# Husband gave me ultimatum, help me!



## Gloomy

hello everyone,

I am trying to regain trust in my husband. I have been given an ultimatum and to decide until Friday to either be back together and try working things out or he will move on! It is so hard for me to make a decision..after all I finally have my own apartment and life under control now. Let me start:

In short:

Background: Married for almost 3 years, both now 28 and 30 years old.
Married both in courthouse and church. First year I have been extremely happily married, I felt so alive in having a family on my own now, he pretended so but apparently was not...

Problem: After 1 year into marriage (I was 26 and he was 28) he admitted he was curious about swinging and wouldn`t know anymore if he could live his whole life just having sex with one person. :frown2:
After many attempts from my side to find a compromise, I realized I am fully monogamous and can`t stand my husband desiring sexually someone else. It broke my heart, I felt less desired from him, my self-confidence suffered..
Because of him not getting his fantasy fulfilled, he became more and more frustrated and unhappy, even stopped having sex with me completely (claiming he can`t have sex with me unless "getting recharged" first in a swinger club) so we went to counseling for a while where I found out that he has always had tendencies into the Swinging direction but had stopped doing it when he met me cause he thought he could live without it and be the husband I wanted. 
During counseling, he said it was now a lifestyle where he feels at home and which he wanted to live, that since he only lived once he didn`t want to be unhappy all his life. He said swinging was now a part of him and he doesn`t want to suppress himself..I was shocked, couldn't understand. How can sex be more important than a marriage? To me, our sex had been good enough and he had never complained before either..He said, sex with me had felt like a duty to him after 1 year). 
He found more and more problems why I couldn't be the right one for him, but the sex problem always stuck out. I was so heartbroken as a good marriage means the world to me..

Now: We separated, each of us into our own apartments. I started to accept the situation even though it was really hard. Now, half a year later he realizes that he is miserable without me and knows he was wrong, made a mistake etc. He still is liberal towards sex with others, but because he knows I am completely against it, he says he will resign. He claims to just want to make me happy and have his family back. 
Trying to see if things can work out again between us, we hung out and also had sex which feels now even to me awful. Not sure what happened, but he became so rough in bed, and doesn't care at all about how I feel during sex. He says everything else was too boring for him and once he feels bored he doesn't want to have sex at all anymore. Great, so in half a year or so I will have a sexless marriage and I am in my 20`s!! 
He parts sex from love completely and says sex had nothing to do with love. However, he is willing to give me the sex I want, but in order to keep him happy too, he would like me to tell him during our sex about how he is having sex with another person, like a friend we both know for example. Such as: " I know how you looked at my friend Sarah the other day, and I know you wanna **** her, and rub her and bla bla bla" Basically, I have to talk him into a fantasy like this in order for him to get turned on enough to have sex with me..

I dont know if I can do this all the time though. It makes me feel like I am just a plastic doll..and not really the one he wants to have sex with?! He now claims however apart from that, that he wants to try to be a good husband and will make his family his number 1 priority, which I am happy about, but remembering our counseling sessions I don't know if I can trust in him staying happy in our monogamous marriage for the rest of our lives. I don`t know if I can believe his good intentions..
Last year, he had still said how this was a huge part of him, he feels at home with swingers and naked people etc..otherwise he would live his life unhappily and frustrated.. 
Omg, I have made him wait for my decision since mid of summer and now he made me an ultimatum to either decide by Friday if I want to give us another chance or not. Otherwise he will start over and end things between us completely (which means divorce!)..I just want to have a happy family and a happy husband..I still love him but I am worried that if I give him another chance he will bring back the Swinger topic in 10 years cause he realized he cant live monogamous, and I have to go through hell again..I am also worried that if I don`t say yes to getting back together and work on our marriage, that he would really have changed to being happy in a monogamous marriage and I turned him who I dearly love down  Getting divorced would hurt me so much, like I am losing a family member, but how can I find out if things will work out?? Help me people, what can I do?


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## aine

He's giving you ultimatums? Something wrong with this picture. I am sorry to say your are sexually incompatible, he will not change or will try to and then revert and you will be hurt all over again. You are still young and have all the time in the world to meet a man who will love and cherish you and only want monogamous sex with you. 

Your current H sounds incredibly selfish, he wants you and his cake eating also. What he is asking you to do, i.e. the fantasy talk, etc will eventually destroy your soul, (it is already beginning to), get out NOW before he destroys you. Let him meet someone who is totally ok with his activities, you are not ok with it and will never be.

You must ask for a divorce, cut all contact with him asap and move on. I know it will be painful but you do not want to wake up 10 years from now with a kid or two and a H who is 'swinging' without you or cheating on you which will definitely happen. Your H is incapable of being with just you. RUN!


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## GusPolinski

To Hell w/ his "ultimatum".

Dump him.


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## tech-novelist

Since you apparently don't have children, this is easy.
You aren't compatible with him, so you need to divorce him.


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## Woodchuck

His sex drive is low, and he thinks that he needs outside excitement to perform. He also has a very immature attitude about sex...Don't waste a lot of time trying to fix him, it could take years, and probably never happen...Move on...


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## Aunt Ava

It's time to let him go. The two of you are sexually incompatible, and that makes for a miserable marriage. With the guy it sounds like you will always have to worry that he is getting his kicks on the side. And you deserve a loving sexual partner, you definitely deserve more than being used for his sexual outlet.

