# Had enough of the wife



## Beerman

Im going to try to summerize everything thats going on in my life right now. Found out a few weeks ago that my wife was having a EA. Found good hard evidence ie phone records, email ect. Finally approched her and blew it up. Well she lied to me when she told me she had broken contact with this guy. I have placed VAR in our house just to be sure she wasnt contacting this guy. Found out tonight that she still is. 

Now I am a very beta person, so I know that part of this is a problem that I caused. But when you have three kids, and I work 2 jobs trying to support them and her, my time at home is limited. I really wish I could be there all the time but I cant. She has no idea how good shes got it. She is a SAHM and two of our kids are in school all day. She does not want to go get a job because she says it would be a waste of money because all the money she would make would be going to daycare.

Apperently she is very much in love with this guy, who also happens to be married. Im thinking why even try to trust her anymore. She has told me she wants a divorce, but we both decided to try to work it out. Ya right. Im trying, shes not.

I hate snooping on her all the time and feel guilty about it but I have no choice. Please give me some feedback and thoughts on my situation and maybe the next steps i should take. Sorry if I am rambling on, just alot of feelings going on right now.


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## tom67

Beerman said:


> Im going to try to summerize everything thats going on in my life right now. Found out a few weeks ago that my wife was having a EA. Found good hard evidence ie phone records, email ect. Finally approched her and blew it up. Well she lied to me when she told me she had broken contact with this guy. I have placed VAR in our house just to be sure she wasnt contacting this guy. Found out tonight that she still is.
> 
> Now I am a very beta person, so I know that part of this is a problem that I caused. But when you have three kids, and I work 2 jobs trying to support them and her, my time at home is limited. I really wish I could be there all the time but I cant. She has no idea how good shes got it. She is a SAHM and two of our kids are in school all day. She does not want to go get a job because she says it would be a waste of money because all the money she would make would be going to daycare.
> 
> Apperently she is very much in love with this guy, who also happens to be married. Im thinking why even try to trust her anymore. She has told me she wants a divorce, but we both decided to try to work it out. Ya right. Im trying, shes not.
> 
> I hate snooping on her all the time and feel guilty about it but I have no choice. Please give me some feedback and thoughts on my situation and maybe the next steps i should take. Sorry if I am rambling on, just alot of feelings going on right now.


Tell his wife asap.
Then come back here.


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## EleGirl

Yep, get copies of your evidence and give it to his wife. That will most likely end the contact because he will dump your wife to save his marriage. 

Tell your wife that it's time for her to get a job. This will relieve you of having to work so much. Remind her that having an affair means that she will be divorced. And being divorced means that she has to work to support herself.


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## honcho

Until she stops the EA you cant begin to repair your marriage. Do not feel guilty about snooping. You will need to expose the situation and contacting the OM wife and letting her know what is going on if you know who he is. 

You must show her this is an intolerable situation and you wont live like this beta man or not. Keep all the evidence you have in a safe place. She needs to believe you will divorce her over this unless she starts working to repair the marriage. 

You must be strong and in control, if your wishy washy or rugsweeping it she will probably just go underground and just become sneakier. The quicker you expose this and have her face the consequenses the better chance it will end.


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## Beerman

Thanks so much. I will try to contact his wife. I do not know her name or her number, just seen pics on facebook. When I blew this up with my wife she said that this guy is very unhappy in his marriage also and wanted out. Its a shocker to me. My wife is very reserved, and I mean very reserved. Hell I cant even see her naked. It is not a very fun life for me right now. But I know I cannot change her feelings toward this guy. I can only change myself and hope that she sees that and comes around.l


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## EleGirl

The purpose for exposing an affair is to hopefully get it to end. Most affairs end upon or shortly after exposure.

The other man (OM) tells your wife that he's unhappy in his marriage. That's what they all do. Most men will not leave their wife for an affair partner. The affair is usually to add some spice to their life. Your wife just does not realize this. 

this is why exposing is such a good idea. He will most likely dump your wife and she will be left with the realization that he's been lying to both his wife and to your wife.


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## Beerman

Is it bad right now to feel like I dont even want to try to resolve this situation and try to change my wifes feelings? I feel emotionally exausted. iThe more and more I find out about this EA the more and more I really dont care. Do I sound confused or stupid or what?


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## Beerman

To be honest with you all and myself, I havent been happy in this marriage for a long time. I just want whats best for our kids. My wife is more concerned about being a good mother(which I will not ever take away from her. She is!) than being a wife. Our marriage took a back seat( way back) when our first child was born.


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## jld

I would tell the other man's wife, for sure. Then I would file for divorce and give your wife the papers.

I would not bother telling her she needs to get a job; it's going to be obvious when she sees those papers. Reality should set in quickly.

It may take her a little bit to get herself together and come to you, sorrowful. During that time you make plans for the divorce, assuming the worst.

She will likely come to her senses and come to you and want to talk about it. At first she may be defensive and tell you it's your fault. Listen but don't respond. Go about your business. Expect her to be trying to justify herself. 

As reality becomes clearer, she's likely going to become desperate and ask you what she can do to repair the situation. Be ready with a clear list of expectations moving forward. You put everything on that list that you want. Complete transparency and accountability should be at the top of the list. Be willing to hold her accountable.

Again she will probably balk and tell you that the affair is at least partly your fault. You tell her briefly and simply that she is either going to follow everything on that paper or she's going to find herself divorced. Go about your business.

Pretty quickly you're going to see how it's going to move forward. She's either going to start complying and probably be pretty humble about the whole thing, or she's going to start moving away from you. 

Either way is a win-win for you. You either start getting a respectful wife, or you move on with hopes of finding one later.

But you have to be in control of your own emotions. You have to be able to stick to what you decide. You have to be firm in your resolve. It really is for the best for both of you.


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## Sbrown

I disagree! She is NOT a good mother! A good mother puts her spouse above all else. Putting the children before you sets a bad precedent for them to follow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

Sbrown said:


> I disagree! She is NOT a good mother! A good mother puts her spouse above all else. Putting the children before you sets a bad precedent for them to follow.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good spouses both put their children first when necessary.


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## Sbrown

jld said:


> Good spouses both put their children first when necessary.


Over the other spouse? When would that be?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## D.H Mosquito

You have seen her pics on facebook then private message her and explain it all i'm sure even for self preservation she will hear you out and possibly want to meet for the evidence and watch the other guy vanish


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## jld

Sbrown said:


> When would that be?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, this really doesn't apply to the original poster, but some examples would be when they are babies and are breast-feeding, when they're sick, if they come down with a major illness, if they are going through some trauma . . .

Parents have to sacrifice for their children, Sbrown. That's how children make it to adulthood. They can't just fend for themselves.

Again, I don't think this is relevant to the opening post.


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## Sbrown

Sorry, I edited my post while you were responding. But you're right it doesn't pertain to the op.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

EleGirl said:


> Yep, get copies of your evidence and give it to his wife. That will most likely end the contact because he will dump your wife to save his marriage.
> 
> Tell your wife that it's time for her to get a job. This will relieve you of having to work so much. Remind her that having an affair means that she will be divorced. And being divorced means that she has to work to support herself.


Word.


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## bandit.45

Beerman said:


> Is it bad right now to feel like I dont even want to try to resolve this situation and try to change my wifes feelings? I feel emotionally exausted. iThe more and more I find out about this EA the more and more I really dont care. Do I sound confused or stupid or what?


You're in shock.


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## bandit.45

She's not in love. She's in infatuation which has all the pleasantries of love without the bills, the mortgage, sick kids, dreariness of daily housekeeping....it's all a fantasy. Fastest way to break her out of the fantasy is to get off your ass and shake her world up. 

Every bit of advice you have been given so far is noteworthy. 

There is a fair chance if you expose her affair, file for divorce, and take steps to leave that she will snap out of her fantasy. I could see her a few years down the road joining the other blubbering waywards over on Surviving Infidelity saying "looking back I'm so disgusted at the fog I was in and how stupid I was and how badly I treated my spouse and how selfish I was and..."


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## john117

Sbrown said:


> Over the other spouse? When would that be?
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Every time. I can get remarried, wife can, too. We can pick our next partner, and we chose our current ones too. 

Our children had none of those choices.

Keep in mind that exposing may end the affair but cause the wife to go frigid on him and seek another - better managed - more covert - affair...


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## lifeistooshort

Your wife needs a job. You're working two, which i'm guessing means you're not around much and as such there's not much couple time. She's got a lot of time on her hands with two of three on school and she used that time to look for male company (trashy on her part). Either she gets a job, you lose one of yours, and you start spending some real time together or you file for divorce which you might have to do anyway. Contact om's wife, then contact other man and let him know that you'll be filing for divorce and he's free to support her. Watch him throw her under the bus.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

This should be in the coping with infidelity section.

Tell your wife to get a job. 

That you will sue for divorce and 50/50 custody.

Tell her you will fight alimony.

Call his wife. He will likely throw your wife under the bus.

Why do you think this is only an ERA. How far away does he live?


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## Chaparral

How much do you drink Beerman?


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## jld

I think if he files for divorce, she will figure out the getting a job part all on her own.

It could also be on the list of demands he makes for reconciliation.


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## TryingTilda

I don't know how all of you can generalize so much. You are just hearing his side. Don't give him that advice! There's much more to it and it takes two to have these issues. How about more details about what he can do to perhaps be a better husband? I'm not condoning affairs but they happen because something is wrong in the marriage.


