# looking for advice about sex for survivor of CSA and Rape



## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

I am kinda new here. I have responded to a few threads here. Even created a few. I think I am starting to feel a little safer with you guys. 

I am looking for both male and female input. I want to know if you may have any words of wisdom for how to over come sexual issues for those with CSA (child sexual abuse) and rape in there past. I seem to be having a most difficult time getting past all this stuff. 

I have read a few things here that obviously didn't take the person into consideration who have been threw rape or CSA. To help others understand, to help a loved one who has been in that situation or your self in that situation do you have any words of advice. 

I will tell you my hang ups in the bed room: 

1. I have a hypersensitive response to touch. It scares me for the most part. (I was made to stand and be an object for some one to do horrible things to as a child/teen) So I don't really like touch that much. I freeze and don't return affection and sexual touches. 

2. I dissociate after a few minutes of sex. I turn my brain off, and I turn it back on later to see if my H is done with me. If not I just turn it off again. 

3. I am always thinking "please just hurry up and be done with me". I cannot receive pleasure, I don't feel worthy. I cannot let down my guard down. (see the thread about consuming alcohol to have a more willing partner that someone made) 

4. The medications I am on have killed my sex drive. Zoloft. Darn that evil medicine. I hardly ever want to have sex. 

5. I have performance anxiety. If I don't have "O"'s he feels hurt, like he can't get that to happen with his own wife. So I feel a tremendous amount of anxiety. 

That is the biggest part of the issues I/We have with sex. 
For me combating those issues:
1. I have been known to consume alcohol in order to relax a little.
2. The egg timer is a great asset in my case. (see the egg timer thread someone made) I set it and my H knows to stop after a certain period of time. (20 min is all the receiving of pleasure I can handle, I fear he will go on for an unknown amount of time till he gets the desired result form me, "O"s) 
3. The T told us to stop having sex and to let me be the one to decide when we have sex. It felt so good to know I didn't have to have sex to live out my wifely duties, that alone helped our sex life. It relieved the pressure from me, and helped to make boring duty sex go away.
4. I have affirming messages taped to the wall. So i can try to stay present little longer by reading those reaffirming statements. 

I know this is a lot of info, but is there any other survivors out there who have words of wisdom or advice that may help please share. What helps you, what helps your spouse, anything. 

I just want to have sex and like it, is that to much to ask. 
Sorry this was long .


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I don't know that I have helpful advice, but wanted to say how sorry I am that you went through something like that.

2 things I've really learned from this board - how much being sexless hurts people and how far and deep the effects of sexual abuse go.

I have some evidence that I was sexually abused, but have no memory of it. I can't say if I did or didn't for sure. Circumstantial evidence makes a good case something happened to me. 

In any case I have been to therapy many times and even was hypnotized once to see if anything came up. I finally had to admit I was never going to know for sure and was going to need to make the best dealing with the present, whatever happened in my childhood. 

Anyway, that was just supposed to leave you know you aren't alone - especially dealing with sexual issues.

Two things I have been working on are letting my husband in - emotional intimacy - and also staying focused during sex, in the moment - not letting my mind wander. 

I think the fact that you are able to O at all is great, that is something I can rarely achieve. However it sounds more like this is something you feel you must do for your husbands satisfaction and not your own. That is a bit concerning. 

Hugs for sharing, that is tough.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Do you have kids? If yes, then you already know that touch IS something you can do, easily. It's just a matter of extending those good feelings to a sexual situation.

In order to cope in the past you've gone from hyper vigilance to anxiety to dissociative states. You have to STOP all of it!

Mind set followed by practice, followed by progression. Start with the beginning. Stop hyper vigilance. To do that...Take back your right to hold your husbands hand and feel good about it. Don't let your abuser take that from you! Start with touch, simple hand holding. Hold hands while watching TV, walking to the car, everywhere and anywhere. 

After a while, when he brushes your hand you no longer react with hyper vigilance, nor anxiety.

Once you can do that, progress to hugging. Same method as above.

But sex is much much more complicated.

Get comfortable in your own skin touching yourself while naked. First you just touch yourself in a non sexual way. Then you touch yourself in a sexual way. Then you do this without any clothing on, but under the covers, then you do it on top of the covers. Then you do it in from of the mirror. You do this every single day.

There's more, but this above will likely take several months alone.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

Miss Scarlette, I am sorry that you have had such a hard time getting in touch with what happened to you. It think sometimes we will never know all the facts. Guess that is just Gods way of protecting us from what he cant handle. 

I wish you all the best in finding answers and the peace within. 


Thinking about sex, I wish I could keep my mind present and stay in the now. Any suggestions on how to do that. 

Most of the time when I have "O"s it is usually alone. It is seldom with my H. 
I DO feel like I have to have O's to satisfy my hubby. If there is no "O" then he doesn't feel like he did a god job.


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## TikiKeen (Oct 14, 2013)

Two types of therapy are fantastic with this: one is cognitive behavioral therapy, and another is EMDR, which is a form of intense re-living the abuse in order to desensitize to it. Both must be guided by professionals.

Honestly, as a survivor married to a survivor who went back into denial...go to intense IC with a trauma specialist. You can find those at DV shelters' counseling programs. You can learn all the tools in the world, pray as much as you want, talk to friends you trust all you want, but nothing replaces solid guidance from a non-biased therapist whose job is only to help you heal. Nothing was accomplished in MC until IC/T alone had gotten me to make progress.

I still have shadows of my past show up, and right now it's hypervigilance and distrust. I fought long and hard to get better, and staying better is a matter of awareness and maintenance. But first, the major stuff must be dealt with so a baseline can be achieved.

If you're dissociating, do not have sex, and stop the moment the dissociation begins. That is vital. For me, the warning sign is if I'm hypervigilant or easily startled within the few hours before attempting sex. Taking Zoloft just before bed worked best for me; its half life allowed for a bit of ability to be aroused to show up just before it was time to take it again.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

TIKI - Thank you for responding. I have done some T but I forget what it is called. You roll your eyes, tap your head and repeat phrases to your self. That might have helped. But I am not positive. I wish I could be more positive on that one. 

I do take Zoloft. I have found that I can take it and leave about 36 hours in between missed dosages. So I can delay a dosage somewhat and if I know we are going to have sex then that increases the likelihood of "O"'s 

My H and I do MC and it has helped a lot. My H may have Aspurgers. So things are very black and white for him. He has a very hard time grasping the symbolism of stuff. He is not the most faithful in going to T when we have been talking about the CSA stuff. He doesn't understand the feelings he has, and the relevance of the feelings I have. 

The marriage T has been a blessing, she specializes in Trauma's. So from time to time she and I have done individual T. That has helped a lot as well. I continue to have dreams, and nightmares, and partial flashbacks. 

I do wish I could stop having sex the moment I start to dissociate. I fear my H is at his breaking point, in our relationship. I don't think that would go over so well. I just "go away" mentally or he knows he has a matter of minutes to be done with me. 

We struggle with things out side of the bed room as well. We have been married for quite a while, and I didn't tell my H about the rapes or the CSA until a year ago. He had no idea. He had no idea the things he was doing were triggering me, and were very closely related to the rapes I endured. That took a heavy toil on our marriage. I also saw the things my H did and said as abusive. I know that the PTSD changes the way I see things. In reality he may have been borderline abusive and the PTSD aggravated it. I may be making more out of it then it really is, mountains out of moles hills so to speak. My H has been borderline abusive and the T agrees, with emotional and verbal abuse and lots of control. He isn't physically abusive. The MC is helping a lot with that. I really don't think he knew the power of his own words, due to my past and his aspurgers. 

We have more then a few hurdles to cross. My past his aspurgers, my PTSD, and the past spousal abuse. 


ANON PINK - I so wish I could just stop the dissociation, All of it the hyper vigilance and all. I do not know how to stop something I cannot always control. I dissociate and have no idea I am "gone" sometimes. The T has seen me do it in our sessions. When I come back to, she will ask me "where did I go" and I don't know. I apparently spend a lot of time dissociated. I lose track of hours. I think backwards over the days, and I can;t remember very much. (usually at super stressful times)

My dreams bother me a lot. Now the new phase I seem to be in is when my H and I do have sex, I have nightmares that night. Nightmares/flashbacks. Parts of information, things that I can't quite put together. That makes having sex a little more difficult.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Big Momma, if you are disassociating that frequently and for that long, you should NOT be following any advice on the internet, at all. Talk to your therapist about this.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

ANON - I have a great T who specializes in trauma's. It is a very slow process of overcoming things. I'm just looking for things she may have missed or other suggestions to help the process along. This definitely not a substitution for good therapy. I agree, if anyone else has issues similar to mine, the internet is not the place to go for help. Working on things like this is certainly not something to be dealt with on your own and needs to be guided by a professional. 

rydellluy - I am sorry you have evidence of CSA. My main advice to you is to seek a professionals help.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

What works the best? Forgiveness. Have you tried to go there? 

What works next best? Facing your fears. But you have to do that with boldness, even if you have to simulate that feeling. Facing fears with a cringing attitude will worsen hem. You gotta run at them. This is something you need to do without help, as much as is possible. 

Also, you could try looking up an NLP practitioner. They tend to be very good at helping people overcome this sort of stuff. Find a reputable one, though. They're not all equally helpful.


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## TikiKeen (Oct 14, 2013)

OP, I'd be wary of NLP/EFT/tapping etc. There is no science to back any up those modalities.

