# Boundary testing handbook



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rough draft. Feedback welcome. 

Boundary handbook:

Boundary testing: A boundary test is an interaction that violates the golden rule (do unto others as you would have them do unto you). 

This handbook is for folks in LTRs including marriage. It is mostly predicated on two things: (1) situational awareness and (2) self control. Being highly aware of boundary testing behaviors will only help you if you are able to manage your Anger, Fear and Insecurity. Get a handle on those and the rest of this is just technique. Practice and you will get good at it. 

If you want to get the most out of this handbook, you should consider the strategies below. 
1.	This is about patterns of behavior not the occasional oops. The purpose here is not to turn anyone into a hyper-vigilant whack job who takes everything personally. It is intended to help you recognize patterns that are important and worth addressing. 
2.	After you read this through the first time, you may be filled with righteous indignation about all the ways your partner violates your boundaries. Stop for a moment and try to determine:
a.	How often you do this type of stuff to them
b.	When you do it, do they make a big deal about it, or not
c.	Whether this is a boundary issue or a different type of relationship issue (maybe you talk too much about stuff they find boring, or maybe you complain a lot more than you realize)
3.	If you decide that your boundaries really are getting badly violated, take heart:
a.	Your partner is likely VERY consistent. This means you can plan ahead how you will respond to these boundary breaching behaviors.
b.	Humor is best, but you should be teasing THEM. Absent humor, be VERY short on words and make heavy use of tone of voice and body language. And stay calm – they may not be calm – but you have to. 
4.	Are they really behaving badly “overall” or are your standards unrealistic? The best way to know is to triangulate:
a.	Do your friends/family show much more respect for your boundaries than your partner does? 
b.	Does your partner show much more respect for their friends and families boundaries than for yours? 

In general you have a serious problem if your partner treats other people noticeably better than they treat you. And if other people treat you a lot better than your partner, that is another bad sign. 

The good news. Even if your partner is consistently violating your boundaries and treating you worse than they treat the maid, it is likely fixable. In fact boundary management can become one of the most entertaining aspects of your marriage if you master it. Engage properly with your “boundary testing partner” and it will help you reach your full emotional potential. And a partner who helps you reach your full potential is by definition a great partner. The stuff below is rarely malicious, it is just a “style of interaction”. 

The bad news. If you do not enforce your boundaries, your partner will gradually lose respect and ultimately love for you. They will frequently do things to you they would absolutely not accept you or anyone else doing to them and they will slowly but surely get “worse” over time. You have two choices, learn how to enforce your boundaries, or continue getting your butt slowly but steadily kicked until finally you literally have no a$$ left and no choice but to stand at attention and do “each and every little thing that pops into their head” until they tire of you and find someone more fun to play with. 

The way a typical person deals with a boundary testing partner is this: 
-	The tester does a series of minor things you dislike. Each of those things is below your threshold for conflict. Hey you’re a grownup. You don’t sweat the small stuff. You don’t want to be petty. Besides you love your spouse and these individual items are “NOT WORTH A FIGHT”. Meanwhile you DO notice this stuff and it is slowly making you angry. 
-	Finally they do one more of them after you have had a long stressful day, or you are tired, or worse have had a few beers. You now erupt into high intensity conflict HIC mode. You say and do inappropriate things. When the dust settles you apologize for being a jerk. Which you SHOULD, because you WERE a jerk. Classic passive/aggressive. Very destructive. After having that happen enough you decide you no longer want to fight (since you always lose) and you simply become passive/passive. 

If you want to get good at this the first step is to recognize the main categories of boundary testing:
1.	I am more important than you are (my time, my feelings, my priorities, my money, my social status)
2.	You are not important: Everything and everybody else in my life consistently gets prioritized ahead of you. 
3.	I am able to directly control your emotional state. I can make you angry, afraid and/or insecure at will
4.	I am able to manipulate your actions through a combination of 1 and 2 in a manner that clearly violates the golden rule 

Before digging into the long, near exhaustive (and therefore possibly boring  list of categorized boundary violating behaviors), I am going to hit the “deadly” dozen. I am starting with the topic of apologies. Or non-apologies. Or one of my favorites “I’m mad at you because you’re mad at me”. 

