# Do I let him go



## hopeful101 (Nov 6, 2013)

I've been married a long time. I'm continually told that I don't show enough affection. I don't. I have tried over the years to change and I do for awhile, but get out of the habit. It's not that I don't want to change, but it's just not me. I realize it's not working, and realize it's important to my husband, so I'm trying to be different. We've been having significant fights over the years. It's at the point where I think he wants to leave me. I'm now being told that it has to come from me, not from his request. His side is that if I loved him I would be openly affectionate. I'm not a hugger. I'm not a touchy feely person. I can't make him believe that I do love him even though I don't physically show it as he wants. I'm also getting a bit resentful that I can't be accepted for the way I am. I think it's okay to remind me when I start slipping back, but he disagrees. He doesn't feel he should have to remind me or ask for this. I feel like I'm being set up to fail. Do I just let go. I do love him. I think he loves me.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

hopeful101 said:


> I've been married a long time. I'm continually told that I don't show enough affection. I don't. I have tried over the years to change and I do for awhile, but get out of the habit. It's not that I don't want to change, but it's just not me. I realize it's not working, and realize it's important to my husband, so I'm trying to be different. We've been having significant fights over the years. It's at the point where I think he wants to leave me. I'm now being told that it has to come from me, not from his request. His side is that if I loved him I would be openly affectionate. I'm not a hugger. I'm not a touchy feely person. I can't make him believe that I do love him even though I don't physically show it as he wants. I'm also getting a bit resentful that I can't be accepted for the way I am. I think it's okay to remind me when I start slipping back, but he disagrees. He doesn't feel he should have to remind me or ask for this. I feel like I'm being set up to fail. Do I just let go. I do love him. I think he loves me.


You can't blame him for your failing to meet his needs
If he has told you and asked repeatedly for years then you need to try harder
He is not setting you up. You ask if he should just accept who you are, yet you can't accept who he is 
You need to see that. If you love him then coming out of your comfort zone and doing what he is asking should be something you do willingly
Set an alarm on your watch or phone if it helps but let that alarm remind you so he does not have to
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopeful101 (Nov 6, 2013)

I do appreciate the wake up call with your response. I feel that I maybe didn't elaborate enough. I have already changed considerably over the years already coming out of my comfort zone in various areas, behavior, dress, weight, not allowed to associate with certain people, becoming an extrovert because I'm extremely introverted. I'm far more affectionate than I was. My efforts appear to go unnoticed. Also, our most recent discussion about this came a few months ago, right after running in to someone he knew from college and she ran up and threw her arms around him, hugged him, kissed him (on the cheek,) but clearly excited to see him. As she walked off, he asked why I don't do that. I probably would if I hadn't seen him in over 10 years. Didn't seem like a fair comparison. Now, that's where the bar is set. My frustration comes from the bar continuing to be moved up, almost out of reach.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

hopeful101 said:


> I do appreciate the wake up call with your response. I feel that I maybe didn't elaborate enough. I have already changed considerably over the years already coming out of my comfort zone in various areas, behavior, dress, weight, not allowed to associate with certain people, becoming an extrovert because I'm extremely introverted. I'm far more affectionate than I was. My efforts appear to go unnoticed. Also, our most recent discussion about this came a few months ago, right after running in to someone he knew from college and she ran up and threw her arms around him, hugged him, kissed him (on the cheek,) but clearly excited to see him. As she walked off, he asked why I don't do that. I probably would if I hadn't seen him in over 10 years. Didn't seem like a fair comparison. Now, that's where the bar is set. My frustration comes from the bar continuing to be moved up, almost out of reach.


I love coming home from work. My daughter always yells Daddies home! My wife comes out if where ever she is and wants a hello kiss, a hug, and this always makes me feel missed and wanted
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

nogutsnoglory said:


> I love coming home from work. My daughter always yells Daddies home! My wife comes out if where ever she is and wants a hello kiss, a hug, and this always makes me feel missed and wanted
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your post also starts by telling how you are not affectionate enough, and that you try to change but it never lasts, now you tell us you have changed so much as a response to my suggestions
Can't be both. So did you change for him and it stuck or not ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopeful101 (Nov 6, 2013)

Many changes have stuck. I keep trying the affection, but no, that goes back and forth. Lately, not so great. Do you greet your wife the same way though? I'm guessing so, that it's mutual. My situation isn't that he greets me with overflowing affection and I do not do this for him. In fact in our entire relationship, even in good times where we are in sync, other people, especially women are treated with far more enthusiasm than I am.


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## Gonnabealright (Oct 24, 2013)

You and I are very simular. I am not a touchy person either. My stbxw expected me to do things (touching theme acts) for her without asking and that always got me into trouble by not giving her what she wanted or needed. I was told by councilor that she needed to tell me what she needed, if she didn't tell me she needed anything, I would act normal. I think she expected me to read her mind. I would rub her back when she asked, cuddle when she was near but it was a never an automatic thing with me either. 
My point is that he is geared differently then you and I would almost bet he's not telling you what exactly he wants and you left to guess at what he wants you to do. You can't read his mind and its not natural for you to do that. So he has you in a awkward position. There is no way you know what he wants unless he tells you. 
If he has told you and you stopped doing it then its fixable by doing it again. You may have forgot, I always did and she would get mad at me because she would have to remind me. I always had a hard time asking her again again what she wanted me to do because I knew it made her upset. 
If he is raising the bar and not telling you prior to it then he needs to communicate that with you.
You two need to get into some councilling so that you can find a way to communicate. I'll bet you will find a way to do the things that make him happy and he will find a way to communicate to you so you get what you need. There are several books on this out there.