MSP, suggesting any sex abuse survivor tough it out and handle it alone is dangerous. Abusers use silence, isolation and shame of telling to keep victims in the victim-think, and literally in victim situational placement. Unless you have experience with CSA, etc., please stop suggesting ideas which are damaging. 

OP, do not walk through this alone, and please don't seek out healing which does not have peer-reviewed and measurable success. Tapping, etc is essentially nothing more than positive affirmations. The idea that meridians or any self-hypnosis (or anything less than learning new long-term coping tools) can cure/totally heal PTSD is bunk.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

I tried the tapping thing. I can't tell any difference. I can't say things worsened though, but can't say they got any better either. 

There is no way in the world I would tackle this issue without the help of my T. She has been my life line. She takes my calls when she can, she texts, she works in extra visits, she always calls me back. She knows how important and how scary this is. No way I could do it with out her. 

I have tried forgiveness. I forgive the guy who raped me. I feel badly for him and what someone may have done to him to make him think that what he did was ok. People don't just do what he did for no reason. I have recently seen him in a store. I didn't approach him but I just watched him. He has 3 little boys. 2 which appear to have some autistic issue, a one who is wheelchair bound. He appeared to be the most loving father to those little boys. that just made me think about what someone did to him to cause him to do the things he did to me. That really helped soften my heart and see him in a new way. 

As for the CSA, I just have a lot of symptoms. I have some partial memories. I keep having parts of memories come to me as flashbacks or just really strange feelings that say this is not a dream, maybe this did happen. I especially have dreams/flashbacks after me and my H have sex. Dreams not related to what we were doing, but dreams that are sexual and scary in nature. It doesn't exactly make sex a place you want to go. 

TIKI - thank you for your suggestions and advice, I appreciate it a lot.


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## TikiKeen (Oct 14, 2013)

I'd talk with the T about holding off on sex until you're not triggered by it any more. If thinking about it is enough to trigger you, then the self-respecting and self-loving thing to do is to not partake, but try some other non-sexual bonding instead. Maybe ask the T if she can have your H in for a session after you've done goal-setting about that, so she can help you tell him what this new boundary is. it reassures him that it's temporary and shows him you're in T to heal, and are still committed to the marriage.

For partners, not knowing what are your triggers and not knowing in a general way what's going on with your therapy is scary stuff. They feel out of the loop, yet know it's not their loop to be in until you invite them in.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Id be estatic to be limited to even five mins on an egg timer for penetration
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

treyvion - (((HUGGS)))) sorry for what you are going thew. 

TIKKI - We have tried preplanning for sex and that is a very bad idea. I start to dissociate from that point on and end up crying during sex. The T has suggested to leave it up to me as when to initiate it. He really shouldn't come to me and ask me for it. 

The thing is I almost never want to have sex. Instead sometimes I totally don't feel like doing it, other times I could take it or leave it. That is when I try to approach my H. I knew males have a greater drive for sex then females do. 

What would be some examples of non sexual bonding?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Big Mama said:


> treyvion - (((HUGGS)))) sorry for what you are going thew.
> 
> TIKKI - We have tried preplanning for sex and that is a very bad idea. I start to dissociate from that point on and end up crying during sex. The T has suggested to leave it up to me as when to initiate it. He really shouldn't come to me and ask me for it.
> 
> ...


Can you give your H a full body massage followed by a happy ending? This might work to help him feel loved and cherished by you while your body remains in a safe zone.

No sexual bonding would be activities in which you must lean on and rely on each other to get things accomplished. For instance and obstacle course, a home improvement project, working out together while spotting one another...


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Big Mama, I don't know if anything I have to say will be helpful, so please ignore if not. I agree with Tiki and Anon that this is too big for over-the-Internet advice. But a few things stood out for me in what you said:

Dissociation is a common coping mechanism. Not a great one, to be sure, but still one nonetheless. It provides a "safe harbour", and I think it's important to validate it as such, not to stay there and keep repeating it, but to recognize the role it plays in your life, to give you momentum and space to find new safe harbors --healthier and happier ones. 

The fact that you view your spouse as an abuser is huge, IMHO, because it means you haven't had an opportunity to experience an alternate safe harbor, and so are repeating the same patterns of the past. He triggers you and you retreat to your familiar zone. This pattern absolutely needs to break for healing to truly happen. 
Is he willing and able to help you find your safe harbors? This question needs an honest assessment.

You talk about an inability to stand "receiving" pleasure, and I can't help but wonder if you've thought much about taking it. And by "taking it", I don't mean giving to your h what he wants, or doing things that you are "supposed" to enjoy, but genuinely taking it, for yourself, on your own terms, things that genuinely make you happy. This can be sexual or non-sexual, everything from a foot massage and sauna to kickboxing lessons. 

The thing about receiving pleasure is that it's passive, and decided by someone else, and I can totally see how this would reinforce the "object" feeling, especially in a sexual context.

But taking it means that it is yours and yours only, and you have a right to that.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Big Mama said:


> I have tried forgiveness. I forgive the guy who raped me. I feel badly for him and what someone may have done to him to make him think that what he did was ok. People don't just do what he did for no reason. I have recently seen him in a store. I didn't approach him but I just watched him. He has 3 little boys. 2 which appear to have some autistic issue, a one who is wheelchair bound. He appeared to be the most loving father to those little boys. that just made me think about what someone did to him to cause him to do the things he did to me. That really helped soften my heart and see him in a new way.


Abuse complicates life considerably. Sorry you're going through it. I'm glad you have gone down the path of forgiveness. It's a necessary step and one that might have to be revisited until you truly click with it. After the understanding comes, you will eventually get to a place where you can forgive even without understanding. That's a healing thing to do. 

The thing with trauma is that you can never actually prevent it from _having happened_, no matter how many times you revisit it afterward to try to deal with it. But you can overtake negative emotions with positive emotions, eventually. One of the best tactics is to do the law of opposite emotions. Your abuse would bring out emotions like helplessness, guilt, anger, and so on. Rather than revisiting your memories, do things that bring about opposite feelings now. So, instead of helplessness, feel a sense of confidence, by doing something that makes you feel confident. The same with anger and everything else. 

You can't erase the past, but you can go into the future feeling more emotionally well, despite your past.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MSP said:


> What works the best? *Forgiveness. Have you tried to go there? *
> 
> What works next best? *Facing your fears.* But you have to do that with boldness, even if you have to simulate that feeling. Facing fears with a cringing attitude will worsen hem. You gotta run at them. This is something you need to do without help, as much as is possible.
> 
> Also, you could try looking up an NLP practitioner. They tend to be very good at helping people overcome this sort of stuff. Find a reputable one, though. They're not all equally helpful.


I hate to disagree with you Tiki but MSP is right. Forgiveness and facing your fears are important steps in healing. Not gonna argue about where there should be placed in priority, but they should be up there.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Also, have you tried building your sexual exposure in small increments? For instance, write about a sexual experience, then talk about sex on the phone, then talk about sex in person with your husband, and so on. This can take a while to get results from, though, and is best done with guidance. It also means you'd have to not actually do anything sexual other than what you're at according to the stage of exposure, which could be tough for your husband--and even for you, too.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

always_alone said:


> Big Mama, I don't know if anything I have to say will be helpful, so please ignore if not. I agree with Tiki and Anon that this is too big for over-the-Internet advice. But a few things stood out for me in what you said:
> 
> Dissociation is a common coping mechanism. Not a great one, to be sure, but still one nonetheless. It provides a "safe harbour", and I think it's important to validate it as such, not to stay there and keep repeating it, but to recognize the role it plays in your life, to give you momentum and space to find new safe harbors --healthier and happier ones.
> 
> ...


So very true!

Thanks for putting that into better words than I have been able to come up with. I have always thought of it as owning my pleasure. It is mine not anyone else's and though I may depend upon my husband to provide it for me it belongs to me! Mine Mine Mine!


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MSP said:


> . I'm glad you have gone down the path of forgiveness. It's a necessary step and one that might have to be revisited until you truly click with it.


Not sure I agree with this, and am inclined to say that forgiveness is overrated. The guy who raped me was an effing *******, and caused pretty serious damage -and likely not just to me. Why should I forgive him, and what benefit is it to me?

Now, I have moved on, and rarely think about it (except for rape threads on TAM). But I wouldn't say I forgive him.

The person I most needed to forgive -- and it was (is?) very hard --was myself.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Not sure I agree with this, and am inclined to say that forgiveness is overrated.


Forgiveness helps to release the burden you carry. It will reduce fear and anger against men. 



> The person I most needed to forgive -- and it was (is?) very hard --was myself.


Yes, this is even harder than forgiving others, especially for abuse victims.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Can you give your H a full body massage followed by a happy ending? This might work to help him feel loved and cherished by you while your body remains in a safe zone.
> 
> No sexual bonding would be activities in which you must lean on and rely on each other to get things accomplished. For instance and obstacle course, a home improvement project, working out together while spotting one another...




I have gotten to the point where I can rub his back. That requires his back side, not his front side. (The front is the dangerous side) 

He can rub my back but I feel guilty for allowing him to give to me. I don't feel like I deserve to enjoy anything. I don't know why I feel that way I just do.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Big Mama, I don't know if anything I have to say will be helpful, so please ignore if not. I agree with Tiki and Anon that this is too big for over-the-Internet advice. But a few things stood out for me in what you said:
> 
> Dissociation is a common coping mechanism. Not a great one, to be sure, but still one nonetheless. It provides a "safe harbour", and I think it's important to validate it as such, not to stay there and keep repeating it, but to recognize the role it plays in your life, to give you momentum and space to find new safe harbors --healthier and happier ones.
> 
> ...



