# how society/religion inhibits women.



## lifeisbetterthanalternat (Apr 24, 2012)

OK so some background...my wife had long denied her vibrator use until she was basically caught red handed. I had previously tried to make her comfortable that is was OK, I even told her I wanted to watch her etc. She is OK with this now and we have even used toys together. She also had admitted in the past (usually after a couple drinks) to thinking that watching porn together would be and other racy things "hot". Later she seemed less than receptive to these things. 

We were recently discussing religion (after a couple glasses of wine) and she indicated one of the problems she had with Catholoisism is the catholic guilt thing. I should point out that she went to a catholic elementary school where you may know, teach with allot of guilt and shame. I think this impacts women particularly hard especially as it relates to sex. 

I have since asked her how she thinks that catholic guilt has effected her and she now says it is not important. It would seem that she is somehow effected by this but, seems to be ironically inhibited to discuss how the guilt is effecting her or in what respects.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I think each person takes what they want out of religion. For example, my wife went to catholic school all the way through high school, and I don't ever see her suffer from Catholic guilt. Aside from religion, family, life experiences, etc... will all come in to play. I didn't go to Catholic school but grew up in a catholic home, but don't suffer from catholic guilt.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

While the teaching may be consistent, different people will internalize things differently. I grew up in a very conservative church. While I never rejected God, I did learn to recognize wackiness when I heard it. For the most part I escaped without any serious lasting damage, and I now attend a very sex-positive church.

Other people with different personalities could have ended up much differently.


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## Lloyd Dobler (Apr 24, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> *I think each person takes what they want out of religion*. For example, my wife went to catholic school all the way through high school, and I don't ever see her suffer from Catholic guilt. Aside from religion, family, life experiences, etc... will all come in to play. I didn't go to Catholic school but grew up in a catholic home, but don't suffer from catholic guilt.


Very astute observation, Ellis. I also grew up in a Catholic home, was forced to go to church for years, and my parents battled back and forth via religion because my Dad was more religious than my Mom. I figured out pretty quickly that any kind of organized religion is not for me personally, but I still think the kinds of things (ie, right vs. wrong) taught by religions and religious schools can be important frameworks for young children growing up. I think when I was younger I did have a little bit of Catholic guilt, but I grew out of that soon enough.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

There are tons of websites about sex in marriage in the context of Protestant Christianity. I don't know if that indicates a strong need for fixing marital sex or a strong sense of liberal freedom about sex.

On the other and the few Catholic forums about marital sexual dysfunction actual have terms like "Abstinent Marriage" and "Celibate Marriage" as plausibly good things.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Runs like Dog said:


> There are tons of websites about sex in marriage in the context of Protestant Christianity. I don't know if that indicates a strong need for fixing marital sex or a strong sense of liberal freedom about sex.
> 
> On the other and the few Catholic forums about marital sexual dysfunction actual have terms like "Abstinent Marriage" and "Celibate Marriage" as plausibly good things.


I'm sure it's viewed by one of the spouses as a good thing.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

As a catholic, I should point out that the Church's teachings on masturbation and porn aren't limited to women. Men aren't supposed to masturbate or watch porn, either! 

To explain as best as I can with limited time (I have to go to work), the Church teaches that masturbation is using the sexual organs and pleasure outside of it's intended use, which is marital sex. Not that sexual pleasure is evil or dirty, but that sexual pleasure is reserved for marital sex.

Here's the interesting part. WOMEN can reach orgasm through oral or manual stimulation (toys are ok) as part of foreplay or afterplay. The MAN, however, is only supposed to reach orgasm in the vagina. Oral and manual stimulation is fine, but not to the point of orgasm unless it's reached in the vagina. So, in the case of marital sex, women actually have more freedom then men. 

As far as porn, the Church teaches that sex on camera for pay is not only misuse of the gift of sexuality, but it is against the dignity of the "actors" and harms them as well as society.

Considering the human sex trafficking issues and the many marriages/LTR's that suffer due to porn addiction, it's hard to argue with that.


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

OP, I think you should always have plenty of wine available.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Shoto1984 said:


> OP, I think you should always have plenty of wine available.


But not communion wine. That just adds a whole 'nother dimension of crazy.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> As a catholic, I should point out that the Church's teachings on masturbation and porn aren't limited to women. Men aren't supposed to masturbate or watch porn, either!
> 
> To explain as best as I can with limited time (I have to go to work), the Church teaches that masturbation is using the sexual organs and pleasure outside of it's intended use, which is marital sex. Not that sexual pleasure is evil or dirty, but that sexual pleasure is reserved for marital sex.
> 
> ...



