# Just moved out - very lonely and angry



## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hello Everyone,

I am a first time poster. I have been married for 11 years now. Last week I moved out of our flat because I couldn't take it anymore. I now live in a rented apartment. It is very lonely. I miss my children (5 & 8).

4 years ago I moved the family to Hong Kong so the wife could be close to her ailing MIL. Her mother has been in and out of the hospital during the whole time. During the entire time we've been here, the entire life of the family revolves around the inlaws. My needs and feelings came last. Her MIL is a drama queen who craves attention. 

She went and bought a car we could not afford; not for me, or the family, but for her MIL. "She wants her MIL to be comfortable in the last days of her life."

Things took a turn for the worst starting this year. MIL was hospitalized again, and the wife started showing signs of stress; acting odd, tuning out, on facebook all the time, and she has found god. For a couple of months there, the wife virtually disappeared and I was left taking care of everything; the kids, her bills, everything. The wife was sleeping in the hospital with the MIL. 

Ever since we lived in NYC, and for the past five years I have been complaining that my needs were not met; and they came last. I have always put her first on my list. I even moved the family so she could be close to hers. She did not reciprocate. It was always the needs of the MIL, then the kids, then our friends, and then maybe me. 

I feel like she never listens to me. Whenever I was upset and silent, she would treat me transparently. She did not care if I slept on the couch, in a tent behind the estate, or in some dingy motel.

She went to a marriage therapist for several sessions but gave up and started going to church instead. She started putting the kids in church against my wishes. I am fervently anti-religious. 

I asked her to leave. She would not. 

After reflecting, moving to HK was a mistake. My in-laws destroyed my marriage. I should have kept them at arms length. 

The resentment and anger have built so much for the past five years I just could not take it anymore. I grew up in a violent dysfunctional family and I do not want the same for my children. I did not want to blow up so I moved out.

I desperately want to see my kids but I do not want to call because I am still incredibly angry with her and I don't want to put the kids in the middle of it. I am afraid she is filling the kids heads with BS about me and at the same time the church is brainwashing them. 

I feel like I have been walked all over and abused. I feel nothing but hate and anger towards my wife and the way she has treated me. I feel like a doormat. 

This is the hardest thing in my life. I wait by the phone/email all the time hoping for a call from the kids (or her). I need to get out and live life. Travel.

Forgive me if I am rambling. I need to vent because I have nobody to talk to. I need some words of encouragement (or discouragement).


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## I want the kids! (Apr 17, 2012)

This may be harsh but get over yourself. Call you kids. None of this is their fault. They still need a dad. If you want to leave your wife fine but anyone that dumps their kids is a loser in my book.

I'm driving myself crazy trying to keep my kids and you toss yours away. Wake up man!


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I live in a flat close by. I will never be far away from my children. I am not going to dump them. I am not going to be a deadbeat dad. I am still paying the mortage and bills. 

The thing is I am very mad and angry right now. I don't want to put the kids in the middle of it. All I want to say to them is "Mommy is mean to Daddy and doesn't give a **** about him." I don't think that is appropriate to say to a kid, so I am not going to say it. I need to calm down first.


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

You're right, that would be a terrible thing to say. Glad your head is on straight. Definitely cool down. Welcome to TAM -- this is a great group of people who really care about each other...for many, including me, TAM has been a lifeline each and every day.

That said, my first take is this: your childhood trauma may have prepared you to take the back seat in your marriage. Have you had trouble setting boundaries with your wife? Have you given all you can and felt like she has not given back? Do you feel like a doormat? You might be a Nice Guy, and/or Codependent. (I'll let the men around here explain.... Gentlemen?!)

The good thing right now is that you landed here -- a place where you will begin to find support. We will help you get some counseling, help you get through your days, help you figure out what the heck is going on when you are at a loss. The great thing? You don't have to stay unhappy. By addressing the issues that brought you to this place, you can begin to heal your past, grieve the end of the dream you once had for your family (whether you reconcile with your wife or not), and learn how to become a healthier man so that you will never end up in this kind of situation again.

Marriage didn't come with a manual...we are educating ourselves now, and let me tell you, knowledge is full of hope!


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

>> Have you had trouble setting boundaries with your wife? 
Yes and No. I have to fight to keep the boundaries I want only to lose repeatedly. She does not listen to me. I feel like I am talking to a brick wall. She goes and does things without discussing them with me. She enrolls the kids in all these extra-curricular activities without discussing with me. She buys a car without discussing with me. She buys a piano. etc. I tell her after the fact she needs to talk about this with me first but she ignores that.

>> Have you given all you can and felt like she has not given back? 
I have given her my life. I moved the family just so she could be with hers. I have given all I can.

>>Do you feel like a doormat? 
I feel like a doormat who has been **** on. Literally.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I justed my 5 year old to say hello. Sounds like life is moving on fine without me. The call did more harm to me than good. I feel even worse now.


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

Life is NOT moving on without you. Your kids need you and love you, and you know that. Your wife detached a long time ago, so really nothing has changed except for the fact that you finally stood up for yourself, you made a stand and said "I won't take this anymore."

You did nothing wrong by compromising for your family and giving to your wife through your marriage. But when she started to do things that irked you, when she stopped being your partner and started living independently while you started living co-dependently, things began to go downhill. 

I have learned that a relationship is a spectrum. At any given time, you are either moving closer together or further apart. I bet if you think about it, you can identify times when she started moving away from you, and you let her go -- probably because you were afraid that if you held her to your boundaries, she'd leave you. Am I close?


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

We are on different sides of the world and I need to go to sleep in a few minutes, but I wanted to leave you with something more positive before I do.

Please know that today, your only job is to breathe.

You will feel angry, sad, maybe depressed, guilty, ashamed, jealous, insecure. It's all normal.

Let yourself feel everything, as much as you would prefer not to. This is what must be done to begin to heal. It will hurt for a while, but over time it will get easier and lighter. The more you let yourself feel those awful feelings now, the more you cry it out now, the more you punch the couch and pace the room, the faster you will begin to feel better.

I hope that your day gets a little better. Sending hugs.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks for the advice. I am feeling horrible now. I will just focus on breathing. I will skip the team lunch today and do a run - I am an emotional wreck. I can't face anybody.

I have never been worried about her leaving me. I am just sick and tired of being treated like a doormat. My needs and feelings and constantly been ignored. I am 10th on the priority list, while she is #1 on mine. I just could not take her abuse anymore so I had to leave before I would do something I would regret. Now I am just dealing with the pain of the decision I made - very painful indeed. 

Need to keep it together. Thanks.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I had a very bad day.

I called my wife to ask for the marriage counselor. I got the cold shoulder. Sounds like she is done. Marriage counselor is unavailable until Monday.

I ended up closing the joint account to protect myself. I called her parents and told them were divorcing (in hopes they may talk sense to her).

I bought a house with her. I withdrew my entire retirement savings for that place and now I have nothing.

I had suicidal thoughts today but I think I may be over it. I tried to call the suicide hotline but it was busy.

I unfortunately sent a nasty gram saying I will be filing for divorce next week.

Sounds like I am past the point of reconciliation already. I have no choice but to stick it out and get over it.

Today was not a good day and I am very sad.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead,

What consequences does your wife face from "not listening to you"?


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Oh, boxhead. How awful. I'm glad you have made the move to divorce.

I do want to gently echo the comments above about your kids. Your kids only know that you are gone and you are not talking to them. They cannot interpret that as, "gee, he's got problems with mom and is probably too upset to call right now." They cannot. All they "know" is that their daddy doesn't love them anymore.

If you have the smarts and the strength to move from England to HK to New York, then you have the smarts and strength to have a cordial convo with your children in which you do not bash your wife. Will it be easy? No. Is it the right thing to do? Yes.

I wish you well -- don't do anything stupid, you're in a very bad place right now. It's okay, we've all been there, but you have to hold it together.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

conrad - she hasn't listened to me for years. she went and bought a car without talking to me. she put the children in church without talking to me. She signs the children up for all these extra-curricular activities without talking to me. She doesn't listen to my viewpoint and that hurts immensely.

iamaga - thanks for the input. I talked to both my son and daughter today. It was very difficult. I have to keep talking to the children but I am having a hard time keeping the anger aside. I can't even look at my soon-to-be x-wife now.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

What consequences does she experience from not listening to you? In other words, what have you done about it?


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Good for you, Box. And being angry means you are human. It's okay. It will come and go, but eventually it will pass.

Please keep posting, and know that people here understand and care.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Conrad - I try to talk about it and let her know my feelings. I feel like I talk to brick wall. I have the conversation over and over again only to feel like I am ignored. What I did about it was move out because she just didn't seem to care about my needs and feelings. I had to move out because I had no choice - she doesn't listen.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead201 said:


> Conrad - I try to talk about it and let her know my feelings. I feel like I talk to brick wall. I have the conversation over and over again only to feel like I am ignored. What I did about it was move out because she just didn't seem to care about my needs and feelings. I had to move out because I had no choice - she doesn't listen.


And you continue to financially support her and move halfway across the world because she asks?

What has she done that you've asked for?


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks for the input Conrad.

I moved halfway across the world for her. She didn't ask. I just knew she needed to be close to her family. I was hoping for balance, but instead, I got completely ignored. Bad decision on my part.

>> What has she done that you've asked for?
I tried really hard to think what she has done for me. I really can't think of anything. Seriously.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead201 said:


> Thanks for the input Conrad.
> 
> I moved halfway across the world for her. She didn't ask. I just knew she needed to be close to her family. I was hoping for balance, but instead, I got completely ignored. Bad decision on my part.
> 
> ...


Sounds like the relationship is working great for her.

She deprioritizes your needs and - in return - you kiss her ass.

You tell her things need to change. She ignores you. Nothing happens.

You tell her again. She ignores you. Nothing happens.

You see your role in this, I'm sure.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Not any more. I am done. I had to get out because I consider that abuse. A week later I am in a very painful place indeed. Terrible. Suicidal thoughts. This is the hardest thing I have ever been through.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead201 said:


> Not any more. I am done. I had to get out because I consider that abuse. A week later I am in a very painful place indeed. Terrible. Suicidal thoughts. This is the hardest thing I have ever been through.


Do you think you were trying to win her approval and "make her happy" by jumping through all those hoops?


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I am unclear on the question. I was constantly calling out asking to be heard only to be ignored. I did everything she asked. I was a good husband, father. I took care of the family. She did nothing in return. All I want is to be treated as #1.

One thread that rang true on this message board was "The key to a sixty year marriage is treat your wife above all else." I did that. I treated her above all else. I want a sixty year marriage. The downside is, she does not treat me above all else. She only treats me when it is convenient for her. All I want is for my spouse to treat me as #1.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Box, maybe you just married the wrong girl.

Here's the thing -- you are in crisis. There's plenty of time in the future for you to mull over what you might have done differently, but right now you are in survival mode. Being angry with her is fine. Blame it all on her in your mind if that helps you get through the weekend. You need to get to a more stable place before you can figure out what went wrong.

And do call that suicide hotline if you find that you start making plans. Think about your kids. You don't want them to grow up with that hanging over their heads, I know you don't.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead201 said:


> I am unclear on the question. I was constantly calling out asking to be heard only to be ignored. I did everything she asked. I was a good husband, father. I took care of the family. She did nothing in return. All I want is to be treated as #1.
> 
> One thread that rang true on this message board was "The key to a sixty year marriage is treat your wife above all else." I did that. I treated her above all else. I want a sixty year marriage. The downside is, she does not treat me above all else. She only treats me when it is convenient for her. All I want is for my spouse to treat me as #1.


You put her first.

She put you last.

Despite much bluster and anger, she continued to put you last.

Yet, you did nothing about it.

She continued to enjoy the benefits of everything you provided and returned nothing - yet you continued to provide it and STILL are providing it.

Own your part in this.

You taught her it was ok to do this.

(This will be hard to swallow, but it's true)


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## 52flower (Mar 4, 2011)

You are making the choice to define your boundaries. 
Whether she did not realize you had them, she now has the choice to respect you as an equal human being. You have the right to be a loving father to your children. You have a right to be treated fairly and with respect. It is a tough rode that too many of us have to deal with but be strong, you can do it. Do you let her take your dignity away. Do NOT let her win!


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Guys;

Thanks. Getting late here in HK. I had a very bad day. I appreciate the support. I do agree I own my part in this. I spoiled her - I told her as much one time. But I had to break it and move out. I cut her off as of today completely. This has been a terrible experience for me. I have been used and abused and I had to take a stand. It is very hard taking that stand.


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## Andy968 (Apr 29, 2012)

MyselfAgain said:


> That said, my first take is this: your childhood trauma may have prepared you to take the back seat in your marriage. Have you had trouble setting boundaries with your wife? Have you given all you can and felt like she has not given back? Do you feel like a doormat? You might be a Nice Guy, and/or Codependent. (I'll let the men around here explain...


Hey Boxhead... First I am sorry you are struggling through this. I walked this road for 18 months, and sometimes I didn't want to wake up. Holy cow I know how you feel. Everything sucks, everything hurts, nothing makes sense, and there are no answers. I just wanted the nightmare end. I understand where you are at. 

I encourage you to hang tough for your kids. They need to see you still love them and none of this is their fault. They need their dad and a relationship with you. They need to see you smile, interact, and show them you are still in the game. You can do it. 

MyselfAgain touched on this, and I also feel you should look into the Nice Guy / Co-dependent issues. Suggest you read a book called No More Mr. Nice Guy. I understand you may not be able to pick up a book right now, but you stated your childhood family was dysfunctional. Mine was as well and childhood family dysfunction negatively affects men and how they approach their families. I feel at some point a perspective on this issue may help you. It revealed how it caused me to negatively influence my marriage. This does not take away from your spouse' issues, but you can't control your wife. All you can do is control what you are doing, so you can move on in a positive manner. I am wishing you well.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead201 said:


> Hi Guys;
> 
> Thanks. Getting late here in HK. I had a very bad day. I appreciate the support. I do agree I own my part in this. I spoiled her - I told her as much one time. But I had to break it and move out. I cut her off as of today completely. This has been a terrible experience for me. I have been used and abused and I had to take a stand. It is very hard taking that stand.


Here is a list of Codependency symptoms on weak boundaries:



Weak Boundaries

Codependents frequently:
1. Say they won't tolerate certain behaviors from other people.
2. Gradually increase their tolerance until they can tolerate and do things they said they would never do.
3. Let others hurt them.
4. Keep letting others hurt them.
5. Wonder why they hurt so badly.
6. Complain, blame, and try to control while they continue to stand there.
7. Finally get angry.
8. Become totally intolerant.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks Guys (I am crying now).


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

*hugs*

Go to bed, honey. Tomorrow will look better. Not good, but better.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead201 said:


> Thanks Guys (I am crying now).


We administer tough love at times.

But, without looking at ourselves, we'll never grow.

I really feel bad for you.

I truly know just how you feel.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

Boxhead, I know how you feel. Completely. I know about giving and never receiving, and the pain, frustration and emptiness that accompanies it all. I was in a very one-sided relationship.

You sound like a "nice guy" and a co-dependent person. After doing some reading and hearing from TAM members, you'll know if this is true. And that moment, my friend, is *empowering*, and there is a light at the end of the tunnel. I promise you.

BH, I am seven months into my separation. In the beginning I did not know it was possible to feel such pain and sadness. It was crushing. Like you, I had suicidal thoughts and almost did myself in twice. Thankfully, I reached out to my doctor, family and friends. The months that followed were not easy by any means. The roller coaster ride of emotions was intense, crazy and draining. Yours might be too. Hold on. 

Week-by-week you will get better as you become part of your own solution. Part of this will be exercising, IC, keeping busy, remembering that thought fuels emotion, seeing friends, reading self-help books, venting and being challenged and support on this forum and focusing on your kids. It's what you *do* with the time that will help you heal and grow.

It took me three months to grieve my marriage. It was the most difficult period of my life. The following months were about learning to let go, and I only did so last night.

Believe people when they say it gets better. We've walked through hell and emerged on the other side.

In time, here is what you have to look forward to: more self-confidence, greater self-awareness and self-respect, the knowledge to make smarter decisions about your future, becoming a better dad to your kids... and very possibly, realizing your wife may not have been the partner for you, if it is not meant to be and reconciliation is not an option (it was not for me). You might feel very sad reading that last statement. At the beginning, that thought was absolutely devastating. I did not know how I would function or live. Now I have realized I was simply with the wrong person, and that it was ok. It really is ok.

I wish you the best in this journey. It will be a rough one, but one that will make your a stronger individual. You have no idea how good and strong you will feel in time. 

We are here for you. Vent when you need to, share your efforts, successes and failures (there will be some of each), and be ready to be challenged. 

You *will* get through this. Believe me... if I can, anyone can.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi All, update.

Was up all night Friday OCD'ing. Hit a very low point in my life; suicidal. I asked to see the kids on Saturday and I saw the kids. That felt better.

I talked to the wife for a bit and capitulated that I have been emotionally abusive towards her for the past couple of years. My emotional abuse was in the form of the silent treatment, accusations and nasty-grams. I outlined a plan. I told her that we will stay separated for the next six months while I go into therapy. I will pay half of the bills. I am going to delay the divorce. We'll see what happens in six months. The conversation was amicable.

The fact that I capitulated does not mean I am 100% in the wrong. She is just as guilty of abuse towards me as I am towards her. I think she made many decisions without my input. She does not value my input. I feel like she ignores my needs and feelings and that makes me very angry. I don't feel like the most important person in her life. I left because I felt ignored for so long and my anger was building to a point where I could have become violent. I have been hurt repeatedly by her behavoir. I am hurt by her behavoir towards me just as much as she is hurt by my behavoir towards her.

All in all, Saturday was a good day, but this morning is not. The emotional rollercoaster is back on. My gut tells me she is done because she could not deal with my emotional abuse. I am very worried she does not want to reconcile. I have to gather all of my strength to keep the anger and nasty-grams at bay.

I really hope to reconcile, but as "canguy66" put it, it may not be an option for her. That is very sad for me because my family is everything to me now and my goal is reconciliation. I want to fix my problems, but she needs to fix hers too. I want *BOTH* of us to fix our problems.

Two clarifications: 

1. On the car, I paid for only half of it ... and after they bought it. I gave my wife the money because I felt it is my duty to do so.

2. The MIL is on her death bed. This extra stress is causing all of these problems to get magnified.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Not a good day today. Emotional rollercoaster hardcore.

I get the impression she think's this whole situation is my fault. It is not. I left because I was ignored. I felt abused. I was emotionally abusive, but at the same time, she abused me by neglect and not treating like a spouse. She went and did things many times without talking to me. I felt ignored.

I think I have lost my wife. I don't think she wants to fix our problems. She went to marriage counseling and then quit and found god instead. I think marriage counseling is the only way. I don't think she wants to reconcile.

It appears our relationship is last on her priority list. I know the MIL is dying and she needs to attend to that first. But for some reason my feelings have been magnified through this whole "MIL in the hospital yet again" incident. Our lives have completely revolved on the MIL and the hospital for years now. It has been 4 years of neglect now. I have been *****ing and whining over and over again. My timing couldn't be worse, but I had to take care of myself and get out before I did something I would regret. I know I have to wait in line, but I have been waiting in line for years now.

I know I broke her heart by leaving. I know I broke her heart by being abusive. I just hope she understands that I love her very much and I am sorry for breaking her heart. I really wish she would see my point of view and understand that I did these things for a reason. I hope she finds it in her heart to accept me again.

I am feeling very bad right now. Sorry to keep whining.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

I'm glad you're sharing with us, BH. It's not whining at this point, it's venting. Let it out - it's good, healthy and necessary. 

I am sorry to hear about your wife's mother. Emotions are running high for everyone right now and it's not a productive or good time to work on reconciliation. 

I am concerned you are suicidal, and as I mentioned, I completely understand. Been there. I can tell you this - turning off your pain permanently means permanently hurting your family and friends. I'm sure you don't want that. I cannot tell you how better I feel seven months into my journey, and I am so happy I stuck around. 

Have your seen a doctor about this? Are you in IC? If not, see both ASAP. My doctor prescribed sleeping pills for me, which did a world of good. Helped me get some rest so I could face the next day's demons and roller coaster rides with strength. Exercising will also help immensely, and it's therapy.


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## Mothra777 (Apr 10, 2012)

I agree with canguy - if you are that depressed and having suicidal thoughts you need to get to a doctor and a counselor asap. I was absolutely distraught when my ex dropped the bomb on me that she wanted to separate. My doctor put me on meds that were both a sedative and antidepressant. They were fast acting and whilst they did not improve my situation - they certainly improved my sleep, my mood and gave me the ability to think more clearly. Hang in there - the initial shock is like a hurricane of emotions but eventually things to begin to settle


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I feel terrible now. I have to cool it with trying to contact her. I sent her 6 messages today. I don't think it is helping the situation.

What's IC? Intense Counseling? I have an appointment tomorrow night with a counselor.

I would prefer not to take meds. I have an addictive personality. I am a recovering alcoholic and drug addict (quit 10+ years ago).

I exercise regularly (run 4-5 days a week, bicycle on the weekends). Exercise does not help the whirlwind of emotions I am going through now.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I am sorry to keep sending mails. I am sure it is not helping. I have nobody to talk to now. I have no support network. I have no friends. I had my wife and children, but I don't have that anymore.

My effort to take a stand for myself and my feelings failed. I have nothing now and never will again. 

Why is life so unfair? I was a good husband and father. I am so sad. I just want to die.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I changed my mind. She is not going to reconcile. I am going to sell the house so I can atleast get my retirement savings back. I hate her.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead201 said:


> I changed my mind. She is not going to reconcile. I am going to sell the house so I can atleast get my retirement savings back. I hate her.


Keep letting it out.

But, realize how unhealthy you currently are.

Taking care of yourself is not your habit, but it needs to be.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

boxhead201 said:


> I have nothing now and never will again.
> 
> Why is life so unfair? I was a good husband and father. I am so sad. I just want to die.


I know how you feel. 

IC means individual counseling, which you will be doing (and you need). You must have some friends and family you can reach out to for help. What about work colleagues? You'd be surprised how many people will be open to helping. You need to reach out to them.

Glad you're running. Keep that up. Your roller coaster rides would be worse without them.

*My counselor shared some important things with me:*

1) Thought drives emotion. I know this will often be easier said than done, but try to focus and think about things that make you happy and give you pleasure. They can involve your kids, but keep your wife out of it. This is all about you, so be selfish. Over time what you feed your subconscious makes a difference. You can start by catching yourself in the midst of a pity party... shift your thinking.

2) Stay busy. Read the "No More Mr. Nice Guy!" book. Go out for a meal. Join something that will allow you to meet new people, even if you don't feel like it. I joined a Spanish class a few weeks after my wife left. Did wonders and gave me something different to look forward to. Keep exercising.

3) Visualize yourself in a better place. Set goals and work to achieve them. Imagine yourself happier and stronger as an individual. What would that look like to you? When things got rough for me, I imagined myself in a jeep going through rough terrain... when the going got tough, I visualized the wheels getting traction and pulling myself out of the rut I was in. Now I'm not a new-agey type of guy by any means, but let me tell you this helps over time.

*Now my advice:*

A) Having a pity party for yourself? Don't allow it to go on for more than 10 minutes before you shift your thinking.

B) Man the hell up. 

C) Try to eat well and get some sleep. You'll need your strength to cope, think and function.

D) Don't forget your kids. They will take their cues from you and sense your emotions. I am not saying it's not ok to be sad around them, just remember this difficult time i not just about you. It's about your kids and does affect them. Be a good dad and do not let go of your responsibilities. They will love and respect you for it, and you will love and respect yourself for it too down the road.

E) *Don't f*cking kill yourself. *You're facing an incredibly difficult time in your life. I get that. It is survivable, it does and will get better, and a lot of that depends on you. For the first several weeks I did not believe those words myself and only saw and felt darkness. In time, I finally saw a light at the end of the tunnel. You will too. Remember you have kids. Don't let them down. Be the man they would respect. 

Consider yourself in training to become a better and stronger man. We're here to cheer you on, challenge you, give you advice, and kick your a$$. 

Be ready for some tough love, some kind souls and some great support.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks for your support. I could not sleep last night. I had to take a sick day off today. IC is tonight at 6pm. 

I have no friends in Hong Kong. I am a foreigner. The work associates I have would not understand me - and it would not be appropriate to talk about this to them. I have no friends outside of work - only my wife and children (-wife). I have one sister in Boston which is twelves hours different. I talk to her when I can, but it's hard because of the time difference. 

I used do sailing and windsurfing alot - but that fell by the wayside when the wife went into crazy mode. I will start picking that up again. I see alot of the same people in there. "Ming the Merciless" was one guy I saw frequently. 

I want to get out of dodge and travel. That I hope will help. I told my boss I plan on traveling and let him know I am going through a separation and he was understanding. I am working on my passport visa now so I can go.

I don't think there is any reconciliation here. She has clearly moved on and wants me out of her life. I ask the wife to sell the house and car so I can get my money back. I poured my life savings into the place where she is living now. I hope she respects my wishes and returns my money to me. I will be sending alimony in the meantime (sent the first check today). I will then be filing for divorce once the house and car are sold.

She is filling the kids heads with lies about me. She put them into church without my approval. She is also saying bad things about me to them. I really want to see the kids, but how can I in this situation? I am just as capable of taking care of the kids as her, but she won't let me take care of them. How can I see my children? I tried to see my daughter today, but it got shut down. I am afraid I will never be able to see the children.

I lost my appetite several days ago. Been trying to eat, but can't. I exercised yesterday, but went slow and cried the whole way.

The following is interesting - 

"When things got rough for me, I imagined myself in a jeep going through rough terrain... when the going got tough, I visualized the wheels getting traction and pulling myself out of the rut I was in."

I have a hard time thinking in abstractions. Can you give me a concrete example of this?

Another question -

I am OCDing really bad on e-mail and my phone. Any tips on how to break the OCD cycle ?


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

boxhead201 said:


> The following is interesting -
> 
> "When things got rough for me, I imagined myself in a jeep going through rough terrain... when the going got tough, I visualized the wheels getting traction and pulling myself out of the rut I was in."
> 
> ...


That is the concrete example. Imagine yourself driving the jeep (you) through rough terrain (emotions and anxiety). When I was feeling overwhelmed I visualized myself moving forward thought it all... driving the jeep out of my thoughts of the moment and trying never to spin my wheels. It was as I was leaving the negativity behind and always moving forward and progressing. This visualization helped me feel like I was shifting my thinking, not wallowing, and shaking off the negativity. It took practice but it helped. Not saying this will work for everyone.

As for OCDing, I did the same thing. It was maddening. You could try leaving your phone at home sometimes when you go out for a run. Train yourself not to check the phone so often, setting time intervals for yourself (only check every 30 mins not every 5, for example), then increase them. This will improve with time.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

BH... have not heard from you today. How are things?


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Went for IC last night. Some take aways ...

1. OCD represents the spider spinning the web that constantly spins webs. Need to embrace and channel the OCD into something more productive like building electronics projects, cleaning, cooking and watching movies. I am going to make the kids things and mail them regularly. I am also thinking about taking up fishing.
2. Our brains our wired in such a way that we can't deal with negations. e.g. "don't pick up the bottle" yields in us picking up the bottle. Need to communicate in positives and not negatives. I should have said "I want more of this and that."
3. Wife and I were not communicating because we were speaking different languages. We were not communicating properly. We were driven apart by our anxieties. She was anxious for the kids while I was anxious about become angry & violent.
4. Respect myself. I deserve to be taken care of. Need to eat healthy which will contribute to mental stability. Before the separation I ate fairly healthy but my diet has been screwed up lately. Haven't been eating right or at all. Trying to get that back under control. Still don't have much of an appetite. Barely able to eat this sandwich right now. I was able to run 5k today.
5. Traveling will help. I plan on using one of the children's toys to do the "gnome" thing with. 

We did some of the "sand" thing. At first I refused to change the sand because to me the sand represents another person and if you change the sand you are trying to change another person which may not be fair. She explained to me that the sand is used as a healing mechanism. The sand confuses me; I am unsure it how it can be used as a healing mechansim.

I asked about what I have to look forward to for the separation; she said.

1. Stabilize now. Stability for the children. I am going to contact them on a regular basis when the wife is not there. I will try to call me son in the morning daily. My daughter regularly texts me, so I will keep texting her. I will start sending them postal mail with pictures. I went looking today for certain toys I can use as "gnomes" in the picture.
2. Stabilize future. Look forward to arraingements. (?) need more info here.

As for the stabilize part, I've asked my wife to sell the house because I want my retirement savings back. This invariably will lead to destabilization of the kids for a short period while they move, so I may be focusing on stabilization for a bit.

3. pain. deal with pain and loneliness. I'm already dealing with this? Concept of "Me & I" confuses me a little. Does anyone out there know what an "observer ego" is ?
4. healing reconciliation.
5. construct new self image.

Does anyone out there have any documents that better explains what I might be looking forward to in the separation, in detail?

Another thing I was aware of that we discussed is my wife and my MIL. For some time now I felt my wife treated me as how the MIL treated the FIL; like ****. The MIL treats the FIL like **** because there was some EA's there. I feel like I am treated like the FIL. I brought this up to my wife before and she adamantly denied the connection. It appears that the wife has turned into the MIL. I am not a fan of my MIL and I am definitely not the FIL. I have no right to be treated like the FIL and refuse to be treated as such. We touched upon this last night.

Bought some anti-histamines and I was able to sleep the whole night. At work today. A little foggy from the anti-histamine and lack of sleep. I little bit of a rollercoaster this morning, but I white knuckled it. 

The major goal I have right is just leave the wife alone, communicate with the kids directly and stay really busy. Leaving the wife alone and being silent is the biggest obstacle I have to face right now. I am going 1-step forward and don't want to go 2-steps back with any contact. Any suggestions on how I can easily overcome this obstacle?

During this time I have to move on, recover and just forget about her. It's over. She ain't gonna change. She's become the same person as my MIL. That's going to be a hard road to follow. The good side is, I am free, I have my life back. I can hang a poster (couldn't in the old place). I can have my stuff everywhere and not packed in boxes in the ceiling.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

Hi BH, nice to see you got so much from IC. This was your first session I assume? Things will get better as you really starting digging.