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## bandit.45

TryingTilda said:


> I don't know how all of you can generalize so much. You are just hearing his side. Don't give him that advice! There's much more to it and it takes two to have these issues. How about more details about what he can do to perhaps be a better husband? I'm not condoning affairs but they happen because something is wrong in the marriage.


Sorry. You're wrong. People have affairs because they want to, not because their backs are against the ropes. 

This chick had a lot of other avenues through which she could have tried to improve her life and marriage. She's choosing the coward's way out. 

This isn't the Oprah Hour. The people here on TAM have heard every excuse for cheating there is. In the end there is no excuse.


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## jld

Yes, we are only hearing his side. He will be hearing her side, for sure.

Tilda, what do you see as the risk in the advice we are giving him?

ETA: For sure he could be a better husband. But the affair needs to end first, imo.

And she doesn't have to fight a divorce. She may be perfectly happy to accept a divorce. That would tell us a lot about him, too.

I do think that often, not always but often, when a woman strays, it is definitely a symptom of something wrong in the marriage. 

But taking care of that symptom right away, knocking that out right off the bat, gives space to looking at the deeper issues that may have provoked the affair.


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## anchorwatch

Beerman, you'll need to break up the A with exposure, and maybe seriously starting D procedures. She is addicted, and all addicts fail before they hit rock bottom. You won't know whether it's worth you both working toward getting the M you want until the effects of the addiction have worn off. 

If you choose otherwise, you might browse this site to prepare. I'm not for M at all cost, but D doesn't address the faults in an M, it only ends one. 

http://www.dadsdivorce.com


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## 6301

Beerman said:


> Apperently she is very much in love with this guy, who also happens to be married. Im thinking why even try to trust her anymore. She has told me she wants a divorce, but we both decided to try to work it out. Ya right. Im trying, shes not.
> 
> I hate snooping on her all the time and feel guilty about it but I have no choice. Please give me some feedback and thoughts on my situation and maybe the next steps i should take. Sorry if I am rambling on, just alot of feelings going on right now.


 Yes you do have a choice. You can sit and do nothing and let her continue with her affair or you can go try on a pair of "Alpha Pants" and swing a real heavy hammer down on this situation.

She brought this on, not you. Let her know that if she wants the marriage to work then she better be prepared to do the heavy lifting and prove to you that she wants it.

If she isn't willing then tell her to get a job and go live with the guy because she's no longer welcome in the house. Get a lawyer, file and have her served with divorce papers. 

Another thing to make the point. If your sharing a bed with her, hand her sheets, pillow and a blanket and tell her that the couch is her bed and shes' isn't welcome in the martial bed with you. 

Separate your bank accounts, and open it in your name, take her off the credit cards, and put he on an island where she can finally see what her affair has caused.

Honestly, if your marriage has been shaky for a while and you aren't happy, then why do you want to continue.

If your not happy, she's not happy, then what makes you think that the kids are? You think they can't see through the smoke and mirrors? Believe me they know what happy is and they know what unhappy is. They just haven't said anything because there kids but they know.

IMO, end it and you can stop the bleeding.


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## TryingTilda

I guess I agree with ending the affair, but (not quoting here), but "hand her the papers, etc., then she will have to work blah, blah, blah". Men make it about the money too often. 
Also, there are kids involved that need a stable home!


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## bandit.45

TryingTilda said:


> Also, there are kids involved that need a stable home!


Yeah well she should have thought that out before she started cheating.


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## jld

TryingTilda said:


> I guess I agree with ending the affair, but (not quoting here), but "hand her the papers, etc., then she will have to work blah, blah, blah". Men make it about the money too often.
> Also, there are kids involved that need a stable home!


For sure, he has his own issues, Tilda. He is controlling, for one. He "has to snoop"? 

And we are only hearing one side. For all we know, her not working feeds into his control tendencies. "She doesn't know how good she has it"? She may think the same thing about him.

But he is bringing in money, and that is something that needs to be respected and appreciated. And it could be that she enjoys getting a job, and then there will be one less reason to reconcile with him.

I just don't think cheating is in the best interest of anyone. Doesn't make people feel good about themselves, in the long or short term. I think it would be a kindness to put pressure on her to end it.

Probably they just should've gone for divorce when he found out about the affair. It sounds like she was open to it. 

I think a divorce would actually be very empowering for her. And he may realize things he's been taking for granted, though it doesn't seem that way to him right now.

I hear you on the kids, Tilda. If these two could both put aside their pride and do what's in the best interest of their family, I think they could have a true reconciliation. But without transparency, on both sides, I just don't see how that's going to happen. And the kids will pay a price for that.


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## EleGirl

jld said:


> For sure, he has his own issues, Tilda. He is controlling, for one. He "has to snoop"? .


When an affair is involved, snooping is not a controlling action. It's self protection. His wife was lying to him, telling him that the affair was over. Turns out that she was lying. He had every reason and right to find out what is really going on is his life.


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## EleGirl

Beerman,

There is a book that I think will help you through this: "Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Harley.



.


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## jld

EleGirl said:


> When an affair is involved, snooping is not a controlling action. It's self protection. His wife was lying to him, telling him that the affair was over. Turns out that she was lying. He had every reason and right to find out what is really going on is his life.


Well, if the whole issue to you is stopping the affair, and doing it by any means necessary, maybe snooping is the way to go.

To me, reconciliation means a lot more than stopping the affair. It means lots of heart-to-heart talks and turning over a new leaf, together. It means being vulnerable to one another and genuinely caring about meeting each other's deepest emotional needs.

I think you can feel when you've made that connection to one another, and you see it in each other's actions.

What is he realistically going to do, Ele, as far as trusting her? Is he going to keep a VAR around for the rest of her life, just to make sure she's not having an affair? 

If you're going to go with control techniques, then I'm guessing that's the kind of thing you'll have to keep up forever. Because there's always a chance . . .


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## EleGirl

jld said:


> Well, if the whole issue to you is stopping the affair, and doing it by any means necessary, maybe snooping is the way to go.


A couple cannot start to recover when one of them is actively having an affair. The affair has to end first. A person has the right to know if they are being lied to. Most cheaters will continue the affair and continue to lie to their spouse.


jld said:


> To me, reconciliation means a lot more than stopping the affair. It means lots of heart-to-heart talks and turning over a new leaf, together. It means being vulnerable to one another and genuinely caring about meeting each other's deepest emotional needs.


Like I said.. recovery cannot start until the affair is ended and all the lying has stopped.



jld said:


> I think you can feel when you've made that connection to one another, and you see it in each other's actions.


A lot of people think that they have a great marriage. They feel that they have a great connection to their spouse. Then one day they find out that the entire time the spouse has been cheating and lying. So no, relying on gut feelings and intuition is not enough.


jld said:


> What is he realistically going to do, Ele, as far as trusting her? Is he going to keep a VAR around for the rest of her life, just to make sure she's not having an affair?


The couples has to implement complete transparency and put in place rules in their relationship the make it virtually impossible for one of them to maintain a double life with cheating and lies. With that everything is open.


jld said:


> If you're going to go with control techniques, then I'm guessing that's the kind of thing you'll have to keep up forever. Because there's always a chance . . .


Finding out the truth is not a control technique. Once a person finds out that their spouse is cheating they have the option to dump their spouse. Very often they just go for divorce. 

What you are saying is that a person has no right to find out if their spouse is cheating on them. That a person can cheat with impunity and that the BS has no right to the truth and no right to make their own decisions.


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## temperance

I agreed with most of the comments. Sent the other man's wife a private message on her facebook. 

Did she tell you what is she unhappy about the marriage with you? 
But it doesn't matter there is nothing to work out if she is having an EA with someone else. Until she got dump, which will be achieve by exposing this affair with the OM's wife for sure. She is just infatuated. 

I guess the question you need to ask yourself, even if she came back to you after you 'threaten' with divorce, can you take her back? Would you trust that she is not coming back because because of financial support, or she truthfully wants to work things out as a partner, a lover, a wife? 

Maybe I missed something, how young are your kids?


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## jld

EleGirl said:


> What you are saying is that a person has no right to find out if their spouse is cheating on them. That a person can cheat with impunity and that the BS has no right to the truth and no right to make their own decisions.


People can do whatever they want to do, Ele. Or are VARs illegal? Not sure about that.

This man is free to just pursue a divorce right now. I'm not even sure his wife would object.

I don't think there was a true effort at reconciliation by both of them here. And it would take two to do that. Transparency and humility would be paramount.

I've said many times on this forum that I think automatic divorce in the case of infidelity would be helpful. It would force transparency on both sides. The whole thing would be blown open for all the world to see. It would force accountability for both of them. 

If the couple wanted to reconcile after the divorce, that would certainly be possible. And it would be with a clean slate for both of them, a true restart.

People have the right to divorce for any reason they want, even the suspicion of infidelity. If you don't feel total trust in your partner, a divorce may be the best way to go.


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## EleGirl

jld said:


> People can do whatever they want to do, Ele. Or are VARs illegal? Not sure about that.


It depends on the state/country and how they are used.


jld said:


> This man is free to just pursue a divorce right now. I'm not even sure his wife would object.


She told him that she wanted to reconcile. They were working on reconciliation. She told him that the affair was over and there was no contact. Then he found out that through their reconciliation so far she’s been lying to him and has continued the affair. The only way he could find out that she is lying is to snoop. He has the right to know that his wife is lying to him. He now knows the truth and he knows that she has been faking a recovery.