Apologies: The technical term for this section is Error “management”. I am not even going to call this “conflict” management. Because frankly there are folks who excel at “jumping over” their own bad behavior. Literally they pretend like nothing happened, and they often get away with it. This is a big aspect of a relationship, maybe even be THE biggest one. We all make mistakes, treat each other unfairly, etc. The list below goes from your basic perfect world, slowly down the steps to Hell. When your partner has very clearly treated you badly:
1.	GOLD STANDARD: THEY bring it up shortly after it happens. They don’t wait to see if you will let it go. THEY believe you deserve better than that. They apologize, commit to behaving better next time, and do something nice for you to show their contrition is sincere.
2.	When you bring it up they apologize, commit to fixing it and perform some acts of contrition. 
3.	They don’t apologize but they DO commit to not repeating the behavior. If sincere, this is actually WAY more important than an apology. 
4.	They sincerely apologize but avoid committing to change. Beware the “empty” apology that means nothing. This step is however a positive step. By the second or third empty apology you simply begin insisting on a commitment to improve.
5.	They flat out refuse to commit to handling that type situation differently/better in the future 
6.	They give you the non-apology. Some variation of “I am sorry if that hurt your feelings”. The implication is that you are too sensitive. 
7.	They go into “lawyer” mode and explain that while normally this behavior is frowned on, in this specific case it was justified by “insert long, self serving rationalization”. 
8.	They directly blame you. If only you hadn’t forgotten to take about the trash on Memorial day 3 years ago, they wouldn’t still be angry and would never have done this. 
9.	They deny the whole thing. Look you in the eye and deny that it ever happened. 
10.	They deny the whole thing and attack you for even SUGGESTING they might do something like that.
11.	They deny, attack you for suggesting it and then blow it up into “I am not even talking to you until you apologize” for even saying such a thing. 


I am more important than you are

Assuming you are generally emotionally positive/upbeat and are also conversationally competent, (you don’t subject your partner to endless observations about particle physics, needlepoint, or other stuff they find deadly boring) the stuff below is “I am more important than you”

Focus: 
Some litmus test questions for focus are: 
1.	How difficult is it to get your partners full and undivided attention? 
2.	Does your partner expect or demand your undivided attention, but rarely give you theirs?
3.	Does your partner try to avoid situations where the two of you block out the rest of the world?

If you are interesting and fun to be with, you should address these types of behaviors because they tend to cause ripple effects throughout the relationship. 

Quality Time:
While having dinner for two your partners phone comes out and stays out while they multi-task between your conversation, and a phone based game/texting/talking on the phone. In an extreme case, the phone, not you, is primary focus. This applies to any “one on one” situation including standing in a long line. 

It is ok if your partner is “child focused” to the point where they feel the need to be “available” to the kids/baby sitter while you are out. But that means they only take calls from the kids, keep them brief AND emphasize to the kids/sitter that they want communication limited to urgent matters. 

In the normal course of your day, it is a bad idea to:
1.	Allow your partner to get in the habit of initiating a conversation with you while they are engaged in an activity (reading/texting) that also requires concentration. 
2.	Get in the habit of initiating a conversation while your partner is doing something (reading/texting) with you expecting and clearly being agreeable to getting at most partial attention.
3.	Continue a conversation even though your partner is getting frequently interrupted by non-urgent kids/calls/texts/etc. If they are legitimately busy, go do something else. Hey you have a phone too.
4.	Continue a conversation when your partner is clearly distracted/not fully engaged due to their "internal" state (boredom, fatigue, anxiety about something). If they are anxious about something, get them to talk about it. But don’t settle for partial attention. 

Prioritization:
Don’t confuse “focus” with “prioritization”. A good example of the distinction: You spend 8 uninterrupted hours together, and your partner is focused – but the WHOLE conversation is about THEM. Even worse, when you attempt to actually change the subject to you, they quickly steer it back to themselves. This is a matter of “I am paying attention to you solely to ensure we are both completely focused on ME”. 
Some litmus test questions for prioritization are: 
1.	How often does your partner really want to know about your day? I don’t mean they ask the perfunctory “how was your day”? I mean, they really want to know. And when you tell them they empathize and even ask some questions. 
2.	How often do you actually do what “you” want, when your partner wants to do something else? 
3.	How often do they even open up with “what/where would you like to “go/do”?

The spectrum for handling priority “conflicts” is below. From “great” to – “why don’t my needs matter”?:
1.	Giving: They know you. And that means they know what matters to you. If the conflict is in an area where it is very important to you, and not so much to them, they smile and do what makes you happy. 
2.	Proactive: THEY suggest a solution which meets both your needs even if it isn’t exactly what you want right now. 
3.	Reactive/cooperative: They don’t make a win/win suggestion, but are fully receptive to yours
4.	Reactive/resistant: They resist but ultimately agree to the win/win
5.	Oppositional/defiant: They refuse the win/win even when it is fair. They want what they want. What you want – well that doesn’t matter because ummmm – well – you don’t matter.

