# Do you believe you are also responsible for your spouses infidelity?



## Feeling-Lonely (Nov 13, 2013)

I realize this is highly provocative thread.

Is the cheated on spouse completely faultless? Isn't everything shared responsibility in a marriage? I guess the question is about a proportion of the responsibility the act of cheating is the most but not all, I don't believe so. 

There hasn't been an infidelity in my marriage, (am I cosmically asking for it?) I know, I don't have much to built my opinion on, since I have never experienced it for myself but I have however witnessed it in my family. 

My dad cheated on my mom, for two years. He eventually left my mom and is still very much happy with my step-mom, the mistress. 

My dad also raised all the children by himself and for me is the best dad in the world. He has sacrificed so much for us. My mom has always been a mess, still is. They were very young when married, started having children right way, I see the mistakes they both made. I know, my dad should have left before the affair but he is just a human and made a mistake. My mom made many mistakes, completely relaying on my dad for anything and not helping much at all. She believed because she is a woman she is entitled for things, very wrong. 

After the divorce she had option to get a job and support the kids and get shared custody but she didn't want to get and keep a job so my dad raised all of us. My step-mom has been wonderful too. 

This is getting too long, I hope you got my point, do you agree? Not everyone who cheats is a moral-less monster and not everyone cheated on blameless.


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## sandals (May 8, 2014)

Absolutely disagree. 100%. Share the issues, work together to fix them, if it's a no-go then leave the marriage. There is never an excuse for cheating. Ever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

A person who cheats has 100% responsibility for the choice of cheating. However, by the time many people cheat, they don't care about the marriage anymore.

Both spouses share in responsibility for the state of the marriage. It would be nice to be able to always say that the responsibility is 50/50. But in real life there is often one spouse who has done more wrong, or the majority of wrong, in a marriage.

There is a book that does a good job of explaining how marriage dynamics play into an affair.. "Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Harley.


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## Feeling-Lonely (Nov 13, 2013)

sandals said:


> Absolutely disagree. 100%. Share the issues, work together to fix them, if it's a no-go then leave the marriage. There is never an excuse for cheating. Ever.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with that there is no excuses but I also understand the human error, human weaknesses.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Feeling-Lonely said:


> I realize this is highly provocative thread.
> 
> Is the cheated on spouse completely faultless? Isn't everything shared responsibility in a marriage? I guess the question is about a proportion of the responsibility the act of cheating is the most but not all, I don't believe so.
> 
> ...


Perhaps your mom was a mess because your father was a cheater and always put on the blame on her for his infidelity, and he's passed a bit of that on to you. While cheating on your mother, your father was being a moral-less monster.. If you ask her if she wanted him to cheat on her, and she said that yes, he asked and she said it was okay, then she does share some blame. Otherwise, it was his choice, not hers to not fix his marriage or leave his marriage, instead he made a dysfunctional marriage and now he has a child that's confused about what's wrong and what's right and who's to blame for making decisions. You've been gas lit to believe that cheating is partly the fault of the betrayed spouse. The one that was lied to and deceived, and made to think things were fine so they wouldn't discover an affair. This is what cheaters want you to believe. Your father did a good job in that aspect.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

You take the responsibility, I'll take the blame... 

No, sorry, a person is inherently responsible for his/her own actions. Otherwise, we could easily get out of...oh... say.. Speeding tickets, shop lifting, breaking and entering, adultery, cheating, kissing OM/W.

Your loving spouse would have to have forced you to text, then sext, then meet, hold hands, kiss. They would have forced you to complain about them and force you to follow the cheaters script. Would your spouse then force you to lie about it all?

And still, you could have responded and said no to the attempted forcing. But even in this case, you would be powerless to resist your spouse forcing you to cheat.

Sorry, no. The cheater owns it. Period.


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## Feeling-Lonely (Nov 13, 2013)

russell28 said:


> Perhaps your mom was a mess because your father was a cheater and always put on the blame on her for his infidelity, and he's passed a bit of that on to you. While cheating on your mother, your father was being a moral-less monster.. If you ask her if she wanted him to cheat on her, and she said that yes, he asked and she said it was okay, then she does share some blame. Otherwise, it was his choice, not hers to not fix his marriage or leave his marriage, instead he made a dysfunctional marriage and now he has a child that's confused about what's wrong and what's right and who's to blame for making decisions. You've been gas lit to believe that cheating is partly the fault of the betrayed spouse. The one that was lied to and deceived, and made to think things were fine so they wouldn't discover an affair. This is what cheaters want you to believe. Your father did a good job in that aspect.


I am not confused, I know that cheating is wrong but so is being ignorant, lazy, abusive, selfish etc etc. The cheating is always the big deal breaker. The cheated on spouses have so to speak the get out of jail card to any responsibility. 

Unfortunately There is no black or white in life, it is more complicated.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

TAM is a pro-marriage site with an anti-cheating philosophy. But just because somebody is the victim of an unethical, dishonest betrayal, which is what cheating is by definition, it does not follow that they must have been a good person and the transgressor a bad person. A thief, rapist, murderer, etc. can be the the victim of a mugger. A person who commits a crime need not be a habitual criminal.

Sexual infidelity is a hurtful act and yet society does not judge it a crime. Furthermore, it is not even a civil violation of the law. Not surprisingly cheaters get the message that it is not that bad. So TAM's collective outrage is a protest against common morality.

Sex is a powerful urge. Can it be criminalized?

Also the level of cheating is very high. Can all the cheaters be bad people? Are some of them sorry on their own?

Was your father every remorseful?


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

In some situations the actions of the future betrayed spouse can push the spouse over the edge. Like a with lot of misdemeanors, I've been around long enough to understand why a spouse may take that path when treated like crap day in and day out.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I believe I'm as much resposible for my wife cheating as she was resposeble for getting hit by me.

My point being.... bad behavior is no ones resposibility but the one with the bad behavior.

I fixed my bull crap and so did my old lady. Now here we are years later and a lot better off taking resposiblity for our own unhealthy choices we made years ago.

If me or her ever thought the other was the cause of such a crappy way to treat one another we would have never have made it.

If your screwing around on your spouse and you think its their fault then good luck cuz the same crap is going to happen again with the next relationship, and the next and the next.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Feeling-Lonely said:


> I agree with that there is no excuses but I also understand the human error, human weaknesses.


My Dad had an almost 3 year affair but my parents reconciled, went to marriage counseling and have now been married for 50 years. 

It's difficult because you, (general you), love your Dad and he's on this pedestal but he did this one really bad thing. It can send you reeling.

I'm probably going to be blasted for this because it's going to sound like I'm making excuses for my Dad, I don't know, maybe I am but I understand what you mean by human weakness. I was around 23 when the affair was exposed and I look back at that time leading up to his affair and it was like a perfect storm. 

He was almost killed in a car accident, on seizure meds as a result of said accident, his father and mother's death within a short period of time of each other, dealing with the estate and his fighting siblings, owning a business that was having a bad year, mid 40's midlife crisis, a wife who is not exactly an easy person to live with and who knows if the marriage was a happy one. I just think he was at a time in his life when he was weak, vulnerable and ripe for the picking by predatory single mom that wanted my mom's life.


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## Feeling-Lonely (Nov 13, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Was your father every remorseful?


Yes, my father has had this conversation with me and with my mom too, he is remorseful and aware of his faults. His biggest character flaw is inability to make a decision and fallow through when the time is right, he drags things, was like that with the marriage and the business he owned. He has seen therapist, goes now and then.


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## P51Geo1980 (Sep 25, 2013)

I've never been cheated on, nor have I ever cheated. I don't condone it and cheating is 100% the responsibility of the individual that cheated.

That being said...

Having been in a completely one-sided and loveless/sexless marriage for almost seven years, I can completely see how someone could be pushed into the arms of someone else. Yeah, we talked and she promised to change but never did. In the end, I had a little more integrity than to cheat...but only a little. There were a lot of very VERY lonely nights when I went back and forth and toyed with the idea of cheating. To be honest, I don't think she would have actually cared if I did or not. It doesn't really matter now, since I'm in the process of divorce.

BS' always want to know the reason why the cheating spouse cheated, yet when confronted with the reason (i.e., the cheating spouse was pushed away, the BS didn't put much effort into the relationship, etc..), the BS will not accept that as a reason. The only thing the BS wants to hear is that the WS was selfish. That won't solve the problem of why the WS felt like they were pushed to cheat or had no other option but to cheat.

All too often the BS here talks about how they failed in the marriage and then it is NEVER discussed again after the first post. If I had cheated and my wife pulled the 180 on me, it would have been further validation that she didn't care one iota about me. The BS may have been cheated on, but they really need to examine their roll in the demise of the marriage. I understand people don't like to hear things that are hard on them and that I'll probably be flamed for this response - I won't be responding to anyone who responds to me.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Do I believe I'm responsible for the infidelity? Three words:

HELL FRACKING NO

Am I the perfect husband? Not by a longshot. No one is. Infidelity is a choice of the individual. We are all responsible for our own actions. The only way I would be responsible is if I held a gun to her head and forced her to cheat.

The BS is 50% responsible for the state of the marriage pre-affair, and so was the WS. The WS is 100% responsible for the affair itself. You communicate, communicate, communicate. If that doesn't work, then do the right thing and end the marriage. Cheating doesn't fix anything. Its selfish.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

P51Geo1980 said:


> BS' always want to know the reason why the cheating spouse cheated, yet when confronted with the reason (i.e., the cheating spouse was pushed away, the BS didn't put much effort into the relationship, etc..), the BS will not accept that as a reason.


Because it's not a reason to cheat. You communicate first and try to get your spouse to work on the marriage. If that doesn't work then you do the honorable thing and end the marriage. Being needy isn't an excuse to cheat. 



P51Geo1980 said:


> The only thing the BS wants to hear is that the WS was selfish. That won't solve the problem of why the WS felt like they were pushed to cheat or had no other option but to cheat.


Because it's true. And please don't say that the ONLY reason people cheat is because they felt neglected. That's ony ONE of many reasons that people cheat.

I've been on the cheater form like Doc Freeze, and there was a thread by a WW who confirmed that her husband really was a great guy but she just cheats because she wants to. Its exciting for her.



P51Geo1980 said:


> All too often the BS here talks about how they failed in the marriage and then it is NEVER discussed again after the first post.





P51Geo1980 said:


> If I had cheated and my wife pulled the 180 on me, it would have been further validation that she didn't care one iota about me.


Because you understand what the 180 is. She wouldn't be using it to manipulate you, its to detach herself from your cheating butt.



P51Geo1980 said:


> The BS may have been cheated on, but they really need to examine their roll in the demise of the marriage.


We all do that. 



P51Geo1980 said:


> I understand people don't like to hear things that are hard on them and that I'll probably be flamed for this response - I won't be responding to anyone who responds to me.


So you say people don't want to hear things that are hard on them, yet you run away yourself. Pot meet kettle.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

P51Geo1980 said:


> I've never been cheated on, nor have I ever cheated. I don't condone it and cheating is 100% the responsibility of the individual that cheated.
> 
> That being said...
> 
> Having been in a completely one-sided and loveless/sexless marriage for almost seven years, I can completely see how someone could be pushed into the arms of someone else.


My answer to you, my answer to mstxw - _in fact the answer mstxw would give to you is this_ -

"I should have left when I knew I was looking to cheat"

*She says that now* 

and that is is exactly why there is only ONE answer to any of this blame percentage 

You get so unhappy you want to cheat? - *then finish it* and be the single person you clearly want to be 

It's so fking easy this bit - *EASY*! and is the bit that is forever the lump of steel in your heart after being cheated on - would I have cheated if I got to that point with her? Did I look for someone else knowing what it would do to mstbx? NO I didn't I knew the pain and suffering it would cause her and my kids etc etc so it's not even an option.

We agreed within months of getting together 17 years ago that *the ONE thing we would not do is to cheat* , if either of us ever got so unhappy we felt like we would then we agreed we would finish - it would of course hurt but at least there would be future respect for the other should it happen

Have a guess as to who kept his part of that bargain!!


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## sirdano (Dec 30, 2011)

Yes and no

The person that cheats is 100% at fault but sometimes you got to look what got them to this place.

Was the partner un-loving, self centered, abusive, demeaning, etc. These can all lead to someone falling out of love and looking somewhere else for it. Then this comes down to total willpower and self control to either put up with the "crap" or seek what they want somewhere else.

Remember to other partner might not see themself as the problem. Refuse to seek help, etc. The cheater should really at this point file for devorce before they become the cheater


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Feeling-Lonely said:


> I am not confused, I know that cheating is wrong but so is being ignorant, lazy, abusive, selfish etc etc. The cheating is always the big deal breaker. The cheated on spouses have so to speak the get out of jail card to any responsibility.
> 
> Unfortunately There is no black or white in life, it is more complicated.


If you are ignorant, perhaps it's because you're being left in the dark by your partner. 

Your partner is being ignorant, so you choose to cheat to solve this problem. That sound pretty ignorant.

Your partner is lazy, so you choose the easy way out and instead of working on yourself, your relationship, your marriage, you lie and sneak and cheat. That sound pretty lazy.. marriage is hard work.

You aren't getting all your needs met, so you lie to your family, cheat on them and sneak around.. that sound pretty selfish to me.

The betrayed spouse is being gas lit, blame shifted and manipulated to the point where they have no idea what is real and what is fake. That sound pretty abusive to me.

Life isn't as complicated as people like to make it out.. there are some simple rules you can live by, like the do unto others thing. If you are upset your partner is selfish abusive and ignorant, the correct path to take is not to lower yourself below them, and become an even bigger abuser, more selfish and even more ignorant as you delude yourself and others that what you're doing is somehow justified.

TLDR: Two wrongs, still not making it right. No matter how you try to spin it, as long as your mother was unaware that her husband was cheating on her. You can't put any blame on her. You do because it's what your father wanted everyone to think. His affair was all okay, because it worked out for the best. The marriage was bad anyway, he's in love with his new OW so ripping his family apart, setting a horrible example for his children and crushing your mothers dreams was all okay in the end. Gas lighting 101. You've been brain washed.


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## Caz867 (Apr 29, 2014)

*Best of both worlds*

My husband keeps saying he cheated because our marriage was in trouble. As far as I know, I was as miserable as he was but chose not to cheat. I could have. Instead I focussed on my kids and extended family, I buried myself in work, and I also did volunteer work. It's a choice to cheat.

I think my husband cheated because he wanted the best of both worlds. The excitement of a love affair... and coming home to a sparkling clean home, home cooked meals, his shirts ironed, and be king of the castle.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> When I cheated on my husband thirty years ago...our marriage was not in a great place. However...it was totally my choice to cheat. So the affair was 100% my responsibility not his.
> *When my husband had a revenge affair two years later...it was also my responsibility*...because I am absolutely certain had I not had my affair...he would not have had his affair.
> 
> There are always circumstances that contribute to a failing relationship...not excuses...situations....but the bottom line is...cheating is a choice....made by a selfish person...and the bs is in no way responsible for that choice....they had no say in the choice at all. Which is why it is so devastating to the bs. We as cheaters...took away their voice. We decided their fate....


Revenge affairs are like any other affair, the responsibility of the person that makes the decision to go forward with it. 

Unless you drove him to his date....  

This is something that some WS just can't see. Others don't make us do things, we have control over our own decisions in life. Nobody pushes our buttons, we push our own buttons. We _can _blame others for pushing those buttons, but at the end of the day.. you really don't have any buttons on you that others can push. It's all you. He chose revenge, that's on him.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

*Re: Best of both worlds*



Caz867 said:


> My husband keeps saying he cheated because our marriage was in trouble. As far as I know, I was as miserable as he was but chose not to cheat. I could have. Instead I focussed on my kids and extended family, I buried myself in work, and I also did volunteer work. It's a choice to cheat.
> 
> I think my husband cheated because he wanted the best of both worlds. The excitement of a love affair... and coming home to a sparkling clean home, home cooked meals, his shirts ironed, and be king of the castle.


The old chicken egg.. what came first, him wanting to cheat or the marriage being miserable. Was it miserable because he checked out of it, and had a new and exciting 'friend'? Was putting effort and energy into that and not into the marriage? So you were being pushed away.. making you miserable.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

_Revenge affairs are like any other affair, the responsibility of the person that makes the decision to go forward with it. _

I agree with russell on this one, Mrs. JA. And I daresay JA himself would too. Your A did cause JA to question his own qualities as a man, but the way he chose to validate himself was all on him.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

russell28 said:


> ....
> 
> Life isn't as complicated as people like to make it out.. ....


That's enough - just that 

a phrase not seemingly eloquent BUT actually in terms of life choices experiences styles - as eloquent as it possibly could be 

If you try hard enough you can find, create, devise 'reasons' for anything.

'Justification' is a chip that is embedded in every adulterers brain and in 95% of cases it will never leave there either

I was a having a good day today until this thread made me think of the bullsh!t, history re writing deceit and betrayal of mstbxw - what a complete selfish entitled bastard she was / is

fkme


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Circumstances that might make cheating thinkable: if a spouse is in the military, they can refuse to accept divorce proceedings. Bull Winkle did this in Afghanistan. Thus, if a military spouse had a two-deployment overseas, they could refuse to allow divorce to go forward for a very long time.

I don't see why the State-side spouse should remain celibate during this time. The question is would they have a responsibility to inform the serviceman of their decision to go outside the marriage for sex?

This is not so simple. If they work in the military themselves, they could be violating regulations that could lead to court martial.

Consider a woman with a small child married to a policeman who drinks. They fight over his drinking. He accepts a post in Afghanistan in the military police and once there refuses to be served divorce papers.

Why should the wife wait or explain?



> ... military divorce is more complicated. It is different with it’s own unique rules regarding division of military pensions, residency requirements for filing for divorce, certain legal protections for the military member and emergency court orders pertaining to child support. Once you become familiar with the rules and federal laws that apply during a military divorce the divorce process is pretty straightforward.
> 
> Service members Civil Relief Act:
> Military members have legal protection from divorce proceedings that are not established for civilians. *Under the Service Members Civil Relief Act military members are protected from lawsuits including divorce proceedings so they can “devote their entire energy to the defense needs of the Nation.”* A court can delay legal proceedings for the time that the service member is on active duty and for up to 60 day following active duty.
> ...


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

When your marriage sucks, you have 4 choices.
- divorce
- work on it
- cheat
- do nothing

Each spouse makes their own choice, and whatever choice they make is all on them. If your spouse is lying in a coma for 10 years and you decide to hire a sex worker to relieve your needs, that choice is 100% on you. You could divorce first, you could choose not to do it.

It's the same argument as blaming the victim in a sexual assault.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Circumstances that might make cheating thinkable: if a spouse is in the military, they can refuse to accept divorce proceedings. Bull Winkle did this in Afghanistan. Thus, if a military spouse had a two-deployment overseas, they could refuse to allow divorce to go forward for a very long time.
> 
> I don't see why the State-side spouse should remain celibate during this time. The question is would they have a responsibility to inform the serviceman of their decision to go outside the marriage for sex?
> 
> ...


If at some point the spouse wanted a divorce, or asked for a divorce, they made it clear to the other that they are no longer interested in a relationship. 

In your scenario, the wife can explain because she can be honest and let him know his drinking is a deal breaker, and she's no longer invested in the relationship, she wants out. If he doesn't want to let her, and holds her hostage, she doesn't need to tell him what she's up to. That's not really cheating, because she was honest and told him she's done with him. She asked for a divorce and he refused to play nice. She didn't trick him into thinking things are fine while she cheated on him. She gave him an option and he didn't take it. She can be honest.


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## nikoled (Mar 12, 2014)

I am not responsible for my husband's choice to have an affair. I am, however, partially responsible for the state of our marriage prior to the affair. 

We are only 6 weeks post dday and are working hard on R. Now that he is out of the fog he is disgusted in his actions- he has always taken full responsibility for his choices and seems to be filled with enormous regret. 

