# Empathy when its convienant?!



## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

When a persons world is fine, and they are happy, then yes its easier to have compassion and empathy for another person. BUT what if things in your world are not good, you're mad or resentful, then its probably harder to have come compassion and empathy for others in a time of need.

I guess my question is, how can someone have empathy when they want? In other words, lets say I'm upset or mad at someone, for whatever reason, BUT they are having a bad day, I can step out of my own shoes and put myself in their shoes no matter what kind of mood I may be in, and have some empathy for whatever they are going through. Why can some people NOT do this? Just being an a$$ or something deeper going on in their brain?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Some of us (myself included) struggle with empathy. My lack of stems from childhood issues so I have to put forth an effort to have empathy - it doesn't come naturally to me. Therefore if I'm having a bad day it's harder to do. I'll get depressed and I can't get out of my own head long enough to give a crap about someone else. It's easier now after 4 years of therapy but before? Couldn't do it.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Some of us (myself included) struggle with empathy. My lack of stems from childhood issues so I have to put forth an effort to have empathy - it doesn't come naturally to me. Therefore if I'm having a bad day it's harder to do. I'll get depressed and I can't get out of my own head long enough to give a crap about someone else. It's easier now after 4 years of therapy but before? Couldn't do it.


That's me as well.Empathy comes natural for some but for me,I have to remind myself.
I got to where I didn't want to interact with people if I was having a bad day because my lack of empathy was so hurtful to others.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> Some of us (myself included) struggle with empathy. My lack of stems from childhood issues so I have to put forth an effort to have empathy - it doesn't come naturally to me. Therefore if I'm having a bad day it's harder to do. I'll get depressed and I can't get out of my own head long enough to give a crap about someone else. It's easier now after 4 years of therapy but before? Couldn't do it.


Thanks for replying Mavash! I guess thats what I was kinda getting at. I didn't quite understand how it was that some people could not stop their hurting, pain or anger long enough to care for someone else. I have always been naturally compassionate, but I guess I see what you mean how its just harder for some people. 

I just didn't know if it was from a past issue, like childhood trauma, or learned behavior, or what. I mean I have had some rough times as a child too, but still feel I have the ability to be able to be compassionate about another person even when I'm hurting or mad.


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

CallaLily said:


> When a persons world is fine, and they are happy, then yes its easier to have compassion and empathy for another person. BUT what if things in your world are not good, you're mad or resentful, then its probably harder to have come compassion and empathy for others in a time of need.
> 
> I guess my question is, how can someone have empathy when they want? In other words, lets say I'm upset or mad at someone, for whatever reason, BUT they are having a bad day, I can step out of my own shoes and put myself in their shoes no matter what kind of mood I may be in, and have some empathy for whatever they are going through. Why can some people NOT do this? Just being an a$$ or something deeper going on in their brain?


I reach a "full-up" point when it comes to listening to other people's problems. When I am having a lot of my own problems, that full up point gets reached more quickly, and I have a lot lower tolerance for listening to someone complain about, say, them having to clean their own house because their maid took the day off. (bad example probably...this was a recent irritation of mine I had to deal with. After all...most people have to clean their own houses...)

I think maybe some people who are having marital strife, and it's got them pretty near the breaking point, have a lower tolerance for listening to other people's marital strife simply because they are trying to keep it together and not reach that breaking point where they will flip out. 

Or, sometimes, I will be listening to someone who is telling me all their problems (I get a lot of people doing that at work for some reason...guess I'm a good listener) and I can see how that person kind of caused the problems themselves, but the kind of person they are and their MO that I know very well since I've been here and witnessed it for 16 years keeps me from flat-out telling them why they are having the problems they are having, kind of makes it less tolerable. 

Just a couple of suggestions.

Edit: Another idea of mine...

Some people are so sick and tired of dealing with everyone else's bullsh*t when they have so much of their own that they can't handle it anymore. Plus, it is worse when you have someone constantly telling you their problems, then when you try to talk to them they kind of cut you off and start talking about themselves again when you clearly are in need of talking about yours. That is irritating, and can lead to not wanting to listen to their problems ever...because relationships are give/take and if you are constantly the one giving and not able to have that reciprocated...well you know...


