# Spying on your spouse, not such a good idea!



## brat30 (Dec 7, 2011)

Cyber cheating, I've come acrossed a Post on here about a women who's husband has been found cheating on her online, acording to her he was caught on facebook in a realtionship with various women, dirty pictures and so on. So she decided to take it apone herself and instal a "Key Loger." a Key loger records EVERYTHING you type onto your pc, its a Massive invasion of ones privacy, whille it seems harmless to the person who is trying to find out if their spouse is cheating to the other person any information on their pc is recorded to the other person this is basically HACKING and Illegal. In my personal experince being one who has had a key loger on my pc you never get over the invasion, nor do you feel you can totally trust you partner and WHAT if your partner didn't do anything?? The TRUST is gone (between one or both of you) Some beleive if you chat with the oppsit sex its "emotinal cheatng", I personally beleive that you have to be PHYSICALLY with a person to be cheating along i think that somtimes you can get emotinally attached to a person online if you allow yourself. I think if the story had been diffrent (a women was caught cheating and the man had put the Key loger on her pc things would have been very diffrent, the man would be charged and either fined or inprinsoned and charged with some sort of crime and women all over this site would call him all sorts of names and not be sticking up for him like the women are for this women who has caught her husband not PHYSICALLY cheating but "cyber cheating." and hacking into his pc.. Would like to hear from others on your thoughts, if you have been a victem of a key logger, or hacking, etc I am NOT for cheating or anything i just think that two wrongs do NOT make a right!


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

I believe those people on here who have learned of their partner having an EA and/or PA will vehemently disagree with your view.


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## brat30 (Dec 7, 2011)

whats a EA PA, its okay to disagree. Ive said I think cheating is wrong but to spy is just as bad as cheating ur decieving your spouse and loosing their trust too.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

You are right that secret surveillance on ones spouse is a massive invasion of their privacy, yet if there are red flags of infidelity, be it physical or "just" emotional/cybercheating, I will definitely advise an uncertain spouse to snoop if there are no other ways to verify the questioble activities of their spouse. It is not something I'd ever recommend to someone unless there was a specific reason to feel the marriage was being threatened, however infidelity in my mind is a MUCH MUCH worse breach of trust then secret surveilance. The main reason I would justify keyloggers is because it may be the only way for a betrayed spouse to actually learn the truth of their spouses activities, and may arm the betrayed with enough facts to either save the marriage or else their own sanity.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I believe I could easily get past my wife having a quick sexual fling with another man.

I know my wife engaging in an emotional loving romance with another man even if there was no sex would drive me right to divorce.

How do you explain that if cheating is only physical?

I explain it by believing sex is just sex but an emotional connection, a longing desire to be with someone is love.
That can`t be gotten over easily.

I have no problem using whatever means necessary to make certain my wife is holding up her end of this deal we have.

If she passlocked her phone or PC and was acting suspicious there`d be a keylogger on the PC and a text retrieval app on the phone in just a few short hours.
I`d have a VAR and a GPS tracker in her car just as fast.

I don`t hide things from my wife, if she`s hiding things from me I need to know why as there is far too much invested here for me to be flying blind.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

brat30 said:


> I think cheating is wrong but to spy is just as bad as cheating


Completely disagree. I don't even see where spying is wrong at all, you are married after all. I agree it would be wrong to spy on your ex spouse after your divorce. My observation is that spying usually starts after one hears "I'm not in love with you" or "I don't love you". I know that's when I started. And I still check in after my wife is around certain people or when she behaves in a particularly divisive fashion. There is always a cause and effect and the cause is most likely from outside our marriage


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

I don't know if there's a full moon, or if people are just in the mood today to debate the merits, or lack thereof, of posting on this forum, spying on one's spouse, or what deodorant to use. (Said very tongue-in-cheek, mind you ...)

An EA is an emotional affair. A PA is a physical affair. Lots of people post their confusion, hurt, and betrayal over discovering their partner is engaging in "extracurricular activities." Some people start seeing major red flags that make them suspicious an EA or PA is going on. Frequently, folks suggest the concerned party install a key logger to confirm their suspicions of an affair.

Generally, a partner engaged in an affair isn't going to come clean, even when presented with hard evidence. Eventually, they'll come around to admitting the truth, but it helps to know for sure who's doing what and with who.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Come back and post this again after your wife tells you "I love you but I'm not in love with you."

You'll have a totally different perspective on key loggers and the definition of an affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Completely disagree. I don't even see where spying is wrong at all, you are married after all.


I'm pretty sure my wedding vows (nor license) never included anything about spying or the loss of all privacy. Every couple has to set their own boundaries, but I'd be thoroughly unhappy thinking I'd have to grant my wife unfettered access to all my communications. Likewise, I wouldn't want her to feel that everything she says to a friend or family member is subject to her husband's scrutiny. We're married, but still human beings entitled to our own thoughts.
But by all means, do whatever works for your relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

By the time most spouses resort to spying their spouse has most likely already broken their vows aggreviously
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brat30 (Dec 7, 2011)

Did not marriage vowes say somthing in reffernce to TRUST????? if you have to Key log your spouse you have broken this PERIOD. I think people have gone overboard wit the whole internet thing its one thing to go to someone house while you married and have a one night stay or sevreal but to be chatting with someone (NORMAL CHATS) not cyber sex or cam sex and have your spouse Acuse you of cheating and then going into a jealous rage and killing you because someone thought "key" logging was "harmless". so no its not totally harmless it could put someones life endanger...maybe not the normal man or women trying to catch their spouse but my previous husband has used key logger and use to freak out on me for just normal chats and threaten my life...Personally chatting to men or women is HARMLESS but when people start showing their body parts or having cyber sex or forming attachments then their a problem and no it shouldnt be "hidden." but perphas their is problems in the relationship somthing missing that the partnership is lacking that the person is missing or topic the husband/wife is having a hard time talking about they find easier to talk to a stranger and what seems like "cheating" is simply just two people talking about normal stuff.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Of course marriage vows talk about trust. When your husband has shown he can't be trusted because he's a liar and a cheat, come back and lecture us all about invasion of privacy.

And for GODS SAKE learn how to spell.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

brat30 said:


> whats a EA PA, its okay to disagree. Ive said I think cheating is wrong but to spy is just as bad as cheating ur decieving your spouse and loosing their trust too.


Spying is not cheating. Spying is a spouse protecting the marriage and frankly looking out for thier spouse. Transparency solves this.

An EA is a chemical thing. Oxytocin and dopamine. It is an addiction. One has to go through withdrawal to get past it. I speak from experience. 

Fundamentally I disagree with you and that is ok. I will not try to convince you otherwise. In my opinion marriage is based on love and respect. Trust is a by product. I believe in transparency. Letting a person of the oppositie sex fill emotional needs is very risky. It feels ok. It feels just like a close friendship. However, the feeling good is part of the chemicals in the brain. There should be no secrets from your spouse. If your communications with members of the opposite sex has to be hidden there is a real problem.

Having secrets at all is breaking trust. 

There are levels:

1) Inappropriate behavior
2) Unfaithfulness
3) Cheating

There are levels within each of these. What is a PA? For some it is defined as penetration. I think that is too limited for sure.

Having secrets on prupose is unfaithful. Inappropriate behavior is usually not intended. If it is intended I say it has moved over into the unfaithful area. It is not just about sex either. 

All of the above is about having proper boundaries.

EAs generally occur along those three levels.

If someone is being spyed upon it is most likely that their behavior has warranted this. If they are keeping secrets from their spouse then they are no worthy of trust.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

brat30 said:


> Did not marriage vowes say somthing in reffernce to TRUST????? if you have to Key log your spouse you have broken this PERIOD. I think people have gone overboard wit the whole internet thing its one thing to go to someone house while you married and have a one night stay or sevreal but to be chatting with someone (NORMAL CHATS) not cyber sex or cam sex and have your spouse Acuse you of cheating and then going into a jealous rage and killing you because someone thought "key" logging was "harmless". so no its not totally harmless it could put someones life endanger...maybe not the normal man or women trying to catch their spouse but my previous husband has used key logger and use to freak out on me for just normal chats and threaten my life...Personally chatting to men or women is HARMLESS but when people start showing their body parts or having cyber sex or forming attachments then their a problem and no it shouldnt be "hidden." but perphas their is problems in the relationship somthing missing that the partnership is lacking that the person is missing or topic the husband/wife is having a hard time talking about they find easier to talk to a stranger and what seems like "cheating" is simply just two people talking about normal stuff.


Traditional Wedding Vows 1:
I, (name), take you (name), to be my (wife/husband), to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish; from this day forward until death do us part.

Traditional Wedding Vows 2:
I, (name), take you, (name), to be my [opt: lawfully wedded] (husband/wife), my constant friend, my faithful partner and my love from this day forward. In the presence of God, our family and friends, I offer you my solemn vow to be your faithful partner in sickness and in health, in good times and in bad, and in joy as well as in sorrow. I promise to love you unconditionally, to support you in your goals, to honor and respect you, to laugh with you and cry with you, and to cherish you for as long as we both shall live.

Traditional Wedding Vows 3 (traditional civil ceremony vows):
(Name), I take you to be my lawfully wedded (husband/wife). Before these witnesses I vow to love you and care for you as long as we both shall live. I take you with all your faults and your strengths as I offer myself to you with my faults and strengths. I will help you when you need help, and I will turn to you when I need help. I choose you as the person with whom I will spend my life.

Traditional Wedding Vows 4:
I, (name), take you, (name), to be my beloved (wife/husband), to have and to hold you, to honor you, to treasure you, to be at your side in sorrow and in joy, in the good times, and in the bad, and to love and cherish you always. I promise you this from my heart, for all the days of my life.


Jusy some traditional wedding vows. Vows are custom for each marriage.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> When your husband has shown he can't be trusted because he's a liar and a cheat, come back and lecture us all about invasion of privacy.


Thank you, Hope, for saying what I so dearly yearned to say myself.



Hope1964 said:


> And for GODS SAKE learn how to spell.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

THANK YOU ONCE AGAIN, HOPE.


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## KJ5000 (May 29, 2011)

brat30 said:


> Did not marriage vowes say somthing in reffernce to TRUST????? if you have to Key log your spouse you have broken this PERIOD. I think people have gone overboard wit the whole internet thing its one thing to go to someone house while you married and have a one night stay or sevreal but to be chatting with someone (NORMAL CHATS) not cyber sex or cam sex and have your spouse Acuse you of cheating and then going into a jealous rage and killing you because someone thought "key" logging was "harmless". so no its not totally harmless it could put someones life endanger...maybe not the normal man or women trying to catch their spouse but my previous husband has used key logger and use to freak out on me for just normal chats and threaten my life...Personally chatting to men or women is HARMLESS but when people start showing their body parts or having cyber sex or forming attachments then their a problem and no it shouldnt be "hidden." but perphas their is problems in the relationship somthing missing that the partnership is lacking that the person is missing or topic the husband/wife is having a hard time talking about they find easier to talk to a stranger and what seems like "cheating" is simply just two people talking about normal stuff.


Having something "missing" in a relationship is no excuse for secretive, sneaky behavior.
If you're not comfortable discussing what's missing between the two of you, talking to some male 'friend" (cyber or otherwise) is not going to help.
Most of the time guys in that situation will just tell you that hubby is wrong and how much better they'd treat you....
TO GET IN YOUR PANTS!


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

alphaomega said:


> Come back and post this again after your wife tells you "I love you but I'm not in love with you."


Thank you, alpha, for putting this so-called "debate" by OP in its proper perspective.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Some non-traditional vows:

My One True Love:
I (name), take you (name) to be my (husband/wife), my partner in life and my one true love. I will cherish our union and love you more each day than I did the day before. I will trust you and respect you, laugh with you and cry with you, loving you faithfully through good times and bad, regardless of the obstacles we may face together. I give you my hand, my heart, and my love, from this day forward for as long as we both shall live.

The Man or Woman You Will Become
I, (name), take you, (name), to be my partner, loving what I know of you, and trusting what I do not yet know. I eagerly anticipate the chance to grow together, getting to know the (man/woman) you will become, and falling in love a little more every day. I promise to love and cherish you through whatever life may bring us.

When Our Love is Simple, and When it is an Effort
(Name), I love you. You are my best friend. Today I give myself to you in marriage. I promise to encourage and inspire you, to laugh with you, and to comfort you in times of sorrow and struggle.
I promise to love you in good times and in bad, when life seems easy and when it seems hard,
when our love is simple, and when it is an effort. I promise to cherish you, and to always hold you in highest regard. These things I give to you today, and all the days of our life.

Trust in You Completely
(Name), with all my love, I take you to be my wife/husband. I will love you through good and the bad, through joy and the sorrow. I will try to be understanding, and to trust in you completely. Together we will face all of life's experiences and share one another's dreams and goals. I promise I will be your equal partner in a loving, honest relationship, for as long as we both shall live.

Share in Your Dreams
(Name), from this day forward I promise you these things. I will laugh with you in times of joy and comfort you in times of sorrow. I will share in your dreams, and support you as you strive to achieve your goals. I will listen to you with compassion and understanding, and speak to you with encouragement. I will remain faithful to our vows for better or for worse, in times of sickness and health. You are my best friend and I will love and respect you always.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> In my opinion marriage is based on love and respect. Trust is a by product. I believe in transparency. There should be no secrets from your spouse. If your communications with members of the opposite sex has to be hidden there is a real problem.


Can you really respect a person who you feel compelled to spy upon? Spying, IMO, is inherently disrespectful. You are disrespecting a person's wishes not to share something with you. There are some instances when that disrespect is warranted, i.e. checking on someone who's proven to be untrustworthy, keeping tabs on an addict. But spying shouldn't be the default setting in any adult relationship, including marriage.

And of course there should be secrets from a spouse. I have no need to know every thought that runs through my wife's mind during any given day, even if she expresses it to another person. And the same goes for her. 

I'm all for investigating red flags, but I don't believe marriage strips a person of any and all privacy. I trust the people I've chosen to allow into my life until they give me reason to distrust them. I don't waste my time looking for reasons to distrust them. That, IMO, would be an awful way to live.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ren (Aug 1, 2011)

brat30 said:


> ...
> Ive said I think cheating is wrong but to spy is just as bad as cheating ur decieving your spouse and loosing their trust too.


