another.
> 
> A close, loving relationship that is safe is different than a troubled marriage where each partner is safe for the other person. In a troubled marriage, it is (unfortunately) necessary for the partners to guard their hearts.
> 
> Seeking answers and solutions when a spouse is not on the same page makes it foolish to just tell every thought on one’s mind. When a person is seeking answers, but isn’t getting the cooperation of their spouse, people seek help elsewhere. As long as it is not done with ill intent and nothing is done to harm the other party, it would be unhealthy for the relationship for the one seeking answers to disclose all that he is doing to get those answers. When someone isn’t forthcoming to begin with and is exhibiting behaviors that show she is not really concerned with the health of her husband or even the family as a whole, trying to share what one is doing may result in the person never getting the answers needed to be healthy or to know what approach to take to be healthy.
> 
> Being honest about where you are at in the marriage, rather than hiding your pain and discomfort is not usually a good idea. People who think everything is okay the way it is usually stay on that path. If your spouse knows that you are dissatisfied and you are doing what you can for your part, a little pressure for her to improve is better than you continuing to enable her to think she’s fine and her behavior is fine when it isn’t.


I fail to understand how hiding from your spouse to protect your feelings gets you to a healthier relationship. Aren't Z, and most people on TAM, trying to get to a stronger marriage. 

In any situation, to build trust one needs to bring honesty. Trying to control a spouse through hiding does not bring trust and does not lead to a healthier marriage.

We can only influence. We cannot control. It is true with kids. It is true with spouses.


----------



## Cynthia

Duguesclin said:


> I fail to understand how hiding from your spouse to protect your feelings gets you to a healthier relationship. Aren't Z, and most people on TAM, trying to get to a stronger marriage.
> 
> In any situation, to build trust one needs to bring honesty. Trying to control a spouse through hiding does not bring trust and does not lead to a healthier marriage.
> 
> We can only influence. We cannot control. It is true with kids. It is true with spouses.


It is foolish to share one’s deepest feelings with someone who is unsafe. 

When a person is seeking help and trying to resolve marriage issues and the other person is defensive and opposed to efforts to improve the marriage, telling her about what you’ve done is likely to anger her and make matters worse. The idea here is to make things better.

Trust has to be built a little at a time and it has to be mutual. Trust is eroded in Zdog’s marriage and he is trying to find ways to improve the marriage and thus restore the honesty. Suddenly spilling his guts to his wife isn’t going to make that happen. If this were some sudden and radical change in ZDog that she ought to know about that would be a different story, but that’s not what’s going on. He has already been trying to get through to her and it hasn’t seemed to have any positive impact. Telling her about his investigation and about TAM is likely to just make her angry. All for the sake of transparency. That’s just dumb.

There is also a difference between hiding something and simply not mentioning it. He's not hiding.


----------



## Duguesclin

CynthiaDe said:


> It is foolish to share one’s deepest feelings with someone who is unsafe.
> 
> When a person is seeking help and trying to resolve marriage issues and the other person is defensive and opposed to efforts to improve the marriage, telling her about what you’ve done is likely to anger her and make matters worse. The idea here is to make things better.
> 
> Trust has to be built a little at a time and it has to be mutual. Trust is eroded in Zdog’s marriage and he is trying to find ways to improve the marriage and thus restore the honesty. Suddenly spilling his guts to his wife isn’t going to make that happen. If this were some sudden and radical change in ZDog that she ought to know about that would be a different story, but that’s not what’s going on. He has already been trying to get through to her and it hasn’t seemed to have any positive impact. Telling her about his investigation and about TAM is likely to just make her angry. All for the sake of transparency. That’s just dumb.
> 
> There is also a difference between hiding something and simply not mentioning it. He's not hiding.


If you are not transparent, you are hiding. That is the fact.


----------



## jld

CynthiaDe said:


> It is foolish to share one’s deepest feelings with someone who is unsafe.


How "unsafe"? Uncomfortable unsafe? Or in physical danger unsafe?

Telling the truth to your spouse when you know you have done something wrong, like spying on your spouse or keeping secrets from them, is going to feel uncomfortable. It is supposed to. It means you have a conscience.



> When a person is seeking help and trying to resolve marriage issues and the other person is defensive and opposed to efforts to improve the marriage, telling her about what you’ve done is likely to anger her and make matters worse. The idea here is to make things better.


And disrespecting her by not being open and honest with her, and spying on her, is not going to make things better. Secrets come out eventually. The price is usually greater the longer they are hidden away.

And remember that it is his version that you are hearing. She likely has her own story about their marital issues. 



> Trust has to be built a little at a time and it has to be mutual. Trust is eroded in Zdog’s marriage and he is trying to find ways to improve the marriage and thus restore the honesty.


Transparency would restore honesty very quickly.



> Suddenly spilling his guts to his wife isn’t going to make that happen.


I think it would happen immediately. BOOM!



> If this were some sudden and radical change in ZDog that she ought to know about that would be a different story, but that’s not what’s going on. He has already been trying to get through to her and it hasn’t seemed to have any positive impact. Telling her about his investigation and about TAM is likely to just make her angry. All for the sake of transparency. That’s just dumb.


It is honest and open and the right thing to do. And the sooner, the better.



> There is also a difference between hiding something and simply not mentioning it. He's not hiding.


Totally agree with Dug. If she does not know about it, he is indeed hiding it.

I cannot imagine a healthy marriage without transparency.



If I were you, I would get everything out on the table and sort through it with her, Z. 

If she leaves you, she leaves you. But with everything out on the table, you have a great chance at actually solving problems, not just guessing at what to do behind her back.

You are not going to heal this marriage and develop true intimacy without transparency.


----------



## Cynthia

Duguesclin said:


> If you are not transparent, you are hiding. That is the fact.


No. I'ts not.
I guess he should give her a list of everything he does every day. Every thought he has of her. Every person he speaks to and the conversation. Otherwise he'd be hiding.


----------



## Cynthia

Zdog has done nothing wrong in investigating what is going on in his marriage. Discussing it with his wife would not help his marriage in any way.

If you don't know what an unsafe person is, look it up.


----------



## Duguesclin

CynthiaDe said:


> No. I'ts not.
> I guess he should give her a list of everything he does every day. Every thought he has of her. Every person he speaks to and the conversation. Otherwise he'd be hiding.


He knows what she would want to know. This is the part that he is hiding.


----------



## Cynthia

Duguesclin said:


> He knows what she would want to know. This is the part that he is hiding.


Oh brother. I disagree.


----------



## jld

CynthiaDe said:


> Zdog has done nothing wrong in investigating what is going on in his marriage. Discussing it with his wife would not help his marriage in any way.


Honest and open conversation is *exactly* what he needs in his marriage. Discussions with *her* are essential to get them moving forward. 

Discussing in front of a marriage counselor would be very helpful, Z. No one here is a professional marriage counselor.



> If you don't know what an unsafe person is, look it up.


Someone who conceals the truth from their spouse.


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> Honest and open conversation is *exactly* what he needs in his marriage. Discussions with *her* are essential to get them moving forward.
> 
> Discussing in front of a marriage counselor would be very helpful, Z. No one here is a professional marriage counselor.
> 
> 
> 
> Someone who conceals the truth from their spouse.


Actually the one lady that posted on here was. We have looked into counseling, but we cannot afford the costs right now. That is even with a reduction in the rate because of our income. 

I've asked her numerous times to talk about issues we have. Something either happens and we don't get to it or we talk about them but don't write them down. I can almost time when things are going to go wrong anymore.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

This OP is getting falsely accused of a lot of things. 

He is showing a tremendous amount of restraint over some of these comments being made about him.

This man has the patience of Job.


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> *Actually the one lady that posted on here was.* We have looked into counseling, but we cannot afford the costs right now. That is even with a reduction in the rate because of our income.


Who?



> I've asked her numerous times to talk about issues we have. Something either happens and we don't get to it or we talk about them but don't write them down. I can almost time when things are going to go wrong anymore.


There is a lot of power in just being honest and open yourself, Z, regardless of what your spouse is doing. When one person changes in a marriage, the other person usually responds to the shift.

It is surely hard to be the leader in embracing transparency with your spouse when it has not been your lifestyle since the beginning. But it has to start somewhere if you want to resolve problems. Why not with you?


----------



## jld

Here's a thought: How about telling your wife straight out that you feel like you can tell now when things are heating up? It lets her into your head. 

An approach of working with her, rather than trying to impose some sort of control scheme on her, is more likely to build intimacy in the relationship. I think trying to force some kind of rules and consequences program on her is going to cause resentment. I don't think she would accept it anyway.


----------



## ZDog377

I'm ar the point where getting into her head won't do much good. She's still going to volunteer when she gets a job. I told her yesterday something has to change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

All talk. You are all talk, Zdog.

And your wife knows it.

"Stop...or I'll tell you to stop again."

Talk less; do more.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## ZDog377

farsidejunky said:


> All talk. You are all talk, Zdog.
> 
> And your wife knows it.
> 
> "Stop...or I'll tell you to stop again."
> 
> Talk less; do more.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Its a losing situation for me if I walk out though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> Its a losing situation for me if I walk out though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There are other ways to inflict consequences without walking out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Duguesclin

ZDog377 said:


> Its a losing situation for me if I walk out though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is your wife happy with you?

You are obviously not happy with her. Do you know what you are not providing to her?

What does she need from you?

Is the weekend just a big, long whine on your side? That would explain why she does not seek you out. She probably feels like she is dragging a whiny kid around.

Providing money is not enough to enslave a woman anymore, Z.


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## Blossom Leigh

Interesting choice of words Dug... Enslave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia

jld said:


> There is a lot of power in just being honest and open yourself, Z, regardless of what your spouse is doing. When one person changes in a marriage, the other person usually responds to the shift.


When you change, your spouse will have to respond to the shift, but it may be not be in a positive way. They may dig in. They may become angry and escalate in anger. Or they may change in a positive direction. But suddenly telling someone all about what you are doing and how you feel is not likely to have a positive impact on a checkout, self-centered person. It will likely just irritate her.



jld said:


> It is surely hard to be the leader in embracing transparency with your spouse when it has not been your lifestyle since the beginning. But it has to start somewhere if you want to resolve problems. Why not with you?


Because she has shown that she is not interested in what he thinks or feels. That is a strong indication that she would not respond well, but would either just roll her eyes or become angry.


----------



## john117

Blossom Leigh said:


> There are other ways to inflict consequences without walking out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Tried that. Doesn't work. 

For some people - those with non functioning self preservation neurons for example - even walking out doesn't work.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ZDog377 said:


> Its a losing situation for me if I walk out though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am not telling you to do that.

Why is it the only action you are willing to mentally consider is leaving?

Edit: I see BL beat me to it.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

Z, why do you allow her to be comfortable in your discomfort?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Cynthia

It is immoral and abusive to inflict consequences on one's spouse. That is punishment. Setting boundaries and not tolerating bad behavior means that we make a choice based on someone's behavior not as a form of punishment (aka consequences), but as a way to be safe. We do something, not with the intent of trying to teach a lesson to an adult, but to be healthy in our own lives.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

john117 said:


> Tried that. Doesn't work.
> 
> For some people - those with non functioning self preservation neurons for example - even walking out doesn't work.


Correct, thats when moving on to a new life becomes the most practical long term solution. Assess both capacity and willingness well and make decisions from there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soccermom2three

jld said:


> Who?
> 
> 
> 
> There is a lot of power in just being honest and open yourself, Z, regardless of what your spouse is doing. When one person changes in a marriage, the other person usually responds to the shift.
> 
> It is surely hard to be the leader in embracing transparency with your spouse when it has not been your lifestyle since the beginning. But it has to start somewhere if you want to resolve problems. Why not with you?


Four years ago, I made the choice to have a very frank and honest discussion with my husband. I let everything out. My husband was very receptive and in turn was honest and open. There was a lot of emotions involved. Today our marriage is the best it has ever been. 

He could've been totally closed off and ignored me BUT at least I would know where I stand, right? I would be hurt, (for a while), but there would be knowledge there that would help me make a decision.

I could've just kept everything inside, let it fester and be extremely miserable four years later. Who knows were we would be. Divorced? Most likely two lonely people living in the same house.


----------



## Cynthia

soccermom2three said:


> Four years ago, I made the choice to have a very frank and honest discussion with my husband. I let everything out. My husband was very receptive and in turn was honest and open. There was a lot of emotions involved. Today our marriage is the best it has ever been.
> 
> He could've been totally closed off and ignored me BUT at least I would know where I stand, right? I would be hurt, (for a while), but there would be knowledge there that would help me make a decision.
> 
> I could've just kept everything inside, let it fester and be extremely miserable four years later. Who knows were we would be. Divorced? Most likely two lonely people living in the same house.


That's not what jld is talking about. She want Zdog to come to TAM and read this thread and she wants him to tell her that he snooped her phone.

Yes, I agree that Zdog need to be open and honest with his wife about his concerns and where he's at in the relationship. That does not include her coming to TAM and telling her that he snooped her phone.


----------



## jld

CynthiaDe said:


> That's not what jld is talking about. She want Zdog to come to TAM and read this thread and she wants him to tell her that he snooped her phone.
> 
> Yes, I agree that Zdog need to be open and honest with his wife about his concerns and where he's at in the relationship. That does not include her coming to TAM and telling her that he snooped her phone.


Why not?

Yes, I am for complete marital transparency. Transparency means nothing hidden. She could learn a lot by reading this thread.


----------



## Cynthia

I think this is a video that could shed some light on who to be completely transparent with and who not to be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8Pp7QB6GrE


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## john117

farsidejunky said:


> Z, why do you allow her to be comfortable in your discomfort?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


As if making her uncomfortable will result in more action...


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Why not?
> 
> Yes, I am for complete marital transparency. Transparency means nothing hidden. She could learn a lot by reading this thread.


She would stop reading at about page 2. If they care about reading they care about fixing things or at least trying.

It is encouraging to have faith in humanity. Personally I have more faith in my cat.


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## jld

CynthiaDe said:


> I think this is a video that could shed some light on who to be completely transparent with and who not to be.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8Pp7QB6GrE


If he cannot be transparent with his wife, he should not be married to her.

Z, are you not telling her because you think she will leave you if she finds out? That she will feel betrayed and violated and just generally deceived? Can you put yourself in her shoes and see how she might feel that way?

The deeper you get into deception, the harder it is to get out. 

Imagine if you had told her before you posted this thread that you were going to do it. Imagine if she had sat by your side to read the responses. Maybe some of them would have had an impact on her. 

But she never had that opportunity. 

Z, I truly believe that transparency, initiated by you, is the only thing that will transform your marriage. Secrets fester like an infection. 

Clean out the wound. Expose it to the light. That is what will heal it. It is the only chance for healing it.


----------



## Duguesclin

CynthiaDe said:


> That's not what jld is talking about. She want Zdog to come to TAM and read this thread and she wants him to tell her that he snooped her phone.
> 
> Yes, I agree that Zdog need to be open and honest with his wife about his concerns and where he's at in the relationship. That does not include her coming to TAM and telling her that *he snooped her phone*.


And that is the reason why spying on your spouse is wrong. It destroys your integrity.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> She would stop reading at about page 2. If they care about reading they care about fixing things or at least trying.
> 
> It is encouraging to have faith in humanity. Personally I have more faith in my cat.


We don't know her. We don't know what her reaction would be. And she has not been given the opportunity to know herself what it would be.

Yes, I think transparency can change relationships. Sometimes it ends them, and that is better for all involved. 

Z, not telling her is very controlling. People who control usually do so out of fear. Fear is understandable, but not very helpful in marriage. 

Please take courage and show your wife this thread. Let her see your thought process. Reading it is indeed different than hearing it. She will be able to focus better when she is reading than when you are talking and the kids are distracting her.


----------



## john117

Transparency requires accountability. 

As it is, Z2 is as transparent as plate glass. 

She's not accountable. Not to herself and not to Z.


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## jld

john117 said:


> Transparency requires accountability.
> 
> As it is, Z2 is as transparent as plate glass.
> 
> She's not accountable. Not to herself and not to Z.


He is not transparent. If he were, she would know about this thread.

She may feel he is not accountable, either. Remember, we have not heard from her.


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## john117

Start with self accountability. Z brings the bacon home every week and is pretty transparent about his needs. 

But Z2 really doesn't even begin to understand what she's in for, let alone what it will do to her and her family. 

I'm a firm believer in self awareness. Know thyself and all that....


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Start with self accountability. Z brings the bacon home every week and is pretty transparent about his needs.
> 
> But Z2 really doesn't even begin to understand what she's in for, let alone what it will do to her and her family.
> 
> I'm a firm believer in self awareness. Know thyself and all that....


She may see herself as very accountable to her family, and her husband as self-centered. Again, we have not heard from her. She has her side, too.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Zdog... I dont know how you havent come apart yet over some of these assumptions about you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ZDog377

Look @jld, you've tried everything you can to get me to bring my wife on here. I'm not going to bring her on here and it probably won't do anything anyways. She doesn't see it as us having a problem. I'll admit I'm not the perfect husband, that's why I came on here.....to see what I was doing wrong and if there was anything I could change. I've received from helpful advice from people and now I just need to act on it. Once again, I am not bringing her on here to read all this.


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> Look @jld, you've tried everything you can to get me to bring my wife on here. I'm not going to bring her on here and it probably won't do anything anyways. She doesn't see it as us having a problem. I'll admit I'm not the perfect husband, that's why I came on here.....to see what I was doing wrong and if there was anything I could change. I've received from helpful advice from people and now I just need to act on it. Once again, I am not bringing her on here to read all this.


Then I don't things will get better, Z. Without transparency, I think you will continue to limp along.


----------



## john117

Z, it could well be that you join a long list of TAM husbands whose wives have all but relegated their self preservation neurons to menial neural functions such as voting and driving 

Three years ago I introduced the concept of NormalPeople (tm) and their counterparts the NotNormalPeople (tm). I would be willing to bet you my pride and joy (Nikon D7000) that you cod file tomorrow and Z2 would not blink. Not because of the details you posted, which aren't very many. But because of the white elephant in the room, her student loan, and her attitude towards it.

If you can't get them to see their issues it's unlikely they will see "your" issues.


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## Blossom Leigh

I think he is smart enough to figure it out what will work in his own home, jld.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

john117 said:


> As if making her uncomfortable will result in more action...


Actually, that is usually the ONLY way people take action - to avoid more discomfort. Psychologically, we are predisposed to stay in whatever rut we're in - until staying there becomes more of a hassle than changing. Any psychologist will tell you that.

And, may I say, it's exactly why YOU have such an unhappy marriage - you WON'T push her into discomfort so she has no reason to change.


----------



## turnera

Duguesclin said:


> And that is the reason why spying on your spouse is wrong. It destroys your integrity.


Wrong. Not when your spouse has started cheating or appears to have. THAT person is in a 'fog' and simply cannot see the truth of their situation - their PEA chemicals have them convinced they're 'in lurve' and everything else/everyone else is just mean and determined to stop them from what they deserve.

I've seen plenty of FORMER waywards who, once out of that fog, have thanked their spouse WHO SPIED to get the truth for doing just that, and rescuing from themselves. The spouse who spies is trying to SAVE the marriage, save it from the cheater destroying it.

THAT is integrity.

The problem with you and jld, Dug, is that you somehow think everyone thinks like you two do - are decent, earnest people who would never be selfish or hurt anyone. And that simply is Pollyanna and it's harmful to act as though such people won't hurt you, or the kids, or the family.


----------



## turnera

john117 said:


> you could file tomorrow and Z2 would not blink. Not because of the details you posted, which aren't very many. But because of the white elephant in the room, her student loan, and her attitude towards it.


Now, let's talk about integrity - or lack therof...letting the government/banks foot your education while you have no intention of paying it back...


----------



## Cynthia

turnera said:


> Now, let's talk about integrity - or lack therof...letting the government/banks foot your education while you have no intention of paying it back...


And no intention of using the degree that you borrowed the money for in the first place.
The idea of educational loans is that the person taking out the loan is training for a job that will pay them enough to pay back the loans for the job. Instead she went to school, found a meal ticket, and seems to have no intention of paying back the loans or working in a job that she went to school to prepare for.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

And sex starving her husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

turnera said:


> Actually, that is usually the ONLY way people take action - to avoid more discomfort. Psychologically, we are predisposed to stay in whatever rut we're in - until staying there becomes more of a hassle than changing. Any psychologist will tell you that.
> 
> And, may I say, it's exactly why YOU have such an unhappy marriage - you WON'T push her into discomfort so she has no reason to change.


You had me going for a moment until the second paragraph then...

Discomfort and other such mental aerobics work well when discomfort is something undesirable. When stress is something undesirable. When the need to be loved and be cared for is important enough that alarms go off.

We ain't gotten this here.

Your typical hardcore LD is well past the point where they care about what's done to them, save financial or physical abuse I suppose. In many (celebrated) cases in TAM we have seen time after time where the LD spouse will prefer a divorce or the continuation of marital disaster rather than play along. Why?

It's our friends the self preservation neurons all over again.

The moment the discomfort cranks up in their eyes they're martyrs on the way to the kingdom with the 67 virgins (get it?). They are validated. They are right. Their jihad is meaningful and the a-hole HD is the ENEMY. 

These jihadis will feel no discomfort WHATSOEVER all the way to the divorce lawyer office and the courthouse. Eventually they will get the message but by then it will be too late.

Think how some of those LD jihadis became such. By stress, self pity, self doubts, low self esteem, self hate, FOO, and more negatives than I could come up with. And you seriously think a mere 180 or discomfort will work? Are we dealing with the Iron Lady here or Barbie?

The only discomfort you can cause that matters is financial and they can read the playbook as well as you can. They know physical abuse is nekulturny so they have to content by not getting the shiny things in life. Martyrdom 101 material.


----------



## john117

turnera said:


> Now, let's talk about integrity - or lack therof...letting the government/banks foot your education while you have no intention of paying it back...


And somehow this person will be discomforted into "meeting her marital obligations"???


----------



## turnera

Who cares? If the OP had the balls to leave her, THEN she would have to ask herself what she was going to do about her bills and the IRS. As long as he keeps covering for her, she has no need to.

Comfort comes in more forms than financial, john. But since you never attempt to address any of it, you'll never know.


----------



## john117

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



turnera said:


> Who cares? If the OP had the balls to leave her, THEN she would have to ask herself what she was going to do about her bills and the IRS. As long as he keeps covering for her, she has no need to.
> 
> Comfort comes in more forms than financial, john. But since you never attempt to address any of it, you'll never know.


Sigh.

She has demonstrated she does not care about the student loans. It's not an issue for her. It never happened. It's not there.

How are you going to make her feel uncomfortable if she does not care? She has more to gain in a divorce, it may even buy her time for loans.

Has she demonstrated she cares about what he brings to the table?

Almost feels like she's egging him on.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

If she is apathetic then its game over anyway, john... Dont you think?

Zdog is still willing to explore his options that could illicit a response from her. 

Who are we to tell him to stop.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Biblically it is right to rebuke. We are not called to be unicorns and roses with everyone around us... see below...


*Rebuke: express sharp disapproval or criticism of (someone) because of their behavior or actions *


*Matthew 18:15-17 *

“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 


*Proverbs 27:5* 

Better is open rebuke than hidden love. 


*1 Timothy 5:20* 

As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. 


*Titus 2:15 * 

Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.



And yet as you can see it is important how you do it and I think this is where we all find disagreement here on TAM:

*Romans 12:17-19 - Recompense to no man evil for evil.*

I believe it is to be done in the spirit of love and FOR their restoration. And without question her attitude toward her student loan is sinful and is rightful to be rebuked.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

And here are some about admonishing... which means to warn or reprimand someone firmly.


1 Thessalonians 5:14

And we urge you, brothers, *admonish the idle*, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak,* be patient with them all.

*
1 Corinthians 4:14

I do not write these things to make you ashamed, but to *admonish you as my beloved children* (see spirit of love and to produce fruitfulness).


----------



## jld

I think all that will fall on deaf ears, Blossom. She feels the debt hole is so deep that she can never get out of it. She has given up.

It is a shame our country allows young people to do this to themselves.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> Now, let's talk about integrity - or lack therof...letting the government/banks foot your education while you have no intention of paying it back...


It is not that she was not trying. She has made payments. But when the interest alone per month is $700, no wonder she feels it is impossible to ever overcome.

Turnera, didn't you mention once that you and your husband are 150k+ in debt from your husband's poor real estate investments? You gave that as the reason that you stay with him even though you are generally unhappy in your marriage.

I am sure digging out of a $150k hole seems like a big challenge. And your husband was in his 40s when he made those investments, correct? Not 18. Why no empathy for Z's wife?


----------



## john117

Because she chose high loans and a low paying career path. You don't need to be 40 to know where this is headed.


----------



## jld

CynthiaDe said:


> And no intention of using the degree that you borrowed the money for in the first place.
> The idea of educational loans is that the person taking out the loan is training for a job that will pay them enough to pay back the loans for the job. Instead she went to school, found a meal ticket, and seems to have no intention of paying back the loans or working in a job that she went to school to prepare for.


Found a meal ticket?

Z said she was a single mom who had just bought a house when he met her. I doubt she could have gotten a mortgage without a job.

And she stayed with him despite their being told that he could not father children. I think that shows great love and sacrifice on her part.

Then they were unexpectedly blessed with two children. And it would have been very expensive to put them in daycare. I think he said there would not have been anything left after paying the costs. 

And who is to say that her work on the PTA will not lead to a contact for a full-time professional job? Probably great opportunities for networking there.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Because she chose high loans and a low paying career path. You don't need to be 40 to know where this is headed.


Not every 18 yo is savvy, john. And her parents were not helping her.

What was turnera's husband's excuse?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Jld, its not about her reaction to it, but his choice to speak the truth regardless. If she doesnt respond then he can allow her to feel the consequence of her apathy about it like wrecked credit scores and inability to get things she wants because she cant get funding. He can provide her needs, but withdraw his hand of help on her wants. Him notallowing her to feel that is blocking her growth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Jld, its not about her reaction to it, but his choice to speak the truth regardless. If she doesnt respond then he can allow her to feel the consequence of her apathy about it like wrecked credit scores and inability to get things she wants because she cant get funding. He can provide her needs, but withdraw his hand of help on her wants. Him notallowing her to feel that is blocking her growth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I certainly agree he should be speaking the truth to her. In all areas.

I am guessing her credit scores are already as low as can be, or soon will be. I cannot imagine her ever qualifying for more loans.

Lots of room for growth for both of them in this marriage, I think . . .


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Not every 18 yo is savvy, john. And her parents were not helping her.
> 
> What was turnera's husband's excuse?


It's simple math.

DD 1 went to a prestigious out of state public school. With scholarships the cost was decent. she's halfway through her MA in a prestigious but unassuming out of state public. She will do her doctorate in a similar school. Why? Because grad school at Yale is $200-250k for a job that does not pay more than $60k a year at first. She understands the math.

DD 2 is wrapping up pre-med next year in a private school. With scholarships it's still pricy. Then there's med school which is $250k easily. If you take a loan on that it's not a big issue because starting salaries are in the $170's. She also understands the math. 

Unless the 18 year old lived in a hippy commune there's no such thing as not savvy. All the information is out there.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> It's simple math.
> 
> DD 1 went to a prestigious out of state public school. With scholarships the cost was decent. she's halfway through her MA in a prestigious but unassuming out of state public. She will do her doctorate in a similar school. Why? Because grad school at Yale is $200-250k for a job that does not pay more than $60k a year at first. She understands the math.
> 
> DD 2 is wrapping up pre-med next year in a private school. With scholarships it's still pricy. Then there's med school which is $250k easily. If you take a loan on that it's not a big issue because starting salaries are in the $170's. She also understands the math.
> 
> Unless the 18 year old lived in a hippy commune there's no such thing as not savvy. All the information is out there.


And if she had parents as savvy as you, john, I bet she would have understood that. 

We need a different system for financing higher education.


----------



## turnera

I have you on ignore, jld, so I don't know what you were talking about, but I saw in a link that you asked something about my husband. Somebody want to fill me in?


----------



## Miss Independent

*Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*

.


----------



## ZDog377

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



john117 said:


> Sigh.
> 
> She has demonstrated she does not care about the student loans. It's not an issue for her. It never happened. It's not there.
> 
> How are you going to make her feel uncomfortable if she does not care? She has more to gain in a divorce, it may even buy her time for loans.
> 
> Has she demonstrated she cares about what he brings to the table?
> 
> Almost feels like she's egging him on.


It's easy to see, she was all over me this morning. Our oldest wasn't around, the other two were in the living room watching TV. Fast forward to late this morning, she doesn't have time for anything because she's making one of her friends a cake for her birthday and plus we have picked the oldest up from a friends house where he stayed overnight. Lunchtime comes and mind you, we are trying to teach the oldest to watch how he eats because he is over weight for his age. He eats one bowl of taco salad and comes into the kitchen where I'm making mine. He asks for more, I ask him if he needs the second bowl. He puts his bowl in the sink and pouts as he is walking out of the room. I didn't even get a chance to tell him if he was still hungry he could have a piece of fruit or something like that. Under her breath she says "do you need to eat those tortilla chips you're eating or drinking that iced tea you're drinking?" 

She says she's just voicing her opinion.......


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*

Are you overweight?

More precisely what is your BMI?

Why haven't you had a 1-1 conversation with Z2 about how you two plan to try and help your child be more fit?




ZDog377 said:


> It's easy to see, she was all over me this morning. Our oldest wasn't around, the other two were in the living room watching TV. Fast forward to late this morning, she doesn't have time for anything because she's making one of her friends a cake for her birthday and plus we have picked the oldest up from a friends house where he stayed overnight. Lunchtime comes and mind you, we are trying to teach the oldest to watch how he eats because he is over weight for his age. He eats one bowl of taco salad and comes into the kitchen where I'm making mine. He asks for more, I ask him if he needs the second bowl. He puts his bowl in the sink and pouts as he is walking out of the room. I didn't even get a chance to tell him if he was still hungry he could have a piece of fruit or something like that. Under her breath she says "do you need to eat those tortilla chips you're eating or drinking that iced tea you're drinking?"
> 
> She says she's just voicing her opinion.......


----------



## jld

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ZDog377 said:


> It's easy to see, she was all over me this morning. Our oldest wasn't around, the other two were in the living room watching TV. Fast forward to late this morning, she doesn't have time for anything because she's making one of her friends a cake for her birthday and plus we have picked the oldest up from a friends house where he stayed overnight. Lunchtime comes and mind you, we are trying to teach the oldest to watch how he eats because he is over weight for his age. He eats one bowl of taco salad and comes into the kitchen where I'm making mine. He asks for more, I ask him if he needs the second bowl. He puts his bowl in the sink and pouts as he is walking out of the room. I didn't even get a chance to tell him if he was still hungry he could have a piece of fruit or something like that. Under her breath she says "do you need to eat those tortilla chips you're eating or drinking that iced tea you're drinking?"
> 
> She says she's just voicing her opinion.......


Please be careful with what you tell him. He is only 10. You don't want him developing a complex about food and possibly an eating disorder.

I know a family where the oldest boy was pretty heavy until 13 or so. Gosh, that kid must have been at least 30 lbs. overweight. 

Today he is 16, over 6 feet, and slim as a reed.

Make sure there is healthy food in the house for everyone to eat. Exercise as a family--go to a park, bike rides, etc. But please do not put too much pressure on him. Your family has enough problems already.


----------



## ZDog377

So just to clarify things, here is the timeline of the student loan situation:

She was finishing up her masters when we started dated (~ 1 year left). She graduated a month or so before we got married. She had two jobs before we decided to have kids. One she had to leave because the place shut down. While she was employed, she was making payments based on Income Based Repayment. When we both agreed for her to stay at home with the kids, she was going to look for an at home job so that we would at least have an income. She applied for a decent amount, but it was interesting what some of them came back as. She would watch some kids in the morning before our oldest got on the bus but then the parents ran into a paying problem. She has for the past year or so watching a girl before our oldest gets on the bus. It's not much, but it helps I guess.


----------



## Cynthia

Having more taco salad would be better for him than a piece of fruit. We should eat until we are satisfied, not full, but satisfied.

For some reasons you wife told you her concerns without directly speaking to you. It would have been good if you would have told her that you want to hear what she thinks so the two of you could work through it together. Come to an agreement of what is best for your child, then follow through together. You should be in unity and not shame your child, but help him and be on the same page together with him as well.


----------



## ZDog377

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



jld said:


> Please be careful with what you tell him. He is only 10. You don't want him developing a complex about food and possibly an eating disorder.
> 
> I know a family where the oldest boy was pretty heavy until 13 or so. Gosh, that kid must have been at least 30 lbs. overweight.
> 
> Today he is 16, over 6 feet, and slim as a reed.
> 
> Make sure there is healthy food in the house for everyone to eat. Exercise as a family--go to a park, bike rides, etc. But please do not put too much pressure on him. Your family has enough problems already.


That's why I tried phrase it as a question. I was going to let him tell me that he needed it and then suggest something healthier if he was still hungry.


----------



## ZDog377

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



MEM11363 said:


> Are you overweight?
> 
> More precisely what is your BMI?
> 
> Why haven't you had a 1-1 conversation with Z2 about how you two plan to try and help your child be more fit?


I'll admit that my BMI is past the overweight range and into the obese range. Her and I have talked and we both agreed that we need to watch how much he eats. He's into various sports and loves to be outside. His pediatrician has said that he's getting enough exercise, he just needs to watch what he eats.


----------



## jld

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ZDog377 said:


> I'll admit that my BMI is past the overweight range and into the obese range. Her and I have talked and we both agreed that we need to watch how much he eats. He's into various sports and loves to be outside. His pediatrician has said that he's getting enough exercise, he just needs to watch what he eats.


"Do what I say, not what I do?"

Z, you have to be the example. Unless you take a humble/humorous tone with him and say, "You don't want to end up like me, do you?"


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*

Zdog,
I think my biggest concern regarding your communication style - is - when you look at a situation - you aren't all that quick to see your contribution to the result. 

I think you are honest. But not candid. Meaning that you don't tend to volunteer stuff that is relevant - when it is unflattering.

If I was your kid - I might feel like you were totally double standarding me. Wouldn't like it. 





ZDog377 said:


> I'll admit that my BMI is past the overweight range and into the obese range. Her and I have talked and we both agreed that we need to watch how much he eats. He's into various sports and loves to be outside. His pediatrician has said that he's getting enough exercise, he just needs to watch what he eats.


----------



## jld

Z, is your weight a factor in your wife's lack of sexual attraction to you? Has she mentioned this?

And on MEM's note, are there other things you have not told us that could be a shortcut to giving you more finely-tuned advice?


----------



## Phil Anders

page 84 of this "my wife won't have sex with me" thread and we finally learn that OP is obese? That's BMI>30...

Her avoidance and excuses where it comes to sex suddenly make a lot more sense. Can't fake attraction.

I'm going to guess, from your traveling lifestyle & notion that fruit="healthy", that you eat a ton of carbs...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> Z, is your weight a factor in your wife's lack of sexual attraction to you? Has she mentioned this?
> 
> And on MEM's note, are there other things you have not told us that could be a shortcut to giving you more finely-tuned advice?


I don't believe so, I have asked multiple times. She is in the same situation I am as well. I'm going to the gym and trying to get the weight off and it's working although not as quick as I would like.


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I don't believe so, I have asked multiple times. She is in the same situation I am as well. I'm going to the gym and trying to get the weight off and it's working although not as quick as I would like.


I don't know if this is relevant, but one married couple I know are quite obese and have often gone sexless for months or maybe more at a time. It is not something I would have asked about, but the wife mentioned it once when we were chatting. Perhaps it is just harder to have intercourse when both are obese?


----------



## ZDog377

Phil Anders said:


> page 84 of this "my wife won't have sex with me" thread and we finally learn that OP is obese? That's BMI>30...
> 
> Her avoidance and excuses where it comes to sex suddenly make a lot more sense. Can't fake attraction.
> 
> I'm going to guess, from your traveling lifestyle & notion that fruit="healthy", that you eat a ton of carbs...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've been trying to cut back over the past few months. Like I said, it's not happening fast, but I'm getting there slowly.


----------



## MEM2020

Z,
Having read a lot of threads - maybe I can point you in the right direction here.

There appear to be a large pool of HD - husbands - who can ONLY tolerate the truth - if it remains unspoken. 

There's another active thread - wife is clearly not attracted to her H. She tolerates sex with him - but it's obvious that she is only tolerating it. 

There are guys on that thread - telling her that: If she acknowledges the obvious truth of her actions - he will leave her.

This is why my advice in these situations is fairly consistent.

Acknowledge the glaringly obvious truth, without fear or hurt or aggression, and patiently try to understand the WHY of it.

For example: 
It's obvious that you've lost your attraction to me. 

It would be great if we could work on regaining that together. 

You my man, need to recognize some basic human wiring. There are a couple of big inhibitors to your wife admitting a connection between your weight and her desire:
1. Fear of you labeling her as shallow
2. Fear of being called a hypocrite
3. Fear of you pressuring her to lose weight with you

I'm not saying it IS a big factor. I'm saying that she has a lot of good reasons to claim it isn't. 

Tell you this though - the way you are parenting - that lowers her respect for you. And most women, don't feel desire for a man they don't respect. 

This is a great opportunity for you to lead by example. Doesn't quite sound like that is happening. 

Far as it goes - your instincts are good. Your delivery needs some work.

You should have LED with: how about a salad or a piece of fruit

Instead of leading with: do you really need to keep eating?





ZDog377 said:


> I don't believe so, I have asked multiple times. She is in the same situation I am as well. I'm going to the gym and trying to get the weight off and it's working although not as quick as I would like.


----------



## ZDog377

MEM11363 said:


> Z,
> Having read a lot of threads - maybe I can point you in the right direction here.
> 
> There appear to be a large pool of HD - husbands - who can ONLY tolerate the truth - if it remains unspoken.
> 
> There's another active thread - wife is clearly not attracted to her H. She tolerates sex with him - but it's obvious that she is only tolerating it.
> 
> There are guys on that thread - telling her that: If she acknowledges the obvious truth of her actions - he will leave her.
> 
> This is why my advice in these situations is fairly consistent.
> 
> Acknowledge the glaringly obvious truth, without fear or hurt or aggression, and patiently try to understand the WHY of it.
> 
> For example:
> It's obvious that you've lost your attraction to me.
> 
> It would be great if we could work on regaining that together.
> 
> You my man, need to recognize some basic human wiring. There are a couple of big inhibitors to your wife admitting a connection between your weight and her desire:
> 1. Fear of you labeling her as shallow
> 2. Fear of being called a hypocrite
> 3. Fear of you pressuring her to lose weight with you
> 
> I'm not saying it IS a big factor. I'm saying that she has a lot of good reasons to claim it isn't.
> 
> Tell you this though - the way you are parenting - that lowers her respect for you. And most women, don't feel desire for a man they don't respect.
> 
> This is a great opportunity for you to lead by example. Doesn't quite sound like that is happening.
> 
> Far as it goes - your instincts are good. Your delivery needs some work.
> 
> You should have LED with: how about a salad or a piece of fruit
> 
> Instead of leading with: do you really need to keep eating?


I've asked her to tell me the truth multiple times but she can't give me an answer. I've told her I want to know what it is so I can work on it. She is trying to lose the weight as well, even though she is wanting to go the surgery route instead. She already had the surgery (bypass) about six years ago but it didn't work as well as she thought it would. 

I agree my delivery stinks at times. I've been working on it, the problem is her and I are so far apart on disciplining the kids. She feels she should be their friend first and parent second, I'm the exact opposite.


----------



## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> I don't believe so, I have asked multiple times. She is in the same situation I am as well. I'm going to the gym and trying to get the weight off and it's working although not as quick as I would like.


Based on your post about your son's food choices, this is because you do not understand proper nutrition and weight loss. No added sugar. Low fruit. Low grain or no grain. Low dairy. The largest portion of food you eat should be vegetables. Enough protein in the form of fish, poultry, and lean meats.


----------



## lifeistooshort

I agree with MEM. I think it's very likely your weight is a factor and, as he pointed out, there are a number of reasons she might not admit it, especially if she's overweight too.

Women are very conscious of this for our own weight because we know men are visual. Men think women aren't as visual so they don't realize weight bothers them, and men are fed lots of media that shows the fat idiot with a hot wife. 

And women are brought up not to hurt feelings. That's why so many are silent when they don't get what they need in the bedroom. 

Find me something in media that shows a fat woman with a hot dude that's not a joke.

The fact is that fat people are often not attracted to other fat people. 

It's not shallow, love and lust can be and often ate mutually exclusive. Think about it: you want sex with your wife because it's a need, and you love her. But if you had no connection to her would you be attracted? Maybe, just something to think about. 

As much as I love my hb if he was obese I would not be attracted to him and at best might tolerate it. Maybe. But as he is, even if we had no ties I'd still want to jump him. That's what gets you through tough times physically. 

The snarky comments under the breath help nothing, in fact your sons situation is both of your faults because he learned his habits from you two.

Here's my advice, and I've been running since middle school and never had a weight issue except a couple of times I went through some depression and ate too much. 

People will say "but you run". Eh, it doesn't burn as much as you think unless you're a professional that puts in 120 miles a week. Not feasible for those of us with a job and responsibilities. Most of it is diet control. 

First, get rid of the processed crap. Cook real food. Taco salad is the worst crap of the salad family. Start eating green salad without dressing..... it ruins salad. At that point you're better off with a burger.

I put red onion and maybe a sprinkle of feta cheese on mine and it's quite filling. Put some nice protein in it, whatever you want as long as it's not processed, and you can eat a ton of it. 

Lead by example and your family will notice and want to know your secret. My 12 and 15 year olds have no issue eating decent food and walking away when they're full because they see me do it. 

Also, I have a 10 minute rule after the second plate. ... that they have to go away for 10 minutes and if they're still hungry they can come back. I tell them they look great but this is a habit they need to take into adulthood. And there is no food in the bedroom where they have computers. Of you to eat you have to get off the game and come to the kitchen, and sit down. I don't really enforce the 10 minute rule much these days because they self regulate. 

And there is little to no snacking in my house. There are meals and the kids know when meals are coming.

If you drink, stop. Alcohol is terrible crap for the waistline. 

My boys are now noticing that a lot of their schoolmates are chubbing out and they're not, so they appreciate it. 

Adopt these habits and your weight will drop.

And guess what? I do a little dessert every night but it's small.....as in ice cream on a tea cup. I've even got hubby eating it out of a tea cup now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Life is QFT - for this - great post

And I will add for emphasis - sugary drinks are fvcking murderous. 

Lots of calories - without producing a satiety response. All sugary drinks need to go immediately. 






lifeistooshort said:


> I agree with MEM. I think it's very likely your weight is a factor and, as he pointed out, there are a number of reasons she might not admit it, especially if she's overweight too.
> 
> Women are very conscious of this for our own weight because we know men are visual. Men think women aren't as visual so they don't realize weight bothers them, and men are fed lots of media that shows the fat idiot with a hot wife.
> 
> And women are brought up not to hurt feelings. That's why so many are silent when they don't get what they need in the bedroom.
> 
> Find me something in media that shows a fat woman with a hot dude that's not a joke.
> 
> The fact is that fat people are often not attracted to other fat people.
> 
> It's not shallow, love and lust can be and often ate mutually exclusive. Think about it: you want sex with your wife because it's a need, and you love her. But if you had no connection to her would you be attracted? Maybe, just something to think about.
> 
> As much as I love my hb if he was obese I would not be attracted to him and at best might tolerate it. Maybe. But as he is, even if we had no ties I'd still want to jump him. That's what gets you through tough times physically.
> 
> The snarky comments under the breath help nothing, in fact your sons situation is both of your faults because he learned his habits from you two.
> 
> Here's my advice, and I've been running since middle school and never had a weight issue except a couple of times I went through some depression and ate too much.
> 
> People will say "but you run". Eh, it doesn't burn as much as you think unless you're a professional that puts in 120 miles a week. Not feasible for those of us with a job and responsibilities. Most of it is diet control.
> 
> First, get rid of the processed crap. Cook real food. Taco salad is the worst crap of the salad family. Start eating green salad without dressing..... it ruins salad. At that point you're better off with a burger.
> 
> I put red onion and maybe a sprinkle of feta cheese on mine and it's quite filling. Put some nice protein in it, whatever you want as long as it's not processed, and you can eat a ton of it.
> 
> Lead by example and your family will notice and want to know your secret. My 12 and 15 year olds have no issue eating decent food and walking away when they're full because they see me do it.
> 
> Also, I have a 10 minute rule after the second plate. ... that they have to go away for 10 minutes and if they're still hungry they can come back. I tell them they look great but this is a habit they need to take into adulthood. And there is no food in the bedroom where they have computers. Of you to eat you have to get off the game and come to the kitchen, and sit down. I don't really enforce the 10 minute rule much these days because they self regulate.
> 
> And there is little to no snacking in my house. There are meals and the kids know when meals are coming.
> 
> If you drink, stop. Alcohol is terrible crap for the waistline.
> 
> My boys are now noticing that a lot of their schoolmates are chubbing out and they're not, so they appreciate it.
> 
> Adopt these habits and your weight will drop.
> 
> And guess what? I do a little dessert every night but it's small.....as in ice cream on a tea cup. I've even got hubby eating it out of a tea cup now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

lifeistooshort said:


> It's not shallow, love and lust can be and often ate mutually exclusive. Think about it: you want sex with your wife because it's a need, and you love her. But if you had no connection to her would you be attracted? Maybe, just something to think about.
> 
> As much as I love my hb if he was obese I would not be attracted to him and at best might tolerate it. Maybe. But as he is, even if we had no ties I'd still want to jump him. That's what gets you through tough times physically.


There is so much truth in this.

Not 30 minutes ago, my wife and I were out tending to the horses, and this crossed my mind. My wife is a full 50 lbs heavier than when we met, while I am slightly lighter. She sort of does fitness, and eats terribly.

I accept it because I love her, and have encouraged her to work out and eat better with some sparse results.

If I were to meet my wife on the street, without knowing her personality, I would find her cute, but not pursuit worthy.

I know her, so that causes me to see her differently. But not everyone is wired that way, either.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*

I just came out if the bathroom, and she is having apples and some kind of spinach and feta something... 

Sometimes life makes me smile.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

ZD do yuo have HBO or HBOGo?


----------



## ZDog377

She's not at the point where I consider her undesirable yet, except I know she is not happy with herself. She did Atkins for a few weeks and then got frustrated because the weight loss came to halt. We have a treadmill in the living room that rarely gets used. It's hard because she knows I will support her through pretty much anything. 

There is definitely no sugary drinks in the house. The main problem would probably have to be snack type foods. It's almost easier for me to eat better when I'm out on the road vs. when I'm home.


----------



## lifeistooshort

MEM11363 said:


> Life is QFT - for this - great post
> 
> And I will add for emphasis - sugary drinks are fvcking murderous.
> 
> Lots of calories - without producing a satiety response. All sugary drinks need to go immediately.


Absolutely. People badly underestimate how much drink, even without alcohol. 

Screw the lemonade, fruit juice, all of that crap. Drink water.

I don't even drink Gatorade unless I've run more then an hour and I make it myself from the powder, so it's a little weak. I also really like a coke, but I have to have run at least 45 minutes and I am limited to a can. Throw away the diet, that crap is horrible. When I got rid of it I started sleeping much better.

If you take my advice don't be surprised if you feel like crap for a week or two. That's sugar and processed crap withdrawal. .... it'll pass.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort

farsidejunky said:


> There is so much truth in this.
> 
> Not 30 minutes ago, my wife and I were out tending to the horses, and this crossed my mind. My wife is a full 50 lbs heavier than when we met, while I am slightly lighter. She sort of does fitness, and eats terribly.
> 
> I accept it because I love her, and have encouraged her to work out and eat better with some sparse results.
> 
> If I were to meet my wife on the street, without knowing her personality, I would find her cute, but not pursuit worthy.
> 
> I know her, so that causes me to see her differently. But not everyone is wired that way, either.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


And that's the case as long as you're generally happy with your wife. I think, right? 

When you're going through tough times and your spouse can't make toast right because your po'd at them, all of that extra weight will suddenly be an issue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

lifeistooshort said:


> And that's the case as long as you're generally happy with your wife. I think, right?
> 
> When you're going through tough times and your spouse can't make toast right because your po'd at them, all of that extra weight will suddenly be an issue.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes to both.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## happy as a clam

I think both of you being overweight is definitely contributing to the sex issues. You guys need a seriously HONEST conversation about it. And then a plan to change it.

Basically, if I t doesn't walk, crawl, swim or fly or can't be found growing in nature -- DON'T EAT IT. That eliminates about 90% of the crap sold in grocery stores. Do Cheetos grow on trees? Nope! So don't eat it. Do French fries grow in fields? No, but potatoes do. Ditch the French fries and eat the potatoes baked or roasted. It really is simple when you boil it down to solid nutrition.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Phil Anders

Everyone has an opinion when it comes to diet. Suffice it to say, I've been where you are and worse. What worked for me was:

-daily carb under 50g most days

-macro caloric breakdown of 10-15% carb, 30% protein, 65-70% fat (yep, FAT, the stuff your body needs to remember how to burn. Ignore the hysteria and just try it)

-group in as few daily meals as possible. No snacking. No breakfast "because breakfast": eat when you're hungry, until you're not. This is important since when you start burning your fat reserves your appetite will tank & you'll forget to eat. (Again, ignore the hysteria, fasting 8-20 hours when you aren't noticeably hungry will not kill you.)

-not counting calories, not conscious deprivation, not weight watchers points, but simply eating to satiety. Hunger should work FOR you.

-lots of long walks, hikes, bike rides, eventually running. Seek hills. Forget the stupid PTA meeting & take the whole family. 10 minutes of hi intensity stairs beats making excuses, if free time is scarce.

-commitment to a sustainable plan. This doesn't happen in a month, and there are stalls along the way.

Typical: 8-16oz steak or salmon, giant green salad with avocado, nuts, egg, feta, olive oil dressing. No heavily processed crap. No "low fat" or "fat free" or "gluten free" substitutes. No margarine or corn/canola/soybean oil (just use butter, lard, olive oil). No grains, no added sugars, very few starches (omg, whole food groups! Ignore the hysteria...) Look up whole 30 if you want the most restrictive list.

In 2 years, over 130lb gone, incipient diabetes gone, apnea gone, GERD gone, all blood work normalized (yep, down to 190 cholesterol on a 70% fat diet). All that kinda made up for the loss of bread & pasta & cereal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

Life,
There's another factor at play here. Perhaps it is ugly, but it's true. 

I'll call this the dating quotient (DQ).  So - ummm - I've been very transparent about M2 from the start. She acts - more like a girlfriend than a wife. This is both good and bad. Mostly good 

Thing is, in some key ways that is also true in reverse. Meaning I act as much like a "boy friend" as a husband. 

A component of that is - physicality. I'm rarely more than 10 pounds and 30 days from being the super fit guy she married. Equally important - the fun - adventurous guy she dated. 

Reason this matters so much with M2 - is - she absolutely believes that were she to leave - I'd pair up with someone else fairly easily. 

A big reason Zdog - is where he is - neither he nor his wife believes that is true for him.






lifeistooshort said:


> And that's the case as long as you're generally happy with your wife. I think, right?
> 
> When you're going through tough times and your spouse can't make toast right because your po'd at them, all of that extra weight will suddenly be an issue.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> She's not at the point where I consider her undesirable yet, except I know she is not happy with herself.


You were right to encourage her to do things she enjoys, like the PTO. If she did not have that passion in her life, she would probably eat even more and get even fatter.

I am more convinced than ever that you need transparency in your marriage, and that you need to be the example of it to your family. Your example is powerful, Z.

Do you cope with stress with food? I tend to do that, too. And I totally understand how your wife does. It is stressful to be with little kids everyday, all day. 

When I had all little kids, I was overweight. Eating rich food was how I coped. 

Then one day I had a cancer scare, and that put a lot of fear in me. I stopped eating dairy products and oil. Just ate beans, whole grains, veggies and fruit, as much as I wanted. It only took 2 months to get to a normal bmi (lost 10 pounds per month). Inexpensive, too.

I don't think there is any way for your son to lose weight if you and your wife are not setting the example. And you have the fortunate distraction of work, and not being near a kitchen all day. So be the leader in healthy food choices and weight loss. Inspire your family with your success.

And I would not recommend trying to use fear of your leaving her for another woman to try to manipulate your wife. I think she would see that for what it is, and make her even more okay with letting you go. She has been on her own before, and she knows she can do it again. And she is obviously a loving, devoted mother, so would make sure the kids would be well taken care of.

The way to make your marriage better is to connect with your wife on a deep level. Nurture her spirit. Listen attentively. Examine your own conscience. Inspire her.


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## john117

It is easy to date your wife and rip six-packs and be the coolest dude ever when (a) you don't have her looming student loans over your head (B) both you and your spouse have a firm grasp of reality (c) when you have plenty of time to be together.

If you have a $700 monthly payment and no good way to get it without financial strain, a $700 bicycle for fitness or $700 romantic getaway for the weekend becomes as practical as the Atkins diet in a starving country. 

The suggestions made, while in good faith, completely ignore the root cause - that Z2 is not working making meaningful income to address her loan. For a collective that prides itself in empathy this is borderline hilarious because the answer is right in front of you. 

Desire does not appear magically if the loan is paid on time, but desire surely disappears if the loan isn't paid, along with reality.


----------



## lifeistooshort

MEM11363 said:


> Life,
> There's another factor at play here. Perhaps it is ugly, but it's true.
> 
> I'll call this the dating quotient (DQ). So - ummm - I've been very transparent about M2 from the start. She acts - more like a girlfriend than a wife. This is both good and bad. Mostly good
> 
> Thing is, in some key ways that is also true in reverse. Meaning I act as much like a "boy friend" as a husband.
> 
> A component of that is - physicality. I'm rarely more than 10 pounds and 30 days from being the super fit guy she married. Equally important - the fun - adventurous guy she dated.
> 
> Reason this matters so much with M2 - is - she absolutely believes that were she to leave - I'd pair up with someone else fairly easily.
> 
> A big reason Zdog - is where he is - neither he nor his wife believes that is true for him.