What you had to say was quite helpful actually. I do view my H as a perpetrator sometimes. We have been married a good while and some of the things he has done, omg, it is unbelievable. I know he had no idea of the rapes or of the CSA, but when I told him about the past, his answer for his own behavior was "Had I known I would not have done these things to you" He was abusive towards me to, just the simple fact that he was not the first one to be abusive makes it ok. He was sorry he was not the first. If I had not been raped and he was the first one to behave in this way towards me then it would have been ok, but because someone else did it first, that makes it ok, that is what I have a problem with. 

Is he willing to help me find safe harbors? I think he is, if I could feel safe enough to let him in. I know that is where I need to change my way of thinking. 

I like the idea of instead of receiving pleasure, TAKING PLEASURE. That might actually work. T like that idea. Amazing how changing the wording changes the whole thing. 

Thank you for your response.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> I hate to disagree with you Tiki but MSP is right. Forgiveness and facing your fears are important steps in healing. Not gonna argue about where there should be placed in priority, but they should be up there.


The fears do need to be faced, just not alone. In some instances for some people, most people, alone is not a good idea. Tiki, MSP, and Anon, I think we all agree facing your issues and forgiveness is a good thing. I just disagree that it should be alone.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> So very true!
> 
> Thanks for putting that into better words than I have been able to come up with. I have always thought of it as owning my pleasure. It is mine not anyone else's and though I may depend upon my husband to provide it for me it belongs to me! Mine Mine Mine!



MINE! MINE! MINE! How correct. That made me smile. Thank you.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I never viewed myself as a victim. I reworked my thinking so as not to hate myself but my attackers. I started viewing my attackers as dirty, not myself. I learned to level my animosity, anger, despair, disgust at my attackers. I deserved none of those negative emotions, they deserved all of them and more.

I became active in defending and protecting other survivors and potential survivors. I became a conqueror. My sexuality was mine! I own it. It is my responsibility to learn to control and direct my emotions so my loved ones aren't harmed by anger that is due to anothers actions.

I learned to communicate effectively with my wife.

It is a long road with work. The first time with Mrs. Conan, I couldn't stop shaking. She was patient and never took it personally.

As for forgiveness.....

I didn't hunt down the perpetrators like the sick dogs they are and flick their switch.

Before I met Mrs. Conan, I was preparing for a career in "liquidation ". I still possess the skills to make undesirables disappear. The fact that those walking piles of dog vomit still breathe, is forgiveness enough. However, no one who has ever abused someone sexually is allowed in my life or the lives of my family.

I found that directing my anger, instead of suppressing it, very freeing. 

Sorry if this is not helpful. I just found a warriors path healing.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

I agree that facing one's fears helps with healing, but I also think that baby steps are okay. 

I found my healing by becoming my own safe harbour. Whatever happens, I know I am resilient, competent, resourceful, and creative. I've been through tough times, and have come out the other end, and honestly feel these days that I have little to fear.

Trust is still huge for me. I find it very difficult to believe anyone else could also provide a safe harbour -- even after 16+ years with my SO. But I'm better at it than I've ever been before.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

Big Mama said:


> I do view my H as a perpetrator sometimes. We have been married a good while and some of the things he has done, omg, it is unbelievable. I know he had no idea of the rapes or of the CSA, but when I told him about the past, his answer for his own behavior was "Had I known I would not have done these things to you" He was abusive towards me to, just the simple fact that he was not the first one to be abusive makes it ok. He was sorry he was not the first. If I had not been raped and he was the first one to behave in this way towards me then it would have been ok, but because someone else did it first, that makes it ok, that is what I have a problem with.


This thread is typical of the ephemeral, self-help sludge that passes for mental health in today's society. Reading what you just wrote, the obvious question for me is why you are married to this man. Why would you want to spend even one more minute with a man you see as abusive? This doesn't make any sense to me. If he is truly abusive then find someone who will be good to you. That's what you deserve.

You described having sex with a timer as a good thing. No one here has told you otherwise, yet in the original thread, the condemnation of the timer was almost universal. Why would you think that a timer was horrible for everyone else but somehow therapeutic for you? I could give you vastly better exercises that would help you grow instead of coping. But, you would first have to explain why you are trying to save a relationship with a man you describe in such negative terms.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I found that directing my anger, instead of suppressing it, very freeing.
> 
> Sorry if this is not helpful. I just found a warriors path healing.


The Warriors Path to Healing.... I love it!

Directing anger is very complicated because it's always there and in the beginning those triggers are huge. The slightest provocation can set of the rage. Learning to forgive and let go has been tremendously helpful for me. The anger remains, make no mistake, but it is easier to control and direct and not so easily triggered.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

Let's say you are happy and then one day a tornado passes through and demolishes your house. You could feel angry, shocked, depressed, or fearful. All of these feelings would be normal. However, none of these feelings are productive. At some point, you will have to get past these emotions and get on with the business of finding a new house. But, imagine that ten years later, you are still skulking around the wreckage of your house, shaking your fist at every dark cloud. Would you be healthy? No.

Okay, let's say you are happy and then one day you find your partner in bed with the neighbor. You could feel angry, shocked, depressed, betrayed, or fearful. All of these feelings would be normal. You could romanticize these feelings. My hurt is so great...my betrayal is so deep...my anger is so uncontrollable...etc. But, romanticized or not, none of these feelings are productive. At some point, you will have to get past these emotions and get on with the business of finding a new relationship. But, imagine that ten years later, you are still fuming over your unfaithful partner and shaking your fist at every person who tries to get close to you. Would you be healthy? No.

Anger reduces your ability to plan and think clearly. It interferes with your judgement. It also tends to make you act impulsively. These characteristics are similar to being intoxicated. So, presumably there would be a drunkard's path to healing. I could just tell people to use their intoxication instead of letting it control them. It's funny to me that most people can immediately see that this notion would be nonsense and yet they will accept it if we talk about anger. There is no productive use of anger; it is something to get past just like every other negative emotion such as grief and fear. It isn't something to redirect unless your goal in life is to run into trees.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

Thank you all for your contained answers. Anon, Scientia, Conan and alone. Thank you for your most recent responses. This is all very thought provoking.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

Big Mama said:


> Thank you all for your contained answers. Anon, Scientia, Conan and alone. Thank you for your most recent responses. This is all very thought provoking.


You're welcome. I can give you productive exercises to do if there is something actually worth saving. But again, I'm very confused about the negative descriptions you gave for your husband.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Anger has a place. It compels action. Could be healthy action, such as shaking your fist at the sky and declaring you'll never be hungry again. Could be unhealthy such as clenching your fist any time a man smiles at you.

Scientia, make your post about productive exercises. I for one would be glad to know them. I've read your posts before and you make a a lot of sense.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

scientia said:


> Let's say you are happy and then one day a tornado passes through and demolishes your house. You could feel angry, shocked, depressed, or fearful. All of these feelings would be normal. However, none of these feelings are productive. At some point, you will have to get past these emotions and get on with the business of finding a new house. But, imagine that ten years later, you are still skulking around the wreckage of your house, shaking your fist at every dark cloud. Would you be healthy? No.
> 
> Okay, let's say you are happy and then one day you find your partner in bed with the neighbor. You could feel angry, shocked, depressed, betrayed, or fearful. All of these feelings would be normal. You could romanticize these feelings. My hurt is so great...my betrayal is so deep...my anger is so uncontrollable...etc. But, romanticized or not, none of these feelings are productive. At some point, you will have to get past these emotions and get on with the business of finding a new relationship. But, imagine that ten years later, you are still fuming over your unfaithful partner and shaking your fist at every person who tries to get close to you. Would you be healthy? No.
> 
> Anger reduces your ability to plan and think clearly. It interferes with your judgement. It also tends to make you act impulsively. These characteristics are similar to being intoxicated. So, presumably there would be a drunkard's path to healing. I could just tell people to use their intoxication instead of letting it control them. It's funny to me that most people can immediately see that this notion would be nonsense and yet they will accept it if we talk about anger. There is no productive use of anger; it is something to get past just like every other negative emotion such as grief and fear. It isn't something to redirect unless your goal in life is to run into trees.


Totally disagree with you on the point of anger. I have learned to make it work for me. Anger is a necessary emotion, not a chemically induced state of intoxication.

Poor comparison.

Controlling and directing my anger has had fantastic results in nearly every area of my life.

Emotions are necessary, it is simply necessary to control and direct them.

I can think quite fast and accurately when I am angry and it can propel me to actions that are needed when others are shocked or confused by a given situation.

I have found fear far less useful.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Anger has a place. It compels action. Could be healthy action, such as shaking your fist at the sky and declaring you'll never be hungry again. Could be unhealthy such as clenching your fist any time a man smiles at you.


I think you are confusing two different things. In the wild, anger serves as a protective impulse that overrides fear such as keeping your children from getting eaten by predators. I can recall such an event where a mother attacked a mountain lion that had pounced on her child. This is the only productive purpose of anger that I am aware of. In most of the civilized world, anger makes things worse, not better. I think what you are talking about is getting past anger. If you need to scream, punch a bag, run, tear up newspapers, or what have you, that is fine. But, notice that none of these actions actually accomplish anything. You still have to get past the anger and on to something productive like determination.



> Scientia, make your post about productive exercises. I for one would be glad to know them. I've read your posts before and you make a a lot of sense.