It is hugely concerning that you have to give him the "fantasy talk" in order for him to get turned on enough to have sex with you. He entered the marriage under false pretenses knowing he had a proclivity for swinging etc., and is deluding himself now if he thinks he can now be fulfilled without it. 

It's heartbreaking that he feels that "regular" sex with you is boring, what a self esteem killer. I think you already know what you need to do, set yourself free.


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## Openminded

He's let you know that you will never be enough for him sexually. Over time, that will continue to wear you down more and more. You don't really want a lifetime of that. Tell him "no".

PS
Getting divorced won't hurt nearly as much as living with a man who makes it obvious that you aren't enough. Time to move on.


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## jorgegene

Man-boy or rather boy-man


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## Aremu

The fact that he is giving you an ultimatum, get back with him soon or he will move on... Rings huge alarm bells. If he genuinely felt remorseful and wanted to get back with you, make you his priority and make you happy, why the ultimatum? Why put a time frame on it. If he loves you wants to make it work he would stick around and make it work.


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## Gloomy

Thanks to all who have given me responses so far. The reason for his ultimatum is that he doesn't want to stay in a limbo. And I understand that, I have just been trying to figure out how likely it will be that he becomes very unhappy again..He says he loves me and outside of sex, he is strangely very big on cuddling and holding hands and touching each other...This all doesn`t make sense to me: Being one way, but when it comes to sex being COMPLETELY a different person?? 

He asked me a question the other day that I can`t even answer myself anymore through all this confusion that I am going through. He asked: Is love enough to make a marriage work?

I always thought YES, however now I am not sure anymore if love is enough? I thought love conquers all, isn't that what everyone always says?


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## EleGirl

Gloomy said:


> Thanks to all who have given me responses so far. The reason for his ultimatum is that he doesn't want to stay in a limbo. And I understand that, I have just been trying to figure out how likely it will be that he becomes very unhappy again..He says he loves me and outside of sex, he is strangely very big on cuddling and holding hands and touching each other...This all doesn`t make sense to me: Being one way, but when it comes to sex being COMPLETELY a different person??
> 
> He asked me a question the other day that I can`t even answer myself anymore through all this confusion that I am going through. He asked: Is love enough to make a marriage work?
> 
> I always thought YES, however now I am not sure anymore if love is enough? I thought love conquers all, isn't that what everyone always says?


You said that when you had sex recently it was rough and that he needs for you to talk about him wanting other women. He's already bored and unhappy with sex with you. You cannot ever make this man happy sexually.

Love is not enough to make a marriage work. Other things like respect, compatibility and working together are also needed. So is a good sex life. It is good sex that helps keep a couple bonded. The kind of sex he wants pulls a couple apart. And it's extremely disrespectful to you.

You two are not sexually compatible. You need to love yourself and take care of yourself. If you don't, who will? If you don't and go back with him.. you are allowing him to destroy the very core of who you are.


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## Bobby5000

He's insecure, nasty, uncaring, manipulative, unfaithful, religiously noncompliant, violates fundamental rules of marriage, and you are ill thinking. I have a single friend who is handsome, successful but unfortunately for him, works for a drug company and is fully familiar with the various ways STD's can get transmitted. Be a good person for you to speak with.


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## brooklynAnn

Please don't choose to return to your husband. He is bored with married sex and that's why he needs the fantasies. He is build differently from you and I, we think that to love someone means that's it's just us two. In giving ourselves to our husbands we are giving our love. He has two boxes one for love and one for sex. That's is why he can be out ****ing someone else and still want to cuddle and hold hands the next day. 

He will be 100% in the future asking for swinging again. But this time you would be older and with kids. In the meantime he is going to slowly groom you to be more acceptable to his desires. He would ask you to make up fantasies, how you approach people to ask them to join you. What would you like to do if you were having group sex etc. There are books written on how to groom your partner to accepts swinging. 

In time you would lose yourself. Your morals and values would be questioned. You would be broken. Do you really want to share yourself with other people just to have sex? 

You are young. You will get over heartache. There is time for you to find a man who will love and adore you. Who would not want to share you or himself with other people. That's is where you happiness lies. On Friday, tell him it's over. Don't be suckered into his lies. Stay strong, you are worth more than this fool. This is excalty what I would advice my child to do.


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## Pkwanderer

Stop wasting time with your Husband. The world is full of better people. I know divorce hurts but sometimes surgery is better then living with pain all your life. And don't look back else you won't be able to go forward.


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## TeddieG

Gloomy said:


> T He asked: Is love enough to make a marriage work?
> 
> I always thought YES, however now I am not sure anymore if love is enough? I thought love conquers all, isn't that what everyone always says?


Oh honey, I always thought YES too, but first, you gotta be sure the person you're in it to win it with IS in love. Like everything else about marriage and relationships that I thought was "for sure," I found out that there are all kinds of reasons why in some relationships they don't, for reasons beyond the control of one or both persons in them. And the odds are stacked against you - your h has this issue that he hid from you and now wants you to accept. If you buying a house only to discover that it its foundation was crap, wouldn't you sever the relationship with your realtor? 

I agree with all the advice you've been given; spinning a fantasy so your h can have sex makes YOU do all the work (i.e., puts the responsibility of HIS sexual happiness on you), doesn't require him to deal with his issue of what healthy monogamous sex is, and eats away at your soul and your self-esteem. 

There's no win-win here. You lose, and I'm not sure he wins . . . love won't conquer that.


