# Chump Lady Article: Why Women Cheat?



## Truthseeker1

Why Women Cheat?

by Chump Lady on May 14, 2014

Anyone see this on HuffPo?

Why do women cheat? A new survey from Victoria Milan — a dating site for married people seeking affairs — suggests it’s because they find their partner really, really annoying. (And apparently, the only way to cope with that is to hook up with another dude.)

The website polled 6,000 women on the site and a whopping 73 percent of the ladies said the chief reason they cheated was because they were annoyed by their partner’s character flaws and behavior. The number one complaint the women brought up? A lackluster sense of humor, at 19 percent.

Unsurprisingly, more than half of the women admitted they were looking for a lover who did not possess the trait they found so obnoxious in their partner.

Below, the 10 most irritating behaviors that the women cited as excuses for cheating:

1. He lacks a sense of humor (19%)
2. He’s not understanding enough (16%)
3. He’s not good in bed (14%)
4. He lacks good manners (11%)
5. He’s lazy and doesn’t have any life plans (10%)
6. He doesn’t care about his appearance and has poor hygiene (9%)
7. He’s not successful (7%)
8. He doesn’t pay enough attention to details and social obligations (5%)
9. He’s unable to clean up after himself and he’s a mama’s boy (5%)
10. He’s stingy (4%)

(Read the rest here)


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## MSP

So, HuffPo basically ran a subtle advertorial for a cheating site. Classy, HuffPo. 

I have to say that those are the feeblest excuses I've ever seen for cheating. I mean, when someone says that their spouse yells at them or never gives them sex, I can understand (though not agree with) their cheating. I think, "Well, that was the wrong choice, but I get why you did it". But, "bad manners"--are you kidding me? 

I enjoyed what Chump Lady had to say. I hadn't read any of her articles before. Chump Lady is absolutely right when she says these are all lame excuses for entitled women doing what they like and forget everyone else. 

The top three excuses are particularly weak justifications. My interpretations:

1. He lacks a sense of humour.

_He is responsible for entertaining me and if I feel bored I am entitled to bang the neighbour_.

2. He’s not understanding enough.

_Sometimes I don't get my own way. _

3. He’s not good in bed.

_I lie there and think of other guys while he does his thing instead of communicating, but it's his fault. Why can't he be more exciting, like the bad boys I hooked up with in college, instead of just reliable and nice?_

Some of the excuses--especially the laziness and poor hygiene--could actually be legitimate concerns, but they're still not reason enough for cheating.


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## HarryDoyle

Meh. In fact double meh. Not one of those reasons on that list was on my WW's reasons for cheating. Maybe number 2, but that's so freaking subjective, I mean what WS thinks their BS is understanding enough? That list is just a bunch of lame excuses, not true reasons for cheating. No help to me at all.

FWIW: If your getting your relationship advice from Huffpo, or any advice for that matter, you probably want to look somewhere else.


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## EI

Anyone see this on HuffPo

Why do women cheat? A new survey from Victoria Milan — a dating site for married people seeking affairs — suggests it’s because they find their partner really, really annoying. (And apparently, the only way to cope with that is to hook up with another dude.)

The website polled 6,000 women on the site and a whopping 73 percent of the ladies said the chief reason they cheated was because they were annoyed by their partner’s character flaws and behavior. The number one complaint the women brought up? A lackluster sense of humor, at 19 percent.

Unsurprisingly, more than half of the women admitted they were looking for a lover who did not possess the trait they found so obnoxious in their partner.

Below, the 10 most irritating behaviors that the women cited as excuses for cheating:

1. He lacks a sense of humor (19%)
2. He’s not understanding enough (16%)
3. He’s not good in bed (14%)
4. He lacks good manners (11%)
5. He’s lazy and doesn’t have any life plans (10%)
6. He doesn’t care about his appearance and has poor hygiene (9%)
7. He’s not successful (7%)
8. He doesn’t pay enough attention to details and social obligations (5%)
9. He’s unable to clean up after himself and he’s a mama’s boy (5%)
10. He’s stingy (4%)

Where to begin? I love that cheaters are annoyed by “character flaws” — that’s a hoot! And I’m also wondering why every “married dating site” (cough) is named like some Harlequin romance character — Victoria Milan? ****** *******? They never name these things Cheryl Schultz. No, Victoria Milan is a classy hooker with a heart of gold. ****** ******* is a plucky real estate agent with a fondness for garter belts under her business attire. Seduce her right and she’ll go spread eagle at the title and loans.

These married dating site PR people sure know how to pitch. To the idiot women who want to live a Harlequin romance fantasy (I‘m not a Martha — I’m an ******!), and to all the men avoiding the Cheryl’s in their lives. Those drab women who get **** done.

Oh, and “married dating sites”? That’s like saying “gambling den savings” or “peaceful flame thrower” — it’s an oxymoron, you moron. You don’t “date” while married. That’s called “cheating.” But I guess “cheating site” doesn’t sound as sexy, even if you name it Victoria Milan.

Anyway… why women cheat.

Because, guys, you don’t have a sense of humor.

I know, I know — there you were being a grown up, working a job, paying bills and cleaning the gutters. It wasn’t a chuckle fest. It’s hard to be witty when the baby wakes you up at 3 a.m. But work on it, okay? Maybe you should consider an improv class. Or juggling. Or maybe one of those bowties that squirts water?

Could clown college affair proof your marriage?

Just throwing out suggestions — because if you don’t keep things light and breezy around here, she’s going to be boinking her co-worker Chip. Fail at the funny and there are reasons 2 through 10 to cheat on you as well. On your toes, gentleman! Don’t annoy the ladies or its chumpdom for you!

Did anyone notice that most of these items are pure projection? Not understanding enough? Lazy and doesn’t have life plans? Doesn’t pay enough attention to details and social obligations?

Really Victoria? How many social obligations are you attending to while you’re off ****ing Chip? Huh? Do you find yourself attending to the details of childcare while you are conducting an affair?

And good manners? Seriously? A guy doesn’t hold open the car door for you and you’re liable to **** his best friend? You think THAT is mannerly? You think Emily Post has a section of etiquette for whoring around on your husband? Put down your seafood fork and think for a minute. Cheating is BAD MANNERS. No, hit yourself with the seafood fork.* You are bad! Bad! Bad!*

Stop making excuses for your ****ty behavior. His untrimmed toenails did not drive you to cheater dating sites. Your entitlement did. Your inability to deal like a grown up with the little disappointments and imperfections of life. God knows there is some faithful chump somewhere putting up with your **** — your hair in the drain, your lazy ass on the sofa, and your inability to find Will Ferrell funny — and he’s not cheating on you.

For the love of God, get a divorce. We could use some faithful guys in the dating pool. And you can continue your eternal quest for a characterless cheater who makes you laugh.

Best of luck, *idiot.*


I went ahead and took the liberty of copying the entire column from the TAM and Huffington Post renowned Chump Lady. To be honest, I think the biggest "chumps" are her faithful readers. You see, she, and her high priced, divorce lawyer, hubby (hubby #2, of course, because without hubby #1, there would be no Chump Lady, at all) make big bucks off of us _"bad! Bad! Bad! Idiots."_

Her hubby makes his big bucks off of handling big money divorces. And, the Chump Lady makes hers off of continuously stirring the venom pot, of those who have been affected by infidelity, in her regular column/blog/whatever it is, :scratchhead: in The Huffington Post. To quote the famous line from a Seinfeld episode, "Not that there's anything wrong with that!" And, I suppose there isn't...... _really_??? But, what exactly is _good_ about her column? Well, it's probably a _very good_ source of income for the Chump Lady, and her high-priced divorce lawyer hubby! In fact, it may even help keep her hubby's business booming by providing an ongoing, and steady source of disgruntled, stirred, and shaken clientele! And, that, too, would be _very good_ for the Chump Lady, indeed! 

It must be a virtual hate-fest, at their home, in the evenings, what with all of their certain comparing of notes about the _"Bad! Bad! Badness! of all idiot cheaters." _ I do hope that Chump Lady's son, with the idiot cheater that is Chump's former husband, is not frequently present for all of these conversations. After all, that _bad! Bad! Bad! idiot _cheater is his father. And, contrary to what is often posted on TAM, many children of cheaters do, in fact, love their imperfect and flawed parents, both of their imperfect and flawed parents. And, contrary to another often posted myth on TAM, there are parents who cheat, have cheated, or will cheat, who love their children with every ounce of their being. If only perfect, sinless people were capable of loving their children, then NO ONE would be qualified. 

Now, I confess, that I am NOT a regular reader of Chump Lady's venom spewing drivel, but from what I have seen, Chump seems to know an awful lot about the mind of a cheater, without actually having ever been one herself. Obviously, I'm in a _mood_ tonight. :ezpi_wink1: Still, I don't intend to take apart this particular post, item-by-item. But, I will say, as a former cheater, (so I suppose that "qualifies" me) that this list of ten items (while they are not exactly desirable qualities in a mate) are NOT the reasons that people cheat. Anyone who believes that cheating is not far more complicated than that, well, then they are the idiot! I understand that the Chump did not author this list, and that it came from a Victoria Milan survey, but in reprinting it in her column, she is attempting to give it credibility.

And, finally, Chump Lady, though I regrettably, eventually, choose selfishness, as a coping mechanism, during a time when I felt very sad, lonely, hopeless, defeated, demoralized, and broken, before, during, and after my affair, (for quite some time) I am not, was not, and never will be _bad! Bad! Bad!_ Nor am I an idiot. You declaring that I (as a FWS) am, does not make it so. It makes you a foul-mouthed *****. Neither does my declaring that about you make it so. A quick glance at your column/drivel is all that is necessary to confirm it. 

I'm feeling much better now! I may actually get a good night of rest tonight!


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## MSP

EI said:


> I will say, as a former cheater, (so I suppose that "qualifies" me) that this list of ten items (while they are not exactly desirable qualities in a mate) are NOT the reasons that people cheat. Anyone who believes that cheating is not far more complicated than that, well, then they are the idiot!


Come to think of it, the survey would almost definitely have been multiple choice, with the answers already chosen by VM's marketing people in order to reinforce to their clients why they should have affairs. So, I agree that those answers are probably not at all reflective of what goes through a cheating spouse's mind.

I would guess they ran the survey and then contacted HuffPo to have the piece written there as a part of their marketing campaign. I've been published in magazines and blogs professionally and they all run on behind-the-scenes quid pro quo stuff.


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## NextTimeAround

> Now, I confess, that I am NOT a regular reader of Chump Lady's venom spewing drivel, but from what I have seen, Chump seems to know an awful lot about the mind of a cheater, without actually having ever been one herself.


I have dealt with enough manipulative people over the years that I can see manipulation far sooner than when I was younger. This doesn't make me manipulative.

Just being the object of someone else's cheating ways, maneuvers, tactics can make you see more clearly the next time it happens.


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## Forest

I actually emailed a question to Chump Lady recently. She replied right away, and had quickly and deftly dissected the issue down to the bone. Laid it out like scientific theory.

Agree with her or not, she is obviously very smart, good with words and arguments, and steadfast in her opinions.


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## Truthseeker1

Forest said:


> I actually emailed a question to Chump Lady recently. She replied right away, and had quickly and deftly dissected the issue down to the bone. Laid it out like scientific theory.
> 
> Agree with her or not, she is obviously very smart, good with words and arguments, and steadfast in her opinions.


:iagree: I like her columns and the way she lays out her argument. She does not sugarcoat it, so her approach might ruffle some feathers. The thing is her columns seem to spark discussion - you don't have to agree with her but she does make you think.


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## alphaomega

This thread should be entitled "Chumo Lady responds to article..."

I was confused at the title, since an article about why you need to cheat would be way out of the normal genre for anything on her column.


As it seems....
6000 respondents? Of cours they will all say the same thing. Al respondents were from the cheating website.

Go to a 1000 bars at 9am in the morning, and ask all the barflys "is drinking justified, and why?". I'm sure you'll get 6000 respondents saying its completely justified, with a top ten list of why you need to drink yourself stupid at 9am.


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## chumplady

Hey EI, for someone who doesn't read me, you sure seem to think you know a lot about me.

_Now, I confess, that I am NOT a regular reader of Chump Lady's venom spewing drivel, but from what I have seen, Chump seems to know an awful lot about the mind of a cheater, without actually having ever been one herself. _

For the record, my husband isn't a divorce attorney -- he's a civil rights attorney, plaintiff's side only. He represents poor people who are fired for race, gender, pregnancy discrimination etc. and people injured on the job. He doesn't take a cent from his clients and works on a contingency fee basis -- meaning he only collects if he settles the case. (Which means he's really great at what he does.) Hardly ANYONE does this work, and next to no one does it contingency fee only in the state of Texas. (The only state that doesn't require workers comp and is a right to work state.) In short, he's David fighting Goliath every day. With his own damn money.

You don't have to like me, but you take a pot shot at my husband -- I'll take you on. 

How do I know about cheating and manipulation? I was married to a serial cheater once. I'm a chump. Says so in the name, "Chump Lady." And for the record, HuffPo doesn't pay and I make next to no money on my blog. Negative cash flow actually -- Amazon ads and donations are the sole income. I work as a freelance writer in my other life. 

Next time, make an informed opinion.


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## carpenoctem

To: Chump Lady:

You turned a very bad experience in your life into a source of thought and expression, service and empowerment. You turned a phase of shame and sadness in your life into an effective tool of discourse.

That’s the best way to emerge from this kind of chaos, I guess. Or, that is the best revenge (if at all you wanted it) you could have taken on someone who made you feel less than yourself. Congratulations.

*Perhaps you WERE a chump. But now, you are a champ.*
(Of course, there will be agreements and disagreements. But now, you have the power to spark them off).

Hats off to your husband too. Just out of curiosity, did he propose, or did you?


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## russell28

1. He lacks a sense of humor (19%)
He was funny when you were interested in him, and not interested in the guy at work.. who is making you laugh these days because he's the one you're spending time with and talking to instead of your husband.

2. He’s not understanding enough (16%)
*Because you're not honest with him. It's hard to understand what you don't know. It's not easy to understand when you're being left in the dark and manipulated and lied to.
*
3. He’s not good in bed (14%)
*You're not exactly a porn star yourself..
*
4. He lacks good manners (11%)
*But the guy at work is polite, he says 'please can we get a motel room?'
*
5. He’s lazy and doesn’t have any life plans (10%)
*Usually has bought a house, car, raised kids, provides food, clothing.. no life plans to rent a motel for two hours on friday like the OM has. He plans on staying with his wife and banging someone on the side, like you.. you both have big life plans. F up everyone's lives around you. That's what a non lazy person would do, take the easy way out.
*
6. He doesn’t care about his appearance and has poor hygiene (9%)
*He will once he gets a girlfriend, it seems once you get the boyfriend you start caring more.
*
7. He’s not successful (7%)
*OM is successful though, at getting into your pants.*

8. He doesn’t pay enough attention to details and social obligations (5%)
*Details like flirting up the women at work? Social obligations like asking them to a motel for a few hours?*

9. He’s unable to clean up after himself and he’s a mama’s boy (5%)
*Does OM clean up for you? Was he a mommas boy when you married him, or is this a new development?*

10. He’s stingy (4%)
*Not sharing himself the way you are? He should give himself to others more often..*

(Read the rest here)

Hey ladies from this pole (sp).. find a mirror, take a good long look in it.


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## Fenix

Liked this part the best.
"*Stop making excuses for your ****ty behavior*. His untrimmed toenails did not drive you to cheater dating sites. Your entitlement did. Your inability to deal like a grown up with the little disappointments and imperfections of life. God knows there is some faithful chump somewhere putting up with your **** — your hair in the drain, your lazy ass on the sofa, and your inability to find Will Ferrell funny — and he’s not cheating on you.

For the love of God, get a divorce. We could use some faithful guys in the dating pool. And you can continue your eternal quest for a characterless cheater who makes you laugh."

I am a reader of Chump Lady and agree with the vast majority of what she says. But, I am not a cheater. I am sure that it must be very uncomfortable to read if you are a cheater (even a repentant one).


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## chillymorn

just like all cheater male or female they need some sort of reason to explain their behaivor.

because inside the are shallow cowards. Instead of saying this isn't working for me I think we should divorce they cheat and still let their spouce feel like everythings ok as they reap the benfits of a marriage.


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## chumplady

*carpenoctem* -- weird question, but my husband proposed to me.


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## chumplady

As to the point of the article posted, I think it is the rare cheater who says "I cheated because I wanted to. Because I valued my own pleasure and narcissistic supply over your well-being. I cheated because the warning bells in my head didn't go off. I felt entitled."

That's ugly and unflattering, so they come up with these weird ass excuses like "He doesn't have a sense of humor." 

JMHO.


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## Forest

Hah, great to see you here Tracy.

I wanted to mention that you passed the same test that I give doctors. Unless I can tell that they are smarter than me, I generally won't listen to them. (most pass the test, of course)

After our brief email exchange, I realized your are someone I'd listen to.


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## Truthseeker1

Fenix said:


> Liked this part the best.
> "*Stop making excuses for your ****ty behavior*. His untrimmed toenails did not drive you to cheater dating sites. Your entitlement did. Your inability to deal like a grown up with the little disappointments and imperfections of life. God knows there is some faithful chump somewhere putting up with your **** — your hair in the drain, your lazy ass on the sofa, and your inability to find Will Ferrell funny — and he’s not cheating on you.
> 
> For the love of God, get a divorce. We could use some faithful guys in the dating pool. And you can continue your eternal quest for a characterless cheater who makes you laugh."
> 
> *I am a reader of Chump Lady and agree with the vast majority of what she says. But, I am not a cheater. I am sure that it must be very uncomfortable to read if you are a cheater (even a repentant one).*


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## russell28

They should have added some options to the pole(sp) like:

I cheated because I was bored and wanted to spice up my life like in movies and romance novels.

I cheated because my mommy and grandmommy taught me that's what good girls do. Men are things we use for our pleasure as we see fit.

I cheated because it felt good to sneak and lie to people that love me. It made me feel empowered and in control.

I cheated because it felt awesome to have two guys wanting and needing me.

I cheated because it was easy and I thought I wouldn't get caught.

I cheated because I wanted some strange, someone different.

I cheated because I have low self esteem and little self respect.

I cheated because the opportunity presented itself.

I cheated because I have poor self control and weak boundaries.

I cheated because I'm a c**k tease and someone finally called me on it.

I cheated because I knew he'd forgive me if he found out, he's such a beta chump.


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## Truthseeker1

russell28 said:


> They should have added some options to the pole(sp) like:
> 
> I cheated because I was bored and wanted to spice up my life like in movies and romance novels.
> 
> I cheated because my mommy and grandmommy taught me that's what good girls do. Men are things we use for our pleasure as we see fit.
> 
> I cheated because it felt good to sneak and lie to people that love me. It made me feel empowered and in control.
> 
> I cheated because it felt awesome to have two guys wanting and needing me.
> 
> I cheated because it was easy and I thought I wouldn't get caught.
> 
> I cheated because I wanted some strange, someone different.
> 
> I cheated because I have low self esteem and little self respect.
> 
> I cheated because the opportunity presented itself.
> 
> I cheated because I have poor self control and weak boundaries.
> 
> I cheated because I'm a c**k tease and someone finally called me on it.
> 
> I cheated because I knew he'd forgive me if he found out, he's such a beta chump.


