# Listening is more important than setting boundaries



## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Each time I have made significant progress in my relationship with my wife or at work, I had listened to my wife.

This may sound strange on a board where I hear a lot of issues between couples. But it is true.

I think, as guys, we tend to be very confident and end up ignoring our spouse very easily. With time this creates a barrier to communication and even destroys the trust. I know that each time I had serious issues with my wife, it was resolved by first being a little humble and, more importantly, to really listen. And not to only listen to the complaints, but trying to identify the underlying issues.

For example, when our first child was born, besides the traumatic event of the birth itself, we were faced, literally within minutes, with a baby girl that would not take no for an answer. The first 2-3 months were quite rough, coupled with a postpartum depression. I was focused on the baby and not really listening to my wife. I held the baby when she was crying, gave my expert advice and what to do with her, etc... I was blaming my wife's bad mood on the hormones and the lack of sleep. I thought it would get better after a while. 

Well it wasn't getting better! It is only after I really listened that I finally got it. I had to pay attention to her, and not to the baby. My wife was doing a perfect job with the baby. She just needed attention and interaction. The last thing she needed from me was to pay attention to the baby when I got home. She needed adult interaction.

It is key to be patient and listen, even when your wife is really frustrated and maybe saying words she should not say. I strongly believe that listening is much more powerful than setting some kind of diplomatic boundaries on what kind of behavior is acceptable and not acceptable.

Our needs are not the same. In my example my wife's needs as a lonely mother at home were very different than mine, a fully engaged employee at work.

I may be old fashioned, although I do not feel that old, but I think a man should first listen to his wife. It will serve him well!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You need both. 

Listening is more important when the issue is one that you can partly or wholly solve via your own actions. 

Boundaries matter more when the issue is internal to her, or has to do with work/third parties you have no control of. 

Enforcing boundaries and listening well are not mutually exclusive. 




Duguesclin said:


> Each time I have made significant progress in my relationship with my wife or at work, I had listened to my wife.
> 
> This may sound strange on a board where I hear a lot of issues between couples. But it is true.
> 
> ...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> You need both.
> 
> Listening is more important when the issue is one that you can partly or wholly solve via your own actions.
> 
> ...


Listening?

What if she doesn't mean what she says?

Better to watch what she actually does.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Every single problem in a relationship is blamed on men not ****ing listening. It might be the case that you had a great wife and you only had a to pay attention and everything was great. That is a tribute to your wife and I am glad you realised you mistake. However, all relationships are different and to suggest (as it comes over) that this is the great key for all realtionships takes away a great deal of credit from your wife.

Sorry to bite your head off. What you say has a great deal of wisdom in it and that is why it is the conventional wisdom. At our first MC session my wife was asked "Have you tried listening to what he is actually saying?", in other words it was suggested my wife was not listening. My wife is American and brought up to think that the listening problem is always with the man and it is just good fortune this attitude is not the same in Scandinavia. Had we been in the USA all the issues would have been thrown and me without being resolved.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Duguesclin said:


> Each time I have made significant progress in my relationship with my wife or at work, I had listened to my wife.
> 
> This may sound strange on a board where I hear a lot of issues between couples. But it is true.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing this.

I have read many of your wife's threads here and as you know , I have lots of admiration and respect for your marriage.

That is because it is entirely different and I love the complete transparency between both of you.

I agree with your point of view in your OP , but I think that it might depend on the relationship dynamic and the people involved.

Basically I can say the same thing about our marriage, I ALWAYS listen to MY wife. Whenever I did't in the past , it always led to trouble. I think sometimes we tend to see things through a filter of who's right and who's wrong in a relationship when really right and wrong is relative to so many other things in a relationship. Not saying that issues of right and wrong might not arise, but it should not be the first to arise, or the default setting, whenever there is a difference of opinion or a conflict to be resolved.

I always listen to my wife. Not because she is always right , but her input is vital and necessary to any action , or decision that takes place in our marriage.
I think good boundaries come when we can both whole enthusiastically agree.

In any event, it the only fair thing for me to do because she affords me the same amount of respect.

She always ,listens to me.
Lol,
Well , most times anyway..

But like I said earlier, I think it might differ from couple to couple , depending on how the power is shared in the relationship.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Certainly, I would agree that who is right and wrong does not matter. Who is being reasonable does not matter. Making it work in any way is a good way.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Mr The Other said:


> Certainly, I would agree that who is right and wrong does not matter. Who is being reasonable does not matter. Making it work in any way is a good way.


I know of many relationships where he listened like a champ - only to literally get steamrolled out of the relationship.

What about those times when she - literally - proves she's full of crap?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

LMAO. 

M2 doesn't listen well. I have learned to prompt her.

First I tie the conversation to something she cares about. Then I tell her if it's important, I hope I have her full attention. 

At this point: unless I get complete focus, including unbroken eye contact - I just laugh and say - hey let's talk later when you have brain space for this. 

That works with her. Almost always she will acknowledge having some mental distraction causing her to not focus. Or she will apologize and say - you now have my full attention. 

But guys, let's be real. Undivided attention is a precious thing. When I get THAT, I speak for less than one minute. When I'm done I ask her if we are completely in synch or not. 

One thing M2 knows is that to say: we are completely in synch, and then forget such a thing - produces a very awkward Q&A about what it means when she says 'this is important to me'. If you cannot pay attention for 60 seconds, it likely isn't that important eh? 


