# "I don't have the means to leave"



## Hope1964

I see people saying this all the time here on TAM. Mostly women. The odd guy I guess, but pretty much all women.

I do not get this. I see women post about living in horrible conditions - their husband verbally abusing them daily, cheating on them and flaunting it, refusing to allow them their own money, and much worse.

Is saying "I don't have the means to leave" the same thing as saying "I'm a victim of abuse and I need help to leave"? Are there really this many women out there who have what amounts to battered person syndrome? I really hope not. But I don't like the alternative either - that too many women today are no more independent than they were 150 years ago and that they depend on a MAN to provide them with the necessities of life. That they're simply unable to fathom the idea of being on their own and providing for themselves, to the point that they live in abject misery for years. Or that they're just too lazy to do it, or too uneducated.

I do not know the answer, but I do know that it really bothers me when someone posts on here for YEARS about their horrible husband, yet just continues to take it and never does anything to change it. Hell, it bothers me when someone just posts on here for a couple of DAYS about the way their husband has treated them for years or decades. Does it bother you?


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## Faithful Wife

Yes, it bothers me.


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## Pamvhv

I think this view is a little unfair and maybe a little privileged. I mean we don't all have the means to leave. I do but I understand others not having it.


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## Cosmos

If someone has been caught up in the cycle of abuse for many years, they might_ feel_ that they're incapable of doing anything to extricate themselves from a toxic relationship, and often need professional help and support in doing so. Whereas there are some who would rather stay in a bad relationship than go through the uncertainty and hardship of building a new life for themselves.


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## ladybird

I will answer for me..
. I dont have the means to leave, I dont. I have 2 kids that I will need to support on my own. I cant get a job. Ive been applying for a job for the last 3 and a half years. Ive had 3 a interviews out of hundreds of jobs ive applied for. Ive been a stay at home mom and havent worked since 2007. Yes I can go live with my mom and her husband, but they cant afford to feed me and my 2 kids and I dont expect them to.. I am going to leave, but I need to get things in order first, like being able to support myself and my kids first.


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## Faithful Wife

ladybird...I don't know your story and this is an honest question: what would you do if he died and left you nothing? How would you support yourself?


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## Miss Independent

ladybird said:


> I will answer for me..
> . I dont have the means to leave, I dont. I have 2 kids that I will need to support on my own. I cant get a job. Ive been applying for a job for the last 3 and a half years. Ive had 3 a interviews out of hundreds of jobs ive applied for. Ive been a stay at home mom and havent worked since 2007. Yes I can go live with my mom and her husband, but they cant afford to feed me and my 2 kids and I dont expect them to.. I am going to leave, but I need to get things in order first, like being able to support myself and my kids first.



Can you go back to college?


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## mablenc

spinsterdurga said:


> Can you go back to college?


There are also trainings, certifications, and temp agencies, not judging only pointing out the options.


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## Phenix70

One of the HUGE parts of leaving, is having another place to go. 
If the leaver has no job, how will they afford to pay for the rent, deposit and 1st month's rent?
Or even if they do have a job, coming up with that kind of cash is difficult at best, even with an income.
Not everyone has another place to go, meaning they may not have friends or family to go live with.
If they are not a battered spouse, they will be turned away from most women's shelters.
So yeah, I can see that there are very valid reasons for staying until having the financial means to do so.
Just because your SO is an a-hole doesn't mean you become homeless just to get away from him.
Besides, staying because of emotional reasons is much different from staying because they cannot afford to leave, they are not the same thing and should not be lumped together.


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## Caribbean Man

Phenix70 said:


> One of the HUGE parts of leaving, is having another place to go.
> If the leaver has no job, how will they afford to pay for the rent, deposit and 1st month's rent?
> Or even if they do have a job, coming up with that kind of cash is difficult at best, even with an income.
> Not everyone has another place to go, meaning they may not have friends or family to go live with.
> If they are not a battered spouse, they will be turned away from most women's shelters.
> So yeah, I can see that there are very valid reasons for staying until having the financial means to do so.
> Just because your SO is an a-hole doesn't mean you become homeless just to get away from him.
> Besides, staying because of emotional reasons is much different from staying because they cannot afford to leave, they are not the same thing and should not be lumped together.


:iagree:

I used to think the same as the OP, but looking at the picture a little closer, every case is a little different and people have their own idiosyncrasies.
Can't lump every case together.

Sometime ago I did a similar thread here:

Why Do Some Women Stay With Abusive Men?

And the stories were interesting.

The reasons are varied as the people involved.

But what I learned is that each victim reaches a point for themselves ,where it's either_ fight or flight_.
Before that point , they just aren't ready to go.

I think it is best to support a person until they are ready to leave. If they leave against their own will and judgment, they would most likely return back to the abusive cycle either with their abuser or with another man who is also an abuser.

Sometimes there are deep psychological issues that has to be fixed FIRST , before a person finally leaves. Counselling and support does help.


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## Faithful Wife

But Phoenix, Hope specifically said this:



Hope1964 said:


> I see women post about living in horrible conditions - their husband *verbally abusing them daily, cheating on them and flaunting it, refusing to allow them their own money*, and much worse.
> 
> I do not know the answer, but I do know that *it really bothers me when someone posts on here for YEARS about their horrible husband, yet just continues to take it and never does anything to change it.* Hell, it bothers me when someone just posts on here for a couple of DAYS about the way their husband has treated them for years or decades. Does it bother you?


And in these cases of abuse, especially when children are involved, there really should be no "but I don't have the means" argument if there is ANY way possible to get out. I understand and agree that being in an abusive relationship can cause a person to not be thinking clearly and begin to accept abuse. But that still bothers me a lot, again esp. with children around. I don't see why children should be kept in an abusive environment.

I think Hope is talking about a specific type of poster who has really HUGE problems but doesn't seem to be taking the steps to get themselves out of the situation and they are making excuses about it. Yes, this bothers me because it is sad and confusing to hear about.


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## EleGirl

There is a woman who has posted here in the last week. She's been married 41 years. She says that up until recently her marriage was good. But now her husband is cheating and mistreating her. She also says that she does not have the means to leave. 

Unfortunately she has not responded to the replies on her thread so we may never know her circumstancs.

If she's been a SAHW for 41 years, she's probably 61 or older.

She says that her husband has blown their savings on some women he met on line in the Ukraine. He's also traveled there to spend time with this woman.

What if they have nothing left? What if their only income is Social Security and not a lot more. She would only get half of the amount he gets from Social Security. So even if he gets the max.. that's about $2,642 a month. She would get $1,321 a month income. 

Now she could apply for food stamps depending on her state. Here in NM she has an income of less than $1,400 a month so she should be able to get about $189 a month in food stamps. She might be able to get a low income senior housing. I understand that the wait for this is about 1-2 years.


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## Faithful Wife

I would also add that I have a friend who stayed and stayed when she shouldn't have. She claimed she didn't have the means to get out, but she actually just didn't want to be uncomfortable. She feared her child was being abused by the situation of her staying, if not also by her husband, but she kept turning a blind eye and telling herself she couldn't afford it, couldn't get a job that pays enough, couldn't this couldn't that. She would also say it was better for her child to be in better schools in a better district she could not afford if she was on her own...the child wouldn't have medical insurance...would have to quit ballet classes and leave all her friends at school and move away, this would be so horrible for the poor child, it isn't her fault me and dad can't get along, etc etc.

She finally left, much too late...the child is a teen now and is suicidal and in constant therapy and is a total mess. Mom is now stuck with the knowledge that she let this happen and should have left a decade ago.

That's why this bothers me.


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## EleGirl

ladybird said:


> I will answer for me..
> . I dont have the means to leave, I dont. I have 2 kids that I will need to support on my own. I cant get a job. Ive been applying for a job for the last 3 and a half years. Ive had 3 a interviews out of hundreds of jobs ive applied for. Ive been a stay at home mom and havent worked since 2007. Yes I can go live with my mom and her husband, but they cant afford to feed me and my 2 kids and I dont expect them to.. I am going to leave, but I need to get things in order first, like being able to support myself and my kids first.


You have options that could help you leave. What have you explored so far?


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## Prodigal

The economy isn't good. I don't care what we hear from politicians. I live in it. The truth is the truth.

But here's another truth: Don't rely financially on your spouse, be it a male or female spouse.

I did for a number of years. Then I decided to fight and claw my way into a job that would support me, regardless of my marital status. 

I'm married to a drunk. He lost his job in August 2009. I left a month later. Things were REALLY bad, economically-speaking, at that time.

But I couldn't live a single minute more with someone who was completely out of control. 

My first job? At an attorney's office. The attorney? A total nut-job who paid me $11/hour with no benefits. Two of us walked out after two weeks. I listened to enough cursing in my home; I wasn't going to listen to it at my job.

I took odd jobs, crummy jobs, low-paying jobs, downright crazy jobs for which I was over-qualified.

But I survived.

Today I have a decent job for this economy. Considering the fantastic jobs I had when the economy was good, this one stinks. But it beats standing on my feet for eight hours a day at the job I had in a mall food court asking a million times a day, "What sauce would you like with that?"

Women who have been married for 20-plus years generally get permanent spousal support. If not, the court will order the spouse who earns the bulk of the income to pay the unemployed spouse money to get job training.


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## Faithful Wife

Totally agree with the "don't be financially dependent on anyone else". 100%. For everyone.


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## Miss Independent

Pamvhv said:


> I think this view is a little unfair and maybe a little privileged. I mean we don't all have the means to leave. I do but I understand others not having it.



I share the same feelings as the op and I don't think it is privileged. My mom stayed with a man who beat her, insulted her, belittle her and had 00 respect for her because he had money and she didn't want to have to work like everyone. Those who don't know her would argue that she stays because she can't leave/ has no option ect... Since she's my mom, I know that she has many degrees and can get a job. She will have to stop leaving in luxuries but will survive. In her case, the op is right.

There are women out there who chooses to stay wih abusive men because they don't want to do the HARD work of leaving


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## Feeling-Lonely

ladybird said:


> I will answer for me..
> . I dont have the means to leave, I dont. I have 2 kids that I will need to support on my own. I cant get a job. Ive been applying for a job for the last 3 and a half years. Ive had 3 a interviews out of hundreds of jobs ive applied for. Ive been a stay at home mom and havent worked since 2007. Yes I can go live with my mom and her husband, but they cant afford to feed me and my 2 kids and I dont expect them to.. I am going to leave, but I need to get things in order first, like being able to support myself and my kids first.


Have you applied for a dishwasher or waitress position? It just seems impossible to not get anything at all? I have worked as a waitress and guest services for years, can actually make good money.


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## SpinDaddy

Faithful Wife said:


> ladybird...I don't know your story and this is an honest question: what would you do if he died and left you nothing? How would you support yourself?


Social Security survivor's benefits.


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## Phenix70

Faithful Wife said:


> But Phoenix, Hope specifically said this:
> 
> I think Hope is talking about a specific type of poster who has really HUGE problems but doesn't seem to be taking the steps to get themselves out of the situation and they are making excuses about it. Yes, this bothers me because it is sad and confusing to hear about.



It was actually her own post that brought up the different issues. 


> But I don't like the alternative either - t*hat too many women today are no more independent than they were 150 years ago and that they depend on a MAN to provide them with the necessities of life. That they're simply unable to fathom the idea of being on their own and providing for themselves, to the point that they live in abject misery for years. Or that they're just too lazy to do it, or too uneducated*.


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## SpinDaddy

Hope1964 said:


> I see people saying this all the time here on TAM. Mostly women. The odd guy I guess, but pretty much all women.
> 
> I do not get this. I see women post about living in horrible conditions - their husband verbally abusing them daily, cheating on them and flaunting it, refusing to allow them their own money, and much worse.
> 
> Is saying "I don't have the means to leave" the same thing as saying "I'm a victim of abuse and I need help to leave"? Are there really this many women out there who have what amounts to battered person syndrome? I really hope not. But I don't like the alternative either - that too many women today are no more independent than they were 150 years ago and that they depend on a MAN to provide them with the necessities of life. That they're simply unable to fathom the idea of being on their own and providing for themselves, to the point that they live in abject misery for years. Or that they're just too lazy to do it, or too uneducated.
> 
> I do not know the answer, but I do know that it really bothers me when someone posts on here for YEARS about their horrible husband, yet just continues to take it and never does anything to change it. Hell, it bothers me when someone just posts on here for a couple of DAYS about the way their husband has treated them for years or decades. Does it bother you?


Oh I completely get it. I don’t have the means to leave a wholly toxic and crappy job situation until we have another one lined up. The germane question is “What are you doing to make that happen?” It’s the people who aren’t doing anything to get out that I feel for or alternatively am bothered by.


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## Phenix70

I see a lot of judgment in this thread & to me that's sad. 
It's no wonder people don't reach out for help considering just the small sampling seen in this thread.
You don't know someone else's life, you don't know what they go through, the bills they have, the health issues, etc, etc.
So don't sit there & say, "if it was me, I would do this. These women are just lazy or uneducated."
How dare you pass judgement, these women deserve more than that, if you can't help them, the least you can offer is empathy. 
Do you really think they haven't thought about getting a job or an education?
I sure don't see this attitude so blatantly shown towards the the betrayed spouses who are staying with their cheating spouses. 
Why does it bother you or anyone else what someone choses to do in their relationship?
Seriously, you're annoyed about what someone else is doing in their relationship, as if you have any say in the matter.


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## Faithful Wife

Phoenix, I'm not annoyed at all, I just said it bothers me, and really it only bothers me in the case of kids shouldering abuse for any reason that should be the parents responsibility to get them out. I hear your points, too. Hearing about cases other than with children in harm's way don't really bother me or make me think anything one way or the other.


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## Faithful Wife

SpinDaddy said:


> Social Security survivor's benefits.


That would totally suck to have to try to survive with kids on that. I assume it wouldn't be much and you'd have to wait a bit to get it. If there was no lump sum received from a husband's death and no assets and only SS bennies to live on, I'm sure that could leave someone homeless.


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## EleGirl

Faithful Wife said:


> That would totally suck to have to try to survive with kids on that. I assume it wouldn't be much and you'd have to wait a bit to get it. If there was no lump sum received from a husband's death and no assets and only SS bennies to live on, I'm sure that could leave someone homeless.


"Within a family, a child may receive up to one-half of the parent’s full retirement or disability benefit, or 75 percent of the deceased parent’s basic Social Security benefit. However, there is a limit to the amount of money that can be paid to a family. The family maximum payment is determined as part of every Social Security benefit computation and can be from 150 to 180 percent of the parent’s full benefit amount. If the total amount payable to all family members exceeds this limit, each person’s benefit is reduced proportionately (except the parent’s) until the total equals the maximum allowable amount."

http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10085.pdf


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## Phenix70

Faithful Wife said:


> Phoenix, I'm not annoyed at all, I just said it bothers me, and really it only bothers me in the case of kids shouldering abuse for any reason that should be the parents responsibility to get them out. I hear your points, too. Hearing about cases other than with children in harm's way don't really bother me or make me think anything one way or the other.


FW, my post wasn't directed towards you at all, so please don't think so.

I want people to think of what they have posted in this way.
Would you actually say to a woman, who was struggling to leave, either due to financial or emotional reasons, "I think you're not leaving because you're lazy or uneducated. And your choice to stay bothers me."
Really?


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## Faithful Wife

I hear you, Phoenix. I have actually said very stern words to my friend about the fact she should leave. Not those words you used, but mine were just as direct. It bothered me because I could see her withering away and her child being more and more damaged by the day, and I told her so. And it bothered me that she wasn't willing to listen to that inner voice that kept urging her to run away, get away. She shoved that voice way down, but I knew it was there because when things were bad my arms were open to her at any time and she'd use my shoulder (with my blessing). So I knew in her deepest fears, she worried that her situation may be screwing her child over, but in her "make it work" moments she shushed that part of herself and said "no, the nicer school and friends and ballet is better for the child".

I said harsh, direct words to her because I cared about her and her child. 

She is still my friend and still loves me. She wishes she had listened to me and all the others who urged her to listen to her inner voice and instincts and left sooner! 

I have had to do very difficult interventions of others kinds with friends and family members. It can be done without judgments being laid.


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## Phenix70

Faithful Wife said:


> I hear you, Phoenix. *I have actually said very stern words to my friend about the fact she should leave. Not those words you used, but mine were just as direct.* It bothered me because I could see her withering away and her child being more and more damaged by the day, and I told her so. And it bothered me that she wasn't willing to listen to that inner voice that kept urging her to run away, get away. She shoved that voice way down, but I knew it was there because when things were bad my arms were open to her at any time and she'd use my shoulder (with my blessing). So I knew in her deepest fears, she worried that her situation may be screwing her child over, but in her "make it work" moments she shushed that part of herself and said "no, the nicer school and friends and ballet is better for the child".
> 
> *I said harsh, direct words to her because I cared about her and her child. *
> 
> She is still my friend and still loves me. She wishes she had listened to me and all the others who urged her to listen to her inner voice and instincts.
> 
> *I have had to do very difficult interventions of others kinds with friends and family members. It can be done without judgments being laid*.


You get it. 
There is immense difference between offering direct interventions & passing judgment from the safety of the Internet. 
What you said to your friend came from a place of love and true concern, you truly wanted her to "hear" you because of your fear for her.
I've done exactly the same thing myself, & I also didn't tell my friend she wasn't leaving her husband because she was lazy & uneducated.


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## soccermom2three

> But here's another truth: Don't rely financially on your spouse, be it a male or female spouse.


:iagree:

I've talked to my 18 year old daughter about this very subject. Always be able to take care of yourself and your kids. When I became a SAHM when my youngest was born, I made sure I kept in contact with my managers, colleagues and the owner of the company. When I was ready to come back to work, I had two job offers. In those 7 years that I was not working if my husband had a mid life crisis or something and decided to leave, I could have made a few phone calls and had job somewhere.

My advice to her is even if you want to be a SAHM, always keep your contacts and continuing education up to date and even work part time. Don't just walk away from your career thinking everything will be okay. 

I know it's a terrible way to think but how many women think their marriages are great and then they're blindsided. This happened to my mom 27 years ago when the OW showed up at the front door. Even though my Dad threw the OW under the bus, my mom really didn't have a choice but to stay and reconcile. My parents were married in 1963, they were old school, she was a SAHM and a SAHW. No job experience. If my Dad had decided to go off with the OW, alimony would not have covered the house payment and other living expenses (Brother and I were over 18, so no child support). She probably would have had to move back with my grandma or aunt.


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## Faithful Wife

I definitely think every adult should have some contingency plan in place in case of "the worst possible anything/everything". What would you do if your entire world were pulled out from under your feet? At least just having a plan or an idea of it is a good exercise for everyone. Having no plan at all when those things occur is how people end up homeless. Sometimes it has nothing to do with your own efforts or worthiness or anything...life can slap the sh*t out of you and leave you stranded. At least consider what you would do in that case and think through the worst case scenario.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

mablenc said:


> There are also trainings, certifications, and temp agencies, not judging only pointing out the options.


I'm guessing that in some situations a controlling or abusive husband would not support that and that these things would have to be done as a prerequisite to leaving.


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## Nikita2270

> Does it bother you?


Yes, it drives me nuts that women in a country that have been granted the rights that we have, don't realize how lucky they are and use their choices.



> I see a lot of judgment in this thread & to me that's sad.
> It's no wonder people don't reach out for help considering just the small sampling seen in this thread.
> You don't know someone else's life, you don't know what they go through, the bills they have, the health issues, etc, etc.
> So don't sit there & say, "if it was me, I would do this. These women are just lazy or uneducated."


I think every circumstance is different and there are some women (and men) who have legitimate reasons for not earning a living.

So in those circumstances, the best advice would be to make sure you have contingency plans in place in the event something happens. Partners who care about each other will put this in place.

But if people don't do that, I think its foolish...just like I think someone without house insurance or car insurance or life insurance is foolish. If you want to call that judgmental, whatever... Its a dumb thing to do...period.

And you know what...people are allowed to do whatever dumb stuff they want. Its their life. What drives me nuts is not when a woman makes dumb choices and has to live with bad consequences...that's part of the learning process of life. What drives me nuts is when women do it to their kids. They have no backup plan...they know their partner isn't quite right...they don't prepare when things start going bad...and when it gets intolerable they whine and whine and want everyone to feel sorry for them...when in reality, the only true victims of the situation are the children who had no choice over their caregiver's stupid choices.

That gets on my last nerve.

When you have children, you have a DUTY to try to take care of them and use reasonable judgment over risks that can happen. 

If you're going to put yourself in a situation where you have no backup plan are willing to take the risk for yourself and it goes back...don't whine...its what you chose. But if you have kids, do your job and make contingency plans...its your job as a parent.