Basically it is "I cheated because I chose to." End of story.

Reconciling does not make a man beta - when a man does what he thinks is right despite the obstacles he is being strong - it is when he rolls over and tries to nice his spouse back and grovels that he is being a "beta" in my opinion. 

Love your posts...


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## russell28

Here's a comment from the article. They should have consulted kimmy for the list 

------------------------
kimmy May 14, 2014 at 8:19 am

Absolutely appalling!!!! I would venture to guess that these so called women (aka *****s) live in a world with no mirrors. They have never seriously looked at themselves and were honest about their own flaws. WE ALL HAVE THEM! And……why on earth did they marry men who had such irritating behaviors??? (said sarcastically) WTF?? This has me extremely annoyed this morning!!!

Here are my ten reasons why women cheat……
1. No moral compass
2. No empathy for others
3. No compassion
4. No brains
5. No manners
6. Attention *****
7. Entitlement issues
8. Enjoys cake
9. Low self esteem
10. BECAUSE SHE CAN!!!!


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## carpenoctem

carpenoctem said:


> carpenoctem -- weird question, but my husband proposed to me.


I was wondering just how much being married to a serial cheater before that might have affected your belief in your own judgement about people and relationships. Whether at one point, you might have wanted to propose to him, but you held back because of this factor. Just a thought. Didn’t mean to be intrusive.


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## chumplady

No, I was able to trust again. That's actually the topic of today's post -- trusting again. How Do You Trust Again?


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## carpenoctem

*following is a REAL list of reasons given by some people who chose to cheat:*
(I guess it's from a counselor's diary):


It wasn’t cheating because in my mind we were already broken up.

*I didn’t know you cared that much, you could’ve fooled me.*

I was confused about what I wanted.

I’m sorry you got mad.

I figured it was don’t ask, don’t tell. Yeah you asked, but I never did, I’d rather not know, but that’s just me.

I didn’t mean relationship the way you’re defining it. 

My ex was a really important part of my life for a long time, I’ll always have some feelings, it’s natural.

*I didn’t even know you guys were good friends.*

I felt super awkward, I didn’t know what to do.

We slept in the same bed but we didn’t do anything, I swear. 

I just needed a place to crash, that’s it.

*I worry that you’re too good for me, and that you’ll dump me.* 

I guess I got defensive and kinda freaked out.

*You never cheated on me? I find that hard to believe.*

My last relationship was really messed up. I admit I’m still dealing with that.

I am so a good person! I just screwed up. Everybody screws up sometimes, or are you perfect?

I don’t think I ever said that. I was just looking to have fun, so I don’t know why I would have said I wanted to date you.

*You’re going abroad next semester, I guess I was trying to adapt to that. It’s going to be really hard for me when you leave.*

*I’m dealing with some issues you don’t know about right now.* 

No, I don’t want to talk about them, I just need a little time to work sh*t out. (Dating new person within 48 hours.)

It wasn’t cheating because *we’d had a fight that night, and I figured we were broken up until I got your text the next morning.*

Whoa, you’re crazy!

You’re freaking me out right now, you’re acting psycho.

It’s no big deal, you’re just making drama for no reason.

I was blacked out, I swear. I’d never do anything like that sober.

I don’t know why he/she said that, there’s nothing going on.

Whoever told you that is crazy or jealous, don’t listen to them.

I thought I wanted to be in a relationship with you, but after we hooked up I realized I didn’t.

I don’t consider making out cheating.

We’re just friends. Don’t you ever hang out with friends alone? Do I ask you about every single person I see you out with?

*She sat on my lap, what was I supposed to do? I didn’t want to be a jerk.*

*He/she kissed me. I didn’t want to make a scene so I just went along for a little bit.*

I said I’d go to his weekend formal because he really, really needs a date. *Don’t worry, I told him we won’t need privacy in the room.*

With graduation coming up, I freaked out about what it would mean to stay together. I needed to see if I really want to commit to you. Um, I guess I decided we should break up. (Dating new person within 48 hours.)

I admit I handled it badly, but I don’t see what was so wrong.
*You know you would have cheated eventually, you’re just mad that I did it first.*

*Everyone knows you put up with cheating before, now all of a sudden you have a higher standard? That’s not fair to me.*

I’ve been burned before. I’m sorry I took it out on you, but I don’t trust people very easily.


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## LongWalk

Chump Lady, you're alright if you ask me. And you are a good writer. Counts for something, doesn't it?

Who are are you favorite TAM posters?

Is TAM a gold mine for column material?

Cheating and cheaters are one of life's bummers. Is cheating the worst transgression in a marriage?

Do cheaters reform? What percentage?


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## GTdad

chumplady said:


> Hey EI, for someone who doesn't read me, you sure seem to think you know a lot about me.
> 
> _Now, I confess, that I am NOT a regular reader of Chump Lady's venom spewing drivel, but from what I have seen, Chump seems to know an awful lot about the mind of a cheater, without actually having ever been one herself. _
> 
> For the record, my husband isn't a divorce attorney -- he's a civil rights attorney, plaintiff's side only. He represents poor people who are fired for race, gender, pregnancy discrimination etc. and people injured on the job. He doesn't take a cent from his clients and works on a contingency fee basis -- meaning he only collects if he settles the case. (Which means he's really great at what he does.) Hardly ANYONE does this work, and next to no one does it contingency fee only in the state of Texas. (The only state that doesn't require workers comp and is a right to work state.) In short, he's David fighting Goliath every day. With his own damn money.
> 
> You don't have to like me, but you take a pot shot at my husband -- I'll take you on.
> 
> How do I know about cheating and manipulation? I was married to a serial cheater once. I'm a chump. Says so in the name, "Chump Lady." And for the record, HuffPo doesn't pay and I make next to no money on my blog. Negative cash flow actually -- Amazon ads and donations are the sole income. I work as a freelance writer in my other life.
> 
> Next time, make an informed opinion.


I wonder if I've ever had a case with him. It seems entirely possible.


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## russell28

I can see where you'd say anyone that's still throwing that bull around expecting anyone to buy it is an idiot or bad.. I can also see where someone that finally admits to themselves, that they were full of it isn't an idiot. I think much of the tone of the article, "idiot" for example, refers to how a BS feels when we find out our spouse burned the house down, and we ask why and they say it's because we never picked up after ourselves or because our jokes got stale. It doesn't seem directed towards those that 'get it', but more for those that are still self deluding with 'reasons' like "it was your fault because you stopped being funny". I know I would have bought clown shoes and some silly string had I known..


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## MRABoysHaveSmallPeanut

I'll say since no one else dare. 

*EI *I think you owe a public apology to *chumplady*. It must hurt to be called out on your cheating ways but that was some incorrect venom you spread yourself. IMHO.


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## JustGrinding

MRABoysHaveSmallPeanut said:


> I'll say since no one else dare.
> 
> *EI *I think you owe a public apology to *chumplady*. It must hurt to be called out on your cheating ways but that was some incorrect venom you spread yourself. IMHO.


I don't think an apology is required, and don't think it particularly venomous. It's just the blogosphere equivalent of a hit-dog hollerin.'


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## russell28

chumplady handled it pretty well herself.. I didn't feel a need to jump to her defense. EI gets good will around here too, sounds like she was having a bad day and was venting.. I know I've been there. If I had to apologize every time I vent on here, I'd have to create an apology thread. I also kind of figure it's coming, because EI doesn't hide, she's not a bad person or an idiot.


----------



## ConanHub

POSTED BY EI.

And, contrary to another often posted myth on TAM, there are parents who cheat, have cheated, or will cheat, who love their children with every ounce of their being. If only perfect, sinless people were capable of loving their children, then NO ONE would be qualified. 
END QUOTE:

I would call it no myth. My mother was hardly loving her kids in the midst of her sexual misconduct. She was loving herself far more.

I won't speak to your feelings, but actions speak loud to me. I believe anyone who cheats has hit a low point for loving others.

To me, love is self sacrificing, cheating is always, without fail, self serving.


----------



## ConanHub

Truthseeker1 said:


> Why Women Cheat?
> 
> by Chump Lady on May 14, 2014
> 
> Anyone see this on HuffPo?
> 
> Why do women cheat? A new survey from Victoria Milan — a dating site for married people seeking affairs — suggests it’s because they find their partner really, really annoying. (And apparently, the only way to cope with that is to hook up with another dude.)
> 
> The website polled 6,000 women on the site and a whopping 73 percent of the ladies said the chief reason they cheated was because they were annoyed by their partner’s character flaws and behavior. The number one complaint the women brought up? A lackluster sense of humor, at 19 percent.
> 
> Unsurprisingly, more than half of the women admitted they were looking for a lover who did not possess the trait they found so obnoxious in their partner.
> 
> Below, the 10 most irritating behaviors that the women cited as excuses for cheating:
> 
> 1. He lacks a sense of humor (19%)
> 2. He’s not understanding enough (16%)
> 3. He’s not good in bed (14%)
> 4. He lacks good manners (11%)
> 5. He’s lazy and doesn’t have any life plans (10%)
> 6. He doesn’t care about his appearance and has poor hygiene (9%)
> 7. He’s not successful (7%)
> 8. He doesn’t pay enough attention to details and social obligations (5%)
> 9. He’s unable to clean up after himself and he’s a mama’s boy (5%)
> 10. He’s stingy (4%)
> 
> (Read the rest here)


11. He has extremely poor taste in women. (100%)


----------



## stevehowefan

It's been a while since wieners were brought into the discussion on TAM. Where would wiener size fall? Would that be in the "not good in bed" category? Not srs.


----------



## jim123

ConanHub said:


> POSTED BY EI.
> 
> And, contrary to another often posted myth on TAM, there are parents who cheat, have cheated, or will cheat, who love their children with every ounce of their being. If only perfect, sinless people were capable of loving their children, then NO ONE would be qualified.
> END QUOTE:
> 
> I would call it no myth. My mother was hardly loving her kids in the midst of her sexual misconduct. She was loving herself far more.
> 
> I won't speak to your feelings, but actions speak loud to me. I believe anyone who cheats has hit a low point for loving others.
> 
> To me, love is self sacrificing, cheating is always, without fail, self serving.


I know good people who have cheated and horrible people who have not.


----------



## jim123

russell28 said:


> chumplady handled it pretty well herself.. I didn't feel a need to jump to her defense. EI gets good will around here too, sounds like she was having a bad day and was venting.. I know I've been there. If I had to apologize every time I vent on here, I'd have to create an apology thread. I also kind of figure it's coming, because EI doesn't hide, she's not a bad person or an idiot.


EI is objection to using a survey of a sub group of cheaters and applying the results to everyone.

Such an analysis can only foster more pain and hatred. It moves all of us from a greater understanding of ourselves in an effort to make us better people.

If your WS cheated using AM this would apply, otherwise you can turn off comedy central as part of your r plans.


----------



## rustytheboyrobot

"He was helping me figure out what I needed."

"It was only really bad for the first year."

"You're being delusional. You're delusional."

"You are lazy and don't support me in the things I want."

"You're fat, ugly, and unattractive and you_ always were_."

"He was helping our marriage."

"You're not a _real man._"


----------



## ConanHub

jim123 said:


> I know good people who have cheated and horrible people who have not.


Beyond a shadow of a doubt, your definition of good differs so greatly from my own as to render a coherent conversation between us impossible.

In my book, good people get tempted but don't, others get tempted and do.

I do however, believe currently good people could have been formerly horrible and changed for the better. I have seen that often.

Someone in the midst of cheating is hardly at a point I could refer to as being good for anyone.

There are many horrible things people can do and cheating is certainly high on that list.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## russell28

jim123 said:


> EI is objection to using a survey of a sub group of cheaters and applying the results to everyone.
> 
> Such an analysis can only foster more pain and hatred. It moves all of us from a greater understanding of ourselves in an effort to make us better people.
> 
> If your WS cheated using AM this would apply, otherwise you can turn off comedy central as part of your r plans.


It sounded like EI had an issue with cheaters being called bad and idiots.. The chumplady blog is directed at people like Daisy, that can't get away from an abusive cheater, to help them detach. I have no issue calling someone that's cheating on a spouse a bad person or an idiot, if they stop cheating, then I might stop calling them a bad idiot. What fosters pain and hatred is when a cheater abuses you, and then tells you it's because you weren't funny. Not when someone points it out to those being abused. As far as the survey goes, I'd need to know more about how it was conducted, but it seems like an advertisement to me. Was it multiple choice? Where these the only options available or was it a 'fill in the blank' etc.. I also think that people that are cheating all share similar justifications, these are not unique to AM, it's just an absurd subset of the 'reasons' list from the cheaters handbook.


----------



## russell28

rustytheboyrobot said:


> "He was helping me figure out what I needed."
> *And he figured out you needed him in a motel room?*
> 
> "It was only really bad for the first year."
> 
> "You're being delusional. You're delusional."
> *Being lied to constantly makes it hard to tell what's real and whats bull.*
> 
> "You are lazy and don't support me in the things I want."
> *How does he support the things you want, buy setting up that motel room for a couple hours?*
> 
> "You're fat, ugly, and unattractive and you_ always were_."
> *You're not exactly a supermodel yourself, have you looked in a mirror lately? I'm sure your OM looks just like a young Brad Pitt.*
> 
> "He was helping our marriage."
> *He was helping his penis by helping you destroy your marriage*
> 
> "You're not a _real man._"
> *If you think real men cheat and lie, then I don't want to be your type of real.*


----------



## The Middleman

ConanHub said:


> I would call it no myth. My mother was hardly loving her kids in the midst of her sexual misconduct. She was loving herself far more.
> 
> I won't speak to your feelings, but actions speak loud to me. I believe anyone who cheats has hit a low point for loving others.
> 
> To me, love is self sacrificing, cheating is always, without fail, self serving.


I agree with this 100%. As someone who's childhood was distroyed by my father's infidelity I can tell you he was only concerned with himself and his personal satisfaction. He really didn't care about the collateral damage he caused, which was massive. 

Based on my own experience, you can't be a good parent and carry on an affair, they are mutually exclusive.


----------



## russell28

The Middleman said:


> I agree with this 100%. As someone who's childhood was distroyed by my father's infidelity I can tell you he was only concerned with himself and his personal satisfaction. He really didn't care about the collateral damage he caused, which was massive.
> 
> Based on my own experience, you can't be a good parent and carry on an affair, they are mutually exclusive.


When my wife wasn't cheating, she was always there for my daughters and close to them. They'd go to breakfast together and do stuff on weekends. When she was cheating, she'd say she was going to breakfast, they'd ask to go, she'd make up a reason why she needed to go alone... After the found out what she was really up to, imagine that they felt pretty rejected as I did. That doesn't seem very loving or caring. I'm sure in her head, it was all good for the family.. happy mom makes a happy family or whatever bad idiot excuse fills in that blank. Thats one of her regrets now that she sees it for what it really was. All that time she spent with OM, could have been spending with the family. Damn straight it's abusive to the children. Not to even mention the harm gas lighting and blame shifting can have on children. Setting them up to fail in future relationships.


----------



## lordmayhem

The Middleman said:


> I agree with this 100%. As someone who's childhood was distroyed by my father's infidelity I can tell you he was only concerned with himself and his personal satisfaction. He really didn't care about the collateral damage he caused, which was massive.
> 
> Based on my own experience, you can't be a good parent and carry on an affair, they are mutually exclusive.


Same here. My serial cheater of a father ruined our childhood. It is/was so traumatic that none of us have ever cheated and find it despicable. He was so damn selfish, and we felt unwanted. It was terrible.


----------



## Truthseeker1

russell28 said:


> When my wife wasn't cheating, she was always there for my daughters and close to them. They'd go to breakfast together and do stuff on weekends. When she was cheating, she'd say she was going to breakfast, they'd ask to go, she'd make up a reason why she needed to go alone... After the found out what she was really up to, imagine that they felt pretty rejected as I did. That doesn't seem very loving or caring. I'm sure in her head, it was all good for the family.. happy mom makes a happy family or whatever bad idiot excuse fills in that blank. Thats one of her regrets now that she sees it for what it really was. All that time she spent with OM, could have been spending with the family. Damn straight it's abusive to the children. Not to even mention the harm gas lighting and blame shifting can have on children. Setting them up to fail in future relationships.


Russel what is your wife's relationship like with your daughters now? It seems like it is going to be hard to ever fully repair.


----------



## MSP

ConanHub said:


> To me, love is self sacrificing, cheating is always, without fail, self serving.


:iagree:

I think this sums it up very well. 

Humans are complex and you can be thoughtful in one area and not in another. Many people can be humanitarians and spend a lot of time helping others yet also have affairs. However, their kindness to others does not absolve their selfishness towards their family. No one cheats for the sake of their family. Cheating is always, always, always selfish. The problem for the cheater is that once you accept the lie that allows you to cheat, you massively increase the chances that your selfishness will spread to other areas of your life.


----------



## russell28

Truthseeker1 said:


> Russel what is your wife's relationship like with your daughters now? It seems like it is going to be hard to ever fully repair.


She's spending time with them again, and being in their lives. I'm sure they won't forget, and I'm sure it stings, but at least they got an 'I'm sorry' and she's no longer making excuses to 'escape' from us.. so it's going good.

I never tried to use them or to get them to hate her, so I guess if I can show forgiveness and compassion, they seem to follow..


----------



## xakulax

10 reasons Why Women Cheat = 10 reasons why i'm not married


----------



## Truthseeker1

russell28 said:


> She's spending time with them again, and being in their lives. I'm sure they won't forget, and I'm sure it stings, but at least they got an 'I'm sorry' and she's no longer making excuses to 'escape' from us.. so it's going good.
> 
> *I never tried to use them or to get them to hate her, so I guess if I can show forgiveness and compassion, they seem to follow..*


You are a good man..the sad part in these situations is the cheating parent loses a great deal of moral credibility with their children...I wonder if wayward parents feel uncomfortable giving parental lectures about things like honesty and loyalty or anything in regards to sexual behavior..


----------



## russell28

Truthseeker1 said:


> You are a good man..the sad part in these situations is the cheating parent loses a great deal of moral credibility with their children...I wonder if wayward parents feel uncomfortable giving parental lectures about things like honesty and loyalty or anything in regards to sexual behavior..


True, if she uses words like honest and truthfully and stuff and you want to snicker.. I'm sure the kids get the same reaction, but might not be as bad.. they might have inherited the compartmentalization gene. I guess it's a do as I say thing, we all learn at some point that our parents are human and they can give us advice they don't follow.. like as they're smoking a cigarette telling you that it's bad to smoke. You know it already.. but that doesn't mean it's still not good advice. It just seems crazy coming from someone with a cigarette hanging out of their mouth.

