# Normalcy



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Post divorce I am coming to find out that what was happening in my marriage was not "normal". I have come to understand, that for most of us, whatever is/was going on is typically accepted as normal. I was married for 24 years. So for 24 years what happened in my marriage became my norm. I didn't realize it at that time, but it was this acceptance that had made me so unhappy. 
Now as I go out into this new unexplored world of being a middle aged single guy, meeting lots of other divorced men and women, I am discovering that what I had was not normal. In fact what I am finding out, is that there really is no normal. Reality is not normal or unnormal, but is either acceptable or not.
I was convinced, that vanilla duty sex was the best that could be expected, because that was all I knew. I was convinced that being a walking ATM was my lot in life, because that was all I knew. I was convinced that ceding my happiness to another was expected, because that was all I knew.
All of that made me very unhappy. I just was waiting to die. When it ended I wanted to die, I was devastated because everything I thought I knew was destroyed before my eyes. All of the things I had accepted were no longer there to be accepted.
Now I am finding out that there are women (lots of them it seems) that seek out and enjoy sex. That sex is not considered a duty, but rather a celebration of life. That there are women, who truly do not want to taken care of. Women who take pride in their independence and real self sufficiency. I understand that I am responsible for my own happiness. And truly for the first time in my life, I am happy by my own actions and not dependent on others.
I know I have said this before, but I truly mean it - this is probably no surprise to some of you, but to me these are revelations and epiphanies.


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## plomito (Apr 7, 2015)

Is amazing isn't it? I look back at all the things i had to endure and ask myself, why didn't I get out sooner? What in the world was I thinking? But the way I see it, all that made me stronger and never again I will take crap from any female.. After 19 years of marriage, now is my time to live

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Congrats, normal is subjective. Look no further than culture and how alien it feels to be in a different country. Do the Fisty method and question yourself and ask yourself why and how does this make me feel.

I was reading a story on another forum where the OP discovered she was not happy being married and loved the serial dating life, I have a friend that feels the same way, I know of people happily married for several decades and never lost that in-love feeling. They act like teenagers even though middle-aged. My aunt has a bf she only sees on the weekend. I ran across a couple where the husband is gay but is in-love with his wife but they do not have sex together and have an open marriage to give each other what they need sexually outside the marriage.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Good for you Ynot. I agree completely with your observation. All of this is a process and everyone is moving along at their own speed. I think that the less attached you are to a life partner the more choices you end up with on how you want to live your life, so single life really works well for self discovery. This is especially true for people that had a less than optimal marriage and had to sacrifice parts of themselves for their spouse. Enjoy the ride and wherever it takes you, my friend.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

It brings to mind the "Invisible Fence" that dog owners bury in their yard. 

The dogs wear a high-pitch emitting noise collar. When the dog gets near the energized underground transmitter [cable] it "lights up" the collar; the noise forcing the dog backwards.

When a man gets married, he gladly puts on a similar collar. What he does not realize is the batteries in the collar go dead after the honeymoon period. Any further high-pitched noise [after that] then commences from DW.

Some men test and re-test the collar. Some men do not.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

SunCMars said:


> It brings to mind the "Invisible Fence" that dog owners bury in their yard.
> 
> The dogs wear a high-pitch emitting noise collar. When the dog gets near the energized underground transmitter [cable] it "lights up" the collar; the noise forcing the dog backwards.
> 
> ...


Funny. We had two dogs. A Golden Retriever that was beautiful but dumber than dirt and a mutt that was as smart as a whip. I put up an invisible fence. The golden would hear the beep and would stop and go no further. The mutt would gather his steam, bolt thru the fence, yelping all the way, go out and party for a day or so and then come back dragging some dead creature it killed. In the meantime, the golden would pretty much kill any plants (especially flowers) within the fenced area.
So I decided to enclose an area with a real physical fence to contain both of them. I used my side yard, which was bigger than most city lots (about 50x100) and put up a woven wire fence. I decided I would keep it mowed but didn't bother planting anything else. So far so good - for about a week!
The golden would go along the fence looking for one weak weld. She would then work the wires with her nose until all the welds around it failed and there would be a hole big enough for her to go thru. She would then wander around the rest of the yard (3+acres) killing whatever flowers were there. In the meantime the mutt refused to go thru the same gaping hole in the fence despite the fact that it was way more than big enough for him to get thru.
I finally just gave up. The golden was old and wasn't going to last much longer anyways. I didn't plant many more flowers, but I also didn't bury any more ground hogs, rabbits, squirrels or occasional deer or deer part the mutt dragged home from his adventures.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Clarity. 

