# Love without support or intimacy



## Oliver (Aug 13, 2010)

First of all, I want to apologize in advance for what I'm sure will be a long post, and also to say that I'm very glad that I found this site - it seems like such a great community. I've been lurking for a while but finally got up the courage to create an account and post for the first time today.

I have a situation that is different than many I see posted about on this site; I almost feel guilty for posting about it when so many others have much more severe issues to deal with. Still, I have my fingers crossed that this community will be able to provide some helpful advice.

First, some context. I am in my mid-30s, my wife is a few years older in her later 30s. Neither of us had been married before, but both of us had dated quite a bit and both of us had been in serious, long-term committed relationships before. I had even lived with a previous girlfriend for a few years during/after college.

We met and started dating a little over eleven years ago, and things progressed wonderfully - she moved in with me within 6 months of our first date. We've been married now for over 8 years. We have two kids - a son who's about to turn four, and a girl who's about to turn two - so we took our time and built our relationship before rushing right in to having kids.

In most ways, our relationship is pretty strong; we have a lot in common - I'd say we have an 80% overlap in our hobbies and entertainment tastes, so it's really easy for us to find stuff to do together that we'll both enjoy, but we still have enough of our own unique interests to keep us busy when we spend our leisure time apart. I make enough money to support a pretty comfortable lifestyle and have plenty of job security, which not only allows her to be a stay-at-home mom (she worked outside the home before we had kids) but also means that we rarely have arguments about our personal finances. Also, we've got a good, genuinely shared vision for how we want to parent and raise our children, so if we ever have any disagreements in that area, they are all superficial about a particular tactic employed (or not employed, in some cases) but not about the substance of what we're trying to do or why.

So, even though we have successfully avoided all of those relationship pitfalls, I still have a couple of (probably related) issues that haven't seemed to go away no matter how much we talk about them, and I'm worried that they may impact the long-term health of our marriage.

The first issue is a lack of support and appreciation. When my wife and I first met, she was incredibly kind and extremely sensitive to others' needs and spent a lot of time taking care of people. She was always the one to do things or make herself available for her family/friends/etc. and, to be honest, that was one of the things I found attractive about her personality - her kindness, thoughtfulness, and her warmth. As we spent time together and I really started to get to know her, I discovered that she didn't always like this part of herself, though, because other people (including some exes) had exploited her desire to please people, and did so in all kinds of negative ways. While at first she simply seemed like a very giving person, she was actually her being a doormat for a lot of people out of insecurity, fears of abandonment, etc. I am happy to say that through our relationship she's become much more confident in herself and doesn't let herself get taken advantage of anymore - in fact, she can be quite a butt-kicker when necessary - I'm also concerned that her personal growth has gone a bit too far in the other direction.

I am the first to admit that I am far from a perfect husband. I know that I do things (or don't do things, more typically) that really get on my wife's nerves. Due to my job, I work in an office 50-60 hours a week and I'm on the road roughly one week every other month. So we've made a deal that (with the exception of a few jobs that are always mine, like managing the finances, or always hers, like cooking since I'm inept in the kitchen) when I am at work, running the household and taking care of the kids is 100% her responsibility, and when I'm not at work, then we split it 50%-50%. In reality, I'm pretty sure I fall short of that 50%, but at least I do try to always be doing something with the kids when she's doing some housework or vice versa. 

I also feel like I'm really devoted to my kids. I play with them as much as I can with them on weekends and in the time between getting home from work and their bedtime. Regardless of time/day, I never miss a parent-teacher conference or special activity at my son's preschool (and don't plan to when my daughter is old enough to go), I take him to his after-school activities, I go to all the kids' doctor appointments, I take time off from work to take my kids to the zoo or otherwise hang out, etc. 

I also feel like I treat my wife pretty well - I'm not that romantic anymore, but I do sometimes suggest weekend getaways (if we can get a babysitter) or dinners out. I don't buy her gifts other than on standard gift-giving occasions, but when I do they are nice and what she wants. I am constantly telling her that I love her, that I am attracted to her, how much I appreciate what a good job she does as a mom, how much I love her cooking, how fortunate I am to have her, etc.

