# Division of household chores



## thesky1291 (Aug 11, 2014)

I just want to know what others look like. We have been married for 4 years. We have a 3 year old who goes to daycare. 
I work 8-6 everyday. I am also a full time student taking 4 courses (12 hours) online. My husband works either 9-7 or 2-11. We both have very demanding jobs but in different ways. My husband is on his feet all day managing a restaurant. He also worked about 50 hours a week. (5 days on, 2 days off) I am a salesperson in a bank (very high sales goals-stressful) and I work 40 hours. I am going to school so that I can move up in the bank. I will graduate in about a year. I just started back last semester. 
Anyway so most days I have to wake up around 5:30... Get dressed . Make breakfast. Wake up our toddler. Get him dressed. Drive him across town to daycare. Drive to work (about an hour with traffic). Work all day. Pick up our son ... Cook dinner. Laundry. Clean. On the weekends I deep clean everything. Then our son goes to bed around 8. From 8-10 or sometimes 12 I do school work. 
My husband goes to work and comes home and that's it. IT. Like... That's all. I am in desperate need of help. And the other day when I asked why he doesn't help he stated that he works more than me so he shouldn't have to. 

I get he works more than me... By about 10 hours... But that comment has rubbed me the wrong way. I am exhausted everyday, but I do it so that we can get out of debt... We need new cars. So our son can have a better life. I am finishing school to help US. I feel like with my school work, we probably have about the same work load (minus the home stuff). 

Am I wrong for feeling this way???


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

My opinion and how we did it is parenting is a side issue. That needs to be split and I don't care how much one person works vs the other.

The household chores you mentioned he works 50 hours and you 40...ok if that was it he might have a case, but you are in school and need to account for your class and study time. I bet once you add that in you both are about equal at 50 hours.... So he needs to get off his ass and help

Just my 2cents


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Your twelve hours/week of online classes is "working" towards a higher paying job. No different from interning or on the job training. So you work 52 hours and he only 50. Make a list of all the weekly household jobs that need to be done. Split the list fairly.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Firstly, don't ask your husband to "help" you, because that is you taking ownership of the household chores as though they are your sole responsibility, which they're not. You don't need him to "help" you, you need him to step up and do his fair share...

It doesn't sound as though it's actually true that your H works 10 more hours than you do. You're studying for a qualification that will boost your earning capacity as a joint breadwinner, and that surely takes you more than 10 hours per week? 

IMO, you should make a list of all the chores that need to be done, including shopping and taking your child to daycare etc, then sit down with your H and get him to agree a chore rota with you. The chores should be split 50 / 50.


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## thesky1291 (Aug 11, 2014)

Thanks for the replies. Now I don't feel like such a 4ss for being mad. I'm going to stop picking up after him and stop doing his laundry. Because I doubt he will change after making a list and all of that


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## Lostme (Nov 14, 2014)

He may get paid for longer work hours, but with your work, child, house chores, and school you are putting in more hours than him. You need to have a talk with him and let him know you need help.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

thesky1291 said:


> Thanks for the replies. Now I don't feel like such a 4ss for being mad. I'm going to stop picking up after him and stop doing his laundry. Because I doubt he will change after making a list and all of that


I agree with the others. With your school you work at least as much as he does.

When I was in college, we were told that every hour of class time would require 3 hours of study time outside the class every week. I don't know about your program. So maybe you could fill us in on that.

Your school is for the benefit of the family. He needs to 50% of the house work and child care.

A good place to start is what you suggest. stop picking up after him and stopping his laundry. AS much as possible also stop shopping for his groceries and cooking for him.

Get paper plates & plastic cups to cut down on kitchen work.

When he runs out of clothing.. he will gripe. Just tell him that you have no time to do it.

With picking up after him. One thing that works is to get a box or basket. If his stuff all over the place bothers you, just dump it in the box/basket. When he has to start digging out his favorite things from between his dirty socks and boxers, he might start caring about putting his stuff away.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

thesky1291 said:


> Thanks for the replies. Now I don't feel like such a 4ss for being mad. I'm going to stop picking up after him and stop doing his laundry. Because I doubt he will change after making a list and all of that


Make the list anyway, it's worth a try. And if it doesn't work, you have no real obligation to clean up HIS trash and wash HIS clothes. Let him take care of himself for a while, and he may start to see the value of working together.


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## batsociety (Jan 23, 2015)

Every time I see these threads I get so mad. Like honestly what kind male entitlement bullsh*t is this? As far as I'm concerned if you want to live in the house you fkn help out. It doesn't matter if your partner works less than you or doesn't even work at all! Let the dude live in filth until he gets it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

Male entitlement? You think this is only men who do it?

How about a wife who NEVER helped around the house. Lawn mowing, snow blowing, never had to do ONCE. I did my OWN laundry.

Selective reading apparently as TAM has many guys complaining about their stay at home wife and coming home to a dirty house and dinner not cooked, etc.

This isn't about gender. Based on what I've seen it's how they got brought up:wink2:



batsociety said:


> Every time I see these threads I get so mad. Like honestly what kind male entitlement bullsh*t is this? As far as I'm concerned if you want to live in the house you fkn help out. It doesn't matter if your partner works less than you or doesn't even work at all! Let the dude live in filth until he gets it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

I'd talk to him about it before you go this route. Not saying don't do it, but if he's stubborn you could create new problems.

Tell him "babe I need your help. Something has to give and finishing school and taking care of a household by myself is too much. I want you to do X, Y, and Z"

If he's like most of us men, he needs instructions and not passive aggressive actions or hints.



tophericks said:


> I'm going to stop picking up after him and stop doing his laundry.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

I'm not sure what your classes are like, but I'm taking one a semester for a masters (also work average of 50 hrs a week) and so far several classes have taken me about 25-30 hrs a week to do homework. That's not including the 3 hrs of class time that week either. I also don't have a little kid. 

So how much time do you really work each week? School is work. 

Do you two regularly have date night? 

Yes, he needs to do his share.