I agree with this. My hb knows darn good and well that I could replace him, and I too am pretty much where I was when we met fitness wise. 

The only real difference is that I'm 11 years older then when we meg and I make more then twice as much money as when we met. Horrible problem to have right? 

And my hb keeps himself too..... he is very aware of his fitness. And I think the fact that he has a younger wife in good shape helps keep him motivated. 

He could replace me too, but it would be harder only because of the age. If he was willing to have a woman his age he'd have no trouble at all. 

Objectively speaking Z is not a good catch for someone else. I don't doubt he's a decent guy, but what does he really have to offer another woman? I was saying that before I even knew he was obese..... if he leaves his wife what will he have? A ton of alimony and CS payments, even if he finds a gf he'll never see her while he travels and she'll get tired of it, and now I realize he has obesity working against him. 

He'll be a part time parent, but he's already a part time parent.

I don't think everyone pushing him to basically try to manipulate his wife into putting out by threatening to leave understand what a gamble they're pushing him to take. If his wife folds he might get some sex, most of it probably tolerated, but if she calls his bluff and tells him to basically fvck off his life is going to be wrecked. I'm not sure even he understands that. True his wife will need to get a job but she's likely going to have to get one anyway. 

His wife will replace him, even at a few pounds overweight. Z is going to be the loser here. He'd be so much better off to stop with the neediness and take your advices to find out what he can really do to address the issues.

And frankly both of them acted irresponsibly when they decided she'd stay home with no plan of how to attack those loans that she was paying on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

Life, I don't think she was expecting to get pregnant. They were told he could not father children.

I think she is overwhelmed. I think the overeating is part of that.


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## jld

John, I don't think the loan figures into her desire. She simply does not feel inspired by him. That does figure into her desire.


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## Holdingontoit

Always start with "up your game". Might work on your current partner. Puts you in better position to find another. Tremendously increases the odds that destabilization will work successfully. I agree with jld and life that destabilizing from a position of weakness (out of shape, finances a mess) could make things even worse.


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## john117

jld said:


> John, I don't think the loan figures into her desire. She simply does not feel inspired by him. That does figure into her desire.


She would be inspired by my cat if my cat could pay off the loan. 

Loan creates stress which kills desire. It's that simple.


----------



## john117

Holdingontoit said:


> Always start with "up your game". Might work on your current partner. Puts you in better position to find another. Tremendously increases the odds that destabilization will work successfully. I agree with jld and life that destabilizing from a position of weakness (out of shape, finances a mess) could make things even worse.


Try upping your fitness and cool game when you have a second mortgage hanging over your head... with no house to show for it.

This is worth walking out if I was Z only to avoid being stuck with the loan, regardless of intimacy. 

Is the term "show stopper" not popular outside Kentucky?


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> She would be inspired by my cat if my cat could pay off the loan.
> 
> Loan creates stress which kills desire. It's that simple.


I don't think it is that. I am sure she feels bad about the loan, but I don't think it is killing her desire for Z.

The way he treats her oldest son might be, though.


----------



## lifeistooshort

john117 said:


> She would be inspired by my cat if my cat could pay off the loan.
> 
> Loan creates stress which kills desire. It's that simple.


According to Z she was making payments before the kids and they decided together that she'd stay home. 

His travelling might not be sustainable with her working full time and taking care of three kids. 

The two of them decided she'd stop working without a plan for those loans. That's a failure on both their parts. They are married but Z has now taken the position that this debt is hers and he gets nothing out of it. Not an attitude of partnership that contributes to desire. When you're married you're supposed to be a team. 

You can certainly argue that her loans aren't his problem, except that she's staying home and picking up the slack for him being an absentee most of the time. 

If he wants to take this attitude of those loans are HER problem then he should get a local job and pick up his part of running the house. Then she can go back to work and start paying on them. 

It's kind of sh!tty to take the attitude that this is her problem, particularly when she's been home picking up his part. Having a job doesn't absolve one of contributing to the running of the household beyond bills.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Phil Anders

john117 said:


> If you have a $700 monthly payment and no good way to get it without financial strain, a $700 bicycle for fitness or $700 romantic getaway for the weekend becomes as practical as the Atkins diet in a starving country.
> 
> The suggestions made, while in good faith, completely ignore the root cause - that Z2 is not working making meaningful income to address her loan.


I don't see it as ignoring, just as another interlocking component of their avoidant dysfunction...another elephant in the room that escaped mention until very late in the exposition. The loan is just as big a deal.

Walking and hiking cost little if you can do without specialized clothing & gear. Protein/fat centered LCHF diet doesn't have to be filet mignon and can easily be cheaper than binging on high-margin convenience foods. If cycling is the only exercise that appeals & you can't find a good used one on CL, that $700 bike is cheaper than the medical & incidental expenses of being fat & diabetic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

Awesome. So they need a plan to change job for Z and a job for Z2. 

You can't fix bad decisions with more bad decisions. 

From what has been posted here she has no interest in a real paying job because of PTO and such. 

The problem will not solve itself. And it's mostly her problem. If she wants to be in a team, ie MARRIED, then act like it.


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## lifeistooshort

Their situation is unsustainable. It's not fair to demand she work full time while Z is leaving her to be a single parent all week.

True the volunteering is out of control but with it comes a certain amount of flexibility that she wouldn't get from a job. It's an apples to oranges comparison. All of the kid responsibilities will still be on her. How exactly is that fair?

I fail to see how this is all her fault and the solution is for her to work full time, pay her own loans (and likely the daycare), juggle the kids (including his 1 year old) and then be waiting to put out when he finally shows up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

It is not realistic at all.


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## john117

lifeistooshort said:


> Their situation is unsustainable. It's not fair to demand she work full time while Z is leaving her to be a single parent all week.
> 
> True the volunteering is out of control but with it comes a certain amount of flexibility that she wouldn't get from a job. It's an apples to oranges comparison. All of the kid responsibilities will still be on her. How exactly is that fair?
> 
> I fail to see how this is all her fault and the solution is for her to work full time, pay her own loans (and likely the daycare), juggle the kids (including his 1 year old) and then be waiting to put out when he finally shows up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If Z divorces her she will have do do just that and get no help from Z with daycare and other expenses. 

There's fair and there's practical. Z is bankrolling a lifestyle for her as it is. How's that fair to him?


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## Marduk

jld said:


> Why not?
> 
> Yes, I am for complete marital transparency. Transparency means nothing hidden. She could learn a lot by reading this thread.


This includes the lies you tell yourself are true, JLD.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> If Z divorces her she will have do do just that and get no help from Z with daycare and other expenses.
> 
> There's fair and there's practical. Z is bankrolling a lifestyle for her as it is. How's that fair to him?


They will both be paying daycare. He will be paying alimony and child support, too.

Z gets to see his kids every day he is home. He does not have to arrange for childcare, either. 

He has a job he likes that pays better than a local one. That will have to go if he divorces.

I think life is right on that with his financial and familial commitments he will not be attractive to a single woman.


----------



## Marduk

lifeistooshort said:


> Their situation is unsustainable. It's not fair to demand she work full time while Z is leaving her to be a single parent all week.
> 
> True the volunteering is out of control but with it comes a certain amount of flexibility that she wouldn't get from a job. It's an apples to oranges comparison. All of the kid responsibilities will still be on her. How exactly is that fair?
> 
> I fail to see how this is all her fault and the solution is for her to work full time, pay her own loans (and likely the daycare), juggle the kids (including his 1 year old) and then be waiting to put out when he finally shows up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



It's quite simple.

She is living a delusional life. She racked up massive student loans without a care in the world as to how -- or who -- would pay for them.

Then, when married, she volunteers to make herself feel good while ignoring the burden it puts on their family financially.

If she stopped volunteering and started working the same number of hours, the student loans would be taken care of or at least mitigated, and the problem would be solved.

But that's not what's happening.

Because she is living in unicorns and rainbows land, and the bank is going to come calling sooner or later.

If the student loans are pre-marriage, I'd be discussing with her about how after a divorce they'd be all her problem, or while married they'd be half her problem. And she gets to pick which one she wants.

Because while harsh, that's reality.


----------



## lifeistooshort

john117 said:


> If Z divorces her she will have do do just that and get no help from Z with daycare and other expenses.
> 
> There's fair and there's practical. Z is bankrolling a lifestyle for her as it is. How's that fair to him?


This requires a team effort. If Z divorces her he'll pay alimony and child support, and have to pay to rent another place. He claims to be broke now. What kind of gf do you suppose will go for him? He'll still be gone all the time and he'll still be obese, and he'll be broke.

And he absolutely will support her child care expenses. When I divorced my ex his CS was based in part on my day care bills.

His wife will get a job and find another guy. 

And what lifestyle is he bankrolling? She's not exactly at the spa all day. She's dealing with kids, two of which are his.

So are you saying that the fair resolution is for her to get a job and still manage the kids and household all week while he comes home on weekends to get some?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

marduk said:


> It's quite simple.
> 
> She is living a delusional life. She racked up massive student loans without a care in the world as to how -- or who -- would pay for them.
> 
> Then, when married, she volunteers to make herself feel good while ignoring the burden it puts on their family financially.
> 
> If she stopped volunteering and started working the same number of hours, the student loans would be taken care of or at least mitigated, and the problem would be solved.
> 
> But that's not what's happening.
> 
> Because she is living in unicorns and rainbows land, and the bank is going to come calling sooner or later.
> 
> If the student loans are pre-marriage, I'd be discussing with her about how after a divorce they'd be all her problem, or while married they'd be half her problem. And she gets to pick which one she wants.
> 
> Because while harsh, that's reality.


You're missing the point. First of all, the loans are all her problem now. He's already said he gets nothing out of it so it's not his problem. 

Second, while I agree she needs to work it's not practical to expect she'll just get a job with the same number of hours and all will be peachy. Daycare will be involved and there will be no flexibility to deal with the kids. 

If the one year old gets sick wth is Z going to do about it? Nothing, he's gone all week. It's easy to skip out on volunteering, not so easy to skip out on work. 

And if you want to talk about who's delusional, let's talk about the guy who works away from home all week and contributes basically nothing beyond bills, yet still gets to enjoy a family and complains he's just a paycheck and his wife won't put out.

He gets to spend his week with little to worry about. You might argue that a travelling job has its own challenges but he likes it. Apparently being away from his family all week is fine with him. 

Would you live like that? 

But he tries to do what he can when he's around? What do you suppose that's actually worth when kids need stuff all the time every day? 

Harsh reality as you say. 

This is going to require changes from both of them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

Great post, life.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Thanks jld 

I don't understand why so many are hostile to the advice of jld and dug. They're successfully pulling off the travelling job and still have a sex life, so clearly they know something.

And as dug had said, jld and the kids look forward to his return. 

Geez, whenever they comment on infidelity the stock response is that they don't understand. 

But they live this life

Maybe they know a little something about how it works.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

jld said:


> They will both be paying daycare. He will be paying alimony and child support, too.
> 
> Z gets to see his kids every day he is home. He does not have to arrange for childcare, either.
> 
> He has a job he likes that pays better than a local one. That will have to go if he divorces.
> 
> I think life is right on that with his financial and familial commitments he will not be attractive to a single woman.


Sometimes a Pyrrhic victory is worthwhile. In this case especially.


----------



## john117

lifeistooshort said:


> This requires a team effort. If Z divorces her he'll pay alimony and child support, and have to pay to rent another place. He claims to be broke now. What kind of gf do you suppose will go for him? He'll still be gone all the time and he'll still be obese, and he'll be broke.
> 
> And he absolutely will support her child care expenses. When I divorced my ex his CS was based in part on my day care bills.
> 
> His wife will get a job and find another guy.
> 
> And what lifestyle is he bankrolling? She's not exactly at the spa all day. She's dealing with kids, two of which are his.
> 
> So are you saying that the fair resolution is for her to get a job and still manage the kids and household all week while he comes home on weekends to get some?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You need to understand that in a divorce he's not winning here. She's not winning either. So any victory scored here is a Pyrrhic one. Ie mutual assured destruction.

From the IDGAF view he's ahead. The divorce outcome is "still broke, still traveling, and still kids once a week". She's screwed tho. The court will not take lightly the fact that she's lounging at the PTO coffees and such while the loans loom. Sell the house and split assets I could see him coming out marginally ahead. But she's screwed and screwed badly.

If she's not seeing this then Marduk is right, she's the mayor of Unicorn City.


----------



## john117

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



jld said:


> Great post, life.


So, how do single moms or dads manage?


----------



## Marduk

lifeistooshort said:


> You're missing the point. First of all, the loans are all her problem now. He's already said he gets nothing out of it so it's not his problem.
> 
> Second, while I agree she needs to work it's not practical to expect she'll just get a job with the same number of hours and all will be peachy. Daycare will be involved and there will be no flexibility to deal with the kids.
> 
> If the one year old gets sick wth is Z going to do about it? Nothing, he's gone all week. It's easy to skip out on volunteering, not so easy to skip out on work.
> 
> And if you want to talk about who's delusional, let's talk about the guy who works away from home all week and contributes basically nothing beyond bills, yet still gets to enjoy a family and complains he's just a paycheck and his wife won't put out.
> 
> He gets to spend his week with little to worry about. You might argue that a travelling job has its own challenges but he likes it. Apparently being away from his family all week is fine with him.
> 
> Would you live like that?
> 
> But he tries to do what he can when he's around? What do you suppose that's actually worth when kids need stuff all the time every day?
> 
> Harsh reality as you say.
> 
> This is going to require changes from both of them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Changes for both of them, sure. He needs to stop being passive aggressive. 

However, I do wonder who picks up the slack when there are issues. It sounds like she treats volunteering as a career. 

And, most parents both work and juggle the kids schedule. They make it work. I wonder why you're assuming it's difficult for them, and jumping to the conclusion that he won't support it?

There are many part time jobs. Or the ability sometimes to convert volunteering to paid work. Or just do her damn job that she is educated to do. 

She clearly expects a free ride and consequence free life. He clearly struggles with conflict resolution and resentment. 

These things go hand in hand - because it suits one of them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

john117 said:


> You need to understand that in a divorce he's not winning here. She's not winning either. So any victory scored here is a Pyrrhic one. Ie mutual assured destruction.
> 
> From the IDGAF view he's ahead. The divorce outcome is "still broke, still traveling, and still kids once a week". She's screwed tho. The court will not take lightly the fact that she's lounging at the PTO coffees and such while the loans loom. Sell the house and split assets I could see him coming out marginally ahead. But she's screwed and screwed badly.
> 
> If she's not seeing this then Marduk is right, she's the mayor of Unicorn City.


She will just look for another walking ATM. With a sob story to boot, this time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

lifeistooshort said:


> Thanks jld
> 
> I don't understand why so many are hostile to the advice of jld and dug. They're successfully pulling off the travelling job and still have a sex life, so clearly they know something.
> 
> And as dug had said, jld and the kids look forward to his return.
> 
> Geez, whenever they comment on infidelity the stock response is that they don't understand.
> 
> But they live this life
> 
> Maybe they know a little something about how it works.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Life,

The real question is - can they align their goals?

If they can, then this becomes a conversation about how to accomplish those goals. 

While Zdog has his challenges - and they are big ones - he married someone who in a lot of ways, has remained a child. 

For the moment - forget her loans and consider this. She had bypass surgery 6 years ago. 

When you get that surgery - they pair it with all kinds of psych and educational support. 

And they tell you repeatedly that - if you insist on retaining your old eating habits - you will stretch out your stomach again - and eventually end up right where you started. 

Reason I'm not optimistic - seems that when Z2 gains the high ground - whether by academic degree or surgery, she quickly squanders it by walking the path of least resistance - downward.

And Z - well it's a lot harder to help someone - gets 80 plus pages into his own thread - without mentioning major stuff like this.

Ego protective behavior - makes real problem solving harder. 




lifeistooshort said:


> You're missing the point. First of all, the loans are all her problem now. He's already said he gets nothing out of it so it's not his problem.
> 
> Second, while I agree she needs to work it's not practical to expect she'll just get a job with the same number of hours and all will be peachy. Daycare will be involved and there will be no flexibility to deal with the kids.
> 
> If the one year old gets sick wth is Z going to do about it? Nothing, he's gone all week. It's easy to skip out on volunteering, not so easy to skip out on work.
> 
> And if you want to talk about who's delusional, let's talk about the guy who works away from home all week and contributes basically nothing beyond bills, yet still gets to enjoy a family and complains he's just a paycheck and his wife won't put out.
> 
> He gets to spend his week with little to worry about. You might argue that a travelling job has its own challenges but he likes it. Apparently being away from his family all week is fine with him.
> 
> Would you live like that?
> 
> But he tries to do what he can when he's around? What do you suppose that's actually worth when kids need stuff all the time every day?
> 
> Harsh reality as you say.
> 
> This is going to require changes from both of them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> Life,
> 
> The real question is - can they align their goals?
> 
> If they can, then this becomes a conversation about how to accomplish those goals.
> 
> While Zdog has his challenges - and they are big ones - he married someone who in a lot of ways, has remained a child.
> 
> For the moment - forget her loans and consider this. She had bypass surgery 6 years ago.
> 
> When you get that surgery - they pair it with all kinds of psych and educational support.
> 
> And they tell you repeatedly that - if you insist on retaining your old eating habits - you will stretch out your stomach again - and eventually end up right where you started.
> 
> Reason I'm not optimistic - seems that when Z2 gains the high ground - whether by academic degree or surgery, she quickly squanders it by walking the path of least resistance - downward.
> 
> And Z - well it's a lot harder to help someone - gets 80 plus pages into his own thread - without mentioning major stuff like this.
> 
> Ego protective behavior - makes real problem solving harder.


People habitually take one of two paths. 

Path one is easy today but really hard 1-5 years from now.

Path two is hard today but better 1-5 years from now.

Someone who continually picks path one cannot be with someone who continually picks path two.

That's all. There are resilient people, and there are weak people. The two don't mix well.


----------



## lifeistooshort

MEM11363 said:


> Life,
> 
> The real question is - can they align their goals?
> 
> If they can, then this becomes a conversation about how to accomplish those goals.
> 
> While Zdog has his challenges - and they are big ones - he married someone who in a lot of ways, has remained a child.
> 
> For the moment - forget her loans and consider this. She had bypass surgery 6 years ago.
> 
> When you get that surgery - they pair it with all kinds of psych and educational support.
> 
> And they tell you repeatedly that - if you insist on retaining your old eating habits - you will stretch out your stomach again - and eventually end up right where you started.
> 
> Reason I'm not optimistic - seems that when Z2 gains the high ground - whether by academic degree or surgery, she quickly squanders it by walking the path of least resistance - downward.
> 
> And Z - well it's a lot harder to help someone - gets 80 plus pages into his own thread - without mentioning major stuff like this.
> 
> Ego protective behavior - makes real problem solving harder.




Yes, I know a few people who have had bypass and for the most part they struggle with poor habits after. It's very hard. ... if they were capable of change they might not have needed bypass.

And that begs the question of who paid for the surgery? Did insurance cover it? 

I agree that they both have issues and their dynamic is toxic, I just think Z actually stands to lose a lot more in a divorce. Maybe that will turn out to be the best course, but I think it's a real disservice to him to recommend he "destabilize" the marriage because I think it will blow up in his face.

I hate that term, it smacks of manipulation, but I can understand the downside of being too comfortable. 


I stand by my assertion that I don't think their issues can be fixed with him being gone all the time. Jld and dug do it, but it's not working for this couple. Any chance he has to address this so come when he's around and a regular part of the family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

lifeistooshort said:


> Yes, I know a few people who have had bypass and for the most part they struggle with poor habits after. It's very hard. ... if they were capable of change they might not have needed bypass.


Those that like life or take their responsibilities seriously make the changes.

Those that don't, don't.


----------



## lifeistooshort

marduk said:


> People habitually take one of two paths.
> 
> Path one is easy today but really hard 1-5 years from now.
> 
> Path two is hard today but better 1-5 years from now.
> 
> Someone who continually picks path one cannot be with someone who continually picks path two.
> 
> That's all. There are resilient people, and there are weak people. The two don't mix well.


I think there are two weak people here, which is even worse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

lifeistooshort said:


> I think there are two weak people here, which is even worse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And one is seeking help.

And the other one is seeking a free ride.

You have to know that this guy is being emotionally manipulated by his wife into accepting an unacceptable situation, right?

What some here might consider a good lifestyle choice.


----------



## lifeistooshort

john117 said:


> You need to understand that in a divorce he's not winning here. She's not winning either. So any victory scored here is a Pyrrhic one. Ie mutual assured destruction.
> 
> From the IDGAF view he's ahead. The divorce outcome is "still broke, still traveling, and still kids once a week". She's screwed tho. The court will not take lightly the fact that she's lounging at the PTO coffees and such while the loans loom. Sell the house and split assets I could see him coming out marginally ahead. But she's screwed and screwed badly.
> 
> If she's not seeing this then Marduk is right, she's the mayor of Unicorn City.



I understand your argument, and yes they will both suffer.

But I'm not sure it will be as hard on her as you think. 

If she was childless, sitting in her rear and volunteering for free a judge might look down on that, but she's raising kids. That is considered to be a full time job, so a judge may not care that she volunteers on top of that. 

And a judge may well let her keep the house while the kids are minors. When I divorced the agreement was that I kept the house until the youngest was 18, at which time I had to sell or buy him out.

I would not assume she'll be forced to sell. A judge will look at that as destabilizing the kids, and their stability will be most important issue. Z is severely disadvantaged because he's gone all the time. ... she is the primary parent. 

I don't think she'll be as screwed as you think. I think many see this as her fault and want to see her screwed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

marduk said:


> And one is seeking help.
> 
> And the other one is seeking a free ride.
> 
> You have to know that this guy is being emotionally manipulated by his wife into accepting an unacceptable situation, right?
> 
> What some here might consider a good lifestyle choice.


You are making that assumption, you do not know what her viewpoint is. You know his side. 

And it seems that all of this so called help is aimed at him being a poor victim and her being a lazy mooch. 

And at manipulating her into putting out with little effort from him. 

Which I don't think is fair. 

He wouldn't even be here if she tolerated sex with him. .... that's why he came here. Not to address the marriage or the loans. The title is wife is touched out.

I think the lack of sex is biasing a lot of people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Life,
I have seen a dynamic sort of like this one before. It made sense but it was very toxic. It's the opposite of helping your partner be the best version of themselves. 

Instead the basic flavor of it is - to create a 'ball and chain' context. One where it would be really hard for your partner to leave you.

This is a type of MAD - mutually assured dependence

Whether an extra 100 pounds or a 100k in debt, these things make it much harder to leave a marriage. 

So instead of helping your partner - be their best - you quietly enable them to be their worst. 








lifeistooshort said:


> I understand your argument, and yes they will both suffer.
> 
> But I'm not sure it will be as hard on her as you think.
> 
> If she was childless, sitting in her rear and volunteering for free a judge might look down on that, but she's raising kids. That is considered to be a full time job, so a judge may not care that she volunteers on top of that.
> 
> And a judge may well let her keep the house while the kids are minors. When I divorced the agreement was that I kept the house until the youngest was 18, at which time I had to sell or buy him out.
> 
> I would not assume she'll be forced to sell. A judge will look at that as destabilizing the kids, and their stability will be most important issue. Z is severely disadvantaged because he's gone all the time. ... she is the primary parent.
> 
> I don't think she'll be as screwed as you think. I think many see this as her fault and want to see her screwed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Marduk,

Zdog needs to focus on himself for the next year. 
- Setting a healthy example for the children
- Being a strong positive presence - helping and managing them - not yelling at them
- Getting into parenting alignment with Z2

That kitchen exchange he described - that stuff is common for him. My guess is that it's part of the reason Z2 doesn't like spending time with him. 

And then there is the insincere talk of divorce. A pure bully's move. 

He's not divorcing her because he's not well suited to re enter the 'dating pool'. 

He has a LOT of work to do before being in a position to start getting the results he wants. 





marduk said:


> Changes for both of them, sure. He needs to stop being passive aggressive.
> 
> However, I do wonder who picks up the slack when there are issues. It sounds like she treats volunteering as a career.
> 
> And, most parents both work and juggle the kids schedule. They make it work. I wonder why you're assuming it's difficult for them, and jumping to the conclusion that he won't support it?
> 
> There are many part time jobs. Or the ability sometimes to convert volunteering to paid work. Or just do her damn job that she is educated to do.
> 
> She clearly expects a free ride and consequence free life. He clearly struggles with conflict resolution and resentment.
> 
> These things go hand in hand - because it suits one of them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> 
> Zdog needs to focus on himself for the next year.
> - Setting a healthy example for the children
> - Being a strong positive presence - helping and managing them - not yelling at them
> - Getting into parenting alignment with Z2
> 
> That kitchen exchange he described - that stuff is common for him. My guess is that it's part of the reason Z2 doesn't like spending time with him.
> 
> And then there is the insincere talk of divorce. A pure bully's move.
> 
> He's not divorcing her because he's not well suited to re enter the 'dating pool'.
> 
> He has a LOT of work to do before being in a position to start getting the results he wants.


All will benefit Z2.

Who will likely use it to extort more support from Z with less effort in life on her part.

She will likely see it as a more luxurious gravy train than the gravy train is leaving the station.

Boundaries.


----------



## lifeistooshort

marduk said:


> Changes for both of them, sure. He needs to stop being passive aggressive.
> 
> However, I do wonder who picks up the slack when there are issues. It sounds like she treats volunteering as a career.
> 
> And, most parents both work and juggle the kids schedule. They make it work. I wonder why you're assuming it's difficult for them, and jumping to the conclusion that he won't support it?
> 
> There are many part time jobs. Or the ability sometimes to convert volunteering to paid work. Or just do her damn job that she is educated to do.
> 
> She clearly expects a free ride and consequence free life. He clearly struggles with conflict resolution and resentment.
> 
> These things go hand in hand - because it suits one of them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




How exactly would he pick up any slack? He's hardly ever there. 

And most working couples share kid responsibilities to some degree, that's how they make it work. 

I keep trying to point out that a job doesn't have much flexibility. ... if the baby gets sick what is Z going to do about it? 

Nothing, he's not there. 

But that doesn't seem to get through to anyone. Please explain to me why it would be fair for her to get a job but still shoulder all of the kid responsibilities and put out for him when he shows up after his week of worrying about very little. 

This argument that she wants a free ride and won't contribute is based on next to nothing beyond projection until he's around to share on the kid duties. 

When he's home snd shares in making dinner/cleaning up/picking up kids/etc then one might argue she's not contributing fairly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

lifeistooshort said:


> How exactly would he pick up any slack? He's hardly ever there.
> 
> And most working couples share kid responsibilities to some degree, that's how they make it work.
> 
> I keep trying to point out that a job doesn't have much flexibility. ... if the baby gets sick what is Z going to do about it?
> 
> Nothing, he's not there.
> 
> But that doesn't seem to get through to anyone. Please explain to me why it would be fair for her to get a job but still shoulder all of the kid responsibilities and put out for him when he shows up after his week of worrying about very little.
> 
> This argument that she wants a free ride and won't contribute is based on next to nothing beyond projection until he's around to share on the kid duties.
> 
> When he's home snd shares in making dinner/cleaning up/picking up kids/etc then one might argue she's not contributing fairly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I had to learn the hard way that marriage, like life, isn't fair. 

In fact, jld helped teach me that. 

You can keep score, or you can be reasonable. 

What you can't do is keep score and claim to be reasonable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cynthia

Zdog, It would be much easier to lose the weight than you think.
Start my drinking 80 oz. of water per day. If you are drinking soda or other drinks with sugar in them, stop immediately. Limit alcohol as well.
Never eat grain or dairy for breakfast. Eat protein and vegetables, not fruit.
For lunch, skip the sandwich and have a salad with some sort of protein and no grain.
For dinner eat lean meat and vegetables.
Eat until you are satisfied, but not until you are full. Do not stop eating before you are satisfied. Do not skip meals.
In the morning, don't eat until you are hungry. Always wait until you feel hungry before you eat anything.
If you do this, eventually you won't need to snack either.


----------



## MEM2020

Marduk,

Marital improvement begins with one person. 

In a situation like this, you have choices. Focus on strength or focus on power. Strength is solely about yourself. 

Power is about your ability to get someone else to do what you 'want'.


So let's return for a moment to the kitchen. And let's recap where 'power' comes from: 

1. Positional authority (this is - IMHO - the LEAST valid source of authority/power)
2. Charisma 
3. Subject matter expertise
4. Preparedness / strategy
5. Respect / positive relationship / trust

So here we are back in the kitchen. A perfectly normal - patterned event occurs. A child with a weight problem - comes back for seconds.

So - I'm going to pick on Life for a moment. Because IMO - she has demonstrated the highest level of subject matter expertise on this topic. 

1. The request doesn't surprise her. She's prepared. 
2. Her first move isn't to work the menu, it is instead to work the clock. So maybe she says: hey can you spend ten minutes with me .... doing whatever ....
3. After the ten minutes IF the child remains hungry - now she works the menu selection - by suggesting something healthier
4. The suggestion - is friendly and might even refer back to an educational discussion - reminding the child that the family was going to work together to make healthier food / exercise choices

There is no positional authority needed. No shaming. No hypocrisy. 

Because she has a collection of strengths - which when used in concert - make her gently, firmly irresistible. 

Her power comes from - strength. Not position. And not from playing games of chicken. 






marduk said:


> All will benefit Z2.
> 
> Who will likely use it to extort more support from Z with less effort in life on her part.
> 
> She will likely see it as a more luxurious gravy train than the gravy train is leaving the station.
> 
> Boundaries.


----------



## john117

If someone has two college degrees and is sitting idle most courts will not look at it too positively, esp. when she's mega-volunteering. 

There are lots of issues in the marriage, the lack of sex is the easiest to see. And as typical with such things, the lack of sex makes it much harder to fix other, more crucial issues.

With frequent sex one at least gets a reasonable amount of reassurance that their partner is still available mentally and is not on autopilot. It's not the lack of sex that is the issue but the lack of the partner overall.


----------



## lifeistooshort

marduk said:


> I had to learn the hard way that marriage, like life, isn't fair.
> 
> In fact, jld helped teach me that.
> 
> You can keep score, or you can be reasonable.
> 
> What you can't do is keep score and claim to be reasonable.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's convenient for the one getting the easier end of the deal. 

Does this mean we can tell guys who work all day and come to to all of the chores that their stay at home mom should've done that life isn't fair and they can't keep score? 

For sure keeping score is a bad idea but things have to be somewhat equitable. 

And since when is raising kids expecting a free ride?


Is that how you view stay at home parents?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Zdog... you are awfully quiet today.

How are things?


----------



## lifeistooshort

marduk said:


> Lol.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll assume you had no actual answer for that so you resorted to sarcasm :laugh:


----------



## lifeistooshort

MEM11363 said:


> Life,
> I have seen a dynamic sort of like this one before. It made sense but it was very toxic. It's the opposite of helping your partner be the best version of themselves.
> 
> Instead the basic flavor of it is - to create a 'ball and chain' context. One where it would be really hard for your partner to leave you.
> 
> This is a type of MAD - mutually assured dependence
> 
> Whether an extra 100 pounds or a 100k in debt, these things make it much harder to leave a marriage.
> 
> So instead of helping your partner - be their best - you quietly enable them to be their worst.


One of the reasons I knew I wanted to be married to my husband is because I felt like for the most part I was the best version of myself when I was with him.

There is no substitute for a partner that could drop you any time they wanted and still really wants to be with you.


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> 
> Marital improvement begins with one person.
> 
> In a situation like this, you have choices. Focus on strength or focus on power. Strength is solely about yourself.
> 
> Power is about your ability to get someone else to do what you 'want'.
> 
> 
> So let's return for a moment to the kitchen. And let's recap where 'power' comes from:
> 
> 1. Positional authority (this is - IMHO - the LEAST valid source of authority/power)
> 2. Charisma
> 3. Subject matter expertise
> 4. Preparedness / strategy
> 5. Respect / positive relationship / trust
> 
> So here we are back in the kitchen. A perfectly normal - patterned event occurs. A child with a weight problem - comes back for seconds.
> 
> So - I'm going to pick on Life for a moment. Because IMO - she has demonstrated the highest level of subject matter expertise on this topic.
> 
> 1. The request doesn't surprise her. She's prepared.
> 2. Her first move isn't to work the menu, it is instead to work the clock. So maybe she says: hey can you spend ten minutes with me .... doing whatever ....
> 3. After the ten minutes IF the child remains hungry - now she works the menu selection - by suggesting something healthier
> 4. The suggestion - is friendly and might even refer back to an educational discussion - reminding the child that the family was going to work together to make healthier food / exercise choices
> 
> There is no positional authority needed. No shaming. No hypocrisy.
> 
> Because she has a collection of strengths - which when used in concert - make her gently, firmly irresistible.
> 
> Her power comes from - strength. Not position. And not from playing games of chicken.


All fine and good. 

What I'm advocating is adding some Aikido into the mix.

Returning to the OP. If he improves himself, gets in better shape, helps out with the kids more, stops being passive aggressive...

Z2 gets a better husband, and the offspring get a better parent. All good, right?

Perhaps not. Because Z2's response to such a scenario could well be... To pull back further.

Because Z is getting stronger, well he can shoulder the burden of debt.

Because Z is helping with the kids more, then I can volunteer more.

Etc.

What I'm suggesting is that all that is done with an edge. An edge of "I'm getting stronger and clearer about what I want" not "I'm getting better at picking up the slack for you".


----------



## Marduk

lifeistooshort said:


> I'll assume you had no actual answer for that so you resorted to sarcasm :laugh:


There's many things I wanted to say, but shouldn't. 

So I left it at that.

But things are not always what they seem.


----------



## lifeistooshort

MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> 
> Marital improvement begins with one person.
> 
> In a situation like this, you have choices. Focus on strength or focus on power. Strength is solely about yourself.
> 
> Power is about your ability to get someone else to do what you 'want'.
> 
> 
> So let's return for a moment to the kitchen. And let's recap where 'power' comes from:
> 
> 1. Positional authority (this is - IMHO - the LEAST valid source of authority/power)
> 2. Charisma
> 3. Subject matter expertise
> 4. Preparedness / strategy
> 5. Respect / positive relationship / trust
> 
> So here we are back in the kitchen. A perfectly normal - patterned event occurs. A child with a weight problem - comes back for seconds.
> 
> So - I'm going to pick on Life for a moment. Because IMO - she has demonstrated the highest level of subject matter expertise on this topic.
> 
> 1. The request doesn't surprise her. She's prepared.
> 2. Her first move isn't to work the menu, it is instead to work the clock. So maybe she says: hey can you spend ten minutes with me .... doing whatever ....
> 3. After the ten minutes IF the child remains hungry - now she works the menu selection - by suggesting something healthier
> 4. The suggestion - is friendly and might even refer back to an educational discussion - reminding the child that the family was going to work together to make healthier food / exercise choices
> 
> There is no positional authority needed. No shaming. No hypocrisy.
> 
> Because she has a collection of strengths - which when used in concert - make her gently, firmly irresistible.
> 
> Her power comes from - strength. Not position. And not from playing games of chicken.



Ha ha, when you said you were going to pick on me I expected something much more harsh.....TAM can do that to you.

But I appreciate the support, and I would add that I think the no hypocrisy is key.....along with a full understanding of why this is good for them and what's ultimately in it for them. My kids see me running in the heat, they see me eating salad with no dressing, they see me eating a small amount until I'm full. BUT, I also have their buy in because they know they're going to look good and enjoy good health into adulthood.

Some people think you can't get teenage buy in for this but that's not true.....you certainly can.

I tell them they should always eat until they're full but sometimes the brain just needs a little while to realize it's full, and you can eat as much as you want but that does not mean as much garbage as you want.

Just yesterday I picked up a little bag of circus peanuts for my younger son and after he'd had a few I told him to put it away because he needed to eat dinner. Then he negotiated the rest with me.....he said "well if I eat the rest I don't get any other dessert right?". Yep, that's enough. "Ok, well if I only eat a couple more can I have a little piece of pie? I said ok, but it will be a little smaller because you had circus peanuts. He said "ok, that's fine".

I actually shared some of this thread.....the part about the teenage boy's weight issues and the bad habits coming from the parents.....with my 15 year old son. Do you know what his response was?

Quote: "If you teach your kid to be a sh!t don't get upset when they're a sh!t".

I had to chuckle at that.

Take that in the spirit in which it was intended by a 15 year old boy.


----------



## lifeistooshort

marduk said:


> There's many things I wanted to say, but shouldn't.
> 
> So I left it at that.
> 
> But things are not always what they seem.


Cmon now, nastiness is uncalled for. This is an open discussion.


----------



## Marduk

lifeistooshort said:


> That's convenient for the one getting the easier end of the deal.


And that's the point. If you're continually getting the raw end of the deal, appealing to someone on behalf of fairness will often fall on deaf ears, or have a half-hearted non-answer.

The only way forward is to change the deal.



> Does this mean we can tell guys who work all day and come to to all of the chores that their stay at home mom should've done that life isn't fair and they can't keep score?


If everybody's giving their all, it's all good. What gets done is what gets done.

This could be one spouse is giving 100% at their career and 0% at home and it's what everybody wants, all fine and good.

Or if someone puts in overtime to fill in the slack when something happens, that's all fine and good.

But what's not fine and good is to ask someone to chronically give 120% while you give 50%. Or less.

And guess what? If she's giving 50% to volunteering, that doesn't count for sweet **** all in a marriage. Because while it may contribute to society or feel-good-ness, it's essentially entertainment to a marriage because it contributes nothing.

If you have slack, then volunteer.

If you don't, then too bad.



> For sure keeping score is a bad idea but things have to be somewhat equitable.
> 
> And since when is raising kids expecting a free ride?


When you walked into having kids with a giant student debt and instead of helping pay them off, you volunteer for free instead.

Or, like my wife did, decide to become one of the top athletes in our province. Because it made her feel good, and left a massive energy gap everywhere else.




> Is that how you view stay at home parents?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol, no. I supported my wife being a SAHM for as long as she wanted to. As long as she contributed as much energy to the relationship as I did. When that went down, and I was expected to contribute even more to offset the energetic debt, we had a problem.

If she was doing kid stuff all day and I came home and cooked and cleaned after work, no problem. Happy to do it.

When she was off training all day and I had to run around and grab the kids, taking off work early, and then cook and clean after that while logging in and getting my work done when the kids were asleep... Big problem.

And when she did it driving us into debt while buying bikes, workout clothes, memberships, racing trips, etc... Massive problem.


----------



## lifeistooshort

marduk said:


> All fine and good.
> 
> What I'm advocating is adding some Aikido into the mix.
> 
> Returning to the OP. If he improves himself, gets in better shape, helps out with the kids more, stops being passive aggressive...
> 
> Z2 gets a better husband, and the offspring get a better parent. All good, right?
> 
> Perhaps not. Because Z2's response to such a scenario could well be... To pull back further.
> 
> Because Z is getting stronger, well he can shoulder the burden of debt.
> 
> Because Z is helping with the kids more, then I can volunteer more.
> 
> Etc.
> 
> What I'm suggesting is that all that is done with an edge. An edge of "I'm getting stronger and clearer about what I want" not "I'm getting better at picking up the slack for you".


Her response to that matters not because regardless it benefits him to improve. If he does and she responds, great. If he does and she doesn't respond, he'll know he did everything he could and he'll be in a better position to find another partner eventually.

Because his job situation and financial responsibilities are really going to work against him, so anything he can do to better himself is very good for him.


----------



## lifeistooshort

marduk said:


> And that's the point. If you're continually getting the raw end of the deal, appealing to someone on behalf of fairness will often fall on deaf ears, or have a half-hearted non-answer.
> 
> The only way forward is to change the deal.
> 
> 
> 
> If everybody's giving their all, it's all good. What gets done is what gets done.
> 
> This could be one spouse is giving 100% at their career and 0% at home and it's what everybody wants, all fine and good.
> 
> Or if someone puts in overtime to fill in the slack when something happens, that's all fine and good.
> 
> But what's not fine and good is to ask someone to chronically give 120% while you give 50%. Or less.
> 
> And guess what? If she's giving 50% to volunteering, that doesn't count for sweet **** all in a marriage. Because while it may contribute to society or feel-good-ness, it's essentially entertainment to a marriage because it contributes nothing.
> 
> If you have slack, then volunteer.
> 
> If you don't, then too bad.
> 
> 
> 
> When you walked into having kids with a giant student debt and instead of helping pay them off, you volunteer for free instead.
> 
> Or, like my wife did, decide to become one of the top athletes in our province. Because it made her feel good, and left a massive energy gap everywhere else.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lol, no. I supported my wife being a SAHM for as long as she wanted to. As long as she contributed as much energy to the relationship as I did. When that went down, and I was expected to contribute even more to offset the energetic debt, we had a problem.
> 
> If she was doing kid stuff all day and I came home and cooked and cleaned after work, no problem. Happy to do it.
> 
> I she was off training all day and I had to run around and grab the kids, taking off work early, and then cook and clean after that while logging in and getting my work done when the kids were asleep... Big problem.
> 
> And when she did it driving us into debt while buying bikes, workout clothes, memberships, racing trips, etc... Massive problem.



FYI I think she ought to be working. I have no idea why one gets a couple of degrees and doesn't work.....I have two degrees and clearly I do work. But I'm really not stay at home material for a lot of reasons, though I did do it in the very early years.

And I also think running up loans like that is off the hook ridiculous, but unfortunately that's a common problem. His wife is hardly the only one to fall for that, and for a degree that doesn't even pay that much no less. Every time I see a sob story on the liberal news about someone who ran up $100K in loans so they could study Spanish and the bible (I actually did see someone like that featured) I feel no sympathy at all and want to puke.

At least if you run up loans for a job that pays that's one thing. The out of control lending is a huge problem.

But Z went along with her quitting work with no backup plan for the loans she was paying on. And part of the reason for this was so he could continue in the travelling job that he likes and doesn't want to leave and thus can't really contribute much beyond bills.

And as I pointed out earlier, he wouldn't even be here if she was tolerating sex with him. So these loans obviously weren't that big of a deal to him....and why would they be? He views them as her issue.

So yes, I think she should be working. But I'm not sure that it's fair to ask that of her while she still has to shoulder 100% of the kid and home responsibilities while he travels for a job he doesn't want to give up.

His end of this may need to be that he starts working locally and picks up his part. It may not be practical for her to commit to a job with him gone all the time. There may not be a solution to this that involved Z keeping this job, and that may be a harsh reality.


----------



## Marduk

lifeistooshort said:


> Her response to that matters not because regardless it benefits him to improve. If he does and she responds, great. If he does and she doesn't respond, he'll know he did everything he could and he'll be in a better position to find another partner eventually.
> 
> Because his job situation and financial responsibilities are really going to work against him, so anything he can do to better himself is very good for him.


Let me give a less emotionally charged example.

When one of my senseis was overwhelmed teaching classes, I offered to help take on some more of the work so that he could spend more time with his son (he was divorced). So I did, taking a little more time away from my wife and kids, and helped him out, and ended up running this whole dojo.

Meanwhile, he took his newfound free time... And started another dojo.

And I realized that I ended up taking on a whole lot of work and stress doing what he wanted done, and taking away time from my kids doing it. Essentially screwing them over.

So I folded the dojo and sent everyone back to the main school and learned to never do that for that teacher again. Because when someone has a righteous agenda and large ego, as was the case with this teacher, relationships are secondary to the cause.


----------



## Marduk

lifeistooshort said:


> FYI I think she ought to be working. I have no idea why one gets a couple of degrees and doesn't work.....I have two degrees and clearly I do work. But I'm really not stay at home material for a lot of reasons, though I did do it in the very early years.
> 
> And I also think running up loans like that is off the hook ridiculous, but unfortunately that's a common problem. His wife is hardly the only one to fall for that, and for a degree that doesn't even pay that much no less. Every time I see a sob story on the liberal news about someone who ran up $100K in loans so they could study Spanish and the bible (I actually did see someone like that featured) I feel no sympathy at all and want to puke.
> 
> At least if you run up loans for a job that pays that's one thing. The out of control lending is a huge problem.
> 
> But Z went along with her quitting work with no backup plan for the loans she was paying on. And part of the reason for this was so he could continue in the travelling job that he likes and doesn't want to leave and thus can't really contribute much beyond bills.
> 
> And as I pointed out earlier, he wouldn't even be here if she was tolerating sex with him. So these loans obviously weren't that big of a deal to him....and why would they be? He views them as her issue.
> 
> So yes, I think she should be working. But I'm not sure that it's fair to ask that of her while she still has to shoulder 100% of the kid and home responsibilities while he travels for a job he doesn't want to give up.
> 
> His end of this may need to be that he starts working locally and picks up his part. It may not be practical for her to commit to a job with him gone all the time. There may not be a solution to this that involved Z keeping this job, and that may be a harsh reality.


We agree.


----------



## lifeistooshort

marduk said:


> Let me give a less emotionally charged example.
> 
> When one of my senseis was overwhelmed teaching classes, I offered to help take on some more of the work so that he could spend more time with his son (he was divorced). So I did, taking a little more time away from my wife and kids, and helped him out, and ended up running this whole dojo.
> 
> Meanwhile, he took his newfound free time... And started another dojo.
> 
> And I realized that I ended up taking on a whole lot of work and stress doing what he wanted done, and taking away time from my kids doing it. Essentially screwing them over.
> 
> So I folded the dojo and sent everyone back to the main school and learned to never do that for that teacher again. Because when someone has a righteous agenda and large ego, as was the case with this teacher, relationships are secondary to the cause.



Well that was a d!ck move on his part if there ever was one, and you did the right thing. But I think the comparison is a little shaky because the marital partner relationship is a little different, though I get where you're coming from.

So let's say Z gets another job and is now home to do his share and his wife's response it simply to volunteer more.

That's it, get rid of her. He doesn't have to support that.

But he won't know that until he tries and it's clear that their current situation isn't working. I think it's even fair of him to tell her "look wife, it's clear to me that you're overwhelmed and i'm not here to do my part. I am going to find a job where I can be home and pick up my part. But I really like this job and leaving it is a sacrifice for me, so in exchange I need X from you. How do you feel about that and what can we negotiate?"

Perfectly reasonable. If that doesn't work there's nothing he can do. But you know what? If he divorces her and wants any kind of custody that won't fly while he's gone all the time so he'd be setting himself up for a better position either way.

Unless kid time and custody isn't that important to him.


----------



## john117

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*

Great plan except:

- she will do X for a while then quit with no consequences OR

- she will do X and stick to it but resent him for making her work

- sex will not improve (I'm so TIRED)

- childcare will eat up her earnings or extra spending common with such cases will eat up savings unless careful...

You can't negotiate when you resent the other person...


----------



## MEM2020

Marduk,

Agreed. 

I've made my views on the volunteering perfectly clear. Including - providing an example of how I handled a similar situation. 

Thing is - Zdog - is in a MUCH weaker position than I was when I drew the bright line in the sand. 

If he really believed he'd be better off divorced - he'd have filed already. What he was counting on - was - her fear of divorce would be greater than his.

And while I get that volunteering has more schedule flexibility than a job - that's not the issue. The issue is she absolutely has no sense of responsibility for her debt. 

As for him working locally. Depends how much he can earn locally. 

Current income - local income = loss of income
Compared to her getting full time job - daycare or other work related costs

That absolutely ties back to a question which is - is she open to working a full time job.






marduk said:


> All fine and good.
> 
> What I'm advocating is adding some Aikido into the mix.
> 
> Returning to the OP. If he improves himself, gets in better shape, helps out with the kids more, stops being passive aggressive...
> 
> Z2 gets a better husband, and the offspring get a better parent. All good, right?
> 
> Perhaps not. Because Z2's response to such a scenario could well be... To pull back further.
> 
> Because Z is getting stronger, well he can shoulder the burden of debt.
> 
> Because Z is helping with the kids more, then I can volunteer more.
> 
> Etc.
> 
> What I'm suggesting is that all that is done with an edge. An edge of "I'm getting stronger and clearer about what I want" not "I'm getting better at picking up the slack for you".


----------



## jld

Found this, Zdog. It is about paying off student loan debt through volunteer work.

Student Loan Forgiveness Series: Volunteering - The Simple Dollar

SponsorChange in particular might be something to look into.


----------



## Laila8

The holier than thou tone Z's thread has taken on is really dismaying. Now he's being told he's not a catch for any woman, he's overweight so it's no wonder his wife doesn't want him, he doesn't do much besides earn a paycheck, and he's raising his kid to be a "sh1t"? Really?

As for the weight thing, first of all, she is obese too. Millions of overweight people find love, and guess what? Their spouses have sex with them and desire them.


----------



## lifeistooshort

MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> I've made my views on the volunteering perfectly clear. Including - providing an example of how I handled a similar situation.
> 
> Thing is - Zdog - is in a MUCH weaker position than I was when I drew the bright line in the sand.
> 
> If he really believed he'd be better off divorced - he'd have filed already. What he was counting on - was - her fear of divorce would be greater than his.
> 
> And while I get that volunteering has more schedule flexibility than a job - that's not the issue. The issue is she absolutely has no sense of responsibility for her debt.
> 
> As for him working locally. Depends how much he can earn locally.
> 
> Current income - local income = loss of income
> Compared to her getting full time job - daycare or other work related costs
> 
> That absolutely ties back to a question which is - is she open to working a full time job.


MEM, I think I've made clear that I think the volunteering is out of control.
I just feel that it won't be that easy for her to manage full time work and three kids, one of whom is one and yes someone will need to watch him. 

Yes single parents do it. I know because I was one for 5 years before I married hb. When I divorced my youngest was 2 and I'd been a stay at home. I built my professional life while dealing wth this, and my ex paid child support but did nothing else. These days he doesn't even pay CS. 

But you know what I didn't have to deal with? A hb I wasn't connected to that showed up on weekends looking for sex while I was working and running the house all week. My weekends belonged to me and my boys.


If you're single you make do. But they're married, and it's unfair to expect her to shoulder 80% of the burden, which she will if she starts working. That just breeds resentment. 

As for your financial assessment I would agree if it were merely financial concerns. But there is a deteriorating hb/wife relationship here in large part because they're not partners but instead adversaries. That must be considered too.


No marital relationship was ever rebuilt with money alone.

Having a date here and there will do very little precisely because he's not an integrated part of the family. I believe that needs to change.

You're right that his strategy is to hope she's more afraid of divorce than him and that gets her to put out. It's not going to work, at least not long term.

If he gets to a place of strength he can either see if she follows or move on. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> I've made my views on the volunteering perfectly clear. Including - providing an example of how I handled a similar situation.
> 
> Thing is - Zdog - is in a MUCH weaker position than I was when I drew the bright line in the sand.
> 
> If he really believed he'd be better off divorced - he'd have filed already. What he was counting on - was - her fear of divorce would be greater than his.
> 
> And while I get that volunteering has more schedule flexibility than a job - that's not the issue. The issue is she absolutely has no sense of responsibility for her debt.
> 
> As for him working locally. Depends how much he can earn locally.
> 
> Current income - local income = loss of income
> Compared to her getting full time job - daycare or other work related costs
> 
> That absolutely ties back to a question which is - is she open to working a full time job.


MEM, I think I've made clear that I think the volunteering is out of control.
I just feel that it won't be that easy for her to manage full time work and three kids, one of whom is one and yes someone will need to watch him. 

Yes single parents do it. I know because I was one for 5 years before I married hb. When I divorced my youngest was 2 and I'd been a stay at home. I built my professional life while dealing wth this, and my ex paid child support but did nothing else. These days he doesn't even pay CS. 

If you're single you make do. But they're married, and it's unfair to expect her to shoulder 80% of the burden, which she will if she starts working. 

As for your financial assessment I would agree, if it were merely financial concerns. But there is a deteriorating hb/wife relationship here in large part because they're not partners but instead adversaries. That must be considered too.


No marital relationship was ever rebuilt with money alone.

Having a date here and there will do very little precisely because he's not an integrated part of the family. I believe that needs to change. 

When my hb was looking for a job he interviewed for a couple of travelling jobs behind my back. I went through the roof when I found out because I know I can't have a relationship with my hb when he's gone all he time. I'm too fragile emotionally and I need the connection of having him come home and sleep next to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Life,
One of the reasons I'm so fond of you is the very last sentence of your post below. Most folks can't do the totally transparent thing. 

As far as the dollars go - the goal isn't to optimize - but rather to strategize and plan. 

And full time probably is too much at this point. 

I do feel compelled to make an observation regarding his travel vs him being home full time. 

He needs to fix the 'quality' issue before focusing on the quantity issue. 

He's too needy with her 
And
Not parenting all that well

Their lack of connection might be exacerbated by his travel - but the travel isn't the 'cause' of it. The cause is - they aren't good with each other. And he needs to fix that. Starting with the parenting.






lifeistooshort said:


> MEM, I think I've made clear that I think the volunteering is out of control.
> I just feel that it won't be that easy for her to manage full time work and three kids, one of whom is one and yes someone will need to watch him.
> 
> Yes single parents do it. I know because I was one for 5 years before I married hb. When I divorced my youngest was 2 and I'd been a stay at home. I built my professional life while dealing wth this, and my ex paid child support but did nothing else. These days he doesn't even pay CS.
> 
> If you're single you make do. But they're married, and it's unfair to expect her to shoulder 80% of the burden, which she will if she starts working.
> 
> As for your financial assessment I would agree, if it were merely financial concerns. But there is a deteriorating hb/wife relationship here in large part because they're not partners but instead adversaries. That must be considered too.
> 
> 
> No marital relationship was ever rebuilt with money alone.
> 
> Having a date here and there will do very little precisely because he's not an integrated part of the family. I believe that needs to change.
> 
> When my hb was looking for a job he interviewed for a couple of travelling jobs behind my back. I went through the roof when I found out because I know I can't have a relationship with my hb when he's gone all he time. I'm too fragile emotionally and I need the connection of having him come home and sleep next to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Laila8 said:


> The holier than thou tone Z's thread has taken on is really dismaying. Now he's being told he's not a catch for any woman, he's overweight so it's no wonder his wife doesn't want him, he doesn't do much besides earn a paycheck, and he's raising his kid to be a "sh1t"? Really?
> 
> As for the weight thing, first of all, she is obese too. Millions of overweight people find love, and guess what? Their spouses have sex with them and desire them.


