# Newlywed, Wife confessed



## happydan

Wife and I have been happily married just over one year. And happily together for 7.

She has been stressed out lately studying, for the tough CPA exam. She has been spending a lot of time lately with P, a male friend, who also is studying for the exam. Lately, they probably have been spending more time together than her and I, or at least equal amounts of time.

Today she came to me and admitted she kissed P last week, and yesterday, told P she liked him. P said he didn’t feel the same way back, but was still attracted to her. There was more kissing and she ‘went down on him’ but stopped “because it felt wrong". 
I don’t know what to do. I feel this only happened because of all the time they were spending together, she would have never cheated otherwise. But it worries me she so weak-willingly broke down to do something with someone else. It also worries me that it seems she only stopped because he didn’t like her back in the same way.

I respect that she told me immediately. I do think without their time together it would not have happened. But I can’t just ignore what happened. Any advice?


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## TDSC60

Married only a year.

Is attracted to study partner.

Goes down on him - then stopped (yeah sure she did).

Your wife has zero respect for you as her husband and zero respect for the marriage. Do not try to blame the time they spend together as a reason for her to cheat. I'm betting they have had full blown sex and if they didn't, it was not because she didn't try.

People can be attracted to members of the opposite sex and have the boundaries and respect for their spouse not to act on the attraction.

If you stay married to this woman you are in for a world of hurt in the future. You are young - get out while you can.

Edit: Eventually she may have a job working in a CPA firm. Lots of good looking males that she will spend time around even more than she is with you. Work place affairs are very common and your wife has shown is is ready, and willing to jump the marriage boundaries.


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## Complexity

happydan said:


> But it worries me she so weak-willingly broke down to do something with someone else. It also worries me that it seems she only stopped because he didn’t like her back in the same way


This is the main issue here. How someone in one year can erase the previous 7. Your wife should have more worth for you, it doesn't matter how much time you spent apart.


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## keko

Since she confessed by herself Im guessing its much more then just kissing and going down, more likely full-on sex multiple times.


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## bandit.45

They had sex. And this was probably not the first time. 

Divorce her and get away from her before you have children.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

If she is truly serious about regaining your trust and saving the marriage, then she's going to have to end her relationship with P FOREVER. Once she crossed the line, whatever friendship there was, ended right then and there. She must write a NC (no contact) letter to P, which you will help to deliver, in which she tells him that she is ending all contact with him because what she did was cruel, selfish and hurtful to the man who loves her more than anybody in the world, you her husband. The NC letter should state very clearly that P should NEVER contact her again.

Second thing is that she needs to seek professional counseling to help her find out what inner void caused her to seek out sex with a man who was not her husband. If she doesn't addressed and resolve it, then it will be a matter of time when she will meet another man and start another affair.


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## canttrustu

bandit.45 said:


> They had sex. And this was probably not the first time.
> 
> Divorce her and get away from her before you have children.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


and THIS is the 'kinder, gentler Bandit'


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## rrrbbbttt

bandit.45 said:


> They had sex. And this was probably not the first time.
> 
> Divorce her and get away from her before you have children.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree: As the Jack said " You can't handle the truth!" 

From everything I now if someone went down on you, You had sex.

Also, them going down on you was the coup de grace. 

ERGO: They had SEX!


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## NewM

Divorce her while its still early,it will happen again if you don't and it will be harder if you get kids.


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## IndiaInk

Do you feel like she respects you?

Because while total honesty is always appreciated...I'm sort of amazed that she admitted that things didn't go farther because the other guy wasn't receptive...

That says _something_ about her and her dynamic with you...and not a good _something_

(or perhaps she's very un-empathetic and doesn't see how that makes her confession even more offensive)


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## survivorwife

happydan said:


> Wife and I have been happily married just over one year. And happily together for 7.
> 
> She has been stressed out lately studying, for the tough CPA exam. She has been spending a lot of time lately with P, a male friend, who also is studying for the exam. Lately, they probably have been spending more time together than her and I, or at least equal amounts of time.
> 
> Today she came to me and admitted she kissed P last week, and yesterday, told P she liked him. P said he didn’t feel the same way back, but was still attracted to her. There was more kissing and she ‘went down on him’ but stopped “because it felt wrong".
> I don’t know what to do. I feel this only happened because of all the time they were spending together, she would have never cheated otherwise. But it worries me she so weak-willingly broke down to do something with someone else. It also worries me that it seems she only stopped because he didn’t like her back in the same way.
> 
> I respect that she told me immediately. I do think without their time together it would not have happened. But I can’t just ignore what happened. Any advice?


Any idea why she picked that particular point in time to tell you this story? In other words, was there a point she was trying to make?


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## warlock07

They most likely had sex. She did not tell you because she did not want to hurt you further. 

You are also 2nd choice to P now. He rejected her but you are taking her back after she cheated on you.

And why is ok to have an affair with someone you spend a lot of time with, especially when you are married? Not a good excuse.


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## happyman64

HappyDan,

You are no longer happy and I do not blame you one bit.

It is good that your wife came clean right away but you only know half the story.

And Mori is right, she is very likely to do it again if her boundary issues are not addressed.

Not only did she show such horrible judgement but she has shown such disrespect towards you and your marriage.

I would seriously question any woman that would do this to a loyal spouse, not just because you are a newlywed but because you have known each other for 7 years.

You seriously need to evaluate your marriage because you obviously value it much more than your wife does.

And you do not know all the truth.......

Hm64


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## bandit.45

canttrustu said:


> and THIS is the 'kinder, gentler Bandit'


I'm a teddy bear with fangs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jnj express

time together may be a problem, cuz of close contact, but what happened to her boundaries

She knows she's married, or did she forget that little fact---One thing you need to know---if she truly, truly loved you---this would not have happened, no matter how much time was spent with him, she would not have cared

One year into a mge., and she is attracted toother men---you got a major problem

Why did she "out" herself---guilt, she was afraid, he was gonna rat her out

What have you done about this---CPA, exam or not--this takes precedence over everything

What have you done about it, and what is she doing about it

Tell us what her actions toward you, are at this point, is she doing anything to keep the mge---why and how did she tell you--all this info, will help us to give you the best available advice.


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## Will_Kane

Did she say why she cheated? Did she try to blame you for it?

Is P married?

Does she still study with P or have any contact with P?

How does she know P?

Have you checked her cell phone/emails to see the frequency of contact and what was said? Does she delete these messages for him or for everyone?

Cheaters lie. Cheaters also minimize. Many times, if they say they kissed one time, you later find out that they had sex five times. Until she starts to earn your trust back, treat everythng she says as a lie unless it is supported by actions.

You seem way to soft on your wife, willing to explain away why she cheated on you.

Tell your wife you want her to handwrite a no contact letter to the other man, stating how horribly ashamed she is of her behavior, how terrible she feels for risking losing her marriage and her husband, who is the most important thing in the world to her, and stating that if the other man ever attempts to contact her again in any way, shape, or form, she will file harassment charges against him. She should give this letter to you so you can make sure she did not add or subtract anything from the content, then you mail it to the other man.

Tell your wife she must have no contact with the other man, ever. If he tries to contact her, she must not respond and must tell you about it immediately.

If other man is married or has a girlfriend, expose the affair to her. She deserves to know, and she can help you monitor that the affair has ended and hasn't started back up. Do not tell your wife you are doing this. If the affair is over and your wife has severed all contact, she should not find out. If your wife finds out and blows up at you, tell her you are fighting for her and fighting to save your marriage.

Tell your wife she must give you access to all communication devices and accounts and should not delete any messages or browsing history, as well as let you know her whereabouts 24/7 until she earns your trust back.

Tell your wife that you cannot control her, you can only control yourself and what you are willing to accept or not accept in a marriage, and how you react to her actions.

Tell your wife if she does not agree to the conditions you need to heal from her affair, you will file for divorce. Then do it. Divorce is a long process and you can stop it if your wife later agrees to your conditions.

You are young and have no children. It is best if you find out now whether or not she is committed to staying loyal to you and your marriage.


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## Entropy3000

happydan said:


> Wife and I have been happily married just over one year. And happily together for 7.
> 
> She has been stressed out lately studying, for the tough CPA exam. She has been spending a lot of time lately with P, a male friend, who also is studying for the exam. Lately, they probably have been spending more time together than her and I, or at least equal amounts of time.
> 
> Today she came to me and admitted she kissed P last week, and yesterday, told P she liked him. P said he didn’t feel the same way back, but was still attracted to her. There was more kissing and she ‘went down on him’ but stopped “because it felt wrong".
> I don’t know what to do. I feel this only happened because of all the time they were spending together, she would have never cheated otherwise. But it worries me she so weak-willingly broke down to do something with someone else. It also worries me that it seems she only stopped because he didn’t like her back in the same way.
> 
> I respect that she told me immediately. I do think without their time together it would not have happened. But I can’t just ignore what happened. Any advice?


No kids .... move on before you have them.


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## the guy

I'm sure there will be kids...in about nine months!!!!!!

Has NC been confirmed? or is she still incontact with OM?

Have you confronted OM to get his side of the "event that occured"?

What is she doing now to affair proof her marriage?

Until OM is completely out of the picture and she faces the consequences for her actions it will continue, maybe not with the current OM but down the road she will cheat again unless she does the preventive maintenence for her self to be a better human being.

Often the 1st A is not addressed effectively and often sweep under the carpet. So its real important that you guys get this crap in check and face this painful issue.


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## happydan

jnj express said:


> time together may be a problem, cuz of close contact, but what happened to her boundaries
> 
> She knows she's married, or did she forget that little fact---One thing you need to know---if she truly, truly loved you---this would not have happened, no matter how much time was spent with him, she would not have cared
> 
> One year into a mge., and she is attracted toother men---you got a major problem
> 
> Why did she "out" herself---guilt, she was afraid, he was gonna rat her out
> 
> What have you done about this---CPA, exam or not--this takes precedence over everything
> 
> What have you done about it, and what is she doing about it
> 
> Tell us what her actions toward you, are at this point, is she doing anything to keep the mge---why and how did she tell you--all this info, will help us to give you the best available advice.



She outted herself from guilt. She felt horrible and had to tell me. I think that's the truth, and there aren't other motives there.

Also, for everyone saying she probably went further, or did so multiple times, I believe that is not the case. My wife is an awful verbal liar, I've always been able to tell if she's holding more back then she is letting on. When she was done confessing, I pressed her for more, but there wasn't really anything else she to say. For sake of discussion, I'd like to treat this, for now, as if she was telling the truth when she confessed to me.

As far as what I've/She's done about it, nothing really. This just happened today. I've barely had time to digest what happened. We spoke about it for a little while, I stayed home for a few hours, but eventually had to leave our apartment, go for walk, and am typing this from a library....

She's just giving me space right now. When I wanted to ask her questions, she answered them (I believe honestly). I wanted to be given space, she let me go for a walk. Again, it just happened, so I don't have much more to say, on that.


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## the guy

I understand and do not make any hasty disicions. Once your head clears (in about 3 days) you can start to think.
I mean in 3 days you will still be scerwed and it will be fresh and raw but the shock will have settled just enough to think.

As far as eating goes, it may take the same amount of time and even at best it will be a little here and there.


I sugest you go get you favorite food at your favorite resturant and take it to go, then you can take little bites here and there. 

My point to all this is right now you need to take care of your self and once the shaking goes away and the nuasia subsides you then can start to fix this crap....with or with out your chick.


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## happydan

Will_Kane said:


> Did she say why she cheated? Did she try to blame you for it?
> 
> Is P married?
> 
> Does she still study with P or have any contact with P?
> 
> How does she know P?
> 
> Have you checked her cell phone/emails to see the frequency of contact and what was said? Does she delete these messages for him or for everyone?


P is not married. She met him only months ago, through a friend, then started studying together.

In her e-mail/text messages to and from him, they are all pretty bland. Normal "when are we meeting to study next" and such. No smiley faces, dirty talk or anything. I'd be surprised if she deleted any messages. It's not like she hid that they were going out so much either, I always knew about it. It was innocent enough, just studying, until what happened yesterday. 

She is willing to break off all contact with P, if we want to work things out.


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## the guy

Btw...stay away from the booze, that depresent will kick your butt at a time like this so again take care and eat.

Working out and lifting helped me out alot in the first days of my discovery....d-day was 2-1/2 years ago and were having a dam good R.


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## the guy

So if you don't want to work things out she is going back with P????


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

Was she taking any study drugs, excessive caffeine, lack of sleep, under a large amount of stress? All of these can contribute to lack of judgement and inhibition. Not saying it's right, but it adds to opportunity to create a very bad environment with impaired inhabitants. Smart people learn to understand how their bodies and minds are affected by these factors, and to manage them better.


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## Entropy3000

happydan said:


> P is not married. She met him only months ago, through a friend, then started studying together.
> 
> In her e-mail/text messages to and from him, they are all pretty bland. Normal "when are we meeting to study next" and such. No smiley faces, dirty talk or anything. I'd be surprised if she deleted any messages. *It's not like she hid that they were going out so much either, I always knew about it. It was innocent enough, just studying, until what happened yesterday. *
> 
> She is willing to break off all contact with P, if we want to work things out.


She owns her affair no doubt. However, there was nothing innocent about this. Anytime you have a man and a woman spending quality time with each other there is a huge risk. When you put a man and a women into an intense situation like on work projects or studying like this you have an even greater risk of bonding and what has happened.

Studying together like this is not something I would suggest people do. You will get this type of result often. You may not know about it though. Yes this could happen with a married man but with a single guy? Forget about it. This just ups the ante even further. 

So this was not a good idea. This is another example of what some think is innocent but is really just a very bad idea.

Boundaries.


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## happydan

IndiaInk said:


> Do you feel like she respects you?
> 
> Because while total honesty is always appreciated...I'm sort of amazed that she admitted that things didn't go farther because the other guy wasn't receptive...
> 
> That says _something_ about her and her dynamic with you...and not a good _something_
> 
> (or perhaps she's very un-empathetic and doesn't see how that makes her confession even more offensive)


Yes, up until this point, we've never really had any major issues in our relationship, and always have been respectful of each other. I know what she said sounds (and is) offensive, but I think it was said with the intention of being totally open about her actions *and* feelings about that night, and to put it all out there.



survivorwife said:


> Any idea why she picked that particular point in time to tell you this story? In other words, was there a point she was trying to make?


I think she guilted herself into telling me the soonest she could.


BTW - thanks for all the responses, I really appreciate it!


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## Entropy3000

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> Was she taking any study drugs, excessive caffeine, lack of sleep, under a large amount of stress? All of these can contribute to lack of judgement and inhibition. Not saying it's right, but it adds to opportunity to create a very bad environment with impaired inhabitants. Smart people learn to understand how their bodies and minds are affected by these factors, and to manage them better.


You are correct. This was an intense environment with all of this. This is where EAs breed.

She should have not had this guy as a study partner. The outcome is very predictable.

OP, this decision is on her, but I hope you come away with this with a better appreciation of how this can happen. It is not uncommon. In particualr she has proved she cannot handle male friends and in particualr male study partners. Yes, once she is a CPA she will be the young woman on the block and she will be tested again and again by her co-wrokers to be sure. She will have no doubt long sessions with other men in her career. She better find some boundaries fast.


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## MEM2020

The question isn't: why did it turn sexual but rather why did she knowingly pursue him for months? Why is she looking to upgrade? And my guess: the two of you consistently put her needs ahead of yours. Read: no more mr. Nice guy.


UOTE=happydan;872777]Yes, up until this point, we've never really had any major issues in our relationship, and always have been respectful of each other. I know what she said sounds (and is) offensive, but I think it was said with the intention of being totally open about her actions *and* feelings about that night, and to put it all out there.



I think she guilted herself into telling me the soonest she could.


BTW - thanks for all the responses, I really appreciate it![/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Remains

warlock07 said:


> They most likely had sex. She did not tell you because she did not want to hurt you further.


If she had had sex she either would not have told u she went down on him, they just kissed, or she wouldn't have told u at all. No way would she offer that info herself and say she went down on him if she was sugar coating it. No way. Giving another man a BJ is not sugar coating when offering information. Especially when it is info you would never find out otherwise.

Plenty of BJs have been given with no intercourse involved!

I would be worried more about the lax moral boundary and the fact that she wanted him. She wanted him while married to you. Seems she doesn't love u in the 'forever' sense. Let her go so she can be happy elsewhere, and in turn so you can too. This is not a forever marriage, it is one made from habit. Unless of course she is kissing your ass right now, doing anything and all for you and offering her life and soul to you. In which case it was a naive and stupid and juvenile mistake. Only you know which. Good luck.


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## Entropy3000

Remains said:


> If she had had sex she either would not have told u she went down on him, they just kissed, or she wouldn't have told u at all. No way would she offer that info herself and say she went down on him if she was sugar coating it. No way. Giving another man a BJ is not sugar coating when offering information. Especially when it is info you would never find out otherwise.
> 
> Plenty of BJs have been given with no intercourse involved!
> 
> I would be worried more about the lax moral boundary and the fact that she wanted him. She wanted him while married to you. Seems she doesn't love u in the 'forever' sense. Let her go so she can be happy elsewhere, and in turn so you can too. This is not a forever marriage, it is one made from habit. Unless of course she is kissing your ass right now, doing anything and all for you and offering her life and soul to you. In which case it was a naive and stupid and juvenile mistake. Only you know which. Good luck.


Like it is not cheating to give a BJ. It is likely there was more to this. But, that said, how is her giving a BJ to this guy ok?

Of course it is not. So does the OP need more information than he has?


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## WorkingOnMe

It's weird. I can almost feel you rug sweeping this. No consequences. You'll be a doormat for the rest of your life.


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## MEM2020

Dan,
For the sake of your marriage: go buy "no more mr. Nice guy". Your wife felt guilty but not fearful in telling you.  She should have felt fear - not of violence - of consequence. Read the book and you will know why. After that you will want to read "married man sex life" by Athol Kay.

If you simply put this behind you - you are toast.


UOTE=happydan;872742]She outted herself from guilt. She felt horrible and had to tell me. I think that's the truth, and there aren't other motives there.

Also, for everyone saying she probably went further, or did so multiple times, I believe that is not the case. My wife is an awful verbal liar, I've always been able to tell if she's holding more back then she is letting on. When she was done confessing, I pressed her for more, but there wasn't really anything else she to say. For sake of discussion, I'd like to treat this, for now, as if she was telling the truth when she confessed to me.

As far as what I've/She's done about it, nothing really. This just happened today. I've barely had time to digest what happened. We spoke about it for a little while, I stayed home for a few hours, but eventually had to leave our apartment, go for walk, and am typing this from a library....

She's just giving me space right now. When I wanted to ask her questions, she answered them (I believe honestly). I wanted to be given space, she let me go for a walk. Again, it just happened, so I don't have much more to say, on that.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fvstringpicker

Working, I don't think he'll be a doormat for the rest of his life; at least not for her. Its just a matter of time before she ditches him. After a year of marriage, she is already blowing the first guy she's alone with. (after telling him she likes him)

Happydan, I hate to put it like this but if you stay, I wouldn't suggest going down on her while this cat's still lurking in your neighborhood.


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## WorkingOnMe

I stand corrected. He'll be a doormatt until she tires of him. Then she'll dump him for an alpha while he pays alimony. Chump.


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## crossbar

happydan said:


> She is willing to break off all contact with P, *if *we want to work things out.



IF?!?!? So, what? If you decide to seperate then she would have no problem "studying" with the guy that broke up your marriage again? Yeah, that's straight up remorse right there!


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## jnj express

Hey Dan---there are gonna be many harsh responses, but they are all designed to wake you up

Your wife, is not the wonderful innocent little goody, goody, who screwed up---SHE F'ING PURSUED THIS GUY-------he told her, I am not into this, and it happened anyway---well if he wasn't into it---how did it continue---CUZ SHE WANTED IT

Where did you fit in---you didn't---she didn't even think of you----you have major problems, with this woman

Let me tell you one year into a mge, the 2 spouses are lovebirds---they don's see anyone else, they don't even know any one else exists---they are to in love with each other----you, you got a so called wife, who pursued another man till she got what she wanted---she was the F'ing PUA

How is it gonna feel kissing her lips, knowing those lips took another man's tool inside them, you think its OK, that his tool was inside of her mouth----Yes I'm being graphic, cuz you need a dose of reality----are you ever really gonna wanna touch her lips, with your lips,---I would think it would be repugnant to you, but I am not you

When people seriously study, they do it in a group, not a 2some---a group expresses more ideas, works better---your wife---locked herself in,and it was what she wanted, cuz she wanted him---it wasn't a spur of the moment hot flash---she put you out of her mind, and she replaced you, with him, and had no problem doing it---is that what you signed on for, when you took vows?

