# Given up on sex



## Jak22 (Sep 14, 2015)

Okguy said:


> I am lucky if it happens once a month. In our 60s.


Much the same situation, but I have given up, and over the last 12 months have effectively killed my libido. It is just a little bit less painfull than the on/off situation through most of our marriage. My sex life started third rate, and slowly went down from there. Why did I stick with it? Well, love, strong optimism that things would improve, a libido of 11 out of 10, pathological naivety and young when married.
My wife is always compliant with most of my wishes, but recently all the activities that a normal couple might enjoy in the bedroom, have finally disappeared completely. My wife never initiated anything, or asked for anything other than occasionally telling me to get on with it as she is not going to orgasm. She can't tell me or anyone else what she wants from our sex life, and is adamant that a marriage counsellor would be a waste of time and money. What depresses me most is the thought of the rest of my life much like it is now, and the obvious fact that she has never thought of me as a desirable sex partner. Oh well...
jak


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

*Re: Aging and keeping the passion after 40+ years*



Jak22 said:


> Much the same situation, *but I have given up, and over the last 12 months have effectively killed my libido*. It is just a little bit less painfull than the on/off situation through most of our marriage. *My sex life started third rate*, and slowly went down from there. Why did I stick with it? Well, love, strong optimism that things would improve, a libido of 11 out of 10, pathological naivety and young when married.
> My wife is always compliant with most of my wishes, *but recently all the activities that a normal couple might enjoy in the bedroom, have finally disappeared completely.* My wife never initiated anything, or asked for anything other than occasionally telling me to get on with it as she is not going to orgasm. *She can't tell me or anyone else what she wants from our sex life, and is adamant that a marriage counsellor would be a waste of time and money*. What depresses me most is the thought of the rest of my life much like it is now, and the obvious fact that she has *never thought of me as a desirable sex partner*. Oh well...
> jak


Having been in a Sex Starved Marriage, I can identify with some of what you are saying. However, based on my experience (and yours might be different) I needed to drop my anger, change myself, do 180's to change the way my wife and I interacted before she started to come around and agree to go to a sex therapist with me.

Again, reading between the lines of your post you sound angry and I would bet that your wife knows you are angry at her and that makes her feel angry toward you. Anger is not going to improve anything so try hard to remove it from your heart. It may take your wife time for her to drop her anger.

I can tell you that sex therapist marriage counselors are not cheap, but they cost a lot less than divorce attornies. A good sex therapist can fast track a reconciliation. There are lots of other great resources out there if you want to try to do it yourself initially. 

I was in a similar situation, and said to myself that I deserved better and decided to try to fix my marriage and if I couldn't, then end it and find a happy loving sexual relationship with a different woman after divorce. I wanted to make sure I tried everything prior to giving up. I gave myself a little over a year to see if I could save my marriage or not.

Why not try to fix your marriage rather than just giving up on it? It will be hard work to change yourself, but you might just find a woman that you really love and share a lot of experiences with.

She might even be greatful that you fought for your marriage and her love.

Some good books to help with changing yourself are Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy, Chapman's 5 Languages of Love, and MW Davis the Sex Starved Marriage. They are all available in paperback and used bookstores or a library.

I am sorry for how you feel and wish you luck in finding happiness. Posting is theraputic. You might open a thread in the Sex in Marriage focused topic area.


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## Jak22 (Sep 14, 2015)

I originally posted this in another section and was advised to open a thread here.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Aging and keeping the passion after 40+ years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak22 
Much the same situation, but I have given up, and over the last 12 months have effectively killed my libido. It is just a little bit less painfull than the on/off situation through most of our marriage. My sex life started third rate, and slowly went down from there. Why did I stick with it? Well, love, strong optimism that things would improve, a libido of 11 out of 10, pathological naivety and young when married.
My wife is always compliant with most of my wishes, but recently all the activities that a normal couple might enjoy in the bedroom, have finally disappeared completely. My wife never initiated anything, or asked for anything other than occasionally telling me to get on with it as she is not going to orgasm. She can't tell me or anyone else what she wants from our sex life, and is adamant that a marriage counsellor would be a waste of time and money. What depresses me most is the thought of the rest of my life much like it is now, and the obvious fact that she has never thought of me as a desirable sex partner. Oh well...
jak

Response by Young at Heart:

Having been in a Sex Starved Marriage, I can identify with some of what you are saying. However, based on my experience (and yours might be different) I needed to drop my anger, change myself, do 180's to change the way my wife and I interacted before she started to come around and agree to go to a sex therapist with me.