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## Sun Catcher (Dec 6, 2013)

tophericks said:


> I'm going to stop picking up after him and stop doing his laundry.


Do stop picking up after him, the basket idea for his clutter is a good one.

His laundry is another thing. If it is in the laundry basket just wash it, too much trouble and time to sort what is his and not. When laundry is dry you can put it on his side of the bed for folding. If he is home, just hand the basket to him.

Important to talk to him about all of this and make a list. If you just start off not doing everything you have done up till now you will be passive aggressive,that never got no one anywhere.

Good luck.


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## batsociety (Jan 23, 2015)

jdawg2015 said:


> Male entitlement? You think this is only men who do it?
> 
> How about a wife who NEVER helped around the house. Lawn mowing, snow blowing, never had to do ONCE. I did my OWN laundry.
> 
> ...


I knew this was going to get picked up. 

Yes  Male entitlement  

Obviously I do not mean every single man on earth and absolutely no women do this, but it is definitely a more common complaint from women regardless of the dynamics of the relationship. I could get into all this patriarchal history bs but it's early I'm tired (and I'm working all day today but I'm still going to cook and clean when I get home! Even though my husband isn't working at all because he's looking after our newborns! Because it is a family effort and shouldn't be left to one person because of some bull**** notion that they're doing "less" if they're not earning as much money!!!)

I agree it's largely to do with upbringing and I think it is becoming less common in younger couples (I don't know, I'm old now and don't hang around with a lot of nuclear straight families) because the traditional family model has changed, and attitudes towards gender has changed.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Sun Catcher said:


> His laundry is another thing. If it is in the laundry basket just wash it, too much trouble and time to sort what is his and not. When laundry is dry you can put it on his side of the bed for folding. If he is home, just hand the basket to him.
> .


I don't agree. She can get a separate hamper for HER laundry (perhaps keep it in a different room) and let him continue to put his clothes in the 'community' laundry basket.

The important thing is to do NOTHNG for him. Don't make phone calls that have to do with him. Don't do his laundry. Don't cook for him and if he makes a mess in the kitchen DO NOT CLEAN IT UP. 




> Important to talk to him about all of this and make a list. If you just start off not doing everything you have done up till now you will be passive aggressive,that never got no one anywhere


.

I agree with this somewhat. I WOULD talk to him first, but I would tell him that FROM THIS POINT FORWARD that you will no longer be catering to him regarding household chores. You will NOT be doing his laundry, cooking, cleaning, etc. In fact, you will not even be SPEAKING to him, unless it's an emergency and/or what he wants to talk about has to do with the children (if you have any). 

If he DOES wish to talk, the ONLY subject up for discussion is a mutually agreeable division of household chores. Everything else (including sex) is OFF THE TABLE. 

Then, stick to your guns!

ETA: Something else you can do is to tell him that from this point forward, you will ONLY do as much as HE does. That is...if HE washes ONE utensil then YOU will wash ONE utensil. If HE does a load of laundry then YOU will do a load of laundry. if HE vacuums one room then YOU will vacuum one room, etc. 

Only match the effort he puts in.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Your first step is an easy one. You don't have to stop doing his laundry or have a big conversation with him.

"Hub, the other night, you said that you should not have to do any work around here because you work more than I do. That's bullsh1t. I am telling you right now I need you to take over some chores around here".


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Blue jobs and pink jobs. Have an adult conversation and reach agreement about it, and then leave him to it. 

If he won't agree to be reasonable, or doesn't live up to his commitments, then you know where your problem is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jdawg2015 said:


> I'd talk to him about it before you go this route. Not saying don't do it, but if he's stubborn you could create new problems.


He is already causing problems. She should not have to walk on egg shells around him to get him to act like a grown man who shared in the responsibility for HIS home and HIS child.

She just has to tell him clearly that he needs to start doing his share of things and that until he does, she won't do squat for him... no laundry, no cooking, no shopping and so froth.

If he gets upset at that and it causes problems, then that's on him.




jdawg2015 said:


> Tell him "babe I need your help. Something has to give and finishing school and taking care of a household by myself is too much. I want you to do X, Y, and Z"


She does not need to tell him to do x, y, and z. She is not his boss, she is not in charge of the house, the children and getting things done.

At most I would make a list of the daily and weekly chores and tell him to pick half of them.




jdawg2015 said:


> If he's like most of us men, he needs instructions and not passive aggressive actions or hints.


I'm not picking on you, but I found a lot of humor in this. First, in your above post you went on about how there is no male entitlement, yada yada about household chores and child care. Then you tell her that when it comes to these things most of you men need instructions. Really? Why do men need instructions? Do they need for their boss and co-workers on their job to give them instructions every step of the way? Or do they have a job description and know what to do because it's their JOB.

Why doesn't she need him to give her instructions on what to do around the house and with child care? They are equal partners, right?

It's her husband's JOB to take care of his own home and his own children. It's his job to do these things as a partner and equal with his wife.

Again, not picking on you. Just wanted to make sure that it is clear that this is not a gender things. Both the OP and her husband are equal partners with equal respopnslibty.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

marduk said:


> Blue jobs and pink jobs. Have an adult conversation and reach agreement about it, and then leave him to it.
> 
> If he won't agree to be reasonable, or doesn't live up to his commitments, then you know where your problem is.


blue jobs and pink jobs are nonsense in many households. It might be working for you, it does not work for a lot of people.

For example, if a couple lives in an apartment or a place with little to no yard, what are the blue jobs? They are clearly not enough to equal what call 'pink jobs'.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

batsociety said:


> Every time I see these threads I get so mad. Like honestly what kind male entitlement bullsh*t is this? As far as I'm concerned if you want to live in the house you fkn help out. It doesn't matter if your partner works less than you or doesn't even work at all! Let the dude live in filth until he gets it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't always think it is male entitlement bull****. When we were first married (in my case before kids), it was like this. I did literally everything. DH's Mom had done everything. It was not that DH thought that was the way it should be. He just did not SEE. I could write lists until I was purple. Until I stopped doing the everything and started doing only what *I* needed, he continued to not see. Only then did he REALLY see what was going on.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> blue jobs and pink jobs are nonsense in many households. It might be working for you, it does not work for a lot of people.
> 
> For example, if a couple lives in an apartment or a place with little to no yard, what are the blue jobs? They are clearly not enough to equal what call 'pink jobs'.