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## hopeful101 (Nov 6, 2013)

Well, a lot has happened since this post. It turns out that he's been having an affair for the last 4 months. As I get more rumors being relayed to me, I'm told this isn't the first time. I'm devastated. It's not that I am going to say I've been perfect in our marriage at all, but not only is the affair the ultimate slap in the face, but to have been made to believe our problems are all my fault while he's seeing someone else is just beyond painful.


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## Clay2013 (Oct 30, 2013)

I am so sorry to hear this. Have you talked to him about it? Is he going to stop seeing this other person? 

Do you have any friends or family to be with you? 

Clay


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## hopeful101 (Nov 6, 2013)

yes, we've talked and talked. I have lots of proof and he still denies it all. They are "just friends." At this point I have to tell him I want out and I'm terrified of that conversation. I want to believe him even though I know I'm right and he is not. 

Yes, I have a lot of support, including HIS family.


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## hopeful101 (Nov 6, 2013)

And no, he wont' stop talking to her. He said there is no reason to stop communicating with her since they are only friends.

LIE, LIE, LIE.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

You now know the truth. It's not you. It's him. So start putting your plan together -- whatever that might happen to be. You have a life to think about.


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## Fordsvt (Dec 24, 2010)

Openminded said:


> You now know the truth. It's not you. It's him. So start putting your plan together -- whatever that might happen to be. You have a life to think about.


Wow so sorry to hear that. An affair is terrible and hard to come back from. You are in a hard place-stay strong...


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## EuropeanWifey (May 10, 2013)

hopeful101, I am very sorry about the devastating news. My husband told me throughout our dating and whenever it came up in the conversation that he would never forgive cheating and if this ever happened, it would be the end. He had been cheated on before and knows he would never be able to trust the person who betrayed him like that. It is indeed up to you now. Talking about wanting out is never easy... May you have all the strength and support you need to get through this in as healthy way as possible.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Just to clarify, and not that one is better than the other or vice versa, but is it a PA or an EA? If it's an EA, his responses make a bit more sense as it is very common for a spouse to be involved with an EA and not be able or willing to recognize that they have crossed a line, often because they choose to see sex as being the only line that matters. Effectively they are lying to themselves and don't know it.

What kind of evidence have you found?


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Hopeful101: I wanted to share my experience, and I'm earnestly interested in your reply as your situation sounds very similar to that of my wife and I. I am a very touchy-feely type of person. For me, to love and be loved means to touch very affectionately a lot. That doesn't mean just sexually as it can be argued that the vast majority of men need sex. I mean small touches, like at least a quick cuddle before falling asleep, a hug/kiss every day before work/after work/before bed, touching each others hips when walking past each other in a hallway, touching his shoulder or arms around his mid section for a moment when you walk into a room and come up from behind him, holding hands while walking together, etc. Little things! Of course, sex is a big part of it as well.

To me, those types of things are absolutely necessary in order for me to feel loved/respected, and touch is the same way I show love. If your husband is similar, then you can tell he loves you when he tries to do those sorts of things. You obviously feel/interpret love in a very different way, but it doesn't mean that he doesn't love you. For my wife, her "love language" was words of affirmation and quality time. For her, she wanted to hear that I appreciate her, that I love her, that I think she is beautiful/talented/kind/etc. often. If I appreciated something she had done like making a fantastic spaghetti or beautiful holiday wreath for our front door, she wanted to hear me compliment her on her amazing cooking or creative talent, etc. It makes her feel loved and appreciated when she hears those things, and she shows love the same way.

For me, I had to train myself to do this because being verbal in that way does not come naturally at all. I don't feel that need to verbalize my thoughts/emotions like that. I don't really "get it". At the same time however, she really isn't asking for much when I stopped and thought about it. So each day I make sure to come up with at least two thoughtful compliments, expressions of appreciation or acknowledgements of a positive act. Typically in the morning I will have one written on a small note card that I might leave for her where she will see it. Then I try to have verbal one ready for her when I get home from work, so I usually think about it on my commute home. Then during the evening I can often come up with another during the course of dinner, leisure time, preparing for bed, etc. Naturally she knows that this doesn't come naturally for me and that I basically have to force it, but that actually makes it mean that much MORE to her as a result. Knowing that I go out of my way each day to try to ensure that she feels loved in her unique way.

So for you in your case, I suspect that your husband may be similar to me, very touch oriented. So I would ask you why you can't look upon his requests for what they are, little things that he needs in order to feel loved/respected? You said in your post that you do love him, so why can't you give a little bit of effort each day to show him that love and respect (remember respect is more important for us guys) in a way that he can accept? Hold hands with him when walking, touch his hip or shoulder when you pass in the hallway or when entering the room and finding him there. Give him a hug/kiss every morning before leaving for work, when getting home from work and before bed, offering him a foot/shoulder/back rub every now and then? If you do love him, can you just start an easy habit of committing to a few non-sexual touches each day? Within only a few days I bet you'll see a whole new side of him as he begins to feel loved/respected/appreciated.

Sexually speaking might be a bit more challenging, but I would ask that you commit to that as well. I don't think you mentioned how often it is happening right now, but I'm guessing it's less than once a week. In that event, try to commit to some form of sexual activity at least once a week. Plan it out. Have fun with it. If he is used to being the one that always has to initiate, then he'll let you do anything you like as long as you are the one starting it. Do whatever you feel comfortable with, and if you can, feel free to be creative and spontaneous, even if you are secretly planning it.

