# Wife looking for divorce; advice?



## falconrap

I've been recently reading this site and learning a lot about the Alpha and Beta traits and reading the MMSL book, and this has come about because nearly two weeks ago my wife dropped the bomb about being unhappy. At the time she said she hadn't considered anything beyond the fact that she just wasn't in love with me anymore, though she still loved me. My first thought was that she might be seeking someone else, or had already done so, but it appears that she has not actually cheated. When she went back to her home state with my daughter (3 - we also have a son who is 7 with ADD/ADHD) she had to deal with the death of her step-grandmother whom she was really close to. She apparently started thinking, while up there, about a guy she dated in high school that she thought she would end up with and started wondering why she was with me.

I had given her the proposal to list her grievances and what she thought would happen in her ideal marriage (did so the next day), and she responded yesterday with the fact that she doesn't think she can change her feelings for me and that she would like to be amicable and stay together until we can process a divorce. It also appears she will move back to her home state to be with family. We are both 41 so I have made it quite clear to her that I will have no issues moving on, while she will have to deal with being 41, single, with 2 kids. She believes she may be fine without having a man in her life (she's in for a shock). So, last night I talked with her extensively, letting her know how I was unaware that I was being to Beta with her (I display more Alpha at work and do get looks from other women, and let her know that). I mentioned to her how I had read a lot of this material and plan to implement these changes regardless of whether or not they change her's, but asked her to at least not rush to the divorce, and just see what happens and see if she likes the changes and if the spark starts to re-light. She's still wearing the ring, still is "Married" in Facebook, and we continue to sleep in bed (sexless since April).

During our talk I let her know that I was instilled with a lot of the Beta "nice guy" traits by my Grandmother and I felt I may have over done it with her. I pay the bills and make a good deal of decisions with us, but we still tend to get into the "what do you want to do?" back and forth banter. But I also managed to pull out of her (which is why I think she subconsciously wants me to "get it" and win her back) that he "issue" is that she prefers more outdoorsy kinds of guys. I was denied a lot of these types of activities by my father (he had little interest and tended to sit in his chair a lot) and simply don't know how to do a lot of these things. I do, however, really LOVE these types of activities when I get to doing them. We did the Green Zebra tour at Snowshoe mountain (this is a military grade ATV tour) and was grinning ear to ear. But, having grown up in the Tampa Bay area, most of my outdoorsy stuff has been the beach and parks (thanks Dad...ugh). She also felt I didn't play enough with the kids (our marriage since our daughter has been born consisted of sex once every 3-4 months) which is fair, but when you are constantly thinking about your situation with your wife, you tend to not want to do things with your kids as much as you should.

I am working to change all of this, but I need advice. She's from WV, I'm from the Tampa Bay area, which is where we currently live. She still thinks she can't changer her feelings, but I did plant the seed that she already did once, and can again, and that couples that try the approaches I have seen here tend to get it back. I can see her struggling with this internally, but she does agree that if I could change and be the type of man she wants (it won't be hard because I would actually like to do these things - camping, trailing, 4x4in, even hunting - I have fished a good bit when younger) it would be a better outcome to fix the marriage than divorce. Any advice I can get, especially from the ladies here, would be great. I have never abused her or struck her. I have been the typical caring safe guy for her, but maybe not enough Alpha. She doesn't seem to thrilled with and though of me instigating touch on any higher level then simple hand on shoulders, back, arm stuff. So I need to be able to get that emotional trigger going before I can use any touch or sexuality to really trigger stronger feelings.

Sorry about the novel. I did tell her that I don't need her, but I'm not willing to just give up this marriage without fighting for it. Thanks.


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## Emerald

Hi -

First I am sorry about all of this. You seem like a great guy from your post. As a woman, I don't really subscribe to all this beta/alpha stuff because it seems to be geared toward men changing to please women & maybe it works, but not for me.

You see I like "caring, safe men" the way you describe yourself - am married to one & am very happy. You have a family that she is trying to take away from you & move to another state. Not okay.

Be careful - if you "alpha up" it could backfire & drive her further away. She did not fall in love with you like that. She is confused about her feelings for you, may be a bit bored & maybe experiencing a mid-life crisis - happens all the time.

She is doing the "what if" thinking about old boyfriends. Many people do that & don't act on it, but some do, so keep your eyes open on that one.

I agree with you - fight for your marriage & your family. Romance her even if she is not too receptive at this time.

Good luck.


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## sisters359

> She believes she may be fine without having a man in her life (she's in for a shock).


If you really think this, then your problem is not being too beta. 

No one likes a doormat (that's not beta). But no one likes an arrogant fool either.


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## anchorwatch

Ok, you look at the MMSL and you think you look too beta. 

For her, it's seems like she's checked out. Why? 

1) Is she getting her emotional needs filled by someone else other than you. You should do some more checking on this OM. You won't be able to get her affections back while there is someone else in you marriage. Double check. 

2) What is she doing to fix this marriage? She dreams about life being better, if she was with another guy? So this marriage is over. Walk away? Your worried she wants out and you may be starting to look clingy, being the only one that wants to fix it. This is where you look beta. You doing back flips for her is being beta. You improving yourself for you, will give off the alpha vibe. That way she'd know you can do OK, with her or without her. 

Glad to see your reading, most don't try to reach out and learn. Read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" for yourself. 

Both of you read "His Needs, Her Needs" too. 

Good luck to you.


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## the guy

You sure did brush over the man back in her home state! What about that? Is there more of an influence there then you care to admit? Have you done your own investigation to see if there is more contact then you thought?


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## anchorwatch

the guy said:


> You sure did brush over the man back in her home state! What about that? Is there more of an influence there then you care to admit? Have you done your own investigation to see if there is more contact then you thought?


:iagree:


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## alphaomega

Falcon...

Kudos on the "manning Up" journey.

However, your biggest mistake is telling her your manning up. I'm assuming you did this to "impress" her for approval?

Manning up is for you. It's your journey. Not hers.

Do the MAP. But do it for yourself. She will either like the new and improved you or she won't. Either way, you will be a stronger person for it.

Btw. Your wife's actions indicate she still sees you as the back up guy. I'm not an advocate of divorce, but in this instance I would mentally get to the point where I tell her..."go already. If your not happy, then go. No reason to drag this out on me while you decide.". But, that's just me. And it takes a while to get to that point in your confidence.


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## alphaomega

Oh. If you want to do outdoorsy things, then get off your ass and do them. But don't do them "for her". Do the ones YOU want to do for you. The ones you enjoy. Then involve your kids.

But! She knew who you were when she married you. She is now telling you that she is into more outdoorsy types because, well, she's trying to justify her feeling in her head. So...she's reaching for any excuse to use to validate herself. Expect a lot of this confusing babble from her while she is going through this phase.

You were good enough to marry, but now your ful of numerous faults? I don't buy that.


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## donders

falconrap said:


> I have made it quite clear to her that I will have no issues moving on, while she will have to deal with being 41, single, with 2 kids.


I don't get why you said this to her, and what you think that may possibly accomplish.

She's decided that she doesn't want to be with you and you're trying to make her realize that 

a) You'll have no trouble moving on. 
b) she will have a lot of trouble moving on.

First of all why even tell her you'll be fine moving on, how is that of any relevance to her and her decision? It's almost like you're spitefully saying "Fine, go ahead and dump me I'll be just fine without you" which is in effect saying the opposite.

Secondly, do you really think she'll say "oh, you're right, I'm 41, I've got kids (like you don't?) and I don't have a chance in HELL of meeting a guy so I might as well stay with my husband who I am no longer in love with?

Besides the fact that an attractive women in her early 40s has a lot to choose from out there, and there are guys, such as myself who don't mind dating a woman with kids as long as she's got the other qualities we want.

All I'm saying is that you're going about this the wrong way.

You can't convince her to stay with you by trying to scare her and by acting like it doesn't matter to you.


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## falconrap

Thanks for all of the replies. I'll try to address some of this as I can. I'm not totally positive she has the alpha/beta issue with me, which is why I had the discussion I had. A lot of what seems to be going on with her seems more mid-life crises type stuff instead, and it's obvious when we talk that she is not exactly happy she is doing this, though, after talking to me, the two times, she has been a lot happier. I seriously doubt she is happy that she dumped on me and thinks shes going to be "free". Which is why I went the route I did.

As far as why I commented to her about 41 with kids, the reality is she doesn't seem to fathom what she's going to go through. Where she plans to go, there is a dearth of men looking for 41 year old women with 2 young kids. I wanted her to understand this, because she seems receptive to not ending it. If she has it in her head that everything is going to be peachy, she has it wrong. Today I determined we'd all go to the park and then go to a particular place for lunch (doing the alpha). She enjoyed most of the time, but she gets upset with the children regularly. She thinks being separated from me will make her happier around the children, when it is quite clear that the children drive her nuts, which may be part of her whole issue.

As to telling her that I don't need her, but will fight to keep her, I wanted to have this discussion on a more alpha term, knowing that this whole conversation could very easily go beta. She agrees that I could easily move on, which is why I don't think this is a sex rank issue, though the sexuality will still have a component to the whole problem.

Believe me, I'm trying my best to set myself up to move on, but, because of the kids and time invested in our marriage, I have no intention of just walking away. I've seen advice stating that I should tell her my intentions on improving, while I have seen others saying not. There's no perfect answer, but I am trying to do this based on what I am seeing in her reactions. She still wears the ring and sleeps in our bed with me. She is clearly confused, and I wanted to make sure she knew that I was going to improve myself, for myself, but that I wanted her to at least see what I am doing. I think she is doing that. It will take time to turn her around, and I will be asking for advice as I go.

Thanks for all of the advice.


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## anchorwatch

You didn't address the OM.


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## falconrap

anchorwatch said:


> You didn't address the OM.


Sorry...forgot about that one. I believe she has not had any affairs, even when going up there. She was greatly preoccupied with the original reason she went (family member graduation) and then the death of her step-grandmother (they had a pretty strong bond). I'm also pretty good at picking up signals that she's hiding something. Her body language was totally truthful in appearance and she's, quite frankly, just not that type. She was straight forward about how she thought about this guy. I'm a computer guru (I'm a test engineer, so technology is something I have a very strong grasp of) and know how to find stuff on her computer, phone, Facebook, etc... and there's nothing. Not even a hint anywhere that she was thinking of someone else. If she's hiding it, she's pulling the greatest con I've ever seen.

After today's events, I am becoming more convinced that her main issue is a MLC and may not even truly be me, at least not fully. We went to the park and had fun with the kids. We were laughing watching how cute our girl can be (she is just a cutie when running around making giggling noises and such), sharing glances and laughs. She was perfectly happy early on. But as the kids started getting a little unruly and becoming an issue, her temper started to get short with them. But early in this, we were still fine and jovial (no sniping at me). Then, as this continued through lunch (keeping a very active girl and an ADD/ADHD child from bouncing around at lunch is unbelievably difficult, though I tend to have the better results with it and I did manage to keep them mostly in check, but not totally), the wife became shorter tempered with them and not as jovial with me, but not short with me yet.

As the afternoon progressed, and the kids continued to try to push boundaries, she started getting short with me. I keep them in check a lot, but when they are out and about for a long stretch with no rest time, they really get to that stage where the Supper Nanny would be frustrated with them. I'm starting to believe that the kids may actually be the primary source of her frustrations, which makes since looking back at when the cold shoulder started occurring (about 3 years after our son was born - and when we started noticing behavior issues with him - followed by her getting pregnant with our daughter, after which the sex life dwindled tremendously).

I'm going to continue my changes for the better, but I think she was right when she told me that it wouldn't help, only because I'm starting to think I'm a casualty of her frustrations with dealing with both kids. The fact that she doesn't like her job either, may be why I am being pegged as the reason she can't be happy. I'm really interesting to hear from any ladies out there that may have gone through something similar and if I am on the right track or not. I'm still going to work on the other stuff regardless in case I am wrong, and in case I end up having to find someone else.


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## Emerald

What exactly are you supposed to do/change in order for her to stay?


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## falconrap

Emerald said:


> What exactly are you supposed to do/change in order for her to stay?


The changes I am making are mostly along the lines of being more involved with the kids by taking them out more often, as well as stepping away from the computer more when I could be getting some much needed stuff done. Mostly that and some small things. I'm not going to completely change myself, just things that make me a better man and father. She can choose to see this or ignore it. I really believe at this point that she is stressed out from the kids, work, and the time she puts in for her diet and exercise. I think she's using me as the focal point and using the "not my type" as an excuse. We haven't really had time away from the kids in years, and that could be a big issue in all of this.

It's clear that the kids really push her buttons at times. So far we are on cruise control and I hope to garner other influences from friends and family to help her get her emotions straight. If she gets stressed from kids now, when I'm here to help, imagine if I'm not around. I'm also thinking that I need to get someone to watch the kids for a night and just take her to dinner alone. Might be a start to rekindle any lost feelings.


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## anchorwatch

falconrap said:


> The changes I am making are mostly along the lines of being more involved with the kids by taking them out more often, as well as stepping away from the computer more when I could be getting some much needed stuff done. Mostly that and some small things. I'm not going to completely change myself, just things that make me a better man and father. She can choose to see this or ignore it. I really believe at this point that she is stressed out from the kids, work, and the time she puts in for her diet and exercise. I think she's using me as the focal point and using the "not my type" as an excuse. We haven't really had time away from the kids in years, and that could be a big issue in all of this.
> 
> It's clear that the kids really push her buttons at times. So far we are on cruise control and I hope to garner other influences from friends and family to help her get her emotions straight. If she gets stressed from kids now, when I'm here to help, imagine if I'm not around. I'm also thinking that I need to get someone to watch the kids for a night and just take her to dinner alone. Might be a start to rekindle any lost feelings.


If you really believe this is the crux of the matter, you need to spend 15 hours a week together, without distractions. Read "His Needs, Her Needs" by W. Harley, See what a marriage looks like and you'll understand the problems you are describing. 

Amazon.com: His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage : Willard F. Jr. Harley: Books


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## falconrap

anchorwatch said:


> If you really believe this is the crux of the matter, you need to spend 15 hours a week together, without distractions. Read "His Needs, Her Needs" by W. Harley, See what a marriage looks like and you'll understand the problems you are describing.
> 
> Amazon.com: His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage : Willard F. Jr. Harley: Books


Thank you very much. Should I consider the "for Parents" version, since we have kids? From the reviews it looks like it is basically the first book plus material on dealing with children.


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## anchorwatch

I would purchase both. The first one is very in depth on the emotional needs of the married couple. The parenting book glances over the emotional needs and then directly addresses children.


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## falconrap

anchorwatch said:


> I would purchase both. The first one is very in depth on the emotional needs of the married couple. The parenting book glances over the emotional needs and then directly addresses children.


Thanks again. I just purchased the main one (for now) along with the "5 Love Languages" as it appears the both complement.

Hopefully, I can find a way to get our marriage heading along the reconciliation path while there is still some level of hope.


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## anchorwatch

falconrap said:


> Thanks again. I just purchased the main one (for now) along with the "5 Love Languages" as it appears the both complement.
> 
> Hopefully, I can find a way to get our marriage heading along the reconciliation path while there is still some level of hope.



From your post, it does sounds like there is still hope for you both. 

Dr Chapman's method is compatible with "HNHN". Dr. Harley's books are much more in depth and address more subjects that affect the relationship, as you found researching his book. The idea is to understanding emotional needs and to fulfill them for each other. 

Good luck, wishing you and your family well.


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## falconrap

I finished reading The 5 Love Languages and started the His Needs, Her Needs. The 5 Love Languages is excellent. It hit home immediately, to the point of making me weep for just now realizing that all my expressions of love for her didn't register because she doesn't speak my love language. The His Needs, Her Needs, looks very similar, though breaking stuff down into 10 needs that could be characterized similarly with the 5 Love Languages. More in-depth on the needs we have. I think the 5 Love Languages is a good first step and HNHN will be a good one to help keep things improving. I think this is the right path for us, as I can already see why the children tend to misbehave.

My eyes are wide open now. I just hope my wife makes the choice that I have given her to read and understand this knowledge to. I'll find out one way or the other.


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## anchorwatch

Been there. Did it on my own for a while. She noticed after a bit and took interest and finally read the books. We're married 37 years now. Keep at it. No more angry outburst. Just speak her language.


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## falconrap

Well, today I had my dad watch our kids so that we could have a dinner together without the hassle for once. When she found out I had planned this, she said it would have been nice to know (we were all going to go to dinner regardless). I told her that I wanted to just take her out without the kids and she started off about how I am trying to save the marriage, but that it's not going to happen. I talked with her about the 5 Love Languages, which she accepted - kindle version - and started reading. I told her that most marriages that have both couples do the things outline in this book manage to save their marriages. I could tell at this point she clearly had her mind made up and said we just weren't compatible (which is bull). I finally got her to fess up that she had in fact, through some means (I suspect Facebook's chat, since that is the one thing I can't check on her - all other Facebook activity has been completely clean; sneaky woman) had conversations with her ex-bo from high school. This is a guy who dumped her, and then went on to marry someone else. That marriage is reportedly either coming to an end, or is over. I told her point blank, and a calm but pissed off attitude (no angry outbursts - just calm mean stare with verbalization) that she broke her vows to me and cheated on me by having an emotional affair with this guy. I reminded her about the devastation she was ready to unleash on her family, kids included, and she shook her head in acknowledgement (clearly she has become quite selfish - and I thought I knew this woman). The last words I spoke to her on this were in the form of a question "Will this guy be a good father to our kids?" This happen, though, just has the kids came in and she wanted to stop talking about it when they came in.

We did go on to have dinner alone. I continued to be the good person I am. I'm sure some level of agitation was still clearly on my face at times. Then we discussed an issue she notice today. She started talking, got comments from someone who knows medicine, as well as some info on the net, and we both determined that the condition was either harmless or life threatening. So we decided to take her to the emergency room after dinner. She mentioned she could drive herself there and I could go get the kids, but I would have none of that. I didn't want her to run the risk of having something happen while driving there, so I insisted on taking her and she was perfectly fine with it. I stayed as long as I could, until she was in back and they were ready to take her to another room for tests. She agreed it was a good time for me to go get the kids, which I did. It turned out to be the harmless issue, thankfully.

So here I am. In some ways I am more devastated than ever. But I have also kind of turned around and thought maybe it's time for me to move on and let her make the colossal mistake she is going to make. I can't believe she is so naive to think that her chasing of her ex-bo is going to actually work out. A guy who's already emotionally cheating on his current spouse. She actually thinks she'll be happy no matter what, yet...it's supposedly not me that's the problem. I have resolved myself to show her that I am moving on, while, at the same time, I will continue to devote the time and effort to show I still care, but only to a point. I will try to fill her needs and see if the slow march of time changes things, but I want the gravity of her situation to sink in. _CONTINUED_


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## falconrap

I am thinking of talking to certain family members and try to ascertain what is the deal with this guy she wants. They are in her home state where this guy lives (small state, mostly rural, everyone knows people) and I think they may know if this guy is really worth the spit or not. It may also open an avenue, if done right, to get someone she really trusts in the family to open up what is going on in her thoughts and maybe straighten her out, but only if she doesn't believe I am involved in this. Regardless of how I feel about her, she is rearing to make a terrible mistake. The relationship she is seeking is statistically doomed. Maybe she might get lucky and defy the odds, but the kids being with her multiply the chances of failure, as well as the possibility that my kids will be subject to physical abuse. She's not planning to leave anytime soon (I am clearly plan B and the time is obviously not right). We have a trip to see her parents for Thanksgiving, and that trip is on. I would so LOVE to get to meet this turkey while I'm up there. Maybe the good Lord will grant me a kind opportunity to put this home wrecker in his place.

Oh the frustration of it all. Is it bad to hope she goes through a living he!! so that her stubborn, you know what, learns a hard earned lesson? Yeah, it is. But still...

All I can say is that it is a really good thing for her that I still love her. Wish me luck in turning this mess around. Any other tips and advice that people have...I'm all ears (or in this case, eyes).


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## Entropy3000

It was obviosu from the first post that seh was in at least an EA. Be ready to come to grips with the possibility this went physical on the trip. Also that she may have planned this before the trip.


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## falconrap

Oh, I'm prepared. She better be too. I'm not going to get nasty or anything. But I WILL make sure the right people in her life know what has happened. Their influence may change all of this. Quite frankly, I can easily move on (I have no problem getting attention). So I am prepared for anything. But I will not allow her to do this without a guilty conscience. It amazes me everyday how weak people can be. Through all the lack of sex over the last 3 years (roughly 1 a quarter since my daughter was born) I could have easily cheated on her to fill my needs. It seems I am a far stronger person, morally, than her, and it kind of disgusts me that she would do this too me.

It's ironic, because, during our first conversation, she said she hated doing this too me and wished that I had been abusive to her. She KNOWS she's completely in the wrong and doesn't have any strong reasoning to leave me. When I ask what would make her happy...she has no answer. Yeah, her little fling will really work out! 

At some point in the near future I will push the issue further and see if I can drag out all of the details. I may start asking family to try and dig in and find out what happened. It appears from what I have seen that she hasn't discussed this with them either.


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## anchorwatch

Falcon, it was evident in you post, you dismissed the idea of an A to quickly. I'd expect some of her family/friends already know about the A. Be aware these people are not friends of your marriage. Now the question is, are you willing to take the steps to kill the affair and try for reconciliation, if it's possible? If you are, there are things you must do. Ask the Mod's to move your thread to the Coping with Infidelity area of the forum. There you will get advice to guide you, from those who have walked in your shoes. Remember you cannot nice her into giving up the OM. You need move quickly, be methodical, stay calm and yet be strong in your resolve. 

She must understand you will not share your marriage with another man, it's him or you, not both. Do not leave your house and your children. If she goes to him in the other state, your children will not leave your state. See a divorce/custody lawyer asap. 

You'll need to gather evidence of the affair first, then expose it to the OMW and both your families.

Here's more reads and links for you;

Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends"

Divorce Busting® - How to Save Your Marriage, Solve Marriage Problems, and Stop Divorce

Sorry you here, have strength, you'll need it.


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## This is me

41....MLC. Been there with my Wife. Be patient and mitigate the damage she will do, the best you can.


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## falconrap

Yeah, it appears I did. I looked pretty thoroughly for any traces, and there were none, but I can't view her Facebook chat, so that must of been how she did it. I'm going to pry with some family members that know me well, and know I would never deserve this kind of treatment, and see if I can't dig up the info on this guy. I need to see if J can't get her Facebook password somehow.

How do I get a moderator to move this thread? PM them?


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## This is me

I strongly recommend reading the book "Divorce Remedy". It helped me mitigate the damage. We sometimes do things when they get the MLC fog that make things worse. The advice kept me on course. I read and reread for months.

Reading your comments confirms to me she is in a fog, I think you see it also. The hard part for us is keeping our emotions in check and not reacting to their crazy behavior.

If you want to save your marriage, than rise above the mental illness she is going through. Prepare for a long haul with patience and seek professional help with a good licensed MC and/or IC.

I wish you well!!


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## falconrap

Thanks for the support. You're right, she is clearly going through the MLC. The fact she doesn't even know what will make her happy is probably my biggest clue. I think I know what I need to do to try and get the other guy to move on, but it may take a few days for me to get the info I need.

Thanks again.


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## anchorwatch

falconrap said:


> Yeah, it appears I did. I looked pretty thoroughly for any traces, and there were none, but I can't view her Facebook chat, so that must of been how she did it. I'm going to pry with some family members that know me well, and know I would never deserve this kind of treatment, and see if I can't dig up the info on this guy. I need to see if J can't get her Facebook password somehow.
> 
> How do I get a moderator to move this thread? PM them?


Yes PM one of the Mod's. 

Use a key logger to get her passwords. They can be put on cell phones too.

Read this thread, http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/50563-anyone-interested-evidence-gathering-thread.html


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## falconrap

Ok, I'm clueless. How do I pm the mods?

Interesting day today, though. For the first time in weeks, she's been doing a lot of housework. She also went through the trouble of reheating my pizza for lunch today while making the lunch for the kids. She did some other minor things for me. I'm starting to wonder if the health incident last night, combined with me being there for her, may have given her some pause. This MLC of her's is really making her act like a totally different person at times, and then more normal, like today. I wonder how far along she is in her MLC and whether or not last night's incident was enough to start shifting her back. Not taking any chances though as she may simply feel the need to make sure I'm still along as plan B. I will do what I need to make sure the OM removes himself from the situation.


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## anchorwatch

falconrap said:


> Ok, I'm clueless. How do I pm the mods?
> 
> Interesting day today, though. For the first time in weeks, she's been doing a lot of housework. She also went through the trouble of reheating my pizza for lunch today while making the lunch for the kids. She did some other minor things for me. I'm starting to wonder if the health incident last night, combined with me being there for her, may have given her some pause. This MLC of her's is really making her act like a totally different person at times, and then more normal, like today. I wonder how far along she is in her MLC and whether or not last night's incident was enough to start shifting her back. Not taking any chances though as she may simply feel the need to make sure I'm still along as plan B. I will do what I need to make sure the OM removes himself from the situation.


I clicked the notify icon, a Mod should be along shortly. Be patient it's Labor Day we.
Good luck.


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## ShootMePlz!

She wants to move back to her home state from Florida....why are you allowing her to move back there when you are not from there? Get a lawyer....she can't just take the kids a judge has to allow this. Exposure of the affair and reality of not being able to take the kids back home where her boyfriend is at can stop this in its tracks.


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## falconrap

ShootMePlz! said:


> She wants to move back to her home state from Florida....why are you allowing her to move back there when you are not from there? Get a lawyer....she can't just take the kids a judge has to allow this. Exposure of the affair and reality of not being able to take the kids back home where her boyfriend is at can stop this in its tracks.


She's not leaving right now. She's moving slowly and plans to file a divorce and wants to be amicable. So far she's been amicable, and I am going to keep things on this level and make sure time passes to allow her MLC to lapse. If she goes through with the filing I will do what I must. Children brought into a relationship with another man, tend to be physically abused, and that fact she's not weighing that in tells me she's not thinking right.

Now...if someone could please tell me how to off email notifications so she doesn't see them, I would be grateful, since I can't seem to find the right setting to change.


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## Married in VA

Falcon,
You need to be careful here. Remember the conventional wisdom, whoever files the D first usually wins. If she files the D and asks for sole custody of the kids, you will be coming from behind as a dad to fight for your rights. Whether you like it or not, you are at war with your soon to be ex. Understand that as long as there is another man in the picture, you are history to her. Nothing you can say or do will compete with the rosy, happily ever after fantasy she has with him at the moment. That is the fog we speak of. Until this vision is shattered, nothing will help.

Once you WW gets sole custody, then it's off to the other state with little you can do except beg the court to block the move. All she has to do is show that it's in the kid's best interest for the move and she's gone. With family around there to help her out, that standard can be met very quickly. You will be paying HIGH child support while she lives it up with the OM and you will be LUCKY to see your kids once in a while. You will be an ATM while she gets it on with another dude and HE is raising your kids HIS way. Catch my drift?

YOU NEED TO GET PISSED OFF and stop trying to be nice and amicable. She is not your friend and she is not going to work with you like you think she will when this gets to the courthouse steps. To prevent losing your children you need to sit your W down and tell her the following:

1. Honey, I understand you have feelings for OM. You are married to me. This is not okay. You need to cut off all contact with the OM or I will be filing for divorce. I am not giving you time to "figure this out", you are either in this marriage or you are not.

2. If she says or indicates that she is not in the marriage, you TELL her to move out BY HERSELF up to be with the OM. You then file for divorce and custody, she pays child support.

3. She refuses to leave, then you file for D, naming the OM as a co-respondent, and ask for use of the marital home to her exclusion while the D proceeds. You ask for temporary sole custody and temporary child support while the case proceeds.

YOUR DOING NOTHING WILL ENSURE HER VICTORY AND THE WORST CASE SCENARIO OUTLINED ABOVE WILL BE YOUR REALITY. Time to MAN UP!


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## anchorwatch

Go to your user cp panel and turn off your subscriptions.


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## lordmayhem

falconrap said:


> Yeah, it appears I did. I looked pretty thoroughly for any traces, and there were none, but I can't view her Facebook chat, so that must of been how she did it. I'm going to pry with some family members that know me well, and know I would never deserve this kind of treatment, and see if I can't dig up the info on this guy. I need to see if J can't get her Facebook password somehow.
> 
> How do I get a moderator to move this thread? PM them?


There's still a possibility that the facebook chats are still on the computer under her profile and possibly some passwords if they haven't been overwritten already. So try:

*Fchat*

Download Fchat 1.20 Free Trial - A program that will search and recover or capture live Facebook chat on your computer. - Softpedia










IF she was ever careless enough to click "save my password" in her browser, you might be able to retrieve those passwords.

*WebBrowserPassView v1.26* 

WebBrowserPassView - Recover lost passwords stored in your Web browser










But you need to do this now. Its a long shot, but there's always a chance. Some cheaters are more careless than others.


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## jay80_98

i smell an affair


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## lordmayhem

falconrap said:


> She's not leaving right now. She's moving slowly and plans to file a divorce and wants to be amicable. So far she's been amicable, and I am going to keep things on this level and make sure time passes to allow her MLC to lapse. If she goes through with the filing I will do what I must. Children brought into a relationship with another man, tend to be physically abused, and that fact she's not weighing that in tells me she's not thinking right.
> 
> Now...if someone could please tell me how to off email notifications so she doesn't see them, I would be grateful, since I can't seem to find the right setting to change.


You're merely reacting, and being a nice guy is just going to get you screwed over. You need to lawyer up...like yesterday. You need to get an emergency/temporary custody order set up now, one that's signed by a judge.

I'll tell you this: As long as there is no child custody order in effect, then she can take the children out of state, practically anywhere she wants to. And there's nothing that you or the police can do about it because this is a civil matter. 

You can also get a morality clause written into your separation agreement.

Morality Clause: Prohibiting Cohabitation and Overnight Guests

Stop reacting, and start acting. Or you WILL get screwed over. And if you're in an At Fault state for divorce, then you had better get concrete evidence of her cheating.


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## Will_Kane

If you want to save your marriage, you have to break up this affair. You need more info to do that.

Put a keylogger on her computer. Get a voice-activated recorder and heavy-duty velcro and put it under the seat of her car. I'm guessing that if you do this successfully you will find out that the affair went physical when she visited her home state without you.

"I love you but I'm not in love with you" means "I'm in love with someone else" about 95% of the time.

Cheaters are liars. Assume that all of your wife's words are lies, UNLESS they are supported by actions.

If you can, hire a private investigator to get you info on the other man and his wife. Expose the affair to her. Expose the affair to your family and hers and your and her friends - to those who can influence her to try to save the marriage. Just a brief call telling them that your wife is having an affair, with whom, and that you would like their support in saving your marriage. DO NOT tell your wife you are going to do this.

When your wife confronts you, do not argue with her about it. Simply tell her that you are fighting for her and fighting for your marriage and family.

Also, tell your wife you are not letting her move the kids to another state. Your wife wants you to "amicably" allow her to take advantage of you. She is setting herself up for her dream life, and she doesn't care if it's at your expense.

Other man is a wonderful fantasy, it's all "i love you's," sex talk, sex, and a fantasy of happily-ever-after with no everyday concerns interfering - no chores, no bills, no screaming kids, no problems with the house or car, etc. That is her life with the other man right now. There is no way you can compete with that.

Breaking up the affair is the only way you are going to save your marriage.


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## Will_Kane

Married in VA said:


> Falcon,
> You need to be careful here. Remember the conventional wisdom, whoever files the D first usually wins. If she files the D and asks for sole custody of the kids, you will be coming from behind as a dad to fight for your rights. Whether you like it or not, you are at war with your soon to be ex. Understand that as long as there is another man in the picture, you are history to her. Nothing you can say or do will compete with the rosy, happily ever after fantasy she has with him at the moment. That is the fog we speak of. Until this vision is shattered, nothing will help.
> 
> Once you WW gets sole custody, then it's off to the other state with little you can do except beg the court to block the move. All she has to do is show that it's in the kid's best interest for the move and she's gone. With family around there to help her out, that standard can be met very quickly. You will be paying HIGH child support while she lives it up with the OM and you will be LUCKY to see your kids once in a while. You will be an ATM while she gets it on with another dude and HE is raising your kids HIS way. Catch my drift?
> 
> YOU NEED TO GET PISSED OFF and *stop trying to be nice and amicable. She is not your friend and she is not going to work with you like you think she will* when this gets to the courthouse steps. *To prevent losing your children you need to sit your W down and tell her the following:
> 
> 1. Honey, I understand you have feelings for OM. You are married to me. This is not okay. You need to cut off all contact with the OM or I will be filing for divorce. I am not giving you time to "figure this out", you are either in this marriage or you are not.
> 
> 2. If she says or indicates that she is not in the marriage, you TELL her to move out BY HERSELF up to be with the OM. You then file for divorce and custody, she pays child support.
> 
> 3. She refuses to leave, then you file for D, naming the OM as a co-respondent, and ask for use of the marital home to her exclusion while the D proceeds. You ask for temporary sole custody and temporary child support while the case proceeds.*
> 
> YOUR DOING NOTHING WILL ENSURE HER VICTORY AND THE WORST CASE SCENARIO OUTLINED ABOVE WILL BE YOUR REALITY. Time to MAN UP!


This is right on the money. Your wife is NOT your friend right now. She is working against you. This is not a "win-win" type of situation. Her gain is your loss. Her being nice to you is just to manipulate you into keeping it "amicable" while she gets all her ducks in a row. She is planning to leave you to live happily ever after with the other man. If it comes down to your happiness vs. hers, she's choosing hers.


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## falconrap

I have one piece of proof already and sent it to FIL. I have explained everything to him, and believe he will be instrumental in terminating this guy's contact with my wife. I can't believe women, and men for that matter, can be this stupid and think this is going to work out well. I'm floored at all of this. Had I known something earlier...yeah, I know.

My heart is racing right now.


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## falconrap

FIL made contact and let me know that he and MIL are with me and devastated that their daughter would do this. I hope that can give me some info on this guy. We'll see.


----------



## lordmayhem

falconrap said:


> I have one piece of proof already and sent it to FIL. I have explained everything to him, and believe he will be instrumental in terminating this guy's contact with my wife. I can't believe women, and men for that matter, can be this stupid and think this is going to work out well. I'm floored at all of this. Had I known something earlier...yeah, I know.
> 
> My heart is racing right now.


Part of the 180 is not asking the in-laws for help. Yes, your FIL is disappointed in his daughter. Yes, he would not approve of her having an affair. But the fact remains, blood is thicker than water, and when push comes to shove, he will ultimate support her in the end, despite not liking her actions.

DO NOT put your trust in him or expect him to be the one to shock her out of her fog. In other words, don't expect him to be the one to fix your marriage.


----------



## lordmayhem

Will_Kane said:


> Other man is a wonderful fantasy, it's all "i love you's," sex talk, sex, and a fantasy of happily-ever-after with no everyday concerns interfering - no chores, no bills, no screaming kids, no problems with the house or car, etc. That is her life with the other man right now. There is no way you can compete with that.
> 
> Breaking up the affair is the only way you are going to save your marriage.


IKR? Yet we seen this all the time. The BS thinks that if he/she can be a better husband/wife by doing everything they can, including being a doormat, that their WS will suddenly have an epiphany and come back to the marriage. We all know that a BS cannot "nice" them out of an affair.


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## falconrap

lordmayhem said:


> Part of the 180 is not asking the in-laws for help. Yes, your FIL is disappointed in his daughter. Yes, he would not approve of her having an affair. But the fact remains, blood is thicker than water, and when push comes to shove, he will ultimate support her in the end, despite not liking her actions.
> 
> DO NOT put your trust in him or expect him to be the one to shock her out of her fog. In other words, don't expect him to be the one to fix your marriage.


 I partially agree with this. The disagreement is that it depends on the family. I have seen instances where the family supported the in-law over the family member. Situation like this are NOT black and white. Her family will be of mixed emotion, but they know me quite well and know that I am not deserving of this. But, even more so, they don't want to see her ruin her life over a fantasy. They are researching the guy right now. They are the best resources I have to eliminate this threat. As I have said, I've personally seen families choose the victim over their family member. This is more typical in God faring families, which they are, versus the non...which is probably why this is what it is.

If they can't help, I've probably lost the battle to keep her, and I'm just fighting for the kids. I'm going to do what I can, and make the best judgment calls I can based on the people.


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## lordmayhem

falconrap said:


> I partially agree with this. The disagreement is that it depends on the family. I have seen instances where the family supported the in-law over the family member. Situation like this are NOT black and white. Her family will be of mixed emotion, but they know me quite well and know that I am not deserving of this. But, even more so, they don't want to see her ruin her life over a fantasy. They are researching the guy right now. They are the best resources I have to eliminate this threat. As I have said, I've personally seen families choose the victim over their family member. This is more typical in God faring families, which they are, versus the non...which is probably why this is what it is.


Sure they can help, their have been families that have disowned their own daughter/son for cheating. Just don't depend entirely on them is what I'm saying. You need an alternate plan, which is doing the investigating yourself and not depending entirely upon them. You've been give the tools to do this on this site.



falconrap said:


> If they can't help, I've probably lost the battle to keep her, and I'm just fighting for the kids. I'm going to do what I can, and make the best judgment calls I can based on the people.


There shouldn't be a battle to keep her at all. In fact, you need to be working on letting her go. Haven't you been reading the advice you've been given by all those who've been thru this? Its not until someone has lost something that they realize what they've lost. This applies to her, not you. If she was truly remorseful, she would be fighting the battle to keep you, not the other way around. I should know, ask all of us who are in R. This is what we who are in R, call doing the heavy lifting.

Because as of this moment, she already belongs to the OM. You cannot compete with a fantasy so stop trying to fight this battle, because its a battle you can't win. Kill the affair. Expose it. The degree of exposure will depend on the circumstances.

You still haven't mentioned anything about what you're doing to kill the affair. Have you installed any keyloggers or any other computer monitoring software? How about VARs in the vehicle and possibly places in your home? What about trying to get her passwords? What have YOU been doing to investigate who this OM is?


