# Guy friends...Its a fine line.



## Maroson (May 21, 2010)

So I have a different thread in here about my fiance and I and I have another issue I have been trying to cope with myself. 

Well since I am on here already I might as well spill it and get some advice from others. 

When I first started dating my now Fiance, I told her to be honest to me and never hide anything. That I would be more understanding than angry. I also asked her what she thought of cheating and she answered simply its wrong. 

years later we have had 3 incidents including guy friends and I have always forgiven her because its borderline but she seems to continually hurt me. 

Incident #1.
She had this guy friend since way before me and her started dating. After about a year I noticed him start inching in on trying to snag her. They would go out in groups to malls and stuff, the group had been friends since before we dated too and I was never invited. I found pics of his arm around her in pictures and I got very suspicious at that point. I confronted her on it and she said hes just a friend. So I dropped it and moved on. Months down the road she was going through a hard time and I saw a text while sitting in the ICU of a hospital with her of him say "I love you." and she respond back. ?!?!?! I flipped and almost left her but she said shed never talk to him again and I told her that wasn't the answer but I took it slow being close to her after that pain. 

Incident #2. 
Years down the road no with no more incidents she met this guy at work. She started texting him on a regular basis but no more than she texted me. I sat by and let it happen (shes aloud to have guy friends, basic human right ya know?) Well, one day I get an email from this guys very angry GF. In the email she tells me she caught text of her BF asking my fiance to spend the night at his house and they could have fun. My fiance responded "ok." When I confronted my fiance about this she said yes, she had said that but as a joke. She works with a lot of guys and the joking as we all know in the work environment can get...to dirty jokes. I was once again hurt close enough to end us. I told her to go stay with her parents for a few days I didn't want to see her. I reviewed the email more and found 1 flaw in it. This girl said that my fiance nagged on her BF on when the special night would be. This characteristic would be unlike my fiance. She's very quiet and not a naggy person...Second, this all came from a girl I didn't know. I found everything to be very hurtful and I feel my fiance should have came to me immediately and said look what he said I'm going along with it and its nothing and I want you to know that. Once again my Fiance promised on her own never to talk to him again and didn't. My fiance continued to get pestered by her Ex friends GF in emails saying what my GF did is causing her nightmares about her relationship. We moved on and I was able to forgive her and build trust in her again.

(BTW the guy she texted and worked with quit the job immediately after this went down.)

Incident #3.
Month or two ago and 7 months down the road since incident 2 she met another guy she worked with. They once again exchange #'s and text but not all the time, maybe 3 times a day. One night my fiance and I got in a argument and she decided to go to her parents for the night to help her younger sis with school work. I was a little upset because we have serious issues on our hands that night and she was going to go and spend the night there too. Its not like we could have gone out for coffee after-wards to discuss our problem. Well we talked a little over text and at about 10 it went silent from her and I thought she was helping her sister. At 11:30 and not a word from her I thought something was seriously wrong. I called her to make sure she was ok and her cell went straight to voice-mail. INSTANT RED FLAG. In the years we were together her phone had never been off. I jumped in the car and drove over to make sure she was ok. I turn onto her parents street and there's a black car in the driveway that was completely rogue to all of their cars, still not a problem. I pull up and shes on the porch talking to a guy. It was relieving to know she was ok but angering for her hiding/not communicating to me about this. I asked her why her phone was off and she said it died and was on the charger inside, which was 100% factful. Me and her went on a walk and she said that she was thinking about leaving me for no appearant reasons other than she wasn't happy and she didn't know why. It was somewhat that we were going through a rough patch but at the same time she was just sad. I asked who the guy was and she said its my friend from work. I asked why she hadn't told me he was coming over and why she had to make an excuse to help her sister with homework. She tells me she as helping out with her sis's homework and I know she was, they did this on a regular basis and that her friend from work has stopped by unexpectedly when she told him that she was going through rough times with me.  She told me that she and him were talking about us and that it wasn't what I had thought. I once again, said ok and dropped it. It hurt. These incidents have cut me deeper than any other thing ever in any of my relationships. 

A few days later she told me that she was at work and she was crying over her and I fighting and the same guy I met that night came up to her and hugged her and kissed her on the top of the head and that I should know that. I was calm, and I knew she couldn't have prevented him from doing that and that its not her fault I wont get mad at her for it. After another week of playing this emotional roller coaster and all these problems affecting me so badly I was laid off at work and she was still on the fence about us, I left her. 

During the previous month that we have been apart this guy she is friends (the one from the night at her parents) with told her he liked her and then ANOTHER guy started making moves saying her liked her. She told me she told them both she doesn't want to date at the moment. Yet she didn't tell them that her and I are trying to work through our problems and pick up were we left off because she was un-aware how I felt about fixing us weeks previous to now. At this point its compromising our relationship ever since the one guy kissed her. 

