# Walk Away Wife



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Interestingly, in light of the two recent long threads on this issue about how to prevent a WAW, I met a WAW last night. Her tale reinforced my position on the matter.

Basically it seemed that there was some concensus that had the LBH only listened, the WAW would never have left.

So my position is that perhaps it was the WAW that did not listen to or at least accept the answer she was receiving. It wasn't necessarily some failure on the part of the LBH, it was just the inevitable differences that arise as two people grow and not always in the same direction.

Rather than blaming the LBH or the WAW, perhaps each would be better off to simply recognize that what happened, happened for a reason. Far better to recognize that reason, than to simply assign blame and say "if only he had listened" or "if only she wasn't so selfish". Each was acting in their own best interests to the extent that they knew how. They may know differently now and may react differently now, but so might you.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

I was a walk away wife.

When I was in the marriage, it was easy to place blame. Hindsight tells me we were a crappy match in the first place. We wanted different things from life, we grew in different directions, and we didn't want to accept that.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

OpenWindows said:


> I was a walk away wife.
> 
> When I was in the marriage, it was easy to place blame. Hindsight tells me we were a crappy match in the first place. We wanted different things from life, we grew in different directions, and we didn't want to accept that.


I was a LBH. Introspection and retrospection has allowed me to see the same things. We were a crappy match at the end. We had raised our kids, but that commonality was now gone as the children had all grown. All that was left was two changed people blankly stairing at each other and wondering WTH do we do now? She was doing the best she could and I was doing the best I could, but it wasn't enough for either of one of us.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

reminds me of the movie with jack nicholson called 'about schmidt'.

nicholson is having a conversation with himself at the beginning of the movie. he has been married for like 34 years or something.

in his head, he says to himself; "you know, i'v'e been with this woman for 34 years, and still, i wake up in the morning, look at her and think 'who the hell is this woman?!'".


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## JustTired (Jan 22, 2012)

I'll be honest & say that I am on the verge of becoming a WAW. No, I'm not cheating. No, I don't have anyone else lined up. I'm emotionally spent.

If hindsight were 20/20, DH & I should have never married or let alone dated. We are a crappy match & had no business getting together. I ignored all the red flags that were waving in front of me (believe me, there were plenty). I accept my role in this marriage....I let myself become his door mat - he walked all over me & he had no respect for me. I let fear & shame "keep me in my place".

Fast forward to now....I'm stronger & no nonsense. I'm no longer afraid of losing him & the shame of divorce is non-existent. Now it's HIM trying to keep the marriage together.



> Far better to recognize that reason, than to simply assign blame and say "if only he had listened" or "if only she wasn't so selfish".


:iagree:

I have to agree with the quote above. Everyone has a role in their relationship. One has to be able to see themselves objectively in order to effect change in their relationships. 

I know where I went wrong and I am sure as $hit not going to repeat that mistake again.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OpenWindows said:


> I was a walk away wife.
> 
> When I was in the marriage, it was easy to place blame. Hindsight tells me we were a crappy match in the first place. We wanted different things from life, we grew in different directions, and we didn't want to accept that.


Wow. 

Good for you for being honest about it. You are a rare gem.


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## DayOne (Sep 19, 2014)

Ynot said:


> Interestingly, in light of the two recent long threads on this issue about how to prevent a WAW, I met a WAW last night. Her tale reinforced my position on the matter.
> 
> Basically it seemed that there was some concensus that had the LBH only listened, the WAW would never have left.
> 
> ...


Very true. It's how me and M'Lady managed to finally sort our sh*t out and try again. Without that happening (in part) I don't think we would have made it. 

It's easy to just assign 'blame'. Get a mental picture of how the other one caused the rift to happen. And conveniently forget any part you had in the failure of your marriage/partnership. 

If you can get beyond that, take the time to reflect, be humble (ahem @jld ), it's possible to start over. Or at least part amicably.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> Wow.
> 
> Good for you for being honest about it. You are a rare gem.


I won't lie, I did a lot of venting about the relationship in the WAW thread, lol.

I could nitpick little things I think he did wrong... but those are just the trees, not the whole forest! But it takes time and introspection to realize that, it's very hard to do when the pain is fresh.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I know a couple back in AZ to whom this same thing happened. She just up and left him the day their daughter left for college, and he of course was devastated. She wasn't cheating, she was just unhappy. 

She did not blame him for her unhappiness, but people sure came down hard on her for leaving without a heads-up. He spent a couple years pissed at her, but recently they have mended fences and are actually good friends again. They are better co-parents than they were as married couple. 

They have both re-married and are a lot happier now, but to me that still doesn't excuse her just walking out and leaving him without prior warning. He says she actually recently apologized to him for springing that on him the way she did and that the way she went about it was all wrong. I told him that was unusual and to count himself lucky. Most women never apologize for things like that.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OpenWindows said:


> I won't lie, I did a lot of venting about the relationship in the WAW thread, lol.
> 
> I could nitpick little things I think he did wrong... but those are just the trees, not the whole forest! But it takes time and introspection to realize that, it's very hard to do when the pain is fresh.


It's funny because he could probably also come up with a list of your shortcomings that would take up a roll of toilet paper. None of us are perfect.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

People often come down hard on WAWs in general. Many will condemn ending a marriage if there's no abuse, cheating, or addiction. I got a lot of flack for leaving (I live in a small Southern town).

People sometimes underestimate the power of deep unhappiness.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> It's funny because he could probably also come up with a list of your shortcomings that would take up a roll of toilet paper. None of us are perfect.


He probably could. More trees in that forest...


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Ynot said:


> I was a LBH. Introspection and retrospection has allowed me to see the same things. We were a crappy match at the end. We had raised our kids, but that commonality was now gone as the children had all grown. All that was left was two changed people blankly stairing at each other and wondering WTH do we do now? She was doing the best she could and I was doing the best I could, but it wasn't enough for either of one of us.


That unfortunately is probably what's going to happen to us. Once the kids are gone there will be no reason for us to stay together.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

jb02157 said:


> That unfortunately is probably what's going to happen to us. Once the kids are gone there will be no reason for us to stay together.


You know, as long as she knows and agrees up front, you and her could actually come up with an amicable split. 

There was a poster on here years ago who came up with a good, amicable divorce agreement with his wife. In fact I think they just went to mediation and had it all worked out long before the kids left home. The day the youngest left they filed. 