We live in a country where women have the right to earn a living, they have the freedom to leave bad marriages, they have the right to be single. Those rights were hard, hard fought by much braver women than me and I have a great disdain for those that don't realize how lucky and blessed we are to have those choices.


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## SimplyAmorous

I have mixed feelings about these sort of situations.. These women need Help, understanding... not to be judged but a way of escape...

For me personally... I tend to look at everything from a mindset of ...reducing risks.. that's just how my brain functions..it starts early on...even before we date....

.... I am like REALLY freaking BIG on knowing a man's history... I mean EVERYTHING .. if he drinks too much/ had DUI's/ ever did drugs...is he a gambler... what are his friends like (speaks volumes about a person)...his family...slept around too much (Player)... mental illness, what are his beliefs/ values/ his dreams, ambitions......is he kind, loving, honest in all things....self aware, forgiving, or blows off the handle & treats others like dirt/ 2nd class citizens..... how does he treat waitresses for example..

If a woman goes against sound advice -seeing the red flags of an abuser while dating (and many do, they push it down, they think he will change or it will get better... they have some lust attraction & put up with his Sh**).... 

I say NO !!! WAKE UP.... *THIS BOTHERS ME *!!! WHY WHY WHY... what a man is made of.. will continue after the vows!! 

Listen to sound advice to avoid some of these awful miserable situations...that are bound to get worse.. be very very careful to whom you attach yourselves too. It all starts *here*..it's like a seed that can destroy your life the more it grows..

Now...If a woman did all she possibly could to weed these types out...this will only help her in her life.. *to lower these particular risks*...(if she then decides to trust her Husband....a GOOD MAN...and lean on him financially in the event of children (because it's what they both want & it works).....I don't find anything wrong with her position in life.. if this is what brings him & her happiness...they plan well...both show responsibility... save well ...and in the event he dies... she will Be OK.. 

We must think long haul.. even in our younger years. .. 

It just seems -everyone feels the RISK is the same. I don't feel it is the same.. not all men are abusers, but I would bet near 90% show symptoms while dating.. if one is looking closely enough....


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## Nikita2270

> I have mixed feelings about these sort of situations.. These women need Help, understanding... not to be judged but a way of escape...


lol...I've made plenty of dumb choices in life and I welcome what people on here are calling "judgment.". We learn in life from fixing the things we do wrong, listening to critical feedback from others and doing a better job in the future. If you want to grow in life...OWN your mistakes and be proud when you fix them. 

Sorry, perhaps I'm harsh but I'm not into coddling stupidity. I would hate if I had friends that did that to me.

Of course, when I do something stupid and it goes bad, I wouldn't like someone to kick me when I'm down. But what I'd wayyyy rather have isn't someone to whine to afterward but a friend to tell me the truth when I'm actually in the process of being an idiot.

And women that sit around and don't have the means to earn a living or have a backup plan in case something goes wrong are making idiotic choices. Its just a fact. I could spend all day quoting marriage statistics but we all pretty much know the math and probabilities.

I've travelled to some nasty places in the world. Places where women really live in real strife. They can't drive, they can't earn a living, they can't dress the way they want, they MUST get married and they MUST stay married...often to men that they have zero interest in and can't pick, and when those marriages are abusive...they have zero recourse, they literally cannot protect their own children....and no one cares.

Women in this country routinely kick their civil rights in the teeth, not understanding how fortunate they are. There is no woman in America that HAS to stay in any abusive situation. That isn't the case in many, many countries. We are BLESSED!

Calling that out isn't judgmental...its simply honest and realistic. And frankly, I'm not about to start bursting into a pity party for women that do stupid crap...I'm into owning mistakes...sorry but that's the way I roll.

p.s. Edit:


> There is no woman in America that HAS to stay in any abusive situation.


I should have pointed out that that's unless they're kept in captivity, which has happened (thinking of those poor young women in Ohio, for instance). Those women had their right rights truly taken away.


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## Racer

Borrowed from an article from Micheal Powell about prison… But I see connections to all abusive relationships and households. I’m ‘one of those guys’…. 



> One of the common approaches to "doing time" in a prison community is to "shut the world out." This refers to shutting the "outside" world out and bringing all your focus into the world within the fences or walls. There is no world "out there" anymore, only the world inside the fences or walls. It seems, to a certain degree, that this is helpful. In the sense that we seek to be fully present in the currently arising instant. Prisoners are less likely to construct a chain of thoughts related to their spouse’s loyalty, or to the many things which they’re missing out on. People do "hard time" when they keep projecting their thoughts "out there" beyond the prison perimeter.
> 
> Years pass, and prison simply becomes the place where we live. The punishment aspect fades away. We become accustomed to our environment, our world, and we even become comfortable..


I’ve learned ‘the rules’ inside these walls. I adapt and survive. I can continue to do so indefinitely and sort of set my own comforts. I just know, it is supposed to be ‘better’ outside. But that’s a far away land and not my current reality. It’s too easy to see it as a fantasy ‘out there’.


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## Faithful Wife

I think a good test of a relationship (ie: the mutual choice to be in one) is "if we all won the lottery today and had financial freedom, would we still choose to be together?"


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## 2galsmom

You are bothered by people in abusive relationships? We see that here all the time, the "tough love" people who want to shake the person and others who without knowing their history expose themselves as possible abusers themselves when they chime in which I would never let that happen to me,

Yeah, so what?

I did not understand myself the extent to which a learned sense of helplessness paralyzes a person in an abusive relationship until after I left and was destroyed financially. Little by little you give up yourself to "make peace" you give up things that your spouse find uncomfortable and little by little you give up dependence as you are being ridiculed, attacked, terrorized in some cases and you end up with a sense not only of helplessness but in some cases a belief that your abuser is "omnipresent" and "omnipowerful."

All part of what is called Battered Woman's Syndrome but I see no reason why it wouldn't happen to men aside from the fact that often to "make a marriage work" women resort to traditional gender roles of total submission which in turn leaves them financially dependent on the abuser.

It is bizarre to go through it and I ought to know.

You genuinely feel helpless and inside you know that the financial abuse and punishment your abuser will render will be horrible. A large percentage of women go back due to financial reasons, it is the abuser's dream! HAH HAH I WON'T PAY NOW COME BACK TO ME.

You don't understand, you underestimate the effects of repeated psychological and emotional TRAUMA that results in battered person's syndrome. If you don't understand you are either in it yourself, or blessed, very blessed. 

When abused you literally lose a sense of reality as you have conformed the the reality dictated by your abuser, you adopt a parallel world of darkness.

I don't recommend it.

Yet escape can be done. I am actually at the point now where people who make comments like, "You are pathetic, You want to be a victim. I would kick his A$$ if he touched me" amusing, I do not trigger. Those are completely pointless and narcissistic comments made by frog knows who and with what agenda.

Watch out, an abuse victim knows how to deal with YOU.

Strength lies beyond the walls and it is a daily battle.


----------



## Racer

Faithful Wife said:


> I think a good test of a relationship (ie: the mutual choice to be in one) is "if we all won the lottery today and had financial freedom, would we still choose to be together?"


Meh.. I'm not so sure. I had the money, and even a spare house just a few blocks away. I still found excuses to stay. Now that I'm basically broke, I still find excuses like "I'm broke and can't afford to leave."  Just saying that at some point, you are sort of indoctrinated into 'this is how it works inside these walls' and that you remain focused there. Outside is an abstract concept and not "home". Not fear... just not what you know. The excuses are essentially for others. You can't just say; "Hey, I'm f'd up and I've been inside so long, this actually feels normal to me." You absolutely know it is wrong, you are ashamed, but you need some plausible reason you are still there to save some face. 

Ok, and 'sick'; That abuse feels normal because it is the predictable pattern. You actually get nervous when it doesn't come and you know it should have based on 'the rules'. You actually get nervous that it's a sign that they no longer care and have given up on you. It's never been a 'good sign' when it stops. That's how it works "inside". You do something you know should illicit some condescending remark, and when it doesn't, that is what's odd and you go ape trying to figure out what changed or if they are feeling ok. 

Ugh... my own head scares me.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Racer, see you do get it. Your answer is/was "yes". Maybe it won't be forever, but it is for now.


----------



## 2galsmom

Oh I forgot, not everyone becomes financially dependent, often the abuser manages to make themselves financially dependent on the abused to control you that way! EVEN BETTER! Your finances are still merged and then you have to go to the court and say, "Um. He does not work, he is either fired or quits his jobs, he has issues he won't address, I want to leave him. Do I have to keep paying him? I know he has nowhere to go, I know that looks bad but I can't buy him out"

Good luck to all of you "who can't leave."


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## Miss Taken

Not directed at any post on this thread or anyone at all, just some ramblings if you will....

Something that took me a LONG time to "get" is that: 

1) EVERYONE, yes, EVERYONE is fighting SOME kind of battle in life.

-AND-

2) Some people are MORE *resilient *than others.

When I was a kid and saw my peers struggling with their parents divorce, I would think, "So what?! At least you HAVE parents!" Having been orphaned at thirteen.

Seriously, I was pretty cold back then. I believe that adversity could either teach you compassion or callousness. So at the time, feeling my life was harder than most, and my problems larger and that I handled them fine - I didn't have a lot of *empathy *at the time. 

I do now because I remember #2 above. It's IMPORTANT. Just because I/you ("you" is general here) would be able to cope with ABC and do XYZ to tackle it, doesn't mean that someone else is equipped or built that way. 

On a similar, yet unrelated note, I think that we are all equally capable and equally guilty of being indignant and "experts" on every hypothetical scenario under the sun. It is so easy to have all of the answers for everyone else's problems and yet, it's funny how much contrasts we see when those problems become our own! Suddenly most of us turn into complete dolts when faced with the intricacies and dynamics of other people's problems in our own lives.

I am no Saint, I'm not perfect and am still guilty of passing judgment because I'm human like everyone reading this (unless your dog, cat or ferret also reads and if so, I'm impressed) but I try to remember the above... TRY to.


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## Nikita2270

> Meh.. I'm not so sure. I had the money, and even a spare house just a few blocks away. I still found excuses to stay. Now that I'm basically broke, I still find excuses like "I'm broke and can't afford to leave." Just saying that at some point, you are sort of indoctrinated into 'this is how it works inside these walls' and that you remain focused there. Outside is an abstract concept and not "home". Not fear... just not what you know. The excuses are essentially for others. You can't just say; "Hey, I'm f'd up and I've been inside so long, this actually feels normal to me." You absolutely know it is wrong, you are ashamed, but you need some plausible reason you are still there to save some face.


When you have kids, you have a responsibility to do better.

Adults are participants...they make choices. Kids are victims...they don't have the right to make choices.



> All part of what is called Battered Woman's Syndrome but I see no reason why it wouldn't happen to men aside from the fact that often to "make a marriage work" women resort to traditional gender roles of total submission which in turn leaves them financially dependent on the abuser.


I honestly wish that people in this country could travel to places where women really have no choices and are truly slaves to bad circumstances.

If you really want to see what "Battered Woman's Syndrome" is...take a trip to Pakistan sometime.

Lawd, we're entitled in this country to the point where its ok to never take personal responsibility for anything you do and if you whine about it, everyone's supposed to give you a hug instead of pointing out the obviousness of other choices you could have made.

Again, I'm gonna ignore my invitation to the pity party. American women enjoy rights that so many women in the world could never even conceive of.

I remember when I was a kid whining about not having the nice jeans that my friends had. You know what my mom told me? She said..."I've put a roof over your head and I make sure that you're educated...now get off your ass and get a job." I never whined to my mom because the second I did, she would remind me that I was in control of my own destiny and could work to get the things I wanted.

My mom died last year but I'm thankful for her everyday for teaching me the value of self-reliance and the value of owning my mistakes instead of wasting time deflecting the blame elsewhere.


----------



## Nikita2270

> Borrowed from an article from Micheal Powell about prison… But I see connections to all abusive relationships and households. I’m ‘one of those guys’….
> 
> 
> Quote:
> One of the common approaches to "doing time" in a prison community is to "shut the world out." This refers to shutting the "outside" world out and bringing all your focus into the world within the fences or walls. There is no world "out there" anymore, only the world inside the fences or walls. It seems, to a certain degree, that this is helpful. In the sense that we seek to be fully present in the currently arising instant. Prisoners are less likely to construct a chain of thoughts related to their spouse’s loyalty, or to the many things which they’re missing out on. People do "hard time" when they keep projecting their thoughts "out there" beyond the prison perimeter.
> 
> Years pass, and prison simply becomes the place where we live. The punishment aspect fades away. We become accustomed to our environment, our world, and we even become comfortable..


All the more reason that the best way to help people in these situations is to give them perspective with a big dose of real honesty and a swift kick in the butt.

There are literally THOUSANDS of resources for women and mothers in this country to get help when they're in tough situations.

The entire family law system is set-up to enable women to remove themselves from difficult circumstances. There are churches, missions, non-profits and government agencies all set up to provide help to women and children...whether its shelter or food or getting job skills.

Is it easy? Heck no...life is often difficult. But you don't evolve from the easy things in life...you evolve from the stuff that seems impossible while you're going through it. You learn strength from strife.

I just find it amazing that people think the caring thing to do is to help people make excuses for their situation rather than to give honest, real feedback.

If you want to help people, help them face and fix their circumstances...don't help them make excuses for why they're doing it.


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## Cosmos

Where there is abuse (as outlined in the OP) there is always a way of leaving... It mightn't be palatable, but there is help out there for people who want to leave abusive relationships. I know this because I had to swallow my pride and seek help in order to leave one...

It's always harder when there are children involved, but it's actually even more imperative because of it.


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## mablenc

Faithful Wife said:


> Phoenix, I'm not annoyed at all, I just said it bothers me, and really it only bothers me in the case of kids shouldering abuse for any reason that should be the parents responsibility to get them out. I hear your points, too. Hearing about cases other than with children in harm's way don't really bother me or make me think anything one way or the other.


From the cheap seats in the back, I agree with you. If a person wants to put up with abuse for whatever reason they have, fine. However, if you allow someone to abuse your children, then I will pass judgment, the children are really stuck, they have no choice. There is help out there, even if it means giving up costody. The kids deserve a chance, I say this as a person that grew up in a abusive home. If you don't want to get out, at least protect them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

EleGirl said:


> There is a woman who has posted here in the last week. She's been married 41 years. She says that up until recently her marriage was good. But now her husband is cheating and mistreating her. She also says that she does not have the means to leave.
> 
> Unfortunately she has not responded to the replies on her thread so we may never know her circumstancs.
> 
> If she's been a SAHW for 41 years, she's probably 61 or older.
> 
> She says that her husband has blown their savings on some women he met on line in the Ukraine. He's also traveled there to spend time with this woman.
> 
> What if they have nothing left? What if their only income is Social Security and not a lot more. She would only get half of the amount he gets from Social Security. So even if he gets the max.. that's about $2,642 a month. She would get $1,321 a month income.
> 
> Now she could apply for food stamps depending on her state. Here in NM she has an income of less than $1,400 a month so she should be able to get about $189 a month in food stamps. She might be able to get a low income senior housing. I understand that the wait for this is about 1-2 years.


That's still enough to rent a room in a house. And to choose an area where a car is not necessary. Where there's a will, there's a way. I supported myself and my two kids on a just a bit more than that, very nicely, for about 3 years. I could live with $1000 a month, no problem, if it were just me. I don't understand all this "only" qualifiers to this unearned income. It's quite sufficient and most villages/cities do have senior programs and there's also some work program for seniors, to go back to work or to start work. I forget what it's called, but it does exist and I believe it's at the federal level.


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## Phenix70

Actually, the OP makes NO mention of children in the first thread. 
Her vitriol is aimed solely at the women, the women who she thinks are too dumb or lazy to leave their SO's.

Let's go back to one of my other posts.
The judgmental attitudes in this thread, would you say these things to someone in real life?
No, I do not mean the Tough Love approach FW mentioned earlier.
I mean literally telling someone you think you know their life better than they know their own, that they're not leaving because they're stupid or lazy?
That if you were in their place, you would have already had your sh*t packed & out the door.
I'm putting this back on YOU, with the exception of women who HAVE been in this position, who actually have experience to speak of, WHY are you so concerned about another person's relationship that it actually bothers you?
Also do keep in mind, NOT everyone has children, so you can leave that out as well. 
BTW, not ONE person has said because they were worried about the physical or mental safety of the woman.


----------



## Jellybeans

Hope1964 said:


> I do not get this. I see women post about living in horrible conditions - their husband verbally abusing them daily, cheating on them and flaunting it, refusing to allow them their own money, and much worse.
> 
> Is saying "I don't have the means to leave" the same thing as saying "I'm a victim of abuse and I need help to leave"? Are there really this many women out there who have what amounts to battered person syndrome?
> 
> I do not know the answer, but I do know that it really bothers me when someone posts on here for YEARS about their horrible husband, yet just continues to take it and never does anything to change it. Hell, it bothers me when someone just posts on here for a couple of DAYS about the way their husband has treated them for years or decades. Does it bother you?


It doesn't bother me in a personal sense because people will do what they want. I do find it ridiculous though when they say they are miserable yet do NOTHING to make a plan and just keep posting a million times about it. 

My feeling is: where there is a will, there is a way.

Some people would rather stay in a miserable relationship than face life as a single person and/or get a job/career. Some prefer to stay married/partnered and be abused/unhappy rather than face a divorce/being single. 

I do think that in some cases some may not have "the means" literally financially to just leave (in cases where the person does not work, etc) but again, this goes back to: if you want something bad enough and if you are fed up enough, you WILL do something about it. Some people just prefer their status quo.

I have a friend who went back to her abusive d!ck o a partner. He fathered a baby with someone else, calls her fat/a b*tch, refuses to put her name on the title of their home (but was quick to take her money to put down on their house). My friend is beautiful, smart, responsible, hard-working woman. But she stays. She would complain about him all the time and I just told her "I do not want to talk about him anymore." So she stopped. After the last time she went back to him, she didn't tell me til afterwards cause she probably knew I'd roll my eyes. All I told her was "good luck" after she said she moved. Some people prefer misery to being single.


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## Jellybeans

mablenc said:


> From the cheap seats in the back, I agree with you. If a person wants to put up with abuse for whatever reason they have, fine. However, if you allow someone to abuse your children, then I will pass judgment, the children are really stuck, they have no choice.


I totally agree. 100%. It breaks my heart to see people stay in abusive situations when they have children. It is abusive in and of itself to do that. The kids do not have a choice in the matter.

The friend that I mentioned in my last post--her daughter (by her first husband) cannot stand her partner (the d!ck) for how he treats everyone with blatant disrespect. She has opted to go live with her father due to this. Friend has another daughter with the dlck partner and I feel so bad for that little girl. So bad. I cna't imagine what it's like for a baby girl growing up hearing daddy calling mom/women b*tches and cutting them down all the time. 

This is not ok.


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## committed4ever

SimplyAmorous said:


> I have mixed feelings about these sort of situations.. These women need Help, understanding... not to be judged but a way of escape...
> 
> For me personally... I tend to look at everything from a mindset of ...reducing risks.. that's just how my brain functions..it starts early on...even before we date....
> 
> .... I am like REALLY freaking BIG on knowing a man's history... I mean EVERYTHING .. if he drinks too much/ had DUI's/ ever did drugs...is he a gambler... what are his friends like (speaks volumes about a person)...his family...slept around too much (Player)... mental illness, what are his beliefs/ values/ his dreams, ambitions......is he kind, loving, honest in all things....self aware, forgiving, or blows off the handle & treats others like dirt/ 2nd class citizens..... how does he treat waitresses for example..
> 
> If a woman goes against sound advice -seeing the red flags of an abuser while dating (and many do, they push it down, they think he will change or it will get better... they have some lust attraction & put up with his Sh**)....
> 
> I say NO !!! WAKE UP.... *THIS BOTHERS ME *!!! WHY WHY WHY... what a man is made of.. will continue after the vows!!
> 
> Listen to sound advice to avoid some of these awful miserable situations...that are bound to get worse.. be very very careful to whom you attach yourselves too. It all starts *here*..it's like a seed that can destroy your life the more it grows..
> 
> Now...If a woman did all she possibly could to weed these types out...this will only help her in her life.. *to lower these particular risks*...(if she then decides to trust her Husband....a GOOD MAN...and lean on him financially in the event of children (because it's what they both want & it works).....I don't find anything wrong with her position in life.. if this is what brings him & her happiness...they plan well...both show responsibility... save well ...and in the event he dies... she will Be OK..
> 
> We must think long haul.. even in our younger years. ..
> 
> It just seems -everyone feels the RISK is the same. I don't feel it is the same.. not all men are abusers, but I would bet near 90% show symptoms while dating.. if one is looking closely enough....