Are you talking about some other topic or this thread?

For example, Big Mama said that she lets her husband pleasure her with a timer and felt that this was helpful. This is not actually helpful. It is a type of maladaptive coping behavior. The timer is bad because she is using it to control someone else and to give herself an out. This behavior does nothing to help her move forward or to strengthen her relationship.

Since sex is an issue she should begin with zero presentation of sex. Someone else suggested that she give a massage. This could work but you would need a few things. First, stop using the egg timer and get a real timer. You need one that is accurate to seconds. I would start with 3 minutes. She should be fully clothed because she is not giving sex. Her husband should be fully nude.

The initial interaction can be difficult so you can start off with him blindfolded so that there is no eye contact. She starts the timer and basically caresses his skin until the timer goes off. Again, to make things easier, you avoid touching the face, hands, feet, inner thighs, and especially the pubic area and genitals. You do this everyday and increase the time by 30 seconds. Doing it once or twice a week won't have much effect. About the minimum you can do this is every other day. When you reach 10 minutes (in two weeks), you can go to the next step. If you are particularly nervous then you can extend this by another 3 minutes (which is about three weeks). 

The timer here is the opposite. Instead of controlling someone else to avoid what makes you uncomfortable, it pushes you to continue and to continue longer each day. Instead of telling someone that they get this much and no more, they actually get more each day. People like touch; it makes them feel closer and the steady pace forward tends to make them feel more optimistic. Your husband will probably get aroused. You just ignore that and continue. At this point, it's about touch; sex is secondary. Generally, the husband should avoid masturbating during this time or at least try to minimize it.

The next step starts over. You set the timer back to three minutes and give a massage. However, when the timer goes off, you reset to three more minutes you do it differently this time. She would take her husband's penis in her non-writing hand and hold it. Then use her dextrous hand to continue the massage. If she needs to reposition, she would release his penis and take hold of it again when she is in a new position. There is no stroking, only holding. She would do the same thing as she did before, increasing by 30 seconds each day until it reaches 10 minutes (plus the 3 minutes of pre-massage). Obviously, he is going to get aroused and that's fine. That isn't a problem unless he tries to thrust in which case she just releases his penis and massages his body with both hands until he is ready to continue. Conversely, if he loses arousal, she can stroke lightly until he regains it. You want him to be aroused. The goal is to demonstrate acceptance of his arousal. The husband can masturbate after the massage without involvement from the wife.

By this time we've gone through a month of her having no obligation but touching and holding. She should be feeling more comfortable and confident. He should not be feeling ignored or unloved. Generally these types of exercises help a lot with emotional closeness between the couple and also generally avoid arguments.

Step three is interesting because it seeks to close the arousal cycle. Basically, you repeat step two but you end with 3 minutes of sitting behind and enclosing your husband in your arms. So, we go from 3 minutes of non-sexual massage, to 3-10 minutes of massage plus penile holding with arousal, to 3 minutes of embracing. I'm sure many will notice that this mimics actual sex with phases of foreplay, intercourse, and cuddling. That's intended because if you want to adjust to real life, you need exercises that are similar to real life.

There are different things you can do at this point. You can insert a masturbation phase where she sits behind him while he masturbates and then go to the embracing phase. Or she can masturbate him using oil. The problem here is that some men cannot resist thrusting but if he thrusts then she has to stop stroking. For these men, letting them masturbate with nonsexual touching from the wife may be best. Some might be confused here about why it would matter if the husband thrusts while she is stroking him. You need to understand that many who have been sexually abused are sensitive to any assertion of sexuality. Thrusting on the part of the husband can seem very aggressive even though she is fully clothed. Obviously, his libido may not be up to masturbation everyday. If she cannot arouse him during the holding phase then she can just move on to the embracing. From here, you move on to removing the blindfold during embracing and then to having it off during both the initial massage and embracing, then also off during holding and finally off all the way through. This whole process takes several months so she has time to become comfortable with it.

This would be a typical exercise. Exercises for her sexuality are different because they have to start off as self-directed. Also, if something like autism or Aspergers really is an issue then that changes things.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I can think quite fast and accurately when I am angry and it can propel me to actions that are needed when others are shocked or confused by a given situation.


If I were to believe you then presumably you would want co-workers to slap you in the morning and your wife or girlfriend to cheat on you to propel you to these mythical levels of fast and accurate thinking. I'm pretty sure that this is not the case. What you seem to be talking about is that after getting a surge of anger, you in fact are able to get control of your emotions but that you still feel the rush from the adrenalin. And, I suspect that you are similarly able to have intense concentration without first getting angry.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

Scientia, all I can say is YIKES!!!!!!! I copy an pasted all I could read. I will have to come back to this thread on a stronger day or at a time I am feeling stronger. Once I saw the words "my H fully nude", I cringed and then had difficulty reading beyond the word penis in the last paragraph copied and pasted here. 


We don;t use an egg timer I guess, we use a kitchen timer, the kind that goes all the way to an hour. I set if for 20 min, after 20 min of him giving pleasure to me if the big "O" hasn't happened yet, then it is not going to. I need to know that he will stop, the the sex will stop, he will not progress any further at this time, unless I want him to. It can't just go on and on forever until he gets more frustrated and hurt because he couldn't make "IT" happen and I get tired or board because it is not happening. If I think "O"s are a real possibility then by all means PLEASE DON'T STOP. 

YOUR QUOTE: 
"Are you talking about some other topic or this thread?

For example, Big Mama said that she lets her husband pleasure her with a timer and felt that this was helpful. This is not actually helpful. It is a type of maladaptive coping behavior. The timer is bad because she is using it to control someone else and to give herself an out. This behavior does nothing to help her move forward or to strengthen her relationship.

Since sex is an issue she should begin with zero presentation of sex. Someone else suggested that she give a massage. This could work but you would need a few things. First, stop using the egg timer and get a real timer. You need one that is accurate to seconds. I would start with 3 minutes. She should be fully clothed because she is not giving sex. Her husband should be fully nude.

The initial interaction can be difficult so you can start off with him blindfolded so that there is no eye contact. She starts the timer and basically caresses his skin until the timer goes off. Again, to make things easier, you avoid touching the face, hands, feet, inner thighs, and especially the pubic area and genitals. You do this everyday and increase the time by 30 seconds. Doing it once or twice a week won't have much effect. About the minimum you can do this is every other day. When you reach 10 minutes (in two weeks), you can go to the next step. If you are particularly nervous then you can extend this by another 3 minutes (which is about three weeks). 

The timer here is the opposite. Instead of controlling someone else to avoid what makes you uncomfortable, it pushes you to continue and to continue longer each day. Instead of telling someone that they get this much and no more, they actually get more each day. People like touch; it makes them feel closer and the steady pace forward tends to make them feel more optimistic. Your husband will probably get aroused. You just ignore that and continue. At this point, it's about touch; sex is secondary. Generally, the husband should avoid masturbating during this time or at least try to minimize it.

The next step starts over. You set the timer back to three minutes and give a massage. However, when the timer goes off, you reset to three more minutes you do it differently this time. She would take her husband's penis in her non-writing hand and hold it. "


EEEEKKKKK!!!!! I couldn't read anymore. What I did read is what is in quotes I think I might be able to do minus the Him fully nude part. Maybe shirtless only? Could one start the process that simple. It does sound fathomable what I was able to read, but it would take great effort on my part, and that is ok, I am willing to put forth effort, but YIKES!! that is all I can say. 

I really do anticipate reading more of that response, and maybe talking about it with my T. When I read more it will most likely be the day of my next T's visit or the night before. That much information is slightly triggering. I really don't think that the thoughts of this should bother me as much as it does. The issues may lie deeper then she realizes. The issues may lie deeper then I realize for that matter. 

Thank you so much for your advice. I hope others can benefit from that information as well. Any thing you have to offer I would greatly appreciate.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

Big Mama said:


> Scientia, all I can say is YIKES!!!!!!! I copy an pasted all I could read. I will have to come back to this thread on a stronger day or at a time I am feeling stronger. Once I saw the words "my H fully nude", I cringed and then had difficulty reading beyond the word penis in the last paragraph copied and pasted here.
> 
> I need to know that he will stop, the the sex will stop, he will not progress any further at this time, unless I want him to.


I'm not quite understanding this. You are saying that you need him to stop but the exercise I outlined does not include his doing anything sexual to you. If you don't start then why would you need to stop?



> EEEEKKKKK!!!!! I couldn't read anymore. What I did read is what is in quotes I think I might be able to do minus the Him fully nude part. Maybe shirtless only?


From what I read, it seemed that you had indicated that you and your husband were having sex now. And presumably, that would involve being undressed.



> Could one start the process that simple. It does sound fathomable what I was able to read, but it would take great effort on my part, and that is ok, I am willing to put forth effort, but YIKES!! that is all I can say.


You would have to tell me what about this is bothering you. You are panicked over the idea of your husband being nude even if he is blindfolded, you are fully dressed, and you are not expected to arouse him?


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## FemBot (May 1, 2013)

I think its important to delve into your core beliefs about yourself and sex. What comes up for you? 

Sensual meditation or mindfulness meditation can also help for dissociation. Simply sit and concentrate on sounds, tastes, smells and touch during your meditation session. Increase the time each day. Focus solely on the present moment. If your thoughts wander, bring them back to the present with no judgement. Keep redirecting. Eventually you can start doing this during sex....but only when you start viewing sex as a pleasurable activity for yourself.