[/B]


Mr The Other said:


> Every single problem in a relationship is blamed on men not ****ing listening. It might be the case that you had a great wife and you only had a to pay attention and everything was great. That is a tribute to your wife and I am glad you realised you mistake. However, all relationships are different and to suggest (as it comes over) that this is the great key for all realtionships takes away a great deal of credit from your wife.
> 
> Sorry to bite your head off. What you say has a great deal of wisdom in it and that is why it is the conventional wisdom. At our first MC session my wife was asked "Have you tried listening to what he is actually saying?", in other words it was suggested my wife was not listening. My wife is American and brought up to think that the listening problem is always with the man and it is just good fortune this attitude is not the same in Scandinavia. Had we been in the USA all the issues would have been thrown and me without being resolved.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

OP, this has nothing to do with "men" and everything to do with PEOPLE.

It goes for both sexes. There are as many women out there that refuse to focus on man communicating to them as there is men.

But what you said is correct, can't really disagree.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

DoF said:


> OP, this has nothing to do with "men" and everything to do with PEOPLE.
> 
> It goes for both sexes. There are as many women out there that refuse to focus on man communicating to them as there is men.
> 
> But what you said is correct, can't really disagree.


Yes, yes, but the inescapable tug of the "I'm more important than you" game really gets in the way also.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

I agree with Mem, you need both. If I had had better boundaries I would not have needed to come to TAM. But fortunately I listened to my spouse and pulled myself out of it (see the link in my sig). Now I have both better boundaries and better listening skills.

I too like you missed my wife's post partum depression. She spoke of it in a way that I glossed over it and never understood. That and other things led to the worst times for our marriage. Listening, acting, transparency and boundaries have taken our marriage to the highest place it's been since we got married.

Kudos to you for listening to your spouse!


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

It's not just listening. You and your spouse need to respect you are two individuals. Values, importance, and ‘how’ are not identical. Do not dismiss your spouse’s thoughts as ‘wrong’. Might be wrong for you, but not them. Same goes with your ideas about them and how they conduct themselves.

My wife doesn’t take primary ownership of things she see’s as “us”. “We need too …” is a dreaded conversation opener. Why? Because it’s really “I want your help” without the ownership that your spouse may not value or feel the same way and you’ve simply decided that they should.

Worse is you might hold them to it as though ‘they should’ feel just as strongly about this as you do. And you’ve probably a list of actions that would support this if they were you and felt this way.

But they aren’t you. Never will be. Most just go along with it because of how they feel about you, not about whatever you’ve asked for help on. You need to own your own stuff without dumping it on your spouse that they must completely adopt your entire value system and how you do it.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Conrad said:


> Yes, yes, but the inescapable tug of the "I'm more important than you" game really gets in the way also.


No doubt


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

I don't get pregnant. I don't breastfeed. My life is pretty simple. At the minimum, I should help. I think my wife's life is very complicated, between her hormone level shifting every day and taking care of kids (having kids in the first place). She is taking tremendous risk. At a minimum, I should be listening to her.

I am appalled by the single motherhood epidemic. And the root cause is man, not the woman. Just a bunch of selfish guys not owning up to their responsibilities.

I remember, many years ago, talking to one of my co-workers who was wondering if he should marry his pregnant girlfriend, because he was not sure that the marriage would last. And I told him, by having her pregnant, you have responsibilities to her and that child. So, to me, he committed to the marriage when he got her pregnant.

I think women have a lot on their plate, and as men, we should help them. They don't function the same way we do. And at a minimum, we should listen to them.

Obviously, a woman should listen to her husband, too. But the lead comes from us.

I don't want to give the impression that a man should be just a giver. I get a lot from my wife, whether it is getting in touch with my feelings or staying healthy. My wife contributes tremendously to my happiness. I simply don't believe that everything is 50/50.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

The man you cite you felt no obligation to his child is clearly an arse. Whether that applies to all cases where this is a single mother I am in no way qualified to say.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Duguesclin said*: I don't get pregnant. I don't breastfeed. My life is pretty simple. At the minimum, I should help. I think my wife's life is very complicated, between her hormone level shifting every day and taking care of kids (having kids in the first place). She is taking tremendous risk. At a minimum, I should be listening to her.
> 
> I am appalled by the single motherhood epidemic. And the root cause is man, not the woman. Just a bunch of selfish guys not owning up to their responsibilities.
> 
> ...


I love this post..







...because it is so expressive of a husband going above & beyond ...because he *recognizes* all that his wife brings to their lives...he puts himself in her shoes...and does what he can to help create a loving home...

With a strong conviction that men should take responsibility for his choices -we need more of that in today's society for sure...whether male or female... instead of the "it was his fault"... "No, it was her fault"....everyone pointing fingers at someone else.

My husband could have written this..this mirrors his attitude... even if he didn't have to step up with our babies..the most I asked of him is to keep the house in order when I was in the hospital, I had everything pre-planned / Easy meals cook...to not need any help when I got home.. 

Never had Post P Depression....though I knew a Mom who did, the change in her demeanor was severe...I never seen anything like it...she was in my Mops groups & spoke about it after she came out of it... I remember she couldn't smile at all & you almost take it personally...

Not speaking of your marriage as you say your wife gives tremendously... 

