# Frustrated and need advice



## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

My frustration level has reached new heights and I need a third party perspective to let me know if I am off base or on point.

My wife has next to no sex drive. Today, she actually categorized having sex with me as "another Chore like working on the house, you don't want to do it, but then you do and it is allright".

For years I have been trying anything to get some intimacy and affection from her. If I touch her, even just a hand on the leg for affection while watching TV, she will make some sort of excuse, like I'm tired or just get up and walk away to avoid physical contact. She will say I am tired at 7:30 PM then proceed to watch TV, read, go on facebook etc for hours (obviously not tired). It feels like reading her book or watching some ridiculously unimportant TV show is more important than her husband.

We had a period of sex once in six months which drove me to unbelievable daily frutration. After making a commitment to have scheduled sex (last stitch efforts on my part) she did it once, then never said anything about the schedule and completely ignored me for months.

Some background, she is very attractive, and I am extremely attracted to her. I am fit and in shape, good looking and we are both 33 years old.

I've tried everything to get her to pay attention to me... doing absolutlely everything that could be done around the house for months (trying to take the work load off her), showering her with hugs and I love you's, giving her space, you name it, I've tried it.

I really do love her and everytime we discuss the issue, she makes it out that I am in the wrong for wanting intimacy. She says that all her friends only have sex once a month at best. She is totally have fine with having sex once every couple of month (six times per year).

Prior to our marriage, sex was great at first, after a few years of dating, our sex life suddenly turned south and I became suspicious. After months of asking what was wrong and not getting an answer, I found many totally inappropriate emails with a co-worker of hers. She claims nothing happened and "it was just email / chat fun". I have never believed her and always associate her lack of intimacy with her not being faithful in my mind (although I don't say anything to her about it these days because it happened long ago). It may sound dumb, but this really bothers me to this day, mostly because I feel she never totally came clean. I completely relieve the pain of this repeatedly and came seem to let this go.

I really want our marriage to work and love my wife, but am totally hurt by the constant rejection. Her telling me that intimacy with her is like a household chore confirms my suspicions that she wants nothing to do with it. She will always say she wants to do something about it when we discuss it, but then does nothing at all. 

When we do have sex, it is usually like she is "letting me do it" to try to appease me and this actually doesn't satisfy what is missing for me at all.

I am starting to feel like life is too short to live like this day in and day out. My hopes of this issue getting better have basically completely left me.

Am I wrong to want intimacy with my wife? I am a good guy, great provider, attractive and this is not how I envisioned my married life at all. Am I just an idiot for being treated like this? What do I do?

Advice?


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

hi there re16, i am in a marraige that is almost sexless, there are a lot of similarities between yours and my story, unfortunately i am on this forum for advice also, my wife and i have sex about once a month and even then its a chore for her, which means there is no fun in it what so ever, i love my wife dearly but all i am is a provider, she also refuses to go to any counselling which means i am at breaking point, i would love to give you some life changing advice but i dont really know what to do myself, i will say that i wish you all the luck in the world though.


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

Hi Re16
I think if you don't have reason to think she is having an affair to put that completely out of your mind (you mentioned something along those lines above).

I look forward to answers to this, as it seems like it has something to do with women, as the relationship progresses? 

Perhaps there needs to be an emotional spark of excitement or living dangerously or unpredictably, that some women here can relate to as being a spark for sex? There was something unfamiliar or exciting at the start it seems for most of us.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

T2 Method (summary of THE PLAN)....

BTW...YOU made sex a chore for her. Main reason is you were WEAK. You were not the LEADER of your household. You allowed your wife to call the shots...STOP IT!

1. Really deeply look in the mirror. "Would you have sex with you?"
2. Fix yourself/BE CONSISTENT 
3. Become an expert on Women's needs.
4. Analyze what needs to happen in your marriage.
5. Correct all marital flaws you can without your partner/Stand up to spouse anytime she disrespects you. (Should only take a few times)
6. State your needs as long as they are reasonable. REPEATEDLY. DO NOT WAIVER.
7. Hold your spouse accountable for inaction in meeting those needs. (Threaten security)
8. Enjoy results.

BE PATIENT and remain STRONG, maintain SANITY. Fix yourself THEN fix them.... FIX your marriage.

It will get worse before it gets better. NO QUICK FIX each step takes TIME.

FULL DETAILS after consistent results in mine. This does work (as long as love is there) just takes time.
Have a PLAN. Men can only survive this having a PLAN.

Your welcome.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If I read your post correctly, she turned off the sex faucet before you got married but you married her anyway. Maybe she just doesn't like sex. Maybe she just doesn't like it with you. I think most of us can agree that serially withholding sex from one's spouse is cruel and a practice unlikely to promote a healthy marriage. When she treats you badly, you reward her by showering her with affection and working like a slave to win her approval. You wouldn't train a kid, a dog, or an employee that way. Bad performance should result in bad results and good performance should result in positive results. She gets something from this marriage. More than likely, it's security. Identify what's important about the marriage to her and make sure she understands that withholding sex puts that thing at serious risk. Quit moping after her for sex. Appear happy and confident but find something else to do with your time than hanging around a house with a woman who pushes you away. It wouldn't hurt if you occupied your time somewhere where there is an abundance of quality, attractive women (threats to her security).


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

re16 said:


> My wife has next to no sex drive. Today, she actually categorized having sex with me as "another Chore like working on the house, you don't want to do it, but then you do and it is allright".


That's because she's not attracted to you. Sorry to be blunt.



re16 said:


> For years I have been trying anything to get some intimacy and affection from her. If I touch her, even just a hand on the leg for affection while watching TV, she will make some sort of excuse, like I'm tired or just get up and walk away to avoid physical contact. She will say I am tired at 7:30 PM then proceed to watch TV, read, go on facebook etc for hours (obviously not tired). It feels like reading her book or watching some ridiculously unimportant TV show is more important than her husband.


That's because it is. She is too polite to tell you bluntly that she doesn't want any contact with you. So, she makes stupid excuses and you pretend to believe them. That way, you don't have to have an argument about why you're only roommates.



re16 said:


> We had a period of sex once in six months which drove me to unbelievable daily frutration. After making a commitment to have scheduled sex (last stitch efforts on my part) she did it once, then never said anything about the schedule and completely ignored me for months.


Totally typical. Wives who aren't attracted to their husbands can go for years in this cycle. Sex slows to a trickle. Husband finally has the "sex or else" talk. She promises to do better. She has sex a few times. Then, sex slows back to a trickle. Repeat.



re16 said:


> Some background, she is very attractive, and I am extremely attracted to her. I am fit and in shape, good looking and we are both 33 years old.


Is she more attractive than you? On a sex rank scale, is she an 8 and you're a 6? If so, that's a problem.



re16 said:


> I've tried everything to get her to pay attention to me... doing absolutlely everything that could be done around the house for months (trying to take the work load off her), showering her with hugs and I love you's, giving her space, you name it, I've tried it.


You've been trying all the wrong things. Women aren't attracted to butlers. So why are you trying to be her butler?



re16 said:


> I really do love her and everytime we discuss the issue, she makes it out that I am in the wrong for wanting intimacy. She says that all her friends only have sex once a month at best. She is totally have fine with having sex once every couple of month (six times per year).


A marriage where sex occurs less than 10 times per year is clinically defined as nonsexual, or sexless. According to the National Survey of Sexual Health and Behavior, for married couples in their 30s, 5% haven't had sex in the past year. 16% have sex a few times a year to monthly. 47% have sex a few times a month to weekly. 27% have sex 2-3 times per week. And, 6% have sex 4 or more times per week. So, maybe her friends all fall into the 20% of marriages that are monthly or less. But, she's probably just lying to you because her girlfriends are in the 80% that have sex more than once a month.



re16 said:


> Prior to our marriage, sex was great at first, after a few years of dating, our sex life suddenly turned south and I became suspicious. After months of asking what was wrong and not getting an answer, I found many totally inappropriate emails with a co-worker of hers. She claims nothing happened and "it was just email / chat fun". I have never believed her and always associate her lack of intimacy with her not being faithful in my mind (although I don't say anything to her about it these days because it happened long ago). It may sound dumb, but this really bothers me to this day, mostly because I feel she never totally came clean. I completely relieve the pain of this repeatedly and came seem to let this go.


Yep. Sudden sexual decline is a big red flag for infidelity. She cheated on you. But I'm not surprised she lied about it. Why wouldn't she? Cheating is lying on its face. You had the evidence and you let her explain it away and sweep it under the rug. Bad move. What you actually need to do today is to investigate her to see if she's still cheating, or cheating again. And you don't investigate her by asking her. Put keylogger software on her computer so you can read her email and Facebook messages. Put a voice-activated recorder (VAR) under the seat of her car so you can listen to her conversations when she thinks she has privacy. Look at your credit card statements for suspicious activity. Once you rule out another man, you can try to attract her.



re16 said:


> I am starting to feel like life is too short to live like this day in and day out. My hopes of this issue getting better have basically completely left me.


I'm not surprised. But in order to resolve this issue, you have to take action. And whining to your wife is not action. Whining to your wife just turns her off more. It will never work.



re16 said:


> Am I wrong to want intimacy with my wife? I am a good guy, great provider, attractive and this is not how I envisioned my married life at all. Am I just an idiot for being treated like this? What do I do?
> 
> Advice?


You're not wrong for wanting a sexual marriage. You've just gone about it the wrong way. You can't "nice" a woman out of an affair. You can't "nice" a woman into bed with you. You have to seduce her. You have to attract her. And your wife isn't attracted to you.

Check out Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.

Run Athol's MAP. You need to improve yourself in order to attract your wife. If your wife refuses to be attracted to you, at least you will be better positioned to enter the dating scene after your divorce.

Good luck.


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

Henri said:


> Hi Re16
> I think if you don't have reason to think she is having an affair to put that completely out of your mind (you mentioned something along those lines above).
> 
> I look forward to answers to this, as it seems like it has something to do with women, as the relationship progresses?
> ...


:iagree:








_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

You sure have done a lot of rewarding of her bad behavior. When your dog chews up the couch do you give it a treat? When your kid breaks curfew do you buy him a car? What's with all the cooking and cleaning and 'I love you's'? With all the reinforcing you're doing she probably thinks she's the wife of the century.


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

The majority of answers seem to indicate that: being a nice to your wife results in no sex. Really?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Henri you're reading it wrong. Being extra nice in response to her being not nice reinforces the not nice behavior. I'm very nice to my wife and do lots around the house. But then, I'm rewarding "good" behavior.


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

OK, thanks WorkingOnMe, that makes sense.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

All good advice. I realize that my original post must have read like I have just been catering to her in attempt to please and that is it. Yes, I tired that but it definitely wasn't the initial path I took.

She thinks that I am someone that will speak my mind and won't put up with any BS. By no means am I a pushover. I run a large company in industry full of alpha males. I let her know that I am frustrated. She receives negative feedback about this issue regularly, but apparently not enough based on the advice above.

As for the attractiveness, I think we are equals. Do I think she is really not attracted to me and that is part of the problem... maybe this is true - tough to consider this as the issue - but could be.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Ask her whether she thinks sex is important in a marriage. If she says yes, ask her why shes not interested. If she says no, tell her since it isn't important she probably wont mind you finding it elsewhere.

You promised monogamy, not celibacy.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

> Ask her whether she thinks sex is important in a marriage.


She says it is not important to her.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I bet it turns into something important when you spend the night at a new woman's house....


