# Why is it so hard to hear what your spouse is saying?



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

People talk to me - maybe more than they should, so I get an interesting view of relationships sometimes. It seems so common that someone will try again and again to to explain to their partner about a problem with the marriage, and the partner will seem unable to hear / accept / believe in the issue. 

I see it in my own situation where my wive has never understood /accepted that the lack of sex is a serious issue.

I know one woman who to her husbands great surprise is getting divorced after 30 years. I say surprise, but I know she told him again and again about the issues: his not working, his being utterly selfish in bed, his not doing anything around the house. 

Another woman's husband simply stopped all attempts are romance or sex after they had a child (15 years ago!). I suspect she is having affairs, to get her needs met outside of the marriage. I know she talked to him, and he just laughed off here complaints - acting as if a grown woman wanting sex and romance was somehow funny.

Another man I know just divorced his wife to marry a woman I think we as having an affair with at work. Again a marriage gone completely passionless. Kids, work, chores. I see him now and he is so happy. I suspect his wife was "blindsided" as well.


What makes it so difficult to hear what a partner is saying and why do people wait until things have completely fallen apart before trying to fix things.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

If anyone could solve that question they would make a lot of money. There are a lot of unhappily married individuals on this earth. Lawyers have made careers out of the situation. There is a saying 
Familiarity breeds contempt 

The government should really build support systems for marriages. It would be a lot cheaper that to support the children from broken homes. In UK fully supporting a child from such a home costs over 85 000 Pounds per year. It is a lot of money. Might be better to have supported the parents to raise their own children. Parenting classes should be compulsory for all people who want to be parents or find themselves married or pregnant. Then have refresher courses every so often. 

When I volunteered at the Relationship agency, I found a lot of upsetting situations that maried people allow themselves to be into. Most of these can be resolved but people dig in and refuse to reolve them. Sex is often the tool for disputes. Once that starts there marriage is on its way down. Can as well divorce now before other issues develop.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I’m guessing because they are ok with the status quo. Though they may hear that their spouse says they are unhappy, they are not unhappy so they don’t really understand what that means.

However, to give an example. My first husband, I told him in many ways that I was unhappy. But in retrospect, I can see how I never made myself completely clear because I honestly didn’t know I would divorce over these differences until it was too late.

I would talk. He would listen enough and “try” enough to show me he cares. But then he would revert to his real self very quickly.

I now realize that what I was asking him to listen to was “please change yourself because as you are, I don’t quite love you”.

After all these years and hindsight, I realize now that being a mismatch, no amount of talking or listening could have changed our relationship. We could have sucked it up and soldiered on. And if I had stopped complaining, he would have been a perfectly happily married man. If I could have found happiness with the good things and stopped wanting the other things, we could have been happy.

So I see it as kind of like...why didn’t I listen to him either? He was basically saying “I like our life and I love you the way you are, even though I wish you had no complaints. Please just be happy with me the way I am, as I am happy enough with you.”

He wanted to live a simple life that included at least the amount of love and sex we had. I wanted much more than that.

One of us would have had to change for us to both be happy. For a long time I felt he should have changed so that we could have stayed married (I felt I wasn’t asking anything he couldn’t do). But now I see it for what it was: no matter which of us changed, we would not have been happier. It would have been too uncomfortable for either of us to change to suit the other.

We were married for 14 years and together for 17.

I now understand that I should have never asked him to change. I should have asked myself to change and when I couldn’t, I should have admitted I could not live like this.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

Faithful Wife said:


> I’m guessing because they are ok with the status quo. Though they may hear that their spouse says they are unhappy, they are not unhappy so they don’t really understand what that means.
> 
> However, to give an example. My first husband, I told him in many ways that I was unhappy. But in retrospect, I can see how I never made myself completely clear because I honestly didn’t know I would divorce over these differences until it was too late.
> 
> ...


Very very true.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

uhtred said:


> People talk to me - maybe more than they should, so I get an interesting view of relationships sometimes. It seems so common that someone will try again and again to to explain to their partner about a problem with the marriage, and the partner will seem unable to hear / accept / believe in the issue.


If someone is genuinely happy and comfortable with the status quo, and there partner is always telling them that there's a significant problem. They have no reason to actually believe it's that big a deal to them, if they accept their misery and press on with them.



uhtred said:


> I see it in my own situation where my wive has never understood /accepted that the lack of sex is a serious issue.


Which is perfectly rational. If it were a really serious issue, you would be getting sex elsewhere and or have ended your marital relationship with her. Or told her you will end it if things don't change and then followed through. The fact you have not done any of those things, over decades is telling.

Sure I appreciate your perspective that to tell her would be manipulative, yet this comes down to intent.

If your intent is to manipulate her, it is exactly that.

If your intent is to tell her honestly how you feel and that given that information she ignores you. Then you do walk after she has called your bluff, there wasn't manipulation.

All sorts of people express their dissatisfaction over all sorts of things. Yet many of them don't do anything about it, except whinge interminably to no end.

In so far as you control what you will put up with and what you won't, you are the master of your own destiny.

Wanting your wife to change, when your actions scream to her and others. That you are dandy with the sexual crumbs you get, is an abrogation of your own responsibility.

What do you think moral cowardice is?

Also considering the fact that you have often said here, that you would not have married your wife given your situation. Which is telling, as to how much you really love your wife.

You are kidding yourself, if you think you hold the moral high ground, by not demonstrating through actual actions what you claim to feel (behind the pretence of not wanting to manipulate her). Yet here you are not wanting to be married to her, yet your being with her tells a far greater lie every single day.

If you really loved her, perhaps you would afford her the dignity of knowing the truth.



uhtred said:


> I know one woman who to her husbands great surprise is getting divorced after 30 years. I say surprise, but I know she told him again and again about the issues: his not working, his being utterly selfish in bed, his not doing anything around the house.


Well that could be your wife. The thing is the reason why her husband was blindsided is because, her actions were for a long time incongruent with her words.

If someone says to you they aren't happy unless xyz, or they will end their relationship with you. It would be wise to believe them.

By the same token if someone says to you they aren't happy unless xyz, or they will end their relationship with you. Yet they stay with you after you do nothing to fix it. It would be wise not to believe them, whenever they complain about xyz.



uhtred said:


> Another woman's husband simply stopped all attempts are romance or sex after they had a child (15 years ago!). I suspect she is having affairs, to get her needs met outside of the marriage. I know she talked to him, and he just laughed off here complaints - acting as if a grown woman wanting sex and romance was somehow funny.


If that gets her what she wants when he isn't interested, good for her.



uhtred said:


> Another man I know just divorced his wife to marry a woman I think we as having an affair with at work. Again a marriage gone completely passionless. Kids, work, chores. I see him now and he is so happy. I suspect his wife was "blindsided" as well.


There you have it, actions change things.



uhtred said:


> What makes it so difficult to hear what a partner is saying and why do people wait until things have completely fallen apart before trying to fix things.


Hearing isn't the problem at all. Expecting someone to become something they're not, while lacking the moral courage to be honest and stand by ones own wants and desires is the problem.

Your wife is not responsible for the predicament you find yourself in. You are the only person who is entirely responsible for it. Until you (not her) choose otherwise, crumbs or less is all you will get, because it is all you choose.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

uhtred, cut to the chase. If your wife wants to play virgin with you, file on her. She might get the picture then. If she can't understand after that, there's no hope for her. Anyhow, you can't go through life sexually frustrated, not unless you are some kind of beta.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Uhtred,

Make a list of the reasons why you love her. Make a list of the reasons why you don't. Check it over a few times. Take your time. Make a decision to work on some things in a manner that will satisfy you. Be kind to her, if you decide the marriage isn't for you. She will be shocked.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Sometimes a spouse wants the moon on a stick.

And no matter what else they are given, they are never truly satisfied because they keep looking up at the moon and longing for it to be theirs. On a stick, damnit!

It is as if they never properly grew up and matured into an adult man or woman.


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## Robbie1234 (Feb 8, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> Sometimes a spouse wants the moon on a stick.
> 
> And no matter what else they are given, they are never truly satisfied because they keep looking up at the moon and longing for it to be theirs. On a stick, damnit!
> 
> It is as if they never properly grew up and matured into an adult man or woman.


You just summed up my ex wife. She would have been a great partner except she was besotted with her boss and when he called her she always came running. 
She could see no wrong in him and a couple of years after I caught her cheating the first time she was stupid enough to arrange a double date with him and his then girlfriend. When I walked out of the restaurant she was baffled as to why I hadn't gotten over her cheating with him. She honestly thought I had forgotten about it.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I’m guessing because they are ok with the status quo.


There's another reason. *****...*****...*****....the only thing I ever hear is b...b...b.... while other men are spoken about with praise and respect....
My survival skill has become "tune out"....

Here's my serious rhetorical question:

Why, in God's name, should I waste my time, my energy, and my will power ????? I am going to get absolutely no reward for it..... I'll only get b....b.....b....

She is not in love with me.....she is in love with the guy she is going to change me into.....and, the sheer enormity of my faults is astounding...


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

It's evolutionary biology under the circumstance of a woman who has high priority of safety/security and low priority sexual needs. (I'm not implying something is wrong with her)
A woman in her situation can carry on with no problem at all .... her high priority needs are met.
As said above, you have already proved to her that you aren't going anywhere .... her high priority needs are met.

Why is it so hard to hear what your spouse is saying? 
She already knows what YOUR saying.....your saying your not going anywhere. Again .... her high priority needs are met.

Everyone on this forum is always in agreement how important it is have to have your needs met in a relationship. She already has what she needs.

_________________________________________________________________________

That being said you are in a tough spot. The unfortunate truth is you will remain there. No person on this forum or any other will ever give you that magic pill your
looking for. 

Try to find another outlet. This forum I'm sure is one of them. Look for some other things in life that can bring you satisfaction and happiness.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

TJW said:


> There's another reason. *****...*****...*****....the only thing I ever hear is b...b...b.... while other men are spoken about with praise and respect....
> My survival skill has become "tune out"....
> 
> Here's my serious rhetorical question:
> ...


Reminds me of this rather amusing old Bud commercial:


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

They hear you. They simply don’t believe you will ever leave.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*A lot of it has to do with either abject denial or willful ignorance of their issues!

Greatly thinking that those issues will just evaporate over time, or cease to exist!*


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## Robbie1234 (Feb 8, 2017)

Spicy said:


> They hear you. They simply don’t believe you will ever leave.


The thing is a lot of time they are right.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

TJW said:


> There's another reason. *****...*****...*****....the only thing I ever hear is b...b...b.... while other men are spoken about with praise and respect....
> My survival skill has become "tune out"....
> 
> Here's my serious rhetorical question:
> ...


Wow, so I guess this is the answer to OP's question. Has it occurred to you that she is "*****ing" for a valid reason? That something between you, or, that you are doing or not doing is hurting her? Do you not care if she is hurt? If not then why be with her? 

And what makes you think she wants to change who you are? Maybe there are just certain behaviors that she has issue with. Why jump to that conclusion? Wanting someone to meet your needs or to even WANT to meet your needs doesn't mean you reject who they are. Are you seriously looking for some reward for meeting her needs? I don't think that's how this works...

Giving benefit of the doubt... is she generally just a B? Is she an entitled princess who no matter what you do for her always has a complaint? Does she not meet YOUR needs? 

