# Does he want to get married or not?



## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Hi all

Need some perspective on my situation.

Been with my OH for 3.5 years, we have two LOs aged 1.5yrs and 8 weeks.

We spoke about marriage at various points before our first child was conceived, he was keen on the idea and I was open to it. During that pregnancy I warmed to the idea and was quite open with how much I would like us to be married now we were expecting a baby. Although he was fully committed to us having our baby, he seemed to be lukewarm about the idea of marriage - the dynamic had changed. I'm somewhat regretful to say I pursued the idea more than I should have done looking back, I feel I pressed the issue more than I should have done.

He started off saying what did it mean, what would it change, married friends said it didn't make any difference etc etc... Then he said we had enough to think about with a baby imminent, we couldn't afford to get married, he didn't want to think about it until we'd moved in together and had baby. I explained I wanted the security of knowing we were heading in the same direction, he agreed. The birth of baby came and went, we'd had plenty of discussions about getting married and he let slip he'd planned to propose at the birth but didn't, and for some reason this really upset me - I was starting to think he was saying one thing and meaning another, and he said he wanted the proposal to be a special occasion, and wanted to plan something.

Anyway he did ask after lots of talking, and I kinda wish I'd left it to him to do it off his own back - you see where this is going?

He seemed disinterested in making any arranagements, although I gathered from female friends this is not unusual! I took it upon myself to set a date and told him, we started to work towards it until we realised what we would want would have to be put back if we were to afford it, so I cancelled the initial plans.

I did originally say I wasn't bothered about an engagement ring and I would wear the ring he already bought me. I changed my mind after some thought, and let him know, which he seemed fine with - but a year down the line, nothing. I knew money was tight but he was off spending relatively large amounts on his hobby - of course I want him to enjoy himself, he works hard, but I started to feel put out and told him. He seemed to take this to heart as he reported back one day he'd told his close male friends what I'd said and what they thought and they agreed with me and could see how I'd feel put out.

I feel like I've created a bad situation out of mostly my own doing. I do feel that had I not pushed things, we'd still be moseying along living together with children but no sign of marriage - and I feel that if I never mentioned marriage again, he wouldn't either.

He did mention once jokingly that he didn't need to get married because it was like we were anyway (why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free anyone?) and if I'd said I wouldn't sleep with him/move in together without getting married, then he would have done. I don't know how much he meant it but I don't know what to do *shrugs* I want the commitment of being married, but I want him to want it too. In all other respects he is great - a great father, a good partner, works hard, supportive - but this plays on my mind so much, most recently because I asked him what he wanted for Christmas, he said nothing, and that he wasn't getting anyone except the kids anything - I suppose being honest I was secretly hoping he might present me with a ring I just don't know if he wants to get married or not!


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## lime (Jul 3, 2010)

My question to you is do _you_ want to get married or not?

You seem to have a solid relationship and are already living together and sharing parenting duties. I think you're setting arbitrary boundaries and expectations; for example, you said you want an engagement ring. He can't afford a ring right now, and he doesn't want to make sacrifices to save up to buy one. So this is one way that you're limiting things, because you're making him feel obligated to jump through more and more hoops to propose. 

I think if you really want to be married, then _you_ will propose. It's nontraditional, but then again so is your relationship. You don't need some flashy, overpriced diamond ring or a fairytale wedding. All you need to do is ask and sign a piece of paper. Maybe instead of wanting him to sacrifice his hobby to buy you a ring and afford a fancy wedding, you could sacrifice your own fantasies of these things to marry the man you love.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I just wanted to convey that you also have power in this situation.  You don't have to wait around forever for him. I think for him, it's probably just getting harder and harder to propose, because the longer he waits, the more perfect it "has" to be in his mind and the more intimidated he feels. You can change that!


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## major misfit (Oct 17, 2010)

Nobody wants to feel like they're dragging a man down the aisle. And truthfully, if it meant much to him...he'd forego some of that hobby stuff and save up for a ring for you. What gets me is that he had to check with his friends to see if your being "put out" was a normal thing or not. He simply couldn't take you at your word. 

And that whole "why buy the cow" thing. Why buy the whole pig for just a little sausage? I hate sayings like that.

In all honesty..IF he wants to marry you, wild horses wouldn't be able to stop him. He'd save up for that ring without your having to ask. He'd plan on how he was going to ask you. You wouldn't have to feel like you're dragging him down the aisle. For some men, the "wife" thing is important...others, not so much. I think you've got one of the latter. The biggest issue is that you both seem to want different things. I don't think he understands how important this is to you.
There are benefits to being married. Legal ones. You have NO protection if something were to happen to him, God forbid. Maybe if you help him understand (even though it's unromantic) that you have no legal leg to stand on without being married, it might help. If he were to experience something catastrophic, you couldn't make decisions (medical or otherwise) on his behalf. The ONLY support you would get would be for your children. You won't be entitled to any of his social security. The list goes on and on. But I view marriage as a contract between two people. That's what its' original intention was anyway. A way to secure property between families. The notion of marrying for love is a fairly recent one (within the last coupla hundred years or so). 
FWIW, I'm not married. I've done it twice (the last one was over 20 years) and I don't consider myself to be successful at it. I'm in a long term relationship with my SO to whom I am committed with every fiber of my being. I CHOOSE not to marry b/c I don't need the financial security. And if 20 years down the road it turns out that this r-ship isn't successful, then I can walk away (or he can) without the disaster of divorce. JMHO.
I hope you can both resolve this, truly. I used to preach so hard to my daughters (27 and 24, respectively) to not live with a man before marriage. For just this very reason. My 27 yo went ahead and lived with her b/f before they got married, and she had to drag him down the aisle. She left him, and he came running with an engagement ring. I wouldn't advise that. Now they're both miserable.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

The ring and fancy wedding... I never wanted an expensive ring or a fancy wedding, that's the thing. The ring I wanted is less than the equivalent of two weeks' wages for him, he could have easily saved up for it several times over by now... but hasn't. In my eyes I don't want a ring as a material possession, but something which symbolises *that* commitment between me and him.