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## MattMatt

falconrap said:


> I've been recently reading this site and learning a lot about the Alpha and Beta traits and reading the MMSL book, and this has come about because nearly two weeks ago my wife dropped the bomb about being unhappy. At the time she said she hadn't considered anything beyond the fact that she just wasn't in love with me anymore, though she still loved me. My first thought was that she might be seeking someone else, or had already done so, but it appears that she has not actually cheated. When she went back to her home state with my daughter (3 - we also have a son who is 7 with ADD/ADHD) she had to deal with the death of her step-grandmother whom she was really close to. She apparently started thinking, while up there, about a guy she dated in high school that she thought she would end up with and started wondering why she was with me.
> 
> I had given her the proposal to list her grievances and what she thought would happen in her ideal marriage (did so the next day), and she responded yesterday with the fact that she doesn't think she can change her feelings for me and that she would like to be amicable and stay together until we can process a divorce. It also appears she will move back to her home state to be with family. We are both 41 so I have made it quite clear to her that I will have no issues moving on, while she will have to deal with being 41, single, with 2 kids. She believes she may be fine without having a man in her life (she's in for a shock). So, last night I talked with her extensively, letting her know how I was unaware that I was being to Beta with her (I display more Alpha at work and do get looks from other women, and let her know that). I mentioned to her how I had read a lot of this material and plan to implement these changes regardless of whether or not they change her's, but asked her to at least not rush to the divorce, and just see what happens and see if she likes the changes and if the spark starts to re-light. She's still wearing the ring, still is "Married" in Facebook, and we continue to sleep in bed (sexless since April).
> 
> During our talk I let her know that I was instilled with a lot of the Beta "nice guy" traits by my Grandmother and I felt I may have over done it with her. I pay the bills and make a good deal of decisions with us, but we still tend to get into the "what do you want to do?" back and forth banter. But I also managed to pull out of her (which is why I think she subconsciously wants me to "get it" and win her back) that he "issue" is that she prefers more outdoorsy kinds of guys. I was denied a lot of these types of activities by my father (he had little interest and tended to sit in his chair a lot) and simply don't know how to do a lot of these things. I do, however, really LOVE these types of activities when I get to doing them. We did the Green Zebra tour at Snowshoe mountain (this is a military grade ATV tour) and was grinning ear to ear. But, having grown up in the Tampa Bay area, most of my outdoorsy stuff has been the beach and parks (thanks Dad...ugh). She also felt I didn't play enough with the kids (our marriage since our daughter has been born consisted of sex once every 3-4 months) which is fair, but when you are constantly thinking about your situation with your wife, you tend to not want to do things with your kids as much as you should.
> 
> I am working to change all of this, but I need advice. She's from WV, I'm from the Tampa Bay area, which is where we currently live. She still thinks she can't changer her feelings, but I did plant the seed that she already did once, and can again, and that couples that try the approaches I have seen here tend to get it back. I can see her struggling with this internally, but she does agree that if I could change and be the type of man she wants (it won't be hard because I would actually like to do these things - camping, trailing, 4x4in, even hunting - I have fished a good bit when younger) it would be a better outcome to fix the marriage than divorce. Any advice I can get, especially from the ladies here, would be great. I have never abused her or struck her. I have been the typical caring safe guy for her, but maybe not enough Alpha. She doesn't seem to thrilled with and though of me instigating touch on any higher level then simple hand on shoulders, back, arm stuff. So I need to be able to get that emotional trigger going before I can use any touch or sexuality to really trigger stronger feelings.
> 
> Sorry about the novel. I did tell her that I don't need her, but I'm not willing to just give up this marriage without fighting for it. Thanks.


Tell her that she can go home to her parents. Then ask her how many times per year she would be able to fly back to visit the children at your house?


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## falconrap

I must have forgotten to mention this, but I found proof (conversation with co-workers that mentioned the PA and when it happened) and sent this to the FIL and MIL. I am steeped into moving on, but I'm not going to move on without taking a crack at stopping this. The FIL will help me get this OM out of the picture. Once that happens, IF she finally snaps out of the fantasy, I will be able to demand that we either divorce or we work this out and heal. I have seen a lot of threads here and no one way works. I can take the easy road and move on, and be party to the destruction of my family. Or I vs. Recognize that she is not herself and needs to be snapped out of Fantasy Island (backwoods edition!) and see if reconciliation is possible. The man-up thing doesn't work with her because she's not thinking clearly. She normally has a deep care for the kids and would normally never let this happen. She is not herself. She's like an alcoholic. I need to show her reality and then step back and see if she is is willing to heal herself or not.

I will say this; since I took her out alone and she had a medical need that we needed to check on, and I insisted on driving her there and being there for her, I have seen so e changes. She usually goes to bed before me because she gets up early to exercise, and I tend to stay up later than I should. She stopped leaving the light on for me several months ago (seems to tie in with OM meeting). She has left the light on for me the last 2 nights. She has been nicer to me, more jovial, and much more prone to smiling too me than she has in months. I think (not getting my hopes up though) that the incident may have opened a crack in her fantasy. Maybe she's wondering if Mr. Wonderful would have done that for her after outing up with what she has done. She knows him from HS, so this might have brought back some thoughts on things he did/didn't do in the past. She's been reading the 5 Love Languages, so I know there is still doubt I her head. I have to force the issue if I have hope of getting her to reconcile.

I am going to be doing what is necessary to get as much info on her antics as possible. But I already have the da**ing evidence now, as does her family. They are pretty determined to stop her from making a huge mistake and they fully support me. The one thing I have learned is that the 180 and man-up stuff work in a lot of situations...but jot every one. I have found that the vast majority of couples that rake the 5 Love Languages and His Needs;Her needs serious and implement them, will recover from anytime of relationship issues. I see the possibility of getting her to agree to this route, but not until Mr. Home Wrecker is out of the picture. If he goes and she still won't budge, then she will have made an enemy that is quite capable of slam ing the door on her and moving on.

Thanks for the advice though. I appreciate everything. People just have to re ember that there is no one single solution that works in all situations. This forum eve. Shows that.


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## falconrap

MattMatt said:


> Tell her that she can go home to her parents. Then ask her how many times per year she would be able to fly back to visit the children at your house?


If I can't get the OM out of the picture soon, or if doing so still doesn't work, I will be doing just that with legal authority.


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## falconrap

Wife talked with the in-laws tonight, for a good while, and their conversation was completely normal (no hints to her). Hopefully, they will get the info I need or take care of the OM themselves.


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## jfv

Why don't you want her to know that you told them? She should know you've exposed her affair to her family so she knows you are willing to play hardball.


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## anchorwatch

jfv said:


> Why don't you want her to know that you told them? She should know you've exposed her affair to her family so she knows you are willing to play hardball.


First expose to the OMW, before your wife.


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## falconrap

anchorwatch said:


> First expose to the OMW, before your wife.


Yes. Thank you.

I need to make the OM go away then play hardball by letting her know that her family knows what she did and don't approve. If I don't break fantasy land first, she'll deny and stay in the EA that has resulted in a PA. I'm just thankfully the dude is in another state so that she isn't constantly exposed to a PA.

There are things going on at home that make me very confident that she isn't rushing (mainly with activities planned for kids that are scheduled). I think a week working this will put us in a better situation to fix this marriage before pulling the plug.


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## jfv

anchorwatch said:


> First expose to the OMW, before your wife.


Got it. thanks


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## Will_Kane

anchorwatch said:


> First expose to the OMW, before your wife.


*Exposure to the other man's wife is key*.

Don't believe anything your wife says about the other man having marital problems, about to be separated, getting divorced, etc. He may be telling your wife those things but they may not be true.

Your wife has been in contact with the other man for a long time, at least for two-plus months before she made her trip back home for a graduation. She had pre-planned to consummate their affair on that trip back home. 

As we discuss this on this forum, her and other man have been and are making plans for their life together. Other man is telling your wife that she must be patient, he will be leaving his wife after school starts, or after they go on that long-planned trip in October, or after one last happy Christmas as a family, or as soon as other man's wife gets the help she needs because she will commit suicide if other man leaves her now, or ... you get the picture.

As for your wife, she has been telling other man she is ready to divorce you as soon as he gives the word. She has been making plans for the destruction of your life as you know it. 

Did she come to you and say, look honey, I am not happy and have not been happy for a long time and would like a divorce so I can find someone else? No, she step by step got involved in this affair, started talking to this guy, started telling this guy she loves him, made plans to have sex with him, carried out those plans to have sex with him, all the while not just lying by omission to you but actually lying when you asked her a direct question about it.

Unbelievably, SHE EVEN TOLD HER CO-WORKERS ABOUT IT, but not you. I don't know what that tells you about the situation, but what it tells me is that SHE IS COMMITTED TO THE OTHER MAN if she is even telling her co-workers about it.

Obviously, your wife wants to wait to get divorced. Other man has told her he's not ready yet. His wife probably is in the same boat you were a short time ago, blissfully unaware that there even are any problems in their marriage.

Exposure to the other man's wife frequently leads to other man throwing your wife under the bus. It lets your wife see his true colors. It also forces his hand and disrupts their plans.

After exposure to other man's wife, then you confront your wife with the evidence that she has been cheating and you tell her to choose you and the marriage or choose other man. If it's other man, you tell her to leave, stop paying for her stuff, and file for divorce.

It is this dose of reality - that there will be no other man to fall back on, that he actually has chosen his wife over her, that she will not have her kids as much as she thought, that she will have to make financial sacrifice and downgrade her lifestyle - that might snap her out of her fantasy world and make her come back to you to try to save your marriage.

The longer you let this play out, the worse your chances of saving the marriage are, and the more pain you get to experience.

You have not shown that you are able to detect your wife's lies. Do not attribute any of her behavior to any of your behavior. It is just as likely, if not more so, that her behavior is based on other man's behavior. When things are going well with other man and their plans seem to be going forward, she will be happy; when things are going bad with him, she will be sad.

You are happy that your wife seems to have appreciated that you took her to the hospital the other night. I have a different interpretation - that she is happy that you still love her and are willing to do things for her after she flat out told you that she definitely is leaving your marriage. She is very happy that your love for her is so unconditional that you will always be there for her as a backup in case her plans with the other man don't work out.

You are making too much out of the crumbs she is leaving you. She went to bed before you and left the light on for you - that's nice, but it is not too big of an effort on her part. It is your reward for being so "amicable," even after you found out about other man.

I'm just trying to get you to see how dire the situation probably is and to impress upon you that the longer you delay giving her a dose of reality to snap her out of the affair, the worse your chances are of saving your marriage.


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## GetTough

alphaomega said:


> Falcon...
> 
> Kudos on the "manning Up" journey.
> 
> However, your biggest mistake is telling her your manning up. I'm assuming you did this to "impress" her for approval?
> 
> Manning up is for you. It's your journey. Not hers.
> 
> Do the MAP. But do it for yourself. She will either like the new and improved you or she won't. Either way, you will be a stronger person for it.
> 
> Btw. Your wife's actions indicate she still sees you as the back up guy. I'm not an advocate of divorce, but in this instance I would mentally get to the point where I tell her..."go already. If your not happy, then go. No reason to drag this out on me while you decide.". But, that's just me. And it takes a while to get to that point in your confidence.


Absolutely.

Men shouldn't "alpha up" to please women, or pick up women. They should do so if they want to improve their lives generally. It's about being a stronger, more confident, more mature man all round. In all aspects of their life. I have a theory that men are typically the ones that would maintain social order historically, and generally still do so today (vast majority of politicians, law enforcement offices are men). In order to maintain social order most effectively men have to judge and respond *appropriately * many times in their day to day lives, especially when dealing with women who test their strength and the appropriateness of their behavior all the time. I believe women are designed by evolution to test and find these effectively leaders in order to propagate the genes of men who are good at maintaining social order. So these men will be good for them and good for their family and extended family (social group), by instilling fairness and justice with kindness, will be great for their kids and safe guys to be with. This is great by the way, I think it's sexy that women are this way. It's very feminine to be flirted with like this, even if it is a bit disrespectful.

For example, just the other night, I'm seated in a bar and a woman I'd be flirting with decides all of a sudden she wants to strap her high heels back on while resting her foot on my pants. Instant judgment call. How does a strong man respond? Lots of possible responses ranging from "mmm that's sexy" to "get the **** off me". What's appropriate? It's clearly a sh1t-test. Only experience and maturity enables guys to respond well to the million situations that happen like this all the time when dating AND in relationships. These are tests that subconsciously tell the woman whether a guy can handle himself in the world, and is fit to lead her family.


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## warlock07

Is she such a prize that you are the working hard to save the marriage while she was/is cheating on you ?


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## falconrap

I get all of this. I am working overtime. I think I have the guy's name and email address now. My goal is to eliminate the OM from the situation as fast as possible. I need to know if he is still married first and how to contact the OMW. Worst case, I can give him the fear that I know who he is and will expose him. That is obvious the back-up plan. If the wife comes out of this fog and realizes what is goin to go down, I want to make sure my actions before she knows what I know, show that I would take her back. I'm waiting to deal with the OM before going all hard ass on her.


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## warlock07

And just notice how wrong you were in assessing her consistently, right from the beginning of the thread. You might want to rethink your approach.


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## GetTough

falconrap said:


> I get all of this. I am working overtime. I think I have the guy's name and email address now. My goal is to eliminate the OM from the situation as fast as possible. I need to know if he is still married first and how to contact the OMW. Worst case, I can give him the fear that I know who he is and will expose him. That is obvious the back-up plan. If the wife comes out of this fog and realizes what is goin to go down, I want to make sure my actions before she knows what I know, show that I would take her back. I'm waiting to deal with the OM before going all hard ass on her.


Often the strongest and most dignified thing you can do if she is cheating on you, is just let her get on with it, file for D, and wait for her to come running back. You can get involved with OM but sometimes this just pushes WW and OM closer together.


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## warlock07

falconrap said:


> I get all of this. I am working overtime. I think I have the guy's name and email address now. My goal is to eliminate the OM from the situation as fast as possible. I need to know if he is still married first and how to contact the OMW. Worst case, I can give him the fear that I know who he is and will expose him. That is obvious the back-up plan. If the wife comes out of this fog and realizes what is goin to go down, I want to make sure my actions before she knows what I know, show that I would take her back. I'm waiting to deal with the OM before going all hard ass on her.


But the problem here is your W. Not the OM. She is the one married to you. It her lies and deception that are the major issue here. You placed her on so high a pedestal that you think she can do no wrong and this was an aberration.

Why do think you can trust her after such a betrayal? Scumbags like OM are plenty a lot.

Don't say that the OM used her or played her. She well knows what she did. She is not a naive teenager


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## lordmayhem

falconrap said:


> I get all of this. I am working overtime. I think I have the guy's name and email address now. My goal is to eliminate the OM from the situation as fast as possible. I need to know if he is still married first and how to contact the OMW. Worst case, I can give him the fear that I know who he is and will expose him. That is obvious the back-up plan. If the wife comes out of this fog and realizes what is goin to go down, I want to make sure my actions before she knows what I know, show that I would take her back. I'm waiting to deal with the OM before going all hard ass on her.


Ok, it looks like a good plan of action. But one of the first rules of exposure is NEVER warn one of the Affair Partners (APs) that you will expose. Because if the OM has a wife (OMW) or a long term girl friend/fiance (OMGF), then the OM will have a chance to spin his story to her and friends and family: That you're a psycho, jealous, vindictive, batsh!t crazy ex husband - and not to listen to anything that you say. We've seen this happen on this very board.


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## lordmayhem

warlock07 said:


> Don't say that the OM used her or played her. She well knows what she did. She is not a naive teenager


:iagree:

IKR? We see this all the time. The BS has their WS up on a pedestal, and thinks EVERYTHING is the OM/OWs fault. That the OM preyed on their WW because they were "vulnerable", etc. No WW can be taken advantage of unless they allow it. If it's a male coworker, a simple "Stop bothering me, I'm a married woman, and if you continue to do so, I will report you for sexual harassment". Same goes for some other man. But no, they always think its okay to receive the advances of another man because they feel that boost in their ego.


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## Will_Kane

lordmayhem said:


> Ok, it looks like a good plan of action. But one of the first rules of exposure is NEVER warn one of the Affair Partners (APs) that you will expose. Because if the OM has a wife (OMW) or a long term girl friend/fiance (OMGF), then the OM will have a chance to spin his story to her and friends and family: That you're a psycho, jealous, vindictive, batsh!t crazy ex husband - and not to listen to anything that you say. We've seen this happen on this very board.


Threatening other man that you will blow up his world works against betrayed husbands more than it works for them. Just gives them a warning of your plans and lets them pre-empt your plans. 

Best to just blow up other man's world without warning him first.

Find out how to go straight to other man's wife and tell her that he is cheating and you have proof.

If you can, while you're at it, find out how to contact his family members (mom, dad, sibs) and friends and expose it to them as well. "Your son is carrying on an adulterous affair with my wife, leading to the breakup of my family and his. I have proof of this."


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## jfv

Falconrap, you should proly just file for divorce yourself and see how she reacts to that, worse case scenario is you get the drop on her and start moving on with your life. What is the purpose of getting the OM 'out of the picture'? Is it just to eliminate him as an option? Even if you succeed, It does not change the fact that she did not get rid of him herself, which still makes you her second choice. She chose another man over you. How could you ever trust her as a life partner and ally after something like that.? Just curious.


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## falconrap

Ok. I understand how I got into this situation with her. It is also clear that she has had second thoughts. Why the heck would she accept and start reading the 5 Love Languages? The whole assumption here, from you all is that I had no clue. I suspected something might be up with a sudden change in her behaviour very early in the year. I did hold out hope that she would not do this, but I can see she has changed. Believe me...I live with her everyday and she is NOT the same right now. The OM is her ex from high school. This isn't just some dude she's cheating on me with. She admitted that she always saw herself with this guy. If that fantasy comes crashing down on her, she will have to rethink. All of the crap she is doing can be traced back, in information that I have uncovered, to just several months back. She's been upset about her weight and the kids drive her nuts. This is her escape.

My job, as the man hat vowed to be with her through thick and thin, is to try and remove the OM from her life and try to get her to seal reality. If I can do that, I believe our marriage is recoverable. My main task right now is to see if he is married. If yes, try to contact OMW. If I can't do that, then, and only then, will I contact OM and push the issue there. If he is not married now, then my only hope is scaring the guy off, and hope my wife can still come out of the fog. Otherwise, it's a divorce.

As I said, she clearly had a sudden change in attitude toward me, and then, not before, started making the rounds leading to the PA. If I can get the old person back I am confident we can reconcile. Right now, that is the obvious big if.


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## warlock07

I really hope you are right. But I feel that you are going the wrong way about it.


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## GetTough

falconrap said:


> Ok. I understand how I got into this situation with her. It is also clear that she has had second thoughts. Why the heck would she accept and start reading the 5 Love Languages? The whole assumption here, from you all is that I had no clue. I suspected something might be up with a sudden change in her behaviour very early in the year. I did hold out hope that she would not do this, but I can see she has changed. Believe me...I live with her everyday and she is NOT the same right now. The OM is her ex from high school. This isn't just some dude she's cheating on me with. She admitted that she always saw herself with this guy. If that fantasy comes crashing down on her, she will have to rethink. All of the crap she is doing can be traced back, in information that I have uncovered, to just several months back. She's been upset about her weight and the kids drive her nuts. This is her escape.
> 
> My job, as the man hat vowed to be with her through thick and thin, is to try and remove the OM from her life and try to get her to seal reality. If I can do that, I believe our marriage is recoverable. My main task right now is to see if he is married. If yes, try to contact OMW. If I can't do that, then, and only then, will I contact OM and push the issue there. If he is not married now, then my only hope is scaring the guy off, and hope my wife can still come out of the fog. Otherwise, it's a divorce.
> 
> As I said, she clearly had a sudden change in attitude toward me, and then, not before, started making the rounds leading to the PA. If I can get the old person back I am confident we can reconcile. Right now, that is the obvious big if.


Be prepared to hear stuff like "you're stalking me", "you're interfering in my life", "you're being abusive", possibly her getting a restraining order on you. Remember, you have NO initial SAY and NO initial opportunity to defend yourself if she decides to ask a judge for a RO. So just be careful how you handle yourself around her and anyone she's involved with. Avoid putting much in writing or email, especially if you are angry.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2

Do you know that every single person believes their wife "is not that type".


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## Jonesey

Lifeisnotsogood2 said:


> Do you know that every single person believes their wife "is not that type".


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## lordmayhem

falconrap said:


> I did hold out hope that she would not do this, but I can see she has changed. Believe me...I live with her everyday and she is NOT the same right now. The OM is her ex from high school. This isn't just some dude she's cheating on me with. She admitted that she always saw herself with this guy. If that fantasy comes crashing down on her, she will have to rethink. All of the crap she is doing can be traced back, in information that I have uncovered, to just several months back. She's been upset about her weight and the kids drive her nuts. This is her escape.


We've seen this situation here quite a few times already, usually a WW reconnecting with an old flame from high school, this happened to me also. F-102 posted a very good progression about how quickly this type of affair progresses.




F-102 said:


> It may have gone something like this:
> 
> They first start catching up, and it's all "How you been doing? What have you been up to?"
> 
> Then it would have morphed into talk about:
> 
> What they've been doing since they parted
> Their significant others since they parted
> Their families
> Their favorite music, movies, etc.
> Their spouses
> You
> Your job
> How your job keeps you away
> How lonely she gets when you're away
> How she looks forward to their conversations all the time now
> How she loves talking to him
> How she gets "bored" talking to you
> How you don't always listen
> How you're not "perfect"
> How you can be so insensitive sometimes
> How she wonders if she would have stayed with him
> How he understands her
> How he knows how to make her feel good
> How you fail at this
> How you are such an a**hole
> How she feels young again
> How she hasn't felt this happy with you in so long
> How he's a better man than you'll ever be
> How she wants to see him again
> How they can meet under the radar
> How she's thought of leaving you
> How she ever could have fallen for a jerk like you
> How he's her soul mate
> How she made a big mistake leaving him
> How she made an even bigger mistake marrying you
> How they were meant to be together...
> 
> ...get the picture?


The question you should ask yourself is this: Do you want to wait out this affair, while being her back up plan in case it doesn't work out with OM?


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## lordmayhem

warlock07 said:


> I really hope you are right. But I feel that you are going the wrong way about it.


They always have to learn the hard way, don't they? They all think their situation is unique, while to us, it repeats over and over, just different players.


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## falconrap

Thanks for all of the advice guys. I'm sure most of you are aware of the MLC fog. This appears to be a classic case. Everyone is the type to cheat when they get into this fog. Before this, she was not the type that would just around and cheat. Some people are natural cheaters, others aren't. She isn't the natural cheating type. I am well aware anyone can do this under the right circumstances.

I am ready to get the OM out of the way and see what happens. While I hope for her to snap out and want to reconcile, I will, on the side, be preparing for the worst. Believe me, I hear you all loud and clear. I'm just hopeful that my marriage can be on that is saved. For that too happen, she, and she alone, must be willing to do that, and that won't happen until the fantasy is shattered; my number 1 job.


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## snap

falconrap said:


> Thanks for all of the advice guys. I'm sure most of you are aware of the MLC fog. This appears to be a classic case. Everyone is the type to cheat when they get into this fog. Before this, she was not the type that would just around and cheat. Some people are natural cheaters, others aren't. She isn't the natural cheating type.


Oh please. What's the "natural cheating type"? Someone who's easy to spot when cheating? That's just unskilled cheating type.

Your wife has proven she would cheat around. Yes, she is *that* type.


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## falconrap

I'm the natural type. How sanctimonious of you. Some people are cheaters and always will be. Others get driven down the path and, at some point get all caught up in the whirlwind. I've read some stuff already, and it's clear she didn't want to do this. She's been under a lot of pressure from work, plus the kids, the desire not to be trapped here, and us growing apart. Some of you want to shove everyone into a little cookie cutter template that works for all. It doesn't work that way.

Pleas, some of you aren't helping at this point and are just trying to make yourselves look good at my expense. I need advice and guidance, not cut downs.


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## snap

You need to stop viewing your wife as a victim of circumstances, it clouds your judgement and misplaces your effort. 

You think your circumstances are unique and so should be the treatment. The truth however is there's nothing unique about you, your wife or her affair. Everyone has work, kids and stress.

Not that I am in position to insist on anything, but it's just painful watching you shoot yourself in the foot.


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## falconrap

Well, my current action plan is the following:
1) Remove OM from picture if possible.
2) If OM is removed see if wife is willing to reconcile.
3) While this happens, contact divorce lawyer, collect damning information, and prepare myself and children for divorce.
4) Work pressure from key family members to help her realize what she is doing is selfish and help to try to get her out of the MLC fog.
5) If 1,2, and 4 fail to get her to do a 180 on this process, and I'm not waiting very long for it, then I will proceed to file.

I think my plan is ok considering what is happening. If she can't get over this guy, then I'm done. I have had opportunities to cheat on her for the past year, and have refused to do so. I'm made of stern stuff. If you believe a specific path is better, please spell it out and I will give it all consideration. I have seen the "remove the OM" path both work and fail. I wish their was an easy way to say she will or will not come back too me, but I am going to try while also taking steps to protect me and the kids.


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## falconrap

Well, my current action plan is the following:
1) Remove OM from picture if possible.
2) If OM is removed see if wife is willing to reconcile.
3) While this happens, contact divorce lawyer, collect damning information, and prepare myself and children for divorce.
4) Work pressure from key family members to help her realize what she is doing is selfish and help to try to get her out of the MLC fog.
5) If 1,2, and 4 fail to get her to do a 180 on this process, and I'm not waiting very long for it, then I will proceed to file.

I think my plan is ok considering what is happening. If she can't get over this guy, then I'm done. I have had opportunities to cheat on her for the past year, and have refused to do so. I'm made of stern stuff. If you believe a specific path is better, please spell it out and I will give it all consideration. I have seen the "remove the OM" path both work and fail. I wish their was an easy way to say she will or will not come back too me, but I am going to try while also taking steps to protect me and the kids.


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## KathyGriffinFan

falconrap said:


> I'm the natural type. How sanctimonious of you. Some people are cheaters and always will be. Others get driven down the path and, at some point get all caught up in the whirlwind. I've read some stuff already, and it's clear she didn't want to do this. She's been under a lot of pressure from work, plus the kids, the desire not to be trapped here, and us growing apart. Some of you want to shove everyone into a little cookie cutter template that works for all. It doesn't work that way.
> 
> Pleas, some of you aren't helping at this point and are just trying to make yourselves look good at my expense. I need advice and guidance, not cut downs.


You've stated you're a computer guru, but can't find a way to contact the mod's or change your subscription settings. 
You've stated you KNOW she's not having any type of A, while others say you were fooling yourself and glossed over it too quickly. 
You have been wrong when you thought you were oh so right. 

You're on a site that has people willing to help you and offer their immense knowledge. Stop fighting it, making excuses, and getting defensive. 

You'd like to believe your situation is unique. I don't think there is a person out there that wants to hear that your situation has been seen time and time again, but yet it's still the truth. 
I hope you understand these people want to help you, rather than be "right".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

The OM can/will always appear again. Wouldn't it be wise to make her chose you when he is still in the picture ?


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## warlock07

KathyGriffinFan said:


> You've stated you're a computer guru, but can't find a way to contact the mod's or change your subscription settings.
> You've stated you KNOW she's not having any type of A, while others say you were fooling yourself and glossed over it too quickly.
> You have been wrong when you thought you were oh so right.
> 
> You're on a site that has people willing to help you and offer their immense knowledge. Stop fighting for it, making excuses, and getting defensive.
> 
> You'd like to believe your situation is unique. I don't think there is a person out there that wants to hear that your situation has been seen time and time again, but yet it's still the truth.
> I hope you understand these people want to help you, rather than be "right".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Without trying to sound condescending, OP isn't at that point mentally. He is trying to do what he thinks is the best for his family. He is too desperate to not lose his family(ho won't be ?) to look at the situation more objectively.

He will soon reach the stage where the stuff said here makes more sense but the sooner he gets there, the better.


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## Plan 9 from OS

falconrap said:


> I'm the natural type. How sanctimonious of you. Some people are cheaters and always will be. *Others get driven down the path and, at some point get all caught up in the whirlwind. I've read some stuff already, and it's clear she didn't want to do this.* She's been under a lot of pressure from work, plus the kids, the desire not to be trapped here, and us growing apart. Some of you want to shove everyone into a little cookie cutter template that works for all. It doesn't work that way.
> 
> Pleas, some of you aren't helping at this point and are just trying to make yourselves look good at my expense. I need advice and guidance, not cut downs.


You can't be serious. No one is driven down a path to cheat. A spouse can be a poor marriage partner and ultimately drive the other spouse down the path towards divorce. But no one gets driven down the path to cheating. If you think you drove your wife to cheat, then you have a misunderstanding of what's going on here. You are making a lot of excuses for why your wife cheated on you. Stop trying to empathize with your wife over her cheating. There are zero excuses for it. She lost any moral standing by her choice.

Personally, if you have the proof of her infidelity, you need to expose it to her and have it out once and for all. Nothing changes until YOU take action. Trying to do this behind her back with by getting the FIL and MIL to do your job is inexcusable. If you want to save this marriage, then YOU need to be the one to fight for it. YOU have to stop coddling your wife and let her know the pain you are going through. Napalm her with the truth and make her feel like the cheating wench that she is. Shame and embarrassment are effective tools to bring her out of her fog.


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## falconrap

Ok, honestly, I understand where people are coming from. I'm not coddling her. She has admitted to the EA with the guy, but not the PA. I have already been very vocal with her about trying to save our marriage. She is reading the 5 Love Languages because of this, but the OM is still in her mind. He needs to irrevocably dump her for me to stand a chance. I am working in the background as if there is no chance. I get this. In my state she will be forced to provide equal time-sharing, and adultery will give me the edge.

Instead of making judgements on me, tell me, step by step, what you think I should do. I will listen to all advice. Any chance I have to save this marriage starts at the OM. It has to be over, or I have no chance to reconcile with her barring a fog lifting moment. If I don't get the OM out of the picture with a few days, I will file and force the issue, and go all 180 on her a**. If this was a case where she wouldn't tell me about the other guy and I could confront her that I discovered him, then yes, I could see the other route working.

She doesn't know I now who the guy is, and what his email address is. I am waiting to find out if there is an OMW. If so I will need to find contact info and break this up that way. If not I will confront the guy and see if the threat of exposing him works. If not, then I will fully confront her with everything I have on the guy and force her to start thinking about her choice between me and her. I have already told her that I will not be her Plan B. If the fog continues, I will serve papers and force her to make the ultimate choice. She thinks she can just take the children up north permanently, but my state laws say, too bad so sad, especially when one of the two has cheated. I will stay clean and do what I need to do in the background for myself and my kids.


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## warlock07

Does she know that you know of the physical aspect of the affair ?


----------



## survivorwife

falconrap said:


> Ok, honestly, I understand where people are coming from. I'm not coddling her. She has admitted to the EA with the guy, but not the PA. I have already been very vocal with her about trying to save our marriage. She is reading the 5 Love Languages because of this, but the OM is still in her mind. *He needs to irrevocably dump her for me to stand a chance. *I am working in the background as if there is no chance. I get this. In my state she will be forced to provide equal time-sharing, and adultery will give me the edge.


Actually no, that would be incorrect. SHE needs to "irrevocably dump" HIM for your marriage to have a chance. He isn't the one married to you and he made no vows to YOU to be faithful. SHE did. Therefore, if he were to dump her, there is no reason to believe that she would not simply find someone else to fill the void at some future date. However, if she makes the decision to dump HIM to save your marriage with full knowledge of what this betrayal has done to you and your marriage and then makes every effort to repair the damage, then you might have a chance.


----------



## mary35

What if she is reading the 5 languages to improve her relationship with the OM?

It seems to me that perhaps the best chance for your marriage is that she decide to let go of the OM - and not you getting him out of the picture. Even if you manage it - she will still be in the fog of "what could have been". Just a thought!


----------



## falconrap

I have confronted her to get her to make that decision, but she puts her shields up. Apparently she has always had it in the back of her mind that this guy is who she would end up with. It appears that, last August, he noted that he would be available (this is why I need to figure out if he's married or not). This then started with the usual stuff. I believe this opening, combined with her entering an MLC is how she got this determination to leave me for him. My best chance is for the guy to show his true colors and dump her, then for me to demand of her to make a choice to either reconcile or be on her own. If she still has him on her mind, no talking to her will convince her that she's not on the right path. She knows, in convos, that she is being selfish. She is very conflicted, and her actions and talk show that. But if I push the divorce with the guy still there, she's likely gone.

Unless she suddenly wakes up from the fog, and realizes how wrong she has been (not likely, but some have seen this happen - ain't holding my breath for this), then how can I compete with her fantasy? I can't. If he dumps her again, as he did in high school, it may finally seal the breach and send her the signal that he will never be the one and is a rat bastard for even trying to have an affair with a married woman that has 2 kids. She must be able to see reality again, or the odds are that it is over no matter what I do. This is the specific pickle that I am in.

If he dumps her, I might have a chance without even filing. Otherwise, filing is my last hope, and not a very good one.


----------



## falconrap

mary35 said:


> What if she is reading the 5 languages to improve her relationship with the OM?
> 
> It seems to me that perhaps the best chance for your marriage is that she decide to let go of the OM - and not you getting him out of the picture. Even if you manage it - she will still be in the fog of "what could have been". Just a thought!


That's fine. Once she absorbs the information, it may actually click something in her mind and snap her out. If not, it can be there for her if the OM goes away and she later decides on reconciliation. I'm under no delusion that this alone will bring her back, but many couples that have gone through this book have done just that, even when one hated the other. Love is a choice. If I can get her to choose to work things out with me, we will reconcile. But her fantasy with OM must be brought to an end.


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## TDSC60

He was her first love and she has fantasized about him since they were together. He dumped her. The love of her life dumped her. All it took was him telling her that she was the one and he made the biggest mistake of his life by dumping her and your marriage was history. Unfortunately, you always were Plan B. You were the one she settled for.

I think it probably went physical when she was back home. I don't think OM is the key. She has to be the one to make the decision on her own. Even if OM disappears or tells her he just can't do this right now, she will resent you for ruining her second chance at happiness with her "soulmate". If he comes fishing again one or two years from now you will be back in the same mess.

I am afraid you are in a no-win situation. But stranger things have happened. You have a plan and I hope it works, but you need to set a time limit and you have to be ready to walk away.


----------



## falconrap

TDSC60 said:


> He was her first love and she has fantasized about him since they were together. He dumped her. The love of her life dumped her. All it took was him telling her that she was the one and he made the biggest mistake of his life by dumping her and your marriage was history. Unfortunately, you always were Plan B. You were the one she settled for.
> 
> I think it probably went physical when she was back home. I don't think OM is the key. She has to be the one to make the decision on her own. Even if OM disappears or tells her he just can't do this right now, she will resent you for ruining her second chance at happiness with her "soulmate". If he comes fishing again one or two years from now you will be back in the same mess.
> 
> I am afraid you are in a no-win situation. But stranger things have happened. You have a plan and I hope it works, but you need to set a time limit and you have to be ready to walk away.


I suspect this. And I agree. I am not going to let her drag me on. But I do believe that if I had kept her happy and her needs fulfilled, she would not have been tempted. I could be wrong, but only she knows. Barring her realization that this guy can never be the guy for her (he's clearly a dirt ball) the best solution would be for him to unceremoniously dump her. Twice bitten may be the only way to break her from this.

I'm not stupid. I know the odds aren't in my favor right now, and long term may always be an issue. But I either try, or just give up and put my kids through hell. I will give it only enough time to see if I can stop this, but no more. At some point, I'll have to call it quits and move on.


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## falconrap

As I was re-reading some stuff about the 180, and realize that I have neglected to mention that I have, in fact, been doing things along those lines outside of what I have been doing in trying to get the OM to vacate. I have been regularly taking the kids places and playing with them, while basically ignoring the wife at times, mostly talking only when there is something of interest or need. Since I believe her love language is Quality Time, I have also looked her straight in the eye when she does talk too me, and then I move on. Little bits of, yes, I can change to meet you needs, combined with, no I don't need you. Showing that I have no problem being alone with the kids and having fun also has to be having some effect in the way she is seeing me. I should note that despite constantly stating she is going on a diet, she continues to eat poorly at times, and is eating ice cream every night. I know this whole thing is eating her up.

Just wanted to make sure people here knew that I wasn't just doing the things I have written before.


----------



## Acabado

Spend a few bucks to hire a PI to dig into OM's life. After all chances are he could become your children's step dad.
Blow his world, methodically, systematically, no rest.


----------



## falconrap

Acabado said:


> Spend a few bucks to hire a PI to dig into OM's life. After all chances are he could become your children's step dad.
> Blow his world, methodically, systematically, no rest.


I may do that. I'm using other resources right now to try to hunt down info on the guy. I have a feeling he's still married but told my wife that he's leaving her. I need to know. Telling the OMW is something I feel the need to do. But knowing what kind of person this is, as great importance involving my kids.


----------



## lordmayhem

falconrap said:


> I suspect this. And I agree. I am not going to let her drag me on. But I do believe that if I had kept her happy and her needs fulfilled, she would not have been tempted. I could be wrong, but only she knows.


Don't believe it was your fault. Sometimes its just the thrill of being wanted by another man who isn't her husband. Being wanted is a basic human need, and after being with you for years, being wanted by you just wasn't enough for her. In fact, it's expected of you and so she took it for granted. Some just want that outside validation. I suggest you read this thread from a cheater forum if you're not hurting too bad. Just a warning, it could trigger you.

Affair Discussion Forum • View topic - Am I alone?


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## falconrap

lordmayhem said:


> Don't believe it was your fault. Sometimes its just the thrill of being wanted by another man who isn't her husband. Being wanted is a basic human need, and after being with you for years, being wanted by you just wasn't enough for her. In fact, it's expected of you and so she took it for granted. Some just want that outside validation. I suggest you read this thread from a cheater forum if you're not hurting too bad. Just a warning, it could trigger you.
> 
> Affair Discussion Forum • View topic - Am I alone?


