# Non-sexual touching is CRITICAL



## OOE (Mar 17, 2011)

Over the past three years I've spent a good deal of time looking back to figure out my past marriage. I want to know that I understand what was "right" and what was wrong.

I've also read a lot about relationships including dating to both prep myself for re-entering the dating world and to help figure out how to avoid the mistakes of the past.

If you research dating at all, you'll see talk about "kino" at some point ("kino escalation" or "kino ladder" are 2 things to search for if you don't have a good grasp). As I read about kino, I realized that this type of touching was the reason that sex was never an issue with us. I touched her all the time in non-sexual ways - her hands, knee/legs, back, shoulders, neck, hair and face. It's just part of who I am.

I never had to ask for sex. We had plenty of other issues, but unlike many of you, the frequency of sex never slowed for any significant period.

Compare these two scenarios to see why touch is so important to a woman being "in the mood."

1. A husband misses sex with his W. He tries harder to please her by cleaning, cooking, chores, flowers, saying ILY, etc.

She wonders what he wants from her - why else would he be doing all of this out-of-character stuff? 

Later that night he asks for sex. Now she understands what he wants and thinks, "how pathetic."

2. A husband walks in from work and touches his W's hand. As she's cooking, he puts his hand on the small of her back and talks for a bit. Sometime during the evening he brushes a bit of stray hair out of her face. As she's watching tv, he sits beside her and lightly squeezes her knee. Later when she's brushing her teeth he nuzzles her neck and runs his hand through her hair. 

Consciously, these things tell his W that he wants to be close to her. Subconsciously they tell her that he is close to her. They are also telling her that he wants her.

Later, when he pulls her close and kisses her, it's congrous with what he's been doing all night. So is foreplay and sex.

This touching isn't groping nor is it even suggestive. It's just natural light contact. Eventually it will become part of your "normal" interaction and it will make all physical interaction feel right and normal again.


-ooe


Just a side note on kino. Think back to your last encounter with a close talker. It was pretty uncomfortable, right? Moving to sex without demonstrating closeness through touch is the same thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

That is awesome!
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## IH8theFriendZone (Mar 14, 2011)

Amazing post. Thank you! My approach has been all wrong. It used to be #1. My wife could see me coming from a mile away and sometimes would unemotionally shoot me down before I could even begin my approach and it felt absolutely humiliating! My wife is a very tough one to approach. She's a busy body and very type A. It almost wouldn't shock me if throughout the day of casual touches she tells me, "Stop touching me." That pisses me off too... I know my natural reaction would be to simply walk away annoyed as hell. And yet sometimes I feel that to casually blow it off and playfully say something like, "No need to be upset sweetie," would be wuss mode (and she'd probably then have to reiterate that my constant touching her is annoying, which would then completely blow all future approaches too). I guess for me I'll have to tread lightly and build up. Overdoing it from the beginning might spell doomsday.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

This is very good:smthumbup:. I love it when my SO touches me, he usually holds my hand, and helps me with my coat, gives me lots of kisses (when we are not having sex), he does physically touch me most of the time we are near each other. 

However I also like full on sexual contact at random times without having sex (some women might not like it), for instance if he grabbed my ass or ran his hand up my leg and I love it if he messages me with something dirty or says something really dirty throughout the day. This all sets me up to be super horny and want to have sex with him a lot.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I think you perfectly described exactly how to build withstanding intimacy in the relationship that will lead to a happier, more fulfilled sex life for both the man and woman. I really do! 

When reading your post I thought...this is EXACTLY the reason my husband and I, despite major arguments and issues, always maintained a healthy sex life. It's the daily care and keeping of each other's physical connection.

Right now it is not really there in our relationship and I have been wondering why and in reading your post I realized that we have stopped all physical touch and are completely distancing ourselves from one another both physically and emotionally right now.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Interesting, very interesting. I think that would be great reading for a lot of guys who post on here.

For me personally, the doing things around the house is essential- but then I'm starting from a point of having a good sex life, but also that the work IN the home he is doing is his fair share. If he were to step it up and do more just because, I would appreciate it but it would also make me feel like he felt I wasn't doing my job properly- and I might feel like he was doing it as foreplay, and acts of service isn't my love language or my idea of foreplay!