So really, just one or two minutes a day and maybe 20 minutes once a week would likely be all it takes to end this problem (on his side) completely in very short order. As with my wife, I realized that what she was really asking for was not a big deal, nor did changing my habits just a bit involve much sacrifice on my part. I think in any given week, you could spend an average of 5 minutes a day and keep him incredibly happy and satisfied.


Lastly, I would suggest that you read "The Five Love Languages" as a really good starter resource. I liked "Love and Respect" a lot as well. My question would be what is your love language, or the means by which you primarily feel and offer love? It would be good for him to know that as well, and of course for him to adapt his own habits accordingly for your sake too. I hope this helps!


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Op, I'm sorry you're here. I'm sorry your h made you feel so bad about yourself. This is just the beginning of a hard road ahead. Try to think your action through while you are going through them. Very hard to do, but oh, 2+ years out, looking back, I wish I handle things so differently. One piece of advise I failed to heel, "There is a lot of power in silence."

~sammy


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## hopeful101 (Nov 6, 2013)

So, yes, I have really tried and immediately after he told me how I felt I did what the first responder said - set an alarm, whatever it takes. It was a good two weeks or so I thought. I was feeling better. I was encouraged then I clued in to some problems. I don't know for certain EA or PA. I'm pretty certain it's moved to physical, but I can't say. I just know for sure that there are many, many texts and calls all day long, every day. He's dressing nicer. He's often really happy when he gets home. That is actually unusual, he's typically grumpy and moody. I've seen a few texts that are definitely not the things friends say to one another. I know of a lot of unaccounted time. I'm told he's at work when I find out later he left work early and still came home fairly late. 

I've confronted him and he denies that there is anything wrong. Friends apparently do tell one another they miss each other and can't wait to see them the next day. Sign their texts with XOXOXOXO. I don't buy it. I told him I don't like it and it's not something I will put up with. I also can't try to be the wife he wants when I know this is going on. 

My family knows and wants me to break it off. I am really struggling to make that decision. I don't want to lose our family, our extended families, and I do still love him. I want to hate him right now, but I don't.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Hopeful, 

Hate to break it to you, he is knee deep into an affair. His cellular has become part of his body... Everything you wrote above are huge, huge signs. It is written all over him. He might as well be carrying a sign around his neck. 

Now, the question, what do you do about it? How do you handle it? Unfortuntaly, you are not going to get the support from some of the seasoned "strong men" on this forum, as they tend to unfortunatly read the men's stories more so. 

I'm not one of the best to advise you, as I made soooo many mistakes when I first found out 2.5 years ago, hopefully others will jump on and help support you. 

I have been in a long term marriage, and only now do I see that I really did have options that I didnt realize that was there for me all along. This is a tough road your starting. 

We are just entering mc after this much time apart, and I feel like a newbie in so many ways, but at the same time, with so much time standing still in limbo, it has done it's own damage too. So, dont follow that path, as it is a terrible path to follow. 

~ sammy


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You don't have to make a decision right now. But the first thing you have to do is stop the affair. Tell his important people what he's doing. See if she's married and tell her husband and parents; if she isn't, just tell her parents. Make the affair so unpleasant that he has to make a choice.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Tell him that you realize he is much happier with her and because you love him are letting him go. Letting him go does not mean being nice about the affair. Exposé it.

Put the 180 into effect.

If he loves you and says he wants to save your marriage, he must write an NAC letter that you send.

Put a VAR in his car. Weightlifter has written the instructions many times on TAM.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Yep, it's time to expose. Anything you've got. To her family (husband, parents, kids, whoever) and maybe even the employer. Maybe her church/pastor? You might even try finding her on facebook, friend requesting her (why wouldn't she accept if she is really just a friend?) and then immediately posting on her wall all of the evidence you have found. Even if she deletes it reasonably quickly, I bet a lot of her friends/family will see it.

Otherwise listen to LongWalk above, he always has great advice.


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## Fordsvt (Dec 24, 2010)

Great advice all around. You need all the facts to make a decision. 
Be smart and don't over react. It just pushes them more under ground.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopeful101 (Nov 6, 2013)

I have exposed. I talked to her husband. He told me that I just have to let it go and trust that they are not being unfaithful. Most of our friends and family know at this point. A close friend just shared with me he spoke with her. Basically blamed everything on me, I don't love him and he's sacrificed a lot to stay. 

From all the signs and you are all right - it's an affair. While I'm sure it's just emotional, it's still an affair and he won't stop it. He won't do couples counseling and continues to tell me that I am the one who needs to make changes. I know at this point I should leave, but I just can't seem to make myself do it. 

Last time we talked and I said that I don't think we can do anything else but separate he looked crushed, teared up, grabbed me and held me. He makes me feel like he wants us. Then, he ends up talking to her. I also found out he only agreed to counseling for himself because a friend strongly suggested it. That tells me that he doesn't value me as much as he does his friends. One more sign. I am so confused and upset. I'm struggling to keep it together at home and at work. I just want to be alone. I'm not being good for my kids and then I feel guilty for that too. 

I really wish he'd just tell me the truth which is what I feel, that he doesn't want me anymore and wants a divorce. He is completely giving mixed signals and I wonder if he's just hoping I'll say I want a divorce so he has the easy out.