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

re16 said:


> All good advice. I realize that my original post must have read like I have just been catering to her in attempt to please and that is it. Yes, I tired that but it definitely wasn't the initial path I took.
> 
> She thinks that I am someone that will speak my mind and won't put up with any BS. By no means am I a pushover. I run a large company in industry full of alpha males. I let her know that I am frustrated. She receives negative feedback about this issue regularly, but apparently not enough based on the advice above.
> 
> As for the attractiveness, I think we are equals. Do I think she is really not attracted to me and that is part of the problem... maybe this is true - tough to consider this as the issue - but could be.


What kind of negative feedback? Another comment, or do you provide it with your actions as well? If you tell her that something is a problem, but continue to do all that same nice things to her, what do you expect her to take away?

Consider that she is sending you mixed messages right now. She says things are fine but her actions tell you otherwise. What are you listening to?

While you work on things, you do need to snoop a bit. Rule out any cheating. I don't know if she is, but you can't solve anything if there is another man in the picture.


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## Cara (Aug 15, 2010)

PHTlump said:


> That's because she's not attracted to you. Sorry to be blunt.
> 
> 
> That's because it is. She is too polite to tell you bluntly that she doesn't want any contact with you. So, she makes stupid excuses and you pretend to believe them. That way, you don't have to have an argument about why you're only roommates.
> ...


Re16, print out this reply, put it into your pocket, and and every time you feel yourself falling into the same old habits, take it out and read the whole thing. This reply hits all the points that will set you in the right direction.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Re16,

I agree with the others who say you need to snoop a bit just to make sure she isn't up to her old tricks. You may also get insight into what she REALLY feels about you.

Also buy 2 voice activated recorders (VARs) and place one under the driver's seat of her var with heavy duty velcro. Use the second one for switching out with the first so you can listen to one while the other is recording

Also as others have said, stop doing ANYTHING for her. No compliments, no dishwashing no NOTHING

get involved with friends or hobbies and don't include her. She's not holding up her end of the marriage contract so why should you?


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## smilinatu (Jan 9, 2012)

RE16, PHTlump advised you to snoop, and I am not saying you should not. Frankly, that would be my first instinct, too. But PHTlump suggested:

"What you actually need to do today is to investigate her to see if she's still cheating, or cheating again. ... Put a voice-activated recorder (VAR) under the seat of her car so you can listen to her conversations when she thinks she has privacy."

DO NOT DO THAT! I don't know where you live, but if in the USA, placing a recorder in her car is a violation of federal law and also most (probably all) state laws. I'm not suggesting you will actually be prosecuted -- most prosecutors would probably decline the case if it came to them in the abstract -- but you will be crossing a line here which could come back to haunt you in many ways. If you do it, you better hide it well. I can just imagine her reaction after the guys at the carwash show it to her.

In addition to that, the radio would probably set off the voice activation and run the tape out before her phone even rings. 

I do not know if you could afford to hire a private investigator, but that would be a better alternative, if you can afford it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Why did you marry her if she cut sex out before marriage while cheating (at least an EA if not a PA) and refused to even admit it. 

Why do you allow a situation where she refuses basic affection? 

We all have access to Google - so you flat out know (in the first world) that sex once a month in your thirties is a massive sign of dysfunction or an affair. Why would you allow her to make factually false statements to you on a critical topic? 

Is the company you run family owned?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I believe we teach others how to treat us. If you accept ill treatment as a way of life, you're going to get it. At work, if you were lazy, disrespectful, unproductive, etc, what would happen? If your boss shoveled on the praise and gave you raises, would you alter your behavior? If I praise my dog and give her cookies when she craps on my floor, I shouldn't be surprised if I end up cleaning up lots of dog poop. Jumping through flaming hoops to please an indifferent or hostile woman not only reinforces her bad behavior but it's slowly training you to believe that you don't deserve decent treatment. If you put your cotton candy away and returned her indifference with the indifference it deserves, what would happen? She'd leave? So what? She's not really there. Better for her to bale and leave a vacant slot for a real woman. More likely, she'll realize that if she wants to stay in your canoe, she'll have to pick up an oar.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

smilinatu said:


> DO NOT DO THAT! I don't know where you live, but if in the USA, placing a recorder in her car is a violation of federal law and also most (probably all) state laws. I'm not suggesting you will actually be prosecuted -- most prosecutors would probably decline the case if it came to them in the abstract -- but you will be crossing a line here which could come back to haunt you in many ways.
> 
> Also depends whose name is on the title of the car
> 
> None of this is admissable in court anyway and for the most part, many states are no fault so it doesn't matter anyway. It would be just another avenue for the OP to find out what his wife is REALLY up to!


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## smilinatu (Jan 9, 2012)

Toffer said:


> smilinatu said:
> 
> 
> > DO NOT DO THAT! I don't know where you live, but if in the USA, placing a recorder in her car is a violation of federal law and also most (probably all) state laws. I'm not suggesting you will actually be prosecuted -- most prosecutors would probably decline the case if it came to them in the abstract -- but you will be crossing a line here which could come back to haunt you in many ways.
> ...


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

smilinatu said:


> Toffer said:
> 
> 
> > It may or may not make a difference whose title is on the car for purposes of whether H is violating the law. That will vary greatly from state to state. But that is not the real point of my message. If she is not involved with another man, say she just has a low drive and is lazy, and she discovers the recorder(s), he will have set his cause back considerably. His best hope is some MC and it will have a better chance of succeeding if he has not violated her privacy by placing a recorder in her car. JMO, not condemning other views.
> ...


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## smilinatu (Jan 9, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> smilinatu said:
> 
> 
> > I would argue she lost that moral high ground when she cheated on the OP the first time.
> ...


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

smilinatu said:


> Tall Average Guy said:
> 
> 
> > From what he said in the first post, it sounds like she flirted or had an emotional affair. Maybe she chatted, but he has not even said she did so. Only that he has always doubted whether she had. Also, I may be mistaken, but did he marry her after that event. If so, it seems unreasonable to say she has no expectation of privacy.
> ...


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## smilinatu (Jan 9, 2012)

Just to be absolutely clear, I'm not suggesting he has no right to "investigate" her current behavior. Indeed, since I suggested a PI in an earlier post, it should be clear I do not have moral qualms about him checking into whether she is cheating. I just want to try to reduce the chances that she discovers a recorder, making his current bad situation worse.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

> Why did you marry her if she cut sex out before marriage while cheating (at least an EA if not a PA) and refused to even admit it.


I satisfied that I had the truth out of the whole scenario at the time, but it is not that easy to get passed regardless of it only being an EA.



> Why do you allow a situation where she refuses basic affection?


I am not, which is why I am here. I want to fix the issue not just get divorced over it.



> We all have access to Google - so you flat out know (in the first world) that sex once a month in your thirties is a massive sign of dysfunction or an affair. Why would you allow her to make factually false statements to you on a critical topic?


Of course I called her on it, she waffles back and forth between trying to justify why she doesn't want it and acknowledging that it is not ok.



> Is the company you run family owned?


 No, I started it.

Current update: She wants to have sex on a schedule to make sure my needs are met. What are the pros and cons? At one level, I will take what I can get, but I don't know if this will fix the issue of why she did not want it in the first place.

Will getting on regular schedule somehow morph into her having a sex drive again or is this a slippery slope?

What are the chances of this lasting for any period of time?


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## lifesabeach (Feb 25, 2012)

re16 said:


> Current update: She wants to have sex on a schedule to make sure my needs are met. What are the pros and cons? At one level, I will take what I can get, but I don't know if this will fix the issue of why she did not want it in the first place.
> 
> Will getting on regular schedule somehow morph into her having a sex drive again or is this a slippery slope?
> 
> What are the chances of this lasting for any period of time?


Every relationship is different so what works for some wont work for others. That said, a schedule has helped my W and I. We decided on once a week on Fridays or Saturdays. That was about a year ago and now most weeks it is at least twice sometimes 3 times a week.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> I believe we teach others how to treat us. If you accept ill treatment as a way of life, you're going to get it. At work, if you were lazy, disrespectful, unproductive, etc, what would happen? If your boss shoveled on the praise and gave you raises, would you alter your behavior? If I praise my dog and give her cookies when she craps on my floor, I shouldn't be surprised if I end up cleaning up lots of dog poop. Jumping through flaming hoops to please an indifferent or hostile woman not only reinforces her bad behavior but it's slowly training you to believe that you don't deserve decent treatment. If you put your cotton candy away and returned her indifference with the indifference it deserves, what would happen? She'd leave? So what? She's not really there. Better for her to bale and leave a vacant slot for a real woman. More likely, she'll realize that if she wants to stay in your canoe, she'll have to pick up an oar.


Pretty much sums it up...good job!
The past almost three years have been teaching my wife how to row in sync with me.
She better hurry up before I jump out of the canoe and leave her drifting.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Pretty much sums it up...good job!
> The past almost three years have been teaching my wife how to row in sync with me.
> She better hurry up before I jump out of the canoe and leave her drifting.


If it has been 3 years then the only thing you are teaching her is that you will put up with however she has been treating you. Nothing will change.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

re16 said:


> Current update: She wants to have sex on a schedule to make sure my needs are met. What are the pros and cons? At one level, I will take what I can get, but I don't know if this will fix the issue of why she did not want it in the first place.
> 
> Will getting on regular schedule somehow morph into her having a sex drive again or is this a slippery slope?
> 
> What are the chances of this lasting for any period of time?


The pro is that you get to have sex. The con is that it doesn't address why she doesn't want sex with you.

Now, a sex drive is kind of a "use it or lose it" thing. Having sex can actually make you want to have more sex and abstaining can cause your desire to wain. So, there is a chance that having a schedule can kick start your sex life and put you on the path to a sexual marriage.

On the other hand, this could be nothing more than another delaying tactic by your wife. What is your schedule? Weekly? Monthly? Beware if your Friday night sex date gets postponed indefinitely. If she puts you off for a day, fine. Otherwise, she's just trying to steer you right back to where you currently are.

I think a schedule can be fine, as long as it doesn't lull you into inaction on your core issues of intimacy and self-improvement. Keep running the MAP. Keep insisting that your needs are every bit as important as her needs. In the long run, that's the key to a sexual marriage more so than your wife being willing to hold her nose and put up with sex a couple of times a month.

Good luck.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Re16
Let me get this straight:
- you run a large company in an industry full of alpha males
- but it turns out you don't just 'run it', you founded it
- you are 33

So you started a company and grew it into a large company in the space of less then 15 years. That is very very impressive. Along the way you met someone and married. 

Let's accept a few things. She dislikes having sex with you. Actually she doesn't like you touching her at all. 

Your focus has been to press for a schedule. Why is that? What I mean is, why do you want to have sex with someone who dislikes it? 

Why haven't you focused on why she dislikes it?


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## needguidance (Aug 17, 2012)

Best advice I can give, treat her like a child. When a child reacts badly to a situation, you punish. I've learned to never EVER reward bad behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Holland said:


> If it has been 3 years then the only thing you are teaching her is that you will put up with however she has been treating you. Nothing will change.


Oh... things have changed dramatically in all other aspects just need her to turn on the sexual side. Hey part of its my fault and part of my plan I'm dictating our new balanced sex life to her. She doesn't like that. We are not going back to a lame one...ever again.

Basically two immovable spouses yet she will eventually yield because I now own the unchallenged high ground.

