# Plagued With Ambivalence on Leaving the Relationship



## Carl Jensen (10 mo ago)

First, I want to say thank you to all the members on this forum. Just reading has been helpful. Now I feel compelled to tell my story in hopes that I can get some feedback.

I am crippled with indecision on leaving my marriage of 10 years. 2 kids (7 and 4). On paper, we are great. Nice neighborhood. Good friends. Financial success. We have had really good times and really bad times. She is not a BAD person by any means, but I have been unsatisfied for a while. She has said the same.

3 weeks into a physical separation. I initiated this when the home environment got too toxic. Kids were asking questions and it was visceral at times. 


My issues with the marriage:
-HUGE communication gap.

There is no safe place to talk about missed expectations/ needs. Almost every time I try to address anything, it is interpreted as "negative" and is either 1) negated or 2) pivoted to pointing out that she has gaps that are not being met either. These conversations spiral into arguments almost every time and hardly anything gets resolved. Also, she does not use collaborative communication. Plenty of blaming, cutting off, and sometimes screaming.

-Lack of appreciation.

I am the breadwinner and work 50-60 hours for my w2 job. We are also into real estate and I work to flip houses and manage rentals. I am usually working 70 hours a week or so, plus my primary home duties (cut grass, fix things, cleaning, dishes,). I mainly get feedback that I am not doing enough. "Why didn't you get the litter box" "I can't believe you didn't move the piano yet" " When are you going to renovate our backyard?" She is stay home (which is a job for sure with the kids). I am just tired of others telling me how much I am busting ass and then not getting that from my wife.

-Lack of sexual fulfillment

Our sex life was never crazy or wild but it is/was "good" at some points. She was always hesitant to try new things and most of the time it is very vanilla. I've asked her to try some new stuff, however only a few things have come into play. I still have done some relatively basic stuff with my high school girlfriend that my wife refuses. She rarely initiates sex, despite me asking her to do so. Also, she doesn't make any extra effort to be sexy. I've asked her to wear something other than normal underwear and sweats, but she refuses saying that she doesn't have $ to buy them. I gave her $, but they never got bought. Also, she doesn't trim down there much. Says she doesn't have time. I'm not pushy with this stuff but suggest things like "Hey, it would be so sexy if you would shave down there tonight. I'll watch the kids so you can take an extra long shower." or " Hey, why don't you wear that black thing tonight to bed?". It's very hard for me because I get approached by other women when I am out in public. I turn them down and then I feel like I am getting turned down when I come home. It's not sustainable for me. This is my love language.

-Violent Behavior

Although it is rare, she has gotten violent. The worst was when she hit me in the face during an argument and then called the police... on me. I was trying to deescalate, but she pushed the door open and hit me. That was the only time it has gotten physical. All other times it was throwing things or hitting the wall. She screams at me sometimes and says really hurtful things when she is upset "You are only a paycheck." "The kids would be fine without you" " I am not longer in love with you". 


We are 2 months into our 4th attempt at couples therapy. I told her going into this that I was at the end of my tolerance and that we needed to put it all into this round. All the chips are on the table. I warned her that any harsh language or attack at our relationship could kill it for me at this point. I also told her if she said she was done at any point, then I would take that literally and take that as a queue to be out myself. Since we started in Jan, she has said she wanted a divorce 3-4 times. She also said that she was not in love with me anymore. She usually reverses these statements later, but they still stick for me. The last time she did this was a week ago and I am stuck. She wants to "work on things" now, but I am emotionally drained and my boundaries have been trampled through this process. I don't feel she is invested and frankly I'm not sure I am. Can't stop thinking about the kiddos.

I'm lost here. Please help

Thanks,

C


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

How many more times does she have to tell you and show you that you’re nothing but a paycheck to her?
Have you ever heard the saying “if you have an ass ride him”? This is what your wife is doing and despite all your threats you have never done anything about it. 
Your wife tells you seemingly on a weekly basis that she wants a divorce. It’s time for you to give her what she wants.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

It sounds like the two of you don't spend enough time together. You have your realm and she has hers. Where do you two meet? No wonder you are just paycheck. Personally, I think you two should rethink your finances and find a way for you to spend a lot more time together and see where that takes you. This means you will have to stop working as much or you will do nothing at home and hire out for the lawn and other things, then spend that time together.

I've been a homemaker for almost 30 years. First I cared for our children, then I cared for my mother, who we shared a home with. I expect very little from my husband around the house. He works for a paycheck. When he comes home, we make sure we spent time together every night. If we didn't do that, we'd probably be in the same spot you are in.

On the other hand, if she's said she wants a divorce, tell her to go get a job immediately. The kids would be in daycare, but that's where they'll be if you two divorce. Maybe you should try her working for a while along with figuring out how to spend more time together, then see if that works.

Also, if you're just a paycheck to her, is she just a babysitter to you? I'd ask her how she feels about that idea.


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## Carl Jensen (10 mo ago)

Cynthia said:


> It sounds like the two of you don't spend enough time together. You have your realm and she has hers. Where do you two meet? No wonder you are just paycheck. Personally, I think you two should rethink your finances and find a way for you to spend a lot more time together and see where that takes you. This means you will have to stop working as much or you will do nothing at home and hire out for the lawn and other things, then spend that time together.
> 
> I've been a homemaker for almost 30 years. First I cared for our children, then I cared for my mother, who we shared a home with. I expect very little from my husband around the house. He works for a paycheck. When he comes home, we make sure we spent time together every night. If we didn't do that, we'd probably be in the same spot you are in.
> 
> ...



Thanks Cynthia. Great insights. She doesn't feel like just a babysitter to me. She actually apologized for the "only a paycheck" comment after the fact, however it came from a real place when she originally said it. When not fighting, we spend time together on the weekends and sometimes on weeknights. We go out with and without kids. We have both decided on any professional things I undertake (promotions/real estate) and we are clear about the implications on my time away from the family. We weigh out what is most important to us and make a joint decision. ie. "this new job requires I travel X days a month, are you good with that? ". At this point I don't have the motivation to hang out with her. Why would I want to hang out with someone who said she doesn't love me or says they want a divorce? I am seriously contemplating leaving this all together.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

@Carl Jensen, I don't blame you for lacking motivation when she treats you like that. I think she needs to get a job. Does she have job skills, experience, or education? If not, it would be much cheaper for you and easier for her, if she were to go back to school and get trained for a career. There are lots of careers that only require a two year degree, but provide a living wage. I'd recommend you start talking to her about being able to support herself and think about how you are going to divide things up.


