# Narcissistic Personality Disorder: Anyone Dealing With?



## Gunthar (Sep 2, 2012)

Hi All,

I have posted my troubles several times on this site.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/55056-understanding-my-wife-any-advice.html

In a nutshell I (and my counselor and some of our family) has thought my wife may have NPD. Her actions are spot in for one with this disorder and has been so since we married (thought it was stresses in her life causing some of the behavior).

NPD traits that are spot on for my wife:
--Reacting to criticism with anger (always)
--Taking advantage of others to reach their own goals (yep)
--Exaggerating their own importance, achievements, and talents (just ask the kids on this one)
--Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance (always talking this way)
--Requiring constant attention and positive reinforcement from others (possible reason why she flirts all the time)
--Becoming jealous easily (I laugh at this one....she is super jealous as she has been known to throw an insult at a woman who looked at me in a store 2 seconds longer than she should have)
--Lacking empathy and disregarding the feelings of others (this is sadly true for she rarely has any regards for my or the kids feelings...she says they are immature, irrelevant, whatever)
--Being obsessed with oneself (always talks about her looks, trying to look better via whatever means, plastic surgery she has pushed many times)
--Trouble keeping healthy relationships (pushed away virtually all family members, friends, teachers, coaches (except for EA), etc.)
--Becoming easily hurt and rejected
--Wanting "the best" of everything
--Appearing unemotional

Of course I am going to counseling but she refuses as she says I am the one who needs it the most (as well as the kids and she even has said it about some family members).

Anyone out there who has had to deal with a person with this type of disorder? 

Right now our marriage is like a rollercoaster.....for a few days we are making progress.....then something will throw us into a loop or a nose dive.......only to plane out again for a few days. Unfortunately, we (the kids and I) cannot keep this ride up indefinitely as something needs to change (trying to avoid divorce).

I have tired to talk to my wife about it (without naming the disorder) but she believes it is everyone around her who has caused her to act the way she does.

Any thoughts?


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## Airbus (Feb 8, 2012)

Apparently I have borderline personality disorder, which is often co-exisiting with NPD. These things are very hard to diagnose, though!

The symptoms sound accurate though; they also mirror mine, minus the exagerating and the doing anything to look good.

I get easily upset (angered);
I tend to blame others;
I get all 'woe is me' when things arenn't going right...
Relationships a disaster all my life;

I always thought that NPD sufferers lacked empathy and emotion?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I was in a relationship with 1 NPD person and dealt with it by leaving. Wouldn't ever have been happy if I stayed. 

Have a relative who is a narcissist. I deal with her by limiting the contact I have w/ her & also calling her out on her bullsh! & whenever she does her "me" things.


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## krismimo (Jan 26, 2011)

I think she is close and she sounds like she may have some of those traits, the issue I have with this forrum is that so many people claim that their ex spoused or loved one has NPD, NPD is very very rare so keep that in mind and there are diffrent levels of NPD the misconception of NPD is being self absorbed that is correct to a point. I also read that usually nPD is about an image it is what someone wants to potry and if that image is messed with there are some claws that will def come out. 

MAYO CLINIC- "When you have narcissistic personality disorder, you may come across as conceited, boastful or pretentious. You often monopolize conversations. You may belittle or look down on people you perceive as inferior. You may have a sense of entitlement. And when you don't receive the special treatment to which you feel entitled, you may become very impatient or angry. You may insist on having "the best" of everything — the best car, athletic club, medical care or social circles, for instance.

But underneath all this behavior often lies a fragile self-esteem. You have trouble handling anything that may be perceived as criticism. You may have a sense of secret shame and humiliation. And in order to make yourself feel better, you may react with rage or contempt and efforts to belittle the other person to make yourself appear better.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

My ex was diagnosed a couple years ago. I couldn't figure out what was wrong - I thought he was Bi-Polar. When he made all sorts of crazy allegations against me and painted me as a Satan of a mother and sued for full custody (I had full custody after last round in court) I asked my attorney to petition the courts for a psych eval. Ex agreed to get one (assuming that he was the perfect father) if I got one, too. The judge ordered both of us to have full psychological evaluations for parental fitness by a psychologist selected by the courts. 

It took about 8 months and many appointments of both of us and at least four with our daughter - we each had to take her with us and she spoke to the psychologist alone several times, too.

He was diagnosed with NPD that was so extreme her recommendation to the courts said that "even with intensive treatment spanning many years it is unlikely he will make any real improvement". Her report was over 40 pages long and outlined what she learned about each of us. It was VERY enlightening and made sense of the confusion I'd experienced (as well as understanding his constant criticism and put-downs and my walking on egg-shells all of the time) - it was really the closure I needed. I was glad I pressed for it - I needed to understand.

I don't say that to discourage you but if it's REAL NPD it's VERY difficult to treat because they will never see themselves as needing any treatment because they are SO CONVINCED that the problem lies with someone else.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Gunthar, I think you'll find my article on the topic very helpful. Even as a counselor, I had not had a single patient that met the full criteria for NPD. However, I ended up in a relationship with someone who did. He "persuaded" me to go to counseling so he could "fix" me because I wasn't doing things the way he thought they should be done, and I had a pretty firm grasp on the situation. When the counselor attempted to hold him accountable for anything at all, he stormed out of the office. After the second time he did in four sessions, he refused to return. 

Anyway, I did a lot of digging and research during that time, and have since written an article that talks in great depth about NPD, provides some pretty simple ways for confirming its presence, and gives some tips for coping with it. There's also a full documentary on the page that I believe you'll find extremely helpful. The final section of it is quite a surprise, too.

It's here if you're interested: Narcissism: Recognizing, Coping With, and Treating It


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Gunthar,

Performing a lay diagnosis and labeling you wife is probably counter productive. I think you can safely say your wife has some narcissistic personality traits (rather than disorder). A recent survey showed over 50% of teens polled showed narcissistic personality traits so your wife has a lot of company.