Thanks. I have started moving into the acceptance phase and I now fully understand that, wile the state of our marriage was a 50/50 type thing, the affair is 100% on her. Once I deal with the OM, in whatever way I end up doing so, I will begin to make a full push to move on. At that point she'll have to make the decision if our family and her ultimate happiness are worth fixing our marriage and reconciling. She can either realize that she will never be really happy until she deals with her issues, or she will go through periods of happiness and being miserable as she repeats the cycle. If the fog lifts, she's smart enough to realize that our problems can be fixed, hence the 5 Love Languages seed. If not, I will move forward with my life and make sure my children suffer as little as possible for her mistake.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2

The OM has a FB account. look at his FB to see if he is married and who his wife is. If you can't see his page due to security, look through your wife's year book and find a popular girl from shool. Then friend him as that person. Nobody turns down a good looking HS student as a friend. At this point you will be able to see his life. Find out who the OMW is and send her a message.


Good luck.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2

The OM has a FB account. look at his FB to see if he is married and who his wife is. If you can't see his page due to security, look through your wife's year book and find a popular girl from shool. Then friend him as that person. Nobody turns down a good looking HS student as a friend. At this point you will be able to see his life. Find out who the OMW is and send her a message.


Good luck.


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## GetTough

>>It has to be over, or I have no chance to reconcile with her barring a fog lifting moment.

No, the only way her fantasy with OM will ever be broken is if she tries him to its conclusion and realizes you are better. SHE has to decide, and that's the ONLY way she can. That's one reason (among many) I believe (in most circumstances) it's better to simply let a cheater go, and not interfere with them or OM at all. File for D, let them get on with it. Then wait. Nearly everything to do with trying to get OM out of the picture is unattractive. You set yourself up as your wife's enemy. It can cause a lot of pain she will associate with you, esp. if you ruin her reputation with family and friends. Yes she deserves it, but that's not the point. The point is to be pragmatic. You cannot keep someone who doesn't want to be with you, and you cannot make them want to be with you by taking away something they want. It smacks of jealousy, possessiveness and controlling tendencies. It usually pushes WW and OM closer together. It is often very undignified. Yes you'll teach her a lesson but most of all it is weak because it shows you need her. That would be unattractive on it's own but imagine how unattractive it is that you need and want a cheater? You can do better and you should want that. IMO you should forget her, do the 180, focus on self-improvement, making sure you're a great guy and leave her in no doubt she's losing you, and let her OM illusion die a natural death. (They almost ALWAYS do unless in your pain and anger you drive her further away).


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## falconrap

Well, I've seen this argued both ways. My goal isn't to humiliate her. I am being discrete with the FIL and MIL, and won't take it beyond getting the info I need to contact the OMW, if the dude is still married. Her parents will always know, but they are more concerned about the grand kids and seeing us piece it back together. If the OM was local, I would actually push her to decide and file. Since the guy is in a far away state, if we go to divorce, the kids will be torn between two parents in different states and the mess it entails. While I may get the same result, it will take longer, will involve a lot more pain for everyone, including her, and be a total mess. Without kids, or the distance issue, it would be less messy. I understand she will be prone to hating me for causing the split. There is pain everywhere now. She still hasn't even told me what happened.

There really is no right answer for this. There are pluses and minuses to every decision I can make on this. I have seen good come of this method, as well as bad. I have seen you method do the same. If I can get the guy to just split and not have to go any further, then I can minimize the pain directed back at me.

Look, I know everyone has my best interest, and I know I have no responsibility to save a cheater from themselves. But I swore an oath that I don't take likely. If I let her do this on her own, she will pay for it dearly, and may have difficulty ever recovering (this will damage her career, her family, the kids, everyone). This path is the one likely to do the least long term damage to her and our family. But, as I said, there are no absolutes in this. Some marriages recover, some never do. I really have no issue taking a stand to protect my kids, and I let her know that. It doesn't have to be about her.


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## GetTough

>>I really have no issue taking a stand to protect my kids, and I let her know that. It doesn't have to be about her.

It doesn't have to be, but it is. And the kid rationalization doesn't change that or change the way that she'll perceive it. You can't convince anyone you want them back for the kid's sake. Whether you use the kid argument or not, you're still begging for her back. That sounds manipulative on top of needy, even if it isn't. Deeply, deeply unattractive. Don't do it.


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## Will_Kane

I agree with your plan.

First, consult with an attorney to find out how to keep your wife from taking your kids out of state and what you should do to maximize your chances for custody as well as how to protect yourself financially. Do not tell your wife you are doing this.

Next, get rid of the other man. Find out if he is married. If so, expose to his wife. Apologize for being the bearer of bad news, but you feel that she has the right to know and, that if you were in her situation, you would want to know. Let her know that your wife and other man have been in an emotional affair for months and you also have proof it was physical.

Immediately after exposing to the other man's wife, confront your wife. Tell your wife that you love her and always have loved her, but that you refuse to continue in a marriage in which she is carrying on an affair. Tell her that you want to go on with your marriage, but you will do so only under conditions that are suitable to you. Tell her that you cannot control her, that you can only control yourself, what you are willing to accept in a marriage and what you are not, and how you react to your wife's actions. Tell her you KNOW it was a physical affair, that you have proof (do not tell her specifically what you know or how you know it), and that she has five minutes to agree to your conditions or you will file for divorce. These are the conditions I recommend:

She ceases all contact with other man immediately and forever. She handwrites other man a "no contact" letter stating how horribly ashamed she is of her behavior, how terrible she feels for risking losing her family, marriage, and husband, which are the most important things in the world to her, and that if other man ever contacts her again, she will file harassment charges against him.

She gives you complete access to all communication devices and accounts, all passwords, and agrees to let you know her whereabouts 24/7.

She gets tested for STDs and gives you the results.

She comes clean with the entire truth about the affair and tells you as much of the truth as you want, whatever details you want, about the affair. If you have any doubts, she will take a polygraph.

You may want to add other conditions besides these, like her writing you a letter of apology and/or her getting rid of all clothes she wore while with the other man.

If she doesn't agree to your conditions, file for divorce. Many of these conditions are not hard to meet at all and are actually normal in most marriages - not having contact with someone you've cheated with; letting your spouse have access to your phone, computer, email, and facebook accounts (why wouldn't you do this if you have nothing to hide?); telling your spouse where you're going and what you're doing (isn't this just common courtesy between family members?)

What to expect: She will not agree to this within five minutes. She will tell you "no way, let's divorce." Then she will call other man. By this time, other man might even be calling her. She will find out you exposed to other man's wife. She will be enraged that you told other man's wife and say stuff like, "I know you want to hurt me, but I can't believe you would try to hurt an innocent victim like other man's wife." Do not engage in her argument. Just tell her calmly that all you did was tell the truth and that other man's wife had a right to know the truth. Your wife probably will storm out of the house and go stay in a hotel, she may go back to her home state to be with her parents, she may try to shack up with other man.

Separate your finances and cut her off financially. Ask her to move out and get her own apartment. Let her pay for her own car, her own phone, her apartment, etc.

Throughout all of this, remain calm, cool, confident. Do not raise your voice, argue, cry, beg, or plead.


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## Will_Kane

After you confront her, tell her if she wants a divorce, she should GTFO of your house immediately and offer to buy her a plane ticket and arrange for a taxi to take her to other man's house. Tell her if he loves her so much, you're sure he will be glad to have her.


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## Will_Kane

falconrap said:


> As I was re-reading some stuff about the 180, and realize that I have neglected to mention that I have, in fact, been doing things along those lines outside of what I have been doing in trying to get the OM to vacate. I have been regularly taking the kids places and playing with them, while basically ignoring the wife at times, mostly talking only when there is something of interest or need. Since I believe her love language is Quality Time, I have also looked her straight in the eye when she does talk too me, and then I move on. Little bits of, yes, I can change to meet you needs, combined with, no I don't need you. Showing that I have no problem being alone with the kids and having fun also has to be having some effect in the way she is seeing me. I should note that despite constantly stating she is going on a diet, she continues to eat poorly at times, and is eating ice cream every night. I know this whole thing is eating her up.
> 
> Just wanted to make sure people here knew that I wasn't just doing the things I have written before.


When you confront your wife after consulting a lawyer and exposing to other man's wife, don't bring up any of this type of stuff. Don't get bogged down talking about your love language, or her love language, or how you saw a spark of the old her the other day, or how she wants to be "amicable." Do what you have to do to force her out of her fantasy, to force other man to show his true colors, and to resume your marriage. Stick to the basics: "meet my conditions or get out and go live somewhere else, I'll take you to other man's myself if that's what you want, but I'm not putting up with your affair any longer."

Also don't let her sidetrack you with talking about how this or that is going to hurt the kids, and don't you get sidetracked by it. Tell the kids mommy and daddy are fighting, it has nothing to do with them, mommy and daddy both love them, and everything will be ok, mommy and daddy both always will be there for them.

Don't overanalyze this. Your kids are headed for a divorced situation if you do nothing. Your kids will get over it if mommy leaves for a week and then comes back and reconciles with you because other man threw her under the bus. Keep your focus on the big picture, not that your kids are temporarily upset that mommy got mad and left for a few nights.


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## OldWolf57

I like your plan. We always say, get the pos out of the picrture first.


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## falconrap

Ok folks. I just got information back from her family that completely changes everything. They told me that one of her sisters knew about tis and had been warning her for some time. They did find out the OM is divorced with a couple of kids. But the thing that really changes all of this is that we all noticed that she hasn't been right since our second child was born. When the first one was born, she was all happy and teary eyed, as a new mother would be expected to act. When the second child was born, however, she was very much unhappy looking. She didn't seem at all enthused. She has been unhappy the entire time since. We have all noticed it, but not a one of use put it together that she may be suffering from residual depression and may have had full blow postpartum. Combine that with the MLC time frame, and everything makes since.

Nothing has seemed to make her happy these last three years, and this OM may be her little anchor to what she perceives will be happiness. Unfortunately, if I don't get her help, this will only make it worse and could put her into a high depression state, maybe even make her suicidal. After our second child her libido dropped to nothing and she did not but gain weight constantly eating.

The family is going to try to discreetly work on her through the one sister and we are going to try to get her to see a doctor. I have to continue to work on the OM, but in a way that doesn't trigger her to go into a deeper state. Any advice would be welcomed. I have one anonymous way in mind, but not sure how I can drive them apart without her doing a deep dive into depression. I just can't believe I didn't piece this together earlier when the signs were all there, and I even worried about it during the first few months after birth. I feel a deep pit in my stomach that I may have let my wife down when she needed me most.

Any help, thoughts, or suggestions are certainly welcome. And thanks for all the help so far.


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## OldWolf57

Don't beat yourself up over it now.That won't help.
And since more of the family know she has not been right since the birth, you need to let her know everyone in the family noticed.
So you want her to go to IC
.Your plan now should also be to let her know her parents know of the affair, and how she has seem to be depressed since the birth.
Let her know you all wan her to get some help before she blowup a family bc of her state of mind.


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## falconrap

I have to be careful how I do this so that I don't drive her further under before getting her help. I'm trying not to beat myself up over this.. It's hard knowing that I knew something was wrong but attributed to he feelings over her weight gain. I should have realized, after she lost 20 lbs. And was only briefly happy, that something else was wrong. But I'm feeling a sense of empowerment now. I feel I may actually have gotten to the root of the problem and can finally get her the help she needs. Her sister is going to try to hint to her what is happening and try to get her moving in the right direction, and I will find the right time to bring it all up.

I am considering direct contact with the OM and letting him know, but I don't know if that is the right route to get him to back off for now. Any suggestions from anyone on this? I know there is no right answer, and nothing is a given, but any guidance might help.

Thanks again.


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## falconrap

Once I have a little more information (hopefully tonight) and see how the sister's contact goes, I'm sending the POS OM a firmly worded letter on her current depression, what a POS he is for trying to poach a woman with children, and that I will expose him to everyone. I wish he still had a wife, but the threat of exposing this behavior my make him think twice about the impact it could have on his own custody rights.


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## anchorwatch

Falcon, don't threaten him with exposure do it.


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## falconrap

My message states that her family knows what has happened. Unfortunately, until I can get some other leads, that level of exposure, and the threat to let everyone know, is all I can do.

If I find our more, I can change the message up and expose him to other people. The fact he'll know he would be entering a hostile family environment with her, combine with the threat of having to deal with a depressed woman and her kids, should be enough. I should know more about him tonight, but if not, I'll prepare the family for the event and pull the trigger, figuratively speaking.

The conversation with her will be the biggest thing I need to work on.


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## TDSC60

One scenario you may not have considered - it is entirely possible that the OM actually does consider her "the one that got away". He may be ready to fight for her regardless of what you or her family tries.

If this is the case then it will be the "two lovers against the cruel world" and you might as well toss in the towel now.


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## falconrap

That's always a possibility. However, I noted in one conversation that she hadn't been receiving any texts lately and wondered if he cared (this is when she arrived in the state). He of course said he did. The fact that his communications with her seem sporadic, doesn't indicate too me that she's the love lost that he's fighting for. More like the piece of a** he thinks he can hook. I'll know more once I dig through the other info. If he fights, it will be nasty. He's not getting her without a fight. Getting her treated for depression will certainly help remove the fog over her now.

In any case, we'll see.


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## falconrap

Learned some stuff and and some interesting observations of her yesterday. First I learned that the OM was cheated on by his wife and admitted to her that he didn't want to do anything until she was single. So apparently he does know the pain involved and has a guilty conscience about all of this. Should make the OM contact pretty effective, unless he steels himself and tries to fight for her. But I know now his FB ID, so, worst case scenario, I could use her login to let all of his friends know what he's doing. Ah...sweet justice that would be.

The interesting thing is what I saw with my wife yesterday. Generally, she'll get on FB in the morning and again at night. For the past year or so, she has ALWAYS logged out of FB. Yesterday, she went on in the morning and left it logged in; I didn't have time to do a lot of snooping though. I was, however, able to snoop more when I got home in the afternoon, but had something to do. When I cam back home again later, she was smiling at me and the kids, but it was clear she was teary eyed. Those kind of went away a little until later when she had come down from upstairs having read on her phone and was teary eyed again, though not quite as much as before. She got on FB before going to bed and left her account logged in again. This morning she had the tab closed after her reading session.

Not sure what to think of all of that. Considering her state of mind, and knowing I had to use that same computer, I am wondering if she is subconsciously trying to help me get information and maybe fight for her. I don't know. Her behavior has been so odd the last few days. Perhaps the OM is pulling back and she is having second thoughts. Perhaps the real her, buried under the MLC/depression fog she's in, is trying to call out for me to help. Anyone have any experience like the above? This woman has been methodical about keeping FB logged off. I can see one slip. But 2 in the same day? Any thoughts on this? Please be nice. I'm not under any delusions; just trying to understand if she is as conflicted as a think she is.


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## survivorwife

falconrap said:


> Learned some stuff and and some interesting observations of her yesterday. First I learned that the OM was cheated on by his wife and admitted to her that he didn't want to do anything until she was single. So apparently he does know the pain involved and has a guilty conscience about all of this. Should make the OM contact pretty effective, unless he steels himself and tries to fight for her. But I know now his FB ID, so, worst case scenario, I could use her login to let all of his friends know what he's doing. Ah...sweet justice that would be.
> 
> The interesting thing is what I saw with my wife yesterday. Generally, she'll get on FB in the morning and again at night. For the past year or so, she has ALWAYS logged out of FB. Yesterday, she went on in the morning and left it logged in; I didn't have time to do a lot of snooping though. I was, however, able to snoop more when I got home in the afternoon, but had something to do. When I cam back home again later, she was smiling at me and the kids, but it was clear she was teary eyed. Those kind of went away a little until later when she had come down from upstairs having read on her phone and was teary eyed again, though not quite as much as before. She got on FB before going to bed and left her account logged in again. This morning she had the tab closed after her reading session.
> 
> Not sure what to think of all of that. Considering her state of mind, and knowing I had to use that same computer, I am wondering if she is subconsciously trying to help me get information and maybe fight for her. I don't know. Her behavior has been so odd the last few days. Perhaps the OM is pulling back and she is having second thoughts. *Perhaps the real her, buried under the MLC/depression fog she's in, is trying to call out for me to help.* Anyone have any experience like the above? This woman has been methodical about keeping FB logged off. I can see one slip. But 2 in the same day? Any thoughts on this? Please be nice. I'm not under any delusions; just trying to understand if she is as conflicted as a think she is.


Perhaps, but not for the reasons you suggest.

Perhaps she wants to get caught (secretly) so that you, upon discovery, will take the time to digest what you found. Then, perhaps she is looking to you to do the "heavy lifting" in an attempt to reconcile, thus relieving her of the consequences of her actions.

As to experience on "something like this", my WS would take texts and calls from his OW (plural) with me in the room. He would tell me its a buddy of his. Or the caller was male (when I definitely heard the voice of a female). Why would he do this? So that, if I caused a scene by calling him out, he could then use the opportunity to tell me what I am doing wrong in the marriage, and if I gave him more attention  he would discontinue the calls (which I would never believe anyway).

You see, my WS is a narcissist. The only reason he would want to get caught was so that he could place the burden on me to repair the marriage, not because he intended to discontinue his behavior, unless of course I met all of his requirements to keep the marriage in tact. See how that works?

Since I've seen this before (10 years ago), I merely left him. He acknowledges that he did wrong, however (according to him) If "we" could work out our problems together, we would be fine. Since "I" am not willing to work it out, the damage to the marriage is now my fault. I'm the quitter.


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## falconrap

survivorwife said:


> Perhaps, but not for the reasons you suggest.
> 
> Perhaps she wants to get caught (secretly) so that you, upon discovery, will take the time to digest what you found. Then, perhaps she is looking to you to do the "heavy lifting" in an attempt to reconcile, thus relieving her of the consequences of her actions.
> 
> As to experience on "something like this", my WS would take texts and calls from his OW (plural) with me in the room. He would tell me its a buddy of his. Or the caller was male (when I definitely heard the voice of a female). Why would he do this? So that, if I caused a scene by calling him out, he could then use the opportunity to tell me what I am doing wrong in the marriage, and if I gave him more attention  he would discontinue the calls (which I would never believe anyway).
> 
> You see, my WS is a narcissist. The only reason he would want to get caught was so that he could place the burden on me to repair the marriage, not because he intended to discontinue his behavior, unless of course I met all of his requirements to keep the marriage in tact. See how that works?
> 
> Since I've seen this before (10 years ago), I merely left him. He acknowledges that he did wrong, however (according to him) If "we" could work out our problems together, we would be fine. Since "I" am not willing to work it out, the damage to the marriage is now my fault. I'm the quitter.


Interesting. I don't believe she is a narcissist, but her behaviors have been really odd lately compared to even the past 4 years that I now believe she has been suffering from long term bouts of depression. I don't honestly know what to think, but someone else suggested that she may in fact be making that very cry out for help. I guess the reality is that this type of situation is really hard to get a grip on. Getting the OM to leave will be the best thing for her, and I hope she sees it when it happens. Either way, I know I'm in for a long rough road with no guarantees either way. Prayer and support from her family (my father just isn't the supporting type I need right now) is about all that is keeping me going right now as I fight to stave off slipping into my own depression. I wish this was one of the simple man-up/180 situations, but I think her current mental state would cause that to backfire.

I've just got to focus on getting OM out of the way and getting her to see what we all see, so that she will get the help she needs.


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## Vanguard

I just need to point out here that no matter what people think, it is undeniable that tweaking your personality with alpha highlights does wonders for you with women. 

I loved my wife. I worked in a tough job and made a ton of money for her. I bought her a Dyson that she used once. I carried her to bed and sang her songs. I was the romantic, sensitive guy and she cheated on me. 

I've put my efforts elsewhere since then. I no longer will buy a girl a drink. I get them to beg me for permission to buy me a drink. I have been propositioned for sex by nine girls in the past several months after my divorce, because of one little thing I started doing.

Or stopped doing, rather. I stopped caring about them. School, church, the gym. Women are chasing me around and I don't care, which makes them want to chase me more. I know this sounds egotistical. I know it probably sounds fantastical. But it is the truth. 

I have a wonderful girlfriend now and she knows all the horrible details about my past. She knows that I have been hurt in such an intimate and putrid way. But she also knows that I am not needy, and she loves it. I'm not going to spoonfeed her love- I'm going to make her work for it. I'm not going to laugh at stupid jokes, only smart ones. I'm not going to coddle her, because at the end of the day her mind would perceive it for what it truly is: disrespect. True chivalry is treating a woman like a woman- the weaker, more beautiful vessel. 

And it works wonders. She is obsessed with me, and I with her. But she knows that I don't need her, and she loves that. She loves it when I threaten anyone who starts sniffing around her. She loves that I work out, and that I could easily snap her in two, but won't. 

I'm not saying you should change who you are. 
All I'm suggesting is that maybe the romantic "beta" blueprint isn't so much who you are as it is who you think you're supposed to be. I personally feel like I am a more honest iteration of my self now than I was before.


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## falconrap

WhiteMousse said:


> I just need to point out here that no matter what people think, it is undeniable that tweaking your personality with alpha highlights does wonders for you with women.
> 
> I loved my wife. I worked in a tough job and made a ton of money for her. I bought her a Dyson that she used once. I carried her to bed and sang her songs. I was the romantic, sensitive guy and she cheated on me.
> 
> I've put my efforts elsewhere since then. I no longer will buy a girl a drink. I get them to beg me for permission to buy me a drink. I have been propositioned for sex by nine girls in the past several months after my divorce, because of one little thing I started doing.
> 
> Or stopped doing, rather. I stopped caring about them. School, church, the gym. Women are chasing me around and I don't care, which makes them want to chase me more. I know this sounds egotistical. I know it probably sounds fantastical. But it is the truth.
> 
> I have a wonderful girlfriend now and she knows all the horrible details about my past. She knows that I have been hurt in such an intimate and putrid way. But she also knows that I am not needy, and she loves it. I'm not going to spoonfeed her love- I'm going to make her work for it. I'm not going to laugh at stupid jokes, only smart ones. I'm not going to coddle her, because at the end of the day her mind would perceive it for what it truly is: disrespect. True chivalry is treating a woman like a woman- the weaker, more beautiful vessel.
> 
> And it works wonders. She is obsessed with me, and I with her. But she knows that I don't need her, and she loves that. She loves it when I threaten anyone who starts sniffing around her. She loves that I work out, and that I could easily snap her in two, but won't.
> 
> I'm not saying you should change who you are.
> All I'm suggesting is that maybe the romantic "beta" blueprint isn't so much who you are as it is who you think you're supposed to be. I personally feel like I am a more honest iteration of my self now than I was before.


I agree with everything you said. And this is actually what I initially started doing, but she caught on to my sudden core weight lifting and just taking charge and doing things and was adamant that it would change nothing. Now that I have read their conversations, she was right. The man-up is not going to work with her, because the guy she wants to be with is all needy about her at times to. I think her mental state is causing this, and not some need for me to man-up. I can, and do let my alpha pop out quite a bit, which is why I wondered what the deal was. I have girls at work that would do me in a heartbeat. I have been basically cordial to her, joked where appropriate and listening when needed, the rest of the time I basically ignore her and do my own thing. So I am still doing this to an extent. I just think the solution for her is going to be mental health help. The OM situation just complicates everything.


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## TDSC60

WhiteMousse said:


> I just need to point out here that no matter what people think, it is undeniable that tweaking your personality with alpha highlights does wonders for you with women.
> 
> I loved my wife. I worked in a tough job and made a ton of money for her. I bought her a Dyson that she used once. I carried her to bed and sang her songs. I was the romantic, sensitive guy and she cheated on me.
> 
> I've put my efforts elsewhere since then. I no longer will buy a girl a drink. I get them to beg me for permission to buy me a drink. I have been propositioned for sex by nine girls in the past several months after my divorce, because of one little thing I started doing.
> 
> Or stopped doing, rather. I stopped caring about them. School, church, the gym. Women are chasing me around and I don't care, which makes them want to chase me more. I know this sounds egotistical. I know it probably sounds fantastical. But it is the truth.
> 
> I have a wonderful girlfriend now and she knows all the horrible details about my past. She knows that I have been hurt in such an intimate and putrid way. But she also knows that I am not needy, and she loves it. I'm not going to spoonfeed her love- I'm going to make her work for it. I'm not going to laugh at stupid jokes, only smart ones. I'm not going to coddle her, because at the end of the day her mind would perceive it for what it truly is: disrespect. True chivalry is treating a woman like a woman- the weaker, more beautiful vessel.
> 
> And it works wonders. She is obsessed with me, and I with her. But she knows that I don't need her, and she loves that. She loves it when I threaten anyone who starts sniffing around her. She loves that I work out, and that I could easily snap her in two, but won't.
> 
> I'm not saying you should change who you are.
> All I'm suggesting is that maybe the romantic "beta" blueprint isn't so much who you are as it is who you think you're supposed to be. I personally feel like I am a more honest iteration of my self now than I was before.


:iagree:

Lots of people have differing opinions but the "Alpha" scenario does work. 

When I thought that I was being too distant and removed from my wife, I started being more attentive, more helpful, asking if I could do anything for her, shared my feelings more, in short - I started acting more "Beta". I was reading the wrong books and really thought I could connect more on an emotional level with my wife. Didn't work. She asked me what was wrong with me. That I was not acting like the man she married and she wanted that man back.

Keep up your campaign against OM. But at the same time you have to start a being more distant from your wife. Do things with the kids that do not include her unless she asks to be included. Make her want to be a part of your family. Make her see that you are willing to walk away from the cheating wife she has become and the only way back is for her to change and want to be part of your life. And you have to mean it.


----------



## TDSC60

falconrap said:


> I agree with everything you said. And this is actually what I initially started doing, but she caught on to my sudden core weight lifting and just taking charge and doing things and was adamant that it would change nothing. Now that I have read their conversations, she was right. The man-up is going to work with her, because the guy she wants to be with is all needy about her at times to. I think her mental state is causing this, and not some need for me to man-up. I can, and do let my alpha pop out quite a bit, which is why I wondered what the deal was. I have girls at work that would do me in a heartbeat. I have been basically cordial to her, joked where appropriate and listening when needed, the rest of the time I basically ignore her and do my own thing. So I am still doing this to an extent. I just think the solution for her is going to be mental health help. The OM situation just complicates everything.


OK - you got there before I posted. Keep it up. Do not let her saying it would not change things knock you off course. The fact that she has noticed what you are doing is evidence that it is working. 

She thinks you are doing these things to win her back (and you are), but if you stay the course, the seed you have planted will start to grow and she will not be able to stop herself from being attracted to you again. Keep it up. 

On the flip side - maybe she wants a whiny, weak, co-dependent man. If that is what she thinks wants and she sees herself as the OM savior, the one person who can repair his life, then it is going to have to play out before she wakes up.

If it were me, I could not stay in limbo waiting on that to happen. Set a time limit and stick to it.

Good luck.


----------



## falconrap

I have taken the kids to different parks the last week, and done things without her. Believe me, I have pulled back from her a lot. But it isn't really changing anything. Her mental state is just not right. In fact, one of her biggest complaints about me was that I was always using the computer when she came around and didn't want to talk with her. This is why I think the man-up works on certain types of women, but not others. I am not planning to go beta on her again until the OM is gone and she is in the right mind set, and only then if we agree to reconcile and sit down to get her needs honestly laid out on the table. She never communicated to me in an effective way. I think she was actually longing for more quality time. But the whole mental state really makes an issue of all of this.

Thanks for the advice though. As I said, I'll continue to be more alpha, as I have been. I just don't think that is what she is looking for, at least not in her current state.


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## falconrap

OK, I got the perps Cell number via iPhone analyzer and WW's iPhone backup from end of January. She even has two pics of his unit on the phone that he must of sent. Some of the texts are very raunchy that she sent to him, so it's clear she's been fantasizing about him during this past year (apparently he became available in August last year). Need to check her BB to. She talks to him about how she's been thinking about him since college, when they broke up (gee...20 years? Um, yeah right.) And she wanted to get pregnant by him. Blah, blah, blah. Now if only I could get her phone to backup to iTunes or somehow pull the files down from iCloud (if I had known that she was doing this...never would have set it up for iCloud!), then I could get all the rest. I'm aiming for full exposure now. Not sure if I want to email the perp, or call him direct. I'm starting to feel a little kick a** brewing in me, and it feels good. The way she talks to him is something she never used to do with me, even when dating, which really makes me wonder what is going on in her head. This is going to get ugly for sure.


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## falconrap

OK guys, I'm a Facebook moron. I admit little need for it, so I don't know all of it's features. I see the messaging window, and assume this is where I would want to message all of the people out there. I'm not friends with the OM or his friends. How do I go about doing this? I could log onto her account, but she might see that rather quick and try to do something. Can I get these peoples FB message address and send to them anyways?

Please give me the FB for dummies. It's one of the very few computer things that I am clueless about.


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## anchorwatch

You can use her FB to see her friends/family and from there go to his page. Make a list of both their friends. From your page, PM them through the message icon on the upper left side of the page. Be prepared for the storm. I'm sure others will be along to help you with whats coming.

Good luck.


----------



## iheartlife

Tip: use Evernote to save FB friend lists in one fell swoop, links and all. Takes 30 seconds, if that.

Register (free) for Evernote if you haven't already (I use it for tons of things).

Then, bring up the friends page and webclip it in Evernote (Evernote webclipping doesn't work in 64bit IE, but it does work with google chrome and other browsers). Saves all the links on one handy page. Once you've created it, log into facebook on one page and Evernote on the other--when you click the links in Evernote it will send you to each page and then you message them.

Very useful when the AP has 95 friends. 

Poking around FB yields all kinds of interesting tidbits...family trees, super religious, pro-marriage relations and friends...you never know what you might find until you look. Comments to posted items are especially revealing. 

Not that I would know anything about that, or anything.


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## falconrap

Thanks.


----------



## GetTough

falconrap said:


> OK guys, I'm a Facebook moron. I admit little need for it, so I don't know all of it's features. I see the messaging window, and assume this is where I would want to message all of the people out there. I'm not friends with the OM or his friends. How do I go about doing this? I could log onto her account, but she might see that rather quick and try to do something. Can I get these peoples FB message address and send to them anyways?
> 
> Please give me the FB for dummies. It's one of the very few computer things that I am clueless about.


If you are going to expose (which I would advise think very carefully about, but it seems you have your mind set), at least don't do it in writing or on the net. Just talk to people. Lawyers love FB and twitter. You have no idea the **** that lawyers can spin. I've lived it. If you had a HALO, they would say you were trying to blind people with it.


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## falconrap

OK, I just found how the whole genesis of everything, and now it all makes since. During 2008 we were going through a lot of stress because of our new house, behavior issues with our first child, financial strains, work related stress for her. Then out of the blue, they made contact. Eventually starting to text as they live the "what if" game dwelling on the past. That led to her being unhappy and apparently depressed throughout the period of getting pregnant through now. This man's contact with her caused her unhappiness by triggering the thoughts in her mind that pushed her to live in her current fantasy. Today is D-Day for her. The guilt will be layer on thick to this guy, as he continues to have anxiety about causing problems with me. When he hears that he caused her to lose so many years of unhappiness over his contact and making her dwell on what could have been, I believe he'll break down and ball himself right out of the picture. Contact from the FIL and MIL stating they want him out and why, will probably cement it. The key is whether or not she snaps out of the fantasy and chooses to reconcile.

I believe my current plan is supposed to be 1) expose, 2) wait for contacts and see her reaction, 3) no response other than "I'm sorry your upset", 4) wait for her to be ready to talk about this and demand marriage or divorce, and go from there. Any one who is familiar with the marriage builders plan and believes I have that wrong, please let me know quickly. I will need this info in a few hours.

Thanks to all of you for the support. It has been of immense value in my life, and I hope it saves my marriage.


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## anchorwatch

Good luck Falcon. Glad you found out all those bad years were not due to depression, just her contact with the OM. That could be partly to blame for his divorce too. Don't back down, she decided to do this on her own.


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## TDSC60

Sounds like a plan.

You need to stick to it even if, at first, you do not see the desired results immediately. 

Also do not wait for her to be ready to talk. Set a time limit. Tell her she has until the end of the week (or what ever time you feel) to make her decision or you will file for divorce.


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## Will_Kane

falconrap said:


> OK, I just found how the whole genesis of everything, and now it all makes since. During 2008 we were going through a lot of stress because of our new house, behavior issues with our first child, financial strains, work related stress for her. Then out of the blue, they made contact. Eventually starting to text as they live the "what if" game dwelling on the past. *That led to her being unhappy and apparently depressed throughout the period of getting pregnant through now. This man's contact with her caused her unhappiness by triggering the thoughts in her mind that pushed her to live in her current fantasy. *Today is D-Day for her. *The guilt will be layer on thick to this guy, as he continues to have anxiety about causing problems with me. When he hears that he caused her to lose so many years of unhappiness over his contact and making her dwell on what could have been, I believe he'll break down and ball himself right out of the picture*. Contact from the FIL and MIL stating they want him out and why, will probably cement it. The key is whether or not she snaps out of the fantasy and chooses to reconcile.
> 
> I believe my current plan is supposed to be 1) expose, 2) wait for contacts and see her reaction, 3) no response other than "I'm sorry your upset", 4) wait for her to be ready to talk about this and demand marriage or divorce, and go from there. Any one who is familiar with the marriage builders plan and believes I have that wrong, please let me know quickly. I will need this info in a few hours.
> 
> Thanks to all of you for the support. It has been of immense value in my life, and I hope it saves my marriage.


After exposure, expect her to go ballistic. Besides, "I'm sorry you're upset," you can tell her, "All I did was tell the truth, the people we're close to have the right to know the truth, I'm fighting for you and for our marriage and family."

You are right, the key is whether this snaps her out of the fantasy. It helps a lot if the other man throws her under the bus. After going ballistic, it is normal for the cheater to run to the affair partner, literally or figuratively. She may storm out and go to a hotel, she may start driving to see him, or get a plane.

I think you are being unrealistic if you think other man or her will see things the same way as you posted above. She is not going to see him as the cause of her unhappiness and neither is he. He is going to see her as being unhappy with you, otherwise why would she continue to escalate the relationship with him.

She is some piece of work to have been hiding her contact with this guy for four years.


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## anchorwatch

Falcon, remember even if she chooses divorce up front, it will be sometime before the judge slams the gavel. During that time she may see the effects of what she's has done and what she has to lose for a fantasy lover. So do not give in on the divorce, it is a strong tool. She chooses or you will.


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## falconrap

Thanks for all of the suggestions and thoughts guys. The only reason why I think the guy will cut it off is he fits them mold I have seen from a number of guys who confronted the OM. He has frequently backed off from communication with her and held things back from her because of his guilt. If realizing what he has done doesn't send him running, so be it. But I think the likelihood is above 50%.

She may run or stay. I don't know which, but it has been clear in her writings and emotions that she has been highly conflicted with this whole drama. She agonized over whether or not to chase her fantasy. Wish me luck that she snaps out of it. She just told me yesterday she was in the mood to Christmas shop and feeling all good about the short term. So those thoughts and the uncertainty of choosing to bail, may be strong drivers for her as well. I can only pray and hope, but I felt pushed to look at some older conversations and found the one that explained it all, and hope it's a good sign.


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## falconrap

D-Day, is it E-Day, has occurred. The FIL called first and told him what he thought, especially after the initial denials. The guy told him he would stop, and sent me an email stating the same. Then they called her and had a long talk. She is silent and cutting vegetables for her meals this week. As expected,the guy is ashamed of what he has done because he had the same thing done to him. I will keep an eye out, but I expect he won't try again, since this could effect both his government job and his current custody rights with his children. He knows the FIL wants nothing to do with him as well.

I walked downstairs and by her, but she just kept cutting. She's got the emotions going through her head right now. I can only hope God is opening her heart and connecting it back to her mind so that she makes the right decision. I'll keep all apprised.

Prayers and wishes are welcome. And my continued thanks for all of the help.


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## anchorwatch

Pulling for your family Falcon. Stay calm and strong in your resolve. Her move.


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## warlock07

You are still making way too many excuses for her. How long was the PA going on ?


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## falconrap

The only opportunity she had for the PA, and the only communication I have seen that even indicates it, was a single time in May when she went up north. The rest of the time it was all EA. I read a number of communications where she slowly started doubting her life with me because of the thoughts of what would have been with him. We all have thoughts of that first true love and what could have been. Unfortunately, social networking has made it easier to reconnect.

I had suspected something was starting to go wrong back in 2008, but I thought it related to her long-term self-esteem issues with her weight. Certainly this contributed to the whole situation, as her old flame gave her a secondary justification that she could get someone else. She started down the rabbit hole, now I need to pull her out. I'm extending my hand, but time will tell if she'll reach back.

Right now she hasn't actually read what I sent the OM. She's calmly doing other things, but mentioned it to me in brief passing. Her conversation with her father went well, in terms of him letting her know what is right and wrong. I expect other family members to chime in over the next day or so.

Her reaction to what I wrote will be interesting.


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## falconrap

Well, as expected - she hates me for being the one to tell her parents. She hates me for doing this to her. She says she'll never want to be with me (she already wanted the divorce - I mean really she had already displayed that). I asked her to give me a reason she was unhappy with me and she could only say she always wanted to be with the other guy. In other words, she can't really come up with one. Now I wait and see if the fog lifts or not. I'm not as hopeful about this as I was with the OM bailing. In either case, I will be able to go bout my day now, I believe.

She's also sleeping on the couch tonight. Like I didn't see that coming. The really funny part was that she thinks I did this only for me and that I'm being selfish. Poor kids. They are going to suffer through all of this because my wife didn't know what her vows meant.


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## TDSC60

You really do need to start the divorce paperwork if you have not already done so.


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## falconrap

TDSC60 said:


> You really do need to start the divorce paperwork if you have not already done so.


Yeah...I know. Will work it this week. Her family is still just starting to chime in. So I have a sliver of hope. But it is just a sliver.

Thanks.


----------



## GetTough

falconrap said:


> Well, as expected - she hates me for being the one to tell her parents. She hates me for doing this to her. She says she'll never want to be with me (she already wanted the divorce - I mean really she had already displayed that). I asked her to give me a reason she was unhappy with me and she could only say she always wanted to be with the other guy. In other words, she can't really come up with one. Now I wait and see if the fog lifts or not. I'm not as hopeful about this as I was with the OM bailing. In either case, I will be able to go bout my day now, I believe.
> 
> She's also sleeping on the couch tonight. Like I didn't see that coming. The really funny part was that she thinks I did this only for me and that I'm being selfish. Poor kids. They are going to suffer through all of this because my wife didn't know what her vows meant.