Should they not be adjusted accordingly based on what needs doing?

The point is to divide them intentionally, not passive aggressively.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

marduk said:


> Should they not be adjusted accordingly based on what needs doing?
> 
> The point is to divide them intentionally, not passive aggressively.


I don't see how splitting jobs as blue jobs and pink jobs as a method of avoiding passive aggressiveness.

Why do you even bring up passive aggressiveness? Do you assume that the OP is going to be passive aggressive?


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

Well you can continue thinking like or woman and not accept what I'm telling you as one mans view and how things are taken.

Women typically hint. Ergo the day he finds no clean clothes rather than the wife telling the husband "hey babe I'm outta time I need you to do your clothes". Instead when she pulls the passive aggressive move and without announcement he has a pile of dirty clothes the husband will then log on to TAM to tell us how his wife has become a beotch.

It's called communication. Many men take direct input. What you are doing is expecting the guy to read minds. If precedence has been for wife to clean and do things and now the wife expects a change then guess what, it has to be clearly communicated. If wife now needs some things done that previously she handled then yes, would expect wife to say Babe I need you to load the dishwasher and fold clothes. This is not a mystery.

Also, we only get one side of things but does he also mow the lawn, take car of all the car and house repairs, etc? 

Now, if he refuses to help a little more and she can't handle the load, THEN I would employ the no laundry and not turning on the dishwasher behavior. Not everything is a nail needing a hammer.

I was married a long time and my exW and I over the years had "her stuff" and "my stuff" that we each did. 



EleGirl said:


> I'm not picking on you, but I found a lot of humor in this. First, in your above post you went on about how there is no male entitlement, yada yada about household chores and child care. Then you tell her that when it comes to these things most of you men need instructions. Really? Why do men need instructions? Do they need for their boss and co-workers on their job to give them instructions every step of the way? Or do they have a job description and know what to do because it's their JOB.
> 
> Why doesn't she need him to give her instructions on what to do around the house and with child care? They are equal partners, right?
> 
> ...


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> I don't see how splitting jobs as blue jobs and pink jobs as a method of avoiding passive aggressiveness.
> 
> Why do you even bring up passive aggressiveness? Do you assume that the OP is going to be passive aggressive?


Ok, I will load the dishwasher and the lady can get out the 30 ft ladder and use the pressure washer to clean the siding off every Spring, right?

Some things are "just the way it is".

I see feminism running amok in your post but maybe that's just me.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

I've done 99% of the household work since my love became pregnant. She is slowly getting back into the routine. She is a stay at home mom. I work 8-14 hours per day (weekends included).


Almost every man thinks the woman (typically a SAHM) should do nearly all household duties. Nearly every woman thinks there should be close to a 50% split. For those on the ropes, I advise switching roles for a day.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jdawg2015 said:


> Ok, I will load the dishwasher and the lady can get out the 30 ft ladder and use the pressure washer to clean the siding off every Spring, right?
> 
> Some things are "just the way it is".
> 
> I see feminism running amok in your post but maybe that's just me.


A lot of people live in apartments and have no outside maintenance to do.

A lot of homes don't need an annual pressure washing using a 30 ft ladder.

Not all things that are considered 'blue' jobs are all that hard to do and need super male strengths and abilities.

I have no doubt that the OP and her husband can figure out what needs to be done and which of them is best suited to do them.

I also get very amused by the idea of 'blue' and 'pink' jobs since I and a lot of other women have found that there are men who will do neither and so we do all of it... blue, pink, green and orange.

It is not feminism. It's that things need to be done and both should work together to do them. And that might mean that the OP is the one who ends up mowing the lawn (if they even have one).


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jdawg2015 said:


> Well you can continue thinking like or woman and not accept what I'm telling you as one mans view and how things are taken.


You said that men need their wives to give him instructions. I assume you mean instructions on what and to do around the house and with children. 

If a man lives by himself, does he know what to do in his own home? Does he know when the dishes need to be done, when to sweep the floor, when to cook? Or does he need a woman to tell him what to do and give him instructions?

If men need women to give them instructions and a list of what to do, then I guess men should never any more than visitation with their children because clearly they are unable to care for children and run a home on their own. 

Now I know that men know what to do when they live alone. And I know that men can get 50% to 100% custody of their children. And they know how to run the house and take care of the children.

So why exactly does a man who is married need his wife to give him instructions and tell him what needs to be done.

To be clear, a man whose wife works as much or more than he does, is not ‘helping’ his wife when he does things around the house and for the children. These things are not only her job. They are as much his job as hers. So he would be doing what he is responsible for.



jdawg2015 said:


> Women typically hint. Ergo the day he finds no clean clothes rather than the wife telling the husband "hey babe I'm outta time I need you to do your clothes". Instead when she pulls the passive aggressive move and without announcement he has a pile of dirty clothes the husband will then log on to TAM to tell us how his wife has become a beotch.


Saying that women typically hint is a sexist remark. It is as sexist as the comment that was made about male entitlement. 

In the post that I responded to, you did not say to communicate. You said that she needed to give him instructions. Instructions are a step by step description of what needs to be done.



jdawg2015 said:


> It's called communication. Many men take direct input. What you are doing is expecting the guy to read minds. If precedence has been for wife to clean and do things and now the wife expects a change then guess what, it has to be clearly communicated. If wife now needs some things done that previously she handled then yes, would expect wife to say Babe I need you to load the dishwasher and fold clothes. This is not a mystery.


Not once have I every suggested that the husband read minds. 