I had a revelation about 6 weeks prior to dday that our marriage was not doing well. I did not suspect an affair. I knew there were things wrong with the marriage and was taking responsibility and action for the parts that were "my fault" (i.e. putting the kids ahead of my husband, being too controlling, etc). I was working hard on these things and thought my husband was too, but didn't realize there was a third wheel in our marriage....

We are working really hard on reconciliation. My husband has HUGE regrets that he did not come to me and avoided our issues by turning to another woman. So now we have not only the issues our marriage had prior to the affair we also have my trust issues, heartbreak, and devastation and his tremendous guilt, shame, and his own devastation- it is hard to see the harm you have caused.


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

Both people are responsible for the state of the marriage, but it doesn't mean it's okay to cheat.


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## HubbyDaddy2013 (Jul 2, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> When I cheated on my husband thirty years ago...our marriage was not in a great place. However...it was totally my choice to cheat. So the affair was 100% my responsibility not his.
> When my husband had a revenge affair two years later...it was also my responsibility...because I am absolutely certain had I not had my affair...he would not have had his affair.
> 
> There are always circumstances that contribute to a failing relationship...not excuses...situations....but the bottom line is...cheating is a choice....made by a selfish person...and the bs is in no way responsible for that choice....they had no say in the choice at all. Which is why it is so devastating to the bs. We as cheaters...took away their voice. We decided their fate....


:iagree:


I am glad caught my wife early on in a Texting/Sexting EA with this other Married Man(who has6 kids). She has turned a new leaf since, and our marriage is improving since (It has only been 3-4 weeks). She is also a self centered person. Perhaps it is more likely for self centered people who are also selfish at times to cheat.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

The state of the marriage falls on both. The decision to cheat falls on one.

I did not play a part in my wifes affair. Our marriage wasnt great at the time because she chose to check out, she chose to shut me out. She needed something I couldnt provide. She needed external validation and self worth. I couldnt give those to her no matter how hard I tried. 

She shut me out, had her affair, and then placed all her guilt and shame on me. She was never neglected, unloved, abused, or treated badly. She was broken...bottom line.


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## rrrbbbttt (Apr 6, 2011)

Not for her initial choice, all on her. 

Once discovered, feel some responsibility for it continuing for a short time, did not have TAM guidelines then, tried to Nice it out WRONG,WRONG, WRONG!!!

Changes a person forever.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*To a certain extent, the cheating spouse will largely target their partner as the primary "cause" of their infidelity ~ it's always easier to place the blame on someone other than the person whose reflection emanates from the mirror!*

*It is preeminently the inherent duty of the unfaithful, cheating spouse to take ownership of their sordid actions ~ but as we all too often see, and with very few exceptions, that is a price that they are just so unwilling to pay in order to bolster their jaded feeling of entitlement in their self-serving, pleasurable but prurient interests!*


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Are you kidding me?

Of course both parties contributed to the issues in the marriage, usually to different degrees-but both clearly contributed.  Until......

the WS made the *CHOICE* to engage in acts of infidelity. They had choices and chose the path of lies, and deceit and betrayal.
The WS could have
1. Communicated with the BS about their unhappiness
2. Sought IC for the issues they felt they could not address within the relationship
3. Insisted on MC for the couple 
3. Ended the relationship

Rather than take any other choice, the WS committed acts of infidelity. Do not foist that selfish choice upon the BS.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I know mine will not be the popular opinion on this but yes I do have some responsibility in the infidelity. I certainly didn't force her to screw another man but I picked a clearly damaged woman who cheated on every relationship she had ever been in and convinced myself if I loved her enough she wouldn't make me victim 4. So when I had that mindset I had no boundaries. Things she did that made me uncomfortable went unsaid. In some way I know that in the end I became desperate and tried to give her anything and everything to get loved returned only to have her loose respect for me as her man.

So in my view I didn't make the cheating occur but I married a woman who would never be faithful to anyone. I need to own that because I knew better but did it anyway. I found that owning my part of that helped me, through counseling, move on and past it. That maybe won't help everyone but for my type a personality it's the only way I could reconcile it.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> I know mine will not be the popular opinion on this but yes I do have some responsibility in the infidelity. I certainly didn't force her to screw another man but I picked a clearly damaged woman who cheated on every relationship she had ever been in and convinced myself if I loved her enough she wouldn't make me victim 4. So when I had that mindset I had no boundaries. Things she did that made me uncomfortable went unsaid. In some way I know that in the end I became desperate and tried to give her anything and everything to get loved returned only to have her loose respect for me as her man.
> 
> So in my view I didn't make the cheating occur but I married a woman who would never be faithful to anyone. I need to own that because I knew better but did it anyway. I found that owning my part of that helped me, through counseling, move on and past it. That maybe won't help everyone but for my type a personality it's the only way I could reconcile it.


*If she honestly told you prior to your nuptials that there had been three other victims, and that there was a potential of you being Candidate No. 4, then you were largely forewarned! Contingent on the amount of love and forgiveness that you had in your heart for her probably contributed to you giving her "a walk" on setting marital boundaries other than the precursory marital expectations that "if I ask her to marry me, she just loves me so much that while she might well cheat on other spouses, that she would never ever entertain the thought of cheating on someone like me!" 

I was the same way! I had blinders on! My mantra was largely "love conquers all!" And with not one scintilla of an expectation of some hidden land mine! It would have been totally disrespectful to have asked my rich skanky XW if she had ever been unfaithful to her first spouse ~ I was simply in love with her!

But after the divorce process ensued, then I find out from "mutual friends" that she did indeed cheat on Hubby No. 1 while he was away travelling on business and during a rather lengthy hospitalization.

If there is to be another Mrs. Arbitrator, that will be a question that I will have absolutely no problem in asking, and one that I would hope and pray that she wouldn't have a problem asking of me! And if she happens to answer in the affirmative, then the onus is largely on me to either quash or to foster the relationship, knowing full well that by her answer, that I was duly forewarned!*


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Is the cheated on spouse completely faultless?


*He/She (cheated on spouse) is faultless regarding only the cheating.*

Cheating is in a class by itself in terms of marriage relationships. No other act drives a knife right through the heart of trust like cheating. Trust makes marriage special and is vital for love. *If the marriage is so bad that you will resort to cheating then the spouse should separate or divorce instead of cheating.*

Cheating damages the BS and the WS. Separation and divorce can be easier to recover from than cheating and does not attack the core of your self esteem like betrayal does.
*Cheating is in a class all by itself!*


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

nikoled said:


> I am not responsible for my husband's choice to have an affair. I am, however, partially responsible for the state of our marriage prior to the affair.
> 
> We are only 6 weeks post dday and are working hard on R. Now that he is out of the fog he is disgusted in his actions- he has always taken full responsibility for his choices and seems to be filled with enormous regret.
> 
> ...


When my wife told me I was too controlling, I told her it appears that I wasn't controlling enough. She obviously couldn't control herself... so somebody had to try. I told her that if she didn't spend so much time trying to make me jealous, and invested a little bit of time making me feel safe and being honest with me, perhaps I wouldn't have been trying to control things that made me uncomfortable. 

I also pointed out when this came up in MC, that a person that's cheating is deceiving, lying and manipulating the betrayed spouse, they are intentionally misleading the spouse about what is really happening and leaving them in the dark about important decisions that impact both partners lives. That is controlling.. me telling her that I thought she should wear pants that don't show her ass crack when she bends over to work, I think that was more of a reasonable request from a husband to a wife and not me being too controlling.

Be wary of that word "controlling", it comes up often as someone that had an affair tries to rewrite the marriage, turning the betrayed spouse into some sort of monster that deserved to be cheated on.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

I don't think cheating necessarily makes someone a monster. Good people make bad choices. The choice to cheat is wrong. There are other options. 

Personally I see cheating as the most cowardly way to deal with marital challenges. It takes a strong person with conviction to say, 'This marriage is not working for me. I'm going to end it because that is the right thing to do.' Perhaps an even stronger person to say, 'I'm going to acknowledge the things I'm not doing well in this marriage, improve on them, and work with my spouse to fix our relationship.'

More often people will hedge their bets by starting the search for 'someone better' while maintaining the security of the marriage. If things don't work out they can go back to the way things were...or so they think.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

This is always an interesting discussion. Here's how I view it.

The cheater is 100% RESPONSIBLE for their cheating. They chose to do that act.

Now is every cheater the same and their situations the same....of course not.

Some cheaters are married to abusive, neglectful, hateful, bitter people. The cheater maybe completely starved of attention and affection. This is the key. There's understanding vs. responsible.

The cheater, in that situation is still 100% RESPONSIBLE for the cheating. Do I understand why they might...of course, but it doesn't absolve ANY of their responsibility.

They chose to cheat versus end their marriage. That's the crux of the entire issue. The cheater's choices.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

My cheating ex-wife could tell me both:

"It's your fault"

and

"It had nothing to do with you."

Essentially, I agree with the others who say that cheating is the fault of whomever decides to cheat.

Assigning an exact percentage of blame for the state of the marriage is folly.

That said, each owes their spouse 100% of their effort to make a good marriage. If that is not enough? End the marriage.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Yup. I use to believe in absolutes.

Absolutes aren't a good way to go when dealing with complex issues such as love and marriage.

I believe in cases of extreme neglect you get what you ask for. Be a good spouse, don't neglect or abuse your loved one, and then definitely the other spouse is blameless.

But if your an absolutely horrible partner why should you not take some of the blame?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

It's clear to me that sometimes the BS has neglected the marriage, and may have even rejected pleas from their spouse to work on things or go to MC to address issues. In those cases, they have weakened the WS's boundaries or even motivated them to seek getting their needs met elsewhere.

Here's an analogy: There's an ice and snow storm, and you don't shovel and salt your walkway. A delivery person comes to your home and slips and falls. You didn't make them fall - that's their carelessness, but you didn't correct the conditions that made it easy for them to slip, even knowing they existed.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> It's clear to me that sometimes the BS has neglected the marriage, and may have even rejected pleas from their spouse to work on things or go to MC to address issues. In those cases, they have weakened the WS's boundaries or even motivated them to seek getting their needs met elsewhere.
> 
> Here's an analogy: There's an ice and snow storm, and you don't shovel and salt your walkway. A delivery person comes to your home and slips and falls. You didn't make them fall - that's their carelessness, but you didn't correct the conditions that made it easy for them to slip, even knowing they existed.


Often by the time the BS gets the "I want to go to MC" and/or the ILYBINILWY, the WS has already broken boundaries .. and the spouse is blind sided by the request for MC, because the spouse that's been deceptive, and thinking about cheating, hasn't been totally honest, and has been tricking the BS into thinking things were okay so the affair would go undiscovered. So when they say "I asked for MC", was it just an excuse so they could say they tried? 

Did they really emphasize it, like I said to my wife when this came up "You didn't tell me you needed MC because you were thinking about f'ing the guy at work (or are already f'ing him on a regular basis), you told me it was because of stuff I thought I could work on without outside help, because I had no idea about the magnitude of what you were really saying I thought you also agreed that we could work on it, and then you pretended to work on things while you continued to cheat and I worked on things without cheating."

So in this case, your wife knows the walk is icy, tells you the walk is icy, you think it's not a huge deal, people have icy walks.. then you find out your wife was banging the delivery guy. If she said "walk is icy, delivery guy is coming and he might fall into my vagina" I bet he'd have salted the walk, driveway, street..

So how about you're in a room with no windows, wife tells you it's snowing out.. but forgets to mention it's icy, there's a delivery guy coming, it's very dangerous conditions..


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Feeling-Lonely said:


> This is getting too long, I hope you got my point, do you agree? Not everyone who cheats is a moral-less monster and not everyone cheated on blameless.


Thanks for the slap in the face.

The cheated on is not blameless FOR THE HEALTH OF THE MARRIAGE/RELATIONSHIP. Both partners are responsible for that.

They are in NO WAY to blame for the cheater's immoral decision to gratify themselves with someone outside the marriage/relationship.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Thanks for the slap in the face.
> 
> The cheated on is not blameless FOR THE HEALTH OF THE MARRIAGE/RELATIONSHIP. Both partners are responsible for that.
> 
> They are in NO WAY to blame for the cheater's immoral decision to gratify themselves with someone outside the marriage/relationship.


So true, call it what you want.. moral-less monster, jerk.. someone that is cheating, while cheating and/or justifying cheating, are showing no morals, setting a poor example, lying, deceiving, sneaking.. none of those are very honorable things. I could very easily see calling someone engaging in an affair a 'monster' since they are abusing and taking advantage of people that love them and care about them. That's cold and cruel.

..and no, not every spouse is blameless for whatever problems they had in the relationship, but how can they have any blame at all for something they've had hidden from them. Something they were kept in the dark about. They were tricked, they only blame is on being naive and on trusting someone to be honest and to do the right thing.

I don't think these folks that post this question realize they are in fact saying ' you made your spouse cheat on you by not being perfect '.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

P51Geo1980 said:


> BS' always want to know the reason why the cheating spouse cheated, yet when confronted with the reason (i.e., the cheating spouse was pushed away, the BS didn't put much effort into the relationship, etc..), the BS will not accept that as a reason.


First of all, no, not all BS's "always" want to know the reason. I don't care the reason. I know not every marriage is perfect and its no excuse.

I don't need to know why the cheater cheated. All I need to know is that they did. Details, to me, mean nothing as they will be irrelevant to the outcome.




> The only thing the BS wants to hear is that the WS was selfish. That won't solve the problem of why the WS felt like they were pushed to cheat or had no other option but to cheat.


What will solve the problem? Assuming the BS decides to stay? Complete and total surrender of the BS and to tow the WS line and cater to all their wants?



> All too often the BS here talks about how they failed in the marriage and then it is NEVER discussed again after the first post. If I had cheated and my wife pulled the 180 on me, it would have been further validation that she didn't care one iota about me.


Bull. You don't get it because, as you say, never have been cheated on. Its one of the most hurtful things anyone can do. Your wife would have pulled a 180 because you hurt her deeply.

And I'll say it again, when a marriage is bad, both spouses have a responsibility in that. My marriage wasn't necessarily horrible, but we both had work to do in it. But she cheated. I didn't, and would have never done so. Why is that? 





> The BS may have been cheated on, but they really need to examine their roll in the demise of the marriage.


That's all fine, dandy, and understood. I agree.

But the BS has NO responsibility in the character flaw that led the WS to cheat. That is 100% on the WS.

And if the marriage was that bad, then it was because of both spouses, and one, usually, can refrain from going down the cheating path. Again, why is that?


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

P51Geo1980 said:


> I've never been cheated on, nor have I ever cheated. I don't condone it and cheating is 100% the responsibility of the individual that cheated.


Sorry, no matter what spin you try to put on it, the above does not jive with the following:



> Having been in a completely one-sided and loveless/sexless marriage for almost seven years, I can completely see how someone could be pushed into the arms of someone else.


The above indicates that you DO condone it to some, maybe even small degree, and don't believe its 100% on the cheater.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

russell28 said:


> Often by the time the BS gets the "I want to go to MC" and/or the ILYBINILWY, the WS has already broken boundaries .


Sometimes that may be true. Sometimes not.

If it makes you feel better to claim zero responsibility - true or not - then more power to you.

But if you have faults that contributed to marital issues, and refuse to recognize and deal with them, you may simply perpetuate problems in current or future relationships. I'm not saying this to lessen the WS's betrayal, but it is about making a better future, which is partly your responsibility.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

sirdano said:


> Yes and no
> 
> The person that cheats is 100% at fault but sometimes you got to look what got them to this place.



Why? So the BS can tow the WS's line out of fear it will happen again? I'm not saying that if a BS stays with a WS that they don't have some work to do in the marriage.

But if the marriage was that bad, then it was that bad for both spouses and in a lot of cases, one of them does not cheat when the other one did.

If a marriage is to survive, then both spouses need to own their crap. But to say we need to understand why the cheater cheated is basically emotional extortion. One should not work on themselves out of fear their WS uses some excuse to cheat again in the future.


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

Never been in the situation but I would think most times both spouses are at fault. If one spouse is unhappy about a aspect of the marriage and the spouse refuses to try to correct it. Yes the spouse should just leave but lawers and judges have made divorces expensive and complicated, so the spouse try to feel that void with an affair.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

*Re: Best of both worlds*



Caz867 said:


> My husband keeps saying he cheated because our marriage was in trouble. As far as I know, I was as miserable as he was but chose not to cheat.


Exactly, it all boils down to one thing......character


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> Sometimes that may be true. Sometimes not.
> 
> If it makes you feel better to claim zero responsibility - true or not - then more power to you.
> 
> But if you have faults that contributed to marital issues, and refuse to recognize and deal with them, you may simply perpetuate problems in current or future relationships. I'm not saying this to lessen the WS's betrayal, but it is about making a better future, which is partly your responsibility.


Good point.. I do remember one poster that said in the 'reasons they cheat' thread that his wife was bothered by him always putting the dishes in the dishwasher backwards. So he'd need to fix that if he's serious about R.

I've seen a ton of other 'faults', and some are pretty precious. 

My point was just that you need to have real information and can't be led to believe the problem is a 2 on a scale of 1-10 when your spouse thinks it's a 10. Especially if the spouse is downplaying the 'fault' you have, because they don't want you to know they're having an affair. They already solved it without letting you know how, then they pretend there's no problem. You might not understand the situation if you're being fed half-truths. It takes two to work on a relationship, and if the BS checks out, and makes it clear to the WS that they've checked out, then that I can almost see.. but in my post I said "often" for a reason. 

Sure I had faults, and I have faults.. and I was trying to work on those without cheating on my wife, the ones I was aware of. I'm always trying to be a better person, I don't want to cause anyone pain or make them not feel safe or loved. So I'll do what I can, assuming I have all the information I can put forth an appropriate effort.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

tornado said:


> Never been in the situation but I would think most times both spouses are at fault. If one spouse is unhappy about a aspect of the marriage and the spouse refuses to try to correct it. Yes the spouse should just leave but lawers and judges have made divorces expensive and complicated, so the spouse try to feel that void with an affair.


Ah very simple. 

Your excuses for when you cheat will be:

I was unhappy with ________ and my spouse refused to try to correct it.

Lawyers cost money.

Live is complicated.


You're going to make an excellent cheater. Best of luck to the person you marry.


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## CrazyBeautiful1 (Oct 21, 2013)

Feeling-Lonely said:


> I realize this is highly provocative thread.
> 
> Is the cheated on spouse completely faultless? Isn't everything shared responsibility in a marriage? I guess the question is about a proportion of the responsibility the act of cheating is the most but not all, I don't believe so.
> 
> ...


I absolutely, positively, take NO responsibility for my STBXH's choice to stray. I was everything I could be, devoted wife, loving mother.. Kept the house up, worked, took care of myself, met every need and desire and beyond. Anytime he came up with something new, I was on it.. 

Sadly, some people just can't be pleased, or content. Some people just never find true happiness, so they seek it anywhere they can. I accept that, but refuse to stay married to it.

While I take my part of the blame for the rough spots and arguments, in no way will I EVER accept responsibility for him taking the coward's way out.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Ok, for all those who are coming to the defense of the WS's, and yes, that is what you are doing despite the disclaimers, lets ask this of you.

Lets say the BS also thinks they are partly responsible for their WS's cheating. And lets say the BS stays in the marriage and busts their hump to correct all the little things that they, or their WS perceived, as their reasons for cheating.

What then, besides not cheating anymore, does the WS have to do? Some seem to think they can understand why the BS's actions pushed the WS into the arms of another person. And if that is the case, then what is the WS responsibility after a BS has made a commitment to work on their flaws?

I know, transparency, access to social media, yadda yadda. But if the "reason" for the infidelity was the BS's behaviors, and the BS corrects those behaviors, and both decide to move on, then why the transparency if the BS took care of what the WS, and some of you, perceive as the cause?


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

CrazyBeautiful1 said:


> I absolutely, positively, take NO responsibility for my STBXH's choice to stray. I was everything I could be, devoted wife, loving mother.. Kept the house up, worked, took care of myself, met every need and desire and beyond. Anytime he came up with something new, I was on it..
> 
> Sadly, some people just can't be pleased, or content. Some people just never find true happiness, so they seek it anywhere they can. I accept that, but refuse to stay married to it.


