# Question to Cheaters



## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

My partner cheated on my, and I have read in one of his emails to her:
..., if x would not catch us on act, I would choise for you. As you are my reason for existance. I finally understand why I was born on this world. And my happiness can only be complete by taking care of you. I want to take care of you and your children, this is my only reason for living. .....

He now tells me that despite he has written this, he would have never really choise for her. That is was a nice dream, an illusion where he could let out of his lost/frustrated feelings, that he was not able anymore to share with me. 

I tell him, you can not write something like that without feeling that in your heart and brain and body and believe it. He says yes, maybe I did at that moment, but if you would have walked it and put me back in reality, I know would never go gor her. I would always go for you.

So dear cheaters in here, what is your view on this? Can someone really put thngs down like this and not mean it?


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

Not a cheater, but as a guy i can tell we have it in us to say whatever you want to hear if we think that will be worth some hot sex.

I don't know if your husband really meant it or not. But it is very much possible that he was only really wanting some sex action.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Or, he lacks integrity.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

aug said:


> Or, he lacks integrity.


He cheated, we already know he does...


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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

Costa, that is just what makes is worse, physically it did not work out, that was going doing, but emotionally it appears to me to get deeper and deeper. 
I know he was breaking up nearly few days, but then always getting back due to pressure from her. But when you then find emails like this, you doubt. At least I do, wondering if I can really believe that this is althrough said, it would not be meant.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Are you married? Do you have kids?Do you plan to marry him if you're not?


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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

We have been together for 12 years, have 2 kids, twin daughters now 10 years old,
and 1 19year old daughter from my first marriage.

We are not married, as he never proposed me. Think he was to afraid to open up that deep, making himself that vunerable and get hurt.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

costa200 said:


> Not a cheater, but as a guy i can tell we have it in us to say whatever you want to hear if we think that will be worth some hot sx.


Yup.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

First accept that there is no good answer to this. There is no answer that anyone can give that will get you to, "Oh, I see, that makes sense." It doesn't exist so realize you are looking for the impossible. 

Having said that the short answer is that he felt it when he said it to her but that doesn't mean that he truly meant it. I know that sounds like cheater double speak - which is why there is no good answer - but it is pretty much the reality. Most people who cheat and are not sociopaths or serial cheaters end up living in two worlds for the duration of the affair - they compartmentalize it. Affair and OM/OW over here - wife and family over there; and they try very very hard to keep them separate. If you have basic morality and yet have somehow gotten yourself involved in an affair it's impossible to reconcile what you're doing in your head, the only way to continue on having your affair and having your marriage is to avoid reconciling it - hence compartmentalization. It's difficult to understand if you haven't done it.


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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

Sigma, thank you for your reply. So strange. My partner tells me when he tries try explain -> He says at that time it was for me like, you (referring to me) are a big house with many rooms where I live and walk. But there is also a very small room with a very small door. And I go into that very small room and do there what I intend to do and why that room is there. But when I go in I close the door, and I am not in the big house anymore or want to take anything from that big house into that small room. Vice Versa, when I leave that little room, I leave all what is there in there and close that door. And then live in the big house again.

Think that from my side I can rationally see that, but when I read something like that (wanting to live with her and teling her this); I feels for me that in this case, he was blowing up the big house so that he could remain living in that small room as that was at that was left, and where he then wanted to be. And think that is the part that hurts and hard to understand.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

That's a pretty good visualization. It can't make sense to you because for you it was always just one house. There was no "little room" for you so from your perspective what he said and did he did in the house. The truth is that your perspective is the correct one - there never was a "little room" anywhere other than in his head. He lied to himself and to his AP to create a place that didn't exist so he could continue on in his affair. 

Ultimately it's a cowards way of dealing with it, and it's lying to everyone including yourself. Again, the reason there really isn't a good explanation.


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## In_The_Wind (Feb 17, 2012)

The majority cheaters will say anything or do anything to get what this is why its so easy for them to throw the other under the bus so to speak when the **** hits the fan especially after they have already gotten what they wanted and as far as question I would say affair fog as well


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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

Sigma, does this mean that you do not believe in sincere regret and pain from the cheater? And that reconsile is not possible?

Sometimes just have the feeling that this relation will only have a change, if I put my hurt aside for his shame and pain. and just shut up and deal with it on my own and not bother him with it to avoid him having to think back on it. 
only not sure if what will remain of myself if I need to that? 
Can I loss myself totally for my love for him?


