# It's Been 4 Years...does it go away?



## brokenbutalive (Dec 16, 2012)

This is my first post on these forums...I have been reading other's, but I apologize I don't fully know all of the acronyms everyone is using yet. This time of year is a huge trigger for me - I "found out" in December 2007.

I initially found out about my spouse's affair in December 2007. I had been having those suspicions, checked spouse's email account and there it was. At first, I thought it was just an emotional affair, until I came across details in emails that discussed a physical affair.

The affair was with a co-worker. I confronted my spouse about the emails, who denied any physical affair - says the emails were jokes, and the spouse knew I was spying so those things were just a "test" to see if I would say anything. I knew better. But I had no where to go and couldn't afford to live alone. My spouse was in denial, saying nothing was going on and told me I was crazy. We sought counseling, I demanded my spouse quit work since the other person was a coworker. My spouse refused to do so for about seven more months.

I feel like an idiot. I was in a very low place in my life at the time - I had been estranged from my family, and I have a special needs child so I didn't have a lot of friends then. My life was hell. I had no one to turn to about what was going on in my life. So I lived miserably for about 7 months with the knowing that something was going on. One day in June 2008 I got a call from the other person who admitted to everything and all of my suspicions.

My spouse came home that morning. My spouse had been texting this other person all night and when I had asked to see the messages they had been deleted. My spouse has never ever (in the last five years) offered details or even a timeline of what happened, maintaining this was only an emotional affair (despite the fact I knew it was a physical affair by discover emails and my phone call with the other person), but does admit that there was an inappropriate relationship. My spouse changed jobs at that point and offered to become immediately transparent, giving me everything I needed such as reassurance, transparency, time, etc.

I struggle every time my spouse becomes close with another individual now. I want to trust, want to love, want to move on. But not ever having been given the truth about what happened makes me feel like I have no closure. I know it probably feels like I have been holding this over my spouse's head for so long, and I have repeatedly asked for explanations, etc., but am told that this was a very low point in my spouse's life and much of that time period cannot be recalled. I think it's a bunch of CRAP. Now, however, I have two children - one with special needs - and have made a huge time investment. Am I crazy for feeling like I need this information to move on? I know it's been 4/5 years, but the wounds still feel so new and my heart just aches.


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## Media_girl24 (Aug 19, 2012)

If your spouse was truly sorry for what happened, they would answer all your questions to set your mind at ease. You have every right to "trigger" when something happens that reminds you of that time... you have no resolution! There are many other people on this forum who know a lot more than I do that can counsel you about what you're experiencing, but the bottom line is that you have a right to know EVERYTHING and you do not. That was a low point in your spouse's life? Well, guess what... your spouse made it a low point in your life as well. The very least your spouse could do to make it up to you is offer a complete explanation.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Your spouse isn't doing much to help you heal.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

you can't move on in any way unless you know exactly what happened, and you don't

so you will forever be wondering....


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Dollystanford said:


> you can't move on in any way unless you know exactly what happened, and you don't
> 
> so you will forever be wondering....


Or at least feel like the spouse has come clean.


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Or at least feel like the spouse has come clean.


Even if she was to admit that it was physical, he'd still have all those details missing, and subsequently would imagine everything anyway. If she has any intention of moving forward in the marriage, admitting her wrongdoing and providing you with the necessary information to heal should be mandatory. 

There is a saying, "You have to feel to heal." She isn't letting you feel anything by asking for you to forget about her betrayal by rugsweeping what she did. Until she allows you to feel what you need to, I don't think you will heal. 

In my marriage there was abuse -- I never dealt with it, just swept it all under the rug. It took 6 years for me to realize I could never trust my STBXH again, so I left. After I left I allowed myself to feel all of the things I had bottled up, and can happily say I am now on the path to recovery. 