It is an amazing thing isn't it?


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## EunuchMonk (Jan 3, 2016)

Mr.Fisty said:


> Congrats, normal is subjective.


QFT

@Ynot
Glad you had this epiphany. Many of us are unable to get out of our own heads. We live in a bubble of our own making. We think our experiences, thoughts, relationships are normative.

“...people live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true... that is how they define reality. But what does it mean to be correct or true? Merely vague concepts... their reality may all be an illusion.” ― Uchiha Itachi (from the Japanese comic book, _Naruto_, chapter 385)


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

Ynot said:


> In fact what I am finding out, is that there really is no normal. Reality is not normal or unnormal, but is either acceptable or not.


I like this part of your post the best and of course I completely agree with it. We all have our dealbreakers, and we draw our line in the sand in very different places. As we gain more experience, and self confidence, that line gets moved forward, sometimes by quite a distance. 



SunCMars said:


> It brings to mind the "Invisible Fence" that dog owners bury in their yard.
> 
> The dogs wear a high-pitch emitting noise collar. When the dog gets near the energized underground transmitter [cable] it "lights up" the collar; the noise forcing the dog backwards.


That's a completely inaccurate description of how an electric fence works. For starters -and anyone who reads this can easily nod their head without knowing a thing about electric fences- "noise cannot force a dog backwards".


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

browser said:


> That's a completely inaccurate description of how an electric fence works. For starters -and anyone who reads this can easily nod their head without knowing a thing about electric fences- "noise cannot force a dog backwards".


*nodding*

The e-fences I have seen all use shock at various levels to keep the animal contained. Which, for some dogs, is useless. 

As they approach the e-fence, the collar sends a small electric current. The current, and discomfort, increase as the animal gets closer to the fence. However, those collars have a range and if the dog just runs through, it's only uncomfortable for moments before the dog has exceeded the range and is then totally lose.

Also, e-fences can actually teach a dog NOT to come back. If the dog runs passed the range of the collar and then decides to return, the collar will send current when the dog is back in range and will shock the dog for coming back as well as for leaving.

@Ynot I have questions!

What was your parents relationship like? Were they (either together or in other marriages) in a happy and affectionate relationship? Did you have other sexual relationships before with partners who were into sex with you? I just don't understand how people like yourself end up thinking it's normal to be in a duty sex when required businesslike marriage. Did you have no life experience and/or observations that showed you loving and passionate long term relationships?


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> @Ynot I have questions!
> 
> What was your parents relationship like? Were they (either together or in other marriages) in a happy and affectionate relationship? Did you have other sexual relationships before with partners who were into sex with you? I just don't understand how people like yourself end up thinking it's normal to be in a duty sex when required businesslike marriage. Did you have no life experience and/or observations that showed you loving and passionate long term relationships?


My mother died when I was between the 8th grade and freshman year of HS. She had been sick for the prior three years. before that i was too young to have even paid attention to what a "normal' family was. My dad dove into the bottle after that. I lived my teen age years as pretty much a feral creature. My dad later married and went on to live a fairly normal life. He and my step mother fought a lot but I was on my own by this point.

The reality was that I never really had any positive male role models growing up. At the time I should have been learning about relationships, dating, and women - I wasn't. In many ways women were a mystery to me and I often placed them pedestals, I know I did that with my ex. Sex was a mystery to me as well, even before I met my ex. I had had several GFs, most typically because I felt if they accepted me, then that was the best I could hope for. I never felt worthy enough.
When I met my wife I was nearing 30, She had a son from a previous marriage. She was interested in me and I didn't want to be alone any longer. It was largely the "perfect" co-dependency relationship. I did whatever to keep the relationship going because I was afraid of being lonely
Now I have had the opportunity to reflect and to grow. I realize I have value. I have worth. I have a successful business. I am a good looking man but most of all I am not afraid to be alone anymore. 
I had had the mindset of scarcity and I was afraid to lose the "one", now I realize that there isn't "one" in fact there are many and the best thing of all is that I get my pick of as few or as many as want.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Ynot said:


> My mother died when I was between the 8th grade and freshman year of HS. She had been sick for the prior three years. before that i was too young to have even paid attention to what a "normal' family was. My dad dove into the bottle after that. I lived my teen age years as pretty much a feral creature. My dad later married and went on to live a fairly normal life. He and my step mother fought a lot but I was on my own by this point.
> 
> The reality was that I never really had any positive male role models growing up. At the time I should have been learning about relationships, dating, and women - I wasn't. In many ways women were a mystery to me and I often placed them pedestals, I know I did that with my ex. Sex was a mystery to me as well, even before I met my ex. I had had several GFs, most typically because I felt if they accepted me, then that was the best I could hope for. I never felt worthy enough.
> When I met my wife I was nearing 30, She had a son from a previous marriage. She was interested in me and I didn't want to be alone any longer. It was largely the "perfect" co-dependency relationship. I did whatever to keep the relationship going because I was afraid of being lonely
> ...


I'm happy for you that you've finally realized your own value.

It's kind of funny. You were unhappily married because you were afraid to be alone and I am happily married which has made me afraid to be alone.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> As they approach the e-fence, the collar sends a small electric current. The current, and discomfort, increase as the animal gets closer to the fence.


The newer ones work that way. The Petsafe Yardmax has that feature, it's the one I use. The older or cheaper models only shock the dog as they cross the fence, some of them don't even have the warning tone feature. 

As you may expect the ones that first warn the dog with tone and then increase in severity as the dog approaches the barrier tend to work the best. The better ones even continue to increase AFTER the dog crosses the fence to encourage it to return to the yard.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

browser said:


> The newer ones work that way. The Petsafe Yardmax has that feature, it's the one I use. The older or cheaper models only shock the dog as they cross the fence, some of them don't even have the warning tone feature.
> 
> As you may expect the ones that first warn the dog with tone and then increase in severity as the dog approaches the barrier tend to work the best. The better ones even continue to increase AFTER the dog crosses the fence to encourage it to return to the yard.


That didn't slow down our dog. He blew right thru the field and continued to accelerate until he got out frequency range. Those collars and transmitters can only be so powerful under the law. Once he got beyond that he could meander to his hearts content and the range was fairly limited, only about 50 feet or so.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

Ynot said:


> That didn't slow down our dog. He blew right thru the field and continued to accelerate until he got out frequency range. Those collars and transmitters can only be so powerful under the law. Once he got beyond that he could meander to his hearts content and the range was fairly limited, only about 50 feet or so.


They do have their limitations. 

My dog has never attempted to penetrate the barrier.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

browser said:


> They do have their limitations.
> 
> My dog has never attempted to penetrate the barrier.


Lucky you. I think our dog was one of the most strongest willed animals I have ever run across.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

It's only been in the last few years that I've realized that the dynamic in my house growing up wasn't "normal".

My awakening started when I realized that whenever I'd share stories about my nutjob family people would look at me like I'd grown a second head.

I used to play the filthy, drugged out voicemails one of my nutty sisters would leave me for my coworkers and one of them told me that if she hadn't heard it for herself she would have thought I was either making it up or exaggerating.

It was a real eye opener for her.

I'm not sure my hb knew people like my family existed before he met me. 

Let's just say that her more people learn about my family the more impressive it becomes that I turned out ok.

Yet to me this was normal.

Everything is subject to perspective.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

browser said:


> I like this part of your post the best and of course I completely agree with it. We all have our dealbreakers, and we draw our line in the sand in very different places. As we gain more experience, and self confidence, that line gets moved forward, sometimes by quite a distance.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a completely inaccurate description of how an electric fence works. For starters -and anyone who reads this can easily nod their head without knowing a thing about electric fences- "noise cannot force a dog backwards".


Thank you for "better" explaining E-fences. I only needed the noise generating function to illustrate my mildly sarcastic analogy. Modern models employ both sound and static electricity. I have not taken one apart but I suspect that they have a 9-volt battery, a transformer to boost the voltage to a high level, capacitors to hold the charge and a firing circuit. I do not think the ASPCA would allow the use of pulse oscillators to cripple the collar wearer. 

However, my words are "shocking" enough for most.

I occasionally need shock therapy from a static source as yours to release helpful neurochemicals. These counter the depressive effects of Error Exposure.

