# Staying Together for the Children?



## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Not an option I see tossed out much around here for struggling couples (excluding abuse, addictions & cheating) & just wondering why because we all know that people do.

I did until they left for college. My girls knew that we were not "in love" anymore (it happens) but they felt safe & secure & were able to concentrate on growing up. No shuttling between homes, no divorce issues, no step-parent issues.


Debate.......


----------



## lovingsummer (Jul 27, 2012)

My parents stayed together until a little while after I moved out (I'm the youngest of 3 kids) of the house. I wish they wouldn't have stayed together for us kids. There was not a whole lot "role modeling" good marriage skills. They were both unhappy for many years, slept in different bedrooms, etc. My Dad ended up having an affair and all hell broke out. Even though I was an adult, it was still extremely hurtful to me and was a nightmare seeing my parents with other people.

Their divorce was final a month before my wedding day and my Dad brought his affair partner to my reception (without my knowledge). My Mom was hurt and left my reception at the beginning, in tears.

The only good thing was as an adult, if either parent tried to be critical of the other I was able to say... That is my Mom/Dad, I love them with all my heart and your marriage was a seperate relationship, I don't want to hear it... Kids can't say usually say those things....


----------



## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

I could tell my parents were headed toward divorce when I was 14. Sure enough about 10 years later they called it quits. 

So why stay together for the kids then? What are you teaching them? How to be miserable? 

My mother was so much happier with her life once the divorce was finalized and she could get on with her life. 

My Dad was pretty bitter and could not let go of the "blaming" for years. 

Truly it would not have bothered me if when I was 14 they got divorced.


----------



## life.is.pain (Aug 28, 2012)

Im in this situation right now. Im trying to maintain staying with my wife because mainly for our 4 yr old son. Our daughter is already 14 going on 15 in 2 months so she understands more. But it would break my heart to leave my kids behind if i divorced my wife. My marriage is toxic as hell right now but i fight to be in it for my kids. My kids are my world. Yes it would probably be better to divorce instead of being in this crappy marriage. 

But then i won't see my kids everyday. I won't get to see them often. I didn't have kids to later on in life say im gonna leave them behind. Its difficult but i feel that im getting pushed to the point where i will have to make the difficult decision and just divorce cause wife pushes me hard with her abusive ways. She's mentally and emotionally abusive to me and i don't know how much longer i can take it. 

I woulda been long gone years ago from this marriage if kids weren't involved. Now i just live life day to day.


----------



## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

It's tough when you have a 4 year old. They need you everyday. My youngest is 10 ( son ) couldn't leave him right now either. 

But I do wonder if the time I would spend with them after a divorce maybe so much more productive. 

My daughter (13) knows that my wife and I are not getting along well at the moment. She may even be relieved if we got a divorce.

Shared custody can be worked out between spouses.


----------



## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

life.is.pain said:


> Im in this situation right now. Im trying to maintain staying with my wife because mainly for our 4 yr old son. Our daughter is already 14 going on 15 in 2 months so she understands more. But it would break my heart to leave my kids behind if i divorced my wife. My marriage is toxic as hell right now but i fight to be in it for my kids. My kids are my world. Yes it would probably be better to divorce instead of being in this crappy marriage.
> 
> But then i won't see my kids everyday. I won't get to see them often. I didn't have kids to later on in life say im gonna leave them behind. Its difficult but i feel that im getting pushed to the point where i will have to make the difficult decision and just divorce cause wife pushes me hard with her abusive ways. She's mentally and emotionally abusive to me and i don't know how much longer i can take it.
> 
> I woulda been long gone years ago from this marriage if kids weren't involved. Now i just live life day to day.


Is your wife abusive to you in front of the children?

Does your daughter know how unhappy you are?


----------



## life.is.pain (Aug 28, 2012)

Emerald said:


> Is your wife abusive to you in front of the children?
> 
> Does your daughter know how unhappy you are?


Yes wife is abusive in front of children especially verbally. Have told her many times to speak in private if she gonna yell or argue with me. 

My daughter is on my wifes side so daughter doesn't talk to me at all. Wife has brainwashed her making her self a victim in front of my kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HopelesslyJaded (Aug 14, 2012)

I know it's not advocated here but I will admit my kid's are the main thing that made me take a step back and rethink things. Yes I love my husband but haven't been feeling that in love feeling. So to me my kids deserve for me to try my best to hold things together as much as the vows I took when we married.

I think parents staying together solely for the children was very common in the past. I have heard several stories of people in their 30s and 40s talk about parents splitting within days or months of them graduating high school.


----------



## life.is.pain (Aug 28, 2012)

Yes when kids are involved the decision to divorce is not easy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

HopelesslyJaded said:


> I think parents staying together solely for the children was very common in the past. I have heard several stories of people in their 30s and 40s talk about parents splitting within days or months of them graduating high school.


Yep, my Uncle & Aunt did just that, soon as the girls were in College, they divorced, but my 2 cousins have talked to me about this and they WISH they divorced yrs earlier because the tension in the home... well, it was maddening. They didn't talk, 2 empty shells living in the same house. So even the kids don't always feel this is the better answer. 

I think if the couple is BOTH on board, devoted to overcome the resentments built, work on better commuication to salvage what was...carving a new uncharted beginning if they have too......this is doable, but if one has resigned, doesn't care, pushes the needs & cares of the other aside relentlessly.....I just feel that would be very difficult...then one's life becomes a living sacrifice -just for their children. 

Many many do it !! BUt at what cost?? Can they handle the cost. 

Some can, some can't. I don't think either are bad people.