B. Tone: (from good to – why the hell did I marry this person)
1.	Using a loving, patient and kind tone
2.	Using a neutral tone
3.	Speaking to you as if you are less than an equal/a servant - issuing commands - instead of making requests 
4.	Responding to a serious/awkward question you have asked - with silence
5.	Interrupting you frequently and/or interrupting you without acknowledging they have done so with a - "sorry I interrupted - what were you saying"?
6.	Allowing or subtly encouraging THEIR friends/family to routinely interrupt you 
7.	Frequently putting you down in private sometimes under the guise of joking around 
8.	Putting you down in public 
9.	Being quickly/casually dismissive of your suggestions, requests and/or ideas
10.	When you first see each other at the end of a work day immediately complaining, nagging, launching into a long detailed self focused interaction
11.	Responding with impatience/anger/indifference when you are trying to convey something important/intimate about yourself (such as initiating sex, or actually while you are having sex, or sharing a painful experience)

2. If you let them, these “may or may not be” examples of “I can control your emotional state”: 
A.	In the middle of a low emotion conversation you get “sucker punched”. Which means your partner is being highly critical of you, and/or is very angry/threatening towards you without any warning and with little or no apparent reason
B.	Trying to get you to own “their” emotions. For instance “I am too stressed” to ever be in the mood. This is an indirect way to say “unless you can remove most/all the stressors from my environment” you will be involuntary celibate “inCel”
C.	Repeatedly delivering a critical or negative message wrapped in humor and claiming “they are just kidding”
D.	Taking their bad day out “on” you, instead of sharing it “with” you 
E.	Attacking your “core” instead of addressing a situation
F.	Attacking your behavior with “always and never” you always “…” you never “…” 
G.	Rapidly escalating in emotional intensity and aggressiveness when you disagree with how they are treating you
H.	Working the “fear” button by:
o Vague or not so vague threats to end the relationship
o	Forming and pursuing inappropriate relationships with potential mates

3. If you let them, these “may or may not be” examples of “I can control your behavior”: 
A. Acting angry when:
o	They were clearly in the wrong until YOU apologize or
o	Until YOU try to defuse by being extra nice even if you don’t overtly apologize
o	You bring up a topic they don’t want to discuss (lack of sex, rude behavior on their part, inconsiderate behavior on their part)
o	You talk about doing something they don’t want you to do, and when asked about “why” they don’t want you to do it, giving you the “shutdown” via “I am not going to discuss this with you”. Staying angry until you agree not to do it
o	They aren’t getting their way
B. Accusing YOU of being controlling when:
o	You are simply enforcing reasonable boundaries 
o	You are asking them to follow through on a commitment 
C. Getting you to complement them or even getting you to initiate sex when they have no intention of saying yes
o	Flirting with you during the day and then avoiding bed until they are “too tired”
o	Flirting with you and then when you initiate, creating some conflict to avoid sex
o	Asking you for compliments on their appearance when they never reciprocate


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Mem ~

Is this geared primarily toward men being boundary tested by their wives?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Enchantment,
I tried to be gender neutral. Did I succeed? Once I take this from the current "raw" draft form to a finished product my intent was to post it in 'general'. 

Also - what is your general reaction to the content/structure?

I have not dealt with sex in it very much. The finished product will do so. That said it will be written in terms of high desire/lower desire - not man/woman. 



Enchantment said:


> Mem ~
> 
> Is this geared primarily toward men being boundary tested by their wives?


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

MEM,

This is excellent! You are the master at this!

Btw. Make it a sticky, so all good Nice Guys can reference this in thier journey.
Include fitness test examples. Some of us don't get how to handle them when we first start out, and it takes a while for us to catch on.

Most imprtantly, onc you gather up some more good info together, bind it up and publish this!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Thanks Alpha - will do.




alphaomega said:


> MEM,
> 
> This is excellent! You are the master at this!
> 
> ...


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I chuckled when I read your post MEM. “Situational Awareness”, “Emotional Intelligence”, “Boundaries and Boundary Protection”. These three are massive topics all in their own right as I’m sure you are aware! And all this to stay happily married!!! It’s easier to get trained as an astronaut and fly single handed to Mars and back!!!

I jest of course. But they are massive topics and there’s a lifetime of learning there.

I wonder how many men are Emotionally Intelligent enough to know for example that they can go from inner peace and calm to a raging, angry lunatic in less that 0.1 of a second?

And not only that but they are actually designed to work that way!

And then how many men I wonder are “Situationally Aware” enough of their emotions to know that their rage is in the process of being triggered (emotional “flooding”) before it is actually triggered and to walk away before their rage hits them.

And then we get to the Boundary Violation itself and when we come to protect our boundaries we’ve to use Humour lol.

But I totally and utterly agree with you. If anybody wants to really understand and learn about MEMs prerequisites of Emotional Intelligence and Situational Awareness then I thoroughly recommend Emotional Intelligence (Daniel Goleman) and Awareness (Anthony de Mello).