If he were doing more because he could see I was snowed under with the kids, then I would feel loved and appreciated for the work I DO do.

The explanation of that second scenario is brilliant and makes a lot of sense.


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## OOE (Mar 17, 2011)

I agree with everything above. 

If the H doesn't also display a good mix of alpha and beta (helping around the house) actions there will be problems. But maintaining touch will help make sure sexual frustration isn't one of the problems.

And over time, this type of touching will make it natural to mix in a little more overt playful touching throughout the day.

BTW, I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure that doing this type of light touching in public is alpha.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OOE (Mar 17, 2011)

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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

OOE said:


> If the H doesn't also display a good mix of alpha and beta (helping around the house) actions there will be problems. But maintaining touch will help make sure sexual frustration isn't one of the problems.
> 
> And over time, this type of touching will make it natural to mix in a little more overt playful touching throughout the day.
> 
> ...


:iagree: 
I also agree that a good man will do what is fair around the house and make an effort so you don't end up feeling like a slave when it comes to housework, cooking etc.

I like that my SO is not afraid to be affectionate in public. he hugs me, kisses me when he opens the car door for me, and holds my hand. Very attractive qualities in a man.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

One of my earliest girlfriends helped me to learn the importance of meaningful touches. She was a much older biker woman from the club where my step father and mother hung out, but was a very pasionate woman, yet hurt by life.

My wife loves meaningful touches, like the nearly innocent touches, and I've learned her sensitive non-sexual areas. But there is a progessive side to this that really appeals to her. But, in my opinion, sex can't be the obvious goal. Connecting and making her feel loved have to be. She told our marriage counselor that the top thing that gets her in the mood is that I memorize her, and use it deliberately. For instance, touching a sensitive place on her neck to get her to turn my way. Of course, every person is different.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

WOW If only you could out compete the man up stuff. This is so on target. The alphabet stuff is fine, girly men are not sexually attractive. But being alpha and at the same time emotionally distant, non- communicative, and dismissive of a woman's need for clear and consistent non-sexual touch and attention will not get a manly man laid any more often.
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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

OOE said:


> A husband walks in from work and touches his W's hand. As she's cooking, he puts his hand on the small of her back and talks for a bit. Sometime during the evening he brushes a bit of stray hair out of her face. As she's watching tv, he sits beside her and lightly squeezes her knee. Later when she's brushing her teeth he nuzzles her neck and runs his hand through her hair.
> 
> Consciously, these things tell his W that he wants to be close to her. Subconsciously they tell her that he is close to her. They are also telling her that he wants her.
> 
> ...


 I am happy to say me & husband LIVE this every single day- now, even a little more seductive touching for us though (ha ha ) it is forplay from the time he wakes up till we lay our heads to sleep. He reaches to hold me in the middle of the night too. 

At one time though, my mind was racing many places , too BUSY to slow down, not smelling the roses of affectionate touch as much as I should have been. I do recall pushing him away at times.  He got the most when we watched our movies at night, always running his fingers though my hair- this has never changed, now my hands are much more roaming as well.  Our biggest mistake was allowing our babies to sleep in bed with us! Live & learn.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> WOW If only you could out compete the man up stuff. This is so on target. The alphabet stuff is fine, girly men are not sexually attractive. But being alpha and at the same time emotionally distant, non- communicative, and dismissive of a woman's need for clear and consistent non-sexual touch and attention will not get a manly man laid any more often.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This post makes no sense to me.

"Out compete"?

The only thing manning up involves is when this sort of thing is rejected - in the way SA describes - you know what to do about it.

Rather than get needy and whiny, you stay strong and wait.


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## Kcrat (Mar 18, 2011)

WOW! I have been contemplating my failed marriage and thinking I don't have what it takes to ever try this "delicate dance" again. It's a lot of hard work...... the intricacies and complexities of doing the right thing, in the right way, at the right time, with the right attitude, is overwhelming to me. I'm talking about everything, not just touch/intimacy. Been thinking that depending on ME may be essential, and enough. But I am off topic. Touch.........As strange as this may sound, I have been hugging, kissing, and touching my husband during our separation. We have not been intimate in over 7 years! He has obliged, and said everybody needs "human touch." I always reference a line in a movie with Jessica Lange when she began a "hot and heavy" scene with a man in the backseat of a car, and exclaimed, "I was starving and didn't even know it." I DO believe in touch not only as a prelude to sex/intimacy but as "water for life." Years ago, babies in other countries who were in orphanages were said to have perished from lack of human touch. Makes one think. Thanks for the depth and insight you all have. The level of everyone's "awareness and self reflection" is blowing me away on this forum. Wouldn't it be amazing if we could all meet some day!