Some background on her though, she has never cheated on any previous BF's and she tells me all the time I'm her everything. We had a great life and got along perfectly but like every relationship had our times. She doesn't make many girl friends and I think has only had maybe 12 girls who are her friend in her entire life and probably 9 guy friends. 

In my opinion having guy friends are fine. Be honest about them, and don't do anything stupid like go out somewhere at late hours of the night, lol. Second when they start compromising the most important relationship in your life they are no longer your friend. At that point a friend wouldn't compromise something important to you, That in my head screams I want in your pants and don't care about anyone else. I would expect my significant other to realize this and not let it compromise us yet she has, and this bugs me. Its killing me because I want to trust her again, but, this is so hard after all this.


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## Maroson (May 21, 2010)

lol its sooo long. sorry...


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## Sydni (May 1, 2010)

Ok, I read it all  And I understand where your wife is coming from bc I HATE being friends with most girls... just to much gossip and drama.. I have a ton of guy friends though so maybe I can give it to you from her perspective.. First instance... Guy friends do that,especially when their GIRL friend is only dating and the tie between her and her guy isn't tight yet. When me and my husband were dating I had several guy friends with lots of pictures where their arms were around my waste or shoulder. It wasn't a big deal... The 2nd instance...Yeah, I can understand joking around with a guy friend. Guy friends are pervish sometimes lol and sometimes the only way you can brush off a weird joke/ come on is just by saying ya haha, you wish or yea.. you know, and just laugh it off. I dont tell my husband about all of these instances bc its silly to get him worked up about it when there is going to be nothing happening between me and this guy. Also, since I enjoy having friends, if I were to tell him everytime a guy friend got pervish... I wouldnt be friends with anyone. Even my girl friends (the few i do have) get pervish with me... probably more often than the guys since it's less threatening. It's just a joke...

3rd instance... That one WAS a little odd but seeing as he showed up at her sister's house... nothing would have happened.. I mean she was at family's house lol and in her defense you two were in a rough patch... it's easy to get a little bit of an emotional tie to a guy friend when your relationship hits rough waters.

Also, Id like to say I say I love you to my guy friends all the time.. It doesnt mean Oh im IN love with you. It just means, more like I love as a brother. On top of all of this, she has decided on her own to not see or talk to any of these guys ever again... That was VERY compromising on her end. She was extremely good friends with at least the guy from instance #1... If i were to say that as a gesture for my husband and he actually said ok Id resent him big time. I mean my guy friends are like a family to me.. a bunch of brothers..

It seems like you over react alot when it comes to guy firnds. I can see why, since there IS a fine line when it comes to guys as friends. What you need to do is sit down with her (it seems you two are pretty good at communicating and very understanding of each other for the most part) and you guys need to draw up so opposite sex guide lines.. me and my husband had to do it.. we are very flexible about it but its there. Its good for you both to know what lines cant be crossed. That way she isnt giving up friends and you cant get mad at her unless she actually breaks a rule..

Try things like... If you have a guy friend that you text on a regular basis then you have to invitehim out with us so I can meet him (meeting a girls companion puts the other guy in his place, letting him SEE that she is taken helps fend off unwanted advances) or you could set a rule saying no I Love you's (if those words bother u) maybe only text I lurv u or i luv u, that way its not so personal... You need to set up rules depending on what you guys think... She seems very trustworthy to me. It doesnt seem like she is trying to get with other guys or else she would have done that when you left her...

Honestly to be frank you seem a little controlling.. maybe you should loosen your reigns on her. Treat her as an equal that you trust instead of a guardian... I believe you have turned these situations from a mole hill into a mountain so to speak... You need to work on your jealousy issues... 

Jealousy stems from a root desire.. find out what it really is that your jealous about... is it aht they have a good communication base with her? Try making that good communication base with you guys and then you wont get jealous when she has that with her friends.. if its bc she texts them more than you... tell her in a polite way and maybe let her know youd like her to text you some more, just random love notes, like text i love you while she is sitting in the same room... that might make u less jealous when a guy friend texts... Try these things out... and let us now how it turns out..
Hope I helped some


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## Sydni (May 1, 2010)

oops, just realized i called her your wife at the beginning of that. I meant fiance, sorry.


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## Maroson (May 21, 2010)

You have some amazing advice. My fiance and I both agree.


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## jitterbug (Feb 13, 2010)

I personally don't think you're overreacting.

I'm not against opposite-sex friendships, but I think that very firm boundaries need to be in place, if either party is in a committed relationship.

Incident #1--what bothered me about that was the fact that you were never invited to join in on their outings..


