# Checked out wife status update



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

Hey all, here goes a status update with a dash of insecurity and a sprinkle of hope. It just helps to get other perspectives as I march through this.

If you've been following you know that our marriage went downhill after the 2nd kid came. She is struggling with what I believe to be a mixture of midlife crisis (MLC), post-partum depression, and walk away wife syndrome (see divorce busting website). I am struggling with pursuer - distancer, where I've chased / demanded for sex for many years. I can't compete with the memory of who she fell in love with, which was when we were 2 young 30 somethings with plenty of discretionary money and were vacationing a lot. Now we're older doing the day-to-day with the kids.

I've read a lot of psych on this, and apparently this whole situation is incredibly common. Unfortunately there are different schools of thought of how I should be handling myself, such as detaching vs. providing a continuous supply of love deposits (ref 5 languages of love). One thing that is common is to focus on self-improvement and stop looking to her for happiness / affirmation. 

I'm holding up fairly well in that I now get reasonable sleep and I stopped losing weight over this with the nerves. But I am still on a rollercoaster of emotions where I feel like I can wait this out and then other times I feel hopeless and I don't want to waste time chasing something that may never happen. We're at about 5-6 weeks now of no sex, no touching. She still cooks, cleans, and talks to me about casual stuff. I'm still being the great dad, not chasing, not trying to initiate deep conversations. We're both doing IC and a 3rd session of MC is coming up.

Because we're in this state of co-habitation it is hard to tell where I stand (which helps with the stamina to keep going). Obviously I can't approach her with such a question. Some days I feel like she is just using me to pay bills while she furthers her exit strategy. Then other days I feel like she is putting in the work. She keeps everything very close to the vest, and it comes off as sneaky to me.

I can tell that all her focus right now is squarely on herself and I don't know if that is good or bad, but I think the idea is if she feels happy again, then she will come to realize she does still love me. She is really focusing on her workouts (she almost never worked out previous to the bomb drop), her son's baseball, and she finally got a job and is going back to work. I think her switching to stay at home mom was a huge catalyst to many of these issues.

On the flip side she goes out of her way to exclude me from pictures, doesn't talk too much about the future, and doesn't spend any quality time with me at all. She also seems to find an excuse each night as to why we can't sleep in the same bed (blame it on the toddler wanting to be in our bed or snuggle with her son). Maybe part of her IC is telling her to eliminate all of the reminders of our old marriage and kill off all old routines.

Anyway, I know I'm supposed to focus on myself and stop being an insecure schmuck, but I can't help trying to analyze things because as the pursuer I thrive on progress. There are kids lives at stake here if there is divorce, so I want to remain vigilant. Part of me wants to set a deadline for myself as a way to timebox this thing, even if I decide to switch it later. Maybe someone else can comment on how long they went through this. My wife and I already agreed that we will not do this for years, but what about 8 more weeks? until Christmas? I don't know if I can stomach the hurt that long or why I even tolerate it.

Thanks for reading.


----------



## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

Go read No More Mr. Nice Guy (short read) and it will give you some eye opening perspectives


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

waynejoey said:


> Hey all, here goes a status update with a dash of insecurity and a sprinkle of hope. It just helps to get other perspectives as I march through this.
> 
> If you've been following you know that our marriage went downhill after the 2nd kid came. She is struggling with what I believe to be a mixture of midlife crisis (MLC), post-partum depression, and walk away wife syndrome (see divorce busting website). I am struggling with pursuer - distancer, where I've chased / demanded for sex for many years. I can't compete with the memory of who she fell in love with, which was when we were 2 young 30 somethings with plenty of discretionary money and were vacationing a lot. Now we're older doing the day-to-day with the kids.
> 
> ...


I don't know your story, but one thing is obvious after reading this post. Your wife is not in love with you anymore. If I had to guess, I would say there's a good chance that she's cheating, OR there has been another man in the past that she fell for and when they fall for someone else, they fall OUT of love with you. It never comes back. That's the hard thing to understand and accept--- their love will NOT return, even if they wanted it to. 

I personally would file for divorce. The only one that wants this relationship is you. That's not going to change. You are just keeping yourself in limbo and I think it's a miracle you're not still losing weight and totally miserable.

Get out of this. It's torture. That's my advice. Do not treat your wife like she is an irreplaceable fixture. She has made you replaceable, obviously. 

Your first thought that she is just biding her time, planning an exit strategy---- That is EXACTLY what is going on here.
I hate it for you. Accept it. Until you do, you can't move forward and out of misery, on to happiness.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

In general I think anything other than a solid, unqualified yes is a no. 

People are usually doing one of three things - 

-Giving their all to work it out and make it good - 


- Actively packing their bags and moving full steam ahead towards their new life.


- Marking their time and waiting till they have the resources and confidence to move out. This can be waiting until they have a certain amount of money built up, waiting for the kids to get a little older, or waiting to get a clear message from their AP that the AP will take them once they leave. 

Based on her behaviors (not her words!) which of these three things seems most likely?


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

I've heard suggestions on this forum several times that she is cheating and it just isn't true. I know her whereabouts at all times and I can prove them in a variety of ways. There simply is no time for her to be doing that, and I work from home. If she was cheating, she would be doing it over the phone for several months. What kind of dude would want to be having phone sex with an about to be twice divorced woman with 3 kids across 2 dads for months at a time.

I did read a bunch of no more mr. nice guy. I didn't find it very helpful. Divorcebusting.com seems to accurately describe this situation and other books such as how to leave or love a dismissive partner and married men's sex life primer.

Just get a divorce you say? There are kids involved. I feel like at least 2 more months of pain is maybe worth it to make absolutely sure, but like I said I don't think I can handle 6. If she is that jacked up over this, then its time to move on. I am keeping this deadline to myself for now.
@oldshirt - she can't save money up, we have joint accounts and I have all the income. When she starts working the money will go into our shared account, I see every dollar that transacts. And again, I strongly believe there is not an AP. So that leaves us with actively packing bags or giving it their all. She can't pack her bags, there is nowhere to go and she will no way in hell walk out on her kids. She can keep things sexless way longer than I can.

So I guess that leaves us with giving it her all, which is very inspiring.

I'm thinking to give this 8 more weeks. In 3 weeks she starts full-time work, which will give her a sense of self and get us back to the dynamic we had when we were in love. Then another 5 weeks for that to sink in. On that 5th week we have a couples trip planned in Vegas.

If we're not being physically intimate on a Vegas trip with all the nightlife, fancy outfits, swanky hotel room, and no kids then there is nothing that will save this marriage.

What do you guys think about that plan? Being too nice? Being too optimistic?

I plan to use these 8 weeks to boost my physical fitness, create a support network of friends (I have none since I re-located), and tentatively get legal items in order. 

I was also thinking about casually meeting some women through social dating apps, not to physically cheat, but just to get to know more people and have some of the opposite sex on my team. Do you think that is pushing it too far? If my wife was doing that I would flip out, but I feel like a double standard is in order. I'm not the one who took sex away.


----------



## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

I agree with all the comments above. She's checked out and buying time. There is probably someone else online, Facebook...etc.

I've been through this. There are lots of red flags here and in your other posts as well. It's time to take action and talk to an attorney.

Ask yourself these questions.

Do you want to spend the rest of your life in this situation?
Do you really think she will change?
How much longer are you willing to put up with her crap?

Here's an exercise for you. I did this before I filed for divorce and it helped me make my decision. 

On the right side of a paper, make a list of all the reasons to stay. On the left side, make a list of all the reasons to leave.

Be honest with yourself and take emotion out of the equation. If you are anything like me you will have 2 or 3 items in the stay side and at least 20 on the leave side.

If your best friend or brother came to you with this story and asked for advice, what would you tell them?

Take your own advice. The path you should take is obvious. Make the decision, then make it the right decision.


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

She has told her own family on multiple occasions and me that she does not want to be divorced. She even got mad that someone even brought up the thought, but again that is just words.

She also told me she feels it would be easier to fix things than too divorce. Maybe my comments here are skewed too much to the negative because obviously I only come to the site when I'm looking for inspiration.

We did just have a pretty decent family vacation and got along pretty well. Towards the end my wife was really engaging with me at the theme park and grabbing my arm a couple times and what not. But when we got back home, a little bit of the negative energy / boredom seemed to come back.

Maybe I'll jot down the reasons and post them here.


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

waynejoey said:


> She has told her own family on multiple occasions and me that *she does not want to be divorced.* She even got mad that someone even brought up the thought, but again that is just words.
> 
> *She also told me she feels it would be easier to fix things than too divorce.* Maybe my comments here are skewed too much to the negative because obviously I only come to the site when I'm looking for inspiration.
> 
> ...


Why should she want to be divorced. She has chump to take care of her and feed her ego .

She "told you x,y, z". She doesn't have sex with you. Enough said. She's not in love with you.

That pick me dance that you have reached Bing Crosby status on--- what exactly has that gotten you all this time?

Inspiration: Leave her. Let her see you having a happy life. Allow her some time to miss you. If there's any love there, she might. I doubt it.
What she says and what she does don't match up. Go with her actions. You are really killing any chance you have of staying married, by playing the pick me dance. Gotta be willing to blow things up, or it will go off in your face and she'll be gone.


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

I'm starting to look at it this way. If she is cheating or planning an exit strategy, it makes no sense for me to snoop or worry about it too much. At the end of the day, we're reconciled by labor day or this is over, so all the conjecture doesn't matter. It is also important to let her start her job, because if I divorce before then I'll get slapped with alimony. I also probably didn't do a good job of describing her motherhood. She will absolutely put the kids first and above and beyond herself. The thought of divorce makes her sick. When I stopped threatening divorce, her depression seemed to subside and she shifted into self-improvement.

Reasons to Stay
Counseling ends up being a success, we both address our issues that we came into the marriage with, and we finally get the marriage we both want.
We're both great parents and we do very well managing chores and the house. If we divorce, things will really be disrupted for the little ones.
Recognizing we both have issues, if we leave we are likely to just have this same problem with the next person.
We both really enjoy spending time together, even if the sex isn't happening right now, we are still very good friends.
I relocated to this city for her. Her family is very supportive and nice to me and its a nice way of life.


Reasons to Leave
I get to use all the stuff I learned about this process on my next relationship and ensure this doesn't happen again (hopefully).
I can try to ensure I get the sex life I want, although because of the honeymoon period this could take incredibly long to know for sure, does anyone really ever know!?
I can get that dopamine hit again and the rush of a new relationship, the thrill of the chase, but it will only be temporary.
I can find someone more successful and have even more joint income, but I don't really care about money, and I make plenty as it is.
I can completely detach and move on, and eventually the hurt will go away.

I dunno the reasons to leave don't seem that strong. Maybe I'm just valuing touch and sex way too high right now and I should stop being a baby and let her have her 3 months off so she can reset. If I can't do that, what kind of man am I? A nice guy? Everyone seems to be leaning in the nice guy / chump camp, but I can tell you it takes a real man to take a dagger for the kids and stay strong while someone wrestles with depression.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

waynejoey said:


> @oldshirt - she can't save money up, we have joint accounts and I have all the income. When she starts working the money will go into our shared account, I see every dollar that transacts. And again, I strongly believe there is not an AP. So that leaves us with actively packing bags or giving it their all. She can't pack her bags, there is nowhere to go and she will no way in hell walk out on her kids. She can keep things sexless way longer than I can.
> 
> So I guess that leaves us with giving it her all, which is very inspiring.


Wow. That is one of the biggest examples of self-delusion I have seen here. 

It's amazing how much mental gymnastics someone can do to convince themselves of what they want to believe. 

But let's break this down piece by piece - 

"Money" - she doesn't need to save up her own money to leave you/divorce. Once she files, half of your joint marital assets become hers. The final divorce will award her roughly 50% of the marital assets, plus child support and likely some spousal support since she isn't working. She doesn't need her own cash fund, she will have access to yours. 


"AP" - Have you actually looked into this? And by looking into it I do not mean have you asked her or have accounted for most of her time. I mean have you hacked into her computer/email/social media? Have gotten phone logs of her phone? Have you stashed voice activated recorders and GPS trackers in her car. Have you gone through every inch of the house and her car and her locker at the gym like a CSI guy looking for any tiny shred of evidence like a hidden phone, hidden lingerie, sex toys etc etc? Have you had her followed whenever she leaves the house? If you haven't done those things, you haven't looked. Affairs with married women do not involve months and months of candlelight dinners, walks on the beach, weekends away to mountain vineyards etc etc. Trysts with married women literally occur in minutes. 5 minutes parked in the back of the city park on the to the grocery store. Swinging by the OM's apartment for a quickie after dropping on kids at school/daycare/playdate. Stopping by a roadside motel for half an hour on the way to visit her mother. These are what the trysts of a married woman are actually like and what they actually entail. 


Additionally, the APs of MW are not looking for dutiful wife and mother of their kids. They are simply logging some extra poon so they do not care how they wait or how much time passes between encounters. They are basically going on about their regular lives and then when they get the notice she is going to pick up some potting soil at the garden center - the book the skanky little mom&pop roadside motel down the street from it. So don't think for one second that these other guys aren't licking their chops at the thought of a quick romp just because she isn't ideal marriage material. They're not looking for marriage and family life. They're looking for extra poon that doesn't cost them anything. 

"No where to go" - Look out the window. That is the rest of the world. That is where she can go. 

"Won't 'walk out' on kids" - Youre right she won't. She doesn't have to. Her parental rights will be protected and she will maintain her relationship with them even if you divorce. At absolute minimum she will get shared 50/50 custody and will thus have access to her children and maintain relationship with them as well as will have plenty of childfree time to pursue other activities, educational opportunities, seek further job opportunities, date other people etc etc. 

That's minimum. The more likely scenario is she will get a greater percentage of child custody and you get to make up the difference by paying child support. 


"Sexless Marriage" - on this note you are 100% on the money. As a mother she can live indefinitely and even forever without ever having any form of sex or intimacy with you ever again. She can and many do live out the rest of their lives never having a love and sex life with their husbands but remaining in the house to live off the H's income and resources. That happens every day throughout the whole world. You will be the one desperate and frustrated and living in misery and despair. She will be fine not having sex or intimacy with you (she may be getting it from the guy she meets in the park on her way to the grocery store......but she will be fine not getting it from you)


So the choice here really is what are you willing to live with and where do you draw the line in the sand for your own life??????


----------



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Do you intend to let your wife know that she is on a timescale. 
I think you should.


----------



## MichelleThoughts (Jun 24, 2018)

Well I don't envy you. I don't think you are making too big of a deal about the fact that you are not getting sex. I don't think I could live that way and many people cannot tolerate that.

I agree with the others that you are being too nice. You are putting yourself last and catering to her every whim it sounds like. It really sounds like she is just using you.

I grew up with parents who had a nasty divorce. My husband's parents also did. It was like a bomb to both of us. I would never wish that upon my children even though there are times when marriage is tough, so I understand why you want to stay.

Is your wife putting forth any effort here to please you? It sounds like the world revolves around her. Do you actually get mad or show how mad you are? My husband gets noticeably mad if his needs aren't being met. Your plan to keep waiting weeks and weeks sounds so passive to me. I will say that as a woman I am attracted to the go-getter attitude that my husband has.