I wholeheartedly agree with this. Our young girls should be taught the value of education and of preparing themselves to be self-supporting. But they also should be taught how to choose a suitable mate. I have seen countless threads on TAM of women who are seeking advise for toxic situations in which they are not even married, when the only advice that woman should be given is run for the hills! And how many times do we read stories of bad marriages that started off with warning signs BEFORE they were even married. Instead of just focusing all the attention on taking care of yourself and your kids when the marriage goes bad how about focusing some attention on who we choose to marry in the first place. It could avoid a lot of heartache. 

As for showing empathy, some women are incapable of doing so. Its just the way they are wired. And some hide behind the banner of "tough love" as a wa of putting others down. This speaks more of their character than the person they try to belittle. True tough love is what FW did for her friend. Its what posters like Ele do, even though she can be hard heating I have seen her hang in their with a poster when eveyone bows out and considers it useless. And many many others who always seem to try to reach out rather than put down. Whats really sad is that what some posters write is just another kick in the gut to someone who is already downtrodden.


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## Cosmos

Phenix70 said:


> Actually, the OP makes NO mention of children in the first thread.
> Her vitriol is aimed solely at the women, the women who she thinks are too dumb or lazy to leave their SO's.
> 
> Let's go back to one of my other posts.
> The judgmental attitudes in this thread, would you say these things to someone in real life?
> No, I do not mean the Tough Love approach FW mentioned earlier.
> I mean literally telling someone you think you know their life better than they know their own, that they're not leaving because they're stupid or lazy?
> That if you were in their place, you would have already had your sh*t packed & out the door.
> I'm putting this back on YOU, with the exception of women who HAVE been in this position, who actually have experience to speak of, WHY are you so concerned about another person's relationship that it actually bothers you?
> Also do keep in mind, NOT everyone has children, so you can leave that out as well.
> BTW, not ONE person has said because they were worried about the physical or mental safety of the woman.


It bothers me because I've been there and know the damage that living with abuse can cause. The OP was referring to women who _come here seeking advice_ but, for whatever reason, feel unable to make the necessary changes.

I was in a situation where I was isolated with an abuser, had zero support systems and absolutely no one to turn to, and I know how terribly difficult it can be for someone in a situation like that to dig themselves out. Because I managed to do so, I feel compelled to reach out to anyone who feels stuck in a similar situation.

Being concerned about the woman's mental and physical state is a given, IMO. Abuse damages people far more than many people realize, and the longer it goes on the worse the damage.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

I'm concerned at the individual level because it's the accumulation of individual actions that make a society. So long as individuals put themselves and their children in these situations, the culture of violence in our society will prevail. It's not good for everyone, not just the individual. I'm not afraid to say I'm selfish as an individual, about the society and culture in which I live. I've been to countries where there is less violence, and it does start on an individual level, and the individuals then co-create the culture and the society.

At the individual level, I do think it would be better if people could take the plunge and leave their situations. But, our society isn't really set up for that. We're too ready to blame the victim for their bad choices, and have a mindset brought about by media, etc. that they should have made better choices, which I think is ridiculous thinking. Who cares how they got where they got? If they don't belong there and want to leave the situation, enough of the blaming, just move on and carry on. I think if this were encouraged, and supported (financially as well) then there would be less of these kinds of problems overall. But instead we do see victims of domestic abuse suffer even more or even die as a result of trying to leave. So one cannot blame them for staying. We lack the social supports for people to leave with reduced risk.


----------



## Jellybeans

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> Who cares how they got where they got? If they don't belong there and want to leave the situation, enough of the blaming, just move on and carry on. I think if this were encouraged, *and supported (financially as well)* then there would be less of these kinds of problems overall. But instead we do see victims of domestic abuse suffer even more or even die as a result of trying to leave. *So one cannot blame them for staying. * We lack the social supports for people to leave with reduced risk.


Eh. I am not into victim-blaming but find it silly to assume in a case where a woman continues to GO BACK to an abuser that one should not consider "who cares how they got where they got?" Because if someone has left once and gone back after experiencing the abuse, that is completely on them.

Are you saying we/society should "support" financially" people in these situations? While I am all for supportive networks, I do not think I should have to support someone else financially to get out of a situation. 

As for the last bolded part--"one cannot blame them for staying" -- I do not agree. I would never advocate any person stay in an abusive or miserable relationship ever. A person either chooses to continue in that dynamic or make a move. That is again, completely on them, as to what they CHOOSE to do with their life. It is certainly not my choice for them. They have accountability, just as the next person does.

Take my friend as an example: she has her own job/career and can leave (and has before). But she chooses to stay with an abusive partner because she think it's "better" for her daughter. It's not. It's worse. Way worse. Plus she thinks being single is the most horrible thing ever. So she puts herself and her daughter in a fcked up situation every day of her life. That is her choice.


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## Racer

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> So long as individuals put themselves and their children in these situations, the culture of violence in our society will prevail....


I think somewhere this thread got off track to describe more of a physically abusive scenario. The OP stated:



Hope1964 said:


> I do not get this. I see women post about living in horrible conditions - their husband verbally abusing them daily, cheating on them and flaunting it, refusing to allow them their own money, and much worse.


Fits a lot of guys actually too with WW's who are generally vindictive, entitled sorts.

So, the kid angle. In front of them, or family, or friends, it is mostly normal. There might be some tension, but it's not yelling and screaming. Think of it like your sex life... Do your kids really know how it is, or is it they just assume you have sex?


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## EnjoliWoman

Yes, it bothers me. The biggest fear is of the unknown. I thought about leaving since... probably my 4th-5th year of marriage. Before that only during arguments but at that point I think the slow realization that things weren't going to change started setting in and I KNEW I would not be married to him forever. I wasn't sure when I would leave but I knew. Then different life events made it seem like the timing was wrong.

Lack of confidence is huge. But being afraid that you'll fail is also huge. 

Ex and I had a nice 3br/2.5 bath home with a 2-car garage. I knew whatever happened I wouldn't be able to afford much on my income with a car payment plus a place to live and frankly didn't like the idea of living in a run down apartment. It was hard to adjust my standard of living. When I left I rented a little house and it wasn't as nice tho I made it as nice as I could on a budget. And it wasn't until THEN that I realized I'd rather have this tiny 3br/1.5ba house and have PEACE in my life than have the nicer, larger homes I'd had with him.

But during that transition, it's scary and uncertain. I'm sure for those of lesser means it's harder. 

For someone like Ladybird, I'd say to take whatever job she could. I don't know where she lives but at some point you have to lower expectations. Get a job cleaning offices, working at a coffee shop, a grocery store as a clerk - whatever. At least you can live with parents and contribute to the food bill, etc.

Or get a roommate in a similar situation. It's humbling to need a roommate at this age but I did it because it allowed me to save and that savings allowed me to buy a house.

But in the end, it's fear of the unknown. We've learned to manage the fear of the spouse and we've been undermined so much that we don't have the confidence to face the fear of the future and all of the negative 'what ifs' that imply failure.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Hope1964 said:


> at it really bothers me when someone posts on here for YEARS about their horrible husband, yet just continues to take it and never does anything to change it. Hell, it bothers me when someone just posts on here for a couple of DAYS about the way their husband has treated them for years or decades. Does it bother you?


YES. OMG YES. 

There are two particular posters who post here all the time, both of whom have jobs and the means to leave their miserable husbands. Both also have children that are being directly affected by those husbands. Neither one will leave. Who the hell KNOWS why!? They come here and they whine and complain about the same thing over and over, yet they do NOTHING to change the situation! I'm sorry, but if you are not willing to do what it takes to remove yourself and your poor kids from a dysfunctional situation, then you need to suck it up and stop complaining about it. People's empathy and sympathy are not endless pools you can keep dipping into. I was in two different miserable marriages, and had a crappy low paying job but both times I got myself OUT. So I KNOW it can be done, and I admit that I have a very low tolerance to those who CHOOSE to stay a victim. And those who say they dont have the means to leave? The saying is true to life, that where there is a will there's a way. 

And to Racer...it makes me very sad that you are so aware of things but yet you choose to stay. If I am remembering, yours is not an abusive situation, but misery is misery, and there really is happiness "out there", you just need to choose it. Life is too short, and I hope one day you decide that you are worth it.


----------



## EleGirl

Phenix70 said:


> Actually, the OP makes NO mention of children in the first thread.
> 
> Her vitriol is aimed solely at the women, the women who she thinks are too dumb or lazy to leave their SO's.
> 
> Let's go back to one of my other posts.
> 
> The judgmental attitudes in this thread, would you say these things to someone in real life?
> 
> No, I do not mean the Tough Love approach FW mentioned earlier.
> 
> I mean literally telling someone you think you know their life better than they know their own, that they're not leaving because they're stupid or lazy?
> 
> That if you were in their place, you would have already had your sh*t packed & out the door.
> 
> I'm putting this back on YOU, with the exception of women who HAVE been in this position, who actually have experience to speak of, WHY are you so concerned about another person's relationship that it actually bothers you?
> 
> Also do keep in mind, NOT everyone has children, so you can leave that out as well.
> 
> BTW, not ONE person has said because they were worried about the physical or mental safety of the woman.


I've been around here a while and read lot (thousands) of threads, many of which are written by men and women in abusive relationships. I have a pretty good idea of the regulars who post here and what they think.. of course a lot of this frustration being discussed here is based on concern for the physical and mental safety of the women (and men) who post about the bad situations they are in. I believe that's a given for most of the folks who post here. 

That's the basis of the frustration when some posts about a terrible situation in which they are living but will not consider any way of getting out of the situation. Some people just want to vent. I'm not real interested in just listening to someone vent over a situation that makes me upset to read about. I think that many here feel the same way. It's one thing is an abused person is working on an exit plan. It's quite another if they just want to complain and not do anything to improve their situation.

If a person chooses to stay in a bad situation then I (and others here) have the right to chose to not just be their sounding board. 

And yes I've been in abusive relationships. Yes I stayed too long. I stayed with my son's father about 4 years too long because the first time I tried to divorce him moved out with our son. The ex was mentally and physically abusive. The stupid stupid judge ordered that I give our son to his father who would get 100% custody because I moved out. So I returned. This was a snap decision made by a judge with a long history of making some very odd decisions that put children at risk. So I stayed in the abusive situation to protect our son from his father, to reestablish that his father did not have 100% custody, to better prepare a custody case and to make sure that judge was out of the picture.


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## Caribbean Man

EnjoliWoman said:


> *Lack of confidence is huge. But being afraid that you'll fail is also huge. *
> 
> 
> But in the end, it's fear of the unknown. We've learned to manage the fear of the spouse and we've been undermined so much that we don't have the confidence to face the fear of the future and all of the negative 'what ifs' that imply failure.


:iagree:

What we , by we I mean those of us who haven't been through that type of experience, don't get is that what you said about lack of confidence.

Lack of confidence and self esteem is what got most women in that position in the fist place. So it would be difficult to expect them to have the confidence and courage to leave if they never really had it, before the abuse.

Abusers don't wear horns on their heads, they are often hardcore , closet narcissist / emotional manipulators who choose their victims based on their vulnerable emotional state, and slowly break them down.

Enjoli, would you mind posting a link to your story?

I think your story paints a pretty clear picture of how it happens and the self doubt and fear that paralyzes.


----------



## Racer

Thanks 3X... But like you say, and I agree with, you can't just sit there and do nothing. 

In my situation there has been a lot of change. 5 years now trying and making change. I'm tired, worn down, etc. There's been a ton of headway as far as how she handles things, but massive reverting on the things important to me in a relationship. Currently "friendzoned" and sexless again. I think about divorce and other relationships on a daily basis now. Not good stuff for the R... But I'm currently broke, hence why I popped on this thread; That's my excuse at the moment.

I could, it is possible, I do know it. I just don't like the emotional cost it will have (not so much marriage, but the shutting the doors on the business to make it happen side of things), but at the current rate, staying already has a steep price tag emotionally and well... inflation that happens with reverting on core needs within the relationship.


----------



## Cosmos

Racer said:


> I think somewhere this thread got off track to describe more of a physically abusive scenario.


As a survivor of physical, emotional and financial abuse, the physical was nothing compared to the other two. Even though the physical has left me with a serious medical condition, the emotional and financial abuse was far worse.

Never under-estimate the effects of of emotional and financial abuse. This, of course, applies to both genders.


----------



## EleGirl

Caribbean Man said:


> What we , by we I mean those of us who haven't been through that type of experience, don't get is that what you said about lack of confidence.
> 
> Lack of confidence and self esteem is what got most women in that position in the fist place. So it would be difficult to expect them to have the confidence and courage to leave if they never really had it, before the abuse.
> 
> Abusers don't wear horns on their heads, they are often hardcore , closet narcissist / emotional manipulators who choose their victims based on their vulnerable emotional state, and slowly break them down.
> 
> Enjoli, would you mind posting a link to your story?
> 
> I think your story paints a pretty clear picture of how it happens and the self doubt and fear that paralyzes.


The word "paralyzes" is so appropriate for what happens to a person. This and the lack of confidence is why counseling is so important. Many times a victim of abuse does not have anyone they can talk to. They feel isolated for a good reason as the abuser generally works to isolate them from any support system. 

Finding good counseling that is specific to abuse is very important for most victims of abuse.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Racer said:


> Thanks 3X... But like you say, and I agree with, you can't just sit there and do nothing.
> 
> In my situation there has been a lot of change. 5 years now trying and making change. I'm tired, worn down, etc. There's been a ton of headway as far as how she handles things, but massive reverting on the things important to me in a relationship. Currently "friendzoned" and sexless again. I think about divorce and other relationships on a daily basis now. Not good stuff for the R... But I'm currently broke, hence why I popped on this thread; That's my excuse at the moment.
> 
> I could, it is possible, I do know it. I just don't like the emotional cost it will have (not so much marriage, but the shutting the doors on the business to make it happen side of things), but at the current rate, staying already has a steep price tag emotionally and well... inflation that happens with reverting on core needs within the relationship.


Well I think you are paying a steeper price, currently. My heart hurts for you.


----------



## Jellybeans

EnjoliWoman said:


> Yes, it bothers me. The biggest fear is of the unknown.
> 
> Lack of confidence is huge. But being afraid that you'll fail is also huge.


:iagree:



EleGirl said:


> That's the basis of the frustration when some posts about a terrible situation in which they are living but will not consider any way of getting out of the situation. Some people just want to vent. I'm not real interested in just listening to someone vent over a situation that makes me upset to read about. I think that many here feel the same way. It's one thing is an abused person is working on an exit plan. It*'s quite another if they just want to complain and not do anything to improve their situation.
> *
> 
> If a person chooses to stay in a bad situation then I (and others here) have the right to chose to not just be their sounding board.


:iagree:

I honestly think it depends on the person and when they have had enough and actually wish to do something about it.

If someone wants out of a bad relationship, they *WILL* make it happen, despite the odds. And nothing in the world will hold them back. I find that women who truly want to say sayonara actually do it. And the strength of one thousand men will not keep them from getting the fck out of dodge. 

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

My mother's friend is in a marriage w/ a man who is emotionally abusive--like, the worst. She has been saying she is going to leave him ever since I met her. No, she's not. She would rather stay in a totally awful marriage than do it on her own. She has been singing the same song about how much he sucks (and he does) for as long as I've known her. People just roll their eyes when she talks about him.


----------



## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

Three years after leaving my ex, I still have worries.
For instance, I am graduating and marching and a marshall.
It's crossed my mind that my ex will show up and gun me down, knowing where I'll be at a particular point in time, and enjoying my accomplishments and my new life. It's the history behind thoughts like these and our culture of violence that makes it difficult for people to leave abusive relationships. I should not have to live a life where I only feel truly at ease when vacationing overseas, where I know I'm far away from people who would like to see me harmed in some way. But, that's the way it is. Paying the rent is honestly the last of my problems. Having to worry about personal security on a day to day basis, is.


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## jb02157

This makes me mad to because financially, every woman has the means to leave. They pretty much in every case all clean up in divorce court and leave their husband poor and without access to his children. That's the reason why I haven't left.


----------



## Jellybeans

jb02157 said:


> They pretty much in every case all clean up in divorce court and leave their husband poor and without access to his children. That's the reason why I haven't left.


How wrong you are. Way to stereotype women. 

Many women leave w/ nothing but the clothes on their back just so they can get away from a horrible relationship.

I know a woman who left with nothing but the clothes on her back. Was married and entitled to HALF. She told him to keep it all including the house. He thought she was a nut cause she didn't want anything and she told him she'd prefer her sanity to living w/ him.

As for the "reason" you haven't left - that is because you have CHOSEN not to. Do not blame stereotypes or divorce courts on you staying in a relationship. You are fully capable of leaving.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

jb02157 said:


> This makes me mad to because financially, every woman has the means to leave. They pretty much in every case all clean up in divorce court and leave their husband poor and without access to his children. That's the reason why I haven't left.


Yeah, my $200 a month child support keeps me in the lap of luxury.


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## Jellybeans

:rofl: 3x.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

jb02157 said:


> This makes me mad to because financially, every woman has the means to leave. They pretty much in every case all clean up in divorce court and leave their husband poor and without access to his children. That's the reason why I haven't left.


I don't know any court that prevents EITHER parent from having access to their children. In fact, even parents who have left scars on their kids get to visit with them albeit supervised.

The courts figure out what it takes to feed, clothe and care for the children then divides that cost by the parents based on income and marital assets and debts are divided 50/50 in no-fault states and/or whatever the parties agree to.

I don't think generalizations are helpful, especially when they aren't true. 

If you are being abused by your wife, then document it with photos or recordings and leave with your kids to protect them.


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## Hope1964

I am glad I started this thread  Lots of valuable input!

My OP wasn't really made with children in mind - that just adds another layer to the problem I think. Nor was it made with only physical abuse in mind, or even mainly physical abuse. I think most of us have an understanding of why abused women stay. I think, though, that maybe there are more things that make women feel that way than just hitting them.

As for the 'vitriol' I am supposedly spewing, well, take it that way if you must, but there ARE women who stay in horrible relationships because they are too lazy or uneducated to get out. It isn't necessarily their fault they're that way, but it is their fault (barring mental illness) if they don't take it upon themselves to make a change for the better.

Every situation is different. So is every poster. The thing that I think is so bad is women simply ignoring everything everyone says to them and just posting over and over again about the same old same old. For YEARS in some cases (the two posters 3x mentioned come to mind). Saying you don't have the means to leave is a total cop out if it's obvious that you DO have the means. It's also a cop out if you're just refusing to put in the effort to obtain the means.


----------



## jb02157

3Xnocharm said:


> Yeah, my $200 a month child support keeps me in the lap of luxury.


A lawyer I once talked to said that the average childcare/alimony payment is somewhere around $3500-$4000 per month. We went through the exercise of finding out what my situation would be like. I would get only 35% of my pay and a 40/60 split of the house. That would put me below the poverty line. He said that ...and I'm NOT making this up... if you are female you will get full custody of all children, so I would only see them a couple hours every other weekend. I think that's pretty good for not having to do a damn thing.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

jb02157 said:


> A lawyer I once talked to said that the average childcare/alimony payment is somewhere around $3500-$4000 per month. We went through the exercise of finding out what my situation would be like. I would get only 35% of my pay and a 40/60 split of the house. That would put me below the poverty line. He said that ...and I'm NOT making this up... if you are female you will get full custody of all children, so I would only see them a couple hours every other weekend. I think that's pretty good for not having to do a damn thing.


Get another consult. Seriously. Find an attorney that would actually put forth some effort for their client.


----------



## Hope1964

jb02157 said:


> A lawyer I once talked to said that the average childcare/alimony payment is somewhere around $3500-$4000 per month. We went through the exercise of finding out what my situation would be like. I would get only 35% of my pay and a 40/60 split of the house. That would put me below the poverty line. He said that ...and I'm NOT making this up... if you are female you will get full custody of all children, so I would only see them a couple hours every other weekend. I think that's pretty good for not having to do a damn thing.


Sounds like he was setting you up for his own incompetence.

In Canada there's a formula they plug the non custodial parents income into to figure out child support. My ex only had to pay just over $500 a month for 3 kids, and he still managed to rack up over $70,000.00 in arrears by never paying a thing.

For a woman trying to get out of her relationship, counting on child support or alimony is complete folly. That isn't getting away from your spouse - it's just prolonging the relationship, keeping you dependent on him, and not solving the problem of becoming independent. You are not independent if you rely on your ex for money to live!!