Again, reading between the lines of your post you sound angry and I would bet that your wife knows you are angry at her and that makes her feel angry toward you. Anger is not going to improve anything so try hard to remove it from your heart. It may take your wife time for her to drop her anger.

I can tell you that sex therapist marriage counselors are not cheap, but they cost a lot less than divorce attornies. A good sex therapist can fast track a reconciliation. There are lots of other great resources out there if you want to try to do it yourself initially. 

I was in a similar situation, and said to myself that I deserved better and decided to try to fix my marriage and if I couldn't, then end it and find a happy loving sexual relationship with a different woman after divorce. I wanted to make sure I tried everything prior to giving up. I gave myself a little over a year to see if I could save my marriage or not.

Why not try to fix your marriage rather than just giving up on it? It will be hard work to change yourself, but you might just find a woman that you really love and share a lot of experiences with.

She might even be greatful that you fought for your marriage and her love.

Some good books to help with changing yourself are Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy, Chapman's 5 Languages of Love, and MW Davis the Sex Starved Marriage. They are all available in paperback and used bookstores or a library.

I am sorry for how you feel and wish you luck in finding happiness. Posting is theraputic. You might open a thread in the Sex in Marriage focused topic area.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thank you so much for your thoughtful and kind response, Young at Heart.

I have thought long and hard about everything you have said.
I find it interesting that you picked that I sounded angry. I often don't realise how I come across at times. My wife has told me that when I am depressed, I look angry. In reality, I feel a mixture of sad, angry, trapped, betrayed, used, resentful, etc. I try to see the upside, but I'm afraid that sex makes my world go around.

I used to feel fine for a few weeks and then slowly realise that there was just no life-affirming sexual gratification on offer and I would gradualy sink into a major depression. We would have a discussion, and then I would be OK for another few weeks and the cycle would start over again. 

Since I have given up on sex, I have just felt a constant milder form of the above feelings. I think this is slightly prefereable but i'm still not sure. I hope things will get better over the coming years.

I worry about our relationship suffering as since I gave up on sex, I have not felt like being affectionate to my wife as I was before, in spades.

My wife is just sailing along like a serene swan as if nothing has changed. I can't see under water so don't know how fast she is paddling. 

Please note that we will never split, but at present we are living like a close brother and sister.

As far as our sex life went, my wife has only recently admitted to me that she has never felt penetration during PIV sex. I have never felt this since our first time. Almost every time we had sex, I would ask her if she could make it a bit tighter when I wanted to orgasm. She knew how to do pelvic floor exercises, she had been prescribed these early on to try to sort her lifelong prolapsed uterus, but she claimed that she could never remember to do them. Many years ago I tried to remind her but she bit my head off. 

PIV has been off the menu for about a decade now due to a sore vaginal rim. Not actually much of a loss as it turns out.
BTW, before you ask, I am smack on average size in the tackle department.

She has lost both breasts due to a very early breast cancer of which she is now free, 10 years later.

She could never do BJs due to a clicking jaw problem -- I have never ever had a BJ, my brother says they are great!

She usually doesn't have the stamina for HJs, that's apparently my job.

I used to love going down on her, but she never liked it. I don't think I could handle it now though, having developed an aversion to female pubic hair.

One day, out of the blue, she declared that she would never tolerate having anal sex. This puzzled me as I am not at all interested in this and have never ever mentioned it.b

As far as her seeing counselling as a waste of time and money, I have to accept her expertise as she is a retired psychologist, and would know. This makes me suspect that there is something that she is not telling me.