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

Carl Jensen said:


> I also told her if she said she was done at any point, then I would take that literally and take that as a queue to be out myself. Since we started in Jan, she has said she wanted a divorce 3-4 times. She also said that she was not in love with me anymore.



???

So, you told her if she said she was done at any point you would be out yourself.

Well, she'd told you 3 to 4 times since you said this that she wants a divorce.

Say what you mean and mean what you say OP.

You are not walking your talk.

Look, I'm not telling you to divorce her, I'm telling you to say what you mean and mean what you say and not just to your wife, but to your kids, your friends, coworkers, neighbors etc.

And you are NOT saying what you mean and meaning what you say. 

Mind you, I have no idea if your wife is like this too, but this is your post and I may only go by what you wrote in your post to us.

You can't expect change by saying one thing and doing another.

Do you want her to be the "bad guy" and file for divorce? So you may tell yourself and others that she was the one who filed and not you? Maybe that's why you're making empty threats and not following through with what you say, hoping she'll get tired of it and end it herself.


Leaving the above now, it takes TWO to make a marriage work and right now it doesn't look like either one of you want to really work on things.

It's time for both of you to be adults, talk and come to an agreement.

Either BOTH of you will really work like hell on this together or the two of you need to end it. If only one of you wants to work on it, end it as that won't work.

Don't sit on the fence and slowly circle the drain OP and that's what you've been doing to this point in time. The drain is coming up on you more quickly now but it might still take another year or so and you'll be miserable in the meantime and it will be more time you'll never get back.

So again, both of you need to agree to really work on it or to end it. Those are your two choices. Trying to split the difference only adds to your pain and misery.

Sorry and good luck to you.

Last point. WHAT do you think this is doing to your children?

Whether you like it or not, you ARE modeling to them what a marriage and a relationship is supposed to look like.

I mean, you must be OK if they end up in a relationship like this themselves one day. If not, you need to change your relationship by either both working on it, really working on it or by ending it.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I’m not reading anything here that is a reason for you to stay in the situation.


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> I’m not reading anything here that is a reason for you to stay in the situation.


I may be wrong, but I'm almost positive that OP knows this. 

OP, we know it's difficult, in so many ways. I thought I was failing by divorcing. It hurt to not have things be the way I always wanted them to be, expected them to be, counted on them to be etc.

It's emotional and it takes folks sometime to "unwind" all of these emotions and things in their intertwined lives together.

I think OP knows the score in his head, in his mind, he's just waiting until his heart catches up to his head.

On the other hand, some folks live like this in purgatory for 30, 40 years or more, which is why I said what I did in my comment above as I don't want to see OP do that to his children and to himself.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

The problem is you don’t want to see the truth because you are so involved in the situation and have so much sunk cost. People say what their hidden truths are when they are upset. She has not only shown you that she isn’t in love and attracted to you but also verbally told you. I’m not sure what more you need … not to even mention “4th try at therapy”

When she later apologized for her comments it is because fear is taking over when she is thinking of being single and responsible for herself. 

She is sticking around for the safety net….. for you not so much …. Or likely not at all for you.

Cut bait ….. you will NEVER get what your looking for from her. 

I’ve been married 25 years and with my wife over 30….. marriage doesn’t look like that.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Cynthia said:


> Also, if you're just a paycheck to her, is she just a babysitter to you? I'd ask her how she feels about that idea.


No one thinks there is any importance to making a woman feel like more than a brood mare and a household servant. As though the privilege of bearing young alone and washing the skid marks out of some guys underwear should somehow be considered this grand privilege. If you’ve been using her as a faceless servant with no concern for her emotional or intellectual needs for 25 years it’s unrealistic to expect she’s going to feel any affection for you. Do you feel affection for your boss at work who just uses you to make himself look good and doesn’t care about you at all? Why would your wife feel any different? Maybe take a moment to think about her perspective. Being “given” food and shelter in exchange for 24x7 servitude isn’t the grand deal society tells us that it is. 

Of course I’m a stranger on the internet, maybe you’ve treated her well and made an effort to care about her life. Only you can answer that question. It’s possible she’s selfish or angry about her own bad life choices and frustrated that she missed out and if she’d spoken up you might have made an effort to meet her halfway. Or maybe she’s going through some hormonal upheaval that is effecting her brain chemistry and this isn’t anyones fault, she just needs medical help. 

In any case, if you’ve any interest in maintaining a personal relationship with her, marriage counseling will do wonders. It will help open both your eyes to the experience of the other, help you empathize, and help you both see your part in what’s gone wrong and give you the tools to fix it or the courage to end it. Therapy is honestly so valuable, a disinterested and objective third party is going to be far more valuable than the perspective of internet strangers basing their advice on snippets from your life. 

Good luck.


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> In any case, if you’ve any interest in maintaining a personal relationship with her, marriage counseling will do wonders. It will help open both your eyes to the experience of the other, help you empathize, and help you both see your part in what’s gone wrong and give you the tools to fix it or the courage to end it. Therapy is honestly so valuable, a disinterested and objective third party is going to be far more valuable than the perspective of internet strangers basing their advice on snippets from your life.


I can't agree more. I'm pro counseling and have been so many times, over decades. Not all therapists are good just as not all teachers and not all cops are good. I shake my head when someone says they or a partner went to counseling and the counselor was bad and it's turned them off a counseling for good. So, with that logic, if they ate a bad meal, they'd no longer eat again because they'd be turned off of food for good.

Counseling takes work. One has to be honest with themselves and be open minded. One can't go into counseling with an agenda and a specific outcome they want. Many go to counseling wanting to win, to show their partner that they are right and their partner is wrong.

Beyond counseling, not enough people are intentional about things in their life. People need to put an oar into the water and guide themselves where they want to go and not just float along wherever the current of life takes them... and then complain about not being where they wanted to be in life.

Many want a nice relationship and if things aren't right they want their partner to change and become the way they want them to be and that might need to happen to a certain extent, but the other person needs to change and work on themselves too.