Short term pain long term gain... but her time will eventually run out. I'm fixing my marriage 100%.
Not going to have to worry about sex soon enough.
Trust me things will change. I agree with the treat like a child part... shes been bad.

Life is a game...I don't like to lose.

Its like fishing.... keep tension on the line never let up but don't snap that line. Wait a long while constantly either reeling or holding the tension for the fish to tire out then you have your dinner. My wife is a feisty one.... I will win. I will fix our marriage 100%.

I've been pulling the strings ever since ILYNILWY those strings all along. THE PLAN.

She should have never uttered ILYNILWY because I used that to my advantage.
Took time but that's ok almost done. Onward to a new marriage.

Always look at ant setback as an opportunity. i 'm glad she said ILYNILWY gave me this fantastic opportunity. She awoke alpha male who now leads our marriage to a sexual one.


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## Schofield25 (Oct 10, 2012)

interesting ....


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T2,
This is very disturbing to read because I know you have children. And what they are seeing is a type of abuse. It isn't illegal and yet it is still very damaging abuse. 




Trying2figureitout said:


> Oh... things have changed dramatically in all other aspects just need her to turn on the sexual side. Hey part of its my fault and part of my plan I'm dictating our new balanced sex life to her. She doesn't like that. We are not going back to a lame one...ever again.
> 
> Basically two immovable spouses yet she will eventually yield because I now own the unchallenged high ground.
> 
> ...


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> T2,
> This is very disturbing to read because I know you have children. And what they are seeing is a type of abuse. It isn't illegal and yet it is still very damaging abuse.


Mem you have no idea what goes on in my life so quit trying to paint me as some nut.. just because my methods are different and bold does not mean they are not valid.

Nothing illegal what are you talking about. No abuse either except my lack of sex.
Kids are pretty much fine. They know her and I are struggling because I leveled with them as they are old enough to understand. Good lesson for them.

I hardly ever have to raise my voice even. Its gradual mind re-engineering. Its creating
a better you and a better spouse.

It is a game... she started it and I finish it.
She had the EA not me. She said ILYNILWY not me.
Guess what shes happy and I'm happy. Win/Win.
Sex is the very last domino to fall in my plan.

This is between her and I.
I just will not accept a sexless marriage and use my intelligence to figure
a way out of that hell. I don't accept sexless marriages are no wins. There is a method
that works. My method! Some existing advice with a lot of new bold twists... surgical.
I also don't accept it takes forever... the plan can be done in a finite window.

So far I'm about 2yr 10mo in and at the end. I made mistakes BIG ONES.
I think most guys could fit it into 2 years.

Why? Because all the others stank! Something new needed to be created.
My goal is to eliminate as many sexless marriages as I can.

Some of the best inventions come from those who try new things.

Most of the interaction between my wife and I is through letters or e-mail.
Occasional verbal discussions at the exact right moment creating flashbulb memories.

Its building a framework and then building it up and connecting the dots at every turn.
Its constant pressure keeping the tension heading in the right direction. Its fixing all flaws 
in your marriage while you can. Its making it uncomfortable so that once you fix it she will never want
to go back to that fix it period thereby ensuring success. Its simply designing a new improved marriage!

Kids are protected from the brunt of it.
Kids love me. They love their mom but fell she's crazy..their own observation.
Don't knock my methods because they will fix my marriage unlike most other sexless marriages that either fail or go on forever with both spouses losing.
You watch my method will be portable to other marriages...and have a high success rate.

It will be a gift to sexless guys in sexless marriages. My payback to TAM.

Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
I told you all I would solve my sexless marriage..almost there I WILL.

YOU have to understand I spent weeks researching everything there is on sexless marriages AND women's needs... I saw a pattern of success strategies pulled form many sources. I used my psychology background to reinforce behaviors. It may not be fair...but it is very effective.

Got to be bold.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

All this talk t2 and you STILL aren't having sex. When will you realize it's not going to happen? You just keep pushing the timeline back further. Where is the line? Why isn't it tonight?


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> All this talk t2 and you STILL aren't having sex. When will you realize it's not going to happen? You just keep pushing the timeline back further. Where is the line? Why isn't it tonight?


Sex will happen when she is ready for it to happen and not a minute sooner... That is why the time frame seems to be pushed back. I really can't say when.... but it is a certainty at some point sooner rather than later. Up to her to accept one night.
Already turned down an offer of disinterested sex. I don't do that anymore.

I don't want lame disinterested sex...no thanks. I made that perfectly clear.
She knows what I need.

Once it happens we will be rolling along in a new better sex life... worth the wait.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Sex will happen when she is ready for it to happen and not a minute sooner... That is why the time frame seems to be pushed back. I really can't say when.... but it is a certainty at some point sooner rather than later. Up to her to accept one night.
> Already turned down an offer of disinterested sex. I don't do that anymore.
> 
> I don't want lame disinterested sex...no thanks. *I made that perfectly clear.*She knows what I need.
> ...


The only thing you have made perfectly clear is that you are dilusional. I told you I would be posting in your threads to try and keep hurting, lost souls from listening to your unsuccessful rantings. Now I think I need to stalk all your posting, lest you hi jack other peoples threads.

Oh. and thanks for the laugh. I enjoyed your statement about your approach being bold. :rofl:


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Sex will happen when she is ready for it to happen and not a minute sooner... That is why the time frame seems to be pushed back. I really can't say when.... but it is a certainty at some point sooner rather than later. Up to her to accept one night.
> Already turned down an offer of disinterested sex. I don't do that anymore.
> 
> I don't want lame disinterested sex...no thanks. I made that perfectly clear.
> ...


IT'S. NOT. WORKING.

She's just not that into you

Stick a fork in her. She's DONE


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Toffer said:


> IT'S. NOT. WORKING.
> 
> She's just not that into you
> 
> Stick a fork in her. She's DONE



If she were done she'd be gone.

You guys give up too early. Only been 2yr 10mo from ILYNILWY.. making good time plan to have this all wrapped up by year 3.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Trying2figureitout said:


> If she were done she'd be gone.
> 
> You guys give up too early. Only been 2yr 10mo from ILYNILWY.. making good time plan to have this all wrapped up by year 3.


You're assuming her choices are to love you, or leave you. She has a third option. That is to let you be her meal ticket and babysitter while she saves herself for other men. So far, you're 2 years and 10 months down the meal ticket road. I hope you can get off it.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> You're assuming her choices are to love you, or leave you. She has a third option. That is to let you be her meal ticket and babysitter while she saves herself for other men. So far, you're 2 years and 10 months down the meal ticket road. I hope you can get off it.



I know that's why now she has choice A or B... with checkpoints set up until we get to the end. Again I have this under control even though you all think I'm nuts sometimes. I put the odds way in my favor.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T2 is already posting that this will be resolved within 14 months. 
Translation:
2 year deadline bluff was called
3 year deadline bluff was called
A new 4 year deadline has been created

When the youngest child goes off to school, she almost certainly walks so as to be able to pursue her sexual relationships openly.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> T2 is already posting that this will be resolved within 14 months.
> Translation:
> 2 year deadline bluff was called
> 3 year deadline bluff was called
> ...


Mem do two minutes of RESEARCH into sexless marriages. The rare ones that resolve do so usually in 3-4 years or when the wife gets a "lightbulb" moment 20 years later. I always knew this would take years to DO IT RIGHT. I didn't want to just fix SEX , I wanted to fix everything! I created those "light bulb" mini-moments throughout.

I'm <3 years from ILYNILWY and TURNED OFF EMOTIONS my progress has been steady and is on track timewise. Regular Sex is the last domino to fall. All other aspects of our marriage have improved dramatically. I'm happy as is she. She is falling back in-love.

I will be back with the ENTIRE PLAN for you all to review after proven sexual results. That way you can't cast stones.

I felt we would resolve sooner...I was wrong. Wife held on to PAS ILYNILWY RESENTMENT too long. That's resolved so now we can move forward on the same path...checkpoint in January. I have a plan.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Plan sounds like:
- give her more time to forgive and
- try to earn her respect 

Plan should be:
- demand her respect including total transparency as there is another man in your marriage at the moment - at minimum ea texting 
- completely rewire your speech pattern

For example - I am sure your wife is stunned by your statements to her about how you are willing to be celibate in order to have a great sex life going forward. 

You don't understand the alpha stuff at all. More than anything it is the ability not to show fear. Whether her texting with another man or a deadline for having sex, fear has prevented any boundary enforcement. When anxious you talk a lot and sadly your talk is boastful which comes across as insecure/fearful


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Plan sounds like:
> - give her more time to forgive and
> - try to earn her respect
> 
> ...


Oh I understand it all... I understand most of whats out there in the mainstream is ineffective.. I developed effective way of correcting the entire marriage and staying a "nice guy". Women prefer strong-beta. Alpha when needed. Easier to be yourself than some alpha dog.... where you have to play some teasing game and wrestle with her or keep the remote to get sex that's tiring and frankly pathetic.... looking at you Mem. You created that...smoke and mirrors for life..congrats. Unsustainable.

There's a better way...my way. Mind re-engineering over time.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Trying2figureitout said:


> I developed effective way of correcting the entire marriage and staying a "nice guy".


You believe in your plan. So far, you have tested it on one person (your wife). And you are still celibate. And you have spent three years. But you are pretty confident that it won't take four years. Although you were confident a year ago that it wouldn't take three years.

That's not exactly a great sales pitch.



Trying2figureitout said:


> Easier to be yourself than some alpha dog.... where you have to play some teasing game and wrestle with her or keep the remote to get sex that's tiring and frankly pathetic.... looking at you Mem. You created that...smoke and mirrors for life..congrats. Unsustainable.


It genuinely confuses me when men shirk any effort to be more attractive. Do our wives refuse to wear makeup because they don't really have lips that are that red? No. They understand that makeup enhances their sex appeal. So they wear it. Is wearing makeup unsustainable? No. You can put it on every day.

Are men capable of putting forth a modicum of effort in order to attract women? I think most of us are. I think those who refuse to are either amazingly lazy or simply too afraid. Better to be yourself, remain celibate, and tell yourself that one of these years, your wife will come around. You're actually winning!


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

I want to post one of those signs you see in the park 

"Please don't feed Trying2Figure it out, it only encourages him"


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T2,
This is just a type of foreplay for us. I like it and it isn't difficult to do. 

I guess some of your posts are like the scene in 'lost in translation' 

Your wife is speaking plain English telling you that she doesn’t remember the emotional connection conversation and that the two of you are fine now. The 'we are fine now', means: Your needs being totally own off are not even worthy of acknowledgement. 

Your plan requires intense focus and never ending effort. Hers consists of saying vague things and doing nothing. 

Not exactly nothing. I give her props for being fairly clever. 

During your last spike where you loudly proclaimed victory and when pressed if you had actually had sex, you said you had lost it and that got her attention and was working. 

I don't have to be in your house to know what happened. 
You screamed: She said fine, we can do it this weekend 
But before it actually happened she said:
I am not ready and dont want to. If you need it that badly I will lie there and let you, but this isn't the beginning of that new sex life you are dreaming of. 

And so you backed off.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Mem...

I have not been celibate in over a year and yes I myself have turned down sex from my wife reason being she wasn't ready to give me sex for the reason and offered in some frustration to appease me... no thanks I'll wait. NO PITY SEX... NO DISINTERESTED SEX.