Like my wifes mom, the one that cheated, married the OM then cheated on him, asked my wife if she "learned her lesson.." Whatever the hell that means.. don't get caught?


----------



## chumplady

_Who are are you favorite TAM posters?
_
I don't read here very often any more, sorry! But sometimes I notice someone has linked to me in my site stats and I take a look.

_Is TAM a gold mine for column material?
_
I spent a lot of time when I was chumped (a BS) on infidelity forums, so yes, there's a lot of material out there and I was familiar with a lot of the topics (I'm a chump). But I get a ton of letters now, so that's where the column material comes from mostly. 

_Cheating and cheaters are one of life's bummers. Is cheating the worst transgression in a marriage?_

The worst? I don't know. It's up there. I consider it abuse. Molesting your children is worse. Physical abuse is terrible. There's a lot of ways to abuse someone. But my feeling is it goes way beyond "bummer." You're making unilateral decisions about someone's health, emotional well-being, and children's home life. You can't cheat on someone without lying to and gaslighting them (emotional abuse). But then you add the physical costs -- STDs, miscarriages from STDs, stress illnesses, PTSD -- I'd say there is a physical component as well.

People have written to me who've had to paternity test their kids, who discovered an STD from a cheater in pregnancy and lost the baby, who've been cheated on at their most vulnerable -- when pregnant or sick. 

Cheaters often say they don't "intend" to hurt their chumps, and that may be true. But they don't live in an intentional way to NOT hurt them. To cheat, you have to disrespect the chump, place your own value and need for validation high above everyone else's welfare. 

I respect cheaters who admit that. And I'm pretty sharp tongued about the ones who don't. 

_Do cheaters reform? What percentage?_

I have no idea. I think cheating is a character problem, and I think it's possible to work hard and with humility to change character, I just don't think the rewards are great enough for most cheaters to go the distance. Cheating is about entitlement thinking. Reconciliation is about humility. It's hard to come out of an affair and give up the entitlement thinking right away. Almost no one I can see starts out of the gate with humility (self pity, yes, humility not so much). 

Thanks for the questions. And btw, I don't think EI owes me an apology. It's a public forum, she's entitled to her opinion and I'm entitled to mine.


----------



## Truthseeker1

chumplady said:


> _Who are are you favorite TAM posters?
> _
> I don't read here very often any more, sorry! But sometimes I notice someone has linked to me in my site stats and I take a look.
> 
> _Is TAM a gold mine for column material?
> _
> I spent a lot of time when I was chumped (a BS) on infidelity forums, so yes, there's a lot of material out there and I was familiar with a lot of the topics (I'm a chump). But I get a ton of letters now, so that's where the column material comes from mostly.
> 
> _Cheating and cheaters are one of life's bummers. Is cheating the worst transgression in a marriage?_
> 
> The worst? I don't know. It's up there. I consider it abuse. Molesting your children is worse. Physical abuse is terrible. There's a lot of ways to abuse someone. But my feeling is it goes way beyond "bummer." You're making unilateral decisions about someone's health, emotional well-being, and children's home life. You can't cheat on someone without lying to and gaslighting them (emotional abuse). But then you add the physical costs -- STDs, miscarriages from STDs, stress illnesses, PTSD -- I'd say there is a physical component as well.
> 
> People have written to me who've had to paternity test their kids, who discovered an STD from a cheater in pregnancy and lost the baby, who've been cheated on at their most vulnerable -- when pregnant or sick.
> 
> Cheaters often say they don't "intend" to hurt their chumps, and that may be true. But they don't live in an intentional way to NOT hurt them. To cheat, you have to disrespect the chump, place your own value and need for validation high above everyone else's welfare.
> 
> I respect cheaters who admit that. And I'm pretty sharp tongued about the ones who don't.
> 
> _Do cheaters reform? What percentage?_
> 
> I have no idea. I think cheating is a character problem, and I think it's possible to work hard and with humility to change character, I just don't think the rewards are great enough for most cheaters to go the distance. Cheating is about entitlement thinking. Reconciliation is about humility. It's hard to come out of an affair and give up the entitlement thinking right away. Almost no one I can see starts out of the gate with humility (self pity, yes, humility not so much).
> 
> Thanks for the questions. And btw, I don't think EI owes me an apology. It's a public forum, she's entitled to her opinion and I'm entitled to mine.


This is why I read your column...:smthumbup: Thanks for posting here...many TAM readers like your work and what you have to offer...


----------



## Truthseeker1

russell28 said:


> True, if she uses words like honest and truthfully and stuff and you want to snicker.. I'm sure the kids get the same reaction, but might not be as bad.. they might have inherited the compartmentalization gene. I guess it's a do as I say thing, we all learn at some point that our parents are human and they can give us advice they don't follow.. like as they're smoking a cigarette telling you that it's bad to smoke. You know it already.. but that doesn't mean it's still not good advice. It just seems crazy coming from someone with a cigarette hanging out of their mouth.
> 
> Like my wifes mom, the one that cheated, married the OM then cheated on him, asked my wife if she "learned her lesson.." Whatever the hell that means.. don't get caught?


Agreed - the advice maybe good but the recipient is thinking what do you know what its like NOT to do this or that...so the message gets lost....I know this from personal experience....


----------



## 1812overture

russell28 said:


> I guess it's a do as I say thing


Russell, I've read your stuff, but haven't really had much to offer, so I've never commented. On this one, I want to point out (and nobody's perfect, we all have faults) that YOU have not gone down the 'do as I say' road with your kids. YOU have taken the 'do as I do' road, including on the forgiveness road. To badly paraphrase, in their lives, perhaps that will make all the difference.

There's a LOT to admire about you, Russell. I can't imagine I'm strong enough to have handled what you've handled, they way you've handled it.


----------



## Truthseeker1

1812overture said:


> Russell, I've read your stuff, but haven't really had much to offer, so I've never commented. On this one, I want to point out (and nobody's perfect, we all have faults) that YOU have not gone down the 'do as I say' road with your kids. YOU have taken the 'do as I do' road, including on the forgiveness road. To badly paraphrase, in their lives, perhaps that will make all the difference.
> 
> There's a LOT to admire about you, Russell. I can't imagine I'm strong enough to have handled what you've handled, they way you've handled it.


:iagree::iagree::iagree: Russell sets an example by *DOING* not simply by preaching.....words are easy it's the walk that is the hard part....he is a really good example for his kids..when he says be honest and loyal he can add because I have been...that makes the message more potent!


----------



## Happyfamily

Oh my God. I have a new hero.

*Chumplady* I don't have many heros. But George Simon is on my short list too. My husband showed me his work, and boy is he good.

But he's all about generic manipulation and you have this infidelity thing nailed down tighter than a drum.

Just wow. Thank you!


----------



## sidney2718

xakulax said:


> Has anyone else noticed all of the wayward have left the building lol


It isn't funny. As long as we divide mainly into two camps, the (female) waywards and the (male) betrayeds, what Chump Lady wrote will be ignored. Someone asked if there was anything worse than infidelity and she gave some examples. And there are more examples out there, some even show up on threads in TAM.

There are many reasons for cheating. Being weak minded or born bad are not up there as top reasons. That doesn't excuse cheating, but if the am of TAM is mainly to save marriages, the reasons do have to be understood.


----------



## xakulax

sidney2718 said:


> It isn't funny. As long as we divide mainly into two camps, the (female) waywards and the (male) betrayeds, what Chump Lady wrote will be ignored. Someone asked if there was anything worse than infidelity and she gave some examples. And there are more examples out there, some even show up on threads in TAM.
> 
> There are many reasons for cheating. Being weak minded or born bad are not up there as top reasons. That doesn't excuse cheating, but if the am of TAM is mainly to save marriages, the reasons do have to be understood.



I was simply making an observation but thank you for your interpretation


----------



## ConanHub

xakulax said:


> Has anyone else noticed all of the wayward have left the building lol


I wish that were not so. EI is one of my favorite folks and I think her insights are valuable. It is ok to disagree strongly and still like who you disagree with.

Just giving a heartfelt to the former w's out there. Disagree or not, I really appreciate all of your input.


----------



## xakulax

ConanHub said:


> I wish that were not so. EI is one of my favorite folks and I think her insights are valuable. It is ok to disagree strongly and still like who you disagree with.
> 
> Just giving a heartfelt to the former w's out there. Disagree or not, I really appreciate all of your input.



I completely agree in a thread where there input would matter most none are here and If my comment offend anyone I sincerely apologize I meant no harm from it


----------



## EI

xakulax said:


> Has anyone else noticed all of the wayward have left the building lol




I will apologize ONLY for making an incorrect assumption about the kind of attorney that Chump Lady's husband is. I remembered having read some of her posts, in another thread, referring to her husband being an attorney. She also made some comments regarding OM's and OW's being subpoenaed for depositions in divorce cases. It was quite a while back and I either drew an incorrect conclusion or my memory has genuinely failed me. Either way, I didn't intentionally mislead, anyone. I truly loathe being wrong, so I would never post anything, as fact, that I even remotely thought might be incorrect? We ALL know that Chump Lady has a very faithful following on TAM. If I had known that my comment was incorrect, I would have also had to know that others would know it, as well, and that they would be ever so gleeful in pointing it out. Still, my thoughts and opinions, regarding the positive value of Chump Lady's blog, despite those of other posters on this thread, remains unchanged. 

As far as the waywards having "left the building," I will say this: I owe absolutely nothing to the posters on this thread. And, I have absolutely no intention of prostrating myself before any of you, simply for your folly. Your opinions of my worth are in no way an actual indicator of my worth. I answer only to God, my husband, my children, myself, and to a far lesser extent, to my extended family, and friends. 

My primary purpose for posting on TAM is to glean what I can that might prove to be beneficial in my own healing, and in assisting my family, and other loved ones, in their healing. My secondary purpose for posting on TAM, would be to offer any help or hope that I might be able to offer to others on their journey towards healing. I know what it feels like to be in a very low place and feel as if there is no hope. For the life of me, I truly cannot see how using extremely derogatory, demeaning, and demoralizing words to describe anyone, yes, even the WS who betrayed you, helps to facilitate the healing of BS's. I truly do not understand it. 

Xakulax, although I often disagreed with your comments, I knew that they were coming from a place of intense personal pain and I held a measure of respect for you. But, now, I find that your "baiting" of WS's, in the above comment, to be the TAM equivalent of schoolyard bullying. I detest bullies. I really do. I thought better of you.

I will not be returning to this thread. It takes my limited time and energy away from my ability to post on other threads where I may be able to make a positive difference. Honestly, my family would prefer that I log off of TAM and never come back.


----------



## russell28

1812overture said:


> Russell, I've read your stuff, but haven't really had much to offer, so I've never commented. On this one, I want to point out (and nobody's perfect, we all have faults) that YOU have not gone down the 'do as I say' road with your kids. YOU have taken the 'do as I do' road, including on the forgiveness road. To badly paraphrase, in their lives, perhaps that will make all the difference.
> 
> There's a LOT to admire about you, Russell. I can't imagine I'm strong enough to have handled what you've handled, they way you've handled it.


Thank you, I hope I'm making good choices.. I guess that's all any of us can do is try our best, and hope for the best.


----------



## xakulax

EI said:


> I will apologize ONLY for making an incorrect assumption about the kind of attorney that Chump Lady's husband is. I remembered having read some of her posts, in another thread, referring to her husband being an attorney. She also made some comments regarding OM's and OW's being subpoenaed for depositions in divorce cases. It was quite a while back and I either drew an incorrect conclusion or my memory has genuinely failed me. Either way, I didn't intentionally mislead, anyone. I truly loathe being wrong, so I would never post anything, as fact, that I even remotely thought might be incorrect? We ALL know that Chump Lady has a very faithful following on TAM. If I had known that my comment was incorrect, I would have also had to know that others would know it, as well, and that they would be ever so gleeful in pointing it out. Still, my thoughts and opinions, regarding the positive value of Chump Lady's blog, despite those of other posters on this thread, remains unchanged.
> 
> As far as the waywards having "left the building," I will say this: I owe absolutely nothing to the posters on this thread. And, I have absolutely no intention of prostrating myself before any of you, simply for your folly. Your opinions of my worth are in no way an actual indicator of my worth. I answer only to God, my husband, my children, myself, and to a far lesser extent, to my extended family, and friends.
> 
> My primary purpose for posting on TAM is to glean what I can that might prove to be beneficial in my own healing, and in assisting my family, and other loved ones, in their healing. My secondary purpose for posting on TAM, would be to offer any help or hope that I might be able to offer to others on their journey towards healing. I know what it feels like to be in a very low place and feel as if there is no hope. For the life of me, I truly cannot see how using extremely derogatory, demeaning, and demoralizing words to describe anyone, yes, even the WS who betrayed you, helps to facilitate the healing of BS's. I truly do not understand it.
> 
> Xakulax, although I often disagreed with your comments, I knew that they were coming from a place of intense personal pain and I held a measure of respect for you. But, now, I find that your "baiting" of WS's, in the above comment, to be the TAM equivalent of schoolyard bullying. I detest bullies. I really do. I thought better of you.
> 
> I will not be returning to this thread. It takes my limited time and energy away from my ability to post on other threads where I may be able to make a positive difference. Honestly, my family would prefer that I log off of TAM and never come back.






The comment was merely an observation not an attack on you or any wayward for that matter if you have interpreted it that way then I completely and sincerely apologize for that was not my intention. I was merely pointing out that in thread discussing possible causes of infidelity was rather vacant of wayward input and that's it and nothing more.



Again please understand that was not my intention.


----------



## jim123

ConanHub said:


> Beyond a shadow of a doubt, your definition of good differs so greatly from my own as to render a coherent conversation between us impossible.
> 
> In my book, good people get tempted but don't, others get tempted and do.
> 
> I do however, believe currently good people could have been formerly horrible and changed for the better. I have seen that often.
> 
> Someone in the midst of cheating is hardly at a point I could refer to as being good for anyone.
> 
> There are many horrible things people can do and cheating is certainly high on that list.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We are closer that you think. When in an A, the WS is not a good person. No one says that more than EI does.

I adopted two at risk children. I can tell you that a person that adopts a special needs child and raises that child is not a good person but a great person. EI is such a person.

It takes a lot of courage and strength to post as a WW. It takes a strong person.to admit a mistake and face the person you hurt everyday.

This is not about good versus evil. This is about whether your M should survive. 

Other things that good people do is they do not hate, they make people better and they forgive.


----------



## jim123

russell28 said:


> It sounded like EI had an issue with cheaters being called bad and idiots.. The chumplady blog is directed at people like Daisy, that can't get away from an abusive cheater, to help them detach. I have no issue calling someone that's cheating on a spouse a bad person or an idiot, if they stop cheating, then I might stop calling them a bad idiot. What fosters pain and hatred is when a cheater abuses you, and then tells you it's because you weren't funny. Not when someone points it out to those being abused. As far as the survey goes, I'd need to know more about how it was conducted, but it seems like an advertisement to me. Was it multiple choice? Where these the only options available or was it a 'fill in the blank' etc.. I also think that people that are cheating all share similar justifications, these are not unique to AM, it's just an absurd subset of the 'reasons' list from the cheaters handbook.


By using that survey, the reader has been baited. That creates the buzz. Reasonable debate goes away and we go back to burning the WW at the stake.

I was cheated on and dumped but I am not a chump. You are only a chump if you allow yourself to be.

She did not love me anymore. That did not make her evil nor bad. I am now with someone who does love me.


----------



## Regret214

xakulax said:


> Has anyone else noticed all of the wayward have left the building lol




It's the "lol" part which makes FORMER waywards not post here. Borrowing from countless threads, if you really want to know what alpha is, it's women who made poor choices, showed true remorse to the ones that matter in their lives (read that as no one on TAM) and continue to come here in hopes to help others through the most difficult issue one can deal with in a relationship.

It's no laughing matter ever and to devolve it so demeans everyone experiencing it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

The waywards never left the building...they sometimes just watch and shake their heads...


----------



## jim123

Mrs. John Adams said:


> The waywards never left the building...they sometimes just watch and shake their heads...


Quote of the day!!


----------



## GusPolinski

Anyone else feel like we should start actively distinguishing between waywards and _former_ waywards?

Seriously, some folks really have earned it. You know who you are.


----------



## staystrong

The waywards who regularly post here are a rare breed.

Most WW's we hear about are remorseless and deceptive who seem to respond to nothing but the most dire of consequences. Even the ones who make it on to TAM then run away probably represent a small % of that group who are willing to even really look at themselves and get past the "Please don't judge me.." stance. 

Just my opinion as a former chump.


----------



## EI

xakulax said:


> The comment was merely an observation not an attack on you or any wayward for that matter if you have interpreted it that way then I completely and sincerely apologize for that was not my intention. I was merely pointing out that in thread discussing possible causes of infidelity was rather vacant of wayward input and that's it and nothing more.
> 
> 
> 
> Again please understand that was not my intention.


Grrrrrr......... I said that I wasn't coming back. :banghead:

Okay X, I'll will humbly accept your apology, and...... I'll bite.  Now, it's your turn to be 100% honest. Why do you think that is? Why do you think that this thread is currently (*save for me, because maybe I truly am an idiot ) vacant of WS's? You know that WS's are selfish by nature  So, why in the Sam Hell should we, or would we, or anyone in their right mind, subject themselves to being treated this way? What's in it for us? Does it help us heal or to become better people? I know some of you might think it does, but I promise, you'd be wrong. 

You know who/what helped me? I'll tell you. Posters like Acabado, cpacan, Complexity (who no longer posts here,) jim123, bfree, Mr. Blunt, etc..... There is a huge list of amazingly caring and unselfish posters on TAM, and I don't want to leave anyone out, so I'm just going to stop there. 

These guys never once sugar-coated the devastation of what their WW's infidelity did to them and to their families. They were brutally honest. They gave me no breaks, accepted no excuses, and had no tolerance for my blame-shifting. But, they did not attempt or desire to further destroy my already battered sense of self. I wanted help. I came here just 2 1/2 weeks after D-Day. I was an emotional wreck. So was B1. We didn't know what the Hell to do for ourselves, much less what to do with each other. When you are THAT broken, there are times when you even need to be reminded to sleep and eat, or to make a doctor or therapy appointment. Just getting out of bed and putting one foot in front of the other can seem nearly impossible. Some of these guys had reconciled and some had divorced, so that did not factor into their motivation to help me. Their genuine goodness, as fellow human beings, is the only thing I can assume was their motivation. They chose to be a part of our solution and not a part of our problem. They gave me real answers to my real questions. They provided me with very concrete ideas as to how I might be able to help B1 heal. And, me, they counted me, too. They understand that I was hurting and needed to heal, as well. Like B1, they chose to meet me where I, actually, was and not where others demanded that I should be. 