Too many forget that being in a relationship requires teamwork. We hear so often about folks saying "I don't want to go to counseling." "I don't need to go to counseling, I'm good with the way things are." Uh, their partner is NOT good with the way things are and when their partner says they want to go to counseling, so many respond in this fashion, that it's not needed and that they are good with things. With that logic, if their child was sick, they wouldn't take them to the doctor because they themselves are OK and feeling good so there is no need to take their child to the doctor.

Last point. So many folks put off change, addressing things, suggesting or going to counseling by thinking or saying things like this to themselves:

It will get better once we get married.
It will get better once we move into our own place, buy our own house.
It will get better once he/she gets a real job, finishes school.
It will get better once the baby is no longer a baby.

People say things like this to avoid having to take action, to avoid having to address the issue or issues.

They'd rather kick the can down the road than address it and that almost always ends up badly for them, for their relationship etc. Issues and problems rarely magically improve or go away on their own and most of the time they get worse as time goes on if they aren't being addressed.

Folks need to be intentional about things in their life, in their relationships and they need to take action, not ignore or hope things get better when. If they do that, they find that 20 or 30 years have gone by and things haven't been and aren't the way they wanted them to be in their lives.

I get it, just by addressing things and working on them it doesn't mean it will work out and that you'll get your way, but it's better to find that out than to waste decades hoping things change for the better.


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## Going on 22 years (10 mo ago)

So here is my thought:
You guys have two little kiddos. People completely underestimate how much love and devotion and attention and energy those wonderful children take up. It is very difficult to maintain (and basically regain) that connection you had when it was just two of you.
To a certain extent, EVERY couple who has kids goes through this. It’s a cliche - men feel like they aren’t appreciated and women feel like they give everything to the kids and are emotionally spent. Sure, your wife sounds like she isn’t incredibly tolerant and loses her temper. She is around two kids all day. And not everyone is great at connecting and sharing and frankly, while you are Mr. Breadwinner getting positive feedback (professionally and sexually) she is at home with no makeup and her hair in a clippie so you might want to have sympathy for her, rather than disdain for her lack of admiration that you feel from strangers (who honestly probably want something from you).
I also notice that it sounds like she said some hurtful things and apologized…yet you can’t get them out of your head. Do you think that might be something to do with your own worries or anxieties? She might not be great at communication - few people are. 
I really believe that when you have two little ones like that, you don’t get to just leave and start a new family. It’s selfish. The harder thing to do- is find a way to connect. Rather than rehash all the hurtful things over and over in therapy, why not do more of a couple’s encounter type therapy? And maybe you need to stop asking - or expecting - her for validation. That really should come from within. 




Carl Jensen said:


> First, I want to say thank you to all the members on this forum. Just reading has been helpful. Now I feel compelled to tell my story in hopes that I can get some feedback.
> 
> I am crippled with indecision on leaving my marriage of 10 years. 2 kids (7 and 4). On paper, we are great. Nice neighborhood. Good friends. Financial success. We have had really good times and really bad times. She is not a BAD person by any means, but I have been unsatisfied for a while. She has said the same.
> 
> ...


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## Going on 22 years (10 mo ago)

Cynthia said:


> @Carl Jensen, I don't blame you for lacking motivation when she treats you like that. I think she needs to get a job. Does she have job skills, experience, or education? If not, it would be much cheaper for you and easier for her, if she were to go back to school and get trained for a career. There are lots of careers that only require a two year degree, but provide a living wage. I'd recommend you start talking to her about being able to support herself and think about how you are going to divide things up.


I think that is terrible advice. This man has two children. Your advice takes the shortest and easiest way out - both adults in the family just take off and leave the kids. No. How about both parents grow up and fulfill the commitment they made to each other and the humans they brought into the world. You would rather have a mom leave her kids with a stranger all day, just to prove a point. Terrible.


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## Going on 22 years (10 mo ago)

A18S37K14H18 said:


> I may be wrong, but I'm almost positive that OP knows this.
> 
> OP, we know it's difficult, in so many ways. I thought I was failing by divorcing. It hurt to not have things be the way I always wanted them to be, expected them to be, counted on them to be etc.
> 
> ...


You might call it purgatory…because you didn’t come through the other end. But I’ve seen enough couples who actually worked to connect-and succeeded.
Not everyone needs to give up on a marriage, to find happiness. Perhaps once OP and his wife get past their current hurt and resentment, they can be loving again. They are raising two kids - and life gets complicated. You’ve heard one side of things - I would not be so quick to throw the baby out with the bath water just because it worked great for others.


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

You're right, many couples do work to connect and succeed. OP's wife isn't doing that and it's getting worse, not better.

You mentioned their kids in another comment of yours. You do realize that their actions, behaviors, words, yelling and such are really HURTING their children right?

I mean, let's review a bit.



Carl Jensen said:


> There is no safe place to talk about missed expectations/ needs. Almost every time I try to address anything, it is interpreted as "negative" and is either 1) negated or 2) pivoted to pointing out that she has gaps that are not being met either. These conversations spiral into arguments almost every time and hardly anything gets resolved. Also, she does not use collaborative communication. Plenty of blaming, cutting off, and sometimes screaming.


Arguments and screaming just isn't a good environment for children to be raised in.

OP is trying to work on things and yes we only have his side, not hers, but it is what we have to go on. 


Going on 22 years.

You said you've seen couples work on things and succeed. I will remind you OP wrote the following:



Carl Jensen said:


> We are 2 months into our 4th attempt at couples therapy.


They HAVE been working on this, they are in their 4th attempt at couples therapy. Should they go 29 times? 52 times? Should they keep working on things, but failing, until the children are grown and out of the house but so messed up due to growing up in such a crappy environment?

I will admit that sometimes staying for the children is the RIGHT course.

But I will also state that sometimes LEAVING for the children is the right course.

It's not black or white. OP and his wife know the score, we don't.

They need to put their children first, and that might mean leaving each other and it might not.

If you've been on this site and others like it, then you no doubt have read from many adult children who WISHED their parents would have divorced long ago, when they were children. 

I can't say for sure that OP and his wife should divorce, but you also can't say for sure that they should keep trying to work things out because neither you nor I really know everything, all the pertinent details.