My suggestion is to look over the Townsend and Cloud book "Boundaries in Marriage". Start to set healthy boundaries with appropriate (not cataclysmic) consequences. Be prepared for some fireworks


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> Gunthar, I think you'll find my article on the topic very helpful. Even as a counselor, I had not had a single patient that met the full criteria for NPD. However, I ended up in a relationship with someone who did. He "persuaded" me to go to counseling so he could "fix" me because I wasn't doing things the way he thought they should be done, and I had a pretty firm grasp on the situation. When the counselor attempted to hold him accountable for anything at all, he stormed out of the office. After the second time he did in four sessions, he refused to return.
> 
> Anyway, I did a lot of digging and research during that time, and have since written an article that talks in great depth about NPD, provides some pretty simple ways for confirming its presence, and gives some tips for coping with it. There's also a full documentary on the page that I believe you'll find extremely helpful. The final section of it is quite a surprise, too.
> 
> It's here if you're interested: Narcissism: Recognizing, Coping With, and Treating It



VERY accurate - this even explains how (as a friend put it) "someone as smart as [you] can fall for his BS"... because he DID put me on a pedestal so I did not realize how critical he would be by the end.



> At first, their targets are put on a pedestal and treated as if they're one of the few people worthy of his or her attention, but as soon as the narcissist perceives any flaw or weakness in their target, that person is criticized, demeaned, humiliated, or physically abused. People with NPD will lie, manipulate, cheat, assassinate a target's reputation, career, or life, and feel no compassion whatsoever.


All of the above including tried to ruin my reputation/career/life and even SAID he would.

RUN.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Gunthar,
> 
> Performing a lay diagnosis and labeling you wife is probably counter productive. I think you can safely say your wife has some narcissistic personality traits (rather than disorder). A recent survey showed over 50% of teens polled showed narcissistic personality traits so your wife has a lot of company.
> 
> My suggestion is to look over the Townsend and Cloud book "Boundaries in Marriage". Start to set healthy boundaries with appropriate (not cataclysmic) consequences. Be prepared for some fireworks


I would normally agree with you on lay diagnoses being counter-productive, but in the case of NPD it's the only diagnosis he'll be likely to get if she does have the disorder. Since his counselor also believes she has NPD, I think it could be harmful to minimize it and say she "just" has narcissistic traits, because someone with NPD is never going to change and could be dangerous to the OP and/or his children.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Kathy,

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this. Once we label one partner and make them "the problem" the relationship dynamic changes and it becomes difficult for both partners to accept their shared responsibilities. We don't know if the counselor is qualified or even interviewed the woman. I'm not sure how the op or his family could tell whether someone was modeling a narcissistic parent, grew up with an alcoholic parent, was just extremely selfish or extremely immature or both or if they have a full fledged personality disorder. There's just no sense of reference here. If the situation is dangerous, the op can take his wife to an emergency psychiatric intake and get an immediate diagnosis from the psychiatrist on duty.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I strongly consider that my H might be.


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## Gunthar (Sep 2, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Kathy,
> 
> I think we will have to agree to disagree on this. Once we label one partner and make them "the problem" the relationship dynamic changes and it becomes difficult for both partners to accept their shared responsibilities. .


IMHO the real problem is that while I have stepped up and acknowledged I have contributed to the marriage problems....and am actively doing things about it, she refuses to take any REAL responsibility (few times she says she is not perfect...but it does not too much father) as in her eyes the problem lies with me, the kids, the family, the teachers, etc. For this reason I was looking to figure out why she keeps believing she has done only good in the marriage/family while everyone around her has tried to undermine her efforts.

So the way I view it right now is that no matter what positive changes people make around her, if she does have problems that she refuses to acknowledge.........then what does that mean to me? the kids? The future?

BTW, when I mentioned NPD....this is just a guess to explain her actions. The counselor only knows my side of the story as she refuses to go (she has no problems to share). Her family who have suggested this know her side much better and still think this is a possibility......no professional diagnosis yet (unless I drag her to the doctors).


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Gunthar said:


> So the way I view it right now is that no matter what positive changes people make around her, if she does have problems that she refuses to acknowledge.........then what does that mean to me? the kids? The future?


It means that you may have more work ahead of you than you expected. It means you kids may have the advantage of a more involved dad who has to pick up mom's slack while she obsesses over herself. If the kids are out of diapers her role can be substantially diminished. She is always a qualified babysitter. She comes along for the ride while you and your kids develop healthy growing relationships. You might be surprised how she picks up from behind when she sees what you are doing. Then again, maybe not.


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## hehasmyheart (Mar 11, 2010)

Ah, the spoiled brat syndrome. Look closely, and you'll find where it came from somewhere in her family (mom or dad). They either modeled the behavior for her, or spoiled her rotten.

Also, I'm curious if you see any of these traits coming out in your children? I believe my husband has this disorder, and I see it manifesting in my daughter.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Gunthar said:


> So the way I view it right now is that no matter what positive changes people make around her, if she does have problems that she refuses to acknowledge.........then what does that mean to me? the kids? The future?
> 
> BTW, when I mentioned NPD....this is just a guess to explain her actions. The counselor only knows my side of the story as she refuses to go (she has no problems to share). Her family who have suggested this know her side much better and still think this is a possibility......no professional diagnosis yet (unless I drag her to the doctors).


Have you tried inviting her along so she can "help" your counselor understand what you're "not able" to explain?

TenYearHubby makes some good points in his disagreement with the statement I made, though I believe it probably won't make much difference if she's blatantly unwilling to acknowledge her role. If you *can* get her to the counselor's office with you, you'd at least be able to get a more substantial confirmation of your guesswork. 

If you get that substantiation (or if you don't and things continue on this path), then you're right to ask what it can do to your children and yourself in the years to come. The answer is that such behavior is emotionally abusive and it is likely to groom your children to accept abuse from their partners or to become abusive themselves when they grow older if that's one of the primary methods they've seen for coping with the world's demands.


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## Gunthar (Sep 2, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> Have you tried inviting her along so she can "help" your counselor understand what you're "not able" to explain?
> .


Nice idea, tried that saying she could just listen in. She keeps saying that I need to work out all the s$%t going on in my mind and that I am not going to bait her into coming to counseling. She even jokes around saying...."come on, you should realize I am perfect".

The more I am working on myself and the kids, the more I realize this type of attitude is not what I want long term in a wife and mother.