Even what you suggest is passive and not direct enough. To say that she is out of time implies that it is her job to do his laundry and this one time he needs to do them. She needs to be clear. “Since you refuse to do your fair share around here. You can do your own laundry from now on.”

I also think that she needs to tell him why she is doing this. 

“Between my job, my class and study, I work a good 20-30 hours a week more than you do. Plus I am doing 100% of all household chores and child care. You refuse to do your fair share around here. Since you refuse to do your fair share around here. You can do your own laundry from now on.”
There, that’s pretty clear. 



jdawg2015 said:


> Also, we only get one side of things but does he also mow the lawn, take car of all the car and house repairs, etc?


I don’t know, maybe you could ask her. It would be good to ask her instead of assume that she is lying and being passive aggressive.

Yes we usually only get one side of the story here. We can only reply to what we are told. If a poster lies, that is on them.



jdawg2015 said:


> Now, if he refuses to help a little more and she can't handle the load, THEN I would employ the no laundry and not turning on the dishwasher behavior. Not everything is a nail needing a hammer.
> 
> I was married a long time and my exW and I over the years had "her stuff" and "my stuff" that we each did.


Good for you.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

marduk said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> > blue jobs and pink jobs are nonsense in many households. It might be working for you, it does not work for a lot of people.
> ...


Of course they should be adjusted according to what needs doing. That’s not what you suggested. You suggested that they be adjusted according to gender.

Who has suggested that they be divided passive aggressively?

She asked her husband to do his fair share. He flat out said no. She cannot make him do anything. All she can do is to adjust her own behavior.

Sure she can tell him what she is doing too. That makes sense. But if he refuses to do his share, what else can she do?


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

I'm not sure the issue is that the husband doesn't realize she needs help, because of this -



thesky1291 said:


> And the other day when I asked why he doesn't help he stated that he works more than me so he shouldn't have to.


But I do agree that they need to discuss and lay out a clear division of labor, because "I need you to do more" doesn't set very good expectations for either partner, if "more" is not clearly defined.

And if they discuss and he STILL refuses... Then he can wash his own clothes!! :wink2:


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

OP

i think the issue here, that none have pointed out yet is really you BOTH may have too much on you plate.

lets see, he works 50 hours a week, you work 40 and have school, and a child to take care of.

do you really expect that its normal to have all of these responsibilities, a clean home, the laundry done, all the "little" chores of life not to get in the way with this type of demanding schedule?

something HAS to give. You can't have it all unless you can afford to hire a servant to take care of the things neither of your schedules will allow for.

just maybe, you should consider part time work or quit working all together so you can finish school.

sure, maybe this would make the money "tighter".....but think of the improvement it could bring your relationship. I sense a resentment building towards your husband and all the passive aggressive things being suggested here to "whip your husband into shape" are nothing more than relationship killers.

without hearing his side of the story...its hard to really say if your EXPECTATIONS of him are reasonable or not. there ARE two sides to every story. could he do more around the house? of course he could. but maybe at the end of a long day or work week, he is exhausted and needs to "recharge" but he has you sitting there judging what YOU THINK he should or shouldn't be doing. maybe he cares more about unwinding than if there are dishes in the sink. and who is to say that is a chore that MUST be done?

I highly suggest you stop and think about what he does do or bring to the relationship. I am willing to bet he doesn't come home from work and just flop on the couch and watch TV.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> Of course they should be adjusted according to what needs doing. That’s not what you suggested. You suggested that they be adjusted according to gender.
> 
> Who has suggested that they be divided passive aggressively?
> 
> ...


That's not what I thought I was suggesting. 

Call them job as and job bs for all I care. That's just what we call them. 

Divide up everything that needs doing. Bias them towards what each person dislikes the least. 

The end.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

marduk said:


> That's not what I thought I was suggesting.
> 
> Call them job as and job bs for all I care. That's just what we call them.
> 
> ...


But her question was what do you do when he won't do his share?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

jld said:


> But her question was what do you do when he won't do his share?


And my point is that it's very different if he agrees to do his share and then doesn't, or doesn't agree to it in the first place.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

marduk said:


> And my point is that it's very different if he agrees to do his share and then doesn't, or doesn't agree to it in the first place.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"But if he refuses to do his share, what else can she do?"

Response, please.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

batsociety said:


> Every time I see these threads I get so mad. Like honestly what kind male entitlement bullsh*t is this? As far as I'm concerned if you want to live in the house you fkn help out. It doesn't matter if your partner works less than you or doesn't even work at all! Let the dude live in filth until he gets it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm trying to deal with this attitude right now in my young son. I don't understand why, but my daughter *gets* it and she's not that much older. I just don't understand where it's come from, but maybe seeing his father not doing household chores has made an impact unfortunately.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

breeze said:


> I'm trying to deal with this attitude right now in my young son. I don't understand why, but my daughter *gets* it and she's not that much older. I just don't understand where it's come from, but *maybe seeing his father not doing household chores has made an impact unfortunately*.


That's it right there.


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## thesky1291 (Aug 11, 2014)

Sorry I have been MIA! Did not realize there were going to be so many replies. Thank you all. 
Okay so to answer some questions. My husband does do a few "manly" chores like mowing the grass every two weeks in the summer. And hanging heavy pictures for me... Changes light bulbs. Stuff like that maybe once a month. Takes out the trash maybe once a week and he does make sure it's by the road for pick up once a week. 
But that's it. That's all I can think of.
I am not trying to be passive aggressive. I have brought this up to him, and he stated that he does not help because he works more than me. That's why I came here for help. Because when he said that, I felt extremely un appreciated. And angry that I exhaust myself everyday for this family... And it's still not as "much" as he does (in his eyes).
I do not have the money to hire help.
I don't want to stop working and give up my career (that I worked so hard to get) over this. I don't want to give up school because I am so close to being done. 
I understand that I have to let go of somethings. I can't have the perfect house all of the time. All I am asking is for him to take some initiative and not just expect me to do every single thing. 
This all started when he was off for two days. I was at work all day. Came home around 6pm. No dinner was being prepared. Laundry had not been touched (it was piling up and he knew). Our son hadn't been bathed. The house that I had just cleaned the day before was a wreck. 
Those are the basic everyday chores. As long as laundry is done, dinner is made, kitchen is tidy and our son is clean and bathed - I am good. How can you not have ANY of those things done when you were off all day?? And then expect me to do it when I get home. 
Why can't he do anything around the house without me telling him?