The danger with being so helpful ...I feel only enters when the other starts taking advantage..maybe they no longer need as much help ...and a little laziness creeps in.... too often a "Giver" marries a "Taker" ..... and the balance is off or slowly gets worse as time goes on.. then it gets really sticky....doormatish...fights... resentment.. 

But if *both* feel as your post..living like this....helping out where the other is needing more care & attention....it's not about keeping score..but doing the best they can... and this will ebb & flow between husband & wife .....now that's going to be a harmonious marriage! 



> *Caribbean Man said*: I have read many of your wife's threads here and as you know , I have lots of admiration and respect for your marriage.


 I don't know who the wife is? ...It's great seeing couples post here!


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> But like I said earlier, I think it might differ from couple to couple , depending on how the power is shared in the relationship.


:iagree::iagree:

In our relationship, I had to FIRST set boundaries. H now really, really listens to me. 

OP, if my H had done as you suggested from the beginning of our marriage, I would not have had to create and enforce so many boundaries because he would have understood that they were implicit.


Very good thread. I've copy pasted your post and sent it to him!


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

There's a researcher at the University of Washington (John Gottman) who has been studying couples for over 30 years and can predict within 15 minutes of watching a couple discuss a point of conflict whether they will divorce or not. Ya'll may be familiar with him. He says that one of the biggest indicators of whether a marriage will be successful or not is how willing the husband is to be influenced by his wife. 

I think the thread is mixing up "listening to" with "being influenced by" - they are kind of two different things but I think the OP means "being willing to be influenced by" when he says that he listens to his wife. 

You can also listen with the purpose of understanding and respect the other persons point of view but decide not to follow their advice. Or you can listen with the purpose of finding holes in their logic and proving them wrong. All kinds of ways to "listen."


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

firebelly1 said:


> *There's a researcher at the University of Washington (John Gottman) who has been studying couples for over 30 years and can predict within 15 minutes of watching a couple discuss a point of conflict whether they will divorce or not. Ya'll may be familiar with him. He says that one of the biggest indicators of whether a marriage will be successful or not is how willing the husband is to be influenced by his wife.
> *


I looked this up, found a few articles... this one explains the 4 conflict styles...Dealing with Conflict in Marriage: Four Types of Couples..

Hmmm a good thread idea ! 



> *1. *Volatile Couples
> 
> For volatile couples, conflicts erupt easily, and are fought on grand scale, but of course, making up is even greater! These couples have passionate disputes, and frequent and passionate arguments.
> 
> ...


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## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

That would indeed be an excellent idea for a new thread SA... my ex/mother of my children and I were such conflict avoiders it makes me sick to my stomach now.

New gf is more of the volatile type, at best... while the new me is more validating... go figure.

I had a good laugh while reading the findings of the good professor though... good relationship predictor = let yourself be influenced by the other partner... seems so evident but goes right against all the alfa/nice guy crap on this site, doesn't it.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

EasyPartner said:


> That would indeed be an excellent idea for a new thread SA... my ex/mother of my children and I were such conflict avoiders it makes me sick to my stomach now.
> 
> New gf is more of the volatile type, at best... while the new me is more validating... go figure.
> 
> I had a good laugh while reading the findings of the good professor though... good relationship predictor = let yourself be influenced by the other partner... seems so evident but goes right against all the alfa/nice guy crap on this site, doesn't it.


But if your wife says she just wants you to just TAKE her and you do that - you are still letting yourself be influenced by her. 

I want a man to be alpha in our sex life and my equal in all other things.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

firebelly1 said:


> There's a researcher at the University of Washington (John Gottman) who has been studying couples for over 30 years and can predict within 15 minutes of watching a couple discuss a point of conflict whether they will divorce or not. Ya'll may be familiar with him. He says that one of the biggest indicators of whether a marriage will be successful or not is how willing the husband is to be influenced by his wife.
> 
> I think the thread is mixing up "listening to" with "being influenced by" - they are kind of two different things but I think the OP means "being willing to be influenced by" when he says that he listens to his wife.
> 
> You can also listen with the purpose of understanding and respect the other persons point of view but decide not to follow their advice. Or you can listen with the purpose of finding holes in their logic and proving them wrong. All kinds of ways to "listen."


This is exactly what I mean. To me listening is to allow to be changed. I have absolutely let my wife influence me like she has let me influence her.

I know that allowing your wife to influence you is very scary for many men. I truly believe it is the key to a happy marriage.

I am familiar with John Gottman. I heard of him through a book from Malcolm Gladwell. It is great stuff!

Thank you all for the great inputs.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

EasyPartner said:


> That would indeed be an excellent idea for a new thread SA... my ex/mother of my children and I were such conflict avoiders it makes me sick to my stomach now.
> 
> New gf is more of the volatile type, at best... while the new me is more validating... go figure.
> 
> I had a good laugh while reading the findings of the good professor though... good relationship predictor = let yourself be influenced by the other partner... seems so evident but goes right against all the alfa/nice guy crap on this site, doesn't it.


It is right here ~ http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ead-4-types-5-1-ratio-marriage-conflicts.html

I really think our *environment* (how we were raised / Example of our parents) ...our *experiences* (were we hurt for speaking up)...our inborn *temperament* (Phlegmatics are naturally on the passive side in comparison to the assertive "take charge" Choleric for example)... then factor in some healthy * self awareness* too (or lack there of) to understand ourselves & our partners...knowing the best way to deal with the more difficult situations...