OH, I almost forgot, one of the last things available to me was her occasionally flirting sexily with me without having to be asked. She would always oblige when asked, but what I think I craved was the slightest indication that she saw me as a sexual man. She would try for a while , but it would dwindle to nothing. Eventualy she put a stop to this by declaring that she was just not a flirty person. 

The other thing I liked to do was give her a hug as we passed and occasionally touch her on the pubic region outside her clothes. this stopped after too many "Wash your hands!" afterwards.

I can't help thinking that she is following in her mother's footsteps. 
She was apparently asexual, and spent her days trying not to "get the old boy excited" and sometimes exclaimed that there was too much sex in the world.

Well that should give you a flavour of the situation, so to speak, regards, jak


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## Jak22 (Sep 14, 2015)

*Re: Aging and keeping the passion after 40+ years*

Thanks for the thoughtful response, Young at Heart, I have done as you suggest and moved this to Sex in Marriage, jak


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jak, I moved your posts and the reply you got from the other thread to this one. That way your story is all in one thread. Hope that helps.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jak, how old are you and your wife?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

jak, this doesn't sound like something that can ever change for her, sadly.

Can you focus all your sexual energy on yourself, and develop a rich and vibrant solo sex life?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Here is a thread with some discussion that might be helpful.



The secret to desire in a long-term relationship2


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## afab (Jul 28, 2015)

I am sorry to say that this will never improve. You are right you would be wasting your money. You say you would never divorce why? Can you tell us more. Like why did she marry you. Is this both your first marriage, and/or do you have children from another one. Does your wife believe she married 'beneath' her.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Jak my man, there was another guy on here that had problems similar to yours that called himself CopperTop. Married to a rotund women with every problem imaginable to keep her from enjoying sex, he to was in the same predicament and reminds me a lot of you. Perhaps you could peruse his threads to garner some advice.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Jak22 said:


> .....but I have given up, and over the last 12 months have effectively killed my libido. *It is just a little bit less painfull* than the on/off situation through most of our marriage. *My sex life started third rate*, and slowly went down from there. Why did I stick with it? Well, love, strong optimism that things would improve, a libido of 11 out of 10, *pathological naivety and young when married.*
> 
> My wife is always compliant with most of my wishes, but recently all the activities that a normal couple might enjoy in the bedroom, have finally disappeared completely. *My wife never initiated anything*, or asked for anything other than occasionally telling me to get on with it as she is not going to orgasm. *She can't tell me or anyone else what she wants from our sex life, and is adamant that a marriage counsellor would be a waste of time and money.* What depresses me most is the thought of the rest of my life much like it is now, and the obvious fact that she has never thought of me as a desirable sex partner. Oh well...
> jak


Your really need to read No More Mr. Nice Guy plus MW Davis the Sex Starved Marriage and work on yourself and your attitude. It is not hopeless unless you give up.

You have given up. You are settling for less pain rather than happiness. You feel that your sex life as always been subpar. You say your wife NEVER initiates. 

Your wife probably knows exactly how you feel as voice tone, body language, and facial expressions are easily read by a spouse of many years. If she knows you have given up and feel she is a subpar lover, how do you think that makes her feel about you. She is probably pissed at you.

Pull yourself up and become a more "manly man." Get pride in who you are and what you can achieve. Get respect for yourself. You don't need your wife to provide you all your pleasure or feelings of self worth. You should not be codependent on her for your emotional happiness.

One of the critical steps in NMMNG and MW Davis SSM is Getting a Life. That typically means loosing weight, getting fit, taking up hobbies that bring you pleasure and change how your wife views you.