I'll also add to this that the Catholic church advocates for wives to maintain their marital obligations in the bedroom. So in this sense the Catholic faith uses guilt to motivate wives to have sex.

Either way, guilt and sex are a bad combination in my opinion. My wife says that "guilt" and "shame" are just your instincts (not necessarily religion) telling you that you should NOT do something and that perhaps you should listen carefully to those feelings and discuss them.

Regards,
Badsanta


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

One reason I quit being Catholic was because of the message of guilt. It really clashed with my desire to be expressive and sexual (with the one, right man for me.) 

I had years of hangups after being a good Catholic girl. Now I'm a staunch member of the Church of Don't Be a D1ck. It preaches all the good Christian messages and ways of life, but now comes with zero guilt.


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## Constable Odo (Feb 14, 2015)

Everything Catholicism teaches pertaining to sex is designed to create more little Catholics. For example, the Church has given us that highly successful birth control technique known as the "rhythm method". More little Catholics means more "donations" to the Church when you pay to have your little Catholics' "original sin" wiped clean, first communion, confirmation, and so on.

Church membership is also highly overstated because the Church counts every child of a Catholic as being Catholic even if the child isn't such.

Couple this with the fact most "Christians" are some of the most bigoted, intolerant a$$holes on the planet (despite their mantra "love the sinner, hate the sin, blah blah blah), gives me a very negative outlook on organized religion. While I think it can teach strong moral lessons, I also think the brainwashing does more harm than good to many weak-willed people.

The proudest moment of my life was when my eldest son was "invited to leave" his Catholic middle school because he told his nun teacher "religion is a crock of bull$hit". (pardon me while I wipe a tear of pride from my eye)

For a while I dabbled in Pastafarianism. I realized, though, I wasn't getting rich, only fat, off the carbs. So I have now converted to be a charter member of the Church of the Dead Presidents. Hamilton, Jackson, Lee and Grant are our patron saints. Our motto: "Religion is a big business...we're just honest about it."


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

At least you don't rape sex slaves a al various sura in the Quran.


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> While the teaching may be consistent, different people will internalize things differently. I grew up in a very conservative church. While I never rejected God, I did learn to recognize wackiness when I heard it. For the most part I escaped without any serious lasting damage, and I now attend a very sex-positive church.
> 
> Other people with different personalities could have ended up much differently.


Almost shouted at the computer over the first line. In many religions the teaching is not consistent. It is not consistent between churches, with some good teachers and some crap. And it is not consistent with the bible too.

I don't think it is religion itself that inhibits women, it is bad religion that inhibits. Of course people can't often see that for themselves, especially children being fed bad ideas as religion. The poor kids listening to the crap teacher never know they are hearing crap, they think they are hearing religious truth. 

I am lucky to be in a very sex-positive church. Marriage sermons are often about how your body is not yours but belongs to your spouse etc. Could you have a HD/LD mismatch if both spouses really followed that idea? We are not catholic, but sometimes with all the little ones running around I wonder.

And back to the title, no-one seems to have mentioned society. I would blame society too for inhibiting women (and men). Things like advertising and TV shows that promote slvty behavior and show violence to woman as normal. I worried more about what my daughter saw on TV and internet than what she heard at church.


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

So with a thread title like "how society/religion inhibits women," one would expect a detailed post railing against the injustice of it all, and what kind of God would torment the little darlings so frustratingly, anyway?

What a letdown.

Not even a question, just a thought process that goes like this-

My wife is embarrassed about using a sex toy. She went to Catholic grade school. Therefore Catholicism (and a society with Catholic churches in it?) causes her to feel embarrassed about sex toys.

Perhaps your wife had parents who "inhibited" her by emphasizing things to her like, "good girls don't have sex with lots of men,| or "don't touch yourself there, it's dirty." You know, told her things that made her, I dunno, maybe VALUABLE as a wife?

And then along came you, and even before you put a ring on her, you might have been inhibiting her, saying things like "only have sex with ME," and "no, you can't put that in me, I'm a guy."

Is it possible that your wife is the way she is because she possesses AGENCY, and can make her own decisions and feel her own feelings like a human being?