You better think long and hard about what you are looking at here, and if you stay, whatever caused this, and whatever her thinking was/is, needs to be fixed

You can not take her back, with no accountability, and no repentance----she has violated you, in one of the worse ways possible---and it has to be dealt with, and there have to be consequences.


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## lovelygirl

happydan said:


> I think she guilted herself into telling me the soonest she could.


She didn't confess out of guilt.
*She confessed out of rejection*.
Hadn't she been rejected by the OM, the affair would have gone further and would be still going. 
She realized she had no chances with the OM so she decided to get back to you. So you were her back up plan.

Why do you want to get back with someone who is a _left over_ by the OM? 

Also, her spending too much time with the OM is not an excuse to develop affairs. Affairs are likely to happen in these situations but cannot be justified.


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## warlock07

Remains said:


> If she had had sex she either would not have told u she went down on him, they just kissed, or she wouldn't have told u at all. No way would she offer that info herself and say she went down on him if she was sugar coating it. No way. Giving another man a BJ is not sugar coating when offering information. Especially when it is info you would never find out otherwise.
> 
> Plenty of BJs have been given with no intercourse involved!
> 
> I would be worried more about the lax moral boundary and the fact that she wanted him. She wanted him while married to you. Seems she doesn't love u in the 'forever' sense. Let her go so she can be happy elsewhere, and in turn so you can too. This is not a forever marriage, it is one made from habit. Unless of course she is kissing your ass right now, doing anything and all for you and offering her life and soul to you. In which case it was a naive and stupid and juvenile mistake. Only you know which. Good luck.


Because cheaters are the most logical thinkers out there. To some, BJs are less intimate than sex. She could have reasoned it out in her own twisted mind that offering BJ is less worse than actually having sex. We won't know. But OP is not concerned about it right now. He believes that he got the full truth. 

OP, your wife did not make it physical because the other guy rejected her. The next guy may not be so kind. You might consider calling this guy and hash the details out.


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## lovelygirl

Also, I don't know why they had to study _together_.
I think they *didn't study at all* during that time. 
"Studying" was just her _excuse_ to stay with him and she has been totally fooling you all this time. 

She's been spending intimate/sexual time with him each time they've been together, alone. 

Books covered up for her infidelity.


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## snap

the guy said:


> So if you don't want to work things out she is going back with P????


This. 

She is soo not remorseful. It's just she deemed you a better choice. At this point of life.

(Well not even a better choice, seeing as her AP has dumped her)


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## Remains

I think the comment above by lovelygirl, and some of the comments here are far too cynical. She could be telling the truth, she might not be. Who cares. 

Basically, she has made it obvious she doesn't want OP in any kind of serious, no.1, totally besotted, totally in love, soul mate, happily married kinda way. She has made it clear you are 2nd best and that if it wasn't for his (OM) refusal of wanting more she would probably be packing her bags right now to move in with him. Her confession would involve separation and divorce rather than what it currently does. If you take her back, make sure you harden yourself and toughen up a bit. Be prepared. Be ready because it'll only be a matter of time before she does this again. And it'll only be a matter of time before she leaves you for someone else.


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## snap

happydan said:


> Also, for everyone saying she probably went further, or did so multiple times, I believe that is not the case. My wife is an awful verbal liar, I've always been able to tell if she's holding more back then she is letting on.


Like you were able to tell when she were cheating on you?

Had she not confessed, you'd be none the wiser.

Really you are not one to evaluate her lying skills. They are clearly adequate to fool you.


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## Remains

Entropy3000 said:


> Like it is not cheating to give a BJ. It is likely there was more to this. But, that said, how is her giving a BJ to this guy ok?
> 
> Of course it is not. So does the OP need more information than he has?


Giving a BJ is most definitely cheating. Totally gross IMO. Just as bad as intercourse. Not OK. I don't know how u got that idea from what I wrote entropy.

But...it has been known for BJs to occur without intercourse. OP will never really know I guess. Unless he can catch her out in the lie then he may as well not worry about that detail. The act and situation and implications are a much more serious matter and deserve some serious thought.

OP you would be a complete idiot if u took her back. I imagine u r quite a softy, desperately don't want to lose her, can't imagine life without her, and will take her back and hope for the best. You would be a fool if u did this, and she would not respect u. And so she would not respect u and she would not value u. Why? Because u are easy to keep. Easy come, easy go. She doesn't have to work hard for u. The harder u work for something, the more value u place on it and the more u treasure it and take care of it. Make her work hard for u. If she is not prepared to, u know exactly how she feels about u.


----------



## lovelygirl

Remains said:


> I think the comment above by lovelygirl, and some of the comments here are far too cynical. She could be telling the truth, she might not be. Who cares.
> 
> She has made it clear you are 2nd best and that if it wasn't for his (OM) refusal of wanting more she would probably be packing her bags right now to move in with him.


I don't know what's so cynical about my comments when you and me are saying the same thing in different words.


----------



## river rat

happydan said:


> Yes, up until this point, we've never really had any major issues in our relationship, and always have been respectful of each other. I know what she said sounds (and is) offensive, but I think it was said with the intention of being totally open about her actions *and* feelings about that night, and to put it all out there.


 HD, I had a mentor, when I was much younger and married only 6 mos, who advised marriage counseling. My response was, "Hey, I've been married only 6 mos. How much trouble could I be in?" He replied, " Son, you have no idea." And guess what? I have walked in your shoes. Your wife has some problems w/ her boundaries. If this is to work out at all, you both need to see a counselor to help you deal w/ these issues. I've been married for a long time to the same woman. For the most part it's been good; but some of it has been pure hell.


----------



## Fvstringpicker

jnj express said:


> How is it gonna feel kissing her lips, knowing those lips took another man's tool inside them, you think its OK, that his tool was inside of her mouth


Somebody needs to explain to me how a BJ is not just as bad or even worse than genital to genital sex.
But I can hear him now, "Hey baby, your kisses taste a little salty.
Have you been eating pop corn or studying for the CPA exam again?"


----------



## lordmayhem

happydan said:


> P is not married. She met him only months ago, through a friend, then started studying together.


How do you know he's not married or has a girl friend? Have you verified this personally or merely taken her word for it? Many cheaters often say the OW/OM is single, divorced, getting divorced, or that their BS doesn't care because they're having their own affair. This is so you won't bother finding out any more info about their AP.

Also, cheaters normally don't just confess an affair. Usually they're pushed into confessing by someone else. How do you know there isn't an Other Man's Wife/Girlfriend out there that didn't tell her to confess to you or the OMW/GF would expose the affair to you?



happydan said:


> In her e-mail/text messages to and from him, they are all pretty bland. Normal "when are we meeting to study next" and such. No smiley faces, dirty talk or anything. I'd be surprised if she deleted any messages. It's not like she hid that they were going out so much either, I always knew about it. It was innocent enough, just studying, until what happened yesterday.


You haven't mentioned how you found out about these emails. Did you find them on your own, or did she just show them to you? She could very well have deleted the incriminating ones.



happydan said:


> She is willing to break off all contact with P, if we want to work things out.


Now this is total fail. She DOESN'T get to bargain or set conditions. She cheated on you, the only problem is that you don't exactly know how much. She met up with this OM through a friend to study with? I don't think so. Likely somebody she met at school and they've been in a relationship for while. 

And I agree with snap. If she hadn't confessed to you, then you wouldn't have found out, which means she's able to lie to you and you believe her. So don't say that you're able to tell when she's verbally lying, or else you would have found out she was having an affair without her confessing it to you.


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

lordmayhem said:


> If she hadn't confessed to you, then you wouldn't have found out, which means she's able to lie to you and you believe her. So don't say that you're able to tell when she's verbally lying, or else you would have found out she was having an affair without her confessing it to you.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

It never ceases to amaze me how the betrayed spouse always claims that their partner is such a lousy liar. If this was the case, they wouldn't be on this forum lamenting their spouse's infidelity. 

(Don't feel bad HD, we all used to think that.)


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me how the betrayed spouse always claims that their partner is such a lousy liar. If this was the case, they wouldn't be on this forum lamenting their spouse's infidelity.
> 
> (Don't feel bad HD, we all used to think that.)


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

If P likes her then marriage of OP may have been history.......

Any way OP is the second best for her, but are you ready to settle for the second prize?


----------



## canttrustu

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me how the betrayed spouse always claims that their partner is such a lousy liar. If this was the case, they wouldn't be on this forum lamenting their spouse's infidelity.
> 
> (Don't feel bad HD, we all used to think that.)


The moment a WS enters an A-they become masters of manipulation and deception. Its like their blood changes chemically instantaneously. Its amazing. I used to believe I could tell when my H was lying- wrong. I now know he is a master when its necessary. Im just a good detective too now.


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## ArmyofJuan

happydan said:


> She outted herself from guilt. She felt horrible and had to tell me. I think that's the truth, and there aren't other motives there.


More likely she did it because he told her there's no future with him. He just wanted to hit it and quit it. 



> Also, for everyone saying she probably went further, or did so multiple times, I believe that is not the case. My wife is an awful verbal liar, I've always been able to tell if she's holding more back then she is letting on. When she was done confessing, I pressed her for more, but there wasn't really anything else she to say. For sake of discussion, I'd like to treat this, for now, as if she was telling the truth when she confessed to me.


Irrelevant, what she did was bad enough on its own and considering it happened within the first year of being married shows how little she respects marriage as a whole. What she has done is valid grounds for a divorce. The odds or this happening again in the future just jumped up exponentially. You will always have to watch your back from now on.



> As far as what I've/She's done about it, nothing really. This just happened today. I've barely had time to digest what happened. We spoke about it for a little while, I stayed home for a few hours, but eventually had to leave our apartment, go for walk, and am typing this from a library....


You'll go through the 5 stages of grief. Whatever you feel today will be different than what you feel a month from now so keep that in mind.

You need to get to the anger stage and process it asap. There's nothing like being in a R and everything seeming ok then one day you wake up and out of the blue kick her out of the house and file for a D because it took 6 months to get angry. This was my problem and what held me back was blaming myself for the A and trying to empathize with her. Once I realize it was all on her and I wasn’t to blame after all then things got easier. 

You will never be able to hurt her like she hurt you by doing this. Don't ever feel sorry for her, she did this out of selfishness, not because of anything you did.



> She's just giving me space right now. When I wanted to ask her questions, she answered them (I believe honestly). I wanted to be given space, she let me go for a walk. Again, it just happened, so I don't have much more to say, on that.


It'll take time for all this to sink in but let her know this may be the end of your marriage. Realistically this is a bad sign on what the future holds. Yea she confessed AFTER the OM sort of dumped her but why didn’t she say anything to you before it got that far? She did this because she WANTED to, there was no gun to her head, she wasn’t forced, she WANTED IT. That’s what you have to deal with.


----------



## Beelzebub

SO YOU ARE CONSIDERED THE LEFT OVER OR THE BACKUP PLAN.

LIKE OTHERS SAID WHEN SHE GET A GOOD JOB AND WALK TO HER NEW OFFICE FULL OF GUYS, SHE WILL BE SAYING EVERY MORNING WALKING THERE LIKE SPONGEBOB SQUARE PANTS:-
"IM READY, IM READY , IM READY"

if the other man didnt reject her, then she would have left you long ago or been beding him before you know. 
and I'm a man who had his share of dating and playing around let me tell you something, if she went down, then they have done everything


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## badbane

happy dan we are here to help. i am sure you want to beieve she stopped. but many on here are familiar with TT,trickle truth. 99 times out of a hundred after an A they will admit only part of the story. you need to keep pressing and don't back down until you are sure she has told you everything.
my logical problem here is if she and he admitted to liking each other, why would she stop? seriously ,telling him that she liked him , making out and fooling around( he had his hands all over your wife), and then after tons of foreplay she went down on him. then after all of that she suddenly had an epiphany? 

how likely is that story? 
keep pressing her i know you want to be over this but rug sweeping won't help. 
don't give her a pass.
please listen to us we have heard this all before. lurk around and see how man men/women are in your shoes that wish they could have handled this properly nd not make hasty decisions based on a screwed up perspective.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Speed

Ok.. so this is how it went?


Conversation:
Your wife: Hey, I really like you. Do you want to take it further?
Dude: Well, I don't have those feelings for you.
Your wife: Really? I thought that kiss meant something.
Dude: Nah, but I think you're hot. How about giving me a blowjob?
Your wife: OK!

Because everyone feels like giving the person who just rejected them a blowjob.....

I believe I may have a bridge you might be interested in...


----------



## AngryandUsed

OP,

Was she remorseful when she disclosed her kiss with P? And she disclosed the physical encounter, of her own.

She spent a lot of time with P, and lost control over herself. If you feel you can forgive her, why not try once?


----------



## Beelzebub

Speed said:


> Ok.. so this is how it went?
> 
> 
> Conversation:
> Your wife: Hey, I really like you. Do you want to take it further?
> Dude: Well, I don't have those feelings for you.
> Your wife: Really? I thought that kiss meant something.
> Dude: Nah, but I think you're hot. How about giving me a blowjob?
> Your wife: OK!
> 
> Because everyone feels like giving the person who just rejected them a blowjob.....
> 
> I believe I may have a bridge you might be interested in...


you cracked me up.

do you think that would happen in real life, it seems more like a play boy clip?


----------



## Berilo

HD,

As someone who has been recently in your (uncomfortable) shoes, I am compelled to weigh into the conversation.

Regrettably, I agree with the posters here who say that there is something irredeemably wrong with a spouse who cheats during their first year of marriage when everything was otherwise basically ok (no matter how long you dated beforehand -- if such spouse wasn't committed, s/he had a clear, recent chance not to move forward with the relationship).

You must resist the temptation to explain (or wish) it away: that is was a one-off, merely situational, a consequence of stress, a mistake, out-of-character, etc. The painful truth is that, if she loved you like she should have, she would never, ever have gotten herself into this situation. Period. End of story. Hecho. Finito.

And while her "confession" of the gory details at first seems to be a positive occurrence, it could be the exact opposite. As another poster has observed, to tell you she gave a BJ to someone who wasn't so interested in her is very cruel to you as a man: she is not only kicking you in the balls, she is cutting them off.

Only you will know what is best to do from here, and you will get lots of good perspectives on this site. Just be very careful not to fool yourself about her conduct, her capacity, and her intentions. You do not deserve this -- but you've got it now.

Best of luck.

- B.


----------



## Acabado

> My wife is an awful verbal liar, I've always been able to tell if she's holding more back then she is letting on. When she was done confessing, I pressed her for more, but there wasn't really anything else she to say. For sake of discussion, I'd like to treat this, for now, as if she was telling the truth when she confessed to me.


They *ALWAYS* minimize; It's human nature, we lie ourselves/others to appear in a better light, to protect our self image, the image we project into others, to control a certain outcome (testing how much a dealbreaker it is?)... She may not lie about the bare bone "facts" but the length or the depth of her emotional involvement, the premeditation, the first signs of atracttion (and therefore the deception), the continued attachment, the detachment from you, the full extent of the disaster... they always lie. Selfprotection trumps shame and guilt.
From wikipedia--->Deception
*Truth bias*
The truth bias significantly impairs the ability of relational partners to detect deception. In term of deception, a truth bias reflects a tendency to judge more messages as truths than lies, independent of their actual veracity.[5] When judging message veracity, the truth bias contributes to an overestimate of the actual number of truths relative to the base rate of actual truths. The truth bias is especially strong within close relationships. People are highly inclined to trust the communications of others and are unlikely to question the relational partner unless faced with a major deviation of behavior that forces a reevaluation. When attempting to detect deceit from a familiar person or relational partner, a large amount of information about the partner is brought to mind. This information essentially overwhelms the receiver's cognitive ability to detect and process any cues to deception. It is somewhat easier to detect deception in strangers, when less information about that person is brought to mind


----------



## Entropy3000

Remains said:


> Giving a BJ is most definitely cheating. Totally gross IMO. Just as bad as intercourse. Not OK. I don't know how u got that idea from what I wrote entropy.
> 
> But...it has been known for BJs to occur without intercourse. OP will never really know I guess. Unless he can catch her out in the lie then he may as well not worry about that detail. The act and situation and implications are a much more serious matter and deserve some serious thought.
> 
> OP you would be a complete idiot if u took her back. I imagine u r quite a softy, desperately don't want to lose her, can't imagine life without her, and will take her back and hope for the best. You would be a fool if u did this, and she would not respect u. And so she would not respect u and she would not value u. Why? Because u are easy to keep. Easy come, easy go. She doesn't have to work hard for u. The harder u work for something, the more value u place on it and the more u treasure it and take care of it. Make her work hard for u. If she is not prepared to, u know exactly how she feels about u.


My point was that it does not matter. The BJ was enough.


----------



## happydan

lordmayhem said:


> How do you know he's not married or has a girl friend? Have you verified this personally or merely taken her word for it?
> 
> You haven't mentioned how you found out about these emails. Did you find them on your own, or did she just show them to you? She could very well have deleted the incriminating ones.


--Is he married/have a girlfriend?: No, he doesn't. When I said she met P through a friend, I was there that day. We all talked, and P seemed like a good person. That was probably why I felt comfortable letting her study with him. After that day I had no more contact with P except one day, a week or two before the affair/Dday, he called me (I couldn't answer at the time). When I called him him back soonish after, he said he was just wondering why my wife wasn't picking up her phone, as she was late to study, but said she had arrived by that point.
--How I found out about those e-mails: We've always been very open with each other. We don't lock our phones, and already share all our passwords because we "never had anything to hide from each other". The were many a time, out of random boredom (maybe eating breakfast, her phones on the table, I pick it up...) I'd just scroll through her phone, "just because", but never out suspicion (OK...maybe a little bit of me wanted to see what she said to her study partner). I didn't check all the time, but I was able to see their friendship develop from the start. That's why I say the messages seemed "normal", I never, in the 3ish months they knew each other, saw any message out of the ordinary from either of them. He even facebook friended me at one point, early on. That's why I think it happened just recently, how my wife confessed it. Otherwise, it seems like he's the most ballsy AP I've heard of (not shying from contact with me through it all), or this just happened recently. (checking now...I noticed he defriended me from facebook, I'm not sure at what point that happened, I can't say I ever looked at his profile)


----------



## happydan

WorkingOnMe said:


> It's weird. I can almost feel you rug sweeping this. No consequences. You'll be a doormat for the rest of your life.


While my writings might be coming off as passive, I'd say it's more me trying my best to be levelheaded, and not make angry/ranting posts.

Where are we now? I have not forgiven her. She is drafting a No Contact letter that I will read later tonight. She is saying she is willing to do whatever it takes to try and repair our marriage, what she did was a terrible thing, etc.

For me, I have not yet told her either way what I want, D or R, but she knows both are on the table. If the NC letter is a step into R, then that's not what I consider it. I consider it something that just needs to be done. Same thing with requesting a STD test, which she has agreed to do. She also knows I don't consider a clear STD test as me wanting to do anything physical with her again (which I can't and don't want to think about right now)... like the letter, is just something I am demanding be done regardless of my eventually choice.


People have mentioned getting out of limbo as soon as possible is important. How long is that? Days? Weeks? Months?

I will also check out the Mr Nice Guy book when I get a chance.


----------



## morituri

happydan said:


> While my writings might be coming off as passive, I'd say it's more me trying my best to be levelheaded, and not make angry/ranting posts.
> 
> Where are we now? I have not forgiven her. She is drafting a No Contact letter that I will read later tonight. She is saying she is willing to do whatever it takes to try and repair our marriage, what she did was a terrible thing, etc.
> 
> For me, I have not yet told her either way what I want, D or R, but she knows both are on the table. If the NC letter is a step into R, then that's not what I consider it. I consider it something that just needs to be done. Same thing with requesting a STD test, which she has agreed to do. She also knows I don't consider a clear STD test as me wanting to do anything physical with her again (which I can't and don't want to think about right now)... like the letter, is just something I am demanding be done regardless of my eventually choice.
> 
> 
> People have mentioned getting out of limbo as soon as possible is important. How long is that? Days? Weeks? Months?
> 
> I will also check out the Mr Nice Guy book when I get a chance.