I disagree completely. Cheating is completely unethical and unjustifiable. Cheating is a total betrayal of trust. Cheaters knowingly risks the life of their partner without consent, and they do it out of selfishness. Spying may be an unethical betrayal of trust, but it can be justified in some circumstances.

I'm deeply uncomfortable with spying, but having read so many accounts here of the situations in which people have chosen to spy on their spouse I can't say it's never right to do it. There are times when spying seems like the only reasonable thing a person can do, the rational response to the available facts. If you have a history of cheating, if your behavior creates legitimate suspicion, you should understand and accept that your spouse has justification to spy on you. I've not cheated and don't behave suspiciously, but I know if I found my partner had a keylogger on my computer and was reading every word I just typed I wouldn't feel betrayed by her. I would feel a bit violated and be upset, but I would recognize the necessity of her spying was the logical consequence of my questionable behavior.


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

Spying is a problem if you are not married to the person on whom you are spying. Cheating is worse than spying. If a person is spying in order to be controlling or abusive or manipulative, rather than to discover the truth about cheating, that makes it more problematic. Intent makes a difference in how you define an action and while it is definitely a breach of privacy, that breach of privacy is justified when a marriage partner is breaking a contract secretly. And, I think it's just as acceptable to use a keylogger on a wife as on a husband. Again, you can't remove the context and the circumstances from your discussion of whether or not the action is objectionable. Consider the difference between striking a person as an aggressive act and striking someone in self-defense when being attacked; those are NOT the same thing. If you're breaking someone's trust and spying on that person, there has to be a reason for it and there have to be constraints around that action, too. If you're married to someone, you are in many ways sharing your life with that person and it's not really spying the way it would be if you were doing so to an ex or a stranger or someone to whom you are not legally bound.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> Can you really respect a person who you feel compelled to spy upon? Spying, IMO, is inherently disrespectful. You are disrespecting a person's wishes not to share something with you. There are some instances when that disrespect is warranted, i.e. checking on someone who's proven to be untrustworthy, keeping tabs on an addict. But spying shouldn't be the default setting in any adult relationship, including marriage.
> 
> And of course there should be secrets from a spouse. I have no need to know every thought that runs through my wife's mind during any given day, even if she expresses it to another person. And the same goes for her.
> 
> ...


Frank, all I can say is that I probably have experiences in life that you have not had yet. If one truly understands the dynamics of an EA, the addictive behavior of it you could understand this. Since I have experienced this first hand I have an advantage over those who have not. Nothing to be proud of by any means.

EAs a re rampant. The brain chemicals alter the behavior. Understanding this is critical to handling this. Until I went through it I had no idea how powerful they are.

I would not respect anyone who kept secrets from me. In no way would I be married to them. It is a deal breaker for me. It is that important. If being private works for you then great. I think a spouse loving their partner enough to investigate what is going on is inherently loving and respectful. To a great extent I think if you have to spy then the other spouse has already been unfaithful to you by keeping secrets. I doubt I would spy further personally. Them being secretive would be enough to desolve the marriage. That is just me.

A person in an EA has a chemical addiction. If you do not buy into that premise then fine. I do. Been there.

So we disagree. We often do. We both can live with that. But we do agree that one would not be spying without some reason.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

I smell a cheater. Seriously!


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

desert-rose said:


> Spying is a problem if you are not married to the person on whom you are spying. Cheating is worse than spying. If a person is spying in order to be controlling or abusive or manipulative, rather than to discover the truth about cheating, that makes it more problematic. Intent makes a difference in how you define an action and while it is definitely a breach of privacy, that breach of privacy is justified when a marriage partner is breaking a contract secretly. And, I think it's just as acceptable to use a keylogger on a wife as on a husband. Again, you can't remove the context and the circumstances from your discussion of whether or not the action is objectionable. Consider the difference between striking a person as an aggressive act and striking someone in self-defense when being attacked; those are NOT the same thing. If you're breaking someone's trust and spying on that person, there has to be a reason for it and there have to be constraints around that action, too. If you're married to someone, you are in many ways sharing your life with that person and it's not really spying the way it would be if you were doing so to an ex or a stranger or someone to whom you are not legally bound.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Frank, all I can say is that I probably have experiences in life that you have not had yet. If one truly understands the dynamics of an EA, the addictive behavior of it you could understand this. Since I have experienced this first hand I have an advantage over those who have not.
> 
> EAs a re rampant.


Your experiences may very well be different than mine, but I'm not sure I'd call that an advantage. What you see as having learned to be vigilant I could just as easily argue has made you cynical, untrusting and perhaps even a touch paranoid. Perhaps for good cause, but still ... 

Let me reiterate: I have no issue with snooping on a partner who's displayed reason for mistrust. But spying should not be the default setting.
Oh, and I don't buy the notion that one should spy on their spouse for their own good. We're not that naïve, are we?

I'm sorry you've had your experience. Truly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> Your experiences may very well be different than mine, but I'm not sure I'd call that an advantage. What you see as having learned to be vigilant I could just as easily argue has made you cynical, and perhaps even a touch paranoid.
> 
> Let me reiterate: I have no issue with snooping on a partner who's displayed reason for mistrust. But spying should not be the default setting.
> Oh, and I don't buy the notion that one should spy on their spouse for their own good. We're not that naïve, are we?
> ...


I am not advocating that spying be a default. In fact I doubt I would do it to the level that many do here.

I was the one in the EA. My wife saw changes in my behavior / attitude. She looked at my email. I was not hiding my email BTW. At that time I did not see what I had in the emails as anything more than a close friendship. After I went through withdrawal I could saw my emails for what they really were. Just saying that being in an affair cloudes our judgement. That is why they call it the fog. I would have never believed just how much. So what I am saying is that through my own mistakes and faults I have a view that others may not. So please see my comments as ones of "don't make the same decisions and mistakes as I have".

I saw what my wife did as a loving act. I have learned much through all of this. I have better boundaries for sure. I have a real respect for those brain chemicals.


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## Darkhorse (Dec 3, 2011)

I just come out and ask my husband. I know people can be good liars, but he's a horrible liar. lol. We've not had an issue with cheating, but I have just come out and said, "I'm feeling my spidey senses coming up! What's up! Anything you want to share?"

The last time I said that, his response was, "I was fired today."

I KNEW IT! :rofl:

But, unlike many of you, I have NOT been cheated on so...I cannot say what I would do in that situation. Never say never.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Spy when your gut starts screaming. This is not the default position. Do it when you have articulable suspicions. Most of us are not paranoid nuts. You can tell when things feel off.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I think spying is wrong, thats why I would hire a PI to do it for me!


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## brat30 (Dec 7, 2011)

OKAY BUT see it from my eyes, you married to someone who is very selfish doesnt allow you any friends, you cannot talk to family, you are not allowed to even look people without verbal bashing from your husband, he is EXSTREAMLY jealous and when you talk to him about issues he goes into a mood and does whatever he can to make you feel like crap....then the internet comes around and now you have a sorce of way of communitcating with someone who isn't going to judge you (or obviouly many have) you don't have to fear for you life at that point then SUDDENLY your jealous husband finds a way to read everything you right (all totally innocent) but your husband is the type that twist and turn s words and totally insecure anyways he installs this stupid logger finds out you have been chatting with men and women and goes phycotic on his wife....or she goes phycotic on her husband and kills him (Put yourself in the eyes of a wife is has no other company but the computer she ISNT cheating just normal everyday chatting) but to the eyes of her jealous spouse he takes it as cheating even if shes chatting to a girl!


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## brat30 (Dec 7, 2011)

Im fairly good at finding out if ive been cheated on but i WOULDNT go into someones personal computer or spend money on software.


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## square1 (Oct 31, 2011)

brat30 said:


> Im fairly good at finding out if ive been cheated on but i WOULDNT go into someones personal computer or spend money on software.



Just wondering how many relationships you were in prior to your marriage to determine you were good at finding out about cheating since you are 29 been with your husband for 11 yrs so at 18 yrs old how many other guys were you with?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Curious, why can't your H look at you computor (or can he), whats so private between a husband and wife? When two become one? No secrets? Let him look when ever he want ....should be no biggy.


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## Darkhorse (Dec 3, 2011)

My husband would be so bored on my computer and phone. Just a bunch of women talking about recipes, work, kids and fart jokes.


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## brat30 (Dec 7, 2011)

square1 said:


> Just wondering how many relationships you were in prior to your marriage to determine you were good at finding out about cheating since you are 29 been with your husband for 11 yrs so at 18 yrs old how many other guys were you with?


actually I miscalculate its more like 9 eyears married he isnt my first husband. my FIRST husband would put the logger into my system simply because he wanted to control me any way he could and i married him when i was 18 it lasted like 2 years my secound marriage started age 20 and current. I know about my fair share of cheating but more about partners trying to keep tabs on their spouse ab abusive partners then anything!


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## losing_hope (Dec 1, 2011)

Having been on the receiving end of spying, I'll say that spying really doesn't make a difference in the mind of the person doing the spying. When they're doing that, they've already made up their mind, and it's only a matter of finding the evidence. 

And there are only two possible outcomes in the mind of the spy - either, a) he/she was cheating or b) he/she hid the cheating too well.

I never cheated on her, though. But I never got an apology either.

But not only did she commit a felony, by reading my work emails, she put me in extremely difficult position. At least they never found out at work.

Now, from purely pragmatic point of view, do you think committing a felony is going to help or hurt you in case of a divorce?


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## brat30 (Dec 7, 2011)

Very Vaild Points Lossing. I'm sorry like me you have people spying on you. My ex would make the habbits of waiting till i get home from work and then he would blow up at me about how "who the hell was i talking to online, do i not love him anymore...that im so this and that." He would go as far as to at one point took my webcam and smashed it because i was webcaming (with clothes on) to a friend...he didnt "aprove of" he also threw my cell phone on a busy road because he thought i was talking to other men! I think spy wear software is about not having control of yourself and trying to have power over someone eles.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> Can you really respect a person who you feel compelled to spy upon? Spying, IMO, is inherently disrespectful. You are disrespecting a person's wishes not to share something with you. There are some instances when that disrespect is warranted, i.e. checking on someone who's proven to be untrustworthy, keeping tabs on an addict. But spying shouldn't be the default setting in any adult relationship, including marriage.
> 
> And of course there should be secrets from a spouse. I have no need to know every thought that runs through my wife's mind during any given day, even if she expresses it to another person. And the same goes for her.
> 
> ...


The idea that people talk about is not to spy on a spouse for no reason. It's only when things in a marriage have gotten completely out of hand.

A person whose spouse is cheating has the right to know. They have the right to decide for themself if they want to stay in the marriage, set boundries or get out. The cheating spouse does not have the right to keep their bad behavior a secret and make such decisions for the betrayed spouse.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

brat30 said:


> Very Vaild Points Lossing. I'm sorry like me you have people spying on you. My ex would make the habbits of waiting till i get home from work and then he would blow up at me about how "who the hell was i talking to online, do i not love him anymore...that im so this and that." He would go as far as to at one point took my webcam and smashed it because i was webcaming (with clothes on) to a friend...he didnt "aprove of" he also threw my cell phone on a busy road because he thought i was talking to other men! I think spy wear software is about not having control of yourself and trying to have power over someone eles.


Your ex was abusive. That's a completely different situation.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

losing_hope said:


> Having been on the receiving end of spying, I'll say that spying really doesn't make a difference in the mind of the person doing the spying. When they're doing that, they've already made up their mind, and it's only a matter of finding the evidence.
> 
> And there are only two possible outcomes in the mind of the spy - either, a) he/she was cheating or b) he/she hid the cheating too well.
> 
> ...


Who has suggested that anyone commit a feloney? If your wife broke into your work email, she was wrong. I doubt anyone here would tell her to commit a felony.


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## always_hopefull (Aug 11, 2011)

To me your H sounds abusive, but that's a whole other thread. As for the spyware, I'm sorry but I've been on the receiving end of that "innocent chat" speech, and let me tell you it wasn't so innocent. My exH was out trolling for other women using the net. 

If you really want to prove him wrong then let him see he is wrong, give him full access. Remember, those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.


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## losing_hope (Dec 1, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Who has suggested that anyone commit a feloney? If your wife broke into your work email, she was wrong. I doubt anyone here would tell her to commit a felony.


Here's what New York Penal Code Article 156 says:

_S 156.10 Computer trespass.
A person is guilty of computer trespass when he knowingly uses or causes to be used a computer or computer service without authorization and:
1. he does so with an intent to commit or attempt to commit or further the commission of any felony; or
2. he thereby knowingly gains access to computer material.

Computer trespass is a class E felony.
_

Now, I'm pretty sure nowhere in there does it say "Unless your spouse is cheating on you". It doesn't even distinguish personal and business systems! So yes, in New York, keyloggers, or even just guessing the email password, is a felony. There are other states that have similar laws.

Everybody who is saying "It's not the same, we only say it if you know your spouse is cheating!" Well, my wife knew that I was cheating. Except I wasn't.

If you know your spouse is cheating, why do you need more evidence? And if you don't know, there is a non-zero chance that he/she isn't.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Brat, I think most people here would never make protection of the fidelity of the marriage into a dealbreaker, in fact most people on here would probably feel a really big boost in the security of their marriage if they found out their spouse had resorted to snooping. Sure I'd be a little uncomfortable, maybe a little offended if my W had snooped on me, but in a marriage is one place where I think if you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to be worried about.

Now cheating, that is pretty much a dealbreaker unless it really was a mistake and the cheater is completely remorseful and repentant... Abuse is also a dealbreaker (and I would consider constant surveillance and control over ones spouse a form of abuse) - I realize it is probably very difficult to get out of that situation, however seeking extramarital relationships is not the way, if you need to get out of a marriage (at least in the western world where there is equality under the law) you file for divorce. 

When you are at peace on your own you will be ready for a relationship, but jumping from one man's bed to another is just inviting in unhealthy elements into your life.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

losing_hope said:


> Here's what New York Penal Code Article 156 says:
> 
> _S 156.10 Computer trespass.
> A person is guilty of computer trespass when he knowingly uses or causes to be used a computer or computer service without authorization and:
> ...