(I've been in that position before , and you end up feeling like the kid who didn't get picked for the baseball team---you're left behind on the sidelines---it's not a good feeling)

I have to wonder why your fiancee excluded you from hanging with her and her friends--on a regular basis---that would've really bothered me.

Incident#2--I think that text from your F's guy friend was very inappropriate--he knew she was in a relationship, and he had a GF as well. No wonder his GF was upset...And you were justified in being upset.
Once again--were you included in this friendship?

Incident #3--She left you behind again, on an evening when you having a serious discussion-- to go help her sister w/homework? And guy friend #3 just happens to be there, at 11:30 at night?

so basically, she was going to leave you sitting at home, with your evening's discussion unresolved---so she could discuss your intimate issues with another guy?

Did she really think she was going to get _unbiased_ advice about your relationship----from a guy "friend" who admitted that he's interested in her?

I've had the same experience, and when I went through it, it felt like a huge breach of trust.My SO discussed our relationship w/ a female friend who I'd never met---it made me feel like I'd been put on trial when I wasn't there to tell my side of the story.To discover that my innermost private feelings,opinions were shared with a third party _without __my __permission_..........grrrrrr.......


I have to wonder why your F is seeking attention from other guys---does she need the ego boost? Is she naive enough to believe that these guys don't have ulterior motives in contacting her as much as they do? If she's young, it might be naivete---when I was in my 20's I didn't understand that the bulk of my male friends were wanting something more--
and hovering in the periphery, just waiting for a chance to swoop in "to the rescue" if my relationship fell apart.

....when I finally realized what was really going on, I felt really dumb. It was a bitter pill to swallow.It could very well be that your F is in the same place I used to be---just starting to figure out that very few guys actually have innocent intentions towards her.

Bottom-line , opposite sex friends need to be friends to _both_ parties in a relationship, and be supportive of the relationship, or marriage.

I 'm also going to respectfully disagree w/the previous poster
who stated that you made a mountain out of a molehill, and have jealousy issues.........I think that invalidates your feelings. When I really look at the circumstances you described---jealousy is a normal reaction. You were excluded from these friendships with other guys---and your F was not immediately forthcoming about the depth of her attachments to these guys.There's _irrational _jealousy, and then there's rational jealousy. You never demanded that she couldn't have male friends (that would be irrational jealousy), you set a boundary of asking her to always be honest, and never hide anything from you.I think she crossed the line in Incident #3.

Actually I thought you were exceptionally cool about her having male friends---what was it you said --"*basic **human **right*,*ya **know*?"

I don't see that as you being "controlling".Or having "jealousy issues" It's not fair to put all that on you.And you weren't failing to communicate with your F-- she left you sitting there ,twisting in the wind---but she had time to discuss your relationship with another guy?

I would point blank ask her to really,really think about how she would feel----if you walked out of a discussion with her, and met up with a female friend (at 11:30 at night) to talk about her behind her back.I don't think she'd like it very much........(shoe on the other foot)

Ironically,20-odd years later,one of my best friends is a married guy----and I'm in a committed long-term relationship.
It works because the boundaries are firmly in place--and my guy friend has gone out of his way to welcome my SO into the fold---invitations always include_ both of us_ ...

....except for the occasional "guy's night out"---which is fine with me.

If my guy friend had behaved differently towards my SO, I would have ditched the friendship---I won't tolerate anyone in my life being disrespectful to my SO, that's where my first loyalty belongs.

I'd like to recommend that both you &your F read the book _Not Just Friends_ by Shirley Glass. It's a good way to understand boundaries, and to see how easily opposite sex friendships can turn into affairs. $15 bucks well spent. Perhaps if your F learns more about boundaries, and really acknowledges how her actions have left you feeling----you guys can rebuild the trust.

I wish you my best--JB


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## Maroson (May 21, 2010)

JB, I agree with a lot you had to say.

After last night I felt like ok maybe I was wrong. I can be a little of a hot head at times and maybe I was wrong, but the more and more I think about it, its the communication that's the problem. 

And now that the one friend that she was talking to that night in incident #3 is saying he likes her I think that's a breach of friendship. I need a lot of time to think because I need to be fair.

And yes she's is young and she has a lot to learn. Unfortunately she thinks that guys always just wanna be friends...XD hehe. Id feel much more comfortable if she had been honest with me and at a breach of her and I relationship shed at least talk to her guy friend and tell him not to do that or their relationship would not continue.

Your also right about your priorities. I don't feel like our relationship is her #1 priority (when it comes to relationships) a lot, the entire leave in an argument for hours and have me sitting on my hands stewing...happens a lot but I want to give her the space she needs, its just hard on me.

O, you asked me if she included me in incidents #2 relationship. She never went out and did things with this guy to the best of my knowledge so there was nothing I should have been included in? I dont think I was informed about her knew guy friend tho...I think when we were spending time watching tv on the sofa together she was texting a ton and I wondered who and she just said on so and so...thats how I found out about him.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

You've handled things pretty well but together you need to work on setting boundaries.