Naaah, too complicated. Let's stick with blaming society and religion.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NotLikeYou said:


> Perhaps your wife had parents who "inhibited" her by emphasizing things to her like, "good girls don't have sex with lots of men, or "don't touch yourself there, it's dirty." You know, told her *things that made her, I dunno, maybe VALUABLE as a wife?*


:lol::lol::lol:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

Constable Odo said:


> Couple this with the fact *most *"Christians" are some of the most bigoted, intolerant a$$holes on the planet (despite their mantra "love the sinner, hate the sin, blah blah blah), gives me a very negative outlook on organized religion.


I'm a Christian, attend church, have many Christian friends. I only know one or two Christians like that.

On the other hand, I know plenty of people who attempt to shame Christians for our faith and belief in the bible, accuse all Christianity of being hypocrites while being close friends with none, have a superiority attitude towards Christians for needing a "crutch", make generalized statements pertaining to "most" Christians, and take every opportunity to bash Christians and their faith.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

NotLikeYou said:


> So with a thread title like "how society/religion inhibits women," one would expect a detailed post railing against the injustice of it all, and what kind of God would torment the little darlings so frustratingly, anyway?
> 
> What a letdown.
> 
> ...


It's dirty to touch yourself there? 

How about to the left a little? :smile2:

So if a woman touches herself she loses her value? Isn't this a gem of a post! 
I can see that whatever religious affiliation you have did you no harm. No harm at all....:crazy:


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

For some strange reason, the U.S. during the 19th century spawned a whole slew of Protestant denominations. A few of these make Catholicism look positively enlightened and progressive in comparison...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Religion can in some cases leave people very inhibited, but its not just religion that does this. I am from a non-religious family, but one with an extremely uptight view of sexuality - and to this day it still has some effect on how I think about sex.


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## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

ocotillo said:


> For some strange reason, the U.S. during the 19th century spawned a whole slew of Protestant denominations. A few of these make Catholicism look positively enlightened and progressive in comparison...


care to name a few of those Protestant denominations along with their particular doctrines that make Catholicism look enlightened and progressive in comparison?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Taking a guess Ocotillo means Westboro Baptists, snake-handlers and the such?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

@thefam

I'm a Christian too and I know what you're talking about with the constant bashing the internet brings, however I also believe that as Christians it's incumbent on us to call out the crazy in our own ranks as well. Just live the example of what it SHOULD be, and let the haters hate.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

thefam said:


> care to name a few of those Protestant denominations along with their particular doctrines that make Catholicism look enlightened and progressive in comparison?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because of the sensitivity of this topic, I'm going to restrict my answer to a piece of low hanging fruit. 

The Second Advent / Millerite movement of the 19th century spawned a number of lesser known faiths besides the Seventh Day Adventists. One of these is known as Jehovah's Witnesses. While other flavors of Christianity might frown on premarital sex, oral sex, homosexuality, masturbation, etc., on paper, this group enforces their disapproval of those practices via eccliesiastical tribunals and an extreme form of shunning that is practically unheard of in this day and age.

If there is an orthodox flavor of Christianity where cunninlingus and fellatio are actionable offenses, I am unaware of it.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Football players want to thank God for helping them that day. I guess that means God didn't help the guys on the other team that didn't win?

Masturbation is wicked because it's only for pleasure and not for procreation...HA! The clitorishas only one single function, sexual pleasure. It is Human women that posses an organ with one single function for sexual pleasure. No other organism (mammal, bird, fish, invertebrate..) has an organ that has only one single function for pleasure, sexual or otherwise. So the human female was DESIGNED to experience sexual pleasure. 

I think the religious leaders who decided that masturbation was wrong were men who were jealous of women and the vast amount of pleasure a woman can have.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> So the human female was DESIGNED to experience sexual pleasure.


Now that's a new one. The argument for sexual pleasure from design. Do the folks over at Intelligent Design know about this?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> As a catholic, I should point out that the Church's teachings on masturbation and porn aren't limited to women. Men aren't supposed to masturbate or watch porn, either!
> 
> To explain as best as I can with limited time (I have to go to work), the Church teaches that masturbation is using the sexual organs and pleasure outside of it's intended use, which is marital sex. Not that sexual pleasure is evil or dirty, but that sexual pleasure is reserved for marital sex.
> 
> ...


You've just confirmed that sex and sexual urges according to Catholicism are to be mastered and denied until marriage, and again until the resulting child is a welcome consequence. 

How can a teen age boy getting erections through out the day possibly cope without the benefit of masturbation? I thinks it's down right cruel to even HINT he should continue to suffer and not touch himself until his wedding night. 

As I stated in my previous post, human women have a clitoris whose only purpose is to receive sexual pleasure and having been through a long period of extremely high sex drive I would not have been able to cope without masturbation.