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

The bottom line is that you can never really explain or excuse the behavior. My husband is also struggling to make sense of how I behaved and that it doesn't make sense. 

You can't put aside your hurt and pain - it will cause ongoing resentment which will cause other issues. Trust me on that one.


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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

TSC, I know that but showing my pain, is not helping either. The pain sometimes drags me so deep, that I feel so much less then here and then I ask partner constant, did you do this as well with here, did you tell this to her as well. and it drives him nuts. 
This pain at the moment is almost, and will, succeed where she did not exceed -> end this relationship


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Leuven said:


> Sigma, does this mean that you do not believe in sincere regret and pain from the cheater? And that reconsile is not possible?
> 
> Sometimes just have the feeling that this relation will only have a change, if I put my hurt aside for his shame and pain. and just shut up and deal with it on my own and not bother him with it to avoid him having to think back on it.
> only not sure if what will remain of myself if I need to that?
> Can I loss myself totally for my love for him?


In fact quite the opposite. My wife and I are very successfully reconciling - she is an amazing woman to forgive me. Some will consider me biased in this but I very much believe that sincere regret is possible for a cheater and I know all to well the pain a truly remorseful cheater experiences (all deserved btw). 

I say compartmentalization is a cowards way of coping because it is what allows someone cheating to avoid facing what they are doing. It's hiding from your actions. It's not being able or willing to make a choice and accept the consequences of that choice. 

You're inclination to put your hurt aside, to "not bother him with it" is exactly the wrong reaction. If you do that any reconciliation is virtually guaranteed to fail IMO. Both of you need to deal with your hurt - and his. You need it to heal, to move forward, to be able to even begin to trust again. He needs it be held accountable for what he did. He needs to pay those prices so he takes full ownership of the damage he's caused and understands just how deep it is. You need so see him do this so you know he understands. Dealing with it is essential. What you describe above is referred to as "rug sweeping" and everyone here will tell you it is the wrong path.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

Leuven said:


> TSC, I know that but showing my pain, is not helping either. The pain sometimes drags me so deep, that I feel so much less then here and then I ask partner constant, did you do this as well with here, did you tell this to her as well. and it drives him nuts.
> This pain at the moment is almost, and will, succeed where she did not exceed -> end this relationship


Ignoring it will just force it all to come out in other ways. These emotions are toxic, it has to be dealt with in order to move on.

I can tell you that we ignored a lot of it for months and are right back to dealing with it all over again. We may not recover - that will be as a result of what I've done and the price for those actions.


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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

Then I can just hope that he will find a way to deal with it.
I am in pain and take the pain, to get it placed, and dealed with. Yes it hurts, yes I cry, and it takes time.
But to often when I ask, I get do you know what you are asking, why do you not let it go, why do you give her so much power, ...
I know that often he reacts harsh like this as he is ashamed for what he did, and it hurts him as well. 
so feel like with back against wall.
And yes, I have many triggers, I only need to walk out the door to see her home, where he ran of to and where they had their hidden world. So the pain is there constantly, no place to escape to
we Did no after 8 months decided to buy a new house, but can only move in about 8 months from now. Not sure if I will survive this till then. 
All triggers pulling me down, and half of the time he runs away from my pain.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Turning and facing his shame, taking ownership of it, is part of true remorse. Running from it, getting defensive, and hiding behind his pain are all signs that he has not truly taken ownership and worse; that he might not really be remorseful - only sorry that he got caught. I'm not saying that's the case, but based on what you posted it's possible. A truly remorseful cheater sooner or later arrives at a point that is basically, "I will give you whatever you need to recover, I do not care what it cost me. I did this, I will fix it." Some get there quicker than others, some not at all, just try to objectively evaluate where he is because there is no reconciliation without genuine remorse on his part.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

For me reading the email he sent, it was the _only-living-to-take-care-of-her-children_ part that sends up the BS meter, no man WANTS to take care of another man's kids, atleast not until he has spent enough quality time with them that they feel like his own family. He just said those words to get more enthusiastic sex from her.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Leuven said:


> ..., *if x would not catch us on act*, I would choise for you. As you are my reason for existance. I finally understand why I was born on this world. And my happiness can only be complete by taking care of you. I want to take care of you and your children, this is my only reason for living. .....


