# Religion



## GAsoccerman

I am not sure, but being a very "non-religious" person more of a Deist then any formal religion.

I find on alot of Marriage forums, including this one, Religion is a big "road Block" for many relationships on various levels.

I am almost dumb founded that this is such a big problem to get over.

I've studied many religions, grew up catholic, studied, jeudism, Muslim, various christian branches (methodist, lutheran, baptist) bhudahism (sp?) All have the basic core and the basic set up of fear to control their members, the more I studied, the more I realized they were basically the same "core principles" that make people "fearful" of GOD.

Many religions, especially the christian including catholics, were developed to bring order/law to the "Pagan" world where orgies existed and such. Take for Instance, Halloween and easter come from pagan holidays, even Christmas was (Jesus Christ was born in the spring) but this was really teh catholic church morphing these holidays into their religion to basically take them over.....I'll move on.

But I am shocked by how religion to this day controls people's lives and influences some major decisions. 

I married my wife in a catholic church, becuase it meant something to her, I married her because I loved her. I've dated Jews, catholics, muslims, they all kissed the same, no one was different.

While I think religion is good for many people, it provides a solid foundation to live by, IE ten Commandments, but also have found it intrusive to affect peoples lives negatively.

not sure where I am going with my rant, but I just can not understand why people allow "others" to control their lives on very serious issues.

Such as not marrying someone they love dearly becuase they ahve a different faith, or a family not talking to someone becuase they married for the RIGHT reasons and not becuase they are the same religious.

now I live in georgia home of the Bible belt, I been told plenty of times I am going to hell because I am not a southern baptist. I find that view very narrow and ignorant, especially coming from NJ where we had more shades of color per person and every religion in a few miles radius, that you learned to respect others, for who they are, not what they are.

So what happens when we die, there is nothing? we just die, no heaven, no heall, just nothing...gone...dust.

I dunno, I find the world is sad when we kill over religious reasons or refuse to talk to someone or look down upon them becuase they do not go to your church or follow your religion.

just a rant...just a average guy, with a average wife and three kids.


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## draconis

For many people religion really "saves them" and others it provides hope or stability. It helps many more then it hurts in my honest opinion. Do I think people need to be more open minded ~ of course.

draconis


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## happilymarried67

Let's see I grew up catholic, switch to mormon, became a pagan, studied buddhism, and married a jew. I can say that I tolerate most religions well, as long as they don't hurt someone else. I do not believe that we should kill or judge in the name of any religion and I am happy to convert to judaism for my hubby. Do I think that I will go to hell for not recognizing Jesus Christ as my personal savoir? No. or I wouldn't be willing to convert. Do I feel that there is only one correct religion and we have to find it or end up in hell-No. But that is just me. Do I look down at athiest, agnositics, monotheistic or polytheistic people. No. As I said to each his own, as long as you are not harming anyone. I try to live by the 10 commandments and that is kind of me in nutshell. 

I find that alot of problems can stem from religion but I can understand how important it is for people to follow it. I can respect how people want to "Save me" only because these people care for my soul. I would not put myself in a relationship where someone's religion would not tolerate me unless I change. I think that is a very important decision to make when you are marrying someone because it can lead to problems later. ANd if you change your religious belief mid-relationship it could cause the same problem as if you decided to tell your partner that "I think I am a lesbian now". Or if you didn't want kids and now you want them. It is when you change from what you were together. That is where the problems come from.


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## GAsoccerman

Both Excellent replies to my initial posts.

Agreed Drac, that religion can help someone get out of a bad situation in life, IE drugs, Alchohol, other abusive issues and lead them to a better more productive life. i also agree that there is more positive with it then negative.

Unfortuantely the negative makes the news, while the positive is a normal everyday occurance.

And happily, what a whirlwind of self discovery, kudos to being intelligent and open minded to accept what the world has brought you. By altering your religion to fit your life and not altering your life to fit your religion shows me you are smarter then the average person. So mucho props.

I onced asked a co-worker for this scenerio....

Person A was a good father, A great husband, never stole anything never hurt a sould, did everything right by society, but he did not go to church or beleive in any religion.

Person B was a bad man, he killed 2 people, raped 3 women, stole money for his drug problem. But 1 week before he was scheduled to be executed by the state, he decided he had "found Jesus and wanted to change his ways"

I asked so they both die the same day, who goes to Hell who goes to heaven. She replied. Person B goes to Heaven, Person A goes to hell.

I asked why, she said because Person B found Jesus, Person A did not.

It's opinions like this that DRIVE ME NUTS, so i said to her, so I can do what ever I want and as long as I find "jesus" before I die, I am ok? She said Yes....I said, hmmmmm I really don't think GOD would view it that way.

That is the stuff that DRIVES me Bonkers. That is any religion and that is any fanatic from it.

Ok the safety dance is on, I must go groove to the music instead of ranting! (off soap box, now grooving to the beat)


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## draconis

I use to write a religious e-zine which included the simularities of Christianity, Muslim, Jewish, Buddism, Wicca and other religions. So I have done quite a bit of personal research myself.

Most people refer to John 3:18, 36 

18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already 36: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. 

However they ignore, John 5:29 

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 

So both men might be saved. However, it is only if man B has truly repented that he would be saved.

draconis


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## happilymarried67

draconis said:


> Most people refer to John 3:18, 36
> 
> 18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already 36: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
> 
> However they ignore, John 5:29
> 
> And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
> 
> draconis


Yay--Kudos to you Draconis. I knew it was in the bible somewhere :smthumbup:


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## Liza

Believing the bible and that God exist automatically leads to your life being lived in a particular way. Among other thing the ten commandments which I see governing the world. Thou shall not kill, steal etc. It doesn't matter which religion or not, most of those things are fundamental in any society. Believing in the bible should cause you to love your neighbours whether or not they are good to you, help those in need etc.


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## GAsoccerman

I disagree witht hat lisa, that may work for you, but it surely has not worked for others.

there is enough bad priests, pastors, and "church going folk" that have ruined that for me personally.

I find to many bad people hide behind "faith" and prey on gualable people for their money.

I agree religion can be a wonderful thing and it is a very personable matter, and that the good far out weigh the bad, but I can not use a broad stroke saying if you believe the bible you will be good, to many people have proven otherwise. Plus history has cleary demonstrated that people have used the bible for the wrong purpose. Take the KKK for example...they used the bible but they were pure evil.


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## draconis

Religion is and should be a personal thing between you and your God. I remember the days I worked for the trucking industry and I first got to know "True Christaian" it was a religion started by truck drivers but for anyone. There belief was simple.

Church is when two or more people sat down to talk about God, Jesus and the bible. They stressed how to live your life better for yourself and humanity through the best teachings of the bible. I was impressed at the fact they knew the bible so well inside and out.

In the end though people are people. Many go through the motions of religion. Many abuse it for power and money. On the whole I have seen so many people have there lives changed for the better. But with all good things there are bad apples.

Take AA a wonderful organization helping people. Most there are good people trying to be better people. You have those that do it just because they have to for court or to make others think they kicked the habit to keep around loved ones. But on the whole they are humbled people, making themselves better people.

I look at my mother and see all the wonderfulness in her. She is very devout and because of her faith she is a very good person giving much of her free time to help other in need.

How many churches give away free food here and abroad? How many give people hope? How many times have you heard a criminal see the light after going to jail and finding religion?

Every where you go you will find phonies and frauds from every walk of life and every part of society but they never speak for everyone. As long as there is religion some will be improved by it others will abuse it.

draconis


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## GAsoccerman

all good points drac and I agree. There are two sides to every coin.