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## Fordsvt (Dec 24, 2010)

I think you need to at least separate and force his hand. He doesn't see anything you say as a threat. So he continues as your enabling this. You need to show him you can live without him. 
Like longwalk says it's 180 time. It works believe me. It is very powerful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Hopeful, I thought I'd offer a few thoughts for a different perspective, having been in a similar position as him. I once was neck deep in an EA and really truly had no idea. I know that in many (most?) cases, an EA is just the precursor to a PA, but not always. In my case, it was truly just an EA, no chance for a PA. I didn't find her desirable/attractive in that way at all, we were just friends that crossed way too many lines. (Again, none of them physical or romantic, just spending too much time together, being way too comfortable around each other, discussing personal things and topics that are very inappropriate outside of a marriage, etc.)

For me, my wife didn't even know what to call it, just that my friendship with this woman (who was a coworker who's desk was directly next to mine, meaning we chatted throughout the day and usually had lunch together) made her extremely uncomfortable. Eventually when she learned about an EA, she boldly accused me and I denied it up and down. Again I thought an Affair involved sex, and an "Emotional Affair" must mean an affair without sex, basically professing love for each other, wanting to be together all the time, missing each other, etc. None of that was true with me and the female friend, but merely the fact that I would often go to her to discuss topics and questions that should have been with my wife, meant that it was inappropriate. I just didn't understand or agree with it at the time.

So from his perspective, assuming that he isn't in love with her or that there is a PA involved, I could understand why he might not feel like he is doing anything wrong at all. He might see her as an outlet, the "go to" person who understands him well that he can bounce thoughts and ideas off of. Then there is also the fact that, if he feels that way, it would be VERY easy for you to come off looking controlling or trying to tell him who he can and cannot be friends with. It can easily become something that he feels like he has to stand up for himself over, sort of like a prideful thing. Like "I'll be damned if I let my wife tell me who I can or can't be friends with."

So what I'm getting at... is if this isn't a PA, then to him he really is telling you the truth and he is not sending mixed signals at all. I think the issue is a question of whether his friendship with the female co-worker is inappropriate or not. He might even feel like he is standing up to you by not agreeing to end a friendship just because you say so, and could certainly make him feel like you are the one who needs to make changes. (I know that is how I often felt)

As for him agreeing to therapy only after another friend suggested it, wow, that is exactly how it happened for me. My wife had been complaining of my behavior/treatment of her for a while but I could never see anything wrong with how I was. Then one day out of the blue one of my good friends (whom my wife was fine with, he was a good guy) decided told me off one day. He had come over to play games as he always did on Fridays and when walking through the house, I motioned to our kitchen table which was really messy and said something like, "Sorry the place is such a mess, [My wife] said she would clean this up last week but hasn't gotten around to it." He stopped me right there and asked me why I am always "throwing [my wife] under the bus?" meaning why did I always find excuses to let him or others know that she had failed in something or was deficient in some way. My friend didn't ask me about the mess, he didn't point it out to me, didn't make a face about it, nothing, I just felt some need to go out of my way to point out that it wasn't MY mess, it was hers. He told me that I didn't need to do that, it's disrespectful to her, that I should be defending her at every opportunity, not pissing on her reputation in order to make me look better.

He shared other examples and other issues he had noticed. It was a wake-up call for me. For starters, he was able to speak to me as a guy, in my own language. That means directly and specifically. No hinting, dancing around an issue, alluding to something, trying to sugar coat anything, strange body expressions, etc. So anytime my wife had tried to express that there was a problem, she didn't make any sense to me. Second, in my view at that time, she was trying to control and manipulate me, so trying to tell me that I had issues because of these problems that only she could see, came off to me as more attempts to control me. So it did take my friend bringing reality to my attention for me to wake up. Honestly I know my wife felt exactly the way you did, frustrated and feeling disrespected/unvalued by the fact that I didn't actually act to change anything until my good friend woke me up, and not when she was trying to do the same thing.

So anyways, I'm not trying to say that he's right or that he's not doing anything wrong, I just thought I might have some insight into why he feels or is acting the way he is, and how there could easily be a lot of misunderstanding going on.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Bottom line, he has to understand that him having another woman in his life with whom he confides is NOT a marriage you're comfortable with. And if he feels he can't be without her, then he will have to be without YOU.

It doesn't have to be an accusation, a threat, or a demand. It is a simple statement of what you will or won't accept in a marriage. He is free to make HIS choice, just like you are free to leave if he won't stop. Take the emotion out of it. Ask him to make a choice. And if he won't, then you will have to do it.


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## hopeful101 (Nov 6, 2013)

CDBAKER, 

Thank you. I think you are right on with this. I do think he truly thinks there is nothing wrong. He does the same thing to me that you were describing - throwing your wife under the bus. We had friends over the other night and he was complaining the house was a mess. The other man in the room looked at me and said your house is CLEAN, and I can't believe you do this with a full time job. 

I very much appreciate your response. He's been confronted by me and several friends. I am definitely feeling like I do need to do something drastic at this point, like have him move out. You changed just based on your friend's suggestion or was it the counseling that helped you?


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## hopeful101 (Nov 6, 2013)

CD BAker, 

Did you successfully work things out with your wife? Was she patient? I'm standing my ground with not accepting his EA and it's not working. He's just seeing me as a jealous nutcase.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

He throws you under the bus because he has made the transformation of admiring YOU, to admiring HER. Trust me, he would never criticize HER. At least not until the affair is over.