I think that our partners don't hear what we are trying to say because they just don't give a damn, and are not invested or in love enough to be bothered to make an effort. They sit and listen and let it pass right through their ears because its easier to keep doing what they are doing, since it works for them. Then they panic when you are out the door because dammit now their life is going to have to change.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

3Xnocharm said:


> Wow, so I guess this is the answer to OP's question. Has it occurred to you that she is "*****ing" for a valid reason? That something between you, or, that you are doing or not doing is hurting her? Do you not care if she is hurt? If not then why be with her?
> 
> And what makes you think she wants to change who you are? Maybe there are just certain behaviors that she has issue with. Why jump to that conclusion? Wanting someone to meet your needs or to even WANT to meet your needs doesn't mean you reject who they are. Are you seriously looking for some reward for meeting her needs? I don't think that's how this works...
> 
> ...


You know, I almost always agree with what you write. 

But in this case @TWJ 's wife has already emasculated him multiple times, she openly tells/told him he sucks in bed, and she berates him as well. They barely have sex if all

I think he just likes feeling like ****, because he is too scared to leave. For the life of me, I don't know why, but he is not the only one here like that. 

TWJ, if I am wrong, help me out.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> You know, I almost always agree with what you write.
> 
> But in this case @TWJ 's wife has already emasculated him multiple times, she openly tells/told him he sucks in bed, and she berates him as well. They barely have sex if all
> 
> ...


I should go read through his threads....


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Sometimes I wonder. My wife often comments that she wishes I would dress better. To me it seems like a minor thing - but what if its really critical to her and I'm just sort of ignoring her repeated requests the way that she thinks the lack of sex is trivial. 

OTOH, I could play that game forever thinking that every thing she wants has to be treated as critically important.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

At our age, it might really be just hearing that is the problem. 

If I turn the question around and ask why is it that I don't hear what she is saying to me. I would say that it is because I'm not paying attention. I'm not putting together the hints from three conversations to find out what she is thinking. I used to do this, perhaps I think I know it all already. The more likely truth is that I just don't care. Why should I care? It won't change anything. Nothing ever changes. And beside since I don't care and am therefore not listening, I can easily project the reason she isn't listening.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Sometimes I wonder. My wife often comments that she wishes I would dress better. To me it seems like a minor thing - but what if its really critical to her and I'm just sort of ignoring her repeated requests the way that she thinks the lack of sex is trivial.
> 
> OTOH, I could play that game forever thinking that every thing she wants has to be treated as critically important.


She wants you to dress better than you do, or to dress the way SHE wants you to? This is a sticky subject for me, because an ex of mine used to nag on me all the time because he thought I should dress a certain way. I am very much a NON girly girl, and this was a bone of contention for me. This makes me feel like someone trying to change you. NOW, having said that... if you wear dirty or old, shabby clothes, then yeah, she would have a valid point, more of a how you present yourself issue, rather than just a style issue.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Sometimes I wonder. My wife often comments that she wishes I would dress better. To me it seems like a minor thing - but what if its really critical to her and I'm just sort of ignoring her repeated requests the way that she thinks the lack of sex is trivial.
> 
> OTOH, I could play that game forever thinking that every thing she wants has to be treated as critically important.


Why would you be inclined to dress better? She isn't gonna put out either way? In fact, I'm not sure why you would be overly concerned with anything she asks or requests.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its not all about sex. Sex matters, but it isn't the only thing that matters. 



UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Why would you be inclined to dress better? She isn't gonna put out either way? In fact, I'm not sure why you would be overly concerned with anything she asks or requests.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Not a clear situation. My clothes are clean, but not always tidy, and I freely admit that I don't have a good sense of style. I tend to like neutral, non-saturated colors, she likes bright colors. So is wearing a red shirt (assuming I'm no on Star Trek) reasonable? Probably. 

My job is somewhat strange and there aren't well defined dress standards. I'd say I dress a slightly below average for work and meeting friends, but not off the curve. 






3Xnocharm said:


> She wants you to dress better than you do, or to dress the way SHE wants you to? This is a sticky subject for me, because an ex of mine used to nag on me all the time because he thought I should dress a certain way. I am very much a NON girly girl, and this was a bone of contention for me. This makes me feel like someone trying to change you. NOW, having said that... if you wear dirty or old, shabby clothes, then yeah, she would have a valid point, more of a how you present yourself issue, rather than just a style issue.


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## Dusk (Oct 29, 2018)

Faithful Wife said:


> I’m guessing because they are ok with the status quo. Though they may hear that their spouse says they are unhappy, they are not unhappy so they don’t really understand what that means.
> 
> However, to give an example. My first husband, I told him in many ways that I was unhappy. But in retrospect, I can see how I never made myself completely clear because I honestly didn’t know I would divorce over these differences until it was too late.
> 
> ...


This is a completely brilliant reply. 

If what you are asking a spouse amounts to "Be different. Be someone better" it's never going to work. Sure, you can fiddle around the edges a bit, maybe fix an argument style here or a dishwashing technique there. But asking someone to basically be more sexual, be more attracted to me, be more demonstrative than they naturally are is only ever going to make short term differences. 

My husband and I have been together more than 20 years and are generally very happy. But there are deep dissatisfactions within our relationship that have to do with the fact we are different people. He's not a verbal appreciator, I am messy and generally a bit disorganised. That's who we've always been and although we can both make attempts to be better, it's going to take a lot of effort and probably not stick.

So we accept each other and keep doing our best. He doesn't get everything he wants and neither do I. But we get a lot. 

I wasted a lot of years trying to work out how to get my husband to 'meet my need for words of affirmation'. Relationship boards are full of love languages and meeting needs in what seems like a transactional way as though that's the key to happiness. But it never worked. It's just not natural for him and I don't want him saying things to me he may not mean or may make him feel uncomfortable. So I learned to stop relying on him for that kind of validation, stop needing it and give it to my own self. Much healthier than if I'd managed to turn him in to the kind of man who would tell me I'm beautiful three times a day.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Sometimes I wonder. My wife often comments that she wishes I would dress better. To me it seems like a minor thing - but what if its really critical to her and I'm just sort of ignoring her repeated requests the way that she thinks the lack of sex is trivial.
> 
> OTOH, I could play that game forever thinking that every thing she wants has to be treated as critically important.


I used to ask similar things of my first husband. And I definitely could have been more attracted to him if he had listened.

But he would not have been comfortable or happy. Even if I was more attracted to him and maybe we had more sex as a result, him wearing different clothes would not have made us both net happier. Him less happy for my more happy wasn’t a good trade.

If it was more minor, like I simply asked him to throw out a certain pair of worn out pants or never wear them again, sure we could have found a compromise there.

But if he were to change about 80% of his wardrobe like I would have wanted...nope. He couldn’t do that and still be happy.

So in your case, no I don’t think you should change your wardrobe. It won’t make anything but a superficial, non sexual difference.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

The thing I have seen is that the communication isn’t always clear. If someone is GENUINELY surprised when they are handed divorce papers then obviously they didn’t have the information. One of the biggest mistakes humans make in communication is they say something and ASSUMED the information is perfectly clear, but did the person comprehend?. 

I think we sugarcoat conversations and beat around the bush. Statements of “I feel bad when” or “I don’t like it when you do xyz” is not the same context as “if xyz doesn’t stop I am leaving”. We say the first but mean the second. The other person just hears the first and doesn’t always get this is serious. To them it’s just another thing. 

I also think people tend to treat those closest to them badly because they think or assume they will always stay.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Sometimes I wonder. My wife often comments that she wishes I would dress better. To me it seems like a minor thing - but what if its really critical to her and I'm just sort of ignoring her repeated requests the way that she thinks the lack of sex is trivial.
> 
> OTOH, I could play that game forever thinking that every thing she wants has to be treated as critically important.



I wouldn't ignore a really painless request such as "dressing better" - that's really cool that she's open enough to tell you that. To tell you the truth, how a man dresses can be one of those turn-ons for a woman.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

I really hate it when I muster up the courage to have a critical conversation about something that's important to me and it's completely ignored, nothing happens - minor dang stuff...like, how 'bout playing some music and a little sexy talk and a foot massage before wild sex? Not even talking about something weird, difficult or expensive.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> I really hate it when I muster up the courage to have a critical conversation about something that's important to me and it's completely ignored, nothing happens - minor dang stuff...like, how 'bout playing some music and a little sexy talk and a foot massage before wild sex? Not even talking about something weird, difficult or expensive.


Ughhhh....foot message...why all the jumping through hoops for sex? Thats not even foreplay, thats like a sex tax.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Don't discount the possibility that they do hear and just don't care, or that they have heard but the answer is no. 

In the instances you listed this seems to be the case. 

In a more general sense effective communication takes strength and deference which is hard for most people. It's even harder when you have been hurt by the person talking, and much harder when you have been hurt worse because you made yourself vulnerable while you were trying to communicate. 

Also I found good communication really requires you relay back the idea you thought you heard because that often is not exactly the idea that was attempted to be communicated. 

Another thing to look forward to when the mind reading equipment is ready. Give it 20 years.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Ughhhh....foot message...why all the jumping through hoops for sex? Thats not even foreplay, thats like a sex tax.


It's foreplay in my house and the only tax I never mind paying :wink2:


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

sokillme said:


> It's even harder when you have been hurt by the person talking, and much harder when you have been hurt worse because you made yourself vulnerable while you were trying to communicate.



Solid Gold !


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Sometimes I wonder. My wife often comments that she wishes I would dress better. To me it seems like a minor thing - but what if its really critical to her and I'm just sort of ignoring her repeated requests the way that she thinks the lack of sex is trivial.


When her words are incongruent with her actions, you have no reason to believe her repeated requests are anything but trivial.

This really isn't rocket science, it should be abundantly clear to you why she ignores your repeated requests, while your actions prove a lack of sex doesn't matter much to you.

While ever you continue to prove that sex doesn't matter that much to you, through your acceptance of sexual crumbs and refusal to seek it elsewhere. It is abundantly clear to her, that you don't want sex that much either.

You really should be fine with all of this. Especially since you both seem so well matched in all areas including having a shared disinterest in wanting much sex.

Isn't it about time you stop spinning around in circles, and finally embrace who you really are?


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

I think humans are very, very good at going into a state of denial. Its easy to believe our own bull****. So when someone is trying to communicate (particularly communication with no action/consequences) about difficult things - and for some even talking about sex is considerably awkward - the mind becomes a clever confidence trickster. Its not really that important, they are overreacting, its their problem, but they do such and such and I never complain....now lets talk about that squeeky floorboard and dripping tap.

Unfortunately I think 'nice' people are going to be taken advantage of if they think they can solely talk their way through a problem. Effective communication needs a degree of confidence and assertiveness that stays on the right side of positive. For people who are poor receptors of verbal communication, they also need visual action. As somenone who is a light sleeper I am not going to share my bed with someone who doesn't want to have sex with me. I will put up with the snoring and disturbed sleep as long as their is something pleasant in it for me....otherwise I will look after me myself and I. I could put up with a MIL from hell if once in a while my spouse defended me and our children from the insults, if he can't do that....then I will go no contact and he will have to deal with the bull**** instead. (As H gets his annual abusive call from his mother I got a 'oh...I see what you had to put up with now'). Talking is not enough I'm afraid.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

This is how some spouses "communicate": "Gossip, Gossip, Gossip, Gossip, Gossip, Gossip, Gossip, Gossip, Gossip, Gossip, Gossip, Gossip, Gossip, Gossip, Gossip, very important information inserted here... Gossip, Gossip, Gossip, Gossip, Gossip, Gossip, Gossip, Gossip, Gossip."

