# Big Time Backfire



## I Don't Know

Incase you cant tell, this is I Don't Know. 

Anyway, Saturday night my wife and I had sex. Sunday morning I start feeling the mood again, but she rejects. Maybe it was because I feel like the rejections are coming more often now and in the form of ignoring me and a subject change, but I took it way harder than I should have. I did pout, not proud but I did. 

I left the house. She texted asking were I went. I told her and she says thanks for asking me. I replied No problem, thanks for rejecting me. After her acting like she had no idea what I was talking about we eventually get to a place where I tell her, sex and being wanted by you is how I feel loved. Oh hell, wrong thing to say. Spent the rest of the night defending myself for saying I don't love her if she won't have sex and that sex is all that matters to me and she should just lay there and take it. I never said any of that. I love her so damn much, but I feel like she fights dirty. She will take my words to the worst possible extreme and that's that. I'm a liar and sex isn't how I feel loved. So I send her 2 articles saying the same thing. One from forgiven wife. So now maybe it's true but men are ridiculous to feel that way.

Progress the fight forward and she's saying that nothing I do makes her feel loved. I could stop doing anything and it wouldn't affect how she feels loved by me. And how I treat her makes no difference in her sex drive. Here's the kick in the nuts. She says she wanted sex just as often with her cheating ex, or any of the guys she was with between him and me, as she does with me. It's just her drive and her feelings for me or them didn't effect it in any way.

IDK, guess I just needed to talk it out.


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## Emerging Buddhist

Listening skills first are so important my friend, especially when discussions like this come...

"When you... I feel..."

Listen and repeat back your understanding "what I heard you say was..."

When the frustration becomes too high and to continue is detrimental... "my cup is full", and respect that with a break.

I believe that sex without intimacy is one of your messages here... it's not the frequency, she is sharing with you that what broke for her in earlier relationships is threatening yours.

Listen well... put aside pride and review the emotional response you gave (it did not sound very emotionally mature), those will be in the way until you resolve them first.

It would also be wise to not let that get in the way of proper respect in your communications, if she feels all her love to you is this (sex), you will fail.


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## norajane

> Anyway, Saturday night my wife and I had sex. Sunday morning I start feeling the mood again, but she rejects. Maybe it was because I feel like the rejections are coming more often now and in the form of ignoring me and a subject change, but I took it way harder than I should have. I did pout, not proud but I did.
> 
> I left the house. She texted asking were I went. I told her and she says thanks for asking me. I replied No problem, thanks for rejecting me. After her acting like she had no idea what I was talking about we eventually get to a place where I tell her, sex and being wanted by you is how I feel loved. Oh hell, wrong thing to say.


She's "ignoring you and changing the subject" in order to NOT hurt your feelings with a direct rejection. She is trying to reject sex but not reject you.

She probably felt you'd just had sex the night before, so for a LD, having sex again less than 12 hours later is too much for her, and you getting snippy about it made her feel like "yes, it is just sex he wants, because we just had sex and yet he still doesn't feel "loved"? No, he just wants sex." Timing does matter.


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## SunCMars

Sorry.

It will never change.....humans cannot "really" change. We adapt, but we do not reinvent ourselves. We cannot! 

Your wife cannot change. She can adapt....a bit. 

You too can adapt..... a bit...a bloody nervous lip that you bit. 

She is being very honest. Respect that.

Maturity does moderate some idiosyncrasies that others find, What? Un-pleasant. 

Any change that one [may do] is a minor adaptation of one's 'purported faults" never our "gravest" errors. 

On the bad [behavioral] errors, as seen by others: they are not really errors...just programming out of the mainstream. 

People are different. Some are really GD nasty. IMO, your wife does not rise to that level.


Recap:

In response to your pushback.....her larger finished por-trait(s) will remain to the grave.

I recommend this: "Live with her as she is". 

..................Unless you can do better by turning over the soil with a hard spade....planting a new flower? Risky business, this..............................


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## EleGirl

How many hours a week do you and your wife spend together doing things that you both enjoy, just the two of you?

When and if you do this, what types of things do you do together?


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## I Don't Know

Ele, we spend every non working hour together. Now doing things we enjoy, not much lately. Our kids other parents have been bad about getting them for their visitation. I thought we enjoyed going to the gym together so that's 3-5 hours a week. apparently she doesn't like this or consider it time together though. When we can we go play Bingo (don't laugh she likes it) so that's 3 hours or so. Dinner out on bingo nights as well. We don't get a lot of alone time. 5 kids at home. We try to make our weekly grocery trips quality time.


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## MrsAldi

Is she starting to reject you sexually more often now? 
Or was this a once off? 

Often women likely reject because of their own insecurities. 
Sometimes I dislike morning sex because I haven't brushed my teeth or had a shower & various other things. 
So maybe it was something like that perhaps? 

The ignoring you & changing the subject part, what are you saying when this happens? 
Are you talking about sports? Or Cars? 

Regarding the ex bit, she was trying to explain that whatever frequency of sex you guys have is what she's used to & your obviously trying to increase it but she is pushing that aside. 

Take a breather, when things have calmed down, try to focus on having an easy going yet open & honest discussion about both of your needs. 

Try to compromise & come to an agreement of what suits both of you. 

Also please instead of feeling hurt when rejected, ask her calmly next time "Why aren't you in the mood?" And maybe you'll get a simple yet understandable answer. 

Your idea of maintaining connection is physical intimacy, but was is her idea? More than sex, probably. Ask her what she needs in order to feel loved. 




Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## BioFury

Don't fall into her trap. She may be attacking you, and making a big deal out of your choice of words, merely to change the direction of the conversation. Instead of it being about her actions, and her hurting you, she's completely turned it around, to be all about your actions, and you hurting her.

She has thus used drama and manipulation to avoid addressing her behavior. Which isn't to say that your behavior doesn't need work. You guys should read "His Needs, Her Needs", "The Five Love Languages", as well as "Love & Respect".


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## Unicus

Listen up: You had sex the night before. She sad yes then. 

That she said "No" the following morning isn't a rejection. You've decided to take this personally. Maybe it had absolutely nothing to do with your needs, but hers?

*Gasp*!

Apologize and quit pouting.


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## EleGirl

I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> Ele, we spend every non working hour together. Now doing things we enjoy, not much lately. Our kids other parents have been bad about getting them for their visitation. I thought we enjoyed going to the gym together so that's 3-5 hours a week. apparently she doesn't like this or consider it time together though. When we can we go play Bingo (don't laugh she likes it) so that's 3 hours or so. Dinner out on bingo nights as well. We don't get a lot of alone time. 5 kids at home. We try to make our weekly grocery trips quality time.


Ok, so I get why she says that she does not feel loved. Generally women need a good amout of non-sexual intimacy. It’s not happening in your marriage.

She is right that going to the gym together is not quality time. You are each working out, not being emotionally intimate. Bingo is not quality time. It’s about the same as watching TV or a movie. You might sit together, but there is not intimate emotional interaction going on.

I get that you are busy with all the kids, work, etc. But if you want to stay married and have a good marriage you need to make changes. Your relationship with your wife has to be the most important relationship in your life. You two need to restructure your life.

Keep in mind that I’m not putting any blame on you. This is on the two of you together. So you need to do the work together.

There are some books that I think would really help you figure out how to fix this. Read them in this order.
“Love Busters” and “His Needs, Her Need” … read these two first yourself and do the work from your perspective. Then ask your wife to read them with you and to do the work with you.

After that read “Mating in Captivity” by Esther Perel.

How many times a week do you two normally have sex?


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## Livvie

I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> Incase you cant tell, this is I Don't Know.
> 
> Anyway, Saturday night my wife and I had sex. Sunday morning I start feeling the mood again, but she rejects. Maybe it was because I feel like the rejections are coming more often now and in the form of ignoring me and a subject change, but I took it way harder than I should have. I did pout, not proud but I did.
> 
> I left the house. She texted asking were I went. I told her and she says thanks for asking me. I replied No problem, thanks for rejecting me. After her acting like she had no idea what I was talking about we eventually get to a place where I tell her, sex and being wanted by you is how I feel loved. Oh hell, wrong thing to say. Spent the rest of the night defending myself for saying I don't love her if she won't have sex and that sex is all that matters to me and she should just lay there and take it. I never said any of that. I love her so damn much, but I feel like she fights dirty. She will take my words to the worst possible extreme and that's that. I'm a liar and sex isn't how I feel loved. So I send her 2 articles saying the same thing. One from forgiven wife. So now maybe it's true but men are ridiculous to feel that way.
> 
> Progress the fight forward and she's saying that nothing I do makes her feel loved. I could stop doing anything and it wouldn't affect how she feels loved by me. And how I treat her makes no difference in her sex drive. Here's the kick in the nuts. She says she wanted sex just as often with her cheating ex, or any of the guys she was with between him and me, as she does with me. It's just her drive and her feelings for me or them didn't effect it in any way.
> 
> IDK, guess I just needed to talk it out.


I think this is pretty out of the ordinary. She is saying her desire to have sex with a man isn't related at all to how he treats her or how she feels about him...

If this is the truth, then sex for her is completely unrelated to the relationship she has with a man!

She is making a point with it to let you know there is NOTHING you can do to make her desire you more. Whether you are a cheating a$$, or provide her with a wonderful relationship, she would want sex with you the same amount. 

I'd have a very hard time wrapping my head around this if my partner said this to me.


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## Buddy400

I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> Incase you cant tell, this is I Don't Know.
> 
> Anyway, Saturday night my wife and I had sex. Sunday morning I start feeling the mood again, but she rejects. Maybe it was because I feel like the rejections are coming more often now and in the form of ignoring me and a subject change, but I took it way harder than I should have. I did pout, not proud but I did.
> 
> I left the house. She texted asking were I went. I told her and she says thanks for asking me. I replied No problem, thanks for rejecting me. After her acting like she had no idea what I was talking about we eventually get to a place where I tell her, sex and being wanted by you is how I feel loved. Oh hell, wrong thing to say. Spent the rest of the night defending myself for saying I don't love her if she won't have sex and that sex is all that matters to me and she should just lay there and take it. I never said any of that. I love her so damn much, but I feel like she fights dirty. She will take my words to the worst possible extreme and that's that. I'm a liar and sex isn't how I feel loved. So I send her 2 articles saying the same thing. One from forgiven wife. So now maybe it's true but men are ridiculous to feel that way.
> 
> Progress the fight forward and she's saying that nothing I do makes her feel loved. I could stop doing anything and it wouldn't affect how she feels loved by me. And how I treat her makes no difference in her sex drive. *Here's the kick in the nuts. She says she wanted sex just as often with her cheating ex, or any of the guys she was with between him and me, as she does with me. It's just her drive and her feelings for me or them didn't effect it in any way.
> *
> IDK, guess I just needed to talk it out.