This may sound weird but also, this is a sort of general question because I see so many posts like this on here. What would happen if you decided you wanted to have sex tonight? If I decide that I want it today, it happens today. Same with my husband. Maybe I am naive but I am like, what is going on with this? She is your WIFE! You have already proven your devotion and commitment to her. I would be pretty flipping mad to be rejected after all that. 

Honestly if I were to reject my husband whether through lack of sex, affection, love, whatever, I know that he has enough self-respect to find it. It is up to me to either provide it or understand that he will seek it elsewhere. And it goes both ways.

It sounds like right now she has a pretty sweet deal of you doing whatever she wants while she freely weighs her options. 

I don't know if that will help you at all or not. But I like some passion in a man. You sond like you are lacking that. 

Sorry if that sounds insulting. I am just trying to help you.


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Time lines for something like "love"---- ridiculous.

Oldshirt has summed up in a very lucid essay why your thinking is ILLOGICAL, so I'll leave it at that.

Just to be clear, I KNOW how painful this is. I am NOT trying to rile you or belittle you. You really just need to see how lopsided your thinking is about the woman you love. You are making every possible excuse to stay in a relationship that will always make you feel lousy. Only you can get yourself out of it. Your wife doesn't hate you. She likely even thinks you're an alright dude, and an excellent provider. However, she is not, and will likely never be---- IN LOVE WITH YOU. That's what the problem is, and most likely it can't be fixed. Keeping up the status quo dang sure won't fix it. And come labor day, you aren't going to change **** either, because you don't want to. And, if you see an attorney, you're not going to want to take the financial shaft up your rear that the divorce will give you.

Financially and for time with your kids, stay.
If you want happiness and a loving wife, leave.
Simple as that.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Andy1001 said:


> Do you intend to let your wife know that she is on a timescale.
> I think you should.


I disagree with this. 

If you give someone a 2, 6, 12 month deadline and say, "or else.." They will either pick the "or else" just to spite you and to keep from being manipulated -

Or they will suck it up and endure or even fake it until the deadline has passed and then they will go back to whatever it was they were doing or not doing beforehand. 


I think it can be OK to have a realistic timeline in your head and to have some nuts and bolts criteria that have to be met by that date as long as the timeline is reasonable. 


But I think each individual needs to have their own time scale and if the other person is no where close by that time, then it's time to pull the ejection handle. 


In this case, I think if he tells her she has to go to MC and be warm and cuddly in two months, I think she can suck it up and fake it for two months. 


(Now we can all argue if the two months is a realistic and reasonable time frame or not. But my point is any kind act like a Fairy Princess and poop golden nuggets out their butt for two months. That doesn't mean that any meaningful, permanent change has taken place or that anything will continue after the deadline has passed)


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

Tough love!

I am meeting with my IC tomorrow. He has been putting me back on the christian path which means loving unconditionally and being graceful. Obviously that is counter-intuitive to what you all are recommending.

What does she do to please me? Right now grocery shopping, cooking, laundry, and cleaning.
@MichelleThoughts what you're saying about being assertive about sex and getting mad is exactly what I have done this entire relationship. She just decided 6 weeks ago she isn't going to respond to it anymore and that it is a huge turn off. If you read the pursuer - distancer cycle you can see that I've turned her off by being all needy about it. If I played it cool and made some love deposits before she was stonewalled, she would have probably been begging me for it, but I was too busy feeling entitled to sex rather than playing the game. Even after marriage you still have to be a stud.

I will express my frustration and talk about the possibility of dropping a bomb on this. Whichever way I go it needs to be full force.


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

waynejoey said:


> Tough love!
> 
> I am meeting with my IC tomorrow. He has been putting me back on the christian path which means loving unconditionally and being graceful. Obviously that is counter-intuitive to what you all are recommending.
> 
> ...


No, she wouldn't. If she wanted sex and found you at all attractive, there would be a time in this last however many months that she'd have pulled the trigger. 
You still haven't reached acceptance. I hate that, because I know how miserable this stuff is. WHen you finally get out of it and look back, you will regret all this wasted, agonizing time you spent on working toward a losing game.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

MichelleThoughts said:


> Is your wife putting forth any effort here to please you? It sounds like the world revolves around her. Do you actually get mad or show how mad you are? My husband gets noticeably mad if his needs aren't being met. Your plan to keep waiting weeks and weeks sounds so passive to me. I will say that as a woman I am attracted to the go-getter attitude that my husband has.
> 
> 
> Honestly if I were to reject my husband whether through lack of sex, affection, love, whatever, I know that he has enough self-respect to find it. It is up to me to either provide it or understand that he will seek it elsewhere. And it goes both ways.
> ...


I do agree with this.

If you want something - strive for it. If you want something that is legal and ethical, pursue it unapologetically and without remorse or excuse. 

Having a loving and affectionate and passionate life with your spouse is reasonable, legal and highly ethical. Why are you *****footing??????

If you want it, pursue it passionately and unapologetically. 

If she does not want the same, then she can pack her crap and go. 

Or if she does not make the grade for what you need in life, then you pack your crap and go. 

I agree with all the others that both of you are making this all about her. She doesn't have the right to sit on her throne and dictate to you how life is going to be while you suffer in despair and frustration. 

Be a man and pursue your dreams and passions. She will either comply and travel that journey with you or she will opt out go her own path.

If she simply tries to life off of your shirttails without contributing, leave her along the side of the road.


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Evinrude58 said:


> Your wife is not in love with you anymore. If I had to guess, I would say there's a good chance that she's cheating, OR there has been another man in the past that she fell for and when they fall for someone else, they fall OUT of love with you. It never comes back. That's the hard thing to understand and accept--- their love will NOT return, even if they wanted it to.


Absolutely spot on. Wayne, you may as well face the reality of it my man. She's gone.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

You need a new counselor. There is nothing in the Bi me about being a door mat to your wife. She has broken her vows.

Google and research the responsibilities of a wife. Number one is she puts you before everything but God. You are distant runner up to your own kids. Speaking of which, the two of you are a horrible example of a happy couple. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. Do you want them to grow up and be in a relationship like yours?

What exactly are these issues the two of you brought into the marriage? 

Do you also work out? What do you look like physically now?


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

waynejoey said:


> I'm thinking to give this 8 more weeks. In 3 weeks she starts full-time work, which will give her a sense of self and get us back to the dynamic we had when we were in love. Then another 5 weeks for that to sink in. On that 5th week we have a couples trip planned in Vegas.
> 
> If we're not being physically intimate on a Vegas trip with all the nightlife, fancy outfits, swanky hotel room, and no kids then there is nothing that will save this marriage.
> 
> What do you guys think about that plan? Being too nice? Being too optimistic?


Personally I think you've sold yourself a load of crap. If I had to go to Vegas to get laid by my old lady, I'd stay home and find a replacement. I'd be willing to bet even if she gives it up in Vegas, after getting tanked up on fun and booze, its going to be business as usual ( or no business as usual) when you get back home. I'd even bet you don't get to tap it more than one time during the trip.


----------



## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

So, her working out, her getting a new job, her distancing herself from you physically - All of these are typically red flags that may mean EITHER there is someone else (may not have done anything, may just be EA, may be PA, may just be an attraction) or she is working her plan to leave you. Please don't be too complacent in this -- you may want to investigate her email/phone/facebook/etc. a bit more if you can. Also, a VAR where she normally talks on the phone or in her car. If nothing, then great you can rule it out, but it also may give you more info about why she is feeling the way she does (if she talks on the phone to friend/family).

"I'm thinking to give this 8 more weeks. In 3 weeks she starts full-time work, which will give her a sense of self and get us back to the dynamic we had when we were in love. Then another 5 weeks for that to sink in. On that 5th week we have a couples trip planned in Vegas."

I think your plans are ok, but definitely have an end date in your own mind where if things don't start happening from her side, you will work your OWN plan for getting out. Doesn't mean you have to leave in 8 weeks, but you need to wrap your mind around the fact that at that point, your marriage is probably over an d you will need to actively work your plan for getting out. You may even want to talk to a lawyer or two NOW just to see what options you have, what will happen if you go forward, etc.. This doesn't mean file now -- just get information for yourself so you can plan accordingly. No marriage will work if only ONE side of the marriage actually wants to work at it.

"She has told her own family on multiple occasions and me that she does not want to be divorced. She even got mad that someone even brought up the thought, but again that is just words."
She may just be doing that as a setup/backgroup, so if YOU decide to D, then YOU become the bad guy to everyone -- she may just be to cowardly to D you herself and is just waiting for you to pull the plug.

"We did just have a pretty decent family vacation and got along pretty well. Towards the end my wife was really engaging with me at the theme park and grabbing my arm a couple times and what not. But when we got back home, a little bit of the negative energy / boredom seemed to come back."
It sounds a bit that you are grasping at straws here -- that she gives you a little, and you take that to be a whole lot. I DO understand that -- you want to get back to when you were "good" in the marriage. Do you go out on 1x1 dates with her? Do you take her places JUST the two of you to do things (even if it's just shopping together)? I'm not sure you can get her to re-engage, but these are just some ideas -- you need to have her realize that YOUR MARRIAGE is more important that the kids, her job, her .... --- if she's not willing for that to be the case, then you have your answer. She may just want out and is biding her time to get her ducks in a row. I DO hope that you can work things out, but I'm pointing out items so that YOU don't get blindsided.

"I was also thinking about casually meeting some women through social dating apps, not to physically cheat, but just to get to know more people and have some of the opposite sex on my team. Do you think that is pushing it too far? If my wife was doing that I would flip out, but I feel like a double standard is in order. I'm not the one who took sex away."

DO NOT DO THIS. This is cheating, and I don't care if "she started it by taking sex away". If you go that route, a)YOU will be the cheater and the bad guy to everyone, and b) YOU WILL be a CHEATER -- in your own head, you will know this for the rest of your life -- do you really want that? If you are at this point where you want to date other women, then get divorced and you can date all you want after that happens.


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

@jlg07 i think this is really helpful. you are right I am being too much of a punk which is really not like me at all, its time to toughen up

i think i'll start a conversation about uncontested divorce to see if she is in agreement as to how we will separate. then at least i can find out if she is going to battle me or back down. so far every time i threaten divorce she backs down and gives me what i want, although I haven't threatened divorce in order to get sex, that seems sort of abusive, but whatever its her problem not mine. and what she is doing is equally abusive.
@Chaparral yes I work out too, I'm in better shape than her @ 13% bodyfat, but she has genetic gifts of big boobs, small waist, and long slender legs. even barely working out she can get a lot of attention if she wants it. as for the issues we brought into the marriage, we always quarreled about sex frequency and were never good communicators

i guess we were both just stupid that jumped into this thinking kids and houses would make it better. our life has been one band-aid after another. she is only ever happy when we're vacationing and doing cool stuff.

time to get a divorce lawyer and fire my IC!


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

Oh regarding the questions about cheating / snooping, let me answer those

So I thought I had caught her cheating a few months ago because she was doing a lot of long phone calls with the baseball coach. I drilled into the whole thing from several angles and I can tell you with a pretty strong amount of confidence that there was no PA. Because she was attention seeking, perhaps it was borderline EA, but honestly I think the guy is totally clueless, he is sort of a doof.

When I confronted her it blew up in my face as if I was the psycho, but she backed down and agreed with my line of thinking. As far as I know the calls stopped, but that doesn't mean she isn't using something like WhatsApp. Even her family told her it wasn't acceptable, and of course I lost points for talking to them, but hey, I was desperate and angry.

Fast forward to now, there have been a couple occasions where she has left me with her phone, I would think she wouldn't do that if she was hiding something. She is like super-attached to the phone though and shes doing stuff on it constantly. I've been monitoring websites from my home network and it appears she is mostly looking baseball crap for her son, which she is totally infatuated with as a hobby.

Unfortunatley my monitoring software can't detect app usage, so there is a chance she is doing something inappropriate on snapchat or whatsapp.

As for facebook and instagram, she still likes all my family's postings and has a profile that says crap like how amazing her husband is.

I guess she is just a fake a** lying b**** and I should just kick her to the curb either way.


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

The flags just keep coming.


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

i know... the mother of my kids. argh...

there is one thing peculiar i caught in my monitoring logs, she is checking out some home schooling website, which is very weird given she is 3 weeks from starting a f/t job.

her cousin has 5 kids across 3 men and basically stays home, homeschooling the kids living off child support

eventually a couple of the husbands took significant legal action and some of the kids were taken away from her

i feel this is who she gets her inspiration from, another liar that makes bad decisions


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

So what are the positive qualities of your wife?

She sounds pretty bad.

And she is cheating.
Just because you haven’t caught it, doesn’t mean it’s not happening.

Where there’s smoke, there’s fire.
Lots and lots of smoke around your wife.


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

she is fun to be around and outgoing, she forces me out of my shell, she is a real guy's gal - she's into college football, flexible about music / movies / food, we're both christian although we're doing an awful job of being good christians right now, shes a good mom most of the time except when she loses her temper, we volunteer at the church together watching the kids that is enjoyable, we have the same taste in friends and social scenes, she is an awesome travel buddy and really good an planning trips, when she was in love her affection was very exciting and enjoyable

like i said most of what i post is probably negative because i'm focusing on these things i can't control as the pursuer and I can't barely make it 6 weeks without chasing her or chasing some other girl, I haven't been single in the last 14 years, I need a woman's touch. Is that a fair expectation or do I need to get some self-control?


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

waynejoey said:


> What does she do to please me? Right now grocery shopping, cooking, laundry, and cleaning.


She would be doing those things whether you are around or not. 

In other words all she is doing is throwing another pork chop in the pan and washing an extra pair of socks in the laundry.

And all of those are things you can do for yourself.


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

With a job offer letter in her hand, how she is having second thoughts because its a long drive.

What in the hell is this girl up to!!

I'm working on getting some lawyer advice to see if I should wait until she starts her first stay before I threaten divorce as a way to avoid any alimony.


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

She sounds like she has led a life with little real interest in a careeer


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

waynejoey said:


> If we're not being physically intimate on a Vegas trip with all the nightlife, fancy outfits, swanky hotel room, and no kids *then there is nothing that will save this marriage.*
> 
> What do you guys think about that plan? Being too nice? Being too optimistic?


***face palm****

Sounds like you are already planning out your self-fulfilling prophecy of an argument with your wife for when nothing happens. 

How about trying to exercise/workout together?

Regards,
Badsanta


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

That is true, and I didn't marry her for a career. My career is big enough for the both of us. In fact I'd be fine downsizing a little and just letting her stay at home, if she would just freaking love me. When she switched to stay at home mom I thought she would be a lot less stressed and that we would spend more time together, but it ended up being just the opposite.

I will honestly give her whatever she wants, but she doesn't know what to ask for and is all whacked out on this midlife crisis.

The one thing I won't give her is to allow her to disrespect me or use sex as a weapon. I'm an A+ I can get anyone I want. My girls are super cute, in good shape, big paycheck, and good looking. If she can't see that oh well. Her family thinks shes nuts, because she is living on the lap of luxury and acting like a total tool.


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

badsanta said:


> ***face palm****
> 
> Sounds like you are already planning out your self-fulfilling prophecy of an argument with your wife for when nothing happens.
> 
> ...