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## TeddieG

brooklynAnn said:


> In time you would lose yourself. Your morals and values would be questioned. You would be broken. Do you really want to share yourself with other people just to have sex?


THIS!! :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

What do YOU want and how do you want to be living 5, 10, 20 years from now?


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## chillymorn

no brainer, no kids short marriage cut your losses. I predict you will find a fine man who will cherish you.

good luck.


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## Satya

You do realize that by living apart, he's in a prime position to take the liberty of being with others? 

I hope you get STD tested.


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## Vorlon

OP, 

My heart goes out to you. I have been married for 30 years to the same women. I love her dearly but NO Love alone is NOT enough to make a marriage work. It takes hard work, trust, communication and a level of compatibility. The huge numbers of UN-happily married and divorced people will tell you that. 

You and your husband are fundamentally too far apart on a critical issue in the relationship. Its time to call it quits, cut your losses, heal and move on. If you truly love him, set him free. 

If you truly love yourself, set yourself free. 

BTW - I could not bare even the thought of my wife having sex with someone else. I do not separate love and sex the way your husband does. To me they can be different but they are interconnected. I am not nor will ever be interested in sharing or having others involved in our sex life. Its part of the intimate connection my wife and I share. If I wanted to involve others it would relegate the marriage to not much more than a FWBs. 

Be true to yourself and live well!


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## Gloomy

Thanks for every response. 
I see that the majority (or actually everyone) thinks that he eventually will want to swing in the future. That is so devastating, first of all because he is the one coming back and asking for another chance. He said that he was an idiot and now misses me and all of our photos on the wall etc...he claims he just wants to have his family back and someone who he can rely on and who is there for him. Hearing this, my first inner reaction was that I want my family back too! I want the one family back that I had before he mentioned that he was into swinging...I miss that time so much when I knew I was enough for him and could make him happy! There are good things about him, he is reliable, and outside of sex - sweet and caring to me. I know it doesn`t make sense at all..
But, as I said, when we tried getting back together then we noticed how sex didn't really work, and that whenever we did it my way (and I will carefully call it "the normal way") he didn`t get anything from it (sometimes we would have to stop in the middle of it, sometimes we weren`t even able to start..). This is so frustrating because his words were "Lets give it a real try this time!", promising that he would do anything to make us work..

I once read that people shouldn`t give sex too much importance as - sooner or later, especially when you get older- it will diminish anyways. I have been debating if I could just accept that we are sexually incompatible and keep our marriage, but how would that look like then? Eventually we would probably have an open marriage. Him having other women and me having other men. That is actually not what I imagined of a marriage. I wish I could just look over it and not care, knowing that he just needs something different in bed and live on with him. But where would that leave me? Cause I am not the type for one night stands. So I would have to get to know someone I trust first in order to have sex with that person. ....why am I even thinking about this?! This is not going to work anyways!


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## Orange_Pekoe

Gloomy said:


> hello everyone,
> 
> I am trying to regain trust in my husband. I have been given an ultimatum and to decide until Friday to either be back together and try working things out or he will move on! It is so hard for me to make a decision..after all I finally have my own apartment and life under control now. Let me start:
> 
> In short:
> 
> Background: Married for almost 3 years, both now 28 and 30 years old.
> Married both in courthouse and church. First year I have been extremely happily married, I felt so alive in having a family on my own now, he pretended so but apparently was not...
> 
> Problem: After 1 year into marriage (I was 26 and he was 28) he admitted he was curious about swinging and wouldn`t know anymore if he could live his whole life just having sex with one person. :frown2:
> After many attempts from my side to find a compromise, I realized I am fully monogamous and can`t stand my husband desiring sexually someone else. It broke my heart, I felt less desired from him, my self-confidence suffered..
> Because of him not getting his fantasy fulfilled, he became more and more frustrated and unhappy, even stopped having sex with me completely (claiming he can`t have sex with me unless "getting recharged" first in a swinger club) so we went to counseling for a while where I found out that he has always had tendencies into the Swinging direction but had stopped doing it when he met me cause he thought he could live without it and be the husband I wanted.
> During counseling, he said it was now a lifestyle where he feels at home and which he wanted to live, that since he only lived once he didn`t want to be unhappy all his life. He said swinging was now a part of him and he doesn`t want to suppress himself..I was shocked, couldn't understand. How can sex be more important than a marriage? To me, our sex had been good enough and he had never complained before either..He said, sex with me had felt like a duty to him after 1 year).
> He found more and more problems why I couldn't be the right one for him, but the sex problem always stuck out. I was so heartbroken as a good marriage means the world to me..
> 
> Now: We separated, each of us into our own apartments. I started to accept the situation even though it was really hard. Now, half a year later he realizes that he is miserable without me and knows he was wrong, made a mistake etc. He still is liberal towards sex with others, but because he knows I am completely against it, he says he will resign. He claims to just want to make me happy and have his family back.
> Trying to see if things can work out again between us, we hung out and also had sex which feels now even to me awful. Not sure what happened, but he became so rough in bed, and doesn't care at all about how I feel during sex. He says everything else was too boring for him and once he feels bored he doesn't want to have sex at all anymore. Great, so in half a year or so I will have a sexless marriage and I am in my 20`s!!
> He parts sex from love completely and says sex had nothing to do with love. However, he is willing to give me the sex I want, but in order to keep him happy too, he would like me to tell him during our sex about how he is having sex with another person, like a friend we both know for example. Such as: " I know how you looked at my friend Sarah the other day, and I know you wanna **** her, and rub her and bla bla bla" Basically, I have to talk him into a fantasy like this in order for him to get turned on enough to have sex with me..
> 
> I dont know if I can do this all the time though. It makes me feel like I am just a plastic doll..and not really the one he wants to have sex with?! He now claims however apart from that, that he wants to try to be a good husband and will make his family his number 1 priority, which I am happy about, but remembering our counseling sessions I don't know if I can trust in him staying happy in our monogamous marriage for the rest of our lives. I don`t know if I can believe his good intentions..
> Last year, he had still said how this was a huge part of him, he feels at home with swingers and naked people etc..otherwise he would live his life unhappily and frustrated..
> Omg, I have made him wait for my decision since mid of summer and now he made me an ultimatum to either decide by Friday if I want to give us another chance or not. Otherwise he will start over and end things between us completely (which means divorce!)..I just want to have a happy family and a happy husband..I still love him but I am worried that if I give him another chance he will bring back the Swinger topic in 10 years cause he realized he cant live monogamous, and I have to go through hell again..I am also worried that if I don`t say yes to getting back together and work on our marriage, that he would really have changed to being happy in a monogamous marriage and I turned him who I dearly love down  Getting divorced would hurt me so much, like I am losing a family member, but how can I find out if things will work out?? Help me people, what can I do?