Traumatic events such as infidelity, abuse, etc. are like a cancer cell... if you don't attack it it just festers and becomes a huge issue later on.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

Did you go to IC or MC? You say you're worried about your spouse in new relationships,so do you not have clear cut boundaries and consequences set? Sounds like your spouse is only interested in R on their terms.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

To BrokenButAlive
I think that your spouse needs to admit that they betrayed you and her children. If spouse says that and means that and is remorseful and shows it by her actions then I have this to say.

*YOU DO NOT NEED TO KNOW ALL THE DETAILS!*

It is like a moth drawn to the flame. You know that spouse betrayed you and your children that is the major point. Why do you have to know how they did it, did spouse enjoy it, where did they do it, what was said, etc?

I have heard from BS how they still agonize after many years because they cannot get the details out of their mind. *Does knowing the details produce more good or bad?* You know the main thing; spouse cheated! Why torture yourself with soul ripping details? Seeking the details seem to me like being a masochist.

I think that the main thing is to see how much spouse is really being remorseful by her ACTIONS and how much spouse is setting boundaries and how spouse is living her life NOW!!! That is what matters. Most people know that we can be as low as a ****roach at times, we know what a sewer smells like, why do we have to go into the details?

*It has been 4 years! What has your spouse's actions been? *What your spouse has done in the last 4 years is more important than the heart molesting details. 

Maybe some people have a very good reason for the details. *I am willing to learn but I want them to explain to me how the details will produce more good than bad.*


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Mr Blunt said:


> To BrokenButAlive
> I think that your wife needs to admit that she betrayed you and her children. If she says that and means that and is remorseful and shows it by her actions then I have this to say.
> 
> *YOU DO NOT NEED TO KNOW ALL THE DETAILS!*
> ...


How did you figure out if it was a man or woman?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

You know your spouse cheated on you. Physically. That's not a good place to be. And most of us at TAM have been there.

I am in a fairly novel situation, as my wife told me beforehand that she was going to have an affair. So for me there was no accidental discovery of a physical affair.

I never asked her for details. I didn't want to know. 

It's possible to recover and reconcile. And, after all, your spouse chose you over them. That's one thing I told myself to help me through some dark times. And it did help me, somewhat.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

And whilst it never fully goes away, you do feel better, eventually.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

> ... One day in June 2008 I got a call from the other person who admitted to everything and all of my suspicions.
> 
> My spouse came home that morning. My spouse had been texting this other person all night and when I had asked to see the messages they had been deleted. My spouse has never ever (in the last five years) offered details or even a timeline of what happened, maintaining this was only an emotional affair (despite the fact I knew it was a physical affair by discover emails and my phone call with the other person), but does admit that there was an inappropriate relationship...



We are all different people with different outlooks on life, family, history, and countless other things. 

But I have to say that the quote above would be enough for me to walk away - unless questions are answered. Your spouse has ordained that you are unworthy or incapable of handling the truth. Your spouse has appointed themselves the keeper of the secrets - secrets which you have no right to know. 

Is that how marriages are based? Will you ever be able to say "I guess you're right - I don't need or want to know about the events that almost destroyed the marriage"

Troubling also is the apparent fact that it was the affair partner that ended the affair - while your spouse frantically attempted to keep it going. 

Your marriage has a nasty tumor - maybe malignant and your spouse wants you to keep putting makeup on it - spray a little perfume to keep the sight and stink to a minimum. 

I wouldn't be okay with that. Not even.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> How did you figure out if it was a man or woman?


Just a guess, maybe I am wrong about the gender.

However, it does not matter about the gender,* my post and views applies to either gender. The gender is not important in my post*


I need to correct it anyway so I will correct.

Thanks Chapperal, I need to be more accurate even if it does not affect the messge.