Yea as we have concluded in previous threads, my plan is lame. But hey you have to start with a strawman and then work your way into the real plan.

I went to her gym class once, I really enjoyed it. We can't really work out together because someone has to watch the kids, so we often take turns so each of us can get our work in.

The problem here is we're far beyond dating. She does not want to spend quality time with me. The MC told us to go do our own things for 3 weeks, do 3 sessions of IC, then come back to MC.

So what the team is telling me here is that waiting the full 3 weeks = me being a doormat, and I should go get what I want because I can.

On the other hand you have self-improvement books telling you not to rely on others for happiness. Well how the hell can you rely on yourself when intimacy makes you happy? I can't do that by myself!


----------



## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Waynejoey, take your time with this and make sure you think things through and that you have a solid plan to move forward (and plan for all contingencies -- with OR without her).
Just doesn't seem to make sense that she keeps you in limbo. I haven't read all of your threads yet, so I don't know the story behind WHY she is acting like this. Sounds from your one post that you used to have a great marriage, and still do have some good things going on, but a LOT of unresolved issues here. 

Again, do what's best for YOU, then your children, and THEN her. Try to do this objectively and without emotion (yeah, I know....) and try to get in your head what you want.

Sorry you are going through all of this.


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Few people are built to be good stay at home spouses.
Most people need to keep their mind busy and need social interaction.
Idle hands......


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Being single beats he hell out of what you’re ire getting.
Doesn’t want quality time with you????

What’s left here?


----------



## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

"So what the team is telling me here is that waiting the full 3 weeks = me being a doormat, and I should go get what I want because I can."
You don't need to do this -- start working on YOU. Be more self-reliant. Do things YOU want/need to do. You don't need to be there to be walked on.

Let HER start realizing what she won't have with you gone...


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

jlg07 said:


> "So what the team is telling me here is that waiting the full 3 weeks = me being a doormat, and I should go get what I want because I can."
> You don't need to do this -- start working on YOU. Be more self-reliant. Do things YOU want/need to do. You don't need to be there to be walked on.
> 
> Let HER start realizing what she won't have with you gone...


This is essentially the 180. As a pursuer it is darn near impossible to stick to it because I demand results.
https://www.gottman.com/blog/how-to-avoid-the-pursuer-distancer-pattern-in-your-relationship/

And if she is going to use intimacy as her weapon, then we have no certainty that she won't do this again 5 years from now, 10 years from now.

It is also hard to 180 when you have kids. I have to either get her to agree to babysit, wait for them to go to sleep, or abandon everyone. That being said, I'm meeting up with a volleyball group tomorrow and she had 0 issues with it. Probably so she can snapchat naked pics with her secret boyfriend while I'm gone, lol, just kidding (or maybe not).

I just don't seem to have the stamina to stay self-reliant any longer. I want to go on a date. And if not with my wife, with someone else.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

waynejoey said:


> On the other hand you have self-improvement books telling you not to rely on others for happiness. Well how the hell can you rely on yourself when intimacy makes you happy? I can't do that by myself!


Even if you had the house all to yourself scheduled to coincide with a few packages arriving from Amazon prime for some wild/crazy self exploration? 

If you want to get some ideas just go onto Amazon and pay very close attention to "Customers Also Purchased" for nefarious items and ask yourself how some of those things when used in combination will make for some serious bonanzas. 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Have you tried *The 180*?


----------



## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

oldshirt said:


> Wow. That is one of the biggest examples of self-delusion I have seen here.
> 
> It's amazing how much mental gymnastics someone can do to convince themselves of what they want to believe.
> 
> ...


You're being very passive. I strongly advise you have her followed when she goes to the gym. If I had to bet, she may have had something going with another dad of a kid on the team or a coach that you caught her texting and calling. 

You think she doesn't have the time? See how well it was described above. I'm telling you, that is exactly how it is. The wife that you think you have to wine & dine with a fancy trip to Vegas in the hopes to get some duty sex, can end up being like the typical WW that will give a BJ to completion in the back seat of a car to some dude she barely knows after a couple of weeks of hearing him pump her head up with compliments of how hot she is. 

I'm telling you, better wake up.


----------



## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Unfortunately men like the OP seldom if ever wake up.


----------



## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

WJ. Aside from everything going on I'm telling you brother you biggest issue is consistency. You are not going so many different directions at the drop of a hat you are going a million miles an hour when you change course. You go from 180, to thinking you need to pursue to thinking about seeing other women in the same week. 

I think like me, you read too many things that offer many different strategies. I know how hard it can be when nothing is getting results and you are pulling your hair out but maybe there's a bigger issue here on your own end. Have you had problems with focus or concentrating before marriage in other aspects of life?

I get dizzy reading these posts and it's the same stuff each time. It's seems like there's a lot of oversimplification going on here. I don't have the answers but the books and strategies that you are trying, as I did, are just covering up the facts. For whatever reason, she is done but wants the easy way out, for you to call it a game so she doesn't have to. 

It's time to be as Frank as possible and don't sugar coat what you hear. Ask her if she wants to make this work, ask for her most honest answer and be prepared for what you don't want to hear. When she tells you. Then work with her on an amicable split. 

She wants out but I'm more concerned for you. I think you need to step up the IC and build the most honest with your own self possible. I hate this saying but if it's meant to be, you will eventually find your way back to each other even though the odds are against it if you guys continue with your own baggage.


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

Had a tough conversation with my counselor, basically told him that this is unacceptable and it is time for me to give my wife the ultimatum. He was in full agreement (obviously), and he offered some additional advice of how to proceed. He doesn't advocate divorce, but he accepts that I'm in a very difficult position and he is dedicated to help me get to my destination as efficiently as possible.

I'm going to tell her how this situation makes me feel and that it is untenable.
I will re-assure her that I really don't want this and would rather work it out and I miss what we had, but because there is no positive change, I must move towards my own happiness which means divorce.
I will supply her with a draft of what an uncontested divorce looks like, provide her the steps she needs to live independently, and offer to help her through this process. She has been fake to me because she was terrified I would leave her, so I'm hoping this statement puts her at ease if she really does want out.
Then I will sit back and let her actions do the speaking.

I don't plan to prescribe her the answers. I want her real true actions to be the outcome, if she decides to pursue me.

I don't plan to be angry or resentful. I plan to be loving and graceful until the end.

Thanks guys for being hard on me, but in hindsight I'm still happy that I gave her space and stopped chasing. I feel like I did the noble thing here. Instead of throwing TVs through the wall and going out cheating, I let her have her way and backed off. I'm still seeking God's divine intervention and trying to be the best Christian I can in all of this, but as you all know I can't toss and turn every night with knots in my stomach.

I will let the team know how this turns out! Wish me luck, or if you're the praying type, include me!


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

Here is the update - 

Early in the week I told her this situation is untolerable and handed her a print out of draft uncontested divorce terms. She began the let's talk conversation all high and mighty, but once she read how the terms could work she broke down into some of the deepest crying I've ever seen her do.

I wish I could have positioned it more gracefully, but it was impossible for me to take the teeth out of it. Eventually I left the room.

She pursued me throughout the house to further the conversation, this time more constructively. I took the lead as the head of the household to suggest next steps. I let her know that just being cordial to me is not proper engagement and that it won't rebuild intimacy. Then I sent her a list of quality time that we will spend from here on out (QT is her #1 love language). For example, breakfast together, engaging in meaningful conversation throughout the day, doing activities with the kids, dates several times throughout the week, getting the toddler out of our bed, sleeping in the same bed, and sitting next to me purposefully instead of trying to be across the room.

I also sent her a list of things she could do for me in my love languages as long as they weren't outside of her boundaries. She is still not ready for touching or sex obviously. It was mostly about words of affirmation, which is one of my #1 LL, and something she has historically not been good at.

She has agreed to all the things and we have been really engaging over the last several days. We're making eye contact, holding lots of conversations, and doing a lot of activities together.

According to Dr. Lee Baucum intamacy is blocked by 1. not making connections, 2. resentment, 3. another relationship

After additional spying I can tell all the people that suggested she is cheating are 100% wrong, let's leave that side.

As for resentment, I believe this is fading. I made a list of all the stuff she warned me about the last 3 years and handed it to her on a paper. She didn't seem to even care about talking about it anymore, I hope she is past it.

So that leaves us with not making connection, which I believe is what we screwed up the last few years with all the kids and overworking stuff.

Anyone who has been through this that has cool ideas on how to connect, send them on over. I've got a boatload of activities planned for us so we never get bored!!!

This woman does not want a divorce and she is really working with the counselor to find out what the heck is blocking the intimacy. We still need more time.

Finally, we're not fighting anymore and she has really controlled her temper tantrums and hypercritical tendencies. I've done the same on my end.


----------



## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

This will end horribly. Don't you dare take your foot off the gas and relax for one second. Watch your back, my man.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

waynejoey said:


> Here is the update -
> 
> Early in the week I told her this situation is untolerable and handed her a print out of draft uncontested divorce terms. She began the let's talk conversation all high and mighty, but once she read how the terms could work she broke down into some of the deepest crying I've ever seen her do.
> 
> ...


I'm so glad you have a plan. And as a woman I think you have a decent plan. I particularly like that you set forth positive steps like talking dating and getting the kid out without just demanding sex. Of course as her husband you deserve sex but when you demand it or else it often doesn't go well. 

I've never been where you are but I think it is a good plan. Did your counselor help with it?


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

waynejoey said:


> Here is the update -
> 
> Early in the week I told her this situation is untolerable and handed her a print out of draft uncontested divorce terms. She began the let's talk conversation all high and mighty, but once she read how the terms could work she broke down into some of the deepest crying I've ever seen her do.
> 
> ...


Biding her time to pull you back so she gets what she wants which right now does not include you.


----------



## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> Do you intend to let your wife know that she is on a timescale.
> I think you should.


If you tell her she has a deadline to change, don't tell her when time is up. If she knows the deadline, she will likely change by that time then go back to normal afterwards. If she doesn't know the deadline she will probably think she has more time than she does. If she doesn't bother changing because she thinks the deadline is farther out, you will know she really doesn't care.


----------



## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

You said she puts the kids' needs first. I believe you. She wants to make a comfy nest for all of them and herself. So you hand her some papers that say that draw up a plan for the nest to be ripped from under her. What does she do? Cry deeply about the potential loss of the nest and make whatever deal she can to keep the nest. But are you anything more than the guy who keeps the nest intact for her? It sounds like you're just a means to her ends. Sure, she can play act as long as necessary to keep the charade going. But will you be happy being a character in her play?


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

Tatsuhiko said:


> You said she puts the kids' needs first. I believe you. She wants to make a comfy nest for all of them and herself. So you hand her some papers that say that draw up a plan for the nest to be ripped from under her. What does she do? Cry deeply about the potential loss of the nest and make whatever deal she can to keep the nest. But are you anything more than the guy who keeps the nest intact for her? It sounds like you're just a means to her ends. Sure, she can play act as long as necessary to keep the charade going. But will you be happy being a character in her play?


Will I be happy? Not perpetually. This isn't a christian thing to say, but there is probably a time component to this. I read a few weeks ago that resentment takes 1-2 months to heal per year of marriage. Since the bulk of the issues have been 2-3 years, we're looking at 3-6 months in my estimation. It's been about 6 weeks or so, and some of our negative behaviors have had us going 2 steps forward and 1 step back.

She knows this arrangement can't go on forever, but what kind of Christian man would I be if I abandoned my wife who has been faithful, and is just struggling with intimacy (and possibly depression). I ignored the signs and felt entitled, this is my cross to bear too.

1 Corinthians Chapter 7
"Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, wso that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."

Someone asked what she has done to self-improve. A lot I'd say. More work then I'd ever seen her do. She got her butt in the gym and stopped laying in bed whining about being fat, she got a job and stopped whining about not contributing, she is going to counseling and makes her own appointments without me forcing her, she stopped numbing herself with reality TV and other distractions.

To the people who said it will go back to normal, or I'm just a plan B. So what? At least I'll know that I did everything I could, that I became a better person, and that I gave it all for my kids. Now if we get to Christmas and this is still going on, well then I think we have a situation of uneven yoke.

In the case of uneven yoke, the non-believer will remove themselves from the situation, which is an ungodly thing to do. When this happens the bible says "let them go".

There is a testimony of a man who was married for more than a decade and had a divorce. He met a new woman and started a new walk in life. He has been to different churches telling his story, the first marriage was preparing him for his real wife, they have been together now for 24 years.

I'm prepared for both outcomes and I'm working to keep the stamina to continue. To the folks in the divorce camp, I'll keep you posted so you can add this to your sample size of troubled marriages. If I'm successful, it will generate a new school of thought. If not, then you can have the satisfaction of "i told you so".


----------



## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Are you the only Christian in this relationship?


----------



## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Yes. He's the only only one in this so called "Christian relationship". Let him keep quoting as many bible verses as he can find. Let's see where will those verses get him in the long run.


----------



## MichelleThoughts (Jun 24, 2018)

The mention of feeling entitled to have sex with your wife is really weird to me. I always assumed that the willingness to provide sex was part of the marriage agreement and neither spouse should have to feel like they have to earn that from the other person. Shouldn't you be free from the hassles of dating and hoping, guessing the other person's interest level, and trying so hard to impress one another?

I didn't realize this feeling of having to earn sex while already married was a thing until I started reading threads on here.

To the OP, I think it is admirable you want to stay with your wife, but I do think you are making a lot of excuses for her. I don't know what I would do if I were you but I feel actually a bit impatient for you to take more action with your wife, even if it is just communicating to her about your issues you have with her more clearly.


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

Regarding the christian question, yes we both share the same beliefs and go to church together. Not to keep score, but it seems at this time I'm the stronger one in the word, so maybe that helps with any confusion. I think part of this trial is to get her to surrender as well. Otherwise she'll never make it in this world.

I'm not sure I understand your question Michelle. When the husband doesn't serve the wife, she can be left with an empty love tank, thus not wanting to provide anything in return. It can go in the other direction too. If both parties were doing what they were supposed to there wouldn't be issues, but we're human. I've spent too much time being demanding and dismissive. Now I have to reverse it.

At this time we are very clear on the issues, so now we're just healing day to day. I think we're past the resentment stage.

We had a breakthrough yesterday. Without asking for it, she told me she had a fun day, and then followed up with "this was a good day". It was very sincere. She has been engaging with me each day more and more, and offering words of affirmation without me asking for it. This hasn't happened in years.

If this pattern sticks, we're going to get to the finish line on this thing. Go back to my original threads and see where worldly advice got me. Every time I try to do this on my own in a sinful way I'm left anxious, alone, depressed. Every time I give it to God a weight is lifted.

This is my testimony.


----------



## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

Well, from my perspective, the moons seem to have aligned with what the OP currently thinks he wants. He has invested much time reading, questioning, vacillating too. There have been anxiety and gut feelings and he doesn't want to be caught unawares.

It is important to remember that she is only happy when you are on vacations or doing cool stuff (#22 post). Quality time and connection are most important to her.

Your Christian beliefs are a paramount portion of who you are and what you are most comfortable with. Just remember if this doesn't work for you, TAM is here.


