# When is it fair to expect change?



## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Question...

After having done a lot of reading around the forums, I have noticed a bit of a "contradiction" around the notion of spouses/partners changing.

I could go on about what I've read, but this is the general gist...

People talk from the perspective of obviously having known their partner well before they married. Many, when offering advice, or their own experience, will explain their tolerance or acceptance of certain "qualities", if you like, of their spouse, by saying they knew the spouse was like that when they married, be it habits, personality traits or whatever- the sort of things where you might prefer them to be different, or to the extreme that people might ask why did you marry them if you knew they were like that and anything inbetween. The notion being that it's either unfair to expect someone to change, or unrealistic.

Why then, when people post about how they're not happy with their spouse being, say, shy in the bedroom, reluctant to try new things, their spouse has never wanted to do such-and-such but I'd really love to get them to, is it seemingly more acceptable for people to expect change? In what way is it different in the bedroom to ask for change than outside?


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## rome2012 (Sep 10, 2010)

People like to tell me I'm wrong for changing the things my ex-husband wanted me to change for so long.....I totally disagree....

I think it's fair to expect change if it isn't anything against that person's believes or character....

The things my ex wanted me to change were 

- not making anymore debt and saving money
- going to get a different degree to get a better job
- taking care of the house better (I tend to be a slob)
- and work on losing weight (I was obese)

and those were all things beneficial to me.....

Now if he would've asked me to get a boob job or some ridiculous thing like that I would've showed him the finger....

My opinion.....


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I think the key word in your question is "expect." 

It is never acceptable to "expect" change. Let's use the example of someone who is shy in the bedroom. Just to be clear, "shy" doesn't mean unwilling...it means they just are not aggressive or don't really take initiative. 

If person A marries person B, the vows do not say "I will forsake all others assuming that you'll change to being aggressive in the bedroom." The vows are a promise, before God and family that you accept that person as they are and will do the work ON YOUR SIDE to act in a loving way toward them as long as you are both alive. Note that your vow is a promise YOU make about how YOU will act: in a loving way toward them. It's not about them. Likewise though, during the wedding, they also make their vow promising that they will act loving toward you. 

Can you see how "expectations" are when you EXPECT someone else to act a certain way toward you? You are controlling how another person acts!

Thus, it is reasonable to request a change. It is reasonable to let them know that if they continue to choose XYZ behavior that you feel less loving toward them...or it kills/dampens your love for them. It is reasonable to put a boundary around YOURSELF (not them) and say that you are willing to live with someone who is shy but willing...but NOT willing to live with someone who avoids and is unwilling, because make no mistake, being unwilling to have a fulfilling sex life is breaking the vows JUST AS SURELY AS ADULTERY. 

In the end, though, the expected change is in YOU and how you react and what you accept. It's not in them. Make sense?


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> Thus, it is reasonable to request a change. It is reasonable to let them know that if they continue to choose XYZ behavior that you feel less loving toward them...or it kills/dampens your love for them. It is reasonable to put a boundary around YOURSELF (not them) and say that you are willing to live with someone who is shy but willing...but NOT willing to live with someone who avoids and is unwilling, because make no mistake, being unwilling to have a fulfilling sex life is breaking the vows JUST AS SURELY AS ADULTERY.


This bit... I get the premise of what you are saying. So, what if, say, you knew the person you married avoided and was unwilling (as an example)? Is it reasonable to go ahead and get married and then request a change? I mean, it sounds crazy to say someone would marry in that circumstance but just hypothetically... 

Although it has made it clearer in the sense that it is reasonable to request a change in order to fulfil the marriage vows rather than just requesting a change because you aren't happy with something. 

I'm asking really from the perspective of someone who is hoping to get married in the next year or so, research if you like!


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

tobio said:


> Is it reasonable to go ahead and get married and then request a change? I mean, it sounds crazy to say someone would marry in that circumstance but just hypothetically...


As crazy as it sounds a lot of people marry under these circumstances, myself included. My H was a liar and very distant before I married him and im requesting that he change. Is it reasonable? I think it is because he wants to change. 

First and foremost i think it is only reasonable to ask for change if the spouse completely agrees the change needs to happen. And they have to want to change for themselves and not simply to make you happy. if they dont agree, then no, its not reasonable to continue to request it for reasons *Affaircare * pointed out. 

If the spouse does want to change, then a huge part to consider when deciding if it is reasonable to request a change is how long can you live with it if they take a long time to change? Change takes a long time. Can you handle it for years if they dont? That's a huge factor. I handled my H's lies and distance because they are kind of juvenile and its been a learning experience for me. But I could not handle waiting for him to change if he were a drug addict or a sex addict. Is it reasonable to ask a drug addicted or sex addict to change, even if they want to? Maybe, maybe not. But more importantly, could I handle it if it took them years to do it? No, therefore the request is unreasonable.

In your example, of a person being shy in bed, if the spouse agrees they need to change, then request it. But it is not reasonable to request immediate change and so you have to be patient. If you cant be patient then its not a reasonable request. 