Just protect yourself and try to feel like you are moving on with life without her. One part of this post concerns me... about her sleeping on the couch. Like you wanted her in bed? Do not act like you want her back.


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## falconrap

GetTough said:


> Just protect yourself and try to feel like you are moving on with life without her. One part of this post concerns me... about her sleeping on the couch. Like you wanted her in bed? Do not act like you want her back.


No...it was an observation of something I expected might happen. Nothing more. At this point it is obvious that she is only concerned with herself. I have no hope of reconciliation unless she comes out of this fog. So I have to proceed to lawyer up and prepare for something I never wanted.

It's almost surreal to watch someone just throw everyone under the bus to satisfy their own selfish needs, especially when her's is so nebulous. Maybe she'll snap out of it, but I'm not holding my breath. Moving forward should help me at least do my job now, s this has been impacting me at work.


----------



## ArmyofJuan

falconrap said:


> Well, as expected - she hates me for being the one to tell her parents. She hates me for doing this to her.


Of course, you are destroying her fantasy. Its like forcing a drug addict into rehab that's in denial about their addiction.
That being said, you have every right to hate her for cheating.



> She says she'll never want to be with me (she already wanted the divorce - I mean really she had already displayed that). I asked her to give me a reason she was unhappy with me and she could only say she always wanted to be with the other guy. In other words, she can't really come up with one.


This is just her head trying to justify her A. Don't listen to any of it and a year from now (maybe less) she most likely take it all back...as long as you play your cards right that is.



> Now I wait and see if the fog lifts or not. I'm not as hopeful about this as I was with the OM bailing. In either case, I will be able to go bout my day now, I believe.


The fog isn't going to lift anytime soon so don't sit on your hands waiting for her. You need to start taking action (like filing for a D) to show her you are not waiting on her and that you are going to give her what she "says" she wants. 




> She's also sleeping on the couch tonight. Like I didn't see that coming. The really funny part was that she thinks I did this only for me and that I'm being selfish. Poor kids. They are going to suffer through all of this because my wife didn't know what her vows meant.


All WS'es think this which is why they don't listen to the BS (pun lol). They project their own selfishness on to everyone else so they believe you are only doing things for you own benefit and they will end up paying for it. You can't rationalize with them so don't even try.

This is why reverse psychology works so well, you know they will not want to do what you ask so push them to do what they say they want which motivates them to push back against you.

tl;dr: Treat her like a teenager.



> Her family is still just starting to chime in. So I have a sliver of hope. But it is just a sliver.


No you don't, short term there is NO hope. It will take at least a couple of months for her to simmer down and there is nothing anybody can say or do to make her change her thought processes right now. Don't waste your time thinking she is going to have a change of heart.


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## falconrap

Thanks for that advice. I'm already drafting my own time-sharing agreement for the children (Florida law). Child alimony is dedicated by finances and percentage of time spent with a child. If I have the children for the school year, she'll be paying to me. I need to start gathering other paperwork, get a lawyer consultation, and work this process forward.

When she finally comes out of that fog,whenever it happens, it will be really interesting to see her reactions, knowing she is not normally anywhere near this selfish. Man...pulling the crack pipe away is brutal!


----------



## happyman64

falconrap said:


> D-Day, is it E-Day, has occurred. The FIL called first and told him what he thought, especially after the initial denials. The guy told him he would stop, and sent me an email stating the same. Then they called her and had a long talk. She is silent and cutting vegetables for her meals this week. As expected,the guy is ashamed of what he has done because he had the same thing done to him. I will keep an eye out, but I expect he won't try again, since this could effect both his government job and his current custody rights with his children. He knows the FIL wants nothing to do with him as well.
> 
> I walked downstairs and by her, but she just kept cutting. She's got the emotions going through her head right now. I can only hope God is opening her heart and connecting it back to her mind so that she makes the right decision. I'll keep all apprised.
> 
> Prayers and wishes are welcome. And my continued thanks for all of the help.


If all else fails and they do not break contact tell him you are going email pictures of his "junk" to all of his family and friends. And when they see that he will really be embarrassed.

Also tell him that when you saw his junk he does not have that much to be embarrassed about. Tell him you are sorry God left him *inadequate* in that dept.

That is how you lay it on him.


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## falconrap

happyman64 said:


> If all else fails and they do not break contact tell him you are going email pictures of his "junk" to all of his family and friends. And when they see that he will really be embarrassed.
> 
> Also tell him that when you saw his junk he does not have that much to be embarrassed about. Tell him you are sorry God left him *inadequate* in that dept.
> 
> That is how you lay it on him.


In one of my drafts I had a comment at the end that said "By the way, viagra may help with your problem". 

I know if I was sexting someone pictures of my junk, it would be standing at attention.


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## aug

falconrap said:


> In one of my drafts I had a comment at the end that said "By the way, viagra may help with your problem".
> 
> I know if I was sexting someone pictures of my junk, it would be standing at attention.



You know now when your wife said "size does not matter", she's telling you her truth.


----------



## happyman64

falconrap said:


> In one of my drafts I had a comment at the end that said "By the way, viagra may help with your problem".
> 
> I know if I was sexting someone pictures of my junk, it would be standing at attention.


Awesome response. Way to go.......


----------



## falconrap

I continue to play the waiting game. She is planning for a portion of her paycheck to go into her own account to pay for her vehicle lease, her credit card, and her expenses. I will be getting a consultation sometime this week and if she does anything stupid, I have them petition the a court for injunctive relief. I've drafted up what I consider an acceptable arrangement for the children and for me to retain the house (She wants to leave this state? Go right ahead!). I will be talking with an attorney and making sure they know what I am willing to accept and to get the paperwork going. At this point, filing seems to be the only thing I can do.

Her father has sent her a couple of articles on the affair fog and it's effects (these are from the Surviving Infidelity website). You never know what my trigger that "oh cr*p! What am I doing?" moment. At this point I'm just assuming nothing will change for months, if ever. So forward I go where I do not wish to go. No loving spouse should ever have to do this, but it is clear that far too many do these days.

Curious, have any of you had experience with just throwing a tantrum and getting a positive result from it. I had a moment where I just wanted to stand up and start yelling at her and ask how she could do this too me, and how is it I deserved to be cheated on. I refrained and remained cool, but wonder if I should have just let it air.


----------



## falconrap

I continue to play the waiting game. She is planning for a portion of her paycheck to go into her own account to pay for her vehicle lease, her credit card, and her expenses. I will be getting a consultation sometime this week and if she does anything stupid, I have them petition the a court for injunctive relief. I've drafted up what I consider an acceptable arrangement for the children and for me to retain the house (She wants to leave this state? Go right ahead!). I will be talking with an attorney and making sure they know what I am willing to accept and to get the paperwork going. At this point, filing seems to be the only thing I can do.

Her father has sent her a couple of articles on the affair fog and it's effects (these are from the Surviving Infidelity website). You never know what my trigger that "oh cr*p! What am I doing?" moment. At this point I'm just assuming nothing will change for months, if ever. So forward I go where I do not wish to go. No loving spouse should ever have to do this, but it is clear that far too many do these days.

Curious, have any of you had experience with just throwing a tantrum and getting a positive result from it. I had a moment where I just wanted to stand up and start yelling at her and ask how she could do this too me, and how is it I deserved to be cheated on. I refrained and remained cool, but wonder if I should have just let it air.


----------



## cantdecide

The tantrum won't do any good if she's still in a fog. It'll make you more unattractive and needy to her. I tried it in a moment of weakness and regret it. Yeah, my XW acted like it effected her but I know it didn't. Don't give in.


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## falconrap

I won't. I was curious to it. I wish there was some way to really get her to snap out of it before we spend thousands of dollars on fees and attorneys for something I don't really want, and something I don't think she would want if she were thinking right.

I've just got to keep moving forward.


----------



## happyman64

falconrap said:


> I won't. I was curious to it. I wish there was some way to really get her to snap out of it before we spend thousands of dollars on fees and attorneys for something I don't really want, and something I don't think she would want if she were thinking right.
> 
> I've just got to keep moving forward.


That is the key. Keep moving forward. Seem as old as her.

And protect he kids. Make it clear she s free to go. Alone!

She wants to pursue her fantasy but you and the kids are staying put in reality.

Make that very clear.

And make it cLear that you do not wnt to D but you will and have no trouble moving on without her.

HM64


----------



## ArmyofJuan

falconrap said:


> I wish there was some way to really get her to snap out of it before we spend thousands of dollars on fees and attorneys for something I don't really want, and something I don't think she would want if she were thinking right.


But there isn't and that's what you need to accept. It going to take time and she has to experience loss before it all becomes real to her. It may not happen until AFTER the D though most times as the D day gets closer they start to panic.

The best thing you can do to accelerate the process is to turn your back on her and let her fail. She has to realize that you are not going to be there for her and she is on her own. It’s going to take a while for that to sink in.



> I've just got to keep moving forward.


You don't have a choice. Sometimes they don't come back (most times they do try to R at least once) and that ends up being for the better in the long run.


----------



## falconrap

I'm done drafting agreements for what I will accept in the divorce. I intend to retained the house, and the kids during the school year. I will present these to an attorney to draw up my filing request and go from there. I can't stand the fact that I am going to have to dish out all of this money to an attorney for her idiotic addiction to this affair. Burns my a**, it does! (think Yoda here)

I just want to take a 2x4, whoop it across her head and see if it knocks any sense into her (figuratively speaking of course, I would never visit violence upon her, and I never have).


----------



## falconrap

I'm done drafting agreements for what I will accept in the divorce. I intend to retained the house, and the kids during the school year. I will present these to an attorney to draw up my filing request and go from there. I can't stand the fact that I am going to have to dish out all of this money to an attorney for her idiotic addiction to this affair. Burns my a**, it does! (think Yoda here)

I just want to take a 2x4, whoop it across her head and see if it knocks any sense into her (figuratively speaking of course, I would never visit violence upon her, and I never have).


----------



## anchorwatch

Falcon, she been interacting with him for four years. OM may have apologized to you and your FIL, but the damage is done. Her brain has been rewired. She's scratching for options. No doubt, at this time she thinks she'll have a chance with him later, if she breaks ties with you. Only permanently being dumped by the OM and a good dose of "my fantasy isn't working", will get her to reexamine what has occurred. Continue to D, stick to the 180 and, as tough as it sounds, move on with your life. It's all you can do for now.


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## warlock07

You cannot always bet on her coming out of the fog. It might well be that it can happen after a couple of failed relationships pr not. You should keep doing what you are doing. If she comes around, work from that situation. If she doesn't, you will have moved on anyway.


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## falconrap

Just had an email response from her cousin. The lady actually had the gall to tell me that I betrayed my wife's trust and that I am responsible and I did "illegal" things getting the information I got. She was one of the enablers, and I kind of expected that she would the WS. She even knew others would respond positively to what I wrote, but said she didn't. Surprised? Not.

WS are bad enough, but their enablers are even worse, in my mind, because they have no excuse. Instead of cheering the WS on, they should be telling them to talk to their spouse about what might be wrong in their marriage. If anyone reading this is out their enabling a cheater, let me assure you that you have a very warm place waiting for you in the afterlife.


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## happyman64

That's right Falcon.

Ignore the enablers.

You will learn who purports marriage and who does not.


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## Chaparral

falconrap said:


> Just had an email response from her cousin. The lady actually had the gall to tell me that I betrayed my wife's trust and that I am responsible and I did "illegal" things getting the information I got. She was one of the enablers, and I kind of expected that she would the WS. She even knew others would respond positively to what I wrote, but said she didn't. Surprised? Not.
> 
> WS are bad enough, but their enablers are even worse, in my mind, because they have no excuse. Instead of cheering the WS on, they should be telling them to talk to their spouse about what might be wrong in their marriage. If anyone reading this is out their enabling a cheater, let me assure you that you have a very warm place waiting for you in the afterlife.


Put the OM on cheaterville.com

Tell the enabler her lack of morality is breath taking and you hope God will forgive her because you and your kids never will.


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## falconrap

The cousin (who now has a front row seat in the heat) forwarded what I said to the WS and one of her sisters. That stirred up some more conversation with the wife tonight. She agreed that she is 100% responsible for the affair. She agreed that I am a good man and don't deserve this. Then she said that I was wrong about her not thinking of the children. To which I shot back that anytime you choose to bring another man into the marriage and cheat that you bring danger, a risk, into the lives of the children and that if she took the children with her to be with the OM that the odds are highly in favor of him abusing them. She really had no retort. She says she has always thought of the guy for the past 20 years, and I reminded her that he cheated on her once and then had issues in his own marriage.

She kept blabbing on about her feelings about him (apparently he hasn't contacted her since) and I reminded her that she has a choice. She can choose the image and hope of the guy, and destroy our family in the process and that she may or may not be happy in the end. Or she can choose to push those feelings aside and choose to reconcile with me and that I would work with her to make our marriage stronger and hopefully fulfill each others needs. I noted that she knew she could be happy with me and she agreed.

It all goes back to those lingering feelings for the OM. I think I managed to put a crack in her shields. Maybe this will be the turning point that leads to her lifting the fog a month or so from now. Or it could just be pi**in in the wind! 

In any case, she was emotional to a degree. The fog is still there, as expected, but I planted the seed that might knock that little f'n rationalization hamster off the wheel. Now I sit back and watch the wheels spin some more. If I see another chance to open that crack further...I will. Otherwise, I continue to do what I need, and have been doing.


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## Thinkitthrough

Falconrap: I think its time for you to dig in. File for divorce and have her served, it doesn't mean you have to follow through, but as was said your filing and your proposals are first in leaving her to react. She will no doubt link up with the enabler. I would guess that the OM was doing damage control while your wife is cooking up justifications for reconnecting and putting the blame on you. It should be clear to her that there is a price to be paid, she will be out of the house, at distance from her children and on the hook for support payments. My own experience is that once the wife has moved in with the OM, family disapproval or not, things will go back to normal and her family will accept her and her explanations. You have put a lot of effort and emotional commitment into the situation but you need to ensure that you and your children are safe from harm first. You can't change her, but you can fix yourself, so do it. Do the 180 and be careful that in coming to understand her actions you don't give her reasons to justify herself. The price for leaving you must be higher than any benefit she might get from the OM giving her a reason to re-evaluate her decisions. It must be clear to her just how selfish and self centered she is. I hope this makes sense and I haven't been too ofensive. Truth be told I don't have a lot of imaginaition.


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## falconrap

I understand what you said. I also planted the seed about the divorce possibly be contested, how much money it will cost, etc...I think her thought has always been I would just go long with what she wanted and I shattered that notion without going too much into detail. She now has the little thought sitting in her head that she may not be getting what she wanted as I explained that I'm not letting the children be put in harms way.

Her move for now. Because of hour fiducial situation she knows, and even stated that she can't quit her job and just go. I'm sure somewhere in her head she may be trying to think of ways to do just that, but she's clearly looking long term for this divorce. I'm ready to go forward as soon as needed. With her, I want to see if really starts hitting home first. Since she has the OM was always love of her life thoughts, I have to be careful not to chase her off before she realizes that she can ignore those thoughts. I planted another seed in her mind, that she was the OM's plan B, and I could see in her eyes and body movement that the comment struck home. Probably something she hand't thought about.

I'll see what she does the next couple of days. In my state, filing first doesn't give you any advantage in the proceedings, so I have the luxury of observing her for a little while, especially since I've got my drafts done for what I would be seeking. I only need to provide them to the attorney and gets the paperwork drawn up and filed, which I can do at any time.


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## Thinkitthrough

Falconrap: You have no obligation to protect your wife from her the folly she has created, but you have an obligation to do things such that you are not hurt worse then needs be and you have an obligation to your children. Until she comes out of her fog, your wife is forfit. 
He who would save everything will save nothing. Again I hope I do not sound too harsh because I am behind you.


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## falconrap

No, you're not being harsh. This is more of just my way to talk about the things I see. I'm prepared, and will go forward as needed in terms of filing. But if she starts coming out of it sooner than expected, then I will give pause and see what she does. I have the luxury of watching what she does and how she reacts. The only purpose of filing now is to show the consequences, but she may already be seeing that with what we talked about. Not being naive or dumb here. I fully expect for her to continue to want this guy, but it was definitely obvious too me that she thought he was the escape hatch and her plan A. I've put a dent in that notion, and it was clear by the expression on her face. Sometimes people come out of this fog soon, and sometimes they never do. If I see any changes, I will simply observe and see what she is thinking. I could tell this morning that she was still thinking. It's like chipping at a mountain. I had a chance to knock a small chunk out of the foundation of the lie she sees as reality. Whether or not it makes a difference, time will tell.

As I said, I'm prepared. I just think it will take a contested divorce, and thousands spent on lawyers, before the divorce angle has a shot at snapping her out. If I can chip away at her "reality" and get her to start withdrawal before spending the money, I will, do that. Otherwise, the lawyers will be earning money from me. I'm being patient and nothing more. The discussion was a very good release for me, as I have been able to work this morning without issue. Being able to move on from the pain is always a good thing.


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## falconrap

Might have to take things back. Just noticed that she is ticked off at her father for him calling the guy. She's on the yoyo now. Interesting to say the least. I'll wit and see what she does the next couple of days. This is almost surreal watching a woman try to destroy everyone over a guy she really doesn't know. Might be putting my cards on the table soon.


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## Chaparral

Is she clear on the fact she can't leave the state with your children?


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## warlock07

Don't bet on her surely coming out of the fog. She might not.


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## falconrap

I hinted very strongly telling her that I wasn't going to just allow the children to leave and be around that guy when telling her that statistics pretty much show step-fathers tend to be far more abusive of children. Drove that point home when telling her she's not thinking of the children.

Not sure if she is going to pull out of the fog or not, but it is interesting watching her flail about to do damage control now, instead of me. Her bubble got popped. She actually thought that she could take the kids on vacation, during a holiday, and tell people then and that it would be different. Um yeah...it would be different. They would still be upset at you for destroying your family, only, now, you would have ruined a major holiday for them for the rest of their lives!! Hello!! Selfish...big time!

Like I said, my situation allows me to watch her moves and see if any of this starts sinking in. I'm ready if not. I can't live with a woman who would so callously continue to hurt me and the kids over her "life long love" for a guy she doesn't know. I've told her to read up on the fog, knowing she won't right now. But, given time, and as things continue to get more ugly for her, she may one day start reading and start seeing herself in the those writings. But if it is too late, I'll be with someone else.


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## Acabado

Keep planting seeds but don't talk her directly about the fog or alike. Iff you try to trivialize/minimize her own feelings (Tell she's just infatuated, it's all fantasy, it's limerence...) she will go deeper, it's the natural jerknee reaction. Talking she's in "fantasy land" versus making her thinking about it on her own are two complete diferent animals.

Fantasy will crack when you shine light about how things are going to be (divorce, morality clause, no moving out of state, financial strugles).


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## falconrap

I also had an interesting conversation with one of her co-workers. It was civil, unlike her cousin. She actually gave me advice. Even told me I should send her flowers. Interesting. Probably violates all of the 180 rules and such.

The other thing, thought, is her cousin keeps pushing the line that what I did was illegal. I only opened her email and stored iPhone back-up. Technically her phone and computer are mine, and vice versa, since we are married and we are not going through divorce proceedings at this time.

Any thoughts? Been one interesting day.


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## happyman64

My thoughts, hhmmmmm, tell her cousin to F ' Off.

You did nothing illegal and her cousin is a enabler.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

happyman64 said:


> My thoughts, hhmmmmm, tell her cousin to F ' Off.
> 
> You did nothing illegal and her cousin is a enabler.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


x 2


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## Eli-Zor

Acabado said:


> x 2


X 3
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

Tell her cousin to quit pimpin your wife and shut the h*ll up or you will get an RO on her.

Tell your wife bluntly that the kids stay in your state till they are 18.. 
Don't try to strongly suggest, imply nudge a person in a love with another man. Be blunt about all the consequences you can think of.

Make a list and give it to her. And then have her read this:



Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly!


----------



## falconrap

At this point, the WS is still in her anger state and hasn't yet agreed to cut off the affair, though she did comment that "I made sure her wouldn't contact her" and the phone calls and SMS have stopped.

I've told her I want to reconcile and made sure she realized and agreed that I was a good man, I didn't deserve this, and that I am willing to do what is needed to reconcile, if she chooses to do so, and ends the affair. Some I'm still in that stage, but hope to move forward soon, and I will be sending her that info once she has agreed to start doing what is needed to move on.

Curiously, she has, once again, asked me about plans for tomorrow. She wants to go have lunch and shop with her friend (female - kind of the fence sitter) and actually asked me if it was OK, or if I had plans that she needed to watch one or both of the kids. Considering her current state of mind, I let he know what my plans were for tomorrow, that we'll miss her, but to go ahead. I hope to start roping her in, and be with us more often, but I think I need to wait a week for her to simmer down a little more before a make "stronger", but not demanding, requests of her time to spend with me and the kids. I have to start finding ways to up our quality time and start reversing her feelings to be more positive for me so she can weigh all of the negative consequences against a man that is willing to forgive and move on and make things work. Key is still going to be making sure the affair is permanently terminated, otherwise reconciliation is not possible.

Is it normal to think your WS is cukoo for Coco Puffs?


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## Chaparral

Yes spells yes. lol

What books have you read?


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## anchorwatch

falconrap said:


> At this point, the WS is still in her anger state and hasn't yet agreed to cut off the affair, though she did comment that "I made sure her wouldn't contact her" and the phone calls and SMS have stopped.
> 
> I've told her I want to reconcile and made sure she realized and agreed that I was a good man, I didn't deserve this, and that I am willing to do what is needed to reconcile, if she chooses to do so, and ends the affair. Some I'm still in that stage, but hope to move forward soon, and I will be sending her that info once she has agreed to start doing what is needed to move on.
> 
> Curiously, she has, once again, asked me about plans for tomorrow. She wants to go have lunch and shop with her friend (female - kind of the fence sitter) and actually asked me if it was OK, or if I had plans that she needed to watch one or both of the kids. Considering her current state of mind, I let he know what my plans were for tomorrow, that we'll miss her, but to go ahead. I hope to start roping her in, and be with us more often, but I think I need to wait a week for her to simmer down a little more before a make "stronger", but not demanding, requests of her time to spend with me and the kids. I have to start finding ways to up our quality time and start reversing her feelings to be more positive for me so she can weigh all of the negative consequences against a man that is willing to forgive and move on and make things work. *Key is still going to be making sure the affair is permanently terminated, otherwise reconciliation is not possible.*
> 
> Is it normal to think your WS is cukoo for Coco Puffs?


Good plan. Keep monitoring the phone and computer.


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## falconrap

chapparal said:


> Yes spells yes. lol
> 
> What books have you read?


I've read the Married Man's Sex Life, The 5 Love Languages, and His Needs; Her Needs. The last two spoke to me the most, as one of the things I noticed from the WS to the OM was concern that the OM wasn't showing their feelings. Also saw a comment about me not crying in front of her, which isn't even accurate, so she got the full Monty from me the other night. I made sure it was crystal clear just how much pain I was going through, and I think it hit home. She saw me more vulnerable, in a good way, than ever before which appears to be one of her needs. I've always been kind of reserved on holding back my feelings, and I believe this was one of the issues in our marriage.


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## Chaparral

And has she read the books? I think you must have missed the point of MMSL.


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## falconrap

She has read at least a good portion of the 5 Love Languages. She's still in the fog, though, and thinks me reading books is just me throwing darts to save something she said I couldn't save (at least this was the case nearly 2 weeks ago. She didn't tell me it couldn't be saved the other night. She babbled early about her feelings for him, but I could see my feelings and comments about the guy were sinking in.

Ironically, she replied to my reply on the email I mentioned today. She says she is "frustrated" with me right now. Note the choice of words. I think reality is slowly starting to settle in. She doesn't want to go anywhere with me and the kids all together right now, which is fine. One day at a time.


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## falconrap

One more fun observation; The wife and I use one particular IM client to text and she stayed off-line for the first 3 days after I blew up her secret. She turned it back on yesterday, and used it to communicate with me today. I can literally see her coming down off her anger at me, bit by bit. Now...if she starts wearing the ring again, I'll know she's ready to go forward. I don't expect that for a few weeks, but I'm kind of surprised how quickly she has calmed down. I must of done something that really hit home. My moto right now: Keep on chippin'.


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## Acabado

Sending positive vibes!


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## happyman64

> but I'm kind of surprised how quickly she has calmed down. I must of done something that really hit home.


Yes you have. You took out your weedwacker and started to chop down the fantasy.

And she is just starting to feel guilty, maybe just a little.

Keep chipping away.

And always keep the chainsaw ready in case you need to use it again......

HM64


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## falconrap

Yeah, the chainsaw is in the back. Might have to rev that sucker up! 

One of her communications from before today admitted that she might not be able to get with him now. The enabler then tells her to do what makes her happy, but to be prepared to be alone, because the grass isn't always greener on the other side. Gee...ya think!? How about coming to the realization that it's NOT greener on the other side before losing you kids and loving husband, who you already kicked in the nuts (figuratively speaking).

One of the other things that galls me is that she was always so reserved with me, sexually and in terms of communications to me. I really, REALLY wish she had sent me dirty texts like the ones she sent to him. I would have enjoyed "warming" her up immensely. I think I may want to tell her that at some point in the near future.


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## Acabado

> The enabler then tells her to do what makes her happy, but to be prepared to be alone, because the grass isn't always greener on the other side.


  I just don't get some pleople. Is enabler single or divorced? Does she have kids on her own?

There's an spanish expression for this: disparar con pólvora ajena


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## Chaparral

Are you following the MAP plan in Married Man Sex Life?


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## happyman64

Falcon

Yeah, reserved my ass. Amazing how they can be like a different peron with the OM.

That is because it is a fantasy.

There is nothing wrong however, bringing her fantasy into your marriage where it belonged in the first place.

Keep working on it.

I'll snd you my chainsaw blade sharpener if you need it.

HM64


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## falconrap

Acabado said:


> I just don't get some pleople. Is enabler single or divorced? Does she have kids on her own?
> 
> There's an spanish expression for this: disparar con pólvora ajena


She was married more than a decade ago and got divorced. No kids. She's had problems dating men at times since. She's the type that thinks most men can't be trusted. She's told the WS that I can't be trusted. Yeah...OK. I told the wife the other day that if I wanted to hurt her, I would have done far far worse than what I did. Vindictive I was not.


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## falconrap

chapparal said:


> Are you following the MAP plan in Married Man Sex Life?


Pretty much. I take the kids places without consideration of her wishes, but let her know she's welcome to join us. I've been doing strength training (5x5 plan for quickest gain). That's really helped me. I smile a lot around the house, pretending like everything is just fine, without going out of my way to talk to her or anything.


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## Thinkitthrough

I wonder what everyone else thinks about enablers. When my wife had her EA and then when she left me, she had an enabler telling her I did not deserve her and that she would be happier with another man.
I thought the woman was just a bitter frustrated woman, but I never anticipated the influence she had. Should some effort be made to separate the WW from her enabler?
Falconrap: I hope it all is going to work out the way you want it. You just keep hanging in. I have noticed in many of the threads that the BS hangs in until the going gets tough and the thread fades away. I have also noticed that the men and women who are commenting have some to the best and most consistant advice and suggestions. One way or another you are going to make it.


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## falconrap

To be honest, during the last couple of years as the frequency of sex stayed very low, and I started wondering if it was more than weight, I began thinking of moving on. So I've kind of been prepared for this for a while. Now that I know she's been in this A with the fog, I can honestly state that I have at least some hope that I can get the real woman in there back and make our marriage far stronger than ever. But if I can't, I'll move on and find someone else who appreciates a good man. This time I'll make sure I know their needs...and their fantasies! I think I can still find this with my wife. Only time will tell. 

I'll keep doing my thing, and, at every opportunity, I make sure she realizes that I am more than capable of being what she wants, at least for the most part. And, more importantly, I'm much more of a sure thing without all of the nasty consequences.


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## falconrap

The withdrawal is starting. She mentioned to the enabler that it hurts not talking with the guy and that she hopes he'll wait for her. So she is clearly clinging to that hope, but feeling the withdrawal. She mentioned she's prepared to be alone, which I don't believe. That is definitely fog talk, because I know now much she hates being truly alone and how she has always wanted to grow old with someone (that was me). I think I might bring up the sexting issue tonight or tomorrow. I want to put another chip in that shield. I am in a technical field, but I've always been an aspiring writer, and I've managed some pretty intense "talk" with woman before my wife. Far better than what I've seen from her mystical dweeb OM. She was always so reserved from the start, though.

It's amazing what these A's do to people. It's also amazing what you can learn from them, should reconciliation occur. Taking the kids out myself today. More 180 and taking care of me and the kids without her. Chip...chip...chip.


----------



## warlock07

> One of the other things that galls me is that she was always so reserved with me, sexually and in terms of communications to me. I really, REALLY wish she had sent me dirty texts like the ones she sent to him. I would have enjoyed "warming" her up immensely. I think I may want to tell her that at some point in the near future.


Ouch...Reminds me of decimated's wife.

How will you be sure that she won't choose you as a back up, now that the OM isn't available ? She will always idealize him in her mind. She will have to lose you before she realizes that she needs you. Don't be so available.


----------



## anchorwatch

falconrap said:


> One of the other things that galls me is that she was always so reserved with me, sexually and in terms of communications to me. I really, REALLY wish she had sent me dirty texts like the ones she sent to him. I would have enjoyed "warming" her up immensely. I think I may want to tell her that at some point in the near future.





falconrap said:


> To be honest, during the last couple of years as the frequency of sex stayed very low, and I started wondering if it was more than weight, I began thinking of moving on.





falconrap said:


> The withdrawal is starting. She mentioned to the enabler that it hurts not talking with the guy and that she hopes he'll wait for her. So she is clearly clinging to that hope, but feeling the withdrawal. She mentioned she's prepared to be alone, which I don't believe.


This is the reason, you've been unsuccessful at the relationship with her. The game was fixed, you were not on an even playing field. All that time, no mater what you did, you efforts were doomed. It was hidden from you, so you never had a chance. You were provider, protector, dad, husband, and he got the benefits for years. Is she remorseful for deceiving you at all? 

Your efforts will not have a chance, until she realizes he is not an option. Keep chipping.


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## falconrap

She tells me that she's always had these feeling for him, but it's amazing that he wasn't even a passing thought until she had a text contact with him in 08. She's probably been building the wall for the last 4 years. Reality has been gone from her for quite some time, but once it comes back, I think it will hit hard. The guy bolted on her, again, without even so much as a whimper. And she knows she can't just up and leave right now. Hard to have a chance against an image, but I've put a lot of cracks in that image, and it is only a matter of time before it explodes on her. Whether or not I will always be plan B or not is hard to say. At this point if I can get her back, I think I can convert her to believing in me as plan A. Right now she's feeling the withdrawl. 

In one way, it's good that they had such a distance separating them, as it prevented this from being a long term PA, which would have been far worse, and would have likely made me throw in the towel already. One minute I can see the doubts...the next she thinks she will be fine, even if she is alone. The simple reality is, she is not in her right mind right now. Even her parents, who have always been very close to her, have been cutoff and they don't recognize this woman. The only chance I really have is seeing this current state of mind falter and fall by the wayside while the real woman I know comes back out and starts hurting for the pain she caused.

I just need to keep chipping away at the fascade until it's revealed for what it really is. Until, I watch for moments to put another crack in it.


----------



## TDSC60

falconrap said:


> She tells me that she's always had these feeling for him, but it's amazing that he wasn't even a passing thought until she had a text contact with him in 08. She's probably been building the wall for the last 4 years. Reality has been gone from her for quite some time, but once it comes back, I think it will hit hard. The guy bolted on her, again, without even so much as a whimper. And she knows she can't just up and leave right now. Hard to have a chance against an image, but I've put a lot of cracks in that image, and it is only a matter of time before it explodes on her. Whether or not I will always be plan B or not is hard to say. At this point if I can get her back, I think I can convert her to believing in me as plan A. Right now she's feeling the withdrawl.
> 
> In one way, it's good that they had such a distance separating them, as it prevented this from being a long term PA, which would have been far worse, and would have likely made me throw in the towel already. One minute I can see the doubts...the next she thinks she will be fine, even if she is alone. The simple reality is, she is not in her right mind right now. Even her parents, who have always been very close to her, have been cutoff and they don't recognize this woman. The only chance I really have is seeing this current state of mind falter and fall by the wayside while the real woman I know comes back out and starts hurting for the pain she caused.
> 
> I just need to keep chipping away at the fascade until it's revealed for what it really is. Until, I watch for moments to put another crack in it.


She is not the only one who is in a fog of denial.


----------



## falconrap

Denial? Not really. Personally, I think she has a very deep seeded issue with self-esteem and something about this contact and fantasy snapped something in her. I know for a fact that no PA happened until May. I know for a fact that contact was very light until August of last year, when the guy apparently started having issues in his marriage and got divorced. Her weight has been the constant the whole time, though, and this little fantasy of hers must be the escape she thinks she can get from the whole situation here. She was crazy about me before this all started. I can tell the difference in the way she treated me then versus the last 4 years, more so the last 7 months when her fantasy seemed to be in grasp.

Let's be totally honest here. Almost everyone in a relationship tends to be a plan B at some point. I'm not going to reconcile with her is she doesn't focus, and stay focused, on me. Right now she's in withdrawal, so this is all moot for now anyways. If she snaps out of the fog, I believe she will be fully remorseful. But if she isn't, I'm going to cut the cord. I can't deal with a cheater any further than I have. If I didn't realize that she was not right in the head at the moment (addicted to this guy), I would have stopped trying. I almost did after she first told me, as I said, "fine, if that is what you want" to her. Only reading about waywards and how they do these things and why, as kept me sane enough to make this a go.


----------



## falconrap

The crux of it all? What I believe has truly happened; i.e. The real root. The OM was her high school love who she thought she would always be with. He cheated on her when she started college, dumped her and later married. I believe this event triggered her deep self-esteem issues. Issues that I noticed from day one, but have worked on over the years. She has always been ultra-shy about her appearance. Always wanting sex in the dark. Never wanting to do things where I could have unfettered viewing of her (never showering with me, even during the "hottest" moments in our relationship). Just as the stress was high,and her weight had stayed on from the first pregnancy, this guy contacts her (or vice versa, I forget), and suddenly he is the key to solving this self-esteem issue. If she can just get back with him and prove he was wrong, then she will forever feel better about herself (in her mind at least), because she'll prove he simply screwed up and didn't dump her for who she is. This is some deep psychology going on with this, but everything points to exactly this. If I can snap her out of this fog, she WILL need IC to deal with these issues or she'll never be whole again. For now, though, I have to deal with her current state of mind and get her past this mess and to wake-up.

This has never been about me. Every time we have talked it's been "I can only be happy with him...it's nothing you did" and she can only come up with a few trivial things to try to point to. This guy must have really tore her up back then, and I have to try to put the window back together. I hope I can, because the kind, caring woman I knew is still in there burried under this mess. I didn't really want to state all of this, like this, here, but I just did.


----------



## anchorwatch

You should explained what you just posted to her.


----------



## falconrap

I know. I figured this out about a week ago, but I've kind of skirted the root cause for the overall issues. Right now I don't think she will listen to me telling her this, so I'm kind of looking for the right time. If she doesn't get the right help for her core problem, she'll never truly settled down after this episode, and it will ruin her life. But, like an alcoholic, she has to want to seek help. Quite frankly, if she can get over her self-esteem issues, I think she can learn to really appreciate a husband like me. She probably knows, deep down inside, what the problem is. Probably why her screwed up head thinks this is the solution. I think I'm going to play a little psychology on her Monday and leave my ring on my desk, where I know she needs to get something. Might clue her in that I'm ready to move on, and might jump start some more serious conversation.

I'm praying for her, and my family, everyday. She needs help that I can't give her. I'll pray for guidance on when to broach it. I've had some amazing epiphanies come about after some of these prayer sessions. Wish me luck!


----------



## walkonmars

Falcon:
It is so sad to see you struggle so hard at making excuses for her. I hope you're right about her self-esteem issues. I worry about yours as you continue to bail water from a sinking ship. Good luck.


----------



## MattMatt

walkonmars said:


> Falcon:
> It is so sad to see you struggle so hard at making excuses for her. I hope you're right about her self-esteem issues. I worry about yours as you continue to bail water from a sinking ship. Good luck.


Sometimes you have to do stuff. The captain always bails water if his ship is in danger of sinking.


----------



## Acabado

falconrap said:


> The crux of it all? What I believe has truly happened; i.e. The real root. The OM was her high school love who she thought she would always be with. He cheated on her when she started college, dumped her and later married. I believe this event triggered her deep self-esteem issues. Issues that I noticed from day one, but have worked on over the years. She has always been ultra-shy about her appearance. Always wanting sex in the dark. Never wanting to do things where I could have unfettered viewing of her (never showering with me, even during the "hottest" moments in our relationship). Just as the stress was high,and her weight had stayed on from the first pregnancy, this guy contacts her (or vice versa, I forget), and suddenly he is the key to solving this self-esteem issue. If she can just get back with him and prove he was wrong, then she will forever feel better about herself (in her mind at least), because she'll prove he simply screwed up and didn't dump her for who she is. This is some deep psychology going on with this, but everything points to exactly this. If I can snap her out of this fog, she WILL need IC to deal with these issues or she'll never be whole again. For now, though, I have to deal with her current state of mind and get her past this mess and to wake-up.
> 
> This has never been about me. Every time we have talked it's been "I can only be happy with him...it's nothing you did" and she can only come up with a few trivial things to try to point to. This guy must have really tore her up back then, and I have to try to put the window back together. I hope I can, because the kind, caring woman I knew is still in there burried under this mess. I didn't really want to state all of this, like this, here, but I just did.


I think you have this pretty much nailed it. People with low self steem have their own milestones. Everyone here knows well how deep rejection hurts. I think she wants to undo the rejection from her youth, being with him will confirm finnaly her worth. Pretty sad.
I wonder whether this man is also more than this man. Do you believe in her mind OM was always a trade up for her? Access to a different social circle, a "better" lifestyle (They one she deerved, aspired to?