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> WOW If only you could out compete the man up stuff. This is so on target. The alphabet stuff is fine, girly men are not sexually attractive. But being alpha and at the same time emotionally distant, non- communicative, and dismissive of a woman's need for clear and consistent non-sexual touch and attention will not get a manly man laid any more often.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe I'm simple, but I'm not sure that I understand this. It seems to imply that one could equate being a real alpha with be being emotionally distant. Isn't being a true alpha ultimately about getting into the head of the other people to make them want to follow? Overpowering, but only through others intentional following? It's not necessarily manipulation as much as realizing that you have to meet another person's needs to get to the end game. Most of the self-descibed alpha's who don't make connecting with people their top priority just turn out bitter and alone.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

I call all these sexual touching. They mean a lot to us! They make our heart warm, they get our bodies on fire, they draw us close to our men! 

When I am washing the vegetables, my husband comes and hugs me from behind; 
When I am typing in front of the computer, my husband comes and gives my forehead a kiss; 
When we are sitting together in the meetings, my husband puts his arm around me; 
When we walk on the street, my husband reaches out and holds my hand, 
..............................................

All of these small things mean a lot to a woman, they tell us that our men are affectionate and romantic, they send electricity to our bodies...........


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Conrad said:


> This post makes no sense to me.
> 
> "Out compete"?
> 
> ...


I'd like to see more post advocating a comprehensive, emotionally intelligent approach to complex marital problems Vs. the cookies cutter perceptive quick fixes. I must admit to being surprised that you are concerned about making sense, I find most of your posts make no sense to me, so I honestly though you did not concern yourself about making any sense whatsoever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> I'd like to see more post advocating a comprehensive, emotionally intelligent approach to complex marital problems Vs. the cookies cutter perceptive quick fixes. I must admit to being surprised that you are concerned about making sense, I find most of your posts make no sense to me, so I honestly though you did not concern yourself about making any sense whatsoever.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Always tactful.

Thanks Catherine.


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## *everafter* (Nov 7, 2010)

I love this OP. It's so true. My husband would do this and our sex life was great. Now he doesn't do this touching anymore. Just groping. He goes straight to sex and sure enough that ddoesn't really get me in the mood. I will have to show him thios.

PS. I wonder if this works for women too. If the woman touches the man like this or will the man think she wants sex right away?


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## tranquility (Mar 13, 2011)

Wow ... that OP put into words what I've been feeling for a long time. My husband and I have none of this sort of touching ... occasionally he'll hold my hand but for the vast majority of time we're just two people sharing a house. I'm not sure how we got here - we've been together 28 years and I'm only just now coming to the conclusion that we are in deep trouble. Now I'm trying to convince him of that. 

Makes me realize yet again what we've been missing all this time


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## Married&Confused (Jan 19, 2011)

all this assumes the woman has any interest in sex at all.

i was always a big non-sexual intimacy kind of guy. Cuddling, hand-holding, neck/back/leg rubs, everything you guys have described. i did it because I loved my wife and knew she enjoyed this kind of touching. it was "clear and consistent", never given with an expectation of sex.

and this kind of activity rarely resulted in sex. not immediately and not over a period of time.

ultimately I stopped. it is frustrating doing this kind of touching when your sexual needs aren't being met. it becomes all one-sided and anything that becomes one-sided isn't good for the marriage.


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## OOE (Mar 17, 2011)

I never said anything about cuddling, hand-holding, or neck/back/leg rubs. 

Giving massages and cuddling are beta actions. The touches I'm talking about are completely different. 90%+ of them are incidental.

Cuddling is great during the afterglow. 