Curious that no one has commented on what seems to be the biggest problem for you.

So, if the guy cheats, ignores her, is an a$$hole, (worst case scenario) beats them or is the best husband in the world, she'll have sex with him at the same rate. 

Guys would prefer to think that a woman has sex because there's something special about the guy.

For women who feel this way, I wouldn't recommend sharing this with your guy.


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## I Don't Know

MrsAldi said:


> Is she starting to reject you sexually more often now?
> Or was this a once off?


It feels like it's more often but I haven't really tracked it.



> Often women likely reject because of their own insecurities.
> Sometimes I dislike morning sex because I haven't brushed my teeth or had a shower & various other things.
> So maybe it was something like that perhaps?
> 
> The ignoring you & changing the subject part, what are you saying when this happens?
> Are you talking about sports? Or Cars?


No, I'm flirting. I might walk up behind her and kiss her neck or growl in her ear and she'll start talking about taking the dog to the groomers. I'm apparently doing this too much.



> Regarding the ex bit, she was trying to explain that whatever frequency of sex you guys have is what she's used to & your obviously trying to increase it but she is pushing that aside.
> 
> Take a breather, when things have calmed down, try to focus on having an easy going yet open & honest discussion about both of your needs.


I just always thought a woman's desire was tied to her feelings. It blew me away that he could treat her badly and she'd still want him as much as she does "the love of her life"



> Try to compromise & come to an agreement of what suits both of you.
> 
> Also please instead of feeling hurt when rejected, ask her calmly next time "Why aren't you in the mood?" And maybe you'll get a simple yet understandable answer.


Yes I would have, but rather than tell me she just ignored me.



> Your idea of maintaining connection is physical intimacy, but was is her idea? More than sex, probably. Ask her what she needs in order to feel loved.


I have asked her what she needs. She doesn't need anything. I send her flowers at work but she would feel loved if I didn't. I remember anniversaries and birthdays but it doesn't make her feel loved. She feels loved by our bond. So I ask what makes our bond. She says our love makes the bond and I must not have this bond since I had to ask.


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## MrsAldi

@I STILL DON'T KNOW have you always behaved that way, buying flowers, flirting etc & now things have changed? 
Like she's gotten tired of it? 





Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## I Don't Know

EleGirl said:


> Ok, so I get why she says that she does not feel loved. Generally women need a good amout of non-sexual intimacy. It’s not happening in your marriage.
> 
> She is right that going to the gym together is not quality time. You are each working out, not being emotionally intimate. Bingo is not quality time. It’s about the same as watching TV or a movie. You might sit together, but there is not intimate emotional interaction going on.
> 
> I get that you are busy with all the kids, work, etc. But if you want to stay married and have a good marriage you need to make changes. Your relationship with your wife has to be the most important relationship in your life. You two need to restructure your life.
> 
> Keep in mind that I’m not putting any blame on you. This is on the two of you together. So you need to do the work together.
> 
> There are some books that I think would really help you figure out how to fix this. Read them in this order.
> “Love Busters” and “His Needs, Her Need” … read these two first yourself and do the work from your perspective. Then ask your wife to read them with you and to do the work with you.
> 
> After that read “Mating in Captivity” by Esther Perel.
> 
> How many times a week do you two normally have sex?


You're right it is kinda like watching tv, except we can get excited for each other when we win or even get close. I give her lots of non sexual touch as well. Always kissing her head or cheek or hugging her. I'm not saying these things are what she wants but just saying I'm not always pushing sex. 

We have sex 2-3 times per week. I know that's quite a bit. I'm not saying I'm sexually deprived. But it can never happen twice in a day or within a short period. Ok that's not fair. It has happened twice in a short period. But it's very rare. Last time it happened we were talking about playing out a rape fantasy and other people watching us have sex. Just fantasy stuff. She need 2-3 days to build up again and I usually give that to her while still being present for her and flirting. Maybe I need to stop the flirting?


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## norajane

> No, I'm flirting. I might walk up behind her and kiss her neck or growl in her ear and she'll start talking about taking the dog to the groomers. I'm apparently doing this too much.


I suspect she does not see this as flirting, but as hounding her for sex. 



> We have sex 2-3 times per week. I know that's quite a bit. I'm not saying I'm sexually deprived. But it can never happen twice in a day or within a short period. Ok that's not fair. It has happened twice in a short period. But it's very rare.


You're having sex 2-3 times a week, and sometimes it even is within short periods, and you've turned sex into a battlefield in your mind. Keep it up, and the sex WILL dwindle. 

Is it possible for you to enjoy the sexual relationship you already HAVE with your wife rather than wishing for some kind of sexual relationship she is not capable of?


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## I Don't Know

MrsAldi said:


> @I STILL DON'T KNOW have you always behaved that way, buying flowers, flirting etc & now things have changed?
> Like she's gotten tired of it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


With her yes. I've sent her flowers on every birthday, valentines day, and anniversary since we've been together. Sent her flowers after our first weekend together. Sometimes just run to the grocery store before she wakes up and pick some up. Flirting was the same. I've always done it with her.

That's why I don't understand the sex frequency thing. I want to do things for her that I never did for another woman, like flowers. My love for her makes me want her so much more than I wanted other women, but her feeling for me make no difference.


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## norajane

I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> With her yes. I've sent her flowers on every birthday, valentines day, and anniversary since we've been together. Sent her flowers after our first weekend together. Sometimes just run to the grocery store before she wakes up and pick some up. Flirting was the same. I've always done it with her.
> 
> That's why I don't understand the sex frequency thing. I want to do things for her that I never did for another woman, like flowers. My love for her makes me want her so much more than I wanted other women, but her feeling for me make no difference.


Have you considered the Five Love Languages? Maybe gifts and acts of service do nothing for her. 

Or maybe she's returning the love in her way - sex 2-3 times a week.


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## I Don't Know

norajane said:


> I suspect she does not see this as flirting, but as hounding her for sex.
> 
> I suspect you're correct.
> 
> You're having sex 2-3 times a week, and sometimes it even is within short periods, and you've turned sex into a battlefield in your mind. Keep it up, and the sex WILL dwindle.
> 
> Is it possible for you to enjoy the sexual relationship you already HAVE with your wife rather than wishing for some kind of sexual relationship she is not capable of?


I guess it will have to be.


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## I Don't Know

norajane said:


> Have you considered the Five Love Languages? Maybe gifts and acts of service do nothing for her.
> 
> Or maybe she's returning the love in her way - sex 2-3 times a week.


Yes it would be quality time. Acts of service did come in second when she took it. We spend every minute of the day when not working together. I built her raised garden beds so she could plant a garden. I cook her and the kids breakfast on the weekends and let her sleep in.

She does a lot of things for me too. Not saying she doesn't. I just wish she would understand it's not I don't love her without sex. It's not I don't feel loved without sex. It was your rejection hurt me today and because sex and your desire validate me and make me feel loved. And she called me a liar.


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## MrsAldi

I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> You're right it is kinda like watching tv, except we can get excited for each other when we win or even get close. I give her lots of non sexual touch as well. Always kissing her head or cheek or hugging her. I'm not saying these things are what she wants but just saying I'm not always pushing sex.
> 
> We have sex 2-3 times per week. I know that's quite a bit. I'm not saying I'm sexually deprived. But it can never happen twice in a day or within a short period. Ok that's not fair. It has happened twice in a short period. But it's very rare. Last time it happened we were talking about playing out a rape fantasy and other people watching us have sex. Just fantasy stuff. She need 2-3 days to build up again and I usually give that to her while still being present for her and flirting. Maybe I need to stop the flirting?


It's funny when my husband started ignoring me about sex & became distant, I completely changed my attitude towards everything. 

Maybe you're too nice to her? And perhaps she's taking things for granted? You love her so much & she knows that and thinks you'll never leave her. And that notion alone can be detrimental in itself. 

What do you think? 




Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Evinrude58

I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> Ele, we spend every non working hour together. Now doing things we enjoy, not much lately. Our kids other parents have been bad about getting them for their visitation. I thought we enjoyed going to the gym together so that's 3-5 hours a week. apparently she doesn't like this or consider it time together though. When we can we go play Bingo (don't laugh she likes it) so that's 3 hours or so. Dinner out on bingo nights as well. We don't get a lot of alone time. 5 kids at home. We try to make our weekly grocery trips quality time.


I'm a guy that once pouted when he was rejected just like you were. All I can say is DON'T.
It is very destructive. 

And she didn't mean what you thought she meant about sex with past guys. She just means she doesn't want it that much. Respect that. Make sex enjoyable for her and keep it a super great experience. If you're getting sex at least 3 times a week, masturbate a little or whatever it takes so she doesn't feel like she is pressured or you are really messing up and killing her drive or lowering it.

My gf doesn't understand that I just don't want sex as much as her. I am deeply in love with her, live sex with her, and find her very attractive. But I can't do sex at night and sex the next morning very often. She feels rejected and says so.

THAT HURTS ME!!!!! Because I feel like a failure and feel she is upset and it just ruins my day. I'm likely a lot older than you. So now I can see the woman's side of things.
I hope you listen. 

So how often ARE you getting sex?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> You're right it is kinda like watching tv, except we can get excited for each other when we win or even get close. I give her lots of non sexual touch as well. Always kissing her head or cheek or hugging her. I'm not saying these things are what she wants but just saying I'm not always pushing sex.
> 
> We have sex 2-3 times per week. I know that's quite a bit. I'm not saying I'm sexually deprived. But it can never happen twice in a day or within a short period. Ok that's not fair. It has happened twice in a short period. But it's very rare. Last time it happened we were talking about playing out a rape fantasy and other people watching us have sex. Just fantasy stuff. She need 2-3 days to build up again and I usually give that to her while still being present for her and flirting. Maybe I need to stop the flirting?


No you don't stop flirting. But keep in mine that flirting is not expecting sex. 

When she rejected you, you were not flirting, you where trying to get her to agree to sex.

If your wife needs 2-3 days to build up again to have sex, then you need to respect that.

I can understand her comment about here just lying there. If she is not ready for sex, then she's not ready. And if you expect sex when she's not ready, you are asking her to just let you use her body.


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## Evinrude58

So you're getting it 2-3 times a week? Yeah, you need to chill.

Make it the best 2-3 times in her life for the next 3 weeks, then play the foreplay cards right and you may get a 4th time a week. But don't push her. It will go the other direction.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> I just always thought a woman's desire was tied to her feelings. It blew me away that he could treat her badly and she'd still want him as much as she does "the love of her life"


I think that you don’t have a good understanding of the dynamics of an abusive relationship like she had with her ex. She was clearly very emotionally bounded to the ex who abused her. That is what keeps a person in an abusive relationship… the depth of their bonding.

