# Intimacy and Resentment



## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

Hello all, maybe you can give me some insight on this issue. I've been dealing with this on my own for a while.

*First, a little context:*

I'm a married dude. Wife and I have been together for 6 years, and married for 2 years. We have a powerful relationship, mutually supportive, lots of care and love, and we challenge each other to be better people.

*Here's what's been eating at me: *

1. While Wife and I are both looking for intimacy in our relationship, we want that fulfilled in different ways. I suppose that's to be expected to some degree. As far as I can gather from her habits, interactions, and the conversations we have, she wants to feel connected primarily through conversation and non-sexual touch (cuddling mostly). I primarily want to feel connected and intimate through sexual touch. Now, these aren't mutually exclusive by any stretch--she says she enjoys sex and that its still important to her, and I love our conversations and non-sexual touching. It's a just a matter of priority, frequency and what makes us feel most intimately connected to one another.

2. Aside from the earliest stages of our relationship, I haven't felt like my needs for sexual intimacy have been prioritized enough in the relationship. I feel like I am fully committed, and do a lot to make sure she feels loved in the way she needs. It doesn't seem fully reciprocal, from my perspective, and this has led to a lot of pain and a build-up of resentment. Psychologically, my habit is to defer to others and avoid conflict, which has made this a sticky situation to work through. Regardless, I'm beginning to understand that I need to assert myself and advocate better for my needs in the relationship.

3. I realize that any marriage requires significant compromise, so both partners can feel respected and valued. On one hand, I want a more frequent, passionate, and spontaneous sexual relationship. On the other hand, I know our sex drives are just calibrated differently, and I respect that. She doesn't want to have sex nearly as often, and I really don't want to push her to do anything she doesn't fully want to. I'm cool with the concept of compromise, but I end up feeling like **** most weeks. I go out of my way to do a lot for her, simply because I want her to be happy. I don't feel like she does the same for me, at least nowhere near the same amount. I guess that's the heart of the issue, from my viewpoint.

4. Because of all this, I'm beginning to fall into a pattern of resentment. I'm actually really angry, I should recognize that--I made my vows seriously, but sometimes I wonder if I've trapped myself in a relationship which isn't going to be healthy for me. The clearer this becomes, the more I find myself disconnecting from her and purposefully withholding my love. It's not healthy, I know that, but I want her to understand how I feel and how painful it is to feel this way.

*What We've Tried so Far:*

-Explicit conversations about my needs. She gets really defensive about it, and feels like I'm criticizing her. I'm working on advocating for myself in a way that doesn't get her to shut down, as I know this type of communication is probably the best route for finding a compromise.

-Cold-shouldering and general withholding. Not a good idea. I know it doesn't lead to any long term change or a better situation. Weirdly though, she seems to get my point after a couple days and then will seek out sex. Then we repeat the cycle.

-She's told me that she doesn't feel like she should be responsible for my sexual needs, and tells me to masturbate more. I've tried to make clear how sex for me isn't just a physical thing. Masturbating is a detached physical act, but good sex makes me feel loved, valued, connected, etc...


*TL;DR: *
Husband wants more sexual intimacy. Feeling resentful towards wife. Loves wife dearly. Has no clue what to do.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Resentment is a poison. It will slowly kill you. It appears it has already started. Your W should be taking care of your business. Telling you to masterbate more? How about your W do that for you? 

What to do? You accept this behavior from your W or you look to find another that will fulfill your needs. Please divorce first before you do that.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

I know this does not help - but you are in a club of many!

Read and share these articles with her and discuss with her the points you relate to. If nothing else these might give you some terminology tha will help you explain your feelings better to her.

Understanding Your Husband's Sexual Needs | Focus on the Family

If this does not help - I strongly encourage you to seek help from a marriage counselor - preferably a sex therapist. This will continue and get worse if you don't stand up for yourself and express clearly that this is causing major problems in your marriage. If you continue on this track - holding in your feelings and not standing up for yourself - you will soon begin to more than resent her. Its time to up this problem to "has to be fixed or the marriage is in trouble" status - because it is!!


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## DEGROW (Apr 27, 2017)

Fellow brother, just have a talk with her. Tell her this, she can take responsibility for your sexuality or else give it up. Give her the same example, that you are not responsible for making her loved in cuddling, if she wants to go down that route. Be strong, be firm and upright. You have recognise that this is selfishness. Since you love your wife so dearly, you got to make her a better person by letting her realise what a selfish person she is. But don't outrightly said it YET, just give her examples of the same logic that she uses on you, that will make her think about her actions. Ask her to be responsible for her being felt loved. But, do it with a heart filled with love, knowing that you are helping your wife to realise the error of her ways.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

astral.wheats said:


> -She's told me that *she doesn't feel like she should be responsible for my sexual needs, and tells me to masturbate more.* I've tried to make clear how sex for me isn't just a physical thing. Masturbating is a detached physical act, but good sex makes me feel loved, valued, connected, etc...
> 
> *TL;DR: *
> Feeling resentful towards wife. Loves wife dearly. Has no clue what to do.


You express yourself quite well, kudos...

Welcome to married life, man/women relationships.

The part were she actually said she is not responsible for your sexual needs is troubling and cold.

This is the Kernel.

The Kernel of Truth on how she views her part in a marriage. Very cold. Very honest. 

Don't bother me...go play with yourself in the corner...like a silly monkey.

You may want sex daily, Her? Maybe once a week, maybe twice?

It will only get worse.

My take? You are not compatible.

If you get less horny as you age, she will do the same. Then you will be mere room mates, not pillow mates...not belly-to-belly mates...ugh!


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

You will find a lot of discussions on this topic here. A lot of people (men and women) are in this situation, and most have not found a solution. 

You need to eliminate any obvious causes for her not to have a lot of sexual desire for you. Medication. Your behavior, appearance, support, etc etc. 

What do you think she most wants from you but isn't getting?


Its quite possible though, that like many of us you are doing everything you can and she just has a naturally low level of desire. If so it may never change. I've been waiting 30 years for things to improve - they wont. If that is the case, you need to accept things as they are, or leave.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I'm sorry, but why get married if you do not get to hold your naked spouse in your arms daily. Get to touch and play with your spouse daily. Maybe not intercourse daily, but daily touching and grabbing. 

I am a Neanderthal. A full 3.5% runs in my genetics, and runs down my leg if I am careless.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

If she's "not responsible" for your sexual needs, will she let you open the marriage so someone else can be?

I agree that's a cold and shunning statement from her, very telling.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

You need to stand up for yourself and take charge. Telling her there is a problem and discussing it is not the same thing as taking action and letting her know that what she wants is unacceptable if she wants to stay married to you. What you really need to do is think whether you are willing to live this way for the remainder of your marriage and then choose a course of action. 

My advice to you is:
#1 - Do NOT consider having children with her until you resolve this issue.
#2 - Do your part and make sure you are meeting her needs. If she isn't feeling listened to and taken care of then don't expect her to take care of your needs. If you are doing those things then make sure you are still dating her like you did before you got married.
#3 - Be willing to walk away if she doesn't meet your needs. If she knows you are willing to walk over this, then she'll have to decide if she's willing to end her marriage to you over her not wanting to have sex with the man she claims to love and wants to spend the rest of her life with. If she is willing to let your marriage end of it, then show her the door and wish her well.


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## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

Yeswecan said:


> Resentment is a poison. It will slowly kill you. It appears it has already started. Your W should be taking care of your business. Telling you to masterbate more? How about your W do that for you?
> 
> What to do? You accept this behavior from your W or you look to find another that will fulfill your needs. Please divorce first before you do that.


Accept it or find someone else... That's some cold logic. I'm still banking on getting through to her, but I hear your point.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I understand completely what you're going through, am going through the same thing myself and, as you do, have no clue how to resolve it. I think the one thing that stands out for me is that your W says that she doesn't feel responsible for your sexual needs. If she isn't who is??? A prostitute, a woman down the street, someone you meet at work?? Like it or not women have to realize they ARE responsible for their husband's sexual needs. What man out there expects and is satisfied with a non-sexual marriage? I feel, as I'm sure you do, that your wife (and my wife) have a warped view of marriage. There's so many times that I feel I got played when I agreed to marry my wife. 

What to do about it? Unfortunately today's divorce court gives us little we can do. You can divorce her and end up being forced to give practically all your money to her or you could have an affair, see prostitutes or masturbate. All of which are are bad options and do not force a woman to live to her responsibilities within the marriage. In a nutshell this is modern marriage. If a woman decides she doesn't want to have sex with her husband, it leaves her husband with little or no recourse other than divorce. 

Marriage should be a renewable agreement every couple of years, where if the terms are broken by either party they should be able to leave the marriage without penalty or be responsible for any monetary obligation.


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## Tex X (May 17, 2017)

Married for 2 years and you're getting the "just go jerk yourself off" routine? That sucks pretty bad. She either has no interest in sex, or no interest in sex with you. Sadly, more times than not it's the latter. You need to decide what you want and need in the relationship (ie - sex) and lay it on the line. If she's not willing to provide that, then you divorce and find someone who will. And you tell her that in no uncertain terms.

But before you go down that route - have there been any major changes in you? Has your appearance changed (ie - weight gain), has your job status changed? Do you still hang out with your guy friends and engage yourself in your hobbies? That is all important stuff, and relevant to this discussion.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

How much time are you spending together meeting eachother's emotional needs? How often are you two having sex a week, and how often are you meeting her needs for intimate conversation, non-sexual affection, and companionship (doing fun things together)?

For women to desire sex, they need 2 things:

1. An emotional connection
2. The prospect of enjoyment

You may think you're doing enough to make her feel connected enough to desire sex, and it may be true that you do a ton for her, but if you're not spending enough time meeting her emotional intimate needs (listed above), she's simply not going to desire sex. 

Dr. Harley in His Needs, Her Needs recommends at least 15 hours a week of dating your spouse. He says that almost all sexual issues in a marriage disappear once a couple is willing to do this. He found the best way to restore intimacy in marriage was to devote the same time you did when you were dating. Helping with the chores, kids, and providing financially are certainly needs spouses have, but they won't cause feelings of emotional attachment as much as meeting the intimate needs listed above.


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## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

mary35 said:


> I know this does not help - but you are in a club of many!
> 
> Read and share these articles with her and discuss with her the points you relate to. If nothing else these might give you some terminology tha will help you explain your feelings better to her.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the suggestion. I think I've tried to condition myself to see my desires as excessive or burdensome. It's like, I don't even want to bother her, so I don't even ask. Part of this may be on me, as I'm not naturally assertive. I'm beginning to think a little more positively about my sexuality now. 



DEGROW said:


> Fellow brother, just have a talk with her. Tell her this, she can take responsibility for your sexuality or else give it up. Give her the same example, that you are not responsible for making her loved in cuddling, if she wants to go down that route. Be strong, be firm and upright. You have recognise that this is selfishness. Since you love your wife so dearly, you got to make her a better person by letting her realise what a selfish person she is. But don't outrightly said it YET, just give her examples of the same logic that she uses on you, that will make her think about her actions. Ask her to be responsible for her being felt loved. But, do it with a heart filled with love, knowing that you are helping your wife to realise the error of her ways.


I think this makes sense. I just need to be 100% honest about what I need. I do sympathize with the fact that cuddling is much less of a commitment than sex. I sort of feel like I am asking a lot sometimes, maybe too much.



SunCMars said:


> You express yourself quite well, kudos...
> 
> Welcome to married life, man/women relationships.
> 
> ...


Thanks! Yeah, I actually didn't realize how awful it was of her to say that. Now that I reflect on it, it doesn't seem so nice. It's not that she never does things for me, though. I should be clear of that. We typically have penetrative sex every week or two. Honestly, that would be fine if she were willing to do other things more regularly. Maybe that's something I need to emphasize with her.



uhtred said:


> You will find a lot of discussions on this topic here. A lot of people (men and women) are in this situation, and most have not found a solution.
> 
> You need to eliminate any obvious causes for her not to have a lot of sexual desire for you. Medication. Your behavior, appearance, support, etc etc.
> 
> ...


I feel like I've run down this checklist, and pressed her on this point multiple times. She says it's not me, and that I'm a solid partner, still attractive, supportive, etc. She frames it mostly in terms of a much-reduced sex drive, which she isn't particularly happy about either.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Try, but set a time limit. 

I literally tried for 30 years. Every time things improved a bit I believed (because I wanted to) that it was a real change. It never was. 

You have every right to leave. You have every right to stay and accept things as they are. Just don't stay hoping that they will get better - odds are this is as good as it will ever be. 

Its not her *fault*, she can't control her own level of desire (assuming she didn't deceive you earlier about her sexual interests). Its not your *fault*, your desires for sex with your wife are completely normal. You are just not compatible. 


DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN until this is sorted out. If you do, as an honorable man, you will be committed for the rest of your life to this relationship. 






astral.wheats said:


> Accept it or find someone else... That's some cold logic. I'm still banking on getting through to her, but I hear your point.


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## RideofmyLife (Dec 18, 2015)

You may benefit from reading No More Mr Nice Guy by Robert Glover. It's a quick read and free online.


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## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

Bananapeel said:


> You need to stand up for yourself and take charge. Telling her there is a problem and discussing it is not the same thing as taking action and letting her know that what she wants is unacceptable if she wants to stay married to you. What you really need to do is think whether you are willing to live this way for the remainder of your marriage and then choose a course of action.
> 
> My advice to you is:
> #1 - Do NOT consider having children with her until you resolve this issue.
> ...


I agree about the children part. The last thing I would want to do is end up separating, and my parents divorced when I was young. Awful, no child should have to see that.



jb02157 said:


> Marriage should be a renewable agreement every couple of years, where if the terms are broken by either party they should be able to leave the marriage without penalty or be responsible for any monetary obligation.


I took my vows willingly, and I meant them to be unconditional, so that's not a road I want to travel. I'll do what I can within the bounds of my vows.