The issue about legal standing should something happen is one I have thought about; he says I'm being morbid. He understands but doesn't seem to place any relevance on it, he says if anything did happen then me and his mum get on sufficiently well for him to know that she wouldn't be awkward with any of his affairs, but I explained it would be quite humiliating to me to have to come second behind his mother when I'm the one he lives with and am the mother of his children He then says people don't get married because of what would happen when they die... 

I do wish I hadn't gone the path of having children and living with him before being married, and feel I'm stuck in a place I wish I weren't because I have no leverage. I'm not sure where I go from here.


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## major misfit (Oct 17, 2010)

He's avoiding the issue by saying that it's morbid to talk about those things. It's reality. Things happen. And to leave you beholden to his mother..not right. He doesn't know that she won't change towards you if he's not there. She might also use "helping" you as leverage to get her way. Nope..too much room for disaster here. 

Since he won't marry, then you have to do the things a single person would do to protect themselves. Plan for your future. Get an education, so you can support your children. SAVE MONEY. That is the biggest thing a woman can do for herself. SAVE MONEY. Anyone can sock away $10 out of the weekly grocery budget. He is right that people don't get married because of what would happen when they die...but if he were thinking rationally and truly wanted to protect the mother of his children, he'd think a little harder. 
I do believe that marrying him would be a mistake. He simply sounds as though he's dead set against it. That is why I would prepare for MY future. With or without him. 
Please don't get your hopes up expecting anything from him. If you don't have any expectations, you won't be disappointed. He's pretty much let his feelings be known, accept him at face value. If he does do anything, then it's a wonderful surprise. 
But truly...get yourself an education. You have to prepare yourself. And please start socking a little money away. My daughter wanted to leave her husband at one point and come home..with her infant son. I told her she WOULD be expected to get a job, and she WOULD have to put her son in daycare as I'm physically unable to care for a child that small anymore. She would have to manage her money wisely, with the goal towards independence. Moving home wouldn't be a free ride. She chose to stay, b/c she wasn't willing to do the hard work required to live on her own eventually. Again..they're both miserable. 
This really does suck, and I feel badly for you. I hope you'll think realisitically about your future and plan for it. With 50% of marriages ending in divorce (not sure what the stats are for folks living together) I firmly believe every woman needs to have an emergency plan. It's unromantic, I know. But real. I hope for the best for you.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

major misfit, I appreciate your respectful advice.

Luckily I already have an education, I went to uni when I was younger. I also am in charge of our finances and do save money, the majority of it is actually 'mine' although I consider it to be 'ours' within our relationship; it was given to me related to something from before we met.

As I have never met anyone I wanted to marry before, I never really understood the idea of not living together prior to getting married. I do now! I mean, I consider myself to be intelligent and worldly, and have no problems with people living together and not being married, but with the benefit of hindsight I wouldn't have planned things to happen like this (our oldest was a happy 'accident'!)

He had a recent spell in hospital, and when he was being admitted, the nurse asked who his next of kin was. He relayed this to me afterwards, and said he said it was me, but wasn't sure who was legally. His mum was with him (I was at home with the children) and says his mum gave him a 'look', he seemed to think she expected him to say it was her.

I do not worry about managing on my own - I have two older children and broke up with their father when the youngest was a baby, I worked to support us then and I would do it again once the baby is a little older if it was needed.

I COULD propose; however, I know I want us to get married. I just don't know how much he does. IMO if I left things as they were, and didn't take any action either way, we would mosey along into the sunset for the rest of our lives and never end up getting married. If I took the steps and arranged a wedding, my intuition tells me he would happily enough get married. I just honestly don't think he would get me a ring himself, arrange anything himself, off his own back.

The sad thing is that I remember how proud he used to be of us being together, the effort he used to put into our relationship; back then I would have put money on if he did propose, he would want it to be a big thing he did and it meaning the world to him. Now, to him, he has said there are other more pressing things (mentioning rightly looking after the children) which is honorable but I do have a relationship with him as well as us being parents together - I hope that makes sense - I don't mean at all to devalue how good a dad he is or how important the children are to us, but mean that we also have a relationship between us two that is important.


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## Applepies (Nov 14, 2010)

Awww, an 8 week old, cute. And a 1 and a half year old. You must have your hands full.

I would ask him what example he would like to model for the kids. Two committed parents bonded or two people that love each other for now or for long as it is convenient?

Most people have a dream of a committed relationship, growing together, growing old together. Doesn't he want to model that for his children?


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## major misfit (Oct 17, 2010)

I would like to applaud his consideration of the children..but I don't believe a man (or a woman, for the matter) should get kudos for doing what's right involving their children. It's what GOOD parents do. 

He sounds like he's put the relationship on the back burner. More of a daddy than a partner. Am I correct? He's happily traipsing along, status quo, and he's happy enough with things as they are. He's forgotten to nurture and nourish the relationship between you two. It's kinda like "I'm good, why aren't you"? 