----------



## in my tree (Jun 9, 2012)

I think it depends on the couple and the situation. When my mom left my dad, it was a relief for our family. My brother and sister no longer had to hide in the closet when he came home. We didn't tiptoe around the house anymore and since I was the youngest (4 y.o.) I never had to experience the violence that they did. I saw it but he didn't physically hurt me.

In other families I can see how splitting up may be more harmful to the kids than helpful. If the parents can get along and are still loving towards the kids, it might be a good thing. I dunno. I see oters here say that it's never a good thing for parents to "pretend" and they may be right. Kids are intuitive and know what's going on or at least have a sense of it no matter how hard we try to hide it.


----------



## Duraxilshw (Sep 7, 2012)

My dad is mentally abusive to my mother from what I've seen throughout my life. I blame his own family life and what he's seen and what his criminal brother has done to him. It's a shame because I know how incredibly, incredibly smart he is, but I can't bring myself to respect him. 

Mother has discussed how I felt if she divorced him when I was 8. Having her best friend divorce twice and seeing how it affected her two sons, I told her I was fine with it. She never did it. 

My respect for him started to get lower with him as he disrespected my space time and time again til he screwed me over in college and put the family in financial danger for a lawsuit that is now 7 years old. 

She's at her breaking point this year after 23 years unless he redeems himself. I had to interrupt an argument with him calling her extremely inappropriate names. It got out of control that it resulted in me getting struck in the face, my glasses breaking and my brothers protecting mother and I against him. 

Ever since then... he's been a bit more nicer... Actually helping more around the house and cooking. So... I think there is hope.

It would be hard on the family if they divorced mostly because the youngest is 10 and adopted. We want to provide a stable home for him.. but I won't stand for dad treating her poorly.


----------



## in my tree (Jun 9, 2012)

lovingsummer said:


> My parents stayed together until a little while after I moved out (I'm the youngest of 3 kids) of the house. I wish they wouldn't have stayed together for us kids. There was not a whole lot "role modeling" good marriage skills. They were both unhappy for many years, slept in different bedrooms, etc. My Dad ended up having an affair and all hell broke out. Even though I was an adult, it was still extremely hurtful to me and was a nightmare seeing my parents with other people.
> 
> Their divorce was final a month before my wedding day and my Dad brought his affair partner to my reception (without my knowledge). My Mom was hurt and left my reception at the beginning, in tears.


I can't imagine how painful that was for you all. How insensitive could he be? Jeez...

edit - ugh! The stories here are breaking my heart!


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I think even when people say they wish their parents had divorced earlier, how would they know? They don't know what it would have been like, moving between two homes, possibly dealing with a step parent or blended family. 

I'm sure it sucks hugely to grow up in a home where parents are not in a happy marriage, but would the alternative be any better? Obviously, this is only for families where there is no abuse. 

Statistically, as far as I know, kids do better when their family if origin remains intact. They are also less likely to get divorced themselves. So the idea that modelling an unhappy marriage is worse than modelling giving up on the marriage is not necessarily true.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I can understand why this would be a temptation, but it sounds like an awful idea to me.

Why? Because I believe it's the parents' job to show their children, whenever possible, how a strong, healthy relationship SHOULD look. Why raise your kids with a lifeless, loveless version of a marriage just for their sake? If you don't teach your kids how to expect better, and what an actually strong, real marriage looks like, then who will?


----------



## lovingsummer (Jul 27, 2012)

It was very painful, I called my Mom and begged her to come back for just 5 minutes so I could at least get a picture with my Mom and Dad on my wedding day. She did come back for a picture but left again  I don't blame her at all, wanted to rip my Dad's face off and beat him with it!!!! 

My Dad is still with his AP and my Mom is remarried now. My Mom is such a strong woman. She was able to put her feelings aside for the kids and grandkids (they have 6) so we could still do Christmas and grandkids birthdays as a family. I've thanked her over and over again for this. My Dad on the other hand, tried to "smooth it over" by telling me that him and AP didn't "do" anything until their divorces were final (she was married too). I told him that I didn't give a rat's a$$ whether they were physical or not. HE chose to put HIS attention and focus on another woman to the point that he had more feelings for HER than his WIFE.... THAT IS AN AFFAIR!!! I talk to him rarely but he's never brought up that subject with me again...


----------



## lovingsummer (Jul 27, 2012)

Lyris said:


> I think even when people say they wish their parents had divorced earlier, how would they know? They don't know what it would have been like, moving between two homes, possibly dealing with a step parent or blended family.
> 
> I'm sure it sucks hugely to grow up in a home where parents are not in a happy marriage, but would the alternative be any better? Obviously, this is only for families where there is no abuse.
> 
> Statistically, as far as I know, kids do better when their family if origin remains intact. They are also less likely to get divorced themselves. So the idea that modelling an unhappy marriage is worse than modelling giving up on the marriage is not necessarily true.


I do understand this point too. If the people who my parents are with now were my "step" parents growing up. It would not have pretty. I don't consider them my step parents, I only refer to them by their first names or Mom/Dad husband/girlfriend. I can only stand to be around them for short periods of time so maybe it was a blessing that they waited.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I can understand why this would be a temptation, but it sounds like an awful idea to me.
> 
> Why? Because I believe it's the parents' job to show their children, whenever possible, how a strong, healthy relationship SHOULD look. Why raise your kids with a lifeless, loveless version of a marriage just for their sake? If you don't teach your kids how to expect better, and what an actually strong, real marriage looks like, then who will?