For example, in my Getting a Life, I went from a size 44 inch waist to a size 34 inch waist. I got really fit. During my transformation I ran half marathons, did mile century bicycle rides, backpacking, and mountain climbing (these were all things I had done early in my life and given up to be a good provider, husband and provider). When I took a first place in my age group on a run, I was proud to go from couch potato to "runner." When I climbed certain peaks, I was proud that as a old 60 year old guy I could do that with people half my age. Same with completing century bike rides. All this gave me new found confidence and pride in who I was. Exercise also is a great cure for depression and self doubts.

I also did a lot of things that are viewed as manly by some women. I took up hunting again, target shooting and reloading. I cut and chopped our own firewood. I took up gun collecting and firearms repair. In short I found hobbies that gave me pleasure that were not focused on my wife that made her view me as a different person from the person I had been. I also took up new things like foot reflexology and some massage lessons, which my wife seemed to enjoy being my practice subject.

One of the new things I toyed with was taking up nude figure drawing, but decided against it. I still might do that one one day. To have me happily going off to a class and drawing nude women and bringing my drawings home would really put my wife in emotional quicksand. Probably why I haven't done it, as I really don't want to hurt her and she has changed so much I don't see much benefit in it. But it would change how she would view me.

I did start to dress better and take more pride in my appearance. My wife's girlfriends noticed this big time. A business parties where my wife brought me, some of her women co-workers would flirt with me and tell my wife what a good catch she had. Other friends of my wife would complement her on my "transformation" and tell her how lucky she was.

You also need to work on changing how you interact with your wife. The first step is to drop all anger you have toward her. Sure she has done things that are wrong, but she would probably say you have to and she was just reacting to you. You need to take some responsibility for your share of the marital problems, even if you don't know what they are.

For example, I felt my wife emotionally abandoned me. She felt I disrespected and emotionally abandoned her. I got over my feelings of anger and resentment and started making sure she felt loved and cherished (not sexually) by communicating to her in her love languages (Chapmans 5 languages of love). I was constantly evaluating WHY I was doing things for my wife as I understood the concept of covert contracts explained within Glover's NMNMG. That is how I learned to give my wife unconditional love.

The changes sparked her curiosity as to what was going on. She asked to read some of the things that I had been reading. We talked about the books. Ultimately she agreed to go to a Sex Therapist. 

They ARE worth the money, no matter what your wife says. My W said she was not broken and didn't need to go to a shrink to be fixed. I agreed with her and said that we needed to go because I was changing and needed some help in finding sexual happiness within marriage. 

I did some 180's in our relationship that meant she could not treat me the same as before. 

For example, when she would get positive emotional feelings toward me that she didn't want, she use to pick fights with me. She knew my hot buttons. It took a lot of introspection, self control and change on my part to have her strike out at me verbally, and not take the bait and just calmly ask her why did she say that? Or to tell her that I appreciated her input, but didn't want to fight with her. That left her with positive emotional feelings and no way to have me undo them; no way to make herself the victim on a villian husband. She literally didn't know what to do, as her old methods no longer worked. Sometimes she would look at me and say she had no idea why she said such hurtful things other times she would walk away in frustration.

As others have said, you can not change her. Only your wife can change herself. However, you can change yourself and show your W that change is possible. Then you can do 180's so she has to figure out a new way to interact with you. That new way is totally of her choosing and may be better or worse, but it is new.

Think of your marriage as a high stakes trail and error science experiment. That is where a sex therapist can help mediate and educate. They can explain the obvious and provide options that your W can choose among if she chooses to change. 

You are only stuck in the status quo if you choose to be. An alternate future may be better or worse, but it won't be the same. You have to decide if the two of you deserve better and if you are going to try to achieve it, before you give up.

Good luck.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Jak22 said:


> Much the same situation, but I have given up, and over the last 12 months have effectively killed my libido. It is just a little bit less painfull than the on/off situation through most of our marriage. My sex life started third rate, and slowly went down from there. *Why did I stick with it? Well, love, strong optimism that things would improve, a libido of 11 out of 10, pathological naivety and young when married.
> *My wife is always compliant with most of my wishes, but recently all the activities that a normal couple might enjoy in the bedroom, have finally disappeared completely. My wife never initiated anything, or asked for anything other than occasionally telling me to get on with it as she is not going to orgasm. She can't tell me or anyone else what she wants from our sex life, and is adamant that a marriage counsellor would be a waste of time and money. What depresses me most is the thought of the rest of my life much like it is now, and the obvious fact that she has never thought of me as a desirable sex partner. Oh well...
> jak


Been there in my first marriage, jak, and I stayed for far too long because I suffered from the bolded issues and mindset as well.