Married&Confused said:


> i was always a big non-sexual intimacy kind of guy. Cuddling, hand-holding, neck/back/leg rubs, everything you guys have described. i did it because I loved my wife and knew she enjoyed this kind of touching. it was "clear and consistent", never given with an expectation of sex.
> 
> and this kind of activity rarely resulted in sex. not immediately and not over a period of time.
> 
> ultimately I stopped. it is frustrating doing this kind of touching when your sexual needs aren't being met. it becomes all one-sided and anything that becomes one-sided isn't good for the marriage.


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## just_a_guy (Mar 15, 2011)

OOE said:


> I never said anything about cuddling, hand-holding, or neck/back/leg rubs.
> 
> Giving massages and cuddling are beta actions. The touches I'm talking about are completely different. 90%+ of them are incidental.
> 
> Cuddling is great during the afterglow.


You did mention those things though. I suppose I might be missing something? But I don't think so. Maybe you mean more quick and subtle touches. Just enough to get their attention and nothing more.
Here's the thing though. Many men don't get to be sexual with their spouse so the little barely there touches turn to the light massages, any kind of intimate contact. Not as in sex intimate.
I have always been the type to walk by my wife and brush her back lightly. Pull her hair out of her face and grazing the side of her neck gentley before pulling my hand away.
Some women just get used to it like it's supposed to happen. The men get bitter because he feels like he's doing something special when it doesn't really mean a thing. 
The problem is, this type of thing needs to be preached more to her as opposed to him. She is losing sight of the little things that not every woman gets to experiance. But blame is 90% of the time put on the man for not holding up. "He doesn't do anything for me." So he doesn't touch you? Oh you don't let him? Because of the tension I would assume from the fact that this man is pouring love into his actions to only be told that it's expected.
Some women still believe in princesses. Yes every woman deserves this treatment undoubtably. But every man deserves to feel appreciated and loved as well. We are also emotional beings...


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Everything written in the above post is what I wanted to say. 

There are many married women out there that don't equate this type of touch to love and intimacy. Some wives just come to expect this type of behavior while offering zero intimacy in return. 

I am acutally surprised that there are so many women advocating this. My (admitted) limited experience with women have taught me that this gets me nowhere.


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## OOE (Mar 17, 2011)

First, you're both misunderstanding me.

Most of the day-to-day touching was really just a touch.

For example:


I wanted her to look at something - I touched her arm.
She'd be standing at the kitchen counter and I'd want in the drawer she was in front of, so I'd nudge her to the side with my hand on her hip.
She'd come in from outside on a breezy day and I'd move an unruly curl from her face.
Pat her leg once as we'd talk in the car...
Bump hips playfully when she was "in my way" in the hall or bathroom or wherever...
Touch her back as I'd guide her through a crowd...
and tons more touches just like these.

I think that _because_ I did these things all the time, she didn't think that it was strange or get suspicious when I'd touch her in a more overt way.

Secondly, I'm not saying that if you do steps 1 through 6c, you'll start getting laid. This wasn't meant to be a "plan" to follow to get more sex. If you do this stuff more, or even all the time, it won't mean your W will want to have sex every night. It _will_ make it congruent when you touch her in other ways.

Women are responding because they agree that this type of touching = closeness.

If you're doing this stuff all the time and your W immediately rejects you when you progress to any suggestive touching, you should re-read Conrad's response above:



> The only thing manning up involves is when this sort of thing is rejected - in the way SA describes - you know what to do about it.
> 
> Rather than get needy and whiny, you stay strong and wait.


(and even act unfazed.)


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## Vacadeluz (Mar 4, 2011)

*everafter* said:


> I love this OP. It's so true. My husband would do this and our sex life was great. Now he doesn't do this touching anymore. Just groping. He goes straight to sex and sure enough that ddoesn't really get me in the mood. I will have to show him thios.
> 
> PS. I wonder if this works for women too. If the woman touches the man like this or will the man think she wants sex right away?


I wish my wife would touch me like this. Touching and affection is my primary LL. I touch my wife constanly in the manners described in the OP, but to no avail. Fact of the matter is, the only time my wife ever touches me in any manner is when she wants sex.

Even simple things like goodbye kisses when she goes to work or I do have to be initiated by me or it doesn't happen.