Good job. You did well in conveying to her that you are undecided on whether to R or D because you need some time to allow your emotions to settle down before you can make an ultimate decision which you can live with for the rest of your life.

Use this time to seek help from a professional counselor who specializes in helping victims of infidelity and PTSD. Believe me it is money well spent for your personal recovery.

Here is a free copy of NMMNG that you can download and print *No More Mr Nice Guy*.

Lastly, the following information can help you to deal with the mind movies.

*Cheated On, Tortured by Images*
*http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/40190-feeding-affair-image-beast.html#post593486*
*Erase Obsessive Affair Images (in 30 Minutes)*


----------



## happydan

Thank you GridGal and morituri, your posts contained good information for me to read/access.

I've been reading *a lot* on this forum, and to save the details, after some minor trickle truthing, it seems my WS has been doing everything she should be on her part, without any complaints.

Is there such a thing as "too soon" to begin R? I feel like this just happened, but my WS has been extremely supportive, it makes me think it could be time to start the R process. At the same time, it doesn't seem "fair", to me, that I would allow us (her?) to start R so soon.

And yet another part of me thinks that even though WS is doing a great job, the fact that this happened after only year of marriage says it's too big of a risk to continue on, and that D is the best option.

So confusing!!!


----------



## TDSC60

happydan said:


> Thank you GridGal and morituri, your posts contained good information for me to read/access.
> 
> I've been reading *a lot* on this forum, and to save the details, after some minor trickle truthing, it seems my WS has been doing everything she should be on her part, without any complaints.
> 
> Is there such a thing as "too soon" to begin R? I feel like this just happened, but my WS has been extremely supportive, it makes me think it could be time to start the R process. At the same time, it doesn't seem "fair", to me, that I would allow us (her?) to start R so soon.
> 
> And yet another part of me thinks that even though WS is doing a great job, the fact that this happened after only year of marriage says it's too big of a risk to continue on, and that D is the best option.
> 
> So confusing!!!


HD - everyone is different. There is no set time frame. YOU are now in control and you must decide what is best for you. How long does it take to make that decision - you make it when you make it.

Having just found out about her affair, your emotions are all over the place. Take some time to settle down and think clearly.

There is no hard and fast rule that says if you decide to R that you are stuck with that. Some here have tried to R for months and it just didn't workout for one reason or another.

So - take your time - decide what you want - decide if you can forgive her - decide if you can truly love and trust her again. Don't rush - you are talking about what is probably going to be one of the most life changing important decisions you'll ever be faced with.


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## jnj express

Dan---why are you saying, she is willing---she should be down on her knees, begging to do, whatever you want---she should be extatic that she is getting the greatest gift she will ever get---a 2nd chance

As to the other guy, contacting you---why not--he knew you didn't know---had you known, anything, their little study tryst would have ended, on the spot

You are gonna R., with your wife---at least that seems the way you are leaning

Do not just let her, go back to her life style, as if nothing happened-----she has to have some accountability, and do some penance, or she will know she can cheat, again, cuz you will take her back, w/out major consequences

Make her sleep by herself for a while, no dates, good times, whatever it is the 2 of you do together. don't be lovey--dovey, or mr nice guy---if you wanna do those things, wait a couple of months---she should not just be able to go back to what it was before she brought nuclear winter down on your life

Her being open, and transparent, and you being a parole officer, is not a penance, there has to be some form of punishment---otherwise, why are we all here.


----------



## TRy

happydan said:


> And yet another part of me thinks that even though WS is doing a great job, the fact that this happened after only year of marriage says it's too big of a risk to continue on, and that D is the best option.


 With no children, this part of you is making sense. 

Remember in an earlier post you said "Today she came to me and admitted she kissed P last week, and yesterday, told P she liked him. P said he didn’t feel the same way back, but was still attracted to her. There was more kissing and she ‘went down on him’". This means that she had feeling for him that he did not have for her and that he told her that he only wanted her for sex. She was the pursuer so she went down on him to try to win him over. His lack of having feelings for her is the only reason that the relationship did not deepen like she would have liked. Had he returned her feelings, they would be deep in an affair right now and she would not have told you a thing about it. 

Answer these questions. Where would your marraige be right now if not only did the other man (OM) return her affection but actually pursued her? Knowing the answer to the first question, can you ever really trust her? Again, without children, move on. She did this when you are still newlyweds. As a long time marred man, I can tell you that the first year is not the hardest year of a marraige.


----------



## aug

She did this while you both are newlyweds. I would think that the euphoria and joy of being recently married would be strong. 

I think you two should be in the honeymoon stage of your marriage. It has been only a year.

But I suppose you two have been together for 7 years. And she has already checked out of the marriage so easily.

You'll certainly have to be her watcher -- what a sh!tty way to live the rest of your live! 

You have no kids, right? If she gets pregnant, you'll wonder if you're the father. Move on before she cheats again and now kids are involved.


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## Beowulf

Dan,

You are in control. Things are going to go at your pace and according to your timetable. Is it too soon to start on the R? No, just like its never too long into the R for you to pull the plug and file for D if you feel its not working out. You have to decide if this is something you can get past or not and you don't have to make that decision today, tomorrow or even this year. The best advice I can give you at this early stage is simply this: do not sweep this under the rug. Use the resources here on TAM. Read some books on recovering from infidelity. Go to MC if you feel its important. Make sure you understand all the angles and make sure she accepts responsibility and faces the consequences for her bad choice. remember, no consequences = another potential affair. And you don't want to go through this again.


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## Badblood

Dan, you need to divorce her as soon as possible. If this sort of thing has happened in a 1 year marriage with little actual marital stress, what will happen in the future? Her stressing about a test isn't any excuse at all. That she told you may be a sign of guilt, but it may also be a sign that she views you with little or no respect, and doesn't fear the consequences of her actions. What you have to ask yourself is what if it happens again? With somebody who DOES what it to continue? And what if you have children? Do you want to take the chance? She is a very poor risk, and now is the time to lose her , in favor of a better woman.


----------



## MattMatt

Dan needs to do what Dan needs to do.

Stay or go.

If Dan divorces her and feels miserable without the love of his life, well, that'd teach her a lesson, but if it kills his heart too, what'd be the point?

If he stays and she strays again, well, he would be able to deal with that, too, but when it happens.

I could have walked away, years ago. But I didn't. It's only now, learning about stuff on the way plus what I picked up at TAM that I am confident I made the right decision to stay with the love of my life. I can hear her playing with our cat, and I am in danger of crying a bit.

Dan, my good luck and good wishes for both of you, no matter what you both decide on for your future/s. :smthumbup:


----------



## Badblood

Because you stayed, Matt, doesn't mean that is the best course for everyone. In my case it wasn't, maybe in Dan's it might be , but before he decides, he needs to be SURE of what has happened , in all particulars, and he need as much advice as he can get. What I am saying to him is the simple truth. Marriages that have infidelity in the first year almost never are long standing, for the reasons I mentioned. Of course it's Dan's decision, and only he can weigh whether the risk is worth taking, not me and not you.


----------



## lovelygirl

TRy said:


> With no children, this part of you is making sense.
> 
> Remember in an earlier post you said "Today she came to me and admitted she kissed P last week, and yesterday, told P she liked him. P said he didn’t feel the same way back, but was still attracted to her. There was more kissing and she ‘went down on him’". This means that she had feeling for him that he did not have for her and that he told her that he only wanted her for sex. She was the pursuer so she went down on him to try to win him over. His lack of having feelings for her is the only reason that the relationship did not deepen like she would have liked. Had he returned her feelings, they would be deep in an affair right now and she would not have told you a thing about it.
> 
> Answer these questions. Where would your marraige be right now if not only did the other man (OM) return her affection but actually pursued her? Knowing the answer to the first question, can you ever really trust her? Again, without children, move on. She did this when you are still newlyweds. As a long time marred man, I can tell you that the first year is not the hardest year of a marraige.


This is the best post in the thread and the reason why she doesn't deserve R.


----------



## aug

Badblood said:


> Because you stayed, Matt, doesn't mean that is the best course for everyone. In my case it wasn't, maybe in Dan's it might be , but before he decides, he needs to be SURE of what has happened , in all particulars, and he need as much advice as he can get. What I am saying to him is the simple truth. Marriages that have infidelity in the first year almost never are long standing, for the reasons I mentioned. Of course it's Dan's decision, and only he can weigh whether the risk is worth taking, not me and not you.


:iagree:
Most people have a choice in how they want to live their life. He now knows what his future is going to be like if he stays married.


----------



## Beowulf

Badblood said:


> Because you stayed, Matt, doesn't mean that is the best course for everyone. In my case it wasn't, maybe in Dan's it might be , but before he decides, he needs to be SURE of what has happened , in all particulars, and he need as much advice as he can get. What I am saying to him is the simple truth. Marriages that have infidelity in the first year almost never are long standing, for the reasons I mentioned. Of course it's Dan's decision, and only he can weigh whether the risk is worth taking, not me and not you.


True enough BB. All I can say is he has to really inform himself so he can make the best decision for him and not worry about what she wants. There are some great resources here on TAM and some great advice he has already received from both sides of the coin. He needs to figure out what is in his heart. This needs to be all about him. She gave up the right to what she wants the day she cheated.


----------



## DanG

Perspective is important: IMO the "newlywed" description is misleading/irrelelevant. WW and Dan have been together for 7 years. This is classic "seven year itch." Remember, woman are into the idea of the "wedding," not necessarily the guy. She got her wedding. Now what? She's studying with P. He probably IS a good guy. She's kinda into him. Maybe they had some conversation about his lack of a relationship/sex. She's been with the same guy for seven (7) years. She had her wedding, but after seven years is wondering if she still has "it" - especially if P was trying to remain on task. It was a challenge for her to see if she could seduce him. There you have it. It's not rocket science. Being a good guy he may have even told her that she had to tell her husband. Now that she knows that she still does have it, how/when is she going to/should use it? I would say to win/earn BACK her husband! The letter writing is BS. Remember the videos of your wedding? Dig 'em out and play the part with the vows for her - a few times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TRy

DanG said:


> Now that she knows that she still does have it, how/when is she going to/should use it?


 He told her that he did not feel the same way toward her that she felt for him. In other words he told her that she did not still have it. He took the free oral sex because he is a single man, but he did not give any oral or other sex back to her. Her needs were not met, only his. She did not walk away knowing that she still has it.

I went to college and can tell you that there is no advantage to a study buddy unless you are taking the same classes. Since she met this guy through a friend and not in class, I doubt that they share any classes. She used studying as an excuse to get to know a cute single guy that she found attractive. In college studying with someone is often just a date. She is in dating mode not married mode.


----------



## river rat

happydan said:


> Thank you GridGal and morituri, your posts contained good information for me to read/access.
> 
> I've been reading *a lot* on this forum, and to save the details, after some minor trickle truthing, it seems my WS has been doing everything she should be on her part, without any complaints.
> 
> Is there such a thing as "too soon" to begin R? I feel like this just happened, but my WS has been extremely supportive, it makes me think it could be time to start the R process. At the same time, it doesn't seem "fair", to me, that I would allow us (her?) to start R so soon.
> 
> And yet another part of me thinks that even though WS is doing a great job, the fact that this happened after only year of marriage says it's too big of a risk to continue on, and that D is the best option.
> 
> So confusing!!!


Yes, it is very confusing for you, a it was for all of us, no matter what path we have taken. As far as R, I think it's too soon for you to be sure what you want. You guys should check in w/ a MC. There may be someone available thru your school. You have a wonderful life ahead of you. Your first goal is to decide if she is the person that you want to share it with.


----------



## happydan

jnj express said:


> Dan---why are you saying, she is willing---she should be down on her knees, begging to do, whatever you want---she should be extatic that she is getting the greatest gift she will ever get---a 2nd chance
> 
> As to the other guy, contacting you---why not--he knew you didn't know---had you known, anything, their little study tryst would have ended, on the spot
> 
> You are gonna R., with your wife---at least that seems the way you are leaning
> 
> Do not just let her, go back to her life style, as if nothing happened-----she has to have some accountability, and do some penance, or she will know she can cheat, again, cuz you will take her back, w/out major consequences
> 
> Make her sleep by herself for a while, no dates, good times, whatever it is the 2 of you do together. don't be lovey--dovey, or mr nice guy---if you wanna do those things, wait a couple of months---she should not just be able to go back to what it was before she brought nuclear winter down on your life
> 
> Her being open, and transparent, and you being a parole officer, is not a penance, there has to be some form of punishment---otherwise, why are we all here.


When I say willing, maybe I used the wrong word. She is doing everything I tell her to do, and more on her own accord. I only meant to convey it seemed like she was going to be serious about trying to win me back. (granted, it's still been less than a week since D-day) She's says she is afraid to lose me forever to divorce.
I have not rewarded her actions. She sleeps on the sofa and is not allowed to be affectionate to me.




TRy said:


> With no children, this part of you is making sense.
> 
> Remember in an earlier post you said "Today she came to me and admitted she kissed P last week, and yesterday, told P she liked him. P said he didn’t feel the same way back, but was still attracted to her. There was more kissing and she ‘went down on him’". This means that she had feeling for him that he did not have for her and that he told her that he only wanted her for sex. She was the pursuer so she went down on him to try to win him over. His lack of having feelings for her is the only reason that the relationship did not deepen like she would have liked. Had he returned her feelings, they would be deep in an affair right now and she would not have told you a thing about it.
> 
> Answer these questions. Where would your marraige be right now if not only did the other man (OM) return her affection but actually pursued her? Knowing the answer to the first question, can you ever really trust her? Again, without children, move on. She did this when you are still newlyweds. As a long time marred man, I can tell you that the first year is not the hardest year of a marraige.


I forgot to mention (sorry... minds been all over), in her trickle truthing the day after, she amended her previous comment:
FROM: "There was more kissing and she ‘went down on him’ but stopped “because it felt wrong"."
TO: There was more kissing and she ‘went down on him’ but stopped [when she couldn't get him to finish, and offered sex instead. He declined. She then stopped what she was doing...] “because it felt wrong".

So the comment is much worse then it was before. Obviously she stopped because she had been rejected, and then reality possibly might have started to settle in, so she confessed.
For all intents and purposes, I have told my WW that she "did" go all the way with the OM. She was the one who offered to go further, and come to find out, only because somehow the OM was a 30 year old virgin, he was not ready. My WW was emotionally and physically ready for more. With another guy, I have little doubt this would have gone further before (and if) she confessed. 

For your question of "Where would your marriage be right now if not only did the other man (OM) return her affection but actually pursued her"
I'm not sure. As stated above, your question is close to the truth of the situation. She was very much ready for that. If it *actually* had gone further, deep down, I think I would be favoring divorce right now. I do realize that only out of happenstance, that the guy was a rookie, did the affair not continue. But it's hard to live in a world of "what if", and so I am still considering R.

That said, typing this out has made me realize I'm not ready for R at the current time.


----------



## happyman64

> That said, typing this out has made me realize I'm not ready for R at the current time.


It is good that you know this. So many BS's try to force a R when they or their spouse are not ready for it.

Keep working on you and get your wife some therapy so she can understand why she blew up her M.


----------



## bandit.45

Start the divorce process. Go see a lawyer and get the paperwork going. Tell your wife you'll continue moving towards filing as long as you think she is lying to you. 

Don't give your wife another dime towards school for the time being. In fact go open a new checking account in your name only and transfer all the money into it and make sure you have your direct deposit channeled there. 

Your wife has had it easy. You've spoiled her. Time to lay down some heavy psych warfare on her. She needs to know that she is in deep trouble.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TDSC60

Your wife was the aggressor here. She wanted sex with P and went after it body and soul. She got shut down but it was not because of her lack of trying, it was him. I'm guessing he is a closet homosexual.

But the fact that she went after him with everything she had to make it happen is what you should be focusing on. 

Her ego took a major hit when he turned her down. Is she remorseful and sorry that she tried to fvck another man or is she just trying to rebuild her ego with someone that she knows loves her (you)? Is she going to find another guy she is attracted to and offer herself to him so she can validate this need of hers to confirm that men find her attractive?

It's your choice to allow her to stay with you, but I can see you back here in a couple of year heart broken that your young wife found a guy who could get it up for her.


----------



## MattMatt

TDSC60 said:


> Your wife was the aggressor here. She wanted sex with P and went after it body and soul. She got shut down but it was not because of her lack of trying, it was him. I'm guessing he is a closet homosexual.
> 
> But the fact that she went after him with everything she had to make it happen is what you should be focusing on.
> 
> Her ego took a major hit when he turned her down. Is she remorseful and sorry that she tried to fvck another man or is she just trying to rebuild her ego with someone that she knows loves her (you)? Is she going to find another guy she is attracted to and offer herself to him so she can validate this need of hers to confirm that men find her attractive?
> 
> It's your choice to allow her to stay with you, but I can see you back here in a couple of year heart broken that your young wife found a guy who could get it up for her.


Closet homosexual? Or maybe he did not want the risk of starting a relationship with someone who could, just as easily, cheat on him?


----------



## keko

So early in the marriage and she is already seeking other man(e)... this shouldn't even be a question of divorce or not just how fast you can run out the door.


----------



## TDSC60

MattMatt said:


> Closet homosexual? Or maybe he did not want the risk of starting a relationship with someone who could, just as easily, cheat on him?


Or maybe just maybe, however unlikely, he is a moral man who could not jump in the sack with another man's wife.

But the OP needs to focus on his wife's intentions and her aggressive, sexual actions with OM, not the fact that it didn't happen.

You can empty a gun at someone and just because you missed the intended target doesn't mean you are blameless.


----------



## bandit.45

MattMatt said:


> Closet homosexual? Or maybe he did not want the risk of starting a relationship with someone who could, just as easily, cheat on him?


Bingo. He had no respect for her. Sounds like a guy with a conscience.


----------



## Thor

happydan said:


> I forgot to mention (sorry... minds been all over), in her trickle truthing the day after, she amended her previous comment:
> FROM: "There was more kissing and she ‘went down on him’ but stopped “because it felt wrong"."
> TO: There was more kissing and she ‘went down on him’ but stopped [when she couldn't get him to finish, and offered sex instead. He declined. She then stopped what she was doing...] “because it felt wrong".
> 
> So the comment is much worse then it was before.


It seems like it always keeps getting worse. I will not be surprised to hear that things change yet again for the worse.

Her confession to you is a puzzle. It is not common to see that on this forum anyhow.

The fact that she could pursue this man means that she is capable of deep dishonesty. Perhaps her remorse is real, and so perhaps R is a real possibility for you. I hope for the best for you. However, take everything she says as being questionable until you have independent verification. Maybe there is some other reason she confessed, such as under threat someone else was going to tell you if she didn't. You need to verify everything she says for the time being.


----------



## Thor

happydan said:


> He even facebook friended me at one point, early on. That's why I think it happened just recently, how my wife confessed it. Otherwise, it seems like he's the most ballsy AP I've heard of (not shying from contact with me through it all)


I personally know quite a few men whose wives were banging a family friend. The married neighbor who would bring his family over for a bbq. The church friend who says hi every Sunday morning. The guy who was just one of the crowd she used to hang out with before she met hubby.

Part of the allure of an affair is the thrill of the illicitness. Or the guy gets his jollies from laughing at you behind your back. The fact that he was friendly towards you means nothing.


----------



## TDSC60

Her confession makes no sense at all.

She goes down on him and he doesn't respond.
She offers sex and he said no. (How did she offer. Did she ask him or did she strip and give him a lap dance?)
THEN she stops because it felt "wrong". She had to stop at that point since he said no and did not respond to her advances. She did not CHOOSE to stop.

If he had responded she was going fvck his eye out. That is what she planned (and had planned over a period of time). That is what she tried to accomplish. That is what she WANTED. 

She did not care about you. Did not care that she was married. She actively planned over a period of time to betray you in the worst possible way. This was not a drunken ONS. This was not a moment of weakness. She has been planning this since she told you she was "attracted" to him. 

NOW she wants to come back to the marriage. Really?

Good luck with what you decide to do.