Sounds like you're piecing together a plan of action for yourself. That's excellent and will make you feel in control (because you will be).

You know... back in December-January, I thought I would die. I certainly wanted to. As the weeks went on and I was a friend to myself things did slowly get better. And now they're great. I am no longer with a woman who did not want to be with me. I feel free, happier than I've been in years, and actually looking forward to dating again. I mean thing when I say... if I can get through it anyone can. 

You should ask your counselor about the "Me and I" and sand concepts. I can take a guess, but I might be off base. 



> Does anyone out there have any documents that better explains what I might be looking forward to in the separation, in detail?


Do you mean as far as your personal growth is concerned? If so, here a short list: self-respect, freedom, clarity, happiness, optimism, strength and self-confidence. You'll get a realization that this was for the best, in time. To get to the other side of this you have to walk through hell first. Several of us have done that.



> The major goal I have right is just leave the wife alone, communicate with the kids directly and stay really busy. Leaving the wife alone and being silent is the biggest obstacle I have to face right now. I am going 1-step forward and don't want to go 2-steps back with any contact. Any suggestions on how I can easily overcome this obstacle?


I would suggest when you have an urge for non-necessary contact with your stbxw, 1) give yourself 20 minutes or even 24h before you act on anything (chance are the feeling will subside), 2) write it out - keep a journal and spill your guts (effective therapy), and 3) use this forum to vent. I liked to think to myself that even when I felt like things were two steps forward, one step back that I was still one step ahead. 

A terrific woman on this forum, jpr, shared the following story one day. It really spoke to me, and I hope it is helpful to you:

_An old Cherokee chief was teaching his grandson about life...

"A fight is going on inside me," he said to the boy. 
"It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves.

"One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, self-doubt, and ego.

"The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. 

"This same fight is going on inside you - and inside every other person, too."

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, 
"Which wolf will win?"

The old chief simply replied, 
"The one you feed."_

Great to hear from you and nice to see you're positive action!!


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks for your help canguy66. I appreciate it.

Stayed busy last night and took "gnome" pictures for the kids. Sent them the pictures this morning. I bought some electronics projects that I will solder together and hopefully send to the kids next week.

Didn't sleep so well last night even with the anti-histamine. Had to keep fighting the bad thoughts. Had dreams of the wife with other men. Lots of jealousy. Lots of anger. I find the "jeep on rough terrain" metaphor is useful. I liked the wolf story; how do I starve the jealousy/anger part of the wolf?

A part of me feels guilty for freaking out over last weekend. I really lost it. The C thinks my OCD saved my life because I channeled suicidal thoughts into nasty messages. They probably destroyed whatever chance I had left at reconciliation. The C thinks I need to embrace the OCD and forgive myself. It's hard to forgive myself (or somebody) when they act like this.

Another thought that is plaguing me over and over again is about wanting to reconcile. A part of me wants it. Another part of me absolutely detests it. It is never going to work because I very much dislike the person the stbxw has become; my MIL. We are no longer evenly "yolked;" I being anti-religious while she is a religious nut-job. I never want to get into another situation where I am neglected, not listened to, not treated as an equal and "cast aside." We're like water and oil now. I need to kill these reconciliation thoughts; but how? I wish I could just erase my mind and start over. 

The only way I know now to avoid these thoughts is to keep busy. I came up with a list of things I need to do (big & small). 

One problem that I am faced with is weekends. I want to keep Saturday's open, but I don't want to waste my time waiting around. I don't want my OCD to fester on bad things while I am waiting around for nothing to happen. I did that for the past 2 weekends. I find that if I wait around, the bad feelings get to build. I usually like to get out early in the morning. This weekend I want to leave my phone behind, but I don't want to upset the kids. I am probably going to leave my daughter a text and let her know I am not around so she does not get upset.

I have an unresolved anger issue that has been growing as the years has gone on. The way I would approach it is "walk away" everytime I felt angry. "Walking away" is what I was taught when I had to go into a court mandated anger management class 15 years ago. The recommendations that I took away from that class did not solve the underlying problem. I kept going back and getting burned. Everytime I went back it got worse and worse and worse. My recent situation with the stbxw and mil seems to have magnified this problem. I need to work with the C to completely weed out the underlying anger issue.

Need to maintain radio silence. That's the hard part for me.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Nothing is destroyed except the old dysfunctional way that had you in that crazy-making dance.

Make a vow to yourself that you'll never go back to that.

If reconciliation happens, it needs to be a new deal.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks Conrad.

I don't want to look forward to recon because I don't want to be disappointed and heartbroken. Like you said, I don't want to go back to the crazy dance, and if there is recon, there is a chance of a crazy dance. No thanks. I have to live life as if she does not exist anymore. I have to forget about recon.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead201 said:


> Thanks Conrad.
> 
> I don't want to look forward to recon because I don't want to be disappointed and heartbroken. Like you said, I don't want to go back to the crazy dance, and if there is recon, there is a chance of a crazy dance. No thanks. I have to live life as if she does not exist anymore. I have to forget about recon.


Keep working on yourself.

Your emotions are incredibly raw right now and you're oscillating back and forth between despair and righteous anger.

This is called "normal"

You can right your own ship by processing your own emotions. Figure out what you want - and why you want it.

Then go do it.

If she pops up at some point along the way? You can deal with her. If she stays silent?

The hell with the b*tch


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks Conrad.

One additional question I have for the group is what's the best method for maintaining radio silence. I am really angry with her and what nothing to do with her, ever. But at the same time I want to contact her. It does not make sense. My goal is to maintain radio silence, but I am driven to pick up that phone, send an e-mail or send a text. Why? How can I prevent myself from doing this? A poison pen letter, a fake e-mail address, etc. does not work because I know it is a fake place. 

I am aware what canguy66 says where I need to wait 20m to 24h to process the emotion to let it pass. But what I am confused about is why I want to do this in the first place? It doesn't make sense.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

I would keep contact to a minimum. When you do need to contact her (kids, finances, MIL) then be strong and keep it brief and all business.

At this point you need to protect and distance yourself emotionally so you can heal. That's why the 180 rules are so helpful, when followed.

In your past posts you mentioned getting angry and violent. Have you spoken with your counselor about that? Definitely something to work on.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Canguy;

I have never been violent with the stbxw or the children. Actually it's been 15 years since I have been violent. Those age-old feelings recently resurfaced which is why I left. I don't want to do something I will regret. My stbxw brings out this anger in me and it was getting uncontrollable again.

I feel bad for abandoning my family. I asked her to leave, she would not. I had no choice. The upside with leaving is I didn't take it to the next level - thank god. But the problem still is not solved.

I just started to work on the anger with the C. The C says that it is a fire that was never really put out. She says that leaving the situation does not solve the problem for the long term. I kept going back for more, getting burned worse every time. The C says that we need to work long and hard to get at the root of the anger and extinguish it for good. I am pretty sure it comes from somewhere in my childhood.

I just printed the 180. I will tattoo those rules on my chest.

She is now living in a house I paid for. I really hope she respects my wishes and sells it.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

You wife and kids are in your home in HK, correct? Are you living in the same city?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BH,

Your counselor is correct.

We carry our unprocessed emotions with us from childhood forward. There's likely an abandoned/neglected/abused little boy inside that get furious when he doesn't get his way.

You need to connect with that guy and thank him for trying to protect you. But, let him know you (the adult Boxhead - a magnificent mature man) are in charge - and that you'll take it from here.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Canguy;

I live close to the kids in HK. One stop away on the MTR. I text my daughter all the time. I just sent the kids some postal mail today. I will always be close by to them. I read and re-read the 180 tonight over dinner. I feel like an absolute ass because I did not follow some of the points. Going forward I need to treat the 180 as the "code to live by." 

Hi Conrad;

Thanks. I need to get to the bottom of my unprocessed emotion. I thought it was taken care of 15 years ago, but it started to surface again in the past 5 years until now it is unmanageable; I had to move out because of it. 

On the childhood front I was sort of abandoned and neglected. My parents were physically there, but not emotionally. They were emotionally abusive in fact. They were drunks. My father beat the **** out of my mother. I vowed never to be the same way.

* * *

I talked to the C about why I want to call the stbxw so bad when I do not like her. She says it is a love/hate relationship. I hate what the stbxw has become, but I also see the stbxw as a mother figure and I need nurturing and care from her. The latter is what is driving me to want to call. On the flip side, the stbxw sees me as a father figure, and the MIL treats the FIL like **** (probably because of EAs) which is why I in turn get treated similarly.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

Conrad said:


> BH,
> 
> Your counselor is correct.
> 
> ...


To add to that, I've read that there are two types of relationships.

In an adolescent relationship, there is a "you take care of me, I'll take care of you" mentality. When one person leaves the marriage, the other can feel very distressed and abandoned, as well as feel like a victim in the situation.

In a more mature relationship, we fulfill our own needs and are not dependent on others for our identity, emotional caretaking, etc. Think of it as two emotionally self-actualized individuals falling in love and choosing to share a life, while establishing personal boundaries and respect those of their partners. I know sounds idealized, but it is a much healthier type of relationship than the adolescent type. This is the type of am striving for next time around.

Make sense?


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Canguy;

In the beginning I felt like we had more of a mature relationship in the beginning, but it devolved into an adolescent relationship after the children were born. Is it possible for the relationship to devolve? I would love to have an idealized mature relationship, but to me it seems to be an extreme. Is it possible to have shades inbetween?

I don't think that we ever had the idealized mature relationship as you describe, but it was more mature than it was now. It seemed to devolve a bit. Before the children were born we were in love and had some great times together. But it was almost always co-dependent to some respect. It just seemed more mature back then. 

After they were born, she took an attitude like my input did not matter. She took care of the kids her way and her way only. I remember 5 years ago we had a big spat over how many layers a baby should wear on a summer day. She insisted on 5 layers; while I insisted on 1. Daddy's way as "bad." It was all downhill from there. To this day she demonizes what I do in front the kids. When we arrived in HK she started making all of these decisions without my input; what schools to goto, what activities to do, bought a car, yada yada yada. She completely cut me out of the picture, yet still needed me to pay the bills. I want more than to be the bill payer.

It appears after they were born our co-dependent relationship was solidified. She took care of the kids and house, and I paid the bills. Then we moved to HK and she took care of the inlaws as well, while I still paid the bills. We drifted further apart when we got here.

I did not want a co-dependent relationship; an adolescent relationship. I wanted the mature relationship we had way back in the beginning. My anger and resentment over this fact slowly grew over the past 5 years until now. I wanted to be listened to and respected.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead201 said:


> Hi Conrad;
> 
> Thanks. I need to get to the bottom of my unprocessed emotion. I thought it was taken care of 15 years ago, but it started to surface again in the past 5 years until now it is unmanageable; I had to move out because of it.
> 
> On the childhood front I was sort of abandoned and neglected. My parents were physically there, but not emotionally. They were emotionally abusive in fact. They were drunks. My father beat the **** out of my mother. I vowed never to be the same way.


Ok - I figured something like this was up.

Here's the hard truth.

You won't be able to accomplish anything - with her or with anyone else - until you get to bottom of what you just described.

If you go at it hard with a good counselor, you can probably knock it out in 3-6 months. I know that sounds like a long time. But, you will start to see improvement within 5 sessions.

Any intimate relationship you have is doomed until you root this out and deal with it. I know that's difficult to hear. But, I don't think you want to go through life with this happening again and again.

The reason why it didn't surface until you had kids was because that's when the pressure really starts - and insecurity starts to flourish.

I'm sorry you're hurting this way. But, at least you now have an idea why. And, there's something very constructive you can do about it to promote your future happiness.


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## Traggy (Jan 26, 2012)

Conrad said:


> BH,
> 
> Your counselor is correct.
> 
> ...


Problem is that little boy is driving 90% of the time.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Conrad,

Thanks for the news. I know I am in for some counseling. I've been through it before. I did 3 years of counseling before I met my stbxw. I am in it for the long haul; don't care how long it takes. My major goal now is the 180, chill for a bit, counseling, and keep sending the kids stuff.

I think my stbxw needs counseling too  and not god.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead201 said:


> Hi Conrad,
> 
> Thanks for the news. I know I am in for some counseling. I've been through it before. I did 3 years of counseling before I met my stbxw. I am in it for the long haul; don't care how long it takes. My major goal now is the 180, chill for a bit, counseling, and keep sending the kids stuff.
> 
> I think my stbxw needs counseling too  and not god.


The problem with relying only on God is that no on interprets for your little boy/girl inside.

If you have all those issues resolved, then reading sacred texts and classic literature opens many doors.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Conrad - Oh well, that's her deal. Who cares if she wants to ignore counseling. My deal is counseling because I want to heal and move on from this mess. I am angry because I have been ignored and neglected. My parents did it and now my wife. I need to get over that, but looking forward, it is not fair for a partner to ignore/neglect their spouse. So in some sense this anger is justified. I need to deal with it in counseling, but to what end? I mean, I don't want to get into another relationship where the same deal happens again because I'll just get angry again. Is counseling there to (a) help me resolve the original anger or (b) channel the anger into something more constructive? Confused because it is still not fair to ignore/neglect your spouse.

Canguy - been thinking about adolescent relationship vs. mature relationship. It seems a couple can only have a mature relationship if they are familiar with the pitfalls of an adolescent relationship. The only way to become familiar with these pitfalls with an adolescent relationship is by experiencing it. Therefore, it seems the only way to have a mature relationship is with another person who has been divorced. Am I missing something?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead201 said:


> Oh well, that's her deal. My deal is counseling.
> 
> Canguy - been thinking about adolescent relationship vs. mature relationship. It seems a couple can only have a mature relationship if they are familiar with the pitfalls of an adolescent relationship. The only way to become familiar with these pitfalls with an adolescent relationship is by experiencing it. Therefore, it seems the only way to have a mature relationship is with another person who has been divorced. Am I missing something?


I've heard there are actually emotionally healthy people out there somewhere.

The problem is, when we're needy, we attract neediness to us - like a magnet.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

boxhead201 said:


> Canguy - been thinking about adolescent relationship vs. mature relationship. It seems a couple can only have a mature relationship if they are familiar with the pitfalls of an adolescent relationship. The only way to become familiar with these pitfalls with an adolescent relationship is by experiencing it. Therefore, it seems the only way to have a mature relationship is with another person who has been divorced. Am I missing something?


No, I don't think that's the case. As Conrad said, us "nice guys" attract the needy type. Not all people are needy. I needed to say that. 

The potential benefits of going through process are to:

get in touch with yourself, to strengthen emotionally
learn to observe another person (and ourselves) in our lives (Conrad promotes this a lot) 
break out of the "nice guy" tendencies, and then keep them in check
rediscover what you want out of life and what makes you tick
realize that right now it might seem like your wife's loss, but it will eventually feel like your gain when you see the opportunities ahead of you

Someone who has gone through a separation/divorce will not necessarily make a good future partner. I think this has a lot to do with the individual, single or previously married/attached, and how much they learned and grown for a process such as what we're going through.

Speaking for myself, I feel like my eyes are wide open now. This is not to say I'm immune to problems of course, as this is simply part of life. However, I am much better prepared for my next relationship, when it happens. I know I will make an amazing partner to the next woman in my life, in a more healthy and balanced relationship, not to mention one in which my partner truly wants to be with me. I was lacking that in the latter stages of my marriage.

BH, seize this experience as an opportunity for growth. It will not be easy and will take a lot of reflection and work, but it will be worth it. Seems to me like you're already on your way.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

In fact, if they've been through TWO divorces (or more), it likely means they have learned nothing along the way.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi All;

1. I've been searching around the forum looking for guys that are in a similar situation. I haven't been able to find any. Can you point me to any threads where the husband left the wife? I did not leave because of infidelity. She treated me like a doormat for years and I grew angry and resentful over it. I left because she was treating me like ****. Anyone else out there in a similar boat ?

2. Daughter called and wants to see me on Saturday. I told her that the maid has to drop her off and pick her up; I can't see mommy right now. I would love to see the kids then. I don't want to call but I don't want to wait around forever wasting the day (that will make me upset). Hopefully Saturday is not derailed.

Maintaining radio silence.

<snip>

STBXW sent me a mail asking whether or not she should cash the check I sent her and that there is a pool party with a mutual friend. My emotions went nuts. I kept it strictly business. I told her to cash the check since it is alimony, I reiterated that I want her to sell the house, refund the my half of the car, and that I want the maid to bring the kids to me on Saturday. I ended with "thanks" and that's it. I wasn't mean. Just strictly biz. What a rush of emotion. Now I need to ride in the Jeep a bit to get over this.


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## our vision shattered (May 25, 2012)

Hang in there bh, I left because I was asked to so I did out of respect,boy I can relate to pain, check out some of my threads


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi OVS;

Yes, I have been reading your threads. Thanks. 

Hi All;

Dealing with the rollercoaster this morning.

The STBXW responded (via e-mail & text) to my biz response and asked me to delay selling the house a bit so she has time to move. She also said thanks for the check and asked for a minor clarification on the car refund. She said I can have the kids at 1pm on Saturday, with the maid. She said she needs a "very long time" to heal. The last statement is a very open ended statement that causes me to want reconciliation but at the same time, I need to wait for her.

I will not respond. I need to break the cycle. I need to do the 180. I called the maid directly and told her I will meet her and the kids on Saturday.

Don't pursue, bed, plead - No response. 

No future talk - She is leaving the future as an open ended question. She said to my sister she will never accept me. There is no future with her. I will not talk of a future with her and I will not entertain a future with her.

No reassurance; don't be overly enthusiastic - There is a slight glimmer of hope in the open ended statement she ended her email with. That statement makes me feel reassurred and enthusiastic. I have to extinguish this glimmer of hope because she told my sister its over and I have to move on.

Moving on - I am not going to wait around while she deals with her ****. I have been waiting around for her to "heal" for years now and I am tired of waiting in line behind everybody else. Because I have been waiting in line for so long I have become angry and resentful. My feelings mattered the least. It is time to move on and address my own feelings myself.

No marriage questions; don't lose my cool; be strong - hard to not lose my cool, but I have to keep it together in order to be successful at the 180. In this instance, I will not respond. The only marriage talk I will be talking about is a divorce once the flat is sold. Until then, no marriage talk whatsoever.

Be patient - be patient for what? I have been patient for years now. I am moving on.

Listen carefully - Perhaps I am reading into her email too much. Should I not listen carefully in this case? By OCDing on her mail it is causing me to hope, to want to reconcile. She says one thing to me and another to my sister. I can't be disappointed again so perhaps I should not be reading her stuff too closely.

I deleted her e-mails and texts. I have to use all of my power and energy now not to respond. Bigtime rollercoaster this morning. Can't even work.

<snip>

I am having a hard time keeping it together today. I ran 6 km and before I knew it the run was over. I am in a daze. I kept visualizing the jeep and the tires over and over again. The IC says that there is no hope between me and the STBXW. I have a feeling that this weekend will be another dark time for me. I would appreciate it if anyone can impart any words of wisdom to help me through.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

feeling really bad today. researched divorce. need to let go.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

Hi BH, sorry to hear you're having a rough time. Sounds to me like you're doing many things right - exercise, IC, venting.

How are you doing with no contact? If you have have to contact her (kids for example), are you keeping it to business only?

Unfortunately, there is no shortcut to better times. You have a difficult and painful road ahead of you, but know this - the pain will lessen with time, you will grow from this gain strength you forgot you had, it does get better, and you will need to be patient.

Cope as best you can. Find distractions. Keep up the good things you're doing. 

A few months ago, I did not believe things would improve. I thought my pain would be permanent, but it wasn't. Fast-forward seven months, and I am at peace with the end of my marriage, and am happier than I have been for years. A new woman is entering my life now, and I am really looking forward to seeing what unfolds. This is absolutely amazing.

So you see, you do have something to look forward to, in time, so hold on.

Have you read the "No More Mr. Nice Guy!" book yet?


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

Hi Boxhead, I don't want to sound like I don't have empathy, but my wife left 10 days ago and I'm struggling not giving her space, but at the same time taking this as a step to refind myself. If it helps, what I'm doing to stay positive and not get to down is to refind myself. At the end of the day, you were probably a confident person before you met your spouse and the best thing you can do is to focus on yourself. It's not easy to get away from the pitty party, but the more I force myself to worry about myself the better I feel. The whole experience is deffinately a roller coaster though. Feeling good one minute and down the next. Hange in there. I'll put you in my prayers.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi CanGuy;

Thanks for the response. I have not had any contact. If she does contact me, I will be sure to keep it to strictly business only. I still keep OCDing on my e-mail, texts and postal mail. Trying to limit myself. I rationalize the limiting by telling myself, "nothing's there anyways, why check?" Whenever I go and check my mail, I shudder for some reason. I am trying my best to do the 180.

I am dealing with depression daily. Dealing with sleeplessness. I have a pain in the pit of my stomach. I am losing weight. I think these are depression symptoms. I lost my appetite. I have to force myself to eat. Still exercising. I noticed that when I feed the good parts of the wolf, the symptoms of depression subside a little bit. The IC recommended a daily morning ritual here in order to help with this.

I am dealing with loneliness now as well. It comes out worst on the weekends. The IC thinks I need to be social more, but it is hard for me since I am an introvert by nature.

To cope, my distractions will be movies, building things for my kids, getting prepared for a "morse test" on June 30, and travel.

Been looking for similar situations on this board similar to mine - could not really find any. I talked to the IC about this and she handled 4 other cases (similar to mine) where in the husband left. In all cases, the wife refused to reconcile; the husband left all of a sudden. In my case I repeatedly let me wife know that we will be separating; she had sufficient notice. A little bit of me wants to reconcile, but considering the odds that I have this sounds like it is not an option. It is probably better to not reconcile because I feel nothing but anger and hate towards her. The IC thinks she checked out of the relationship several years ago when I disappeared for 3 days because I was mad at her for something. Since then our relationship has been in limbo and declining. The IC and my sister thinks I need to goto the batting cages to release my anger.

I have been OCDing on the STBXW's email last week to me. It ended with "It's going to take a long time for me to recover from this." To me this is an open ended statement saying that if there is to be reconciliation, it will be a long way off. I don't want to wait. I want to move on. I can never forgive her for the way she treated me. As Conrad put it, I don't want to go back to that crazy dance. 

"Thought drives emotion." I have been thinking about this statement alot and I am trying to stop the thought. It is hard to stop the thought, but when it comes I use the jeep metaphor to attempt to pull me away. It is especially bad when I am sleepless in the early morning. All I think is how much I hate her. I was cast aside and treated like a piece of crap for all these years. I am angry and heartbroken over how casually she disregarded our marriage. I have to stop these thoughts. They just keep rolling in my mind over and over and over again. It is a constant battle to get rid of these thoughts.

Hi jdlash;

Thanks for putting me in your prayers.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

I know all about the battle, pain, anxiety and stress you're going through, along with the OCD. Been there.

I'm glad you're angry - that's healthy. I think you should go to the batting cages and let it out. It will feel good.

BH, I like how you're taking action to pull yourself out of the rut. You're doing so more quickly that I did, and that will help shorten the pain and healing period.

I recommend you see your doctor about some sleeping meds. Mine prescribed them over anti-depressants, and the sleep was essential in helping me face the demons of the next day. Getting good rest needs to be part of your action plan.

I am also an introvert by nature, but found I needed to be more social as I recovered. What are some of your hobbies? Are there groups or clubs you can join to find people with similar interests? Can you volunteer somewhere? It's easier to put yourself in social situation that you might think.

I will remind you that it does get better, even though you may not realize if now. Remember where you are today. A week from now, see if you've noticed changes in your perspective, sleeping, thought patterns, etc.

Better days are down the road, which is a rough going right now, but will get smoother in time.

Cheers for now.


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## our vision shattered (May 25, 2012)

Hi boxhead, just a quick note making sure your doing ok, keep up the no contact


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi CanGuy;

I have a fair amount of hobbies. I like to sail, windsurf. I am a radio amateur (VR2UZY/AB1OT). I run, hike, bicycle. I like to watch movies. I do Yoga. There are peer groups for some of these hobbies, but my biggest excuse is that I have difficult time interacting with the local people. I find them a bit standoffish. I encountered this with sailing and ham radio groups. I think my anxiety surrounding this is magnified because I am an introvert. In the coming days I will be thinking about what I can do to join a social group (no church!). What exactly did you do to throw yourself into this? 

Why is anger healthy? In my case, my anger destroyed my relationship. It caused me to stand up for myself. It is what caused me to move out. I see it as a detriment in some respects because of this. I feel much anger now. I can never forgive my STBXW for the way she casually disregarded our marriage.

Hi OVS;

Thanks for your support.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

B-Head,

Anger didn't destroy your relationship.

Lack of boundaries did.

You both played a major role in it.

It won't be solved by her retreat into religion.

It also won't be solved by you playing doormat for another 5-10 or even 20 years.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi;

Swinging back and forth today. Thanks Conrad - I don't want to be a doormat either. I think this relationship could have used better boundaries.

I miss my kids really bad. I miss putting them to sleep. I miss waking them up. I miss playing with them. I can't do this. I can't live away from my children like this.

The IC says the marriage is over because the STBXW will not reconcile. The IC says that STBXW considers my actions abandonment, running away. I warned the STBXW many times that there were problems and I will separate from her. We even had a conversation where we mutually agreed on separation. Is this still considered abandonment? Am I still running away even though we mutually agreed? The IC says I need to move on, but obviously I am having a very hard time doing so.

What do you guys think can fix this marriage? Is it fixable? I miss my children.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

The only option is to go dark and see if she misses you.

The Healing Heart: The 180


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Conrad;

Ever since I moved out I've been pretty dark. Then on June 9-10 I freaked out and had a bad weekend. Sent many nasty grams. Then I went dark again and only responded to one-mail on June 13. Since then it has been radio silence and it is taking a heavy toll on me. I asked the IC today to see what I can do to start taking antidepressants and sleeping pills.

I gather (a) she was relieved and happy when I moved out. I just caused her stress. (b) she told my sister she will never "accept" me again. (c) the IC says she will not reconcile with me because I abandoned her. (d) she does not want to go to counseling, but wants to goto god instead. (e) should told me in her last communication she needs a long time to find herself and heal.

Because of (a) - (e) my chances of reconciliation are low. I am extremely hurt that I was used and discarded. Sounds like she won't miss me. Sounds like she is happy to be through with me.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi All;

The depression and OCD are on overdrive this morning. I ate but I feel like I am going to throw up. I am OCDing like crazy checking my e-mail and phone for any possible message. Does anyone have any recommendation on how I can alleviate the OCD symptoms?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BH,

Did you read about the 180?


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Conrad;

I have the 180 printed in multiple places and right in front of me. I read it many times. I am following it. I am just having a hard time now with physiological symptoms: depression and OCD. The OCD is killing me because I keep wanting to check my e-mail, phone for a possible message - a message I won't have. I know I need to have patience and give it time, but the OCD makes it really hard. How can I get over the OCD?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead201 said:


> Hi Conrad;
> 
> I have the 180 printed in multiple places and right in front of me. I read it many times. I am following it. I am just having a hard time now with physiological symptoms: depression and OCD. The OCD is killing me because I keep wanting to check my e-mail, phone for a possible message - a message I won't have. I know I need to have patience and give it time, but the OCD makes it really hard. How can I get over the OCD?


Visual images sometimes help me. Try this one:


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

boxhead201 said:


> Hi Conrad;
> 
> I have the 180 printed in multiple places and right in front of me. I read it many times. I am following it. I am just having a hard time now with physiological symptoms: depression and OCD. The OCD is killing me because I keep wanting to check my e-mail, phone for a possible message - a message I won't have. I know I need to have patience and give it time, but the OCD makes it really hard. How can I get over the OCD?


You can't get over the OCD, but you can find things to help cut down on your tendencies.

An idea for the phone...this helped me at one time as I struggled with this myself in the past. I would literally stare at my phone, waiting to see if the red indicator light was flashing. Sometimes I would have a message and it wouldn't flash, so I became paranoid that I might have a message if I didn't pick it up and check it. Drove me out of my mind. 

I decided I would take my phone out to my car and lock it in there. I'd then go back inside and set a timer. At first I started out with small increments - 5 minutes, then 10, 20, 30, you get the idea. I had to work myself up to allowing more and more time to pass before I would go out and check my phone, and ultimately it worked for me. You might have to tweak the approach for your needs, but it's a start.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Conrad - I don't get the picture. Can you explain?

SVL - Thanks. Canguy66 also mentioned that I need to start spacing out the OCD (5 min, 10 min, 1 hour, 2 hours, etc). I am trying to space it out. Some days are good. Some days are bad. Today is bad. 

Right now I am dealing with (3) major issues:

(a) Psyiological issues from depression and OCD. Forcing myself to eat and exercise. Trying to get over the OCD.

(b) Reconciliation anxiety. I am really hoping for a reconciliation and this is creating anxiety for me. (a) she was relieved and happy when I moved out. I just caused her stress. (b) she told my sister she will never "accept" me again. (c) the IC says she will not reconcile with me because I abandoned her. I don't think I abandoned because we mutually agreed on separation. (d) she does not want to go to counseling, but wants to goto god instead. (e) should told me in her last communication she needs a long time to find herself and heal. It appears my chances of reconciliation are low. How can I overcome this anxiety?

(c) Separation anxiety. I miss the kids. I miss putting them to sleep, waking them up, being with them. I want to be with them. I want to live with them again. I have very limited access to the kids now and will probably have very limited access for quite some time. She has always tightly controlled the kids environment and always disregarded my input on child rearing. Since reconciliation is probably not going to happen, how can I get over this anxiety?


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

Do you, or would you consider wearing, one of those rubbery bracelets? I used to wear one and whenever I felt the urge to check I'd snap it against my skin. If it didn't sting enough to distract me I'd do it again. I feel your pain, although mine was due to something completely different. But the need to check was always there. Took me a solid year, year and a half, to find coping methods that worked for me. I've tried everything. What works one day might not work the next. Keep doing what works when it works. You'll get through this time in your life. I promise you will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## our vision shattered (May 25, 2012)

hey boxhead, just seeing how you are tonight. hope your staying strong, im little down but decent i guess. hang in there my friend. i'm here with ya


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

How do you overcome the anxiety? This will sting......Acceptance. 

You have to accept that this may be the way life is now. Take a deep, deep breath. You will be okay. You will. 