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## md250r

GAsoccerman, I grew up in Georgia in the bible belt constanly fearing doing wrong and that if I did the wrath of God would come down on me. I went to a christian high school and spent many of me early years in the church really out of fear more than anything else. I ended up forgetting about church and God altogether for the past 10 years or so. I was given a book called The Shack by William Young about a month ago and the fact that it was an interesting story got me to read it, but after seeing his perspective on God it really changed my whole outlook on religion. Basically the moral of the story is that bad things in our lives are ultimatel put there by our own actions and the actions of others and that it is God's will for us to trust in Him and have a relationshipwith Him to get His support and and that will help us make it throughthe bad times. If you are interested you should give it a look.


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## GAsoccerman

So you are saying your book is like the poem, "footprints"

I am glad you found some clarity in your life, but as you said, people use religion to put fear into others and control their actions.

As I explain to my son, EVERYTHING is a choice, either a good choice or a bad choice, think before you act. Try to visualize what will happen with your choice, what will be the outcome.

Some things are a leap of faith....but to me that leap of faith is with in your own confidence., I control my life by my actions and my choices.


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## Honey

We all try to do the best you can in life. Sometimes, even trying to do the best you can with the choices you have made, you don't get the outcome you wish you had, this when you ask God for help.


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## Single_Dad

GAsoccerman said:


> I am not sure, but being a very "non-religious" person more of a Deist then any formal religion.
> 
> I find on alot of Marriage forums, including this one, Religion is a big "road Block" for many relationships on various levels.
> 
> I am almost dumb founded that this is such a big problem to get over.


GAsoccerman, speaking as a Christian single man who is dating, I'd like to offer this point of view. As a believer, I have a worldview that is remarkably different than non-believers. My faith drives my life, God is not only very real to me, but active in my life and decision-making. For me to become married to a non-believer would be a complete disaster -- the disconnects would be huge and the marriage would almost certainly falter. What happens when I want to tithe 10 percent of my income to the church and my wife tells me I'm a fool giving away his money? What happens when I donate time and effort to help support Christian activities and my wife accuses me of not spending enough time with her? What happens when I try to take my kids to church and my wife objects? Religious beliefs ARE a big deal. Especially for Christians.

I hope this helped!


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## GAsoccerman

so may I ask what happened to your first marriage?


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## bhappy3

Oh wow, what an interesting subject for me!! I'm currently in some state of transition. First off, let me just say that I drive a school van and take the kids to christian schools. Last year I had four girls, all under 9 years old. It was AMAZING to see how much weight they put into their religion, and how scripted their thoughts are. This year I have two christian schools, three kids under 9 and one that is 16. Again, I'm just blown away listening to them chatter. The 16 yo will explain what she's been taught to me, in a very nonjudgemental way. I'm actually amazed that the Brethern church that I take the 16 year old to seems to have nicer people than the baptist church I take the other kids to. I'm floored that the people parading into that church look so humdrum and are so snotty!! Are they not supposed to be spreading all the good they are taught? It's like pulling teeth to get them to smile at me!!! 

Like I said to one of the husbands on this forum who just kept going on and on about how his wife is leaving him and he's been doing all that he can to save her... everyone makes him out to be such a great guy, etc. What I want to know is her side of the story. We can't judge a single thing about their life and why she's leaving him until we hear her side. Same goes for the bible. Who wrote this thing? I mean were there not two sides, one side won, and they were the ones to write the book? So what is it that we're not hearing from the other side? Of course the side that won is going to want you to hear their story from their point of view! None of it is objective, it's all biased. So that's what you "know" and worship. Furthermore, how much got lost in translation? No one can answer these questions, yet they put all their faith and build their lives around it. Seems kind of shaky to me. 

Next... when I was planning my wedding, I called some churches in my town to get married in. The final church that I called (because after that I was DONE), I crap you not, this is the actual conversation, word for word:
me: Hi, I'm calling about using your church to get married in.
church: are you a member here?
me: no
church: then why are you calling?

I still can't believe it. 

My husband was raised brethern. What I have seen come out of that family is enough to turn my stomach from religion forevermore. I know of deep dark family secrets that would be shameful to even put on this forum. I have seen first hand things that I should not have physically seen. I have been treated like an outcast in that family for as long as I have known them. And the gossip... it runs their lives!!! Is this any way for any religious person to treat another? Absolutely not. I'm just appalled. 

Last year at christmas I went to one of my schools that I take kids to, to hear their concert. At the end of the concert, the pastor got up and did his schpiel. Well, he went and ruined a nice peaceful evening, for me at least. He started out with three totally judgemental stories from his past week or so. The first one he complained because at a four way stop someone didn't wait their turn. The second one he complained because someone parked in a handicapped spot at walmart and was not handicapped. And I forget what the third story was. The way he came across was so judgemental. Yet everyone in that congregation just sat back and took him all in and never questioned his tone. He lost me immediately. What did he know about these people that he was so quick to judge? Maybe the person who didn't wait their turn at the four way was on their way to the hospital b/c their wife was in labor? Maybe the person at walmart was picking up their handicapped grandmother? I don't know, but I just know I was offended immediately at his tone and judgement. I didn't think this was very appropriate for someone leading a group of people.

Next, as I said, I'm currently in a state of transition. I don't have strong roots where I came from, which is christian science (NOT to be confused with scientology). A lot of judgement there, too, not to mention, things that just don't make sense to me. I don't know where I'm going yet either. Since the marriage issue above, I have been to church a total of three times in the past nine years, and all three times I have gone through an anxiety attack to just get in the car to get there. I question whether there really is a god or not. I don't konw, no one knows. Does it make a difference whether I pray every day and ask god for this or that? No... things still happen, good and bad. I've talked to a few agnostics/athiests and gotten their points of view. They sure seem more realistic to me. What I am just beginning to think about is the comfort we get from attending church, regardless of the teachings. It's a place of peace and quiet. If you show up to a church, chances are, you're going to appear as a believer to them and they're going to try to accept you. They'll be nice and cheerful and warm. I know that feels good... to be accepted. I do miss the calm of a church service, but just don't agree with what's being preached. 

As children some of us believed in Santa and the Easter Bunny, etc. It was fun. It was a place to put all our hopes and aspirations for that holiday. It was about being good so we get good in return. It gave us hope. I think the whole religion thing is basically the same concept, just on a more complex adult level. It gives people a place to unload all their fears and hopes. If we're not good, we don't get good when we die. I've been going through my own hard times lately and though I don't believe in any religion, don't pray, and certainly dont' attend any church, I'm understanding why people turn to religion... it seems like a rock to stand on when the **** gets deep. It's a family to be there for you when all else fails. It's a place to unload all your burdens. I'm not turning to religion, I'm just going through some tough stuff right now and understanding how some people would be tempted by it. 

When I had some contact with an athiest that I found on craigslist because he was giving away his bibles because they didn't work (hehe), I explained myself to him and my views. He told me I sound like a humanist rather than anything else. I'm not out to hurt anyone. Just because I question religion and god doesn't mean I'm a bad person. I don't want to hurt people, and I try to help people as much as I can... let the guy with one item go ahead of me with the full cart at the checkout at the grocery store, wave when someone lets me get out ahead of them while driving, try to avoid gossip, smile!, and I try to have a happy positive attitude because I believe that's what it's all about. Don't they all go to church to feel good? Isn't that what being happy and smiling do for us? 

So if you've made it this far, thanks for listening to my rants. I've seen a lot of crap come out of people who put on this big act that they're so religious. We're all human. We all make mistakes and we all learn from them. Some of us just learn differently than others. We're all on this path of life together, we're just all travelling in different vehicles along the way. 

=)


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## Blanca

bhappy3 said:


> My husband was raised brethern.


What does that mean, raised brethern?