----------



## Complexity

walkonmars said:


> Falcon:
> It is so sad to see you struggle so hard at making excuses for her. I hope you're right about her self-esteem issues. I worry about yours as you continue to bail water from a sinking ship. Good luck.


I agree 
It's pretty depressing to see him go through this.


----------



## MattMatt

Oh, c**p! My own low self esteem, worsened by my wife's affair, actually precipitated my own affair.


----------



## The bishop

I just don't understand why you are willing to settle as Plan B. He is her Plan A and always will be, he can come to her anytime (years from now, and have her whenever her wants). Why are you ok with this? Not to mention she now knows you are willing to accept this so, there is no reason for her not to pursue him or anyone else; you lack of action, your lack of giving her consequences are setting a disturbing presidence. 

There are so many beautiful trusting women out there who will love you and just you. 

Wow, no one I mean no one should have that much control as your wife has over you. As a cheater myself, you are a cheaters dream SO.


----------



## happyman64

Falcon

You and your family are in my prayers.

HM64


----------



## falconrap

First of all, I'm fine. I'm sleeping normally now, and I don't have depression like symptoms as I did before. It's easy to say I am making excuses for her. I'm not. People simply do things for reasons, and I worked hard to try and figure out why she did this. Once I learned who the guy was, what he looked like, and what he did for a living, I realized something deeper was at play. I'm definitely better looking than the guy, my job field is more prestigious than his, and I'm pretty sure I'm much smarter than him (though I was clearly to trusting of the wife).

I always knew she had deep self-esteem issues. Just never thought that they would lead her down this path. Is this a sinking ship? Possibly. But I can bail at anytime. I'm more worried about the kids, and, deep down, I still love the woman I married, though not the woman she has become. She must get counseling. It's the only hope this marriage has. If she doesn't, I have to cut the cord and watch as she destroys her own life, and that's not a sight I want to see.

Through this whole mess, I originally wondered what it was about THIS guy. If it were me, why not someone local? As I got more info from her communications, the pieces fell into place. For her, this guy is the key to unlocking her esteem issues. Pretty sad and pathetic when you take a distant view. And a realization that I might fail to save this if she doesn't get this personal issue under control.

As I have said before, I'll keep chipping away at her fantasy. If the opening is there, I will push for counseling. Her parents offered to pay for it, so I might be able to leverage that as a way for her to also let her parents do something for her, as she has been pi**ed about them trying to "interfere" in her "personal business."


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## falconrap

Acabado said:


> I think you have this pretty much nailed it. People with low self steem have their own milestones. Everyone here knows well how deep rejection hurts. I think she wants to undo the rejection from her youth, being with him will confirm finnaly her worth. Pretty sad.
> I wonder whether this man is also more than this man. Do you believe in her mind OM was always a trade up for her? Access to a different social circle, a "better" lifestyle (They one she deerved, aspired to?


To more directly address this, she has been wanting to move back up north to be closer to her family. But I have told her that I am willing to move up north, even to her home state. Right now, however, our finances and home would probably require that we wait another 5 years before we can, though we could maybe do it in 3, if we pushed it. So the lure of getting out now, might be a part of it, but I think undoing the original rejection is the key. I kind of always knew that the cheating incident hit her hard. I look back at the signs and think, what if I had gotten her to seek help a few years ago? Personally frustrating for me, as I almost feel responsible for this in some way, even though I know I am not. Ultimately, she is the one that has to either deal with this or pay the piper. Obviously, I want her to deal with it.


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## falconrap

The bishop said:


> I just don't understand why you are willing to settle as Plan B. He is her Plan A and always will be, he can come to her anytime (years from now, and have her whenever her wants). Why are you ok with this? Not to mention she now knows you are willing to accept this so, there is no reason for her not to pursue him or anyone else; you lack of action, your lack of giving her consequences are setting a disturbing presidence.
> 
> There are so many beautiful trusting women out there who will love you and just you.
> 
> Wow, no one I mean no one should have that much control as your wife has over you. As a cheater myself, you are a cheaters dream SO.


Actually, she's already dealing with the first set of consequences. Her family isn't supporting her actions, and she is now at odds with her parents, whom she has always been very close (calls them every week - until this). The other actions she will be dealing with, which I already pretty much spelled out for her, is that she won't be taking the kids, something she thought as a slam dunk before. I will be reiterating that point to drive it home. I already told her that, in my state, having an affair will greatly affect the level of time-sharing between the parents. Further, she has been cut off from the OM, as he bailed like a little chicken s**t. She's already feeling the pain of withdrawal.

As to being plan B, I believe I am only plan B because she thinks this guy is her savior. Her key to undoing the rejection of the past. I believe that, once this core issue is dealt with (I'm talking psychiatry here, not just lifting the fog) that this will no longer be the case. If I get her to get help, and I later find that I am still plan B, I will have to reconsider. If I was alone without kids, this would be an easy decision. At this point, I'm fighting for my family, not just my own feelings. What can I say? I've never been a quitter...and I really hate to lose!

Yeah...I know...smack me upside the head!


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## falconrap

Just a fun observation: I sit here watching the little things she does and just wondering what thoughts are actually going around that hamster wheel. For the past 4 weeks she has occasionally updated her FB wall and cover picture with inspirational pictures/quotes (making your own destiny, you only live once - stuff like that). Today, she decides to change her FB cover to that of a vehicle that she has wanted more so than the one I got her before this whole mess went down. The only word that comes to my mind right now is...nuts!


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## falconrap

The kids clearly know something is up. Last night my youngest wanted me to come watch a movie with her and mom. She insisted on me being there, and I could tell the wife wasn't exactly thrilled. Today, the older one wanted me to go with them somewhere that the wife had planned on just going by herself with the kids. He was quite insistent, but I knew it wouldn't be a good idea, so I didn't go.

This is probably the saddest part of it all. Times like this I would just like to kick her a**. She's lucky I don't hit women. Of course, my son keeps kicking and hitting her, which is a problem I need to fix, but it's almost justice served in a way. Ugh.


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## the guy

Dude, I'm sorry but I would never let my oldlady dictate how I responde to my kids..........screw that!!!!! Hell I've taken a seat on the coach knowing my oldlady is screwing around, but you know what, thats her sh!t to deal with, I'm going to take my place, in my house and with my kids, on my couch, no matter how much I want to start pushing my fWW around again.

IDK, maybe its me, but once you start hitting your wife and learned the tools to stay in control and not let her crap get to you anymore ...its like nothing can phase me....its all about the kids and however my oldlady wants to behave is on her cuz the new the_guy is now a man that no longer hits his wife but loves his kids more then knowing my oldlady getting banged by some 20 something kid....thats just me, it ain't going to happen.

In short I will sit were I want and with whome I want. And I no longer have to react to my chics reaction.

DUDE DON'T LET YOUR OLDLADY DEFINE YOU!!!!!!!!!THOSE ARE YOUR KIDS .......F^CK HER!!!!!!

The day I let some chic control my emotions is the day I cut off my balls off. Back in the day when I was swinging on my chic I had no balls! That will never happen again.

My point here is stop letting your chick control your emotions. Thats all, sorry it took me so long to get to the point.


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## the guy

Those are your kids ...never let anyone or anything prevent you from sitting down and spending time with them.


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## falconrap

Oh, don't get me wrong. I've just been doing things with the kids regardless of what she is doing. I simply chose not to go (hey...the game was on!). Last night, I went into the room to watch TV with my littlest because she wanted it, not the wife, and I had no problem doing it. Basically, I'm just doing what I want without asking permission, something she's actually still doing (asking permission, that is).


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## falconrap

Just journaling my journey for now, as I wait through the long withdrawal period. She posted a quote on FB about things not always working out as you planned, but having faith that things happen for a reason. An interesting selection to say the least. Would be fascinating to see what is really going on in her thoughts. She was almost normal yesterday, so I believe the anger has generally subsided. I will continue to do Plan A and see if she continues to soften her behavior with me.


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## GetTough

falconrap said:


> Just journaling my journey for now, as I wait through the long withdrawal period. She posted a quote on FB about things not always working out as you planned, but having faith that things happen for a reason. An interesting selection to say the least. Would be fascinating to see what is really going on in her thoughts. She was almost normal yesterday, so I believe the anger has generally subsided. I will continue to do Plan A and see if she continues to soften her behavior with me.


Take your focus off her dude. GFTOW.


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## falconrap

I'm not focused on her, just journaling my thoughts here. I got a FB notice, clicked on it, and saw what she had done (sharing the particular quote) just thought it was fascinating, and worth noting here for future reference. I'm in the "just do things for me and the kids mode," but I don't want to forget the things she does so I am writing them here and in my journal. Nothing more.

I noticed a lot of folks drop off the radar when they are in this period, and so others don't see the long, slow, daily withdrawal. Thought it was the least I could do to contribute.


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## happyman64

Good Luck Falcon.

Let me know how it goes when you take the kids away for the weekend or on vacation without her.

I cannot wait for that quote or FB post........


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## falconrap

Right now, I'm still planning to take the kids to her folks place for Thanksgiving. They want to see the kids, and the kids deserve to go. As of now, she has no intention of going. Will be really interesting to see if the fog lifts enough by then for her to change her mind. Right now, I'm of the mind set that 6 months is the more likely time-frame.

I will take the kids somewhere again this weekend, without her, unless she chooses to follow my lead. I don't really care if she goes, which is good. But I would certainly be somewhat encouraged if she did. Documenting the day to day stuff let's me quickly know the degree of change I am seeing over time, so that I don't dwell on her state any further. It lets me feel free to do things for myself, knowing I have set the wheel rolling down the hill, knowing it will eventually pick up speed and hit something at the bottom!


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## Chaparral

Uuuuhhmmmm , well , you know , its like this. I have been here over a year, been involved in over a thousand threads and Plan A has worked for only one poster, if you consider he came back and the affair had gone underground a success.

On the other hand, the MAP plan in Married Man Sex Life has worked many many times. Here is a qoute I recieved today.


Originally Posted by bff 
Hey brother,

I just wanted to thank you again for being so persistent in recommending the Married Man Sex Life Primer to me! I *love* this book! I'm only 20% of the way through, but already I feel like I have so much more of an understanding about how/why relationships work and/or don't work. I can see so many things that I did wrong in my previous relationships, up to and including my marriage. I can absolutely see why she wandered... not that I'm going to take the blame for her making the decision to cheat, but still. I already have someone (an ex co-worker) that I've always had a crush on. I'm sort of in the "friend zone" with her right now, and I can see how I would totally go all Beta on her and NEVER get out of that zone. This is like a manual for how to be a guy!!!!!

Anyway, thank you, thank you!

BFF


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## falconrap

Ok, I can see there is some confusion on what I am doing. I've basically been doing the 180 MAP since middle of August. She hadn't budged. So now I am at least taking opportunities to listen to her - generally only when she starts talking - and I just sit somewhere near her and do my own thing. Kind of a "I'm going to do what I want, and sit where I want" kind of attitude, but one that also keeps me near for the possibility of filling her quality time needs. I'm leading her into spending quality time, and she seems to be responding to it better than anything else I have done. She knows she was wrong (per her own words to the enabler) and she is all embarrassed and upset about others knowing. So she is appears to be starting to withdraw and a little bit of the fog is lifting, but she's got a long way to go.

I am waiting for an opportunity, possibly this weekend (it's been two weeks since exposure at that point) to lay out her 2 main choices. 1) a divorce in which she won't be getting the kids or house, and will likely end up making child support payments to me and have to stay employed making her current level of pay because state law is based on earning potential (oooohhhh, don't think she though of dat!), or 2) my renewal plan that forces her to come clean, give me full access to her communications, and makes her join me on a proven marriage building program. If she doesn't show signs of coming out and at least considering reconciliation within a month after, it's big D filing time, and that will be her last chance. Once that goes through, I ain't taking her back.

In the meantime, I continue to workout (I've gotten stronger and lost 15lbs in the last 3 weeks), no longer get depressed (I'm so over letting her dictate my feelings), and continue to take the kids places, with or without her, her choice.

Each woman, and situation, is different. The MAP works wonders for some women, and not for others. The Plan A works for a few, but not most. Plan B (Divorce) works on a lot more, but not all. You have to really get in your WS' head to figure out which plan offers you the best success. The 180 has had very little impact on my wife. So it's change or fail. I'm still doing MAP for me. Just adding other things to try and get a positive response from her, without really violating the 180. Make sense?


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## falconrap

More journaling: My wife came out of our D's room last night crying, but trying to act ok. She later asked me about e-mails between me and her parents. I only gave her some general info on what we talked about (stuff she should have expected), but she was adamant she wanted to see what they wrote. Of course, I told her no, and that if she wanted to know, she needed to ask them, and maybe the would show her. At this point she hasn't earned seeing my communications. That will only come when she has been honest and transparent with me for a long enough period of time for me to believe she is being honest.

It appears she is really starting to feel the pain of what she has done. Which is good, as she can't exit the fog and begin renewal without this. I will continue my course and keep all abreast of the changes I see. I wish this process was faster, but at least I am seeing "some" progress.


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## happyman64

Stay strong Falcon.

And you were right about your emails.

She does not deserve to see them.

Judge her by her actions.

HM64


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## anchorwatch

happyman64 said:


> Stay strong Falcon.
> 
> And you were right about your emails.
> 
> She does not deserve to see them.
> 
> Judge her by her actions.
> 
> HM64


:iagree:

That was a good move you deferred her to them. That was private counsel they gave you. If she wanted their counsel she could go to them at anytime. She turned that down. As it was contrary to what she wanted. All she has to do is ask them, but she won't because she's embarrassed they know the truth about her deception.


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## falconrap

Yeah, she wasn't getting that from me. It's still amazing - though fog talk should be proof enough for me - that she actually thought they would think differently if she gave her side of the story on Thanksgiving! I mean...please! I still can't get over that. What's even funnier is in her email to them she told them how she was old enough, that she was 40 now, and big enough to make her own mistakes. Well, yeah dear, except, 1) your 41 not 40 and 2) you have children and a husband!

Ugh.

Wish me luck and prayers. We are going to be entering the third week, so I'm hoping by next weekend the anger and resentment over the loss will have tapered way down.


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## falconrap

Update: OK, Saturday ended up being hectic with the kids. I dropped them off with my dad, as planned, but nearly an hour later than desired. Me and the WS ate together at home then started talking about our budget (a much needed talk that went quite well). She ended up having to write me 2 checks, and she was shaking her head at the stupidity of doing it, writing them to me instead of her, as she said it just didn't feel right. We ended up seeing eye-to-eye on the budget and agreed to follow Dave Ramsey's plan to get us in much better financial position. Unfortunately, this talk went way longer than I had planned, and then I had to get the kids. Having already had a long day, and not getting the kids in bed until around 10:30, I was just a little too tired to attempt to give her my plan (I tend to say some really stupid s__t when I'm tired!). So I decided to hold off and seek a better time between Sunday and next weekend, at the latest.

This might have been a blessing in disguise, though. Ever since bomb drop, and especially since exposure day, she has always looked and acted contemptible around me. She hadn't felt comfortable around me in months. Yesterday, I did the groceries early, as I normally do, and I purchased the wrong item for a desert she was making, as well as forgot to get something else for it (my shopping list on my phone decided to drop the second item on me!). Since I had another shopping to do, and having screwed up the one item (the other was her fault for not correctly describing what she needed), I went ahead and stopped at the store again on the way to the other and got the correct item. She noted that I didn't need to make a special trip and thanked me. The rest of the day she was totally different with me. What I had seen in drips, her laughing and talking to me in spots, turned into a gusher. All day she was very jovial around me, and would talk to me without issue. When she would talk with me, she would look straight at me with a happy demeanor, as opposed to her more normal "pissed" look and her tendency to only look at me straight in quick bursts, frequently looking off my gaze. She was generally happy all day long. She did have some emails with the enabling cousin, who let her know that the OM hadn't responded to her either (it appears from multiple communications that they, in fact, never did get sexual in there meet-up; don't know the details yet, and still don't fully trust this, but the evidence against something happening is a little bit too much to ignore it now - finding out EXACTLY what did and did not happen will be needed from her). She made absolutely no comment about that at all.

This morning, we had a chance for another moment of brief laughter and communication before I left, and her reaction was the same; looking me straight in the eye the whole time with a happy demeanor. I think what I have been doing is starting to slowly work on her. I'm cautious, about this, of course, but I could feel and see a total change in her demeanor toward me. I think the fact that he isn't communicating with her, and I'm being a good father and husband, is starting to really wear down her defenses. I'll keep doing what I am doing and see if the mood continues to improve. This is the third week of withdrawal, and I've seen repeated comments in places about the strongest withdrawal symptoms tapering off this week. We'll see.

For now I'll just keep documenting here, and in my journal, what I am seeing and feeling. I am more hopeful now that she can be turned back, as she is seeing the things in me that first attracted her too me. I'll continue the 180 and find little opportunities to score the right kind of points with her without her feeling I'm needy. So far that's been working the best. Thanks for all the support and help.


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## happyman64

Good update Falcon.

Stay on it and I hope you see further progress.


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## falconrap

I'm expecting this to be a give and take, back and forth, as she starts to unwind this state and I continue to show her that I am someone worth being with. I know there will be steps back to go with the ones forward. Yesterday's breakthrough gives me hope that I'm no longer fighting an impossible battle. For once, there is hope. I have to temper myself, knowing full well she's not fully there yet and will continue to still get foggy at times.

Keepin' at it.


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## the guy

That update realy brought home the fact how important NC is when dealing with this crap.

IMHO it shows what an effect it can have when the AP is not influencing the dynamics of the marriage. I hope many here in this unfurtinate community see this update.

Sure the both of you have a lot of work infront of you...we all do!

I'm curious in how much the enabler is effecting the marriage, it appears your WW was not much effected by the emails...or was it just the fact that the OM hasn't even contacted the enabler?

I think if in fact the enabler has been incontact with OM your WW demeaner might have been different?


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## anchorwatch

Be careful, Falcon. She may be only relaxing her demeanor in your presence due to the separation of finances. Yet the lack of contact with the OM seams to be working it's effects. It does no good her toxic cousin continues to push for contact with the OM in her behalf. Each time he is mentioned she goes backward into the fog. It may be necessary to formulate a plan to take the enabler out of the picture. Explore the idea of sharing her cousins previous threats to you and her interference in your marriage with the field office or headquarters in DC. Maybe an IG report, DOJ or your local congressman. Just a thought. Even if she doesn't use government resources for contact (during work hours or work email), she at least threatened you outside of her jurisdiction or used her position to influence a private family matter. 

The more time spent in NC and with the family, the cleared her thinking. Stay calm and resolved. Keep at it.


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## falconrap

At this point, the continued failure for the OM to contact my wife is, IMHO, really bringing reality home. She now has to feed off the "hope" the guy will wait for her, and it is probably seeming less likely everyday for her. The enabler hasn't had a lot of contact recently. The last time they talked was 5 days ago then last night, all via email. She continues to mention to my wife that she's there for her on this path, but that she may not get what she wants out of it. This continued reinforcement of the possibility that things won't work out on her preferred path, is probably more effective than what the cousin has been trying to do and say in favor of the wife.

Subconsciously, I think my wife is starting to see that the one route isn't looking so good now. The more and more I show myself to be a good husband and father, the more and more I think it is reinforcing to her that maybe, just maybe, there's something good here. She ain't there yet, but yesterday was the first chunk of her wall falling.

Anchor, I know what you are talking a out in terms of the finances, but she wasn't like this that night, nor early in the morning yesterday. I think that one act of "making it right" in terms of the groceries, just clicked something in her. It was only a few minutes later that her whole demeanor shifted. Quite honestly, it took me by surprise. I had to temper myself, because she actually seemed like the woman I married. It was great, but I also know that it will be back and forth and I can't take too much comfort in it. I will keep doing what I am doing, as it appears to be working. I hope the OM doesn't make any more contact, because, so far, it is working.

I keep praying for God to block all her paths away from me and to guide her back and open her heart. Bit by bit, I see this happening. I'll keep posting what I see and hope this helps others, as well as keeping me sane!


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## anchorwatch

Just don't lose yourself in this and become Mr Nice Guy. Remember the MAP. Good work, falcon.


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## Acabado

> She continues to mention to my wife that she's there for her on this path, but that she may not get what she wants out of it.


Enabler senses this "love story" she was living vicariously is not going to happen. She doesn't want to be cutted off once OM is a stupid memory so she plays the supportive of two paths. I'm sure she was way more agressive in supporting/ecnouraging your wife's delusions until recently. She senses she chose the wrong horse.

Glad to hear you wife is more herself.


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## falconrap

Acabado said:


> Enabler senses this "love story" she was living vicariously is not going to happen. She doesn't want to be cutted off once OM is a stupid memory so she plays the supportive of two paths. I'm sure she was way more agressive in supporting/ecnouraging your wife's delusions until recently. She senses she chose the wrong horse.
> 
> Glad to hear you wife is more herself.


I agree. They have been really good friends for years and ever since I broke up the band she's been giving her the 2 sided talk. I think she wants to avoid losing her as a best friend if things don't go right. Which, of course, it won't. Does my wife really want to be alone? I think that reality is starting to peek its nose under my wife's tent. If she comes back to me, the enabler is at a big risk of really alienating herself to my wife. God forbid she ever wants to visit her at home!


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## falconrap

anchorwatch said:


> Just don't lose yourself in this and become Mr Nice Guy. Remember the MAP. Good work, falcon.


10-4 on that one! I throw in some nice things when they are appropriate, but I keep just doing things without any permission from her, and I am making sure I am a big part of the kids' days. Like I said, this combo seems to be getting the best results out of her. Making myself someone she wants to be around is working quite well.


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## Plan 9 from OS

OP, this really looks like you are content to be her "Plan B". Is this what you want to sign up for? Do you really want to reconcile just because the OM is giving your wife the cold shoulder? Bear with me because I am not in your shoes. However, I'd serve her with divorce papers and tell her that she has A LOT OF WORK to do in order for you to even consider reconciling with her. Maybe I'm a **** at heart, but as the fog lifts from you WW's eyes, I'd make her crawl over broken glass to get you back. JMO.


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## falconrap

Plan 9 from OS said:


> OP, this really looks like you are content to be her "Plan B". Is this what you want to sign up for? Do you really want to reconcile just because the OM is giving your wife the cold shoulder? Bear with me because I am not in your shoes. However, I'd serve her with divorce papers and tell her that she has A LOT OF WORK to do in order for you to even consider reconciling with her. Maybe I'm a **** at heart, but as the fog lifts from you WW's eyes, I'd make her crawl over broken glass to get you back. JMO.


In my case, I don't think I was plan B. I believe I became plan B due to her self-esteem issues, as noted earlier in this thread. The simple reality is that right now the OM has had her heart for the last year, possibly back to 2008. If I get him out of the picture, and she agrees to the renewal plan, I believe I can change that and be her plan A again. The reality is, everyone can turn into plan B under any circumstances. We all have to work at our marriages to be the plan A to our spouse.

I will plant the seeds of just what she is in for with divorce when I get the chance to tell her my plan. I will then let her stew in that, and continue to do things that make her feel like I'm someone she would rather be around. Right now she only "thinks" this guy is the s__t. It's all fog in her head. The more I do the right things, the more she realise that she fell for me for a reason.


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## the guy

As long as she is behaving like a loving wife then she diserves this reward. Whats concerning is the fact that NC is broken and then what?

I'm just saying its a b!tch to compete with new love.


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## anchorwatch

Falcon, just the fact that she saw you stand up and get rid of the OM as soon as you were confronted, scored you plenty of alpha points. She thought you would act beta and lay down. Instead you showed character and defended your house and her OM ran scared from the confrontation. That goes a long way in how she looks at you now, too. More than likely she hasn't seen that in you in a long time. Keep it up.

PS, Good to hear it wasn't PA


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## falconrap

anchorwatch said:


> Falcon, just the fact that she saw you stand up and get rid of the OM as soon as you were confronted, scored you plenty of alpha points. She thought you would act beta and lay down. Instead you showed character and defended your house and her OM ran scared from the confrontation. That goes a long way in how she looks at you now, too. More than likely she hasn't seen that in you in a long time. Keep it up.
> 
> PS, Good to hear it wasn't PA


Thanks. Definitely need to not be a doormat and only do things for her because I choose to. With all the stuff I saw that appears to indicate that it didn't go PA, I think it can help kill this. I did see something, which she has told me before, about her planning to wait things out and show up at his door. She seems most foggy at night when she's alone and reading emails on her iPhone. But the way she was yesterday with me was undeniably different. When I have that discussion with her, I'm going to put a nail through that whole "she can just up and leave after divorce" thought, and hopefully push this thing over the edge. As long as he doesn't make contact, I have time and my ability to be someone worth being around on my side. I do wonder if she's noticed that I'm sitting at 195lbs instead of 210 (I'm a couple inches over 6'). Maybe I need to walk by her without my shirt on and give her a visual moment. I haven't been this light since we were dating.

She also wants me to completely cancel my Netflix to save money. I think I'll just drop the streaming and take it down to the one DVD plan and man-up that decision. Either that, or I'll let her know that movies are out of the picture for her. It's either we both agree to be tight wads, or I'm keeping my little bit of entertainment.


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## falconrap

the guy said:


> As long as she is behaving like a loving wife then she diserves this reward. Whats concerning is the fact that NC is broken and then what?
> 
> I'm just saying its a b!tch to compete with new love.


I think the only way I can compete with this is to make her love for me stronger than any "love" she has for the OM. As the EA runs out of steam, and I keep doing things that make her feel loved, without being her doormat, I believe I can win this battle. Why? In the end, despite her fog talk, I'm more compatible with her than the OM, I never cheated on her and dumped her, and I stood up and fought for her while he chickened out like the wuss he is. Just got to break through the fog until it lifts enough for her to realize all of this. The NC thing is the hard part. If she accepts my plan, I will take the necessary precautions to fix this (change emails and phone numbers, for example). She's like an alcoholic now. Got to keep the addiction away from her.


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## falconrap

The fog returns. As expected she continues to come back to the fog. She wrote another email to the enabler stating she knew what she did was wrong, but has no regrets and thinks the guy will wait, but she wants to stay out of contact because of the custody for the kids. Apparently she doesn't realize that she has already lost that battle. Spelling out what will happen in a divorce will get her attention, but I may need to then file to really have it hit home. I'll wait and see. Her email was while at work. When we first met up for something we had to do after work, she was a bit cold, but started to warm up some and did more when we got home.

She's definitely got some ping-ponging going on. She actually believes the guy is secretly waiting for her (says she has to have "faith" that he is). I think she has some reality that is going to slap her in the face. Watching her demeanor go back and forth is almost fascinating. It seems to flip like a switch. Her comments about him were more that she wasn't actually all that unhappy with me, she seemed to use it as an excuse for breaking it up with me. She has the EA pretty hard for the guy, for sure.

I generally love roller coasters, but this ride sucks! 

I'll keep at it, wear her down, and give her a way back which she mentions as an issue. When she's foggy, though, she doesn't want back, but I can tell she's having doubts at times. She gets bad when she's alone, then starts getting comfortable with me when I am around for a while. In for a long haul I am.


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## Plan 9 from OS

falconrap said:


> The fog returns. As expected she continues to come back to the fog. She wrote another email to the enabler stating she knew what she did was wrong, but has no regrets and thinks the guy will wait, but she wants to stay out of contact because of the custody for the kids. Apparently she doesn't realize that she has already lost that battle. Spelling out what will happen in a divorce will get her attention, but I may need to then file to really have it hit home. I'll wait and see. Her email was while at work. When we first met up for something we had to do after work, she was a bit cold, but started to warm up some and did more when we got home.
> 
> She's definitely got some ping-ponging going on. She actually believes the guy is secretly waiting for her (says she has to have "faith" that he is). I think she has some reality that is going to slap her in the face. Watching her demeanor go back and forth is almost fascinating. It seems to flip like a switch. Her comments about him were more that she wasn't actually all that unhappy with me, she seemed to use it as an excuse for breaking it up with me. She has the EA pretty hard for the guy, for sure.
> 
> I generally love roller coasters, but this ride sucks!
> 
> I'll keep at it, wear her down, and give her a way back which she mentions as an issue. When she's foggy, though, she doesn't want back, but I can tell she's having doubts at times. She gets bad when she's alone, then starts getting comfortable with me when I am around for a while. In for a long haul I am.


Sorry falcon, but I think you are having difficulties distinguishing the forest from among the trees. I understand you are trying to wear her down with a "war of attrition" and that you feel that if you exhibit enough favorable traits while the OM looks "less manly" due to him throwing your WW under the bus. However, I think you have to turn your situation upon its head and reevaluate your assumptions. If I was in your shoes, my thought would be this: despite all of the positive efforts that I have put forth and no matter how much better I come across compared to the OM, my wife still puts more energy into him than she does into me. You see where I'm coming from? The carrots aren't working...time to start using your sticks...

This is what I would say: "Wife, you have 24 hours to figure out whether you want to commit to me and this marriage or if you want to walk away in order to pursue a fiction that will never become reality. I love you more than words can describe, but I refuse to take a back seat to anyone. You either put me first in your life or you lose me forever. I have waited too long for you to decide and I will no longer allow my heart to be ripped to shreads and thrown into a sewer by you any longer. It's now or never."


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## falconrap

I've already touches basis with her on the divorce issue, I just haven't laid it all out in full. Basically, she already knows this stuff. What I am definitely seeing from her is withdrawal. It takes around 3 weeks for the worst symptoms to go away, and we are almost there by default. Waiting a little longer isn't going to harm anything because I have seen how she is acting versus what she is writing. Let me explain.

In her email earlier today, she mentioned that she is still crying every night about her OM and the lack of contact. Well, she was in fact doing that a couple nights back, stretching back to exposure day. Reality is, she lied to the enabler about last night. When she has been crying she does it before going to sleep and the effect is obvious, including in the morning. It was plain to see that she didn't cry last night. In fact, it appears she went to bed content. Believe me, the transformation yesterday was more than a few trees in a forest. It was dramatic. It was total night and day. Let me be blunt...she hadn't acted that way toward me in nearly a year. It's why I was kind of taken aback by it all. I had to kind of chill myself with reminders that this is a temporary high. She bounced back into fog, but, she was pretty agreeable with me again tonight, and exhibited much of the same behavior.

Now, I had intended on giving her the "divorce will do this to you, but here is my renewal plan if you so choose" speech on Saturday, but things didn't work out, as mentioned. I plan to do it no later than this weekend, one way or another. I know for a fact that the communication is ended and she is going through withdrawal and saying the stupid things that WS' say during this period. So time is on my side. I've almost completely recovered from what happened (I'm very strong in the willpower department and refuse to let anyone keep me down for long) so I can deal with the limbo for a few more weeks before pulling the divorce trigger. Please remember I have multiple considerations to deal with (kids, money, and work issues) that make it unattractive to pull that lever until I need to. I'm ready to do it, but it takes a lot of work in my state to file (lots of paperwork and time involved, and money that I really don't want to spend at the moment). The other issue is, I don't think my love will make it through the divorce proceedings. My love for her is hanging by a thread and once it's gone, I'm done with her. So I here you, and the divorce option is in my back pocket ready to be pulled. If it wasn't for the kids, I would have done it long ago to force the issue.


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## falconrap

She has been quite blunt with the enabler. She actually had the enabler try to get a message through and and didn't get a reply. The guy's job is federal, working with kids in the prison system, so I can guarantee that he probably s__t his pants at the thought that I knew his phone and address, and what he did for a living. Telling his employer what he is doing is a big threat hanging over his head, and since it appears they didn't go PA, and he had already been backing off a lot on his own because of what he went through (it appears he actually has a guilty concious) I knew he would bolt and probably not try to come back. She was his sure thing rebound girl after his recent divorce. Telling him that she has deep emotional issues and would likely end up cheating on him just added salt to the meal. Since he was backing off on his own before, it's clear he had strong reservations anyway, and now it is just way too big of a mess to be worth it to him. I mean the FIL already gave him a piece of his mind.

What dumb a** would want to enter into a relationship with a woman who cheated in her husband, with kids involved, when the husband knows who you are, where you live and work, and where the woman's family thinks you are a dirt ball, and when you actually dumped this same woman just after HS? I mean...seriously? Had they taken this thing physical and been doing the physical thing for a while, I could see the guy getting strong enough feelings to want to fight for her. But, since this is a guy, this has all been emotional not physical, which favors a woman, and not a man. We want to touch and play with the candy. Without the physical part, how is the guy going to really have attachment to her, at least of the level to put up with all of this?

Sorry for being long, but there is a LOT about all of this that I know, and I haven't put it all on this thread. I seriously doubt this guy wants anything to do with her now given everything I just said, and all of her communications state that. She's changing and I think I'm a week or two away from having this thing swing in my favor. I have the time and the patience to give it a couple more weeks and see. Nothing more.


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## falconrap

You aren't the only one. But really, I don't have much choice until she agrees to NC on her own nd can change her email and phone (save her work stuff). Kind of hard for a guy to want to carry on a 1000 mile affair with a woman when you haven't really gotten anything out of it except dirty talk. But if it doesn't die, the way most do after extended absence, then divorce it will be. I'm not prepared to stay with her if she can't fully withdraw from the guy and commit to me. I'm already prepared for that possibility.


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## The bishop

:slap: Good luck to you.... I don't understand what you are doing, I don't think it is going to work, and at some point she will contact him again and all those feelings will come rushing back.


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## falconrap

The bishop said:


> :slap: Good luck to you.... I don't understand what you are doing, I don't think it is going to work, and at some point she will contact him again and all those feelings will come rushing back.


She can contact the OM now. He just doesn't respond to her. Right now I have no control over her (she is an adult after all). In order to more securely eliminate the threat, I need her to agree to NC for life and change her email and cell number and be vigilant monitoring her accounts. She's not ready to do that, but I will present her with all the worst aspects of divorce, especially the impacts on the kids, and present her the renewal plan that requires NC and access to all of her accounts. It is only at that point that I can control the contact. Thankfully, the circumstances surrounding the OM have pretty much led him to taking himself out of the picture, and, due to what I know about this guy, I don't foresee him trying to make contact again. This guy was already voluntarily pulling back before I exposed and he got a call from the FIL and the email from me. What more can I do right now?

Right now, my timeline is for getting her to agree to my plan is the end of October. At that point I will make a decision based on where we are at. If she has agreed, or seems prepared to agree, then I have a plan. If she doesn't agree, and seems to be in the same mindset, I'm filing for divorce. What more should I do? I continue to do the 180 for myself (hasn't impacted her view of me at all as not all women respond to the 180), while just hanging around her waiting for her to engage me in quality time, just because I'm around. This has been effective on her. I've seen the most movement from her due to this approach. You have to try things and see how you spouse responds. They aren't all automatons that respond to exactly the same stimulus. You need to get a feel for whether or not what you are doing is working. Having been doing nothing but 180 for a month, I was getting nowhere, except in shape and spending time with the kids.

Now, I'm seeing very noticeable changes when I'm able to spend all day around her, though not in a clingy way - more the "just hanging around" way.


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## Chaparral

Have you read Married Man Sex Life yet?


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## falconrap

chapparal said:


> Have you read Married Man Sex Life yet?


Yes. I even stated as such in this thread. Sorry, but not every wife responds to the same things. I pulled out the 180 stops and got nada from her. I've also read 5 Love Languages, His Needs; Her Needs, and I'm in the middle of Surviving an Affair. There are obviously two camps on what to do, with both having success. The common theme with both camps is getting the affair killed, and, when needed, filing for divorce if they don't come out of the fog. The MMSL version says to totally ignore her and do your own thing, taking care of yourself, and hoping the woman becomes interested in you. The other camp says to find their needs and try to fill them, getting them to feel love for you again. Both have their merits, depending on the woman involved. My task has been figuring out which works for my wife.

The 180 has done wonders for me, and will prepare me should I go back on the market. It hasn't fazed her though. So I've mixed in a little plan A to get the ball rolling and it's been working. She continued tonight with talking with me and being the jovial woman she's been since Sunday, for the most part. She only seems to revert when she's been alone for extended time. So, basically, this is my call. I'm on the ground seeing what works and doesn't. My next step is to get her to agree to reconcile and NC the OM. If that doesn't happen by the end of October, I will file and bring reality to life for her. That will be the last straw, though. I have to fork over $418 just to file and have the papers served. Not too mention that the paperwork will probably take me at least 15-20 hours to fill out to even file. Or I could pay an attorney to do it for a few hundred dollars more. Needless to say, if what I am currently doing is getting results, I'll stick with it, at least for a while.

I'll adjust as needed and take advice given and use it. But if something isn't working, I'm not going to keep doing it.


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## Plan 9 from OS

falconrap said:


> Yes. I even stated as such in this thread. Sorry, but not every wife responds to the same things. I pulled out the 180 stops and got nada from her. I've also read 5 Love Languages, His Needs; Her Needs, and I'm in the middle of Surviving an Affair. There are obviously two camps on what to do, with both having success. The common theme with both camps is getting the affair killed, and, when needed, filing for divorce if they don't come out of the fog. The MMSL version says to totally ignore her and do your own thing, taking care of yourself, and hoping the woman becomes interested in you. The other camp says to find their needs and try to fill them, getting them to feel love for you again. Both have their merits, depending on the woman involved. My task has been figuring out which works for my wife.
> 
> The 180 has done wonders for me, and will prepare me should I go back on the market. It hasn't fazed her though. So I've mixed in a little plan A to get the ball rolling and it's been working. She continued tonight with talking with me and being the jovial woman she's been since Sunday, for the most part. She only seems to revert when she's been alone for extended time. So, basically, this is my call. I'm on the ground seeing what works and doesn't. My next step is to get her to agree to reconcile and NC the OM. If that doesn't happen by the end of October, I will file and bring reality to life for her. That will be the last straw, though. I have to fork over $418 just to file and have the papers served. Not too mention that the paperwork will probably take me at least 15-20 hours to fill out to even file. Or I could pay an attorney to do it for a few hundred dollars more. Needless to say, if what I am currently doing is getting results, I'll stick with it, at least for a while.
> 
> I'll adjust as needed and take advice given and use it. But if something isn't working, I'm not going to keep doing it.