Trust is the foundation of a marriage. And love, yes - but love without trust is going to destroy you. Like it was destroying me when I got back together with my husband. 

As a spouse, it is your God-given right to expect your husband to be faithful to you. He's taken that away. And not only taken it away - he's made you feel like you are the one breaking up the family.

People don't change unless they want to change for themselves. They won't change for their wife, husband or anybody else. He will only leave his "swinging" habits if he wants to, whether you are in the picture or not. This is something I learned through counselling and it's true. It sounds like your husband wants you back, and that's the only reason he claims he'll "leave his ways"...but once he has you back and feels comfortable again, the old problems will surface with a vengeance.

Be very careful.
You deserve love AND trust AND fidelity. Not love that is broken, without trust and full of insecurity and fear.


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## jorgegene

you can't always have your cake and eat it too.

he wants both. his nostalgia for his family and togetherness is understandable and i'm sure he has many good qualities, but
he has also shown you gross immaturity and that he's not really marriage material. after only months of marriage, 'he's bored????'

believe the posters here. his obsession will come back. given time and enough boredom with 'togetherness' he will obsess again.

marriage can be a very tough road and is not for the selfish or faint of heart.

marriage is not about satisfying a personal need, it's about satisfying both your needs as one. to a large extent it's about sacrifice.
once he gets that; i mean REALLY gets that, not on an intellectual level, not yes today and no tomorrow, but really understands what it means, 
then he might be ready for marriage.


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## SadSamIAm

You went for counseling and your husband says he needs to swing and your counselor didn't question this?


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## Jean5072

I am in such a similar situation and I hurt for you as I know the pain it's causing you! I wish I couldvtellbyou what to do but I'm unsure of my situation. When they love the lifestyle so much it's hard to understand. I did the lifestyle with my husband for many many years and I stopped but he wasn't willing too so I continued to allow him too and now he is in love with a girl and she is him. Yet he says he loves me too and always comes home to me. But I can not make him understand the hurt and pain that is to me. They see nothing wrong with it. If I could go back I would never have done the lifestyle at all. Super proud of you for sticking up for yourself and not giving in to the lifestyle. I know how you feel about loving your family and husband and want that you have that right. I am giving my hubby a chance to redeem himself and not see her anymore and us work on our marriage but only time will tell as its been two days since I lost it on both of them. Do you think he would do some counseling to see if he has really changed her s mind? I know it's hard to trust now and you feel helpless but hang in there our lives don't have to end because the men can't live normal lives!


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## Gloomy

SadSamIAm said:


> You went for counseling and your husband says he needs to swing and your counselor didn't question this?


She did say that there had to be a deeper problem that he is not ready to work on yet. I remember him going two or three times separately to a session, but she told me that he did not talk about it, and she couldn`t help him figure out the problem if he doesn`t want to work or talk about it. He stopped going to counseling sessions in general now because he thinks that they are damaging his career.


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## Openminded

I think most of us who have gone through divorce would say that, no, love isn't enough to make a marriage work. Many other things come into play in marriage besides love. Sexual compatibility is a key issue. He has let you know you aren't enough. Believe him. Over time, if you stay with him, that will be more and more devastating. 

As for thinking that love is enough, my ex-husband of 45 years maintained to the end of our marriage that he loved me and didn't want a divorce but that didn't stop him from cheating over a 30-year period. He may even have cheated during our entire marriage -- I'll never know for sure. You don't want that life, trust me. 

Your whole life is in front of you. Don't waste it on him.


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## Gloomy

Jean5072 said:


> I did the lifestyle with my husband for many many years and I stopped but he wasn't willing too so I continued to allow him too and now he is in love with a girl and she is him. Yet he says he loves me too and always comes home to me.


This would be my nightmare and deep down this is exactly what I am scared of! I feel so sorry this really happened to you. So even though it was just about sex, he still fell in love with another person....I think I will let him go before something like this happens to me too.