First and foremost, you should be the first person with whom she discusses any relationship issues, and then a therapist. She probably should not be telling guy friends about those issues, b/c revealing deep feelings and problems builds intimacy and these guys may be responding to that. 

Second, in addition to the advice above on boundaries and managing opposite sex friends, she must be very clear so her behavior says to male friends that it is just friendship and will never be anything more. She either enjoys the male attention (which needs to stop) or, perhaps, she's simply not attracted to these guys and does not see why they cannot be friends. She should monitor herself and never have a close friendship with a guy to whom she is attracted--that would never be a true friendship. Women are not as easily sexually attracted as men are, generally speaking, so she may not realize that when she puts a guy in the "friends zone," HE doesn't realize there is no hope of ever getting out. Guys will too often befriend a girl in hopes of something more growing, but it rarely works that way for a woman, b/c our guy friends are the ones we cannot imagine having sex with. So, if she is doing that, you are "safe" on her end. Talk about it, and help her realize that guys don't see all girl "friends" as she sees guy friends. Maybe that will help too.


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## Maroson (May 21, 2010)

I have told her that. I have told her that majority of guys don't want to be just friends. 

I think shes looking for the attention. But I cant say for sure.

Should anything that happened be a relationship end-er? I dont know if im right in not feeling trustworthy in her. I dont know if Ill trust her ever again...shed have to show me she has changed a lot.


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## roorage (May 22, 2010)

yes, i'm young and stupid at times, but i don't think every guy just wants to be friends. i'm not that dumb.


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## jitterbug (Feb 13, 2010)

Maroson---

I really think you need to use the shoe on the other foot analogy.

Would your F like it if you were texting back and forth with a female friend, that she didn't know about---

---especially when you were sitting right next to her?During what should be your quality time together?It's like ; you're there, but not fully, because your attention is on the person you're conversing with via text.

How would she feel if she found the other woman had a thing for you, and you'd been discussing your relationship issues with her?

I do see both points of view here, and I'm not trying to bash on your F too much, but I don't think she's considering how her actions make you feel.A big part of love, IMO, is being able to walk in other person's shoes, and imagine what things look like through their eyes.

I can see where she doesn't want you to dictate to her who she can or can't be friends with ( I wouldn't stand for that either)-----but you are perfectly within your rights to want to be kept in the loop about her friendships. 

She has failed to be forthcoming, as you mentioned in the incidents you listed, so now the trust between you has been damaged. It can be rebuilt---but only with 100% willingness to be *voluntarily* transparent from her---and an equal commitment to the relationship.

It sounds like you both have invested a lot of years in each other, which leads me to believe that there is a strong love on both sides.This can be fixed, if it's what you both want.


Sister359 was right on the money about discussing R issues with opposite sex friends. I kinda hinted at that ,too.

It's best to discuss those issues solely between the two of you, or seek out a therapist , or a *neutral* third party. (or an anonymous forum...) It's the only way you can be sure that advice doesn't have a vested interest in the outcome.

I mentioned that my SO discussed our issues with a female friend---turns out she had her sights set on him---so of course, she was coyly planting suggestions that "I just didn't understand him......" *read **subtext *( not like _I_ understand you...") etc., ad naseum.

Basically she was trying to undermine his opinion of our R, then she would be there to "come to the rescue" when it fell apart. (barf) Pure sabotage---I figured it out as soon as I met her and observed her demeanor towards me.( lots of sideways looks and thinly veiled barbed comments--when my SO was out of earshot)---------It very nearly broke us up.


Speaking of dealbreakers--Maroson, you asked if any of the incidents should be a relationship -ender.

That's entirely up to you, and what your boundaries are. In your shoes---#3 probably would've had me packing his bags.
That's because I've been through it.When my SO was hanging out with his female friend,and talking about our R with her---

his open communication with me dropped off almost entirely.
I knew he had stuff on his mind, but he wouldn't share---he left me in the dark, wondering what was wrong, what I did wrong,what's he thinking, what's he feeling etc....I got excuses---too tired to talk right now---I had a bad day,etc.

I tried to be patient, compassionate,and not push him too hard- but it suddenly felt like there was a wall between us.
My loving guy had been replaced by this zombie look-a-like with nothing to say. We'd sit on the couch together and it was like he wasn't fully there-he was distracted, his mind was elsewhere.
(sound familiar?)

So, when I found out that he'd been pouring his heart out to this "friend"--but leaving me in the dark--it felt like a slap in the face. Or a slap in the heart. Especially since I tried to be so cool and understanding.

Yep, knowing what I know now, #3 would be a dealbreaker for me---cuz I've already been through it. And I will never let anyone treat me that way again.