----------



## MichelleThoughts (Jun 24, 2018)

Waynejoey, I mean that your demands as a husband, demands for intimacy, affection and sex, are totally normal expectations. The fact that she is refusing these things is a problem. You shouldn't have to try so hard to get them as you have already married her.

I have learned through TAM that situations like this aren't uncommon but I don't think it is normal or healthy. If my husband treated me like how your wife treats you in spite of all the efforts you seem to be putting forth, I would have already had heart-to-heart talks about why he continues to live with me in this form of "marriage," if he is already seeing someone else, and what to do from now on, as continuing in the present state of the relationship simply would not be acceptable to me.

We have kids and I would hate to do that to kids, so in that area I agree with you. But clearly your wife sees that you are trying, right? Shouldn't she be giving some affection back to you? You said she doesn't even touch you. What happens if you touch her? 

There was one bad fight my husband and I had where I was angry and said something about how I would just pull away from him and we would just stay in the house for the kids. He immediately reacted like, "no way will I tolerate a loveless marriage." And I knew he meant it. He will not live his life without romantic love. In my husband's case, he would leave if presented with the choice of an unaffectionate marriage vs staying. In your case, if your wife is a Christian, the Bible is very clear about being affectionate with spouses as a very important aspect of marriage. 

So to me, this waiting around seems very passive. The fact that you are so excited about a small comment of appreciation is pretty amazing to me too. Maybe things will worl out for you in the end. But I do wonder what the heck is going on in her mind myself. Have you asked her about her plans and what she wants in the future?


----------



## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

waynejoey said:


> Hey all, here goes a status update with a dash of insecurity and a sprinkle of hope. It just helps to get other perspectives as I march through this.
> 
> If you've been following you know that our marriage went downhill after the 2nd kid came. She is struggling with what I believe to be a mixture of midlife crisis (MLC), post-partum depression, and walk away wife syndrome (see divorce busting website). I am struggling with pursuer - distancer, where I've chased / demanded for sex for many years. I can't compete with the memory of who she fell in love with, which was when we were 2 young 30 somethings with plenty of discretionary money and were vacationing a lot. Now we're older doing the day-to-day with the kids.
> 
> ...


Well changed because I read to the last page. 

I would have given her the divorce papers when she said she wanted out. 

Then have waited for her reaction. 

Cheating? Only she knows. There have been many Christian husbands and wives to do so. They real good at keeping it to themselves also.


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

Couple more status updates for you.

My anxiety hasn't really come back since that one day last week. Since I prayed on it and made small steps each day, it has really taken a back seat. Feeling pretty good. This is what we call spiritual warfare. Whenever things are going good a little devil on my shoulder tempts me about stupid alternatives like leaving, having an affair, going back to being pushy, or whatever. Each day I get better at dealing with that temptation by praying on it, being strong, and then it goes away.
@MichelleThoughts - While I understand that some women understand that a man is going to demand his intimacy, I believe this is a price I have to pay for neglecting her feedback for the last 3 years. My wife grew up in a household where feelings were not shared. She learned this poor behavior from her mother. Through the power of individual counseling, she is overcoming it, so things are out in the open and we can deal with them. I have blame for being so pushy about sex for so many years and not offering her any quality time in return. And while it took both of us to fail, I'm willing to accept my portion of the burden, even if that means no sex for another month or two while we rebuild what we had.

Each day we continue to spend more quality time together and have more deliberate conversations. Things are becoming less one-way. Last night after watching an hour of TV, she initiated a conversation about her childhood. We talked for like an hour, it was incredible. We started to understand more about each other's background and how that influences our feelings today.

Next up I'm going to softly introduce some basic non-threatening touching. I have a couple techniques in mind as to how I'll do this. I just have to be stoic and remember to walk at her pace.


----------



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I don't get this. I really don't. 

My wife and I have our share of issues. She is a quality time person. I am crappy at talking/listening. I am a physical touch person.

We have our issues and can go a period of time with no sex, not talking. Just being grumpy with each other. It can go on for a week or two.

But when we make up, we make up. It results in spending time together. Talking. Golfing. Shopping. Landscaping, watching TV. But spending time together leads to passion. We have been married for over 30 years, but when we are getting along. We feel passion for each other. We have great sex and love to lay in bed and hold each other.

It seems like you two are friends if you work at it. But the friendship isn't naturally leading to passion. It should not take weeks and weeks of getting along to lead to physical love. It should only take a few days at most.


----------



## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

"Next up I'm going to softly introduce some basic non-threatening touching. I have a couple techniques in mind as to how I'll do this. I just have to be stoic and remember to walk at her pace."


---You've been walking in her pace for quite some time....Nuff Said.


You need to 180. Get out of your own shadow and start some self lovin'. I feel you are just throwing gas on a fire that is content on consuming this whole relationship. Really, being with a partner in love and respect isn't THAT difficult. She is laying landmines to keep you spinning and off balanced. I'm surprised her counselling hasn't called her out on this.

As of now, you would do her some good if you just called her your "roommate". Start mentioning that to people from now on. Because a marriage this ain't. And if you find comfort in the NT for your troubles...Fine, just be sure do it for you. Not your WW.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I've experienced this with my wife... when I threatened D, she said she would do anything to keep the family together and she did. Now that we only have one teenager left at home (and she will soon go to uni), she's dumped me... by suggesting a sexless marriage. She doesn't need me any more, so there you go...


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

waynejoey said:


> Couple more status updates for you.
> 
> My anxiety hasn't really come back since that one day last week. Since I prayed on it and made small steps each day, it has really taken a back seat. Feeling pretty good. This is what we call spiritual warfare. Whenever things are going good a little devil on my shoulder tempts me about stupid alternatives like leaving, having an affair, going back to being pushy, or whatever. Each day I get better at dealing with that temptation by praying on it, being strong, and then it goes away.
> 
> ...


That quote in bold pretty much sums things up. You can't even touch your wife without fear. You talk to her for an hour and think the world just tipped on edge, dumping glory and gold on your whole existence. "deliberate conversations"????

I really think you are working like a slave at this relationship. And although I wish you were right that this is something you can "fix", I can almost guarantee you are going to need that miracle from above to salvage this. I think it's past saving. Your wife is acting. She's not going to change. She doesn't want to. It doesn't matter how much effort you make. One can't make someone else love us. It just doesn't work like that.

Some of the things you're trying like talking and spending time together SHOULD be the right thing to do. I hope it works out for you. The thing is, you're dealing with a woman's emotions. They're as unpredictable as the wind in some ways, as predictable as the tide on others. What I find predictable is that once the love switch is off, it STAYS off. No matter what, no matter the effort or what the person changes about themselves, it's staying off.


----------



## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

I'll be honest - i think OP is doing his best to save this marriage and maybe it's worth the 3-6 months to find out. That's not terribly long time in the scheme of things. Honestly he sounds like a great guy doing everything he can to save this thing. That said it seems entirely one-sided and if it takes the threat of divorce (and lost provisioning for her) to get any movement at all then it's probably fair to say that it has been over for a long time. She's not checked out - she's gone.

She's fed you 'reasons' for her behavior for 3 years and didn't care to discuss anymore? It is and always has been trip wire for you to rationalize her lack of love and desire. These steps you've proposed and her agreement to follow? More trip wire and time bought to delay the inevitable. All of this is completely within her frame with the goal of appeasing or fixing her desire issues. Bending over backward to appease, acknowledging that it was your mistakes causing this and threats/ultimatums only serve to destroy whatever desire and respect she might have, even if it buys short term compliance. You simply can't negotiate desire. 

OP - *YOU* are the prize here. Always remember that. You deserve better or a partner who is fighting as hard as you. Great idea on always improving but make sure you're also preparing yourself for life without this woman. Best of luck!


----------



## Trident (May 23, 2018)

waynejoey said:


> That is true, and I didn't marry her for a career. My career is big enough for the both of us.


Not when you're paying up to 75% in child and spousal support and also trying to cover a roof over your own head. 



waynejoey said:


> In fact I'd be fine downsizing a little and just letting her stay at home,


Good because that's probably what's going to happen. Mom gets house and kids and support, Dad gets visitation and pays most of his income in support oftentimes while watching the guy she cheated on him with, moving into his home and basically replacing him as a major parental figure.

Expect her to not take the new job. She'll provide an excuse such as "they found a more qualified candidate" or "they are laying people off". Having a job won't benefit her financially in a divorce. Plan on pulling the plug as soon as she tells you this. To stay a minute longer is a fools game. Of course don't tell her it's over. You need to prepare.


----------



## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> I've experienced this with my wife... when I threatened D, she said she would do anything to keep the family together and she did. Now that we only have one teenager left at home (and she will soon go to uni), she's dumped me... by suggesting a sexless marriage. She doesn't need me any more, so there you go...


How mercenary.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Decorum said:


> How mercenary.


Funnily enough, this is my conclusion too... :laugh:


----------



## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

I have not posted in a while to WJ's posts because I really didn't know what to say anymore but I agree with BigDigg above. I think he needs to try this and see it through. It is probably too late, it may very well be but my biggest concern with WJ from the prior posts are the strategies and mindsets that are all over the map and change on a whim (180 to affection, to a little bit of affection, to he would feel better if he went out and messed around with someone else, you name it). I got a sense from this last post he may be shoring up things and focusing on a central strategy and trying as hard as he can to stick with it.

WJ, this is it. You found what you are going to do and you are seeing it through. You have to stick with this and not waver, no matter her reactions, her emotions, etc. You have got to go with this for a few months to show the consistency to her and your own psyche. If her issue with you is the resentment and the inconsistencies of the past, she will eventually start to see it and come around in a few months but if the issues are something else, like being problems with her all along or if there is someone else, it won't matter what you have done and tried.

BUT, BUT, with this last push, you will have given it all and done your part that anyone could ask or hope for, for someone trying to save a marriage. GOOD LUCK!


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Trident said:


> Mom gets house and kids and support, Dad gets visitation and pays most of his income in support oftentimes while watching the guy she cheated on him with, moving into his home and basically replacing him as a major parental figure.


Can you get divorced by the end of the calendar year? After 2018, alimony / support payments to the ex-spouse are no longer deductible to the payer. So to add insult to injury, you will be paying income tax on money you give your ex-wife!


----------



## Rick Blaine (Mar 27, 2017)

Waynejoey,

I've read through this entire thread, and here is my view of the situation, which I will break down into two parts.

PART I
I am glad that you finally have a concrete plan. The best part of the plan is that it has clear benchmarks and your strategies revolve around meeting each other's needs. Spending quality time together is vital. One well-known marriage therapist suggests 15 hours a week of time together giving each other undivided attention--kids or no kids. And remember, your kids are better off if you're in a happy marriage. Since you make good money, it's time to hire an au pair so that you can work out together, eat dinners together WITHOUT KIDS once a week, and go out on SCHEDULED mini moons. Calendars these events so they are frequent enough to keep the flame burning. These don't take the place of family vacations with the kids (family time with kids is, of course, still paramount), but they do take you both away from the daily routines that make marriage mundane. Sounds like your wife can't compartmentalize. She can't be in a romantic situation if it's not separate from the daily family routine. That's a red flag imo. Mine was like that and after about 8 years or so of just sliding by she left me for a fantasy life free of all of the mundane burdens and responsibilities of family life. She went out to other countries to eat, pray, and love. I hope yours isn't of the same ilk. But I commend you for trying your best to fix this, and I hope that you schedule in the time for quality time and the plan works.

When you first met what was sex like for the two of you? Were you able to meet her needs in bed? Have you discussed this? Maybe you need to see a sex therapist? Seeing a sex therapist should be a part of your action plan. 

PART II
If time elapses and you don't get the results you are looking for, then I hope you will listen to what others here are telling you. It may seem like the readers here just type up quick answers to a problem that you've been struggling with for years. Just understand that most of us who post here have experienced similar issues, have been put through the wringer by them, and have come out the other side wiser for it. 

Your situation worries me because your wife isn't interested in meeting your needs, and that is a fundamental, no-brainer aspect of any marriage. Marriage is a sacrifice, which means giving up smaller things for the greater good. It's give-and-take, and your wife isn't giving that which you need most. 

Finally, you spurned the No More Mr. Nice Guy approach, and I believe you need to rethink this. Yes, you have a Christian obligation to try and save your marriage, but part of that effort requires you to be the most attractive option for your wife. Being too nice and unassertive isn't attractive. Being there unconditionally won't make her love you, it will push her further away. I am glad you are finally coming around to seeing this, but I encourage you to have the conviction to pull the trigger, following through with your convictions, if this plan doesn't work out. What is your deadline?


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

I took off a couple days to let things simmer and also got a couple of other external opinions. Most of the comments since last post I mostly agree with. Am I working harder? Yes probably but that is ok with me. Is it fair? No life isn't fair. Should I be ready to move on as well? Yes, I have a good idea of what divorce looks like, I'm pretty well prepared.

There does seem to be a consensus that I'm still in a legitimate timeframe as we're still under the 3 month mark. Even if we broke up on the spot during our first major fight back in May, it would have still been 3 months for me at a minimum to find a new intimate partner, so the sunk time is what it is.

Her mood has been very steady day to day and she is smiling at me a lot and laughing. Some of the posts other members left assume my wife is some calculating break up artist, but they aren't close enough to the situation to understand the truth. She really does just fly by the seat of her pants, whatever she is feeling that day.

I do also agree I need to turn up the pressure with the non-touching. When I look back at my progress since May, it is pretty significant, so I think I did the right thing using baby steps. I'm looking at late July / Early Aug to introduce basic touching, and sex by the end of August. She will not know this timeframe. I have given her a list of fun dates to pick out to keep her on her toes where we'll get a babysitter for.

If my timeframe is not met by end of August, I will basically do the 180 and simultaneously file for divorce and start dating other people.

I don't think now is the time for 180, that will make things worse @stillfightingforus. But when I'm ready to check out, that is the time to do it, because it will be genuine.

The other thing I'll point out is that I'm happy in all other aspects of the marriage, so that is the other thing that makes this worth fighting for.

Thanks all!


----------



## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

waynejoey said:


> I took off a couple days to let things simmer and also got a couple of other external opinions. Most of the comments since last post I mostly agree with. Am I working harder? Yes probably but that is ok with me. Is it fair? No life isn't fair. Should I be ready to move on as well? Yes, I have a good idea of what divorce looks like, I'm pretty well prepared.
> 
> There does seem to be a consensus that I'm still in a legitimate timeframe as we're still under the 3 month mark. Even if we broke up on the spot during our first major fight back in May, it would have still been 3 months for me at a minimum to find a new intimate partner, so the sunk time is what it is.
> 
> ...


Didn't say to do the 180 just want you to be consistent with whatever you are going with and it seems like you are a lot more focused and not all over the map like you were which is good.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

waynejoey said:


> I took off a couple days to let things simmer and also got a couple of other external opinions. Most of the comments since last post I mostly agree with. Am I working harder? Yes probably but that is ok with me. Is it fair? No life isn't fair. Should I be ready to move on as well? Yes, I have a good idea of what divorce looks like, I'm pretty well prepared.
> 
> There does seem to be a consensus that I'm still in a legitimate timeframe as we're still under the 3 month mark. Even if we broke up on the spot during our first major fight back in May, it would have still been 3 months for me at a minimum to find a new intimate partner, so the sunk time is what it is.
> 
> ...