Tex X said:


> But before you go down that route - have there been any major changes in you? Has your appearance changed (ie - weight gain), has your job status changed? Do you still hang out with your guy friends and engage yourself in your hobbies? That is all important stuff, and relevant to this discussion.


Thanks. I think I'm all good on these points, but I have to wonder if I'm not meeting my end of the bargain in some way. I actually ask her often if there's anything more I can do for her as a partner, and I feel like I'm pretty responsive.



Jessica38 said:


> How much time are you spending together meeting eachother's emotional needs? How often are you two having sex a week, and how often are you meeting her needs for intimate conversation, non-sexual affection, and companionship (doing fun things together)?
> 
> For women to desire sex, they need 2 things:
> 
> ...


These are great points. My wife has been very clear that she feels more willing to be sexually intimate when she feels emotionally connected, and I'm not sure I've done my part, nor do I know exactly what she needs in terms of this connection. We have a lot of conversations (and I've done some work to make sure I'm communicating in a way that meets her needs), and I treat her to her favorite meals regularly. Maybe I need to do more to figure out how we can build a stronger emotional connection...It's certainly true that we do less 'fun stuff' than we used to, given our finances and the stress of our jobs. I will talk to her more about this. Thank you!


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

AW - one of your vows probably went along the lines of "to have and to hold" - which translates to reasonable expectations of a sex life. Your W is violating that vow when you she tells you to get yourself off.

The way she bluntly stated this is pretty close to mental cruelty. 

If you are Christian, you should show her the bible verses in the NT that pertain to SIM....


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

[/QUOTE]
These are great points. My wife has been very clear that she feels more willing to be sexually intimate when she feels emotionally connected, and I'm not sure I've done my part, nor do I know exactly what she needs in terms of this connection. We have a lot of conversations (and I've done some work to make sure I'm communicating in a way that meets her needs), and I treat her to her favorite meals regularly. Maybe I need to do more to figure out how we can build a stronger emotional connection...It's certainly true that we do less 'fun stuff' than we used to, given our finances and the stress of our jobs. I will talk to her more about this. Thank you![/QUOTE]

It sounds like you're on the right track- you just need to make more time to do more of it. Like I said above, in His Needs, Her Needs, the magic formula is 15 hours a week:

The question of the ages: How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage? by Dr. Willard F. Harley, Jr.

It's pretty interesting to hear Dr. Harley say that in his clinical practice, he found that this one change solves the issue for most couples.


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## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

naiveonedave said:


> AW - one of your vows probably went along the lines of "to have and to hold" - which translates to reasonable expectations of a sex life. Your W is violating that vow when you she tells you to get yourself off.
> 
> The way she bluntly stated this is pretty close to mental cruelty.
> 
> If you are Christian, you should show her the bible verses in the NT that pertain to SIM....


We wrote our own vows, and we're not Christian. However, we agreed to "demonstrate our love through action, and to do so freely..." Now, she might not be living up to that. But, after reading some earlier comments, I'm honestly thinking I might be falling short too.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

astral.wheats said:


> Accept it or find someone else... That's some cold logic. I'm still banking on getting through to her, but I hear your point.


It is the same cold logic your W is demonstrating with you.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

astral.wheats said:


> Accept it or find someone else... That's some cold logic. I'm still banking on getting through to her, but I hear your point.


It sure is. Sadly though so many people have posted about these issues and at the end of the day they almost always end up having to make this decision. I think that is why it is said so often and so harshly. This stuff follows the same pattern.

Unless she really understands how important this is to your feeling of intimacy with her she will have no motivation to change. I think people who don't feel this way never really understand it.

This is assuming your are attempting to meet her need for intimacy as well not matter what that is. Also she is not to busy that she is exhausted, meaning you step up around the house and she in not required to be your mother.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

astral.wheats said:


> We wrote our own vows, and we're not Christian. However, we agreed to "demonstrate our love through action, and to do so freely..." Now, she might not be living up to that. But, after reading some earlier comments, I'm honestly thinking I might be falling short too.


Read His needs her needs and adjust. But as young and newly married, sex should be 5+/week. 

Based on what you wrote and how you wrote it, I really don't think it is what you are or are not doing, though I could be wrong...


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

Livvie said:


> If she's "not responsible" for your sexual needs, will she let you open the marriage so someone else can be?
> 
> I agree that's a cold and shunning statement from her, very telling.


Nuances. Life is made up of nuances. She is responsible for his sexual needs within reason. I think this poster is well within the zone of reasonableness. If she digs in and sex is not satisfactory than likely other parts of the marriage follow or will shortly. The options are:

1) Counseling
2) Open Marriage
3) Divorce - even though there was a vow
4) Go deep into meditation and redirect sexual frustration into mental health
5) Let it Go


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## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

sokillme said:


> It sure is. Sadly though so many people have posted about these issues and at the end of the day they almost always end up having to make this decision. I think that is why it is said so often and so harshly. This stuff follows the same pattern.
> 
> Unless she really understands how important this is to your feeling of intimacy with her she will have no motivation to change. I think people who don't feel this way never really understand it.
> 
> This is assuming your are attempting to meet her need for intimacy as well not matter what that is. Also she is not to busy that she is exhausted, meaning you step up around the house and she in not required to be your mother.


Yeah, I think your last point is where I go from here. I am independent and pull more than my fair share around the house. I need to figure out her intimacy needs a little better.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

astral.wheats said:


> We wrote our own vows, and we're not Christian. However, we agreed to "demonstrate our love through action, and to do so freely..." Now, she might not be living up to that. But, after reading some earlier comments, I'm honestly thinking I might be falling short too.


It seems to me that you're not willing to understand that SHE is the one at fault here. Where you may be guilty of a few minor things, she is the main violator of the marriage contract. I do recommend that you read No More Mr. Nice Guy, otherwise you are in for a life of no sex. Women have an uncanny ability to shift blame. Ok, you have to get her in the mood, however, the responsibility of fulfilling you sexually squarely rests on her shoulders...where else can it or should it be? For you to accept her blame shift is your decision and misfortune.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

astral.wheats said:


> Yeah, I think your last point is where I go from here. I am independent and pull more than my fair share around the house. I need to figure out her intimacy needs a little better.


I think you need to make sure your needs are plain as well. Then the two of you should commit to reinforcing both your needs.


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## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

jb02157 said:


> It seems to me that you're not willing to understand that SHE is the one at fault here. Where you may be guilty of a few minor things, she is the main violator of the marriage contract. I do recommend that you read No More Mr. Nice Guy, otherwise you are in for a life of no sex. Women have an uncanny ability to shift blame. Ok, you have to get her in the mood, however, the responsibility of fulfilling you sexually squarely rests on her shoulders...where else can it or should it be? For you to accept her blame shift is your decision and misfortune.


Yeah, I hear your point, and one voice in my head goes there quickly (ready to blame her and step back into resentment-land). These things are always more complex. I'm not interested in taking the blame for how she's acted, that's on her. The only productive thing I can do, if I want to stay sane and happy in this relationship, is to be the best possible partner and fulfill my side of things.

Not sure I agree with you about women shifting blame. I think that's a universal human tendency--blame's uncomfortable and it's hard to accept one's own failings. That's why I love hearing from people on forums. They tend to be objective and call you on your BS.



sokillme said:


> I think you need to make sure your needs are plain as well. Then the two of you should commit to reinforcing both your needs.


Right! I haven't been super-explicit with her about what I need and how often.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

If her lack of drive is so upsetting to her what has she done about it? Physical exam? Hormone check? It's easy to say she's bothered, but the proof is in her actions.

I've been married 14 years. If sex dropped to once every week or two AND my H said he wasn't responsible for meeting my sexual needs, I'd tell him his choices are A) accept that, as my husband, he is responsible for my needs and he has to fix his issues B) I Have a permanent hall pass to seek sex elsewhere or C) we divorce.


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## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

MJJEAN said:


> If her lack of drive is so upsetting to her what has she done about it? Physical exam? Hormone check? It's easy to say she's bothered, but the proof is in her actions.
> 
> I've been married 14 years. If sex dropped to once every week or two AND my H said he wasn't responsible for meeting my sexual needs, I'd tell him his choices are A) accept that, as my husband, he is responsible for my needs and he has to fix his issues B) I Have a permanent hall pass to seek sex elsewhere or C) we divorce.


Yeah, this is the part that's on her. She has some patterns that need to change if we're going to have a healthy relationship.


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

AW, from the way you wrote, you did start by having a sexual relationship with your wife that you were happy with. Does she acknowledge that her sex drive is lower than what it was before? It sounds to me like you and your wife could benefit from marriage counselling - if only to help you to address difficult issues without one of you becoming defensive. 

At a practical level - three things come to mind that impacted significantly on my desire to have sex in the early years of my marriage. (These were all temporary and/or easily addressed, and we have gone on to enjoy a well-matched and suitably enthusiastic sex life ....) 

1. Birth control - what is your wife using? Certain oral contraceptives can have a significant impact on sex drive. The impact for me is so significant that if I take them, then I become almost completely disinterested. Just a comment here - the absence of desire (and any causal relationships) are not always as objectively obvious to the woman as you might think. It took me several months to figure out what my problem was (and it wasn't until I spoke to someone with similar issues, that I did). If your wife can see that her sex drive has decreased, perhaps she could talk to her gynae/GP about this being a possibility and whether it might be worth looking at other options? 

2. In my experience, any kind of outside stress can be a HUGE factor. The most effective form of birth control I have ever encountered was undertaking home renovations. We went from a respectable 3-5 times a week to probably less than twice a month ... for most of the 8 months of the project. It did affect both of us, but it definitely impacted on me a lot more. Again, because it may seem as though the overall stress impact is being managed overtly, it isn't always that easy to notice a causal relationship with one's own sex drive. If you go away, or are on holiday, does your sex life improve significantly? 

3. Pregnancy concerns - If you are not actually trying to have baby, then it may be that she has concerns (even subconsciously) that she might fall pregnant, when neither of you are ready for that yet. If as relatively "new" newlyweds you are getting the "When" question from others family and friends, then this is probably not helping either. And I will say that, in my experience, worries about pregnancy affect one's entire sex drive, not just the penetrative part. So, suggesting part/alternative delivery - whilst it appears to be a logical solution, isn't necessarily going to solve the problem. 

My suggestion would be to talk to your wife, not as much about how her refusing you sex makes you feel (because guilt is not necessarily a good way to start this conversation), but more about how you just don't have as much as you used to. And that you miss that. And to continue working on meeting her emotional needs. (It took me a long time to understand the incredibly negative effect that refusing my husband sex was having on him and our relationship. Maybe some people find it easy to see beyond "I don't feel like it" to "But I can want it, if I focus on the man I love" to the bliss that lies at the end. Sadly, I took longer.)


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Just for clarity, OP, how often would you prefer to be intimate with your wife? How often are you two actually having sex?

Has sexual frequency changed markedly from pre-marriage levels? Or was this an issue during the 4 years you dated before marrying?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

RideofmyLife said:


> You may benefit from reading No More Mr Nice Guy by Robert Glover. It's a quick read and free online.


Someone who tells you flat in your face to get the 24 volt Fleshlight instead of the 12 volt one isn't going to be convinced via a DIY pop psychology book... 

2 years into a marriage especially...


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## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

Rowan said:


> Just for clarity, OP, how often would you prefer to be intimate with your wife? How often are you two actually having sex?
> 
> Has sexual frequency changed markedly from pre-marriage levels? Or was this an issue during the 4 years you dated before marrying?


In terms of frequency, it's hard to think of an upper limit, lol. I suppose I'd prefer sex daily--not necessarily intercourse, but some type of manual/oral would be great too. 

In reality, we have intercourse weekly or bi-weekly, depending on what's going on. She will "take care of me" in other ways maybe once a month.

During the first 6 months, the frequency was off the charts. We had lots of sex. I'll leave it at that. After that, we sort of worked into the current pattern. So yes, this was an issue during pre-marriage, although I mostly tried to ignore it/convince myself it was fine.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

astral.wheats said:


> Accept it or find someone else... That's some cold logic. I'm still banking on getting through to her, but I hear your point.


Unfortunately, it may take this for her to lay down the defensiveness.

People rarely change unless the pain of change is less than the pain of staying the same.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

astral.wheats said:


> In terms of frequency, it's hard to think of an upper limit, lol. I suppose I'd prefer sex daily--not necessarily intercourse, but some type of manual/oral would be great too.
> 
> In reality, we have intercourse weekly or bi-weekly, depending on what's going on. She will "take care of me" in other ways maybe once a month.
> 
> During the first 6 months, the frequency was off the charts. We had lots of sex. I'll leave it at that. After that, we sort of worked into the current pattern. So yes, this was an issue during pre-marriage, although I mostly tried to ignore it/convince myself it was fine.


You were probably giving her plenty of undivided attention during those first 6 months too. You can get the passion back. I'd start with the 15 hours a week. Do it consistently and she will feel emotionally connected to you enough to desire sex. If you want sex daily, ask yourself if that's reasonable. Can you pull off a 2-4 hour date every day? If not, chances are she's not going to desire you on a daily basis. If you can commit to dating her (outside of the house, focused on her, meeting her needs for affection, conversation, and companionship) 4xs a week, I'll bet you will see an increase in her desire for you. Think of it this way- every time you want sex, take her on a date first. Realize that this is what most women need to feel desire.


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## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

Mizzbak said:


> AW, from the way you wrote, you did start by having a sexual relationship with your wife that you were happy with. Does she acknowledge that her sex drive is lower than what it was before? It sounds to me like you and your wife could benefit from marriage counselling - if only to help you to address difficult issues without one of you becoming defensive.
> 
> At a practical level - three things come to mind that impacted significantly on my desire to have sex in the early years of my marriage. (These were all temporary and/or easily addressed, and we have gone on to enjoy a well-matched and suitably enthusiastic sex life ....)
> 
> ...