I haven't said all this as a way to boost my ego, but just to illustrate that I try really hard to be a good husband and father. My ego gets deflated regularly; trust me when I say that I screw up badly and frequently, but I sincerely believe that those are the exceptions and not the general rule. 

My issue comes into play in the fact that no matter what I do, it's never good enough. I just can't seem to make her happy. No matter how much I help with the housework, no matter how much I spend time with the kids, she's either a) upset that I'm not doing more, or b) just barely satisfied with my effort. Nothing I've ever done in the housekeeping/child care department has ever been praise-worthy. Of course, I don't do it for the praise - I do it because it has to be done and (in the case of the kids) because I enjoy it. But still, all the things I do to provide for the family, help her with the chores/kids, all the love and support and thanks I give her, all I get in return is "not good enough, you must do more", or (when my output in one of those areas is unusually high) "this is how it should be all the time, at an absolute minimum". I know I shouldn't compare, but I get sad/jealous when I hear her friends compliment their husbands on Facebook or talk to her about how much the appreciate their spouses... I mean, if they do that publicly, then they must do it privately too, and compliments/thanks/appreciation for anything just isn't something my wife does in any forum. Again, I know it's wrong of me to compare, but she talks to me about her friends' husbands, so I know that all of them have flaws that are as serious, if not more than mine: some are emotionally abusive, some spend all of their non-work time at a gym/bar/etc. and away from their wives and kids, etc. some are uninterested in parenting, some have job/money troubles, some are suspected of being unfaithful, etc. and yet these guys' wives all still manage to say nice things to/about their husbands semi-regularly, and it just never happens for me. I even made the mistake once of suggesting that she should feel lucky to have me as a husband, because my flaws weren't as bad as most husbands she knows. That led to a week of her reminding me of all the things I don't do well/often enough in her eyes at nearly every chance she got.

I am not a psychoanalyst, but it seems like she's gone from letting people walk all over her to going overboard to make sure people don't get any more from her emotionally than absolutely necessary. It's really frustrating and depressing, because I am the type of person who wants/needs to be in a mutually supportive relationship and thought that I was getting into one when I married my wife.

The second issue is a near-complete lack of affection and intimacy. She never initiates any physical contact with me - never touches or cuddles with me, never holds my hand, and I can literally count on one hand the number of times she's kissed me in the past 5 years. Sure, we've kissed more than a handful of times, but only because *I* kissed *her* - it's never the other way around. It's not just that there's no PDA - there's no affection at all. I hug her, kiss her, massage her, try to cuddle with her on the couch, etc. and she makes a show of putting up with it and then moves away quickly.

Also, when we first started dating and living together, we had a great and active sex life - in fact, she may have been more interested than I was, in the early days - but now sex is pretty infrequent (once or twice a month) and she always makes it clear that she is merely tolerating it for my benefit and that she wants it to be over quickly. She's not frigid or prudish - it's just that she's indifferent to it. She doesn't enjoy it or not enjoy it - it's just sort of something that we do every once in a while, and she doesn't seem to understand why I want it more/more desperately than she does, or why I want it to be more than an obligation to get out of the way.

All of this is very off-putting because I crave affection and intimacy, and it is so unlike the early stages of our relationship and previous relationships that I've had where my girlfriends were very affectionate and amorous. I'm a pretty confident guy, but after years of this I've began to doubt myself a lot (which probably aggravates these issues).

I have tried to talk to her about both these things. On the first issue (support and appreciation) she claims that she does want to support me but doesn't know how to express it, especially when she's unsatisfied with the level of help she's getting with the housework/kids.

On the second issue, my main concern is physical affection, but she always deflects by making it a sex issue, and then uses gender politics to make me feel bad about bringing it up (e.g. "So you're saying we don't have sex enough? Do you think just because I'm your wife you have a right to have sex with me whenever you want?" etc.) I always politely try to explain that it's not just sex - yes, I'd like to have it more often, but that's not the whole point or even most of the point. I just want her to want to be more physically affectionate with me, or at the very least participate when I'm trying to be physically affectionate with her. Still, she always tries to twist it into a sexual issue and dismiss it as such.