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## thesky1291 (Aug 11, 2014)

Oh and by the way... Those basic everyday chores - I do everyday. Myself.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I’m trying to put things in perspective in your situation. So I have some questions.

How old are you and your husband?

Before you had your baby, did he do more household chores than he does now? If so, when did he stop doing so much?

Where you going to school and working when you two married?

What percentage of your joint income do you earn?

You both have heavy work schedule. You have a lot on your hands at home.

How many hours a week do the two of you spend together, doing date-like things; Just the two of you?

How is your sex life? If it’s not good, why?


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

It isn't fair, but you put up with it to be honest. If he came home to that situation, what would he say? Does he care if your child is running amok and needs unmet, or would it not bother him? Does he care if the place is a big mess when he gets home from work? Would he say anything if there was no dinner prepared?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

jld said:


> "But if he refuses to do his share, what else can she do?"
> 
> Response, please.


If he refuses, then he is being unreasonable. This means he's either an unreasonable person (which isn't fixable) or he feels he's in an unreasonable position already.

For example, is he secretly resentful of the perceived life of leisure his wife has compared to his stressful life?

It doesn't have to be real for him to think it real.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

It was easy for us since my wife did not have to work. I made the money so that my wife could have a very good lifestyle and she took care of the house. It just so happens that she enjoys running our household. Recently when I semi retired, I tried to take over some of her chores and she was unhappy. She said that she felt like I was trying to take away her job.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

marduk said:


> If he refuses, then he is being unreasonable. This means he's either an unreasonable person (which isn't fixable) or he feels he's in an unreasonable position already.


And if it isn't fixable?



> For example, is he secretly resentful of the perceived life of leisure his wife has compared to his stressful life?
> 
> It doesn't have to be real for him to think it real.


Isn't that the issue we were discussing on the other thread? Different perceptions? 

If so, who gives in?

OP, sometimes it feels like it comes down to who has more to lose if the relationship is lost over the conflict. Thing is, if you are just forced to give in all the time because of that, you risk developing resentment, which could kill the marriage in the long run anyway.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I agree that you guys are way too busy. He is working long hours. You are working longer hours (including school). And a small child that you guys hardly see. 

He needs to help. For sure. But you guys need to figure out how to reduce your work hours and increase some family time. I wouldn't suggest you quitting school or your work, but taking four classes on top of everything else is a lot. Would have been better to take one or two classes a year. Might be too late for that. 

Hopefully when your classes are done things will get better.

Not sure how you get him to help if he refuses. A serious discussion needs to happen. He needs to realize that since you both work full time, he needs to pull his wait. If he still refuses, you have a decision to make.

Life is tough with small kids. I wish you the best.


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## thesky1291 (Aug 11, 2014)

When we first got married, I was just a student. Then I started working part time to help out financially. Then I got promoted at work to a new position which was full time. I never thought I'd be in the position I am in now. I feel lucky to have the career that I do (with no degree and as my first full time job). 

Up until about 2 months ago, I made more money. By a long shot. He got a new job in the same field, just a different place with better pay. Now we make about the same. I'd say our incomes are 50:50. And then when you consider I work less... You could prob say I make more for the hours worked. 
I am 24 and he is 29. 
The sex life is good but he is selfish there as well. It's always him first. I've also noticed he seems uninterested if I initiate. He has to be the one to start. It's weird. 
We have date nights maybe once a month. 
He cares about our son, and they are really close. BUT potty training, pull up changing, plate fixing,drink pouring, bathing, getting dressed - all done by me.


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## thesky1291 (Aug 11, 2014)

Oh yeah and to the poster who said you bet he doesn't come home and flop on the couch and do nothing --- that's exactly what he does ?
I got lucky that our son has always been an awesome sleeper. He goes to bed by 8pm and sleeps all night until 6-7am. I do my school work when he is in bed most nights.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

One suggestion would be for your husband to be the one to get your toddler up and off to day care.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

jld said:


> And if it isn't fixable?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're asking if I have an answer if someone is just chronically unreasonable?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

marduk said:


> You're asking if I have an answer if someone is just chronically unreasonable?


Yes, if it is not, in your words, fixable.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

thesky1291 said:


> When we first got married, I was just a student. Then I started working part time to help out financially.
> 
> Then I got promoted at work to a new position which was full time. I never thought I'd be in the position I am in now. I feel lucky to have the career that I do (with no degree and as my first full time job).
> 
> ...


The two of you are working full time and it sounds like you really do need both incomes to get by. The idea that you cut back your hours and/or quite your job is not realistic.

You are close to finishing your degree. Do not give that up. And do not give up your job. Generally you get on shot in life to finish your degree and get on your career path. Women are hurt financially all the time for giving in to situations like this… giving up hours, jobs/careers, education. Don’t get sucked into it since being a SAHM is not your goal in life.

Your husband should be splitting the chores and child care 50/50 with you. That includes taking time off work when your child is sick, has school events, etc. That way it as much less impact on either of your jobs.

Do both of your employers have policies that allow for sick leave and personal time?

Do you do the grocery shopping too?



thesky1291 said:


> The sex life is good but he is selfish there as well. It's always him first. I've also noticed he seems uninterested if I initiate. He has to be the one to start. It's weird.


I’m not surprised at this.



thesky1291 said:


> We have date nights maybe once a month.


So you really never spend any other quality time together, just the two of you?



thesky1291 said:


> He cares about our son, and they are really close. BUT potty training, pull up changing, plate fixing, drink pouring, bathing, getting dressed - all done by me.


This is 100% unacceptable.