The ‘in-love” or bonding feeling that exists between a couple is caused by brain chemistry. The brain produces and uptakes large amounts of feel-good and bonding hormones like dopamine, oxytocin and many others. This makes a person feel good and feel bonded to their SO/spouse. It also produced an amnesia affect that makes a person minimize the abuse. They really do not remember the intensity of the abuse, especially when they are in the middle of the relationship.

There have been scientific studies done that have shown that people who are abused develop a distorted brain chemistry response. They produce more dopamine, oxytocin, etc. Why? Most likely because it’s the body’s way of protecting them emotionally.

An example of another time when this happens is child birth. Were it not for dopamine and oxytocin there would never be a second child. Leading up to and during child birth a woman’s body pours out, and uptakes, these feel good chemicals is large amounts. The bi-product is that the woman bonds quickly and very strongly to her child. And it produces a level of amnesia so that the woman does not really remember the full depth of the pain of child birth.

Abuse does the same thing… to include bond a person more strongly to their abuser… for a while anyway. Note that she is no longer with her abuser. Why? Because at some point her brain chemistry stopped responding in the wrong way to the guy and she was able to break the strong emotional bond.

To be honest, it’s not much help for you to measure her relationship with you against a relationship she had with some guy who abused her. With him she was caught up in a very bad bonding cycle. Thank goodness she got away from him.

You want a healthy relationship with her. It's a completely different dynamic.


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## EleGirl

I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> With her yes. I've sent her flowers on every birthday, valentines day, and anniversary since we've been together. Sent her flowers after our first weekend together. Sometimes just run to the grocery store before she wakes up and pick some up. Flirting was the same. I've always done it with her.
> 
> That's why I don't understand the sex frequency thing. I want to do things for her that I never did for another woman, like flowers. My love for her makes me want her so much more than I wanted other women, but her feeling for me make no difference.


You are talking like you have a covert contract. 

You get her flowers on special days, go to the grocery store, etc and thing that should lead to sex. It does not. Not directly for sure. If she's picking up that this is your attitude, it will help to kill her sexual desire.

And things like going to the grocery store while she sleeps... is that really doing her a favor? Isn't it your family and your food too? Isn't it also your responsibility to go to the store sometimes? As for you cooking breakfast... the same thing, it's not responsibility to cook some meals. What would you do if you were not married? Do you own shopping and cooking... for you and your kids.

You sound like a really good guy. I'm not dissing you at all. I just think that a tweak of your expectations and basis for things that you do might go a long way to clear this all up.

And as others have said, if you are getting sex 2-3 times a week, that's normal.

Is getting sex more than 2-3 times a week something that you are willing to divorce her for? Do you feel that you two are so sexually incompatible that this marriage is not going to work? I get the impression that this is not the issue. But I'm asking just incase I'm wrong.


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## jerry123

I have to ask, how long have you two been married and do you have kids?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## norajane

Evinrude58 said:


> I'm a guy that once pouted when he was rejected just like you were. All I can say is DON'T.
> It is very destructive.
> 
> And she didn't mean what you thought she meant about sex with past guys. She just means she doesn't want it that much. Respect that. Make sex enjoyable for her and keep it a super great experience. If you're getting sex at least 3 times a week, masturbate a little or whatever it takes so she doesn't feel like she is pressured or you are really messing up and killing her drive or lowering it.
> 
> *My gf doesn't understand that I just don't want sex as much as her. I am deeply in love with her, live sex with her, and find her very attractive. But I can't do sex at night and sex the next morning very often. She feels rejected and says so.*
> 
> *THAT HURTS ME!!!!! Because I feel like a failure and feel she is upset and it just ruins my day.* I'm likely a lot older than you. So now I can see the woman's side of things.
> I hope you listen.
> 
> So how often ARE you getting sex?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is really important to note. For the lower drive partner (I won't say LD, because your wife has sex 2-3 times a week and I don't consider that Low Drive at all), it's very easy for them to start feeling like a failure or like they aren't enough for you because you discount the sex you do have in favor of being upset at the sex you don't have. They start to feel like no amount of sex would be enough, so they become depressed about having sex and about the relationship. This is a downward spiral you don't want to get into!


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## SunCMars

@Livvie wrote:

I think this is pretty out of the ordinary. She is saying her desire to have sex with a man isn't related at all to how he treats her or how she feels about him...

If this is the truth, then sex for her is completely unrelated to the relationship she has with a man!

She is making a point with it to let you know there is NOTHING you can do to make her desire you more. Whether you are a cheating a$$, or provide her with a wonderful relationship, she would want sex with you the same amount. 

I'd have a very hard time wrapping my head around this if my partner said this to me. 
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Livvie reads well.


Simple answer:

Find out WHAT does increase her desire. This will take quite a bit of time, acute/extreme observational skills, and the ability to discern cause-and-effect triggers. 

Is it an "outside" trigger? Something/someone in your environment? Is it TV or the Internet?



Difficult answer:

Is it hormonal, chemical, reaction to one of her meds, or lack of meds....she forgets to take one.

Is it part of the monthly cycle. Some women get horny just prior to their period or whenever she is "most apt" to get pregnant. The biological triggers. 

Keep an eye on the calendar.

She knows the answer to your question....Oh, she does. 

She does not want to share it. I too, find it strange.

I also find it deceptive. Maybe, this why she is divorced...maybe it caused her EX and Interim Boyfriends to abandon her. She is hard-headed and unable to learn from her past.

In her mind, she does not need to change. She has a right to be herself. I agree. 

But look at the results that her behavior has on the men who were/are in her life.

Hence, my former post....we can adapt... but not in a major way. And only temporary.

I see a lack of empathy driven action/reaction on her part. And you may be too thin-skinned.

She drives her train....you are a passenger. 

Or....She may be the one with a bad picker.


----------



## I Don't Know

EleGirl said:


> You are talking like you have a covert contract.
> 
> You get her flowers on special days, go to the grocery store, etc and thing that should lead to sex. It does not. Not directly for sure. If she's picking up that this is your attitude, it will help to kill her sexual desire.
> 
> And things like going to the grocery store while she sleeps... is that really doing her a favor? Isn't it your family and your food too? Isn't it also your responsibility to go to the store sometimes? As for you cooking breakfast... the same thing, it's not responsibility to cook some meals. What would you do if you were not married? Do you own shopping and cooking... for you and your kids.
> 
> You sound like a really good guy. I'm not dissing you at all. I just think that a tweak of your expectations and basis for things that you do might go a long way to clear this all up.
> 
> And as others have said, if you are getting sex 2-3 times a week, that's normal.
> 
> Is getting sex more than 2-3 times a week something that you are willing to divorce her for? Do you feel that you two are so sexually incompatible that this marriage is not going to work? I get the impression that this is not the issue. But I'm asking just incase I'm wrong.


I don't think its a covert contract. Maybe it is. I don't expect that flowers = sex. I was saying I want to do special things for her because I love her. I desire her more intensely and more often because I love her. I don't get why it's not the same for her. I understand that it's not but it doesn't make sense to me. 

The conventional wisdom is that a good attentive husband's wife wants him. An inattentive husbands wife does not. But neither way affects her desire. Be a crap bag cheater that does nothing around the house and never bought her a single birthday, christmas or valentine's gift or a decent husband that tries to show her love every day, she still wants both equally.

The cooking breakfast is every weekend... both days. And going to the grocery store is to pick up flowers for her before she wakes up. I don't expect those things to make her want sex. I think it's part of being a decent husband and being a decent husband should make her want sex. Where does it stop being a covert contract and start being just normal expectations of marriage? It's ok for people to expect sex be a part of their marriage, right? When a guy says he's not getting enough the questions are asked. Do you do your fair share? Do you still date her? If not how do you expect her to want sex with you? That's not a covert contract but if you already do those things it is? I'm seriously asking. The line is unclear to me.


----------



## Married27years

I only had to read the first paragraph to know you were in the wrong. You should have been content with having sex on Saturday night and accept that she wasn't ready to have sex again Sunday morning. When she rejected you, then you should have accepted that without pouting and leaving. All the rest of your post doesn't matter.


----------



## I Don't Know

Unicus said:


> Listen up: You had sex the night before. She sad yes then.
> 
> That she said "No" the following morning isn't a rejection. You've decided to take this personally. Maybe it had absolutely nothing to do with your needs, but hers?
> 
> *Gasp*!
> 
> Apologize and quit pouting.


When does it have to do with my needs?


----------



## Rowan

You and your wife are having sex 2-3 times per week. What frequency would be satisfactory to you? How often is your wife rejecting you? 

I think you and your wife are dangerously close to having a toxic case of the mutual "shoulds". You think she "should" want sex more with you because you're a good guy and her ex was an asshat. She thinks you "should" be happy with the amount of sex she's comfortable having. Both of you think the other "should" feel the same way about sex that you, yourself, do. That's not going to do anything good for your relationship. A therapist might be able to help the two of you find some middle ground, or at least some empathy for and better communication with one another. At the very least, pick up a copy of Willard Harley's _Lovebusters_ and learn about disrespectful judgements and how they can erode love.  

By the way, pouting about a "no" is a fantastic way to both signal that you're not an emotionally safe person and put your spouse in mind of a petulant whining child. So, if that's what you're going for, by all means continue. If you want to improve your sex life, however, then you need to knock that sh!t off. Immediately.


----------



## I Don't Know

MrsAldi said:


> It's funny when my husband started ignoring me about sex & became distant, I completely changed my attitude towards everything.
> 
> Maybe you're too nice to her? And perhaps she's taking things for granted? You love her so much & she knows that and thinks you'll never leave her. And that notion alone can be detrimental in itself.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


I feel like she takes things for granted sometimes. Little things I do don't get a thank you anymore. When we first started dating me taking her plate to the kitchen blew her away. No one had ever done that, it was her job to do theirs. We used to cook every meal together. I was saying we used to do that together, it was part of our quality time. She even put it in her wedding vows that she loved how we cooked every meal together stealing a kiss between stirring a pot and checking the oven. Now she gets home and maybe starts dinner, I get home and finish it. She plays on her phone. When I said I missed cooking together and felt like it was just my job now she said, "I'm lazy. Got it! I'll cook every meal from now on!"

But this is how she fights. When I said we didn't need to spend xxx dollars for the kids to go skating one weekend because rent was due..."Fine, I won't spend a dime without your approval! Got it!"


----------



## EleGirl

I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> I don't think its a covert contract. Maybe it is. I don't expect that flowers = sex. I was saying I want to do special things for her because I love her. I desire her more intensely and more often because I love her. I don't get why it's not the same for her. I understand that it's not but it doesn't make sense to me.


