# 5 year relationship lost



## zildjian_4

Hello, I originally posted this in the divorce and separation section but as I'm a christian, I would also like a Christian viewpoint.

I'll start from the top because this is a very complex story and situation.

I am Canadian and met my girlfriend in Brazil 5 years ago. We instantly started Skyping as soon as I was back in Canada, and over the past 5 years, we have lived in eachothers countries on and off. She came to Canada from January to May this year trying to get a job here because we were going to get married. 

She ended up going back to Brazil because she couldnt find work and couldnt just sit around doing nothing. DUring those 4 months, it was incredible, I mean.. I often faintly welled up thinking how perfect life was. I mean, we were GREAT! She left, and in the airport we talked on the phone while she waited for her flight at the gate. She said that she was just going back to Brazil, get a few months of experience, and then come back here to work or study until we get married. The next few months were great even though it was long distance.. we were just..head over heels, and this is almost 4 years into the relationship, it wasnt first day butterflies.. 

In midseptember she began to grow distant. Our internet connection was horrendous, and we would sometimes have to redail 10 times just to try and talk for half an hour. It was unbearable. When I confronted her nicely about growing distant and asking what was wrong.. she said that she was having doubts about everything..me..career..moving to the other side of the world. SHe confessed that she had an emotional attachment with a guy from work. SHe confided in him about her doubts for me and he took advantage of that and tried to lure her in. She was very sorry and hated herself for it. She has always been a girl with low self esteem even though shes great and beautiful, and I alwas tried to build that up in her. 

I ended up flying down there for an emergency 10 day trip and it really helped things. She was very affectionate, and after the first few days passed we were crazy about eachother. She sat on my lap in the park with tears in her eyes and said "baby Im so sorry, I remember you now... you're my man". The rest of the trip was magical.. perfect.. but we still decided to let things go because she still wanted some space to think. She said "___, I promise you I will be good, I am so sure now that the only thing I want is time to think, no one else". She ended up quitting her job right after I left in order to be away from the guy who she had the emotional attachment to.. 

Over the next couple weeks, she was contacting me on and off, sending mixed messages.. sometimes it was "Im listening to our song", other times it was "I hope youre doing ok there. I truly want you to be happy." Sunday I set up a skype call with her to end the contact. I told her that I had to move on and it strings me on if she contacts me like that. She was absolutely DEVASTATED.. DISTRAUGHT. She was crying beyond control, shaking, saying she was numb..saying I was the best thing to ever happen to her, I was her angel, she loves me, etc etc... She called back after again and sent me a million messages asking to talk.. so I caved out of concern and answered.. she was so upset.. we finished the talk and I called her back at 10 canada time(1 am brazil time) and said I was mad that she had that emotional affair, yet still broke up with me and is now still upset.. i was just angry, and I didnt know why.. The next morning I got just a sad face as a text message.. then tuesday went by..and wednesday I got these voicemails.. 9 minutes worth.. of her saying how tough the past few days was, and has been crying constantly, and hasnt been sleeping, and when she does she wakes up and cries and wishes it was all a dream.. She said deep down she wants to get back together, but is afraid of her unstable emotions right now. She says "I want to come running back to your arms because youre my man, and you make me feel soo safe". and so on and so on.. she said she just wanted to know if I had heard the messages and didnt have to talk.. but i called her that night to talk about the messages.. and hinted a lot that she should just come to canada to work on us(she said she was considering it a lot, but didnt, again because she was afraid that if she didnt take time to figure out what she wants, she may be unstable and uncertain in the future). 

That was the last time we talked.. and I walked away from it feeling like I gave back the control to her, because it was way too obvious that I would just take her back and am always going to be available. Yesterday I put a facebook status up saying "friends, heres my number, Im deleting my facebook tonight".. seconds before I actually deactivated it that night, she liked my status and then sent a "poke".. obviously to get my attention..

The past 36 hours has been the worst.. I wish I didnt reply to her messages Wednesday... my friends say Im paving the way for her to move on.. Anyways, shes obviously missing me,..and her messages are genuine. Im her first boyfriend, she was 17 when we started dating and is now 22. I was planning on proposing at Christmas in brazil(I was originally supposed to go there friday). 

I just don't know what to do at alll... Everyone says move on, if she hasnt come back now she probably wont.. or...move on anyways, she needs time and if she comes back you can decide later.. but I want to work on us, we had 10 days to try and fix a 5 year relationship.. not sure thats enough time. Does anyone have advice for me? Anything would be appreciated.

It's tough to be so far away... if I cant ask her to come back, then there is literally nothing I can do. The 180 rules doesnt really work for us.. Basically its contact or nothing at all.


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## RoninJedi

I understand your feelings in the matter, believe it or not (been there, done that myself), but the simple fact is that this girl is...well...a girl. She is completely emotionally unstable and it sounds like she's unsure about pretty much everything.

That's completely understandable, don't get me wrong. I can't imagine what I'd be going through if packing up and leaving everything I've ever known for an entirely different country became a real possibility. But it's not fair to you that she drags you along through this while she plays "What Do I Want Today".

I agree she needs time to think, but the bottom line is that she needs that time to think without you. You're a distraction. As long as you two are in contact, she'll be going around in circles. Granted, she might keep doing that anyway, but at least then you won't be taken along for the ride.

I think you need to end all contact and tell her that when she makes up her mind, to let you know. But you need to be clear that this will entail some serious time - that doesn't mean contacting you three or four times a week. That means zero contact until she *can* figure out what she wants and then going from there.

I won't say move on just yet, because it seems like you both have (and have had) strong feelings that are very real. But I will say keep your distance, and be prepared to move one.


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## zildjian_4

RoninJedi said:


> I understand your feelings in the matter, believe it or not (been there, done that myself), but the simple fact is that this girl is...well...a girl. She is completely emotionally unstable and it sounds like she's unsure about pretty much everything.
> 
> That's completely understandable, don't get me wrong. I can't imagine what I'd be going through if packing up and leaving everything I've ever known for an entirely different country became a real possibility. But it's not fair to you that she drags you along through this while she plays "What Do I Want Today".
> 
> I agree she needs time to think, but the bottom line is that she needs that time to think without you. You're a distraction. As long as you two are in contact, she'll be going around in circles. Granted, she might keep doing that anyway, but at least then you won't be taken along for the ride.
> 
> I think you need to end all contact and tell her that when she makes up her mind, to let you know. But you need to be clear that this will entail some serious time - that doesn't mean contacting you three or four times a week. That means zero contact until she *can* figure out what she wants and then going from there.
> 
> I won't say move on just yet, because it seems like you both have (and have had) strong feelings that are very real. But I will say keep your distance, and be prepared to move one.


Wow,thank you.

I guess Ive always considering it "cold feet" before the wedding, but instead before the engagement. Not only does she have to decide who she is going to marry right now, she has to decide where she will live(can she move 9000 miles and away from everything shes ever known?) and what she will do(her career plans are kind of collapsing under her feet)... Needless to say, she has some HUGE pressure to deal with, and vented about it a few times n OCtober and November. 

Pure curiousity, why do you think we need to be apart while she thinks? Many have said that already but I never really understoof how I was a distraction.. I figured that if I dissappear like I have for the past week, she would forget about me, move on, and either not remember me enough to know if its worth it to move here, or, move on and not even care about the whole thing. 

As for your last point - I have told her that we can't talk until she figures out what she wants. She told me wednesday when she called crying that her mom told her "___, you cant go looking for brad until you are 100% sure and go there to ask him to marry you, and be ready to hear a no." I agree, but I also dont, we cant just come off this and get engaged, we will need time to work on us, do counseling, etc.


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## LostViking

She sounds very immature. 

Even if you two do eventually hook up and make it work, will she be stable enough to be a good wife to you? Would she be able to make a life in Canada so far from her family. Latin families are extremely close. Would she be able to handle homesickness, coupled with culture shock? She already tried it once and it did not work out. 

I think you are fighting an uphill battle and all the tires on your jeep are punctured. 

Given her emotionalism, wavering, going back and forth, I would venture to guess that her EA with the other man was much more. I would not be surprised if it went physical and stayed physical while the two of you were separated. I think that is where her guilt and emotionalism is coming from. I would not be surprised if her relationship with him was still going even when you went down to visit her.

My advice to you is pray about it, but I think you already know what you have to do.