----------



## death and taxes

TRy said:


> I went to college and can tell you that there is no advantage to a study buddy unless you are taking the same classes. Since she met this guy through a friend and not in class, I doubt that they share any classes. She used studying as an excuse to get to know a cute single guy that she found attractive. In college studying with someone is often just a date. She is in dating mode not married mode.


:iagree: I studied for the CPA exam (and passed) about six years ago. It is a very, VERY solitary act. It takes a month or more per section to study. It's all about cramming as much bs into your brain as you can. Having somebody there with you would be a distraction for any serious CPA exam candidate. A study buddy is just completely unnecessary and is just asking for trouble, as some people on here have already mentioned.


----------



## Fvstringpicker

death and taxes said:


> : It's all about cramming as much bs into your brain as you can.


It's strikes me as funny the way you put that considering the act she performed.  
Among other things, I'm a retired CPA and you're right about it being a solitary thing.


----------



## death and taxes

Fvstringpicker said:


> It's strikes me as funny the way you put that considering the act she performed.
> Among other things, I'm a retired CPA and you're right about it being a solitary thing.


Badabing! And who says accountants don't have a sense of humor!? 

I feel for the OP. I am going through my own crap right now and this forum has been a godsend. To read what other people go through and to see that we're all feeling the same things. My dday was June 20. So I am still really raw. 

I would like to add something about detecting lies and I think the OP saying he could tell when his WW was lying. What a load. My wife did a bang up job of lying when it suited her and I was never the wiser. And she was so manipulative with how she would answer questions.


----------



## happydan

bandit.45 said:


> Start the divorce process. Go see a lawyer and get the paperwork going. Tell your wife you'll continue moving towards filing as long as you think she is lying to you.
> 
> Don't give your wife another dime towards school for the time being. In fact go open a new checking account in your name only and transfer all the money into it and make sure you have your direct deposit channeled there.
> 
> Your wife has had it easy. You've spoiled her. Time to lay down some heavy psych warfare on her. She needs to know that she is in deep trouble.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Today I gave her some of that 'tough love'. I left the house early in the morning, and when I came back later in the day told her I was going to talk to a divorce lawyer next week. 
She immediately broke down. She told me she was going to continue to fight for me anyway. She asked me what she could do to stop it. I told her not more trickle truthing or it's over. She claims she's finally told me it all, that everything is out there.

I wasn't expecting that response, and we had a good talk about boundaries. Even though it was a constructive talk, I told her it doesn't mean I'm not going to the lawyer.

I guess we'll see what happens...


----------



## bandit.45

happydan said:


> I wasn't expecting that response, and we had a good talk about boundaries. Even though it was a constructive talk, I told her it doesn't mean I'm not going to the lawyer.
> 
> I guess we'll see what happens...


See what happens when you lay down harsh sanctions? Good for you! Do not let up on the pressure. Demand that she attend independent counseling to figure out why she has such lousy personal boundaries. 

If there is trickle truthing going on you will be able to see the cracks showing in her facade. It is doubtful she has ever been faced with something like this. 

Sometimes we have to come close to losing something to see how much we actually treasure it. Your wife is beginning to come out of the fog and is seeing what she stands to lose.


----------



## Phenix70

What kind of women not only betrays her husband but gives a BJ & possibly has penetration sex with a man who isn't attracted to her?
A woman with zero self esteem & some very serious issues.
OP, ask yourself why you want to R with your wife.
And please don't say it's because you love her, there comes a time when you have to love yourself more than the person who is causing the pain & hurt in your relationship.


----------



## bandit.45

Phenix70 said:


> What kind of women not only betrays her husband but gives a BJ & possibly has penetration sex with a man who isn't attracted to her?
> A woman with zero self esteem & some very serious issues.
> OP, ask yourself why you want to R with your wife.
> And please don't say it's because you love her, there comes a time when you have to love yourself more than the person who is causing the pain & hurt in your relationship.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## NewM

I hope you aren't paying for her school,if you are stop it,she might just want to be with you until she finishes it.


----------



## MEM2020

Dan,
You need to do some "baselining". This is qualitative, but important. 
1. During the following intervals how well did your W treat you, how high a priority were you and your needs compared to:
- how you treat and prioritize her?
- how she treats/prioritized her best friends and family?
Intervals:
- before you two discussed marriage
- the period leading up to getting engaged
- engagement
- marriage

The reason I ask, is some partners behavior varies inversely to your commitment to them. The more committed you get, the lower you fall on their priority stack. 
If that is the case here, be careful. For female partners like that, the behavioral staircase goes like this:
- post engagement (slow but noticeable drop - blamed on wedding stress even though that isn't it)
- post wedding (further drop in effort - usually impacts bedroom)
- post first child (it isn't that the baby comes first - suddenly you are coming last)
- last child (you are now mostly invisible)

If this has been happening - the longer it lasts - the harder it becomes to fix



OTE=happydan;886683]When I say willing, maybe I used the wrong word. She is doing everything I tell her to do, and more on her own accord. I only meant to convey it seemed like she was going to be serious about trying to win me back. (granted, it's still been less than a week since D-day) She's says she is afraid to lose me forever to divorce.
I have not rewarded her actions. She sleeps on the sofa and is not allowed to be affectionate to me.




I forgot to mention (sorry... minds been all over), in her trickle truthing the day after, she amended her previous comment:
FROM: "There was more kissing and she ‘went down on him’ but stopped “because it felt wrong"."
TO: There was more kissing and she ‘went down on him’ but stopped [when she couldn't get him to finish, and offered sex instead. He declined. She then stopped what she was doing...] “because it felt wrong".

So the comment is much worse then it was before. Obviously she stopped because she had been rejected, and then reality possibly might have started to settle in, so she confessed.
For all intents and purposes, I have told my WW that she "did" go all the way with the OM. She was the one who offered to go further, and come to find out, only because somehow the OM was a 30 year old virgin, he was not ready. My WW was emotionally and physically ready for more. With another guy, I have little doubt this would have gone further before (and if) she confessed. 

For your question of "Where would your marriage be right now if not only did the other man (OM) return her affection but actually pursued her"
I'm not sure. As stated above, your question is close to the truth of the situation. She was very much ready for that. If it *actually* had gone further, deep down, I think I would be favoring divorce right now. I do realize that only out of happenstance, that the guy was a rookie, did the affair not continue. But it's hard to live in a world of "what if", and so I am still considering R.

That said, typing this out has made me realize I'm not ready for R at the current time.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jnj express

Hey Dan---lets face some hard truth here-----YOU DO NOT KNOW, DO YOU???? you have been together, what, 8 yrs, married one year---only you know about the 1st 7 years, as to when things really became serious, and when it became the 2 of you, and no one else existed---so you may not be into that 7 to 10 yr period, where things become, boring, same old, same old-

-----but you are in the 1st yr. of mge., and usually the first couple of years of mge., the spouses, do not know anyone else exists, they are starry-eyed lovers, and no one else exists---they wouldn't even think of looking at another, they are so in love with each other----fact----your wife in that wondrous period---REPLACED YOU WITH ANOTHER MAN---She became a PUA, and pursued another man, and pursued him so hard, that even tho, he rejected her, she still had her sexual act with him, whether it was the one time or more, you will/may never know, but does it really matter---All you really need to know is that she became a PUA, in the 1st yr. of your mge.

Studying for her exams, was her motel/hotel/parking lot/back seat of a car---she had it perfect---you believed she was studying, and never gave it another thought, cuz you were fully into that 1st yr of mge.-----You didn't know----you don't know, you will never know----only your wife and her lover know----and according to your wife, he didn't even wanna be her lover---so fact is, she, when no one else should have existed to her, gave her lover oral, when she couldn't get a rise, she tried to woo him, with full on sex----he, to give him some credit, basically rejected her---doesn't change the fact, she wanted another man, in preference to you, at a time in the mge, when she shouldn't have even looked at/thought about another man

As I said, you don't know, you will never know---she had planned this so well, with her deceit/lies/conniving---you would have never known---SO I THEN ASK YOU THIS----how do you know, this didn't happen while you were engaged, when she had her bachelorette party, when she was out and away from you, allegedly doing legit. things----YOU DON'T KNOW, YOU WILL NEVER KNOW------How do I know this---cuz she lies, she lied so easily, it just came natural to her

As you said, had he not rejected her, where would this A., be today---since she wanted it, and wanted it bad enuff, to do almost anything to get her lover inside of her, you have to assume, it was gonna go on for a good while. Why she "outed" herself, only she knows---and unless you get to the WHY. and FIX---you will never know---cuz she lies.

We can all talk to you till we/you are blue in the face---but this is on you----You may forgive, but YOU WILL NOT FORGET----this kind of thing is never fully forgotten

You may not trigger, or have visions, nearly as much, later on, but they will come, and they will come for the rest of your life----and there is no one on this or any other forum, that can dispute that, whether they have reconciled, and satisfactorily married or not----this so called wife of yours, took another man, in preference to you, at a time in your mge, when no other man should have existed to her

I will finish with, if you stay, you must find out the deep down core WHY, and fix it, and I would strongly suggest, you do not make babies, with this so called wife, also make her sign a POST--NUP, with a DURESS clause.

If you can handle, all the demons, that follow what she has done, and want to stay, I say good luck to you.


----------



## Beelzebub

HappyDan

your story is the worst case I read on here. that she is welling to go down, then offer him physical and she get rejected ... WOW WOW.
she mad you look bery bad. and showing the low level the woman you call wife is. do you really want her to be the mother of your kids, with only one year marriage she done that, imagine few years down the road, when you guys argue, and fight like normal couples, is she going to sleep with whole campus and going down on each one on the street?
May be the other man felt bad for you thats why he didnt go physical. 

Wakeup Dan, this is a wake call for you. dont risk it, cut you loses and leave with dignity. you can find a better person that dont get down on people.


----------



## snap

She told you everything already, uh-huh. Haven't you heard that before?

File, and let her live the boy cry wolf tale.


----------



## Shaggy

Phenix70 said:


> What kind of women not only betrays her husband but gives a BJ & possibly has penetration sex with a man who isn't attracted to her?
> A woman with zero self esteem & some very serious issues.
> OP, ask yourself why you want to R with your wife.
> And please don't say it's because you love her, there comes a time when you have to love yourself more than the person who is causing the pain & hurt in your relationship.


I disagree about the esteem and issues. A lot of women do exactly what she chose to do because they use sex to lure in the guy. In fact when he rejected her, she upped the offer hoping he'd bite.

It isn't at all about her esteem. It's entire about her choosing to use her assets to hook the guy.


----------



## Shaggy

Dan,

Have you though about getting her a polygraph test about what she did with him, and how many times? I strongly suggest you have her take one ASAP.


----------



## Shaggy

happydan said:


> I forgot to mention (sorry... minds been all over), in her trickle truthing the day after, she amended her previous comment:
> FROM: "There was more kissing and she ‘went down on him’ but stopped “because it felt wrong"."
> TO: There was more kissing and she ‘went down on him’ but stopped [when she couldn't get him to finish, and offered sex instead. He declined. She then stopped what she was doing...] “because it felt wrong".
> 
> So the comment is much worse then it was before. Obviously she stopped because she had been rejected, and then reality possibly might have started to settle in, so she confessed.
> For all intents and purposes, I have told my WW that she "did" go all the way with the OM. She was the one who offered to go further, and come to find out, only because somehow the OM was a 30 year old virgin, he was not ready. My WW was emotionally and physically ready for more. With another guy, I have little doubt this would have gone further before (and if) she confessed.



Wait let me get the story facts you've been told straight:

- he's a 30 year old virgin. 
- Your wife was going down on him and he wasn't up to the task/aroused enough to finish?

I don't believe the story on bit. It's just way to convenient for her as a way to minimize what she did. A 30 year old virgin would more likely not last 30 seconds, and instead your to believe that she couldn't get him fired up?

OK, let's say for minute this is true. Then you've got possibly a worse problem with her. She's going to feeling like she wasn't good enough for him. She just got the ultimate rejection of her as a woman: She gave him oral, and he didn't get over the edge, she offered him full on sex and he turned her down. 

She's got to be feeling humiliated and reject and worthless at this point.  There is a very high chance she'll be wanting to do things to boost her ego. To prove she's still got it. So even if you try to R, be on the watch for her seeking out other guys for attention and the opportunity to prove she's desirable, and even worse watch for her looking for opportunities to prove that she can be attractive to P.

---

However, think through everything she's said and done. Has being humiliated and feeling worthless for being rejected by P like this actually come up? If not , then I think that's a major red flag that she's not at all telling the truth about the encounter.


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

Shaggy said:


> - he's a 30 year old virgin.
> - Your wife was going down on him and he wasn't up to the task/aroused enough to finish?


He might be gay (not that there's anything wrong with that.)


----------



## morituri

Maybe she's not attractive enough to want to have sex with.


----------



## Phenix70

Shaggy said:


> I disagree about the esteem and issues. * A lot of women do exactly what she chose to do because they use sex to lure in the guy. In fact when he rejected her, she upped the offer hoping he'd bite.*
> 
> It isn't at all about her esteem. It's entire about her choosing to use her assets to hook the guy.


And those types of women have low self esteem because they feel that's ALL they have to offer a man.
A strong woman, with self esteem, knows that she's worth more than what's betwen her legs.
Can't get off by a BJ, well how about I just f'k you? 
Using your vagina to get a man is a sign that she doesn't feel she can offer a man more than a piece of ass.


----------



## sandc

Sounds like the OM had more morals that she did. Sounds like he knew it was wrong and maybe that's why he couldn't "finish." Then he rejected her offer of sex. He's done more to help OP's marriage that OP's wife. OM got OP's wife to admit to what she really is.


----------



## MEM2020

Shaggy,
Reverse engineering the event is dangerous, because it's complicated. If he IS a virgin at 30, most likely he has serious conflicts about sex, or lacks desire for women.


UOTE=Shaggy;891033]Wait let me get the story facts you've been told straight:

- he's a 30 year old virgin. 
- Your wife was going down on him and he wasn't up to the task/aroused enough to finish?

I don't believe the story on bit. It's just way to convenient for her as a way to minimize what she did. A 30 year old virgin would more likely not last 30 seconds, and instead your to believe that she couldn't get him fired up?

OK, let's say for minute this is true. Then you've got possibly a worse problem with her. She's going to feeling like she wasn't good enough for him. She just got the ultimate rejection of her as a woman: She gave him oral, and he didn't get over the edge, she offered him full on sex and he turned her down. 

She's got to be feeling humiliated and reject and worthless at this point. There is a very high chance she'll be wanting to do things to boost her ego. To prove she's still got it. So even if you try to R, be on the watch for her seeking out other guys for attention and the opportunity to prove she's desirable, and even worse watch for her looking for opportunities to prove that she can be attractive to P.

---

However, think through everything she's said and done. Has being humiliated and feeling worthless for being rejected by P like this actually come up? If not , then I think that's a major red flag that she's not at all telling the truth about the encounter.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

Whether OM is gay, an shy old virgin or have better judgement/moral, some women finds those challeges very appealing.


----------



## Fvstringpicker

Beelzebub said:


> your story is the worst case I read on here. that she is welling to go down, then offer him physical and she get rejected ... WOW WOW.


Ya'll don't believe this was her first rodeo, do you? She just happened to pick an inexperienced, possibly gay, dork this go round, but I'll guarantee this chick is an expert at maneuvering herself in position, operating a zipper, and handling a sausage.


----------



## warlock07

> FROM: "There was more kissing and she ‘went down on him’ but stopped “because it felt wrong"."
> TO: There was more kissing and she ‘went down on him’ but stopped [when she couldn't get him to finish, and offered sex instead. He declined. She then stopped what she was doing...] “because it felt wrong".


More like there was nothing else to do at this point..


----------



## lovelygirl

Acabado said:


> Whether OM is gay, an shy old virgin or have better judgement/moral, some women finds those challeges very appealing.


Yet, that's no excuse for cheating.


----------



## happydan

So much to respond to! Where to begin...



morituri said:


> Maybe she's not attractive enough to want to have sex with.


I assure you, that's not the case 
But onto more important matters...



MEM11363 said:


> Reverse engineering the event is dangerous, because it's complicated. If he IS a virgin at 30, most likely he has serious conflicts about sex, or lacks desire for women.


Agree... I don't think it matters the reason he said no? Virgin, gay, 'higher morals'... whatever theory people want to go with. I don't see how it matters? The point is she would have gone further.



Shaggy said:


> Have you though about getting her a polygraph test about what she did with him, and how many times? I strongly suggest you have her take one ASAP


I asked if she would take one, and she said "if that's what it takes, I have nothing left to hide."



jnj express said:


> SO I THEN ASK YOU THIS----how do you know, this didn't happen while you were engaged, when she had her bachelorette party, when she was out and away from you, allegedly doing legit. things----YOU DON'T KNOW, YOU WILL NEVER KNOW------How do I know this---cuz she lies, she lied so easily, it just came natural to her


To add from my previous comment, I asked about including these concerns into a polygraph as well, and again she said she had nothing to hide, that the affair she told me about was the only time she strayed from me (physically or emotionally)



MEM11363 said:


> Dan,
> You need to do some "baselining". This is qualitative, but important.
> 1. During the following intervals how well did your W treat you, how high a priority were you and your needs compared to:
> - how you treat and prioritize her?
> - how she treats/prioritized her best friends and family?
> Intervals:
> - before you two discussed marriage
> - the period leading up to getting engaged
> - engagement
> - marriage
> 
> The reason I ask, is some partners behavior varies inversely to your commitment to them. The more committed you get, the lower you fall on their priority stack.
> If that is the case here, be careful. For female partners like that, the behavioral staircase goes like this:
> - post engagement (slow but noticeable drop - blamed on wedding stress even though that isn't it)
> - post wedding (further drop in effort - usually impacts bedroom)
> - post first child (it isn't that the baby comes first - suddenly you are coming last)
> - last child (you are now mostly invisible)
> 
> If this has been happening - the longer it lasts - the harder it becomes to fix


Looking back, it is possible that this might have happened, but only after marriage.

Intervals:
- before you two discussed marriage
Inseparable / I was high priority
- the period leading up to getting engaged
We moved in together at this time, and again, I would say we both were extremely committed to each other. / Again high priority
- engagement
There was the usual wedding stress, but I don't remember any commitment drop. We still had each other's full attention / Still high priority
- marriage
Soon after marriage she started her cpa studying and that became her focus. It is here I admit I felt a noticeable dip in priority. I didn't mind though, because I felt it was career-oriented, and had no reason to think that after the exam things wouldn't return to normal. After she failed her first test part, she really started trying harder, and we talked less and she studied more. Then, that's when she started talking to the OM. And we all know how that turned out...



Phenix70 said:


> What kind of women not only betrays her husband but gives a BJ & possibly has penetration sex with a man who isn't attracted to her?
> A woman with zero self esteem & some very serious issues.
> OP, ask yourself why you want to R with your wife.
> And please don't say it's because you love her, there comes a time when you have to love yourself more than the person who is causing the pain & hurt in your relationship.


I don't love her right now, that's for sure. Not after what she did. I am not going to rug sweep this.
But then, why would I still consider R? Good question.
Because I think back, pre-OM, and we were extremely compatible, I probably couldn't have found anything significant to complain about in out relationship/marriage. It really seemed like a sturdy foundation to start our future on. 
Clearly that foundation is crumbled. I can't forgive my WW at this point, no way. There are definitely MAJOR concerns here how she ran to someone else so easily. Those issues need to be dealt with if R is to even be considered. It is tough to look at her at times. But, she has been doing everything I've told her, and not backed away from my divorce and polygraph threats. It looks like she is actually trying to save what she can.


----------



## Badblood

Dan, It's like this, you ALREADY know enough to know that she is sexually agressive and has no boundaries with other men , whatsoever. You ALREADY know that she cannot be trusted, that she isn't respectful of you or your marriage, and was willing, able, and even entheusiastic about comsumating an affair. These things should be enough to show you what kind of person she is, and more importantly what you have to look forward to in the future. Do you want a woman who you have to keep tabs on , whenever she is away from you? Can you overcome the mistrust? The lack of love and respect?Remember, if she really loved and respected you and your marriage, you wouldn't be here on TAM, would you? Because she wouldn't have even considered this crap. The "tough love", and polygraph are only instruments to use if you are going to R. If you decide on divorce, there is no point in any of that. What you need to do right now is forget about her and her promises (which mean nothing) and guilt and her feelings, and concentrate on YOUR wants and needs and the decision that lies ahead of you.