Not to say I will shoot for a divorce soon (although I am mentally ready for it now). I am just wondering how to get through to her that she needs help?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

KathyBatesel said:


> I did a lot of digging and research during that time, and have since written an article that talks in great depth about NPD.... It's here if you're interested: Narcissism: Recognizing, Coping With, and Treating It


Great article Kathy! Thanks for giving us the link.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Gunthar said:


> Nice idea, tried that saying she could just listen in. She keeps saying that I need to work out all the s$%t going on in my mind and that I am not going to bait her into coming to counseling. She even jokes around saying...."come on, you should realize I am perfect".
> 
> The more I am working on myself and the kids, the more I realize this type of attitude is not what I want long term in a wife and mother.
> 
> Not to say I will shoot for a divorce soon (although I am mentally ready for it now). I am just wondering how to get through to her that she needs help?


It sounds as if she's been "baited" before. Has she been to a counselor in the past? Do you know what her experience in this area was?

I don't think you'll find many ways to convince her to get help. I've written on this topic, too (How Can You Help Someone Who Does Not Want Help (But Needs It)?) and it gives some ideas, as well as some warnings.

Thanks, Uptown!


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

krismimo said:


> NPD is very very rare so keep that in mind and there are diffrent levels of NPD.


I agree, Kris. A diagnosis of NPD is rare for several reasons. One is that therapists commonly withhold such a diagnosis -- even when it is warranted -- because they know insurance companies refuse to cover NPD treatments and that the NPDer almost certainly will quit therapy on hearing such a diagnosis.

Moreover, an NPD diagnosis is intended to appease insurance companies, not to help you. Even when your spouse's NPD traits fall well below the diagnostic threshold, they can be strong enough to make you miserable and completely undermine your marriage. Hence, being told by a psychiatrist that your spouse "does not have NPD" does NOT mean you are safe. It does NOT mean he doesn't have strong NPD traits.

This is so because, like all the other PDs, NPD is a "spectrum disorder." This means that, like selfishness and resentment, NPD traits are merely behavioral symptoms that everybody has to some degree. As you say, Kris, NPD traits are something people have "at different levels." It therefore was ridiculous, in 1980, for the psychiatric community to adopt a dichotomous approach -- wherein in client is deemed "to have" or "not have" NPD.

This "yes or no" approach makes perfect sense in every field of the medical sciences, where clients are found to either have a disease or not. Chickenpox, for example, is something you either "have" or "don't have." This is why, in the medical sciences, "disorder" means "disease." In psychiatry, however, it does not mean that. There is NO KNOWN DISEASE that causes any of the ten personality disorders (PDs). Hence, in psychiatry, "disorder" simply means "group of dysfunctional symptoms typically occurring together" (aka a "syndrome").

Of course, the psychiatric community knew in 1980 that this dichotomous approach to diagnosis makes no sense at all for behavioral symptoms that vary in intensity from person to person. They knew it is senseless to say a person meeting only 95% of the diagnostic criteria "has no disorder" and a person meeting 100% "has the disorder."

Doing so is as silly as diagnosing everyone under 6'4" as "short" and everyone under 250 pounds as "skinny." The psychiatric community adopted this silly approach only because the insurance companies -- who were long accustomed to "yes or no" diagnosis from the medical community -- insisted on a single, bright line being drawn between those clients they would cover and those they would not cover.

Over the past three decades, however, the psychiatric community (APA) quickly realized the insurance companies had betrayed them because, despite this act of appeasement, these companies still refused to cover NPD treatments. In addition, the APA members realized that, if they are ever to be taken seriously by the rest of the scientific community, they would have to abandon this absurd approach to identifying mental illness.

This is why, in the new diagnostic manual (DSM-5) that will be released in May 2013, this dichotomous approach is being fully abandoned for all PDs. It is being replaced -- indeed, has already been replaced in the draft manual -- by a graduated approach which measures five levels of severity.

I mention all this to explain why, for a person deciding whether to remain married, obtaining a diagnosis of "no NPD" is unlikely to be helpful. It may be as useless as telling a blind man "There is no TRUCK coming" when he is deciding whether to step into a crosswalk.


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## Gunthar (Sep 2, 2012)

Thanks for the links and.....ouch! Looks like no matter if she has a true disorder or not it will be a tough road for us in the future.

She definitely has something going on in her head because as I mentioned in another thread we have been on a rollercoaster ride relationship since the summer....doing well then one thing will throw us into a loop or nosedive......only to be ok a few days later.

Now I know she has been to counselors in the past (her family told me). Let's just say I know a few things about her past she refuses to tell me......that's ok with me as it was well before our relationship.....but this and a few other things I know she is keeping from me does make me wonder about my wife and whether she continues to have a hidden agenda waiting to spring it on me at the right time.

Basically, I do not want to be her meal ticket until she finds a new man to "save her". If true then I will feel very sorry for this man (and the 2 that came before me).


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

My husband has the traits of NPD...i like what someone called it..the spoiled brat syndrome...that is what I have called it.

The inability to have any empathy..he cannot put himself in anyone elses shoes...is very hard to live with. Also, the constant need to be right above everything else..even when it hurts others. He needs his narcissistic supply and material things and accomplishments must be admired by others. Oh, and entitlement...he deserves the best of everything. 

Also, he is smarter than everyone else...the world is full of idiots and he loves to laugh at them...He loves watching Jerry Springer show..makes him feel like he's so superior...


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## Gunthar (Sep 2, 2012)

dixieangel said:


> My husband has the traits of NPD...i like what someone called it..the spoiled brat syndrome...that is what I have called it.
> 
> The inability to have any empathy..he cannot put himself in anyone elses shoes...is very hard to live with. Also, the constant need to be right above everything else..even when it hurts others. He needs his narcissistic supply and material things and accomplishments must be admired by others. Oh, and entitlement...he deserves the best of everything.
> 
> Also, he is smarter than everyone else...the world is full of idiots and he loves to laugh at them...He loves watching Jerry Springer show..makes him feel like he's so superior...


Yep...that's my wife...smarter and superior in every way yet when one person challenges her thoughts even the slightest.......watch out for the fire and brimstone!


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Gunthar said:


> Thanks for the links and.....ouch! Looks like no matter if she has a true disorder or not it will be a tough road for us in the future.