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

I agree with Mr. Blunts assessment. Because I wasn't getting answers from my WH, I read 5 years of his emails to his AP...so many details, when, where, how, erotica, passion and on and on...plus lots of nasty comments by both him and her about me... after a year and half of R, I am still plagued by obsessive thoughts, triggers, mind chatter, envisioning all these little details as if in a movie...I would NEVER NEVER recommend reading these details. If the WS is sincere about R and truly remorseful, they will eventually answer your questions. If not, then its pretty obvious they are not willing to be transparent and at the very least seperation is in order...and maybe divorce. We had MC and it helped but unfortunately did not keep it up...any questions I ask now(based on obsessing) feels to him like raking up the past; they remind him how low and dishonorable he behaved and make him wonder whether I am truly able to move on. Trust and Forgiveness? It is hard enough without all the details...forgo knowing them unless you are collecting data for divorce


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

allwillbewell said:


> I agree with Mr. Blunts assessment. Because I wasn't getting answers from my WH, I read 5 years of his emails to his AP...so many details, when, where, how, erotica, passion and on and on...plus lots of nasty comments by both him and her about me... after a year and half of R, I am still plagued by obsessive thoughts, triggers, mind chatter, envisioning all these little details as if in a movie...I would NEVER NEVER recommend reading these details. If the WS is sincere about R and truly remorseful, they will eventually answer your questions. If not, then its pretty obvious they are not willing to be transparent and at the very least seperation is in order...and maybe divorce. We had MC and it helped but unfortunately did not keep it up...any questions I ask now(based on obsessing) feels to him like raking up the past; they remind him how low and dishonorable he behaved and make him wonder whether I am truly able to move on. Trust and Forgiveness? It is hard enough without all the details...forgo knowing them unless you are collecting data for divorce


Forgive? Yes. Trust? Ah! Now that's the problem, isn't it?

When the spouse of a normal person is half an hour late, the spouse thinks: "I hope they are all right!"

The spouse of someone who has been betrayed will think: "I hope they are all right! Oh, God! Are they cheating on me again?" Even if that thought last for a microsecond, it still brings all the fear and self-loathing back.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Joseph's Letter



> This is a copy of a post by Joseph, a member of the now defunct BAN Message Board. He wrote to this letter to his wife to explain why he asked for details of her affair.
> 
> To Whomever,
> 
> ...


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Excerpts from *NOT "Just Friends"*, by Shirly Glass.

After infidelity has entered a marriage, questions about specific details are frequently an entryway into a deeper story. For example, questions about what gifts or cards were exchanged are really probing for how invested the unfaithful partner was in the affair--emotionally and financially. One unfaithful wife and her affair partner made cassette tapes for each other with special love songs. Although it was extremely painful for the betrayed husband to listen to the romantic words of the songs, it helped him realize why it was so hard for his wife to let go of the affair. He was also shaken by what he had neglected. Ultimately, he was inspired to bring more romance back into their marriage.

The following 10 questions will guide your exploration of the circumstances of the infidelity and the meaning behind it. Some of them are questions I use in my clinical practice to bring a slightly different perspective on the underlying motivations. Discussing them will give you the raw material from which to co-construct your story.

*1. What did you say to yourself that gave you permission to get involved?*

There are all kinds of reasons for not stepping over the line that would normally stop you from entering a forbidden territory. Vulnerabilities and values will be revealed by the thoughts and actions that came up as you crossed thresholds into the extramarital relationship. Most likely, discussing these questions will uncover the magnetism of the relationship, the sense of curiosity, or the belief that nothing bad would come of it. One of the most revealing thoughts is whether the unfaithful partner considered the consequences of getting involved or only of getting caught.

For example, how did Ralph (who was married to Rachel) decide to go ahead with that secret lunch date he had with Lara? What was he anticipating? It's important to understand how a platonic friendship can shift into an affair. When people confide to opposite-sex friends about problems in their marriage, they are revealing a weak spot and signaling their availability at the same time. Although women share deep feelings with lots of people, particularly other women, men are usually most comfortable sharing their feelings in a love relationship. As a result, when a relationship becomes emotionally intimate, men tend to sexualize it. 