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Enchantment,
> I tried to be gender neutral. Did I succeed? Once I take this from the current "raw" draft form to a finished product my intent was to post it in 'general'.
> 
> Also - what is your general reaction to the content/structure?
> ...


Hi MEM ~
Yes, the text was gender-neutral. I had asked the question because I was trying to figure out if the content was. I don't have much personal experience with situations where my husband is constantly pushing my personal boundaries to be able to see it from that perspective.

Content - Good. Are you going to add any examples on what to do when a boundary is breached?

Structure - maybe split up into subsections with headings for easier reading?

I just read AEFH's response - it is a large topic as he suggests, so I guess you are going for a more condensed "Reader's Digest" version of it. I think it's a worthwhile topic to address, so good job on doing that. :smthumbup:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bob,
Great suggestions. Goleman is brilliant. This stuff is hard. But i do think you improve a lot thru practice.

=AFEH;352341]I chuckled when I read your post MEM. “Situational Awareness”, “Emotional Intelligence”, “Boundaries and Boundary Protection”. These three are massive topics all in their own right as I’m sure you are aware! And all this to stay happily married!!! It’s easier to get trained as an astronaut and fly single handed to Mars and back!!!

I jest of course. But they are massive topics and there’s a lifetime of learning there.

I wonder how many men are Emotionally Intelligent enough to know for example that they can go from inner peace and calm to a raging, angry lunatic in less that 0.1 of a second?

And not only that but they are actually designed to work that way!

And then how many men I wonder are “Situationally Aware” enough of their emotions to know that their rage is in the process of being triggered (emotional “flooding”) before it is actually triggered and to walk away before their rage hits them.

And then we get to the Boundary Violation itself and when we come to protect our boundaries we’ve to use Humour lol.

But I totally and utterly agree with you. If anybody wants to really understand and learn about MEMs prerequisites of Emotional Intelligence and Situational Awareness then I thoroughly recommend Emotional Intelligence (Daniel Goleman) and Awareness (Anthony de Mello).[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

My husband--surprise, surprise--has been testing my boundaries a lot lately in a few of these forms.
All things considered, here are some positives:
1. Here and there, he's said things that indicate his own inner emotional chaos, as opposed to 100% blaming me.
2. Last night when he wanted sex after a weekend of immature/ disrespectful treatment on and off, I declined in the best, most sincere and respectful way I possibly could.
*Sex cannot be the only unconditional and stable factor between us.*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

This feels like the Cliff's Notes version of 3000 posts.


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## Boogsie (Aug 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Rough draft. Feedback welcome.


Ah, Miyagi-san. Now that we know the attack, what is the defense?

For me, recognizing the boundary tests is relatively easy. However, responding to them *correctly*, is not.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Boogsie said:


> Ah, Miyagi-san. Now that we know the attack, what is the defense?
> 
> For me, recognizing the boundary tests is relatively easy. However, responding to them *correctly*, is not.


Boogs,

Practice makes perfect.

Another opportunity will present itself shortly, I'm sure.


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## Boogsie (Aug 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Boogs,
> 
> Practice makes perfect.
> 
> Another opportunity will present itself shortly, I'm sure.


I understand what you mean, but I think you missed my point.

A big problem is you can be told what boundary tests are and how to recognize them. But that really doesn't do anything for anyone.

I can tell you that dancing exists and that it is the rhythmic moving of the body to music. However, that doesn't show, or tell you, how to dance.

Now, I can read about boundary tests and learn how they are handled in the PUA game, but I've not had any luck reading about boundary tests in marriage, which are much different than in dating.

I grew up in a house where my father was the ultimate doormat/spineless/'niceguy'. I never had a chance to learn how to handle boundary tests in marriage. I'm trying to learn now, but there are times when I handle them badly. Some times I don't. Learning by experimentation is much more dangerous to your relationship than learning by example.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Your efforts are appreciated, MEM.
MEM is very good at providing scenarios and how those scenarios play out, but the circumstances surrounding how, and in what manner someone
may test your boundaries is nearly endless.

Which is why having a clear definition of the boundary, what the boundary means, and the patent response, regardless of who it is becomes important.

The ultimate takeaway about dealing with boundary tests? You don't worry about how you did. If you address the violation, you are doing the right thing.

In the case of a 'Nice Guy' or someone that has very poor, or no boundaries, I'll say this ... don't worry about going overboard. Odds are you won't, but it
may feel that way, because conflict in and of itself feels 'overboard' and out of control. Fact is, conflict is the perfect arena to exercise control over yourself
and the situation.

My personal code?

1. Stay calm.
2. The response is best suited to a singular statement or question ... not a discussion. 
3. If the violator insists on a discussion to challenge, or further torpedo any semblance of respect, walk away.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Boogs,

My experience indicates when boundaries get tested, the urge to plead, whine, explain/protest puts the lump in your throat.