You seem to think that he has no right to know whether or not his wife is lying to him. Do you really think that a person has to right to protect themselves?



jld said:


> I don't think there was a true effort at reconciliation by both of them here. And it would take two to do that. Transparency and humility would be paramount.


Obviously she has not been trying to truly reconcile as she has been in an affair the entire time and lying to him.

You have no idea whether or not the OP has been making an honest attempt to reconcile.

You are telling that OP that he has no right to know the truth. That he has to accept any lie that his wife tells him. How is that transparency. 


jld said:


> I've said many times on this forum that I think automatic divorce in the case of infidelity would be helpful. It would force transparency on both sides. The whole thing would be blown open for all the world to see. It would force accountability for both of them.


How does automatic divorce force transparency? No one needs to be transparent when there is divorce. All it does is to end their marriage. It does not make anyone honest or truthful. 
The law only recognizes actual sex as infidelity. And this is very very hard to prove as there are usually no cameras or videos around to capture the sex. This is why adultery is seldom used as the cause for divorce. 


jld said:


> If the couple wanted to reconcile after the divorce, that would certainly be possible. And it would be with a clean slate for both of them, a true restart.


I disagree. A divorce is not a line in the sand that erases all pre-divorce transgressions. The relationship existed before and after the divorce. What matters is what the partners have done during the entire relationship.




jld said:


> People have the right to divorce for any reason they want, even the suspicion of infidelity. If you don't feel total trust in your partner, a divorce may be the best way to go.


Have you ever been cheated on?


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## EleGirl

jld said:


> People can do whatever they want to do, Ele.


I wanted to expand on this...

Yes she can cheat all she wants. 

And he can do whatever he wants. Apparently the OP wants protect himself by finding out the truth. It's not controlling to find out the truth. The controlling part comes in how he acts after he knows the truth.

If he locks her in a room .. that's controlling. 

If he intimidates her through verbal/emotional abuse to end the affair... that's controlling.

But if he tells the OM's wife about the affair.. that's not controlling as he cannot control the outcome of this action. At least this way the OM's wife can make a decision for herself. It's not controlling to let someone know that their spouse is cheating.

If it happens that exposing the affair does not end the affair then so be it. Again there is no control here because all parties can act/react as they chose.


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## jld

Ele, if she wants to cheat, she will find a way to do it, VAR or no VAR.

She told him a few weeks ago that she wanted to reconcile. She resumed contact with the OM only recently, as I understand the opening post. I think she did want to reconcile, but changed her mind. I also think the reconciliation was not very organized. Were expectations clear? Was there accountability, besides in secret?

Mr. Beerman, I think your wife abandoned reconciliation because her deepest emotional needs are not being met. I think that's why women have emotional affairs. 

When you exposed the affair a few weeks ago, she may have had hope that things would change. But I don't think they did. I think she lost hope. 

But our deepest emotional needs do not just go away. 

The affair partner was meeting them for her before, and ultimately she went back to where she would be fed, however illegitimately. If you want her to be faithful, Mr. Beerman, I think you need to start meeting those deep emotional needs. 

I know it's not fair. I know you feel wronged. I know your trust has been broken. But if you want to avoid a divorce, I think that focusing on meeting those emotional needs of your wife is a reasonable option. 

I don't believe you're going to get to trust through control techniques. As I understand it, from Ele, you have a right to use them depending on where you live. But I think the kind of relationship that, deep down, you want with your wife, goes beyond "rights."

You want to trust her. You want to know she has your back. You don't ultimately want to use recorders to "know" that. You want to feel it in your heart and know it in your soul. And I think the only way that is truly going to come about is if you first meet her deepest emotional needs. That is what will tie her to you. That is what will draw her in.

You don't have to do any of this. You could just divorce her right now. You know she broke reconciliation. I think other than financial support, she's probably given up on you. Anyone would understand why you would give up on her, too.

@Ele: I think divorcing has a way of letting out truths that may not otherwise be known. Total transparency? Maybe not. But it seems like, from the divorces I've seen, many things get told that would otherwise be hidden in the marriage.

No, I have not been cheated on. But I cannot see myself using these control techniques. I just could not do it. Even having suspicions of infidelity would ruin my trust in and my respect for my husband. It just would not be the same again.

Ele, just curious, and very sincerely, what does marriage mean to you? Surely you don't think it's something that you force people to be in, constantly checking up on them, verifying whether or not they are meeting your expectations?

If I felt the need to do something like that in my marriage, I think what Dug and I have would already be over.

Just saw your last post. I think Mrs. Beerman would perceive a voice activated recorder as a control technique.


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## EleGirl

jld said:


> Ele, just curious, and very sincerely, what does marriage mean to you? Surely you don't think it's something that you force people to be in, constantly checking up on them, verifying whether or not they are meeting your expectations?


Of course I don't think of marriage as something to be forced on another person. I have never suggested that a person constantly check on their spouse.



jld said:


> If I felt the need to do something like that in my marriage, I think what Dug and I have would already be over.
> 
> Just saw your last post. I think Mrs. Beerman would perceive a voice activated recorder as a control technique.


Lying to one's spouse to hide an affair from them is a control techniques. By lying to the OP and leading him to believe that she is working towards reconciliation with him, she is controlling him.


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## anchorwatch

So hiding the A from her H is not the ultimate form of control, by deceiving him out of his right to decide his own future, based on the truth. The same form of control is being played out on the OMW too. Deception is one of the worst forms of control. Exposure allows all parties to decide their future based on the truth.


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## jld

EleGirl said:


> Lying to one's spouse to hide an affair from them is a control techniques. By lying to the OP and leading him to believe that she is working towards reconciliation with him, she is controlling him.


So which is going to break out of it first? Who is the stronger partner?


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## jld

anchorwatch said:


> Deception is one of the worst forms of control. Exposure allows all parties to decide their future based on the truth.


I agree. Open and honest is the way to go. For both of them.


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## Thor

TryingTilda said:


> I'm not condoning affairs but they happen because something is wrong in the marriage.


Studies consistently show that many cheaters report being happy overall in their marriage. Yes there are bad marriages, too. But not all cheaters are in bad marriages.


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## EleGirl

jld said:


> I agree. Open and honest is the way to go. For both of them.


But she will not be honest. He has no control over her choice to lie and cheat.

So if he wants to know the truth he has to "snoop".

In a marriage in which there is transparency it's not snooping because both spouses agree that their lives are an open book to each other.


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## EleGirl

jld said:


> So which is going to break out of it first? Who is the stronger partner?


The stronger partner is the one who finds out the truth and refuses to continue to put up with a lying spouse. So I guess the OP is the stronger partner.


----------



## jld

Thor said:


> Studies consistently show that *many cheaters report being happy overall in their marriage. *Yes there are bad marriages, too. But not all cheaters are in bad marriages.


I've definitely heard that about men. Some men who cheat are very happy with their wives; they really have no complaints about them at all. They just want a variety of sex partners.

I've also read that there is a percentage of men and women who are simply serial cheaters. Who knows why.

From what I have read about women who cheat, it is often because their emotional needs are not getting met. 

Based on what I've read, I would hesitate to recommend that a woman take back a cheating husband. I think there is much more hope for taking back a cheating wife, if he starts to meet her deepest emotional needs. 

Obviously, YMMV.


----------



## jld

EleGirl said:


> So I guess the OP is the stronger partner.


I agree. I think it is rarely the cheating partner who is stronger. I almost cannot think of a single example. Cheating is a sign of weakness.


----------



## Thor

jld said:


> Based on what I've read, I would hesitate to recommend that a woman take back a cheating husband. I think there is much more hope for taking back a cheating wife, if he starts to meet her deepest emotional needs.


From my observations I think it is highly risky for either gender to take back a cheater. Absent strong additional factors I think a D is almost always the better course.


----------



## jld

Thor said:


> From my observations I think it is highly risky for either gender to take back a cheater. Absent strong additional factors I think a D is almost always the better course.


Why Men Cheat vs Why Women Cheat - Yahoo Voices - voices.yahoo.com

_For most men, sex is the primary motivating factor for cheating on their mate. The majority of the reasons cheating men give for their infidelity were directly or indirectly related to sex.

On the other hand, women who were cheating on their spouses or significant others had different motivations for their affairs. The primary motivating factors for cheating wives are linked to unmet emotional needs or dissatisfaction with their marriage, or their mate._

Meet her emotional needs, her deepest ones, and you'll likely be back in business. Him, who knows?

And the crazy thing is, women are more likely to take back cheating men than vice versa. Upside down!


----------



## naiveonedave

JLD I think there is less hope taking back a WW. Read CWI, men to a large extent can't get over it. THe pure human nature of it.


----------



## Thor

Plus, many women whose needs aren't being met do NOT end up cheating. They find a way to either get their needs met within the marriage or they leave the marriage. A woman who cheats because her needs aren't being met has a set of ground rules which allows cheating when her needs aren't being met! So in the future, if something goes wrong in the marriage, what keeps her from cheating again?

The ebook "Women's Infidelity" provides an excellent window into this mindset.

And honestly, a marriage is never the same after infidelity. It seems very rare that the marriage blossoms into something really good. If that happens, then staying together is great. But in most cases I know in real life the marriage is damaged forever, and the BH is never really happy or relaxed.


----------



## soccermom2three

I agree with Thor. In my marriage there were years when my needs weren't being met and cheating never entered my mind. Divorce, yes, cheating no. That's why I think when you wipe away all the "unmet needs" stuff, basically cheating just comes down to a character issue.


----------



## naiveonedave

JLD - another thought. The lying spouse has a stronger position in that they know the truth. It makes a weaker person stronger.