But why should parents assume that divorcing will mean they can show their children a strong, happy marriage? Marriages where one or both spouses have been previously divorced are even more likely to fail.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Lyris said:


> But why should parents assume that divorcing will mean they can show their children a strong, happy marriage? Marriages where one or both spouses have been previously divorced are even more likely to fail.


How about showing children a strong, happy marriage, and if you can't provide that, teach them that it's worth waiting for?

Why grow your children in an environment where it's hammered in day after day that settling for a loveless, passionless marriage, all for the sake of the kids, is perfectly OK? The very fact that, over time, so many marriages only existed because of the children is the very reason we're even having this conversation. The concept has become so ingrained that millions of people take it as the norm.

Perhaps if we stopped making it typical, normal, and OK to stay together "for the kids", we could help make that a rare choice?


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

I do not advocate staying for the kids for any reason.

I didn't. My son was 18 months old when I divorced his Dad and I'd do it all over again.

It's not good for the children to grow up in a home where it is patently obvious that the marriage "is not quite right" even if there is no abuse, etc. Kids sense these things and your marriage becomes a role model for what they will mimic in the future.

So for me - a big fat HELL NO. Never, ever, for any reason.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Lyris said:


> But why should parents assume that divorcing will mean they can show their children a strong, happy marriage? Marriages where one or both spouses have been previously divorced are even more likely to fail.


More likely to fail doesn't mean it will.

My first marriage lasted 6 years--my second is going on 29 years so I am not one of those statistics.

Sometimes people just make a mistake the first time, as simple as that.

Statistics don't mean crap.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

jaquen said:


> How about showing children a strong, happy marriage, and if you can't provide that, teach them that it's worth waiting for?
> 
> Why grow your children in an environment where it's hammered in day after day that settling for a loveless, passionless marriage, all for the sake of the kids, is perfectly OK? The very fact that, over time, so many marriages only existed because of the children is the very reason we're even having this conversation. The concept has become so ingrained that millions of people take it as the norm.
> 
> Perhaps if we stopped making it typical, normal, and OK to stay together "for the kids", we could help make that a rare choice?


Because children who grow up in single parent households are more likely to be poor. Because children who grow up in single parent households have more complicated, difficult lives. Because girls who grow up not living with their biological father are more likely to be sexually abused. Because children -especially under five year olds - are more likely to be hurt and killed by a step parent than a biological parent. Because children grieve for whichever parent they're not with, no matter how equal the access. 

Obviously many children grow up just fine in separated families. But that doesn't mean their lives will be better than if their parents stayed together, and there is a significant risk that they will be worse. 

There are actually real reasons why children are better off in intact original families, even if they don't have a perfect example of a romantic relationship demonstrated to them. 

I'm lucky. My husband and I have a strong, happy marriage so I don't have to decide whether I'm staying for my children. But we have had dark times too, times when I would have liked to walk away. Part of what kept me in the marriage is our children, imagining their sadness and knowing how much more difficult their lives would be if we separated. So we did the work we needed to do to get things back on track.

I think very often the idea that it's better for children to have their parents separate than to have them unhappy is used by people to make themselves feel better about leaving.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Lyris said:


> I think even when people say they wish their parents had divorced earlier, how would they know? They don't know what it would have been like, moving between two homes, possibly dealing with a step parent or blended family.
> 
> I'm sure it sucks hugely to grow up in a home where parents are not in a happy marriage, but would the alternative be any better? Obviously, this is only for families where there is no abuse.
> 
> Statistically, as far as I know, kids do better when their family if origin remains intact. They are also less likely to get divorced themselves. So the idea that modelling an unhappy marriage is worse than modelling giving up on the marriage is not necessarily true.


My Mom was my example. She divorced my Dad when I was 6 and my brother 5 and struck out on her own.

We never missed him, he wasn't much of a Dad when they were married. She was much happier and we were too.

In fact, we NEVER missed him and he felt the same way. Gave us up for adoption to our stepfather a mere two years later.

Just because you have the "equipment" to have kids, doesn't make you a good parent and all parents aren't good parents.

Sometimes it is best if they divorce and everyone moves on.

I would drather GIVE UP on marriage then be in a marriage where I was unhappy and miserable. There are no do-overs, I only have one life to live and my philosophy is you try to make it the best life you can.

And while my mom's first marriage lasted a mere 7 years, her second lasted until he passed away (25 years).

So as I said in another post--sometimes we just make a crappy choice the first time around.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> More likely to fail doesn't mean it will.
> 
> My first marriage lasted 6 years--my second is going on 29 years so I am not one of those statistics.
> 
> ...


My best friend's father is like that. The marriage between he and my best's wife lasted about five or six years, and dissolved when he was a kid. Of the years his parents were very honest, and frank with him about why they didn't last.

His dad went on to remarry years later, and he has an incredible relationship with his second wife. My friend looks up to their marriage as a shining example of not only a good marriage, but feels, thanks to his dad, that you shouldn't ever settle with someone because of the kids. He believes that you should wait for the person who is right for YOU.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Lyris said:


> Because children who grow up in single parent households are more likely to be poor. Because children who grow up in single parent households have more complicated, difficult lives. Because girls who grow up not living with their biological father are more likely to be sexually abused. Because children -especially under five year olds - are more likely to be hurt and killed by a step parent than a biological parent. Because children grieve for whichever parent they're not with, no matter how equal the access.
> 
> Obviously many children grow up just fine in separated families. But that doesn't mean their lives will be better than if their parents stayed together, and there is a significant risk that they will be worse.
> 
> ...