The way you talk about it sounds like you are setting up a covert contract.



I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> The conventional wisdom is that a good attentive husband's wife wants him. An inattentive husbands wife does not. But neither way affects her desire. Be a crap bag cheater that does nothing around the house and never bought her a single birthday, christmas or valentine's gift or a decent husband that tries to show her love every day, she still wants both equally.


Clearly she does not want both equally because she’s no longer with the crap bag cheater. So she wants him zero now.



I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> The cooking breakfast is every weekend... both days. And going to the grocery store is to pick up flowers for her before she wakes up. I don't expect those things to make her want sex. I think it's part of being a decent husband and being a decent husband should make her want sex.


She does want sex with you. She has sex with you 2 to 3 times a week. From what you said, it takes a few days for her hormones to settle out after sex to a point that she wants more sex. All the breakfast cooking and early morning shopping is not going to change how her body handles the hormone production and uptake.

But, if you did not do those things, the things that a decent person does, then she would most likely get to the point where she does not want sex with you even 2 or 3 times a week.


I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> Where does it stop being a covert contract and start being just normal expectations of marriage? It's ok for people to expect sex be a part of their marriage, right? When a guy says he's not getting enough the questions are asked. Do you do your fair share? Do you still date her? If not how do you expect her to want sex with you? That's not a covert contract but if you already do those things it is? I'm seriously asking. The line is unclear to me.


People ask those questions to get an idea of what is going on in the marriage. 
Of course it’s ok for people to expect sex in marriage. The issue is that there are two people involved in a marriage and they often have different sex drives. There is nothing wrong with her wanting sex 2-3 times a week. There is nothing wrong with you wanting it more than 2-3 times a week. 

But you making a pass at her, and then throwing a hissy fit when she rejects the pass will only drive her away from you. You reacting like that will lead to less sex, not more.
So basically, what you are saying is that you are unhappy with your sex life because you feel that you want/need more sex and she’s not willing to have more sex because her desire for sex is less than your desire.

Well that’s who she is. You could try the things in the books that I suggested to inspire more desire and passion. But you don’t seem open to that. You just want her to be more into you sexually.

So if you are this unhappy about the sex in your marriage, then the two of you are not sexually compatible and maybe you need to think about divorce.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> I don't think its a covert contract. Maybe it is. I don't expect that flowers = sex. I was saying I want to do special things for her because I love her. I desire her more intensely and more often because I love her. I don't get why it's not the same for her. I understand that it's not but it doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> The conventional wisdom is that a good attentive husband's wife wants him. An inattentive husbands wife does not. But neither way affects her desire. Be a crap bag cheater that does nothing around the house and never bought her a single birthday, christmas or valentine's gift or a decent husband that tries to show her love every day, she still wants both equally.
> 
> The cooking breakfast is every weekend... both days. And going to the grocery store is to pick up flowers for her before she wakes up. I don't expect those things to make her want sex. I think it's part of being a decent husband and being a decent husband should make her want sex. Where does it stop being a covert contract and start being just normal expectations of marriage? It's ok for people to expect sex be a part of their marriage, right? When a guy says he's not getting enough the questions are asked. Do you do your fair share? Do you still date her? If not how do you expect her to want sex with you? That's not a covert contract but if you already do those things it is? I'm seriously asking. The line is unclear to me.


Dude...you have a healthy sex life, I cannot believe you are griping about this! I can tell you from first hand experience that POUTING and having a bad attitude over being turned down will only blow up in your face in the form of LESS SEX. 

This IS a covert contract because, expectation of sex IS part of marriage, but you are linking it to everything you do for her. You are expecting to be rewarded! You already acknowledged that acts of service is NOT her primary love language, yet you keep digging away at that because it is YOUR belief that it should be! I am not downing you for doing these things, I am pointing out that it isn't what she needs to feel loved. I know you keep insisting that you do these things because you love her, but I have to be honest, it comes across that you do them with the expectation of sex. Your goal should be making her feel loved. Period. She should want sex with you because she LOVES you and DESIRES you, not to reward you for being a "decent husband."

I thinks its terribly unfair that you think she is supposed to want to have sex closer together, or whatever it was...why are you pushing this? You have a willing partner who loves you, and you are going to end up making it to where she does not want it AT ALL. You are not the only person in this, she counts too! What if she had the expectation of YOU that you were supposed to perform 3 times a night for her, exactly 35 minutes apart? And then she gets mad when you are not able to get it up, and pout and gripe at you about it?? Not YOUR fault, right?? No different for her... you were together the night before, so maybe she isn't capable of it in the morning! She has the right to turn it down, same as you do. Tread carefully on this dude, you are not going to like the outcome if you keep this up.


----------



## EleGirl

I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> Yes it would be quality time. Acts of service did come in second when she took it. We spend every minute of the day when not working together. I built her raised garden beds so she could plant a garden. I cook her and the kids breakfast on the weekends and let her sleep in.


Can you clarify? When you built the garden beds, did you do it alone or was she working side-by-side with you? How long did it take?

Making breakfast while she is asleep is not quality time together. It's an act of service. 



I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> She does a lot of things for me too. Not saying she doesn't. I just wish she would understand it's not I don't love her without sex. It's not I don't feel loved without sex. It was your rejection hurt me today and because sex and your desire validate me and make me feel loved. And she called me a liar.


YOu had sex the night before and then wanted it again in the morning. She takes 2-3 days to get to the point of wanting sex again. So you want her to be someone she is not. And if she acts like who she really is, that's not good for you... you get angry and throw a fit. I can see why that's a turn off for her.


----------



## I Don't Know

@Rowan I agree about knocking that **** off.

It's not a set number. Sometimes 2 times is great, 3 is most times enough. It's just that it has to be those numbers. There has to be 2-3 days in between. If I happened to want to go a second round, tough cookies. Although, last night she did say that the weeks we do 3 is against her wants. So, I guess she compromised.

She also said that when she's not in the mood nothing I can do will get her in the mood. If she's kinda in the mood I can get her in the mood. And if she wants it out right then she wants it. But I'm supposed to know which mood she is in and when and react accordingly.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

We can't tell exactly what's going on in your wife's head because we can't see your interactions. But I think it's important for you to closely examine all the types of interactions you have and really find out which matter to her.

For example, it's my contention (ladies - please respond) that the very small things can actually matter the most. When my W texts me during the day, I almost ALWAYS respond right away. When she calls, I almost ALWAYS answer. I'll let her talk a bit too. Only then I might say "I just stepped out if a meeting - can I call you back in xxx minutes?"

How many guys actually do that? I've never really seen that at work. BUT my wife feels like she connected, she matters, and I'm interested in what she has to say. We have 5 kids too so it could be / usually is about a kid or event or plan. And these things weigh on her and she is juggling a lot so letting her vent and get her thoughts validated is very important.

If you add up all the little connections it matters when you have 5 kids. I get that it's all about them now and time alone falls often in the wish or nice to have list. So the smaller things become very important.

Regarding sex I think it's important to discuss. If you need it daily or more ok say so. Ask her. Agree to some goals regarding timing and frequency over the next month and see how you both feel about it. Let her know you'll probably masturbate to porn the rest of the time, which is not your preference, but you respect her frequency needs too. You might be surprised by the response. She could say "deal!". She could say I can't plan it then you have to keep talking. And she might be surprised you openly tell her you'll be watching porn the rest of the time. In my case, my W didn't like that at all - she realized I really did need more frequent sex - and preferred to change and focus on us nightly and view it as bonding. But she's an exceptional and very agreeable woman so I'm lucky there.

But do examine this and talk openly and LISTEN (which is really hard sometimes). Good luck.

Btw I don't take her comments all literally - I hear her saying "I don't feel heard all the time" (sorry just took a 20 minute call from my W while writing this).


----------



## I Don't Know

EleGirl said:


> The way you talk about it sounds like you are setting up a covert contract.
> 
> 
> Clearly she does not want both equally because she’s no longer with the crap bag cheater. So she wants him zero now.
> 
> 
> She does want sex with you. She has sex with you 2 to 3 times a week. From what you said, it takes a few days for her hormones to settle out after sex to a point that she wants more sex. All the breakfast cooking and early morning shopping is not going to change how her body handles the hormone production and uptake.
> 
> But, if you did not do those things, the things that a decent person does, then she would most likely get to the point where she does not want sex with you even 2 or 3 times a week.
> 
> People ask those questions to get an idea of what is going on in the marriage.
> Of course it’s ok for people to expect sex in marriage. The issue is that there are two people involved in a marriage and they often have different sex drives. There is nothing wrong with her wanting sex 2-3 times a week. There is nothing wrong with you wanting it more than 2-3 times a week.
> 
> But you making a pass at her, and then throwing a hissy fit when she rejects the pass will only drive her away from you. You reacting like that will lead to less sex, not more.
> So basically, what you are saying is that you are unhappy with your sex life because you feel that you want/need more sex and she’s not willing to have more sex because her desire for sex is less than your desire.
> 
> Well that’s who she is.* You could try the things in the books that I suggested to inspire more desire and passion. *But you don’t seem open to that. You just want her to be more into you sexually.
> 
> So if you are this unhappy about the sex in your marriage, then the two of you are not sexually compatible and maybe you need to think about divorce.


This differs from a covert contract? I guess it's about expecting a certain outcome. But if you're trying something how are you not expecting an outcome?

I am open to the books.


----------



## I Don't Know

EleGirl said:


> Can you clarify? When you built the garden beds, did you do it alone or was she working side-by-side with you? How long did it take?
> 
> Making breakfast while she is asleep is not quality time together. It's an act of service.
> 
> 
> YOu had sex the night before and then wanted it again in the morning. She takes 2-3 days to get to the point of wanting sex again. So you want her to be someone she is not. And if she acts like who she really is, that's not good for you... you get angry and throw a fit. I can see why that's a turn off for her.


Her second is acts of service. And she told me when dating that she would rather have help around the house than gifts.

Together sorta. She talked to her mom and helped when I needed a hand. I say built them for her because she wanted the garden.

We also built a room divider/wardrobe together. Our bed. And all the kids beds. But that was a year or more ago.