But you need to choose what's right for you. I'll leave you with a quote:

"_We teach others how to treat us............"_


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## Maroson (May 21, 2010)

Well, we are states apart ATM and have been trying to fix this. I moved back home to be with my family.

My dad is getting old and hes not super old but he has heart problems so he doesn't have the convenience of a regular life span.

Well I was looking through pics she had posted on her facebook today just now and I saw no engagement ring on her hand anymore. I asked her whether she still wore it and she said yes. I then was like no you don't stop lying. And minutes later she sends my phone a pic of her wearing it. I said ok you could have just put it on. She has multiple pics of not wearing it. 

I have to be the most heart broken guy to still be talking to her. I must be super naive at this point if I were to continue with her right? I have no idea what to say or think anymore. 

Shes not committed to me at all, is what I feel like.


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## jitterbug (Feb 13, 2010)

I'm going to respond with another quote:

_"Never make someone a priority......

............who sees you as an option."_


I didn't realize you you had a LDR happening at this time.
It definitely makes it harder to communicate.

I don't know that continuing to talk to her makes you..naive, necessarily. You love her, and you're trying to make it work.
If it doesn't work out , you can at least walk away knowing that you gave it your best..(not much comfort in the circumstances,I know, but it's something)

If she's maintaining communication as well, if it's not just you initiating contact, then it could be that she hasn't given up.
Or she's liking the attention, it could go either way........

Bottom-line, there needs to be sincere, open honest communication about expectations, boundaries, the importance of honesty, etc. if you wish to have a fulfilling relationship.

And she needs to own her actions, and rebuild the trust.


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## Maroson (May 21, 2010)

I just talked to her again about it and she came out and said

"my mother and sister were giving me s*** about wearing it so I took it off for one night."

#1 that hurts me because it shouldn't matter what they think. 
#2 Why not be honest in the first place, I would have been more understanding and hadn't felt like now shes hiding something.


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## Maroson (May 21, 2010)

An update on incident #3...I have been blind sided by this one. 

I asked my F to talk to the guy who had kissed her and when she did he got pissed for her saying he shouldn't kiss her.

He said hes pissed I keep stressing her out. 

Im all confused why he'd get pissed and I dont want him to stop being her friend. I just wanted some boundaries setup.

Do you think my F sent him wrong signals JB when she confided in him?

Im so confused. I was never good with friendships myself. I only have a handful of friends.


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## jitterbug (Feb 13, 2010)

Good Morning Maroson--

Yep--this update adds a new layer.

To answer your question, yes ; she absolutely sent the wrong signals by confiding in him.

When a person confides in an opposite sex friend about their R issues, it creates a very powerful,"Nobody Else Understands Me Like You Do....." dynamic.

If the OSF (opposite sex friend) has a hidden agenda, they're going to view that as a foot in the door.If the OSF is of the mate-poaching variety they will use any information divulged as a way to chisel away at the primary R. They'll learn what upsets their "friend" and go out of their way to demonstrate the opposite--("well _I _would never say that to you........')
They'll learn which buttons to push. They'll steer conversations, and plant suggestions.

Essentially they're campaigning against you--to sway your partner into voting for them.It's incredibly manipulative.

If this happens at a time when the primary R is having issues, it can be the kiss of death---depending on the individuals involved.A strong person with a well-defined sense of self won't be easily swayed by negative propaganda----but a person without good boundaries, or a person who seeks external validation, or both---------

---can be brainwashed by a smooth talker.That's what happened in my scenario...my SO's female friend spoon-fed him everything she thought he wanted to hear---and for awhile, he was buying into it.

Do you see how attractive , and seductive that can be? Here's this "friend" who tells you how wonderful you are , behaves like the sun rises and sets on you, thinks you can do no wrong--_and *always* __takes your side when you complain about your SO._

Who doesn't want to be treated like that? 

The hidden hook, is ---it's an illusion. It's not grounded in reality. It's romantic wishful thinking. There _*is no love*_ until the masks come off, the cards are face up on the table, the "warts" are no longer hidden. Until monotony and familiarity has rooted in. _That_'_s _when you know it's _real __love_.


Yep, by confiding in this OSF, your F essentially provided him with a how-to manual for driving a wedge between the two of you.

Him being pissed at you for "stressing her out" is a prime example of manipulative mate poaching. 

But he's not the main issue---your F is. She's allowing this dynamic to happen. And she might be getting an ego boost from having two guys vying for her attention. 

...at the expense of _your feelings_ and peace of mind.
He's trying to play you and F against each other-

----and she's doing the exact same with you and this "friend".
If the two of you are competing with each other---you're both double-stepping, and jumping through hoops to gain her approval.How fun! (for her......)