Goodness, you are working so hard. I do applaud you for this. 

I really hope your plan works out for you.

Just do this for us, when you reach august, beginning or end, just pull the trigger. 

While I don't know you as a person, I do wish you well, but I feel so sorry for you and your pain. 

BTW, when you are ready, it does not take 3 months to find a woman... it just does not...


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Are you now regularly spending alone time with W in the "marriage" bed?
If you aren't romantically involved with W by now in your journey.......it's long over.
You sound like a responsible/good guy. Good luck.


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Are you now regularly spending alone time with W in the "marriage" bed?
> If you aren't romantically involved with W by now in your journey.......it's long over.
> You sound like a responsible/good guy. Good luck.


 @BluesPower - yessir I will stay strong on my August deadline, I give the group my promise. When I started this whole thing I was expecting huge changes like week to week and I feel like I was just being a brat which is why I wanted to talk to some women and get their perspective. I'm confident 3 months is solid. That ought to demonstrate a tremendous amount of empathy for her side of the story.

@Ragnar - not sure I understand your question. We sleep in the same bed every night, no toddler invasion anymore, and that comes with anywhere from 5 to 20 mins of "pillow talk". I put an end to that. When I push for things in baby steps, she gives them to me and sticks to it. For example, she always makes sure she sits next to me at dinner whether we're at home or in public. That was a specific request of mine after she was trying to be physically distant. Not acceptable.

I know it sounds super lame, mr. nice guy, but if that is part of the process I will take the higher road. Next up is hand holding and I'll take it from there. If she pulls her hand away, then that August date may move up. But if she follows my cadence and lets me lead this relationship back to where it is supposed to be, then I'm good.

This whole process has re-positioned me as the leader in the relationship and I'm thankful for that. Along the way I think I lost my touch as being the head of household.

For the guys that are married, never stop sweeping your wife off her feet. It doesn't end at 'I do'.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I really meant if you were having sexual relations by this time....
On your reply......if on spends too much time trying to earn or sneak up on having physical relations that too can reinforce the negative in a hopeful rekindling. 

It sounds like there's already been too much time between the physical....and unless a speedy getting W to get kids out of bed/see to you two's intimacy restart, more time will build more walls. Even though your being nice, and thinking it will help. Only you know best.....but mostly in these circumstances a quick setting of rules on restoration is best.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

As in....your in (W) or your out.


----------



## Trident (May 23, 2018)

Holdingontoit said:


> Can you get divorced by the end of the calendar year? After 2018, alimony / support payments to the ex-spouse are no longer deductible to the payer. So to add insult to injury, you will be paying income tax on money you give your ex-wife!


It's going to be a mess for sure, however the amount of alimony paid will generally be less because it's not taxable to the recipient. That much being said, because the tax deductability is being lost, the savings to the government will mean there's less available for the two divorcing parties which will muddy the waters and make things that much more difficult to negotiate and settle, at least in the early months and years of the new tax law.


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

I specialize in developing transformational roadmaps for my customers and a concept I always go back to is that once the basic stuff gets improved, the advanced stuff can be achieved exponentially quickly. The challenge is that the basics are the hardest to get moving in a positive direction, that is where the heavy lift is.

With that, let's take a look at what 2 months of progress look like and see if that pace is an indicator for the future. I wish I had savethemarriage.com up front, I would have saved a lot of time from the steps I took backwards. I basically made every mistake in the book along the way. The 'fighting for my marriage' devotional plan in 'The Bible' app is also spot on, as well as 5 Languages of Love, and marriagebuilders.com.

June 1: Wife staring listlessly on the couch, obviously depressed, completely checked out
July 31: Little to no reality TV, eliminated numbing activities, being productive around the house

June 1: 1 word / letter text message status updates
July 31: Heavy text conversation, blowing me emoji kisses, thanks / affirmations

June 1: Leaving the house early for errands, trying not to be around, hiding in every corner of the house
July 31: Leaves last minute for errands, stays out only as long as necessary, engaged with me and the kids as we go through our day together

June 1: "I don't want to do anything with you"
July 31: Dates with and without kids, mini-vacations, watching our favorite shows together, pursuing me to do other activities

June 1: Forced to go to therapy
July 31: Makes her own appointments

June 1: Sleeping in different beds
July 31: Sleeping in same bed, no toddler, not inching to the corner of the bed

June 1: No plans for the future, other than thinking about what it might be like to be divorced
July 31: I'm included in all plans both short-term and long-term, including vacations, potential vacations, school schedules out beyond the next grade, etc...

June 1: Doesn't really want to look at me
July 31: Texting me clothes she thinks I'll look good in, wants to take me to the mall to pick out some new gear, lots of good eye contact

June 1: Doesn't want to work, wants to stay at home watching reality TV and tanning at the pool
July 31: Started a new job earning $50k, her own office, brand new equipment laptop / company iphone, working full-time

June 1: Won't sit next to me
July 31: Arranges the children and seats both at home and in public so that we sit together

June 1: Working out and dieting like crazy, no alcohol, no fun
July 31: Relaxed the diet, work out plan is reduced at least 60% of what it was, has drinks with me


----------



## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

waynejoey said:


> I specialize in developing transformational roadmaps for my customers and a concept I always go back to is that once the basic stuff gets improved, the advanced stuff can be achieved exponentially quickly. The challenge is that the basics are the hardest to get moving in a positive direction, that is where the heavy lift is.
> 
> With that, let's take a look at what 2 months of progress look like and see if that pace is an indicator for the future. I wish I had savethemarriage.com up front, I would have saved a lot of time from the steps I took backwards. I basically made every mistake in the book along the way. The 'fighting for my marriage' devotional plan in 'The Bible' app is also spot on, as well as 5 Languages of Love, and marriagebuilders.com.
> 
> ...


I hope it keeps going this way and that this ends up being a turning point for your marriage. It's funny you mentioned savethemarriage.com. Even though I have realized that many of the marriage help programs are things that only give you slightly better odds than doing nothing, I have retained some things of value from all of the programs that I read, listened to, etc. I think Lee Baucom had a lot of good points and a good message and like I have been saying to you all along, it was about Consistency if this was to be saved, that concept was drilled in my head from the Lee Baucom items. He also acknowledged that if there is an affair going on that likely none of his items would have an affect. Could of been a bail out or legit on his part but it's the truth. 

I think some of these programs do have genuine merit, or at least certain aspects do, consistency being the most important but I also realized that none of these programs will work once the heart is given to someone else, no matter what the programs may say.

I'm glad things are looking up at this point, keep with it.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

waynejoey said:


> I specialize in developing transformational roadmaps for my customers and a concept I always go back to is that once the basic stuff gets improved, the advanced stuff can be achieved exponentially quickly. The challenge is that the basics are the hardest to get moving in a positive direction, that is where the heavy lift is.
> 
> With that, let's take a look at what 2 months of progress look like and see if that pace is an indicator for the future. I wish I had savethemarriage.com up front, I would have saved a lot of time from the steps I took backwards. I basically made every mistake in the book along the way. The 'fighting for my marriage' devotional plan in 'The Bible' app is also spot on, as well as 5 Languages of Love, and marriagebuilders.com.
> 
> ...


Did you mean for all the dates to be the same. I am not sure that I understand the post...


----------



## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> Did you mean for all the dates to be the same. I am not sure that I understand the post...


He's comparing scenarios of how things were on June 1st compared to how they are now for the same scenario .... essentially detailing the progress and how things are better 2 months later.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

stillfightingforus said:


> He's comparing scenarios of how things were on June 1st compared to how they are now for the same scenario .... essentially detailing the progress and how things are better 2 months later.


If I had heard wild monkey sex I would understand that things are better. Since I did not see that, I assume that they are not better, but then what do I know...


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

stillfightingforus said:


> He's comparing scenarios of how things were on June 1st compared to how they are now for the same scenario .... essentially detailing the progress and how things are better 2 months later.


That is correct, it is a comparison. I also failed to mention that before it was a lot of fighting, temper tantrums, and even yelling at the kids. None of that is happening now. Our house is very calm and our parenting style is consistent, calm, and steady. The kids' behavior has improved in light of this.

Given that the solution to all of her complaints are found in the save the marriage material, I value it pretty high.

When she stopped working and we started popping out kids I was thinking "great, she'll get tons of sleep, be low stress, and I'll be getting waited on hand and foot". None of that happened. Raising kids was just as hard, sex wasn't going to become all freak nasty in the middle of the day, she would still get tired and be stressed, and we had less money.

I think I subconsciously resented her for this and de-valued her in my mind, which goes against how I won her in the first place. Now that she is back at work, my mood and value for her have increased even more so (than it already has during my self-help transformation).

Even though we're both to blame and that her disconnecting is not in the spirit of unconditional love, I'm still willing to man up and take my lumps for my part in this. I know many others have disagreed citing 180s, affairs, and other negativity, but I still stand in opposition to all that. What works for my wife is to be built up, loved, honored, and cared for. Kindess is the #1 thing that wins her over, I should have never lost sight of that.

I'll check back in a couple weeks, pull for me!


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

I promised an update, so here it is.

My wife and the counselor agree that anger, resentment, and emotional walls/guards have been removed. Day to day life is pretty good. We don't fight, kids are happy, everyone is working, the routine is pretty packed but its predictable and reasonable. We're all getting good sleep, eating healthy, and exercising. We spend a lot of quality time together, pretty much every moment of the day Monday through Sunday except when she is working.

My wife has recognized my changes and my love deposits, she thinks they are sweet. But, she is frustrated that she doesn't have any feelings in return. She said I'm in the "friend zone". Then she said she felt like she was wasting her time, but when I brought it up later that night she back pedaled on the wording. Wasting time may sound horrific to an outsider, but to me I think its good because that means she is pushing for an outcome whether it is one way or the other.

When she thinks about a life without me, she feels like the emotional pressures are gone, even though life will be harder from a tactical perspective. She feels sad about the whole situation.

In response to this I let her know that her feelings are valid, that I accept the situation, and that I'm here to love and support her until she makes the choice to walk out. I'm hoping this relieves some emotional pressure and that it shows me in a light of strong, confident male, which is what I have grown to become.

In terms of my self-improvement, when I came to TAM my goals were to get back in my wife's pants. My goal now is to glorify God and follow his plan. In the bible there are 3 valid reasons for divorce: the unbeliever leaves, affair, and physical abuse. I also wanted to point out that I've gone cold turkey on porn. I think that was a big reason for some of my negative behaviors in the past. Even lusting about my wife in an unhealthy way has caused me a lot of frustration. I think that was probably the largest hurdle for me to overcome and the biggest thing that harmed my marriage. I've struggled with addiction to lust throughout my whole life, it is time to put an end to it.

Obviously I'd prefer reconciliation, but I have peace on my heart if she decides to be the one who leaves. I also reminded her that each month has been better than the last. There is no reason to lose hope as long as things keep improving. She has also agreed to do the love dare and I'm banking that it puts some spiritual conviction on her heart to realize that love is a choice and love is an action.

In terms of timing I read that this situation could take 1-2 months for each year of marriage. Since she only states that she has been feeling the distance for the last 3 years, that means it could be 3-6 months to overcome. I find it interesting that in No More Mr. Nice Guy that a breaking free activity is to stop having sex for (you guessed it) 3-6 months. By removing my sexual reliance on her and my lustful ways, I'm empowered to live life without the constant anxiety of "not getting any". It just wasn't healthy for any of us.

I'll check back in with you guys after our swanky couples vacation. Maybe some alcohol and sexy outfits will nudge things along, after all that's the circumstance under which we met.

Pray for us!


----------



## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

"friend zone"........run forest run !!!!!


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

waynejoey said:


> I promised an update, so here it is.
> 
> My wife and the counselor agree that anger, resentment, and emotional walls/guards have been removed. Day to day life is pretty good. We don't fight, kids are happy, everyone is working, the routine is pretty packed but its predictable and reasonable. We're all getting good sleep, eating healthy, and exercising. We spend a lot of quality time together, pretty much every moment of the day Monday through Sunday except when she is working.
> 
> ...


Fix yourself. She will do what she's going to do. You can't change that. Only she could.

Kissing her ass at this time will work against you. Not for you.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

She is at the indifferent stage.
She is numb.
She is committed to separate.

She has realized that being anxious and tense is not productive.

When will she leave?
When her checked out status changes to.....

Gone.

When she finds some courage.
When she gets her ducklings in a row.
When she becomes comfortable working, earning money, knowing she can go alone.
When she determines that she is desirable to men in general.
When she finds a new man. 

She wants a new life with a new man. She wants to feel love, to be in love again.
That is a worthwhile endeavor. It is.

Face the facts....
She may stay, she does not love you.

Her mind is in conflict.
Do I stay or do I go.

She will stay...
Until she goes...

Going is not negotiable.
When is.


Lilith-


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

waynejoey said:


> I'm starting to look at it this way. If she is cheating or planning an exit strategy, it makes no sense for me to snoop or worry about it too much. At the end of the day, we're reconciled by labor day or this is over, so all the conjecture doesn't matter. It is also important to let her start her job, because if I divorce before then I'll get slapped with alimony. I also probably didn't do a good job of describing her motherhood. She will absolutely put the kids first and above and beyond herself. The thought of divorce makes her sick. When I stopped threatening divorce, her depression seemed to subside and she shifted into self-improvement.
> 
> Reasons to Stay
> Counseling ends up being a success, we both address our issues that we came into the marriage with, and we finally get the marriage we both want.
> ...



Your passiveness is why she treats you this way. Passive men get abused, and lots of them get cheated on. Passive people get abused. DNA test you kid, and file. Life is better then you are accepting.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

I am really sorry to hear your update. 

While I am sure that you think everything is going your way, I assure you it is not. 

You wife does not love you anymore if she ever did. Your understanding of the bible, and how it relates to marriage is skewed. 

What you don't and maybe won't understand, is that, this is not the way that it is supposed to be. Nothing about this is biblical, even without the religious aspect, it is just wrong. 

As a man, you are not one, frankly. But possibly, the worst aspect of this is that you do not love yourself. You think that you are doing the right, you think that you are being a stand up guy, you think that God wants you to suffer to prove that you are a strong Christian. But all you are showing anyone is that you are a weak person, and you are showing your children that you can be mistreated and it is OK.

That is the wrong message to send. 

I am sure that you think me and others are full of it. And I really want to think that this will all work out for you, but I would be a liar if I said that I think it will. 

But only you can make the choices for your life, and I wish you all the best.


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

WayneJoey, you clearly don't have a clue when it comes to women. At the rate you're going, you stand about as much chance as a one legged man making a pro soccer team. Give it another 6 month or a year at best, you'll understand what I'm talking about.


----------



## Uselessmale (May 20, 2017)

She is/has pushed you away, and is just using you. Leave.


----------



## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Good luck living in the friendzone ....... she isn't attracted to you any more. Your gonna have to accept that. You can wrap it up in all the self lies and bible verse you want.


----------



## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

let me get this right, your wife told you she friendzoned you?