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I have way too much empathy, so my guess it's something that's wired pretty deeply into a person. But just like I work to keep boundaries between myself and other people, so that I can function, people with less empathy are responsible for working to make themselves more empathetic. I'd be ideal if I could just give some of mine to people who are short on it.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

DayDream said:


> Or, sometimes, I will be listening to someone who is telling me all their problems (I get a lot of people doing that at work for some reason...guess I'm a good listener) and I can see how that person kind of caused the problems themselves, but the kind of person they are and their MO that I know very well since I've been here and witnessed it for 16 years keeps me from flat-out telling them why they are having the problems they are having, kind of makes it less tolerable.


OH YES this one is HUGE for me.So rather than listen to them I end up tuning them out bc they won't appreciate it when I tell them how they caused the issue and now they're being a victim.That's where my lack of natural empathy really hurts my friendships.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

CallaLily said:


> what if things in your world are not good, you're mad or resentful, then its probably harder to have come compassion and empathy for others in a time of need.
> 
> lets say I'm upset or mad at someone, for whatever reason, BUT they are having a bad day, I can step out of my own shoes and put myself in their shoes no matter what kind of mood I may be in, and have some empathy for whatever they are going through. Why can some people NOT do this?


No one can be angry and compassionate at the same time. Anger is a distancing emotion that separates and isolates. Compassion brings one closer. The short answer is that some of us have more ability to understand our internal state and control it.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> No one can be angry and compassionate at the same time. Anger is a distancing emotion that separates and isolates. Compassion brings one closer. The short answer is that some of us have more ability to understand our internal state and control it.


I can. I can be angry at someone for something they did, but if they were to trip and fall and hurt themselves in front of me, can I put aside my anger long enough to have a little compassion and to show that I care, yes. 

If I'm sad and down and out about something and not in the best mood, can I put that aside or pull myself out of it long enough to be there for someone else who is in need or having a bad day if they need me, yes. 

Parents do this for their kids lots of times.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

CallaLily said:


> I just didn't know if it was from a past issue, like childhood trauma, or learned behavior, or what. I mean I have had some rough times as a child too, but still feel I have the ability to be able to be compassionate about another person even when I'm hurting or mad.


And now that I have a son I see some of this is also personality. We are both for example INTJ's. I'm a scientist by nature not a people person. And there is nothing wrong with that. It takes all kinds of people to make our world great. If channeled properly the world needs people like us to solve problems. I'm a great problem solver because I don't get emotionally involved and am able to be objective.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

CallaLily said:


> I put aside my anger long enough to have a little compassion and to show that I care, yes.


Exactly. Lots of people are not able to do this, mostly because they either don't see themselves as angry or they don't understand that their anger prevents them from feeling compassion


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

Lack of empathy can be a real problem, especially if one person in the relationship has empathy and the other does not. Lack of empathy is sometimes found in different types of mental disorders, or it can also be a learned behavior. I think empathy can be learned with therapy and getting to the root of why one doesn't have it to begin with etc.


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## TryingandFrustrated (Nov 7, 2012)

I think empathy is a learned skill for some. It can come easy if the relationship is a healthy one and both people are happy with each other. When there is tension between my me and my wife, empathy for me is tougher to get out, probably partly out of the resentment of the other person if you think they are neglecting you. When my wife wants empathy from me, it is not always my first go to emotion, which I do need to work on, because I feel that it is another thing that is wanted of me without her caring about my needs and wants. This isn't done intentionally or mean spirited mind you, it is simply that I am unfortunately thinking about her emotions at the time out of resentment and or frustration with the situation.
I can see when I don't give her empathy she gets even more distant that she seems to be already which doesn't help anything.


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

I'm naturally empathetic and compassionate. Empathy is a big deal to me. If I'm in a relationship with someone who does not have it and show it, then it usually will not work out. There are many things I will tolerate, lack of empathy isn't one of them. But thats just me.


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

Satya said:


> I'm another naturally empathetic person, but if I'm honest my empathy has stricter boundaries than it did before my divorce. I have a bit of reservation before I pour the empathy like syrup because I have been taken advantage of, now twice (recently ended a long term friendship with a man who couldn't decide if he wanted to grow up, and he most certainly lacked empathy but was happy to suck up all of mine). Anyway, I'm over all of that, lesson learned 2x over. Still, I find that those who get real empathy from me don't ask for it, whereas I sort of avoid people who are begging for it. There is a big difference between feeling for a person truly struggling against odds and someone playing the woe is me card.
> 
> Now my sister was diagnosed with a disorder several years ago. In her case she was overly, dangerously empathetic. She would start crying for near strangers and their sob stories. She would allow others to project onto her and she honestly believed she was going through painful times with others. She had a lot of therapy and this is not a problem any longer, but empathy is not always easy for people to control and ration. Just something to think about from another side of the discussion.