I am not a therapist but I sense a lot of resistance from you about the way you are. Only through fully accepting yourself as a wonderful being will you be able to heal. There is a woman named Teal Swan who was severely abused and tortured as a child, who is now a great spiritual teacher. You should check her out! She is amazing and has done a lot to overcome her abuse. She does a lot of work on self love and overcoming core beliefs. Start with her videos on "how do i discover self worth" at Ask Teal - The Spiritual Catalyst - A weekly inspirational video series by Teal Scott: The Spiritual Catalyst and go from there.

Might be something you could use in conjunction with therapy. Best of luck to you


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

ok let me see here, with out doing the quote thing it is quite difficult. 

I need to know that he will stop, the the sex will stop, he will not progress any further at this time, unless I want him to.


Your Question: 
"I'm not quite understanding this. You are saying that you need him to stop but the exercise I outlined does not include his doing anything sexual to you. If you don't start then why would you need to stop?"

That was relating to why a times is used in the bed room at the current time. Nothing to do with the process you are explaining. Hope that provides some clarity, sorry about that. 


Quote:
"EEEEKKKKK!!!!! I couldn't read anymore. What I did read is what is in quotes I think I might be able to do minus the Him fully nude part. Maybe shirtless only?
From what I read, it seemed that you had indicated that you and your husband were having sex now. And presumably, that would involve being undressed."

Yes we are currently engaging in sex initiated by me, and it is clothes less. I often have on a shirt and socks. As planned in T currently we have sex only when I initiate it, which is like once every two weeks. That often ends in tears on my part, or me dissociated if it takes to long. 

Quote:
"You would have to tell me what about this is bothering you. You are panicked over the idea of your husband being nude even if he is blindfolded, you are fully dressed, and you are not expected to arouse him?"

That just sparked a fear in me. The thoughts of someone unclothes makes me uncomfortable. I once told my H that God took a perfectly good man and gave him a penis. That totally ruined everything. I know that is the wrong way to look at it. But once the pants come off and the offending organ is exposed and the animal hunger and the human desire that comes along with that, it scare me. His need and arousal and fear and pressure to satisfy his hunger is scary to me. 

The guilt that I would have over having a hard time participating in this, hurts me. Because it should not be hard but it is. I hurt my husband by not being affectionate. It makes him feel unloved and that is not what I want to portray. I want him to know I love him. 

I want to feel loved. I don't want to be afraid of love. I want him to feel loved. I wish that was something I could give me, the gift to let go and accept love, and something I could give him to.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

FemBot said:


> There is a woman named Teal Swan who was severely abused and tortured as a child, who is now a great spiritual teacher. You should check her out! She is amazing and has done a lot to overcome her abuse. She does a lot of work on self love and overcoming core beliefs. Start with her videos on "how do i discover self worth" at Ask Teal - The Spiritual Catalyst - A weekly inspirational video series by Teal Scott: The Spiritual Catalyst and go from there.
> 
> Might be something you could use in conjunction with therapy. Best of luck to you


You first have to overlook the fact that Teal is a complete fraud who was never kidnapped, never tortured, never sexually abused, never witnessed child sacrifices, and doesn't have any special spiritual powers. Once you get past that then you can ask yourself why someone who claims to be spiritual would resort to lying to sell a book and that will tell you what her advice is worth.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

Big Mama said:


> Yes we are currently engaging in sex initiated by me, and it is clothes less. I often have on a shirt and socks. As planned in T currently we have sex only when I initiate it, which is like once every two weeks. That often ends in tears on my part, or me dissociated if it takes to long.


That's what I thought you were saying which is why I said that you needed to start without your giving any type of sex. Sex with you initiating seems to be too far along; I was suggesting starting back further with no sex, just touching.



> That just sparked a fear in me. The thoughts of someone unclothes makes me uncomfortable. I once told my H that God took a perfectly good man and gave him a penis. That totally ruined everything. I know that is the wrong way to look at it. But once the pants come off and the offending organ is exposed and the animal hunger and the human desire that comes along with that, it scare me. His need and arousal and fear and pressure to satisfy his hunger is scary to me.


Again, this is why I described his being blindfolded so that there was no eye contact. I also mentioned not touching his feet, hands, face, inner thighs, or pubic area. What about this involves animal hunger that would scare you?



> The guilt that I would have over having a hard time participating in this, hurts me. Because it should not be hard but it is. I hurt my husband by not being affectionate. It makes him feel unloved and that is not what I want to portray. I want him to know I love him.
> 
> I want to feel loved. I don't want to be afraid of love. I want him to feel loved. I wish that was something I could give me, the gift to let go and accept love, and something I could give him to.


The exercise I described was to adapt to this over a period of time. I'm still not understanding this. Your current therapist suggests having sex even though this seems to scare you and yet you say that you can't spend two weeks doing nothing but caressing your husband?

I can make other suggestions if it isn't matching you but, so far, I'm not seeing what doesn't match.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

ok lets see here. 

Touching no sex that I might can do. 

Yes T says no sex unless it is initiated by me. I almost never want to have sex. I either don't want to at all or I am giving it no thought so I an not really opposed to it, but I am far from WANTING it. But I think that is as close to wanting sex as I am going to get. Simply the opposite of not wanting to must be somewhere in the realm of wanting to right? IDK. 

What part of animal hunger scares me. The raw power in it. The amount of control it takes for someone else to keep it from getting out of control. It is the animal hunger that existed in someone else that led to rape, and the drive for someone to push me to do something I didn't want to do. 

The T is not suggesting sex, but My H asks..." how much longer till we can do it, ya think I can have it tonight, when are you going to give it to me." I can give it 7 days a week if that is what he'd like, it will just be very dissociated. If he wants a willing partner then he is going to have to wait on me. We haven't gotten very far in that. He wants if far more then I am ready to give it. The constant complaint of "how much longer are you going to hold what someone else did to you against me" gets really old. Just because I have little sex drive, and and have a difficult time getting to "O" doesn't mean that I hold against him what someone else did to me. 

Right now I seem to have a real aversion to touch. It is very frustrating to me. We don't hold hands, we don't kiss, It doesn't dawn on me to touch him, I guess because my need for touch is not there. At times he has taken my arm and put it across him and asks "See is this so bad" and it is not so bad, but I just didn't think about it. So I didn't initiate it. And that is what bothers my H s much. 


It might be something I could try, it would be harmless I am sure. My H has never hurt me sexually before. He has done multiple things that remind me of my abuser, which now that he knows about what that is, he no longer does it.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Scientia, everything you've outlined makes a great deal of sense. I think it would helpful to indicate where relaxation and refocusing techniques might come in. Such as deep breathing ...something?


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Big Mama said:


> As planned in T currently we have sex only when I initiate it, which is like once every two weeks. That often ends in tears on my part, or me dissociated if it takes to long.


Hi. 

Has your therapist mentioned what therapies she is using? I can't remember if you've said this before--my memory sucks. Have you tried EMDR? Your stress levels need to be addressed and the good news is that you can do exercises to help them, even away from the bedroom. Mindfulness is one method that you can start with away from the bedroom. 

I have a therapy I call the Law of Opposites. Here is how it goes:

You write down the emotions that you feel about your trauma. In your case there are probably feelings of helplessness and whatever else. I don't want to trigger you by listing them all. You now have a piece of paper with the negative emotions written down. Now get a second piece of paper and list the opposites for each of those emotions. So, instead of 'helplessness', you might write 'a sense of freedom'. Note, feeling in control is not necessarily the opposite of helplessness, because control can stem from fear and become an overcompensatory action; however, feeling confident is a valid opposite. Write down all the positive opposite emotions.

The next thing you do is to think of or find activities you can do to help bring about each of those positive emotions. For instance, you might feel empowered by winning a game of tennis. Or you might feel relaxed when floating in a swimming pool. 

What you have to do is to make time to pursue those activities. By doing them you will increase the feelings that oppose your negative feelings. And even though you are not directly fighting against your trauma, the good emotions will spill into every area of your life, making you stronger and better able to get past anything. 

Try it. I guarantee you will get positive results or your money back!


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## TikiKeen (Oct 14, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I hate to disagree with you Tiki but MSP is right. Forgiveness and facing your fears are important steps in healing. Not gonna argue about where there should be placed in priority, but they should be up there.


The unrepentant don't get forgiveness. If they ask, it's up to each survivor to determine if he/she is ready and capable of forgiveness at that time. 

For instance, I forgive myself for blaming myself, for allowing my hate at my abusers to permeate my life for decades, and for staying in fear as long as I did. I don't wish them death, which I used to. Apathy is okay with me. I see that pain, wickness or evil drove their actions. But not one T has ever told me I 'have' to forgive perpetrators. On the contrary, getting rid of self-blame, anger and stopping the repetition of victim-think has been the goal.

This piece sums it up pretty well for me.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

EMDR? What exactly is that. I have heard of it but I forget. 

In T we have done make a list of negative feelings on one side of the paper, and a list of the opposite on the other side. We didn't do much with it. Just mostly the realization of what it should be. And it didn't have anything to do with sex with my hubby. 

I could certainly try that same school of thought in this situation. Why is it that sometimes we can't see the trees for the forest.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Big Mama said:


> EMDR? What exactly is that. I have heard of it but I forget.


Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. Never really got into it myself, but I've heard good things about it.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Honestly I think forgiveness has to come in its own time.

Not to this extent but I have had some traumatic situations. I was attacked by an intruder in my home (not sexual but violent) and misc situations that required a lot of healing.