To the best of my knowledge, the 180 is not supposed to "fix" a marriage. The goal of the 180 is to work on making you a better person by you doing a combination of self improvement and self esteem exercises. For example, physical activity is a way for you to 1) improve your health by physically and mentally, 2) Improve your attractiveness and 3) gives you a confidence boost. Reducing communication is again for your benefit because it attempts to remove you from the thick of things plus provides a benefit of you not looking like a needy wimp. I can go on, but the 180 is about you - not her. These are all tools to help you with more so than road maps to follow to the exact letter.


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## falconrap

Yes. But I've seen the premise being such that if you do the 180, and just kind of ignore the wife, and keep following your MAP, that they are supposed to start thinking "hey, who is this guy?" and want to be around you. This didn't work for me, which s the whole point. So now, I do things for me, but if the opportunity comes along to fill her needs without being needy, I do so, and this is what I am talking about. But I do need to give her my plan to renew th marriage and give her time to think about reconciling. Then, if that doesn't work, I will file and see if that works. If it doesn't, I'm back on the market for someone that will care about me the way I deserve.

Am I really wrong here? I think the arguing tends to be more about the timing. Too me the plan A and B are more about the time frame that the BS feels they can deal with the limbo of the marriage.

UPDATE: To add to this, this includes the whole Alpha/Beta thing. I thought I might have been to Beta with her, but when I upped the Alpha, it pushed her away. That's when I honestly sat down and though about things and realized I always had a good mix of Alpha and Beta traits, as I never had problems telling her no to things she wanted, or just doing things I wanted. When I realized that, I continued all of the 180 stuff and following the MAP, but started reading the stuff from Chapman and Harley and started realizing that maybe she needed to have me start to fulfill her needs to want to think of me in a loving way again. So I've done that to a degree, but only to the extend she is allowing, and not to the point where I appear clingy or needy. I hope I'm making sense here.


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## falconrap

And just to update a little more: She continues to be much nicer around me, and willing to laugh and small talk. I also have noticed that her emails with enablers have died down. One of her friends finally wrote her early yesterday, but she hasn't written back yet. Quite frankly, her communications about this stuff seem to be fading fast. Even on FB she's basically stopped putting up and sharing the "inspirational" quotes for herself. I think the tide is clearly shifting in my favor, I just hope it shifts enough that I can get her to agree to renew the marriage and to NC the guy properly.

Two and a half weeks after exposure, I can really see her anger with me virtually gone, and her withdrawal symptoms starting to fade. I don't know if she will be one that will get over this in a relatively short 1 month period, or if she'll still drag on some feelings for the guy for 6 months or more. Time will tell.


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## Chaparral

Be aware that you need to watch for things to go underground where they just hide it much better.

Sounds like things may be going your way though. Good luck.


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## falconrap

chapparal said:


> Be aware that you need to watch for things to go underground where they just hide it much better.
> 
> Sounds like things may be going your way though. Good luck.


Thanks. I thought about the hiding thing, but she was determined to "not live her life worrying about it" when it came to me being able to view stuff. The interesting thing is she still hasn't responded to her friends email, and she got a couple of emails from the enabling cousin this morning and she hasn't yet responded to those either. I kind of expect her to do so, but it is interesting that she isn't jumping at the chance to agree what an a-hole I am, and how she is so unhappy with me - something that would be hard to say considering how she's been since early Sunday.

Time will tell. I'll keep being someone she would like to be around, and keep working on her lowering her defenses, and we'll see if she becomes agreeable to renewing our marriage.


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## The bishop

I hope it works out for you but I really don't think it will. Affairs and cheating is like an addiction, the pull is so great. Even if she comes back to you, it will always be in the back of her mind. She will have no fear to do it again cause she knows that you will be there for her waiting for her to come back again. I believe, and I am a cheater who has experience with cheaters that a wayward has to truely see consequences (what she is going to lose), has to be disgusted by their actions, has to be willing to do anything and all the heavy lifting to save their marriage. 

So my fear is that she may wake up from this A. But the pull will be to great and she will do it again. Think of it this way, the A was everything she needed in her life, it made her life finally complete. What she felt was so real to her and was so needed... you do not want her to think this way, you want her to see reality and know there is so much she can lose, she has to be disgusted by it. 

She isn't and what you are doing hasn't changed that


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## falconrap

I get what you are saying. Keep in mind I've read several dozen threads on two different forums and gotten a lot of information on what works and doesn't work. In the case of my wife, her self-esteem issues drove her to a state of unhappiness and, when combined with me not fully meeting all of her emotional needs, led to her affair. Once she has gone through withdrawal, if I meet all of her needs and her level of love for me rises back to the romantic level, it won't really matter that the other guy was out there. I've seen this with quite a few waywards that only came around when their needs were being met and they starting feeling the level of attachments to their mate that they had when they got married. Just like with an alcoholic, it doesn't matter if they were disgusted with their actions or not...you still have to keep them away from the alcohol or they will become addicted again.

In other words, how they felt about what they did is generally irrelevant to recovery. It's the willingness to separate from the addiction and do everything in the power to stay away from it. I've seen examples where some waywards were never truly remorseful, but were willing to go through these plans and they are now very happy. Sure, it helps with getting their buy-in on the renewal if they are remorseful and disgusted by what they did, and it can speed the recovery up. But it's not mandatory that they do this, something I have learn from reading about other couples experiences. The critical part is the NC and the willingness of the wayward to do the program. If they buy in and do it, you generally have an excellent chance at the marriage both people always wanted and greatly reduce any risk that they will go outside of the marriage for their needs. After all, if you are meeting all of their emotional needs, and they are romantically in love with you, there is virtually no incentive for them to go outside.

Besides, my wife is already paying for her affair with her family, whom she as very, very close to. It's killing her that they know and don't approve of what she is doing. So she already sees a rather large consequence for her. If the tables were reversed, I don't have the connection my family that she has, so it wouldn't affect me. But for her, it's BIG.


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## The bishop

falconrap said:


> I get what you are saying. Keep in mind I've read several dozen threads on two different forums and gotten a lot of information on what works and doesn't work. In the case of my wife, her self-esteem issues drove her to a state of unhappiness and, when combined with me not fully meeting all of her emotional needs, led to her affair. _you can't blame yourself for her actions. Many married couples have had these same problems and don't go outside their marriage to met their needs _
> 
> Once she has gone through withdrawal, if I meet all of her needs and her level of love for me rises back to the romantic level, it won't really matter that the other guy was out there._ It isn't that simple; its not black and white. She is a diffrent person now who developed very intense feelings from another man. He didn't just fill this void; her feelings were just as strong if not stronger when she first feel in love. Meeting her needs doesn't just cause that to go away. It takes a lot of work form both parties to truely heal and trust one another... it takes years. _
> 
> 
> I've seen this with quite a few waywards that only came around when their needs were being met and they starting feeling the level of attachments to their mate that they had when they got married. Just like with an alcoholic, it doesn't matter if they were disgusted with their actions or not...you still have to keep them away from the alcohol or they will become addicted again. _Agreed. You have to baby sit them. It is a lot easier when they are very remorseful and help you trust them _
> 
> In other words, how they felt about what they did is generally irrelevant to recovery. It's the willingness to separate from the addiction and do everything in the power to stay away from it. I've seen examples where some waywards were never truly remorseful, but were willing to go through these plans and they are now very happy. _ Like any addiction they can relapse at anytime... 5 months, 1 year, 10 years, so yes they can be happy but they also can be thinking of someone else at the same time. If a wayward is truely remorseful and puts a lot in healing their marriage and their SO, they have a lot better chance at succeeding_
> 
> Sure, it helps with getting their buy-in on the renewal if they are remorseful and disgusted by what they did, and it can speed the recovery up. But it's not mandatory that they do this, something I have learn from reading about other couples experiences. The critical part is the NC and the willingness of the wayward to do the program. If they buy in and do it, you generally have an excellent chance at the marriage both people always wanted and greatly reduce any risk that they will go outside of the marriage for their needs. After all, if you are meeting all of their emotional needs, and they are romantically in love with you, there is virtually no incentive for them to go outside. _ In a perfect world and marriage yes. But marriage is hard and so is life. Even spouses who are in love and have all their needs met cheat. I can attest to this personally. _
> 
> Besides, my wife is already paying for her affair with her family, whom she as very, very close to. It's killing her that they know and don't approve of what she is doing. So she already sees a rather large consequence for her. If the tables were reversed, I don't have the connection my family that she has, so it wouldn't affect me. But for her, it's BIG.


 _Yes. Yes. This is what I am talking about right here. Real Consequences!! _ 


*I can tell you have faith in your decision and I really do hope you are right and it all works out. And I am not trying to disparage your actions. I just don't want this to happen to you again 5 or 10 years down the road. I also hope you are ready for anything at anytime. *


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## falconrap

You and me both hope it works out. I have faith, and that's all I can go on now. If she chooses to renew with me, I will be very vigilant and do everything I can to make sure there are no relapses. But, as we all know, there are no sure things in life and love. I can only do what he been success for most and hope that we become another success story. I am tempered in this, but hope is all I have some days.

Thank you for your advice and concern. It helps me tremendously when people keep me grounded.


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## falconrap

Looks like tonight is roller coaster night. She was rather depressed comin home tonight. Wasn't very talkative, and started watching a movie, for a little while, that she had associated with the OM. I could tell she was different pretty quickly. It will be interesting to see what she writes, if anything, tonight. It will also be interesting to see how long this lasts.

I need to write all of this into my journal as well. This type of night was expected. I'm surprised it took 3 days.


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## Plan 9 from OS

Good luck. I'll be honest with you, I couldn't handle this the way you are if my wife did the same things yours is doing. I'd nuke the marriage if my wife did not show a true desire to reconcile, be 100% transparent - the whole 9 yards. The wife would also have to be there to comfort ME - not the other way around.


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## falconrap

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Good luck. I'll be honest with you, I couldn't handle this the way you are if my wife did the same things yours is doing. I'd nuke the marriage if my wife did not show a true desire to reconcile, be 100% transparent - the whole 9 yards. The wife would also have to be there to comfort ME - not the other way around.


She's an addict still gettin over the symptoms. Plenty of time for her to feel remorse. She started watching the movie again after putting our daughter to bed, but didn't finish it. Saw she was sobbing. Probably feeling depressed over things again. Remember, I took the "bottle" away from her close to 3 weeks ago. Takes time for an addict to come back around.


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## falconrap

And today she popped up one of those "inspirational" quotes on FB. The pendulum has swung, thought I think she's having a hard time today. Still hasn't emailed anyone. It will be interesting to see if things swing back in my favor again in the next day or two, especially when I get to spend more time with her.

For anyone else that goes through something like this, the ups and downs are expected. Addictions really take a toll on those who go through them.


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## warlock07

You are just going to wait it out, right? You are in a bigger fog than she is. She is not the first person in the world to have depression or MLC.


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## falconrap

warlock07 said:


> You are just going to wait it out, right? You are in a bigger fog than she is. She is not the first person in the world to have depression or MLC.


Um, ok. Considering how many threads I have read on certain sites that have shown how the WS goes through this roller coaster of emotions during withdrawal, I tend to think this is quite normal. Waiting it out is the personal choice of every BS. Some bail immediately...others can wait 6 months to a year. It all depends on one's own time table and their threshold of dealing with the matter. Sorry if I don't conform to the "kick the b_tch to the curb" mentality.

I've already found several instances where she has blocked out positive memories of me. This is all fog on her part. Whether or not she comes out of the fog on her own, or by some action of mine, or never, is unknown by all. Nobody can tell. Different people come out at different times. Some never come out. I'm not in a fog. I'm just the hopeful, optimistic type, though not terribly optimistic about my marriage. I really don't get the condescension by some of you. I really don't. I've seen marriages, far worse than mine, and having gone through far worse circumstances than mine, come back and flourish because the BS stayed the course and did essentially what I am doing. Sorry you disagree, but I've seen far more evidence of success than failure when using the same principles I am now following. If it takes divorce to shake her out, it will happen. But if it goes that far, she may not get a chance to come back.


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## Plan 9 from OS

falconrap said:


> She's an addict still gettin over the symptoms. Plenty of time for her to feel remorse. She started watching the movie again after putting our daughter to bed, but didn't finish it. Saw she was sobbing. Probably feeling depressed over things again. Remember, I took the "bottle" away from her close to 3 weeks ago. Takes time for an addict to come back around.


I'm not going to get into the distinctions between true chemical addiction vs the other types of addictions, but the bottom line is you cannot help an addict if the addict does not want to be helped. Maybe I missed it in this thread, but to this day your wife did not acknowledge that 1) she has an addiction, 2) she realizes that her addiction is hurting those she cares about the most and 3) she truly wants help to stop once and for all. 

You can force a heroin addict to a clinic to detox for 30 days or whatever length of time. But if the underlying root cause for why the addiction occurred in the first place isn't addressed, then there is a good chance the addict will relapse as soon as life "goes wrong". How do you detox an addict if the addict either doesn't acknowledge the problem nor wants any help?


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## falconrap

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I'm not going to get into the distinctions between true chemical addiction vs the other types of addictions, but the bottom line is you cannot help an addict if the addict does not want to be helped. Maybe I missed it in this thread, but to this day your wife did not acknowledge that 1) she has an addiction, 2) she realizes that her addiction is hurting those she cares about the most and 3) she truly wants help to stop once and for all.
> 
> You can force a heroin addict to a clinic to detox for 30 days or whatever length of time. But if the underlying root cause for why the addiction occurred in the first place isn't addressed, then there is a good chance the addict will relapse as soon as life "goes wrong". How do you detox an addict if the addict either doesn't acknowledge the problem nor wants any help?


I can't cure her addiction. But, as with every addiction, it starts with taking the addictive item away. I can only do so much, but the OM he already removed himself from the picture as well. Affairs are typically dopamine based addictions. As the dopamine wears off, the fog will lift. But that's assuming that it is wearing off. Little triggers can push it back up, but, like any addiction, it requires more and more to sustain. If all she can do is get smaller and smaller boosts of the stuff (like watching a movie that reminds her of him) the boost in dopamine will be short lived and depression symptoms follow. She is basically detoxing, but trying to get a little shot in from time to time. Unfortunately for me, all she needs is contact with the OM to boost it back up to where it needs to continue the addiction. I can't control that, but I have done what I can for now to try and eliminate it.

What I have to do now is wait it out and provide her a way out (which is my plan A - my renewal plan). I've already given her little doses of what she can have with me, and it worked when we spent the day together. As the week has gone on, and our time together has been far less, it wears off and she slips back into her fog world. I can't do anything about that right now. My hope is that she will, at some point, accept my plan for renewal, which includes complete NC, including changing her email and cell number. It will also include following the plan in Surviving an Affair, which has 30 proven years of success. If, big if, I can get her to commit to that, I believe we will be successful because she fell in love with me and was very happy during the first 5 years of our marriage. Our first child started the slow decay, followed by a number of stressors in our lives, then the initial contacts with the OM occurred.

I've read extensively on this stuff. Seen many first hand accounts from waywards (about their fog and what it did to them and how they came out of it) and BS's alike and have seen what works. Exposure as needed to try to kill the affair. It worked, but I need the NC stuff implemented to reduce the risk of relapse once she does come down from this (they almost always do, though there are times that they don't - it's impossible to know if my wife will come out or not, but Sunday was a strong indicator that she will).

Hopefully, I've been informative here. I'm only posting on this thread these days as a threaded journal of what's going on. I have my plan in place and I've been getting solid results. But I am well aware that waywards will bounce up and down with the ride getting less and less bumpy over time. Time is the only thing that will get her past this guy so that I can become her focus again. And she will always be at risk of reverting, but the renewal plan I plan to follow will dramatically reduce the chances that she will go out of the marriage again. Nothing is a sure thing in life and relationships, but I have chosen a path that has consistently proven out. I understand the skepticism from some on this site, as I am aware that MMSL and Divorce Busters drives many of the regulars here. But His Needs; Her Needs/Surviving an Affair is getting me results, to the limited amount I can implement them right now.


----------



## Chaparral

Do what works for you, but be ready to adapt to changing circumstances.


----------



## The bishop

chapparal said:


> Do what works for you, but be ready to adapt to changing circumstances.


:iagree: 

I hate to even mention it cause (I am disgusted by it) but at any time (today, tommorrow, whenever) I could contact any of my AP's and start right up again. Even if they have found a new happiness wiht their H's. It isn't what you are doing that got you to this point, it is what the OM isn't doing... contacting her. Anytime, even if she gets out of the fog, if he decides to contact her, she will fall right back into it. 

Just be ready.


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## JCD

I just read this whole thread. I haven't read every single entry but mostly focused on falcon.

So you're waiting. And you're waiting. And you're throwing out these little snippets of 'oh...look how crappy your life will be. Look at how wonderful I am." Why don't you just go all in with the dignity and give her a power point presentation.

The 180 didn't fix things and calls for a definitive time limit for the woman to chit or get off the pot...so you shifted over to something which will preserve the illusion much longer.

Why haven't you filed?

How is she supposed to miss you when you're always at her elbow to give her 'quality time' whenever she wants...but characterized OH SO Manly as "Damn it, I'm the Alpha here and I just HAPPEN to be sitting right here where I can be at your beck and call."

The thing with the grocery store was just sickening. What a good little husband you were, going out to get the right thing before she even had the necessity to berate you.

The rationalizations come thick and constant.

If she smiles at you, it's because she's loving you. If she's not smiling, it's because she's going through withdrawal. If she calls the guy, that's not a worrying sign because he can't call back...at her work...or on a burner phone...or some secret email account. Because the federal government cares SO MUCH about infidelity (I believe ex President Clinton now advises in that department).

You have put off telling your wife your plans for a WEEK now! A conversation which will take 15 minutes and you have put it off for a WEEK! One hundred and sixty eight hours. You couldn't find 15 minutes in 168 HOURS to tell her to **** or get off the pot. Because that would be decisive. That would be forcing an issue you really don't want to force.

You talk a good game, but I don't see any motion here. All the smiles, and not being a troll around you isn't anything but trying to make the best of a bad situation in her eyes.

She doesn't want to go on family trips with you

She doesn't want you to go on family trips with her.

She cries constantly.

She hasn't ONCE brought up the prospect of making things better.

YOU keep telling her how you are just gee golly all ready to make EVERYTHING better with an R...but you still haven't given a deadline of any kind. Not tomorrow. Not next week. Not next month. Absolutely no deadline.

Oh that's right. Because addictions take time to get out of.

She has done NOTHING to encourage you. You are desperately looking for any sign to think she's turning around.

If you define cheating as a mental illness, then yes, she was probably mentally ill. Have you gotten any professional diagnosis? If she's really mad, shouldn't she be seeing someone? Right...she's too senstive mentally to get...treated...by...someone...who is...suppposed to...fix being mentally...sensitive...or something.

Maybe she's coming around. Maybe you are actually fixing things. But I don't think your activities have helped at all.


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## Chaparral

Just a note, the 180 isn't designed to fix things. As with the MAP plan in MMSLP, the 180 can and does drive the wedge deeper between a couple that already has a problem. The 180 is more for preparing to leave when the wayward spouse refuses to let her/his AP go.

OP is making steady progress though there are dips along the way. One size does not fit all situations. 

I have no clue, what might happen, but OP is the one that has to live with his situation.


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## falconrap

This isn't about waiting, per se. I am setting her up, essentially. I am, without being needy or clingy, doing things that show what she could have. I am going to give her my plan for renewal, after giving her a dose of reality on divorce in this state (basically - she's screwed - she won't be able to do any of the things she thought). Then I will give her month to see what she could have, as she continues to slowly wind down from her addiction. If she doesn't agree to the proven renewal plan, I file and give her a little "oh s__t" moment. If I had just filed, she would have gone and probably never come back for other reasons. She has self-esteem issues that need to be resolved. In any case, she will, at the moment she is served, be sitting there thinking about what kind of guy I was, and the prospect of having a divorce that won't give her any of the things she wanted, other the. The freedom to be with an OM that thought of her as nothing more than his plan b, sure thing rebound girl. That will be the moment of truth.

Now, on occasion, WS' have actually come out with just the Plan A in action, but it's a low percentage. I'm hopeful, but very realistic. So far, things I have done have gotten her to be totally different with me than she has in well over a year. So I know there is a chance to get through this, but it takes time.


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## Thinkitthrough

The analogy of the WS as drug addict is a good one. The people here seem hard because what you are trying to do is hard. I have worked with addicts and alcoholics and only those who are committed and hardend and ready to do what they need to, to survive make it (about 1 in 5). You have a plan, be vigilant and be flexible. I hope it works for you, I couldn't do it.


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## falconrap

Thinkitthrough said:


> The analogy of the WS as drug addict is a good one. The people here seem hard because what you are trying to do is hard. I have worked with addicts and alcoholics and only those who are committed and hardend and ready to do what they need to, to survive make it (about 1 in 5). You have a plan, be vigilant and be flexible. I hope it works for you, I couldn't do it.


Exactly. Thanks. Those who cheat become addicted and it's just like dealing with an alcoholic. The risk of them repeating will always be there. It's daunting, but I've overcome many things in life and I am very strong willed. If if wasn't for the kids, I met have given up already, but, on Sunday, I actually saw flashes of the woman I married, as opposed to the addicted fogged out woman I've been dealing with the last year or so. The woman I am dealing with (fog-wise) is not worth this trouble. The woman I married...is. Gettin that person back is going to be tough, but I've seen a lot of success from people that have employed the emotional needs plan from Harley. Getting her to turn around and buy-in is the hard part, and this process isn't short.

In the end, we all have to determine what we are capable and willing to put up with. I haven't reached my limit yet, but I'm not that far off.


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## Plan 9 from OS

falconrap said:


> Exactly. Thanks. Those who cheat become addicted and it's just like dealing with an alcoholic. The risk of them repeating will always be there. It's daunting, but I've overcome many things in life and I am very strong willed. If if wasn't for the kids, I met have given up already, but, on Sunday, I actually saw flashes of the woman I married, as opposed to the addicted fogged out woman I've been dealing with the last year or so. The woman I am dealing with (fog-wise) is not worth this trouble. The woman I married...is. Gettin that person back is going to be tough, but I've seen a lot of success from people that have employed the emotional needs plan from Harley. Getting her to turn around and buy-in is the hard part, and this process isn't short.
> 
> In the end, we all have to determine what we are capable and willing to put up with. I haven't reached my limit yet, but I'm not that far off.


I'm just throwing my opinion out there and I'm not trying to encourage or dissuade you on your path. You seem pretty set on it and nothing will change your mind. Fair enough. But I'm sure you realize that there is a difference between an addiction that is due to a chemical dependency that artificially pumps in endorphins into the body vs an addiction that is due to a habit that releases natural endorphins that are already present in the body. One is clearly different than the other, and I think you are giving your wife too much of a pass on this. IMO, you are treating her like she has a chemical dependency - you even compare it to being an alcoholic. But bear in mind that there is a distinction. Your wife's "addiction" is not harmful and will not kill her if she has to make drastic changes in her life to break the addiction. For an alcoholic or a heroin addict, quitting the chemical dependency is much much more difficult. 

I think of it like this: someone who is chemically addicted to something may want to stop; however, their body will go out of whack due to the cessation of the external chemicals coursing through their bodies and can objectively impair their free will. Your wife, OTOH, is not chemically addicted. Her endorphins are already in her body naturally. She has a lot more free will that will not be impaired from external sources of dopamine. I really hope this works out like you plan, because I think you are setting yourself up to crash and burn. I'm not telling you that your wife isn't addicted because she is to the extent that a gambler is addicted to betting. But she has the free will to make an informed choice in this matter. A heroin addict or an alcoholic cannot always make an informed decision due to the chemical impairment. A gambler or an adulterer can make informed decisions- IMHO.


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## JCD

Short translation from Plan 9:

She is carrying her 'drug' around with her in her head. While she gets a bigger trigger from seeing 'Da Man', her fantasy life can trigger it just fine without him, though perhaps with a bit more effort.

It depends on how much she is living the dream. She's only had 20 years of practice. I had an EA for 2-3 years and I'm still wanting to call her 8 months out. But I'm actually contrite, my wife has been working like hell...sort of on a plan like yours, truth be told, and I'm honest. My wife can't even monitor me.

So if she was the right person, it MIGHT work. She doesn't sound like it. And my wife essentially gave me the 180 for months before, told me to f*** off and die and she wanted a divorce.

I didn't take her seriously until she stood there with tears in her eyes telling me she wanted a divorce and meaning every single word.

So I guess it wasn't like your plan after all. Not totally.


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## falconrap

I know.Thought of him, or associated elements can trigger this at anytime. Different things work for different people and you have to be able to change accordingly. I could see what didn't work with her and what has. How long the desire to renews the affair lasts all depends. There are some that never get over it, and I hope like hell my wife is not one of those. But mos women tend to get over these things in about 6 months, some sooner, some later. Men typically get over this stuff in about half the time. Of course, as I said, there are some that never do. Judging by the fact that she's created a reality to feed this, and that what I have been doing starts to bring the real her back out, I believe that she will, mostly, get over this with time. The laude of an affair, however, will always be an issue for her. That is why I must do the things that I need to, to make her feel the strong romantic love for me again. It's the only way that I can be successful.


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## JCD

Okay. You started this in August.

That means you need to stay strong until February.

Good Luck


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## falconrap

JCD said:


> Okay. You started this in August.
> 
> That means you need to stay strong until February.
> 
> Good Luck


It will likely take that long for any divorce to go through. Hopefully, after seeing what she could have for a couple of months, filing will shock her out of her current path. One way or another, she needs to come down from the high and out of the fog for me to stand a chance at renewing this marriage. I'm wrong enough to go the distance, but I don't want to be in limbo forever and will leave her behind if that starts happening.

God willing, things will work out. If not, I WILL find someone else who will appreciate me, and I will make sure that I don't let that relationship fall to the point of being at risk.


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## JCD

falconrap said:


> It will likely take that long for any divorce to go through. Hopefully, after seeing what she could have for a couple of months, filing will shock her out of her current path. One way or another, she needs to come down from the high and out of the fog for me to stand a chance at renewing this marriage. I'm wrong enough to go the distance, but I don't want to be in limbo forever and will leave her behind if that starts happening.
> 
> God willing, things will work out. If not, I WILL find someone else who will appreciate me, and I will make sure that I don't let that relationship fall to the point of being at risk.


Excuse me, but you say the divorce ruling will take the exact same amount of time.

So...not to be blunt, but SHE KNOWS WHO AND WHAT YOU ARE. She's been there for what, 10 frigging years? She's gotten the memo! Being super nice to her for the next couple of months is going to do the opposite!

It isn't showing her what the hell she has.

She needs to see what the hell she'll lose!

You need to make that pungently clear!

So you can, if you must and against the advice of almost every single person here, do your Alpha Woody Impression but serve her too!

Otherwise the only message she's GETTING is 'he's here if things go bad. See how full of foregiveness (wimpiness) he is?''. 

YOU don't believe it. But does she? Is she acting that way? Hell, you haven't even TOLD HER of the consequences, much less let her smell the ink and paper of the divorce decree. (Smell goes straight to memory. Make her smell the papers. ) 

But SERVE HER!


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## anchorwatch

falconrap said:


> I've already found several instances where she has blocked out positive memories of me. This is all fog on her part. Whether or not she comes out of the fog on her own, or by some action of mine, or never, is unknown by all. Nobody can tell. Different people come out at different times. Some never come out. I'm not in a fog. I'm just the hopeful, optimistic type, though not terribly optimistic about my marriage.


She blocked you out, during the last four years, as she carried on the her EA. The EA with the OM gave her emotional imprints that made new memories. These new memories replaced the ones of you. Generally, women can only be emotionally committed to one person at a time. You were just another piece unused furniture in the room or a convenient inconvenience.

Falcon, when do you plan on giving her the marriage or divorce demand?


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## JCD

tdwal said:


> Im sorry what you have put yourself through, but the reason it is taking her so long to get out of the fog is your enabling it. You have not given her ANY consequences and she has to see the worst to wake her up. You have read everything you can, but reading is not action. Take action, file and give her the consequences. You will find out right away what she is going to do and you won't be in limbo.


He doesn't file because he doesn't want to hear the answer he suspects she'll give.


Edited to add: Getting that answer will be painful. But it's her answer RIGHT NOW.

As the reality comes swooping down on her, the answer might change. And it might not. 

You can't make someone want you. You need to understand that. There is no 'love language' or grocery item which will change a heart.

It sucks but it's true.

I swear I'm going to tell my son to avoid marriage.


----------



## Chaparral

JCD said:


> He doesn't file because he doesn't want to hear the answer he suspects she'll give.
> 
> 
> Edited to add: Getting that answer will be painful. But it's her answer RIGHT NOW.
> 
> As the reality comes swooping down on her, the answer might change. And it might not.
> 
> You can't make someone want you. You need to understand that. There is no 'love language' or grocery item which will change a heart.
> 
> It sucks but it's true.
> 
> I swear I'm going to tell my son to avoid marriage.


He is doing this because he is trying to save his family. Thats all he needs. A lot of affairs these days are possible because of technology. People reconnecting with old flames and things getiing out of hand. This doesn't mean a person is apt to cheat again if they get over this one. Many people out there wonder what would have happened if they had stayed with another boyfriend/girlfriend. Real life has ups and downs, thinking of what might have been is just a fairy tale like she found out with this guy who no doubt wanted a fling.


----------



## JCD

chapparal said:


> He is doing this because he is trying to save his family. Thats all he needs. A lot of affairs these days are possible because of technology. People reconnecting with old flames and things getiing out of hand. This doesn't mean a person is apt to cheat again if they get over this one. Many people out there wonder what would have happened if they had stayed with another boyfriend/girlfriend. Real life has ups and downs, thinking of what might have been is just a fairy tale like she found out with this guy who no doubt wanted a fling.


I am trying very hard not to be sarcastic in response. Of course he's doing it for that reason. He's been PERFECTLY CLEAR on the issue.

But it's like my kids hitting lemons on a cutting board with a hammer trying to make lemonade. They can do that all day but when it's all said and done, it's a damned inefficient (if almost impossible) way to do it.


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## JCD

It's sort of worse then that. There is nothing contradictory between him doing his semi Alpha 180 while whispering her love language in her ear AND filing so she sees that she has an expiration date on her 'head up her butt' status.

BOTH are possible.


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## falconrap

As I have repeatedly stated, my timeline is: give her my renewal plan this weekend (includes telling her what will happen in divorce), give her until the end of October to break through the fog on her on. I will simply be me the whole time and show that I am someone worth being around. After that, I file. Don't know what the heck some of you are babbling on about. I have a plan and stick to it. If she doesn't come around (odds are against it, but it does happen) then the proceedings start. Plain and simple.

The hammer will fall and reality will really set in for her. As I have stated, I could move on without an issue because of the betrayal I felt. But saving this marriage will be worth it if it's far better than before.


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## JCD

Keep us posted.


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## JCD

tdwal said:


> Ok I will be looking on Monday to find out why you didn't follow through.


Well he was tired last week. He might have a rough weekend this week too.


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## anchorwatch

Falcon, you have your time line set for your ultimatum. If you feel more comfortable giving her a few weeks, I don't think it's going to change the out come. I won't give you sarcasm as I see it gives no purpose at this point. You've stated more than once you're going to do it and you won't live in limbo more than a few weeks longer. You're there on the ground and you have to live with what actions you took, not any of us. You seem to know what her answer will be. The percentages aren't good. Just stick to your demands and follow through so the clock starts ticking. Good luck tomorrow night.


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## falconrap

JCD said:


> Well he was tired last week. He might have a rough weekend this week too.


Oh, I'm sorry, perhaps holding this discussion at 11pm on a day that you've already spent taking the kids to an attraction, and then dealing with them mostly yourself is clearly conducive to having a conversation that important.:scratchhead:

I have to hold this conversation when I am calm and relaxed and not tired. If I say something stupid or I'm too tired to talk straight, I'm going to end up doing something that will hurt my effort not help it.

When I plan B her, I want her to be thinking of what a good husband I have been despite all of this crap she has put me through. If not, the plan is nothing more than the preliminary to plan D and nothing more, because the relationship will likely just die. I have a methodical plan and I'm working it.


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## falconrap

anchorwatch said:


> Falcon, you have your time line set for your ultimatum. If you feel more comfortable giving her a few weeks, I don't think it's going to change the out come. I won't give you sarcasm as I see it gives no purpose at this point. You've stated more than once you're going to do it and you won't live in limbo more than a few weeks longer. Your there on the ground and you have to live with what actions you took, not any of us. You seem to know what her answer will be. The percentages aren't good. Just stick to your demands and follow through so the clock starts ticking. Good luck tomorrow night.


Thanks. For me this is more about setting the stage. Since the affair has been effectively ended, I have the luxury of doing Plan A for a few weeks to remind her that there is another option, especially if she is in the "I can't go back now because of what I did" mindset. Hard to tell if she is or not, though there are signs in her emails that she is starting to regret what she did, but not enough to break through yet. This timeline is good for me. Gives her time, just in case she breaks out before plan B, but doesn't leave me hanging for too long.


----------



## JCD

Okay. First a point which you seem to be ignoring.




falconrap said:


> When I plan B her, I want her to be thinking of what a good husband I have been despite all of this crap she has put me through. If not, the plan is nothing more than the preliminary to plan D and nothing more, because the relationship will likely just die. I have a methodical plan and I'm working it.


Oh...so up til now in your relationship, you've been a *bad husband?*

No? Are you being significantly different from before this time? If so, how?

A phrase which rings out to me is your wife saying you aren't 'outdoorsy' enough. That seems to me to be quiet Clint Eastwood type, not Jeeves the Butler. But I don't know what you are doing to be a 'good husband'.

She knows who you are and she isn't buying. So I don't see more of the same as changing anything.

But you are the feet on the ground. Godspeed.



> Oh, I'm sorry, perhaps holding this discussion at 11pm on a day that you've already spent taking the kids to an attraction, and then dealing with them mostly yourself is clearly conducive to having a conversation that important.:scratchhead: *(Which is why it took a whole week to try and do it again :scratchhead: )*
> 
> I have to hold this conversation when I am calm and relaxed and not tired. If I say something stupid or I'm too tired to talk straight, I'm going to end up doing something that will hurt my effort not help it.


Well, it sounds like you want to stage this thing, with the kids away, you dressed in your finest, the appeals to reason, heartfelt looks. Maybe hoping for her to break down in tears, family hugs, oaths of devotion as she finally gets it.

I know I'm hoping for that for you.

Might I suggest a different course of action (without any sarcasm)? If you think you might have trouble being calm and collected, why not write everything up in a single page of paper and hand it to her just before you take the kids out on an extended trip. What you want. What it will take to stay. Exactly when the divorce paperwork will be served. How you will tell her folks when you will serve it.

This gives her time to digest things. There won't be any drama, you get to proof read and correct it so you get it EXACTLY RIGHT (you might want to find an editor so they can proof read it. That way what you think is apparent is actually put down)

Writing a document that important will take some time but not forever. You avoid being tired. You avoid emotions getting in the way. And she has a hard copy to reflect upon.


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## alte Dame

Hi falcon,

I was pointed to your thread because of its similarity of situation to someone I know. I hope you don't mind me jumping in with a question (I've caught up on your posts):

Is your wife being treated for clinical or postpartum depression?


----------



## falconrap

alte Dame said:


> Hi falcon,
> 
> I was pointed to your thread because of its similarity of situation to someone I know. I hope you don't mind me jumping in with a question (I've caught up on your posts):
> 
> Is your wife being treated for clinical or postpartum depression?


No. Not at this time. She's had self-esteem issues the whole time I have known her and now that I know some more, I'm beginning to believe this is a lot more about her than the state of our marriage.

She needs treatment, though, and she did mention in an email to her enabler that she may do this for herself, so we'll see.


----------



## falconrap

JCD said:


> Okay. First a point which you seem to be ignoring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh...so up til now in your relationship, you've been a *bad husband?*
> 
> No? Are you being significantly different from before this time? If so, how?
> 
> A phrase which rings out to me is your wife saying you aren't 'outdoorsy' enough. That seems to me to be quiet Clint Eastwood type, not Jeeves the Butler. But I don't know what you are doing to be a 'good husband'.
> 
> She knows who you are and she isn't buying. So I don't see more of the same as changing anything.
> 
> But you are the feet on the ground. Godspeed.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it sounds like you want to stage this thing, with the kids away, you dressed in your finest, the appeals to reason, heartfelt looks. Maybe hoping for her to break down in tears, family hugs, oaths of devotion as she finally gets it.
> 
> I know I'm hoping for that for you.
> 
> Might I suggest a different course of action (without any sarcasm)? If you think you might have trouble being calm and collected, why not write everything up in a single page of paper and hand it to her just before you take the kids out on an extended trip. What you want. What it will take to stay. Exactly when the divorce paperwork will be served. How you will tell her folks when you will serve it.
> 
> This gives her time to digest things. There won't be any drama, you get to proof read and correct it so you get it EXACTLY RIGHT (you might want to find an editor so they can proof read it. That way what you think is apparent is actually put down)
> 
> Writing a document that important will take some time but not forever. You avoid being tired. You avoid emotions getting in the way. And she has a hard copy to reflect upon.


Thank you for this suggestion. I had thought about this, because I am a far better writer (sans virtual keyboards - suckage!).

Right now, however, I am really starting to wonder if I want to save this marriage. Let me explain. Our daughter likes to occasionally come into the bedroom and sleep in our bed. Of course, she's been sleeping on the couch since exposure. My little girl woke up early and asked why mommy wasn't in there and where she was. I told her downstairs. Latter, my son came in and asked the same. He's been trying to get all of us to go out as a family on numerous occasions.

So, yesterday he wanted us to all go to a restaurant that serves fresh food that fits her diet, that they like to go to. He begged her to go there, but then she said she wanted something else and that they could have the golden arches. He then thought we would all eat there. When I explained we couldn't do that and I would be bringing it back, he had a fit. He ended up going outside and sitting in the vehicle to keep me from going. He was very upset and crying some. She was inside watching him do this and laughing about it. If this was an isolated instance, I might find it funny too, but I know why he was doing this and what he was trying to do. He desperately wants us to go out as a family, and she won't do it. I could tell she really didn't care.