Through discussions with his wife, Lisa, Les figured out how he let himself be drawn into an affair with Fiona, a new colleague at work. He recognized that it started off with his compassion for Fiona's situation. He was moved by her tale of a distressed marriage, a disabled child, and a terminally ill father who lived with her.

Les admitted that he was flattered by Fiona's idealizing him when she compared him to her insensitive husband. He pictured himself as her protector rescuing her from her troubled life. One freezing Sunday, when he got a call from Fiona asking him to drive over and give her dead battery a charge he did share it with Lisa. Later, he and Lisa agreed that when he stopped talking about Fiona at home and started keeping his weekend phone calls secret, the friendship had shifted into an emotional affair. Sexual intimacy developed as Les became convinced that he was "in love" with Fiona, and he began to detach emotionally and sexually from the marriage.

Fiona had grown up in a working-class family without luxuries. She was thrilled when Les took her out to a simple lunch at a restaurant that had table service. In contrast, when Les and Lisa went to five-star restaurants, they took it for granted as part of their lifestyle. Les felt gratified that he could add a little joy to Fiona's troubled life.

Because Les and Lisa talked about how he felt sorry for Fiona, it became clear to both of them that he was vulnerable to rescuing maidens in distress. He vowed that in the future, he would erect distinct boundaries with unhappy, attractive women who touched his kind heart. When involved partners share their feelings on this level, they are letting their betrayed spouse inside their mind and re-forging their bond. They not only are discussing what occurred, but together they are gaining insight into the underlying dynamics.

*2. After the first time you had sex, did you feel guilty?*

Asking about guilt reveals the internalized values of the unfaithful partner. Some people never feel any guilt about getting involved. People who anticipate guilty feelings before they act are more inclined to avoid dangerous crossings. Others feel guilty after they act, although guilt after the transgression doesn't necessarily keep them from repeating their "sin."

Some people feel so disgusted with themselves after their first extramarital sex that they get together again with the affair partner as soon as possible: another dose of the aphrodisiac offers them a temporary escape from their self-loathing. Some get rid of their guilt and continue the affair by rationalizing that nobody is getting hurt because they are "not taking anything away" from their spouse or family. Others transform guilty feelings by taking responsibility and terminating their extramarital behaviors long before they are discovered.

*3. How could it go on so long if you knew it was wrong?
*
Affairs are both messy and glamorous. The forbidden, unstable nature of secret affairs keeps passion flowing years beyond what's common in a stable relationship. Unfaithful spouses often appear to be addicted to their lovers. They fail in their efforts to end the affair time and time again, pulled back by a magnetic force they can't seem to resist. Only with great determination are they able to break the spell.

Comprehending what started an affair is different from comprehending what kept it going. It may have started out of a shared interest or sexual attraction but continued because of a deepening emotional attachment. Or it may have started as an emotional affair and continued because the sex was so great. Or it may have started because the marriage was in a slump but continued because it assumed a life of its own long after the marriage improved.

It is as important to understand how the affair ended as it is to understand what sustained it. The ramifications of an affair that was ended by the unfaithful spouse before disclosure are very different from an affair that was ended either by the affair partner or by the ultimatums of the betrayed partner. If the affair ended abruptly, the attachment will be harder to break than if the affair died a natural death. It's easier to put a relationship behind you if you're the one who made the decision to leave.

*4. Did you think about me at all?*

If the unfaithful partner had been thinking about the betrayed partner, he or she wouldn't have gotten so involved in the first place. The act of infidelity is not about the person who was betrayed--it is about the person who did the betraying. Betrayed spouses often see themselves as a central character in a spouse's affair and believe that every step was taken with them in mind. "How could you do this to me?" they ask. The reality is that the involved spouse probably didn't consider his or her partner much at all. Simply put, unfaithful partners seldom anticipate the tragic consequences or the pain they inflict.