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## hopeful101 (Nov 6, 2013)

You are right. I confronted her and he got angry with me. He tried to tell me that she was helping by talking to him. I was furious. He then tried to make me feel badly by saying she had apologized for causing problems. If she was truly sorry, she'd stop calling and texting him as well, but she doesn't. I am just floored that he would have respect for a married woman who acts this way. He would not accept it from me and he's admitted this. I've asked him how he would feel and he agreed he would not stand for it, yet he doesn't stop.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

turnera said:


> Bottom line, he has to understand that him having another woman in his life with whom he confides is NOT a marriage you're comfortable with. And if he feels he can't be without her, then he will have to be without YOU.
> 
> It doesn't have to be an accusation, a threat, or a demand. It is a simple statement of what you will or won't accept in a marriage. He is free to make HIS choice, just like you are free to leave if he won't stop. Take the emotion out of it. Ask him to make a choice. And if he won't, then you will have to do it.


Yes, this is all exactly correct. Ultimately, whether he agrees with you that his relationship with her is inappropriate or not, the bottom line is that you can clearly and directly state that it is unacceptable to you. You can lay out your reasons, but ultimately you are free to have that position and the choice then goes to him regarding what he wants or is willing to do. I would make clear that this is NOT about control or telling him what he can or can't do, or who he can or cannot have as friends. It's not about her or the fact that she is a female, it's the fact that he has allowed the nature of their relationship to go further than is acceptable in your view.


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## hopeful101 (Nov 6, 2013)

I realize I didn't really read your first response well enough. After re-reading, I'm even more confused with my situation.

You are again totally right, you are him, I am your wife. I get no indication of appreciation at all aside from sex. I would appreciate conversation, signs of appreciation. He is touchy with me, but it's always more annoying, grabbing my butt, my breast, instead of say a nice hug or kiss hello. He will compliment other women, but never me. Yes, I need to do more in the way of touching, hugging, etc. I've been trying to do that more.

He equates sex as love and I understand this is how he measures love so I stopped saying no, ever, a long time ago. We actually are more like 3-4 times a week. He is now upset that I don't initiate. I don't initiate because I don't need to. Just coming to bed at the same time is all it takes. It's so often there is never a chance for me to be left wanting to initiate.

The problem right now is that we are in an impossible situation. He wants me to do all the things you are talking about, but I can't when I don't feel it's real. I feel he is actually "in love" with someone else. I'm in a constant state of stress feeling torn between wanting to run in to his arms and hit him at the same time. I suggested a date night and we went out and he got up to go to the bathroom a number of times. more than usual. I checked phone records the next day and he was texting her.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

hopeful101 said:


> CDBAKER,
> 
> Thank you. I think you are right on with this. I do think he truly thinks there is nothing wrong. He does the same thing to me that you were describing - throwing your wife under the bus. We had friends over the other night and he was complaining the house was a mess. The other man in the room looked at me and said your house is CLEAN, and I can't believe you do this with a full time job.
> 
> I very much appreciate your response. He's been confronted by me and several friends. I am definitely feeling like I do need to do something drastic at this point, like have him move out. You changed just based on your friend's suggestion or was it the counseling that helped you?


The friend gave me the wake up call and allowed me to see a different perspective that I hadn't seen before. He laid out a case explaining that I actually cared very much how other people viewed me, so much so that I was willing to make her look bad or highlight her flaws in order to make me look better. I had an enormous ego and sense of entitlement and had no idea. That woke me up enough to explore it further. I think we were either already in MC at that time or just about to start it, but the wake up call enabled me to be receptive to the things that my wife and the MC said during our sessions. It was really a huge turning point for me.

In addition to discovering the damage that my ego was doing, I also found out that I never really listened to her correctly. Oh I would hear her, and process the things she'd say to me, but if I disagreed with what she was saying I would very logically try to debate her position and make a case that she was wrong and I was right. She might tell me how she was feeling unloved, unvalued, like I valued this other woman more than her, and I would make a case for why those things are untrue, why I do love her and value her more than anyone else, etc. Seriously, I tried to basically explain why her FEELINGS were wrong, as if a feeling can possibly be wrong. What I learned (mostly from this friend, like I said he was a good guy) is that feelings can be neither right or wrong, they just are, and we just have to accept them. 

So she might say, "I feel like you don't love me" but what I was hearing was, "You don't love me." I can disagree and make a case against the latter, but not what she actually said. So when I would try to convince her that her feelings were wrong, she perceived that as me not really listening to her, or I was listening and I didn't care. I could suddenly completely understand where she was coming from.

As for the EA, this friend also helped me with that too. He was good friends with her too, actually the three of us were all great friends. But he asked me if I thought my wife was usually a controlling type. He asked me about the kinds of things the other woman and I talked about or did together. Ultimately he agreed with me that I hadn't really crossed any major lines and that it was just a friendship, but that we had crossed a few smaller lines of inappropriate conversation and actively allowing my wife to feel less important than the other woman. So he saw it as sort of an unfortunate situation, that while the friendship with the other woman wasn't really a threat to my marriage, I had also done a disservice to my wife in going to the other woman instead of my wife for certain conversations and did ultimately leave her feeling less important to me than the other woman. He advised that at the very least I dramatically scale back my friendship with the other woman, if not end it altogether. It would be different if my wife was a genuine control freak, if this friendship was only the latest in a long line of friendships that she had insisted on ending, but that wasn't the case here.