So how are people with very strong sex drives to cope? By being shamed into behaving themselves. By being threatened with god's wrath because the discomfort of not masturbating has got to be better than the discomfort God would bring if those urges weren't mastered.

To claim that the Catholic Church doesn't teach sexual shame is simply wrong, niave, and frankly an outright lie.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Now that's a new one. The argument for sexual pleasure from design. Do the folks over at Intelligent Design know about this?


I sent them an email a couple of years ago. Never got a reply. Probably my fault though since the subject line was "All hail the clitoris!"


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

My personal opinion is that organized religion is nothing but a power play intended for men to control other men and especially subjugating women. Men have never wanted women to have a say in anything throughout history so they created this thing called "religion" to give their control-freakness a divine veil. 

Today, the Pope controls people through his pronouncements which he changes as per his whim. Pope Francis is a good guy, but the previous Popes were power mongers including Pope JP. JP came to India and said that India was a country ripe for "harvesting". Is that a divine thought? To me, all these guys are crooks. The Muslim mullahs and imams are the same thing. They create laws on just about everything and in the end, the women suffer.

As far as hinduism goes, many things are good and some things are bad or not compatible with 2015 living, so I leave them out. I eat beef though I am not supposed to as per tradition, though it is never mentioned in religious scripture that one should not. If I eat chicken, I see nothing wrong in eating beef. If I quit, then I will quit all meat. Just quitting one kind is being a hypocrite.

Religion has outlived its usefulness and what we need is spirituality and being and doing good. Instead we have the major religions saying "I am better than you" which I completely reject.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Many people believe that church authority is the same as God's authority. Not a Catholic, but I believe this is an actual doctrine of Catholicism. I was brought up to believe that God can speak for Himself if he so desires, and any man who tries to speak on His behalf is asking for trouble.

One of the tenets of Christianity that often gets ignored is that of free will. I use mine. What I do, and where I stick it is between me, God, and whomever I stick it in.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

thefam said:


> On the other hand, I know plenty of people who attempt to shame Christians for our faith and belief in the bible, accuse all Christianity of being hypocrites while being close friends with none, have a superiority attitude towards Christians for needing a "crutch", make generalized statements pertaining to "most" Christians, and take every opportunity to bash Christians and their faith.


As do I, but if one's life experience up to this point has demonstrated a preponderance of the negative, it's what's going to color one's opinion. There are good, evil, and shades of grey in all things. It just depends on the color of the filter you see through.


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

*LittleDeer* said:


> It's dirty to touch yourself there?
> 
> How about to the left a little? :smile2:
> 
> ...


Once upon a time there was an OP.

His wife was embarrassed about some pretty mundane, normal bedroom activities.

OP decided that religion was to blame.

Some anonymous commenter who is unlike any other, posited that perhaps his wife was that way because of things her parents said when she was young and impressionable.

Parents telling their children that touching yourself is bad could possibly, conceivably, cause some children to grow up to be embarrassed about touching themselves. 

Yeah, I know, crazy, right?

See, I was trying to make the point that possibly the sources of OP's wife's discomfort were more personal than "society" and "religion."

Perhaps you confused a suggestion regarding how OP's wife might have arrived at being embarrassed, as being a personal view held by me. 

And that's okay. I aim to entertain.

But let's get back to the part where OP's wife was in Catholic grade school, and is now embarrassed about having been caught with a sex toy by her husband.

How do YOU think that society and religion have oppressed her in the bedroom?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

NotLikeYou said:


> See, I was trying to make the point that possibly the sources of OP's wife's discomfort were more personal than "society" and "religion."
> 
> Perhaps you confused a suggestion regarding how OP's wife might have arrived at being embarrassed, as being a personal view held by me.
> 
> ...


And where do you think these well meaning parents got the idea that teaching their children not to touch themselves, that their "down there" area was dirty and shameful? 

Think it's something all these well meaning parents made up themselves? 

Attitudes towards sex are informed by society in general and shaped by religion and since the "moral majority" in this country seem to think they've got the lock on what morals are and how they are developed, it is indeed religion that is to blame for the sexual dysfunction of many many adults. And it is those adults who communicate that same drivel to their own children thus ensuring another generation of sexually repressed and ill informed people! 

If one lives in a society that covets virginity and innocence how are these well meaning parents to persuade their children from exploring their bodies and possibly spilling the holy seed, or causing an increased desire for necking and petting? By shaming them, by keeping them ignorant, and by taking away their rights to privacy and self determination.