Do you agree?


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## ManDup (Apr 22, 2011)

I like it a lot.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Boogsie,

There are ways to program "behaviors" into yourself. I am not a behavioral expert but this is the "little" bit I do know:
- As a man some level of your "comfort" with conflict has a physical foundation. I do NOT smack/punch people - LEAST of all my W (LMAO at the very thought). That said the "stronger" - not just cardio fitness but stronger (in terms of upper body strength) I feel the harder it is for ANYTHING to scare me. 

AND at least for me - you only get 2 "shots" before I walk away. The initial poke, I respond. The second poke - I respond again. If there is anything even close to a third poke I silently walk away. No one has the right to keep hammering you when YOU are being constructive. Just walk away. 

And then for me - I am very aware of "patterns". And most people are delightfully consistent. Even my W who is constantly inventing new fitness tests - there is a pattern to them. If you recognize a "pattern" of your W giving you grief start with:
1. Is it you? Meaning are you repeatedly doing/not doing/forgetting something important to her? If so - fix THAT.
2. If not - if this is just a seemingly random poke/set of pokes from her - PRE-PROGRAM your responses. That way you are not trying to come up with a clever answer while feeling super anxious. If she is "right" she gets a quick apology - but if she continues you find a way to SHUT HER DOWN very quickly and very firmly. Learn/develop a "sharp" tone of voice. Practice - I am not kidding. Being LOUD represents a lack of control. But a controlled sharp tone - is very effective. 

My W and I are BOTH a bit overly tenacious at times. And so when faced with someone who is "still bringin it - after an unqualified apology" the recipient uses a sharp tone and asks "What part of I am totally sorry" did you not understand?

Actually - when she is functionally insane - which isn't often I go to the well and come back with "I am not here to be your kicked dog" this is followed by a "what the hell is wrong with you"? look. 




Boogsie said:


> Ah, Miyagi-san. Now that we know the attack, what is the defense?
> 
> For me, recognizing the boundary tests is relatively easy. However, responding to them *correctly*, is not.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*One of Deejo's greatest hits*

>>>>>>>>>>>
Deejo post:
>>>>>>>>>>>

The self-assessment is necessary to know how you cope with and handle 'pokes'.

I think what MEM is saying is: "Know thy self."

Being able to tell if the poke is playfully provocative, a passive aggressive cheap shot, or an attempt to deflect or pull you into her own emotional tempest is part of the assessment. 

Being able to identify it may certainly help you to execute an appropriate response. But ... overall a poke is generally meant to inflame. 

Knowing whether you need to break out a fire extinguisher, or 'get low, and go' is part of taking ownership of yourself.

Yelling at the fire is seldom a good way to extinguish it. 
__________________
And there will come a time, you'll see, with no more tears.
And love will not break your heart, but dismiss your fears. ~ Mumford & Sons, After The Storm 





Deejo said:


> Your efforts are appreciated, MEM.
> MEM is very good at providing scenarios and how those scenarios play out, but the circumstances surrounding how, and in what manner someone
> may test your boundaries is nearly endless.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Boogsie,
More on tactics:

As for your W getting you upset. Here is how I got past that as mine is a skilled button pusher. I "expect" her to be provocative. That way I am not surprised. I agree with you that humor is by far the best response. Sometimes teasing her when she is being ridiculous. Lacking a humorous response this is my spectrum from mild to WTF?
Mild:
1. Turning my head at her and giving her a quizzical look (this is the gentle version of why did you say/do that?). If she says "what"? in an irritated voice I just give her that gentle smile (meaning we BOTH know what you just did). Full unbroken eye contact. 

2. Slowly and deliberately rotating my body so I am facing her and giving her the exact same look. The full body amplifies the message. Same reaction if I get a "what"? Though I may add "Do I really need to explain why I am looking at you this way"? This is a lightly amused tone. But if she insists I briefly explain my view. If she even has a halfway decent explanation - I shrug and say "ok" - slowly which means I understand but don't like it. Or I say "next time X response would be preferable". But if her explanation is nonsense she gets a brief "I disagree" followed by a temporary "chill" in my behavior. 

3. Same as 2 except I walk up to her while giving her the "look". Disclaimer - this is not physical intimidation. I have never/will never hit my W. Same conversational path as above. VERY few words, mostly body language. 

Moderate:
4. Is that constructive? 
5. Would you like me to speak to you that way/like me to do that to you?