----------



## jnj express

She's doing the right thing, and says, she will fight for the mge----How come all of a sudden, she is so willing to fight for the mge, when just a little while back, she was all into giving herself to another man, basically telling you---you were nothing to her.

I can give you the WHY, cuz she doesn't wanna find herself, a D., single woman, who will now have to go to work, to be able to make ends meet------there are no more "YOU", out there, and she knows it---there are guys, who just wanna sleep with women, guys, who wanna live off of women, guys who are crazy, drug addicts, criminals, guys with their own load of baggage----she knows if you D., her---the fallout for her ain't gonna be pretty---SHE DOESN'T WANNA CHANGE HER LIFESTYLE, and she needs you to keep bankrolling her---so whe knows what she needs to do------then begs the question, is she doing it for the above, or cuz she really loves you-----

Cuz she really loves you---that's a joke right, a wife who LOVES her H. does not destroy his peace of mind, take away his carefree days, wreck his soul---one who loves another does not do these things---and in your so called wife's case---she was the agressor, in all of this---so now all of a sudden, why is she now fighting for this mge.,---this mge, she was so willing to throw away, only a short time ago

I can answer my why---can your wife answer her WHY---WHY she was so willing to destroy you?????????


----------



## warlock07

I would be interested if there were other reasons that she confessed other than guilt.(got caught etc) Maybe you should try talking to this OM.


----------



## Acabado

She needs to dig deep within and come clean with answers. What did she think to give her the OK to go with it? What was going on in her head for this? Confession is a good start, but only that. Why did she confess? She needs to take it seriously, leave no stone unturned, beat that horse to the pulp in order to "affair proof" herself, she has to do it for HER, not because your pressure, becuse she might lose you. It's a major event in her life, it's very serious. She gets IC, she read books. What are her weak points, what look like her brokeness, how to fix it?
She has to search her soul, examine herself, her story, her patterns, she had to fix herslef and "show the maths", so to speak.


----------



## MEM2020

HD,
She is not lying. The comfort with the poly - the fact that she volunteered this at the start - she is being straight with you. 

I think it is good and important that you accept what she has told you at face value, as that will allow you to focus on the "why". 

As for the CPA exam - it is difficult to assess whether she deprioritized you because she was so worried about that. Or whether it was a coincidence and she used the exam as an excuse. 

The real issue here kind of looks like this (to me): Why did she do this? What was her primary driver? And as part of that what was her "end game"? 

I also believe that there is a big difference between blame shifting and acknowledging contribution. Did you contribute?




happydan said:


> So much to respond to! Where to begin...
> 
> 
> 
> I assure you, that's not the case
> But onto more important matters...
> 
> 
> 
> Agree... I don't think it matters the reason he said no? Virgin, gay, 'higher morals'... whatever theory people want to go with. I don't see how it matters? The point is she would have gone further.
> 
> 
> 
> I asked if she would take one, and she said "if that's what it takes, I have nothing left to hide."
> 
> 
> 
> To add from my previous comment, I asked about including these concerns into a polygraph as well, and again she said she had nothing to hide, that the affair she told me about was the only time she strayed from me (physically or emotionally)
> 
> 
> 
> Looking back, it is possible that this might have happened, but only after marriage.
> 
> Intervals:
> - before you two discussed marriage
> Inseparable / I was high priority
> - the period leading up to getting engaged
> We moved in together at this time, and again, I would say we both were extremely committed to each other. / Again high priority
> - engagement
> There was the usual wedding stress, but I don't remember any commitment drop. We still had each other's full attention / Still high priority
> - marriage
> Soon after marriage she started her cpa studying and that became her focus. It is here I admit I felt a noticeable dip in priority. I didn't mind though, because I felt it was career-oriented, and had no reason to think that after the exam things wouldn't return to normal. After she failed her first test part, she really started trying harder, and we talked less and she studied more. Then, that's when she started talking to the OM. And we all know how that turned out...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't love her right now, that's for sure. Not after what she did. I am not going to rug sweep this.
> But then, why would I still consider R? Good question.
> Because I think back, pre-OM, and we were extremely compatible, I probably couldn't have found anything significant to complain about in out relationship/marriage. It really seemed like a sturdy foundation to start our future on.
> Clearly that foundation is crumbled. I can't forgive my WW at this point, no way. There are definitely MAJOR concerns here how she ran to someone else so easily. Those issues need to be dealt with if R is to even be considered. It is tough to look at her at times. But, she has been doing everything I've told her, and not backed away from my divorce and polygraph threats. It looks like she is actually trying to save what she can.


----------



## badbane

Okay the 30 yr old virgin story. Really how easy it is to tell this lie to a woman. Profess that he thinks she is the ONE. Then he bangs her brains out and moves on. Then he finds the next woman get involved and professes he is a 31 yr old virgin and she's the ONE. (you know since you can't verify anatomically) and then start the cycle again. I know this cause I used the line once when I was single. (it worked)

Anyway to get to the point. I don't think you want to really face the facts without trying to spin them. I know you love this woman and out of some sort of loyalty you are trying to portay things to us . I am sorry but this is not a game here. You need to get to the bottom of this. I just don't want there to be an update to this thread a few months from now. "DDay#2".


----------



## MEM2020

This is foolish - she voluntarily shared this to clear her conscience. Why do that - and lie?




badbane said:


> Okay the 30 yr old virgin story. Really how easy it is to tell this lie to a woman. Profess that he thinks she is the ONE. Then he bangs her brains out and moves on. Then he finds the next woman get involved and professes he is a 31 yr old virgin and she's the ONE. (you know since you can't verify anatomically) and then start the cycle again. I know this cause I used the line once when I was single. (it worked)
> 
> Anyway to get to the point. I don't think you want to really face the facts without trying to spin them. I know you love this woman and out of some sort of loyalty you are trying to portay things to us . I am sorry but this is not a game here. You need to get to the bottom of this. I just don't want there to be an update to this thread a few months from now. "DDay#2".


----------



## badbane

mem11363 said:


> this is foolish - she voluntarily shared this to clear her conscience. Why do that - and lie?


trickle truth
It may be some of the story but it isn't all of it. For your own sanity you need the whole story. Think about all the times in your life you have been caught doing something terrible. Did you tell the whole truth, or did you try to tell just enough?


----------



## turnera

Before you do anything else, set up some MC appointments so you can talk this out in front of a professional.


----------



## Remains

happydan said:


> People have mentioned getting out of limbo as soon as possible is important. How long is that? Days? Weeks? Months?


Happydan, I wouldn't worry about the 'getting out of limbo'. That is a big issue if your partner is not coming clean, if there is continued lying, continued deception etc. Your limbo is difficult too... the question of knowing what to do next, whether to leave or try to fix it. That will come in time...and that limbo is difficult in your scenario as u have only been married a year. Do u cut loose and run, or do u try and make it with someone u thought u'd spend the rest of your life with? It sounds to me like she made a stupid big mistake and has come to u straight away to try and fix it. This is not a serial liar, deceptive and devious person...Yet. This is not the actions of a serial cheater....Yet. (maybe she will never do it again...the fact she would be with him now if he hadn't refused tells me she may well do it again). Now it is decision time. Limbo is a hell I would not wish upon anyone. Decisions, difficult decisions... they are all difficult no matter what the situation.


----------



## happydan

badbane said:


> Anyway to get to the point. I don't think you want to really face the facts without trying to spin them. I know you love this woman and out of some sort of loyalty you are trying to portay things to us . I am sorry but this is not a game here. You need to get to the bottom of this. I just don't want there to be an update to this thread a few months from now. "DDay#2".


I'm not trying to spin events (or, I don't think I am?), and I understand this is not a game. This was a devastating thing that just happened to me.
I've said before, I'm considering for intents and purposes, that they did had sex. Her mind crossed that boundary, and it only didn't happen out of happenstance. She doesn't get a pass from me there (if that's the truth). I will get her to take a poly to confirm that. I don't love her right now. She did a sick thing and I hate what's she did to our marriage (short as it was), and to me. 
...but yes, I also admit I am looking for a reason to consider R. 

She broke the promise of our marriage after a year. She threw away seven years together for someone she just met. 
I look at those above sentences, and it seems a slam-dunk for divorce.
But I don't want to jump to that step yet. I need to see if she's telling the truth, showing true remorse, and willing to fight for me and our marriage. 



MEM11363 said:


> As for the CPA exam - it is difficult to assess whether she deprioritized you because she was so worried about that. Or whether it was a coincidence and she used the exam as an excuse.
> 
> The real issue here kind of looks like this (to me): Why did she do this? What was her primary driver? And as part of that what was her "end game"?
> 
> I also believe that there is a big difference between blame shifting and acknowledging contribution. Did you contribute?


I think I got deprioritized due to the cpa exam. You can say I'm trying to defend my W, but I really never saw actions like this out of her until she started her studies. I was never a low priority to her pre-cpa studying.

Then why/what was the driver? I asked her this. She claims she doesn't know. "It just happened," "I don't know," "I did something terrible/stupid because I wasn't thinking" 
I continued to press but that's all I got (that and variations of it). I asked her about any planned 'end game', or what she hoped to get out of it. Same responses. I would make sure this get's verified in the polygraph.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by did I contribute? Are you asking if I contributed to the affair? If so, no. I don't see how I contributed to her cheating. But I do believe in the statement I've seen on this forum elsewhere, something like "100% of the affair is the WS's fault, but the issues that led to it are split 50/50" (I know I botched it from memory... but I think forum members know what I'm talking about).
I just don't know if my marriage is worth saving yet, if I could possible forgive my WW at some point... as much as I'm trying to look for reason for R.

Also, I'm not sold on the idea of MC until I decide if I want R. If I'm still considering divorce, why go to MC?


----------



## the guy

At the very least get some IC for the PDS and yes infidelty is dramatic.

As far as your WW goes she could use some IC herself to figure out why she has these behaviors that she doesn't understand...this is one of many ways she can affair proof her marriage, even if its not with you.

Until she can admit to being what she is and understand her self how are you going to fill that need?

In my wifes case she has come to terms and understands her self more and now has the tools to communicate to me, how to fill that void she once had.


----------



## Badblood

MEM11363 said:


> This is foolish - she voluntarily shared this to clear her conscience. Why do that - and lie?


Trickle truth. She is admitting to what can easily be proven, to forestall any further investigation on the part of Dan, and to avoid disclosing what really happened and to avoid the consequences. The Bottomline is that belated morals and conscience are suspect and should HAVE to be proven.


----------



## Acabado

> She claims she doesn't know. "It just happened," "I don't know," "I did something terrible/stupid because I wasn't thinking"


Tell her it is very bad news. This was supposed to honeymoon phase. What is going to happen a few years dwon the road when you have a couple of kids, both working like crazy, little time to do couple things, all seems mundane, bills pilng up... the natural deception...
She has to dig within. Things like this don't just happen. As I said earlier she get IC, she read books, she learn about personal boundaires, she understand how EAs start and develope, she search her soul. If she says "I don't know how it happened" she should be shocked about her own inmature response, she should be the most interested in having answers and tools to prevent this for happen again, she should be worried about how protect herself and her marriage from her own weakness! She has to become a safe person to be with. This is very serious. Otherwise she will repeat this, with your or whith a new relationship. It goes beyond the marriage, it's a character flaw. Put the ball in her court.
Ask her how is she going to prevent it for now on?
You are not going to buy the "I promise I won't do it again", it holds no water, people rarely change. People won't change if they don't want to very seriusly. And changing hurts, one has to face the mirror and watch closely the flaws. Real, core, lasting changes doen't happen overnight, but they must happen.
Ask her to "show you the maths".


----------



## Beowulf

Dan,

What is the most important thing in her life right now? Is it you? Is it her marriage? Is it her CPA exam? I ask because there is a difference between you as her priority and her marriage as her priority. Ask this question of yourself. Since this affair occurred while she was de-prioritizing you and studying for her CPA exam would she be willing to completely give up this goal. If you said to her that you felt her CPA goals contributed to the downfall of the relationship and you NEVER EVER wanted her to pursue that again how would she react?


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

Beowulf said:


> Dan,
> 
> What is the most important thing in her life right now? Is it you? Is it her marriage? Is it her CPA exam? I ask because there is a difference between you as her priority and her marriage as her priority. Ask this question of yourself. Since this affair occurred while she was de-prioritizing you and studying for her CPA exam would she be willing to completely give up this goal.* If you said to her that you felt her CPA goals contributed to the downfall of the relationship and you NEVER EVER wanted her to pursue that again how would she react?*


Be careful. A move like this could set the OP up for a Pyrrhic victory. She may very well agree to give up her goal of earning her CPA license; however, over time the resentment might grow to extreme proportions where she consciously (or subconsciously) sabotages the marriage.


----------



## happydan

Beowulf said:


> Dan,
> 
> What is the most important thing in her life right now? Is it you? Is it her marriage? Is it her CPA exam? I ask because there is a difference between you as her priority and her marriage as her priority. Ask this question of yourself. Since this affair occurred while she was de-prioritizing you and studying for her CPA exam would she be willing to completely give up this goal. If you said to her that you felt her CPA goals contributed to the downfall of the relationship and you NEVER EVER wanted her to pursue that again how would she react?


Right now? It _seems_ I am the priority. She has not studied for the cpa exam since she confessed to me. She has another test coming up in a few weeks that I'm sure she needs to be studying for, if she were to pass it, but has instead ignored her books in favor of trying to convince me to take her back.

As far as asking her to completely give up that goal... I'm not sure I want to ask. I think she has a right to better her career, she just should have never been trusted to study alone with a guy... for months straight. I was too nice, giving her no boundaries. I think if she studied alone, there would have definitely not been any cheating (at the moment). But, clearly, she has issues that might have caused her to cheat on me at a later time. After meeting a guy at work? After kids? 15 years from now?
The more I look at this, I think the cpa studying and subsequent "study buddy" combo brought these issues out a lot sooner then they otherwise would have surfaced.

It looks to me, that I now have to decide if she's worth R, after just one year of marriage (and months/years of counseling) or use this opportunity to get out, at the risk of her caving so easily again to another guy, in another situation like this.


----------



## bandit.45

Well she has already sabotaged the marriage. I think he needs to divorce her. This same thing happened to me early on in my marriage and I took my then-wife back. Eighteen years later she did it again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happydan

*carpenoctem*,

I screwed up the phrase then. All I meant to convey was that I could not stop my W's literal actions of taking the affair. That was her choice. She chose to cheat, when she could have chose not to.
As far as my fault in this? I have already previously recognized I gave her no boundaries. I let our marriage fall into an area that allowed my W to get into that situation without any thought of repercussion on my end. I learned a harsh lesson there.


----------



## bandit.45

But what we are trying to get through to you Happydan is that most wives would have maintained their marital boundaries if given the same leeway you gave your wife. Your wife didn't cheat because of the loose reigns you gave her. She cheated because she is a cheater. She cheated because she is weak and has a part of her moral makeup that is broken and underdeveloped. 

She would have found a time and a place to cheat on you wherever or whenever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Well said Dan. That was what I meant by my question. And in some cases the betrayed spouse is much less than 50% responsible for setting the stage. In others much more than 50%.

So my line in the sand with her would be this: if it "just happened" and that's the best explanation you have, than we are done. Because that means it could just happen again. And honestly, it didn't just happen. She was the aggressor, and she thought about this for quite some time before it happened.

It just happened - is the one blatant lie she is telling you.


QUOTE=happydan;895641]*carpenoctem*,

I screwed up the phrase then. All I meant to convey was that I could not stop my W's literal actions of taking the affair. That was her choice. She chose to cheat, when she could have chose not to.
As far as my fault in this? I have already previously recognized I gave her no boundaries. I let our marriage fall into an area that allowed my W to get into that situation without any thought of repercussion on my end. I learned a harsh lesson there.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## morituri

MEM you seem to always forget the open bracket "[" before the word QUOTE. Yeah I know, I'm a picky ahole. LOL!


----------



## aug

bandit.45 said:


> But what we are trying to get through to you Happydan is that most wives would have maintained their marital boundaries if given the same leeway you gave your wife. Your wife didn't cheat because of the loose reigns you gave her. *She cheated because she is a cheater. **She cheated because she is weak and has a part of her moral makeup that is broken and underdeveloped.
> 
> She would have found a time and a place to cheat on you wherever or whenever.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



:iagree:

It's a choice she made. That's her inclination. She gave you a glimpse of who she is and who she will be.

At least you know it now this early in your marriage. Makes it much easier for you.


----------



## MattMatt

> Also, I'm not sold on the idea of MC until I decide if I want R. If I'm still considering divorce, why go to MC?


A friend of mine was desperate to save her marriage. She would do anything to save it.

MC helped convince her that her marriage was beyond saving, so she was able to go forward to divorce her cheating spouse. But the MC let her do it with, as she put it, a clear conscience, and the knowledge that she did her best for herself, her marriage and the twins she was having.


----------



## jnj express

One year into a mge---you don't really think you need to give boundaries

Where would mge. be, if the spouses, immediately started laying rules on one another

It should just go w/out saying---that a married spouse, knows how they need to act in re:the opposite sex----I guess it isn't like that any more.---Sad situation

One thing that both spouses in a mge, should/need to settle on in a mge., is that there is no expectation of privacy---they had better be an open book to each other, no secrets, no hiding-----one wants privacy, they stay single.

As to your wife stating she wasn't thinking----she may not give you a why---but she certainly was thinking---her brain didn't stop working---she knew what she was doing while she was working with the OM's "tool"---she knew that you were there, and this could very well wreck the mge---those thoughts came up, believe it----she just rejected the "right", and went with the "wrong", at that point in time, she didn't care---her desire for him, overrode, her desire to keep her mge., safe---she was willing to take her chances, and deal with the fallout later.


----------



## turnera

MattMatt said:


> A friend of mine was desperate to save her marriage. She would do anything to save it.
> 
> MC helped convince her that her marriage was beyond saving, so she was able to go forward to divorce her cheating spouse. But the MC let her do it with, as she put it, a clear conscience, and the knowledge that she did her best for herself, her marriage and the twins she was having.


 Exactly.

If you do try MC, at least you can walk away knowing you tried everything.


----------



## Badblood

But why should Dan be trying anything? Why should the honus of MC and the heavy lifting be done by Dan at all? His wife should be jumping through hoops to prove herself, and Dan should ONLY be thinking about his choices for the future. Sometimes we BS'S take too much of the work and worry of post-affair married life on ourselves. Handling a WS with kid gloves, giving them time to heal and forget the OP, doing most of the work on the marriage that they (ws) broke as well as our own issues (fallout)sends a very bad message. Right now, Dan should do NOTHING for his wife at all, she should do EVERYTHING for him. Since my ex-wife's affair I have changed my mind about how a cheater should be handled. If I had it to do over again, I would have immediately kicked my ex out on her ass, at least temporarily, To allow a "cooling off period", so that BOTH of us could make our decisions about any R or D, without daily contact and it's resulting drama, anger, guilt and stress.


----------



## turnera

Yeah. In the 'real' world, the WS slaps her forehead and says 'what was I thinking?' and rushes to make up to him.

Not.

That said, I also agree - if one is so inclined - that kicking the cheater out immediately is GREAT for pulling their head out of their butt. But he's not doing that, so...


----------



## TDSC60

aug said:


> :iagree:
> 
> It's a choice she made. That's her inclination. She gave you a glimpse of who she is and who she will be.
> 
> At least you know it now this early in your marriage. Makes it much easier for you.


Plus, even though she appears remorseful and looks to be doing whatever she can to make it up to you, the answers "I don't know why it happened" and "One thing led to another" are very disturbing.

It happened because she planned it for weeks. It happened because she wanted it for a long time. It happened because she is a selfish, self-center person with no thought or regard for the pain her actions will cause others. The first step toward change is her admitting these things.

I am afraid you got the confession because, after she was rejected, she was afraid P was going to tell you what a **** your wife is.

The chances of her doing it again (even with all the "I would never do that to you again" speeches) are very high. She has it hard wired into her brain to cheat. People like this do not change overnight without a lot of therapy, some never do. They just get better at hiding it.

You have a hard choice to make.

Good luck.