And I think they actually remained good friends and even went out for lunch together after attending court for the divorce decree.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

People can fall back in love, if they wanted to actually do some work. 15 hours a week and all that stuff. I don't buy the 'we shouldn't have married part, unless it was a shotgun or arranged wedding. But of course that requires BOTH people being willing to accept the marriage needs tweaking. Thus the whole point of WAWs - they TELL the husband they're unhappy and he chooses not to hear it.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

We managed a civil divorce. There are some sore spots, and he'll probably blow a gasket when he finds out I'm dating now. But we didn't want our kids to be caught in the middle of our mess. They're very young, they shouldn't feel like they have to choose.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

turnera said:


> People can fall back in love, if they wanted to actually do some work. 15 hours a week and all that stuff. I don't buy the 'we shouldn't have married part, unless it was a shotgun or arranged wedding. But of course that requires BOTH people being willing to accept the marriage needs tweaking. Thus the whole point of WAWs - they TELL the husband they're unhappy and he chooses not to hear it.


I agree. It takes both parties willing to fix things.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Ynot said:


> Interestingly, in light of the two recent long threads on this issue about how to prevent a WAW, I met a WAW last night. Her tale reinforced my position on the matter.
> 
> *Basically it seemed that there was some concensus that had the LBH only listened,* the WAW would never have left.
> 
> ...


Did you ask her what it was that she felt he would not listen to her about?

I do think that if we looked at each case individually, some would turn out to be simply cases of people who grew apart.

Others would be cases in which one spouse was clearly not willing to meet the other's reasonable needs/expectations.

It's too broad a topic to just pick one reason that this happens.


.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

DayOne said:


> Very true. It's how me and M'Lady managed to finally sort our sh*t out and try again. Without that happening (in part) I don't think we would have made it.
> 
> It's easy to just assign 'blame'. Get a mental picture of how the other one caused the rift to happen. And conveniently forget any part you had in the failure of your marriage/partnership.
> 
> If you can get beyond that, take the time to reflect, be humble (ahem @jld ), it's possible to start over. Or at least part amicably.


Many such cases have no "cause". But some do. There seems to be the expectation that everything is going to have to be perfect, the planets have to align, etc. 

In my days we called understanding the best quality of a partner, not potential or anything else. Today we expect perfection and woe be to the person who ain't.

To that, add the potential financial rewards of being a WAW vs status quo (or the financial catastrophe depending on circumstances) and you can see that there's too many external influences playing in on whether a spouse walks or not. 

In other words, no WAW's here in McMansion land. The stakes are high enough...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

john117 said:


> Many such cases have no "cause". But some do. There seems to be the expectation that everything is going to have to be perfect, the planets have to align, etc.
> 
> In my days we called understanding the best quality of a partner, not potential or anything else. Today we expect perfection and woe be to the person who ain't.
> 
> ...


There are little to no financial rewards for most women who are WAW. With only about 15% of women getting any alimony at all, and most of those getting about $350 a month, that's hardly a financial bonanza.


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## DayOne (Sep 19, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> I do think that if we looked at each case individually, some would turn out to be simply cases of people who grew apart.
> 
> Others would be cases in which one spouse was clearly not willing to meet the other's reasonable needs/expectations


IMO, that happens more than people are willing to admit. And rather than work on that, the 'why', it becomes 'easier' to look for, find (or invent) 'faults' in the other person. Make them the 'bad guy/gal' rather than look inwardly. 

It takes a strong person to realise they are also accountable for their part in a failed relationship. TAM is (it seems to me) fueled by those who can't (or won't) take that accountability. 

"It came out of the blue", "I had no idea", "WTF just happened?!?!"

Yeeah, no. Sorry, I just don't buy that (for 90% of the stories I see). You chose NOT to see what was happening, right in front of you. So when WAW/WAM happened it came as a 'surprise'. 

In my case, I wasn't surprised. I'd seen it coming, KNEW it was a possibility, but neglected to act. It wasn't until she WAWed I chose to turn it around. Fortunately for us, it wasn't too late. We managed to use the time apart productively. To work, on our selves, then each other. 

So, my 2cents? WAKE UP! Get out of the fog (take that anyway you like) and see what's happening. Before it's too late.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

The issues in my marriage were about neglect, contempt and lack of compassion. This equated to being left to my own devices to handle everything in life on my own, including emergencies, childcare and our entire domestic life. I was effectively alone (with our child) and had only myself to rely on and so, I figured I might as well be _virtually _alone because it hurt less than the alternative. I was/am not interested in blame, it “was what it was” and after all I picked him.

He knew I was leaving as I gave a 2 year warning and kept him informed of my plans toward moving out. His response to this was always along the lines of “do whatever you need to do”. When I left he had a major angry melt-down and once he settled down his explanation for everything was, and I quote “in my mind you are a strong woman with a thick skin that can take things easily” and “I didn’t think you needed any help”.

After all that, he said he had changed and understood what he needed to do differently and so, I agreed to attempt reconciliation. We began dating and doing things together regularly … until I accidentally found out that I was not the only woman he was dating.


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## DayOne (Sep 19, 2014)

Red Sonja said:


> The issues in my marriage were about neglect, contempt and lack of compassion. This equated to being left to my own devices to handle everything in life on my own, including emergencies, childcare and our entire domestic life. I was effectively alone (with our child) and had only myself to rely on and so, I figured I might as well be _virtually _alone because it hurt less than the alternative. I was/am not interested in blame, it “was what it was” and after all I picked him.
> 
> He knew I was leaving as I gave a 2 year warning and kept him informed of my plans toward moving out. His response to this was always along the lines of “do whatever you need to do”. When I left he had a major angry melt-down and once he settled down his explanation for everything was, and I quote “in my mind you are a strong woman with a thick skin that can take things easily” and “I didn’t think you needed any help”.
> 
> After all that, he said he had changed and understood what he needed to do differently and so, I agreed to attempt reconciliation. We began dating and doing things together regularly … until I accidentally found out that I was not the only woman he was dating.


Sounds VERY familiar...

Except the last line. Sorry to hear that. Does kinda put the nail in the coffin so to speak.


Edit, and the "angry melt down". As i said above, I wasn't surprised. Just....in denial.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Ynot said:


> Interestingly, in light of the two recent long threads on this issue about how to prevent a WAW, I met a WAW last night. Her tale reinforced my position on the matter.
> 
> Basically it seemed that there was some concensus that had the LBH only listened, the WAW would never have left.
> 
> ...


I think you missed a critical piece here. If one spouse isn't listening, then there's no chance to address problems and bring them to resolution. The only option is the just deal with it. 

If you can't get past Go, you never progress. Yes, differences matter and it may be that the two people are too different to resolve their issues, but not listening means you never get the chance. That's the hardest part of my separation and why I hung on for the last 6 years of the marriage - I kept feeling like if he would just hear me and try, we would have a chance. But we never could address a single issue directly, so we were doomed to fail.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I think it's very important to ask "open ended" questions .. to reach deeper for understanding each other's side.. anytime even the slightest cold shoulder is given in a relationship to avoid any sort of walk away scenario.. 