On a lighter note, my H is also a slob. Never cleaned a day in his life. I knew this before i married him. He's ok with it. Is it reasonable that i request he change? i dont think so. But there are other ways. I cook him dinner IF he cleans up the kitchen. he wants dinner cooked, so he cleans.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

I don't think this is about what is "right," but rather, about what is REAL. 

Most of us expect to continue growing, developing, and changing after marriage (and throughout our lives). The problem is, we also assume our spouses wll grow and change in directions we like. But that often does NOT happen.

So, on the one hand, do NOT expect changes--esp in areas you already find less than charming, or the areas that make your intended most difficult for you. 

On the other hand, examine yourself and your intended for expectations about growth and change. This is less certain--but at least you can have a conversation.

Often, one partner changes and the other doesn't, or the changes go in different directions. Trying to work through these is what makes marriage tough--and yet, working through is possible. But, if it isn't, I personally do not understand why someone should be trapped for life with someone who is still stuck at age 25 (or whatever), or who has changed in a direction you simply cannot live with. 

When you get down to it, it is simply about whether or not you can both be happy in the relationship. Giving it your best shot, esp with kids involved, is the best you can do. There is no medal for marital martyrdom, as far as I can tell. 

Be realistic. That's my best advice!


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## surfergirl (Jan 27, 2011)

tobio said:


> In what way is it different in the bedroom to ask for change than outside?


It's no different. 

I'd say that across the board, it's always reasonable to ask for change - if the change will bring something positive into the relationship and it doesn't encroach on the other person's beliefs or value system. 

I don't think it's reasonable to expect someone to change who they are if it was a part of who they were when you became committed to eachother.

No harm in asking of course...but to expect them to change is simply not fair.

It should be mandatory for folk who are thinking of getting married to come in and read through the threads of forums like this one before committing - gives such a huge insight of what not to do


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

sisters359 said:


> So, on the one hand, do NOT expect changes--esp in areas you already find less than charming, or the areas that make your intended most difficult for you.


It took me a while to understand this but I feel a lot more at peace with myself for getting it.



> On the other hand, examine yourself and your intended for expectations about growth and change. This is less certain--but at least you can have a conversation.


I was thinking of this. I am the planner, the one who wants to get things on the go re: life plans. He has ideas but lacks the get-up-and-go to tackle them head-on. I handle stuff like that and he's fine with it but I need to know we want the same things.[/QUOTE]



surfergirl said:


> It's no different.
> 
> I'd say that across the board, it's always reasonable to ask for change - if the change will bring something positive into the relationship and it doesn't encroach on the other person's beliefs or value system.
> 
> ...


I certainly agree with that last paragraph!

I think this was partly prompted by reading threads about guys who wished their wives would instigate a bit more variety into their sex lives, who would try certain acts because their H wanted to, and I often wonder what the response would be from (mainly) the male posters if the H were to say, I want my W to give me BJs/anal/initiate/do it with the lights on/whatever but the H has asked and the W has stated it is not something she is comfortable doing at all. I'm not talking about a couple who never have sex, or a W who necessarily turns down everything her H suggests, but something that the H REALLY wants to do.


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

IMO the only thing anyone should expect, is to expect to change themselves. If you continually sit around waiting, wondering, and expecting the other person to change, then you may be even more disappointed.


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## surfergirl (Jan 27, 2011)

tobio said:


> I think this was partly prompted by reading threads about guys who wished their wives would instigate a bit more variety into their sex lives, who would try certain acts because their H wanted to, and I often wonder what the response would be from (mainly) the male posters if the H were to say, I want my W to give me BJs/anal/initiate/do it with the lights on/whatever but the H has asked and the W has stated it is not something she is comfortable doing at all. I'm not talking about a couple who never have sex, or a W who necessarily turns down everything her H suggests, but something that the H REALLY wants to do.


Okay....well I can only speak for myself but if my partner asked that I do something that I didn't want to do (for whatever reason)...then in my world, no it wouldn't be fair for him to "expect" me to do it regardless.


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## surfergirl (Jan 27, 2011)

Jamison said:


> IMO the only thing anyone should expect, is to expect to change themselves. If you continually sit around waiting, wondering, and expecting the other person to change, then you may be even more disappointed.


:iagree:


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## troy (Jan 30, 2011)

Its okay to ask for change in behaviour or habits. You should not expect it, but you should ask if its important to you.

Its NOT okay to ask for changes in attitude, personality, or other traits that are at a person's core. Asking for these changes is asking for trouble.


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## madimoff (Feb 17, 2010)

troy said:


> Its okay to ask for change in behaviour or habits. You should not expect it, but you should ask if its important to you.
> 
> Its NOT okay to ask for changes in attitude, personality, or other traits that are at a person's core. Asking for these changes is asking for trouble.



And to what extent are behaviours - reactions, sensitivities, perceptions - a proportion if not all of which will have been learned - actually those attitudes, personality or traits? Because (not trying to be confrontational, I just see this as fundamental to many of our and maybe many people's problems) if you can't expect/hope people might be prepared to work on their behaviours then what was CBT ever developed for?


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