You cannot demand remorse from someone. You cannot force someone to make amends. If remorse and amends are not sincere, then they're worthless. Perhaps, for me, what proved to be more helpful than anything else, was that they allowed me to share my story, my pain, my reasons, my feelings, and my fears. My hurt was not simply brushed aside because I was the one who was unfaithful. They also provided B1 with some much needed reality checks about his treatment of me prior to my infidelity. Again, never justifying my actions, simply attempting to help us learn from our past, so that we could both heal and move forward. B1 and I were treated as two hurting people who were desperately trying to "Cope with Infidelity." They provided us with a safe haven where B1 and I could share "our" story. They truly, truly, were instrumental in providing us with the tools, the resources, and the support, that we needed, to not only reconcile our marriage, but to reconcile ourselves. We owe these people such an incredible debt of gratitude. And, I sincerely hope that I have adequately expressed my heartfelt thanks to them along the way.

One last thing. If your comment was _truly_ not meant as an attack or me, or any other WS, then what was the purpose of the "lol" at the end? If you're honest with yourself, you know that, at the very least, it was intended to be a demoralizing "little dig." THAT, my TAM friend, is the reason that the waywards leave the building. TAM is often hostile territory for FWS's. It takes a great deal of courage for us to even post here. Again, why would anyone subject themselves to something that serves no other purpose but to hurt them?

I do sincerely appreciate your apology. So, if you'd like, you can accept my friend request, because I deleted you earlier today! 


*Edited to add: I am so long winded with my posts, that other FWS's did appear in "the building" while I was posting.


----------



## MSP

EI said:


> My hurt was not simply brushed aside because I was the one who was unfaithful.


True repentance is difficult and painful. As you grow closer to the BS you feel their hurt and your betrayal more, yet you have to press on through it. It's the emotional equivalent of warming up severe frostbite. Every day. For years.


----------



## EI

MSP said:


> True repentance is difficult and painful. As you grow closer to the BS you feel their hurt and your betrayal more, yet you have to press on through it. It's the emotional equivalent of warming up severe frostbite. Every day. For years.


Amen......


----------



## russell28

EI said:


> Grrrrrr......... I said that I wasn't coming back. :banghead:
> 
> Okay X, I'll will humbly accept your apology, and...... I'll bite.  Now, it's your turn to be 100% honest. Why do you think that is? Why do you think that this thread is currently (*save for me, because maybe I truly am an idiot ) vacant of WS's? You know that WS's are selfish by nature  So, why in the Sam Hell should we, or would we, or anyone in their right mind, subject themselves to being treated this way? What's in it for us? Does it help us heal or to become better people? I know some of you might think it does, but I promise, you'd be wrong.
> 
> *You know who/what helped me? I'll tell you. Posters like Acabado, cpacan, Complexity (who no longer posts here,) jim123, bfree, Mr. Blunt, etc..... There is a huge list of amazingly caring and unselfish posters on TAM*, and I don't want to leave anyone out, so I'm just going to stop there.
> 
> These guys never once sugar-coated the devastation of what their WW's infidelity did to them and to their families. *They were brutally honest. They gave me no breaks, accepted no excuses, and had no tolerance for my blame-shifting. But, they did not attempt or desire to further destroy my already battered sense of self. I wanted help.* I came here just 2 1/2 weeks after D-Day. I was an emotional wreck. So was B1. We didn't know what the Hell to do for ourselves, much less what to do with each other. When you are THAT broken, there are times when you even need to be reminded to sleep and eat, or to make a doctor or therapy appointment. Just getting out of bed and putting one foot in front of the other can seem nearly impossible. Some of these guys had reconciled and some had divorced, so that did not factor into their motivation to help me. Their genuine goodness, as fellow human beings, is the only thing I can assume was their motivation. They chose to be a part of our solution and not a part of our problem. They gave me real answers to my real questions. They provided me with very concrete ideas as to how I might be able to help B1 heal. And, me, they counted me, too. They understand that I was hurting and needed to heal, as well. Like B1, they chose to meet me where I, actually, was and not where others demanded that I should be.
> 
> You cannot demand remorse from someone. You cannot force someone to make amends. If remorse and amends are not sincere, then they're worthless. Perhaps, for me, what proved to be more helpful than anything else, was that they allowed me to share my story, my pain, my reasons, my feelings, and my fears. My hurt was not simply brushed aside because I was the one who was unfaithful. They also provided B1 with some much needed reality checks about his treatment of me prior to my infidelity. Again, never justifying my actions, simply attempting to help us learn from our past, so that we could both heal and move forward. B1 and I were treated as two hurting people who were desperately trying to "Cope with Infidelity." They provided us with a safe haven where B1 and I could share "our" story. They truly, truly, were instrumental in providing us with the tools, the resources, and the support, that we needed, to not only reconcile our marriage, but to reconcile ourselves. We owe these people such an incredible debt of gratitude. And, I sincerely hope that I have adequately expressed my heartfelt thanks to them along the way.
> 
> One last thing. If your comment was _truly_ not meant as an attack or me, or any other WS, then what was the purpose of the "lol" at the end? If you're honest with yourself, you know that, at the very least, it was intended to be a demoralizing "little dig." THAT, my TAM friend, is the reason that the waywards leave the building. TAM is often hostile territory for FWS's. It takes a great deal of courage for us to even post here. *Again, why would anyone subject themselves to something that serves no other purpose but to hurt them*?
> 
> I do sincerely appreciate your apology. So, if you'd like, you can accept my friend request, because I deleted you earlier today!
> 
> 
> *Edited to add: I am so long winded with my posts, that other FWS's did appear in "the building" while I was posting.



You subjected yourself to the hurt on here, to find the help you needed. Perhaps your family might be right in thinking you're past _needing _TAM at this point. People might need help from you, and we appreciate you a ton.. but if this forum isn't helping you any longer, and it's only hurting you. You might need to take a break.


----------



## Fenix

Truthseeker1 said:


> Agreed - the advice maybe good but the recipient is thinking what do you know what its like NOT to do this or that...so the message gets lost....I know this from personal experience....


It's called hypocrisy and kids, especially teenagers, have no patience for it. I can't blame them. My x has lost all credibility with my kids.

eta:
And oh, FFS, stop with the WS bellyaching. You know what? I do not come to TAM to supposedly understand why my X cheated. I know why...and I learned why from much more reputable sources than the WS here. Maybe I am too near my D Day but to hear the evangelizing on why the input of a WS is valuable is sickening. I am happy if a reconciliation is working *over the long term*, and I support it. However, I do not support all of the self censoring that goes on so that the ego of a popular poster remains intact.

I also don't see two camps of WW and BH. I do see two camps of WS and BS...and I think that is normal and fine.

As far as TAM being for marriage surviving. I don't see it. Some of the groups are, but some are not. Coping with Infidelity has the byline of relationship recovery after the destruction of infidelity. * Imo, the most important relationship to recover is the one with myself *.


----------



## SteveK

Truthseeker1 said:


> Why Women Cheat?
> 
> by Chump Lady on May 14, 2014
> 
> Anyone see this on HuffPo?
> 
> Why do women cheat? A new survey from Victoria Milan — a dating site for married people seeking affairs — suggests it’s because they find their partner really, really annoying. (And apparently, the only way to cope with that is to hook up with another dude.)
> 
> The website polled 6,000 women on the site and a whopping 73 percent of the ladies said the chief reason they cheated was because they were annoyed by their partner’s character flaws and behavior. The number one complaint the women brought up? A lackluster sense of humor, at 19 percent.
> 
> Unsurprisingly, more than half of the women admitted they were looking for a lover who did not possess the trait they found so obnoxious in their partner.
> 
> Below, the 10 most irritating behaviors that the women cited as excuses for cheating:
> 
> 1. He lacks a sense of humor (19%)
> 2. He’s not understanding enough (16%)
> 3. He’s not good in bed (14%)
> 4. He lacks good manners (11%)
> 5. He’s lazy and doesn’t have any life plans (10%)
> 6. He doesn’t care about his appearance and has poor hygiene (9%)
> 7. He’s not successful (7%)
> 8. He doesn’t pay enough attention to details and social obligations (5%)
> 9. He’s unable to clean up after himself and he’s a mama’s boy (5%)
> 10. He’s stingy (4%)
> 
> (Read the rest here)


Chump lady, I can't agree with this at all...these are all the reasons my Cheating Spouse says she stayed with me and kept the affair a secret...


----------



## pidge70

The reason *this* FWS doesn't post on threads like this is because I don't feel like dealing with the projection from a lot of BS. The only people whose opinions of me matter are Joe's and our children.

ETA:Not one of those reasons listed were applicable to my cheating.


----------



## owl6118

Mrs. John Adams said:


> The waywards never left the building...they sometimes just watch and shake their heads...


Can there be a multi-like button? Like that exercise in corprate retreats where you get five sticky dots to put on your favorite ideas on the flip chart, but you can use all 5 on one idea if you really really like it?


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

Thanks..lol

Sometimes there just aren't words..you know?

I have tons of them whirling....and then I say...nope...just not worth my time...this comes to mind:banghead:


----------



## ConanHub

jim123 said:


> We are closer that you think. When in an A, the WS is not a good person. No one says that more than EI does.
> 
> I adopted two at risk children. I can tell you that a person that adopts a special needs child and raises that child is not a good person but a great person. EI is such a person.
> 
> It takes a lot of courage and strength to post as a WW. It takes a strong person.to admit a mistake and face the person you hurt everyday.
> 
> This is not about good versus evil. This is about whether your M should survive.
> 
> Other things that good people do is they do not hate, they make people better and they forgive.


Thanks for the reply Jim. I have been inspired more than once by EI, she , and others, possess gifts and strengths that I do not possess and I learn from. I would mention that my gifts and strengths lay in a different category. My wife doesn't always refer to me as nice, but always good. 

I have approached the ugly things in life by unflinchingly calling them what they are and, yes, hating them.
I have taken a very direct approach to dealing with evil, wrong, bad things. My intention has always been to expose, root out, and kill whatever "cancer" is messing with someone's life.

Once the "cancer" is gone, whatever it may have been, I focus on healing and strengthening, witch includes forgiveness and repentance.

I have been very successful with this process, but I certainly don't have close to all the answers or insights. 

BTW. I actually care far more for the health of the WS and the BS than weather or not their marriage is repaired. Maybe that sometimes puts me at odds with the intended goal of a thread but I thought this one was about the mindset of serial, unremorseful cheaters. EI is not in that category. I don't believe this thread applies to her situation.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Fenix said:


> It's called hypocrisy and kids, especially teenagers, have no patience for it. I can't blame them. My x has lost all credibility with my kids.
> 
> eta:
> And oh, FFS, stop with the WS bellyaching. You know what? I do not come to TAM to supposedly understand why my X cheated. I know why...and I learned why from much more reputable sources than the WS here. Maybe I am too near my D Day but to hear the evangelizing on why the input of a WS is valuable is sickening. I am happy if a reconciliation is working *over the long term*, and I support it. However, I do not support all of the self censoring that goes on so that the ego of a popular poster remains intact.
> 
> I also don't see two camps of WW and BH. I do see two camps of WS and BS...and I think that is normal and fine.
> 
> As far as TAM being for marriage surviving. I don't see it. Some of the groups are, but some are not. Coping with Infidelity has the byline of relationship recovery after the destruction of infidelity. * Imo, the most important relationship to recover is the one with myself *.


The thing is life is to realize you can not control other people or events but only your reaction to them...that is a lesson we all learn but it is so tough to apply,....


----------



## chumplady

Sidney, you wrote: 
_if the am of TAM is mainly to save marriages, the reasons do have to be understood._

I don't disagree with you, but we probably differ as to what those reasons are. I see one reason for cheating -- entitlement. And if a WS can get to a place of humility and chuck the entitlement -- good for them. IMO that's the only way forward to reconciliation.

Why pointing out cheating is about narcissism and entitlement offends WS baffles me. If you can't admit this about your own behavior, I question your sincerity about reconciliation, frankly. 

The HuffPo article that I skewered is interviewing remorseless cheaters about their "reasons" which are pretty laughable. 

There was no box to tick that said "I did it because I wanted to and put what I wanted above the welfare of others I purport to care about."


----------



## Happyfamily

The Huff Post survey: did you cheat because
a) I did it for my husband.
b) I did it for humanity.

Choose either one or both.


----------



## chumplady

HappilyFamily

c) To improve my marriage.


----------



## russell28

chumplady said:


> HappilyFamily
> 
> c) To improve my marriage.


Cheating is healthy for the relationship. It makes a cheater happy, and when a cheater is happy, everyone benefits. It's win - win.

This one is an old classic. It's not a selfish act, it's a selfless one.. sacrificing themselves for the good of the planet.


----------



## Truthseeker1

russell28 said:


> Cheating is healthy for the relationship. It makes a cheater happy, and when a cheater is happy, everyone benefits. It's win - win.
> 
> *This one is an old classic. It's not a selfish act, it's a selfless one.. sacrificing themselves for the good of the planet*.


Do you think that is how cheaters cope with behaving in such a manner? That is is not dishonest and disloyal but there are "underlying reasons" for their betrayal? It is how they cheat and still look in the mirror without disliking what they see.


----------



## Twistedheart

Why do WW who post on TAM always seem to be on the defense? Do you do the same towards the BS?


----------



## 3putt

Twistedheart said:


> Why do WW who post on TAM always seem to be on the defense? Do you do the same towards the BS?


Because it's not fair to paint the remorseful FWWs on this board with the same broad stroke that remorseless WWs are painted with.


----------



## russell28

Truthseeker1 said:


> Do you think that is how cheaters cope with behaving in such a manner? That is is not dishonest and disloyal but there are "underlying reasons" for their betrayal? It is how they cheat and still look in the mirror without disliking what they see.


That is exactly how the thought process works. Nobody wants to see themselves as a bad person, so instead they are deserving or justified. They spin every negative into a positive. The lie to themselves and build up a list of 'reasons' so that if/when they get caught, they can fire them off to you rapid fire style... It's the backup plan, when caught, they can turn it all around and it's your fault even though you had no idea.

I not only got the list of reasons, I got a list of everyone she knows that cheated, is cheating or will cheat.. more proof that it's okay. Everyone is doing it. That also helps.. "x is cheating, and they aren't a bad person, their spouse is to blame because the spouse doesn't sing them love songs and bring them flowers anymore, that's what they tell me".


----------



## russell28

3putt said:


> Because it's not fair to paint the remorseful FWWs on this board with the same broad stroke that remorseless WWs are painted with.


I think the confusion is often when people say "cheaters", they mean people that ARE cheating and justifying it. It's not always meant to insult people that are working hard in R and being faithful and honest. At least that's how I usually read it.

I also see where some folks can't wait to jump all over someone that cheated in the past, even if they're working hard to change and be a better person. I may be guilty of it, and if so I"m sorry.. It's such an emotional topic and the forum is full of people that are hurting in one way or another.


----------



## ConanHub

3putt said:


> Because it's not fair to paint the remorseful FWWs on this board with the same broad stroke that remorseless WWs are painted with.


I really did not think this thread was about fws that are remorseful. This thread does not apply to them at all.


----------



## NeverMore

3putt said:


> Because it's not fair to paint the remorseful FWWs on this board with the same broad stroke that remorseless WWs are painted with.


Yes, but the truly remorseful ones are few and far between. Where as the unremorseful, blame shifting, gas lighters are the masses of WWs.


----------



## russell28

ConanHub said:


> I really did not think this thread was about fws that are remorseful. This thread does not apply to them at all.


It's about the Ashely ******* crowd, that thinks an affair is a good idea, especially if your spouse is no longer entertaining you with fresh five star comedy routines.


----------



## NeverMore

Truthseeker1 said:


> You are a good man..the sad part in these situations is *the cheating parent loses a great deal of moral credibility with their children..*.I wonder if wayward parents feel uncomfortable giving parental lectures about things like honesty and loyalty or anything in regards to sexual behavior..


Yes they do! My eldest knows about his father's cheating. X lives in denial that he knows. When X is around my son, he will lecture him about morality and don't lie, etc... when he needs correcting. Problem is, since my son sees his father for the liar he is, my son no longer listens to his father's lessons about be a good person, even though they are true. This is what cheating does to the child, screws up their up their belief in their parent and forever damages the relationship.


----------



## chumplady

> Originally Posted by 3putt View Post
> Because it's not fair to paint the remorseful FWWs on this board with the same broad stroke that remorseless WWs are painted with.


The article posted was skewering people on a *married dating site* (aka -- remorseless cheaters) who gave "reasons" for their cheating. 

I think the brush stroke was pretty pointed and specific and did not include those in reconciliation. 

But perhaps that's the point -- and I'm asking in earnest -- that every discussion of cheaters should include the caveat, "except for those who are remorseful."

Do remorseful cheaters give reasons such as these? Is that the confusion? Do some remorseful cheaters feel there is credence to the reasons sited in the HuffPo Victoria Milan survey?


----------



## owl6118

chumplady said:


> Do remorseful cheaters give reasons such as these? Is that the confusion? Do some remorseful cheaters feel there is credence to the reasons sited in the HuffPo Victoria Milan survey?


I did not come to TAM because of infidelity. I came because I feared that four years in which I suffered major depression had inflicted great harm on my wife, and I wanted to know how to start to heal her. The most compassionate and helpful and inspirational advice I have received came from former wayward spouses.

What reasons do they now give?

That they were deeply broken people. That they had huge psychological flaws and damage and poor mechanisms for coping with them. 

What do they say about it now? That they live every day with the knowledge that they were not the people they thought they were, that they are people who are capable of inflicting horrific damage on the ones they loved, and that they live with that self-knowledge every day of their lives.

I know how bad I feel about the way I neglected my wife and failed to be there for her during my major depression. I cannot imagine how bad these remorseful waywards feel. I wouldn't trade places with them for all the tea in China.

Some are my friends now, and I worry every day about how deeply they are scarred by what they did and how prone they can be to depression. It is a very, very heavy weight they carry.


----------



## sidney2718

staystrong said:


> The waywards who regularly post here are a rare breed.
> 
> Most WW's we hear about are remorseless and deceptive who seem to respond to nothing but the most dire of consequences. Even the ones who make it on to TAM then run away probably represent a small % of that group who are willing to even really look at themselves and get past the "Please don't judge me.." stance.
> 
> Just my opinion as a former chump.


But why do you assume that the waywards are female? In real life there are probably more wayward men than wayward women.


----------



## sidney2718

russell28 said:


> You subjected yourself to the hurt on here, to find the help you needed. Perhaps your family might be right in thinking you're past _needing _TAM at this point. People might need help from you, and we appreciate you a ton.. but if this forum isn't helping you any longer, and it's only hurting you. You might need to take a break.


Perhaps the men who are so hurt and so broken by their wives' infidelity need to take a break?

EI and B1 are among the really good people here. They've traveled the road, walked the walk, and made it to the end. Many folks here have not yet made it to the end. One thing that might help them would be to read what EI has written, both on B1's thread and on others.

That's my opinion. Take it for what it is worth to you.