----------



## Badblood

turnera said:


> Yeah. In the 'real' world, the WS slaps her forehead and says 'what was I thinking?' and rushes to make up to him.
> 
> Not.
> 
> That said, I also agree - if one is so inclined - that kicking the cheater out immediately is GREAT for pulling their head out of their butt. But he's not doing that, so...


Lets put it this way, IF she doesn't do EVERYTHING to rectify her cheating, why should Dan be willing to give her a second chance? Just restitution is absolutely vital to R, and this should happen BEFORE R is even attempted.


----------



## turnera

And, as I said, that is a pipe dream. Almost never happens. 

Look, if he wants to divorce her, I support him. If he wants to consider his options first and find a way to fix things, I support him. HIS choice.


----------



## Beowulf

happydan said:


> It looks to me, that I now have to decide if she's worth R, after just one year of marriage (and months/years of counseling) or use this opportunity to get out, at the risk of her caving so easily again to another guy, in another situation like this.


NOW you're thinking clearly! Don't R just because she says she is sorry and want to save the marriage. Do it because YOU want to...if you in fact do. If you can't get beyond this in your own mind that is a perfectly valid and healthy response too. I R with my wife but in your situation I'm not sure I could even consider it.


----------



## turnera

Remember that they've been together for 7 years.


----------



## Beowulf

Badblood said:


> Lets put it this way, IF she doesn't do EVERYTHING to rectify her cheating, why should Dan be willing to give her a second chance? Just restitution is absolutely vital to R, and this should happen BEFORE R is even attempted.


I happen to agree with BB her. Ever betrayal is different I know. In some cases the BS has to help the WS along in the beginning until the fog clears. In my case Morrigan had to literally drag me through R in the beginning. It was only when I truly saw how hard she was trying that I started to work on the marriage with her. In Dan's case his wife should be doing everything to give him a reason to R. Its only been a year and she is already breaking her marriage vows. Her affair was more of a one night stand. There really shouldn't be any "fog" to consider here. She should be answering his every question honestly and completely. If she doesn't know the answers she should be diligently searching for them. She has to give him a reason to stick around. It seems she is only willing to say and do what she thinks will be just enough. That's isn't going to cut it and if Dan R with her under these circumstances its only going to happen again years later when it will be harder to divorce.


----------



## Beowulf

turnera said:


> Remember that they've been together for 7 years.


7 year itch is still not a good explanation for her actions. The length of their relationship has less bearing than how quickly she was able to go from telling Dan "I do" to telling the OM "I want."


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Beowulf said:


> 7 year itch is still not a good explanation for her actions. The length of their relationship has less bearing than how quickly she was able to go from telling Dan "I do" to telling the OM "I want."


I took Tunera's comment to mean that this is a seven year relationship, as opposed to a shorter, one year of dating one year of marriage sort of thing. Because of that, it is a bit more understandable that the OP would be looking at reasons to R rather than just kicking her to the curb. Not to say that he should, only that it is understandable.


----------



## bandit.45

turnera said:


> Remember that they've been together for 7 years.


Youre right...and there is a high probability she has cheated on him several times during that 7 years. I don't believe this is her first trip around the cheating block.


----------



## turnera

Tall Average Guy said:


> I took Tunera's comment to mean that this is a seven year relationship, as opposed to a shorter, one year of dating one year of marriage sort of thing. Because of that, it is a bit more understandable that the OP would be looking at reasons to R rather than just kicking her to the curb. Not to say that he should, only that it is understandable.


 Exactly. We can give advice all day long, but if the OP has one goal, it does little good for us to lambast him with advice for another goal.


----------



## Beowulf

turnera said:


> Exactly. We can give advice all day long, but if the OP has one goal, it does little good for us to lambast him with advice for another goal.


As you are probably aware, I am one of the biggest proponents for reconciliation on TAM. But R takes two people working very hard together to accomplish successfully. In this case I see a man that was betrayed and is really not all that keen on reconciling. And I see a woman that has cheated on her husband after only one year of marriage and is not really offering him anything more than an apology. No explanation, no reassurances that it won't happen again. To me their six years before marriage means very little other than a longer time to become familiar with one another. When you utter your marriage vows its supposed to mean something. Your mind and attitude is supposed to record a change in the relationship from one of loose affiliation to deep commitment. She couldn't hold to her marriage vows after only one year. This demonstrates to me that she never actually felt that commitment. The question is will she ever feel that commitment. Only Dan can decide for himself whether she is capable of that or not.


----------



## happydan

Beowulf said:


> And I see a woman that has cheated on her husband after only one year of marriage and is not really offering him anything more than an apology. No explanation, no reassurances that it won't happen again.


I agree with almost all of your post, but she has been reassuring me. I left that out because I didn't know it was a big deal (being "just words" to me right now). Daily, she's been bombarding me with texts, and verbally at home, that she would never do this again. She sounds remorseful when she says it. She cries or is on the verge of crying when telling me, at times. I didn't mention that before because I've been looking for meaningful actions instead of words right now. 
Today she left me a voicemail, on her own accord, telling me: (paraphrasing here)
She thought more about my questions from yesterday of how/why she did this. She spoke about how pre-OM, nothing was inherently wrong with our marriage to make her seek out another guy. She said the longer she spent studying/with the OM, and less time with me, she felt further apart from me and feelings started to emerge for the OM and she was afraid of telling me because she didn't want me to be angry. She then started ignoring our marriage's needs, telling herself she needed to be away from me to study more, which allowed her to justify to herself that our marriage wasn't working, which again allowed her to mentally push me aside while she was with the OM, making it easier for her to start the PA. She admitted that only when faced with rejection did she realize exactly what she had done, and hadn't thought of the consequences while it was happening, always pushing it out of her head while away from me. Again, ending with pleas to believe her it'd never happen again.
...so, much more of an explanation than I got yesterday.

It's all a lot to process. It's only been 1.5 weeks. I admit, pre-Dday, I was one of those people who thought "cheating = divorce, no exceptions." But then it actually happens to me, and...
I'm convinced divorce is the only option. Then five minutes later, I'm telling myself reasons why we should give R a chance.

As I said before, I admit I'm looking for reasons to consider R. 
She does have a few things going for her,
- telling me everything she did, in the PA-aspect (to be verified in a polygraph)
- not a serial cheater (to be verified in polygraph, but I sincerely doubt she is)
- she stopped studying her exam to focus on me, ever since Dday, because she wanted to
- the previous 7 years were great, so I know the potential our marriage could rebuild too if we/she fixes our/herself through counseling
On the other hand,
- she so easily threw away everything we built together
- only told me because she got rejected
- after one year of marriage?!?!

The three things working against her are pretty big. *Huge*. 
But she's been doing enough to keep me from divorcing her outright. 


Update: As I was finishing typing this out, she texted me asking permission to buy something that was $50~. Because "I need to know whatever shes doing without me around - emotionally, financially, digitally, and whatever else I want"
Again... doesn't convince me to go to R, but it's another action that keeps me from immediately filing from divorce. I do feel she's putting in effort, but don't know if it's enough (I don't know what to compare it to either, than just 'what feels right' to me)


----------



## Beowulf

happydan said:


> I agree with almost all of your post, but she has been reassuring me. I left that out because I didn't know it was a big deal (being "just words" to me right now). Daily, she's been bombarding me with texts, and verbally at home, that she would never do this again. She sounds remorseful when she says it. She cries or is on the verge of crying when telling me, at times. I didn't mention that before because I've been looking for meaningful actions instead of words right now.
> Today she left me a voicemail, on her own accord, telling me: (paraphrasing here)
> She thought more about my questions from yesterday of how/why she did this. She spoke about how pre-OM, nothing was inherently wrong with our marriage to make her seek out another guy. She said the longer she spent studying/with the OM, and less time with me, she felt further apart from me and feelings started to emerge for the OM that she thought would just go away. She was afraid of telling me because she didn't want me to be angry. She then started ignoring our marriage's needs, telling herself she needed to be away from me to study more, which allowed her to justify to herself that our marriage wasn't working, which again allowed her to mentally push me aside while she was with the OM, making it easier for her to start the PA. She admitted that only when faced with rejection did she realize exactly what she had done, and hadn't thought of the consequences while it was happening, always pushing it out of her head while away from me. Again, ending with pleas to believe her it'd never happen again.
> ...so, much more of an explanation than I got yesterday.
> 
> It's all a lot to process. It's only been 1.5 weeks. I admit, pre-Dday, I was one of those people who thought "cheating = divorce, no exceptions." But then it actually happens to me, and...
> I'm convinced divorce is the only option. Then five minutes later, I'm telling myself reasons why we should give R a chance.
> 
> As I said before, I admit I'm looking for reasons to consider R.
> She does have a few things going for her,
> - telling me everything she did, in the PA-aspect (to be verified in a polygraph)
> - not a serial cheater (to be verified in polygraph, but I sincerely doubt she is)
> - she stopped studying her exam to focus on me, ever since Dday, because she wanted to
> - the previous 7 years were great, so I know the potential our marriage could rebuild too if we/she fixes our/herself through counseling
> On the other hand,
> - she so easily threw away everything we built together
> - only told me because she got rejected
> - after one year of marriage?!?!
> 
> The three things working against her are pretty big. *Huge*.
> But she's been doing enough to keep me from divorcing her outright.
> 
> 
> Update: As I was finishing typing this out, she texted me asking permission to buy something that was $50~. Because "I need to know whatever shes doing without me around - emotionally, financially, digitally, and whatever else I want"
> Again... doesn't convince me to go to R, but it's another action that keeps me from immediately filing from divorce. I do feel she's putting in effort, but don't know if it's enough (I don't know what to compare it to either, than just 'what feels right' to me)


Believe me, I'm right there with you. I always said an affair would end the marriage. I had to be dragged kicking and screaming (figuratively of course) into reconciliation. In my case we had 10 years of marriage and a child together so there were other considerations. But what actions is she going to take to repair the damage she has caused other than to text you more and check in before she spends your money? That is assuming she passes the poly.

You mentioned counseling. What form of counseling? Marriage counseling? Individual counseling?

Is she prepared to continue transparency for the entirety of the marriage if you so choose? Have you asked her this?

What about work situations? If she could this easily lower her boundaries in just a study situation how will she react being approached by an amorous coworker?

A few questions about what you might be prepared to do.

It seems like her boundaries need a lot of work. Are you willing to spend the next two to five years constantly checking up on her to verify her whereabouts?

In reality the betrayed spouse has to work just about as hard as the wayward spouse in a successful reconciliation. Are you willing to change your outlook on marriage and relationships to keep the marriage vibrant and consciously active?

For quite a while every time your wife is not in physical proximity to you you are going to wonder and worry about where she is and who she is with. Are you prepared for the eventual triggers and mind movies that you will have to face especially when she is absent from you?

These are questions that you seriously need to consider. If you decide to reconcile this is going to be the hardest thing you and your wife have ever done and probably will do. Are you both prepared for that?


----------



## Phenix70

Beowulf said:


> As you are probably aware, I am one of the biggest proponents for reconciliation on TAM. But R takes two people working very hard together to accomplish successfully. In this case I see a man that was betrayed and is really not all that keen on reconciling. And I see a woman that has cheated on her husband after only one year of marriage and is not really offering him anything more than an apology. No explanation, no reassurances that it won't happen again. *To me their six years before marriage means very little other than a longer time to become familiar with one another. When you utter your marriage vows its supposed to mean something. Your mind and attitude is supposed to record a change in the relationship from one of loose affiliation to deep commitment.* She couldn't hold to her marriage vows after only one year. This demonstrates to me that she never actually felt that commitment. The question is will she ever feel that commitment. Only Dan can decide for himself whether she is capable of that or not.


Agreed, there are vows for a reason, it's a verbal confirmation that your relationship is on another level, at least I like to think so.

To the OP, you've got a rough road ahead of you, I wish you the best & hopefully you can find peace in whatever decision you make.


----------



## jnj express

Her justification for her A., is the biggest crock, I have heard in a long time---she got close to him studying, stayed close, and wanted him, that's it in a nutshell---I see her studying wasn't even that important, cuz she isn't even taking the exam

She took a perfectly good, no problems mge., and destroyed it, along with a loving, innocent H., and ruined you----whether you stay or go---your outlook on life will never be the same

Do whatever---but at least do not let her, move back into her lifestyle, as it was, and as if nothing happened, and do not let her have that lifestyle for a good long period of time----but whatever accountability she has, it will never equal to what you will face.


----------



## Acabado

I don't think she's making excuses. She already told the marriage was just fine before OM.
I'm another one thinking about what counseling you are talking about. I believe you needs her getting IC way more than MC. There's not real marriage issues here to fix. She's the one who need to be fixed. She admit it.
She's not telling you *why* (beyond she got attached to OM and then horny), she likely needs time, self examination, perspective and a good, challenging IC for this. She's telling you *"how"*. That's a good start in my book. She sees now clearly _how_ it happened for her. The detachment, the self gaslighting, the rewtiting, the blameshifting, her justifications back then. She's describing the fog.


----------



## iheartlife

Acabado said:


> I don't think she's making excuses. She already told the marriage was just fine before OM.
> I'm another one thinking about what counseling you are talking about. I believe you needs her getting IC way more than MC. There's not real marriage issues here to fix. She's the one who need to be fixed. She admit it.
> She's not telling you *why* (beyond she got attached to OM and then horny), she likely needs time, self examination, perspective and a good, challenging IC for this. She's telling you *"how"*. That's a good start in my book. She sees now clearly _how_ it happened for her. The detachment, the self gaslighting, the rewtiting, the blameshifting, her justifications back then. She's describing the fog.


Totally agree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

Her "deep" analysis of her path to cheating is pretty obvious and trivial. Summary: she got close, it was nice, she forgot about, she offered to have sex with him, he rejected her, she ran home to you.

How about her answering these questions:

1. What if he said yes.
2. Why should you try with her? Hint: I/You love you/me isn't sufficient an answer.
3. How is she going to want to be treated in a year fom now? Will she still be fully transparent or does she think this is a temporary probation?

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

Dan,
This is a very balanced and constructive way to look at the marriage. It is also a cautionary tale. I have always believed - that if your spouse is healthy - HER sexual behavior towards you is a VERY accurate reflection of how bonded she is with you. So when a woman shuts down sexually - quickly - it means you have either done something very bad or she has attached to another male. 

Just a "note to self" for the future. While it is possible for a third cause to make this happen - a major life event - absent something obvious like that - you need to act firmly and decisively. The duration of impact - of a major life event - shows the strength of her bond to you. My "parent" died two years ago and that is why you have been celibate - really means: I wasn't that into you to begin with - and a death is a good excuse for shutting down a physical intimacy that I don't really want. 

I don't think you lose anything by giving her a chance. 



happydan said:


> I agree with almost all of your post, but she has been reassuring me. I left that out because I didn't know it was a big deal (being "just words" to me right now). Daily, she's been bombarding me with texts, and verbally at home, that she would never do this again. She sounds remorseful when she says it. She cries or is on the verge of crying when telling me, at times. I didn't mention that before because I've been looking for meaningful actions instead of words right now.
> Today she left me a voicemail, on her own accord, telling me: (paraphrasing here)
> She thought more about my questions from yesterday of how/why she did this. She spoke about how pre-OM, nothing was inherently wrong with our marriage to make her seek out another guy. She said the longer she spent studying/with the OM, and less time with me, she felt further apart from me and feelings started to emerge for the OM and she was afraid of telling me because she didn't want me to be angry. She then started ignoring our marriage's needs, telling herself she needed to be away from me to study more, which allowed her to justify to herself that our marriage wasn't working, which again allowed her to mentally push me aside while she was with the OM, making it easier for her to start the PA. She admitted that only when faced with rejection did she realize exactly what she had done, and hadn't thought of the consequences while it was happening, always pushing it out of her head while away from me. Again, ending with pleas to believe her it'd never happen again.
> ...so, much more of an explanation than I got yesterday.
> 
> It's all a lot to process. It's only been 1.5 weeks. I admit, pre-Dday, I was one of those people who thought "cheating = divorce, no exceptions." But then it actually happens to me, and...
> I'm convinced divorce is the only option. Then five minutes later, I'm telling myself reasons why we should give R a chance.
> 
> As I said before, I admit I'm looking for reasons to consider R.
> She does have a few things going for her,
> - telling me everything she did, in the PA-aspect (to be verified in a polygraph)
> - not a serial cheater (to be verified in polygraph, but I sincerely doubt she is)
> - she stopped studying her exam to focus on me, ever since Dday, because she wanted to
> - the previous 7 years were great, so I know the potential our marriage could rebuild too if we/she fixes our/herself through counseling
> On the other hand,
> - she so easily threw away everything we built together
> - only told me because she got rejected
> - after one year of marriage?!?!
> 
> The three things working against her are pretty big. *Huge*.
> But she's been doing enough to keep me from divorcing her outright.
> 
> 
> Update: As I was finishing typing this out, she texted me asking permission to buy something that was $50~. Because "I need to know whatever shes doing without me around - emotionally, financially, digitally, and whatever else I want"
> Again... doesn't convince me to go to R, but it's another action that keeps me from immediately filing from divorce. I do feel she's putting in effort, but don't know if it's enough (I don't know what to compare it to either, than just 'what feels right' to me)


----------



## Badblood

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> *Dan:*
> 
> Good morning.
> 
> Here’s a cynical view of this:
> 
> 1:
> *A lot of her arduous efforts to reconcile could stem from the fact that if you divorce, she will come out of this as an unmitigated idiot – she lost everything for nothing, and in a few months, got 2 men to reject her. Who wants to look back into their own lives and see such a nincompoop looking back?
> 
> How much of this reconciliation effort is about wanting YOU back? Difficult to tell for us, but might be easier to feel, for you.*
> 
> 2:
> The pattern of this affair –joint study – increased physical proximity – forgetting steady man – new love interest developing -crossing the line - and all that – is *a little too much like a high school romance, where you jump from one boy to new boy, driven by a hormonal buzz.
> 
> The way she explained their PA / physical intimacy also denotes a certain facetiousness about your marriage that does not behoove a wife (as if an affair itself behooves a wife! I am just dissecting), or a life partner serious about her responsibilities.* *Plus, if he had been a little more receptive, she would probably have escalated it until your marriage was blown (pun very much intended) away. Your marriage right now has a second lap because the Other Man decided she was good enough only for a fellatio or two.
> 
> And now, the way she explains how it happened also indicates an ingénue’s approach to the whole thing – if she were a seasoned cheat, she would not self-incriminate herself like this. *At the same time, she does not seem to be doing it because she wants complete comprehension / transparency. She seems to be blurting it out like a teenager – while explaining to you how she let it slip.
> 
> *And this goes for you too – a high school dating sort of flippant approach to your wife’s activities - how could you not be alarmed by this frequent cross-gender joint study sessions – please note that if they had used any context other than ‘study’, probably your spousal antenna would have been up.
> 
> If they had said they were discussing work, you would have questioned the quantum of time spent on it. If she had said: I could really TALK to him, and would like to do that often, you would have probably said no. But they use the ruse of ‘study’, and you let it go.
> 
> What I am getting at is: your wife’s EQ vis a vis matrimony, etc., might require a lot of temporization, and until that happens, this sort of a scenario repeating has a high likelihood.* Next time, it could be her work superior, who will substitute for the professor / teacher in high school whom girls crush on.
> 
> 3:
> From the overall psychography (been married only 1 year, and this sort of a shallow affair happening), what the posters here are saying – that she might have had this kind of dalliances many times during your 7-year courtship too, unbeknownst to you, seems very likely.
> 
> *Cynic’s inference:
> You decision to reconcile must factor in the likelihood of a replay of this scenario a few times more in your life, until she decides the repeat drama is not really worth the trouble, and resigns herself to life within the marriage. Age and maturity will also weigh in by then.*
> 
> Perhaps you two could manage to get together and get SERIOUS about matrimony, and rebuild a marriage with SERIOUS responsibilities towards each other.
> 
> Whichever way you decide, best of luck, Dan.
> 
> *Caveat:*
> Many BSs are ready to reconcile because they themselves are guilty of the same act, but were successful in keeping it a secret. *If that is the case, Dan, this might be a good time to tell her, so that she also knows the pain it causes, she also knows that she does not hold the patent for moral slips in the marriage, and realizes she also has to be CAREFUL with the marriage if she wants it to last. It might be just the right shock treatment required before a strong rebuilding.*
> 
> Is that the Case, Dan?