Yes, wife is on oral contraceptive, so maybe she can think of another method. She already has done research about its effect on libido, but hasn't followed up. Stress is also huge. I'm finishing a PhD, and she's worried perennially about job security. Both of us could do some work on stress management (but for me that's one benefit of sex! Haha). Soon, I'll be in France for a couple weeks on a fellowship, so we'll see if the pattern 'fluctuates' when I return. Hadn't thought of the pregnancy concern, but I suppose that's possible. She's expressed worries about pregnancy before, so maybe it is messing with her sex drive.

I agree that we need to have some honest conversation. I'm going to try to do this as soon as I can.


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## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> You were probably giving her plenty of undivided attention during those first 6 months too. You can get the passion back. I'd start with the 15 hours a week. Do it consistently and she will feel emotionally connected to you enough to desire sex. If you want sex daily, ask yourself if that's reasonable. Can you pull off a 2-4 hour date every day? If not, chances are she's not going to desire you on a daily basis. If you can commit to dating her (outside of the house, focused on her, meeting her needs for affection, conversation, and companionship) 4xs a week, I'll bet you will see an increase in her desire for you. Think of it this way- every time you want sex, take her on a date first. Realize that this is what most women need to feel desire.



2-4 hours of daily dating is probably unrealistic for both of us, which is why I'm fine with a bit of compromise. But definitely something to aspire to!


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

astral.wheats said:


> I need to figure out her intimacy needs a little better.


You might want to start with something easier like first figuring out if dark energy is a pure cosmological constant or are models of quintessence such as phantom energy applicable?

Just a little humor.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Astral,

After maybe - what - one year or two the passion left. But then at year four - you married A2. By marrying her - you sent a clear and convincing message that you not only tolerated her treatment of you, but you WANTED a lifetime of it. 

So now - you are thinking - if she only wants to have intercourse once every week or two - the answer is for her to just pleasure you in between. Not going to happen. 

You want to have passion - you need to create it. And you are meeting all her needs except her need for excitement. 

I bet you worry about how she reacts to everything and she doesn't worry at all how you react to anything. 



*Aside from the earliest stages of our relationship, I haven't felt like my needs for sexual intimacy have been prioritized enough in the relationship. I feel like I am fully committed, and do a lot to make sure she feels loved in the way she needs. It doesn't seem fully reciprocal, from my perspective, and this has led to a lot of pain and a build-up of resentment. Psychologically, my habit is to defer to others and avoid conflict, which has made this a sticky situation to work through. Regardless, I'm beginning to understand that I need to assert myself and advocate better for my needs in the relationship.
*




astral.wheats said:


> Accept it or find someone else... That's some cold logic. I'm still banking on getting through to her, but I hear your point.


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## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

Steve1000 said:


> You might want to start with something easier like first figuring out if dark energy is a pure cosmological constant or are models of quintessence such as phantom energy applicable?
> 
> Just a little humor, but I'm only 1/2 joking.


You clever beast. That is a certified zinger.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It may work and is worth a try, but in many cases like this, nothing will change here desire. 

30 years of trying and I am convinced that there is nothing I can do that will result in my wife wanting sex more than about every other week. 

In real life of course, if both people work 2-4 hours every other day may simply not be possible depending on what chores have to be done. 





Jessica38 said:


> You were probably giving her plenty of undivided attention during those first 6 months too. You can get the passion back. I'd start with the 15 hours a week. Do it consistently and she will feel emotionally connected to you enough to desire sex. If you want sex daily, ask yourself if that's reasonable. Can you pull off a 2-4 hour date every day? If not, chances are she's not going to desire you on a daily basis. If you can commit to dating her (outside of the house, focused on her, meeting her needs for affection, conversation, and companionship) 4xs a week, I'll bet you will see an increase in her desire for you. Think of it this way- every time you want sex, take her on a date first. Realize that this is what most women need to feel desire.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Withhold cuddling and conversation, and see how long it takes to get her attention. Maybe if you do, she'll understand why sexual intimacy is important to you. Right now, only her opinion matters to her, and what you need simply doesn't matter to her. Yes, your resentment will grow unless this is dealt with soon and decisively - otherwise, in a few years you'll be filing for divorce, or living in a miserable, sexless marriage.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Ignore, my post was posted twice.


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## Tex X (May 17, 2017)

john117 said:


> Someone who tells you flat in your face to get the 24 volt Fleshlight instead of the 12 volt one isn't going to be convinced via a DIY pop psychology book...
> 
> 2 years into a marriage especially...


It's actually an excellent book. Have you read it?


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## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

MEM2020 said:


> Astral,
> 
> After maybe - what - one year or two the passion left. But then at year four - you married A2. By marrying her - you sent a clear and convincing message that you not only tolerated her treatment of you, but you WANTED a lifetime of it.
> 
> ...


Yes, it looks like I will be responsible for creating the passion. I'm not entirely sure which of her needs I'm meeting/not meeting. This may be one root of the issue.

I do worry how she reacts, probably overly so, but that's my own baggage. She is actually quite conscientious about my reactions and responses in other areas, but there's a block when it comes to sex.


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## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> Withhold cuddling and conversation, and see how long it takes to get her attention. Maybe if you do, she'll understand why sexual intimacy is important to you. Right now, only her opinion matters to her, and what you need simply doesn't matter to her. Yes, your resentment will grow unless this is dealt with soon and decisively - otherwise, in a few years you'll be filing for divorce, or living in a miserable, sexless marriage.


I am already in a nasty pattern of resentment and withholding. I withhold and she seems to get the point, but after a short period things return to the normal pattern. This is not a good thing to do. It's a downward spiral. That's what I want to get away from.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

She's anxious about insufficient money/financial stability.

You are anxious about an insufficient sex life. 





astral.wheats said:


> In terms of frequency, it's hard to think of an upper limit, lol. I suppose I'd prefer sex daily--not necessarily intercourse, but some type of manual/oral would be great too.
> 
> In reality, we have intercourse weekly or bi-weekly, depending on what's going on. She will "take care of me" in other ways maybe once a month.
> 
> During the first 6 months, the frequency was off the charts. We had lots of sex. I'll leave it at that. After that, we sort of worked into the current pattern. So yes, this was an issue during pre-marriage, although I mostly tried to ignore it/convince myself it was fine.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

astral.wheats said:


> Yes, it looks like I will be responsible for creating the passion. I'm not entirely sure which of her needs I'm meeting/not meeting. This may be one root of the issue.
> 
> I do worry how she reacts, probably overly so, but that's my own baggage. She is actually quite conscientious about my reactions and responses in other areas, but there's a block when it comes to sex.


In all sincerity, I think that you're trying to accomplish something impossible. It's your wife's job to also do her part to meet you half way. You're the one on the internet looking for information to try to create more passion in your marriage while your wife has no interest in the topic. The root of the issue is that your wife has little interest in a sexual relationship. If she put in half the effort that you have, you would be at a much better place.


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## Spitfire (Jun 6, 2015)

Do yourself a favor and give your attempt 1 year. Do your best to meet her needs. After that year if things don't improve you need to be willing to divorce. Of course you shouldn't tell her you're doing this. Also, you want to ensure she doesn't get pregnant. I'd suggest she goes off any birth control and you start wearing a condom (or two) every time. That way there shouldn't be any "oops" happening. Good luck!


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## Tex X (May 17, 2017)

astral.wheats said:


> Psychologically, my habit is to defer to others and avoid conflict, which has made this a sticky situation to work through. Regardless, I'm beginning to understand that I need to assert myself and advocate better for my needs in the relationship.
> 
> I go out of my way to do a lot for her, simply because I want her to be happy. I don't feel like she does the same for me, at least nowhere near the same amount. I guess that's the heart of the issue, from my viewpoint.
> 
> ...


Your tactics for getting your needs met are ineffective and very passive aggressive. The anger and resentment is coming from you keeping score - which never works BTW. You need to get to a point of strength where you're ok whether or not the marriage is successful. Once you lose the attachment to outcome, then you will be in a much better position to state your wants and needs. This is on you right now. Once you get to that point if your wife is not willing or unable to meet those needs, then it is up to you to either accept it, or move on. Focus on yourself for awhile and give it some time. 

And she told you to masturbate more - ok so masturbate more. And don't run and hide in the bathroom and do it either. She doesn't want to have sex with you, then when you're both settling down in bed for the night, pull the covers off and masturbate right in front of her. Offer for her to join in and help anytime, but do it to completion right in front of her. Make sure you enjoy it and moan and grunt until you finish. Seriously - do this tonight. Then give her a kiss goodnight and go to sleep. I was over at a friends house years ago, and another buddy of mine was telling the story. One day his wife didn't want to have sex with him, so he sat down on the couch, whipped it out and took care of himself right there while she watched. She walked in the room while he was telling the story, and said "yeah that was pretty hot - it was a huge turn on".


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

For brevity sake, i am not posting as a mod. If I ever do post as a mod - I will open with the phrase: I am posting as a mod. Just wanted to make that clear. 


Astral,
1. She needs to get off hormonal birth control as that can kill a woman's sex drive.
2. You are unintentionally doing a lot of passion suppressing stuff. 

If I was A2, I would he thinking: If this was so important to Astral, why the heck didnt he address it before he married me? 

Intimacy has two dimensions - mechanical/physical dimension and an emotional dimension. The emotional dimension is best described as intense transparency. 

You want the physical dimension of intimacy, normal stuff - but you've not been transparent emotionally. 

And I wonder if you realize how important excitement is. I am guessing not. 

She does NOT want to be treated like an emotional Rubik's cube - spreads her legs when you color match the tiles on all six sides. 

Be transparent and playful - and wrestle. 



astral.wheats said:


> Yes, it looks like I will be responsible for creating the passion. I'm not entirely sure which of her needs I'm meeting/not meeting. This may be one root of the issue.
> 
> I do worry how she reacts, probably overly so, but that's my own baggage. She is actually quite conscientious about my reactions and responses in other areas, but there's a block when it comes to sex.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Spitfire said:


> Do yourself a favor and give your attempt 1 year. Do your best to meet her needs. After that year if things don't improve you need to be willing to divorce. Of course you shouldn't tell her you're doing this. Also, you want to ensure she doesn't get pregnant. I'd suggest she goes off any birth control and you start wearing a condom (or two) every time. That way there shouldn't be any "oops" happening. Good luck!


I think that she should know that this "trail period" is happening. Let her know that you will do the best you can to meet her needs and that you expect the same from her. If nothing is resolved, there will be a divorce (you have to be firm on that and let her know there's no changing the date or no excuses. If there's no improvement or you aren't satisfied, it's over). I think this will make her realize that her method of solving the "problem" will not work. I would file the divorce paper work and let her see it so she can see that this is no bull and is the real thing. She obviously thinks she has the upper hand, you have to try to take that position away from her. 

Based on what you've said, I don't think you'll do this though. I don't think you're willing to be tough enough on her to solve the problem.

She obviously has no problem being tough with you.


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

astral.wheats said:


> Soon, I'll be in France for a couple weeks on a fellowship, so we'll see if the pattern 'fluctuates' when I return.


I was meaning more while you were both away together enjoying a holiday, rather than just one of you being away. :laugh:
(But perhaps you could take a weekend away or something to celebrate when you get back and see what things are like then.)

Good luck with those conversations. Remember the trick - "I feel" not "You do". 

[Free Marriage Tip #37 - requiring some pre-planning, generally yields high returns]
While you are away, make sure that she thinks about you a lot. Aside from the obvious (phone calls, texts, emails etc.), think of creative ways to make her feel special, whilst missing you. (Flirt, but subtly). 

One of the most romantic things my H ever did for me when we were going to be apart was prepare ahead and leave a few little notes in strange/unexpected places for me to find (tucked inside my laptop, a book I was reading, my underwear drawer, taped to the icecream tub etc.). Some of them were romantic, some of them were funny and some of them were just cute. By the time we were back together, I was VERY eager to see him. A friend of ours made sure his wife got a small delivery of flowers a few times a week while he was away for a lengthy period. (I believe that this had a similar effect - but then they are the type of couple who have always had an amazing sex life... sigh.)


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

OP, if you honestly think you may not be meeting her emotional needs, then I recommend you buy and read two books:_ Lovebusters _and _His Needs, Her Needs_. Both are by Willard Harley. Read them in that order. The first will let you know what you may be doing that is killing love - creating emotional disconnect and smothering sexual attraction - in your marriage. You will need to stop doing those things in order for the second book to do much good. _His Needs, Her Needs _will give you a good explanation of what the most common emotional/relationship needs are for most men and most women. That should help you figure out what her needs are and better ways to meet them, if you're not doing so now. Eventually, it would be ideal if your wife would also read the books and implement the plans provided. 

However, as has been pointed out to you, you married your wife 3+ years after you started to have issue with a lack of sex in the relationship. What that basically means is that you let her know - by marrying her - that you were happy with the amount of sex you two were having. Even if you said otherwise, she likely assumed that if this were actually a deal breaker you wouldn't have married her. You should never marry unless you're perfectly happy with the relationship as it stands before marriage, and are willing to accept the relationship - again, exactly as it stands - for the rest of your life. You cannot change other people. And marriage does not improve bad, or even kinda iffy, relationships. Ever.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

I wouldn't give up hope though, just because you married her even though sex was less frequent than you need. You should expect to have your (reasonable) intimate needs met in marriage and you two can start working towards that at any time. But it will require that you work to meet her intimate needs too to create feelings of desire for her, which it sounds like you're willing to do.