Anyone with children can get out and go on welfare if that's all they have. I did it. Living well below the poverty line is often preferable to staying with an a$$hole. Or is the social net in the US so bad that this isn't an option? I have no problem with women that use the welfare system this way - that's what it's for. And living that way doesn't even have to be a struggle. You find resources for things that you never knew existed before. You network. There are tons of things for free if you know where to look - free tax returns, haircuts, babysitting, clothes, beds, toys, eye exams, dental work, food, computers, school supplies, you name it. You just have to be willing to shrug off the social stigma many attach to being on WELFARE. My kids are grown now but they talk about the years I was a single mom with fond memories, not bleak ones.


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## Nikita2270

> Her vitriol is aimed solely at the women, the women who she thinks are too dumb or lazy to leave their SO's.


There was no vitriol. She posed a question based on her observances. The fact of the matter is that there are many, many posts on this forum started by women who have willingly put themselves in unfortunate situations.



> The judgmental attitudes in this thread, would you say these things to someone in real life?
> 
> I mean literally telling someone you think you know their life better than they know their own, that they're not leaving because they're stupid or lazy?
> That if you were in their place, you would have already had your sh*t packed & out the door.


I don't see where anyone used those words besides you. If I knew someone in this situation and its highly unlikely that I ever will...I pick my friends carefully, they're generally people I emulate...I would probably tell them that staying in a bad relationship is usually a choice and point them to local resources that could help them get out of their situation.

What I wouldn't do is tell them that they're a victim.

People need to stop throwing the word "victim" around...it minimizes the suffering of true victims and it makes people who participate in their own demise believe that they are powerless to change their circumstances.

A victim is someone who has no choice in what happens to them.

-ie. Someone who gets hit by a drunk driver, someone who gets shot at a mall, etc.

The victim label would also apply to the children of women who WILLINGLY CHOOSE to stay in bad relationships.

But the women that choose it aren't victims...they are PARTICIPANTS. They choose to stay despite the plethora of resources available to American women to leave bad relationships.

Every person has the right to decide the quality by which they want to live their life. But don't complain about it if you actively choose it.

By the way, the harshest critics of women who stay in stupid relationships are their adult children who grow up to truly resent the mothers that didn't bother to protect them.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Nikita2270 said:


> A victim is someone who has no choice in what happens to them.
> 
> -ie. Someone who gets hit by a drunk driver, someone who gets shot at a mall, etc.
> 
> The victim label would also apply to the children of women who WILLINGLY CHOOSE to stay in bad relationships.
> 
> But the women that choose it aren't victims...they are PARTICIPANTS. They choose to stay despite the plethora of resources available to American women to leave bad relationships.
> 
> Every person has the right to decide the quality by which they want to live their life. But don't complain about it if you actively choose it.


I agree with you, however these women PLAY victim in these situations. Like they have no choice. Like they have no control over how they are living.


----------



## Nikita2270

> At the individual level, I do think it would be better if people could take the plunge and leave their situations. But, our society isn't really set up for that. We're too ready to blame the victim for their bad choices, and have a mindset brought about by media, etc. that they should have made better choices, which I think is ridiculous thinking. Who cares how they got where they got? If they don't belong there and want to leave the situation, enough of the blaming, just move on and carry on. I think if this were encouraged, and supported (financially as well) then there would be less of these kinds of problems overall. But instead we do see victims of domestic abuse suffer even more or even die as a result of trying to leave. So one cannot blame them for staying. We lack the social supports for people to leave with reduced risk.


The problem is that abuse is generally on an escalating scale.

So it starts with disrespect, verbal abuse, isolation...and many of the women make excuses and stay.

Then it escalates to slapping, more serious verbal abuse, etc....and many of the women make excuses and stay.

Eventually the violence will escalate to truly dangerous situations for both the women and children (if she has them)...sometimes the women will STILL stay. 

There are many, many systems set-up for women to get shelter, food, job postings and the law system is there too...but once the violence gets to a certain level, the system often can't provide constant surveillance for these women.

The law system already spends wayyyy too much time and money on domestic abuse situations. They actually had to change the laws to make domestic violence a mandatory arrest because so many women would call the cops and then not bother to press charges and leave.

The fact of the matter is that at some point, there is a critical mass at which these women put themselves at extreme peril by their own actions. Unfortunately for everyone (including taxpayers who foot the bill for domestic violence cases) the system will probably never be able to protect a certain percentage of these women.

Bottom line...choices have consequences...sometimes harsh ones.


----------



## ladybird

Feeling-Lonely said:


> Have you applied for a dishwasher or waitress position? It just seems impossible to not get anything at all? I have worked as a waitress and guest services for years, can actually make good money.


 Yes I have, pizza delivery driver anything I can do that doesnt require a collage degree. Even thing I have no need experiance in like working in an office, im smart and know my way around a computer Still havent found a job. Ive tried selling stuff online to make a buisness out of it, it hasnt worked out as I hoped it would.. I am not opposed to busting my ass working. I want to! I just want to have a steady flow of incom coming in because kids cost money and so does keeping a roof over their heads and food in their mouths. I know ill get child support, but how long does that really take for it to start and I am not going to rely on just that to survive. Im done relying on other people.


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## Nikita2270

Duplicate...


----------



## Nikita2270

> however these women PLAY victim in these situations. Like they have no choice. Like they have no control over how they are living.



Yes and its the main thing I DETEST about the "Whiner Culture" we have in American society.

When you are a victim, you are not EMPOWERED to change your life. By mislabeling yourself or someone else this way, you cripple the ability to change.

Victims have no other path...they were literally just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

That does not apply to the women we're discussing on this thread.

The problem lies in that too many Americans don't have perspective.

I'll give you an example...when I make things my daughter doesn't like for dinner, she'll often refuse to eat...which is her choice. An hour later, she'll claim that "she's starving!" I actually banned her from saying that in my house. I've been to places where children are starving and they don't turn down dinner because mom put the wrong sauce on the noodles.

Its a similar situation with too many North American women. They really don't understand how truly fortunate they are. They don't understand what its truly like to be a victim and have no choice to change your circumstances. And its fed by the "whiner culture" in our society.

What's amusing is that fellow whiners think they're doing these women a favor by coddling their nonsense. When in reality, they're crippling their ability to have a better life.


----------



## ladybird

I would also like to add. 

It took my mom 26 years to once and for all leave my dad. He was abusive. If someone isnt ready to leave then they will just continue to go back and forth. They have to be ready to take that step, it isnt easy to do and a lot of the woman are stay at home moms.. like I am


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## ladybird

And if you are in a psycially abusive relationship even if it emotional or mental. You loose your self worth, you have no self respect. You loose it all. You dont feel like you are good enough for anything better.... not to mention if you are being beaten, you are affraid..


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## Nikita2270

> I know ill get child support, but how long does that really take for it to start and I am not going to rely on just that to survive. Im done relying on other people.


You definitely have the right mentality. Child support really isn't designed to do anything but help financially support the children of the relationship.

I admire you trying to find a good job...sometimes its harder work than the job itself. The best way to find work is to talk to everyone you know and tell them you're looking.

Also internet job searches have a 2% job return ratio...so don't count on that. The best way to find a job is to still walk your resume into the building that you want a job at.

There's usually local places that have donated suits...so you can either get one free or really cheap. I donate all my suits to places like that. So get a suit.

Next, have a few people peruse your resume. Make sure its simple, to the point and makes a strong connection between what you've done and the results its had (there's a lot of really good resume builders on-line for free).

Next, make a list of places that you might want to work at...law offices, doctor's offices, insurance firms, etc. 

Next walk into the building and ask to see the H.R. person. Let them know that you'd be interested in working there if they get an opening. 

You can look up the statistics but overwhelmingly its still face-time and personal connections that get people jobs. You can try linked-in too but its still not as good as introducing yourself in person.

Best wishes to you. I wish you the best luck in finding something!! I have a lot of admiration for women like you!


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## Nikita2270

> And if you are in a psycially abusive relationship even if it emotional or mental. You loose your self worth, you have no self respect. You loose it all. You dont feel like you are good enough for anything better.... not to mention if you are being beaten, you are affraid..


There are plenty of women that leave bad or abusive relationships.

There are plenty of resources for women that are in bad or abusive relationships.

Staying is often a choice.


----------



## Hope1964

I am not comfortable saying that women in abusive relationships are making a choice to stay. It's much more complicated than that. There's something missing in many if not most abused women that makes them victims in the sense that they're powerless to stop it. That was partly the reason I had for posting this - are women who have been cheated on, for example, suffering from the same syndrome? Is that why some of them stay and make all kinds of excuses about why they have to stay?

And how do you know? How do you know who is a true victim and who isn't? You can't know on the internet. So you go by what is posted - it's all you can go on. So sure, sometimes true victims get blasted when they shouldn't, and lazy 'whiners' get coddled. That's also why I posted this. I think it's good to talk about this stuff and try to figure it out.


----------



## Nikita2270

> And how do you know? How do you know who is a true victim and who isn't? You can't know on the internet. So you go by what is posted - it's all you can go on. So sure, sometimes true victims get blasted when they shouldn't, and lazy 'whiners' get coddled. That's also why I posted this. I think it's good to talk about this stuff and try to figure it out.


I haven't blasted any particular woman anywhere on this forum ever regarding domestic abuse. I generally don't even bother to post on those particular threads. It would usually be pointless. 99% of the time those women aren't coming here to find solutions...they're coming here to find people to sympathize and whine with them so they can feel validated in their "poor-me" mentality.

I am making general statements based on the general premise that was posed at the beginning of the thread.

Obviously there may be situations of some extreme circumstances that defy the standard logic that most of these relationships take.

However, that doesn't negate the fact that there is often a common thread in the mindset of many of these women and their so-called supporters.

I'm a feminist. I believe in empowering women and helping them....not excusing self-abusive behaviors.


----------



## Cosmos

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> 
> Lack of confidence and self esteem is what got most women in that position in the fist place. So it would be difficult to expect them to have the confidence and courage to leave if they never really had it, before the abuse.


Sometimes, but not always... 

I remember asking my abuse therapist what it was about me that made my ex-abuser think that I would tolerate his behaviour. She told me that abusers are often attracted to strong, confident women because they see them as some sort of trophy and a challenge. They then gain great pleasure in systematically breaking them down... I can still hear mine yelling: "What does it take to break you?!"


----------



## ladybird

Nikita2270 said:


> There are plenty of women that leave bad or abusive relationships.
> 
> There are plenty of resources for women that are in bad or abusive relationships.
> 
> Staying is often a choice.


Back when my mom or my self were in abusive relationships, it wasnt really out there, like it is now.

I went to stay with an aunt, my ex didnt know where she lived. He broke into my grandparents house and stole their address book, to find me. He then had his sister call everyone in the book until she found me at my aunt house and it being an address book, her address was in there so now he knew where I was. He told me that if I didnt meet him he burn the house down with my aunt and I in it... i believed him. He was nuts..even if they do leave sometimes it isnt enough.. my mom moved 300 miles away to get away from my dad. 

I am not making excuses I am only saying that fear will make you do things you wouldnt normally do. Like stay with some one who is toxic to your well being. And if you have never been in that situation you have no right to judge someone for their choice to stay.


----------



## Nikita2270

> Back when my mom or my self were in abusive relationships, it wasnt really out there, like it is now.


Very valid, good point. Things have gotten better in the last 20-25 years.

Funny enough, they need to make some progress in shelters for abused men. You would be surprised how many of them there are and there are very few resources for them.


----------



## Nikita2270

> And if you have never been in that situation you have no right to judge someone for their choice to stay.


If women without children want to stay in those situations, I'm saying its their choice.

I'm not judging them but I'm also not pretending to feel pity for them. Adults have the right to choose their own destiny.


----------



## ladybird

Nikita2270 said:


> Very valid, good point. Things have gotten better in the last 20-25 years.
> 
> Funny enough, they need to make some progress in shelters for abused men. You would be surprised how many of them there are and there are very few resources for them.


:iagree:. There should be because men are abused just as much as woman are.


----------



## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

Nikita2270 said:


> The problem is that abuse is generally on an escalating scale.
> 
> So it starts with disrespect, verbal abuse, isolation...and many of the women make excuses and stay.
> 
> Then it escalates to slapping, more serious verbal abuse, etc....and many of the women make excuses and stay.
> 
> Eventually the violence will escalate to truly dangerous situations for both the women and children (if she has them)...sometimes the women will STILL stay.
> 
> There are many, many systems set-up for women to get shelter, food, job postings and the law system is there too...but once the violence gets to a certain level, the system often can't provide constant surveillance for these women.
> 
> The law system already spends wayyyy too much time and money on domestic abuse situations. They actually had to change the laws to make domestic violence a mandatory arrest because so many women would call the cops and then not bother to press charges and leave.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that at some point, there is a critical mass at which these women put themselves at extreme peril by their own actions. Unfortunately for everyone (including taxpayers who foot the bill for domestic violence cases) the system will probably never be able to protect a certain percentage of these women.
> 
> Bottom line...choices have consequences...sometimes harsh ones.


The men often convince the women that they (the women) are to blame. And when women give birth, they are fragile in the US, economically, we do not have the same benefits as other developed countries do. So if a man is feeling abusive, when the woman has reduced income and the man has increased obligations, things can become dicey. If a woman had benefits for childbirth, and we had better support for day care and not just good day care for the wealthy, things would be more equal. Women might even actually feel as though they were equal, not just be told that hey, we have a society where technically you are equal and have equal power (but in practice this is different.) 

I don't care what any document or law says. We do not really have a society where women are equal. 

We have a society where if a woman is having problems, she made a wrong choice. And the solution, she should have chosen one of those nice guys (typically a conservative who 'does right by his country...' and honors God and will not cheat on his wife, etc. etc. etc.) Nothing is ever said, well, maybe the woman should become sterilized and forget about getting married and just work and have her life. No, the men who accuse of making wrong choices do want women in their life, but the woman who have made wrong choices are, well, they're inferior, and until they learn to be equal in a society that does not provide equal benefits for them, they are to be blamed. 

Argh. I hope these men are reincarnated in a society where women really are equal. It's not the US. If you have a womb in the US, you are cursed. Because even if you have a job that pays really well, if you have a kid with a disability through no fault of your own, and have to end up with any kind of social assistance, you're a freeloader. If you end up with a clever abuser and need to leave, again, you're a freeloader. D*mned if you do, d*mned if you don't. And all these conservative Christians running the country, they don't want to pay any taxes to help these people, their brothers and their sisters. They have caveats about who can get help, essentially who is worthy of being deemed human, and who is not. These people will donate to MS and MD and St. Jude, they will send the International Red Cross money for disaster relief, they will donate blood. But help someone who made a bad choice with the basics of food and medical care, and even housing, no freakin' way. I don't get it. What's wrong with taxes being used for social benefit? Isn't that why we have a government in the first place, or is it to get mechanisms and laws for profiteering? I'm not really sure what country I belong to when I hear this anti-tax anti-social benefits stuff.

And abuse does not escalate in some ordered fashion as described, where it gets worse and worse. A clever abuser knows when to go to counseling, when to act contrite, when to cry, etc. When to make threats, when to slander and paint someone's reputation black or murky around town, when to put medication in someone's food to make them sick. That plan you laid out is for amateurs, or people who like to think that they know what it's like to live in an abusive home, and how smart and clever and resourceful they would be if it were them, regarding leaving.


----------



## EleGirl

Homemaker_Numero_Uno,

There things out there to help people in abusive situations to leave. There are shelters, there's welfare, food stamps, Medicaid and a lot more. 

There is job training, student financial aid.

But as a society we cannot support everyone for the rest of their lives. The society works best when people are employed. 

Unfortunately the job market is not all that good right now. We have shipped a huge percentage of our jobs to other countries. Thus making it harder for unskilled people to find jobs.

I believe in giving people a hand up when they need it. But I believe that this help should lead to them becoming self sufficient.

I also think that our system needs a complete overhaul.


----------



## Phenix70

Nikita2270 said:


> There was no vitriol. She posed a question based on her observances. The fact of the matter is that there are many, many posts on this forum started by women who have willingly put themselves in unfortunate situations.
> 
> 
> 
> *I don't see where anyone used those words besides you.* If I knew someone in this situation and its highly unlikely that I ever will...I pick my friends carefully, they're generally people I emulate...I would probably tell them that staying in a bad relationship is usually a choice and point them to local resources that could help them get out of their situation..


So you didn't read the first post very well, did you?
Here, let me re-post it for you.


> That they're simply unable to fathom the idea of being on their own and providing for themselves, to the point that they live in abjec*t misery for years. Or that they're just too lazy to do it, or too uneducated*.


There you have it, now you know OBVIOUSLY it started with the OP. 
This is why it pays to read ALL the posts in a thread, it help avoids this type of thing.


----------



## Phenix70

Hope1964 said:


> I am glad I started this thread  Lots of valuable input!


Are you kidding?
Value to who?
Oh you mean, the value of knowing there are other people who feel the same way you do?
Because I don't see how the value of talking about other women & their life choice would be helpful, especially since it sure as hell didn't benefit them. 
Oh, was it helpful to other women who share the same bias & overgeneralization against other women because you don't "like" their choices to stay with their SO? 
Wow, I thought it was bad enough when women had to deal with men & having to defend themselves against their stereotypes.
Now I see that women can be just as bad, if not worse. 
SO yes, I do agree it was VERY helpful to start this thread, as it has been an extremely eye opening experience.


----------



## Phenix70

EleGirl said:


> Homemaker_Numero_Uno,
> 
> *There things out there to help people in abusive situations to leave. There are shelters, there's welfare, food stamps, Medicaid and a lot more.
> 
> There is job training, student financial aid.*
> 
> But as a society we cannot support everyone for the rest of their lives. The society works best when people are employed.
> 
> Unfortunately the job market is not all that good right now. We have shipped a huge percentage of our jobs to other countries. Thus making it harder for unskilled people to find jobs.
> 
> I believe in giving people a hand up when they need it. But I believe that this help should lead to them becoming self sufficient.
> 
> I also think that our system needs a complete overhaul.



If you live somewhere those things are available, great, otherwise it's literally all on you.
Even food banks and churches are doing poorly, as contributions have continued to fall off due to the economic situation that lingers on.
I think it's time to shift the mind set of falling back on, "Oh women do have these resources", when that may not be true, as those resources may be limited or gone all together.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

When I left I was pregnant and went to a shelter. They were amazing at getting me back on my feet and staying on them. By the time I gave birth I was in my own apartment, had money coming in and had a set plan for my future. They would give me as much help as I was willing to work for.

I stupidly took him back for a few months after I had my son and he got out of jail, then had to leave again. By that time I did have more means but I had to do a lot of running and apartment switching, late night 911 calls and restraining orders all with a baby. It gets worse before it gets better but it does get better.

I think it's like anything else though, you have to want it or it won't work.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Phenix70 said:


> Are you kidding?
> Value to who?
> Oh you mean, the value of knowing there are other people who feel the same way you do?
> Because I don't see how the value of talking about other women & their life choice would be helpful, especially since it sure as hell didn't benefit them.
> Oh, was it helpful to other women who share the same bias & overgeneralization against other women because you don't "like" their choices to stay with their SO?
> Wow, I thought it was bad enough when women had to deal with men & having to defend themselves against their stereotypes.
> Now I see that women can be just as bad, if not worse.
> SO yes, I do agree it was VERY helpful to start this thread, as it has been an extremely eye opening experience.


Phenix, why so defensive here? There has been no bias or over generalization here. I read your story, and see that you are choosing to get yourself OUT of your situation. Good for you! I hope your plans are coming together and that maybe you can get going sooner than you hoped.

What would your response be if your situation belonged to another woman? The porn issue, the cheating, the disrespect, and the unwillingness to change...and she came here complaining about it weekly but insisted on not leaving, and allowed her husband to continue doing what he is doing? Can you imagine yourself just rolling over and taking this treatment, because it takes work to get out of it?


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Phenix70 said:


> So you didn't read the first post very well, did you?
> Here, let me re-post it for you.
> 
> 
> There you have it, now you know OBVIOUSLY it started with the OP.
> This is why it pays to read ALL the posts in a thread, it help avoids this type of thing.


It's helpful to quote the entire section that way others read it within the proper context.

"Is saying "I don't have the means to leave" the same thing as saying "I'm a victim of abuse and I need help to leave"? Are there really this many women out there who have what amounts to battered person syndrome? I really hope not. But I don't like the alternative either - that too many women today are no more independent than they were 150 years ago and that they depend on a MAN to provide them with the necessities of life. That they're simply unable to fathom the idea of being on their own and providing for themselves, to the point that they live in abject misery for years. Or that they're just too lazy to do it, or too uneducated."