----------



## I Don't Know

TheTruthHurts said:


> We can't tell exactly what's going on in your wife's head because we can't see your interactions. But I think it's important for you to closely examine all the types of interactions you have and really find out which matter to her.
> 
> For example, it's my contention (ladies - please respond) that the very small things can actually matter the most. When my W texts me during the day, I almost ALWAYS respond right away. When she calls, I almost ALWAYS answer. I'll let her talk a bit too. Only then I might say "I just stepped out if a meeting - can I call you back in xxx minutes?"
> 
> How many guys actually do that? I've never really seen that at work. BUT my wife feels like she connected, she matters, and I'm interested in what she has to say. We have 5 kids too so it could be / usually is about a kid or event or plan. And these things weigh on her and she is juggling a lot so letting her vent and get her thoughts validated is very important.
> 
> If you add up all the little connections it matters when you have 5 kids. I get that it's all about them now and time alone falls often in the wish or nice to have list. So the smaller things become very important.
> 
> Regarding sex I think it's important to discuss. If you need it daily or more ok say so. Ask her. Agree to some goals regarding timing and frequency over the next month and see how you both feel about it. Let her know you'll probably masturbate to porn the rest of the time, which is not your preference, but you respect her frequency needs too. You might be surprised by the response. She could say "deal!". She could say I can't plan it then you have to keep talking. And she might be surprised you openly tell her you'll be watching porn the rest of the time. In my case, my W didn't like that at all - she realized I really did need more frequent sex - and preferred to change and focus on us nightly and view it as bonding. But she's an exceptional and very agreeable woman so I'm lucky there.
> 
> But do examine this and talk openly and LISTEN (which is really hard sometimes). Good luck.
> 
> Btw I don't take her comments all literally - I hear her saying "I don't feel heard all the time" (sorry just took a 20 minute call from my W while writing this).


She forbid me to watch porn. Said she wanted to be my outlet when i needed it.

Edit i say forbid in a joking way. She didnt say never do this only that she would rather i use that energy with her. But that was at the beginning of your relationship.


----------



## MrsAldi

@I STILL DON'T KNOW you remind me of my husband's friend, he's always doing everything thing for his wife. At first she liked it but suddenly realised that he was quite needy & this became a turn off for her after a couple of years of marriage. 

Your nice gestures can quickly become suffocating because you except something in return like a high volume of sex perhaps? 

So in turn your nice lovely behaviour turns into needy & suffocating because you're begging/demanding sex. 

Needy men & women are never ever attractive! 

So think about changing your behaviour, you cannot except sex in exchange for gifts or chores. 









Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## I Don't Know

No she doesn't have to every time. But I do need her to enjoy it in some way.

Edit... Oh but last night she made it clear that if she doesn't want it then it can't be about a connection. It's just me using her to unload.


----------



## Buddy400

I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> The conventional wisdom is that a good attentive husband's wife wants him. An inattentive husbands wife does not.


I'm afraid that the conventional wisdom regarding women in this case is often wrong.


----------



## Lila

@I STILL DON'T KNOW 

I may have you confused with another poster but don't you suffer from retroactive jealousy? If this is so, do you think your reaction to being rejected (comparison with your w's ex husband, etc...) could be a result of the RJ?


----------



## I Don't Know

I know she can't force it. She probably does feel pressured. She probably feels like it's never enough. I know I was wrong to pout and leave. Was wrong to try for sex again so soon. The night before was really great and it's not unheard of for people to do it more than once every 3 days. But like she said I get it more than most guys.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I wouldn't accept your W's mischaracterization of your need for sex. I'd call bs. 

She gets to choose - work with you so your needs for sex and your marital commitment to only fulfill your sexual needs with her; or work with you on a basis and frequency that meets her needs, and you will take care of your needs the rest of the time.

I own my sexuality and my W owns hers. I prefer to share mine 100% but I certainly don't require that.

I also respect my W's role in sex when we're together. We both very much enjoy giving each other pleasure, so are happy to please the other even if we don't have a need to O or can't get there. PIV works when our desire and needs match. BJ or HJ when they're mismatched. Solo when sick or unable. Both needs addressed; both content with that aspect.

It's really not rocket science and it's not an offensive thing to either of us. But we are only this way since I came to TAM and realized my sexual needs are as valid as her communication needs. His Needs Her Needs helped us realize our perspectives about each other weren't accurate. 30+ years together and daily intimacy only over the past 18 months or so.

I think it's a big mistake to allow your W to continue to assert and believe that your needs aren't valid, and you are lying when you say you aren't just using her to get off. Frankly, that attitude is a huge red flag that she is either resentful or just a disagreeable woman. Wouldn't fly with me. To clarify - I don't object to her having a different drive and not wanting sex more than x amount of the time - I do object to her misrepresenting you views and trying to own your sexuality by not having daily sex and expressing displeasure with you doing it yourself.


----------



## I Don't Know

lila, yes that's me. It absolutely amplifies the pain of rejection.


----------



## Lila

I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> lila, yes that's me. It absolutely amplifies the pain of rejection.


Eek! I'm sorry about that. I vaguely recall you were in therapy for it??? If so, did you therapist teach you techniques to help you cope when these situations arise?


----------



## Buddy400

I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> last night she did say that the weeks we do 3 is against her wants.


Well, she's not going out of her way to help you out here. She's saying "I already have more sex with you than I want".



I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> She forbid me to watch porn. Said she wanted to be my outlet when i needed it.
> 
> But that was at the beginning of our relationship.


Yeah, remind her of that. Ask if she's changed her opinion.

She's just gotten *very *comfortable in the relationship. And it's not just the sex, it's cooking together, etc. 

If you want things to change, first try to get her to truly understand where you're coming from (very small chance of working, but worth a try). Then start withdrawing and working on a 180.

Or, just live with the fact that this is the way it's going to be.

It's true that complaining about being rejected for sex isn't good. But if the only way you'll get sex is by initiating 3 times for every success, that might not be a ratio you can live with.

AT some point, I think I'd be tempted to stop initiating, watch porn and masturbate. If she initiates, tell her that you're sorry but you just took care of things on your own.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> lila, yes that's me. It absolutely amplifies the pain of rejection.


Ah, ok, I remember those posts....dude you're lucky to still have her...


----------



## I Don't Know

Lila said:


> Eek! I'm sorry about that. I vaguely recall you were in therapy for it??? If so, did you therapist teach you techniques to help you cope when these situations arise?


No therapy. Not that I wouldn't, we just aren't in an area to get access easily. There were some things I did that seem to work. Picturing a black hole sucking the thoughts out of my head while singing Black Hole Sun in my head works. Sometimes I start spinning though and it's hard to remember I WANT to stop those feelings.



3Xnocharm said:


> Ah, ok, I remember those posts....dude you're lucky to still have her...


Yeah, VERY much so.


----------



## Buddy400

TheTruthHurts said:


> my sexual needs are as valid as her communication needs.


Here's the thing, if you had a long talk last night with your wife about everything that's going on in her life, the next morning she wanted to talk some more, you said "not now, I'm all talked out" and she was upset by what you said, would everybody be telling her that she should stop "pouting" and just deal with it? After all, you talk to her three times a week (even though you've told her you really only want to communicate twice a week, so she knows you really don;t like it).

How about if you only have these talks when *you're* in the mood?



TheTruthHurts said:


> I think it's a big mistake to allow your W to continue to assert and believe that your needs aren't valid, and you are lying when you say you aren't just using her to get off. Frankly, that attitude is a huge red flag that she is either resentful or just a disagreeable woman. Wouldn't fly with me. To clarify - I don't object to her having a different drive and not wanting sex more than x amount of the time - I do object to her misrepresenting you views and trying to own your sexuality by not having daily sex and expressing displeasure with you doing it yourself.


QFT. It's easy to look at this as OP whining, but I see red flags all over the place, and not just because of the sex.


----------



## Buddy400

3Xnocharm said:


> Ah, ok, I remember those posts....dude you're lucky to still have her...





I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> Yeah, VERY much so.


I'm not so sure.


----------



## Cletus

I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> When does it have to do with my needs?


When your needs are reasonable. 

Pouting about not getting sex twice in 12 hours falls short of reasonable by no small amount.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Buddy400 said:


> Here's the thing, if you had a long talk last night with your wife about everything that's going on in her life, the next morning she wanted to talk some more, you said "not now, I'm all talked out" and she was upset by what you said, would everybody be telling her that she should stop "pouting" and just deal with it? After all, you talk to her three times a week (even though you've told her you really only want to communicate twice a week, so she knows you really don;t like it).
> 
> How about if you only have these talks when *you're* in the mood?
> 
> 
> 
> QFT. It's easy to look at this as OP whining, but I see red flags all over the place, and not just because of the sex.


Interesting. So would your viewpoint change if not only were you expected to talk to her but you were also expected to enjoy it every time she wanted to talk? 

It's one thing to ask someone to do you a favor. It's quite another to demand they enjoy it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Buddy400

lifeistooshort said:


> Interesting. So would your viewpoint change if not only were you expected to talk to her but you were also expected to enjoy it every time she wanted to talk?
> 
> It's one thing to ask someone to do you a favor. It's quite another to demand they enjoy it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Talking to her while making it obvious that I didn't want to would be a d!ck move. 

If I'm going to engage in a conversation with her, I would do my best to "be there", I'd realize how important this was to her and do my best to be attentive.


----------



## lifeistooshort

I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> When does it have to do with my needs?


My hb walked the mall with me Saturday night. 

I asked him to go again on Sunday but he turned me down. 

I pouted, because when will it ever be about my needs?

See how ridiculous it looks when you put it like that? 

I mean, it's reasonable for me to give him a couple of days, especially if I'm going to demand be enjoy it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blondilocks

Here's a clue: you getting pissed and pouty and taking off means you left her to take care of 5 kids. They weren't even all hers. Yeah, you really showed her you love her. You reinforced the nagging feeling that she's just a vagina to you.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Buddy400 said:


> Talking to her while making it obvious that I didn't want to would be a d!ck move.
> 
> If I'm going to engage in a conversation with her, I would do my best to "be there", I'd realize how important this was to her and do my best to be attentive.


Fair enough. But your ability to fake enjoyment might be a bit limited depending on what she wants to talk about and how often she wants to do it, and demanding you engage in discussions you don't particularly enjoy on a daily basis might be unfair to you. 

I suppose I get a sense of ME ME ME AND MY NEEDS from this poster.

Marriage is about balancing the needs of both, and I just can't wrap my head around how being turned down the morning after you had sex equals being rejected. 

Maybe she has a need to recover. Is that not important? If I don't recover I don't enjoy the next round. 

But maybe I've misunderstood what's going on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

Blondilocks said:


> Here's a clue: you getting pissed and pouty and taking off means you left her to take care of 5 kids. They weren't even all hers. Yeah, you really showed her you love her. You reinforced the nagging feeling that she's just a vagina to you.



Not just a vagina.

Also a nanny! For some kids that aren't even hers. 

Nice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## I Don't Know

Ok so the kids that were home are hers. 4 girls 13-17. It's her ex thay can't be bothered to get his kids on his weekends. My daughter was with her mom.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Buddy400

lifeistooshort said:


> But maybe I've misunderstood what's going on.