You bet your ass it's religion to blame!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> I think each person takes what they want out of religion. For example, my wife went to catholic school all the way through high school, and I don't ever see her suffer from Catholic guilt. Aside from religion, family, life experiences, etc... will all come in to play. I didn't go to Catholic school but grew up in a catholic home, but don't suffer from catholic guilt.



This is true... but. (Of course there is a but. )The capacity to accept or deny the indoctrination of our youth varies according many, many factors, many of which are complex and not easily identified by rational thinking.

I was also raised Catholic. My mom was a big guilt/shame monster. In somewhat recent conversations with my therapist, he indicated he thought my history with my Mom and the "stories" I took from her contributes to my hind brain feeling of being a bad person despite my front brain knowing different and all evidence to the contrary. 

My father was the exact opposite. He was a natural positive parent. He was the kind of person who listened, reinforced positive values through recognizing the intrinsic value of his children.

The former probably would have crippled me in the absence of the latter.


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## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

ocotillo said:


> Because of the sensitivity of this topic, I'm going to restrict my answer to a piece of low hanging fruit.
> 
> *The Second Advent / Millerite movement of the 19th century spawned a number of lesser known faiths besides the Seventh Day Adventists. One of these is known as Jehovah's Witnesses.* While other flavors of Christianity might frown on premarital sex, oral sex, homosexuality, masturbation, etc., on paper, this group enforces their disapproval of those practices via eccliesiastical tribunals and an extreme form of shunning that is practically unheard of in this day and age.
> 
> If there is an orthodox flavor of Christianity where cunninlingus and fellatio are actionable offenses, I am unaware of it.


I would debate that either of those are Christian because of their doctrine but I guess there's no point. Not aiming that at you personally but debating religion in general.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

thefam said:


> I would debate that either of those are Christian because of their doctrine but I guess there's no point. Not aiming that at you personally but debating religion in general.


Well I did say it was a piece of low hanging fruit. 

And you're right. It's not something that can or really even should be debated. 

Systems of classification _probably_ exist more for the benefit of outside observers than they do for people inside the systems they describe.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I don't know what to add except I've experienced this in two marriages now.

First wife was catholic. 

What I found really odd was that when I was really young (like grade 9 or 10) I liked to date girls from the local catholic school because they were very uninhibited. I always thought it was a rebellious thing -- too many rules actually made them more rebellious. And, you know, the catholic school girl thing.

Then, once married, everything seemed to change for some of them. Weird.

I grok the whole sex shaming thing and think it's a raw deal, especially for girls.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

badsanta said:


> I'll also add to this that the Catholic church advocates for wives to maintain their marital obligations in the bedroom. So in this sense the Catholic faith uses guilt to motivate wives to have sex.
> 
> Either way, guilt and sex are a bad combination in my opinion. My wife says that "guilt" and "shame" are just your instincts (not necessarily religion) telling you that you should NOT do something and that perhaps you should listen carefully to those feelings and discuss them.
> 
> ...


Actually, the Church teaches that BOTH the male and female spouse owe the "marital debt".

The belief is that, when you marry, you are giving and receiving each others' total self...body included.

But for fear of fornication, let every man have his own wife: and let every woman have her own husband. *Let the husband render the debt to his wife: and the wife also in like manner to the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body: but the husband. And in like manner the husband also hath not power of his own body: but the wife.* Defraud not one another, except, perhaps, by consent, for a time, that you may give yourselves to prayer: and return together again, lest Satan tempt you for your incontinency. 
1Co 7:2-5

So, it's considered sinful to refuse your spouse sex, regardless of gender, without "serious reason". "Serious reason" being usually defined as some kind of illness, medical condition, fear of unintended pregnancy when trying to avoid pregnancy,etc. However, the Church also teaches that the couple are obligated to do all they can to rectify the problem and be able to resume a healthy sex life.

If you look around the forum and others like it, you'll see a lot of posters who are devastated and at the end of their ropes because they are being denied sex by their spouses. Some of them leave. Others cheat. Clearly, denying sex (an important part of the marital relationship) causes problems.

Sex is good for us! It lowers stress, lowers blood pressure, can be decent exercise, improves hair and skin, on and on. Not to mention the pair bonding hormones released and the psychological benefits of feeling desirable, loved, wanted, confident, and so on. I can't see how denying a spouse ISN'T harmful to the whole human...physically, psychologically, and spiritually.