And this:



Carl Jensen said:


> All other times it was throwing things or hitting the wall. She screams at me sometimes and says really hurtful things when she is upset "You are only a paycheck." "The kids would be fine without you" " I am not longer in love with you".


This is not a good environment in which to raise children either.

Before you say they may be asleep, on another floor, not hearing that, children are perceptive, the feel, they sense even if they don't understand it all. A relationship like this carries over into their everyday interactions.

Do you think OP's children are seeing his parent's laugh regularly together? Do you think the children see their parent's hugging and kissing often? Do you think the kids are having their mom and dad play with them, together, like games or hide and seek as a family?

I doubt it because arguments described by OP are such that they are not happy with each other and that carries over into their interactions with each other when they are not arguing and they children see it, sense it, feel it etc.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

With you working so many hours, the thing you both need to discuss and think about if you were to divorce is how on Earth you would manage child custody. The norm in the US is the split custody 50/50 these days. Not sure where you are but it differs by country. With you working so many hours, I don't know if you have the support in place to take your children and take care of them and do all the running and everything half of the week. 

And if she was single and having to make her own way financially, she would have the same challenges except she's probably not going to be working as many hours as you are. 

You also won't be able to move away from each other very far. Youu can check your state or country laws on that. 


So I think since you are kind of reaching the end of your ropes, this is something you need to sit down and decide whether both of you can even carry this off if you are sharing custody. You obviously will want to still see your children, and it isn't like you can just do that whenever you want to. That needs to all be put down on a custody contract and adhered to.

You did say you're doing well financially but you made it sound like she doesn't have any income of her own. So that's going to be a problem. Or you will just still continue to be the paycheck and she will still have the same roll of taking care of the kids most of the time, what she may not want to do if she's smart. She will likely want to have some time to have a life. 

So that's something you need to bring up.


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

OP, is there somebody else already on your radar? Just asking, because it gets asked of all the ladies who say similar things to what you’re saying? 
If so, you can’t make a clear-headed decision.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Carl Jensen said:


> First, I want to say thank you to all the members on this forum. Just reading has been helpful. Now I feel compelled to tell my story in hopes that I can get some feedback.
> 
> I am crippled with indecision on leaving my marriage of 10 years. 2 kids (7 and 4). On paper, we are great. Nice neighborhood. Good friends. Financial success. We have had really good times and really bad times. She is not a BAD person by any means, but I have been unsatisfied for a while. She has said the same.
> 
> ...


The tendency to be violent is what should end the marriage, In my books, the first punch thrown is the end of the relationship.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Carl Jensen said:


> Thanks Cynthia. Great insights. She doesn't feel like just a babysitter to me. She actually apologized for the "only a paycheck" comment after the fact, however it came from a real place when she originally said it. When not fighting, we spend time together on the weekends and sometimes on weeknights. We go out with and without kids. We have both decided on any professional things I undertake (promotions/real estate) and we are clear about the implications on my time away from the family. We weigh out what is most important to us and make a joint decision. ie. "this new job requires I travel X days a month, are you good with that? ". At this point I don't have the motivation to hang out with her. Why would I want to hang out with someone who said she doesn't love me or says they want a divorce? I am seriously contemplating leaving this all together.


Go ahead. File for divorce. Tell her to get a damn job! She’s not treating you right and you two don’t seem like a good match.

When SHE has to tow the line with work and all her home life stuff - she may appreciate the life you’ve provided for her.

But honestly, when someone says I’m not in love with you anymore - it’s because they are having an affair.

But who cares at this point - just be done with her - she seems mean and unappreciative.

You mentioned the kids are affected negatively. This is a big concern. The fact be place should be able to feel safe and happy is their own home - work hard to change things and provide a safe environment for a new place you set up for them. You can’t control the Moms household - but you can do that in your own place if you get moved soon. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

Why would you promise yourself that if she threatens divorce again you’ll divorce her —-> then not keep your own promise? Get the divorce filed.


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## Going on 22 years (10 mo ago)

A18S37K14H18 said:


> You're right, many couples do work to connect and succeed. OP's wife isn't doing that and it's getting worse, not better.
> 
> You mentioned their kids in another comment of yours. You do realize that their actions, behaviors, words, yelling and such are really HURTING their children right?
> 
> ...


Ok, I hear you. Yes, you have valid points. We just don’t know her side of it…and it sure is easy for the online person to embellish their position and diminish the other’s. It just seems that if people are going to divorce, they better really see if perhaps they can see things through the other person’s eyes. I don’t know if all marriage counselors are terrific; I personally have friends in that line of work, and they just happen to have the most unpleasant marriages I’ve ever seen. Many believe in their hearts that divorce is usually the best solution and many have parents who left when times got tough. I just think that behind all the yelling and resentment, there is usually two people who have a desperate need to connect rather than rehash. But I’m a little idealistic that way. And yes, I know it must be worse for kids to see and hear a terrible marriage. I just always have hope that people can make it work. And usually they have to realign their views. I didn’t have divorced parents…so I don’t know what the experience is like…but again, all kids would prefer their parents are happy and together.
It’s so easy to say “yea she’s so mean-you need to leave!” But it’s harder to say “find a way to connect, find a way to see things through her eyes, find a way to appreciate her again and to regain her respect. 4 counselors is a lot, I agree, but think of how many hair salons a person goes to until they find a stylist they love…or a gym or personal trainer. (Not the best examples but you get my drift). 
Again, I do hear you and you could be completely right. I just think that once people “give up” then there is no going back…and who knows, this could just be a bad time that they can grow from.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Going on 22 years said:


> I think that is terrible advice. This man has two children. Your advice takes the shortest and easiest way out - both adults in the family just take off and leave the kids. No. How about both parents grow up and fulfill the commitment they made to each other and the humans they brought into the world. You would rather have a mom leave her kids with a stranger all day, just to prove a point. Terrible.


Yes, he has two children. His wife wants to divorce him. If she divorces him, it will be extremely difficult for them all, including the children, if she can't earn a living wage. He is working a lot now. It's not going to get any better if they divorce and she has to rely on him for the bulk of her income.