Yes. The recovery rate for people with PDs is very low. I don't have any facts to back this up but I think NPD is probably the worst, even more so than BPD. Even if your spouse beats the odds and decides to stick with treatment, it is not pill popping. Therapy takes YEARS of really difficult work.

So no, do not hold out waiting for the miracle to happen. You need to take action now. That means set your boundaries, don't hold out and wait for how your husband should or could act, hold them accountable for how they are acting today. If that means you have to leave, then so be it.

I can tell you in my case I had no idea how mentally unhealthy I had become until I was no longer living with Captain Crazy. Living with someone with a PD you are constantly being gaslighted. Your perception of reality is skewed to fit their agenda. You are isolated and made to feel guilty for having feelings and desires that don't fit to their standards. You are constantly criticized, constantly demeaned, constantly told YOU are crazy and abusive, all the while feeling like something isn't right. It's a real Mind F*ck!

That kind of situation is not healthy. You can't be a good partner or parent when you are losing your mind.

Also, I think it's important that people in these kind of relationships look to themselves to evaluate what's going on. Most of the partners that are involved with someone with a PD have some form of codependency. The need to be on someone's pedestal in the first place is a warning sign. The lack of desire to get out of a situation like what you are in is another. I recommend going to coda.org and seeing if you can get to a local meeting, it could be really eye opening.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

hehasmyheart said:


> Ah, the spoiled brat syndrome. Look closely, and you'll find where it came from somewhere in her family (mom or dad). They either modeled the behavior for her, or spoiled her rotten.
> 
> Also, I'm curious if you see any of these traits coming out in your children? I believe my husband has this disorder, and I see it manifesting in my daughter.


With real NPD it isn't about being spoiled - it's a severe insecurity that makes them have to "prove" to the world they are deserving of being put on a pedestal to hide how they really feel. Mere spoiling is more of a sense of entitlement. NPD goes much deeper than that.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

dixieangel said:


> My husband has the traits of NPD...i like what someone called it..the spoiled brat syndrome...that is what I have called it.
> 
> The inability to have any empathy..he cannot put himself in anyone elses shoes...is very hard to live with. Also, the constant need to be right above everything else..even when it hurts others. He needs his narcissistic supply and material things and accomplishments must be admired by others. Oh, and entitlement...he deserves the best of everything.
> 
> Also, he is smarter than everyone else...the world is full of idiots and he loves to laugh at them...He loves watching Jerry Springer show..makes him feel like he's so superior...


OMG - This is my EX! Right down to buying a Mercedes he couldn't afford and watching Jerry Springer to gloat!!!!


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Gunthar said:


> The more I am working on myself and the kids, the more I realize this type of attitude is not what I want long term in a wife and mother.


Gunthar,

I'm sure you don't need me to tell you, but we can't always get what we want (or not get what we don't want). She's you wife and your kid's mother.

Let me share. My wife presents narcissistic personality traits. So does her mom, who is even worse because she married an alcoholic (my wife's dad). Don't know about grandma, except that she is described as being "crazy" and grandpa was also an alcoholic. So do these women have an organic mental disorder or are they just copying their moms down the line or does being raised and married to alcoholic men make you this way? Who knows.


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

EnjoliWoman...

Let's get together and write a book......


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

dixieangel said:


> EnjoliWoman...
> 
> Let's get together and write a book......


I'm writing one  

Friends, family and acquaintances who have an idea of what has been going on in my life are dumbfounded by it all. It's like a Lifetime TV drama. It's too crazy to be true but yet it is.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

My wife has NPD trait, but she is a high-function NPD. It is painful for me to say this, as I wish she is not. I wish she could be a normal wife. It is a painful process to finally realized what she is.

I try very hard to understand her and the NPD trait. The hallmark of NPD of her is these:

1. She think ridiculously high of herself and her family root (gene). Therefore, she can not respect me. It is not that she intentionally to be disrespectful, it is because she can not think of a reason to respect me who should be a lower level than her. She is also very good at finding her friends' weakness and belittle them in her heart. I was fortunate to hear these un-called-for comments from her. If I attack her superiority, she is MAD. Here comes the next one:

2. Rage. Criticism =rage. Because how dare you to criticize her! She can not central the rage, will make a scene that is frightening! I learn that the rage has nothing to do with me. It will last for one day and disappear as hurricane next day. Afterwards, nothing seems happened to her. When I ask why the rage, she just down play it and shift a little blame on me. The real reason? Nothing really. My son and I were scared. But she will repeat it when time comes. Because -

3. No empathy. She does not has the real feelings for me, or anyone. I just sense there are intimacy issue between us. But she said everything is OK. She said she was satisfied with the relationship. I am working 7 days and tired. No problems for her. She said she was more tired at home. I tried to separate from her and live outside ( dismal condition to save money) to alarm her. No problems. She said I could go back home after 1 year. No big deal. My father died last year. Not a word for condolence from her. Our relationship is not a concern to her even I voiced divorce to her several times. Why she does not want the divorce? Because---

4. Exploitative. Because she needs me for the money and others. She cares more about material things, REAL things, like luxury car, big house, etc. She needs me to provide these. So-

5. Smart. She is smart to select me. I work hard, shows deep commitment to family value, and above all: I am weak and have poor boundary. I was easy to listen to her, to believe her words. I placed a blind trust on her. I have no past experience to have a relationship other than her. She said: I KNOW YOU EVEN WHEN You GIVE A FARCE. She is so smart that all friends are with her in case of divorce. 

But I know something is wrong. The repeatedly rage, the hurtful comment about my intention, the outright disrespect and contempt, the content of status qu, the way she is thinking...

She is NPD.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

my wife is that way, as i just commented on another thread actually. But i dont think she is at the extreme side of having a disorder. 
Just enough to send you through a loop if you aren't paying attention...


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## Gunthar (Sep 2, 2012)

Yes, empathy is a significant issue with my wife. Case in point is over the years when we have had words and she attacked me in some way......I would say is that how you would want me to treat you? She would come back with her classic.....sarcastic...oh, did I hurt your little feelings? She would then dismiss them as irrelevant, childish, grow up and be a man, etc. 

The sad part is she uses this with our kids as well which is part of the reason our oldest, when he turned 18, packed is stuff and literally ran out of the house (yet she still feels he did her wrong after all the years she cared for him, changed his diaper, fed him, took him to the zoo, etc.).