Personally, I considered that moment to be a love buster, and I don't have a lot of love left. At this point I really don't know anymore if I want to save this. I would never marry the woman she is right now. She reverts to her old self at times, but then gets after all of us for every little minor thing. The more time I am around her the more it lessens, but it is becoming very aggravating to deal with. I know the alien pod people have control, but it's becoming to much to watch such utter selfishness come out of her. She was never selfish like this before the kids.

I don't know. I have the plan typed up and printed out and ready to just give to her. My love is fading fast. Once it's gone, I fear I will go into me mode and forsake the family to get away from her, but I know I need to stay strong for the kids.

As to what I have done...I am lifting weights and I'm down 18 pounds (sitting at 192 now), I take the kids out every weekend and sometimes during the week. I'm just getting up and doing things like cleaning, or fixing things, and finishing projects long overdue. I had been outside a lot, but a little less this past week due to the fact that I seem to be the one that has to sit down with my son to do the rather large amount of homework he has to do everyday.

I will say this, I walked out of my bedroom to hear what was going on downstairs, minus shirt, and she was grabbing some stuff in my son's room and looked up and saw me. I did notice she paused for a second and had some wide eyes (her's are noticeable). Guess she noticed my weight loss.

I think I may do the written thing tomorrow. Depends on whether or not I still feel like putting energy in to save this thing (yesterday really upset me, big time).


----------



## alte Dame

You sound very rational, but your wife is anything but. You're hoping that she will snap out of whatever she's suffering from and start being rational, but it doesn't look like that's happening. Maybe she's depressed; maybe she's having the fabled MLC; perhaps she's in a longstanding 'fog.' No matter what, she's dysfunctional & not treating you with the respect owed a loyal husband.

I think you can be as patient as you want, but her lack of respect will wear you down. You sound like you're already feeling very differently. That's the result of prolonged exposure to her behavior - you no longer care as much.

Whatever is going on with her, it sounds to me like she needs treatment & you can't force her to seek it. I wish you luck going forward. You sound like an honorable man who deserves more.


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## falconrap

alte Dame said:


> You sound very rational, but your wife is anything but. You're hoping that she will snap out of whatever she's suffering from and start being rational, but it doesn't look like that's happening. Maybe she's depressed; maybe she's having the fabled MLC; perhaps she's in a longstanding 'fog.' No matter what, she's dysfunctional & not treating you with the respect owed a loyal husband.
> 
> I think you can be as patient as you want, but her lack of respect will wear you down. You sound like you're already feeling very differently. That's the result of prolonged exposure to her behavior - you no longer care as much.
> 
> Whatever is going on with her, it sounds to me like she needs treatment & you can't force her to seek it. I wish you luck going forward. You sound like an honorable man who deserves more.


Thanks. I am beginning to think that her getting treatment is the only hope there is. At this point I'm starting to think that no plan I do will get her to respond and snap out. I need to see if I can nudge her into the treatment that she has admitted she may do for the purpose of "proving us wrong" and maybe get her the help she needs.

The emotions I have gone through in the last 24 hours almost remind me of the week after DDay. Not quite that bad, but not far off. At least I'm not feeling depressed now. It just feels like k am fighting a useless fight right now.


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## WyshIknew

falconrap said:


> Thanks. I am beginning to think that her getting treatment is the only hope there is. At this point I'm starting to think that no plan I do will get her to respond and snap out. I need to see if I can nudge her into the treatment that she has admitted she may do for the purpose of "proving us wrong" and maybe get her the help she needs.
> 
> The emotions I have gone through in the last 24 hours almost remind me of the week after DDay. Not quite that bad, but not far off. At least I'm not feeling depressed now. It just feels like k am fighting a useless fight right now.


Not posted on your thread before but have followed with hope for you.
I think we have a similar work background, you are a test engineer I believe, I assume that is in electronics.
You seem to be dealing with this in a similar way that I might. A rational way, almost like tracing a fault on a piece of equipment.

I don't want this to sound like a 'told you so' post but a lot of other people have told you that they do not feel that your way would work.
If your wife does go for the treatment, see what affect it has and if it is positive then good, progress from there.

If not then it may be time to start listening to the very experienced posters on here and follow their advice.


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## GetTough

falconrap said:


> Thanks. I am beginning to think that her getting treatment is the only hope there is. At this point I'm starting to think that no plan I do will get her to respond and snap out. I need to see if I can nudge her into the treatment that she has admitted she may do for the purpose of "proving us wrong" and maybe get her the help she needs.
> 
> The emotions I have gone through in the last 24 hours almost remind me of the week after DDay. Not quite that bad, but not far off. At least I'm not feeling depressed now. It just feels like k am fighting a useless fight right now.


You cannot change her (directly), or make her want you back. You can only work on yourself. You become a man who is desirable to her again by (1) letting her go, stop trying to change her or force her back, this is attractive because it shows you are strong and believe you can have your pick of women, and (2) fixing the reasons she left you

Basically you need to (1) give her the gift of missing you (2) forget her and improve yourself. That is your best chance. Anything you do to try to manipulate the situation works against you. There are many men on here who have the experience and benefit of hindsight. They have gone through this and given it MUCH thought. I know how hard this is to put into practice, but it is STILL your best chance.


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## Plan 9 from OS

falconrap said:


> Thanks. I am beginning to think that her getting treatment is the only hope there is. At this point I'm starting to think that no plan I do will get her to respond and snap out. I need to see if I can nudge her into the treatment that she has admitted she may do for the purpose of "proving us wrong" and maybe get her the help she needs.
> 
> The emotions I have gone through in the last 24 hours almost remind me of the week after DDay. Not quite that bad, but not far off. At least I'm not feeling depressed now. It just feels like k am fighting a useless fight right now.


Falcon, I'm sorry this is happening to you. I'm actually a little disappointed that you made such a significant change in attitude just one or 2 days after our exchange in this thread. I was hoping that you could continue to make progress with your plan. 

Please don't feel insulted, but IMHO, you have used the idea of addiction as a crutch to rationalize away the behavior of your wife in this EA. Sure, she may have a legitimate addiction to the OM. However, her addiction is far from insurmountable that she can't turn it off if it meant the difference between losing you and the kids or saving her family. I think you seized on this idea of her having an addiction that has taken her free will away from her and she "has no choice" in this situation. But in reality, she made her choice and is rejecting you and your family. I don't think you have accepted the fact that you were rejected and have pounced on the first thing that could protect your psyche. You have to come to terms with the fact that she rejected you and this "addiction" that she has is overblown. She is in a fog - sure - but it's of her own free will that she continues on like this. I'm sorry, but I think you know what needs to be done. No more Mr. Nice Guy...it's time...


----------



## GetTough

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Falcon, I'm sorry this is happening to you. I'm actually a little disappointed that you made such a significant change in attitude just one or 2 days after our exchange in this thread. I was hoping that you could continue to make progress with your plan.
> 
> Please don't feel insulted, but IMHO, you have used the idea of addiction as a crutch to rationalize away the behavior of your wife in this EA. Sure, she may have a legitimate addiction to the OM. However, her addiction is far from insurmountable that she can't turn it off if it meant the difference between losing you and the kids or saving her family. I think you seized on this idea of her having an addiction that has taken her free will away from her and she "has no choice" in this situation. But in reality, she made her choice and is rejecting you and your family. I don't think you have accepted the fact that you were rejected and have pounced on the first thing that could protect your psyche. You have to come to terms with the fact that she rejected you and this "addiction" that she has is overblown. She is in a fog - sure - but it's of her own free will that she continues on like this. I'm sorry, but I think you know what needs to be done. No more Mr. Nice Guy...it's time...


I think this is insightful. Yes I did similar too, I thought my ex would snap out of it. Sure, she comes down to earth with a bump when she realized all that divorce with kids entails, but things are never the same. A new reality emerges. The nightmare gradually dissipates and merges with the future. This is true. She may be high on OM. But she got there because she was already done with OP.


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## Plan 9 from OS

Falcon, are you still out there? Any update on how things are going?


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## falconrap

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Falcon, are you still out there? Any update on how things are going?


On Tuesday, thanks to my tablet accidentally bringing the To window back up in an email I was writing, I somehow managed to accidentally add my wife's email address to the To box on an email meant only for her dad (God really does work in mysterious ways). It wasn't anything really bad, just my thoughts on some questions he asked. In any case, it sparked a long conversation about us, and I gave her my renewal plan in generalities, as well as discussing what would happen if she divorced me (i.e. Money spent, time wasted on extensive paperwork, how the debts and assets would be split 50/50, and how the kids start time-sharing at 50/50, but that I would likely end up with primary time-sharing, and that would require child support from her based on her earnings potential - she could quit now and it would still be based on her current pay - oh...the things that waywards don't really think about).

I basically laid out how horrible divorce would be and now my plan would give her a great marriage, she would be happy, and I would forgive her if she committed to the plan. She didn't say no at all, just listened. I made sure she realized just how painful infidelity is to the BS, and now much pain she caused, but I have shown her that I am functioning normally now. I reminded her of a bunch of memories she still doesn't remember, and made sure she understood that I knew she was blocking things out (yes...this all useless now, but this is just seed planting for those moments that the sane person peaks back out).

The part I most enjoyed and hated was informing her how the OM was probably having marriage issues way back in 2008 and had started fishing for the future, and that, in most cases, when a guy has a sure thing on the line, but one with some baggage (she's married in this case) and starts backing off, as he did before exposure, it usually means he's playing the field and has someone else he's got on the hook that is less trouble. More seed planting, but a powerful one to really start putting a bad face on the OM (after all, he bailed when the things got heated, and hasn't responded since -something that has to be eating at her and will start lowering her love for him).

At the end of our conversation I reiterated my plan, and what it could mean for her (I made sure to tell her that, if she felt trapped on her current path, that she wasn't and that this plan would give her what she truly wants), I then asked her point blank..."Why can't you be happy with me?" Her response? Dumbfounded look. She just sat there looking straight at me and couldn't think of anything. I asked her again and got the same non-answer. She had earlier failed to come up with anything that caused her to be unhappy with me, just that she was unhappy because she wasn't with him (before I explained what guys tend to do). In other words, she can't really think of anything I have done, or not, nor any reason why being happy with me can't happen. Probably had the rationalization hamster spinning at warp speed!

At this juncture I am now pretty convinced that, while I probably wasn't helping things and could use some improvement in meeting EN's, it appears to all be related to the stress she was under at the time and the out of the blue contact with OM. At this point, I believe she is salvageable (something I was starting to believe she wasn't before), but will need time to fully withdraw. So I am on plan A for a while until I am ready to move to plan B, or she snaps out, which ever comes first.

Killing the EA was critical. She is clearly changing, but still clinging to the EA. That feeling is dying, I can tell. Now I need to see if the guilt starts taking over at some point. If she starts feeling remorse at some point in the next few weeks, I'll know my odds are damn good because our marriage really wasn't that bad, just a lot of stress at one time and her self-esteem issues. I am pretty much feeling un-impacted by the current situation, so I can deal with things as they are for now. If that changes, plan B will hit. Until then I have my time benchmarks and will go from there.


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## WyshIknew

Any news on the treatment you mentioned?


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## falconrap

She has stated that she plans to go to seek help to "prove everyone wrong," but hasn't done that yet. If she comes out and chooses to work with me, then I will ask her to go to at least one session with a professional in mental health to see what they say. Right now...I'm in kick back and relax mode. I'll see if she comes out of the fog on her own, or requires plan B. Based on how she was with my comments and how she has been since, I believe she will come around, but it all depends on when it really hits her. We are in the conflict stage (where she will, at times, argue about my help...other times she just accepts it and says thanks), so progression is pretty much on schedule for the run of the mill WW. I hope I can keep it going down this path.

Ultimately, she will need to work on the self-esteem issue to make sure she doesn't will into this again.


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## falconrap

Just found put the name of the OM's ex or current wife, including a phone number. I found their marriage record in the Westmoreland County,PA records. They have a slot listed for "How and When Marriage was Disolved" and there are no dates for that in this record. A random search of other marriage records showed that these usually have the dissolution date listed, even for prior marriages. So...at this point, I believe I just hit the lottery and found out the guy is actually still married, and will be finding some time to make a phone call to what now appears to be the OM's BW. My wife was 100% under the notion that he was divorced. If that turns out to not be the case, and he since he hasn't been in contact with her for a while (from what I have seen), this changes the dynamics of my situation big time.

Getting the wife thrown under the bus by this POS may be what is required to snap her out of this mess. I just hope I am right, although I hate to have to let some lady know her husband is a POS. She deserves to know along with my WW.


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## tom67

falconrap said:


> Just found put the name of the OM's ex or current wife, including a phone number. I found their marriage record in the Westmoreland County,PA records. They have a slot listed for "How and When Marriage was Disolved" and there are no dates for that in this record. A random search of other marriage records showed that these usually have the dissolution date listed, even for prior marriages. So...at this point, I believe I just hit the lottery and found out the guy is actually still married, and will be finding some time to make a phone call to what now appears to be the OM's BW. My wife was 100% under the notion that he was divorced. If that turns out to not be the case, and he since he hasn't been in contact with her for a while (from what I have seen), this changes the dynamics of my situation big time.
> 
> Getting the wife thrown under the bus by this POS may be what is required to snap her out of this mess. I just hope I am right, although I hate to have to let some lady know her husband is a POS. She deserves to know along with my WW.


Good work give her a call.


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## anchorwatch

Falcon, there may be reasons that you can't find those records. It's doesn't mean they haven't divorced. The records may have not been updated (civil service isn't always the fastest). They may have filed in another county or state and the records don't reflect that. Don't jump the gun.


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## anchorwatch

What searches have you done. Did you do a paid subscription record and people search?


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## falconrap

Not jumping the gun yet. I did a search through PeopleFinders.com and bought her basic record. I can get his full background record through them. I went to the Westmoreland County records search and looked through the civil court records and the marriage records. The only recorded the current marriage record that doesn't show any date for divorce (this divorce reportedly occurred last year around the Aug Sep time frame...so that's an awfully long time for the record to go without being updated.

Remember, this guy was backing off all year and all they did at the gas station was hug and kiss. No sealing of the deal, which really struck me as odd, considering she was a sure thing for him. I've suspected there was someone else involved with him, but always wondered if he may have been lying about his divorce. I'm not positive he is still married, but I'm beginning to highly suspect that he is. Fits the pattern, as he may have been backing off because she was suspicious, or he was having second thoughts about all of this.

Or, they could be divorced and the records don't show it anywhere that I can see. These records do show divorces filed in other counties, though. So who knows?

if he is still married, this could lead to a massive love busting event for my WW, and may shock her out of the fog, or at least get her on track to come out. Certainly nothing certain for us either way, but this is likely to give me a much better chance, especially since I have seen that, even in January, she thought our marriage was good, but that she was just unhappy (it's her weight making her such). So we'll see.


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## Eli-Zor

falconrap said:


> Just found put the name of the OM's ex or current wife, including a phone number. I found their marriage record in the Westmoreland County,PA records. They have a slot listed for "How and When Marriage was Disolved" and there are no dates for that in this record. A random search of other marriage records showed that these usually have the dissolution date listed, even for prior marriages. So...at this point, I believe I just hit the lottery and found out the guy is actually still married, and will be finding some time to make a phone call to what now appears to be the OM's BW. My wife was 100% under the notion that he was divorced. If that turns out to not be the case, and he since he hasn't been in contact with her for a while (from what I have seen), this changes the dynamics of my situation big time.
> 
> Getting the wife thrown under the bus by this POS may be what is required to snap her out of this mess. I just hope I am right, although I hate to have to let some lady know her husband is a POS. She deserves to know along with my WW.



Good for you , carry on digging. Waywards hate the truth especially when they find they are lied to the so called "love of their lives". Affairees lie as much to each other as they do to their own spouses


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## anchorwatch

If you found that he is still married, your WW would view him negatively. But that doesn't mean she would get back any feelings for you. Why hasn't her family or friends gathered this information. Aren't they all from the same town?


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## falconrap

I'm aware that she may not get back the feelings for me, but there have been signs she still has something left for me, just nowhere near enough to override her current infatuation/addiction.

The OM is in PA. The WW's told are in WV. The guy went to her HS, but he doesn't live in the area.

Now, I've seeded her with a lot of doubts. I expect if this turns out to be true, that once she gets the news she'll really take it hard and probably hate the guy, especially since he dumped her 20 years ago. After that, it's all up to me to win her back. This greatly increase the odds of that happening. If she has anything for me, at all, I believe I can turn this around, but only if she is willing, and this might change that dynamic (keyword...might).


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## anchorwatch

Pulling for you, Falcon, continue the search. Good hunting.


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## falconrap

Ugh. Just manages to find the civil court filing. It was filed in 2005 with the divorce being granted last year. What a mess that must have been.

Well...back to what I was doing.


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## iheartlife

falconrap said:


> Ugh. Just manages to find the civil court filing. It was filed in 2005 with the divorce being granted last year. What a mess that must have been.
> 
> Well...back to what I was doing.


OMG...a six year divorce. Nice.

On the other hand, wonder what interesting things his wife has to say about him?


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## Kasler

Uh Falcon, from my view point it seems your trying to convince your wife to 'settle' for you? And you're bringing down OM so its more likely she choose that?

This is acceptable to you? 

"Since you can't have OM, be with me."


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## falconrap

I'm almost curious to find out. For now I'll just keep doing what I've been doing. If it ever becomes necessary, I might just mention this to the WW (as in if I found he had told her a different account of the divorce proceedings). Otherwise, I'll leave well enough alone for now.


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## falconrap

Kasler said:


> Uh Falcon, from my view point it seems your trying to convince your wife to 'settle' for you? And you're bringing down OM so its more likely she choose that?
> 
> This is acceptable to you?
> 
> "Since you can't have OM, be with me."


This is only like the nth time a TAM person has made this comment to me. The real reason my wife ran off onto this tangent is because she wasn't completely happy due to her weight and the way she feels about herself. This has nothing to do with me or the OM. She simply fell for the "he must be the one" bull that someone in her state is subject to. Even now, with all the crap going on, we get along great until her taker pops up and asks WTH and she tries to act all mean and annoyed at some little petty contrivance. We married for a reason. She has been in no hurry to file and get out of the marriage for a reason. She only thinks she wants the other guy more right now.

To recap my thread, this is a guy who dumped her 20 years ago. They had a brief email exchange back in the summer of 2008 when she was under a lot of stress and upset at her inability to lose the weight that she gained with my son. She gained more with our daughter, and continues, 3+ years later, to remove the weight. Then he made an FB post, she learned he divorced, and then at some point she started thinking this guy was her cure for unhappiness. He isn't. She needs professional help to deal with her self-esteem issues, but right now I am focusing on getting her to a more compliant state and will push for her to get the counseling she needs.

The fact is I was her number 1. She let her unhappiness with her weight become an issue and the affair fog allowed her to make a new reality in her mind that she settled for me, that we were never compatible, and that this guy was "the one" and always was. This is ALL fog talk. The problem I face is getting her out of the fog. I have seen signs of her coming out more and more and my plan A has been producing noticeable results. Worst case, I will set up plan B such that she will miss me if she leaves. Best case, since I know divorce won't be possible for us for probably a year or more, she may come out of it before plan B is needed.

Every time I here this line of questioning, I just want to dump this board. Things that the WS says like this are all fog at this point. I know for a fact we were very compatible (it's why we married) and that she did NOT settle for me.

So...in other words...I value my marriage and kids and will fight to get her to remember why she wanted me in the first place, over some guy that dumped her a$$ then turned around 20 years later and tried to steal her from her husband. Getting her out of the fog and over her addiction is what will do this. The question isn't about whether she would realize that again if she gets out of the fog and over the addiction...it's IF she will come out of the fog and the addiction. I'm seeing the slow build-up of her coming out and expect to see more of it over the holidays. We'll see.


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## falconrap

I've seen a number of stories on various boards, including This_Is_Me's, and it lets me know that there is hope. I can see in our daily activities that she is becoming more and more comfortable being with me. Hopefully the holidays will drive the point home at the right point of time in her withdrawal. I knew, once I set out on this path, that I would be in for a 1 to 2 year project. I am used to this and I am not a quitter. I usually end up getting these things done (had a 3 year push for capital to get a new piece of test equipment that I managed to pull in after end of 2010 - had a lot of idiots going against me and plenty of people telling me to give up - I ignored them and won). The reality is, this isn't for everyone, and you only have hope if you can start to re-kindle the flame with you WS. You have to win them back and a lot of TAM folks are of the "screw that!" mindset.

My philosophy? Nothing in life worth having is easy to get.

If I win her back and do the MB program, I know I will not have only beaten that POSOM, but I will end up with a great marriage for the rest of my life. If I lose...I will only have lost a year or two of my life trying to avoid what would have happened no matter what. This is a risk, as any investment in money or life is. For me, the payoff is worth the effort. For others, it may not be. I just wish the "others" would understand and just move on. I would rather have advice from the tenacious go getters, willing to crawl through broken glass to succeed, than from those who just throw up the white flag.


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## anchorwatch

Falcon, it's not the POSOM you have to defeat or your WW's heart to win. It's your WW that has to confront her selfishness and self esteem issues.

You're right, what you're doing is not for everyone and can only be tried in a few situations. Only a certain type of person would attempt this. That person would have to balance their efforts and be prepared for the possibility that they may fail. That's why you'll get a majority of cut and run or ultimatum post. You're there on the ground, not anonymous posters on the web. Take or discard any advice you want, just read them and decide. Wishing you well. Keep at it.


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## alte Dame

tdwal said:


> Hang in there. You certainly have tenacity. I pray that you can pull her out, I really do. Your a good man for trying so hard.


I've mostly lurked here, but have to say that I've really come to appreciate and like your tenacity as well.

There's no question that some women go through some very difficult, very amorphous feelings of dissatisfaction after childbirth and when children are very young. Husbands can be targets of the dissatisfaction & usually are deer caught in the headlights when this happens. Your almost clinical approach to her behavior is a contrast and is interesting to me. I hope it works.


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## falconrap

anchorwatch said:


> Falcon, it's not the POSOM you have to defeat or your WW's heart to win. It's your WW that has to confront her selfishness and self esteem issues.
> 
> You're right, what you're doing is not for everyone and can only be tried in a few situations. Only a certain type of person would attempt this. That person would have to balance their efforts and be prepared for the possibility that they may fail. That's why you'll get a majority of cut and run or ultimatum post. You're there on the ground, not anonymous posters on the web. Take or discard any advice you want, just read them and decide. Wishing you well. Keep at it.


I get where you are coming from. I know I am working to win my WW's heart back and need to defeat her selfishness and self-esteem issues in the process, but for me, the incentive to not let the POSOM win is part of my motivation - just a driver for me if you will. The main motivation is because I can see the reward if I win her back and get her to get past her issues. I can see myself protecting my children and having the marriage both of us always wanted. I am willing to put in the work and effort to get there, and I am seeing daily baby steps towards that result. As long as progress continues and the light at the end of the tunnel is still there, I will do what successful people do, push forward and use my willpower to shape our lives. I may not succeed, but, in the end, nobody will be able to claim I didn't give it 100%.

Thanks for all of your encouragement and realistic advice. I hope I am one of the ones that succeed, and not one of the ones that fail.


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## anchorwatch

Nothing is worthwhile unless you work for it. Stay the course.


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## falconrap

alte Dame said:


> I've mostly lurked here, but have to say that I've really come to appreciate and like your tenacity as well.
> 
> There's no question that some women go through some very difficult, very amorphous feelings of dissatisfaction after childbirth and when children are very young. Husbands can be targets of the dissatisfaction & usually are deer caught in the headlights when this happens. Your almost clinical approach to her behavior is a contrast and is interesting to me. I hope it works.


Thanks. Being an engineer, when something goes wrong, you can't fix it by flailing about trying any solution people come up with (I actually started this way 2 months back and it actually set me back). You have to find the root cause of the problem and engineer a solution. People problems are far more complex, but there is usually one key thing that is the root cause. Her self-esteem issues with her weight is the root. Right now, I am just trying to win her back as much as I can until I can get her to get the help she needs for her personal issues. If she doesn't solve that problem, even if I win her back initially, my efforts will ultimately fail.

I see the changes. They are slowly happening, but happening none the less. She wouldn't even go anywhere with me until last Wednesday. Now we went out with the kids the last two nights. Bit by bit...


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## falconrap

Oh goody. The wife is snooping. Not sure what she expects to find. Maybe she'll find this thread (hi hon!!! Still trying to save our marriage!! ILY!!).

I've seen a lot more of her taker the last couple of days. She gets angry at us for any little perceived slight. Not sue if she found something to make her mad, but the only thing she could find is me trying to save our marriage.


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## walkonmars

I'm pulling for you. Your resolve is clear, persistent and consistent. I hope it works out for you so that in a few years your wife will ache with the knowledge of your love for her and your family. Stay strong.


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## alte Dame

walkonmars said:


> I'm pulling for you. Your resolve is clear, persistent and consistent. I hope it works out for you so that in a few years your wife will ache with the knowledge of your love for her and your family. Stay strong.


My thoughts as well.


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## falconrap

tdwal said:


> Me too, it would do her good to read your posts. There is nothing negative in any of them, but she would probably not like a lot of us posters.


Yeah, I figure if she's reading this stuff then she'll see how much I care and what I am willing to put up with to try and turn this boat around. If she posts here...outta be fun. She may have a couple of friends rooting her on, but here, she'll find people who believe what she did is unacceptable.

Thanks for all of the well wishes. I'm in for a long road no matter what. I won't let this be a 6 year long divorce like the OM, though!


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## Acabado

She will percieve all your "figuring her out" as arrogance and condescendence, as not knowing her at all, as someone who believes she's a child, uncapable of ownig her actions, someone who's feelings and thoughts are dissmissed as inmature. She will alternate between laughing at the notion of fog and pure anger. She won't like what you percieve is going on here, in her head, her heart.
She won't believe she has low selfsteem, how follishly sough external validation by gaining back this OM, the BFF who dumped her in the past leaving her wounded and that all of this clouds her mind, her perception of the reality. She won't like you are monitoring her comunications with anybody, specially OM and her enabler cousin.

If she find this thread it will lead to no good.
IMHO.


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## alte Dame

Acabado said:


> She will percieve all your "figuring her out" as arrogance and condescendence, as not knowing her at all, as someone who believes she's a child, uncapable of ownig her actions, someone who's feelings and thoughts are dissmissed as inmature. She will alternate between laughing at the notion of fog and pure anger. She won't like what you percieve is going on here, in her head, her heart.
> She won't believe she has low selfsteem, how follishly sough external validation by gaining back this OM, the BFF who dumped her in the past leaving her wounded and that all of this clouds her mind, her perception of the reality. She won't like you are monitoring her comunications with anybody, specially OM and her enabler cousin.
> 
> If she find this thread it will lead to no good.
> IMHO.


This is a very wise, thoughtful comment. I've gotten used to this thread at this point & have come to root for OP, but, indeed, his W could very well be extremely unhappy at what she reads here, both her H's and other posters' words.


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## falconrap

She already knows I can monitor her stuff. And, since she is acting like a teenager, she will do what she will do. If her logical side engages for a moment and sees what is going on, then she will see what I have said. In the end, if she doesn't see a thread like this and come to realize what she has been doing is so greatly wrong, there's no hope anyways.

I can't help if if she was naive enough to let the OM do to her what he did. If she can't figure out the guy was all about him, and zero about her...well...she's beyond hope. All of us guys here no what the OM was doing; i.e. Using her. She'll either learn before we go the D route, or she'll learn after and make a huge mess of our lives.


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## falconrap

She came home and was very nice today. Much better than this morning and the last two days. Then she got surprised with her bathroom having been cleaned. Made for a nice mood on her part. We are, at least, in the conflict stage of marriage, so I can see hope for it to eventually go back to the state of intimacy in a few months or so. The little things I am doing appear to be slowly proving myself to her as someone worth being around.

Whether or not I we will have to go through some form of separation or not, is still in the air, but days like today remind me there is hope. Quite frankly, if the little things I am doing for her don't impact how she feels about me, then there is no hope. But she seems to be letting me do more things for her with less of the conflict then we had a couple of weeks ago. What she may, or may not, have found...I still don't know.

I'll keep everyone updated as we go.


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## giashasa2012

falconrap said:


> .....The little things I am doing appear to be slowly proving myself to her as someone worth being around.
> 
> ........ But she seems to be letting me do more things for her with less of the conflict then we had a couple of weeks ago. ............



AND WHAT DOES SHE DO FOR YOU ???????????

Even if she stays and even IF she finds her love for you she will never respect you in the way a woman should respect a man ....


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## falconrap

giashasa2012 said:


> AND WHAT DOES SHE DO FOR YOU ???????????
> 
> Even if she stays and even IF she finds her love for you she will never respect you in the way a woman should respect a man ....


She's done some small things just for me here and there. Nothing big, but things she didn't have to do.

Sorry, but I don't subscribe to the thought process you are subscribing too. In order for us to be whole again, she will have to go through the MB program with me, which basically forces respect from each spouse for the other. Quite honestly, I don't even know what kind of respect you are even talking about. You sound like one of the "kick the b___h to the curb" types.


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## Shaggy

I'm not a kick to curb guys, but seriously cleaning her bathroom? That's very submissive and passive behwvior in response to flat out betrayal,


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## GetTough

Wow, every time I stick my head into this thread, OP is finding another way to supplicate. Cleaning her bathroom? I don't think I've found any other thread on TAM... ever... where someone so carefully rationalizes "buying" his wife back by doing stuff for her. I hope this works for you Falconrap, I really do, but it goes against ALL the theory, and a large amount of real experience of many men on here. I will be both fascinated and amazed if you can pull this off.


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## falconrap

GetTough said:


> Wow, every time I stick my head into this thread, OP is finding another way to supplicate. Cleaning her bathroom? I don't think I've found any other thread on TAM... ever... where someone so carefully rationalizes "buying" his wife back by doing stuff for her. I hope this works for you Falconrap, I really do, but it goes against ALL the theory, and a large amount of real experience of many men on here. I will be both fascinated and amazed if you can pull this off.


It goes against the theories of certain folks, not all. There are two competing theories here. The first is the alpha/beta, treat her like she no longer exists theory (the MMSL stuff). The second follows the MB plan of doing plan A until either she comes to her senses, or you plan B her before D. If you have done a great plan A, there is a decent chance they will realize what they are missing when they are separated from you and will snap out of it and want to come back. As I have already explained before, on this very thread, neither works 100% of the time, and the first one only seems to work on certain types of women. As I explained, doing the alpha/beta type 180 with me ignoring her only pushed her further away. She didn't respond to that type of action. Plus, I have always been a good alpha/beta mix, so I really had issues believing it would work in the first place and I was right.

As such, I have decided to follow the MB plan, and post regularly over there. I have seen a lot more movement with her by doing the things I have been doing, plan a style, than with any MMSL based plan from here. The bottom line is, NO SINGLE PLAN WORKS ON ALL. That's the bottom line. You have to figure out what works with your WS and adjust.

The best way to describe what is required to recover the marriage is to understand that the marriage goes through 3 states (intimacy, conflict, and withdrawal) and someone has to give in and go first to bring the other one back once both are in withdrawal or have been in conflict long enough to risk withdrawal. I am going first. My needs are on the back-burner until she starts to see where I am willing to take her, and until her giver comes back out and stays out a lot more than her taker. I am seeing her giver come out at times, but her taker still pops out from time to time. We are clearly in the conflict stage, which is good, as there is hope that the relationship can eventually get back to intimacy. I'm willing to do the heavy lifting for now. This, obviously, can't go on forever. Right now I am focused on the end result. Since she doesn't respond well to MMSL techniques, and she does to MB ones...that is the route I have chosen. I expect her to eventually start filling some of my needs (she has dabbled a little in filling some, unknown to her).

In the end, you must know which path your WS will respond to and adjust as required, or you are doomed to fail.


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## falconrap

Shaggy said:


> I'm not a kick to curb guys, but seriously cleaning her bathroom? That's very submissive and passive behwvior in response to flat out betrayal,


She didn't order me to do it. It was something I did because it was needed and I wanted to do something nice for her. Even when a guy does the MMSL ignore her method, you are still, in essence, trying to win her back. The key is understanding what method of "winning her back" works as it depends on their EN's. Relying strictly on the endorphin method will fail long term if that is all you have. You must know, and fill, their emotional needs, and vice versa, for a relationship to recover and last.

I swear, I don't understand how surprising her by cleaning her bathroom is submissive and passive. Submission means willingly following another (not what I did here). Being passive assumes I'm just following orders and not doing things in my own. I see opportunities to do something that earns me respect and love in her eyes (not yours or any posters here). You have to find out what your spouse responds to and do those things.

She responds to me listening to her, doing nice things for her out of the blue, and leading when needed, but being mindful of her wishes (POJA stuff here from MB).


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## kenmoore14217

totally zen, I get it


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## snap

I hope it works for you in the end, although am highly skeptical.

(Just don't use your toothbrush)


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## giashasa2012

falconrap said:


> She's done some small things just for me here and there. Nothing big, but things she didn't have to do.


Small things are easy to do there is no cost , but to do some big things , things that need sacrifice that's another thing



falconrap said:


> Sorry, but I don't subscribe to the thought process you are subscribing too. In order for us to be whole again, she will have to go through the MB program with me, which basically forces respect from each spouse for the other.


I doubt that any program can forces respect for one spouse...
Some one will respect you for who you are , for your convictions , for your principals , for your actions not because you do some brainwashing exercises . 



falconrap said:


> Quite honestly, I don't even know what kind of respect you are even talking about. You sound like one of the "kick the b___h to the curb" types.


I am one of the "kick the b___h to the curb if no children are present.

If children are present I am for R if the WS is willing to R and does the heavy lifting but if WS does not defog on D-DAY then I am for 180 (to detach) and lawyer (for D).

And if she D-fog sometime later , I will take in account our prior life , our economic situation , the way she behaved when she had her affair to me and our children , the impact that this situation has to the children , what she is willing to do to mend the marriage and my emotional attachment or lack of it for her ( at that point)

It has nothing to do with kick the b___h to the curb, it has everything to do with my children and me . 

To protect my self emotionally to be able to continue with my life and help them cope with the situation

To protect my self financially so I can provide for them.

And to teach them a lesson to not let anyone walk over them even someone who they love ( you give some one who you love one second change and only one and only for the right reasons)

And I will not call ever the mother of my children a B***H even if she is one.


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## falconrap

As I suspected. I have two young children, and have seen the MB program bring back couples who actually disliked each other, but, at some point, decided it was better to reconcile for the kids. End result. A great marriage because of the program. Respect is a learned behavior; i.e. You learn to respect someone...it's not just given.

The path you mention leads the majority straight to divorce because most women can take 3-6 months, sometimes longer, to get over the emotions that attached to the OM. You have to be willing to give them time to overcome those feelings. The only other option is the riskier option of separation early to try to shock them out. From all of the threads I have seen, if you are dealing with an EA with a WW, this almost always fails unless you do a great plan A first. Even then, the separation route is always a risk to permanently lose the spouse (out of sight...out of mind).

For my situation, I have chosen to pull off a great plan A, hoping she will come around before plan B is required. If not, plan B has a much better chance of success after doing this plan A. If it doesn't work then, I will be able to leave the marriage knowing I gave it my all to save it for myself and the kids. I won't be haunted by things I could have done, and I will have the right program ready for my next relationship.

Simply put, if I can get her to reconcile and we use the MB program (this means we are BOTH committing to it) then we have a greater than 90% chance to have a great marriage long term.

This is the reason why I had stopped posting here. Too many here of the kick 'em to curb variety. Sorry...that's not what I am going to do.


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## snap

We realize it's not what you're going to do. We have seen this play out here many, many times.

Still, good luck.


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## giashasa2012

What are the long term statistic of this success stories and what is the source of this statistics 

I don't trust this miracle programs that come with a price.

And as for MB program someone of the veterans of this site had some good information how the run the forum search the threads


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## falconrap

I've read numerous threads on both sites...numerous. The ones that work with MMSL are basically ones where the WW's needs match up with the techniques used. The rest fail, and do so miserably. The odds using the MB principle appear to be better if done right. The simple fact is, if you can meet the WW's EN's, assuming the affair is over, then you will slowly but surely build the love back up to the level of romantic - at that point the WW has an overwhelming attraction to the BH again. It usually takes a lot longer with women than with WH's because of how deep the emotional aspect normally is (there are exceptions). I know, because of behavior I have seen, that my wife still has some love for me, just not at the romantic level. The MB plan gives me the best chance, in my case, to build that level back up to romantic.

What I have seen is that couples who choose to follow the program are literally over 90% likely to end up together for the long haul with a great (not just good) marriage. It's getting both committed that is the only unsure part. If I had to put numbers, based on what I have seen, I would say less than 15% make it via MMSL from an affair. I would say the number is closer to 25-30% for those who do a solid plan A, and a solid plan B when needed, using MB.

The reality is that the odds aren't great to begin with, but, in most cases, I have found that these things usually fail because the BS gets selfish (what about my needs kind of stuff) before the WS is ready to start filling those needs (basically they give in to their own taker), or they fail to do the plan A well enough and long enough to make a difference. The ones who succeed are the ones who put their taker in its place, and look to this being a long term recovery. The reality is that most of these recoveries take 1-2 years before the marriage is at or beyond where it was at its best in the past.

I am well aware that a good number of regulars here hate MB and don't buy into their plan. That's their opinion and it's my life and my wife at stake, so I tried what was suggested here and almost blew any chance to recover. When I switched, I started getting positive results. My advice to anyone is to not take what posters here, or their, take as gospel and simply look for what will work in your situation. Not all women are monolithic endorphin driven robots. Some respond very positively to the "ignore her" method. Others get driven away. Plain and simple. If I'm trying to save my marriage, why would I continue to use a method that wasn't working, and was, in fact, doing more harm? If I found another proven method that was working much better, why would I stop using it because a bunch of internet posters have "seen it all", especially when it is clear they have not?

I have seen threads here where the WS was trying to come back, but the ignore them, and only on my terms types drove them away and they ended up divorced. Might have been a good thing for them...or they might have found that they could have restored their marriage since the WS was at least ready to try to come back.