It's hyperbole to say that I'm suggesting that they leave the children with strangers. First off, they would have to find someone they trust. Everyone is a stranger until you get to know them. You don't just dump kids off with anyone. You find someone you can trust. Also, perhaps there is a family member they could pay. I watched my grandchildren for free for quite a while. My daughter watches my other daughter's son. He couldn't be more loved. I could go on and on with real world examples. There are many types of scenarios that don't involve just dropping your kid off somewhere with people you don't trust.

I am suggesting that, if she doesn't have skills or education that she get some, so she can properly support herself and her children. If she doesn't have these skills or education, a two year degree would be ideal. You could continue living together and working on trying to resolve the problems. Who knows, by the time she has her degree, you two could have worked things out, if you continue couples counseling. There are obviously a lot of issues between you. I'm not of the opinion that once love is lost that it cannot be regained or that if someone leaves that things will never work out. I am, however, pragmatic and think that when your spouse says she wants a divorce, that it's proper to prepare for that possibility. If she's willing to continue trying to work it out, then keep working together to correct the issues.



Carl Jensen said:


> Thanks Cynthia. Great insights. She doesn't feel like just a babysitter to me. She actually apologized for the "only a paycheck" comment after the fact, however it came from a real place when she originally said it.


Yes, it did, but she realizes it was wrong to say it and hopefully to think that way in the first place.


Carl Jensen said:


> When not fighting, we spend time together on the weekends and sometimes on weeknights. We go out with and without kids.


Keep this up. If you want to try to resolve the issues, you have to spend positive time together.



Carl Jensen said:


> We have both decided on any professional things I undertake (promotions/real estate) and we are clear about the implications on my time away from the family. We weigh out what is most important to us and make a joint decision. ie. "this new job requires I travel X days a month, are you good with that? ".


You decided together, but it doesn't seem to be working. All this time away may be a lot of what is damaging your marriage and family life. You are working to support your family, but if you get divorced how did that work for you? What should be most important to you is your relationship. Everything else should stem from that.



A18S37K14H18 said:


> You mentioned their kids in another comment of yours. You do realize that their actions, behaviors, words, yelling and such are really HURTING their children right?


It seems that your wife, @Carl Jensen, could use some individual counseling to learn how to cope with stress and life. It sounds like she's having trouble taking personal responsibility. Her behavior is hurting the children and it will continue to hurt the children whether you two are married or not. She will simply find a new man and do the same thing to him. And the cycle will continue. Think about addressing this directly in counseling, in a supportive manner, and ask the therapist for coping strategies and for how you two can work together to stop the arguing and for her to learn to calm down. Does she have any outside activities? Does she get any exercise? How are her eating habits? All of these things factor into how she manages her life. You can't do it for her, but you can address the issues and talk about them with the therapist.


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## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

It is time to leave her. You've done everything you can.


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## Asterix (May 16, 2021)

Carl Jensen said:


> -Violent Behavior
> 
> Although it is rare, she has gotten violent. The worst was when she hit me in the face during an argument and then called the police... on me. I was trying to deescalate, but she pushed the door open and hit me. That was the only time it has gotten physical. All other times it was throwing things or hitting the wall. She screams at me sometimes and says really hurtful things when she is upset "You are only a paycheck." "The kids would be fine without you" " I am not longer in love with you".


I just read your posts and none of the replies. 

There's one thing I'd like to say here: Way to bury the lede my friend. 

Just based on this paragraph alone, I would think that there need not be any ambivalence in the decision that you need to make. 

What is outright scary is that there's the possibility that she'll do it again. It's not a question of if but when, because she showed to you that she's capable of it. The problem is that she can escalate it the next time, she may have some bruises and there's this previous recorded incident of her calling the cops on you. Life will not be hunky dory after that for you. 

I think it'd be in your best interests to have running cameras inside the house 24/7 going forward to protect yourself. I don't know if you are in two party consent state or not, but you need to make this happen somehow. 

Please don't be a sucker like Johnny Depp. He at least has deep pockets to hire good lawyers and gather proper evidence. Doing something similar might bankrupt you. 

All other things that you mentioned sound like just incidental issues compared with this one to me.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Going on 22 years said:


> You might call it purgatory…because you didn’t come through the other end. But I’ve seen enough couples who actually worked to connect-and succeeded.
> Not everyone needs to give up on a marriage, to find happiness. Perhaps once OP and his wife get past their current hurt and resentment, they can be loving again. They are raising two kids - and life gets complicated. You’ve heard one side of things - I would not be so quick to throw the baby out with the bath water just because it worked great for others.


That may be true but it’s a toxic environment now for the kids. Parents fighting enough for the kids to notice that there is tons of negativity in the house is not an environment any kids should have to live with.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

What are her needs and complaints? What has she needed from you? Sorry if I’ve missed that, I read that you’ve been voicing your side, what has she pleaded from you all these years? Especially in the 4 counselling sessions?

You mentioned a door incident, was she blocking you from the room or not allowing you to leave a room, sorry it confused me 

Yeah flattery is sort of cheap, we all get attention. It’s not always a cool thing to have people throwing themselves at you, especially if it happens a lot. It can grow a bit old and annoying.


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## 24NitroglyceriN26 (11 mo ago)

Carl Jensen said:


> First, I want to say thank you to all the members on this forum. Just reading has been helpful. Now I feel compelled to tell my story in hopes that I can get some feedback.
> 
> I am crippled with indecision on leaving my marriage of 10 years. 2 kids (7 and 4). On paper, we are great. Nice neighborhood. Good friends. Financial success. We have had really good times and really bad times. She is not a BAD person by any means, but I have been unsatisfied for a while. She has said the same.
> 
> ...


If you are apathetic on the topic of your relationship, most people use that front or that truth to establish dictatorship level rulership. If your "partner" has that attitude you should be subject to it because you apparently have noticed it. It is not a scenario you can deal with so I can only say you should seek isolation from that person. It trumps them and if they love you or want you in their life they will make the effort. If they are more in love with themselves or another person or other people, that is not love I would invest in. Refusal to invest is only enacted by isolation. It would be a war crime to feign apathy as an offensive weapon...because it would be false. True apathy like that is not a joke and you have no right to attack it. It means they do not love you and if that is true before the relationship...this is a relationship forum and we would not be talking about that.


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## 24NitroglyceriN26 (11 mo ago)

Beach123 said:


> That may be true but it’s a toxic environment now for the kids. Parents fighting enough for the kids to notice that there is tons of negativity in the house is not an environment any kids should have to live with.