On a company's hardware, this is applicable, if it is on the home PC or laptop (owned by the marriage partners) then it is marital property - you can't trespass on what you own because you already have license to it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

losing_hope said:


> Here's what New York Penal Code Article 156 says:
> 
> _S 156.10 Computer trespass.
> A person is guilty of computer trespass when he knowingly uses or causes to be used a computer or computer service without authorization and:
> ...


The law applies to computers that do not belong to the person. We have 5 computers in our home. They are community property. That means they all belong to me too. It is legal for me to but keystroke monitoring software on any computer I own.



losing_hope said:


> Now, I'm pretty sure nowhere in there does it say "Unless your spouse is cheating on you". It doesn't even distinguish personal and business systems! So yes, in New York, keyloggers, or even just guessing the email password, is a felony. There are other states that have similar laws.


Yes it’s illegal to put a key logger software on a computer that you do not own without the permission of the owner. The distinction is who owns the computer. If the computer is in your house and its community property or your own personal computer then you have the right to put anything you want on it. 


losing_hope said:


> Everybody who is saying "It's not the same, we only say it if you know your spouse is cheating!" Well, my wife knew that I was cheating. Except I wasn't.


 If my spouse thought I was cheating I would welcome that he do whatever it took to see that he’s suspicions were wrong. I have nothing to hide from him. It that is what it takes to help him get through a tough time, then so be it.


losing_hope said:


> If you know your spouse is cheating, why do you need more evidence? And if you don't know, there is a non-zero chance that he/she isn't.


A person has the right to know if their spouse is cheating. I do suggest that they consult with an attorney and know the laws before they put any kind of log tracker on computers. As long as they do this within the law it’s a completely valid way to protect one’s self.


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## brat30 (Dec 7, 2011)

iF IT HAD been read correcting i said EX spouse was abusive and used Key logger to control me. Im quit happy in my current circumstances thanks. I just think that the key logger is wrong my oppion and im WELCOMED to it. But those who are using it to spy of course are going to see it from a diffrent prospective they aren't guilty in the least bit of commiting a crime they COULDNT be part of the reason why their spouse is cheating....people don't just wake up and say "Hey today Im going to cheat on my wife..." or Husband it DOESN'T HAPPEN...this is a long time coming!!! Their are WARNING SIGNS!!!! You all seem to think i've never been on the reciving line well think again...i had a boyfriend who left me went to another country and told me "he'd be back in a month then e-mailed me that he had found someone eles....and it was both a girl and a guy!!! My ex husband cheated on me with one of my Older friends!!!!! I've had my share BUT two WRONGS DONT MAKE A RIGHT THATS ALL THERE IS TO IT! You can get mad and spightful (like most women do) and use all ur energy OR you can deal with the problem (WITHOUT) hacking into his pc, find a decent lawyer and Divorce his Butt....(because MOST women know their man is cheating WAY before any stupid computer software is installed) Today's issue is the law works for women to get EVERYTHING they want and Men get NOTHING...!


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## scione (Jul 11, 2011)

I would rather be a spying scum than a Cuckold


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## brat30 (Dec 7, 2011)

Well the computer belonged to the HUSBAND not the wife therefor ITS A CRIME but she'd never be processed because she's a women and thats the way the world works but hey if it was a man he;d be carted off to jail in a heart beat!


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

You should have nothing to hide in a marriage. Including key strokes on your computer.

How do you have an invasion of privacy comitted by your spouse. there should be no privacy from the one you love...unless you have something to hide.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

brat30 said:


> iF IT HAD been read correcting i said EX spouse was abusive and used Key logger to control me. Im quit happy in my current circumstances thanks. I just think that the key logger is wrong my oppion and im WELCOMED to it. But those who are using it to spy of course are going to see it from a diffrent prospective they aren't guilty in the least bit of commiting a crime they COULDNT be part of the reason why their spouse is cheating....people don't just wake up and say "Hey today Im going to cheat on my wife..." or Husband it DOESN'T HAPPEN...this is a long time coming!!! Their are WARNING SIGNS!!!! You all seem to think i've never been on the reciving line well think again...i had a boyfriend who left me went to another country and told me "he'd be back in a month then e-mailed me that he had found someone eles....and it was both a girl and a guy!!! My ex husband cheated on me with one of my Older friends!!!!! I've had my share BUT two WRONGS DONT MAKE A RIGHT THATS ALL THERE IS TO IT! *You can get mad and spightful (like most women do)* and use all ur energy OR you can deal with the problem (WITHOUT) hacking into his pc, find a decent lawyer and Divorce his Butt....(because MOST women know their man is cheating WAY before any stupid computer software is installed) Today's issue is the law works for women to get EVERYTHING they want and Men get NOTHING...!


Nice insult to women... :scratchhead:


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

brat30 said:


> Well the computer belonged to the HUSBAND not the wife therefor ITS A CRIME but she'd never be processed because she's a women and thats the way the world works but hey if it was a man he;d be carted off to jail in a heart beat!


Ya cause the world is unfair to men in comparison to women.

I'll remember to ask the women of India, China and the middle east..."why so glum, chum?"


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

lol

in probably about 99.9% of cases where anyone (male or female) spies on their spouse is there any legal consequences, prosecutors just don't want to bother with such crimes

so your conspiracy theory about women getting the short end of the stick in this case is false

regardless, your opinion is completely based on the experience of your abusive husband. He spied as an abusive tool and not to protect a marriage or protect a betrayed spouse. Clearly I would hope you know the difference.


BTW-

I love how you have a defined definition of what's cheating when it comes to chatting online.

The truth is that there is no definitive particular act that is cheating, it's all about implicitly stated boundaries or implied boundaries. If your hubby is okey dokey with engaging in sex chats with "friends" then it's not cheating. But it mostly comes down to the fact that if you have to hide what you are doing from your spouse then it's likely crossing that boundary.


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## brat30 (Dec 7, 2011)

Im talking about when a man goes to get divorced from his wife she gets everything regurdless of the circumstances...Sin must be a women. I am a women and ive seen how my husbands ex was very spitful and tried to take all of his money and refused to get a job even had the nerve to steal his truck, come into our home steal his grandfathers camera and some other belognings that WEREN'T HERS but because they were "common-law" partners the court went in her favor even though they were NEVER hers...he did get his truck back (which wasnt hers to beging with!)


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## brat30 (Dec 7, 2011)

I dont have "sexual chats." so i dont appericate you assuming i do. He spied as a tool to Control all aspects of me that is why i beleive THAT its wrong its a form of control. No man or women has a right to control their partner. Everything should be Equal not just being married but when you Divorce EQUAL..! My husband knows I chat about NORMAL STUFF i dont talk about sex, people who sit there and talk about sex obviouly are losers who live in Mummys basment and play with themselfs lol I think cheating is only when its PHYSICAL...THATS WHAT IM STICKING TO...i'm sorry its Bitter Wives club day!


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

brat30 said:


> Im talking about when a man goes to get divorced from his wife she gets everything regurdless of the circumstances...Sin must be a women. I am a women and ive seen how my husbands ex was very spitful and tried to take all of his money and refused to get a job even had the nerve to steal his truck, come into our home steal his grandfathers camera and some other belognings that WEREN'T HERS but because they were "common-law" partners the court went in her favor even though they were NEVER hers...he did get his truck back (which wasnt hers to beging with!)



most states have no-fault divorces and all assets are divided 50/50 regardless of circumstance, child custody is also determined by fit parents otherwise it usually goes 50/50 or whatever the divorcing couple can agree on

thus again, your view that courts are biased toward men is false


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

brat30 said:


> I dont have "sexual chats." so i dont appericate you assuming i do. He spied as a tool to Control all aspects of me that is why i beleive THAT its wrong its a form of control. No man or women has a right to control their partner. Everything should be Equal not just being married but when you Divorce EQUAL..! My husband knows I chat about NORMAL STUFF i dont talk about sex, people who sit there and talk about sex obviouly are losers who live in Mummys basment and play with themselfs lol I think cheating is only when its PHYSICAL...THATS WHAT IM STICKING TO...i'm sorry its Bitter Wives club day!



never said you in particular had sex chats, I was giving an example based on your claim that EA's don't exist and you even still wish to claim that cheating has to be purely physical. Which is fine if you and your husband agree to that. But the overwhelming majority of us would consider having sexual chats with other people cheating because that's what we have defined in our marriages.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

brat30 said:


> Im talking about when a man goes to get divorced from his wife she gets everything regurdless of the circumstances...Sin must be a women.


That’s not true at all. I know many women who are divorced. Not one of them got everything. The law does let them keep their half of the community assets. The man signed he marriage license which is a contract stating that they are each entitled to half of the community assets. What you are talking about here is a stereo type.




brat30 said:


> I am a women and ive seen how my husbands ex was very spitful and tried to take all of his money and refused to get a job even had the nerve to steal his truck, come into our home steal his grandfathers camera and some other belognings that WEREN'T HERS but because they were "common-law" partners the court went in her favor even though they were NEVER hers...he did get his truck back (which wasnt hers to beging with!)


Oh good grief, you only have his side of the story. Who knows that he did to her. Relationships are a two way street. You have no idea what really went on between the two of them.


I’ll give you an example. My ex-husband got rid of a lot of my belongings. They were expensive collectables. He hated them because he hated everything that was mine. He had a garage sale at his mother’s house and sold things for less than a penny on the dollar. I found out about this after the fact. He hid money, my money that I earned running a business, in his mother’s name.


When we got a divorce I was able to prove that he was hiding community assets. In the settlement he and his mother got to keep the money they stole from me. I got the house. My husband got a lot more than I did, there was more cash stolen then the equity in the house. But to this day he tells everyone who will listen about how I ripped him off in the divorce and too his house.
For all you know he did things, like maybe sold her valuables, so she took things in trade.

Since you speak badly of his ex, it’s clear that he speaks badly of her. I have little respect for anyone who speaks badly of their ex. Especially with the bitterness in which you express things about her. It tells me a lot about them and their emotional immaturity. Just remember that if and when the two of you break up… he will trash talk you in the same way as he trash talks her.


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## brat30 (Dec 7, 2011)

Well I think we have beat this subject dead, Emotial cheatting the ONLY way I could see it cheating is if two people had plans on meeting and they followed threw with it. I have great relationship with my current spouse, we talk openly, he and i both ocassinally chat (me more then him) But we have an agreement sex chats,(which i really am not into anyways but men can get very gross online) is Not happening) as far as cam sex its gross and not my thing. I think that when ur happy cheating isnt even an option but when somthing is missing thats when it happens.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

There's no use responding to the OP. She's obviously the only one here who knows what is really going on in all our lives. Not to mention she's obviously the only one who knows how to really spell.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

brat30 said:


> Well I think we have beat this subject dead, Emotial cheatting the ONLY way I could see it cheating is if two people had plans on meeting and they followed threw with it. I have great relationship with my current spouse, we talk openly, he and i both ocassinally chat (me more then him) But we have an agreement sex chats,(which i really am not into anyways but men can get very gross online) is Not happening) as far as cam sex its gross and not my thing. I think that when ur happy cheating isnt even an option but when somthing is missing thats when it happens.


There are some people who cheat regardless of the state of the marriage. They believe it is their right.


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## brat30 (Dec 7, 2011)

ACTUALLY i was there to see it (so its not based on what my husband said) i was there the weekend that she came in stole his stuff she even tried to have him charged with stalking dispite that he was in my town all weekend while she was loading our truck up with our stuff. so this isnt based on talking bad about her.


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## brat30 (Dec 7, 2011)

Hope No need for being rude, I don't know "your life." but you also don't know mine. I'm sorry if i have issues spelling and cannot be perfect like you, but the key logger can be used for bad too which is why it should be use as ive said SOOO many times ONLY for professinals and im done responding because all im getting is Bitter wives who seem to think that they have a right to break the law when it comes to their husbands! Im Finished with this subject. DONE!!!!!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

brat30 said:


> ACTUALLY i was there to see it (so its not based on what my husband said) i was there the weekend that she came in stole his stuff she even tried to have him charged with stalking dispite that he was in my town all weekend while she was loading our truck up with our stuff. so this isnt based on talking bad about her.


He was in the middle of a divorce or separation from a common law marriage situation...

Were you an owner on the title of the truck? If not it was not 'your' truck.

You do not know what went on in their life together. You were not there with him.


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## losing_hope (Dec 1, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> The law applies to computers that do not belong to the person. We have 5 computers in our home. They are community property. That means they all belong to me too. It is legal for me to but keystroke monitoring software on any computer I own.


No, this is incorrect. To put it simply: ownership of the computer does not give you ownership to the data that is contained within or is processed with the computer. 

Especially, if the data is protected with a password, as usually is the case with Windows user accounts, and always with email.

Just like it's your house, your bathroom, but you can't install a camera in the bathroom and videotape your friends using the bathroom. Or let's up the stakes - how about your husband installs a camera in your bathroom, without you knowing, and records it?

Think of a library. A user comes in, uses the computer to check his email. Does the library have ownership of the email?

Even in a business environment, if a employee checks their private email account from work, even if they have been forbidden to do so, the company still has no right to read the private emails. A lot of companies try to enforce that any data that is on their computers is theirs, which is a ridiculous position. 

Computer ownership and data ownership are two distinct issues. They have to be, since nowadays with "The Cloud" and all that, it may not be immediately obvious where your data is stored physically.


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## Darkhorse (Dec 3, 2011)

brat30 said:


> Hope No need for being rude, I don't know "your life." but you also don't know mine. I'm sorry if i have issues spelling and cannot be perfect like you, but the key logger can be used for bad too which is why it should be use as ive said SOOO many times ONLY for professinals and im done responding because all im getting is Bitter wives who seem to think that they have a right to break the law when it comes to their husbands! Im Finished with this subject. DONE!!!!!


A ton of husband/ex-husbands posted on here in favor of keyloggers as well.

I don't even know what one is. lol. But...it was not just wives.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

The penalties to pay for not snooping can be thousands of times greater than the penalties for snooping. Which makes the whole “is it legal” thing totally academic.


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## losing_hope (Dec 1, 2011)

AFEH said:


> The penalties to pay for not snooping can be thousands of times greater than the penalties for snooping. Which makes the whole “is it legal” thing totally academic.