Sooo back to your question... the friend waking me up was the turning point. That short series of conversations with him enabled me to be receptive to the things my wife and the MC were saying. Not long after I really crashed under the weight of the realizations I was having, at how poor of a husband I had actually been and how hard it all was on her. I thought I was doing all the right things a man should do, providing for her, doing nice gestures for her, buying her things she wanted, attending functions and other events she wanted me to go with her on, reminding her that she was beautiful and that I loved her, etc. etc. I have never laid a finger on her in anger, never have called her a vulgar name, never walked out on her, never cheated on her, never touched drugs, never gambled, and only drank socially once in a blue moon. I didnt' realize that a guy could do all of those things right and could still blow the "smaller details" and ruin everything.


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## hopeful101 (Nov 6, 2013)

Wow, it is so relateable to us. My husband always misinterprets what I say. He'll tell me I said something else. Then, when I try to explain how I am feeling he will actually tell me that I am wrong. 

Hopefully he can get a wake up call soon as well. I'm not so sure I can wait much longer for him to come to the realization on his own.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

hopeful101 said:


> I realize I didn't really read your first response well enough. After re-reading, I'm even more confused with my situation.
> 
> You are again totally right, you are him, I am your wife. I get no indication of appreciation at all aside from sex. I would appreciate conversation, signs of appreciation. He is touchy with me, but it's always more annoying, grabbing my butt, my breast, instead of say a nice hug or kiss hello. He will compliment other women, but never me. Yes, I need to do more in the way of touching, hugging, etc. I've been trying to do that more.
> 
> ...


Sorry I know I keep jabbering on and on here...

If it helps any, I would actually bet that he really does love you and does NOT love her. Obviously I could be totally wrong here, but I just get that vibe from your descriptions, for many reasons, but I really think that he does actually love you. I also agree that he is just to addicted to this friendship and it needs to either end or be dramatically reigned in.

One approach you might try is just explaining that the way he acts around her, is so incredibly defensive of their friendship, spends so much time with her and communicating with her (especially outside of work) leaves you feeling like she is more important to him than you are. You are uncomfortable with him speaking about your marriage with her, as that is inappropriate with a member of the opposite sex. You feel disrespected and unimportant when he takes breaks from you to communicate with her so frequently. Leaving a date with your wife several times to text someone, regardless of who they are, is just plane rude and disrespectful, and sends the message that that person is more important than you are in that moment. Most hurtful of all however is the fact that you have expressed all of this to him before, probably multiple times, and he continues to dismiss your concerns outright. It might be worth asking him straight if he thinks you are a controlling person, if you have ever asked him to give up a friendship like this, if you have ever made as big of a deal out of something like this before? Assuming that you have not, that might help drive home the point that this isn't a control issue.


And you made a very good point. You recognize that perhaps you haven't been showing him love in the way he recognizes it and you have been trying and would be willing to try harder, but with this mess going on right now, it's nearly impossible to do so. Not doing so makes him feel even more like you don't care or have given up, which isn't true, but at this point your unable to prove it.

Just to point it out, it sounds like his love language is physical touch. (If you haven't read "The Five Love Languages", I HIGHLY recommend it!) For him, love is expressed via physical touches of any kind. For those who aren't familiar with the concept of people showing/receiving love in different ways, they might feel like their way is the only way. Like, "If you love me, you will want to touch me, cuddle with me, sit close to me and yes, have sex with me." That's it, that is how love is shown, period. Some of the things you described for yourself make it sound like your love language might be words of affirmation (or acts of service or gifts maybe...). For folks who give/receive love via words of affirmation, they might feel that love means telling her that he loves her every day, or that she looks beautiful today, or that the dinner she made was amazing and it's one of his favorite dishes, or that she did a great job with the holiday decorations or is a very talented artist, etc. 

If he is a physical touch person, then all of that stuff might not mean much of anything to him. That doesn't mean that he doesn't love you, it would just mean that he doesn't feel a natural need to express those things regularly as a show of love. What the author of the book described that illustrates this really well is a couple in his counseling office each saying that they feel like the other doesn't really love him/her, and when asked to give examples, they clearly describe one, maybe two love languages and they are always different. That's basically what I just read in your post. He is frustrated that you don't initiate, that you don't touch him as much as he'd like, that you don't want a hug/kiss hello or goodbye, etc. To him, he feels like you don't love or respect him, and that even if you actually do, then you don't love/respect him enough to do more of these things for him. It sounds like you feel the same way. You wish he'd more actively show you or say to you that you are appreciated, or the things you do for him are appreciated. You might want more quality time with him or you might like to hear more often that he loves you, thinks you are wonderful at this or that, that you are valued by him above all, etc.

I'm not saying the love languages concept has solved relationships forever, I'm saying it's just one very very simple concept that can be employed to make an enormous difference. One other thing you said stood out to me, that maybe you don't initiate physical touches (sexual or otherwise) because you don't feel a need to. Part of the concept is that once you know how your spouse feels love, you sort of have to train yourself to do those things every day. Most of the time that should actually be really easy.

(Sorry I know I keep talking here...) My own personal example is that I am a physical touch person but my wife is a words of affirmation type. That style just does not come naturally at all to me, nor does it mean a whole lot when she tried to show me love in that way, I just didn't interpret it as love because that's not what love is to me. So for me, I implemented one small change to my daily routine. Every single day I would take a moment to come up with two "words of affirmation" for her. Usually I'd think of one in the morning while getting ready for work and then one during my commute on the ride home. Then I'd take a moment to tell her before I left for work and after dinner. It might be a compliment of how she looks that day, or on the dinner she made, or that I appreciated her doing the dishes that night because I was exhausted, or that I'm really proud of her for something she did recently or that it means a lot to me that she irons my work shirts for me, etc. Often I would write one down on a note card instead and leave it for her somewhere where she would find it easily. Seriously, this would take me no more than a few minutes a day, but it made an enormous difference. Just imagine if, even for just two moments a day, you felt truly loved and appreciated by your spouse?