Most men and women are different (don't we all know it!). Many of us simply don't desire sex unless we are emotionally connected, through intimate conversation, affection, and companionship.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Jessica38 said:


> I wouldn't give up hope though, just because you married her even though sex was less frequent than you need. You should expect to have your (reasonable) intimate needs met in marriage and you two can start working towards that at any time. But it will require that you work to meet her intimate needs too to create feelings of desire for her, which it sounds like you're willing to do.
> 
> Most men and women are different (don't we all know it!). Many of us simply don't desire sex unless we are emotionally connected, through intimate conversation, affection, and companionship.


While that's absolutely true, his wife is going to have go get on board with meeting his needs at some point, too. She may naturally start doing that again if her needs are being consistently met. If she doesn't, and isn't willing to actually work on it, though, there may be little he can do other than divorce so they are both free to find more compatible partners. At some point, she's going to need to know that such a thing is an option if they cannot create a loving and fulfilling marriage that works for _both_ of them.


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> And I wonder if you realize how important excitement is. I am guessing not.
> 
> She does NOT want to be treated like an emotional Rubik's cube - spreads her legs when you color match the tiles on all six sides.
> 
> Be transparent and playful - and wrestle.


:iagree:


AW - do you know what turns her on? Not physically exactly. But in her head? 

As we're all anonymous here:
My husband still does not get far if he "requests" oral sex cold (I have/had issues). If it seems like he's begging, then the likelihood just got less. If he pleasures me first, then the likelihood is looking up again. If he calls me on the way home from the airport and issues an order ... telling me to be ready and waiting and what to wear... or else - then I'm falling all over myself looking for my red (excruciatingly uncomfortable) high heels. Then giving him what he wants is not only what I now want more than anything, but the process is also incredible pleasurable for me. It makes no sense to me - but it works. Look, not all women are receptive to a "50 shades" approach ... but for me, wanting/needing sex happens almost entirely in my head. And that can be because I feel treasured, feel connected, feel dominated, feel ... well, whatever. You need to figure out what that is for your wife.

Watch what does turn her on when she is receptive. Experiment a little. Look at what she reads.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its risky. He may get what he wants until she finds a way to get a permanent hold on him - like a 
"accidental" pregnancy. 

I also suspect that he doesn't want her to feel she has to have sex or he will leave. He wants to be desired. 




jb02157 said:


> I think that she should know that this "trail period" is happening. Let her know that you will do the best you can to meet her needs and that you expect the same from her. If nothing is resolved, there will be a divorce (you have to be firm on that and let her know there's no changing the date or no excuses. If there's no improvement or you aren't satisfied, it's over). I think this will make her realize that her method of solving the "problem" will not work. I would file the divorce paper work and let her see it so she can see that this is no bull and is the real thing. She obviously thinks she has the upper hand, you have to try to take that position away from her.
> 
> Based on what you've said, I don't think you'll do this though. I don't think you're willing to be tough enough on her to solve the problem.
> 
> She obviously has no problem being tough with you.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Its risky. He may get what he wants until she finds a way to get a permanent hold on him - like a
> "accidental" pregnancy.
> 
> I also suspect that he doesn't want her to feel she has to have sex or he will leave. He wants to be desired.


During the "trail period" birth control would be a must. I don't think that he'll ever be desired by her, but that may be the best he's going to get...from her anyway. Unless she cuts the BS, he'll never have a real marriage unless he has it with someone else. I'm hoping filing will be a way of cutting through her BS, if not it's all over anyway.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

astral.wheats said:


> -She's told me that she doesn't feel like she should be responsible for my sexual needs, and tells me to masturbate more. I've tried to make clear how sex for me isn't just a physical thing. Masturbating is a detached physical act, but good sex makes me feel loved, valued, connected, etc...


Generally speaking women that when a man is needy that it is rather unappetizing. It would serve you better to be very confident about yourself and transform your neediness into compliments. 

What you need to do is rephrase things a little. Instead of "honey sugar I really really need you tonight please please please" you should say "honey sugar you need to stop being so freaking beautiful right this minute or I will not be able to keep myself off of you tonight!"


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I am NOT speaking as a mod. 

Asteral has been dishonest with A2 about his needs for 5+ years of a 6 year relationship. He has already engaged in classic nice guy double talk on this thread. In one post he says he is a generally low priority of hers and in another post he says otherwise. 

And instead of actually dealing with the issue - like he should have 5.5 years ago or 2 years ago by not marrying - he just wants one way sex on a routine basis. 

She may be selfish - maybe - or perhaps she is turned off by a partner too timid to say what's what in ten words or less. 





jb02157 said:


> During the "trail period" birth control would be a must. I don't think that he'll ever be desired by her, but that may be the best he's going to get...from her anyway. Unless she cuts the BS, he'll never have a real marriage unless he has it with someone else. I'm hoping filing will be a way of cutting through her BS, if not it's all over anyway.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Tex X said:


> It's actually an excellent book. Have you read it?


I actually have. Great for a small percentage of applicable cases, not so great for most of the others.

Like it happens here in TAM, the book does little to convince the hapless male to look deep and find root causes. It simply reiterates "it's you" a few hundred times, tells you to "take control" and, good luck with that.

My experience has been that people are far more complicated than a simple pop psychology book can describe. Generalities are good, but they generally don't work.


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## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

MEM2020 said:


> I am NOT speaking as a mod.
> 
> Asteral has been dishonest with A2 about his needs for 5+ years of a 6 year relationship. He has already engaged in classic nice guy double talk on this thread. In one post he says he is a generally low priority of hers and in another post he says otherwise.
> 
> ...


Explain where I did "classic nice guy double talk." (I get the sense that whatever this is bothers you deeply) You're making a lot of strong claims, and I'm not sure this maps on faithfully to what I've expressed here. I'd debate whether I've been dishonest with my partner. In my original post, I shared that we have had some conversations about this already. Could we both be more open and explicit in our conversations? Of course, that's a good next step. Also, it's feasible that my partner could treat my emotional needs with a higher priority than my sexual needs. That's what I was trying to express.

How did you get that I want "one way sex on a routine basis?"

"Actually dealing with the issue" is what I've been trying to do. I love and have loved my partner enough that I'm willing to accept some level of incompatibility, and work towards good compromises elsewhere. That's a difficult process, and the reason I posted.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

astral-wheats;

I strongly suggest that you read some of David Schnarch's books. The classic is the Passionate Marriage, but his newer books are much easier to read. He has sections in his book abut how to attain intimacy. What he has found is that most people can't handle real intimacy as to get there you have to be completely vulnerable. Most people are too afraid to be truly mentally, emotionally intimate.

Scharch believes that marriage is the hardest thing that two people can do, if done correctly. Specifically, two people come together and become a single family unit. The grow and mature at different rates. As such they are constantly pushing and pulling at each other emotionally throughout the life of the marriage.

Schnarch points out that every aspect of marriage is about compromise and that there is no right or wrong answer. There is only what compromise will work for the couple at this point in time and may need to be renegotiated later. That means that the amount of sex you want versus what your wife wants is neither right, wrong, or normal. You describe your definition of intimacy and you define hers. Schnarch would say neither of those are really intimacy and he has exercises for the brave of heart on how to gain intimacy. 

To bare you soul sufficiently to be really emotionally intimate will require you and your wife to self -soothe. This is a technique to quite you mind and keep from panicking that he teaches in his books. True intimacy is gained when you and your spouse mature or self-differentiate, push your boundaries through self-soothing to do specific acts that are way beyond your and your spouse comfort zone. It is an OMG I will do anything for her and she will do just about anything for me moment. It is about emotionally connection and being on the same page or state of development. It is not about orgasms or cuddling.

Good luck. I hope you find what you are looking for.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

I respect your opinion and agree that many books don't reach those that read them. In many cases it is not the fault of the book.

I also believe that there is not single silver bullet that solves all problems. So yes, a single book may or may not help the first time it is read. 

However, I do think that there are several books that if studied can provide insights into a person's problems. A big fan of Shakespearean and Greek Tragedies and Comedies. However, they require even greater introspection and study.

I do feel that some books have helped me, and from what I have experienced on this and the MW Davis website forum that Glover's book NMMNG has value as part of a larger reading list and self improvement list for more than a small number of men in troubled marriages, especially if they involve a wife who wants sex much less than the husband. 

An even better approach is with the guidance of a marriage counselor, however, some people don't want to start there for a variety of reasons. For them reading some books is probably better than nothing.

There is no one-size fits all solution.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

If my wife told me to masturbate more, I would tell her there was no reason to be married.

But I told my wife soon after we met that she had to have sex with me every day or I would think she did not love me. There's only one way to my heart, and it's through sex. She agreed, and has stuck to it, even through all the hell I have put her through. So I have nothing to compare to.

I can't understand why you are being so nice about it. Snarl some, and get assertive. Well, that's my way, anyway. But my wife calls me the big bad wolf, and responds very well to my assertiveness.

Oh, and Mary says besides, if she told me to masturbate more, I would just grab her and masturbate her, because of course I interpret it that way...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Astral,
I get it - I do. You feel like what I wrote was unfair. I've tried to explain it better below. And I believe the way you responded is selective. You ignored the comment about validating her treatment of you by marrying her. Instead of saying: gosh I guess I created this, you respond with - gee I guess I'm going to have to create the passion in the marriage. 

You knew what she was like when you got engaged and then married her. Your current resentment implies otherwise. That seems dishonest to me. And you seem uninterested in considering how that might seem to her. Did you overtly lie to her? I imagine not. But the way you describe the sequence of events, you deceived her regarding what was ok/not ok behavior in a core area by not resolving it pre marriage. 

And when you say you've already discussed this with her several times, I believe you. But that's AFTER exchanging vows. 

If M2 had married me, then turned around and said: MEM, you need to be much more ambitious in your career, or I won't be happy with you. I would have said: Why didn't you say that before we exchanged vows?


My commentary on extracted quotes. Your quotes are below. 
1. This is nice guy double talk. No one does zero for a partner in a marriage. This type statement allows you to interpret what you meant very broadly after the fact. Not good. 
2. This is a clear, concise statement of the issue - well said.
3. Connect this statement with (4). Because in (4) what you describe is one sided. Why I said the request is for more one sided stuff. 
4. See comment above
5. This - compared to (1) above creates confusion. 

Astral quotes:
------------------------
1. It's not that she never does things for me, though. 

2. I should be clear of that. We typically have penetrative sex every week or two. 

3. Honestly, that would be fine if she were willing to do other things more regularly. Maybe that's something I need to emphasize with her.

4. In reality, we have intercourse weekly or bi-weekly, depending on what's going on. She will "take care of me" in other ways maybe once a month.

5. I do worry how she reacts, probably overly so, but that's my own baggage. She is actually quite conscientious about my reactions and responses in other areas, but there's a block when it comes to sex.





astral.wheats said:


> Explain where I did "classic nice guy double talk." (I get the sense that whatever this is bothers you deeply) You're making a lot of strong claims, and I'm not sure this maps on faithfully to what I've expressed here. I'd debate whether I've been dishonest with my partner. In my original post, I shared that we have had some conversations about this already. Could we both be more open and explicit in our conversations? Of course, that's a good next step. Also, it's feasible that my partner could treat my emotional needs with a higher priority than my sexual needs. That's what I was trying to express.
> 
> How did you get that I want "one way sex on a routine basis?"
> 
> "Actually dealing with the issue" is what I've been trying to do. I love and have loved my partner enough that I'm willing to accept some level of incompatibility, and work towards good compromises elsewhere. That's a difficult process, and the reason I posted.


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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

OP, your thread struck a chord with me because you are the me I was, more or less, minus 15 years. I have a thread here with my story that you can read if you have 30 posts, or are a forum supporter, and are so inclined. 

I did some things that worked. And some things that didn't. But figured out a way to trigger the frequency and desire I do badly wanted. I was happy. And then I would get complacent and things would change for the worse until I got back on the wagon. So, at least for me, there was a blueprint I could follow (once I learned how to read it) that worked. 

And knowing what I now know, in all honesty, I would never do it again. To me, it's not worth it in the end. It's not worth the effort to decipher the contradictory vagaries of a wife's sexual desire, anymore than it's worth the effort to pour a foundation upon the sand. And spare me the "but husbands can be LD too" chorus. Of course they can. I speak only from my own experience. 

Young, no kids, and sex ranking on the rise? Clear the LZ, pop smoke, and wait for the chopper to sky out to a better place. 

Because trust me, if lasting change is your goal, you can get it. But only if you're willing to never in your life to allow yourself a sanctuary of downtime where you are off the clock. 

My wife has given me the greatest things in my life. My children. I wouldn't trade that for the world. She's also gifted me the worst things in my life - years of unrequited desire, passion, affirmation, and more. If I didn't have the former, I would never tolerate the latter. And if the former didn't exist but the latter did, the last thing I would do is even consider sticking around. And then if she also told you to jerk off more???? Are you f'ing kidding me? 

A person says that to you, and you want to fulfill her need for non-sexual intimacy? Give her a foot massage and listen to her trials and tribulations, and then when she's soundly asleep, and fully content, you what? Grab her bottle of Jergens and go to town on yourself? Maybe do it lefty so it feels new and different? Gimme a f'ing break. 

Read my thread and choose wisely. I wouldn't make same choices again. And if I were at the stage of life you are .... well, I'd learn to be happily alone. Seriously.


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## Tex X (May 17, 2017)

john117 said:


> I actually have. Great for a small percentage of applicable cases, not so great for most of the others.
> 
> Like it happens here in TAM, the book does little to convince the hapless male to look deep and find root causes. It simply reiterates "it's you" a few hundred times, tells you to "take control" and, good luck with that.
> 
> My experience has been that people are far more complicated than a simple pop psychology book can describe. Generalities are good, but they generally don't work.


That wasn't my experience at all. A lot of that book applied to me, and I took it seriously and made some serious changes. One of the themes of the book is that it may make your marriage better or send it to a long overdue grave. My marriage ended and divorced finalized over a year ago, and I haven't felt better. That book wasn't everything to me, but it was a real eye opener and a very valuable tool for me.