Do a Google search on Karpman's Drama Triangle. It may be an eye-opener.

here's a link, I found a very comprehensive description of triangle dynamics.

Drama Triangle: The Three Faces of Victim by Lynne Forrest


As far as your statement about not being good with friendships--I don't know if you're basing that on the number of friends you have-------if you really think about it, quality is much more important than quantity, when it comes to friendships.

I'd also recommend doing a Google search, and reading some articles about emotional affairs, because I think that's what's happening in your situation.

You can't control your F's actions----you can only control your own behavior. You can only set boundaries as to what you will or will not accept from her.If she crosses those boundaries, she is showing a fundamental disrespect for your peace of mind.At the same time, if you continue to allow her to cross your boundaries, with no consequences for her actions-she won't take you seriously, and she'll start to lose respect for you.

Think real hard about what _you _want in a marriage, or relationship. Do _you _want endless worry? How important is peace of mind to you? Is your F going to provide that? Tough questions, I know, but they need to be considered.

Gotta sign off for now, my dance card is full for the rest of the day.Please take some time for self-examination, and consider reading the material I suggested.....knowledge is power.


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## Maroson (May 21, 2010)

I dont know...I can see signs of an emotional affair based on:

Emotional Affairs 101

and I wondered why our sex life dropped off. 

It went from 2 times a week too I don't really want to more than 1-2 a month. When it did happen I was the one to start it so it was never her attraction to me. <---killed my self esteem and hurt me. That being said she has never been very active that way either. I was her first and she never showed much interest in it ever. 

Second, ya I don't like her talking to other guys and friends in general about us. I'd rather her go to an external source neutral source not one that may have other intentions. 

I cant really tell if she is having an emotional affair. She never hangs out with this guy outside of work and she doesn't talk to him that often. She maybe has 20 texts messages and day and never talking on the phone. Her other friends including myself will get 50-100 texts a day (she loves texting). 

Lastly its not just him she talks to about these intimate details. She will talk to my Mom sometimes and she will talk to her girl-friends. 

With all this said...I am now terrified. Last night we talked about our boundaries with OSR and I said I think its a breach of our relationship to talk to other OS friends about our intimate problems. 

My F told me that shes mad at this guy she told that it was inappropriate to have kissed her on the head. She said she was sick of everyone being made at me because I had reasons to be upset. Pretty much everyone of her friends/family other than one hates me right now...  life isn't fun right now. 

Anyways after our conversation last night about boundaries I felt much better. Now I feel like I have been punched in the stomach. 

mmhmm.... : (


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## Maroson (May 21, 2010)

on the page 5 of this:
Warning Signs of an Emotional Affair

these are all the bullets I feel were happening in the relationship:

You are withdrawing from your spouse.

You are not interested in being intimate with your spouse, either emotionally or sexually.

The amount of time you and your spouse spend together is less. (I told her I was very lonely a lot...but shed still did not spend time with me)

Your friend seems to understand you better than your spouse does. (which is an act on his part till he was in my shoes...)

You are sharing your thoughts, feelings, and problems with your friend instead of your spouse.

I don't know if she buys him gifts...she bought him a coffee once while at work though?

P/S She follows these threads too. So your talking to both of us


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## roorage (May 22, 2010)

i was going to starbucks cause my manager wanted coffee. i asked if anyone else wanted something and two other ppl did. so i got them coffee and they paid me back.


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## Maroson (May 21, 2010)

My F ^ so thats cleared up. As I said I didnt think she was getting him gifts.


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## Maroson (May 21, 2010)

Ugh we have been doing good for a few days know and she did it again! 

She re-established contact with the guy from scenario #1.

She said she wouldn't talk to him again and I told her not to do that but to have more distance. 

While they were friends they would always talk...always. I took my F on a vacation to Cancun as a romantic get away. Guess who she texted. 

I feel threatened because I dont want to compete with him for time with her and at the same time I know he disrespect our relationship and that is not how a friend should be. 

Secondly I had to ask My fiance to talk to the guy from #3 about him kissing her. should that bug me? i wish she had done it on her own. to show me and her some respect. He obviously doesnt respect her and I either. 

IDK i feel shes too close to her guy friends.


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

I'll read through the rest of the thread in a minute and give my thoughts, but I just had to let you know I was :rofl: at the part where you hopped in the car and drove over there. Just gave me a funny visual. You said you were worried about her, for what? Did you think something happened or were you worried she was cheating


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## cb45 (Oct 2, 2009)

i wish the best
4 u, but i'm gettin a baaaaad feeling 'bout the way
this may end.


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

ditto


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## cb45 (Oct 2, 2009)

waiting on moroson.

funny he writes in broken english sometimes but uses
not often used words like "disdain". hmmmm. & OS abbreviations
as well.