Constable Odo said:


> Everything Catholicism teaches pertaining to sex is designed to create more little Catholics. For example, the Church has given us that highly successful birth control technique known as the "rhythm method". More little Catholics means more "donations" to the Church when you pay to have your little Catholics' "original sin" wiped clean, first communion, confirmation, and so on.
> 
> Church membership is also highly overstated because the Church counts every child of a Catholic as being Catholic even if the child isn't such.
> 
> ...


Actually, the "rhythm method" is NOT what the Church advocates. Natural Family Planning is. NFP is an umbrella term for monitoring biological signs of fertility such as cervical mucus and position, Basal body temp, hormones in urine, etc. so that the couple can avoid sex during the fertile period if they do not wish to conceive. There are no side effects such as with hormone based methods.

The same methods used to avoid pregnancy naturally are also the same methods used by countless doctors around the world to help a couple trying to conceive.

According to the WHO, NFP, when used correctly, is as sound as using artificial contraception. As with anything, users make errors. A recent study in India among NFP users showed a .2% failure rate yearly. A study in Germany showed a .8% failure rate yearly. Quite comparable to real world (as opposed to in lab conditions) stats for artificial birth control.



Anon Pink said:


> You've just confirmed that sex and sexual urges according to Catholicism are to be mastered and denied until marriage, and again until the resulting child is a welcome consequence.
> 
> How can a teen age boy getting erections through out the day possibly cope without the benefit of masturbation? I thinks it's down right cruel to even HINT he should continue to suffer and not touch himself until his wedding night.
> 
> ...


Again, the idea is that God gave us sexual organs and sexual pleasure to both bind a couple and to continue the species. We're also told that we were gifted with things like intelligence and self control. That we're above the other animals in that we aren't slaves to our urges. It's about self discipline and mastery.

I am a very high sex drive woman. I do not masturbate. If I'm horny as hell, I do something productive and useful to channel that energy until I can pounce on the DH. That's how I "cope".

The Church encourages sexual pleasure for both the male and female. It's just encouraged within the confines of marriage.

Besides, the self discipline and mastery in this area helps in other areas, too.


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

marduk said:


> I don't know what to add except I've experienced this in two marriages now.
> 
> First wife was catholic.
> 
> ...


I saw similar behavior as a kid. Our school bus went to both a catholic and a public school. The catholic girls were all prim and proper during the day, and different people after dark. They certainly were inhibited, at least in public during daylight hours. We left them alone, it wasn't worth the stress to deal with a Jekyl and Hyde personality.

But I didn't see that as 'religion', rather a social institution that happens to have a religious part. The school's major defining characteristic seemed to be to employ poorly trained nuns to badly teach local catholics. It was interesting to tease / test their knowledge of Catholic religion. I thought at least they should understand Catholicism.

At university I boarded in a dorm run by two Catholic orders. They had the same Christian origin, both Catholic, but were vastly different.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> Again, the idea is that God gave us sexual organs and sexual pleasure to both bind a couple and to continue the species. We're also told that we were gifted with things like intelligence and self control. That we're above the other animals in that we aren't slaves to our urges. It's about self discipline and mastery.
> 
> I am a very high sex drive woman. I do not masturbate. If I'm horny as hell, I do something productive and useful to channel that energy until I can pounce on the DH. That's how I "cope".
> 
> ...



I think your statements reveal the nobility of the idea of saving all sexual energy for the marriage bed, to learn and practice self control and discipline. I just don't see that happening in real life. 

How is a parent to teach their horny son not to masturbate? How do you plan to do this? Do you actually think this is a fair and healthy thing for an adolescent male? And your daughters, how will they ever learn their body if they're taught not to touch? How will they ever learn to let go when they've been taught to keep it all bottled up tight and practice self control? 

Oh I'm sure there are some catholic women like you, lucky enough to have a strong sex drive that over rides the early teachings of "don't touch that!" But by and large, catholic women can hardly even talk about sex let alone own their sexuality.

The Catholic Church is wrong, wrong wrong wrong wrong! Healthy bodies and healthy minds include a full understanding of their own sexuality and all the ways that can be expressed. Teaching a teenager to own their body, their sexuality and their decisions is not teaching them to practice free love. But it is teaching them to be fully sexual partners and THAT will create more loving marriages more able to accept the spirituality that the Catholic Church can provide.


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## lifeisbetterthanalternat (Apr 24, 2012)

A Pink your responses are true to form insightful. 