So if you're saying that guys that come to TAM are just looking for easy answers and too lazy to do to the work, well ok. There are plenty of those. But why discount a useful tool just because it's pop psychology to you? Fine if it wasn't for you, but why dump on something potentially useful just because you don't think it is?


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## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

MEM2020 said:


> Astral,
> I get it - I do. You feel like what I wrote was unfair. I've tried to explain it better below. And I believe the way you responded is selective. You ignored the comment about validating her treatment of you by marrying her. Instead of saying: gosh I guess I created this, you respond with - gee I guess I'm going to have to create the passion in the marriage.
> 
> You knew what she was like when you got engaged and then married her. Your current resentment implies otherwise. That seems dishonest to me. And you seem uninterested in considering how that might seem to her. Did you overtly lie to her? I imagine not. But the way you describe the sequence of events, you deceived her regarding what was ok/not ok behavior in a core area by not resolving it pre marriage.
> ...


It's less that its unfair, and more that I was confused by what you meant by "double-talk" and also thought some of your assertions were a bit shaky. 

I thought I was clear at one point that we have had discussions re:sexual frustrations and desires throughout our relationship (before marriage and after). Maybe I left that out. Some of those discussions were more fruitful than others. It's not a forte for me. After reading a little bit of NMMNG, I definitely have some of the traits--especially a drive to avoid conflict and upsetting others. This definitely hamstrings some of our conversations, so I'm to blame in that aspect. If I could have been more fully open and honest upfront, maybe things would have progressed differently. I take your point, and it's something I have to live/struggle with. I think I'm just now becoming comfortable with the fact that my desires are important and that I deserve to have a good sex life. How messed up is that?

I understand what you mean by one-sided now, although when she does stuff like that, it's not from me asking and it's something she expresses pleasure in. One sided, yet also a mutuality, by my reckoning. Again, I take your broader point. If I wasn't clear enough about wanting more of this in the past, I've sort of dug my own grave. That's a pretty pessimistic way to look at it, but there's an element of truth and accountability there. However, before we took vows, wife agreed that she would try to work on her side of things, and work towards a more regular, satisfying sex life. I trusted her, and still do. We just haven't made it click yet.

Thanks for your response. Helping me to see a bit of a blind spot.


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## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

neuklas said:


> OP, your thread struck a chord with me because you are the me I was, more or less, minus 15 years. I have a thread here with my story that you can read if you have 30 posts, or are a forum supporter, and are so inclined.
> 
> I did some things that worked. And some things that didn't. But figured out a way to trigger the frequency and desire I do badly wanted. I was happy. And then I would get complacent and things would change for the worse until I got back on the wagon. So, at least for me, there was a blueprint I could follow (once I learned how to read it) that worked.
> 
> ...


I'll take a look at your thread when I get some more posts under my belt. Either way, your cautionary tale makes me wonder if my optimism (whatever's left of it) is naive. I've considered what it would mean for me to leave the relationship, and that's a painful thing in itself. I'm still confident the wife and I can find a better path than the one we're in. It's just going to involve ripping the band-aid off.


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## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

WilliamM said:


> If my wife told me to masturbate more, I would tell her there was no reason to be married.
> 
> But I told my wife soon after we met that she had to have sex with me every day or I would think she did not love me. There's only one way to my heart, and it's through sex. She agreed, and has stuck to it, even through all the hell I have put her through. So I have nothing to compare to.
> 
> ...


I'm going to take your advice and summon the primordial wolf inside me. One can be both assertive and respectful, both kind and firm. That's a good balance, and a good way to be.


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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

astral.wheats said:


> I'll take a look at your thread when I get some more posts under my belt. Either way, your cautionary tale makes me wonder if my optimism (whatever's left of it) is naive. I've considered what it would mean for me to leave the relationship, and that's a painful thing in itself. I'm still confident the wife and I can find a better path than the one we're in. It's just going to involve ripping the band-aid off.


You can't change her. You can only change what you're willing to tolerate. So, understand that the bandaid that needs to be ripped off is actually on your own skin. And therefore, you can cause yourself fleeting severe pain or prolonged pain, depending on your approach. 

Optimism is fine in the abstract. Strive for realism. 

What do you want? 

How long do you imagine you will want it?

What will you do when your needs are irrelevant? Can you recover from that? Do you know you already have acquiesced to being there?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Tex X said:


> That wasn't my experience at all. A lot of that book applied to me, and I took it seriously and made some serious changes. One of the themes of the book is that it may make your marriage better or send it to a long overdue grave. My marriage ended and divorced finalized over a year ago, and I haven't felt better. That book wasn't everything to me, but it was a real eye opener and a very valuable tool for me.
> 
> So if you're saying that guys that come to TAM are just looking for easy answers and too lazy to do to the work, well ok. There are plenty of those. But why discount a useful tool just because it's pop psychology to you? Fine if it wasn't for you, but why dump on something potentially useful just because you don't think it is?


One does not really need a book to tell them it's time to bail out. Instinct works just as well.

I'm not a big fan of pop psychology books in general, and that includes much of the obligatory reading list in Tam. 

Maybe after studying psychology for a decade I know a thing or two more than the average stiff on the subject? 

A few books - generally written by professionals - are a bit more "credible" in my view. Schnarch (sp?) And a few more are good - but any book that oversimplifies human sexuality into a checklist and a condominium timeshare rah rah sales pitch isn't going to be quite as credible in my view. 

Most guys coming here are looking for answers, period. The problem is there may not be any, easy or hard. As you said, sometimes you need to bail out. At that point you only need your parachute's user manual to tell you how to pull the cord.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

astral.wheats said:


> I'm going to take your advice and summon the primordial wolf inside me. One can be both assertive and respectful, both kind and firm. That's a good balance, and a good way to be.


Now you're getting it.

If you avoid conflict it also means you're passive. A passive conflict avoidant man is NOT sexy. He makes a great husband/life partner because he actively works to create a peaceful home. But...... Peaceful isn't exciting.

I get that you being fully responsible to bring the sexy, in the dynamic that your wife isn't joyfully responding, is a LOT to put on you. But just as you are now just learning that your sexuality is completely healthy and normal and you should not down play or apologize for wanting to get laid, your wife also has to learn that she will eventually get into it every damn time.

Let me repeat that: your wife has to learn that even if she isn't "in the mood" you can get her there so long as she is open to being turned on. And that's what you should be expecting from your wife. "Be open and willing to be turned on whenever I approach you."

People with strong sex drives want sex frequently because they are always a little bit aroused, or become aroused very quickly. They spontaneously become aroused just by thinking about naked bodies. 

People with weak sex drives are rarely spontaneously aroused. They do not become aroused until they have been sexually touched in a pattern that works for them. They can also inhibit their sexual arousal and repress it. 

So the husband, sometimes a wife but usually a husband here at TAM, wants his wife to want sex more and she can't, physically can't accommodate this. She can't make herself want sex more often. But she can make herself be open to being turned on and aroused by a pattern of sexual touching that works for her.

This is what you tell/ask/demand/beg your wife: "could you be open to being turned on even if your not in the mood?" 

This is what you ask yourself: "can I turn my wife on and get her aroused? Why kind of response do I need from her in order to feel validated?"


Give your wife a lady boner and then ask if she wants sex? "Aha, see? Once you're turned on you want sex, so just let me play with your body and I'll get you there."

Damn, turned myself on with that last line. But I'm easy. >


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## Spitfire (Jun 6, 2015)

jb02157 said:


> Spitfire said:
> 
> 
> > Do yourself a favor and give your attempt 1 year. Do your best to meet her needs. After that year if things don't improve you need to be willing to divorce. Of course you shouldn't tell her you're doing this. Also, you want to ensure she doesn't get pregnant. I'd suggest she goes off any birth control and you start wearing a condom (or two) every time. That way there shouldn't be any "oops" happening. Good luck!
> ...


I wouldn't tell her because I'd want to know that any positive results are due to my efforts and not a fear of me divorcing her. Regardless, he can spend a lifetime trying to "figure things out" or he can realize he made a mistake marrying her and move on.


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## Tex X (May 17, 2017)

john117 said:


> Maybe after studying psychology for a decade I know a thing or two more than the average stiff on the subject?


I don't claim to be an expert - just sharing my experience and what worked for me.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Anon Pink said:


> Give your wife a lady boner and then ask if she wants sex? "Aha, see? Once you're turned on you want sex, so just let me play with your body and I'll get you there."
> 
> Damn, turned myself on with that last line. But I'm easy. >


My wife really enjoyed that post!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Tex X said:


> I don't claim to be an expert - just sharing my experience and what worked for me.


It works for some cases. Just like my trusty finasteride (Propecia) pills work for some people 😷

In practice, you need both a descriptive approach - describe what the issue is - as well as a prescriptive approach - how to address. Most DIY books skip the first part by assuming all kinds of things. If the assumptions match one's use case the book​ is golden. 

In reality, most men of a certain age, education, and income are Nice. Not just to their wives but to others. Basic sociology. But being Nice doesn't mean all these folk are celibate...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

astral.wheats said:


> Right! I haven't been super-explicit with her about what I need and how often.


You need to be super-explicit.

My wife loves me.

I'm a very good husband.

Before I clearly told her what I wanted, I didn't get it.

Now that I finally got through to her what I wanted (it took a few times to sink in), she happily gives me what I want.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

neuklas said:


> And knowing what I now know, in all honesty, I would never do it again. To me, it's not worth it in the end. It's not worth the effort to decipher the contradictory vagaries of a wife's sexual desire, anymore than it's worth the effort to pour a foundation upon the sand.


That answers a question I had near the end of your thread; "Are you happy with having to game your wife to get the results you wanted?"


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Astral,
I apologize. Usually I avoid making value judgements. I should not have said - double talk - as it implies intentionality. 

I should have said: seemingly contradictory statements. 

And I recognize that we all do so. Often unintentionally. 

But if you hear only one thing I say - hear this. 

It is very, very rare that someone is able to force more sex - through guilt or pressure. 

A2 likely has responsive desire - and you can google that - learn how to work with it. Both of you can. 

But you also need to create more passion. If you can. 

Treating her like she is fragile - when most likely A2 is emotionally stronger than you are - is actually harming the marriage. 

This does not mean - being cruel or hateful. It means just saying what is true without anger or malice. 

If it was me - I'd switch to a combo barrier - condom plus diaphragm. And I would tell her that there is absolutely no chance of even considering a child without resolving this. 

But but but. Resolving this - means - you fixing this conflict avoidant style AND figuring out how to be playful in a physical manner that works for her. 

And - likely - you can't read her very well and she thinks it's ok to reject you as much as she likes. The no child thing will force some real honesty. But the hormonal birth control is plain insanity given your issues in this area. 





astral.wheats said:


> It's less that its unfair, and more that I was confused by what you meant by "double-talk" and also thought some of your assertions were a bit shaky.
> 
> I thought I was clear at one point that we have had discussions re:sexual frustrations and desires throughout our relationship (before marriage and after). Maybe I left that out. Some of those discussions were more fruitful than others. It's not a forte for me. After reading a little bit of NMMNG, I definitely have some of the traits--especially a drive to avoid conflict and upsetting others. This definitely hamstrings some of our conversations, so I'm to blame in that aspect. If I could have been more fully open and honest upfront, maybe things would have progressed differently. I take your point, and it's something I have to live/struggle with. I think I'm just now becoming comfortable with the fact that my desires are important and that I deserve to have a good sex life. How messed up is that?
> 
> ...


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

I am going to save you some time and give you the gold from Neuklas's thread. 

"Here's what I do know - sitting around the house with a pissy attitude, eating a bunch of crap, putting on 20 pounds, being lazy, and staying up really late playing Call of Duty Ghosts is not a great way to get unsolicited BJs from the wife. 

On the other hand, being a bit unavailable because you are out pursuing your passions, being fit, being happy, being cheerful, working to achieve your goals and take care of your family - AND really doing those things because they are important to you, as opposed to just being passively aggressively silent and gone like a little whiny b!tch, seems to result in almost more married sex than you want . . ."

Pay special attention to the 2nd paragraph!


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

It seems you are basically getting variations of two conflicting pieces of advice here from various posters (Actually you are getting 3 - but I 100% agree with Mem that you can not force someone to have sex with guilt or pressure i.e. threats without risking severe consequences for the relationship and the marriage.)(However IF not having more sex in their marriage is truly a deal breaker for a spouse - sharing that vital piece of information with their spouse is very important!!! And actually that piece of information should be stated at the very beginning of the marriage - or at the least when problems start to occur - or as soon as the HD realizes that he feels that way)

The 2 conflicting pieces of advice you have been given so far are based on totally different situations happening in the marriage. They are also based on the assumption that your wife does not want more sex because of something you are doing or not doing. Its possible that she would not want more sex with anyone no matter what. So keep that in mind. It may have NOTHING to do with you!!!!

The 2 pieces of advice so far:

1. Meet her needs more, spend more time with her, help her feel loved and wanted and valued, date and court her more - and then she will want to have more sex with you. (This will work only if your wife needs or wants you to do all of this - if her perception or reality is that you are gone a lot either physically or emotionally - and often ignore her, her needs and wants - except when you want sex, or you make very little effort to make her feel loved and valued. Remember - it does not have to be the reality - but if it is her perception than that is her reality)

2. Create space, don't meet her needs so readily, concentrate more on yourself, be more manly, more assertive, more straightforward - less available - and then she will desire you more (This can work if in the past you have been around hoovering or smothering your wife too much - or again if this is her perception, that you are too needy, are too compliant, are too wishy washy about your opinions or your expressing your own needs and desires, and are way too attentive to her needs and wants.)

So which one fits your situation, fits with what you have been doing with your wife up till now or what her perception is? 