I find with these situations the people around you forget and move on much much faster than you do. Especially something that happened when you were young. You might feel that you are the only one who holds the mark that this happened. That if you let go this person's grievous sin against you would disappear into the wind. That nobody remembers or holds this person accountable. That this person got away with it.

I do struggle with this, but I find with enough time and processing that apathy is achievable. Apathy can be freeing. When my mind drifts to those who have harmed me part of me feels satisfaction that I do not care what happens to them. If I care what happens to them that makes them important and they do not deserve that. I will not give them any more space in my brain than they give me. 

Today is the fist time I've heard reference to a warrior path but this probably falls in as well. It's like giving that person the finger.

Having said all that - you referencing your husbands behavior in the past makes me wonder if you weren't healed enough at the time and chose another type of abuser. Perhaps that is why you find him scary, because he is capable.


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

*waves* Another CSA survivor here, and one that is nearly past every single one of my triggers from both episodes.

Let me explain a bit of my background (WARNING POSSIBLE TRIGGERS!!!!!!!): I was raped by my DNA donor (then called my father) when I was 13 and then raped a second time when I was 20 by my ex-fiance. I went through 3 rounds total of 6 month long therapy sessions. While therapy works for a LOT of people, it didn't help the feelings of not deserving any affection ("I'm broken, he really doesn't want something broken!"), the feelings of being "dirty", and the overall guilt I carried for most of my adult life. When I married my husband, I was at the same place you are now...I would be okay with sex about every 2-3 weeks and that was it...and I was like a dead fish in bed. What helped me, MIGHT help you...I don't know. But I'll try to lay out the thoughts and activities I did to make myself stronger and actually DESIRE sex with my husband.

Here's what I did: When my husband FINALLY got me to understand exactly what sex was to him (An extremely deep emotional and physical connection), I had to come to terms that I really didn't want to have sex with him. So what did I do? I relieved the rapes probably 3-4 times a day...always alone...always when he was at work. The first week or so of this, my flashbacks at night were absolutely horrible. I'd wake up in a heavy sweat, unable to fall back asleep for fear of seeing their faces again. So I called my doctor, had him prescribe me a low dose sleep med that I could take over the upcoming vacation period (husband gets them for a week twice a year), and actually feel rested the next day. From there, I progressed right to what Scienta has suggested. I started doing light touches to the hubs. I let him know straight up, no response back...I'm doing this to build MY confidence. After about 2 weeks, I was able to massage him because I KNEW he wasn't going to just turn around and demand sex from me.

But really, I think the biggest part that helped is learning and knowing and OWNING my triggers. I started telling the hubs every time he would trigger a flashback in me. When I would tell him that, he knew (because I told him) that I was just wanting some alone time, then cuddle time (because I had worked up the touch issue) and would be okay after a little bit. I'm not saying I was completely over the fact I triggered, but I was okay with myself enough to not "freeze" him out of my life at that point.

The mental mind games I had to play with myself ended up focusing on owning my body, admitting I wasn't nearly as broken as I thought I was, and that I was NOT going to let the [email protected] who attacked me to CONTINUE attacking me years later. They didn't deserve that much of life anymore. They deserved to be "forgotten" about...to suffer a fate the Ancient Egyptians thought was absolutely horrible...to be erased from my life. I had been given a chance some victims NEVER get...the chance to move forward, to live another day...how DARE they think they could TAKE my future from me? It was and still is MINE MINE MINE...I will make it what I want...not them. ((Sorry, that kinda veered off into a mind rant...but it's what I do when I really don't want to trigger off something))

I don't know if anything I have said may help you...but I would DEFINITELY listen to Scienta. Your T is great, not gonna say that person isn't...but it really feels like they aren't pushing you enough out of your comfort zone. Healing only begins once you are done feeling comfortable with how things have been before. A little but constant push will get you to move MUCH farther down the road of recovery than a slight bump here and there.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Aki....perfecto!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

TikiKeen said:


> The unrepentant don't get forgiveness. If they ask, it's up to each survivor to determine if he/she is ready and capable of forgiveness at that time.
> 
> For instance, I forgive myself for blaming myself, for allowing my hate at my abusers to permeate my life for decades, and for staying in fear as long as I did. I don't wish them death, which I used to. Apathy is okay with me. I see that pain, wickness or evil drove their actions. But not one T has ever told me I 'have' to forgive perpetrators. On the contrary, getting rid of self-blame, anger and stopping the repetition of victim-think has been the goal.
> 
> This piece sums it up pretty well for me.


Tiki, everybody's crap is different. Whether you forgive those who harmed you or forgive yourself....learning to forgive is vital, IMO.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i gotta say, i couldn't be more proud of my little akinaura.
:smthumbup::smthumbup:


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> i gotta say, i couldn't be more proud of my little akinaura.
> :smthumbup::smthumbup:


She is impressive! Fierce little subbie!


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

Big Mama said:


> Touching no sex that I might can do.


No, that isn't what I said. The exercise is to have non-sexual touching everyday for 2-3 weeks in which time you increase the length of the activity from 3 minutes to 10-13 minutes.

Then you move to touching plus arousal but, again, no sex. 2-3 weeks.

Then touching, plus arousal, plus embracing. 2-3 weeks.

Then touching, plus arousal, plus masturbation, and embracing. 2-3 weeks.

So, the process is 6-9 weeks before anything is sexual beyond simple arousal. And, even after this, the sex is at most, hand manipulation. None of this involves penetration or your partner touching you. You are fully clothed during all of this.



> Yes T says no sex unless it is initiated by me. I almost never want to have sex. I either don't want to at all or I am giving it no thought so I an not really opposed to it, but I am far from WANTING it.


This is again why I suggested that you start with no sex at all.



> What part of animal hunger scares me. The raw power in it. The amount of control it takes for someone else to keep it from getting out of control. It is the animal hunger that existed in someone else that led to rape, and the drive for someone to push me to do something I didn't want to do.


Okay, where in my exercise would you be subjected to animal hunger or be concerned about control in your partner? Remember, there is no sex, you are fully clothed, and you are not being touched in any way. To put more distance than this between you and your partner would pretty much require that you are no longer in a relationship with a man with normal sexual function.



> My H asks..." how much longer till we can do it, ya think I can have it tonight, when are you going to give it to me."


This is again why I suggested an exercise where he would not feel ignored or unloved.



> He wants if far more then I am ready to give it.


Which is why I suggested no sex.



> Right now I seem to have a real aversion to touch. It is very frustrating to me.


Which is why I suggested that he would be blindfolded. This exercise will work for him whether you actually want to touch him or not. The point is that it is slow enough for you to gain some confidence and feel comfortable. There really isn't a more basic starting point than touching. You could start off by simply resting your hands on his body and not caressing but you still have to start with touch of some kind. You asked about his having just his shirt off. I'm not seeing that as a good starting point because you will still encounter resistance in yourself as he removes more clothing. In other words, you will tend to have the same level of anxiety by the time he is nude as if you had started with him nude, so there is no real gain. Better would be starting with him nude but keeping your hands, say, only on his chest. Then you can progress to having your hands in two different positions during the exercise, then three, etc. After a week of this, you move to caressing.

Touching the face usually suggests a level of intimacy that you may not be comfortable with so you don't have to do it. The hands are often viewed suspiciously so don't have to touch them. And, to start, you are not trying to arouse so you avoid the genital area. Some have a similar aversion to the feet as they do to the hands. You can touch the tops of his feet if you are comfortable with that. The initial goal of 2-3 weeks is for you to understand that touching him doesn't threaten you in any way or obligate you to anything. During this time, it would be best for him to masturbate as little as possible. And, if he does, it would not involve you. That is, none of his sexuality is directed to you and you are not presenting any of your own sexuality.



> So I didn't initiate it. And that is what bothers my H s much.


Notice that the exercise does involve your initiating touch.



> It might be something I could try, it would be harmless I am sure.


The goal is to start with something you can handle and that will help him feel accepted. The process has to involve moving forward or it becomes just another avoidance behavior. None of the exercise is about your sexuality; it is only about making you able to accept his. Actual sex is still beyond this.

I've thought about this some more. The only other exercise I can think of would be the prisoner touching exercise. This only simulates touching so it has to be visual. But, since it is visual, you can't use a blindfold and so there is no way to avoid eye contact. Unfortunately, the eye contact can make this seem more aggressive even though you aren't actually touching. Also, not everyone has a convenient window to use. It is possible to do this exercise without a window which technically makes it a Mesmer exercise, but, again, without actual touching it is visual so there is no blindfold.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

Ok. Let me start here. This is the least severe of the 50 + times I was raped. There was a lot of oral involved, alto of me just freezing while he did with me as he pleased. I am including this because it may help give you an idea of where I am coming from. I don't know how to add a trigger warning to this so I can only do the next best thing. 

*****************TRIGGER WARNING ******************
***PROCEED WITH CAUTION, STOP READING IF TRIGGERS OCCUR*



This took place 20 + years ago. When I was in high school I skipped school one time I left with my boyfriend "lary" we shall call him. We went to a friends house and some there who was over 21 bought beef for us. One of my boyfriends bestr friends were there. We watched T.V. , drank , played cards , we were just having a good time. My boyfriends buddy, we will call him "matt" was way to eager to hand out beers. I kept getting this really strange feeling about matt. He kept trying to get me alone. He would send lary to the store, have lary go out and get lunch for us all. I begged laryu not to leave me alone with matt. While lary was gone matt gave me incorrect directions to the bathroom. I could hear matt not far behind me. It turned out he sent me to the bed room.I escaped the room right as matt was trying to get in. I did find the bathroom and he tried to follow me in there. I locked the door and stayed in there until lary returned. 