So you've already decided that the person is guilty of something, and it's only a matter of finding it out. My point exactly.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

What is your opinion on cheating? Has your husband ever trolled the internet in search of women to talk to? Since you think it is not your business, I suppose it is ok. How would he feel if you trolled for a male friend to talk to. Bet he would be upset, that's how you two found each other, right. 

Why is your post so anti- women? Do you think women are the only ones who spy or the only ones who should not spy. 

This post and the one you posted on you marriage, makes me think this was written by a man who has been found out by his wife, chatting up a 20 yr old and nailed him good. 

Your spouse is not spying when you are engaging in deception, they are fact finding. It is cheating if you are emotionally engaged with someone other than your spouse. If you want to have warm friendships with people of the opposite sex outside of your marriage, get a divorce and have at it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

losing_hope said:


> So you've already decided that the person is guilty of something, and it's only a matter of finding it out. My point exactly.


It’s doubtful your naivety will outlive your marriage, the odds are against it. So enjoy it while it lasts.


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## Confused_and_bitter (Aug 6, 2011)

I have noticed OP's posts are all pretty much anti-women. In another posts she goes on about how society frowns upon older man/younger woman relationships but cheers on older woman/younger man. One thing I must point out after following this thread is that OP ironically met her now H via yahoo messenger as she posted so on her other thread, so I wonder if her ex may have been right to have suspicions about her "innocent online chats" but who am I to assume what happened in a complete strangers relationship, right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Confused_and_bitter (Aug 6, 2011)

And it's woman when referring to one woman not women!! Ok sorry had to say it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

As someone wrestling with a serious opportunity to cheat, I feel a lot more confident that I can get away with it knowing I have strong passwords protecting all my electronic communications.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

AFEH said:


> It’s doubtful your naivety will outlive your marriage, the odds are against it. So enjoy it while it lasts.


I'm sorry you've had a terrible experience with marriage. Really, I am.
But the fact of the matter is most spouses don't cheat.
If you choose treat your significant others as cheaters who just haven't been caught yet, that's your prerogative. I think that's corrosive to a relationship, but that's just me.
Still, do a favor and please don't condescend to those of us who don't believe spying is part of a normal, healthy marriage.

And, frankly, all the spying in the world isn't going to stop a person determined to cheat. It may catch them sooner, but that's after the fact. Rather than focus on spying, focus on creating a marital environment that's less susceptible to infidelity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> But the fact of the matter is most spouses don't cheat.


recent stats show that close to half do


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> focus on creating a marital environment that's less susceptible to infidelity.



it's almost as if you wish to say that the betrayed could have done something to make their spouse not cheat on them

I'm all for a good convo on setting boundaries and discussing them
but do understand that good chunk of people in the CWI forum had what they considered to be good marriages before they were cheated on.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> I'm sorry you've had a terrible experience with marriage. Really, I am.
> But the fact of the matter is most spouses don't cheat.
> *If you choose treat your significant others as cheaters who just haven't been caught yet, that's your prerogative. *I think that's corrosive to a relationship, but that's just me.
> Still, do a favor and please don't condescend to those of us who don't believe spying is part of a normal, healthy marriage.
> ...


Not even putting your words into my mouth as you attempt to do here makes your argument work. And you are still magnificently naïve and as I say long may it last.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> I'm sorry you've had a terrible experience with marriage. Really, I am.
> But the fact of the matter is most spouses don't cheat.
> If you choose treat your significant others as cheaters who just haven't been caught yet, that's your prerogative. I think that's corrosive to a relationship, but that's just me.
> Still, do a favor and please don't condescend to those of us who don't believe spying is part of a normal, healthy marriage.
> ...


Are you saying that people that focus on creating a marital environment that's less susceptible to infidelity don't get cheated on? 

You said less susceptible. So what about the person that is doing this, but there are a number of red flags that make that same wonderful spouse think that their partner is cheating? What should they do, to confirm or deny what they think is going on?


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> recent stats show that close to half do


1. Source?
2. Infidelity stats tend to be inherently unreliable because they rely on self-reporting and/or are compiled by people with 'skin in the game,' so to speak, i.e. those peddling books on how to prevent/recover from infidelity.
3. I can cite you figures from respected, independent researchers at the U. of Chicago and UC-Irvine that place the figure between 11 and 18 percent. Or a U. of Chicago study released this summer that puts the figure at 22 percent for men and 14 percent for women. (Sorry, can't link off my mobile, but you can find them if you look).

For those who've been cheated on and/or have visited this site, it must seem like everyone's cheating. Certainly there's a 'misery loves company' element to that. But the real, verifiable research out there says the great majority of spouses are faithful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Confused_and_bitter (Aug 6, 2011)

From my experience on the TAM forum I have not seen anyone suggest a key logger or other form of spying to someone in a happy healthy relationship, they have ONLY been suggested as a way of obtaining proof of infidelity because of actual red flags. Now for example if H and I get into an argument over doing the dishes an I post it on this site to vent/ask for opinions I'm about 110% sure they are not going to tell me to install key loggers and spy on my husband because it's a red flag that he is possibly cheating. If however my H starts being protective of his phone, closing out windows and deleting browser history, boots me off his Facebook, and not answering calls/texts(when it was never a problem before) then yes because these are major red flags they would suggest a key logger and other type of things so that I can verify if there is an affair which in a majority of these cases their is an affair in the works either an EA or a PA. 

When my H had his EA the communication was only face to face every other day and he would talk to her as often as he possibly could. I confronted him with my suspicions and was immidiately told I was "overreacting" and that he only spoke to her when he absolutely had to. I couldn't say otherwise because I had NO PROOF had I been able to obtain proof then this could have been nipped before they went out on their second "date" now mind you he even went as far as introducing me to the woman! The only reason I found out was because I got eyewitness accounts that he couldn't dispute.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> Are you saying that people that focus on creating a marital environment that's less susceptible to infidelity don't get cheated on?


Doesn't the phrase 'less susceptible' answer that question for you?




> You said less susceptible. So what about the person that is doing this, but there are a number of red flags that make that same wonderful spouse think that their partner is cheating? What should they do, to confirm or deny what they think is going on?


 If you spend some time reading the thread, you'll see that I've said many times investigating red flags is fine. I'm arguing against the notion that spying on one's spouse as a matter of routine is normal and expected (such as the posters who proclaim a spouse has no right or expectation of privacy).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> Doesn't the phrase 'less susceptible' answer that question for you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I never once said that and most of us in the CWI don't say that either, you're setting up a strawman


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> it's almost as if you wish to say that the betrayed could have done something to make their spouse not cheat on them


Maybe, maybe not. I'm sure there are many instances in which a betrayed spouse could have done nothing to prevent the cheating. Some people no doubt are married to self-centered jerks.
I suspect there are many more instances in which the cheating was a symptom of marital discord, not the cause. Most cheaters don't wake up one morning and say 'I'm going to go f--- someone else today just because.' It's a process that gets them to that point, and that process is far less likely to occur in a marriage in which both spouses needs are met.
Is this somehow a controversial stance? I thought it was fairly common sense.

This is in no way intended to justify cheating. There are many, many other appropriate ways to address marital unhappiness - up to and including divorce. Cheating is never OK, in my book.
But while it may be easier and less painful (and less introspective) for the BS to just label the cheater as an evil-doer, chances are it's not that simple. 



> I'm all for a good convo on setting boundaries and discussing them
> but do understand that good chunk of people in the CWI forum had what they considered to be good marriages before they were cheated on.


Sure, they may say that. I'd guess most even believe it. But that doesn't make it so. Just because one side or the other doesn't communicate their unhappiness - or does and it's ignored or misunderstood - doesn't mean the unhappiness wasn't there. What's sometimes labeled as 'rewritten history' may in fact be previously undisclosed or unseen or ignored issues. And I've seen my share of BS here who'll admit they were less than ideal partners.
Again, that's not said to justify, but to illustrate that infidelity doesn't always occur in a vacuum or out of the blue. It may just seem that way for couples who are poor at communicating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Almostrecovered said:


> I never once said that and most of us in the CWI don't say that either, you're setting up a *strawman*


He does it all the time.


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## Laurae1967 (May 10, 2011)

brat30 said:


> Cyber cheating, I've come acrossed a Post on here about a women who's husband has been found cheating on her online, acording to her he was caught on facebook in a realtionship with various women, dirty pictures and so on. So she decided to take it apone herself and instal a "Key Loger." a Key loger records EVERYTHING you type onto your pc, its a Massive invasion of ones privacy, whille it seems harmless to the person who is trying to find out if their spouse is cheating to the other person any information on their pc is recorded to the other person this is basically HACKING and Illegal. In my personal experince being one who has had a key loger on my pc you never get over the invasion, nor do you feel you can totally trust you partner and WHAT if your partner didn't do anything?? The TRUST is gone (between one or both of you) Some beleive if you chat with the oppsit sex its "emotinal cheatng", I personally beleive that you have to be PHYSICALLY with a person to be cheating along i think that somtimes you can get emotinally attached to a person online if you allow yourself. I think if the story had been diffrent (a women was caught cheating and the man had put the Key loger on her pc things would have been very diffrent, the man would be charged and either fined or inprinsoned and charged with some sort of crime and women all over this site would call him all sorts of names and not be sticking up for him like the women are for this women who has caught her husband not PHYSICALLY cheating but "cyber cheating." and hacking into his pc.. Would like to hear from others on your thoughts, if you have been a victem of a key logger, or hacking, etc I am NOT for cheating or anything i just think that two wrongs do NOT make a right!


I disagree with you on all points. Woof woof.


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## Darkhorse (Dec 3, 2011)

I spy on my husband when he's in the shower. I peek behind the shower curtain until he sees me then I run away giggling.


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## square1 (Oct 31, 2011)

Darkhorse said:


> I spy on my husband when he's in the shower. I peek behind the shower curtain until he sees me then I run away giggling.


You do this too? Now I can tell my husband I'm not the only perv doing it:smthumbup:


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> Doesn't the phrase 'less susceptible' answer that question for you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Privacy in your terms means secrets. There should be no secrets in a marriage, no closed chapters in our books. If you do have secrets then you will eventually lose your partner’s trust because you are going to deceive and lie in order to maintain your secrets.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> I never once said that and most of us in the CWI don't say that either, you're setting up a strawman


So you're suggesting there aren't posts in this thread stating (paraphrasing) that a spouse has no right or expectation of privacy? 
I suggest you re-read the thread.
Did you say it? I don't know. But given that the post to which you responded wasn't in reply to you nor did it mention, I'm not sure why you choose to believe I was writing about you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Confused_and_bitter (Aug 6, 2011)

How dare you spy on your husband in HIS shower!!!! LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Laurae1967 (May 10, 2011)

brat30 said:


> OKAY BUT see it from my eyes, you married to someone who is very selfish doesnt allow you any friends, you cannot talk to family, you are not allowed to even look people without verbal bashing from your husband, he is EXSTREAMLY jealous and when you talk to him about issues he goes into a mood and does whatever he can to make you feel like crap....then the internet comes around and now you have a sorce of way of communitcating with someone who isn't going to judge you (or obviouly many have) you don't have to fear for you life at that point then SUDDENLY your jealous husband finds a way to read everything you right (all totally innocent) but your husband is the type that twist and turn s words and totally insecure anyways he installs this stupid logger finds out you have been chatting with men and women and goes phycotic on his wife....or she goes phycotic on her husband and kills him (Put yourself in the eyes of a wife is has no other company but the computer she ISNT cheating just normal everyday chatting) but to the eyes of her jealous spouse he takes it as cheating even if shes chatting to a girl!


Ya know, not all issues are so black and white. People who use a key logger to control their spouses are wackos. The problem is not the key logger, it is the abusive, controlling husband. Big diff.

But most people who do a little digging on their spouse have done so because they have REASON to believe that their spouse is cheating. And a cheating spouse, when confronted, does not admit guilt 99% of the time.

If you aren't doing anything wrong, it shouldn't matter what your spouse sees. If you can't be transparent with your spouse, you have something to hide. And chatting with strange men on the 'net is inappropriate. And to think that only physical cheating is "cheating" is naive and just out of touch with how most married people think in a healthy relationship.

You also might want to do spellcheck on some of your posts. Just FYI.

Stop trying to justify your emotional affair. It won't solve the problem you have of being in an abusive marriage. Deal with that part head on. Having an EA online will not make your situation any better.


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## square1 (Oct 31, 2011)

Confused_and_bitter said:


> How dare you spy on your husband in HIS shower!!!! LOL
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know its wrong, he spanks me after for punishment but I don't learn from it cause I do it again and again...


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

AFEH said:


> He does it all the time.




Frank, get a grip. No one is advocating spying when there are no signs.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

square1 said:


> You do this too? Now I can tell my husband I'm not the only perv doing it:smthumbup:


You spy on her husband?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> *Is this somehow a controversial stance? I thought it was fairly common sense.
> *
> .


It is to me

You seem ignorant on infidelity so I'll educate you

the truth is that most cheaters have no intentions on cheating and are fine in their marriage and once they start cheating they will rewrite marital history and even demonize their spouse in order to justify their affair.

ask many of the reformed cheaters on here like sigma he'll agree 100% on this

now are there certain scumbags like serial cheaters? you bet, but the majority of cheating are from everyday folks who get caught up in the endorphins of an affair after a gradual increase of crossing new increasingly immoral boundary lines

someone had a post and I wish I could find it of how a typical EA with an old exboyfriend on facebook gets started, most affairs get started like that


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Privacy in your terms means secrets. There should be no secrets in a marriage, no closed chapters in our books. If you do have secrets then you will eventually lose your partner’s trust because you are going to deceive and lie in order to maintain your secrets.


Thanks for taking it upon yourself to re-define the meaning of words, but, no, I don't define privacy as keeping secrets. I define privacy as privacy. I define privacy as my wife having the freedom to email, call or speak to a friend or family member without being obligated to share the contents of those discussions with me. I define privacy as being able to text to a friend without feeling that every word I say will be reviewed by my wife.
Seriously, do you cc your significant other on all you texts and emails? Do you recount all the conversations you've had in a day? If that pair of jeans really does make her look fat, do you tell her?
If not, aren't you keeping secrets?
If what I think doesn't work for you, then by all means be a snoop.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

The spelling errors, lack of paragraphs, female bashing and general tone of superiority make me wonder who the OP really is and why anyone even bothers responding. But maybe that's just me.