I'll give you a hint of which one I am guessing it is - it's not the one that you have already been doing. More of the same is not going to get you anywhere. I'll also give you another hint - straight from your wife's behavior as you described it - "Cold-shouldering and general withholding. Not a good idea. I know it doesn't lead to any long term change or a better situation. Weirdly though, she seems to get my point after a couple days and then will seek out sex. Then we repeat the cycle."

While you are right that cold-shouldering and general withholding is not a good idea. The fact that when you withdraw - she seeks out sex says something very significant here. 

Personally, from what you have written thus far - I think you may have a tendency to hoover and smoother a bit too much. I think you may come across as a bit needy to her. And I am willing to bet money that kind of behavior - or at least too much of it - turns your wife off and/or at the very least makes her smug in thinking she has you where she wants you no matter what. So why does SHE need to do anything different than what she is doing now? You are the one chasing her!! 

So I think you might want to take a look at your personality and how you are with her and perhaps give advice #2 or a form of it a try for awhile. 

But be aware - that any changes you make can't be fake and they can't be short term. Don't try to turn yourself into something you aren't. You still have to meet her basic needs and desires and there has to be a balance of alpha and beta behaviors on your part. Too much of one and not enough of the other will not work. Going from one spectrum to the other is not good either. 

Always remember because this is very important: You have to be authentic to who you are. 

Don't make any changes to your behavior or personality solely to get more sex from your wife. That never ever works!!! Look at yourself and evaluate where your weaknesses are and where your strengths are. Make changes to become a better person, a better husband, a better man - because it makes YOU feel better about yourself and makes you more confident and secure with yourself. Otherwise you will just create a situation that you will start to resent - the same as you have now. And nothing will have really changed - you will just move from one frustrating situation to another. Which is where I think Neuklas seems to have found himself. (Just the vibe I am picking up. Feel free to correct me Neuklas) Once you get to the point that you are not needy for sex from your wife - perhaps your offering sexual contact may be more appealing to her.

Authentic, confident, happy, emotionally self sufficient men are attractive. Needy, smothering, childish, moody, insecure are not!

Are you authentic with your wife? Or are you constantly trying to do, say, or act the right way to make her happy or thinking it will lead to more sex? Do you feel free to share what you really think with your wife without worrying about her reaction? Are you dependent or do you come across as dependent on your wife for your happiness, security, or self esteem?

Research reactive sexual desire in women. It may help you understand your wife a little more.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Marriage that is non-inclusive of loving sexual relations between its partners is tantamount to being, as the United States Supreme Court has often ruled, to be deemed to be a cruel and unusual punishment!

Or at least in the case of marriage, it damned well ought to be!*


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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

mary35 said:


> 2. Create space, don't meet her needs so readily, concentrate more on yourself, be more manly, more assertive, more straightforward - less available - and then she will desire you more (This can work if in the past you have been around hoovering or smothering your wife too much - or again if this is her perception, that you are too needy, are too compliant, are too wishy washy about your opinions or your expressing your own needs and desires, and are way too attentive to her needs and wants.)
> 
> So which one fits your situation, fits with what you have been doing with your wife up till now or what her perception is?
> 
> ...


I agree with everything here re: #2. Mary is spot on. 

As for me, I did change for me. I'm better off for it and happy I did it. I needed to do it because I had become complacent about some areas of my life. I don't have any regrets about the effort I needed to put forth there or the determination to make those changes permanent. 

When I say I wouldn't do it again, I guess what I really mean is I would not bother to rekindle lost sexual desire in a relationship without children. Instead, I would understand that I made a poor choice and I would move on. Because if it's that way without kids, there is very little chance of it getting better after you add a few of them and all their activities and the way they change your wife's view of herself - her new primary responsibility to be mom first and not wife, and then add a larger mortgage, more work stress and responsibility, and several years of inertia where you have tolerated bad behavior from her towards you re: meeting your needs. 

That's a deep hole to climb out of, and yes, OP is doing some of the digging. So, if he wants to climb out and fill in the hole, for himself, he should. However, what I found is the hole is even easier to dig the second time, third time, etc. The dirt is loose and the shovel goes in pretty easy. Therefore, if I did not have some strong, compelling, lifelong reasons to plant myself on that patch of ground, I'd take a stroll for a while. And maybe on that stroll I'd find another patch of ground that was more pleasing, and much more difficult to dig into.


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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> That answers a question I had near the end of your thread; "Are you happy with having to game your wife to get the results you wanted?"


 @Buddy400 your post from the end of my thread:

So, I read this entire thread in one go last night, stayed up way too late. Lately it's been very important that I get enough sleep and I thought (many times) to myself how weird it was that I was staying up late to do this. I do a lot of thinking about topics I consider important. Lately I've been thinking a lot about relationships, particularly between men and women, particularly about sex. Since my usual interests are History, Public Policy, Global Warming and Baseball, this topic doesn't seem to fit. Especially since I have few problems in this area personally. But, then again, what’s more important than sex?

I was describing what I’d spent the last night doing to a friend that shares the same diverse group of interests. He asked what the story was and I highlighted the main elements of Nueklas’ tale. As I got near the end, he asked “Does it end well?”.

Well, that depends. It seemed like a happy ending. After all, there’d been self-improvement, more satisfying sex. But I was haunted by something Nueklas had said early on: "I fight all day at work. It's business. No one is going to give it to you, so you have to take it. Home is the sanctuary. Last thing I want there is more of what I just left at the office. It's not so much conflict avoidance at that point as it is a strong desire to have one place in your life with no conflict at all."

By that measure, maybe it wasn’t that happy an ending after all. He’s got to be on the top of his game all day long at work and he just wants to come home and have his wife respect him, love him, enjoy his company and relax in his “sanctuary”. I don’t think that’s a bad thing to want. Sure, constant striving leads to more achievement. But really, sometimes you just want to relax. Be at home. Whatever was going on in his wife’s head; could it really have been worth taking this away from him?
--------------------------------------------------------------

I'd answer your question this way: without my children, who I adore, no, it's not worth it. Which is why, if I were the OP and at his stage of life, I would run for the hills.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Jessica38 said:


> How much time are you spending together meeting eachother's emotional needs? How often are you two having sex a week, and how often are you meeting her needs for intimate conversation, non-sexual affection, and companionship (doing fun things together)?
> 
> For women to desire sex, they need 2 things:
> 
> ...


That may very well be the case, but why isn't _she_ doing something about _her_ needs getting met? It seems that it's always the partner who is having less sex than they desire who is expected to meet the others needs first, with the "promise" of more sex as a result.

Why not the other way around? OP will desire more non-sexual intimacy with his wife, if _his_ needs are more closely being met, no?

Yet the default response to the person who's needs are sexual, and not being met, is that they have to ensure their partner (who is withholding sex) is getting their needs met first. It's never the other way around.


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## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

Anon Pink said:


> Now you're getting it.
> 
> If you avoid conflict it also means you're passive. A passive conflict avoidant man is NOT sexy. He makes a great husband/life partner because he actively works to create a peaceful home. But...... Peaceful isn't exciting.
> 
> ...


*Beautifully said Anon Pink!! Loving your advice, and @mary35 's as well*


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

astral.wheats said:


> I primarily want to feel connected and intimate through sexual touch.


Yes, because nothing spells '*intimacy*' and being 'connected' better than getting a blow job or hand job to tide you over til you get your full sex session. 



astral.wheats said:


> It's not that she never does things for me, though. I should be clear of that. We typically have penetrative sex every week or two. Honestly, that would be fine if she were willing to do other things more regularly. Maybe that's something I need to emphasize with her.


Stop playing the 'intimacy' card and call it for what it *is*. You just want to get off more and not have to jerk off to porn. Jesus, call a spade spade and stop with the 'intimacy' nonsense.


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## Juice (Dec 5, 2013)

@She'sStillGotIt take it easy on the guy. 

I hate to tell ya, but majority of men feel more connected to their partner when they get blow jobs and hand jobs.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


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## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> astral-wheats;
> 
> I strongly suggest that you read some of David Schnarch's books. The classic is the Passionate Marriage, but his newer books are much easier to read. He has sections in his book abut how to attain intimacy. What he has found is that most people can't handle real intimacy as to get there you have to be completely vulnerable. Most people are too afraid to be truly mentally, emotionally intimate.
> 
> ...


Wow, that is a really interesting and powerful way to think about intimacy. It reminds me of the work of Emmanuel Levinas, a French philosopher. I think I will look into this, it sounds like something that would be good to try with the wife.


----------



## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

neuklas said:


> You can't change her. You can only change what you're willing to tolerate. So, understand that the bandaid that needs to be ripped off is actually on your own skin. And therefore, you can cause yourself fleeting severe pain or prolonged pain, depending on your approach.
> 
> Optimism is fine in the abstract. Strive for realism.
> 
> ...


Good points. I can only change my attitude, tolerance, and my own behavior. But, I do believe that partners can help each other be better people. People are dynamic. We've already done that for each other in a number of ways. Part of why I love her so much, and am willing to work through this stuff. 

On a philosophical level, I don't think realism and optimism are incompatible, but that's probably semantic. Realism to me means having a good factual, descriptive account of the situation and its probabilities. Optimism and pessimism are about the hopes we're willing to take on. So, for me, while knowing that I'm in for a long, maybe bumpy ride here, I still have hope that we can work through things.


----------



## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

Anon Pink said:


> Now you're getting it.
> 
> If you avoid conflict it also means you're passive. A passive conflict avoidant man is NOT sexy. He makes a great husband/life partner because he actively works to create a peaceful home. But...... Peaceful isn't exciting.
> 
> ...


Yes, this is the pattern that works well for us. I do things that turn her on, and that's when we have the best sex. I know it's when I'm assertive and confident that she responds with the most excitement, but she also doesn't want me to come on too strong. It's a tricky balance, and I'm not sure what exactly turns her on. We've had that conversation, but it wasn't super fruitful. I think she could be more explicit about what turns her on and what she likes. She generally doesn't want to be touched sensually unless she's aroused, and I think she needs to be touched sensually to become aroused. There's a circular impossibility to that. Maybe we can shift it.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,
If you read what Mary35 wrote, the OP may be hovering and smothering. 

And when I tell HD folk that they are doing so, I often get the ultimate level of resistance - which is blatant dismissal. What I mean is - they completely ignore all points related to their own smothering behavior. 

And this is right here - is the 100th plus thread where: HD man meets LD woman. He wants to marry her non existent HD twin sister. He actually marries her - you know - the LD woman who actually exists. And proceeds to demand she turn into the HD woman he wanted. And he acts surprised and indignant that she isn't molding like clay beneath his fingers. 






alexm said:


> That may very well be the case, but why isn't _she_ doing something about _her_ needs getting met? It seems that it's always the partner who is having less sex than they desire who is expected to meet the others needs first, with the "promise" of more sex as a result.
> 
> Why not the other way around? OP will desire more non-sexual intimacy with his wife, if _his_ needs are more closely being met, no?
> 
> Yet the default response to the person who's needs are sexual, and not being met, is that they have to ensure their partner (who is withholding sex) is getting their needs met first. It's never the other way around.


----------



## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

MEM2020 said:


> Astral,
> I apologize. Usually I avoid making value judgements. I should not have said - double talk - as it implies intentionality.
> 
> I should have said: seemingly contradictory statements.
> ...


Yes, I think you're right about a lot here. Part of what's difficult about this situation for me is that there are multiple values, desires, beliefs that come together in a confusing way. I'm starting to get some clarity, and all the comments on this thread have helped me to do that, even if it means realizing that I'm being somewhat contradictory.

I definitely don't want to guilt her or pressure her. I've done that before unintentionally, and she shuts down hard, to the point where the conversation is pointless. I think the 'responsive desire' idea is one we've researched a bit. I think she recognizes that this is her arousal pattern--she even pointed me to articles to read. We still need to do the follow through and work on practically changing our habits with this information in mind. Maybe changing up birth control can make that a little more realistic. We're not considering children anytime soon, so we've got some time to make some changes.

Passion is somewhat of a mystery to me at this point. I'm not reading her well--in fact, it feels like I'm trying to read Mandarin or Klingon. I think some earlier comments from other members (that we need to have more conversation and shared recreational experience, in order to spark some passion) have given me some concrete ideas, and I'm going to put on my big-boy pants and do my part. Playfulness is a good direction too. That's something which was present more in better days.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Accepting one way sex - when it is freely offered - is fine. I do so without hesitation.

But asking for it - is a very bad idea. Sorry. 





Juice said:


> @She'sStillGotIt take it easy on the guy.
> 
> I hate to tell ya, but majority of men feel more connected to their partner when they get blow jobs and hand jobs.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


----------



## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Yes, because nothing spells '*intimacy*' and being 'connected' better than getting a blow job or hand job to tide you over til you get your full sex session.
> 
> 
> 
> Stop playing the 'intimacy' card and call it for what it *is*. You just want to get off more and not have to jerk off to porn. Jesus, call a spade spade and stop with the 'intimacy' nonsense.


I actually feel really connected to my partner when I can give her pleasure, without expecting any reward. From what she's expressed, she actually feels the same way, it's just that she needs to feel aroused before she can get into it. 

I categorically reject your point, and I wouldn't be surprised if most men would too.


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## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

mary35 said:


> I am going to save you some time and give you the gold from Neuklas's thread.
> 
> "Here's what I do know - sitting around the house with a pissy attitude, eating a bunch of crap, putting on 20 pounds, being lazy, and staying up really late playing Call of Duty Ghosts is not a great way to get unsolicited BJs from the wife.
> 
> ...


Yes! That is absolute gold! I know this intuitively. No one wants to make love with a sad man-child. When I'm being the best version of myself, the possibility of her arousal opens up quite a bit.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

astral.wheats said:


> Yes, this is the pattern that works well for us. I do things that turn her on, and that's when we have the best sex. I know it's when I'm assertive and confident that she responds with the most excitement, but she also doesn't want me to come on too strong. It's a tricky balance, and I'm not sure what exactly turns her on. We've had that conversation, but it wasn't super fruitful. I think she could be more explicit about what turns her on and what she likes. *She generally doesn't want to be touched sensually unless she's aroused, *and I think she needs to be touched sensually to become aroused. There's a circular impossibility to that. Maybe we can shift it.



