# When to leave



## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

I read this post by Mytime37 tonight in another thread, and it hit home with me almost word for word. 



Mytime37 said:


> How do you know when to leave? When you can't sleep at night. When you dread coming home. When you feel anxious, depressed and unhappy all the time. When you feel better when you aren't around him. When you see your child is tense and afraid. When you feel like your spirit is dying. When you keep having the same issue over and over again with no end in sight.
> 
> That's when you know to leave.


Here's my deal...my marriage is not the most horrible marriage. It could be worse...much worse. My H does not hit me, throw things at me, scream at me. He works steadily, he's law abiding, he's not secretive, he never lies (it's one of his most hated things that people do). 

He does have bipolar 2, and I suspect BPD (the "waif" type, always the victim, never feels well, harbors resentment toward me, assumes ill intent on my part when there is none). He's extremely emotionally needy and self-focused...there has never been time in our 19 year marriage to worry about my needs or emotions...everything is wrapped up in tending to his needs. 

Our sex life is horrible...about 1–2 times a month at most, and has been this way our entire marriage. I never orgasm. I don't even try anymore. He has gained a lot of weight, and this along with his emotional neglect and constant focus on his every physical ailment, pain, irregularity, etc has caused me to lose attraction for him. It's sad, because I'm at a point in my life where sex ought to be awesome and frequent and adventurous...but I've been waiting 19 years for that to happen, and it ain't. 

So...going back to the above quote...I can say "yes" to everything she mentioned there without hesitation. But I still struggle with the little voice inside my head that says "hey, things could be way worse...a lot of people make their marriages work with WAY worse problems than that...what right do I have to break up a family...maybe I'm just expecting too much...I'm being selfish for wanting a fulfilling sex life with a man who is not 100+ lbs overweight..." I guess...a lot of people would wish that the problems I'm facing are all they had to deal with, when they are dealing with abuse, infidelity, lying, unemployment, etc. 

I'm interested in what you all think when you read the quoted list of signs of "when to leave". Does it ring true with you? Did it ring true in the past and you acted upon these feelings? Or...did it ring true but you chose to ignore it and continued trying to save your marriage?

A side note: I did read the book "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay". If I follow the way the book guides me, I should leave. I've read it twice to make sure. I'm not going to let a book be the deciding factor in staying or going, but it did add some interesting insight. Also, I've been going to IC. Just started MC last week. I'm not encouraged so far based on my H's comments to me after the first session. But I'm going to keep going as long as will still go without me dragging him. I'm not sure how long he'll last before he quits.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

I've read some of your posts.

You are not ready to leave. Table it for now.

I chose to wait until my children were grown. It is not the popular choice on these forums but it was the right choice for my children. They are both thriving as adults.

There will come a day when you will be ready to leave because you will have a plan. Right now you are hoping your husband will change.

Hope is not a plan.

I am hoping you can find peace soon in your life.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

For me, when I breathe a sigh of relief because he's walking out the door instead of when he's walking in, I know I'm getting near that point and I start planning. I don't wait for long or hope for much. 

This has meant that I've been a serial monogamist with a long string of failed relationships as I've worked to not only make myself the best partner I can be, but to insist on that as well.

I guess my question for you WUTL, is whether you'd be happier if you stayed or if you left. Some people find happiness naturally, and for some of us (like me) moving on doesn't necessarily make us happier.


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## Terri72 (Jan 17, 2013)

I am going thru something similar, it has only been one year and we have no children. He was "second hand" diagnosed with BP, it now appears it was Marijuana Psychosis. One thing that has stayed with him since the 6 months of huge pot usage is that he is Narcissistic, similar to some of the characteristics you have described above, all I can say is that the Psychologist I have been seeing says the thing that makes him the saddest is so many older women (60s-80s) come in and say, "well I am finally going to leave him, can not take this anymore" most of their life is over, if they could have done it again they would have left when they were in there 20's and they have huge regret, anyway, that was a piece of advice that has stuck with me and making me stronger about leaving my husband soon, unless some miracle happens.

This describes my husband perfectly, although he falls under the Narcissistic category apparantly:

(the "waif" type, always the victim, never feels well, harbors resentment toward me, assumes ill intent on my part when there is none). He's extremely emotionally needy and self-focused...there has never been time in our 19 year marriage to worry about my needs or emotions...everything is wrapped up in tending to his needs.


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

"says the thing that makes him the saddest is so many older women (60s-80s) come in and say, "well I am finally going to leave him, can not take this anymore" most of their life is over, if they could have done it again they would have left when they were in there 20's and they have huge regret..."