I would think if my wife had some empathy, caring for the people around her that would make it much easier for those people to show affection and communicate better with her. 

Talking with her is like trying to pet a snapping turtle........you know it can bite your finger off at anytime so you do it very cautiously and only for as long as needed...then you run!


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Gunthar said:


> Yes, empathy is a significant issue with my wife. Case in point is over the years when we have had words and she attacked me in some way......I would say is that how you would want me to treat you? She would come back with her classic.....sarcastic...oh, did I hurt your little feelings? She would then dismiss them as irrelevant, childish, grow up and be a man, etc.
> 
> The sad part is she uses this with our kids as well which is part of the reason our oldest, when he turned 18, packed is stuff and literally ran out of the house (yet she still feels he did her wrong after all the years she cared for him, changed his diaper, fed him, took him to the zoo, etc.).
> 
> I would think if my wife had some empathy, caring for the people around her that would make it much easier for those people to show affection and communicate better with her.


Gunthar,

I'm sure things would be better if they weren't the way they are.

My wife emotionally tortured our poor kids with her lack of empathy. But the narcissist acts based on external rather than internal sources. When I turned the temperature way up on my relationship with our kids, constantly kissing and hugging and affirming and encouraging them, my wife couldn't jump on the bandwagon fast enough. Because she lacks a sense of internal regulation, she is way over the top with all this, but that's really not a problem. My point is that what you do has a lot more effect on what your wife does than you might think, especially with her "emotional disability". Resist the desire to feel sorry for yourself and start taking positive action on your own, today, tomorrow and every day.


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## cloudwithleggs (Oct 13, 2011)

Airbus said:


> Apparently I have borderline personality disorder, which is often co-exisiting with NPD. These things are very hard to diagnose, though!
> 
> The symptoms sound accurate though; they also mirror mine, minus the exagerating and the doing anything to look good.
> 
> ...


I find N's have alot of powerful emotions there own basically, i'll give a classic example of lack of showing empathy towards others.

Now my estranged husband knew i was ill and pregnant also he was living in the states and i the uk, i asked him if i was still ill after the baby was born what would he do? he was cold and calculated, he said he'd take my new born baby back to the states, no compassion, no empathy for the baby or myself, that about sums it up, i can tell you now, not one one word did i utter, it physically wrenched me, but he was oblivious of such emotion that it had caused within myself.

They also can have inappropriate emotions example, i hugged our two year old when he hurt himself infront of him thinking nothing of it as it's something i do on a regular basis and my estranged husband he burst out into tears, i did ask why he said it reminded him of his mother.

And the paranoia they exhibit.


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## Gunthar (Sep 2, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Gunthar,
> 
> When I turned the temperature way up on my relationship with our kids, constantly kissing and hugging and affirming and encouraging them, my wife couldn't jump on the bandwagon fast enough.


Wow....thanks for the insight. I did not realize this but I have been doing this recently with our kids (maybe not temperature way up....but warm)....and I have noticed my wife not being so evil to them......

Maybe I should turn the heat up another notch? Thanks


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## cbea1 (Oct 3, 2012)

I feel your suffering I found a couple called Kim and Steve Cooper with online site below and have been doing their programmes/books for past year with good effect. They have been through this same issue together their whole life and discovered how to cope with it by doing alot of research. It's hard to change the way you think though which you will have to do and it takes alot of work mainly on your part (as an NPD sufferer rarely has the insight) but I continue to try as it's the only help I've ever found on this subject and they are the only reason I have not gone completely mad.

Good luck


narcissismcured.com


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

One thing that's difficult for me to comprehend, and maybe it shouldn't be because I was stuck in a similar relationship for 8 years. But now after being out and seeing it from a distance, I just don't understand why you would WANT to stay in that kind of marriage?

Why would you want to stay in a marriage where you are constantly ridiculed? Where they have no empathy or compassion or true love for you? Where you are a pawn to be played in their chess game?

You love them, but they don't love you. They are physically incapable of love. What looks like love is just an act, you can't love someone if you only love yourself. You can't love someone if you can not be empathetic towards them or consider their feelings at all.

It's like a drug addiction......What in the name of life would keep you hooked into that? Especially watching it screw with your kids?


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Just remember, to the narcissist, it's all about appearances. She may be completely incapable of feeling love but she is an expert at observing whether or not other people see what looks like love. When you let people see lots of highly visible acts of affection (and showing other people is probably that last thing on your mind), she becomes fearful that she might appear unloving by comparison and she will rise to the occasion with as much as she can muster.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

COguy said:


> What in the name of life would keep you hooked into that? Especially watching it screw with your kids?


On one of the rare occasions in which I agree with the family court system, only in extreme circumstances would kids be better off without their mother


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## cbea1 (Oct 3, 2012)

I know I'm just as crazy ha? That's part of the problem from what I can gather. Guess because you see their real self alot of the time too and you love them for that but I don't think I could stay if he was full blown NPD. As someone said there is different ends of the scale. It can also often appear after life's stressful events I'm told and Im lead to believe they don't behave as bad when a person they are with is strong, confident and self aware. This is the part I am learning to change in myself and it has actually helped me in my everday life. By becoming less 'co-dependant' I'm supposed to have better equipped myself to go it alone one day, If that's what I decide, and become a much happier stronger person. You never know, it can't hurt trying something new as they say. For now I'm enjoying seeing some positive things come out of it but as I said before at forty three it's very hard to change some ground in thought processes.


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## Gunthar (Sep 2, 2012)

I know many of you cannot understand why I just do not pickup and leave.....well......

I honestly do not know why I keep trying. I know in a CRAZY kind of way I still love my wife. I do see hints of what could be deep down in her......I guess I am holding out to bring this out and suppress the bad.

Also, (rip me now)...the kids. Likely the family would be broken up (blended family of 5+kids), school, sports, friends all would be impacted.

Also, well....not a real reason but something that I would have to deal with is as a stay at home Mom, she would rake me in divorce court where likely I would need a second job to stay afloat (already working ~50 hours/week).

Soooo.....try to make it work and avoid all the above......or dive headfirst into the hurricane of divorce? I guess I am looking for the lesser of two evils right now.