For he kids? Is this the kids forums? So tired of hearing people say the kids or using the kids or considering the kids at all. You do not build on your children anytthing. To inject them in this is abusive and absurdly not use of brain or heart.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

24NitroglyceriN26 said:


> For he kids? Is this the kids forums? So tired of hearing people say the kids or using the kids or considering the kids at all. You do not build on your children anytthing. To inject them in this is abusive and absurdly not use of brain or heart.


When parents fight in front of kids they are affected by the fighting. They may not feel safe. They may think fighting is the norm. They also use that as an example and grow up and choose to participate in their adult relationships the same way. 

To think that fighting at home doesn’t affect kids is crazy. They should have a safe and loving home life.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

To be honest, the OP comes across like the usual entitled and arrogant man belittling the wife who stays at home with two kids who all of a sudden becomes this unbearable biatch not dressing up for him, not giving sex and complaining all the time, when he works every hour under the sun and deserves a medal... I would like to hear her side of the story.


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## Carl Jensen (10 mo ago)

Cynthia said:


> Yes, he has two children. His wife wants to divorce him. If she divorces him, it will be extremely difficult for them all, including the children, if she can't earn a living wage. He is working a lot now. It's not going to get any better if they divorce and she has to rely on him for the bulk of her income.
> 
> It's hyperbole to say that I'm suggesting that they leave the children with strangers. First off, they would have to find someone they trust. Everyone is a stranger until you get to know them. You don't just dump kids off with anyone. You find someone you can trust. Also, perhaps there is a family member they could pay. I watched my grandchildren for free for quite a while. My daughter watches my other daughter's son. He couldn't be more loved. I could go on and on with real world examples. There are many types of scenarios that don't involve just dropping your kid off somewhere with people you don't trust.
> 
> ...


Completely agree on individual counseling. I've suggested it for a large portion of our marriage. Said it was a requirement for me to stay in the marriage after she hit me. She did 3-4 sessions and then quit. I strongly, strongly suggested that she get individual counseling again ~4 weeks back and she finally had her first session 2 weeks ago. She's not a big fan of counseling/therapy. I believe there is a stigma there for her. Seems like she is getting something out of it, however she seems to be weaponizing some of it against met. "You won't believe what my counselor said about what you did...." I'm glad she is getting help.


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## Carl Jensen (10 mo ago)

In Absentia said:


> To be honest, the OP comes across like the usual entitled and arrogant man belittling the wife who stays at home with two kids who all of a sudden becomes this unbearable biatch not dressing up for him, not giving sex and complaining all the time, when he works every hour under the sun and deserves a medal... I would like to hear her side of the story.


Ouch. I'm knew when I posted this I would get a spectrum of responses, however I was not prepared for this. I came to this forum in a mental/ emotional crisis seeking guidance from others who have been in similar situations. I'm hesitant to even give my full response as I am sure it would only fuel your bias.

I feel compelled to respond, mainly because there are so many marital issues that get lumped into categories like this and then written off without a thought. "She has daddy issues." "He's an arrogant tyrant". Case closed. Taking this approach is dangerous because it doesn't take into account the uniqueness of every situation and puts people into convenient labels with out much evidence. 

I would actually love for my wife to tell her story here. In fact, there should be an entire section of the forum dedicated to posts from both parties if possible . Can you imagine what that would look like? One person telling their experience while the other is telling something completely opposite. I'm pretty sure that is what you would get in my situation. In fact, I know it. Our marriage counselor all the time points out that she (marriage counselor) doesn't even know what to believe because our stories are so different. 

I went into this marriage looking for a partner. A true partner. I don't want a subservient wife who does my bidding. I see our roles (W2 job & stay at home mom) as equal parts of a larger goal to raise a family. We BOTH decided that this was the way we wanted to raise our kids. I would've supported her if she wanted to go into the workforce instead of stay home. I also support her decision to stay home. My needs gap is what it is. I need to know that I have someone who is as invested in working toward a mutual goal as me. I need to know that I have someone who cares about how to reach me using my love language. I need to know that I have someone who respects our relationship enough to build it up and not tear it down with hurtful words. 

I work hard. I already know that. I don't want/ need a ****ing medal. I need a partner who is willing to invest in this relationship as much me.


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## Carl Jensen (10 mo ago)

Luckylucky said:


> What are her needs and complaints? What has she needed from you? Sorry if I’ve missed that, I read that you’ve been voicing your side, what has she pleaded from you all these years? Especially in the 4 counselling sessions?
> 
> You mentioned a door incident, was she blocking you from the room or not allowing you to leave a room, sorry it confused me
> 
> Yeah flattery is sort of cheap, we all get attention. It’s not always a cool thing to have people throwing themselves at you, especially if it happens a lot. It can grow a bit old and annoying.


Just to clarify, we have had 4 or so rounds of counseling runs in our marriage with countless sessions between them all. If you are talking about the current round, we have focused on communication which has been the main point of our martial problems in my opinion. We can't even talk about our issues, much less resolve them.

She wants more words of affirmation and more dates. Vacations. I try to accommodate as much as I can, however I am challenged to be motived to do these things sometimes given the negativity. That being said, when things are copasetic it works out much better. 


The door incident happened when I tried to get away from her. I went into the room and closed the door behind me (holding it closed). She pushed it open and hit me in the face. 

I agree on the flattery in general, however when my glass is very low/empty it is hard to have others seem to be more interested in me than my wife.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Carl Jensen said:


> Ouch. I'm knew when I posted this I would get a spectrum of responses, however I was not prepared for this. I came to this forum in a mental/ emotional crisis seeking guidance from others who have been in similar situations. I'm hesitant to even give my full response as I am sure it would only fuel your bias.
> 
> I feel compelled to respond, mainly because there are so many marital issues that get lumped into categories like this and then written off without a thought. "She has daddy issues." "He's an arrogant tyrant". Case closed. Taking this approach is dangerous because it doesn't take into account the uniqueness of every situation and puts people into convenient labels with out much evidence.
> 
> ...