Now, please make no mistake - I love my wife very, very much. I've spent a lot of time talking about the bad stuff, but there's a whole lot of good stuff I didn't talk about or glossed over. She's my best friend, the mother of my children, and someone I continue to fall deeper in love with every day, so suggestions like "leave her and find someone who gives you what you want" are probably not going to be helpful. What I am really risking putting all of this deeply personal stuff out there for is the hope that this community might have strategies on how to work through these issues with my wife and address these problems that are always at the back of my mind, and getting worse.

Thanks very much for making it through this huge post, and I am really looking forward to any advice or suggestions that this community may have.


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## txhunter54 (Jul 4, 2010)

Get a copy of the book "Sex Starved Marriage - A Couple's Guide to Intimacy". I think that is the title. It has helped my wife see that intimacy and sex are an important part of a marriage. I told her that celibacy was not an option and that I was dying for affection from her. Whether she wants realizes it or not, intimacy and sex are linked. 

A marriage without intimacy and sex is basically a friendship and roommate relationship. That isn't what I signed up for when I married her and I let her know that.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

I know that you weren't trying to boost your ego, but I'm going to guess that as good as you think you are, you aren't.

Doing all those things are great, but there IS something you aren't doing. It may be that she did something, then you did something, she reacted and the downward spiral continued until here you are today.

And it sounds like she isn't communicating to you what the real issue is. Could be that one week per month away. Could be the 50-60 hours per week of work PLUS being away. Maybe it really isn't 50/50 at home (or at least she doesn't perceive it's 50/50).

I don't think the issue is a sex-starved marriage. if you can resolve the other issue(s), sex will come.

I'd try marriage counseling for both of you. it will give you both a forum to air issues in a controlled, neutral, refereed forum.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Read your post again and then answer:
1. Do you think that overall she treats you with love, kindness and respect? 
2. If not, then why are you constantly sending her the message that you love her? 
3. What consequence do you give her when she treats you really badly? And I am asking for a consequence that changes her behavior. 
4. What do you think it signals to her - when she pushes you away, does not want you touching her and yet you write "I fall deeper" in love with her every day.

Do you see the dynamic here? It is the single most common relationship dynamic. The more you act like a doormat, the more she turns into a shrew. You are creating this monster single handedly. 

Go to "married man sex life" - and read Atholk. If you continue down the "nice guy" death spiral you will end up with her cheating on you/and or simply divorcing you. 





Oliver said:


> First of all, I want to apologize in advance for what I'm sure will be a long post, and also to say that I'm very glad that I found this site - it seems like such a great community. I've been lurking for a while but finally got up the courage to create an account and post for the first time today.
> 
> I have a situation that is different than many I see posted about on this site; I almost feel guilty for posting about it when so many others have much more severe issues to deal with. Still, I have my fingers crossed that this community will be able to provide some helpful advice.
> 
> ...


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## Oliver (Aug 13, 2010)

txhunter54 said:


> Get a copy of the book "Sex Starved Marriage - A Couple's Guide to Intimacy". I think that is the title. It has helped my wife see that intimacy and sex are an important part of a marriage. I told her that celibacy was not an option and that I was dying for affection from her. Whether she wants realizes it or not, intimacy and sex are linked.
> 
> A marriage without intimacy and sex is basically a friendship and roommate relationship. That isn't what I signed up for when I married her and I let her know that.


I will definitely look into this book, thanks. However, I'm concerned that she and I have had these discussions before, and she claims to recognize that sex, intimacy, and affection are important, but says she just isn't an affectionate person and doesn't know how to change. This is confusing because she used to be somewhat more affectionate and significantly more interested in sex.

Also, most importantly to me (and as I mentioned in my original post), sex is only a portion of the overall set of issues, so I'm hoping to gain some insight into what the root cause issues are so that we have something to work on.