I really don't think anything will change for the better at this late date, no matter what you try. You can now either live with this or leave. (Sure, you can try, but put a time limit on it. It can even be freeing to give up sex totally and detach.)

I left - but I was only 45 at the time, and it was easy to move on to another relationship. Even now at 61 I feel that I could move on pretty easily - but fortunately I have the kind of relationship now I've always wanted. Even now I feel I'm young enough and vital enough to enjoy a healthy sexual relationship for another 15 or 20 years - at least. 

If faced with a sexless relationship now, I might even prefer to be alone and in charge of my own happiness only - and no doubt I would find temporary liaisons if not another permanent relationship, and freedom to pursue any other interests I wish. My chances will even improve as I get older, if I remain healthy.


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## Jak22 (Sep 14, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> Jak, how old are you and your wife?


Both 71, been together 52 years and married 50 years.

We have been through an awful lot together.

We are soulmates, except for the sex, and I am scared that the little sex that she apparently enjoyed has just been a sham.

Jak


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## Jak22 (Sep 14, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> Can you focus all your sexual energy on yourself, and develop a rich and vibrant solo sex life?


Yes, I've been there, but it wears pretty thin after a while. I imagine there is nothing to top loving sex in a lifelong loving relationship. 

I was hoping for at least a continuation of what we had much earlier, long into our dotage, but the gradual dawning that it was all a sham is hard to take. 

Even though unsatisfactory, if genuine, would have been the best that was available to us. Now, I hope I can do without sex and become happy again.

All my adult life (marriage) I have tried to divert myself into my "little projects" mostly to do with woodwork and metalwork. God knows where I would have been now without this.

I wonder if anyone might be interested in how I have killed my libido.
I must stress that this is a personal scheme and not suitable to everyone.

I have adopted a four pronged strategy:

1. Medications. I have found an antidepressant that can drag me back up from a deep depression within an hour or so, and thus saves me from any drastic actions.
This also lowers my libido a bit.
Next I take an anti testosterone for a prostate caused urinary retention problem. This also lowers my libido.

2. Abstinence. As sexual desire is an appetite, not having any, soon gets you used to celibacy. I have not had an orgasm for six months now and don't have any desire to masturbate, which has not been the case for the previous 60 years.

3. Avertion thoughts. Just private thoughts to turn your mind to, that counteracts sexual thoughts which arise from the many visual ques that one comes across in general life.

4. Ageing. I'm sure that all this gets easier as you hang on to life year after year.

HTH, regards, jak


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## Jak22 (Sep 14, 2015)

Personal said:


> So Jak22, has the sex always been a problem or is it a more recent development?
> 
> In other words how long has sex been an issue over the past 52 years?


Yes. The first time, after a year of going together was very disappointing as the vaginal pressure was non-existent. She was a virgin when we met at 19.
My extreme sex drive and massive optimism made me persist.

Our second time about a week later, she exclaimed just before "I hope you are not going to make a habit of this!"

In hindsight, perhaps I should have pulled up my trousers and disappeared from the scene. Again, my youth, optimism, naivete, and sex drive made me persist.

I did try to "escape" a year later by moving 2000 miles away. She followed me, convinced me that we should get married, and then that we moved back home.

From there on it was just one disappointment after another until now, arguably the greatest disappointment. Nevertheless, I still love her to bits!

Cheers, jak


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

well, at least we did have some good years at the beginning... I would never have married someone who withheld sex from day one! That's madness...