Sorry, sometimes you have to be harsh to get some truth out of people. I still don't have any idea why your wife is so angry with you. You just say she is not willing to invest in your relationship as mush as you. What does that mean? What are her reasons? You are just talking about yourself. If you are vague regarding such an important part of your marriage, people will jump to conclusions.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> Sorry, sometimes you have to be harsh to get some truth out of people. I still don't have any idea why your wife is so angry with you. You just say she is not willing to invest in your relationship as mush as you. What does that mean? What are her reasons? You are just talking about yourself. If you are vague regarding such an important part of your marriage, people will jump to conclusions.


Yes we’re still hearing so much of what his needs are, and not what she’s asking for as well for her to be this angry. OP why is she so angry?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Luckylucky said:


> Yes we’re still hearing so much of what his needs are, and not what she’s asking for as well for her to be this angry. OP why is she so angry?


I'm glad I'm not the only one looking for answers...


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

When someone hits you in the face and then calls the police on you it should have been your wake-up call.

My wife was a stay at home mom with three kids. I worked a lot of hours because in today’s world one income doesn’t go very far. Unless you have a very high paying job.
It’s a balancing act. I stayed at home for a few months while my wife worked during a layoff. It’s hard work but so is working 60+ hour work weeks. We were both glad when I went back to work.

Let muffin go and figure out the child care. These situations rarely get better. They usually get worse.
She can get a job and you can cut back on work hours to help with the kids.
It will lower both of your standards of living since it’ll be 2 homes instead of 1 but you need to improve your life.

Being a stay at home mom these days is pretty rare. I doubt she realizes that or isn’t what she wanted but the perfect time to remedy that. I would not waste anymore time waiting or looking for change.


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## Carl Jensen (10 mo ago)

Luckylucky said:


> Yes we’re still hearing so much of what his needs are, and not what she’s asking for as well for her to be this angry. OP why is she so angry?



That is the million dollar question. If I truly knew that, I probably wouldn't be in such a bad place right now. I can say that she has asked for more dates and appreciation. She is keen on words of affirmation, which I try to provide. I also try to carve out as much time as I can for dates (without kids), however it is hard with a single income and 2 kids. When we can't do the childless dates, I opt for alternatives like movie night in after kids go to bed. I will usually cook something or get takeout she likes on the way home. She says she is appreciative at the time, but then later in an argument she will say things like " I am at an absolute 0 for what I need in this relationship" or " we NEVER go on dates". For me, it negates the things that I am striving to do. Sure, we can't go on a date every week without kids, but I try to accommodate in other ways (movie nights, etc.) This feedback really kills my motivation and to be honest I have lost a lot of interest to do these things anymore


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Carl Jensen said:


> That is the million dollar question. If I truly knew that, I probably wouldn't be in such a bad place right now. I can say that she has asked for more dates and appreciation. She is keen on words of affirmation, which I try to provide. I also try to carve out as much time as I can for dates (without kids), however it is hard with a single income and 2 kids. When we can't do the childless dates, I opt for alternatives like movie night in after kids go to bed. I will usually cook something or get takeout she likes on the way home. She says she is appreciative at the time, but then later in an argument she will say things like "* I am at an absolute 0 for what I need in this relationship*" or " we NEVER go on dates". For me, it negates the things that I am striving to do. Sure, we can't go on a date every week without kids, but I try to accommodate in other ways (movie nights, etc.) This feedback really kills my motivation and to be honest I have lost a lot of interest to do these things anymore


Thanks. That helps a lot. It seems to me that you work too much (which I understand) and do not dedicate enough time to your family. You do what you can, but your wife is not happy, because she is left on her own all day with the kids and I assume she does most of the chores since you are rarely there to help her. It's a classic situation. What she says in the arguments is how she really feels. One income and 2 kids is tough. Any chance she could get a job? I know most of her salary will go towards child care, but maybe getting out of the house and having a different life would greatly benefit your wife and your marriage in general.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Carl Jensen said:


> She says she is appreciative at the time, but then later in an argument she will say things like " I am at an absolute 0 for what I need in this relationship" or " we NEVER go on dates". For me, it negates the things that I am striving to do. Sure, we can't go on a date every week without kids, but I try to accommodate in other ways (movie nights, etc.) This feedback really kills my motivation and to be honest I have lost a lot of interest to do these things anymore


Have you told her this?
Does your wife get out much? Does she have friends and activities that she does with the kids?
Her issues may have nothing to do with you and everything to do with feeling overwhelmed and isolated. This happens to a lot of stay at home moms, if they don't make it a priority to connect with other adults. I stayed home with my kids and homeschooled them. I was involved with other moms and we had a lot of play dates. This was not only for the kids, but for the moms. We had to connect or we would be isolated. It is very easy to become isolated with preschool children or while homeschooling. It takes effort to join groups, make friends, and connect with others. 
If your wife isn't doing any of that, she is expecting you to meet all of her needs for finances and social life. That's not working for her, if that's what she's doing. Combine that with your long work hours and it's a recipe for disaster, which she then blames on you.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

She can work. That would provide her with more income and some other outside sources of interest besides the home life.
Then plan a weekly date out - just the two of you. Plan a yearly vacation so she has some things to look forward to.

Or just bail and know that you two aren’t good at communicating together.


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## Carl Jensen (10 mo ago)

Mr.Married said:


> The problem is you don’t want to see the truth because you are so involved in the situation and have so much sunk cost. People say what their hidden truths are when they are upset. She has not only shown you that she isn’t in love and attracted to you but also verbally told you. I’m not sure what more you need … not to even mention “4th try at therapy”
> 
> When she later apologized for her comments it is because fear is taking over when she is thinking of being single and responsible for herself.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I really appreciate that perspective. Hard to see it when I am in it, so emotionally invested in kids and this life we built.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Carl Jensen said:


> Thank you. I really appreciate that perspective. Hard to see it when I am in it, so emotionally invested in kids and this life we built.


What probably you don't see is the effect of your relationship with your wife on your children. They actually understand and sense something is wrong. They also would eventually think that a loveless, cold, emotionless marriage is the norm and they will repeat the pattern. Do not forget that in many screw up relationships the children eventually think that they might be to blame. 

It's much, much better for children to have two happy homes, rather than a miserable one.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Rob_1 said:


> It's much, much better for children to have two happy homes, rather than a miserable one.