And to be honest ..even if it's going to cause conflict... a little conflict is never our enemy... it helps us sort it all out.. to get to the roots...so we can find our peace again.... so one isn't silently growing resentment.. but it always takes 2. or it's like having our hands tied behind our backs... 

If a couple finds themselves just too incompatible... better to get out ...so each can move on & find happiness with another .


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

This thread hits a tender spot with me. I actually told him recently that he missed an opportunity to have a great life with me. I love life. I'm 9 yrs his junior. I'm hard working, passionate, fairly good looking, make really good money, strong, level-headed, etc., etc. I'm the mother of his children. He married into a good family. But all of that wasn't worth working on.

If he had ever ONCE said, "I'm sorry I let being roommates be ok and wanted you to do the same," maybe we would have had a chance. If only he had said, "I want to fight for us." Anything! He let me spin in circles, beg, go on TAM for years, etc. Oh, and don't get me started on what he said about TAM. He thinks anyone who posts on a forum like this has issues so serious that they have nothing to teach him and he won't take any wisdom from anyone here. 

In the end, it really bothers me that I left without ever having the chance to see if WE could work. The answer I had to accept is that I would never know if we could.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> There are little to no financial rewards for most women who are WAW. With only about 15% of women getting any alimony at all, and most of those getting about $350 a month, that's hardly a financial bonanza.


As I said, potential. If the left behind hubby is an associate manager at Wendy's its one thing, but around here in McMansion land there's a lot more at stake. Likewise -also as I indicated - being a WAH can have catastrophic financial impact. 

Due to the variation between divorce jurisdictions its hard to try to come up with general suggestion material. A couple former coworkers both were left behind husbands in Wisconsin. Their wives did quite well... I know others who did not in other states.

Bottom line, where one lives has a huge impact on the WAW decision...


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Some people base their personal boundaries and what they are willing to put up with for financial reasons. That's the same for what people are willing to put up with at work and in life in general. Different people have different priorities. 

Do some men and women stay in crappy relationships so they don't have to risk losing the status quo in a divorce? I'm sure. Maybe you don't care as much if your husband/wife ignores you when you are rich. 

I mean, watching Downton Abbey, that seems pretty damn standard amongst people of a certain level. 

But I think trying to boil down who is willing to leave a relationship based purely on money ignores a lot of stuff, and seems dismissive, honestly.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

If I could ask walk away wives for something, it would be to be clear about what you're doing, why, and that there is no hope of reconciliation when you do that. 

And please, give a husband a shot before then if you can - if he blows it, he can look to that. 

When my ex wife walked, I had zero explanation. It's pretty clear to me now, but I had to come up with all the answers on my own. 

And she played the "temporary separation" card for a couple months when it was never going to be temporary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I've told my H half a dozen times I want out. And each time he's looked me sincerely in the eyes, admitted what he's doing wrong, promised to change it...and within a week is right back where we started.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OpenWindows said:


> *People often come down hard on WAWs in general. *Many will condemn ending a marriage if there's no abuse, cheating, or addiction. I got a lot of flack for leaving (I live in a small Southern town).
> 
> People sometimes underestimate the power of deep unhappiness.


No. People come down on WASs who just get up and leave one day without ever having told their partners beforehand that they were unhappy. Without having given them the benefit of the doubt. See that is cowardice. That is conflict avoidance. 

If I tell my wife "_Honey, I'm not satisfied with our marriage and I have not been for a while, but I want you and I to work on our marriage so I can feel secure in the marriage again_," and I tell her this, at that point she can either get on board with me or ignore me. 

If she ignores me, and she keeps ignoring me, then when I do eventually walk out I can say "_Hey.. I told you I was going to leave if you did not work with me to build a better marriage. You chose to ignore me, so I'm gone_"....

If I do that, then I can leave with a clean conscience because I gave her notice, more than once, that I was going to terminate the relationship if she did not get off her azz and work with me to make things better. 

If I do not give my spouse notice, and I just stew for years letting the resentments build up without expressing them, and then just get up and leave one day, well that is just wrong in every way... because a spouse cannot read your mind. 

You have to treat a marriage just like any other business partnership. You must give notice, and if the partner does not answer your notice or fall in line with what you want, then you announce you will be severing the relationship.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OpenWindows said:


> We managed a civil divorce. There are some sore spots, and he'll probably blow a gasket when he finds out I'm dating now. But we didn't want our kids to be caught in the middle of our mess. They're very young, they shouldn't feel like they have to choose.


What if you find out he's dating?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

turnera said:


> I've told my H half a dozen times I want out. And each time he's looked me sincerely in the eyes, admitted what he's doing wrong, promised to change it...and within a week is right back where we started.


I got the same thing and the next time I would have that big talk with him it was shock, like it was the first time he had ever heard it before. Every time I said it, it didn't matter if it was daily or once a month, he was surprised that I was actually upset enough to leave over it and not just cranky, emotional, nagging, "on my period", at the moment.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

turnera said:


> I've told my H half a dozen times I want out. And each time he's looked me sincerely in the eyes, admitted what he's doing wrong, promised to change it...and within a week is right back where we started.


Because he knows you can't leave, maybe?


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I got the same thing and the next time I would have that big talk with him it was shock, like it was the first time he had ever heard it before. Every time I said it, it didn't matter if it was daily or once a month, he was surprised that I was actually upset enough to leave over it and not just cranky, emotional, nagging, "on my period", at the moment.


Geez - maybe put it in a letter? An email? Make him sign it?!


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## Popcorn2015 (Sep 10, 2015)

Question for the WAWs here. LBH, you can answer it the way you think your WAW would.

Were you still strongly physically attracted to your husband? Would you ever say something like, "the sex was still great, but we had nothing else in common any more?"


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

SurpriseMyself said:


> Geez - maybe put it in a letter? An email? Make him sign it?!


FWIW, and I'm not accusing anyone of anything here, but my ex wife told people for years that that she told me about problems in our marriage for the whole time we were married and I didn't listen.

And I'm sure she feels like she did, and I feel like she didn't.

Maybe you do need a letter. A nice, clear letter with 3-5 simple sentence bullets on it so he gets it.

"Husband, I'm not happy with staying married to you because you're a slob, you don't help out around the house, and you never pay attention to me. I'm thinking about leaving unless you start eating right excercising, doing the dishes every night and picking up your clothes, and we have a date night that you plan once a week."

Or some such thing.

No excuses then. I would have given my life savings for that at the time.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

SurpriseMyself said:


> Geez - maybe put it in a letter? An email? Make him sign it?!