Oh come on now. There just HAD to be something we did or didn't do to push them to cheat. Just has to be.


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## CrazyBeautiful1 (Oct 21, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Oh come on now. There just HAD to be something we did or didn't do to push them to cheat. Just has to be.


:rofl:

LOL! Well according to my STBX, he just can't handle the thought of having sex with one person for the rest of his life.

Then, comes around trying to hook up since he knows I am SAFE, unlike the rest of the girls he hangs around.

Um, no.

At least mine didn't try to blame me. I'd probably smack him if he ever did.. I refuse to accept that it was MY fault that HE chose to seek out other women.. Especially since even HE has admitted that they don't come anywhere close to me, in any aspect. Downgrade, guess it's a self esteem boost. Such is life I guess!


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## CrazyBeautiful1 (Oct 21, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Ok, for all those who are coming to the defense of the WS's, and yes, that is what you are doing despite the disclaimers, lets ask this of you.
> 
> Lets say the BS also thinks they are partly responsible for their WS's cheating. And lets say the BS stays in the marriage and busts their hump to correct all the little things that they, or their WS perceived, as their reasons for cheating.
> 
> ...


Having been through this, it's a shame to say that sometimes, a cheater is a cheater! I was once told that our lack of sex life, etc was to blame for his affairs... But what do ya know, putting out daily for months led us to the same spot.. Another woman on the side.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Oh come on now. There just HAD to be something we did or didn't do to push them to cheat. Just has to be.


LOL No, _some_ people don't need any outside impetus to cheat. Some do.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

vellocet said:


> I know, transparency, access to social media, yadda yadda. But if the "reason" for the infidelity was the BS's behaviors, and the BS corrects those behaviors, and both decide to move on, then why the transparency if the BS took care of what the WS, and some of you, perceive as the cause?


I'm not sure what you're asking. By the time they get to this point, the original situation no longer exists, so even fixing faults is mainly for the benefit of the BS, and may have no impact on successful reconciliation. It may take some time and effort by both to get to that realization.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

michzz said:


> My cheating ex-wife could tell me both:
> 
> "It's your fault"
> 
> ...


*Totally in agreement, michzz! They should just do the far more honorable thing in ending the marriage and refusing to bed other prospects until such time that the marriage is finally and legally dissolved!*


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

russell28 said:


> When my wife told me I was too controlling, I told her it appears that I wasn't controlling enough. She obviously couldn't control herself... so somebody had to try. I told her that if she didn't spend so much time trying to make me jealous, and invested a little bit of time making me feel safe and being honest with me, perhaps I wouldn't have been trying to control things that made me uncomfortable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1,000 likes sir.


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## sandals (May 8, 2014)

OP - on second reading, it looks like you are trying to justify your dad's decisions by making the morally ambiguous. 

My opinion is that they are not morally ambiguous. But that doesn't have to impact your love for him. I get wanting to love the person who has nurtured you the most. Just be careful that your interpretation of that decision doesn't cloud your judgement on your own and others' marriages. 

I think that opening up a conversation with your dad might help you resolve your feelings. If he is the person you believe him to be, he should share his trepidations on what he did and help you form opinions for the future.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

I believe I am responsible for whether my wife decides to cheat or not. This is why I now keep her in a cage. So far, so good.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> I'm not sure what you're asking. By the time they get to this point, the original situation no longer exists, so even fixing faults is mainly for the benefit of the BS, and may have no impact on successful reconciliation. It may take some time and effort by both to get to that realization.


If someone believes that the BS's actions/behavior can cause a WS to cheat, then what does a WS in a scenario like that need to correct in themselves? Because the insinuation is, if the BS wasn't "neglectful", or "abusive" etc, then they wouldn't have cheated.


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## Feeling-Lonely (Nov 13, 2013)

Good answers, OK, I agree, the act of cheating is the cheater's responsibility and it indeed is a cowardly move. As many other my dad too came to this conclusion later on. 

That said, my mom thinks she has no responsibility in the state of the marriage before my dad cheated. The victim role is too "good" to pass, even years later, and then she accuses him for taking the kids away. As I mentioned before, she didn't want to work hard enough to be a mother. 

People would say that I am messed up and need therapy, I say, I saw weaknesses and strengths in the same person and I think that has better prepared me for life. 

Know, I have forgiven my mother her neglect and my father his weakness but it is not about me, I hope they can forgive themselves.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

> Do you believe you are also responsible for your spouses infidelity?


You want a direct answer to this question?

For me the answer is absolutely, NO.
I have no responsibility for her infidelity whatsoever.

Any problems that might have existed for her in the marriage, existed for me too. Yet I didn't cheat, and the thought would never have entered my mind. What does that tell you?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Feeling-Lonely said:


> my mom thinks she has no responsibility in the state of the marriage before my dad cheated.


That's too bad. She obviously has issues, whether from the cheating or otherwise.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

CrazyBeautiful1 said:


> I absolutely, positively, take NO responsibility for my STBXH's choice to stray. I was everything I could be, devoted wife, loving mother.. Kept the house up, worked, took care of myself, met every need and desire and beyond. Anytime he came up with something new, I was on it..
> 
> *Sadly, some people just can't be pleased, or content. Some people just never find true happiness,* so they seek it anywhere they can. I accept that, but refuse to stay married to it.
> 
> While I take my part of the blame for the rough spots and arguments, in no way will I EVER accept responsibility for him taking the coward's way out.


Same for me - sadly it took years and years of, some would say, my stupidity, for not getting this fact through my thick skull !

A well I finally learned ....the hard way


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

vellocet said:


> You want a direct answer to this question?
> 
> For me the answer is absolutely, NO.
> I have no responsibility for her infidelity whatsoever.
> ...


I neither agree nor disagree with you.

Everyone has their own journey, everyone deals the hand they are played and makes their own mistakes.

I'm glad the thought of cheating never entered your mind, but one day, assuming you are human and have a pulse, I believe it will. At that stage a whole lot of stuff will come into play.

Your problems in the marriage may have commonality with those of your spouse, but I doubt they are the same. You each brought your own baggage into the marriage. 

So, in a sense you are right. When my spouse cheated it was totally on her. She made a series of awful choices over an extended period, and I have paid a hell of a price for it. 

But are there circumstances in which I might not be strong enough....whenI might fail in a moment of weakness. Well, until it happens you never know, but I believe the answer is yes.

The talk of blame, responsibility, is in some ways not helpful. People fail, you have to come to terms with that to have relationships. In that sense, why people fail (and how likely a recurrence is) are what I care about more.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Wazza said:


> The talk of blame, responsibility, is in some ways not helpful. People fail, you have to come to terms with that to have relationships. In that sense, why people fail (and how likely a recurrence is) are what I care about more.


Talk of blame and responsibility was the very point of this thread. How is the world can you discuss why people fail and how likely it is to recur unless you address responsibility for one's actions.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> Talk of blame and responsibility was the very point of this thread. How is the world can you discuss why people fail and how likely it is to recur unless you address responsibility for one's actions.


Do you see that we are agreeing 100%?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

vellocet said:


> If someone believes that the BS's actions/behavior can cause a WS to cheat, then what does a WS in a scenario like that need to correct in themselves? Because the insinuation is, if the BS wasn't "neglectful", or "abusive" etc, then they wouldn't have cheated.


There's still a lot to correct in the WS. They could have tried raising and dealing with the issues with the BS before cheating. They could have asked for MC if professional help is needed for the issues at hand. They could have filed for separation or divorce to get the spouse's attention. They could try IC or other means to work on themselves to develop better boundaries and coping skills. And certainly after an affair, they need to do many of these things and provide transparency so that they can't revert - if the couple is going to try reconciliation.

If the BS has faults that provided the motivation (not an excuse) to seek solace (or whatever) elsewhere, those faults need to be addressed so that the motivation is eliminated, otherwise nothing much has changed except increased paranoia and dissatisfaction without hope of real improvement. Of course, sometimes (maybe often) the BS is essentially blameless, and has no motivating _fault_ - but may still lack some _positive _trait that could have lessened the attraction.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

The original poster left by the end of page ONE guys. lol

Which is probably a good thing, I was getting nauseous from all the excuses. That is a person all ready to cheat in my opinion. All the attitudes are there :

a. cheaters are only human
b. life isn't' black and white, it's complicated
c. my cheating father is quite happy with his mistress to this day
d. my dad "made a mistake"
e. I also understand the human error, human weaknesses
f. The cheated on spouses have so to speak the get out of jail card to any responsibility

Anyone with all these attitudes is headed for an affair eventually... just a matter of time.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Wazza said:


> I neither agree nor disagree with you.
> 
> Everyone has their own journey, everyone deals the hand they are played and makes their own mistakes.
> 
> I'm glad the thought of cheating never entered your mind, but one day, assuming you are human and have a pulse, I believe it will.


Wrong. If I love someone I will not cheat, won't even thing about it. In my mid 40's and it has never entered my mind yet.

But while we are on that subject, I'll never have to worry about cheating again. I'm single now and will stay that way.




> Your problems in the marriage may have commonality with those of your spouse, but I doubt they are the same. You each brought your own baggage into the marriage.


So what you are saying is that it wasn't my character that prevented me from cheating, its that she didn't do anything bad enough as I, as you might insinuate, did.

The only thing I did was not have the ability to shape shift into a different man about every other month or so.



> So, in a sense you are right. When my spouse cheated it was totally on her. She made a series of awful choices over an extended period, and I have paid a hell of a price for it.
> 
> But are there circumstances in which I might not be strong enough....whenI might fail in a moment of weakness. Well, until it happens you never know, but I believe the answer is yes.


That's you, not me.



> The talk of blame, responsibility, is in some ways not helpful. People fail, you have to come to terms with that to have relationships. In that sense, why people fail (and how likely a recurrence is) are what I care about more.


I don't care why they cheat. Because once they do it doesn't matter since I will no longer be with them.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> If the BS has faults that provided the motivation (not an excuse) to seek solace (or whatever) elsewhere, those faults need to be addressed so that the motivation is eliminated, otherwise nothing much has changed except increased paranoia and dissatisfaction without hope of real improvement.


Ok, so lets say the BS succumbs to this emotional extortion and bends over backwards, walks on eggshells to keep someone with cheating in their character to refrain from cheating, then what is the WS's responsibility from that point on, other than not cheating? You say the WS has a lot to fix, but everything you stated before the paragraph above is about the WS fixing the BS(except the IC), not themselves.




> Of course, sometimes (maybe often) the BS is essentially blameless, and has no motivating _fault_ - but may still lack some _positive _trait that could have lessened the attraction.


So in other words, if the BS isn't absolutely perfect in every way, the other spouse cheats.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

arbitrator said:


> *If she honestly told you prior to your nuptials that there had been three other victims, and that there was a potential of you being Candidate No. 4, then you were largely forewarned! Contingent on the amount of love and forgiveness that you had in your heart for her probably contributed to you giving her "a walk" on setting marital boundaries other than the precursory marital expectations that "if I ask her to marry me, she just loves me so much that while she might well cheat on other spouses, that she would never ever entertain the thought of cheating on someone like me!"
> 
> I was the same way! I had blinders on! My mantra was largely "love conquers all!" And with not one scintilla of an expectation of some hidden land mine! It would have been totally disrespectful to have asked my rich skanky XW if she had ever been unfaithful to her first spouse ~ I was simply in love with her!
> 
> ...



Ohh she didn't have to tell me I knew her since I was 14 years old, friends for most of it but I always wanted more. Young and dumb you think....if I love her enough then the daddy issues will just go away. But they don't. Older and wiser now and have a zero tolerance policy to date anyone who cheated ever for any reason. At some piling you have to start making better decisions in life


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> The original poster left by the end of page ONE guys. lol





Feeling-Lonely said:


> I realize this is highly provocative thread.


It was a drive by provocation :rofl:




> Which is probably a good thing, I was getting nauseous from all the excuses. That is a person all ready to cheat in my opinion. All the attitudes are there :
> 
> a. cheaters are only human
> b. life isn't' black and white, it's complicated
> ...


:iagree:


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> The original poster left by the end of page ONE guys. lol
> 
> Which is probably a good thing, I was getting nauseous from all the excuses. That is a person all ready to cheat in my opinion. All the attitudes are there :
> 
> ...


Excellent summary.

A great example of how role models play a key part in the justifications that cheaters can use. Gas lighting and blame shifting gets passed down generations, and is taught from a very young age. Cheating is all based around justifications, and in the case of a cheating role model that fed you justifications as a child.. you've already got a head start. This guy sounds like he's going to be just like dear old dad.. he'll continue to pass it down to his children, and won't break the chain. I hope he can for the sake of future generations. I hate to see cheaters making more cheaters, and it propagates.. it's out of control now, there are very few examples of good marriages left for people to learn from. It's an epidemic.

Often these hit-and-run posters start the most interesting conversations, usually about this same exact topic, and it usually gives the vibe that they are considering cheating and needing to justify it.. so they want others to back them up, not contradictory information. They aren't looking for truth, they are looking for a green light to sneak and lie.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

vellocet said:


> So in other words, if the BS isn't absolutely perfect in every way, the other spouse cheats.


That's a gross distortion of what I said, but if you see everything as black/white, then you'll never understand what I'm saying.

Given your own experience being cheated on, and the likelihood that you had no faults that motivated her, you may be bitter - to the point where you say you'll remain single forever - and so unwilling to see the shades of gray.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Ohh she didn't have to tell me I knew her since I was 14 years old, friends for most of it but I always wanted more. Young and dumb you think....if I love her enough then the daddy issues will just go away. But they don't. Older and wiser now and have a zero tolerance policy to date anyone who cheated ever for any reason. At some piling you have to start making better decisions in life


*Wolf: You are now as I have slowly become! Should I ever get serious about another woman again, I don't really care if she's ambulatory, in a wheelchair or even bedfast: I will have no equivocation in ferreting out if she has ever cheated on a prior spouse before.

And either a veiled or even a brazen direct reply in the affirmative would most assuredly be deemed to be a "dealbreaker," no matter what other positive benefits that she might possibly bring to the table!*


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Wrong. If I love someone I will not cheat, won't even thing about it. In my mid 40's and it has never entered my mind yet.
> 
> But while we are on that subject, I'll never have to worry about cheating again. I'm single now and will stay that way.





vellocet said:


> I don't care why they cheat. Because once they do it doesn't matter since I will no longer be with them.


I respect that. Deciding to stay single is the safest way. Personally I would rather risk relationship, but yes, it is a risk. I could not make the choice you have made, I would be lonely.



vellocet said:


> So what you are saying is that it wasn't my character that prevented me from cheating, its that she didn't do anything bad enough as I, as you might insinuate, did.


No it is not what I am saying at all. Apart from the fact that I made no observations about your character vs your ex's character, I would never suggest that this is the only factor. I think you said that you both faced the same pressures in marriage. I would not just assume that.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

russell28 said:


> Often these hit-and-run posters start the most interesting conversations, usually about this same exact topic, and it usually gives the vibe that they are considering cheating and needing to justify it.. so they want others to back them up, not contradictory information. They aren't looking for truth, they are looking for a green light to sneak and lie.


And low and behold the OP has left the building.

Wasn't getting the "GO FOR IT" they were looking for I imagine...

It makes me wonder if it's possible to maintain a perpetual middle ground with infidelity.

Is the following statement true ?

_You are either a cheater, or you are adamantly against infidelity, there is no middle ground.
_

Is it possible to NOT cheat, but at the same time to be warm to cheaters and sympathetic as well?

My thinking is if that's you stance, you are an affair waiting to happen.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Too many people, both BS's and WS's, are far too wrapped up in themselves to realize what they need to do to make their marriage work after infidelity.

If the BS refuses to acknowledge that they contributed to the state of the marriage (whatever that might have been before the cheating happened), true R will never happen.

If the WS refuses to acknowledge that they were 100% responsible for their choice to cheat, true R will never happen.

If the WS refuses to acknowledge that they contributed to the state of the marriage, true R will never happen.

They have to work on it TOGETHER. If they don't, all they can do is stay married. They'll never work through it effectively. R won't happen. It can't.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

If, as a spouse, I behave in a way that would motivate my spouse to consider cheating, then I should be concerned about two things:

1- My spouse divorcing me.

2- That I *chose* a spouse that would cheat instead.

For me, post her A, that concern list has changed to:

1 - Did I make the right decision in trusting her to not cheat again, no matter how I behave?

Now, I am not concerned about *her* divorcing me. Funny how that works.


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## bobbieb65 (Jan 24, 2013)

If one spouse cheats but they both share responsibility, 50/50 or whatever, then do they also share responsibility for the spouse who stayed faithful???

My H's infidelity was all on him, scattered over the first 20 years on varying degrees based on his selfishness and delusions of entitlement. 

Meanwhile, I kept things together and remained faithful which was 100% on me and 0% about him.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> That's a gross distortion of what I said


Not really. You stated, and I quote, again:



> Of course, sometimes (maybe often) the BS is essentially blameless, and has no motivating fault - *but may still lack some positive trait that could have lessened the attraction*


You said they may still lack some positive trait. Singular, not plural. So again, in other words, if all it takes is one little thing that isn't exactly perfect, then that could cause a spouse to cheat.

I get what you are saying, and at least you are one of the few that will admit that sometimes the BS didn't do anything wrong to cause cheating.

But what you said makes my point. Too many BS's after the fact probably feel like they have to walk on eggshells just to keep a cheating spouse from cheating again.



> , but if you see everything as black/white, then you'll never understand what I'm saying.
> 
> Given your own experience being cheated on, and the likelihood that you had no faults that motivated her, you may be bitter - to the point where you say you'll remain single forever - and so unwilling to see the shades of gray.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you in an "open marriage"? Therefore its obvious why you see shades of gray.

But when it comes to being cheated on, its NOT the BS's fault. THAT IS black and white. There are no shades of gray about it.

Now if a BS wants to improve his or herself for their own sake, fine. But it shouldn't be because they were emotionally extorted to do so by or for their WS.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Wazza said:


> No it is not what I am saying at all. Apart from the fact that I made no observations about your character vs your ex's character, I would never suggest that this is the only factor.


I know you didn't make any observations of my character. I had said before that is the difference between someone that does cheat and someone that doesn't. 

I had said that the problems that may have existed for her in the marriage existed for me also, but I didn't cheat.

To which you said that the problems may not have been the same. In other words, if the problems that led her to cheat were also applied to me, that I could have found myself in the same cheater's boat. It wouldn't. It doesn't matter what the problem is. Hell, if anything, as the main initiator of affection, I was a sexually neglected husband. And being sexually neglected seems to be the #1 reason of the cheater apologists as a "cause".




> I think you said that you both faced the same pressures in marriage. I would not just assume that.


You wouldn't. I would. If anything, based on what too many cheater defenders here say, I would have had a helluva lot more reason to cheat than did my wife.

So no, we didn't face the same pressures. I faced more, based on what a lot here would say, yet I didn't cheat.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

My ex wife blamed me for her cheating. I'm not sure if she blames me for her cheating on the five or six guys she has cheated on since she dumped me, or not.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I feel that you still don't quite understand my point, vellocet, but it's probably not worth pursuing much further. I certainly don't think the BS should walk on eggshells - if anything, they should "man up", perhaps because they didn't exhibit that trait well enough before.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*With very rare exception, the first time that a WS successfully cheats, just builds up their confidence level and seems to make all of their other ensuing opportunities at it just all that much easier to perform!

After all, there's truly no substitute for experience! And if for some reason you can't buy into that, then please feel free to ask my rich, skanky XW!*


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> I feel that you still don't quite understand my point, vellocet, but it's probably not worth pursuing much further. I certainly don't think the BS should walk on eggshells - if anything, they should "man up", perhaps because they didn't exhibit that trait well enough before.


Ok, so lets assume that a BS should "man up" and change one little aspect that you believe pushed their WS to cheat.

So the BS now has corrected that ONE problem, which shouldn't even really have been a problem in the first place, but lets just say they "man up".

What now do you think the WS has to change, other than not cheating anymore?