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

Im living it as well, i have been on this site for a long time and have learned a lot. All of the things ive tried did have short term gains in the sex department but long term it hasnt changed. I struggle with how complicated this subject is, why is sex so difficult? Why would someone try so hard not to have sex? I know there are a myriad of potential reasons, but not wanting to get to the bottom of the matter to improve things is frustrating to say the least. Just letting it go on and not addressing it is the marriage death knoll.

It takes two. One can only do so much. The other has to want to make things better or nothing changes. Im where you are, a little younger but right there.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

there's lots of us in the same situation...


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

While I feel it's never to late to move on, it gets more difficult and the potential benefits of doing so in this scenario diminish rapidly with age (after 60, anyway). I think your only viable option - other than accept the situation - is to ask for an open relationship and seek sexual satisfaction elsewhere.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

okeydokie said:


> .....Why would someone try so hard not to have sex? I know there are a myriad of potential reasons, but not wanting to get to the bottom of the matter to improve things is frustrating to say the least. Just letting it go on and not addressing it is the marriage death knoll.
> 
> It takes two. One can only do so much. The other has to want to make things better or nothing changes. Im where you are, a little younger but right there.


First, you need to put yourself in your spouses shoes. While you fell there is a problem with sex, does she?

One of the things that Drs. Gottman taught me was that if you want to negotiate a gridlock issue with your spouse, you need to be able to understand and explain your partner's perspective as well or better than them.

That means you need to have talked to them and listened so you understand their reluctance. 

What your post sounds like to me is you know your needs, but haven't yet spent the time to fully understand her perspective. Do your homework. Talk to your spouse and find out WHY they don't want to do what you want to happen. they probably have reasons. 

Good luck to you in finding happiness.


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## Lean David (Sep 18, 2015)

Your wife may experience the problems with her libido. Some believe that the absence of sexual desire is not a disorder, but sometimes it occurs in the result of the hormonal imbalance or a certain injury. Maybe she has to visit a doctor?


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## Jak22 (Sep 14, 2015)

Sorry for not responding earlier, but I met a roadblock and it does not take much these days to deter me from doing anything other than my "diversion" projects.

I crafted a longish response to someone and pressed preview whereupon my post disappeared and a message appeared that said something like "you must review this thread as there have been more than 15 responses."
I pressed review, and got a page that seemed to have options to restart the thread with all the messages, but no matter what I clicked on, nothing happened. I gave up, I'm afraid.

I have a very unreliable internet connection, and am using an Android tablet, if this is relevant.
Cheers, jak


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## Jak22 (Sep 14, 2015)

I have been keeping a sort of diary for the last year or so. Not really a diary, more of a letting fly with all my inner thoughts, feelings and memories.

I usually craft these as a letter to someone, be it to my wife, a marriage/sex counselor, or, heaven forbid to my older, knowitall, sister-in-law.(also a psych

I usually keep them as an open project and add to them as I recall things. I find it cathartic as I really can't unburden to anyone else.

Recently I have been collecting memories of all the psychologically painful sexual encounters from the beginning.

Because recently, all avenues of sexual expression with my wife have closed due to apparently unavoidable physical reasons, the re-reading of this list brings me to only one conclusion -- my wife has always regarded sex as a necessary chore to be endured so that she will appear normal to all outsiders. And this, I think, is the nub of my present hurt, that there is not a female on this planet who regards me as a sexually desirable man. And please note that unfortunately, perhaps, I only desire sexual activity with this one female, my gorgeous 71 year-old wife. How perverse !!!