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## zildjian_4

LostViking said:


> She sounds very immature.
> 
> Even if you two do eventually hook up and make it work, will she be stable enough to be a good wife to you? Would she be able to make a life in Canada so far from her family. Latin families are extremely close. Would she be able to handle homesickness, coupled with culture shock? She already tried it once and it did not work out.
> 
> I think you are fighting an uphill battle and all the tires on your jeep are punctured.
> 
> Given her emotionalism, wavering, going back and forth, I would venture to guess that her EA with the other man was much more. I would not be surprised if it went physical and stayed physical while the two of you were separated. I think that is where her guilt and emotionalism is coming from. I would not be surprised if her relationship with him was still going even when you went down to visit her.
> 
> My advice to you is pray about it, but I think you already know what you have to do.


The thing is, she tried it once, and it worked, she was in her glory here, to the point of repetitive video diaries, notes, emails etc to hold on to keep us strong over the next long period of distance. Looking back at the messages, she was so certain, she was only going back to brazil to get work experience so she could get a job here because no one was interested without experience. 

As for the affair, it couldnt have been going while I was there because I was always with her, when I go there I live at her place with her family. The day after I left she quit her job where the guy was because she couldnt handle being reminded of him.. I havent talked to her much lately, and NC for the last week, but if she has been a distraught as she said she was last wednesday, and (this was confirmed by her dad, they sent her to a psychologist), then I highly doubt she could handle being with another guy.. However...as time goes by... I begin to worry that she has just moved on and forgot about me.


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## mablenc

Seems like she can't even handle herself, she sounds unbalanced. It is good that she is not in a relationship in this case. 

And frankly I don't think you're either. You seem to ignore everything that everyone tells you. If you don't have friends locally go make some. Engage more win your coworkers, your church (you mentioned you are religuos).


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## zildjian_4

mablenc said:


> Seems like she can't even handle herself, she sounds unbalanced. It is good that she is not in a relationship in this case.
> 
> And frankly I don't think you're either. You seem to ignore everything that everyone tells you. If you don't have friends locally go make some. Engage more win your coworkers, your church (you mentioned you are religuos).


Well, usually I'm much more stable than this. I've always considered myself a confident guy that knows exactly what he wants. I don't disregard advice because I disagree with it. I appreciate all of the advice very much, but it's one thing to simply agree with someones advice, and another to actually implement it in real life and let go of your love. That's where Im having such an excruciating time and why it seems that Im ignoring advice..


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## mablenc

She's letting go of you, you seem to not want to realize this. She's gone, you can't guilt her, it's very cruel to do that to a person. It's manipulation. 

I know you want someone to tell you to send her text, call her, go, but no reasonable person has or will tell you that. That's all I have to offer, good luck.


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## zildjian_4

mablenc said:


> She's letting go of you, you seem to not want to realize this. She's gone, you can't guilt her, it's very cruel to do that to a person. It's manipulation.
> 
> I know you want someone to tell you to send her text, call her, go, but no reasonable person has or will tell you that. That's all I have to offer, good luck.


How do you know shes letting go?


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## Decorum

I don't want to speak for Mablenc, so I am just sharing my perspective.

A woman will move heaven and earth to keep a relationship she wants, period.

It's counter-intuitive to a man but a woman needs to cry through a separation, she will reminisce about good memories, cry and hug when you say "I will miss your smile", it will seem like she never wants to let go of the hug.

But she is done, the decision has been made, she is closing the emotional checking account. (Oh and she may always want to think of you as a friend, even maintain occasional contact if possible, it does not mean she hopes to rekindle one day, not at all!)


After a good cry and a goodbye she will be more confident and determined and focused on the task at hand (separating).


It does sound like she cares for you but all the changes required are a deal breaker for her, and she is still so young and uncertain where she wants her life to go.

Do not change your life to try to keep her, if you do, it will only be worse 10 years from now, trust me.
(Remember she put distance between the two of you, that means something, its an example of what is going on in her heart.)

If she is ever ready to make a commitment then you have something to work with, but don't wait around to find out, that would be pathetic, and I do think you are more of a man then that, judging from what you have posted.

Love can make the best of us pathetic at times.

The take away is, an intense display of emotion from a woman can be easily misunderstood for something it isn't.

I wish you well, Take care!


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## zildjian_4

Decorum said:


> I don't want to speak for Mablenc, so I am just sharing my perspective.
> 
> A woman will move heaven and earth to keep a relationship she wants, period.
> 
> It's counter-intuitive to a man but a woman needs to cry through a separation, she will reminisce about good memories, cry and hug when you say "I will miss your smile", it will seem like she never wants to let go of the hug.
> 
> But she is done, the decision has been made, she is closing the emotional checking account. (Oh and she may always want to think of you as a friend, even maintain occasional contact if possible, it does not mean she hopes to rekindle one day, not at all!)
> 
> 
> After a good cry and a goodbye she will be more confident and determined and focused on the task at hand (separating).
> 
> 
> It does sound like she cares for you but all the changes required are a deal breaker for her, and she is still so young and uncertain where she wants her life to go.
> 
> Do not change your life to try to keep her, if you do, it will only be worse 10 years from now, trust me.
> (Remember she put distance between the two of you, that means something, its an example of what is going on in her heart.)
> 
> If she is ever ready to make a commitment then you have something to work with, but don't wait around to find out, that would be pathetic, and I do think you are more of a man then that, judging from what you have posted.
> 
> Love can make the best of us pathetic at times.
> 
> The take away is, an intense display of emotion from a woman can be easily misunderstood for something it isn't.
> 
> I wish you well, Take care!


Thanks for your reply. As tough as it is to swallow, I'll keep reading it as I try and figure all this out. 

She was the one who initiated the break up, but kept contacting me saying how she was so confused and didn't know if she actually wanted to be apart, and that i am the best thing in her life and doesn't want to let go of that..etc. She kept contact for a couple weeks, before I had discovered these boards and realized that I needed to go NC with her. So when i cut it off, yes, she cried, hysterically, and for the next 3 days that I know, even up until our last call last Wednesday, she was crying..and said "baby, this is so hard, I don't know what I want, life with you is so guaranteed and you make me feel so safe, but I cant come running back and get all confused again because its not fair to you. i need to figure out my life and myself before I do that." And that right there, is what has kept me around, and is making me have such an incredibly difficult time letting go because I feel like she truly doesn't know, and is at least considering. her parents instructed her not to get back together with me even if she wanted to, until she was more emotionally stable. 

Yes, she is young, but even up until September, she was 100% sure about moving here..and then she had a few doubts which in my opinion are normal for a 21 year old(at the time) who is deciding who to marry, which country to live in, and what to do for a career. the problem was that she vented to a friend at work, and that friend became an EA due to how close they got because of it. It sure doesnt help that he was hitting on her and trying to talk her out of being with me. Anyways, Im just venting right now.. and for those people accusing me of ignoring advice, I appologize, I'd love to simply just say "ya thats it! ill just let her go right away!", but its not that easy for me yet.


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## Decorum

I think you are doing fine. Men process their emotions differently than a woman and they play a different role in a mans decision making.

Some women tend to look at their emotions as a Talisman, Oracle and a Compass (i.e. protection, prediction, direction), add in some immaturity in an uncertain circumstance, and you have an unstable mess.

Once a woman's emotions are onboard with her thinking they unusually stick to their plan. They also tend to get there faster.

I think your partner is still weighing it emotionally but her mind is made up.

Did the EA show her that the grass is greener? 

More likely it made her doubt herself, something along these lines "If I am really in love with "ZJ" how can I develop feelings for doouchebag EA, maybe in the future I will not be happy with ZJ and I will feel trapped."

(She does sound vulnerable to other men's attention and that is a dangerous character flaw. You think it hurts now, go read in CWI what the betrayed spouses say after 10years of marriage and 2 kids when the wife cheats.)

She does not want to commit until she is sure. Of course commitment always includes some risk, conversely being committed also always means working at something to make it a good.

Women like to say they are "complicated" look at this thread to see how that works out...
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/149201-lady-tire-tracks-her-karma-bus.html

Your GF has every right to reconsider, and have some peace about her decision. She may come around but you have to respect her enough to let her make the decision.

At some point you may need to go no contact and move on. If you pursue her you may drive her away.

If you are confident and moving forward I think it is you best chance of her coming after you.