I feel all of those can play a role in where we are today and how we deal... with conflict.

My husband has surely influenced me in some wonderful ways but I feel I have done the same. Our ways may have been different but good on both ends....He has a way of bringing out the best in me..even getting me to laugh at my more unruly moments.... and I know he feels the same in reverse...


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Sometime the problem is the man not listening. Sometimes neither is really listening. Sometimes both are genuinely listening, but real listening is hard adn even then there is more to come.

Listening has to go along with facing up to reality. 

If you partner is fantastic, facing up to reality and cares deeply for you and you still have problems, then listening probably is the solution. 

I think I might go onto a job seekers board and write "Have you tried networking?". It would be similar.

Listening is an essential first step. For some it is all the is required, for some the first step. Even if listening, it takes a huge amount of pateince before you get to the truth.


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## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

firebelly1 said:


> But if your wife says she just wants you to just TAKE her and you do that - you are still letting yourself be influenced by her.
> 
> I want a man to be alpha in our sex life and my equal in all other things.


That's pretty much what gf says :smthumbup: happy to oblige!

On the non sex related things... I thought I was a bit of a Nice Guy but it turns out I'm not... often doing my own thing without consulting her. Didn't realise that with ex wife and look what happened... sooo I'll have to agree with you and OP that listening -and adjusting own ways but without losing my identity or core beliefs- is quintessential to maintain a good relationship.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Listening?
> 
> What if she doesn't mean what she says?
> 
> Better to watch what she actually does.




On second thoughts , so true C.
Mine said one thing but was thinking and mentally doing the exact opposite .

l must admit , l should have seen !


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## cholesky (Mar 27, 2014)

She says she wants to talk. Ok, she talks, I listen. She talks about how she feels.

My turn to talk. I start talking about how I feel and her eyes glass over.

OK. So you talk, I listen and grunt and stfu. Seems to be working so far. I don't get it.

This after 17 years of marriage. At least I got a couple wonderful kids out of the deal.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Right now I'm reading the No More Mr Niceguy book, so this thread has me wondering about some things.

Obviously the OP's advice is smart for both men and women. Since this is the Men's Clubhouse though, I wanna ask if folks feel like more emphasis is placed on men to bend and conform than women?

Not trying to start a feud.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

I think people often think that what worked for them is a panacea for everyone. If they were not being macho enough, they think everyone should man up. Of they were not listening, they think that will cure everyones problems. If the woman was just horrible, they think that applies to every man.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

Forest said:


> Right now I'm reading the No More Mr Niceguy book, so this thread has me wondering about some things.
> 
> Obviously the OP's advice is smart for both men and women. Since this is the Men's Clubhouse though, I wanna ask if folks feel like more emphasis is placed on men to bend and conform than women?
> 
> Not trying to start a feud.


As Mr The Other implies, we come from it with our own perspective. I don't relate very well to the Nice Guy discussions on this board because I've only ever been with alpha (d!ck) guys. So I read Dr. Gottman's stuff about influence and I'm like YES. Thank God someone is saying it. Because I've always felt like my partners were not willing to be influenced by me. 

On the other hand...he's a thorough researcher. If he says one of the major reasons marriages fail is a man's unwillingness to be influenced by his wife (not the other way around) then I think this must be a dominant pattern in marriages.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Forest said:


> Right now I'm reading the No More Mr Niceguy book, so this thread has me wondering about some things.
> 
> Obviously the OP's advice is smart for both men and women. Since this is the Men's Clubhouse though, I wanna ask if folks feel like more emphasis is placed on men to bend and conform than women?
> 
> Not trying to start a feud.


Both men and women have to bend and compromise. However, men need to lead and this includes leading in the listening part. 

I do not think a marriage is either the woman following the man or the man following the woman but rather a 3rd way on a higher ground. A man has great responsibility to lead this way and the best he can do is to be influenced by his wife.

It is like discovering a different land. You have to adapt to the circumstances. You have an overall direction of where you want to go, but the path may lead you in some very interesting places. If you are set to go straight west but you have to go over a huge mountain, it may be wiser to find an alternate way around through some calmer valleys. Observing the terrain is like listening in a relationship.

I know it may sound scary for most men because, frankly, it is not common wisdom. Or at least, it is not how men advise each other. You have to be tough!

To me tough has other meanings and it certainly does not mean being stubborn and having strict rules or "limits".

I know this is controversial and most men may not agree with the listening approach. However there is a fair body of evidence that suggests it may be effective.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Duguesclin said:


> Both men and women have to bend and compromise. *However, men need to lead and this includes leading in the listening part. *
> 
> I do not think a marriage is either the woman following the man or the man following the woman but rather a 3rd way on a higher ground. A man has great responsibility to lead this way and the best he can do is to be influenced by his wife.
> 
> ...


Even if this was the case this is not what American women are taught by our daily society especially from tv and social media.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Even if this was the case this is not what American women are taught by our daily society especially from tv and social media.


tv and social media didn't teach me anything.Men taught me themselves that they weren't to be trusted with full leadership. Men taught me that it is better to find someone who can be my equal rather than relying on someone to lead me. 