----------



## sidney2718

chumplady said:


> Sidney, you wrote:
> _if the am of TAM is mainly to save marriages, the reasons do have to be understood._
> 
> I don't disagree with you, but we probably differ as to what those reasons are. I see one reason for cheating -- entitlement. And if a WS can get to a place of humility and chuck the entitlement -- good for them. IMO that's the only way forward to reconciliation.
> 
> Why pointing out cheating is about narcissism and entitlement offends WS baffles me. If you can't admit this about your own behavior, I question your sincerity about reconciliation, frankly.
> 
> The HuffPo article that I skewered is interviewing remorseless cheaters about their "reasons" which are pretty laughable.
> 
> There was no box to tick that said "I did it because I wanted to and put what I wanted above the welfare of others I purport to care about."


I totally agree about the Huff post article. Like so many others of its genre, it is awful, misleading, and probably harmful.

I think that there are many many reasons why spouses cheat. It can be entitlement, it can also be narcissism, it can also be because the wandering spouse just wants hugs.

My view is that in order to save a marriage one needs reconciliation. And for that, both spouses need to be on board. And one of the things that needs to be dealt with are the reasons why the affair took place. Sure, sometimes, perhaps even often, one never knows exactly why it took place. But often the reason is something toxic in the marriage and that needs to be fixed.

It is too easy to say that the affair is all on the WS and that's that. That won't lead to reconciliation.

Of course if we just want to post-mortem marriages, then no, nothing I've said here applies.


----------



## Happyfamily

We need to separate "reasons for the marriage breaking down" from the infidelity issue.

There can be lots of reasons for the marriage breaking down, and if those aren't fixed then the long run is either divorce, perpetual misery, more infidelity, or maybe an episode on Investigative Discovery where the husband is cut up into little pieces and fed to pigs.

Infidelity is the wrong "solution" to a marriage breaking down and now you have all the lying, gaslighting, and other forms of treachery.

But *Chumplady* is still on point: the wayward spouse feels entitled to an affair, rationalized by whatever the problems in the marriage are.


----------



## chumplady

> It is too easy to say *that the affair* is all on the WS and that's that.


Well, the WS is the only person IN the affair, so yeah, I think you can say the affair is all on them.

Unless the BS and the WS were boffing the same AP?

Both people have issues in marriage. But no one compels another person to cheat. We don't have superpowers that make people do things. We each control ourselves. If BS had those superpowers, we would not choose to be cheated on. 

The decision to cheat is solely on the WS.


----------



## GusPolinski

sidney2718 said:


> But why do you assume that the waywards are female? In real life there are probably more wayward men than wayward women.


In times past, perhaps, but, as Mr. Dylan said, the times are a changin...


----------



## Truthseeker1

chumplady said:


> Well, the WS is the only person IN the affair, so yeah, I think you can say the affair is all on them.
> 
> Unless the BS and the WS were boffing the same AP?
> 
> Both people have issues in marriage. But no one compels another person to cheat. We don't have superpowers that make people do things. We each control ourselves. If BS had those superpowers, we would not choose to be cheated on.
> 
> The decision to cheat is solely on the WS.


:iagree::iagree::iagree: The affair belongs to the cheating spouse 110%.


----------



## Truthseeker1

russell28 said:


> That is exactly how the thought process works. Nobody wants to see themselves as a bad person, so instead they are deserving or justified. They spin every negative into a positive. The lie to themselves and build up a list of 'reasons' so that if/when they get caught, they can fire them off to you rapid fire style... It's the backup plan, when caught, they can turn it all around and it's your fault even though you had no idea.
> 
> I not only got the list of reasons, I got a list of everyone she knows that cheated, is cheating or will cheat.. more proof that it's okay. Everyone is doing it. That also helps.. "x is cheating, and they aren't a bad person, their spouse is to blame because the spouse doesn't sing them love songs and bring them flowers anymore, that's what they tell me".


True. Yoy would have to lie to yourself if you have a shred of decency in you to repeatedly betrat your spouse.


----------



## poida

Just ready MMSLP and I think the answer is most clearly explained in there. Unfortunately it's my marriage in a nut shell.


----------



## Truthseeker1

NeverMore said:


> Yes they do! My eldest knows about his father's cheating. X lives in denial that he knows. When X is around my son, he will lecture him about morality and don't lie, etc... when he needs correcting. Problem is, since my son sees his father for the liar he is, my son no longer listens to his father's lessons about be a good person, even though they are true. This is what cheating does to the child, screws up their up their belief in their parent and forever damages the relationship.


I'm really sorry fo your son in this case...it is unfair that burden was placed on him by your ex-husband.


----------



## jim123

chumplady said:


> The article posted was skewering people on a *married dating site* (aka -- remorseless cheaters) who gave "reasons" for their cheating.
> 
> I think the brush stroke was pretty pointed and specific and did not include those in reconciliation.
> 
> But perhaps that's the point -- and I'm asking in earnest -- that every discussion of cheaters should include the caveat, "except for those who are remorseful."
> 
> Do remorseful cheaters give reasons such as these? Is that the confusion? Do some remorseful cheaters feel there is credence to the reasons sited in the HuffPo Victoria Milan survey?[/QUOTE
> 
> Release the names of the 6000 cheaters and watch the answers change.


----------



## staystrong

owl6118 said:


> I did not come to TAM because of infidelity. I came because I feared that four years in which I suffered major depression had inflicted great harm on my wife, and I wanted to know how to start to heal her. The most compassionate and helpful and inspirational advice I have received came from former wayward spouses.
> 
> What reasons do they now give?
> 
> That they were deeply broken people. That they had huge psychological flaws and damage and poor mechanisms for coping with them.
> 
> What do they say about it now? That they live every day with the knowledge that they were not the people they thought they were, that they are people who are capable of inflicting horrific damage on the ones they loved, and that they live with that self-knowledge every day of their lives.
> 
> I know how bad I feel about the way I neglected my wife and failed to be there for her during my major depression. I cannot imagine how bad these remorseful waywards feel. I wouldn't trade places with them for all the tea in China.
> 
> Some are my friends now, and I worry every day about how deeply they are scarred by what they did and how prone they can be to depression. It is a very, very heavy weight they carry.



Yeah, but why go through the pain of humility, awareness and remorse when you can just bury it in your past and start over with someone new? And feel good about yourself?


----------



## russell28

sidney2718 said:


> Perhaps the men who are so hurt and so broken by their wives' infidelity need to take a break?
> 
> EI and B1 are among the really good people here. They've traveled the road, walked the walk, and made it to the end. Many folks here have not yet made it to the end. One thing that might help them would be to read what EI has written, both on B1's thread and on others.
> 
> That's my opinion. Take it for what it is worth to you.


If it's making her R suffer, or hurting her, then perhaps her family is right when they tell her she needs a break.. That was all I was saying. I said 'take a break', for her.. It's very kind of her to help people, she's helped me.. I just want to make sure she's taking care of herself. I never once said she's not good people. I'd guess B1 is one of those folks telling her she might need a break too.. I'm actually concerned for them and her when I read her sounding so upset. I wonder if she's beating herself up because this forum can be relentless and full of negative energy.

I'm looking for ways to take a break from hurting and being broken as you suggest.. I'm open to suggestions.


----------



## russell28

chumplady said:


> Well, the WS is the only person IN the affair, so yeah, I think you can say the affair is all on them.
> 
> Unless the BS and the WS were boffing the same AP?
> 
> Both people have issues in marriage. But no one compels another person to cheat. We don't have superpowers that make people do things. We each control ourselves. If BS had those superpowers, we would not choose to be cheated on.
> 
> The decision to cheat is solely on the WS.


One party is informed, the other party is living a lie created by the informed party. How can anyone put blame on the person being deceived for the deception? This logic I can never figure out.

How insulting it is whenever anyone implies that a BS is in any way responsible for the decisions and choices of the WS, even though the WS intentionally keeps the truth from the BS. That's total BS.

If my WS asked me if it was okay to go to a motel with her 'friend' from work, I would have said 'NO'. So how exactly is it my fault that she snuck off and did it anyway? She knew I'd say no, that's why she didn't ask.

Was I a perfect husband? Hell no, but guess who wasn't a perfect wife!! I never cheated, but I have a list of 'reasons' if you want to use the cheaters handbook. I could have broken out 'needs not being met' to top my list, or 'doesn't show me enough attention'.. 

They downplay the 'talk', so that when they get caught they can say "I tried to tell you I wasn't happy"... As if you knew that one day when they mentioned they weren't happy, that's the same as telling you they met someone else and they are thinking about going off to a motel. Yea, same exact thing.


----------



## Truthseeker1

russell28 said:


> One party is informed, the other party is living a lie created by the informed party. How can anyone put blame on the person being deceived for the deception? This logic I can never figure out.
> 
> How insulting it is whenever anyone implies that a BS is in any way responsible for the decisions and choices of the WS, even though the WS intentionally keeps the truth from the BS. That's total BS.
> 
> If my WS asked me if it was okay to go to a motel with her 'friend' from work, I would have said 'NO'. So how exactly is it my fault that she snuck off and did it anyway? She knew I'd say no, that's why she didn't ask.
> 
> *Was I a perfect husband? Hell no, but guess who wasn't a perfect wife!! I never cheated, but I have a list of 'reasons' if you want to use the cheaters handbook. I could have broken out 'needs not being met' to top my list, or 'doesn't show me enough attention'.. *
> 
> They downplay the 'talk', so that when they get caught they can say "I tried to tell you I wasn't happy"... As if you knew that one day when they mentioned they weren't happy, that's the same as telling you they met someone else and they are thinking about going off to a motel. Yea, same exact thing.


:iagree::iagree: BINGO!!! The question the WS needs to ask themselves is my spouse was in the same crappy marriage why didn't he or she cheat? Great question with an uncomfortable answer. Self-awareness can be a painful thing....


----------



## NeverMore

Truthseeker1 said:


> :iagree::iagree: BINGO!!! The question the WS needs to ask themselves is my spouse was in the same crappy marriage why didn't he or she cheat? Great question with an uncomfortable answer. Self-awareness can be a painful thing....


I did just this to my WH on several occasions. Asked him why I didn't cheat even though we were in the same crappy marriage? He NEVER could give me an answer. Just tried to end the conversation.


----------



## Truthseeker1

NeverMore said:


> I did just this to my WH on several occasions. Asked him why I didn't cheat even though we were in the same crappy marriage? He NEVER could give me an answer. Just tried to end the conversation.


Did he actually think the marriage was paradise for you? :wtf:


----------



## Squeakr

Truthseeker1 said:


> Did he actually think the marriage was paradise for you? :wtf:


I remember asking my WW (and have heard of others getting the same response) when asked why they thought if we were in such a crappy marriage why I didn't cheat, and was told...wait for it....

No one in their right mind would have or want you and that is why I cheated!!

Wow what a self esteem booster.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Squeakr said:


> I remember asking my WW (and have heard of others getting the same response) when asked why they thought if we were in such a crappy marriage why I didn't cheat, and was told...wait for it....
> 
> *No one in their right mind would have or want you and that is why I cheated!!*
> 
> Wow what a self esteem booster.


Are you still married to her?


----------



## NeverMore

Truthseeker1 said:


> Did he actually think the marriage was paradise for you? :wtf:


He never truly gave a crap as to how the marriage was for me. He felt that I should do everything I could to make HIM happy. That was it, that my job in life, to him. No reciprocity. No respect.

Oh when he was in full cheater mode having long relationships, yes he did think the marriage was paradise for me. I stayed home and raised his 4 children by myself, literally, no help, while he went to work, then spent time with his GF after work all night and the entire weekend. What a prince, huh?


----------



## Truthseeker1

NeverMore said:


> He never truly gave a crap as to how the marriage was for me. He felt that I should do everything I could to make HIM happy. That was it, that my job in life, to him. No reciprocity. No respect.


 Sad but nor surprising....


----------



## NeverMore

Squeakr said:


> I remember asking my WW (and have heard of others getting the same response) when asked why they thought if we were in such a crappy marriage why I didn't cheat, and was told...wait for it....
> 
> No one in their right mind would have or want you and that is why I cheated!!
> 
> Wow what a self esteem booster.


Evil mother ****er !!! So sorry , I got that excuse too.


----------



## 3putt

Squeakr said:


> I remember asking my WW (and have heard of others getting the same response) when asked why they thought if we were in such a crappy marriage why I didn't cheat, and was told...wait for it....
> 
> *No one in their right mind would have or want you and that is why I cheated!!*
> 
> Wow what a self esteem booster.


I wonder if she ever stopped to think about the true irony of that statement. Isn't she the one that said 'I do' to you so many years ago?

I've heard some crazy things come out of their mouths, and that ranks right up there with the best of them.

LOL


----------



## Truthseeker1

3putt said:


> I wonder if she ever stopped to think about the true irony of that statement. Isn't she the one that said 'I do' to you so many years ago?
> 
> I've heard some crazy things come out of their mouths, and that ranks right up there with the best of them.
> 
> LOL


:iagree::iagree: Yeah...she is mocking a choice that SHE made...:scratchhead:


----------



## Squeakr

Truthseeker1 said:


> Are you still married to her?


Yes but working against that being the case. My state is so messed up in its rules and laws that divorces take forever.


----------



## Squeakr

3putt said:


> I wonder if she ever stopped to think about the true irony of that statement. Isn't she the one that said 'I do' to you so many years ago?
> 
> I've heard some crazy things come out of their mouths, and that ranks right up there with the best of them.
> 
> LOL


Nope never stopped to think about it and didn't seem to care. Also got the "I never loved you and only married you because I felt sorry for you when you asked me and didn't want to embarrass you in public" (saw this one written and it was told to my face). She got brutal when I exposed and came at me with both barrels. Heck when she told her dad we were engaged, he said "what were you drunk when that happened?" (I only recently found this great one out).

The thing is that she can't win the kids back and they look at her with trust, concern, and dismay every time she says anything (they have no trust in her anymore).

Heck on my b'day I didn't even get a "happy b'day" just got criticisms of my parenting skills. She is a real pice of work, and this from someone we trust to teach or kids and mold their minds and hearts. Great role model here!


----------



## 3putt

Squeakr said:


> Nope never stopped to think about it and didn't seem to care. Also got the "I never loved you and only married you because I felt sorry for you when you asked me and didn't want to embarrass you in public" (saw this one written and it was told to my face). She got brutal when I exposed and came at me with both barrels. *Heck when she told her dad we were engaged, he said "what were you drunk when that happened?" (I only recently found this great one out).*
> 
> Did she tell you he said this? If so, I would put as much weight behind that as any other thing she has said, which is not much.
> 
> The thing is that she can't win the kids back and they look at her with *trust*, concern, and dismay every time she says anything (they have no trust in her anymore).
> 
> I'm sure you meant distrust, but it's sad that your kids have to deal with this. The collateral damage in these things is always far reaching and long lasting.
> 
> Heck on my b'day I didn't even get a "happy b'day" just got criticisms of my parenting skills. She is a real pice of work, and this from someone we trust to teach or kids and mold their minds and hearts. Great role model here!


Terrible stuff.


----------



## Squeakr

3putt said:


> Terrible stuff.


Yes the issues got dropped accidentally when typing as it should have read "trust issues".

Actually I saw it written in an online diary from years ago that her dad told her that and she was dismayed by his reaction. Just recently discovered it when looking for another file, so I bet it is 100% true (I don't think she knows that I know this one band it could have been said in sarcasm). It was definitely another eye opener as I know her mother has always hated me but thought I was good with her dad, but maybe not, I was probably just someone he used to get all of his electronic and computer issues fixed for free and he despised me just as much as the mother did.


----------



## 3putt

Squeakr said:


> Yes the issues got dropped accidentally when typing as it should have read "trust issues".
> 
> Actually I saw it written in an online diary from years ago that her dad told her that and she was dismayed by his reaction. Just recently discovered it when looking for another file, so I bet it is 100% true (I don't think she knows that I know this one band it could have been said in sarcasm). It was definitely another eye opener as I know her mother has always hated me but thought I was good with her dad, but maybe not, I was probably just someone he used to get all of his electronic and computer issues fixed for free and he despised me just as much as the mother did.


Considering what she's done and abandoned, I have to wonder what he thinks now about his words and thoughts. 

Oh, never mind. With people like this you just can't do anything right once their minds are made up you can't.

Wow.


----------



## Squeakr

3putt said:


> Considering what she's done and abandoned, I have to wonder what he thinks now about his words and thoughts.
> 
> Oh, never mind. With people like this you just can't do anything right once their minds are made up you can't.
> 
> Wow.


He actually succumbed to MS about 1.5 to 2 years prior to her actually going PA (well from what I can prove but suspect she was cheating prior to that) so he never got to find out the dark side of his precious angel (and it was her step dad, but she considered him to be dad, as he came into the picture after her bio dad died from lupus when she was like 4 or 5). Lots of other family baggage I never really knew until way later as well. 

Yes my life is a mess. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

Squeakr said:


> Nope never stopped to think about it and didn't seem to care. Also got the "I never loved you and only married you because I felt sorry for you when you asked me and didn't want to embarrass you in public" (saw this one written and it was told to my face). She got brutal when I exposed and came at me with both barrels. Heck when she told her dad we were engaged, he said "what were you drunk when that happened?" (I only recently found this great one out).
> 
> *The thing is that she can't win the kids back and they look at her with trust, concern, and dismay every time she says anything (they have no trust in her anymore).*
> 
> Heck on my b'day I didn't even get a "happy b'day" just got criticisms of my parenting skills. She is a real pice of work, and this from someone we trust to teach or kids and mold their minds and hearts. Great role model here!


That is the thing, infidelity does not just decimate the BS but the ENTIRE family. When a H or W steps out they are betraying the WHOLE family and not just the spouse. I'm very sorry you and your children have to go through this.


----------



## Headspin

Truthseeker1 said:


> That is the thing, infidelity does not just decimate the BS but the ENTIRE family. When a H or W steps out they are betraying the WHOLE family and not just the spouse



And THAT is the crux, that is the chasm of difference in the perceptive ability between a justifying cheat and say, me, a regular guy.

I _know_ if I had ever got hooked up with an AP I would be throwing EVERYTHING into the trash - EVERYTHING - kids her family relatives futures other marriages, a history of achievement and general happiness etc etc 

If they perceive they are hurting anyone at all, the wayward thinks they are only throwing _*you*_ the betrayed into the trash .....and that's because they are 'justified' - not having their 'needs' met ' and that's okay

It really is complete selfishness of the highest order.


----------



## TimeHeals

EI said:


> I will apologize ONLY for making an incorrect assumption about the kind of attorney that Chump Lady's husband is.



That's not what you did, though, so it's sort of a non-apology.

Part of what you did is imply she had a hidden agenda and that involved her and her husband making a lot of $$$$ money off promoting the idea that you ought to dump cheaters.

That entire narrative was dishonest and manipulative on top of being libelous.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

Truthseeker1 said:


> That is the thing, infidelity does not just decimate the BS but the ENTIRE family. When a H or W steps out they are betraying the WHOLE family and not just the spouse. I'm very sorry you and your children have to go through this.


.....I'm kinda' guessing that IF the infidelity is exposed ...to the whole family ..in particular any children ...then yes, the impact is widespread. In my case ...I have told not one soul (other than a therapist) about my wife's ONS ....and have carried that issue by myself ....inside with no support or outlet from anyone "close".