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> With very rare exception, the first time that a WS cheats just builds up their confidence level and seems to make all of their other ensuing opportunities at it just all that much easier to perform!


I've also seen the WS re-write history after the fact to justify their actions.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

MaritimeGuy said:


> I've also seen the WS re-write history after the fact to justify their actions.


*Verily! If there's absolutely one thing that a WS hates more than anything in the world is to be literally caught in a compromising position with their pants pulled way down around their ankles! 

More especially by either their gullible BS or their totally clueless family members or friends!
*


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

vellocet said:


> I know you didn't make any observations of my character. I had said before that is the difference between someone that does cheat and someone that doesn't.
> 
> I had said that the problems that may have existed for her in the marriage existed for me also, but I didn't cheat.
> 
> ...


So much truth to this. 

Again this points out that when a spouse is caught cheating, and they say that it's because they had needs that weren't being met.. how about the betrayed spouse, that has been in a less than honest relationship and is being manipulated and deceived are they getting needs met? My wife had an affair behind my back for years, deprived me of affection and security. She made me feel like I was going insane, and she was on top of the world because she had a boyfriend and was getting all sorts of love, a lover and a husband trying to find ways to make her happy. Meanwhile, I was so lonely and confused, yet I managed to not seek out a companion of the opposite sex to confide in. Was I tempted to? No, I didn't want love from another, I wanted love from my wife.

The cheater has been giving stuff to another person that they are withholding from the spouse, and they want to talk about needs not being met?

I'm sure now that cheating is something I'd never do, because all the times I've been tested, I chicken out. I'm afraid to cheat because I'm too beta. I worry that I'll destroy my good life I've built. I worry about STDs.. I worry about the person I'd cheat with telling my wife. I worry that it would break my wifes heart and hurt my family if anyone found out. I worry that I won't be able to live with myself. I worry about the persons spouse or boyfriend.. I wonder about the motives of the person that would sleep with me knowing I'm married, I find that unattractive. I feel insulted that someone would think I would go there. I feel insulted for my wife that someone would disrespect her, as flattered as I am. I always had regrets about not sleeping with those women when I had the chance, just because of the curiosity factor, but then I remember how good it felt having my wives back. How empowering it was to turn them down and keep my marriage safe. I felt good about myself, and my choice and could keep my head high and not be ashamed of myself or feel any guilt. I'm a very difficult person to cross boundaries with, I tend to shut it down hard. I do that for me, so I can live with myself. It's not that I don't enjoy sex or that I don't want to hop on any female with a pulse. I just can control my urges and desires and can tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

I actually cared about my marriage. At the point where my wife cheated, she no longer cared for the marriage as it was, it was boring and she needed a thrill. She had already checked out, I was fighting for her to return, but I had no idea I was up against alpha- janitor man that had my wives ear every day in work, for hours.. 

Did I want to bang the little 19 year old tatto'd up blonde that offered herself up, of course I did.. Did I want to go back to the lady in works apartment when she asked, yes, I really did.. Did I want to bang the girl from high school that offered? We were alone together.. No, I felt stupid for putting myself in a situation where I could be hit on.. even though my wife knew where I was, she didn't know this girl decided she wanted to get down my pants. I wanted to turn her into a pretzel, but I didn't do it, because I knew it wouldn't be right. After finding out my wife had been cheating on me, imagine how stupid I felt for not sneaking off with each and every one any chance I got. I didn't realize we were playing by different rules. The whole time I was avoiding flirting with ladies, she was making 'friends' with guys at work.

I do think many people have fantasies about other people, one can imagine cheating and still not be a cheater. They can desire other people, and not act on those impulses. They can find attraction but know that it's just that, attraction. They choose not to cheat because marriage is important to them, and they value the bond and the trust they think they share with the partner too much to break it even for some desirable hard body.. They want to grow old together and are proud of how far they've come together. They don't want to throw away a lifetime of love and memories for a cheap thrill, even if it's just the initial cheap thrill of flirting that they are aware is a slippery slope.

That's the best I can do at explaining how I'm wired and how I've managed to avoid cheating, in spite of years of my needs not being met, me thinking my wife didn't love me anymore, and a whole list of other justifications cheaters use to explain why they chose to sneak and lie to get some strange.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Ok, so lets assume that a BS should "man up" and change one little aspect that you believe pushed their WS to cheat.
> 
> So the BS now has corrected that ONE problem, which shouldn't even really have been a problem in the first place, but lets just say they "man up".
> 
> What now do you think the WS has to change, other than not cheating anymore?


Did the BS really fix the problem by reading a book about how to be a tough guy.. Once you read a book on how to be an alpha, you already forfeited your alpha status, because alphas don't read books, they burn them and use the fire to light cigars.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

vellocet said:


> What now do you think the WS has to change, other than not cheating anymore?


I've already said. It seems you have another answer, so please share it!


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> I've already said. It seems you have another answer, so please share it!


No, you didn't. The only thing that even came remotely close is a vague suggestion that the WS go to IC. And everything else you suggested isn't about the WS changing anything about themselves. It was all about getting the BS to change.

Here is what you said:



> There's still a lot to correct in the WS. They could have tried raising and dealing with the issues with the BS before cheating.


This is about getting the BS to change, not the WS changing.



> They could have asked for MC if professional help is needed for the issues at hand.


This is about getting the BS to change, not the WS changing because the WS is unhappy with the marriage. Now there could be things during the MC session that can come up as what the WS can change, but what would those things be?




> They could have filed for separation or divorce to get the spouse's attention.


This is about getting the BS to change, not the WS changing.




> They could try IC or other means to work on themselves to develop better boundaries and coping skills.


This is the only thing remotely close to the WS changing. But developing better boundaries? Why does it take IC to know that cheating is wrong?
Coping skills? This is a change that says, "I need to cope better because my BS is driving me to not cope better"




> And certainly after an affair, they need to do many of these things and provide transparency so that they can't revert


Transparency isn't a change for the WS, its what is to be expected. 

I'm talking about what behaviors that contributed to a bad marriage by the WS should they change?

If a BS has to change their behavior or a "trait" of theirs to appease the WS, then what in the WS needs to change other than not cheating?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I'll try again, then. Do note that the thread topic is about the BS possibly having some responsibility for motivating infidelity, not what the WS needs to do to "fix" things. Assuming an attempt at reconciliation, the WS has to recommit to the marriage, has to make the choice that it is worth preserving, that their spouse is deserving of their fidelity and devotion, and show that in appropriate ways. Demonstrating remorse is key - that their cheating was wrong and they are sincerely sorry for hurting their spouse. They also need to stop behaviors that may have led to opportunities to cheat, and provide access to all media they can use to open new or maintain old contacts that should not continue, and answer questions the BS wants answered - transparency.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Married but Happy said:


> There's still a lot to correct in the WS. They could have tried raising and dealing with the issues with the BS before cheating. They could have asked for MC if professional help is needed for the issues at hand. They could have filed for separation or divorce to get the spouse's attention. They could try IC or other means to work on themselves to develop better boundaries and coping skills. And certainly after an affair, they need to do many of these things and provide transparency so that they can't revert - if the couple is going to try reconciliation.
> 
> If the BS has faults that provided the motivation (not an excuse) to seek solace (or whatever) elsewhere, those faults need to be addressed so that the motivation is eliminated, otherwise nothing much has changed except increased paranoia and dissatisfaction without hope of real improvement. Of course, sometimes (maybe often) the BS is essentially blameless, and has no motivating _fault_ - but may still lack some _positive _trait that could have lessened the attraction.


I refuse to agree that a BS provides 'motivation' for the WS to cheat. I also refuse to agree that a BS should have to actively be 'positive' to keep their partner from cheating.

The BS very well may provide motivation for the WS to be dissatisfied with the marriage. The BS very well may have not been as positive as they could have been to keep the marriage as good as it could be. But there is NO WAY that you will ever convince me that marital dissatisfaction is a reason to cheat. Because that's essentially what you're saying.

What I don't think you are differentiating is the marriage from the cheating. Show me a perfect marriage. There is no such thing. Every relationship has struggles. Saying that whatever the BS did led to the WS cheating is, like I said before, the same as telling a rape victim that what they wore made them get raped.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> I'll try again, then. Do note that the thread topic is about the BS possibly having some responsibility for motivating infidelity, not what the WS needs to do to "fix" things.


By that very same statement it isn't about the BS fixing things either, but that didn't stop people from saying that the BS needs to recognize those things so they can fix things.

Sorry, it isn't one sided. If people are going to suggest what the BS fix, then it stands to reason the questions will be asked about the WS's responsibilities in it all as well.




> Assuming an attempt at reconciliation, the WS has to recommit to the marriage, has to make the choice that it is worth preserving, that their spouse is deserving of their fidelity and devotion, and show that in appropriate ways. Demonstrating remorse is key - that their cheating was wrong and they are sincerely sorry for hurting their spouse. *They also need to stop behaviors that may have led to opportunities to cheat*, and provide access to all media they can use to open new or maintain old contacts that should not continue, and answer questions the BS wants answered - transparency.


There you go. That's what I was wondering your take on it was. And that is exactly what I would expect, especially the bolded part. I would add that the WS needs to realize their BS isn't the only person in the marriage that made it bad, or less than what the WS expected it to be, and that it takes two to make a good marriage.

Thank you for the answer.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Seven years ago this month was my D-Day of my wife's long term EA. Shortly after that we had a discussion on the condition of the marriage. My wife handed me a hand written list of why I had been such a ****ty husband. Some of it valid, some of it BS, some of it rewriting marital history. There were also the general statements the betrayed spouse often hears. "Your weren't here for me, he was." "You've brought this on yourself." "It's too bad it's had to come down to this." Initially I bought it all, hook, line and sinker. I bore the full brunt of the marital woes, putting her on the pedestal and myself as a complete failure as a husband and father. I emotionally collapsed under the weight of it all.

With time and self reflection, I realized that I was not responsible for her choices and that I only had control of my own actions. But I did confront my own culpability in the destruction of a once happy marriage. I accepted the fact that my actions made my wife and my marriage vulnerable to outside forces. I whittled the list down to the what I felt were the three major and valid issues. My issues with anger management, passive aggressive tendencies and a general lack of empathy. As I followed the Love Must be Tough plan, these were my focus points for being a better man, husband and father. I knew if my wife and I were lucky enough to reconcile, if I didn't improve in these areas, the marriage would be doomed to cycle into another unhappy period. And if we didn't, at least I would be a better person to move forward in life and find someone new.

Respecting the needs of the marriage, both hers and mine, allowed us to rebuild respect, empathy and trust. It allowed us to both be happier in our relationship and propel us forward to a successful reconciliation. Learning from the errors we both made in the past, pre-EA, have kept us in a good place. While not impervious to outside forces, we are stronger as a couple from seeing what almost happened to us.

Do I feel responsible for her affair? No. I just came to better understand how it happened.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> I refuse to agree that a BS provides 'motivation' for the WS to cheat. I also refuse to agree that a BS should have to actively be 'positive' to keep their partner from cheating.
> 
> The BS very well may provide motivation for the WS to be dissatisfied with the marriage. The BS very well may have not been as positive as they could have been to keep the marriage as good as it could be. But there is NO WAY that you will ever convince me that marital dissatisfaction is a reason to cheat. Because that's essentially what you're saying.
> 
> What I don't think you are differentiating is the marriage from the cheating. Show me a perfect marriage. There is no such thing. Every relationship has struggles. Saying that whatever the BS did led to the WS cheating is, like I said before, the same as telling a rape victim that what they wore made them get raped.


Exactly, and if cheating is the result of something the other spouse did or didn't do, then hell, I'd have screwed more women than Wilt Chamberlain.

Again, the difference between someone that cheats and someone who doesn't when things aren't exactly to their liking, or otherwise, is character.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Amplexor said:


> Seven years ago this month was my D-Day of my wife's long term EA. Shortly after that we had a discussion on the condition of the marriage. My wife handed me a hand written list of why I had been such a ****ty husband. Some of it valid, some of it BS, some of it rewriting marital history. *There were also the general statements the betrayed spouse often hears. "Your weren't here for me, he was." "You've brought this on yourself." "It's too bad it's had to come down to this."* Initially I bought it all, hook, line and sinker. I bore the full brunt of the marital woes, putting her on the pedestal and myself as a complete failure as a husband and father. I emotionally collapsed under the weight of it all.
> 
> With time and self reflection, I realized that I was not responsible for her choices and that I only had control of my own actions. But I did confront my own culpability in the destruction of a once happy marriage. I accepted the fact that my actions made my wife and my marriage vulnerable to outside forces. I whittled the list down to the what I felt were the three major and valid issues. My issues with anger management, passive aggressive tendencies and a general lack of empathy. As I followed the Love Must be Tough plan, these were my focus points for being a better man, husband and father. I knew if my wife and I were lucky enough to reconcile, if I didn't improve in these areas, the marriage would be doomed to cycle into another unhappy period. And if we didn't, at least I would be a better person to move forward in life and find someone new.
> 
> ...


Amp, question. To me, to reconcile she would have had to completely change her attitude and realized that the things in bold were complete bull and apologized for blaming you. Did she?


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Spouse cheats, says it's your fault because you drink.. Can't you just say I drink because of you? Now your drinking problem is their fault. Problem solved. You drove them to drink.. Now nobody has to take responsibility for their own choices and actions, it's all fixed. I should be a therapist.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Amplexor said:


> There were also the general statements the betrayed spouse often hears. "Your weren't here for me, he was." "You've brought this on yourself." "It's too bad it's had to come down to this."





vellocet said:


> Amp, question. To me, to reconcile she would have had to completely change her attitude and realized that the things in bold were complete bull and apologized for blaming you. Did she?



The statements were complete fog-speak and many of us that have heard it understand that. I didn't at the time. 

Yes she eventually recognized it for what it was, accepted it, felt remorse and guilt and was apologetic for her part in the meltdown.

The two of us ****ed up the marriage, the two of us had to fix it.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Amplexor said:


> Seven years ago this month was my D-Day of my wife's long term EA. Shortly after that we had a discussion on the condition of the marriage. My wife handed me a hand written list of why I had been such a ****ty husband. Some of it valid, some of it BS, some of it rewriting marital history. There were also the general statements the betrayed spouse often hears. *"Your weren't here for me, he was." * "You've brought this on yourself." "It's too bad it's had to come down to this." Initially I bought it all, hook, line and sinker. I bore the full brunt of the marital woes, putting her on the pedestal and myself as a complete failure as a husband and father. I emotionally collapsed under the weight of it all.
> 
> With time and self reflection, I realized that I was not responsible for her choices and that I only had control of my own actions. But I did confront my own culpability in the destruction of a once happy marriage. I accepted the fact that my actions made my wife and my marriage vulnerable to outside forces. I whittled the list down to the what I felt were the three major and valid issues. My issues with anger management, passive aggressive tendencies and a general lack of empathy. As I followed the Love Must be Tough plan, these were my focus points for being a better man, husband and father. I knew if my wife and I were lucky enough to reconcile, if I didn't improve in these areas, the marriage would be doomed to cycle into another unhappy period. And if we didn't, at least I would be a better person to move forward in life and find someone new.
> 
> ...


When I got that one, the 'weren't here for me'.. I laughed, and said "when you got operated on, was he there? Birth of our kids, was he there? Did he play with them, take them to games and dance class? Did he marry you, buy you a house, give you everything you said you wanted? Etc.. that one pissed me off.. I also added in, 'he was there when you needed what, to sneak off to a motel room? I offered that, you laughed it off and said something about not having money for that'... 
"Yea, he was there for you.. for all those times you needed to trade sex for kind words.. he was there."

I do admit I had passive aggressive issues and stuff like that, but as pointed out.. both parties can have issues that need to be worked on. I was jealous, yes, but my wife had a tendency to be too flirty and not understand boundaries.. thinking it's okay for a guy at work to give a backrub for example. Now she understands the concept of the slippery slope because it tore apart her nice life and now we have to deal with much bigger issues than 'not being there'. 

My wife later admitted that she over blew the not being there thing in her mind to justify the cheating along with most of the list items you mention. I wasn't quite the monster she made me into in order to cheat on me.. I was still the same guy, just a bit more confused and unable to work on things because we were lacking the honest communication part. She was building resentments, and I was thinking I was working on things.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Exactly, and if cheating is the result of something the other spouse did or didn't do, then hell, I'd have screwed more women than Wilt Chamberlain.
> 
> Again, the difference between someone that cheats and someone who doesn't when things aren't exactly to their liking, or otherwise, is character.


There are degrees of character. What I see in all your arguments is, by my standards, black and white thinking. You seem to want to see character as good or bad. I see rather people with strengths and weaknesses. How those strength and weaknesses interact in difference circumstances determines behaviour.

I tried earlier to differentiate between identifying causes if an affair vs determining who is to blame. Does that difference make any sense to you?


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

russell28 said:


> So much truth to this.
> 
> Again this points out that when a spouse is caught cheating, and they say that it's because they had needs that weren't being met.. how about the betrayed spouse, that has been in a less than honest relationship and is being manipulated and deceived are they getting needs met? My wife had an affair behind my back for years, deprived me of affection and security. She made me feel like I was going insane, and she was on top of the world because she had a boyfriend and was getting all sorts of love, a lover and a husband trying to find ways to make her happy. Meanwhile, I was so lonely and confused, yet I managed to not seek out a companion of the opposite sex to confide in. Was I tempted to? No, I didn't want love from another, I wanted love from my wife.
> 
> ...


Interesting that no two people can be the same - but on this topic we are 101% the same


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Wazza said:


> There are degrees of character. What I see in all your arguments is, by my standards, black and white thinking.


When it comes to cheating, you bet.

When it comes to working on a relationship and communication, no.




> You seem to want to see character as good or bad.


No, I see that the content of someone's character is the deciding force in whether to cheat. Because if you have someone that would cheat under a certain set of circumstances, and someone that will not cheat under the exact same circumstances, then character is what it boils down to.




> I tried earlier to differentiate between identifying causes if an affair vs determining who is to blame. Does that difference make any sense to you?


No, because to me there is a fine line between the two. To me, when someone says, with disclaimers, "I'm not blaming you, your spouse's infidelity is 100% on them, but your behavior pushed them to make that decision." To me that's blaming no matter what disclaimer is put up there. NOTE: the quoted is an example, not quoting anyone in particular.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

russell28 said:


> ....... She was building resentments, and I was thinking I was working on things.


this was about the most destructive thing in our downfall - resentment - especially the BACKDATED kind !

When I look at this aspect now I know, in retrospect, she intended cheating intended looking for something else 

When om no1 started up I started getting "you made me get a part time job 8 years ago" !!!

I would examine this perplexed. I even started agreeing with her! I had put things into place in order to make her get a job for some reason I could not quite work out. I actually believed it. When she was back to me out of the fog we'd discuss this and she'd admit it was rubbish but she looked at that event and saw it to be different to how it actually was. Three om later over the next 6 years it became "you made me get a part time job 15 years ago" !!! She even kept using it as her main excuse even after dismissing it time and time again in between affairs! 

By the end she actually believed it and I of course by then knew this was just a crock of sh!t excuse for whatever she wanted this month or the next

Resentment is like the nurturing of a plan, once it's in place there will be a consequence and it will be bad. They just need to find something to be resentful about and bingo! they wait to use it at the right time


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

I was depressed and grieving, refused to go to therapy countless times. In addition we were both unhappy. I chose dealing with all of it by doing nothing. WS chose cheating. I could have chosen alcohol,he could have chosen workaholism, etc etc. We both could have chosen to work on the issues. The unhappy marital situation is on both of us, refusing to deal with my depression is on me and only me. The same goes for WS and his affair. I'm no more responsible for his actions than he is for my inaction. We're both adults and at some point you have to take responsibility for your own s*it but I am never taking any blame for his affair nor would I ever blame him for my situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Feeling-Lonely (Nov 13, 2013)

I haven't left the building, I have a job and house remodel projects and everyday life, don't have time to post. 

This is interesting, although I haven't had time to read all of this. Most people who took this personally are people who have been hurt by cheaters. 