Experience has taught me that I am happiest when my man stands next to me...not in front of me or behind me.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> tv and social media didn't teach me anything.Men taught me themselves that they weren't to be trusted with full leadership. Men taught me that it is better to find someone who can be my equal rather than relying on someone to lead me.
> 
> Experience has taught me that I am happiest when my man stands next to me...not in front of me or behind me.


In this, I think many women are just like you.

There are some women however that do not seem to be capable of, nor have any desire to be accountable for their actions, that need someone else to take responsibility for them, to allow them to behave in any way they desire with no consequences...


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Then I applaud you for being able to think for yourself scarlet. Many here both men and women can not.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Then I applaud you for being able to think for yourself scarlet. Many here both men and women can not.


When they get screwed over enough they'll learn it too. but some get lucky and get by without getting burned ever.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

ScarletBegonias said:


> When they get screwed over enough they'll learn it too. but some get lucky and get by without getting burned ever.


Couldn't agree more. My views on every aspect of relationship and marriage is very different than say before I married. For better or worse, which is debatable, we are become products of our past. I am hopeful that my daughters have a better path but I know the odds are stacked against them.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I have found that I have to sort my wife's communications into 3 buckets:

#1 (>90%) FYI/No action - don't ignore but don't do anything about either. OK, the lettuce has gone bad. OK, XYZ mom is on divorce #3. Ok, ok, ok. Whatever.

#2 (>=9%) Completely ignore. OK, you're PMSy and hate the world. OK, you think I suck at X Y and Z. OK, you hate the house. OK, whatever. In one ear and out the other. No response or just go somewhere else because it will all blow over.

#3 (<=1%) Serious situation report. Must strategize and formulate a plan for action immediately. Comment about my weight? Comment about wanting to go out with the girlfriends more? Comment about wanting to spice things up in the sack? Etc. Do not ignore.


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## Horsa (Jun 27, 2012)

I agreed about really listening to my DW. For years, I tried to make her understand how I felt unloved, but never really paid attention to what she was trying to tell me. Well, our mariage did turned into chaos. As for now, I tried my best to listen to what she said, what she meaned, and put myself in her shoes. And she did influence me, and I let her. Just as I knew I influenced her a lot too.

What really changed me was reading a blog about trying to love the most important people in our life like there is no tomorrow. What do we want our spouse or children to think of us if death happens to us today? And suddenly my ego didn't mean anything to me anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Horsa said:


> I agreed about really listening to my DW. For years, I tried to make her understand how I felt unloved, but never really paid attention to what she was trying to tell me. Well, our mariage did turned into chaos. As for now, I tried my best to listen to what she said, what she meaned, and put myself in her shoes. And she did influence me, and I let her. Just as I knew I influenced her a lot too.
> 
> What really changed me was reading a blog about trying to love the most important people in our life like there is no tomorrow. What do we want our spouse or children to think of us if death happens to us today? *And suddenly my ego didn't mean anything to me anymore.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, Horsa, that is beautiful. 

My husband is Duguesclin, the man who started the thread. I think every man has an ego, like every woman does. But Dug's is not so big. He really does think of me, and our kids. He really is devoted to us.

The key is listening. It is trying to understand what we may not saying, but what he feels from us, what he observes in us, what he knows to be true about us.

It is so important not to try to control a woman or children, but to seek to understand them and serve them. Leading them is a way of serving them.

If you have loved them well, they want to please you. They want to make you as happy as you have made them.

Thank you for posting. I am going to ask Dug to look at this when he is done with his German lesson.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Horsa said:


> I agreed about really listening to my DW. For years, I tried to make her understand how I felt unloved, but never really paid attention to what she was trying to tell me. Well, our mariage did turned into chaos. As for now, I tried my best to listen to what she said, what she meaned, and put myself in her shoes. And she did influence me, and I let her. Just as I knew I influenced her a lot too.
> 
> What really changed me was reading a blog about trying to love the most important people in our life like there is no tomorrow. What do we want our spouse or children to think of us if death happens to us today? And suddenly my ego didn't mean anything to me anymore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with you Horsa. I know that many people on this forum do not agree with this approach. But I must say it works. It does not make you weaker, it makes you stronger. However, it is often hard to let the ego go.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Duguesclin said:


> I agree with you Horsa. I know that many people on this forum do not agree with this approach. But I must say it works *FOR ME*. It does not make you weaker, it makes you stronger. However, it is often hard to let the ego go.


Fixed it for ya...


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## Horsa (Jun 27, 2012)

Maybe men are afraid they'll look weaker to their peers, but what really happen is the relationship/marriage will grow stronger, and so are we.

Sure there's no one solution that could fix all problems, just as every problem in a relationship was never solely one sided.

I am happy that it works for you as it works for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Ironically, it has been brought up that listening is pretty much agreed to be a good thing. If it is the only major thing lacking, you are very lucky and it will cure everything. It is not a glorious panacea.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

Some men are not able to lead, or if they did, it would be to the detriment of their partner/wife.

I agree with the listening part, but not the leading part.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

I realise I am being antagonistic on this thread, but I do have a serious point. I recall Anna Karenina, "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way". In other words, there are a large number of things that have to be right for a relationship to succeed and loudly proclaiming a simple method of success suggests that you identified the one thing in your relationship, but it will apply to very few others.