LOL I did that. Put it right on the fridge after having him read it. It was short, simple, to the point. 
I reminded him about it, he says "You always put sh*t on the fridge, I never look at it"

He knew, he just didn't think it was bad enough for me to leave over. He thought I was being cranky, nagging, having a bad day and was just complaining. For him, if he could diffuse the fight by agreeing with me and saying sorry to the point where I'd be happy in the moment, problem over. 

Popcorn2015- I have always been physically attracted to my H. He is just my type, he turns me on just by walking around in his boxers.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> No. People come down on WASs who just get up and leave one day without ever having told their partners beforehand that they were unhappy. Without having given them the benefit of the doubt. See that is cowardice. That is conflict avoidance.


That was not my experience. Most of the people I speak of had no idea what kind of warning was involved. They just knew that there were no black eyes or other women, so clearly I must be after money or a new guy.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> LOL I did that. Put it right on the fridge after having him read it. It was short, simple, to the point.
> I reminded him about it, he says "You always put sh*t on the fridge, I never look at it"
> 
> He knew, he just didn't think it was bad enough for me to leave over. He thought I was being cranky, nagging, having a bad day and was just complaining. For him, if he could diffuse the fight by agreeing with me and saying sorry to the point where I'd be happy in the moment, problem over.
> ...


God, that sucks. Haven't read your story ... Did you leave?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Starstarfish said:


> Some people base their personal boundaries and what they are willing to put up with for financial reasons. That's the same for what people are willing to put up with at work and in life in general. Different people have different priorities.
> 
> Do some men and women stay in crappy relationships so they don't have to risk losing the status quo in a divorce? I'm sure. Maybe you don't care as much if your husband/wife ignores you when you are rich.
> 
> ...


Not purely on money - but like real estate, location seems to play a significant role. 

It's not dismissive to say that if you live in a place like Colorado or Wisconsin and your wife is giving hints, you have way more at stake than if you are in Nevada...


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> What if you find out he's dating?


No problem. I hope he does. He's bored and lonely.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

turnera said:


> I've told my H half a dozen times I want out. And each time he's looked me sincerely in the eyes, admitted what he's doing wrong, promised to change it...and within a week is right back where we started.


And my torpedo approach is wrong because....


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

Popcorn2015 said:


> Question for the WAWs here. LBH, you can answer it the way you think your WAW would.
> 
> Were you still strongly physically attracted to your husband? Would you ever say something like, "the sex was still great, but we had nothing else in common any more?"


For me, the sex was never great. It was good in the beginning, and went downhill. So far downhill that he went 8 years without giving me an orgasm. To be fair, I thought that was all my fault (which is why I tolerated it), until I started dating again and learned differently.

Physical attraction started out good and also went downhill.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

SurpriseMyself said:


> God, that sucks. Haven't read your story ... Did you leave?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Long story short-
Things were super bad from the time I got pregnant
We separated a few years ago for a few months and some things got fixed
Then it started to slip again until they were bad to really bad
I ended up just going between withdrawal and seething rage.

Then he cheated on me for 3 weeks with a co-worker

Then we both decided to try again. Things are ok right now. A dozen major issues are down to 1, sometimes 2 issues.

Some things here and there start to slip and I get really worried about going backwards again.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SurpriseMyself said:


> Geez - maybe put it in a letter? An email? Make him sign it?!


I did this one time. I wrote it all out and had him sign and date two copies. One he kept. One I kept.

Then later he denied that I had ever said anything. So I brought out my copy. He refused to acknowledge it and tried to rip it up.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Popcorn2015 said:


> Question for the WAWs here. LBH, you can answer it the way you think your WAW would.
> 
> Were you still strongly physically attracted to your husband? Would you ever say something like, "the sex was still great, but we had nothing else in common any more?"


Nope, not still attracted at all. Too much water under the bridge for this.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Long story short-
> Things were super bad from the time I got pregnant
> We separated a few years ago for a few months and some things got fixed
> Then it started to slip again until they were bad to really bad
> ...


You must really love him. I hope to hell he feels the same. You are putting all your cards on the table. Is he man enough to do the same (I wonder, and hope for your sake he is).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

SurpriseMyself said:


> You must really love him. I hope to hell he feels the same. You are putting all your cards on the table. Is he man enough to do the same (I wonder, and hope for your sake he is).
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As ridiculous as it sounds, I believe he loves me more than I love him. He's clueless but not heartless. He does love me very much and expresses it in his own way. He'd be devastated if I left him and he also needs me for a lot which would hurt him a lot more than I would be hurt.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> As ridiculous as it sounds, I believe he loves me more than I love him. He's clueless but not heartless. He does love me very much and expresses it in his own way. He'd be devastated if I left him and he also needs me for a lot which would hurt him a lot more than I would be hurt.


I know exactly what you mean. That's what makes it so hard to leave. Because you know all that is true, but you also know that nothing will change. It's hard to face the fact that someone you care about just can't give you what you need. So you hang on, and you hope tomorrow's better. I hope your tomorrow is better.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> It's not dismissive to say that if you live in a place like Colorado or Wisconsin and your wife is giving hints, you have way more at stake than if you are in Nevada...


I live in Wisconsin, so I can only guess that's about this being a joint property state. Which, I could have a whole discussion on life in Wisconsin and the multitude of reasons to stay away even without mentioning divorce laws, so I get that much. 

But that's not where the feeling of being dismissive came from, it was about the Wendy's manager versus McMansion thing. IE it had that whole air of that old hat that women get married and divorced just to make bank. 

Also, I think like someone else mentioned, the constant need to drop hints at how much money you have comes across as a poke sometimes, unintentional or otherwise.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

Popcorn2015 said:


> Question for the WAWs here. LBH, you can answer it the way you think your WAW would.
> 
> Were you still strongly physically attracted to your husband? Would you ever say something like, "the sex was still great, but we had nothing else in common any more?"


The sex was always great when it occurred, problem was we were technically sexless for most of the marriage (not my choice).

Now that I think about it, during our pseudo-reconciliation, which lasted 4 months before I busted him with OW, we had more sex than in the previous marriage. So I suppose that was a bonus for me ... damn but I'm an optimist, .


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

I think there's likely any countless number of scenarios that lead to a WAW situation. And yes, the possibility that the relationship was being held together by a hope and a prayer to begin with is certainly among them. But it doesn't exclude that a situation that was possibly tenuous to start with was made even less stable and functional by choices made by the people involved whether or purpose or by omission.

There seems to be a really visceral reaction to WAW conversations that oddly other conversations about divorce don't really lead to and that's something that strikes me.

Shouldn't people assume if you ignore your spouse and ignore what they tell you at a certain point, they might leave? How shocking, honestly, can that really be? And if it really is that shocking to someone doesn't that in and of itself say something?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Popcorn2015 said:


> Question for the WAWs here. LBH, you can answer it the way you think your WAW would.
> 
> Were you still strongly physically attracted to your husband? Would you ever say something like, "the sex was still great, but we had nothing else in common any more?"