I am married and have no intention to cheat on my husband, I am not morally compromised because my father cheated on my mother, or should I say on my biological parent, because she hasn't done a lot to be called a mother. 

I think it is very narrow minded to put everyone in one category based on one aspect that they have in common. I can't believe this, my father cheated, yes, but he also took care of the family. That is not enough to give him a break about cheating? It is unreasonable. 

Yes, cheating is wrong, I agree, split up or deal with your problems, knowing this people still make the mistake of cheating, why? I said human error, people don't act based on two columns: a) right b) wrong

Life is so much more complicated with emotions and situations, people make mistakes and I think a judgment from a side is not the best approach, every situation is different and complex. 

My dad and my step-mom are awesome people, I am happy to have them as my parents, I can just hope to be such a good parent to my kids.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

vellocet said:


> No, I see that the content of someone's character is the deciding force in whether to cheat. Because if you have someone that would cheat under a certain set of circumstances, and someone that will not cheat under the exact same circumstances, then character is what it boils down to.


Do you cook? A cake has many ingredients...flour, eggs, butter, whatever. You alter any of them and the result changes.

A marriage is the same. Character is an input. Circumstances are another. I'm not saying it doesn't matter, I am saying everyone has a breaking point. A good marriage partner is one whose breaking point is higher.



vellocet said:


> No, because to me there is a fine line between the two. To me, when someone says, with disclaimers, "I'm not blaming you, your spouse's infidelity is 100% on them, but your behavior pushed them to make that decision." To me that's blaming no matter what disclaimer is put up there. NOTE: the quoted is an example, not quoting anyone in particular.


OK, then, why are you not to blame? If you want the two words to be the same, were you a perfect husband? And if not, don't you have some blame for the failure of the marriage?

I doubt you were perfect, but I also don't think your limitations excuse the cheating. They may help explain how your ex got to the point where she cheated. That doesn't mean I blame you, but it does mean that, had you done different things (i.e. changed the recipe in our earlier analogy by changing the circumstances) you might have got a different result.

And this is before we get into complicating factors. What about someone who tries to make a bad marriage work for their kids sake, or because they don't believe in divorce, and fail along the way. Are they really worse than someone who takes a vow, then at the first sign of temptation for someone else, walks out of the marriage?

I've been cheated on, and I know the sort of pain that drives your current views. But I was happier once I found ways to move beyond it. That is why I am posting in this thread, to add that thought to the discussion.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Feeling-Lonely said:


> I haven't left the building, I have a job and house remodel projects and everyday life, don't have time to post.
> 
> This is interesting, although I haven't had time to read all of this. Most people who took this personally are people who have been hurt by cheaters.
> 
> ...


Feeling, it is clear that you are a good hearted person. It is equally clear that you have never been the victim of a betrayal as enormous as infidelity. Otherwise you would not have said this:

_my father cheated, yes, but he also took care of the family. That is not enough to give him a break about cheating? It is unreasonable. _

You would also not have used the phrase "mistake of cheating." 2 + 2 = 5 is a mistake. Infidelity is life-crushing.


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## lisab0105 (Oct 26, 2011)

Okay, first of all...cut it out with the humans make mistakes bullsh*t when it comes to cheating. 

For real, it reeks of excuses and is a cop out. 

Cheating has NEVER and will NEVER be a human mistake. Every time I read that nonsense, I want to punch my computer. 

I don't care what your mother did, what I did, what the last 20 posters did...none of us deserved nor brought on our partner going behind our back and screwing someone else. We didn't deserve the mind-movies, the feelings of worthlessness, nor the self-image issues that we saw (and for some of us _still see_) when we looked in the mirror after we found out. 

Your father and step-mom may be awesome parents, but your step-mom screwed YOUR MOTHERS HUSBAND. I would never call the woman that inserted herself in my mothers family, a parent, much less a step-parent. I am full of forgiveness...but not that much. 

*You are a human being because someone or something thought your soul was strong enough to handle "free will"...use it wisely.*


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## Laurel (Oct 14, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Ok, for all those who are coming to the defense of the WS's, and yes, that is what you are doing despite the disclaimers, lets ask this of you.
> 
> Lets say the BS also thinks they are partly responsible for their WS's cheating. And lets say the BS stays in the marriage and busts their hump to correct all the little things that they, or their WS perceived, as their reasons for cheating.
> 
> ...


I don't believe I deserved to be cheated on. Nobody deserves that. That was was a very wrong choice my H made all on his own. 

But I am able to recognize what I did to contribute to the disintegrated state of my marriage. I was far from a perfect wife. As painful as it is, I understand my H's mindset as he descended down the path of infidelity. I'm not excusing it or defending him, or saying that he was justified. All I am saying is that I understand how the conditions were ripe for it to happen. And I understand how he justified it to himself - even though he was very wrong to do so. And because of all of this, I ultimately made the decision to R.

We were having problems for a couple of years - caused by both of us. I didn't take his concerns seriously when he tried to bring them up to me. He felt dismissed and taken for granted. I felt resentful and taken for granted as well. I dealt with it by putting my head in the sand and doing nothing, telling myself that somehow it would magically get better. He dealt with it by cheating. 

When D-day hit, suddenly all the issues we had been avoiding for years came to a head. We either had to fix our issues once and for all or go our separate ways. 

We committed to R - and giving each other 100%. So yes, that means I am "busting my hump" to be a good wife. But it also means he is doing everything in his power to be a good husband, as well as dealing with the heavy lifting of the fallout of his affair. He has to do much more than just "not cheat anymore." He has frankly amazed me by how much he has changed and how hard he has worked to repair this marriage. 

I suppose I could have taken him back and made him grovel for the rest of his life because he cheated and I didn't. I could have just stayed set in my ways and done nothing to improve myself because I was the victim of his cheating. But that's not the kind of life I want to lead. I want to have a happy, fulfilled life. That means we both have to strive to be better for each other. 

If we fail now, we can't say that we didn't try everything in our power to stay together. We are closer now than probably we have ever been, including in the beginning "honeymoon" phase of our relationship. Our old marriage is dead - we now have a new marriage with new rules, new boundaries and a new way of doing things. And we are both very connected and happy. Strange but true. 

I believe that there are some people that are hard-wired to cheat, and will have no remorse or guilt about it. And that they will cheat no matter what. But I also believe there are other people who will cheat due to certain circumstances. I believe my H is a good person at heart that made a very bad decision. Every situation is different. I just know that there are things I wish I had done differently from the beginning.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

lisab0105 said:


> Okay, first of all...cut it out with the humans make mistakes bullsh*t when it comes to cheating.
> 
> For real, it reeks of excuses and is a cop out.
> 
> ...


Bumped for truth, and F'in A!!!!!!


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Laurel said:


> I don't believe I deserved to be cheated on. Nobody deserves that. That was was a very wrong choice my H made all on his own.
> 
> But I am able to recognize what I did to contribute to the disintegrated state of my marriage. I was far from a perfect wife. As painful as it is, I understand my H's mindset as he descended down the path of infidelity. I'm not excusing it or defending him, or saying that he was justified. All I am saying is that I understand how the conditions were ripe for it to happen.


So are you then saying that if you had towed the line and been as perfect for him as you could have, the conditions would not have been ripe for an affair?




> When D-day hit, suddenly all the issues we had been avoiding for years came to a head. We either had to fix our issues once and for all or go our separate ways.


But what I'm hearing from some of the cheater apologists is that if the BS wasn't neglectful, abusive, etc, then the WS wouldn't have cheated.

That being the case, what issues does the WS have to fix if the BS pushed their WS into the arms of another/others? Because that's basically what a few here are saying. Even you are saying it in so many words, whether you want to believe it or not.




> We committed to R - and giving each other 100%. So yes, that means I am "busting my hump" to be a good wife. But it also means he is doing everything in his power to be a good husband, as well as dealing with the heavy lifting of the fallout of his affair.


Such as?




> He has to do much more than just "not cheat anymore." He has frankly amazed me by how much he has changed and how hard he has worked to repair this marriage.


So what is he doing other than not cheating anymore and being an open book (because the latter is simply to be expected as the bare minimum)


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

I guess here is what I would expect if I were to reconcile with a WS. Since a few here ARE basically blaming the BS and saying that if they weren't neglectful, abusive, whatever, that led to their WS's affair, they also infer that the BS needs to address their behavior for reconciliation. And I don't disagree.

If I were to reconcile, I would address my part of the problems in the marriage, while taking no responsibility for their cheating.

So what then, if I pushed my partner to cheat, is my cheating partner's responsibility in reconciliation.

To me, just being an open book isn't enough. No longer cheating is not enough. Like someone here said, they would also need to refrain, on their own and not demanded by me, from any activities that helped lead them to cheat in the first place.

I'll use my x-wife as an example. If I had stayed with her, then she, as someone who wants to work on the marriage, should never suggest or desire to go out partying with "the girls". Should I prohibit her from doing so? Absolutely not. I'm neither her daddy or her warden. But if she still desires to do such things, then she is showing me she has no true desire to respect me and the marriage. She is married and needs to act like it, and not like a college party girl. That means she should want to stay away from bars and clubs, at a minimum. And I am speaking from my past situation since some cheaters may not have engaged in partying.

Another aspect. If she had cheated with someone from her place of work, then she needs to start looking for other work and never stop looking until she finds something, or if somehow the AP quits.

Again, this shouldn't be brought down by ultimatum, because for true R, the WS should WANT to do these things on their own.
If I had cheated on someone and desperately didn't want to lose them, then you better bet my ass comes home after work and doesn't go partying with the guys. If I have proven myself as a cheater, then those days would be over IF I want to keep the person I cheated on.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

russell28 said:


> Did the BS really fix the problem by reading a book about how to be a tough guy.. Once you read a book on how to be an alpha, you already forfeited your alpha status, because alphas don't read books, they burn them and use the fire to light cigars.


:rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Happyfamily (Apr 15, 2014)

You can certainly be responsible for the breakdown of the marriage.

It might play out in a number of ways. He might divorce you. He might make you into a show on Investigation Discovery. He might commit suicide. He might have an affair. He might stay with you until the day he dies with both of you miserable. Or he may even get you into counseling and fix whatever is wrong. 

Regardless of what stupid decision he makes, if you can't recognize your responsibility for the breakdown of the marriage then the person copping out and making excuses is you. 

So now of course roll out the straw man and pretend I said that affairs are justified, which I did not say.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Amplexor said:


> Seven years ago this month was my D-Day of my wife's long term EA. Shortly after that we had a discussion on the condition of the marriage. My wife handed me a hand written list of why I had been such a ****ty husband. Some of it valid, some of it BS, some of it rewriting marital history. There were also the general statements the betrayed spouse often hears. "Your weren't here for me, he was." "You've brought this on yourself." "It's too bad it's had to come down to this." Initially I bought it all, hook, line and sinker. I bore the full brunt of the marital woes, putting her on the pedestal and myself as a complete failure as a husband and father. I emotionally collapsed under the weight of it all.
> 
> With time and self reflection, I realized that I was not responsible for her choices and that I only had control of my own actions. But I did confront my own culpability in the destruction of a once happy marriage. I accepted the fact that my actions made my wife and my marriage vulnerable to outside forces. I whittled the list down to the what I felt were the three major and valid issues. My issues with anger management, passive aggressive tendencies and a general lack of empathy. As I followed the Love Must be Tough plan, these were my focus points for being a better man, husband and father. I knew if my wife and I were lucky enough to reconcile, if I didn't improve in these areas, the marriage would be doomed to cycle into another unhappy period. And if we didn't, at least I would be a better person to move forward in life and find someone new.
> 
> ...


This ought to be made a sticky somewhere. I've seen the same basic idea posted here before, often in the form: "The cheater is responsible for the affair, but if there is to be reconciliation, BOTH have to fix the things that are wrong.

As a relative newcomer I've noticed that the mantra "the cheater is the only one responsible for the cheating" often is interpreted to mean that the betrayed spouse has no responsibility for the breakdown of the marriage. I believe that's wrong.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

TryingToRecover said:


> I was depressed and grieving, refused to go to therapy countless times. In addition we were both unhappy. I chose dealing with all of it by doing nothing. WS chose cheating. I could have chosen alcohol,he could have chosen workaholism, etc etc. We both could have chosen to work on the issues. The unhappy marital situation is on both of us, refusing to deal with my depression is on me and only me. The same goes for WS and his affair. I'm no more responsible for his actions than he is for my inaction. We're both adults and at some point you have to take responsibility for your own s*it but I am never taking any blame for his affair nor would I ever blame him for my situation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Would you accept the blame for refusing to deal with your depression?


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Laurel said:


> I don't believe I deserved to be cheated on. Nobody deserves that. That was was a very wrong choice my H made all on his own.
> 
> But I am able to recognize what I did to contribute to the disintegrated state of my marriage. I was far from a perfect wife. As painful as it is, I understand my H's mindset as he descended down the path of infidelity. I'm not excusing it or defending him, or saying that he was justified. All I am saying is that I understand how the conditions were ripe for it to happen. And I understand how he justified it to himself - even though he was very wrong to do so. And because of all of this, I ultimately made the decision to R.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I think that you are very brave because you may be blasted for posting this. But I think that you are totally right.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

vellocet said:


> So are you then saying that if you had towed the line and been as perfect for him as you could have, the conditions would not have been ripe for an affair?


Sometimes. Yes. 



vellocet said:


> But what I'm hearing from some of the cheater apologists is that if the BS wasn't neglectful, abusive, etc, then the WS wouldn't have cheated.


Again sometimes but the wording is extreme, and it's not that simple. Sometimes I have no doubt it made the difference. Other times, who knows?

The times when I have felt the greatest temptation to cheat have been the times when my needs were least being met. The fact that one doesn't give in and cheat doesn't mean you can't understand how others feel the temptation.

I don't really like it because, like you, I have been cheated on. Like Lisa I have endured the mind movies, esteem issues, etc. And you never totally get over that. (Well I haven't yet anyway).

Thing is, if you are going have future relationships, you can either just hope it doesn't happen again, and try and figure out what led to the cheating so you can make it less likely. I don't see that as being an apologist for cheaters.


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## Laurel (Oct 14, 2013)

vellocet said:


> So are you then saying that if you had towed the line and been as perfect for him as you could have, the conditions would not have been ripe for an affair?


It's not about being "perfect." He didn't cheat because I didn't cook his steak right or my housekeeping wasn't up to snuff. The fact is, we had significant issues in our marriage prior to his affair, which were caused by BOTH of us. Not just me and not just him. We had gotten into a bad place and neither of us was willing to make the first step to try and fix it. I wish I had made more of an effort back then. If we had been working as hard on our relationship back then as we are now, I don't believe the affair would have ever happened. If I had taken him seriously when he tried to talk to me about how unhappy he was (which he did before he ever had an affair) maybe things could have been different. I am not saying he was justified in having an affair. What I am saying is that I regret not doing more to improve our relationship before his affair ever happened. Because as painful as it is, the poor state of our marriage contributed to his bad choices. 



vellocet said:


> But what I'm hearing from some of the cheater apologists is that if the BS wasn't neglectful, abusive, etc, then the WS wouldn't have cheated.
> 
> That being the case, what issues does the WS have to fix if the BS pushed their WS into the arms of another/others? Because that's basically what a few here are saying. Even you are saying it in so many words, whether you want to believe it or not.


So now I am a "cheater apologist" because I have the nerve to acknowledge my own responsibility in the disintegrated state of my marriage? :scratchhead: That is so far off it is simply laughable. 

In any event, I was simply answering the question presented in this thread from my own point of view and feelings on the subject and how it relates to myself and my marriage ONLY. I never said any other BS should feel the way I do. I certainly never said cheating is ok. 

I actually hesitated posting on this thread to begin with because I knew it was likely my words would be twisted into something they were not. But I went ahead and posted anyway just in case someone out there reading had the same feelings and could identify in some way. 

You clearly don't believe in reconciliation. And there is nothing wrong with that. Getting divorced was the right choice for you and your situation. Not everyone can recover from infidelity. And of course not all cheaters deserve a second chance. 

But reconciliation was the right choice for me. And that means my H and I BOTH need to work on improving ourselves and being better for each other. Yes, he committed the ultimate sin by cheating. But I have chosen to give him a second chance, and making our "new" marriage work is something we are both responsible for. 



vellocet said:


> So what is he doing other than not cheating anymore and being an open book (because the latter is simply to be expected as the bare minimum)


Being supportive and patient. Answering any questions I have, even if he's already answered them 100 times before. Stopped going out to bars with his buddies. Ditched his relationships with people who were not "friends of the marriage." Takes an interest in things I like. Plans regular date nights. Helps out around the house without being asked. Calls and texts very frequently when he's not around. The phone that used to be attached to his hip and password-protected is now unlocked and left in another room if we are at home or in the car if we are out (so his full attention is on us). He thanks me for giving him a second chance. And many other things. He has done everything I have asked and then some.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

I am wondering where the OP is going with all these posts.. I've looked back at the post she has created and just makes me wonder..

I just wouldn't wander into a forum or a website based around substance abuse and start asking all sorted questions about drugs and the issues behind it.

But I will answer your post regardless as well. It probably was said on page 1 or 2. 

Sometimes people get into a hole they just can't get out.. 

For anyone who knows my story, they would tell you I won the divorce game.. I only hope that in several months I would be 100x better off financially. A man just can't get better then me when it comes to divorce.. Unless they won lottery or ended up with a rich woman as their wife.. 

Nonetheless in many ways I am still a broken person and I have the support of many, many friends and coworkers. I have medical coverage that pays for my therapy sessions and I go as if it were religion.. 

So maybe your mom just didn't have the support your dad did of a loving woman by his side to stick by him through those rough times he was cheating on your mom.. 

Maybe if your mom had someone to love her, then maybe she would have been stronger.. I know I contemplated many of stupid ideas and notions when I was depressed going through the early stages of my divorce.. Matter of fact I think I could have saved myself 20k if I wasn't so sad. 

BTW what does your stepmom do for a living ?


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Laurel said:


> It's not about being "perfect." He didn't cheat because I didn't cook his steak right or my housekeeping wasn't up to snuff. The fact is, we had significant issues in our marriage prior to his affair, which were caused by BOTH of us. Not just me and not just him. We had gotten into a bad place and neither of us was willing to make the first step to try and fix it. I wish I had made more of an effort back then. If we had been working as hard on our relationship back then as we are now, I don't believe the affair would have ever happened. If I had taken him seriously when he tried to talk to me about how unhappy he was (which he did before he ever had an affair) maybe things could have been different. I am not saying he was justified in having an affair. What I am saying is that I regret not doing more to improve our relationship before his affair ever happened. Because as painful as it is, the poor state of our marriage contributed to his bad choices.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My wife is doing all the things your husband is doing. Don't beat yourself up too much about not acting when he told you he wasn't happy. He not only might have already been in an EA at that time, he probably didn't emphasize the extent of his unhappiness. Often it's just a preamble to an affair, so he can say he tried in his own mind. One to add to the list of justifications, "I tried to tell you our marriage was in trouble" but he left out the flirting in work or details about the new person that's filling that happiness void. If you knew it was to the point where he was going to abandon your relationship, you'd have probably known to take that first step. He took a step to 'fix' it without telling you. So while you both might not have been working on your relationship, you weren't getting the full story. I don't know if you were giving him the full story, but in relationships if both parties aren't being honest, then there is no hope. Your marriage is doing good now because you are communicating and being honest. It's too bad so many have to get caught cheating before they understand the value of trust in marriage.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

sidney2718 said:


> Would you accept the blame for refusing to deal with your depression?


Of course I do, and have. I can't very well speak of people owning their s*it if I don't own mine.


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## Hurtin_Still (Oct 3, 2011)

*Re: Re: Do you believe you are also responsible for your spouses infidelity?*



TryingToRecover said:


> Of course I do, and have. I can't very well speak of people owning their s*it if I don't own mine.


......it's correct ...and noble to own your faults and shortcomings ....and it helps the healing process if R is the direction that has been chosen.