Let that sink in. Twice a day. That would just charge up her batteries faster than anything, her "love tank" that is. It's like I'd finally found the right charging cable that fit her. For me, I need a different charging cable, because any touch she gives me just brightens my mood/day immediately. Lord if she wanted to abuse it, she could get me to do absolutely anything if she asked me while rubbing my shoulders or during a hug.

With all of that said, before you can really effectively get into any of that, you've got to get through to him about this EA thing...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

hopeful101 said:


> Wow, it is so relateable to us. My husband always misinterprets what I say. He'll tell me I said something else. Then, when I try to explain how I am feeling he will actually tell me that I am wrong.


 What psychologists do in this situation is have both of you repeat back what you hear the other person saying. If it's incorrect, you say so and re-explain. Then you ask them to repeat it back to you again. And fix again if they still aren't hearing. It does wonders for getting people to actually HEAR what the other person says as well as to be able to FEEL what the other person is saying.



hopeful101 said:


> Hopefully he can get a wake up call soon as well. I'm not so sure I can wait much longer for him to come to the realization on his own.


Who do you expect him to get this wakeup call from? Have you asked another male in his life to do this?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Now, HE has told you something valuable, and you flat out dismissed it. He wants you to initiate. To explain this, men fantasize about wild women. They grow up fantasizing about the woman taking control and being a beast in bed. IT IS WHAT THEY WANT.

Now, you say you never say no. That's great. But men's #1 EN is usually sex, but their #2 EN is usually admiration. And that ties in to the woman seeing the man as someone she wants to rape, basically. For you to say oh well, I'm not gonna do what HE wants - initiate - because we have sex all the time anyway. 

That is SO not the point. He wants you to be hot for him, to be so you can't wait to get him into bed. That is part of his EN for you to admire/desire/lust after him. And you're ignoring it.

Small wonder he's found another woman's shoulder to cry on, eh?


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## hopeful101 (Nov 6, 2013)

Right. I'm getting that loud and clear both from him and responders to my original post. I do hear you. 

Problem is, I'm willing to do the work. I don't think he is or at least isn't right now.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You can still do the things you know he needs from you.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

hopeful101 said:


> Right. I'm getting that loud and clear both from him and responders to my original post. I do hear you.
> 
> Problem is, I'm willing to do the work. I don't think he is or at least isn't right now.


Believe me I am not trying to criticize at all when I say this, but rather than being "willing" to do the work, you could try actually just doing it for a while and seeing if that makes a difference? It seems pretty common that a lot of spouses will be unhappy or dissatisfied with their partners commitment level or efforts, and therefore are unwilling to put in an effort themselves. Like, "If he's not going to try to meet my needs in this marriage, why should I try to meet his?!" which is an incredibly immature and selfish attitude. Obviously if both spouses feel that way, then the marriage is history.

Again I'm not saying that you are doing that here or anything, but if you are and you want to try something different, you could try committing full tilt and seeing what kind of difference that makes? It takes two to tango, but sometimes someone has to initiate the process to get it going.


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## hopeful101 (Nov 6, 2013)

Yes, I think we both feel that way. We are both stubborn people which doesn't help. I really only did this fully for the month after he told me what he wanted. When the extra relationship didn't even slow down at all I got angry and now don't feel like being nice. 

He still texts from the minute he gets up to before he goes to sleep. His phone is never out of his possession. I don't even know where he keeps it at night. He doesn't charge it at home anymore. That really makes me even more suspicious and thus more angry, resentful, unwilling to do my part.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I think you have every reason to be suspicious. I wouldn't be meeting his needs while that's going on.


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## Fordsvt (Dec 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> Bottom line, he has to understand that him having another woman in his life with whom he confides is NOT a marriage you're comfortable with. And if he feels he can't be without her, then he will have to be without YOU.
> 
> It doesn't have to be an accusation, a threat, or a demand. It is a simple statement of what you will or won't accept in a marriage. He is free to make HIS choice, just like you are free to leave if he won't stop. Take the emotion out of it. Ask him to make a choice. And if he won't, then you will have to do it.


Yes, and the fact he never let's his cell out of his sight? Doesn't charge it at home? You need to see what's on there and what's going on. You are 50% of the relationship. You are being held emotionally hostage and enabling it as well. Challenge him on this.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yeah, what you describe is most definitely an affair. So what you need to do now is fight the affair - assuming you want to stay married. Are you prepared?