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## Oliver (Aug 13, 2010)

Chris Taylor said:


> I know that you weren't trying to boost your ego, but I'm going to guess that as good as you think you are, you aren't.
> 
> Doing all those things are great, but there IS something you aren't doing. It may be that she did something, then you did something, she reacted and the downward spiral continued until here you are today.
> 
> And it sounds like she isn't communicating to you what the real issue is. Could be that one week per month away. Could be the 50-60 hours per week of work PLUS being away. Maybe it really isn't 50/50 at home (or at least she doesn't perceive it's 50/50)


She is pretty explicit about the things she's unhappy with, so I know what I do (and don't do) that makes her unhappy. Believe me, I'm not nominating myself for any "husband of the year" awards any time soon. I agree with you that there could be an underlying issue that makes these things a bigger deal to her than they would be otherwise, and that's what I'm hoping to get some suggestions/thoughts on how to get to.



Chris Taylor said:


> I don't think the issue is a sex-starved marriage. if you can resolve the other issue(s), sex will come.
> 
> I'd try marriage counseling for both of you. it will give you both a forum to air issues in a controlled, neutral, refereed forum.


I agree, I see the sex issue more as a symptom than a cause. I'll think about counseling - I have to admit I'm a bit hesitant because there doesn't seem to be a lot wrong with our relationship other than this lack of positive reinforcement and the physical issues, but I guess you have to nip things in the bud.


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

If your wife asked you to stop for bread on the way home, would expect appreciation for buying butter instead? Would you say, "Well, at least I bought some butter" and expect her to thank you?

If your boss asked you to come in an hour early, would you expect appreciation for arriving 10 minutes early instead? Would you say, "Well, at least I'm here early" and expect him to thank you?

You cannot say all the wonderful things you do and expect accolades for what you don't do.

You are not listening to your wife, and you both need counseling to learn how to communicate better. A woman gets turned off when she feels she's being ignored.


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## Zammo (Aug 9, 2010)

> Nothing I've ever done in the housekeeping/child care department has ever been praise-worthy.


This is sometimes referred to as "maternal gatekeeping" behavior.

By being so involved in housework and childcare, you are, in effect, invading her turf. Women are often judged by the neatness of the home and the good health/behavior of her kids. Often, these judgments come from other women.

It is unlikely you will ever receive praise for your efforts because that is tantamount to your wife admitting you might be doing better in what is considered her territory. As well, a husband should rarely _expect _praise from his wife. A man's self-esteem comes from within. If the wife truly loves and respects her husband, she will express her praise in better ways than just words. Her _actions_ will reveal her respect and admiration for her husband.

There is another underlying issue here. You wife wants you to be a man. Sure, her _words_ might be telling you to be more helpful and contribute more to the household care and kid care but deep down, I think she is slowly losing respect for your manhood because of your NiceGuy(tm) approach to the marriage.

Also, consider learning "Game" in the context of a long-term relationship. More here.


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## Oliver (Aug 13, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Read your post again and then answer:
> 1. Do you think that overall she treats you with love, kindness and respect?
> 2. If not, then why are you constantly sending her the message that you love her?
> 3. What consequence do you give her when she treats you really badly? And I am asking for a consequence that changes her behavior.
> ...


Sorry, I probably misrepresented the situation in my original post. She's not a shrew by any definition - it's not as though she's constantly harping on me... we spend a lot of time together having fun doing things together and/or with our kids. She's not dominant, I'm not submissive. When my mom passed away earlier this year, she made a very strong attempt to be supportive, albeit in an awkward "I don't know what to do for you" kind of way.

The heart of the first issue is just that it never seems to occur to her to give me any indication of appreciation or even satisfaction with me (despite being quick to point out what more I should be doing). It's almost as though she's scared that if she ever complimented me or supported me that I'd give up trying to improve.

She doesn't treat me badly, she treats me indifferently, and that's what hurts - so I can't give her a "consequence" for her never saying that she loves me or never appreciating what I do for the family or never initiating any physical contact with me whatsoever.

We have our fights like any married couple, but most of the time we get along as well or better than most couples I know. We can have a great time together, but I guess the heart of the issue is that I want more out of my marriage than just a "friendship / roommate relationship" (as txhunter54 put it). She says she loves me, and she clearly cares a lot and works hard at making a great, comfortable home for our family, but she's been unable to demonstrate that she can relate to me on a more emotional/physical level for several years.