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## Crankshaw (Jan 12, 2011)

OOE, brilliant post, and oh so true, if only I had known earlier


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

to the original post, i actually took this advice a few years back after reading similar stuff on here. i tried this approach for months and months, touching without any pressure for her to return my advances. it didnt help. might help others though.

my wife loves me, she is just plain LD


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## IH8theFriendZone (Mar 14, 2011)

okeydokie said:


> to the original post, i actually took this advice a few years back after reading similar stuff on here. i tried this approach for months and months, touching without any pressure for her to return my advances. it didnt help. might help others though.
> 
> my wife loves me, she is just plain LD


Sadly, I see this happening to me when I employ the regular physicalities that should easily lead into something sexual and parallel your activities for the day. I totally get that when you scrub the bathroom and clean up the kitchen and other things that you normally wouldn't do and then move in for sex it sends a contradictory message that the only reason you've been doing those things is for sex. And that if you are confident, stoic, reserved, yet gently physical and attentive to her throughout the day over the days/weeks, and then move in for sex, it all seems so much more in line.
However, I can totally see that approach having no affect on my wife. I can see her basically getting annoyed with me even touching her, which is why I need to start slow and work up rather than touch her 50 times a day.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

okeydokie said:


> to the original post, i actually took this advice a few years back after reading similar stuff on here. i tried this approach for months and months, touching without any pressure for her to return my advances. it didnt help. might help others though.
> 
> my wife loves me, she is just plain LD


I'm only throwing this out to spur more discussion of what might be going on in a case like this, so don't take it as me claiming to have this mastered.

I just wonder if you threw the touching on top of a nice guy syndrome, if it could just backfire with some women.

My wife would normally be very headstrong. As a dominant type of personality, I can't help but try to stay on top of it (not literally). She claims that I often keep her on edge, but its really just a dynamic that has developed to keep her from pushing away. Lots of ways of doing it. Accusing her of checking me out when I catch her watching me, which turns into a good natured argument. Fixing something instantly that she's been working on for a while, telling her just to get a man's help the next time, etc. Makes her stew, but very receptive sexually.

Another thing - when I do things around the house, like going above my share of the chores, our premarital counselor warned me never to try to let this get linked to sex. Makes my wife feel like I'm trying to buy her love - don't want to go there. 

Don't know - just wonder if the whole thing has to be a component of the larger dynamic that is needed


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## just_a_guy (Mar 15, 2011)

I agree with the above.
I think what happens is that the man or even wants has wanted sex for so long that every move that the 'deprived' person makes would automatically get linked to wanting something. When in fact, this person is just trying to make things better as a whole so that guards can come down and comfort levels can go up. 
My wife used to think that I worked so hard around the house because I wanted something or that since not having sex for so long I thought about it all of the time. In reality, I thought of it very little. I wasn't trying to get sex from her ever. I waited. It took a while for it to catch on that I wasn't trying so hard to get rewarded. I was trying so hard because my wife was feeling overwhelmed. Stressed from work and stressed from her thinking falsely of my intents. 
It's a fine line to walk if you have already passed it so be consistent and make sure that he or she knows that it isn't for the sex and intimacy. It's for making him/her comfortable, less stressed or tired.
It'll take time but it will also get noticed. And even if sex doesn't return right away, you'll notice HUGE positive strides in your relationship.


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## Wrench (Mar 21, 2011)

Good tips OOE, I've been trying it for the first time and she's totally at ease by the end of the day. That has never happened, she doesn't usually like me touching her because I'm a bit of a groper

In my defense I've been starved for non-sexual touching for 20 years! I've sat in traffic and told her how jealous I am of the guy in front of us that's getting his neck rubbed by his wife, she just laughs and says "yeah, but he's probably not getting turned on like you do".

Now that I know that guys secret I'm set, heh heh...


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## madimoff (Feb 17, 2010)

Pandakiss said:


> how would you trust and feel secure with someone who wouldnt touch you?? if you wont hold my hand or brush my arm or at least put your arm around me once in a while...
> 
> i dont want full on PDA, but if i get the feeling you couldnt possibly touch me with a ten foot pole...i cant see wanting to have really inimate sex...
> 
> ...