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## Maroson (May 21, 2010)

What happened last night...and the night before...

The night before last:

We were talking and she starts getting mad because a plane ticket she bought to go she her sister she can no longer use because of other conflicts. She gets angry and starts typing in all caps.

I get a message that says something like:

I"M SO ANGRY THAT THIS HAPPENED WHAT A WASTE OF MONEY!

Then one second later sorry I didn't mean to yell I hit caps lock on accident I wasnt loosing my temper with you. 

And I'm like...your lying. Caps lock does not do secondary function on keys like " instead it will do '.

She admits she lied...lol...

I was like...so what the hell?! if you cant tell me the truth about getting upset which I would understand completely, when it come to a bigger thing how could you ever tell me the truth? So she broke my trust over something SO small...again...So my walls were back up all day and we spoke about it all day yesterday. 

So I get home from work last night and she has barely text me all night (that's not like her)...

I say "what ya up to?"

She says..."watching tv with the family"

I say "O cool what are you watching?"

she responds "Nvm, Im sorry Im reading a book on my bed."

Hmmm?!

I then say "Alright I'm going to to take a nap I'm exhausted."

I wake up with no texts (which after a few hours she usually says something to me) I log onto FB to check if shes on or has talked on that...nope...not at all today...which is another thing that's like clockwork for her as long as she is near her PC. Im thinking super suspicious at this point. 

I then text her saying "Hun send me a pic of my cutie reading her book! I miss ya!"

I get a response "No...I'm tired I am going to go to bed." 

I say, "Please I miss ya! or at least call me?"

She says "No Ill talk to you tomorrow."

At this point I say "Your not at home, I can tell your not by your responses that you'd normally oblige." 

She says "Im at home and going to sleep"

I respond "You broke my trust about something sooo small yesterday and now your acting like this today?! Your lying and I want to know whats going on? please? I really would like a pic to prove your story now."

She responds "Just trust me please???" 

I say "No."

She calls me now and shes like "I swear I'm at home, please just trust me, I want you to trust me."

I say "after you broke my trust over something so stupid yesterday why should I trust you?!"

Then I hear noises in the background and her parents house is super quiet at this hour everyone is asleep.

I call her out on it. i say "well I am hearing noises in the background, and your house is super quiet at this hour. So, I caught you in a lie. Tell me where you are.

I get "Fine im over at this guys(incident #3 guy) house painting his bedroom, Im leaving after we get this second coat up."

I say "Thanks for the truth, We're done. Don't ever contact me again." 

So I have to end it. Im sick of the lies. I cant trust her ever again. I swear she is sadistic at this point and just likes to see people bleed. 

I dont understand how she tried so hard with me to fix everything and then pulled this? She was making me so happy by fixing problems showing me she cared. So hurt and so angry again.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It sounds to me like she has little to no reason to WANT to be serious or monagomous with you. What is she getting out of your relationship? You TELL her what she can and can't do. You act out of jealousy and insecurity. You interrogate her when she doesn't do things the way you want...

I'm not telling you how you should be doing things, but I AM telling you that, from her perspective...you don't seem to be much fun.


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## Maroson (May 21, 2010)

Ive never been this way with any1 but her. And the only reason i stayed is she would beg me to stay and that she wouldnt lie again. So really...I have every right to not trust her. Its not insecurity.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It doesn't matter if it's insecurity or not. You have become unpleasant to spend time with. Stop being unpleasant. 

We avoid that which we don't enjoy, and seek out that which we DO enjoy.

Become what she enjoys.


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## Maroson (May 21, 2010)

No as i said i gave her more than enough chances. And I have every right to act how i act. This isnt rip on me at this point. 

If she hadnt have been dishonest i would have always trusted her and never became who I am right now. 

At this point even her friends are telling me to run for the hills and they have no idea what shes thinking.

Anyways I really dont care what you think I should do because I know why I act the way I do. Im very analytical and dont ever speak without a reason.

BTW...how does it make any sense not to listen to my instincts when i can tell shes lying? How should i not question her? if you can honestly say if your SO was screwing around on you and you just didnt confront them on it I think thats naive.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

When did I say not to confront her? Stopping cheating is totally different from what I'm talking about, which is the other side of the problem - she is seeking out someone ELSE to meet her Emotional Needs, not YOU.

I said that you need to be the person she WANTS to be with. Obviously, you aren't. 

If you want to keep her, you would have to find out what she wants, and see if you want to be that person.


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## Maroson (May 21, 2010)

Well she never communicates, anyways im done with her i tried to figure out what she wants and I did meet what she wanted emotionally. She wasnt cheating and I know that. She just decides to lie...and as you saw she'll lie about anything.