High impact:
6. I would NOT do that to you!
7. What did you just say to me?
8. Same as 7 with full on body language.
9. Same as 8, but at a distance of 18" - right at the edge of her personal space. More distance should be used if you have a big height diff - we don't. She should not have to stare "up" at you. That isn't nice.
10. "THAT is not acceptable" or "THAT is not even close to acceptable"

10 has a very specific meaning for us. It means all conversation, all interaction other than the minimum needed for kids/schedules stops until I get an unqualified apology. This is basically dropping the emotional temperature in the house to absolute zero. I use 10 very sparingly because I have a delightful if aggressive wife. She just doesn't push boundaries that far very often. Good thing for her. Frostbite hurts. During this time I am polite. Reserved but polite. 

1 - 10 unresolved - meaning she escalated - correspond to varying degrees of chill. This is BY FAR the most effective method for dealing with a boundary pushing, button happy spouse. 






MEM11363 said:


> Boogsie,
> 
> There are ways to program "behaviors" into yourself. I am not a behavioral expert but this is the "little" bit I do know:
> - As a man some level of your "comfort" with conflict has a physical foundation. I do NOT smack/punch people - LEAST of all my W (LMAO at the very thought). That said the "stronger" - not just cardio fitness but stronger (in terms of upper body strength) I feel the harder it is for ANYTHING to scare me.
> ...


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Boogsie,
> More on tactics:
> 
> As for your W getting you upset. Here is how I got past that as mine is a skilled button pusher. I "expect" her to be provocative. That way I am not surprised. I agree with you that humor is by far the best response. Sometimes teasing her when she is being ridiculous. Lacking a humorous response this is my spectrum from mild to WTF?
> ...


What's the answer when the reply to any of these is
"Get bent, knobhead" or "How dare you sulk / throw your weight around / try to intimidate me, you bastard?"


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lets take a sample: "Would you be ok if I did that to you"

It isn't sulking nor throwing weight around. It is a specific question intended to extract a simple and sincere answer: yes or no. 

If the response is to attempt to intimidate you into backing down when you clearly aren't sulking/intimidating I guess you have a choice. 





Sawney Beane said:


> What's the answer when the reply to any of these is
> "Get bent, knobhead" or "How dare you sulk / throw your weight around / try to intimidate me, you bastard?"


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

MEM,

This is all great stuff and I am soaking it in, especially since I am getting divorced and looking to improve myself.

While you are great at the process and how to handle it, I have trouble recognizing the boundary tests. Can you give some examples of some common ones?

I've Googled fitness tests and sh*t tests and the Titanic video comes up as well as processes for dealing with it, but not specific examples.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Lets take a sample: "Would you be ok if I did that to you"
> 
> It isn't sulking nor throwing weight around. It is a specific question intended to extract a simple and sincere answer: yes or no.
> 
> If the response is to attempt to intimidate you into backing down when you clearly aren't sulking/intimidating I guess you have a choice.


Another typical strategy - with that question - is to engage in lawyering about "why this is different" and allowances should be made, blah, blah, blah... usually having something to do with what YOU did to make them.... blah, blah, blah


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Lets take a sample: "Would you be ok if I did that to you"
> 
> It isn't sulking nor throwing weight around. It is a specific question intended to extract a simple and sincere answer: yes or no.
> 
> If the response is to attempt to intimidate you into backing down when you clearly aren't sulking/intimidating I guess you have a choice.


And the choice should be, "That is totally unacceptable language that you would never tolerate from me"


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM,

this bit:
"..._7. What did you just say to me?
8. Same as 7 with full on body language.
9. Same as 8, but at a distance of 18" - right at the edge of her personal space..." _sounds very like the bit in an arguement in a boozer just a couple of seconds before the fists start flying.The trouble with escalating is it sometimes gets out of your ability to control it, and then all sorts of nasty sh1t can happen. I think a goodish number of people could use this method to go from a button-push to a stand-up fight in no time flat.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> MEM,
> 
> this bit:
> "..._7. What did you just say to me?
> ...


That's why the emphasis is on emotional control.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sawney,
Why are u focusing on the upper end of the intensity scale?

If you think that stuff is too aggressive, don't use it. Mostly I use the mild part of the list.

You seem intimidated by your wife.

Sawney Beane;355413]MEM,

this bit:
"..._7. What did you just say to me?
8. Same as 7 with full on body language.
9. Same as 8, but at a distance of 18" - right at the edge of her personal space..." _sounds very like the bit in an arguement in a boozer just a couple of seconds before the fists start flying.The trouble with escalating is it sometimes gets out of your ability to control it, and then all sorts of nasty sh1t can happen. I think a goodish number of people could use this method to go from a button-push to a stand-up fight in no time flat.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Sawney,
> Why are u focusing on the upper end of the intensity scale?
> 
> If you think that stuff is too aggressive, don't use it. Mostly I use the mild part of the list.
> ...