.....so I've been 'selfish' in order to somewhat "protect the innocent". I say "somewhat" ....because I will admit I'm not the person that I was before her infidelity ...nor am I the person I should have become. That impacts the family ...and I guess it impacts me too?

...to this day ...I truly believe that my wife feels that the only 'hurt' party ...is me. (_and ...let me add ....she doesn't feel I should *still* be "that" hurt)_


----------



## Squeakr

TimeHeals said:


> That's not what you did, though, so it's sort of a non-apology.
> 
> Part of what you did is imply she had a hidden agenda and that involved her and her husband making a lot of $$$$ money off promoting the idea that you ought to dump cheaters.
> 
> That entire narrative was dishonest and manipulative on top of being libelous.


It's a perfectly valid apology. One can apologize for only certain things and place limitations on what they are apologizing for, just as she has done (whether she did more or less she only has to apologize for the things she wants to). If I insult someone and make a misspoken statement in the course, it is perfectly valid for me to apologize for the misspoken statement only and let the other rants stand as is (whether truthful or valid, I don't have to apologize for anything I don't want to unless court ordered).

As to the rest of your statement, that is her opinion and everyone if entitled to one. Whether it meets the strict definition of libel or not also needs to take into account intentions. E1 stated it was her opinions and she is not out there making these statements to directly affect the reputation and ability to earn for the defamed so it really isn't truly libel to be charged as such. Why bring it up other than to "challenge" E1, as it adds nothing to the thread???


----------



## Squeakr

Hurtin_Still said:


> .....I'm kinda' guessing that IF the infidelity is exposed ...to the whole family ..in particular any children ...then yes, the impact is widespread. In my case ...I have told not one soul (other than a therapist) about my wife's ONS ....and have carried that issue by myself ....inside with no support or outlet from anyone "close".
> 
> .....so I've been 'selfish' in order to somewhat "protect the innocent". I say "somewhat" ....because I will admit I'm not the person that I was before her infidelity ...nor am I the person I should have become. That impacts the family ...and I guess it impacts me too?
> 
> ...to this day ...I truly believe that my wife feels that the only 'hurt' party ...is me. (_and ...let me add ....she doesn't feel I should *still* be "that" hurt)_


She has also changed as well, and the demographic between the 2 of you also, so yes the kids were affected indirectly.

That is the ams feeling that my wife has regarding the hurt. She will ask the kids what they think (we have also had them to counseling and the counselor said they seemed generally unaffected, they do have hang ups and reservations due to the infidelity, but nothing to worry about their well being for the future at this point) so she says that it never "really" affected them. Great way to think and justify. She has gone to IC and always comes back to throw it in my face that she doesn't meet the profile I have her in. the problem is that she has the ability to tell people what they want to hear and make them see what she wants them too. Manipulative.


----------



## TimeHeals

Squeakr said:


> It's a perfectly valid apology. One can apologize for only certain things and place limitations on what they are apologizing for, just as she has done (whether she did more or less she only has to apologize for the things she wants to). If I insult someone and make a misspoken statement in the course, it is perfectly valid for me to apologize for the misspoken statement only and let the other rants stand as is (whether truthful or valid, I don't have to apologize for anything I don't want to unless court ordered).
> 
> As to the rest of your statement, that is her opinion and everyone if entitled to one. Whether it meets the strict definition of libel or not also needs to take into account intentions. E1 stated it was her opinions



Total nonsense. Implying that somebody is making a lot of money promoting some idea is not a matter of opinion.. It's about facts, and it's either true or it is not true. Her husband isn't a divorce attorney (no profit there), the blog is a loss leader (opposite of making money). The whole smear is demonstrably not true. 

To simply make such things up in an effort to 'discredit' somebody is manipulative and libelous, and quite frankly doesn't promote a good impression of one's character.


----------



## chumplady

> If I insult someone and make a misspoken statement in the course, it is perfectly valid for me to apologize for the misspoken statement only and let the other rants stand as is (whether truthful or valid, I don't have to apologize for anything I don't want to unless court ordered).


Squeakr, in fairness there was a lot more than one inaccuracy other than my husband doesn't do divorce law and make huge money. (He's a civil rights lawyer who works with poor people.)

He doesn't troll my site for clients. That's monumentally stupid -- he can only do law in the state of Texas. Not Maryland. Not Nigeria. Not India. Or anywhere else my blog is read. 

I do not get paid to write for HuffPo. Bloggers are not paid at HuffPo. The currency is links to a book (I have no book, right now) and links to the blog.

My blog produces negative cash flow. It receives income from donations and Amazon ads. At some point, sure it might monetize. But as of today nothing pays me for my time, the money spent to build it, copyright the artwork, and maintain the site. 

So that's four inaccuracies there right off the top of my head. Sure, people are entitled to their opinions and EI doesn't like my message, that's fine. I suspect she wouldn't, as I encourage people to leave remorseless cheaters. 

But facts are facts -- and it's best to get them right if you want people to take your opinions seriously.


----------



## Squeakr

chumplady said:


> Squeakr, in fairness there was a lot more than one inaccuracy other than my husband doesn't do divorce law and make huge money. (He's a civil rights lawyer who works with poor people.)
> 
> He doesn't troll my site for clients. That's monumentally stupid -- he can only do law in the state of Texas. Not Maryland. Not Nigeria. Not India. Or anywhere else my blog is read.
> 
> I do not get paid to write for HuffPo. Bloggers are not paid at HuffPo. The currency is links to a book (I have no book, right now) and links to the blog.
> 
> My blog produces negative cash flow. It receives income from donations and Amazon ads. At some point, sure it might monetize. But as of today nothing pays me for my time, the money spent to build it, copyright the artwork, and maintain the site.
> 
> So that's four inaccuracies there right off the top of my head. Sure, people are entitled to their opinions and EI doesn't like my message, that's fine. I suspect she wouldn't, as I encourage people to leave remorseless cheaters.
> 
> But facts are facts -- and it's best to get them right if you want people to take your opinions seriously.


Yes, but that still doesn't change the fact that people have the right to apologize for what they want and that is what I was trying to say and state. Whether 1, 2, or 400 inaccuracies were involved doesn't matter, people aren't required ever (unless like I stated by a court order, and even then they can violate that if they choose) to apologize for any of them. They can choose which they want to apologize for and that is what she has done. That is all I was stating.

The facts you are stating are only facts know to you, as we have no proof that it does or doesn't occur. Unless this is published and proven fact somewhere it is merely hearsay as far as we know and thus yes it would be an inaccuracy but only you would know that, we as the public have no knowledge otherwise.

I can state the sky is green to blind people as it may be green to me, but that doesn't make it so, and they have no way of proving or disproving my claims, so they would be inaccuracies and not necessarily facts. The better term here is theory as facts are proven and verifiable, of which we can do neither in this case.


----------



## Squeakr

TimeHeals said:


> Total nonsense. *Implying* that somebody is making a lot of money promoting some idea is not a matter of opinion.. It's about facts, and it's either true or it is not true. Her husband isn't a divorce attorney (no profit there), the blog is a loss leader (opposite of making money). The whole smear is demonstrably not true.
> 
> To simply make such things up in an effort to 'discredit' somebody is manipulative and libelous, and quite frankly doesn't promote a good impression of one's character.


You keep using the word "implying" which means to draw a logical conclusion. No where in the ideal of implication is there a direct correlation to facts and them being supported. Facts are provable and verifiable entities. Some of the claims might be outrageous or desirable but we really have no proof that the statements are facts other than one party's claims. 

If it is a fact then tell me how you would prove or disprove that a client might have come from the website. or that "lots" of money was made from such activities. There is no real way to state either without a doubt or a matter of opinion (something facts do unquestionably). Stating someone is making lots of money is completely opinion. What is the definition of "lots"in this case if it was a fact there would be no question as to what it means? To some lots = millions, and to others lots = 1000's, and yet to others lots = minimum wage and even less. 

It all depends on your lot in life and perspective, so that is truly opinion based. If you don't believe or agree with it, does it make that fact or opinion? To a kid a penny is lots of money, but to the CEO that grew it on the ground it is not lots of money. When subjective like that it is truly opinion based.


----------



## TimeHeals

Squeakr said:


> You keep using the word "implying" which means to draw a logical conclusion..


Yes, because the inference is plain as day. 

That was her whole point with making those false claims: imply there was some nefarious motive involving money. 

Go back and read that nonsense, list the innacuracies and then tell me what the point of those are. This is not a difficult excercize, IMO.

I don't get the crux of your opposition. If you have a point make it. Don't be obtuse and pretend that outright lies weren't told. Hand waving about people being 'allowed" to apologize for whatever they want or pretending false statements are not false is just silly.

Nobody demanded any sort of apology. It was pointed out, however, that what was offered was a mock apology (e.g." I apologize ONLY for 'assuming' ..".). That's not an apology. Why invoke the word?

You're the only one arguing about "what somebody can apologize for" or that false statements are not false or that the point of those false statements is not obvious, and I challenge anybody to go back and read those false statements and come to any other conclusion about the point (false as it was) the writer was making.

You see, I don't really care if the writer (EI, was it?) has any remorse at all about making crap up about other people. I don't even care if EI fabricates things constantly to defame others and kicks puppies for sport, or even if she is a flaming sociopath and incapable of remorse. An apology is not required.

I don't like mock apologies, and I don't like manipulative behavior, and I also don't care much for people who make up excuses for the bad behavior of others.


----------



## NeverMore

TimeHeals said:


> Yes, because the inference is plain as day.
> 
> That was her whole point with making those false claims: imply there was some nefarious motive involving money.
> 
> Go back and read that nonsense, list the innacuracies and then tell me what the point of those are. This is not a difficult excercize, IMO.
> 
> I don't get the crux of your opposition. If you have a point make it. Don't be obtuse and pretend that outright lies weren't told. Hand waving about people being 'allowed" to apologize for whatever they want or pretending false statements are not false is just silly.
> 
> Nobody demanded any sort of apology. It was pointed out, however, that what was offered was a mock apology (e.g." I apologize ONLY for 'assuming' ..".). That's not an apology. Why invoke the word?
> 
> You're the only one arguing about "what somebody can apologize for" or that false statements are not false or that the point of those false statements is not obvious, and I challenge anybody to go back and read those false statements and come to any other conclusion about the point (false as it was) the writer was making.
> 
> You see, I don't really care if the writer (EI, was it?) has any remorse at all about making crap up about other people. I don't even care if EI fabricates things constantly to defame others and kicks puppies for sport, or even if she is a flaming sociopath and incapable of remorse. An apology is not required.
> 
> I don't like mock apologies, and I don't like manipulative behavior.


:iagree::iagree: Exactly.


----------



## Squeakr

TimeHeals said:


> That was her whole point with making those false claims: imply there was some nefarious motive involving money.


She believed them to be true from her conclusions, so she wasn't "purposely" making false claims. Have you never said something based upon your perception that turned out to be incorrect, but you would have had no way to know that when it was spoken?



> Go back and read that nonsense, iist the innacuracies and then tell me what the point of those are. This is not a difficult excercize, IMO.


I wouldn't know what are and aren't inaccuracies, as I myself might have drawn the same conclusions (not saying I would, but it is not hard to assume that someone makes money off their web endeavors and that they are paid for their publishing as well. Most other sites I read that have columnists are paid, and many paid well, so why is that such a stretch to believe??). You seem to be implying that she knew all of this and was purposely stating false facts? Do you know this for a truth, or are you doing as E1 did and assuming? Also would you have known what was false and what was true if Chump_Lady hadn't pointed out the inaccuracies (as they weren't immediately evident to me, yet you state it is so evident)?



> I don't get the crux of your opposition. If you have a point make it. Hand waving about people being 'allowed" to apologize for whatever they want or pretending false statements are not false is just silly.


That is the point I am making that we have the right to apologize for or not apologize for what ever we want. How do you know her statements are false, did you prove them? You haven't proven them (or provided proof) so how can you say they are false or true without doubt? Your claims are no more valid as facts than hers. I can claim I am an astronaut, cop, teacher, whatever, and only I truly know if that statement is true or false, and no one else can claim otherwise unless they specifically know me and my history. You can't claim it is false just because you believe I have an agenda in my posting?



> Nobody demanded any sort of apology. It was pointed out, however, that what was offered was a mock apology (e.g." I apologize ONLY for 'assuming' ..".). That's not an apology. Why invoke the word?


Acgtually several posters did demand an apology. Go back and read it, as you say, as that is evident (Chump_lady said she needed not apologize as those were her feelings and opinions and she had a right to them, so why do you get to say her apology is not valid?). 

Nice that you cut out the rest of the statement as it changes the meaning. E1 said she apologized for "making an incorrect assumption about the the kind of attorney". That is an apology for her "wrongly making an assumption as to his expertise" and that is a valid apology, not a mock apology. Have you never made a wrong collusion or assumption and then had to retract that through an apology??



> You're the only one arguing about "what somebody can apologize for" or that false statements are not false or that the point of those false statements is not obvious, and I challenge anybody to go back and read those false statements and come to any other conclusion about the point (false as it was) the writer was making.


Wrong again. If you are repeatedly making claims about the validity of an apology (saying it was not an apology and a mock-apology) then you are arguing about what you feel someone should and can apologize for to be considered a valid apology. Remember you started this exchange with your assessment of E1's apology and how it didn't meet your standards.


I am not arguing that she had a motive or ideal behind the posting, as we all do when we post. That is the nature of the internet, just that she has a right to state what she wants and apologize as she sees fit and until something is proven otherwise, it is not automatically assumed factual.


----------



## russell28

I admit I thought EI's attack on chumpladys character was in poor taste, and her apology was pretty weak. She did attack the nice lady's husband with half baked facts. I also thought chumplady took it very easy on her considering the tone of the post and the implications that her motives may be less than genuine. I figured she handled it how she wanted to handle it though, and didn't need anyone else to intervene. She seems very capable of taking care of herself.

I'm going to take a break now. Have a great holiday weekend everyone. Try to play nice.


----------



## Hermione

In general, while I appreciate Chump Lady's passion, I don't like her attitude towards betrayeds who reconcile, and she skewers waywards, even repentant ones. I understand her attitude towards waywards and reconciliation, but to paint all betrayeds and waywards the same- that's something entirely different. She absolutely does not like to be challenged on this issue. I read Chump Lady, but probably not for the same reasons others might. 

She has taken this thread and turned it into a skewering of EI. 

Much as she did to Elle of Betrayed Wives Club blog.

It gets old, but I knew as soon as I saw this thread, that would be what she did. And she did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Healer

"Best of luck, idiot."

LOL. I love this Chump Lady, whoever she is. Hilarious and on the money.


----------



## TimeHeals

Hermione said:


> IShe has taken this thread and turned it into a skewering of EI.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


. :scratchhead:

That's funny.

Person (EI, right?) makes up lies to defame somebody. People point out the lies of this EI person and the manipulative weirdness of the smear, and this means the target of said smear is really the the "bad person".

Right. Lies, libel, manipulative behavior = good. Sarcastic mock apologies = good.

Pointing out that lies, manipulative behavior and mock apologies are bad behavior = bad.

In other news, Up is now Down, Right is now Left, and Orwell's "Doublethink" is no longer a literary device in a dystopian novel parodying the dysfunction and inhumantiy of totalitarian regimes, it's an inspirational end goal we should all aspire toward.

Fantanstic.

So what sort of crap should people make up about you? I mean, assuming we can find somebody with no integrity who doesn't mind making up stuff about you?


----------



## xakulax

TimeHeals said:


> . :scratchhead:
> 
> That's funny.
> 
> Person (EI, right?) makes up lies to defame somebody. People point out the lies of this EI person and the manipulative weirdness of the smear, and this means the target of said smear is really the the "bad person".
> 
> Right. Lies, libel, manipulative behavior = good. Sarcastic mock apologies = good.
> 
> Pointing out that lies, manipulative behavior and mock apologies are bad behavior = bad.
> 
> In other news, Up is now Down, Right is now Left, and Orwell's "Doublethink" is no longer a literary device in a dystopian novel parodying the dysfunction and inhumantiy of totalitarian regimes, it's an inspirational end goal we should all aspire toward.
> 
> Fantanstic.
> 
> So what sort of crap should people make up about you? I mean, assuming we can find somebody with no integrity who doesn't mind making up stuff about you?



:iagree::iagree:


----------



## Truthseeker1

Hi all,

This thread is not about EI v. Chump lady it is about lame excuses given by cheaters for their cheating. Is the list exhaustive - no - but it is worth skewering - THE LIST - not each other. These sites are popping up all over the place and it is a sad, sad development - as if infidelity was not easy enough already. . Chump lady handled it well can we get back to the list please? Thanks.


----------



## xakulax

Truthseeker1 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> This thread is not about EI v. Chump lady it is about lame excuses given by cheaters for their cheating. Is the list exhaustive - no - but it is worth skewering - THE LIST - not each other. These sites are popping up all over the place and it is a sad, sad development - as if infidelity was not easy enough already. . Chump lady handled it well can we get back to the list please? Thanks.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

I agree I think it's time to get back on the main issue


----------



## Squeakr

TimeHeals said:


> Person (EI, right?) makes up lies to defame somebody. People point out the lies of this EI person and the manipulative weirdness of the smear, and this means the target of said smear is really the the "bad person".
> 
> Right. Lies, libel, manipulative behavior = good. Sarcastic mock apologies = good.
> 
> Pointing out that lies, manipulative behavior and mock apologies are bad behavior = bad.


So I went back and re-read the post, maybe you should as well. Event though it was heated and definitely slanted, everything stated within it (except for the specialty of the lawyer husband) was stated as nothing more than speculation on EI's part.

Whether you agree with what was written or not, nothing within it was stated as facts or tried to pass off as such. You are so adamant about pointing out her lies, what about yours? You are claiming that EI "made up these lies to defame" somebody. Do you know this for a fact as you are stating it as such and therefor doing exactly what you claim she is, so how does that make you the better person here to pass judgement on another?

She stated some inaccuracies (and Chump-Lady has stated this exact wording as well, only you are throwing around libel, lies, defamation, etc, which if it were true wouldn't Chump_lady be using those terms as well, as her H is a lawyer? ), but I see no incorrect "facts". I see lots of probablys and possiblys and other adverbs to shown speculation and conclusion on the part of EI.

I am not sure what the witch hunt here is all about, but she has never stated anything to be a fact and merely her speculation or interpretation/ conclusion of something, which is also an opinion (and what Chump_lady originally called it as well, as did I).

You want to throw around words like lies, libel, defamation, etc. You need to look those up so you use them correctly. None of your claims are valid and would hold up in a court of law, so to state that is wrong. To prove them you would need to show that Chump_Lady has lost income or suffered negatively due to the statements (which were just slanted and inaccurate and she states she makes no income from her work, so she has no standing here). Being that she is a public figure by posting regularly on the HuffPost, she would also need to prove malicious intent was the original ideal behind the statements being made, which they were just heated responses to a slanted post from Chump_Lady (as let's face it that posting wasn't the most unbiased writing we have seen in a while). 