See you and I see things differently I don't want sex from my wife until she is ready to give me sex for love or building towards love again...that's its purpose and I'll wait for her to connect fully so she'll enjoy it. She is trying her best to re-connect now that resentment has been shelved it will happen in time.

We will soon... I'm a trail blazer with THE PLAN so time schedules are fluid.... all I know is I WILL be successful. No games... just organic changes in our marriage...lasting change in our marriage. Win/WIN no gimmicks to have sex.

See I was willing to sacrifice for the greater good in our marriage and allow my wife to fall deeply in love with me again. She will and already has, sex is the last domino. Return to sex creates our new marriage, she knows it. Bliss ahead. The end of the PLAN its essential to have a long sexless spell.... longer the better the result.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Trying2figureitout said:


> See you and I see things differently I don't want sex from my wife until she is ready to give me sex for love or building towards love again...


At the risk of speaking for MEM, I don't think you see that differently at all. I think MEM also wants loving sex from his wife. The difference is that, if MEM's wife were unable to give him loving sex, and unable to show progress and effort toward a satisfying sex life, he wouldn't accept it. I think that's where you differ. MEM would require progress. You're satisfied with you wife spending years keeping you in limbo.



Trying2figureitout said:


> See I was willing to sacrifice for the greater good in our marriage and allow my wife to fall deeply in love with me again. She will and already has, sex is the last domino.


Women have sex with men they are deeply in love with. Women make excuses not to have sex with a meal ticket they have checked out on.



Trying2figureitout said:


> The end of the PLAN its essential to have a long sexless spell.... longer the better the result.


I've been skeptical of your PLAN. But this cinches it. I want no part of a plan to improve sex lives that involves worsening sex lives. Your plan is nothing more than magical thinking and rationalization. If your wife spends three years refusing to have sex with you, it must mean she's passionately in love with you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

PHT,
Yes to all this. 

And also that I want no part of pity sex - definition below. Every once in a while I get the sense that is what is being offered and I smile and decline. 

My definition of pity sex is: (1) Your partner clearly wishes they were not doing it. (2) They appear to be driven solely by feeling sorry for you and are trying to avoid causing you distress. 
______________
Different than doing it to bond and because you clearly enjoy pleasing your partner. 





PHTlump said:


> At the risk of speaking for MEM, I don't think you see that differently at all. I think MEM also wants loving sex from his wife. The difference is that, if MEM's wife were unable to give him loving sex, and unable to show progress and effort toward a satisfying sex life, he wouldn't accept it. I think that's where you differ. MEM would require progress. You're satisfied with you wife spending years keeping you in limbo.
> 
> 
> Women have sex with men they are deeply in love with. Women make excuses not to have sex with a meal ticket they have checked out on.
> ...


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> At the risk of speaking for MEM, I don't think you see that differently at all. I think MEM also wants loving sex from his wife. The difference is that, if MEM's wife were unable to give him loving sex, and unable to show progress and effort toward a satisfying sex life, he wouldn't accept it. I think that's where you differ. MEM would require progress. You're satisfied with you wife spending years keeping you in limbo.
> 
> 
> Women have sex with men they are deeply in love with. Women make excuses not to have sex with a meal ticket they have checked out on.
> ...


There is a time limit in my plan.... I just went in an entirely different path than Mem... mine is one of fixing the entire marriage. Complete and total win/win.

Its redefining the purpose of sex in my wife's mind.
Takes a while to do it right... so we NEVER go back to the old marriage.

It works. No gimmicks. Honest true change.
Also i've had sex in the last three years with her 9 times after ILYNILWY and" I turned off emotions for you" some of that low total both our doings in order to FIX our marriage and redefine what sex is.

Part of the "worsening of sex life" is making a point. So a return to it defines an endpoint.

I could have 'resolved' this long ago and fallen back into our old sex life... not good enough for me as that brought us here. My wife has taken time to process the fact that I now hold her accountable. She didn't like that at all as it was out of character for the old me.
Now she is scrambling to re-build the connection so that she can provide me with the SEX , I will accept. Loving involved SEX with HER frequently.

Her turn to change. I'm ok with or without her. Checkpoint in January.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Trying2figureitout said:


> There is a time limit in my plan.... I just went in an entirely different path than Mem... mine is one of fixing the entire marriage. Complete and total win/win.


Yes, but your time limit is ridiculous. If I am sick, I will go to a doctor within days. I won't wait for my wife to go to medical school, residency, and in seven years, she can help me out.

If it takes you 10 years of relative, or literal, sexlessness in order to build a truly great marriage, then I have no interest. I would much rather settle for a good marriage where I am having sex from day one. Most of my needs are met and most of her needs are met. That, in my book, is a win/win. Meeting her needs while I give her years to contemplate whether she feels like meeting mine is what I call a win/lose.



Trying2figureitout said:


> It works. No gimmicks. Honest true change.


This is yet to be seen. So far, your wife has changed her words toward you, but not her actions. Words are easy to change. Actions are what shows you where her heart is. Right now, her heart is not with you.



Trying2figureitout said:


> Part of the "worsening of sex life" is making a point. So a return to it defines an endpoint.


This is nothing more than rationalization. You think your wife doesn't know how often you have sex? She probably knows better than you do. You think that your wife will suffer by not having sex with you? It is to laugh. You're doing nothing more than acquiescing to your wife's demands and then fooling yourself into believing that you're in charge.



Trying2figureitout said:


> I could have 'resolved' this long ago and fallen back into our old sex life... not good enough for me as that brought us here.


The irony is that you would have been happier in your old sex life. In the old days, you were having sex a little more than monthly. Now, you get far less than that. Given that you will never leave your wife, you should just try to get as much sex as you can from her. I think that is your best option.



Trying2figureitout said:


> My wife has taken time to process the fact that I now hold her accountable. She didn't like that at all as it was out of character for the old me.


You're holding her accountable by giving her exactly what she wants? You're meeting all her needs and allowing her to ignore yours completely? That sounds tortuous for her. I hope she can keep from crying while you're peeling her grapes this afternoon.



Trying2figureitout said:


> Now she is scrambling to re-build the connection so that she can provide me with the SEX , I will accept. Loving involved SEX with HER frequently.


Three years is her scrambling? I would hate to see it when she's taking her time.



Trying2figureitout said:


> Her turn to change. I'm ok with or without her. Checkpoint in January.


Which January?


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

January 2013...

I know you are all skeptical....

I would be too if I were not living it.... 
Here's the deal...

It took both of us YEARS to get to ILYNILWY

It will take both of us YEARS to REDEFINE our marriage to a NEW ONE.
She needs to FEEL 100% ok with the NEW MARRIGE to provide me with what I need of HER and that's to be my willing and loving sexual wife.

It takes YEARS for her to see me in that sexual new light... dropping HER resentment.

This transformation does NOT happen overnight.

Here's the layout...

------17 years old mariage 1.0......3 years of corrections (sexless)..... lifetime of Marriage 2.0

Marriage 2.0 REQUIRES both of us to change. The correction period needs to be hard enough on both spouses bringing you to the brink to work... so you NEVER want to go through it again!

It takes time.

I will GLADY trade in three years for a lifetime of a BETTER MARRIAGE where both spouses WANT to make the other HAPPIEST.

Hmmm what a concept....

You get ONE CHANCE to do it right.
My plan is based on what works in repaired sexless marriages with bold calculated steps.

No halfway done job... I want it ALL. Without smoke and mirrors.

T2


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

T2
Mem...
I have not been celibate in over a year and yes I myself have turned down sex from my wife reason being she wasn't ready to give me sex for the reason and offered in some frustration to appease me... no thanks I'll wait. NO PITY SEX... NO DISINTERESTED SEX.

Shows you have not reegineered a thing, T2 I'm rooting for you to have the best marraigge you can, I really am, but please go back and read all of your posts regarding this, as if you were reading it as someone else and not you, what would you really think about the "Plan" and the current results and time frame? what would your opinion be then?

If you can do that I think you may see where the others are coming from.....


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Trying2figureitout said:


> It will take both of us YEARS to REDEFINE our marriage to a NEW ONE.


If you lost your job, moved into your parents' basement, and gained 200 lbs, then I agree. It will take years to get yourself out of that hole. Establishing a new career and losing half your body weight takes a very long time. However, if all you need is a new attitude and some boundaries, that's not a very long process. That would take months, not years.



Trying2figureitout said:


> It takes YEARS for her to see me in that sexual new light... dropping HER resentment.


That depends on why she resents you. If she resents you because you spent years beating her and raping her, then yes. You've got a long road ahead for her to trust you and be attracted to you. If she resents you because her life hasn't been one of effortless bliss, then that doesn't take years to get over. That either takes some serious reflection on her part, or a willingness on your part to walk away from her. And that's your problem. Your wife doesn't seem like the self-reflective type and you're unwilling to leave her.



Trying2figureitout said:


> Marriage 2.0 REQUIRES both of us to change. The correction period needs to be hard enough on both spouses bringing you to the brink to work... so you NEVER want to go through it again!


So, you're saying that men who have boundaries and are willing to scold their wives when their wives ignore their needs are on the wrong track. You're saying the right track is for those men to take those wives to hell and back so that the wives live in abject terror of returning to the "dark times" of the correction period?

I'll just say that I disagree. Most marriages can be improved by a quick infusion of some alpha behaviors and boundary enforcement. You're also assuming that your wife is viewing the current sexless correction period as something negative. Given that she is taking years to consider whether she wants to have sex with you, it doesn't seem like she's all that motivated by your punishment.



Trying2figureitout said:


> I will GLADY trade in three years for a lifetime of a BETTER MARRIAGE where both spouses WANT to make the other HAPPIEST.
> 
> Hmmm what a concept....


It's not a difficult concept. It's just one that you have trouble grasping. Spend your prime years serving a woman who isn't attracted to you in exchange for the slim chance that she will agree to have sex with you one day, in the far distant future. No thanks.



Trying2figureitout said:


> You get ONE CHANCE to do it right.


No, you don't. This is 21st century America. You get as many chances as you want. You can marry, divorce, and repeat ad infinitum.



Trying2figureitout said:


> My plan is based on what works in repaired sexless marriages with bold calculated steps.


What sexless marriages spent years continuing in the status quo before something magical happened to change the LD partner's heart? I'm just curious.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

strugglinghusband said:


> T2
> Mem...
> I have not been celibate in over a year and yes I myself have turned down sex from my wife reason being she wasn't ready to give me sex for the reason and offered in some frustration to appease me... no thanks I'll wait. NO PITY SEX... NO DISINTERESTED SEX.
> 
> ...


Appreciate your perspective...

I totally agree. My plan is CRAZY from the outside and I thought it would work sooner I was wrong and miscalculated how deep resentment took hold....seems like snake oil, trust me none of you know all of the plan. I live it and I see the changes in my wife. I am re-seducing her.

The old me no longer exists, the old her no longer exists either... it is evident in all of our interactions together. WE are both better and WAY more connected.

My wife FINALLY dropped all past and current resentment she knows she needs to change now as there is a January checkpoint. Just a matter of time now. Even without sex our lives are so much more connected/balanced its crazy. Sex will come in loads soon enough. No doubt in my mind...its inevitable.
Sex is not the issue...ITS EVERYTHING ELSE!

Soon we can discuss a completely workable plan...once the results are clear.
There is hope for a sexless marriage. Don't ever give up there is always tomorrow.
Stop the bleeding.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Trying2figureitout said:


> I totally agree. My plan is CRAZY from the outside. I live it and I see the changes in my wife. I am re-seducing her.