Here is a quote from another thread...
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-c...say-they-like-passionate-men.html#post5941425




Anon Pink said:


> There are dozens of reasons why a wife who previously was sexually attracted to her H has lost it. Some are his fault, some are her fault, some are no ones fault. And the thing that make me feel so sorry for men... In some marriages the very thing a man doesn't do to cause his wife to lose it, is the very thing in another marriage that that husband does do that causes his wife to lose it.
> 
> I think the snappy term is too much beta, or not enough beta. And sometimes, he just got fat, or she got too fat.
> 
> Women are complicated. Sorry, but it is what it is.


Don't read to much into that last one, I think its just interesting.

You have to be who you are and let her choose you.

But don't wait around, this is a chance for personal growth and that will pay off big in any relationship.

Take care!


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## zildjian_4

Decorum said:


> I think your partner is still weighing it emotionally but her mind is made up.
> 
> Did the EA show her that the grass is greener?
> 
> More likely it made her doubt herself, something along these lines "If I am really in love with "ZJ" how can I develop feelings for doouchebag EA, maybe in the future I will not be happy with ZJ and I will feel trapped."
> 
> (She does sound vulnerable to other men's attention and that is a dangerous character flaw. You think it hurts now, go read in CWI what the betrayed spouses say after 10years of marriage and 2 kids when the wife cheats.)
> 
> Your GF has every right to reconsider, and have some peace about her decision. She may come around but you have to respect her enough to let her make the decision.
> 
> At some point you may need to go no contact and move on. If you pursue her you may drive her away.
> 
> If you are confident and moving forward I think it is you best chance of her coming after you.
> 
> You have to be who you are and let her choose you.
> 
> But don't wait around, this is a chance for personal growth and that will pay off big in any relationship.
> 
> Take care!


Thanks again for such an indepth reply!

She said that the EA made her doubt her love for me. She knows I'm a far better man, and much more attractive(which I have to agree with, 7 hours a week in the gym and a surplus crossfit diet makes you look like a greek sculpture) She kept saying, "I cant believe that I let myself do that. I always looked at cheaters as such losers, and now I did what I thought I could never do."

I fully believe it had to do with her low self esteem, she says that too. That is something that we have been working on together for the past 4.5 years. Se was doing 100000x better than when we began dating.. She became a classy woman with more direction, but I think the combo of us being apart longer than usual and a quick dip in self esteem led to her accepting attention. 


As of last sunday, we already went NC. And then I got the call of desperation and tears and being so afraid of losing me etc etc... The only "connection" since that wednesday was that when i announced on fb that i was shutting down my account, she liked my profile pic and sent a 'Poke', clearly to get my attention. I dont really have any other options.. its not like we live together and I can show her that im doing well, or at least continuing on.. she has no idea how im doing, and vice versa. Although they say "do it for yourself", right now, Im still crazy about her and miss her and I'm trying to attract her back to me. Desperation was my biggest mistake and if I could cut that out, I would be much better, as I was at the beginning of the relationship.


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## Decorum

zildjian_4 said:


> I fully believe it had to do with her low self esteem, she says that too. That is something that we have been working on together for the past 4.5 years. Se was doing 100000x better than when we began dating.. She became a classy woman with more direction, but I think the combo of us being apart longer than usual and a quick dip in self esteem led to her accepting attention.
> 
> 
> Although they say "do it for yourself", right now, Im still crazy about her and miss her and I'm trying to attract her back to me. Desperation was my biggest mistake and if I could cut that out, I would be much better, as I was at the beginning of the relationship.


Thanks I understand better where you are at now.

Limbo is hell! 

You are going through a process with stages, there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

I will say this, if you have worked together on her self esteem over this 4.5 years, and made great progress and now she cheats when you are not with her, reverting back to her needs driven persona, you are seeing your future with her and its ugly (and she knows it).

I have raised 4 kids (youngest just started university) with a wife who has MS, been laid off long term, (working now) am moving to another state and splitting my time between our old home (where my wife is) and our new home (we will be moving here soon) and I will say that my wife is a good person in and of herself. Its been very hard sometimes but I have never had to gin her up and hope she will not cheat.

Your GF does not have the character to be a good long term prospect, what we would call "not marriage material" unless you want to take her up as a project taking full responsibility for her success or failure and placing it on you, because she will not stay true.

You cannot fix or save her, and I doubt you can be perfect enough to keep her.

I know these are hard words and I know that most men will just ignore them and follow their heart, but I have seen it before.

The wives post here and say "I just cheated on the best man and the best thing that has ever happened to me, and I don't know why."

Its usually some woman that married up in quality and some very decent guy that thinks he has found an appreciative princess he can lavish his love upon.

I'm just trying to help you to be a bit more objective about her.
I usually don't post this much so I will make this my last because I don't want to feel like I am trying to push you.

I mean you no disrespect and I do wish you well.
Take care!


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## RoninJedi

zildjian_4 said:


> Pure curiousity, why do you think we need to be apart while she thinks? Many have said that already but I never really understoof how I was a distraction.. I figured that if I dissappear like I have for the past week, she would forget about me, move on, and either not remember me enough to know if its worth it to move here, or, move on and not even care about the whole thing.


I say that because, like you said, she's under a HUGE amount of pressure right now, and has much more to consider than just getting married. You're a distraction to that because as long as you're right there, her thoughts will always be swayed toward you - which can lead to her swaying her opinions without actually weighing all points and options (which is the whole point of this exercise), which can lead to regrets when/if she moves with you, which can lead to downright resentment toward you for not giving her space and time to think.

Yeah, I know - if she's contacting you right now then eventual resentment for not giving her space makes no logical sense. But women (by and large) don't live in a logical world - especially when emotional ties like marriage are involved, not to mention her feelings about leaving her friends, family, familiarity, etc.

Yes, I'll admit that may be a worst-case scenario, but it happens all the time so it's not exactly rare.


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## zildjian_4

Decorum said:


> Thanks I understand better where you are at now.
> 
> Limbo is hell!
> 
> You are going through a process with stages, there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
> 
> I will say this, if you have worked together on her self esteem over this 4.5 years, and made great progress and now she cheats when you are not with her, reverting back to her needs driven persona, you are seeing your future with her and its ugly (and she knows it).
> 
> I have raised 4 kids (youngest just started university) with a wife who has MS, been laid off long term, (working now) am moving to another state and splitting my time between our old home (where my wife is) and our new home (we will be moving here soon) and I will say that my wife is a good person in and of herself. Its been very hard sometimes but I have never had to gin her up and hope she will not cheat.
> 
> Your GF does not have the character to be a good long term prospect, what we would call "not marriage material" unless you want to take her up as a project taking full responsibility for her success or failure and placing it on you, because she will not stay true.
> 
> You cannot fix or save her, and I doubt you can be perfect enough to keep her.
> 
> I know these are hard words and I know that most men will just ignore them and follow their heart, but I have seen it before.
> 
> The wives post here and say "I just cheated on the best man and the best thing that has ever happened to me, and I don't know why."
> 
> Its usually some woman that married up in quality and some very decent guy that thinks he has found an appreciative princess he can lavish his love upon.
> 
> I'm just trying to help you to be a bit more objective about her.
> I usually don't post this much so I will make this my last because I don't want to feel like I am trying to push you.
> 
> I mean you no disrespect and I do wish you well.
> Take care!


I truly, genuinely appreciate your advice, and please dont hold back the messages. Responses like yours really help me. 

A lot of good points that Ill try to reply to..

It's so tough for me to grasp that she may not be marriage material. We see eye to eye on so many things, raising kids, religion, money matters, the way a man and woman should relate to eachother.. She as always had this self esteem issue, and in 2010 wrote me her life story, growing up over weight, being picked on, etc, it's seriously heart breaking.. and it wasn't for attention either, her Dad mentioned a few of the things since she wrote that note. Knowing her past so deeply, and knowing more than anyone else, makes me feel very forgiving, because I have a lot of sympathy.. I cant imagine going through what she went through.. the pressure on girls in Brazil doesnt even compare to the pressure north american girls feel - you see the result of it when you go there. 

Having said that, it makes me want to love her, and be there for her, and lead our relationship. I have grown a love for her that I never knew I was capable of. and from a christian stand point, I believe that she can change.. with Gods grace and will, her heart can be restored. 

Right now, with everything so fresh, I am trying to see more objectively like you said.. I am also trying my best to think rationally about whether or not she is marriage material.. Everything up until now was truly amazing. There werent blah times, we were just great.. I am fully confident that if we tried to work on us, if she gave us a chance, we could pull it all together. But here I am disagreeing and seemingly ignoring your advice about her not being marriage material! I'll try to level out and reread your response. Thank you so much, and please, feel free to write as much as you want.