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## bhappy3

Brethern is a religion... like Mennonite, the women wear "coverings" on their heads and dresses all the time. Some denominations are strict and drive only black cars with black wheels and black bumpers and black grills and all that jazz. They're very gossipy b/c they aren't supposed to have TV's. No jewelry. Kind of reminds me of Amish, but not that strict.


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## justean

total atheist here. i might offend here, so this is the only thing i wil say.


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## Honey

I like to believe there is a God. 

I like to believe there is a better place that we go to after we die, because sometimes, this place seems like hell to me.  


YouTube - Rodney Atkins- If Your Going Through Hell


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## Sweet love

you can also make that place as a paradise with a little effort form your side.
Instead to wait for "God" to do it all for you.
i liek to beleive that we ahve a finger in ouir destiny and that we also decide what way its goign to turn out to be.
Little faith and lots of work.
You need little faith to beleiv in God
but lot of faith to go through the big work of life.
Lot of faith to cvan hope and to can love
Some poepe should put more faith in Love and in their woman than they put in God and that will make paradise on earth instead of hell.
All relationships need trust and the more trust there is the strogner is that relationship, and healthier and more enjoyable ot be in.
So we make it Heaven, or we make it hell...


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## bhappy3

Sweet love, now that is a different take that I've never thought of or heard of before. Interesting. Well put. But when you put it that way, it makes me think... we all have weak spots. We all need something to lean on, to make it seem easier. I guess that's why people use religion as a crutch. I know with my tough time I'm going through now I'm realizing that I can understand why people have religion. It's their own fantasy world where they can believe what they want and everything is perfect. Gives them something to look forward to, and for me right now, that wouldn't be a bad thing. I'm not changing my thoughts and starting to "believe", just saying that it's making more sense to me when times get tough.


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## Honey

A crutch? Hey, baby, God can be my crutch any time, and when need be, I hope I have two crutches.. God and Jesus on each side of me. This kinda of a crutch.. I don't mind having. 

YouTube - Healing Rain by Michael W. Smith

YouTube - Newsboys - He Reigns


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## Sweet love

i dont like crutch you cant run with it, and i rather fly...
so i will do without it, or will become God or Jesus, as he ask us to do..
follow my path..
and i will lead you to paradise..
thats easy
all you got to do is to fly!
I mean, but first you got to learn how to. ;9


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## Honey

So you flew a lot in your time, didn't ya, love? :rofl:
JK, hun.


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## Honey

:iagree:,and Amen brother. :rofl:

YouTube - Bon Jovi--Hallelujah


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## bhappy3

How do ya'll know the bible is the say all end all? What proof do you have that some looney didn't write it back in the day and that's what you're putting all your faith in? Just curious, trying to sort out some details.


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## Honey

You have never let him into your heart, have you? If you do, you will know he is for real, and he will show you signs when you pray for yourself or a sick loved one. Believe me, hun, it has worked for me. Why should he go out of his way for you, if you don't believe? What proof do you have that God isn't real? You know..I don't believe in the same faith as the Mormans do, because there is only one true book and it is the Holy Bible. Well, this is how I believe anyway. They say both the Holy Bible and the book of Morman go hand in hand, and one can't be without the other. The Holy Bible was doing just fine before that guy wrote his book. In the Holy Bible It says not to take away or add to my word. Isn't that what the guy did when he wrote The Book Of Morman? Still, you don't see me making them feel like they are looney. I know others have their own way of believing. You know..you sure do have so much hate for someone that you say isn't real, and hasn't done a damn thing to you, but gave you life, and died for your sins.


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## Honey

Sweet Love, darlin..I am in no way trying to make her believe, or anyone else for that matter. She (they) can do what she (they) want with her (their) life, and so can I, but if you happen to believe in God, others shouldn't make you feel like you are nuts because you do believe.


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## Sweet love

They will always do, so whats the point ot even enter the debate?
I dont see any.
same on the other way around.
Its liek talking about what dish or what parfume or what color or what flower people like
Some like this one soem hate it soem like another and there is no way oyu are going to make them change their mind.
You could as well ask obama to vote for mc cain.


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## Sweet love

And i also wanted ot tell you that i love you thats mroe important than anything else. 

:smthumbup: :woohoo:

its a marriage forum and they odnt even have a lissing smiley, not one!
That says it all..

about marriage.. 

:lol: :rofl::rofl:


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## Sweet love

I mean kissing. hic!


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## GAsoccerman

A couple of things ladies....

First...All good responses.

Sweetlove.... It is not a debate, their is no wrong or right, their is freedom to iscuss and exchange Idea's, and educational discussion. I would never want anyone to change their faith or what they believe in over a internet discussion.
Plus I see you ahve the same "typing issues" as I do  and your right no kissing one, but hey they do have a mooning one...so enjoy :moon:


Honey, my question for you, how do you know the Bible is correct? and which version? since it has been edited and changed multiple times, several chapters ahve been ommitted throught the years especially the ones dealing with Lucifer :FIREdevil:

How do you know the Christians have it correct? why not the Jews, or the Muslims? Roman catholics? The Buhdists? Multiple other religions out there.


Mommy, excellent post, S I pointed out earlier, there are "good people" and Bad people some use religion as a mask for their ways, some do not. Their are some bad preists and pastors out there, there are some very good atheists out there, maybe this is God's way of balancing out the masses?

Is there a heaven and a God? I dunno, I guess I will find out someday. I just think that when I do die and I get to where ever, if any place...

There Saint Peter is, He says, Ok Rob, Let's see....You been a good , loyal, faithful husband, a wonderful father to your kids, A great son to your parents, A great brother to your sisters and brothers, you helped your neighbors in times of needs, you always put others before yourself, Never did Drugs, never committed a crime, never did harm to others. Ok I see, here you didn't go to Church.

Ok Steve, you beat your wife, sexually abused your daughter, done drugs and committed crime, Ah but it says here you went to Church as soon as you got Diagnosed with cancer.

Ok Steve, your in, Sorry Rob your going down to the "bottom floor."


Somehow I just don't see that happening. We have been given free will and given choices in life, to either make the right decision or the wrong decision, I personally do not think GOD needs praise, I think he/She/it can handle it, i really think their confindence is fine without me worshiping him.

I rather worship my wifes fine Tush. :toast:

But I fully respect your opinions and Hope you continue to enjoy life, Ever in Atlanta, I would certainly have a drink and dinner with you and your spouses. Because you are good people.

I guess I just differ because I grew up in the shawdow of NYC, I have seen many idfferent people and many different cultures, studied them in college, including multple forms of religion and mythologies. 

I enjoy discussing world views with People and getting to know what makes people tick and think.


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## Honey

Everyone thinks their Religion is the right one, and will stand up to what they believe to be true. I believe that The Holy Bible is the true one. So with that said..I can agree to disagree w/o showing my azz to someone, because I happen to disagree with them. I don't agree with a Mormon friend of mine, but I will not bad mouth her Religion, or make her feel like she is really far out and souldn't believe that way. It is her right to believe any way she wants. I try to be respectful to others, and try not to go into attack mode, just because I disagree with them. It is pointless and a waste of my time, and most of all.. I don't want to make a jackazz out of myself trying to get my point across. 

Have a nice day !


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## Honey

You are not judged on if you show up every Sunday to Church, dude. I don't go every Sunday myself, but I have more love, honor, and respect for God and Church, than most people that go to Church every Sunday.