I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> Incase you cant tell, this is I Don't Know.
> 
> Anyway, Saturday night my wife and I had sex. Sunday morning I start feeling the mood again, but she rejects. *Maybe it was because I feel like the rejections are coming more often now* and in the form of ignoring me and a subject change, but I took it way harder than I should have. I did pout, not proud but I did.
> 
> I left the house. She texted asking were I went. I told her and she says thanks for asking me. I replied No problem, thanks for rejecting me. After her acting like she had no idea what I was talking about we eventually get to a place where I tell her, sex and being wanted by you is how I feel loved. Oh hell, wrong thing to say. *Spent the rest of the night defending myself for saying I don't love her if she won't have sex and that sex is all that matters to me and she should just lay there and take it. I never said any of that.* I love her so damn much, but I feel like she fights dirty. She will take my words to the worst possible extreme and that's that. *I'm a liar and sex isn't how I feel loved. So I send her 2 articles saying the same thing. One from forgiven wife. So now maybe it's true but men are ridiculous to feel that way.*
> 
> Progress the fight forward and she's saying that nothing I do makes her feel loved. I could stop doing anything and it wouldn't affect how she feels loved by me. And how I treat her makes no difference in her sex drive. Here's the kick in the nuts. *She says she wanted sex just as often with her cheating ex, or any of the guys she was with between him and me, as she does with me.* It's just her drive and her feelings for me or them didn't effect it in any way.
> 
> IDK, guess I just needed to talk it out.


The bolded statements are disturbing.



I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> I feel like she takes things for granted sometimes. Little things I do don't get a thank you anymore. When we first started dating me taking her plate to the kitchen blew her away. No one had ever done that, it was her job to do theirs. *We used to cook every meal together. I was saying we used to do that together, it was part of our quality time. She even put it in her wedding vows that she loved how we cooked every meal together stealing a kiss between stirring a pot and checking the oven. Now she gets home and maybe starts dinner, I get home and finish it. She plays on her phone. When I said I missed cooking together and felt like it was just my job now she said, "I'm lazy. Got it! I'll cook every meal from now on!"*
> 
> But this is how she fights. When I said we didn't need to spend xxx dollars for the kids to go skating one weekend because rent was due..."Fine, I won't spend a dime without your approval! Got it!"


And this



I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> She forbid me to watch porn. Said she wanted to be my outlet when i needed it.
> 
> Edit i say forbid in a joking way. She didnt say never do this only that she would rather i use that energy with her. But that was at the beginning of your relationship.





I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> Oh but last night she made it clear that if she doesn't want it then it can't be about a connection. * It's just me using her to unload.*


Sure, he made one post about "his needs".

But none of this is good.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

Blondilocks said:


> Here's a clue: you getting pissed and pouty and taking off means you left her to take care of 5 kids. They weren't even all hers. Yeah, you really showed her you love her. You reinforced the nagging feeling that she's just a vagina to you.


Ouch... whether 4 or 5, that will leave a mark.


----------



## philreag

Women control 100% of the p***y.


----------



## Blondilocks

philreag said:


> Women control 100% of the p***y.


That's right and don't forget it.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Hey guys... can we NOT make this another thread of TAM men and women arguing that sex "all the time" means she's just a vagina to him and "never initiating or wanting sex" makes her a callous b1tch?

OP has valid needs, some really poor responses and some less than desirable communication skills and his W seems to have resentment and takes him for granted. 

Let's try to address his issues... if we can


----------



## Cletus

philreag said:


> Women control 100% of the p***y.


Pshha. 

I own 10% of it. That part with the mole that makes it hard to shave, where it's a little lopsided? 

That's all mine, bub.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Festivus said:


> philreag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Women control 100% of the p***y.
> 
> 
> 
> Pshha.
> 
> I own 10% of it. That part with the mole that makes it hard to shave, where it's a little lopsided?
> 
> That's all mine, bub.
Click to expand...

I thought you owned the taint. 'cause it taint either place that you own.


----------



## soccermom2three

TheTruthHurts said:


> Hey guys... can we NOT make this another thread of TAM men and women arguing that sex "all the time" means she's just a vagina to him and "never initiating or wanting sex" makes her a callous b1tch?
> 
> OP has valid needs, some really poor responses and some less than desirable communication skills and his W seems to have resentment and takes him for granted.
> 
> Let's try to address his issues... if we can


Well, it's not going to happen for him if he's pissy and pouty. I read his first post and it was a big turn off. 

Maybe he should read Bad Santa new thread on what turned around his sex life with his wife.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/340177-what-has-helped-badsanta-fix-his-ld-hd-situation.html


----------



## Blondilocks

Are you saying Ellis and badsanta are one and the same?:surprise::wink2:


----------



## alexm

Livvie said:


> I think this is pretty out of the ordinary. She is saying her desire to have sex with a man isn't related at all to how he treats her or how she feels about him...
> 
> If this is the truth, then sex for her is completely unrelated to the relationship she has with a man!
> 
> She is making a point with it to let you know there is NOTHING you can do to make her desire you more. Whether you are a cheating a$$, or provide her with a wonderful relationship, she would want sex with you the same amount.
> 
> I'd have a very hard time wrapping my head around this if my partner said this to me.


There is some truth to that, however. Some people (my wife counts herself as one) feel that sex is just sex.

That said, we DO have more sex when there is more intimacy and quality time spent together.

However, it has nothing to do with how I treat her (ie. buy her flowers, be more loving, more attentive, etc.) Those things have no bearing on frequency of sex. It took me a while to learn that.

So at the end of the day, there's nothing *I* can do to increase frequency of sex in our marriage. I am (almost) always loving, attentive, caring, thoughtful, etc. but life gets in the way and prevents us from being fully relaxed, stress and worry-free. But it's at those times when we are able to break away from the day-to-day where sexual intimacy will increase for short periods of time.

Even when we have sex, she is, pardon my French, f***ing. She's not an emotional lover, it's not romantic, it's not out of a mainstream movie. It's out of "other" movies :wink2:

Sex, for her, is pleasurable, and that's about it. She receives her emotional connections in other ways, outside of the bedroom. Going out to dinner, just the two of us. Going for walks and holding hands. And yes - dragging me to bingo! (lol!) When I do things with her that SHE enjoys, she feels a connection with me.

Sex is not one of them. Sex for her is to get off, have a few orgasms, and have fun. Animalistic. And like OP's wife, she's good for a while after having sex. And that's the thing that I had to rectify most in my own brain - that she's good to go for a week. It's rare that we have sex more than once a week. It does happen, but that second time is not as intense. There have been times where, through circumstance, it's been 2, 3 weeks in between. But when it's been that long, she's an absolute animal. Then she's satisfied for the week again...

It's not ideal for me. I get a connection with her during those times, so once a week is bare minimum, but it is what it is.

So for some people, yes, sex is just sex, purely physical and upping your marriage game has little to no effect.


----------



## EleGirl

TheTruthHurts said:


> Hey guys... can we NOT make this another thread of TAM men and women arguing that sex "all the time" means she's just a vagina to him and "never initiating or wanting sex" makes her a callous b1tch?
> 
> OP has valid needs, some really poor responses and some less than desirable communication skills and his W seems to have resentment and takes him for granted.
> 
> Let's try to address his issues... if we can


I think you are right that there are under lying issues. That's why some of us are asking questions about things other than sex. It's to figure out "the rest of the story".

One thing that I think is being left out here is that the OP, from his previous posts, has a large amount of retroactive jealousy about his wife's past. And if I remember correctly, he's done/said things in the past to his wife about this that might have seriously damaged their relationship.

Since we only get one side of the story here on TAM, we often have to do a lot of digging to get to the core of the problem.


----------



## I Don't Know

I wasn't trying to leave anything out. I'm not proud the RJ, but I did give my previous user name so anyone who was familiar with it would know it's me. RJ has been much better lately but yes it's still there, and when something like this happens it comes right to the front of my mind. I know I've done many things that have damaged our relationship. Started too many fights about the past. So, yeah I'm lying in the bed I made.

I want to repair what I can. This post wasn't trying to justify getting pissy about being turned down for a second time. I don't see why it's unreasonable to want to go 2 times in 12 hours, unlikely to happen but it's not like I ask for that every time either.

Mostly this post was about me telling my wife that sex is how I feel loved and her not believing it. Then sending her articles that supported what I was saying and she still didn't really believe it or thought it was stupid. Never about justifying my ****y behavior.


Badsanta's post is awesome. It's 99% what my wife was saying she feels. It's advice I will follow. I'm sure I will mess up sometimes but hopefully I can do well enough that my wife no longer feels like a piece of meat.


----------



## soccermom2three

Blondilocks said:


> Are you saying Ellis and badsanta are one and the same?:surprise::wink2:


Oops, I meant BadSanta. My last post before bed, I guess I was tired. I will fix it.


----------



## Cletus

I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> I want to repair what I can. This post wasn't trying to justify getting pissy about being turned down for a second time. I don't see why it's unreasonable to want to go 2 times in 12 hours, unlikely to happen but it's not like I ask for that every time either.


That's the problem in a nutshell, though.

You don't see why it's unreasonable, because for you it isn't. But more than that, you fail to grasp even the basic premise that someone else, someone to whom you are married, does find it unreasonable. Or if not unreasonable, at least an indicator that no level of effort on her part will ever satisfy you. 

For there to be some equanimity in the relationship, you have to be willing to accept no" as often as she's willing to say "yes".


----------



## EleGirl

I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> I wasn't trying to leave anything out.


I don’t think you were. It is important info.


I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> I'm not proud the RJ, but I did give my previous user name so anyone who was familiar with it would know it's me.


What is your previous user name? You are not allowed to have more than one account on TAM. I will need to close that account. You also might want to put that user name in your signature block so that people can read it when you post.


I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> RJ has been much better lately but yes it's still there, and when something like this happens it comes right to the front of my mind. I know I've done many things that have damaged our relationship. Started too many fights about the past. So, yeah I'm lying in the bed I made.


See, this is why that info is important. Part of the problem now is probably the damage that you did not the past to your relationship with the RJ outbursts. Your wife might still be having trouble handling all that. It would be no surprise if she is. `


I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> I want to repair what I can. This post wasn't trying to justify getting pissy about being turned down for a second time. I don't see why it's unreasonable to want to go 2 times in 12 hours, unlikely to happen but it's not like I ask for that every time either.


It's not unreasonable to want to have sex twice in 12 hours. What is unreasonable is the reaction you had… pouting, leaving the house in a huff, and then telling her that you were pissed off and making a big deal out of it. You have the right to want sex twice in 12 hours. She has the right to not want sex twice in 12 hours.


I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> Mostly this post was about me telling my wife that sex is how I feel loved and her not believing it. Then sending her articles that supported what I was saying and she still didn't really believe it or thought it was stupid. Never about justifying my ****y behavior.