You have to start re-building your life into something you can be proud of or this will consume you. It's okay to grieve the loss of the life and family you once had. You need to. Grieving that loss doesn't mean you are weak. Even if you reconcile, life will be different. Things will never be the way they were.

If you haven't started the legal process yet, at least go have a temporary custody hearing so you have set visitation with the kids. Don't just let her control when you get to see your children. Just because she is the mother doesn't mean she has the right to withold your children from you, if that's the case. Cherish the time you spend with them when you are able to. 

But you cannot hope to cope with what life has laid out before you unless you begin to accept the fact that life has changed. Step out of the darkness that is the past. You can't heal until you do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

Be prepared though.....if she is that controlling, a summons delivered to her by way of a Sheriff's Deputy for a temporary custody hearing will surely elicit some of that emotion you've been needing to see from her. And it won't be pretty. 

And you know what? Too f'ing bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## our vision shattered (May 25, 2012)

words to live by


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks for your input SVL, Conrad and OVS. BTW - I live in HK so divorce laws are different here. Divorce is actually very simple if you have been separated for one year. I have to research child custody and access. One more question regarding my reconciliation anxiety.

I have a flat that I paid for with my entire retirement savings. She and the kids are living in it now. If there is no chance of reconciliation I do not think it is fair that the STBXW live in a flat that I purchased with my retirement savings. If I push her to sell then that means it will be the death knell for reconciliation. If I hang back and wait, then there may be a chance at reconciliation. What should I do? Move forward and push her to sell? Or hang back and wait?


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

When was it purchased? If it was purchased during the marriage, then she has equal entitlement to it. In that case, even if you pushed her to sell it, she might tell you to take a long walk off a short cliff. 

Listen....you're going about this all wrong. Figure out what you want without taking her or a possible reconciliation into account. Make a decision. Has she asked you if it's okay with you that she withholds your children from you? Is she worried that denying your mutual children access to their father may be detrimental to a reconciliation? Show her the same courtesy she is showing you, but do it in a respectable manner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi SVL;

Thanks. The flat was purchased during the marriage with my entire retirement savings. She did not contribute at all to the purchase. I have nothing now. I have no retirement. I do agree legally she is entitled to half, but it is not fair. I don't want our matrimonial home defiled with the presence of other men. I want to let that place go and return whatever is left over to me. By pushing her to sell puts the death stake in reconciliation, but it alleviates my anxiety because I get a piece of myself back and my jealousy is mitigated somewhat. 

She is not denying me access to the kids. I am just very worried about it - anxious. Last time I saw the kids, I had to be chapperoned because she does not trust me with the kids alone. She never trusted me with the kids. She made it clear through her actions that she thinks I am a bad daddy. I don't want to continue to be chapperoned. Nothing bad has happened yet, but I am very anxious in this respect considering her past actions.

I think I need to come to terms of acceptance. I need to accept the fact that my entire retirement savings maybe lost. I need to accept the fact that my access to the children will be severely limited. I need to accept the fact that she may bring men into a home I bought for her.


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

Fair has nothing to do with it. Should it? Sure. But it doesn't. Snap out of that kind of thinking. One thing at this point should be obvious......what you want doesn't matter. Not to her. 

If you're in another country, I don't know what the laws are. But here in the good ol U.S. of A, what would likely happen is that whoever is awarded primary physical care of the children would also be awarded the marital home. She may have to buy you out of your half at the time of the divorce, or likely she would be allowed to stay in the home until all the children born of the marriage turn 18, at which point she would have to sell it and split the proceeds with you. But just because you bought it with your retirement money doesn't mean much. She could argue that she couldn't work because she had to be a SAHM, and that's where her contribution came from. She could come up with any excuse, really, but bottom line - she probably won't have to. She just gets half. And she may get to stay for a lot longer than you would like. But again....don't know the laws there.

If you have chaperoned visits with your children, then yes, you are being denied access to them. Who made her believe she gets to make those decisions? And why are you letting her walk all over you? Are you incapable of caring for the children alone? If not, then empower yourself. Don't tell me there aren't laws wherever you live to get temporary custody arrangements setup prior to a divorce. I don't believe that for a second. Research it before wiping the notion away.

You are accepting the wrong things. Say instead:

I accept the fact that my wife left me.
I accept the fact that I have the ability to decide how I will react to this situation.
I accept the fact that I have equal rights to my children.
I accept the fact that she simply released me back into the world to one day find someone truly worthy of my love, compassion, and personal and unique gifts, because she sure as hell wasn't worthy of them.

That's what you need to accept.

Life deals some crappy hands, I get that. We all get that. That's why we're here. But you have a choice here. Feel empowered by knowing you have that choice. You can let despair, fear of the unknown, and feelings of hurt and rejection envelope and consume you, that's a choice. Or you can throw your hands up in the air, say, "well sh!t, that didn't pan out like I thought it would," and find a plan b. And you never know - plan b might be 100x better than the first. But if you live in the past and refuse to start moving on with your life, then she wins. SHE WINS. Don't let her take anymore from you. You have that choice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi SVL;

Thanks for the tough love. My father and mother always told me, "life is not fair." That statement could never be more true.

One clarification. I moved out. I left my wife because she treated me like crap. You are technically correct though when you say "I accept the fact that my wife left me." She left me awhile ago when she checked out of this relationship.

I think I just need to capitulate and accept the current situation. It is still too early to tell how the access situation will pan out for the children. I am just anxious in this regard. But I need to let it pan out to see what happens.


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

I don't know the specifics of your story, no, sorry. I was the one who moved out as well though - you're in good company. But you get the jist of the things you need to focus on accepting. The mind is a powerful thing. Wrap it around believing you're worth more than what you've been given by her - and truly believe it- and you're off to a magnificent start.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi SVL;

Thanks for lifting me out of the funk this morning. I appreciate it.


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

I suppose it is morning over there - this girl is just getting ready to go to bed. I don't know you, but I know we all deserve better, despite the mistakes we ourselves might have made. It takes two people to argue, right? 

When it comes to the anxiety.....you're familiar with the serenity prayer, aren't you? Repeat that to yourself and have faith that things will work out. Believe that they will. You're in the unknown right now, which is sometimes the hardest place to be. It can be scary, without a doubt. Let a little hope into your life and hang onto it instead of all of the negativity. Just because she wants things with the children a certain way doesn't mean she'll get it. No court - no matter what country you're in - willl care about her hissy fits or sense of entitlement to the kids. The truth is, children need both their mom and dad to grow as healthy individuals. The courts know that too. Have faith. And choose to have a great day today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi SVL;

I am not religious. One of the reasons why I left is because my wife became very religious all of a sudden. She put our 2 kids in sunday school without discussing it with me. That was the straw that broke the camel's back. 

I googled the serenity prayer. Read it and printed it. It makes alot of sense. "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change."


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead201 said:


> Conrad - I don't get the picture. Can you explain?


When someone is unable to "unfocus" on their spouse, the gang here uses 2x4's to wake them up.

Most of these are already allocated to Synthetic. However, Calvin says he's ordering 4x4's for Synthetic because he's a special case. So, we could divert some of these to use on you.

It's a great visual, isn't it?


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Poor me.

Would it be wrong to say most guys that get fixed with a few 2x4s have had the privilege of getting cheated on, while in my case there has (hopefully) been no infidelity?!

There's also the other fact that I've managed to lure my wife back into our relationship at least 10 times when she 'supposedly' was done with us!


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Conrad;

I get it. Very nice. Thanks.


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

boxhead201 said:


> Hi SVL;
> 
> I am not religious. One of the reasons why I left is because my wife became very religious all of a sudden. She put our 2 kids in sunday school without discussing it with me. That was the straw that broke the camel's back.
> 
> I googled the serenity prayer. Read it and printed it. It makes alot of sense. "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change."


I would consider myself more spiritual than religious, but really, you don't have to be either for the serenity prayer to be a powerful tool. Like the line you quoted from it, it's simply about acceptance of what we have no control over. And my advice about having faith is directed at having faith that the situation will turn itself around - believing in positivity and not focusing on the negatives. Believe that good things can and will still happen for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Guys - what's the longest period you've been dark without contact? I have now been out 21 days. Been dark for 7.

Saw the IC 3 times so far. Each experience has been helpful.

The anxiety melted away yesterday after SVL's help. Came back a little bit today. I am just about to go into the weekend. Weekend's are especially difficult.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi All;

Early in the day I found that I was not going to be able to see the kids this weekend because our maid will be on holiday tomorrow. It is logistically difficult to see the kids when the maid is not around. I need the maid to bring the kids to me and act as an impartial observer should something happen (e.g. chapperone). The maid is a buffer between me and the STBXW.

Got a text from the STBXW tonight about seeing the kids this weekend. I told her I would be very happy to see the kids but there was a problem because the maid was going to be on holiday. She responded back saying she could drop them off to me. I responded back saying I cannot see her now and apologized profusely. She sent another text back saying her sister could take care of it. Again, I refused and apologized profusely. I don't want to see any of my STBXW's crazy family. She responded again appearing agitated and said she was going to take the kids to me. I responded back and said I cannot see her, I am very sorry and I really appreciate her trying to set this up. 5 minutes later I got a call from the IC asking what was going on. It seems like my wife called the IC directly to see what the hell was going on. I told the IC I am not emotionally stable enough to see my STBXW. I don't want to witness 9-11 and then have to take care of the kids upset. The counselor seemed to understand. Hopefully something will change between now and tomorrow where I can see the kids via a mutual friend. Fingers crossed.

I feel bad about this incident. I kept my cool. I appeared strong and was cheery in my text messages. I feel bad because the children and myself suffer because I will be missing an outing with them. Did I violate the 180 by stating that I don't want to see my STBXW? Is the fact that I don't want to see my STBXW showing that I am weak? Did I violate anything about the 180? It doesn't seem so - but it doesn't seem right still. 

I am emotionally weak right now. The last couple of days have been better. The depression hasn't been that bad. I got some good sleep last night. And I am eating a little more now. I don't want the STBXW to screw it up. I frankly never want to see her again after what she did to me. She violated our marriage vows by walking away in a time of need and she treated me like a doormat all these years. On the flip side I have been there for her 110% for 10+ years. When the going got rough, she dropped me like a hot potato. I really don't want to see her. I know I have to forgive her and move on; but I don't think I can right now (or ever). It's only been 21 days since I moved out. It may take quite awhile before I am actually able to face her again. Until then I need to maid to act as the buffer I need.

Is what I did wrong tonight? I feel like in some ways yes - the kids suffer. They called me crying tonight. I told them I could not see them tomorrow. Could I have handled this situation better? I know some of you are going to say that I need to get over it and man up. I am never going to get over what she did to me. I am definitely moving on with my life without her. I have no intention of being social with a woman who treated me like trash. If there is no chance of reconciliation what is the point of being social with her. I don't want to waste my time being "friends" with her. I don't want to get heartbroken again. I don't even want to see her now. I won't be mean; I will always be polite, strong and apologetic. Underneath I want to avoid her like the plague. She is radioactive.


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

Do you want my honest opinion??


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

yes - be brutal


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

Tonight the kids were placed in the middle and they lost out. If she offered to drop the kids off, you could have set boundaries before her arrival and made the transfer. If she started to push your boundaries then you simply say "I'm not okay with that.", she needs nothing more, nothing less from you.

Kiddos need to see there father and they should give you strength through this time more than anything else.

You may have thought you came off strong and cool, but the fact that you could not do this comes off a lot differently.

Things are tough, feel unbearable and down right vomit inducing .. I know, I was there 2-3 months ago but the one thing I hope from this point on that will stick out in your mind is your kids.

Sure, you didn't see the b!tch but you also didn't see your kids and now you get to feel bad about that as well. 

Whereas, you could have taken the hit but gained a positive (your kids).


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

You had a bad night, take ownership of it and start new tomorrow. One day at a time dude.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks. Since it is daytime here, I have a chance. I am relenting and going to try to see my kids.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

It's all set. I pick them up at 1pm HKT. 

I screwed up though. I failed the 180. Get the 2x4s out. I started talking about the marriage, wanting to reconcile and wanting to come home. She said we will be apart for atleast a year while she "finds herself." She has too much to deal with now; the kids, her sick mother, her job. Our relationship is unimportant to her. What does it really mean when I women says that she wants to "find herself?" 

Through this little incident I learned that no matter how painful it is to be around her, I still have to be around her for the kids. I have to accept that fact and deal with it. 

I decided it would be best to leave the house alone. I don't want to force her to sell because it will upset the kids too much. I expressed a little bit of jealousy because I don't want her to bring men to our home (she hasn't?). I am resigned to the fact that I lost my retirement savings.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I just finished a day out with the kids. It seems to have made my anxieties worse. I am sad, lonely and really want to reconcile now. I am thinking this whole moveout thing was a major mistake on my part that I will suffer the rest of my life for. I should have went to counseling first before moving out.

I kept thinking all day long today I wish I had a genie in the bottle to grant me 1 wish. I kept thinking all day long today that if there was a god, can he help me bring the family back together and make us happy again? 

How can I get over this when I see my kids every weekend? How can I get over this when I have to do major events with my STBXW? I am not deriving strength from the kids. Instead I get incredibly depressed (underneath) and it hurts really bad.


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

Shoulda coulda woulda. You can't change the past. You are where you are in life right now. Today. Let go of yesterday. You think you should've waited to move out. Okay. You didn't. Can you go back and change that? No. So why dwell on it? It's done.

I haven't been in your shoes. I can't say anything that will make what you feel magically disappear. As much as she needs to "find herself" - so do you. Do you even feel like you have an individual identity apart from her and the kids? Who are you? For whatever reason, she needs to be away from you right now. Accept that. And use this time to work on you. That's what the focus should be. Not on her, what she's doing, why she did this, etc. You can't just get over any of this. Working on becoming a happier you is what will help. Once you find your own self-worth, it will get easier. But only you can do this. The first step is the hardest. Decide when you're ready to take it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead201 said:


> It's all set. I pick them up at 1pm HKT.
> 
> I screwed up though. I failed the 180. Get the 2x4s out. I started talking about the marriage, wanting to reconcile and wanting to come home.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Conrad - I gotta print the picture. I also will make it my desktop wallpaper. I slipped up a little this weekend by (a) trying to avoid the STBXW and (b) asking to come home. Despite these little slip ups, been fairly smooth. Just very depressed now. No more slipups.

Hi SVL - Thanks for the tough love. 

What exactly is self worth? That worth has been primarily defined by my family and marriage for the past 10 years and that worth is now gone. I have to rebuild it again. Not a fun task. 

How can I work on being a happier me? IC? Doing the things that I love? Reigniting the hobbies that I once had? Being a bachelor? 

In a sense I was happier when I lived at home with the kids. That is gone now. 

What exactly "is" the first step? Letting go and accepting the situation?


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

The first step is acceptance, yes. Which you clearly haven't done yet. You're still thinking this is just a bad dream. This is real. It's happening. Say to yourself, "I don't want this, I don't like what is happening, but crap...it's happening." And believe it. Don't start thinking - if I had done this, if her family wasn't so toxic then it would be okay, if I hadn't moved out it could've been different, etc. etc. Stop all that. Think instead - this is where I am today. Stop living in all the decisions made in the past.

The problem is exactly in what you are asking in regards to your self-worth. You have to find that. Others can't do it for you. If you didn't have a wife and kids, what would you be doing? What things do you enjoy? What things satisfy you as a person?

I would definitely continue with the IC. But what about the voids of time between work and IC? You have to occupy your time and stay busy. Downtime is the worst. It lets your mind wander. Physical activity is top choice for me because it releases endorphins. I've forced myself to go for a run, hop on my bike, or hit the gym and have never regretted it. It's like a natural high. Doing positive, healthy things that fulfil you will not only help take your mind off the what-ifs, but you'll also find that you can lead a happy and satisfying life without her if that's what ends up happening. You had a life before you met her. If things don't work out with her, you will have a life again. But you have to create it for yourself. She's living her life without you it seems. Why wouldn't you want to do the same?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

SVL - thanks. I lead a fairly active lifestyle. I run, bike, sail. Exercise doesn't help. The IC recommends a batting cage. I try to keep the downtime to a minimum. 

I think I did the right thing. Her family is toxic. I was a doormat. My needs were not being met. Nothing was changing. I had no choice but to leave. I am now here in this situation and my first priority is to heal. I need to somehow convince myself once and for all that this is the right thing for me and vow never to go back to that crazy dance. 

She obviously is living her life without me. She is "finding herself" which is another term for WAW IMHO. She is clearly busy being an independent woman without the need of a "man." I send child support. She is now having her cake and eating too. That really hurts.


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

That is the first sliver of strength I have seen from you. Hold onto that!! Print out the second paragraph of what you just wrote and keep it in your wallet. Take it out whenever you're feeling down. I mean it. Your needs were not being met. Your first priority is to heal. As much as she doesn't need a man, you don't need a woman. Not a woman like that anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks SVL. Unfortunately this morning when I violated the rules of the 180, I told her to hold off on selling the house. I had to violate the 180 again tonight because I don't want her to hold off on selling the house. I sent her a courteous note. Get the 2x4s out. Here's the note. I will be going dark after this.

<snip>

Sorry to bother you.

I have been extremely hurt by so many things you have done to me. Ialso emphatically apologize for the hurtful things I have done to you. I am very sorry. I genuinely wish I could have turned back the clockand make things right so we do not have to go through what we are going through now.

I think it is a good thing that you spend some time to "find yourself." You are very independent now and I am very proud of you.But it deeply hurts me to know that statement usually means that you are no longer willing to work on our relationship and you want to "find" somebody else. I have always wanted to work on our relationship because you are the love of my life. But I can't wait around for you because it is very painful in doing so. I can't spend my life wondering whether or not we'll ever get back together. I need to move on with my life. The flat that we own together is preventing me from moving on.

I would appreciate it if you continue on selling XXX. I am sorry for giving you mixed signals this morning when I said hold off on selling. I am sorry that I have to do this to you and the kids. But I don't think it is fair for us to jointly own property knowing full well the marriage is pretty much over and you are intent on moving on. I apologize for bothering you and I apologize for upsetting you.

I will always be cordial and courteous to you. I will always be happy to take care of the kids any time you want. I just would appreciate it if you could do this for me and put the flat on the market.


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

*shakes head*

Oh, box....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I'm done. I want to make things clear. I don't want to her live in a house that I own when she has no intention of reconciling.


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

All you would have had to say in that case was:

"I apologize for any confusion I caused due to my vacillation regarding selling the flat. I will be contacting a realtor and will be having it put up for sale. I will keep you informed of any prospective buyers so you have ample time to locate other living arrangements for yourself and the children."

What you wrote reminded me so much of the things my STBXH has written to me. And every time he did it just pi$$ed me off. 

Keep it business. No feelings. Just focus on the tangibles - marital assets and the children. Think of her as a business associate now and nothing more. Don't give her the satisfaction.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks SVL. Your wording is more appropriate. It's water under the bridge though.

I will be keeping my mouth shut from here on and doing the 180. Things should hopefully be clear to her now. I will be really trying hard to move on from this nightmare.


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

Yep, just use it as a lesson for the future. And remember...when you're having a tough go of it, come here. There's no better sanctuary than a bunch of strangers who understand exactly how you're feeling and won't judge you for any of it. This site has been my saving grace. Let it be yours, too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

This site is already my saving grace. This is the best message board I have ever experienced. I have nothing but loads of gratitude for everybody on here. Thanks.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead201 said:


> Sorry to bother you.
> 
> I have been extremely hurt by so many things you have done to me. Ialso emphatically apologize for the hurtful things I have done to you. I am very sorry. I genuinely wish I could have turned back the clockand make things right so we do not have to go through what we are going through now.
> 
> ...












Box,

Just stop it.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I am really sick tonight. I can't sleep. I am having really bad suicidal thoughts.


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## our vision shattered (May 25, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Box,
> 
> Just stop it.


Conrad, you absolutely crack me up, your not mean but you keep it very real, you are a man I'd like to get to know, your advice stings sometimes but I truly think you have a real compassion for people, what's your career in the real world, any ways thank you 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## our vision shattered (May 25, 2012)

boxhead201 said:


> I am really sick tonight. I can't sleep. I am having really bad suicidal thoughts.


I had many of those thoughts, it got so bad I called my dr & she helped soooo much, remember the first 2 months are the hardest but you need to give this time, she's stuck in her fog, be polite, see you kids, it's not there fault, and never let a woman ever cost you your life, this will pass, right now your living in your pass, live in the know & you'll never know the future untill it gets here. I care for you bro & I think all of us has had those same thoughts, dude pm me & I'll talk you down from any emotional lows, I can't count how many people on this board have been so real, so kind, so understanding no matter what gender, I truly live each & every one of them for helping me with my life, I'd love a reunion with everybody that's helped me & have a toast about our new lives
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

our vision shattered said:


> Conrad, you absolutely crack me up, your not mean but you keep it very real, you are a man I'd like to get to know, your advice stings sometimes but I truly think you have a real compassion for people, what's your career in the real world, any ways thank you
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OVS,

I'm a pharmacist. So, I'm a healer by nature.

Shocking how I really had to heal myself first to become effective.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi guys

Sorry for the scare. I'm ok. Very sick. Up all night. I am forcing myself to go sailing today. Good wind. Hopefully I'll feel Better. What going thru my mind now is divorce attorney.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

boxhead201 said:


> Hi guys
> 
> Sorry for the scare. I'm ok. Very sick. Up all night. I am forcing myself to go sailing today. Good wind. Hopefully I'll feel Better. What going thru my mind now is divorce attorney.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Know that the dark times will pass, and suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. 

You know this.


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

Box, I just wanted to let you know I am thinking of you today. Focus on getting through one minute or one hour at a time. Post here no matter what you feel, and remember that you are not alone. Right now there are many thousands (millions?) of newly widowed, separated and divorced people in this world...and you are one of the luckiest ones because you have found a resource that will not just help you through but help you truly grow into a better person with a brighter future than you probably think possible right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Guys;

Thanks. Today was very hard and last night was hard. The depression is intense. Really intense. Undescribably intense. I have a pain in my stomach that just won't go away. I am having a very hard time. Last night I could not sleep at all. I slept for 20 minutes but woke up from nightmares of my wife sleeping with other men. I've had this dream multiple times. Is this dream a sign of healing? Today I was barely able to operate. I am a strong athletic man who has been reduced to a blubbering pile. How embarrassing. How long will this depression last?

I went sailing. The wind was good. I brought my wedding ring and sailed downwind out to the bay. I cried for a bit and then I threw my wedding ring into the water, cried some more and sailed away. I hope I can mark this as a point where I "let go."

For some odd reason, my honeymoon came to mind today. We spent it with the in-laws. I remember when we were driving to the destination, we had to stop every few minutes so they could either eat or take a pee. I should have taken this as a bad sign then.

I am considering hiring a divorce attorney next week. I dunno if I should do that. Not because of reconciliation, but because of cost. In HK, I can get a real cheap divorce if I wait a year. The problem is the pain is agonizing and I want to end it. Do I shell out mucho dinero to an attorney now to get it over with, or do I wait it out for a year?

Also, I am curious. I had a good Thursday/Friday. And then when I saw my kids, I went into a tailspin. Shouldn't I derive strength from my kids? How come I am not? How come all the bad things come out after I see my kids?

Thanks for your support. Esp. OVS, SVL, Conrad, CanGuy, MyselfAgain. I'm going to go and try to eat.


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

Are you on any depression medication?

And no...I don't think it's appropriate to derive strength from your kids. That kind of pressure cannot be put on them. You have to be the source of strength for them. 

They are a reminder of the love you and your wife made. They bonded you in a way that only two people who have had children together can be bonded. And they will always be a reminder of what used to be. People sometimes say stupid things to you because they don't know what else to say...an acquaintance who learned of my divorce gasped and said, "I bet you wish you could go back in time and get all that time back." Ummmm....no. I have a lot of wishes, but that's not one of them. You could have a child with just about anyone. But I could never have the son I have with anyone else. And I want him. Just as the special little person he is. I wouldn't take any path that led me anywhere but to my son. Regardless of how it's turned out.

You need to derive your strength from yourself. The more you look for answers outside of yourself, the more you look for sources of strength outside of yourself, the more you are putting off true healing. It hasn't clicked in you yet. You haven't quite got it yet. But you will. You will find the strength within yourself when you are ready to. But right now you are still holding on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

> I went sailing. The wind was good. I brought my wedding ring and sailed downwind out to the bay. I cried for a bit and then I threw my wedding ring into the water, cried some more and sailed away. I hope I can mark this as a point where I "let go."


BH, letting go is not an action, but a process. When you truly let go, you'll feel it.

I agree with SVL... your strength needs to come from within. This is part of not *depending* on anyone else for your happiness, strength, sense of self, etc. It's part of true growth.

Unfortunately, you still have a rough road ahead of you with painful times. Fortunately, this does get better and will not last forever. 

Consider yourself in training for a better you. As the saying goes, no pain no gain, and this is especially true for us nice guys. When your life and self are shaken to the core it is tough to rebuild, but it is very rewarding.

There are many of us here on TAM who, like you, made their first post in an extremely sad and distressed frame of mind. Then, as the weeks went by, we all experienced growth - it was work and something we earned through work, support, tough love, reflection and time.

You will too. I know this doesn't make things easier now, but you will get to a better place.

Fast forward 7.5 months, and I am getting to know a wonderful woman. She is smart, fun, funny, intelligent... I could go on, but let's just say I feel she's a better fit for me than any woman I have ever met in my life. Who knows how this will all unfold, but let me tell you, it's amazing and not something I would ever have imagined back in December.

To be clear, I am not suggesting I or you need someone new to feel better. On the contrary, I worked on myself and slowly got to the point where I rebuilt myself, better than ever. That's a prerequisite here. 

So, keep working away, venting and doing all of the good things your doing. When you need to cry, cry... let it out. Slowly but surely, you'll get you groove back. No, let me rephrase that... it's more like a groove you never knew you had. It's pretty damn cool.


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## our vision shattered (May 25, 2012)

boxhead201 said:


> Hi Guys;
> 
> Thanks. Today was very hard and last night was hard. The depression is intense. Really intense. Undescribably intense. I have a pain in my stomach that just won't go away. I am having a very hard time. Last night I could not sleep at all. I slept for 20 minutes but woke up from nightmares of my wife sleeping with other men. I've had this dream multiple times. Is this dream a sign of healing? Today I was barely able to operate. I am a strong athletic man who has been reduced to a blubbering pile. How embarrassing. How long will this depression last?
> 
> ...


Hey box, checking up on you, you are going to have different stages in all of this, find your peace & just try to relax, the pain lessons in TIME, don't do anything rash, I know you want to move on but I also hear reconciliation. Right now u can't make a rational decision so you shouldn't make to many rash ones, my advice is get stronger, time will determine your outcome, now work on healing, spend as much time with your kids, it'll help. If after 1 year & you have no hope of recon then get your divorce, spend this time to heal get strong & focus on you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

OVS is right on, and he just got through a particularly difficult beginning, like you. I held my breath waiting for his diet to settle, and it has...yours will too. Please let us know how you are doing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## our vision shattered (May 25, 2012)

horrible, horrible, life changing for sure, read my story, see my torment, i shunned my kids for a few weeks because i had to, my oldest 2 daughters checked on me every day, ive lost over 30 lbs in 9 weeks, although not the right way but stocked, lots of looks on a ringless finger. wont do anything but it helps my self esteem  relax my friend i now leaned on my kids, my 17 yr old moved in with me & 14 yr son old is staying with me, my 18 yr old lives with her boyfriend  but is here every day to check on me, whats hurts right now is my step son who've i've rasied since he was a year & a half old, barely say's anything to me. sad his dad was in prison for 9 yrs & i've always been daddy, i'm just giving him loving texts every once in a while & giving him time. box this HARD !!!!!!!!! but we are here for you, seriously look at my first thread & read. see where i've made it to so far. it's a journey through hell, you'll meet the real you, get to know him, trust me, ive looked at myself hard & realize i really like my self, im in ic for the parts i don't like, my wife used to say i would be the dream man for any woman out there, thats why she always showed extreme jealousy. i'm here my friend, just keep posting your emotions, i use this as my journel.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi All;

Thanks. No rash decisions (but I wonder if I should really wait on the divorce). Radio silence. I am seriously considering meds. My diet and exercise are fairly normal. I force myself to be physically healthy. I think I lost a little weight because my belts are loose. Sleep is slowly returning to normal.

One thing that occurred to me is that my daily life really hasn't changed all that much. My daily groove is slowly returning. I am still doing the same things as I was before. I never could really get the STBXW agree with me on things I wanted to do, so most of the time I spent by myself exploring HK. I essentially have already been alone for quite some time now. Long ago, even before my marriage, I learned it was ok to be alone when exploring places. I never could get any of my friends to go on treks with me - so I just ended up doing them alone. I would spend days going 60 miles into deep wilderness in my home, Santa Barbara, California. I went through college alone (I was the old man with the kids). I have been supporting myself since I was 17. I lived life alone before I met the STBXW and I will do so again. Same with HK. I pretty much do everything alone now. I am even more alone now because I am immersed in a foreign culture and don't see my family anymore at night. I will soon be traveling alone exploring China and asia. I don't know if the aloneness/self-sufficiency I already experienced contributes to my inner strength. 

So what does working on myself actually entail? Doing the 180. Getting the groove back. Going to IC. Normal diet and exercise. Keeping really busy. Time. Dealing with the childhood anger issues. Are there other things I should be doing as part of my recovery?



> letting go is not an action, but a process. When you truly let go, you'll feel it.


Is one part of the process of letting go is not trying to get back the things that you gave? e.g. I bought her a house and half a car. Does that mean I have to forget about trying to get the money for that back? Is another part of the process of letting go is jealousy of her bringing men into our matrimonial home? How about the dreams? I have dreams of my STBXW with other men. When those dreams subside is that letting go as well? Is letting go ultimately forgiving her? Forgiving her is going to a tough road to follow. 

Hi OVS - I will read your threads. I use TAM as my journal as well.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Went to the IC tonight. I decided that filing for divorce will help bring closure. It will also bring a bit of control to financial anxieties that I feel ... namely selling the house.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

The ball is rolling. Divorce paperwork submitted to the court. First court date September 12.