Since mat was drinking and not handling his alcohol well I could almost see the lust in his eyes. I could feel his intentions. He looked at me in the most disgusting way. 

Matt was tall and skinny. He was 20. HE wore holey jeans and a ripped blue jean jacket. (he came from a poor family) His hands looked rough. His hair was oily and his teeth were broken or missing. I remember him smiling the most nasty hungry smile at me. He wanted me and I could see it in his eyes. I could tell by the way he talked. HE asked me to set on his lap. My boyfriend protested and pulled me onto his lap. I felt safe for a minute. All evening was like this. One attempt after another. 

When I think about my boyfriend HE had a motive to. The house we were in was old. The bed was in the kitchen. It had no covers, no blankets. It was a full size bed, that was old and squeaky. There was no head board and no foot board. It just sat on cinder blocks. 

The walls were dingy from the wood stove. The light was a single bulb hanging down from a wire over head. The floor had dirty cracked purple and green cracked lanolium.

I can taste the acid from the fear and from the struggles. I can hear laughs, I can see matts broken rotten teeth.

I was safe with lary, my boyfriend. But at what cost. I remember my boyfriend, lary's , cold tongue, his breath tasted like beer and cigarettesH. It was wet and cold. His eyes were heavy and lust filled. His breathing was rapid as he tried and tried to get my clothes off. His hands went under my shirt, under my shorts. I was panic stricken. I sure it was obvious I wanted him to stop by my attempts to escape. I was trying to get him to stop and matt sat in the kitchen at the table and watched. He watch me struggle. HE just smiled and watched. He looked like a hungry wolf. He was anxious and waiting his turn. 

I squirmed, pushed, turned away, and cried. I gave into his wants just long enough for him to relax his hold on me. I would make a break for it until he cought me again. Like a cat and mouse. He was qqquick and I didn't get away ever. 

It was horrible. I had to give in to this monster and trust him and act like I was his enough so he would not share me with matt. I had to be protected by the very person who would rape me. 

Matt was trying so hard to get lary drunk so he could have me him self. He just looked so hungry. I will never forget the look he had in his eyes. As horrible as this was, I was raped by my boyfriend and he loved me, I was so glad I was not raped by matt, he was just drunk and wanted a piece. There was no love, sheer evil. 

I did manage to hole them both off enough during the day that only lary got a turn with me. The day was not long enough for matt to get me to. I had to return to school to catch the bus home. I think the two of them had planned to get me drunk and share me. But every time they gave me a beer I drink a swallow or two, but I poured it out, spilled it, switched it with some one elses beer. If it were not for that I would not have had the same fate. IT would have been much worse. 

This is like a movie. I can stand back and see the whole thing before my very eyes. I can feel the fear , the anxiety, the slow spiral of hopelessness pulling this yourng girl in. I was only 15 years old. Lary was 19 years old and matt was 20 years old.


**************************************************

That is what happned, and thta is the most minor or all the things taht did happen. But I do think thta this event alone played a different role mentally on me. There was no escape, it was a full day of torture. The other events only lasted a short time up to an hour or so.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

MSP - I have tried a little EMDR - I am not sure if it helped or not. I know it didn;t hurt to try it. My T doesn't specialize in that, though she does know a little about it. 

TIKI - I have forgiven the mad who did this. I tried to see him in a human light, and I saw him out in public one day with his kids, one which has severe autism. He looked like a great dad, and that made me think of "What did someone do to him to think this was OK" and forgiveness came after that. 

I don't know that forgiveness erases that from my memory. It feels more like the prolonged hell did something to me mentally. 

MissScarlett you may be absolutely correct. I met my H 3 years after this event and didn't tell him till 18 years later. I very well may have chosen a man who dishes out a different kind of abuse. That is where I struggle. I do know what he is capable of. The trust just is not there yet. And it has nothing to do with being married for 20 years, it has to do with the years of mental and emotional abuse suffered by me at the hands of my husband. He has since stopped his abusive ways, and I am in a process of forgiving him and learning to trust him threw his consistency.

Scientia - Today is a new day. I didn't get to read much of what you wrote last night. Between the triggers and exhaustion, and lack of sleep, and the stress of the day it was just not a good day. 
It is my intent to go back and read the whole thing today. 

Akinaura - Firstly I am sorry for what you went threw. Thank you for sharing a little of your story with me, well with us. You brought up some very good points that I can relate to. 

My T suggest I tell my H ever time he triggers me. It is quite difficult. Every time, inside and outside of the bedroom. Doors slamming, putting down a coffee cup to hard, elevated voice, asking me to go for walks in the night, and of course the sexual stuff. I mostly freeze, I can manage to write what I need to tell him when I get totally stuck. But I get stuck so often. The littlest things cause me to freeze. 

* Right now in T we are working on MC on putting a marriage back together. I know I personally have a long way to go even after we, my H and I are done with t. I think he will always be a part of my healing and will be slightly involved in things with me and the T. But I personally have a long way to go with T.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Wow, Big Mama, I am just so sorry for the things you went through. It makes me so angry for you and sad for the kid you were, too, that those who protected you also used you.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

Big Mama said:


> This is like a movie. I can stand back and see the whole thing before my very eyes. I can feel the fear , the anxiety, the slow spiral of hopelessness pulling this yourng girl in. I was only 15 years old. Lary was 19 years old and matt was 20 years old.


There are some imagined exercises that might help. Let's start with Matt since he seems to be the one who produces the most response.

You think about Matt and feel the fear and anxiousness. You need to continue this for about 45 seconds. Then you imagine a woman who is older than Matt, attractive, successful, and confident. You imagine Matt asking her back to his place for beer. Naturally, this woman tells Matt that she isn't interested. Matt leaves.

You think about Lary and again feel the fear for about 45 seconds. You imagine Lary bragging about how desirable he is. Then you ask Lary why, if he is so hot that he is chasing girls so much younger than him. Isn't it because girls his age can see that he is a loser and aren't interested? Lary leaves.

You think about a girl of 15. You imagine her getting ready to enter an old house with these two men. You feel the fear for about 45 seconds. You stop the girl and tell her that this is a dangerous situation. She blames herself. She tells you that she deserves it because she skipped school. You tell her that the older men are counting on the fact that she is young and inexperienced. You tell her that it isn't her fault and she does not deserve it. You put your arm around her and lead her away.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

Big Mama said:


> MSP - I have tried a little EMDR - I am not sure if it helped or not. I know it didn;t hurt to try it. My T doesn't specialize in that, though she does know a little about it.


To reduce anxiety, you tap under your left eye (if you are right handed), count backwards from 100 by 7, and then hum "Happy Birthday". This activates multiple parts of your brain (touch, math, music, etc.) and allows it adapt. However, you can't do this during touching exercises with your husband because he will feel that you aren't paying attention to him. You could do this prior to a touching exercise while imagining yourself touching your husband.

There is another thing you can do. If there is something you enjoy then you can do it after the touching exercises. This can help create a positive association between the touching and the thing you like. For example, one man needed to take injections for several months that made him sick. Typically, people fail to do the entire course of treatment. But, he really loved watching movies so he decided that he would only watch the movies on the days of the treatment. This helped him continue the treatment all the way to the end.



> I don't know that forgiveness erases that from my memory. It feels more like the prolonged hell did something to me mentally.


Your brain will adapt much as your muscles will adapt if you do harder physical activity. And, just like hard physical exercise stresses your body, these exercises will stress you emotionally. If you avoid the emotions then it is a lot like avoiding physical exercise and nothing changes. Like physical exercise, you want to push a little but not too much.



> My T suggest I tell my H ever time he triggers me. It is quite difficult. Every time, inside and outside of the bedroom. Doors slamming, putting down a coffee cup to hard, elevated voice, asking me to go for walks in the night, and of course the sexual stuff. I mostly freeze, I can manage to write what I need to tell him when I get totally stuck. But I get stuck so often. The littlest things cause me to freeze.


I don't know how supportive your husband is. If he were willing then he could get on his knees and hug you when you are triggered. The purpose of being on his knees is to make him smaller and less threatening.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

for reducing anxiety, i like power poses:
Amy Cuddy: Your body language shapes who you are | Talk Video | TED.com


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Big Mama, im gonna tell you the same thing i told my wife the first time i saw her trigger. 

your ok. there is nothing wrong with YOU. there is a damn good reason for the way you feel, its normal that you feel what you feel. anybody in your shoes would feel the same way.

you are not broken. you are hurting.
not broken.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> for reducing anxiety, i like power poses:
> Amy Cuddy: Your body language shapes who you are | Talk Video | TED.com


Yes, that would seem to be beneficial according to the research presented. In this case, she could hold a power pose for two minutes to increase her confidence before doing a touching exercise.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

((((((((((Big Mama))))))))))


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

jld - thank you

As'laDain - Thank you so much for what yu said to your wife. That made me cry. In the best possible kind of way. 

That is the response I need to hear from my husband, not why do "I" have to pay for his sins. 

Quote:
"your ok. there is nothing wrong with YOU. there is a damn good reason for the way you feel, its normal that you feel what you feel. anybody in your shoes would feel the same way."

"you are not broken. you are hurting.
not broken."

My H may have aspurgers and I am assuming he is not capable of being as compassionate as he should to others, and he simply doesn't know how to respond. In T I am working on providing him with what I NEED to hear. Because he obviously is not going to think of it himself. 