Ordinarily I would never advise this...but this seems very important to you, and you did say that he'd likely happily get married if you set about to planning everything. So that's exactly what I'd do. I would plan a simple wedding and go get my ring. I would handle all aspects of this wedding, and not ask for input from him. Again..I usually would never tell someone to do this..but it's very important to you and it doesn't sound like he's OPPOSED to getting married. He's just apathetic when it comes to marriage. So you take the bull by the horns, tuck away your pride, and set forth to marry the man. Plan a romantic night, and ask him to marry you. Put the question in a fortune cookie. I don't know..something. It requires a yes or no answer, and no further discussion is needed. Don't ask him if he's sure he REALLY wants to do this (if he says yes). Just go with it.
This way, your future and that of your children are protected. YOU are protected. He doesn't sound like a bad guy, just a little oblivious. If it's no big deal if you don't get married, it's no big deal if you DO. So jump in there and just do it. In all honesty, and if it was THAT important to me, and I really believed he was not firmly dead set opposed against it, that is exactly what I would do. 

BTW..his mother is his legal next of kin, barring any adult children. And yours are little, so that leaves mom with the "title". 
My SO and I have each others' powers of attorney..this way I can make legal decisions should he become incapacitated, and can issue medical directives. His mother would be faster to "pull the plug" than he's comfortable with, lol. 
Good luck, and I hope you'll keep us posted with whatever decision you decide to make. You both sound like nice people, with little kids who deserve to have a happy future.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Applepie, I hadn't thought of it in that sense. I agree with that perspective, the only trouble is that he didn't have that from his parents when growing up which I think is part of the problem - I can see he likes the idea of marriage but has trouble with how it works in practice, understandably so as his father wasn't a good role model or even around much.

major misfit, you are EXACTLY right in saying the relationship is on the back burner. He often wonders why I'm not happy with things how they are. I know from past experience how important it is to nurture and work at a relationship; he on the other hand thinks when two people have that spark, and love each other, they shouldn't have to "work" at it, it just happens. He was very attentive in the "honeymoon" period, that seems to have eased off now.

I am guilty of not trying as hard; difficult to do so anyway with small children to look after, but a lot of my efforts were rebuffed and sad to say, I stopped trying as much because I was fed up of him not being terribly bothered. Odd really because he shows his affection in practical ways; for example I was really tired today and had some stuff to do after the kids' bedtime, said I felt that sometimes the day never ended, and when I was putting the baby to bed, unbeknownst to me, he was tidying up and doing the jobs he knew I was going to do and hadn't had time to do whilst he was at work, even though I know he was tired. Things that make my day easier.

He *is* a little oblivious to this though I like the idea of me taking the reins, but crazy as it may sound, I don't know how he'd react to me buying a ring because he's quite traditional and feels things like proposing and buying rings are a man's job, which is fine with me, I just wish he'd take on those jobs!


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## major misfit (Oct 17, 2010)

Maybe if you set up that romantic dinner (will his mother babysit????) and fix all his favorite foods, and ASK him to marry you...if he agrees maybe he'll take the initiative and get that ring? You already know you're not going to get the proposal, you're a modern woman in the 21st century just doin' what a girl's gotta do. 

I wasn't too sure how I felt about the love languages thing that everyone talks about, even after my SO and I both took the test. Interestingly enough, my love language is acts of service. You don't gotta compliment me, you don't gotta smooch on me all the time, you don't gotta buy me anything...just empty the dishwasher or scrub the toilet. My SO's is physical touch, with quality time a close second. I have to make a conscious effort every day to make sure that I give him the touchy-feely, kissy-huggy (not sexual in nature) stuff he needs. I make a conscious effort to snuggle up next to him on the couch while he's enjoying "Hell's Kitchen". (you get my point). These aren't things that come natural to me...I have to ACTIVELY THINK about them. 

I don't know how you could get through your sweetie to get him to nurture your relationship better. There are tons of books, websites, etc. to help couples along with this. I'm not big on the self-help stuff, (I need too much work on myself, lol) so my knowledge of what's available is limited. There's the old die-hard...talking...but he seems a little hard to get through to. 

I can tell you this much...the more time you spend with JUST each other, the easier the conversation comes when talking about your relationship. There's a lot to be said for friday night date night. I've read, and heard it said..that the more you give, the more you get in return. I haven't found that to be necessarily true..I think it depends on the person. 

If he's happily ensconsed in his world as it is, shake it up a little. I think you're going to have to be the one to take the initiative. Make arrangements for a babysitter..make dinner reservations..and when he comes home, have on an outfit that even he can't say no to. Oh..one little hint..if you have some reading material that you'd like him to take a look at, leave it by the toilet. I know that sounds totally nuts, but it has worked on more than one occasion.  Sometimes men will read *anything* out of desperation. 

I really do wish you the best on this. I hope soon you're posting about your upcoming wedding!


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

plastic899 said:


> Tobio,
> 
> A lot of women in your position may not realize it, but an awful lot of guys won't marry you just because you had children with them.


How so- as in they see no need to get married you mean, because it's like a marriage 'situation' already?


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## lime (Jul 3, 2010)

I agree with major misfit’s plan to have a simple wedding. I agree that he might not want to get married enough to actually propose and plan it, but he’s not opposed to it either. 

He is happy the way things are, would be happy to stay that way, and probably would be happy to get married if it didn’t take a lot of effort. He’s probably just neutral, and wanting him to care makes sense, but unfortunately that might not change his mind. 

You said that he’s very traditional? Maybe you could still let him buy the ring for you after you were already married or after you’d proposed. You don’t have to buy yourself a ring without his input; you could propose to him, have a simple ceremony or go to a Judge (Justice of the Peace?) to get the legal documents taken care of. THEN you can go ring shopping together--that way it would be more fun and less pressure--you’d already be married so he wouldn’t have to worry about all the details. It could just be a fun time for the two of you to pick something nice to symbolize your union. Just another idea.

I really do believe that your boyfriend is a solid guy and committed to you. I hope everything goes well for you!