Your plan may just be crazy period. But, you're in the middle of it, so you can't see the forest for the trees. You interpret the absence of cruelty from your wife as love. It's not.

If my son turned 20, fell in love with a girl and spent the next three years of his life relentlessly pursuing her, while she refused to meet him halfway, I would tell him to run away from her. She doesn't love him. She probably never will. I certainly wouldn't agree with him that it takes years to properly seduce a woman.

My heart would break for him that he is wasting his life chasing a fantasy. Just as it breaks for you T2. You're fooling yourself into believing that your wife doesn't have sex with you because of something you're doing. That if you can just jump through a few more hoops, a passionate sex life will materialize. But that's not the way passionate sex lives happen.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Your plan may just be crazy period. But, you're in the middle of it, so you can't see the forest for the trees. You interpret the absence of cruelty from your wife as love. It's not.
> 
> If my son turned 20, fell in love with a girl and spent the next three years of his life relentlessly pursuing her, while she refused to meet him halfway, I would tell him to run away from her. She doesn't love him. She probably never will. I certainly wouldn't agree with him that it takes years to properly seduce a woman.
> 
> My heart would break for him that he is wasting his life chasing a fantasy. Just as it breaks for you T2. You're fooling yourself into believing that your wife doesn't have sex with you because of something you're doing. That if you can just jump through a few more hoops, a passionate sex life will materialize. But that's not the way passionate sex lives happen.


I agree look I've read everything on women's needs and passionate sex life...I get it.

There are no hoops just constant way of holding yourself to allow her to see the forest for the trees... either marriage and all it entails to the man she married or NOT.

I'm NOT afraid of my wife. Shes already chosen A and just a week or so ago let go of her resentments.
I'm patient.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> If she were done she'd be gone.


Not true. Her still being around only means that she is getting something of value. She might not want to be on her own and is sticking it out. She might think she has a good thing because almost all other men would refuse to put up with her.

Example: my ex swore up and down that my sexual needs were unfair and driving us apart. She threatened to leave on several occasions but never followed through. But when I lost my job she was out of there quick, with barely a peep.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> I know that's why now she has choice A or B... with checkpoints set up until we get to the end. Again I have this under control even though you all think I'm nuts sometimes. I put the odds way in my favor.


34 months into your plan (following who knows how long a period of bad or no sex) and you think you are in the driver's seat? Really? You seem to think your plan is foolproof. In reality there is no such thing as a guarantee- I think we would all agree to that. But your plan has a huge flaw that you either cannot or refuse to acknowledge. Specifically, you are basing success on something over which to have no control- you're wife's sexual response to you.

No way in hell do you control that and make her want you. You can improve yourself, and you may succeed (for a while at least) into having disinterested or pity sex with you. But as far as her desire to please you sexually goes, the best you can do is perhaps influence it with your conduct (for better or for worse).

Let's put it this way: you yourself admitted that the plan would work if there was love. What has she done to show her love for you? I don't mean being a good friend or companion. I'm talking about that feeling deep down that she wants to have that eroticism with you. Since your plan started has she once just wanted you? Or, has she at least agreed to cheerfully meet your need out of respect for all you do for her?

That being said, your plan has another serious flaw. You do not have reasonable criteria for evaluating success or failure. You have deluded yourself into thinking that as long as she does not leave she is still into you, and thus you are still in the game, and thus you have not failed. You refuse to see the faulty logic of your thought process.

You don't get that us naysayers have experienced these pitfalls ourselves. You can't imagine being told "I never wanted you like that but did not want to be alone" or "I don't want to do that with anyone". And because you cannot empathize, you pretend those possibilities do not exist.

We would respect you more if you said honestly "yes, there is a chance this fails, but I need to know I gave it all I had", or if you had some bias against divorce (there are guys who would rather live unhappily than divorce and admit it). But to insist you know better and push this on others as Gospel truth is laughable. And the consequent implication that the rest of us are buffoons who are too stupid to figure it out for ourselves is insulting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

KanDo said:


> I want to post one of those signs you see in the park
> 
> "Please don't feed Trying2Figure it out, it only encourages him"


I am getting the feeling no one is "listening".......


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

DTO said:


> 34 months into your plan (following who knows how long a period of bad or no sex) and you think you are in the driver's seat? Really? You seem to think your plan is foolproof. In reality there is no such thing as a guarantee- I think we would all agree to that. But your plan has a huge flaw that you either cannot or refuse to acknowledge. Specifically, you are basing success on something over which to have no control- you're wife's sexual response to you.
> 
> No way in hell do you control that and make her want you. You can improve yourself, and you may succeed (for a while at least) into having disinterested or pity sex with you. But as far as her desire to please you sexually goes, the best you can do is perhaps influence it with your conduct (for better or for worse).
> 
> ...


Then be insulted...I don't care.

The Plan works. Most of what was out their stank.

Sexless marriages don't redefine into sexual marriages hardly ever. So I came up with something different. I like the results. I'm happy in a sexless marriage are you?

And for your point.

"Yes, there is a chance this fails, but I need to know I gave it all I had until YEAR 4"


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

Thanks to everyone for posting responses to my need for advice.

This thread has somehow become pretty far off topic. I am not a regular on this site, but will say this:

1. Some of the people posting on this site are spending an inordinate amount of time doing so. One should spend the most time on that which is most important to them, so if it truly is your marriage that is a high priority, maybe you should consider re-directing all that time spent posting here toward your significant other & family.

2. In life, I've only had success by taking advice from those who have actually had success doing whatever it is I am attempting to do. If one hasn't actually succeeded, I don't take their advice with much clout.

3. The best advice on this site was about proper communication. Attempting to manipulate someone into a behavior seems pretty far fetched, we are people, not dogs. To fix an issue in a marriage, both parties need to be on board with accepting what the issues are and working together to fix them.

Please take the off topic posts to another thread.

Best of luck...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Did I say 5 days - well ok it was 5 days. But only because the fog of combat was thick for the first 4 of them and I had no clue what was happening. 
T2,
For what it is worth, here you have it. 

My wife arrived home on Friday deep in her own fog. I should have known at the time but I didn't. BTW: Deejo told me what was happening at the time but I didn't listen. 

She arrived home having decided that the OM was the 'better man'. That decision drove her choice to 'end our sexual relationship' effective immediately. Apparently that was her strategy to get me to be the one to initiate a divorce so she and OM could sail off into the sunset together. 

I had no idea this was the driver, and only knew what I saw 'in the moment' and responded to those symptoms individually:
Day 1: 
- basic respect boundary violations which I responded to in a 'textbook' low affect manner
Day 2: 
- escalation of boundary violations, with more of the same
Day 3:
- I am now in a lite 180 and she is continuing to escalate so I shoot her an email with a bullet list of 5 'acts of aggression' that she had made without provocation. Ended with: let's not talk until you are able to do so without being blatantly disrespectful. (emails are a rare thing for us - I only resort to them when pushed beyond reason) 

That night - she implies she is tired of being married. I 'barely', control my voice and tell her I want her to be happy and that she should do whatever is best for her. This caused her intense anger (apparently her marital fatigue is supposed to be a cue for me to grovel). 

Day 4: (night of) I get a version of love you but not in love with you but don't correctly recognize it. I do correctly perceive it as a demand for celibacy. I get angry but don't say much. 

Day 5: morning: I am angry, combative and escalating. I suggest a fully open marriage of sorts. This was bad behavior on my part. 

During the day I regain stability, choose a plan and write my script. Yes it was a written list of 5 or so bullet points which I used later. 

That night we walk the dogs, when we are 2 miles (almost an hour) away I run my script and she spends about a half hour attempting to over power me by way of:
1. Anger and sheer aggression and when that fails
2. Being 'too calm' meant I was treating our marriage like a 'business', transaction. And when that failed
3. She wanted 'months', (of celibacy) before I did anything 

To which I replied - every time I do something nice or something mean you will think it is about sex. Not going to live like that. 

Finally we moved to - silence. 

Before we get home she 100 percent re commits to the marriage. We get home and she tears my clothes off. And the next night and every night for weeks. 

So depending on how you want to count, 5 days from the day her plan started, or one day from when I started planning or one hour from execution of plan to sexual saturation. 

To me, the plan represented a bright line boundary regarding forced celibacy. 

T2, 
One thing you never ever do is ask your wife what HER plan is. She clearly has a plan. 

I bet you do most of the talking when you are attempting to address this with her.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

re16 said:


> 2. In life, I've only had success by taking advice from those who have actually had success doing whatever it is I am attempting to do. If one hasn't actually succeeded, I don't take their advice with much clout.
> 
> 3. The best advice on this site was about proper communication. Attempting to manipulate someone into a behavior seems pretty far fetched, we are people, not dogs. To fix an issue in a marriage, both parties need to be on board with accepting what the issues are and working together to fix them.


Fair enough.

My ex tried every manipulation to make me believe that I was not meeting her security needs, familial needs, romance needs, or just a flat-out pervert (for expressing a preference for women who like oral sex and groom themselves).

Eventually I did the 180; I lived my life, enjoyed my daughter, and still did for the family while showing my ex I did not need sh!t from her. After a long period of refusal, she managed to be sexual and even pushed the boundaries of what she would do.

That lasted just a few months. The final breakdown of our sex life was due to her unwillingness to deal with her CSA issues, which severely stunted her development as a sexual being - not the 180.

Put another way, the 180 was a wake up call that the status quo was over and she had to at least try to reciprocate. Telling her I was unhappy had no impact - my words were completely disregarded. If I had not taken that stand, she would never have made the limited effort that she eventually did.

Lastly, the 180 is not manipulation. It is exactly the opposite - I will not pressure you and you are free to do what you wish. I readily agree that agreements based solely on punishment and reward probably don't work over the long term; you just get a situation where someone tries to get the most for the least.

The 180 is simply to drive your spouse to a decision point. You are trying to get him or her to see that there is a serious issue and the status quo is over. They are free to work on the issues or fail to do so with appropriate consequences.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> The Plan works. Most of what was out their stank.


How can you say it works? You originally touted your plan as a way to restore sex to a marriage, right? You have not restored sex to your marriage, so you cannot say that it will work.



Trying2figureitout said:


> Sexless marriages don't redefine into sexual marriages hardly ever. So I came up with something different. I like the results. I'm happy in a sexless marriage are you?


Okay, now there's a shift. You are no longer defining this as a sure-fire plan to get sex. It seems that the plan now is to learn to be happy where you are at and work towards sex (which may or may not happen).

That is a completely legitimate course of action depending on your priorities. If your priority is simply to preserve the marriage, then go for it. I was not happy in a sexless marriage because I simply value that part of life too much to simply forgo it - and that's a legitimate choice as well.

My point (again) is simply that you should not misrepresent your Plan to be something that it's not. As a marriage preservation tool it is fine (if your drive is low enough to where you won't miss sex), especially since staying engaged is the key to not being resentful. We have issues because you are pushing this as a resolution to sexlessness rather than suggesting that people learn to be happy without sex.


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## Michael A. Brown (Oct 16, 2012)

Try to talk your wife about this matter. If she is really having difficulty with her sex drive, you can ask some help from a doctor.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

re16 said:


> 3. The best advice on this site was about proper communication. Attempting to manipulate someone into a behavior seems pretty far fetched, we are people, not dogs. To fix an issue in a marriage, both parties need to be on board with accepting what the issues are and working together to fix them.