Would not the breadth of the article calling cheaters bad, bad, bad people and idiots also be lies and libel then according to your terms, and would not Chump_lady be presenting them as facts also?

Edit: I was typing this response before Truthseeker's last, which I agree with.


----------



## TimeHeals

Squeakr said:


> So I went back and re-read the post, maybe you should as well. Event though it was heated and definitely slanted, everything stated within it (except for the specialty of the lawyer husband) was stated as nothing more than speculation on EI's part.


LOL

And I quote



EI said:


> Her hubby makes his big bucks off of handling big money divorces. And, the Chump Lady makes hers off of continuously stirring the venom pot, of those who have been affected by infidelity, in her regular column/blog/whatever it is, in The Huffington Post. To quote the famous line from a Seinfeld episode, "Not that there's anything wrong with that!" And, I suppose there isn't...... really??? But, what exactly is good about her column? Well, it's probably a very good source of income for the Chump Lady, and her high-priced divorce lawyer hubby! In fact, it may even help keep her hubby's business booming by providing an ongoing, and steady source of disgruntled, stirred, and shaken clientele! And, that, too, would be very good for the Chump Lady, indeed!
> 
> It must be a virtual hate-fest, at their home, in the evenings, what with all of their certain comparing of notes about the "Bad! Bad! Badness! of all idiot cheaters." I do hope that Chump Lady's son, with the idiot cheater that is Chump's former husband, is not frequently present for all of these conversation


Let's count only the lies I immediately recognize as lies only from this one fragment (I am not even going to pretend this is an exhaustive list):

1. Husband not a divorce attorney.

2. Husband not trolling her blog/column for clients or benefiting in any way from people who decide to leave their unrepentant and abusive spouses. There is no 'may' about it. (see #1)

3. Blogers at Huffington Post aren't paid as far as I know. (Heck there are even staff members who are unpaid. That could be--and has been--the subject of many articles. At any rate, Tracy isn't paid, and I am not aware of any paid blogger at Huffington Post).

4. Her son's father didn't cheat, so the poor dear can stop worrying and dry those crocadile tears over the possibility that he might overhear some unfortunate slip about why playing hide the salami with somebody other than your spouse might be bad, hurtful behavior;although, it just warms your heart--I bet--to think that somebody can express such misplaced concern over the rearing of somebody else's child, complete with imagined, possible parental alienation, huh? Almost sounds like some private personal secrecy obsession projected onto a complete stranger when you consider it has no basis in fact whatsoever.

We could keep going, but that's enough to verify the lack of credibility and illustrate's the writer's theme: there is an ulterior motive behind Tracy's blog (and Huffington post reprints), and it's money.. Despite the fact... none is being made to date by any member of her household.

If I really thought arguing with you would do any good, though, I could dissect the whole thing and explore possible motives and character implications, but we both know it's a waste of time, right?

Oh well, time to be going. I have to walk the dogs, clean house, and get ready to go to a hatefest where it's considered uncool and unkind to just make crap up about people to run them down or play hide the salami with people other than your spouse, and it's considered good to be faithful, truthful and other such "nasty, hateful" things.

Y'all feel free to treat each other differently. The Hatefest isn't up for the cheating and lying and such.


----------



## Squeakr

TimeHeals said:


> LOL
> 
> And I quote
> 
> 
> 
> Let's count only the lies I immediately recognize as lies only from
> ....
> 
> Oh well, time to be going. I have to walk the dogs, clean house, and get ready to go to a hatefest where it's considered uncool and unkind to just make crap up about people to run them down or play hide the salami with people other than your spouse, and it' considered good to be faithful, truthful and other nasty, hateful things.


I omitted the bulk of the text to save space.
But let's address your charges:

1) This inaccuracy was already pointed out to be a wrong assumption, and she apologized for making that wrong assumption. Too bad that is not good enough for you, as I guess you are the bastion and guardian of all that is good and evil and if it doesn't meet your stamp of approval and standards. then it doesn't exist. Please, just stop beating a dead horse here. Just because the apology doesn't meet your standards, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

2) This statement was predicated upon the inaccuracy of #1 so this really doesn't count as some separate made up lie, but go ahead and classify it as you will. Also read it and she nearly speculates that the H may be doing such and this is helping his practice, so it was never stated as a fact, like you are claiming, it was a speculation or inference. Which is different than a statement of fact meant to slander, defame, or libel someone, jot is just her guess.

3) You have no proof and state such with your comment" as far as I know", and are solely basing your argument points upon Chump_lady's claims. Are you also not possibly substantiating lies and quoting them as facts when you state yourself that you don't know for a fact that they get paid or not (as when EI did this she is charged with lying?)? Good argument to base it upon conjecture on you part, that proves a lot!! You know these bloggers personally and can verify all you claim, or is it conjecture based upon your readings solely?

4) Do you know for fact that the son's father didn't cheat. Chump_lady was married prior to a serial cheater (and even admits so in this thread), and you are sure that the current H is the father of the son (or are you equating father with the one that raised the son, as technically they are both fathers)? I am asking as I honestly don't know and you have shown no proof. Instead you continue to do as you say "hand waving" to draw attention away from the issues you claim are false by going into some rant about cheating, which has nothing to do with whether the father was a cheater or not. "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!!" (also I find it odd that this in not one of the inaccuracies that Chump_lady pointed out, so I guess you know more than her about her life, right??)

So once again you have really found 1 known falsehood that YOU can prove (and one other inaccuracies based upon that falsehood/ mistake), yet you continue to claim it is all lies. It might be wrong but it is not a "made up lie" if she truly believed that the information she was stating was the correct information. She made a mistake and apologized for that mistake.

You can continually break it down if you want line by line to vilify her character if you wish, but all you are going to prove is that she had a slanted view and stated it. No more than you are doing with your smoke and mirrors witch hunt. You have claimed she lied, defamed, and committed libel, yet those have not been proven so are you to not lying with tees statements? (Just because you think or say something is a certain way doesn't make it so and until she is convicted in court she had done none of those. This is the US where people are innocent until proven guilty).

You know you really don't have verifiable proof and a good argument when you start to go off on tangents about walking dogs, hiding the salami, and hatefests regarding spousal infidelity. It is just something said to belittle. Gotta say, things like that reveal a lot about one's character as well.

It would have been nice to have a logical discussion with you, but you (like you state about EI) have an agenda to get across and it is blatantly obvious. Why not admit and own up to that??



I am done with this threadjack as it is going no where and you are only beating a dead horse trying to prove EI a liar with no proof of your own other than your statements to the opposite. Is she slanted and biased in her post? Yes, but then again we all are. Do we have an agenda? Yes, we all do otherwise we wouldn't have anything to post or any reason to post. Face those facts and move on as Chump-Lady did.


----------



## JustGrinding

This post has run its useful course. i wonder if we could get a moderator to apply the wiping paper and the flush, which is desperately needed at this point.


----------



## Vega

Truthseeker1 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> it is about lame excuses given by cheaters for their cheating.
> 
> 
> These sites are popping up all over the place and it is a sad, sad development - as if infidelity was not easy enough already. .


Yes Truthseeker, I agree. Lists like what Chump Lady wrote about are all over the internet. Unfortunately, there are so many lists like these that I wonder if cheaters themselves see them and say, "See? My *reasons* are _valid_!" 

But cheaters who have actually done the hard uncomfortable work on themselves eventually come up with a new list:

I cheated because I was selfish.
I cheated because I felt entitled.
I cheated because I was a coward.
I cheated because I wanted to...

The TRUTH is where the focus needs to be.

Vega


----------



## Hermione

TimeHeals said:


> . :scratchhead:
> 
> That's funny.
> 
> Person (EI, right?) makes up lies to defame somebody. People point out the lies of this EI person and the manipulative weirdness of the smear, and this means the target of said smear is really the the "bad person".
> 
> Right. Lies, libel, manipulative behavior = good. Sarcastic mock apologies = good.
> 
> Pointing out that lies, manipulative behavior and mock apologies are bad behavior = bad.
> 
> In other news, Up is now Down, Right is now Left, and Orwell's "Doublethink" is no longer a literary device in a dystopian novel parodying the dysfunction and inhumantiy of totalitarian regimes, it's an inspirational end goal we should all aspire toward.
> 
> Fantanstic.
> 
> So what sort of crap should people make up about you? I mean, assuming we can find somebody with no integrity who doesn't mind making up stuff about you?


Dude. Calm yourself. LOL You may want to read what I actually said before you leap to wherever it is you went with this. 

Chump Lady is great, so long as you agree with her completely. 

I think she is witty. I think she has made lemonade out of a crapload of lemons.

And I think she can be spiteful to people, and skewer them on her website ( which is what I was speaking about. Her article posted today.) It's totally her right to do so. Of course it is. It's also my right to notice the pattern. 
http://chumplady.com/2014/05/when-splendid-people-cheat/

If you would like to make up stories about me on the Internet for pointing that out? Go ahead. Have fun with that. Strange hobby.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718

chumplady said:


> Squeakr, in fairness there was a lot more than one inaccuracy other than my husband doesn't do divorce law and make huge money. (He's a civil rights lawyer who works with poor people.)
> 
> He doesn't troll my site for clients. That's monumentally stupid -- he can only do law in the state of Texas. Not Maryland. Not Nigeria. Not India. Or anywhere else my blog is read.
> 
> I do not get paid to write for HuffPo. Bloggers are not paid at HuffPo. The currency is links to a book (I have no book, right now) and links to the blog.
> 
> My blog produces negative cash flow. It receives income from donations and Amazon ads. At some point, sure it might monetize. But as of today nothing pays me for my time, the money spent to build it, copyright the artwork, and maintain the site.
> 
> So that's four inaccuracies there right off the top of my head. Sure, people are entitled to their opinions and EI doesn't like my message, that's fine. I suspect she wouldn't, as I encourage people to leave remorseless cheaters.
> 
> But facts are facts -- and it's best to get them right if you want people to take your opinions seriously.


Well, there you go. You are implying that EI is (or was) a remorseless cheater right? Shall I guess that you owe her an apology?

Once we get started finding faults, there is no end to it.


----------



## Squeakr

sidney2718 said:


> Well, there you go. You are implying that EI is (or was) a remorseless cheater right? Shall I guess that you owe her an apology?
> 
> Once we get started finding faults, there is no end to it.


I tried to ignore that but that is how I read it as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

i caught it too...


----------



## sidney2718

Squeakr said:


> Wrong again. If you are repeatedly making claims about the validity of an apology (saying it was not an apology and a mock-apology) then you are arguing about what you feel someone should and can apologize for to be considered a valid apology. Remember you started this exchange with your assessment of E1's apology and how it didn't meet your standards.


Folks who are relatively new here may not know E1's actual story. Suffice it to say that she's rather sensitive about folks whose frequent advice to cheaters is to kick them to the curb. I'm the same way. Sometimes I quite wrongly infer that someone is in that group. Others sometimes assume that I am totally against divorcing cheaters. That would be a wrong assumption too.

But that's what happens in forums. I try not to make a personal deal out of it.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

sidney..well put my friend


----------



## xakulax

Could we please go back to the main issue of this thread or even better could a moderator remove any non topic related post pleas hell you can get rid of mine I don't care I would like to get back to the topic at hand not another posters opinion about other posters this is not what the OP wants so can we pleas respect his wishes and move the hell on.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

and help me....what is the topic at hand?

chump lady who has been cheated on is now a fvcking expert on cheaters? and she is divorced so she is an expert on reconciliation?

help me out here...she writes a blog so she is an expert?

Fatithfulwife writes a blog
simply amorous writes a blog
threetimesalady writes a blog
anon pink writes a blog

shall i keep going?

you can write a blog..i can write a blog...joe blow can write a blog...my daughter writes a blog

AND YOUR POINT IS?????????


----------



## GusPolinski

I just started a blog as well. It's not about marriage or anything, though... I just figured that I should start a blog in order to help get my fledgling Keurig repair business get off the ground.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

You go girl! Uh boy


----------



## Squeakr

GusPolinski said:


> I just started a blog as well. It's not about marriage or anything, though... I just figured that I should start a blog in order to help get my fledgling Keurig repair business get off the ground.


As cheap as they are, there is a demand for repairs of those? I figured they would be throw away like most electronics in this age? It's usually hard enough to even get parts these days.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

Squeakr said:


> As cheap as they are, there is a demand for repairs of those? I figured they would be throw away like most electronics in this age? It's usually hard enough to even get parts these days.


*cough* I've done something horrible...


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

look the bottom line is this..you can second guess me as a fww all you want to...you can dissect, analyze..whatever

how the fvck can you KNOW why i cheated since i myself do not have a fvking clue?

i can tell you that i cheated because i was selfish....i was only thinking about myself at the time

if you dare try to go any further than that because you were the BS..be my guest

chump lady is a smart cookie...she is a successful writer...she has a following...God bless her

but let me tell you this...her opinion is no different than anyone else's opinion here.

she still puts her pants on one leg at a time
she is divorced as a result of infidelity and has NEVER reconciled
she has no idea what a true remorseful WS is...because she has never experienced it

do not try to figure me out...do not make assumptions about me...

you do not have a fvking clue who i am


----------



## Headspin

Christ woman who twisted your knickers !?

Fsakes 

I've stayed out of this but fk me facts are Chump Lady has been hit with some crap early on in this thread and defended herself and that seems to have upset a few people namely some fww's

Why?

Btw I'm not defending CLady as she is clearly able to do that more than adequately on her own

But why the vitriol about it 

I don't get what CLady has done here to bring the world to it's knees - she's a betrayed spouse who can very eloquently and pointedly explain how being betrayed works in a way that we betrayed understand and get fully 

Wtf is wrong with that ?


----------



## jim123

Mrs. John Adams said:


> look the bottom line is this..you can second guess me as a fww all you want to...you can dissect, analyze..whatever
> 
> how the fvck can you KNOW why i cheated since i myself do not have a fvking clue?
> 
> i can tell you that i cheated because i was selfish....i was only thinking about myself at the time
> 
> if you dare try to go any further than that because you were the BS..be my guest
> 
> chump lady is a smart cookie...she is a successful writer...she has a following...God bless her
> 
> but let me tell you this...her opinion is no different than anyone else's opinion here.
> 
> she still puts her pants on one leg at a time
> she is divorced as a result of infidelity and has NEVER reconciled
> she has no idea what a true remorseful WS is...because she has never experienced it
> 
> do not try to figure me out...do not make assumptions about me...
> 
> you do not have a fvking clue who i am


All I know from the survey is that if JA was half as funny as you, you would not have cheated.

What we should do is use Chump Lady's husband to sue the school districts for not teaching comedy which per the survey caused the problem.

Of course he will get his third to a half.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

I am a fww....I am a betrayed spouse.

Shall I write a blog?

I can explain how both sides feel.

Can she do that?


----------



## jim123

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I am a fww....I am a betrayed spouse.
> 
> Shall I write a blog?
> 
> I can explain how both sides feel.
> 
> Can she do that?


Since you are also a BS, I guess you are not as funny as I thought. Sorry.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams

Oh jim...I am pretty funny...and pretty smart too

I can see a whole lot of stuff going on around here...remember the Joni Mitchell song

Bows and flows of angel hair and ice cream castles in the air
and feather canyons everywhere, I've looked at clouds that way.
But now they only block the sun, they rain and snow on everyone.
So many things I would have done but clouds got in my way.

I've looked at clouds from both sides now,
from up and down, and still somehow
it's cloud illusions I recall.
I really don't know clouds at all.

Moons and Junes and ferris wheels, the dizzy dancing way that you feel
as every fairy tale comes real; I've looked at love that way.
But now it's just another show. You leave 'em laughing when you go
and if you care, don't let them know, don't give yourself away.

I've looked at love from both sides now,
from give and take, and still somehow
it's love's illusions that I recall.
I really don't know love at all.

Tears and fears and feeling proud, to say "I love you" right out loud,
dreams and schemes and circus crowds, I've looked at life that way.
But now old friends are acting strange, they shake their heads, they say
I've changed.
Something's lost but something's gained in living every day.

I've looked at life from both sides now,
from win and lose, and still somehow
it's life's illusions I recall.
I really don't know life at all.


Well...that's me

I am so lucky...

I think I will write a blog....


----------



## jim123

chumplady said:


> Squeakr, in fairness there was a lot more than one inaccuracy other than my husband doesn't do divorce law and make huge money. (He's a civil rights lawyer who works with poor people.)
> 
> He doesn't troll my site for clients. That's monumentally stupid -- he can only do law in the state of Texas. Not Maryland. Not Nigeria. Not India. Or anywhere else my blog is read.
> 
> I do not get paid to write for HuffPo. Bloggers are not paid at HuffPo. The currency is links to a book (I have no book, right now) and links to the blog.
> 
> My blog produces negative cash flow. It receives income from donations and Amazon ads. At some point, sure it might monetize. But as of today nothing pays me for my time, the money spent to build it, copyright the artwork, and maintain the site.
> 
> So that's four inaccuracies there right off the top of my head. Sure, people are entitled to their opinions and EI doesn't like my message, that's fine. I suspect she wouldn't, as I encourage people to leave remorseless cheaters.
> 
> But facts are facts -- and it's best to get them right if you want people to take your opinions seriously.


It is interesting that you play so nice here but are attacking EI and others on your blog in the most vile way.


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## owl6118

I've given a lot of interviews over the years. And I've interviewed and quoted a lot of people over the years. 

I must say, Tracy is the first person ever to take a quote I gave out of context, and reprint it, unattributed, and combined with someone else's words entirely. 

Interesting to see what becomes of one's thoughts in the hands of a skilled polemicist.

<shrug>


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## jim123

Well I read the blog and all the comments from the Chumps.

I have good news, I know why they all were cheated on.

It was an exit affair.


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## jim123

owl6118 said:


> I've given a lot of interviews over the years. And I've interviewed and quoted a lot of people over the years.
> 
> I must say, Tracy is the first person ever to take a quote I gave out of context, and reprint it, unattributed, and combined with someone else's words entirely.
> 
> Interesting to see what becomes of one's thoughts in the hands of a skilled polemicist.
> 
> <shrug>


Hey, I am not even getting misquoted.


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## xakulax

jim123 said:


> Well I read the blog and all the comments from the Chumps.
> 
> I have good news, I know why they all were cheated on.
> 
> It was an exit affair.




WOW just WOW I'm actually amazed at how far off this thread has gotten now smh the lack of intellect or empathy has become abhorrent.


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## jim123

xakulax said:


> WOW just WOW I'm actually amazed at how far off this thread has gotten now smh the lack of intellect or empathy has become abhorrent.



Read Chump Lady's blog and all the comments and you will see what a lack of empathy is.


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## Truthseeker1

jim123 said:


> Well I read the blog and all the comments from the Chumps.
> 
> I have good news, I know why they all were cheated on.
> 
> It was an exit affair.


Wow...that was way out of line to hit BS like that. Can we all get back to the topic at hand - the list. Thanks.


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## jim123

Truthseeker1 said:


> Wow...that was way out of line to hit BS like that. Can we all get back to the topic at hand - the list. Thanks.