Again, I'm not trying to be critical of her, I'm just trying to gain some insight as to why our relationship might be this way and some approaches I could take that might successfully start the process of resolving these issues.


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## Bigsigh (Oct 26, 2009)

In all honesty, the BEST book I have read is "how to improve your marriage without talking about it". Great insight as to what is probably going on here.


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## Oliver (Aug 13, 2010)

Susan2010 said:


> If your wife asked you to stop for bread on the way home, would expect appreciation for buying butter instead? Would you say, "Well, at least I bought some butter" and expect her to thank you?
> 
> If your boss asked you to come in an hour early, would you expect appreciation for arriving 10 minutes early instead? Would you say, "Well, at least I'm here early" and expect him to thank you?
> 
> ...


Susan, I understand the point that you're making; don't expect to be appreciated if you're not doing anything worth appreciating, and don't confuse doing something with doing something meaningful. I get it. 

But please believe me, I'm not asking (or wanting) my wife to congratulate me over every mundane task. My concern, and where I feel hurt, is that she has rarely - if ever - just spontaneously said "hey, I'm happy we're together" or even "I love you" without being prompted by me first. She just does not express any affection, verbally or physically.

I ask her what I could do for her to be happy enough with me to be affectionate and I listen very carefully to her response. It's: "I don't know. Probably nothing."

When she complains about specific behaviors or lack of behaviors and those complaints make sense to me, I change. I follow-up with her and ask her if I've addressed the issue. She says, "yes." I work very hard to make sure I don't fall back into those bad habits. Nothing changes her lack of affection. I don't know what more I can do.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Oliver,
Would your wife fill out the love busters/love kindlers questionnaires?




Oliver said:


> She is pretty explicit about the things she's unhappy with, so I know what I do (and don't do) that makes her unhappy. Believe me, I'm not nominating myself for any "husband of the year" awards any time soon. I agree with you that there could be an underlying issue that makes these things a bigger deal to her than they would be otherwise, and that's what I'm hoping to get some suggestions/thoughts on how to get to.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, I see the sex issue more as a symptom than a cause. I'll think about counseling - I have to admit I'm a bit hesitant because there doesn't seem to be a lot wrong with our relationship other than this lack of positive reinforcement and the physical issues, but I guess you have to nip things in the bud.


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## Oliver (Aug 13, 2010)

Bigsigh said:


> In all honesty, the BEST book I have read is "how to improve your marriage without talking about it". Great insight as to what is probably going on here.


I'll check it out - thanks.


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## Oliver (Aug 13, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Oliver,
> Would your wife fill out the love busters/love kindlers questionnaires?


Maybe? I have to admit ignorance - I have no idea what those are.


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

They are at marriagebuilders.com. There is a whole lot to read about there that will help you and your wife. The questionnaires MEM mentioned are in the Emotional Needs section. Each of you fill out a questionnaire (print out 2) and go over the answers together. It will help you see the things you do that she doesn't like and the things she does that you don't like. Then, you both have to stop doing those things. Additionally, read the Love Bank section, plus the Emotional Needs section. They will help you understand love kindlers and love busters.

Also, read about the 5 Love Languages. You both have one or more love language and need to learn them so you can communicate on that level - simply communicating in each other's language.

Your wife doesn't feel she owes you sex, but she does. She is not wrong to feel that way. She's just mistaken. She's not wrong because she doesn't feel she has to be your sex object. It is the things you do/don't do, say/don't say that makes her feel that way. But, she's mistaken because she does not get the adage that "A woman needs love to want sex, but a man needs sex to feel loved." There is more to it, but you both need to understand each other's needs. I understand how she feels, but she has a lot to learn, as do you. All this reading we are suggesting, whatever reading is done, you both should be doing it.

She might not want to participate in the beginning, but you have to impress upon her their importance for the survival of your marriage. That is not to threaten her, nor does it suggest you are thinking about leaving. She just has to understand the marriage cannot survive the way it is going. Let her know that you feel you both have some grievance and things you both are not happy about that should be addressed. Let her know you just want to strengthen the marriage and create a stronger union. Therefore, it is imperative that she participates.