One item to note on communication vs. manipulation. Aligning your actions to be consistent with your words is not manipulation. Rather, it providing your wife with a consistent message that is less likely to be misunderstood.

So for example, let's say you discuss the issue with your wife. You both agree to do some work on it. She starts off well, but tails off by the next week. You talk with her again, she agrees, but then tails off again. At some point, I think we can all agree that she is not getting the message of the importance.

Now part of that can come from your wife hearing the words that you are unhappy, but seeing in your actions toward her that things are really fine. If you are doing all the same nice things for her (getting her flowers, going out of your way to run an errand for her, taking time to be with her), she may get the messege that things are actually just fine.

On the other hand, if you tell her things are not fine, but then follow that up with actions (such as stopping the above behaviors), she gets a clearer messege that things really are not fine. Recognize that in some ways, some women do this with sex (intentional or not). When things are not fine, they stop being interested in sex. They communicate this through their actions.

So while manipulating is bad, consistent communication, through both words and actions, is a good thing.

Good luck.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

re16 said:


> 2. In life, I've only had success by taking advice from those who have actually had success doing whatever it is I am attempting to do. If one hasn't actually succeeded, I don't take their advice with much clout.


There are plenty of us here that have succeeded in turning a bad marriage around. And that includes sex. I'm one among many.



re16 said:


> 3. The best advice on this site was about proper communication. Attempting to manipulate someone into a behavior seems pretty far fetched, we are people, not dogs. To fix an issue in a marriage, both parties need to be on board with accepting what the issues are and working together to fix them.


If, by communication, you mean that you need to learn exactly why your wife is withholding sex from you, then you may be correct. Assuming she is both aware of her reasons and is willing to tell you.

However, if you mean that you think that your wife's problem is that you haven't sufficiently communicated to her that you enjoy having sex with her, I disagree. I think the entire reason that she avoids all physical contact with you is that she knows exactly how much you enjoy sex with her.

Also, you need to understand that there is a difference between manipulation and influence. When your wife wears makeup, is she manipulating you to think she's attractive? Or is she simply appealing to your instinctual preferences for red lips and flawless skin to help influence your level of attraction? I think it's influence. That doesn't mean you're some kind of mindless automaton.

Imagine you eat a large meal. You're full. But the waiter brings out a dessert cart with two options on it. One is a spear of broccoli. The other is a slice of cake. You'll feel no temptation at all for the broccoli. The cake, however, appeals to your instinctual preference for sweet, high calorie food. Does that mean you have no choice in the matter? If you choose to have the cake, has your free will been overthrown? I don't think so.

You can learn about what women like and become the piece of cake to your wife. Why not appeal to the things she likes? Because some of them are instinctual?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Michael A. Brown said:


> Try to talk your wife about this matter. If she is really having difficulty with her sex drive, you can ask some help from a doctor.


That's always a good first step. However, given that she was sending lustful emails to another man, it's unlikely that her hormones have just quashed her libido completely. It's more likely that she has lost her attraction to her husband, specifically.


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## justbidingtime (Sep 25, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Did I say 5 days - well ok it was 5 days. But only because the fog of combat was thick for the first 4 of them and I had no clue what was happening.
> T2,
> For what it is worth, here you have it.
> 
> ...


Whoa, whoa whoa, stop the clock!!!!!! The great guru mem11363's wife was in an EA and ready to leave once? The one who manipulates the situations, explains his plans and thoughts in such detail and always measures his marriage by how his wife responds sexually to him, was on the verge of divorce over an OM.

Mem11363, where are these posts/threads & details? I am shocked that you with all your bluster and well thought out execution of your plans and alpha tendencies allowed this to happen.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

justbidingtime said:


> Whoa, whoa whoa, stop the clock!!!!!! The great guru mem11363's wife was in an EA and ready to leave once? The one who manipulates the situations, explains his plans and thoughts in such detail and always measures his marriage by how his wife responds sexually to him, was on the verge of divorce over an OM.
> 
> Mem11363, where are these posts/threads & details? I am shocked that you with all your bluster and well thought out execution of your plans and alpha tendencies allowed this to happen.


I agree! I'm absolutely shocked that MEM didn't emerge from the womb wearing a smoking jacket with a complete and accurate understanding of what women like, and what they respond to. I trust no one who gradually learned something by trial and error. That's why I distrust Western medicine so much. Four years to "learn" how to treat sick people in medical school? No thanks. I'm completely offended that some of these so-called doctors think that my body will react to the flu similarly to some other man's body. I'm a snowflake, damnit!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I love women. They are fun. My wife included - nay - my wife first and foremost. 

As for the trial and error (mostly error), I wish there was a better way.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

For now I am going to summarize - at some later point I may be more specific. 

From the very start my W was consistent on a short list of themes that I will refer to as "one and done"
- Hit me 
- Cheat on me

That was it. But she was repetitive at just the right frequency. Not tiresome or nagging. Just completely clear.

Mix together:
- Cheat on me once and we are done
- She goes to church every week and in between walks the walk
- MANY friends and neighbors hit on her - twice she felt some interest and both times she told me. And I always reacted with the same amused reaction of "I trust you". I never once said to her "one and done". 

So I had put her on a moral pedestal. 

When this "situation" came up, I felt an inappropriate level of security. She specifically told me one year in that there was a problem. I just said "I trust you". 

And a year later we had some banter on this topic. 
(W) So it would be kind of cool to have two husbands, one who was good at everything except the handy man stuff (that was me) and the second who was really good at that (the OM). 
(H) (speaking softly) - I just wouldn't be fair to his children (from his first marriage). 
(W) What wouldn't be fair?
(H) Him disappearing one day. And no one ever finding his body.

But 6 months later something came up about fidelity. Doesn't matter how. And I breached. I failed to exert self control and show restraint. And so I said something that was true, which was also reckless and insane. 
(H) I wouldn't divorce you over a single incident of infidelity. I love you too much to do that. 

Suffice to say - the way this played out at the very end, that I believe she never broke the plane of physicality. Still - it was a close thing a few times. I know because she told me. 

But she told me in year one and I did nothing. 

So I fvcked up several times, and was just very lucky. 








PHTlump said:


> I agree! I'm absolutely shocked that MEM didn't emerge from the womb wearing a smoking jacket with a complete and accurate understanding of what women like, and what they respond to. I trust no one who gradually learned something by trial and error. That's why I distrust Western medicine so much. Four years to "learn" how to treat sick people in medical school? No thanks. I'm completely offended that some of these so-called doctors think that my body will react to the flu similarly to some other man's body. I'm a snowflake, damnit!


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## justbidingtime (Sep 25, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> For now I am going to summarize - at some later point I may be more specific.
> 
> From the very start my W was consistent on a short list of themes that I will refer to as "one and done"
> - Hit me
> ...


How about speaking english for once and just stating clearly just the facts???? Is that too much to ask?????


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

re16 said:


> Thanks to everyone for posting responses to my need for advice.
> 
> This thread has somehow become pretty far off topic. I am not a regular on this site, but will say this:
> 
> ...


re16 - 

1 - some people are on here as you put it an inordinate amount of time to get ideas/advice and give others insight and so on. I would submit that by spending time on your floundering marriage without any fresh ideas or direction puts them exactly where you are in your original post. Frustrated and despondent from doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. 

2- Success on here comes from asking, listening and responding.The clues for success are all over these threads. If you want a magic wand you've come to the wrong place. No one can make your wife magically want you. Not even you so far. 

3 - Apparently communication is not as good advice for you as you think it is. It has not worked for you so far as your wife has backed out of several "deals" you've made with her. She is losing respect for you as she does not like your deals and has proven she has no intention of following through with them as there has been no consequence. Was a consequence part of the deal? She does not accept "your" issue as her's and therefore feels no need to "work" on it. 

Lastly this back and fourth banter on here is pretty usual, it's how we all work through this stuff. I have found gems of advice in what I thought was otherwise "off" topic. I don't believe anyone is going to take their off topics off here because you can offer no consequence other than to contact a moderator if you do not like what is being said. 

No doubt about it eh!


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

justbidingtime said:


> How about speaking english for once and just stating clearly just the facts???? Is that too much to ask?????


I posted MEM's text into a readability-score calculator. The Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level of his post was 4.6. So, you could ask a fifth grader to explain it to you. 

Since I passed the fifth grade, with flying colors, it was perfectly understandable to me.


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## justbidingtime (Sep 25, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> I posted MEM's text into a readability-score calculator. The Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level of his post was 4.6. So, you could ask a fifth grader to explain it to you.
> 
> Since I passed the fifth grade, with flying colors, it was perfectly understandable to me.


Yes I passed too... Just once I`d like Mem11363 to simply state the facts and his feelings.

His wife has crossed the line (at least if you read the CWI section and quite brazenly) a few times, and when the EA started, a ****y mem11363 ignored it as an alpha male and did not respond. When she came close to crossing into the physical she even tested the waters and he still was obtuse and quite arrogant and full of himself.

Of course mem11363 was just too good a guy and did nothing while this was going on because he loved and trusted his wife too much and until that magical 5 days (or 1 or the 1 hour walk) he almost lost her......

It would be nice just once if he spoke as two people talking over a beer (or by a watercooler) would.....


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

justbidingtime said:


> Yes I passed too... Just once I`d like Mem11363 to simply state the facts and his feelings.


I thought he did that rather well.



justbidingtime said:


> His wife has crossed the line (at least if you read the CWI section and quite brazenly) a few times, and when the EA started, a ****y mem11363 ignored it as an alpha male and did not respond. When she came close to crossing into the physical she even tested the waters and he still was obtuse and quite arrogant and full of himself.


That's one interpretation. But it's not mine. In a long-term relationship, mate guarding is an alpha behavior. It can be seen as a display of low value when one spouse doesn't attempt to intervene and head off potential infidelity. And MEM stated explicitly that it wasn't arrogance that prevented him from believing his wife wouldn't cheat on him. It was his belief that his wife was so morally perfect that she would never cross the line.



justbidingtime said:


> Of course mem11363 was just too good a guy and did nothing while this was going on because he loved and trusted his wife too much and until that magical 5 days (or 1 or the 1 hour walk) he almost lost her......
> 
> It would be nice just once if he spoke as two people talking over a beer (or by a watercooler) would.....


He wasn't a good guy. He was a nice guy. He didn't have the edge. He told his wife explicitly that he would not divorce her for infidelity. When she informed him, twice, of her temptations, he did nothing. In essence, he gave her license. So, she took him at his word and dabbled. It wasn't until he woke up and manned up, telling his wife that he would not tolerate infidelity, that she backed off from the OM and recommitted to MEM.

Plain as day.


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## justbidingtime (Sep 25, 2012)

Not interested in breaking down mem1363 in a play by play. I just stated that it would be nice if he discussed it (or posted) for once as if just talking to someone.

I highly doubt in business that this is how he writes reports or talks to colleagues and clients. If he did, I suspect he works in the mailroom somewhere with illusions of grandeur.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

justbidingtime said:


> Not interested in breaking down mem1363 in a play by play. I just stated that it would be nice if he discussed it (or posted) for once as if just talking to someone.


Sorry. You were objecting to things that were explicitly contrary to MEM's post. I was just pointing that out.

As for disliking his style, I can't really help you there. I find nothing wrong with it. And I write reports frequently.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

This is a threadjack guys.