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## Ladybugs (Oct 12, 2010)

you got some good advice, so just a few thoughts here that occur to me are--

its not a good sign in itself that he told you he does not plan to give you any gift for Christmas...a man who loves you would not even consider not giving you a gift...is that really how you deserve to be treated?

the ring? he spends money on his hobby, but cant be bothered to get you a ring? there is somthing wrong with that picture,
dont mean to bumm you out, but it doesnt sound right

i believe this is headed to a worse off place, if it continues to stay like this-- you have the value of marriage, you keep wanting to be validated which is understandable, you want the real adult comitment of marriage, not playing house..also the legal stuff, how sad that legally your not considered the next of kin..that sucks imo

you guys might get along for a time but if he continues to traipse along, with you being upset about marriage, it will all blow up

tell him you do not need a fancy ring, express to him that your hurt that he manages to put money to his hobby but doesnt seem to be able to do so for a ring.
he will continue to as you put it, mosey along into the sunset, without any commitment, unless you bring it to some type of line in the sand..

tell him this is a huge step, but imo, if i were you, i would let him know you can no longer live with him, and you guys can go to a justice of the peace to get married...if he isnt willing to do that, i think you shouldnt continue to let him play house


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

I do have moments of feeling bitter. We have talked about it a number of times, and I think it would be accurate to say that no, he is not averse per se to the idea of getting married on the whole - although I do wonder sometimes - but he simply does not either prioritise it in his thoughts or actions or currently place any relevance on it related to our lives. Ie it's just a concept to him at the mo, he has no desire or drive to get me an engagement ring or start planning a wedding.

The problem I have is deciding if his lack of motivation will continue long enough for me to consider it a serious issue. Will anything change for him? I don't know. I can't SEE things changing in the foreseeable future and that is where I find myself - I suppose saying that why doesn't he prioritise it or why aren't I important enough for him to be doing these things? Or is it just his way?


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## major misfit (Oct 17, 2010)

It MIGHT just be his way. It MIGHT just not be that big of deal to him. Maybe he can take it or leave it. 

laelsmom...I take umbrage to the "playing house" remark. I know a lot of married people who don't fall into the "real adult" category. My SO and I are just as committed as some, and more committed than others (who are married)to our relationship. I view marriage as a CONTRACT between two people. Two people sign on the dotted line, and the papers are filed in the courthouse. You need a lawyer and a judge's decree to break that contract. People get married because they're supposedly "in love". I don't need a contract to declare to the world I love the man I'm with. I have no need for that contract, as I'm financially independent of him, we have no children together (nor will we have any), and all of the legal "stuff" is taken care of anyway. We are FAR from "playing house", and I don't understand why people still have that antiquated notion of those who make a conscious choice to NOT marry. 

My SO would marry me tomorrow (his words, not mine). I wear a ring...it has no significance except to tell the world (not that it's necessary) that I have made a commitment. There would be some legal issues (just like married people) because we've taken steps to safeguard some things. 

So..I'm not "playing house". Maybe I'm a bit more logical in my thinking than that of a younger person..but I've been there, done that..and don't feel it necessary to do it again. One could make the argument that since we've taken legal steps, share a deed, etc., why not just go ahead and get married? I don't need to, I don't want to, it's not a big deal to the man I share my life with. Simple. 

tobio...you can't make something important to your b/f that just isn't. You can't make him feel a priority he doesn't feel. You COULD draw that "line in the sand", but that's issuing an ultimatum and they usually backfire. Please don't back him into a corner by issuing an ultimatum. UNLESS you want to end this relationship and find someone who feels marriage IS important, AND a priority. And you're well within your rights to do so. 

The argument could be made that your not proposing to him smacks of lack of motivation. From a traditional standpoint, it's the man that does the ring shopping and proposing. That is a purely TRADITIONAL standpoint. And there's nothing wrong with tradition, if that's how you view things. 

I'd like to know...do you feel "important" to him in other aspects of your relationship? Is it only this area that makes you feel unimportant? Is he nurturing and caring, does he have your back in a tough situation? Do you fear him cutting and running if a serious issue were to hit? Is he a good father? If you were to take the marriage issue off the table...do you feel like you're a priority in the rest of the areas? The issue of marriage isn't on the table in my r-ship...and I know beyond the shadow of any doubt that I'm the number one priority in my SO's life. Do you feel the same way? 

For the record, I think the man should marry you. Y'all are young with a young family. You've got a long way to go in this life. So give me his number, and I'll call him and ask him why the hell he doesn't get off his apathetic ass and get married already! I'm KIDDING!!!!!!!!!


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

I *do* feel important to him. I feel like he's got my back, he works hard to support us all and is very involved with the children, I like that he doesn't feel his role finishes at 5pm when his job is done, he will pick up the slack when he gets in, when I'm cooking dinner and juggling 4 children, homework and preparing stuff for the next day.

I think where we have difficulty sometimes is his need to be right in asserting his 'independence.' We used to have arguments in our early days as he used to go out a lot. This wasn't a problem in itself, but was when it came to us spending quality time - I was then a single mum with two children and so could only go out when I had a babysitter - I used to feel that his social life came first, but also that he hated feeling like I was 'tying him down' - though I must say that I have never doubted he's always been faithful, and that he stepped up to the plate as soon as he found out I was pregnant. He did try to put off moving in for a while though which also upset me.