I do realise that this is a dilemma largely of my own making, and that there is no solution available, other than just sucking it up and learning to live with the situation I find myself in. Expressing here is cathartic, and I really do think I am becoming happier. I have started to push myself to masturbate every Sunday to some video clips that I find can give me an erection. All good!, Cheers, jak


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Jak, I know you say you want sex only with your wife, who is not going to start seeking you out to get laid. Ain't no MC or sex therapist gonna change that either. Why don't you find you something on the side. I'd bet your old lady would approve, just to keep you from pestering her and some mature chicks husband whose furnace has went out would approve also. In case you forgot, these girls have basically the same equipment and despite what they'd have you believe, one size fits all. (more or less )


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Jak22 said:


> I have been keeping a sort of diary for the last year or so. .....Recently I have been collecting memories of all the psychologically painful sexual encounters from the beginning.
> 
> Because recently, all avenues of sexual expression with my wife have closed due to apparently unavoidable physical reasons, the re-reading of this list brings me to only one conclusion -- *my wife has always regarded sex as a necessary chore to be endured* so that she will appear normal to all outsiders.
> 
> ...


A few thoughts from a 66 year old who has a 66 year old wife of 44 years. In a short time you will probably be able to mentor me.

I kept a diary for a couple years during my transition period. It helped me to record my revelations about me, things I tried with my wife, her responses, and the success of the sex therapy we had. As with most diaries, it was ultra private password protected. It was helpful to refresh my memory about actual events, to keep from changing them over time. Also sometimes exact words were important to gain an understanding of what my wife was trying to tell me and my recollection of exact words became fuzzy with time.

I think a diary can be important, but I would not dwell upon dredging up old negative memories. You have enough heavy lifting to do without adding to it. Focus on the present and the very near past as you move forward. For me when I was doing MW Davis SSM 180's it was all about trial and error in figuring out what worked with my wife. The diary was a way of recording the errors, so I would not repeat them and in recording partial successes so I could analyze them and figure out what new 180's I might try.

First of all, you need to work on yourself and your self confidence. I can assure you that there are women who would sexually desire you. You just need to have confidence in yourself. Getting a Life is about becoming proud in who you are and what you are capable of. After I got a life, started to dress better and take better care of myself, my wife's girlfriends noticed and complemented her on my transformation. When that happens for you, not only will you regain confidence in yourself, but your wife will know she has competition and needs to treat you as something others might want to take from her. That in itself is a huge change in the interpersonal dynamic, even if you don't want anyone but your wife.

Only wanting to have sex with your wife is the way things should be in a long term committed relationship. Just because she no longer wants (for whatever reason) to have sex with you, doesn't mean you no longer want to have sex with the woman you married, the mother of your children or the woman you share so much with and truly love. 

As to "duty sex" I can say that there is duty sex that is provided with no enthusiasm and there is duty sex that is provided with a sincere enthusiastic desire to pleasure one's spouse. My wife and I typically have sex twice a week. I would say 1 out of each 4 times is her initiating with absolutely no desire on her part to have an orgasm. That doesn't mean she doesn't want to pleasure me with the gift of her body, it just means it is her wanting to show me she loves me by pleasuring me.

One of the "deer in the headlights" moments I had was after I read Chapman's 5 Languages of Love and figured out how it applied to my wife and my situation. My wife is an acts of service and quality time love language person. I am a touch and words of affirmation/praise kind of guy.

Even during the worst of our sex starved marriage years, my wife would perform almost each day an act of service (i.e. act of showing me that she loved me) by making me a home cooked hot meal and have it ready for me shortly after I got off work. She might be angry at me, she might refuse to have sex with me, she might have emotionally lashed out and hurt me, but she still said to me in her love language each day that she loved me. How odd is that? Was it enough to make me feel loved and cherished? No! But it surprised me to finally understand how she thought.

Another love language for my wife was quality time. That meant when she wanted to show me how much she loved me, she would sit down and want to have a deep meaningful conversation as a way of expressing her love for me. So those times during Sunday TV football games when she sat down and wanted me to focus on her and turn the TV off, were actually her showing me she was reaching out so we would share our love for each other (in her mind). 

In her head, I was relaxing and sitting around, and it was the perfect time for her to show me how much she loved me by connecting with me. In my head, I wanted her to shut up and let me watch the game or at least talk during half-time. 

Once I understood that in her "foreign language" way she was telling me how much she loved me, putting my needs on the back burner to try to show her the love she needed so she could finally feel loved and cherished became a little easier.