He's telling her she's the cake on the side but then he has to feed her ego telling her she's the most delicious cake he ever put his hands on.
What do you believe he'd get telling her she's nothing but a hole or a tool to feel better about himself or scape from the boring reality?
I've read the same lines in my sitch. It hurts like hell.
It's obvious your WH is very good at it. It's also obvious he loves to be that "persona", he felt great being like this. Affairs are very often about how they feel themselves in the affair more than the particular AP who provides those emotions. Role playing drives this kind of romantic affairs.

The bolded part is where he told her he would never leave you for her.
The rest is "soulmate schmoopies" nonsense. Complet bullsh!ting her (himself too?).


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## chumplady (Jul 27, 2012)

Not a cheater, but I think I can help.

You have to stop viewing him with YOUR moral lens. YOU would not say things you don't mean. YOU would not make promises you didn't intend to keep. Etc. 

He is not you. He does not share your values or your moral world view. To you there is TRUTH. To him, truth is situational. Always adaptable, malleable, depending on his objectives.



> I tell him, you can not write something like that without feeling that in your heart and brain and body and believe it. He says yes, maybe I did at that moment


See what I mean? 

People like this are usually disordered in some way. Read up on personality disorders at Out of the FOG - Personality Disorder Support

See if those 100 signs fit your partner.

Next, if the man has two children with you and never committed to you, IMO, that is a big red flag. The cheating makes it a banner. Get out, that's my advice to you. If you stick around, you're modeling terrible things to your daughters about relationships and self respect and abuse. 

Infidelity, IMO, is abuse. 

He cannot take those words back. And whatever words he replaces them with by explanation or promise are meaningless. Because nothing has meaning to him. It's all about him and what he wants. 

I'm sorry, that hurts. But just because you and the truth do not matter to him, does NOT mean you are not lovable or worthy of respect and kindness. He is just not someone capable of such a relationship.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Every human I know has way more than one of those 100 - some more than others. 

Not everyone who cheats has a clinical personality disorder.


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## chumplady (Jul 27, 2012)

People who have a situational approach to the truth ain't normal. And yes, not everyone has a personality disorder, but some cheaters do (especially serial cheaters) and it helps considerably to know what you're dealing with.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

chumplady said:


> People who have a situational approach to the truth ain't normal. And yes, not everyone has a personality disorder, but some cheaters do (especially serial cheaters) and it helps considerably to know what you're dealing with.


Completely agreed. I also agreed with your point that his failure to commit with years and two kids invested is... worrisome.


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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

thank you all for your replies. Sigma i showed him your reply, and he opened the discussion yesterday on it himself. He was really cracked and down, depressed. Stating that he feels so d*** lost as he can not proove anything, he cannot proof that he does not love her (anymore) or never really did. He cannot proof that what he had with her could never be comparred with what we have. He cannot proof what she is worth against me, etc
He says he cannot understand himself why he ever 'loved' her, he sid he wanted to stop all the time, but just could not, he wanted to be with her, and when then with her, he wanted to get out. He says in that chaos, the only constant was you. 
He knows that answers would help me, but he does not have the answers himself, so he feels lost.


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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

Thank you Acadabo!


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## jenny1981 (Jun 14, 2012)

Leuven said:


> thank you all for your replies. Sigma i showed him your reply, and he opened the discussion yesterday on it himself. He was really cracked and down, depressed. Stating that he feels so d*** lost as he can not proove anything, he cannot proof that he does not love her (anymore) or never really did. He cannot proof that what he had with her could never be comparred with what we have. He cannot proof what she is worth against me, etc
> He says he cannot understand himself why he ever 'loved' her, he sid he wanted to stop all the time, but just could not, he wanted to be with her, and when then with her, he wanted to get out. He says in that chaos, the only constant was you.
> He knows that answers would help me, but he does not have the answers himself, so he feels lost.