One thing that I found right on target are some of the comments about parental roles played here. My sons and daughters have a habit of touching their genitals. Sometimes like it is their job LOL. I have tried to not criticize them for exploring their bodies. At the same time, when my son is publicly stroking his penis , I have to gently remind him that certain practices should remain private. I wonder how many parents have said "don't touch that" unwhittingly to get their kids to stop and unknowingly shaming them. You wonder also how many parents have used non-verbal behavior at very young ages that babies have learned that self-touching is "bad". 

I Do believe in many of the Christian teachings and values though many are sexist and as others have pointed out, inconsistent with our modern view of things. it is also hard to ignore that many of their teachings seem to not have any foundation in actual scripture. Clearly some of these teachings were patriarchial in nature of served for social order more than for religious (purely) purposes.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

marduk said:


> I don't know what to add except I've experienced this in two marriages now.
> 
> First wife was catholic.
> 
> What I found really odd was that when I was really young (like grade 9 or 10) I liked to date girls from the local catholic school because they were very uninhibited.


If they were anything like me, they were not uninhibited in any emotionally healthy sense but looked like it as a matter of rebellion.



> I always thought it was a rebellious thing -- too many rules actually made them more rebellious. And, you know, the catholic school girl thing.


Not just too many rules but rules and expectations that made no sense. 



> Then, once married, everything seemed to change for some of them. Weird.


Not weird. It is a different game. It is about love, trust and forever. Which is COMPLETELY different from ... what the heck is this sex thing that my parents and church have told me is a dirty, nasty, sinful thing that you only do with your husband.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I came upon get my daughter, 2&1/2 at the time, laying down in the middle of the hall way masturbating by grinding her diaper covered crotch on the floor. He face was red and she was sweating. Clearly she'd been at it for a bit.

I've seen 3 nieces, in diapers, grinding their crotches on seat belt straps, high chair straps and even the corner of a wall. Very young children figure out that parts of their bodies feel really good when it gets rubbed in a certain way. This is normal healthy infant development.

Luckily I knew it was perfectly normal when I saw my baby girl masturbating in her diaper. I gently patted her back and asked her if she was making her bottom feel good, she nodded yes. I waited for her to be done, no babies do not orgasm try as they might, and then told her it was okay to make her bottom feel good but she should do this in her room.

My husband's sister witnessed our nieces masturbating in her high chair by rubbing her diaper covered bottom onto the T strap. My SIL laughed and said, what is she doing. I explained she was masturbating. The baby was only about 8 months old. My SIL was horrified! I explained it's perfectly normal infant development and that to the child this isn't sexual, it's just something that feels good. My SIL walked away shaking her head.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

And - even though it doesn't need to be said - infant and toddler boys do the same thing.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> And - even though it doesn't need to be said - infant and toddler boys do the same thing.


LOL, right, because who HASNT seen a little boy walking around holding onto his penis for dear life! :grin2: 

My friend's 3 year old son said " Mom, I love my penis so much, can we take a picture of it!"

Every time you change a little boy's diaper you have to be ready for two things.
1. He is going to reach for his penis and if he has pooped, it's going to be a disaster!
2. He is going to pee...all over everything.

For some reason it is commonly understood that baby boys and little boys are fascinated with and love to touch their penises. But it's not so commonly understood that baby girls and little girls discover their bottoms feel really good when they rub it in just the right way.

Developmentally, if a baby boy can make his own is feel good by touching and fondling it, a baby girl can as well. To prohibit and discourage this aspect of development is to encourage the development and growth of eventual sexual dysfunction.

So when you find yourself about to tell you child not to touch that, think about your child grown up and not able to keep a relationship because they have never discovered the happiness and joy their body can bring them.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> So when you find yourself about to tell you child not to touch that, think about your child grown up and not able to keep a relationship because they have never discovered the happiness and joy their body can bring them.


I think that is going a little overboard lol, as if you will ruin your child's future relationship b/c you tell him/her not to touch themselves in front of other people...


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## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

marduk said:


> First wife was catholic.
> 
> What I found really odd was that when I was really young (like grade 9 or 10) I liked to date girls from the local catholic school because they were very uninhibited. I always thought it was a rebellious thing -- too many rules actually made them more rebellious. *And, you know, the catholic school girl thing.*


My current wife and my ex are Catholic. And yes, I went to Catholic high school. OMG...I had fun back in those days.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> LOL, right, because who HASNT seen a little boy walking around holding onto his penis for dear life! :grin2:


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> I think that is going a little overboard lol, as if you will ruin your child's future relationship b/c you tell him/her not to touch themselves in front of other people...