I do not think a woman falls out of love that much to friendzone you, and from there can ever come back to be in love with you. It sounds like a future of disappointment for you


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Pretty sad how you’re hanging on despite being told you are just a friend. You’re really prolonging your pain. I hate it for you.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

This guy find out his wife is banging her trainer/workout buddy/someone from the gym yet?


----------



## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Your wife sees your efforts to improve the marriage and tells you your efforts are "sweet" but she does not have any feelings for you.

Your wife tells you that you are in the "friend zone".

Your wife tells you she feels that she is wasting her time working on the marriage.

And you think all this is a good sign????????

Holy rose colored glasses Batman!


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

WJ. Wake up and smell the coffee sir. You are in the “friend zone” and are satisfied with being there at this juncture? Really? You are just swabbing the deck. She has checked out, and you should strongly consider revisiting the petition of dissolution of marriage. How can you be sure she is not seeing someone on the side? To me the friend zone is the same as ilybianilwu. 

A marriage cannot be one sided as it appears to be now. Just my two cents.


----------



## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

So basically you have told her that i will love you, support you, and put up with your crap and continue to be your ATM, Babysitter, Cook, Servant, and Cuckold Husband.


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

Hey Guys,

Sorry for the long hiatus. Obviously everyone feels strongly about how this is one sided and I've been a doormat, but sometimes that is part of the process. I have no regrets giving this marriage my all and going 4 months without any love or affection. I know my kids will respect my effort one day when they ultimately find out what happened. I proved you can love the unlovely like Jesus does through action. I proved you can drop the entitlement act and not act like a baby when you don't get what you want. I've been able to experience the fruits of the holy spirit during trying times: love, patience, kindness, etc...

Now that I have put in my part of the work, being the perfect husband, self-improving, being a great dad, being a better christian - it is clear I have left my wife behind. She is still the same old immature little girl that I married, with weak spirituality, no guiding principles, no work ethic, and no key relationships with anyone in her life, not even her mom, sister, or best friend. 

My analysis of this is that she is a sociopath and married me for the convenience of my paycheck and assistance with her son from the first marriage. She never really married me for "we". There never was a "we". It was always about her fulfilling her own needs. Sociopath: person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

As for those suggesting the affair all along - nope - but I don't blame you given how it looks, because you don't realize that this sociopath is also basically asexual. She doesn't have a care in the world to interact or be with anyone. She goes straight to work, comes right home, talks to the kids for like 30 mins, then plays on her phone, and goes to bed. She literally does this EVERY DAY even on weekends. It is the weirdest thing ever.

So it is time to move on. She will be served with divorce papers soon and I'm in great position to win primary custody of my kids.

Farewell TAM. This is my final post.


----------



## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Wayne your journey of self discovery is just as important as your marriage was...it is for that reason that i suggest you come back here to share how you are doing...to participate in helping others, perhaps share some life lessons with others. I either way i wish you well.


----------



## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

After retyping my post for the fifth time all I can say is ............. Wow!


----------



## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

I think you missed the boat on your interpretation of the what's/why's with your wife but that really doesn't matter as long as you are moving forward with your life and not wasting it on someone that is undeserving. Good luck in your new direction.


----------



## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

I hope the best for you and your family WJ, I really do. I just hope you get help from some outside sources other than reading materials but real life people that have been through this, specialize in it. There's still an issue here with inconsistency even when you had sold your self on choosing a path, feeling or sentiment. To go from it's on me and shes resentful and I need to do something about it to she's a sociopath, who doesn't deserve me, has no friends, etc. And that cycle would go around and around. The answer and truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

Listen, what you are saying now may all be true but even in your last few posts of when you were actively trying hard, you would talk within sentences of each other of not forcing the issue with sex and just letting it be but immediately imply that you were going on a trip and their better be sex!

I hate saying this as a devout because it feels like I'm thumping or judging but although this paragraph is deeply intro/retrospective it's also quite one-sided, touting and assuming and not something as a Christian I would probably put for others to read in this context. "Now that I have put in my part of the work, being the perfect husband, self-improving, being a great dad, being a better christian - it is clear I have left my wife behind. She is still the same old immature little girl that I married, with weak spirituality, no guiding principles, no work ethic, and no key relationships with anyone in her life, not even her mom, sister, or best friend. "

Lastly, not sure which state you are in but it's highly doubtful you would get primary custody of your kids unless she simply doesn't want 50/50. Just about every state I have read about or in my own case found out, the SO would have to be an active crack addict that has affairs while their kids are in the same room to get less than 50/50.


----------



## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

well good for you for giving it one final try, and sticking in there another four months. Now you have no regrets, will never say "boy, if only i tried one more time". you have a clear conscience to move on now.


----------



## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

waynejoey said:


> Now that I have put in my part of the work, being the perfect husband, self-improving, being a great dad, being a better christian - it is clear I have left my wife behind.
> 
> She is still the same old immature little girl that I married...
> 
> My analysis of this is that she is a sociopath...


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

Just kidding!

I retained a lawyer but quickly cancelled it. For a moment it felt right, but I was in a dark place at the time. I needed to have my christian brothers remind me that divorce would never be God's direction and that I had to work harder and keeping loving like no one has ever loved before.

I had to put down all my entitlement and pride. I had to let go of control. I had to truly love and be joyous while getting nothing in return to truly understand what He did for us - carrying the cross up that hill.

One morning, while I was out of town, I had gone an entire day without even a text message. I was in a very lonely place. I fell to my knees and cried out: I'm confused, I'm frustrated, I'm angry. I need help. Please put me on the right path. I leave it in Your hands.

The next day things started changing. My wife was texting me, calling me, talking about shows we should watch. Each day got better and better. I stayed cool, calm, and collective. I didn't pursue - but I rewarded these acts of affection by responding when she showed initiation. I made her laugh. I got new hobbies. I went to church. I befriended Godly men. Every day, better and better. More conversation, more time together, more phone calls, eye contact, laughing, touching.

Then it happened. She confided in a christian friend that had walked through the same trial and she spoke truth to her. I get a text message. "I want to go to counseling again, we will get through this". Then she told me she loved me... 10 days after she said she wasn't in love and that we should divorce.

How about them apples!!! All the self-help books, 180 tactics, reverse psychology etc... couldn't scratch the surface of what the bible was able to provide. Love never fails. Have faith in all things. And pray pray pray pray ceaselessly, these prayers do get answered.


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

waynejoey said:


> How about them apples!!! All the self-help books, 180 tactics, reverse psychology etc... couldn't scratch the surface of what the bible was able to provide. Love never fails. Have faith in all things. And pray pray pray pray ceaselessly, these prayers do get answered.


:scratchhead: 

Ok. I am not sure, but where in the bible does it say to be calm, cool and collected with your spouse? To not pursue your spouse and let them pursue you a little? To be your own man with your own interests? Getting back together is going to have to be her idea or it won't work no matter how much you have to convince her. Because that sounds a lot like the books we asked you to read...not the bible. 

But if you think that all your praying did it for you, well then I guess it did. Praise be to God! Hallelujah!

Congratulations to you both!


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

Not a damn thing wrong with your approach. Never doubt the power of the Almighty. For those who have faith, no explanation is necessary. For those who lack faith, no explanation is possible. Happy for you Wayne Joey


----------



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Maybe I have missed something but are you having sex with your wife yet?
If not, all the Bible quotes in the New Testament aren’t going to change the fact that your wife weighs up the pros and cons of living with you and has decided that staying with you is in her best interest.
You have one life buddy,don’t waste it on this sociopath.


----------



## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

My own personal experience with church-based relationship therapy/help can be summarized as:

"Keep the family together. No matter what. Set aside your ego. KEEP THE FAMILY TOGETHER."

Man:* "B...but... I caught my wife banging five guys in the basement. She tells me she hates me. She hasn't had attraction to me in years."*

Church: *"KEEP THE FAMILY TOGETHER."*

Men love to lean on a sense of honor or duty as an excuse for acting out of fear of the unknown. *"Leave her? Ha! We have marital vows!"* Translation: *"I'm hurt. I'm scared. I'm beyond freaked out right now. I have built the entire framework of my life around this relationship."* The Church just exacerbates this mindset.


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

This all sounds good and hopeful, but keep your eyes open. If you are in this same or better place 3 months from now, then maybe its real.


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

dadstartingover said:


> My own personal experience with church-based relationship therapy/help can be summarized as:
> 
> "Keep the family together. No matter what. Set aside your ego. KEEP THE FAMILY TOGETHER."
> 
> ...


That's not true. God permits divorce for adultery. So if you caught her cheating in the basement, the bible considers her unclean, and you can divorce. However, if she repented and asked for forgiveness then you would be urged to forgive her as Hosea did. The repenting has to be the real deal though, no backsliding.

There are no affairs in our marriage, therefore there is no reason for divorce.

Things are going quite well, she texts me hearts and stuff, we spend a lot of quality time together. I'm happy to get an opportunity to rebuild the relationship in a more Godly way than it was before, rather than starting all over with someone new. This will all pay huge dividends in the long run. No doubt about it, marriage is tough, but you have to persevere and drop the entitlement act. It's a real turn off.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

waynejoey said:


> That's not true. God permits divorce for adultery. So if you caught her cheating in the basement, the bible considers her unclean, and you can divorce. However, if she repented and asked for forgiveness then you would be urged to forgive her as Hosea did. The repenting has to be the real deal though, no backsliding.
> 
> There are no affairs in our marriage, therefore there is no reason for divorce.
> 
> Things are going quite well, she texts me hearts and stuff, we spend a lot of quality time together. I'm happy to get an opportunity to rebuild the relationship in a more Godly way than it was before, rather than starting all over with someone new. This will all pay huge dividends in the long run. No doubt about it, marriage is tough, but you have to persevere and drop the entitlement act. It's a real turn off.


One question, how often are you guys having sex? 

Further, you miss the whole point of his post. Church counseling often does way more harm than good. 

If your experience is good, the good for you...


----------



## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

.


----------



## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

waynejoey said:


> Just kidding!
> 
> I retained a lawyer but quickly cancelled it. For a moment it felt right, but I was in a dark place at the time. I needed to have my christian brothers remind me that divorce would never be God's direction and that I had to work harder and keeping loving like no one has ever loved before.
> 
> ...


I am a Christian, so I understand what you are saying. My husband was unfaithful years ago, and I was in a dark place for a very long time, and very angry with him about that and other choices he has made though the years. When he began to live a truly Godly life, and showing me constant selfless love, no matter how I treated him, and this lasted for years....I began to have feelings for him again. Whenever he would lose heart and start to act pissy, I would immediately think I wanted to be away from him again.

If you are persistent, HUMBLE, and if she is not a sociopath, you might win her heart.

The key question is:

Are you having sex with your wife on a regular basis again?

Have you apologized to your wife for using porn and told her that you want her to fulfill all your sexual needs? You need to do that, and not go back to porn, "Like a dog returns to vomit" because that is how it is going to feel if you start watching it again.

Also, in your "almost" last post you said you were a "perfect husband." No one is perfect. You need to remember that, or you will turn into a very bad husband. Being humble will keep you being a good husband, but never a perfect husband.

Do you still believe your wife is a sociopath? I'm curious about everything that went into that idea because your second to last post seemed to be written by a completely different person than the person who wrote the rest of the thread.


----------



## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Tron said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> Ok. I am not sure, but where in the bible does it say to be calm, cool and collected with your spouse?


"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh answer stirs up anger." Pr. 15:1

"A hot-tempered person stirs up conflict, but the one who is patient calms a quarrel." Pr 15:18


----------



## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

waynejoey said:


> I'm happy to get an opportunity to rebuild the relationship in a more Godly way than it was before, rather than starting all over with someone new. This will all pay huge dividends in the long run. No doubt about it, marriage is tough, but you have to persevere and drop the entitlement act. It's a real turn off.


You have my support and prayers. That is what my husband and I are doing as well. He is all in and I have been watching for cracks and there haven't been any for all the years I've been watching. I waver, but he doesn't.

If you commit to the long haul, (as long as your wife remains faithful and starts to have sex with you) you will spend your winter years with your wife, and the mother of your children. Your children and grand children will go to one house for birthdays and all holidays. All your memories can be remembered and cherished together.

I do want to ask about your wife's not interacting with people and being on her phone from the time she gets home to the time she goes to bed. Has that stopped? What stopped it?


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

LOL nope.


----------



## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

It's scary sometimes to get these glimpses of what goes on inside the mind of people that live through the religious hopium.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

*Very long post incoming... I think I broke my record... 
*

So I just read the entire thread today and while I hope that this latest more hopeful post means things will get better but since it seems like your wife has told you in multiple ways including verbally that she only sees you as a friend I think the chances are slim. I suspect she may take a nicer tone but nothing will change. 

A couple of things, if we are going to go directly from biblical thinking then it's really a mistake to think of this situation as a quarrel like the last verse that was quoted. In fact if you want to go strictly by biblical thinking then your wife is in sin. 1 Corinthians 7. Now this is really sensitive and I personally don't think this verse is saying you can just use her for your liking, I do think the point of this verse is that you have some authority to not be happy if this is the situation you find yourself in. 

There is much biblical discussion about how to treat a fellow believer when they are in sin. First you go to them, then you go to an elder, and if it doesn't get fix you cast them out. Seems you have done the first two. Keeping that in mind - you are not supposed to divorce - but nothing says you have to live with someone who treats you this way, or even spend time with them. After all you can be friends with them (like she seems to be indicating she wants) without sharing expenses, or spending every night with this person. I suspect if you choose to move out the divorce will take care of itself and you won't have to divorce her, she will wise up or divorce you. At the very least it will force your wife to make difficult decisions. Don't discount the advice here because it's not coming from a religious leader. The bibles says God used a donkey, so why not one of us *******s here on this site. 

Here is the thing, I personally would just divorce her. It's very unlikely you are going to be able to make her fall in love with you. One thing that won't work though is continuing acting how you are. There are some very basic patterns that you fall into which I think seem to be common to men who get in these kinds of situations. The first and I think biggest issue is that you treat your wife like a child. You support her completely and she doesn't work. When she acts like an *******, and make no mistake your wife IS an *******, you shield her from consequence and even the truth about how poor a wife she is. You are WAY TOO dependent on her. In doing this you have set up a childlike parent relationship. No wife or husband is going to feel romantic interests in their spouse if she is treated like a child and loved like a child. Instead she acts out like a child would, and has romantic interest in you like you are her father. Your wife is a grown adult who has been acting like a spoiled brat for a LONG time, maybe all of your marriage. 

After reading this post I would not be shocked at all if your wife was having an affair despite your protest. Who was this coach she was talking to for hours? Why did she need to talk to a coach for hours? Doesn't make a lot of logical sense. Besides that do you have access to her phone? Are you with her during the day? You would not be the first person whose wife's affair was only going on when there was no chance of you finding out, like when you are away at work. Lots of times there is no contact when the spouse is around. You are way too trusting, maybe even in your ability to not be fooled. 

Why do you assume if your wife is content when the primary male relationship in her life as a friend. It seems very unlikely SHE would be satisfied with that? Does she not have urges and desires like you? You assume this at your own peril. If she sees you as a friend she will eventually be looking or even bump into a guy who she sees as a romantic lover. It's built into us to want this, even your wife. Though at least then your problems would be solved if you have the stones, but you may stay, who knows. Biblically you could divorce her at that point, UNLESS she keeps that under the radar because she doesn't want to have to deal with the consequences. Which gives her motive to keep it under the radar, right? As you say you are very successful financially. Frankly it seems much more likely she isn't desperately wanting this because she already has it but you don't know about that. You need to think long an hard about this. 