I'm sorry to have to ask you this but do you actually believe anything that comes out of his mouth? Are they still seeing eachother and if there not how did it end? Maybe h was just telling her what she wanted to hear or maybe he's just telling you what you want to hear. I would be very hard pressed to ever truly trust him again and believe me it will slowly drive you crazy, I know I was never able to fully trust my exh after he cheated.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Leuven said:


> thank you all for your replies. Sigma i showed him your reply, and he opened the discussion yesterday on it himself. He was really cracked and down, depressed. Stating that he feels so d*** lost as he can not proove anything, he cannot proof that he does not love her (anymore) or never really did. He cannot proof that what he had with her could never be comparred with what we have. He cannot proof what she is worth against me, etc
> He says he cannot understand himself why he ever 'loved' her, he sid he wanted to stop all the time, but just could not, he wanted to be with her, and when then with her, he wanted to get out. He says in that chaos, the only constant was you.
> He knows that answers would help me, but he does not have the answers himself, so he feels lost.


It may benefit the both of you, if he would attend IC to learn more about himself and his beliefs, reactions etc.

It IS his burden that he cannot proof anything, but that should not stop him from trying with all of his heart. You may not believe it for a long time, but if he is consistent, you may get to a point where the insecurity is tolerable, and you can reconnect.

Don't let him get away with "You won't believe me no matter what I do, so I might as well stop trying", if he wan't to continue your relationship.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Leuven,

I wouldn't put to much stock in the words between your cheater and their AP. It's fantasyland... they will say/write anything to advance their affair. Remember, it's all about selfishness and justification on their part. 

Below is a small part of the crap that my wife wrote about me to her last AP, and old BF from college. Hurtful, yes, this was after 30 years of marriage. She had not seen or talked to him in 30+ years. It's all fantasy.

"What you said about building a life together means so much to me. I think that has prob been the biggest disappointment in my marriage - that we really have no partnership and have build nothing together - I mean, our kids have done* well, which is a huge deal, but as far as the two of us there's just nothing."


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## jenny1981 (Jun 14, 2012)

RWB said:


> Leuven,
> 
> I wouldn't put to much stock in the words between your cheater and their AP. It's fantasyland... they will say/write anything to advance their affair. Remember, it's all about selfishness and justification on their part.
> 
> ...



I agree with you and those same people will tell their spouse exactly what they want to hear as well to save their a$$! Goes both ways I believe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Leuven said:


> Stating that he feels so d*** lost as he can not proove anything, he cannot proof that he does not love her (anymore) or never really did. He cannot proof that what he had with her could never be comparred with what we have. He cannot proof what she is worth against me, etc


In this he's right - and he's wrong. He's right in that there is no silver bullet, no magic card he can pull out that will instantly prove what he now professes and put you at ease. Not there, isn't going to happen. He's wrong in that he can prove it. He proves it through his actions. Is this easy or quick? Not even a little bit. It is a very long, painful, and difficult road to prove what you know to be true to the person you were supposed to love and cherish who justifiably no longer trust you. It sucks, but it's part of the price of cheating. This - right here - is the "heavy lifting" of reconciliation for cheaters. It's where we ask cheaters, "Are you committed to reconciliation?"




Leuven said:


> He says he cannot understand himself why he ever 'loved' her


Well, it's his job to damn well figure it out. Again, it's part of the price of cheating. He has to look at himself in the mirror and face what he's done until he understands why. He has to do that so both you and he can be comfortable it won't happen again. If it's left as, "I was just stupid, I don't know why?" No progress has been made and he's just as likely to step off the same cliff again. He may need individual counseling to work through this, he may not. Either way, it's really important that he does. 



Leuven said:


> he sid he wanted to stop all the time, but just could not, he wanted to be with her, and when then with her, he wanted to get out. He says in that chaos, the only constant was you.


This is going to sound like more cheater double speak to many, but I get this. I experienced the same thing. It goes back to compartmentalization. All it really means is that he was clear headed enough to know what he was doing was wrong but he was too weak to end it. Been there, done that myself. Not a pleasant memory. 



Leuven said:


> He knows that answers would help me, but he does not have the answers himself, so he feels lost.


So he needs to get to work finding the answers. This can often times mean just talking through it with you. I found that one of the most helpful things for coming up with answers for my wife was simply being willing to talk about it openly with her. It took a lot of time thinking all by myself to, but talking with my wife really helped provide a perspective outside my head and help me see it all objectively. I'm assuming you know him as well, or better, than anyone else - you're input can be really valuable. This does create a little of a quandary for you though in that he can't explore the answers talking to you and defend himself or rebuild you at the same time. If you fall apart or start to berate him his focus will go to you. It's understandable and it will happen, just understand that the less emotional and more conversational you can keep the conversations the more productive they'll be for both of you.