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## Sabine

GAsoccerman said:


> A couple of things ladies....
> 
> First...All good responses.
> 
> Sweetlove.... It is not a debate, their is no wrong or right, their is freedom to iscuss and exchange Idea's, and educational discussion. I would never want anyone to change their faith or what they believe in over a internet discussion.
> Plus I see you ahve the same "typing issues" as I do  and your right no kissing one, but hey they do have a mooning one...so enjoy :moon:
> 
> 
> Honey, my question for you, how do you know the Bible is correct? and which version? since it has been edited and changed multiple times, several chapters ahve been ommitted throught the years especially the ones dealing with Lucifer :FIREdevil:
> 
> How do you know the Christians have it correct? why not the Jews, or the Muslims? Roman catholics? The Buhdists? Multiple other religions out there.
> 
> 
> Mommy, excellent post, S I pointed out earlier, there are "good people" and Bad people some use religion as a mask for their ways, some do not. Their are some bad preists and pastors out there, there are some very good atheists out there, maybe this is God's way of balancing out the masses?
> 
> Is there a heaven and a God? I dunno, I guess I will find out someday. I just think that when I do die and I get to where ever, if any place...
> 
> There Saint Peter is, He says, Ok Rob, Let's see....You been a good , loyal, faithful husband, a wonderful father to your kids, A great son to your parents, A great brother to your sisters and brothers, you helped your neighbors in times of needs, you always put others before yourself, Never did Drugs, never committed a crime, never did harm to others. Ok I see, here you didn't go to Church.
> 
> Ok Steve, you beat your wife, sexually abused your daughter, done drugs and committed crime, Ah but it says here you went to Church as soon as you got Diagnosed with cancer.
> 
> Ok Steve, your in, Sorry Rob your going down to the "bottom floor."
> 
> 
> Somehow I just don't see that happening. We have been given free will and given choices in life, to either make the right decision or the wrong decision, I personally do not think GOD needs praise, I think he/She/it can handle it, i really think their confindence is fine without me worshiping him.
> 
> I rather worship my wifes fine Tush. :toast:
> 
> But I fully respect your opinions and Hope you continue to enjoy life, Ever in Atlanta, I would certainly have a drink and dinner with you and your spouses. Because you are good people.
> 
> I guess I just differ because I grew up in the shawdow of NYC, I have seen many idfferent people and many different cultures, studied them in college, including multple forms of religion and mythologies.
> 
> I enjoy discussing world views with People and getting to know what makes people tick and think.


I think that you should be banned for asking a user to kiss your a-ss and for talking in such decadent way to others.

In case you never knew it a debate is a discussion betweeen 2 or more parties where some agrees and some dont.
You cna have a debate between friedns who totaly agree about the main line of a subject but differ about different aspect of it and have their idea. Ingeneers can debate about how a building or a streets should be made, but i am sure they do agree about gravitation and Newtons laws.
A debate is simply an open discussion about what ever subject and it doe NOT imply that anyone is trying to convince the other part so get yourself a dictionary before insulting people.

If you have issues, talk them over with your therapist , dont lash them out at some innocent users in a forum.
You own that person an apologize. I have never see before someone asking a girl to kiss their a-ss, specialy here, because she was talking about how meaningless debates about religious matters often are? and because oyu dont have a clue as for what "debate" actualy mean?
From what i can see she is more clever than you are and can see clearly both side of the fence while you dont.

Are you now able to found a smiley for apology?


----------



## Blanca

GAsoccerman said:


> Sweetlove.... It is not a debate, their is no wrong or right, their is freedom to iscuss and exchange Idea's, and educational discussion.


there is no wrong or right...so is that the right way then, to not have a right or a wrong?


----------



## GAsoccerman

Ummmm Ladies...

Sorry for the confusion, First off Honey and Sabine you missed what I was talking about...

I was saying to "Sweetlove the poster" She is Correct there is no "kissing" emotion icon on a Marriage Board, But there is a "mooning" one....Go figure??? 

It was a Joke....you know Murphy's Law.

And Honey, as I said, You SHOULD stand up for what you believe in, I was just asking what version of the Holy Bible do you read? there are different versions of it, over the years it has been edited, there are over a 100 versions of the bible.

The most Popular being that of "king James" So basically I was just asking what version you read, that is all.

Sorry if you misunderstood my inital posts.


----------



## bhappy3

Wow Rob, you really ruffled some feathers here!!! Personally, I didn't think you were offensive at all to anyone. I thought you were the most level headed of all the responses. You're able to question what so many just believe, just because, without even questioning the matter. They were raised that way, it's a way of life for them, the only way of life they know, and they never question the validity of it. It's like believing in Santa... it's all you know when you're growing up, but then things start to click for you and you realize that hey, wait, that could be mom. 

Mommy, I dont' understand the whole sin thing. You practice religion and try real hard to do good. What sins are you committing (if you dont' mind sharing)? How do you let yourself "sin" if you believe so much? This whole concept is soooooooo confusing to me! Maybe I just need clarification of what "sinning" is. 

I actually had one of the girls on my van last year tell me exactly what GASoccerman's post said about going to heaven and the nasty man who accepted god right before he died, "got in", while the man who had been living a good life all along got "denied entry". She told me that as long as I accept god before I die, then I'll "get in". What? Then why spend your whole life not sinning and being fearful of god, if all you need to do is convert when you're faced with death? Shoot, live life to the fullest and have all the legal fun you can!

Honey, when I used to pray and "believe", nothing happened. Why should he go out of his way for me if I don't believe? He never did! Nothing has changed in the last ten years from when I used to pray and not praying. I don't have hate for anyone, not sure where you got that. I just have question. Who died for my sins? That was 2008 years ago... newsflash, I wasn't around back then, so how could someone die for me when I wasn't even alive? My mom and dad gave me life when they did it and conceived me. How do people not question this stuff? I'm so confused! 

This is all just so shady to me. I'm not saying there's NOT a god, I'm just questioning it. Sure, people sit down and pray every morning and say you can "just feel him there". You can feel the same goodness and wholesomeness if you sit down and have a pep talk with yourself, too. 

I'm not trying to piss anyone off. I'm just looking for some solid evidence, of which there is none. The more people preach to me, the more bogus and cracked up this stuff sounds. 

GASoccerman, help me write my report for my english class... Is there really a god?:moon:


----------



## Sabine

GAsoccerman said:


> Ummmm Ladies...
> 
> Sorry for the confusion, First off Honey and Sabine you missed what I was talking about...
> 
> I was saying to "Sweetlove the poster" She is Correct there is no "kissing" emotion icon on a Marriage Board, But there is a "mooning" one....Go figure???
> 
> It was a Joke....you know Murphy's Law.
> 
> And Honey, as I said, You SHOULD stand up for what you believe in, I was just asking what version of the Holy Bible do you read? there are different versions of it, over the years it has been edited, there are over a 100 versions of the bible.
> 
> The most Popular being that of "king James" So basically I was just asking what version you read, that is all.
> 
> Sorry if you misunderstood my inital posts.


Apologise taken gaso, but still admit that the joke wasnt on you.. 
showing once butt about kissing means kiss my a--
I thought only religious people were hypocrites.. 

Oh and about the many version of the bible, well that onyl goes for USA.. in the rest of the world there is only the official one.
Not King James. I can tell you that the real official one is the one edited by the edition "La Pléiade" and who is made by several big expert in biblical questions and old scriptures and dead languages like arameans and old greek and copt, and ancient Hebrew, who retranslated criticaly the whole texts based on the orginals we have in different libraries of the world, only accesible ot historians and specialist due to the conservation of those documents, and that version inculdes the different possible translations of each word presenting a problem, as soem words in those languages can have different meaning in our language, depending of the context and of what the writer was trying to say.
So they put all of them as quotations on each single page, and gave the reason why they had chosen in their transklation this and that meaning of the word, based on historical knowledge and based on traditions back then and how things were done.
So i am sorry but the other versions are simply alterations of the original some of them very gross.

and bhappy3, you know very well that he wasnt offensicve about the subject maqtter but about showing his butt to a user.. which oyu prove by doing the same at teh end of your long post. So why write so much when it was just what you wanted to show us?