It will probably be hurtful for betrayed partners to learn that although unfaithful spouses have difficulty suppressing thoughts of their lovers at home, they are unlikely to think about their spouses while they are in their love nests. Intrusive thoughts of lovers flow from necessity of maintaining secrets, but it takes little energy to suppress thoughts of socially sanctioned marriages.

*5. What did you share about us?*

This question addresses the issues of loyalty to the marriage and the nature of emotional intimacy in the affair. The betrayed partner has an understandable interest in knowing how much of a window the affair partner had into the marriage. The betrayed partner might also want to know how he or she and the marriage were portrayed.

Some unfaithful partners give positive accounts of their marriages and glowing descriptions of their spouses, to the bewilderment and chagrin of their affair partners. Others describe their spouses as cold or distant. It's hard to know whether this is an attempt to deceive by making the marriage look bad or whether it is a misguided unburdening of real marital woes. In any case, if you are the unfaithful partner, it's important for you to talk to your spouse about real problems in the marriage that you've discussed only with your affair partner. The next chapter will help you both review the story of your marriage and address these problems together.

In the event that the marriage was shielded and the betrayed spouse was never discussed, why were these topics not discussed with the affair partner? Some unfaithful partners try to keep their double lives completely separate by compartmentalizing. They may delude themselves into thinking that they are honoring their marriage by shielding it from the scrutiny of the person they are cheating with

*6. Did you talk about love or about a future together?
*
Talking about love is likely to bring to the surface errors of assumed similarity. The betrayed partner might insist that love and marriage were part of the picture and won't believe otherwise. If the involved partner does confess to being in love, this admission can make sense of events in a way that rote denials never could. It would explain why the affair went on so long and why it took so long to recover from the loss.

If you are the involved partner, however, you should not fabricate a story of unrequited love just to satisfy your partner's misguided projections. Be honest about whatever romantic declarations or talk of the future did occur. Otherwise, your betrayed partner may fill in the blanks with scenarios that are far more painful than the actual truth. Admit it if you ever shared dreams of "riding off into the sunset" together or said "I love you" in the heat of passion. I have seen it backfire when betrayed partners found incriminating love letters or e-mails after involved partners denied exchanging words of love or dreams of the future.

If you are the betrayed partner, make a strong effort to hear the story without filtering it through your own subjective lens. Infidelity does occur without falling in love. You must be open to versions that vary from your belief system unless you have valid evidence that you are getting a watered-down rendition.

*7. What did you see in the affair partner?*

The betrayed partner will already have a portrait of the affair partner, but it is almost never the whole picture. Betrayed spouses are prone to place all the blame on the affair partner, preferring to believe that their gullible spouse was manipulated and seduced. They may not be willing to accept that the person to whom they're married took an active role, and therefore displace a lot of the anger and rage onto the affair partner. Involved partners must recount the ways they encouraged the affair and invested energy to keep it going. It is less likely that an infidelity will happen again when the involved partner owns up to having been a full participant.

Al and Amber quarreled about their divergent perceptions of his affair partner, Zelda, who worked for him. Amber regarded Zelda as "a ***** and a manipulative **** who was out to get Al's money." In reaction, Al glorified Zelda's competence and loyalty. But the more Al talked about Zelda, the more he realized that he could never have maintained a long-term relationship with her because of her mood swings. Amber, on the other hand, grew to understand that Zelda's constant praise and high energy appealed to Al. Finally, they arrived at a combined picture of Zelda as a hard-working woman with a charged personality who used flattery to get what she wanted

Betrayed partners vacillate between glorifying the lover as an incomparable rival and disparaging him or her as a despicable human being. Questions about physical appearance, personality, and intellect are attempts to see whether they measure up to their rival in sex appeal and achievement. These questions aren't helpful, as they seldom reveal the lure of the affair partners looking rather ordinary. The appeal of the affair is frequently in the positive mirroring or the sounding board it provides, rather than in the lover's charisma.