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## chumplady (Jul 27, 2012)

> He says he cannot understand himself why he ever 'loved' her, he sid he wanted to stop all the time, but just could not, he wanted to be with her, and when then with her, he wanted to get out. He says in that chaos, the only constant was you.


He's not taking responsibility and he's doing a subtle blame shift with the "poor me!" attitude of he cannot prove that he didn't mean all the things he told the OW.

He SAID them. He had a goal in mind. He CHOSE the chaos.

It's cake eating. The dynamic is explained here. The Unified Theory of Cake


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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

RWB, thank you for sharing this and for your support!


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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

Sigma, thank you as well. Your support here helps me as it shows that I am not going nuts by following my instincts that tell me to believe him and in him.


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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

Chumplady. I feel very sorry for you. You must have been hurt very deep. And yes I agree there are persons existing that really play games and do not care about others. 
But please do free up you mind and bitterness, not everybody is like that. Some people just make a mistake, a huge,killing, devistation mistake that breaks a lot and sometimes even the people they love. But they are not bad persons, there are a lot of good people in this world, and you need to keep believing in that.
Keep on showing that you care, give love, because love creates love, hatred only creates hatred.
And I prefer a world in love, not in hatred.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Leuven said:


> Sigma, thank you as well. Your support here helps me as it shows that I am not going nuts by following my instincts that tell me to believe him and in him.


I have to add one caveat here. Believe in him, yes. But do not automatically believe what he says. The sad truth is that cheaters lie - believe his actions. If his words match his actions - the longer that goes on the more you can start to believe what he says. Just be careful and be skeptical until he earns otherwise.


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## Grey Goose (Aug 23, 2012)

Where's THe Bishop when we need him? Would love to see his response here.


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## chumplady (Jul 27, 2012)

> And I prefer a world in love, not in hatred.


Me too. And that is why I left a cheater and married a good man, who is faithful and commits to me.

I'm absolutely believe in love. HEALTHY love. Love based in reciprocity and kindness and mutual respect. 

Cheating is abuse, IMO. Your partner told another woman that he loved her and wanted a life with her and wanted to raise her kids. He is either lying to her, you, or both of you -- for his own selfish ends. He cannot make sense of such UNloving acts. He operates from self interest and cake eating. Someone cannot love you and behave that way, no more than they can push you down a flight of stairs and tell you that they "love" you. 

Because I am asking you to look at the reality of his actions, and not what you WANT to see (love), does not make me a hater.

It makes me someone who cares enough to give a perfect stranger some hard-won wisdom. I'm on the other side of this -- and happier for it. 

I wish the same for you. There _are_ good people out there.


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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

I am really happy for you that you have found back happiness and true love.
But as you state, we are complete strangers. I know who my partner is and I also know that what is as a person, I will not find anymore


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## chumplady (Jul 27, 2012)

Hey, well listen to the complete strangers here that tell you what you want to hear. I'll bow off your thread. 

Good luck to you.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

chumplady said:


> Cheating is abuse


Absolutely. However there are all kinds of abuse. Alcoholism can be abuse to.



chumplady said:


> He is either lying to her, you, or both of you -- for his own selfish ends.


Agreed - he also is lying to himself. 



chumplady said:


> He operates from self interest and cake eating.


He operated from this while in his affair for sure. That does not mean this is necessarily his standard operation procedure.



chumplady said:


> Someone cannot love you and behave that way


Eh - I understand the sentiment here but that's not exactly correct. I never stopped loving my wife, but I did stop giving myself to her while I was involved in my EA.




chumplady said:


> There _are_ good people out there.


Implying that because he cheated her H is not a good person. Sorry that's just not automatically true. It is certainly possible and raises the issue but one instance of cheating does not automatically make him a bad person.


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## Desperate_Housewife (Oct 15, 2012)

Leuven said:


> ..., if x would not catch us on act, I would choise for you. As you are my reason for existance. I finally understand why I was born on this world. And my happiness can only be complete by taking care of you. I want to take care of you and your children, this is my only reason for living. .....


 ick... That seriously reeks of desperation. Men will say anything for a piece of ass. I doubt he meant any of it to be honest.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Leuven, you've heard of the expression "all is fair in love and war" right? well consider this "all is Bull**** in the land of unicorns and rainbows" aka fairytale land. so the words he gave her during that time is all based in fairytale land (land of unicorns and rainbows). Much like he split himself into two people in order to continue this affair, he split his emotions. some real, some total bs. The problem in an affair is the WS cant tell the difference. 