.....in my case .....I had no idea what clinical depression was ....and that I had it. My wife told me that I was 'distant' for years and didn't see her own depressed condition (moody, periods of crying, feelings of isolation). Its not that I didn't see them ....I had NO idea how to deal with them ...or what they were .... while mired in my own hell.

....I have taken responsibility for the deteriorated 'condition' of the marriage ...then. But I've shaken off the concept of responsibility ...and blame for ....her actions of cheating.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Feeling-Lonely said:


> I haven't left the building, I have a job and house remodel projects and everyday life, don't have time to post.
> 
> This is interesting, although I haven't had time to read all of this. Most people who took this personally are people who have been hurt by cheaters.
> 
> ...


Your father took care of the family, and your mother wasn't nice, so it was okay that he cheated on her. You learned that cheating can work out great for everyone. You're already getting the 'life is complicated' and 'situations are complex' excuses ready.. "if you take care of your family, you get a break on cheating"

Are you sure you're not going to cheat when you get bored, or your husband doesn't meet your needs.. or your life gets complicated? You may have no intention of cheating on your husband, but I'd say everyone at some point has no intention of cheating.. until they build up enough resentments and justifications. You have a head start on the justifications.. You have an example in front of you, your dad in how it can all work out great in the end. I hope when you say you can be as good a parent to your kids, you leave out the cheating part.


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## lisab0105 (Oct 26, 2011)

russell28 said:


> Your father took care of the family, and your mother wasn't nice, so it was okay that he cheated on her. You learned that cheating can work out great for everyone. You're already getting the 'life is complicated' and 'situations are complex' excuses ready.. "if you take care of your family, you get a break on cheating"
> 
> Are you sure you're not going to cheat when you get bored, or your husband doesn't meet your needs.. or your life gets complicated? You may have no intention of cheating on your husband, but I'd say everyone at some point has no intention of cheating.. until they build up enough resentments and justifications. You have a head start on the justifications.. You have an example in front of you, your dad in how it can all work out great in the end. I hope when you say you can be as good a parent to your kids, you leave out the cheating part.


Maybe her tune will change if her husband ever cheats on her...something tells me the humans make mistakes mantra will fly out the window.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> As a relative newcomer I've noticed that the mantra "the cheater is the only one responsible for the cheating" often is interpreted to mean that the betrayed spouse has no responsibility for the breakdown of the marriage. I believe that's wrong.


I believe that is wrong as well.

But the words coming out from some here is this. They will put their little disclaimers up there saying that the BS is in now way responsible or caused their partners cheating.

But then there is a big BUT in there, whether said outright or implied, with words such as the BS made the situation ripe for an affair for their spouse or they pushed their spouse into the arms of another.

If someone says, "the BS is in no way responsible for their spouses cheating. They are only responsible for their half of the health of the marriage.", then that makes perfect sense and should stop there. But the cheater apologists don't stop there. After their disclaimer they DO link the WS's behavior to what the BS did or didn't do exactly right.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

I think of it along the lines: if I park my car in a bad neighbourhood am I responsible for my car being stolen? 

Personally, I don't believe I am. While perhaps I shouldn't be surprised it was stolen considering the neighbourhood I am not *responsible* for it being stolen. There are laws against stealing and I have an expectation that those laws will be respected. Unfortunately there are those out there who's character is such that they choose to violate the law. 

The same is true of a partner who cheats. While I may allow the relationship to deteriorate to the point my partner is desperately seeking affection I'm not providing I am not responsible for their choice to cheat. They have other options. 

I don't think anyone on this thread is denying the BS has to own their part in the state of the marriage. However I think some of us differ on whether by extension than means they're also partly to blame for the cheating.

My personal opinion is they're not.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Laurel said:


> It's not about being "perfect." He didn't cheat because I didn't cook his steak right or my housekeeping wasn't up to snuff.


Well according to one person's post, it is about being perfect. That person said it could be that all it takes for some to cheat is one aspect of a BS's behavior could push the WS to cheat. If all it takes is one small "flaw", that to me indicates, at least to that poster, that sometimes it is about being perfect and towing the WS's line to keep them from cheating.




> So now I am a "cheater apologist" because I have the nerve to acknowledge my own responsibility in the disintegrated state of my marriage? :scratchhead: That is so far off it is simply laughable.


Whats laugable is you didn't understand what I said.

I said a cheater apologist will say, and I quote, "if the BS wasn't neglectful, abusive, etc, then the WS wouldn't have cheated"

Are you saying this? If so, then yes, you are a cheater apologist.

If you do not hold this view, then no, you are not.

I didn't say a word about taking responsibility about fixing a BS's flaws in the marriage. I realize that there are 2 people responsible for the health of the marriage and I have said as much.



> But reconciliation was the right choice for me. And that means my H and I BOTH need to work on improving ourselves and being better for each other. Yes, he committed the ultimate sin by cheating. But I have chosen to give him a second chance, and making our "new" marriage work is something we are both responsible for.


And I have never stated otherwise. What bothers me, if you do feel this way, and I never said you do, is if you think that you are responsible for your husband's cheating. If you think that, then your husband owns you.

If you don't think that, then you realize that reconciliation will take hard work on part of both of you.




> Being supportive and patient. Answering any questions I have, even if he's already answered them 100 times before. *Stopped going out to bars with his buddies.* Ditched his relationships with people who were not "friends of the marriage." Takes an interest in things I like. Plans regular date nights. Helps out around the house without being asked. Calls and texts very frequently when he's not around. The phone that used to be attached to his hip and password-protected is now unlocked and left in another room if we are at home or in the car if we are out (so his full attention is on us). He thanks me for giving him a second chance. And many other things. He has done everything I have asked and then some.


Boom, there you go. My sentiments exactly. Especially the bolded part.


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## Pattiroxxi (May 3, 2014)

Do you want my honest opinion? NO of course not!!!!

I didn't do anything wrong, and my husband decided to cheat on me. Most of the times, the person who cheats is 100% responsible for his own garbage. 

I see, so your mom was not very nice? well let me tell you from what i seen you posting on this website, i would say your dad is not a holy man either. Why not divorce but cheat instead? 

sorry but you dad made a much bigger mistake than your mom did. Your dad should have TALKED to her instead going to another woman... most of the times the cheating spouse only wants to talk things out AFTER they are caught cheating. This is why it's their and their own fault only. Cheaters are selfish people, they only care about their own satisfaction. Your dad is one of them, sorry.

Nothing equals cheating. Bad behavior from the other partner does NOT equal cheating. If i would be your mom i would have acted the same, you clearly do not deserve her and i am happy for her that she got rid of you. 

Made a mistake? you are talking very easily about something as horrendous as cheating. You seem to lean towards the cheaters side i would say.

My opinion.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Hardtohandle said:


> I am wondering where the OP is going with all these posts.. I've looked back at the post she has created and just makes me wonder..



The answer to your curiosity lies in the very first sentence in the thread



Feeling-Lonely said:


> I realize this is highly provocative thread.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Pattiroxxi said:


> Do you want my honest opinion? NO of course not!!!!
> 
> I didn't do anything wrong, and my husband decided to cheat on me.


Some people will say bullshyte to that. That you just HAD to have done something or not done something for your H to decide to cheat.




> Most of the times, the person who cheats is 100% responsible for his own garbage.


Not most of the time, all of the time.

Both spouses responsible for the health of their marriage 50/50 and both need to work on any flaws they have because NO marriage or spouse is perfect. They should work on the marriage because they want it to be happy. NOT out of fear of what their spouse will do.

But the cheating is all on the cheater and their character.


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## Pattiroxxi (May 3, 2014)

vellocet said:


> Some people will say bullshyte to that. That you just HAD to have done something or not done something for your H to decide to cheat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The second part is very true. It all lies in the person's character, but i disagree that all the times the cheater is at the fault. Yes most of the times it IS the cheater who is to blame, but there are situations such as a sexless marriage where cheating is justified in my opinion. 

I know one guy who lives in a sexless marriage for 20 years and his wife doesn't care about him or what he is doing or basically anything. He wanted to start an affair with me, but i refused as i was married to a now ignorant cheater. 

Yes, those who think the other spouse is EQUALLY responsible for the cheating are people with very low awareness of how the society works. Such people are probably the ones that don't make a big deal out of things and those that would say " you're a crazy woman and your husband will be lucky he got rid of you" 

I heard this so many times, met many people like this and if my friend would turn into one of those people, he or she would be my enemy in a second. I have no respect for such people.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

MaritimeGuy said:


> I think of it along the lines: if I park my car in a bad neighbourhood am I responsible for my car being stolen?
> 
> Personally, I don't believe I am. While perhaps I shouldn't be surprised it was stolen considering the neighbourhood I am not *responsible* for it being stolen. There are laws against stealing and I have an expectation that those laws will be respected. Unfortunately there are those out there who's character is such that they choose to violate the law.
> 
> ...


What if you don't know it's a bad neighborhood, because you've been in the house for years and your wife is the only one going outside, and she told you it's fine, it's in a great spot. Meanwhile, she gives your car to some guy, and tells you it's still out there doing fine.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Pattiroxxi said:


> The second part is very true. It all lies in the person's character, but i disagree that all the times the cheater is at the fault. Yes most of the times it IS the cheater who is to blame, but there are situations such as a sexless marriage where cheating is justified in my opinion.
> 
> I know one guy who lives in a sexless marriage for 20 years and his wife doesn't care about him or what he is doing or basically anything. He wanted to start an affair with me, but i refused as i was married to a now ignorant cheater.
> 
> ...



Oh boy, here we go from the car in a bad area analogies to the good old "they didn't have sex with me, so it's okay that I become a scumbag.. they became a scumbag first"

The old two wrongs making it right argument.

She abused me by withholding sex, so I abused her back by sneaking and lying. 

Very mature.. and responsible way to handle things. Great way to set an example for others and to take ownership of your choices. 

Now go ahead with the absurd "It'll cost money to divorce" scenario, that will help justify becoming a scumbag cheater. Those usually follow the 'no sex makes it okay to lie' excuse.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Pattiroxxi said:


> The second part is very true. It all lies in the person's character, but i disagree that all the times the cheater is at the fault. Yes most of the times it IS the cheater who is to blame, but there are situations such as a sexless marriage where cheating is justified in my opinion.


No.
Infidelity is not justified.
If you are in a sexless marriage and you have tried to work things out with no success, then end the relationship.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Pluto2 said:


> No.
> Infidelity is not justified.
> If you are in a sexless marriage and you have tried to work things out with no success, then end the relationship.


BEFORE IT GETS TO 20 YEARS!!! OMG!!!!! How much life do you want to waste.. that poor man. Leave, don't cheat. Especially if he's cheating with women that are in relationships, so he's going to destroy other relationships because his is screwed up. Show some self respect, show some respect to the married woman you're hitting on.. show some respect to her husband even if you don't know him.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

My goodness folks!

To say "I cheated and it's your fault". Is merely Juvenile Thinking. 

The math does not compute. Blame sharing? I was caught speeding and it's your fault??? Sorry, no one would be in jail if it was everyone else's vault. Or we would all be in jail by the same reasoning. Blaming the victim is very popular. 

Sorry, I cannot buy someone's own personal responsibilities, actions and choices are some one else's fault. We all have a will of our own. It stops at willing others to absorb their faults.

Juvenile Thinking for sure.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Considering my H had a RA, I can safely say that I am most definitely responsible for his infidelity.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> Considering my H had a RA, I can safely say that I am most definitely responsible for his infidelity.


You can most definitely say you are responsible for the actions that lead him to decide to have an RA or not, but unless you were there actually pushing him into her, that is all on him, as many here have been in his shoes and chose not to pursue the same results.


(Boy doesn't that paint a picture in your mind  )


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> Considering my H had a RA, I can safely say that I am most definitely responsible for his infidelity.


I see it more as him using your affair as an excuse to have an affair. Did it work, did his affair cancel yours out and fix everything?


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

pidge70 said:


> Considering my H had a RA, I can safely say that I am most definitely responsible for his infidelity.


With love and respect, a perfect example of this kind of thinking. Can all people in RAs also blame you too? Have we found the ultimate blame for our own choices?

It merely shows the both of you are sadly capable of what you've actually done. Rug weeping by blaming yourself resolves nothing. How you deal with it is taking blame for all actions.

There are two wills involved, not one. No one is perfect. We all do our best and are capable of great things and not-so-great things -- all actions though, we own. No one else. 

Equally, do you blame your H for your A?


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## pollywog (May 30, 2013)

Nope. I take 50% responsibility for issues in our marriage but the affair was 100% him and him only. Even when he knew how hurt I was he continued being smug, arrogant and an a$$ about the whole thing. He could have left at anytime and taken half of everything, but he chose to stay a hurt me daily. We are trying to reconcile but has been very rocky road to travel. I have about reached my limit and think I am ready to just jump the sinking ship.


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## Pattiroxxi (May 3, 2014)

russell28 said:


> Oh boy, here we go from the car in a bad area analogies to the good old "they didn't have sex with me, so it's okay that I become a scumbag.. they became a scumbag first"
> 
> The old two wrongs making it right argument.
> 
> ...


It's a better reason than let's say because he was bored perhaps.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Squeakr said:


> You can most definitely say you are responsible for the actions that lead him to decide to have an RA or not, but unless you were there actually pushing him into her, that is all on him, as many here have been in his shoes and chose not to pursue the same results.
> 
> 
> (*Boy doesn't that paint a picture in your mind*  )


Not sure if you were purposely trying to be hurtful but, you failed. He had an EA not a PA.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Q tip said:


> With love and respect, a perfect example of this kind of thinking. Can all people in RAs also blame you too? Have we found the ultimate blame for our own choices?
> 
> It merely shows the both of you are sadly capable of what you've actually done. Rug weeping by blaming yourself resolves nothing. How you deal with it is taking blame for all actions.
> 
> ...


Nothing has been rugswept and no I do not blame him for my A.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

russell28 said:


> I see it more as him using your affair as an excuse to have an affair. Did it work, did his affair cancel yours out and fix everything?


No, it most definitely did not.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

russell28 said:


> I see it more as him using your affair as an excuse to have an affair. Did it work, did his affair cancel yours out and fix everything?



It appears so to me. They are still together (as far as I know).


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> Not sure if you were purposely trying to be hurtful but, you failed. He had an EA not a PA.


No not trying to be hurtful, sorry if it hit a nerve that was not the intention. It was just one of those things that paints a picture in you mind when you see it written out there as so many times we hear people saying that their WS blamed them for the A and the BS is like really was I there making sure it happened as that is the way it is coming across?? Guess I never really thought of having an EA as a RA (although I can see the possibility I just always associated RA with PA).


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

pidge70 said:


> Nothing has been rugswept and no I do not blame him for my A.


For the exact same reason, he should not blame you for his EA. You may have in your mind, opened the door. But it is he who walked through it alone.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Pattiroxxi said:


> The second part is very true. It all lies in the person's character, but i disagree that all the times the cheater is at the fault. Yes most of the times it IS the cheater who is to blame, but there are situations *such as a sexless marriage where cheating is justified in my opinion*.


Then why didn't I cheat?

Its NEVER justified. 



> I know one guy who lives in a sexless marriage for 20 years and his wife doesn't care about him or what he is doing or basically anything.


Then he should have left her. Its not an excuse to cheat. If someone is unhappy, try to get the spouse to tag team fixing the problem or get the hell out.




> He wanted to start an affair with me, but i refused as i was married to a now ignorant cheater.


Well if you say cheating is justified in certain circumstances, what is to say your husband's isn't? To say he is an ignorant cheater is to say that what he did isn't justified. Why is his not justified, but someone elses might be? If you use "justification" as an excuse to cheat, then what was your husband's justification?

See where we can go with this? Mind you I'm not saying your H was justified because I don't think there is ever a justification.

I don't care if you deny him sex or what the excuse he would see as a reason he cheated. If you listen to some, there had to be something YOU did that your husband cheated.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> Considering my H had a RA, I can safely say that I am most definitely responsible for his infidelity.


If there ever was a justification, this would certainly be it.

But even in this case its not a justification.

What kind of man would I be if when I found out my wife cheated, that I went out and did so myself?


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

vellocet said:


> What kind of man would I be if when I found out my wife cheated, that I went out and did so myself?


Vindictive


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Amplexor said:


> Vindictive


Yes, he did it to be vindictive. He wanted to hurt me as much as I hurt him. Does that make it right? No but, I understand where he was coming from. We will make it, there is love between us.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Amplexor said:


> Vindictive


That too.

I was thinking more on the lines of a cheater as well. Becoming that which I despise.


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## Pattiroxxi (May 3, 2014)

vellocet said:


> Then why didn't I cheat?
> 
> Its NEVER justified.
> 
> ...


I know but at least it's a more legit reason to cheat if you reached the situation point, than if you were bored.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Pattiroxxi said:


> I know but at least it's a more legit reason to cheat if you reached the situation point, than if you were bored.


And if your husband used this "justification"? You'd accept that it was your fault?


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

MaritimeGuy said:


> I think of it along the lines: if I park my car in a bad neighbourhood am I responsible for my car being stolen?
> 
> Personally, I don't believe I am. While perhaps I shouldn't be surprised it was stolen considering the neighbourhood I am not *responsible* for it being stolen. There are laws against stealing and I have an expectation that those laws will be respected. Unfortunately there are those out there who's character is such that they choose to violate the law.
> 
> ...


You are right. You also have to understand that the correct road to take is divorce. And many spouses, mostly wives, are not in a financial position to get a divorce. That leaves them in a very bad place.

And then there is the fact that most married folks who start an affair do NOT expect to be caught. My guess, based on a long life of observation, is that most are NOT caught. And that's a problem that nobody knows how to solve.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

russell28 said:


> Oh boy, here we go from the car in a bad area analogies to the good old "they didn't have sex with me, so it's okay that I become a scumbag.. they became a scumbag first"
> 
> The old two wrongs making it right argument.
> 
> ...


You seem to be venting. I understand that. But I will point out that divorces are not free and lawyers like to be paid. There are folks out there who cannot afford a lawyer.

As for the sex bit, what happens if your husband is a good provider, is excellent with the kids, is very sociable, family regard him highly and so on? But he's not interested in sex. That leaves the wife in a very difficult position, doesn't it? She's in love with the guy and he's in love with her. Must it be divorce, with family wondering ever after why she divorced such a good guy, or must she live in a sexless marriage for the rest of her life?


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Laurel said:


> I don't believe I deserved to be cheated on. Nobody deserves that. That was was a very wrong choice my H made all on his own.
> 
> But I am able to recognize what I did to contribute to the disintegrated state of my marriage. I was far from a perfect wife. As painful as it is, I understand my H's mindset as he descended down the path of infidelity. I'm not excusing it or defending him, or saying that he was justified. All I am saying is that I understand how the conditions were ripe for it to happen. And I understand how he justified it to himself - even though he was very wrong to do so. And because of all of this, I ultimately made the decision to R.
> 
> ...


Credit to you. Massive credit to you .......and begrudgingly to your husband too... only on the basis that any cheat does not deserve it., the gift of reconciliation.

This post shows just how fortunate any wayward who gets that second chance is, and from what you say he is taking full advantage of that second chance to enhance your lives together 

Long may it last


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> You seem to be venting. I understand that. But I will point out that divorces are not free and lawyers like to be paid. There are folks out there who cannot afford a lawyer.
> 
> As for the sex bit, what happens if your husband is a good provider, is excellent with the kids, is very sociable, family regard him highly and so on? But he's not interested in sex. That leaves the wife in a very difficult position, doesn't it? She's in love with the guy and he's in love with her. Must it be divorce, with family wondering ever after why she divorced such a good guy, or must she live in a sexless marriage for the rest of her life?


Great argument. You have convinced me she should and is justified in cheating on the great guy. 


In case you haven't figured it out I am being sarcastic. There is no way she should live sexless so she should get out. She has a choice the thing is when she cheats he had no choice. Is that fair that he is a low drive/ interest guy and should live with the shame, betrayal, loss or trust and respect so she can get some??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

We are jointly responsible for keeping our relationships healthy, but the _choice_ of whether or not to cheat is the responsibility of the cheater alone.