Many times women have a hard time believing this because of the way many men talk and behave about sex. We are taught that men are always ready for sex, with anyone, anywhere. They just want sex. It is certainly portrayed this way in the popular culture, in literature, and just about anywhere a woman goes where there are men hanging around.

Here is the thing, if you want to use the reason sex is how you feel loved, then why is it that having sex the night before was not enough to make you feel loved? See, there is a contradiction here that you wife might be picking up on…. Sex makes me feel loved. But that sex we had last night, it was not enough to make me feel loved. But sex this morning will make me feel loved.
Also, there is another point about sex making you feel loved. It’s also supposed to be the way a man expresses love, shows love. IF you leave this off, then it sounds like it’s all about you getting what you need.



I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> Badsanta's post is awesome. It's 99% what my wife was saying she feels. It's advice I will follow. I'm sure I will mess up sometimes but hopefully I can do well enough that my wife no longer feels like a piece of meat.


Good


----------



## I Don't Know

@EleGirl. My previous username is I Don't Know. I'd actually rather have that account but I no longer have access to the email associated with that name. When the password reset happened I lost access to that account. Followed the directions using the "contact us" button but never got a response.


----------



## EleGirl

Festivus said:


> That's the problem in a nutshell, though.
> 
> You don't see why it's unreasonable, because for you it isn't. But more than that, you fail to grasp even the basic premise that someone else, someone to whom you are married, does find it unreasonable. *Or if not unreasonable, at least an indicator that no level of effort on her part will ever satisfy you. *
> 
> For there to be some equanimity in the relationship, you have to be willing to accept no" as often as she's willing to say "yes".


That, the bolded part, is the issue.


----------



## EleGirl

I STILL DON'T KNOW said:


> @EleGirl. My previous username is I Don't Know. I'd actually rather have that account but I no longer have access to the email associated with that name. When the password reset happened I lost access to that account. Followed the directions using the "contact us" button but never got a response.


The reason that you could not reset your password is that the "I Don't Know" account was created with a different email address than your new account.

You can have both of your accounts merged into one. Send a PM to Yungster (It's the TAM administrator account) and explain that you no longer have access to the email used to create the "I Don't Know" account so you cannot reset that password. Ask them to merge the two accounts and set the email account to the one in your new account.

Once the merge is complete, please send me a PM to inform me.

:smile2:


----------



## I Don't Know

EleGirl said:


> Many times women have a hard time believing this because of the way many men talk and behave about sex. We are taught that men are always ready for sex, with anyone, anywhere. They just want sex. It is certainly portrayed this way in the popular culture, in literature, and just about anywhere a woman goes where there are men hanging around.
> 
> Here is the thing, if you want to use the reason sex is how you feel loved, then why is it that having sex the night before was not enough to make you feel loved? See, there is a contradiction here that you wife might be picking up on…. Sex makes me feel loved. But that sex we had last night, it was not enough to make me feel loved. But sex this morning will make me feel loved.
> Also, there is another point about sex making you feel loved. It’s also supposed to be the way a man expresses love, shows love. IF you leave this off, then it sounds like it’s all about you getting what you need.
> Good


Good points. Further confusing is that sex isn't always about feeling loved or showing love.


----------



## Buddy400

Festivus said:


> For there to be some equanimity in the relationship, you have to be willing to accept no" as often as she's willing to say "yes".


If she NEVER wants sex, then yes, him accepting "no" as often as she says "yes" means each of them are getting what they want half the time. One would hope that she wants sex at least some of the time!

But, if when she says "yes", she wants to have sex, then he's not getting what he wants half the time and she's getting what she wants all the time. That doesn't sound like equality to me.


----------



## Blondilocks

Not following the first case. She never wants it - so if she says 'yes', she still doesn't want it so she isn't getting what she wants and he's getting some of what he wants.


----------



## Buddy400

Blondilocks said:


> Not following the first case. She never wants it - so if she says 'yes', she still doesn't want it so she isn't getting what she wants and he's getting some of what he wants.


If she never wants sex, but says "yes" half the time he initiates, then they are each getting half of what they want. He asks 10 times, she says "no" 5 times. Then he is getting what he wants (sex) half the time and she is getting what she wants (no sex) half the time.


----------



## Livvie

Buddy400 said:


> Blondilocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not following the first case. She never wants it - so if she says 'yes', she still doesn't want it so she isn't getting what she wants and he's getting some of what he wants.
> 
> 
> 
> If she never wants sex, but says "yes" half the time he initiates, then they are each getting half of what they want. He asks 10 times, she says "no" 5 times. Then he is getting what he wants (sex) half the time and she is getting what she wants (no sex) half the time.
Click to expand...

The problem with this scenario is that she NEVER wants sex!


----------



## norajane

Livvie said:


> The problem with this scenario is that she NEVER wants sex!


How can she? She is always having sex more often than she wants, so when is she going to have time to build up to wanting sex? If you eat all day long, you're never going to actually be hungry.


----------



## Buddy400

norajane said:


> How can she? She is always having sex more often than she wants, so when is she going to have time to build up to wanting sex? If you eat all day long, you're never going to actually be hungry.


What if she needs months to "build up" to wanting sex?


----------



## Cletus

Buddy400 said:


> What if she needs months to "build up" to wanting sex?


Then it would seem that the burden for the current regimen of 2-3 times a week he's enjoying is being born nicely by her.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Every time I read a thread like this.. I just feel bad for the high drive... I really don't know what to offer... 

I can understand where you are coming from I don't know.. you are a man with feelings.. it would be so much easier if you just didn't care, if it all just rolled off of you...if you were like a "stone"... but us feelers struggle with that.. what can you do. It Sucks !


----------



## I Don't Know

Thanks @SimplyAmorous. I want to say that I'm not deprived at all. We have a good sex life and she is usually willing and enthusiastic. This whole thing came from MY poor reaction.

On the other hand... Just like a lot of people don't like the idea of a sex quota or a minimum number of times per week or month or whatever, it bothers me that there seems to be a hard limit. But it is what it is.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I Don't Know said:


> Thanks @SimplyAmorous. I want to say that I'm not deprived at all. We have a good sex life and she is usually willing and enthusiastic. This whole thing came from MY poor reaction.
> 
> On the other hand... Just like a lot of people don't like the idea of a sex quota or a minimum number of times per week or month or whatever, it bothers me that there seems to be a hard limit. But it is what it is.


I wouldn't like the limit either.. just being honest.. I don't handle rejection well..not when I am craving it.. I would take it pretty personally.. so if this happens to someone else.. I can understand it.. even if you let it get the best of you.. even if you screwed up / could have handled your reaction better.. I still "feel" for you.. that's all I am saying.. 

And hopefully our spouses can give us this sort of grace too... we all miss it sometimes..


----------



## Blondilocks

Simply Amorous, isn't it true that you weren't always amorous? Could you speak to the OP about the dark times and the effect it had on your husband?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Blondilocks said:


> Simply Amorous, isn't it true that you weren't always amorous? Could you speak to the OP about the dark times and the effect it had on your husband?


My husband was NOT assertive with me.. my situation is so far different than much of what I have read here... he never GAVE me attitude or showed he was upset.. so therefore.. I didn't "get it".. the fact I would take matters into my own hands in the middle of the night -not wanting to wake him up -feeling he may want his sleep more so.. just shows how badly* we missed each other*.. When I told him about this.. he was shocked to hear I even did that. 

I can't say I was too much of a rejecting wife.. the only time this was true.. was when I wanted him to hold off -feeling his sperm count may be depleted too much... trying to conceive (this did go on for yrs though).. which took a toll on him...

Yes.. I was way too "one tract minded" ... he should have caused a ruckus about my attitude, his needs .. but he didn't .. so again.. I really didn't realize HOW I was hurting him..

But even then.. I remember not liking the nights where I had to withhold my own orgasm (trying to conceive a girl).. I would complain about this.. (but still that was the prize to me, the priority).. did I always love sex.. YES !! I just had my head in other places.. 

More amorous now , this is true.. but it was there then too.. once he got me going.. I was always on fire.. he knew this.


----------



## Blondilocks

Thank you. It wasn't an accusation. It seemed you would be in a unique position to offer insight on both sides of the coin (so to speak).


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Blondilocks said:


> Thank you. It wasn't an accusation. It seemed you would be in a unique position to offer insight on both sides of the coin (so to speak).


 That's Ok Blondilocks... I can probably see a good man's side more so than an unwilling woman's side -just because I feel so much regret -on my own behalf.. where it could have been so EASY for me. 

I can't offer a truly Low drive position.. 

I became very emotional, deep regret / bordering ANGER with my husband when I learned he stuffed his emotions all those years...I felt I had a right to know..that this "stole" something from us.. 

When I hear women complain about these things, that the husband shows some ANGER, some IRRITATION *that he wants her*...... I think to myself.. "well dang it.. I wish my husband did [email protected]#$"... because stuffing isn't any better ... some resentment sprang in him.. and ya know what.. not sure I deserved that.. because he should have opened up about it , told me how he was feeling.. 

But we know men.. they are conditioned..can't show too much vulnerability.. that is all weakness!.. (so they say) 

Sure he was just trying to please me.. not to bother me ... but you know ...he was always very good to me.. I wouldn't have wanted him to suffer.. I was a foolish woman.. 

One thing he knew was.. if he held out so many days. ..I would be coming after him.... so yeah..it could have been worse.. that's about how he looked at it. 

Now if a husband.. (and I don't know about "I don't know" -how he is with his wife on a daily basis).. but if the man's dissing his wife's emotional needs & expects her to just JUMP every time he wants it.. I certainly understand *her* being irritated with him.. 

Whatever the case.. I'm sure it helped to unleash it out here.. and get some feedback.. picking out what is the best course from here in.. 

My posts were more from a "empathy" perspective...that I can understand his emotions.. even if he screwed up in how he handled himself -which he seems to take responsibility for....we've all been there, right !? I surely have.


----------



## turnera

Festivus said:


> That's the problem in a nutshell, though.
> 
> You don't see why it's unreasonable, because for you it isn't. But more than that, you fail to grasp even the basic premise that someone else, someone to whom you are married, does find it unreasonable. Or if not unreasonable, at least an indicator that no level of effort on her part will ever satisfy you.
> 
> For there to be some equanimity in the relationship, you have to be willing to accept no" as often as she's willing to say "yes".


Do you see that you tried to change her?


----------



## *Deidre*

It saddens me to read threads on here posted by too many men, who simply want sex with their wives, and are made to feel badly by their wives ...to the point of being chastised, scolded and treated like children as if they are asking for too many cookies before dinner.  Idk.