As to the topic on hand - before my husband did what he did I would have agreed that installing a keylogger was something invasive and intrusive to him. Even the day before I found his emails and chats I would have said that. It's like having kids - don't EVER give advice to a parent if you don't have kids of your own. You'll come across as condescending and ignorant.


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## square1 (Oct 31, 2011)

Arnold said:


> You spy on her husband?


No silly my own in his bathroom ( we have 2 bathrooms we joke one is his and he can leave the toilet seat up in that one)


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Arnold said:


> Frank, get a grip. No one is advocating spying when there are no signs.


Well saying there's no such as privacy in a marriage sure sounds that way.
That said, no one is advocating not investigating red flags.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> That said, no one is advocating not investigating red flags.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



OP is


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Oh, and for the record - I don't review every word my husband emails or texts. I hardly ever bother any more. But if I wanted to I could because he gives me all his passwords and everything. But most waywards are not so forthcoming, and the betrayed often needs proof before they will act, and the only way to get proof is to spy. Cheaters are masters at deception. I also never did install a keylogger or use a VAR but I would in a heartbeat if I suspected anything now.


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

Our shower door glass is clear, we're into transparency! Love it when she presses her (oYo) against the glass!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> Thanks for taking it upon yourself to re-define the meaning of words, but, no, I don't define privacy as keeping secrets. I define privacy as privacy. I define privacy as my wife having the freedom to email, call or speak to a friend or family member without being obligated to share the contents of those discussions with me. I define privacy as being able to text to a friend without feeling that every word I say will be reviewed by my wife.
> Seriously, do you cc your significant other on all you texts and emails? Do you recount all the conversations you've had in a day? If that pair of jeans really does make her look fat, do you tell her?
> If not, aren't you keeping secrets?
> If what I think doesn't work for you, then by all means be a snoop.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Strawman. Again.

I do though wonder what the secrets are you are so desperate to keep from your wife with all your secrecy. But hey ho it’s your life and all that. But if your wife shows signs of insecurity in her marriage then think on all that privacy you so desperately want because that will more than likely be the cause. People who have nothing to hide never fear disclosure.

I find it quite funny in a strange way in that you have a very similar script to what some of the best cheaters have.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

As an independent I.T. consultant, this thread has been an interesting read.

There's a widespread internet notion that, "If the computer is co-owned by two individuals, (i.e. A husband and wife) then one of the two can install the software without the knowledge or consent of the other."

I noticed several people stating as much on this thread. 

But that's just not true everywhere. Joint property law does not trump privacy law in every state of the U.S. 

The following states have laws in place which under most circumstances prohibit the use of this genre of software on another adult without their knowledge or consent:

Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Iowa, Louisiana, Nevada, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Texas, Utah, Virginia and Washington.​
People (Mostly men so far) have actually gone to prison for installing this software on machines used by their spouse. Two men in Texas recently received four year prison sentences for installing surveillance software on their wives computers. One installed eBlaster and the other installed SpyRecon. These offenses were prosecuted as Class II felonies (!) 

Regardless of what state you live in, using this software to intercept the email of another adult, including your spouse, can be actionable both civilly and criminally under 18 U.S.C. Sec 2511, which clearly states that the interception of wire _and electronic _communications is illegal. 

Here is an excerpt from a handout I received (At a seminar on this subject) a couple of years ago. The context is family law and the author is a female attorney and computer expert:

"Clearly an attorney cannot threaten a criminal charge. However, we've seen the use of spyware used as a trump card time and again. Once the use of the spyware is proven, all the attorney needs to do is communicate that fact to the other side's counsel for the implications to be clear. Sometimes, this is done in the course of the deposition where the deponent will deny under oath having used the spyware, only to have the evidence shown to them. Likewise, if they take the Fifth, but the evidence is extant, it is clear to all what the risks are. To put it bluntly, cases in which the use of spyware can be proven tend to settle quickly."​
You have to understand how thoroughly the use of this software can poison your legal position if you do opt for divorce. Do you really want to hand a cheating spouse an opportunity on a silver platter to turn the tables and make you the "Bad guy?" Do you really want your cheating spouse to come after you in a civil action? 

Another indication of how much the legal climate has changed in the last few years is the position taken by the purveyors of this software.

SpectorSoft (Publisher of eBlaster and SpectorPro which IMO as an I.T person are two of the best.) used to promote the software as a tool to keep an eye on one's spouse.

Not anymore

The owner has openly stated that the federal government reviews his sales and the EULA states that SpectorSoft will cooperate with federal and local authorities in prosecutions arising from the illegal use of this software.

What are the two legal uses of this software?

_"Spectorsoft EXPRESSLY forbids the purchase or use of the Remote Install feature for any purpose other than *employers monitoring employees* or *parents monitoring their minor children*, and Spectorsoft will terminate the software license of any purchaser of the Remote Install feature if it believes that the software has been used for a purpose other than an employer monitoring an employee or a parent monitoring a child."_​
I'm not sure how it could be worded any clearer than this. Your spouse is neither an employee nor a minor child. If you're thinking of using this genre of software on your spouse, I really hope you will talk to your attorney first.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> the betrayed often needs proof before they will act



this the biggie that is being neglected

let's say your spouse shows some red flags (something is obviously wrong and they guard their phone and are late from work etc)

what options do you have?

option one-

talk to your spouse about your fears

seems reasonable, yes? Nope, a cheating spouse will lie and gaslight his or her way out of their trusting spouse's suspicious who desperately want to believe them. 

option two-

go into MC

also seemingly reasonable, yes?
No again, the cheating spouse will not confess to infidelity under therapy in almost all cases. In fact this option becomes dangerous as the cheater then uses the venue to air out their grievances when all the while the main problem is their affair and the whole process becomes increasingly abusive to the betrayed spouse who tries so hard to please someone who is not willing to be honest and try to work on a marriage they are no longer interested in.

option three-

file for divorce
well the only reason this will work is that it may actually snap the cheater out of their fog if they want to stay married. But the reality is very few people will ever do this without substantial proof. Like most of us, we want to trust our spouse and will go to great lengths in fooling ourselves about the reality of what's actually going on. 

IOW- we need proof in order to make an informed decision

so it comes down to either waiting for them to slip up (a really bad option) or spying and verifying what you already suspect (or ruling it out)


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

AFEH said:


> I do though wonder what the secrets are you are so desperate to keep from your wife with all your secrecy. But hey ho it’s your life and all that. But if your wife shows signs of insecurity in her marriage then think on all that privacy you so desperately want because that will more than likely be the cause. People who have nothing to hide never fear disclosure.
> 
> I find it quite funny in a strange way in that you have a very similar script to what some of the best cheaters have.


Tee-hee. Speaking of straw men.

Stop pretending you know me or anything about me.
My wife is free to see my emails, texts, phone logs, etc. anytime she asks.
But the key point is asking and receiving permission. It's not expected, demanded or required. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> I'm all for investigating red flags, but I don't believe marriage strips a person of any and all privacy. I trust the people I've chosen to allow into my life until they give me reason to distrust them. I don't waste my time looking for reasons to distrust them. That, IMO, would be an awful way to live.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Frank, I think you've made many excellent points despite being in the minority. I debate this issue with my with wife often and we agree to disagree. Our MC had the opinion that snooping secretly on ones spouse is dishonest eventhough the motive seems righteous.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Bad News said:


> Frank, I think you've made many excellent points despite being in the minority. I debate this issue with my with wife often and we agree to disagree. Our MC had the opinion that snooping secretly on ones spouse is dishonest eventhough the motive seems righteous.



to me it's a necessary evil

read my previous post to this and tell me honestly what one should do if they have serious indications that their spouse is cheating?


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

ocotillo said:


> You have to understand how thoroughly the use of this software can poison your legal position if you do opt for divorce. Do you really want to hand a cheating spouse an opportunity on a silver platter to turn the tables and make you the "Bad guy?" Do you really want your cheating spouse to come after you in a civil action?


I thought divorce was no fault in my state. Does this change it back to good guy/bad guy? Cheat on you, divorce you and then sue you to top if off. That would take a very special ex


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## losing_hope (Dec 1, 2011)

ocotillo said:


> As an independent I.T. consultant, this thread has been an interesting read.


I work in IT also, and I agree with your post 100%. Also, it's probably good to remind that it may not be up to your spouse whether they'll press charges. So even if they cheated, and they want to settle and be done with it, the DA might not see it like that.

Of course, your mileage may vary. But no matter how right you are morally, at best you are on legal grey area. 

Also, as a side note, I always find it funny when posters proclaim loudly "I have nothing to hide." And they post behind a pseudonym.


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## losing_hope (Dec 1, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> option two-
> 
> go into MC


If you're looking into spying on your spouse, any way it ends you're going to need counseling. Either marriage or personal.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

losing_hope said:


> If you're looking into spying on your spouse, any way it ends you're going to need counseling. Either marriage or personal.



which is fine, but going to MC while an affair is ongoing is very detrimental imo


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## losing_hope (Dec 1, 2011)

Bad News said:


> Our shower door glass is clear, we're into transparency! Love it when she presses her (oYo) against the glass!


Since you're into transparency, you also love it when she squeezes a big #2 out? Nice.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

While I was out:
"Texas court has ruled that a husband accused of monitoring his wife's computer through a keystroke logger did not violate federal wiretapping laws.

Larry Bagley was sued in June by his wife Rhea Bagley, who accused him of surreptitiously placing audio recording devices in their house as well as a software keystroke logger. The Bagleys are in the process of divorcing.

U.S. District Judge Lee Rosenthal ruled on October 18 in favor of the husband, saying that the court was required to follow a Fifth Circuit decision saying that the federal wiretap law known as Title III does not apply to marital relationships."

Even if this is not the case in your state, this may give you cause to appeal of your conviction


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

losing_hope said:


> you also love it when she squeezes a big #2 out? Nice.


That's gross, is this the punishment for attempting humor?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Anyone else think the OP is a troll?


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## joe kidd (Feb 8, 2011)

As far as a case against me for for snooping would go, " Your honor, I installed the keylogger to monitor my daughter online. A lot of weirdos out there and I fear for her safety, I regret that I forgot to tell my wife that it was installed". Sounds good to me anyway.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> Tee-hee. Speaking of straw men.
> 
> Stop pretending you know me or anything about me.
> My wife is free to see my emails, texts, phone logs, etc. anytime she asks.
> ...


But if your emails etc. are password protected, does she have your passwords so she can see them at any time? But seeing as she has to ask your permission then you still have secrets, stuff you are withholding from your wife because you don’t want her to see them.

If she has your passwords then you have no privacy which is how things should be in a marriage. And if that is indeed the case then you’ve been chasing your own tail all the way through the thread.


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## themightypenguin (Dec 5, 2011)

I haven't read all the replies in this thread, but I want to throw my two cents in. 

First, no one has a right to know if they were cheated on or anything else for that matter. It's unfortunate, but life is unfair. Marriage doesn't equal ownership, or justify spying. Marriage is also a choice. It's a choice to get married, stay married, or leave a marriage. 

Each relationship is different and some couples may choose to be completely open while others keep something for themselves. As a human being you should be allowed some amount of privacy.

What if my wife told me she wasn't in love me with me anymore? We talk. We have an open conversation about what's next. If you're attempting to work things out and spy on her I think that'll push her completely out of the relationship. If you feel the only way to resolve the issue is to read every single email/post/etc then you should probably take some time to yourself and decide if the relationship is worth continuing. If it is don't spy. If it isn't leave the relationship. 

I know the ideal is that marriage is forever. Unfortunately, the world isn't ideal. People change. The world changes. Nothing, nothing, is permanent. We age. Relationships get better or worse. Enjoy the good times and remember them fondly when they're gone. 

My advice to people getting married would be not to expect to control your spouse. Accept them love them while the opportunity is there. If they do something horrible and disgusting like cheating then that is on them. It hurts. Emotional pain and struggle is a part of life. It's what makes love and happiness and generosity so incredible!

Be the best person you can be. Be honest with your spouse about what you won't tolerate when necessary and move on if/when the time comes. Don't lower yourself to their level of manipulation and dishonesty. Let's try to keep some dignity and honor. Let's let people make mistakes and give them the opportunity to learn from them. If they don't then it's up to you to be strong and make changes in your life. 

I don't suggest anyone tolerate cheating or abusive relationships. Just treat your spouses with respect, and if they can't do the same for you leave. 

The only way to make a man trustworthy is to trust him. ~Henry L. Stimson

EDIT:
And for the record I had a girl I loved dearly seemingly destroy my life some years ago. In retrospect it was probably the single greatest learning experience of my life. As miserable as I was I'm glad it happened.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> Thanks for taking it upon yourself to re-define the meaning of words, but, no, I don't define privacy as keeping secrets. I define privacy as privacy. I define privacy as my wife having the freedom to email, call or speak to a friend or family member without being obligated to share the contents of those discussions with me. I define privacy as being able to text to a friend without feeling that every word I say will be reviewed by my wife.
> Seriously, do you cc your significant other on all you texts and emails? Do you recount all the conversations you've had in a day? If that pair of jeans really does make her look fat, do you tell her?
> If not, aren't you keeping secrets?
> If what I think doesn't work for you, then by all means be a snoop.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I completely disagree with you!! Sharing with your spouse is in NO WAY taking anything away from you!! IMO your spouse should be held in higher regard than any friend and you should WANT to share your communications with them!! The point is you should not feel like it's an obligation to share with your spouse. Is it an obligation for her to have sex with you?!?!? You have intentionally created an extremely unique relationship with your spouse. And to speak frankly why wouldn't you want to share all communications with your spouse unless you are trying to hide something from them. 

Therefore, it is only logical for the other spouse to want to find out what you are hiding...Will it hurt them....Will it hurt the marriage...Do they need to start protecting themselves legally and preparing for battle?!?!?!? These things are just a necessity to know. Snooping is just an extension of your gut feelings and just wanting to have actual proof of what you already think is going on. If the snooper is wrong then at least everything is out in the open and the issue can then be discussed. If the snooper is right, then they have the evidence they need to confront the other spouse.

Frankly (no pun intended) IMO I don't see the harm either way for snooping if the other spouse has nothing to hide! Obviously, they are behaving oddly or at the very least in a manner that is making their partner suspicious. 

My question to you is why wouldn't you WANT to share with your spouse and why do you deem it an OBLIGATION?