Cynical, yes , but an excellent post nonetheless.


----------



## Badblood

turnera said:


> And, as I said, that is a pipe dream. Almost never happens.
> 
> Look, if he wants to divorce her, I support him. If he wants to consider his options first and find a way to fix things, I support him. HIS choice.


 Bullsh*t. It happens in a great many marriages that have known infidelity. Many of our veteran posters on TAM, Beowulf, for example, are probably only married still, because the WS did most of the initial heavy lifting. Without this initial show of remorse, and renewed commitment, R would likely be close to impossible.Those marriages where the BS does the work, usually don't survive. Don't believe me, go to "Marriage Builders" or any other reputable site and look for yourself.


----------



## happydan

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> *Dan:* Is that the Case, Dan?


Most definitely not!



Still trying to digest everything being said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Badblood

Take your time, Pardner.


----------



## carpenoctem

happydan said:


> Most definitely not!
> 
> 
> 
> Still trying to digest everything being said.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Glad to hear that, Dan.

I impudently mistook your patience for probable penitence.

Please accept my apology, my brother.


----------



## Beowulf

happydan said:


> Most definitely not!
> 
> 
> 
> Still trying to digest everything being said.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good. Understand I'm not trying to persuade you one way or another as to the course you should take. In my case R was the best thing that could have happened and I am truly happy. In the case of others divorce was the best course of action. But in every case the individual has to feel they made the best decision for themselves. R is extremely hard but the reward is a wonderful life with a great life partner. Divorce may be less work immediately but its just as painful and the real work then is finding and cultivating a new relationship. Either way it has to be something you are personally comfortable with.


----------



## bandit.45

wifeinsa said:


> I belive she is telling you the truth. I dont know why she would admit to a kiss and oral but not reguarl sex. it just does not make sence if she were gonna hide things she would just not say anything.
> 
> My husband started an emonational affair. He did meet the women, (and x) he claims he did not kiss her or anything (still not 100 percent sure) but in my eyes it was cheating.
> 
> I told him he had to cease all contact. Also He (since he messed up) needed to find us a marrage therpist, and also find a seperate person for himself.
> 
> He said he was willing to do anything to save the marrage.
> So he did what i asked.
> 
> Our therpist said that affairs are not about sex, there is usually a problem in the marraige. She said going outside the marriage is of couse wrong, but its usually a symptom of problems not the main problem.
> 
> Our therpist was great. We went to our first session 3 days after i cought him. I could barly look him in the eye, i had cried for 2 days straight. A few months later i started to see the light. There were things we both needed to work on. Now i feel like we are actually closer. I am still pissed about what he did. But we had been in trouble long before this happened. we were distant, or he was i guess. he had issues with me but would not tell me, so intead he reached out to this other women. Now he can really be honest and tell me stuff, good and bad. Whats stupid is the issues he as with me i felt like were non issues, like if would say this or that bothers me i would have been willing to fix it, but he tried to keep the peace and say nothing. So he got bitter and resentful, then went do the idot path of talking to someone else.
> 
> Anyway i would demand no contact with the guy, and therapy. If she does it then maybe you have a shot (if you think you can learn to forgive someday) if she doesnt then she is sending you more clear messages about her commitment to your marriage.


Is this the same husband you cheated on while he was deployed?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Shaggy said:


> Her "deep" analysis of her path to cheating is pretty obvious and trivial. Summary: she got close, it was nice, she forgot about, she offered to have sex with him, he rejected her, she ran home to you.


In fact, VERY typical of just about EVERYONE who wanders into an affair.

Look into phone counseling with Dr Harley or one of his kids (marriagebuilders.com - but avoid their forums, you'll get crucified). They, more than anyone else I know, have made a specialization of building a plan for rebuilding a marriage after infidelity. It ain't cheap, but a lot cheaper than a divorce. 

Get his book His Needs Her Needs and read it TOGETHER. I've found over the years that nearly ALL people get married and just expect it to ride the storms, without realizing what it takes to WORK on a marriage so that both people are so happy that they never even consider wandering into an affair.


----------



## bandit.45

wifeinsa said:


> No. The time i cheated was with my first husband. I remarried several years later. This issue i am talking about on this post is with my second husband.


Gotcha.


----------



## DanG

RE: "She spoke about how pre-OM, nothing was inherently wrong with our marriage to make her seek out another guy. She said the longer she spent studying/with the OM, and less time with me, she felt further apart from me and feelings started to emerge for the OM and she was afraid of telling me because she didn't want me to be angry. She then started ignoring our marriage's needs, telling herself she needed to be away from me to study more, which allowed her to justify to herself that our marriage wasn't working, which again allowed her to mentally push me aside while she was with the OM, making it easier for her to start the PA."

She is telling the truth. This "isolation" study scenario and a good dose of dopomine is ALWAYS rife for an affair. Spouses don't allow spouses to be/go into these situations any more than they let them go on solo vacations, co-ed business trips, or trips to Vegas. (It may be that back in the day before pre-internet forums that these things didn't "occur" after people got married. But now, we all know better, don't we?  )

To her credit she did freely (as far as we know) come to Dan and voluntarily admit her *human* error. And, she is seemly trying to pull the marriage back together by volunteering to do anything and everything she can. Is it preferable that both now go back into the SMP and start over with another unknown human? Or, is it better to proceed together knowing that that are both human and ONE OF THE MANY things they need to know about each other?


----------



## happydan

Thanks everyone, I had to take a couple days and think things over. Many people had some good questions to ask and I needed the time to ask my WW, and also do some self-reflection of what _I_ want.



Beowulf said:


> You mentioned counseling. What form of counseling? Marriage counseling? Individual counseling?


She's scheduled some IC for next week.



Beowulf said:


> Is she prepared to continue transparency for the entirety of the marriage if you so choose? Have you asked her this?


She said she's ok with that. Problem is, ever since year 2 together, we've operated as an open book. From then on I already knew all her passwords, and she knew mine. We always kept a transparent relationship, and told each other we'd stay that way forever.
...and this _still_ happened! More on this later.



Beowulf said:


> What about work situations? If she could this easily lower her boundaries in just a study situation how will she react being approached by an amorous coworker?
> 
> It seems like her boundaries need a lot of work. Are you willing to spend the next two to five years constantly checking up on her to verify her whereabouts?


She said she would do her part on this, and let me know every address she goes to/is at, whenever I want to know it. As for her work, I guess _I_ can't stop that, but she told me she's never cheating again, with anyone, in our marriage or any other relationship (if I choose to divorce her). She said she never wants to put someone she loves through this ever again.



Beowulf said:


> For quite a while every time your wife is not in physical proximity to you you are going to wonder and worry about where she is and who she is with. Are you prepared for the eventual triggers and mind movies that you will have to face especially when she is absent from you?


I am prepared to deal with this, I consider myself a strong person. If I commit myself to something, I put as much effort as I can into it. I'm worried more about my wife caving in again, before issues start with me.
Side note: I don't think I mentioned this before. But the OM has the same name as me! It hasn't been a trigger for me... but still...ugh!



[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> 1:
> *How much of this reconciliation effort is about wanting YOU back? Difficult to tell for us, but might be easier to feel, for you.*


I feel that she wants me back. The past couple days, when I've felt distant from her, don't want her around, etc, her comeback is to stand her ground and say "but I'm still your wife". It's been a strangely powerful statement. She says it in a way that says, "Yes, I did something wrong, but we're still here, and I'm not leaving you".
That's just one example. But the _feeling_ I get is that she genuinely wants me back for _me_, and not other superficial reasons.



[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> 2:
> *And this goes for you too – a high school dating sort of flippant approach to your wife’s activities - how could you not be alarmed by this frequent cross-gender joint study sessions – please note that if they had used any context other than ‘study’, probably your spousal antenna would have been up.
> 
> If they had said they were discussing work, you would have questioned the quantum of time spent on it. If she had said: I could really TALK to him, and would like to do that often, you would have probably said no. But they use the ruse of ‘study’, and you let it go.*


Very true, I never even thought about it like that. But because she said "study", I totally let her do whatever she wanted under that reason. It goes back to what I said above, about how open we kept ourselves, from early on. I think as time went on, that openness extended to us having no boundaries (she let me do whatever I wanted as well). We thought that made us special, that we could trust each other so much.
Yes - big mistake, I know now, a little too late. But that's where it came from, at least on my end. I got so used to us being "completely open" and knowing "everything about each other", that I was blinded that she could stray from me.



[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> Glad to hear that, Dan.
> 
> I impudently mistook your patience for probable penitence.
> 
> Please accept my apology, my brother.


No worries! I know everyone is just trying to help out!



Shaggy said:


> Her "deep" analysis of her path to cheating is pretty obvious and trivial. Summary: she got close, it was nice, she forgot about, she offered to have sex with him, he rejected her, she ran home to you.
> 
> How about her answering these questions:
> 
> 1. What if he said yes.
> 2. Why should you try with her? Hint: I/You love you/me isn't sufficient an answer.
> 3. How is she going to want to be treated in a year fom now? Will she still be fully transparent or does she think this is a temporary probation?


1. I've mentioned before, I told her for all intents and purposes, I consider that they did. And she recognizes that if she got what she want out of it (at the time), it probably would have continue'd longer. And yes, this thought sickens me. But I also have said before I don't like to live to much into the world of "what if". I know what happened, and how far she was willing go. After that, it's all "what if"
2. I touched on this in an earlier post, but in recap, she seems genuine about winning me back, and pre-OM neither of us had any major issues with each other, and were building a great foundation to start the rest of our lives on. (that's in recap, more details in previous post)
3. She understands she's caused long lasting damage that will take years to help reconcile. And even then, she knows that decades from now I might still get a trigger.



Acabado said:


> She's not telling you *why* (beyond she got attached to OM and then horny), she likely needs time, self examination, perspective and a good, challenging IC for this. She's telling you *"how"*. That's a good start in my book. She sees now clearly _how_ it happened for her. The detachment, the self gaslighting, the rewtiting, the blameshifting, her justifications back then. She's describing the fog.


She's hoping to find those answers through IC, which she'll be starting soon. From there we're going to decide on MC or not.


Now, more of my own thoughts:
For sake of argument, I'm accepting two things as fact right now: That she's told me everything that happened in her affair, and that she's never cheated on me in the past. If anyone wants to give me more advice, I ask you to assume those things as well. I am working on setting up a polygraph to confirm those (and some other) things. IF my WW is lying about those things, it's automatic divorce, and she's aware of that. I gave her a chance to "come clean", and she said there was nothing more to be said, on that. So for the moment, I'd like to assume that's the truth, because if she lied, it's over anyway and you don't need to convince me of that anymore!

So...I'm still looking for reasons to do R. I only want to commit to R if I sense my WW is not stringing me along - ready and willing to put in major effort.

She's put the OM behind her. She's had no contact, doesn't want to contact, and has no urge to contact him again. She's going to start IC. MC to possibly come later. She's been saying all the right things. We've set up fresh boundaries.

She's been transparent about everything. Seeing a friend? She tells me the address. Buying something when I'm not around? She let's me know, so I can approve the purchase. I have access to everything in her digital life (e-mail, facebook, phone, etc). My problem with this is, as mentioned above, this is similar to how things were pre-affair. We already had full openness between us (except for the friend/address and buying things, that's new). So, it really doesn't feel any different from before, as far as transparency goes. The only difference now is I'll have to patrol that digital life more often, and make sure she isn't starting anything new

She asked to meet me for lunch, which we've never done before (her work and my work are just out of reach for a lunch meet-up on most days). I accepted, and so that happened yesterday. We didn't talk much (I wasn't in the mood to), but again, the effort on her part was there.

Is that enough? Does it feel to others that she's serious about giving R a chance? For whatever reason, it doesn't _feel_ enough to me. But I also don't know what to expect. I think a lot of that has to do with the transparency thing. For most couples, I read on here, that seems like the tough hill to cross. For me, it feels more like "things going back to normal" since it's what we did pre-affiar anyway, and that didn't stop her the first time!

I'll end by saying something that really offended me. She's been begging me to sleep in our bed together again. I finally told her yesterday she could... but only if we used a long pillow we have to separate us. She said the pillow smelt moldy and she didn't want to use it. I couldn't smell it (granted, my nose sucks). I said it has to be pillow-separation, or she had to go back to the sofa. She chose the sofa because she "couldn't stand the smell of the pillow". My thought is, even if the pillow did smell, she has to take that offer, right? She can't "suffer" through that to sleep closer to me?
I told her my opinion in the morning (was today), and she said she didn't see it that way, and that she'd sleep with the pillow separation now, if I still wanted it. But she should have thought about that the first time, right? I kinda feel like she thought an inanimate object was more important than me.
Sorry, that's probably more of a rant and might be trivial. She has been putting in good effort in other areas, as I mentioned.


[wow, super long post! didn't realize that got so big!]


----------



## turnera

What it sounds like is your wife is used to living an independent life, alongside you, and thinking ON her own, not as a COUPLE. Sure you had transparency, but she also had a hell of a lot of freedom. So, now that you are asking her to work as a team, it's going to be hard for her to start playing on your team, thinking about YOU, thinking of YOUR needs first.

fwiw, I recommend that instead of, or at least alongside of, the IC, you call up the Harleys at marriagebuilders.com (avoid their toxic forum) and sign up for about 5 phone consultations. They specialize in couples going through infidelity issues and from what I've heard, you accomplish more in a couple hours with them than in months of MC.


----------



## TDSC60

A young wife of about a year does not do what she has done if everything was OK with the marriage. Unless she has some deep mental issues that even she does not admit or recognize.

A very wise mental health professional once told me - " No one spouse can meet 100% of the "needs" of another spouse. It is what the spouse does when those "needs" are not met that shows their true character."

I can see one thing that was missing immediately from your posts. Honesty. She lied (probably by omission) about her feelings for the OM from day one. She lied to continue her contact with him. She lied about her intentions with him. She lied when she said "feelings started to emerge for the OM and she was afraid of telling me because she didn't want me to be angry." The truth is that she didn't want you to put a stop to her "study dates". Total lack of honesty from her through this whole affair. So is she telling you the truth now or is she bullsh*ting you to get what she thinks she wants (marriage) yet again?

Basically I do not see either of you pin pointing what was lacking in the marriage that led her to seek out a physical relationship with another man.

You know there is something missing (probably the real reason why). You can "feel" it. You have to find out what that is before you can work to rebuild the marriage.

I wish you the best whatever you decide to do. But I don't think you or your wife are truly ready to R yet. 

This doesn't mean you have to divorce and it doesn't mean you have to commit to reconcile right away. If you haven't made up your mind then don't do either. Try IC and MC if you want. Do not be forced to make a decision or feel that you have to make a choice until YOU are ready. Remember, you control your life, no one else does.

Edit: Of course it could be that she is a woman who is simply addicted to attention from males. She has to feel wanted by every attract male she encounters. If she doesn't feel it - she turns up the heat - chasing them until she gets confirmation that they want her. If this is the case - get out.


----------



## workindad

Good luck HD. I hope you find peace. You have been given some gret advice. Make the best of it. 

WD


----------



## MEM2020

HD,
You are clearly a decent guy. From reading your posts, I like you. Regarding the pillow - I want you to think about something. She was putting herself out there asking to share your bed. And it wasn't her first request. 

While it is your right to insist on a pillow - you were being hurtful. She feels BAD. And that response - made her feel worse. So she declined. Guess what - she needs to have her own boundaries as to what she finds acceptable in this situation. 




happydan said:


> Thanks everyone, I had to take a couple days and think things over. Many people had some good questions to ask and I needed the time to ask my WW, and also do some self-reflection of what _I_ want.
> 
> 
> 
> She's scheduled some IC for next week.
> 
> 
> 
> She said she's ok with that. Problem is, ever since year 2 together, we've operated as an open book. From then on I already knew all her passwords, and she knew mine. We always kept a transparent relationship, and told each other we'd stay that way forever.
> ...and this _still_ happened! More on this later.
> 
> 
> 
> She said she would do her part on this, and let me know every address she goes to/is at, whenever I want to know it. As for her work, I guess *I* can't stop that, but she told me she's never cheating again, with anyone, in our marriage or any other relationship (if I choose to divorce her). She said she never wants to put someone she loves through this ever again.
> 
> 
> 
> I am prepared to deal with this, I consider myself a strong person. If I commit myself to something, I put as much effort as I can into it. I'm worried more about my wife caving in again, before issues start with me.
> Side note: I don't think I mentioned this before. But the OM has the same name as me! It hasn't been a trigger for me... but still...ugh!
> 
> 
> 
> I feel that she wants me back. The past couple days, when I've felt distant from her, don't want her around, etc, her comeback is to stand her ground and say "but I'm still your wife". It's been a strangely powerful statement. She says it in a way that says, "Yes, I did something wrong, but we're still here, and I'm not leaving you".
> That's just one example. But the _feeling_ I get is that she genuinely wants me back for _me_, and not other superficial reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> Very true, I never even thought about it like that. But because she said "study", I totally let her do whatever she wanted under that reason. It goes back to what I said above, about how open we kept ourselves, from early on. I think as time went on, that openness extended to us having no boundaries (she let me do whatever I wanted as well). We thought that made us special, that we could trust each other so much.
> Yes - big mistake, I know now, a little too late. But that's where it came from, at least on my end. I got so used to us being "completely open" and knowing "everything about each other", that I was blinded that she could stray from me.
> 
> 
> 
> No worries! I know everyone is just trying to help out!
> 
> 
> 
> 1. I've mentioned before, I told her for all intents and purposes, I consider that they did. And she recognizes that if she got what she want out of it (at the time), it probably would have continue'd longer. And yes, this thought sickens me. But I also have said before I don't like to live to much into the world of "what if". I know what happened, and how far she was willing go. After that, it's all "what if"
> 2. I touched on this in an earlier post, but in recap, she seems genuine about winning me back, and pre-OM neither of us had any major issues with each other, and were building a great foundation to start the rest of our lives on. (that's in recap, more details in previous post)
> 3. She understands she's caused long lasting damage that will take years to help reconcile. And even then, she knows that decades from now I might still get a trigger.
> 
> 
> 
> She's hoping to find those answers through IC, which she'll be starting soon. From there we're going to decide on MC or not.
> 
> 
> Now, more of my own thoughts:
> For sake of argument, I'm accepting two things as fact right now: That she's told me everything that happened in her affair, and that she's never cheated on me in the past. If anyone wants to give me more advice, I ask you to assume those things as well. I am working on setting up a polygraph to confirm those (and some other) things. IF my WW is lying about those things, it's automatic divorce, and she's aware of that. I gave her a chance to "come clean", and she said there was nothing more to be said, on that. So for the moment, I'd like to assume that's the truth, because if she lied, it's over anyway and you don't need to convince me of that anymore!
> 
> So...I'm still looking for reasons to do R. I only want to commit to R if I sense my WW is not stringing me along - ready and willing to put in major effort.
> 
> She's put the OM behind her. She's had no contact, doesn't want to contact, and has no urge to contact him again. She's going to start IC. MC to possibly come later. She's been saying all the right things. We've set up fresh boundaries.
> 
> She's been transparent about everything. Seeing a friend? She tells me the address. Buying something when I'm not around? She let's me know, so I can approve the purchase. I have access to everything in her digital life (e-mail, facebook, phone, etc). My problem with this is, as mentioned above, this is similar to how things were pre-affair. We already had full openness between us (except for the friend/address and buying things, that's new). So, it really doesn't feel any different from before, as far as transparency goes. The only difference now is I'll have to patrol that digital life more often, and make sure she isn't starting anything new
> 
> She asked to meet me for lunch, which we've never done before (her work and my work are just out of reach for a lunch meet-up on most days). I accepted, and so that happened yesterday. We didn't talk much (I wasn't in the mood to), but again, the effort on her part was there.
> 
> Is that enough? Does it feel to others that she's serious about giving R a chance? For whatever reason, it doesn't _feel_ enough to me. But I also don't know what to expect. I think a lot of that has to do with the transparency thing. For most couples, I read on here, that seems like the tough hill to cross. For me, it feels more like "things going back to normal" since it's what we did pre-affiar anyway, and that didn't stop her the first time!
> 
> I'll end by saying something that really offended me. She's been begging me to sleep in our bed together again. I finally told her yesterday she could... but only if we used a long pillow we have to separate us. She said the pillow smelt moldy and she didn't want to use it. I couldn't smell it (granted, my nose sucks). I said it has to be pillow-separation, or she had to go back to the sofa. She chose the sofa because she "couldn't stand the smell of the pillow". My thought is, even if the pillow did smell, she has to take that offer, right? She can't "suffer" through that to sleep closer to me?
> I told her my opinion in the morning (was today), and she said she didn't see it that way, and that she'd sleep with the pillow separation now, if I still wanted it. But she should have thought about that the first time, right? I kinda feel like she thought an inanimate object was more important than me.
> Sorry, that's probably more of a rant and might be trivial. She has been putting in good effort in other areas, as I mentioned.
> 
> 
> [wow, super long post! didn't realize that got so big!]