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## zildjian_4

RoninJedi said:


> I say that because, like you said, she's under a HUGE amount of pressure right now, and has much more to consider than just getting married. You're a distraction to that because as long as you're right there, her thoughts will always be swayed toward you - which can lead to her swaying her opinions without actually weighing all points and options (which is the whole point of this exercise), which can lead to regrets when/if she moves with you, which can lead to downright resentment toward you for not giving her space and time to think.
> 
> Yeah, I know - if she's contacting you right now then eventual resentment for not giving her space makes no logical sense. But women (by and large) don't live in a logical world - especially when emotional ties like marriage are involved, not to mention her feelings about leaving her friends, family, familiarity, etc.
> 
> Yes, I'll admit that may be a worst-case scenario, but it happens all the time so it's not exactly rare.


But whats wrong with her opinion swaying towards me if I would always be there? Just playing the devils advocate..I mean.. people decide everyday who they want to marry when that person is around.. them being around helps with the decision I would have thought. Just trying to ask some provoking questions here to get a better grasp.


----------



## zildjian_4

guess it's time for me to come clean here.. I don't know why I held back info and spent so much time arguing the possibility of a PA - I suppose I was in denial and knew people would tell me to run, and at the beginning, I wanted to get her back.

The EA was more than that. She admitted in early October that she had kissed him once (coworkers bday party.) When I was in Brazil, we had a very emotional talk and she was pulling the whole "I hate myself" crap, and said, I'm sorry but I lied again and thats why I cant be with you, we kissed twice. Also, in midoctober before I went to brazil she came home from work very angry because apparently her girl friend at work(hotel) had started a rumor that the cleaning lady caught her and the OM in one of the rooms. She was so upset, and it kind of baffles me to this day whether its true or not. I guess she is the kind of person to do that now, but, if it was true, why tell me?! It is so easy for her to hide that from me. I dont know anyone from her work, nor could I ever have a friendship with them as Im from another country. So that still makes me wonder.

After I left Brazil, she was quite a mess, and told me that night on Skype when I got back to Canada that the other guy called to see if she was ok, and she said "ya im fine, but I have to go, bye"... Now I suppose I could dismiss that last part as a lie, but if she wanted to hide it, why tell me in the first place that he called? It had hit her that I had left.. she was screaming crying right before we talked (according to her dad). Maybe because she realised that she may have lost me, she was honest in that moment?who knows..

We went communicating on and off for 2 weeks before I found this site. 2 Sundays ago was when I cut contact. The beginning of that call was small talk, and when I asked if she was seeing someone else, she said she would prefer not to say. She was also wearing a bathing suit under her shirt.. and guess who was on vacation at his friends beach house? The other guy. She didnt admit to it being him and told me not to assume. Ha. I'm not dumb. 

I called her later that Sunday night once it sunk in that she had spent the day with him yet was absolutely distraught and having a panic attack when I cut contact. I told her I was so angry, and I was done, but it is not my character to hold grudges. So I dont know, I was hoping that after her distraught display she would appologize perfusely and I would at least feel a little better and less hatred. 

Anyways, the next 3 days goes by, as I mentioned the first post, she calls leaving messages etc saying she has made every decision wrong in the past 3 months.. etc.. still confused yada yada..deep down feels like coming back but cant because its not fair to me because she isnt certain about life in canada yet..No contact since then..

Only recently have I put 2 and 2 together and realised the extent of this affair.. and its a whole new kind of PAIN! Not simply, "I dont know if I can move to Canada"(which is still valid as she mentioned it before in our relationship. Being optimistic, I would assume that after I cut contact, it woke her up and she realised what she lost, and then didnt speak to him anymore.. but I highly doubt that is the case. It makes me sick to think that the girl I was so madly in love with simply can't control her need for attention. She is 22, absolutely, absolutely gorgeous, smart, good family, extremely wealthy family, and she went for the attention of a 33 year old hotel receptionist(this is a below minimum wage job, he couldnt get anything better. she had studied hospitality in brazil and canada and was a receptionist purely for experience as she didnt need the money..) the second he affirmed to her that she was beautiful and would find someone else if me and her didnt work out. 

Maybe all the horror stories on here made me assume the worst in my case, or maybe it woke me up. I guess that's something I will never know. 

Now, throughout the relationship, we did our best to focus on god, we read the bibl together a few times a month(this is over skype, not so easy) and prayed quite often together, right up until the last time we talked. She is a woman who wants God and to have a Godly man but let's her selfish desires and desperate need for attention ruin her life. 

I appologize to all of you for not being honest at the start.. I was in denial and felt as if I could not bear the word "RUN!".


----------



## Decorum

*So you withheld information from a bunch of anonymous people on the interned for fear of what they might say but went on to ask them for advice, really?

Here let me fulfill your worst nightmare so you can face your fear...RUN!

zildjian_4 I am also a Christian, I have worked with needy Christian people for many years.

I can tell you from my experience that your expectation that Christian's who read the Bible and talk about putting God first etc, that they will walk in a worthy manner, ...etc, is unrealistic and idealistic, period.

It is a matter of personal virtue/character, not a matter of faith.

People of character know better than to get to close to a compromising situation for themselves.

If a person has some kink in their character no amount of faith will straighten it out, only God disciplining them (i.e. consequences), and so combined with faith in that process, MAY make a change, and it takes a long time.

James 1:2
"Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 
And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing".

Do you not see that you brought the virtue to your relationship, your convictions not hers'. 

Do you want to be her backbone for the rest of your relationship? Only to find out that she "slipped" and betrayed you again?

You found a beautiful girl, with a personality you loved, that seemed very compatible, but you idealized her and your future together.

Can you see the pattern here? You don't want to face the truth with this board (TAM) or your relationship. This is fear based and not truth based.

My guess is that if the two of you could honestly face yourselves you may not be a compatible as you believe. At the moment it appears to be a compatibility of co-dependency.

You have to work on not living out of fear.

Proverbs 28:1 The wicked flee when no one is pursuing, But the righteous are bold as a lion. (i.e. not afraid of the truth)

I just wanted to give you a few things to think about.*


Now regarding these...


zildjian_4 said:


> Also, in midoctober before I went to brazil she came home from work very angry because apparently her girl friend at work(hotel) had started a rumor that the cleaning lady caught her and the OM in one of the rooms. She was so upset, and it kind of baffles me to this day whether its true or not. I guess she is the kind of person to do that now, but, if it was true, why tell me?! It is so easy for her to hide that from me. I dont know anyone from her work, nor could I ever have a friendship with them as Im from another country. So that still makes me wonder.
> 
> After I left Brazil, she was quite a mess, and told me that night on Skype when I got back to Canada that the other guy called to see if she was ok, and she said "ya im fine, but I have to go, bye"... Now I suppose I could dismiss that last part as a lie, but if she wanted to hide it, why tell me in the first place that he called? It had hit her that I had left.. she was screaming crying right before we talked (according to her dad). Maybe because she realised that she may have lost me, she was honest in that moment?who knows..
> 
> We went communicating on and off for 2 weeks before I found this site. 2 Sundays ago was when I cut contact. The beginning of that call was small talk, and when I asked if she was seeing someone else, she said she would prefer not to say. She was also wearing a bathing suit under her shirt.. and guess who was on vacation at his friends beach house? The other guy. She didnt admit to it being him and told me not to assume. Ha. I'm not dumb.
> 
> I called her later that Sunday night once it sunk in that she had spent the day with him yet was absolutely distraught and having a panic attack when I cut contact. I told her I was so angry, and I was done, but it is not my character to hold grudges. So I dont know, I was hoping that after her distraught display she would appologize perfusely and I would at least feel a little better and less hatred.
> 
> 
> * " why tell me?! " This is more often the case, almost always a cheater will only tell you enough to head off suspicions, she was perhaps afraid the you would find out about the rumor or that she would mix up her story enough under questioning that she wanted to get out in front of it.
> 
> Its is not a sudden burst of virtue, but of unremorseful guilt, selfish confusion, and manipulation. Don't spend a lot of time trying to read anything into it.*
> 
> She is 22, absolutely, absolutely gorgeous, smart, good family, extremely wealthy family, and she went for the attention of a 33 year old hotel receptionist(this is a below minimum wage job, he couldnt get anything better. she had studied hospitality in brazil and canada and was a receptionist purely for experience as she didnt need the money..) the second he affirmed to her that she was beautiful and would find someone else if me and her didnt work out.
> 
> *This is ignorance on your part (not insulting you here).
> 
> If you knew how often a betrayed spouse wonders about the loser his partner ran off with. Often women seem to "Affair down" especially those with poor self esteem. She feels like he is a prize because he picked her, remember she does not value herself properly and so has a distorted view of reality, and probably always will.
> 
> I mean out of work, chubby bald guys, sometimes ex cons and on drugs, when the husband was handsome, athletic and loved his wife.
> 
> Often the better looking the husband is the harder it is for him to understand, (because he foolishly thinks that is perhaps the biggest part of the attraction).
> 
> Your Gf received attention and was validated by it,began to crave it, fantasized about him. As he came onto her she was attracted by his experience, by the excitement, newness, danger of his alpha bad boy persona, a man who takes what he wants. She wanted to be taken to have an amazing connection and passionate lovemaking.
> 
> Back home is the nice, hansom stable guy, we see it here time and again.
> 
> Here is the bad news...Google something like the chemistry of an affair. The P.E.A. in your Gf brain has by now made her addicted to him, SHE WILL NEVER BE THE SAME, and he will always be a threat.
> 
> I have seen these guys treat these type woman like crap and they just cant get enough of them, they get locked into the drama. The guy will break up with them and see other woman, maybe demand he be allowed to see multiple woman even share her with other dudes and they stick with him because they are addicted to the "affair crack" in their brain.
> 
> Also you need to understand "cheater speak"
> 1. We are just friends...Its and EA
> 2. It was an EA that never went physical... its a PA
> 3. We only kissed one time...they had sex.
> 4. We only had sex once..at least 15 times.
> 5. He came onto me...she chased him.
> on and on it goes, do not doubt this I have never seen it to be wrong, not ever. *
> 
> 
> She is a woman who wants God and to have a Godly man but let's her selfish desires and desperate need for attention ruin her life.
> 
> *She has a fantasy about the life she wants and God is part of it, but so is the passion like she found with Mr. receptionist.
> 
> Its a dream, and it is unattainable, but people sacrifice every good thing in their life to try for it.*
> 
> 
> *I realize you will resist some of this and defend her, they always do, but the weight of evidence is on my side, no bump to me and little comfort to you.*
> 
> 
> 
> I appologize to all of you for not being honest at the start.. I was in denial and felt as if I could not bear the word "RUN!".
> 
> *I want to say this as kindly as I can because I am truly sorry for the pain you are in, ( BTW, I think you need to face the full force of it for your own good.)
> 
> You are somewhat altruistic, and idealistic, (i.e. a fixed and a savior, or KISA), I see this in Young Christians especially, and it is deadly, you must deal with this co-dependency.
> 
> Jesus was the ultimate realist, yet many read about Him and get all idealistic, its uncalled for and damaging. There was nothing ideal about His experience that led up to the cross.
> 
> If you want to have the same faith Jesus did then tell yourself this. As a result of someone who claims loyalty to the prince of truth (i.e. your GF) you have been betrayed in the worse possible way to you. She has willingly inflicted this suffering upon you in the pursuit of her "needs" and you will have life time scars as a result. Oh and BTW this was God's will for you to help you become perfected into the image of His son who also bears, for eternity the scars that were put there to atone for your selfishness, so rejoice!
> 
> The was the Lord Jesus's reality and the pain you feel is your reality.
> 
> Btw, Love may or may not be unconditional but relationships are not unconditional, forgiveness does not mean pretending someone is something they are not, you can forgive without getting back together.
> 
> How real is you faith in the face of this disappointment and suffering? That is the true test of the quality of your faith.
> 
> You may be surprised. IDK.
> 
> The Apostle Paul was a realist...2 Timothy 4,
> " Alexander the coppersmith (i.e. your girlfriend) did me much harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds. Be on guard against him yourself.*
> 
> 
> *My advice, (which would typically be ignored) is thank God you found out in time, learned some things, and now RUN Forest, RUN! *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Because stupid is as stupid does.
> 
> I do wish you well, take care!*


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *Originally Posted by Decorum*
> I will say this, if you have worked together on her self esteem over this 4.5 years, and made great progress and now she cheats when you are not with her, reverting back to her needs driven persona, you are seeing your future with her and its ugly (and she knows it).
> 
> 
> 
> *Originally Posted by zildjian_4*
> She is a woman who wants God and to have a Godly man but let's her selfish desires and desperate need for attention ruin her life.



You and Decorum statements above have brought the crux of your girlfriend’s persona to light!

*If she is not going to stay true to God what makes you think she is going to stay true to you?*

You can heal and this too shall pass. Millions have done it and so can you!


----------



## zildjian_4

THanks for the replies everyone.. Im doing my best to let those realities sink in.. as for now.. this is my update from the past 18 hours..

So, yesterday was supposed to be the day that I left for Brazil, the trip we were counting down the days to for almost 8 months. 

She sent me a message at 6pm yesterday saying "last day of work?" and I didnt reply. It sure made my heart beat fast though. Then when I was getting home at around 830 she sent a video diary that she made.. it was her crying saying she has never felt so lost.. "I miss you like crazy but I dont know what to do" and she held the necklace I bought her and said "I will ALWAYS keep this with me, I dont want to forget you".. She was wearing everything that I had bought her over 5 years, the watch, the earrings, the necklace, even the shirt.. "it was so hard to type your name into facebook, and not see you there.." "I'm so sorry..I wish none of this ever happened, but now it has happened and I have to face it"

Makes things so hard.. the videos were recording at 2 and 3 pm, then the text at 6, then the videos were sent at 830.. she clearly spent the whole day thinking about it.. but frig, honestly, if she really felt those things, i guess she would be here trying to make up by now.. but she isnt..


----------



## Decorum

There was a lady who posted here that deeply loved her husband, had a great marriage, and said she was a wonderful man. I forget the exact details but she started having an affair (her older boss maybe?). As it usually happens she transferred her desire from her husband to her lover, is got to the point where se could not stand to have her husband touch her... They divorced. 

Her new partner turned out to be a narcissist who did not treat her nearly as well as her husband did, I believe he even cheated on her.

She said it was the greatest mistake of her life, she regretted it every day, and mourned the loss of her marriage. She would never get over it.

The odd part is that even now her husband would take her back, but she said "I am no longer attracted to him and I still love my affair partner".

Zildjian, I am sorry to say, she did not choose you and she is now addicted to the OM. 

Cheating changes you, and she will NEVER be the same person she was.

She deeply regrets her choices, and will never get over you (see her mind is made up!!!) but she wants to be with her current lover.

Let that sink in, I am sorry. It really has nothing to do with you.


This is a time to work on yourself and move forward one little step at a time.

Please read "No More Mr Nice guy" You can get it as a free download, and there is a website.

Also "A married Mans Sex Life", there is a website as well.

(This book is a must read, it is not a sex manual, it is about a woman's cycle, her sexual attraction, what it takes to keep a 
woman interested. Men tend to get domesticated and lose the things that originally attracted their spouse, get it read it!)

We recommend these books all the time. I would love to know what you get out of them. If I can ever be of any help please feel free to PM me.

Take care!


----------



## zildjian_4

Decorum said:


> There was a lady who posted here that deeply loved her husband, had a great marriage, and said she was a wonderful man. I forget the exact details but she started having an affair (her older boss maybe?). As it usually happens she transferred her desire from her husband to her lover, is got to the point where se could not stand to have her husband touch her... They divorced.
> 
> Her new partner turned out to be a narcissist who did not treat her nearly as well as her husband did, I believe he even cheated on her.
> 
> She said it was the greatest mistake of her life, she regretted it every day, and mourned the loss of her marriage. She would never get over it.
> 
> The odd part is that even now her husband would take her back, but she said "I am no longer attracted to him and I still love my affair partner".
> 
> Zildjian, I am sorry to say, she did not choose you and she is now addicted to the OM.
> 
> Cheating changes you, and she will NEVER be the same person she was.
> 
> She deeply regrets her choices, and will never get over you (see her mind is made up!!!) but she wants to be with her current lover.
> 
> Let that sink in, I am sorry. It really has nothing to do with you.
> 
> 
> This is a time to work on yourself and move forward one little step at a time.
> 
> Please read "No More Mr Nice guy" You can get it as a free download, and there is a website.
> 
> Also "A married Mans Sex Life", there is a website as well.
> 
> (This book is a must read, it is not a sex manual, it is about a woman's cycle, her sexual attraction, what it takes to keep a
> woman interested. Men tend to get domesticated and lose the things that originally attracted their spouse, get it read it!)
> 
> We recommend these books all the time. I would love to know what you get out of them. If I can ever be of any help please feel free to PM me.
> 
> Take care!