Last night I mentioned that yesterday was the day we'd initially planned to get married. He said it wouldn't have been a good idea with the babies being so little and we should wait until they're old enough to make speeches! I said what - when they're grown up? He said why not - I said there was no point in waiting to marry until the kids were grown up *shrugs*


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## Ladybugs (Oct 12, 2010)

Tobio,

he says the babies are 'too young' for you guys to get married? ? :scratchhead:

that logic doesnt make sense, 

im sorry, my opinion, just my opinion, is that he is averse to the idea..he doesnt need to say horrible things about marriage to be averse to the idea..the fact he is not doing it, and making rediculous excuses, such as the babies need to grow up first, shows he does have an aversion to it..

major misfit,
sorry my comment about playing house upset you..its my personal opinion, everyone has their own personal views of marriage, living together etc. that is my personal view of it,..it was not directed at you or against you, just how i feel about it


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## major misfit (Oct 17, 2010)

tobio..you can keep pounding away at the issue for who knows how long...and maybe he'll change his mind, and maybe he won't. I agree that his logic is skewed, I think he was just grasping at straws (or making a flip remark) when he said what he did about getting married when the kids grow up. The short answer to your original question and the title to this thread is..no. Not right now. Maybe not ever. And I'm sorry for that b/c you sound like a really nice person and he's a boob for not wanting to grab you up and make you happy. You can tell him I said so...*wink*. Sorry, I'm not trying to make light of the situation, because I do feel your pain here. There just is no easy answer. I will rest by saying I still think you should propose to him and set about planning a wedding.

laelsmom..your comment didn't upset me...it makes me want to bang my head against the computer desk. Yes, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, however you're wrong that it wasn't directed at me. Maybe not PERSONALLY..but it was directed at anyone who chooses to live together. Ok...t/j over...


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

The comment about the children being older... that was to do with it being easier to plan and have a wedding, which I get. Although I do not get why they would need to be grown up...

We have fallen into a pattern (or should that be *I* have?) Every month or two, I get thinking about it prompted by something or other (friends getting married, a comment by someone) and stew over it for a week or two. I drop hints/comments, which he doesn't pick up, then I sum up the courage to talk about it. He will always say, yes, he does want to get married, but we can't afford it, we will get married but not for a while/in the future/eventually. Then that will be it, I will either be happy (for a while) or not. The the cycle starts again.

I know the real problem is that I want him to be something he is not. No matter how much I want, I know he is not going to change, he is not suddenly going to plan and carry out a romantic proposal, he is not going to present me with a ring, he is not going to go off and search out a beautiful wedding venue. Some might argue all these things are irrelevant. I understand that viewpoint. I suppose ultimately I want to have that traditional romance, to know he would think of me like that, treat me in that special way, not that I am his afterthought.

My real dilemma is whether I can be happy with that, and a lot of the time I don't know if I can. I don't "need" an engagement ring; but it hurts me a lot to think he couldn't even be bothered to save even £10 a month over a year or two to buy me a ring. I feel belittled to be called his "girlfriend" when we have two children together, live together and are grown adults who plan to stay together forever. I actually feel embarrassed when people comment on why we aren't married yet and he says he doesn't know. I actually correct him now when he calls me his wifey/missus and say no, I am your girlfriend, we are not married. He says yet. I say we never will be if we don't plan a wedding...!

Edited to add, I asked if it were better to not have a ring or to buy my own - he got very huffy and said I couldn't buy my own - male pride is a crazy thing, I can't buy my own ring yet he hasn't bought me one!


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## major misfit (Oct 17, 2010)

You're now sounding as though you've resigned yourself to this. What is irrelevant to someone else doesn't matter when it pertains to you. They're your feelings, you're entitled to them...they're RELEVANT to YOU. No one can tell you how to feel, or what's important to you. 

I think he's got it wrong about it being easier when the kids grow up to get married. If he thinks kids are expensive now, just wait until they're in college!! Even when they're out on their own, a lot of times mom and dad need to "help". It's a different world kids are growing up in now, it's not so easy for them to make their way independently of mom and dad. You have a ton of twenty-somethings with fresh degrees having difficulties finding work. 

But it is what it is. And that makes me sad for you. He really sounds like a good guy, and a good father, but just not the romantic type. You can't make a romantic out of someone who isn't. I believe it has to come somewhat naturally. They can make improvements...but it's hard for them to think of things b/c it just doesn't occur to them. 

The best thing a man can do for his children is to love their mother. I believe that with all my heart. I wish I could tell you to just take the kids and leave him and tell him you won't return until he's got the ring bought and the wedding planned. But I can't do that in all consiousness. It might actually work, but at what cost..you know? 

I hope this works out for you. Truly.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

He certainly used to be romantic, enjoyed the thrill of the chase... but sadly (and by his own admission in a roundabout way) he feels no need now. That's what makes me sad- he used to put the effort in, in a romantic way, but it's the last thing on his mind now.

He has said in the past, people settle down and they just aren't like that anymore, but he has also said that he doesn't need to make the same effort now (or now he's "got" me.)

So to say he's not romantic is at odds with that; he also used to talk about how he wanted to propose, it was important and he wanted to do it right; but what I had was a moment of non-event that seemed like he did it just to do it if you see what I mean? It just seems to me like he can't be bothered to put the effort in in anything romantic, yet complains when 1/2/3 weeks after giving birth that we haven't "done it" for ages, when will I want to, he's worried I don't want to anymore... Makes me cross thinking about it!


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## loren (Sep 13, 2010)

You sound quite forlorn about the situation and it's almost like the whole relationship has been a build-me-up-buttercup-let-me-down affair. I can completely understand your side of things. 

You know him; we don't, so only you can decide whether this laziness, complacency and lack of romance means he doesn't love you enough to make you his wife, or whether it just means that he's too far into the comfort zone to take this seriously. Either way, it's the complacency that's getting you down... not the ring... or the wedding...just what the lack of it symbolises. One foot in is the same as one foot out. He knows that and you know that. And leaving you in very public limbo just doesn't seem that friendly. 