Not at all. It's a simple understanding - both of us are capable of putting the other into intensive care with one blow. Although we are both disciplined and controlled people, we both know that each of us is able to physically ruin the other permanently. I'm not intimidated by a bull in a field, but I'm not going to go out of my way to provoke it either.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Sawney,

When MEM says "afraid", I don't think he means fear of physical altercation.

I think he means conflict avoidant - trying your darndest to avoid setting her off.

Does that describe you. Walking on eggshells?


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Conrad said:


> Sawney,
> 
> When MEM says "afraid", I don't think he means fear of physical altercation.
> 
> ...


No. If either of us feels the need to point something out to the other, we both feel totally empowered to. Our actions toward one another are dsiciplined and respectful, because we are both aware of our potential.

Neither of us thinks disagreement is unhealthy, but both of us believe that conciously escalating arguements and conflict is a stupid, potentially dangerous thing to do. "Full on body language", the _come on have ago if you think you're hard enough_ stance, has no place in our house, any more than it does when we're training.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I don't think he means "menacing"

That sounds like what you're describing.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Another typical strategy - with that question - is to engage in lawyering about "why this is different" and allowances should be made, blah, blah, blah... usually having something to do with what YOU did to make them.... blah, blah, blah


Yes...OR, the response sometimes is "I wouldn't care. YOU have a problem because you care!"

So instead of asking "would you like it if I...", I just make a statement like:

"If I were upset (like you are), and had offered to do something for you, I would still do it anyway, because I love you."
--this in response to his "never mind, I WON'T make you a sandwich then" (because I'm pouting that you won't have sex with me).

I.e., instead of *asking,* I simply say what I would do.
Don't know if that's better or not. An imprint of my head is firmly set into this wall here. :banghead:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sawney,
I am sincerely confused. 

You asked a question along the lines of "if you challenge your partner in a low key manner" what do you do if they escalate by accusing you of sulking/being a bully?

Was that simply curiosity? If it was thats great. I assumed you were asking because that does happen to you when you convey that you don't like how you are being treated. 

That said, common sense as always needs to be the primary driver here. The first law of LTR's:
1. Use the lowest impact approach available that achieves the desired outcome. 
2. Thermal warfare coupled with humour is the most advanced "technology" available in the field of human conflict within a long term relationship. 

If you have a "volatile" partner who escalates when you enforce your boundaries in firm, fair and low affect manner, you simply convey via body language that you don't like their escalation at all and then you say "we can discuss this when you are ready to do so in a calm and constructive manner. And now I am going to go do "insert activity here". If they immediately adopt a calm and constructive tone - you don't walk away. Otherwise you do. And if they follow you, you either go in a room and shut the door or if they are not allowing that, you leave the house. 

And if their initial behavior/escalation was particularly bad, you minimize interaction and conversation until the initial conversation is revisited and resolved. That does NOT mean you talk about your "feelings" IMO. It does mean you clearly convey that their behavior was not appropriate/acceptable/etc.

Because one very toxic pattern goes like this:
1. I poke you (say something intended to inflame)
2. You respond calmly but firmly that my poke was not ok
3. I escalate rapidly and crazily
4. You end the interaction
5. The next time I see you/the next day I pretend like nothing happened.
6. And in the spirit of "letting things go" I PRETEND like nothing happened also. 

5. Is bad. 6. Is MUCH worse. 5 is about them. 6 is about YOU. 

Make sense?








Sawney Beane said:


> No. If either of us feels the need to point something out to the other, we both feel totally empowered to. Our actions toward one another are dsiciplined and respectful, because we are both aware of our potential.
> 
> Neither of us thinks disagreement is unhealthy, but both of us believe that conciously escalating arguements and conflict is a stupid, potentially dangerous thing to do. "Full on body language", the _come on have ago if you think you're hard enough_ stance, has no place in our house, any more than it does when we're training.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Sawney,
> I am sincerely confused.
> 
> You asked a question along the lines of "if you challenge your partner in a low key manner" what do you do if they escalate by accusing you of sulking/being a bully?
> ...


Mem, 
Two parts to the answer. 
First curiosity (not just idle): one friend has a wife who does this, out in public. If she pokes him (e.g. belittling), and he says he won't tolerate it (calmly), he gets told either get used to it, or else is accused of being a bully / spoilsport / rude / sulky. 

Second, having seen this it looked like the "weakest spot" in your hypothesis. So, by questioning it, you either
a) demonstrate that it ISN'T a weakness, or b) re-assess and strengthen a weak point point that could come and bite your arse later. Win / win



> That said, common sense as always needs to be the primary driver here. The first law of LTR's:
> 1. Use the lowest impact approach available that achieves the desired outcome.
> 2. Thermal warfare coupled with humour is the most advanced "technology" available in the field of human conflict within a long term relationship.
> 
> ...