More likely doesn't make it true.

I was a single parent for a short time and my 30 year old son is not poor. And my son is not in jail, on drugs or a homeless bum on the street because he was raised for a short time by a single parent and has had two Dads.

My mother was a single parent for a time also, and I am a 25-year military veteran with two college degrees and a 29-year marriage under my belt.

I've been on all sides of the coin. My mother divorced, I divorced, I've been a single parent, my Mom was a single parent and I turned out just fine and so did my son.

I'll use a current example. Bill Clinton and Barack Obama were primarily raised by single mothers--and I don't have to tell you how they turned out.

If people want to stay for the kids, hey--it's their misery, more power to them but I would never do it and I didn't. And I have never regretted my choice.

As I've said before - statistics aren't worth the paper they print them on.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Lyris said:


> Because children who grow up in single parent households are more likely to be poor. Because children who grow up in single parent households have more complicated, difficult lives. Because girls who grow up not living with their biological father are more likely to be sexually abused. Because children -especially under five year olds - are more likely to be hurt and killed by a step parent than a biological parent. Because children grieve for whichever parent they're not with, no matter how equal the access.
> 
> Obviously many children grow up just fine in separated families. But that doesn't mean their lives will be better than if their parents stayed together, and there is a significant risk that they will be worse.
> 
> ...


So the natural solution is to sacrifice DECADES of happiness, all for the sake of hoping your child doesn't become some hard to prove statistic?

I am a firm believer that the best place for children is in a loving environment, with two parents.

But I also do not believe that having children means you should throw away decades of an already too short life staying married to somebody whom you don't belong with.

What do you do when the kids are all grown up, have moved on, and you're likely a middle aged person facing the total uncertainty of starting all over again, looking for love? Since when did having children mean that you weren't allowed to rectify mistakes before they are old enough to strike out on their own?

And you do realize that grown kids can be traumatized by parents who split up to, right? It's actually much easier on a very young child's psyche to go through a divorce versus a grown up. The horror of finding out that your parents couldn't wait to dump each other, and that they both subjected themselves to years of unhappiness for your sake. Who wants to live with that burden? What does that do to a person?

No, life is too short. I personally think people in this day, and age, should avoid marriage all together unless they know, in every fiber of their being, that they can't live without their potential spouse. Now that's no guarantee, but a lot of people are getting married for the wrong reasons, make mistakes, and marry the wrong people. They should NOT be confined to 20+ years in marriage jail all because one sperm hit one egg.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree then. I've got plenty of anecdotes from my own family, including my husband, which show the ugly side of the effects divorce can have on children. 

And it's not true at all that it would be more damaging for an adult to have their parents divorce. It may feel more painful, but a very young child has a much more vulnerable sense of self and their brains are still literally forming. How many times on these boards do you hear about fear of abandonment, fear of commitment, fear of intimacy, codependency? Those are far more likely to come from a parent walking away than a less than ideal marriage. 

And once I decided to have kids, I dropped out of top spot in my own life. I chose to have them, I owe them the best I can provide. A big part of the best i can provide is living with their father, who they love and who loves them. Luckily, I love him too, but even when I didn't, I didn't kid myself they'd be better off without him.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

We're talking about divorce here, not splitting up and never seeing the father (or mother) again.

How did we jump from a discussion about TWO parents, who happen to be divorced, to talking about single parent households, and being better off without fathers?


----------



## HopelesslyJaded (Aug 14, 2012)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> More likely to fail doesn't mean it will.
> 
> My first marriage lasted 6 years--my second is going on 29 years so I am not one of those statistics.
> 
> ...


Take that last line there and tell it to the guys who use statistics to prove a single sexually promiscuous woman is more likely to cheat when married.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded (Aug 14, 2012)

jaquen said:


> We're talking about divorce here, not splitting up and never seeing the father (or mother) again.
> 
> How did we jump from a discussion about TWO parents, who happen to be divorced, to talking about single parent households, and being better off without fathers?


I think what she was trying to say is the back and forth could cause them to have issues. Both parents not living with them full time.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Yes, the back and forth, and while there are lots of separated parents who have equal care, there are also lots who don't, so children do effectively lose that parent. It's easy for a child to view that as a parent abandoning them.

My husband rarely saw his father after his parents' divorce and never saw his stepfather after his mother's second divorce. I have another family member who feels that her father left when her brothers were old enough to deal with it but he didn't think she was worth staying for. 

You can't ever know how children are going to interpret a divorce.


----------



## lovingsummer (Jul 27, 2012)

Like I said before, my parents divorced when I was an adult and it was still very painful for me and for the longest time I wished they'd get back together. (my own selfish thoughts because I knew they weren't happy) I was talking to one of their friends about the divorce and she told me that sometimes it happens. Sometimes parents spend so time being Mom and Dad they forget to be husband and wife. Then when the kids move out, they realize they have nothing left, nothing in common and they are with a stranger. 

This always stuck with me so my H and I have always told the kids that we aren't just Mom and Dad. We are husband and wife and that's why you have to stay with a babysitter sometimes. Now that they are teenagers, they encourage us to go to dinner, to a movie, go fishing, etc.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Emerald
> 
> Staying Together for the Children?
> ________________________________________
> ...


The words of (excluding abuse, addictions & cheating) are very important because if they were not included in your post I would say that one should never feel obligated to stay under those circumstances.

However since you added those words here is my view.

My parents were not physically abusive, addicted, or cheated. I did tell them once when I was a teenager to divorce. As a teen I just thought that if there was not a good amount of joy and affection in the marriage then it was not worth it. I still feel that way but years of life and reality has taught me a thing or two.