My 2cents of agreeing wholeheartedly with the general tone of the thread, but YES to the comment above, yes yes yes I'd love to be more demonstrative, but - my OH is (a) a smoker (b) a bit protective of his personal space & not welcoming of spontaneity - both of which kill 'sweet little non-sexual touches' (and yes,smoking is relevant - who actively wants to go in for a stroke, hug, light nuzzle or whatever only to fight for space & attention with a lit cigarette?) OK I might get shot down in flames (!) for that one but it's as I see it and it affects US which is all that matters to me but he can't see it!


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Halien said:


> Another thing - when I do things around the house, like going above my share of the chores, our premarital counselor warned me never to try to let this get linked to sex. Makes my wife feel like I'm trying to buy her love - don't want to go there.
> 
> Don't know - just wonder if the whole thing has to be a component of the larger dynamic that is needed


This is so on target. 

This one of biggest problem in marriages these days in the unequal distribution of labor. Even some men who agree at the beginning of the relationship to split work 50:50, often need to be asked repeatedly to do their part. Also some men are resentful of having to do anything. Moreover, if he thinks he should get the reward of sex because he is "helping" then that is even worse.

This is how I see it, when two adults live in the same domicile and have kids, they are both responsible for the maintenance of the the place where they both live and the care of children that they both decided to bring into the world. This is especially true if the woman works. 

To have an able bodied adult in the same house, who claims to love and want to be intimate, shirk his duties, engenders deep resentment and anger.I think this arrangement makes the man seem child-like, immature not masterful and in charge. He is one more person that saps the energy. 

Resentment + anger + exhaustion + childlike behavior = loss of sexual attraction and even repulsion.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

When one crosses into the area of judging how their partner is spending their time, deep resentments can surface.

Always quite easy to conclude what someone else should - or should not be - doing.

Men who think pushing a vacuum will make them more attractive may as well pre-emptively sign up for a user account here.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Conrad said:


> When one crosses into the area of judging how their partner is spending their time, deep resentments can surface.
> 
> Always quite easy to conclude what someone else should - or should not be - doing.
> 
> Men who think pushing a vacuum will make them more attractive may as well pre-emptively sign up for a user account here.


Have you noticed that society in general seems to encourage us to believe that the way to a wife's heart is through helping with the chores, though, or through being less alpha in our approach to child rearing? Maybe I'm wrong, but there are not a lot of societal signals out there telling guys that mopping isn't the way to get our sexual needs met.

I never had parents who talked to us about being married. Spent a good part of my childhood in reform schools, so when I fell head over heels for a girl from a normal square background, I started at ground zero under a pre-marital counselor who was half comanchee, and all man. Every session, we had to watch snippets from tv shows and movies, and then he used these to teach us more about 'real life marriages'.


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## lime (Jul 3, 2010)

Conrad said:


> When one crosses into the area of judging how their partner is spending their time, deep resentments can surface.
> 
> Always quite easy to conclude what someone else should - or should not be - doing.
> 
> Men who think pushing a vacuum will make them more attractive may as well pre-emptively sign up for a user account here.


If they're pushing a vacuum while showing off a six pack, talking in a foreign accent, and smoking a cigar, I bet they'll be signing up to _help_ other posters. 

I think the key to chores is that the man should just get over it and do a few without being asked/nagged. I appreciate that my SO just washes the dishes when he sees fit--I never have to ask, whine, nag, withhold sex, or any other obnoxious tactics. I respect that he's a grown-up and is capable of doing things on his own time. He also doesn't act like chores are difficult--he's a MAN, it's not like he's going to whine about having to sweep the floor because it's just too difficult to handle. I think a lot of men can't simply do a chore and then walk away--constantly seeking praise, hoping for scraps of affection, or feeling all proud and mighty for taking out the trash aren't behaviors exhibited by competent adult men. That said, a lot of women need to preemptively stop the nagging to help this behavior along.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Halien said:


> Have you noticed that society in general seems to encourage us to believe that the way to a wife's heart is through helping with the chores, though, or through being less alpha in our approach to child rearing? Maybe I'm wrong, but there are not a lot of societal signals out there telling guys that mopping isn't the way to get our sexual needs met.
> 
> I never had parents who talked to us about being married. Spent a good part of my childhood in reform schools, so when I fell head over heels for a girl from a normal square background, I started at ground zero under a pre-marital counselor who was half comanchee, and all man. Every session, we had to watch snippets from tv shows and movies, and then he used these to teach us more about 'real life marriages'.