This is precisely what I'm afraid of. I feel like I have so much living to do, so much fun to have, such a burning desire to be myself, express myself, make my own decisions...what it boils down to is: can I accomplish these things and get my needs met by staying in this marriage? I truly don't know. What I want is a happy marriage, a husband whom I look forward to going home to every day, someone who can take up the emotional slack when I'm down and vice versa. I don't want to have a 'just tolerable' marriage. 

Sorry guys, I'm really feeling down today...fighting back the tears before I walk into work this morning. This indecisiveness is killing me. I can barely cope with it anymore, but I see no peace of mind in sight any time soon. Really feeling like this is how I'm going to be stuck feeling for a very long time, and the thought of it is unbearable. Perhaps this is what a nervous breakdown feels like.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Waking up to life said:


> I read this post by Mytime37 tonight in another thread, and it hit home with me almost word for word.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just because others have it "worse" does not mean that you have to endure your situation. Its ok that you are unhappy, it does not need to be justified to or by anyone else. Dont compare your situation to others, because only YOU live your life. 

You ask if this quoted list rang true, for me it is a solid YES, and YES I acted. I stated in that same thread that its time to leave when you have way more unhappy than happy. I knew it was time because of the things you quoted, my unhappy was greater than my happy, and I unconciously found myself thinking about/planning to leave. You KNOW when you are done, that doesnt mean that its easy, but you KNOW.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Waking up to life said:


> "says the thing that makes him the saddest is so many older women (60s-80s) come in and say, "well I am finally going to leave him, can not take this anymore" most of their life is over, if they could have done it again they would have left when they were in there 20's and they have huge regret..."
> 
> This is precisely what I'm afraid of. I feel like I have so much living to do, so much fun to have, such a burning desire to be myself, express myself, make my own decisions...what it boils down to is: can I accomplish these things and get my needs met by staying in this marriage? I truly don't know. What I want is a happy marriage, a husband whom I look forward to going home to every day, someone who can take up the emotional slack when I'm down and vice versa. I don't want to have a 'just tolerable' marriage.
> 
> ...


Remind me why you stay? 

I mean, seriously, I cannot imagine an amount of money that would pay enough to offset being in misery for years at a time, and I can't imagine myself believing it's helpful to my kids to see me miserable constantly, so what else is there?


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Waking up to life said:


> "says the thing that makes him the saddest is so many older women (60s-80s) come in and say, "well I am finally going to leave him, can not take this anymore" most of their life is over, if they could have done it again they would have left when they were in there 20's and they have huge regret..."
> 
> This is precisely what I'm afraid of. I feel like I have so much living to do, so much fun to have, such a burning desire to be myself, express myself, make my own decisions...what it boils down to is: can I accomplish these things and get my needs met by staying in this marriage? I truly don't know. What I want is a happy marriage, a husband whom I look forward to going home to every day, someone who can take up the emotional slack when I'm down and vice versa. I don't want to have a 'just tolerable' marriage.
> 
> ...


I understand you want a happy marriage. We all do.

I think it would be helpful for you to decide first if you will be happier without your husband alone. Don't look at leaving your husband as the key to a happier marriage with the kind of man you want because you may never find that.

So start with "will I be happier alone." Alone also means you will be free to follow your dreams of a happy marriage.

Start envisioning your day to day life alone. What will your days look like? 

Many, many people make the mistake of leaving a so-so marriage with thoughts of finding that "perfect" partner that will make them happy. Sometimes, that dream doesn't come true & they regret leaving & not working on the marriage.

Another example is a job. I have left jobs that I thought were horrible only to get another one that was worse. I then looked back at the old job & thought of ways I could have made it better.

Maybe you can find ways to make your marriage better. Sometimes when we make changes alone, dynamics in marriage will also change.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

> How do you know when to leave? When you can't sleep at night. When you dread coming home. When you feel anxious, depressed and unhappy all the time. When you feel better when you aren't around him. When you see your child is tense and afraid. When you feel like your spirit is dying. When you keep having the same issue over and over again with no end in sight.





> I'm interested in what you all think when you read the quoted list of signs of "when to leave". Does it ring true with you? Did it ring true in the past and you acted upon these feelings? Or...did it ring true but you chose to ignore it and continued trying to save your marriage?


Yes I went through the “can’t sleep at night”; stewing about the marriage.

Yes I went through the anxiety and dread of him walking through the door

Yes, the children and I were afraid of him and walked on eggshells around him lest we set him off

Yes my spirit died after 20 years of this marriage

Yes no matter how many times I approached him about the verbal abuse toward the children, he ignored it and continued to put them down, call them names, and be harsh. But I had believed some stupid theology about “husbands need respect” so I never corrected him in front of them. I made excuses for him (his father was so mean to him, he doesn’t know any better) and told them they need to respect him anyway.

Yes it rings true, but *no I didn’t ignore it!*

Around 2004, I got angry. I got counseling (IC and MC). (The MC said in 10 years he had never had a client as controlling as my husband). I grew a backbone. I stopped ***** footing around and walking on eggshells. I started defending and protecting the children whenever he get’s out of line with them.