For example, my fWH said he 'loved' his AP. Well the truth is he didnt even know her. Didnt know her kids names, didnt know anything about the REAL her. So, How can he have 'loved' her. The simple answer is- he didnt. But that doesnt change what he believed at the time. At the time he was sure she was the most perfect woman he'd ever met. Its easy to make that leap when they dont really know her. They havent held her head while she pukes, they havent raised kids together, payed bills together. she hasnt nagged him to take out the trash. He doesnt have to deal with her 'issues' because if the truth is told, he doesnt really care about her issues. They care about getting that 'fix' and do what it takes to get it. Even if it requires 'convincing themselves' that they love this person they dont even know. 

So long story short here- when my H said he thought he loved her I was sure it was the end. But then a friend pointed out to me that at least I was getting what he believed to be the truth for the first time in a very long time. so open the door for him to talk. YES it will SUCK sometimes. But if you want him to come back to you and you think him worthy-open that door, hold your emotions and listen.

Btw, forgive me if its already been said but how long ago was dday? what about NC- are you sure? And If he has been an otherwise good man dont let some bitter people who are in alot of pain drag you down any further than you already feel.


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## Madman1 (Oct 24, 2012)

You gotta put the pennys in the slot for the gum balls to come out!
Tell the girl what she wants to hear because if you can get in her head you can get in her pants.


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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

DD day was 30th March, but I new since end February, but he finally told the story 30th March.
He does say that he truely believed that he loved her at that moment and I know, with knowing what type of f**, mentally ill person she is, I know how she played him. 
I am not stating this just out of anger towards her, the first time I met her, 2 years before, I knew she was danger and I failed protecting my family as she all used them to get what she needed.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

Leuven said:


> DD day was 30th March, but I new since end February, but he finally told the story 30th March.
> He does say that he truely believed that he loved her at that moment and I know, with knowing what type of f**, mentally ill person she is, I know how she played him.
> I am not stating this just out of anger towards her, the first time I met her, 2 years before, I knew she was danger and I failed protecting my family as she all used them to get what she needed.


Don't blame yourself for this. My Hs AP was also a nutter. She went out of her way to get him. She stalked my FB page and changed herself to be like me, she started dressing like me and told my H that she liked the same things as me etc....

I feel your pain. H and I are successfully reconciling (8 months now) but it still hurts me to know that he said he lived her and was willing (at one point) to lose us all to be with her. My H and I actually did separate, the A was exposed and after only 3 weeks of 'living the dream' he had finished it! Why? Because he didn't love her, he didn't want her kids and he realised how he had been played. It was ALL a lie! 

Yes words hurt, but look at Hs actions now. What are his actions telling you?
You should know by now all the things he should be doing if the R is true. Only you know if be is truly remorseful, only you know if he is willing to do all the hard fro work make this better. What is your gut telling you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

My gut tells me he works, he works hard, and works hard on us and himself to totally get what happened. He admits his mistakes and what happened to get this far. Last conversation we had day before yesterday, opened again a lot for him. Puzzle pieces came to place and I for the first time felt, all ties are now really cut through. He did not get the picture himself, and my gut feelings felt that.
Issue is that she lives in our street, and still she provokes. And I fell this is not over yet, she is not letting him go, not sure if even for him, maybe just revenge towards me as her game did not end the way she wanted. 
Just afraid, konwing my partner that if she comes for support, he will not be strong enough to push her away. Not because he loves her, but just because he is good, kind man, and would act from humanity. And she is strong and intelligent enough to work something out


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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> Eh - I understand the sentiment here but that's not exactly correct. I never stopped loving my wife, but I did stop giving myself to her while I was involved in my EA.
> 
> 
> Sigma, does this mean that you loved 2 women at the same time in the same role? Have you truely loved your EA?