When it's in the full quote you can clearly see she is speculating and not actually saying that's how she feels. She is posing possible scenarios and potential reasons bc she truly doesn't know why people stay in these situations.

Seems there is a lot of projection going on from your end and maybe the topic hits too close to home for you. Might be better to sit this one out rather than work yourself up over things that aren't really what you think they are.


----------



## Cosmos

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> When I left I was pregnant and went to a shelter. They were amazing at getting me back on my feet and staying on them. By the time I gave birth I was in my own apartment, had money coming in and had a set plan for my future. They would give me as much help as I was willing to work for.
> 
> I stupidly took him back for a few months after I had my son and he got out of jail, then had to leave again. By that time I did have more means but I had to do a lot of running and apartment switching, late night 911 calls and restraining orders all with a baby. It gets worse before it gets better but it does get better.
> 
> I think it's like anything else though, you have to want it or it won't work.


Sadly, it's not unusual for abuse victims to return to their abusers. It's only when they decide enough really is enough and decide to work with the 'program' that they are able to break the cycle and become survivors rather than victims.


----------



## Jellybeans

Phenix70 said:


> Are you kidding?
> Value to who?
> Oh you mean, the value of knowing there are other people who feel the same way you do?
> Because I don't see how the value of talking about other women & their life choice would be helpful, especially since it sure as hell didn't benefit them.
> Oh, was it helpful to other women who share the same bias & overgeneralization against other women because you don't "like" their choices to stay with their SO?
> Wow, I thought it was bad enough when women had to deal with men & having to defend themselves against their stereotypes.
> Now I see that women can be just as bad, if not worse.
> SO yes, I do agree it was VERY helpful to start this thread, as it has been an extremely eye opening experience.


Yowza. 

Bias and overgeneralization?

I think it comes down to this: if someone wants to leave a bad relationship, they will.


----------



## survivorwife

Jellybeans said:


> Yowza.
> 
> Bias and overgeneralization?
> 
> I think it comes down to this: if someone wants to leave a bad relationship, they will.


:iagree:

And once the decision is made to leave, they come here and pose the question "I don't have the means to leave" as this thread title proclaims.

As to advice given on the topic, many wise and experienced women here have offered sound advice based on their experiences; asked pertinent questions in regards to resources available in the questioners area, and have offered alternate methods for the person to get their financial ducks in a row.

Some women do have financial challenges based on their locations and/or their children's health and well being. However, in the US there are many resources available. The trick really is doing the research in one's own area and to be focused and willing to pursue whatever means are available.

And I get what the OP is trying to say. There have been threads here that have nothing to do with abuse. I read one here where the woman lost her job, moved in with her boyfriend who traveled out of town alot and she was lonely and wanted out (that is how her thread started). Of course the simple answer is to find a new job to support herself, then move out. Then the story changed in that she really didn't want out, she was bored and lonely and since her bf supported her, she was in no hurry to find a job. Then it was suggested she find a volunteer group or something that tweaked her interest while he was away, but that advise didn't seem to interest her. So what was the point?

I think most of us are here to help; as in address the OP's initial question/concern in regards to finding the means to leave. Or even finding the means to live within the relationship. Financial issues can be overbearing. The economy isn't so great. Money is tight and budgets get challenging, even in the best of relationships. 

So if "means" is the core issue, and countless suggestions have been ignored or dismissed, then I too tend to think that some people are simply not motivated enough to put words into action in order to become financially independent or in a better financial state.

Just my humble opinion, of course.


----------



## Hope1964

Phenix, I don't know your story, and I am sorry I have triggered something with you. Rest assured that the others who have responded to you here do get where I am coming from. I admit to being judgmental towards women who seem to want everyone else to solve their problems for them, but refuse to listen to sound advice when it's given. If you think that's an entitled attitude, I guess we don't have much in common.


----------



## committed4ever

Jellybeans said:


> Yowza.
> 
> Bias and overgeneralization?
> 
> I think it comes down to this: if someone wants to leave a bad relationship, they will.


Actually I think this statement is overgeneralizing. All you can speak to at the end of the day is your own experience. But if you haven't lived someone else's life you can't say what you would do in that case. Im not talking about general subjects like "I've been abused" or "I've been cheated on" or "I had a controlling husband." Im talking about if you have not lived that persons life under whatever circumstances they have lived it, then you cant speak to what you would have done.

Another thing I think we overlook is that not all women can be helped by just one method of help. Tough love may work for some, for others it may be the straw that breaks the camels back. Ask any school teach, any coach, any good parent if they could always use the same method with every person they were dealing with. Those who get the best results will tell you that you cant.


----------



## jld

ladybird said:


> :iagree:. There should be because men are abused just as much as woman are.


Just as much?


----------



## Jellybeans

committed4ever said:


> Actually I think this statement is overgeneralizing. All you can speak to at the end of the day is your own experience. But if you haven't lived someone else's life you can't say what you would do in that case. Im not talking about general subjects like "I've been abused" or "I've been cheated on" or "I had a controlling husband." Im talking about if you have not lived that persons life under whatever circumstances they have lived it, then you cant speak to what you would have done.


To me it's not an overgeneralization to believe that if someone wants to get out of a bad relationship, they will find a way to do it.

It is a choice. 

They can either stay. Or they can leave. 

Will some face challenges? Absolutely. 

But at the end of the day, they have a choice in the matter unless someone is sticking a gun to their head and has them chained/locked up. 

Free will.

Also, I don't pretend my or anyone else's life experience is the same. It is true that one cannot speak to a situation they have not lived. With that said, I have gotten out of a bad relationship where I wondered all the things that are pondered by those in that situation. And the thing is, nothing held me back once I made the decision to get out; when I made the choice to leave.


----------



## Jellybeans

survivorwife said:


> So if "means" is the core issue, and countless suggestions have been ignored or dismissed, then I too tend to think that some people are simply not motivated enough to put words into action in order to become financially independent or in a better financial state.


:iagree:


----------



## committed4ever

Jellybeans said:


> To me it's not an overgeneralization to assume that if someone wants to get out of a bad relationship, they will do it.
> 
> It is a choice.
> 
> You can either stay. Or you can leave.
> 
> Will some face challenges? Absolutely.
> 
> But at the end of the day, you have a choice in the matter unless someone is sticking a gun to your head and has you chained/locked up.
> 
> Free will.


You are saying two different things: that if a person really wanted to leave a relationship, they would do it. And that people have choices. Sure people have choices. However that doesn't mean that because they dont make the choice to leave, they dont want to leave. There could be many other factors that lead them to choose the choice that they dont want, many of them that have been listed here. Im sure you would probably call those choices excuses others may call them reasons, whether invalid or valid. Sometimes its a weighing of the circumstances for pros and cons and seeing which choice has the most pros versus cons.

Sometimes it just takes strength that a person just has not yet built up and maybe never will without a lot of support in real live (not virtual support)


----------



## BeachGuy

committed4ever said:


> You are saying two different things: that if a person really wanted to leave a relationship, they would do it. And that people have choices. Sure people have choices. However that doesn't mean that because they dont make the choice to leave, they dont want to leave. There could be many other factors that lead them to choose the choice that they dont want, many of them that have been listed here. Im sure you would probably call those choices excuses others may call them reasons, whether invalid or valid. Sometimes its a weighing of the circumstances for pros and cons and seeing which choice has the most pros versus cons.
> 
> Sometimes it just takes strength that a person just has not yet built up and maybe never will without a lot of support in real live (not virtual support)


I don't think that's what was meant by the OP's question. I took it to mean people that say they "can't" leave, period. People that truly believe that even if they wanted to in the worst way, think there is no possible way for them to survive if they left. They convince themselves they "would" leave if they could, thinking in their mind that it's not their choice that they stay.

Not so much people that "choose" to stay for other reasons.


----------



## Hope1964

BeachGuy said:


> I don't think that's what was meant by the OP's question. I took it to mean people that say they "can't" leave, period. People that truly believe that even if they wanted to in the worst way, think there is no possible way for them to survive if they left. They convince themselves they "would" leave if they could, thinking in their mind that it's not their choice that they stay.
> 
> Not so much people that "choose" to stay for other reasons.


Yes, there does seem to be those who have convinced themselves they can't leave. But there are also those who put everything down on paper and STILL refuse to see how ridiculous their arguments to stay are. Maybe some of them truly believe their hands are tied. But some of them really do seem to just be too lazy to do what they need to do. Maybe they want someone else to do it for them, or maybe they really would rather just stay and suffer than put the effort out. They do make a choice to remain miserable.


----------



## Jellybeans

committed4ever said:


> Sure people have choices. However that doesn't mean that because they dont make the choice to leave, they dont want to leave.


Well I hear what you are saying but I firmly believe that if someone continually stays in a bad relationship and does nothing at all to change the circumstance, then they are choosing over and over again that situation.

AT some points, something has to give. 

Like that lady I was referring to--has been saying he is going to leave her dlck husband for as long as I've known her. Yet she has done absolutely nothing and made a plan to actually leave him. That is her choice. She chooses to stay in a bad relationship.


----------



## Jellybeans

Hope1964 said:


> Yes, there does seem to be those who have convinced themselves they can't leave.
> 
> They do make a choice to remain miserable.


:iagree: 

And that's just it: anyone CAN leave at any time. 

Barring they are being locked up against their will.


----------



## Hope1964

Jellybeans said:


> :iagree:
> 
> And that's just it: anyone CAN leave at any time.
> 
> Barring they are being locked up against their will.


I think there are also those with whatever type of mental illness that really can't leave too.


----------



## Zanne

Phenix70 said:


> If you live somewhere those things are available, great, otherwise it's literally all on you.
> Even food banks and churches are doing poorly, as contributions have continued to fall off due to the economic situation that lingers on.
> I think it's time to shift the mind set of falling back on, "Oh women do have these resources", when that may not be true, as those resources may be limited or gone all together.


I'm jumping in late here, but I have to agree with Phenix about the availability of some of the resources mentioned in this thread.

I live in the northern edge of a large county which borders a metropolitan area and capitol of our state. IOW, lots of resources within an hour of me! However, I can't get to them.

Even if I had a vehicle, the county offices are 40 min away. When you are down to nothing, you don't exactly have gas money to waste. There is no public transportation here. Again, I need to be several miles south of here to use that.

Shelters, food shelves, etc..... all are several miles away from where I live. My phone is my lifeline right now. If I didn't have that, I wouldn't even have access to the internet.

And even if I can get to those resources, Phenix is right, they are limited right now. Our own church had a food surplus program held after services on Sunday, but couldn't continue it. We also have a church in our small town who was distributing surplus food; had to stop due to increased costs of transporting it. 300+ people would show up every Friday night for that food.


----------



## Zanne

Jellybeans said:


> Well I hear what you are saying but I firmly believe that if someone continually stays in a bad relationship and does nothing at all to change the circumstance, then they are choosing over and over again that situation.
> 
> AT some points, something has to give.
> 
> Like that lady I was referring to--has been saying he is going to leave her dlck husband for as long as I've known her. Yet she has done absolutely nothing and made a plan to actually leave him. That is her choice. She chooses to stay in a bad relationship.


Jellybeans....sigh. You are assuming that most people have had the opportunity to have counseling or support or have read on internet forums. If you haven't had a glimpse at alternatives or what a "normal" life looks like, where would you get the gumption to leave? Especially if you have people in your life telling you that you can't do it?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Jellybeans said:


> Well I hear what you are saying but I firmly believe that if someone continually stays in a bad relationship and does nothing at all to change the circumstance, then they are choosing over and over again that situation.
> 
> AT some points, something has to give.
> 
> Like that lady I was referring to--has been saying he is going to leave her dlck husband for as long as I've known her. Yet she has done absolutely nothing and made a plan to actually leave him. That is her choice. She chooses to stay in a bad relationship.


:iagree:

I was friends with someone like the lady you describe, JB, and after a while, you just cant take the complaining any more because thats all it is. All you can do is roll your eyes, and either change the subject, or remove yourself. I hate to be so cold, but if all you do is gripe and never change things, then you need to shut up about it, stop crying wolf.


----------



## Hope1964

Zanne said:


> Jellybeans....sigh. You are assuming that most people have had the opportunity to have counseling or support or have read on internet forums. If you haven't had a glimpse at alternatives or what a "normal" life looks like, where would you get the gumption to leave? Especially if you have people in your life telling you that you can't do it?


Well, when I posted the OP, I was specifically talking about people that post on TAM  ESPECIALLY the ones who have been posting the same sh!t literally for YEARS.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Zanne said:


> Jellybeans....sigh. You are assuming that most people have had the opportunity to have counseling or support or have read on internet forums. *If you haven't had a glimpse at alternatives or what a "normal" life looks like, where would you get the gumption to leave?* Especially if you have people in your life telling you that you can't do it?


You get the "gumption" from within yourself. No one can do it for you. YOU are the only one in control of your life at the end of the day. Fvck everyone else who tells you that you CANT.


----------



## Zanne

Hope1964 said:


> Well, when I posted the OP, I was specifically talking about people that post on TAM  ESPECIALLY the ones who have been posting the same sh!t literally for YEARS.


Is that a subtle hint?


----------



## survivorwife

Zanne said:


> Jellybeans....sigh. You are assuming that most people have had the opportunity to have counseling or support or have read on internet forums. If you haven't had a glimpse at alternatives or what a "normal" life looks like, where would you get the gumption to leave? Especially if you have people in your life telling you that you can't do it?


And yet here we are. On an internet forum. Gaining a glimpse of others who actually may have a somewhat "normal" life now after dealing with their own personal crisis similar to the topic at hand and saying that it can be done. 

While there may be countless others who have never visited this particular site for a variety of reasons, once here most of the members here do offer valuable (and free) advice based on personal experience.


----------



## Zanne

3Xnocharm said:


> You get the "gumption" from within yourself. No one can do it for you. YOU are the only one in control of your life at the end of the day. Fvck everyone else who tells you that you CANT.


EXACTLY! But it doesn't happen overnight...and it doesn't happen in the same way for everyone. Some people leave and go back.

And again, if you have low self esteem, you will believe the negative things people tell you and maybe even NOT believe it when someone is trying to build you up. It may take time - and talking to people who you can TRUST. Doesn't happen overnight.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Zanne said:


> Jellybeans....sigh. You are assuming that most people have had the opportunity to have counseling or support or have read on internet forums. If you haven't had a glimpse at alternatives or what a "normal" life looks like, where would you get the gumption to leave? Especially if you have people in your life telling you that you can't do it?


It comes from within.Knowing inside your heart that you're unhappy and either it changes or you die that way.

I didn't have internet support,family,or friends when I dug my way out of a terrible series of situations. It was either change the situation or someday end up dead. 

The turning point was being 19,unemployed,8 months pregnant and sitting in the ER at 2am.I was waiting to be taken to the psych dept after being mentally abused so badly I thought I was losing my mind and wanted to kill myself and my baby.

I didn't make it to the psych dept that night.I got up and walked out.I left shortly after that and I honestly don't even know how I made it work...it's mostly a blur of things I block out now. Point is,no one can tell you that you have the ability to leave.
You have to know when enough is enough regardless of not having outside examples,support systems,counseling,friends and family. Some people never get there bc they're paralyzed by fear of being homeless and penniless. After having my pregnant body slammed by a door so hard it left a doorknob shaped bruise on my belly I decided being homeless didn't look so bad.


----------



## Zanne

survivorwife said:


> And yet here we are. On an internet forum. Gaining a glimpse of others who actually may have a somewhat "normal" life now after dealing with their own personal crisis similar to the topic at hand and saying that it can be done.
> 
> While there may be countless others who have never visited this particular site for a variety of reasons, once here most of the members here do offer valuable (and free) advice based on personal experience.


Yes, very true. But I am saying from _personal experience_ that a light bulb does not just go off in your head. And yes, sometimes you need stop and listen/read and actually let the words of others sink in... let the pattern of your thoughts change. People do not change very easily. Especially the older you get. IMO.

There are many helpful people on this forum. But some have little to no patience.


----------



## Hope1964

Zanne said:


> Is that a subtle hint?


Nooooo........ :scratchhead:


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Zanne said:


> Yes, very true. But I am saying from _personal experience_ *that a light bulb does not just go off in your head.* And yes, sometimes you need stop and listen/read and actually let the words of others sink in... let the pattern of your thoughts change. People do not change very easily. Especially the older you get. IMO.
> 
> There are many helpful people on this forum. But some have little to no patience.


Not true! Many times that is EXACTLY what happens! Happened to me! I can remember that CLICK very very clearly! THAT was the moment that I knew I was done and everything moved forward from there.


----------



## Zanne

ScarletBegonias said:


> It comes from within.Knowing inside your heart that you're unhappy and either it changes or you die that way.
> 
> I didn't have internet support,family,or friends when I dug my way out of a terrible series of situations. It was either change the situation or someday end up dead.
> 
> The turning point was being 19,unemployed,8 months pregnant and sitting in the ER at 2am.I was waiting to be taken to the psych dept after being mentally abused so badly I thought I was losing my mind and wanted to kill myself and my baby.
> 
> I didn't make it to the psych dept that night.I got up and walked out.I left shortly after that and I honestly don't even know how I made it work...it's mostly a blur of things I block out now. Point is,no one can tell you that you have the ability to leave.
> You have to know when enough is enough regardless of not having outside examples,support systems,counseling,friends and family. Some people never get there bc they're paralyzed by fear of being homeless and penniless. After having my pregnant body slammed by a door so hard it left a doorknob shaped bruise on my belly I decided being homeless didn't look so bad.


Respectfully, you probably put up with a lot of **** before the bruised belly and didn't leave, for whatever reasons. I agree, survival kicks in for most people. But I do believe some people give up on themselves and on life. I'm talking about severe abuse situations here.

When it's mostly normal at home and there are scattered incidents, it is less clear. You take your chances. Do you blow up your kids lives? Sleep on somebody else's couch or worse, at a shelter? Or do you continue on as a normal average family in suburbia. After all, all families have their little secrets, right?


----------



## ScarletBegonias

wanted to add,I went back to that situation after being evicted...couldn't exactly live in my car again now that I had an infant. I ended up doing a lot of shady things to get back out..I stayed gone the second time.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Zanne said:


> Respectfully, you probably put up with a lot of **** before the bruised belly and didn't leave, for whatever reasons. I agree, survival kicks in for most people. But I do believe some people give up on themselves and on life. I'm talking about severe abuse situations here.
> 
> When it's mostly normal at home and there are scattered incidents, it is less clear. You take your chances. Do you blow up your kids lives? Sleep on somebody else's couch or worse, a shelter? Or do you continue on as a normal average family in suburbia. After all, all families have their little secrets, right?


Severe abuse situations...ah I understand. You're right,my situation wasn't severe at all.

ETA I can't get upset at your post,you have no idea what I went through or how deeply I had given up on every thing. You asked where the gumption comes from and I answered as simply as I could using one example from my life when I was beaten down to the point of wanting to be dead.

lol ETA... When I say "you have no idea" I'm not saying that in a b*tchy hateful way. I'm saying it bc no one here really knows what anyone has truly been through so one example isn't going to be nearly enough to paint a clear picture. Sorry for not being clear,don't want you thinking I'm being attitudey judy on you!


----------



## Zanne

Hope1964 said:


> Nooooo........ :scratchhead:


Okay, sorry about that!


----------



## Zanne

3Xnocharm said:


> Not true! Many times that is EXACTLY what happens! Happened to me! I can remember that CLICK very very clearly! THAT was the moment that I knew I was done and everything moved forward from there.


Yeah, me too. But it didn't happen after the first person told me I should leave my husband because he was being abusive. Or the second or third person. Or the first month I read on TAM... you get the picture.

My point.... every person has their breaking point, as has been mentioned earlier in this discussion.

Also, I think it's worth repeating what Elegirl said about feeling paralyzed with fear. That can slow you down.


----------



## survivorwife

Zanne said:


> Yes, very true. But I am saying from _personal experience_ *that a light bulb does not just go off in your head.* And yes, sometimes you need stop and listen/read and actually let the words of others sink in... let the pattern of your thoughts change. People do not change very easily. Especially the older you get. IMO.
> 
> There are many helpful people on this forum. But some have little to no patience.


And I'm suggesting that, at some point in time, now or later, that "light bulb" will go off in your head. Something happens. All of what you have read will flow through your brain as very real suggestions to contemplate, and suddenly something "clicks" and you find yourself motivated to take some action, small or large, to make your situation better. All you need do is trust yourself. Once that happens, you will gain confidence to continue.