AND I stopped stewing about him and about the marriage. I drew a line in the sand and if he crosses it we are done. He still travels and I enjoy his on the road times. When he is home he has a way of dramatically increasing the stress level at home. But nowadays, when he is out of sight, he is out of mind. 

Your feeling anxious, depressed, unhappy all the time? That you have power to change. I went back to school (defying his wishes BTW- he liked the control of me being SAHM). I do things for myself- hobbies, exercise, a Bible study group of girlfriends- we have been through thick and thin together for >8 years.

One thing which kept me going with him is that if we split there would surely be visitation. Not sure with the climate nowadays if I have enough evidence for supervision to be required? Imagine your frightened children not having you there to protect them and your husband angered by the loss of control over you using them as pawns to hurt you? In my husband's case, he'd be likely to also be driving them while drunk and exposing them to porn and sleazy pick-ups. For me, I feel my children are safer with both of us under one roof and hubby is safer from his own demons. He behaves himself better at home than he does apart from me (he has never looked at porn at home).

Unlike your situation, we have a great sex life, lots of passion. And hubby is very fit and handsome. It does tend to compensate for the difficulties.


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## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

Waking up to life said:


> This is precisely what I'm afraid of. I feel like I have so much living to do, so much fun to have, such a burning desire to be myself, express myself, make my own decisions...what it boils down to is: can I accomplish these things and get my needs met by staying in this marriage? I truly don't know. What I want is a happy marriage, a husband whom I look forward to going home to every day, someone who can take up the emotional slack when I'm down and vice versa. I don't want to have a 'just tolerable' marriage.
> .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can't imagine if anyone would want to stay in a marriage as you describe. You fell out of love and you don't have that closeness with special someone (your husband). Are you sure your h isn't seeing anyone at all? Usually, in this type of situation, it cuts both ways?


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> Remind me why you stay?
> 
> I mean, seriously, I cannot imagine an amount of money that would pay enough to offset being in misery for years at a time, and I can't imagine myself believing it's helpful to my kids to see me miserable constantly, so what else is there?



This book was an eye opener for me:

Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men

He points out how divorce can bring even more problems (when there are children involved). I could see my husband doing this.

Nowadays, I don't allow the control. I stand up for myself and for the children. And he has backed down and treats me with respect now. So the dynamic is healthier, not perfect but healthier.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

> I feel like I have so much living to do, so much fun to have, such a burning desire to be myself, express myself, make my own decisions...what it boils down to is: can I accomplish these things and get my needs met by staying in this marriage?


I would change the wording a bit. YES I have done all of this while staying in my marriage. But no, the source of my happiness and fulfillment isn't the marriage. 

Frankly, I often wonder if women expect too much from marriage- Cinderella, fairy tale, Prince Charming kind of happily ever after?


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> Remind me why you stay?
> 
> I mean, seriously, I cannot imagine an amount of money that would pay enough to offset being in misery for years at a time, and I can't imagine myself believing it's helpful to my kids to see me miserable constantly, so what else is there?


Good question Kathy...one I've stewed over quite a bit. And it goes along with Emerald's remark about whether I would truly be happier by myself. I guess I stay, for one, out of a sense of loyalty and pride. I've given my entire adult life to this man and to this marriage. To quit after this many years makes me feel like a failure. 

Things actually used to be much worse between us in the first 10-15 years of our marriage. I had much more reason to be unhappy then than I do now. But I refused to allow myself to admit it, acknowlege it, and I suppose I allowed him to make me feel like I was to blame for the all the problems in our marriage. 

When he was dx'd with Bipolar 2 (after I practically dragged him to the doctor), it became a crutch for him. He was allowed to be mean, irritable, unreasonable, uncaring, and I was expected to be "understanding" because he had Bipolar. And I was...too understanding...I let him trample all over my needs and emotions. I thought I was being a good wife by doing everything I could to help ease any stress from him, to help him in any way I could, to be stoic emotionally because he was "ill" and I shouldn't burden him with my feelings. So I buried them very deeply. 

Now he is less volatile, but still very needy emotionally. He needs constant approval, appreciation, and acceptance. Any oversight on my part of showing any of this, and the sad, guilt-trip, passive aggressive stuff comes out. Even as little as me getting distracted and forgetting to say thank you if he brings me my coffee. He'll make a point of it by saying "YOU'RE WELCOME!" or something in a snotty tone. I do say thank you and show appreciation to him as much as I can reasonably, but it can be exhausting when he takes it so personally if I don't. 