We all have to make a decision on what we are willing to go through for the person we love. The woman I married was perfect for me. Her self-esteem issues led her astray, though. Doesn't change the fact that we still get along tremendously well when her taker isn't popping out moaning about the situation. As her resentment as eased, we have become closer, though not close enough to reconcile. I suspect that will happen in the next couple of months as we go through the holidays. If I wasn't seeing this progress, I would be going to plan B within the next couple of weeks. I've seen enough to know I am on the right path. Ultimately, if I can't get her to fall back in love, it's all mute anyways. Then we'll have to work on reconciliation and getting her counseling on the self-esteem issues.


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## Acabado

> I have seen threads here where the WS was trying to come back, but the ignore them, and only on my terms types drove them away and they ended up divorced


What's wrong with this advice? Don't you think it depends on the terms themselves? Don't you think it depends on the warward terms?
Now you have embraced fully MB, this guy claims remorse is not necessary. At.All. Does it sound right? They can backstab you, don't don't feel an inch of remorse for it and suggest you to take them back anyway. Could you? Not me.


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## falconrap

MB requires just compensation. Most WS's go through guilt. What Dr. Harley states is that they may not actually come out and apologize. But, really, if they come back around and commit to the program, are they not, in fact, apologizing in a way? The program takes a lot of work. If the WS is willing to commit to the program, they are telling you they have come to the conclusion that the path they were on is wrong, and this is a way to make things right. What more do you really need? To me, requiring an audible apology is petty. I want the commitment and the result. That's all that counts.

Besides, the plan requires the WS to commit to NC and to follow the plan which means meeting the BS' needs. I'm not out for a vendetta on my wife. Nor do feel the need to "prove" her wrong. I just want her to wake-up and realize what she did was was wrong and commit to working with me to make a great marriage for us and the kids. All the other stuff is just holding onto the past and the resentment that comes with it. This is, in fact, why many marriages don't survive affairs: one or both fail to let go of the resentment allowing the couple to move forward.


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## Shaggy

Cleaning the bathroom is essentially latrine duty and it projects a very poor vision of your position in the house.

I know it needs to be done,that's not the point,

Cleaning a bathroom as a way to curry favor is a very submissive action in my view. It's not about her having asked you to do it, it's more about it being the place you go to do your business. It's not in anyway associated with good things.


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## Shaggy

Cleaning the bathroom is essentially latrine duty and it projects a very poor vision of your position in the house.

I know it needs to be done,that's not the point,

Cleaning a bathroom as a way to curry favor is a very submissive action in my view. It's not about her having asked you to do it, it's more about it being the place you go to do your business. It's not in anyway associated with good things.


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## iheartlife

falconrap said:


> MB requires just compensation. Most WS's go through guilt. What Dr. Harley states is that they may not actually come out and apologize. But, really, if they come back around and commit to the program, are they not, in fact, apologizing in a way? The program takes a lot of work. If the WS is willing to commit to the program, they are telling you they have come to the conclusion that the path they were on is wrong, and this is a way to make things right. What more do you really need? To me, requiring an audible apology is petty. I want the commitment and the result. That's all that counts.


I thought 'love means you never have to say you're sorry' went out of fashion in 1971. If it ever was in fashion.

Do I "demand" or "expect" an apology when my husband steps on my foot? No, but it IS a sign of his love for me.

I seriously doubt you would ever have married your wife if she didn't routinely apologize when she hurt you in the past. The fact that you are settling for so little now is not noble and I can't imagine that Dr. Harley would see it your way (having read his writings extensively). I bet if the shoe were on the other foot your wife would have your head on a pike if you wouldn't apologize.

But you're right, it's not about apologizing. It's about demonstrating the effort. And I strongly suspect that someone who never apologizes will, in the end, fail to 'commit to the program.'


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## Machiavelli

Falcon, don't be a stranger. Pop in from time to time and let us know how that MB program is working out for you. Best of luck to you.


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## falconrap

Right now, my wife is not ready to reconcile. That is the whole point. Right now, the only thing I can do is keep the love bank from draining any further and try to slowly fill it back up. She is at least at the point where I am, ever so slowly, being able to make more deposits than withdrawals. She won't let me do the the things that could fill it up fast and get her back to the romantic love level where the marriage can move back to intimacy.

As I continue to do this, the odds of her wanting me again will increase. Until she is to the point where she wants to reconcile, She is not going to give me my just compensation. This is why I am in plan A. If I am lucky, I'll be able to get her back to the romantic level and wanting to reconcile before I have to go with plan B, because plan B is very risky and is more about the BS than the WS. The odds are low, but, even today, I have seen movement. I believe I have a chance to get her to reconcile in plan A because I don't believe she actually fell completely out of love with me (the way she acts around me when her taker is taking a back seat pretty much show me how she feels under all of that resentment).

My goal is simple...in the plan A time frame I want to wear her defenses down as much as possible so that she sees what she has. If you don't have a great impression of your spouse when you leave, you won't likely come back. That is the purpose of doing what I am doing. Make her know and understand what she will be giving up. If she realizes before I have to go to plan B, and she commits to the program fully (which includes providing me just compensation by doing the things I ask to remove the OM threat more permanently) then I can accept that and the commitment as an apology. I'm not just going to take her back without her willingness to put in the work. We just aren't there yet. We are at the stage where one of us has to lead us out of the woods before we can put our house back together. I'm leading this part. Once reconciliation is possible, I will expect her to put the effort in and be sincere, or no dice.

I think the biggest mis-conception here is how best to get you spouse to be willing to reconcile. The MMSL method wasn't working, and was only driving her further away. You generally are not going to be as successful at drawing your spouse back to you unless you are trying hard to meet their emotional needs. Once you get them to that point...then it's their turn. Some BS' manage to get their spouse to immediately want to reconcile. Others have to get them there, if possible. I'm the latter. If I can keep her going in this direction, I believe I can get her to want me back, at which point I will make sure my needs are met and just compensation occurs.


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## falconrap

Shaggy said:


> Cleaning the bathroom is essentially latrine duty and it projects a very poor vision of your position in the house.
> 
> I know it needs to be done,that's not the point,
> 
> Cleaning a bathroom as a way to curry favor is a very submissive action in my view. It's not about her having asked you to do it, it's more about it being the place you go to do your business. It's not in anyway associated with good things.


You are correct...it's your view. I do not share it.

Not that I don't appreciate your view. I simply disagree. A great plan A means you do "favors" to make sure your spouse knows what they have. You must, of course, avoid being a doormat in the process, but if you aren't putting that effort in, the chances of you reconciling are even less.


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## workindad

OP, I really do wish you the best of luck. You have embarked on a path that I could not have gone.

I am however very curious to see if your method actually works. I hope it does and am sure that in some cases it would. Please keep us posted.

WD


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## Machiavelli

falconrap said:


> I think the biggest mis-conception here is how best to get you spouse to be willing to reconcile. The MMSL method wasn't working, and was only driving her further away.


IIRC, Athol says MAP won't work if an OM is in the picture.


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## Plan 9 from OS

Machiavelli said:


> IIRC, Athol says MAP won't work if an OM is in the picture.


JMHO, but I don't think ANY strategy would work unless the affair partner is out of the picture. IMHO, to try to win your spouse back while he/she is actively involved in an affair is stupid. 

But this brings up an interesting point Falcon, when you tried a more direct approach to try to snap her out of the fog, was there still contact between your wife and her OM? If so, then it's no wonder why it would have failed. Your method may be "working" but only because the OM is no longer in the picture.


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## SkaterDad

falcon, I've been following this for a while, and I'm interested in the results/path you're taking. My stbx has the same low esteem issues, along with others and hasn't been responsive to the 180 etc.(altho I feel good, no R in sight and I filed) I have researched the MB stuff, and I can see where you're coming from, a Plan A isn't a doormat or beta, as long as you stick to your boundaries. 

my 2 cents worth, let us know how it goes, I have had a similar thought process as you have written about here.


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## falconrap

Initially, yes, as I started the MMSL before exposure. I did, however, continue it for some time after OM while and it only pushed her away. Right now she still has some vague reminders of him. She probably triggers on those a little which is what may be dragging this out even more. Unfortunately, I can't get did of the other triggers right now. I have gotten rid of the biggies, though, including the FB friendship being dropped on his end.

Once I got informed, I new all to well that I wasn't going to be able to win her back if he was in contact with her. Exposure is absolutely CRITICAL to ANY attempt to try and get your spouse turned around. If you can get rid of all emails, texts, voicemails, and other triggers, you stand an even better chance.

For me, I am still fighting her resentment of what I did, combined with her self-esteem issues that created this mess. That is the other demon I am up against. I think she has recognized the problem though. She has mentioned to others that she may seek out help to prove we (her family and I) are wrong. Deep down, though, I suspect she knows we are right. Just too much proof of it to deny.

Do remember that plan B forces a separation with NC. So that will be the "snap her out of it" moment if she doesn't get there in plan A. What it all boils down to is what weaknesses the WS had that ended up in the affair, what type and length of affair it was, and how that WS responds to various methods that all determines what you must do and when they are most likely to come out of the fog fully, if they even come out.

I think MMSL works best when the spouse did the affair more based on when they aren't sure what they really want or the affair was something that they got caught up in, but realize it was wrong. Affairs with self-esteem issues at their heart aren't going to respond to MMSL, because the pulling away only makes them less secure and justifies, in their mind, that their affair partner is the one that cares. This is why I think MB works more often because it can address a wider type of cheater than MMSL. Whether or not the BS wants to put in the effort to make plan A a success, is something that does factor in. Most of the recovered marriages I have read about, beyond those that MMSL works on, are recovered when the BS does a great plan A before anything else. Most still require plan B, but a few manage to come back before that. Only time will tell which route mine goes, or if I even get her back.


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## SkaterDad

EA, moving on, possible exit A, you can read my whole thread on it. I botched a lot, but tried to "nice" her out first. I think your idea here is on point, I know I may never have my family back either, and that's not alpha or beta. I think mine is trying to prove to her family that she was right, and I'm a scumbag. So pushing her away may not work, but will help me move on. at some point it's all gone already, so strategy is out since it's over anyway. 

I know her cheating is 100% her, although I can own what went into it prior, at least my part of it. That's what I'm sticking to, thru the D, to anyone I talk to, and that I'm willing to put in the time. If not, it's 110% on her for not taking the opportunity to turn the marriage around.

BTW I'm in the TB area, and we were both avid outdoors people. Moving to FL from OR, a kid, work changed all that. My job kept/keeps me in a chair and she hated that, but that's my 180. Now I'm back out biking, skating, fishing, kayaking. I had to do it today, get up and go ride 40 minutes, in the "cold" (68). keep on my program. No excuses!


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## Shaggy

Good luck falcon. I hope you win, even though I do not think your approach makes you attractive to your wife.

the OM must be fully gone before any progress on the marriage is possible.


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## falconrap

I think the hang up, Shaggy, is that you think I'm rolling over and just doing everything for my wife. That's simply not true. The prior weekend she wanted to wash her vehicle. I got the stuff out for her and showed her what I typically use and let her do it. At one point she realized she was going to need the step ladder to get the top of her vehicle washed and I told her I would do that part for her, and did, but then I handed the brush back to her to continue.

Women don't want a doormat. But they find an uninterested, lazy husband, who won't help them out from time to time, to be just as unattractive. It's about balance. Occasionally surprising your spouse by performing some chore for them is NOT unattractive. Doing everything they ask at their very whim is when you are in doormat land. Even the experts on the MMSL say hat it doesn't mean you don't ever do things that they ask you to do. You just don't go out of your way when they ask you to do so (going out of your way on YOUR terms still fits). There really is a portion of MMSL that is fully compatible with MB, and this is it. But detaching from your wife only works in a limited set of circumstances. The rest require you to do the heavy lifting at first and get them to start remembering, or seeing for the first time, that you are someone worth being with. Otherwise, why would they want to be with you?

Plan B is the shock and awe portion. If they don't get it during plan A, must don't' but some do, then, after doing a nice plan A for a while, you send 'em packing and they face the sudden reality of what life is like without you. But there is the chance that separation will backfire, which is why plan B is what you do when you are ready to let go if they won't reconcile. When combined, the two methods have the most success rate I have seen, as long as they are done right.


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## falconrap

I knew something was up...she's getting the help she needs. Kind of explains why she's been vacillating so much. If she can get herself right, we have a chance.


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## cantdecide

What do you mean "she's getting the help she needs"?


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## falconrap

The root cause of what she did was her self-esteem issues, as J have described in this thread. She is seeing help now for that.


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## iheartlife

falconrap said:


> The root cause of what she did was her self-esteem issues, as J have described in this thread. She is seeing help now for that.


Finally. And I hope the counselor is marriage-friendly.


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## falconrap

iheartlife said:


> Finally. And I hope the counselor is marriage-friendly.


I'm trying to find out who she is seeing. Hopefully, it's one that believes in interdependence, as opposed to those in the anti-codependence movement where they turn people into sociopathic narcissist who only think of themselves.

If she gets the right help, one where they teach her to be comfortable with herself and seek happiness through her own actions (such as being giving to others and, oh, I don't know, a faithful mother maybe). This is the help she needs. She can wan to improve herself, but she must be able to accept who she is and not dwell on her weight to the point of unhappiness, and she needs to realize that life is full of both good and bad moments. The fairy tales don't exist.

I wish her the best in this. If done right, it will allow us a chance to heal and move on.


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## falconrap

She told me this morning that she has been to a psychiatrist and that the doctor diagnosed her with ADD but gave her Strattera which is An ADD medication that is also used off-label for depression and anxiety (including social anxiety which I suspect the doctor believes she has - the doctor apparently mentioned the drugs use for depression). The symptoms of ADD, depression, and social anxiety would all line-up with the things I have seen from her, so this medication could potentially do her a lot of good. Her anxiety of her looks led to her lack of desire for SF and led to us pulling apart from each other. It's the root cause of her issues, in my opinion. I will know in a few weeks if this is working or not. It also is supposed to be good for lifting general thought fog, so this may also lift the affair fog effects, but I'm not going to hold my hopes up - just not be surprised if it does.


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## JCD

falconrap said:


> She told me this morning that she has been to a psychiatrist and that the doctor diagnosed her with ADD but gave her Strattera which is An ADD medication that is also used off-label for depression and anxiety (including social anxiety which I suspect the doctor believes she has - the doctor apparently mentioned the drugs use for depression). The symptoms of ADD, depression, and social anxiety would all line-up with the things I have seen from her, so this medication could potentially do her a lot of good. Her anxiety of her looks led to her lack of desire for SF and led to us pulling apart from each other. It's the root cause of her issues, in my opinion. I will know in a few weeks if this is working or not. It also is supposed to be good for lifting general thought fog, so this may also lift the affair fog effects, but I'm not going to hold my hopes up - just not be surprised if it does.


Okay. Here is a question for you and her: Do all people with ADD cheat? No? :scratchhead:


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## JCD

falconrap said:


> She didn't order me to do it. It was something I did because it was needed and I wanted to do something nice for her.


Well, using that logic, if unasked, you walked into the bathroom while she was using it and wiped her rear, that is the height of manliness and not demaning at all!

Wait...what? :scratchhead:

You have a fundemental misunderstanding of the MAP plan IMO.

First off, she shouldn't be missing "SUPER NICE MR. MOM" She should be missing whou you were *PRE AFFAIR*. All you are doing with this is to set the bar where you have become her maid. Because if she gets used to this level of treatment (i.e. what she will be missing), when you stop doing it, SHE'LL MISS IT ANYWAY!

Or were you planning on always being her bathroom attendent? (Tip: Put out a little plate with a dollar or two to encourage tips)

How about this: Maybe she doesn't want to be married.

I am reminded of...well...me! My wife offers me eggs over easy. Pass. She offers them scrambled. Pass. Boiled, fried, doesn't matter. I don't like eggs.

So the MMSL might be failing because she wants out. I base this on the fact that your Mr. Mom act isn't getting many results either. You said she STILL isn't interested in reconciling. She is resisting every single thing you are doing to be nice to her and 'make deposits'. She was surprised that you cleaned the bathroom because now she has to deal with the guilt that brings. Luckily, she'll rationalize it exactly the way you are: It needed doing anyway, so I owe him nothing.

This means that the MB will also fail. So don't blame MMSL for the problems. It might start at the source (her)

She won't let you know who her counselor is so for all you know, this person might be rah rahing her getting set for divorce.

What I want to hear is these 'little things' she is doing for you. What are they; Smiling at you? Picking up a little thing you like because she was at th store anyway? Cleaning the dishes she helped dirty?

I ask because it's very easy (too easy) to be subjective about these 'little nice things' "Oh...she wiped her knife on a dish towel and not my shirt after stabbing me in the back. She must really care because she knows this is my favorite shirt!" 

I'm teasing, but I hope you get what I mean.


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## iheartlife

JCD said:


> Well, using that logic, if unasked, you walked into the bathroom while she was using it and wiped her rear, that is the height of manliness and not demaning at all!
> 
> Wait...what? :scratchhead:
> 
> You have a fundemental misunderstanding of the MAP plan but since you refuse to engage your wife in any kind of conflict, explaining it is a waste of time.


This pretty much sums up the 26 pages of this thread. But, you will find, falconrap is not to be deterred.


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## JCD

iheartlife said:


> This pretty much sums up the 26 pages of this thread. But, you will find, falconrap is not to be deterred.


Hope that works for him then.


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## falconrap

JCD, I have found far better advice on the other forum and things are going as expected. She is still grieving the loss of the affair and is starting to head toward rock bottom, the point at which, as with most waywards, they come to realize the affair is over and the consequences of what they have done begin to really sink in. Once that occurs, a chance to turn her back to the marriage and get her to be willing to put the work in can occur.

Your opinion is crap to me. I don't sit here and do everything for her. Hardly. I just look for opportunities to surprise her with something that shows I care and I have value. The biggest problem I see on these boards here, and why I see so many failures, is that the advice here has a tendency to push the wife away. What I am doing I have seen work far more often; i.e. Doing a great plan A as long as possible until the WW either gets to the point where she is willing to reconcile, or you have to plan b her and see if she does then, but at greater risk.

This site tends to fail to understand that you actually have to win you wife back, if you are willing and want your marriage to succeed. My wife seems to be following the script to slow recovery, and I have been told by people far more knowledgeable in the area of material recovery that I am doing the a good job and to keep it up, as the signs she is showing is what I should expect.

I rarely post here because of the attitude of a group of posters such as yourself. The basic premise behind the 5 Love Languages and His Needs;Her Needs both work, and have saved countless marriages. I am following the more detailed HNHN model from MB, but it's the same basic principle. The MMSL crap made me drive a wedge further between me and my wife. That's just the way it is. Why stick to something that obviously wasn't working?


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## falconrap

tdwal said:


> How is it going with your wife? Is the medication helping?


It's hard to say. Dr. Harley actually gave me some advice on the self-esteem area letting me know I shouldn't focus on that as it wasn't likely to bear fruit. Her depression symptoms are more muted, and her ADD is getting a little better, but she is starting to head toward rock bottom, sleeping a lot, not doing things a lot, all signs that the consequences of what she has done are sinking in. I'm hoping she hits that turning point within this month, but I'm still shooting for the March time frame. I'm doing pretty good right now, so I can hang in there for a while and let the addiction die it's natural death.

As you can see, I'm still getting crap from a group of posters here.


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## iheartlife

falconrap said:


> sleeping a lot, not doing things a lot


These are all signs of depression.


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## falconrap

iheartlife said:


> These are all signs of depression.


Yes, they are. And this is good. It means she is going through the phase she needs to go through. If our marriage has a chance to recover, she'll go through this stage, hit rock bottom, and hopefully be ready to work on fixing our marriage. So far, from all I have read and been told, she is pretty much right on schedule, coming up on 3 months after exposure.

At this point, it all comes down to whether or not the affair dies in her mind and she comes out of the fog. I'm doing what I can in plan A right now, and the results seem to be typical. As she goes further into depression, though, I'm more or less treading water as far as her feelings toward me. But, if she comes out of this, I will then have a window of opportunity to reconcile correctly, and I need to be weary of a false recovery. She has to agree to my list of demands regarding protecting us from further EA's.

I become more hopeful as I see her following the path I have been told she will, as it means she is progressing and the affair is on it's natural course...the end of it in her mind. I think the medication she is taking has simply softened the depression up some. I have been told, and seen repeatedly, that the affair, in the WW's mind, can take as long as it lasted for it to die. That would put it at 11 months. So far, I think it might die quicker, but I am pegging March as the time frame by which I want to see signs that it is about to die, or dead already.


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## iheartlife

falconrap said:


> Yes, they are. And this is good. It means she is going through the phase she needs to go through. If our marriage has a chance to recover, she'll go through this stage, hit rock bottom, and hopefully be ready to work on fixing our marriage. So far, from all I have read and been told, she is pretty much right on schedule, coming up on 3 months after exposure.
> 
> At this point, it all comes down to whether or not the affair dies in her mind and she comes out of the fog. I'm doing what I can in plan A right now, and the results seem to be typical. As she goes further into depression, though, I'm more or less treading water as far as her feelings toward me. But, if she comes out of this, I will then have a window of opportunity to reconcile correctly, and I need to be weary of a false recovery. She has to agree to my list of demands regarding protecting us from further EA's.
> 
> I become more hopeful as I see her following the path I have been told she will, as it means she is progressing and the affair is on it's natural course...the end of it in her mind. I think the medication she is taking has simply softened the depression up some. I have been told, and seen repeatedly, that the affair, in the WW's mind, can take as long as it lasted for it to die. That would put it at 11 months. So far, I think it might die quicker, but I am pegging March as the time frame by which I want to see signs that it is about to die, or dead already.


How long would you say that she's been this way, in terms of days / weeks / months--can you recall the onset of the current status with any precision.


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## anchorwatch

I see you're still at it Falcon. You're persistent. 

Two points for you to consider. 

I know emotions run high during the holidays and we all reflect on our loved ones and how loved we are. You think that she may be depressed or feeling sorry that she's screwed up her life and family. Could it be she's feeling down not because of what she's done but she's missing the OM contact now? Didn't she just ask you what you had said to him?

Your stance, your propensity to argue your point every time, your need to succeed. It's a double edge blade. This trait may work well outside of the home, but it may be disastrous with loved ones. How much of this got you to this point in life and your marriage. The way you're ready to engage each anonymous poster that disagrees. The way you came back at her during the talk, when she got home from her recent trip. Do you reflect on this part of your personality? Is it holding you back? 

You know my thoughts about what I would do. I'm not going for any arguments here, just a few possibilities from a different POV. Yet, I do understand that your need is so you will feel confidant, that in a short period of life, you did your best to prove what her loss is.

Carry on.


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## JCD

falconrap said:


> JCD, I have found far better advice on the other forum and things are going as expected. She is still grieving the loss of the affair and is starting to head toward rock bottom, the point at which, as with most waywards, they come to realize the affair is over and the consequences of what they have done begin to really sink in. Once that occurs, a chance to turn her back to the marriage and get her to be willing to put the work in can occur.
> 
> *Your opinion is crap to me.* I don't sit here and do everything for her. Hardly. I just look for opportunities to surprise her with something that shows I care and I have value. The biggest problem I see on these boards here, and why I see so many failures, is that the advice here has a tendency to push the wife away. *What I am doing I have seen work far more often; i*.e. Doing a great plan A as long as possible until the WW either gets to the point where she is willing to reconcile, or you have to plan b her and see if she does then, but at greater risk.
> 
> This site tends to fail to understand that you actually have to win you wife back, if you are willing and want your marriage to succeed. *My wife seems to be following the script to slow recovery*, and I have been told by people far more knowledgeable in the area of material recovery that I am doing the a good job and to keep it up, as the signs she is showing is what I should expect.
> 
> I rarely post here because of the attitude of a group of posters such as yourself. The basic premise behind the 5 Love Languages and His Needs;Her Needs both work, and have saved countless marriages. I am following the more detailed HNHN model from MB, but it's the same basic principle. The MMSL crap made me drive a wedge further between me and my wife. That's just the way it is. Why stick to something that obviously wasn't working?



1) My opinion is worth what you paid for it.

2) How many adulterous marriages have you seen and how can you say that one system works better than another? Or are you basing off of what the authors of the books you like say?

3) A slow recovery. IF you are recovering, bravo. And I am also open to alternate methods of recovering. My wife did not follow the TAM playbook either. BUT...even though I was only in an EA, it didn't take me more than 3 months to get back on the marriage bandwagon either. I can point you to at least 2 posters who are in 3 or 4 years of 'recovery'. Their wives really haven't changed that they can actually describe, except for saying 'She's ALMOST there...just about rock...bottom." With 10 minutes, I can look up at least 10 people who will say they were in a false R and their spouse was shining them on for YEARS...as they were cheating or looking behind their backs again. So...do you have a time limit? I don't believe in hard numbers, but I think you should be able to annunciate that 'if she isn't *coming*out of her depression in 6 months and showing SOME progress, I might need to put my marriage in the 'loss' column...'

Recall, Inigo DID succeed at storming the castle


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## falconrap

I will say that I have to apology for being short, but this is like the 20th time I've addressed the same points on this thread. What I have found to be consistent in what I have seen in many of the recovery stories is the following: 1) the withdrawal/depression period can last as long as the EA/PA, but can be shorter, 2) those whose waywards were recoverable had to plan A through this period and until the wayward decided to reconcile (the question is always "if" they choose to do so in the end, and I'm not at that point yet. 3) Real recovery can last a year or 2 once started, and isn't really truly ever over, but gets to the point, with proper work from both spouses, where the marriage is much better than before.

Right now my timeline is to wait until March and see if she's out of the fog and withdrawal or not. At that point, if she is not, then I will see if 1) she is making progress and appears to be on the verge of doing so, and 2) if I can go further. At this point, I'm doing fine and no longer really suffering, other than feeling a little lonely (I did that for 10 years of my adult life, so no big deal there). If I need to take this to the 1 year mark, to exceed the affair time, I will need to be sure I can handle it that long. I will NOT go past that, and, quite frankly, I don't want to really go past 6 months, but the pattern is consistent, in that waywards tend to take the length of the affair to get over it. I wish I had caught this back in January when my spidey senses started tingling, as I might be going into a real recovery right now, but I didn't.

I could risk forcing the issue by filing divorce, but I have seen that it can backfire almost as often as it succeeds. Wayward Wives in particular can use it as further justification in their warped minds that this just proves the husband didn't really care for them, and the filing proves it. This stuff is really a mess, but I have seen far more consistent results from the MB program with all the threads I have read.

I will not accept a false recovery. That much is for sure. She may be missing the guy, but some of her conversation with me indicates she is starting to see the issues she has created for our family, and now tends to talk about doing things next year. Almost as if this isn't happening. So her mind is obviously running the gauntlet right now, and I plan to let her feel the consequences and reach out only when appropriate. She has my conditions for recovery, and must accept those.

Now, I don't know whether or not all of this will work, but I had Dr. Harley tell me directly that I was doing the right things and needed to stay the course, but that it would be months before she would be ready to think about reconciling. I've have seen this pattern over and over in recovered wayward threads, with the length of time varying based on how long the EA/PA went on. So things appear to be going as people have told me to expect, and consistent with others. This is why I am staying the course, and not because I think I know better. I just have very knowledgeable people telling me this way works and I trust that method due to the success rate. Fair enough?


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## falconrap

I guess I'll go ahead and give a quick update here. It appears that my WW has come out of her depression and has become much more affable around me. She seems very comfortable being around me in comparison to before, but still not 100%. If I had to guess where her mindset is, I think she's realized that the OM isn't comin back to her and that she needs to focus on moving forward. But I don't think she is thinking reconciliation at this time. That's fine. If she is where I think she is, she is at least now in the state of mind where I can do things that may pull her back into the marriage full time.

She has even looked at me, twice, in the way a woman looks at you when she appears interested. I hadn't seen that look in quite a long time, and recognize it quite well from other women who have shown interest in me over the years. I'm going to be getting a coaching session with either Steve Harley or Dr. Chalmers to try and get the most effective plan I can to win her back. I'm hoping she'll be up for her own coaching session in the near future as well.

So, to cut it short, she appears to be turning the corner.


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## iheartlife

She's still not sleeping with you, correct? Just out of curiousity, what's your deadline on that particular issue?


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## falconrap

iheartlife said:


> She's still not sleeping with you, correct? Just out of curiousity, what's your deadline on that particular issue?


My deadline is about her willingness to reconcile (the March timeframe). If she is truly working to reconcile, then I am good, even if it takes longer before she is sharing our bed again. The bottom line is she has to reach the point of romantic love with me gain before she is likely to fulfill my SF needs. To be honest, I wasn't expecting her to come out of depression just yet. Figured it would be a couple of more weeks. Her demeanor, in general, has changed quite a bit. I haven't seen any real fog from her since the weekend when the depression appeared to lift.


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## iheartlife

falconrap said:


> My deadline is about her willingness to reconcile (the March timeframe). If she is truly working to reconcile, then I am good, even if it takes longer before she is sharing our bed again. The bottom line is she has to reach the point of romantic love with me gain before she is likely to fulfill my SF needs. To be honest, I wasn't expecting her to come out of depression just yet. Figured it would be a couple of more weeks. Her demeanor, in general, has changed quite a bit. I haven't seen any real fog from her since the weekend when the depression appeared to lift.


She is on anti-depressants?


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## 3putt

falconrap said:


> I'm going to be getting a coaching session with either Steve Harley or Dr. Chalmers to try and get the most effective plan I can to win her back. I'm hoping she'll be up for her own coaching session in the near future as well.
> 
> So, to cut it short, she appears to be turning the corner.


Steve Harley is very, VERY good at pulling WWs back into the marriage. I had a friend that used him with his WW and they are well on the road to full recovery, if not already there. That was how I got introduced to the MB site (and others like it) in the first place.


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## falconrap

iheartlife said:


> She is on anti-depressants?


She is on Strattera which is an ADD medicine with anti-depressant qualities. It seems to have softened her depression, but not eliminate it. She clearly went through a rock-bottom moment where, for a couple of days, she just moped around doing nothing and resting a lot. Saturday she seemed to start to come out of it. On Sunday she was very active and very congenial. We've had quite a few laughs shared the past 3 days, and she her sniping has lessened greatly. It's like she went back to how she was for brief periods during October, but even more affable.

If this continues for a week, then I think it will show she has turned the corner for certain. Then I have to work on getting her romantic love for me back.


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## falconrap

3putt said:


> Steve Harley is very, VERY good at pulling WWs back into the marriage. I had a friend that used him with his WW and they are well on the road to full recovery, if not already there. That was how I got introduced to the MB site (and others like it) in the first place.


I'm still debating on which to go with only because I figured my wife might respond better to a female. Do you have any more details on your friend's WW? Was she adamant about not doing counseling/coaching for marriage? I believe if I can get my wife to start the MB program, that we'll recover. Right now, I'm just doing plan A to the extent she allows, hoping to slowly turn the tide in my favor, which appears to be happening.


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## 3putt

falconrap said:


> I'm still debating on which to go with only because I figured my wife might respond better to a female. Do you have any more details on your friend's WW? Was she adamant about not doing counseling/coaching for marriage? I believe if I can get my wife to start the MB program, that we'll recover. Right now, I'm just doing plan A to the extent she allows, hoping to slowly turn the tide in my favor, which appears to be happening.


What details do you want? They are pretty much fully recovered, and she wanted no part in it to begin with.

Call the man, Aunt Bee!


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## falconrap

3putt said:


> What details do you want? They are pretty much fully recovered, and she wanted no part in it to begin with.
> 
> Call the man, Aunt Bee!


Pretty much what you just said. I had assumed from your other post that his WW was one of those who didn't want any part of reconciliation, nor any part in talking to a marriage counselor/coach. I've heard Steve is really good at motivating WW's to come for their first session, and to want to continue and work the course.

From what you are stating, it appears this was the case with your friend. I plan to finalize my appointment tomorrow and have my session next week. She seems to be entering the window of time where I can start courting her back into the marriage and don't want to go to long before getting a strong plan in place to reel her in.


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## 3putt

Seriously falcon, call him tomorrow and set this up. You're going to do it anyway, so why not now? Why wait?

And good luck!!!


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## falconrap

Don't worry. I'm finalizing my appointment today when I get to work. I know how successful he is. The MB posters have said quite a few good things about his work for the years.

She still seems quite affable this morning, so no signs yet that she is dipping back down into depression. Continued good signs I believe.


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## WyshIknew

I'm puzzled about something. This isn't a bashing post, just not sure on some details and consequences. I'm not familiar with the program you are using.

I can't read through all the posts at the moment but have checked in from time to time. I think we both work in a similar field, electronics.

From your posts the affair either lasted 11 months or occured 11 months ago. You've been posting here since mid August and have obviously going through hell dealing with this.

With this program what are the consequences. I may be naive but it seems that at the end of it either your wife comes out of the fog and you resume your marriage or you proceed with divorce.

Certainly with the resume marriage scenario where are the consequences for your wife?
She has had her jollies with the POSOM and totally disrespected you and your chidren. She then gets to say "ok, sorry about that were where we?".
Has the OM suffered any consequences for his actions?

Meanwhile you have to suck it up and go through all sorts of mental and physical gymnastics while knowing that you having been getting any loving yet your wife probably bonked OM stupid every which way they could.

I know life isn't fair but this is just not 'fair' on you and your children.

That being said, as you say, from your posts recently there does seem to be hope that she is starting to settle for you instead of OM.


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## WyshIknew

By consequences I mean consequences for your wife so as to hopefully further affair proof the marriage, and for her to fully realise what misery she has put you through.

And for the OM? Yes vengeful consequences!


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## falconrap

WyshIknew, I'm not going to bash back, but this attitude is why I tend not to come here any more, as it is prevalent. The Marriage Builders program has consistent success with those who implement (honestly, when both couples actually work the plan the success rate is in the high 90's). What Dr. Harley's philosophy, proven over 30 years (Dr. Chapman, writer of The 5 Love Languages has come to a similar conclusion over a similar period of time) is that affairs happen when one spouse falls out of love with the other because their most important emotional needs aren't getting met in the manner they need them met. So in this case, my wife felt neglected when I pulled away from her when she wasn't fulfilling my SF need (which is based on her own self-esteem issues). That doesn't mean I am responsible for her affair. It's just the conditions that allowed her to find someone else to meet some of her needs.

The MB program finds consistent success by treating the real problem: your spouse is no longer romantically in love with you. The program shows you how both can work to regain that love, then maintain it over the years. Typically, couples have a marriage better than the one they had within about a year or two after recovery begins. Long term, people who have used MB typically maintain a great marriage through the rest of their years. The results are consistent across many couples with various issues.

Affair proofing the marriage is part of the program. It requires 100% honesty, including all passwords, accounting for time, and not making friends with those of the opposite sex. There's more to it than just that, but the whole point is finding the top 5 emotional needs and fulfilling them for your spouse (and vice versa) in the way they like it filled, but which also can be met by you with enthusiastic agreement (this is the Policy of Joint Agreement - POJA - where you don't do non-mundane things without enthusiastic agreement from both spouses - including the way you fill EN's). So if she follows this program with me, and implements the Extraordinary Protections (EP's) that I require to feel safe, thus providing what is called just compensation, then she will have repaid what is required for us to move forward.

For me, I had a choice. I could remember that I love my wife, and that we generally were great together until our first child, and that I swore an oath before God to protect and cherish her, and, therefore be willing to forgive her if she repents and does what I require to put our marriage back together. Or, I could be vindictive and feel like tossing this all away, including 13 years of being with her, because of her emotional affair (I have found multiple proofs detailing what they did the one time they did meet - they kissed and hugged, but did not have sex). I chose to give her the opportunity that Christ gives me every day. Many on this board tend to be more vindictive and unforgiving. I still need her to do what I have stated, so she's not off the hook, by any means.

This board has a number of posters who are hostile to the MB method, but I have seen consistent success with those who follow the MB process correctly. There are never guarantees, but the majority of failures on that board are from those who didn't follow the steps properly, or where their spouses were serial cheaters, which my wife is not.

Hopefully, I have answered your questions and enlightened some here. The MMSL method did nothing but drive the wedge between us even further as she was needing me to stop neglecting her, not neglect her more. Only women with the right EN's will respond to the MMSL method, which is why I see so many failures here. The MB method is about finding out which EN's your spouse needs filled and tailoring what you do to them. Make sense?


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## WyshIknew

Yes thanks for the reply. I was really only curious and didn't intend an 'attitude'.

It just seems so unfair to you that she has the affair, and then you have a year/years of jumping through hoops and going through hell while she is moping around saying "poor me".

I'm probably looking at it from the wrong direction but where is the justice?

Please don't stop posting because it is good to hear another side of things.


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## falconrap

WyshIknew said:


> Yes thanks for the reply. I was really only curious and didn't intend an 'attitude'.
> 
> It just seems so unfair to you that she has the affair, and then you have a year/years of jumping through hoops and going through hell while she is moping around saying "poor me".
> 
> I'm probably looking at it from the wrong direction but where is the justice?
> 
> Please don't stop posting because it is good to hear another side of things.


Attitude may have been a harsher word than I intended. The justice comes in when she has to live a completely open and transparent life and actually fulfill all of your needs the way you need them filled, which she wasn't. SF (Sexual Fulfillment) has always been very lacking from her, as well as Affection, especially since the birth of our first child. If I end up with a marriage where my needs are fulfilled consistently, where we both learn how to negotiate and not violate POJA with independent behaviors, and we are consistently in romantic love, then this will all be worth it. Some of the best things in life come after a ton of pain and hardship. It is, in fact, why we must suffer at times. For without pain, how would we know pleasure?

I understand where you are coming from. Many wonder whether it is worth it. That is a personal choice. Unfortunately, as you may have seen in this thread, there are some here who have tried to cram their own personal choice down my throat, believing I shouldn't do certain things for her at all, or only under circumstances they would personally accept. That's fine for them, but not me. The MB program gives you a detailed plan to win the wayward back. Many here think that means the wayward settling on their plan b person. With WW's, more often than not that is not true. Once the affair is killed and they start losing love for that person, you are then going to be the one that they fall back in love with. You become plan a again, and work to stay that way.


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