I got out of a marriage of almost 30 years. I'm no "kid"...lol And yet I took steps toward that goal of being financial independent and free. The "light bulb" moment for me was when I discovered my controlling husband decided to cheat on me and was not remorseful. It took 6 months to get to where I could leave; all planned carefully and without tipping my hand. 

I am doing great now. Divorced. Liberated. Free. I have no special powers, no rich relatives or friends, and took no handouts.

Point is, I can attest to the fact that age itself has no bearing on the results and I'm feeling great and try to encourage others that if they want to leave, they can. Sometimes the advise can be a bit creative, but if it works (as it did in my case) the results are well worth the effort.


----------



## Jellybeans

Zanne said:


> Jellybeans....sigh. You are assuming that most people have had the opportunity to have counseling or support or have read on internet forums.


I am not assuming that at all nor did I post that. 



Zanne said:


> If you haven't had a glimpse at alternatives or what a "normal" life looks like, *where would you get the gumption to leave?* *Especially if you have people in your life telling you that you can't do it*?


:scratchhead:

Just because someone tells someone else they cannot do something (like leave a bad relationship) does not mean they can't do it. In fact, I think that is a really poor reason for someone NOT making a plan to do something. "So and so told me I can't ever drive a car so I am never going to do it."


----------



## ScarletBegonias

survivorwife said:


> And I'm suggesting that, at some point in time, now or later, that "light bulb" will go off in your head. Something happens. All of what you have read will flow through your brain as very real suggestions to contemplate, and suddenly something "clicks" and you find yourself motivated to take some action, small or large, to make your situation better. All you need do is trust yourself. Once that happens, you will gain confidence to continue.
> 
> I got out of a marriage of almost 30 years. I'm no "kid"...lol And yet I took steps toward that goal of being financial independent and free. The "light bulb" moment for me was when I discovered my controlling husband decided to cheat on me and was not remorseful. It took 6 months to get to where I could leave; all planned carefully and without tipping my hand.
> 
> I am doing great now. Divorced. Liberated. Free. I have no special powers, no rich relatives or friends, and took no handouts.
> 
> Point is, I can attest to the fact that age itself has no bearing on the results and I'm feeling great and try to encourage others that if they want to leave, they can. Sometimes the advise can be a bit creative, but if it works (as it did in my case) the results are well worth the effort.


I think this is the point of the thread. It wasn't about shaming women who don't leave or holding those who did leave at a higher regard or whatever. It isn't about comparing one situation to another and determining which person had it worse,etc.

It's women telling other women they have options even when it feels like they don't. There's no reason to stay in an awful situation.


----------



## Zanne

ScarletBegonias said:


> Severe abuse situations...ah I understand. You're right,my situation wasn't severe at all.


Oh my goodness, no! I think your story is exactly the type of abusive situation where people wonder what stops a person from leaving. You explained it well. And now you inspire others.


----------



## Hope1964

What I do not understand is women who stay even after that light bulb HAS gone off. Not only stay, but make NO plans to try and get out. They SAY that they know they should leave, that their husband will never change, that they are hurting their kids, that they are miserable, etc etc etc. They make post after post about their husband yelling at them, belittling them, setting ridiculous rules for them, controlling them, and person after person tells them they need to see an attorney, yet they completely ignore everyone who tells them that the years of misery should end, and if one person who doesn't know their history posts that they should go to counseling or try to 'understand' their husband, they latch onto THAT. Then two weeks later we get another post asking us all for opinions on how they handled yet ANOTHER idiotic situation with their husband being a complete and total a$$.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Zanne said:


> Yes, very true. But I am saying from _personal experience_ that a light bulb does not just go off in your head. A





Zanne said:


> Yeah, me too. But it didn't happen after the first person told me I should leave my husband because he was being abusive. Or the second or third person. Or the first month I read on TAM... you get the picture.
> 
> My point.... every person has their breaking point, as has been mentioned earlier in this discussion.


So which is it?


----------



## Jellybeans

3Xnocharm said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I was friends with someone like the lady you describe, JB, and after a while, you just cant take the complaining any more because thats all it is. All you can do is roll your eyes, and either change the subject, or remove yourself. I hate to be so cold, but if all you do is gripe and never change things, then you need to shut up about it, stop crying wolf.


Oh, let me tell you. Nobody wants to listen to it. At all. Her own siblings stop her in her tracks as soon as she starts going on about how crappy he is, how she hates him, how she is going to leave him, how she this, how she that, how (on and on and on) for years now. Has never actually made a plan to DO anything.

So it's kind of like dating: a man tells you one thing but he does another. So he can talk until he's blue in the face about how much he likes you and yada yada and simply not make a plan to see you, or do anything to make a plan to see you when you live in close quarters. 
Sweet talk is nice but

Actions, baby. That is what it comes down to.


----------



## Jellybeans

Hope1964 said:


> What I do not understand is women who stay even after that light bulb HAS gone off. Not only stay, but make NO plans to try and get out.


Exactly.

In these cases, they have made a decision over and over and over and over and over (ad nauseam) to stay and do nothing to change their situation.

Also, some have the support AND means to leave and still stay. Some do not have either and LEAVE.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Hope1964 said:


> What I do not understand is women who stay even after that light bulb HAS gone off. Not only stay, but make NO plans to try and get out. They SAY that they know they should leave, that their husband will never change, that they are hurting their kids, that they are miserable, etc etc etc. They make post after post about their husband yelling at them, belittling them, setting ridiculous rules for them, controlling them, and person after person tells them they need to see an attorney, yet they completely ignore everyone who tells them that the years of misery should end, and if one person who doesn't know their history posts that they should go to counseling or try to 'understand' their husband, they latch onto THAT. Then two weeks later we get another post asking us all for opinions on how they handled yet ANOTHER idiotic situation with their husband being a complete and total a$$.


I think I stayed as long as I did bc I had already been at rock bottom when I got pregnant. At least w/him I had a roof over my head and wasn't starving or having to do questionable things to get by. 

The other day I typed a comment with more detail and admitted I am harsh toward ladies who continue staying through horrible moment after horrible moment. I've thought about it for a bit and realized it's bc I wish someone had cared enough to be harsh on me. I wish someone had said "You deserve more.Get the f**k away from this whatever it takes.If you don't,you're a friggin idiot." I didn't know I deserved better at the time.


----------



## Zanne

Jellybeans said:


> I am not assuming that at all nor did I post that.
> 
> 
> 
> :scratchhead:
> 
> Just because someone tells someone else they cannot do something (like leave a bad relationship) does not mean they can't do it. In fact, I think that is a really poor reason for someone NOT making a plan to do something. "So and so told me I can't ever drive a car so I am never going to do it."


Okay, I am assuming most people here are aware of basic psychology. In my brief time at IC, I learned about the power of my mind and how I could change my thinking. I could be less negative about myself and feel like I had some worth. Now, how come I was 46 years old and didn't know that? Why? Because nobody told me! What about people who are more isolated and will never make it to therapy? That was my point.

The reason why you can tell yourself something positive and you will see change in your thinking is because our minds do not care if the affirmation is coming from ourselves or another person. So if someone is telling you negative things, your mind will believe it as well!

We can't know when someone will be positively influenced, if ever, in their life. They may never know a different path in life exists for them until another person tells them.


----------



## survivorwife

ScarletBegonias said:


> I think I stayed as long as I did bc I had already been at rock bottom when I got pregnant. At least w/him I had a roof over my head and wasn't starving or having to do questionable things to get by.
> 
> The other day I typed a comment with more detail and admitted I am harsh toward ladies who continue staying through horrible moment after horrible moment. I've thought about it for a bit and realized it's bc *I wish someone had cared enough to be harsh on me. I wish someone had said "You deserve more.Get the f**k away from this whatever it takes.If you don't,you're a friggin idiot." I didn't know I deserved better at the time*.


:iagree:

I would like to think that all of us, with our own personal stories, know exactly what you are saying here. We sometimes relive our own pain to help others. To make them see. It's not about being mean, although sometimes it may look that way. It's about a "wake up call from the been there - done that department"


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Hope1964 said:


> What I do not understand is women who stay even after that light bulb HAS gone off. Not only stay, but make NO plans to try and get out. They SAY that they know they should leave, that their husband will never change, that they are hurting their kids, that they are miserable, etc etc etc. They make post after post about their husband yelling at them, belittling them, setting ridiculous rules for them, controlling them, and person after person tells them they need to see an attorney, yet they completely ignore everyone who tells them that the years of misery should end, and if one person who doesn't know their history posts that they should go to counseling or try to 'understand' their husband, they latch onto THAT. Then two weeks later we get another post asking us all for opinions on how they handled yet ANOTHER idiotic situation with their husband being a complete and total a$$.


THIS!! This is what makes me insane! I had to block a member here who keeps doing this, because she was causing me to have a physical reaction to her posts out of frustration at her lack of respect for herself and her child! This is an educated woman with more than enough means to get herself and her child out of a very dysfunctional situation, and she just....WONT!  There is another one that is bordering on getting ignored as well. Both of these women's kids are being DIRECTLY affected by the H's behavior. WHERE is the motherly instinct?? Why is being able to say you are married more important than the well being of your child??

I think I care too much. When I give advice, it comes from personal experience and from my HEART. I grew up watching my dad mistreat my mom, always wondering why the HELL she put up with that. She finally hit that breaking point and she divorced him. To this day I resent the hell out of him for treating my mother that way, and I swore I would not put up with that kind of crap from a man. And I havent. I tried to make things work in both marriages that I ended, but luckily not for 20 years!


----------



## Jellybeans

Zanne said:


> Why? Because nobody told me! What about people who are more isolated and will never make it to therapy? That was my point.
> 
> The reason why you can tell yourself something positive and you will see change in your thinking is because our minds do not care if the affirmation is coming from ourselves or another person. So if someone is telling you negative things, your mind will believe it as well!
> 
> We can't know when someone will be positively influenced, if ever, in their life. They may never know a different path in life exists for them until another person tells them.


And you can tell someone to leave until you are blue in the face and until they make a choice to actually get out of a bad relationship and make a plan and see it through, then that person isn't going to do anything.

Many people do not use internet forums. Many do not go to IC. Many do not have a support systems or the "means" and yet they still find a way to leave. Why? Because they want to and choose to leave. 

As far as someone believing negatives things-sure, some of that may stem from insecurity--but surely they have a choice in the matter//and can make a decision to either stay put or leave. That is what all of this comes down to.

Do you want to stay or go? Oh you want to go?

Then start making a plan for it.

on't blame it on that someone gave you negative self-talk. Or that someone said you can't leave. You are accountable for your actions.


----------



## Jellybeans

3Xnocharm said:


> THIS!! This is what makes me insane! I had to block a member here who keeps doing this, because she was causing me to have a physical reaction to her posts out of frustration at her lack of respect for herself and her child! This is an educated woman with more than enough means to get herself and her child out of a very dysfunctional situation, and she just....WONT!  There is another one that is bordering on getting ignored as well. Both of these women's kids are being DIRECTLY affected by the H's behavior. WHERE is the motherly instinct?? Why is being able to say you are married more important than the well being of your child??!


:iagree:


----------



## Zanne

3Xnocharm said:


> So which is it?


"The turning point"

To clarify, a light bulb doesn't _immediately_ go off in someone's head when another person gives you constructive advice. It may even seem impossible or irrelevant to the situation. I think we have established that now.

For me, it took many factors, more incidents from my husband, more people giving me advice, reading suggested links, etc. to say, "I'm done." And now moving beyond that point is my new challenge, which may or may not please people at the pace I am going.


----------



## Cosmos

Zanne said:


> Jellybeans....sigh. You are assuming that most people have had the opportunity to have counseling or support or have read on internet forums. If you haven't had a glimpse at alternatives or what a "normal" life looks like, where would you get the gumption to leave? Especially if you have people in your life telling you that you can't do it?


The OP is talking _specifically_ about women who have taken the initiative to come to an internet forum for advice and support.


----------



## bobbieb65

First I must give props to RACER on his view and the "prison" article, it was spot on for me. I know it must seem such an alien why of thinking or living for many, but for some, it what we have.

Now, to the OP and comments...every situation is unique and must be handled as such. With most of these toxic relationships and marriages come with a degree of depression and/or mental illness. This can be on one side or in our case, both of us. 

My story in short...parents divorced, mother was emotionally abusive/absent and physically abusive, father was emotionally disconnected but physically abusive. My older brother and myself went with our father (the lesser of the two evils), while the younger two sibling went with mom. My younger brother, the youngest child, was all but ignored by his father and mom was too busy with her "only" child (my younger sister). A week after my little brother turned 18, he took his own life...he never felt loved or wanted, he never felt any value as a person thanks to our parents.

Years later I meet my future husband...he knows the whole story and even comes from similar background when it comes to inadequate parenting. A little over a year in I realize somethings a bit off with him and set the wheels in motions to break up when I find out I was pregnant. My husband turned out to be a chronic liar, a serial cheater and an alcoholic...on varying levels and degrees. I thought about leaving several times, sometimes I had/could find the means and other times I could not. But I stayed, I stayed out of fear of our child feeling rejected by his father if we had divorced...I could not risk it. I stayed because that was the lesser evil and I was willing to sacrifice myself for my only child. 

Sometimes when someone says "I don't have the means to leave", there's much more to it then just a job and money.


----------



## TikiKeen

bobbie points out something that has been barely mentioned: the lifetime cycle of abuse. I mean the full context of victims un-learning nearly everything they were taught by example growing up.

My marriage is similar: both of us grew up in abuse and are relearning how to not think and act in similar ways (PA/verbal abuse/emotional abuse/'victim think' which leads to defensiveness). Add in the PTSD accrued via that childhood plus a little more trauma, and leaving is a daunting task. hel!, even assessing the situation has been daunting for me. Another complicating factor is whether the 'support system' itself is toxic: families and religions aren't always stable, reliable or safe bets for resources.

This thread has been a horrendous read, to see women calling others' decisions 'stupid', then rationalizing it away as a mere generalization...to see "but I really meant this specific situation" when those details were adeptly left out earlier in the discussion...just wow. A few of these posters might need lessons in Trauma Theory (it's a real discipline.)


----------



## Zanne

Jellybeans said:


> on't blame it on that someone gave you negative self-talk. Or that someone said you can't leave. You are accountable for your actions.


Jellybeans, I disagree. If you've been posting here for years and ignoring advice, as OP stated, different story. But if you're new here, maybe "You are accountable for your actions" is a new concept.

The other side to this is some people are complainers and they like the attention.

In the case of really bad situations, like Scarlet's, I believe there is the stigma of being abused and also shame in being homeless and finding yourself in that situation, etc., which should also be considered.


----------



## Cosmos

Zanne said:


> In the case of really bad situations, like Scarlet's, I believe there is the stigma of being abused and also shame in being homeless and finding yourself in that situation, etc., which should also be considered.


And those of us who have been there are here to empower other women into realizing that the stigma and shame of having been abused and finding themselves homeless is not theirs to bear. It is often those thoughts that keep a victim stuck, and we're here to help them find the necessary resources to free themselves, erect healthy boundaries and rebuild their lives.

Where there's a will there's usually a way...


----------



## Zanne

Cosmos said:


> The OP is talking _specifically_ about women who have taken the initiative to come to an internet forum for advice and support.


Yes, I get that. I am trying to point out that there are many layers to this and many years of a person thinking a certain way isn't going to change overnight.

I've been here for a year and a half and I still have people complain that I'm not listening to advice. So that means either: a) I'm a troll who likes to stir up trouble; b) a hopeless case; c) I take longer than other people to make changes in my life.

Fortunately, I have read/listened to enough advice and support that I do not really give a fluff about what people think of me. In fact, I am "me" and I like myself enough to keep improving at my own pace. And anyone who doesn't agree can get off the crazy train, including my friends and family.


----------



## Jellybeans

Zanne said:


> But if you're new here, maybe "You are accountable for your actions" is a new concept.


New or old, people are accountable for their actions. 

Nobody "makes" anyone stay in a bad relationship.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Zanne said:


> Yes, I get that. I am trying to point out that there are many layers to this and many years of a person thinking a certain way isn't going to change overnight.
> 
> I've been here for a year and a half and I still have people complain that I'm not listening to advice. So that means either: a) I'm a troll who likes to stir up trouble; b) a hopeless case; c) I take longer than other people to make changes in my life.


d) The advice you are getting is either bad or contradictory and adds a layer of confusion rather than clarity.

That is one option that people who GIVE advice don't get. Just because you gave it, doesn't make it good.


----------



## Zanne

Jellybeans said:


> New or old, people are accountable for their actions.
> 
> Nobody "makes" anyone stay in a bad relationship.


Believe it, or not. But people need to be told that.


----------



## Cosmos

Zanne said:


> Yes, I get that. I am trying to point out that there are many layers to this and many years of a person thinking a certain way isn't going to change overnight.
> 
> I've been here for a year and a half and I still have people complain that I'm not listening to advice. So that means either: a) I'm a troll who likes to stir up trouble; b) a hopeless case; c) I take longer than other people to make changes in my life.
> 
> Fortunately, I have read/listened to enough advice and support that I do not really give a fluff about what people think of me. In fact, I am "me" and I like myself enough to keep improving at my own pace. And anyone who doesn't agree can get off the crazy train, including my friends and family.


If someone asks me for advice I usually give it, but it's up to them what they do with it.

People will often only make the necessary changes in their lives when it's too uncomfortable for them to do otherwise.


----------



## Cosmos

TikiKeen said:


> bobbie points out something that has been barely mentioned: the lifetime cycle of abuse. I mean the full context of victims un-learning nearly everything they were taught by example growing up.


To a large extent, I shrugged off the negative example I'd been set before I was out of my teens. I was a deep thinker from an early age and rebelled against the way I saw my father treating my mother, and made a conscious decision to choose the men I associated with very carefully. Perhaps I was really fortunate in that my first boyfriend was a wonderful young man with happy, loving parents... I know he certainly helped me reshape some of my skewed thinking about men.

However, despite the fact that I had never been involved in an abusive relationship during my adult years, in late middle age I found myself in the clutches of one - big time!

Early conditioning isn't _necessarily_ going to predispose people to choosing abusive partners (although it can), but super-awareness isn't necessarily going to protect us from falling foul of one, either.


----------



## awake1

I was sort of in this situation. Last year I found out about FWWs cheating as I was closing a business, (meaning 0 income), during which I had 2 family deaths and more. 

Anyways, I made a plan and went to school. It was not easy but I did it, and i'll prob go back again soon for RN. 

So anyways, soon i'll have the capacity to see to my own needs. 

My intention is to leave and has been. It may take us varying amounts of times until we're able, but it's not just noise for all of us. (to be fair, I did leave a couple times, but always came back. It was very difficult living with my parents lol.) 

Also the lawyer I was seeing said "don't leave! not until you get divorce done."


----------



## committed4ever

TikiKeen said:


> This thread has been a horrendous read, to see women calling others' decisions 'stupid', then rationalizing it away as a mere generalization...to see "but I really meant this specific situation" when those details were adeptly left out earlier in the discussion...just wow. A few of these posters might need lessons in Trauma Theory (it's a real discipline.)


Thank you!!!!


----------



## 2galsmom

I think when you say you are bothered by someone in an abusive situation you are not only judging them but you are announcing you have a lack of empathy. Your sympathy is not needed, sympathy does more harm than good in the world but empathy is a rare commodity. It has two parts, the ability to feel and detect feelings in others, when someone says they do not have the means to leave, it is painful, it is fear and potential self-loathing. Can't feel that? 

If you are bothered, leave the abused alone and look to yourself and figure out what your issues are being bothered by people in bad situations. You may be in for some surprises yourself.

As for trauma, people who experience domestic violence and emotional abuse often present wit PTSD, who else does? VETERANS OF WAR! That is how bad it is, that is the extent of the trauma on the psyche. If you have not been to war, and you have not been belittled and gaslighted on a daily to hourly basis you don't understand and quite frankly save your being bothered by people who have been to WARLIKE environments. Your advice will not help them.

I did not understand until a year after I was officially divorced, that the crazy effort I was making to save my marriage resulted from trauma bonding so I don't expect anyone else to either.

If you are in an abusive situation and you are here posting you can't get out, you are on your way out! You have identified that you should get out and you are talking about it instead of hiding at home hoping things will get better.

Faith is needed to get out, faith in the unknown, faith you can survive on your own, faith you can leap over the obstacles in front of you now and all the potential obstacles your abuser will place before you in the future.

Guess what? When you leave, when the divorce is final, they STILL try to wreck your life and all people in abusive situations who are coming in the light UNDERSTAND this. It is not easy once you have let the disordered gain control and power, but with help of the light you can escape.