My wife does this. But as she always says: "I never gossip." 

Later she will say: "But I told you about the very important information weeks ago!"

Why do I ignore my wife's gossiping? Because if you respond to your wife's complaints about her family, her friends, her colleagues, that's the wrong thing to do, because they do not want you to respond, they want you to be a sounding board, not to come up with a way to "fix" a problem she has been telling you about, sometimes for an hour or so.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uhtred said:


> Sometimes I wonder. My wife often comments that she wishes I would dress better. To me it seems like a minor thing - but what if its really critical to her and I'm just sort of ignoring her repeated requests the way that she thinks the lack of sex is trivial.
> 
> OTOH, I could play that game forever thinking that every thing she wants has to be treated as critically important.


I think you should pay heed to this request. Make it a fun outing(s) to update your wardrobe together. (it's been a few years, but my wife and I even had some fun in the dressing room if you know what I mean ;-) :-D ) 

Dress and style are very critical components of a woman's respect, admiration and attraction for a man. 

Ignoring this request is like ignoring the oil light in your car - there is going to be a breakdown. 

cont.....


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

cont.....

Now I am not saying that she is going to jump you in the dressing room or ravage you with wanton desire the moment you get home from the mall. 

But style and dress are important components to a woman's esteem of a man and is a piece of the puzzle. 

Will it be immediately flipping a switch in a chronically sex-starved marriage? - most likely not. 

But it is part of doing your due-diligence in trying to be as attractive and desirable for her as you can and in time it could possibly be a contributing factor in improving (not necessarily fixing) things.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Ughhhh....foot message...why all the jumping through hoops for sex? Thats not even foreplay, thats like a sex tax.


Did you just say that, really? 

Dude it is not a sex tax. It is something that most woman love, they love the attention. They love the effort. 

I don't know your situation, or where you are at in life. But I am guessing that you and @uhtred are not getting laid as much as you want to, could be wrong about you, I am right about @uhtred. 

Listen, if your woman does not want to have sex with you, she is not into you sexually, if she loves you in any way, it is like a roommate. 

It is time that you guys that are dealing with this accepted the truth. If you are OK living like a celibate monk, well OK, then quite trying to figure it out, because you will not accept the truth. 

Everyone has told you a hundred times what the deal is. 

You don't do dishes, cook, or rub feet to get sex. You HAVE sex with a woman that is at least sexually into you, if not in love with you. 
@uhtred, dude, if she wants you to dress better, and you give a ****, then have her take you shopping. 

Although in your case it may be a waste of time.

But to all you guys I ask the general question.... Unless you have two heads, or are horribly deformed or have a micro penis, you understand that there is a woman out there for you that will actually be attracted to you, love you, and wants to have sex with you?

I mean, you guys understand that, don't you????


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> Did you just say that, really?
> 
> Dude it is not a sex tax. It is something that most woman love, they love the attention. They love the effort.


I agree with what you are saying, but in all fairness, you haven't seen Upsidedown's wife's feet :-O

It may be worse than taxes LOL


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I agree with what you are saying, but in all fairness, you haven't seen Upsidedown's wife's feet :-O
> 
> It may be worse than taxes LOL


In that case he might get even more bonus points for the act.....even if he can only manage to stomach touching them with his old ladies spatula. :surprise::surprise::surprise:


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> Did you just say that, really?
> 
> *Dude it is not a sex tax. It is something that most woman love, they love the attention. They love the effort. *
> 
> ...


Indeed.

If you are only "having sex" while naked in the bedroom, you are missing out IMO. There's a whole lot of sex going on that doesn't require being naked or having your penis/vagina touched in our household.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> But to all you guys I ask the general question.... Unless you have two heads, or are horribly deformed or have a micro penis, you understand that there is a woman out there for you that will actually be attracted to you, love you, and wants to have sex with you?
> 
> I mean, you guys understand that, don't you????


No. I'm not horribly deformed, have no grotesque features, only one head, and an average penis. I understand the contrary. My GF summarized me 40 years ago, when she said "....you're just not the kind of man women go for..."

She was right. Talk about hearing ? I should have really listened, and believed this. If I had, I would have been comfortably retired 20 years ago and would have learned to enjoy life in celibacy, instead of wasting my time and my money and trying everything the books said.

Too bad "3Xnocharm" was an already taken name.....it would have fit me splendidly.



3Xnocharm said:


> Is she an entitled princess who no matter what you do for her always has a complaint?


I really don't know about "entitled", because she is a good wife, she has her own ideas about what "wife" should do, which match with some of my ideas.....but, always have a complaint ? Yes. Not only about me. Every person in her life has some kind of deficiency, every person who ever served her has failed in some way.

She tells me that I "shouldn't take it personally".... but I don't know how else to receive it, so I tune it out.

And, I'm not "too scared" to leave. If a guy looks out a 10th story window, and decides not to jump out, it isn't because he's "too scared".... it's because he can quite accurately predict the consequences which will result....

I don't want to be broke and living in a 3 room flat while paying her way to another guy. Who she will have within 6 weeks of when I move out.
I have a nice office, it's cool in the summer, warm in the winter, and no water drips on my face while I'm trying to sleep.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uhtred said:


> It seems so common that someone will try again and again to to explain to their partner about a problem with the marriage, and the partner will seem unable to hear / accept / believe in the issue.
> 
> I see it in my own situation where my wive has never understood /accepted that the lack of sex is a serious issue.
> 
> What makes it so difficult to hear what a partner is saying and why do people wait until things have completely fallen apart before trying to fix things.


It's because actions speak a million times louder than words. 

It's not that they don't hear it; it's that they are giving actions much more credence than words. 

Let me apply this to your situation - your wife has likely her you whine and complain and talk about wanting a more active sexlife a million times. 

But she is going by your actions. Your actions are you take her on amazing trips to exotic and romantic locations and are ok with not having sex there. Then the next year you go on another amazing trip and so on. 

You work hard and provide for her and your home and family and pay bills and help provide her a nice house in a safe location and have good food on the table. 

You hold her hand walking down the street and give hugs during the day and cuddles and smooches at night and tell her how much you love her and how great she is. 

You go out into the rain at night to get her medicine and soup and restock the toilet paper when she is sick. 

You treat her friends and family as your own and are always there to lend them a hand when needed as well. 


I can go on but you get the point. Your actions are of a perfectly happy and content married family man even though you complain about sex.


Now, how do you think @BluesPower would conduct himself if he was on a 3rd date and there was no strong signs of sexual chemistry and compatibility? Do you think there would be a 4th date?

If he was married and 5, 10, 15 years into the marriage his wife lost all attraction and desire for him - what do you think his actions would be? What do you think his actions would tell be telling her REGARDLESS OF WHAT WAS COMING OUT OF HIS MOUTH?

If your wife does not understand how important sex is to you, it is because you have never SHOWN her how important it is to you. Yes, you may have said the words, "sex is important to me" but then you take her to the Bahamas and drink mai tai's together on the beach and then you give her hugs and cuddles and words of love and acceptance when you get back home after not getting so much as a handjob in Bahamas. 

Your acceptance of sex-starved marriage and your actions of love and devotion despite the lack of sexuality is telling her that everything is hunky dory and that despite some whining and moaning here and there, you are good with it.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> “if xyz doesn’t stop I am leaving”.


That is certainly is important. Doing that without it sounding like a threat to divorce isn't easy. "It's not a threat, I'm just saying if xyz continues it will inevitably lead to a divorce." BTDT, she heard (and I heard her and worked on my own crap).


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> But to all you guys I ask the general question.... Unless you have two heads, or are horribly deformed or have a micro penis, you understand that there is a woman out there for you that will actually be attracted to you, love you, and wants to have sex with you?


...and for all we know, there may be some chick out there that has a fetish for deformed, double-headed dudes with a micro penis.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> It's because actions speak a million times louder than words.
> 
> It's not that they don't hear it; it's that they are giving actions much more credence than words.
> 
> ...


A testament to why good advice is hardly ever taken on these forums ........it's only words.

On the other hand .... those that arrive here that are truly ready to take action ... can often find what they are looking for....just a little guidance for those actions (which they are prepared to take)


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

BluesPower said:


> Did you just say that, really?
> 
> - snip -
> 
> ...


I'm about fed up with this fairy tale. It is a waste of time for 80% of us. Here is what we understand that you are so blissfully unaware of. Horribly deformed is most commonly described as between 5'3" and 5'8" in height. After that there is a list of dealbreakers as long as the Potomac river, including political opinion, income, hairstyle and sock color. This is a game at a fixed table. Pointless to play. You only got one thing right "a woman", not some women, or even a few. If you are lucky you will run onto one woman. If you are even luckier she will satay interested past 3 years , weeks, dates, coffees. . . .

Oh and about that foot massage, that's just the crumb we get. She will allow us to touch her body to relieve the pain she has from the shoes she wore to attract attention from the other man.

And, That is why I don't listen.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Hey as long as someone has clean, well pedicured feet with no corns, bunions, fungus or lunar landscape soles, I'll give footrubs until the cows come home as long as something else is rubbed on me! 

just had to throw that out there ;-)


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm about fed up with this fairy tale. It is a waste of time for 80% of us. Here is what we understand that you are so blissfully unaware of. Horribly deformed is most commonly described as between 5'3" and 5'8" in height. After that there is a list of dealbreakers as long as the Potomac river, including political opinion, income, hairstyle and sock color. This is a game at a fixed table. Pointless to play. You only got one thing right "a woman", not some women, or even a few. If you are lucky you will run onto one woman. If you are even luckier she will satay interested past 3 years , weeks, dates, coffees. . . .
> 
> Oh and about that foot massage, that's just the crumb we get. She will allow us to touch her body to relieve the pain she has from the shoes she wore to attract attention from the other man.
> 
> And, That is why I don't listen.


Why is "horribly deformed if 5'3" to 5'8" ?

I know of fire fighters, police officers, EMTs, many in that height range. Granted they are in top physical shape, but so can all be.

PS I do joke with them about getting things off top shelves and being vertically challenged, but only now and then. 

On the income, hair style, and sock color items- most men I know, realize it's good for your own self to dress well, get good haircuts, be financially responsible. 

Aren't these no brainers?

I dress differently sometimes, dressing down, to me, when I'm in steel toe boots, jeans, professional business casual shirt - in lieu of my staple slacks/suits.

Honestly I do realize that unless the folks I'm meeting already know me, I do get treated differently, until we each identify our roles. But we all know that happens.

But what's the deformity statement reason?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm about fed up with this fairy tale. It is a waste of time for 80% of us. Here is what we understand that you are so blissfully unaware of. Horribly deformed is most commonly described as between 5'3" and 5'8" in height. After that there is a list of dealbreakers as long as the Potomac river, including political opinion, income, hairstyle and sock color. This is a game at a fixed table. Pointless to play. You only got one thing right "a woman", not some women, or even a few. If you are lucky you will run onto one woman. If you are even luckier she will satay interested past 3 years , weeks, dates, coffees. . . .
> 
> .