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## Jean5072

If I was like you and already on my own and established I wouldn't take the chance. If he truly loves you he will prove it. I'm giving my hunby the chance to prove it but we wasn't living separate yet. I wish you luck wish I had the answers


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## Gloomy

Oh man..I have been thinking about this the whole time now. I am so sad about all this, I remember so many nice times between us. It is so hard to divorce someone you actually love  I feel I am the only one who has to face a divorce where both spouses still love each other. Am I? If not then I would like to hear from someone who has already been in the situation.


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## Riptide

He is also probably a sex addict. Run and don't look back. A friend of ours has a husband who is a sex addict and I have seen a hopeless cycle where he swears he will reform only to keep cheating. She leaves, takes him back and the cycle repeats. You deserve better. Do yourself a favour move on and find happiness elsewhere. You are still young


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## nodeal

Get out and move on. That's not a marriage.


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## Riptide

Gloomy said:


> Oh man..I have been thinking about this the whole time now. I am so sad about all this, I remember so many nice times between us. It is so hard to divorce someone you actually love  I feel I am the only one who has to face a divorce where both spouses still love each other. Am I? If not then I would like to hear from someone who has already been in the situation.


Be very careful of this. In the case of a friend of ours whose husband is a sex addict, she leaves when he gets exposed for cheating, shows her how much he loves her, she takes him back and they seemingly do well....for a while. He then goes back to his whoring ways. This cycle has repeated at least 4x in the 8 years we have known them.


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## VeryHurt

Vorlon said:


> OP,
> 
> My heart goes out to you. I have been married for 30 years to the same women. I love her dearly but NO Love alone is NOT enough to make a marriage work. It takes hard work, trust, communication and a level of compatibility. The huge numbers of UN-happily married and divorced people will tell you that.
> 
> You and your husband are fundamentally too far apart on a critical issue in the relationship. Its time to call it quits, cut your losses, heal and move on. If you truly love him, set him free.
> 
> If you truly love yourself, set yourself free.
> 
> BTW - I could not bare even the thought of my wife having sex with someone else. I do not separate love and sex the way your husband does. To me they can be different but they are interconnected. I am not nor will ever be interested in sharing or having others involved in our sex life. Its part of the intimate connection my wife and I share. If I wanted to involve others it would relegate the marriage to not much more than a FWBs.
> 
> Be true to yourself and live well!


Your wife is one lucky woman!


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## Spotthedeaddog

Gloomy said:


> shocked, couldn't understand. How can sex be more important than a marriage?


Just what constitutes a marriage?

I would like to know. could you get a list - both yours and his, as I'd like to know. I hear it is more than just an exchange of a piece of jewelry.....

As a polyamorous person (which is quite different from swinging, but can involve multiple partners). It would be a matter of working out what your husbands attraction to Swinging is.

A happily married female friend of mine likes swinging because it means she can have some [sexual] girlfriends, and explore that side of herself.

A male friend of mine likes it because he gets a real kick from watching other men enjoy his wife, and of watching her with them. And they can do this in swinging places with much lower risk of loosing their partner but that is a major mindset that they have to get right in both of their heads before they join.

Which is the next step - the swinging is where they go for sex. sometimes sex with toys and rooms already set up. sometimes it's just the openness of the sexuality which some people find relaxing and destressing - others find the taboo and secrecy of secret cvlubs and elite organisations as a powerful erotic motivation.
However there is always the "available" and "no commitment" aspect which runs throughout the scene - sure privacy and secrecy have to be maintained (and it can be amusingt when you find out later in town, just who "knows" who... ; ) ).

Also in some of the swinging areas, it is an opportunity to connect with homosexual, especially homosexuality via proxy, and _very_ much so for people who are not at the ends of the Kinsey scale (and thus don't really have a closet to come out of as, as they find it stimulating but not "fascinating" as when one finds ones' SO).

But do be paranoid about disease and unsafe behaviors.

He will have to explore what he finds so stimulating about the scene, and I'd recommend an open minded counsellor just to find that out about himself before even considering taking him back.
At the moment, even if he commits; he will want to go back - and from what you say about your interests that would hurt you. So unless you can find a way to satisfy his needs, he will always require distraction or feel frustrated, until he gets over whatever stimulates him about it. It could be something as simple, as having other women available makes him feel more of a stud, more alpha; or he could be gay. Without finding what stimulates him, neither of you will find a shared answer.


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## Gloomy

What constitutes a marriage for me is:
-Respect and deep love for one another
-Knowing you can rely on the other 100%
-Going through good and bad times but always together
-Making the spouse your priority number 1
....and to me faithfulness is a given.

For him, I have to ask again, but I know he values an equal partner who is as hard working as he is, a big career person you could say. Not sure how to call it, but to him marriage means that both work as much as they can in order to have a very high-end lifestyle together...


I asked him already what it is that he likes about swinging. He said it was "lust" that turns him on over there..I don`t understand that either, as if I didn`t desire him..I have always desired him.


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## Riptide

Gloomy - so would you say that out of those bullet points that constitute a marriage that your husband fulfills one or any of these? 

I can't say I admire your husbands value of a marriage or partner where the expectation of having to work hard for a high end lifestyle or gets lost in selfish lust. He seems rather self absorbed. Would that be a fair assessment? and if so is that what you want in a partner? As a loving wife that shows affection and carnal desire for your husband, it is inexcusable that he should go elsewhere. Just my two cents


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## ThreeStrikes

Gloomy,

It sounds like you are in love with the* ideal* version of your husband, but not the *real* version.