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

Good for you. If her needs weren't being met she should tell you instead of running around with other guys. That's unacceptable. And she may just have been the type that can't sit still anyway. There's no point in trying to fix things with someone who can't even tell you the truth. She was dead wrong and you did the right thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maroson (May 21, 2010)

Well now 24 hours later im in the worst place I have felt in a while. I know she did me wrong but she never cheated on me last night she is just afraid to tell me. 

Her mom is verbally abusive and screamed at her kids from the day they could understand english. So instead of confrontation she hides...and I know thats her... 

Shes been crying at work all day and im sure every1 there thinks im a f*** head. 

But here's something about me...I feel so emotionally dead about every1. 

My grandpa died...affected me for an hour. 

When a family member gets sick...really sick...im there for them but cant feel anything. 

Its hard to feel happy, its hard to feel sad, it hard to feel guilt...

My entire life I have been traumatized by this and when I have loved someone I have always loved someone for their characteristics not the way they made me feel. 

For those of you who have seen the show Dexter on showtime...Im identical...except for the killing. 

It sucks because I met someone that matched me perfectly...we got along and everything was great...best relationship I could have had my entire life...but when she asked me to marry her I got sick...stressed...threw up all the time...stopped eating...and I didnt give her an answer because I wasnt sure if i could be with someone my whole life who didnt make me happy or was not more special than any1 else i knew? Sure i loved her for being a good person but I never had an emotional tie and never have with any1. I went to counseling to see why I felt no emotions for her nor any previous SO's...that did me no good. I left her and never looked back...never was sad...never was relieved other than the fact that i was no longer throwing up. 

When I'm with or have my F in my life...I feel...emotional...she can make me feel happiness, sadness(obviously), worry, and what i think was love not only a strategic reason but a excited feeling every-time i saw her...This sounds pretty effed probably but Ill never know whats wrong with me other than I pick things to do to get me by and really have no other wants...

I dont know what to do...she has sent me and email basically saying how terrible she feels and how she wishes we never met so that I was never hurt by her...But it all seems like an act at this point...Im so F***** mentally...


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

I think you are being too hard on yourself. 

The fact that your past gf's proposal made you vomit is pretty strong evidence that you have feelings, but you just sublimate them very well! 

Get back to counseling. Figure out why you are so afraid to feel your emotions--probably you are afraid of losing control/being overwhelmed by them. (Just an arm-chair shrink's guess, of course!) 

I'm so sorry you are feeling so badly now--yet it is more evidence you do have feelings. And she did not "make" you feel one way or another; it is what you THOUGHT about her that aroused feelings. Was it "Wow, she's pretty cool" and so you felt happy? Or maybe, "I cannot believe this beautiful girl likes me," and then you felt special and good about yourself, so you wanted her close by (literally and/or figuratively)? the first is great; the 2nd suggests you have some self-esteem issues. BUT, either way, she is not "making" you feel one way or another.

I think you did a pretty good job recognizing that she was behaving inappropriately. It is also very appropriate to say, "I won't tolerate this." BUT, the next step is to say, "What can I do to help when you feel you need attention? I'll be happy to provide it so you do not have to seek it from others." And, of course, you must take the response to such a question quite seriously. If she wants you to notice her more, and you agree to do it, you make a point of doing it (even if you have to set up reminders on your e-calendar to do so!) If she wants you to drop everything when she says, "I need attention!" you discuss whether or not you can do that. This is all moot now, since you have broken things off. But you are in a great position to grow from this and to learn things that will help build a much stronger marriage in your future. Good luck!


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## Maroson (May 21, 2010)

See this is what you guys dont understand... or maybe im niave...she doesnt go to him for attention...she goes to him as a friend. He asked her...and she agreed because she is the type of person who would give her life to save a stranger. But at the same times when she's friends with the person too and doesn't talk to me about her plans with them I become angry/suspicious/and hurt....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Look up toxic shame.


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## Maroson (May 21, 2010)

its not toxic shame...never have the types of dreams discussed or have never been truly hurt by anyone...Except for my current F.

I was like this since the day i knew what i was thinking.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Then look up something more serious.

Or go to counseling to find out where your dissociation comes from.


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## Maroson (May 21, 2010)

could be this...
Alexithymia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But idk this is stupid to talk about on here? lol?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The point is, if you've spent your whole life that numb - and I know exactly the feeling, as I've been dealing with toxic shame, and the numbness that comes with it, for as long as *I* can remember - then you owe it to yourself AND the loved ones in your life to find out WHY, and hopefully get help for it.

And I don't know what you're talking about, regarding dreams. The books I've read about toxic shame say nothing about dreams. They DO talk about seemingly perfectly normal families wherein you develop patterns of self-protection, including the numbness you describe. My family was not bad, not dysfunctional for the most part; the issues that brought on my toxic shame were very subtle and imperceptible - until you see the cumulative effect, on me.


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