When I was young I had the optimistic view that life is mostly joy. That began to change after age 40. I started seeing life as periods of joy with many joy killers. Killers such as finances, selfishness, American culture fulfilling romance as fading, Job stresses, children stresses, spouse stresses, health issues, and that most people fall into those categories.

I started to realize that if my spouse was not physically abusive, an addict, or a cheater then I had a very slim chance of doing better by looking for greener grass on the other side of town. This seemed to be very true as the older you get. 

My parents stayed together against my teenage advice. It was not a relationship that showed much affection at all but they did have us children in common as well as the same faith and political views. In addition they were both good workers and provided for us very well. They both came from poverty and they both pulled themselves out of poverty and enjoyed all the necessities of life and some luxuries later in life.

As the years go by the stick to it philosophy seemed to start to pay off. I would say that their first 30 years of marriage was very hard. However, the next 30 years I can see some pay off for sticking together. The payoffs are:

1	They are financially secure
2	The became a home for family gatherings and kept all of us children close to them
3	They both continued to encourage us to build our faith
4	We children see our parents a lot. For me it is almost daily with going to lunch with them at least 3 times a week. My sister also visits almost daily and my brother at least once a week.
5	Our children, their grandchildren, stay in contact with them on at least monthly basis and some on a weekly basis.
6	Most of us children and some grandchildren go to church almost every Sunday with our parents. Yes sometimes we go just because we are so appreciative of our parents and are not all that anxious to go to church. However, after we go we are always glad that we did then we all go to lunch every Sunday.
7	We children and grandchildren are very close to my Dad and Mom. They are both very good people.

*They still do not show much if any affection for each other and it is obvious that they get most of their joy in life from their children and grandchildren.*

So to answer the question
Staying together for the children?
*It has paid off big time for them and us in the later years.*

There is absolutely no one that could take the place of my father or mother.
If they would have divorced their new spouse could never take the place of either my mother of father. 

Could we have had a good relationship with the new spouses? My guess would be that it would be possible but I will never know. 
*For the last 30 years I am absolutely glad that my father and mother did not take my advice and divorce.*


----------



## rj700 (Jun 22, 2012)

There are a lot of things that factor into this. I was about 11 or 12 when I became aware of my parents troubles. My mother had an old wooden table down in the basement and she would go down there and beat on it with a hammer. My Dad was a pilot (private corporate jets) so he was away a lot. I idolized him.

When he moved out, I acted out in a big way. Made things extremely difficult on my Mother, but as far as I was concerned it was her fault and I let her know that constantly. I had 2 older sisters (3 yrs & 13 yrs older). They were much more aware of the true dynamics. He moved back in which I thought was because of me (again, my perception).

One night, my Mother went in the garage, door closed, started the car. My Dad was sitting in the family room, watching TV. He absolutely knew what she was doing and did nothing. I believe my sister called my older sister - who was living on her own by then - and they got her to the hospital. My Dad never went to visit her in the hospital. He fell off my pedastal. I never looked at him the same after that.

They stayed together for a few more years, including a move completely across the country. I still don't understand why. I don't know how that shaped me, my views. But I know it affected me greatly at the time. I felt very guilty of how I treated my Mother and became fiercely loyal to her.

Here is the kicker though. They got divorced just before I finished high school. It was probably 10 years after that, but they ended up being great friends. They both had SO's, but we would all get together for family holidays, including their SO's, mine & my sister's family. And we were all very much a big happy family at those times, better than it ever was when they were together. They even remarried, but on paper only so that my Mom could get complete military benefits from his Air Force retirement.

I only truly reconnected/bonded with my Dad decades later, about 2 years before he died.


----------



## 94nole (Aug 2, 2012)

lovingsummer said:


> Like I said before, my parents divorced when I was an adult and it was still very painful for me and for the longest time I wished they'd get back together. (my own selfish thoughts because I knew they weren't happy) I was talking to one of their friends about the divorce and she told me that sometimes it happens. Sometimes parents spend so time being Mom and Dad they forget to be husband and wife. Then when the kids move out, they realize they have nothing left, nothing in common and they are with a stranger.
> 
> This always stuck with me so my H and I have always told the kids that we aren't just Mom and Dad. We are husband and wife and that's why you have to stay with a babysitter sometimes. Now that they are teenagers, they encourage us to go to dinner, to a movie, go fishing, etc.


You just described, to a T, what happened with my wife and I. We forgot us. And now, after our youngest headed off to college/his life, we're separated. No affairs...no nothing. There was simply no relationship there. Honestly, not sure there ever was. Our boys and our church were the two overwhelming reasons we stuck it out. We were cordial...didn't fuss and fight...but were never really a couple although we did fake it pretty often and pretty well. In the end, we determined that the only things we had left in common were two outstanding young men (our sons) and a mailing address.


----------



## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

When I say stay together for the children, I do not advocate it if people are miserable including the children. 

That would be ridiculous.

I am talking about people that find themselves out of love with each other but stay together peacefully for the greater good of the family. 

Once the children are launched, they can then go their separate ways & look for love again should they want to.

It is never too late to find love. You are never "too old."


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

> So we did the work we needed to do to get things back on track.


_(emphasis MINE)_

Aha, Lyris, THERE is the kicker! That is where YOUR marriage differs from a LOT of other marriages or former marriages here at TAM. You and your spouse BOTH were willing to acknowledge the problems and work on them.