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

He has shown you what he is. Ignore his words, watch his actions.

Your H's refusal to tackle his issues in IC is very telling.

IMO, he's not marriage material.


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## Evinrude58

This is stupid. OF course you should divorce him. Why is there even a question?
Divorce him, divorce him, divorce him.

Yes, he'll be back begging, no you shouldn't let him back in. Move on, never look back. This husband of yours has psychological problems that will never be solved. If he truly loved you, he would not even consider sharing you with anyone, and wouldn't expect you to be able to bear sharing him. Or am I not fully understanding this "swinging" thing. 

I'm kind of sad for you that you would even consider staying married to this guy.


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## Gloomy

Thanks everyone,

you are all right. The only reason why I have been considering this is because he said he wanted to give our marriage a real chance, and would resign to his swinging fantasy. He said he had done a couple of things wrong in the past and knows now that he has to put his family his number 1 priority...Everything sounded so positive considering what we had been through before. And I thought that when one`s husband comes to his senses and asks for another chance you should give him one, because he isn't just a boyfriend but your husband. That is the whole reason why I have been considering it. 
But I guess my case is different(?)


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## Keepin-my-head-up

spotthedeaddog said:


> Just what constitutes a marriage?
> 
> I would like to know. could you get a list - both yours and his, as I'd like to know. I hear it is more than just an exchange of a piece of jewelry.....
> 
> As a polyamorous person (which is quite different from swinging, but can involve multiple partners). It would be a matter of working out what your husbands attraction to Swinging is.
> 
> A happily married female friend of mine likes swinging because it means she can have some [sexual] girlfriends, and explore that side of herself.
> 
> A male friend of mine likes it because he gets a real kick from watching other men enjoy his wife, and of watching her with them. And they can do this in swinging places with much lower risk of loosing their partner but that is a major mindset that they have to get right in both of their heads before they join.
> 
> Which is the next step - the swinging is where they go for sex. sometimes sex with toys and rooms already set up. sometimes it's just the openness of the sexuality which some people find relaxing and destressing - others find the taboo and secrecy of secret cvlubs and elite organisations as a powerful erotic motivation.
> However there is always the "available" and "no commitment" aspect which runs throughout the scene - sure privacy and secrecy have to be maintained (and it can be amusingt when you find out later in town, just who "knows" who... ; ) ).
> 
> Also in some of the swinging areas, it is an opportunity to connect with homosexual, especially homosexuality via proxy, and _very_ much so for people who are not at the ends of the Kinsey scale (and thus don't really have a closet to come out of as, as they find it stimulating but not "fascinating" as when one finds ones' SO).
> 
> But do be paranoid about disease and unsafe behaviors.
> 
> He will have to explore what he finds so stimulating about the scene, and I'd recommend an open minded counsellor just to find that out about himself before even considering taking him back.
> At the moment, even if he commits; he will want to go back - and from what you say about your interests that would hurt you. So unless you can find a way to satisfy his needs, he will always require distraction or feel frustrated, until he gets over whatever stimulates him about it. It could be something as simple, as having other women available makes him feel more of a stud, more alpha; or he could be gay. Without finding what stimulates him, neither of you will find a shared answer.


Love this post!
For her tho, she cannot be a swinger and that is an important part of what SHE defines marriage as.
He doesn't.
No right or wrong.
Well, other than he should have told her he was a swinger before they got married. 
The few swingers I know say that openness is a big part of the lifestyle.

So, counselor or no counselor, it boils down to one of them will have to change their way of life as far as sex goes.
He sounds like he cannot.
Which is understandable considering some people cannot or do not want to be monogamous.
He sounds like a good guy in other areas, but not in fidelity.

So if she values monogamy and he values the opposite, one of them will be in an unhappy marriage.
They love each other enough that they should set each other free is what I think


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## Bibi1031

Your case is not that different. Your husbands other woman is the swinging life style. Some wondering husbands other woman can be booze, drugs, porn etc. they all kill marriages.


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## turnera

Gloomy said:


> What constitutes a marriage for me is:
> -Respect and deep love for one another


Gloomy, "deep love" is just that - loving and wanting ONLY that person. That person completes you. That person makes you so happy that you can't even conceive of wanting more.

Your husband has a mental problem and unless he dedicates to long-term therapy to dig deep down enough to figure out where the swinging thing comes from, he will NEVER be a good partner for anyone.

You are just incompatible. You can love someone and still not belong together.

And I suspect he doesn't miss and love YOU. He misses HOME.


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## brooklynAnn

Gloomy said:


> Thanks everyone,
> 
> you are all right. The only reason why I have been considering this is because he said he wanted to give our marriage a real chance, and would resign to his swinging fantasy. He said he had done a couple of things wrong in the past and knows now that he has to put his family his number 1 priority...Everything sounded so positive considering what we had been through before. And I thought that when one`s husband comes to his senses and asks for another chance you should give him one, because he isn't just a boyfriend but your husband. That is the whole reason why I have been considering it.
> But I guess my case is different(?)



No. Your case is not different. Only you can make the decision to stay married. We can all give our advice based on our experiences and thoughts but we can't drag you to file for divorce. 

IF you want to give it another try and to give him another chance that is in your right. We all have to make mistakes and fall before we can really learn. We are in the mind set of trying to keep you from future pain and heartache. That is our only intend and purpose. 