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> While I was out:
> "Texas court has ruled that a husband accused of monitoring his wife's computer through a keystroke logger did not violate federal wiretapping laws.


If I'm not mistaken, this was a case involving vicarious consent


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

themightypenguin said:


> I haven't read all the replies in this thread, but I want to throw my two cents in.
> 
> *First, no one has a right to know if they were cheated on or anything else for that matter. * It's unfortunate, but life is unfair. Marriage doesn't equal ownership, or justify spying. Marriage is also a choice. It's a choice to get married, stay married, or leave a marriage.
> 
> ...


You cannot be serious :rofl::lol: :rofl: :lol:


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

Bad News said:


> Frank, I think you've made many excellent points despite being in the minority. I debate this issue with my with wife often and we agree to disagree. Our MC had the opinion that snooping secretly on ones spouse is dishonest eventhough the motive seems righteous.


We most certainly do argue about this issue!!! And NOPE we do not agree to disagree!!! This issue has been a thorn in our side for quite some time! Bad News is a closed off and sometimes sneaky person. (with that said I still adore him) He will admit to being sneaky it is a part of his personality. I unlike you and Frank DO deem the scream for privacy the same as the desire to keep secrets. To be truly intimately close to someone you need to share yourself with that person...In fact you should share MORE with that person than you would anyone else. Although Bad News disagrees vehemently, IMO the wedding vows/ceremony do unite you as one...ie the unity candle... and bringing these two together as one!! You obviously are an individual and you do your own things, HOWEVER you share those things with the other person...you connect yourself to them!!! Honestly I believe that that is the real reason why so many people don't understand the meaning of emotional connection and can't comprehend joining WITH someone rather than losing themselves TO someone).

BTW MC backed down from calling it outright dishonesty if you recall!!! 

p.s. guess we have something to talk about for date night sweetie!!!


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

Almostrecovered said:


> to me it's a necessary evil
> 
> read my previous post to this and tell me honestly what one should do if they have serious indications that their spouse is cheating?


:iagree::iagree::iagree: or at the very least that something isn't right!!!


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

2sick said:


> IMO you spouse should be held in higher regard than any friend and should WANT to share your communications with them!! The point is you should not feel like it's an obligation to share with your spouse. Is is an obligation for her to have sex with you?!?!? You have intentionally created an extremely unique relationship with your spouse. And to speak frankly why wouldn't you want to share all communications with your spouse unless you are trying to hide something from them.


Well said. Sharing one's electronic communications with one's spouse generates trust and can help a couple work together protecting their marriage. Temptation affects everyone. Having secret outside communications only adds to that temptation.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

themightypenguin said:


> I haven't read all the replies in this thread, but I want to throw my two cents in.
> 
> First, no one has a right to know if they were cheated on or anything else for that matter. It's unfortunate, but life is unfair. Marriage doesn't equal ownership, or justify spying. Marriage is also a choice. It's a choice to get married, stay married, or leave a marriage.
> 
> ...


Sounds like the aforementioned girl mayhave destroyed some brain cells, as well. Ever heard of STDs?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

> First, no one has a right to know if they were cheated on or anything else for that matter.


Well, I can maybe see where you are going, the "right to know" is sort of fictitious... but moot, because everyone has not only the "right to find out", but it is their duty to themself, their marriage and their entire family to exercise this right. There is nothing wrong with a more casual relationship, however misleading, lying, deceiving and manipulating are all universally wrong in a loving marriage. All commited relationships require and deserve a certain amount of vigilence.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Well said. Sharing one's electronic communications with one's spouse generates trust and can help a couple work together protecting their marriage. Temptation affects everyone. Having secret outside communications only adds to that temptation.


Sigh ... more with "secrets." So scary and nefarious.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I'm pretty certain my failure to make my wife privy to the "secret" texts I exchange with my friend about a ball game we're watching from our respective homes leads me into temptation. Nor do I think my wife is apt to cheat on me because I don't avail myself to her inbox to find out about her "secret" discussions with her cousin about what Xmas gifts to buy her kids. 
I'd certainly allow her to look if she asks, and I'd expect the same response from her. But it's not my "right" to know everything she says, writes or thinks. 
If you feel your marriage needs protection from such "secrets," that's your right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Darkhorse (Dec 3, 2011)

The people who think spouses don't have the right to know about being cheated on are probably cheaters themselves.

What a load.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

It's wrong to know you're getting cheated on, ya'll!


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> It's wrong to know you're getting cheated on, ya'll!


Well that explains EVERYTHING. People here are so SMRT.


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## Confused_and_bitter (Aug 6, 2011)

Well now that I know that I don't have the right to know that I'm being cheated on I'll make sure to tell the H so he can go get him some strange since I HIS wife have NO RIGHT to know if he is running around banging women left and right maybe if I'm lucky enough he will give me an STD for Xmas or even my birthday! Oh what a treat! And you know what since the right to not know flows both ways I think I'll run out and have a little fun with the mailman and a random bartender! Or maybe we can all live together in one giant compound a la Sister Wives yet I'll believe my H when he tells me they are really good friends that he likes to help out. But what about those kids that look like him? Oh that's simple they are from OW's past relationships because after all I don't have te right to know!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Confused_and_bitter said:


> Well now that I know that I don't have the right to know that I'm being cheated on I'll make sure to tell the H so he can go get him some strange since I HIS wife have NO RIGHT to know if he is running around banging women left and right maybe if I'm lucky enough he will give me an STD for Xmas or even my birthday! Oh what a treat!



I`m pretty sure you don`t have the right to know he gave you an STD either because then you`d have found out that he was cheating and that would be the equivalent of spying so...nope you just have to live with whatever nasty bug he gave you.

That is of course if it`s one you can live with.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

I spied on my grandma. She was up to no good.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> Spying is not cheating. Spying is a spouse protecting the marriage and frankly looking out for thier spouse. Transparency solves this.
> 
> An EA is a chemical thing. Oxytocin and dopamine. It is an addiction. One has to go through withdrawal to get past it. I speak from experience.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

people use keyloggers to find the truth of what is really goin on


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## losing_hope (Dec 1, 2011)

Bad News said:


> That's gross, is this the punishment for attempting humor?


So maybe there are things that should be kept in private?


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## losing_hope (Dec 1, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Having secrets at all is breaking trust.


So I assume the right thing to do immediately after installing a keylogger is to tell your spouse about it then. Because otherwise, aren't you breaking the trust?


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

losing_hope said:


> So I assume the right thing to do immediately after installing a keylogger is to tell your spouse about it then. Because otherwise, aren't you breaking the trust?


Well played.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> Sigh ... more with "secrets." So scary and nefarious.
> 
> Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I'm pretty certain my failure to make my wife privy to the "secret" texts I exchange with my friend about a ball game we're watching from our respective homes leads me into temptation. Nor do I think my wife is apt to cheat on me because I don't avail myself to her inbox to find out about her "secret" discussions with her cousin about what Xmas gifts to buy her kids.
> I'd certainly allow her to look if she asks, and I'd expect the same response from her. But it's not my "right" to know everything she says, writes or thinks.
> ...


Who gives a crap about secrets. It's cheating that pisses folks off.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

losing_hope said:


> So I assume the right thing to do immediately after installing a keylogger is to tell your spouse about it then. Because otherwise, aren't you breaking the trust?


Actually, when I snoop I DO inform hubby...after I snoop so nothing can be erased before hand!!!:smthumbup: And YUP it works!!!! Albeit nothing insidious was going on but definitely concerning!! We were then able to talk about it and clear the air. So again IMO snooping isn't wrong...YOU ACTUALLY FIND OUT WHAT'S GOING ON!!! Frankly, as long as things are going smoothly, no unusual changes in personality and we are communicating openly and honestly with each other, I don't feel the need to have to snoop. I'm sure that most of us snoopers feel that way ...sooo for those who are the snooped upon , try to just openly and honestly communicate and comfortably share with your spouses, then snooping and key logging probably won't be necessary ( meaning act trustworthy then you will earn TRUST!!!!)


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Arnold said:


> I spied on my grandma. She was up to no good.


send her depends to the lab for semen analysis


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Darkhorse said:


> The people who think spouses don't have the right to know about being cheated on are probably cheaters themselves.
> 
> What a load.


They may or may not be cheaters now but they are reserving the right to get away with it in the future, whether they realize this or not.

There is no marriage that will never face challenges and the temptation to form an intimate emotional connection with an outsider is one of the biggest challenges any marriage will face. I can speak from direct experience that knowing your privacy is secure plays a big part in convincing yourself you can get away with it, no one will know, no one will get hurt. A lot of people I talk to think this is OK, especially when you can blame your spouse for something they did or didn't do. I wrestle with this every day and if I knew my wife was reading my personal communications I would feel less enabled


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

2sick said:


> Actually, when I snoop I DO inform hubby...after I snoop so nothing can be erased before hand!!!:smthumbup: And YUP it works!!!! Albeit nothing insidious was going on but definitely concerning!! We were then able to talk about it and clear the air. So again IMO snooping isn't wrong...YOU ACTUALLY FIND OUT WHAT'S GOING ON!!! Frankly, as long as things are going smoothly, no unusual changes in personality and we are communicating openly and honestly with each other, I don't feel the need to have to snoop. I'm sure that most of us snoopers feel that way ...sooo for those who are the snooped upon , try to just openly and honestly communicate and comfortably share with your spouses, then snooping and key logging probably won't be necessary ( meaning act trustworthy then you will earn TRUST!!!!)


Well said. Knowing that one's spouse can observe what one says and does is a major deterrent to all kinds of infidelity. Many people don't even recognize the little slides downhill that go on long before things blow up in their face. My advice is to see it as soon as it happens, bring it up immediately and take affirmative action, which may be as simple as a conversation. I know in my marriage, major disrespectful outbursts or defiant initiatives from my wife always correlate to communication with outsiders. I wish I could address this directly like you describe, but in my case, I keep what I observe in mind as I try to work around sensitive issues in a considerate and loving manner.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> They may or may not be cheaters now but they are reserving the right to get away with it in the future, whether they realize this or not.
> 
> There is no marriage that will never face challenges and the temptation to form an intimate emotional connection with an outsider is one of the biggest challenges any marriage will face. I can speak from direct experience that knowing your privacy is secure plays a big part in convincing yourself you can get away with it, no one will know, no one will get hurt. A lot of people I talk to think this is OK, especially when you can blame your spouse for something they did or didn't do. I wrestle with this every day and if I knew my wife was reading my personal communications I would feel less enabled


If you really wanted to cheat and your wife has access to all your passwords, etc. You would just create secret email accounts, facebook accounts, etc. and have a secret phone or whatever. 

Just because your spouse may think you are being transparent, doesn't mean you are.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Well said. Knowing that one's spouse can observe what one says and does is a major deterrent to all kinds of infidelity. Many people don't even recognize the little slides downhill that go on long before things blow up in their face. My advice is to see it as soon as it happens, bring it up immediately and take affirmative action, which may be as simple as a conversation. I know in my marriage, major disrespectful outbursts or defiant initiatives from my wife always correlate to communication with outsiders. I wish I could address this directly like you describe, but in my case, I keep what I observe in mind as I try to work around sensitive issues in a considerate and loving manner.


LOL!!! Believe it or not NOT BLOWING UP is a learned behavior!!! My h has been on the receiving in of some quite disrespectful outburst!! Instead of shutting down (which is the easy way out) try and work through the outbursts. It takes A LOT of time but it is really worth it! If she is like me, the outbursts are because she was so unbelievably hurt by what you either did or said or didn't do or say! She actually probably wants to talk it out but I'm sure all sorts of buttons are being pushed on both ends! Be patient and good luck TALKING!!!


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Just because you marry a man/woman it does not make them your property or your children. You don't have the "right" to spy on spouse. If you have to spy constantly you either are very insecure or you chose poorly. The truth will come out eventually.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I didn't "choose poorly" as you put it Sanity and no the truth does not always come out eventually- people cheat and get away with it and stay married all the time

and I resent people trying to imply you simply can sniff out cheaters while dating or having a certain type of relationship or being a certain type of spouse will prevent cheating

it's simply not the case, read CWI, you see the same stories happening over and over again

now I agree my wife isn't my property and I am very aware that I can't control her. BUT I certainly can make informed decisions based on what choices she makes if she chooses to cheat again.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Sanity said:


> Just because you marry a man/woman it does not make them your property or your children. You don't have the "right" to spy on spouse. If you have to spy constantly you either are very insecure or you chose poorly. The truth will come out eventually.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Typically, I would not spy on my property. I set up surveillance on my golf clubs, once, and watching the tape was boring. They just sat there, in my bag. But, deep down, i know they are unfatihful. It is just a matter of time.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> I didn't "choose poorly" as you put it Sanity and no the truth does not always come out eventually- people cheat and get away with it and stay married all the time
> 
> and I resent people trying to imply you simply can sniff out cheaters while dating or having a certain type of relationship or being a certain type of spouse will prevent cheating
> 
> ...


My point is that if you are getting to the point where you have to spy AND you are a emotionally secure individual, then YES you chose poorly. Its nothing against you. We are human and make mistakes. I personally choose poory because my exw was a jealous, controlling monster who decided it was ok to check my phone, email constantly. 

Having said this, if you do come across some information that leads to infidelity then act on it. My problem is the constant violation of boundries. If I have to keep checking on my partner, its just not worth it. Move on with somebody more trustworthly. Cheaters will slip up and will get caught. Life is too too short to worry about where your partner puts their genitals all the time.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Arnold said:


> Typically, I would not spy on my property. I set up surveillance on my golf clubs, once, and watching the tape was boring. They just sat there, in my bag. But, deep down, i know they are unfatihful. It is just a matter of time.


Then your golf clubs are not worth it my friend. Time to trade them in and go to your nearest golf shop and replace them.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Sanity said:


> My point is that if you are getting to the point where you have to spy AND you are a emotionally secure individual, then YES you chose poorly. Its nothing against you. We are human and make mistakes. I personally choose poory because my exw was a jealous, controlling monster who decided it was ok to check my phone, email constantly.
> 
> Having said this, if you do come across some information that leads to infidelity then act on it. My problem is the constant violation of boundries. If I have to keep checking on my partner, its just not worth it. Move on with somebody more trustworthly. Cheaters will slip up and will get caught. Life is too too short to worry about where your partner puts their genitals all the time.



well good for you for being so strong of a person to leave at the first sign of infidelity

however, most people are in shock and denial about it when it happens

and no not every cheater slips up and gets caught, some affairs can last for years before suddenly a divorce request gets handed to the betrayed and in some cases they don't know why


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Sanity said:


> Then your golf clubs are not worth it my friend. Time to trade them in and go to your nearest golf shop and replace them.