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

You need to send this woman a very clear message to keep away! You both do. This isn't a time for H to be weak he needs to be strong and protect his family. If he is really serious about your R then there needs to be no weak boundaries now!
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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

Problem is the law. When he told the story, I went to her to ask her to get of the back of my kids and him. As I knew that she was manipulating them all. She attacked me, I pushed her away and left.
She called H, and said if you do not come to me I will go to police and accuse her (so me) of attacking me. She waited for a week. My H did not go or contact her in anyway and she pressed charges. So whatever I do or he would do would be seen as provocation and would do damage to my case that still needs to come forward to court.
I send her en email, very cynical but nice about 3 weeks ago.
I am still asking my H to do the same. As for me he has never broken up with her. Told her, I break up with you, not because of my wife, but just because you are what you are. 
Many say, never allow your H to get in touch with her again, but I think that me as well as H need this to enable us to move on.
I need him to tell her this, and to really free up my space again. 
For me, although I know he has given me back my place as wife, more then 200%, he has not taken it back for her.
May sound silly and strange, but this is how I feel it


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

No it doesn't sound silly or strange. You both need closure. H needs to end it officially. Have you discussed this with him?
What's his take on it?
When my H finished his A the OW freaked out and was quit scary for about 2 weeks but she then gave up. It was quite amusing really. It showed H what a complete nutter she was. She didn't do herself any favours. My H hates hysterical women! Lol!
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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

We have been discussing this, from start. He was not willing to do at start. He rejected it few times and did not understand the need, but gradually over the weeks and months it changed.
He now even states that he needs to do it in first instance for himself. And I think that looking over the whole process, he is now indeed ready for it. 
So I am waiting now for him to put this into action. However must admit, will only believe it when I see the email, that has indeed taken this action.
OW freaded out as well, even during the the whole A, whenever he broke up (his breaking up, not that I believe in it, as he never really broke up, just more a saying, this should better end, and then continue the A) And she still freaks out now. Yesterday she blocked me with her car when I was trying to get out from my parkway. 
Like just not standing still but driving so slow that I was not able to get out backwards, and thus had to wait till she was passed.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Leuven said:


> sigma1299 said:
> 
> 
> > Eh - I understand the sentiment here but that's not exactly correct. I never stopped loving my wife, but I did stop giving myself to her while I was involved in my EA.
> ...


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

sigma1299 said:


> So how could I love my wife and continue to betray her? That's what makes an affair so hard to understand and so painful to participate in...
> 
> The affair compartment is unicorns and rainbows, its fantasy. Inside affair land I don't think about the fact that I'm betraying my wife, or the fact that I have turned my marriage upside down, or the fact that I have put at risk literally everything that is important to me...
> 
> It's the same during the affair to - the escape simply over powers the guilt.


Sigma, 

This reasoning is exactly what my wife has explained to me why she went from affair to affairr (serial cheater). She said she was in so much guilt for lying and sleeping around during her 1st affair. Once I knew the truth, I countered... "Then why walk right into another if you were so ashamed after the 1st?"

She said while in the fantasy of being with another lover she didn't feel guilty or ashamed at all. All she thought about was how good it made her feel about herself, temporary. Basically a Band-Aid over a wound that would not heal.

Very confusing from the outside looking in.


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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

Indeed, I can rational and even in the mind of my partner understand this how and why. But for me there was no escape and it happened in my real live, in my fantasie of a partner that would protect me.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Leuven said:


> Indeed, I can rational and even in the mind of my partner understand this how and why. But for me there was no escape and it happened in my real live, in my fantasie of a partner that would protect me.


The most important thing here is for you to realize a couple of things. 1. as hard as it is to hear- this isnt about you-its 100% on him. 2. You are NOT alone. I have been where you are. 

You said he is working hard to R. Tell us more about that if you can.


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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

When he told his story, he was in shock, real shock. He also said I am sorry and do not want to give up on you. And I knew he was telling the truth. That he would really try, knowing if he would be stong enough to do so, no I did not. But at least the will to do was there.

We cried and talked, not easy first weeks or even months cause he often tried to escape, or get angry I was questioning things he did not want to reveal. My guts told me and also cause I know him, he gets angry, not towards me but to himself. It was not easy for me, but I refused to give up and not to give up on him or myself.
Yes I did somethings wrong, like pushing myself away for him, and I can tell you I went deep, very deep. But I had no option, even if this would go wrong, I at least wanted to make sure that he would be well enough to go on. Myself was the last concern I had. 
Gradually he opened, cause I kept on forcing him to look into himself. Think in these 8 months we had 2 moments that really made a change, and that pushed him forward.
I am not stating that he did bad himself, he was commited to stop and work 200% for us, but if I would have listened to him at start, there would have been no talking and he would still be here. But I would have lost myself, and he would not have seen the danger she is, and would not realise what he realises now. 