**

re16

Don't do things for her anymore. It gets you nothing. You feel it is 'not being nice'. Well, guess what? She isn't buying 'nice'. You are OFFERING her the money...and she's rejecting it as East Buttfvckistan Guilders. It isn't worth anything to her. 

Why? I don't know. She is contemptuous of you and distant from you.

So here is what you do. I'm sure SOMEONE has told you to buy and read the Married Man's Sex Life Primer. Do it. It will clear up some of your delusions about women.

Someone probably also suggeted "No More Mr. Nice Guy." (I am less thrilled with that one) 

But the definition of insanity is trying the SAME DAMNED THING and expecting different results.

So here is what you do.

You move to the guest room or the couch. Just do it. What exactly do you have to lose except the frustration of lying next to this hot woman who won't let you touch her? Plus it's easier to jack off if you have your own room. Just saying.

Next, you hire a nice young personal assistant in her 20's who is looking to learn a LOT from an older gentleman. Go ahead. Don't cheat. But why not? (Better, get her as an intern so you don't have to pay her...)

Get to the gym. (Or so I've heard. Haven't done that myself)

Go out. A lot of good movies are coming out. Go see some ALONE. No, don't even invite her. Invite other people. Don't bother telling her who.

If you pick up a single dish, or vacuum a single rug, I'll ***** slap you. That stuff hasn't gotten you a damn thing! If, as you say, you are a big business mogul, how exactly would you characterize actions that you perform which are unpaid but time consuming and take you away from your kids? I'd call it stupid.

Your wife is becoming a sunk cost and a poor investment. Yes, tell her exactly like that. Then go out for a few hours. Leave your cell phone at home. What is she going to do, send you naked pictures of herself?

Enjoy the OTHER options life has to offer that don't involve your wife's legs.

Emotionally detach from her. She will feel it...and either not care or DESPERATELY care. Think hysterical bonding. But don't hope for it.

And hire a PI.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Simulated beer as requested:
In the two years prior to us hiring the OM, our sex life became weak. That is on me, I changed, she didn't. 

We hired him. The chemistry between them was strong. His wife of 20 years had cheated on him and broke his heart, his spirit and in doing so, she also crushed his ability to run their small business. That was why he moved to our metro area. 

Great guy - I mean that. I like and respect him. And he had moved to our city with his gf and they were living together. And he seemed to love her despite the fact that she treated him badly. 

The Chemistry was strong but I figured:
- she is religious and fears hell
- he is a, decent guy who had 'this', done to him 

So I felt safe. Still, when he touched her in a playful way in my presence a little alarm fired. The second time he did it the alarm got louder. Each time he did this he looked at me. The first time I laughed and smiled - bad move. The second time I realized that this was some primal mating circuitry that had kicked in. 

She wasn't telling him to stop. And we know what that means. And he was looking at me to see if I was going to respond. 

So the third time he did it, which happened the next day I punched him in the arm. And we looked at each other for a moment. I might have said 'no'. She looked at both of us. That night I told her I did not want him 'touching', her. She agreed and said she would reinforce the message if he did it again. 

Don't be nasty about this next part. It was not ok. I know that. If you are mean spirited about it - this will be our last virtual beer. 

She fell in love with him and brought it home to me. It was the passion of our early years combined with 20 years knowledge of my body. It was like a drug except I didn't develop a 'tolerance', and instead of feeling hung over I felt great the next day. And after a few months I realized at some level that in her head she wasn't really doing it to me. Not the cartoon case of her saying his name. I just knew. 

And this is when I told myself the big lie which was, like the best lies, partly true:
- she is doing this to show her commitment to me 
- she is not doing this for both of us - so she isn't having a PA with him 

The second part was true. The first part was completely false. 

And the bill for all this: three times in the following two years she escalated and took things to the edge. I honestly didn't connect the dots on those. Then we sold the business and 6 months later she confessed that the threats to D were caused by the fog. 

The confession was inspired by guilt. I said something that triggered her guilt and she confessed. I asked all the usual questions. She and he stopped communication after we sold the biz. She doesn't still love him. She volunteered that neither of them was willing to make the first move physically and because of that nothing happened physically.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

All true except the end. 

It only ended between them because we sold the business.


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## justbidingtime (Sep 25, 2012)

Last of the threadjack......

Thanks for the honesty and sorry to hear.

Boy that was a lot clearer.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JBT, 
Sure. It took a few months to process. I triggered 4-5 times. The thing is: we tried to sell the biz after year one, economy was terrible. She definitely actively tried to sell it as I participated. 

She was in love with this guy for three years. She had a near daily opportunity to have alone time with him in the office. And yet in three years she managed to limit the damage to what I described. And other than those episodes of temporary insanity she managed to love me enough to be a good wife. 

I would not want to find out how well I would behave in that situation.


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

> So here is what you do.
> 
> You move to the guest room or the couch. Just do it. What exactly do you have to lose except the frustration of lying next to this hot woman who won't let you touch her? Plus it's easier to jack off if you have your own room. Just saying.
> 
> ...


And when she doesn't care.....just move on. You have a better chance of getting laid in a new relationship than dealing with that frozen heart. Right on, Mem. Right on.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

RE, 
If you return to this thread I hope you understand this one last observation. 

Men don't fully grasp the 'respect,' thing in the context of a relationship. What the man does know is that it 'feels bad to him when his wife is disrespectful to him'. 

But since he can have sex with a hot woman who he doesn't respect, he doesn't grasp that letting his wife dis him results in her not desiring him. A woman cannot sustain desire for a man she disrespects. 

Each time your wife blatantly mis-states the truth and you allow it, her respect for you erodes. The subtext is 'I know you won't hold me accountable for aligning my statements and actions. 

She says' I'm tired - and then proceeds to do other stuff' you need to do something. Lots of easy stuff comes to mind:
You smiling - holding out your hand to her - 'let me tuck you in' - and when you get the irritated response - 'I am just trying to be helpful your the only e said you were tired'. 

Or finish her sentence: 
You: tired of what? 
Her: What 
You: you are clearly not sleepy tired, so what is it you are tired of? 
Her: getting angry
You: maybe best for you to say what you mean 

You need to read MMSL else you will end up like T2.

Just for fun - this is what happens when you really listen. 

I asked you a question you didn't like which was how come you are pressuring her for a schedule instead of why she dislikes sex with you. 

And the way you deflected was to change the subject to the other posters on the thread. You can't be deflected if you really pay attention.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Update?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

PHT,
Thank you for this post. I laughed out loud when I read it. 




PHTlump said:


> I posted MEM's text into a readability-score calculator. The Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level of his post was 4.6. So, you could ask a fifth grader to explain it to you.
> 
> Since I passed the fifth grade, with flying colors, it was perfectly understandable to me.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JBT,
As a follow up - whether on this thread or elsewhere I have made one point a few times. 

When my W acts in a reckless manner I feel fear and confusion. It is also true that I am close to certain that expressing fear in those situations is worse than ineffective. It is harmful. 

So I don't do it. I don't express fear. This is a deliberate choice based on a desire to avoid a D. 




justbidingtime said:


> Not interested in breaking down mem1363 in a play by play. I just stated that it would be nice if he discussed it (or posted) for once as if just talking to someone.
> 
> I highly doubt in business that this is how he writes reports or talks to colleagues and clients. If he did, I suspect he works in the mailroom somewhere with illusions of grandeur.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

Hi Mem,

Thanks for keeping the focus back on the original thread (I felt like I had walked into the middle of a two year argument with some of the responses, but figured out how to unsubscribe from the post finally and felt better)


```
RE,
If you return to this thread I hope you understand this one last observation.

Men don't fully grasp the 'respect,' thing in the context of a relationship. What the man does know is that it 'feels bad to him when his wife is disrespectful to him'.

But since he can have sex with a hot woman who he doesn't respect, he doesn't grasp that letting his wife dis him results in her not desiring him. A woman cannot sustain desire for a man she disrespects.

Each time your wife blatantly mis-states the truth and you allow it, her respect for you erodes. The subtext is 'I know you won't hold me accountable for aligning my statements and actions.

She says' I'm tired - and then proceeds to do other stuff' you need to do something. Lots of easy stuff comes to mind:
You smiling - holding out your hand to her - 'let me tuck you in' - and when you get the irritated response - 'I am just trying to be helpful your the only e said you were tired'.

Or finish her sentence:
You: tired of what?
Her: What
You: you are clearly not sleepy tired, so what is it you are tired of?
Her: getting angry
You: maybe best for you to say what you mean

You need to read MMSL else you will end up like T2.

Just for fun - this is what happens when you really listen.

I asked you a question you didn't like which was how come you are pressuring her for a schedule instead of why she dislikes sex with you.

And the way you deflected was to change the subject to the other posters on the thread. You can't be deflected if you really pay attention.
```
I laughed when I saw your mock discussion about how to deal with her false comments because it sounded almost exactly like some of the conversations we've had. Like I said in the original post, I though I tried it all... I've read the books and implemented exactly, but up until a couple of weeks ago had no luck.

I understand what you are saying about respect and agree that it is probably an issue for many, but don't think it is our issue at all. She knows that I am intelligent and aware of any games / misguided statements and that I will call her on bluffs / excuses. This didn't stop her from trying to make them. I guess I should have stated that she gets called on them frequently in the original post to make it clear that this was not at the heart of the problem.

As to your question why I want to have sex with someone who dislikes having sex with me, neigther she or I have ever said that she dislikes it. Although it was not anywhere near frequent enough for me, when it happened, it was great for both of us. She clearly says that she enjoys it, she has not been able to understand why she just is not in the mood often.

Here is the update on whats happened recently.

The things that I did differently after getting all your responses were:


1. Numerous times in the past after a long stint of nothing from her (a month or more), I would just give up. I never had clearly said that if this is the way she wants our relationship to be (her sex pace of about once every two months) that I am ready to just give up, and if that causes our relationship to fall apart, I am ready for that happen because I can't live that way. Once I clearly said, fine - you can have it your way, just don't expect our marriage to work afterwards, she seemed to suddenly take interest in hearing about my frustration. Previously, I would just ignore the issue and her, spend time doing other things (some of the posts also suggested this technique - but I recently learned that it needs to be accompanied by a clear statement that you are acting a certain way do to her lack of interest).

2. I had never been clear enough with her that the lack of sex was as big an issue as it really was. She had made the statement "all husbands complain about not enough sex", she gets her info from a group of wives that she hangs out with, and takes the group consensus as unequivocally correct. She thought my discussions with her about were "normal" and all married couples have these talks and it is ok to just do nothing as all her wife friends were doing the same. She didn't understand the way I (and most men) view the role of sex in a relationship was normal. Getting this across clearly was important. I never flat out said how important sex was to the relationship.


After those two points were clearly made, she took initiative to do some research on her own, and came back to say she really didn't understand what this was doing to me and us previously, she acknowledged that she has a problem with low drive, and feeling really bad that her LD had effected us in this way.

She is proactively getting tested for medical causes of LD and is initiating getting us some counseling to assist in helping with the LD issue.


After we worked through a tough patch at about two years into our relationship (at age 23) we've had ten good years in every department except for sex; during the ten years our sex life slowly diminished, my frustration increased proportionally to the decline in sex, and throwing two kids in the mix pushed the issue into a major problem.

Having her recently acknowledge that there is a problem with her drive was a first and has instantly made things alot better; we've always tackled things as a team, sex was the one issue that we were always of opposite opinions. It took me clearly elevating the issue to get her to realize that it was way bigger than she thought and her getting some third party info (from the web) to realize that she needed to be on board with working together to change things and that I had a reasonable expectation of having needs met.