Not at all attracted. Although when he does step up and actually hold up his side of the marital responsibilities once in a while, I do feel attraction for him. And then I'm fed up with him again the next day for having one of his weekly crises wherein he mutters how nobody 'ever' helps him and he has to do 'everything' himself. And I go back to not wanting to be around him.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

john117 said:


> Not purely on money - but like real estate, location seems to play a significant role.
> 
> It's not dismissive to say that if you live in a place like Colorado or Wisconsin and your wife is giving hints, you have way more at stake than if you are in Nevada...


If you are as consumed by money in your marriage as much as you are on this board, I can kinda understand why your wife behaves like she does. Sorry, but you come across as very materialistic and really like to brag ab what you have. FYI, the people that have the most (the wealthiest of us) usually speak of it the least.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Starstarfish said:


> I live in Wisconsin, so I can only guess that's about this being a joint property state. Which, I could have a whole discussion on life in Wisconsin and the multitude of reasons to stay away even without mentioning divorce laws, so I get that much.
> 
> But that's not where the feeling of being dismissive came from, it was about the Wendy's manager versus McMansion thing. IE it had that whole air of that old hat that women get married and divorced just to make bank.
> 
> Also, I think like someone else mentioned, the constant need to drop hints at how much money you have comes across as a poke sometimes, unintentional or otherwise.


I don't apologize for being successful at least in some aspects of my life. 

Considering there are several law firms around here constantly advertising men's rights in WAW scenarios, and judging by the frequency and tone of advertising, I would say the executive guy has a lot more at stake than the Wendy's guy. It's not dismissive, it's reality. 

Money is like makeup, it tends to smooth over many flaws initially then reality sets in.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Did you ask her what it was that she felt he would not listen to her about?
> 
> I do think that if we looked at each case individually, some would turn out to be simply cases of people who grew apart.
> 
> ...


I agree with your last statement, which was the issue I had with the other threads about preventing *A* WAW.

And your post highlights what I have been trying to say but most aren't understanding. In the end it doesn't matter, it could be because the LBH couldn't, wouldn't or wasn't willing. It happened for a reason and rather than try to paint all LBHs as some sort of deaf idiots incapable of understanding whatever the WAW was trying to say.

Yes she did tell me what she felt her STBX wasn't hearing, but unlike many here, she actually acknowledges that perhaps she hadn't heard his answer or at least understood it.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> I think you missed a critical piece here. If one spouse isn't listening, then there's no chance to address problems and bring them to resolution. The only option is the just deal with it.
> 
> If you can't get past Go, you never progress. Yes, differences matter and it may be that the two people are too different to resolve their issues, but not listening means you never get the chance. That's the hardest part of my separation and why I hung on for the last 6 years of the marriage - I kept feeling like if he would just hear me and try, we would have a chance. But we never could address a single issue directly, so we were doomed to fail.


And I think you missed a critical piece here - maybe, just maybe, your spouse did hear you but you didn't like the answer? It was important to you, it might not have been important to him. Your needs weren't being meant, maybe is weren't either. Your post implies that the LBH should be blamed and the reality is, that it was inevitable as each of you were doing the best they could do, It just wasn't good enough for you.
This sentiment is the whole issue I have with those threads, that it is the deaf, idiot LBHs fault for not just bending to the will of the WAW (you know, IF only he had listened). No discussion of whether the WAWs needs were legitimate (and perhaps they were - to her) and no discussion of whether the LBHs response was appropriate (and they may have been - to him).
And again more IF ONLYs.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

Ynot said:


> Your needs weren't being meant, maybe is weren't either. Your post implies that the LBH should be blamed and the reality is, that it was inevitable as each of you were doing the best they could do, *It just wasn't good enough for you*.


That's not quite it.

It wasn't good enough for either of them.

He was trying to live the relationship he wanted, and it wasn't good enough for her. She was trying to live the relationship she wanted, and it wasn't good enough for him.

I think when that happens, the men are more likely to dig in their heels, and the women are more likely to check out.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

OpenWindows said:


> That's not quite it.
> 
> It wasn't good enough for either of them.
> 
> ...


Not to quibble, but the post you quoted was directed towards the person I quoted. I understand it wasn't good enough for either of them, but the poster I quoted seemed to be implying that her issue was only because the other didn't listen. 
In the context of the discussion it actually was good enough for him, as he wasn't the one who left, she did. Therefore it (his response) wasn't good enough for her so she left.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I would much rather an "I'm sorry but I can't do what you are asking" because then, yes I would have my answer. 
It's the "yes, I agree. I will do it" that I fall for every bloody time. 

As much as people will say that a WAW just wasn't clear enough, the LBS needs to be as well. If the answer is no, say no. Don't drag it out forever.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I would much rather an "I'm sorry but I can't do what you are asking" because then, yes I would have my answer.
> It's the "yes, I agree. I will do it" that I fall for every bloody time.
> 
> As much as people will say that a WAW just wasn't clear enough, the LBS needs to be as well. If the answer is no, say no. Don't drag it out forever.


In a perfect world everybody would perfectly communicate with everyone else and we would all understand each other perfectly. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world. So for every WAW who wishes their LBH had listened, there is a LBH who wished their WAW had told them. The simple truth that keeps sailing over the heads of most posters here, is that the messages were sent, they were just garbled in transmission or never received by BOTH parties.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

I think pretty much every WAW/LBH story involves a breakdown in communication. It's almost like two people speaking different languages and getting frustrated because they're not being understood. 

In my case, I spoke Elvish and my husband spoke Klingon. Each of us thought the other's language was made-up and silly, so we shouldn't have to learn it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Ynot said:


> I agree with your last statement, which was the issue I had with the other threads about preventing *A* WAW.
> 
> And your post highlights what I have been trying to say but most aren't understanding. In the end it doesn't matter, it could be because the LBH couldn't, wouldn't or wasn't willing. It happened for a reason and rather than try to paint all LBHs as some sort of deaf idiots incapable of understanding whatever the WAW was trying to say.
> 
> Yes she did tell me what she felt her STBX wasn't hearing, but unlike many here, she actually acknowledges that perhaps she hadn't heard his answer or at least understood it.


(Not sure if I'm a WAW or not)

Well, I can say that I heard my husband's answers. 

For example... 

Me: I'm doing 100% around here to include supporting us all, housework, cooking, taking care of YOUR kids. You are playing on the computer all day. You need to start taking care of your kids and doing the majority of house work. 

Him: You are right. I'm sorry I've been like this. (Then he gets back on the computer. And never does anything.)


Yep I "heard" his answers. The real ones were not the spoke answers. The real answers were his non-action.