Amen Sister


----------



## jld

lifeistooshort said:


> When my hb was looking for a job he interviewed for a couple of travelling jobs behind my back.


Wow, that had to have hurt you, life. That kind of deception really breaks trust. I am so sorry he did that. 



> I went through the roof when I found out because I know I can't have a relationship with my hb when he's gone all he time. *I'm too fragile emotionally and I need the connection of having him come home and sleep next to me.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


(((life)))

That is really sweet. I bet when you told your husband that, he felt really bad for going behind your back. When he heard you sharing your feelings so vulnerably, he probably felt needed and of great value in your life. Sharing from our heart like that helps our partner understand us and feel closer to us. 

Thanks so much for sharing your experience with us. It helps me understand why you and I have been on opposite ends of Z's job situation.


----------



## lifeistooshort

jld said:


> Wow, that had to have hurt you, life. That kind of deception really breaks trust. I am so sorry he did that.
> 
> 
> 
> (((life)))
> 
> That is really sweet. I bet when you told your husband that, he felt really bad for going behind your back. When he heard you sharing your feelings so vulnerably, he probably felt needed and of great value in your life. Sharing from our heart like that helps our partner understand us and feel closer to us.
> 
> Thanks so much for sharing your experience with us. It helps me understand why you and I have been on opposite ends of Z's job situation.




Thanks jld 

We did have it out over that and I'm not sure he would've actually taken one of them. I think he was just desperate for a job at that point, though I'm not sure why because it's not like our bills weren't being paid..... that's one of the benefits of having a wife that's making good money. He didn't have to shoulder the financial burden alone.

Plus he's a very good house husband. 

I did find out that one of our neighbors asked him why he couldn't just get such a job and he replied that he couldn't if he wanted to stay married. 

So at this point I think he understands.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

lifeistooshort said:


> MEM, I think I've made clear that I think the volunteering is out of control.
> I just feel that it won't be that easy for her to manage full time work and three kids, one of whom is one and yes someone will need to watch him.
> 
> Yes single parents do it. I know because I was one for 5 years before I married hb. When I divorced my youngest was 2 and I'd been a stay at home. I built my professional life while dealing wth this, and my ex paid child support but did nothing else. These days he doesn't even pay CS.
> 
> But you know what I didn't have to deal with? A hb I wasn't connected to that showed up on weekends looking for sex while I was working and running the house all week. My weekends belonged to me and my boys.
> 
> 
> If you're single you make do. But they're married, and it's unfair to expect her to shoulder 80% of the burden, which she will if she starts working. That just breeds resentment.
> 
> As for your financial assessment I would agree if it were merely financial concerns. But there is a deteriorating hb/wife relationship here in large part because they're not partners but instead adversaries. That must be considered too.
> 
> 
> No marital relationship was ever rebuilt with money alone.
> 
> Having a date here and there will do very little precisely because he's not an integrated part of the family. I believe that needs to change.
> 
> You're right that his strategy is to hope she's more afraid of divorce than him and that gets her to put out. It's not going to work, at least not long term.
> 
> If he gets to a place of strength he can either see if she follows or move on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I get where you're coming from now.

The dilemma would be then with her debt, how could he presumably reduce his income to be around more?

This could only logistically happen if she quit volunteering and started working first. Assuming a monthly loan repayment schedule. Or am I missing something?


----------



## lifeistooshort

marduk said:


> I get where you're coming from now.
> 
> The dilemma would be then with her debt, how could he presumably reduce his income to be around more?
> 
> This could only logistically happen if she quit volunteering and started working first. Assuming a monthly loan repayment schedule. Or am I missing something?


No, she has to work. No getting around that.

It'll be tough with a 1 year old but he'll keep getting bigger.

Even with daycare as expensive as it is it's an investment in her future earning potential, so you have to look at the big picture.

And whenever I think of the volunteering I'm reminded of a conversation I had with they lady who ran the extended day at the elementary school my boys went to. We talked about all of the moms who volunteered a lot and she said that what she sees happen is that all of these women volunteer for years for nothing, essentially doing some of the same jobs that paid teachers and aids do. But eventually they get older and realize that paid teachers have a retirement and they have nothing to show for it. This lady had been around a while.

And Z's wife has a degree, she could easily be a paid teacher.....and not only is teacher retirement a sweet deal but there are some loan reimbursement programs for teachers that enter what's called a "critical shortage" subject. She should look into that.

She'll have to square herself with the fact that she has to work. They have to make a larger plan together involving her working and him working locally, and that may involve some re-budgeting.


----------



## john117

And without resolving the intimacy issue the only plan they can carry out is NONE.


----------



## Marduk

john117 said:


> And without resolving the intimacy issue the only plan they can carry out is NONE.


I think they need to be on fiscally secure and somewhat equitable footing before they can even tackle that.

Once that's done, then they need to deal with fitness and communication.

Then, sex.

I wonder who's watching the kid while she volunteers. Did I miss that?


----------



## MEM2020

Laila,
I'm not competing with Zdog - therefore my comments are not made in a 'competitive' - or what you are calling 'holier than thou', context.

We are ALL trying to help him. 

His weight MAY be a significant attraction issue. 

All I'm trying to do is point out - areas where he could make some high impact changes. 





Laila8 said:


> The holier than thou tone Z's thread has taken on is really dismaying. Now he's being told he's not a catch for any woman, he's overweight so it's no wonder his wife doesn't want him, he doesn't do much besides earn a paycheck, and he's raising his kid to be a "sh1t"? Really?
> 
> As for the weight thing, first of all, she is obese too. Millions of overweight people find love, and guess what? Their spouses have sex with them and desire them.


----------



## john117

marduk said:


> I think they need to be on fiscally secure and somewhat equitable footing before they can even tackle that.
> 
> Once that's done, then they need to deal with fitness and communication.
> 
> Then, sex.
> 
> I wonder who's watching the kid while she volunteers. Did I miss that?


Au contraire, why would I negotiate or cooperate in good faith with such a wench?

Hence the Pyrrhic victory references.

Let her rot in debtors prison for all I care. 

"We" has left the building.


----------



## Marduk

john117 said:


> Au contraire, why would I negotiate or cooperate in good faith with such a wench?
> 
> Hence the Pyrrhic victory references.
> 
> Let her rot in debtors prison for all I care.
> 
> "We" has left the building.


Oh, I wouldn't negotiate. You know me, I'm an *******.

But if he wants to play the "please pick me" game, he needs to get on solid footing first.


----------



## GusPolinski

Laila8 said:


> The holier than thou tone Z's thread has taken on is really dismaying. Now he's being told he's not a catch for any woman, he's overweight so it's no wonder his wife doesn't want him, he doesn't do much besides earn a paycheck, and he's raising his kid to be a "sh1t"? Really?
> 
> As for the weight thing, first of all, she is obese too. Millions of overweight people find love, and guess what? Their spouses have sex with them and desire them.


*cough*


----------



## john117

The lack of cooperation caused by intimacy drought cannot be ignored. Years ago before the Rapture we accomplished some serious sh!t working together. 

Today I'm surprised if we can put a potted plant on the deck without bickering about where to put it. 

At this point it feels like I've given my two week notice. Her new job requires very little insight from me (people reading, for example) and thankfully is a 9-5 job so at 5:01 the laptop is off - she still works from home- and maybe some shopping where we rarely talk, cycling where we rarely talk, and so on. By 9:00 or 10:00 pm she goes to sleep.

That's lack of cooperation right there. It's more "what's in it for me" than anything else. Z can think where they could be (Z2 too) with or without cooperation and act accordingly).


----------



## ZDog377

So I'm going to try and answer a couple questions/comments:

- I didn't bring up the weight until now because I wanted to believe she was telling me the truth when she said it wasn't an issue. She's always been honest before so I had no reason to doubt her now. 

- It's funny the people who say I don't do my share. I understand I'm not home as much but when I am home I try and do more than my share to make up for it. 

- She talked to the student loan people and she is on a small payment plan right now to get her out of default. 

- She had the lap band surgery before and is now having what looks like complications from it. Insurance paid for it then, the removal/install of the new product (sleeve) will still be paid by insurance. Except now we have to pay 20% of the total cost, insurance will pay the remaining 80%. 

- She is looking at getting certification to do medical transcription with some of the inheritance money she gets. She still says she's going to fit in volunteering even if she does go back to work.


----------



## john117

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*

Medical transcription pays $15/hr. How much does her field of study pay with her qualifications?

This is what I'm talking about living in Unicornia. 

Use the inheritance to supplement her salary from full time work in her field and pay daycare, forget volunteering and work full time. 

What she is proposing, by the time she works 10-20 hours a week (volunteering has to be done....) is not workable. Full time transcription is like $32k a year, a bit better. Part time is a lost cause.

(2012 figures off Google)


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> She talked to the student loan people and she is on a small payment plan right now to get her out of default.


Could you elaborate on this, please? Is this recent? 

I ask because you had mentioned a few weeks ago that she had stopped making payments several months ago, as the $700 monthly payment was only going towards interest, and she did not feel it was worth continuing with it. What changed?


----------



## ZDog377

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



john117 said:


> Medical transcription pays $15/hr. How much does her field of study pay with her qualifications?
> 
> This is what I'm talking about living in Unicornia.
> 
> Use the inheritance to supplement her salary from full time work in her field and pay daycare, forget volunteering and work full time.
> 
> What she is proposing, by the time she works 10-20 hours a week (volunteering has to be done....) is not workable. Full time transcription is like $32k a year, a bit better. Part time is a lost cause.
> 
> (2012 figures off Google)


John, I've asked her to at least cut back on the volunteering because I know it is something she enjoys. She says it is me trying to be controlling and know where she is at all times. I obviously don't see it that way and I've told her I see it as a major issue between us. 
@jld, she called and explained the situation. We told them we have about $100 to spare a month, depending on electricity since we aren't on the budget plan like we are with gas. They offered a $5/month plan for her right now. They said it will go directly towards the principal, not the total overall amount.


----------



## jld

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ZDog377 said:


> @jld, she called and explained the situation. We told them we have about $100 to spare a month, depending on electricity since we aren't on the budget plan like we are with gas. They offered a $5/month plan for her right now. They said it will go directly towards the principal, not the total overall amount.


Excellent, Z. So glad they are willing to work with you. That must give your wife hope.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Your weight might not be an issue for her if you guys were otherwise on the same page and getting along well.

And even if it's not, it's an issue for you if you decide to go back to the dating pool.

Look, I know you're trying to make up for things when you get home and I commend that. I just don't think it's possible to make up for the fact that week to week you're not an integral part of the family. 

You can catch up on chores and that's a great thing, but it's not going to nurture the team dynamic and the couple bond like you being around would. That's what I don't think you understand and what you don't want to deal with. 

Some people need regular bonding. ....i know I do. Your wife may be one of them. She's a single parent all week and is not successfully making the transition to a team on weekends. Military families go through this all the time. .... not everyone is cut out for separations. Your wife clearly isn't..... she resents you popping in on weekends and doing what she sees as sticking your nose into tyne household she's been running all week.

I saw this dynamic all the time in the military. Some people successfully pull this off and are able to maintain a team dynamic even with one of them coming and going. 

Like dug and jld.

Others can't do it. 

Threatening divorce is not going to create a bond. At best it'll strong arm her to fake it and tolerate you. Or she'll call your bluff and you'll be divorced. 

Your wife isn't bonded to you and if I was her I wouldn't be either. Maybe your emotional needs are different. If she was bonded to you she'd be craving your touch. 

I think her excessive volunteering fills am emotional need that she's not getting met. She'll probably end up getting a job, which she needs to, but it will not contribute to your bond. 

You can't attack that until you're around most of the time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> John, I've asked her to at least cut back on the volunteering because I know it is something she enjoys. She says it is me trying to be controlling and know where she is at all times. I obviously don't see it that way and I've told her I see it as a major issue between us.
> 
> @jld, she called and explained the situation. We told them we have about $100 to spare a month, depending on electricity since we aren't on the budget plan like we are with gas. They offered a $5/month plan for her right now. They said it will go directly towards the principal, not the total overall amount.


Her calling you controlling is a way to get you off track. It's blame shifting, because it causes you to have to defend yourself rather than listening to your valid concerns. You are not trying to control her. You are trying to get her to recognize her responsibilities and live up to them.

Again, what was her field of study? Is she qualified to be a teacher? If she is, she could have a similar schedule to that of the children. It would solve most of the going back to work issue. Her priority is to her family, not to the PTA. She is putting volunteer work above the needs of her family and that is not okay.

How are you going to handle another payment to cover surgery? If she eats properly, she can lose the weight without going on a calorie restriction diet.

And yet the interest continues to build. That does not solve the problem, it only pushes it forward. That interest will continue to build the amount that needs to be paid off and eventually it will come out of the estate. What you got was a poor bandage and no resolution.

My concern regarding the weight is two fold. First you are being a hypocrite with your son. Everyone in the house should basically be on the same diet. Not to lose weight, but to get healthy. The weight will come off until it is stable. I believe calorie restricted diets are extremely unhealthy. I'm talking about a change of eating habits. Get the junk out of the house. Eat meals that are healthy.

My second concern regarding the weight is your health. Being obese has health risks that can hit you hard and fast. Being healthy isn't really difficult. You just have to understand how to eat for health as well as enjoying your food. It's not complicated and it's not deprivation.


----------



## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> Her calling you controlling is a way to get you off track. It's blame shifting, because it causes you to have to defend yourself rather than listening to your valid concerns. You are not trying to control her. You are trying to get her to recognize her responsibilities and live up to them.
> 
> Again, what was her field of study? Is she qualified to be a teacher? If she is, she could have a similar schedule to that of the children. It would solve most of the going back to work issue. Her priority is to her family, not to the PTA. She is putting volunteer work above the needs of her family and that is not okay.
> 
> How are you going to handle another payment to cover surgery? If she eats properly, she can lose the weight without going on a calorie restriction diet.
> 
> And yet the interest continues to build. That does not solve the problem, it only pushes it forward. That interest will continue to build the amount that needs to be paid off and eventually it will come out of the estate. What you got was a poor bandage and no resolution.
> 
> My concern regarding the weight is two fold. First you are being a hypocrite with your son. Everyone in the house should basically be on the same diet. Not to lose weight, but to get healthy. The weight will come off until it is stable. I believe calorie restricted diets are extremely unhealthy. I'm talking about a change of eating habits. Get the junk out of the house. Eat meals that are healthy.
> 
> My second concern regarding the weight is your health. Being obese has health risks that can hit you hard and fast. Being healthy isn't really difficult. You just have to understand how to eat for health as well as enjoying your food. It's not complicated and it's not deprivation.


She at least needs the surgery to remove the lap band. She is getting pain in that area when she moves a certain way or lifts things. She is calling tomorrow to see what the difference is between just the removal and the additional surgery. I also looked on the hospital website and we would qualify for a reduction in the bill because of our income. She is going to call tomorrow as well and check on that. 

Other than the two youngest, we all usually eat the same meals. We are doing mostly low carb now and it seems to be going well. I understand about the health risks with the obesity and I have some issues going on that I know the weight isn't helping. I know it's not going to change overnight but I'm eating healthy and I've been going to the gym as much as I can.


----------



## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> She at least needs the surgery to remove the lap band. She is getting pain in that area when she moves a certain way or lifts things. She is calling tomorrow to see what the difference is between just the removal and the additional surgery. I also looked on the hospital website and we would qualify for a reduction in the bill because of our income. She is going to call tomorrow as well and check on that.


This is good. I hope she has it removed and gets her eating habits under control. The problem with weight gain is usually not overeating. Sometimes it is, but not usually. The problem is usually too much grain, sugar, and refined foods. It's pretty simple. I eat until I'm satisfied. I don't usually eat until I'm hungry and I don't snack.



ZDog377 said:


> Other than the two youngest, we all usually eat the same meals. We are doing mostly low carb now and it seems to be going well. I understand about the health risks with the obesity and I have some issues going on that I know the weight isn't helping. I know it's not going to change overnight but I'm eating healthy and I've been going to the gym as much as I can.


You're right. It won't change overnight. Changing your eating habits and focusing your health is key. I'm glad you are taking a patient attitude towards the process. That way you won't get discouraged. Also, you should see changes in your blood pressure, cholesterol, etc. and just generally feel better.


----------



## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> This is good. I hope she has it removed and gets her eating habits under control. The problem with weight gain is usually not overeating. Sometimes it is, but not usually. The problem is usually too much grain, sugar, and refined foods. It's pretty simple. I eat until I'm satisfied. I don't usually eat until I'm hungry and I don't snack.
> 
> 
> You're right. It won't change overnight. Changing your eating habits and focusing your health is key. I'm glad you are taking a patient attitude towards the process. That way you won't get discouraged. Also, you should see changes in your blood pressure, cholesterol, etc. and just generally feel better.


I think she is looking at getting the new form of the bypass done though. All depends on cost. I think the new one is the "sleeve"? Her problem has been that she never feels full. The surgeon told her there is a protein in some people that causes them to never feel full.


----------



## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> I think she is looking at getting the new form of the bypass done though. All depends on cost. I think the new one is the "sleeve"? Her problem has been that she never feels full. The surgeon told her there is a protein in some people that causes them to never feel full.


I've heard of that. It must really suck to never feel satisfied. Is it Prader-Willi syndrome?


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## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> I've heard of that. It must really suck to never feel satisfied. Is it Prader-Willi syndrome?


I don't believe it is, I looked up symptoms for that the other day for something else and don't think she fits any of them. 

On another note, we did get to spend some time together this weekend. Friends of ours are having a baby and we went out with them last night as a final night out before the baby comes. We went out separately, but made it back to the house at the same time at night. We got to spend some time sleeping in this morning since the kids were sleeping over at the sitter's house. Earlier in the day, she mentioned earlier in the day about having "relations" later that night. 

We went to bed pretty much right after we got home. There was some touching going on and things like that but when it progressed to sex again it almost seemed like it was forced. However, when we were at the friends house looking at baby things, she was all over me saying "just one more......". 

Is all of this just a way to mess with my head? It seems like once I served my purpose of having kids with her I'm no longer of any use and she doesn't see any purpose in sex.


----------



## Openminded

Some women do feel that way, unfortunately. But it seems that the two of you are maxed out as it is so hopefully you aren't seriously considering it.


----------



## turnera

ZDog377 said:


> I don't believe it is, I looked up symptoms for that the other day for something else and don't think she fits any of them.
> 
> On another note, we did get to spend some time together this weekend. Friends of ours are having a baby and we went out with them last night as a final night out before the baby comes.


OMG, threadjack, but I just got back from watching Neighbors 2. Two couples, both pregnant, and one of the wives was due to give birth the next day goes to the sorority party next door for her 'last night of freedom.' It was freakin' hilarious.


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## MEM2020

Zdog,
Thing is, all this stuff is interrelated. And - you are doing something that is quite disappointing. 

On the one hand you've been very freely telling us about Z2's loans and integrity issues. On the other, choosing to believe her comments about your weight.

I'm ok with your decision not to invite Z2 here. Not ok with the level of candor you have demonstrated here. 





ZDog377 said:


> So I'm going to try and answer a couple questions/comments:
> 
> - I didn't bring up the weight until now because I wanted to believe she was telling me the truth when she said it wasn't an issue. She's always been honest before so I had no reason to doubt her now.
> 
> - It's funny the people who say I don't do my share. I understand I'm not home as much but when I am home I try and do more than my share to make up for it.
> 
> - She talked to the student loan people and she is on a small payment plan right now to get her out of default.
> 
> - She had the lap band surgery before and is now having what looks like complications from it. Insurance paid for it then, the removal/install of the new product (sleeve) will still be paid by insurance. Except now we have to pay 20% of the total cost, insurance will pay the remaining 80%.
> 
> - She is looking at getting certification to do medical transcription with some of the inheritance money she gets. She still says she's going to fit in volunteering even if she does go back to work.


----------



## ZDog377

MEM11363 said:


> Zdog,
> Thing is, all this stuff is interrelated. And - you are doing something that is quite disappointing.
> 
> On the one hand you've been very freely telling us about Z2's loans and integrity issues. On the other, choosing to believe her comments about your weight.
> 
> I'm ok with your decision not to invite Z2 here. Not ok with the level of candor you have demonstrated here.



Not to sound stupid, but I don't know what you mean.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> Zdog,
> Thing is, all this stuff is interrelated. And - you are doing something that is quite disappointing.
> 
> On the one hand you've been very freely telling us about Z2's loans and integrity issues. On the other, choosing to believe her comments about your weight.
> 
> I'm ok with your decision not to invite Z2 here. Not ok with the level of candor you have demonstrated here.


Inviting her here would have been the fast track to seeing his own weaknesses in the marriage, MEM.


----------



## MEM2020

Zdog,

She has handled the loan in a dishonest manner. She pretends there is nothing she can do, when that isn't true at all.

So why would you believe her comments about your weight.





ZDog377 said:


> Not to sound stupid, but I don't know what you mean.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> Zdog,
> 
> She has handled the loan in a dishonest manner. She pretends there is nothing she can do, when that isn't true at all.
> 
> So why would you believe her comments about your weight.


Just to add one piece - 

You are picking and choosing which parts of reality to believe in. 

Reality is not optional.


----------



## ZDog377

marduk said:


> Just to add one piece -
> 
> You are picking and choosing which parts of reality to believe in.
> 
> Reality is not optional.


I'm starting to realize this the hard way. I've laid off on the "touchy feely" things lately and it's confusing her as to why. Then she tries it and is allowed to get frustrated when I refuse or don't seem into it. 

I mentioned to her that it was nice to do something this past Saturday but I'm not initiating anymore. If she wants it, she is going to have to come out and say what she wants. She then threw back into my face about when I thought she was cheating on me. She asked me "should I assume you're getting it somewhere else if you don't want it from me?" I calmly explained to her that's not what it was and it's a source of argument anymore, so why start fights over it.


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## Holdingontoit

Z: If you invalidate her feelings and arguments, you probably won't help her feel close to you or safe with you. Maybe it would have been better if you had agreed with her "yes, actually, you know I want sex and you know we aren't having much so yes you should be worried that I might be tempted to cheat. I don't intend to but I am only human and you are leaving me very open to temptation." If you keep reassuring her that you will never cheat and never divorce her, you don't give her much concern that denying you sex is a threat to her lifestyle. You aren't going to "nice" her into sex. You aren't going to be a "good boy" and guilt her into "giving" you some sex. Those are classic NMMNG covert contracts.


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## ZDog377

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



jld said:


> Excellent, Z. So glad they are willing to work with you. That must give your wife hope.


 @jld, I don't think it was bugging her that much. She wasn't planning on doing anything with them until I told her she needed to. The final straw for me was when they called my phone looking for her. They've called a couple of times since their agreement and she hangs up on the guy because he can't pronounce our last name. 

She's received her first pay check from her job and I can see already that she's not wanting to put any of it into savings. She took out enough for taxes, but that's it. 

We had a discussion the other day about eating healthier. Her dad came down this weekend and brought donuts with him. She then stopped at a donut place yesterday and comes back out with a dozen. Finally, we had to do some running around yesterday and stopped at a gas station to grab drinks. The kids came back out Mountain Dew and other sugar loaded drinks. I quietly said something to her. Nothing was said to the kids. 

I've been trying to eat at least a salad a day, but it doesn't mean anything to the kids if there is all this other stuff to eat. I'll admit I will have maybe one a day as part of breakfast, but that's it. The kids are having 2 or 3 a day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ZDog377 said:


> @jld, I don't think it was bugging her that much. She wasn't planning on doing anything with them until I told her she needed to. The final straw for me was when they called my phone looking for her. They've called a couple of times since their agreement and she hangs up on the guy because he can't pronounce our last name.


She has hung up on them a few times just in the last week and a half or so?

Does she understand that without that agreement, she would eventually see her whole paycheck and whatever social security she would get going to pay back those loans, instead?

Or is your wife one that, without something right in front of her, it does not exist? A very "live in the present moment" kind of person?



> She's received her first pay check from her job and I can see already that she's not wanting to put any of it into savings. She took out enough for taxes, but that's it.


What kind of work is she doing? When?



> We had a discussion the other day about eating healthier. Her dad came down this weekend and brought donuts with him. She then stopped at a donut place yesterday and comes back out with a dozen. Finally, we had to do some running around yesterday and stopped at a gas station to grab drinks. The kids came back out Mountain Dew and other sugar loaded drinks. I quietly said something to her. Nothing was said to the kids.
> 
> I've been trying to eat at least a salad a day, but it doesn't mean anything to the kids if there is all this other stuff to eat. I'll admit I will have maybe one a day as part of breakfast, but that's it. The kids are having 2 or 3 a day.


The parent they are with the most is going to have the most influence on their eating habits. And if your wife does not really see her eating as a problem, then good luck with that. It is hard enough to change our own habits, much less anyone else's.


----------



## ZDog377

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



jld said:


> She has hung up on them a few times just in the last week and a half or so?
> 
> Does she understand that without that agreement, she would eventually see her whole paycheck and whatever social security she would get going to pay back those loans, instead?
> 
> Or is your wife one that, without something right in front of her, it does not exist? A very "live in the present moment" kind of person?
> 
> 
> 
> What kind of work is she doing? When?
> 
> 
> 
> The parent they are with the most is going to have the most influence on their eating habits. And if your wife does not really see her eating as a problem, then good luck with that. It is hard enough to change our own habits, much less anyone else's.


Yes, I believe she is one of those "in the moment" type people. I keep telling her they won't go away. As an example, when her aunt passed they found money hidden all over the house. Granted her aunt didn't get to use it but it helped pay the bills until the house sold. She feels that her aunt could have used the money to go on a vacation or something instead. 

She's placing foreign exchange students. It is a job she can do from home, but how much she gets paid depends on how many hours she puts in. Lately those hours have been pretty much non-existant.


----------



## jld

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ZDog377 said:


> Yes, I believe she is one of those "in the moment" type people. I keep telling her they won't go away. As an example, when her aunt passed they found money hidden all over the house. Granted her aunt didn't get to use it but it helped pay the bills until the house sold. She feels that her aunt could have used the money to go on a vacation or something instead.
> 
> She's placing foreign exchange students. It is a job she can do from home, but how much she gets paid depends on how many hours she puts in. Lately those hours have been pretty much non-existant.


That sounds like a good job for her. Funny, summer is usually a time when those organizations are scouting like crazy for fall placements.

Did you ever look up Myers-Briggs? She sounds like a P, and you are more of a J. Ps make life fun. Js keep life on track. You need both.


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## Blossom Leigh

I'm sorry your wife is choosing to not maximize her opportunities Z, I know that is frustrating. 

She may be one of these that is going to learn the hard way which is why I would let her fall flat on her face, so that she gets there faster. I wouldn't be "stepping in" to do or remind her of her responsibilities if I were staying. She is currently making the bed she is going to lie in, so removing your help helps her make it faster and get to the lesson faster.


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## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> I'm sorry your wife is choosing to not maximize her opportunities Z, I know that is frustrating.
> 
> She may be one of these that is going to learn the hard way which is why I would let her fall flat on her face, so that she gets there faster. I wouldn't be "stepping in" to do or remind her of her responsibilities if I were staying. She is currently making the bed she is going to lie in, so removing your help helps her make it faster and get to the lesson faster.


That's going to be the hard thing for me to control. I don't want to see her fall on her face but I need to realize that's the only way she will see things.


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## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> That's going to be the hard thing for me to control. I don't want to see her fall on her face but I need to realize that's the only way she will see things.


It's hard not to shelter the ones we love, but sometimes we have to realize that we are sheltering them from reality and that's not healthy for them or us.
I think you really love your wife. Does she know that? How does she feel loved? Do you know what makes your wife feel loved? Do you understand your wife? I think if a man truly seeks to understand his wife, love her for who she is, and at the same time not enable her shortcomings, that he helps her to bring out her best self. It's a tall order, but usually worth the effort.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> That's going to be the hard thing for me to control. I don't want to see her fall on her face but I need to realize that's the only way she will see things.


Sometimes its the greatest love we can show when it is done FOR them and not against them.


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## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> It's hard not to shelter the ones we love, but sometimes we have to realize that we are sheltering them from reality and that's not healthy for them or us.
> I think you really love your wife. Does she know that? How does she feel loved? Do you know what makes your wife feel loved? Do you understand your wife? I think if a man truly seeks to understand his wife, love her for who she is, and at the same time not enable her shortcomings, that he helps her to bring out her best self. It's a tall order, but usually worth the effort.


I know her definite #1 to show love is acts of service. That's why I try and wash the pots and pans for her and things I know that sometimes overwhelm her. I try and understand her but there are times that it doesn't make sense. She has a list down on the fridge of all the projects she wants me to complete this summer. I can almost guarantee that if I finish that list, a new list will go up the second I have that one done. 

I'll be the first one to admit she is a dedicated mother. It's hard for me because I understand she needs some time to herself and that's why she does the PTO or I don't have an issue when she wants to go do something with her friends when I'm home. It just seems that she feels we will have time for each other when the kids are out of the house and I can't get across to her that I would like undivided attention from her now and then.


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## john117

Blossom Leigh said:


> Sometimes its the greatest love we can show when it is done FOR them and not against them.


Someone not interested in intimacy to the degree described here is not likely to be concerned about love to begin with.


----------



## john117

ZDog377 said:


> She has a list down on the fridge of all the projects she wants me to complete this summer. I can almost guarantee that if I finish that list, a new list will go up the second I have that one done..


I started adding "have sex on Saturday" to my wife's list on the fridge. After 3 weeks the list disappeared never to be seen again...


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## Cynthia

john117 said:


> I started adding "have sex on Saturday" to my wife's list on the fridge. After 3 weeks the list disappeared never to be seen again...


Are you serious?


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## farsidejunky

Because you have not yet reached the point of being sick and tired of being sick and tired.


Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Emerging Buddhist

john117 said:


> I started adding "have sex on Saturday" to my wife's list on the fridge. After 3 weeks the list disappeared never to be seen again...


Now that's funny... effective, but funny.


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## Blossom Leigh

john117 said:


> Someone not interested in intimacy to the degree described here is not likely to be concerned about love to begin with.


Would have to agree :nerd:


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## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> I know her definite #1 to show love is acts of service. That's why I try and wash the pots and pans for her and things I know that sometimes overwhelm her. I try and understand her but there are times that it doesn't make sense. She has a list down on the fridge of all the projects she wants me to complete this summer. I can almost guarantee that if I finish that list, a new list will go up the second I have that one done.
> 
> I'll be the first one to admit she is a dedicated mother. It's hard for me because I understand she needs some time to herself and that's why she does the PTO or I don't have an issue when she wants to go do something with her friends when I'm home. It just seems that she feels we will have time for each other when the kids are out of the house and I can't get across to her that I would like undivided attention from her now and then.


1. I think you are doing enough service and keeping up your end of he household chores, but there must be some way to reach her heart unless she is truly closed off. She may have walled herself up in her own little fantasy world, but your only hope is to try and break through in a loving manner. This is why you must study her and learn to understand her. You are in a difficult position and are either going to find a way to reach her or remain miserable until the kids are grown. Based on what you have written, I don't see you leaving her at this point, so you may as well spend your time learning all about how she ticks and what really reaches her heart, then acting upon that.
2. Another step is to learn about codependency and how to avoid it in your life and marriage.
3. Get your own personal life in order. Eat for health and flavor. Exercise. Etc.
4. Learn how to set and maintain boundaries.
5. Figure out what you need to do to change jobs or even careers to something that will keep you in town, so you have more control over what goes on in your own home. This is a major part of your problem. Your wife rules the roost and there is nothing you can do about that when you aren't there the majority of the time. It may take you a few years, but in order for the status quo to change, you will have to find a different job. Maybe you can do some on-line schooling to pick up skills needed to change careers. You have plenty of time to do that while on the road. You may even be able to increase your salary if you pick up new skills.

Then rather than coming here and discussing your situation that isn't really changing, you can discuss the steps you are taking and what progress you are making and run it by the group for feedback and encouragement.


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## Cynthia

On another note, your wife doesn't have to do a thing for you to step up and make a plan for your life and how you are going to be a strong, loving father who provides a good example to your children. That part is all on you. We are each responsible for our own behavior despite the behavior of others. You are allowing your wife to take complete control of he family, which is a huge burden to her. The two of you are not at all on the same page.

If you do you, as in you take responsibility for yourself by developing a plan for how you are going to get out of this mess with our without the cooperation of your wife, things will change for the better in your life. Do not try to get your wife to change. Simply lead out and do what is necessary on your part. She will either follow or not, but you will be making positive changes that will result in a better outcome than what you are experiencing now.


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## Catherine602

Z I you don't think you want attention from her, seems like you are asking her to put you on her task list. 

You want to spend time with her where you both focus only on each other. I feel exclusive time with my husband sans kids, computers and phones is like going into a bubble and shutting out the noise for a time. 

Your inviting her to escape on a mini holiday. That's how you have to think of it, no heaviness, sadness or desperation. You create the atmosphere and invite her in.


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## ZDog377

Catherine602 said:


> Z I you don't think you want attention from her, seems like you are asking her to put you on her task list.
> 
> You want to spend time with her where you both focus only on each other. I feel exclusive time with my husband sans kids, computers and phones is like going into a bubble and shutting out the noise for a time.
> 
> Your inviting her to escape on a mini holiday. That's how you have to think of it, no heaviness, sadness or desperation. You create the atmosphere and invite her in.


Its at the point though where I feel I have to schedule time with her. If it isn't playing a game on Facebook, watching one of her reality TV shows, or spending time with the kids it isn't on her priority list. Yet she will ask me where I'm traveling to and then say one of her friends from HayDay on Facebook lives there and recommends a certain place. 

I've tried scheduling time for just us. I was hoping to have some time at the beginning of August. Her mom said she would babysit the two younger ones and we could get away for a night. Now, with her starting another job she doesn't know if she can get the time off. 

I've started worrying more about myself and focusing on things that make me happy. I'm trying to spend more time with the kids doing what they want and enjoy. Its just hard though when it feels so one sided.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602

There are some things you do that is expected and you should not feel that you are giving more. Spending time with your children is something you do as a father, it's for them not your wife. It may help to put things in perspective. She probably does not see the time with your children as an act of service. 

Try not to give more than you get. It's not in a tit-for-tat or playing games but preserve your sense of balance in the relationship. If some of the extra things you do for her, which are essentially gifts, don't move her then don't do them. 

Are you working on acting independent and avoiding appearing needy?


----------



## ZDog377

Catherine602 said:


> There are some things you do that is expected and you should not feel that you are giving more. Spending time with your children is something you do as a father, it's for them not your wife. It may help to put things in perspective. She probably does not see the time with your children as an act of service.
> 
> Try not to give more than you get. It's not in a tit-for-tat or playing games but preserve your sense of balance in the relationship. If some of the extra things you do for her, which are essentially gifts, don't move her then don't do them.
> 
> Are you working on acting independent and avoiding appearing needy?


She has said before that me taking the kids and doing things with them is a turn on. 

I'm trying to be more independent but I feel I've been less needy. I'm almost at the point where i feel we are more like room mates than a couple. 

She's all confused now as to why I'm not as touchy feeley as I used to be. I explained to her that I can't just turn it on and off like she can. I feel she got what she wanted by having two more kids and now sex doesn't serve a purpose anymore. 

She makes comments about how I won't be able to handle her going back and things like that. Or about how she will be working and having to do full time school online.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602

It's her choice to work and do online school right? She sounds very ambitious, what is she planning to do with college degree in the future? 

Do you feel that you are just along for the ride in this relationship? Do you have plans for the future are you working towards them? 

The problem may be that you two are not working as a team. She has her agenda and I'm not sure you have one. Is it possible that she is leaving you behind in a sense? Does she think her effort with school and work are superior to yours? 

You are making a sacrifice eo she can do the online courses right? Does she show any appreciation of your contribution to her success?


----------



## ZDog377

Catherine602 said:


> It's her choice to work and do online school right? She sounds very ambitious, what is she planning to do with college degree in the future?
> 
> Do you feel that you are just along for the ride in this relationship? Do you have plans for the future are you working towards them?
> 
> The problem may be that you two are not working as a team. She has her agenda and I'm not sure you have one. Is it possible that she is leaving you behind in a sense? Does she think her effort with school and work are superior to yours?
> 
> You are making a sacrifice eo she can do the online courses right? Does she show any appreciation of your contribution to her success?


She already has two college degrees, a bachelor's and a masters. She's going back to work to try and pay down her over 125K student loans. She's going back to school so she can find something so she can work from home.

I'll be the first to say our goals don't align. She lives in the moment and really doesnt look to the future. She always feels her effort in anything is superior though. I constantly feel whatever I do will never be enough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brooklynAnn

She is just worried about how she will handle school, work and family. But instead of saying that to you, she turns it around and makes it seem like you will have problems with her going back to school/work. It's a stalling tactic.

Let her know things will be fine. That you guys will find ways of managing the new schedule and finding a new normal. 

But how is she going to do all of this with you being gone so much? Not that it's impossible, single mums do it all the time.


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## ZDog377

brooklynAnn said:


> She is just worried about how she will handle school, work and family. But instead of saying that to you, she turns it around and makes it seem like you will have problems with her going back to school/work. It's a stalling tactic.
> 
> Let her know things will be fine. That you guys will find ways of managing the new schedule and finding a new normal.
> 
> But how is she going to do all of this with you being gone so much? Not that it's impossible, single mums do it all the time.


That's what I've tried to explain to her about a lot of things. She means one thing but the way she says it makes it come across as something different. I've told her it might not be easy in the beginning but we will work together and get through it.


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## brooklynAnn

Well it's going to take a lot of planning and coordination but you do what you have to do. 

A few years ago I took a full time job. I do that every now and then but usually in the summer when the kids are in their 6 weeks stay away program. I lasted 2 months because the kids refused to work with me, they complained about being picked up late and not having a fresh dinner every night. My son has food allergies. It was very trying and we would have been fine if we had given it time. But we decided to work part time from home, which made life easier for everyone again. It was bookkeeping, so all I had to do was login from home. That lasted for a while until they needed someone full-time. 

Maybe a part time position for now would get everyone ready for mum going back to work full-time.


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## jld

I thought anyone defaulting on student loans would forfeit all Social Security benefits, but apparently not:

What Happens If You Default on Your Student Loans | Nolo.com


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## Maricha75

jld said:


> I thought anyone defaulting on student loans would forfeit all Social Security benefits, but apparently not:
> 
> What Happens If You Default on Your Student Loans | Nolo.com


Why did you think they would forfeit their entire income (assuming Social Security is all the income they have, of course)?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## jld

Maricha75 said:


> Why did you think they would forfeit their entire income (assuming Social Security is all the income they have, of course)?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Not sure. Glad to read the clarification this morning, though.


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## ZDog377

jld said:


> I thought anyone defaulting on student loans would forfeit all Social Security benefits, but apparently not:
> 
> What Happens If You Default on Your Student Loans | Nolo.com


Yeah, it seems they can't take more than a certain percentage of her disposable income either. I wish it stated what was considered "disposable" income.


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> Yeah, it seems they can't take more than a certain percentage of her disposable income either. I wish it stated what was considered "disposable" income.


Z, have you done any of your own research on any of this? Or have you only looked at what some of us have linked here?


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## MEM2020

Zdog,
Not sure why I missed this on the first read - but your post below really jumped out at me the second time I saw it - which was a moment ago. 

In a perfect relationship - everything is balanced - and you match up on desires of various sorts 100%. 

So given that's just not reality - I don't think you understood at all what several of us were recommending. 

It seemed like you were crowding her physically - so you backed off. That was an excellent decision. But the point of backing off isn't to teach her rejection feels bad, by rejecting her when she touches you. 

The point of backing off was to let her have some control over how much affection you two have. 

When she comes to you - that's a big positive step which you want to reward. But for a while, let her drive. Meaning - don't try to turn non sexual affection into sexual affection. Let a hug be a hug. 

What you will find is that - often - she will - take a non sexual touch to a sexual touch - if you merely respond in kind to what she is doing. 

And for now - set your resentment aside - go with the flow and see what happens. But if you reject her when she reaches out to you, you are punishing her for the very behavior that you seek. 

For now your SOLE focus ought to be on creating a consistently positive association with touch. 

Now this last bit - isn't fair - it is however dead true. Showing a high level of sexual arousal - before your partner gets at least somewhat turned on - tends to be a turnoff. 

So - sure - hard ons happen and that's just natural stuff. Nothing to apologize for or even comment on. But grinding a hardon against a not yet aroused wife - not the best idea. Same with heavy breathing or certain types of comments. 

I might say: I want you - to M2 - but I don't act hot and heavy until she's starting to get hot herself. 





ZDog377 said:


> I'm starting to realize this the hard way. I've laid off on the "touchy feely" things lately and it's confusing her as to why. Then she tries it and is allowed to get frustrated when I refuse or don't seem into it.
> 
> I mentioned to her that it was nice to do something this past Saturday but I'm not initiating anymore. If she wants it, she is going to have to come out and say what she wants. She then threw back into my face about when I thought she was cheating on me. She asked me "should I assume you're getting it somewhere else if you don't want it from me?" I calmly explained to her that's not what it was and it's a source of argument anymore, so why start fights over it.


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## ZDog377

jld said:


> Z, have you done any of your own research on any of this? Or have you only looked at what some of us have linked here?


I researched in the beginning what would happen because she didn't seem to be wanting to do anything about it. She seems to be doing slightly better about it. It frustrates me though because it seems to bother me more than it does her. She is kind of taking the "out of sight, out of mind" approach to them where I'm looking to the future and saying we will need more to retire on because we won't both be getting full Social Security. I know it's a long way off since we are both early 30's, but I grew up watching my parents live almost paycheck to paycheck and I don't want that to be her and I. That's why I make the oldest help cut grass and do more of the labor type things around the house. I want him to know about working for a living and things like that. 

The affection is just a long list of things that are causing issues right now. In the beginning I thought married couples agreed on everything and if you fought it meant you weren't a good couple. Then a few years into it I realized a little bit of argument wasn't bad and kept a relationship healthy. It's at the point now where we can't agree on anything. She has him ask if I'm OK with a friend staying overnight (I appreciate the asking) but if I say no, then I look like the bad guy. He's having a friend stay over probably two nights a week which I consider plenty. We have a small issue with the neighbor now because the wife won't share the driveway (long story). The kids went to play in the backyard which is more her yard than ours. I asked her if she could tell the kids to play in the front yard because of the issue with the neighbor. She doesn't have an issue with it, so she tells that kids that I'm the reason they need to go play in the front yard. I feel it's a constant issue of me vs. her. She likes to be a friend to the kids first and a parent second.


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## jld

She might find this story inspiring, Z. It shows there is hope for people with large debts.

https://www.creditsesame.com/blog/student-loan-debt-battle-how-we-paid-off-100k/


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## ZDog377

Just wanted to apologize for the rant yesterday. It just seemed like things were coming to a head. Fridge was acting up, guy is coming this week for home equity appraisal, just a bunch of things at once. I will hopefully get some unexpected time at home tomorrow night with only one of the three kids. I'm planning on spending some one on one time together if things work out.


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## Blossom Leigh

What rant....

That was so mild that had you not described it as a rant, I would have missed it...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> Just wanted to apologize for the rant yesterday. It just seemed like things were coming to a head. Fridge was acting up, guy is coming this week for home equity appraisal, just a bunch of things at once. I will hopefully get some unexpected time at home tomorrow night with only one of the three kids. I'm planning on spending some one on one time together if things work out.


I'm confused. What rant? Do you feel that when you express something negative it's a rant? I didn't see any rudeness or going on and on about anything. Can you explain?


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## MEM2020

Zdog,

That thing you are perceiving - where Z2 - says one thing in words - while seemingly to be delivering a very different message in tone - that thing is very real. 

The oft humorously used example of this is when your wife angrily says the word: 'FINE' at the end of an argument. If you are experienced with such things, you know that - when you hear that word - spoken in anger - what comes to mind is the scene in the Wizard of Oz - when the Witch of the west says: I'll get you my pretty and your little dog too.

Words are great - but there's often more real content in tone. 






ZDog377 said:


> Just wanted to apologize for the rant yesterday. It just seemed like things were coming to a head. Fridge was acting up, guy is coming this week for home equity appraisal, just a bunch of things at once. I will hopefully get some unexpected time at home tomorrow night with only one of the three kids. I'm planning on spending some one on one time together if things work out.


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## turnera

Do you two have a habit of bringing up a subject but then leaving the talk without coming to an actual decision?


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## ZDog377

turnera2 said:


> Do you two have a habit of bringing up a subject but then leaving the talk without coming to an actual decision?


Yep, I would say at least 50% of the time. For example, I've wanted to sit down and come up with a list of actions that would cause our oldest to lose video game privileges. Something always comes up or she says I'm too hard on him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Then that's one of the major reasons you two are disconnected. MCs say that one of the biggest problems in marriages is when you keep bringing up the same issue. But when you never hammer out the actual SOLUTIONS, well, of course you have to keep bringing it up because it keeps happening! 

So let's drill down to why you're letting that happen.


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## MEM2020

Write it - print it - and sit her down and go over it. 

If she refuses - wait until she wants to discuss something else - and then remind her that the two of you need to finalize the rules before discussing the thing she wants. 

But - don't make this about you. Make it about him. He won't be able to maintain a job or a relationship if he doesn't learn cause and effect. 

It's bad for him to not know what will happen when he does or doesn't do certain things. Kids WANT structure. 




ZDog377 said:


> Yep, I would say at least 50% of the time. For example, I've wanted to sit down and come up with a list of actions that would cause our oldest to lose video game privileges. Something always comes up or she says I'm too hard on him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Holdingontoit

turnera2 said:


> So let's drill down to why you're letting that happen.


That one is easy. He fears the potential consequences if he puts his foot down. The real question is what if anything it would take for him to overcome his fear. Might be nothing would do it. In that case, he might as well accept that things are unlikely to ever improve.


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## MEM2020

What does this mean? Putting his foot down? 

It's a sincere question. 




Holdingontoit said:


> That one is easy. He fears the potential consequences if he puts his foot down. The real question is what if anything it would take for him to overcome his fear. Might be nothing would do it. In that case, he might as well accept that things are unlikely to ever improve.


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## MEM2020

I'm not saying it's wrong to do this.

I'm saying that if your going to use positional authority - you better actually HAVE positional authority. I don't think Zdog has much. 





Holdingontoit said:


> That one is easy. He fears the potential consequences if he puts his foot down. The real question is what if anything it would take for him to overcome his fear. Might be nothing would do it. In that case, he might as well accept that things are unlikely to ever improve.


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## ZDog377

turnera2 said:


> Then that's one of the major reasons you two are disconnected. MCs say that one of the biggest problems in marriages is when you keep bringing up the same issue. But when you never hammer out the actual SOLUTIONS, well, of course you have to keep bringing it up because it keeps happening!
> 
> So let's drill down to why you're letting that happen.


I've asked her to hammer out solutions on things. I've asked her to compromise on spending time together/being intimate. I know there is more that goes into it than that, but I said I'm willing to compromise. I said let's try a certain way for a month, then if it doesn't work we can try something else. We are bound to stumble on something that works. She doesn't want to write anything down, I asked her how are we supposed to keep track of what works and what doesn't? 

I've told her I keep bringing it up because we never get anywhere with it. As an example, she wants a new kitchen floor. The wax has worn off the old one, dirt sticks to it, it needs replaced more than her just wanting a color change. We didn't get it last tax return, but we worked out a solution and will be getting it either with this years tax return or saving up a couple months for it.


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## turnera

I kind of meant, why do you walk away from a discussion without it being resolved? What happens? Does she yell and walk away? Does she yell and YOU walk away? What are the actual dynamics common in such situations?


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## ZDog377

turnera2 said:


> I kind of meant, why do you walk away from a discussion without it being resolved? What happens? Does she yell and walk away? Does she yell and YOU walk away? What are the actual dynamics common in such situations?


She usually starts with saying "here we go again" and I can tell she's frustrated. I usually walk away at that point because I don't want to start yelling. 

Last night as an example. I drove about 1.5 hours out of my way last night to see her and spend time with her. I got home around 3:30. She fell asleep at 4 and slept until almost 6. When she woke up, her first thought was going to the school board meeting until she found out it was the following night. That started an argument there because she knows how I feel about them. She feels she needs to go to every one. Then she tells me her dad and sister are coming down Thursday and staying to Monday. Her dad was just here two weeks ago. She will spend the next day or two trying to figure out how to entertain them while they're here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

When she says, Here we go again, how about saying, You feel like we just go round in circles. 

Then repeat her side of the argument to her. It will make her feel like you are listening and trying to understand her. And you should be trying to do that.


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## ZDog377

jld said:


> When she says, Here we go again, how about saying, You feel like we just go round in circles.
> 
> Then repeat her side of the argument to her. It will make her feel like you are listening and trying to understand her. And you should be trying to do that.


I've tried asking her things like "you're saying this frustrates you, explain why" or "what part of my side frustrates you?". I like to write things down that way I have something to refer to later on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I've tried asking her things like "you're saying this frustrates you, explain why" or "what part of my side frustrates you?". I like to write things down that way I have something to refer to later on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's good. But you are still asking her for mental energy when she is an emotional state. Repeating her words back to her avoids that and calms her, eventually allowing a rational discussion.


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## turnera

ZDog377 said:


> She usually starts with saying "here we go again" and I can tell she's frustrated. I usually walk away at that point because I don't want to start yelling.


jld may be right, that she has just slipped into an emotional state and refuses to hear anything. On the other hand, "here we go again" is a passive aggressive person's #1 method to put YOU on the defensive, to make YOU the bad guy, and get you to shut up and walk away. And guess what? It works!

And tell me why - if you HAD stayed there to finish the discussion - it had to involve yelling? Are you that out of control over your own self and emotions? If so, YOU should be in therapy to work on YOU.

But my main point is that you two are in a cycle, just as I suspected. The person who's frustrated keeps bringing up issues - which makes them look like a nag and which elicits a 'here we go again' - BECAUSE THEY NEVER GET SOLVED. 

If you really wanted to solve some of these recurring issues, you would work harder to be brave enough to withstand her withering scorn and discuss the issue ANYWAY. 

And if you really can't discuss anything with her, it needs to be done in front of a MC.


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## jld

Read my signature, Z. Walking away when your wife is emotional is contraindicated.


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## lifeistooshort

Why are you not able to stand your ground and insist on continuing a discussion without yelling?

Yelling is a bullying tactic that causes people to withdraw. 

It is not a tactic of a leader.

It also diverts the conversation away from what might be legitimate issues you want to address to the fact that you're yelling. It's counterproductive on many levels.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Holdingontoit

turnera2 said:


> If you really wanted to solve some of these recurring issues, you would work harder to be brave enough to withstand her withering scorn and discuss the issue ANYWAY.
> 
> And if you really can't discuss anything with her, it needs to be done in front of a MC.


Turnera, I think this goes back to what Mem posted to me. Does Zdog actually have any ability to demand change? Which gets back to whether he is willing to risk divorce. If not, then he might as well drop the issue. Even though he is not happy and it is not resolved. Because it is crystal clear that his wife has no intention of resolving the issue to his satisfaction. At least not unless and until he is willing to leave over it.

I am not willing to leave over the lack of sex. So I have dropped the issue. Even though I am not pleased with this "resolution". In Mem's terms, I don't have any "positional authority" to "put my foot down" if I am not willing to risk divorce.

Zdog has to decide what he is wiling to accept and what price he is willing to pay to get what he wants. It might be that he is forced to accept an unsatisfying sex life because he is not willing to pay the price to be with a woman who desires him and who is connected to her own sexuality. And you know what? That is not a totally irrational decision. After all, a man weak and self-loathing enough to accept this kind of situation for long periods of time tends not to be very attractive to women who have a healthy connection to their sexuality. So, unless Zdog is willing to do the IC needed to get himself to a place where he loves and respects himself, maybe staying with the mother of his children is the best he can hope for even if she has no willingness to work on their sex life.


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## jld

@Holdingontoit

Any "positional authority," or any genuine (not imposed) authority at all for that matter, comes from trust. And trust, like respect, is earned.

Z, what are you doing to earn her trust?


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## lifeistooshort

jld said:


> @Holdingontoit
> 
> Any "positional authority," or any genuine (not imposed) authority at all for that matter, comes from trust. And trust, like respect, is earned.
> 
> Z, what are you doing to earn her trust?


Yelling creates fear and erodes trust. 

I'm getting the feeling he yells a lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedTex

lifeistooshort said:


> Yelling creates fear and erodes trust.
> 
> I'm getting the feeling he yells a lot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would suspect that it's a vicious cycle. Doesn't appear she is willing to acknowledge reality. The way I see it, ZDog is her SugarDaddy without benefits. He tries to think of implications of not paying on her student loan. She is focused not on excelling in a paying job in her field but on largely using her education to show-off her abilities in a time-sucking volunteer post.

She's a taker, and ZDog is her patsy. Even if ZDog did start out with patient conversation, it may have progressed - as JLD said - to the "yelling a lot." But I'm not sure if this in an indictment of ZDog or whether we should buy him a beer and say "about time you stood up for yourself."