I am sorry that oyu cant use comon sense to make head and hale of things but its evident that nobody go to hell nor heaven just based on the fact that they have get baptised or not or based on the fact that they say having taken jesus into their heart.
They could be a new mother Theresa for 20 years after having been mass murder, they will still be judge on the killing they did too.
There is no instant absolution in christianity. I am afraqid its a hyper simplification of the concept made as fast food christianity specialy for american users..
But of course it isnt true.
Even as christian from birth and havign doen no seriosu crimes, you wills till be judge on your actions and thoguths towards others. How oyu treated those close to you and how carefull or careless you were to your next.
The message of christ is about love and to treat others as you would like to be treated your self and to help others.
A sin is the lack for humans to can do so always.
We are not supposed to be sinless as it is part of beign human to make sin its part of our human nature.
Therefor too we are forgiven most of our sins and must ask for forgiveness ot seek guidance and become better. tahts in fact a very good selfhelp package to become better and to kick off once selfdevelopment.
We are alos given the free will, menaing the right to chose the life we want to live.
Thats why too we can commit sins.
Sh-- happen.
How bad a sin it will be is entirely in our hands.
So if you want to be very nasty go ahead be so.
If not dont be
thats your choice and freedom.
But of course if you live a life of hurting others dont expect yourself of not being hurted and to be granted a eternal happy life after that.
Thas logical.
Expect what you did to others to fall back on you like a boomerang. In this life or in the next one and even harder.

If there was no free will, there will be no sins.
Cool huh?
But then we will all be robots, and we will not be good cause we want to be so and cause we are good by nature, but cause we will be computed that way and will not know of any other ways to be.
Borring.. and not very dignifying.
Than like it is now, you have ot chose constantly, to asses, to know, to found out, to grow, to change, to understand, and to feel passionate feelings.
And its much more difficult to be the good guy when all is so tempting and all is pressing you to go in the opposing direction.
It make it even more worth it and it impact more.
We are good by choice
and we are bad by choice.
our own choice.
to steal is a sin
but to steal food when you are hungry and got nothing is not a sin.
On the first one you got a choice ont the second you havent so its not a sin.
you have to chose to can chose for your actions to be a sin.
To kill is a sin
to kill oyur own son is a very big sin
but if youa re to kill oyur son with a gun pointed at yoru own head and at the head of your wife and other kids and if oyu odnt kill him all of you wil get killed, then its not a sin at all.
The weight is all on you, you have to chose but you cant, you remorse your act before doign it, the sin is on those who made you do it.

Thats also very very logical.
Basicaly a life as a christian is to follow your heart and know what is good and true to do.
and no its not beleiving in santa, its knowing that you have a choice, and that you can do better, and that it is what you ought to do.

you dont have to go on your knees to pray. Praying is a state of mind. It is better reached in a quiet place and a church can be a good place to do so, but if you can wish for otehrs well being and for your own and to can reach your goals or to be more clear minded or know waht it si htat oyu want and need, then you surely will get very good results doing so.

You dont need to go to a concert either, rigth? you just need to start yoru stereo and karakoe some of those songs you like most and have a good kick inside yourself and you will feel as good and as sweating, after 2 hours, than if you had been to a concert, only its cheaper. So why bother, huh?

On the other hand you could argue that something will be definitly missing...

The Real Band! :rofl:

... just suggesting..


----------



## Honey

GAsoccerman said:


> Ummmm Ladies...
> 
> Sorry for the confusion, First off Honey and Sabine you missed what I was talking about...
> 
> I was saying to "Sweetlove the poster" She is Correct there is no "kissing" emotion icon on a Marriage Board, But there is a "mooning" one....Go figure???
> 
> It was a Joke....you know Murphy's Law.
> 
> And Honey, as I said, You SHOULD stand up for what you believe in, I was just asking what version of the Holy Bible do you read? there are different versions of it, over the years it has been edited, there are over a 100 versions of the bible.
> 
> The most Popular being that of "king James" So basically I was just asking what version you read, that is all.
> 
> Sorry if you misunderstood my inital posts.


Hey,man, don't worry about it.


----------



## Honey

bhappy3 said:


> Wow Rob, you really ruffled some feathers here!!! Personally, I didn't think you were offensive at all to anyone. I thought you were the most level headed of all the responses. You're able to question what so many just believe, just because, without even questioning the matter. They were raised that way, it's a way of life for them, the only way of life they know, and they never question the validity of it. It's like believing in Santa... it's all you know when you're growing up, but then things start to click for you and you realize that hey, wait, that could be mom.
> 
> Mommy, I dont' understand the whole sin thing. You practice religion and try real hard to do good. What sins are you committing (if you dont' mind sharing)? How do you let yourself "sin" if you believe so much? This whole concept is soooooooo confusing to me! Maybe I just need clarification of what "sinning" is.
> 
> I actually had one of the girls on my van last year tell me exactly what GASoccerman's post said about going to heaven and the nasty man who accepted god right before he died, "got in", while the man who had been living a good life all along got "denied entry". She told me that as long as I accept god before I die, then I'll "get in". What? Then why spend your whole life not sinning and being fearful of god, if all you need to do is convert when you're faced with death? Shoot, live life to the fullest and have all the legal fun you can!
> 
> Honey, when I used to pray and "believe", nothing happened. Why should he go out of his way for me if I don't believe? He never did! Nothing has changed in the last ten years from when I used to pray and not praying. I don't have hate for anyone, not sure where you got that. I just have question. Who died for my sins? That was 2008 years ago... newsflash, I wasn't around back then, so how could someone die for me when I wasn't even alive? My mom and dad gave me life when they did it and conceived me. How do people not question this stuff? I'm so confused!
> 
> This is all just so shady to me. I'm not saying there's NOT a god, I'm just questioning it. Sure, people sit down and pray every morning and say you can "just feel him there". You can feel the same goodness and wholesomeness if you sit down and have a pep talk with yourself, too.
> 
> I'm not trying to piss anyone off. I'm just looking for some solid evidence, of which there is none. The more people preach to me, the more bogus and cracked up this stuff sounds.
> 
> GASoccerman, help me write my report for my english class... Is there really a god?:moon:


Honey, when I used to pray and "believe", nothing happened. 

He has his reasons, which we do not no why or understand. Sometimes God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers.

Why should he go out of his way for me if I don't believe?

He never did! Nothing has changed in the last ten years from when I used to pray and not praying.

Did you really believe it will happen for you? Did you ever let him into your heart or did you just use him for the things you wanted at the time? 

I don't have hate for anyone, not sure where you got that. I just have question. 
Who died for my sins? 

Jesus did, which is really God btw. This one is hard to understand for ones that don't get the Bible or want to understand it.


That was 2008 years ago... newsflash, I wasn't around back then, so how could someone die for me when I wasn't even alive? My mom and dad gave me life when they did it and conceived me. How do people not question this stuff? I'm so confused! 

Newsflash..
God knew you before you were even born. Your mom and dad made love, but God was the one that made it happen...put you there at that time. Meaning made you. God knows you better than you know yourself. You will see that one day. 

Another newsflash for ya..

How did it all get started then? Someone was hatched from a science project? Like Adam and Eve..they made love and BAM ! We have people now. Look around you.. It is too well planed out not to have a higher power out there. Science alone did not do all of this. 

If you are mad at God, maybe the reason why he didn't answer you, you don't truly believe that it will happen for you. Have more "FAITH" in God and see what will happen for you.


----------



## GAsoccerman

Mommy,

we are good, it's all good, the more we think, the better off we all are. Did you and daddy22 settle things like I said in our other posts?? LOL


----------



## GAsoccerman

Sabine...