----------



## jld

naiveonedave said:


> JLD - another thought. The lying spouse has a stronger position in that they know the truth. It makes a weaker person stronger.


That's not strength, Dave. It's control.

Strength is the ability to do the right thing, no matter what. Mr. Beerman is feeling guilty about using the VAR because he knows in his heart it's not the right thing to do. But his desire to have control is greater than his desire to do the right thing.


----------



## TryingTilda

Maybe for her getting caught cheating and then getting handed the divorce papers is easier than rationalizing with Beerman. Is that beer like "beer", like Budweiser? Is their some significance to that?


----------



## jld

TryingTilda said:


> Maybe for her getting caught cheating and then getting handed the divorce papers is easier than rationalizing with Beerman. Is that beer like "beer", like Budweiser? Is their some significance to that?


Probably. I wish Mrs. Beerman were here to give her side of the story.

Mr. Beerman, if you're still reading, I think you could save this thing. I don't even think you would have to take the measures I suggested in my first post. I think all you would really have to do is clean up your side of the street and your wife would respond. But you would really have to do a thorough cleaning job.

Start listening to her, start listening to her deepest heart. Consider the things you heard her saying on the VAR. I don't think she wanted to turn to that other man. I think she would rather turn to you. If you start meeting the needs of her deepest heart, I think she will turn back to you.

I think this all really depends on you, Mr. Beerman. Think about the things she's told you over the years that you've neglected to act on. Think about the ways you've ignored her. I think you love her. I doubt the other man does.

You can do this, if you humble yourself and focus on what you've done wrong, instead of blaming her.


----------



## jld

naiveonedave said:


> JLD I think there is less hope taking back a WW. Read CWI, men to a large extent can't get over it. THe pure human nature of it.


I know. They are very prideful.

I think men who humble themselves, and look at the ways they haven't met their wife's emotional needs, can win back their spouse. They need to take ownership of the problem. The betrayal is a problem, but I think it is moreso a symptom of the bigger problem: the disconnect in the marriage.

So a lot of men could solve their problems pretty simply. But they can't get past their pride. They hold onto their bitterness and resentment like a shield. I'm amazed their wives stay with them.

And then you have women, who really should divorce their cheating husbands, who seem much more willing to take one back. Again, it's upside down.


----------



## anchorwatch

It doesn't make good sense to believe anything deceptive person has to say, and only to believe half of what they do.

That's why it makes sense for the OP to verify what she was actually doing. 

Which he did, and again she was proven a liar.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Had enough of the wife*



jld said:


> I know. They are very prideful.
> 
> I think men who humble themselves, and look at the ways they haven't met their wife's emotional needs, can win back their spouse. They need to take ownership of the problem. The betrayal is a problem, but I think it is moreso a symptom of the bigger problem: the disconnect in the marriage.
> 
> So a lot of men could solve their problems pretty simply. But they can't get past their pride. They hold onto their bitterness and resentment like a shield. I'm amazed their wives stay with them.
> 
> And then you have women, who really should divorce their cheating husbands, who seem much more willing to take one back. Again, it's upside down.


Jld:

It is not always about pride. Sure, it is for some. But another aspect is much more primitive than that. 

Deep down, I believe most men know they should be leaders in their families, even when they aren't. The betrayal is a rebuke of that leadership. Then you add the lying that always accompanies the affair. It violates the structure, or unit that a man is supposed to be leading, and it causes him to question many of the things that make him a male. 

Eh, maybe it is just me or I am doing a **** poor job of explaining. 

Additionally, I don't think men value security (for the most part) like females, so they are more willing to wipe the slate clean and start fresh.

Is pride a factor? Sure. But there are other aspects at play as well.

Eta: Even Jesus had people who refused to embrace his humble, servant style of leadership. Humbling oneself is not always the answer as some cannot be saved. Sometimes you have to walk away. They have to want to be saved.


----------



## Duguesclin

farsidejunky said:


> Jld:
> 
> It is not always about pride. Sure, it is for some. But another aspect is much more primitive than that.
> 
> Deep down, I believe most men know they should be leaders in their families, even when they aren't. The betrayal is a rebuke of that leadership. Then you add the lying that always accompanies the affair. It violates the structure, or unit that a man is supposed to be leading, and it causes him to question many of the things that make him a male.
> 
> Eh, maybe it is just me or I am doing a **** poor job of explaining.
> 
> Additionally, I don't think men value security (for the most part) like females, so they are more willing to wipe the slate clean and start fresh.
> 
> Is pride a factor? Sure. But there are other aspects at play as well.
> 
> Eta: Even Jesus had people who refused to embrace his humble, servant style of leadership. Humbling oneself is not always the answer as some cannot be saved. Sometimes you have to walk away. They have to want to be saved.


You can call it many different ways, but at the end it is still pride.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Jld:
> 
> It is not always about pride. Sure, it is for some. But another aspect is much more primitive than that.
> 
> *Deep down, I believe most men know they should be leaders in their families, even when they aren't. The betrayal is a rebuke of that leadership. Then you add the lying that always accompanies the affair. It violates the structure, or unit that a man is supposed to be leading, and it causes him to question many of the things that make him a male. *
> 
> Eh, maybe it is just me or I am doing a **** poor job of explaining.
> 
> Additionally, I don't think men value security (for the most part) like females, so they are more willing to wipe the slate clean and start fresh.
> 
> Is pride a factor? Sure. But there are other aspects at play as well.
> 
> Eta: Even Jesus had people who refused to embrace his humble, servant style of leadership. Humbling oneself is not always the answer as some cannot be saved. Sometimes you have to walk away. They have to want to be saved.


You can't give up so easily, far. Don't blame your wife. Ask yourself why she is not responding to your leadership and correct it. Take responsibility.

If she is lying, it is likely because she thinks you cannot handle the truth. Become able to handle it.

Most wives do not want to go to another man. Most love their husbands. Serial cheaters would likely be an exception to this, especially if they have cheated on previous boyfriends as well as their husbands.

I know it is hard, far. It is so much more comforting to blame your wife. But leaders do not think that way. They think about what they can do to influence others, not how unfair life has been to them.


----------



## GTdad

Duguesclin said:


> You can call it many different ways, but at the end it is still pride.


One of those different ways you can call it is "self respect", and it's usually a strength, not a flaw.


----------



## jld

GTdad said:


> One of those different ways you can call it is "self respect", and it's usually a strength, not a flaw.


Not all men take it personally, GT. Not all men feel threatened by it.


----------



## GTdad

jld said:


> Not all men take it personally, GT. Not all men feel threatened by it.


Take what personally? Threatened by what? I'm not sure what you're getting at.


----------



## jld

GTdad said:


> Take what personally? Threatened by what? I'm not sure what you're getting at.


Her infidelity. Her character flaw. 

They see it as her weakness, how she dealt with her unmet needs. They do not take it as a measure of their own self-worth, though they may see it as a reason to improve as husbands.


----------



## GTdad

jld said:


> Her infidelity. Her character flaw.
> 
> They see it as her weakness, how she dealt with her unmet needs. They do not take it as a measure of their own self-worth, though they may see it as a reason to improve as husbands.


Do you recognize the possibility that a man can recognize his wife's infidelity as her weakness and not reflective of their own self-worth, and still have the self-respect to end the relationship?


----------



## jld

GTdad said:


> Do you recognize the possibility that a man can recognize his wife's infidelity as her weakness and not reflective of their own self-worth, and still have the self-respect to end the relationship?


Sounds like pride to me. Or just recognition of an inability, or unwillingness, to meet her needs.


----------



## anchorwatch

Who conveys the truth, that her needs were unmet? 

Her?


----------



## GTdad

jld said:


> Sounds like pride to me. Or just recognition of an inability, or unwillingness, to meet her needs.


Unwillingness, perhaps. But rather unwillingness to tolerate crappy behavior or toxic people, understanding that life is too short to put up with that kind of nonsense.

You've probably mentioned this before one way or the other, but is that a test your husband has had to deal with?


----------



## Chaparral

Cheating doesn't have to do with unmet needs, it has to do with morality. That's why so.many cheaters say they were happy in their relationship. They simply sucombed to the need to breed. They universally believe they can get laid and not get caught.

A M is a website for married people that do not want a divorce.

80% of cheaters do not get caught if you believe the research.

Cheaters are simply selfish.


----------



## jld

GTdad said:


> Unwillingness, perhaps. But rather unwillingness to tolerate crappy behavior or toxic people, understanding that life is too short to put up with that kind of nonsense.
> 
> You've probably mentioned this before one way or the other, but is that a test your husband has had to deal with?


Cheating? No, GT. And I have not, either.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Had enough of the wife*



jld said:


> Sounds like pride to me. Or just recognition of an inability, or unwillingness, to meet her needs.


Her need to have a boyfriend outside of marriage exceeds the amount of men I have inside of me. Clearly that is a character flaw on my part. However, if I were schizophrenic, I would be golden because both of us could meet her needs...


----------



## jld

anchorwatch said:


> Who conveys the truth, that her needs were unmet?
> 
> Her?


I think so. Do you not?


----------



## jld

Chaparral said:


> Cheating doesn't have to do with unmet needs, it has to do with morality. That's why so.many cheaters say they were happy in their relationship. They simply sucombed to the need to breed. They universally believe they can get laid and not get caught.
> 
> A M is a website for married people that do not want a divorce.
> 
> 80% of cheaters do not get caught if you believe the research.
> 
> Cheaters are simply selfish.