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## jld

MarriedTex said:


> I would suspect that it's a vicious cycle. Doesn't appear she is willing to acknowledge reality. The way I see it, ZDog is her SugarDaddy without benefits. He tries to think of implications of not paying on her student loan. She is focused not on excelling in a paying job in her field but on largely using her education to show-off her abilities in a time-sucking volunteer post.
> 
> She's a taker, and ZDog is her patsy. Even if ZDog did start out with patient conversation, it may have progressed - as JLD said - to the "yelling a lot." But I'm not sure if this in an indictment of ZDog or whether we should buy him a beer and say "about time you stood up for yourself."


As I said what?

I see no beer buying occasion here. And he did not drive that distance last night for *her* benefit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Holdingontoit

And jld's question could easily be asked in the other direction. What is Z2 doing to earn Zdog's trust? Seems the only thing she can be trusted to do is take advantage of him. I agree he should stop yelling. I agree he should create a safe environment for them to discuss their issues. But I disagree that it is reasonable to believe that, given a safe environment, Z2 will miraculously show herself to be willing to address zdog's needs. The fact that he is behaving badly does not imply that if he behaved better, he would get better results. He might simply behave more politely in the face of being told "no" again and again.

Remember, "safe" is not just the absence of yelling. Safe means she feels secure that he will remain married to her even if she admits the truth as to her intentions. It may not be possible for him to provide that level of safety, even if he verbally reassures her of his intention to remain married "no matter what", because she may refuse to accept that he is that foolish and masochistic. She may have a higher opinion of him than he has of himself. She may believe that if she admits the truth, any sane husband would leave her. In that circumstance, it may not be within Zdog's power to convince her to have an open and honest conversation. The only way to convince her will be to stay for decades despite the lack of sex, and she won't feel comfortable being truthful until the time has passed.

That is, of course, the story of my marriage. Zdog, if you aren't sufficiently terrified to take action now, I fear you are, like me, a lost cause. Please prove me wrong.

FWIW, my wife cannot understand why I stay married to her. She knows I desire sex and yet I refuse to have sex with her. She knows I prefer women with large breasts and she just had hers removed and does not intend to reconstruct them to anything like their former glory (I know, crass phrasing and please understand cancer is tragic and what she has gone through is horrible and I am not trying to minimize it and I really don't care what kind of reconstruction she does or does not have - her body and completely her choice and anyway I don't intend to ever have sex with her so no incentive to care what her breasts look or feel like, just glad she is healthy). She knows I am not satisfied and yet I treat her with patience and kindness. Many of our friends and acquaintances are getting divorced as their kids leave home, ours are already away, and yet I am staying with her. It does not compute to her. There is no way I could have convinced her back when we did MC that I would still be here over a decade later if we had as little sex as we have had over the past decade. There is no way I could have convinced her that I would be as supportive during her cancer treatment and recovery as I have been. She would have figured that I was lying to get he to admit the "truth" and then once she admitted it, I would be out the door. She would never have been willing to compromise to meet my needs no matter how polite and calm I remained (and during 8 years of MC and ST I did overwhelmingly remain calm and polite despite zero progress). The funny thing is, now that I stayed and remained faithful and steadfast, I think she finally believes I will stay "no matter what". And she might even be willing to be more available sexually. But she waited too long. I am now more interested in being spiteful than I am in creating a better sex life. 

Z2 would be well advised to start compromising with Zdog before it passes the "point of no return". Because when he "snaps," he might not decide to leave her. He might decide to stay. She might foolishly believe that his staying is always and everywhere better for her than his leaving. She would be wrong.


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## lifeistooshort

MarriedTex said:


> I would suspect that it's a vicious cycle. Doesn't appear she is willing to acknowledge reality. The way I see it, ZDog is her SugarDaddy without benefits. He tries to think of implications of not paying on her student loan. She is focused not on excelling in a paying job in her field but on largely using her education to show-off her abilities in a time-sucking volunteer post.
> 
> She's a taker, and ZDog is her patsy. Even if ZDog did start out with patient conversation, it may have progressed - as JLD said - to the "yelling a lot." But I'm not sure if this in an indictment of ZDog or whether we should buy him a beer and say "about time you stood up for yourself."


How exactly is he a sugar daddy? She's home raising kids and running with house while he's gone all week. She's not exactly at the spa getting be nails done regularly. 

I'm having a hard time understanding how she's a taker and Z is a martyr. Yes she should be be volunteering a little less, but he's hardly involved in the day to day runnng of the family and according to him they're broke. 

Hardly a sugar daddy. 

Yelling is bullying. Period.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

Great post, life. I don't see any "sugar" there, either.

Holding, maybe in front of an MC Mrs Z might agree to take on more responsibility in the marriage. Absent that (and maybe even with it), I think Z is on his own here. My advice is geared towards that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedTex

jld said:


> Great post, life. I don't see any "sugar" there, either.
> 
> Holding, maybe in front of an MC Mrs Z might agree to take on more responsibility in the marriage. Absent that (and maybe even with it), I think Z is on his own here. My advice is geared towards that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"sugar daddy" obviously not the right term to describe this situation. My mistake.

But the facts are that they are in trouble financially - a situation complicated by HER student loans that she is choosing to ignore. She basically ignores a fundamental threat to the family's long-term well-being to focus on PTO volunteer work. You can say she's "doing it for the kids." But - if that were really the case - she'd be moving heaven and earth to solidify the family's financial foundation. Instead, she's off playing "Super PTO Mom" - I think - primarily for her own ego kibbles.

I see a pattern where she takes his contributions for granted and leaves ZDog to handle the stresses of dealing with the niggling details of making life work day-to-day. Yelling is not right, and is not a proper tool for building a strong relationship. What I'm saying is let's have some empathy for ZDog. He's in a no win situation and grasping for something - anything - that can make him heard in the situation. I'm not saying his approach is right. I'm saying that it illustrates the depth of the relationship hole in which he now finds himself.


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## Holdingontoit

lifeistooshort said:


> How exactly is he a sugar daddy? She's home raising kids and running with house while he's gone all week. She's not exactly at the spa getting be nails dome regularly.


In the current economy, for most parents with small children both parents have to work outside the home so household bills get paid AND then they have to tend to the home in their "spare time". Having one spouse who provides a sufficient income that pretty much all the household bills get paid so spouse #2 can attend to the house and kids full time is a luxury these days. Especially for a person with huge student loans who typically would be forced to take the highest paying full time job they could obtain in order to both make their student loan payments and contribute toward household expenses. Maybe Zdog does not provide enough income that Z2 can spend her days at the spa, but he does pay pretty much all the household bills himself and allows his spouse to be a SAH. And kids eventually grow up and need less tending and SAH spouses tend to have ALOT more free time on their hands in later years than full time working spouses.

No one is saying Zdog should keep yelling. It undercuts and distracts from his position. He should be calm and gracious at all times, to show that he can do what is required even though it is hugely emotionally charged for him. After all, that is what he is asking Z2 to do regarding sex.

But some of us are suspicious whether Z2 has any intention or ability to compromise with Zdog even if he manages to be calm and gracious. Or even if a MC is present to mediate the discussion. Sometimes the main problem is the manner is which the HD presents the issue. And sometimes the problem is that the LD is unwilling to compromise and uses arguments about communication style to distract from that bottom line reality. The HD should always eliminate the yelling and other unhelpful behavior to remove these items as sign of weakness and a distraction. But do not be fooled into thinking that this will always or even in a majority of cases resolve the mismatch. It simply removes one of what is typically a number of obstacles.


----------



## MEM2020

Life,
Now this one is as important as it is clear cut. 
- Yelling is a universal sign of anger. 
- Anger is a secondary emotion that is based on either hurt or fear. 

And people who are often/easily frightened are perceived as weak. 

And weakness - is a near universal turn off. If your sex life is bad, the very first thing you do - is stop broadcasting weakness to everyone within shouting distance. 





lifeistooshort said:


> Yelling creates fear and erodes trust.
> 
> I'm getting the feeling he yells a lot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Positional authority - has nothing to do with trust.

The following examples of positional authority are based on being the boss at work:
- You can fire someone
- Or dock their pay if they are late to work (based on applicable labor laws)
- Approval of certain types of actions (raises, customer refund, etc)

Everything else - power wise - comes from:
- Relationship (typically a blend of reciprocity and trust)
- Charisma (which is a terrific substitute for an established relationship - when first dealing with others)
- Demonstrable subject matter expertise 
- Competence: This is your overall professional capability level (factors in subject expertise, raw intelligence, discipline, organizational skills etc)

The thing about positional authority is that, by itself it's very limited. 

If you think about bosses you liked and respected - they brought out your best - not due to their title - but because of all the other stuff 

I'm gonna pick on Far for a minute. I bet his staff - are willing to half kill themselves doing what he asks? 

Why?

He has super strong reciprocity wiring, and he's fair. Wouldn't ask them to do something he isn't able or willing to do. Has high standards - and empathy. 




jld said:


> @Holdingontoit
> 
> Any "positional authority," or any genuine (not imposed) authority at all for that matter, comes from trust. And trust, like respect, is earned.
> 
> Z, what are you doing to earn her trust?


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> Positional authority - has nothing to do with trust.
> 
> The following examples of positional authority are based on being the boss at work:
> - You can fire someone
> - Or dock their pay if they are late to work (based on applicable labor laws)
> - Approval of certain types of actions (raises, customer refund, etc)
> 
> Everything else - power wise - comes from:
> - Relationship (typically a blend of reciprocity and trust)
> - Charisma (which is a terrific substitute for an established relationship - when first dealing with others)
> - Demonstrable subject matter expertise
> - Competence: This is your overall professional capability level (factors in subject expertise, raw intelligence, discipline, organizational skills etc)
> 
> The thing about positional authority is that, by itself it's very limited.
> 
> If you think about bosses you liked and respected - they brought out your best - not due to their title - but because of all the other stuff
> 
> I'm gonna pick on Far for a minute. I bet his staff - are willing to half kill themselves doing what he asks?
> 
> Why?
> 
> He has super strong reciprocity wiring, and he's fair. Wouldn't ask them to do something he isn't able or willing to do. Has high standards - and empathy.


By positional authority in your post to Z, you were referring to his role as husband, correct?


----------



## lifeistooshort

MEM11363 said:


> Life,
> Now this one is as important as it is clear cut.
> - Yelling is a universal sign of anger.
> - Anger is a secondary emotion that is based on either hurt or fear.
> 
> And people who are often/easily frightened are perceived as weak.
> 
> And weakness - is a near universal turn off. If your sex life is bad, the very first thing you do - is stop broadcasting weakness to everyone within shouting distance.


Correct. And when hb yells, which isn't often, it scares the hvll out of me and tells me I have to protect myself. 

Why would I want to either have sex with that or go out of my way to make that happy? It tells me that he isn't worthy of my efforts. 

I won't lie and say I've never yelled at my kids but it's not common. And I can't remember the last time I did it. 

I've never yelled at hb. I don't need to in order to address my issue, but if I did it would be counterproductive because he'd see me as a tantrum throwing brat.

And rightly so. 

Yelling and bullying invokes fear and lowers respect.

If you bully an employee you'll only get them to do barely enough to stay employed, but they certainly won't go out of their way for you. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

This is also where gender matters - for purely physical reasons. 

The dynamic can be very different - when the physically larger / stronger person is yelling. Because that can create a fear of physical safety. Not so good for building trust. 






lifeistooshort said:


> Correct. And when hb yells, which isn't often, it scares the hvll out of me and tells me I have to protect myself.
> 
> Why would I want to either have sex with that or go out of my way to make that happy? It tells me that he isn't worthy of my efforts.
> 
> I won't lie and say I've never yelled at my kids but it's not common. And I can't remember the last time I did it.
> 
> I've never yelled at hb. I don't need to in order to address my issue, but if I did it would be counterproductive because he'd see me as a tantrum throwing brat.
> 
> And rightly so.
> 
> Yelling and bullying invokes fear and lowers respect.
> 
> If you bully an employee you'll only get them to do barely enough to stay employed, but they certainly won't go out of their way for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Primarily to his role as breadwinner. If he 'fires Z2' as his wife, that cuts her 'salary' as his wife. And over time, that 'salary' goes away.

Child support of course remains. 

Similar to firing an employee who has a large severance package.

And I am not trying to be clever, or sarcastic. 

Merely constructing the closest analogy possible. 

The only time you have a large amount of positional authority, is when you are paying someone a LOT MORE than anyone else will be willing to. Even then, it is best used lightly. 




jld said:


> By positional authority in your post to Z, you were referring to his role as husband, correct?


----------



## farsidejunky

MEM11363 said:


> Positional authority - has nothing to do with trust.
> 
> The following examples of positional authority are based on being the boss at work:
> - You can fire someone
> - Or dock their pay if they are late to work (based on applicable labor laws)
> - Approval of certain types of actions (raises, customer refund, etc)
> 
> Everything else - power wise - comes from:
> - Relationship (typically a blend of reciprocity and trust)
> - Charisma (which is a terrific substitute for an established relationship - when first dealing with others)
> - Demonstrable subject matter expertise
> - Competence: This is your overall professional capability level (factors in subject expertise, raw intelligence, discipline, organizational skills etc)
> 
> The thing about positional authority is that, by itself it's very limited.
> 
> If you think about bosses you liked and respected - they brought out your best - not due to their title - but because of all the other stuff
> 
> I'm gonna pick on Far for a minute. I bet his staff - are willing to half kill themselves doing what he asks?
> 
> Why?
> 
> He has super strong reciprocity wiring, and he's fair. Wouldn't ask them to do something he isn't able or willing to do. Has high standards - and empathy.


When I _used to_ have staff, yes...lol

I found myself in harms way defending their actions when what my superiors were asking for was unreasonable. I had little patience for it, and it held me back from promotion, but I could live with myself in doing so.

Thanks, brother.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



MEM11363 said:


> Primarily to his role as breadwinner. If he 'fires Z2' as his wife, that cuts her 'salary' as his wife. And over time, that 'salary' goes away.
> 
> Child support of course remains.
> 
> Similar to firing an employee who has a large severance package.
> 
> And I am not trying to be clever, or sarcastic.
> 
> Merely constructing the closest analogy possible.
> 
> The only time you have a large amount of positional authority, is when you are paying someone a LOT MORE than anyone else will be willing to. Even then, it is best used lightly.


This is 1/2 of the equation.

The other half is how much value the employee perceives they actually have.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## john117

jld said:


> Read my signature, Z. Walking away when your wife is emotional is contraindicated.


Subject to the magnitude of emotions being released, and their level of toxicity...


----------



## MEM2020

But in a marriage - it's even more complicated - because most married folk don't WANT to be single. 

So it's a symmetrical termination. I'm firing myself as much as I'm firing you. 

Closest business analogy is a 2 person partnership. I do sales, my partner does operations. 

So now we have the following matrix driving positional authority:
1. My estimate of your value/replacement cost 
2. My estimate of my own value/replacement cost 
3. Your estimate of my value
4. Your estimate of your own value

In this case, Zdogs weight lowers (2) and (3)






farsidejunky said:


> This is 1/2 if the equation.
> 
> The other half is how much value the employee perceives they actually have.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> Primarily to his role as breadwinner. If he 'fires Z2' as his wife, that cuts her 'salary' as his wife. And over time, that 'salary' goes away.
> 
> Child support of course remains.
> 
> Similar to firing an employee who has a large severance package.
> 
> And I am not trying to be clever, or sarcastic.
> 
> Merely constructing the closest analogy possible.
> 
> The only time you have a large amount of positional authority, is when you are paying someone a LOT MORE than anyone else will be willing to. Even then, it is best used lightly.


He has positional authority as a husband, and yes, it may be largely owing to his role as provider. He has mentioned setting limits on household spending, and his wife has complied. I think he could build on that. 

It would mostly come from "soft" authority rather than "hard" authority. (Not sure how much hard authority there is in modern marriage anyway.) And soft authority is earned. It is based on trust.

I think if Z could show his wife not only a plan for paying off her debt, but how doing so will benefit the whole family, that could go a ways towards getting her onboard with it.

And learning to control his anger, and reach out to her in empathy instead, would greatly improve his soft authority, his influence. I think it could restart his sex life as well.


----------



## MEM2020

The ultimate power move in any marriage - is to synchronize your partner to YOUR emotional state. 

I am dead certain you've done this many times with your daughters John.  They start out anxious/upset/angry. 

You start out calm. You synchronize them to YOU, not the other way around. 

And that ability - is prized beyond gold - by most partners. 

And ummm - the more flipped out they are - the more valuable you are as a their partner - if you can synchronize them.

The odd thing is that on a cognitive level - you KNOW - that most of J2's meltdowns are not about you. Not about you. 

And if you knew that in your heart - with equal certainty - you'd view and respond to her melt downs - same way you did with your kids when they were little. 





john117 said:


> Subject to the magnitude of emotions being released, and their level of toxicity...


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> The ultimate power move in any marriage - is to synchronize your partner to YOUR emotional state.
> 
> I am dead certain you've done this many times with your daughters John. They start out anxious/upset/angry.
> 
> You start out calm. You synchronize them to YOU, not the other way around.
> 
> And that ability - is prized beyond gold - by most partners.
> 
> And ummm - the more flipped out they are - the more valuable you are as a their partner - if you can synchronize them.
> 
> The odd thing is that on a cognitive level - you KNOW - that most of J2's meltdowns are not about you. Not about you.
> 
> And if you knew that in your heart - with equal certainty - you'd view and respond to her melt downs - same way you did when your kids were little.


Why _do_ you get so upset by her, John? Are you seeking validation from her, like they were talking about in the other thread?


----------



## MEM2020

And yes - I get the toxicity thing. 

She knows what you are maybe not good at. So she plays the: you svck because .... And ...

M2 will say: You really svck at .... random draw from my flaw pile

Thing is, I know and believe that this isn't about that. Only reason M2 is saying 'unkind but true' stuff is she's trying to synchronize me to her. 

Only rational move in that situation is to agree. 

Reason this is hard for most folks - they are already tense/anxious or worried about there own stuff. 

If I'm already tense and M2 melts down - that doesn't go well. 




john117 said:


> Subject to the magnitude of emotions being released, and their level of toxicity...


----------



## MEM2020

There's a big difference between:

1. a need for validation.
And
2. a need to stop someone from trying to jam invalidation down your throat. 

You and Dug are going to friends house for dinner. You put on a new dress. He says nothing about it. If you need (1), that might feel bad. 

But imagine - during dinner - he says something negative about how the dress looks on you. That's (2).

For most folks - those two things are very different. 





jld said:


> Why _do_ you get so upset by her, John? Are you seeking validation from her, like they were talking about in the other thread?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

"yelling" is not always bullying

There is a time and place for effective yelling.

And in a way that gains respect... for example....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOllz6eGbXI



There comes a time to put someone in their place. 

Z2 has been there done that in spades.

The "here we go again" is contemptuous sarcasm and VERY disrespectful. Makes me wonder what else she is flippant about that flies in the face of Zdog. She should have been put in her place a LONG time ago.


----------



## Holdingontoit

To me, initiating sex is like my wife asking me "do these pants make my butt look huge?". Usually, if she asks me that question, I say "no, you look great." Whether she does or not. Because she likes to hear that I think she looks great. And usually I do think she looks great (part of why I married her) so I am typically being honest. Occasionally I might say "those are OK, but I like the black ones better". Because sometimes one pair of pants or another is very unflattering and it is more important for me to be honest than to flatter her. If I am feeling especially playful I might say "no, your huge butt is what makes your butt look huge, no ice cream for you today". All of those answers are well tolerated. But suppose the overwhelming percentage of the time when she asks me how she looks in an outfit, I replied with something like "yes, you look fat. I can't believe you asked me AGAIN. What did you think I would say? Have you looked in the mirror lately?" Even a person with decent self-confidence might eventually find themselves feeling invalidated if they keep getting told how ugly they look no matter what outfit they try on.

Like I said, me initiating sex is asking her the question "how do I look?". If she keeps telling me "ugly", my sense of self-worth is going to take a hit. If she keeps hitting me, I am either going to stop asking entirely or leave her to find someone who either likes the way I look in the clothes I prefer to wear or can find it within themselves to be gracious when I ask. I do not think that mechanism is all that hard to understand.

I agree it would be great if the HD can self-validate and keep telling themselves "I look great" even when their spouse keeps saying "you look ugly to me". And I think the ability to self-validate is itself an attractive quality and constantly asking for validation is an unattractive quality. So a HD who needs lots of validation would be well advised to learn to self-validate rather than relying on their partner to obtain their "fix". But at some point you realize your partner thinks you are ugly and the effort required to look good in their eyes is beyond your ability to achieve or considered not worth the effort.


----------



## turnera

Holdingontoit said:


> Turnera, I think this goes back to what Mem posted to me. Does Zdog actually have any ability to demand change? Which gets back to whether he is willing to risk divorce. If not, then he might as well drop the issue. Even though he is not happy and it is not resolved. Because it is crystal clear that his wife has no intention of resolving the issue to his satisfaction. At least not unless and until he is willing to leave over it.
> 
> I am not willing to leave over the lack of sex. So I have dropped the issue. Even though I am not pleased with this "resolution". In Mem's terms, I don't have any "positional authority" to "put my foot down" if I am not willing to risk divorce.
> 
> Zdog has to decide what he is wiling to accept and what price he is willing to pay to get what he wants. It might be that he is forced to accept an unsatisfying sex life because he is not willing to pay the price to be with a woman who desires him and who is connected to her own sexuality. And you know what? That is not a totally irrational decision. After all, a man weak and self-loathing enough to accept this kind of situation for long periods of time tends not to be very attractive to women who have a healthy connection to their sexuality. So, unless Zdog is willing to do the IC needed to get himself to a place where he loves and respects himself, maybe staying with the mother of his children is the best he can hope for even if she has no willingness to work on their sex life.


Well, take the kid's rules thing. If my spouse completely refuses to discuss any situation in which our child would need to be disciplined, as soon as that person made it clear they wouldn't discuss it, I would then say 'My priority is to raise my child with structure so that he/she can grow up into a happy healthy adult. I'm not telling you that you have to go along with rules and consequences, but I fully intend to. Else I would be shirking my duty as a parent. Now, I'd like for you to be on board with me about this, to sit down and iron out the circumstances so we're both on the same page, but if you're going to refuse to discuss this with me, I'm going to move forward and do it anyway. I hope you'll step up so this looks like something we both endorse, but if you choose not to, that's your prerogative. I'll let you know how it goes.'

But he never even gets that far. 

And then brings it up again a month later and they both become even more frustrated (which also feeds into the kid's angst).

I learned in IC that just because my spouse won't cooperate, it doesn't mean I have to just sit on my hands and wait. That I am JUST as responsible for raising my child or making a decision about the house or whatever, and once I give him the offer of joining me in the decision making process and he refuses, that's on him. I'm getting it done anyway.


----------



## MarriedTex

ZDog377 said:


> Just wanted to apologize for the rant yesterday. It just seemed like things were coming to a head. Fridge was acting up, guy is coming this week for home equity appraisal, just a bunch of things at once. I will hopefully get some unexpected time at home tomorrow night with only one of the three kids. I'm planning on spending some one on one time together if things work out.


In the context of the "yelling" argument, we also need to keep this earlier ZDog post in mind.

He apologized for something that was actually pretty minimal. Maybe when he self - reports "yelling," it's actually does not rise to the level of "yelling" as some other posters are imagining as a knock-down, drag out screaming match. Maybe "yelling" for ZDog is just making a point with some intensity. We're not there, and we're relying on his self-reporting in this regard.

That's why I'm lobbying for empathy with ZDog in this case. I don't think it's best to tell him to go sit in a corner and be quiet. He's more of a "Nice Guy" in the bad sense paired with a woman more than willing to take advantage of - and take for granted - the positive attributes that he brings to the table.

If he doesn't speak up for himself, he will wind up where I was in first 15 years of marriage. From the outset, I agreed with wife that I should never raise my voice or "yell" because it scared my wife. Over time, this evolved into a dynamic where I could never address issues that concerned me because it would be characterized under the "yelling" bucket (even when it was not.) Meanwhile, when wife got mad, she could still hit me with passive aggressive silent treatment (sometimes for days at a time.) 

We got to a spot where she could steamroll me with her preferred means of communicating (or not communicating) displeasure via the silent treatment where I had no venue for getting my issues on the table. That lead to a very imbalanced relationship for quite awhile until I learned and began applying some of the principles of NMMNG.

In short, the board members who say that yelling is not right are absolutely right. However, you must be cognizant that your advice could actually wind up doing ZDog more harm than good, depending on how the realities of his situation line up when compared with other people's perceptions of what "yelling" is.


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> Why _do_ you get so upset by her, John? Are you seeking validation from her, like they were talking about in the other thread?


My guess is that he's stuck in Nice Guy land and he hates himself for it and wishes he had the cajones to just say what he wants to do and then do it. But he doesn't, he lets her drive the situation every time, so he lashes out in frustration - at himself.

Doesn't make him a bad person, just uneducated in the ways that a therapist could help him learn to better handle the situations. Or even reading books.


----------



## MEM2020

Blossom (love that name)
I absolutely agree - that: here we go again 

Is somewhere between disrespectful and outright contempt. 

I also think it's an honest (if ugly) truth that Zdog communicates in a way that Z2 finds emotionally draining. 

For example - he will get NO traction on a structure to discipline the kids UNTIL he makes it about SOLELY about the kids. Not about what he wants as the 'man of the house'. But what is truly best for THEM.

For instance: If we teach our son that he can do whatever he wants whenever he wants to he will have a very hard time getting and keeping a job. I am seriously worried about that. We both should be.

And stick to that theme, in a calm but firm way until Z2 asks him what he thinks they should do. 

That is when he pulls out a printed list of consequences. 

After he showers, he can do XYZ 

Sounds better than:

He cannot do XYZ until he showers

And - at the top should be some paragraph explaining that they WANT him to have a happy, fun life. Said outcome requires a job, which requires some basic rule following. Getting good at that will help him get a good job - that pays for games and computers and other fun toys...





Blossom Leigh said:


> "yelling" is not always bullying
> 
> There is a time and place for effective yelling.
> 
> And in a way that gains respect... for example....
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOllz6eGbXI
> 
> 
> 
> There comes a time to put someone in their place.
> 
> Z2 has been there done that in spades.
> 
> The "here we go again" is contemptuous sarcasm and VERY disrespectful. Makes me wonder what else she is flippant about that flies in the face of Zdog. She should have been put in her place a LONG time ago.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

MEM11363 said:


> Blossom (love that name)
> I absolutely agree - that: here we go again
> 
> Is somewhere between disrespectful and outright contempt.
> 
> I also think it's an honest (if ugly) truth that Zdog communicates in a way that Z2 finds emotionally draining.
> 
> For example - he will get NO traction on a structure to discipline the kids UNTIL he makes it about SOLELY about the kids. Not about what he wants as the 'man of the house'. But what is truly best for THEM.
> 
> For instance: If we teach our son that he can do whatever he wants whenever he wants to he will have a very hard time getting and keeping a job. I am seriously worried about that. We both should be.
> 
> And stick to that theme, in a calm but firm way until Z2 asks him what he thinks they should do.
> 
> That is when he pulls out a printed list of consequences.
> 
> After he showers, he can do XYZ
> 
> Sounds better than:
> 
> He cannot do XYZ until he showers
> 
> And - at the top should be some paragraph explaining that they WANT him to have a happy, fun life. Said outcome requires a job, which requires some basic rule following. Getting good at that will help him get a good job - that pays for games and computers and other fun toys...


Agree. Any behavior needs to be "for" the family even if it is strategic yelling. He has to be very cognizant of what kind of yelling is prudent and ONLY use it in that manner. Otherwise he just turns into a dump truck, dumping garbage all over his family.

That's what my H was doing until I had a Julia Sugarbaker moment with him. :wink2:


----------



## MEM2020

Blossom,

What we agree on - is that Zdog needs a mechanism for showing disapproval. 

Volume shows that I'm losing MY self control. If you want to teach a kid discipline, you yourself need to demonstrate self discipline. 

A sharp tone of voice is incredibly effective. Not loud. Sharp. 

Kids respond to it very well. It needs to be used sparingly and connect to consequences. 

But until he gets in synch with Z2 - this is a losing battle. 




Blossom Leigh said:


> Agree. Any behavior needs to be "for" the family even if it is strategic yelling. He has to be very cognizant of what kind of yelling is prudent and ONLY use it in that manner. Otherwise he just turns into a dump truck, dumping garbage all over his family.
> 
> That's what my H was doing until I had a Julia Sugarbaker moment with him. :wink2:


----------



## Blossom Leigh

MEM11363 said:


> Blossom,
> 
> What we agree on - is that Zdog needs a mechanism for showing disapproval.
> 
> Volume shows that I'm losing MY self control. If you want to teach a kid discipline, you yourself need to demonstrate self discipline.
> 
> A sharp tone of voice is incredibly effective. Not loud. Sharp.
> 
> Kids respond to it very well. It needs to be used sparingly and connect to consequences.
> 
> But until he gets in synch with Z2 - this is a losing battle.


Mostly sharp, firm... yes.

But the moment my H was being hugely disrespectful and yelling at me.... I in turn with tremendous respect but an extremely firm and loud tone, which was louder than him at the time, trumped his energy by standing so firm in the truth of the matter that it totally shut him up and he realized he was totally out of line. I was exceptionally specific with my command of the situation. It was a "few good men" type situation.... except I look like Suzanne Sugarbaker....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtpOtFIEkbs

Volume doesn't always mean we are losing self control, sometimes it means we are taking control.


----------



## ZDog377

MarriedTex said:


> In the context of the "yelling" argument, we also need to keep this earlier ZDog post in mind.
> 
> He apologized for something that was actually pretty minimal. Maybe when he self - reports "yelling," it's actually does not rise to the level of "yelling" as some other posters are imagining as a knock-down, drag out screaming match. Maybe "yelling" for ZDog is just making a point with some intensity. We're not there, and we're relying on his self-reporting in this regard.
> 
> That's why I'm lobbying for empathy with ZDog in this case. I don't think it's best to tell him to go sit in a corner and be quiet. He's more of a "Nice Guy" in the bad sense paired with a woman more than willing to take advantage of - and take for granted - the positive attributes that he brings to the table.
> 
> If he doesn't speak up for himself, he will wind up where I was in first 15 years of marriage. From the outset, I agreed with wife that I should never raise my voice or "yell" because it scared my wife. Over time, this evolved into a dynamic where I could never address issues that concerned me because it would be characterized under the "yelling" bucket (even when it was not.) Meanwhile, when wife got mad, she could still hit me with passive aggressive silent treatment (sometimes for days at a time.)
> 
> We got to a spot where she could steamroll me with her preferred means of communicating (or not communicating) displeasure via the silent treatment where I had no venue for getting my issues on the table. That lead to a very imbalanced relationship for quite awhile until I learned and began applying some of the principles of NMMNG.
> 
> In short, the board members who say that yelling is not right are absolutely right. However, you must be cognizant that your advice could actually wind up doing ZDog more harm than good, depending on how the realities of his situation line up when compared with other people's perceptions of what "yelling" is.


I'll be the first to admit I'm probably harder on myself than I should be. I'll admit I could be a better father/husband. I wish I could do more stuff with the kids and stuff with her but I'm rolling with what I can right now. Granted last night wasn't for her benefit but I told her I missed her and that I was coming home to spend time with her. I wasn't bent out of shape things didn't happen last night. I was happy I got to spend time with her. 

Maybe its how I was brought up. I feel like I had more respect for people back then. It was like a kick in the stomach when he told me he felt we treated him terrible. It also hurts when she tells me that I don't know how good I have it. 

We will see how things go when she starts her new job. She's only working 15 or so hours a week, one of those days being a Saturday. Its not going to bring in much extra income but every little bit helps.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

What do you think she has in mind when she tells you "how good you've got it?"


----------



## farsidejunky

Blossom Leigh said:


> What do you think she has in mind when she tells you "how good you've got it?"


I have my suspicions.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## lifeistooshort

Suggesting that yelling is counterproductive and bullying is hardly suggesting he go to a corner and be quiet.

It's quite possible to make your point and command respect without yelling. Suggesting that one should simply out yell the other is going to be very counterproductive. 

That's like two little kids trying to outdo each other. 

If my hb yells at me I'm not going to out yell him, I'm going to walk away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

I have never heard anyone recommend yelling at kids before.

The size difference between most grown men and a child would surely make the yelling frightening.


----------



## MEM2020

Yes

Big person yelling at smaller person/people is different than little people yelling at big person. 




lifeistooshort said:


> Suggesting that yelling is counterproductive and bullying is hardly suggesting he go to a corner and be quiet.
> 
> It's quite possible to make your point and command respect without yelling. Suggesting that one should simply out yell the other is going to be very counterproductive.
> 
> That's like two little kids trying to outdo each other.
> 
> If my hb yells at me I'm not going to out yell him, I'm going to walk away.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

farsidejunky said:


> I have my suspicions.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I'm going with the fact that she's staying home with the kids and I'm out working. I think she's mentioned once or twice that I'm able to go out and do things on my own too. When I'm home I go to the gym every morning during the week with my friend. We grab a beer now and then too, but I always make sure she has nothing going on and maybe I'm gone for an hour.


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## turnera

How often do you take the kids and go somewhere and tell her to go have fun?


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## ZDog377

turnera2 said:


> How often do you take the kids and go somewhere and tell her to go have fun?


I'd say at least twice a month. It's hard taking all three because the oldest doesn't think I go anywhere fun. The other problem is that she doesn't want to do anything fun for herself. That's why I feel I can't complain about the school board meetings and stuff.


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## turnera

Then you don't have a right to complain. Excuses. Mothers NEED free time away from YOUR expectations, the KIDS' expectations, and school/family/friend expectations.

When DD25 was growing up, I kept asking DH for just ONE thing for my birthday or for Mother's Day: for him to take DD away and leave me alone at home. Just so I had NO obligations, even for a few hours. 

And it's 'hard' to take care of 3 kids for a few hours? How do you think SHE feels? She's responsible for them 95% of their lives.


----------



## ZDog377

turnera2 said:


> Then you don't have a right to complain. Excuses. Mothers NEED free time away from YOUR expectations, the KIDS' expectations, and school/family/friend expectations.
> 
> When DD25 was growing up, I kept asking DH for just ONE thing for my birthday or for Mother's Day: for him to take DD away and leave me alone at home. Just so I had NO obligations, even for a few hours.
> 
> And it's 'hard' to take care of 3 kids for a few hours? How do you think SHE feels? She's responsible for them 95% of their lives.


I'm not saying I never take all three of them. It just depends what is going on.....


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Why _do_ you get so upset by her, John? Are you seeking validation from her, like they were talking about in the other thread?


I don't get upset any more. I simply don't care.

It's an amazing state of mind. My kids are like that as well. She wants DD2 to go to the neuro surgery route (let's see the MCAT results first People 😂) to one-up a friend's kid who is a renowned plastic surgeon. So she starts talking to DD2 like she's a slacker for waiting to see what she'll do. Smile and nod, MEM. Smile and nod. 

You can't get angry with people like those anymore than you can with my grandfather who had Alzheimer's. We have all learned to be stoic about it and even make a bit of fun about it all (part time neurosurgeon??).

At this point I would like for her to realize exactly how off center she is and seek treatment for her own sake. No validation of any kind. We are all past that too.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Did I miss something jld... Who is recommending yelling at kids...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

turnera2 said:


> My guess is that he's stuck in Nice Guy land and he hates himself for it and wishes he had the cajones to just say what he wants to do and then do it. But he doesn't, he lets her drive the situation every time, so he lashes out in frustration - at himself.
> 
> Doesn't make him a bad person, just uneducated in the ways that a therapist could help him learn to better handle the situations. Or even reading books.


I can't see myself getting upset with a mentally ill person. Does she drive the situation? Hardly. Do I lash out? Nope. The magic word is indifference.

I told her what I'm planning on doing. A few years ago she had the mental bandwidth to process it for what it is. Right now she's got her rose-colored glasses on and nothing is stopping her 

When we had a therapist involved, her diagnosis for her was full blown BPD and her assessment was that it's likely not fixable. Her assessment of me was that I was remarkably normal given the circumstances, if a bit stubborn. 

I've taken enough general psychology courses to know what's going on, Turnera... I do admit guilty of a bit of morbid curiosity and maybe some compassion, but I do know what's going on around me. I've read every book there is, and found most of them marginally useful.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> I'm going with the fact that she's staying home with the kids and I'm out working. I think she's mentioned once or twice that I'm able to go out and do things on my own too. When I'm home I go to the gym every morning during the week with my friend. We grab a beer now and then too, but I always make sure she has nothing going on and maybe I'm gone for an hour.


Do you feel she understands what your heart needs?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> Do you feel she understands what your heart needs?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll be honest, there are times I'm not even 100% sure what I need. I feel used to an extent, other times I feel things are OK.

Just as an example, her aunt died last August. She feels she has never had time to herself since she passed and she wants to go away for a couple days. She also wants to send her sister away for a couple days too since she helped with her aunt a lot the last few weeks she was alive. I told her I completely understand. I lost my mom right before I graduated college. I asked her if this trip would be the both of them and just logistical stuff so I could get off work the right amount of time and those things. She then got mad all of a sudden and wondered why I was asking all the questions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Agree. *Any behavior needs to be "for" the family even if it is strategic yelling. He has to be very cognizant of what kind of yelling is prudent and ONLY use it in that manner. Otherwise he just turns into a dump truck, dumping garbage all over his family.*
> 
> That's what my H was doing until I had a Julia Sugarbaker moment with him. :wink2:


This?

Family includes kids, right?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> This?
> 
> Family includes kids, right?


I'm not even going to take the time to explain that to you. If thats the way you are taking that then by all means carry on.

Not worth my effort.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> I'll be honest, there are times I'm not even 100% sure what I need. I feel used to an extent, other times I feel things are OK.
> 
> Just as an example, her aunt died last August. She feels she has never had time to herself since she passed and she wants to go away for a couple days. She also wants to send her sister away for a couple days too since she helped with her aunt a lot the last few weeks she was alive. I told her I completely understand. I lost my mom right before I graduated college. I asked her if this trip would be the both of them and just logistical stuff so I could get off work the right amount of time and those things. She then got mad all of a sudden and wondered why I was asking all the questions.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So her defensiveness was unsettling because your intent was with the right heart. 

Why do you think she got angry?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

Blossom Leigh said:


> So her defensiveness was unsettling because your intent was with the right heart.
> 
> Why do you think she got angry?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I honestly don't know. I don't know if it's still too fresh to her and she doesn't feel like talking about it? She was closer to her aunt than she is to her mom.


----------



## Duguesclin

Blossom Leigh said:


> Do you feel she understands what your heart needs?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Who cares?

She has young kids, a full household to manage. Why does she need another kid to take care of? He needs to be able to pull his own weight emotionally.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ZDog377 said:


> I honestly don't know. I don't know if it's still too fresh to her and she doesn't feel like talking about it? She was closer to her aunt than she is to her mom.


Were you able to ask her where her anger was coming from?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Duguesclin said:


> Who cares?
> 
> She has young kids, a full household to manage. Why does she need another kid to take care of? He needs to be able to pull his own weight emotionally.


Being a man child and having a wife who cares for your heart are two different things.

God would not say it is not good for man to be alone if He wasn't referring to a man's heart. So what did God do... Made him a woman for his heart. When they become one, its in heart and body. Any woman not concerned for her man's heart is foolish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Being a man child and having a wife who cares for your heart are two different things.
> 
> God would not say it is not good for man to be alone if He wasn't referring to a man's heart. So what did God do... Made him a woman for his heart. When they become one, its in heart and body. Any woman not concerned for her man's heart is foolish.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Anyone not caring about their spouse's feelings risks a distancing of the relationship. And some people who feel distance may become vulnerable to an affair, or a desire to simply leave the marriage.

Z, have you ever asked your wife humbly and straight out if she feels you behave childishly? Selfishly? 

Have you ever encouraged her to be direct with you about your faults? 

Could you tell her honestly that you can hear whatever she feels about you, without taking it personally? That you know it can only help you to hear what she genuinely feels about you, without any worry that you will get angry or be vindictive?

Could you then begin to work on those faults without insisting on reciprocity from her?

That is marital leadership, btw. It is working on yourself without demanding the same from a spouse who is not quite ready yet. Your example of personal change can eventually inspire the same in her. And meanwhile, you have the benefit of your own self-improvement.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Go camping for the whole weekend. Wife gets a weekend entirely to herself with no responsibilities. You get to bond with the kids. Lots of work to set up camp, cook dinner, clean up, take down camp. Kids get to see that food and shelter do not magically appear. Who knows, they might even appreciate Mom more when they get home.

And jld is correct about working on your weaknesses. if your wife sees you as childish or immature or not in control of your emotions, she won't find you attractive. You are not obliged to work on those characteristics. But if you don't, then you forfeit your right to complain about the lack of sex. Can't reasonably request that your wife work on her weak areas if you aren't willing to work on yours. That is part of why I choose to be sexless. Relieves me of the burden / obligation of working on my issues. Gutless and lazy move on my part. As I have said many times, are you sure you want to be in my club?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Anyone not caring about their spouse's feelings risks a distancing of the relationship. And some people who feel distance may become vulnerable to an affair, or a desire to simply leave the marriage.
> 
> Z, have you ever asked your wife humbly and straight out if she feels you behave childishly? Selfishly?
> 
> Have you ever encouraged her to be direct with you about your faults?
> 
> Could you tell her honestly that you can hear whatever she feels about you, without taking it personally? That you know it can only help you to hear what she genuinely feels about you, without any worry that you will get angry or be vindictive?
> 
> Could you then begin to work on those faults without insisting on reciprocity from her?
> 
> That is marital leadership, btw. It is working on yourself without demanding the same from a spouse who is not quite ready yet. Your example of personal change can eventually inspire the same in her. And meanwhile, you have the benefit of your own self-improvement.


I do not see wisdom in Zdog asking a selfish woman to assess HIS selfishness. Wisdom lies in seeking that assessment from the One who is selfless.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> I do not see wisdom in Zdog asking a selfish woman to assess HIS selfishness. Wisdom lies in seeking that assessment from the One who is selfless.


It is your opinion that she is selfish. Dug does not think she is. 

And really, it is Z and his wife's opinion of each other's selfishness in their relationship that matters, not that of anyone here.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> It is your opinion that she is selfish. Dug does not think she is.
> 
> And really, it is Z and his wife's opinion of each other's selfishness in their relationship that matters, not that of anyone here.


Still there is greater wisdom in seeking that assessment from the One who is selfless.


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> It is your opinion that she is selfish. Dug does not think she is.
> 
> And really, it is Z and his wife's opinion of each other's selfishness in their relationship that matters, not that of anyone here.


How does Dug feel she is not selfish? Not saying I agree one way or another, just trying to see views.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> How does Dug feel she is not selfish? Not saying I agree one way or another, just trying to see views.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dug thinks breastfeeding and staying home with several children is a selfless act. He thinks her work for the school is selfless, too. It uses her education to benefit all the kids in the community, not just her own.

I would add that her willingness to stay with you back when neither of you thought you could father children was incredibly sacrificial, especially for a woman who loves children the way your wife does.


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> Dug thinks breastfeeding and staying home with several children is a selfless act. He thinks her work for the school is selfless, too. It uses her education to benefit all the kids in the community, not just her own.
> 
> I would add that her willingness to stay with you back when neither of you thought you could father children was incredibly sacrificial, especially for a woman who loves children the way your wife does.


She doesnt use her education for the PTO at school. They take care of fund raisers, some assemblies, and help at the book fair. 

She was breastfeeding because it is better for the child and also considerably cheaper. Also, she was staying home with the kids due to money and a decision we made together. 

I'll come out and say it......I think she is selfish to an extent. Not full blown gold digger, but at least a little.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I don't call neglecting a husband for the sake of volunteering selfless.


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> She doesnt use her education for the PTO at school. They take care of fund raisers, some assemblies, and help at the book fair.
> 
> She was breastfeeding because it is better for the child and also considerably cheaper. Also, she was staying home with the kids due to money and a decision we made together.
> 
> I'll come out and say it......I think she is selfish to an extent. Not full blown gold digger, but at least a little.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Her education may come into it more than you think, Z. It may have influenced her parenting, too. Could be an interesting, though perhaps tangential, discussion.

And educated women are more likely to breastfeed. I remember hearing that back when I was nursing. Actually, educated women and poor immigrants are, or were, anyway, more likely, iirc. Seems paradoxical, but makes sense.

And really, Z, what gold is there to dig? The few copper coins you two have seem to be just enough to get by on. There is nothing to pay her debt.

Have you ever asked her if she thinks you are selfish?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> Her education may come into it more than you think, Z. It may have influenced her parenting, too. Could be an interesting, though perhaps tangential, discussion.
> 
> And educated women are more likely to breastfeed. I remember hearing that back when I was nursing. Actually, educated women and poor immigrants are, or were, anyway, more likely, iirc. Seems paradoxical, but makes sense.
> 
> And really, Z, what gold is there to dig? The few copper coins you two have seem to be just enough to get by on. There is nothing to pay her debt.
> 
> Have you ever asked her if she thinks you are selfish?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know that her dad definitely influenced her parenting style. She never did anything to dissapoint him and she says she never saw him drink until her high school graduation party. He would always take vacation days so that he couldn't miss things for the kids, take out loans to pay for Christmas for her step brother and sister. 

No, I have not asked her if she thinks I am selfish. She's not much into philosophical discussions. She lives in the moment and that's it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I know that her dad definitely influenced her parenting style. She never did anything to dissapoint him and she says she never saw him drink until her high school graduation party. He would always take vacation days so that he couldn't miss things for the kids, take out loans to pay for Christmas for her step brother and sister.
> 
> No, I have not asked her if she thinks I am selfish. She's not much into philosophical discussions. She lives in the moment and that's it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow. Loans to pay for Christmas. Very poor example for her.

Z, financially prudent decisions must be a foreign concept to your wife. It might be best if you took complete financial responsibility for your family.

I think far did that. He is paying down a big debt of his wife's, too. And hers was acquired secretly. Imagine if you were dealing with that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MarriedTex

ZDog377 said:


> I know that her dad definitely influenced her parenting style. She never did anything to dissapoint him and she says she never saw him drink until her high school graduation party. He would always take vacation days so that he couldn't miss things for the kids, take out loans to pay for Christmas for her step brother and sister.
> 
> No, I have not asked her if she thinks I am selfish. She's not much into philosophical discussions. She lives in the moment and that's it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's interesting. So, it sounds like her parents may have leaned in the direction of putting their life on hold to make life a "magical carpet ride" for their kids. This explains her approach to the loans. When she ignored stuff as a kid, somebody was always around to "fix" a bad situation and make it better. Now, with the loans, she closes her eyes to a glaring situation and you're left trying to be the guy to figure out a way to make it go away - without much in the way of financial support from her. 

Congratulations, you have taken her dad's role as the "Princesses' Caretaker". Your decision on whether to remain in this relationship long-term should be at least partially influenced by your evaluation of whether she is capable / willing to step up and be accountable for the situations she creates. In her eyes, right now, you are nothing more than an ineffective, disappointing Knight in Shining Armor.


----------



## ZDog377

MarriedTex said:


> That's interesting. So, it sounds like her parents may have leaned in the direction of putting their life on hold to make life a "magical carpet ride" for their kids. This explains her approach to the loans. When she ignored stuff as a kid, somebody was always around to "fix" a bad situation and make it better. Now, with the loans, she closes her eyes to a glaring situation and you're left trying to be the guy to figure out a way to make it go away - without much in the way of financial support from her.
> 
> Congratulations, you have taken her dad's role as the "Princesses' Caretaker". Your decision on whether to remain in this relationship long-term should be at least partially influenced by your evaluation of whether she is capable / willing to step up and be accountable for the situations she creates. In her eyes, right now, you are nothing more than an ineffective, disappointing Knight in Shining Armor.


Well, her mom has been married three times and is currently divorced and the same with her dad. The best part is her dad would do that every year to pay for Christmas. He'd take out the loan, have Christmas and then pay it off again in time to get a new one next Christmas. 

I understand grandparents spoil their grand kids, but her dad goes over the top. We constantly have to hear how we are too hard on the oldest and so he spends a day with him every time he comes down. He takes him out to help with his laundry and to wash his car so her dad pays him and also takes him out to eat where ever he wants.


----------



## MarriedTex

ZDog377 said:


> Well, her mom has been married three times and is currently divorced and the same with her dad. The best part is her dad would do that every year to pay for Christmas. He'd take out the loan, have Christmas and then pay it off again in time to get a new one next Christmas.
> 
> I understand grandparents spoil their grand kids, but her dad goes over the top. We constantly have to hear how we are too hard on the oldest and so he spends a day with him every time he comes down. He takes him out to help with his laundry and to wash his car so her dad pays him and also takes him out to eat where ever he wants.


I actually think that's a good role for grandparents. Good that he is spending time & is engaged. Everybody needs to have a couple people like that in their life. But it's better if they're extended family. If parents are that enabling, it can cause imbalance.


----------



## jld

MarriedTex said:


> I actually think that's a good role for grandparents. Good that he is spending time & is engaged. Everybody needs to have a couple people like that in their life. But it's better if they're extended family. If parents are that enabling, it can cause imbalance.


I read once that every kid needs one person in their life who is just crazy about them. That person's love and support can sustain a kid through a lot of turbulence.

It sounds like that person in your son's life is Grandpa. I, too, am glad he is there for him.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Those people for me were my mothers Dad and her middle sister... And Christ.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> She doesnt use her education for the PTO at school. They take care of fund raisers, some assemblies, and help at the book fair.
> 
> She was breastfeeding because it is better for the child and also considerably cheaper. Also, she was staying home with the kids due to money and a decision we made together.
> 
> I'll come out and say it......I think she is selfish to an extent. Not full blown gold digger, but at least a little.


Wowza. 
Breastfeeding is cheaper, yes, and I did it for all three of my children into their toddlerhood due to the health benefits. I wouldn't change it. However, it takes over your whole life. Even your body is not your own. There are so many factors that go into. It really is a selfless activity that is solely for the benefit of the child. Totally worth it, but it puts all the burden on the mother. If you don't recognize that, it sounds like you lack appreciation for your wife. You should appreciate each other.

Uh, if she were a gold digger she'd be digging somewhere else.

I'm not saying she's perfect by any means, but this post shows a serious issues in your marriage that you can fix.


----------



## NotEasy

jld said:


> Anyone not caring about their spouse's feelings risks a distancing of the relationship. And some people who feel distance may become vulnerable to an affair, or a desire to simply leave the marriage.


Agreed, the distance is growing and they have distant for so long it is their normal. I don't see much risk of an affair here (but who knows), more that Z2 has left the marriage and is living in room-mate mode, while Z struggles ineffectively to get back to his ideal marriage.



jld said:


> Z, have you ever asked your wife humbly and straight out if she feels you behave childishly? Selfishly?


I see some advantage in this, with warnings though. Her opinion will tell you about her own vision. It will probably not be a fair opinion. And probably will not be a clear opinion. Keep in mind though that given you are married to her then her opinion is important to the marriage, even if it is biased, unclear and unfair. It tells you what you are working with. 
Maybe it will give you a benchmark, which if satisfied gives some leverage for further discussion and possible progress. Not fair, but that is your reality.


jld said:


> Have you ever encouraged her to be direct with you about your faults?


Again, I doubt you will get a direct answer. Don't get your hopes up there. But it seems from your posts that you don't know her thoughts. Asking is the best way to learn.



jld said:


> Could you tell her honestly that you can hear whatever she feels about you, without taking it personally? That you know it can only help you to hear what she genuinely feels about you, without any worry that you will get angry or be vindictive?


This is another of my warnings. Only ask if you can handle the reply.
Only ask when you feel strong enough to have strips ripped off you and you think she is in a mood to respond.
Also I warn that encouraging her might get you a response in a day or a week after she has had time to think. Don't be surprised if, for no particular reason, she unexpectedly drops a load of complaints on you some time later. So you have to be able to stay calm, don't storm off, and stay engaged even a week or two later.



jld said:


> Could you then begin to work on those faults without insisting on reciprocity from her?


Agreed, given the level of disengagement there will probably be no reciprocity from her. 
And I think/hope/pray that the answer to this is "yes". Z is already working on some TAM suggestions with no reciprocity from her.



jld said:


> That is marital leadership, btw. It is working on yourself without demanding the same from a spouse who is not quite ready yet. Your example of personal change can eventually inspire the same in her. And meanwhile, you have the benefit of your own self-improvement.


Can't agree with the "not quite ready yet". From his posts it seems she is behaving in her normal fashion, not that she has recently drifted but will soon return to better behaviour. I see a chance to get someone to change back from a temporary aberation, by pointing out they are not living up to their own beliefs and norms. But to me it reads like Z is trying to change her normal behaviour, which is far far harder.
But his own self-improvement will set a great example for the kids.


----------



## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> Wowza.
> Breastfeeding is cheaper, yes, and I did it for all three of my children into their toddlerhood due to the health benefits. I wouldn't change it. However, it takes over your whole life. Even your body is not your own. There are so many factors that go into. It really is a selfless activity that is solely for the benefit of the child. Totally worth it, but it puts all the burden on the mother. If you don't recognize that, it sounds like you lack appreciation for your wife. You should appreciate each other.
> 
> Uh, if she were a gold digger she'd be digging somewhere else.
> 
> I'm not saying she's perfect by any means, but this post shows a serious issues in your marriage that you can fix.


I never said I didn't have appreciation for her. I recognize that having a child attached to your chest the majority of waking hours is not fun. 

I guess I should have clarified my gold digger comment. I meant she is definitely not a gold digger. I feel she is selfish to an extent and most people could probably say the same about me as well.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Everyone is selfish Zdog. The trick is figuring out healthy selfishness vs unhealthy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Why can't she just pump the milk and put it in bottles and refrigerate it, and then BOTH of you can enjoy feeding the child? With breast milk.