Was I perfect? Nope. But I will not agree that I have responsibility for his actions and the end of the marriage. If a person puts in zero. They have the major responsibility of the failure of the marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

How is it communication breakdown when one spouse says something like "I am doing all the housework and childcare and am exhausted. I cannot continue this way. I need for you to pull their weight around here." 

And the other person blows them off. That is not a lack of communication. That is not people speaking different languages. That's someone who does not give a sh!t if their spouse is walking around exhausted from having to do everything.

How is it communication breakdown when a person says "We are not spending time together. Can we please plan time every week for us to do something together?" 

And then the other person says "Yea, sounds like a great idea." But then they never come through. They blow off the dates their spouse tries to set up. That's not lack of communication. Again, that's not giving a sh!t about their spouse.


.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Most failures in communication are done with full view of the breakdown. I don't believe that my wife and I have a communication issue because we can't listen to one another.

We (her more than me but regardless) CHOOSE to not listen. It's not worth our while.

When communication breaks down there's usually a good reason.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> How is it communication breakdown when one spouse says something like "I am doing all the housework and childcare and am exhausted. I cannot continue this way. I need for you to pull their weight around here."
> 
> And the other person blows them off. That is not a lack of communication. That is not people speaking different languages. That's someone who does not give a sh!t if their spouse is walking around exhausted from having to do everything.
> 
> ...


Because if there was good communication, it would look more like 

"Husband, I need your help around the house." 
"Wife, I can't do that. I think that should be your job."
"Husband, I don't agree with that philosophy at all."
And so on from there.

But instead of communicating that, the husband blows her off, and the wife never gets to respond at all to the basic reason why he's not helping (which may or may not be that he thinks it's her job, that's just an example).

Usually, the husband thinks the wife is not communicating her unhappiness well enough, and/or the wife thinks the husband is not communicating the reasons for his behavior well enough. So neither one knows what the h*ll the other is thinking.

I think in a lot of cases, if the husband actually said "I think your needs are unreasonable and I'm not going to meet them at all", we wouldn't see a WAW. We'd see a pissed-off woman leaving. It's a different dynamic. 

And for a lot of these men, hearing "I'll leave if you don't..." is not the same thing as hearing "I'm leaving, because you didn't..." The first phrase doesn't carry nearly as much weight as the second one... but that doesn't make sense in the wife's language, where they mean the same thing.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

john117 said:


> Most failures in communication are done with full view of the breakdown. I don't believe that my wife and I have a communication issue because we can't listen to one another.
> 
> We (her more than me but regardless) CHOOSE to not listen. It's not worth our while.
> 
> When communication breaks down there's usually a good reason.


But many of these LBH are men who WANT to stay married. They love their wife, they don't want a divorce.

That's what makes me want to just bang my head against the wall. 

My H will tell me all the time "I love you so much, I wish I could show you, I wish you could see what's in my head and see how I see you, I wish you knew just how deeply I love and appreciate you"

K. So do the d*mn dishes then!

It makes 0 sense to me. What is the reason for the breakdown in communication? Why do people who love their spouse and want to stay married _choose _to not listen?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SGC, does he understand that your love language is acts of service?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

SGC, you assume they want to stay married. I'm not going to make this assumption.

They may want out just as well but not if they're made the bad guy. If wife WAW's they get the sympathy vote.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

jld said:


> SGC, does he understand that your love language is acts of service?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes and he was all "Wow, that makes total sense" and he didn't just see that what I was asking for would show me love but that's often how I show it too so he views my AoS for him as acts of love.

His LL is Affirmation and praise, that's how he shows it and it does it well and often, he just can't quite get the point that he's supposed to do mine, not his and that giving MORE work to an AoS partner is a big no no. It's like telling the praise-needer that they suck. It's negative points. 

Praise does work really well with him. If he does something good and I praise it well, he'll do it again but it's so hard to get him to do it once, without the nagging to get there, that it doesn't happen often enough that I can use that method.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

john117 said:


> SGC, you assume they want to stay married. I'm not going to make this assumption.
> 
> They may want out just as well but not if they're made the bad guy. If wife WAW's they get the sympathy vote.


Many of them express that they were heartbroken, confused, wish they had another chance, didn't want to divorce. 

I'm sure wanted out just as bad but taking the route of neglecting your spouse for years until they finally give up and leave is a pretty crappy game plan.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Ynot said:


> And I think you missed a critical piece here - maybe, just maybe, your spouse did hear you but you didn't like the answer? It was important to you, it might not have been important to him. Your needs weren't being meant, maybe is weren't either. Your post implies that the LBH should be blamed and the reality is, that it was inevitable as each of you were doing the best they could do, It just wasn't good enough for you.
> This sentiment is the whole issue I have with those threads, that it is the deaf, idiot LBHs fault for not just bending to the will of the WAW (you know, IF only he had listened). No discussion of whether the WAWs needs were legitimate (and perhaps they were - to her) and no discussion of whether the LBHs response was appropriate (and they may have been - to him).
> And again more IF ONLYs.


You don't understand. He wouldn't give an answer. When I would ask him a direct question, his responses would be things like "I don't know" and "it depends" and "let me think about it" and "what do you want me to say." He avoided and deflected and dodged our issues for years. So if that's the best he could do, then he should never have asked me to marry him in the first place. 

He recently admitted that he's on the far end of the emotional connection spectrum - he just doesn't really feel the need to be emotionally connected to anyone. And he thinks I'm on the opposite extreme, which I find ironic since I have no pie in the sky dreams of soul mates or the like. I just wanted to be able to look across a crowded room at my husband and smile and he smile back, knowing that we would be going home together. If that's too much to ask, if that means I have unrealistic expectations of marriage, then maybe he's right. But then, why get married at all if not for love and emotional connection?

He can't look anyone in the eye and tell them he tried to save our marriage, because he didn't. He didn't try. He didn't talk to anyone, he didn't read any books or seek out any advice or even try to talk to me. He didn't do the 18 months of therapy our marriage counselor said he needed. In the end, his answer was just to not go anywhere. He just stayed. That's not the same as trying. 

I am by no means perfect or blameless. As bad as I feel about leaving, I know this: I tried.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> But many of these LBH are men who WANT to stay married. They love their wife, they don't want a divorce.
> 
> That's what makes me want to just bang my head against the wall.
> 
> ...


That I don't understand. 

My truth is, and this is very hard to admit to myself - I don't think he ever loved me. He proposed because he had just turned 40, didn't have kids, and I was his best chance at having what all of his friends already had: a wife and kids. So that's what I was for him. I was a person who could fill the gaps in the picture he had of himself and presented to others. 