My wife has low self esteem. As a result, she spends her time feeling sorry for herself and playing on the internet to distract her from life. She does not believe I would do anything for her so remains stubbornly ungrateful. She thinks she is being rational, so there is very little I can do to make a difference.

If I were to start a thread claiming that women should work on their self-esteem, it would be ridiculous. That applies to my relationship, but not that many others. Having a thread like this comes across (to me at least) as giving me an ignorant lecture rather than a humble admitition of fault. If it were intended as helpful, you would detail how you realised you were not listening and how to work on it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr., I have actually thought about starting a thread on self esteem, asking women how they develop it, in Ladies. My therapist says low self esteem is a common problem in women. I struggle with that as much as any woman, and I think it would be helpful to get tips.

I think it is good you are talking about why this thread may be triggering you. Duguesclin is in a meeting right now (over in Denmark, I believe, or Germany), but I will ask him to look at your post as soon as he is done. Maybe he could talk about how to listen better.

His listening is pretty key to our harmonious marriage. He has more power than I do in this relationship, and if he did not listen, and use his strength to benefit us, I think I would feel pretty unhappy. Actually, that is pretty much the reason for the times I have felt unhappy.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Omego said:


> Some men are not able to lead, or if they did, it would be to the detriment of their partner/wife.
> 
> I agree with the listening part, but not the leading part.


You know, Omego, I think you are right. I think that some men are true submissives, and some marriages are truly equal partnerships. Not all men are dominant.

I think this is really an important point. We will be happiest when we accept who we are, and act accordingly. Thank you.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

jld said:


> You know, Omego, I think you are right. I think that some men are true submissives, and some marriages are truly equal partnerships. Not all men are dominant.
> 
> I think this is really an important point. We will be happiest when we accept who we are, and act accordingly. Thank you.


Hmm. I wasn't really thinking in those terms, but ok. I meant that men without moral fiber, maturity, self-control, empathy, and who knows what else, may be dominant characters or have dominant personalities, but not necessarily command the respect necessary to get people to follow them wholeheartedly.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Mr The Other said:


> If I were to start a thread claiming that women should work on their self-esteem, it would be ridiculous. That applies to my relationship, but not that many others. Having a thread like this comes across (to me at least) as giving me an ignorant lecture rather than a humble admitition of fault. If it were intended as helpful, you would detail how you realised you were not listening and how to work on it.


Listening is only a tool. Alone it will not fix anything. Used properly, it is very helpful.

You cannot practice active listening all the time, otherwise life would be very stressful. However I think the more you practice it the more you do it without thinking.

So you go on your day, your wife does the same. You do things that may annoy her but you do not realize it. She does things that annoy you but you feel it is not worth mentioning it and one day you have a big blow up. The tones goes up, you may have some name calling, some doors may get slammed.

If you don't do anything, it can get pretty ugly. 

Someone needs to step back, deescalate the situation and understand what it is the issue. This is where you need to go back to basic and practice listening, real listening. Not focusing on the issue at hand but trying to understand the underlying struggles.

You may argue that she should be as capable as you are to listen. True! But what do you want, to be right or to fix the problem. Me, I want to fix the problem, because, at the end, when you analyze all the challenges, you realize that the blame goes on both. We all have issues. 

I just want to be part of the solution and not part of the problem!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Communication without commitment is simply emotional masturbation. 

Just because I clearly echo back what you say, and tell you I will address whatever it is, doesn't mean I will actually do anything differently. 

Communication is half the solution. But only half. 




Mr The Other said:


> Ironically, it has been brought up that listening is pretty much agreed to be a good thing. If it is the only major thing lacking, you are very lucky and it will cure everything. It is not a glorious panacea.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Duguesclin said:


> I remember, many years ago, talking to one of my co-workers who was wondering if he should marry his pregnant girlfriend, because he was not sure that the marriage would last. And I told him, by having her pregnant, you have responsibilities to her and that child. So, to me, he committed to the marriage when he got her pregnant.


This is a recipe for disaster.

Marrying for a child is the WORST reason anyone should get married.

The chances of a healthy relationship are so slim it's terrifying.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Mr The Other said:


> Every single problem in a relationship is blamed on men not ****ing listening. It might be the case that you had a great wife and you only had a to pay attention and everything was great. That is a tribute to your wife and I am glad you realised you mistake. However, all relationships are different and to suggest (as it comes over) that this is the great key for all realtionships takes away a great deal of credit from your wife.
> 
> Sorry to bite your head off. What you say has a great deal of wisdom in it and that is why it is the conventional wisdom. At our first MC session my wife was asked "Have you tried listening to what he is actually saying?", in other words it was suggested my wife was not listening. My wife is American and brought up to think that the listening problem is always with the man and it is just good fortune this attitude is not the same in Scandinavia. Had we been in the USA all the issues would have been thrown and me without being resolved.


Wow, that's what I've been saying all along. MC is a bad idea, especially in America. It's all about men don't doing...fill in the blank. There is never any discussion about what the woman is doing wrong. I guess American women are always perfect.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

tacoma said:


> This is a recipe for disaster.
> 
> Marrying for a child is the WORST reason anyone should get married.
> 
> The chances of a healthy relationship are so slim it's terrifying.


I agree with you but he should have thought of that before getting her pregnant. And this is where I see that men and women are not equal. The guys moves on and the girl is stuck caring for the child. This 50/50 responsibility just does not work because life has never and will never be 50/50!