If I found myself low on funds and the food in my fridge was meagre and unappetizing, it wouldn't give me the right to go rob the local grocery store.


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## theexpendable (May 9, 2013)

I take blame for my half of our marital issues. We had a wonderful marriage up until parenthood. One we had our kid our issues and ability to work as a team were magnified. Being first time parents we didn't know what the heck we were doing. We started arguing a lot because neither of us were getting sleep and the resentment started to build. A year later POSOM came into the picture and probably chatted her up about his sh1tty marriage and she reciprocated and the EA was underway. It really happened that fast.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Q tip said:


> My goodness folks!
> 
> To say "I cheated and it's your fault". Is merely Juvenile Thinking.
> 
> ...


 So, you met my ex!
Yes, he did tell me once his A's were my fault. We were married 28 years.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Great argument. You have convinced me she should and is justified in cheating on the great guy.
> 
> 
> In case you haven't figured it out I am being sarcastic. There is no way she should live sexless so she should get out. *She has a choice the thing is when she cheats he had no choice.* Is that fair that he is a low drive/ interest guy and should live with the shame, betrayal, loss or trust and respect so she can get some??
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She has the choice 

Every argument about who is culpable for adultery stops RIGHT there 

Nothing else to say - you can choose to stay and be maybe unhappy resentful if you like *or* you can get out, accept a mess for a while but get away clean with your self respect and dignity intact and some future amicability guaranteed 

But no why I would I want to do that when I can cake eat myself to death and take everyone down with me !

Great choice


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> You seem to be venting. I understand that. But I will point out that divorces are not free and lawyers like to be paid. There are folks out there who cannot afford a lawyer.
> 
> As for the sex bit, what happens if your husband is a good provider, is excellent with the kids, is very sociable, family regard him highly and so on? But he's not interested in sex. That leaves the wife in a very difficult position, doesn't it? She's in love with the guy and he's in love with her. Must it be divorce, with family wondering ever after why she divorced such a good guy, or must she live in a sexless marriage for the rest of her life?


She should lie and cheat and become a sneak. She should trick everyone into thinking her marriage is fine, but hide in the shadows and see a lover. She should continue to use her husband for money, and to watch the kids, and to put on a show for the family, but sneak off and have sex with a co-worker or someone she met at a bar and risk getting STDs or hooking up with a bunny burner. She should abuse her husband, because he's abusing her and she can't afford a divorce. She should take the low road, and not even attempt to do the right thing or chose the moral path. That way family won't wonder why she'd divorce such a great guy. Excellent reasons and justifications. Money and worrying about what people think. It's okay to use people and abuse people if it's financially in your best interest and to keep a good appearance to the family. 

One more thought.. how do you think the family feel when they find out she was cheating on such a nice guy? Since we care so much about what family thinks, but not so much about the troubled spouse that's having the intimacy issues. The one we vowed to love in sickness and in health till death do us part.

Excellent job with the excuses and justifications. It could be a lesson in cheating 101.. how to justify and make reasons why it's okay to be a liar and a cheat.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

sidney2718 said:


> You seem to be venting. I understand that. But I will point out that divorces are not free and lawyers like to be paid. There are folks out there who cannot afford a lawyer.
> 
> As for the sex bit, what happens if your husband is a good provider, is excellent with the kids, is very sociable, family regard him highly and so on? But he's not interested in sex. That leaves the wife in a very difficult position, doesn't it? She's in love with the guy and he's in love with her. Must it be divorce, with family wondering ever after why she divorced such a good guy, or must she live in a sexless marriage for the rest of her life?


It must be truth. To trick another person into living a lie in such circumstances is unconscionable. The destruction if it is discovered is too complete.

The scary thing about your post is that you are not just postulating someone falling into infidelity by accident, or struggling. You are talking about a conscious decision to cheat. Simply wrong.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

The only scenario where I could be sympathetic to the cheater would be in a situation where a long term partner was suffering some sort of dementia...like Alzheimers and could no longer 'consent' to sex or even actively engage in relationship. 

I could see staying married to care for them however perhaps getting involved with someone else for both physical and emotional needs. It would be a horrible decision to have to make and I hope I'm never faced with anything like that.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

russell28 said:


> Perhaps your mom was a mess because your father was a cheater and always put on the blame on her for his infidelity, and he's passed a bit of that on to you. While cheating on your mother, your father was being a moral-less monster.. If you ask her if she wanted him to cheat on her, and she said that yes, he asked and she said it was okay, then she does share some blame. Otherwise, it was his choice, not hers to not fix his marriage or leave his marriage, instead he made a dysfunctional marriage and now he has a child that's confused about what's wrong and what's right and who's to blame for making decisions. You've been gas lit to believe that cheating is partly the fault of the betrayed spouse. The one that was lied to and deceived, and made to think things were fine so they wouldn't discover an affair. This is what cheaters want you to believe. Your father did a good job in that aspect.


Ouch! Honest and totally accurate.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Feeling-Lonely said:


> I am not confused, I know that cheating is wrong but so is being ignorant, lazy, abusive, selfish etc etc. The cheating is always the big deal breaker. The cheated on spouses have so to speak the get out of jail card to any responsibility.
> 
> Unfortunately There is no black or white in life, it is more complicated.


Perhaps you aren't confused, but you certainly are wrong.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

P51Geo1980 said:


> That won't solve the problem of why the WS felt like they were pushed to cheat or had no other option but to cheat.


No other option but to cheat? Perhaps in the Bizarro world. But we're talking about real life, right?



P51Geo1980 said:


> I won't be responding to anyone who responds to me.


That sounds about right.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

A wife wants a mink coat, but the husband won't agree to it. She has never asked for anything else, so she steals the coat. Who, if anyone, deserves to be prosecuted, grasshopper?


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Why? So the BS can tow the WS's line out of fear it will happen again? I'm not saying that if a BS stays with a WS that they don't have some work to do in the marriage.
> 
> But if the marriage was that bad, then it was that bad for both spouses and in a lot of cases, one of them does not cheat when the other one did.
> 
> If a marriage is to survive, then both spouses need to own their crap. But to say we need to understand why the cheater cheated is basically emotional extortion. One should not work on themselves out of fear their WS uses some excuse to cheat again in the future.


I was miserable in my marriage. She was controlling, accused ME of cheating constantly for 13 years, constantly lied, put us in bankruptcy because of her secret spending addiction and was generally nasty to me. I didn't cheat. She did. Because she claimed I "didn't appreciate her". Well guess what? She didn't appreciate me either, and she emotionally abused me for our entire marriage by way of shutting me down as a person through constant cheating accusations (oh, the irony). But I didn't cheat. SHE cheated. Because she "deserved to be happy". Guess what? So did I.

I didn't cheat because: 
1. I made a vow to her and everyone else that I wouldn't 
2. I valued and honored my wife and family 
3. I could never be that cruel to someone, especially someone I loved
4. I have morals and values

I had just as much if not MORE "reason" or "justification" to cheat than she did, but I did not. Why? Because I chose not to be a ****ty, cruel, selfish, skank spouse.

There's NEVER a reason to cheat. If your spouse is that awful and making you that miserable, then use what is available to you - DIVORCE. Lying, cheating, deceiving, back stabbing, putting your spouse's health at risk, destroying their life and the lives of your children - that's somehow your BS doing? Please. How utterly moronic.

ETA - sorry Vellocet, you know I obviously wasn't directing the post to you even though I quoted you.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

tornado said:


> Never been in the situation but I would think most times both spouses are at fault. If one spouse is unhappy about a aspect of the marriage and the spouse refuses to try to correct it. Yes the spouse should just leave but lawers and judges have made divorces expensive and complicated, so the spouse try to feel that void with an affair.


So because it's pricey and inconvenient, the WS is justified in banging someone else. Got it, thanks!

"Never been in the situation"....nooooo, really???


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Wazza said:


> I'm glad the thought of cheating never entered your mind, but one day, assuming you are human and have a pulse, I believe it will. At that stage a whole lot of stuff will come into play.


You are extremely ignorant if you believe all humans are capable of or will cheat. It simply isn't the case. You can tell yourself that all the livelong day, but there are 2 types of people in this context: those who cheat, and, you got it, those who don't.

Just because YOU have cheated or are capable of it does not mean we all are. That notion sickens me and I'm so tired of hearing it on this board. Speak for yourself, not for those of us who remained faithful, oftentimes, even under the worst circumstances.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Healer said:


> You are extremely ignorant if you believe all humans are capable of or will cheat. It simply isn't the case. You can tell yourself that all the livelong day, but there are 2 types of people in this context: those who cheat, and, you got it, those who don't.
> 
> Just because YOU have cheated or are capable of it does not mean we all are. That notion sickens me and I'm so tired of hearing it on this board. Speak for yourself, not for those of us who remained faithful, oftentimes, even under the worst circumstances.


Ummmm, Wazza never cheated. He was cheated on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Being a betrayer is a choice one makes. As has been stated, there are reasons why people betray, but no excuses.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

"As for the sex bit, what happens if your husband is a good provider, is excellent with the kids, is very sociable, family regard him highly and so on? But he's not interested in sex. That leaves the wife in a very difficult position, doesn't it? She's in love with the guy and he's in love with her. Must it be divorce, with family wondering ever after why she divorced such a good guy, or must she live in a sexless marriage for the rest of her life?"



Wazza said:


> It must be truth. To trick another person into living a lie in such circumstances is unconscionable. The destruction if it is discovered is too complete.
> 
> The scary thing about your post is that you are not just postulating someone falling into infidelity by accident, or struggling. You are talking about a conscious decision to cheat. Simply wrong.


Unfortunately, the WS usually doesn't "get" the complete destruction, and can't comprehend how devastating the wound of infidelity can be. The harm that is done is horrendous and deeply painful. If you haven't lived it, it's hard to imagine what it's like.

Linda MacDonald describes it in her book How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair:

"The blow of intimate betrayal assaults a spouse's self-worth like few other human experiences. Hurt partners are frequently traumatized to the point they can hardly think straight. They usually behave in uncharacteristic and unattractive ways, making them rather unpleasant to contend with. They may act desperate, irrational, angry, paranoid, and shaken. They sometimes cry easily or scream words you've never heard them use before.

If strayers remain detached and ambivalent, they worsen the partner's insecurities which only increases the craziness at home. When hurt spouses have difficulty regaining their composures, rather than feel compassion, short-sighted betrayers tend to view their zombied spouses with disdain."

I wonder if the OP knows the whole story; mother may have been devastated and totally demoralized by the infidelity, thrown into depression by it, and may not have been able to cope. She may be more of a victim than the OP realizes.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Healer said:


> You are extremely ignorant if you believe all humans are capable of or will cheat. It simply isn't the case. You can tell yourself that all the livelong day, but there are 2 types of people in this context: those who cheat, and, you got it, those who don't.
> 
> Just because YOU have cheated or are capable of it does not mean we all are. That notion sickens me and I'm so tired of hearing it on this board. Speak for yourself, not for those of us who remained faithful, oftentimes, even under the worst circumstances.


Did you actually read what I wrote? Do you have any idea of my history? Because your post suggests to me the answer to both of those questions is no.

I've been a betrayed spouse a lot longer than you, and my advice is, let go of bitterness or it will complete the damage your spouse's infidelity began. This is not a defence of your spouse, or an attempt to ignore the pain that has occurred in your life. It's a suggestion for healing.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

hopefulgirl said:


> Unfortunately, the WS usually doesn't "get" the complete destruction, and can't comprehend how devastating the wound of infidelity can be. The harm that is done is horrendous and deeply painful. If you haven't lived it, it's hard to imagine what it's like.
> 
> Linda MacDonald describes it in her book How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair:
> 
> ...


Sorry to be a pedant, but you quoted the person I was refuting as if it were part of my post. Could I ask you please to edit and correct that. I certainly don't support the view I was commenting on.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Healer said:


> You are extremely ignorant if you believe all humans are capable of or will cheat. It simply isn't the case. You can tell yourself that all the livelong day, but there are 2 types of people in this context: those who cheat, and, you got it, those who don't.
> 
> Just because YOU have cheated or are capable of it does not mean we all are. That notion sickens me and I'm so tired of hearing it on this board. Speak for yourself, not for those of us who remained faithful, oftentimes, even under the worst circumstances.


I agree.. if you've been in a couple situations where it's made so easy, all you have to do is give yourself permission, and you just can't bring yourself to it, as tempting as it is.. You learn that about yourself, that you can't cheat. You also learn to not put yourself into those situations. It's not that you don't think about it, it's what you think about it. The "oh this isn't good, I got to get myself out of this situation quick" instead of "nobody will ever know, I can just lie to myself and it'll all be fine". You won't let yourself get into an EA or a PA because you don't want it, you know how to avoid it, and you understand boundaries, temptation, self control and a bunch of other stuff that helps you along. Having self respect, respect for your spouse and family. Wanting to keep your marriage safe, yourself safe. Etc.. etc.. I would just see more negatives than positives in my mind. You don't get too close to people of the opposite sex, and if you get a chance for a quickie from some hottie, you turn it down. Not a complicated formula for keeping yourself cheating free.

So yea, spare me the 'everyone can do it' argument, that's one that people that will cheat tend to use. That's right up there on the list of justifications with 'everyone is doing it'.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Sorry to be a pedant, but you quoted the person I was refuting as if it were part of my post. Could I ask you please to edit and correct that. I certainly don't support the view I was commenting on.


You were right - I tried to make it look like it was a quote from someone else but it didn't as long as it was within the pink quote box. I think that's better now.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

russell28 said:


> I agree.. if you've been in a couple situations where it's made so easy, all you have to do is give yourself permission, and you just can't bring yourself to it, as tempting as it is.. You learn that about yourself, that you can't cheat. You also learn to not put yourself into those situations. It's not that you don't think about it, it's what you think about it. The "oh this isn't good, I got to get myself out of this situation quick" instead of "nobody will ever know, I can just lie to myself and it'll all be fine". You won't let yourself get into an EA or a PA because you don't want it, you know how to avoid it, and you understand boundaries, temptation, self control and a bunch of other stuff that helps you along. Having self respect, respect for your spouse and family. Wanting to keep your marriage safe, yourself safe. Etc.. etc.. I would just see more negatives than positives in my mind. You don't get too close to people of the opposite sex, and if you get a chance for a quickie from some hottie, you turn it down. Not a complicated formula for keeping yourself cheating free.
> 
> So yea, spare me the 'everyone can do it' argument, that's one that people that will cheat tend to use. That's right up there on the list of justifications with 'everyone is doing it'.


Actually, it's the ones who protest too much that you have to watch 

Can we have a discussion about the problem without accusing people of being cheaters or potential cheaters just because they hold a different world view?

You talk about understanding temptation. Does that mean you have experienced it?


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> Ummmm, Wazza never cheated. He was cheated on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So? My point remains. He insinuated all humans will eventually cheat. That is not true.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Did you actually read what I wrote? Do you have any idea of my history? Because your post suggests to me the answer to both of those questions is no.
> 
> I've been a betrayed spouse a lot longer than you, and my advice is, let go of bitterness or it will complete the damage your spouse's infidelity began. This is not a defence of your spouse, or an attempt to ignore the pain that has occurred in your life. It's a suggestion for healing.


Did you write this?

"I'm glad the thought of cheating never entered your mind, but one day, assuming you are human and have a pulse, I believe it will."

You are implying if one is human, they will cheat, no? Or are you simply saying all humans think about it? If it's the latter, I apologize. If you are one the people who is of the school of thought that "everyone is capable of cheating", then that's what I take great umbrage at, BS or not.

And for the record, I never thought about cheating on my WW for our entire 12 year marriage, until she cheated on me, we were in false R and I contemplated a revenge affair. Before that, never crossed my mind. We were together 16 years. I never went through with the RA btw.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

russell28 said:


> I agree.. if you've been in a couple situations where it's made so easy, all you have to do is give yourself permission, and you just can't bring yourself to it, as tempting as it is.. You learn that about yourself, that you can't cheat. You also learn to not put yourself into those situations. It's not that you don't think about it, it's what you think about it. The "oh this isn't good, I got to get myself out of this situation quick" instead of "nobody will ever know, I can just lie to myself and it'll all be fine". You won't let yourself get into an EA or a PA because you don't want it, you know how to avoid it, and you understand boundaries, temptation, self control and a bunch of other stuff that helps you along. Having self respect, respect for your spouse and family. Wanting to keep your marriage safe, yourself safe. Etc.. etc.. I would just see more negatives than positives in my mind. You don't get too close to people of the opposite sex, and if you get a chance for a quickie from some hottie, you turn it down. Not a complicated formula for keeping yourself cheating free.
> 
> So yea, spare me the 'everyone can do it' argument, that's one that people that will cheat tend to use. That's right up there on the list of justifications with 'everyone is doing it'.


My stbxww was rarely at home - she was always out (pretending to be working) until the wee hours, screwing other men, doing blow and putting us in bankruptcy. She was emotionally abusive and made me give up my music career and all of my friends to appease her cheating fears (big mistake - but I complied). Every WEEK she accused me of cheating - yet I was always 100% faithful. That in itself could drive a guy to cheat, no?

And my circumstance? Good looking, fit, well dressed, charming, funny, successful man who can get up on stage with his guitar and sing and play songs I've written and rock the crowd, with the wife nowhere in sight, and beautiful women everywhere interested in me (yup - bragging to illustrate a point). My opportunities were endless, and I could've cheated and never, ever been caught. I wasn't happy in my marriage, the opportunity was everywhere and she wasn't around. But, did I cheat? No. Never crossed my mind. I would NEVER have done that to her, to my kids. I couldn't even fathom it. It was so far out of my scope of reality. It's just not who I am.

So the whole "well you just didn't have the opportunity" or "you weren't in the right circumstance"...is all utter bullsh*t. My character, values and morals made it easy for me to remain faithful, despite all the opportunity for hot, willing p*ssy, whether on the music scene or at work.

There are those who cheat and those who don't. That's it.


ETA: If I could go back in time, when we were still together, and I knew she was cheating...would I THEN take the opportunity to cheat? I mean, why not, she is and I certainly can, right? Nope. Not a chance. Because that would make me no better than her and the guilt would eat me alive. She cheated and walked away from me...but I'm the one with my head held high.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Healer said:


> So? My point remains. He insinuated all humans will eventually cheat. That is not true.


I read it as and think he meant that all humans have the capacity to contemplate it at some point in their life (like you speculated in the next post you made regarding this statement).

I also think that is a valid viewpoint. I don't believe that all people have the capacity within them to cheat and destroy theirs and possibly other families, but I think that we all have the drives and desires that could make us think or fantasize about the possibilities. That is where the separation kicks in, those who have the drive, fortitude, and morality to not act upon the impulse and keep it within the fantasy realm. We all have needs wants and desires for somethings new and different, but we don't all have the morality and self conviction to not act upon them.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> I read it as and think he meant that all humans have the capacity to contemplate it at some point in their life (like you speculated in the next post you made regarding this statement).
> 
> I also think that is a valid viewpoint. I don't believe that all people have the capacity within them to cheat and destroy theirs and possibly other families, but I think that we all have the drives and desires that could make us think or fantasize about the possibilities. That is where the separation kicks in, those who have the drive, fortitude, and morality to not act upon the impulse and keep it within the fantasy realm. We all have needs wants and desires for somethings new and different, but we don't all have the morality and self conviction to not act upon them.


Totally agreed, and if that's all he was saying, then I apologize.

People of all ilks, classes, races, backgrounds etc have all sorts of crazy, bad, wacky, immoral thoughts/ideas/fantasies. Of course. But acting on those fantasies takes a different sort of person.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Healer said:


> Totally agreed, and if that's all he was saying, then I apologize.
> 
> People of all ilks, classes, races, backgrounds etc have all sorts of crazy, bad, wacky, immoral thoughts/ideas/fantasies. Of course. But acting on those fantasies takes a different sort of person.


I'm curious, how did you come up with your username?


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> I'm curious, how did you come up with your username?


Why?


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Healer said:


> Why?