If you and your children are loved, cherished and looked after (in other words, if what you have is a marriage without the title) then you may have to accept his bottom line on this, which he has told you directly and indirectly, and you may have to compromise on this dream if you want to be with HIM. If marriage is YOUR bottom line, ideally you would have held off on meeting all his needs until he met you halfway, but what's done is done. If he wants to make you happy, he should man up and compromise on whatever is holding him back, and do the right thing by you. Unfortunately your current situation of half-marriage is comfortable for him and he feels no need to change it for his peace of mind. It is your peace of mind that is at stake. Don't beat yourself up about the way things have gone. As I said, what's done is done. You can live in the life you have built together, knowing that this might be it. Or if it will drive you crazy with resentment, you need to break free, rebuild, learn, and seek what you want elsewhere. Is he what you want? Remember, he comes with this bottom line... Remember he KNOWS what it is that will make you happy and is choosing, albeit by blaming outside forces, not to give it to you... Is he what you want for the rest of your life?

The point is, you both want different things. If the one want you have in common is that you want to be together, something's gotta give. Someone has to compromise. Because you've given so much already (your time, your love, your womb) you feel, and society would attest, that it should be him. But the reality is, he might not. So would you be willing to give even more than you have? And would you still love him afterwards?

I hope my answer was not too depressing and that you find some resolution for this.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Loren you have it spot on with the complacency thing. 

Looking at it, it sounds an odd thing to say. I cannot fault his role as the man of the house and the father, the provider (he is very proud of having this role.) He is helpful and practical. I think he places less importance on emotional matters though, and this is where we have always seemed to disagree or fall out.

I mean, he will do things to make me happy (run out and get me ice cream when the children are in bed, drive to my parents because he knows I don't like driving.) He is a classic case of a man from Mars- I feel like he doesn't listen, he wonders why I'm not happy when he sees things as being fine.

Being honest I do think this is related to my feelings of self-worth, rightly or wrongly. I made comment about how traditionally a man would propose with a ring; he said I was the least traditional person he knows- "you had two kids before we even met FGS"... In the context he said it, it came across llike he was saying because of that, there wasn't any need for him to be "traditional"- he went on to say that things would be different if they weren't the way they were (ie I hadn't met someone and had kids with them before I met him.) Ie things would have gone the traditional route but because they are different, they haven't. That's really upset me- it feels like he's saying I'm not worth all that because I have a history, like somehow that justifies his lack of effort- in a way like I'm being punished for not being the perfect girlfriend.

Oh I don't know what to do. I tell myself that despite this he is a good catch, it's not worth breaking up over- but then I don't know what he would do that would convince me and that I wouldn't end up staying but being resentful at the dangling of the carrot- I need something from him that comes from him, from the heart, that I know isn't *just* to make me happy but is because he wants to from the bottom of his heart.


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## loren (Sep 13, 2010)

Well you both have a lot invested in this relationship, but something is missing somewhere. Whether or not you are attaching significance to his throwaway comment about you already having kids due to your own self-worth issues or not, it's just an extension of his excuse making. Plenty of divorced men have children and remarry so his logic about non-traditionals is flawed. It may just have been a throwaway comment.Did you let him know it hurt you? 

You say he is good and proud to be part of the family, and it seems what is happening is that he is overestimating his contribution. Lots of men take the "I'm here, I don't hit her, I don't cheat" justification, forgetting that these things are active threats and negatives in a relationship.These things SHOULD be absent as a matter of course, so just showing up and not being evil is not enough. Inaction is sometimes just as hurtful as painful actions. I would say his behaviour constitutes somewhat as painful action because he knows marriage is important to you, and denies it. But I don't know if he knows your feelings in the same way you have written them here, and whether he still thinks his contribution to the relationship is sufficient despite what he perceives as a 'pesky marriage issue'. 

Have you tried the Five Love Languages? It's by no means a quick fix to this situation but it could perhaps go some way towards helping you assess your actual worth in the relationship by learning how it is he most expresses his love, and deciding whether he is doing enough for you without marriage. It would be good to do it together as it could enable him to have a clearer idea of what you're missing. Best of luck.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

I did let him know his comment hurt me. He has tried to explain it away by downplaying it. It's hard to know what to think with him, he has admitted previously that he speaks before he thinks and what comes out of his mouth isn't always representative of what he means!

Another part of it is that he is a joker. He is always coming out with what he thinks are funny, witty comments in response to anything I say, even if it is something serious. An example is earlier when I'd said I'd like us to talk later, which he said was fine, made out like he couldn't remember what about, ("the 'M' word" he said then started talking about mortgages...!) then said with a big dramatic sigh, yes, he knew really what I wanted to talk about, and did his huffing-and-puffing thing which he does nearly every time the subject comes up, which is his "comedy" response to the subject of marriage. He says these responses are his defence mechanism to anything serious. I got annoyed as he dragged it out and said one day he'll make one joke too many, he won't take me seriously and it'll be the final straw, he apologised.

We ended up having a brief chat instigated by him, he showed me a Wikipedia entry for a famous place where people elope to get married and said we should do this, just me and him, go off and get married by ourselves, we could come back and do things the right way round (him referring ot being traditional) and then have the kids? I didn't quite get this but he had to go out straight after so I didn't get chance to ask him, and when he got back, he sat with his music on through his headphones so I didn't get chance to continue the conversation.

Not sure what to think, we wre supposed to have a chat the other night so that's two nights it's gone without happening and he's in bed now.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

He's now said that we can just go down to the register office at the weekend if I just want to get married...

I pointed out you can't just do that, you need to give notice then pick a date. He said well we can do that, but I don't think that's what you really want, you want a big wedding, and it's going to be years before we can afford that.