When I talked to this colleague he was trying to make the right decision for his future. He felt that you should get married for the right reasons. To me it was just BS, whether he liked it or not he made that decision when he had unprotected sex with her.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Duguesclin said:


> I agree with you but he should have thought of that before getting her pregnant.


Dear god it's following me around!!
:rofl:

She should also have thought of that before getting pregnant.

It's not his responsibility to marry her because she got pregnant.
His responsibilities in our society are the financial support of the child and I would hope he'd want to be a father to the child but that's where it ends.



> And this is where I see that men and women are not equal.


This is why we will have to agree to disagree.
They are equal, they are just not "the same".



> When I talked to this colleague he was trying to make the right decision for his future. He felt that you should get married for the right reasons. To me it was just BS, whether he liked it or not he made that decision when he had unprotected sex with her.


And now what happens if/when he decides his life sucks and divorces her or has an affair or stays due to his "responsibility" and the resentment builds to abusive proportions over the years?

What happens when/if she has the same or similar problems?

You've not only destroyed a relationship but traumatized at least one child, god forbid they have more "Because now we're married and everythings cool".

The statement..



> He felt that you should get married for the right reasons. To me it was just BS,


...is so outside of my understanding I can't even comprehend it.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

I can see both sides to this argument but if I had a daughter in that situation, I would want the man to want to marry her. 

I would assume that if a woman trusts and loves a man enough to get pregnant by him, she'd expect him to be there for her if they found themselves in this situation and would not want him to leave and just pay child support.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

jld said:


> Mr., I have actually thought about starting a thread on self esteem, asking women how they develop it, in Ladies. My therapist says low self esteem is a common problem in women. I struggle with that as much as any woman, and I think it would be helpful to get tips..


I think you should do this. I'd follow it. What little I know is it seems to me that women have a ton more pressure to 'be this or that' than guys do. A lot more social strain and image issues. 

I also know at least my wife, doesn't find it like I do or my male friends (those things we pat ourselves on the back for). There are also a lot of differences and lesson we learned growing up that are gender specific that formulate those ideas and values of self which are totally different. Just really generically; Princesses versus Knights.

It'd be an interesting topic.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Communication without commitment is simply emotional masturbation.
> 
> Just because I clearly echo back what you say, and tell you I will address whatever it is, doesn't mean I will actually do anything differently.
> 
> Communication is half the solution. But only half.


Life is hard work sometimes. That is good. Thanks for, dare I say it, listening.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Racer said:


> I think you should do this. I'd follow it. What little I know is it seems to me that women have a ton more pressure to 'be this or that' than guys do. A lot more social strain and image issues.
> 
> I also know at least my wife, doesn't find it like I do or my male friends (those things we pat ourselves on the back for). There are also a lot of differences and lesson we learned growing up that are gender specific that formulate those ideas and values of self which are totally different. Just really generically; Princesses versus Knights.
> 
> It'd be an interesting topic.


Having spent a couple of years in the USA, there is a huge amount of pressure on guys. As a European, I was completely excused. I could do what I liked, whereas Americans has to prove their manliness.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> Having spent a couple of years in the USA, there is a huge amount of pressure on guys. As a European, I was completely excused. I could do what I liked, whereas Americans has to prove their manliness.


They had to prove it, or _felt_ they had to prove it?


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

jld said:


> They had to prove it, or _felt_ they had to prove it?


The answer is felt, but I think that minimises the issue and belittles the people who feel it. It is the culture people live in and the reason cultures survive is that people conform to them.

It was easy for me to step outside it, as I was older and could see it from the outside. I enjoyed the USA in part because it liked me as I was, if it matters to me it will matter to lads growing up there.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

jld said:


> Mr., I have actually thought about starting a thread on self esteem, asking women how they develop it, in Ladies. My therapist says low self esteem is a common problem in women. I struggle with that as much as any woman, and I think it would be helpful to get tips.
> 
> I think it is good you are talking about why this thread may be triggering you. Duguesclin is in a meeting right now (over in Denmark, I believe, or Germany), but I will ask him to look at your post as soon as he is done. Maybe he could talk about how to listen better.
> 
> His listening is pretty key to our harmonious marriage. He has more power than I do in this relationship, and if he did not listen, and use his strength to benefit us, I think I would feel pretty unhappy. Actually, that is pretty much the reason for the times I have felt unhappy.


I entirely agree that listening is extremely important. My caveats to that are that it is one of many things that is important, commitment to doing what you say is also very important or the words become shallow and trust disappears.

There are also extremely few people who are good at listening. Most of us have thoughts ruminating in our minds while the other person speaks. To listen and entirely forget yourself while doing so is rare. The danger is that people assume that they are good listeners - either through refusal to self criticise or an assumption it is a male problem.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You feel like your wife does not listen to you, and you resent the assumption that it is mostly men who do not listen. So this thread is kind of a trigger for you.

I agree with you that some women do not listen, either. This thread was targeted at men, but we can all stand to improve our listening skills.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> The answer is felt, but I think that minimises the issue and belittles the people who feel it. It is the culture people live in and the reason cultures survive is that people conform to them.
> 
> It was easy for me to step outside it, as I was older and could see it from the outside. I enjoyed the USA in part because it liked me as I was, if it matters to me it will matter to lads growing up there.