There are a helluva lot of spouses and ex-spouses here who talk a lot about how their spouse or ex-spouse WOULD NOT acknowledge problems, would not DISCUSS problems, would NOT attempt to change behavior, WOULD NOT consider - talk about - attend ANY TYPE OF COUNSELING or assistance or learning or change. They wouldn't even READ A BOOK about improving the marriage dynamic because that would have meant that (a) they were wrong [and that could NEVER be] or (b) they were going to have to change and be uncomfortable and be unhappy sometimes [and that is just NOT acceptable as *I* am perfectly content with the way things are NOW --I'm getting my own selfish way and I'm happy.]

So, in your 'perfect' world, once you have kids, the unhappy spouse who wants/needs/seeks change is just sh*t outta luck unless other spouse just happens to be mature enough to acknowledge problems and decide that BOTH spouses should get what they need out of a relationship! :scratchhead:

Nope! You're sellin it, but I ain't buyin it.


----------



## Minuit à Paris (Sep 3, 2012)

Staying together for the kids is also about staying together for the other person. So that neither one of you has to not see the kids. 

Sometimes even though you fight and dont want to be together you still love each other and don't want to cause pain.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Emerald said:


> I am talking about people that find themselves out of love with each other but stay together peacefully for the greater good of the family.
> 
> Once the children are launched, they can then go their separate ways & look for love again should they want to.
> 
> It is never too late to find love. You are never "too old."


You have to have a certain resolve, and temperament, to pull this off without killing yourself. What you describe here, for me, is a soul killer. It would be beyond a nightmare. It would be hell.

Why? Because I live a life of passion. I've always been like that. To abide staying in relationship with people in my life I have to feel, feel deeply, and feel consistently. A cordial, nice, loveless marriage sounds, to me, worse than a discordant, dysfunctional, but passion filled, one. 

I suppose to a person who has the kind of temperament that allows them to, day in and day out, live a married life along side somebody who is essentially a roommate, this might seem a nice compromise. To someone like me, however, this sounds like a horror movie.


----------



## Ducky316 (Aug 16, 2012)

I stayed in a loveless marriage for 17 years...Unfortunately my children also could easily see that we were not in love. I believe this affected my two older children. At the time of the divorce they were 16 and 12. I am now in a very healthy and openly loving marriage, and feel my younger boys will benefit from seeing how a realitionship "should" be...I worry about my older boys though....I as well am a product of a very disfuctional marriage where my Mom and Dad stayed in it for us kids....

It did not benefit me...as I turned around and did the same thing.

I'd say get out before it damages the children anymore! Your children would rather see you happy and apart than miserable and together.


----------



## Ducky316 (Aug 16, 2012)

Lyris said:


> Marriages where one or both spouses have been previously divorced are even more likely to fail.


I challenge you to show us where you found this information...I simply do not believe it. It might be true for spouses who have been married multiple times...but not once before. Sorry I am not buying it...I learned SO much from my first marriage and now I am a completely different kind of wife! Without repeating the same mistakes I made previously, my marriage is solid!


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Once you have kids, what is best for them outweighs your personal happiness and fulfillment. Or it should. 

So yeah, choose who you have kids with pretty carefully. And if you don't think you can suck it up in a less than happy marriage for a few years, don't have them at all. Most marriages get worse after kids are born, at least for the first five or six years.


----------



## Ducky316 (Aug 16, 2012)

I am also going to add that you live your life once. That life should be lived for YOU and no one else...Not even your kids. Of course you have certain responsibilities to your children...but you don't have to sacrifice your happiness to be a good parent!!! LIVE FOR YOU!


----------



## Ducky316 (Aug 16, 2012)

Lyris said:


> Once you have kids, what is best for them outweighs your personal happiness and fulfillment. Or it should.


I just couldn't disagree with this more. After my first marriage, I made a conscience decision that I would live my life for me, and no one else...and THAT'S EXACTLY how I want my kids to live their lives!


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Ducky316 said:


> I challenge you to show us where you found this information...I simply do not believe it. It might be true for spouses who have been married multiple times...but not once before. Sorry I am not buying it...I learned SO much from my first marriage and now I am a completely different kind of wife! Without repeating the same mistakes I made previously, my marriage is solid!


This is from a report on divorce and separation put out by the Australian Bureau of Statistics.



> Second and subsequent marriages following divorce have a slightly greater risk of breakdown than first marriages.


The whole report can be found here; http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/pubs/diversity/15divorce.pdf


----------



## Ducky316 (Aug 16, 2012)

Lyris said:


> This is from a report on divorce and separation put out by the Australian Bureau of Statistics.
> 
> 
> 
> The whole report can be found here; http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/pubs/diversity/15divorce.pdf


I don't live in Australia...:scratchhead:


----------



## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

As I was abandoned by my parents at the age of ten (sent to live with relatives) I am very much of the view that the interests of the children must come first. Parents' interests should come second. It was the parents who decided to have children not vice-versa and what happens in your early formative years marks you so much more deeply (I still have emotional problems fifty years later). 

What this means in practice is difficult to say but normally I would hope the parents stay together though obviously there may be circumstances where this may not be best.

Of course divorcing may only add to the problems. A friend of mine was married three times, children by all three wives. As the children were quite close in age the child sharing arrangements were a nightmare. He spent the weekend ferrying children backwards and forwards.

Both his two first wives left him. He was a hardworking man but I think perhaps a bit of a doormat at home. They were both very determined women.

Happily for me my marriage is quite different though I made sure we kept our daughters close at home until they were 18/19.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Ducky316 said:


> I don't live in Australia...:scratchhead:


So what? The principles remain the same. 