I said you know I don't want a big wedding with all the frills, and he started saying about maybe in a few years, when the youngest is at school (the youngest is 9 weeks), we can start saving up then...?

I said, I know I've already said this before, but I'm worried that we'll get to being 50 or 60 and we *still* won't be married. He nodded and said, yeah, I can see how you would think that. I said I wished he'd just be more positive- he's saying yes, he does want to get married, but every thing he brings up, is a negative. I said I just wished he could tell me how much he loves me and can't think of anything more important than me being his wife; he said he does think that, and I know that (do I?)

I don't know if I can go however many years with his practical indifference and complacency with this. It's funny really- ask him to, say, fix the car or put something together, he's off, planning it, getting stuff, and goes off and comes back with it all done like it was nothing. I don't want to be just 'there' at home, like one of the fixtures and fittings, I want to be cherished and loved, and for him to show me like he says he wants to


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## major misfit (Oct 17, 2010)

tobio...call the registrars office and set the date. Then go down and get married. You're wanting something out of him that he's just NOT going to do. If, later down the line you want to plan a "wedding", there's nothing to stop you from doing it. 

I don't think you're going to be happy either way, to tell you the truth. Unless he gets down on bended knee in a romantic setting and presents you with a ring and gets all happy about planning a wedding...you're not going to be happy. He's just not going to do that. He's SHOWING you this. You're just being resistant to it, thinking he's going to change. 

IF you want to marry this man, then do it. I understand it's not your idea of what you wanted, but it is what it is. However...make sure that you're not going to harbor any resentment b/c things didn't happen the way you wanted. 

He really does sound like a decent man. I think this wedding subject is just the topic hiding a deeper issue. Your last line cued me in to that. You "want to be cherished and loved'. I guess I'm just old now, but to me a man who is taking care of his family and all the neverending STUFF that goes along with that IS cherishing and loving you. 

I was telling my SO the other day about my mishap trying to get ice off the windshield. How I'd turned the wiper blades on while pouring cold water on the windshield at the same time, thoroughly dousing myself and getting freezing cold in the process. I told him b/c I was laughing about it. That night he comes home from work with FOUR cans of de-icer. Now..that ONE gesture told me this man loves and cherishes me. Though he is the type to bring home flowers for no good reason other than he wants to...it's those other gestures that tell me that I'm loved and cherished. When he took time off of work to hold my hand at the dentists office (I am PETRIFIED at the dentist)..that told me I'm loved and cherished. I'm 52freaking years old, for cryin' out loud. I should be able to go to the dentist on my own. And I have. But he showed up at my appointment time to hold my hand b/c he knows I'm terrified. 
Some men just show their love in different ways. They DO. They fix things, they put things together. It's what they DO. I know if I were to want to marry, he'd let me run with it. He would be only too happy to. I know he wouldn't care less about flowers, decorations, the dress, etc. etc. etc. He's too busy earning a living for his family. Let me handle the details. 

You really need to look at the "5 love languages" that everyone talks about. You and your husband both take the test. Together. Might give you a little insight to how you relate in terms of love. My primary love language is "acts of service". I didn't place much emphasis on the whole "love languages" thing until I took that test, and my SO took it as well. But it fits us to a "t". If you take the test together, you can see what constitutes "love" in his book, and he can see what makes you feel loved and cherished. It wouldn't hurt anything. Try it.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

I have come to realise the wedding idea does hide a deeper issue, I know this. I have also realised that the romancing I want isn't going to happen. He does show his love in a different way. I think I am as Loren said, disappointed that I was "promised" the romantic proposal, the ring, which I never got. I suppose, being brutally honest and not even slightly feminist, after the mess that was my prior relationship, I wanted something different, to have some sense of commitment, permanency in the traditional way- for the man to show his commitment in *that* way.

It does make me a little sad to think that I will never have that in my life. I will never have a memory of being surprised with a proposal, being presented with a ring, knowing that he had gone off and thought of me, wanted to be with me so much that he went to the trouble of asking me to cement our lives together. I know on some level I equate that (rightly or wrongly) with my self-worth- ie if he loved me that much he would have done that. But I also know I can't judge others on how I *think* they should behave, and that he does show his love in other ways.

Last night at dinner, he said we would put the children to bed a little early (hoping baby would follow suit!) so we could have some quality time. I was pleasantly surprised; I can't remember him ever saying this before. I thought he might have something in mind (bearing in mind what quality time might mean!)

Anyway, he asked what I thought of his idea to go off just us two and get married, maybe in a years' time so the baby and kids can stay with the grandparents. I said although I like the idea, it wouldn't feel right the kids not being there. He said he understood but I could see he was disappointed.

He seems set on this idea all of a sudden; I feel pleased he's interested, it is a huge turnaround to say previously he's never expressed interest except to say what he thinks to my ideas of a wedding. I like that he's thought about it off his own back. Something doesn't quite sit right about it, I think the question of is he doing it because he wants to, or because he feels some pressure from me? My questions towards him haven't been intended to push him into it, more to establish whether he does want to or not.

We have some time this weekend so hope to chat more with him and make some plans.


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## loren (Sep 13, 2010)

It sounds like he is trying, and compromising on the issue to make it something he is comfortable with. Earlier I mentioned that in your scenario, something's gotta give, and judging from what you wrote about his previous comments on marriage, it looks like he is offering some 'give' after all, which suggests he does love you. No, it's not a bended-knee proposal, but for HIM (someone overtly against marriage in his previous comments) this is a big step. 