It is challenging and difficult for the common man. Mother Nature intended it to be challenging because she only wants men strong enough, smart enough and with enough drive and determination to spawn the next generation. She wants the weak and lazy and inert to keep their genes to themselves. 

I don't think Blues is saying that any guy can be a stud and have women lined up down the street waiting their turn. 

He is saying that unless someone has some kind of bona fide, untreatable deformity that someone out there will dig him. 

Now yes, that number may not be large for some people and some people will not have as many options or opportunities as others. 

That is why IMHO guys should not waste their time and energies with a chick that clearly does not dig them. 

An average to below average man is going to have to work hard and put up with a lot of dead-ends, setback and near misses on a good day. But one of the things that hurt a man's chances of finding good love and passion is if he keeps keep chasing the windmill of trying to appease one woman that doesn't dig him. 

In other words there comes a time when one needs to realize they are barking up the wrong tree and every moment they spend barking up the wrong tree, they are taking time and energy away from finding the right tree. 

Dead-ends and rejections and near misses may seem like a waste of time. But staying with someone you know isn't into you is a GUARANTEED waste of time. 

With time and effort and perseverance you will probably find someone. But if you stay with someone who doesn't dig you, then you are guaranteed of not finding it.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm about fed up with this fairy tale. It is a waste of time for 80% of us. Here is what we understand that you are so blissfully unaware of. Horribly deformed is most commonly described as between 5'3" and 5'8" in height. After that there is a list of dealbreakers as long as the Potomac river, including political opinion, income, hairstyle and sock color. This is a game at a fixed table. Pointless to play. You only got one thing right "a woman", not some women, or even a few. If you are lucky you will run onto one woman. If you are even luckier she will satay interested past 3 years , weeks, dates, coffees. . . .
> 
> Oh and about that foot massage, that's just the crumb we get. She will allow us to touch her body to relieve the pain she has from the shoes she wore to attract attention from the other man.
> 
> And, That is why I don't listen.


I really am sorry that you feel this way.

Yes I am taller, 6'1, but that is not really that tall. I am "built" so to speak, I go 230, not much fat, but some. 

I get that you feel like there is nothing that you can do, but maybe your attitude is the issue? 

I have a guy that works for me, and he is short. Like 5'7" at most. He is drop dead gorgeous, and I am not gay or bi or any of that, but he is a GOOD Looking man. He is in shape, but he is not a muscular as me. His wife is DROP DEAD GEORGEOUS. 

So it is not all about height. 

I know that you will not believe me, but there is someone for you out there. 

Wow, that is just so horrible to think that way...


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

This photo of Serengeti National Park is courtesy of TripAdvisor

The wrong tree I'm barking up. AKA women.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Mother Nature intended it to be challenging because she only wants men strong enough, smart enough and with enough drive and determination to spawn the next generation. She wants the weak and lazy and inert to keep their genes to themselves.


Let me tie this back into the thread for relevance. 

Mother Nature is not a politically correct chick that thinks everyone should get a trophy and every should feel good all the time. All she cares about is that the species continues on and that genes that move forward to future generations are strong, resilient and have initiative. 

I've always thought Uhtred seems like a very good man and a man that many a decent woman would be glad to have as her own and glad to drop her knickers and bend over for. I think if he were to drop divorce papers on her today and run his "Available Flag" up the flag pole this afternoon that by Sat night he would be having a nice candlelight dinner in a fine dining establishment with an attractive, squared away, educated, professional woman that would likely ride him like a mechanical bull that night or at some point in the near future. 

However, Uhtred himself has claimed that he doesn't want to change his ways, does not want the effort and expense and disruption of divorce, doesn't want to go onto the market to look for anyone else.... and yet really does not want to try to change himself or do anything different in efforts to become someone his wife would desire. 

That is all his prerogative and in some ways perhaps that even makes him a fine man in today's world. 

But from Mother Nature's perspective, that is likely showing himself to be lazy and inert and lacking drive and determination and for that she says, "...no poon for you!!" 

Now is he ever going to be another Blues and be out banging groupies and desperate housewives and having various chicks stopping by his house for a quicky on their way to the grocery store? No, that's definitely not who and what he is. 

But will there be a healthy, attractive, professional woman that will desire and lay him like tile within days or weeks of him declaring himself on the open dating market???? Absolutely. Without question - assuming he puts in the effort and puts himself out there. 


Mother Nature rewards the bull elk that climbs up the mountain in the snow and bangs his head against the other bulls by mating with the cows that are available to him. 

The elk that just sits in the warm comfort of the box canyon grows old and sick and dies alone being eaten by the wolves.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

a reminder that evolution has achieved it's pinnacle in man. the most powerful man in the free world. Apparently the system is broken.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Mr. Nail said:


> a reminder that evolution has achieved it's pinnacle in man. the most powerful man in the free world. Apparently the system is broken.


Yeah but he gets a lot of tail. 

The liberals and democrats tried to use that against him but no one cared. As much as we love to hate him, the one thing he said that was true is that if you are rich and powerful enough, you can grab 'em by the ----- and get away with it. 

Frankly I believe that is why a good number of people voted for him. People wanted to see an alpha in office to tell off the snowflakes and bang chicks and conquer other kingdoms. He may be a jerk but at least he's not an Ivy League lawyer that watches his every word and makes sure that every is comfortable and feels good while he slips it up their butts under the table. 

He was speaking from experience. He got away with it and will probably continue to do so.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I don't see a foot massage as "jumping through hoops" or "for sex". Its just a nice thing you do for someone. 



UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Ughhhh....foot message...why all the jumping through hoops for sex? Thats not even foreplay, thats like a sex tax.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Not sure why this is difficult to communicate here. I am unhappy due to the lack of sex, and sex matters to me, but it is one of many things that matter. On the whole, with everything considered, I would rather continue in this near-sexless marriage, than divorce and find a partner where the sex is great, but other things might not be. 






Personal said:


> When her words are incongruent with her actions, you have no reason to believe her repeated requests are anything but trivial.
> 
> This really isn't rocket science, it should be abundantly clear to you why she ignores your repeated requests, while your actions prove a lack of sex doesn't matter much to you.
> 
> ...


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

But what are the options? I can divorce. I can threaten to divorce unless we have regular sex. I can start a transactional relationship where I trade sex for other favors. 

The first is not unreasonable but all things considered, I think I'm happier married. The others are directly distasteful to me - I have no desire for sex with someone who doesn't desire me - I can buy that any time I want. 




oldshirt said:


> It's because actions speak a million times louder than words.
> 
> It's not that they don't hear it; it's that they are giving actions much more credence than words.
> 
> ...


----------



## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Yeah but he gets a lot of tail.
> 
> The liberals and democrats tried to use that against him but no one cared. As much as we love to hate him, the one thing he said that was true is that if you are rich and powerful enough, you can grab 'em by the ----- and get away with it.
> 
> ...


lol...an "alpha".....the comedy continues


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> People talk to me - maybe more than they should, so I get an interesting view of relationships sometimes. It seems so common that someone will try again and again to to explain to their partner about a problem with the marriage, and the partner will seem unable to hear / accept / believe in the issue.
> 
> I see it in my own situation where my wive has never understood /accepted that the lack of sex is a serious issue.


I had a sexual situation where I was convinced that I had made my desires clearly known for many years with little or no change on her part.

When I finally got through, she honestly claimed to have no idea how much it meant to me.

Since the break through was achieved, both our sex lives have greatly improved (although it wasn't bad to begin with).

She's fairly self-centered but did genuinely love me and care about my happiness. 

I blame myself for not having the courage to clearly state my needs in a strong enough way that she would get the message.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Don't discount the possibility that they do hear and just don't care, or that they have heard but the answer is no.


That's a clear reason to clearly and unambiguously ask for what you want, so that you can flush out the possibility that they just don't care.

Often that's why people beat around the bush. Because they don't want to find that out. Or that the answer is "No".


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> Did you just say that, really?
> 
> Dude it is not a sex tax. It is something that most woman love, they love the attention. They love the effort.
> 
> ...


After I divorced, I get plenty of sex. I don't rub feet as some prerequisite to have sex with her. Like "Rub my feet, and we will have wild sex". That is a sex tax. I will give massages, because that can be sexy for both, but feet rubs nah thanks.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uhtred said:


> , than divorce and find a partner where the sex is great, but other things might not be.


Once you are with someone that truly desires and and ravages you like a starving tiger, those "other things" suddenly become way less important.

What "other things" do you truly need in a woman that you either can't do for yourself or get from other relationships with other friends and family?

Romance and sexuality are what make our special someone special. Everything else can be obtained from other people and other relationships.

Now yes, there is a limit. If you want to have children and a family then she at least has to be mother material and someone you can bring around your Family for thanksgiving dinner. 

But my general point is once you have someone that truly desires you sexually and takes care of business in bed, as long as she isn't embezzling your every dime and as long as she isn't abusing your children or boiling puppies and making you listen to them squeal, what other stuff do you really need?

95% of employed, drug-free, nonalcoholic women are good, decent human beings that don't steal money, don't harm kids and don't boil puppies or bunnies. 

So why all the fear about "other things"?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Once you are with someone that truly desires and and ravages you like a starving tiger, those "other things" suddenly become way less important.
> 
> What "other things" do you truly need in a woman that you either can't do for yourself or get from other relationships with other friends and family?
> 
> ...


I don't presume to answer for Uhtred here, but having recently been through this thought process myself, I will offer my own take.

The spouse is the one you live with, share a home with, spend time with, etc, more so than an any of those other non-romantic/non-sexual relations. That being the case, all other forms of compatibility become more important than they would be with your colleagues or golf buddies. 

The things you mention aren't entirely binary as you present them. The level of importance and where they cross the line into unacceptability or even being mildly problematic will vary from person to person. It's a sliding scale. For instance, you say "as long as she isn't embezzling your every dime..." but there's a lot of grey before that goes black. Financial responsibility is not a simple yes/no. I agree, the better the sex, the less important the money... but it's not an all or nothing proposition. Same goes for every other aspect of compatibility. 

And I'm damned sick and tired of hearing all the damned barking dogs in my neighborhood, so any time my wife decides to start boiling puppies, that'd actually be a bonus (but I digress).

As you say yourself, "there is a limit." The bottom line is that limit lies in a different location for each individual.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I don't presume to answer for Uhtred here, but having recently been through this thought process myself, I will offer my own take.
> 
> The spouse is the one you live with, share a home with, spend time with, etc, more so than an any of those other non-romantic/non-sexual relations. That being the case, all other forms of compatibility become more important than they would be with your colleagues or golf buddies.
> 
> ...


I can't disagree with anything you are saying per se.

I will just reiterate that most functional adult women are good, decent people that cause no harm in the world. 

Thus to find one with whom there is good sexual chemistry, the rest will likely fall into place to an at least acceptable degree.

What you are on the money about is each individual will need to determine what their limit really is.

The catch to that here is Uhtred is not a young man looking for a wife of 50-60 years and mother to his children etc etc. if memory serves me correct, he is a middle aged, professional man with grown or almost grown children. The stakes are different than when he was starting life in his 20s.