It could be that European men are more secure. If so, I think it would be because there is more economic equality in their countries, and therefore less individual anxiety for meeting the basic needs of life.

There is a reason we have such a polarized political system in America, and why so many white men vote for one party. I think economic inequality is a big part of it.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

jld said:


> You feel like your wife does not listen to you, and you resent the assumption that it is mostly men who do not listen. So this thread is kind of a trigger for you.
> 
> I agree with you that some women do not listen, either. This thread was targeted at men, but we can all stand to improve our listening skills.


I think my wife does listen. I do not think she takes it as seriously as she should. Communication has been great, we agree what we expect from ourselves and each other. It is the _it being true bit_ that is causing the difficulty, and increasingly my lack of trust is an issue.

We have always talked well, but if it is not true, not taken seriously or not believed, then it is meaningless.

Edit to add: Also, I am sceptical of any seeming panacea. If there is a simple solution to a relationship, whether it be having a more manly manner, listening more etc, it is a good sign for that relationship. However, there is not panacea for relationship problems generally.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> I think my wife does listen. I do not think she takes it as seriously as she should. Communication has been great, we agree what we expect from ourselves and each other. It is the _it being true bit_ that is causing the difficulty, and increasingly my lack of trust is an issue.
> 
> We have always talked well, but if it is not true, not taken seriously or not believed, then it is meaningless.
> 
> Edit to add: Also, I am sceptical of any seeming panacea. If there is a simple solution to a relationship, whether it be having a more manly manner, listening more etc, it is a good sign for that relationship. However, there is not panacea for relationship problems generally.


You feel like she does not follow through on what she commits to after talking? Well, that is a problem for all of us, I think. We do need structure around those commitments.

For us, the listening is important because no commitment can be discussed if there is no listening.

I have to say, too, that dh has become much more organized in the last 7 years or so. That combined with follow thru has been very helpful.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I find the more I decide what to listen to and what not to listen to the better my marriage gets. I don't listen to more, I probably listen to less... but I'm learning the right stuff to listen to.

And I find she listens far more when I act more decisively.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

marduk said:


> I find the more I decide what to listen to and what not to listen to the better my marriage gets. I don't listen to more, I probably listen to less... but I'm learning the right stuff to listen to.
> 
> And I find she listens far more when I act more decisively.


The main thing is to answer her needs. If you have figured out what is important to her, then that is all it takes. But I think you had to listen first to all her conversation before figuring out what was really important. 

I also agree with you that acting decisively helps a lot but you need to make sure it is on the right things and it serves both of you.

That is wonderful that you have found that balance.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Duguesclin said:


> The main thing is to answer her needs. If you have figured out what is important to her, then that is all it takes. But I think you had to listen first to all her conversation before figuring out what was really important.
> 
> I also agree with you that acting decisively helps a lot but you need to make sure it is on the right things and it serves both of you.
> 
> That is wonderful that you have found that balance.


Oh, it's still a struggle. And I'll be honest: I just don't have the attention span or the energy or the time to listen to everything she spouts off about. I have zero interest in gossip, zero interest in what's going on in her friends lives, zero interest in whatever BS is on the OWN and zero interest in the cult of celebrity that many people seem so fascinated by.

If I listened and responded to everything that Oprah or her friends say is good or whatever whimsy she decided would maker her happy that day I'd be running around like a chicken with my head cut off being mr. nice guy and just turning her off.

But I do try to listen to relationship stuff or stuff that I need to get done or stuff that's making her unhappy.

But "all my friends husbands do X..." or "I saw on Oprah that all women should go party with their friends more" or "I really like the new Mercedes SUV" or "can you believe what the neighbour's wife did?"

Yawn. "Pass me another beer please babe."


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

jld said:


> You feel like she does not follow through on what she commits to after talking? Well, that is a problem for all of us, I think. We do need structure around those commitments.
> 
> For us, the listening is important because no commitment can be discussed if there is no listening.
> 
> I have to say, too, that dh has become much more organized in the last 7 years or so. That combined with follow thru has been very helpful.


It is not always a question of organisation. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and what I say I something is important, it actually is. Listening and just reinterpreting the meaning is a great danger. Or, worse, deciding you know the person better than they know themselves, so you know what they really mean.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> It is not always a question of organisation. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and what I say I something is important, it actually is. Listening and just reinterpreting the meaning is a great danger. Or, worse, deciding you know the person better than they know themselves, so you know what they really mean.


Does she repeat back to you what you have said, so you are sure she understands you? And I realize she may only do that if you have modeled it for her.

It sounds like you do not feel respected, MTO. That is not something dh has felt. 

His listening, really listening, and like you said, acting, makes the difference for us.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

I think I can see two issues, which we are not alone in.

First is the "I feel that...." caveat. If someone feels like they have been working on something all day, even though thye have not actually start, they might say they have been done it all day. You can either take it to be a lie, or add the words "I feel that..." to what they say and it will be more honest.

The problem is when that person hears what you say, they will subconciously add the same words. That means the problem goes from that they do not contribute to it being that you feel they do not contribute. Therefore, they will offer emotional support, rather than actually helping.

The second slips my mind atm......


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Sure, we all see things from our own perspective.

I think I am pretty lazy. Dh thinks I am very self-disciplined. So when I tell him, why don't you yell at me about such and such, he is like, Why? You are already doing a good job.

Different definitions, different expectations.


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