Am I thinking of this the right way or wrong??:scratchhead:


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

It's your life. But I've always felt like staying together for the kids was a horrible decision for all parties involved.

I can tell you from personal experience, getting out of that environment was worth every single penny of support I pay.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> On one of the rare occasions in which I agree with the family court system, only in extreme circumstances would kids be better off without their mother


Right, because kids do really well in an environment where one parent constantly belittles them and plays mind games just to suit their own agenda.

Read the forums on kids that grow up in households of PD parents. Think of the kind of mindf*ck they receive, the spouses at least have a choice to stay or leave. Imagine if your own mother gaslighted you.

Constant criticism, lack of empathy. Kids question everything, when that is perceived as criticism and they get raged at, that destroys their spirit. That kind of environment is horrible for children.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Gunthar,
> 
> I'm sure things would be better if they weren't the way they are.
> 
> My wife emotionally tortured our poor kids with her lack of empathy. But the narcissist acts based on external rather than internal sources. When I turned the temperature way up on my relationship with our kids, constantly kissing and hugging and affirming and encouraging them, my wife couldn't jump on the bandwagon fast enough. Because she lacks a sense of internal regulation, she is way over the top with all this, but that's really not a problem. My point is that what you do has a lot more effect on what your wife does than you might think, especially with her "emotional disability". Resist the desire to feel sorry for yourself and start taking positive action on your own, today, tomorrow and every day.


"When I turned the temperature way up on my relationship with our kids, constantly kissing and hugging and affirming and encouraging them, my wife couldn't jump on the bandwagon fast enough."

I will try that. 

"My point is that what you do has a lot more effect on what your wife does than you might think, especially with her "emotional disability"."

Let me try if it is true for my wife. 

Thank you for the insight.


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Gunthar said:


> I know many of you cannot understand why I just do not pickup and leave.....well......
> 
> I honestly do not know why I keep trying. I know in a CRAZY kind of way I still love my wife. I do see hints of what could be deep down in her......I guess I am holding out to bring this out and suppress the bad.
> 
> ...


If you love a NPD, you will feel pain and confused to understand her.

If you treat NPD as object, which is the way she is treating you, you will have fun and confident, and you are in the right place to better understand her. 

MY wife has NPD and is obsessive-compulsive about cleanness. I used to spoil her and feed her superiority by obey her rules and pay excessive attention to cleanness. I was labeled disrespectfully by her the dirty one anyway. Now, this is how I teach her a lesson to lower her sense of superiority and control: I deliberately break the rule and walk to upstairs with my shoes on, which will trigger her rage. She will open the window, shouting and crying so loudly that a neighbor called 911 once. I will be very frightened but I can hold on. Calmly escape for 3 hours and go back without shoes. Then I will be conciliatory, and touch her gently. She will be raging and screaming to dearth again for the touch (how dare can you touch me after annoying me!) and finally break down( As long as I can be cool and win the game of chicken). After this episode, the next day, she will calm down like nothing happened (typical for NPD). I will discuss her on what did she feel and hopefully let she be aware what a ridiculous reaction she had. I hope I can teach her to low down her sense of superiority and control and help her to be normal person, at least in the raging part.


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## heavensangel (Feb 12, 2012)

Gunthar said:


> --Reacting to criticism with anger (always)
> --Taking advantage of others to reach their own goals (yep)
> --Exaggerating their own importance, achievements, and talents (just ask the kids on this one)
> --Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance (always talking this way)
> ...


This describes my Mother in Law to a 'T'


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

I've subscribed to narcissism cured and have read books about it. I understand it is due to improper attachment as a child. They suffer from psychic injury because of not bonding with their mother as they should have. It is sad really and I can't help but feel sorry for them. My husband has so many problems with people. He is just so abrasive that he cannot be very intimate with others so it keeps up the cycle. He is in a perpetual state of playing alone and not WITH others. His mother is narcissistic and I can't imagine growing up with a mother like that.


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

Maybe one reason I have dealt with it for so long is because I'm the exact opposite. I have too much emotion and empathy. Probably due to improper attachment also, but I went the opposite direction with it. I am hyper sensitive. I put myself in others shoes and it is just as natural for me as it is for him to not be able to do so. I've often thought we make up for each others weaknesses. I do my best to bring out emotion in him and to show him the other side of a situation and he tries to ground me when my emotions are ruling me. Kinda toxic and sad, but true.


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## Gunthar (Sep 2, 2012)

dixieangel said:


> I've subscribed to narcissism cured and have read books about it. I understand it is due to improper attachment as a child. They suffer from psychic injury because of not bonding with their mother as they should have. It is sad really and I can't help but feel sorry for them. My husband has so many problems with people. He is just so abrasive that he cannot be very intimate with others so it keeps up the cycle. He is in a perpetual state of playing alone and not WITH others. His mother is narcissistic and I can't imagine growing up with a mother like that.


Sounds like we are in a very similar situation.

My wife has not had contact with her mother to any significant degree since she left at age 17. Her mother was highly abusive and my wife is resentful for the things she did...or did not do. Her mother degraded her...the one quote my wife keeps repeating that her mother said to her....."you will never amount to anything".

Maybe her mother has NPD.....can it be genetic?


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

The problem with your approach Dixie is that it assumes that by you leading by example, the NPD is learning from your behavior.

It's not factual. People with PD's do not think the same way as you. They can copy what you do and learn how a person "should" act, but it will always be that, an act. They will never love others the way you do. They will never have true empathy. It's a wasted effort.

What really helped me was reading the book Emotional Vampires. It opened my eyes that you really can not try to understand what these people think. If you try to understand their motives you will end up confused and disturbed. They are not the same species as you, consider them androids, a different substance that has the appearance of a normal person.

It's the typical codependent behavior that has us believe that if we only work hard enough, do enough, act loving enough, that they will come around and be the person that we know they "could" be. That's why it's almost a given that the SO of a person with a PD is codependent. A normal healthy person would say, "This person is crazy, why would I stick around." As codependents we get sucked into the addiction of being needed. Then we make the other person's shortcomings our problems to fix.