Thats a lot of really tough advice to swallow...I do't know seriously to take that whole thing about addiction.. There are many marriages that continue on after an affair and the attraction is restored.. I thought that was the occasional result of the 180..


----------



## LostViking

Z, first of all quit lying to us. Quit lying to yourself. 

This woman lives a half a world away and she is playing you like a cheap fiddle. She was sleeping with the other guy the whole time and stringing you along. Stop being her mouse and move on and find a nice Canadian girl to settle down with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zildjian_4

LostViking said:


> Z, first of all quit lying to us. Quit lying to yourself.
> 
> This woman lives a half a world away and she is playing you like a cheap fiddle. She was sleeping with the other guy the whole time and stringing you along. Stop being her mouse and move on and find a nice Canadian girl to settle down with.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, I've come clean about all the details already and am doing my best to face the facts now.

As for sleeping with him, I don't know what could have happened those times she went out in the evenings/nights, but she lives with her parents who are very strict.. She definitely didnt stay out all night or spend it at his place. Obviously stuff can happen outside the house, Im just clearing up that no nights were spent at his place or vice versa.. Im no longer being her mouse as Im ignoring her calls and not giving her a response. 

The one question I had.. the 180 method doesnt mention literally ignoring them.. Should I be at least giving a response occasionally? Ive gotten a bunch of messages in the last 18 hours and have completely ignored them.


----------



## Decorum

Yeah if the addiction stuff dosnt fit or dosent make sense I'm good with that, it may not apply, thanks for considering it.



zildjian_4 said:


> ... There are many marriages that continue on after an affair and the attraction is restored.. I thought that was the occasional result of the 180..


You are right I did overstated that.

Some people do reconcile and I know that, but I was thinking more of a partner whom while regretful and perhaps upset is not truly remorseful. So good call.

Thanks for pointing that out, and I just want to make sure that it is clear in case any of the couples in reconciliation should read this.

The 180 is all about you detaching emotionally to heal and perhaps move on or reconcile, it is not about winning her back, but it often makes a WW react temporarily by chasing you, just fyi.

Of course I respect that you will use your own judgment, if I doubted it I would not post, because I do not want to take that much responsibility for you life, I think you get what I mean there.

Hey I have a post that I am going to put up, I realize that it my not click or fit, I just offer it as somthing to consider.

We post from a distance and sometimes it seems more like guessing from a distance ha ha, so take it for what it is worth.
Also posting is low band width so sometimes assumptions or exclusions cloud the channel. 

Take care!


----------



## Decorum

I appreciate your attitude.
As you let it sink in you may find some advice does not really apply but at least you have not rejected it out of hand.

Here is something to think about. We post from a distance, this may or may not apply, but I wanted to put it out there.

When I said in an earlier post that if you two could each really be yourselves you might realize that you are not as compatible as it appears this is what I had in mind. I can’t take time to finish this, so consider it a rough draft but it makes the point I have in mind.

Sorry if this seems somewhat theoretical, but I have seen it go both ways (as described below) with my own eyes.

Compatibility versus Dependency 
You want a compatible personality that will truly communicate not just placate in silence.

I think some co-dependence will develop in most long term relationships that is not what I have in view here.

Here is the scenario, suppose a woman is raised in some combination of a strict/dominant/harsh/abusive environment.
She represses (not Freudian) her self expression/ initiative and learns to acquiesces to her authority figure, she never learns to advocate for herself, affirm the importance of her own self interest, enforce her own appropriate boundaries, nor feel comfortable agreeing to disagree.

She meets a great guy, he is not so damaged, he can decide on goals, explain himself and defend his positions. He is kind and affectionate. She thinks “I never thought I would met someone like this”

They seem perfect for each other completely compatible.

Over time most things tend to go his way, not because he is strident but because he encounters little resistance.
He has a high ideal of spirituality in his life, she has some idea of spirituality but she is stretched to reach his standards.

Over time she feels pushed to keep up but she cannot let on that she is not stretching/reaching for herself but for him, she deeply admires the person her partner is.

She is conflicted between what she feels is expected of her and who she really is. She has a measure of unhappiness in the relationship and feels trapped. (I don't know if you are familiar with the idea of covert contracts in relationships)


The opportunity to take a vacation from the expectations that have built up in her life presents itself and she jumps in with both feet and enters an affair and a new life on a completely new path begin. 

People wonder how she could change so quickly and so differently, thing is, it is not that much of a change, she was stretching to maintain her life in a higher standard but her new path fits easily within her comfort range.

She can see both paths, the higher one to which she might aspire, one that would stretch her and the new one that is of a lower standard and suits her well. In reality a Christian woman can be both sexy and a saint.

She feels in herself that she is not worthy/able/adequate to walk the higher path, and feel like she is being more honest with herself by forsaking it. She also feels terrible about disappointing you.

Realize she does not want to be saved from this, she is not looking for some sort of absolution/understanding/free pass/adjustment from you that will make the relationship work.

This sometimes goes down differently.
Resentment grows over time, the relationship hits a rough patch maybe on some issue that the wife does feel strongly about, example; maybe she says she feels like the husband is to strict, etc.

When it gets to the point in the relationship where she feels like she has little to lose, she will find her voice and once you let that Genie out of the bottle it will not go back in. The result is again she will appear to have changed but really she is again just starting to be true to herself.

But it will appear that they are now less compatible and perhaps even toxic to each other.

Often the things that attract us to our spouse become the very things that drive us away later.

Btw if she is hindered in her person by some dependency, then the kind of person you want her to be or at least the potential for her being the amazing person she is capable of being, begins when she starts being true to whom she is, sans the dependency.

That becomes a better place to evaluate compatibility. Of course no one is perfect or completely compatible, and every one has rough patches.

Just a theoretical scenario for you to think about. I don't want to sheer sheep here, I am beginning to feel like I have said enough (maybe to much) again. 

I do wish you well, Take care!


----------



## LostViking

Z, you live 5,000 or more miles away from her. 

You have no idea if she is actually living with her parents or not. Everything you know of her is only what she has told you. You are basing all of your decisions on unsubstantiated information. 

Let her go. Move on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Decorum

zildjian_4 said:


> As for sleeping with him, I don't know what could have happened those times she went out in the evenings/nights, but she lives with her parents who are very strict.. She definitely didnt stay out all night or spend it at his place. Obviously stuff can happen outside the house, Im just clearing up that no nights were spent at his place or vice versa.. Im no longer being her mouse as Im ignoring her calls and not giving her a response.


zildjian_4,

Maybe I should ask because I am assuming. ZJ were the two of you having a physical relationship (i.e. sex) before she left?

To think that an older guy and her have not gotten physical would put them in a category all by themselves from what my life experience, and time on TAM tells me.

I think her shame and behavior indicates that they have consummated their relationship.


----------



## zildjian_4

Decorum said:


> I appreciate your attitude.
> As you let it sink in you may find some advice does not really apply but at least you have not rejected it out of hand.
> 
> Here is something to think about. We post from a distance, this may or may not apply, but I wanted to put it out there.
> 
> When I said in an earlier post that if you two could each really be yourselves you might realize that you are not as compatible as it appears this is what I had in mind. I can’t take time to finish this, so consider it a rough draft but it makes the point I have in mind.
> 
> Sorry if this seems somewhat theoretical, but I have seen it go both ways (as described below) with my own eyes.
> 
> Compatibility versus Dependency
> You want a compatible personality that will truly communicate not just placate in silence.
> 
> I think some co-dependence will develop in most long term relationships that is not what I have in view here.
> 
> Here is the scenario, suppose a woman is raised in some combination of a strict/dominant/harsh/abusive environment.
> She represses (not Freudian) her self expression/ initiative and learns to acquiesces to her authority figure, she never learns to advocate for herself, affirm the importance of her own self interest, enforce her own appropriate boundaries, nor feel comfortable agreeing to disagree.
> 
> She meets a great guy, he is not so damaged, he can decide on goals, explain himself and defend his positions. He is kind and affectionate. She thinks “I never thought I would met someone like this”
> 
> They seem perfect for each other completely compatible.
> 
> Over time most things tend to go his way, not because he is strident but because he encounters little resistance.
> He has a high ideal of spirituality in his life, she has some idea of spirituality but she is stretched to reach his standards.
> 
> Over time she feels pushed to keep up but she cannot let on that she is not stretching/reaching for herself but for him, she deeply admires the person her partner is.
> 
> She is conflicted between what she feels is expected of her and who she really is. She has a measure of unhappiness in the relationship and feels trapped. (I don't know if you are familiar with the idea of covert contracts in relationships)
> 
> 
> The opportunity to take a vacation from the expectations that have built up in her life presents itself and she jumps in with both feet and enters an affair and a new life on a completely new path begin.
> 
> People wonder how she could change so quickly and so differently, thing is, it is not that much of a change, she was stretching to maintain her life in a higher standard but her new path fits easily within her comfort range.
> 
> She can see both paths, the higher one to which she might aspire, one that would stretch her and the new one that is of a lower standard and suits her well. In reality a Christian woman can be both sexy and a saint.
> 
> She feels in herself that she is not worthy/able/adequate to walk the higher path, and feel like she is being more honest with herself by forsaking it. She also feels terrible about disappointing you.
> 
> Realize she does not want to be saved from this, she is not looking for some sort of absolution/understanding/free pass/adjustment from you that will make the relationship work.
> 
> This sometimes goes down differently.
> Resentment grows over time, the relationship hits a rough patch maybe on some issue that the wife does feel strongly about, example; maybe she says she feels like the husband is to strict, etc.
> 
> When it gets to the point in the relationship where she feels like she has little to lose, she will find her voice and once you let that Genie out of the bottle it will not go back in. The result is again she will appear to have changed but really she is again just starting to be true to herself.
> 
> But it will appear that they are now less compatible and perhaps even toxic to each other.
> 
> Often the things that attract us to our spouse become the very things that drive us away later.
> 
> Btw if she is hindered in her person by some dependency, then the kind of person you want her to be or at least the potential for her being the amazing person she is capable of being, begins when she starts being true to whom she is, sans the dependency.
> 
> That becomes a better place to evaluate compatibility. Of course no one is perfect or completely compatible, and every one has rough patches.
> 
> Just a theoretical scenario for you to think about. I don't want to sheer sheep here, I am beginning to feel like I have said enough (maybe to much) again.
> 
> I do wish you well, Take care!


I think you're spot on, and thanks so much for all the great info.. I'll have to reread all of that later today..


LostViking said:


> Z, you live 5,000 or more miles away from her.
> 
> You have no idea if she is actually living with her parents or not. Everything you know of her is only what she has told you. You are basing all of your decisions on unsubstantiated information.
> 
> Let her go. Move on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks viking. When I go there, I stay at her families house as that is where she still lives - with her parents. Im very close to her dad in all of this, Im positive that shes still at home, there is no way they would let her out like this..



Decorum said:


> zildjian_4,
> 
> Maybe I should ask because I am assuming. ZJ were the two of you having a physical relationship (i.e. sex) before she left?
> 
> To think that an older guy and her have not gotten physical would put them in a category all by themselves from what my life experience, and time on TAM tells me.
> 
> I think her shame and behavior indicates that they have consummated their relationship.


Yes we were intimate.. and Im basically settled on the fact that she has been with him now, before we broke up and moreso after..


She called me last night from her cousins wedding, saying how much she hates herself and blah blah and misses me and loves me etc..pretty sure she had some extra wine, but hey, I guess that makes her say it all doesnt it!?!

She got home an hour later and called me again, but I ignored 7 calls in a row and then finally picked up. She was on skype (in her bedroom at home) crying etc.. not denying or fessing up to anything.. just going quiet and saying "___ please" and I didnt show any emotion or sympathy at all. I said repeatedly "how do you think im so stupid? do you honest expect me to believe that youre suffering there and taking yourself seriously to think while youre face down on another guys pillow?!".. She sent him a text message say it was over and not to contact her anymore and everything and showed me as she sent it. I was making no assumptions last night. I told her, "every word you say during this conversation is absolutely nothing to me unless you back it up with words.".. I wished her the best at the end of the call and ended it. I feel sick now, having confirmed what shes been up to for the past month... its disgusting...so gross.. her self esteem issues really came out as she whined about not wanting to be alone and doesnt like letting people down etc.. I told her to take care of herself, gave her a bit of objective coaching and moved on my way. Unbelievable. I guess she made walking away easy.. She insisted that she will be here soon but I said dont bother.


----------



## Decorum

I'm so sorry. That is gut wrenching.

What generally happens is that your respect for her will slip away a little each day as you replay and process this and with that respect will go your love.

When we lose respect for a partner our love tends to slip away as well, we become somewhat indifferent to them personally.

That takes some time but to move on the goal is indifference not anger or hate. I'm sure you cannot even think about it now but until there is some level of indifference starting another relationship may not be the best idea, as it may end up being a rebound.

Some guys think the best way to get over one woman is to get on top of another. I would not judge someone for that personally as long as they are honest with themselves and the other person about the situation.

You actually may go through the 5 stages of grief, it is very common in infidelity, (i.e.Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance)

These are not necessarily both linear and universal, they are meant to validate your experience not dictate it, so they will generally come and go in and out of order, so maybe it will be a help to realize it.

I have seen many betrayed partners hit the anger stage, - for a while they do not even recognize themselves, so don't be to hard on yourself if that happens.

I know I am getting ahead of the situation but I expect to be off TAM for a bit and if we lose contact I just want to plant the seed.

Most men cave and take the partner back, its your life.
Some reconcile, some rug sweep, some split up again for various reasons.

Usually the relationship is changed forever, but if both people truly own their part and the wayward partner (WP) is truly remorseful and deals with her issues it can still be good.

Honestly it is much more painful on the betrayed partner to reconcile, the mind movies, lack of trust, every text or unexplained lateness or delay triggers the memories and the concern that it is happening again, it makes it long term hard.

If you ever should reconcile there is a "list" of things you should think about implementing in the relationship, like types of transparency, how to handle a contact from Om etc, just ask at some point if it comes to that.

BTW she text him right in front of you and broke it off, that is so typical, I think you are going to see what I mean by addiction.
Not trying to be argumentative, it would be nice for everyone if I were wrong.

You seem like a really decent man I think you deserved better, but in addition to decent you are also now more experienced, little consolation I'm sure but I think you will have an awesome future, will be a great partner and father should you ever be blessed with children.

I do wish you well, Take care!


----------



## Decorum

Btw the anger stage in a couple that is reconciling often hits in the 6 month to two year mark.

The onset usually begins with the husband feeling that his wife got away with it and he is carrying all the pain.

Some guys feel like they are losing it, but this too shall pass, mostly.

I am not that familiar with the timing, intensity or duration for a man who is not reconciling, but I don't think it is as severe.

They usually have started another relationship and we get less reports from them. At least from what I have seen.


----------



## zildjian_4

Thanks again for all of the advice Decorum, it makes me realise how much of an amateur I am when it comes to all things relationship related!

She called again this morning, over and over and over until finally I picked up. She said she felt so relieved this morning when she woke up because there were no longer 2 guys on her mind. She wanted to talk about she wants to be a better person.. or.. me.. She wants to be strong, live life in a good way while still having fun. She wants confidence but doesnt know where to find it, she feels like crap etc.. She kept saying that she will be back again soon, she will figure herself and one day there will be a strong secure woman standing on my doorstep. Im just saying what she said, not what I actually believe. After all shes done, its impossible to trust anything. Now, I hope that she DOES aim to be a better person and get comfortable in her own skin, but I stressed that Im not going to be there waiting for her.. this was her mistake, and I'm pretty well on my way out from her. She says she wants to be better before she comes back because she couldnt bear hurting me like this again. 

We ended the call with me reminding her that the argument I put up last night is still strong in my mind. She did disgusting things, wrong wrong wrong, and seriously needs to screw her head on straight. I hope that she does figure life out and get better - for her. As for me, I will continue trying to move on and not look back. It was a decent talk at some points today, andI supppose it made me miss the 'old' girl I once had..


----------



## Decorum

zildjian_4 said:


> Thanks again for all of the advice Decorum


Galatians 6:10 "So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith".

This kind of betrayal brings the strongest of men to their knees.
Its always a special feeling to give a brother a hand. [i.e. your welcome  ]

My one hope was to help you get past the "I'll do anything to get her back" stage of denial.

Because..
If you know that there is life after her and that you will be better than good if you decide to move on, then you can make good decisions from a position of strength.

You will be able to see through manipulation and distinguish between true and false remorse, and discern true compatibility.

And, If you decide to reconcile it will be because you truly believe that it will be a healthy relationship and one that serves both of your best interests.