----------



## dspringsmith

she's cheating call her out 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jld

turnera2 said:


> Why can't she just pump the milk and put it in bottles and refrigerate it, and then BOTH of you can enjoy feeding the child? With breast milk.


She is not nursing anymore. 

As far as expressing and storing, without a hospital quality pump, and sometimes even with one, it can be difficult to express enough milk to store. And there is usually no pump as effective as a baby at the breast, with the loving arms of his mother around him. 

Lactation consultants are apparently questioning the idea that pumping can be as beneficial to the baby as direct breastfeeding. It seems that certain areas of the baby's brain are stimulated during nursing that are not when being fed breast milk from a bottle.

Plus, why would anyone want to fuss with sterilizing bottles and worrying about proper temperature of the milk when the body takes care of all that naturally?

The La Leche League, an international organization of breastfeeding mothers, once quoted a doctor referring to a baby at the breast as "the gold standard." My own experience nursing for 15+ years would lead me to agree.


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## NotEasy

turnera2 said:


> Why can't she just pump the milk and put it in bottles and refrigerate it, and then BOTH of you can enjoy feeding the child? With breast milk.


This seems like exactly the sort of practical helping that may be well received. I think her "touched out" feelings are largely caused by the youngest, who constantly overrides any other task she is doing and demands feeding. Other kids requests can be delayed,but not a hungry baby.

The pessimist in me thinks she will say "I fed the other babes without bottles, why change?". Or she will complain about the costs of bottles, or the hastle of sterilising. But try anyway. My guess is you coming up with practical ideas to help is more important than whether the idea is accepted.

And practically speaking, experiment with different pumps, postures, techniques etc. Everyone is different. It is not the same as breastfeeding. My wife found she had to pump while seated but leaning slightly forward. Not one of the recommended techniques, but it worked for her.


----------



## NotEasy

jld said:


> She is not nursing anymore.


@ZDog377 is that right? Looking back at the first post it probably is right. Damn, that ruins that suggestion.



jld said:


> As far as expressing and storing, without a hospital quality pump, and sometimes even with one, it can be difficult to express enough milk to store. And there is usually no pump as effective as a baby at the breast, with the loving arms of his mother around him.
> 
> Lactation consultants are apparently questioning the idea that pumping can be as beneficial to the baby as direct breastfeeding. It seems that certain areas of the baby's brain are stimulated during nursing that are not when being fed breast milk from a bottle.
> 
> Plus, why would anyone want to fuss with sterilizing bottles and worrying about proper temperature of the milk when the body takes care of all that naturally?
> 
> The La Leche League, an international organization of breastfeeding mothers, once quoted a doctor referring to a baby at the breast as "the gold standard." My own experience nursing for 15+ years would lead me to agree.


In the hope that it is still an option, I wouldn't suggest pumping in place of breastfeeding. It is just to give mum some flexibility and lets dad help a little.
I agree natural breastfeeding is the gold standard, but in our case the pump was faster (once the correct technique was found) and bub seemed to like the variety.
My suggestion is to give Z a way to help Z2 in a way she hopefully appreciates.


----------



## jld

He could help her by expressing interest and support for her interests. He could show openness to her childrearing convictions. 

And when he feels she is doing things that harm her or the kids, he could gently ask her to help him understand her thinking, and what she expects the outcome to be. 

Those are the types of things that would help him establish an emotional connection with her. And that emotional connection is his best shot at getting a more active sex life going.


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## ZDog377

She is no longer breastfeeding, she has not been for the past 6 months or so. She stopped when he was a little over a year.


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## ZDog377

jld said:


> He could help her by expressing interest and support for her interests. He could show openness to her childrearing convictions.
> 
> And when he feels she is doing things that harm her or the kids, he could gently ask her to help him understand her thinking, and what she expects the outcome to be.
> 
> Those are the types of things that would help him establish an emotional connection with her. And that emotional connection is his best shot at getting a more active sex life going.


I understand that maybe I need to be in tune with her more, but how about when she doesn't listen to anything I have to say? I know she doesn't do anything to physically harm the kids, but it seems with her being at school all the time the oldest thinks mom can solve any problem he has. He doesn't know how to stand up for himself. We had a problem with some kids on the school bus doing stuff. I told him running home and crying to mom doesn't solve anything. If they're physically hurting him, he's allowed to fight back. He's not allowed to start anything, but he better finish it if they start something. 

There are many times when he's been doing something and she says "one more time and you're not going to do x for the rest of the weekend". He will do it the one more time, she will give him the punishment but then he argues with her and she goes "all right, next time you're definitely going to be in trouble....."


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I understand that maybe I need to be in tune with her more, but how about when she doesn't listen to anything I have to say? I know she doesn't do anything to physically harm the kids, but it seems with her being at school all the time the oldest thinks mom can solve any problem he has. He doesn't know how to stand up for himself. We had a problem with some kids on the school bus doing stuff. I told him running home and crying to mom doesn't solve anything. If they're physically hurting him, he's allowed to fight back. He's not allowed to start anything, but he better finish it if they start something.


He can get in trouble with the school if he responds to violence with violence, right? Wouldn't it be better for him to report it, maybe with you by his side?

I understand you are frustrated with your lack of influence with your wife. I think you could get it, but it is going to take some investment on your part. Showing interest in her interests, listening empathetically, and not being defensive when she disagrees with you could be a start.

You have to earn that influence, Z. It is not likely to come from telling her she owes it to you.




> There are many times when he's been doing something and she says "one more time and you're not going to do x for the rest of the weekend". He will do it the one more time, she will give him the punishment but then he argues with her and she goes "all right, next time you're definitely going to be in trouble....."


You feel like she does not follow through. Have you asked her why she does not?


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## ZDog377

jld said:


> He can get in trouble with the school if he responds to violence with violence, right? Wouldn't it be better for him to report it, maybe with you by his side?
> 
> I understand you are frustrated with your lack of influence with your wife. I think you could get it, but it is going to take some investment on your part. Showing interest in her interests, listening empathetically, and not being defensive when she disagrees with you could be a start.
> 
> You have to earn that influence, Z. It is not likely to come from telling her she owes it to you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You feel like she does not follow through. Have you asked her why she does not?


Yes, he could get in trouble with the school. However, I told him I would stand beside him and stand up for him as long as he did not start it. 

I've asked her about why she doesn't follow through. She really doesn't have an answer. Obviously he gets confused then when I set the punishment and stick to it.


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## giddiot

I told my son once that if got in trouble at school again I would start with smashing his 10 favorite CD's. Well he did so I told him to go get them for me, he was 13 at the time. He came out with a mixture of kids cd's like Lion King and some of his younger brothers. So I went and retrieved his collection on Megadeath ones, took a Ball-pine hammer and smashed them. He kept complaining they were his property because he bought them. My response was with my money. He stopped getting in trouble in school and now as an adult tells me he was tired of that band at the time anyway. Geez.


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> Yes, he could get in trouble with the school. However, I told him I would stand beside him and stand up for him as long as he did not start it.


Z, this sounds risky. He could end up in trouble with the law. It can sometimes go beyond the authority of the school.



> I've asked her about why she doesn't follow through. She really doesn't have an answer. Obviously he gets confused then when I set the punishment and stick to it.


It could breed resentment in him. Or he could come to appreciate it. 

Just make sure you are more about building the relationship than meting out punishment.


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## turnera

jld said:


> She is not nursing anymore.
> 
> As far as expressing and storing, without a hospital quality pump, and sometimes even with one, it can be difficult to express enough milk to store. And there is usually no pump as effective as a baby at the breast, with the loving arms of his mother around him.


That's ridiculous. I pumped all but the first three months of my daughter's milk time. And she turned out just wonderfully. Just because you chose that route doesn't mean other ways aren't all right, too. Yet again, as with all the other advice you give, you purport that your way is the only solution.



jld said:


> Plus, why would anyone want to fuss with sterilizing bottles and worrying about proper temperature of the milk when the body takes care of all that naturally?


Gee, I don't know. Maybe that pesky little thing like one spouse doesn't always earn enough to support the family and the wife has to go back to work in two or three months?


----------



## jld

turnera2 said:


> That's ridiculous. I pumped all but the first three months of my daughter's milk time. And she turned out just wonderfully. Just because you chose that route doesn't mean other ways aren't all right, too. Yet again, as with all the other advice you give, you purport that your way is the only solution.


That is not my own made up opinion, Turnera. I heard it at the La Leche League, the international association of breastfeeding mothers, when I was a young mother. Dr. Gregory White, husband of one of the founding mothers, said it.

I will look for the piece I saw the other day on the benefits of the baby at the breast, too. Or perhaps better said, the concerns when the baby is not at the breast when feeding.



> Gee, I don't know. Maybe that pesky little thing like one spouse doesn't always earn enough to support the family and the wife has to go back to work in two or three months?


Yes, that is when it is needed. But how is it relevant to Z's situation?


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## ZDog377

jld said:


> Z, this sounds risky. He could end up in trouble with the law. It can sometimes go beyond the authority of the school.
> 
> 
> 
> It could breed resentment in him. Or he could come to appreciate it.
> 
> Just make sure you are more about building the relationship than meting out punishment.


I understand about building the relationship, but there comes a point where he needs to realize that I'm a parent first and friend second. The wife feels that it should be the other way around. Also, I never told him to beat the kid into a bloody mess. I did tell him that he needs to fight back and that defending yourself is never the wrong thing to do.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> Z, this sounds risky. He could end up in trouble with the law. It can sometimes go beyond the authority of the school.


It's just a question of whether z want's his son to grow up to be a man or a wimp. Kid's got to fight his own battles, but he needs to know his dad has his back if he does.


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## Blossom Leigh

"If you don't rely on my advice Zdog and rely on your own wisdom, you could screw up your kid and you don't want that, do you Zdog?"

That is the kind of advice I would ignore from any human. Because that is classic emotional blackmail via fear, obligation and guilt. Aka psychological abuse.





My best offering to you is...Self assess well, THEN trust your gut, stand in your beliefs, fight for what is right, regardless of your wife's dysfunction. Tell me to pound sand if you disagree and I'm good with it. You owe me nothing. Your wife owes you respect on many levels. I hope she wises up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75

turnera2 said:


> That's ridiculous. I pumped all but the first three months of my daughter's milk time. And she turned out just wonderfully. Just because you chose that route doesn't mean other ways aren't all right, too. Yet again, as with all the other advice you give, you purport that your way is the only solution.
> 
> Gee, I don't know. Maybe that pesky little thing like one spouse doesn't always earn enough to support the family and the wife has to go back to work in two or three months?


Turnera, please know I am not saying this to back up jld. At least, not completely. But, sometimes, pumping truly isn't an option anyway. I tried. I really did. I never pumped more than 1/2 ounce anytime I tried. And this was trying multiple times each day. I did, however, produce enough for my babies to get what they needed. So, jld IS correct that the baby DOES work more effectively than a pump ever could. This doesn't make a difference for OP, though, except for the very real possibility that pumping was NOT an option for her. It isn't an option for everyone. I think it would have bern better to ask if it was a viable option, rather than "Why couldn't she just pump?" or similar sentiments. 

Rest assured, turnera, I do know that babies who are fed formula and/or are only able to be given pumped breast milk can, and often are, JUST as healthy (and any other chosen benefits relating to breast vs bottle) as those who are exclusively fed at mother's breast.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## john117

Back in middle school we had one of those episodes with DD1. We did tell the school that she has our explicit permission to deck any and all threatening kids...

Worked remarkably well. Ironically she was a big and tall kid in middle school (missed cutoff date by a couple weeks) yet shes a pixie now...


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## john117

We used the hospital grade Medella pump 😂 the olde style plexi dome one not the toy rental kind.. 










A bit noisy but did pretty well yield wise - of course we tracked yields... despite the La Leche League's best efforts (who would have thought the class was a group setting with, ehem, hands on examples) J2 did not produce enough so we supplemented.

Anyhow, nice days. Especially when LLL suggested a massage to increase yield 😂 😂

Good ole' days. Sorry for the t-jack.


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## turnera

jld said:


> Yes, that is when it is needed. But how is it relevant to Z's situation?


Well, _I_ was trying to provide examples of how a baby-consumed mom could give up some of the baby time to the dad so the baby could get that oh-so-important bonding with the _father_, too. You know, advice to make his marriage better if another one comes along?

You were just trying to push your beliefs onto everyone else. As usual.


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## jld

Turnera, here is one article I found. I was actually looking for a different one that I had run across the other day. Just cannot find it right now. But this is probably enough. Not sure Z is very interested, considering his family's nursing days are behind them.

Z, you might want to share this article with your wife, though. She may be interested in the subject. And it would be a good chance to create some positive feelings between you two by recognizing her efforts for the kids. 


https://psmag.com/the-unseen-consequences-of-pumping-breast-milk-ddb50b16d4a7#.6n7dbpnpo

_DESPITE THE NEED FOR additional research, current studies point to several problematic aspects of exclusive pumping. One concern is that babies only fed by bottle eat more and thus grow differently. A 2010 analysis shows that babies fed breast milk by bottle in early infancy were more likely to empty their bottles later in infancy than their breastfeeding counterparts. Infants fed both at the breast and with bottles of expressed breast milk gained weight at a similar rate to those only breastfed, but infants gained more weight per month when fed only by bottle (formula or breast milk). There are multiple theories for why: Babies can get milk out of bottles quicker than breasts, caregivers tend to encourage infants to finish their bottles, and it is thought that breastfeeding teaches babies when to stop eating.

Another analysis found that infants who were not directly breastfed have a significant increase in coughing and wheezing episodes compared to those who were. Some research suggests storing expressed breast milk may interfere with its beneficial properties. Freezing can break down its immunological cells and lipids (but doesn’t affect its antimicrobial proteins), refrigeration reduces ascorbic acid concentrations, and both storage methods reduce antioxidant activity. Microwave thawing, which is not recommended, drastically decreases breast milk’s anti-infective elements. The effects of these changes, if any, are unknown.

The content of the breast milk itself may differ when it is exclusively pumped. A mother’s breast milk changes according to a baby’s needs, as it ages, as well as throughout the course of a day and the course of each feeding session. Research has confirmed that the fat concentration of expressed milk increases with the baby’s age in the same way that breast-fed milk does. But if mothers don’t pump for long enough at each session, their infants may receive predominantly fore milk (which is high in carbohydrates) and not get enough hind milk (which is high in fat).

As for contamination, everything breast milk touches outside the body during the process of expression and bottle-feeding is a chance for it to obtain harmful bacteria. Bacterial counts are higher in milk expressed with a pump than in milk expressed by hand.

Thorley adds that breastfeeding protects against ear infections not just because of breast milk’s anti-infective elements, but because of the posture of the baby’s head and the dynamics of the suck/swallow/breathe cycle while nursing. She says babies fed by bottle miss out on these aspects._


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## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> Turnera, here is one article I found. I was actually looking for a different one that I had run across the other day. Just cannot find it right now. But this is probably enough. Not sure Z is very interested, considering his family's nursing days are behind them.
> 
> Z, you might want to share this article with your wife, though. She may be interested in the subject. And it would be a good chance to create some positive feelings between you two by recognizing her efforts for the kids.
> 
> 
> https://psmag.com/the-unseen-consequences-of-pumping-breast-milk-ddb50b16d4a7#.6n7dbpnpo
> 
> _DESPITE THE NEED FOR additional research, current studies point to several problematic aspects of exclusive pumping. One concern is that babies only fed by bottle eat more and thus grow differently. A 2010 analysis shows that babies fed breast milk by bottle in early infancy were more likely to empty their bottles later in infancy than their breastfeeding counterparts. Infants fed both at the breast and with bottles of expressed breast milk gained weight at a similar rate to those only breastfed, but infants gained more weight per month when fed only by bottle (formula or breast milk). There are multiple theories for why: Babies can get milk out of bottles quicker than breasts, caregivers tend to encourage infants to finish their bottles, and it is thought that breastfeeding teaches babies when to stop eating.
> 
> Another analysis found that infants who were not directly breastfed have a significant increase in coughing and wheezing episodes compared to those who were. Some research suggests storing expressed breast milk may interfere with its beneficial properties. Freezing can break down its immunological cells and lipids (but doesn’t affect its antimicrobial proteins), refrigeration reduces ascorbic acid concentrations, and both storage methods reduce antioxidant activity. Microwave thawing, which is not recommended, drastically decreases breast milk’s anti-infective elements. The effects of these changes, if any, are unknown.
> 
> The content of the breast milk itself may differ when it is exclusively pumped. A mother’s breast milk changes according to a baby’s needs, as it ages, as well as throughout the course of a day and the course of each feeding session. Research has confirmed that the fat concentration of expressed milk increases with the baby’s age in the same way that breast-fed milk does. But if mothers don’t pump for long enough at each session, their infants may receive predominantly fore milk (which is high in carbohydrates) and not get enough hind milk (which is high in fat).
> 
> As for contamination, everything breast milk touches outside the body during the process of expression and bottle-feeding is a chance for it to obtain harmful bacteria. Bacterial counts are higher in milk expressed with a pump than in milk expressed by hand.
> 
> Thorley adds that breastfeeding protects against ear infections not just because of breast milk’s anti-infective elements, but because of the posture of the baby’s head and the dynamics of the suck/swallow/breathe cycle while nursing. She says babies fed by bottle miss out on these aspects._


You're thread jacking with this. She isn't breast feeding.


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I understand about building the relationship, but there comes a point where he needs to realize that I'm a parent first and friend second. The wife feels that it should be the other way around. Also, I never told him to beat the kid into a bloody mess. I did tell him that he needs to fight back and that defending yourself is never the wrong thing to do.


Every parent needs to make his or her own decisions. It can be helpful to get other opinions, though.

I would just say that, imo, discipline is most meaningful in the context of a very loving, very grounded relationship. I would never suggest putting discipline before love. Love is the main thing. Discipline should spring from love.

But discipline is a gift as well. It can save kids lots of heartache and expense when they are older. And you know this firsthand by the good example your parents set for you with money management.


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## Blossom Leigh

No one is suggesting putting discipline before love. You discipline from love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ZDog377

Nucking Futs said:


> It's just a question of whether z want's his son to grow up to be a man or a wimp. Kid's got to fight his own battles, but he needs to know his dad has his back if he does.


Exactly. I told him as long as he's honest with me and the other person really started it, I'll back him 110%. If I find out he lied and he actually started something, the outcome won't be pretty.


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> Exactly. I told him as long as he's honest with me and the other person really started it, I'll back him 110%. If I find out he lied and he actually started something, the outcome won't be pretty.


You understand that the law may not care if you back him up, right?


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## ZDog377

jld said:


> You understand that the law may not care if you back him up, right?


Once again, I never told him to beat the kid unconscious. However, I don't know anyone in the world that would fault a kid for punching back if he was punched first. I'm trying to raise a man, not a cry baby.


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> Once again, I never told him to beat the kid unconscious. However, I don't know anyone in the world that would fault a kid for punching back if he was punched first. I'm trying to raise a man, not a cry baby.


I understand. My concern is that the law may hold them both accountable.

Just want to help you think this strategy, and its consequences, through.


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## turnera

Remember that schools these days care more about lawsuits than anything else.


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## Cynthia

turnera2 said:


> Remember that schools these days care more about lawsuits than anything else.


So sue the school for not providing security when they won't allow a kid to defend himself. You can't leave people defenseless by not providing security and not allowing them to defend themselves.


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## ZDog377

jld said:


> I understand. My concern is that the law may hold them both accountable.
> 
> Just want to help you think this strategy, and its consequences, through.


No strategy on this, just a fact of life and how all 3 of my boys will be raised.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonmd

ZDog377 said:


> Once again, I never told him to beat the kid unconscious. However, I don't know anyone in the world that would fault a kid for punching back if he was punched first. I'm trying to raise a man, not a cry baby.


I'm rather partial to this attitude myself.

However, you do need to understand what will happen. BOTH combatants will be disciplined, does not matter how much you 'back him' although from a parenting point of view that is important. 

Just part of the general pussification of america my friend. Maybe there is an exception in West Texas of someplace but the general educational theory is there shall be no violence ever, if you fight back you are equally guilty. 

Personally, I think you do that for a decade to every young boy and you get the occasional theatre shooting


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## turnera

Yeah, there were a bunch of girls at DD's high school who were always pushing people around; school knew it, told them to stop, did nothing, and then finally one girl punched back and SHE got detention because nobody would cop to seeing the other girls do anything - they were afraid of being their next target.


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## Tron

Sorry to hear that about the girls. That really sucks. 

On the boy side of things, if the Zdog's boy fights back and carries the fight to conclusion, the bullies will look for easier prey next time. One fight alleviates the need for more later on. That's just the way things work on the playground.

As long as your boy isn't the bully you are doing the right thing IMO. Carry on Zdog.


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## ZDog377

Tron said:


> Sorry to hear that about the girls. That really sucks.
> 
> On the boy side of things, if the Zdog's boy fights back and carries the fight to conclusion, the bullies will look for easier prey next time. One fight alleviates the need for more later on. That's just the way things work on the playground.
> 
> As long as your boy isn't the bully you are doing the right thing IMO. Carry on Zdog.


Exactly.....I've told him also that you treat everybody with the same amount of respect whether its a kid older than you or younger than you. 

It just seems lately her and I are drifting further apart. I have some good reading from here that it looks like I need to get started on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ZDog377

Also, I'm taking the oldest with me this week and my dad is takig the younger two. I'm hoping this gives her some time to herself to relax.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> Also, I'm taking the oldest with me this week and my dad is takig the younger two. I'm hoping this gives her some time to herself to relax.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is nice. But to get close, you need to connect with her, too. Make some deposits in her emotional bank account.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> That is nice. But to get close, you need to connect with her, too. Make some deposits in her emotional bank account.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Z, nothing you do will ever be good enough.


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## ZDog377

jld said:


> That is nice. But to get close, you need to connect with her, too. Make some deposits in her emotional bank account.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kind of hard when she seems to have no desire to spend much one on one time together. It is mostly limited to late night shopping trips or five minutes in bed before we pass out. I don't mind giving massages and things either but it almost seems like they're expected anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cynthia

jld said:


> That is nice. But to get close, you need to connect with her, too. Make some deposits in her emotional bank account.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


One can only make deposits from a balance. If there is no balance in your bank account, there is nothing to give. 
I think you might be tapped out right now, Zdog. Part of what some of us have been telling you is to make sure your emotional account is also being filled. We all have needs. Needs must be met before we have anything to give. Make sure you are doing things to build yourself up and be the man that you want to be. Then you will have more to give. But right now, it looks to me like you are making as many deposits in your wife's account as you can. Keep your chin up.


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> Kind of hard when she seems to have no desire to spend much one on one time together. It is mostly limited to late night shopping trips or five minutes in bed before we pass out. I don't mind giving massages and things either but it almost seems like they're expected anymore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Certainly you need to do what you feel most comfortable with. But sometimes, once disconnection starts, the gap widens and widens.


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## ZDog377

So I've come to the conclusion that there is no pleasing my oldest. We just spent Wednesday, Thursday and today together. Halfway home he starts asking me what I'm doing tonight after we get home. I told him we were having someone come over to look at some projects and I was probably spending sometime with mom. He starts asking me to play all kind of video games when we got home. 

I told him that I had other things to do tonight but would definitely play a video game with him sometime this weekend. He started off into one of his rants about how I never want to do anything with him. 

My wife and I had a talk last night about how he might be AD/HD but she isn't super concerned about it because he is still doing well in school.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia

Be thankful he wants to spend time with him and stop giving in to his manipulation. He is manipulating you.

Your family doesn't sound appreciative of each other. It is being modeled by you and your wife. Your whole attitude regarding breastfeeding and your response to my comments shows a disconnect and lack of appreciation on your part. You have given us many examples of lack of appreciation regarding your wife. Your son's attitude issues have nothing to do with ADD/ADHD. They have to do with an entitlement attitude and lack of appreciation. That is what must be addressed.


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## ZDog377

CynthiaDe said:


> Be thankful he wants to spend time with him and stop giving in to his manipulation. He is manipulating you.
> 
> Your family doesn't sound appreciative of each other. It is being modeled by you and your wife. Your whole attitude regarding breastfeeding and your response to my comments shows a disconnect and lack of appreciation on your part. You have given us many examples of lack of appreciation regarding your wife. Your son's attitude issues have nothing to do with ADD/ADHD. They have to do with an entitlement attitude and lack of appreciation. That is what must be addressed.


I agree about the entitlement, it is hard though when she tells me I do not spend enough time with him. How did my comments show a disconnect about breastfeeding? I tried to help by feeding from a bottle but he preferred it right from the source. By five months or so be was sleeping through the night anyways. She saved most of her pumped milk and used it for the rice cereal and that when they were old enough to be trying semi solid foods.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ZDog377

So I think we made a little progress this weekend, I'm just not sure the reason behind it. We went grocery shopping together Friday night when I got home and then I spent the majority of the weekend doing things around the house. We fooled around a little Saturday night and she returned the favor Sunday night. Now I don't know if it was due to her having some time away from the kids this past week or the fact that she is now going to visit her friend for a few days in August. Also, it's my birthday today so I don't know if she felt like she had to do something for that. I did catch some grief from her though because I used a small amount of my airline miles to fly my aunt up to visit my grandma. 

We are planning on starting a budget as well here in the next week or so that way we have something in place when she starts back to work.


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## jld

Happy Birthday, Z 

Glad to hear about the budget. Will her loan payments be included in it?


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## ZDog377

jld said:


> Happy Birthday, Z
> 
> Glad to hear about the budget. Will her loan payments be included in it?


Yeah, it will be in there.


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## ZDog377

So I've come to the conclusion and now I'm seeing what makes her 100% happy, I just have to figure out if I want to deal with it the rest of my life. As long as she is doing what she wants, she is happy. That has involved her doing something just about every day this week and not being home until the evening. Monday morning she had to take our youngest to a doctor's appointment. She spent the rest of the day letting letting them play around outside across town from the doctor's appointment. Tuesday they went to a local amusement park with a friend and her kids. Today they went to a local lake and played all days with friends from pre-school. They might go back to the amusement park tomorrow but she also has to pack because our oldest is going to stay with her family for two weeks. 

I told her that maybe he should be doing some of the laundry and packing since he is old enough. No response from her on that. We are meeting her mom this weekend so we don't have to drive the whole way up there. She mentions that he needs school clothes, I asked how we were going to pay for them. She wants to use income tax money, I asked where child support money is. Once again, no response. 

It's been a long time coming, but I'm finally realizing that everything from here on out depends on how much I can tolerate.


----------



## anonmd

Just remember, it is likely to be the rest of your life. I suspect women who place your needs so low now are more likely to fall apart sexually when menopause hits.


----------



## turnera

Are you ready to man up yet?


----------



## ZDog377

turnera said:


> Are you ready to man up yet?


Man up as in put my foot down and tell her how it's going to be? I've tried on a few things but it hasn't done much. Once again we were without the kids Saturday night and Sunday. We both passed out Saturday from doing things all day and did some things around home Sunday. We did some sexual things, but they had to be quickies. She's said that the reason she seems more open to things now is that I'm not as clingy as I used to be.


----------



## turnera

Absolutely good that you're not as clingy - definitely makes you more attractive to her.


ZDog377 said:


> Man up as in put my foot down and tell her how it's going to be? I've tried on a few things but it hasn't done much.


So...you 'tried' to put your foot down, but it didn't work? That's an oxymoron - you either put your foot down or you don't. Putting your foot down - telling her what you will and won't accept - has to be actually NOT ACCEPTING whatever it is you're against.

What exactly did you tell her and what happened?


----------



## ZDog377

turnera said:


> Absolutely good that you're not as clingy - definitely makes you more attractive to her.
> 
> So...you 'tried' to put your foot down, but it didn't work? That's an oxymoron - you either put your foot down or you don't. Putting your foot down - telling her what you will and won't accept - has to be actually NOT ACCEPTING whatever it is you're against.
> 
> What exactly did you tell her and what happened?


The student loans for example. I told her she needed to talk to them and sort something out. They sent her the paperwork at least two weeks ago. As of when I left on Monday she still had not sent the paperwork in.


----------



## turnera

She needed to do it...or what?

Manning up isn't an empty threat. It's telling her that she either gets it done or you're going to do something about it. Like turn her into the government, whatever, but giving an empty ultimatum is stupid. And weak. And pointless 

"I won't live under the same roof with someone who refuses to honor her debts. If you don't get it done in the next week, I'm going to call the state and find out what needs to be done to get them to deal with you. Your choice."


----------



## ZDog377

turnera said:


> She needed to do it...or what?
> 
> Manning up isn't an empty threat. It's telling her that she either gets it done or you're going to do something about it. Like turn her into the government, whatever, but giving an empty ultimatum is stupid. And weak. And pointless
> 
> "I won't live under the same roof with someone who refuses to honor her debts. If you don't get it done in the next week, I'm going to call the state and find out what needs to be done to get them to deal with you. Your choice."


So I man up and tell her things will change. If she doesn't go along with it, it's ultimately up to me to decide if I want to stick around or not. She just doesn't seem like the type that shock will do anything to change her.


----------



## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> So I man up and tell her things will change. If she doesn't go along with it, it's ultimately up to me to decide if I want to stick around or not. She just doesn't seem like the type that shock will do anything to change her.


Leaving is not your only option. You tell her that you don't feel like doing (fill in the blank) and you're going to stop doing that if you don't get some help from her in a certain area.


----------



## turnera

ZDog377 said:


> So I man up and tell her things will change. If she doesn't go along with it, it's ultimately up to me to decide if I want to stick around or not. She just doesn't seem like the type that shock will do anything to change her.


You're not doing it to change her. That's Nice Guy thinking. 

You're doing it because it drives you crazy that your wife has turned out to be not only a freeloader but a thief. So you state YOUR boundary about what you need in YOUR life - to live with an honest person, and you inform them of the consequence YOU will put in place around YOU, to protect you from that bad feeling. 

Nothing to do with what she does. She's free to ignore you. And then she'll wake up one day and you'll be gone.


----------



## ZDog377

turnera said:


> Absolutely good that you're not as clingy - definitely makes you more attractive to her


Here is the issue though. That's not me. I want some touch and all that from her on the weekends. It ups the sexual intimacy from her, but it is always on her terms. She asked for it once maybe out of the past ten times. 

I asked her the other night what has happened to the people we used to be when dating. The intimacy, less arguing, all those things. She said life and the kids happened. 

As an example, she said that she now considers any form of oral "disgusting" and that she doesnt have time anymore for a quick kiss here or there. 

I've tried working more on telling her how much I appreciate her, but its getting to the point where it feels like running into a brick wall.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Holdingontoit

You are correct. You are banging your head against a brick wall. What you are missing is that the brick wall is not a jail cell. It blocks travel only in one direction. There are other directions you could move, but you refuse to change directions. That is on you, not her.

You keep asking how to tunnel under or climb over or blow up the wall. Accept that you cannot. You need to move away from the wall and stop trying to get to the other side of the wall. Leave the wall (and what is behind it) in your wake. You may entice what is behind the wall to unlock the gate and come outside. Or not. But at least you will no longer be banging your head against bricks.


----------



## Personal

Holdingontoit said:


> You are correct. You are banging your head against a brick wall. What you are missing is that the brick wall is not a jail cell. It blocks travel only in one direction. There are other directions you could move, but you refuse to change directions. That is on you, not her.
> 
> You keep asking how to tunnel under or climb over or blow up the wall. Accept that you cannot. You need to move away from the wall and stop trying to get to the other side of the wall. Leave the wall (and what is behind it) in your wake. You may entice what is behind the wall to unlock the gate and come outside. Or not. But at least you will no longer be banging your head against bricks.


:thumbup: Well said!


----------



## turnera

ZDog377 said:


> Here is the issue though. That's not me. I want some touch and all that from her on the weekends. It ups the sexual intimacy from her, but it is always on her terms. She asked for it once maybe out of the past ten times.
> 
> I asked her the other night what has happened to the people we used to be when dating. The intimacy, less arguing, all those things. She said life and the kids happened.
> 
> As an example, she said that she now considers any form of oral "disgusting" and that she doesnt have time anymore for a quick kiss here or there.
> 
> I've tried working more on telling her how much I appreciate her, but its getting to the point where it feels like running into a brick wall.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


meh, more needy clingy Nice Guy talk. Boring. Turn off. Ignore him. and sure as hell don't let him touch me. I want a REAL man.


----------



## Holdingontoit

@ZDog377: I thought about the analogy more. It is not a brick wall. It is a brick tower. Narrow and tall. With one gate at the base. You are banging your head on the door, trying to get in. She is inside and won't open the door. You are surrounded by the whole wide world. Yet all you do is stare at the door and bang away. You feel trapped. But you are not the one inside the tower. You are outside, with the whole world available to you. You only feel trapped because you refuse to turn and walk away from the door.


----------



## ZDog377

Holdingontoit said:


> @ZDog377: I thought about the analogy more. It is not a brick wall. It is a brick tower. Narrow and tall. With one gate at the base. You are banging your head on the door, trying to get in. She is inside and won't open the door. You are surrounded by the whole wide world. Yet all you do is stare at the door and bang away. You feel trapped. But you are not the one inside the tower. You are outside, with the whole world available to you. You only feel trapped because you refuse to turn and walk away from the door.


So her and I both agree we need to spend more time together. Problem is that she doesn't seem to actively try and do things where I do. So her mom is watching the kids overnight one night this weekend and we are going to visit a friend and his gf for the night. Are you saying me planning this is Mr. Nice Guy and I should cancel things and do something on my own?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

You know zdog, I always hope something has changed when your thread begins to become a little more active. HOT has it right, but people have been telling you the same thing for nearly a year. No, he is saying you keep trying and she does the very bare minmum to keep you engaged. The one thing you do, which stopped me from posting in your thread is hyper focusing on an issue.


He told you there is an entire world (hyper focused, myopic) you are missing by trying to constantly "fix" your wife. Whenever someone points this out, you immediately go to an event or date and ask "should I do this or that."

I like HOT's analogy and will take it one step further. Out of the top of the tower she occasionally dangles a key to the door, obviously just out of reach and you know it, but you keep jumping up there anywaywhen you get tired of banging on the door.


----------



## turnera

ZDog377 said:


> So her and I both agree we need to spend more time together. Problem is that she doesn't seem to actively try and do things where I do. So her mom is watching the kids overnight one night this weekend and we are going to visit a friend and his gf for the night. Are you saying me planning this is Mr. Nice Guy and I should cancel things and do something on my own?


No, of course not, if she's wanting to engage with you, run with it. Have fun. The best way to get a wife to want to be with you again is to spend 15 hours a week on personal, one-on-one time. That's how the 'love chemical' (PEA) stays flowing and you stay in love.

Nice Guy is you doing stuff for her, hoping that she will, in turn, notice you. Or accepting abuse from her.


----------



## john117

If one's mind is made up, you can spend 15 hours a day and it won't help... It's a question of mental barriers to intimacy, not one of bonding.


----------



## ZDog377

So we finally had something happen that could be the end of everything. We have been wanting to start a budget for a while and I kept on telling her I needed her credit card statements so I could figure things out. She kept on pushing it off, saying the balance wasn't much and not to worry about it. I finally told her today that I wanted access to her accounts so I could get the info I needed or I was cancelling her vacation. 

I was able to log in tonight and saw that the balance was for almost $3500. I can only see back 18 months but I am having her call Monday to get statements from the beginning of the account. I went on a slight rant with her because I have never been anything other than transparent with her about money. I'm also having her pull all her credit reports Monday as well so I can see if she is lying about anything else. 

After this recent info, I'm considering going to see a lawyer for at least an initial consult on divorce on Monday. She is going back to work finally so there will be money to put towards this debt along with everything else. 

She says she didn't want to tell me sooner because she wanted to try and handle it herself then she got nervous with how I would react.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

@farsidejunky

Far has personal experience with financial infidelity, Z.


----------



## farsidejunky

This is such a double edged sword, Z.

On one side is the fact that she chose to spend the money.

On the other side is the fact that she knew you would be angry, so she chose to hide it.

When my wife did this to me the third time (with me bailing her out the first two), I told her that she had a choice. She could either be 100% responsible for the debt she incurred (truck payment on a vehicle I did not want, credit cards, pet expenses, etc.) which she could not afford on her current or even potential salary, or she could turn the finances over to me. 

She was mad, prideful, resistant. She tried to gaslight me, called me controlling, etc., so I let her stew for about 6 hours on it. Then I involved her parents. I treated it much like physical infidelity in that I confronted, exposed when she resisted stopping, etc. I was prepared to walk. 

Later that night, we had a discussion. She relented, and turned everything over to me. We also had to start to seriously deal with her habits of self medicating through spending and eating. It has not been fun, and she still struggles with it. We have not had any issues with the finances since May of last year, which was the 4th time she did it. 

I don't want to leave my wife. That said, I am unsure what I will do if she does it again. I think my likely course of action will be to turn all of her debts over to her, and she can either sink or swim. 

Z, you need to be incredibly clear in this. Look at my example: 4 times I have gone through this in our 12 years being together. I would make it clear that you will help her if she turn over the finances to you, and if she refuses, you will not help her with any of them, to include her student loans. Not your circus, not your monkeys, if that makes sense. 

Just some food for thought.


----------



## jld

Wow, that would be a huge act of submission on her part, to hand over all financial authority to you, Z. 

What do you think are the chances she would do it?


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Wow, that would be a huge act of submission on her part, to hand over all financial authority to you, Z.
> 
> What do you think are the chances she would do it?


Depends if she has a choice or not.


----------



## Nucking Futs

farsidejunky said:


> This is such a double edged sword, Z.
> 
> On one side is the fact that she chose to spend the money.
> 
> On the other side is the fact that she knew you would be angry, so she chose to hide it.
> 
> When my wife did this to me the third time (with me bailing her out the first two), I told her that she had a choice. She could either be 100% responsible for the debt she incurred (truck payment on a vehicle I did not want, credit cards, pet expenses, etc.) which she could not afford on her current or even potential salary, or she could turn the finances over to me.
> 
> She was mad, prideful, resistant. She tried to gaslight me, called me controlling, etc., so I let her stew for about 6 hours on it. Then I involved her parents. I treated it much like physical infidelity in that I confronted, exposed when she resisted stopping, etc. I was prepared to walk.
> 
> Later that night, we had a discussion. She relented, and turned everything over to me. We also had to start to seriously deal with her habits of self medicating through spending and eating. It has not been fun, and she still struggles with it. We have not had any issues with the finances since May of last year, which was the 4th time she did it.
> 
> I don't want to leave my wife. That said, I am unsure what I will do if she does it again. I think my likely course of action will be to turn all of her debts over to her, and she can either sink or swim.
> 
> Z, you need to be incredibly clear in this. Look at my example: 4 times I have gone through this in our 12 years being together. I would make it clear that you will help her if she turn over the finances to you, and if she refuses, you will not help her with any of them, to include her student loans. Not your circus, not your monkeys, if that makes sense.
> 
> Just some food for thought.


In most if not all states, debts incurred during the marriage are marital debts. The only way you can make her debts her problem and not yours is to divorce her and get her to agree to take all her debts. If she doesn't agree you're on the hook for at least half of what she's already accumulated. If she's a stay at home mom the judge will gift you with all the debt.

I would suggest you give her two options: Either get a full time job at a salary high enough to cover 50% of monthly expenses to include child care and 100% of payment on her debt including the student loan and turn over all finance to you or you divorce to protect your own and the childrens future. And btw, set a fraud alert with the credit bureaus for both of you.

Has anything improved on the intimacy front?


----------



## Nucking Futs

Btw, in my county school starts today and they're about 100 teachers short. They're covering up the shortfall with substitutes but they would fall all over themselves to offer your wife a job if she applied. It may not be the same in your county, I'm sure there must be school systems in the US that are fully staffed, but I'd be willing to bet if she got served with divorce papers and the only way to stop it was to get a job she'd get a job.


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> In most if not all states, debts incurred during the marriage are marital debts. The only way you can make her debts her problem and not yours is to divorce her and get her to agree to take all her debts. If she doesn't agree you're on the hook for at least half of what she's already accumulated. If she's a stay at home mom the judge will gift you with all the debt.
> 
> I would suggest you give her two options: Either get a full time job at a salary high enough to cover 50% of monthly expenses to include child care and 100% of payment on her debt including the student loan and turn over all finance to you or you divorce to protect your own and the childrens future. And btw, set a fraud alert with the credit bureaus for both of you.
> 
> Has anything improved on the intimacy front?


It will go nowhere with suggestions like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> It will go nowhere with suggestions like that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've told you this before and I'm sure I'll be telling you again in the future: some marriages are not worth saving. I don't know if this marriage is or isn't yet but so far I'm not seeing her as much of a wife. Maybe a good mother, not great since she seems to prioritize the kids lower than her activities, but adequate. But a dismal failure as a wife.


----------



## farsidejunky

Nucking Futs said:


> Has anything improved on the intimacy front?


Are you asking me or Z?


----------



## Nucking Futs

farsidejunky said:


> Are you asking me or Z?


Z. I know I quoted you but I was talking to Z. Confusing, isn't it.


----------



## farsidejunky

Nucking Futs said:


> Z. I know I quoted you but I was talking to Z. Confusing, isn't it.


Especially with my questionable intellect!


----------



## Nucking Futs

farsidejunky said:


> Especially with my questionable intellect!


Don't be ridiculous. Your name and avatar are all the proof of your high intelligence anyone could need. :smthumbup:

Doesn't say anything about maturity though...:grin2:


----------



## ZDog377

Intimacy hasn't changed much. She is still OK with sex every now and then, but it has to be quick. As far as non-sexual touching, things are definitely still lacking. We will hold hands in the car, but not much more than that. As an example, I had recently been gone all most two weeks and then came home. I tried to kiss her four times before I got anything more than a kiss on the cheek. Now she's on vacation with the kids and there is a chance that I won't see her until a week from today depending on my schedule for next week. She doesn't seem bothered by it at all. 

We talked on the way to our vacation. She says that she never really got anything from sex, even with previous partners. She mainly talks now about how things will be different once she has her weight loss surgery. That's one of the reasons I couldn't go on vacation with her and the kids, I need to save up my vacation time to take off when she has her surgery. 

I'm also concerned that she was hesitant in calling to get all the statements from her credit card account. She started to bring up the controlling argument but then it died off when I asked her if she was trying to hide something.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*

So in other words, she still has very little interest in your non sexual touch either.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> It will go nowhere with suggestions like that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It will definitely go somewhere, it has been nowhere for nearly a year. Yes, three more says is a year where things haven't become better more than a few days or weeks at best.


----------



## ZDog377

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



farsidejunky said:


> So in other words, she still has very little interest in your non sexual touch either.


Yeah, I would agree. I can't remember the last time we had a makeout session or even more than 2-3 kisses in a row. Since talking obviously gets us nowhere, I'm planning on writing her a letter this weekend and giving it to her on Monday. I'm just going to explain what I'm feeling and what I need from her to want to stay in this relationship. I'm going to give her probably a one month time frame to at least show me she is working towards it. I don't know what to do other than that....


----------



## Livvie

Your wife and kids went on vacation and you had to stay home and work because you will be using your vacation time to take care of her after she has weight loss surgery.... And she doesn't want to even touch you..


----------



## jld

It sounds like you really want her to take responsibility for this relationship. 

All my advice has been geared towards *your* taking responsibility for it, and inspiring her passion.

If I did not want to be physically close to my husband, getting a letter from him saying what he needs to stay married would not be very inspiring to me. If I felt fear of losing my lifestyle, I might try to comply, at least in the short term. But there would be no genuine passion ignited.

Would her compliance out of fear be enough for you, Z?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Livvie

jld said:


> It sounds like you really want her to take responsibility for this relationship.
> 
> All my advice has been geared towards *your* taking responsibility for it, and inspiring her passion.
> 
> If I did not want to be physically close to my husband, getting a letter from him saying what he needs to stay married would not be very inspiring to me. If I felt fear of losing my lifestyle, I might try to comply, at least in the short term. But there would be no genuine passion ignited.
> 
> Would her compliance out of fear be enough for you, Z?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It doesn't sound like this woman has any passion to be inspired. It might be like trying to get blood out of a stone.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

No, it sounds like he wants her to take responsibility for her part in the relationship. HUGE difference. I should have never reread this thread. Zdog, you need to reread this thread, see how hard you worked and stop trying to please some of these posters and your wife. Good lord, some of the advice in this thread is awful and has led you to being in the same state a year later. See, don't mix consequences with passion. It is a word game used to make people feel guilty. Being in debt, continually spending money, screwing up your kids future and yours is a good reason to have fear. Quit letting posters intertwine the two to confuse you.

No sex, is one issue.
No attempts to fit soul crushing debt, is another.

Continually trying to intertwine the two would make someone waste a year trying to fix problems incorrectly and fruitlessly......Oh....wait.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> It sounds like you really want her to take responsibility for this relationship.
> 
> All my advice has been geared towards *your* taking responsibility for it, and inspiring her passion.
> 
> If I did not want to be physically close to my husband, getting a letter from him saying what he needs to stay married would not be very inspiring to me. If I felt fear of losing my lifestyle, I might try to comply, at least in the short term. But there would be no genuine passion ignited.
> 
> Would her compliance out of fear be enough for you, Z?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


ZDog this poster is notorious for giving very dangerous advice to men. This advice continues in that vein. I also think the letter is a bad idea, but not for the reasons given. Your wife has shown you how she feels, or really doesn't, about you. What good would the letter do?


----------



## MarriedTex

phillybeffandswiss said:


> No sex, is one issue.
> No attempts to fit soul crushing debt, is another.
> 
> Continually trying to intertwine the two would make someone waste a year trying to fix problems incorrectly and fruitlessly......Oh....wait.


They are actually intertwined, Philly.

ZDog has a wife who believes she is an entitled princess. She can ignore the consequences of not putting in effort because ZDog is always their to pick up the pieces.

Crushing student debt....no problem, she'll go volunteer at school while ZDog picks up the finances.

Running up the credit card....no problem, until ZDog starts asking questions about the bills.

No sex.....no problem. I got ZDog wrapped around my finger. I don't have to put in any effort anymore.

No discipline, no weight control.....No problem. I'll have ZDog's insurance (or ZDog himself) pay for surgery to fix the consequences of not being able to take care of myself and then have him spend his vacation time taking care of me.

ZDog, my friend, you are a patsy. Your boundaries with your wife are horrible, and she faces no consequences for treating you poorly. Of course, everyone has their faults and their crosses to bear. What infuriates me (and what should infuriate you as well) is the lack of recognition she has for your contributions to her well-being. 

Of course, we're only hearing one side of the story. But this seems to be about as one-sided of a relationship as I've ever seen on TAM. The only way it will change is if you pick yourself up, resolve that you are worth WAY more than she is give you and set expectations for the relationship accordingly.

Your only other alternative is to work through another 30 to 40 years of her crap and then finally bask in the glow of the sweet release of death. It will never change unless you change.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

No, they are separate issues. Neither needs the other for the same problems to occur. The purposeful chicken and egg intertwining has caused more issues in my estimation. You believe what you want, I will believe what I want.


----------



## Catherine602

Are you aware of the possible effects of bariatric surgery on marriage? From what I've read, it is not uniformly good. Many marriages dissolve as a result of the change in the appearance of one partner. 

I don't think you should count on the surgery to have a positive impact on our marriage. You may need MC to sort things out. 

If I remember correctly, you and your wife have debt problems that she has been resistant to deal with? IMO, you should use the money you are saving to pay off the debt before considering surgery. 

The surgery is elective and can be delayed until the debt is paid and your relationship stabilized. A delay will not harm her. 

Besides, an elective procedure that requires more resources spent on her seems to fit her tendency to poor financial choices. She is already responsible for putting the family in a financial hole that she makes little effort to resolve. 

A sensible approach that supports the family is to pay the debt first. She won't do it but you have no reason to be reckless. 

You are both unhappy now and since you are tied together, anything you do should support the union. Spending thousands on bariatric surgery may make her happy but what about you. 

I doubt it will have positive longterm effects on your marriage. What do you imagine will happen to your relationship post surgery. 

There is a probability that you will end up D'ed and responsible for 50% or more of the marital debt. It is nice to be optimistic, if there is a reasonable chance of success. 

Why not wait for indications of a positive trajectory in your marriage before getting into more debt?


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ZDog377 said:


> Yeah, I would agree. I can't remember the last time we had a makeout session or even more than 2-3 kisses in a row. Since talking obviously gets us nowhere, I'm planning on writing her a letter this weekend and giving it to her on Monday. I'm just going to explain what I'm feeling and what I need from her to want to stay in this relationship. I'm going to give her probably a one month time frame to at least show me she is working towards it. I don't know what to do other than that....


I couldn't remain in a relationship where my wife only tolerated me. How can you?


----------



## ZDog377

Catherine602 said:


> Are you aware of the possible effects of bariatric surgery on marriage? From what I've read, it is not uniformly good. Many marriages dissolve as a result of the change in the appearance of one partner.
> 
> I don't think you should count on the surgery to have a positive impact on our marriage. You may need MC to sort things out.
> 
> If I remember correctly, you and your wife have debt problems that she has been resistant to deal with? IMO, you should use the money you are saving to pay off the debt before considering surgery.
> 
> The surgery is elective and can be delayed until the debt is paid and your relationship stabilized. A delay will not harm her.
> 
> Besides, an elective procedure that requires more resources spent on her seems to fit her tendency to poor financial choices. She is already responsible for putting the family in a financial hole that she makes little effort to resolve.
> 
> A sensible approach that supports the family is to pay the debt first. She won't do it but you have no reason to be reckless.
> 
> You are both unhappy now and since you are tied together, anything you do should support the union. Spending thousands on bariatric surgery may make her happy.
> 
> I doubt it will have positive longterm effects on your marriage. What do you imagine will happen to your relationship post surgery.
> 
> There is a probability that you will end up D'ed and responsible for 50% or more of the marital debt. It is nice to be optimistic, if there is a reasonable chance of success.
> 
> Why not wait for indications of a positive trajectory in your marriage before getting into more debt?


She has joined a support group on Facebook for the surgery and I've joined the group as well. We have talked that it is a big change and it has been brought up the divorce rate after the surgery. The reason we are looking at doing it before the end of the year is that our out of pocket is just about met so we would have very little to pay for this surgery. I feel it needs to happen though because she is almost double what weight she was when we met.


----------



## ZDog377

NobodySpecial said:


> ZDog this poster is notorious for giving very dangerous advice to men. This advice continues in that vein. I also think the letter is a bad idea, but not for the reasons given. Your wife has shown you how she feels, or really doesn't, about you. What good would the letter do?


I want the letter just so it is crystal clear what I am looking for. This way there is no question what needs done or where things are going from this point forward. 
@farsidejunky, I really don't know how I'm in it anymore. I guess I've just been really busy with working and things like that the past couple months to really notice it. 
@MarriedTex, sex has not been completely shut off. It's just not the type/effort I prefer. She did let me do some oral on her the other day but I can't remember the last time she gave me oral. She says it's now disgusting. 

I've told her many times, I want to see her show me that she wants to be married. I've said I feel more like FWBs/room mates than married right now. Her response was "if I didn't want to be here, I would have already left".


----------



## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> I want the letter just so it is crystal clear what I am looking for. This way there is no question what needs done or where things are going from this point forward.


I think if you give her the letter, she is likely to find an attorney of her own and do whatever she can to screw you over as much as possible. Your wife sound like an extremely self-centered woman lacking on compassion or concern for you. From what you have posted, you are her source of whatever she wants. She doesn't feel any desire to please you. It is all about her and if you aren't going to give her what she wants, watch out. And do mean watch out.

Do not give her a heads up. Get an attorney. Put aside money for the divorce. Play nice until you have the funds to divorce her, then give her a letter, so you will be in a position to defend yourself if she does what I think she will do.

She has control of her child support money and has credit cards. She would rack up more debt, that you would be responsible for, to pay an attorney. She is the type that would do whatever she thought it would take with no regard to paying it off.

And finally, I don't think a letter has any chance whatsoever of changing her mind to be a better person and a better wife. There is no history of you following through on any consequences. She will just laugh it off or find herself an attorney and leave you. Then suddenly she will lose the weight and prepare to find another source.


----------



## NobodySpecial

ZDog377 said:


> I want the letter just so it is crystal clear what I am looking for. This way there is no question what needs done or where things are going from this point forward.


Let's say she does the things in the letter, checks off the boxes. Is that enough?


----------



## ZDog377

NobodySpecial said:


> Let's say she does the things in the letter, checks off the boxes. Is that enough?


It's enough to get me to believe that things are going in the right direction. I'm going to take this a month at a time. 

She knows how I feel after I saw the credit card statement. I've told her this hurts more than anything she's ever done. It will be interesting to see what else is on the statements that she gets in the mail.

I really have no desire to talk to her while she is on this trip either. It's been planned for at least two months and yesterday was the first time she thanked me for it. Her hotel is free, the rental car is free, the flights were $12/each (which I paid for), all she has to do is pay for food and gas......


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Honestly, words can be misconstrued much easier in writing than in verbal communication. It's almost like you are drawing up a contract with stipulations she must sign. Sorry, if I get to this point in my marriage I am out. Love should be about mutual understanding and work, not business dealings. This is where it feels your marriage has gone in this last year, a business deal. You do this for me, I'll do this for you. Sorry, I wouldn't live this way for love, sex or family. People would just have to be angry, call me a coward and a quitter.


----------



## jld

Livvie said:


> It doesn't sound like this woman has any passion to be inspired. It might be like trying to get blood out of a stone.


If he cannot inspire her, then I would advise divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



farsidejunky said:


> I couldn't remain in a relationship where my wife only tolerated me. How can you?