Did his mother do everything for him? I’m wonder how a full grown man gets to this point can thinks his wife is his maid.

(Don’t get me wrong, I was married to a guy who was worse than this. But I just do not get it.)

You have already asked him to take on his responsibilities for his own home and his own child. And he blew you off.

So I think that your next step is to stop doing anything you are doing for him as suggested earlier. You don’t have the energy or time to do his laundry, cook for him, etc. Let him do things for himself if he will not take care of his home and family beyond his job.

Also, get the books “His Needs, Her Needs” and “Love Busters”. Read them. Think through what our needs and love busters are. Then you will need to have a talk with him about all this.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> One suggestion would be for your husband to be the one to get your toddler up and off to day care.


Great suggestion. But the point is that her husband refuses to do anything like that. That is why she started this thread.

What does she do since he refuses?


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> Great suggestion. But the point is that her husband refuses to do anything like that. That is why she started this thread.
> 
> What does she do since he refuses?



Get up and leave for work.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
late to this party, but my situation. 
Wife and I both work full time jobs, no kids. 
Both leave the house about 7am. She gets home ~5pm She has dinner ready when I get home at 6:30pm. I do the dishes. We both do necessary chores after dinner. 

I do the weekly bills. She does the yearly taxes. We each do our own laundry. I make the beds and maintain the computers. She collects the mail, throws out the junk mail, orders miscellaneous household stuff. 2/3 of the time I do the food shopping. Other shopping is split evenly. We each take our cars in to be fixed. We pay maid service to clean the house, and handimen to fix stuff. She feeds the cats, I do the litterbox. She takes the cats to the vet. (she was the one who wanted cats).


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> Get up and leave for work.


That should be interesting. I wonder if he will even notice that the child needs tending too.

Not a bad idea to add that to the list of not doing his laundry, etc.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

I recently changed how things worked in our household as I was getting tired of being the one to do everything for the kids. I told DH that since he was up later than me anyway, he could take the kids to school and I would go into work early and pick the kids up after school. This also meant he had to be the one to get them ready for school. 

Now it's on him if he's late because he couldn't be bothered getting out of bed until half and hour before he starts work, and then has to help the kids get ready. I was doing pretty much everything in the morning while he slept in. Now I get up, get MYSELF ready and I'm out the door.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

breeze said:


> I recently changed how things worked in our household as I was getting tired of being the one to do everything for the kids. I told DH that since he was up later than me anyway, he could take the kids to school and I would go into work early and pick the kids up after school. This also meant he had to be the one to get them ready for school.
> 
> Now it's on him if he's late because he couldn't be bothered getting out of bed until half and hour before he starts work, and then has to help the kids get ready. I was doing pretty much everything in the morning while he slept in. Now I get up, get MYSELF ready and I'm out the door.


How has he reacted to this? And are he and the kids on time to school/work?


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> How has he reacted to this? And are he and the kids on time to school/work?


He's a good Dad, so generally he won't raise a fuss if I'm asking him to do something related to the kids, he just doesn't do it off his own bat. I think he saw that it was a good idea. He may not have realised at the time that his long sleep ins would become impossible. I have been getting a little irritated having to tell him it's time to get up (I seriously HATE that, makes me feel like his mother, blech), but that's going to stop, I've had it with that too. He can be late, they can be late and he can deal with the issues that come from that.

So far they've been on time though he put his start time 1/4hr later than it was, which was okay with me.

I also had an issue with bedtimes. It was always me making the kids go to bed. If it's up to him they would just stay up indefinitely (I know because I tested it one night. It was 2 hours after their bedtime until I just couldn't stand it any longer and got them into bed myself). It drives me insane to be the only one getting them to do what they have to do. I went out the other night and he had to put them to bed. The next day I asked him if they went to bed on time and he said, "on the dot".... I pretty much said, "well why is it ALWAYS up to me when we're BOTH here?!". He actually told them it was time for bed that night. Hallelujah!


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

I suggest you have a meal plan OP. If he won't cook on the days he works, then he can cook on the days he doesn't. Just make him responsible for those days. Don't ask, just tell him.

Start making notes of how much time you spend doing household chores, day care pickups/dropoffs and cooking. You already know how long you work and study. Add it all up. Show him the time. I bet it's at least 66hrs a week (guessing 40hrs work, 10hrs study, plus at least 2hrs per day and additional 2hrs over the weekend).

Edited to add: Have it out with him if he doesn't bother. Don't stew on it, don't do it for him, tell him he's shirking his responsibilities.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

I recently implemented a meal plan btw, and gave DH two days. I didn't ask him, I just informed him. He cooked tonight and had plenty of warning so it wasn't a cause for fighting either. I asked him what he wanted to cook his nights at the start of the week and put the plan on the fridge.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

breeze said:


> I recently changed how things worked in our household as I was getting tired of being the one to do everything for the kids. I told DH that since he was up later than me anyway, he could take the kids to school and I would go into work early and pick the kids up after school. This also meant he had to be the one to get them ready for school.
> 
> Now it's on him if he's late because he couldn't be bothered getting out of bed until half and hour before he starts work, and then has to help the kids get ready. I was doing pretty much everything in the morning while he slept in. Now I get up, get MYSELF ready and I'm out the door.


Michelle Obama said something like this. She said when her kids were little, she was doing everything on work/school mornings while her husband took his time getting out of bed. 

So one day she told Barack that she would be going to the gym at 4:45. When she got back at 6:30, or something like that, he had the kids up and getting ready for school.

Sadly, some people won't do anything until they can't get away with not doing anything.