It has been a few weeks, frequency is the best it has been in many years, we're actively talking about making each other happy and I feel on the road to recovery on this issue for the first time ever.

We've scheduled a minimum once Wed / Sun if we've haven't done it by then, which allows for spontaneity, but also assures a minimum frequency.

All that said, only time will tell if she has truly had a change in perspective. I do know that if she heads back to her old ways, it is not going to go over well at all, but I am hopeful that won't happen.

Pretty amazing to ask for advice from a forum and suddenly be able to achieve something I've been trying for years to do, just getting on the same page about the issue and agreeing to work together to fix it was a major improvement...

Thanks


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

re16 said:


> I understand what you are saying about respect and agree that it is probably an issue for many, but don't think it is our issue at all. She knows that I am intelligent and aware of any games / misguided statements and that I will call her on bluffs / excuses. This didn't stop her from trying to make them. I guess I should have stated that she gets called on them frequently in the original post to make it clear that this was not at the heart of the problem.


And yet you are not having sex. Calling her on the games does not equate to her having respect for you. The fact that you know what she is doing and call her on it, yet she still plays these games (enough for you to call her on the frequently) may actaully prove her lack of respect for you, as there are no real consequences for her behavior. She behaves poorly, you say don't do that, she does it again. Consider whether this is happening.



> Pretty amazing to ask for advice from a forum and suddenly be able to achieve something I've been trying for years to do, just getting on the same page about the issue and agreeing to work together to fix it was a major improvement...
> 
> Thanks


While it is great that she has agreed to this, now is not the time to take a break to pat yourself on the pat. You need to hold yourself accountable for make the changes on your side and you need to hold her accountable for make the changes on her side. Words without actions are empty.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Re 
That is very good news. 

A couple quick observations:
- sounds like your wife has responsive desire. She does not feel any desire until you 'start'. 
- I hope you remember something forever: when your wife said 'I didn't know it was important', what she meant was: it had no substantial impact on her so she had no reason to prioritize it

I have a friend who did what you did on the disrespect stuff. He would 'call her' on it most of the time. But all he ever did was say 'that is wrong because'. Their issue was money, not sex. Despite that he took her on nice/expensive dates 2-3 times a week. 

I made a suggestion which he took. She dis'd him and he canceled their next couple of dates. Suddenly she wanted to 'fix', the huge problems they were having. 
Back to your wife. In addition to having responsive desire, she may find sexual aggression / dominance more of a turn on than flowers, gifts, compliments. 

There are lots of sites and books on this. I have a bunch of posts about what works for us. 

As for the next time your wife pushes a boundary with you - maybe she makes a comparison between her behavior and her friends - you are lucky I am giving you so much more sex than my friends give their husbands. 

Smile at her and smack her on the butt firmly - don't say a word. 

If you get serious grief about that tell her
'you ought only mention your selfish, male bashing friends again if you want a full spanking'. And then walk away. And do not apologize - this is a 'theme', of hers that goes like this: all my friends indirectly boast about how they have emasculated their H's by shutting down sex. And I have knowingly contributed to that. And now I understand it was wring and am still bringing it up. 

She has had no real consequences. A response pattern can only be judged as alpha or not based on the results achieved. 

Example: 
Wife does something over the top (OTT). 

H uses sharp voice and gives her a totally logical lecture on why that is not ok. In court he would prevail with this approach. 
Rinse repeat many times. 
She keeps doing the OTT stuff and he keeps up the Clarence Darrow routine to no effect. 
In court and winning we call that alpha. At home getting crushed, we call it beta. 

Different H, gets same OTT behavior. Warns once and then stops talking and begins subtracting things important to her until the issue is resolved. He shows no fear,no aggression and is clearly deprioritizing her because of how she is treating him. Her behavior rapidly changes. That is alpha. 

As for the present time - teach her how to manage sexual communication. It is fine for her to decline sex by asking for a next day rain check. Not ok for her to just say 'no'.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

Well it has been a year since my last update on sexless marriage...

A year ago, my wife and I had been together for 12 years, married for 6, two kids, and our marriage had become sexless (1x in six months, with about 100 rejections).

She was pushing me away with every excuse in the book, claiming that nothing was wrong, she just wasn't into sex, felt like I was just another demand on her, etc. She thought all I cared about was sex, something which was unimportant to her, and basically just dismissed my desire for intimacy as typical guy bs.

I had become unbelievably frustrated, hurt, full of resentment toward her and had finally given up trying to fix the situation, I was ready to get comfortable with the idea that things would just fall apart. I couldn't understand how she could reject sex with me and still love me, when I could never do that to her. I thought that she must not really love me.

TAM advice was to clearly state that sex is important and get her to understand that is not just about sex for me, it was about feeling desired and having an emotional connection. She kind of started to get that about a year ago, but was only able to stick with sex when it was scheduled.

The scheduled sex was short lived before she started to fail again. It turned into more of the old, lets do it tomorrow, and then not saying anything the next day, too tired. ETC.

I flipped out again, set up MC with a sex therapist. This was the best thing because first words out of her mouth was that anyone is entitled to a good sex life with their partner. Of course it was pointed that we both got ourselves into this and it would take both of us to get out, but the focus was clearly on why she had low sex drive. Having a third party say exactly what I was saying suddenly made it valid for her. (There may be further implications to what this means about her respect for me with this - it hurt that hearing it from her husband was tossed out the window and a stranger made an impact immediatly).

After going to MC weekly for an hour for six weeks, we were steady on around 3x per week, she admitted that she had been intentionally avoiding sex, and said she felt awkward and embarrassed to talk about it, didn't know why her drive was so low and thought it mostly due to getting wrapped up in the stress of working, having kids. We read a few books together, talked alot about our relationship and it seemed we were well on the way back to how things once were. We stopped going to MC.

Not too long, old habits came back with her, I continued to call her on this, and it elicited various responses, sometimes, the same old story "i am not into sex and can't change" and sometimes, she was aware that she needed to work on it more. Very confusing flip flopping back and forth.

After a period of slowing down back to sex once in a month with a myriad of excuses. I decided I'd seen enough and that I needed to reimpliment the 180 techniques, I actually was able to let go mentally that if it doesn't work, I am ok with that, just want to end the emotional pain. I just focused on taking care of myself, basically stop letting what she does or doesn't do have any impact on my emotions. Completely stopped initiating, starting going to the gym, and doing quite a bit around the house with and for my kids (kind of a trial run of how things might be without her help). This went on for a few weeks.

I felt so much better focusing on me, I was getting confidence from being at the gym, and didn't have the daily emotional pain of worrying if today would be the day for some intimacy with her. Without saying a word to her on why I was so aloof, all of sudden she starts initiating sex all the time, and good sex. It seemed odd that me detaching and just not caring anymore got the exact results I had wanted, or was it that I had finally implement a true 180, and my previous attempts were not fully committed?

This made me realize how important my role is in maintaining her desire. I was scared to get back in the trap of allowing my emotions to be based on her actions, but at the same time now was now getting everything I wanted. I slipped back into initiating here and there and she was receptive.

A few good months rolled by.

Recently, she was slightly under the weather for two weeks. I was immediately having feelings of doubt on whether or not it was just excuses, and quickly jumped to thinking it was another down cycle, one that I couldn't tolerate. Automatically, I was in a bad mood, not participating around the house as much etc. I didn't say anything, and it turned out that she went right back to regular sex after feeling better.

Looking back over the year, we've come a long a way, from near zero, to her regularly initiating and continually working on getting better. I've realized how much I have to stay on it too on my end of the deal and how much positive reinforcement for good behavior and quick negative reinforcement when a lapse begins to happen is not only important, it is critical. It has to be a swift and dramatic turn around to work.

I don't know if I am trying to make these swings dramatic intentionally, being the nicest and most helpful husband ever when she is paying attention to me regularly, to being extremely aloof and doing my own thing when I am being ignored, or if it just happening as a natural reaction to getting sex (and all the good feelings that go with it) or not.

My observations and questions on this process are:

1. The faster the HD partner can detach and truly do the 180, it seems the quicker the response will be (it took me a while to actually detach, even though I wanted to, my emotions were still tied to her daily actions - or lack thereof). This sudden not caring, was the hardest part, you have to mentally commit to letting go and the possibly of the relationship not working.

2. Once you start having success with the 180, the HD partner has to stay on it, I always envisioned that I would not need to manipulate my wife to get her to pay attention to me, but I guess if I have a technique that works, I should be happy that this can save my marriage. This may be just me finally learning what a true alpha should be like, and that my natural relationship style was not alpha enough. Perhaps this does come naturally to some. It is just as easy for me to slip into my natural non-alpha complacency as it is for her to retreat into a sexless mode.

3. How long will our sex life need to be good before I'll stop worrying that a short dip in frequency means a return toward sexlessness? I don't always want to be internally hitting the panic button that it is happening again - or maybe I do - so it doesn't ever have a chance to get there again...

4. I know that internally, I am holding a grudge at her for years of pain she caused me, and I think some permanent damage was done in that she seemed to be deceptive about communicating her real feelings to me. Will the resentment of a few years of sexless marriage fade, or is this a permanent wound that will always be just under the surface?

I am so much happier than a year ago...I think I have some tools to deal with this and luckily, it seems that we really do love each other enough to work through a very rough period. I think I can say that TAM advice saved my marriage.


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

Thank you for taking the trouble to report back, and I am glad that things are improving. Keep up the good work.


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## Playthang (Dec 3, 2012)

The truth? More than likely most of the responses hold answers to your questions. If she's not had/having an affair then I'm 10 foot tall. As hard as it may be to hear others opinions, that's why you're here. 
With that being said, move on.
Do you deserve the way you're being treated? I'm assuming you don't think so. 
Sex should get better not worse. And if you have a wife that won't (not can't) meet your needs it will ultimately end. Either because you've decided to do so, she's decided or because you stray and get caught. And that will make you the bad guy.
Everyone deserves happiness including her.
No one enjoys misery.
Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Playthang (Dec 3, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I bet it turns into something important when you spend the night at a new woman's house....


Very true! Almost comical, but true!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

re16 said:


> My frustration level has reached new heights and I need a third party perspective to let me know if I am off base or on point.
> 
> My wife has next to no sex drive. Today, she actually categorized having sex with me as "another Chore like working on the house, you don't want to do it, but then you do and it is allright".
> 
> ...



Your both in your sexual prime and very fit. Great.

Your wife is a hottie. Fantastic.

Sex at first was really good. Awesome.

Then suddenly your sex life dropped like a stone and it turns out she was having an affair.

If what she says is true, just chatting, your sex lives together wouldn't have dropped like a stone. She probably had sex with this guy.

Now you're doing chores and catering to her to try and get her attention?

Sounds like she is a hot, spoiled woman, cheated on you and now only gives you sex to keep the marriage going.

You're providing for her, doing the chores, she doesn't have to give you sex much, she had an affair and got away with it, etc.

She has you wrapped around her finger and she knows it!!!

And now having sex with you is a like a chore or duty sex?

I wouldn't be surprised at all if she's still cheating......from what you're described.

There's an old saying, the hotter they are, the more trouble they are.....


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## sgreenberg (Jul 9, 2013)

Do people even read through these threads before they respond? At least skim for a response by the OP? Apparently not.

Anyway, I'm glad you've figured out a way to make your marriage work and fix your wife's awful behavior.


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