The popular culture is chock full of that propaganda.

Be glad for your mentor.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

Catherine602 said:


> This is so on target.
> 
> This one of biggest problem in marriages these days in the unequal distribution of sexual interest. Even some women who agree at the beginning of the relationship to split work on sex 50:50, often need to be asked repeatedly to do their part. Also some women are resentful of having to do anything. Moreover, if she thinks she should get the reward of labor because she is "helping" then that is even worse.


 for me its a chicken or egg scenario, which came along first.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

okeydokie said:


> for me its a chicken or egg scenario, which came along first.


This is true. This is what happened to my husband and I. In hind site I can see what went wrong but I could not see it then. This may seem off topic but as we are talking about domestic chores and how who does what affects the way each party feels post it. 

When we had the first baby, things started to slowly go south. We were very happy before the 1st baby, together for 5 yrs and we carefully considered having a child and decided it was a good time. 

At first I did not notice a difference in my husband, it was rather subtle at first and then more obvious. He became less helpful in the activities of daily living and more emotionally distant. I did what seemed like 70% of the work which was a change from the pre-baby days. 

When I think about it now, I know why - I fell in love with the baby, and lavished him with all of my attention. What a change that must have been for my husband. Before the baby, he was the one who got all of my attention. Then suddenly he got very little, I was too exhausted and the rest of the time I just wanted to look at my new little baby. 

When I think of it now, it no wonder that he did not want to be involved in the day to day domestic drudgery, before the baby we were invested in each other and did things together. After the baby he had to do much on his own with very lille emotional investment from me. 

I don't know if this is common but in my case I think that the domestic stuff started going haywire when the emotional investment in my husband was subverted by babies. His investment in the day to day operation may have become painful in that he may have felt like an outsider who was there for the amount of money and labor he can bring. Just a thought. 

We are recovering very nicely but he still does not talk about what happened during those years. When I bring up the fact that I think I made him feel forgotten, he will not say. I think men are made to feel ashamed when this happens. I just wish that I knew sooner. 

I wonder if there are other women who have identified this as a problem and solved the domestic divide by realizing that their husbands were pushed aside emotionally when children came along.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

Catherine602 said:


> This is true. This is what happened to my husband and I. In hind site I can see what went wrong but I could not see it then. This may seem off topic but as we are talking about domestic chores and how who does what affects the way each party feels post it.
> 
> When we had the first baby, things started to slowly go south. We were very happy before the 1st baby, together for 5 yrs and we carefully considered having a child and decided it was a good time.
> 
> ...


i fully understand the baby thing, and i feel like i was very supportive during that time. it was very hard work for her, and i, but i knew it was harder on her by a long shot. but that was 10 years ago, and we havent gotten back to us. thats why i love this site and try to employ alot of what i read on here, but it just isnt getting through.


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Men who think pushing a vacuum will make them more attractive may as well pre-emptively sign up for a user account here.


Agreed. I push a vacuum because I don't like dirty floors and I do more work from home than my wife. I trim the hedges because I don't like unkept landscaping. It only makes me more attractive if I do it without my shirt on and the neighbor watches.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

less_disgruntled said:


> Agreed. I push a vacuum because I don't like dirty floors and I do more work from home than my wife. I trim the hedges because I don't like unkept landscaping. It only makes me more attractive if I do it without my shirt on and the neighbor watches.


Okay, sorry for diverting the thread, but couldn't resist. The last four years are the first time my wife and I haven't lived on the southern coast. I always did the yard chores shirtless to keep a tan. Now, I live 1200 miles north. One day, my wife got home from shopping and informed me that I had to start wearing a shirt.

She said that she was standing in line at the grocery store, and two women were talking about the guy with the six pack who just moved in ____ Drive. The lady was telling her friend to drive by at 10:00 AM or so when he cut the grass. When my wife told them that was her husband, they nearly had a stroke. I needed the ego boost, frankly. Seriously, the realtor told us there was not that much traffic.... I think its because the guys in the neighborhood tend to look like they were grain fed growing up.


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