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## thesky1291 (Aug 11, 2014)

We don't have quality time together a lot (dates, movies, etc) But we do talk everyday.. Laugh... 
While I do my homework he is usually sitting in the same room watching tv or playing a game on the computer. 
But yes we do need both of our incomes. If one of us stayed home, we would be in a severe financial crunch. 
And yes, growing up, his mother did everything!!! Everything! Too much! To this day she still does too much. 
We lived with our in laws for a little while we saved for our first home. She would even grab my laundry and do it without me asking. She'd clean up after us before I even had a chance to. AND she works full time.
She seems like such a super woman... But I have NO idea how she does it! 
My FIL doesn't seem totally out of the picture though. He mows their huge lawn. Is always fixing things around their older house. He would make it a point to tell us we need to make sure we help her clean after dinner. To me, that showed respect for his wife and all that she does. But all of the childcare and deep home cleaning is something she does. 
I don't know if FIL has always been this helpful or greatful though. I've heard stories of my MIL mowing the grass. So I bet somewhere along the line he "changed".


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

How about reducing what you feel needs to be done, and just doing that?

Your husband can then pick up the slack, or adjust to the new normal.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

1. TEAM PLAYERS RISE AND FALL TOGETHER - A satisfying marriage between intelligent spouses requires team players. Any spouse that does not pull their own pink blue, orange or purple chore weight will ultimately be resented by the love of their life. That resentment will slowly destroy the love and therefore the marriage from within. Ultimately the underperforming spouse will pay for their laziness and delusions in a variety of ways including becoming unattractive to their spouse. That lack of attraction creates all kinds of painful consequences. That is the price that is paid for misogynistic idiots. 

2. LOVE LANGUAGE - ACTS OF SERVICE - One of my wife's top love languages is acts of service. Pink or blue, it doesn't matter to her. I take care of what must be done by someone so she feels loved. That in turn fills my chest and she does reciprocate.

3. "AS IF I LIVED ALONE" PHILOSOPHY - I do all that I would have to do if I was living alone. That keeps me away from any feelings of entitlement. If my wife voluntarily does any of what I would otherwise have to do before I get a chance to, I appreciate it. If not, I take care of my responsibilities including cooking and cleaning and taking care of my child.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

thesky1291 said:


> We don't have quality time together a lot (dates, movies, etc) But we do talk everyday.. Laugh...
> While I do my homework he is usually sitting in the same room watching tv or playing a game on the computer.
> But yes we do need both of our incomes. If one of us stayed home, we would be in a severe financial crunch.
> And yes, growing up, his mother did everything!!! Everything! Too much! To this day she still does too much.
> ...


My parents are like that too, and Dad has started helping more with household chores only since he retired. I look back on my childhood and can't believe she did all of that, so I get the super woman comment.

You guys need something more to bind you together though. A few hours at night in the same room won't be enough to keep the love alive through the tough years ahead. Start working on that now, before you get to the point of not caring enough to bother.


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

OP, do you live in a house or apartment/condo? My guess is you are already stressed from the high class load so even little things get multiplied. 

Why does your husband not do the drop off for the daycare and you pick up? Is it on your way to work or is it way out of the way for your husband to do so makes no sense? Those details matter because you spent lot of time talking about that arrangement.

If you live in an apartment and no outside "house chores" then you need to get it across to him that he needs to help more. 

What I see is you did things differently previously and precedence has been set now you are taking classes and hubby thinks everything stays status quo around the house.

There is probably some resentment in him about you getting a degree and he does not. You need to realize that some men feel emasculated in such cases so tread lightly. If you guys laugh and talk, then nudge the topic and let him know you are doing this to improve your family and not about "I, me, and "MY education". My exW felt they way I am describing after I got a lot more education than her so I have been in your shoes. 

I can only speak from experience but your husband, if being resistance initially the WORST way I think to handle this is to play the hard ball cold turkey approach. Tell him why the education benefits the family and that this is paying him back, etc. In ideal world he just do auto pilot. He has not. So my advice is have heart to heart and spell out what you need. 

Part of the issue is he works different shifts and gets home late in the evening so the dinner and dishes it's easy to see why those things he does not do. So when he comes home at midnight there is no reason to be doing dishes and cooking dinner. As for laundry that should be an easy one.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

jld said:


> Yes, if it is not, in your words, fixable.


I think that there are unreasonable people.

And I think that in my experience these unreasonable people had a critical moment in their life when they made an unreasonable request of someone, and instead of hearing that it was unreasonable, they heard that it was OK.

And from then on, one of the core questions of their life becomes "why doesn't the world just do what I want it to do?"

We've all experienced such people. They find people that give into unreasonable demands even if it makes them unhappy, or they are alone in their unreasonableness.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

marduk said:


> I think that there are unreasonable people.
> 
> And I think that in my experience these unreasonable people had a critical moment in their life when they made an unreasonable request of someone, and instead of hearing that it was unreasonable, they heard that it was OK.
> 
> ...


And if her husband is one of these people?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

jld said:


> And if her husband is one of these people?


How am I to answer that?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

marduk said:


> How am I to answer that?


The point is, she is not the only person married to someone who is unlikely to change. Ele was in the same boat, and asked you the same question.

When it is not fixable, what do you suggest?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

jld said:


> The point is, she is not the only person married to someone who is unlikely to change. Ele was in the same boat, and asked you the same question.
> 
> When it is not fixable, what do you suggest?


If I knew how to make unreasonable people change, you and I wouldn't fight so much. :grin2:

The advice I would give would be to try to be rational: why do they think they get to be unreasonable, and yet demand reasonableness in return? Do they think the scales are tipped in their favor for some giant martyrdtom somewhere?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

marduk said:


> If I knew how to make unreasonable people change, you and I wouldn't fight so much. :grin2:
> 
> The advice I would give would be to try to be rational: why do they think they get to be unreasonable, and yet demand reasonableness in return? Do they think the scales are tipped in their favor for some giant martyrdtom somewhere?


Well, we clearly disagree on who is unreasonable.

I see you just added the grin. 

My thought is that when you live with someone unreasonable, you either learn to cope, or you leave. Some people are able to exert enough influence to effect change in the other person, though.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

jld said:


> Well, we clearly disagree on who is unreasonable.
> 
> I see you just added the grin.
> 
> My thought is that when you live with someone unreasonable, you either learn to cope, or you leave. Some people are able to exert enough influence to effect change in the other person, though.