Interesting reply, that only in the USA we have dilluted versions of the Holy Bible, especially when King james version derived from England. The editing of the Holy Bible has been going on since it was first written. To say the rest of the world uses the "correct version" is a bit profound.

But I take it that you are a scholary person, highly educated and probably study Religion/history in University.

May I ask which country are you loacted in? Great Britian, Italy, France? etc? I am just curious to where you are located that is all.

For the most part, the USA is one of the heavier religious countries in the world, often looked down by Europeans for our ultra conservative ways in faith and views. 

But let's stop the Bible talk, Can anyone tell me why the Koran is not correct? Why are the Buhdist incorrect? the jews? The Mormons?

Bhappy, there is nothing wrong with questioning things, there are no stupid questions as my teachers used to say. You are looking for deeper meaning to life, you need more logical answers. Nothing wong with delving into things and questioning things. We all view things differently that is who we are. Keep looking and questioning, find what you are looking for and enjoy the ride.


Also Sabine, I still don't get the whole "butt Kissing thing"  ...no one is saying "kiss my butt" the emotional Icon is "mooning" which just may be a US thing and you simply don't get it, being that your european, it is just a funny thing...

I mean they have a "mooning" one but not a "kissing" one.....Why? one of life's great mysteries of the web (music please)


----------



## Sabine

GAsoccerman said:


> Sabine...
> 
> Interesting reply, that only in the USA we have dilluted versions of the Holy Bible, especially when King james version derived from England. The editing of the Holy Bible has been going on since it was first written. To say the rest of the world uses the "correct version" is a bit profound.
> 
> But I take it that you are a scholary person, highly educated and probably study Religion/history in University.
> 
> May I ask which country are you loacted in? Great Britian, Italy, France? etc? I am just curious to where you are located that is all.
> 
> For the most part, the USA is one of the heavier religious countries in the world, often looked down by Europeans for our ultra conservative ways in faith and views.
> 
> But let's stop the Bible talk, Can anyone tell me why the Koran is not correct? Why are the Buhdist incorrect? the jews? The Mormons?
> 
> Bhappy, there is nothing wrong with questioning things, there are no stupid questions as my teachers used to say. You are looking for deeper meaning to life, you need more logical answers. Nothing wong with delving into things and questioning things. We all view things differently that is who we are. Keep looking and questioning, find what you are looking for and enjoy the ride.
> 
> 
> Also Sabine, I still don't get the whole "butt Kissing thing"  ...no one is saying "kiss my butt" the emotional Icon is "mooning" which just may be a US thing and you simply don't get it, being that your european, it is just a funny thing...
> 
> I mean they have a "mooning" one but not a "kissing" one.....Why? one of life's great mysteries of the web (music please)



stop denying facts gaso. I was asking about the kissing smiley and why they didnt had one in a forum about marriage and love, and you answered by telling "but they got aq mooning one" and its a guy showing his a-ss menaing kkiss my as.s
But if you really dont know it and are palyign innocdent so i would like to know why you keep pretending being looking for true answers when oyu are not and are only out to make feuds.
england or USA thats the same.
thats the english that came to the US and tried to control it until independancy , and up to then you had that king james bible and still have it.
I am talking about catholicism.
all other churchs derivated from it.
Budism is not a religion but a philosophy or philosophycal set.
Judaism was officialy replaced by chritianity form the words of Jesus who came with the new arch. From the arch of Moises to the one with new principles handed to us by Jesus.
Therefor anihilating judaism as it was up to hten, and was redicted by all prophetes long befroe the arrival of Jesus, and was therefor denied by all seraphin s and rabbyi es as it will ment the end of them and of the synagoges that they were living on.
The synagogues and rabbies were form the begining a momentaraly arrangement made to outbalance the lack of prophetes after the captivity in Egypt.
Only becasue a big part of the jews did not took christianity and the message of their new prophete to them, judaism still exist in paralel with christianity,. but it was supposed to replace it form the judaic scritures themselves.
As for what mormons goes, the text themselves were written after Joseph Smith died and changed several tiems in a few years and stil adaptated and isnt a religion but a sect whos goal is to recruite as many memebers as possible.
it try to use the figure of christ to recruite more but has nothign to do with it at all.
They do not have a real fast teaching their teaching change form a place to another and even from a person to another.
Its a kind of science fiction misture with Jesus from america..
but the fact is that joseph smith was in contact with franc macon from Eurpe who went to the US to spread their systema nd to recruite members in "the new world". therefor mormonism is highly inspired by franc maconics symbolic and figures and their temples are fill to crac with framc maconiocs symbls and statues and paintings and colors and ceremonial.. who are to track all the way back in the time of joseph smith and how some framc maconic orders/loge were practicing their ritual.
Mormonism is a kind of smoothie made with different elements taken left and right, even a bit scientologists, of oyu look at their extra terrestrial guys coming here to reproduce themselves..trhe lsit is long but the mix is not only obvious but far out.

As for the Qmran, it is very simple, arabs were in contact with people following the judaic religion since longf and were in contact with christian long before the qmran was written and had heard form second and tenth hands teling of moises and of jesus and thats what you got in the qmeran some very bad delivered stories who are all wrong and far away from the originals, as well as arabic mythologies from before mahomet time who survived as "the life of jesus and the life of mary" inside the qmran.
totaly delirious fairytells but thats the way it is.
the way the verse of the coran were collected and then put together and all sources burned and then later on rewritten, only make the whole thing more quirky.
Most of it is how one man wished to run the show. And also stuff written after the wars agaisnt christians and contian therefor a lot of thigns who are hatefull both towards jews and otwards christians.
All paryers system in the muslim tradution are based on the christian cathilic one as it was during the middleage when arabs invaded part of Europe.
La Mecqua was an indhuistic religious center, 6000 years ago and a temple dedicated to the god of death and destruction.
Later one it was overtaken by pharaonic preasts and necame the temple of Horus. Who is also a God of death. the God of the other side.. Both representation of those gods are made in black stone so hte same was used.
later on that temople was overtaken by the jews, then destroyed by arabs, then rebuilded by the jews, then destroyed by arabs who then overtook it when mahomet decided it will be the center of Islam religion. 
The black stone they still use today as a symbol of their religion is a rest of the statue of Horus/death and destruction God.
the ritual preceding the tribulatins around the stone, how many time they do so and in what seense, and the cleaning preparations and the way they dress fro that ceremony, are all taken directly from the Indhouistic religious traditions, as oyu ahve many temples in india still tofday who do the wexact same things as muslims do at la Mecqua each year, only its an indhu god and not allah.
So oyu can say that fom A ot Z, Islam is taken form what was before and what they found along the way and mixed up completely, while presented as genuatly comming from one source. For expl like if there was nothing at Al Mecqua before Mahomet chosed the spot as the center of the world.
Becasue if muslims knew that will ternish their idea of islam a bit too much.
It is known by a few but not widly known.
The father of mahomet was a priest, from the different religions that were in circulation and usual att hat time, before islam begin. And he was priest for Baal, the god of the underground and of primary powers.
He took some of it with him when writting the qmran and when chosing the center for his new religion.
Baal was represented with a man sitting on a throne, half bouc with horns and half man, in control of the fire and of the human desires. The figure was overtaken later on by the church to represent the devil and his kingdom of hell.
So all in all thats a bit of a joke that we are today in open war with representatnt of that religion who call us satans, when the center of their religion is one of the oldest place where they used to worship satan..
A big mix if you ask me.

Of all hte religions mentioned above, christianity is the one that has been the most criticised openly and filtered and look with a loup, and over analysed, and looked after the failure kind of thing.