It is neither healthy or practical. You could be Mother Theresa, it will not alter the other person's behavior. You are not responsible for fixing your partner's NPD, or changing their behavior, or making them a loving parent. You CAN'T fix that, it is not possible to fix someone else's thought pattern.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Gunthar said:


> IMHO the real problem is that while I have stepped up and acknowledged I have contributed to the marriage problems....and am actively doing things about it, she refuses to take any REAL responsibility (few times she says she is not perfect...but it does not too much father) as in her eyes the problem lies with me, the kids, the family, the teachers, etc. For this reason I was looking to figure out why she keeps believing she has done only good in the marriage/family while everyone around her has tried to undermine her efforts.
> 
> So the way I view it right now is that no matter what positive changes people make around her, if she does have problems that she refuses to acknowledge.........then what does that mean to me? the kids? The future?
> 
> BTW, when I mentioned NPD....this is just a guess to explain her actions. The counselor only knows my side of the story as she refuses to go (she has no problems to share). Her family who have suggested this know her side much better and still think this is a possibility......no professional diagnosis yet (unless I drag her to the doctors).


My ex refused to go as well saying he only had a bad temper and he could work on that but there wasn't anything "wrong" with him. I gave it three more years after that before leaving. 

He is not abusive to our daughter but he was VERY hard on her. She was playing house at age 3 and put the mustard in the coat closet - her 'fridge' - and he spanked her for intentionally ruining his sandwich he was making by taking it. If she made noise while on the phone he crushed the toy. No one makes honest mistakes in his world - they are intentional actions against him, even a toddler.

She doesn't seem to remember any of this (I left when she was 4) - now he is SuperDad and he sees her as an extension of himself and therefore equally admirable and fawns over her, compliments her, constantly tells her he is proud of her (but not for a reason - for simply existing)... I try to ground her without hurting her self esteem and when I compliment her I am careful to give a very specific REASON. It's tricky. I don't want her to turn out like him.

Previous custody he was ordered to attend counseling sessions to improve co-parenting. When the counselor testified on by behalf in court round #2, he said I "paid her off" to say what she did. Again, it's never his actions or his fault. 

I didn't have a diagnosis until I asked for a court ordered psych eval during custody proceddings (the third time) where he painted himself as the perfect parent and myself as downright unsafe. I'm sure he thinks I someone lied/manipulated/bribed this completely independent appointed psychologist as well.

It is a constant struggle dealing with him. He is still critical of every parenting move I make, has frequently called DSS/CPS to the point that they acknowledge there is no basis for investigating the allegations but they are required by law - I know the routine - let the look at the house, her room, food in the pantry and fridge, talk to her outside of my hearing, talk to me alone, write up the report and leave. I live in a glass house, which I don't mind but am tired of being constantly second guessed on every decision I make as it relates to our daughter. I'm glad his time is limited with her but it's sad, too.

With what you have described, this is your future. I'm sorry.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Gunthar said:


> Sounds like we are in a very similar situation.
> 
> My wife has not had contact with her mother to any significant degree since she left at age 17. Her mother was highly abusive and my wife is resentful for the things she did...or did not do. Her mother degraded her...the one quote my wife keeps repeating that her mother said to her....."you will never amount to anything".
> 
> Maybe her mother has NPD.....can it be genetic?


It's not genetic BUT the root is severe insecurity which they fight with a faux superiority and will never let that facade down.

So that certainly impacted her greatly. Also its' been found a lot of people with NPD did not bond properly with anyone as a child which also has a huge impact on self esteem. My ex was adopted at 8 months old. We never knew why/what happened those first 8 months - was he abused and taken away from his birth mother? He was in foster care when adopted. I think this is the root of his esteem issues and therefore NPD.

So constant criticism and if her mother was NPD, likely did NOT bond properly with her, exacerbating the problem resulted in a person with low self worth who fakes high self worth out of severe insecurity. I've never heard of anyone being able to be 'broken down' to face their true issues to deal with the root of the problem.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

I'm sorry about your daughter Enjoli, I'm glad you left that environment.

That super dad act is just as scary as angry dad. So she's his little extension, everything she does is the bee's knees. Hooray little princess can do no wrong. And then she gets a B on her test and she is the scum of the earth, how could she do this to him???

The mind f*ck that would do to a little kid, it pisses me off so bad...


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

Gunthar...my husband's mother would say the same things to him..she's just horrible. She's also all alone in her old age. I'm sure you and I would have a lot to talk about. I agree with enjoli woman that it isn't genetic. It was a psychic injury. I can't tell you how many times I've thanked my lucky stars I don't have children with him.

COguy...I know I am codependent. I know all too well that I have a thing about being needed. I've actually voiced it before..that I want to be needed. I've also read somewhere that being needed is the greatest joy. The truth is, I have psychic injury myself and need a good counselor. Working on finding one because the two I've seen were no help to me. I've been encouraged to find a clinical pyschologist. In the meantime, I come here and another forum to vent and find support. I'd rather not talk to family and friends about these things.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Gunthar said:


> My wife has not had contact with her mother to any significant degree since she left at age 17. Her mother was highly abusive and my wife is resentful for the things she did...or did not do. Her mother degraded her...the one quote my wife keeps repeating that her mother said to her....."you will never amount to anything".


Now we're getting somewhere. To the extent you can encourage your wife to face her childhood injuries and forgive her parent(s) for the wrongs they have done to her, you will be helping her get on a path toward healing.

Was either parent was an alcoholic or drug addict? How about grandparents? For sure, a parent with dysfunctional personality traits will model these traits for their children. Sometimes, their appearance in the child doesn't occur until after the child gets married or it can even wait until after the child has their own children.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

dixieangel said:


> Gunthar...my husband's mother would say the same things to him..she's just horrible. She's also all alone in her old age. I'm sure you and I would have a lot to talk about. I agree with enjoli woman that it isn't genetic. It was a psychic injury. I can't tell you how many times I've thanked my lucky stars I don't have children with him.
> 
> COguy...I know I am codependent. I know all too well that I have a thing about being needed. I've actually voiced it before..that I want to be needed. I've also read somewhere that being needed is the greatest joy. The truth is, I have psychic injury myself and need a good counselor. Working on finding one because the two I've seen were no help to me. I've been encouraged to find a clinical pyschologist. In the meantime, I come here and another forum to vent and find support. I'd rather not talk to family and friends about these things.