Just curious. If you feel the question is too intrusive, no worries.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Healer said:


> Totally agreed, and if that's all he was saying, then I apologize.
> 
> People of all ilks, classes, races, backgrounds etc have all sorts of crazy, bad, wacky, immoral thoughts/ideas/fantasies. Of course. But acting on those fantasies takes a different sort of person.


It is what I was saying but I will add one further point. Dunno how old you are, I am mid fifties. Life throws different challenges at you as you go through it. The nature of temptation changes. 

This doesn't mean you are doomed to cheat, but it does mean you could get through for years, and then something happens, some combination of circumstances you never saw coming, and the temptation becomes greater. Of course, you and I would (I think) both agree that it's what you do during that time that shows your true character.


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## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

I always find it curious when people say anybody could commit adultery, which does get said a lot around here.(I'm not adressing this at anybody on this thread btw) I wonder why they don't say the same thing about other heinous acts? Could anybody abuse a child or drunk drive into another motorist? A lot of people have done those awful things. Yet what would you make of someone pleading for understanding by accusing total strangers of being just as liable as they are? I wonder if saying that is really just a subtle way of minimsing the whole thing in their minds. "It wasn't really that bad, anybody could of done what I(or my spouse did)."

I believe everybody is tempted, but nobody is tempted by everything. I'm never gonna get drunk and slam into a family of four. I can say that because I never touch alcohol, it doesn't tempt me at all. I feel as much desire to drink it as I do to get a tattoo of where's waldo on my forehead. 
That doesn't mean I have never done anything wrong, or will never do anything I won't feel ashamed of in the future. It simply means that this particular sin holds no sway over my life. I think that when people make these kind of future character accusations they are just helping to make the chasm even wider on here. You have to remember you're talking to people whose lives have been ripped apart by adultery, insinuating that they're really no different than the person who has wounded them so deeply is not gonna win anybody over to your "side."




double edit:two spelling errors, whoops.....


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Wazza said:


> It is what I was saying but I will add one further point. Dunno how old you are, I am mid fifties. Life throws different challenges at you as you go through it. The nature of temptation changes.
> 
> This doesn't mean you are doomed to cheat, but it does mean you could get through for years, and then something happens, some combination of circumstances you never saw coming, and the temptation becomes greater. Of course, you and I would (I think) both agree that it's what you do during that time that shows your true character.


I'm 39, been a pro musician since I was 17. I made it through a 16 year (mostly bad) relationship (12 years married - well, still married, will be 14 right away, but papers are filed) and remained 100% faithful. I think I paid my dues and proved I am a faithful guy. Even during false R, when I was on the road and had every opportunity and "reason" - if you want to call it that, to cheat, I didn't. She even fully expected I would (well, she did our entire marriage so that's nothing new). I didn't.

Yes, life circumstances can change, yadda yadda. But the fact of the matter is, there are people who go to their graves and NEVER cheat on their spouse or SO. Being cheated on has made my resolve to never torture someone like that EVEN STRONGER. I doubt I will ever marry again. But if I do, and I feel the uncontrollable desire to stick my penis in another woman who is not my wife, I will divorce her first. My fundamental values and morals as a man will not change, and nobody can tell me that they will. I've held those values for 3 decades. Infidelity has strengthened their resolve, not weakened them.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> Just curious. If you feel the question is too intrusive, no worries.


Is it because you associate the word "Healer" with someone who is supposed to be all at peace, have no anger and only spew forth positive, love-filled forgiveness and light and I clearly do not, and you find the name ironic?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Nostromo said:


> I always find it curious when people say anybody could commit adultery, which does get said a lot around here.(I'm not adressing this at anybody on this thread btw) I wonder why they don't say the same thing about other heinous acts? Could anybody abuse a child or drunk drive into another motorist? A lot of people have done those awful things. Yet what would you make of someone pleading for understanding by accusing total strangers of being just as liable as they are? I wonder if saying that is really just a subtle way of minimsing the whole thing in their minds. "It wasn't really that bad, anybody could of done what I(or my spouse did)."
> 
> I believe everybody is tempted, but nobody is tempted by everything. I'm never gonna get drunk and slam into a family of four. I can say that because I never touch alcohol, it doesn't tempt me at all. I feel as much desire to drink it as I do to get a tattoo of where's waldo on my forehead.
> That doesn't mean I have never done anything wrong, or will never do anything I won't feel ashamed of in the future. It simply means that this particular sin holds no sway over my life. I think that when people make these kind of future character accusations they are just helping to make the chasm even wider on here. You have to remember you're talking to people whose lives have been ripped apart by adultery, insinuating that they're really no different than the person who has wounded them so deeply is not gonna win anybody over to your "side."
> ...


It's not about future character assassinations, or implying that the betrayed spouse is as bad as the cheating spouse. (In general, of course they are not). It's about grappling with the nature of human failing, as a way to put the adultery into perspective. 

After the adultery, you have to decide what to do. Reconcile or divorce? If you divorce, do you then live alone or try again? If you try again, how do you pick a spouse who will be faithful?

Or to put it another way, in the desperation following my wife's affair, I asked "how could she do this to me?" and I have sought to answer that question.

To me adultery is always wrong, always a failing of human character. But there is a big difference between someone who failed in a moment of unusual weakness and has learned from it, vs someone whose moral compass stops at "don't get caught". 

And I am not really in this to win people to my side. I am sharing what helped for me in choosing to reconcile and making it work. What people do with that is up to them.


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## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

Wazza said:


> It's not about future character assassinations, or implying that the betrayed spouse is as bad as the cheating spouse. (In general, of course they are not). It's about grappling with the nature of human failing, as a way to put the adultery into perspective.
> *Let me preface this by saying I like you Wazza, I have read some of the advice you have given people here and I generally agree with it. On top of that, even though we appear to disagree on this subject, I do think you really are just trying to help, which is commendable. Now to my question. Is the perspective you are putting the adultery in the actual reality or just something "easier" to swallow? Was the BS really just as likely to have an affair as the WS? Maybe that is not what you mean and I am misunderstanding what you're saying, I know it's possible, I've done it before.*
> After the adultery, you have to decide what to do. Reconcile or divorce? If you divorce, do you then live alone or try again? If you try again, how do you pick a spouse who will be faithful?
> *Fair enough.*
> ...


*Maybe I worded that wrong, my bad. I didn't mean to imply that you or anybody else was playing a game or simply trying to win an argument, but more along the lines of asking what is the best method of reaching people with your message and changing their minds. If you believe what has helped you can help others then you should share that with others.*


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Healer said:


> Is it because you associate the word "Healer" with someone who is supposed to be all at peace, have no anger and only spew forth positive, love-filled forgiveness and light and I clearly do not, and you find the name ironic?


Oooooo, so close.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Pidge is toying with her food again...


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> Oooooo, so close.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You probably shouldn't read so much into one's handle on a internet forum, pidge70. I'm known as "Gryncher" on another forum, but I have nothing against Christmas, so there you go.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> Pidge is toying with her food again...


Ahhhhhh now I see. A couple of waywards having their fun with me. It's awful sweet to see you two have each other's backs. Birds of a feather, and all that. Carry on. 

Speaking of ironic user names, "Affaircare"? That's funny.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Healer said:


> Ahhhhhh now I see. A couple of *waywards *having their fun with me. It's awful sweet to see you two have each other's backs. Birds of a feather, and all that. Carry on.
> 
> Speaking of ironic user names, "Affaircare"? That's funny.


That would be *former waywards* thank you very much. Not that it matters to you as you seem to paint all cheaters with the same brush. 

FTR: Yes, I do find your name highly ironic.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> That would be *former waywards* thank you very much. Not that it matters to you as you seem to paint all cheaters with the same brush.
> 
> FTR: Yes, I do find your name highly ironic.


I see, you're picking a fight about *semantics*. Does that mean I am a "*former betrayed spouse*" and not a betrayed spouse?? I want to make sure I get that right so I don't embarrass myself further. 

To alleviate your confusion: "Healer" was a nickname given to me by fans of a Blues band I used to be in back in the day, because they found my guitar playing soothing. I can change it if it will make things easier for you. 

And I'm not much of a painter, more of a charcoal kinda guy.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Healer said:


> I'm 39, been a pro musician since I was 17. I made it through a 16 year (mostly bad) relationship (12 years married - well, still married, will be 14 right away, but papers are filed) and remained 100% faithful. I think I paid my dues and proved I am a faithful guy. Even during false R, when I was on the road and had every opportunity and "reason" - if you want to call it that, to cheat, I didn't. She even fully expected I would (well, she did our entire marriage so that's nothing new). I didn't.


Well done. And in some ways I can relate. 



Healer said:


> Yes, life circumstances can change, yadda yadda. But the fact of the matter is, there are people who go to their graves and NEVER cheat on their spouse or SO.


Agree.



Healer said:


> I doubt I will ever marry again. But if I do, and I feel the uncontrollable desire to stick my penis in another woman who is not my wife, I will divorce her first. My fundamental values and morals as a man will not change, and nobody can tell me that they will. I've held those values for 3 decades. Infidelity has strengthened their resolve, not weakened them.


This becomes more complex. What if, for example, you believe divorce is wrong? What if you believe sex without marriage is wrong? Obviously that doesn't make adultery right. But what when there are no morally acceptable choices?

I assume you are having sex with women who are not your wife. That would not be morally acceptable to me. 

I'm not questioning your fundamental values or morals, and I am not accusing you of being a cheat waiting to happen. Just posing questions.

I stayed in what was, for a time, a toxic and essentially sexless marriage, for the sake of my kids. Do I believe it was the right call? Absolutely, I put their needs ahead of mine. Did that lead to some moments of serious temptation? Yes. Maybe that influences my thinking.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Healer said:


> I see, you're picking a fight about *semantics*. Does that mean I am a "*former betrayed spouse*" and not a betrayed spouse?? I want to make sure I get that right so I don't embarrass myself further.
> 
> To alleviate your confusion: "Healer" was a nickname given to me by fans of a Blues band I used to be in back in the day, because they found my guitar playing soothing. I can change it if it will make things easier for you.
> 
> And I'm not much of a painter, more of a charcoal kinda guy.


You are too cute!... 

If you get some kind of "healing" from all the vitriol you spew to me and my FWW "friends", kudos to you. I truly hope you do heal someday. I am sorry that you were so deeply hurt. I'm sorry for every BS whose story I've read. 

Most of us are here for the same thing. To help others with their marriages. I'd like to think I've helped at least a couple them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Healer said:


> I see, you're picking a fight about *semantics*. Does that mean I am a "*former betrayed spouse*" and not a betrayed spouse?? I want to make sure I get that right so I don't embarrass myself further.
> 
> To alleviate your confusion: "Healer" was a nickname given to me by fans of a Blues band I used to be in back in the day, because they found my guitar playing soothing. I can change it if it will make things easier for you.
> 
> And I'm not much of a painter, more of a charcoal kinda guy.


OK, I was with you until I found out you play the blues. Don't you EVER get sick of those same twelve bars????? 

OK, let me behave myself, I will go and put on somem Keb Mo or Fabulous Thunderbirds as penance.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Healer said:


> Ahhhhhh now I see. A couple of waywards having their fun with me. It's awful sweet to see you two have each other's backs. Birds of a feather, and all that. Carry on.
> 
> Speaking of ironic user names, "Affaircare"? That's funny.


Healer, this will be the last time I ever reply to you, and I don't think you and I have ever even spoken to each other before! But I was not "having my fun" with you nor helping Pidge to have fun with you. I was observing the fact and attempting to lighten up the mood. But by all means, carry on so we can see the true you. 

If you'll notice, Pidge has been a member here since 2011 (that's three years) and over the course of that time, I've gotten to know her a little bit. Amazingly, even though she's been through a tremendously tough time, she has never once spoken to me in nearly as derogatory or disrespectful tone as you just did. She maybe has the right to lash out in pain and "old friendship" and I'd consider the source and look past it. You have not earned that right. 

And for the record, my name is Affaircare because I was both a LOYAL SPOUSE in my first marriage (my exH left me and our 2 elementary school children for his wistress) and a DISLOYAL SPOUSE in my second marriage. I have a website dedicated to helping people deal with the impact of an affair (care for your marriage after an affair), I've spent four years HERE on this site just helping people cope with infidelity, and I spend my life helping people recover and/or reconcile after an affair. So YES... AFFAIR*CARE*. 

Now, please do not darken my door again. This is my taking responsibility for my how happiness and removing you from my presence. Bye!


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Well done. And in some ways I can relate.
> 
> 
> Agree.
> ...


I see your points - but I can't fathom seeing divorce as being wrong but infidelity as acceptable. That's just not how I'm wired. If divorce was not an option for me, then I'd have to stay married, but I still wouldn't cheat. I guess I'd just be stuck being brutally miserable. I did it for 16 years, what's another 16? 

Regarding staying for the kids, that's a very, very personal decision and I don't judge anyone for going either way with that. For me, personally, I wouldn't (didn't) stay in the marriage for the kids. The kids are much happier and healthier now, and our relationship is much stronger. It's important to me to teach them that you don't stay with someone who treats you cruelly, lies to you, deceives and and breaks their vows to you, and puts you in potentially physical danger. If either of my kids were in a marriage where they were being cheated on, I would hope they would divorce their disloyal spouse and find someone who treated them with love and respect, not like sh*t on the bottom of a shoe. But of course that would be their call, not mine. I can only try to instill those values.

But again - no disrespect to those in R or those that have R'd. To each their own. Both paths are hard, hard roads to travel, and both have their consequences.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Wazza said:


> OK, I was with you until I found out you play the blues. Don't you EVER get sick of those same twelve bars?????
> 
> OK, let me behave myself, I will go and put on somem Keb Mo or Fabulous Thunderbirds as penance.


Haha! Actually I'm not much of a blues player anymore. The band I'm in now is roots/Americana/singer-songwriter/rockabilly/country. And yes, I did get tired of 3 chord, 12 bar blues. Bored as sh*t, matter of fact. This chicken pickin' stuff is super challenging and a lot of fun.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> Healer, this will be the last time I ever reply to you, and I don't think you and I have ever even spoken to each other before! But I was not "having my fun" with you nor helping Pidge to have fun with you. I was observing the fact and attempting to lighten up the mood. But by all means, carry on so we can see the true you.
> 
> If you'll notice, Pidge has been a member here since 2011 (that's three years) and over the course of that time, I've gotten to know her a little bit. Amazingly, even though she's been through a tremendously tough time, she has never once spoken to me in nearly as derogatory or disrespectful tone as you just did. She maybe has the right to lash out in pain and "old friendship" and I'd consider the source and look past it. You have not earned that right.
> 
> ...


Don't be a hypocrite. You referred to me as Pidge's "food" and it was derogatory, as was her "sooooo close" - but I think you both know that. I never said anything to her that deserved that nasty little reply. So don't dish if you can't take. Bye!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Nostromo said:


> Originally Posted by Wazza
> It's not about future character assassinations, or implying that the betrayed spouse is as bad as the cheating spouse. (In general, of course they are not). It's about grappling with the nature of human failing, as a way to put the adultery into perspective.
> *Let me preface this by saying I like you Wazza, I have read some of the advice you have given people here and I generally agree with it. On top of that, even though we appear to disagree on this subject, I do think you really are just trying to help, which is commendable. Now to my question. Is the perspective you are putting the adultery in the actual reality or just something "easier" to swallow? Was the BS really just as likely to have an affair as the WS? Maybe that is not what you mean and I am misunderstanding what you're saying, I know it's possible, I've done it before.*


Well, I am not saying the BS is just as likely to have an affair. To that extent you are misunderstanding me. 

Is my perspective the actual reality? I believe so, but I might be wrong. Is it easier to swallow? Well I struggled with it for years, and clearly others on this board find it just as distasteful a notion as I did at one point. So it's not easy.



Nostromo said:


> After the adultery, you have to decide what to do. Reconcile or divorce? If you divorce, do you then live alone or try again? If you try again, how do you pick a spouse who will be faithful?
> *Fair enough.*


It's a lot more than fair enough. It's the million dollar question that makes this discussion important. Are you going to live alone? And assuming most people will not choose that in the long term, then what are you going to do?



Nostromo said:


> Or to put it another way, in the desperation following my wife's affair, I asked "how could she do this to me?" and I have sought to answer that question.
> *Have you found the answer? If so does it involve putting yourself "in her shoes" and coming to the conclusion that you would have likely made the same choices she made given the circumstances? If that is the case then I would not argue with you, but I will say that I truly believe some people if placed in the same exact scenario a hundred times over would have done the right thing and not chosen to betray their spouse.
> *


I never said in her shoes I would likely have made the same choices. I wouldn't. No question. Not trying to be grumpy, but you guys keep reading things into my words that aren't there.

All I said was most people will face temptation, and then lots of factors come in to play. The person's character is one of them. The exact situation is another. Russell28 made a good point. One way to avoid infidelity is to recognise situations where you will be strongly tempted and avoid them. My wife knows that.....now..... 



Nostromo said:


> To me adultery is always wrong, always a failing of human character. But there is a big difference between someone who failed in a moment of unusual weakness and has learned from it, vs someone whose moral compass stops at "don't get caught".
> *I agree, however I do believe most people, at least at the time of their adultery would fall into the latter end of that spectrum unless they confessed to their spouse.
> *


To an extent I agree with you. Heck, I am remembering certain conversations from the time of the affair and shaking my head at what went down. 

But the distinction matters to me because, if I thought my wife would scheme about future affairs behind my back, I could not reconcile. If she does it again she's gone. And after 24 years I still get a knot in my gut when I contemplate that.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Healer said:


> I see your points - but I can't fathom seeing divorce as being wrong but infidelity as acceptable. That's just not how I'm wired. If divorce was not an option for me, then I'd have to stay married, but I still wouldn't cheat. I guess I'd just be stuck being brutally miserable. I did it for 16 years, what's another 16?
> 
> Regarding staying for the kids, that's a very, very personal decision and I don't judge anyone for going either way with that. For me, personally, I wouldn't (didn't) stay in the marriage for the kids. The kids are much happier and healthier now, and our relationship is much stronger. It's important to me to teach them that you don't stay with someone who treats you cruelly, lies to you, deceives and and breaks their vows to you, and puts you in potentially physical danger. If either of my kids were in a marriage where they were being cheated on, I would hope they would divorce their disloyal spouse and find someone who treated them with love and respect, not like sh*t on the bottom of a shoe. But of course that would be their call, not mine. I can only try to instill those values.
> 
> But again - no disrespect to those in R or those that have R'd. To each their own. Both paths are hard, hard roads to travel, and both have their consequences.


Good with all of this. Just need to pedantically stress that I don't think infidelity is ever acceptable. I think sometimes it is forgivable, and sometimes reconciliation is possible.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Actually, it's the* ones who protest *too much that you have to watch
> 
> Can we have a discussion about the problem without accusing people of being cheaters or potential cheaters just because they hold a different world view?
> 
> You talk about understanding temptation. Does that mean you have experienced it?


It's yourself that you have to watch.. have your own back. Yes, I understand temptation, because I have experienced it as I described above.


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## truetomaself (May 19, 2014)

Very new to this forum so Hi.I do have a my own story on which Ive posted a thread but I found this thread engaging enough to share my own views.I have been wronged as my partner gave in his carnal temptations and came back and confessed to me.I have chosen to reconcile and give him one last chance.Wazza,I so relate and subscribe to your thoughts.But,reconcilation is a difficult task,as I am experiencing(although my scar is only 2 weeks old)


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

To the thread-title, the simple answer, from me personally is 'Yes'.


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## Hurtin_Still (Oct 3, 2011)

.....simple answer from me, is no. I, for SO long ....did share the blame for my wife's ONS ..though ...I had no idea why. (well ...I did have an idea ....that reason being that a MC told me I was to blame.). But after so many years of sharing blame for HER ACTIONS AND DECISION TO CHEAT ...I had moments of enlightenment (gained here) ....that erased that guilt and responsibility from my head. Its hard enuff to carry the pain of betrayal .....without believing you're directly responsible for it.

.....so ...on goes my journey of "dealing with it" ......but it's a bit less burdened by self-blame that I wrongly carried.


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