Your statement is what I need to hear. Thank you so much. 

Now I can't wait to watch the TED talk clip. I love TED talks.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Big Mama, I hear you on working with your husband on what you want to hear. Sometimes I just say straight out to dh, I need words of affirmation. And sometimes I tell him just what I want him to say. 

I will also just say, Reflect the feeling! Reflect the feeling! Active listening really calms me down.

He doesn't feel offended by any of that. I think he considers it a timesaver, lol.

Thanks again for being so vulnerable with us. I have so much respect for your willingness to do that.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

I watched that TED talk, absolutely amazing, that is all I can say amazing. I will have to try that tomorrow before I go into T with my Hubby. I am terrible with words. I will take any help I can get.


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## FemBot (May 1, 2013)

scientia said:


> You first have to overlook the fact that Teal is a complete fraud who was never kidnapped, never tortured, never sexually abused, never witnessed child sacrifices, and doesn't have any special spiritual powers. Once you get past that then you can ask yourself why someone who claims to be spiritual would resort to lying to sell a book and that will tell you what her advice is worth.


You can believe what you like. Fraud or not, doesn't matter to me. She doesn't teach anything new, I just like her delivery of the subject material. You can get the same messages from any spiritual teacher and she literally saved my life through her teachings. I can bet good money you have never even seen a video of hers, otherwise you'd know she doesn't sell anything!

I have not seen any evidence saying she is a fraud and why would someone lie about that? HayHouse is publishing her book and they also publish Wayne Dyer so unless they are a bunch of idiots they believe in her.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

FemBot said:


> You can believe what you like.


I can believe what there is evidence for and what doesn't contradict common sense. She also claims that she is the child of extraterrestrials and has special powers. Do you believe that as well?



> she literally saved my life through her teachings.


Yes, I've seen similar claims about Transcendental Meditation, Scientology, ect. ect. Are you familiar with the story of stone soup?



> I can bet good money you have never even seen a video of hers


Like the ones I watched here: https://www.youtube.com/user/TheSpiritualCatalyst



> otherwise you'd know she doesn't sell anything!


Chicago Workshop - June 21st by Teal Swan: The Spiritual Catalyst
Attend in Person: $100.00/person USD
Attend Online: $10.00/household USD
5:30pm - 8:30pm -- Book Signing: 
The Sculptor in the Sky Paperback $14.40, Hardcover $20.01, Kindle $7.99

_By focusing on these paintings and having them in your living space, they will cause your energy to "entrain" with and "resonate" at the same frequency and amplitude of the vibration that they are created to convey. And in turn, aid you to amplify and manifest the presence of the subject matter in your life._
She lists 122 different "spiritual" paintings. Print $22, Canvas $47, Framed $67

And Teal Eye Merchandise is her website where you can buy t-shirts, sweat shirts, jackets, hoodies, underwear, pajamas, baby clothes, infant blankets, jewelry, gym bags, beach bags, shopping bags, laundry bags, wallets, coin purses, iPhone and iPod covers, coffee mugs, water bottles, refrigerator magnets, pet dishes, dog tags, tree ornaments, coasters, aprons, throw blankets, bedspread, golf balls, tea pots, pillows, cookie jars, balloons, journals, sticky notes, license plates, and keychains

t-shirt: $17.99
coffee mug: $12.09
bedspread queen: $164.99



> I have not seen any evidence saying she is a fraud and why would someone lie about that?


Let's ask Milli Vanilli.



> HayHouse is publishing her book and they also publish Wayne Dyer so unless they are a bunch of idiots they believe in her.


Right because you can't find a single book in print about aliens, bigfoot, the loch ness monster, the bermuda triangle, psychics, faith healing, prophets, or books like The Da Vinci Code or Chariots of the Gods. I actually bought a book one time called, How to Build a Flying Saucer. Presumably you believe that I now have a flying saucer. And, if you are addicted to Self-Help, Spiritual, or Pseudo-scientific books, HayHouse is a good place for a fix.


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## FemBot (May 1, 2013)

Scientia I can understand your frustration surrounding Teal. I have not given her any of my money and I have learned a great deal from her. I'm not going to hide her valuable teachings because her abusive story seems implausible to others or she believes something I don't. It is of no use to me to judge her. I only wanted to help the OP discover her own self worth.....anyway sory to hijack OP. I didn't know I was going to be attacked 

A great quote from her:

"Treat your problems like precious frightened children. Do not treat them like enemies that are bigger than you are; or like annoyances to be downplayed. So often I hear people referring to their problems and negative beliefs like this: "It's just my own bull****". This is profoundly self hating. You cannot do this without invalidating your pain. And as long as you are invalidating your pain, no healing can be achieved. Because all you are doing is standing in front of a frightened child, telling them that their problems are "bull****"


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

FemBot said:


> Scientia I can understand your frustration surrounding Teal.


I'm not frustrated. I'm more than able to say that she is a liar.



> because her abusive story seems implausible


It isn't so much implausible as it is fraudulent.



> A great quote from her:
> 
> "Treat your problems like precious frightened children. Do not treat them like enemies that are bigger than you are; or like annoyances to be downplayed. So often I hear people referring to their problems and negative beliefs like this: "It's just my own bull****". This is profoundly self hating. You cannot do this without invalidating your pain. And as long as you are invalidating your pain, no healing can be achieved. Because all you are doing is standing in front of a frightened child, telling them that their problems are "bull****"


This is the same type of pseudo-spiritual, pop psychology that you can get in any Hallmark store and even from a fortune cookie on a good day.

Let's look more at that frightened child analogy:


_Treat your problems like precious frightened children. You should be able to find some mean kids to harass them and beat them up._

_Treat your problems like precious frightened children. Clothe them and feed them until they grow up to be big, adult problems that overwhelm you._

_Treat your problems like precious frightened children. Because while problems might seem like big, scary monsters, children can be easily strangled in their sleep._

_Treat your problems like precious frightened children. Lock the cupboards and they will slowly starve to death._

_Treat your problems like precious frightened children. Just call Child Protective Services and they will take of your problems for you._

_Treat your problems like precious frightened children. It should be easy to sell them on the black market._

_Treat your problems like precious frightened children. Take them for a ride in your car and leave them by the side of the road somewhere._


Notice that none of these images actually work because this analogy is nonsense. Children are things you want and love, that you take care of and nurture. Problems are things that you don't want. These two don't really overlap. Real problems can be large or small, temporary or enduring. They can be things you can solve on your own or things you need help with. The best way to solve or at least reduce a problem is to understand it completely and be aware of your options.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

FemBot said:


> I didn't know I was going to be attacked


If you feel attacked then I'm sorry about that. You are probably a decent, caring person who is just trying to help. However, you can't get wisdom from her videos any more than you can get orange juice from a piece of granite because it isn't there. So, any wisdom you found had to come from inside you. If you felt that you found something in her videos that helped you then that suggests that you are perhaps smarter, more capable, and wiser than you give yourself credit for.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

scientia, who cares. we recommend what has helped us. not what some scientists say is supposed to work, but what has actually worked for US.

FemBots experiences are no less valid than your own.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> scientia, who cares. we recommend what has helped us. not what some scientists say is supposed to work, but what has actually worked for US.
> 
> FemBots experiences are no less valid than your own.


That's the same argument I've heard for every cult, new age fad, herbal supplement, quack cancer treatment, fad diet, get rich investment, and cosmetic treatment that I've come across. Someone claims they work and that's good enough, right?

I guess I've got this crazy idea that people need food, clothing, shelter, and positive relationships and that there is no substitute for these things. I also have the outrageous idea that you cannot do anything or be successful just by being positive. Real accomplishments take ability, experience, and effort. And none of these change based on how many self-help books you read. You don't become a better artist, a better musician, a better athlete, or a better chess player by meditating or thinking positively. Oddly enough these things require study and practice. You can sit at a piano and bang on the keys randomly everyday and you will never learn to play no matter how positive your attitude is or how many affirmations you've done. Learning to play a piano, like pretty much everything else requires focused effort. You can walk and keep walking until you collapse from exhaustion. Strangely though, you won't actually get to where you want to go unless you are walking in the direction of your destination.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

scientia said:


> That's the same argument I've heard for every cult, new age fad, herbal supplement, quack cancer treatment, fad diet, get rich investment, and cosmetic treatment that I've come across. Someone claims they work and that's good enough, right?
> 
> I guess I've got this crazy idea that people need food, clothing, shelter, and positive relationships and that there is no substitute for these things. I also have the outrageous idea that you cannot do anything or be successful just by being positive. Real accomplishments take ability, experience, and effort. And none of these change based on how many self-help books you read. You don't become a better artist, a better musician, a better athlete, or a better chess player by meditating or thinking positively. Oddly enough these things require study and practice. You can sit at a piano and bang on the keys randomly everyday and you will never learn to play no matter how positive your attitude is or how many affirmations you've done. Learning to play a piano, like pretty much everything else requires focused effort. You can walk and keep walking until you collapse from exhaustion. Strangely though, you won't actually get to where you want to go unless you are walking in the direction of your destination.


again, who cares?

or maybe i should say, why do you care?


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## Hello_Im_Maddie (May 8, 2014)

Staying in the moment by mentally commenting on what is happening, and reminding myself how much i love him and he loves me. 

Also, making love is very important rather than having sex. Partner should be gentle, patient and loving while connecting with you. 

Remind yourself you are allowing this connection and that he is not taking advantage of you.


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