But lets say she hasn't gotten there yet, then if it were me the first thing would be she gets a full time job. Seems like your kids are in school now so at the very least it could be when they are in class. She should start to have to contribute to the bills. She not a child incapable of work, why is she spending a great part of your day not contributing. Next call her on her entitlement, stop protecting her from you. Stop making exceptions and excuses. You guys need to be more of a team and less of she is my princess. Being a team creates an intellectual an emotional simulating relationship because it requires daily input and investment from both people for each other and the relationship. Us against the world is a very healthy place to be in, in marriage, and it can lead to some hot sex too. The Knight/Princess thing really only requires input and action from the knight, the princess' only investment is in her own rescue and safety. You absolutely need to change this dynamic.

Also you seem very wishy-wasy, I don't think anyone but especially wives finds this attractive. The only time that works is in Hollywood, and then it's better to think of yourself and Bruce Willis or the Rock, not Woody Allen. Women want the first two. This is why books like "Hold on to your nuts, No More Mr Nice Guy, or the Married Man's Sex Primer work. You need to Lead. Be a leader in your relationship, be strong, take action, detach and think of yourself as on a mission and it's up to your wife if she comes along. You will get much better results. She probably wants to be with a man who has a mission instead of a devoted fanboy. You need to change your style. 

Overall though you need to stop expecting her to be your path to getting whatever it is you need. In this case it seems like physical intimacy. You need to strive to get that with or without her. Not saying cheat but if you don't want to divorce, then move out let her divorce or maybe she will do some soul searching and change. The only thing you can change is yourself. You can't beg or plead for your wife to love you. 

One other thing, you seem to be thinking you are helping your kids by staying. Well first off seeing their father being disrespected is not giving them a great example. Will your daughter disrespect her husband, will your son marry a women who disrespects him. Not talking to you or including you as her husband is very disrespectful. Treating her husband as a ATM is very disrespectful. 

Still even ignoring that, let me give you another example, I have a friend who is married to a women whose parents had a marriage much like yours. The were married for 30 years but by the time the kids were young all the affection was going from the marriage. This is what their kids grew up watching as their norm. So what has happened is now this women has grown up and puts no value in affection in the marriage. In her mind marriage is about daily life, like a business partnership and as far as he is concerned she is good at that. But the affection is always a chore and while she is not against it is not intuitive to her nature. He is pretty close to divorcing her and he is very unhappy in his marriage. I don't think she gets it, in her mind she is being a good wife. It's what she knows. I think her parents got divorced anyway, and by staying in a loveless marriage they ended up damaging themselves but also their daughters future marriage. I say that to say don't assume you are helping you kids.


----------



## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

@sokillme: beautifully exposed, but as you already can infer these will be wasted words and counsel on this OP, but I hope your words get through him somehow.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Rob_1 said:


> @sokillme: beautifully exposed, but as you already can infer these will be wasted words and counsel on this OP, but I hope your words get through him somehow.


Even if it doesn't maybe someone else will read it and it will.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

waynejoey said:


> I'm happy to get an opportunity to rebuild the relationship in a more Godly way than it was before, rather than starting all over with someone new. This will all pay huge dividends in the long run. .


"It's easier to give birth than to resurrect the dead."
-Athol Kay


You may be addicted to Hopium and are simply holding out hope that you can some how 'nice' her into loving and desiring you. 

Anyone can text heart emojis and sappy little love txts. Anyone can say anything. 

What is her body doing? Is she cuddling up to you and kissing you like she means it (women can fake orgasms surprisingly well. I am not sure a single one can fake deep, passionate, intimate kissing) Does she tear your clothes off and go down on you? Does she ride you like a big white horse? 


Or does her body stiffen up and turn slightly away from you when you try to give her a hug and try to hold her in an embrace? Does she give you a smack on the lips and then turn her face to present her cheek or look down to present her forehead when you try to continue kissing her? Does she give you a quick hug and then pat your back like an MMA fighter "Tapping out?" 

When you try to make a hard initiation to make love, does she always have an excuse? Does she run around the house doing 234,763 other mundane tasks before she can come to bed? If she does capitulate and give in to provide 'duty sex' does she lay there and keep glancing at clock, scratching her nose and her head, telling you to hurry up and finish or show other signs that she isn't really there and isn't really engaging. 

There is a big difference between making love and letting someone borrow your body to masturbate with now and then. 

Those are the things that will tell you if she actually wants to be engaged intimately with you or not.


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Which is stronger, your faith, your hope she will love you again, or your fear of being alone? I think it’s hope. Hope can be a terrible thing when dealing with a woman’s heart. Many a man has spent years hoping a woman loved him and wasted his life that would be better spent looking elsewhere.

I hope God has worked a miracle for you.
I hope your wife truly has romantic interest in you again. I hope she’s not a sociopath. 
I guess I’m on hopium as well.

Just know without a doubt that there is nothing you can do to change her true feelings for you. Neither can she. The love is there or it isn’t. You can grow it, but you can’t plant a seed and watch it grow. Not that simple.


----------



## brettyboo (May 5, 2018)

So far there are many similarities between your story and mine. The actions of your wife indicate that something did break at some point, and she is unsure of whether it can be repaired.

In my case, what broke was that I eventually found out that she had had an affair. There were *no* direct signs, not one. There was only behavioural patterns that were the same as your wife's. I worked from home and she didnt work either, so dont say your circumstances would have ensured that you would've picked up on it. I'm going to suggest that a cyber affair is a strong possibility for her.

Please, you are doing great, but don't think you are all-knowing. If it was an affair, she will be preparing for when you find out, and for the expected aftermath. With your belief that adultery means the end, she would naturally see that reconciliation is a waste of time.

I'm sorry for where you are, and I hope what I am saying is not how it is.


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

Sorry for the long delay folks, I've been busy with life and enjoying the progress of a healing marriage. I read through your comments and have answers to your questions. Our marriage is experiencing a tremendous turn around. Not everything is healed yet, but it is starting to get better than it ever was before. My wife is also slowly admitting to all of her faults and contributions in this which is very gratifying.

@Araucaria - has being on the phone all the time stopped? have we started having sex?
She still likes her phone, but is on it a lot less. She is very engaged in the morning and after work with both me and the kids. We spend a lot of quality time together (off of devices).
No sex yet, but getting close. She booked a romantic vacation for just the 2 of us out of town and she has been giving me big wet kisses on the lips each day for almost a week now. First it started out as a casual hug, then a hug with a peck on the cheek, then each day her lips inched closer to my mouth. The progression of intimacy is just amazing to see in action. All things are possible with God. I'd rather stay stoic until she is begging me for sex rather than me guilt tripping her on the daily. To me that is the greater accomplishment and she's worth it.

@sokillme - "I think the chances are slim", "It's very unlikely you are going to be able to make her fall in love with you", "I would not be shocked at all if your wife was having an affair despite your protest"
"then if it were me the first thing would be she gets a full time job"
Nope, she never had an affair. That was satan putting those thoughts in my head and it did way more harm than good.
I can't make her love me? She says "I love you" to me multiple times per week. How do you like them apples? We're also snuggling in bed more and more each day. She initiates half of the contact. I make a point not to be chasing her all the time. This is more attractive for a man to behave this way. She did get a full-time job.

@oldshirt - "It's easier to give birth than to resurrect the dead." -Athol Kay
When I got here you guys sent me to Athol's book as a first step. Worst decision of my life. Of the dozen books I've read and 30 bible devotionals Athol gave me the most set backs in this journey. His book has some neat ideas, but overall it is chauvinistic. I think maybe these techniques work on a submissive moron. My wife is too strong for boyish tactics.

Does she give you a quick hug and then pat your back like an MMA fighter "Tapping out?"
YES! We were both doing that as the corner started to turn!! You are right, it is awkward and not the final goal, but it is better than a cold shoulder. Intimacy takes a while to build and there was a lot of hurt to repair. At the rate things are going, we're really in store for a lot of beautiful things.

I like what Araucaria said about everyone being in the same house for family events and sharing your life with one person. This is the greater of the two decisions married men make. Divorce would just create new problems and swap one emotional needs gap for another. The better approach is to let Jesus be your fulfillment so you're not relying on the world to fulfill you, because the world will let you down. All of my anxiety, hopelessness, depression, and anger has subsided. Let this be a lesson to other men.


----------



## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

@waynejoey, I went back and reread your thread.  You started posting in July and it is now December. You hadn't had sex for a while before you began posting.

The longer your wife goes without sex with you, the less she will want to...it really works that way. How many children do you have? Did you get them by big wet kisses?

You are showing love to your wife according to 1 Corinthians 13:4, and yet she is not wanting to have sex with you.

Have you read the book No More Mr. Nice Guy? Although it is a secular book, it has very important principals that speak to honesty, integrity and self respect.

https://pdf-download-free-books.firebaseapp.com/xPA6yLr/No More Mr Nice Guy PDF.pdf

You have read the Athol book and you don't like it. I haven't read it because what I heard about it sounded manipulative. No More Mr. Nice Guy is not the same kind of book. It points out ways you may be being manipulative and encourages you to stop being that way.

Have you gone back to porn use since you still aren't getting sex? If you have, how do you feel about that? Are you a eunich right now? The only reason the Bible says to stop having sex as a couple is for both people to pray and seek God....and only for a (short) time. Paul even told people to get married if they had strong sexual urges. God created our bodies, and sexual hormones. He wants us to be able to have sex with our spouse.

How long are you going to allow yourself to be in a sexless marriage? It will not be good for you to continue that way, or you will also be a prime target for an affair, whether emotional or sexual. Don't tell yourself that you would never do that. "Pride comes before the fall." Proverbs 16:18

Even your wife, although she pretends to not have sexual feelings, will eventually want sex. She will use it to get and keep a man...that is how she got you, right? If another man pays attention to her, you bet she will turn on her sex moves to reel him in more and keep him.

Why doesn't she feel a need to have sex with you? You don't have to demand sex from her, but you can tell her that you will not live in a sexless marriage for the rest of your days, and you are going to divorce her soon so you can find a compatable partner who has needs and who loves to fulfill yours.

You personally sound better in a lot of ways but your marriage doesn't. I'm sorry to have to say it like that.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

MMSL may seem on the surface to imply some kind of manipulation, mind games or parlor tricks at first, but it is not.

The purpose of MMSL is not to pretend to be some kind of PUA or 'alpha' or to do parlor tricks to try to tease someone into getting turned on.

It is not to teach men lacking sexually attractive traits to pretend they do, but rather to develop those traits and actually become attractive and desirable. men.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

waynejoey said:


> @oldshirt - "It's easier to give birth than to resurrect the dead." -Athol Kay
> When I got here you guys sent me to Athol's book as a first step. Worst decision of my life. Of the dozen books I've read and 30 bible devotionals Athol gave me the most set backs in this journey. His book has some neat ideas, but overall it is chauvinistic. I think maybe these techniques work on a submissive moron. My wife is too strong for boyish tactics.
> 
> Does she give you a quick hug and then pat your back like an MMA fighter "Tapping out?"
> YES! We were both doing that as the corner started to turn!! You are right, it is awkward and not the final goal, but it is better than a cold shoulder. Intimacy takes a while to build.


Read my post above about MMSL.

If MMSL is the worst thing you ever did, then you either didn't actually read it or you completely misinterpreted every single thing about it.

MMSL isn't about pick up lines and trying to fool someone into thinking you're something you are not.

A woman's attraction for a man has nothing to do with her strength vs weakness. A strong woman is attracted to the same traits and characteristics in a man as a weak one. 

MMSL is about developing the traits in yourself that women find sexual attractive and breaking the bad habits that turn them off. 

It is about changing yourself into an attractive and desirable man. It is not about pick up lines and elevator shoes. 

You don't read MMSL one day, say a few cheesy pick up lines to your wife and get a BJ that evening. It can take months and months of self reflection and hard work to develop the traits in yourself that women respond to sexually.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> MMSL may seem on the surface to imply some kind of manipulation, mind games or parlor tricks at first, but it is not.
> 
> The purpose of MMSL is not to pretend to be some kind of PUA or 'alpha' or to do parlor tricks to try to tease someone into getting turned on.
> 
> It is not to teach men lacking sexually attractive traits to pretend they do, but rather to develop those traits and actually become attractive and desirable. men.


Highly sexual female here.

MMSL is a pile of crap. 

That is all.


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> Highly sexual female here.
> 
> MMSL is a pile of crap.
> 
> That is all.


It's a book written by a man for men. 

Highly sexual man here....partly due to MMSL (and other sources of manly advice from other men for men)


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> Highly sexual female here.
> 
> MMSL is a pile of crap.
> 
> That is all.


Have you actually read it? 

If so, what makes it crap in your opinion?


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> Have you actually read it?
> 
> If so, what makes it crap in your opinion?


Yes, I have read it. Athol used to be a member here before he wrote the book, and was still around for awhile afterwards (while I was here). In fact he names TAM in his dedication.

Why is it crap? So many reasons. I’ve espoused about why it’s crap here many times.

But in a nutshell, I’ve been with men who are what MMSL claims to try to make men into, and the attitudes within the book are not the right vibe a (healthy) woman actually wants.

Now if you have a woman who is a nut case herself and lots of dumb mind games will work on her, then sure, read the book and try to game your wife. It works on dumb people and it works the same for women, too. We game dumb men using the same tactics (just revised for the differences in what works on each gender). Some of us game them for money, some for attention, some for sex that leads to something bigger we want.

Men and women who use game tactics to try to forge an actual relationship are going to end up with people who can be gamed. Do you want to be with such a person?

There are many better books.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> Men and women who use game tactics to try to forge an actual relationship are going to end up with people who can be gamed. Do you want to be with such a person?


Amen to this, and to relationships that are dishonest and use game tactics to try to get their way instead of communication. What a nightmare. I should be said though if you your goal is to just bang crazy chicks it works pretty well and crazy chicks are generally good in bed. Sorry but it's true and you know it. 

I do think there is something to be said about being assertive and some of the other stuff in some of these books. Some men are just so clueless. Anything to get them out of their heads and stop being such weenies.

Also I was thinking about this the other day. There has never been any cooked meals or wonderfully clean houses that made me want to have passionate sex with a women. Yet somehow the media like movies and Disney and all that tell us men that if we just work hard and are nice somehow that will make women want to jump our bones. That is just laughable when you think about it. It makes just as much sense. 

Someone needs to tell guys this. Just like someone needs to tell women Disney is not going to be what your life is like all the time, when they get married. 

All of that **** is fake. 

I have come to realize that the information that taught me the most about women's sexual nature was really from Marvin Gaye, Barry White and Prince to name a few. Seriously those songs will tell you what women like as far as getting in the mood for sex better then any book you need to read. Barry White was very fat, and Prince was 5' 2". 

Just saying.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Men and women who use game tactics to try to forge an actual relationship are going to end up with people who can be gamed. Do you want to be with such a person?
> ...