A decent, self-supporting woman that lays him like tile, doesn't cost an arm and a leg, shares maybe a couple interests and hobbies and doesn't cause unreasonable problems may be just the ticket. 

I have the feeling that he is currently putting so much emphasis on "other things" because right now "other things" is all he has.

Once someone is sucking every last drop out of him, suddenly those 'other things' won't mean as much.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> snip
> 
> But to all you guys I ask the general question.... Unless you have two heads, or are horribly deformed or have a micro penis, you understand that there is a woman out there for you that will actually be attracted to you, love you, and wants to have sex with you?
> 
> I mean, you guys understand that, don't you????


Oh yes. There are unquestionably women who I am attracted to who want to have sex with me. I have no doubt that I could divorce and marry (or date) someone and have lots a hot awesome sex. 

If sex were the only criteria, there is a very simple solution for me.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uhtred said:


> But what are the options? I can divorce. I can threaten to divorce unless we have regular sex. I can start a transactional relationship where I trade sex for other favors.
> 
> The first is not unreasonable but all things considered, I think I'm happier married. The others are directly distasteful to me - I have no desire for sex with someone who doesn't desire me - I can buy that any time I want.


Yeah but isn't the transactional sex with someone that doesn't desire you what you have now?


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Oh yes. There are unquestionably women who I am attracted to who want to have sex with me. I have no doubt that I could divorce and marry (or date) someone and have lots a hot awesome sex.
> 
> If sex were the only criteria, there is a very simple solution for me.


Then that is fine. You value being her girlfriend more than you value intimacy. I really think sex higher on your priority sheet than you let on, though. But divorce can be scary (at first).


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I guess that for me the sex part itself seems easy. Just enter into a long term business arrangement with someone who will provide sex. (either officially, or unofficially by marrying a woman who is happy with a comfortable lifestyle and enjoys sex).

But what about shared interests? Can I just magically find someone who is interested in archaeology - and whose expertise makes visiting obscure ancient sites more interesting? Someone who is non-expert in space technology, but who enjoys leaning on my expertise? Someone who can intelligently discuss politics, art, social issues, science, etc. Someone who enjoys a compatible mix of rough and luxury travel, and finds the same sort of destinations fun (and who doesn't think the point of traveling to Rome is to go "shopping"). Someone with compatible friends, compatible interests in doing random fun things on weekends. Someone who pulls their own weight on chores at home, and has an interesting professional career?

Sex is very important, but there is also a lot more to life than sex. A while back I posted a question / survey on what people considered the most troubling issue in their marriages - sex was not at the top of the list. 

The other part is that she has not changed since before we were married - so taking an action that would make her miserable would be dishonorable. 

All this is a little off topic though because I wasn't specifically thinking of sex, but in general of people's inability to hear / believe what their partners are telling them. 








oldshirt said:


> snip
> 
> But my general point is once you have someone that truly desires you sexually and takes care of business in bed, as long as she isn't embezzling your every dime and as long as she isn't abusing your children or boiling puppies and making you listen to them squeal, what other stuff do you really need?
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

No, I think when we have sex she wants it - its just rare that that happens. (difficult to tell though). Either way though its not something she does in order to get something from me in return




oldshirt said:


> Yeah but isn't the transactional sex with someone that doesn't desire you what you have now?


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Pretty much. Both in our 50s, no children, both with professional careers. 



oldshirt said:


> snip
> The catch to that here is Uhtred is not a young man looking for a wife of 50-60 years and mother to his children etc etc. if memory serves me correct, he is a middle aged, professional man with grown or almost grown children. The stakes are different than when he was starting life in his 20s.
> 
> snip


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

uhtred said:


> I guess that for me the sex part itself seems easy. Just enter into a long term business arrangement with someone who will provide sex. (either officially, or unofficially by marrying a woman who is happy with a comfortable lifestyle and enjoys sex).
> 
> But what about shared interests? *Can I just magically find someone who is interested in archaeology - and whose expertise makes visiting obscure ancient sites more interesting? Someone who is non-expert in space technology, but who enjoys leaning on my expertise? Someone who can intelligently discuss politics, art, social issues, science, etc. Someone who enjoys a compatible mix of rough and luxury travel, and finds the same sort of destinations fun (and who doesn't think the point of traveling to Rome is to go "shopping"). Someone with compatible friends, compatible interests in doing random fun things on weekends. Someone who pulls their own weight on chores at home, and has an interesting professional career?*
> 
> ...


If my wife had a twin, I'd set you up  You literally just described her AND she likes to play in the PigglyPen often haha


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

uhtred said:


> I guess that for me the sex part itself seems easy. Just enter into a long term business arrangement with someone who will provide sex. (either officially, or unofficially by marrying a woman who is happy with a comfortable lifestyle and enjoys sex).
> 
> But what about shared interests? Can I just magically find someone who is interested in archaeology - and whose expertise makes visiting obscure ancient sites more interesting? Someone who is non-expert in space technology, but who enjoys leaning on my expertise? Someone who can intelligently discuss politics, art, social issues, science, etc. Someone who enjoys a compatible mix of rough and luxury travel, and finds the same sort of destinations fun (and who doesn't think the point of traveling to Rome is to go "shopping"). Someone with compatible friends, compatible interests in doing random fun things on weekends. Someone who pulls their own weight on chores at home, and has an interesting professional career?


What you are describing is a friend who is also your roommate. You understand that right?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> After I divorced, I get plenty of sex. I don't rub feet as some prerequisite to have sex with her. Like "Rub my feet, and we will have wild sex". That is a sex tax. I will give massages, because that can be sexy for both, but feet rubs nah thanks.


No you don't rub feet to get sex like I said. You rub whatever because you, hopefully, love them and they love you. 

All those little things that woman love, me too for some of them, like cuddling, massages, listening to what ever they want to talk about, that is part of being with a woman. 

I do literally whatever I can to make them happy, simply because I like making them happy. 

Conversely, I made and brought coffee to GF this morning, because she thinks that is great, and frankly I am going to make coffee for myself anyway so why not bring her some. She thinks it is so great that I do that, so I don't say anything, I let her think that I hung the moon. 

I also cuddled her this morning because I like to cuddle, and she LOVES IT, as do I...

And brother you are missing out on the foot rub thing, you need to readjust your thinking on that one. 

Oh, and when she was getting ready for work, walking around naked... Yeah I banged her brains out for a while, but not because I rubbed her feet, or brought her coffee, I banged her because I wanted to...

But really, what do they expect to happen, walking around like that...


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> No you don't rub feet to get sex like I said. You rub whatever because you, hopefully, love them and they love you.
> 
> All those little things that woman love, me too for some of them, like cuddling, massages, listening to what ever they want to talk about, that is part of being with a woman.
> 
> ...


I have nothing against rubbing feet, just because. I don't particularly like it, but I'll do it occasionally. Thats not what I'm saying. But I'm not going to do it as a prerequisite to sexy time, cuz her feet aren't connected to her clitoris. She may as well tell me "OK, lets have sex, but first go fold my clothes (or insert random chore) so I'm not stressing about laundry while your pounding away". Nah, thanks.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uhtred said:


> Can I just magically find someone who is interested in archaeology - and whose expertise makes visiting obscure ancient sites more interesting? Someone who is non-expert in space technology, but who enjoys leaning on my expertise? Someone who can intelligently discuss politics, art, social issues, science, etc. Someone who enjoys a compatible mix of rough and luxury travel, and finds the same sort of destinations fun (and who doesn't think the point of traveling to Rome is to go "shopping"). Someone with compatible friends, compatible interests in doing random fun things on weekends. Someone who pulls their own weight on chores at home, and has an interesting professional career.
> 
> .


Dude you just described *ME!!!* I am all of those things!! I'd do that stuff with ya.

Now I'm not gay so I wouldn't be get'n down with you at the end of the day after checking out some archeological digs and then tracking the next Passover of the International Space Station, but if you had a chick that dug you, then she could go shopping in Rome while checked out the coliseum and then she could ride you like Secretariat when we got back to the hotel that night.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

On the foot rub thing: That's only one of several things that I feel like can shut my multi-tasking brain down and get me focused. It's not like I'm asking him to be my slave and service some silly need. I don't actually NEED a foot rub. It's just a redirect for my brain. I'm very cerebral and consider sex an animalistic joy that requires me to get my brain to just STFU.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I don't know if this helps, but at times when my wife is telling me something and it's gone beyond my usually 10 second attention span I'll reach in to hug and kiss her even if she doesn't stop talking until I'm about to lay one on her - then she stops talking.

Note, this is different if we're having a needed conversation on major house stuff where I need us to agree on an upcoming whatever.

But as a rule, the kiss gets her right to the point if it's dragging on.

This may be sexist, OK, but she's sexist to me too.

This works for us
And if it's important, she'll tell me again, without exception. Then I'll hear her.

😍😍😍


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

uhtred said:


> All this is a little off topic though because I wasn't specifically thinking of sex, but in general of people's inability to hear / believe what their partners are telling them.


I think it's because of the way some of us communicate. I'll give an example.

You may or may not know from my other posts that I am trying to navigate dealing with my girlfriends anger. She will get angry and rant and rave like a crazy person for long periods of time when disagreements arise. When she is doing this I do not hear a damn thing she is saying. This is because I do not communicate that way. I communicate non confrontationally and like to discuss things like an adult. Often times later on she will say I don't understand why you do not remember me saying this. I will tell her that I can not hear what she is saying when she is being a crazy person (I don't say it like that, lol). She will not hear me because she is to busy taking what I am saying as a personal attack, thinking of what she will say next, and becoming defensive. This is why we often do not hear each other. 

That is how I would answer "inability to hear" as for "inability to believe" that is denial and our rationalization hamster running on the wheel.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I don't know if this helps, but at times when my wife is telling me something and it's gone beyond my usually 10 second attention span I'll reach in to hug and kiss her even if she doesn't stop talking until I'm about to lay one on her - then she stops talking.
> 
> Note, this is different if we're having a needed conversation on major house stuff where I need us to agree on an upcoming whatever.
> 
> ...


Ah hahaha. That works unless its a phone call. I have a 10 minute rule with her that she accepts. But I usually stop listening around 5 minutes in. Its called compromise.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> . But I'm not going to do it as a prerequisite to sexy time, cuz her feet aren't connected to her clitoris.


Oh Buddy. You don't know how wrong you are there. 

To be fair, it is an individual thing and some women can't stand their feet be touched.

But others.............

Oh my! ;-)


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> A decent, self-supporting woman that lays him like tile, doesn't cost an arm and a leg, shares maybe a couple interests and hobbies and doesn't cause unreasonable problems may be just the ticket.


I can't speak for him....but, for me, she could share absolutely no interests or hobbies, and still be just the ticket.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Why is "horribly deformed if 5'3" to 5'8" ?
> 
> I know of fire fighters, police officers, EMTs, many in that height range. Granted they are in top physical shape, but so can all be.
> 
> PS *I do joke with them about getting things off top shelves and being vertically challenged*, but only now and then.


Yeah things on the top shelf suck, which is why I married taller women.

As to being vertically challenged, I certainly am. Yet it never stopped me when I was a young man, leading my soldiers over 12 foot walls on obstacle courses.