----------



## Phenix70

My POV of this thread is WHY?
Why would the OP post something like this & also why would the MODS allow it to stay up?
This thread was NOT created to offer support for women wanting to leave abusive relationships, this thread was ONLY to vent about how the OP is annoyed by other women's choices.
END OF STORY.
THAT is what bothers me, that someone actually thinks it's okay to post that what other women do in their lives annoys them & to openly complain about it.
Oh the irony is rich in this one. 
Where do you or anyone else get off thinking that YOUR life choices are any better than someone else's?
And then having the nerve to be defensive when called out on your actions?

I have no stake in this other than I refuse to sit by and let the horrible & judgmental things posted in this thread go unchallenged.
I have never been in an abusive relationship & my current situation has no barring on this discussion because 1) my relationship is not abusive 2) I'm not doing what the OP is so annoyed with...I don't complain all the time about my relationship. 3) if you need to know, then read my thread. 

Does the OP really understand the situation women in abusive relationships are in, from the actual physical danger, to suffering from the lack of self esteem?
So if these women are already dealing with the deck stacked against them, do you honestly think that this thread is in anyway going to make a difference to THEM?
Let's forget about any difference it makes to YOU, what about THEM?
A woman is struggling right now, she is searching for a place to come seek help getting out of her situation, she Googles, see this thread & comes to TAM to read.
After seeing the things posted here, do really think she's going to have an "A-Ha" moment & say "my God, she's right!"
No, most likely, she's going to feel even worse for knowing that other women, who are not in HER situation, who lack any empathy & would rather sit on an Internet board mocking & ridiculing women like her, than actually doing anything constructive.
See that's the thing, this thread is NOT constructive & offers no value, not even intrinsically.

BTW, I highly recommend doing research on the topic of women in abusive relationships and their struggle to get out. That way at the very least you would have more of an idea of what they really do go through. 

Here's an article that is interesting in that it discusses DV among wealthy women & their struggle to get out.
Domestic Violence Among the Wealthy Hides Behind â€˜Veil of Silenceâ€™ - The Daily Beast

And from the article:


> “The abuser will try to hurt you in the way it hurts most, by getting custody of the kids,” Langbein says. According to data from the American Judges’ Association, 70 percent of contested custody cases involving domestic violence eventually grant joint or sole custody to the abuser.


So you wrap your mind around that one, since kids kept getting brought up in this thread. 
If a woman finds out that 70% of the time the abuser is going to get either sole or joint custody, what decision do you think she is going to lean towards?
If she leaves & he gets sole custody, who protects the kids?
At least if she stays, she can do what she can to protect them, or so she may well think.


----------



## committed4ever

Phenix70 said:


> My POV of this thread is WHY?
> Why would the OP post something like this & also why would the MODS allow it to stay up?
> This thread was NOT created to offer support for women wanting to leave abusive relationships, this thread was ONLY to vent about how the OP is annoyed by other women's choices.
> END OF STORY.
> THAT is what bothers me, that someone actually thinks it's okay to post that what other women do in their lives annoys them & to openly complain about it.
> Oh the irony is rich in this one.
> Where do you or anyone else get off thinking that YOUR life choices are any better than someone else's?
> And then having the nerve to be defensive when called out on your actions?
> 
> I have no stake in this other than I refuse to sit by and let the horrible & judgmental things posted in this thread go unchallenged.
> I have never been in an abusive relationship & my current situation has no barring on this discussion because 1) my relationship is not abusive 2) I'm not doing what the OP is so annoyed with...I don't complain all the time about my relationship. 3) if you need to know, then read my thread.
> 
> Does the OP really understand the situation women in abusive relationships are in, from the actual physical danger, to suffering from the lack of self esteem?
> So if these women are already dealing with the deck stacked against, them, do you honestly think that this thread is in anyway going to make a difference to THEM?
> Let's forget about any difference it makes to YOU, what about THEM?
> A women is struggling right now, she is searching for a place to come seek help getting out of her situation, she Googles, see this thread & comes to TAM to read.
> After seeing the things posted here, do really think she's going to have an "A-Ha" moment & say "my God, she's right!"
> No, most likely, she's going to feel even worse for knowing that other women, who are not in HER situation, who lack any empathy & would rather sit on an Internet board mocking & ridiculing women like her, than actually doing anything constructive.
> See that's the thing, this thread is NOT constructive & offers no value, not even intrinsically.
> 
> BTW, I highly recommend doing research on the topic of women in abusive relationships and their struggle to get out. That way at the very least you would have more of an idea of what they really do go through.
> 
> Here's an article that is interesting in that it discusses DV among wealthy women & their struggle to get out.
> Domestic Violence Among the Wealthy Hides Behind ‘Veil of Silence’ - The Daily Beast
> 
> And from the article:


Amen, amen, amen, and amen again!

I have never been abused in any form or fashion, nor did I grow up with abuse. But 2gals, I can totally understand and empathize with you because I have a family member who went through it. Her abuser remained relentless even after a successful family intervention. There was one last raging incident when he left her for dead before his a$$ was thrown in jail for any length of time. She took that opportunity to move far away from family and friends, which broke her heart but she felt she had no choice. Way more to the story but this is the jist.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Some people need the kick in the pants approach to get them out of their comfort zone and change their life.

For example- When I went to the shelter they were supportive and caring but they expected no excuses. You spend 8 hours a day doing something productive (work, school or trying to get into either) and they would provide support, clothes, a phone number for call backs, etc. 
But there was no letting me just sit and feel sorry for myself. It was get your @ss going and change your life, right now, no excuses. You got yourself into this mess and you can get yourself out. 

That kind of support is what got me to where I needed to be. So many of us end up stuck in victim mode we need to be shaken and told to snap out of it. I can't see anything in this thread I would be offended by. 

The wanting to leave stage is like sitting on the edge of the cliff. You can stay there your whole life being too scared to move or you can jump. Some need a big push. Some don't want to try.


----------



## ladybird

Faithful Wife said:


> ladybird...I don't know your story and this is an honest question: what would you do if he died and left you nothing? How would you support yourself?


 I honestly have no idea what I would do if that happened. Id be pretty much screwed!


----------



## turnera

NobodySpecial said:


> d) The advice you are getting is either bad or contradictory and adds a layer of confusion rather than clarity.
> 
> That is one option that people who GIVE advice don't get. Just because you gave it, doesn't make it good.


The advice she's getting is because she IS CHEATING.


----------



## TikiKeen

Abused women are also more likely to cope via drugs and alcohol, too. That, in turn, lowers their chances of (a)testing clean while receiving help, then being cut off from said help, and (b)losing custody of their kids, should they have any.

To wit:
http://www.ncadv.org/files/SubstanceAbuse.pdf

I'm not saying this as a straw man, but to associate "poor behaviors" with causes and conditions. I'll see if I can dig around and find the stats of Stockholm-like responses of cheating; I remember my old DV counselor lumping "response cheating" in with drinking and drug use as "poor coping skills victims use in an attempt to have control over part of their lives." (It may take a phone call to her this week. I'm curious about the stats myself.)


----------



## Nikita2270

> I've been here for a year and a half and I still have people complain that I'm not listening to advice. So that means either: a) I'm a troll who likes to stir up trouble; b) a hopeless case; c) I take longer than other people to make changes in my life.
> 
> Fortunately, I have read/listened to enough advice and support that I do not really give a fluff about what people think of me. In fact, I am "me" and I like myself enough to keep improving at my own pace. And anyone who doesn't agree can get off the crazy train, including my friends and family.


You can make whatever choices you want to make in your life.

People evolve in their lives on their own timetable. Stop worrying about what other people think ...the person who needs to be proud of you, is you.

My beef is when other people make endless excuses for people making bad choices. They aren't VICTIMS.

Again, the definition of a victim is someone who is truly a casualty of circumstances. If you are choosing your circumstances, regardless of the reason, you are not a victim.

And by calling someone a victim, you are NOT being empathetic at all...in fact, quite the opposite. You're actually making it much worse by encouraging whining.

When someone is a victim, they cannot change their circumstances. You do not empower the person, you don't help them, you do nothing but put them in an even weaker position than before. And women do NOT need to be weaker...we need to be empowered to change our lives for the better. 

Women can do anything we put our minds to. We are amazing, strong creatures who are biologically built to love hard, to participate in a variety of intellectual and physically pursuits, and mostly to protect our offspring.

I'm into admiring women for their strengths...not coddling their weakness.


----------



## Jellybeans

Suuuuch an excellent post, Nikita.

I agree 110% :iagree:

There is empathy/showing compassion--and then there is enabling.


----------



## Jellybeans

Phenix70 said:


> My POV of this thread is WHY?
> Why would the OP post something like this & also why would the MODS allow it to stay up?
> This thread was NOT created to offer support for women wanting to leave abusive relationships, this thread was ONLY to vent about how the OP is annoyed by other women's choices.
> END OF STORY.
> THAT is what bothers me, that someone actually thinks it's okay to post that what other women do in their lives annoys them & to openly complain about it.
> Oh the irony is rich in this one.
> Where do you or anyone else get off thinking that YOUR life choices are any better than someone else's?
> And then having the nerve to be defensive when called out on your actions?


Well this is an OPEN forum and people DO post their feelings/opinions/thoughts on different subjects. I get that not everyone agrees but the entire point of the initial post was asking if other people feel that some women only claim to not being able to leave instead of actually making a plan to leave. 

And a lot of people do feel that way. And others don't. Which is fine.

I've seen a lot more offensive threads on TAM which no one has "complained" about before. I don't see any reason for the Mods to take this one down since it's really not inflammatory.

Your post comes across as really defensive and emotional/angry. My 2 cents.


----------



## Jellybeans

Nikita2270 said:


> You can make whatever choices you want to make in your life.
> 
> My beef is when other people make endless excuses for people making bad choices. They aren't VICTIMS.
> 
> Again, the definition of a victim is someone who is truly a casualty of circumstances. If you are choosing your circumstances, regardless of the reason, you are not a victim.
> 
> When someone is a victim, they cannot change their circumstances.


This is everything. :smthumbup:


----------



## Phenix70

Jellybeans said:


> Well this is an OPEN forum and people DO post their feelings/opinions/thoughts on different subjects. I get that not everyone agrees but the entire point of the initial post was asking if other people feel that some women only claim to not being able to leave instead of actually making a plan to leave.
> 
> And a lot of people do feel that way. And others don't. Which is fine.
> 
> I've seen a lot more offensive threads on TAM which no one has "complained" about before. I don't see any reason for the Mods to take this one down since it's really not inflammatory.
> 
> Your post comes across as really defensive and emotional/angry. My 2 cents.


Of course my post is going to seem that way to some people, people who don't understand why this thread is offensive in the first place. 

Instead of singling out one specific group of people by the OP, the better thread would have been, "Why I'm Annoyed When People Stay in Their Relationships Even Though..."
Then no particular group is singled out, because the exact things the OP was complaining about can be easily applied across the spectrum of relationships.
People who stay with cheating spouses, complain their spouses won't stop cheating & still they won't leave.
People who stay in sexless marriages for years & instead of leaving they complain they aren't getting any. 
People who fight about money, but stay anyway, while complaining their spouses are putting them in the poorhouse. 
People with toxic in-laws, married to a spouse who won't intervene & all they do is post about their issues but won't do anything about it. 
See the pattern here?
People from all walks of life complain about their relationships but yet they stay.
To single out women who stay in abusive relationships is purposely shaming them & their choices, when they are doing the EXACT same thing other people are doing who aren't even in an abusive relationship.

Want to post a thread to complain about other people complaining, have at it, but to single out ONLY one group of people who are staying while complaining is what is petty. 
Because if you only feel annoyed about women in abusive relationships not leaving, that says more about YOU than it does about THEM.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Phenix, here is Hope's original post so that you can reread it, she did not start the thread taking aim at abuse victims:



Hope1964 said:


> I see people saying this all the time here on TAM. Mostly women. The odd guy I guess, but pretty much all women.
> 
> *I do not get this. I see women post about living in horrible conditions - their husband verbally abusing them daily, cheating on them and flaunting it, refusing to allow them their own money, and much worse.*
> 
> Is saying "I don't have the means to leave" the same thing as saying "I'm a victim of abuse and I need help to leave"? Are there really this many women out there who have what amounts to battered person syndrome? I really hope not. But I don't like the alternative either - that too many women today are no more independent than they were 150 years ago and that they depend on a MAN to provide them with the necessities of life. *That they're simply unable to fathom the idea of being on their own and providing for themselves, to the point that they live in abject misery for years. Or that they're just too lazy to do it, or too uneducated.
> *
> *I do not know the answer, but I do know that it really bothers me when someone posts on here for YEARS about their horrible husband, yet just continues to take it and never does anything to change it. Hell, it bothers me when someone just posts on here for a couple of DAYS about the way their husband has treated them for years or decades.* Does it bother you?



In fact, it was directed at the posters that you pointed out HERE in your post. In no way, shape or form did she single out those in abusive situations.




Phenix70 said:


> Of course my post is going to seem that way to some people, people who don't understand why this thread is offensive in the first place.
> 
> Instead of singling out one specific group of people by the OP, the better thread would have been, "Why I'm Annoyed When People Stay in Their Relationships Even Though..."
> Then no particular group is singled out, because the exact things the OP was complaining about can be easily applied across the spectrum of relationships.*
> People who stay with cheating spouses, complain their spouses won't stop cheating & still they won't leave.
> People who stay in sexless marriages for years & instead of leaving they complain they aren't getting any.
> People who fight about money, but stay anyway, while complaining their spouses are putting them in the poorhouse.
> People with toxic in-laws, married to a spouse who won't intervene & all they do is post about their issues but won't do anything about it. *
> See the pattern here?
> People from all walks of life complain about their relationships but yet they stay.
> To single out women who stay in abusive relationships is purposely shaming them & their choices, when they are doing the EXACT same thing other people are doing who aren't even in an abusive relationship.
> 
> Want to post a thread to complain about other people complaining, have at it, but to single out ONLY one group of people who are staying while complaining is what is petty.
> Because if you only feel annoyed about women in abusive relationships not leaving, that says more about YOU than it does about THEM.


BTW, if a thread offends you, you can always step away from it. Thats what I do, otherwise I get too worked up.


----------



## Phenix70

3xnocharm,

I see you conveniently did not highlight this part of the OP.


> s saying "I don't have the means to leave" the same thing as saying "I'm a victim of abuse and I need help to leave"? Are there really this many women out there who have what amounts to battered person syndrome? I really hope not.


Then she goes on to call those women lazy & uneducated.
If you don't find that offensive, then there is no need to further this conversation. 
Women in abusive relationships who do not leave are not all lazy or uneducated.
I even posted a link to prove otherwise.
With all of the over generalizations already posted here on TAM about women, why add to it?

BTW, I take it that you have missed the irony of posting a thread complaining about other people complaining. 

And thanks, but I'll post what I want where I want. 
It's an open forum and unless the MODS say otherwise, I'll just keep on posting.
After all, someone has to stand up for the underdog & I've always been a champion of the underdog.
I also hate gender bias, no matter which gender it's directed towards.
It shows a short sighted vision.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

I'm not understanding why you refuse to see she's just speculating. Even in the blurb you just quoted...she's asking a question not accusing. She's trying to figure out which cases are people who just refuse to leave bc of material reasons or if there really are that many people out there with battered person syndrome. 

It seems like you're looking for a fight that isn't there.


----------



## Jellybeans

Phenix70 said:


> Instead of singling out one specific group of people by the OP, the better thread would have been, "Why I'm Annoyed When People Stay in Their Relationships Even Though..."


Well, you can't control how other people choose to write their posts. As for "singling out a specific group"--that is the entire point of the thread--to discuss a particular group of people. It's the thread topic, just like if it were about "waywards" or "betrayed spouses" or "parents" or "swingers"--all specific groups which are featured over and over again on TAM.



Phenix70 said:


> Want to post a thread to complain about other people complaining, have at it, but to single out ONLY one group of people who are staying while complaining is what is petty.
> Because if you only feel annoyed about women in abusive relationships not leaving, that says more about YOU than it does about THEM.


Her original post was not about specifically abuse. That was inferred in the many posts made by others.



Phenix70 said:


> Then she goes on to call those women lazy & uneducated.


No, she didn't. She was saying that some women say this about themselves in their posts and say it is one of the reason they "cannot" leave. Which is true. We have seen that over and over again on TAM:

I want to leave him but:
_"I don't have a job"
"I don't have my own income"
"I am not educated"
"I do not have a trade"
"I can't get a job"
"No one would hire me"
"I am afraid of starting over"
"I am too old to leave"
_



Phenix70 said:


> BTW, I take it that you have missed the irony of posting a thread complaining about other people complaining.


But the bigger irony is that you're complaining about the "complainers" who "complain." 





Phenix70 said:


> It's an open forum and unless the MODS say otherwise, I'll just keep on posting.
> After all, someone has to stand up for the underdog & I've always been a champion of the underdog.
> I also hate gender bias, no matter which gender it's directed towards.
> It shows a short sighted vision.


Exactly. It is an open forum . Where all opinions are welcome and up for discussion. And yet you were saying that perhaps this thread should be shut down because you didn't agree with it. Which is in itself a "short-sighted vision" as you say. 

We can all agree to disagree.

Honestly, Phenix, it sounds like you are projecting.


----------



## Deejo

Deeply personal, and complex matrix of issues.

I think the pathology is very straightforward, and human.

The fear and pain of remaining in such circumstances MUST outweigh the fear and pain of choosing a completely unknown set of circumstances. And that is a very difficult choice for those in the the thick of things, whereas it looks like a no-brainer to those who are not.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Nikita2270 said:


> You can make whatever choices you want to make in your life.
> 
> People evolve in their lives on their own timetable. Stop worrying about what other people think ...the person who needs to be proud of you, is you.
> 
> My beef is when other people make endless excuses for people making bad choices. They aren't VICTIMS.
> 
> Again, the definition of a victim is someone who is truly a casualty of circumstances. If you are choosing your circumstances, regardless of the reason, you are not a victim.


I disagree pretty enthusiastically. 

"a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action."

What you are suggesting is as near to victim blaming as I have ever seen in real life. When a person causes harm to another, the recipient is the victim. Period.

What that person does with that situation is something else entirely.


----------



## TikiKeen

Nikita, as a feminist, I'm sure you're familiar with this definition of domestic abuse. It comes from mass.gov, if you'd like to find the whole page:
"Domestic violence is defined as a pattern of coercive and controlling behaviors and tactics used by one person over another to gain power and control. This may include verbal abuse, financial abuse, emotional, sexual, and physical abuse." (Note that MA was one of the first states to study DV, its forms and impacts across families and the legal system, and that was a long-term study.)

Let's look at some more stuff about abuse (and coercion):
This, with links on the left menu about safety plans

Here is what the American Bar Association has to say about it

From feminist.com

From TEDtalks, the author of "Crazy Love". Pay special attention beginning at 12:48

Finally, here is Evan Stark's work about Coersive Control. The first paragraph should address any concerns about feminism's role in domestic violence. If you'd like a list of feminist theory primers which also address things like abuse & intersectionality, I'll be glad to provide those to you. There's a boatload of research out there contradicting your opinion that these women just need to get it together, suck it up and stop complaining while they leave.

Again, you're perfectly entitled to your opinions. You're also entitled to hear from an experiential, educational and law enforcement/legal practitioner standpoint how your opinions are not only "not feminism", but serve to dis-empower victims from leaving. The links I provided do just that.


----------



## Jellybeans

This thread was not started about "domestic abuse" but it seems to have taken a turn for that because people keep bringing it up.

With that said, I don't think it is dis-empowering at all to tell a woman to leave the bad relationship she says she wants out of.


----------



## TikiKeen

Encouraging a victim to leave is not the same thing as questioning why s/he stays. The latter _is_ disempowering. It reinforces worthlessness.



> I do not get this. I see women post about living in horrible conditions - their husband verbally abusing them daily, cheating on them and flaunting it, refusing to allow them their own money, and much worse.
> 
> Is saying "I don't have the means to leave" the same thing as saying "I'm a victim of abuse and I need help to leave"? Are there really this many women out there who have what amounts to battered person syndrome? I really hope not. But I don't like the alternative either - that too many women today are no more independent than they were 150 years ago and that they depend on a MAN to provide them with the necessities of life. That they're simply unable to fathom the idea of being on their own and providing for themselves, to the point that they live in abject misery for years. Or that they're just too lazy to do it, or too uneducated.
> 
> I do not know the answer, but I do know that it really bothers me when someone posts on here for YEARS about their horrible husband, yet just continues to take it and never does anything to change it. Hell, it bothers me when someone just posts on here for a couple of DAYS about the way their husband has treated them for years or decades. Does it bother you?