It was an interesting experience doing the paperwork. The family court was bustling with activity; many people getting divorces. I wonder how many of them went through the same thing I am going through. I wonder how many of them post on TAM.

I was on an emotional high last night and this morning. Crashing out a little bit now. OCD coming back a little.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

boxhead201 said:


> The ball is rolling. Divorce paperwork submitted to the court. First court date September 12.
> 
> It was an interesting experience doing the paperwork. The family court was bustling with activity; many people getting divorces. I wonder how many of them went through the same thing I am going through. I wonder how many of them post on TAM.
> 
> I was on an emotional high last night and this morning. Crashing out a little bit now. OCD coming back a little.


Good for you! With the ball in motion you'll feel like you're doing something, and that is a good thing. No sense spinning your wheels.

The crashes and OCD are part of the process. It greatly improves over time.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks for the support Canguy.

Hi Guys -

On a low this morning. Filing the D has created anxiety for me because I will most likely lose half of my assets (and then some).


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead201 said:


> Hi Guys -
> 
> On an emotional low this morning. Filing the D has created anxiety for me because I will most likely lose half of my assets.


If it didn't hurt, you likely would never learn.

None of us would.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

Keep your head up and stay strong. I've been following your posts and it looks like your doing much better. Stay positive and try not to overthink everything. Easier said then done In know. That's my problem for sure though.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks Conrad; jdlash;

I've had my ups and downs. Some days are better. Today is not one of them. Today I need to come to terms with this new anxiety. The IC says that when I have an anxiety I need to have a plan. Well, the anxiety is, I am going to lose half of my $$. I am not sure what plan I can come up for that. Live under a bridge? I know it's not the end of the world. How can I come to terms with this anxiety and let it go?


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I just spoke with an attorney to mitigate my anxiety. He thinks I went about the filing all wrong that could result in a costly legal battle. He advised me to contact my STBXW in order to make sure she does not go nuts when she gets the petition for divorce. I wrote this to her -



> I filed for a petition for divorce yesterday with the help of the court. In hindsight I should have discussed terms and conditions with you first before filing. I would appreciate it if we could discuss this before you file a response.


I just made a mess of things. Now my OCD is going nuts. Not a good day.


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

She likely will go nuts. I did when I got served. It's a gut-reaction. Things were pretty nasty for a while right after he had served me, but eventually they calmed down. We're still not on the best terms, but we are going to try to work out as much as possible (division of marital assets, custody arrangements) between ourselves because we both know how expensive this will get otherwise. 

Once she's served, let her react (at least you gave her a head's up - I didn't get the courtesy of that), don't react to her reaction, and give it a little time. Her initial feelings directly after being served will eventually subside. And you never know...maybe she'll be happy that you're giving her what she seems to want.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

The problem is, the attorney says the paperwork I filed is not good. He said I will have a hard time proving my compliants which will likely turn into a costly legal battle. He said I should the discuss the complaints with her and if she does not agree with them, withdraw the petition and wait a year. After I wait a year it is easier to divorce.


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

Can't you just say to her, once she receives the petition, "look, these are the things the attorney came up with. Obviously we'll need to discuss them, and come up with reasonable changes the both of us can agree upon. Could you send me your changes, and if agreeable to both of us, I'll forward them onto the attorney so that the petition can be revised? I would also like for us to consult with a mediator for the changes we can't find middle ground on."

Would she be open to that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I had to break the silence and call the STBXW. I smoothed it over and told her about the divorce. I sent her an e-mail summarizing our conversation:



> Thanks for taking my call. Sorry to blindside you with the divorce. As discussed, my primary goal is to work out our divorce without the use of attorneys. That being said, I will be filing an amended petition next week that states:
> 
> (a) I am requesting a divorce on the grounds of irreconciable differences.
> (b) I will remove all financial requests for you to refund the car to me and for you to sell the house. It is in my best interest for you and the kids to stay put.
> ...


 I feel better now. I have to move on with my life. I am not going to sit around waiting for her to make up her mind. I don't want to be in seperation limbo forever. Divorce is the only way to get me to move on and get over this nightmare quickly.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

Great letter. To the point.

I think that divorce will definitely be a mental hurdle to climb over, and no doubt it will be a significant event. The external events, such as agreements, papers, finances are one thing, but I'm sure you're aware that the internal struggles are important to face head on and deal with. Been there.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I am dealing with thAt hurdle now. It hurts bad. The 2% is pulling me hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Guys;

Today was really rough. Really bad depression all day. I went to a couseling seminar talking about Bowen theory. During the whole time I tuned out. All I head was Charlie Brown's parents talking. I went to IC tonight and lost it. 

The marriage is a cancer now and I have to act quickly to kill it, or it will consume me and destroy me. Am going to continue with the divorce. Need to refile some paperwork because attorney told me it was screwed up. Been thinking all day about how to reword the petition. Think I am going to get a lawyer to help.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

Sorry to hear you're having such a hard time, but I think it's actually good that you're are feeling this pain... as I and others on TAM can attest to, you have to walk through hell to get the other side. Keep walkin'.

As someone who's been there, you will achieve growth both though and despite the pain. And it does get easier. Really. 

You're doing a great job holding on. Keep at it!


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

You're going to hurt for a long time. But right now you are like a piece of soft iron beong heated up in the furnace. The fire will burn away all the impurities and slag and when you come through the other end.... You will be steel. Hard and resilient.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks guys. Getting prepared for a typhoon to hit hong kong.

Both days I have been attending a marriage therapy conference. Things to do when your marriage is in trouble. I was a computer engineer in a sea of social workers. I was the odd man out. Too bad I can't apply these techniques to my current marriage. I have to save them for future reference.

Been feeling a terrible pain deep in the pit of my stomach for the past couple of days. I think it is depression. I literally feel like I am walking thru hell now. I am impatient. How can I make the walk shorter? How can I get this horrible feeling to subside? One way IMHO is filing divorce now rather than later. 

Another thing I have been trying to stop is wondering about my wife. I wonder if she is having an EA. It sounds like she is not experiencing the same pain I am. It sounds like life is wonderful wihout me. Why should I care? How can I let go of caring? How can I let go of a woman who doesn't want to be with me?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

> Thanks guys. Getting prepared for a typhoon to hit hong kong.


Hope it's nothing too serious and be safe.



> Been feeling a terrible pain deep in the pit of my stomach for the past couple of days. I think it is depression. I literally feel like I am walking thru hell now. *I am impatient. How can I make the walk shorter? How can I get this horrible feeling to subside? * One way IMHO is filing divorce now rather than later.


It's going to take the time it's going to take. There is no way to fast-track this. That said, applying the strategies we've been talking about such as IC, exercise, keeping busy... this will all help you cope. The hard emotional work you're doing will eventually make you stronger, but that will take time. I like bandit's statement. I agree... after you take the time it's going to take, heal and grow, you will be surprised at how much stronger you will feel. My friend often comment at how much better I look and sound, and they look at me differently as well. I feel their respect.



> Another thing I have been trying to stop is wondering about my wife. I wonder if she is having an EA. * It sounds like she is not experiencing the same pain I am. It sounds like life is wonderful wihout me. Why should I care? How can I let go of caring? How can I let go of a woman who doesn't want to be with me?*


Man, I felt the exact same way. It took me 3.5 months to grieve. During the next two I was getting stronger and less sad, but I still did not know how to let go. It was very frustrating at times. 

I would suggest you focus on yourself. You and your kids are what matters here. Frankly, unless it had an effect on your kids, what she does with her life is none of your business now, and vice-versa. Letting go is a process. As you get stronger you'll feel more self-confidence and have more self-respect... two things which made me feel good about myself as an individual. That served to help me think more positively about MY future, and the possibilities that were opening up. In time, I became more excited about the future and started to let go of the past. The caring you're referring to is all part of the past, and you will let go eventually. In my experience, I discovered this was something I could not rush. It was frustrating, but you will have to let this happen.

By the way, are you familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs? In my experience, I felt I was climbing up this ladder. It was difficult, but I can tell you that the view from the top is amazing.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

OMFG the depression is insane tonight. I sat in a park for 2 hours doing absolutely nothing. I can't even listen to my iPod. I feel like the walking dead. I am forcing myself to eat. I am sorry to whine. I have nobody to talk to. I am surrounded by a zillion people but I have nobody to talk to except you guys.

I looked at the hierarchy. I am sorted confused by it. Perhaps it is because I can't think now. All I see on the hierarchy is sex and excretion. I haven't had sex in years. All I do is excrete out of every oriface.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

boxhead201 said:


> OMFG the depression is insane tonight. I sat in a park for 2 hours doing absolutely nothing. I can't even listen to my iPod. I feel like the walking dead. I am forcing myself to eat. I am sorry to whine. I have nobody to talk to. I am surrounded by a zillion people but I have nobody to talk to except you guys.
> 
> I looked at the hierarchy. I am sorted confused by it. Perhaps it is because I can't think now.


Several of us have been there. We're here for you, but I would recommend you find someone to speak with. Have you looked for any support groups in your area? I would strongly recommend you do.

The hierarchy is Maslow's take on needs from the basic ones we need for survival (bottom) to the the more evolved levels.

Have you been out for your run today?


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I will look into support groups. Any idea what sort of support group I should look for? I was thinking AA, but would prefer something more appropriate. I am thinking of a class if I come up empty handed on the support group route - like what you took (spanish).

I haven't run in a couple of days because I have been at a marriage conference. I did walk a bit yesterday and today and broke a bit of a sweat, but it was no cardio like the runs I do. There is a typhoon coming to HK now. Despite the typhoon I will go out and get exercise tomorrow. The typhoon makes things more interesting.

It appears I am barely at the "safety" level of the heirarchy and will be there for some time.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I just found out. She's having an EA.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead201 said:


> I just found out. She's having an EA.


Does this surprise you?


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

It immensily hurts. He behavoir makes sense now. I am very angry.


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

How did you find out?

I know mine is having an EA (probably PA by now) but she won't let me know about that for several reasons.

1. She's worried about my reaction

2. She's probably concerned the divorce would go a lot ****tier for her.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I want to cancel the divorce. She is not entitled to half my earnings.

I got forwarded an e-mail of a love poem for a guy with pictures.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

As much as it hurts, better you know.

I am very sorry.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I was up all night confronting the stbxw on the affair. Not a good feeling. I probably drove her into his arms.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I was up all night confronting the stbxw on the affair. Not a good feeling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

Guessing she reasoned it until you were blue in the face?

I know mine is seeing someone, haven't confronted her or said jack squat about it ..


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Fri night and all day saturday was hell. It turns out her affair was an emotional one that the guy didn't even know about (?). I dunno if I believe that story. She was writing love letters to him, but he did not know about it. To me that is an affair. She was unfaithful and cannot be trusted anymore. I think she is trying to find numb herself. Who knows what else has been going on without my knowledge. This incident shows me that she can't be trusted; she is now unfaithful.

Today was ok - went sailing and bicycling. Not much depression today. For some reason, I feel a little freer. The "affair" in some way made it easier for me to let go of her today.

Holiday tomorrow. I will be sure to keep busy to keep the depression away.

My main question for today was whether or not to continue the divorce. I came up with 5 reasons for divorcing her, and 3 reasons against divorcing her. I am going to continue with the divorce even though I don't want to. The ball is already rolling and I have many more reasons for the divorce rather than against. So I will continue.

Reasons for divorce:

1. She treated me like crap for years. I was a doormat.
2. I was abandoned when the going got rough.
3. Unfaithful.
4. Turned into a jesus freak.
5. Don't want to be in reconciliation limbo.

Reasons against divorce:

1. Reconciliation.
2. Will hurt the kids.
3. Finances will be split sooner rather than later.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

boxhead201 said:


> My main question for today was whether or not to continue the divorce. I came up with 7 reasons for divorcing her, and 2 reasons against divorcing her. I am going to continue with the divorce even though I don't want to. The ball is already rolling and I have many more reasons for the divorce rather than against. So I will continue.


In some cases, some marriages can survive affairs. I am not an expert on this, as my ex simply walked away, at least to my knowledge. Trust is of paramount importance to me, and once violated like that, personally speaking I'm not sure I could continue a relationship after something serious.

I'm not sure of your reasons for wanting a divorce, and the reasons for staying married. Just be wary of the practical reasons, and focus on your fulfilment and if this is truly the woman you would want to spend the rest of your life with. You already know if you do or not, despite the cloudy judgment, OCD and pain. I did. 

As much as it hurt, as much as I wanted her back, I realized I wanted moments back, temporary feelings, illusions and fantasy. I wanted that I'd hoped my marriage could have been, but not what it was. There is a difference.

Based on what you've shared, I think you're more grounded than you might feel. You're doing many right things to help yourself move forward. Keep it up.



> Not much depression today. For some reason, I feel a little freer.


That's a sign of things to come, my friend. As for the feeling of freedom, you ain't seen nothing' yet.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks Canguy;

I don't know if I feel grounded. Can you elaborate? I am still having bad days. Fri/Sat was no exception. I need to get Conrad to get the 2x4s out.

One other thing I need to mention is that I have to go to a voice only policy with her. It turns out that she was taking my texts and e-mails and forwarding them to all of her friends with snide comments about me. I don't want to give her the opportunity to do that again, so I am going to go voice here on out (and hopefully be more faithful to the 180).

Another thing that I am going to do (and I usually do on Sundays anyways) is leave all electronics at home. So that means I can't send texts or emails during the day. It prevents me from OCDing because the electronics are unavailable.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Sailing today. FYI.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

> I don't know if I feel grounded. Can you elaborate? I am still having bad days. Fri/Sat was no exception. I need to get Conrad to get the 2x4s out.


Maybe "grounded" was not the best choice of words. I meant to say you're doing a good job being part of your solution, with the actions you're taking to pull yourself out of this emotional rut. Too many TAM people, including myself, spun their wheels for too long before doing so. 



> Another thing that I am going to do (and I usually do on Sundays anyways) is leave all electronics at home. So that means I can't send texts or emails during the day. It prevents me from OCDing because the electronics are unavailable.


If you can't prevent yourself from OCDing, then that's a wise move. That would an example of being part of your solution.

Beautiful pic you posted, by the way!


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I'm in hate mode this morning. I am getting the divorce reasons lined up for my meeting with the attorney tomorrow.

(a) Mean and cruel.
(b) Evicted me through behavoir.
(c) Abandoned me in my time of need.
(d) Unfaithful to me.
(e) Will do nothing to help fix our marriage.

OCDing. Gotta get outside.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Did a 40k mountain bike ride today (pic below). The weather was beautiful, but I was plagued with thoughts about the STBXW. She was whirling around my head the whole day. I forced myself to stay out. I am going to ask the same question again and again of TAM:

1. Why do I want to be with somebody I hate? How can I get over the fantasy world?
2. I have not let go. I am still trying to bargain. How can I let go?

I got a text from her where she said she wants to do marriage counseling with me, but she has not told me to stop the divorce, and she said no reconciliation even with counseling. She is being a little vague and I don't want to be led on. What's the point of doing counseling with her and still going through the divorce? To me there isn't a point. Either I stop the divorce and do counseling with her, or continue the divorce and not bother with counseling with her. I am still going to see the IC for myself either way. Also I am going to continue the divorce and not do marriage counseling with her because there is no point.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

She sent me a long text on how I stabbed her through the heart by exposing her EA. She stabbed me in the heart 20x and slowly twisted the blades with her behavoir. She told me she only wants to do MC for the kids but still wants to be separated. She wants to do MC without the promise of reconciliation.

She called told me last night that she wanted to do MC, but emphatically refused to ask me to stay the divorce. She said the divorce is my deal. To me, if she asks me to stay the divorce then that means she is really into MC. On the other hand if she doesn't want to ask me to stay the divorce, then it shows me that she was not really into MC. I pressed the issue a bit and she still emphatically refused to say anything about the divorce. I need to be clear on the divorce. I ended up telling her to F off. 

She called me back 20 minutes later and halfheartedly asked for me to stop the divorce. I did not want to press the issue - that was good enough for me. Question: Is me asking for her to say this inappropriate? It's an important gesture for me that shows she is really into MC.

I am going down to the courts today to withdraw my petition. I hope this is not a mistake. I will see how MC goes while at the same time doing IC for myself. I am concerned that going to MC with her is going to prolong the pain.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

My instinct tells me that you need to ask her to not contact you for a week first. Setup a MC meeting for a week or so out and tell her you need to go NC for that time to think. You have so much anger that your going to set yourself back even if you do decide you want to fix the marriage. You don't have to decide to go to MC, but why show her your cards all the time. Your playing a horrible hand of poker with your cards laid right out in front of your opponent. 

Back off and find yourself. You have to realize you can be happy with her or without her. She can't make your life happy. You have to do that yourself.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi JD;

Thanks. I am not that great of a poker player. The cards are already out. I cannot pull them back. 

One of the things I always wanted is to do MC with her. I am happy that she finally relented and is willing to do this. Unfortunately I forced her hand by filing a divorce and exposing an EA. I want to see how MC goes for a bit before making any further decisions. If not very well then I will reassess then. I think MC is important because (a) we haven't done it and (b) it's important for the kids. She wants to start MC this week. Fine by me, but the tact I need to take is "take it easy."

During this time I will have to come up with a new hand and play it better. 

You are right that happiness needs to come within and not from her. While doing MC and IC that is something I am going to be working on personally. Therefore if MC does not work out it will soften the blow a bit.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

You were right for exposing the EA. Your not ok with it and why would you be. I'm just saying that you will never be happy and your marriage holds no chance if you continue to blow up. Keep focusing on yourself more then anything and try to find that inner confidence and happiness that you deserve! It takes practice. Trust me I know. I'm not always great at it either.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Guys - 

I just want to clarify some badness on my part.

I found out about the EA because I had access to her e-mail account. I found out that she was writing love poems to one of her mother's doctors. I feel very bad because I had access to her e-mail account to find this out. I knew she was up to something and I was determined to find it, albeit in a bad way.

I no longer have access to her e-mail accounts as she changed the passwords. I am relieved because I can no longer OCD on her accounts. I am also relieved because I found the proof I was looking for.

Not a good thing I did.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

STOP blaming yourself. I don't care if you had to hire an investigator, she was in the wrong. Until you stop blaming yourself you get nowhere.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Well, actually I don't feel guilty. I'm not really blaming myself. I just told you guys that for the sake of full disclosure. Is it bad not to feel guilty? You are saying no.

"The ends justify the means." ?

<snip>

just got back from the law courts. In order to withdraw the divorce the STBXW needs to be present. So if she really wants me to withdraw the case, I need her to come down there with me. I am going to let this issue slide until the next time I talk to her.


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## ImStillHere (Apr 25, 2012)

jdlash said:


> My instinct tells me that you need to ask her to not contact you for a week first. Setup a MC meeting for a week or so out and tell her you need to go NC for that time to think. You have so much anger that your going to set yourself back even if you do decide you want to fix the marriage.





jdlash said:


> Back off and find yourself. You have to realize you can be happy with her or without her. She can't make your life happy. You have to do that yourself.


:iagree:


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Just talked to the IC. The STBXW doesn't want to do MC, but just IC with both of us in the room. I said no deal. I am inclined to let the D continue.

I am disappointed. I knew it was too good to be true. Waves of emotion of going through me now. I am not going to play by her terms.

Earlier today I contacted the atty and told him that I will not be meeting him. Now I just contacted him again and said I need to meet him. I look like an idiot.

I told the IC that I don't want to see the STBXW like this and I will be continuing the divorce.

What a rollercoaster. Supertramp - Hide In Your Shell

<snip>

I am totally pissed. The stbxw is ****ing with me. I am not going to play her games. The divorce is on and if she calls all I am going to say is "get a lawyer" and "don't ever call me again.". I can't take this bull****. I need to recover and get over this *****. I will be more happy without her.

Perhaps my anger is setting me back. I am just tired of getting ****ed with. I am not going to be led on. It's better for me to be free of these games rather than try to play them anymore.

Genesis - Say it's alright Joe

<snip>

If she call, this is what I am going to say...
1. I sent child support for this month. I sent a little too much. I will be sending less next month.
2. Can't stop divorce by myself. Both of us have to do it together.
3. I decided to continue divorce. Expect to see an amended petition in the mail soon.
4. I think you need to hire an attorney.
5. I would appreciate it if you never contact me again. You are hurting me exertions you do so.
6. See you in court in September. Goodbye.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

OCDing real bad tonight. To mitigate the effects of OCD I did the following:

1. I have a prepay cell phone. I never really use it anyway. I cutup the sim card.
2. I deleted my e-mail account.

Now I am incognito - no contact.


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## Conrad&Janie (Jul 2, 2012)

Why are you paying at all?


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Good point. Why am I paying at all. Well, I'm not anymore. I need to mitigate the OCD that I am experiencing. I sit and wait by the cell phone for a call/text. I check my e-mail constantly hoping for a scrap. I can't do that. It is driving me crazy.


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## our vision shattered (May 25, 2012)

boxhead, i know that feeling all to well, constantly needing to be by any means of communication, i'm getting better with it but i really know how your feeling, try to get over the anger a little, find something in your day to smile & appreciate. i care bro, hang in there


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks OVS.

Actually without my cell phone and without a personal e-mail account it is kinda liberating. I don't have to OCD on these anymore. Now I am OCDing on my work phone and work e-mail, but I can't do that when I am away from the office.

I never really was into the cell phone thing. In Hong Kong, *everybody* has a cell phone. Whenever somebody would ask me if I had a cell phone, I said no. They would give me the "deer in the headlights" look. I am committing heresy in Hong Kong by not having a cell phone.


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## our vision shattered (May 25, 2012)

how long are you in hong kong for


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I am originally from Santa Barbara, California. Spent 5 years in the SF Bay Area, another 5 years in NYC, and then 4 years in HK. I moved the family to HK so the STBXW could be close to the MIL. That was a mistake. When we came back to HK, the STBXW changed and our relationship nosedived.

<snip>

I am hopefully truly going NC now. I have to do it because talking with her hurts too much. Unfortunately I have to do this at the expense of hurting the kids too.

<snip>

I just read MyselfAgain's post in OVS's thread. It resonated with me. I am full of hate and anger right now. The hate and anger isn't as strong as it was, but it is still there. It is a major motivator for me filing the D. In order to move on I have to let go of this hate and anger. I can I let it go? How can I aim for indifference?

<snip>

Been reading the "coping with infidelity section" of this board. Yesterday I mailed the child support payment to my STBXW. I gave her a little more money than normal. After reading the infidelity section of TAM I got all worked up. Since my wife is having an EA I don't think she have her cake and eat it too. I went to the bank, got to the counter and asked them to stop the check. At the last minute I got cold feet and I am going to let the check through. I don't want to be a total **** and make life difficult for her (and me). I am already filing divorce on her (and the kids). Next month I will send less than this month. I am going through a jealousy rollercoaster now.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Having a hard time doing the NC this morning. Why is it so easy for her to do the NC while so hard for me ?

About to see the atty. Having to breathe deeply for some reason.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Guys;

I need advice. The last couple of days have been "ok." I have been able to sleep and eat well. Been out of contact with STBXW for several days now. Then I get an e-mail this morning from the STBXW:



> I want to let you know that you and I both need to clear out our issues. I think we need to talk. Please please listen to me. Don't push me too hard. Turn on your cell phone and I need to talk to you.
> 
> At this moment we are not calm enough to make any decisions. We need to give us a chance to establish oursleves first. I sincerely want to talk to you about this.
> 
> ...


I am not sure how to handle. The e-mail has some mixed messages. I wonder if I should respond. She's now calling my office line. I diverted the call to voice mail.

I know I am calm enough to make the decision to divorce because she (a) is mean and cruel to me, (b) pushed me out of my house away from my children, (c) abandoned me, (d) is unfaithful, (e) I don't want to be in reconciliation limbo.


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

I don't understand what she wants...it is clear she doesn't want to divorce right now, but she doesn't say outright what she does want and staying in limbo is not an option.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I am not going to wait around for her while she "finds herself" with other men. Based on her message, she wants to stop the divorce, but that's it. That is cruel for me. It's not enough. I have to move on. I am going to maintain radio silence.


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

Good for you, buddy!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

My STBXW hunted me down at work. I had to go talk to her.

She said she wants me to stay the divorce for 1-month while she goes to IC and works on her issues.

I am inclined to agree against my better judgment. I am afraid she may play games with me. 

I am under pressure to give her an answer. I am wiffle waffling. Any thoughts?


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

You answered your own question. Go through with the divorce, if she magically changes before the divorce is finalized(could take months) then you'll take your petition back and give her another chance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I'm going to give her 1 month to let her do IC. I told the atty to delay the case. I really hope I am not getting taken for a ride.


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## ImStillHere (Apr 25, 2012)

I truly hope this works out best for the both of you. We need some happy stories here on TAM. Too many breakups...

Please keep us posted on what happens during the next month.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

She seemed pretty serious. She really wanted me to stop the divorce. I don't want to get my hopes up. I need to move on. The divorce gives me finality. I don't want to be living in reconciliation limbo. For the past month it was clear there was no reconciliation because she (a) was happy to be rid of me (b) badmouthed me to her friends and (c) had an affair. Since it was clear there was no reconciliation I had to file a divorce so I could move on with my life. Now she comes and asks me to delay it for 1-month while she goes to counseling. I don't know if this is a glimmer of hope or just more pain and disappointment to come. To not look like a total ****, I decided to delay. I now have to work hard on eliminating any hopes and fantasies that I have. I don't want to get my hopes up. I don't want to get disappointed. I just will maintain NC and continue to do IC for myself.


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## ImStillHere (Apr 25, 2012)

boxhead201 said:


> She seemed pretty serious. She really wanted me to stop the divorce. I don't want to get my hopes up. I need to move on. The divorce gives me finality. I don't want to be living in reconciliation limbo. For the past month it was clear there was no reconciliation because she (a) was happy to be rid of me (b) badmouthed me to her friends and (c) had an affair. Since it was clear there was no reconciliation I had to file a divorce so I could move on with my life. Now she comes and asks me to delay it for 1-month while she goes to counseling. I don't know if this is a glimmer of hope or just more pain and disappointment to come. To not look like a total ****, I decided to delay. I now have to work hard on eliminating any hopes and fantasies that I have. I don't want to get my hopes up. I don't want to get disappointed. I just will maintain NC and continue to do IC for myself.


The fact that you agreed means that you still have _some _hope, even if it's only very minute. 

If things don't get better over the next month, you've only lost that month. And, at least, you won't be left wondering about any "what ifs". 

But I'm hoping for something positive for the both of you!


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Why can't you admit you cannot say no to her? She continues to play you like a fiddle. You react to her words and ignore her actions. Try doing the opposite. Tell her you had second thoughts and refuse to remain married to a cheat and liar.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ImStillHere (Apr 25, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Why can't you admit you cannot say no to her? She continues to play you like a fiddle. You react to her words and ignore her actions. Try doing the opposite. Tell her you had second thoughts and refuse to remain married to a cheat and liar.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know your ex did you wrong twice. But boxhead and his wife may be able to work things out. And, THEY have kids. The children must be considered in this...especially since they are innocent of what is going on between their parents.

I don't have kids with my STBXH, so it's much easier to make a clean break. I believe that you didn't have kids either? His situation is different from ours in that respect.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi All;

Still here. Went bikeriding with the kids yesterday and did another bikeride again today. 

Maintaining radio silence. It hasn't been that bad the past couple of days. I don't have to OCD on the cell phone or e-mail anymore. I am having fantasies of her coming over but that isn't as bad as the OCD. She is upset that I don't have a cell phone. She really wants me to buy one. I am not. She doesn't understand OCD I guess.

It seems like the 98% is pulling me the past couple of days. I am beginning to get used to my new digs in Tsing Yi. I saw her on Saturday and saw what I don't want to go back to. She annoyed me. Yelling at the kids, on her cell phone all the time. I keep writing in my journ


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## Conrad&Janie (Jul 2, 2012)

Box,

This really sounds better.

How are things today?


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks Conrad. 

Hi Guys;

My last message was cutoff. I don't have internet at home. I have to write messages from an internet cafe over the weekend; that message got cut. I don't have e-mail or a phone at home to prevent OCDing. 

Once I cut my e-mail and phone off, OCDing magically got a lot better. I am still OCDing on my work e-mail and phone, but it's not as bad now. I just force myself to check my work e-mail and phone once an hour. Then when I am at home, I don't have to worry about OCDing.

The anger is melting away since I have been gone. I have been exploring the anger in IC. 

Haven't been emotional lately. I think I am still feeling depression - still have a pain in the pit of my stomach. 

The last few days have been better. I saw the STBXW and kids and I did not spiral out of control like I did before. I am getting used to my new digs in Tsing Yi. 

When I saw my STBXW last time I thought to myself, do I really want to be with this woman? She annoyed me.

I am now in radio silence now for a month since the divorce is delayed for a bit. The radio silence is a bit easier to maintain since I don't have electronic devices to enable me. Based on my feelings now, I want to continue the divorce. 

1. I don't want to go back to being a doormat. 
2. I don't want to sacrifice myself for my MIL any more.
3. I don't want to go back into a situation where my needs, feelings and opinions are disregarded.
4. I don't want to go back into a situation where decisions are made without my input.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi All;

The 2% has been a drag over the past couple of days. The 2% has been consuming me. How can I get over the 2%?


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

boxhead201 said:


> Hi All;
> 
> The 2% has been a drag over the past couple of days. The 2% has been consuming me. How can I get over the 2%?


Subtract 2 from 2? What do you get?


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

On a serious note, only time and a change of mental awareness will do it .. from what I've been going through.

Although, I'm still slipping from time to time.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

2 - 2 = 0 % Easier said than done.  

I want her to call, e-mail me, etc. I have fantasies of her coming to my flat. All of which is not going to come true. 

I wonder what I can do to change my mental awareness. 

I guess to answer my own question, to get over the 2% I just have to keep busy and try to think about other things besides the STBXW. I have to remind myself that she abandoned me and had an EA. I have to remind myself I don't want to go back to her BS. I have to remind myself that life is better now without her.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

Then remind yourself that hurt is an emotion and if controlled correctly is a healthy way of grieving. It's normal to hurt, but healthy to do anything you possibly can to avoid more future pain.


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

You have to honestly ask yourself "what will contacting her REALLY do?'.