I am setting a trap for them, first.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> Sigh ... more with "secrets." So scary and nefarious.
> 
> Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I'm pretty certain my failure to make my wife privy to the "secret" texts I exchange with my friend about a ball game we're watching from our respective homes leads me into temptation. Nor do I think my wife is apt to cheat on me because I don't avail myself to her inbox to find out about her "secret" discussions with her cousin about what Xmas gifts to buy her kids.
> I'd certainly allow her to look if she asks, and I'd expect the same response from her. But it's not my "right" to know everything she says, writes or thinks.
> ...


That's a nice straw man you have there, Frank.

In the examples you cite, while your wife may not be interested in the text conversation you have with your friend during the game, would you be opposed to telling her about it if she asked? That's where the difference lies. Transparency does not mean that you MUST share every conversation with one another, but that you are willing to do so if your partner asks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## madwoman (Oct 20, 2011)

yeah, when you innocently get on the computer to send an email, and he left his email open to his dating profile that talks about what he wants in a sexual encounter to some $lut, tell me its wrong! get real! Frankly I dont care what you think...... Ever heard of aids? Ive been through two loved ones dying from it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

madwoman said:


> Ever heard of aids? Ive been through two loved ones dying from it!


That's a sobering thought.

I hope it's been clear that the things I've said on this thread have only been to let people know what they're potentially getting into, since there is a boat-load of misinformation on this subject floating around on the internet. 

Another software disclaimer:











--But I do understand that sometimes a person "Has to do what they have to do" as the saying goes.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Yes. Installing a key logger does violate laws. I completely understand why people would be pushed to spy on their spouses but it does not make it right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

glad you can live in a world of black and white

If I did I wouldn't have saved my marriage, so I will gladly step into the gray when it's warranted or provoked


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Almost,

Not sure why you insist on describing my thought process in a "black and white" manner. Life isn't black and white but from my experience most people do not appreciate being spyed on regardless of reason. It truly is a violation of trust and boundaries. And just to give you some background ived been cheated on and only found out after we broke up. I felt terrible and angry but honestly life is too short to police another persons genitals. We are all grown adults and I don't need to be your daddy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Sanity said:


> Yes. Installing a key logger does violate laws. I completely understand why people would be pushed to spy on their spouses but it does not make it right.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly how do you expect a betrayed spouse can find out about suspected cheating? Unless one is really mentally ill, seldom does a person just start suspecting for n oreason
In fact, if anything, the vast majority of BSs seem to give way too much benefit of the doubt to cheaters, often accepting incredible lies before , finally, going the investigation route.
When i posted the facts of my XW's forays on a site, folks were , actuall, quite incredulous that i would have any doubt whatsoever. In fact, I was ridiculed for being so trusting.
had I not retained a PI, I would have never found the truth.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Arnold,

How did the PI find out?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

What was the evidence?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## losing_hope (Dec 1, 2011)

Fine, so forget about little technicality like snooping being illegal, it also makes you fat!

Snooping on people is making you fat - TODAY Health - TODAY.com


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Sanity said:


> Arnold,
> 
> How did the PI find out?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Simply followed her on one of her alleged legitimate nights out. He did this a few times to make sure.
Then , he simply found the name of the house owner(her ex boyfriend from HS),
Here was how the coup de gras was delivered. She came in at 7 in the morning claiming to have been at her friend Jody's( a girlfriend), having fallen asleep on her couch while watching a movie. She could not locate her wallet and asked me "Arnold, have you seen my wallet"
I asked if she had been anywhere other than Jody's where she could have lost it. She was emphatic that she had not.
So , I inquired "How about 7039 3RD AVE SOUTH, in Richfiedl? Think it might be there?

Initially, she was a deer in the headlights. Then, she came to her senses and started to launch the anger/indignation over having been followed.
Within three months , she moved in with the guy and she was no longer my problem. Thye were at each others' throats within a year.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

I should add that leading up to this, I had documented all types of nights out until the wee hours. I had found sexy lingerie in her backpack, inadvertently. I had received credit card charges from taverns no where near where she claimed to be on nights out. Her phone bill started going to over $250 a month(i paid for this) etc.
So, Sanity, it was not a case of my deciding out of the blue to look into my wife's activities. In fact, I held off way too long.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Grayson said:


> That's a nice straw man you have there, Frank.
> 
> In the examples you cite, while your wife may not be interested in the text conversation you have with your friend during the game, would you be opposed to telling her about it if she asked? That's where the difference lies. Transparency does not mean that you MUST share every conversation with one another, but that you are willing to do so if your partner asks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow, speaking of straw men ... This thread isn't about transparency. It's about spying. Check out the thread title if you don't believe me.
You've changed the subject and then accuse me of a straw man? 
Being against spying is not the same as being against transparency, try as you might to paint it that way.

To answer your question, sure I'd let my wife read my stupid texts if she wished. But she'd ask and I'd permit. That's NOT spying. Spying by its nature is something done without permission or authority. Contrary to some prevailing widsom in this thread, a wedding license does not grant the "right" to access another's private communications.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

That is the way it is supposed to work. You ask your spouse to see their texts, email, Facebook, etc. 

When they refuse, this is a red flag. This is when spying usually starts. For good reason.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## scione (Jul 11, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> To answer your question, sure I'd let my wife read my stupid texts if she wished. But she'd ask and I'd permit. That's NOT spying. Spying by its nature is something done without permission or authority. Contrary to some prevailing widsom in this thread, a wedding license does not grant the "right" to access another's private communications.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wedding license grants ownership of all your possessions. So, if your wife feels like reading your cell phone without your permission, she can do it without asking you because the phone is also hers. There is no such thing as spying when you are married.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> Wow, speaking of straw men ... This thread isn't about transparency. It's about spying. Check out the thread title if you don't believe me.
> You've changed the subject and then accuse me of a straw man?
> Being against spying is not the same as being against transparency, try as you might to paint it that way.
> 
> ...


Actually, you made the shift, by building the straw man and focusing on the nature of your messages and why your wife "wouldn't be interested."

But, let's talk specifically about "spying," if you want to (and will) contain the focus to that topic. No one that I've seen here has suggested that it be a default condition when there are no red flags to warrant it. If there are red flags that one's spouse is cheating, how, exactly, would you suggest that one ascertain the truth of the matter? Ask them? Do you honestly think that most cheating spouses, if asked, will say, "Yep...I sure am cheating on you. Pretty cool, huh?"

I recall that, within the past year or so, there was a story on both Nightline and Good Morning America about a wife attempting to file criminal charges against her stbxh for confirming her cheating via accessing her email on a family computer. I keep meaning to see if I can track down more information on that case.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

scione said:


> Wedding license grants ownership of all your possessions. So, if your wife feels like reading your cell phone without your permission, she can do it without asking you because the phone is also hers. There is no such thing as spying when you are married.


That is completely untrue and has been explained at length on this thread.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

ocotillo said:


> That's a sobering thought.
> 
> I hope it's been clear that the things I've said on this thread have only been to let people know what they're potentially getting into, since there is a boat-load of misinformation on this subject floating around on the internet.
> 
> ...


Exactly. Any other posit is puerile.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

scione said:


> Wedding license grants ownership of all your possessions. So, if your wife feels like reading your cell phone without your permission, she can do it without asking you because the phone is also hers. There is no such thing as spying when you are married.


Where did you get your law degree? I suggest you ask for a refund.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## themightypenguin (Dec 5, 2011)

Haven't been on in a few days. Apparently people think I'm crazy for my belief that you don't really have a right to know if you've been cheated on. The only right you have is to discontinue the relationship if it no longer meets your needs, IMHO. 

Is it wrong to cheat? Yes. If I found out my SO was cheating I would leave without a second thought. If I was suspicious I would ask her. If our relationship is heading in the wrong direction do I go crazy and spy on her every second possible? No. 

I would talk to her. Make my concerns known and then look in the mirror. What can *I* do to make the situation/relationship better? 

I just try to be the best person/spouse I can be and if that isn't good enough I will move on. If you choose to spend some portion of your life spying and agonizing over facebook posts and text messages I think you've missed the point. If you are suspicious ask. If they don't understand your concern and won't clear things up then you have a problem. Do you trust your SO or not? Do you stay or do you go? Do you go crazy spying and make your spouse feel like the only time they can relax is _away from you?_ 

Bottom line, cheating is wrong. It hurts. I won't tolerate it. I do, however, choose to trust my spouse and treat her like an adult when I have concerns about our relationship. 

I believe cheating is a symptom not a cause. Either the relationship is broken and/or one/both of the people are broken. Fix it, or don't fix it and move on. Continue living life as a victim and justify making yourself miserable so you can prove how right you are! That'll show 'em! When you're old and youth is long gone I'm sure you'll be glad you spent it policing your spouse's life.

And, for the record I am familiar with STD's. I am also familiar with condoms. 

I love my girl. Can I say with 100% keylogging certainty that she has never cheated? No. I trust her. I know she's familiar with safe sex should she decide to cheat. I know she loves me. I know we both work hard to make our relationship work and ourselves, individually, better people. We still fight. I still get jealous, and think what if. I understand these are normal human emotions and if they persist we make changes. We all make mistakes and sometimes just knowing the love is still there and the other person is willing to work too is enough.

Sorry about the long post. Thought I'd try to explain my opinions a little better. I don't think there is one true answer to any of this, and some people just get f*cked over by a spouse gone bad. Betrayal sucks and does happen, but if you live your life like a wounded animal it's never going to be much fun.


_You must be the change you want to see in the world.
Mahatma Gandhi_


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## scione (Jul 11, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> Where did you get your law degree? I suggest you ask for a refund.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I got my Bachelor's from MIT, Master's from Yale, and Doctorate from Harvard University. I'll try to get my refund tomorrow. Any other questions?


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

scione said:


> I got my Bachelor's from MIT, Master's from Yale, and Doctorate from Harvard University. I'll try to get my refund tomorrow. Any other questions?


Why yes, I do have a question. How does one as educated as you claim to be come up with such a ridiculous legal theory?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## scione (Jul 11, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> Why yes, I do have a question. How does one as educated as you claim to be come up with such a ridiculous legal theory?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The same way you came up with the straw man.:rofl:


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

scione said:


> The same way you came up with the straw man.:rofl:


I would have expected much better from a Harvard man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brat30 (Dec 7, 2011)

this post is written by a 30 year old women (myself) who has been spyed on by my ex husband who did it because he wanted to know who i was chatting with (to control me) I used to chat with people because i was very lonely my x was a very nasty and controling man. My current husband is well aware i chat with people...both men and women and has no issues with this. He too chat with both men and women. I'm not "loooking" for anyone nor is he so theirs no problems. I just posted this because I tend to beleive that a key logger is abused far too much...its a "control" method...used by someone who has poor self-esteem.


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## brat30 (Dec 7, 2011)

Thank you mighty!!!


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## brat30 (Dec 7, 2011)

Aefh great point thank you!


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> I would have expected much better from a Harvard man.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He might have had to dumb it down for you, Frank 

Seriously, with STDs so prevalent, how can anyone object to snooping IF THERE ARE RED FLAGS? We are talking risking one's life.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

themightypenguin said:


> o be the best person/spouse I can be and if that isn't good enough I will move on. If you choose to spend some portion of your life spying and agonizing over facebook posts and text messages I think you've missed the point. If you are suspicious ask. If they don't understand your concern and won't clear things up then you have a problem. Do you trust your SO or not? Do you stay or do you go? Do you go crazy spying and make your spouse feel like the only time they can relax is _away from you?_
> 
> Bottom line, cheating is wrong. It hurts. I won't tolerate it. I do, however, choose to trust my spouse and treat her like an adult when I have concerns about our relationship.


The problem being that very few cheating spouses behave like adults. If, as you say you would do, you ask your wife if she's cheating, whether she is or not, the answer you're likely to hear is, "Of course not. Don't be ridiculous." So, let's say you take her word for it, but something still feels "off." What would you do at that point. Your suggestion reminds me of an old Robin Williams bit in which he talks about British police not carrying weapons: "Stop! Or I'll say, 'Stop!' again."

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who's delighted at having spied to learn the truth when 1+1 wasn't coming out as 2, but learning the truth allowed them a sense of clarity to determine if their marriage could survive.



> I believe cheating is a symptom not a cause. Either the relationship is broken and/or one/both of the people are broken. Fix it, or don't fix it and move on. Continue living life as a victim and justify making yourself miserable so you can prove how right you are! That'll show 'em! When you're old and youth is long gone I'm sure you'll be glad you spent it policing your spouse's life.


I agree that cheating is a symptom and not a cause. But how do you propose to "fix it" if you don't know what's broken? As noted before, cheating spouses won't tell you. They frequently won't even tell you that anything is wrong, despite being asked directly, "What's wrong?" To illustrate, if all I do is walk into a room, flip the light switch, and I'm still in the dark, how do I know what the proper solution is? It may be as simple as a burnt out bulb. It may be a blown fuse. It may be faulty wiring. It may he a power outage in the area. I've got to determine the nature of the problem first.

You also appear to assume that, once methods to verify information are put into place, that the betrayed spouse spends every waking moment monitoring those sources. While it may certainly seem that way at first, if confirmation of infidelity is found, and the decision is made to reconcile, these methods - including full transparency (hopefully, Frank won't mind me using the "T" word) - are normally used to rebuild trust, and as trust is reestablished, the tools are needed and used less and less frequently. There also needed less as truly open communication is reestablished.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Arnold said:


> He might have had to dumb it down for you, Frank
> 
> Seriously, with STDs so prevalent, how can anyone object to snooping IF THERE ARE RED FLAGS? We are talking risking one's life.