Thank you again. Accuracy IS important.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Ynot said:


> That didn't slow down our dog. He blew right thru the field and continued to accelerate until he got out frequency range. Those collars and transmitters can only be so powerful under the law. Once he got beyond that he could meander to his hearts content and the range was fairly limited, only about 50 feet or so.


50ft or so a dog chasing a squirrel/rabbit/cat can cross in seconds.




browser said:


> They do have their limitations.
> 
> My dog has never attempted to penetrate the barrier.


I'm kinda a dog nut. I prefer stubborn breeds and prize intelligence in my pets. What can I say, I like a challenge. Two of my dogs are extremely stubborn and prey driven. Our neighborhood has it's share of rats, rabbits, possums, squirrels, snakes, groundhogs, etc.

Electronic fences that PETA would crucify me for using do NOT phase either of those dogs. They just twitch briefly and keep on going.




lifeistooshort said:


> It's only been in the last few years that I've realized that the dynamic in my house growing up wasn't "normal".
> 
> My awakening started when I realized that whenever I'd share stories about my nutjob family people would look at me like I'd grown a second head.
> 
> ...


I totally understand. I have actually been accused of making sh!t up because I was telling family stories. Doesn't everyone have a few convicts and drug addicts among their cousins? We've all gone out to celebrate our siblings birthdays and had a bar brawl where the cops got called, right? Don't we all have an uncle who thinks reading is bad for women because it gives them ideas? I'm sure a lot of people have an aunt and uncle who were openly in an open marriage rather than divorce. It's all common in big families because there's bound to be a few nuts in a large tree, right?

I realized young that my family wasn't normal through watching friends families. I kind of appreciate my family more because of it. At least they were entertaining and I did learn a lot of life pro tips watching them.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I grew up with WWII combat vets who later became alcoholics. They were happy drunks, having left their fighting days behind them.

Because of their antics, growing up in a nice middle class neighborhood was chaos and embarrassing for my siblings and me..

I followed in their combat boots, leaving the alcohol behind me...............well, 98 proof behind. A few beers are good!


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

SunCMars said:


> I grew up with WWII combat vets who later became alcoholics. They were happy drunks, having left their fighting days behind them.
> Because of their antics, growing up in a nice middle class neighborhood was chaos and embarrassing for my siblings and me..
> 
> I followed in their combat boots, leaving the alcohol behind me...............well, 98 proof behind. A few beers are good!


My family were Vietnam and 1st Gulf War vets. Also mostly happy drunks. Also grew up in middle class neighborhoods. So many stories. So many. Most freakin hilarious to me, but would probably horrify more than a few posters.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

A very keen observation, OP. Have been thinking about this lately. For whatever reason, discussing sex was so uncomfortable for my XH and the longer we were married, the more disinterested he became in sex in general. Divorce was a real eye-opener because I discovered some men actually like sex, embrace it, and are attracted to me as I am, in spite of the fact that I am not 20 and am a bit chubby for today's beauty standards. "Normal" in terms of sex, normal in terms of division of chores,normal in terms of parenting responsibilities; in contrast to you, though, the gap between what he thought was normal and what I thought was normal was what frustrated me, rather than the unhappiness with the accepted "normal" status quo. I felt like he was weird not to want to spend more, or any, time with his kid. He thought I was weird to expect him to spend time with his son when he got home. Lesson learned. Communication in detail is something we can all work on in our future interactions with the opposite sex. "Here's what I want" was something I felt guilty for saying in the past. I felt it was selfish. I have been working on my communication. 

How much of women enjoying sex is because it's "new sex" do you think? I was pondering that too, because after a few months, the sex started to wane with my most recent BF (we broke up for other reasons). Maybe it's just the result of being with one person for so long?


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

joannacroc said:


> A very keen observation, OP. Have been thinking about this lately. For whatever reason, discussing sex was so uncomfortable for my XH and the longer we were married, the more disinterested he became in sex in general. Divorce was a real eye-opener because I discovered some men actually like sex, embrace it, and are attracted to me as I am, in spite of the fact that I am not 20 and am a bit chubby for today's beauty standards. "Normal" in terms of sex, normal in terms of division of chores,normal in terms of parenting responsibilities; in contrast to you, though, the gap between what he thought was normal and what I thought was normal was what frustrated me, rather than the unhappiness with the accepted "normal" status quo. I felt like he was weird not to want to spend more, or any, time with his kid. He thought I was weird to expect him to spend time with his son when he got home. Lesson learned. Communication in detail is something we can all work on in our future interactions with the opposite sex. "Here's what I want" was something I felt guilty for saying in the past. I felt it was selfish. I have been working on my communication.
> 
> How much of women enjoying sex is because it's "new sex" do you think? I was pondering that too, because after a few months, the sex started to wane with my most recent BF (we broke up for other reasons). Maybe it's just the result of being with one person for so long?