Mormonism do not stand a closer lok
nor does Islam
and in the islam case its even lethal to begin to criticise it oer to open a debate on it or to talk about the historical part of it.
or even to mention its verses.
Which minimise immediatly the number of critics made about it. ..

Ask yourself whom oyu are and where oyu coem from and what you can make out of it. Askign abotuwhat religion is true is kind of meanignless.
if you really care, then you would like to know the meanign of it all and why oyu are there and whereall originated from.
Not stand there making faces abotu what religion is right and specily isnt..
what for?


----------



## Honey

But let's stop the Bible talk, Can anyone tell me why the Koran is not correct? Why are the Buhdist incorrect? the jews? The Mormons?

I don't know much about other Religions, other than what a Mormon lady told me about her Religion. I think The Mormons are very nice people and try to live a good life. What I don't understand about their Religion is..

they say The Book Of Mormon and The Holy Bible goes hand in hand...that one can't do without the other. That right there isn't true. The Holy Bible was around before The Book Of Mormon was.

Also, in the Holy Bible God said "do not add to or take away from my word". Making the Book Of Mormon is doing must that, isn't it? :scratchhead:

Also they don't speak of a Heaven or hell, but 3 Kingdoms, and judging how you are on Earth is where you will be after you die.

The higher one you are with God and you can go to the other too to visit, but the lower 2, you can not go to the top one.

This to me isn't how I see God being, and sounds like a lot of made up BS to me. I don't see God doing a thing like that, because I'm sure he would want us to know him and see him, unless we end up in hell.


----------



## Sabine

Maybe you should also read previous posts before posting, Honey. Thats call good forums etiquette.


----------



## swedish

Sabine said:


> I am talking about catholicism.
> all other churchs derivated from it.


Are you saying all other churches were derived from the Catholic Church? What about Greek Orthodox?


----------



## GAsoccerman

Sabine, So you're french? Also, by your long posts and deep perspective, may I ask your profession? Plus was religion a big part of your study through university?

PLus Honey was just giving his own opinion, which is a good opinion and a honest one.

I enjoy both your posts.


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## GAsoccerman

All praise GAsoccerman

:allhail:


----------



## Honey

GAsoccerman said:


> All praise GAsoccerman
> 
> :allhail:


:lol::rofl:


----------



## Sabine

GAsoccerman said:


> Sabine, So you're french? Also, by your long posts and deep perspective, may I ask your profession? Plus was religion a big part of your study through university?
> 
> PLus Honey was just giving his own opinion, which is a good opinion and a honest one.
> 
> I enjoy both your posts.



yes, also the greek orthodox...there must be over 100 different orders who are all under the Vatican and the pope, and some more others who detached them from it but are still a bi product of the catholic church. Like protestant and english church who came to as the result of an internal dissention, religious for the one, political for the others.

You can even say that democratie and the constitution are a bi product of both greek philosophers ideas saw kong time before and of christians charity and idea of sharing and caring.
A social and health network can only be in countries who do have the christian culture to support the idea.
Communism was a bi product of christian conception of sharing all and taking care of all together.
countries who didnt had the christian culture as background madea jolly massacre of the communistic idea of sharing, the goods of society/production, and an abusive interpretation of it.
Its like wether or not people are christian or atheist or else today in Europe and USA, Australia and all the western world, so we all have a christian way of thinking. Even our political views no matter how different hjoins on tha tpoint.
We are all under the christian influence and our societies are in their essence christian. The fondation of all western societies are christianity. hich transpire on all its structure also in how we made the law and the punishment systems.. sins are not far..
and how our governemental laws are made.
They are all based on how we understand ourselves as person, and they are all very christian.
We dont realise how christian wer are because it comes to us as natural, with mother milk, as such an intresecked part of our culture.
Its also because christian faith is the alone faith that gives room for democratie and personal freedom and choice.

It is the organised system of christian cathlic closters and churches that made possible school teaching to all in Europe starting in Frnace and to use it as foundament to create house of law for democratical governements and to create governemental laws and the system was copied everywhere ever since.
So we got our roots there. Which make it very difficult for us to judge it since ewe can never be exterior to it or objectiv, since we are always in it no matter if weare christian or say that we are atheist.


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## GAsoccerman

so in your opinion Catholicism is the foundation for every religion in the world? not juedism (sp?) 

Why do you think there are so many different types or "splinter offs" of the Core religion of the world? 

Why would GOD allow such diverse aspects of his ways?

Also if Jesus were to appear on the earth today how do you think he would be recieved?


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## GAsoccerman

Also, for the record, I agree that religion and western society are closely intertwined, One of the main reasons USA is the way it is, simply due to our religious foundation. Many religions left Europe to come live in America to practice thier beliefs here without persecution. 

The USA is allot more tolerant then most societies when it comes to religion. While America is not perfect, no country is we allow anyone to worship as they see fit.


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## swedish

Sabine said:


> yes, also the greek orthodox...there must be over 100 different orders who are all under the Vatican and the pope, and some more others who detached them from it but are still a bi product of the catholic church. Like protestant and english church who came to as the result of an internal dissention, religious for the one, political for the others.


You state that as fact, however most of the Greek Orthodox faith would disagree, believing that they are the continuation of the ancient Orthodox Christian Church, that they trace their history back to Christ and the apostles, and that the Church was "formally" established on the day of Pentecost. The Roman Catholic Church placed itself outside of this fellowship when it broke off communion with the Greek Orthodox Church in the 11th century

The one, undivided Church is said to have begun on the day of Pentecost, 50 days after the Resurrection of Christ. Already by the 4th century the term "Orthodox Christian" was used to designate those Christians who remained faithful to the totality of the teaching of Jesus Christ and the apostles, as opposed to those who were known as "heretics" who promoted false doctrines and beliefs. 

The Western church, known today as the "Roman Catholic Church," split from the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchates of Constantinople, Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch in the 11th century. Roman Catholics, however, see it from the opposite perspective, namely that the Orthodox Church broke communion with the Roman Catholic Church. 

The Greek Orthodox believe that they are the continuation of the ancient Orthodox Christian Church, that they trace their history back to Christ and the apostles, and that the Church was "formally" established on the day of Pentecost. The Roman Catholic Church placed itself outside of this fellowship when it broke off communion with the Greek Orthodox Church in the 11th century.

In my opinion, it’s an opinion of who broke from whom not a fact as you’ve stated. I am Greek Orthodox, my husband and children are Roman Catholic. In the Greek Orthodox Church, ours is considered a ‘mixed’ marriage. However, in my opinion the basic teachings are consistent and not so far off in their respective beliefs that it would cause me any concern.


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## Honey

Also if Jesus were to appear on the earth today how do you think he would be recieved?

I think the ones that believe in him would be excited to see him. The ones that don't would say he isn't Jesus, and the ones that want no good to come to them after they die, would want to tie him to the cross again to see what happens, so they can say..see you guys are full of bs, he won't be able to get up from the dead. You know..to try to prove to the believes that they are wasting their time with going to Church, praying, and believing in God.