Its sad, but I know the main reason is because I will be financially screwed if I leave. She will win out because she has the kids and she is just starting back to work. 
Everything that I've busted my rear end for will be gone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

That shows that you value money over happiness.

That is okay, as long as you are honest with yourself about it.


----------



## ZDog377

farsidejunky said:


> That shows that you value money over happiness.
> 
> That is okay, as long as you are honest with yourself about it.


I guess I should rephrase then. I know money isn't everything. I guess it is more of a pride thing. I don't want to give up on things, I keep thinking there is something more I can do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NotEasy

Pride as the driver here I can understand. You need to understand though that pride will never be satisified, follow this path and you may follow it downwards for life. Depressing thought.


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## Catherine602

@ZDog377 why make a longterm investment, surgery, on what is likely to be a short relationship? It does not make any sense. 

You will be screwed financially if you leave so why are you saving for an elective surgery to fix a problem that has less costly solutions. Why not save and pay off debt. That will open up options that seem impossible now. 

If the marriage remains unhappy and if you D, you will not feel good about giving so much for so little. Do you think she will love you because you are making yet another financial sacrifice. Suppose things stay the same after the surgery? 

Do something for yourself Z, hold off on the surgery. It is a matter of respecting and loving yourself. It is not a big step but it takes a monumental change in the way you are thinking.

You matter as much as your wife but you can't tell by balance of give and take in the relationship. She does not appreciate what you do for her now so don't give more.


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## john117

Livvie said:


> Your wife and kids went on vacation and you had to stay home and work because you will be using your vacation time to take care of her after she has weight loss surgery.... And she doesn't want to even touch you..


That's a reason for divorce, right there...


----------



## john117

phillybeffandswiss said:


> No, it sounds like he wants her to take responsibility for her part in the relationship. HUGE difference. I should have never reread this thread. Zdog, you need to reread this thread, see how hard you worked and stop trying to please some of these posters and your wife. Good lord, some of the advice in this thread is awful and has led you to being in the same state a year later. See, don't mix consequences with passion. It is a word game used to make people feel guilty. Being in debt, continually spending money, screwing up your kids future and yours is a good reason to have fear. Quit letting posters intertwine the two to confuse you.
> 
> No sex, is one issue.
> No attempts to fit soul crushing debt, is another.
> 
> Continually trying to intertwine the two would make someone waste a year trying to fix problems incorrectly and fruitlessly......Oh....wait.


This++


----------



## john117

farsidejunky said:


> That shows that you value money over happiness.
> 
> That is okay, as long as you are honest with yourself about it.


Depending on his and her income, a divorce could send both to the poorhouse. 

Bitter is better than bitter and broke.


----------



## ZDog377

Catherine602 said:


> @ZDog377 why make a longterm investment, surgery, on what is likely to be a short relationship? It does not make any sense.
> 
> You will be screwed financially if you leave so why are you saving for an elective surgery to fix a problem that has less costly solutions. Why not save and pay off debt. That will open up options that seem impossible now.
> 
> If the marriage remains unhappy and if you D, you will not feel good about giving so much for so little. Do you think she will love you because you are making yet another financial sacrifice. Suppose things stay the same after the surgery?
> 
> Do something for yourself Z, hold off on the surgery. It is a matter of respecting and loving yourself. It is not a big step but it takes a monumental change in the way you are thinking.
> 
> You matter as much as your wife but you can't tell by balance of give and take in the relationship. She does not appreciate what you do for her now so don't give more.



If we wait until almost the end of the year, the surgery will possibly be free or at the most $1-200. What are the less costly solutions? She has tried many diets, even under advice from a doctor. The kids will also need a mother that is healthy if we divorce so this helps out that way. 

I don't know how things will be after surgery. I know there will be things to work through. 

We have talked about the financial end of everything over the past two days and she is willing to give me financial control of everything. I'll have this weekend to sit down and come up with a plan. This is all provided I don't see anything weird when her credit reports come back or the rest of the credit card statements come back. If those show anything questionable, I'm definitely out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602

ZDog377 said:


> If we wait until almost the end of the year, the surgery will possibly be free or at the most $1-200. What are the less costly solutions? She has tried many diets, even under advice from a doctor. The kids will also need a mother that is healthy if we divorce so this helps out that way.
> 
> I don't know how things will be after surgery. I know there will be things to work through.
> 
> We have talked about the financial end of everything over the past two days and she is willing to give me financial control of everything. I'll have this weekend to sit down and come up with a plan. This is all provided I don't see anything weird when her credit reports come back or the rest of the credit card statements come back. If those show anything questionable, I'm definitely out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are a good man and father, that is very clear. Your concern about your children having a healthy mom makes sense. 

I hope she adheres to the financial plan. It sounds like she has tried dieting which is less costly. However, the surgery is not a magical solution. 

She will still have to control her eating. I don't know the stats but she can overeat and gain weight over the years, even after surgery. 

I believe there is a TAM member who has had the surgery. I hope they see your thread and comment if they are still here. 

Are you taking care of yourself? I think you should take some of your focus from your wife and put it on yourself. That's the best model of a man and father for your children.


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## ZDog377

Catherine602 said:


> You are a good man and father, that is very clear. Your concern about your children having a healthy mom makes sense.
> 
> I hope she adheres to the financial plan. It sounds like she has tried dieting which is less costly. However, the surgery is not a magical solution.
> 
> She will still have to control her eating. I don't know the stats but she can overeat and gain weight over the years, even after surgery.
> 
> I believe there is a TAM member who has had the surgery. I hope they see your thread and comment if they are still here.
> 
> Are you taking care of yourself? I think you should take some of your focus from your wife and put it on yourself. That's the best model of a man and father for your children.


Yeah, I'm trying to take care of myself. I actually have a couple of doctor appointments scheduled for Monday. Just trying to get some things done around the house though while I don't have any interruptions.


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## Catherine602

ZDog377 said:


> Yeah, I'm trying to take care of myself. I actually have a couple of doctor appointments scheduled for Monday. Just trying to get some things done around the house though while I don't have any interruptions.


"Do. Or do not. There is no try." 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ4yd2W50No


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## ZDog377

So I have something to add. When I got home Friday, there was a handwritten note for me on the kitchen table. She told me that she has finally realized she has become very distant and she thinks it started with her aunt's passing. It then became worse when a good friend of ours died at only 38. She also admits that it is something she needs to work on. I acknowledged the note and told her I appreciate her taking the time to write it. 

She says she has also come up with a plan for paying off her credit card debt. I did pull the rest of the transactions since she has had the card. It looks like the main balance is from when she got it in 2013.


----------



## jld

Very nice, Z.


----------



## farsidejunky

If you want this to work, you need to nurture her unprompted transparency.

The fact that it was unprompted makes it that much more significant, Z.


----------



## jld

You said you were going to write her a letter? Did your letter inspire her response? Or was this completely her initiative?

If writing is a helpful tool for both of you, you may want to consider the _Retrouvaille_ program. It uses writing letters back and forth as a way to strengthen weakened marital bonds.

Marriage Help Program For Couples

And I believe it is all the kindness you have shown her over the years that prompted her note to you, Z. If you had been a complete jerk all this time, I doubt she would have bothered.


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> You said you were going to write her a letter? Did your letter inspire her response? Or was this completely her initiative?
> 
> If writing is a helpful tool for both of you, you may want to consider the _Retrouvaille_ program. It uses writing letters back and forth as a way to strengthen weakened marital bonds.
> 
> Marriage Help Program For Couples
> 
> And I believe it is all the kindness you have shown her over the years that prompted her note to you, Z. If you had been a complete jerk all this time, I doubt she would have bothered.


I didn't write her the letter yet. I was going to write it tonight. I wanted her to enjoy her time away because I know things have been rough lately.


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I didn't write her the letter yet. I was going to write it tonight. I wanted her to enjoy her time away because I know things have been rough lately.


Then it was truly unprompted, from her heart.

Be proud of that, Z. You earned that. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

Z,

A step upward in behavior all around. Hers and yours. 

Far and JLD are both telling you to nurture the spirit of candor in your marriage. 

So the letter - the tone needs to be - that this is solely about you helping her. You might acknowledge that - we ALL want stuff is beyond our budget and you don't begrudge her those desires. 

That said - children are a big responsibility and you want to work with her to balance near term desires with the reality of long term educational costs. 

So this next bit - you can embrace it or not - but - your wife already knows she messed up. So be - gentle. 

The theme of 'if you do this again I'm divorcing you' - I really really really hope you don't do that. 

Because you don't need to. Real Leadership is not coercive. 




jld said:


> Then it was truly unprompted, from her heart.
> 
> Be proud of that, Z. You earned that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> Real Leadership is not coercive.


----------



## ZDog377

MEM11363 said:


> Z,
> 
> A step upward in behavior all around. Hers and yours.
> 
> Far and JLD are both telling you to nurture the spirit of candor in your marriage.
> 
> So the letter - the tone needs to be - that this is solely about you helping her. You might acknowledge that - we ALL want stuff is beyond our budget and you don't begrudge her those desires.
> 
> That said - children are a big responsibility and you want to work with her to balance near term desires with the reality of long term educational costs.
> 
> So this next bit - you can embrace it or not - but - your wife already knows she messed up. So be - gentle.
> 
> The theme of 'if you do this again I'm divorcing you' - I really really really hope you don't do that.
> 
> Because you don't need to. Real Leadership is not coercive.


I think she knows by now how mad I am about the credit card mess. The letter is going to be more so she knows how much I care about her and the kids. I think there are times she doesn't believe me because I'm not devoting every waking hour to the kids. I just found out that Tuesday after pre-K orientation for our three year old that she needs to stay at the school for a couple hours and do PTO stuff. Then she has a three hour training to do online along with training away from home possibly Friday in addition to Wednesday and Thursday. 

This is the part that sucks, I feel like things are going good and then she has to spring this stuff on me.


----------



## Livvie

What is the training for?

Intensive PTO volunteering is usually by women who have their finances under control and have extra time to give AFTER attending to their financial and partnership/time responsibilities.


----------



## ZDog377

Livvie said:


> What is the training for?
> 
> Intensive PTO volunteering is usually by women who have their finances under control and have extra time to give AFTER attending to their financial and partnership/time responsibilities.


The training is for her new job. I guess I'm more frustrated that I thought we would spend some time together this week and now much won't get to happen.


----------



## MEM2020

Z,
1. Keep it short. Max one page.
2. Give her some room to come up with a plan.
3. Suggest a date to discuss the plan.

It's not a bad idea to say that you don't like feeling 'taken for granted'. And that - you are going to look for signs that she actually values the marriage - as opposed to tolerating it.

That said Zdog - you yourself have a LOT of room for improvement, and it's unlikely you are going to see more improvement from Z2, than you see in the mirror. 





ZDog377 said:


> I think she knows by now how mad I am about the credit card mess. The letter is going to be more so she knows how much I care about her and the kids. I think there are times she doesn't believe me because I'm not devoting every waking hour to the kids. I just found out that Tuesday after pre-K orientation for our three year old that she needs to stay at the school for a couple hours and do PTO stuff. Then she has a three hour training to do online along with training away from home possibly Friday in addition to Wednesday and Thursday.
> 
> This is the part that sucks, I feel like things are going good and then she has to spring this stuff on me.


----------



## ZDog377

MEM11363 said:


> Z,
> 1. Keep it short. Max one page.
> 2. Give her some room to come up with a plan.
> 3. Suggest a date to discuss the plan.
> 
> It's not a bad idea to say that you don't like feeling 'taken for granted'. And that - you are going to look for signs that she actually values the marriage - as opposed to tolerating it.
> 
> That said Zdog - you yourself have a LOT of room for improvement, and it's unlikely you are going to see more improvement from Z2, than you see in the mirror.


I know I have lots of room for improvement in the health category. I have appointments tomorrow to get some things checked out since I've been pretty burned out lately. 

Not trying to sound stupid, but what is the next thing to work on?

I realized today that it feels like I'm losing a best friend. We used to be able to talk to each other about everything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

We joke about how self control begins and ends at the groc store. If we buy it - we eat it. Maybe you both agree to avoid buying certain tempting foods. 

Eat healthier and exercise (walking with hand weights 'heavy hands' is good as you can do it together). 

This next bit - is so easy to describe and difficult for many folks to do. 

INVITE her to do stuff with you - walking - swimming - whatever and then don't make a thing of it if she declines. Go do it yourself. 

No guilt trips - no pressure. 

You are worried about WAY too much stuff you can't control. 

Oh yeah - in the budget - give her enough money to manage her basic life without having to ask your permission to get her hair cut - or buy lunch out now and then. 

You can revisit the budget when she gets a job. 

Did you ever take a crack at written rules for the kids? Fighting about how to manage the kids is hard on a marriage. 





ZDog377 said:


> I know I have lots of room for improvement in the health category. I have appointments tomorrow to get some things checked out since I've been pretty burned out lately.
> 
> Not trying to sound stupid, but what is the next thing to work on?
> 
> I realized today that it feels like I'm losing a best friend. We used to be able to talk to each other about everything.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

MEM11363 said:


> We joke about how self control begins and ends at the groc store. If we buy it - we eat it. Maybe you both agree to avoid buying certain tempting foods.
> 
> Eat healthier and exercise (walking with hand weights 'heavy hands' is good as you can do it together).
> 
> This next bit - is so easy to describe and difficult for many folks to do.
> 
> INVITE her to do stuff with you - walking - swimming - whatever and then don't make a thing of it if she declines. Go do it yourself.
> 
> No guilt trips - no pressure.
> 
> You are worried about WAY too much stuff you can't control.
> 
> Oh yeah - in the budget - give her enough money to manage her basic life without having to ask your permission to get her hair cut - or buy lunch out now and then.
> 
> You can revisit the budget when she gets a job.
> 
> Did you ever take a crack at written rules for the kids? Fighting about how to manage the kids is hard on a marriage.


We have not done written rules for the kids. She did mention something about trying to make a chore chart this week when I talked to her earlier today. I would say if that isn't our first thing we argue about, it is definitely our second. It's usually over the oldest too. 

I have no problem giving her money in the budget to do stuff for herself. Honestly, I don't know where all of it has been going. She gets roughly $700/month child support and the only thing that comes out of that should be Afflac. I take care of all the other bills. I just want to make sure her credit card gets paid down and she starts to get on a payment schedule for her loans. I've told her I would like to start saving money now that she has a job since we are almost making it work with one income. I'm the one financing any projects around home right now.


----------



## MEM2020

That list - tying privileges to performance is your surest path to minimizing this parenting friction. 

The purpose of teaching the kids cause and effect is NOT to punish it is to prepare them for the real world. 

You work - THEN you get paid.

You shower after a game and THEN you get to play video games. 

The tone needs to be: we want you to have a fun childhood WHILE learning basic rules of engagement in parallel.

But - to GET your wife to support you - YOU are going to need to GIVE her something. 

She agrees to the give and take of consequences. And you commit to be calm about enforcement. Yelling at the kids - is lowering her respect for you. 

And if the oldest is really hard to - collaborate with - then you keep the remotes locked up - he gets them when he earns them - and you lock them back up end of day. 

But you only go that route if he is flat out refusing to cooperate. 




ZDog377 said:


> We have not done written rules for the kids. She did mention something about trying to make a chore chart this week when I talked to her earlier today. I would say if that isn't our first thing we argue about, it is definitely our second. It's usually over the oldest too.
> 
> I have no problem giving her money in the budget to do stuff for herself. Honestly, I don't know where all of it has been going. She gets roughly $700/month child support and the only thing that comes out of that should be Afflac. I take care of all the other bills. I just want to make sure her credit card gets paid down and she starts to get on a payment schedule for her loans. I've told her I would like to start saving money now that she has a job since we are almost making it work with one income. I'm the one financing any projects around home right now.


----------



## ZDog377

One question though......they get home from vacation today. She calls me this morning and first thing she says is "I figured I better call so I don't get in trouble". I'm taking the younger two over to my dad's tomorrow because she has training on Wednesday and Thursday and they want to see the kids before they start school. I figured we could spend some time together because we haven't seen each other in a week. Her first thought is to try and plan something to do with the oldest. Not to mention that him and I will be spending all day tomorrow together pretty much. 

Honest opinions?


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> One question though......they get home from vacation today. She calls me this morning and first thing she says is "I figured I better call so I don't get in trouble". I'm taking the younger two over to my dad's tomorrow because she has training on Wednesday and Thursday and they want to see the kids before they start school. I figured we could spend some time together because we haven't seen each other in a week. Her first thought is to try and plan something to do with the oldest. Not to mention that him and I will be spending all day tomorrow together pretty much.
> 
> Honest opinions?


It sounds like she is working (complying) out of fear. You want her to work out of desire, correct?

What do you think you could do to inspire that desire?


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> It sounds like she is working (complying) out of fear. You want her to work out of desire, correct?
> 
> What do you think you could do to inspire that desire?


Right now, I don't think anything. She's already expressed how disappointed she is that she won't get to spend as much time with the kids now that she has to work. That's why she wants to use money from her aunt's passing to go back to school so she can do medical transcription from home. Then I hear how it's going to be so hard to trying to go to school and work at the same time. She also doesn't see her working as a way to save money and pay off bills. She's more focused on "hey, we have some extra money now let's take a trip". She doesn't get the same satisfaction I do paying off bills and saving money. I know this is way far off, but I'm the only one that's contributed to a retirement account so far. Obviously, she's a "live in the moment" type person and I like to plan for the future.


----------



## MarriedTex

ZDog,

You know what her core tendencies are. She will spend money, time and family resources on the things that make her feel good in the moment. This is an admirable quality, in some ways. We should all strive to squeeze the most enjoyment out of life possible.

Your fundamental challenge is that "making her husband happy" is not one of the things that floats to the list of things that help her squeeze that enjoyment out of life. Sure, you might be pleasant enough to have around. You certainly provide value by enabling her to enjoy more things. From my Internet perspective, it looks like she pays just enough attention to you to keep the spigot flowing and not much more. 

It is useless to try to change her. She will always revert to this baseline. Maybe she'll toe the line for awhile out of fear of losing her sugar daddy. But I sense that you're looking for a type of kindness and concern that is more proactive, genuine and lasting. 

If I were you, I'd familiarize myself with the legend of Sisyphus. His struggle will be a metaphor for the rest of your time that you share with your wife.


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> Right now, I don't think anything. She's already expressed how disappointed she is that she won't get to spend as much time with the kids now that she has to work. That's why she wants to use money from her aunt's passing to go back to school so she can do medical transcription from home. Then I hear how it's going to be so hard to trying to go to school and work at the same time. She also doesn't see her working as a way to save money and pay off bills. She's more focused on "hey, we have some extra money now let's take a trip". She doesn't get the same satisfaction I do paying off bills and saving money. I know this is way far off, but I'm the only one that's contributed to a retirement account so far. Obviously, she's a "live in the moment" type person and I like to plan for the future.


She is definitely a P, and you a J, in MBTI. This can really be a source of frustration in marriages.

As to her comment on having to call you, just say, "Thank you. I appreciate your checking in."


----------



## ZDog377

MarriedTex said:


> ZDog,
> 
> You know what her core tendencies are. She will spend money, time and family resources on the things that make her feel good in the moment. This is an admirable quality, in some ways. We should all strive to squeeze the most enjoyment out of life possible.
> 
> Your fundamental challenge is that "making her husband happy" is not one of the things that floats to the list of things that help her squeeze that enjoyment out of life. Sure, you might be pleasant enough to have around. You certainly provide value by enabling her to enjoy more things. From my Internet perspective, it looks like she pays just enough attention to you to keep the spigot flowing and not much more.
> 
> It is useless to try to change her. She will always revert to this baseline. Maybe she'll toe the line for awhile out of fear of losing her sugar daddy. But I sense that you're looking for a type of kindness and concern that is more proactive, genuine and lasting.
> 
> If I were you, I'd familiarize myself with the legend of Sisyphus. His struggle will be a metaphor for the rest of your time that you share with your wife.


 @MarriedTex, I agree with you about her core tendencies. I've been busting my rear trying to get things done around the house so we can have a nice outdoor space to do stuff in and relax. Her first problem...she doesn't like to relax. Second, we are getting rid of the kids swingset so we can put a fire pit in the middle of where an old swimming pool used to be. She told me if I'm getting rid of the swingset, I need to have something up for the kids to use that weekend. 

I think part of her problem is that she has seen both parents go through three marriages each I believe. She just views divorce as a "it didn't work out" type of thing. 

I did come up with a compromise for tomorrow night hopefully. I mentioned that we could go for a walk on the trail near our house and our oldest could come along and ride his bike. It doesn't get me 100% alone time with her, but he will probably be way up in front of us since he can't stand being last.


----------



## Holdingontoit

For whose benefit are you busting your butt? Did she ask for the nice outdoor space? Sounds like she did not. So you busted your butt working toward a goal for yourself that she does not share (she does not like to relax and she does not want the swing set taken down). And then you are upset that she is not rewarding your hard work with extra sex?

Now you suggested a walk. Does she like to walk, or is that another thing you like and she doesn't? Are you expecting her to reward you for taking the walk?

Sounds like you are still making covert contracts and still harboring unstated expectations. I predict you will find those behaviors will continue to produce frustration, resentment, dissatisfaction and unhappiness. But it is your life and you can keep doing the same things and expecting a different result for the rest of your life if that is your choice.


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## ZDog377

Holdingontoit said:


> For whose benefit are you busting your butt? Did she ask for the nice outdoor space? Sounds like she did not. So you busted your butt working toward a goal for yourself that she does not share (she does not like to relax and she does not want the swing set taken down). And then you are upset that she is not rewarding your hard work with extra sex?
> 
> Now you suggested a walk. Does she like to walk, or is that another thing you like and she doesn't? Are you expecting her to reward you for taking the walk?
> 
> Sounds like you are still making covert contracts and still harboring unstated expectations. I predict you will find those behaviors will continue to produce frustration, resentment, dissatisfaction and unhappiness. But it is your life and you can keep doing the same things and expecting a different result for the rest of your life if that is your choice.


I'm doing the outdoor space for both of us. She wanted somewhere to put the grill outside so I'm putting a small deck outside. She said we needed some place to store stuff, so I did the shed and am putting a deck off the back of that so we have more storage. She complains about it now but doesn't mind it when people come over and she gets to show it off. 

She likes to walk. That is why I suggested it. I figured it would work out good because I could get to spend time together with her and have family time as well. She has told me multiple times that me spending time with the kids and doing things with them is a huge turn on for her. 

I'm not the one that tries to make covert contracts. In fact, she told me today she needed to go get a pedicure because the bottom of the pool at the hotel was rough. I told her to let me know when she wanted to go so I could make sure to be there to take care of the kids. She follows it up with "maybe we can make some kind of deal....".


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## phillybeffandswiss

No, I do not agree you are holding covert contracts at all. It's okay to say you need more contact, create different scenarios to help in this area and then be disappointed when it fails. Then again, you'll latch onto this idea, to continue your self pity and self blame while this vicious cycle erodes your health and self confidence.

Well, I'll bow out again and hope you figure things out. Again go reread the thread so, you can see how far you really HAVEN'T come.


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I'm not the one that tries to make covert contracts. In fact, she told me today she needed to go get a pedicure because the bottom of the pool at the hotel was rough. I told her to let me know when she wanted to go so I could make sure to be there to take care of the kids. She follows it up with "maybe we can make some kind of deal....".


That is not a covert contract, though. Sounds like an _overt_ one.


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## ZDog377

So I came out today and told her how I felt about the weight loss surgery. I said that I felt jealous she was going to get it done and that it seemed like the easy way out. I also said that she's never tried a diet more than a week or two because once the weight loss slows down, she says it's not working. She promptly called her doctor and cancelled the psych eval and nutritionist appointment that she had scheduled for Tuesday and she says she's not going to do the surgery anymore. 

She cried a lot this morning but at the same time told me she was glad that I told her how I felt. She just wanted to drop it and not talk about it and she was on her way to work. It did feel good to finally tell her how I feel though......


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> So I came out today and told her how I felt about the weight loss surgery. I said that I felt jealous she was going to get it done and that it seemed like the easy way out. I also said that she's never tried a diet more than a week or two because once the weight loss slows down, she says it's not working. She promptly called her doctor and cancelled the psych eval and nutritionist appointment that she had scheduled for Tuesday and she says she's not going to do the surgery anymore.
> 
> She cried a lot this morning but at the same time told me she was glad that I told her how I felt. She just wanted to drop it and not talk about it and she was on her way to work. It did feel good to finally tell her how I feel though......


Wow, that's great that you were honest with each other. Transparency is powerful.


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## ZDog377

jld said:


> Wow, that's great that you were honest with each other. Transparency is powerful.


 @jld, it's be very damaging so far. I don't think I'm on board with using transparency. The past 24 hours have been pretty nasty with her just randomly crying and not talking to me unless she needs something. She made herself sick to the point where she threw up lunch today, but she swears nothing is wrong. She tells me it's like a gut punch and I've had to hear how her dreams for doing things next summer are ruined and that the main reason she feels upset is she thinks she let me down (no idea how though)......


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## MEM2020

Zdog,

If I understood correctly you are both very over weight. I understand that you prefer not to disclose your and her BMI.

That said, I'm fairly confident you know how hard it is to lose weight and keep it off via dieting. 

I don't get the sense that weight loss is a priority to you. But it is a priority for her. 

Why are you opposed to her having this surgery? Are you worried she wants to lose weight so she can more easily pair up if you two divorce?

I think it's dangerous to try and prevent a partner from self improvement. 






ZDog377 said:


> @jld, it's be very damaging so far. I don't think I'm on board with using transparency. The past 24 hours have been pretty nasty with her just randomly crying and not talking to me unless she needs something. She made herself sick to the point where she threw up lunch today, but she swears nothing is wrong. She tells me it's like a gut punch and I've had to hear how her dreams for doing things next summer are ruined and that the main reason she feels upset is she thinks she let me down (no idea how though)......


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## Livvie

I'm surprised a good doc be willing to perform this surgery if they knew she hasn't ever dieted for more than two weeks.

It's not without complications. My coworker had it done. It affects how you absorb nutrients and half of her hair fell out. After the surgery, you have to have the willpower to eat right and severely limit portions. She's a long way past surgery and she still takes daily stomach meds.


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## ZDog377

MEM2020 said:


> Zdog,
> 
> If I understood correctly you are both very over weight. I understand that you prefer not to disclose your and her BMI.
> 
> That said, I'm fairly confident you know how hard it is to lose weight and keep it off via dieting.
> 
> I don't get the sense that weight loss is a priority to you. But it is a priority for her.
> 
> Why are you opposed to her having this surgery? Are you worried she wants to lose weight so she can more easily pair up if you two divorce?
> 
> I think it's dangerous to try and prevent a partner from self improvement.



I'll admit that our BMI is both in the obese range. I know how hard it is to lose weight, I know the main reason I do not is that I'm lazy on many fronts (exercise and portion control). 

I'm not opposed to the surgery, I just see flashbacks of when she had the lap band surgery and nothing has changed. I'll be the first to admit I'm nervous about what could happen after. I can't predict the future though. 

I'm glad that she sees the need to do something. However, I told her I want to do it because she wants to. The only reasons she has given me so far is that so she can do more with the kids and so that I'm not embarrassed for me when she meets friends of mine. I mainly want her to get it done because I know her self image is a main source of our problems. 

Also, her and I are both members on a surgery group on FB. I've seen the results of what can happen if you don't manage things right. On the other hand, I've seen the issues come along with it as well.


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> @jld, it's be very damaging so far. I don't think I'm on board with using transparency. The past 24 hours have been pretty nasty with her just randomly crying and not talking to me unless she needs something. She made herself sick to the point where she threw up lunch today, but she swears nothing is wrong. She tells me it's like a gut punch and I've had to hear how her dreams for doing things next summer are ruined and that the main reason she feels upset is she thinks she let me down (no idea how though)......


That's good! Transparency is powerful medicine. It can bring about big reactions. The truth hurts, at least initially. Then it can start to heal.

Honestly, I think your transparency with her is the best gift you can give your marriage, Zdog. Please keep it up. Courage, young man!

And ask for her transparency in return. And be open and thankful when she gives it.

My goodness, do I ever feel hopeful for you two! Transparency can be the beginning of true healing in many areas of both of your individual lives, and certainly in your marriage. 

On weight loss surgery . . . Have you heard of Garth Davis, MD? He is a bariatric surgeon who runs a clinic for that in Houston. But he recommends people do a low fat, whole foods vegan diet instead, if they are at all willing. He wrote a book called _Proteinaholic_, where he talks about how his own diet change has transformed his life and thinking. Just FYI.


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## ZDog377

Livvie said:


> I'm surprised a good doc be willing to perform this surgery if they knew she hasn't ever dieted for more than two weeks.
> 
> It's not without complications. My coworker had it done. It affects how you absorb nutrients and half of her hair fell out. After the surgery, you have to have the willpower to eat right and severely limit portions. She's a long way past surgery and she still takes daily stomach meds.




My big concern is that she had lap band surgery I can't remember how many years ago and nothing really came of it. She had issues but they kept on telling her things were ok and not to work. She accepted this and didn't do anything. I became frustrated because she is strong willed and wouldn't let anything else die until she got her way but she was on this. I have the fear that the same will happen with this again. I can only hope she learned enough from last time to know what to look for this time.


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## MrsHolland

ZDog377 said:


> @jld, it's be very damaging so far. I don't think I'm on board with using transparency. The past 24 hours have been pretty nasty with her just randomly crying and not talking to me unless she needs something. She made herself sick to the point where she threw up lunch today, but she swears nothing is wrong. She tells me it's like a gut punch and I've had to hear how her dreams for doing things next summer are ruined and that the main reason she feels upset is she thinks she let me down (no idea how though)......


Sounds like she has a fear of failure. Or a fear of success, the two can look pretty similar.


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## ZDog377

MrsHolland said:


> Sounds like she has a fear of failure. Or a fear of success, the two can look pretty similar.


I think it's the fear of failure, she didn't have success before when she had the lap band done. The thing that confuses me is she doesn't want anybody to know it's going on. She says she will be OK telling everyone though if she has success. 

She's coming back around with the idea of going through with it again. I stressed that I want her to do it for herself first and everyone else after that.


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## ZDog377

So she's decided to go through with the surgery again. We had a long talk about it and I explained a lot of things to her about what I said. 

We've run into a different problem now. The sex has picked up, which I am very happy about. However, when I went to the doctor a few weeks ago they put me on a generic form of Lexapro for anxiety. Now actual sex is lasting way longer than it should. She's not complaining, but I can tell it's bothering her. Any suggestions on where to go from here?


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## turnera

Are you saying it's taking you longer to climax? If so, is she 'helping' you during the event? That might help you reach it faster so she's not having to spend more time during actual intercourse than is comfortable for her.


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## ZDog377

turnera said:


> Are you saying it's taking you longer to climax? If so, is she 'helping' you during the event? That might help you reach it faster so she's not having to spend more time during actual intercourse than is comfortable for her.


Yes, definitely longer to climax. I'd say I went from around five minutes on average to at least 25 minutes. She's helped one time by talking dirty but she doesn't do that all the time.


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## turnera

But she doesn't 'massage' you or anything? Without getting TMI, what exactly is going on?

And btw, if my H expected me to just lie there for *25* minutes while he pumped away...no way in hell! He knows full well that after about 4 or 5 minutes, it starts to hurt!


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## ZDog377

turnera said:


> But she doesn't 'massage' you or anything? Without getting TMI, what exactly is going on?
> 
> And btw, if my H expected me to just lie there for *25* minutes while he pumped away...no way in hell! He knows full well that after about 4 or 5 minutes, it starts to hurt!


Not much really, rubs my arms and grabs my hands but that's about it.


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## turnera

You mean she doesn't participate in the sex? She doesn't hold your penis and stroke it? Grab your crotch? Nothing? She just lies there? Why would you want to have sex with someone like that? You'd be better off just masturbating. Did she ever do more?


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## Nucking Futs

turnera said:


> You mean she doesn't participate in the sex? She doesn't hold your penis and stroke it? Grab your crotch? Nothing? She just lies there? Why would you want to have sex with someone like that? *You'd be better off just masturbating.* Did she ever do more?


25 minutes?


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## ZDog377

turnera said:


> You mean she doesn't participate in the sex? She doesn't hold your penis and stroke it? Grab your crotch? Nothing? She just lies there? Why would you want to have sex with someone like that? You'd be better off just masturbating. Did she ever do more?


She will say how good it feels and things like that but no grabbing anything unless she's on top. I'm to the point on telling her what helps me get off but it usually isn't listened to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spotthedeaddog

ZDog377 said:


> I think it's the fear of failure, she didn't have success before when she had the lap band done. The thing that confuses me is she doesn't want anybody to know it's going on. She says she will be OK telling everyone though if she has success.


Why would she adding public knowledge of feeling of failure and being inadequate and incapable in _any_ help her mood or self-esteem?


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## Spotthedeaddog

turnera said:


> And btw, if my H expected me to just lie there for *25* minutes while he pumped away...no way in hell! He knows full well that after about 4 or 5 minutes, it starts to hurt!


I really don't understand how some people can orgasm in 4-5 minutes. Used to find it very frustrating with my ex- (she'd only last 2 or 3, if I didn't pace things). It happened so much, I can imagine how women whose partners tend to be premature ejaculators feel... (except they don't normally spend 60-90 minutes getting their partner "in the mood")


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## Spotthedeaddog

ZDog377 said:


> So she's decided to go through with the surgery again. We had a long talk about it and I explained a lot of things to her about what I said.
> 
> We've run into a different problem now. The sex has picked up, which I am very happy about. However, when I went to the doctor a few weeks ago they put me on a generic form of Lexapro for anxiety. Now actual sex is lasting way longer than it should. She's not complaining, but I can tell it's bothering her. Any suggestions on where to go from here?


A lot of anti-depressants will put you in a state that prevents the emotional engagement - that's what they're for. Makes it much for difficult to get "into" the act the same way. Problem is even if you do lots of you-centered stimulation, the anti-depressants will also allow you to drop out of that state in almost an instant. It just how the dopamine/serotonin system works. 

About the best thing I can think (guess!) of is hypnosis and/or developing control over your mental state so you can selectively engage, without exposing yourself to overstimulation through anxiety thoughts.


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> So she's decided to go through with the surgery again. We had a long talk about it and I explained a lot of things to her about what I said.
> 
> We've run into a different problem now. The sex has picked up, which I am very happy about. However, when I went to the doctor a few weeks ago they put me on a generic form of Lexapro for anxiety. Now actual sex is lasting way longer than it should. She's not complaining, but I can tell it's bothering her. Any suggestions on where to go from here?


How about going off the meds, and using other methods to deal with the anxiety?


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## MJJEAN

The first anxiety med I tried made it difficult to reach orgasm. The second one I tried made orgasm impossible. The research I have done suggests that sexual side effects are very common. I suggest speaking to your doctor about using a different medication. You might go through a period of trial and error while trying different meds at different dosages until you find what works for you.


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## vel

Have you tried different positions? Some are better for lengthy sessions. And if it starts to hurt her, you should let her know to be verbal so you can stop. Better not damage the goods! Just finish in different ways, be creative.


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## ZDog377

vel said:


> Have you tried different positions? Some are better for lengthy sessions. And if it starts to hurt her, you should let her know to be verbal so you can stop. Better not damage the goods! Just finish in different ways, be creative.


Yes, we've tried different ones. Regular missionary is the only one that comes remotely close to doing anything. I've told her to let me know when it hurts, but I can usually tell when she's not feeling good anymore and I stop. She gets mad because she wants me to finish, but I don't want her to be hurting after.


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## ZDog377

spotthedeaddog said:


> I really don't understand how some people can orgasm in 4-5 minutes. Used to find it very frustrating with my ex- (she'd only last 2 or 3, if I didn't pace things). It happened so much, I can imagine how women whose partners tend to be premature ejaculators feel... (except they don't normally spend 60-90 minutes getting their partner "in the mood")


We have run into that problem as well. I prefer some foreplay to get in the mood a little but then she gets dry (believe me, I've suggested lube). That's why she always wants a quickie. I prefer a little to get warmed up beforehand. If I don't get off from the sex, she won't touch me down below after I've had a condom on.


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## ZDog377

jld said:


> How about going off the meds, and using other methods to deal with the anxiety?


I've cut down on the dose and the Dr was ok with it as long as it worked. I've tried just walking away and coming back in a few minutes to deal with the situation, I've also tried calmly talking about the situation instead of yelling about it. Neither one has worked with issues at home. 

I also have anxiety about work and I cannot figure out why. I've been at this job for almost five years but it seems like I'm constantly second guessing myself. I feel it goes back to my first job out of college where a guy I worked with was good friends with the boss and constantly told him every little thing I did wrong.


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## Duguesclin

ZDog,
Why do you have anxiety? Is it recent or have you been battling it for a while?

I would not just do what the doctor says. I would do my own research. The doctor is just a consultant. You are in charge of your health.

For the 25mn issue, I think it is your issue to resolve. Your wife might be able to help, but it is not her responsibility.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ZDog377

Duguesclin said:


> ZDog,
> Why do you have anxiety? Is it recent or have you been battling it for a while?
> 
> I would not just do what the doctor says. I would do my own research. The doctor is just a consultant. You are in charge of your health.
> 
> For the 25mn issue, I think it is your issue to resolve. Your wife might be able to help, but it is not her responsibility.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dug, I would say the anxiety has been going on for a while at home (year and a half maybe). We had a big fight back then where she was ready to move out that day and I've kind of had it ever since. It doesn't help that she's hard to read probably 75% of the time. The 10 year old is a lost cause right now. I try and correct him or anything like that, I'm being mean to him. Which I'm really not, but she gets mad because we can't get along.


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I've cut down on the dose and the Dr was ok with it as long as it worked. I've tried just walking away and coming back in a few minutes to deal with the situation, I've also tried calmly talking about the situation instead of yelling about it. Neither one has worked with issues at home.
> 
> I also have anxiety about work and I cannot figure out why. I've been at this job for almost five years but it seems like I'm constantly second guessing myself. I feel it goes back to my first job out of college where a guy I worked with was good friends with the boss and constantly told him every little thing I did wrong.


Have you thought about rereading this thread from the beginning, Z? I think some ideas you may have overlooked earlier might seem more useful now.


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## ZDog377

jld said:


> Have you thought about rereading this thread from the beginning, Z? I think some ideas you may have overlooked earlier might seem more useful now.


I'm honestly out of ideas at this point. I'm still looking for the job at home right now but not much is coming from it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

spotthedeaddog said:


> I really don't understand how some people can orgasm in 4-5 minutes. Used to find it very frustrating with my ex- (she'd only last 2 or 3, if I didn't pace things). It happened so much, I can imagine how women whose partners tend to be premature ejaculators feel... (except they don't normally spend 60-90 minutes getting their partner "in the mood")


Maybe TMI, but we spend a lot of time doing 'stuff' together for each other, and save the intercourse for last, after I've climaxed. So we're usually talking 20-30 minutes of everything else, which feels good for both of us, and then the last few minutes for him to climax.


----------



## turnera

ZDog377 said:


> Dug, I would say the anxiety has been going on for a while at home (year and a half maybe). We had a big fight back then where she was ready to move out that day and I've kind of had it ever since. It doesn't help that she's hard to read probably 75% of the time. The 10 year old is a lost cause right now. I try and correct him or anything like that, I'm being mean to him. Which I'm really not, but she gets mad because we can't get along.


Why aren't you discussing this in front of a therapist?


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I'm honestly out of ideas at this point. I'm still looking for the job at home right now but not much is coming from it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know you may feel overwhelmed. Try to find some time to relax this weekend, maybe take a walk. And then try to sit down and start rereading the whole thread.


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## ZDog377

turnera said:


> Why aren't you discussing this in front of a therapist?


My insurance won't cover it. Cash price is around $50/hour then add babysitter on top of it and you have close to $100 a visit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

How much will a divorce cost?


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## ZDog377

turnera said:


> How much will a divorce cost?


I agree, its something we need to budget/save for. Now that she is working we have a little cushion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

ZDog377 said:


> My insurance won't cover it. Cash price is around $50/hour then add babysitter on top of it and you have close to $100 a visit.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


$50 an hour for babysitting? Can't you co-op with another family for a couple hours a week?


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## ZDog377

john117 said:


> $50 an hour for babysitting? Can't you co-op with another family for a couple hours a week?


Three kids is at least ten an hour and the closest place is at least a half hour away in one direction.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Shimmers

Sorry but I've only read the last few pages of this 100+ page thread...

I am a doc. Whatever doc put you on Lexapro for your anxiety only increased it. SSRI's like Lexapro are absolutely notorious for prolonging orgasm or blocking orgasm. If I were you I would go back to him/her and ask if you can stop taking it.


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## ZDog377

Hope Shimmers said:


> Sorry but I've only read the last few pages of this 100+ page thread...
> 
> I am a doc. Whatever doc put you on Lexapro for your anxiety only increased it. SSRI's like Lexapro are absolutely notorious for prolonging orgasm or blocking orgasm. If I were you I would go back to him/her and ask if you can stop taking it.


What would you suggest instead? Counseling?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

ZDog377 said:


> What would you suggest instead? Counseling?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Frank discussions and a timetable.

Sex is the least of your concerns. Money, health, and overall your future as a family are far more important than getting sex on a regular basis. Maybe you can pull it off.

Sometimes it takes a crisis to wake up. I don't wish you one, but we had a crisis of sorts and resolved it. During the crisis I made sure to point to my wife that financially she's screwed (not really, she makes as much as I do and we have sizable savings) but if we split the house and sizable savings then she's the one to suffer ("how can I live in 3000 sq ft" lolz). I pointed this out very politely and patiently, and even had my daughters manipulate the conversation with her to tell her the same. 

Last week I had the first glimpse of my old wife in two or more years. For a whole weekend or more. I know she liked it as well as I did. Can we use it to build on? I don't know. One good weekend doesn't fix a decade of bad marriage. That's where frank discussion and a timetable help. You need to rebuild your marriage slow and steady. 

You're running out of time. Physically you're both ticking explosives. Emotionally, even worse. Sex is the least of your concerns. You and her should be your concerns instead. You need to track your progress, spend time together, and such. 

And all this because of a cat. Our crisis was cat related, so after taking crap from her about the cat damaging this or that I called in my house paint guy who came for an estimate and explained what cat scratches look like - that wasn't it. It would have been easy for me to have the Mormon Tabernacle Choir sing "told ya, wasn't the cat" but instead I distracted her from having to feel bad about being a beach. 

Pick your crisis and show her you can get it resolved. Maybe after a few, she'll get the message. At the end of the day, counselor is just talk. Talk never saved anyone. Action does. Lots of it.


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## ZDog377

john117 said:


> Frank discussions and a timetable.
> 
> Sex is the least of your concerns. Money, health, and overall your future as a family are far more important than getting sex on a regular basis. Maybe you can pull it off.
> 
> Sometimes it takes a crisis to wake up. I don't wish you one, but we had a crisis of sorts and resolved it. During the crisis I made sure to point to my wife that financially she's screwed (not really, she makes as much as I do and we have sizable savings) but if we split the house and sizable savings then she's the one to suffer ("how can I live in 3000 sq ft" lolz). I pointed this out very politely and patiently, and even had my daughters manipulate the conversation with her to tell her the same.
> 
> Last week I had the first glimpse of my old wife in two or more years. For a whole weekend or more. I know she liked it as well as I did. Can we use it to build on? I don't know. One good weekend doesn't fix a decade of bad marriage. That's where frank discussion and a timetable help. You need to rebuild your marriage slow and steady.
> 
> You're running out of time. Physically you're both ticking explosives. Emotionally, even worse. Sex is the least of your concerns. You and her should be your concerns instead. You need to track your progress, spend time together, and such.
> 
> And all this because of a cat. Our crisis was cat related, so after taking crap from her about the cat damaging this or that I called in my house paint guy who came for an estimate and explained what cat scratches look like - that wasn't it. It would have been easy for me to have the Mormon Tabernacle Choir sing "told ya, wasn't the cat" but instead I distracted her from having to feel bad about being a beach.
> 
> Pick your crisis and show her you can get it resolved. Maybe after a few, she'll get the message. At the end of the day, counselor is just talk. Talk never saved anyone. Action does. Lots of it.


I believe she realizes that she would be screwed if we were to divorce. She's admitted she can't afford the house and probably couldn't afford the van right now either. 

We've come up with a simple budget and are looking at following Dave Ramsey on how to work on debt. She's promised that she wants to use a portion of the money from her aunt to pay off some debts and for some house items. 

From what I can see she has cut down on the volunteering. We have been getting out more with just us and getting to spend time with other couples which we both enjoy. 

I'm not as concerned with the sex now as I was before. She will initiate activities now and not beg for me to hurry up and finish. 

I'm starting to watch what I eat more and we have even started to get our oldest paying more attention to what he eats as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Good progress. Two thoughts. One, wrt Dave Ramsey: I HIGHLY suggest using his envelope system. I've never come across a better way to realize just what you are spending and on what, and it keeps you from spending MORE than you've allotted to each category (unless you steal from a different category, and that will become clear very quickly). 

Two, wrt watching what you eat, now is the perfect time to get your kids involved in the kitchen! There are several shows about kids cooking now that you could watch together, or you could just pick out a recipe together, go shopping for the ingredients together, and then cook together!


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## ZDog377

turnera said:


> Good progress. Two thoughts. One, wrt Dave Ramsey: I HIGHLY suggest using his envelope system. I've never come across a better way to realize just what you are spending and on what, and it keeps you from spending MORE than you've allotted to each category (unless you steal from a different category, and that will become clear very quickly).
> 
> Two, wrt watching what you eat, now is the perfect time to get your kids involved in the kitchen! There are several shows about kids cooking now that you could watch together, or you could just pick out a recipe together, go shopping for the ingredients together, and then cook together!


Shouldn't be an issue getting the kids involved in the kitchen. The 10 year is already able to cook himself eggs for breakfast and the four year old is always helping her cook as well. The two year old helps sometimes but he's not talking yet so it makes things difficult sometimes. I know her and the oldest are always watching cooking shows.


----------



## NobodySpecial

turnera said:


> Good progress. Two thoughts. One, wrt Dave Ramsey: I HIGHLY suggest using his envelope system. I've never come across a better way to realize just what you are spending and on what, and it keeps you from spending MORE than you've allotted to each category (unless you steal from a different category, and that will become clear very quickly).
> 
> Two, wrt watching what you eat, now is the perfect time to get your kids involved in the kitchen! There are several shows about kids cooking now that you could watch together, or you could just pick out a recipe together, go shopping for the ingredients together, and then cook together!


We pay a lot of bills online. So we use YNAB.


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## turnera

NobodySpecial said:


> We pay a lot of bills online. So we use YNAB.


Oh, me too. I'm talking about the stuff you pay out of pocket, like haircuts or books or groceries.


----------



## ZDog377

NobodySpecial said:


> We pay a lot of bills online. So we use YNAB.


What is YNAB?


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## NobodySpecial

ZDog377 said:


> What is YNAB?


https://www.youneedabudget.com/


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## ZDog377

@john117, I brought up the baby sitting co-op to her the other day and she said she had been thinking about it too. The only problem is all of our friends have parents that are local when they want to go out for a night or something like that. I don't want to wear out using my dad and his wife for babysitting in case we really do need them sometime. 

On another note, here is what I feel is the case even more for counseling. I had a good friend that I no longer talk to because of some differences we had. I also have another friend that has been around longer than we have been married that is going through some of the same things I am. The other day when her and I got into the argument about her surgery, I went to him for advice. She asked me not to tell anyone, but he is one of the few friends we don't share together and she has seen him maybe twice since we have been married (8 years). Later on that night, she sees my flashing saying that I have a message. She checks it and doesn't see who she thought it was. However, she sees FB Messenger open and decides to read the conversation that my friend and I were having. Also, the part where we had talked about this was the other day so she had to scroll through the window and see what we were talking about to get to that part. I got the silent treatment for a day or two since I talked to him about it. It finally clicked to her that I don't have anybody else to talk to about stuff. 

Fast forward onto last night. She decided she wanted to go grocery shopping. I had finished work up earlier this week so I took a flight that got me home around 2 AM Friday morning. I told her I was too tired to go, but to let me know she got home so I could carry groceries in for her since her back has been bothering her. She decides to take our oldest instead. About an hour go by and he walks back in the door, I asked him why he wasn't carrying any groceries. He starts to snicker and say they haven't even gone to the store yet, they went to the local diner to get a snack (he "conned" her into this). This is all after I have explained to her that those things would need to go out the window on a budget. This is after we spent almost all day out for his baseball game and then he wanted to have someone stay overnight.


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## Cynthia

You need to talk about your life. The fact that it is intertwined with her life makes some things about her. She will have to live with that. As long as you aren't talking to people who are against your wife and turn it into an adversarial situation, you should be able to seek a listening ear.


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## ZDog377

So i have a question and I'm going to try and explain it the best I can. She has gone back to work and it seems to have improved her mood. However she doesn't seem to be taking care of herself since. She will say she doesn't have time to shower or she hasn't eaten since early in the morning because she is taking the kids all over. Ive been staying up later when I get home and trying to clean up around the house since her list of things that can't be put in the dishwasher keeps growing. 

What can I do to make her realize she needs to take time for herself and to take care of herself?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

How genuine is she? She may be doing this simply to get back at you for forcing the issue...


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## ZDog377

john117 said:


> How genuine is she? She may be doing this simply to get back at you for forcing the issue...


I think she is, I'm not home during the week to check. She's only working on Fridays right now since I'm usually home then to watch the kids instead of paying a babysitter. She does even when I'm home though. I'm not saying she needs to go to the Looney bin, but I don't see how you can't make time for basic needs to happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

Maybe she's doing this to make herself unattractive / unavailable???


----------



## Holdingontoit

Easy to refuse to make time for things you don't want to happen, or don't want to have to do yourself.


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## ZDog377

So this morning I supposedly need to go back to bed because according to her I'm acting like an ass. I didn't go to bed until 3 AM last night because I've been trying to work on a budget and also figure out how to get us new cell phones. 

I've spoke my mind to the oldest this morning asking him to do a few things (calmly) and she gets on my case because I act like he never does anything right.


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## caruso

She's telling you that you need a nap?

What do you say in response?


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## ZDog377

caruso said:


> She's telling you that you need a nap?
> 
> What do you say in response?


I ask her to explain why it seems like I'm acting like an ass when all I'm doing is asking him (calmly) to do something. She really doesn't have a response. I asked him if he had his homework done. Her and I had both agreed that he would do his homework every night, even Fridays before playing video games or anything of the sort. He says no, he still needs to do it. He proceeds to sit down in front of the TV and try and do his homework. This is after he's been up all morning playing video games. I told him that he has a table in his room and he needs to go do it in there. She says I'm an ass because I'm always correcting him......


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I ask her to explain why it seems like I'm acting like an ass when all I'm doing is asking him (calmly) to do something. She really doesn't have a response. I asked him if he had his homework done. Her and I had both agreed that he would do his homework every night, even Fridays before playing video games or anything of the sort. He says no, he still needs to do it. He proceeds to sit down in front of the TV and try and do his homework. This is after he's been up all morning playing video games. I told him that he has a table in his room and he needs to go do it in there. She says I'm an ass because I'm always correcting him......


It may be more how you are saying it than what you are saying. Or it could be an overall attitude she is picking up on. Mothers can be pretty sensitive to how their children are treated.


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## caruso

So why not then ask her, do you think it's ok for him to be doing his homework while watching TV?


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## Cynthia

She's got this backwards. She is blame shifting for her son. He should do as he's told the first time and he wouldn't have to be corrected.


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## ZDog377

caruso said:


> So why not then ask her, do you think it's ok for him to be doing his homework while watching TV?


She says that way she can at least monitor him doing it and make sure he doesn't fall asleep. Its the same thing if he falls asleep on the couch. She lets him lay there and fall aslee . I don't care if he's in the middle of a video game, he's going in his room at 930.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

Zdog,
You should have the game controllers in your possession. When he SHOWS you his homework is done, you give him the controllers for the day. 

This removes the destructive conflicts you currently have. If his homework is bad quality, you explain what he needs to do, to get the controllers. 

But your tone needs to not be adversarial. Kind of: I want you to have fun, but we both know you NEED to do your schoolwork.





ZDog377 said:


> She says that way she can at least monitor him doing it and make sure he doesn't fall asleep. Its the same thing if he falls asleep on the couch. She lets him lay there and fall aslee . I don't care if he's in the middle of a video game, he's going in his room at 930.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ZDog377

MEM2020 said:


> Zdog,
> You should have the game controllers in your possession. When he SHOWS you his homework is done, you give him the controllers for the day.
> 
> This removes the destructive conflicts you currently have. If his homework is bad quality, you explain what he needs to do, to get the controllers.
> 
> But your tone needs to not be adversarial. Kind of: I want you to have fun, but we both know you NEED to do your schoolwork.


I've tried setting up rules, but she swears up and down that she doesn't have problems with him when I'm not home. So I don't know if it's some kind of power struggle between him and I but it needs to end soon. He complained about everything on the way home from his baseball game tonight. My driving, the fact he couldn't have anyone stay over, how he didn't have dinner yet. Not once did she tell him to calm down and just relax. No comments about how you don't talk to your parents like that. I asked him why he was pitching like he was, how his one pitch comes in so slow it makes it easy to hit. He got all huffy, she told me if I know so much why don't I coach. Her and I were going to go the bar up the road tonight for a quick date, the youngest would already be sleeping when we left. His complaint is that he wants us to bring back him back chicken wings. 

I know I won't have much time until baseball season is over, but I'm going to counseling whether she comes or not. I have to do something before I go nuts.