*8. What did you like about yourself in the affair? How were you different?*

Instead of focusing on what the affair partner was like, it is more productive to focus on what the unfaithful partner was like in the extramarital relationship. New relationships allow people to be different: more assertive, more frivolous, or more giving. A strong attraction of affairs is the opportunity to try on new roles: the insensitive, detached husband becomes energized by his own empathy and devotion; the sexually uninterested wife is exhilarated by newfound passion and erotic fantasies. In long-term relationships, the potential to develop a different persona is constricted by familiarity. For example, a man who is a powerful CEO in a large corporation is regarded and teased in his family of origin as "the baby."

A good question for the involved partner is: "What did you experience about yourself in the affair that you would like to experience in the marriage?" Perhaps the marriage can begin to foster these positive aspects of the self. In fact, the betrayed partner may find it hurtful that the involved partner enjoyed them first with somebody else.

*9. Were there previous infidelities or opportunities, and how was this time similar or different?*

This is an opportunity to examine any patterns of infidelity or near misses that may be relevant to how this affair unfolded. Discuss how you or your partner handled previous temptations, even if no lines were crossed. Explore past experiences of slippery slopes and blurred boundaries. If this is not the first incident, ask how this infidelity is different from or the same as the others. Were there earlier experiences that were "only oral sex" or "sex without love" or "love without sex"? 

Partners who were too accepting of an earlier infidelity can mislead their spouses into thinking it's no big deal to be discovered. One unfaithful husband told me that his affair had been worth it. It had taken him only two weeks to pay for something that had felt good for six months.

Not every couple takes the time or has the guidance and support to work through betrayals that have occurred before. Although you might prefer to move ahead without dredging up all that old, miserable stuff, past affairs that are not dealt with will continue to contaminate your relationship.

*10. Did you have unprotected sex?*

Sad to say, this is one of those questions that you must ask. Ignoring the risk of disease or pregnancy is a thoughtless act. Some unfaithful partners give an adolescent rationale: "We were swept away by love and didn't want it to look like it was preplanned." Although relying on birth control pills or diaphragms may protect from unwanted pregnancies, those methods still expose the participants to sexually transmitted diseases. Few people regard their affair partners as a possible source of infection, so they don't take the necessary precautions to have safe sex.

Unprotected sex is a painful reminder of how inconsiderate and reckless the unfaithful partner may have been during the affair. Regardless of protestations, both spouses should be tested for AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases. Willingness to submit to these humbling medical exams and tests is an act of consideration and accountability by the involved partner that will remove another obstacle to resuming safe marital sex.


Source


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

Read Glass's book, but WH refused to read anything, except personal letters I have written him... wish I had Joseph's letter 1 1/2 years ago...this is exactly how I felt and still do... but as more time passes and we enjoy our new relationship it seems less important...I just wish that the hurt would go away...I'll go days without thinking about it and all of a sudden out of the blue, my heart remembers and all the old hurt and humiliation pour in... I practice letting the thoughts come and go without attaching negative emotions to them and actively try to go to positive memories when they come up, as I am convinced we can form thought patterns in our brain by the repetition of a certain thought(- or +). It then becomes our "default" programming. Anyway, it hasn't helped to try to share these feelings with my husband when they come up...they flood him with negative emotions and he sees them as punishment or at the least totally unproductive and destructive. He does not see it as an opportunity to reassure me by a simple hug and "I'm sorry, I am here".
MattMatt's comment about how easy it is to suspect the worst by a BS is dead-on. Just when will that go away? 
ALSO, would like to hear opinions on whether the original Marriage and/or Vows between couples dealing with infidelity are valid or has it been killed, dead, done, over? Does reconcilliation/survival continue the old marriage or start a new one? I cut off the ring I had worn nonstop for 33 years after Dday and haven't replaced it telling my husband it was for him to do when he is ready to recommit. My finger is still bare.


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