Think about it, what will sending her an email or a text message do for the situation .. nothing.

I don't know how to change my mental thoughts .. it just keeps going over and over in my head.

Mentally, I have combed over our entire relationship over the last 7 years.

Things that I totally forgot about, maybe because during the time we were together they weren't considered 'important'.

What a pity. But nothing can be done about it now.

I know what you are saying, the 'fantasy' thoughts. I catch myself almost every single day practically rehearsing to myself what I would say and do IF she came back to me.

Truth though .. she has done nothing to actually say otherwise. Not a dang thing.

She only came back once and I blew my part, but at the same time .. she wasn't really into it anyways.

It was really because at the time she didn't want to suck it up living at moms and moved back in for the free ride.

Wanted me to 'give her space' while she went out every single night without letting me know where she was .. racking up data on her phone like mad.

But I was the bad guy for snooping and finding things out, of course it was all my fault.

After 3 weeks I blew up on her and she has never looked back.

Then again, I'm doing enough rear view mirror viewing for the both of us and then some.



Sad part is, I keep finding things .. 'milestones' of sorts, hoping she fails and comes knocking on my door.

She never will. Not again. To her, she did that once (even if it was a complete joke) and she will never do it again.

These are the things we need to remember, to grind into our heads.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

That's what I'm talking about Up! Pain is normal. What's not normal is willingly providing your own pain due to a lack of self confidence and willpower.


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

I also post on my thread constantly.

To the point where some probably think I'm just some winy @ss baby who can't deal with life.

Fact is though, I would rather do it on here than to her.

All my weakest moments and thoughts, even if it only lasts for a few minutes .. I would rather vent about it here than in a text.

About a month and a half ago I sent her an email, expressing myself to her.

I did not beg for her to come back, I did not blame her for anything .. I told her how I felt, the things I have learned about myself etc.

Expressed my realization of co dependency, lack of boundaries in our relationship and so much more.

At the end, I told her I didn't seek validation, recognition or even a reply from her .. man, what a lie that was.

I read it a couple days ago .. some of it I can see, but other parts .. I already feel differently now.

The feelings we are going through slowly evolve. You may not feel the same way you did a week ago.

So, that's also another thing to consider before 'giving in and contacting'.

Is it really how you feel? Something you can live with for the rest of your life??

All it will become is broken emotional promises to either her, or yourself.

I also have sent 2 'tough love' texts.

Where I expressed how I have been holding out for her, do not NEED her but I WANT her.

"I don't deserve this" etc, all she did was get mad.

Told me it wasn't appropriate and it was over.

The last 3 months we have had quite a bit of contact simply because of the kids. She would drop them off on 'her week' and pick them up, I acted like a baby sitter.

Starting next week .. I will not have to see her for a week at a time, and when I do it's only to pick the kids up and drop them off a few hours later.

This will be my trying time.

I am very nervous about what this will do to me, because until now I have had my kids for at least half the day for the last 4 months.

That will be cut down to 2-3 hours only in 2 weeks and 4 days with phone calls.

So who knows what kind of person I will be in 2 weeks times or 4 weeks from now.

Maybe all those things I so desperately wanted to tell her before then would have been completely for nothing because they no longer apply.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I am not going to contact her. It will not help. I know that now. She will end up forwarding my communications to all of her friends with nasty comments about me. I've been pretty good the past couple of weeks now.

I know I did bad by snooping and exposing an EA, but I am relieved because it explains her behaviour. I actually don't regret snooping. I exposed her for the liar she was.

Now the situation I am in is that I filed divorce. She came to me at work and asked me to stop it for 1-month. I respected her wishes. She is now in therapy and she is dropping me crumbs here and there which is painful for me. She sent me an e-mail the other day thanking me for giving her a month. She wrote me a card over the weekend saying the same thing. She sent me an e-mail yesterday saying thanks for the money. She eluded in another conversation that she wanted to do marriage counseling after a month. Despite the crumbs I am incredibly worried of being disappointed. I would prefer not to be disappointed.

Conrad in another thread (homework for nice guys) posted the Harley hypothesis. The STBXW only satisfied 2 out of 5 needs for me, while I satisfied almost of all her needs. The marriage is too lopsided.

I would prefer to get on with the divorce and let go. I don't want to go back to her neglect. I don't want to go back to a marriage I was unhappy with. I want to move forward. But at the same time, I have to honor my promise and hold for a month.

It's just hard because I am getting crumbs thrown at me. I am staying silent the whole time, but these crumbs are making things difficult. It's magnifying the 2%.


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## Conrad&Janie (Jul 2, 2012)

Read them again and internalize them.

Were they about you? Were they about your delusions?


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

boxhead201 said:


> I am not going to contact her. It will not help. I know that now. She will end up forwarding my communications to all of her friends with nasty comments about me. I've been pretty good the past couple of weeks now.
> 
> I know I did bad by snooping and exposing an EA, but I am relieved because it explains her behaviour. I actually don't regret snooping. I exposed her for the liar she was.
> 
> ...


I think this is what Conrad means when he says observe for a while. You don't need to tell her these feellings. When you get more confident in yourself and can go a decent amount of time without doing something desperate, she might end up the person you loved.

On the other hand, she might just be sucking the life out of you and was the whole time without you even knowing it. Conrad asked me once "you don't have to wait, but what do you have to lose?" I paraphrased what he said, but you get the point


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

I give you the same advice as Conrad gave me. You do whatever you want. We won't judge you either way, but you have nothing to lose by stepping back and observing without interfering for a while.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

> she might end up the person you loved


Is another breadcrumb I would prefer to avoid. I don't want to be disappointed. She was sucking the life out of me for 10 years and I am free of that now. I have to move on.

I am going to just work hard at NC and stay silent until after Aug 6. Aug 6 is when I plan on continuing the divorce. The very act of stepping back, "chilling out," observing is extremely difficult sometimes. The last couple of days, hard. Last weekend, easy because I have no phone.

I haven't told her my feelings and will never tell them to her again. I've been pretty good for a couple of weeks now. TAM is the place where I can expose my true feelings  TAM is where I can tell my tales of woe.


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

So.. you filed for divorce.

She 'freaked out' and asked you to stop it for a month.

You caved and gave it to her.

NOW she is saying AFTER her therapy she might want to do MC??

Think she will do it while the divorce is on?

Or will that be yet another request to push it back more.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

Ok, so humor me on this one. Get revenge! Try to be and act like the strong man that your working on becoming when you have contact of any sort with her. When it works and she starts wanting you back, then you have the power to make the decision.

Have you ever been in a really bad moved and faked it? I have and eventually I found myself naturally in a good mood. 

Most of us that are fresh into this situation are feeling low confidence and hurting. If we tell ourselves that we are strong and have so many qualities eventually we will actually believe it!


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I am currently faced with a situation where she could be stringing me along with delaying the divorce. The decision I need to make is knowing when to "call it." Well, I am going to call it after a month based on what I am feeling now. I don't want to be strung along because that just intensifies the pain. I want to get on with it. I shouldn't have agreed to the delay in the first place.

If she wants to talk about the marriage in the future, I am not going to fight about the past. I have let go of the past. It's water under the bridge. I am only going to tell her that I don't want to go back to a situation where my needs where ignored and decisions were made without me. A similar, but simpler situation is the cell phone situation. I have no phone now and she is adamant that I get one so she can contact me. I am not going to get one despite her being adamant. If she keeps complaining about the cell phone, I am going to say "sorry, I am not going to get a cell phone." The same applies with the marriage. "Sorry, I don't want to go back into a situation where I was neglected and ignored." I am letting go of the past.

Despite how I feel internally I am acting strong. I moved out of the ****ty situation and I filed a divorce. I've had my moments of weakness throughout June (suicide, whining to her, etc), but from now on, it's no more mr. ****en nice guy. It's just hard to put on that facade some times because deep down I am hurting terribly.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

It's like a said a couple posts ago. We won't judge you either way! You deserve to have a complete and fulfilled life!


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## ImStillHere (Apr 25, 2012)

You posts continue to reflect a negative perspective on this delay of the divorce. 

But, just to play devil's advocate, what would you do if after the month is over your wife shows true remorse and wants true reconciliation? 

I agree that it's hard to imagine that she would change. But, what if she actually does?


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi ISH; et al;

That's a problem I am faced with now. What if she does want "true recon?" Well she needs to be crystal clear on that. To date, I always get mixed signals from her. She says she wants this and that, but then backpedals and says she needs time to heal and blah blah blah, yada yada yada. What about me and what she did to me for the past 10 years?

I always get excuses from her. I got excuses from her during the marriage and I am getting excuses from her now. She always used excuses to make our relationship the lowest priority. I predict I am going to get mixed signals from her in a month's time. I don't want to wait around even if I get mixed signals from her then. I am delaying my healing because of her mixed signals.

I also agree that it's hard to "imagine" that she would change. Imagining that she would change would give false hope. False hope will turn into disappointment. I don't want disappointment. But "what if?" What is the litmus test that I should use? I don't have a litmus test. All I have been getting is mixed signals and that's not good enough for me. I need a pretty ****en clear indication that things have changed. What should that indication be? A clear e-mail? A message on a Good Year Blimp?

When I proceed in a month's time she may ask me to delay further, to which I am going to respond, "I don't want to go back to the neglect, the abandonment. I am moving on." She is probably going to give me a mixed message then where she wants to work it out, but needs to do more IC, and needs time to "heal." I don't want to wait around for her to "heal" because that will delay my healing. I have been waiting for years for her while she deprioritized our relationship and I am done with waiting. It may to turn into an argument that I need to be prepared for. I need to have a clear litmus test by then so I can explain it to her. 

She hurt me by neglecting me, abandoning me, evicting me and having an EA. The only way I can truly heal is getting on with the divorce. I don't want to deal with her wishy-washy crap any longer.

So, in essence, the major issue I am faced *now* with is what is the litmus test I should be using in a month's time to determine whether or not to delay the divorce further or continue?


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## Conrad&Janie (Jul 2, 2012)

Box,

Be careful.

You're sounding like her helpless victim here.

She did nothing you didn't allow her to do.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Conrad;

You are right. I am now the helpless victim. I now get to spend the next month dealing with anxiety of waiting for her to call and reconcile. The last several days have been difficult dealing with this anxiety and I have 23-days to go. I need to tough it out. I will give her this month and then I will take control and resume the D. NC during this time is not a fun experience especially when I have this anxiety gnawing at me.

In the days to come I predict I will be getting more mixed messages. Mixed messages that I will be ignoring because to me, a mixed message is equivalent to no message. Once Aug 6 rolls around I will be announcing that I will be continuing with the divorce and I will not be giving her anymore time.

The last several days have been difficult. Today is especially difficult.


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## Conrad&Janie (Jul 2, 2012)

boxhead201 said:


> Hi Conrad;
> 
> You are right. I am now the helpless victim. I now get to spend the next month dealing with anxiety of waiting for her to call and reconcile. The last several days have been difficult dealing with this anxiety and I have 23-days to go. I need to tough it out. I will give her this month and then I will take control and resume the D. NC during this time is not a fun experience especially when I have this anxiety gnawing at me.
> 
> ...


Boxhead,

Read the last 2 pages of UpnDown's blog. We're making some serious headway there. If you want to talk about it, we can.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Conrad;

I read the last two pages of UpNDown's blog. So what you are insinuating here is that this is a boundary issue and like all the other times in my marriage, my wife forced me to move the boundary around. You are saying that I need to "man up" and don't let her push my boundaries around. Am I on the right track?

Well, the boundary now is Aug 6 and it will not get later. I hope sooner. I am not going to change Aug 6 because I made a promise to her. I would like to get on with it now, but if I change my mind it will be a ****ish thing to do. Hopefully something will happen in the interim that will give me an excuse to continue the divorce now.

"I'm not okay with delaying the divorce any further"
"I'm not okay waiting around for you to make up your mind"


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

Box, you want to push it forward because you think it will make you feel better now. Forget about how many days you have left and start worrying about yourself. Not that I'm doing very good at practicing what I preach, but it sounds good!


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi JD;

As much I want to push the divorce forward, the fact that I filed divorce and publicly exposed an EA forced her to change her ways. She supposedly is now in IC. I need to show a smidgen of patience and hold to see what comes out of a little bit of IC. Right now I am being impatient because I am feeling painfully anxious. I am just not going to let her delay further. 

"I'm not okay with delaying the divorce any further."
"I'm not okay waiting around for you while you make up your mind."


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## lulubelle (Jun 28, 2012)

honestly, if you don't feel like anything will change in the next few weeks, i'd just move forward with the D. you promised her you would wait till then, but how many promises has she broken? focus on you, and whats best for you.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I "feel" like nothing is going to happen, but I need to stick with my promise. It is painful but I have to carry this through. I can't waffle and change my mind because there is no obvious proof that tells me waiting doesn't make sense. I don't think it would look good to waffle again and take back my promise. If there is an obvious sign that I can use, I will take it and run with it. There are no obvious signs right now - just deafening silence from her and from me. All I have are my feelings and insecurities telling me I am going to get screwed. Nothing tangible (yet?).

Until Aug 6 I have to hang tough and use this as a lesson learned. Lesson learned: don't keep changing my boundaries. Another lesson learned: I have to take care of myself (highest priority).

"I'm not okay with delaying the divorce any further."
"I'm not okay waiting around for you while you make up your mind."


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi All;

Gotta whine. Dealing with emotional rollercoaster today. NC/180 is so hard - especially when she is doing the same to me. How can I make NC easier? NC is easier when I am not in the office because I don't have a cell phone or e-mail. When I am in the office I just can't get her out of my mind. No matter how much I don't like her and don't want to be with her, she is haunting me. I want that phone to ring. I want that e-mail to come.

I am having fantasies of her calling me and saying "let's work it out." I have another fantasy of her to magically appearing at my flat for a "liaison." Fantasies like this are driving me crazy. Ultimately, I don't want to be with her because of what she did to me. Why is the 2% killing me? Is it a biological disconnection I am dealing with? Logically I don't want to be with her, but I am having irrational wants that are driving me crazy.

Is it the "hope" that is killing me? The hope is turning into fantasies. She said in a note to me that the fact I delayed the divorce by 1-month shows that I still have "hope" for our relationship. This hope that I have is creating fantasies in my head. The hope itself is also probably largely a fantasy. For the past 3-days I have been plagued by fantasy thoughts I know will never happen. 

How can I get through this month without breaking NC and going nuts? How can I get rid of the 2%? How can I get rid of the fantasies? How can I erase my mind? 

How can I let go? I really want to let go. How ?!?!


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## ImStillHere (Apr 25, 2012)

Box, you're still grieving. It's normal. We all go through it. 

I don't think that hope is doing this to you. I just think you are grieving what once was and what could have been. It's hard to detach emotionally and psychologically from the situation...especially when you didn't ask to be in the "situation" in the first place. 

The grief we feel is a manifestation of the breakdown of our marriages which caused trauma to our collective psyches. How do you deal with trauma? We have to give ourselves proper time to heal while continuing to seek professional and personal counsel. The pain won't go away when we want it to. It will go away when we are _fully recovered and healed_.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi ISH; et al;

I've got depression this morning. Pain in the pit of my stomach. Emotional. Didn't sleep very well last night. Bad dreams too. Keeping up the NC (and vice versa). 

One thing that kept whirring through my head is "it's my gain now." It's from the notes I reviewed last night and something CanGuy said way back when.

I have to see the kids tonight (and tomorrow). I am not motivated because of the depression. Last weekend my stomach was so screwed up I spent the morning vomiting. I hope it's not the same this weekend. I need to put on a facade (the 180) and show strength and contentment in front of the kids and STBXW tonight/tomorrow.

I also want to tell my STBXW that I want to continue the divorce. I want to expedite my recovery. But I keep telling myself I can't do that - I must wait until Aug 6. I must be strong and happy.

Deep breaths.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

Do yourself a favor and think about what you just said. You don't have to see the kids tonight. You get to see the kids tonight!!!!!!!! Focus on the kids when they show up and ignore the stbxw.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks. You're right.

"I get to see the kids tonight." I wish I could see them more.

I feel absolutely wretched on the inside. I have to use all my strength to put on a facade. I have to be good. Be nice, happy and no bad talk.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

Your missing my point still. Forget about your W. You get to see the kids, so your right BE HAPPY. For them not your STBXW. You have said a million times that your done with her. Focus on your kids.


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

Your kids should not suffer because of this. Remove yourself from the situation and enjoy your kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks guys. I will be there for the kids. It's hard to remove myself from the situation because the kids talk about the STBXW, the STBXW is there, etc. 

FYI - I have been keeping connected with the kids throughout the week by mailing them pictures and stickers and stuff.

When the separation started, whenever I saw the kids, I would spiral into a deep depression afterwards. Last weekend when I took care of the kids, there was no spiral - everything was ok. I hope not to spiral after tonight/tomorrow.

I just feel wretched today. I am venting. I want this pain to end. I want to move on. I want to treat NC as a no brainer.


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

Then file.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I've already filed for divorce, paid an attorney a retainer, etc. Just the divorce has been delayed at her request (and to my angst).

BTW - I got a copy of "No More Mr. Nice Guy." I will read it over the weekend. Anyone have any other book recommendations?


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

Sorry, I'm a little intoxicated. I meant to say stop the delay and go with your gut feeling. You sound so unsure that this will work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Rough day today. Having trouble concentrating and keeping it together at work. I really want to say to her "THE DIVORCE IS ON!" But I can't. I have to cool it down and relax. 

Last week she said I push her too hard. Every weekend has been rough on her because I do something or other (suicidal, uncover EA, divorce). I want to go a weekend without "pushing her too hard." If I crack, then its just going to be another weekend of pushing her too hard. Me pushing her too hard for another weekend will result in a broken promise on my part - one that I am trying hard to keep. 

Our marriage is obviously the lowest priority to her. My impatience is taking a toll on me.


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## ImStillHere (Apr 25, 2012)

Is there any way that you can take a vacation with just you and the kids? If not the kids, can you get away for a while? For at least a few days? 

I think you need a change of scenery.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi ISH;

Good point. A couple of weeks ago I got my travel visas in order because I need to get out of Dodge for a bit. I think by getting out, it will be helpful for me. Now I need to make good on the promise for myself and really "Get out of Dodge."


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi; Blog Post; Thinking out loud; 

I need to get some clarity on what I am feeling today because I am not able to work. I am sick to my stomach. I do not want my emotions to poison tonight either. I need to get somewhat to the bottom of what I am feeling so I have a little bit of clarity before I see the kids tonight.

Right now I think I am having 2 anxieties at once.

1. I am having an anxiety where I have to wait for some breadcrumb from the STBXW. This is in the form of a phone-call, e-mail, note, etc. I was feeling this same anxiety at home last week. To mitigate it I cutup the simcard in my cell phone and turned off my personal e-mail account. This really helped at home. But the anxiety is now transferred to my work e-mail and phone. Now I am sitting here at work waiting for that breadcrumb, utterly useless.

2. I delayed the divorce by one month. Now I am having this anxiety where I am prolonging my pain. I am anxious because I am wondering whether or not there will be true reconciliation in a month's time or if I am going to be disappointed. I think this can really be thought of as "reconciliation anxiety." This is the reason why I filed the divorce in the first place; so I can avoid this anxiety.

To mitigate these anxieties I have these options.

1a. Turn off my work phone and e-mail. Not an option. 
1b. Take a vacation. This is possible. I've been meaning to do this. This will take me away from the work e-mail and phone and will help with this anxiety for several days. But it will not permanently solve it.
1c. Turn the breadcrumbs into pieces of sh!t somehow. sh!t is far less appealing than breadcrumbs. I don't want to wait for little pieces of sh!t. Right now I get rid of all the breadcrumbs so I don't OCD on them. I trash all the notes, and delete all e-mails and texts so I don't read them 1000 times. How can I turn that "wanting a call feeling" into something different? How can I think of a breadcrumb as a piece of sh!t that I would like to avoid?

2a. Tell her that I would like to get on with the divorce now. This will put me back in control because I feel like I am being strung along while she "finds herself." It will save me the disappointment that I will most likely face. This is not really an option because I made a promise and I should stick with no matter the outcome. If I keep changing my mind I will not look good publicly. I made a decision so I have to stick with it.
2b. Tell myself that reconciliation ain't going to happen. Rather than waiting for her to reconcile, make reconciliation not an option for me. I need to practice what I've been preaching in this thread. There are many things about her I do not like. I have told myself over and over again I don't want to be with the person she has become. She is not the person I fell in love with. Why even bother with her? I need to be the one to stop the reconciliation. The problem with this option is that I am trying to fool myself. In the back of my mind I know I am fooling myself because the fact that I am being "strung along" means there is a remote possibility for recon.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can reframe these 2 anxieties so they are not killing me? Ideally I would prefer not to change anything (e.g. shut off phone, continue divorce now). I just need to see things a different way (e.g. reframe) so I am not suffering like I am now. Suggestions ??


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi All;

Saw the kids and the STBXW tonight. The outing with the kids went well. However, I didn't do the 180 all that well with the STBXW. I talked about the past once and the divorce anxiety I feel with her. Break out the 2x4s. The anxiety that I felt today is just too much for me. I gotta bring it under control. I decided to continue the divorce. I called her and told her that I will be continuing the divorce. I told her ...

"I'm not okay with getting strung along."

"I'm not okay waiting for you to make up her mind."

"I'm not okay living in reconciliation limbo."

I said goodbye and hung up.

I think I failed at the 180 tonight, but the good part is I am allaying my anxiety about the divorce. I need to be firmly in control of this and push it forward. I am not going to let her push me around on this. The fact that I am proceeding seems to rid myself of the 2 anxieties that I felt earlier today.

I may (or may not) be getting a note when the maid brings the kids tomorrow. The note will probably try to push back on the divorce. To which I am just going to write ...

No.

"I'm not okay with getting strung along."

"I'm not okay living in reconciliation limbo."


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

Your pushing for something that you don't sound the slightest bit ready for, but you think that will bring closure. It's your life, so that's your choice. You won't be ok, until you get control of your emotions. Something tells me you didn't have control of your emotions even when she was with you.

WORK ON YOURSELF.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

jdlash said:


> Your pushing for something that you don't sound the slightest bit ready for, but you think that will bring closure. It's your life, so that's your choice. You won't be ok, until you get control of your emotions. Something tells me you didn't have control of your emotions even when she was with you.
> 
> WORK ON YOURSELF.


Aye, aye. Observe your own reactions @50,000 feet.

And, tell us about them.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi JD;

Are you saying I am not ready for D? Or not ready for R? 

How can I work on myself dealing with these anxieties? I don't want to be going crazy wondering whether or not R is going to happen. I have to bring closure to this because I think she is stringing me along and I have to move on from this nightmare. I think D gives me closure because that tells me once and for all, R ain't going to happen.

I do agree that I need to work on myself, but when I have this crap hanging over my head, it ain't helping.

When it comes to the D, I am not being emotional. This is something that I need to do in order to gain sanity. 

I wasn't emotional with her tonight actually. Didn't feel a tinge of emotion. Are you saying that the fact I saw her tonight changed my mind (50000 ft)? I have been fighting the anxiety all week about the D and I've been told I should just get on with it. After seeing her tonight, I was not emotional, but I decided, I really need to get on with it in order to get rid of this anxiety.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

You guys are ballbusters tonight.


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## ImStillHere (Apr 25, 2012)

I agree with JD. Based on your posts, I honestly don't think your problems will go away just because you continue with the D. 

With all due respect, I think that you need to get your emotions and anxiety under control. You say that the anxiety you feel is due to your relationship. But what I read is a _self-imposed_ anxiety about things you cannot control. 

But you are forgetting what you _can_ control: YOURSELF. 

That's why I suggested a vacation/change of venue. Take a break from EVERYTHING and just focus on YOU. Get your thoughts under control. Read some books. See some sights. "Forget" about your life for a little while. In other words, be selfish.


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

When I go to the gym, I don't think of her. I focus on my breathing and technique. That's my time and it's good.

It only gets reinforced that much more when I run into people I haven't seen in a while and they say "holy crap, your arms are huge".

My bros girl said that last night lol and my brother started a new job in construction, he's skinny as hell. Made a joke that after the summer he might look like me, ha.

I've started cutting the sleeves off my shirts, buying muscle shirts too.

I don't seek the attention, but I feel confident enough now to be able to wear those cloths now.

There is no insane diet, I don't have the money for protein powder, or pre gym juice. I'm not eating only chicken breast, because I can't afford it.

I've taken 2-3 days off from the gym, skipped cardio because I just didn't want too or not pushed that extra rep when I knew I could have.

And you know how that makes me feel now? Disappointed in myself.

That's a good thing because it shows that I'm starting to care about myself again 

She has never commented me on my weight loss, well she asked me 2 months ago if I had been going to the gym. But that was more of a "what are you doing with your time" and I used to always ***** about wanting to go back.

By not saying anything to me, she proves me right even more.

You need to find your personal mojo and stop making excuses like OCD etc.

It's in your control to change.

I say this with love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Aye, aye. Observe your own reactions @50,000 feet.
> 
> And, tell us about them.


I'm basing this on my reactions. I could D my wife today and it would make it worse because I'm not ready. I'm just saying boxhead that the D isn't a magical answer. Time is the one thing that will heal you and the other is to not blame anyone but yourself. Your wife hurt you, but the only one you can change is yourself.

I struggle every single day. I do know that struggle won't go away if I ran out and got a Divorce. I hate wondering too. I have to find strength to continue to heal and better myself. 

I'm just encouraging you to try and do the same.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks for the tough-love guys.

I focus on myself everyday, but it is not good enough. I run 6k a day, get sh!tloads of exercise on the weekend, eat well. When I don't exercise I get disappointed in myself. When I had a gym membership and if I skipped a day, I would get disappointed too. I think I treat myself pretty okay. But I am still going through this anxiety hell. How can I reframe the OCD into something else? I know traveling is one answer. But what if I am stuck in HK? When then?

Now I said this stuff last night. And I have a short response note prepared for today saying I want to continue the D. What should I do, just ignore it? Forget I ever said it?

How can I get through separation? In my eyes, the D helps me get through because I don't want to go through reconciliation limbo and I don't want to get strung along. I am using the D to take care of myself. Why will continuing with the D make it worse?

Earlier in the week I was hearing that I should get on with the D. Now I am told I am not ready for it. I feel like I am getting some mixed messages.

Confused.

PS: Up. Is that avatar a picture of you??


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

Avatar of me?? Haha, oh heck no.

That's *Hacksaw Jim Duggin*!!!!

Old WWF (WWE) wrestler, he would come out with the American flag and a 2x4, giving the thumbs up. LOL.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

JD - You hit one thing on the head. Emotions. I am a person of high emotional intensity. I have always been that way. It's a family thing. When I first moved out I was hugely emotional - suicidal. Over the past couple weeks I have been more clear and calm. I have been working hard not to be emotional. Last night I was not emotional. I actually slept through the night. 

The major anxiety I am feeling now is that I am getting strung along for R. Last night, I came to the conclusion I need to kill this anxiety that I am feeling and continuing the D is the only way to kill that anxiety. The D is closure for me. If I keep the D open forever, I am going to suffer. The D is already filed. The court case is open. An attorney has already been retained. I made my bed, so I need to lay in it. To reverse course now requires a huge sign on her part - a sign that I have not and probably will not see.

So, any suggestions on what to do at this point? Continue with the D? Drop it? I'm ready for some more ball-busting and 2x4ing.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

JD, Conrad,

You are right. I gotta deal with my sh!t first. I can't do any crazy ass things in the interim. I feel like I am going nuts. I'm swinging like a pendulum. I feel like an idiot.

I just have to chill, do IC, and focus on myself explicitly.

Easier said than done when my anxieties are running wild.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Cut your losses and continue D. You are in limbo...neverland.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Guys;

No update. D on hold until Aug 6. IC agreed with Conrad/JDLash. She thinks I am not ready for for the D yet. I am still swinging like a pendulum. I can identify with you Bandit, but I have to hold and take care of myself.

We are 180ing NCing each other. STBXW is supposedly in IC. I am doing the IC thing myself. Ongoing rollercoaster. Keeping it together though. Kinda hard. Making sure I am taking care of myself (e.g. selfish).

Going to see my son's graduation tomorrow. Went out and bought an air horn. Everybody in HK is so passive. I am the loud one in the audience. Whenever my kids are presented with an award, I make alot of noise by screaming their names. The entire auditorium stares at me in disbelief. "Who is this loud foreigner?" I am generally very quiet. Tomorrow I plan on making lots of noise with my air horn when my son is up. I am bound to make somebody mad. 

Been reading NMMNG. Some of the book resonates with me (covert contracts, anger resentment, etc), but some of it does not. I need to let it sink in a bit. Can you guys recommend some other reading material in the meantime?


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

One book at a time boxhead. Read NMMNG a couple times and really understand it. It took me 2 times to start getting it. I still think I'm missing a lot of it and will go back and read it again soon.

Consider NC 2 things. 1. No Contact. 2. No Conflict.

When you see your W, don't engage in the drama triangle. Stay out of it. 

Sounds like your doing better and that's great news!


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi JD;

Thanks. I am already starting on my second read of NMMNG. I actually is quite a good book. It hits home.

I saw my son's graduation yesterday. Blew the air horn. Caused a big scene. Almost got kicked out of the theatre. It was fun. I didn't stick around too long after because I did not want to engage with the STBXW that much. Instead I went home and worked 20-meters QRP and got my first contact in a couple of months (I am a ham VR2UZY/AB1OT). 

I am swinging like a pendulum still. I still have another couple of weeks before I need to make a decision on the D. Until then I will be doing the 180, NC, NMMNG, etc. It's up and down. I find that if I stay busy it is easier.

One question: Can I use TAM as the "safe person" ?


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

I think TAM can be used as general advice. If you want a safe person, you could possibly find someone on here that is stable and educated enough for that. Maybe Conrad would be interested

About the D. You have as long as you want to make that decision. You don't have to pull the trigger on that until your ready. Unless she does of course.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

Boxhead, I hope your having a good weekend! You haven't been on here lately. I hope that's because your doing well and don't need to vent.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi JD; et al; (long post)

I've been around. I don't want to overload the discussion forum  Thanks for asking about me. I appreciate it. 