It always did More toxic still (IMHO) is when they do 5 above, and you go back to 2-ish (tell them what they did was wrong and why), and they go to 5 and stay there.

The q's I've asked about the thermostat game are the same - what I see as the weak points, and how they are addressed.

BTW, your first post needs to be expanded to roughly 180 pages in about sis chapters, with a preface, epilogue, bibliography and footnotes. It would fly off the shelves:smthumbup:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sawney,
Thanks for focusing on the "weak" spots. Your points are valid and I will revisit the "high end" of the spectrum. The idea is to make things better not start world war 3. I get your point that the more extreme tactics may inflame and that is very much the opposite of what I want so I will (deep sigh) go figure that out. That section as written doesn't have seat belts/air bags etc. 


On a separate note:
The public stuff with your friend is something ideally he would handle with humor. Not self deprecating humor either. Some remarks to consider are below. While looking at the other people in the group: 
1. As you can see my W didn't take her meds today
2. Pardon my "lessor half" she has the non-profane version of tourettes syndrome - just think of this stuff as an involuntary utterance and you will like her more
3. Unfortunately my wife was raised by wolves who, as you can see emphasized "making a kill" but skipped over "social skills 101"

There is a less direct but very effective tactic that also works very well. I think of it as "differential" warfare. Or "high contrast" warfare. It works like this. 
1. Your partner pokes you in public. 
2. You "jump over" the poke. Meaning you quickly initiate a conversation with one or more of the "other" people present. Your tone is upbeat and playful. You make a POINT to engage in a positive manner with EVERYONE present except your spouse. As for your spouse, you simply ignore them. They get no looks/awareness/body langauge that even acknowledge their presence. 

Basically they see you as being engaged/nice to everyone else and ummm totally indifferent to their presence. People quickly pick up on what is happening. Your spouse will and everyone else will. This approach WILL get a reaction. Your spouse may try to force some interaction. And you have to use some judgement. You should not be rude/totally ignore them. On the other hand, you can keep your responses muted and short and then go back to being "fun" with others. 

BUT BUT BUT. ALL of this is predicated on the points Deejo made earlier. You need to be able to differentiate between a light hearted playful poke, intended to start some banter and a mean spirited comment that has no place in a marriage and even less place in a public setting. 

My W humorously pokes me in public. There is a type of "playful banter" that is a hallmark of a loving and intimate relationship. She EXCELS at that. And when I respond in kind, we have a great time and the long term married's around us watch with big eyes as engage in a dance as "old as time". 




Sawney Beane said:


> Mem,
> Two parts to the answer.
> First curiosity (not just idle): one friend has a wife who does this, out in public. If she pokes him (e.g. belittling), and he says he won't tolerate it (calmly), he gets told either get used to it, or else is accused of being a bully / spoilsport / rude / sulky.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Conrad,
Amen to that brother. Menacing is not on my list. 

The less adept folks who read this may not fully get that though. So I am going to revise that section to emphasize how important it is to be careful when using proximity. 





Conrad said:


> I don't think he means "menacing"
> 
> That sounds like what you're describing.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

LMAO.

Another variant that is very short and makes your point.

"I would NOT do that to you". 

And when he explains why his bad behavior is ok. You are silent because you weren't arguing. Simply stating your personal definition of what is acceptable behavior on YOUR part. If he doesn't want to step up you can't make him.



credamdóchasgra said:


> Yes...OR, the response sometimes is "I wouldn't care. YOU have a problem because you care!"
> 
> So instead of asking "would you like it if I...", I just make a statement like:
> 
> ...


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

This stuff works on six year olds, too.

My daughter has a habit of acting out and getting belligerent with me. She's very very determined, and acts out when she feels I'm unfair to her. Kinda like she feels entitled, as much as a six year old can.

I tried everything. Time outs. Yelling. Not yelling. Ignoring her. Nothing worked. Mind you, I love her determination, but she needs to learn not to act like that.

Last night, she had an episode. I just gave her a stern look. Asked her if she talked to her teacher in that disrespectful tone. She went silent and looked at me. I said very sternly, answer me please. Stern, but calm. Not menacing. She said no. Then I told her that she then has no right to talk to us that way. It's very disrespectful. I left it at that.

She was a little angel for the rest of the evening.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> LMAO.
> 
> Another variant that is very short and makes your point.
> 
> ...


I know. It's becoming increasingly obvious that I can't make him step up just by setting an example.
But I'll keep setting an example. I have yet to be pushed on or off the fence, but I know my fence-sitting is temporary.
I'm still not giving in or playing the game.
Last night he got pissy at me because I handed him a towel and a wet pot instead of directly asking him to help in the kitchen.
Then he got pissy when I directly asked him to help in the kitchen.
I left the room.
I'm getting better and stronger every day, so no matter what happens, I'll be ready for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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