Well, from what I have read, for example that article I linked above, men usually are happy with their wives, but cheat anyway. Women usually cheat because of unmet needs. And then there is the category of serial cheaters of either sex . . .

Cheaters cheat themselves, first and foremost. They have to live with their consciences.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Her need to have a boyfriend outside of marriage exceeds the amount of men I have inside of me. Clearly that is a character flaw on my part. However, if I were schizophrenic, I would be golden because both of us could meet her needs...


What does this mean?


----------



## jld

naiveonedave said:


> JLD I think there is less hope taking back a WW. Read CWI, men to a large extent can't get over it. THe pure human nature of it.


I was thinking about this some more, and here are my thoughts . . .

We can talk 'til the cows come home about personal responsibility, and morality, and blame, and right v. wrong, etc., or we can take a more primitive approach, which may actually be pretty effective.

Many men believe they own their wives. Politically incorrect, but there it is. I have heard women say the same thing, but my sense is it is stronger in men. 

Now, some folks get upset when this is mentioned. But if it is true, how about just working with it?

If you really want to own a woman, meet her deepest needs. To do that, you really have to get to know her. You have to spend time with her, pay attention to her, study her. You want to know her inside and out, what makes her tick.

Use that knowledge. Tie strings of love between you two. Be the one she goes to first with the sorrows of her heart. Be her patient, understanding confidant. Be her rock.

Meeting her deepest emotional needs will earn you her trust. You will become her safe person. She will know that no matter how bad things seem, she can go to you and together you will tackle the problem.

So you know you want to own her. And you have some ideas for how to do it. Get to it. Become her hero.


----------



## anchorwatch

jld, 

I believe as a fellow from my town, once said. "If you could kick the person in the pants responsible for most of your trouble, you wouldn't sit for a month." T. R. 

But, I don't believe liars. She is a liar. 

Maybe you don't realize it, but I think you are going off the playing field here. Your post are suggesting that its his fault that she's is destroying a marriage and family. In that, his perceived, and yet unproven neglect is a worse transgression toward the M, then her infidelity. Then you're taking issue with him finding her cheating an affront to him and his marriage. That's my perception.


----------



## jld

anchorwatch said:


> jld,
> 
> While I believe no one is without fault. I don't believe liars.


But you are watching her actions, right? Not her words.


----------



## anchorwatch

jld said:


> But you are watching her actions, right? Not her words.


Right!


Sorry, I hit submit before I finished.


----------



## jld

anchorwatch said:


> jld,
> 
> I believe as a fellow from my town, once said. "If you could kick the person in the pants responsible for most of your trouble, you wouldn't sit for a month." T. R.


:rofl: Love that. How true, for all of us. 



> But, I don't believe liars. She is a liar.
> 
> Maybe you don't realize it, but I think you are going off the playing field here. Your post are suggesting that its his fault that she's is destroying a marriage and family. In that, his perceived, and yet unproven neglect is a worse transgression toward the M, then her infidelity. Then you're taking issue with him finding her cheating an affront to him and his marriage. That's my perception.


Cheating is unhealthy. It hurts everybody. That is why it is wrong: because it does not bring anything good.

I am all about solving problems, anch. Cheating compounds problems. 

But cheating does not usually come out of thin air. If you want to solve a problem, you have to look at where it comes from.

Or do you not want to solve the problem? You just want to blame, and call it a day?


----------



## john117

So, my fellow Europeans who have elevated infidelity to the national pastime are wrong?


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> So, my fellow Europeans who have elevated infidelity to the national pastime are wrong?


Dug is not a cheater. And he is French.


----------



## john117

Well, there's populations and there's individuals. If you selected 1000 Frenchmen at random how many of them would agree with Dug?

My village featured cheating so rampant that figuring out paternity in the pre DNA testing epoch was a challenge... Yet nobody ever divorced, the farms kept running....


----------



## anchorwatch

jld said:


> But cheating does not usually come out of thin air. If you want to solve a problem, you have to look at where it comes from.
> 
> I believe infidelity to be the choice of the adulterer. Yes they each own a percentage of faults in the M, but the A is on the party with the dirty hands. As for R, against the usual grain, I agree, that all faults in the M, must be addressed.
> 
> Or do you not want to solve the problem? You just want to blame, and call it a day?
> 
> You know better than that. You read what I wrote him. I want every OP to identify for themselves what the relevant problems are, then address the ones they might have an effect upon, and learn how to walk away from the ones they can't.


----------



## jld

I will tell you what, anch, if my daughter had an affair, I would tell her to think about why she did it, and communicate that clearly to her husband. If, and only if, he were willing to work on fixing what he contributed, as well as her working on what she contributed, would I advise them to stay together. And if they could not, I would advise them to split. No sense in wasting anyone's time.

And I don't remember what everyone wrote. I don't even remember everything I write.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Well, there's populations and there's individuals. If you selected 1000 Frenchmen at random how many of them would agree with Dug?
> 
> My village featured cheating so rampant that figuring out paternity in the pre DNA testing epoch was a challenge... Yet nobody ever divorced, the farms kept running....


You do not think many? I will ask Dug.

I hear you, that Americans are puritans. It is kind of who we are, john.

I do not know if I could get past cheating. I don't think I could share, either. 

I hope I never find out. I think it would greatly lower my respect for my husband. 

We have a great deal of trust in one another, and a great deal of love and commitment. Even though I know it would be practical to stay together anyway, something very beautiful would be lost.


----------



## john117

Two relatives got divorced due to cheating. One, my traffic stopping beauty bank manager cousin dumped her husband of twelve years after he cheated with a fellow high school teacher who looked like the Wicked Witch of the West. My cousin, as I said, stopped traffic with her looks. The only reason she dumped him was that he cheated with "such a woman"...

The other was my aunt, mom's sister, who was pretty much estranged but living under the same roof with her husband for a decade. The husband cheated quite openly but she had other things to deal with like health concerns. Finally they divorced. I made great money babysitting her daughter  

The village... As I said, Sodoma and Gomorrah does not begin to describe it. But people accepted it. (My early, ehem, introduction to the world of, ehem, FWB was with Duck. Her grandpa, a distant relative of some kind, owned the local coffee store and taught me backgammon. Her dad owned the general store and had an awesome looking wife that was rumored to be, ehem, available. So the lineage of Duck and her siblings was always suspect. Not that we cared or they cared.... 

Nobody got hurt, and Duck probably has a few Ducklings of her own...

C'est la vie as the French say . I often joke I should go back to my village and see who's available - mostly smoking widows... Nobody can recall a single divorce there.


----------



## jld

I hear you, john. It might be a more mature way of viewing sexuality. Humans are not all pure.

That said, I really do not want my marriage to go through adultery. I just really do not want to go through that. I think transparency is key.

I thought you said Duck was childless?


----------



## anchorwatch

jld said:


> I will tell you what, anch, if my daughter had an affair, I would tell her to think about why she did it, and communicate that clearly to her husband. If, and only if, he were willing to work on fixing what he contributed, as well as her working on what she contributed, would I advise them to stay together. And if they could not, I would advise them to split. No sense in wasting anyone's time.
> 
> And I don't remember what everyone wrote. I don't even remember everything I write.


I agree, and I advocate, as do all of the respected programs and counselors, that both parties must address their failings in the M in order for R to occur. What I don't agree with is that you're assuming without question that your daughter's H must have had some fault that caused her infidelity. I say don't be so quick to jump to conclusions, that may not be so. There are people who are just selfish. They cheat, or steal, or lie, and no one else contributed to them doing so. 

So that's the end of my part in this tj. I don't think it really effected the OP, since he's gone on looking for more than we offer here.


----------



## jld

Well, he would not have had what was needed to prevent it, either.

I know it is hard for men to hear it, but I think it is up to him to keep her attraction. All the laws and VARs on earth are not going to keep her faithful; her own attraction to him, her own desire to be faithful, will. 

And I don't think this all comes from inside her. Ideally it would, but if not . . . 

I think he draws her to himself. If he no longer does, he needs to look at himself. If he wants to keep her with him, it can only benefit him to take a hard look at what he is doing. 

Even if they part, he will have learned a lot and made himself more ready for the next woman.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> I hear you, john. It might be a more mature way of viewing sexuality. Humans are not all pure.
> 
> That said, I really do not want my marriage to go through adultery. I just really do not want to go through that. I think transparency is key.
> 
> I thought you said Duck was childless?



Not sure what she did. I haven't been to the village in 15 years. She probably married, they all did. I've connected on FB with a few drinking buddies from there, maybe I will ask.

Transparency is key, but so is happiness.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Not sure what she did. I haven't been to the village in 15 years. She probably married, they all did. I've connected on FB with a few drinking buddies from there, maybe I will ask.
> 
> Transparency is key, but so is happiness.


I thought you said she was a professor in England?

Transparency is supposed to _lead_ to happiness.


----------



## john117

Duck was a girl in my village era age 15-16. The now psych professor in the UK was my flame but we met later.

Interestingly enough my aunt who divorced knew the flame girl . They were sort of neighbors in the capital and aunt, being a government health care manager knew about her and her family. Quite well as it turns out. Too well.

She verified every bit of information told to me... Yea, HIPPA is your friend :rofl:. That's transparency incidentally. To feel comfortable enough with someone and reveal your inner self. I felt it made her happy to be transparent, even when she revealed things that would make Oprah cringe.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> That's transparency incidentally. To feel comfortable enough with someone and reveal your inner self. I felt it made her happy to be transparent.