My comment was not intended to be taken so literally. Of course there are moments, as I discussed in my post, when a child has to be taught to seek privacy. However embracing and shaming are not wise tactics for this situation.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> My comment was not intended to be taken so literally. Of course there are moments, as I discussed in my post, when a child has to be taught to seek privacy. However embracing and shaming are not wise tactics for this situation.


I posted this yesterday in the General section. You will appreciate it. Stick with it for the entire 20 minutes.

There's a section in the middle where John wonders why a woman is trying to shout the horniness out of a group of teenagers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0jQz6jqQS0


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I posted this yesterday in the General section. You will appreciate it. Stick with it for the entire 20 minutes.
> 
> There's a section in the middle where John wonders why a woman is trying to shout the horniness out of a group of teenagers.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0jQz6jqQS0


LOVED that video! So damn funny!

Yet so damn frightening, and maddening, and disgraceful!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I posted this yesterday in the General section. You will appreciate it. Stick with it for the entire 20 minutes.
> 
> There's a section in the middle where John wonders why a woman is trying to shout the horniness out of a group of teenagers.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0jQz6jqQS0


Just watched that with my kids. Love it.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Here's another little glance into the world a lot of Americans grow up in:


"Another way the Bible helps us is by giving counsel on how to treat those of the opposite sex. Such counsel clearly rules out flirting. Some may view the use of body language, gestures, and glances that have romantic overtones as harmless in that these do not involve any physical contact. But flirting, or responding to it, may arouse unclean thoughts that can lead to serious sexual wrongdoing. It has happened before—it can happen again."


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Organized religion has screwed and enslaved women, plain and simple. It's a tool for some men to control women and satisfy their massive egos. This is especially glaring in Islam where women are commodities and objects to serve men.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> Here's another little glance into the world a lot of Americans grow up in:
> 
> 
> "Another way the Bible helps us is by giving counsel on how to treat those of the opposite sex. Such counsel clearly rules out flirting. Some may view the use of body language, gestures, and glances that have romantic overtones as harmless in that these do not involve any physical contact. But flirting, or responding to it, may arouse unclean thoughts that can lead to serious sexual wrongdoing. It has happened before—it can happen again."




Where did you dig that little pearl up?


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## Tango (Sep 30, 2012)

I grew up and went to school in the catholic system. While I have not practiced my religion in forever, that stuff haunted me for a long time and controlled the way I behaved...now I just dgaf...there is a lot of guilt and shaming that goes on in the Catholic school system I attended...it was very confusing as a girl to have those feelings for boys and be told they weren't proper. So testing the boundaries was always a balancing act between being who I am and who the church and society thought I should be.


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## LainyLove22 (Aug 22, 2015)

I went to Catholic school from 1st grade all the way through high school with Sunday Mass each weekend , no meat on Fridays during Lent etc , etc , etc.

I still attend Mass every so often but yes those years did inhibit me in many ways. I've opened my eyes in recent years to realize that yeah masturbating ,watching porn and fantasizing naughty things may be a NO NO but that's what confession is for !?!??!?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I posted this yesterday in the General section. You will appreciate it. Stick with it for the entire 20 minutes.
> 
> There's a section in the middle where John wonders why a woman is trying to shout the horniness out of a group of teenagers.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0jQz6jqQS0


This ought to be a sticky but not on this board. On every parent's computer when it starts up.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

Religion gets a bad wrap by some because they don't really understand what it is or what it means. Religion is merely an organized set of beliefs, cultural systems and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence. It's what you believe in or your core belief system, if you will. Whether you grow up in a Catholic Church, a Protestant Church, a Muslim Church or no church, we all have core beliefs. So we all practice some sort of religion. Even the Agnostics and Atheists because they too also have a group of core beliefs.

Religion in and of itself is not the be all and end all however. Beliefs are one thing but faith is another thing entirely and is really all that matters. I was given an example years ago that made total sense and was easy to understand.

A high rise tight rope walker would perform every week for an audience. He would walk across a tight rope between two tall buildings high above the ground. He would often ride a unicycle across the tight rope and even balance a chair on his nose while walking across the two buildings. He was always successful and never stumbled. People would come out week after week to watch him. Everyone believed that he would make it to the other side. Well, one day he gets a wheel barrow and asks you to get in while he goes across the to the other side of the building. Now you believe that he can walk across successfully because you've seen him do it many times before but this is different because you have to go with him. 

If you do get in, you don't just believe he can do it, you have faith.


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