But if you want to go back to him, do so in a position of power. You let him know what you expect from your marriage and him. You set your boundaries and let him know what they are. You might want to write them up and give them to him to sign. So, that, he cannot come back and say you didn't explain what you needed. Then, you take things from there.

BTW, I just read your post to my H and he said for you to run. No kids and you are young. Find someone else who would adore you. Your husband should not want to have sex with other people and expose you to sex with other people. When a man loves a woman, he does not want to share her with others. Sex is between him and his wife, it brings closeness and keep you connected. It helps to create bonds and trust. It makes love grow stronger. My H is a simple man but he knows what love for his wife and family means. This is just his opinion from a H's POV.

I wish you well in what ever you choose.


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## Gloomy

Thank you, I think it becomes clearer and clearer to me what I have to do..
I have really tried to do everything right in my marriage, and I still can`t understand where I failed so things would turn out the way they are now. Or at least thinking back, I can`t find anything in particular that I did so horribly wrong that my husband doesn`t appreciate our marriage as much as I do and is the way he is now. 
Sometimes he tells me I wouldn`t accept him the way he is. I know as a spouse you should accept your partner the way he is; I find it unfair that he keeps saying this because I DO want to accept him the way he is, but how am I supposed to accept something that is not morally correct to me.

I mean, when I ask him to promise me (if I did give him a chance) to never leave me again, he says he prefers not to promise something which he already failed in.. Comments like these don`t exactly help me trusting again.

So I guess there is nothing more to do.


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## Riptide

Gloomy - that is not a good sign that he expects you to accept him the way he is as it pertains to his swinging. It sounds like he is trying to convince you he can change but I fear that this might be just a temporary ploy to get you to stay. I could be wrong but I have seen this before with a friend of mine. If you cannot accept what is morally, unethically and totally disrespectful to you as his wife and a person, you should not feel guilty in moving on. 

I agree, he can't even commit to promise he won't leave you again and that is in the face of you considering walking out on him. That is a very disconcerting. I am sorry that you are in this position but it seems you have little choice to either move on or accept his cheating ways.


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## Evinrude58

Gloomy said:


> Thank you, I think it becomes clearer and clearer to me what I have to do..
> I have really tried to do everything right in my marriage, and I still can`t understand where I failed so things would turn out the way they are now. Or at least thinking back, I can`t find anything in particular that I did so horribly wrong that my husband doesn`t appreciate our marriage as much as I do and is the way he is now.
> Sometimes he tells me I wouldn`t accept him the way he is. I know as a spouse you should accept your partner the way he is; I find it unfair that he keeps saying this because I DO want to accept him the way he is, but how am I supposed to accept something that is not morally correct to me.
> 
> *I mean, when I ask him to promise me (if I did give him a chance) to never leave me again, he says he prefers not to promise something which he already failed in.. Comments like these don`t exactly help me trusting again.*
> 
> So I guess there is nothing more to do.


What he's really saying there, is that he knows da** well that he's going to do it again. Plain and simple. I know it's hard to let go---believe me, I DO!!!!, but you have to let this guy go before he gives you a life-changing disease from his bad behavior. STD's are no trivial matter. That swinging stuff is a recipe for disaster in one's life. I got sick at my stomach from thinking about my ex-wife doing the things she was doing. That should be a normal reaction to a normal man thinking about his wife having sex with another man.
You are sooooooooooo needing to divorce this person. This will never work out, and your'e just wasting time you could be spending with a real person who truly loves you. 
My suspicion is that there are other significant areas that he has problems with, if "swinging" doesn't turn his stomach.


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## brooklynAnn

You did nothing wrong in your marriage. You married a man who fooled you into thinking he was normal. Now he is trying to guilt you into accepting him and his live style. 

When you married him, you thought you were getting just him. You were not expecting his numerous partners. So, he pulled a bait and switch with you and is still trying to you guilt you into accepting his life style.

He has no intention of changing. If you stay, he will always make demands for you to join him, because he can't live with having sex with just you. You are trying to change him and not give what makes him happy. You are being selfish. You don't love him enough. These are going to be what he will say to you.

Be smart. Stick to your morals. Don't change. Don't give in to him.


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## BetrayedDad

Your "husband's" a fvcking pig and a creeper. Run straight for the hills. Stop by a doctors office on the way and run a full battery of STD tests. Seriously, why are you even considering this? Go find a nice guy for heavens sake. They are a dime a dozen. Have some self respect.


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## NotEasy

Gloomy, I agree with everyone else here, RUN.

You don't seem to be running, which is your right. We all get to make our own choices and our own mistakes. 

What TAM is great at is helping people explore their choices. So consider your list of what constitues a marriage:




Gloomy said:


> What constitutes a marriage for me is:
> -Respect and deep love for one another
> -Knowing you can rely on the other 100%
> -Going through good and bad times but always together
> -Making the spouse your priority number 1
> ....and to me faithfulness is a given.


Seems like a good list to me. Which ones of those do you think he meets?
Sorry for being brutal, but,
- Respect : he hid his swinging life style until after marriage
- deep love : he rates his life style choice as more important than you
- rely on the other 100% : see above
- always together : already not the case
- spouse your priority # 1: not more important to him than his life style

Or look at it this way. He knows his love of swinging upsets/alarms/disgusts you. Yet he avoids the issue in counselling. He is protecting his number 1 priority, his life style. You must understand what is behind this drive of his before you can safely consider moving back with him. But he doesn't want to discuss it.