Was the disorder your sister has based on her being overly empathetic? Of was that just part of it?


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

CallaLily said:


> I can. I can be angry at someone for something they did, but if they were to trip and fall and hurt themselves in front of me, can I put aside my anger long enough to have a little compassion and to show that I care, yes. *Well this is a little different I think. I don't even want to see my enemies physically hurt...even if I sometimes joke about slapping them. No really...it's just a joke guys. *
> 
> If I'm sad and down and out about something and not in the best mood, can I put that aside or pull myself out of it long enough to be there for someone else who is in need or having a bad day if they need me, yes. *Depends on what it is for me, but I can do the same.*
> 
> Parents do this for their kids lots of times. *Yes, absolutely!*


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> And now that I have a son I see some of this is also personality. We are both for example INTJ's. I'm a scientist by nature not a people person. And there is nothing wrong with that. It takes all kinds of people to make our world great. If channeled properly the world needs people like us to solve problems. I'm a great problem solver because I don't get emotionally involved and am able to be objective.


I can definitely tell this about you Mavash! Simply from your posts on here. And I think it's great! The world definitely needs people like you.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Empathy is interesting since many situations are really zero sum games. That is - the amount of blame is fixed so if you feel more sorry for one person, effectively you are putting more blame on the other person.

Before I grew a backbone, I remember whenever I mentioned a conflict with someone, the person that I was venting to would say, "maybe that person 1) forget; 2) never heard you; 3) didn't remember; 4) you get where I am going with this.

I found it really interesting how when venting to someone you thought was a friend of yours, their ability to play devil's advocate was vast.

These days I am not like that. there is a limit on the empathy that I give to those who can't hear; see; remember and so on. there comes a point when people like that might just admit that they simply don't give a sh!t about me....... that's why you forgot that we had agreed to seeing each other last night. Why on earth, for example, should I have to reconfirm commitments already made to me. I don't expect friends to call and remind me that I agreed to meet them for dinner tomorrow might. Why should I put up with that neglect from others.


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

CallaLily said:


> I guess my question is, how can someone have empathy when they want? In other words, lets say I'm upset or mad at someone, for whatever reason, BUT they are having a bad day, I can step out of my own shoes and put myself in their shoes no matter what kind of mood I may be in, and have some empathy for whatever they are going through. Why can some people NOT do this? Just being an a$$ or something deeper going on in their brain?


Lack of empathy is called psychopathy. Psychopaths (antisocial personality disorder) are called intra-species predators because they don't have any intuition telling them to stop hurting people. If they can con you into giving up your life savings, that's what they'll do. They don't lose any sleep over it. Psychopaths make excellent business and sales people. They can screw people with things like extended warranties or $90 HDMI cables, and they don't feel guilty about doing it.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

ShawnD said:


> Lack of empathy is called psychopathy. Psychopaths (antisocial personality disorder) are called intra-species predators because they don't have any intuition telling them to stop hurting people. If they can con you into giving up your life savings, that's what they'll do. They don't lose any sleep over it. Psychopaths make excellent business and sales people. They can screw people with things like extended warranties or $90 HDMI cables, and they don't feel guilty about doing it.


There are degrees of antisocial behavior. Yes I was good in business because of my lack of empathy but I could never "screw" or con anyone. I was just your typical loner who wanted to do my job and be left alone. Don't invite me to lunch, I don't want to attend a baby shower, and I probably don't want to chip in to buy the boss a present either.


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> Empathy is interesting since many situations are really zero sum games. That is - the amount of blame is fixed so if you feel more sorry for one person, effectively you are putting more blame on the other person.
> 
> Before I grew a backbone, I remember whenever I mentioned a conflict with someone, the person that I was venting to would say, "maybe that person 1) forget; 2) never heard you; 3) didn't remember; 4) you get where I am going with this.
> 
> *I found it really interesting how when venting to someone you thought was a friend of yours, their ability to play devil's advocate was vast.* While I agree with most of what you wrote, this struck me. I'm wondering if by playing devil's advocate, the person is trying to let you know you jump to conclusions too much and might need to work on it, or do you feel a friend should always side with you and go along with whatever you are saying? A real friend will be honest with you and if you are jumping to conclusions or not objectively looking at something, they will help you see it more objectively. These days I am not like that. there is a limit on the empathy that I give to those who can't hear; see; remember and so on. there comes a point when people like that might just admit that they simply don't give a sh!t about me....... that's why you forgot that we had agreed to seeing each other last night. Why on earth, for example, should I have to reconfirm commitments already made to me. I don't expect friends to call and remind me that I agreed to meet them for dinner tomorrow might. Why should I put up with that neglect from others.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

DayDream, at some point we have to draw a line in the sand for these things.