----------



## Duguesclin

ZDog377 said:


> I've tried setting up rules, but she swears up and down that she doesn't have problems with him when I'm not home. So I don't know if it's some kind of power struggle between him and I but it needs to end soon. He complained about everything on the way home from his baseball game tonight. My driving, the fact he couldn't have anyone stay over, how he didn't have dinner yet. Not once did she tell him to calm down and just relax. No comments about how you don't talk to your parents like that. I asked him why he was pitching like he was, how his one pitch comes in so slow it makes it easy to hit. He got all huffy, she told me if I know so much why don't I coach. Her and I were going to go the bar up the road tonight for a quick date, the youngest would already be sleeping when we left. His complaint is that he wants us to bring back him back chicken wings.
> 
> I know I won't have much time until baseball season is over, but I'm going to counseling whether she comes or not. I have to do something before I go nuts.


It is not the wisest thing to criticize your 10 year old because he does not pitch right. At that age you should help him enjoy the game, tell him stories, show how he could improve. 

The same is true for school. I think it is a crime to have homework at 10. To be totally honest, school should not start before 11 or 12, especially for boys. They would be more successful at it if it were the case. 

Give him a break and relax. He needs to be loved. He does not need a sermon each time he sees you. No wonder he has an attitude.


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## ZDog377

Duguesclin said:


> It is not the wisest thing to criticize your 10 year old because he does not pitch right. At that age you should help him enjoy the game, tell him stories, show how he could improve.
> 
> The same is true for school. I think it is a crime to have homework at 10. To be totally honest, school should not start before 11 or 12, especially for boys. They would be more successful at it if it were the case.
> 
> Give him a break and relax. He needs to be loved. He does not need a sermon each time he sees you. No wonder he has an attitude.


No Dug, I asked him why he was pitching like that. I explained my point of view to him and allowed him to pitch his. He wanted to throw it back in my face because he struck the kid out. I explained to him that 80% of the time that pitch has yielded a hit. I've told him stories about how much uncle used to pitch for the local college team and how he got a no-hitter once. His response? "Well that's easy to do, anyone can do that" He lives his life through video games, I've tried to get him out to experience things in life. I've tried to teach him things that I wish I would have known when I was his age. His response? "Building stuff is stupid, I don't need to know this stuff". 

Just like I'm the stupid one for setting a bed time, just like I'm the stupid one for making him do his homework as soon as he gets home, just like I'm the stupid one for asking him to do his homework in pencil instead of pen......notice a pattern here? This summarizes it best....my wife will defend him to me all day long. If it comes the other way around, I'm the bad guy day in and day out. She's said she feels like she has to be overly nice to him to compensate for me constantly being an ass to him as she puts it.


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## Duguesclin

ZDog377 said:


> No Dug, I asked him why he was pitching like that. I explained my point of view to him and allowed him to pitch his. He wanted to throw it back in my face because he struck the kid out. I explained to him that 80% of the time that pitch has yielded a hit. I've told him stories about how much uncle used to pitch for the local college team and how he got a no-hitter once. His response? "Well that's easy to do, anyone can do that" He lives his life through video games, I've tried to get him out to experience things in life. I've tried to teach him things that I wish I would have known when I was his age. His response? "Building stuff is stupid, I don't need to know this stuff".
> 
> Just like I'm the stupid one for setting a bed time, just like I'm the stupid one for making him do his homework as soon as he gets home, just like I'm the stupid one for asking him to do his homework in pencil instead of pen......notice a pattern here? This summarizes it best....my wife will defend him to me all day long. If it comes the other way around, I'm the bad guy day in and day out. She's said she feels like she has to be overly nice to him to compensate for me constantly being an ass to him as she puts it.


I do not disagree with your wife. A kid will listen if he feels listened to. What he hears from you are orders or judgment. The issue is not who is right or who is wrong. In his eyes you are the blind authority who does not try to understand where he is coming from.

You cannot reason with a 10 year old who does not want to reason. You will only succeed to get him to hate you more and more. 

What you need is to build a relationship. Just get off his back. Your wife loves him. She will take the slack. Do not go after him about the homework. After a while your wife will notice and she will put pressure on him.

Instead, try to engage him. Go to the park with him. Go see a movie. Do something that does not make you look like an a$$ in his eyes.

You have good intentions. But they are worthless if he and your wife are not on board.


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## turnera

I spent DD26's first 15 years closely monitoring her activity, telling her what she needed to be doing, making it clear what I would and wouldn't admire her for. Then I got smart and just said 'you're in charge of your life, I can't force you to do this or that, but I can make clear what I expect and what will happen if it doesn't happen. Other than that, I won't judge you. I'll always love you. I may not like some things you do, but I'll always love you. And I am always here, ready to help you and spend time with you. Just ask. 

You wouldn't believe how the pressure just melted off of her, and the happiness came flooding back. She's now the most motivated young adult I've ever known. 

She told me much later that hearing that I would not judge her was the single most important thing she ever heard. She just wanted to be respected and expected to do great things. Not criticized. Today, she considers me her best friends and tells me everything.

Boys need their dads to expect a lot from them, but they need companionship more. Never ask him if he wants to go build something. Just say 'come on, DS, we're gonna go have some fun.' And then remember that 10 year olds have a very short attention span. Half an hour of working on a woodworking. Thirty minutes of catch. Whatever. 

Aside from that, you ARE limiting the amount of time he spends on electronics, aren't you? DD26 got 30 minutes a day on school days, electronics of her choice and an hour a day on weekends. The rest of the time she could do whatever we were doing, or I'd stop what I was doing to do something with her. And I'd always drop everything to read with her.

What kids want is your time and to know that they matter more than anything.


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## ZDog377

The other item she added yesterday is that she wishes our insurance covered counseling because she would like to send our oldest. She said she can tell he is getting depressed.


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## farsidejunky

ZDog377 said:


> She says that way she can at least monitor him doing it and make sure he doesn't fall asleep. Its the same thing if he falls asleep on the couch. She lets him lay there and fall aslee . I don't care if he's in the middle of a video game, he's going in his room at 930.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If he falls asleep, he gets woken up.

She is a pushover with her son.


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> The other item she added yesterday is that she wishes our insurance covered counseling because she would like to send our oldest. She said she can tell he is getting depressed.


I would take this seriously, Z, and ask her how she would like you to proceed, short of paying out of pocket for counseling. And then, whatever she says, like stop criticizing him, let him do homework on the couch, whatever, please do it. 

And please consider apologizing to both of them for whatever role you may have played in his developing depression. That would show great fatherly and husbandly character, Z.

Mothers are usually very sensitive to their children. Try to learn from her instincts, instead of being tempted to override them.

And 10 is so young. I have had 3 10 year old boys, myself, with another coming up in a few years. A somewhat irresponsible 10 year old can be a very responsible 14 or 17 year old.

But if you poison the well by being critical and overbearing, his relationship with you could be affected throughout both your lives.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## brooklynAnn

ZZ, you and your wife have to be on the same side. Kids know how to play off one parents off the other. I have a 17 year old son, let me tell you. It's much harder to parent a boy than a girl in my experience. The girl listened and you can reason with her. The boy does not listen and there is no reasoning with him. 

I know my H used to get mad with him and try to correct his behavior by going off into a rant. It does not work. Video game is the worst thing a boy can ever have. When I see my H getting mad, I quickly try to diffuse the situation or ask him to bring it down. If not it will become a battle zone and I hate seeing my son hurt and crying. It's breaks my heart when I see my son crying.

We have learned to approach everything from a place of love, respect and concern. Son, I noticed you are not completing your homework, what's going on?? Your grades were down this month, what can I do to help? I love you and I want to help you succeed, what can we do to help? 

What we don't seemed to realize is how fragile boys are. They are so easily bruised and they do get depressed. Which is why I stay on top of my son, always watching. We tell them to be strong and don't cry but we don't give them the tools to become strong. 

Try spending time with him just having fun. Do things together. My H plays video games with my son, get him involved with home repairs and just doing things outside of the house together. 

Don't judge him and try not to make every conversation about what you find wrong with him. I always tell my husband his job as the father is to inspire and uplift the kids. Because outside of our home, the world will try to bring them down.


----------



## Holdingontoit

And some parents feel their job is to educate their children on how to deal with rejection because the world will reject them and if they run to Mommy with every booboo they will never learn to self-sooth or to fight back when the world is trying to bring them down. Every child is unique and needs a different balance of warm love and tough love. Too much of either tends to lead to more work for the kid to balance themselves later.


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## ZDog377

Holdingontoit said:


> And some parents feel their job is to educate their children on how to deal with rejection because the world will reject them and if they run to Mommy with every booboo they will never learn to self-sooth or to fight back when the world is trying to bring them down. Every child is unique and needs a different balance of warm love and tough love. Too much of either tends to lead to more work for the kid to balance themselves later.


It's hard because the way her and I were raised is completely different. I got my rear end kicked a couple times when I was a kid by my dad, but I never did those things again because I remembered what happened when I did. Later on in life I realized that he was tougher than most parents on me but he taught me the value of doing your job. I can count the number of times he called off work on one hand. Her dad would use his sick days as soon as he got them each year. She was never criticized as a child. I keep describing it as she is his friend first, then parent second. He also knows what he can come to me about. Just like the other day, his video games were not working. I've told him numerous times that he leaves his games out and his brothers finger them all up. He went and got the cloth to clean them by himself and I told that was a good job and I appreciated him listening to me. 

I know it's not going to be a quick situation to resolve, I just hope things start to turn around sooner than later.


----------



## ZDog377

So I think things are going in a downward spiral to the point where I'm going to hit rock bottom soon. Sex will happen, but I can't even climax. I even tried going off my medication for almost a week and it didn't change. I don't think it helps though when she pretty much lays there and tells me to get off as quick as I can. 

My doctor changed me to Wellbutrin to see how things work with that instead, but after reading what can happen I'm not too positive. Other than going to counseling myself, I'm out of options to try. She doesn't seem to see why I have the depression and anxiety. Her comment is always "I would be bored without her and the kids". 

We've been trying budgeting, I'm trying to cut things out before we get down to actual numbers first. We tried an alternative to cable that would cut our bill in about half. She complains because she can't watch the football games and local channels. I've told her we need to drastically cut down on eating out. She feels she's entitled to a weekly lunch out with her friends. She doesn't have to worry about child care because I've busted my rear end every week to be home so she can work Thursday night/all day Friday. I was up at 5:30 this past Thursday morning, worked all day and then drove the seven hours home that night. Not a single thank you or anything. She's been busy "cleaning" house this week because her mom is coming down with her niece and nephew. This is after her dad was here Tuesday through Sunday last week. 

The final nail was her asking me for money to go to the baseball team party tonight. We've already agreed that only one of us would go with our oldest to save money. Mind you, she gets a little over $700 from child support and has been averaging $300 every two weeks from work. She's been paying for groceries every other week and the only thing she has to pay for is Aflac every month. All of her other expenses are optional, yet she can't tell me what she's spending her money on. At least now I have access to all her accounts and I've printed off her cell phone records which I'm going to go over this week....


----------



## Nucking Futs

ZDog377 said:


> So I think things are going in a downward spiral to the point where I'm going to hit rock bottom soon. Sex will happen, but I can't even climax. I even tried going off my medication for almost a week and it didn't change. I don't think it helps though when she pretty much lays there and tells me to get off as quick as I can.
> 
> My doctor changed me to Wellbutrin to see how things work with that instead, but after reading what can happen I'm not too positive. Other than going to counseling myself, I'm out of options to try. She doesn't seem to see why I have the depression and anxiety. Her comment is always "I would be bored without her and the kids".
> 
> We've been trying budgeting, I'm trying to cut things out before we get down to actual numbers first. We tried an alternative to cable that would cut our bill in about half. She complains because she can't watch the football games and local channels. I've told her we need to drastically cut down on eating out. She feels she's entitled to a weekly lunch out with her friends. She doesn't have to worry about child care because I've busted my rear end every week to be home so she can work Thursday night/all day Friday. I was up at 5:30 this past Thursday morning, worked all day and then drove the seven hours home that night. Not a single thank you or anything. She's been busy "cleaning" house this week because her mom is coming down with her niece and nephew. This is after her dad was here Tuesday through Sunday last week.
> 
> The final nail was her asking me for money to go to the baseball team party tonight. We've already agreed that only one of us would go with our oldest to save money. Mind you, she gets a little over $700 from child support and has been averaging $300 every two weeks from work. She's been paying for groceries every other week and the only thing she has to pay for is Aflac every month. All of her other expenses are optional, yet she can't tell me what she's spending her money on. *At least now I have access to all her accounts and I've printed off her cell phone records which I'm going to go over this week....*


Stay away from booze while you're doing it and check in here before you confront her with what you find.


----------



## ZDog377

Well, I hit what I feel is rock bottom today. We got into an argument over our oldest, he kept on running his mouth after I asked him to do something while she just stood there and let him go on. She told me there is something seriously wrong with me and that I need help. I went and sat down and after a minute or so, my heart beat started to get rapid and I could barely catch my breath. I went upstairs and laid down and after about ten minutes she came up to see what was wrong. I couldn't say much because I thought something seriously wrong was happening. I decided to take a shower and she came into the bathroom to ask me what was wrong. Her response was that it was probably just a "panic attack" and asked me if I wanted to go stay at my dad's for a few days. 

Was what happened a panic attack? I felt a little light headed to go along with everything else that was going on. I'm planning on calling the first thing in the morning to see if I can schedule a counseling appointment for next weekend. We are clear except for Saturday evening when she has a school function event she has to be at. I'm also wondering if I should take the oldest with me so we can work on our issues, on the other hand, I feel I need to fix what is wrong with myself first.....


----------



## Cynthia

I'm sorry you're having such a hard time. Yes, that does sound like an anxiety attack.


----------



## farsidejunky

Do you normally struggle to stand up for yourself?


----------



## ZDog377

farsidejunky said:


> Do you normally struggle to stand up for yourself?


It's not that, I can assert my opinion all day long but if she's not willing to take it into consideration I'm wasting my breath. After being beaten down so much about it it's a lost cause. I can't remember the last time she's actually told me I did something right in regards to the kids. She feels she is always right when it comes to the kids and cooking. She will defer to me on electronics and bills, but that's about it.


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## farsidejunky

Your attitude is one of defeat and resignation.


----------



## ZDog377

farsidejunky said:


> Your attitude is one of defeat and resignation.


I believe it is because of frustration instead. It seems to me things are one sided, it almost seems like she doesn't believe me about the anxiety. She will complain if I yell at the oldest but she can yell at him five minutes later and it's OK.


----------



## john117

Interesting nobody commented on her suggestion to go live with your father for a little while...


----------



## farsidejunky

ZDog377 said:


> I believe it is because of frustration instead. It seems to me things are one sided, it almost seems like she doesn't believe me about the anxiety. She will complain if I yell at the oldest but she can yell at him five minutes later and it's OK.


If a tree falls in the forest and your wife was not there to see it, does that mean that it didn't happen?


----------



## ZDog377

farsidejunky said:


> If a tree falls in the forest and your wife was not there to see it, does that mean that it didn't happen?


No it still happened. She will still complain about it though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I believe it is because of frustration instead. It seems to me things are one sided, it almost seems like she doesn't believe me about the anxiety. She will complain if I yell at the oldest but she can yell at him five minutes later and it's OK.


She probably considers the kids her domain.

Did you officially adopt the oldest boy?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> She probably considers the kids her domain.
> 
> Did you officially adopt the oldest boy?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, we both talked and agreed we could not afford it right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> No, we both talked and agreed we could not afford it right now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Makes sense.

A lot of guys cede authority over the kids, at least when they are little, to the mother, as she is usually with them more. I don't think it is uncommon at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> Makes sense.
> 
> A lot of guys cede authority over the kids, at least when they are little, to the mother, as she is usually with them more. I don't think it is uncommon at all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wasn't describing it as something like that, I was talking about it more like a double standard. Just like I believe she protects him more because she still feels like she needs to compensate for something. 

It's almost like he thinks he's the man of the house and wants to challenge me on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Holdingontoit

ZDog377 said:


> I wasn't describing it as something like that, I was talking about it more like a double standard. Just like I believe she protects him more because she still feels like she needs to compensate for something.
> 
> It's almost like he thinks he's the man of the house and wants to challenge me on it.


Pretty close. He feels he is related to her and you are not. He feels he needs to be "the man of the house" toward her because his "real" dad is not around to perform that role. He does not want to accept that you have any authority over him. All very common and understandable. Still, that does not make it easy on you to deal with him. Read up on children of divorce. You will see that adolescent boys often react as your son is. Might give you more sympathy for what he is going through and less feeling that he is being stupid or unreasonable. What he seems to feel is very typical for boys at that age.

ETA: Adolescent boys tend to rebel against their bio fathers too. Sometimes more acute for non-bio fathers but occurs pretty much across the board. Part of boys growing into men. Also, be careful what you wish for. Boys who don't rebel at all often end up being wimpy doormats in adulthood. So you either deal with several years of butting heads with an adolescent living with you, or risk having the twenty-something move home and never leave!


----------



## ZDog377

Holdingontoit said:


> Pretty close. He feels he is related to her and you are not. He feels he needs to be "the man of the house" toward her because his "real" dad is not around to perform that role. He does not want to accept that you have any authority over him. All very common and understandable. Still, that does not make it easy on you to deal with him. Read up on children of divorce. You will see that adolescent boys often react as your son is. Might give you more sympathy for what he is going through and less feeling that he is being stupid or unreasonable. What he seems to feel is very typical for boys at that age.
> 
> ETA: Adolescent boys tend to rebel against their bio fathers too. Sometimes more acute for non-bio fathers but occurs pretty much across the board. Part of boys growing into men. Also, be careful what you wish for. Boys who don't rebel at all often end up being wimpy doormats in adulthood. So you either deal with several years of butting heads with an adolescent living with you, or risk having the twenty-something move home and never leave!


He does not know that I'm not his real dad. His biological dad isn't even in the picture and wants nothing to do with him. I agree that I need to work on my relationship with him. When he helps me do things around the house (most of the time) or helps out with his brothers he is usually very good. When he's a pain in the rear, he excels at that as well. 

We talked a little while I was on the plane today (through FB chat). I mentioned that I miss how things used to be when we were dating. I'd check my phone and have just a random text message from her or she would just tell me she had something planned for when the kids went to bed. Sometimes she would just take me upstairs and do something quick to tease me for later. Her response is that life happens and things change. I can't remember the last time I got more than a kiss on the cheek or she dressed up semi-nice when we went out somewhere. Her response to that was that she's a mom now and doesn't do those things anymore. 

She acknowledged that we don't spend enough time together but then followed it up that I don't spend enough time with the kids. Then she brought up money and I mentioned that was why she was going back to work. She's going to be getting the inheritance from her aunt's estate and already has figured out what she's going to do with it.


----------



## Tron

ZDog377 said:


> We talked a little while I was on the plane today (through FB chat). I mentioned that I miss how things used to be when we were dating. I'd check my phone and have just a random text message from her or she would just tell me she had something planned for when the kids went to bed. Sometimes she would just take me upstairs and do something quick to tease me for later. Her response is that life happens and things change. I can't remember the last time I got more than a kiss on the cheek or she dressed up semi-nice when we went out somewhere. *Her response to that was that she's a mom now and doesn't do those things anymore.*


THIS IS F'ING BULL****! 

The simple answer is that if she doesn't take some time to care for the relationship, there won't be a relationship to care for. She can talk to counselors, church ministers and any normal, informed or educated married couple and they will tell you that you have to make time for your the relationship, even at the expense of the kids.

If all she wants to do is be a mom, then she can do that as a single mom. She doesn't need you to do that. 



ZDog377 said:


> She acknowledged that we don't spend enough time together but then followed it up that I don't spend enough time with the kids. Then she brought up money and I mentioned that was why she was going back to work.


Pure DARVO.



ZDog377 said:


> She's going to be getting the inheritance from her aunt's estate and already has figured out what she's going to do with it.


I'll bet...and no doubt it doesn't address her debt.


----------



## ZDog377

Tron said:


> THIS IS F'ING BULL****!
> 
> The simple answer is that if she doesn't take some time to care for the relationship, there won't be a relationship to care for. She can talk to counselors, church ministers and any normal, informed or educated married couple and they will tell you that you have to make time for your the relationship, even at the expense of the kids.
> 
> If all she wants to do is be a mom, then she can do that as a single mom. She doesn't need you to do that.
> 
> 
> 
> Pure DARVO.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll bet...and no doubt it doesn't address her debt.


What is DARVO? She did say she is planning on using it to pay off her credit card debt and to buy some items that we need for the house. 

I've told her I'm not expecting to have her all alone for a day where we do nothing but lay around and have sex. I just want time where we can be together and do something besides missionary sex. I've told her what would help me get off quicker but she doesn't seem to grasp that concept...

She stated that she felt like there are four people competing for her time (me +kids) and that she doesn't have time for herself. 

As a side note, her own mother commented to me about the state of the kitchen when she was there this past weekend. She couldn't believe the amount of dishes that my wife just let in the sink. She complimented me and told me I was a good husband for putting up with it and trying to keep the house clean.


----------



## Tron

ZDog377 said:


> She acknowledged that we don't spend enough time together but then followed it up that I don't spend enough time with the kids. Then she brought up money and I mentioned that was why she was going back to work. She's going to be getting the inheritance from her aunt's estate and already has figured out what she's going to do with it.


DARVO refers to a reaction perpetrators of wrong doing may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior. DARVO stands for "Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender." The perpetrator or offender may Deny the behavior, Attack the individual doing the confronting, and Reverse the roles of Victim and Offender such that the perpetrator assumes the victim role and turns the true victim -- or the whistle blower -- into an alleged offender. This occurs, for instance, when an actually guilty perpetrator assumes the role of "falsely accused" and attacks the accuser's credibility or even blames the accuser of being the perpetrator of a false accusation.

In a nutshell, blame shifting. In order to avoid any responsibility for her poor behavior, i.e. her lack of attention to the marriage and you in particular, she changes the subject and shifts responsibility for something else completely unrelated over to you, i.e. you not spending enough time with the kids or money or whatever else. 

She is very good at it. It keeps you constantly back pedaling.


----------



## farsidejunky

Zdog, I keep waiting for you to get sick and tired of being sick and tired.

Clearly you are not there yet.


----------



## Holdingontoit

@farsidejunky: I think he is too much like me. I don't think he will ever get there.


----------



## ZDog377

Holdingontoit said:


> @farsidejunky: I think he is too much like me. I don't think he will ever get there.


It's hard to me, I keep on thinking there is something I can do different. That's why I'm willing to try counseling myself first to see if there are things I can work on before bringing her into it. 

And I don't know why I feel like this, but I look at myself as a failure if I can't work this out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ZDog377 said:


> It's hard to me, I keep on thinking there is something I can do different. That's why I'm willing to try counseling myself first to see if there are things I can work on before bringing her into it.
> 
> And I don't know why I feel like this, but I look at myself as a failure if I can't work this out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is noble but misguided.

You need to clean up your side of the street. Yet you also need to communicate through actions that her lack of effort into areas of your relationship is unacceptable. 
You are woefully lacking in the latter.


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> It's hard to me,* I keep on thinking there is something I can do different. *That's why I'm willing to try counseling myself first to see if there are things I can work on before bringing her into it.
> 
> And I don't know why I feel like this, but I look at myself as a failure if I can't work this out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with this. This is a pro-active mindset, Z, and you are to be commended for it.

And IC is a good idea.

In the meantime, if I were you, I would work on modelling a healthy diet to your family. I would also read about, and try to put into practice, empathetic communication techniques with family members. _Seven Habits of Highly Effective People_, by Stephen Covey, is an excellent resource.


----------



## john117

Awesome, Z. I kept thinking I could fix it, too. Every time I looked at my trophy wall where my diplomas hang... How hard can it be?

However, participating in 3 years worth of FC with DD1 and getting myself on the couch a number of times proved a bit futile for me. I was diagnosed with being stubborn but otherwise a normal human being, card carrying member of the NormalPeople (tm) class. Regardless it was a useful experience.

IC is more about learning about yourself, as I did. That will be useful. 

But the biggest decision is what to do next.


----------



## Tron

jld said:


> I agree with this. This is a pro-active mindset, Z, and you are to be commended for it.
> 
> And IC is a good idea.
> 
> In the meantime, if I were you, I would work on modelling a healthy diet to your family. I would also read about, and try to put into practice, empathetic communication techniques with family members. _Seven Habits of Highly Effective People_, by Stephen Covey, is an excellent resource.


While this may reduce conflict in the marriage I don't believe it will change your wife's attitude towards you or the marriage one iota. Your W has made it clear that she doesn't give a chit about your needs. There will always be an excuse why she shouldn't spend more or any quality time together with you.


----------



## ZDog377

Tron said:


> While this may reduce conflict in the marriage I don't believe it will change your wife's attitude towards you or the marriage one iota. Your W has made it clear that she doesn't give a chit about your needs. There will always be an excuse why she shouldn't spend more or any quality time together with you.


I see where she is coming from but at the same time I do not. She has said before that she feels like she has four people to constantly make happy and that is without worrying about herself. I brought up that she doesn't have to be a super star mother and volunteer all the time....kind of silent after that. She says the volunteering is her way of doing something she enjoys. I will admit she has stopped doing a large amount of it when she knows I will be home.

Also, I have not noticed anything weird going through bank statements or looking at cell phone records....


----------



## Holdingontoit

She gets kudos and appreciation when she volunteers. Does she get that when she spends time with you? She seems to feel under-appreciated. Not sure how much appreciation she has earned but "fair" is not necessarily relevant. If you want her to want to want to spend time with you, then you need to make time with you more satisfying to her than time volunteering. Or you can destabilize so she wants to spend time with you so you don't leave her. But that tends only to be temporary motivation. It might get he to cut down the volunteering in the short term. But if you want long term success at getting her to spend time with you, you have to make the time together enjoyable for her.

If she doesn't enjoy spending time with you outside the bedroom, you are doomed. Might as well divorce now.

If she enjoys spending time with you outside the bedroom, then you can probably parlay that into willingness to be sexual with you. Not desire. Just willingness. Your job is to turn that desire into willingness by making sex enjoyable for her. If you can't (even if that is because she refuses to allow you to do so), then you can have a "just friends" marriage but you will never have a decent sex life with her. Decide which is more important to you.

Only if you can turn willingness into enjoyment can you hope to trigger any desire in her. Might not be as much desire as you wish, as often, as intensely, but at least it will be there. That is the best possible outcome. Not suggesting I think it is likely you will get there or even likely that this outcome exist for you and her. I think it is unlikely. But at least be clear on the mechanisms at work.


----------



## MarriedTex

ZDog377 said:


> I see where she is coming from but at the same time I do not. She has said before that she feels like she has four people to constantly make happy and that is without worrying about herself. I brought up that she doesn't have to be a super star mother and volunteer all the time....kind of silent after that. She says the volunteering is her way of doing something she enjoys. I will admit she has stopped doing a large amount of it when she knows I will be home.


I assume you realize that she's talking out of both sides of her mouth. All the "super PTA" stuff is supposed to be "for the kids." That's largely BS. She enjoys doing PTA stuff because it hits the sweet spot of her largely unlucrative college education. She does well at it and it feeds her ego. That's not the problem. The problem comes when other people have to make sacrifices for her to grab the "superMom" status. 

You should recognize that a person definitively demonstrates their priorities in life by how they spend their time. Her decision to allocate time to other interests tells you all you need to know. This is useful knowledge for you. But only you can determine how you will respond. From where I sit, it looks like she's taking you for granted, and you rank 11th on her Top 10 list of priorities. You pretty much know the score. If you choose to accept this relationship status, it will not change. You need to think long and hard about what your boundaries are, how to communicate those boundaries to Mrs. Z-Dog and the consequences that will result if the boundaries are broken. 

Or you can come onto TAM once every couple weeks and complain about your lot in life. Your choice.


----------



## ZDog377

Holdingontoit said:


> She gets kudos and appreciation when she volunteers. Does she get that when she spends time with you? She seems to feel under-appreciated. Not sure how much appreciation she has earned but "fair" is not necessarily relevant. If you want her to want to want to spend time with you, then you need to make time with you more satisfying to her than time volunteering. Or you can destabilize so she wants to spend time with you so you don't leave her. But that tends only to be temporary motivation. It might get he to cut down the volunteering in the short term. But if you want long term success at getting her to spend time with you, you have to make the time together enjoyable for her.
> 
> If she doesn't enjoy spending time with you outside the bedroom, you are doomed. Might as well divorce now.
> 
> If she enjoys spending time with you outside the bedroom, then you can probably parlay that into willingness to be sexual with you. Not desire. Just willingness. Your job is to turn that desire into willingness by making sex enjoyable for her. If you can't (even if that is because she refuses to allow you to do so), then you can have a "just friends" marriage but you will never have a decent sex life with her. Decide which is more important to you.
> 
> Only if you can turn willingness into enjoyment can you hope to trigger any desire in her. Might not be as much desire as you wish, as often, as intensely, but at least it will be there. That is the best possible outcome. Not suggesting I think it is likely you will get there or even likely that this outcome exist for you and her. I think it is unlikely. But at least be clear on the mechanisms at work.


I'll admit I probably need to work on making her feel more appreciated. I've tried sending cute little emails or getting a card. I would pick up flowers every now and then but the cat would turn them into a chew toy. I'm not going to come out and say "thanks for not strangling the kids this week". I have told her thanks for cooking an awesome dinner or thanks for spending time with me the other night. She has freely admitted that she wants to spend more time as a family than anything else. That is a big "turn-on" to her. 

She has also told me she does not get much out of sex. Yes, she enjoys the orgasm but she does not need it to survive. She enjoys getting me off more and that is what makes it enjoyable for her. She feels now that the problem to me not "finishing" are due to me not seeing her as attractive. I've tried to explain that I still find her extremely attractive or else I would not be wanting to have sex with her all the time.


----------



## caruso

MarriedTex said:


> you rank 11th on her Top 10 list of priorities.


How is this possible? It's like dividing by zero.


----------



## turnera

ZDog377 said:


> I'll admit I probably need to work on making her feel more appreciated. I've tried sending cute little emails or getting a card. I would pick up flowers every now and then but the cat would turn them into a chew toy. I'm not going to come out and say "thanks for not strangling the kids this week". I have told her thanks for cooking an awesome dinner or thanks for spending time with me the other night. She has freely admitted that she wants to spend more time as a family than anything else. That is a big "turn-on" to her.


A woman's perspective. Cute cards: easy, cheap, and worthless. Walking past me, then stopping, and saying 'wow, you know, I never realized how much you really do for me. Can't believe I never thanked you' and then walking on without waiting for a response: priceless



ZDog377 said:


> She has also told me she does not get much out of sex. Yes, she enjoys the orgasm but she does not need it to survive. She enjoys getting me off more and that is what makes it enjoyable for her. She feels now that the problem to me not "finishing" are due to me not seeing her as attractive. I've tried to explain that I still find her extremely attractive or else I would not be wanting to have sex with her all the time.


Women typically want to be swept off their feet. OMG, I can't stand it one moment longer, I NEED you. RIGHT NOW. And you pick her up, carry her to the bedroom, and ravish her. You can't get enough of her. NO TALK besides what I just described. REEL HER IN.


----------



## joannacroc

turnera said:


> A woman's perspective. Cute cards: easy, cheap, and worthless. Walking past me, then stopping, and saying 'wow, you know, I never realized how much you really do for me. Can't believe I never thanked you' and then walking on without waiting for a response: priceless
> 
> 
> Women typically want to be swept off their feet. OMG, I can't stand it one moment longer, I NEED you. RIGHT NOW. And you pick her up, carry her to the bedroom, and ravish her. You can't get enough of her. NO TALK besides what I just described. REEL HER IN.


This ^^^^^^

Saying "you look nice" when you're getting ready to go out for example is not descriptive or specific. I would read it is being polite rather than appreciating your partner is attractive and conveying that in a convincing way. There must be something incredible and sexy about her - her intelligence, her dedication to your kids, her eyes, her giving nature, her goodness, her legs, I don't know. Start paying attention and let her know that you notice those things about her and value having her in your life. I appreciate that you think you are doing that with a card but it is more authentic if you tell her those things instead of having Hallmark do it for you. You know your wife. Hallmark doesn't. If anyone can make her feel how much you appreciate and value her, it should be you.


----------



## Holdingontoit

@ZDog377: Let me give you an example. My wife went out with some college friends. The rich one paid for something extravagant that the others could not afford. The rest of the gals wanted to buy the rich one a gift card to thank her. My wife said "no, she said she can't get through the afternoon without a cup of tea, let's go online and send her a fancy tea set for her afternoon break. Same price but she will appreciate it more than a gift card." When my wife told me this, I looked her in the eyes and said "you have a big heart and you are a good friend. I love that about you." No, we didn't have sex after I said that. But her eyes welled up and she gave me a kiss. You need to find occasions to make comments like that.


----------



## MarriedTex

caruso said:


> How is this possible? It's like dividing by zero.


It's a rhetorical flourish. Being 11th on a Top 10 priority list is the equivalent of saying that ZDog is not a priority to her at all.


----------



## caruso

MarriedTex said:


> It's a rhetorical flourish. Being 11th on a Top 10 priority list is the equivalent of saying that ZDog is not a priority to her at all.


Thanks. I just wish you would have explained that BEFORE I burned out a half dozen calculators.

Still trying to see my computer monitor screen through all the smoke.


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## ZDog377

So things are starting to look up a little I think. My dad is taking the younger two for the weekend and we have a coupon for a free night at a local hotel that we won. However, we can't go until we find somewhere for the oldest to stay. Even if we can't find anywhere for him, she's promised that we will get to spend some time together later that night. He wants to go to the local football game Friday night. I also have counseling scheduled for tomorrow morning, so hopefully I can get some stress out of my life that way as well. I'm just going to take things as they come this weekend, no expectations......


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*

Z, why do you keep hoping for things to just smooth over?

How realistic is that approach?


----------



## ZDog377

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



farsidejunky said:


> Z, why do you keep hoping for things to just smooth over?
> 
> How realistic is that approach?


Honestly, I don't know. I can almost guarantee things would not change no matter what I did. She has stated numerous times that "things sometimes just don't work out between two people"

I'll admit that I've done some stupid stuff in this marriage, but this is definitely not what I imagined marriage to be like. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marc878

Agree with her and move on.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ZDog377 said:


> Honestly, I don't know. I can almost guarantee things would not change no matter what I did. She has stated numerous times that "things sometimes just don't work out between two people"
> 
> I'll admit that I've done some stupid stuff in this marriage, but this is definitely not what I imagined marriage to be like.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hope is not a plan, it is a motivation, brother.

If you change nothing, nothing changes.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



farsidejunky said:


> This is noble but misguided.
> 
> You need to clean up your side of the street. Yet you also need to communicate through actions that her lack of effort into areas of your relationship is unacceptable.
> You are woefully lacking in the latter.


LOL. Sorry, this analogy cracks me up at times. I see a guy who started out with a little whisk broom and is now using bulldozer. There's a point when you've cleaned up "your side of the street" to the point you'd be labeled OCD. IMO, it doesn't matter how many times he picks up or what he uses to clean up his side of the street, she will ALWAYS find a piece of trash to make him start all over again.


----------



## ZDog377

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> LOL. Sorry, this analogy cracks me up at times. I see a guy who started out with a little whisk broom and is now using bulldozer. There's a point when you've cleaned up "your side of the street" to the point you'd be labeled OCD. IMO, it doesn't matter how many times he picks up or what he uses to clean up his side of the street, she will ALWAYS find a piece of trash to make him start all over again.


 @phillybeffandswiss, this is how I feel now. I'm always second guessing decisions and it's transferred over into work. I feel like what I'm doing is right, but I think about it over and over again until it drives me nuts. On my reviews, my boss says he's happy with how I'm doing but I always feel like I need to improve. 

It felt good to go to counseling the other day, granted I was by myself but it felt good to get everything out there with somebody who didn't have a response right away for everything. I have another appointment scheduled for two weeks and I'm going to try and keep a journal so I can bring some notes to the next visit.


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## phillybeffandswiss

You have always felt this way, but guilt and insecurity kept you from acknowledging the issue. I can go get post after post where you see it, then promptly blame "your side of the street."


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## turnera

You should be going to counseling BY YOURSELF every time. It's YOU who needs the therapy, not her. BTDT. I spent years begging my H to go to therapy and only when I was so frustrated I was walking out the door did he agree to go. But he nodded, agreed, and went home and did NOTHING to change. 

Because, as my IC later told me, HE wasn't the problem. I was. Because I ACCEPTED the poor treatment and because I stayed.

I hope that someday you reach the point that you realize that.


----------



## ZDog377

turnera said:


> You should be going to counseling BY YOURSELF every time. It's YOU who needs the therapy, not her. BTDT. I spent years begging my H to go to therapy and only when I was so frustrated I was walking out the door did he agree to go. But he nodded, agreed, and went home and did NOTHING to change.
> 
> Because, as my IC later told me, HE wasn't the problem. I was. Because I ACCEPTED the poor treatment and because I stayed.
> 
> I hope that someday you reach the point that you realize that.


For the first couple visits I am definitely planning on going by myself. I would like her to come at least once to see if she would listen to somebody else about what I've been trying to say the past year or so. I do believe she summed it up the other day when she described the situation as a "her and the kids" vs. me situation.


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> For the first couple visits I am definitely planning on going by myself. I would like her to come at least once to see if she would listen to somebody else about what I've been trying to say the past year or so. I do believe she summed it up the other day when *she described the situation as a "her and the kids" vs. me situation*.


Do you see why she might see it that way, Z?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

Speaking as a moderator:

Please keep the dialogue constructive. We can disagree without being disagreeable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

ZDog377 said:


> For the first couple visits I am definitely planning on going by myself. I would like her to come at least once to see if she would listen to somebody else about what I've been trying to say the past year or so. I do believe she summed it up the other day when she described the situation as a "her and the kids" vs. me situation.


And, of course, that is the response of a DOORMAT. Someone who does NOT love hiimself, does NOT value himself, and is scared ****less that his wife will realize she can pick another man, so he'd better kiss her ass BIG TIME to keep her from leaving him.


----------



## ZDog377

jld said:


> Do you see why she might see it that way, Z?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @jld, I honestly do not. The only she criticizes me for disciplining is the oldest. She is OK when I correct the younger two. I've explained to her the things that frustrate me with the older one are when he does certain things when I can tell he knows better. I know people have bad days, but even after I question him on why he's doing something and still continues to play dumb about it that is what frustrates me. I've been working on talking calmly more to him when things come up instead of yelling.


----------



## jld

ZDog377 said:


> @jld, I honestly do not. The only she criticizes me for disciplining is the oldest. She is OK when I correct the younger two. I've explained to her the things that frustrate me with the older one are when he does certain things when I can tell he knows better. I know people have bad days, but even after I question him on why he's doing something and still continues to play dumb about it that is what frustrates me. *I've been working on talking calmly more to him when things come up instead of yelling*.


The bolded is very good, Z.

How about saying this to your wife: "Honey, you made an interesting comment recently. You said that sometimes it feels to you like it is you and the kids against me. Can you help me understand why it feels that way to you, please?"

And then really listen to her answer. (Do not try to defend yourself.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

Z, I'm going to offer a bit of advise on parenting here as a seasoned parent... The way to success in parenting is, of course, behavioral modeling . Over the years you spend a lot of time with your children (and I mean a lot) and you do what is needed, little league, piano, Kumon... But you observe and try to see how the child's behavior over time maps out. Then, you use your very detailed knowledge of your child to predict future behavior.

You do this early and often. That way you have a great understanding of your child's behavior, capabilities, skills, and needs. You don't simply 'discipline' them. You reason with them, even if they're in grade school.


----------



## Holdingontoit

It is her and the kids "against" him because she only cares about them and not him. She puts all her energy into them and not him. She gets all her validation from them and no him. And she takes their side against him so she can get her kibble from them.

I agree if he yells he should cut that out. But I don't get the feeling from his posts that Z's anger is the problem here. I believe Z's anger is the result of the problem. Z - yelling at your kids is not the solution for being justifiably enraged at your wife's behavior. End the yelling by addressing the real problem.


----------



## ZDog377

john117 said:


> Z, I'm going to offer a bit of advise on parenting here as a seasoned parent... The way to success in parenting is, of course, behavioral modeling . Over the years you spend a lot of time with your children (and I mean a lot) and you do what is needed, little league, piano, Kumon... But you observe and try to see how the child's behavior over time maps out. Then, you use your very detailed knowledge of your child to predict future behavior.
> 
> You do this early and often. That way you have a great understanding of your child's behavior, capabilities, skills, and needs. You don't simply 'discipline' them. You reason with them, even if they're in grade school.


 @john117, I appreciate the advice. I've been trying to work on reasoning with him. Things like "help me do these few things and then you can go to your friends house" or "finish your homework and then we can go outside and do stuff". I feel he's a lot like his mother (obviously) and since I don't know his father I can only compare him to her. He is very "instant gratification". He doesn't see past what is in front of him right now to see the damages of what he's doing. That's why I've been trying to stop when he's doing "dumb" things and asking him "now if you do that, what is going to happen"?


----------



## john117

See, you aren't telling him why doing his homework is important. Try doing that.

My older was never a great student. She's very talented and hard working but not an academic genius by any stretch. Thankfully she's a design student where talent is all that matters . So thru high school I had to help her grow the talent, skills, etc while helping her along to get out of high school. That was her "why". Her instant gratification came later when she got her car and apartment, all for being a great and hardworking college student. But it was a struggle. A lot of work. But she knew what was in for her and delivered.

The younger one is the academic genius in the family and I really never had to think much of motivating her. But then you're talking about someone who taught herself to read at age 4 and read Harry Potter in first grade at age 6... And remembered it word by word.


----------



## turnera

ZDog377 said:


> @john117, I appreciate the advice. I've been trying to work on reasoning with him. Things like "help me do these few things and then you can go to your friends house" or "finish your homework and then we can go outside and do stuff". I feel he's a lot like his mother (obviously) and since I don't know his father I can only compare him to her. He is very "instant gratification". He doesn't see past what is in front of him right now to see the damages of what he's doing. That's why I've been trying to stop when he's doing "dumb" things and asking him "now if you do that, what is going to happen"?


It's good that you're asking him to see the future of his actions. BUT, you're missing the final - and KEY - step to authoritative parenting.

And that is, after telling them what's required, explaining why, and then explaining the consequence...TO BACK OFF, _impassively_, and let them then LEARN by experiencing the consequence of their own actions. 

They may hear your reasoning, may even agree with it as much as a child can, but at his age, what really matters is WHAT HAPPENS TO HIM. In HIS world (you are no longer the center of his universe; his friends and school are).

That is why you have to tell, explain, and then back off so he can choose - or not - to comply. And thus learn.

btw, my DD26 is one of the 'good ones.' Always did what she was told, seemed to get it all. But ten years later, she tells me that, while I made good sense, she still at the time didn't feel I 'got it' and she shouldn't have to listen to me; she had it all planned out. 

The miraculous thing is that I got to experience her 'learning curve' through those next 10 years, as she figured it all out. When I pushed her at 16 to take those Advanced Placement tests so she'd get college credit in high school...it wasn't until she was trying to graduate college that she regretted all those tests she could have taken back then to hasten her college degree.

Such things just have to occur naturally. As smart as she is, as driven as she is, as much of a plan as she has had these past 10 years, back then, she 'knew' what she needed, and no parent was going to convince her otherwise. 

That is why I push so hard to you guys at giving the expectations, giving the consequences, and then STEPPING BACK so they can 'learn' it on their own; in the end, they own voice is the only one they're going to listen to. THEY have to figure out they don't want the consequence; THEY have to figure out it just might work out better your way; and so on. Backing off, when they're a teenager, is your only hope at getting them to see the path to success.


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## Nucking Futs

turnera said:


> It's good that you're asking him to see the future of his actions. BUT, you're missing the final - and KEY - step to authoritative parenting.
> 
> *And that is, after telling them what's required, explaining why, and then explaining the consequence...TO BACK OFF, impassively, and let them then LEARN by experiencing the consequence of their own actions.
> *
> They may hear your reasoning, may even agree with it as much as a child can, but at his age, what really matters is WHAT HAPPENS TO HIM. In HIS world (you are no longer the center of his universe; his friends and school are).
> 
> That is why you have to tell, explain, and then back off so he can choose - or not - to comply. And thus learn.
> 
> btw, my DD26 is one of the 'good ones.' Always did what she was told, seemed to get it all. But ten years later, she tells me that, while I made good sense, she still at the time didn't feel I 'got it' and she shouldn't have to listen to me; she had it all planned out.
> 
> The miraculous thing is that I got to experience her 'learning curve' through those next 10 years, as she figured it all out. When I pushed her at 16 to take those Advanced Placement tests so she'd get college credit in high school...it wasn't until she was trying to graduate college that she regretted all those tests she could have taken back then to hasten her college degree.
> 
> Such things just have to occur naturally. As smart as she is, as driven as she is, as much of a plan as she has had these past 10 years, back then, she 'knew' what she needed, and no parent was going to convince her otherwise.
> 
> That is why I push so hard to you guys at giving the expectations, giving the consequences, and then STEPPING BACK so they can 'learn' it on their own; in the end, they own voice is the only one they're going to listen to. THEY have to figure out they don't want the consequence; THEY have to figure out it just might work out better your way; and so on. Backing off, when they're a teenager, is your only hope at getting them to see the path to success.


Good advice, as long as you don't have a spouse mitigating the consequences.


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## ZDog377

Nucking Futs said:


> Good advice, as long as you don't have a spouse mitigating the consequences.


I've explained to her certain things that drive me nuts with child raising. Number 1 - when he smarts off, she just sits there and doesn't say anything. Makes me feel like she's not backing me up. Number 2 - everything that goes on is based on her schooling. He does this because of this or he does this because because he feels this way.


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## farsidejunky

What is her response when you ask her what her schooling says about correcting said behavior?


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> I've explained to her certain things that drive me nuts with child raising. Number 1 - when he smarts off, she just sits there and doesn't say anything. *Makes me feel like she's not backing me up. * Number 2 - everything that goes on is based on her schooling. He does this because of this or he does this because because he feels this way.


Do you need her to do the bolded? Have you told her that? What was her response?

I ask because I do not always feel my husband backs me up, either. He is often very relaxed about kid issues that I am much more sensitive to and demanding on. We are just different from each other that way, and each approach probably has benefits for the kids. 

How about, when he treats you in a manner you feel hurt by, just simply and sincerely saying to him, "I feel hurt when I hear/see that." A vulnerable, feeling-based statement may activate his conscience.


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## turnera

What do you do when he 'smarts off?'


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## ZDog377

farsidejunky said:


> What is her response when you ask her what her schooling says about correcting said behavior?


She says that he's acting out to get attention and I don't need to give him that attention.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

ZDog377 said:


> She says that he's acting out to get attention and I don't need to give him that attention.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's not a solution, that's an analysis.

What did she say when you tell her that?


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## ZDog377

turnera said:


> What do you do when he 'smarts off?'


I'll admit I tell a lot less than I used to. First part is usually finding out what he said because he usually says it under his breath and then goes into a different room. Then trying to explain to him what's going on. 

His latest is that we never let him do anythig fun and that we are so mea because we won't let a friend stay over or something like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

How's he doing academics wise? Potential wise? Start from the desired outcome and walk backwards.


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## ZDog377

john117 said:


> How's he doing academics wise? Potential wise? Start from the desired outcome and walk backwards.


Reading is what he hates the most. Everything else he is doing ok with, with not much studying either. He's good in sports as well and other parents have commented as well so it's not just us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*

Without reading skills his writing skills will not develop properly and will result in an epic catastrophe. Likewise with good reading skills the sky's the limit.

There are many resources, your wife and you being the prime ones. With my older girl we used the Reader Rabbit software and she caught on pretty quickly at age 5 or so. The younger taught herself to read at age 4... Using just the Reader Rabbit workbook. 

Athletics wise my girls were solid winners of the indoor sofa division. My cat catches balls better than them. Thankfully they walk and run, but nothing organized.
How old is he?


----------



## ZDog377

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



john117 said:


> Without reading skills his writing skills will not develop properly and will result in an epic catastrophe. Likewise with good reading skills the sky's the limit.
> 
> There are many resources, your wife and you being the prime ones. With my older girl we used the Reader Rabbit software and she caught on pretty quickly at age 5 or so. The younger taught herself to read at age 4... Using just the Reader Rabbit workbook.
> 
> Athletics wise my girls were solid winners of the indoor sofa division. My cat catches balls better than them. Thankfully they walk and run, but nothing organized.
> How old is he?


He will be 11 in December. He will read if he has to, but does not enjoy reading anything for leisure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

Red flag alert... at 11 he should be reading very well. And enjoying it.

Do you read? Does Mrs Z? the girls and I always read stuff. Assign him rewards for completing books. Make sure he reads by asking questions. 

You need to be hands on here. This should help with Mrs Z as well.


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## ZDog377

john117 said:


> Red flag alert... at 11 he should be reading very well. And enjoying it.
> 
> Do you read? Does Mrs Z? the girls and I always read stuff. Assign him rewards for completing books. Make sure he reads by asking questions.
> 
> You need to be hands on here. This should help with Mrs Z as well.



Her and I both love to read. They have a program in school where they get a free pizza from pizza hut once they tea so many books. He says he hates to read because its boring...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

Funny, I got into reading because I was bored


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## ZDog377

farsidejunky said:


> That's not a solution, that's an analysis.
> 
> What did she say when you tell her that?


She says that he is seeking attention and to combat that behavior I should not recognize he is acting up, therefore not give him "bad" attention. 

She also says that it's OK for her to yell at him because she's nice to him more than I am.


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## Holdingontoit

If he is seeking attention, then give him more attention when he is not acting out. Don't address the acting out, address the underlying need or fear. If he needs more time with you, that is a good thing.

I agree with Z2, ignore him when he is acting out. You only reward the acting out if you give him attention, even if it is negative attention like yelling. And you shouldn't have to yell. You should have a list of privileges in your head. When he acts out, you take away one. If he doesn't stop, you take away another. Make sure electronics are the first few items on the list. To modern kids, taking away their electronic lifeline to the outside world is torture. Wow, they might even have to read a book! LOL. But that is the idea. You start gradually and work up to the "torture" of being cut off totally from their electronics.

In the old days, they could run away from home, crash with a friend and cool off. These days, without their phones they probably don't know where any of their friends live or how to navigate there. They might get to the end of the driveway, but without GPS they will be frozen in confusion about which way to go.


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## ZDog377

Holdingontoit said:


> If he is seeking attention, then give him more attention when he is not acting out. Don't address the acting out, address the underlying need or fear. If he needs more time with you, that is a good thing.
> 
> I agree with Z2, ignore him when he is acting out. You only reward the acting out if you give him attention, even if it is negative attention like yelling. And you shouldn't have to yell. You should have a list of privileges in your head. When he acts out, you take away one. If he doesn't stop, you take away another. Make sure electronics are the first few items on the list. To modern kids, taking away their electronic lifeline to the outside world is torture. Wow, they might even have to read a book! LOL. But that is the idea. You start gradually and work up to the "torture" of being cut off totally from their electronics.
> 
> In the old days, they could run away from home, crash with a friend and cool off. These days, without their phones they probably don't know where any of their friends live or how to navigate there. They might get to the end of the driveway, but without GPS they will be frozen in confusion about which way to go.


I've tried spending more time with him to see if it helps. I'll go over the top in thanking him when he helps out around the house. He will do fine and then he will go off the wall. For example, I'll sit down to play a sports video game with him. Five minutes into it, he's up jumping around talking smack because he's beating me. If I turn the tables on him though, he whines and complains to her that I'm cheating and won't let him catch up. Another example, we will go outside to play catch (baseball or football). First couple minutes are good then he's wanting me to make them so he has to slide or dive to catch them. I've told him that leaves stains/tears up his pants when he does things like that. He keeps on doing it, I tell him I warned him and that we are now done playing. He comes into the house whining and complaining about how I never do anything fun with him. Her response? Why can't you two ever get along......


----------



## Holdingontoit

ZDog377 said:


> Another example, we will go outside to play catch (baseball or football). First couple minutes are good then he's wanting me to make them so he has to slide or dive to catch them. I've told him that leaves stains/tears up his pants when he does things like that. He keeps on doing it, I tell him I warned him and that we are now done playing. He comes into the house whining and complaining about how I never do anything fun with him. Her response? Why can't you two ever get along......


Wait, you think grass stains on his pants are more important that having fun playing catch with him? And you think wife and son are the problem here?

Good Lord man, your son wants to have fun playing catch with you and you are worried about laundry issues? No wonder he is calling out for attention. You send a clear message that clean laundry is more important than your son. It is one thing to say "we can't play catch in your nice pants from church, go change into play pants and then we can play catch all afternoon". It is another thing to ban catch that gets his pants dirty.

Go to Goodwill or Salvation Army, buy a pair or the ugliest pants with stains and holes in them. In fact, ask them if they have any pants in your son's size that were in such bad shape they were unwilling to sell them and were going to throw them out. Bring those pants home to your son and then go outside and play catch with him and revel in him getting his pants dirty.

I know I am being confrontational and now your pride and defenses are up and you are probably not listening to me any longer. But here is the God's honest truth. You are going to end up paying far far far more in therapy bills (best case) or lawyer bills (worse case) cleaning up after your son's continued acting out than you ever would have had to spend on a couple of pair of "roll in the mud" pants to play catch in. You sir, are being penny wise and pound foolish. Even if you care more about money than about your son, you are not saving yourself any money. You are just running up a huge tab that is going to come due one day. I hope you can see that.