That is _trust._ And you should feel honored. You earned that.


----------



## john117

I did earn it. True that. She was the only woman I can think of that never once asked me for anything material or practical. In the time we were together I don't ever recall buying her a gift. Or her buying me one. Just emotional and intellectual fulfillment. 

Life...


----------



## Beerman

Holy Sh%%! We are getting deep here. Let me answer a few questions here. First, Im trying to keep a somewhat good attitude about this. My whole life I have been"always following somebody" if ya know what I mean. Some of you are right. I have let my wife control my life. I have done everything to make her happy. I understand thats why she is having an EA. Or at least one of the reasons. Again I am very beta. But I am working on it. MMSL was quite a wakeup call. I just have to be careful right now. To much Alpha at one time can actually make things worse. 

Second, I like beer. All kinds of beer. But not to much

Third, This guy live in California. He has now been to see her, as far as I know. But it wouldnt suprise me if he has. Just havent caught her yet. To tell you all my plans, and please tell me if this is a good Idea, I plan on serving her papers. Also I am doing some research on the other guys wife to see if coI can contact her. Also I am going to tell her parents. I have a great relationship with them. In fact my wife has told me that I have more in common with my Father in law than his own son does. If I cant talk some sense into her, maybe her family can. Is that a good Idea or not.


----------



## Beerman

One more thing. My kids are my first priority right now. I just what to do what would be the best for them. I do not want them to live in a household where the mom and dad do not get along and hate each other. My wifes mom and dad are that way. They sleep in different rooms and generally do not get along. Thats how my wife grew up. Does that not answer a few questions? I do not want to make the same mistake they have done.


----------



## Baablacksheep

jld said:


> Well, he would not have had what was needed to prevent it, either.
> 
> I know it is hard for men to hear it, but I think it is up to him to keep her attraction. All the laws and VARs on earth are not going to keep her faithful; her own attraction to him, her own desire to be faithful, will.
> 
> And I don't think this all comes from inside her. Ideally it would, but if not . . .
> 
> I think he draws her to himself. If he no longer does, he needs to look at himself. If he wants to keep her with him, it can only benefit him to take a hard look at what he is doing.
> 
> Even if they part, he will have learned a lot and made himself more ready for the next woman.


I'm sorry but I totally disagree with this. Blaming him for her transgression is like kicking the cat because the dog chewed up your shoes. He and his wife are each 50% responsible for the problems in the marriage. But SHE IS 100% RESPONSIBLE FOR THE OM !!!!!!!! Putting a 3rd partner in a troubled marriage is playing with fire. He needs to take strong action here, not placate her, not cater to her. Expose this to OM's wife, expose to the families, She's got her heads in the clouds, thinking all she has to do is trade him in for another model and the problems all go away. 

Beerman I support you putting the VAR on her. I wouldn't tell her about them either. You have every right to verify that she is indeed being honest. She has already proven herself a liar twice over. This really should be in CWI forum. If this isn't physical it isn't far from it.


----------



## jld

Mr. Beerman, what you plan to do may shock sense into her and refocus her on the marriage. But unless you start to meet her deepest emotional needs, I do not think you will ever be able to trust her.

If you want to focus only on how wrong her affair is, you may just want to go ahead with divorce. Humans have needs that they will always seek to meet, laws or VARs or their parents' approval notwithstanding.

Divorce would force your wife to get a job, and that would be a good thing. It might be the only thing tying her to you right now. If she breaks that tie, she may let you go completely.

Consider googling How to meet your wife's emotional needs, and doing what is suggested, if you want her to drop the affair and recommit to you, of her own accord.


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## Baablacksheep

The advice given is valid if the OM is not in the picture. Right now she's living in fairytale land. She hasn't had to deal with everyday things with OM, so it's not a fair comparison at all. She has to stop all contact with OM for this to work. Otherwise OP comes off as big time Beta, he's OK with her emotionally cheating, he'll kiss her behind, do anything to keep her. That is very beta, and will lead to cuckoldry. A woman who tells her husband she wants to reconcile but talks to OM at the same time is cake eating and not being respectful to him. If she doesn't respect him she won't love him either.


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## turnera

Beerman said:


> Is it bad right now to feel like I don't even want to try to resolve this situation and try to change my wife's feelings? I feel emotionally exhausted. The more and more I find out about this EA the more and more I really don't care. Do I sound confused or stupid or what?


Understandable, but think about the BIG picture - you're working 2 jobs; that income will just be cut in half in terms of spending power when YOU -since she's a SAHM - have to now pay for TWO homes. You'll never see your kids; you'll be too busy working. You think you're exhausted _now_?


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## jld

Baablacksheep said:


> The advice given is valid if the OM is not in the picture. Right now she's living in fairytale land. She hasn't had to deal with everyday things with OM, so it's not a fair comparison at all. She has to stop all contact with OM for this to work. Otherwise OP comes off as big time Beta, he's OK with her emotionally cheating, he'll kiss her behind, do anything to keep her. That is very beta, and will lead to cuckoldry. A woman who tells her husband she wants to reconcile but talks to OM at the same time is cake eating and not being respectful to him. If she doesn't respect him she won't love him either.


Divorce papers would wake her up very quickly.


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## turnera

At this stage, I recommend that you (1) tell her if she doesn't cut all contact TODAY, you will file for divorce AND custody and she'll be getting a job whether she wants to or not; (2) move all money into a separate account so that she can't use the money (neither can you) - give her a weekly allowance for food; (3) call her parents TODAY if she refuses to end contact; (4) install a keylogger if she uses computer or get access to her phone account so you can monitor (cheaters usually slip up 4 or 5 times even when trying to go NC). That's not too alpha, it's you expecting what a husband has a right to expect. Can you do this much?


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## Baablacksheep

turnera said:


> Understandable, but think about the BIG picture - you're working 2 jobs; that income will just be cut in half in terms of spending power when YOU -since she's a SAHM - have to now pay for TWO homes. You'll never see your kids; you'll be too busy working. You think you're exhausted _now_?


This right here is what f'd up with this country. A SAHM can cheat, sleep around , do what ever, and the courts essentially reward her for it.


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## Thor

Be sure to have your VARs and keylogger in place when you confront her. She may well make some panicked calls or emails.

Also, you may want to have a VAR on you when you confront her. Two reasons for this. One is that she may become violent or verbally abusive. If she calls 911 and makes a false complaint, you will have the evidence to exonerate yourself. Second, she may say something which you later wish to recall. I have had many difficult conversations where I later realize I missed things or have a fuzzy memory of them. Or, she later says something different and denies she ever said something in the earlier conversation.


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## john117

A VAR won't do you much good by recording audio only.... One could perform bad acts while reciting poetry...

Look for a covert gum stick pack USB video recorder...


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## TryingTilda

Cheating, for women, is definitely about unmet needs; that includes sex. It's not that the cheater is immoral.


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## anchorwatch

TryingTilda said:


> Cheating, for women, is definitely about unmet needs; that includes sex. It's not that the cheater is immoral.


*Well then, lets just say...*












*It seems that your view of morality is a bit skewed off center. *

*Foutunitly, most agree that cheating, which involves lying and deception, is immoral. *


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## john117

Morality is relative....


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## Chaparral

TryingTilda said:


> Cheating, for women, is definitely about unmet needs; that includes sex. It's not that the cheater is immoral.


I assume you have creditable sources for this information. What are they?


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## Dyokemm

"It's not that the cheater is immoral."

I disagree with this completely.

Betrayal is the absolute LOWEST form of behavior one human can exhibit towards another.

Gender or religious belief (or lack thereof such as myself) are irrelevant in judging it.

It is simply despicable....I know of no human culture or social grouping in history that has ever tolerated or promoted it.


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## john117

They are just better at hiding it.


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## tennisstar

Maybe he didn't meet her needs, or maybe she's just bored. Some non working spouses can become bored. But blaming him for her cheating is not right. She cheated. 

He may or may not be partly to blame, but I don't think it's right to just say it is because of something he did or didn't do. Probably with him working so much and her staying home, they lost touch and drifted apart. That is on both of them, not just him. 

I don't buy this "blame the man" philosophy. Sometimes it is her fault, sometimes his, sometimes both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Iver

Thor said:


> Be sure to have your VARs and keylogger in place when you confront her. She may well make some panicked calls or emails. ...


This especially. I'd consider this highly likely. 

I'd also recommend contacting the OM's wife first before confronting your wife. Otherwise the OM will come up with a cover story.

You could even start with the OM's wife and wait for the S. to hit the fan then drop the divorce papers on your wife.


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## jld

Dyokemm said:


> "It's not that the cheater is immoral."
> 
> I disagree with this completely.
> 
> *Betrayal is the absolute LOWEST form of behavior one human can exhibit towards another.*. Worse than murder?
> 
> Gender or religious belief (or lack thereof such as myself) are irrelevant in judging it.
> 
> It is simply despicable...*.I know of no human culture or social grouping in history that has ever tolerated or promoted it.* You mean for women, right?


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## Dyokemm

jld,

Infidelity is just one form of betrayal...I was referring to betrayal in all of its forms.

I consider it to be the equivalent of murder...and yes in some forms/circumstances it may actually be worse...an example would be a parent who betrayed their own child into slavery or sexual exploitation IMO.

The second point you are making is a good one if I was referring to infidelity specifically....some societies do indeed not look on male infidelity as being a form of betrayal....I should have accounted for that in my statement.