I think what I learned here, and some I think will shoot me here on the TAM for this.

That reconciliation is not so much about the betrayed given forgiveness to the guilty party, for me reconciliation is helping the betrayer to forgive himself, free him up, and only then he will be able to support the betrayed and then you both can move on.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Leuven said:


> When he told his story, he was in shock, real shock. He also said I am sorry and do not want to give up on you. And I knew he was telling the truth. That he would really try, knowing if he would be stong enough to do so, no I did not. But at least the will to do was there.
> 
> We cried and talked, not easy first weeks or even months cause he often tried to escape, or get angry I was questioning things he did not want to reveal. My guts told me and also cause I know him, he gets angry, not towards me but to himself. It was not easy for me, but I refused to give up and not to give up on him or myself.
> Yes I did somethings wrong, like pushing myself away for him, and I can tell you I went deep, very deep. But I had no option, even if this would go wrong, I at least wanted to make sure that he would be well enough to go on. Myself was the last concern I had.
> ...


that last paragraph is insightful and true with the exception of when you say that R is not so much about the Bs giving forgiveness to the guilty party. I think its ALL of the things you listed. 1. Helping him forgive himself 2. I totally understand the 'freeing him up' phrase- and I agree 3.BUT this is also about his deserving your forgiveness. Asking your forgiveness. And continuing to earn your forgiveness. 

Now when we talk about forgiveness- its a VERY complicated thing. It ebbs and flows with the anger, and pain. Its not something,IMO, that happens all at once but rather slowly over time with him showing himself worthy of it. And yes, he needs your help to get there, just as my H did. No doubt about it. This cannot be a one way street. BUT HE must do the heavy lifting. 

I'd say that most who would "shoot you" here on TAM- arent R'ing. Everyone who has been through R and chooses to R knows its alot of give and take or it will never work.

some days are bad for me and he has to step up. Some days are bad for him and I have to step up. But the one thing we both know is that we want this to work. It takes two. I couldnt agree more.


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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

Thank you for your support.

As said before I had already fogiven him as I knew what happened. If I had no done that by then, then I woudl have never been to do what I did, choise for him and try to get back together.
I bought him a ring, we are not married, and I know marrying would mean a lot to him. 
A ring like a wedding ring like, with an engraving that shows him that I have forgiven him. A ring for him to look at when he is having a hard time and hope it would give him the support to realise what he is fighting for as well.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Leuven said:


> Thank you for your support.
> 
> As said before I had already fogiven him as I knew what happened. If I had no done that by then, then I woudl have never been to do what I did, choise for him and try to get back together.
> I bought him a ring, we are not married, and I know marrying would mean a lot to him.
> A ring like a wedding ring like, with an engraving that shows him that I have forgiven him. A ring for him to look at when he is having a hard time and hope it would give him the support to realise what he is fighting for as well.


good for you. But with that said, remember you need to keep your eye on the ball so to speak. Check up on him once in a while to ensure what you believe to be true actually is. 

Hold him to a higher standard. you have that right now. And Best of luck. I hope he likes the ring. Great idea!


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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

My fear will keep me tense ......

thank you and wish you the same!


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

canttrustu said:


> Now when we talk about forgiveness- its a VERY complicated thing. It ebbs and flows with the anger, and pain. Its not something,IMO, that happens all at once but rather slowly over time with him showing himself worthy of it. And yes, he needs your help to get there, just as my H did. No doubt about it. This cannot be a one way street. BUT HE must do the heavy lifting.


Leuven, what Cantrust says about the ups and downs and not all happening at once but slowly is oh so true for me and my wife. We are 3+ years into R, and there are times that I just get caught up with emotions and thoughts for very little things that remind me and "touch" me in painful ways. Forgiveness of an affair is not a "one time" thing. It is a conscious act that is repeated on a daily basis.


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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

True, work continues, and there are triggers and there is pain.
but the forgiveness was done over one month time, me knowing, he not telling. There good days and bad days
Forgiveness for me does not mean, not pay attention or let it just all roll out. And it is also a reminder to him, to not screw up again, as forgiveness is given only once.


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