She is reacting to your intentions because she knows you are touching her that way to turn her on and for some reason this makes her feel manipulated. In truth, she is being manipulated. Manipulated into being aroused. Yes...and....?

The shift needs to be in the attitude toward sex. Does she think sex should be some organic unplanned spontaneous event? If she allows herself to be intentionally aroused what does that mean? Ask her? 

Attitudes about sex are multilayered but it's been my experience that young(er) women seem to think they are giving it up. They are not giving it up to their husbands. This is the confusing messaging girls and women struggle with. Don't give it up, make him work for it, make him put a ring on it, make him prove his worth. Okay but now you're married so....he has done all of that and you can ditch the attitude that you're giving something up.

You have your emotional stuff to unpack, passive, avoidant and maybe a tad emotionally dependent. She has her emotional stuff to unpack, attitudes toward married sex vs singlehood sex, and her coyness (or possibly not really knowing exactly what does turn her on, or maybe she knows but can't admit it) all need fresh air.

As others have pointed out, the sex issue has to be something you both work on together because you can do all sorts of mental gymnastics to get regular sex but the moment you wish to relax it all ends. As neuklas has admitted, he resents the level of efffort he has to put into getting laid. None of this makes for a happy marriage.


Can she relax and let you turn her on? Can she enjoy you learning her body and allow herself to respond? Can she rethink her attitudes about sex and see sex as a shared enjoyment no matter how messy the home is, or whatever kind of stress present that inhibits her from "wanting" sex?

"Honey, I just want to see how many orgasms you can have in 30 minutes so be quiet until the timer goes off."

"How many times can I bring you to the edge before you threaten me with death if I don't finish you off?"


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Yes, because nothing spells '*intimacy*' and being 'connected' better than getting a blow job or hand job to tide you over til you get your full sex session.
> 
> 
> 
> Stop playing the 'intimacy' card and call it for what it *is*. You just want to get off more and not have to jerk off to porn. Jesus, call a spade spade and stop with the 'intimacy' nonsense.


I never got the impression that the OP is only looking for bj's or hand jobs. Men who only want that are not typically men who would spend hours discussing his problem on a message board such as TAM.


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## _anonymous_ (Apr 18, 2016)

OP, resentment will destroy your marriage. It inverts love into hate. It is the catalyst to marital ruin. Be warned.

Here's a sample trajectory:

It starts with unfairness in the relationship. You care about your wife's needs and try to meet them, whereas she doesn't care about yours. (e.g. you want physical intimacy, she tells you to masturbate) Benefiting her gets old, when she could care less about benefiting you.

First response is becoming passive aggressive. Your wife doesn't meet your needs, so you cold shoulder her or deliberately refuse to meet her needs. Your marriage, where two people once tried to fulfill each others' needs, now degenerates into a transactional relationship. You do for her, insofar as she does for you. It's ugly, questionably devoid of love.

Second response is resentment. It develops over the initial unfairness, and possibly, over the first response not achieving fairness. The resentment begins to invert your healthy feelings for your wife, for as long as you choose to hold it inside. Your problem becomes worse. You care less and less about your wife and her needs.

Third response is the view of your marriage changing over the long-term. If you flip enough positive feelings for your wife into negative feelings, you'll start seeing her as enemy vs. friend. It then becomes difficult to imagine her in your ideal future, and your mind ventures from the reality of your relationship. Suddenly, it's difficult to live in the moment. Your day-to-day state will be detached and un-involved; you'll be occupied by hopes of your spouse's change, for different circumstances in your future. Or, you'll be occupied by fantasies of a life without her. 

End state of resentment is that you'll hate your wife (and she'll hate you back), and you'll divorce over it or somehow stay together, wasting your entire lives in an unhappy marriage, just hoping it will get better. Resentment festers into hate and inverts love. Again, be warned.

Get to a marriage counselor to improve communication and conflict resolution in your relationship. Independent counseling, a different perspective on intimacy, or doing more with family and friends could help also, getting you to think differently (or less often) about sex. These are coping mechanisms, of course. If it was me and there were no kids involved in my marriage, I'd jet if counseling didn't help. But that's me.

Hope this helps. Good luck!


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

astral.wheats said:


> I actually feel really connected to my partner when I can give her pleasure, without expecting any reward. From what she's expressed, she actually feels the same way, it's just that she needs to feel aroused before she can get into it.
> 
> _I categorically reject your point, and I wouldn't be surprised if most men would too._


Correct, this however is an extremely common view among women. Even though your wife may well freely give one sided things from time to time, she likely DOES thing this sex thing has nothing to do with intimacy. Takes active verbal 'combat' repeatedly over years to make her understand that her assumptions are actually wrong.


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## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

mary35 said:


> It seems you are basically getting variations of two conflicting pieces of advice here from various posters (Actually you are getting 3 - but I 100% agree with Mem that you can not force someone to have sex with guilt or pressure i.e. threats without risking severe consequences for the relationship and the marriage.)(However IF not having more sex in their marriage is truly a deal breaker for a spouse - sharing that vital piece of information with their spouse is very important!!! And actually that piece of information should be stated at the very beginning of the marriage - or at the least when problems start to occur - or as soon as the HD realizes that he feels that way)
> 
> The 2 conflicting pieces of advice you have been given so far are based on totally different situations happening in the marriage. They are also based on the assumption that your wife does not want more sex because of something you are doing or not doing. Its possible that she would not want more sex with anyone no matter what. So keep that in mind. It may have NOTHING to do with you!!!!
> 
> ...


Ok, lots to interact with here. Thank you for that thoughtful post!

As far as the 2 conflicting pieces of advice, I'm of the mind that they're not necessarily conflicting. I think I could definitely be more assertive, confident, and authentic in our relationship. In fact, I need to, not just in our relationship, but in all facets of my life. While I need to work on my character, communication and attitude, I also see that we probably aren't connecting enough in the way that's ideal for her. I do need to court her , make her feel special and do romantic things for her more often. I think I've been actually trying to keep up with #2 more than anything, trying to be a good man, be successful in my work, be emotionally independent. I've sort of forgotten the need to be romantic with her. Balancing the alpha with the beta, I like that!

All that said, I think you have a good point about hovering/smothering and appearing needy. That was a strong pattern for a while, and in my conversations with the wife, she let me know that it really wasn't helping things. This has motivated me to be more independent, confident, and give her more space. What I haven't figured out perfectly is how to create passion and arousal from that more distant vantage point. Like you said, it might be something that she needs to work on--and maybe a fundamental part of her character. I still have much to learn about responsive/reactive arousal and desire.

Great advice, thank you.


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## Juice (Dec 5, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Accepting one way sex - when it is freely offered - is fine. I do so without hesitation.
> 
> But asking for it - is a very bad idea. Sorry.


Asking for bj or hj is a bad idea?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


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## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

anonmd said:


> Correct, this however is an extremely common view among women. Even though your wife may well freely give one sided things from time to time, she likely DOES thing this sex thing has nothing to do with intimacy. Takes active verbal 'combat' repeatedly over years to make her understand that her assumptions are actually wrong.


Something to explore. This is was hard for me to talk about in the past--I had convinced myself, similar to She'sStillGotIt's thinking, that I was being selfish and unreasonable. I thought I was using her, and that I probably should just take care of myself. Lots of internalized shame there. I'm done with that now.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Of course depends on the person

I've had my wife tell me that something I was saying was getting her aroused and that I should stop because she had to [sleep / do chores / didn't feel like it tonight / miscellaneous excuse]





Anon Pink said:


> snip
> So the husband, sometimes a wife but usually a husband here at TAM, wants his wife to want sex more and she can't, physically can't accommodate this. She can't make herself want sex more often. But she can make herself be open to being turned on and aroused by a pattern of sexual touching that works for her.
> 
> snip


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## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

neuklas said:


> @Buddy400 your post from the end of my thread:
> 
> So, I read this entire thread in one go last night, stayed up way too late. Lately it's been very important that I get enough sleep and I thought (many times) to myself how weird it was that I was staying up late to do this. I do a lot of thinking about topics I consider important. Lately I've been thinking a lot about relationships, particularly between men and women, particularly about sex. Since my usual interests are History, Public Policy, Global Warming and Baseball, this topic doesn't seem to fit. Especially since I have few problems in this area personally. But, then again, what’s more important than sex?
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing your experience. I can definitely identify a lot with this--being beaten like a dog all day by the work I do, then coming home to do what seems like more work, just so I can feel satisfied. I wonder how many people feel like they don't have to work for that sanctuary.


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## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

MEM2020 said:


> Accepting one way sex - when it is freely offered - is fine. I do so without hesitation.
> 
> But asking for it - is a very bad idea. Sorry.


Seconded, I never ask. Sort of ruins it.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

No, that really isn't it for many people and that misconception I think causes a lot of these issue. 

Like most men and many women I can get myself off in a few minutes anytime I want. I the goal of sex were to get off, it would be completely stupid to go to all the effort of interacting with another person for that. 

For most of us, the point of sex is not getting off. Its the interaction and intimacy with our partners. 

Even quickies and sexual favors are about the interaction, not the O. 

Its a little like food - you could have a TV dinner or other instant food every night if the only goal were sustenance. You may even eat fast food when you are hungry and want food, but a nice dinner with good company is completely different. 





She'sStillGotIt said:


> Yes, because nothing spells '*intimacy*' and being 'connected' better than getting a blow job or hand job to tide you over til you get your full sex session.
> 
> 
> 
> Stop playing the 'intimacy' card and call it for what it *is*. You just want to get off more and not have to jerk off to porn. Jesus, call a spade spade and stop with the 'intimacy' nonsense.


----------



## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

Anon Pink said:


> She is reacting to your intentions because she knows you are touching her that way to turn her on and for some reason this makes her feel manipulated. In truth, she is being manipulated. Manipulated into being aroused. Yes...and....?
> 
> The shift needs to be in the attitude toward sex. Does she think sex should be some organic unplanned spontaneous event? If she allows herself to be intentionally aroused what does that mean? Ask her?
> 
> ...


Thank you for this. That was all really insightful!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Of course depends on the person
> 
> I've had my wife tell me that something I was saying was getting her aroused and that I should stop because she had to [sleep / do chores / didn't feel like it tonight / miscellaneous excuse]


Why does she see sex as something that takes away from the other more important ways to spend time? Other than sleep and even then only if a small measure of sleep deprivation would be utterly disastrous, none of those other activities are more important than renewing the marital bond through the neural chemical reaction good sex brings.

Her attitude about sex needs some adjusting.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

She just doesn't see it as important and doesn't understand why I do. 

For reasons neither of us understand, she typically sleeps very badly after we've had sex, even if it was hours before bedtime. 



Anon Pink said:


> Why does she see sex as something that takes away from the other more important ways to spend time? Other than sleep and even then only if a small measure of sleep deprivation would be utterly disastrous, none of those other activities are more important than renewing the marital bond through the neural chemical reaction good sex brings.
> 
> Her attitude about sex needs some adjusting.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Juice said:


> Asking for bj or hj is a bad idea?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


It's a bad idea if sex is a battle ground. 

You think you're asking for her to show you love in a way that is meaningful to you, and considering she doesn't want to have sex this is a compromise. 

But what she hears is that you've got a load of cum with her name on it that needs delivering. IOW, not love but jizz.

Work on adjusting the attitudes. Until then what you say will not be heard the way you intend.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

uhtred said:


> She just doesn't see it as important and doesn't understand why I do.
> 
> For reasons neither of us understand, she typically sleeps very badly after we've had sex, even if it was hours before bedtime.


I do too and I don't understand it either. And I love sex, would happily give up sleep for good sex.

Maybe sex, rest and a back rub?


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

alexm said:


> That may very well be the case, but why isn't _she_ doing something about _her_ needs getting met? It seems that it's always the partner who is having less sex than they desire who is expected to meet the others needs first, with the "promise" of more sex as a result.
> 
> Because as stated in His Needs, Her Needs, we need our spouse to meet our intimate emotional needs: affection, intimate conversation, recreational companionship, and sexual fulfillment. We can't meet those needs ourselves, hence the OP's problem. Once we try to start doing that, the marriage can further deteriorate. We need our spouse to meet those needs for us- otherwise, why be married?
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

We've tried that. Its a really strange effect. She feels sleepy afterwards and we often doze together cuddling. She then sleeps well early in the night but wakes up very early and can't sleep again. Really strange. 

Maybe psychological? 

Anyway, didn't mean to thread-jack.





Anon Pink said:


> I do too and I don't understand it either. And I love sex, would happily give up sleep for good sex.
> 
> Maybe sex, rest and a back rub?


----------



## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Anon Pink said:


> I do too and I don't understand it either. And I love sex, would happily give up sleep for good sex.
> 
> Maybe sex, rest and a back rub?


Have you had kids? 

I used to be this way too, but after my first was born, who was an intense baby, that all changed. Now I need my sleep more than food, sex, and any other bodily need.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

uhtred said:


> We've tried that. Its a really strange effect. She feels sleepy afterwards and we often doze together cuddling. She then sleeps well early in the night but wakes up very early and can't sleep again. Really strange.
> 
> Maybe psychological?
> 
> Anyway, didn't mean to thread-jack.


Huh... I wake up the next morning with a sex hangover ready for more. Good sex makes me want it again and again but I have to be patient and allow my husband time.




Jessica38 said:


> Have you had kids?
> 
> I used to be this way too, but after my first was born, who was an intense baby, that all changed. Now I need my sleep more than food, sex, and any other bodily need.


LOL, my oldest is 30. Back when they were little, sex was the very last thing on my list!