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## Sabine

The cathilic church with head first in Avignon and then in Rome, was already existing in the 11th century so that argumentation is dull..
you are mixing with the several priests in the mountians around in greece who are still following the ancient traditios and making mass in aramean as it was done back then and following the exact ceremomial as it was done 2000 years ago and who even use the ttable of stone who were used back then, and who are in holes inside mountains.
They are follwoign the original path, but htose caling themselves orthiodox only figth about a date and who care? it doesnt change at all the contain of what they are following at al.
You mix 2 different things which is very usual as its often described that way in different books. but thats scanning the surface. 
And if you got your info from wikipedia i wont trust it at all.
all ifo on wikipedia are made or by poepl supporting the subject matter or being totaly agaisnt it and all depend on what side the mod is on.. like ofr instance the wiki about mormons is written by mormons and the mod on it are all mormons.. which make it very difficult for non mormons to psot anything they knwo abotu it and for ex mormons to coem with own experience whoa re not all in synch with the image and PR they want to give of themselves, and this way nothign true come there Yet all who want to get info about mormonsim will go on wiki to learn about it..
Wiki is the hyper central of desinformation.
Even about physic they say direct lies.
So if they can trick with scientifical facts, imagien what they can do about historical facts and religious ones..

to come back about this the catholic church is call the cathilic church and not the roman one,. only in US..
and probably in England too..

you seems to forgot htat hey beleive in the resurection of christ and in the virginity of mary both things who were first introduce at the concile of Nicée in 700...
so there..

cant be that orthodox after all..

Saint Peter was the first to go avry from Jesus teaching by instaurign the port of shal or covering of head for women entering church..
that was a strict break up from Jesus teaching..
so there si nobody that can say to be orthodox and following Jesus path as it was since even an apostle started the wrong trend..


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## Sabine

Honey said:


> Also if Jesus were to appear on the earth today how do you think he would be recieved?
> 
> I think the ones that believe in him would be excited to see him. The ones that don't would say he isn't Jesus, and the ones that want no good to come to them after they die, would want to tie him to the cross again to see what happens, so they can say..see you guys are full of bs, he won't be able to get up from the dead. You know..to try prove to the believes that they are wasting their time with going to Church, praying, and believing in God.


that was a weird one..

I think nobody will care not even the christians.
I could be Jesus, you wont even notice it.
People see what they want to see in whom they want to see it.
Period.


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## GAsoccerman

I agree with Sabine....

If Jesus came up to you tomorrow, and Said, hey i am Jesus, you would want him to prove it. Especially if he wasn't white or a male.

Religion is a very complicated matter, Sabine and Swedish are at odds, but neither is wrong, just different opinions.

You see History is molded by those whom are in power. Books are edited by those in control.

While the US has freedom of the press and freedom of speech, that was not the case before America was formed. Why do you think there is a King James version of the Bible?

It is all very interesting


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## Mary-Lou

Hmm I agree with you Gasoccerman.

But there is many books made by people doing research and who are not at all edited by those in control. Special editions from several bookshore are in fact dedicated to that type of things. Some are pure invention or more based on the imagination of the author than on facts, but they contain some interesting facts, and many others are only made by people who are serious in their field and in fact most of those things are well known by the church. Its only a matter of information for the people following a religion that they do not keep themselves updated with those facts.
Most historians will agree. We must only regret that their work are not populistic ones shown on tv..
For instance many of what can be seen in the book of Alan Brown are directly stolen from historical books on the subject. That he made himself as the one having invented it and made a roman of it is scandalous since he simply read some of their work and builded up a roman based on it.
The tragedy of it is that he also mixed up things together and didnt help the case since he made it even less credible...
There is places near Tibet where they have tombs of an apostle and even a place with a tomb of Jesus..
Where people still come to pray there and those people are not offficialy christian their religion is specific to this little geographical location, but its contain are christian.

I think that in Europe they are more free in this area, both in religious matter and in books censorship.
(or lack of censorship).

I like your input about Jesus coming back but not as white and not as male. I think that it is very interesting.
I would like Jesus coming back as a woman to teach them some to all the christians who primarly used their religion to opress their wives and women in general..
I think they will fall dead or in coma if that was to happen LOL!
Will they still beleive in Jesus and follow his path if Jesus was a woman?
I am very convinced that most of them will not.
We advanced in technology and in many fields, but as for what mentality goes, we are still at middleage or worse. As the choice of name, in another thread, show.
I mean, christians ready to drop their wife or not marry them based on her keeping her maid name is so far out as can be.
It show a huge discrepency between how modern people beleive to be and how fossilised their mentality truely are.
Maybe one day this will change too... but as long as we are not ready to change how we view things, i dont think you will see any Jesus coming back..


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## dcrim

This thread makes me think of the crusades!


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## Mary-Lou

yes you are rigth, there was a lot of women there and also lot of people back then talking about hte scriptures and their historical validity and questioning their faith as well as talking freely about all the other religions.

hehehehe.


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## Mary-Lou

PS: whats your definition of the crusades? could be interesting to hear that.


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## Honey

Sabine said:


> that was a weird one..
> 
> I think nobody will care not even the christians.
> I could be Jesus, you wont even notice it.
> People see what they want to see in whom they want to see it.
> Period.


:scratchhead: How is that weird? One would think that the Christians would want to see Jesus one day. Don't these people want to be with him at the end? Believe me, darlin, if Jesus comes back, you will know it is him. When he comes back to Earth, isn't it the end? :scratchhead:

Sorry, I'm just trying to understand the Bible here.


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## dcrim

Mary-Lou said:


> PS: whats your definition of the crusades? could be interesting to hear that.


god vs. god. (lower case intentional)


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## bhappy3

swedish said:


> I am Greek Orthodox, my husband and children are Roman Catholic. In the Greek Orthodox Church, ours is considered a ‘mixed’ marriage. However, in my opinion the basic teachings are consistent and not so far off in their respective beliefs that it would cause me any concern.


I haven't been keeping up with this thread too much, been too busy with other things. But I did read just this little snippet and thought... hmm, so your religion says that you have a "mixed marriage", and you still look at it the way that suits you. I think that's great and fine and all, but it prompted this objective question in my head...

Isn't that kind of how different religions or churches get formed? Someone breaks off and still believes some things of their past religion, but builds on it to suit their needs or whatnot, and a new church is created. If you have enough members that agree with the "new" version, then it's branched out. 

For example, there's an old church around here that had a bunch of its members disagree with some teaching or doctrine. The group that agreed upon the different interpretation actually broke away and for a time, were holding their "meetings" in someone's house. When they got too big for that, they built their own church. 

So I guess my question is this...

Way way way back when religion got started, whenever that was, is it not possible that there was a major difference in opinions or translations of teachings or words, that different religions were formed right then and there? So is it not all just a matter of interpretation, and maybe things are so skewed and lost in soooo many translations 2000 years later? 

I'm really not trying to ruffle feathers. Please don't take offense. I feel like an inquisitive child when I ask these things.


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## Blanca

Honey said:


> Also, in the Holy Bible God said "do not add to or take away from my word". Making the Book Of Mormon is doing must that, isn't it?


Well I hear this often. But think about when that was written, that no more should be added. there was a lot added, in the bible, after that was written.


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## swedish

bhappy3 said:


> Way way way back when religion got started, whenever that was, is it not possible that there was a major difference in opinions or translations of teachings or words, that different religions were formed right then and there? So is it not all just a matter of interpretation, and maybe things are so skewed and lost in soooo many translations 2000 years later?


From what I've been taught, that is exactly what has happened historically. The parting of ways between the Greek Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church had much to do with the Roman Catholic Church adding 'filoque' (and the son) to the Nicene Creed, believing the Holy Spirit came from both the Father and the Son whereas the Greek Church believed the Holy Spirit came from the Father only. There were also disagreements regarding Papal authority vs. Bishops. In the years to follow other groups split from the Roman Catholics; the Protestants, the Lutheran and the Anglican denominations.

I'm not aware of the Greek Orthodox Church changing to accommodate modern thinking. I don't claim to be a religious person myself, but I do believe in Christianity and also believe the basic teachings are a good way to live my life and raise my children. As far as looking at it the way that it suits me, if I had major issues with the Holy Spirit wording and Pope vs. Bishop authority I suppose it would put me at odds to baptize my children Roman Catholic but the bottom line for me is that the differences don't cause me any internal conflict.


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