But he didn't see marriage as more than that. It was just a next step. I was a next step. I hate even writing that.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> (Not sure if I'm a WAW or not)
> 
> Well, I can say that I heard my husband's answers.
> 
> ...


Yep, the real answers were his non-action. You asked, he responded so you left. Who is blaming you? The WAW who asks, hears the responses and takes action based on that response is just being responsible to themselves. They aren't to blame, but neither is the LBH, because he was also just being responsible to himself. 

Somewhere along the way, the idea that we should all just subvert ourselves for the good of the marriage seems to have taken precedence over the need all of us have to look out for ourselves.

He may have thought his non-action was in his best interest based on his priorities at that time. Later on he may have felt differently, but that is on him. Perhaps in the future he might choose differently, perhaps not. But that is no longer your concern and ruminating about it is just an exercise in futility.

FTR, I don't ever recall saying anyone, especially you are responsible for anyone else's actions. But the absence of blame on your side does not immediately place all of the blame on the other.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

As I was leaving, my XH told me very clearly why he ignored and deflected my requests.

He said that when he knew we had a problem, or he knew I was unhappy, he would ignore that problem until it went away. I was his fixer. I was the person who made problems go away for him. So when I confronted him with our problems, he went back to instinct... he told me what I wanted to hear and then ignored the problem. And when I gave up asking (because I knew I wasn't getting what I wanted), he felt that I had solved the problem myself.

He said he compartmentalized all these little disagreements. He was like, "Good, that one went away. Problem solved." And he put that issue in its little box and threw it on the pile and forgot about it. The day I told him I was leaving was the first time he took a step back and really saw the size of that pile and started to understand what had been happening. 

Those are his words, not mine. And I believe that's exactly what happened.

By the time he saw that giant pile of boxes, I was so far gone that I didn't want to fix it. A little bit of my love and respect for him was trapped in each of those boxes, and I had none left. The only things keeping me there were guilt and obligation, and I couldn't rebuild our marriage on that. And I absolutely positively could not stand the thought of the desperation I was feeling ending up in one of those little ignored-problem boxes.

I was DONE.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> You don't understand. He wouldn't give an answer. When I would ask him a direct question, his responses would be things like "I don't know" and "it depends" and "let me think about it" and "what do you want me to say." He avoided and deflected and dodged our issues for years. So if that's the best he could do, then he should never have asked me to marry him in the first place.
> 
> He recently admitted that he's on the far end of the emotional connection spectrum - he just doesn't really feel the need to be emotionally connected to anyone. And he thinks I'm on the opposite extreme, which I find ironic since I have no pie in the sky dreams of soul mates or the like. I just wanted to be able to look across a crowded room at my husband and smile and he smile back, knowing that we would be going home together. If that's too much to ask, if that means I have unrealistic expectations of marriage, then maybe he's right. But then, why get married at all if not for love and emotional connection?
> 
> ...


As I told EleGirl, his non-action or not answering IS his response. You just don't like that answer. You want the response you were looking for - such as an affirmative answer or concrete action. You didn't get that. Now the choice is yours. Do you take responsibility for your self or do you make accomodations to save the marriage. 

In my marriage I made accomodations and it made me very unhappy over time. I wanted affection, romance and passion. I wanted a woman who wanted to be with me, who looked forward to being with me. I told her these things. She would make some short term effort but then revert back to making everything else in life a priority over me - her job, our kids, her friends, her family. She had answered me, but for many years I didn't hear her answers, and I just kept asking the same question over and over hoping for a different answer (insanity?). 
Was she to blame for me not hearing her answer? Was I too blame for wanting something more? I think the answers to both of those questions are a resounding NO! I sincerely think we were doing the best we could do. I couldn't change her, she couldn't change me. Our bests just weren't good enough for each other. So here I am - a divorced man, free to find what I want as opposed to a married man living a life of quiet desperation trapped in a relationship not meeting my needs.
No amount of regret, guilt or rumination can change what happened. I have no control over my ex-wife's responses. All I can control is my reaction to them. Rather than attempt to find the answer to preventing A WAW and blaming the LBH for not listening. Why not just accept reality, learn the lesson and move forward?


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

Ynot said:


> I have no control over my ex-wife's responses. All I can control is my reaction to them. Rather than attempt to find the answer to preventing A WAW and blaming the LBH for not listening. Why not just accept reality, learn the lesson and move forward?


In my case, I avoided accepting reality for a while because of my children, and because of the obligation I felt for him.

Our problems didn't really become big until after the kids. They were the thing that made it clear to me that we were not a match anymore. But splitting up their family would be hard on them, and I didn't want to hurt my babies to gain my own happiness.

And I had been taking care of XH for so long, I was worried that he wouldn't get by very well on his own (and that would be my fault). It took a lot of mental a**-kicking for me to accept the fact that if a grown man in his thirties couldn't manage to feed himself and pay his own bills, that was his fault and not mine.

I think women sometimes feel a huge obligation and sense of guilt over their families, and that makes it hard to accept that the family is fundamentally broken.


The part you describe, where you accept reality and move forward, is the point where the wife actually walks. It can take her a long time to get there, because all the non-responses don't feel like a "no" to us, they feel like a "maybe". So we think he's telling us "maybe I'll do it, if you find the right way to ask". This is even more true if he's verbally saying to us "I'm sorry, dear. I'll try harder" and then not acting. Women look at the words before the actions, and the man is saying he will try, so we believe him. When we finally ignore his words and look at his actions, we see the truth.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Open Window, there are probably more marriages held together with commitment and obligation than on love. I was there. It didn't make me happy either. 

I was raised that once you committed, you were committed for life, so the thought of leaving never really entered my mind. But I was very unhappy. I was just waiting to die, which is a horrible way to live.

When my ex left, I blamed her for everything that had gone wrong. I wanted to hate her for the rejection and betrayal, but somewhere in the depth of my mind there was this ironic sense of admiration. I actually admired her for being strong enough to make the choice and walking away. That was why I married her - her strength.

Something else, that goes hand in hand with communication, is that your ex may have felt the lulls between threats were also "maybe's" as well. 