I find that when I lurk on TAM too much, my anxieties get worse. Canguy: "Thought fuels emotion." That statement could never be more true. I've been limiting myself to reading TAM because of this. I don't want to think too much about the STBXW and the hell I've been through. Other people's situations on TAM kind of remind me of it.

I saw my son's graduation on Thursday. Blew the air horn. Almost got kicked out. I was invited to dinner with the STBXW and kids but I declined because I did not want to be around her. I took off as soon as the graduation pictures were over. The STBXW said she'll "call me" on Friday. 

I was OCDing really bad on my work phone and e-mail account on Friday because of what she told me on Thursday. I don't want to OCD on my phone and e-mail hoping that I will get some sort of breadcrumb from her. Since Friday's are normally slow at work I forwarded my phone to the weather channel. I setup mail rules to delete all of her incoming mail. Today I took the forward off, but I am going to leave the e-mail rules in place. I don't want to OCD on the breadcrumbs.

I had IC on Friday night. I told the counselor that on Thursday's and Friday's I normally get really anxious. It dawned on me during IC that I get anxious on these days because "I want to fight." I am looking for a fight. Next time I see the IC, I want to talk about this some more. Why am I looking for a fight?

On Saturday I had the kids. I stayed at the flat; took them to the pool and playground and MacD's. Usually on Saturday's I talk with the STBXW. She wrote me a card saying "I am strong" with some scripture about "hope" on it (Jeremiah/Journey). I gave the STBXW a copy of NMMNG and printed another for myself this morning. On the last 2 Saturday's I am finding I only listen and my STBXW does most of the talking. I tried to give her some of my viewpoint last Saturday but she would not see it. 

I hadn't planned on getting any boats this weekend because there is no wind. Then on Saturday we started getting really muggy weather; the typical weather that preceeds a typhoon. So I secured a boat for Sunday.

On Sunday the winds for the typhoon started to hit just as a I sailing. The winds were really good. I had the boat (Laser XD) going like a rocket. Capsized many times. I also had a good ham radio day during lunch (3 QRP "J" contacts). Watched a movie Sunday night (Truman Show). 

Now today I am sore (back, legs) and sunburnt.

On Sunday night and today I have been reviewing my notes from IC. I am still thinking about the D ...


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

Your still struggling, but if you want to see your progress, just go back to your first 2 pages of this thread. 

You sound great and the sailing sounds like a blast too!


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Guys; 

No update. Still doing the NC and 180ing each other. It hurts. Struggling the past couple of days.

Been feeling anger. Angry that she won't call and say hello. Granted I don't have any avenues open (no e-mail, work phone only). I know I have to nurture myself, but sometimes it is hard. I need a black mother to tell me "you is kind, you is smart, you is important." (movie: The Help). I feel like the lowest priority to her. I am bummed she isn't chasing me.

Been stressing over the D and what to do. I don't want to cancel it because I will lose face. I also don't want to cancel it because it will give her an opportunity to de-prioritize me further. On the flip side I feel like I am being vindictive and manipulative by filing the D. If I continue the D she is going to say, "so you don't want to work on our relationship," but if I delay the D further, then it will give her an opportunity to stall me more. Stressing on what to do.


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

Are you really doing the 180? It isn't about making her see something you aren't, its about taking care of and focusing on yourself. Also, you say above that you feel the need for someone to tell you how great you are...and than you say that you are bummed she isnt chasing you. Really?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi MA; thanks 

I've been focusing on myself exclusively for the past 2 months now. Despite the isolation and loneliness, I've made myself priority #1. I am doing the best I can to take care of myself and move on. I eat well. Exercise well. Keep busy. For the past couple of weeks now I've been following the 180 pretty closely, but it ain't easy sometimes. I have days where I miss her and I wish she would call and chase me. I am having one of those days. A bump in the road that I hope to soon be over. I am just using this thread in an attempt to vent and try to make myself feel better.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I just re-reviewed the 180 again to make sure I am not making any glaring errors. I'm not. I've just been hurting the last couple of days. I just wrote to this forum to vent.

I am also experiencing anxiety on what to do about the D.

I will talk to the IC about these anxieties tonight.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Guys;

More venting. I am in a bit of a catch-22 with the D. I don't know what to do. It is causing me anxiety.

1. If I cancel the D, I will lose "face." I will lose self esteem because I was not able to follow through with this. I set a personal boundary with the D and dropping the D sends the message saying it's okay to move this boundary.
2. If I cancel the D, it will send the message to the STBXW that it is okay for our relationship to be deprioritized. The upside of the D is that I sent her a bolt of lightning that said our relationship is on the precipice of being over. She is now in IC and has told me she wants to do MC eventually. I don't know if the D caused this, but if I drop the D I am worried MC will get deprioritized. 
3. I feel like if I continue the D, I am being vindictive. I am angry for what she did to me and I want her to pay.
4. I feel like if I continue the D, I am being manipulative. I deserve another chance. 

If I continue the D, I lose because I will be letting my anger and emotions force me into a possible second-round of craziness. I also lose financially. 

If I drop the D, I lose because I am not honouring myself. I again let her change the boundaries and send her message saying it's okay to make me last on the list. I lose by sitting in R limbo.

This morning I feel like I want to silently drop the D. The ball already is in the STBXW's court. Would be better to chill and see what happens?

In another thread Script said go with my gut. I can't. I'm swinging. I'm confused. I can't trust my gut.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

Don't go through with the D then. Don't give a date this time though. She is going to IC, so that's a start. Just silently drop it and if she brings it up, we will come up with a good response at that time


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks JD;

How do I deal with the impatience? How can I chill out? Don't tell me I need to focus on myself. I am already doing that, but still, I am having these anxieties and it's killing me. If it isn't one anxiety it's another. I am transferring the "D" anxiety to impatience. How can I deal with the impatience without taking a Quaalude ?


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

I wish I had the answer to that. Impatience and anxiety is the hardest part. I guess just sail more!


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## ImStillHere (Apr 25, 2012)

Volunteer. I'm sure there is some organization, school, etc., that would appreciate the extra help.


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## our vision shattered (May 25, 2012)

Hey box, are you on medications, anxiety/ antidepressants etc, they can really chill you out & bring you down. Ive had some serious soap opera drama over the last few days & Xanax really kept me calm, maybe not the best today lol but generally they help, I only use them now on the rough days, hang in there my friend. Time will give you the answer you seek.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks Guys. I need to make Impatience, Anxiety and Time my friend. Ugh.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Guys I am in extreme anger mode this morning. I want to mail my STBXW, the children and her parents the pictures of the OM and the love letters she wrote him. I'm not well.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

DON"T do anything that will make you feel worse later. Go for a run or something.


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## ImStillHere (Apr 25, 2012)

And what will that solve? 

Get rid of it. It's a BAD trigger.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks for responding guys. I appreciate it. I need a shoulder to cry on. I am doing my best to ride this out. I am in alot of pain now.

I printed the love letters got the envelopes ready and thought to myself. What am I doing? What will this accomplish? Nothing. I put them in my drawer. Now I have to use all my strength and energy to not act on this emotion.

I need to get exercise but can't. We just had a typhoon roll through HK so it has been raining non-stop for days now. I think I am going to run anyways. Frak the rain.

I am swinging the other way today. Because of my anger I want the D today. 

I want off this rollercoaster.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Guys;

I've gone back to depression mode. It's pretty bad tonight. I had to blow off the kids and ice skating tonight. I'm supposed to see the kids tomorrow. I can't. I'm hurting real bad inside. I've lost my appetite. I am going to force myself to eat in a minute.

I am going to disappear across the border tomorrow. I am going to goto Shenzhen to explore.

Sorry. I am venting. I feel like I did two months ago.

I was good today. I didn't do anything bad. I'm just alone and depressed and hurting really bad now. I don't know why. I've been good.

My son's birthday is coming up and I can't spend it with him. Maybe that's the reason why I am hurting real bad.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

The emotions are extreme tonight. I am feeling intense anger and hatred now. I wrote a couple of nasty letters with pictures of the OM. I ended up tearing up the letters and threw them away. My heart is racing. My breathing is deeper. I feel like I am on drugs (I am not).

I think I am upset for a couple of reasons:

(a) I was expecting a call today from the STBXW and got one that was very impersonal. I didn't take the call. I let it ring to VM. The message was 5 seconds. It hurt. I felt unwanted. Unneeded. Unnecessary. She didn't say anything mean. She was just talking biz. No breadcrumbs like the ones she throws me on Saturdays. Well I won't be around tomorrow.
(b) My son's birthday is soon and I won't be able to celebrate it with him like before. I am now an outcast.

I hate this roller coaster. I want off.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

Box, I'm hear for you as a friend, but you need to man up. Not for yourself, but for your children. You are in to much pain to see your children? You are showing your W that your weak and making her decision become a good one. 

You can't change what's happening, but your losing the most important part of your family. I don't know what advice to give you if you can't dig deep down and find the strength to be with your children. 

I'm at a loss for you not being able to see your kids. The best days I have are when my 2 little girls are with me. I don't need my W there to have fun with the most important part of my life.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks JD; et al;

I got my once-a-week breadcrumb last night. 

"We miss you" taped on the door of my flat. That's it. 

What a crock of sh!t. My phone is silent all week. No postal mail. No e-mail. No communication whatsoever. Deafening silence. If they really missed me I would get something more than a little note saying "we miss you." Their actions do not agree with their words. If they really miss me, why can't they show it? A little note once a week is not enough. I send my kids postal mail all week long. I have a nice package prepared and ready to be sent Monday. On the flip side, I get nothing but silence.

I have been suffering extreme depression the last couple of days because of this. Seeing my kids makes the depression worse because I hear all sorts of sh!t about the STBXW. On top of that I get crappy breadcrumbs from the STBXW that make things worse. I don't want to hear it because it hurts in the end. Don't I deserve to get some time off to deal with my issues? 

I need some time to myself to reflect and figure out what I am going to do about the D. Yesterday I did 10-pages of notes. Today will probably be the same. I am isolating myself because I am extremely upset and angry over the mixed signals I am getting, and everything else. I have to get my head straight. It ain't on straight now. Before I see anybody I have to be straight. If they see this as a sign of weakness and if it furthers their resolve, then frak them.

"Man up" for some reason upsets me. I believe the statement is sort of a cop out. No offense JD. I've heard this statement a couple of times. Isn't "Manning Up" doing what needs to be done? If you need to take care of yourself without hurting others, is that apart of manning up? I am isolating myself now because I have to take care of myself. I also don't want to say or do anything that will jeopardize my position. 

Forgive me, I am upset, angry, depressed, everything. Got the feeling in the pit of my stomach again.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

Hi BH,

Sorry for not being around and sorry to see you're still hurting. Glad to see you taking our advice and working through this, despite the pain and difficulty. That will subside, but the walk through hell takes a while.




boxhead201 said:


> "Man up" for some reason upsets me. I believe the statement is sort of a cop out. No offense JD. I've heard this statement a couple of times. Isn't "Manning Up" doing what needs to be done? If you need to take care of yourself without hurting others, is that apart of manning up? I am isolating myself now because I have to take care of myself. I also don't want to say or do anything that will jeopardize my position.
> 
> Forgive me, I am upset, angry, depressed, everything. Got the feeling in the pit of my stomach again.


I think the "man up" comment is in reference to you sticking to the plan, not bending or deviating from the goal and 180. Easier said than done, I know, but try to stay the course. Manning up is also taking charge of yourself and being in control of your emotions. Again, easier said than done.

I understand you're upset, angry, depressed... everything. However, let's take a progress check. 2-3 weeks ago, where were you compared to now? Any progress and improvement? I've seen some over the course of your posts. Don't forget that.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

You are making progress that's for sure. When I said man up, I meant that you need to figure out a way to separate your emotions with your W from your children. What helps me is to not focus on the "old family situation" and think of it as me and my kids. They are the most important thing in the world to me and it was difficult at first, but now I have more fun with my girls then I ever had. 

I'm not trying to be to hard on you, just trying to support your recovery.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Canguy; JD;

Thanks. I am going through a pretty bad bout of depression now. Haven't slept in a few days. I can't let the STBXW or the kids see it. I have been pretty good the past few weeks and I don't want to blow it. I have to take care of my sh!t first which is obvious, it ain't taken care of yet. Today I feel like how I felt when I first moved out. I kinda wonder if I am back at square-1. Probably not.

I would prefer it if you guys are hard on me. I believe that is a better way to learn. I just get agitated when I hear the "man up" statement. No offense taken. 

I do have a great time with the kids. And they seem to have a great time with me. What is hard is that the STBXW drops them off, picks them up, and drops me very painful breadcrumbs. I could not deal with the breadcrumbs this weekend. 

Instead this weekend I spent evaluating what the hell I am going to do about the D, how I am going to approach, etc. I also thought about what did I do to contribute to the demise of our relationship. I have been thinking as to why the hell I am so angry, and trying to dig into that. I have been doing alot of journaling.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

What kind of crumbs are you getting?


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

Have you read nmmng?


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Conrad; JD; Thanks.

I have read NMMNG. I am in the middle of my second read. Working the exercises this time. I am a nice guy. 

As for the breadcrumbs; 

3 weeks ago, an e-mail saying she "really enjoyed our conversation." She bought me toilet paper (I needed it).

Dead silence for a week.

2 weeks ago, a bookmark with the serenity prayer, some handwritten note (don't remember what she said since it was mainly bull****). The main thing I remember from that note is she put some scripture on there. Jeremiah, Journey 29:11; "god has plans to give you hope."

Dead silence for another week.

Last weekend, a note taped to my door saying "we miss you." I call bullocks on that - silence for weeks. 

During the whole time I have not initiated contact. That hurts. What use would I get from initiating anyways? None. I would end up pushing her away.

I couldn't take any more of this. I had to go off an evaluate my situation. I had to go dark.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead201 said:


> She bought me toilet paper (I needed it).


Nothing says "I love you" like a really good wipe.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I thought you guys would enjoy that.

The way to a man's heart is through his ass, oh, I mean stomach.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead201 said:


> I thought you guys would enjoy that.
> 
> The way to a man's heart is through his ass, oh, I mean stomach.


Just a different port on the same causeway.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Was it a generic brand .. or a nice quilted 3 ply... lol


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

UpnOver said:


> Was it a generic brand .. or a nice quilted 3 ply... lol


The quilted kind sometimes leaves those little shixballs of tissue - if you wipe too vigorously.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Conrad said:


> The quilted kind sometimes leaves those little shixballs of tissue - if you wipe too vigorously.


I dislike those types that leave the powder trail on the seat.


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## Samcro (Feb 12, 2012)

Read this from start to finish. Wow what a ride at first I thought you were a wuss and couldn't cut the ***** off. But reading on, you are a roller coaster of emotions. I would suggest finding some mess to settle you down like Zoloft or Ativan..I use Ativan when my thoughts get the best of me and helps me to control them. I see you are finally coming to terms with your divorce and I suggest sticking with it even if it a symbol of your needs. You must do it. After the D and you are both are in IC together and maybe want to reconcile then do it. 
But why she wants you to wait on the D is cause she knows it wasn't her choice and she has a strong force over you. Plus she know is means the end of the free house and car. This is the only reason why.. She will when it gets closer to the D day, she will start tossing you more **** tasting poison filled breadcrumbs about how the kids love the house and are sad to leave. Kids are fragile, but very smart and strong to. They will understand why they are moving. 

As for the XW. Omg she has such a power trip over you it's not funny. She has reduced you to a high school nerd who got to date a cheerleader and you grovel and hang on her every word.
I am proud of you manning up and working on your self..you need to be strong for yourself and the kids. Not the wench. 

What type of work are you in to over in HC? Since the XW knew she had the upper hand on you and it's time for you to do a little payback. HK is filled with amazing people and I don't doubt there isn't a woman out there for you in that huge city. You do enough running,exercise and you don't see another attractive woman around that is cute and fun to talk to? You need some fun in your life, I would if you want to get back at the wife a little, do some revenge dating. Start real slow as friends. Hell, I would hire a girl (not talking sex, just hire her for the hour to dive her around, hire her for the next time too) to go with you to the next pickup For the kids. If your W sees you with another girl friend or paid for, she will loose it and it would be fun to see her stress some like you have been doing. 

It's been real nice seeing you come out of your horrible shell and starting to realize there is life left yo live and it's not over. If you get yourself happy, and the kids see you truly happy, then they will be happy and. You 3 will grow closer as a result.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Gents -

I advised the attorney to cancel the D. I haven't talked to the STBXW for more than a week now. But I am all over the place and I am experiencing anxiety. One day I really want the D, another day I don't. I'm not ready. I am very angry and hateful towards her, but I have to get my head on straight before I make anymore drastic decisions. That being said I figured it would be best to drop the D for now and come back to it in 6 months to a year. 

BTW - I really want the D now because I hate her guts. But I am going against my better judgment and dropping it.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Not a good day today.

STBXW called on a unrelated note. I told her am very angry over everything. I then mailed her a letter with pix of the OM. I then left her a VM how she is the cause of the anger and she doesn't care at all. I lost it. Break out the 2x4s. I'm in bad shape today.

I am still going to cxl the D. My current rationale for canceling the D - the D should be done based on logic and not emotion. I need to let time pass. My current D was filed based on a flurry of emotion - of which I am still feeling. It was also filed quickly. 

Not a good day.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Changed my mind again. I told the attorney to hold.

What a frikken nightmare today.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I couldn't work. I took a half day off. Went and ran for the latter half of the day in an attempt to clear my mind. Samcro is right. The stbxw has a hold over me. I have to break this hold. Before I left work today I called the stbxw and yelled 3x I am proceeding with the divorce and hung up. I think the only alternative I have is proceed. I am not ready. But I have to break the hold, and maybe the divorce is the way the break the stbxw's hold on me.

She is a b!tch. I wrote the same things in the letter today as I have been saying for months. She hasn't done a damn thing to address them. Same things...

1. Mean and cruel to me.
2. Abandoned me.
3. Forced me to move out of my own home.
4. Had an affair.
5. Does nothing to fix the relationship. I am the lowest priority.

Has things changed since I moved out. No.

I feel like an idiot. My marriage is ruined. I am not helping with my erratic behavior. I failed at the 180 pretty badly today. I've been pretty good for a couple of weeks. But now, I am a wreck. I am glad I took off work before I became any worse.

I need to let go. I have to break her hold on me. I have to let this anger go.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Box,

The anger isn't her holding you back.

It's you holding you back.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

I agree with Conrad.

You need to take a breath and step back.

Leave it as it is, but cut yourself a little slack.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi guys,

Can you clarify? What do you mean? I am thick tonight. Tough day. Hold me back? From what? Letting go? Sorry.

To make the day worse, I called the stbxw in calm tone and apologized for my rants today. Sounds like she was in the middle of therapy because of the way she answered me. Anyways I told her I am upset that nothing has happened in the past month and that the five major issues I highlighted above are still there. Nothing has changed. I gave her a month and things are still the same. Two months after I moved out, I still have immense anger over her abandoning me and having an EA. I told her that I am experiencing a lot of anxiety over the upcoming divorce decision. I told her that I will be proceeding with the divorce. I told her that she really hasnt done anything in the past month to allay these issues and to stop the divorce. I told her i need more than toilet paper and scripture to cancel the divorce. The call ended with me saying, "I need more." 

I doubt I'll get more. I will probably get less. I delayed the divorce for a month and what did I get? Toilet paper and scripture. What a bargain. I should never have delayed. Now I'll have to settle for starbucks napkins.

Its over. I have to let go. She treated me like garbage, even until now. The divorce is me asserting myself and saying, "frak you.". I really am not ready for the divorce, but I am now in the thick of it. I made my bed and now have to lie in it.

Break out the 2x4s.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Your view on this is all wrong IMO.

You're out to "get back at her" because she hurt you.

So, you destroy all forms of communication, she gets upset and eventually you both go pretty much dark.

Instead of taking this time to work on yourself and gradually detach.. you sit there reevaluating everything and make a check list?

Then you blow up on her out of the blue.

Then you call and apologize?

Take a deep breath, and step back from the situation.

Most of what is going on right now.. you are doing to yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thx up. I am trying to understand, but I am still confused.

How can I detach when she's throwing me crumbs? I am trying my best to detach and work on myself. Some days are hard. Today was one of them. I'm no expert like you guys. I am very emotional. The only real way to detact is to completely abandon and leave HK. That would not be right.

I have the D hanging over my head. I need to do something about it. I can't just let it go. I am upset that sh!t hasn't happened for two months now. She asked me to delay the D which created a hope for me that hasn't panned out. I am upset that (a) I delayed the D, (b) let her walk on me and (c) nothing has changed since June.

I apologized for my angry outburst and then clarified what I meant. I didn't apologize to her per se, just clarified. I didn't blow up out of the blue. She threw me another breadcrumb over the weekend that was bullsh!t and I called her on it. I am tired of being thrown scraps of BS. She says one thing but does another.

I sort of understand that I am doing this to myself. I started the whole thing by moving out in the first place, and filing D in the first place, then letting the D slide and then going nuts today. If I didn't stand up for myself, she would still be walking all over me today. She still is walking all over me. I am trying to set a boundary and assert myself. The D is that. 

Is it the anger emotion is what I am doing to myself? The IC says that the anger is self inflicted. I need to discuss that with her. I have alot of anger and I need to somehow let it go. 

What are you saying? That I should just go completely silent, and drop everything? How can I do that when I've got crumbs thrown at me and the D to make a decision on? Are you saying I should ignore the crumbs - not interpret them as that? What about the D? Just drop it? 

Can you be crystal clear on what I should be doing? Just go silent and forget about it? Sorry I am not good with abstractions.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Now I'm swinging the other way. This is horrible.

What I have in my head now is tell the attorney to cancel the D, go dark and work on myself. 

I've been pretty dark these few weeks and it really takes a toll. I really don't ever want to see the STBXW again. I don't ever want to hear about her again either. I hate her for what she has done to me.

I'm a mess. 

I'm going to try to sleep. I haven't slept very well in 4 days now.


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## ImStillHere (Apr 25, 2012)

Did you ever take that vacation??? I think you need _at least_ two weeks off, preferably 4 weeks. 

No wife, no HK, just get out of there. You can still talk to your kids daily via skype, facetime, etc. 

But you need to get collect your thoughts in an environment where you can heal and get yourself together. In a *peaceful* location where you won't trigger as easily. 

Have you considered going back to the States for a while and visiting with family? Go to the coast. Visit the countryside. Rent a car and just drive. Whatever it takes. 

You need a break...asap.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Guys;

I told the attorney to cxl the D. I am not ready. My head isn't on straight.

I talked for the STBXW this morning. She was pretty pissed. She told me to leave her alone. She wouldn't hear me on alot of things.

You are right. I need to get out of Dodge. I've been saying this for 2-months now. I need to do it.

I am back at square-one now. Disappointed.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Again, I am in pretty bad shape today.

I had an hour long intense conversation with the STBXW this morning. She didn't care about what I was going to do about the D. "She wants me to stay away from her." "She is going to take a long time to heal." She tried to make it seem like this is 100% my fault; like I am the crazy one. I told her that she has just as much blame abusing me as I do her. She did not hear alot of what I said today. She was p!ssed because I freaked out yesterday.

She says she's not responsible for my anger (she's right). She will not work through it in MC with me. She is the cause of my anger and I need to work through it with her. She refused. 

To add fuel to the fire, the nasty letter I wrote yesterday should get to her by today. 

I told the attorney to cxl the D. I am awaiting feedback from him. I am going to cancel the D even if the conversation with the STBXW was negative. I'm not ready for the D. I am swinging too much and that is an obvious sign I am not ready to go through with it.

Back at square one today. I feel depressed, sad. I'm also having suicidal thoughts which ain't good. I feel like sh!t. 

I don't ever want to see the STBXW again. She treats me like a piece of garbage and does not see it. It was clear during the conversation today that I am the piece of sh!t and she is the righteous one. I really have to move on because I am going nuts.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

How are you hoping to move on when you just canceled the D?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I dunno. I just need to work on myself and forget about R. I'm pretty sure I will be in reconciliation limbo forever, so I might as well forget about it. 

I know that I am in no frame of mind to make any huge life decisions right now. The D is a huge life decision that I am swinging wildly on. The fact that I am swinging shows my mind is not made up and my head isn't on straight, so I cancelled it. 

I just have to get her out of my head and just focus on myself. If things are still bad in 10-months, and if my mind is clearer then, then I will file the D. For now I just have to somehow chill.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

Box, I hope you take this constructively and not in the wrong way, but here it is. 

Your post on another thread:

Hi Guys;

I want to date too 

It's very lonely in HK.

I really dislike dating sites. They truly suck. 

I don't drink or smoke either, so I don't do the bars.

I am against office romances.

I have no friends.

The big question I have now is how?

So I have a hard battle to fight when it comes to dating. 

I agree that you need to find some friends, but I'm really seeing your problem right now as being a MAJOR codependant. Reading that makes me think your anger, lack of control and back and forth rages are coming from the fact that you can't stand to be alone. I'm thinking that your angry you didn't get your way, but I'm not sure your angry about losing the W. If you wanted her back, I'm not sure you would be wanting to start dating already. 

Step back and keep working on yourself. Make some guy friends in HK. It would be a great way to learn a new culture and learn more about yourself. 

Dating will cause you more problems. If you found someone and temporarily filled that empty void in your heart, your current emotional standing would hurt yourself and more importantly hurt another innocent person.

Keep working and hang in there!


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi JD;

No offense taken.

You are right. Thanks for the feedback. I deleted that post. 

FYI - I plan on taking a leave of absence from work and going traveling for the rest of the month. I am waiting for the STBXW to sign the divorce withdrawal papers. Once the divorce withdrawal papers are signed and filed, I am out of here for a few weeks.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

Good for you box! Be selfish. Try new things. Meet people!

Remember you controll your destiny not others.

Take this time off and ask yourself what you want out of life. Look at it as a positive. There is no one you have to please other then yourself! 

Good luck and enjoy the travel time!


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I'll let you guys know when I take off  

It all depends on when the court stuff is settled.

Also, work is trying to hold me here in HK. As soon as I asked for a leave of absense, they gave me more work!

At any rate, I am going to make a concerted effort to get the hell out of here. I just have to get all my personal sh!t squared away, namely cancelling the divorce.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

The office has decided to heap a crapload of work on me. When the divorce-withdrawal papers come back, I will decide then if I am going to take a leave of absense. I want to. I've already been researching and planning my itinerary (China). I hope to start my leave of absence next week.

The anxiety has been bad the last couple of days. Want the STBXW to call. Deafening silence. I've been waking up early in the morning every morning with the vultures hovering over me. Bad thoughts galore. I hate her for what she has done to me, etc.

Been thinking ... I really don't want to be with this lady. She walked all over me for 10 years, yet I have strong feelings for her. I am very hurt over what she said the last time around. But at the same time, I wait for that phonecall. I want that breadcrumb. It hurts. I really don't want to see her again. I have to frame it such that "she pushed me away." She did. She pushed me away. There is no point in me fighting for a spot when there is no spot in the first place. I don't want to get even more hurt and disappointed. I have to move on. I have to stay busy. I don't want that phonecall. I don't want anymore breadcrumbs.

I called the maid to tell the family I am travelling for a couple of days and will be unavailable. Whenever I travel, I have to let the family know. That is another problem I have. I tend to "disappear" when I am upset. I can't do that anymore because that pisses everybody off. So, when I "disappear" I have to let them know beforehand. I did and hopefully they won't be pissed.

I will be getting out of Dodge this weekend so I don't have to stay in HK. I am going to Macau for a couple of nights to hopefully take a little break.


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## ImStillHere (Apr 25, 2012)

Enjoy your weekend away!


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

NC - it hurts. It hurts especially more when the STBXW is NCing you too.


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## Dadwithtwolittlegirls (Jul 23, 2012)

I agree.. silence is terrible on your system...

have you talked to your doctor about your suicidal thoughts. I'm on an anti-depression meds that are holding me together very well called celexa. Without it I probably wouldn't have got out of bed the last 3 weeks.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Alot of the silence is self imposed to eliminate the OCD. I disconnected my personal phone and e-mail a month ago now. I don't do FB. I left last weekend to take a breather. The feelings are still there. I feel so abused, so screwed over. She makes me out to be the monster, which is untrue. I can't talk to her because of what she did to me.

I recite the serenity prayer daily to myself. I can't change her, but I can change myself and trying.

I am seriously considering meds to kill the thoughts. I am very active and was very active last weekend, so I don't have motivation issues. I just have the "thoughts." I want the thoughts and the pain to go away. 

This morning is hard because I was telling myself, "don't expect anything." Well guess what, I didn't get anything. No messages, no nothing after the weekend. It hurts. It hurts that she had an EA (and is probably having an EA). It hurts that she took me away from my children. It hurts that I was cast aside like a piece of garbage. It hurts because I was the one who put myself in this predicament.

I really hope she sign's the divorce-withdrawal papers and sends them back to me. I want to get out of Hong Kong for awhile. I can't deal with the NC BS at work. I can't deal period.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Guys;

Trying to get out of town. Looks like it will be next Tuesday before I can leave for a few weeks.

I am experiencing a little anxiety because I haven't got the divorce-withdrawal paperwork back yet. I am wondering what is going on there. I was using this as a pre-requisite to leave because I don't want to leave town with the divorce still pending. I think I am going to let it go. I still have time to deal with it when I return. I am just stressing because I want to close it out before I go. I want to travel on a "clean slate."

In the meantime, been doing NC, the 180, and trying to "forget" about the STBXW. I've been researching forgiveness. I really want to let this hate, bitterness and anger go. I want to forgive her. But at the same time, I want to maintain NC. I don't want to go anywhere near her because I don't want to be burned again. Is it possible to forgive while maintaining strict NC ? Am I not being forgiving if I avoid her and don't want to talk to her ? Am I not being forgiving if I have a huge wall between me and her ?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Box,

The answer to your questions depends on what's in your heart.

Tell us about it.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Conrad; et al;

What I am feeling now is that I want to let go of the anger and bitterness. The only way to do that is through forgiveness. I truly want to forgive her for what she did to me and move on with my life. At the same time, I don't want to "be friends" with her. I just want to move on and protect myself from being burned by her again. I am able to forgive her and I want to. But I don't want to have any further contact with her because I don't want to get hurt again. 