Don't most unreasonable people have a reason to justify their behaviour?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

marduk said:


> Don't most unreasonable people have a reason to justify their behaviour?


Everyone justifies their own behavior.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

jld said:


> Everyone justifies their own behavior.


I'm following a thought experiment.

We've all known men to say to their stay at home wives that they don't have to lift a finger at home because they make all the money, therefore they're the martyr somehow.

Or wives to say that their husbands don't get how hard it is to stay at home with the kids all day, and that makes them the martyr somehow.

What if people who refuse to exert as much effort as their partner think in their minds that there's a giant counterbalance somewhere making it all equal?

Is there leverage someone could apply there, perhaps?


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> “Between my job, my class and study, I work a good 20-30 hours a week more than you do. Plus I am doing 100% of all household chores and child care. You refuse to do your fair share around here. Since you refuse to do your fair share around here. You can do your own laundry from now on.”
> There, that’s pretty clear.


You really think that is how the conversation should go?

Sounds a lot like ME, ME, ME, I'm more important, etc. Think if you are on the receiving end. H work gets him home later at night.

Sounds like to me with their schedule they should get all laundry and most chores done on the weekend. 

Her post seems mostly focused on the day car dropoff and pickup. 

I'm saying she wants things to change so she needs to spell it out. 
If she needs help with day care arrangements then be specific. 

He did not "refuse". H said he felt he was also working a lot of hours etc. OP is getting an education while H works and this is part of the scenario which you are ignoring as well.

As a man, if you take everything as "I don't get my way so I'll show you" then expect to have a LOT of issues with men. You seem to have a hair trigger with this issue and that's not the way I think OP should handle this AT. ALL.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jdawg2015 said:


> You really think that is how the conversation should go?
> 
> Sounds a lot like ME, ME, ME, I'm more important, etc.


You took one paragraph out of a post. In that post I said that she should add something similar when she talked to him.

It is one of many approaches suggested by me and others. I’m sure that the OP is smart enough to go through them and put something together that works for her.

When she does talk to him she does need to explain that she is working way more than he is, that she is exhausted and that he needs to step and do about 50% of the housework and chores.

When she does this, she will be talking about herself and her view point, so yes there will be some me, me, me what she says. When she does it, she is not saying that she is more important. She is saying that she is equally as important as he. 

He works 50 hours a week. She works in excess of 80 hours a week.

(She works 40 hours a week. Has about 35 hours of school/study, a 1 hour commute to work, does all the housework and child care. She works far more than he does.)



jdawg2015 said:


> Think if you are on the receiving end.


I would never be on the receiving end of that because I’ve never been so selfish as to expect someone else to be my maid and nanny.

But if I was failing as badly as he is at pulling my weight in a relationship, I would be glad that I was given a chance to correct my behavior.



jdawg2015 said:


> H work gets him home later at night.


She gets up at 5:30am and thus gets home earlier.

He gets up later and thus gets home later. He can do things earlier in the day. After all she does things when she gets home from work


jdawg2015 said:


> Sounds like to me with their schedule they should get all laundry and most chores done on the weekend.


OP said that she does the heavier chores on the weekend. And he refuses to do his share.


jdawg2015 said:


> Her post seems mostly focused on the day car dropoff and pickup.


Nope, she says that she is doing just about everything and he needs to be doing more… of everything.



jdawg2015 said:


> I'm saying she wants things to change so she needs to spell it out.
> If she needs help with day care arrangements then be specific.


She needs to be specific that his impression that he works more is wrong. 

That the housework and childcare are as much his responsibility as they are hers. So he needs to start doing his fair share.

IF there is something specific like taking their child do daycare, she can say that she’d like him to take that over.

But the problem is far bigger than that. She should not be doing all the housework, shopping, child care, etc. So they both need to sit down, work out what needs to be done and how they will spit it.

These things are no more her responsibility than they are his. So she should not be giving him chores to do like he’s 13 years old. They need to work together to figure out how they are going to run their home and take care of their child.


jdawg2015 said:


> He did not "refuse". H said he felt he was also working a lot of hours etc. OP is getting an education while H works and this is part of the scenario which you are ignoring as well.


Yes he did refuse. He’s done it in words and actions. 
1)	He said “he works more than me so he shouldn't have to.” 

2)	He has not started to do his fair share.


jdawg2015 said:


> As a man, if you take everything as "I don't get my way so I'll show you" then expect to have a LOT of issues with men. You seem to have a hair trigger with this issue and that's not the way I think OP should handle this AT. ALL.


I don’t even know what to say about this. Here we have a woman who is working many hours more than her husband. And this is your take on her being very clear to him about her feelings/thoughts on the topic of him refusing to take respopnslibty as her partner to work together to run their household and take care of their child.

On another thread, Blossom Leigh says that when her husband acted like this she just told him to leave and not return until he was willing to pull his weight with housework, etc. She says it worked.


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> You took one paragraph out of a post. In that post I said that she should add something similar when she talked to him.
> 
> It is one of many approaches suggested by me and others. I’m sure that the OP is smart enough to go through them and put something together that works for her.
> 
> ...


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Wife: "I need more help"

Husband: "I don't have to help because I work more than you"

Wife: stew secretly and hatch a plan to NOT WASH HIS SOCKS ANYMORE


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Hicks said:


> Wife: "I need more help"
> 
> Husband: "I don't have to help because I work more than you"
> 
> Wife: stew secretly and hatch a plan to NOT WASH HIS SOCKS ANYMORE


The heck with that.

Wife: Confidently and with no remorse buys a new laundry basket into which to pitch his dirty clothes when she does her own laundry.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

How about telling him his thought process doesn't fly? I'm not sure why that step is to be avoided.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Hicks said:


> How about telling him his thought process doesn't fly? I'm not sure why that step is to be avoided.


I kind of agree with this. It is not SIMPLY a matter of division of labor. "I don't have to cuz" is baby think.


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