Gloomy said:


> For him, I have to ask again, but I know he values an equal partner who is as hard working as he is, a big career person you could say. Not sure how to call it, but to him marriage means that both work as much as they can in order to have a very high-end lifestyle together...


His definition is so different to your list. 
I don't think he defined a marriage, rather a lifestyle. 
I don't see how you two can build a marriage using such different views. 

As others have said, he isn't marriage material, RUN.


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## Gloomy

What happened so far is that Friday, on the day of the ultimatum, he surprisingly didn`t speak about the ultimatum at all. I already knew what I was going to say if he had asked for my decision. 
However, Saturday we didn`t contact each other at all, and Sunday (today) we haven`t talked either. I am guessing he "moved on" just as he had said he would. I prefer not to talk about that face to face anyway, because that is a lot harder for me and I don't want to get weak.


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## turnera

So...you're moving on, right?


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## Marc878

Look, there are better out there for you.

Move on like yesterday!!!!


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## Gloomy

Yes, I am moving on 

Now he just texted out of the blue, complaining that I haven't called all weekend and that I wouldn`t care about him - that`s when I usually start to feel bad for him and doubt my actions, but this time I will intentionally try to not get influenced by that phrase.....


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## turnera

"Nope, don't care about you any more. You Love Busted all my care away."


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## Riptide

Yes Gloomy Stick to your guns here. He will very likely try to manipulate you. The only chance you have to reconcile, if that is even on your agenda, is for him to actually see and feel you moving on. Only then, he will decide that he needs to change or will change, or his true selfish nature will be exposed further and he will continue to sleep with other women to self medicate which will only help serve you in knowing that you made the right decision. Do not go half way on this as if he gets the idea that he can win you back with some self pity, he will manipulate you to his benefit...not yours. Stay strong, this won't be easy


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## Gloomy

Thank you all for your answers.
Even though it is clear now that I will have to get divorced, I feel really weird all suddenly..I just can't understand how something like this can even happen? Why on earth does he even feel that he needs sex with other women?? And be so disrespectful and suggest that to me? Other men don`t do this to their wives, why he?! I don`t understand it, I wouldn't just get married for the heck of it, getting married was a BIG thing for me! 
It is hard to describe my exact feeling, but I feel so sorry for US, for our future plans, for our memories which we already have...for everything we have shared so far. I really would have done everything for him and I loved him genuinely.. I never would have left him for anyone else. I gave everything for this marriage to be a happy marriage and for him to be a happy husband. I can`t seem to understand HOW and WHY this happened to us?? Is swinging an addiction? I can`t understand it....at all. Should I see this like "being gay" and not be able to help it? Or is it just a selfish way of his? He sometimes would make it sound like this would be something he feels home at...so I wonder if it is like being gay or something..

I feel so confused..It is hard for me to understand why this happened to my marriage which I really worked hard for. I am easy-going and easy to live with - If I had been a wife with anger issues or somewhat complicated I would blame it on those things..but I know I am not high maintenance...So, can anyone explain how I am supposed to see this?

I feel like I am overanalyzing my marriage and everything that happened, I can`t focus on the important things in life anymore  I need to get out of this misery and get some answers..


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## Openminded

It's normal to wonder how on earth someone you love can blow up a marriage. The simple answer is they care more about what they want than they do about the marriage or about their spouse. It's him -- not you. 

No matter how a great a wife you are, his need for other women is more important. He can't be monogamous. Many men (and women) can't. They want their marriage but they want others as well. I was married for 45 years to someone who didn't want a divorce but didn't want to permanently cut ties with the OW and that went on (under the radar) to some extent for 30 years. What he wanted (continued contact with the OW) was more important than our marriage and in his arrogance he felt entitled to both. 

Some people can't or won't change. Yes, it's very hard to move on but, believe me, it's far better than living with someone who isn't 100% committed to you.


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## Riptide

Agree with Openminded. It is not about you...at all. If you try and stay with him before or during the time where he needs to figure himself out to see if he can overcome this addiction (yes, it is an addiction and he better be looking at help) you will be in for a pile of more hurt than you are now. That is the other thing. Is he actually even looking for help? If he isn't, then that tells you of his commitment level right there.

More importantly, he will just cause you more and more pain as he fails over and over to keep his commitment to you if you choose to go back. We understand the pain you are going through now. Take this time to process things and start imagining your life down a different path....one more fulfilled and filled with happiness and security. It is out there. Unfortunately, if you decide to work this out with him, you are destined for more pain anyway so you might as well have some resolution at the end of this process and be better off for it.


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## aine

Gloomy said:


> Thanks everyone,
> 
> you are all right. The only reason why I have been considering this is because he said he wanted to give our marriage a real chance, and would resign to his swinging fantasy. He said he had done a couple of things wrong in the past and knows now that he has to put his family his number 1 priority...Everything sounded so positive considering what we had been through before. And I thought that when one`s husband comes to his senses and asks for another chance you should give him one, because he isn't just a boyfriend but your husband. That is the whole reason why I have been considering it.
> But I guess my case is different(?)


Sorry to say Gloomy but this is all sweet talk, once you start hitting a bumpy patch in your marriage (which is inevitable) you immature/self centred H will then want to find a way to sooth himself and he'll be back to either the swinging or infidelity.

Remember : when someone shows you who they are the first time, believe them (people, unless in crisis do not change much).


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