This is idealistic. Divorce doesn't solve everything. How do you know that either home will be happy? I know lots of divorced people who struggled terribly after divorce. I believe in trying to solve problems where they are. I know you can't make someone cooperate or do what's right and I do believe that sometimes divorce is the answer, but in most cases people should be able to behave like adults and make it work. For one thing, fighting is pointless. Learn how to communicate and set boundaries. All of that helps kids. I find this new line of thinking that divorcing is better for the kids to be strange. I don't think divorce is usually better for kids and I think research supports that.

I've also seen people struggle through marriage for years and years, trying to make it work. Some of those people eventually divorced. some are still a work in progress, and others are doing very well. Their families are intact and the kids are doing well. We all have struggles in life. Doubling down and working through them is usually the best example for kids, imho.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Cynthia said:


> This is idealistic. Divorce doesn't solve everything. How do you know that either home will be happy? I know lots of divorced people who struggled terribly after divorce. I believe in trying to solve problems where they are. I know you can't make someone cooperate or do what's right and I do believe that sometimes divorce is the answer, but in most cases people should be able to behave like adults and make it work. For one thing, fighting is pointless. Learn how to communicate and set boundaries. All of that helps kids. I find this new line of thinking that divorcing is better for the kids to be strange. I don't think divorce is usually better for kids and I think research supports that.
> 
> I've also seen people struggle through marriage for years and years, trying to make it work. Some of those people eventually divorced. some are still a work in progress, and others are doing very well. Their families are intact and the kids are doing well. We all have struggles in life. Doubling down and working through them is usually the best example for kids, imho.



I'm not idealizing or guessing how anyone's home will be. All I'm saying is given the situation of a bad home environment for kids, whenever possible (some people are not economically able to) it's better to give children two happy homes (which should be the responsibility of both parents to provide). I ask you: haven't you ever heard people say and lament how miserable and screwed their growing up life was, and that they wished for their parents to had split, rather than being in the middle of a terrible environment to grow up?

I tell you, I not only have, but I lived that experience myself. I remember telling my mother to please, divorce my father, so were my brother and sisters. Divorce is not a panacea for children, because it brings its own set of emotional and psychological issues to kids, but by the same token, 50/50 is the better alternative when a marriage is over, no doubt about it.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Rob_1 said:


> I ask you: haven't you ever heard people say and lament how miserable and screwed their growing up life was, and that they wished for their parents to had split, rather than being in the middle of a terrible environment to grow up?


I would have to think about that for a while. Nothing comes to mind off the top of my head. Yes, I know people that have had poor childhood experiences, but I wouldn't pin it on their parents not getting along. I'd pin it on their parents being clueless as parents. I've also known people who had problems due to their parent's divorcing rather than working things out. Usually it's because the parents have no idea how to live a healthy life. That doesn't change when they get divorced, in fact, people often find new partners to mess up their children's lives with. Pragmatically, if people don't resolve their issues, they are going to have the same problems over and over again. Most people don't do that.


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## hub49 (7 mo ago)

Carl Jensen said:


> The worst was when she hit me in the face during an argument and then called the police... on me. I was trying to deescalate, but she pushed the door open and hit me.


It honestly should have been "game over" after that episode.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Carl Jensen said:


> Ouch. I'm knew when I posted this I would get a spectrum of responses, however I was not prepared for this. I came to this forum in a mental/ emotional crisis seeking guidance from others who have been in similar situations. I'm hesitant to even give my full response as I am sure it would only fuel your bias.
> 
> I feel compelled to respond, mainly because there are so many marital issues that get lumped into categories like this and then written off without a thought. "She has daddy issues." "He's an arrogant tyrant". Case closed. Taking this approach is dangerous because it doesn't take into account the uniqueness of every situation and puts people into convenient labels with out much evidence.
> 
> ...


@Carl Jensen , this is s tough one and I think communication between you is the biggest issue. I ought to also point out that women often marry men like their fathers so there is that. I note you only write all about her and what she is not bringing to the table. How much personal self reflection have you done? Are you in need of individual counselling yourself per chance? It takes two hands to clap. I doubt if you divorce now either of you will move on to better relationships as the problems lie within you both and you have two innocent kids in the mix.
Is there any women in your workplace, etc that have been giving you attention? You spend much more time working than you do with your wife, this does not auger well for the best of marriages. Spending time (without kids) is an essential glue to the marriage. Whilst you feel neglected on many fronts i am sure she is feeling exactly the same way. Time to sit down and be totally honest with one another and hear each other out.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Ambivalence leads to making no decision.
As long as no decision is made = things remain the same.


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## uwe.blab (May 2, 2019)

TeaLeaves4 said:


> OP, is there somebody else already on your radar? Just asking, because it gets asked of all the ladies who say similar things to what you’re saying?
> If so, you can’t make a clear-headed decision.


ding. 
ding.
ding.


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## Carl Jensen (10 mo ago)

aine said:


> @Carl Jensen , this is s tough one and I think communication between you is the biggest issue. I ought to also point out that women often marry men like their fathers so there is that. I note you only write all about her and what she is not bringing to the table. How much personal self reflection have you done? Are you in need of individual counselling yourself per chance? It takes two hands to clap. I doubt if you divorce now either of you will move on to better relationships as the problems lie within you both and you have two innocent kids in the mix.
> Is there any women in your workplace, etc that have been giving you attention? You spend much more time working than you do with your wife, this does not auger well for the best of marriages. Spending time (without kids) is an essential glue to the marriage. Whilst you feel neglected on many fronts i am sure she is feeling exactly the same way. Time to sit down and be totally honest with one another and hear each other out.


Totally agree here. I have been seeing a counselor for quite a while and acknowledge that it takes two to tango. She is a good mother and she does have some good qualities (wouldn't have stuck it out this long if that was not the case). I own my part here. I have struggled to communicate my issues in a loving manner. I have sometimes been condescending. Everyone on these message boards is telling a ones sided story, I get it. My challenge with my wife is the communication skills needed to work through our issues. We are not aligned. I have had to drag her to couples counseling 4-5 times now. Ask that we read books together. Talk about each other's needs. We have carved out time for each other. Dates, trips without kids, etc. All the problems seem to be waiting when we return back home. I'm running out of motivation.


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## Carl Jensen (10 mo ago)

uwe.blab said:


> ding.
> ding.
> ding.


No one else. Now what?


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