So I guess I stay because I have invested so much in this marriage, it's hard to accept that what I've waited so long for is never going to happen. It upsets me tremendously to think that 19 years later this is all I get. That's a huge part of my turmoil. I need to come to grips with this...but my mind fights it. When I allow myself to think, ok, this is as good as it's going to get, so live with it...I feel so disappointed. I've given my life to this marriage and the payoff is that I am emotionally beaten, sexually frustrated, and dreading the next 19 years living this way.

In my "noble" attempts to be stoic and be a "good wife" for so many years, I do believe I subconciously fell out of love with my husband. I put my emotions on autopilot for so long; now that I'm trying to reclaim myself, I have to question if I really do love him. Yes, I love him as far as being a decent guy and the father of our fantastic son and for being part of my life for so long. But do I love him romantically? Passionately? No. And it makes me incredibly sad to admit that.

If I left him, it absolutely wouldn't be to find someone else. I have to leave for ME, no one else. I have to love myself for awhile before I could love another man or expect him to love me. So no, I don't think I'm expecting my happiness to come from marriage. I can be quite happy on my own. I'm not a princess and I don't expect (nor have I ever had) a fairytale marriage. But IF I am going to be married, I don't want to just have a "tolerable" marriage. If I'm going to share my life with my husband, I want to be happy doing so. I know marriage is hard work, but if it's so hard that all I can do is try to make it bearable, then that's not the kind of marriage I want. My husband simply cannot and would not ever understand. He is relatively content, because I am his everything. To leave him would feel like I was dropping my son off at an orphanage because I didn't want him anymore. I can't be that cruel. But instead I am being cruel to myself. I know. There's no easy answer.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Re-read Blonde's post.

She found the courage to stop the madness & her husband stepped up to the plate. You are bodering on martydom here. You are not a victim of a bad marriage. You are a volunteer. If your husband is stabilized on bp meds then the medical excuse for his crappy behavior no longer exists.

You are very co-dependent on this man. ACCEPT that he is not going to change how he treats you on his own. You have to show & tell him how you expect to be treated.

Baby steps.

When he whines or acts passive-aggressive if you forget to thank him for bringing you coffee - IGNORE HIM or tell him to grow up. No further engagement.


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

I am codependent. I have come to realize that. I read Codependent No More and a lot of it rang true. My H is NOT on meds for his Bipolar. He stopped taking them last summer...says they don't help much. I agree to a point, b/c they only address a small part of his issues. He is majorly depressed but he completely denies it. He'll say he's hopeless, hates himself, hates being "fat", is lazy, is terrified of being alone, etc but in the next breath he'll flat out disagree when I suggest he's depressed. He won't go back to a psych. He thinks he's fine without meds. I got him to agree to go to MC b/c the therapist said he wanted to try to talk my H into seeing a psych again.

I am working on speaking up for myself and not letting him treat me like crap. It's a very hard pattern on behavior to break when it's gone on this long. I can do things like this when it depends on ME to make changes...but do I "tell him that I expect" him to lose weight and improve his health so we can attempt to have a decent sex life? I can't make him do those things. 

So I have to accept the fact that he will probably not ever lose weight...I will never have the sexual fulfillment from this marriage that I would like to have...I will never feel emotionally safe with him. If these things are true, then all the MC in the world will not help our marriage...and I will have to tell my H that unfortunately, he's basically not good enough for me and I no longer wish to be married to him. What appears to you as martyrdom is more of a great sense of insecurity...to take that step will require more courage than I can fathom having. I'm not afraid to live on my own. I am responsible and organized and I make decent money. I'm just not sure how to find the courage to take the ultimate stand for myself and leave him when I know it will tear him apart. It's illogical, I know.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

"...and I will have to tell my H that unfortunately, he's basically not good enough for me and I no longer wish to be married to him. "

You need to rethink this statement....this is not what this is about at all. This is your guilt talking. Your feelings are about you, and what you want, and what you are willing or not willing to deal with any more.


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

3Xnocharm said:


> "...and I will have to tell my H that unfortunately, he's basically not good enough for me and I no longer wish to be married to him. "
> 
> You need to rethink this statement....this is not what this is about at all. This is your guilt talking. Your feelings are about you, and what you want, and what you are willing or not willing to deal with any more.


You're right. I'm still learning to accept my feeings as my own. I'm so accustomed to sizing up my feelings with how they would affect my husband, what he would think, how he'd react. I know now that our marriage is one of complete enmeshment. It's incredibly difficult to try to separate my emotions from his. It's something I've not allowed myself to do...to have emotional autonomy...and it's not something he wants me to have because he's so emotionally dependent on me. But I am working hard to learn how to do this without ruining with guilt. Obviously I have a long way to go.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Waking...have you read any Schnarch books? To learn and understand about differentiation and the crucible (and other concepts)? I like Schnarch because he does talk about these completely enmeshed situations as if they are normal. In fact, he calls it normal marital sadism.


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