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Yeah unfortunately I agree. To me it just seems like that behavior is just a little too far across the line for you to put yourself that far out there for him right now. I'm still inclined to think that it is just an EA of a friendly (not romantic) nature, but nevertheless he needs to recognize that his priorities are out of wack. I think if it were me, I'd sit him down for a conversation where you you start telling him the different ways where you feel you have maybe let him down or otherwise come up short. Explain that you want to do better and have every intention of doing so because you do love him, but only if he can come to grips with how his relationship with this woman is making you feel. (sort of ignoring the "Is it an EA/PA" issue for a moment) That his constant communication with her, talking about her, spending time with her, etc. makes you feel like she means a lot more to him than you do. You feel like much of that time and attention that he gives to her should be shared between the two of you and your children. Then when he ignores you and these feelings you keep trying to express to him and does nothing to change the nature of their relationship, it feels like confirmation of your fears, that you and your feelings aren't as important to him as this other woman is, that he's even willing to sacrifice his marriage for this woman. You love him, but you can't go on feeling that way for long. You could say again that you're willing to commit, you want to commit, to being a better spouse to him, but at this point he'll need to either end the non-working relationship with her or agree to marriage counseling where you can both get help processing through what is or is not reasonable together.

My thoughts behind that approach is that you have already done your best to show him that his relationship with the other woman is wrong, that it is an affair even if it is only emotional (which is in doubt of course), and you've gotten nowhere. It's a matter of definitions and you're probably not going to convince him that what he is doing is "wrong", but maybe you can express that what he is doing is hurting you deeply. That it's causing you to feel unloved, undesirable, disrespected, like he doesn't care about you, etc. See, saying "What you are doing is wrong." is a debatable statement, he can make a case to defend against that and argue that it's not wrong. Saying instead that "What you are doing is hurting me, making me feel..." is not a debatable statement. If he loves you, that should bother him a lot. 

From that he can choose one of about three options that I can see. He can of course tone down or end the relationship as you request. He could outright decline to make any change, directly accepting that his actions are hurting you to the point of considering divorce. Or he can take up your offer of marriage counseling where he might be hopeful that the marriage counselor might side with him and be able to help convince you that your concerns are unfounded. (which I think you've said has basically been his argument all along, that you have no reason to be concerned, that your fears and attempts to end the friendship are all crazy or unreasonable, right?)

It's sort of like presenting a nice reward up front with a condition, and then giving him a clear choice to accept, walk away, or involve a qualified 3rd party who can help. Regardless of the answer, you might be better off either way, yes?


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## hopeful101 (Nov 6, 2013)

Thank you.

I was prepared to fight the affair, at first. A month later without it even slowing down I'm not so sure. 

And yes, I need to give options I'm willing to live with and they would be as you said commit and repair our marriage or end it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Best way to end the affair is for him to see packing your bags until she is gone.


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## hopeful101 (Nov 6, 2013)

It's probably coming to that. The husband contacted me this weekend telling me my husband is ruining his marriage. I told him to talk to his wife. We did text a bit, but then he told my husband and read my husband the texts. I was pretty mad during the texting and had a few glasses of wine so said too much. Pretty ironic that I'm the one in the dog house now. Apparently this behavior is NOT appropriate. Who'd have guessed.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You're only in the dog house if YOU allow yourself to be. Why do you give a crap what any of those three people think about you? YOU are the one who didn't cheat.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

As I said, though, you want him hopping? Then kick him out. Or move out yourself. Nothing works better.


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## Fordsvt (Dec 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> Best way to end the affair is for him to see packing your bags until she is gone.


You need to do something drastic here. He is not getting it and your enabling him to see this OW. This is not acceptable at any level. He is throwing it in your face everyday. 

He needs the boot-now. Send him packing now


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Yeah, keep most of the stuff I posted about prior to this on hold. Your husband and the OW both know the heat is on them and they don't care. They are either delusional (very possible btw, remember, no one likes to accept that they are doing a horrible thing, that they're a bad person, so they go to great lengths to try to fool everyone, themselves especially, that they are doing nothing wrong) or they are lying through their teeth and hoping to buy time I suppose.

There is no better way to put an end to it and make him respect you than by kicking him out, or leaving yourself (on his time, make sure you lock down as much money as possible) if he refuses to leave. Finish exposing to anyone and everyone you've left out as well.


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## hopeful101 (Nov 6, 2013)

I asked him to leave. He's not been in the house for a week now. I have since found out his EA was stopping in at his work and even picking him up. One work associate actually thought he was single. I wish now I had followed my gut instinct and threw him out a few months ago when I first suspected.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You did the right thing. Your life will get better now, no matter which way this turns out.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Good move, I'm sure that must have been terribly hard, especially around the holidays.

How has he reacted? He left without a fight? Is he viewing the marriage as on the road to divorce? Has he been talking to you much or trying to? Have you heard from the OWH since then? Is the affair still happening? And where do you stand with it all right now? Waiting to see what happens, pursuing divorce?


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## hopeful101 (Nov 6, 2013)

We're in limbo a bit. He is gone, but it's been just a short time and we haven't spoken. I really think he's been pushing me to do what I did. I don't think he wanted to be the one to say he wanted a divorce. His first move after I asked him to leave was to go spend the afternoon with his EA. No, the OWH hasn't contacted me at all, which is just as well. 

I almost feel bad about feeling good, but I really feel relieved. I actually feel a bit excited about a new life. I am very independent anyway and kind of like being able to make all the decisions on my own for awhile. 

It's kind of funny thinking of my independent nature. Friends and family have always complimented me for my independence and do it on my own attitude. He's a workaholic so it's really ideal that I'm like this. I do think that's been part of the demise of our marriage. It seems like he needs the needy spouse to make him happy. I don't ask much from him and it seems that was perceived as I don't need him and don't want him.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My mom never got remarried. And never regretted it.


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## Fordsvt (Dec 24, 2010)

You are doing the right thing. Move on and don't look back. He has no respect for you. None. 
You can do way better than this trust me. Trust all that say it here. It will happen if you allow it too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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