I'm not objecting IF THERE ARE RED FLAGS and have already stated that SEVERAL TIMES. I do object to those here claiming they have an inherent (and, according to Mr. Harvard, legal) right to spy and that married people have no right or expectation to private communications.
And before you claim nobody is suggesting that, re-read the thread.
Making up things about married people owning one another's property isn't dumbing down. It's just dumb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> I'm not objecting IF THERE ARE RED FLAGS and have already stated that SEVERAL TIMES. I do object to those here claiming they have an inherent (and, according to Mr. Harvard, legal) right to spy and that married people have no right or expectation to private communications.
> And before you claim nobody is suggesting that, re-read the thread.
> Making up things about married people owning one another's property isn't dumbing down. It's just dumb.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'd need to research it, Frank, but, I think with community property laws that items acquired during the marriage may very well be jointly owned. I don't practice family law, but,it seems there very well may be an argument that a spouse has an ownership interest in the other spouse's property, suchthat it would not be considered theft if taken, provided the ownership was attained during the marriage
I will check and get back to you..


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

I had complete trust in my W. Not only complete, but blind too, never ever thought about snooping on her private interactions. My needs were not even getting met, however I chose to MARRY, which means a vow to work through anything.

Which is why it hurt to bad when she chose to reject me, out of the blue it seemed, and end our marriage. Nothing added up, she insisted there was nothing I was doing wrong, there was nobody else, she just wanted to be alone.

She would have left me in limbo and not looked back. Of course in reality there was somebody else, she really didn't want to be alone, she just didn't want to be with me and didn't think she owed it to me to tell me why or give me a hint. Yes she was selfish and immature and I am better off without her, but how could I move on without the truth? Nobody else is going to tell me, the world wouldn't notice is I just stayed in limbo forever.

It was not until I had to learn the truth for myself that I could move on, so I say to any other loyal spouse whose SO is checking out of the marriage or putting up red flags that something in the marriage is amiss, listen to your gut. It is your duty to your own self to know what happens in your marriage. Themightypenguin's argument may hold water during dating or in non-committed relationships but not after both parties have agree to a monogamous lifelong partnership.

I stand by my code of ethics quite strongly, and don't believe invading anyone's privacy is ever right, but when my marriage was under threat, and even falling apart I have no ethical qualms about doing what I had to do (snooping, sneaking, spying) in order to find out what was really happening to my marriage, because it is clear that there is no other way I would have gotten there, and I would still be in limbo indefinitely (which shouldn't be any betrayed spouses burden to carry). Even if the truth revealed there was no infidelity, both partners still deserve it, and in my opinion are entitled to it (even if there is no "legal" right to know).


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

I guess i would also need to look at privacy laws re communications being intercepted etc. My first impression is that , provided the communications were in the marital home (or car or whatever that is jointly owned) and the communication is carried out on a jointly owned item(this ties back into the community property analysis) there is no crime or tort.
But, I don't think it is clear at all that a spouse has a right of privacy relative to communications under these circumstances.
As i understand the recent holding in the case where the wife tried to have her husband prosecuted under some federal wiretapping law, the court found that the law did not apply to marriage siituations. Some Federal Appellate decision.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Arnold said:


> I'd need to research it, Frank, but, I think with community property laws that items acquired during the marriage may very well be jointly owned.


The great majority of states aren't community property states (less than 10 are) and even then there are numerous exceptions to what is defined as community property. A gift, for example.
And even then, shared ownership over a piece of hardware, such as a phone or computer, does not mean shared ownership of the communications therein, as some snoopers have found out the hard way.
But ultimately, it remains absolutely false to suggest, as Harvard did, that one spouse owns another spouse's belongings.

Edit: Community property laws typically are put in place to deal with the division of assets upon divorce or death, so in some instances may not even be relevant to one's right to access. I don't know the answer to that, but suspect the two issues may not be interchangeable.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Again, I will check. I think one would be hard pressed to have a spouse prosecuted for intercepting communications, particularly,on a family computer, regardless of who purchased it. See the case referenced. Should be easy to google.
If the asset was acquired during the marriage, I think it lekley belongs to both parties, unless, as you say, it was a gift. With the comingling of family funds from each spouse's income, it would be difficult to establish that the other spouse did not contribute toward the purchase.
Again interesting, but, clearly not so cut and dried so as to justify stating that someone using this analysis, like Scion, is out to lunch.


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## themightypenguin (Dec 5, 2011)

Grayson said:


> The problem being that very few cheating spouses behave like adults. If, as you say you would do, you ask your wife if she's cheating, whether she is or not, the answer you're likely to hear is, "Of course not. Don't be ridiculous." So, let's say you take her word for it, but something still feels "off." What would you do at that point. Your suggestion reminds me of an old Robin Williams bit in which he talks about British police not carrying weapons: "Stop! Or I'll say, 'Stop!' again."
> 
> I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who's delighted at having spied to learn the truth when 1+1 wasn't coming out as 2, but learning the truth allowed them a sense of clarity to determine if their marriage could survive.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with what you've said. 

I personally would not spy on my spouse. If I couldn't resolve things to my satisfaction I'd probably leave the relationship. I don't think that is a cut and dry process and it certainly wouldn't be easy. 

I also think the meaning of full transparency is up for debate. A casual glance at her phone or looking at email while both parties are present? Possibly assuming a spouse has cheated or some other breach of trust has occurred. Keylogging, gps, etc. IMO that crosses a line into unhealthy behavior. 

My primary disagreement is that we are owned by our spouse (not speaking to you specifically). I don't believe we have a right to know everything our spouse does/says/sees/etc. In a committed relationship I believe we have a responsibility to our spouses to be honest about our needs and insecurities. The right partner should understand and work with us to strengthen the relationship and eliminate any issues. 

If I'm suspecting my SO of cheating I would confront her with reasons why. If I get the don't be ridiculous response I acknowledge that it is indeed possible I'm being ridiculous. But, I still have these feelings and they aren't going away so what can we do? If she still protests and won't budge I'll have some decisions to make. Regardless of legality, spying on her would not be one of them. I can't think of any situation I've been in where spying would have made a difference. 

Both relationships I've been involved in where cheating was suspected ended. In one case it was confirmed by her. The second I don't really know, but, in hindsight, the relationship was going to end either way. 

Spying probably causes more problems than it helps. Our insecurities can get the best of us and I'm willing to be many relationships end as a result with no infidelity having occurred. 

I can only imagine the hell it must be to have to answer to your spouse constantly. Then you lie about stopping for ice cream because you just wanted a few moments of peace without being accused of seducing the girl behind the counter. Word gets back to your wife that you were at 31 flavors the other day and all the sudden you're hiding things and deserving of surveillance. 

Fixing a bad relationship or personal insecurities is tough. It's going to be specific to each relationship. In general I would say look at yourself. Improve yourself. Communicate honestly. Become more generous emotionally. Show your spouse that you do indeed love them and want to make life better for both of you. If you're still stonewalled bring up separation as a last resort. 

Some people are just bad people. If your spouse is one of them cut your losses and don't make the same mistake again. Be thankful that you have the option to leave and start over. Today's world is very forgiving of such things. 

I'm not condemning anyone here. Just giving my (not so educated) opinion.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

I think we are talking apples and oranges. There is a middle ground between just out of the blue snooping and that done as the result of clues, red flags, if you will.
I also think it is entirely different if the one is talking about a marriage , with kids , and a romantic relationship. In the mere romance, I agree that if you are feeling suspicious it makes sense to just walkaway. The stakes are higher with kids and a am marriage.
In my first mariage, i did little to investigat, other than to observe what was in plain view. My proof was , pretty much , incontrevertible, but, I still had some doubts when I divorced(not so much anymore, after reading aabout all the classic signs. but, this was pre-internet.)
When things started to add up to the same behavior in my second marriage, i was way more proactive and asked a PI I use in my practie to look into things. i had never even contemplated spying on my XW until all the signs reappeared. 
And, I am very glad i got the evidence, as my wife would have never come clean and i would have been cast as a bad husband , justifying her divorce.

In no way do I think investigating equates to feeling as if one has ownership of anyone.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Arnold said:


> Again, I will check. I think one would be hard pressed to have a spouse prosecuted for intercepting communications, particularly,on a family computer, regardless of who purchased it. See the case referenced. Should be easy to google.
> If the asset was acquired during the marriage, I think it lekley belongs to both parties, unless, as you say, it was a gift. With the comingling of family funds from each spouse's income, it would be difficult to establish that the other spouse did not contribute toward the purchase.


Again, this is the case only in common property states, of which there are few. In most states, if I buy a phone, it's my phone, whether I'm married or not.
And, again, co-ownership of the hardware is not the same as co-ownership of what's on it.
For example, if I had a company email containing trade secrets on my phone, does my wife now have the legal right to those trade secrets?

And, yes, people have been prosecuted for snooping into a spouse's electronic communications, mostly under computer tampering/fraud statutes. The case you cite was a wiretapping case. 



> Again interesting, but, clearly not so cut and dried so as to justify stating that someone using this analysis, like Scion, is out to lunch.


 Sorry, but it's provably out to lunch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## themightypenguin (Dec 5, 2011)

Arnold said:


> I think we are talking apples and oranges. There is a middle ground between just out of the blue snooping and that done as the result of clues, red flags, if you will.
> I also think it is entirely different if the one is talking about a marriage , with kids , and a romantic relationship. In the mere romance, I agree that if you are feeling suspicious it makes sense to just walkaway. The stakes are higher with kids and a am marriage.
> In my first mariage, i did little to investigat, other than to observe what was in plain view. My proof was , pretty much , incontrevertible, but, I still had some doubts when I divorced(not so much anymore, after reading aabout all the classic signs. but, this was pre-internet.)
> When things started to add up to the same behavior in my second marriage, i was way more proactive and asked a PI I use in my practie to look into things. i had never even contemplated spying on my XW until all the signs reappeared.
> ...


Not sure if you were replying to me, but I definitely think hiring a PI to follow a cheating spouse for evidence in a divorce is justifiable. I would view that more as gathering evidence for legal action. I understand that can have a huge impact on the outcome of a divorce. 

The mental image I have of people studying chat logs and facebook posts looking for infidelity is what I am against.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

In the brief reading I just did, Frank, it seems whether the state is community property or not is not determinative. as you mention, that seems to only figure into divorce type situations. Even the states that are not community property refer to assets acquired during the marriage as jointly owned.
Makes sense , if you think about it, as the funds used to buy the asset are , most likely either comingled or at least contributed to by a non working spouse by way subsudizing the families lifestyle by manning the homefront.
In other words, i doubt one could have one's spousepresecuted for grabbing one's cell phone or intalling a keylogger on a jointly owned computer. 
And, if the asset was acquired during the marriage, it would be jointly owned(again, unless gifted).
I don't recall ever seeing a prosecution for theft involving a spouse taking something purchased by the other spouse, unless they are seperated or divorced.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

themightypenguin said:


> Not sure if you were replying to me, but I definitely think hiring a PI to follow a cheating spouse for evidence in a divorce is justifiable. I would view that more as gathering evidence for legal action. I understand that can have a huge impact on the outcome of a divorce.
> 
> The mental image I have of people studying chat logs and facebook posts looking for infidelity is what I am against.


It's not much different, mighty. Just having a contractor do similar legwork.
I was not going to be able to use it in a divorce, as here, as in many states, it gave me no leverage. I just really was confused and thought I had lost it. I am not the jealous or possessive type at all, but my gut was screaming and I wanted to know the truth.
If I wanted to be able to make an informed decison, i needed Info and my XW would have never provided it, voluntarily.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Arnold said:


> In the brief reading I just did, Frank, it seems whether the state is community property or not is not determinative. as you mention, that seems to only figure into divorce type situations. Even the states that are not community property refer to assets acquired during the marriage as jointly owned.
> Makes sense , if you think about it, as the funds used to buy the asset are , most likely either comingled or at least contributed to by a non working spouse by way subsudizing the families lifestyle by manning the homefront.
> In other words, i doubt one could have one's spousepresecuted for grabbing one's cell phone or intalling a keylogger on a jointly owned computer.
> And, if the asset was acquired during the marriage, it would be jointly owned(again, unless gifted).
> I don't recall ever seeing a prosecution for theft involving a spouse taking something purchased by the other spouse, unless they are seperated or divorced.


OK, what I've found and what I know (not regarding theft, but the other issues) sayd something different.
Regardless, this has gone way off topic and I'll just respectfully agree to disagree here rather than continue arguing for argument's sake.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

It would make a good law school test question. My point was, merely, that Scion's analysis is not whacked. even if he were wrong, which I doubt, he raised an interesting issue.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Arnold said:


> But, I don't think it is clear at all that a spouse has a right of privacy relative to communications under these circumstances.
> As i understand the recent holding in the case where the wife tried to have her husband prosecuted under some federal wiretapping law, the court found that the law did not apply to marriage siituations. Some Federal Appellate decision.


*At the Federal level:*

The Fourth, Sixth, Eighth, Tenth, and Eleventh Circuits have all held that interspousal wiretapping and interception of email is actionable under Title III.

The Second and Fifth Circuits have held that Title III does not apply to interspousal relations.


*At the State level:*

Sixteen states so far have enacted legislation that under most circumstances prohibit using this software on another adult. (I've listed them previously) 


So your mileage may vary considerably depending upon where you live.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Arnold said:


> As i understand the recent holding in the case where the wife tried to have her husband prosecuted under some federal wiretapping law, the court found that the law did not apply to marriage siituations. Some Federal Appellate decision.


I'm not sure what case this is, but it sounds like it might be Bagley

In this case, the District Court deferred to a previous opinion by the Fifth Circuit which held that Title III does not apply to interspousal relations. (The Fifth and Second Circuits are in the minority on this issue)

However since this occurred in Texas the case isn't over yet, because this is illegal under state law. Texas has been the most aggressive state so far in prosecuting this offense and as I've already mentioned has handed out two four year prison sentences already. 

The Bagley case is complicated by the issue of vicarious consent. If minor children are in any way involved with the communication in question (Either as a party to or subject of) then consent is implicit. Parents are not allowed to withhold communication from each other concerning their children. And that does trump privacy law.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Thanks. Interesting.


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## lindaweller (Dec 1, 2011)

i think that if you've reached the point of actually using a keylogger or any sort of spy equiptment on your spouse, you've already dont trust them. that being said, since alot of the trust is out of the window sometimes the only way to find out the truth about a cheating spouse is to use such methods. so go for it i guess.


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