I've got lots of short male friends, who have never lacked for attractive female suitors, sexual partners and pretty wives. Some of them are guys I went to school with, some are men I served with in the Army, while some others are fighter pilots or have been fighter pilots. With the rest working in a variety of occupations.

I don't get the being horribly deformed thing either.



Mr. Nail said:


> I'm about fed up with this fairy tale. It is a waste of time for 80% of us. Here is what we understand that you are so blissfully unaware of. Horribly deformed is most commonly described as between 5'3" and 5'8" in height. After that there is a list of dealbreakers as long as the Potomac river, including political opinion, income, hairstyle and sock color. This is a game at a fixed table. Pointless to play. You only got one thing right "a woman", not some women, or even a few. If you are lucky you will run onto one woman. If you are even luckier she will satay interested past 3 years , weeks, dates, coffees. . . .
> 
> Oh and about that foot massage, that's just the crumb we get. She will allow us to touch her body to relieve the pain she has from the shoes she wore to attract attention from the other man.
> 
> And, That is why I don't listen.


You keep thinking that and behaving in a way that matches that thinking and you will get exactly that.

As to the height nonsense, try opening your eyes and looking around you. Since there are lots of short men who have no trouble getting women, ****ing them silly and keeping them, if that is what they want.

I'm 5'3", when my wife is barefoot she can look down at the top of my head while we are both standing up. My ex-wife could also look down at the top of my head, when she was barefoot as well.

Yet I've enjoyed three long-term relationships with beautiful women, married two of them and had the other ask me to marry her as well (although I turned her down).

I've also had sex with plenty of other beautiful women as well, of whom the majority of them asked me out, propositioned me, picked me up at clubs, or parties. I've had women offer me sex within minutes through hours of meeting them (including my ex-wife). I've had women ask me to have sex with them, even when they knew I was married or were otherwise in a long term sexual relationship with someone.

When my wife asked me out on a first date, I was casually dating/playing with another woman. At the same time, another woman from work was about to ask me out. Which is one of the reasons why my wife, asked me out when she did.

All of the men my wife had dated (and who proposed to her) before she was with me were taller than her and were tall in general. Yet she asked me out on a date (despite never having asked any other man before), wanted to have sex with me and then later wanted to marry me.

When I was almost 16 I changed High Schools, because my family moved. Anyway within a couple of weeks of arriving at that school, several of my very pretty female peers had asked me to be their boyfriend. I literally could easily pick and choose. Then after I turned 16, a just turned 18 year old woman. At the same school in her final year, asked me to be her boyfriend and to have her virginity.

For most of my adult life and even earlier (from 17) I have been laid like tile, by taller women and some shorter ones as well, and turned down some others along the way as well.

After my divorce I had one young woman try to woo me with her family money, promising to keep me well gifted and entertained if I would be her boyfriend (I turned her down).

I've had a young Israeli woman ask me to take her virginity at a party, although I turned her offer down because I was after another woman.

I've had sex with one woman at a nightclub within minutes of meeting her, followed by having another woman press her phone number on a note into my hand on the way home. Of which I found myself having sex with her, at hers after she took me out on a date that she paid for less than 24 hours later.

I had one Irish woman who I hadn't met, ask me out sight unseen. All because she enjoyed our happenstance phone conversation and she liked the sound of my voice.

There's plenty more of course, yet I think I have illustrated my point.

That said at 5'3", to consider me horribly deformed, or sexually disadvantaged because of my height is ridiculous.

Do you realise that men who think like you, make it a lot easier for men like me to easily get laid like tile. Since men like you say it's "pointless to play", while I think I'll have lots of that and get exactly that.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Enough with the chest pounding. There will always be exceptions and outliers. The 80/20 thing works both ways.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Not sure why this is difficult to communicate here. I am unhappy due to the lack of sex, and sex matters to me, but it is one of many things that matter. On the whole, with everything considered, *I would rather continue in this near-sexless marriage*, than divorce and find a partner where the sex is great, but other things might not be.


Which is why I am encouraging you to embrace who you are. Rather than suffer the turmoil of your own cognitive dissonance. I really think you should embrace your desire to have a near-sexless marriage.

Since your actions match your claim that you "would rather continue in this near-sexless marriage", whereas your words that claim you are "unhappy due to the lack of sex, and sex matters" to you, don't match your actions.

So given that, why should your wife believe your words, when they don't match your behaviour?

At the end of the day you would do well to realise, that your wife really does hear you loud and clear. Since your actions through multiple decades keep telling her that you "would rather continue in this near-sexless marriage". All while her actions, prove that she believes you (as do I).


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> Enough with the chest pounding. There will always be exceptions and outliers. The 80/20 thing works both ways.


Oh pleeeaase! There are so many short men who have no trouble. If only you opened your eyes.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

uhtred said:


> But what are the options? I can divorce. I can threaten to divorce unless we have regular sex. I can start a transactional relationship where I trade sex for other favors.
> 
> The first is not unreasonable but all things considered, I think I'm happier married. The others are directly distasteful to me - *I have no desire for sex with someone who doesn't desire me* - I can buy that any time I want.


Then why on earth do you want to have sex with your wife? Because after multiple decades it should be pretty obvious to you, that she evidently doesn't desire you sexually.

That said this is just more empty rhetoric, where your actions don't match your words.

Oh and since it seems you missed it, the following ought to help you.



Personal said:


> Sure I appreciate your perspective that to tell her would be manipulative, yet this comes down to intent.
> 
> If your intent is to manipulate her, it is exactly that.
> 
> ...


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> I had a sexual situation where I was convinced that I had made my desires clearly known for many years with little or no change on her part.
> 
> When I finally got through, she honestly claimed to have no idea how much it meant to me.
> 
> ...


There it is @uhtred, the powerful combination of responsibility and courage.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Another reason not to listen. Their world has no relevance to yours. I'm not happy with biweekly sex that's my world. She is thoroughly satisfied with monthly sex that is her world. I have no frame of reference to understand what she is saying.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

uhtred said:


> But what about shared interests? Can I just magically find someone who is interested in archaeology - and whose expertise makes visiting obscure ancient sites more interesting? Someone who is non-expert in space technology, but who enjoys leaning on my expertise? Someone who can intelligently discuss politics, art, social issues, science, etc. Someone who enjoys a compatible mix of rough and luxury travel, and finds the same sort of destinations fun (and who doesn't think the point of traveling to Rome is to go "shopping"). Someone with compatible friends, compatible interests in doing random fun things on weekends. Someone who pulls their own weight on chores at home, and has an interesting professional career?


Women like that are not that hard to find. I've been married to two of them and have known others.

My wife is interested in archaeology to the point that she was doing a bachelors degree in archaeology and has participated in archaeological digs in her own time. All the rest sounds like my wife as well, to the point I am starting to wonder if my wife might be a bigamist.



uhtred said:


> The other part is that she has not changed since before we were married - so taking an action that would make her miserable would be dishonorable.


What makes you think staying married to a woman, you wish you didn't marry is honourable behaviour? At the same time as you tell her you want more sex, while your actions prove you are happy with less sex.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Why the absolutes? Sex matters to me a lot. Other things matter to me a lot. Life involves lots of trade-offs. I may like some things at my job and dislike others. That doesn't mean that my dislike is fake - it is just that the job I have is a good solution *overall*.

I complain about the endless bureaucracy at my job, but don't leave because of the other positive things about the job. I complain about the reliability issues with my 50 year old airplane, but don't trade it in because otherwise it does what I want at a price I can afford. I complain (here, not in real life) about the lack of sex in my marriage but I don't leave because of the other positive things. 

Maybe my wife doesn't care, as opposed to doesn't understand. Maybe sex is so unpleasant for her that she is unable to do it. 




Personal said:


> Which is why I am encouraging you to embrace who you are. Rather than suffer the turmoil of your own cognitive dissonance. I really think you should embrace your desire to have a near-sexless marriage.
> 
> Since your actions match your claim that you "would rather continue in this near-sexless marriage", whereas your words that claim you are "unhappy due to the lack of sex, and sex matters" to you, don't match your actions.
> 
> ...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Why the absolutes? Sex matters to me a lot. Other things matter to me a lot. Life involves lots of trade-offs. I may like some things at my job and dislike others. That doesn't mean that my dislike is fake - it is just that the job I have is a good solution *overall*.
> 
> I complain about the endless bureaucracy at my job, but don't leave because of the other positive things about the job. I complain about the reliability issues with my 50 year old airplane, but don't trade it in because otherwise it does what I want at a price I can afford. I complain (here, not in real life) about the lack of sex in my marriage but I don't leave because of the other positive things.
> 
> Maybe my wife doesn't care, as opposed to doesn't understand. Maybe sex is so unpleasant for her that she is unable to do it.


You know what. If you don't think sex in a romantic relationship is important, that is your right. 

What I am, and others, saying is that in a romantic relationship or marriage, sex is VERY IMPORTANT, it is the only thing that differentiates roommates from a marriage. 

It is the ONLY thing the really keeps a normal couple bonded. For a lot of us, sex is a part of love its self, not just part of marriage, no sex no love. 

Further, we also feel that if she does not want to have sex with you then she does not love you romantically. 

So for a lot of us, that prioritize sex, the amount of sex has to be at a level the BOTH partners are satisfied with, and guess what, she/he has to want to have sex with us. 

So for example, if I even tonight, thought that my GF did not want to have sex with me, and she did not say anything, and provided me some duty sex, I would break up with her in the middle of it once I realized. She has to want to have sex with me and desire me, or there is no relationship. 

Does that help you understand how much some of us not only value sex, but good sex, and passionate sex, and desire from our partners. 

No, sex may not be the most important thing, (It is BTW), but it IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS. And there are about 2 things that are important in a marriage, love and sex...


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Why the absolutes? Sex matters to me a lot. Other things matter to me a lot. Life involves lots of trade-offs. I may like some things at my job and dislike others. That doesn't mean that my dislike is fake - it is just that the job I have is a good solution *overall*.
> 
> I complain about the endless bureaucracy at my job, but don't leave because of the other positive things about the job. I complain about the reliability issues with my 50 year old airplane, but don't trade it in because otherwise it does what I want at a price I can afford. I complain (here, not in real life) about the lack of sex in my marriage but I don't leave because of the other positive things.


If your wife knows sex is important to you and if she does indeed love you, then she would want to make you happy. This just sounds like pure selfishness on her part. You even said she enjoys it when it does happen. But she would rather you go yank one out to pornhub than bother her. I think you've pedastaled this woman so high, that you can't see how awful she is treating you.

What is your routine now? You say you occasionally have sex with her? How does that come about? Is it duty sex or does the moon have to align in such a way to get the blood flowing down there?
What does she say when you speak your concern over your dead bedroom?

I don't think it matters much. She isnt going to have sex with you and you aren't going to leave. She knows that. She is happy with the status quo, you find it tolerable. Thats all thats important for her.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Why the absolutes? Sex matters to me a lot.


I find that hard very to believe, because you remain married to your wife while getting sexual crumbs.

On the other hand I have no trouble believing you, when you write the following "I would rather continue in this near-sexless marriage", because your actions match your claim.




uhtred said:


> I complain (here, *not in real life*) about the lack of sex in my marriage but I don't leave because of the other positive things.


Wow! So you don't even tell your wife that you are unhappy about a lack of sex, all while your actions show you are fine with a lack of sex.