I personally do not accept the view that male infidelity does not count as a form of betrayal...IMO it is as bad as any other form of this despicable act.

I was actually saying that no human society has ever celebrated or promoted betrayal as a general principle....every society has viewed traitors as particularly vicious and disgusting individuals.

Since I view ALL infidelity as an act of betrayal, I was just disagreeing with the posted opinion that cheating does not make someone an immoral person....IMO they are amongst the lowest and vilest of all people.


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## jld

I do not want to threadjack, Dyo, so I will just make this comment, and get back to the thread: I can think of _many_ things much worse than infidelity, and I would _certainly_ put selling a child into sexual slavery on that list.


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## 3Xnocharm

jld said:


> I do not want to threadjack, Dyo, so I will just make this comment, and get back to the thread: I can think of _many_ things much worse than infidelity, and I would _certainly_ put selling a child into sexual slavery on that list.


TOO LATE!! You threadjacked, like you always do, two pages back! Sheesh!! Why the hell do you have to argue EVERYTHING? Two pages wasted, not helping Beerman with his issue.


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## jld

3Xnocharm said:


> TOO LATE!! You threadjacked, like you always do, two pages back! Sheesh!! Why the hell do you have to argue EVERYTHING? Two pages wasted, not helping Beerman with his issue.


Sorry to see you get so emotional, 3x. Some of us like to think things through from different sides, not just take the one popularly accepted approach, however validating some might find it. I think _everything _written here is helpful to Mr. Beerman as he considers what to do in his situation. YMMV

Mr. Beerman, good luck with however you decide to tackle your issue. There will be consequences to whichever approach you take. Just be sure you, and your family, can live with them.


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## turnera

jld said:


> *Sorry to see you get so emotional*, 3x. Some of us like to think things through from different sides, not just take the one popularly accepted approach, however validating some might find it. I think _everything _written here is helpful to Mr. Beerman as he considers what to do in his situation. YMMV


jld, are you aware that the response bolded above is passive aggressive and, well, just plain condescending? Maybe it works in your household, but you'd wondered before why you become at odds with many people here. Well, that's why.


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## pidge70

turnera said:


> jld, are you aware that the response bolded above is passive aggressive and, well, just plain condescending? Maybe it works in your household, but you'd wondered before why you become at odds with many people here. Well, that's why.


It's what she does. It's her "schtick".


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## 3Xnocharm

turnera said:


> jld, are you aware that the response bolded above is passive aggressive and, well, just plain condescending? Maybe it works in your household, but you'd wondered before why you become at odds with many people here. Well, that's why.


Thank you!!


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## Baablacksheep

Well this thread is getting way off track, now it's becoming a bash jld thread [grin] I personally am OK with jld having a different opinion than I, that's her right, just like it's mine. Even with the disagreement in we had with beerman's course of action. I was sharing what I felt true, she was sharing what she felt true. That's what makes this forum a good place, because all can share their opinions. She may be alone in her opinion, she may have everyone else agreeing. But either way it's still her right to have that.

Carry on folks \"/


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## vellocet

3Xnocharm said:


> TOO LATE!! You threadjacked, like you always do, two pages back! Sheesh!! Why the hell do you have to argue EVERYTHING? Two pages wasted, not helping Beerman with his issue.


That's because she has a problem with any man that might want to not give a 2nd chance to a cheating woman.
To her, men that try to understand what they did for their wives to cheat on them and give them a 2nd chance are more of a man than those that decide they want better for themselves and has had enough of a cheating wife.


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## vellocet

jld said:


> I do not want to threadjack, Dyo, so I will just make this comment, and get back to the thread: I can think of _many_ things much worse than infidelity, and I would _certainly_ put selling a child into sexual slavery on that list.


Sure. But we are talking about infidelity here, not child sex slavery.

Murder is worse than someone beat up on a daily basis at school...so why don't we just act as if bullying isn't so bad


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## colotnk

jld said:


> Based on what I've read, I would hesitate to recommend that a woman take back a cheating husband. I think there is much more hope for taking back a cheating wife, if he starts to meet her deepest emotional needs.


From a woman and with all due respect :wtf:


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## 3Xnocharm

Beerman...any updates? How are things going?


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## vellocet

jld said:


> From what I have read about women who cheat, it is often because their emotional needs are not getting met.
> 
> Based on what I've read, I would hesitate to recommend that a woman take back a cheating husband. I think there is much more hope for taking back a cheating wife, if he starts to meet her deepest emotional needs.





TryingTilda said:


> Cheating, for women, is definitely about unmet needs; that includes sex. It's not that the cheater is immoral.


Ah, so when a woman cheats, its because the husband pushed her to it and somehow that should be understood.

When a man cheats, he's just a low down dirty dog.

Sorry, gotta call both of you on this :bsflag:


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## marriedmanhere

vellocet said:


> Ah, so when a woman cheats, its because the husband pushed her to it and somehow that should be understood.
> 
> When a man cheats, he's just a low down dirty dog.
> 
> Sorry, gotta call both of you on this :bsflag:


It can be the same in the movies. If the husband cheats, he is a jerk. If the wife cheats, it is the husbands fault.

Bridges of ******* County
The Piano
The Horse Whisperer
A Walk on the Moon

Even in Sleepless in Seattle. Meg Ryan is engaged and looking for another man.

Titanic.. the girl is engaged.


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## Clay2013

vellocet said:


> Ah, so when a woman cheats, its because the husband pushed her to it and somehow that should be understood.
> 
> When a man cheats, he's just a low down dirty dog.
> 
> Sorry, gotta call both of you on this :bsflag:


Its really not surprising to see a woman take this standpoint. I dated a woman about 5 years ago that argued this same point. I personally disagree with it. I think everyone should be held accountable for there actions but Its clear not all feel that way. 

I personally hope the OP is doing well and moving forward with leaving her. I personally never recommend anyone stay with a cheater. Its just not worth it in my opinion. I am sure there are a few cases where it will work out. The odds were just never in my favor. 

Clay


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## Dyokemm

"Its really not surprising to see a woman take this standpoint. I dated a woman about 5 years ago that argued this same point. I personally disagree with it. I think everyone should be held accountable for there actions but Its clear not all feel that way."

The simple fact is that the capacity for evil actions of all kinds, not just infidelity, remains a rather large blind spot in American culture.

Society is far more shocked to hear of female murderers. child killers, etc.....they create a far larger sensation in the news coverage cause the public is more shocked and curious...How could they possibly do this?

If the perp is a male, society just seems to shrug its collective shoulders and move on...there is no extra effort into trying to understand why...its just assumed men are just like that.

Ironically, one high profile crime seems to actually be MORE prevalent today with females...I'm speaking of the number of female teachers caught with their hands in the student 'cookie jar'.


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## Beerman

Holy Sh*&! Relax everybody! It dosent have to be world war 3 between diffrent sexes! I was hoping to come here to hear some advice, and from what I have read all I read is *****in from one gender to another. Im about to give up!

This has nothing to do with slavery, or about what men think or women think! Sorry to be selfish but this is about what my best move is. I came here thinking that I could get some good advice on being a better husband to my wife. I agree with a few of you that I am pretty beta and boring. I rrealize that now. Thanks to mmsl. But Holy crap. Not to be rude, but shut the HELL up! I need advice! Not battle between the sexes!

Tennisstar, Thank you for posting that. That is exactly the truth! I have not met her needs! I know that now. She even told me she started all this because she was bored! I now this and am starting the nessesary steps to overcome this. But marriage is a 50/50 split. I have a hard time giving 50% of effort toward our marriage when I dont get anything in return. I dont want to be an ******* towards her either. But maybe I have to.

Sorry if I have offended anybody here. That was not my intention.


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## anchorwatch

Well at least your head is in the right place. 

What is the situation now?

Has the A stoped?

What is your goal?


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## Thor

Beerman said:


> I have not met her needs! I know that now. She even told me she started all this because she was bored! I now this and am starting the nessesary steps to overcome this.


A few lines need to be drawn between concepts there.

Yes, you are not perfect, and yes you did not meet all of her needs perfectly. All of us are like that, imperfect. Learn what you can do better, and make efforts to actually be a better partner.

I don't know that it is at all fair to say the marriage is a 50/50 proposition, all the way to assigning 50/50 fault for a bad marriage. One person could be at 90% fault for a bad marriage, e.g. with an addiction problem. So, be objective and don't take on more blame for the marital imperfections than you are due.

It may be strictly accurate that your wife started the affair out of boredom. *But*, that does not make her boredom the cause of the affair. Nor do your imperfections (which may have led to her boredom) take any blame for her affair. Don't connect dots which are not related! Imperfect you, her boredom, her affair. Nope, not the correct connections!

Why didn't you meet her needs? What would it have taken for you to have better met her needs? What would the steps of that process have looked like?

Probably Step 1 would have been her communicating to you she was unhappy and that her needs weren't being met. Probably the next few steps would have involved discussions about what those needs were, how you might meet them, you trying different things, and evaluating progress. Something like that.

Her needs are *HER* responsibility. Likewise, you getting your needs met is your responsibility. That is the clear line which needs to be drawn, separating the different dots. Her being bored because needs weren't being met is a direct failure of HERS, not yours. So, she failed to get her needs met, and then she made the terrible choice to get them met outside of the marriage.

Notice she did set out to get her needs met, but she did it the wrong way. She took on the responsibility to get those needs met! So don't let her blame you, and don't let you blame you, for her needs not being met before the A.