Friends of mine got married in their lunch break, and the bride preferred it that way. They're now expecting their first child. The saying goes you're only ever going to be 80% compatible with your partner at best (which is why people go and have infidelities etc, chasing that elusive 20% and coming back when they realise what they thought they DIDN'T have was nothing compared to what they DID have). Sure, my friends' view on marriage was part of their 80% compatibility. Maybe your views on marriage rest in the 20% incompatiblity area for you and your SO. The fact remains, he is compromising by talking about it now, and showing his love for you in that very fact. If the relationship is good, respectful, committed and nourishing, AND he is adaptible enough to try and compromise on the areas of discord, can that be enough to secure your happiness with him? 

As I also said before, you know him; we don't. So you need to decide if this is enough for you. Our observations (and any revelations that come from doing tests such as 5LL's, which I do reccommend), can only take you so far. After weighing the evidence, you must just (apologies if this may sound trite, but I really think it applies best here) do what your heart tells you. Either you feel loved, or you don't, and that's the bottom line. I hope it all goes well.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

I'm all tied up in knots about this at the moment. The thing is, I know I've got a very young baby and so am probably hormonal, much as I hate to say it, so I can't trust that that isn't affecting my judgement at all.

I joked I'd phoned the register office today, he for some reason didn't believe it? He asked didn't I like his idea of us two going off, I said like I said the other night, I did like it but didn't feel right about the children not being with us. He said he wants the baby to be a page boy, so we'd need to wait until he can walk at least. He then came out with the bizarrest thing- "it's too soon"- I laughed and said we've met, moved in together, and had two children, and it's too soon? I couldn't work that out *shrugs* I understand what the words "it's too soon" mean, but not what it means in the context of our relationship, except that he says we have too much going on right now to think about anything else. 

He's not here right now but when he gets back I plan to talk with him to clear up this confusion. I don't want to perpetuate the recurring cycle of we talk - we seem to come to some resolution - I get thinking about the feeling of doubt - we talk... It gets me down.


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## major misfit (Oct 17, 2010)

tobio..you said yourself that you might just be hormonal at this time, having had a baby not too long ago. Can you give yourself a break from this right now? Not permanently...just give your body and your mind time to heal a bit. You can always revisit this issue at a later date. Give yourself permission to not think about it, or talk about it for say, six months. Then see how you're feeling.

I do think this guy loves you. You're just not on the same page right now. Give him a break, and give you a break. I'd give it a rest for 6 months, then see where things stand.


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## Ladybugs (Oct 12, 2010)

tobio,

imo, just go ahead and get married, without all the frills, but you can still make it a romantic time..

it seems like to me whats the most important thing to you, is you do not want to bear the title of 'girlfriend' after all this time together, and kids together..it is very important to your heart to be called his wife..

holding onto the desire for a big wedding ceremony may delay it to the point where you never get that from how he sounds..

he offered to get married at registers office...find a way to add some romance to that, and do it
then you will be his wife...not girlfriend

think of it like this-- I can either wait and wait forever and have a ceremony, a traditional type wedding when Im older (maybe) OR we can have a romantic day planned, get married at registers and the next person we bump into, i will be introduced as his wife..maybe Im wrong, but from your posts, I would bet that is what really counts to you, how you will feel at that point...not 'my girlfriend'// but my 'wife'....think how that moment will feel to you and decide if you would rather have that now, or wait around indefinately for a wedding ceremony that may never happen 

who knows? It could end up being very romantic...


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Ok so this is where we are now...

We've been talking quite a bit about it over the last couple of days. We've discussed loads of stuff and he comes across now as being interested, like he's been thinking about it himself.

However, I still feel uncertain about what's going on in his head. He goes from talking about what he'd like the wedding to be like, to saying our situation is like we're married anyway. I can't describe it as blowing hot and cold because it's not...he comes across as being very factual in his viewpoints, almost removed from emotion. I explained it was hard to know where he was coming from when he says first one thing, then another. He said I think too much.

I half-jokingly said something about feeling short-changed, from how he used to be romantic, to not now. He thought about it, and came back with that he thought he still was, deep down somewhere, but that circumstances and me too had sucked all the good nature out of him! I know what he's like- many a true word spoken in jest and all

When I came to find myself wishing that now he had actually talked to me about it, that he would show some feeling, some passion I suppose, I realised this is what it is. This is what it all comes down to. Somewhere along the line, he seems to have lost some of his spirit, his positivity. I know that although he adores his children, he does at times struggle with the endless cycle of mundanity and drudgery that is everyday life. I do feel that at time I am the brunt of his bad feeling, that in some indirect way he blames me for taking him from his previous single and carefree life to what we have now.

At times it seems that everything to him is a hassle, things are to be endured, including me The only things he shows positivity about are his drinking times with his good friend and his family, spending time with our toddler soon, and sex. I can't help but feel resentful at times about the latter. He says that's when we connect, which is true but... We did have a telling exchange earlier when I said that everything doesn't revolve around sex; he responded by saying everything doesn't revolve around romance... 

So really I end up here. Here is a place where I don't doubt he loves me and our children and he is a good provider. I find myself battling a bitterness. I feel sure there are many other men and women out there who have partners who are similar, who simply consider themselves not to be romantic in that outwardly traditional way, and they can live with that.

You know, I could possibly live with it if he'd always been like that. I remember how hard I had to persuade him to move in when I got pregnant, how we used to argue about how much effort he'd put in to make plans with friends, to go on holiday with them, yet it seemed like such an effort at times to make plans for us. The latter parts being something that kinda evolved, I suppose.

I keep having this little voice in my head that says to leave it, and I usually find that little voice is good to listen to, so I am going to. I need to wait, to take time and weigh things up. I don't doubt my state of mind is affected by having my lovely little baby but it has crossed my mind that maybe marriage isn't the thing that I am necessarily looking for here.


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