----------



## happydan

MEM11363 said:


> HD,
> You are clearly a decent guy. From reading your posts, I like you. Regarding the pillow - I want you to think about something. She was putting herself out there asking to share your bed. And it wasn't her first request.
> 
> While it is your right to insist on a pillow - you were being hurtful. She feels BAD. And that response - made her feel worse. So she declined. Guess what - she needs to have her own boundaries as to what she finds acceptable in this situation.


Fair enough! It's been hard for me to focus on her feelings/thoughts at this point. I won't look too much into that then.


----------



## Jibril

I'm a bit conflicted about the pillow thing, actually. I see where MEM11363 is coming from, but at the same time...

I mean, she willingly put some stranger's smelly, sweaty [email protected]#$ in her mouth, but she can't sleep with her husband on a moldy pillow? _Really_?

Maybe I'm thinking selfishly, but I sense defiance, not hurt, from her choosing to sleep on the sofa.


----------



## sandc

Jibril said:


> I'm a bit conflicted about the pillow thing, actually. I see where MEM11363 is coming from, but at the same time...
> 
> I mean, she willingly put some stranger's smelly, sweaty [email protected]#$ in her mouth, but she can't sleep with her husband on a moldy pillow? _Really_?
> 
> Maybe I'm thinking selfishly, but I sense defiance, not hurt, from her choosing to sleep on the sofa.


:iagree:

I don't know... the whole pillow thing makes me think too. It really is a minor issue but her approach to it is what bothers me. Jibrill is right, she could swallow his schlong but not sleep next to a pillow that smelt slightly. 

Let me ask you HappyDan, is she wracked with guilt? Is she crying a lot? She seems kind of disconnected from the whole thing unless that's just the way you write it. If it were my wife trying to get me back she would begging, crying, and wracked with guilt much of the time. Your wife seems very relaxed in her approach to R. I'm hoping the IC will dig something out of her.


----------



## Shaggy

If you weren't married would you still be around?


----------



## happyman64

Good point Mem. 

Just remember HD, even though she is the cheater and has to o the heavy lifting it takes 2 to reconcile the marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Beowulf

You're right HD, something is missing. I'm not sure exactly what it is. Not sure if its her or just not being conveyed by your posts. I don't know if you've looked around at other threads but I am usually the first and biggest proponent for R. But in your thread I've been very hesitant to give you advice leaning toward R. Maybe sandc and jabril are right. What's missing is a lack of humility. One thing that happens after something like this is that there needs to be a complete power shift in favor of the BS. Even if you've tried to achieve equality before there cannot be equality now. The WS must in effect subjugate themselves to the will of the BS for a time. That means all defensiveness, all defiance, anything that can be construed as stemming from selfishness needs to be suppressed if not completely eliminated. I'm not feeling it from your posts. I'm not feeling that remorse. Again, maybe you're not conveying it but I suspect if it were there you would see it also and somehow it would be felt in your posts. And while I feel the pillow thing is a little bit hurtful on your part, her reaction seems to not be quite right either.

Do you see her crying or upset when she doesn't think you are around or see her? When you discuss the marriage does she seem upset or just sorry? There is a difference. I guess what I'm feeling is that either she has a lack of empathy for the pain she has caused you or you aren't really feeling that empathy from her. I'm honestly not sure which it is but I agree the two of you aren't ready for R.


----------



## Chaparral

Not only would I not come close to sleeping with a moldy pillow, it would be outside in the trash. Mold is a carcinogen and raises havoc with allergies. 

Either tell her she can sleep with you or tell her to get out and quit being trivial.

Did you read MMSL and NMMNG? It doesn't sound like it. All of us can use improvement.


----------



## MEM2020

I disagree with these other posters. Yes she did something really bad. That doesn't mean she has forfeited all her rights. 

Me - personally - I would not sleep in the same bed with someone who was averse to the idea of us accidentally touching one another. 



happydan said:


> Fair enough! It's been hard for me to focus on her feelings/thoughts at this point. I won't look too much into that then.


----------



## Beowulf

MEM11363 said:


> I disagree with these other posters. Yes she did something really bad. That doesn't mean she has forfeited all her rights.
> 
> Me - personally - I would not sleep in the same bed with someone who was averse to the idea of us accidentally touching one another.


In effect I agree with you which is why I said that his request for the pillow was hurtful. But her reaction wasn't quite right either. I would have gone and slept on the couch as well rather than share a bed with someone who isn't ready. But I would have expressed those feelings rather than just make an excuse about a moldy pillow. I guess that's what I meant by her reaction wasn't quite right. Its almost like there is a huge language barrier here. Neither one seems willing or capable of bridging the gap which is why I said they're not ready to go through R yet.


----------



## MEM2020

B,
Sorry - I didn't read your earlier post carefully. I agree that she cannot get in the habit of even little white lies. I will admit though, my sense of smell is bad. Wife's is great. Possible she was telling truth. He can gently ask. And then encourage her to be honest even if painful.




Beowulf said:


> In effect I agree with you which is why I said that his request for the pillow was hurtful. But her reaction wasn't quite right either. I would have gone and slept on the couch as well rather than share a bed with someone who isn't ready. But I would have expressed those feelings rather than just make an excuse about a moldy pillow. I guess that's what I meant by her reaction wasn't quite right. Its almost like there is a huge language barrier here. Neither one seems willing or capable of bridging the gap which is why I said they're not ready to go through R yet.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Beowulf

MEM11363 said:


> B,
> Sorry - I didn't read your earlier post carefully. I agree that she cannot get in the habit of even little white lies. I will admit though, my sense of smell is bad. Wife's is great. Possible she was telling truth. He can gently ask. And then encourage her to be honest even if painful.
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Its a biological fact that women have a better sense of smell than men (weird huh?). So the pillow may very well have been musty. But that's probably not the reason she slept on the couch. And she needs to open up in order for them to heal. Like I said, I just feel like there is something "off."


----------



## Phenix70

warlock07 said:


> I would be interested if there were other reasons that she confessed other than guilt.(got caught etc) Maybe you should try talking to this OM.


This what I've been wondering all along, why the need to come clean with the cheating?
There's more here than what she's offered so far, how many WS's actually tell the whole truth & nothing but the truth when discussing the cheating? 
Maybe the OM can shed some light on the situation?


----------



## happydan

Phenix70 said:


> Maybe the OM can shed some light on the situation?


I could do that. While my WW has gone NC (blocked him on facebook, deleted e-mail and phone #), I still have his number in my phone (WW gave it to me a while back, when they had just met). I've been lazy about deleting it. Still, I don't think I want to do that. I think I'm ok waiting this out until a polygraph, to confirm there. And I should probably delete that number sooner rather than later...




chapparal said:


> Not only would I not come close to sleeping with a moldy pillow, it would be outside in the trash. Mold is a carcinogen and raises havoc with allergies.
> 
> Either tell her she can sleep with you or tell her to get out and quit being trivial.
> 
> Did you read MMSL and NMMNG? It doesn't sound like it. All of us can use improvement.





Beowulf said:


> Its a biological fact that women have a better sense of smell than men (weird huh?). So the pillow may very well have been musty. But that's probably not the reason she slept on the couch. And she needs to open up in order for them to heal. Like I said, I just feel like there is something "off."


I still don't think it was 'moldy', because I agree, that would be in the trash, and it'd be gross. I thought it was weird that I couldn't smell anything bad about it (and still don't), but like I said... my nose sucks. I couldn't smell a thing, but maybe she did. I'm ready to let this go, and admit that I was more in the wrong on this one. I've just been searching so hard for reasons to try R, that I guess I've been hypersensitive to every little decision she makes.
That said, as Beowulf mentioned, I still felt something was off in her response. 



Beowulf said:


> Do you see her crying or upset when she doesn't think you are around or see her? When you discuss the marriage does she seem upset or just sorry? There is a difference. I guess what I'm feeling is that either she has a lack of empathy for the pain she has caused you or you aren't really feeling that empathy from her. I'm honestly not sure which it is but I agree the two of you aren't ready for R.


She's does seem upset. She's done her share of crying at home, when talking about us. She's told me how she's cried at work a few times too. There's been a few times I stayed at work since I wasn't ready to go home yet (usually reading TAM), and she was very disappointed when I did that, always wanting me home to spend time together, even if we don't talk. She told me how she just wants to be in the same room as me. 

I've said before, it seems like she's trying. Am I the one holding too big of expectations?


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## MEM2020

Dan,
I am going to send you a PM




happydan said:


> I could do that. While my WW has gone NC (blocked him on facebook, deleted e-mail and phone #), I still have his number in my phone (WW gave it to me a while back, when they had just met). I've been lazy about deleting it. Still, I don't think I want to do that. I think I'm ok waiting this out until a polygraph, to confirm there. And I should probably delete that number sooner rather than later...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I still don't think it was 'moldy', because I agree, that would be in the trash, and it'd be gross. I thought it was weird that I couldn't smell anything bad about it (and still don't), but like I said... my nose sucks. I couldn't smell a thing, but maybe she did. I'm ready to let this go, and admit that I was more in the wrong on this one. I've just been searching so hard for reasons to try R, that I guess I've been hypersensitive to every little decision she makes.
> That said, as Beowulf mentioned, I still felt something was off in her response.
> 
> 
> 
> She's does seem upset. She's done her share of crying at home, when talking about us. She's told me how she's cried at work a few times too. There's been a few times I stayed at work since I wasn't ready to go home yet (usually reading TAM), and she was very disappointed when I did that, always wanting me home to spend time together, even if we don't talk. She told me how she just wants to be in the same room as me.
> 
> I've said before, it seems like she's trying. Am I the one holding too big of expectations?


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## Phenix70

From your posts, I'm getting the feeling that you're not really into the R with your wife.
I'm getting the sense that you're not exactly angry, not indifferent, more like detached, please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Badblood

Bottomline, the pillow thing is a load of crap. When I finally decided on divorce, my ex actually begged on her belly for a chance to sleep in the same bed, and Dan's wife rejected the opportunity to be closer because of a smelly pillow? WTF? It sounds more like defiance than remorse.


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## bandit.45

Badblood said:


> Bottomline, the pillow thing is a load of crap. When I finally decided on divorce, my ex actually begged on her belly for a chance to sleep in the same bed, and Dan's wife rejected the opportunity to be closer because of a smelly pillow? WTF? It sounds more like defiance than remorse.


She was going to try to have sex with him in order to feel like she had some control over her situation. He took that control away and she got pissed. Typical cheater behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jnj express

She just doesn't get to have it like it was before all of this happened---her life was good,things were good, her lifestyle made her comfortable, you and she took care of each other, it was a good mge.

She has destroyed all of that---and now in a not so very long period of time, she wants it back the way it was----she just wants her nice/cushy lifestyle back---so she cries, and she is monitered tightly, but does that come anywhere near to accountability, for causing you nightmares for possibly the rest of your life, as you are stuck with pictures of whatn she has done with the other man.

In a normal mge, she would be doing all the things she now does, normally, now is she thinking that she has to do them, to be able to stay in the mge

Or what does she think, what does she really think deep down, after having performed oral, and heavy passionate kissing on another man, does she really love you, or does she just want her nice cushy lifestyle to stay the way it is???????


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## Count of Monte Cristo

bandit.45 said:


> She was going to try to have sex with him in order to feel like she had some control over her situation. He took that control away and she got pissed. Typical cheater behavior.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

One of the best thing that I did (six months before dday) was to take back control of my sex life. I got tired of putting up with her giving me sex once or twice a month so I told her that I would just not have sex with her. After twenty years of having her control my sex life this was very liberating.


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## happydan

Phenix70 said:


> From your posts, I'm getting the feeling that you're not really into the R with your wife.
> I'm getting the sense that you're not exactly angry, not indifferent, more like detached, please correct me if I'm wrong.


It's been a few days since my last post, and what Phenix said above pretty much sums up my current feelings, and it hasn't changed in days. In detail:

My WW is still trying, but is missing that "it" that I'm looking for to convince me into R. I do want R, but only if I sense promise for some sort of future (and I recognize that entering R doesn't mean it's a slam dunk that it'll work out in the end). She's in IC now, so maybe that will start to help.

Still, without that "it" I've been waiting for, I feel like I've fallen into some sort of funk. I'm not angry (although I do have my moments/triggers), I'm not indifferent (because I am waiting to be convinced for R), but I do feel a little detached. There's just an emptiness inside. Maybe this is just a phase as well? Is it normal to just feel detached from the situation? 

Could it be a self-defense mechanism? Not wanting to allow myself to come close to someone who's just hurt me so much? 
My WW and I have had some very productive talks lately, and I feel less detached while around her, and do feel closer to her at those times... but nothing has me jumping up and saying "Yes, I want to rebuild my relationship with this woman!" I've told my WW I feel she's being to casual about this process. It's like she's making all the right moves, doing the right actions, but I don't sense she's putting in 100% behind it (even though I do feel she is truly remorseful about it, if that makes any sense). Maybe her IC will help...


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## Saffron

You don't need to make any decisions right now, your emotions can easily change from hour to hour. I'm a BS and it's been over a year and a half since d-day and I still have random moments wondering if we can truly R. The 2-5 year time span for R is not an overestimate. I allow myself those moments of doubt, because I know soon enough I'll feel confident once again. The doubtful moments keep getting fewer and farther inbetween though, so I'm not surprised you're leaning more towards D than R right now. Give yourself time before making a choice either way.

Surprisingly, it isn't the mind movies that trip me up. So far the two things I worry about, and what you might want to consider moving forward . . .

1) The boundary issue- My husband (the WS) had horrible boundaries and no clue what "commitment" really entailed. He was also pretty selfish and self-centered. MC and IC are helping him tackle these issues, but it boils down to putting someone else's wants/need before your own. In the past, if he saw something as "low priority" and I saw it as "high priority", it usually was treated as he saw it... low. Boundaries can get crossed when your partner doesn't have the same level of priority attachted to certain situations. So my H is vigilant now, but my moments of doubt come when I wonder if he'll still be so carefull 5 or 10 years down the road.

My point.... boundary issues are a long hard issue to work on in a relationship. My H agrees and knows this is something he'll have to stay vigilant on for the long haul. He's a people pleaser and he used to be more concerned about pleasing others than pleasing me. It's partly about wanting to be liked by everyone and loads of issues from childhood (his Dad divorced his Mom and choose to live out of State with the OW, lots to chew on in therapy), still no excuse but looking into your WS's past in therapy may unearth some hidden issues.

My second concern while in R . . .

2. Gone is the fantasy, innocence, and blissful ignorance - For the rest of your relationship, you will no longer be able to think that your spouse would always want you over all others. 

I call it a fantasy, because given the right situation, of course your spouse could find interest in someone else. Before infidelity, we're blissfully ignorant in our innocence thinking our spouses would never stray. I can only speak for myself, but I'm pretty sure I won't ever feel that way again. Is that a bad thing? No, because I'll take better care of my marriage and know it's always a work in progress. Do I want to feel that blissfully ignorant fantasy again? That's where I wonder about R, because even though I like my hard earned knowledge about infidelity, sometimes I want to have that feeling back. The feeling that someone loves you so much, they would never cheat on you. But then I remember, I felt that way once before and look what it got me. 

Not sure this gives you any insight into what R is like longterm, but it's a little snapshot of the future. It's not easy and your WS will need to realize it's a part of your marriage now. I'm sure you're already starting to feel the permanent affects of her A, but she might not realize how long lasting this will be.


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## turnera

It's really common for a cheater to not 'get it' for a long while, so be patient on that front. You're in no rush.


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## anonymouskitty

glad to see you're back turnera


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## Phenix70

happydan said:


> Could it be a self-defense mechanism? Not wanting to allow myself to come close to someone who's just hurt me so much?
> My WW and I have had some very productive talks lately, and I feel less detached while around her, and do feel closer to her at those times... but nothing has me jumping up and saying "Yes, I want to rebuild my relationship with this woman!" *I've told my WW I feel she's being to casual about this process. It's like she's making all the right moves, doing the right actions, but I don't sense she's putting in 100% behind it* (even though I do feel she is truly remorseful about it, if that makes any sense). Maybe her IC will help...


I'm not even in your marriage & that's the feeling I'm getting just from your posts, so I can imagine this must be very difficult for you.
Does it seem as if you hear her saying all the right things, but her body language isn't matching up?
I think people are more intuitive than they give themselves credit for, it's very possible that you're picking up on her non-verbal clues & that's why things feel off to you. 
This maybe a wait & see type of situation, wait & see if her demeanor improves or declines, it's been my experience that people who are misrepresenting themselves will ultimately slip because they can't keep up the pretense. 
Those people would be your average person, not the sociopaths who by their vary nature misrepresent themselves.


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## TDSC60

What is the "it" that you are waiting for? What is the "it" that is missing even though she is saying the right things and doing the right things.

If you bump against someone in a grocery store because you didn't see where you are going, you say "I'm sorry". A comment that is expected, not because you are deeply sorry or guilty for what you did, but because it is 100% the right thing to do. No harm, no foul.

If you do something that causes pain, harm or injury to another person that same "I'm sorry" takes on a whole new meaning. You are truly sorry that your actions are the source of pain or injury. This time you truly, deeply regret your actions and the pain they cause another person. 

The difference is passion, intensity, and empathy. You don't see these things in your wife. 

You do not "feel" she is really telling you how she feels or how she felt while planning the affair. In short, you do not believe her even though she is going 100% by the remorseful spouse script.


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## aug

This is way too soon in a marriage (of 1 year) to lose the "it". I would think the affair kill "it".

You know yourself. Do you think the "it" will return? Dont have kids (sex) till you know because you dont want to use the kids as the excuse to stay in the marriage. If so, then another 20 years will pass feeling detached -- not a good way to live, is it?

Give yourself some time to see if you can recover?


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## lovelygirl

TDSC60 said:


> The difference is passion, intensity, and empathy. You don't see these things in your wife.


Exactly. She says it to be politically correct, but does she really MEAN it??
It has to come from the bottom of her heart, and not just from her head. 

You know her better than anyone so if you feel she's not putting her heart in it then take your time before you make any decision.


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## Chaparral

Check this link out , print it out and study it with your wife if you haven't run across it yet.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...sided-need-perspective-please.html#post534068

11th post down


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## dan7272

Hey Dan, there is a big problem with cheating......there is always more that the Cheater is not telling you. You'll have days where you don't care what happened because you want it to work then you'll have days where things she has told you don't add up and you won't be able to get through the day without questioning her. This can go on for months maybe years. There are reasons these things happen in a relationship and you have to discover the reasons for her to do this . No excuse for her actions but there are reasons why she did it. It happened to me and I had to find what was going on with everything, and believe me there was a lot of details that she left out. Then I had to fix the problems with me ( which is very hard to do) , because I had to take responsibility for some of this. Your decision. Best thing I did was to contact the guy, it answered a lot of questions not that I wanted to hear the answers.


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## MaritimeGuy

Dan

This is undoubtedly an extremely difficult situation. In my mind trust is like a balloon. When you stick it with a pin its not like just a little air leaks out...it bursts. 

I appreciate its not easy but in my mind you have to decide whether or not you think you will ever able to accept that this happened. Pushing for polygraphs or making her do penance by sleeping on the couch aren't going to make you able to trust her. In the end there's really no way to prove she didn't do more than she's admitted to only the possibility of coming across proof that she did. Only you can decide whether or not you're prepared to make yourself vulnerable with her again.

I understand you're trying to get comfort that this won't happen again if you commit to the relationship but the reality is there are no guarantees. At some point you have to make a leap of faith if you want this to work. It seems to me right now she's fighting to keep you. She won't do that indefinitely.


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