Try coda.org . They have meetups all over, it can be really helpful to get support from people that have already gone through it. Very empowering to see people that took action from their circumstance and how their lives have changed.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

"He is not abusive to our daughter but he was VERY hard on her. She was playing house at age 3 and put the mustard in the coat closet - her 'fridge' - and he spanked her for intentionally ruining his sandwich he was making by taking it. If she made noise while on the phone he crushed the toy. No one makes honest mistakes in his world - they are intentional actions against him, even a toddler."

I would sure as heck consider this abusive!


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

My husband has certain things that he sees as making him special..and if you don't have these, you are no good to him.

Number one is work ethic. Work defines him. He is a workaholic and takes pride in being in the same industry and being top dog at it for 25 years.. He brags about his sons that work hard and keep a job. The one that doesn't, he has no use for...doesn't even talk about him at all...

He is a manager and has no sympathy for anyone elses problems or needs. Everything is seen only in how it affects him or the business. It doesn't matter if his employee calls in with 104 fever....he yells at them and wants them to come in anyway...because he would be there sick. Honestly, if I was in a car wreck or wind up in the hospital, I would have EMS call my mother..not my husband.

Number two is material things. He has a room for his THINGS...and they define him. I think he gets more from them than people.

Three...OCD about cleanliness. Object placement is utmost importance. People, especially kids, that don't put things in proper place annoy him to no end. I have to make sure my kids have their things out of the living room...no backpacks or shoes allowed downstairs...ever.

It is like he lives in a box and only a few are allowed in....if they meet these certain criteria. It is like he is in a small world of his own...

The lack of empathy...he sees things only as they pertain to and affect him...no one elses agenda matters to him AT ALL.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Dixie that makes me sick just reading it... There is a better life out there.


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## LividInTexas (Mar 12, 2014)

COguy...I am the person she is talking about and until you know both sides of the story, please don't judge.


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## LividInTexas (Mar 12, 2014)

The only reason I am on here is because two weeks ago I found out that my wife has been having an affair with another member and tonight I have been reading all the **** they have been posting. Gunthar is married as well so reserve your judgement for the guilty, not me.


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## LividInTexas (Mar 12, 2014)

COguy...dixieangel would rather not talk to family and friends about her issues. A much better alternative is to come on here and unload all her issues on strangers who will fly from Ohio and spend 4 days in a hotel with her making her feel better.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Holy smokes!


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Well we very rarely hear both sides of the story, we all gave advice based on what we heard. If someone on the other side of the internet wants to get advice about a situation that doesn't actually exist, that's their problem.

If what she said is true, you need counseling.

If she was making up lies to justify an affair, you'll need counseling for a different reason.

Either way, sorry your wife cheated, that sucks no matter what the reason.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Wow 

now that IS the other side of the story


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

I know it's not in the context of a relationship, but we had a co-worker with NPD. It was a complete and utter disaster. He alienated virtually all of his colleagues in the first week or two. I initially tried giving him the benefit of the doubt but all my interactions with him were unpleasant. He did no work because he thought he was too important. He was convinced he was more intelligent and capable than everyone else, which clearly he was not. Eventually he got fired for some undisclosed reason. 

Now that I've seen this kind of person once, I plan on having no patience with it if it ever happens again.


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## married tech (Jan 18, 2014)

> He did no work because he thought he was too important. He was convinced he was more intelligent and capable than everyone else, which clearly he was not. Eventually he got fired for some undisclosed reason.


That sounds like my last boss!


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## kitty2013 (Dec 6, 2013)

LividInTexas said:


> The only reason I am on here is because two weeks ago I found out that my wife has been having an affair with another member and tonight I have been reading all the **** they have been posting. Gunthar is married as well so reserve your judgement for the guilty, not me.


The affair is 100% her fault, but I am wondering if you agree with what she described about you.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

trilobite said:


> I know it's not in the context of a relationship, but we had a co-worker with NPD. It was a complete and utter disaster. He alienated virtually all of his colleagues in the first week or two. I initially tried giving him the benefit of the doubt but all my interactions with him were unpleasant. He did no work because he thought he was too important. He was convinced he was more intelligent and capable than everyone else, which clearly he was not. Eventually he got fired for some undisclosed reason.
> 
> Now that I've seen this kind of person once, I plan on having no patience with it if it ever happens again.


You got off easy if you recognized it.

A lot of people with NPD are charmers.

A lot of people in senior positions of authority have NPD.


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

COguy said:


> A lot of people with NPD are charmers.


Oh, no. He was no charmer. He was a total ****.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> I would normally agree with you on lay diagnoses being counter-productive, but in the case of NPD it's the only diagnosis he'll be likely to get if she does have the disorder. Since his counselor also believes she has NPD, I think it could be harmful to minimize it and say she "just" has narcissistic traits, because someone with NPD is never going to change and could be dangerous to the OP and/or his children.


KB - 
I didn't realize you are a professional counselor. I had reason a few years ago to take up personal interest in PDs. what I concluded from what I read, was that a person with NPD is simply not, as we say, "marriage material." i.e. there is no 'match' for them out there, unless someone chooses to expose themselves to the destructive and nearly untreatable traits of an NPD. and of course some NPD are capable of murder.....literally.

comments??


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## LividInTexas (Mar 12, 2014)

Kitty, some of it is true, some of it is not. Some of it is embellished and some is right on. Some is complete BS. Keep in mind that nearly the entire time she was on this site posting about me, she was talking to him as well, so take what you read with a grain of salt. A lot of it was in reaction to her constant verbal abuse and I just withdrew which made her angrier which turned into online time with him.


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## DarkHoly (Dec 18, 2012)

LividInTexas said:


> Kitty, some of it is true, some of it is not. Some of it is embellished and some is right on. Some is complete BS. Keep in mind that nearly the entire time she was on this site posting about me, she was talking to him as well, so take what you read with a grain of salt. A lot of it was in reaction to her constant verbal abuse and I just withdrew which made her angrier which turned into online time with him.


When this kind of thing happens I count it all as a lie. She leaves out some things, embellishes on others and will sometimes include single truths, but all of it is in a certain order and place to convey one single notion that is untrue. It's a huge diabolical machine, and one "truth" is only a single component. I've seen so many women do this it's not even creative anymore.


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