The thing is, Hope did say that in the OP. "Horrible conditions" were defined as abuse. Alternative #1 was given as battered person syndrome. Alternative #2 was a mix of depending upon a man, being "unable to fathom the idea of being on their own and providing for themselves" and possibly that they're too lazy or uneducated to leave. She questioned the number of people who "really" have BPS, then proceeded to ponder the causes of why they wouldn't leave. At no point in that pondering was "because abusers continue abusing, thus preventing or coercing them from leaving" an option. 

Then other members added a few things like "stupid", "they can just get help and leave" and excluded (again) abusers' coercion. In fact, more than 6 posts centered on why victims "choose" abusers in the first place, ignoring abusers' predatory, manipulative and grooming behavior.


----------



## survivorwife

TikiKeen said:


> Encouraging a victim to leave is not the same thing as questioning why s/he stays. The latter _is_ disempowering. It reinforces worthlessness.


How so? The question itself, "why do you stay" is neither empowering or disempowering. It is a question posed in order to understand the person's state of mind in order to offer specific advise based on their particular set of circumstances. People come here for advise. We deliver (or try to).

"Worthlessness" would be reading a response and, based on their response, stating that there is no solution or resolution to their problem. Or placing no value on the person's input. In any exchange of opinions/ideas, there is bound to be disagreements among people, but it doesn't mean that the person offering their opinion/idea doesn't care about the questioner or the situation they find themselves in. 

There is a certain point in time when the questioner is looking for an "out" from a bad situation and the details help in order to find the best advise for their particular set of circumstances. None of which should be construed as if it were intended to make the questioner feel "worthless"


----------



## Jellybeans

All I am getting from that translates to me as: they don't have a choice in the matter at all. 

So I guess telling them to stay would be better? Because people in bad relationships have zero choice in the matter ever so they should just remain and do nothing to make a change. It essentially perpetuates the very thing Hope was talking about.


----------



## Jellybeans

survivorwife said:


> People come here for advise.


Some do not come for advice (though they may say they do). They come to vent and hope you agree with them so they can feel validated. The minute someone posts something they aren't cool with, they start getting defensive and saying others are not being helpful. And some even come back and keep posting the same thing over and over again. Like the definition of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Examples can be found in every single forum across all the boards of TAM.


----------



## survivorwife

Jellybeans said:


> This thread was not started about "domestic abuse" but it seems to have taken a turn for that because people keep bringing it up.
> 
> With that said, *I don't think it is dis-empowering at all to tell a woman to leave the bad relationship she says she wants out of.*


:iagree:

I would think it would have the opposite effective, that is to say the woman would feel the power and hope of having been heard and knowing that there are people out here willing to help with suggestions and advise. It's telling her that she is not alone, people do care, and here are ways to get out.

And yes, I agree with you about the way this thread is taking a turn. I have read many threads on here about SAHMs wanting to leave for other reasons; cheating spouse, he controls the money, etc. etc. and those women have already reached a decision about leaving. Their threads are for brainstorming ways to become financially independent of their spouse so that they can leave. Those sort of threads (and the women who write them) usually get a different set of questions/comments/advise than a "domestic abuse" thread.


----------



## Jellybeans

survivorwife said:


> And yes, I agree with you about the way this thread is taking a turn.


----------



## TikiKeen

At no point did OP say she was questioning for herself. On the ontrary, she continued to question why they stay.

All in all, "What can I do to help you make a decision" or "What can I do to help you plan to leave?" work far better than "Why are you still there?" It comes back to the earlier discussion focusing on helping victims see options and get out, then, when they're safely out look at why they stayed. Reinforcing worthlessness (a by-product of emotional abuse or of depression, both common in abuse victims) isn't helpful. 

Example: Imagine a woman had a crappy college same-sex roommate who stile her money, blamed her for "losing it" and then insisted on keeping her awake talking, chided her about making good grades, whom she dated, how she dressed and her worldviews. Woman goes to a friend who isn't at that college for advice on what to do. Friend says "just ride it out, it can't be that bad". Woman returns to apartment and roomie accuses her of sleeping with roomie's BF, then breaks her favorite vase by throwing it on floor. Woman goes to friend again, only to hear "What did you do to pi*s her off?" Feeling unsupported, she returns back to the apartment with no solutions or ideas. She goes to the safety of the library to look up apartments, and finds nothing available in her price range. Knowing her roommate is stealing from her, she resolves to bust the roomie's theivery. She consults her friend a third time and is told "It's all in your head. So-and-so seems so nice when we're over there!"

She applies for food stamps and is turned down because her proportion of rent and her PT job's income, on paper, place her out of the range designated as being able to receive benefits. She goes to IC at the school, and the T says "It sounds like a basic roomie disagreement. try confronting her gently about it."

She sets up a camera, busts roomie stealing, confronts roomie and gets slapped. She goes to friend who says "I don't see why you stay. You can just leave. I mean, she's not your BF!"

She fails three classes, is placed on academic suspension, and ultimately fails out of school. she has to break the lease, and that day, roomie breaks her arm because she's angry at being stuck with the bills. After finally being hurt again, she files a police report. Because she fought back and roomie has a scratch on her arm, both women receive charges of DV. She sits in jail because her friend and her family won't bail her out, because she should have known better than to stay with an as*hole roomie like that. She chose the roomie and should have done something stop it all, even though pre-move-in background checks showed roomie to have no record, awesome grades in high school, and she had a ton of friends, too.

Substitute "BF" for "roomie" and you have a fairly typical scenario.

Not once did friend ask "this sounds awful. Would it be okay if I helped you look for options on finding a new place to live?" Not once did the T key in on what was going on. Not once did neighbors call the police. Not once did family ask how things were going, until failing was the option. It's about not making assumptions. asking hard questions about the situation and offering tangible help (time and hands-on searching for help). It's about paying attention as a community, too.

I was cool with the conversation until OP came back to clarify that her intentions were not about caring, but about judging.


----------



## TikiKeen

Better yet, here's my story with my ex:
I went to a mom's forum I was on and was told no one could help.
I went to a T, and my ex chose the T. I never felt safe disclosing. Since he (ex) checked my mileage, he would have known if I went to the shelter/counseling center 20 miles away.
I went to our religious leaders, who reinforced that he was the man of the house and I didn't get to "override" his opinion.
I got in with a different T, who said that since there was no physical violence, we could "work on" me.
When he got violent the first time, I called a good friend, who asked me what I did to provoke him. She, in turn, called all my other friends and I was excluded from my support network for having stood up to my husband.
The second time, I called the cops. They arrived three hours later, after he had left the house, wrote a ticket which was mailed to him, didn't take photos of my bruises and told me to call if he came back. He was ordered to take "anger management" classes.

I left two years later after he raped me and refused to take me to get an abortion. That time, I left with three kids, no clothes and no paperwork, while he was at work. he found me at my parents' house and stalked me. Even my own parents asked me how I'd let it get that bad. I never heard "what can I do to help you leave?" I never even heard "you need to leave". I did hear "what did you do to cause this?" When I looked at all the options I had, I realized I had no money, no job, no support network, three kids and a car I'd be paying on if I left. He tried to report it stolen, but the cops realized it was in my name. His one mistake opened the door for me to win full custody. I paid for my attorney for years, and was lucky I found one who didn't want a hefty retainer upfront.

So yeah, hearing "you need to leave" is rather ineffective without "what can I do to help you leave" being the second half of that question.


----------



## Jellybeans

TikiKeen said:


> hearing "you need to leave" is rather ineffective *without "what can I do to help you leave" being the second half of that question*.


But that puts the onus on the other person. 

And the fact is, nobody can make anyone do anything they don't want to. Nor is it up to anyone else to "help" someone leave. Sure, assistance is great. But ultimately it's up to the individual.

Whether someone asks that question or not, it is an individual decision to actually leave.


----------



## turnera

TikiKeen said:


> I went to our religious leaders, who reinforced that he was the man of the house and I didn't get to "override" his opinion.
> 
> When he got violent the first time, I called a good friend, who asked me what I did to provoke him. She, in turn, called all my other friends and I was excluded from my support network for having stood up to my husband.


Lemme guess...friends from the same church?


----------



## Caribbean Man

Deejo said:


> Deeply personal, and complex matrix of issues.
> 
> I think the pathology is very straightforward, and human.
> 
> *The fear and pain of remaining in such circumstances MUST outweigh the fear and pain of choosing a completely unknown set of circumstances. And that is a very difficult choice for those in the the thick of things, whereas it looks like a no-brainer to those who are not.*


:iagree:
Yep.

That's what I found out after months of verbal sparring and arguing over lunch or a few glasses of wine in the evenings ,with our marriage counsellor who is a very close friend of ours.
We usually have fun discussing politics , philosophy and arguing gender issues.
She's a feminist.

The exact words she told me were:

" _CM , it has to first reach a critical mass , then the person either fights or flights. Where that critical mass lies is relative to that person's experience in the marriage and before marriage..
And everybody's different_."


----------



## TikiKeen

Jellybean, you're missing the point that asking "what can I do to help" opens the door for brainstorming & openness about the situation to happen.

I learned the hard way that friends who don't ask how to help probably aren't pretty helpful. That's proven true (from both sides of the coin) in non-emergency situations with different friends since then. If friends see another friend struggling and sanctimoniously offer "just stop/get out" suggestions only, there's probably not much of an in-depth friendship there. Friends who honestly say things like "This is daunting, I can't help you leave but I can look up phone numbers for you" or even "I can bring you food" or "I can take you out for coffee while we talk" make a huge impact.


----------



## Jellybeans

TikiKeen said:


> Jellybean, you're missing the point that asking "what can I do to help" opens the door for brainstorming & openness about the situation to happen.


I have not missed the point at all. 

 

We simply do not agree as to the thread subject. And I am totally fine with that.

I am all for advocating women not stay in the sh*t relationships they talk about wanting to get out of. But in the end, it is up to that individual woman to actually leave. Nothing anyone else says or does or asks or offers will make a difference until she actually decides for herself to make a move.

You can lead a horse to water...


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## Nikita2270

> "a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action."


There's a big difference between someone who gets hit by a car crossing the road and someone who repeatedly stands in the middle of a busy freeway every single day and eventually gets hit by a car.



> Nikita, as a feminist, I'm sure you're familiar with this definition of domestic abuse


.

YOU don't define how *I* think. I'm not into group think. I am a feminist in that I believe that women should have equal rights...I DO NOT conform to the belief that women cannot reasonably predict the escalation of an abusive relationship or do not have the power to leave other types of bad relationships.

I also referred through most of my posts to 'bad relationships'...not just domestic violence. There are an entire class of women that choose to stay in a myriad of bad relationships for a variety of reasons.

Why they do that is their own business...however they are NOT victims. Period.



> There's a boatload of research out there contradicting your opinion that these women just need to get it together, suck it up and stop complaining while they leave.


You obviously suffer from a lack of reading comprehension. I don't care if they complain. I simply don't prescribe the whiner club who whine along with them and call them victimized. They aren't...they're participants in their own demise....which again, is their own choice. Whether they choose to leave those relationships is up to them...however, there are systems set-up to provide the means to do so and they do not have to choose what they do.

It always cracks me up when some other "so-called" feminist tells me how I'm supposed to think.


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## Phenix70

Jellybeans said:


> Honestly, Phenix, it sounds like you are projecting.


If you have the nerve to post the opinions you do, from the "safety" of the Internet I might add, then you should have the nerve to accept that not everyone is going to agree with you & you should be able to state your position without falling back on something as mundane as what you have done here. 
Why would you say I'm projecting? 
Because you can't come up with anything better to try to defend your position on this thread?
See, when you TRY to flip it around & make things personal, it just shows that instead of objectively presenting your position, you're resorting to the lowest common denominator, which is trying to put me on the defense.
Surprise, it's not going to work, but nice try.


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## Phenix70

I pose these questions because I am genuinely curious. 
Why does it bother you what other women do or don't do in THEIR relationships?
Outside of being concerned with another woman's mental & physical well being, I am honestly at a loss as to why a woman's relationship choices are a blimp on your radar. 
Would you be okay with other women judging you & your life choices?


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## Jellybeans

Phenix70 said:


> If you have the nerve to post the opinions you do, from the "safety" of the Internet I might add, then you should have the nerve to accept that not everyone is going to agree with you & you should be able to state your position without falling back on something as mundane as what you have done here.


Not everyone agrees on everything. I get that. As for the "safety" and "nerve" -- I am not really sure what you are talking about. This thread was started on an internet forum where people post online--not in a live town hall meeting.

I do not believe my post was "mundane." Because quite frankly, your posts did come across as emotional to me. 



Phenix70 said:


> Why would you say I'm projecting?
> Because you can't come up with anything better to try to defend your position on this thread?
> See, when you TRY to flip it around & make things personal, it just shows that instead of objectively presenting your position, you're resorting to the lowest common denominator, which is trying to put me on the defense.
> Surprise, it's not going to work, but nice try.


What isn't going to work? I am not "trying" to make anything work. I am posting my thoughts. You seem really upset for some reason. This isn't about "defending" a position--we're not in court. I have stated, as well as others, how I feel on this subject. You don't have to like it or agree with me. It's cool. I mean, I certainly don't agree with you. 



Phenix70 said:


> Would you be okay with other women judging you & your life choices?


Reitering thread topic again: When anyone starts a thread (multiples in this case) on an open forum to vent or ask a question or ask what others would do in their situation or to say they are sick and tired of their horrible relationship but they can't leave--they open themselves/their choices/their lives to comments/opinions/judgments/advice/criticism. C'est la internet vie. 

And with that, I really don't have anything further to say to you as this has gone waaay off-topic and I don't care to keep sounding like a broken record.


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## 3Xnocharm

Tiki, I am sorry to read of your history.  

I personally have never seen anyone post here seeking advice be dismissed the way you described in your roommate scenario. There may be one lone poster saying things like, it cant be that bad just ride it out, but there will be 5-6 posters being supportive and caring, and giving solid advice.


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## survivorwife

Phenix70 said:


> I pose these questions because I am genuinely curious.
> Why does it bother you what other women do or don't do in THEIR relationships?
> Outside of being concerned with another woman's mental & physical well being, I am honestly at a loss as to why a woman's relationship choices are a blimp on your radar.
> Would you be okay with other women judging you & your life choices?


I believe that within your own post here, you have answered your own question.

By and large, I don't care what a woman does or does not do in her relationship. I can accept that many women are quite satisfied with their life choices are not seeking feedback and/or advise in this forum. I can accept that most women are mentally, emotionally and physically capable of handing problems that may come up from time to time and do not seek out advise as to how to handle any problems that arise. Again, those women will not be posing their dilemmas here, on a forum.

However, once a woman opens a thread on this forum and seeks out advise from others as to how to handle a given situation, she opens herself up to honest feedback and probing questions in order that the reader may offer a more specific solution. Judging is part of that process. Is the woman physically, emotionally and/or mentally capable of performing that which is necessary to resolve her issue? Are we not allowed to care that she may not be capable of resolving her issues?

And lets assume that she is perfectly capable of resolving her issues but chooses not to? Are we now not allowed to question her motives in posing her problem with no intention of resolving the matter?

By and large, there are many women handling their issues who don't post their life problems on an internet forum and, as a result, can keep their issues private. Once a woman poses her problem here the rest of us can assume that she has found no answers within her "real life" and is seeking answers from anonymous internet posters, like us. She can still maintain her privacy, and so can we. That is the benefit of being here in the first place.

For me in general, women's choices are of no concern to me until I read a post here which peaks my interest and seeks advise. Once she has opened up a discussion, the rest of us are free to respond. She may not like all the responses. Heck, I may not like all of the responses. But we are all free to respond as our opinions differ (in accordance with forum rules, of course...lol)


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## Phenix70

Jellybeans said:


> *And with that, I really don't have anything further to say to you as this has gone waaay off-topic and I don't care to keep sounding like a broken record*.


Sounds good to me, considering that you were the one to engage me & it seems like you deliberately were trying to get a rise out of me. 
Regarding your mundane post, when you resort to going after a poster in a personal manner instead of their argument, that is what is mundane because it's the easiest way to attempt to get out of an argument. 
Instead of attacking my opinions, you attempted to make it personal.
Besides, who cares if my posts were emotional?
Do you have a problem with that too?


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## TikiKeen

3x, Then re-reading the thread and Nikita's "stupid" comments would be a good idea.

Nikita, I pointed out where you are flat-out factually wrong and you took a personal shot with the straw man credential questioning card. If that's you operate, cool. But it still doesn't make your opinion correct factually. I assume I'm also stupid for not taking advantage of the help I couldn't find, and that that applies to abused women, too?

I'm done with this conversation. You win: you've run yet another woman away from the ladies' forum. Congratulations.


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## Jellybeans

Phenix70 said:


> Sounds good to me, considering that you were the one to engage me & *it seems like you deliberately were trying to get a rise out of me. *
> Regarding your mundane post, when you resort to going after a poster in a personal manner instead of their argument, that is what is mundane because it's the easiest way to attempt to get out of an argument.
> *Instead of attacking my opinions, you attempted to make it personal.*
> Besides, who cares if my posts were emotional?
> *Do you have a problem with that too?*


I was not trying to get a rise out of you nor was I "attacking" you nor "arguing" -- I was posting my opinion/comments. Ironically it seems as if you are the one arguing being that you continue to go on about this relentlessly. Once again, you keeping talking about making things "personal" yet you keep posting personally to me.


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## Phenix70

survivorwife said:


> I believe that within your own post here, you have answered your own question.
> 
> By and large, I don't care what a woman does or does not do in her relationship. I can accept that many women are quite satisfied with their life choices are not seeking feedback and/or advise in this forum. I can accept that most women are mentally, emotionally and physically capable of handing problems that may come up from time to time and do not seek out advise as to how to handle any problems that arise. Again, those women will not be posing their dilemmas here, on a forum.
> 
> However, once a woman opens a thread on this forum and seeks out advise from others as to how to handle a given situation, she opens herself up to honest feedback and probing questions in order that the reader may offer a more specific solution. Judging is part of that process. Is the woman physically, emotionally and/or mentally capable of performing that which is necessary to resolve her issue? Are we not allowed to care that she may be not be capable of resolving her issues?
> 
> And lets assume that she is perfectly capable of resolving her issues but chooses not to? Are we now not allowed to question her motives in posing her problem with no intention of resolving the matter?
> 
> By and large, there are many women handling their issues who don't post their life problems on an internet forum and, as a result, can keep their issues private. Once a woman poses her problem here the rest of us can assume that she has found no answers within her "real life" and is seeking answers from anonymous internet posters, like us. She can still maintain her privacy, and so can we. That is the benefit of being here in the first place.
> 
> For me in general, women's choices are of no concern to me until I read a post here which peaks my interest and seeks advise. Once she has opened up a discussion, the rest of us are free to respond. She may not like all the responses. Heck, I may not like all of the responses. But we are all free to respond as our opinions differ (in accordance with forum rules, of course...lol)


Thanks for posting, but you didn't answer my question, which is why does it bother, as it relates to the OP, which is being annoyed by people who post & complain about their relationships.
That's what I'm questioning, I'm not questioning the responses you give a woman who posts a thread as you describe above.
Which by the way, is a very good description of how you posts to those threads.


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## Phenix70

Jellybeans said:


> I was not trying to get a rise out of you nor was I "attacking" you nor "arguing" --I was posting my opinion/comments. Ironically it seems as if you are the one arguing being that you continue to go on about this relentlessly. Once again, you keeping talking about making things "personal" yet you keep posting personally to me.


Wait, hold on a sec, didn't you just post you were done talking to me?
Hmm, someone sure does seem to be getting emotional up in here.
Because you know the worst thing you can be is emotional.
Oh the horror, her emotions are showing!


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## turnera

Phenix70 said:


> Wait, hold on a sec, didn't you just post you were done talking to me?
> Hmm, someone sure does seem to be getting emotional up in here.
> Because you know the worst thing you can be is emotional.
> Oh the horror, her emotions are showing!


Then why don't you show some class and drop it?


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## ScarletBegonias

Phenix70 said:


> Wait, hold on a sec, didn't you just post you were done talking to me?
> Hmm, someone sure does seem to be getting emotional up in here.
> Because you know the worst thing you can be is emotional.
> Oh the horror, her emotions are showing!


Resorting to baiting and sarcasm as a form of proving your point...seems like you're the one getting emotional in here. I'm wondering,since you seem to have a massive problem with the thread have you reported it or complained to a mod about it? Or do you find it more enjoyable to continue needling those who don't agree with you?


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## Deejo

As a matter of fact ...


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