Is the fact that I don't want to have any contact with her violate forgiveness? It seems like yes. It seems like I have to be friends with her, yada yada yada, blah blah blah in order to fully forgive her. I don't want to be friends with her, and I want to avoid her craziness in the future. But at the same time I want to let go of the anger and bitterness and the only way I can do that is forgiveness. 

I just want to let go, forget about her and get a move on with my life.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Box,

I understand.

It would be far better to be able to see her around and be indifferent. To finally let it go.

If the thought of being in the same room with her turns on our "fight or flight" response, you still have work to do.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

My response is a most definite "flight." If I see her I need to bail.

What work do I need to do in order to get over this response? Wait? Time?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead201 said:


> My response is a most definite "flight." If I see her I need to bail.
> 
> What work do I need to do in order to get over this response? Wait? Time?


Work on choosing your response - rather than letting emotion simply take over.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi All;

I don't have internet at home. I am at the estate clubhouse doing some data transfers. I thought I would vent a bit on TAM since I am a little depressed now.

Conrad - I've been thinking alot about your response. Why are you so good at this ? My ultimate goal is to talk to her without any emotional reactivity. My ultimate goal is to 180 her ass. My ultimate goal is to fake it till I make it. My ultimate goal is to show her I am moving on - she has no control over me (and vice versa). I live my own life without her approval. I am my own ship now.

2 days away before a 2-week vacation. Then I am out of HKSAR to go backpacking in Yunnan Province, China. I have no plans. I just have a flight to Kunming, and I am going to wing it from there. I am not bringing any electronics - except for a couple of IPod Shuffles. No connection to the outside world. 

3 weeks into complete NC. The STBXW pretty much NC's me too which makes NC much harder. Fighting depression and anxiety like mad this weekend. I called the kids and told them I am going to China until September. This is my first opportunity to travel in China. I never was able to travel in China. The STBXW never wanted to travel in China because of her paranoia. She is more comfortable in a mall and a restaurant at a luxury resort. I am more comfortable in a tent under the stars. This is my chance to show I do what I want when I want. 

Going to IC twice a week. Going to IC tomorrow before I go on vacation.

I can't stand this emotion/depression rollercoaster. It is hard sometimes. I heard from a mutual friend that my STBXW wants to be celibate for awhile. That stung. I need to explore that in IC. She could be having multiple PA's and EA's now as far as I know. Why should I care? I am aiming for indifference. I am not going to consider R with her because it will take a strike of lightning for her to change into an attractive woman to me. I'm not going to bother waiting for that lightning strike.

STBXW still has not returned divorce-cancellation paperwork. I was having anxiety all last week over it. She sent me a cryptic e-mail on Friday saying that she needs some time to sign and return to me (I did not respond). Cmon it is a simple form. She could be having second thoughts on signing. Whatever. If she signs, fine. If she doesn't sign, fine too. I don't care either way anymore; divorce or not.

My main goal right now: indifference (plus riding out the rollercoaster quietly). 

Another goal: Fill the emotional hole I have by myself. Right now I really desire companionship. I am very lonely. Unfortunately I can't rely on anybody to fill the hole for me. I have to fill it myself. I've been like this all my life - i've always relied on somebody to fill an emotional hole for me. I can't do that anymore. I have to learn how to be alone - possibly for the rest of my life.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Anxiety and depression really bad today. NC is soooooo hard. Why does it seem like NC is so easy for the STBXW?

I feel like a piece of garbage that has been thrown out. This hurts. It is all my fault. I got myself into a relationship where I was the doormat and now I am paying for the consequences. Once I refused being the doormat, I was discarded and replaced.

Serenity Prayer. I have to change myself. I have to get over this. 

Any tips on how to get over the pain of NC - especially when it is being done to you ?


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi All;

I'm off for 3 weeks. If I find a terminal I will say hello.

STBXW has been chasing me today. I remained steadfast and did not respond. She is worried about the divorce-withdrawal paperwork. She thinks that if she signs that I expect R. She wants me to accept terms of her signing - that there may or may not be R. I will accept no terms. I will no longer play her games. I will no longer deal with her "caveats" and "conditions." I will no longer speak to her. She can sign the divorce-withdrawal paperwork if she wants. She is not going to get me to accept anything. I don't care what she does - just the thing is, I will not play her games and "accept" terms. If she signs, I will wait 1-year and divorce her then. If she doesn't sign, then I will proceed with the divorce now. Doesn't matter to me either way. I have to move on and I will not play her games. I stayed silent.

Indifference and selfishness are my goals in life now.

See you.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead201 said:


> Hi All;
> 
> I'm off for 3 weeks. If I find a terminal I will say hello.
> 
> ...


Box,

Have a great relaxing vacation.

Let her stew.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I'm back. I got tired of China so I came back a few days early.

The last week I was there, the anxiety over the STBXW was not that bad. It was almost gone in fact.

Now I that I am back in HK, the anxiety is back. Kind of hard this morning. No e-mail. No phone message. No letter. No nothing from her. It hurts. However, I would prefer NC over C since C hurts more and I would like to take the lesser of two evils.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead201 said:


> I'm back. I got tired of China so I came back a few days early.
> 
> The last week I was there, the anxiety over the STBXW was not that bad. It was almost gone in fact.
> 
> Now I that I am back in HK, the anxiety is back. Kind of hard this morning. No e-mail. No phone message. No letter. No nothing from her. It hurts. However, I would prefer NC over C since C hurts more and I would like to take the lesser of two evils.


Hang in there bro.

Was thinking of you.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks for the thought Conrad. The anxiety disappeared when I talked to my kids this morning. I think that is where the anxiety was coming from - what time should I call the kids. 

I've got IC tonight so I will talk through some things with the counselor.

All in all, I have been feeling better these days. I still feel the emotional swings. I am on a high today. Most likely will crash in the coming days. 

Feels good to be home. China gets old after awhile. I think the next time I go, it will only be for a week. I went trekking around the border of Tibet. Met lots of people. It was fun.

Still nothing on the divorce-withdrawal. I am not stressing on it. She may chase me in the coming days so I can accept her "terms." I am going to let it go and ignore her "terms." I will continue to NC her because that helps me more now. I can't talk to her because I get a mess of confusing signals that hurt me. If she doesn't sign the paperwork, fine. If she does sign it, fine. I don't care either way.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I am swinging today. I am experiencing anxiety. Yesterday I was up. Today I am a little down. 

NC is hard today. I want NC and C at the same time. I am yearning for the "fantasy" STBXW to call me and set things straight. I know this is not going to happen and it hurts. If there is C, it will be the monster STBXW that will hurt me. I would prefer NC because it hurts less. But today, NC sure sucks. 

I am also stressing on the divorce-withdrawal. She hasn't signed the papers. The court date is on Sept. 12. I am wondering what I should do if she does not sign the divorce-withdrawal papers. I don't want to agree to any of her demands. I don't want to get stuck in limbo. I am swinging between continuing the divorce and stopping the divorce. However, I cannot stop the divorce without her signature. I really don't care what she does, but, I am still undecided if I should really continue this or not. I have 4 different voices in my head and I don't know which one to choose. 

I really want to let go and let "God" do the driving, but the problem is, I started this and since I started the D, I have to drive it; e.g. make the decision. I have a deadline coming up, and I can't really throw my hands up and give up. I want to. I really want to throw my hands up and give up. But I can't. I have a hard deadline coming up and I have to make the call.

All I want now is to let go of the STBXW and move on. I don't want to be subject to her abuse any longer. I don't want to do anything with the divorce. I don't want to do anything with her. I don't want her. I just want to forget about her and everything ... but I can't and that sure sucks. The divorce that I started is the major thorn in my side now. It is a thorn in my side now because it is something I have to do with her, and I don't want to do anything with her. I just want to be free from her.

PS: TAM is blocked by the great-firewall of China. I tried to post when I was in China, but I could not.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

If she does nothing, you go to court and ask for a continuance.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks Conrad.

I talked to the attorney today and asked him about this and other things. To get a continuance, the STBXW will need to appear in front of the judge. In essence she needs to cooperate. I pretty much need the STBXW for anything in this divorce, and in all fairness, I don't want to have anything to do with her. I want to just throw my hands up and let go. But I can't and that sucks and a source of stress now. 

I will wait until September 5th before I make a decision. Maybe something will magically happen between now and then. I will try to forget about this for now.

Until then I will continue the NC. It will be 30 days tomorrow! Do I get my 30-day chip?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead201 said:


> Thanks Conrad.
> 
> I talked to the attorney today and asked him about this and other things. To get a continuance, the STBXW will need to appear in front of the judge. In essence she needs to cooperate. I pretty much need the STBXW for anything in this divorce, and in all fairness, I don't want to have anything to do with her. I want to just throw my hands up and let go. But I can't and that sucks and a source of stress now.
> 
> ...


It's in the mail.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Conrad -

Thanks. I really hope you are not being sarcastic.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Guys -

I need to vent. I feel like sh!t. Nothing in the mail today. No breadcrumbs. Anxiety growing. Typically on Thursday/Friday the anxiety is up there. I am sad. I want some form of communication from the STBXW; bad or good. Nothing for 30 days now and it hurts. It really hurts. Seems like NC is a walk in the park for her. NC is the hardest thing I have ever been through in my life. Typically on Friday's she contacts me to see what the plans are for the weekend. I have to get rid of that expectation because it will hurt. I don't want any expectations from her because I am going to get hurt. But guess what, I am hurting anyways. If she does call tomorrow, I will maintain the radio silence. I am in no state to talk to her. If she does chase me, I will 180 the crap out of her. Fake it 'til you make it. All I want from her now is a signed piece of paper. That's it.

I am praying to God daily for advice on what to do about the divorce. Cancel it? Continue it? I gotta do something soon. Really frakkin' soon. I need her cooperation. If she isn't going to sign I have to make the call. The last few days I've been feeling like I should continue the divorce. I want to get it overwith. She will never change. I never want to go back to her abuse. I have to end it. But I am still indecisive. I want that fantasy STBXW to call me and tell me everything is okay. I have to remind myself I cannot live in fantasy. She is a monster now that will never change. I pray for a miracle, but I also have to be realistic.

At any rate the court date is soon and if she doesn't sign, we will be both dragged into court. I have 4 options: (a) stay, (b) cancel, (c) continue or (d) wait for her to sign. (a) - (c) requires a court appearance by BOTH of us, (d) does not require a court appearance but I am being driven nuts by how much she is dragging her feet. It seems she wants me to accept the fact that it's over. Well, if it is over, there is no point in living in R-limbo. The plan is if she does not sign by middle of next week (d), I plan on continuing the divorce. The fact that she is dragging her feet shows me she wants the divorce. I am not going to ask her again to cancel or stay the divorce. I will only ask once. If that piece of paper is not in my hands next week, I have to continue what I started - and I will not stop this time; guaranteed. This is where I need God. Does God want me to continue? Or stop?

Sorry, I am unorganized right now. I am venting. I am whining. I am hurting. I am sad. I am riding the pretty large roller coaster right now. I am 3 months in. I've been pretty good for the last month. However, I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel. I probably have a long way to go.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Keep talking to us.

If she ignores it, let the divorce go through.

You give defiant people what they want.

Think about the consequences IF she ignores it all and you STOP it.

You then show her you cannot handle conflict.

Think about that.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks Conrad.

I just will ride out the emotional storm I am experiencing now and continuing doing/reviewing NC, 180, NMMNG, Victim Triangle, IC, etc. etc. etc. I'm in the middle of a storm now. Emotional low today, but I think I can handle it.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I got my breadcrumb:



> Hope you enjoyed the trip in China.
> 
> The kids are wondering if you will come ice skating tonight and/or if they will see you tomorrow. They miss you!
> 
> Please let me/them know. Thanks.


I am hurt by this message. "They miss you!" I interpret as "They miss you, but I don't." 

I will not be responding.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> I will not be responding.


Another good decision.

many more to come. Keep at it boxhead. Just keep at it. You'll get your reward (internal peace).


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks Syn. I'm in bad shape today. Can barely keep it together at work. I am a devout follower of your "10 Commandments." But I am hurt and I am hurting bad today. I am very sad. I can't wait until COB rolls around so I can go and be away from this. I am on an emotional low.

This is all my fault. I had children with a women who trashed me. My nice guy tendencies got me into this situation. Now I am paying dearly for it.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

I know man. I totally get it. Call a friend if you can or just shoot the sh1t with someone around. Talking with people forces you to get out of your misery even if for minutes. It's those few minutes that keep you going.

There was a point during my separation when I was living life 5 minutes at a time literally. It was so tiring and painful that when I look back, I wonder if that person was really me!

You'll come out of this in one piece. I know that.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks. I can't keep it together. I am about to break down here. I am going to do a run early today. I will go a couple kilometers longer today to kill some time.


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## forumman83 (Aug 12, 2012)

boxhead, what is your support group like? good friends, family, social groups. Or, like I have in the past, are you trying to go it alone?


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## our vision shattered (May 25, 2012)

thinking of you boxhead, i'm sorry your still struggling so much & hurting so much still. keep the faith bro it does get better just takes everybody different time frames. i see that yours may take longer but the best advise i can give is get your mind as far away from it as you can, rediscover who you are again, from that your inner peace/happiness will start right away, once that happened for me & my strength & confidence came back i walked with my head high, i met a beautiful woman both inside & outside. we were going to go slow but that backfired & found my self there every night, had many sexual encounters & our feelings freaked us both out, we decided to put things on hold,remain friends & who knows the future, long winded i'm sorry but my point is the feeling of that confidence is like a drug & people will feel that & like that. words are always easier than actions but i swear if you can get there you will feel like a new man. always thinking about you box


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

synthetic said:


> I know man. I totally get it. Call a friend if you can or just shoot the sh1t with someone around. Talking with people forces you to get out of your misery even if for minutes. It's those few minutes that keep you going.
> 
> There was a point during my separation when I was living life 5 minutes at a time literally. It was so tiring and painful that when I look back, I wonder if that person was really me!


What would you have done without those 2x4's?


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Conrad said:


> What would you have done without those 2x4's?


Couldn't have made it to the 5th minute. I ate 2x4s for a good few weeks! I look boxy now.

hey! Boxhead is already a boxy! Mabye 2x4s won't work. Metal pipes?


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Guys;

Thanks for the thought. I am surprised to see my thread at the top of the list tonight! OVS - I wish I was a ladies man like you. fm83 - I am all alone in HK with very little support. I have very little family (sister in boston; mother/father long dead). I am a US expat in a sea of chinese. Here we have "star" tutors - the only place in the world.

I had the kids yesterday and that felt good. Today I went to church. I almost cried several times in church. I went to the biggest and baddest church here in HK, St. Johns. However, it is small compared to St. Pats in NYC. It was still nice. Had the pipe organs, choir, stained glass, the full deal. Then I rode 40km after. The weather here was beautiful and I took advantage of it. 

I going to have to return my 30-day chip. Had a long talk with the stbxw this weekend. I was calm and rational throughout. She was very emotionally reactive but eventually calmed down. She kept trying to get me to agree to things and I wouldn't agree to anything - except - a mutual appointment with a psychologist. She thinks I should be medicated. I don't think so. She said she will set it up and go with me. I was surprised that she was willing to set this up and go with me. I don't think I need to be medicated, but let's see what the shrink says. I am proud of myself for holding it together, keeping calm and 180ing her. I didn't freak. She gave me a present at the end of the day - a bible and signed divorce-withdrawal paperwork.

I am cautiously optimistic. I am not looking for R. I have to keep telling myself that. My ultimate goal is to divorce in June 2013 unless I see a major sea-change in her behavoir. Yesterday when I was talking to her, I told her the main issue was communication. We were not communicating when we were together. She did not know me, or even attempt to get to know me. There was no intimacy. I felt so alone. It sucked. I think I hit home when I told her I had (2) drug relapses while here in Hong Kong - and she never even knew I was on drugs (hash). Alot of our communications are still one sided and if it is still like that in June 2013, then what's the point of being married to her? She doesn't even know me anymore. However, my nice guy tendencies hid these relapses well, and I no longer want to be a nice guy.

I still will continue to be working on myself, IC, 180, no contact, letting go, moving on, etc. However, I have to modify the 180 a little bit. If she calls, I will respond answering her queries. However, I will *not* be reaching out to her. I will be letting her alone still (that's the hard part). I have to atleast respond to her in order to make her comfortable. My responses will be 180 style and business only, but I can't do complete NC anymore because it is creating anxiety not only for me, but her. In essence, I have to open up a little bit and not be totally radio silent on her. 

I feel better now. Friday was hell. It started getting better when I went running until I had some union guy yell at me for running through his wet cement. But when I saw the kids everything was better. Today was ok as well. I expect towards the end of this week, I will be anxiety ridden and upset. I need to solve that problem.

I have one issue though. I am on my second pass of NMMNG, and I am stuck on the sex section. I want to skip it because I am not a ladies man like OVS. My sex life sucked with the stbxw, and I will be unfortunately celibate for some time to come. Reading the sex section of NMMNG is a downer for me.


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## Patrick1959 (Jul 16, 2012)

Boxhead

A Navy Chaplain who is a friend told me of someone he helped recently in a situation that reminds me of yours. 

This man’s wife said that she could not deal with his inattentiveness to her and the children as well as his anger and hostility. After several counseling sessions the man became determined to change his life and be the best father and husband that he could. 

My friend took this man to a local church where the minister started an intense personal inventory. At one point he spoke with his wife and her family and asked that they make a list of everything that they thought was a personality failing. His goal was to fix all his shortcomings and he worked very hard to change. He completed the process during a deployment at sea but when he returned his wife and children had left and his wife refused any attempts at reconciliation. 

His wife’s family said that they found his flaws very minor and always believed that he was a good father and husband; and after seeing how much work he put into becoming a better father and husband they have told their daughter that she is being very foolish walking away from the marriage. 

As he continues to demonstrate to his wife and her family how much he has grown emotionally and spiritually; she becomes more angry and bitter. It seems that she has dropped the mask and she is no longer able to project her flaws and insecurity upon her husband; her blame shifting only worked when her husband was a straw man she created. 

When his wife first threatened to leave he was an emotional wreck and couldn’t see how he would get through the loss of his marriage and family. Now he is at peace with his situation; he has a better relationship with his children than he could have imagined and he has many new friends at his church. He now deals with his angry and bitter wife patiently and calmly; which really winds her up, seems that now she is the one with the anger problems. 

Since you are now seeking spiritual guidance, you may want to consider speaking with a priest to help you begin a personal inventory and seek what keeps you from finding peace. As you change it may have an effect upon your wife, she may start seeing her flaws and start making the changes that you need. If she ignores your change or becomes bitter and the divorce continues you may find yourself in a better emotional situation and will have better control of your situation. 

If you both want to work toward reconciliation a local church may help, from what you have written it may be difficult to receive support from her family, but if you can find neutral members of the church that she belongs, who you can both trust, they may be willing to support reconciliation attempts.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks for the help Patrick.

(a) I need to start doing a fearless moral inventory of myself. I am not at peace. I will discuss this in IC. I am not quite sure how to start this. I am not comfortable with the pastor(s) yet - it will take me time to approach them. Eventually I would like to talk to them. I haven't taken communion yet because I haven't confessed my sins. I am unsure what the process of confession is either. 

(b) In some ways the STBXW and myself have created "straw man's" on each other. I projected my insecurities onto her and she did the reverse to me. I projected my insecurity of adultery onto her, and she did the same back to me. e.g. I think she is cheating on me, and vice versa. I don't know if she is cheating - and I don't really care. I wished her well in this respect.

Unfortunately, my wife is the calm and collected one most of the time. I am the emotional, reactionary angry person. This is something I am working hard to change and I was able to demonstrate this over the weekend. 

I am not going to go back to somebody who has neglected me and disrespected me. I felt so alone when I was with her. I don't want that again. I lost myself when I was with her. So much so I relapsed. Chinese women treat their men like crap. Her family treats all men like crap. When I was in China, I saw other chinese families treat their men like crap. It's a culture thing. But I am not going to let the culture dictate to me that I am going to be treated with disrespect. My needs and feelings are important to me and I refuse to be in a marriage where they were constantly discarded.

In the meantime I just will be staying the self-improvement course and doing what I have been doing; and staying out of her hair. I need a balloon so I can observe at 50000ft.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Guys;

I just wanted to check-in. 

Still riding the rollercoaster. Still doing the 180, IC, church, etc. I feel better these days. Locke mentioned that he used to have an anxiety attack everyday. Now it's only once in a while. I feel the same way. Back when the separation started, I was suicidal. Now I am "eh" and getting better. I am my own man now. I feel like I have grown as a result of my self imposed separation.

I need to start seeing the kids more. It is important I be a better father to them. I had the kids yesterday. I tried to arrange to see them today but it fell through. So now the day is wasted and I am on TAM trying to make myself feel better. Perhaps I will go out and do some ham radio stuff on the boardwalk. 

I never want to go back to the STBXW's neglect and disrespect. Granted I had an equal hand at destroying the marriage. I apologized profusely for it (to her and God). The STBXW half-heartedly apologized. But I am not going back to the marriage. The marriage is over. I am not going back to a woman who treated me like sh!t. I still love and really want to be with her (2%). But I have to fake it 'til I make it. I am not going to backtrack on my hard-earned changes. My main goal right now is to divorce her in June 2013. 

The STBXW has been sending me alot of mixed signals and breadcrumbs lately (like usual). She bought me books (bible, 5-love-languages, purpose-driven life) and wrote notes of inspiration like "let's do the 5-love languages together." She said she would setup a psych appt for me (didn't happen). She said she was a terrible wife and has problems respecting others. Her talk is very cheap which is followed-up with zero action. Last month, her cheap talk and zero action would upset the hell out of me. Now I am used to the mixed signals and the breadcrumbs. I am ignoring them. I just do the 180 and it helps. The mixed signals haven't phased me lately because I know she is all talk and zero action. My boat is going north and I am not changing course for her mixed signals.

I pray for a miracle sometimes, but I know it won't happen. What I want is unrealistic. She's too busy now for me. I am not a priority in her life (ouch). The best I can do is find happiness in myself and with my children. The best I can do is change myself and continue working the "steps." She is not going to follow through with her cheap talk. No expectations of her. I only have expectations of myself. My goal is to heal, let-go and move on. I wonder ... how do I know when I truly let-go and moved-on ? I think I have let go of the marriage, but I have some work to do to let go of the STBXW. 

The STBXW has been telling the kids that it is "up to me" to come home. What a crock of sh!t. I am not going to debate her on it. Whenever I talk to her, I just calmly listen and don't debate. But it is not up to me to come home. Granted, I moved out. I moved out for a reason - I was being treated like crap for years. If she wants me to come home, she needs to have a radical change in behavoir. She also needs to "invite" me back. She needs to do some heavy lifting which ain't gonna happen. So when the kids say, "Mommy says it is up to you to come home," I get a little peeved. Not true at all. Mommy needs to learn how to treat Daddy with respect before Daddy comes home. Mommy will need to work hard at bringing Daddy home if he is ever to come home. And the way things stand right now, it ain't gonna happen. I am not going home and have accepted that fact.

I am still in alot of pain. I am venting. I am hurting a little bit today. Sorry to sound angry - I am not. The anger dissolved awhile back. I am very very grateful for this site. Without TAM, I don't know where I would be. This has been the hardest thing in my life and I really am grateful for TAM. Thanks.


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## Patrick1959 (Jul 16, 2012)

Boxhead

Great work keep pushing forward there may be some stumbling but you are going in the right direction; looking back at your original posts I can see how much progress you have made. 

There is still a long way to go but the goal is not to to change overnight but keep going in the right direction. I don't see that the 5 Love Languages or the Purpose Driven Life is going to get you going in the right direction. Your wife wants to TELL your children that you are wrong and wants you to read feel good books so that it will be as it was. 

You need to SHOW them what you have become (and this won't happen overnight); but the first person you will need to convince is yourself. Don't live in the past but use the past as an example of how you were; examine what was bad then learn from it then let it go and don't let the past control your future. 

You may want to try some different books such as The 4 Loves by CS Lewis; the third section, (EROS) romantic love, is particularly good. Another good book that may help is The Confessions of Saint Augustine. 

I think that a mistake that many people have when they know that a relationship needs to change is to be dependent upon the partner and try to change together. The problem is that if one of the partners is not committed to changing then little changes.

I think sometimes when someone knows that something needs to change in a relationship they need to do a personal inventory and then start working hard. When change happens others notice and sometimes they start feeling a desire to change as well. Sometimes it is better to lead someone into change then to stumble blindly in circles as a lost couple. 

Keep working on yourself because your children will need to learn how to treat others, and how they should expect to be treated. Perhaps one day your wife may see changes in you and want to start working on becoming the partner she should.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Going through a rough patch today (depression). Worst in awhile. I think it's because I couldn't see the kids yesterday and I ended up wasting a day waiting on the STBXW. I am a little angry that I have to wait for bones to be thrown at me. I so want to let go and move on. I won't let this happen again.

Watched half of "Blue Valentine" last night. Will finish it tonight. What a wonderful marriage that is.

I decided to shelve the 5-love-languages book because it does not make sense for me to read it now. I am still stuck on the sex-section in NMMNG - wondering if I should skip. I want to read books that focus on "me." I don't want to be focusing on my partner any longer. I don't want to read about "love languages" and "sex" because I can't practice either of them anymore.

How do I go about doing a "personal inventory" ?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I would read about partnerships.

It will be illustrative to see what you didn't have, and your contribution to it.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Here we go with the broken record... 

Getting towards the end of the week. Life seems to get harder towards the end of the week. As usual, NC is no walk in the park for me. It is very difficult. I have to "will myself" into thinking that NC is a walk in the park. To get myself through the day at work, I am doing tasks I shouldn't be doing. I am doing fun interesting stuff rather than the monotonous BS they have me working on. e.g. building a C++ FIX engine. Doing C++ is getting me through the day more quickly than filling out TPS forms. I am taking the day "5 minutes at a time" now. 

I've been having a rough week. Very emotional. The C thinks I am grieving. I am going through a bout of depression. I am experiencing "true sadness" this time as compared to "angry sadness" last time. I feel like Tom Hanks when he lost Wilson at sea. I feel the same, except my situation is different. Tom Hanks accidentally lost Wilson. I am forcibly removing all connections to better myself. But the end result is the same. I am crying like a baby just as he did when he lost Wilson. It hurts.

I am resolved to never to go back to STBXW. My primary goal is to remove all emotional connections to STBXW. R is no longer an option. She has lost me. I will not wait for her. Since we're on the subject of Castaway, I feel like a castaway in Hong Kong. I am used to it. That is my life now. Rather than having my emotional hoses hooked up to the STBXW, I have to have them hooked up to my self and be happy with it. No support network. Only TAM and IC. I am alone in a sea of Chinese people and that's ok. 

I have to remain strong. I have to "will myself" through this. I can do it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I take it you're no longer interested in delaying the divorce.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks for the response Conrad.

The divorce is cancelled for now. But my mind has been made up for awhile (past month). I will be filing again in June 2013. I can't file any earlier because I am highly emotional still. I should not have filed the first divorce because that was my anger talking. I am a little more rational now and I know a divorce is what I want. But I will not push it. June 2013 is the date.

I am not going to wait for her. I am not going to be a plan (b). I have officially given up. So in the meantime, I will be working hard to disconnect and let go. R is no longer an option for me. D is the long term goal. She will not change. I am not going to wait for a leopard to change its spots. The best I can do is pray the strength to get through this, patience and leave it up to God.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

boxhead201 said:


> Thanks for the response Conrad.
> 
> The divorce is cancelled for now. But my mind has been made up for awhile (past month). I will be filing again in June 2013. I can't file any earlier because I am highly emotional still. I should not have filed the first divorce because that was my anger talking. I am a little more rational now and I know a divorce is what I want. But I will not push it. June 2013 is the date.
> 
> I am not going to wait for her. I am not going to be a plan (b). I have officially given up. So in the meantime, I will be working hard to disconnect and let go. R is no longer an option for me. D is the long term goal. She will not change. I am not going to wait for a leopard to change its spots. The best I can do is pray the strength to get through this, patience and leave it up to God.


You're not sure what she'll do.

How is she doing for money?


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

You're right. I am not sure what she'll do. If she files for D, fine. I highly doubt she is coming around for R. Whatever she does, I don't care. I am not going to live in R-limbo and I am definitely not going back to her. All I am doing is focusing on myself and my long term goal of D. Short term, let go, move on - forget about her.

I don't know what her money situation is like. I am sending regular support payments. She is working. She has not asked for more money. She also has her family and friends for support. I have nothing here in HK - all alone.


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## mrstj4sho88 (Sep 5, 2012)

boxhead201 said:


> You're right. I am not sure what she'll do. If she files for D, fine. I highly doubt she is coming around for R. Whatever she does, I don't care. I am not going to live in R-limbo and I am definitely not going back to her. All I am doing is focusing on myself and my long term goal of D. Short term, let go, move on - forget about her.
> 
> I don't know what her money situation is like. I am sending regular support payments. She is working. She has not asked for more money. She also has her family and friends for support. I have nothing here in HK - all alone.


I think she had planned this out. She had to get to hk with family first. She used you to get what she wanted. Just know your kids need you to. So you don't need to do anything crazy.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

She said she didn't plan this, but deep down, I feel used. I am over that now.

I will not do anything crazy. 

She wants me to wait around for her. I am not waiting. My goal is to let go and move on. Forget about her. It is hard, but at the same time, it is getting better. By the time she makes up her mind, I will be long moved on.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi All;

I've hit an emotional low this weekend. Depression set in. Uncontrollable crying. This totally sucks. When will it be over?


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

boxhead201 said:


> Hi All;
> 
> I've hit an emotional low this weekend. Depression set in. Uncontrollable crying. This totally sucks. When will it be over?


Uncontrollable crying is your best indication for quick healing. Embrace it. You'll look back on this day and truly realize how much those tears helped you. I promise.

You may or may not have a few more days like this. They are an inevitable part of healing. You actually NEED them.

Don't reveal any of your struggles to your wife. If you do, your pain will get prolonged. Cry all you can. Cry yourself to bed if you have to. You'll learn to love yourself more an more with every tear.

Have you read this article yet?

DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Syn;

Yes, I read the "love to be needed" article. It was very dense. I have to reread it because it did not sink in with the first pass.

Unfortunately, I had a phone call with the STBXW and lost it yesterday. Break out the lumber. I told her I miss her and the kids. She would not let me see the kids. I told her I am sorry for everything I did. I failed at the 180 yesterday because I did not look strong. That's the only part of the 180 I violated - I was not happy and content. I was crying. I told her I am torn between "waiting for her" and "moving on." In retrospect I think I was subconsciously saying "Goodbye" in that call, even though I didn't really say it. I am resolved to move on. I've been resolved for awhile now. All indicators are telling me I must move on (TAM, IC, me).

I hope what I am feeling is really the "goodbye" sorrow of the marriage and the STBXW. It was really bad yesterday. I was riding my bike up a mountain yesterday and the whole way I kept breaking out in tears. It sucked. I hope I am finally realizing emotionally that "it's all over." This marriage is done. She will never change and I am finally waking up to that fact.

Today I feel a bit more resolved in letting go. Divorce is where I am headed. Reconciliation is not an option for me. I am not going back to her neglect and disrespect. Even now I am neglected and disrespected and I will tolerate it no more. She has this hold on me even today that I must break. I am moving on. The only way to really break that hold once and for all is divorcing.

Again, this morning I failed at the 180? I am impatient over the divorce. I really don't want to wait until June 2013. I feel if I am kept waiting, I will be in reconciliation limbo until then, and I don't to suffer. I am resolved to move on and let go. Divorce is my way of moving on. I can't stay married to a woman treats me this way. She has made clear to me through her actions that she is not willing to work on the marriage. I have given her enough time. It's been 3 1/2 months now and I have seen ZERO work on her part to try and fix the marriage. She has lost me through her inaction. I would prefer to get the divorce rolling now and get it overwith. I really want to move on with my life. So, I sent her a friendly e-mail this morning asking for her consent to continue with the divorce. A violation of the 180? I am honouring myself by saying "this is it."

The first time I filed divorce it was because I was angry. Now, I realize that divorce is the only way. This time, it is not anger talking. It is a sad and true fact that our marriage is done. She is not willing to work on it. I need to move on. I ain't waitin' any longer. The only way I can attain peace in my life is crossing this major milestone. The sooner I can get it done, the better. So, divorce is my only option now.

I have been failing the past couple of days possibly because I am an emotional wreck right now. But I know one thing for certain, I have to move on and let go and I think that's what I am feeling: true sadness over the loss of my marriage and STBXW. I have accepted that I will never go home and that hurts. Getting the divorce done will be a major milestone for me that will force me to get over her. Getting the divorce done sooner should hopefully get me through this emotional trainwreck sooner.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

boxhead,

I can sympathize, but yes you definitely deserve a truckload of lumber. Massive failure at 180, and hopefully not to be repeated again. Hold onto your balls.

As for divorce being the milestone that will help you get over her: WRONG

Divorce does nothing in resolving your feelings. If you have doubts about this, just ask people who got divorced if their feelings for their wives changed after signing the papers. They don't.

You're most likely failing at the *socializing* part of the 10 commandments I keep pushing on people.

I know you've read No More Mr. Nice Guy. I know you have tried to 'let her go'. I know you have separated finances as best as you could. I know you have limited contact with her (minus the recent failure at 180) and I know you took a decent trip by yourself. (Right?)

So this is how your situation looks:

================================================

*Synthetic's 10 Commandments*:

1. Read this link - Just Let Them Go

2. Follow the following rules:  The 180 degree rules

3. Read this short book in the next 24 hours: No More Mr. Nice Guy

4. Separate all finances and stop supporting her 'single' lifestyle 
 
5. Book a counseling appointment ASAP ?????

6. Doesn't matter how you do it, but *sweat the pain of anxiety out*. Treadmills are your best friend. Use them. This is very important: You need to physically feel spent before you hit bed every night. ?????

7. Think a lot, read a lot, and cry as needed - This particular link should be open in your browser at all times and read multiple times: DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED? 

8. Find your social worth by socializing with as many people as possible (females work better). Spend time with friends, but don't just settle for your circle of friends. This is the best time to make new ones and feel attractive/attracted. You're not looking for sex or a relationship. You're looking for natural human attraction between you and others. ?????

9. Do whatever it takes to go on a trip that involves a long flight, preferably to a country where English or your first language is not spoken

10. Start living an 'overly' fun life without feeling any guilt. This is the hardest task ahead. It's important to wash the guilt out of yourself once you have realized where it originates from via all the reading and counseling you've done. ?????

================================================


Start going over the remaining items Boxhead. They're really important. There were 1000 other things I could've put in that list, but really, these were carefully picked among MANY things that I tried and observed people trying.

How many female friends do you have that you regularly converse with? What are you doing to add more of them to your life? What are you doing to have lots of fun and laughter everyday?

Don't be talking to your wife about ANYTHING. I really mean, ANYTHING. Start a new life, get comfortable with it and then proceed with the whole divorce bullsh1t, because that's what divorce is: BULLSH1T.

Signing those papers will do nothing for your emotional healing.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks for the tough-love Syn. I'm ready for some tough-love. I feel like I massively failed too. I feel like I am going through a massive emotional bout right now. Got the pain deep in the pit of my stomach.

I give up. I don't know what to do really. I want to move on with my life. I don't want to be married anymore. I don't want to have any connection to the STBXW. I want to move on. My way of moving on is eliminating *all* connections to her. Marriage is the last thing. If I am married to her, I feel like I can't move on. I don't want to be her plan (b) and I don't want to wait around for her while she "decides." 

I have no friends in HK. Really. I HAVE NO FRIENDS HERE. Nothing. I don't drink. I don't do the bar scene. The locals here are standoffish. It has been very difficult for me to make friends here. All of the friends I had are now gone because they were family friends. I am literally all alone here living a monastic life. It sucks. 

I have been focusing on myself exclusively for the past few months now. I have been reading. Going to IC. Getting a crapload of exercise. I really don't think the 180/NC is working for me. The STBXW could care less if I contact (or don't contact) her. All I get is the cold shoulder from her (that really hurts). I know the 180 is for me. I know NC is for me. I am not using the 180/NC to get her back. But the 180/NC is isolating myself further seems to making the problem worse and not better. 

I am considering leaving HK because I really do hate it here. There are too many triggers here for me. I have no social life here. There is nothing here for me anymore except my children. Everytime I see my children it really hurts because I get reminded of my loss.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I went to church tonight and prayed. I have forsaken God. I am unable to surrender to Him to fix the marriage. I keep taking matters into my own hands. I want to give up. I want to let go. I want to surrender. I was begging Him to free me from this pain. I wish He would tell me what to do in this case. 

I want to be free and I think the divorce will set me free. Or will it? I dunno. I don't want to live in R-limbo. I am drawing the line in the sand and saying, "that's it." I will take no more of your BS. I probably will be a wreck after the divorce too, but I would prefer to get it overwith sooner rather than later. R is not possible here. 

I have been living in a prison for the past 4 years in HK. For the past 3 1/2 months I have been living in solitary confinement. I am going nuts. I want to break out.


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## ImStillHere (Apr 25, 2012)

Since you have been seeking God for help, I'll offer this Bible verse that has been helpful to me: Romans 5:1-5. 

You're doing well, box. Just know that this is merely a (huge) bump in the road to a better life for you. 

Don't think that you are failing. You are persevering! 

We all have felt what you're feeling. But you will feel better _in time_. It is cliche, but patience really is a virtue. And, this is coming from a hugely impatient individual.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> I am considering leaving HK because I really do hate it here. There are too many triggers here for me. I have no social life here. There is nothing here for me anymore except my children. Everytime I see my children it really hurts because I get reminded of my loss.


You should do this.

Your children will understand in time. You have to build a support network. The 180/NC/Manning up and all that stuff are useless if you are not able to turn your progress from theory to practice. Your social life is exactly where your progress gets manifested and measured.

I don't know why you find it so hard to find friends. Why avoid the bar scene? Why be alone? What the hell have you got to lose at this point? Open up man. Open up to the world. You don't even have to speak the same language as others to feel good about their company.

In any case, go where you have support. Your wife and your children are not your support network right now.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Go tell people about this website - about these two spectacular alpha males that pound the table until guys find their masculinity again.

When they ask for the names of those guys? Just give them the web address and tell 'em to read and figure it out.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks ISH, Syn, Conrad;

I think Syn and Conrad are the alpha males. You can't get more alpha than them.

I avoid the bar scene because (a) it bores me and (b) I am a recovering alcoholic. I haven't drank in more than 10 years. It's hard for me to find friends because I put all my eggs in the STBXW's basket and I wasn't allowed to have my own friends. When I had my own friends, I was accused of adultery. I am an introvert and quiet by nature. My sister is the loud and boisterous one. I tend to like to do things by myself better (I need to change that). I don't do FB, Twitter and all that. The C says I don't let people build bridges to me which is why I don't have friends.

I am going through a really bad bout of depression now. Got that feeling deep in the pit of my stomach that I can't shake. I am experiencing all sorts of emotions today ... anger and sadness. I am holding it together as best as I can. I am looking forward to IC tonight.

No response from the STBXW on the divorce request e-mail. I don't care. Patrick said "what's the hurry." I want to get this overwith, but Patrick (and Syn) are right. Divorce probably won't cure me. To me, divorce is a major milestone. I want to put this terrible nightmare behind me as soon as possible which is why I want to get it done sooner rather than later. 

There is nothing for me in HK. My STBXW has got access to the kids locked down. For the last 2 weekends, I wanted to see the kids on Sunday only to be denied. I am not allowed access any other time except Fri/Sat. Fri/Sat isn't enough for me. If life is going to be like this for the long term, then I have no reason to stay in HK. I have no support network in Hong Kong (or anywhere). Only bad memories. I want to break out of my prison. I especially want to get out of "solitary confinement."

The STBXW is filling the kids heads with lies about me and will probably continue to do so. There is no point in debating the STBXW on it. I am in a no-win situation. The best I can do is "give up" and "move on." The best way I think I can move on is getting out of Dodge for good.

I reached out to my managers today and let them know that I intend to leave Hong Kong. I will be exploring a transfer to another region. Perhaps a change of scenery will help my recovery. I am still 8 months away from leaving HK, but when I was with Lehman, it took me a whole year to get to here; so 8-months isn't that much time.


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## our vision shattered (May 25, 2012)

So sorry your still really struggling box, it tears me up, hopefully you can find your peace, i have friends that'll go to the bars & only drink cranberry or pineapple juices, even a non alcoholic beer? All i know is it helps to get out, lift your head high, put your chest out & meet & smile at people, thinking about you always box


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## Patrick1959 (Jul 16, 2012)

Boxhead

Have you considered reconnecting with the local Alcoholics Anonymous, sitting through a meeting may help you see how far you have come, 10 years sober is a great accomplishment. I have had several alcoholics in my family and in the family of close friends; the majority lost the battle and most died from conditions that were related to alcohol abuse. Reworking through a twelve step program again may help with your state of mind. 
Also it seems that it will be hard for you to establish a healthy relationship with your children as long as your wife needs to control the visits. How will visitation work when you leave HK? It may be better to have fewer visits but have more time with fewer distractions with your children. It also seems that the political environment may be starting to deteriorate, there seems to be some building hostility toward Japan; do you think this will spill over toward westerners? If you wife is paranoid about going into China she may get very nervous when you tell her you are leaving.


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## Traggy (Jan 26, 2012)

boxhead201 said:


> I went to church tonight and prayed. I have forsaken God. I am unable to surrender to Him to fix the marriage. I keep taking matters into my own hands. I want to give up. I want to let go. I want to surrender. I was begging Him to free me from this pain. I wish He would tell me what to do in this case.
> 
> I want to be free and I think the divorce will set me free. Or will it? I dunno. I don't want to live in R-limbo. I am drawing the line in the sand and saying, "that's it." I will take no more of your BS. I probably will be a wreck after the divorce too, but I would prefer to get it overwith sooner rather than later. R is not possible here.
> 
> I have been living in a prison for the past 4 years in HK. For the past 3 1/2 months I have been living in solitary confinement. I am going nuts. I want to break out.


Stop praying for specific things and pray for joy. The quicker you let go and stop trying to control your life the way you want it to be, your answers will come to you.

A piece of paper does not set you free, your own mind does. You are making a choice to not be set free consciously. Be it playing the victim, self -worth issues, or general denial. 

Stop praying to god to fix the marriage. I have said this once and I will say it again. Pray for joy, pray for happiness, pray for other people besides the divorce. 

"God laughs when we try to make plans"


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks OVS; Patrick; Traggy;

I went to church and prayed for joy tonight. I prayed to be released from my pain so I could serve God better. I didn't pray for the marriage or anything like that. I prayed for myself to get through this. I prayed for strength and happiness.

There isn't much of an AA scene in HK. The AA scene in the US was vibrant. Not HK. I will dig deeper in the coming days to see if I can find a good AA group. I will try for NA as well, and whatever "A"'s may exist in HK. I come from an alcoholic family. Grandfather died of alcoholism. Father and Mother were alcoholics. I am a recovering alcoholic and drug addict.

The anger has been extreme the past couple of days. I thought I was over the anger issue. And then boom - massive anger - especially today. Nothing but rage. I was surprised to have it come back.

I was a little social today. Went to lunch with the team. Turned out well. I like to do lunches and stuff like that - I am more comfortable in those types of social situations. Bars bore me. I am always on the go. I have to keep moving. I am like a shark. I will die if I stop moving. I like to get out and exercise. Got a sailing trip planned this Saturday.

I don't plan on leaving HK immediately. This is a long term plan (within a year). I still have to find positions elsewhere. I need to update my CV. I am not leaving tomorrow. But I will leave one of these days. There is nothing left for me here but bad triggers. The job opps suck in HK for Finance IT. It is better in Singabore and the Phillippines, so I will try for a shot there.

I am not worried about things I should probably be worried about. I am not worried about the JP/CN island thing. I am not worried about getting laid off. I am not worried about alot of things. What I am worried about and I experience the most angst over is my failed marriage and my horrible STBXW. I desperately want to get rid of this worry.

I have an appointment with a psychiatrist tomorrow to be evaluated for meds.

Question: How can I do NC without going crazy waiting for breadcrumbs from the STBXW ?

Question: What are some tips I can use to get myself into an indifferent state ?


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> Question: How can I do NC without going crazy waiting for breadcrumbs from the STBXW ?
> 
> Question: What are some tips I can use to get myself into an indifferent state ?


Commandments 6, 8 and 10 are specifically for reaching that state.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Guys;

I've been failing pretty badly this week. I have to stop this.

I am going through a bad bout of depression now. I feel alot of anger and rage inside. I saw the psychiatrist today and he thinks I don't need to be medicated. He gave me sleeping pills.

Unfortunately I have been unleashing on my STBXW via e-mail. We've been fighting through e-mail all week. 

I don't care if I am pushing her away. I know R is not on the cards. D is my goal.

But I failed. I failed the 180/NC. I have to stop this sh!t. I have to stop the e-mail fighting. I have to let go. 

I am totally codependent and trying to get my fix now. I have to stop it and stay sober. I failed. I need a sponsor.

Break out the lumber.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

First tell us about the conversations.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

boxhead201 said:


> Hi Guys;
> 
> I've been failing pretty badly this week. I have to stop this.
> 
> ...


It's hard as hell brother.

You don't kick the junk over night.

Fake it until you make it.

Your awareness is your path to freedom.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I am afraid to  It is a fairly long e-mail thread spanning all this week. I will be very embarrassed to post it. I will get grilled hardcore. I deleted it from my work account so I don't OCD on it. I doubt she will respond tonight. If she does, I may post the thread.

I just wrote a bunch of BS on how I want a divorce and how I will never go back to her abuse (neglect and disrespect). I told her there will never be reconciliation and I want to move on. I told her I will not stay in HK because she took everything away from me and there is nothing left for me here. She said I was emotionally abusing her, and I turned it around and told her she not only emotionally abused me more, but stole all of my money, took the children away from me and had an affair. She said she "cared" for me and "understands" me. I told her that she does not care for me nor does she understand me and I proved it. I told her that she treated me like an insect; a mosquito that buzzes in your ear. I told her that she treated me like a stray dog looking for a bone. I told her that her Facebook friends are a higher priority than the marriage. I told her that she was violating biblical law by walking out on me. I told her that she was selfish for destroying the marriage. I told her that the kids will eventually understand that it was her selfishness that forced me to move away.

I should not have been talking to her. I was feeding on fighting a fight with her and I kept it going for the past 2 days. I fought a good fight, but in retrospect, I am way in the wrong. I got a bigtime codependency fix through this. I backpedaled in my recovery. I should have remained strong and kept my mouth shut. At the same time, what did this fight get me? Nada. A drug fix, nothing more.

I am embarrassed. Come tomorrow morning I can't keep doing this. I was doing this all day today at work. I am going to get fired.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

In other words, you were appealing to her for victim status.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Okay, you got some stuff out of your system. Yet another failure as you correctly recognized it.

As Conrad said, don't lurk around feeling like a victim much. I know it's appealing and somewhat true to think that you got shafted by your wife, but it does you no good. She should have no effect on how your days go anymore. Try to keep it that way. 

I don't know what else to tell you man. You already know it all! The commandments!


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## Patrick1959 (Jul 16, 2012)

Boxhead

White Knuckling? 

You're reminding me of someone on a prolonged dry spell who has not worker through the 12 steeps or needs a refresher. Start the program and seek a sponsor, perhaps is AA online. I noticed the Mariner's club has meetings, there are many alcoholics in the merchant fleets and HK is a major port, perhaps some people you can connect with. 

Most alcoholics who I have known who have not completed a 12 step program will find something to fill the void often Pornography or gambling. Hostility and self loathing are common traits. 

Good Luck and keep fighting. 

I'll see if I can find more resources.


Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions

Hong Kong International Convention

http://www.aa-hk.org/HK05meetings.htm


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## forumman83 (Aug 12, 2012)

Box, have you heard of a website called "meetup.com?" I haven't actually used it but I believe its a place where people can set up meetings with others who enjoy the same types of hobbies. If you are struggling right now to make friends, maybe something like that can help. 

You should also understand that as you heal and become whole again, the world will open up to you. First, you obviously need to take care of yourself. Just know that you are not doomed. Remember, it's ALWAYS darkest before the dawn. ALWAYS.

Every day you are getting better, even if you don't realize it. 6 months from now, if you play your cards right and focus on YOU, you will wake up happy and ready to attack the day. 

So make the choice. Do you want to wallow in your own misery or take every day as a chance to get a little bit better. Expand your timeline from hours, days, and weeks, to six months and beyond.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi All;

Thanks for the help. Update or no update.

Went to the Mariner's Club. Didn't find a meeting that quite fit my timing. I will keep searching.

Will have a look at meetup.com when I get a chance.

I went on sailing trip on Saturday. I forced myself to be social. In the morning I asked a girl a question on how she did the knots on her boat. She was visibly nervous. I didn't let that turn me away. By the end of the day, she opened up and was more comfortable with me. So it was a little success socially. 

I went to church today and did a 40km bike ride. I forgot my camera. Should have brought it. It was a nice ride - although an ass kicker. 

I think I have the last round of depression licked. I am not happy over my behavoir last week. Not happy at all. I told her I am dating again (I am not). I am still getting waves of anger, but I have to make sure not to act on it. I don't want to continue to be an ass.

Been reading Anthony DeMello's article on awareness. I think I got it from Orpheus' sig. t is a good read. Very enjoyable. For some reason while I am reading the article, it reminds me of Conrad.

I am coming up to a 4-day weekend in HK. I am going to go traveling again. I booked a plane ticket to Palawan in the Phillippines. Didn't get any hotels. I am just going to wing it. Palawan is supposedly the defacto diving/snorkeling destination in the Phillippines. Problem is that I am going off season. Doesn't matter. I don't want to hang around HK for a 4-day weekend, so I am getting out of town next weekend.

With the help of what I have been reading in the DeMello article I hope that NC/180 will be a piece of cake. I don't intend on contacting the STBXW. I am still getting waves of feelings (mainly anger), but I just have to let it pass and don't act on them.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

>>For some reason while I am reading the article, it reminds me of Conrad.<<

Smiling


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## Orpheus (Jul 6, 2012)

the DeMello book (which i either stole from the sage advice of Conrad, UpnDown, Syn or somebody else - happy to pay it forward) is very good for those manic episodes where you feel like your behavior is starting to slip out of your control.

i'm a bit softer on your hate mail incident as posted above. i did a similar thing about two weeks ago. it wasn't necessary but it helped me clear out the gutters and establish boundaries. if blowing up at her became a habit, i wouldn't advise this. 

sounds like you've got an active social life planned out for yourself over the next week! that's awesome.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Everyone;

I just wanted to let y'all know I am still around.

I was in the Philippines a couple of weeks ago and had a great time - with 3 girls I met on the road. I've kept in contact with one of them since. The girls are not from the Philippines - they were from China. We hooked up and hung out together for the weekend. Don't worry, no hanky panky - well, a little bit with one of them. 

For some reason, I keep thinking of "OVS," the ladies man. 

I will be going to Thailand today - alone. Last time I've been to Thailand, I've been to prostitute tourist traps. This time I want to find a place that is not a tourist trap. I think I found such a place and I am going there today.

I find that when I travel, I am more social. I meet many people. 

I will be bringing NMMNG as my only reading material and really focus on that. I just finished DeMello today. Good stuff.

All in all, I've been well the past couple of weeks. Very busy. 

I have not communicated with the STBXW for almost 4 weeks now. I don't plan to. 

I just wanted to give an update. I hope everyone is well.


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## our vision shattered (May 25, 2012)

so so happy to hear from you my friend, way to go !!!!!!!


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## Dreald (Aug 30, 2012)

boxhead201 said:


> I had a very bad day.
> 
> I called my wife to ask for the marriage counselor. I got the cold shoulder. Sounds like she is done. Marriage counselor is unavailable until Monday.
> 
> ...


Good for you for taking the steps to protect your financial investments. What are the law in your State regarding the house? In NC, once you add your wife to the deed, our State considers it a "gift" to the marriage, regardless of how much either spouse contributed. Is yours the same? 

I would march down right now to an attorney's office and have an hour consultation immediately. He/she will be able to guide you as to your next steps to protect YOUR interests and how to move forward.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

How's it going everybody? I hope everyone is as well as they can be. 

I've been separated for almost 5 months now. I have been in IC regularly. I have been attending church sporadically. I am apart of a bible study group now called BSF. 

I've been in NC since October 1. Complete and absolute NC. I have not failed. I received an e-mail from the STBXW a couple of weeks ago saying she wanted to "talk." I did not respond. 

And then tonight. The STBXW used the kids to call me. The kids never call me at 7pm. "The force" told me something was up. Something was up. The STBXW got on the phone and started yapping. I hung up. She called back. I asked her to "please leave me alone, not call back, and I am hanging up now. Have a good night." She called back a few more times and I did not accept the call.

Then I got a text at 9:10pm saying that she wants to "rebuild our relationship." I should not have responded. But I did, and I unfortunately played the "victim" card. I said, "I don't believe you. I can never trust or rely on you again after what has happened. You used me, stole everything from me, had an affair and abandoned me. I have to protect myself from that ever happening again. There is no relationship between us. Please leave me alone."

Ok, please break out the 2x4s. I've been doing so good! Literally, really good! I've been happy. I've been enjoying life. I still carry alot of anger towards her and I am not ready to talk to her. I sometimes feel like I am being pulled into of a "black hole" of hate and anger. I desperately want to forgive her and move on, but I obviously have not yet. I am not ready to talk to her, and I may never be ready.

All I want now is for her to leave me alone.

And in the interest of full disclosure, I have been having fun. Fun with the women. In some ways, I feel like that this is the best time of my life. Despite this horrible experience that I've been through with my STBXW, I've had the most fun I've had in years.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Box,

She finally misses you.

Good job.

BTW, I'm really impressed with your progress.

You can now deal with her from a position of strength.

Stay @50,000 feet - like you are meeting her for the first time.


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## lostinspaces (Oct 22, 2012)

Wow Box. I just finished reading your story and I have to say, well done. 

I can't imagine sticking to the NC like you did. Good job. 

My biggest fear is what you are going through. That I will start to move on and somehow get pulled back into a relationship with the stbxw (a cheater). I would always be waiting for her to do it again. 

Sounds like you have moved on and know where you want to go. Stay strong.


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## BigMac (Oct 29, 2012)

lostinspaces said:


> My biggest fear is what you are going through. That I will start to move on and somehow get pulled back into a relationship with the stbxw (a cheater). I would always be waiting for her to do it again.


Remember I predicted you "something" like this ? ... 

@Box 

You made my day ! So proud of you ! Have a great T-day


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

boxhead201 said:


> How's it going everybody? I hope everyone is as well as they can be.
> 
> I've been separated for almost 5 months now. I have been in IC regularly. I have been attending church sporadically. I am apart of a bible study group now called BSF.
> 
> ...


The grass is never really greener for a wayward is it?

You sound great, Box.

Stay on course.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## oncehisangel (Oct 13, 2012)

box.. *grins

inspiring growth as a person coming out the other side.

God Bless your new life.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I appreciate the positive feedback everyone. But this morning I feel like I failed. I feel like I lost it last night by playing the "victim" card. I still play the "victim" card. I desperately want to let the past go. I know for certain I am never going back to that. I am happy now and "free." But what I am upset about is that in my communication with the STBXW last night, I was still playing the victim card and holding on to the past. I am not happy about my behavoir. In future communications with her, I do not want to play the victim card.


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## J Valley (Jun 28, 2012)

OP, I read some of your stories here. I understand that your wife is Asian? I normally refrain from commenting about relationships involving different cultures (being me ignorant and all) but from what little I understand, most Asians hold strong values in their relationships. Did you ever find out what made her want to separate in the first place?


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

boxhead201 said:


> I appreciate the positive feedback everyone. But this morning I feel like I failed. I feel like I lost it last night by playing the "victim" card. I still play the "victim" card. I desperately want to let the past go. I know for certain I am never going back to that. I am happy now and "free." But what I am upset about is that in my communication with the STBXW last night, I was still playing the victim card and holding on to the past. I am not happy about my behavoir. In future communications with her, I do not want to play the victim card.


Wallowing it in Box will not do anything for future endeavors.

Learn from it.

Move on.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

How's it going everyone? Merry Christmas from Hong Kong. I've got some rambling/venting for y'all.

Things are getting confusing for me now and a bit stressful.

The STBXW has been chasing me and wants me back now. I have been cautiously observing her over the past couple of weeks. I go and have dinner with her and the kids every now and then. The XMIL is in the hospital and is terminal and I went to visit the XMIL as well. The STBXW was really impressed that I came to visit the XMIL. I went to visit the XMIL because I think it is important to visit anybody on the deathbed - even if they are your enemy. The STBXW is really pushing me to get back together with her (crying, apologies, using the kids, using scripture, etc). So much so that it is causing me a bit of stress that is spilling over into my other relationships. 

To be upfront and honest, I told the STBXW that I am actively dating other women. Initially, I kept lying to her about my personal life. I felt it was wrong to lie, so I opened up a little. I didn't tell her the details, but I told her that I am seeing other women now. Doing this is probably not in my best interest from a legal perspective, but it relieves me a bit because I think integrity is important.

I now have a GF whom I like very much. My GF is aware of my situation. The STBXW sort of sent me into a emotional tailspin last Friday. I went to try to break up with my GF, but on the way up, I thought to myself, I don't think what I am doing is right. I am getting manipulated. That caused me to have problems with my GF last weekend. I almost broke up with my GF last Friday but I decided not too because I love her now and not the STBXW. I am now in damage control mode with my GF. I don't want to lose the GF. 

I am not quite sure what to do now. Go back to the marriage? I am not motivated considering what happened to me in the past. I think it is important that the kids have a father who is around, but the marriage is broken. I don't want to go back to a broken marriage. I am much happier now. Distracted with a GF? I dunno. But I am much happier now, albeit stressed.

For the short term, I am not going to let the STBXW send me into a tailspin like she did last Friday. The big takeaway from this latest debacle is that I need to remain outwardly strong and that if I am feeling stressed, keep it to myself (and TAM), and not let my stress poison my other relationships. Last Friday, the stress of my STBXW chasing me caused me to nearly destroy my relationship with my GF. I must remain strong and observe the STBXW for awhile to see whether or not R is an option. In the meantime, I want to maintain the status quo with my GF. It is important for me to spend time with the kids, so I will keep making regular appearances to see the kids. I also must maintain my boundaries and the STBXW is pushing them. 

Even if I didn't have a GF, I don't think I would go back to the marriage now. I am not ready. The STBXW still blames me alot whenever I talk to her. I don't fight her on anything now - even if I disagree emphatically with. I just nod my head and acknowledge what she says. But internally, I still carry alot of anger towards her. I know I should "forgive" her, but I haven't really been able to yet. 

I originally had a 2 week vacation planned for Cambodia/Vietnam with the GF for XMas/New Years. I cancelled that trip so I can be around for the kids in case the XMIL passes on. I almost cancelled my GF as well, but I quickly concluded that was not in my best interest. I am going to do a shorter trip with the GF instead (somewhere in China). In retrospect I should not have cancelled anything. I am a bit sore that I let my STBXW manipulate me. But since the damage is done, I will use this as a learning experience for the future. Don't let her manipulate me again!

Thoughts?


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

boxhead201 said:


> How's it going everyone? Merry Christmas from Hong Kong.
> 
> Things are getting confusing for me now and a bit stressful.
> 
> ...


My thought is this.

What do you want?

Going to edit this to add more.

Your ex is 'pushing' you or 'making' you do anything.

If you feel that way, you are still giving her way too much power over you.

Even months later, after everything that's happened.

How long have you been with your new girl?


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

1. How do I know what I "want" ? How do I go about finding "what I want" ?

2. How do I know if I am in a "FOG" ?

3. Am I having an affair ?


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## NoWhere (Oct 2, 2012)

boxhead201 said:


> 1. How do I know what I "want" ? How do I go about finding "what I want" ?
> 
> 2. How do I know if I am in a "FOG" ?
> 
> 3. Am I having an affair ?


I'd ask myself not what you 'want', but what you don't want? And that is to be miserable and confused again like you are now because of this women.


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