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

At marriagebuilders.com
The Basic Concepts
The Love Bank
Love Busters
The Most Important Emotional Needs
Emotional Needs Questionnaire


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Susan,
This is a great post. 

Oliver,
There is a context that might help you get more out of these questionnaires. And that context is called "I really want to know, even if it is something I cannot change or you think I cannot change". 

I will give you 2 ends of the spectrum:
EASY:
When my wife and I were first dating occasionally I would dress badly. Once we were going to play racquetball and I wore some shorts and shirt that only a drunk and blind man would have matched together. She was livid. Eventually - months later - she told me. By the way she was pretty mean to me that day and I had no idea why. 

And then I told her by color sense is bad, she is always welcome to suggest different clothing and she has discovered that in 20+ years I have never once "declined" her suggestion. 

IMPOSSIBLE:
She wishes I was taller. At least she did when she met me. As to now I am pretty sure she doesn't care anymore. 

Can't be taller right. Right. But for 20 years I have made the effort to stay really really fit. And that effort is my substitute. 




Susan2010 said:


> They are at marriagebuilders.com. There is a whole lot to read about there that will help you and your wife. The questionnaires MEM mentioned are in the Emotional Needs section. Each of you fill out a questionnaire (print out 2) and go over the answers together. It will help you see the things you do that she doesn't like and the things she does that you don't like. Then, you both have to stop doing those things. Additionally, read the Love Bank section, plus the Emotional Needs section. They will help you understand love kindlers and love busters.
> 
> Also, read about the 5 Love Languages. You both have one or more love language and need to learn them so you can communicate on that level - simply communicating in each other's language.
> 
> ...


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## puffs31 (Aug 12, 2010)

I don't have any real advice for you, but I feel for you and all that you are dealing with. You deserve all the things you need and it seems your wife isn't too concerned with making sure you feel like the most wonderful man in her world. Do you think that she is just really unhappy with the way her lifestyle is? Unhappy with herself? IS she unhappy about having you work so many hours and then being gone 1 week out of the month, or is she grateful for all that you do and provide for your family. Do you feel she really loves you?
I say keep loving her the way you do. I think if you could get some counseling, maybe it'll help her see herself differently and understand that she has to do more for you, that she should want to make you feel happy, loved and appreciated.
It sounds like niether of you are fullfilling each others needs right now and a relationship where needs aren't being met will never leave you feeling satified and cared for completly. It also sounds like she is frustrated with you about something
You just remember that you're a catch and I think your wife knows it. You're a husband who puts effort into your marriage and a great father, that is something that is priceless. 
It maybe that she just has deeper issues that need to be worked through so that she can start treating you better and loving you fully.
HAng in there, I hope things will get better for you. And try to keep focousing on all the good things you have together.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Oliver,
I think I know where you are.

AFEH? The A is for Appreciation. It’s something I didn’t get in my marriage. It made me feel I was taken for granted. Here’s an example. She needed a new car. Take her round the showrooms to see what ticked her boxes. Alloy wheels, silver paint, cd player, aircon, VW, small car, not too big, 3 year warranty etc. etc. I buy the car what do I get? Nice romantic meal with special afters? A thank you note? A little pressie? None of those things, I got a smile. What was I expecting? Nothing really but after I got what I got I thought she could have done a lot better.

My wife was very low on appreciation. After we’d split up I got an email. In the email she told me how much she appreciated me when I helped her out when her father passed away 5 years previously, when her brother committed suicide 2 years before that, how much she appreciated me when I helped her and nursed her through various illnesses and there were a few. I told her not to send me that type of email, I wont read them as she may as well be talking over my grave and I cannot hear her.

Now she’s struggling for money. One day she may well wake up and realise I paid all the bills, holidays etc. for the 37 years we were married and she might think to thank me but I very much doubt it.

I sincerely hope you find a way to get what you need from your wife so that you are happy and contented. It’s not too late for you, way too late for me.

Bob


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