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

I know. I was replying directly to this:

*"How much time are you spending together meeting eachother's emotional needs? How often are you two having sex a week, and how often are you meeting her needs for intimate conversation, non-sexual affection, and companionship (doing fun things together)?

For women to desire sex, they need 2 things:

1. An emotional connection
2. The prospect of enjoyment

You may think you're doing enough to make her feel connected enough to desire sex, and it may be true that you do a ton for her, but if you're not spending enough time meeting her emotional intimate needs (listed above), she's simply not going to desire sex."*

I don't disagree with it at all - he may not be meeting her needs, either. But my point is that if we have TWO people with unmet needs, why is it almost always the one with the higher sex drive that has to fix it?




MEM2020 said:


> Alex,
> If you read what Mary35 wrote, the OP may be hovering and smothering.
> 
> And when I tell HD folk that they are doing so, I often get the ultimate level of resistance - which is blatant dismissal. What I mean is - they completely ignore all points related to their own smothering behavior.
> ...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> And this is right here - is the 100th plus thread where: HD man meets LD woman. He wants to marry her non existent HD twin sister. He actually marries her - you know - the LD woman who actually exists. And proceeds to demand she turn into the HD woman he wanted. And he acts surprised and indignant that she isn't molding like clay beneath his fingers.


Well, many cases are like those, but an awfully large number of cases are present where LD-ness sorta came later, to much later. 

Nobody talks about drive levels, granted, and it's where premarital counseling would be useful.


----------



## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

uhtred said:


> She just doesn't see it as important and doesn't understand why I do.
> 
> For reasons neither of us understand, she typically sleeps very badly after we've had sex, even if it was hours before bedtime.


I'm the same way - not sleeping well after sex. Its frustrating cause he likes it at night cause he sleeps better after and I prefer morning or afternoon sex. Which doesn't always work out well with our schedules.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

uhtred said:


> Of course depends on the person
> 
> I've had my wife tell me that something I was saying was getting her aroused and that I should stop because she had to [sleep / do chores / didn't feel like it tonight / miscellaneous excuse]


So... why would you stop? 

Funny story - we have a friend who told us once, after a bit of drinking, that she gets aroused when she hears the word "****". It's almost like a trigger for her. Definitely different, but hey, whatever floats your boat!

My wife and I were at her house a few months back, helping her with some home repairs, and she couldn't think of the word "caulk". She started describing what it was, and my wife and I looked at each other, looked at her and said - at the same time - "CAULK!" That generated a few laughs... Followed by a few hours of teasing her about needing some, and that she can't use mine, she'll have to get her own, and if she wanted a big tube of it or if a small one will do...

We can be really juvenile adults at times...


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

alexm said:


> I know. I was replying directly to this:
> 
> *"How much time are you spending together meeting eachother's emotional needs? How often are you two having sex a week, and how often are you meeting her needs for intimate conversation, non-sexual affection, and companionship (doing fun things together)?
> 
> ...


Because they are the one with the problem - the LD is perfectly happy with the way things are!!! And because here on TAM we are almost always talking to the HD - not the LD. if the LD were here we would tell them what they need to do!!!


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Juice said:


> @She'sStillGotIt take it easy on the guy.
> 
> I hate to tell ya, but majority of men feel more connected to their partner when they get blow jobs and hand jobs.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


And the majority of women feel more connected to their partner when he makes time to talk with her and show interest in her, and be affectionate. And (many but not all) women who don't feel emotionally connected to their partner are not going to be interested in having sex (especially one-sided sex) without an environment that makes her feel emotionally connected.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

uhtred said:


> No, that really isn't it for many people and that misconception I think causes a lot of these issue.
> 
> Like most men and many women I can get myself off in a few minutes anytime I want. I the goal of sex were to get off, it would be completely stupid to go to all the effort of interacting with another person for that.
> 
> ...


I love how you put this. It's so simple and easy to understand. I think MOST people feel this way, including HD's.

The problem, obviously, is that some people just fail to see it this way. Whether it's because they've never had an interest in sex (ie. true LD's) or their experiences have led them to believe this - either way, it sucks. And in each case, it's easily understandable - if they _want_ to understand.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,

The person who works harder in every relationship - is almost always the person who loves more. 

If you want someone to love you more - be more lovable and less available. 





alexm said:


> I know. I was replying directly to this:
> 
> *"How much time are you spending together meeting eachother's emotional needs? How often are you two having sex a week, and how often are you meeting her needs for intimate conversation, non-sexual affection, and companionship (doing fun things together)?
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I started another thread on this. I'm very interested in any input you have on what might help. 



mary35 said:


> I'm the same way - not sleeping well after sex. Its frustrating cause he likes it at night cause he sleeps better after and I prefer morning or afternoon sex. Which doesn't always work out well with our schedules.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

mary35 said:


> Because they are the one with the problem - the LD is perfectly happy with the way things are!!! And because here on TAM we are almost always talking to the HD - not the LD. if the LD were here we would tell them what they need to do!!!


I think we've lost track here.

OP said that he goes above and beyond to meet his wife's needs. They're being met. She's happy. His are NOT being met (well, one of his).

So what's he supposed to do? Meet her needs _more_?

I mean, I'm in this same position. I have literally asked my wife what else I can do, am I missing something, am I NOT meeting your needs? The answer is always no, everything's great, I love you. She appreciates everything I do, for her, for us, for the kids, for the house, for whatever. She tells me she appreciates it. She does her own fair share, of course - this isn't one-sided.

But according to her, there's not one need of hers that I'm not meeting.

I could be wrong, but it sounds like OP and his wife are the same. He IS being a good husband and partner.

What else does he need to do, in order to NOT have his wife tell him to go jerk off when he expresses interest in being sexually intimate with her?


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

alexm said:


> I think we've lost track here.
> 
> OP said that he goes above and beyond to meet his wife's needs. They're being met. She's happy. His are NOT being met (well, one of his).
> 
> ...


He can listen to a clinical psychologist who has decades of experience solving sexual issues in marriage by getting the couple to agree to date 15 hours a week:

"When a husband meets his wife's needs for affection and intimate conversation, she finds it much easier to meet his need for sexual fulfillment. Of course, the converse is also true. The more she meets his need for sexual fulfillment, the easier it is for him to meet her emotional needs for affection and intimate conversation.

I have created a rule that's designed to help couples meet each other's most important emotional needs. I call it the Policy of Undivided Attention: Give your spouse your undivided attention a minimum of 15 hours each week using the time to meet each other's emotional needs for affection, intimate conversation, sexual fulfillment and recreational companionship. This rule helps turn a sexual act into a sexual event. As a result, couples who follow this policy are able to increase their frequency of lovemaking with enthusiastic agreement. They plan a four-hour date four times a week where all four emotional needs are met on each date."

No where has the OP said he has done this- in fact, he said he should work towards this because it isn't happening in his marriage.

Alex, I remember you said you and your wife do spend a lot of time together- but do you really spend 15 hours/week dating? Or are you counting time passing each other in the kitchen, watching tv, doing chores? Dating is an entirely different thing. Women whose husbands treat them like they did when they were exclusively dating will desire sex as much as they did when they were exclusively dating.


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## Juice (Dec 5, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> And the majority of women feel more connected to their partner when he makes time to talk with her and show interest in her, and be affectionate. And (many but not all) women who don't feel emotionally connected to their partner are not going to be interested in having sex (especially one-sided sex) without an environment that makes her feel emotionally connected.


I totally agree with you @Jessica38. It sounded like OP did attempt to connect to his W but nothing was changing therefore OP checked out and is now giving the cold shoulder and now is resenting her.





Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


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## astral.wheats (May 18, 2017)

Juice said:


> I totally agree with you @Jessica38. It sounded like OP did attempt to connect to his W but nothing was changing therefore OP checked out and is now giving the cold shoulder and now is resenting her.


I think we meet each other's needs for conversation, but not necessarily recreation. I work a lot at home, and I have my own hobbies and activities that are important to me. So, lately we don't do a lot of things together, aside from sharing meals and watching TV if we're both zonked. The balance between doing my own thing, and finding things we can enjoy together is something I'll need to figure out.


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## Juice (Dec 5, 2013)

astral.wheats said:


> I think we meet each other's needs for conversation, but not necessarily recreation. I work a lot at home, and I have my own hobbies and activities that are important to me. So, lately we don't do a lot of things together, aside from sharing meals and watching TV if we're both zonked. The balance between doing my own thing, and finding things we can enjoy together is something I'll need to figure out.


Oh. Yea man you have to figure that out and it should be fun for you and not a chore. Don't expect sex right away it takes time. 

It's a two way street. Maybe look into some self help books that require both of you to understand each other more. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

alexm said:


> So what's he supposed to do? Meet her needs _more_?


Elementary, my dear Alex. She expects 95% effort for 5% return. 

This works for a while until the giver has a major WTF moment and realizes he's being played by the taker.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

astral.wheats said:


> Wow, that is a really interesting and powerful way to think about intimacy. It reminds me of the work of Emmanuel Levinas, a French philosopher. I think I will look into this, it sounds like something that would be good to try with the wife.


Don't be surprised if it is hard work for both you and your wife. 

Good luck.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

mary35 said:


> It seems you are basically getting variations of two conflicting pieces of advice here from various posters..................


Whoa! Mary, you really need to go professional with this stuff!


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Accepting one way sex - when it is freely offered - is fine. I do so without hesitation.
> 
> But asking for it - is a very bad idea. Sorry.


Just as a counter-point....

I once asked my wife if it's "okay to ask".

Her response "If you don't ask, how am I supposed to know that you want a blowjob?".

This seems right to me. I greatly enjoy making my wife happy. 

It sure helps if I know exactly what she wants.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

astral.wheats said:


> I think the 'responsive desire' idea is one we've researched a bit. I think she recognizes that this is her arousal pattern--she even pointed me to articles to read. .


So she *knows* about responsive desire and her takeaway from her readings is what? That she therefore has no obligation to give herself an opportunity to let you get her in the mood? That she should only have sex if she's spontaneously aroused? 

I don't think she did enough reading. 



Anon Pink said:


> She is reacting to your intentions because she knows you are touching her that way to turn her on and for some reason this makes her feel manipulated. In truth, she is being manipulated. Manipulated into being aroused. Yes...and....?
> 
> *The shift needs to be in the attitude toward sex.* Does she think sex should be some organic unplanned spontaneous event? If she allows herself to be intentionally aroused what does that mean? Ask her?


The bolded.

I'm not a big fan of "The Talk" but I'd begin the next one by stating your assumptions: 

That she loves you. 

That she wants you to be happy. 

That she values being married to you.

That she understands that this is a big problem for you and that she is willing to put *some* level of effort into improving the situation.

Ask her if those assumptions are valid before proceeding.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Attitudes about sex are multilayered but it's been my experience that young(er) women seem to think they are giving it up. They are not giving it up to their husbands. This is the confusing messaging girls and women struggle with. Don't give it up, make him work for it, make him put a ring on it, make him prove his worth. Okay but now you're married so....he has done all of that and you can ditch the attitude that you're giving something up.


Yup.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Practicalities can get in the way of some of that. We generally finish essential chores around 8 every day (after work), and she needs to be in bed by 9:30 to get enough sleep to get up at 6 the next morning for work. We try to spend 8-9:30 together, but half the time she just wants to read. 

We generally spend all of our weekends together - but about half of that is chores.



Jessica38 said:


> He can listen to a clinical psychologist who has decades of experience solving sexual issues in marriage by getting the couple to agree to date 15 hours a week:
> 
> "When a husband meets his wife's needs for affection and intimate conversation, she finds it much easier to meet his need for sexual fulfillment. Of course, the converse is also true. The more she meets his need for sexual fulfillment, the easier it is for him to meet her emotional needs for affection and intimate conversation.
> 
> ...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

astral.wheats said:


> I think we meet each other's needs for conversation, but not necessarily recreation. I work a lot at home, and I have my own hobbies and activities that are important to me. So, lately we don't do a lot of things together, aside from sharing meals and watching TV if we're both zonked. The balance between doing my own thing, and finding things we can enjoy together is something I'll need to figure out.


Turn off the damned TV!


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

astral.wheats said:


> I wonder how many people feel like they don't have to work for that sanctuary.


The very lucky ones.

The ones who are married to someone who genuinely cares about their happiness.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

uhtred said:


> Practicalities can get in the way of some of that. We generally finish essential chores around 8 every day (after work), and she needs to be in bed by 9:30 to get enough sleep to get up at 6 the next morning for work. We try to spend 8-9:30 together, but half the time she just wants to read.
> 
> We generally spend all of our weekends together - but about half of that is chores.


Agreed. Practicalities also get in the way of sexual desire, which is why a goal of having sex every day is unrealistic for most people- most women will need time for other intimate emotional needs to be met in order to be enthusiastic about having sex.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Practicalities can get in the way of some of that. We generally finish essential chores around 8 every day (after work), and she needs to be in bed by 9:30 to get enough sleep to get up at 6 the next morning for work..


10 pm to 6 am sleep every day? Holy 🐮. My wife is like that too. Worse in fact, couple days a week she wakes up at 5 am for offshore conference call. Bed by 730 then.

I can't recall when I got SIX hours of sleep a day, and 8? Not a prayer.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Every day??? That would be wonderful, but many of us would be happy with once a week, and some once a month. 

I'd like twice a week. 



Jessica38 said:


> Agreed. Practicalities also get in the way of sexual desire, which is why a goal of having sex every day is unrealistic for most people- most women will need time for other intimate emotional needs to be met in order to be enthusiastic about having sex.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

uhtred said:


> Every day??? That would be wonderful, but many of us would be happy with once a week, and some once a month.
> 
> I'd like twice a week.


Twice a week sounds perfectly reasonable to me, as long as the other 3 intimate needs in the marriage are being met regularly. The OP mentioned that daily would be his ideal, but he realizes the need to compromise to make time for the other 3.


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