For example, I was stiffed by a now ex friend a few years ago. She agreed to go to a concert with me about 4 months into the future. I got the the tickets and then a month before the concert she told me she didn't have much money, she couldn't go with me so find someone else to go with.

In other words, she was stiffing me for about GBP47.

I mentioned this to a mutual friend who said, well, did you offer that she could pay you back, say GBP10 a month. That's fine to suggest that, but we were talking about this several years after the fact. And I still feel strongly that if she wanted to pay me back GBP 10 a month for the tickets, it's her job to make that offer....... not for me to constantly come up with creative ways of problem solving among friends.

This is similar to other situations in which people are being forgiven for not having remembered something and so on. I find it interesting how often the "innocent bystander" wants to forgive the other participant who is not present.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

CallaLily said:


> When a persons world is fine, and they are happy, then yes its easier to have compassion and empathy for another person. BUT what if things in your world are not good, you're mad or resentful, then its probably harder to have come compassion and empathy for others in a time of need.
> 
> I guess my question is, how can someone have empathy when they want? In other words, lets say I'm upset or mad at someone, for whatever reason, BUT they are having a bad day, I can step out of my own shoes and put myself in their shoes no matter what kind of mood I may be in, and have some empathy for whatever they are going through. Why can some people NOT do this? Just being an a$$ or something deeper going on in their brain?


Most of us see an event, and go through the thought>belief>reaction process so quickly that it could be considered "automatic." Few people are consciously aware of their own thoughts and beliefs that they have before they speak. 

We think at a MUCH faster rate than we can talk, so we speak and want to get to our next thought before it's too late. We're self-centered creatures. Shrug. 

The person who can set aside that process from time to time is one to admire, because they're definitely the exception to the rule. I don't think this makes us a$$holes, just human.


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

Some interesting google results about psychopathy and antisocial personality disorder. Hopefully I'm paraphrasing these correctly:

Psychopathy (total lack of empathy) mainly describes a person's thought patterns. A person can be a psycho without acting like a psycho (you can think crazy without acting crazy). You can be a psychopath (predatory banker) without being a criminal. Psychopathy involves being a cold hearted person. Thoughts and actions focus on personal gain with little regard or understanding of how this hurts others. Politicians and legit business men can easily meet the criteria for psychopathy even though they follow the law perfectly. Corrupt politicians and criminal business men can easily meet the criteria as well. A majority of people in jail who meet the criteria for psychopathy also meet the criteria for antisocial personality disorder.

Antisocial personality disorder (not caring about rules) is based on behavior. Antisocial people simply don't care about rules or laws; they do whatever they want. While most psychopaths in jail meet the criteria for antisocial personality, most people in jail with antisocial personality are not psychopaths. Many people with antisocial personality disorder are hot headed and emotional rather than cold hearted. Antisocial people know they're doing something hurtful or against the law, and they don't care. Much of this is learned behavior.

According to brain scans, the thought patterns of psychopaths are related to a lower density of grey matter in the anterior rostral prefrontal cortex and in the temporal poles. This lack of grey matter makes it difficult for them to feel empathy or to understand a situation from the perspective of someone else. Psychopaths don't screw people just to be jerks. Ripping people off by selling them $90 HDMI cables is not seen as "ha I'm screwing this guy so hard!" but more like "I'm not aware that I'm doing harm to someone." This is what makes them so dangerous. A lot of psychopaths genuinely believe they are good people; they don't feel guilty because they really don't think they did anything wrong. 

Now go have fun diagnosing some of the posts on this forum. How many spouses sound like psychopaths?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

ShawnD said:


> You can be a psychopath (predatory banker) without being a criminal. Psychopathy involves being a cold hearted person. Thoughts and actions focus on personal gain with little regard or understanding of how this hurts others.


This is true to a point. Yes before therapy I was a cold hearted person but it had nothing to do with me going after some personal gain. I believe it had more to do with me not knowing how to get my needs met in a healthy manner. My default was yes to hurt others. It was all I knew. Hurt people hurt people certainly applied in my case.

But you are right this is a fascinating topic. I've gone from being a mentally broken person to one who is passionate about studying it in others.


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