I'm assuming you're in the US, I bet the statistics say the same thing there. In fact, I think the overall divorce rate is higher in the US than in Australia, which is where I am and why I used that study.


----------



## lovingsummer (Jul 27, 2012)

94nole said:


> You just described, to a T, what happened with my wife and I. We forgot us. And now, after our youngest headed off to college/his life, we're separated. No affairs...no nothing. There was simply no relationship there. Honestly, not sure there ever was. Our boys and our church were the two overwhelming reasons we stuck it out. We were cordial...didn't fuss and fight...but were never really a couple although we did fake it pretty often and pretty well. In the end, we determined that the only things we had left in common were two outstanding young men (our sons) and a mailing address.


It is sad when that happens so I guess that's one thing I took away from their marriage of 31 years. 

When our son turned 16, he started to act out and was a foot taller than me by then. He yelled at me and was doing a threatening stance. I gave him the what for and took care of the problem. I told my husband about it, then he talked to our son. He told him, if you ever talk to MY WIFE like that again, I will kick your a$$ and I don't care if I go to jail, I have money to get out. 

Saying MY WIFE instead of "your Mom" had a big impact on our son. He's been pretty dang good since then  My H told me early in our marriage that he would always love me more than the kids. As a Mom, I just couldn't understand until he said... they will grow up, move out, move on then it will be just you and I forever... I need to love you more... so smart of him


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Emerald
> When I say stay together for the children, I do not advocate it if people are miserable including the children.
> 
> That would be ridiculous.
> ...





> By Emerald
> I am talking about people that find themselves out of love with each other but stay together peacefully for the greater good of the family.


My parents have never shown romance or physical affection towards each other. They did later in life show each other more consideration. Does that fit your criteria for out of love for each other?

If your answer is yes then this is the results:

As the years go by the stick to it philosophy seemed to start to pay off. I would say that their first 30 years of marriage was very hard. However, the next 30 years I can see some pay off for sticking together. The payoffs are:

1 They are financially secure
2 The became a home for family gatherings and kept all of us children close to them
3 They both continued to encourage us to build our faith
4 We children see our parents a lot. For me it is almost daily with going to lunch with them at least 3 times a week. My sister also visits almost daily and my brother at least once a week.
5 Our children, their grandchildren, stay in contact with them on at least monthly basis and some on a weekly basis.
6 Most of us children and some grandchildren go to church almost every Sunday with our parents. Yes sometimes we go just because we are so appreciative of our parents and are not all that anxious to go to church. However, after we go we are always glad that we did then we all go to lunch every Sunday.
7 We children and grandchildren are very close to my Dad and Mom. They are both very good people.


----------



## Vegemite (Apr 12, 2012)

If you look at the coping with infidelity forum, you'll find plenty of examples of this very predicament. I'm one of them. 

My CW is a serial cheat. For most, you think it would be a no brainer to leave her. I've tried several times. That was my decision. But she has begged and pleaded to hold the marriage together. It's not abusive, not even bad, but it is loveless. But I get maximum time with my children.

I'm not trying to give an answer, just saying it's a horrid situation to be in.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Why do people go to such extremes on this board?

A couple of us mention that you only live once, and that your personal happiness should matter in this life. And the knee jerk reaction is to start talking about abandoning your kids, and generally being selfish?



There ARE parents who strike a balance between being incredible caregivers to their kids, AND making sure their own needs and desires are fulfilled. I don't see why it should be suggested that people throw their happiness out the window just because some people are willing to revolve their entire existence around a child's needs, their own personal happiness be damned.


----------



## rj700 (Jun 22, 2012)

Jaquen, I think they go to extremes because they interpret your comment based on their own experience. You mentioned striking a balance, I agree with that completely. But the knee jerk reactions likely come from experiences with imbalance.

And the question in the OP has no "winning" answer, it is entirely dependent on the circumstances AND the personalities involved.


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

Sorry, I would not do it. I would not raise my daughter in an abusive home. I would not expose my daughter to illegal smoking, then offering to smoke once 18. Nope, I could not do this. I know you said excluding this, but the children know when their parents are not happy. There tends to be more fighting in the house and less harmony. My first marriage was not a good one.

I can really tell the difference in attitude with the children. My younger two are much more secure in life then my oldest daughter. My husband and I have a beautiful marriage. My husband grew up with parents who were in love with each other. My husband and I are in love with each other and always kissing, holding hands, saying "I love you", gifting small gifts, flirting, ect....

By staying in an unhappy marriage, what is this message to the child? Sell yourself short of happiness? Stay together for convenience? Both are wrong in my opinion. If I stayed with my current husband for the kids, I'd be using him for his very hard work he does to provide for us. There is no way on earth I would do this.

We do everything together as a family. I could not imagine myself living in an unhappy marriage. I've experienced both and I choose happiness and love vs the other.


----------



## YellowRoses (Jun 2, 2012)

The ONLY thing really wrong with my marriage is my h's serial cheating (numerous quick flings)

We are currently separated for 3m - my sons (12 and 10) are with me and ask nearly daily can dad come back ?

He's a good provider, a good dad, looks after me (apart from breaking my heart of course) and we had a full family life

I've done nothing wrong but I feel the breaking up of the family is my burden to bear - he wants back, they want him back, life would be easier with him back. 

The boys know roughly what he's done but we also teach them that if you love each other you work through problems. Its dead simple at 10 and 12 - we all love each other (some of us maybe not enough) and our family values include not quitting and working things out. Why can't mum and dad work it out so we can be happy again ?