First, you brought this here. Second, I am (was) a BS. Third, Chump Lady played all nice here but is doing an all out attack on EI and other posters on her blog. Fourth, the list is bull.


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## Truthseeker1

jim123 said:


> First, you brought this here. Second, I am (was) a BS. Third, Chump Lady played all nice here but is doing an all out attack on EI and other posters on her blog. Fourth, the list is bull.


Hey Jim, I brought the list here - so don't blame me for the direction the chat went in. OK? And people may not like the list or the tone of her article but they didn't have to attack eachother personally - they should have debated the list.


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## xakulax

Truthseeker1 I think is safe to say you're not gonna get much of an intellectual debate here at this point we've already descend into the Mouth of Madness which is unfortunate indeed.


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## GusPolinski

Rampant generalizations are stupid. Including <that one.


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## jim123

Truthseeker1 said:


> Hey Jim, I brought the list here - so don't blame me for the direction the chat went in. OK? And people may not like the list or the tone of her article but they didn't have to attack eachother personally - they should have debated the list.


The list can not be debated because it has no validity. The list does nothing but incite. That is why Chump Lady used it. If you look at her blog it is full of anger and hate. 

EI was trying to stop the hate from her site to come here. There is now an all out attack on EI and others from this site.


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## ire8179

jim123 said:


> Well I read the blog and all the comments from the Chumps.
> 
> I have good news, I know why they all were cheated on.
> 
> It was an exit affair.


Ouch, that's a lowblow........to yourself 
You comment is insensitive and not too mention ignorant
Do you know all of these people and their history? no? 
I read all of the comments and some of them just shared their experience without bashing anyone, is that wrong ? To say that it was ALL an exit affair just make you appear closed minded

For a healthy debate attack their statement and deliver your point, that's fine. But when you attack other's personal lives without informed opinion, it'd be hard to describe you as anything but ignorant


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## Truthseeker1

jim123 said:


> The list can not be debated because it has no validity. The list does nothing but incite. That is why Chump Lady used it. If you look at her blog it is full of anger and hate.
> 
> EI was trying to stop the hate from her site to come here. There is now an all out attack on EI and others from this site.


Lots of readers like Chump lady and find her articles useful. But you are entitled to your opinion. And the list can be debated - by saying it has no validity is in fact debating the list.

I'm not going down this road any further.


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## jim123

ire8179 said:


> Ouch, that's a lowblow........to yourself
> You comment is insensitive and not too mention ignorant
> Do you know all of these people and their history? no?
> I read all of the comments and some of them just shared their experience without bashing anyone, is that wrong ? To say that it was ALL an exit affair just make you appear closed minded
> 
> For a healthy debate attack their statement and deliver your point, that's fine. But when you attack other's personal lives without informed opinion, it'd be hard to describe you as anything but ignorant



Did you read Chump Lady's blog and comments? That is what I am referring to.


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## xakulax

ire8179 said:


> Ouch, that's a lowblow........to yourself
> You comment is insensitive and not too mention ignorant
> Do you know all of these people and their history? no?
> I read all of the comments and some of them just shared their experience without bashing anyone, is that wrong ? To say that it was ALL an exit affair just make you appear closed minded
> 
> For a healthy debate attack their statement and deliver your point, that's fine. But when you attack other's personal lives without informed opinion, it'd be hard to describe you as anything but ignorant



:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## EI

jim123 said:


> Read Chump Lady's blog and all the comments and you will see what a lack of empathy is.


_AMEN........._

They aren't interested in empathy on that blog. They want WS's blood. This takes me back to the purpose of my very first comment on this thread. When I originally posted "What exactly is _good_ about her column?" To be honest, my assumption was that it must be about making money because I could see no other possible good that that could come from it. It's absolutely venomous. It's also quite apparent that many TAM regulars are readers of her blog. The Chump posted my original comment on this thread on her blog, on Thursday, May 22nd, and then, along with her readers, proceeded to dissect everything about me, including several of my posts on TAM, my avatar picture, and my personality disorder(s) (which will come as interesting news to the therapist I saw for 3-4 years.) 

Apparently TAM is now my drug of choice and I use my avatar picture to flirt with men. I am also dangerous..... Then they chuckle, chuckle. Phrases that I have used in many of my posts are being ridiculed. It apparently offends "them" when I say that I wish to "help people in their own journeys towards healing." And, phrases like "****tard" and "mind****ery" get tossed around there like confetti. 

BTW, if you have posted on this thread, or anywhere else on TAM, in my defense, you have a target on your back. Chump is lifting our posts and reprinting them on her site so that those who do not "agree" with their assessment can be ridiculed, as well. One of Chump's readers offered a new little derogatory catch phrase for WS's. It's called "***** Cookie." It means expecting praise or a reward for doing something that you should/shouldn't do anyway. Chump "liked" that and said that "***** Cookie" needs a cartoon.

I thought I would share this little nugget directly from the Chump's keyboard:

Oh, and for anyone who is curious — I don’t make money on this blog. You guys are terrifically kind about donating and Amazon sends me about $20 a month for ads, cafe press the occasional $5 for mugs sold — but over all for what I’ve spent to create it, versus any income its generated in two years — it’s a negative cash flow (not adding in my time either). *Now, when my book is for sale next month? I will shamelessly promote it, now that I’ve built this community.*

The truth is, I did assume that her venomous blog was about making money. I kind of thought that she was intentionally over the top with the extreme negativity simply to increase her readership. But, when she explained that she actually has a negative cash flow, I was even more disheartened to realize that she must do this for pleasure. I, also, assumed that her "character," Chump Lady, was just that, a part she was playing up. I did not actually believe that she could truly be that negative. I was wrong. She doesn't appear to just want to exercise her right to share her opinion. She seems to enjoy playing her role. And, if you don't agree with her......Well, she doesn't appear to be too concerned about the effects her cruel words might have on others.


----------



## GusPolinski

EI said:


> Apparently TAM is now my drug of choice and *I use my avatar picture to flirt with men.*


Your avatar gives me the impression that you are -- or at least _may be_ -- an engaged mother. As a male of the species, this both excites and intimidates me. 

Either way, I am outraged! Please, someone, pass the virtual soapbox my way...

Anyway, </sarcasm>... 

I've not read much of CL's stuff, but at least some of what I've read would seem to make _some_ sense. Still, it could do w/ a bit less vitriol and a lot less of the ad hominem BS. Same goes for much of the breakdown that's currently going on in this thread, IMO.

Come on, everyone, we're better than this.


----------



## jim123

EI said:


> _AMEN........._
> 
> They aren't interested in empathy on that blog. They want WS's blood. This takes me back to the purpose of my very first comment on this thread. When I originally posted "What exactly is _good_ about her column?" To be honest, my assumption was that it must be about making money because I could see no other possible good that that could come from it. It's absolutely venomous. It's also quite apparent that many TAM regulars are readers of her blog. The Chump posted my original comment on this thread on her blog, on Thursday, May 22nd, and then, along with her readers, proceeded to dissect everything about me, including several of my posts on TAM, my avatar picture and my personality disorder(s) (which will come as interesting news to the therapist I saw for 3-4 years.)
> 
> Apparently TAM is now my drug of choice and I use my avatar picture to flirt with men. I am also dangerous..... Then they chuckle, chuckle. Phrases that I have used in many of my posts are being ridiculed. It apparently offends "them" when I say that I wish to "help people in their own journeys towards healing." And, phrases like "****tard" and "mind****ery" get tossed around there like confetti.
> 
> BTW, if you have posted on this thread, or anywhere else on TAM, in my defense, you have a target on your back. Chump is lifting our posts and reprinting them on her site so that those who do not "agree" with their assessment can be ridiculed, as well. One of Chump's readers offered a new little derogatory catch phrase for WS's. It's called "***** Cookie." It means expecting praise or a reward for doing something that you should/shouldn't do anyway. Chump "liked" that and said that "***** Cookie" needs a cartoon.
> 
> I thought I would share this little nugget directly from the Chump's keyboard:
> 
> Oh, and for anyone who is curious — I don’t make money on this blog. You guys are terrifically kind about donating and Amazon sends me about $20 a month for ads, cafe press the occasional $5 for mugs sold — but over all for what I’ve spent to create it, versus any income its generated in two years — it’s a negative cash flow (not adding in my time either). *Now, when my book is for sale next month? I will shamelessly promote it, now that I’ve built this community.*
> 
> The truth is, I did assume that her venomous blog was about making money. I kind of thought that she was intentionally over the top with the extreme negativity simply to increase her readership. But, when she explained that she actually has a negative cash flow, I was even more disheartened to realize that she must do this for pleasure. I, also, assumed that her "character," Chump Lady, was just that, a part she was playing up. I did not actually believe that she could truly be that negative. I was wrong. She doesn't appear to just want to exercise her right to share her opinion. She seems to enjoy playing her role. And, if you don't agree with her......Well, she doesn't appear to be too concerned about the effects her cruel words might have on others.


What has me all wound up is she posted her how you have a right to you opinion and you owed no apology then went to the protection of her blog and said what she said.

On TAM we have all types of opinions that make this a place to learn. Chump lady's blog is a cult.

I am a BS and never thought I would say anything like I have tonight.


----------



## EI

ire8179 said:


> But when you attack other's personal lives without informed opinion, it'd be hard to describe you as anything but ignorant


Unless, of course, you are the Chump Lady, or one of her faithful followers, talking about WS's. Then, all bets are off, right? They can diagnose personality disorders, read minds, critique avatar pictures, etc. And, that's perfectly acceptable??? 

You know what, you're right? My personal life was seriously attacked by Chump Lady and her readers. Many of them only knew what they knew about me from Chumps's reprinting of one of my posts (out of nearly 2000.) The biggest problem with ignorant people is that they don't know they're ignorant. It's the rest of us who suffer for it.


----------



## jim123

GusPolinski said:


> Your avatar gives me the impression that you are -- or at least _may be_ -- an engaged mother. As a male of the species, this both excites and intimidates me.
> 
> Either way, I am outraged! Please, someone, pass the virtual soapbox my way...
> 
> Anyway, </sarcasm>...
> 
> I've not read much of CL's stuff, but at least some of what I've read would seem to make _some_ sense. Still, it could do w/ a bit less vitriol and a lot less of the ad hominem BS. Same goes for much of the breakdown that's currently going on in this thread, IMO.
> 
> Come on, everyone, we're better than this.


We are better than this but to keep it that way we can not allow what is currently going on. People's comments from this board are being lifted to another site.

If something like that is allowed, you would be stupid to put your story on this site. What is going on is wrong at many levels.


----------



## ire8179

jim123 said:


> Did you read Chump Lady's blog and comments? That is what I am referring to.


I did, i disagree with some of the comments there but generalizing and pit them into one category is not right either. I still stand by my initial opinion


----------



## EI

GusPolinski said:


> Your avatar gives me the impression that you are -- or at least _may be_ -- an engaged mother. As a male of the species, this both excites and intimidates me.
> 
> Either way, I am outraged! Please, someone, pass the virtual soapbox my way...
> 
> Anyway, </sarcasm>...
> 
> I've not read much of CL's stuff, but at least some of what I've read would seem to make _some_ sense. Still, it could do w/ a bit less vitriol and a lot less of the ad hominem BS. Same goes for much of the breakdown that's currently going on in this thread, IMO.
> 
> Come on, everyone, we're better than this.


Changed it for ya, Gus! 

I'm fairly certain THIS is the avatar, in question, that a certain male reader of Chump's blog, and apparently TAM, was referring to when he said that I was coquettish, with my head turned to the side, and my sly smile! 

Now, hold yourself together, Gus. Don't let me "get to you!"


----------



## jim123

ire8179 said:


> I did, i disagree with some of the comments there but generalizing and pit them into one category is not right either. I still stand by my initial opinion


That is the good things about TAM. We can call each other out. I understand where you are coming from, you just do not understand what I am trying to do and why.


----------



## GusPolinski

EI said:


> "Now, when my book is for sale next month? I will shamelessly promote it, now that I’ve built this community."
> 
> *The truth is, I did assume that her venomous blog was about making money.*I kind of thought that she was intentionally over the top with the extreme negativity simply to increase her readership. But, when she explained that she actually has a negative cash flow, I was even more disheartened to realize that she must do this for pleasure. I, also, assumed that her "character," Chump Lady, was just that, a part she was playing up. I did not actually believe that she could truly be that negative. I was wrong. She doesn't appear to just want to exercise her right to share her opinion. She seems to enjoy playing her role. And, if you don't agree with her......Well, she doesn't appear to be too concerned about the effects her cruel words might have on others.


If she has a book in the works, the blog is almost certainly about making money, regardless of whatever "negative cash flow" _currently_ exists. 

As for all of the bile and negativity being aimed at building readership for increasing book sales? Yeah, probably. But that doesn't necessarily take away from _some_ of what she says.

As for the rest, who cares? With regard to your marriage, you know "what's up", as does Mr. EI.

And everyone else...? Holy crap, STFU w/ the "once a cheater, always a cheater" bullspit. News flash -- _it doesn't always apply._ I know that generalizations are fun, easy (Because hey, why expend brain power?), and save us time, but it's very rare that everything will fit into these nice, shiny containers into which we like to dump things.

Have I used the "once a cheater, always a cheater" phrase -- along w/ others similar to it -- before? Yep. Like any of us, I project. I _try_ not to, but it happens. And even when I do let loose w/ that stuff, it's usually germane to the situation being discussed.

Remorseless, serial cheaters who engage in months or years of lying, gaslighting, trickle-truth, and blame-shifting? F*ck 'em. Have sympathy for them, but cut them out of your life forever (to the degree possible).

As for the rest... the ONS or "one and done" offenders...? The lines will blur for some BSs depending on the details of the transgressions (for example, Mrs. JA, EI, and Regret each have very different stories), but do they deserve a second chance? That's between the BS and the WS. (Actually, the same is true for serial WSs.) But yeah, for the most part, I'd like to think -- or hope -- so. Either way, we all have our own paths, and that should be respected. As weightlifter often states, "It's your road, not mine."

I guess that all I'm trying to say is that _not every situation involving infidelity is the same._ There are degrees of betrayal and hurt. Buy more of those nice, shiny containers, because not everything is going to fit into the two or three that you currently have on hand. This is why so many of us press newly-wounded BSs for more details when they come here, hat in hand, sharing their shame and hurt w/ us. WE NEED TO KNOW MORE IN ORDER TO HELP THEM.


----------



## EI

GusPolinski said:


> *Your avatar gives me the impression that you are -- or at least may be -- an engaged mother. As a male of the species, this both excites and intimidates me. *
> 
> Either way, I am outraged! Please, someone, pass the virtual soapbox my way...
> 
> Anyway, </sarcasm>...


Thank you! I am actually that precious little boys MiMi. (Which means grandmother!) shhhhh!!! 



GusPolinski said:


> Come on, everyone, we're better .


That has been my hope all along. I have tried to use TAM as a resource to learn, grow, and heal. In doing so, I feel I have become more capable of helping my family recover from my betrayal, as well. When TAM members have posted questions specific to WS's, or sent pm's to me, I have tried to help to them to the best of my ability. I was viciously ridiculed for THAT on the Chumps blog. I truly want to be a part of the solution, not a part the problem. But, because I was the WS, that doesn't "fit" their script, so I must be NPD, dangerous, selfish, still cheating, in denial, etc......


----------



## GusPolinski

EI said:


> Changed it for ya, Gus!
> 
> I'm fairly certain THIS is the avatar, in question, that a certain male reader of Chump's blog, and apparently TAM, was referring to when he said that I was coquettish, with my head turned to the side, and my sly smile!
> 
> Now, hold yourself together, Gus. Don't let me "get to you!"


Well now I just think that you brush and floss regularly.


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## TimeHeals

EI said:


> Unless, of course, you are the Chump Lady, or one of her faithful followers, talking about WS's. Then, all bets are off, right? They can diagnose personality disorders, read minds, critique avatar pictures, etc. .


I can only speak for myself, but what you did was make up lies (easily researched to find out your were lying) about somebody in an effort to smear them.

Does that make me a "follower"? 

I can tell you I have no interest whatsoever in diagnosing whatever disorder or character defect might motivate that kind of behavior.

I can also tell you that a couple of folks jumped in here with responses ( to pointing out that libelous smears are uncool ) with a string of non-sequitur posts containing enough fallacies to provide enough material for an entire semester of an intro logic class (With friends like that, who needs mental cases right?). Does that make them your "followers"?

And I have yet to see you demonstrate any humility or acknowledge the wrongness of what you have done instead of trying to minimize or weasel your way out of just admitting it was wrong or doubling down with vitriol and playing the victim. Is that something you do all the time? I don't know. It wouldn't surprise me. You could be a highly manipulative person. You certainly have demonstrated text book manipulative behavior here. I have no idea if this behavior extends beyond trolling the internet.

Is it important, though, to label you according to some DSM V criteria? Nope. Is it helpful even? It might be to a therapist who was trying to help you if you were a disordered individual seeking help, but I have no interest in that either.

My whole point and my only interest in this discussion is pointing out that bad behavior is bad behavior, and you have been displaying terrifically bad behavior.

If you have a problem with that, well that's your problem. It's not like you didn't have a choice. Nobody held a gun to your head and said, "make up lies and libel somebody". 

I'd suggest that if you don't like people pointing out that libel is not cool, you might think about not doing that sort of thing instead of libeling somebody and then doubling down and attacking while playing the victim and refusing to admit the behavior is bad or trying to downplay the bad behavior.

There are other options.

You get to choose how you behave. And so do I. And so does everybody else.


----------



## Headspin

This is probably the place and thread to say it so I will

I've watched many many so many too many ww spouses come on here and give it the full "anyone but me" ! 

Truth is there have been hundreds of them 

Personally for me I have also had my views about some cheats knocked and maybe reassessed that view.

Now that's all well and good as you can't shoot everyone for a crime that has so many variables.

I have like many others, learned that although infidelity is what it is it is a broad 'branch' and I, for one, can see and have learned to see that some, very few deserve to be heard deserve maybe the chance the gift of reconciliation

It is difficult for the wayward trying to atone and it is easy for some of us to actually want them to be able to do that but

Here's the but - it's also very easy as Chump Lady points out that for you waywards to forget that ultimately you DID cheat you DID do that. I know we all know you want to put that in the past that that was a 'different ' person and you'd like to forget it but ultimately you DID rip other peoples lives up without a second thought. 

In the aftermath a few of you realized just what an appalling thing it was or you tried to understand and atone but you also have top realize it IS a brush you are tarnished with forever and imo it's no good, when the reality strikes about it, screaming for the rooftops about it all and how unfair it is 

I know on this board the ones who have really tried to understand and get to a better place about it all but sometimes maybe in your desperation to forget your terrible deeds you really do forget the gravity of it all 

I think these days on this board waywards are given a lot more patience and understanding but ultimately cheating is cheating it IS what it says on the tin and I think many of you forget that


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## 827Aug

This thread is being put to rest. Sorry folks!


----------