She shouldn't have brought her 'cheating ex' into the discussion, not sure what he has to do with anything, but he might have a lot to do with it. If she is still bringing him up during arguments that have nothing to do with him, she's not past the pain he caused her. Hard to say if that plays into her sex drive with you, OP, but...it's something to think about.


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## I Don't Know

@*Deidre* that was me. She said her sex drive is a couple of times a week. I knew from previous talks we've had that was her frequency with her ex also, so I asked her if how I treat her or anything I do affects that at all and she said no. Now she did say that the difference is that when she wants sex, she wants sex WITH me. Where as with him she just needed sex and she didn't really care if it was with him. Not that she cheated on him or anything. Her point was that he was the only available d!ck, I guess. So, that's kinda good, kinda not so good. But whatever.


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## I Don't Know

turnera2 said:


> Do you see that you tried to change her?


Me?


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## turnera

Yeah.


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## I Don't Know

turnera2 said:


> Yeah.


No, not really. I understand what most are saying that if her drive is 2 times a week with a couple of days between then that's how it is. But does that mean it's always that way? Was it trying again so soon that is trying to change her or my reaction? I can sorta see where my reaction can seem that way, but not trying again. If I tried again within a day most/every time we had sex, I'd say yes. But I don't. I couldn't tell you the last time I did.


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## Cletus

I Don't Know said:


> No, not really. I understand what most are saying that if her drive is 2 times a week with a couple of days between then that's how it is. But does that mean it's always that way? Was it trying again so soon that is trying to change her or my reaction? I can sorta see where my reaction can seem that way, but not trying again. If I tried again within a day most/every time we had sex, I'd say yes. But I don't. I couldn't tell you the last time I did.


I think it means that you should view a request 12 hours after a previous copulation to be a high likelihood of failure proposition, and to be prepared to react accordingly. "React accordingly" means expect to be shot down more than you succeed, be gracious when it happens, and grateful when when you succeed. 

Disappointment is a lot less painful when your expectations are in line with reality.


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## turnera

I Don't Know said:


> @*Deidre* that was me. She said her sex drive is a couple of times a week. I knew from previous talks we've had that was her frequency with her ex also, so I asked her if how I treat her or anything I do affects that at all and she said no. Now she did say that the difference is that when she wants sex, she wants sex WITH me. Where as with him she just needed sex and she didn't really care if it was with him.
> 
> She need 2-3 days to build up again and I usually give that to her while still being present for her and flirting.


So you KNOW this is her frequency, you KNOW very well more than a couple times a week is more than she wants, you TRY to get more than that (change her), and when she refuses, you POUT.

Why do people pout? (1) to feel sorry for himself/herself and (2) to elicit a RESPONSE from the other person, usually to capitulate to your way of thinking.

So, yeah, you tried to change her.

I just re-read the whole thread. I think it would benefit you to do so, too, and hear the whole thing over again, now that you've heard what people have to say.


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## Livvie

turnera2 said:


> I Don't Know said:
> 
> 
> 
> @*Deidre* that was me. She said her sex drive is a couple of times a week. I knew from previous talks we've had that was her frequency with her ex also, so I asked her if how I treat her or anything I do affects that at all and she said no. Now she did say that the difference is that when she wants sex, she wants sex WITH me. Where as with him she just needed sex and she didn't really care if it was with him.
> 
> She need 2-3 days to build up again and I usually give that to her while still being present for her and flirting.
> 
> 
> 
> So you KNOW this is her frequency, you KNOW very well more than a couple times a week is more than she wants, you TRY to get more than that (change her), and when she refuses, you POUT.
> 
> Why do people pout? (1) to feel sorry for himself/herself and (2) to elicit a RESPONSE from the other person, usually to capitulate to your way of thinking.
> 
> So, yeah, you tried to change her.
> 
> I just re-read the whole thread. I think it would benefit you to do so, too, and hear the whole thing over again, now that you've heard what people have to say.
Click to expand...

I don't agree that wanting to have sex again soon is trying to CHANGE someone, just because it's not the norm. It's being spontaneous, wanting them, and acting upon that. I usually don't want dessert more than once a week but an offer to go out for ice cream the day after I had dessert is just that... a spontaneous offer to have fun. I would never thing of it as trying to change me.


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## *Deidre*

I Don't Know said:


> @*Deidre* that was me. She said her sex drive is a couple of times a week. I knew from previous talks we've had that was her frequency with her ex also, so I asked her if how I treat her or anything I do affects that at all and she said no. Now she did say that the difference is that when she wants sex, she wants sex WITH me. Where as with him she just needed sex and she didn't really care if it was with him. Not that she cheated on him or anything. Her point was that he was the only available d!ck, I guess. So, that's kinda good, kinda not so good. But whatever.


Kinda not so good that she feels the need to share this with you, but okay. It's one thing to share things, but how often she was banging her ex, and why...not sure how this helps you out. lol


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## *Deidre*

I Don't Know said:


> No, not really. I understand what most are saying that if her drive is 2 times a week with a couple of days between then that's how it is. But does that mean it's always that way? Was it trying again so soon that is trying to change her or my reaction? I can sorta see where my reaction can seem that way, but not trying again. If I tried again within a day most/every time we had sex, I'd say yes. But I don't. I couldn't tell you the last time I did.


There needs to be a healthy compromise. But, I have to ask...would you like to have more frequency of sex with an unwilling partner? I mean, would that really arouse you all that much? So, yea...she may compromise sometimes, but will she just be laying there, bored...counting the seconds until it's over. Or minutes. lol You know what I mean.


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## Catherine602

I think you are talking about a power struggle and not sex. When you have sex now, you both want it, which is very nice. What seems to bother you is that she will not have sex when she does not want it therefore she controls how much sex you get.

Do you feel you have control in other areas of the relationship and in your life?

Your wife should never be disrespectful to you especially about something as intimate as sex. However, you may consider this. Sex should be mutually satisfying. If you are both happy at the frequency you have now, it's mutually satisfying. 

Do you want to have sex with her if she will not enjoy it? It may be hard for her to reconcile how sex = love when you get angry when she does not want to have sex that she will not enjoy.

If you love her and want to show her with sex, wouldn't you want it when it satisfies her as well as yourself? By your actions you are telling her that when you want sex, you don't care if she enjoys it or not as long as you do. 

At this point, you will not be able to convince her that sex = love. Try to figure out what the sex = love means to you and figure out how to show it. Getting angry when she does not always want to have sex when you want it seems inconsistent with caring and love. Viewing sex as a surrogate for power in the relationship has nothing to do with love. 

Loving who she is and caring about how she feels will go a long way towards making her feel loved.


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## I Don't Know

*Deidre* said:


> There needs to be a healthy compromise. But, I have to ask...would you like to have more frequency of sex with an unwilling partner? I mean, would that really arouse you all that much? So, yea...she may compromise sometimes, but will she just be laying there, bored...counting the seconds until it's over. Or minutes. lol You know what I mean.


No, I wouldn't want that at all. If she won't enjoy it, I wouldn't want to do it.

I'm pretty sure this was 90% a case of "you wanted other guys before me, why don't you want me like you wanted them." If I didn't have that little nagging in my head, this probably wouldn't have been a big issue. It's all in my head and I know it, but it magnifies the sting of being rejected. And in that moment it can be hard to keep perspective of that. 

Through this whole fight she was telling me that our relationship is more than just sex, and it is. But what I was hearing was "That part of me isn't for you, it was for ___________."  And I want all the other stuff. Quality time, non sexual touch, conversations, etc. It's all important to me. But I also want to be the guy who drives her crazy with lust.


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## I Don't Know

@Catherine602, it was more about wanting to be wanted than about having sex. I did a poor job of communicating that to her and apparently here too. But it was never about not getting to get off.


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## Catherine602

I Don't Know said:


> @Catherine602, it was more about wanting to be wanted than about having sex. I did a poor job of communicating that to her and apparently here too. But it was never about not getting to get off.


I understand. My post was meant to reveal to you how she may interpret what you say vs what you do. Not that you do or say these things. I thought it would help you going forward. 

Feels good to be wanted, your wife has that in abundance from you. It would be nice if she could understand that you need to feel that from her too. If you stopped pursuing her, I'll bet she would feel unattractive. When she does not welcome you sexually, you feel unloved. Can you explain to her in those terms? 

Rather than her feeling that she is being used for your sexual gratification, she may realize that you are expressing your love for and attraction to her. 

The best thing to do is to control your reactions so you convey what you feel and not confirm her biases.


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## I Don't Know

Catherine602 said:


> I understand. My post was meant to reveal to you how she may interpret what you say vs what you do. Not that you do or say these things. I thought it would help you going forward.
> 
> Feels good to be wanted, your wife has that in abundance from you. It would be nice if she could understand that you need to feel that from her too. If you stopped pursuing her, I'll bet she would feel unattractive. *When she does not welcome you sexually, you feel unloved. Can you explain to her in those terms? *
> 
> Rather than her feeling that she is being used for your sexual gratification, she may realize that you are expressing your love for and attraction to her.
> 
> The best thing to do is to control your reactions so you convey what you feel and not confirm her biases.


I see. Yes, I think that's exactly how she was interpreting it. 

*(Bolded)* I think that's a very good way to phrase it. Thank you for the idea.


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## Catherine602

I Don't Know said:


> No, I wouldn't want that at all. If she won't enjoy it, I wouldn't want to do it.
> 
> I'm pretty sure this was 90% a case of "you wanted other guys before me, why don't you want me like you wanted them." If I didn't have that little nagging in my head, this probably wouldn't have been a big issue. It's all in my head and I know it, but it magnifies the sting of being rejected. And in that moment it can be hard to keep perspective of that.
> 
> Through this whole fight she was telling me that our relationship is more than just sex, and it is. But what I was hearing was "That part of me isn't for you, it was for ___________." And I want all the other stuff. Quality time, non sexual touch, conversations, etc. It's all important to me. But I also want to be the guy who drives her crazy with lust.


BTW @I Don't Know The things your wife is saying is so common that it seems as if there is a playbook written for confused wives. 

Since it's so frequent and consistent, there must be a somewhat common source for these beliefs. It could be that we are all too busy.

When your wife says that there is more to the relationship than sex, she may be speaking in relative terms. Lets say you don't spend much time together in conversations, or shared fun activities. 

It may appear that the time you spend talking about sexual dissatisfaction and actually having sex is more than the time you spend in non-sexual activity as a couple. 

One thing we have done in our home is avoid centering family life around our 2 children. I am astonished when I see the amount of time parents devote to their children with all kinds of activities. 

This is so common that I wonder if it may be one area that you can decrease time spent. It will not hurt the children to have a simpler life. 

OP take a look at the time allocation in your family. Are there areas that you can free up time to spend together? Looking at TV does not count.


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