So this isn't an issue of your wife not hearing you at all.

This is simply an issue of your own cognitive dissonance combined with an unwillingness to communicate honestly with your wife.

Seriously your poor wife has no chance, to even consider your desires. When you are evidently loathe to express yourself to her. And are unwilling to afford her the honour and dignity, of being afforded some honesty from you.

Instead of wondering why your wife doesn't listen to you, why don't you go find yourself a mirror and figure out why you won't tell her.



uhtred said:


> Maybe my wife doesn't care, as opposed to doesn't understand. Maybe sex is so unpleasant for her that she is unable to do it.


Well while-ever you just presume things about your wife and fail to communicate with her, maybe's are all you're going to have.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

@uhtred when are you finally going to appreciate, that you are responsible for your near-sexless marriage?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Sure, if by responsible, you mean that I can take actions to have a non-sexless marriage. I can divorce her and marry someone who would want frequent sex. In fact a woman I know and like just got divorced and it is very clear that she is interested in me. If a marriage with sex is the primary goal, this is easy to solve. 

Why don't I do it?

In general I prefer time with my wife to time spent with other people - which matters for the 95% of the time we would not be having sex in a typical marriage.

I am unwilling to hurt my wife, despite the harm she has caused me because I love her, and I am sworn to take care of her. (either reason would be enough, but I have both).

What I cannot have is a marriage to my wife that includes enthusiastic sex. So I have to choose between the options that I have. 








Personal said:


> @uhtred when are you finally going to appreciate, that you are responsible for your near-sexless marriage?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Personal said:


> snip
> 
> Wow! So you don't even tell your wife that you are unhappy about a lack of sex, all while your actions show you are fine with a lack of sex.
> Snip
> ...


I have told her very clearly exactly what the issue is. She may choose to believe it is not as important as I said it was, or maybe it is something she is simply unable to do. Beyond what I have said, the next step is divorce - I am not going to threaten divorce. I very nearly divorced her over it 7 years ago - but didn't quite get as far as saying the words - since form there, there is no return. Sex did get better for a while - but when it failed again it was clear that she was having sex out of fear of my leaving, not out of desire. I do not want sex under threat - I'll hire call girls first, at least they are happy with the arrangement.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

uhtred said:


> I complain about the reliability issues with my 50 year old airplane,


I sense a thread jack thread. Do tell C172, PA28 or more exotic?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I have told her very clearly exactly what the issue is. She may choose to believe it is not as important as I said it was, or maybe it is something she is simply unable to do. Beyond what I have said, the next step is divorce - I am not going to threaten divorce. I very nearly divorced her over it 7 years ago - but didn't quite get as far as saying the words - since form there, there is no return. Sex did get better for a while - but when it failed again it was clear that she was having sex out of fear of my leaving, not out of desire. I do not want sex under threat - I'll hire call girls first, at least they are happy with the arrangement.


You're content with your marriage 95% of the time; but, the 5% you're not is making you miserable? Is it truly? Or, do you just want to occasionally remind people that you're actually miserable so don't mistake the smile on your face for contentment?

You're obviously not seeking advice so is it merely attention you want? Your wife hears you loud and clear - you're still there and have no intention of going anywhere - that is exactly what she hears. She may even be a little tired of your whining. You are the one who isn't hearing her.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

To a more interesting topic I think. Its an old Baron. Not surprisingly spends a lot more time in the shop hanger than in mine. 



CharlieParker said:


> I sense a thread jack thread. Do tell C172, PA28 or more exotic?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Actually this conversation is interesting due to how differently other people view marriage and sex. (its also been thread-jacked, my original post really was intended to be much more generic).

So yes, marriage is good 95% of the time, but the 5% missing is important. 

I really don't whine. Haven't asked her for sex in a very long time - sex for her is only when she wants it. 






Blondilocks said:


> You're content with your marriage 95% of the time; but, the 5% you're not is making you miserable? Is it truly? Or, do you just want to occasionally remind people that you're actually miserable so don't mistake the smile on your face for contentment?
> 
> You're obviously not seeking advice so is it merely attention you want? Your wife hears you loud and clear - you're still there and have no intention of going anywhere - that is exactly what she hears. She may even be a little tired of your whining. You are the one who isn't hearing her.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

The transmission in my truck is only 5% of the total truck... but without the transmission, the truck is going nowhere. 

But hey, it'd still look mighty nice sitting in the driveway.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

CharlieParker said:


> I sense a thread jack thread. Do tell C172, PA28 or more exotic?


Hey,
I had dependability issues with one of my old bass boats' motor. 

Until I made the commitment to rebuild it, labor and materials, and a clear communication to it that should it keep acting up I would trade it in for a different model.

It straightened out, we had another good 10 years 😊😊.

My apologies, would this be a thread jack?

(hanging head)


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

I had a therapist explain a bit of reality to me. (He said it in a way that was non-threatening...just a way to help me not be worrisome about the way the world works)

"People are in their own little world."

...meaning, all of us are caught up in our own set of thoughts most of the time. Learning to listen to other people not only by their words but their body language, with at least a modicum of compassion, we can experience a lot more in relationship. Throw in a sprinkle of selfless love and our life takes on a different experience.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

uhtred said:


> I have told her very clearly exactly what the issue is. She may choose to believe it is not as important as I said it was, or maybe it is something she is simply unable to do. Beyond what I have said, the next step is divorce - I am not going to threaten divorce. I very nearly divorced her over it 7 years ago - but didn't quite get as far as saying the words - since form there, there is no return. Sex did get better for a while - but when it failed again it was clear that she was having sex out of fear of my leaving, not out of desire. I do not want sex under threat - I'll hire call girls first, at least they are happy with the arrangement.


So.. you were on the verge of divorcing her and you never even told her this? Is this correct? Or did she know you had a foot out the door so ramped up the sex to keep you there? You showed her right here that you were full of crap that you would divorce over this, she successfully called your bluff. Now she knows that all you are is a blowhard who isn't going anywhere. So if you are making the conscious decision to stay and leave things as they are, what exactly is it you are complaining about? 

BTW she cant listen if you don't talk.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

On a serious note. 

When I want to be able to look back and know I've been clear in a talk with dear W, I include the statement "dear I need to know I'm saying this in the best way I can, because I need to know you're understanding what I'm saying so i know I'm saying what you're hearing".

Everytime. And vice-versa. 

This is one pattern we've worked out over the years. It can be any number of topics, not just those with any negative connotations. 

I never say if you don't do this/that then I'm going to do this/that, btw.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I started the conversation that was going to end in a few minutes with "so I want a divorce". She may have recognized how serious I was because that time she said she would fix our sex life, and did so - for about 2 months. She gave the impression of enjoying an active sex life

I pointed out the temporary fix to her and she fixed again - for a month. Another discussion, another temporary fix. 

So I conclude that if she fears I will leave, she will have sex to keep me, but that given her actions, it is not something she actually wants, and was just pretending to enjoy. Since I don't want sex under threat, that avenue is closed. 

Not that I was not "threatening" divorce. I was just explaining, then leaving. Had I gotten to the divorce part, it would have been over. We'd had milder forms of the conversation many times in the past, where she had dismissed my concerns as unimportant. 

What I will not do is say "if we don't have sex X often, I will divorce you". That is too much like a threat to be palatable. to me. 




3Xnocharm said:


> So.. you were on the verge of divorcing her and you never even told her this? Is this correct? Or did she know you had a foot out the door so ramped up the sex to keep you there? You showed her right here that you were full of crap that you would divorce over this, she successfully called your bluff. Now she knows that all you are is a blowhard who isn't going anywhere. So if you are making the conscious decision to stay and leave things as they are, what exactly is it you are complaining about?
> 
> BTW she cant listen if you don't talk.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

A different way to say this is, "If I don't eat, I will be hungry."
or, "If I don't have regular enthusiastic sex, I will be unhappy."
or, "If I don't have x amount of sex I will become emotionally detached."

These are not threats, they are just pointing out what should have been obvious.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Did that long ago. 

This is why I started this thread - she just doesn't get it. She hears the words but simply doesn't believe them / grok them, whatever. Since sex has no importance to her, she simply cannot imagine it has any importance to anyone else. 

That is why I've wondered - maybe clothing is deeply important to her. Maybe its not a trivial thing, but that I could greatly improve her life if I dressed better. (seems trivial to me - but that doesn't mean its trivial to her)






Mr. Nail said:


> A different way to say this is, "If I don't eat, I will be hungry."
> or, "If I don't have regular enthusiastic sex, I will be unhappy."
> or, "If I don't have x amount of sex I will become emotionally detached."
> 
> These are not threats, they are just pointing out what should have been obvious.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Did that long ago.
> 
> This is why I started this thread - she just doesn't get it. She hears the words but simply doesn't believe them / grok them, whatever. Since sex has no importance to her, she simply cannot imagine it has any importance to anyone else.
> 
> That is why I've wondered - maybe clothing is deeply important to her. Maybe its not a trivial thing, but that I could greatly improve her life if I dressed better. (seems trivial to me - but that doesn't mean its trivial to her)


She may like it a lot and have much fonder feelings for you (added attractiveness does that to people), but she would still be asexual.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Did that long ago.
> 
> This is why I started this thread - she just doesn't get it. She hears the words but simply doesn't believe them / grok them, whatever. Since sex has no importance to her, she simply cannot imagine it has any importance to anyone else.
> 
> That is why I've wondered - maybe clothing is deeply important to her. Maybe its not a trivial thing, but that I could greatly improve her life if I dressed better. (seems trivial to me - but that doesn't mean its trivial to her)


Want to find out? Ask her to buy you a shirt of her choosing and wear it only for her. Because you probably wouldn't want to be caught dead in it at work. Watch her behavior. 

I sincerely doubt you dressing to her standards would greatly improve her life. And, if it did, holy cow!


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes. 
I wouldn't do it to get more sex, but just to make her happy. 



Faithful Wife said:


> She may like it a lot and have much fonder feelings for you (added attractiveness does that to people), but she would still be asexual.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I already do that to some extent. What she wants me to wear isn't awful, just not the style I normally wear. Heck it would probably get me more attention from women at work - which might not be a good thing...... 

Mostly its been laziness on my part. I tend to wear old, somewhat worn clothes because I don't want to take the time to shop more often. (but I should).







Blondilocks said:


> Want to find out? Ask her to buy you a shirt of her choosing and wear it only for her. Because you probably wouldn't want to be caught dead in it at work. Watch her behavior.
> 
> I sincerely doubt you dressing to her standards would greatly improve her life. And, if it did, holy cow!


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I already do that to some extent. What she wants me to wear isn't awful, just not the style I normally wear. Heck it would probably get me more attention from women at work - which might not be a good thing......
> 
> Mostly its been laziness on my part. I tend to wear old, somewhat worn clothes because I don't want to take the time to shop more often. (but I should).


Find your style, brand and size in that brand and then order on-line. Easiest shopping ever.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

A nicely dressed, well-groomed man exudes confidence, which is attractive in every way. It doesn't have to be fancy but clean and neat with combed hair and trimmed facial hair really matters to women. The opposite is a total turn off.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> A nicely dressed, well-groomed man exudes confidence, which is attractive in every way. It doesn't have to be fancy but clean and neat with combed hair and trimmed facial hair really matters to women. The opposite is a total turn off.