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## ZDog377

Holdingontoit said:


> Wait, you think grass stains on his pants are more important that having fun playing catch with him? And you think wife and son are the problem here?
> 
> Good Lord man, your son wants to have fun playing catch with you and you are worried about laundry issues? No wonder he is calling out for attention. You send a clear message that clean laundry is more important than your son. It is one thing to say "we can't play catch in your nice pants from church, go change into play pants and then we can play catch all afternoon". It is another thing to ban catch that gets his pants dirty.
> 
> Go to Goodwill or Salvation Army, buy a pair or the ugliest pants with stains and holes in them. In fact, ask them if they have any pants in your son's size that were in such bad shape they were unwilling to sell them and were going to throw them out. Bring those pants home to your son and then go outside and play catch with him and revel in him getting his pants dirty.
> 
> I know I am being confrontational and now your pride and defenses are up and you are probably not listening to me any longer. But here is the God's honest truth. You are going to end up paying far far far more in therapy bills (best case) or lawyer bills (worse case) cleaning up after your son's continued acting out than you ever would have had to spend on a couple of pair of "roll in the mud" pants to play catch in. You sir, are being penny wise and pound foolish. Even if you care more about money than about your son, you are not saving yourself any money. You are just running up a huge tab that is going to come due one day. I hope you can see that.


We will use video games as an example instead. We tell him to sit on either the couch or floor while we are playing. After a couple minutes he's up jumping around and dancing around. After several warnings of being told to sit down and play the game goes off. Once again, arguement ensues. 

Is that a fair punishment for that situation?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

Tell him ahead of time to focus on the game and not the celebrations. At that age he should be able to play for hours nonstop...


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## GTdad

ZDog377 said:


> Her and I both love to read. They have a program in school where they get a free pizza from pizza hut once they tea so many books. He says he hates to read because its boring...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Okay, I have a suggestion that worked for us. Both my wife and I are big readers, and here we were with a son about your age for whom reading seemed to be torture. Then he discovered and took an interest in his older brother's comic book collection. It wasn't long before he was devouring them. And it wasn't terribly long after that that he progressed to other books (ones without, you know, pictures and illustrations).

All it took was first finding something he was interested in.


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## Holdingontoit

ZDog377 said:


> We will use video games as an example instead. We tell him to sit on either the couch or floor while we are playing. After a couple minutes he's up jumping around and dancing around. After several warnings of being told to sit down and play the game goes off. Once again, arguement ensues.
> 
> Is that a fair punishment for that situation?


In my view? No. To me, the way to get him to see that jumping up and down mocking his opponent is impolite is to do it back to him.

My advice is for you to trounce him in the game, then you jump up, dance around, trash talk him in the harshest manner possible, and do your best to humiliate him over his failure to crush you. How can a kid lose to an adult at video games? Even better - invite some of his friends over and do it in front of them. He will never live down the ignominy of losing to his dad at video games in front of his friends. His friends will never let him forget it.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ZDog377 said:


> She says that he is seeking attention and to combat that behavior I should not recognize he is acting up, therefore not give him "bad" attention.
> 
> She also says that it's OK for her to yell at him because she's nice to him more than I am.


Ask her to show you the psychiatrist that concluded her approach at the end of their studies...


----------



## MarriedTex

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*



ZDog377 said:


> He will be 11 in December. He will read if he has to, but does not enjoy reading anything for leisure.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Baby steps. Get him a subscription to a video game magazine for X-Mas. Also, silly boy books are good way to get them going. About a decade ago, my guys got into a series called "Captain Underpants." They were pretty funny. Typically, "Scholastic" books usually sold through schools as part of fund raisers are good place to find starter targeted books like that.


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## ZDog377

Holdingontoit said:


> In my view? No. To me, the way to get him to see that jumping up and down mocking his opponent is impolite is to do it back to him.
> 
> My advice is for you to trounce him in the game, then you jump up, dance around, trash talk him in the harshest manner possible, and do your best to humiliate him over his failure to crush you. How can a kid lose to an adult at video games? Even better - invite some of his friends over and do it in front of them. He will never live down the ignominy of losing to his dad at video games in front of his friends. His friends will never let him forget it.


I've done that plenty of times, he runs to his room complaining that I'm so mean to him. She then tells me I'm such an @$$ to him. A couple months ago he was eating some hot pockets and saw on the package that there were tomatoes in them. I guess he could now taste them and spit out what he had in his mouth. I exclaimed "OMG, some tomatoes, what's going to happen?" He ran into his room crying and wouldn't talk to me the rest of the night.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Holdingontoit

I LOVED Captain Underpants. My kids did too. Great series.


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## ZDog377

We have tried everything to get him to like reading. They have to read 75 Minutes a week to school. Our local library is walking distance from our house and we have tried all different kinds of books, I gr8 Sports Illustrated and he won't even read those.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

ZDog377 said:


> We have tried everything to get him to like reading. They have to read 75 Minutes a week to school. Our local library is walking distance from our house and we have tried all different kinds of books, I gr8 Sports Illustrated and he won't even read those.


Have you seen this:
https://www.thedodo.com/kids-read-to-shelter-dogs-1620612867.html

Or maybe he could volunteer to read to younger kids? Are you sure he's not having trouble reading? 

Do you read books together? DD26 and I read every single night of her life, until she was about 13, we would take turns reading paragraphs - so that we 'took that journey' into whatever the book was sharing together.

Also, how much time a day does he get on electronics? If you don't let electronics become THE life force in his life (or if you gradually pull those away from him so that he doesn't think about them day and night), it's possible he could start seeing the joy in other things. Do you play sports with him, one on one? How often does he go fishing or camping or hiking or biking? Boy Scouts? If you help him start filling his life with enjoyable things, it's possible he could move past this.


----------



## turnera

ZDog377 said:


> I've tried spending more time with him to see if it helps. I'll go over the top in thanking him when he helps out around the house. He will do fine and then he will go off the wall. For example, I'll sit down to play a sports video game with him. Five minutes into it, he's up jumping around talking smack because he's beating me. If I turn the tables on him though, he whines and complains to her that I'm cheating and won't let him catch up. Another example, we will go outside to play catch (baseball or football). First couple minutes are good then he's wanting me to make them so he has to slide or dive to catch them. I've told him that leaves stains/tears up his pants when he does things like that. He keeps on doing it, I tell him I warned him and that we are now done playing. He comes into the house whining and complaining about how I never do anything fun with him. Her response? Why can't you two ever get along......


That's not a very productive way to teach him to strive for more or better. First, do you mean that he talks smack and you turn the tables by ALSO talking smack? That's humiliation. You're the adult. You should know that he can do it but you can't. 

The bottom issue, though, is that you need to take your wife to a therapist where the therapist will tell her you two need to be on the same page and hopefully force you two to come up with agreements on how you will handle specific things. If he runs to her every time he doesn't get what he wants, and she relents, SHE is damaging more than anything else.

Diving and sliding for the ball is FUN. Just standing there and tossing a ball back and forth is likely boring and stupid to him. Can you try a little harder and drum up some neighborhood kids/dads so it's a little more exciting? And telling him he can't slide for a ball because he'll stain his clothes? Really? You think that matters or even registers to a kid? And it sounds like you just tell him how bad it is to do it, without giving a real consequence, and when he does it anyway, you just walk off and say 'I'm done.' If that's true, then you're being a bad role model. Per authoritative parenting (have you read up on it yet?), you say 'I don't want you to do ABC; if you do it again, we'll have to quit the game.' And if he does it again, THEN you say 'look, I told you what would happen, and you chose to do it anyway. So we're going to have to quit and go inside.' Then when he whines, you simply shrug and say 'you had the option to keep playing but you chose to break the rule and end it.'

All that said, it sounds like you're saying he has a 5-minute attention span. Has he been checked for ADD?


----------



## turnera

Holdingontoit said:


> Wait, you think grass stains on his pants are more important that having fun playing catch with him? And you think wife and son are the problem here?
> 
> Good Lord man, your son wants to have fun playing catch with you and you are worried about laundry issues? No wonder he is calling out for attention. You send a clear message that clean laundry is more important than your son. It is one thing to say "we can't play catch in your nice pants from church, go change into play pants and then we can play catch all afternoon". It is another thing to ban catch that gets his pants dirty.
> 
> Go to Goodwill or Salvation Army, buy a pair or the ugliest pants with stains and holes in them. In fact, ask them if they have any pants in your son's size that were in such bad shape they were unwilling to sell them and were going to throw them out. Bring those pants home to your son and then go outside and play catch with him and revel in him getting his pants dirty.
> 
> I know I am being confrontational and now your pride and defenses are up and you are probably not listening to me any longer. But here is the God's honest truth. You are going to end up paying far far far more in therapy bills (best case) or lawyer bills (worse case) cleaning up after your son's continued acting out than you ever would have had to spend on a couple of pair of "roll in the mud" pants to play catch in. You sir, are being penny wise and pound foolish. Even if you care more about money than about your son, you are not saving yourself any money. You are just running up a huge tab that is going to come due one day. I hope you can see that.


Exactly.


----------



## turnera

ZDog377 said:


> We will use video games as an example instead. We tell him to sit on either the couch or floor while we are playing. After a couple minutes he's up jumping around and dancing around. After several warnings of being told to sit down and play the game goes off. Once again, arguement ensues.
> 
> Is that a fair punishment for that situation?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not if you haven't first said "If you jump up, the game will end." Authoritative parenting: giving HIM the option to abide by the rules or to ignore the rule and suffer the consequence.


----------



## turnera

ZDog377 said:


> I've done that plenty of times, he runs to his room complaining that I'm so mean to him. She then tells me I'm such an @$$ to him. A couple months ago he was eating some hot pockets and saw on the package that there were tomatoes in them. I guess he could now taste them and spit out what he had in his mouth. *I exclaimed "OMG, some tomatoes, what's going to happen?"* He ran into his room crying and wouldn't talk to me the rest of the night.


That is NOT what an adult should reply. You sound more juvenile than him.


----------



## ZDog377

turnera said:


> Have you seen this:
> https://www.thedodo.com/kids-read-to-shelter-dogs-1620612867.html
> 
> Or maybe he could volunteer to read to younger kids? Are you sure he's not having trouble reading?
> 
> Do you read books together? DD26 and I read every single night of her life, until she was about 13, we would take turns reading paragraphs - so that we 'took that journey' into whatever the book was sharing together.
> 
> Also, how much time a day does he get on electronics? If you don't let electronics become THE life force in his life (or if you gradually pull those away from him so that he doesn't think about them day and night), it's possible he could start seeing the joy in other things. Do you play sports with him, one on one? How often does he go fishing or camping or hiking or biking? Boy Scouts? If you help him start filling his life with enjoyable things, it's possible he could move past this.


I like the reading to shelter animals idea. He will read to his younger brothers here and there, but not on a consistent basis. He has trouble with some of the bigger words, but he usually comes to us and we help him sound them out. 

He gets more than what I feel he should on electronics. He's always trying to bring one in the car, I ask to leave it at home and just enjoy seeing things as we drive. I think this weekend I'm going to start taking the controllers for the electronics to bed with me. I can't count the number of times I've come downstairs at 7 AM during the school week and he's already playing video games. We haven't done many one on one sports, usually because when we are outside the younger two want to be outside as well. It then gives her time to get stuff done inside. We did do Boy Scouts when he was younger. It got to be so involved with fundraising and everything else. We just recently got his bike fixed and got a hitch so we could put a bike rack on our van. I'm hoping to find a bike in early spring so he and I can go riding. We have done fishing, but it has to be constant catching for him to enjoy it. He doesn't enjoy just sitting there and relaxing.


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## ZDog377

turnera said:


> That's not a very productive way to teach him to strive for more or better. First, do you mean that he talks smack and you turn the tables by ALSO talking smack? That's humiliation. You're the adult. You should know that he can do it but you can't.
> 
> The bottom issue, though, is that you need to take your wife to a therapist where the therapist will tell her you two need to be on the same page and hopefully force you two to come up with agreements on how you will handle specific things. If he runs to her every time he doesn't get what he wants, and she relents, SHE is damaging more than anything else.
> 
> Diving and sliding for the ball is FUN. Just standing there and tossing a ball back and forth is likely boring and stupid to him. Can you try a little harder and drum up some neighborhood kids/dads so it's a little more exciting? And telling him he can't slide for a ball because he'll stain his clothes? Really? You think that matters or even registers to a kid? And it sounds like you just tell him how bad it is to do it, without giving a real consequence, and when he does it anyway, you just walk off and say 'I'm done.' If that's true, then you're being a bad role model. Per authoritative parenting (have you read up on it yet?), you say 'I don't want you to do ABC; if you do it again, we'll have to quit the game.' And if he does it again, THEN you say 'look, I told you what would happen, and you chose to do it anyway. So we're going to have to quit and go inside.' Then when he whines, you simply shrug and say 'you had the option to keep playing but you chose to break the rule and end it.'
> 
> All that said, it sounds like you're saying he has a 5-minute attention span. Has he been checked for ADD?


I don't come out and talk smack but I'm not putting 100% into beating him when I play him in a video game. He will be winning and then he starts with "who's the best, told you that you can't beat me", things like that. More annoying than anything. So I actually start playing and get to where I'm beating him and I have to hear him whine and complain about how I cheat and don't play fair. 

I want him to work on throwing back and forth so it becomes repetition to him. I'll throw ground balls to him or pop flies because those are things he will see in a game. He has been slacking off on his mechanics and is starting to throw sidearm and I've been wanting to get him back to throwing the correct way. 

I've been working more on explaining his options to him so it doesn't seem like the consequence is coming out of nowhere. I'll say "you need to sit down or else we will stop playing the video game". He has a 5 minute attention span except when it comes to video games or TV. Sometimes then you have to get right in front of him to be acknowledged. He knows way too much about the games too. He can name you every type of gun in Call of Duty or which one had the zombies and which one didn't. I've explained that I want him checked for ADD but Ms. Psychology (Mrs. Z) says that they won't do anything but give him some medication and she doesn't want that.


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## john117

Try to explain to him that learning, not winning, is the whole point in video games. Both my girls are accomplished gamers, and we never completed. we learned from each other but never competed for bragging rights or...

I have played against enough people to know they don't always learn strategy. They simply try a million times. Try to engage him with strategy and critical thinking, like, game physics, opponent thinking, strengths and weaknesses...

What platform and games?


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## turnera

ZDog377 said:


> Their treat for reading to the dogs could be getting to take one of the dogs OUT of their kennels and play with them. It's all about warm fuzzies that you retain when you start getting older.
> 
> He gets more than what I feel he should on electronics. He's always trying to bring one in the car *I ask to leave it at home and just enjoy seeing things as we drive.*


Say what? You *ASK *to leave it at home? Who's the adult here, Z? Good grief.

When I was raising DD26, I flat out told her - on MANY occasions - that *I *was the adult, *SHE *was the child, and therefore I made the rules and SHE followed them or suffered the consequence for ignoring the rules. Period. There WAS no other choice. I also told her if I ever found out she skipped school, I would quit my job and my NEW job would be to drive her to school every day, walk her to every single class to ensure she made it to them. Until I no longer feared she would skip school. She was horrified. I just shrugged and said 'if it comes to the point that I have to treat you that way, it will have been because of YOUR actions.' And walked away. She never skipped school until the last semester of senior class in high school - and even then, she asked my permission.

This is no different from raising a dog. There has to be an alpha male. The ONE person everyone looks to for the final word. You are giving both your child AND your wife WAY too much control over how the family acts and reacts. And look at what you're getting in return. From BOTH of them. There's a REASON the Bible says the man rules the home. 

DD tried to play the sh*t on me like yours does - crying, blaming, whining, pleading, guilting. YOUR job, as was mine, was to SHRUG YOUR SHOULDERS and say 'Oh well' and walk away. 

Every time you get emotional, every time you play into his histrionics, and shout back or whine back or jump up and down to 'show' him what he's doing, YOU LOSE. And your son becomes that much more at a disadvantage at growing up to be a fulfilled, happy, confident young man.



ZDog377 said:


> I think this weekend I'm going to start taking the controllers for the electronics to bed with me.


Say what?! YOU LET your kids take their electronics to bed with them? Seriously? Who's the parent here?!



ZDog377 said:


> We did do Boy Scouts when he was younger. It got to be so involved with fundraising and everything else.


Ok, let's be honest here. Boy Scouts was 'too much work' for you as an adult. It was never about doing something good for your son. It was about doing what looked good for YOU. And when it required you to take more than the basic effort to get off the couch...you pulled him out. And convinced him it was because HE wanted to quit.

Guess what happens to kids who learn how to quit?



ZDog377 said:


> We just recently got his bike fixed and got a hitch so we could put a bike rack on our van. I'm hoping to find a bike in early spring so he and I can go riding.


What, do you live in Antarctica? It's still October, for goodness' sake. You don't have time between now and APRIL to go bikeriding? And why the hell do you have to DRIVE the bikes to somewhere ELSE to ride a bike? My husband used to ride bikes with our DD to all the parks within a 25-mile radius. He'd map out all the parks, and they'd just ride from one park to the next. Only one time did he have to call me and come and pick them and their bikes up because they rode too far. She learned early on - because her PARENTS taught her - that all rewards require putting in some hard work.



ZDog377 said:


> We have done fishing, but it has to be constant catching *for him to enjoy it*. He doesn't enjoy just sitting there and relaxing.


Ok, here's what I'm sensing. And don't feel bad, I see it in almost all the people your age. You simply don't understand that it's ok for your kids to have 'down time.' To NOT be entertained every single minute of their lives.

I went to a wedding Saturday night. There was a kid there, about 10 years old, who had huge earphones that he never took off except for the 3 or 4 minutes he stood in line for food. Those headphones were connected to a tablet, on which was a video game he played the entire night. 

His parents never even 'forced' him to take the damn headphones off long enough to stand in line to congratulate the wedding couple, nor to say goodbye.

Guess how much of a putz that kid is going to turn out to be, since he has NEVER had to have a life in which he didn't believe that HE was the center of the universe. He'll never learn that sometimes you go to a wedding or a funeral or a college graduation that, yes, isn't all that fun for you...but it's what you do AS PART OF SOCIETY.

Barring your son having ADD, you are doing him a disservice by trying to make sure his every minute in life is filled with 'fun.'

The whole POINT of going fishing is that you and your dad are stuck in a boat, with no music, no electronics, no 'entertainment,' and you and your dad have to actually - SHRIEK! - TALK to your dad about your life. Ask him questions about life. Tell him what things have happened at school and listen to him tell you about his experiences so that you can learn from him. And so on.

THAT'S LIFE, Z.

If you want to be a good father, you don't get to be selfish anymore. You sacrifice your free time. You ensure your kids are learning stuff. Aren't 'happy' all the time. Are learning how to be good citizens of the earth.


----------



## turnera

ZDog377 said:


> I don't come out and talk smack but I'm not putting 100% into beating him when I play him in a video game. He will be winning and then he starts with "who's the best, told you that you can't beat me", things like that. More annoying than anything. So I actually start playing and get to where I'm beating him and I have to hear him whine and complain about how I cheat and don't play fair.


Again, SO? How do you think kids learn to PUSH and STRIVE and ACHIEVE?

By losing.

Unless, of course, the parent is being a bigger child than the parent. 

If he sees you working HARD to win the game, and you win, guess what? He learns how to work HARD to win a game.

Every post you make, I think of the last two episodes of 
Dance Moms. So the coach gives two girls (supposedly awesome dancing stars) a duet in BALLET. Well, guess what? One of the two has been focusing on being a 'celebrity' (Kardasian) instead of a great dancer. She just thought being on Dance Moms would give her a leg up to be a superstar (without having to work hard to reach it). 

so when she has to do a ballet (hard), she balks. And actually quits! Because dancing a ballet would have made her 'look bad' (since she wasn't 'good at it') and that wouldn't have been fun or helped her in her 'career' at being a superstar.

So she quits the team - and they go on to dance one of the most iconic, important dances of their career. Which she missed out on all because she wasn't willing to work hard enough to overcome her weakness and because her mother didn't PUSH her to do the hard stuff. 

Guess what kind of person she's going to turn out to be?..



ZDog377 said:


> I want him to work on throwing back and forth so it becomes repetition to him. I'll throw ground balls to him or pop flies because those are things he will see in a game. He has been slacking off on his mechanics and is starting to throw sidearm and I've been wanting to get him back to throwing the correct way.


Again, so what? If you want him to practice ball, take him to practice ball. It is NOT your job to ensure every waking minute is FUN for him. And how do you think he will learn to improve unless you focus on what he's doing wrong? PARENTS are how kids learn to push themselves.



ZDog377 said:


> I've been working more on explaining his options to him so it doesn't seem like the consequence is coming out of nowhere. I'll say "you need to sit down or else we will stop playing the video game". He has a 5 minute attention span except when it comes to video games or TV. Sometimes then you have to get right in front of him to be acknowledged.


All proof that you are giving him WAY TOO MUCH TIME on video games. Are you afraid to take it away from him?



ZDog377 said:


> I've explained that I want him checked for ADD but Ms. Psychology (Mrs. Z) says that they won't do anything but give him some medication and she doesn't want that.


Who's his parent? Her?

Guess what, Z? YOU ARE TOO. If you want him checked out for ADD, GET HIM CHECKED OUT.

Stop making excuses. Stop being a beta male.


----------



## ZDog377

turnera said:


> Again, SO? How do you think kids learn to PUSH and STRIVE and ACHIEVE?
> 
> By losing.
> 
> Unless, of course, the parent is being a bigger child than the parent.
> 
> If he sees you working HARD to win the game, and you win, guess what? He learns how to work HARD to win a game.
> 
> Every post you make, I think of the last two episodes of
> Dance Moms. So the coach gives two girls (supposedly awesome dancing stars) a duet in BALLET. Well, guess what? One of the two has been focusing on being a 'celebrity' (Kardasian) instead of a great dancer. She just thought being on Dance Moms would give her a leg up to be a superstar (without having to work hard to reach it).
> 
> so when she has to do a ballet (hard), she balks. And actually quits! Because dancing a ballet would have made her 'look bad' (since she wasn't 'good at it') and that wouldn't have been fun or helped her in her 'career' at being a superstar.
> 
> So she quits the team - and they go on to dance one of the most iconic, important dances of their career. Which she missed out on all because she wasn't willing to work hard enough to overcome her weakness and because her mother didn't PUSH her to do the hard stuff.
> 
> Guess what kind of person she's going to turn out to be?..
> 
> 
> Again, so what? If you want him to practice ball, take him to practice ball. It is NOT your job to ensure every waking minute is FUN for him. And how do you think he will learn to improve unless you focus on what he's doing wrong? PARENTS are how kids learn to push themselves.
> 
> All proof that you are giving him WAY TOO MUCH TIME on video games. Are you afraid to take it away from him?
> 
> 
> Who's his parent? Her?
> 
> Guess what, Z? YOU ARE TOO. If you want him checked out for ADD, GET HIM CHECKED OUT.
> 
> Stop making excuses. Stop being a beta male.


You know @turnera, I'm a little tired of the high and mighty from this post. I've stated numerous times that I'm trying to be a parent first and friend second to our kids, not the other way around like my wife. He has no respect for either of us, especially me. I've been half tempted to send him to one of those "scared straight" experiences so he will realize life isn't as bad as he makes it out to bed. I'm not afraid to take the games away from him. There will be plenty of times that I give him a warning, he does it again and I just walk over and shut the game off. I don't care if he's in the middle of it or anything. He whines and complains, I tell him that he got his warning. 

He sees me win the game for whatever reason in his head I didn't win because I worked hard. He has the idea in his head that I cheated or didn't play fair. Nothing I can do to change his mind so I just calmly tell him that's not how it is. 

I feel I've named plenty of times in this thread where I talk about how she's the one that feels he needs to be occupied all the time. If I didn't name plenty of times, my apologies. I'm the one that feels he needs to find ways to occupy himself when he's "bored". Once again, this is the product of how her and I were raised. It's not just the way he is with me either. During one baseball game this year, my dad pulled him aside after he pitched an inning and told him he was doing good, but he would do even better if he did something different. His response "yeah, yeah, yeah, my coach is happy with how I'm doing and that's what matters". I told him later that night that we should go visit my uncle and he can get some tips from him because he played in college and pitched a no-hitter once. The response from that? Oh, that's really easy...anybody can do it. I've come down on him hard after both times and told him that he has somebody wanting to help him out with something and he's being ignorant about it. Finally, as sad as this sounds he is probably one of the better behaved kids in his grade. There have been plenty that I've personally heard drop f-bombs and such while playing video games. We had one that told him "your parents suck" because we made him put his clothes away. Needless to say, that friend doesn't come over at all anymore. 

As far as your comment about the controllers, I stated I was going to take them to bed with me so *he* wouldn't get up and start playing. He even told us tonight that he got up at 6 and was watching Netflix and playing games until we came down around 7:15. I *never* let him take electronics to bed with him. He goes to bed, the electronics stay out in the kitchen. Also, there have been times that I have told him to turn around and take the tablet or whatever he tries to bring with him back into the house. He whines and complains but I told him that was what was going to happen. 

I've tried the whole "I'm the adult, you're the child" approach. It doesn't work out so well in this house as you can see. The majority of the time I'm only home on the weekends so I can walk around and be alpha male all I want on the weekends but when it doesn't carry through to during the week, nothing I can do except pick back up on the weekend again. 

This was the two-fold reason for me to go to counseling. Like I've said before, a last ditch effort to see what is going with me and how I can improve. I seriously want to get the anxiety under control, not only because of home life but also because it is affecting my work. I'm so far beyond the original topic of this thread right now that it's not even funny. Sex is a take it or leave it thing anymore because there is never any passion behind it and I realize other things need fixed before that even becomes a possibility. I also want her to come along and have her listen to the therapist tell her that we need to work together on this.


----------



## Holdingontoit

@ZDog377: sorry for being harsh on you. Don't intend to pile on. We aren't bashing you because we dislike you. On the contrary, we are pushing you because we care about you and your son. We want what is best for both of you.

My D19 was a terror as a young child. Threw huge tantrums. Lie on the floor screaming with her legs up in the air kicking to keep us away with her. H2 would give in to tantrums to get the loud noise to stop. I explained to H2 that she was training D19 that tantrums work to get your way. I told H2 to calmly say "if you had asked nicely, you might have gotten what you wanted. Since you threw a tantrum, the answer now is 'no'. You can ask again tomorrow." Then walk away. She could carry on as long as she wanted but the answer stayed no. Didn't take long for D19 to stop throwing tantrums. She is now doing well at the flagship campus of a highly rated university. 

We know parenting is hard. It is even harder when you aren't a team with your spouse. When she overspends and doesn't want to have sex very often. Leaves you emotionally drained even before your kid starts to act up. And you are playing what is supposed to be a 2 person team game alone. No fun at all. We get it. That is why we sympathize and want to help you. But you have to be willing to move off of doing what is easier in the moment. And start doing what works better in the long term.

It is not easy to leave your kid lying in the hall screaming and crying. You yearn to reach out for them and care for them and wipe the tears away. But that isn't really helping them.

Much of life is just showing up. Much of life is persevering in the face of disappointment. Much of life is doing your job when it is boring and monotonous. Your son needs to learn that life is not all fun and games. You can teach him. Or the world will pound it into him. Hopefully you will be more patient and understanding than the outside world will be.


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## ZDog377

Holdingontoit said:


> @ZDog377: sorry for being harsh on you. Don't intend to pile on. We aren't bashing you because we dislike you. On the contrary, we are pushing you because we care about you and your son. We want what is best for both of you.
> 
> My D19 was a terror as a young child. Threw huge tantrums. Lie on the floor screaming with her legs up in the air kicking to keep us away with her. H2 would give in to tantrums to get the loud noise to stop. I explained to H2 that she was training D19 that tantrums work to get your way. I told H2 to calmly say "if you had asked nicely, you might have gotten what you wanted. Since you threw a tantrum, the answer now is 'no'. You can ask again tomorrow." Then walk away. She could carry on as long as she wanted but the answer stayed no. Didn't take long for D19 to stop throwing tantrums. She is now doing well at the flagship campus of a highly rated university.
> 
> We know parenting is hard. It is even harder when you aren't a team with your spouse. When she overspends and doesn't want to have sex very often. Leaves you emotionally drained even before your kid starts to act up. And you are playing what is supposed to be a 2 person team game alone. No fun at all. We get it. That is why we sympathize and want to help you. But you have to be willing to move off of doing what is easier in the moment. And start doing what works better in the long term.
> 
> It is not easy to leave your kid lying in the hall screaming and crying. You yearn to reach out for them and care for them and wipe the tears away. But that isn't really helping them.
> 
> Much of life is just showing up. Much of life is persevering in the face of disappointment. Much of life is doing your job when it is boring and monotonous. Your son needs to learn that life is not all fun and games. You can teach him. Or the world will pound it into him. Hopefully you will be more patient and understanding than the outside world will be.


Like I said, I've tried teaching him that it's not always going to be roses. Maybe I've lost some empathy since I'm out on the road all the time and really don't interact with anyone once I go back to the hotel room at night. I've tried telling him that he doesn't always need to be occupied with something and being "bored" isn't a bad thing now and then. She's conditioned him to always need to do something. In one of our recent discussions she felt the need to tell me I should be happy that she no longer wants to do something every weekend. 

I've tried to teach him about building things, he thinks building things is stupid. He asks why we can't just buy it already built. I told him if he wanted to start cutting grass in the neighborhood for money, I would help him as long as he would help me work on and fix the equipment when it needed it. Working for money is stupid he says. I got mad at that one and told him all the things he sees around him are because people work and build things.


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## john117

Working for money is stupid.... Who would have thought. Reading is the least of your concerns. Get the kid into your counseling routine pronto, because in a few years he will hit high school and with that attitude and mentality he's going t be in BIG trouble...


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## jld

ZDog377 said:


> Like I said, I've tried teaching him that it's not always going to be roses. Maybe I've lost some empathy since I'm out on the road all the time and really don't interact with anyone once I go back to the hotel room at night. I've tried telling him that he doesn't always need to be occupied with something and being "bored" isn't a bad thing now and then. She's conditioned him to always need to do something. In one of our recent discussions she felt the need to tell me I should be happy that she no longer wants to do something every weekend.
> 
> I've tried to teach him about building things, he thinks building things is stupid. He asks why we can't just buy it already built. I told him if he wanted to start cutting grass in the neighborhood for money, I would help him as long as he would help me work on and fix the equipment when it needed it. *Working for money is stupid he says.* I got mad at that one and told him all the things he sees around him are because people work and build things.


Maybe he's going to end up on Wall Street, Z. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

ZDog, I am going to level with you, and this is not going to be pleasant, yet you desperately need to hear it.

Here is what I see in entirely too many of your posts (paraphrasing):

You: I am having a problem with X.
TAM: Try A. Also consider B. Splash in a little C.
You: I have tried a bit of B but it didn't work. A and C wont be supported by my wife. I tried my best, but my wife will not support me.
TAM: That is because you didn't do A, B, & C. You must do all three. 
You, defensive: But I tried and it didn't work! Everyone is against me and life is hard!

Then your thread gets quiet for a bit, followed by you returning to update us that nothing has changed. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Your excuses, victim mentality, and defeatist attitude is your entire problem. This is why at one thousand one hundred and eighteen posts, 122 pages, and 15 months on TAM, you are in _*exactly the same place*_ you were when you arrived at TAM. Quite frankly, it would not surprise me if this has a good bit to do with why your wife does not respect you. 

If you are not here to listen AND implement, then why are you actually here?

If you want to fix your situation, stop feeling sorry for yourself and actually try implementing the advice of people here, for more than just one time or one day, without throwing your hands in the air and planting your @ss in the victim chair.


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## MarriedTex

ZDog377 said:


> We have tried everything to get him to like reading. They have to read 75 Minutes a week to school. Our local library is walking distance from our house and we have tried all different kinds of books, I gr8 Sports Illustrated and he won't even read those.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OK, try this. 11 years old is perfect for the Harry Potter series. Suggest getting the book and that you want to read it too. Spend a half-hour/45 minutes reading to him every night before bed. It's like training wheels for enjoying the written word. You get "wife points" for spending time with the boy, and the book drives the interaction / conversation so reduced risk of conflict. The Harry Potter series should take you three or four months. From there you go on to Hobbit / Lord of the Rings. Soon, he'll be wanting to "read ahead" without you.


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## ZDog377

MarriedTex said:


> OK, try this. 11 years old is perfect for the Harry Potter series. Suggest getting the book and that you want to read it too. Spend a half-hour/45 minutes reading to him every night before bed. It's like training wheels for enjoying the written word. You get "wife points" for spending time with the boy, and the book drives the interaction / conversation so reduced risk of conflict. The Harry Potter series should take you three or four months. From there you go on to Hobbit / Lord of the Rings. Soon, he'll be wanting to "read ahead" without you.


Sounds good, I'll try and get it from the library this weekend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron

Your son's overall attitude about motivation and work will land him in the state pen as an adult.


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## turnera

ZDog377 said:


> I've tried telling him that he doesn't always need to be occupied with something and being "bored" isn't a bad thing now and then.


You're missing the point. We told you to set a rule AND WALK AWAY. You don't TELL him shyte except what the rules are and, if he asks, WHY the rules are. He is then free to figure it out on his own.

Note: All the Authoritative Parenting sites I provided earlier will explain all this much better; I assume you're no longer listening to me anyway, since you're convinced I'm so mean. So read the material. Ask a therapist about it, if you won't believe me.

NO kid wants to listen to a set of dysfunctional parents what he's doing wrong. That's why you DON'T tell him what he's doing wrong. You tell him what he CAN be doing to IMPROVE his life, and then you leave it up to him to decide.



ZDog377 said:


> She's conditioned him to always need to do something. In one of our recent discussions she felt the need to tell me I should be happy that she no longer wants to do something every weekend.


Again, the man as leader of the home would just shrug and say 'that's not how it's going to be' (to him) or 'I'm sorry you feel that way' (to her).



ZDog377 said:


> I've tried to teach him about building things, he thinks building things is stupid. He asks why we can't just buy it already built. I told him if he wanted to start cutting grass in the neighborhood for money, I would help him as long as he would help me work on and fix the equipment when it needed it. Working for money is stupid he says. I got mad at that one and told him all the things he sees around him are because people work and build things.


Again, we're trying to help you get into the weeds on how to deal with these very specific instances. You don't 'teach' him stuff, especially if you two are dysfunctional to begin with - he has long since put BOTH of you into the 'lame' category; translation: not to be listened to, because you're clueless, out of touch, and stupid. It's what kids his age do. Unless the two of you have created a loving, safe environment where he feels he's part of a great team, the only way he will now cooperate is if he determines that it's in his best interests to do what you suggest. 

You don't teach him stuff - he learns through watching, participating, suffering consequences. If he asks why he can't just buy something already built, you lead by saying "I don't pay money for something I can build myself. If YOU want something that you could have built yourself, you're free to figure out how to earn some money to USE to buy that thing. I'll be glad to help you figure out some ways to do that. Just let me know. In the meantime, I'll help you build it if you want it now." And then you WALK AWAY and let him decide. And stop by your wife, wherever she is, and INFORM her what your position is and that if she tries to undermine what you told him, you will have words about it; not to mention that you will counteract any steps she takes to just GIVE him something he didn't earn.

That is how kids learn. Not by lectures. Not by 'teaching.'


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## Nucking Futs

Z, the way you describe how your kid is reacting to you is very similar to how you're reacting to us. We're not in any kind of position of authority over you, that's a big difference, but you're resisting us the same way he's resisting you. You've got several posters trying to lead you to success, Turnera is trying to spoon feed it to you, and you're just not having any of it. It gets frustrating.


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## Daisy12

I have to say raising kids is hard, but it gets even harder when both parents are not on the same page. I think you first plan of action would be to sit down with your wife and try to come to an agreament on how you want this young man to behave and what his responsiblites will be and what behavior is ok or not. I get from you post that this child is not your biological child, i could be wrong but depending on what age he was when you came into his life it may be best for you to step back and let your wife take care of the punishment and she needs to be 100% responsible for him. If this is not the case and he is your biological son, well there are things you can do.

You need to stop engaging this child with taunts, arguments, nagging and constant reminders. If you had someone nagging you all day you wouldn't like it. Instead of nagging and arguing with this child make him accountable for his action. The parents hold all the power in the house. You control every aspect of this childs life. If he mouths off to you in the morning, ignore it but when ever he comes to you wanting anything, a drive to a friends house, playing catch in the back yard, playing video games you better believe your answer should be, "no i didn't appreciate the way i was talked to this morning so i won't be doing that or letting you go to...etc.." Then walk away and do not engage even if he tries to argue. He's not respectful while playing video games then sorry when he asks to play them he is told no because he was not behaving appropriatly while using them. Use this time to explain the importance of being a good loser are respectfull of other's feeling. 

Do not nag your child. Do not yell, argue, call names, or treat your child with a lack of respect. Treat him how you want to be treated. I never tell my child at the age of 11 to do something twice. They are not stupid. They know what is expected and if they fail to do their chores or talk repectfully then let them have the consquence of their action. They don't do their chores, you don't let them have a friend over..etc. As an adult no one if going to chase them around to do what they are told. Teach them to chose to behave properly because when you don't life at home gets pretty boring... bread and water treatment. Let natural consquences be a teacher and dont bail them out when they don't do what they are suppose to. Let them take the punishment and consequences for their actions. 

Wishing you all the best, raising kids is hard and it's a good sign you care that your son turns in to a well behaved young man.


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## turnera

Wanna know the most often used comment out of my mouth when DD26 was between 10 and 13? 

"Sucks to be you."

Meaning, you got the result you put in. Not my problem any more. and she knew it. She quickly figured out that, to get what SHE wanted, she had to spend some time figuring out what I wanted. Today I'm her best friend. Because she trusts me to love her unconditionally (that's reserved for kids, not spouses, btw), respect her, never judge her, always encourage her. I am the SAFE person in her life.

Are you doing that? Really?


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## ZDog377

MarriedTex said:


> OK, try this. 11 years old is perfect for the Harry Potter series. Suggest getting the book and that you want to read it too. Spend a half-hour/45 minutes reading to him every night before bed. It's like training wheels for enjoying the written word. You get "wife points" for spending time with the boy, and the book drives the interaction / conversation so reduced risk of conflict. The Harry Potter series should take you three or four months. From there you go on to Hobbit / Lord of the Rings. Soon, he'll be wanting to "read ahead" without you.


So we went to the library today, just me and him. I suggested getting one of the Harry Potter books, he looked at me like I had three heads. We talked for a few minutes about what kind of books he was looking for. He settled on an Army type book in the young adult section, along with a book of NFL stats/records from 2007. We read for about 15 minutes when we got home. I helped him through some words, we will do some reading later tonight when we get home.


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## john117

*Re: Wife feels &quot;touched out&quot;*

If he's into shooter type games, military history is a good thing to read. When I was his age I read all my father's army manuals. From doctrine to political theories to war history to specific tactics... Didn't always understand 100%, but by the time I finished high school I had a very solid grasp of many things Army. 

Supplement that with TV or Netflix of good historical programming and you can see where it's going. I was his age when my father took me to see "Patton"... we watched "Combat!" together every week. As I grew older we spent a lot of quality time together, a time I still cherish. 

At the last part of his career he was Army intelligence, and taught me many useful skills he used at work in investigations, interviews...

But the most important part is to be together and do things. Which is what I did with my own daughters. 

Keep working at it TOGETHER, and offer small rewards as he progresses. Take pride in what he does.


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## farsidejunky

ZDog377 said:


> So we went to the library today, just me and him. I suggested getting one of the Harry Potter books, he looked at me like I had three heads. We talked for a few minutes about what kind of books he was looking for. He settled on an Army type book in the young adult section, along with a book of NFL stats/records from 2007. We read for about 15 minutes when we got home. I helped him through some words, we will do some reading later tonight when we get home.


Excellent, Z.


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## turnera

ZDog377 said:


> So we went to the library today, just me and him. I suggested getting one of the Harry Potter books, he looked at me like I had three heads. We talked for a few minutes about what kind of books he was looking for. He settled on an Army type book in the young adult section, along with a book of NFL stats/records from 2007. We read for about 15 minutes when we got home. I helped him through some words, we will do some reading later tonight when we get home.


Perfect!

The only thing I would change is that I would look for opportunities to read TO him, to get that flavor for the wonders you can find in the 'real' books. Maybe start with Tom Sawyer - what boy could resist being him or Huck Finn?
Just find some really great passages; tell him you've been reading the book and you just had to share this passage with somebody, and who better but him? And then read 3 or 4 pages of some of the most exciting or adventurous stuff, like rafting down the river or something. With someone who already believes books are stupid, you have to kind of subtly rope them in to what wonders lie in those pages. 

Anybody got some suggestions on snippets from great books for kids?

As for what he chose, it IS perfect - for him, at this point. Reading is reading. If he continues down the sports path, work with it. Find some really great sports stories, maybe Rudy or something like that. Tell him since he's reading sports you thought you'd give it a try, too, and wow, this stuff is awesome! Just listen to this part you just read! And so on.

But great job. Seriously. I've put some lists below on good books to look out for, for reluctant readers or kids who want to read about sports. 

btw, guess what my DD26's most cherished time in her childhood was? It was the weekly or biweekly trips she and I made to the library, just her and me. It was great bonding time. We'd make a game out of finding this or that book, or a book on a subject, and we'd read to each other to see who picked the better book. Stuff like that. And then we went on to attending the library's semi-annual book sales and picking up bargains on books we got to keep.

The other most cherished time? Signing her up for a book club, where she got to pick a book every month, and it would be sent in the mail to her - just her. Coolest thing ever.

See, there are lots of ways to make reading fun, rewarding, even cherished. It's all in your (the parent's) attitude.

btw, please still inquire with his teachers to ensure he's not dyslexic or behind a grade or two. 'Stupid' and such are common reactions to reading when you're having trouble.

Top 12 Young Adult Books for Reluctant Readers | TeachHUB

(middle school books about sports for boys) Middle School Boys Sports Books

(best kids' sports books)
Best Kids Sports books (27 books)

(sports FICTION books - even better than biographies because they can imagine themselves in the lead role)
https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/sports-fiction


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## Holdingontoit

As @john117 said, if he likes first person shooter games then you might want to try military history. There are some very exciting and engaging stories out there. Also, after you read the books you can often find a movie about them that you could watch together. And discuss the differences between the movie and the book. That gets him to do some critical thinking and analyzing.


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## ZDog377

He picked up a Civil War book once and seemed interested in it for about a week then it just tailed off. We should have some more time to read his book this week/weekend as well. 

Counseling went well I feel again today. I definitely feel better after going. She gave me some things to do so that I could clean up "my side of the street". Mrs. Z is going to come to the appointment next week as long as we can find child care.


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## turnera

There's only so much 'cleaning up my side of the street' that needs to go on before you start demanding change.

Again, gently, as I've suggested ten times before, that's what kids do. They get bored. They look for something else. They say 'this is lame.' It's what's kids do.

If you can't make yourself the ADULT in the situation, he/she will continue to CONTROL you.


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## ZDog377

turnera said:


> There's only so much 'cleaning up my side of the street' that needs to go on before you start demanding change.


That's what she said as well.

I'll admit that things got busy later Saturday and Sunday so not getting to read with him was 100% my fault. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

ZDog377 said:


> That's what she said as well.
> 
> I'll admit that things got busy later Saturday and Sunday so not getting to read with him was 100% my fault.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Come on, Z. Get real. Who gives a f*ck who is blaming you? You need to be a father. Right now. A husband. 

Until you are man enough to stand up for what you believe in, you will always be 'that' person' who took the easy way out

And got none of what he wanted.


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## ZDog377

turnera said:


> Come on, Z. Get real. Who gives a f*ck who is blaming you? You need to be a father. Right now. A husband.
> 
> Until you are man enough to stand up for what you believe in, you will always be 'that' person' who took the easy way out
> 
> And got none of what he wanted.


I was just stating a fact that's all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

And I'm asking you to start 'redefining' who you are and what you do, just a tad, like maybe 3 degrees from where you were, and start thinking differently, making different choices, effecting good change. It's great that you're here, asking for advice. At some point, it's time to start making those changes.


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## ZDog377

Just wanted to post a quick update since I've been going to counseling myself for about two months and she's been going along for about a month. The counselor has brought up a few things to her about her behavior that I can tell she was not happy with. The counselor has brought up that she has many addictive behaviors in the marriage. I've actually started to spend more time apart from her and things have been getting better. I've been able to spend more time with the kids even though it's stupid stuff like walking around Sears and the mall while looking at tools. Counseling has shown me some unhealthy behaviors I have but I know they will take time to change. Finally, I've stood up for things I felt strongly about such as discipline for the kids and finances. About 75% of the time she will stick with me on discipline, which is better than what it used to be. 

Now for the bad....I've caught her in two more lies about her credit card. Once she says she just needed some help with Christmas stuff, I just checked it tonight and I'm going to confront her in the morning. She had about $50 left over from interest charges when she paid it off last month and she's back up to a $300 balance. Second, she finally had her weight loss surgery. While she was in surgery, her phone goes off with a message from a guy that I swear I have never heard her talk about before. I read further back into the conversation and find out that he had the same surgery back in 2013 and has supposedly done well since. Leading up to this surgery, she has given me a laundry list of reasons why she wanted to get it done. They ranged from health to wanting to be able to do more with the kids. In the conversation with this guy, she tells him that he was the inspiration for her getting it done and that it was also hard keeping good foods in the house because of me and the three kids. Now, this is a guy that she has supposedly not seen since her first year in college (2001) and has only gotten updates on from Facebook. 

Now, I know that this was kind of crappy to do but I confronted her about it after surgery. The whole time she just couldn't figure out what the big deal was and she hadn't seen him in so long and so on. I explained to her that it was more hurtful that she never once mentioned anything about her and I as a reason for getting it done. We were laying in bed tonight and I told her the times I've caught her in a problem these past few months her only reaction is to push away the blame and shift it to something else. I explained that I may not agree with her side of the argument but I at least try and see where she is coming from.

In the end, I definitely feel better about myself after going to counseling. It will take a little bit of time for me to work on these things, but I 100% believe I can do it.


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## Satya

While she's recovering from surgery, give her the book, "Not Just Friends" by the late Dr. Shirley Glass to read.


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## farsidejunky

That is either a budding or active EA.

Watch it like a hawk, Zdog.


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## 269370

Hi @ZDog377,

Thanks for your message. I thought I reply here just to keep things tidy. I did read some of your posts (but probably not enough, it's a long thread) to try and work out what the problem might be. The thing is, it could be so many things and while the symptoms of our problems may look the same, the underlying causes may be totally different. Most of the work is trying to identify the cause. So I read that you guys have a 1 year old baby: it is possible that hormones still play a big part in the bedroom department. Especially if your wife is still nursing the baby, her sex drive won't be back to normal levels yet. Sex 2-3 times a month would be too little for me: I would bring it up that it is a big issue; since your sex drives are such a mismatch, she ought to make an effort (there are other things apart from sex she can offer you help with...). It shouldn't be an embarrassment to ask but it would certainly help ease things quite a lot. If she's unwilling then at least you know where you stand (or where she is at), so that you can take it from there...

One thing that got me concerned was mention of the FB messages to a guy you never heard of: you have to be careful here. She might be getting emotionally attached to someone, knowingly or unknowingly. She needs to know this is a big deal to you and might break up the marriage in essence, if she continues. When I found out about my wife messaging some guy (many years ago), I moved out for a few nights (it was borderline inappropriate, not really an EA). She needs to understand that losing you might be a reality and snap out of it. (If it is indeed something more than a polite conversation).

You mentioned there might be some addictions as well?

In terms of things in bed itself...Actually a massage is a nice way to take things into different directions. My wife gets quite horny from massage + some dirty talk (it seems she likes me pretending to be some random masseur who breaks the ethical codes of massage on a regular basis...which gets her so wet that we can end up doing pretty much anything). Although to be honest, I am not sure I am that happy about being some "random guy" in her mind. But I do like end up doing "anything" to her. Basically I haven't made up my mind what to think about it since the benefits of us ending up with a steamy sex session currently outweigh my insecurities of her pretending that I am someone else...


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## 269370

In terms of her finding you attractive only when you spend time with the kids: this is something I experienced too. I think it stems form the fact that my wife finds having a family a comforting thing for her. What bothered (and occasionally still bothers me) is the fact that she only sees me + the kids as a unit together. And not me, as her man (who she desires), independently from the kids.
This is frustrating and we have talked about it many times. I think she understands it now from my perspective and makes more of an effort.
Provided there are no other issues (see the FB comment), I think this can be remedied with a bit of effort on both parts: going out together (just two of you), doing some romantic stuff, weekends away together are great as well (not so realistic with a 1 year old) etc. Marriage can also get stale, plain and simple. It is not natural to always behave like you two just met but it is not unnatural to re-enact things, try to connect, maybe talk about how you met and what turned you on about each other when you first met etc?

Also: the touching business is mostly about habit as well. Make it a habit to kiss & touch each other more during the day. If it bothers her, tell her that it bothers you more if you DON't do it!

But also be aware of her cycle: my wife turns into a monster just before the time of the month. No touching then! She PMSs the [email protected] out of me if I try!! You have to be strong...and just count to 20 and remember it will pass.... Or better plan a golfing session or whatever it is you can do outside the house to avoid.


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## ZDog377

inmyprime said:


> In terms of her finding you attractive only when you spend time with the kids: this is something I experienced too. I think it stems form the fact that my wife finds having a family a comforting thing for her. What bothered (and occasionally still bothers me) is the fact that she only sees me + the kids as a unit together. And not me, as her man (who she desires), independently from the kids.
> This is frustrating and we have talked about it many times. I think she understands it now from my perspective and makes more of an effort.
> Provided there are no other issues (see the FB comment), I think this can be remedied with a bit of effort on both parts: going out together (just two of you), doing some romantic stuff, weekends away together are great as well (not so realistic with a 1 year old) etc. Marriage can also get stale, plain and simple. It is not natural to always behave like you two just met but it is not unnatural to re-enact things, try to connect, maybe talk about how you met and what turned you on about each other when you first met etc?
> 
> Also: the touching business is mostly about habit as well. Make it a habit to kiss & touch each other more during the day. If it bothers her, tell her that it bothers you more if you DON't do it!
> 
> But also be aware of her cycle: my wife turns into a monster just before the time of the month. No touching then! She PMSs the [email protected] out of me if I try!! You have to be strong...and just count to 20 and remember it will pass.... Or better plan a golfing session or whatever it is you can do outside the house to avoid.


 @inmyprime, our youngest is two now so we have three boys...11, 4 and 2. My dad will usually take one if not both of the younger two but there are issues with the oldest. He's what I consider rude and a pain anytime we go over my dad's house. That's a story for another day. She's also not easy to detach from mommy mode either, she constantly wants to do things with the kids. 

No "hard core" addictions to speak of, just eating and impulsiveness. The impulsiveness has stretched into financial issues with us.


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## ZDog377

This is my last update and I'm probably done. Things have got so bad to the point where I have an appointment with a psychiatric treatment place next Monday. I also mentioned that I didn't feel that the regular counseling was doing much and asked her if we could go see a sex therapist instead. Maybe this person could help her understand how it feels when a guy can't finish and also hearing about how she has no desire for intimacy effect a person. 

I finally found someone the other day and went back and forth with some emails. I asked my wife if she was willing to be 100% all in on this because after child care and everything else, each visit will probably be $100 or so. Her first words were "if this doesn't change anything, is that something you can live with for the rest of your life?" That statement right there felt like the final nail in the coffin and made me feel just about as worthless as anything. I was in a bad place that night and considered ending things. We didn't get to bed until around 12 that night and I asked her if we could go to bed early the next night after the basketball tourney for our oldest. She said no problem at all. 

We stopped at the grocery store on the way home and she got a call from a friend asking her to go out for a little bit that night. Long story short, before she left that night I told her how I had felt the other night. Now she has told me that she fears for herself and the kids also how I need to move my guns to a friends house. Not once has she asked me how I got to that point or what she could do to help.....I'm lost and in a hole I feel like I'll never get out of....


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## Cynthia

I'm glad you are seeking further help.

Your wife is not trying to analyze the situation on how you got to this point because she is afraid and is trying to deal with the immediate safety of the family.

I don't think your wife has it in her to really deal with what is wrong. She is unwilling to face her issues. But you don't need her to face her issues in order for you to face your own.

Perhaps you should start a new thread with an entirely different topic; not about your marriage, but about your mental health and improving that so you have support. Your wife is not supportive and there is no way to make her supportive. Seek help from other sources; sources that are willing to help you and care about how you feel. 
I don't think leaving the forum is the answer, but I could be wrong. I don't want you to harm yourself.


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## ZDog377

@CynthiaDe, I didn't mean leave the forum entirely. Kind of just closing out the thread. Would you recommend starting another thread in the mental health forum?


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## Cynthia

ZDog377 said:


> @CynthiaDe, I didn't mean leave the forum entirely. Kind of just closing out the thread. Would you recommend starting another thread in the mental health forum?


Yes. I think that would be good. Please post a link in this thread.

I think it would be good for you to start getting to the bottom of where your thinking is leading you to despair and how you can focus in a different direction to make changes that will help you get over the despair and into a healthier way of thinking and decision making.


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## farsidejunky

Either that or in general relationship.

Brother, no woman is worth harming yourself over.

The moment of realization that your marriage is not the fantasy that you thought it was is incredibly painful. However, you are now on the precipice, which is both beautiful and scary.

Deejo once gave me a quote when I thought I was at the end of my marriage. It is originally attributed to Seneca, but more commonly known from the band Semisonic.

"Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end."

You get to choose the direction of your story. You get to choose what becomes of the main character. You. Nobody else.

You have the ability to make yourself amazing, Z. You simply have to be willing to be uncomfortable enough to get there.


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## Cynthia

farsidejunky said:


> You have the ability to make yourself amazing, Z. You simply have to be willing to be uncomfortable enough to get there.


This is so true. You have to be willing to uncomfortable for things to get better. It's okay to be uncomfortable or at times even to have pain if it takes us to someplace better.


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## Blossom Leigh

I am glad to see this shift Zdog... something had to give, just do NOT chose self destruction. That is unfair to your past effort to stop others from destroying you if you then go on to destroy yourself. 

I see brighter tomorrows for you....


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