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## 3Xnocharm

Beerman said:


> Tennisstar, Thank you for posting that. That is exactly the truth! I have not met her needs! I know that now. *She even told me she started all this because she was bored! *I now this and am starting the nessesary steps to overcome this. But marriage is a 50/50 split. I have a hard time giving 50% of effort toward our marriage when I dont get anything in return. I dont want to be an ******* towards her either. But maybe I have to.
> 
> Sorry if I have offended anybody here. That was not my intention.


She cannot put the blame for HER indiscretion on you. Her needs may not have been being met the way she wanted them to be, but she should have come to YOU to say, HEY! This or that isnt working for me, not turned to another man because she was "bored". So what I am reading here is that YOU are going to step up to try and meet her needs, but SHE needs to do the heavy lifting here to fix what she broke. There needs to be true remorse and transparency on her side. Has she agreed to marriage counseling? Has she agreed to NO CONTACT with the OM?


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## turnera

Do you really want to be married to a person who says 'if you let me become bored I will go screw another man'? That's like being married to a woman who says 'I want a house this month, so I don't cheat. Next month, you owe me a BMW. The month after that, you owe me....' - what? Her own island?

(actually I KNOW a young woman who has done exactly this; she's remarried to her AP, pregnant with his kid - after he kept buying her bigger and better stuff - and now cheating on him with her instructor)


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## vellocet

Beerman said:


> Holy Sh*&! Relax everybody! It dosent have to be world war 3 between diffrent sexes!


No, it doesn't have to be. But a few posters come in here and make it about that by coming in here and giving you much different advice as they'd give to their fellow females. So nuff said about that.

So bottom line, you have to do what you think is right. I suppose I could say follow your heart, but use your head in the process.

For me, I don't care if its a man or woman, I will always advice getting rid of someone unfaithful. But that's me. You have to do whats best for you. But don't let anyone tell you that you need to meet your cheater's needs. That's a given if you decide to reconcile, but not until the cheating has been adequately dealt with and the WS owns their crap.




> This has nothing to do with slavery, or about what men think or women think! Sorry to be selfish but this is about what my best move is.


Exactly. Just don't let anyone think this is your fault. 




> I came here thinking that I could get some good advice on being a better husband to my wife. I agree with a few of you that I am pretty beta and boring.


If your desire is to reconcile, the BOTH of you have a lot of improving to do. I just don't want someone coming in here and pointing the finger at you, much less you pointing the finger at yourself.

Yes, meet your wife's needs after the infidelity has been properly dealt with. But don't do so out of fear that she will cheat again. Because nobody can meet every little need of someone else, and shouldn't have to be afraid they won't be perfect. Not saying you are afraid of that, just saying since you are basically being blamed for her cheating.

And simply being "beta" or being "bored" is the lousiest excuse to cheat even if there was such a thing as a good excuse.




> Sorry if I have offended anybody here. That was not my intention.


No offense taken. I just hate to see you take advice from a particular crowd that would have you cowtowing to your cheating wife as if you are the only one that needs to work on this marriage.

Do whats best for you. If reconciliation is your desire, yes, strive to be the best husband you can be, but hold your WS's feet to the fire as well. She has a little more to work on than you here.


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## anchorwatch

Beer, 

You said you've read and been to MMSL. 

Here is the other part Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends". This can give you a way to move forward. 

But you will find out quickly there is no chance to move forward until the A dies. The best way to do that is *TELL THE OMW!!!*


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## Chaparral

If you haven't told the other mans wife, you haven't even started down the correct path to reconcilliation. The likely result is that the affair isn't over. Telling his wife has her watching the other end of this mess. Men rarely leave their family for a cheating partner. Ill, he literally can't trust your wife either.

His wife deserves to know and you need to prove to your wife you are a stand up guy and her boyfriend can kiss your a$$.


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## barbados

pidge70 said:


> It's what she does. It's her "schtick".


and she is not alone unfortunately. Many other members do similar things. Not a troll, but with somewhat of a similar slant that is to bait others in threads.


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## Beerman

ok! Thank you for all the advise. My wife has shown me that she has broken it off with the OM. I believe her. As of right now she is in pain, as she realized she has done harm to our relationship. But she is not the only one who has done major damage. In the past I have not been so faithful to her. I have lied to her may times. I am truly heart broken about the way I have acted. She is truly a wonderful and absolutly beautiful woman and I have taken advantage of her somewhat. Please dont judge me or her for we both are at fault for getting us into the situation we are in. I am going forward to try to be the best husband and father I can be. I really just hope she can follow.'

We fought a bit tonight. But I realized that we are communicating. And that is a huge step in the right direction. Even after almost 9 years of marriage I still am learning. I really do love her with all my heart(even thought we are sleeping in diffrent beds. I got a cold. ) Again thank you for all the advice.


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## D.H Mosquito

Maybe reclaiming your rightful place in bed beside her instead of sleeping seperately will help her forgot him m ore quickly


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## EleGirl

Thor said:


> Her needs are *HER* responsibility. Likewise, you getting your needs met is your responsibility. That is the clear line which needs to be drawn, separating the different dots. Her being bored because needs weren't being met is a direct failure of HERS, not yours. So, she failed to get her needs met, and then she made the terrible choice to get them met outside of the marriage.


Can you clarify on this. Let's look at another need.

Say a person A has the need for affection from their spouse. A tell their spouse that they need affection. But the spouse will not give affection. So how is A supposed to get their needs for affection met if their spouse refuses to give them affection?


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## john117

Easy. One adjusts to an affection less life with huge resentment build up and monumentally bad long term results.

People reap what they sow... Then act surprised when they are held accountable for their actions.


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## Thor

EleGirl said:


> Can you clarify on this. Let's look at another need.
> 
> Say a person A has the need for affection from their spouse. A tell their spouse that they need affection. But the spouse will not give affection. So how is A supposed to get their needs for affection met if their spouse refuses to give them affection?


Good question. Person A cannot force anyone to provide affection. They can ask for it, they can explain what the need is, and they can try to explain how they want their need to be met.

And if the spouse still won't meet the need, and if it is a real need rather than a want, Person A will have to find a different person than the spouse to meet the need. The moral way to do this is D first, then find another person to meet the need.

While it is Person A's responsibility to get their needs met, the spouse has a moral responsibility to make his/her best effort to meet Person A's needs.

The important concept is that the spouse has no obligation to be a mind reader or to try everything under the sun to try to figure out what Person A's needs are. If Person A won't communicate his/her needs, it is their fault if their needs aren't being met.


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## john117

No reason to be a mind reader. If one can't read their spouse and can't correlate the readings with "typical" readings from the population then they really are in trouble.

Example - husband is not into sports except the NCAA basketball team where his offspring's attending (good program btw). Most husbands enjoy sports. Therefore a few days in March husband needs time to watch the playoffs.

If she can't figure this out on her own then something is seriously wrong with her. If she won't figure it out on her own...

Most needs are basic and easily determined. I have esoteric needs too like a $6k carbon fiber bicycle that weighs nothing...


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## turnera

Beerman, now is the perfect time for you two to read His Needs Her Needs together.


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## Thor

john117 said:


> No reason to be a mind reader. If one can't read their spouse and can't correlate the readings with "typical" readings from the population then they really are in trouble.
> 
> Example - husband is not into sports except the NCAA basketball team where his offspring's attending (good program btw). Most husbands enjoy sports. Therefore a few days in March husband needs time to watch the playoffs.
> 
> If she can't figure this out on her own then something is seriously wrong with her. If she won't figure it out on her own...
> 
> Most needs are basic and easily determined. I have esoteric needs too like a $6k carbon fiber bicycle that weighs nothing...


Men and women are not so good at figuring out needs sometimes. He might not know that she needs him to just stfu and listen to her talk. He might not know that she needs some verbal affirmations. If these are needs for her, and if she is feeling upset that he isn't doing these things, it is her responsibility to speak up and clue him in.

If she is feeling things are too bland in the bedroom, she has to speak up and say she is a bit bored.

For her to not attempt to communicate these needs makes it entirely her fault if her needs are not met. She has no justification in having an affair because she was bored or her needs weren't met.

On the other hand, if she has tried numerous times to communicate these things but her husband has made no efforts, then she is justified in feeling bored or that her needs aren't being met. This is still not justification for an A, but it is justification for her taking more drastic measures such as pushing for MC or even going for D.


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## 3Xnocharm

Beerman said:


> ok! Thank you for all the advise. My wife has shown me that she has broken it off with the OM. I believe her. As of right now she is in pain, as she realized she has done harm to our relationship. But she is not the only one who has done major damage. In the past I have not been so faithful to her. I have lied to her may times. I am truly heart broken about the way I have acted. She is truly a wonderful and absolutly beautiful woman and I have taken advantage of her somewhat. Please dont judge me or her for we both are at fault for getting us into the situation we are in. I am going forward to try to be the best husband and father I can be. I really just hope she can follow.'
> 
> We fought a bit tonight. But I realized that we are communicating. And that is a huge step in the right direction. Even after almost 9 years of marriage I still am learning. I really do love her with all my heart(even thought we are sleeping in diffrent beds. I got a cold. ) Again thank you for all the advice.


So she has gone from being "very much in love" with some other man, to suddenly breaking it off, to being "wonderful and beautiful" in your eyes, within a few days' time? AND now you are taking blame as if you drove her to this? You really need to tread carefully right now. Get the two of you into therapy, quick. Its easy to be lulled into thinking all is suddenly ok and rugsweep what happened, only to have it happen again. Best of luck to you guys, I hope you can make it work.


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