In agreement...

If a man thinks “women” are his main problem in life, he needs more help than any one book will cover. 

If he does seek books, he will only become a more healthy man if he reads about things that will help his character as a person, not as a guy who thinks women are preventing him from “getting sex”. If he just seeks “how do I get her to give me sex”, which is the tag line of MMSL, he’s going to remain emotionally stunted. He may indeed “get sex”. And if that alone makes him happy as a man, then he is still not a man a healthy woman wants to be with. 

In many cases, you’ve got a mistmatched relationship that will never be fulfilling to either spouse, and then a guy tries to game his wife from this perspective. It is doomed.

In cases where the couple find more common ground, grow together and find their sex life reignighted, those are people who were healthy enough to get better. If MMSL tipped them in that direction, cool but if they are healthy people they could have applied any number of things that would have worked.

Athol did not come up with any of his book himself. He took game techniques from the PUA world and modified them for marriage versus dating. It’s just as gross either way. Again does it work? Sure maybe sometimes, if you are into having sex with a woman who doesn’t want to have sex with you but can occasionally be gamed into it.


----------



## DjDjani (Feb 10, 2018)

This poster needs mental help,his thinking is just wrong on so many levels. And when he finds out that his wife is cheating on him he will be too ashamed to come here and say that people were right.


----------



## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Playing the Jesus card isn't gonna fix it. Some people will fall back on anything just to have something to believe in.


----------



## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

waynejoey said:


> That's not true. God permits divorce for adultery. So if you caught her cheating in the basement, the bible considers her unclean, and you can divorce. However, if she repented and asked for forgiveness then you would be urged to forgive her as Hosea did. The repenting has to be the real deal though, no backsliding.
> 
> There are no affairs in our marriage, therefore there is no reason for divorce.
> 
> Things are going quite well, she texts me hearts and stuff, we spend a lot of quality time together. I'm happy to get an opportunity to rebuild the relationship in a more Godly way than it was before, rather than starting all over with someone new. This will all pay huge dividends in the long run. No doubt about it, marriage is tough, but you have to persevere and drop the entitlement act. It's a real turn off.


My mother-in-law was excommunicated from the Catholic church (about 30 years ago?) for divorcing her husband because not only was he committing adultery, but he said he wouldn't stop doing it. At least that's the version I got. So maybe the bible says it's OK, but it's typical that a religion chooses what parts of the bible to enforce and what they allow. They told her to honor her marriage vows or don't come back (in simplified terms.) "But he's cheating and won't stop." They said it was because she wasn't a good wife (maybe she wasn't putting out.) Times have changed of course. If Catholics excommunicated everyone that divorced today, they wouldn't have many parishioners left and they certainly want to keep their numbers up.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Faithful Wife said:


> oldshirt said:
> 
> 
> > Have you actually read it?
> ...


That is not the point of his book. His book is geared at men who have become so beta that their own wife has zero attraction to them. Its so friggin common in marriage and why the 'Walk away Wife Syndrome' has become so pervasive. 

Even if what he says is crap, which almost every PUA has plenty of field experience to back him up that it is not, it is a pathway to a better life for the man getting crapped on in his marriage. You work out, run the MAP, and if that doesnt work you find someone better. That simple.

Its not so much about game as improving oneself and if in the process you ignite your wife's fire again, great, if not, you are set up nicely in post divorce.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Its not so much about game as improving oneself and if in the process you ignite your wife's fire again, great, if not, you are set up nicely in post divorce.


Yes to this ^^^^^^

I suspect the people that criticize it the most and claim it to be about hustle and parlor tricks are people that have not actually read it in it's entirety and see it as a book of pick-up lines and game playing. 

The books are not a Playbook on how to play games and use pick-up lines. It is a guide on how to actually change and improve yourself and get your balls back.

One cannot praise "No More Mr Nice Guy" and criticize MMSL in the same paragraph as they both encourage the same thing.

MMSL is basically a nuts and bolts "How-To" guide on how to implement NMMNG in a step by step frame with the outcome more geared to becoming more sexually desirable and hopefully reclaiming a marital sex life.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Even if what he says is crap, which *almost every PUA has plenty of field experience to back him up that it is not[\b], it is a pathway to a better life for the man getting crapped on in his marriage.
> 
> *


*

The only thing PUA experience proves is statistics. Eventually they will pick up a woman given enough attempts. They may have to approach (and get rejected) by 99 women before they get 1 who is interested. And that's assuming they are not picky (any ol' body will work). 

So basing marriage advice on PUA advice, married men should consider a 90% rejection rate (being generous, it's more like 99% using PUA statistics) a success even if the 10% they are getting ranges from poor quality to the occasional great quality. That's pretty awful by most standards.*


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> That is not the point of his book. His book is geared at men who have become so beta that their own wife has zero attraction to them. Its so friggin common in marriage and why the 'Walk away Wife Syndrome' has become so pervasive.
> 
> Even if what he says is crap, which almost every PUA has plenty of field experience to back him up that it is not, it is a pathway to a better life for the man getting crapped on in his marriage. You work out, run the MAP, and if that doesnt work you find someone better. That simple.
> 
> Its not so much about game as improving oneself and if in the process you ignite your wife's fire again, great, if not, you are set up nicely in post divorce.


Did you miss the part where I said I have read it myself? I've actually read it more than once. I had to re-read it because I couldn't believe some of the crap inside. Yep, it was still crap the second time I read it.

There are lots of books. Lots of books for men, that help them.

There is no book that makes a sexual mismatch go away.

There are definitely books that can help a man become more generally healthy and attractive. MMSL isn't one of them, because of the level of hatred and poison that goes alongside the crap.

But sure, have at it! Read it all you want, tell everyone you know they MUST have this book!

Meanwhile, healthy women will be keeping their distance.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> Did you miss the part where I said I have read it myself? I've actually read it more than once. I had to re-read it because I couldn't believe some of the crap inside. Yep, it was still crap the second time I read it.
> 
> There are lots of books. Lots of books for men, that help them.
> 
> ...


Since Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans etc all read the same book and come up with completely different interpretations, I guess I will chalk this up to different interpretation as well. 

I do agree with you that no book can be expected to fix a complete mismatch and MMSL does not say that it will. I believe Athol Kay is quite clear that MMSL will not fix a fundamentally sexually incompatible couple. 

MMSL in my own personal opinion is a bit of a niche market for whom it does help. 

MMSL is geared for couple who did initially have good sexual energy and compatibility and for whom the wife did have a bona fide sexual attraction and desire for the H during dating and early marriage but after years of marriage and kids and the H getting fat and slovenly and lazy and basically just catering to her whims she looses attraction and becomes bored and vulnerable to the attentions of men she finds more exciting and masculine. 

The basic tenets of MMSL is not pick-up lines and "game" and acting "Alpha." 


It is about self-improvement, physical fitness and vitality, a sharper and more mindful physical appearance/grooming/styling/dress, becoming more assertive and more initiative in career and in personal relationship and generally getting off the couch and getting back their own masculinity that they have let slide over the years. 

It's not about 'game' or pretending to be something that they are not - it is getting their own balls back and getting back the man that they used to be when their wife actually was attracted to and desired him. 

Athol Kay himself states quite clearly in his material that if there never was a sincere attraction or desire or sexual compatibility throughout the relationship, that MMSL will probably not change that and may perhaps even make the disconnect worse. 

I don't think it has a thing to do if the wife is healthy or not healthy one way or another. To me it simply makes sense. If a chick was hot for a dude when he had a sixpack and biceps and dressed well and was assertive and flirtatious and ambitious ----- and then 15 years and 3 kids later he is fat and dresses in dirty sweatpants while he plays Xbox and basically just lives to pay rent and put food on the table, then it stands to reason that her level of sexual responsiveness may increase as he loses the weight, dresses better, becomes more engaged in life and engages her more flirtatiously etc etc

And as far as "hatred and poison" in the book, I completely missed that chapter and out of my own curiosity I would be interested in hearing what you see as hatred and toxicity in the book. Please give some examples.


----------



## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

faithful wife said:


> highly sexual female here.
> 
> Mmsl is a pile of crap.
> 
> That is all.


bull****.....


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Lila said:


> The only thing PUA experience proves is statistics. Eventually they will pick up a woman given enough attempts. They may have to approach (and get rejected) by 99 women before they get 1 who is interested. And that's assuming they are not picky (any ol' body will work).
> 
> So basing marriage advice on PUA advice, married men should consider a 90% rejection rate (being generous, it's more like 99% using PUA statistics) a success even if the 10% they are getting ranges from poor quality to the occasional great quality. That's pretty awful by most standards.


Again, have you actually read MMSL????

Yes, Athol Kay did delve into a variety of PUA material and integrate some of that information into his material. 

But that doesn't necessarily mean pick-up lines and approaches and hitting on 100 women in hopes that one will take the offer. 

Much of what he integrated into his material from the PUA community was defining various traits and characteristics and behaviors that women tend to respond to sexually. 

Much of that was definitely not rocket science. A lot of it was downright obvious. Things like looking good, dressing well, being fit and healthy and vigorous, having clean nails, no visible nose and ear hair, not being fat and obese or being a slob etc etc. 

And others were things like being ambitious and passionate and assertive and showing initiative and not allowing oneself to be pushed around or manipulated etc etc. 

Many of those things are self-evident and no-brainers to young, single men. But what made MMSL different was getting through to married men that even though they may have got the girl and rode off into the sunset with her - that doesn't mean that she is still going to desire you 10, 15 years later after you have gained 65 lbs and your evenings are spent on the couch playing Xbox. 

Many men have been raised to believe if they have a good job, pay the rent, bring home a check and provide insurance, that their wives should continue to love and desire them sexually even if they let themselves go. Many men have also been raised to believe that if they do everything their wives say and clean house and do dishes and change a diaper every now and then, that their wives "should" love and desire them. 

MMSL breaks that mold and basically says that a wife and mother is still going to be sexually responsive to muscles, six-packs, well dressed, well groomed man who still has passion for life and is still ambitious and assertive and doesn't take crap off of anyone --------- including her. 

MMSL isn't about being a PUA and picking up chicks. It's about getting back to being the man that attracted his wife in the first place and getting back those traits and characteristics and behaviors that actually turned her on that have fallen by the wayside after years of marriage and parenthood.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Speaking as a Moderator:

You are free to discuss MMSLP until the cows come home...on it's own thread. 

If you aren't talking to Bobert, you are likely perpetuating a thread jack.

It stops now. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Speaking as a Moderator:
> 
> You are free to discuss MMSLP until the cows come home...on it's own thread.
> 
> ...


You know this isn't Boberts thread, right?


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Faithful Wife said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > That is not the point of his book. His book is geared at men who have become so beta that their own wife has zero attraction to them. Its so friggin common in marriage and why the 'Walk away Wife Syndrome' has become so pervasive.
> ...


There is rarely ever a sexual mismatch. But their are beta men that have wives that wouldnt touch them with a 10 foot pole.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Make that WJ. 

Thanks for keeping me straight, NF.


Nucking Futs said:


> You know this isn't Boberts thread, right?


Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Did Jesus get him laid yet? After all the "one who shows the way" dresses in bed sheets. That has to mean something.


----------



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Mr.Married said:


> Did Jesus get him laid yet? After all the "one who shows the way" dresses in bed sheets. That has to mean something.


Have you ever heard about the boy who wanted a bicycle and he prayed for months but never got one.
So he stole someone else’s bicycle.
And prayed for forgiveness.
Just a different type of ride.....


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Speaking as a Moderator:
> 
> You are free to discuss MMSLP until the cows come home...on it's own thread.
> 
> ...


Waynejoey (the OP of this thread) is the one who brought up MMSL himself a page or so back so I figured it to be germane to this discussion.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Tricky business, this moderating...especially when I lead off by getting the OP incorrect.

Is the discussion germane? Sure.

That said, a thread jack is sort of like porn. I may not be able to exactly define when it crosses the line, but I sure know it when I see it.

There have been more threads derailed over this one book than I can count. This is why I nipped it in the bud.

The simplest way to make sure you don't derail the thread is by addressing the OP.


oldshirt said:


> Waynejoey (the OP of this thread) is the one who brought up MMSL himself a page or so back so I figured it to be germane to this discussion.


Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> Tricky business, this moderating...especially when I lead off by getting the OP incorrect.
> 
> Is the discussion germane? Sure.
> 
> ...


No worries man !!! Us kids love to test the teacher >>>>>>>

It's like 1000 to 1 in here ....your allowed a slip now and then Bobert ....uummm...I mean farsidejunky


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Mr.Married said:


> Did Jesus get him laid yet? After all the "one who shows the way" dresses in bed sheets. That has to mean something.


I'm glad it worked for me. You know, him sending me a good wife who lights my fire after 25 years and me being around this planet for seven decades. Before that, the devil sent me other men's wives to wine and dine me with their husbands money.


----------



## waynejoey (Jun 8, 2018)

Lots of posts to keep up with, I'm going to skip the quoting this time around. I like Mr.Married's comment about Jesus, the answer is yes!

So anyway... case closed on this thread. My wife and I have fully reconciled and we made passionate love several times this weekend. We have been having more and more fun together and are very affectionate which is what has helped us escalate back to true intimacy.

Things in the past that would cause us to fight or get in a bad mood no longer phases us. We are able to parent together with a steady hand, keep up with the chores, and then be romantic when we can make alone time. Our communication is transparent and healthy.

Looking back, I'm happy for this trial, because it set us on a path to self-improvement which would ultimately create the type of marriage we need to have. There were certainly many dark moments for both of us, but we persevered. These breakthroughs would have not been possible without fully trusting the teachings of our savior.

Let this my testimony to all those lacking faith, facing depression, swallowed by hopelessness. God can un-break those chains... if you follow Him.


----------



## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

waynejoey said:


> Lots of posts to keep up with, I'm going to skip the quoting this time around. I like Mr.Married's comment about Jesus, the answer is yes!
> 
> So anyway... case closed on this thread. My wife and I have fully reconciled and we made passionate love several times this weekend. We have been having more and more fun together and are very affectionate which is what has helped us escalate back to true intimacy.
> 
> ...


Mark4:35-41

Glad to see you rebuked the wind and made it safely to distant shores. 

Best Luck 0


On another note:

I passed a group of priest coming the other way on the side walk the other day. Not one turned to check me out ......I must be getting old. >


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Lila said:


> The only thing PUA experience proves is statistics. Eventually they will pick up a woman given enough attempts. They may have to approach (and get rejected) by 99 women before they get 1 who is interested. And that's assuming they are not picky (any ol' body will work).
> 
> So basing marriage advice on PUA advice, married men should consider a 90% rejection rate (being generous, it's more like 99% using PUA statistics) a success even if the 10% they are getting ranges from poor quality to the occasional great quality. That's pretty awful by most standards.


It is a shame that we [too often] rate people as poor quality, medium quality, high quality.

While this 'seems' useful in 'picking' another, it is hurtful in application.
What terrible thoughts these are.

I prefer saying we should choose people who are more compatible....than not.

There are not really any princes and princesses among us. 
Or there shouldn't be.

Thinking otherwise makes us the 'entitled' fools we berate on TAM.


Just Sayin'




SunCMars-


----------