Objectivity is so important and so easily misplaced, without it we are not empowered to make good choices.
(Being idealistic is the enemy of objectivity.)

IDK if you have had a chance to see (on TAM) what some wayward wives are willing to do to demonstrate true remorse, help their partner heal and reconcile their marriage.

There is some heavy lifting to be done, beginning with genuinely addressing their cheating in an individual counseling situation, personal growth, transparency and accountability, it is really not a small or short term task.

But again I am getting ahead of the situation. Its your choice and many here would be glad to lend a hand either way, myself included.

Take care!


----------



## zildjian_4

Thanks a lot again Decorum!

I do feel like I am improving as times goes by. Im much more level headed and less desperate than I was last week, even knowing what I know now. 

She has been showing true remorse and transparency(sure some can say "how do you know?" but, that can be applied to every single situation in life and Im not willing to live like that). 

I have new things to consider, serious things..I look forward to the day that I know my head is on 100% straight and when I know Im safe to make a solid decision. She has been asking "are we done forever?" etc a lot, and I just tell her, "after what youve done, its a possibility, I need time away from you to make that decision. I don't need you like I thought i did, and currently am not sure if I could live with the thoughts of what you did".. Shes been saying Im the one etc etc and wants to come back, so, I suppose in a small way the tables have turned. Either waay, we both have things to work on - I need to be more independent and build up my own identity again(buying a motorcycle this spring!!) and she needs to fix her selfesteem...


----------



## bandit.45

Zildgian, were the things she did with the other guy sexually far and above her experiences with you? 



> I feel sick now, having confirmed what shes been up to for the past month... its disgusting...so gross..


What does this mean? Was she doing some pretty wild stuff with him? 

Because most sweet Christian girls don't just go from having vanilla sex with their boyfriends to having porn start sex with their OMs overnight. It sounds like this has not been her first walk down bimbo lane.


----------



## zildjian_4

bandit.45 said:


> Zildgian, were the things she did with the other guy sexually far and above her experiences with you?
> 
> 
> 
> What does this mean? Was she doing some pretty wild stuff with him?
> 
> Because most sweet Christian girls don't just go from having vanilla sex with their boyfriends to having porn start sex with their OMs overnight. It sounds like this has not been her first walk down bimbo lane.


All I know is that they slept together (she has not said the words, but IMO, that says everything).. I don't know what they did, and truthfully, at this point, there is no point in me finding out. It doesnt make it any better or worse. As far as me and her, we did some wild things, not sure she could go much further with anyone else..

That's something that Ill definitely straighten out for the future.. I wont be sleeping with anyone else until Im married.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Quote of Zildjain
> I look forward to the day that I know my head is on 100% straight and when I know Im safe to make a solid decision.


You are very wise Zildjain, very wise indeed!




> Quote of Zildjain
> I need to be more independent and build up my own identity again(buying a motorcycle this spring!!) and she needs to fix her self esteem...


Do not be taken off your goal of building yourself up. *You have been hurt and anyone that wants what is best for you will not try to divert you from building yourself up.* That should be your absolute top priority.


I have no doubt that your girlfriend’s feelings are desperate to get you back. Her emotions will convince you of that in a very dramatic way. If she needed to build up her self esteem before her betrayal then now her self esteem has been seriously damaged more. From what I have seen self esteem is not built up in a year or two. In fact it can take decades and some never do get it back. I am not saying this to put your girlfriend down, she is a woman that wants to please God but her persona is really a strong detriment. I really hope that she starts putting her spiritual desires ahead of her fleshly desires soon. *A Christian marriage is safest when fleshly desires are not dominate. When fleshly desires are dominate then you have a time bomb waiting to go off!*

You seem to have a good understanding of the situation. I would only suggest that you not jump into marriage for at least a few years.


----------



## bandit.45

zildjian_4 said:


> All I know is that they slept together (she has not said the words, but IMO, that says everything).. I don't know what they did, and truthfully, at this point, there is no point in me finding out. It doesnt make it any better or worse. As far as me and her, we did some wild things, not sure she could go much further with anyone else..
> 
> That's something that Ill definitely straighten out for the future.. I wont be sleeping with anyone else until Im married.


You need to spend time in the word and spend time praying for God's guidance in choosing a woman with integrity. This girl you are in love with may mean well, but she is a blind person wandering in the woods. 

First of all, a Christian woman with strong values would most likely not have ever had sex with you before marriage, or at the very least would not until you had that ring on her finger and a wedding date set. 

This woman seems to have a serious problem with promiscuity. She is not a good candidate for the kind of Christian marriage you are seeking. In fact she sounds quite the opposite: extremely weak and reliant on other people, namely men, to provide her with a feeling of security and comfort. 

You do not want such a weak, dependent person as a life partner.


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## zildjian_4

Thanks Mr Blunt and Bandit, all excellent advice.

She has been attempting to contact me more often, most of the time I shrug it off and don't bother answering, but sometimes i do. I figure the 180 isnt about shutting someone out, but moreso improving yourself and becoming an individual again. She has said that in her heart she is so certain that she wants to get back together with me, but in her head (and mine too) knows that we cant right now that she has these deeper issues to take care of. I have no intention of waiting, as it is not really my problem, but if i can help, then I think I should occasionally(objectively, without flirting, compliments, providing the comfort that a bf would). 

Shes been so transparent that it's almost too much, telling me everything that shes doing, who shes with, sending pics of random things (not her or other people, just stuff). I appreciate her honesty right now, and can see someone truly struggling. I have never had low self esteem myself, and do feel bad for her.. It's tough to see a person(especially one that you have such a history with) struggling trying to keep her head above water. If she had low self esteem 2 months ago, it must be through the floor now, and I can;t imagine that.

Anyways, just giving an update on my thoughts. Doing my best to stay the course of the 180 but also help someone in need. I have to be honest though, it is tough to not be a little more happy knowing that she is done with this other guy and that she is trying so hard to prove herself to me. It actually kind of makes my job tougher to move on.. This is something I have to figure out and balance..


----------



## Decorum

zildjian_4 said:


> Anyways, just giving an update on my thoughts. Doing my best to stay the course of the 180 but also help someone in need. I have to be honest though, it is tough to not be a little more happy knowing that she is done with this other guy and that she is trying so hard to prove herself to me. It actually kind of makes my job tougher to move on.. This is something I have to figure out and balance..


Hey good update. I've been gone for a few, I had a medical procedure that really wiped me out, starting to feel like myself again.

Yeah it is validating to see her work for you, that's because you are an awesome catch and she knows it. You can see it for what it is so keep it in perspective.




zildjian_4 said:


> Either waay, we both have things to work on - I need to be more independent and build up my own identity again(buying a motorcycle this spring!!) and she needs to fix her selfesteem...


Do this!! Do this!! Live an awesome life and find a woman who is up to it. (maybe her maybe not).

Hey post a pic of your bike if you get one. :smthumbup:

I have worked hard to have some interests and still have lots of time with my wife and children.

But remember its your interests that make you interesting. (The book MMSL helps here).

Its time together that keeps the connection.


----------



## Decorum

Hey zildjian_4,
I knew there was something else I wanted to post.

Some of GF's statements show a lack of self awareness and introspection, to say the least.

Like " it was a relief not to wake up with two men on my mind"

I know you had to love hearing that.

Well here is something that Chaparral posts from time to time ( I totally plagiarized it from the last spot he did ...Sorry, or Thanks Chap, ha ha which ever one you need.)

My suggestion would be to paste and email this to her and tell her that you can tell she cannot really imagine how what she has done would put a partner through. Tell her that you have found much of this to be true in your experience (if true of course).

Be honest and tell her that you were heading down this path but you were able to disconnect enough to catch yourself, the fact that the two of you do not live together or have children together has made it easier, but it still has been accurate.

Tell her you are not sending this to her to make her feel bad but so she can reflect upon it better and understand how the actions of someone who cheated damages and hurts the ones they have betrayed. You think she will be a better person and partner if she takes some time with this. Just some suggestions.

It may not fit so of course don't use it then, but I wanted to put it out there. I would not read it together as it suggests, because of your situation, but let her read and ponder it.



(Chaps words...)
Waywards, I am convinced, never realize and don't intend the pain they dish out unless the exact same thing happens to them. Hopefully, that doesn't even happen to them. Here is the post our friend Decorum was referring to I think. Read it together and see if there is some help from it to be had.

Wayward Spouse Instructions;

Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”


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