I have thought about your last statement as well. I don't really know. I do think that "new sex" is exciting. Neither of you are sure where the boundaries lie so exploring the new frontier is exciting. Even if you have talked about it before, you really don't know exactly what to expect until you experience it. I do think as limits become known and you realize that some things are a no go or things become routine, that the petals fall off the bloom. It may be that so far I have yet to meet someone who has just blown me away outside of the bedroom. I haven't really fallen for anybody yet. It may be that once that happens (falling for someone) the sex will just enhance the relationship rather than define it? Because so far all it has done is define it.

In the meantime I have met several different women, who have fallen for me, or at least claim to have. They have told me they love me, I am not really sure if it is because they expect me to want to hear that or if they really mean it. I think for some women saying they are in love makes having sex alright in their eyes so they say it so they don't think less of themselves. Just another aspect of life that I am learning about.

Right now, I am about learning as much about myself as I can so that I can find what I truly want out of life. I really don't know. I just have to continue exploring until I find out.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

joannacroc said:


> How much of women enjoying sex is because it's "new sex" do you think? I was pondering that too, because after a few months, the sex started to wane with my most recent BF (we broke up for other reasons). Maybe it's just the result of being with one person for so long?


I've been with DH for 16 years. My interest in and enjoyment of sex with him has never waned and I attribute that mutual chemical and psychological compatibility. In other words, we're physically attracted to each other and our individual crazy bits mesh well.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> I've been with DH for 16 years. My interest in and enjoyment of sex with him has never waned and I attribute that mutual chemical and psychological compatibility. In other words, we're physically attracted to each other and our individual crazy bits mesh well.


Some people (the minority it seems) are able to have long mutually beneficial relationships - congrats. But for most people that isn't the case, hence the oft cited 50% divorce rate, high rates of infidelity, cheating and affairs and the number unhappy marriages. 
I am not down playing your situation, just stating that your is the exception and not the rule. I would have loved to have remained married (even unhappily given where my mind was at the time). As I have moved away from my marriage I realize I was laboring under many of the assumptions and expectations of others. Now, I am operating from my own. At this point I do not know if I will ever be able to be happy without the occassional "newness" that comes from a new partner.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Ynot said:


> Now, I am operating from my own. At this point I do not know if I will ever be able to be happy without the occassional "newness" that comes from a new partner.


You've also said that you haven't fallen for anyone, that you've never been really into anyone. Those feelings are physically and emotionally intense and game changing. But, yeah, even the best pairing can get a bit "meh" after a time. In the immortal words of Chris Rock "Gotta make that old pvssy new again!" Avoid ruts and boredom by always continuing to learn and evolve. Explore. Experiment.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> You've also said that you haven't fallen for anyone, that you've never been really into anyone. Those feelings are physically and emotionally intense and game changing. But, yeah, even the best pairing can get a bit "meh" after a time. In the immortal words of Chris Rock "Gotta make that old pvssy new again!" Avoid ruts and boredom by always continuing to learn and evolve. Explore. Experiment.


No argument from me, just recognize that it takes two to tango. My ex wasn't willing, able or capable, so it didn't matter. I had tried to shake things up, do different things, try new things, experiment but always met with resistance, apathy or rejection. Just one other thing for you to remember - in my 16th year I would probably have agreed with you 100% but not so much after 24 years.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Ynot said:


> No argument from me, just recognize that it takes two to tango. My ex wasn't willing, able or capable, so it didn't matter. I had tried to shake things up, do different things, try new things, experiment but always met with resistance, apathy or rejection. Just one other thing for you to remember - in my 16th year I would probably have agreed with you 100% but not so much after 24 years.


Which seems to be a common problem. Incompatibility. Either in terms of sexual tastes and adventurousness or in terms of sexual attraction or both.

Personally, I prefer to have sex and conversations about sexual style, experiences, etc early on. If there are signs of incompatibility or hints of lukewarm attraction of either side, I move on.


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