My woman loves my beard. In fact when I rub my face around her neck and other regions, she melts. Just sayin...


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Did that long ago.
> 
> This is why I started this thread - she just doesn't get it. She hears the words but simply doesn't believe them / grok them, whatever. Since sex has no importance to her, she simply cannot imagine it has any importance to anyone else.


While-ever there is an extraordinary difference between your word and actual actions, of course she won't believe your words.

Why do you think she ought to believe your words, when they are incongruent with your actions?

Seriously you are the architect of your own problems.

If you want different outcomes, you would do well to ensure your rhetoric matches your behaviour.

I encourage you to tell your wife, you are fine with not having much if any sex at all. Then following that make peace with yourself, since that has been your choice all along.

Then going forward, it will be a lot easier for the both of you, if your words match your behaviour.

Isn't it about time you finally afford your wife the decency, of having your words match your actions?

When will you grok the fact, that you are the elephant in the room?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Did that long ago.
> 
> This is why I started this thread - she just doesn't get it. She hears the words but simply doesn't believe them / grok them, whatever. Since sex has no importance to her, she simply cannot imagine it has any importance to anyone else.
> 
> That is why I've wondered - maybe clothing is deeply important to her. Maybe its not a trivial thing, but that I could greatly improve her life if I dressed better. (seems trivial to me - but that doesn't mean its trivial to her)


No @uhtred , she does get it, she does not care because she thinks, and she is right, that you will stay in a sexless marriage. She does not care. She knows you are a weak man that will not leave her. 

And since she is not in love with you, and is not sexually attracted to you she does not have sex with you. 

At some point, you simply must admit the truth and move on...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Double post for some reason...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> People talk to me - maybe more than they should, so I get an interesting view of relationships sometimes. It seems so common that someone will try again and again to to explain to their partner about a problem with the marriage, and the partner will seem unable to hear / accept / believe in the issue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Because words don’t seem to mean much. Nor do people always believe that they mean what they say. A lot of crap can get said in a marriage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Ughhhh....foot message...why all the jumping through hoops for sex? Thats not even foreplay, thats like a sex tax.




Haha, not if it’s going to turn into a foot job  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> But what are the options? I can divorce. I can threaten to divorce unless we have regular sex. I can start a transactional relationship where I trade sex for other favors.
> 
> 
> 
> The first is not unreasonable but all things considered, I think I'm happier married. The others are directly distasteful to me - I have no desire for sex with someone who doesn't desire me - I can buy that any time I want.



Well you could do what many people do and find someone more compatible (in all the areas that you value) and then it won’t be so difficult to leave. I’m not saying you should do it, just that that’s an option...
Unless the situation is unbearable, people don’t usually just leave; nobody wants to be alone. People will find it morally reprehensible but then they also find reasons to justify their actions retrospectively. It’s a self preservation instinct. And it usually wins over logic or morals. Not always, but a lot of the times.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Why do you believe that? Do you not believe asexuality exists and that there are people who can experience love but not sexual desire? There certainly are a lot of people who both claim to feel, and who act that way.

Sexual attraction and love are not perfectly linked together - otherwise prostitution wouldn't work. 

Not sure how you define "weak", but if it means "unwilling to break a vow and divorce my wife of 30 years, then I accept the label". Are you suggesting strength would be do to what makes me happy in the short term without caring about the harm to someone I love? 





BluesPower said:


> No @uhtred , she does get it, she does not care because she thinks, and she is right, that you will stay in a sexless marriage. She does not care. She knows you are a weak man that will not leave her.
> 
> And since she is not in love with you, and is not sexually attracted to you she does not have sex with you.
> 
> At some point, you simply must admit the truth and move on...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I have no fear of being alone if I leave. Really - that doesn't enter my consideration at all. A very good friend of mine just got divorced - she would be very happy to be in a relationship with me - and I with her, if I were not already married. Its not about *me*. 



inmyprime said:


> Well you could do what many people do and find someone more compatible (in all the areas that you value) and then it won’t be so difficult to leave. I’m not saying you should do it, just that that’s an option...
> Unless the situation is unbearable, people don’t usually just leave; nobody wants to be alone. People will find it morally reprehensible but then they also find reasons to justify their actions retrospectively. It’s a self preservation instinct. And it usually wins over logic or morals. Not always, but a lot of the times.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Beyond words, the next step is divorce. Or are you suggesting that I stop doing the dishes if she doesn't have sex with me? 

What else is there that I can do to match my words? I can act in ways to make her unhappy unless she has sex with me. That will result in us both being unhappy. Better to leave. 




Personal said:


> While-ever there is an extraordinary difference between your word and actual actions, of course she won't believe your words.
> 
> Why do you think she ought to believe your words, when they are incongruent with your actions?
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

This is an entertaining conversation, but I'm once again out of the country so responses may be very delayed. (at least this time I'm somewhere with 24 hour internet).


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I have no fear of being alone if I leave. Really - that doesn't enter my consideration at all. A very good friend of mine just got divorced - she would be very happy to be in a relationship with me - and I with her, if I were not already married. Its not about *me*.


What does your wife think of your very good friend? Is she aware of just how very good friends you two are? Are you having an emotional affair with your very good friend? Tell us about this friendship.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Why do you believe that? Do you not believe asexuality exists and that there are people who can experience love but not sexual desire? There certainly are a lot of people who both claim to feel, and who act that way.
> 
> Sexual attraction and love are not perfectly linked together - otherwise prostitution wouldn't work.
> 
> Not sure how you define "weak", but if it means "unwilling to break a vow and divorce my wife of 30 years, then I accept the label". Are you suggesting strength would be do to what makes me happy in the short term without caring about the harm to someone I love?


Listen, if she is asexual, then she should have never married. And look, it is past time that you admit that you are miserable and you know it. 

Please don't tell me about strength, I have live through was worse **** than you have with your "Asexual" wife. 

Look, maybe she is asexual, because it is a real thing. But it is more rare than any other type of homosexuality, or frankly anything else. It is about the most rare "sexual" thing that happens. 

I am not saying that she does not love you like a brother, I am saying that she does not love you like a husband should be loved. She has no sexual attraction to you, at all. 

Did a doctor tell you she was asexual, is that how you know? 

Listen, if you are happy being celibate that is your right. Now if she is asexual, you will never ever have any type of normal sexual relationships with her, ever. 

If sex matters to you, at all, the your only choice to divorce or have an open relationship, which I do not think you are capable of doing. 

I will leave you be now. I really don't think there is anything that anyone can say that will help you in your situation. 

I do wish you well though...


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Beyond words, the next step is divorce. Or are you suggesting that I stop doing the dishes if she doesn't have sex with me?
> 
> What else is there that I can do to match my words? I can act in ways to make her unhappy unless she has sex with me. That will result in us both being unhappy. Better to leave.


I'm not suggesting you match your words at all.

I am suggesting that you make your words match your actions.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

@uhtred my wife has suggested I explain it to you in a different way since you aren't getting what I am saying.

So here goes.

After all this time despite your words claiming dissatisfaction with your sex life. Your actions have shown you are not willing to end your relationship over it, so it isn't a big deal to you.

Given that you are unwilling to leave, or find sex elsewhere while staying. I think it would be better for you and your wife to reconcile your acceptance of your sex life. Stop complaining about it to your wife, stop complaining about it to others, and stop telling yourself it matters to you, while your actions tell everyone else you are okay with it as it is.

By doing this you can make peace with yourself, by being more honest with yourself and others. While this should also bring some comfort to your wife as well.

I'm trying to tell you to stop fighting yourself and embrace who you actually are, as shown by your behaviour and not your words.

Since you behaviour already shows you accept your situation, I think it would bring you peace to change your words to match your behaviour.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I stopped complaining to my wife years ago when I realized it would never change.

To me ending a marriage is a huge deal - a violation of vows etc - so I can be extremely dissatisfied with something, but still not willing to do that. Its not like buying a new car if the old one isn't running well. 

This site is the only place I complain. 




Personal said:


> @uhtred my wife has suggested I explain it to you in a different way since you aren't getting what I am saying.
> 
> So here goes.
> 
> ...


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

uhtred said:


> I stopped complaining to my wife years ago when I realized it would never change.


Do you realise you keep contradicting yourself over and over in these forums. For there are times you say you keep telling her, yet here you are at other times saying you stopped telling her.

And on and on.

Surely by now you must be pretty dizzy, after spinning around in circles as often as you do.



uhtred said:


> To me ending a marriage is a huge deal - a violation of vows etc - so I can be extremely dissatisfied with something, but still not willing to do that. Its not like buying a new car if the old one isn't running well.
> 
> This site is the only place I complain.


If honour really mattered to you and it wasn't just an excuse to hide behind, you wouldn't complain anywhere about it at all.

For you would stand up and own your choices honestly, without whingeing about it to no end.

As someone who talks of not violating their vows, it is a bit rich when you entertain fantasies of being with another woman, that you invest yourself in emotionally and intimately with. All while you ignore answering those questions, when people call you out on it.

You carry on about honour, integrity and your obligations to your vows, yet you live a lie, by being a man who wishes he never married his wife.

It is moral cowardice to hide behind the claim that you won't divorce your wife because it would hurt her, while you play husband, while wishing you never married her while entertaining thoughts of being with another woman you have a reciprocal romantic emotional investment in.

What a monstrous thing that is.

Knowing how monstrous it is, I can understand you trying to salve yourself by living a lie.

I hope for your wife's sake that one day, you will take a look in a mirror. So that you can see how transparent you are.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

> Re: Why is it so hard to hear what your spouse is saying?


Because your spouse might be full of ****?

If a spouse babbles nonsense, then why would they ever expect to be listened to or heard? :scratchhead:

For example:-

I arrived home from work, after a particularly stressful day, to find my wife in a bit of a rage.

She spent an hour and a half telling me how horrible a particular friend of hers was being.

Eventually I said: "If xxxxx is being so horrible, tell her to **** off! Don't allow her to be in your life!"

Then I got: "I know your game! You hate xxxxx because she is my friend! And the reason you don't want her in my life is because you don't want me to have any friends! You are a control freak!" :wtf:

It then degenerated into a general rant about how nasty I was, how vile my family members were, etc., etc.

She then suddenly switched characters, became "nice", smiled at me and said: "What do you want for your evening meal?"

And this evening she said: "I want to go to the pub and we can drink a couple of pints."

Although I'd settled down for an evening in I said: "OK, let's go."

Half way there, she started ranting about not wanting to waste money on going to the pub. "And you are drinking too much!" (That's not true, it's her skewed perspective)

When I said: "But it was your idea!" she said: "Well, yes, but I never expected you to take me up on it!"

I then said: "Right. We'll go home, now" and we did.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

From what I can remember, the women in my life would get angry and get it off their chest before doing something. They liked to talk about it and sometimes, would turn that anger on the one they were talking with to my consternation. My guess is, they felt like they could do that with the one they were talking with, but not the one who made them angry. Eventually, if it got too terrible, they would tell off the person who made them angry, but by that time, their feelings had changed about the person. Their friendship wouldn't be the same.

However, this venting seems to be just that. They actually do something, though it is usually much less straightforward than it would have been, had they not vented first. 

Who knows for sure? Just my best guess.


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