Once she started to feel loved and cherished, then doing the 180's recommended by MW Davis began to produce noticeable results.

Posting and diaries, I also found were very theraputic for me. But I tried to keep a positive future orientation as much as I could. 

I really do wish you luck on finding happiness. I hope you can rekindle the spark in your marriage. If you do, your wife will have to want to as well. You can supply the spark, but she will have to help with the flame.

What helped me the most were three books Glover's NMMNG, Chapman's 5 Lanaguages of Love, and MW Davis Sex Starved Marriage. I know we have talked about how strongly NMMNG resonated with the both of us, but those two other books were also huge in finally understanding my wife and understanding how I could change myself and my relationship with my wife, so that she might be able to change the way she treated me.

Also as I have said before a sex therapist joint marriage counseling was a huge help as well.

Good luck.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

But isn't all of this love languages stuff largely immaterial in the face of someone who's a witholder by definition. All you might discover is a whole host of new things she's not interested in or resents. I would say by and large for better or worse people don't change. There is no epiphany on the road to Damascus moment. People who stonewall you do it because however it makes you feel, it makes them feel better.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

There's unfortunately alot of guys out there with wives that figure once she's gotten all she wants out of the marriage, kids, a big house, lots of spending money...etc. she can shut off sex. She figures that you probably won't leave because she can take everything and you won't want to be without the kids and the home you built for the family. It's exactly wnat happened to me. Until things get fair in divorce court for men, this will always be an avenue any woman can pursue.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Runs like Dog said:


> But isn't all of this love languages stuff largely immaterial in the face of someone who's a witholder by definition....
> 
> ....I would say by and large for better or worse people don't change. There is no epiphany on the road to Damascus moment. People who stonewall you do it because however it makes you feel, it makes them feel better.


The love language stuff is not going to create love that isn't there or change someone who doesn't want to be changed. It also will not change someone who is really evil or plotting. In my case if helped me realize that love was still there, just not in a way that I had previously understood.

Most people get married for a reason, have some good times and would be willing to change a little to regain some of that. Most people are afraid of change and don't really know how to change.

MW Davis in her book the Sex Starved Marriage talks a lot about how you can't force your spouse to change and love you. What you can do is change yourself and change the way you allow yourself to be treated, thus requiring your partner to eventually change the way they treat you (maybe for better or maybe worse, but change).

In my SSM, one of the things I learned to do when my wife would do something to emotionally try to hurt me was not take the bait. Smile at her and not get angry and using a calm voice and body language ask her why she said what she did or say I don't want to fight with you tonight. Her old trick of gaining emotional distance by fighting with me no longer worked. 

MW Davis points out that sometimes couples get caught up in an evil dance where they take turns hurting each other in a gradual marital downward spiral.

I think that unless really motivated, people are very reluctant to change and sometimes it looks easier to divorce and start fresh than to try to fix a marriage.

In my case, I really wanted to try to make my marriage work. The more I read about relationships, the more I realized that I needed to change myself first otherwise my next relationship was also likely to have similar problems to what I had. If I changed myself and became a better more fascinating person who knew how to make my partner feel loved and cherished, I could find love either with my wife or someone else. I changed myself and learned how to make my partner feel loved. 

Then she had a choice to make once the Sex Therapist asked her if she thought we would eventually divorce if she didn't ever have sex with me. The sex therapist forced my wife to say yes we would divorce. Then the sex therapist asked me if I had thought about divorce if we never had sex again. I said yes, I had researched it, promised myself that I would be in a loving sexual relationship with a woman by a certain birthday, but before I divorced my wife, I wanted to try to save our marriage. The sex therapist thought that was a very thoughtful and reasonable approach.

The ST then told my wife that she needed to make a decision as to being married or being divorced. She told my wife that I was a good man and many women would be thrilled to provide me the love and sex I wanted. The ST told my wife she had enough time to change herself if she wanted and that the ST would help her, but my wife needed to decide what she wanted and live the consequences of her decision.


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