Its killing me (my personal feelings versus my children)


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

YellowRoses said:


> The ONLY thing really wrong with my marriage is my h's serial cheating (numerous quick flings)


Quick flings or not, that is very wrong and you could very well end up with a lifelong unwanted STD. My ex h is a serial cheater and never got over it. He still cheats today on his current wife. She puts up with it, I never did. If my current husband whom I'm very much in love with has even 1 EA/PA, I'm out the door. I will not ever put myself in that place again.


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I think it depends on the couple.

I've never seen a child of divorce who didn't suffer horribly so the accepted answer of "Never Stay for the kids" is laughable to me.

I know for a fact my daughter would be harmed more in the long run by divorce than by me "Staying for the kids" so my choice would already be made.

Age of the kids is also a consideration.

There is no single answer to this question, as with everything else "It depends"


----------



## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

My parents divorced when I was 7. He remarried and moved halfway across the country. Yes, there was abuse, alcohol, fighting...my Dads cheating came later. I didn't see my dad for 5 or so years. I know this is not part of the what the OP wanted to omit. Life was hard when my dad left. 

Ive been with my wife for 20 years now with an 8 year old. A year ago, I was close to leaving myself. Maybe selfish reasons... I don't know. Because of my rotten childhood, I didn't want to rtepeat history. Because of my daughter, I am doing my best and it seems to be getting better. So...so far, I am glad I stayed. I still want things to get better and they may.

In my family, there is no ause, no cheating, and I think we treat each other, for the most part, with respect. We have our moments though.

When our daughter leave for college? I don't really know. I kinda think we are still together for our daughter.


----------



## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Emerald said:


> Not an option I see tossed out much around here for struggling couples (excluding abuse, addictions & cheating) & just wondering why because we all know that people do.
> 
> I did until they left for college. My girls knew that we were not "in love" anymore (it happens) but they felt safe & secure & were able to concentrate on growing up. No shuttling between homes, no divorce issues, no step-parent issues.
> 
> ...


If it was as simple as just falling out of love...That may work until the kids leave. What about when one of them finds somebody to give them the love and attention they have been missing out on? That is when the problems start. We all crave that love and feeling desired. Especially if we don't have that at home. Do we deny that until all the kids leave home? Maybe we have to. We marry for better or for worse. The trick is to make it through the worse times and just hope things get better before one of the two have an affair.

I agree with Tacoma. There is no single answer.


----------



## YellowRoses (Jun 2, 2012)

You are right there is no single answer and I can't decide the right one for us yet


----------



## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

YR..Sometimes forgiveness is not as easy as it seems. I think as your children get older, they will understand better. For me, I was in my 20's before I realized my dad was a serial cheater. 

No matter what, people have issues in their life. I know people who had a wonderful childhood with loving parents and still had issues in their adult life and blamed their parents because they had such a perfect marriage and couldn't find a husband who treated her like her dad treated her mom.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

I stayed for the children after wife's affair. Bu I also worked at the relationship.

We are now nearing the empty-nest stage. I think we will be ok. In fact I think they will be the best years of our lives. But it was hard work to get here.


----------



## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

When my wife divorced me, it came as a total shock to our kids. There was no "bad moments" in our house. So, I wonder what message that sent to our children. Perhaps, "marriage is not a serious thing; if one isn't buttering the bread like you want, then divorce, it's no big deal."


----------



## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

southbound said:


> When my wife divorced me, it came as a total shock to our kids. There was no "bad moments" in our house. So, I wonder what message that sent to our children. Perhaps, "marriage is not a serious thing; if one isn't buttering the bread like you want, then divorce, it's no big deal."


Ouch. I am so sorry about this. What did she tell your children?


----------



## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

tacoma said:


> I think it depends on the couple.
> 
> I've never seen a child of divorce who didn't suffer horribly so the accepted answer of "Never Stay for the kids" is laughable to me.
> 
> ...


Agree with "it depends."

Also as you say the "accepted answer - Never Stay for the Kids" may be coming from some people who don't have children?

People who haven't had the miraculous experience of giving birth, raising a child to adulthood, the sacrifices that yes, may include staying married for them.


----------



## YellowRoses (Jun 2, 2012)

'Never stay for the kids' sounds great in theory

But in the same way as you would take on any illness or disability if your child could be spared, I want to spare them what I can in other ways. If that means I take more crap than I should then so be it. The trouble is there's always a limit.

It doesn't take a genius of a child to work out that family life has so much going for it compared to 2 households for us and mine have worked it out

If mum forgives dad, dad then behaves we can all live happily ever after, still have holidays and school fees paid, a nice family home, no to-ing and fro-ing, no having to remember who you told what, no awkward family parties, no awkward graduations or weddings in the future, no having 2 lots of contacts details for everything. Right ?

I wish I knew, I know I can't subject them to a third meltdown


----------



## Vegemite (Apr 12, 2012)

Yellow roses,great post. While it's not an ideal solution, it's such a mess, especially when infidelity is involved, no solution is good.

I can so relate.





YellowRoses said:


> 'Never stay for the kids' sounds great in theory
> 
> But in the same way as you would take on any illness or disability if your child could be spared, I want to spare them what I can in other ways. If that means I take more crap than I should then so be it. The trouble is there's always a limit.
> 
> ...


----------



## Santa (May 31, 2012)

You are teaching them how the marriage they have should be and will be. You are the role model for "marriage" and relationships for them and they will copy to certain extent as they grow up and search out a partner according. 


So guess it depends on how you want your childs life and marriage to be oneday..


----------