If we could prevent what we don't know from happening we would never make mistakes, have accidents or suffer. But we can't. The best we can do is learn from them and try not to repeat them.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Ynot said:


> As I told EleGirl, his non-action or not answering IS his response. You just don't like that answer. You want the response you were looking for - such as an affirmative answer or concrete action. You didn't get that. Now the choice is yours. Do you take responsibility for your self or do you make accomodations to save the marriage.
> 
> In my marriage I made accomodations and it made me very unhappy over time. I wanted affection, romance and passion. I wanted a woman who wanted to be with me, who looked forward to being with me. I told her these things. She would make some short term effort but then revert back to making everything else in life a priority over me - her job, our kids, her friends, her family. She had answered me, but for many years I didn't hear her answers, and I just kept asking the same question over and over hoping for a different answer (insanity?).
> Was she to blame for me not hearing her answer? Was I too blame for wanting something more? I think the answers to both of those questions are a resounding NO! I sincerely think we were doing the best we could do. I couldn't change her, she couldn't change me. Our bests just weren't good enough for each other. So here I am - a divorced man, free to find what I want as opposed to a married man living a life of quiet desperation trapped in a relationship not meeting my needs.
> No amount of regret, guilt or rumination can change what happened. I have no control over my ex-wife's responses. All I can control is my reaction to them. Rather than attempt to find the answer to preventing A WAW and blaming the LBH for not listening. Why not just accept reality, learn the lesson and move forward?


In the end, I did accept that his non answer was his answer and I left.

If a non answer is their answer, do you just take it at face value? Do you keep trying to see if that's really their answer, or no? How long do you wait, if at all? - Weeks? months? If the answer is not going to come, why not just walk away after a few tries?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Ynot, I am sure it is painful to have a wife leave you.

And I am sure it is painful to look at what you might have done to bring that about.

I am not sure why owning up to that, just saying, Yep, this is what I contributed to the loss of that relationship, is so hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SurpriseMyself said:


> In the end, I did accept that his non answer was his answer and I left.
> 
> So.... Lesson to all you wives who can't get through. Stop trying. It will never work. Why even bother. Say it twice and if there's no response, that's it. Walk!!!!!
> 
> ...


Leaving will show you very quickly how much he values you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

Ynot, I mostly agree with the things you've been saying here. But it took me nearly a year after separation to see it that way. I had a lot of pain and resentment to work through before I could gain that kind of perspective. 

And even now, believing that he was doing what he felt was right, it still makes me angry sometimes. I'm sure it makes him angry too. We've still got to deal with each other, because we co-parent our two little kids. The fact that I understand all this helps a bit. But it doesn't change the fact that he still ignores all the fevers and school projects and missing library books, waiting for me to fix them. And I can't fix a missing book that's at his house, so my DD5 has missed library time for 2 months straight. Things like that mean I really do need to understand how to get his attention, because we still have to communicate and work together. I can accept the way he works, but I can't entirely write it off as just his problem. It's still my problem, and my kids' problem. 

But I think I'm digressing now, so I'll leave it at that.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Open Windows, it sounds like leaving him in many ways leaves you with the same problems. But now you have even less influence over them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

jld said:


> Open Windows, it sounds like leaving him in many ways leaves you with the same problems. But now you have even less influence over them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is very true. Shared custody is a struggle sometimes. I have more influence in my own home, and that makes me happy. But I have no power over what happens at his home. He's not obligated to listen when I tell him the kids shouldn't live on Happy Meals and the shows he's letting DD5 watch are giving her nightmares. I'm still learning to navigate this co-parenting thing. When we were together, I just did it all myself.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> In the end, I did accept that his non answer was his answer and I left.
> 
> So.... Lesson to all you wives who can't get through. Stop trying. It will never work. Why even bother. Say it twice and if there's no response, that's it. Walk!!!!!
> 
> ...


Sorry that you are so confused. What I am advocating is that you listen as well as ask. The answers you receive may not be the ones you are looking for and therefore you should be prepared to act in your own best interest.
No one has said you shouldn't ask. In fact you are well within your rights to ask. The only way you will truly know is to ask. But you need to understand that there may be no "getting through" and accept that. 
You can call it a failure on his part if it makes you feel better, but then I think you would be ignoring the reality that perhaps the relationship just wasn't meant to survive.
So far most of the responses to my posts on this topic seem to come from the "blame" camp. What I am saying is that the blame game is not productive. Yes it might allow you to take the higher ground, but it still ignores the bigger reality.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Ynot said:


> Sorry that you are so confused. What I am advocating is that you listen as well as ask. The answers you receive may not be the ones you are looking for and therefore you should be prepared to act in your own best interest.
> No one has said you shouldn't ask. In fact you are well within your rights to ask. The only way you will truly know is to ask. But you need to understand that there may be no "getting through" and accept that.
> You can call it a failure on his part if it makes you feel better, but then I think you would be ignoring the reality that perhaps the relationship just wasn't meant to survive.
> So far most of the responses to my posts on this topic seem to come from the "blame" camp. What I am saying is that the blame game is not productive. Yes it might allow you to take the higher ground, but it still ignores the bigger reality.


How many chances should I have given him? A couple? Then accept that was his answer and walk? If so, my marriage probably would have lasted a year.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

I've said this on another thread, but I think it bears repeating...

If his need is for you to handle everything, and your need is for him to handle things himself... neither of you are right or wrong. You still need what you need, but those needs are not compatible.

Where I differ from Ynot is that I think it's fine if you wanna be pissed off about it. Understanding that truth will help bring you peace, but it won't undo the pain that was caused by feeling ignored. That takes time to get through. Feel your pain, learn from it. And then don't deal with men who have incompatible needs or don't communicate in a way you understand.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

SurpriseMyself said:


> How many chances should I have given him? A couple? Then accept that was his answer and walk? If so, my marriage probably would have lasted a year.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sometimes I wish I had done this. I sure as hell won't let it go for so long again.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

jld said:


> Ynot, I am sure it is painful to have a wife leave you.
> 
> And I am sure it is painful to look at what you might have done to bring that about.
> 
> ...


Haha, that is the thing. I have owned up to it. But what I am seeing here in most of the responses from the WAWs is that it is the LBH who should be blamed for failing to hear, act or some how respond in an affirmative manner to the edicts of the WAW. 
I was acting in my own best interests, when I could no longer accept the situation. So was she. We did what we did knowing what we did at that time. There is NO changing that. 
Going back, heck yeah there are tings I would do differently. Perhaps I would have enforced my own boundaries earlier or better. Perhaps I would have ended the marriage. Perhaps the marriage would have ended years ago or never taken place. But those are all exercises in futility. I can't change the past and neither can any of you WAWs who are posting all the "if only he had listened" tales of woe. Perhaps he didn't listen, perhaps he did, in the end it doesn't matter. You are where you are. Accept it, learn the lesson and don't make the same mistake. I am saying placing blame prevents that from taking place.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

OpenWindows said:


> Ynot, I mostly agree with the things you've been saying here. But it took me nearly a year after separation to see it that way. I had a lot of pain and resentment to work through before I could gain that kind of perspective.


Me too. And I have decided that playing the blame game serves no purpose other than to keep me stuck. If I blame her, I don't have to face my own responsibility for placing myself in that situation. 

If I do that, I can learn and grow. Going forward I will apply the lessons learned. One of those lessons is that nothing is permanent and that especially applies to people.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

OpenWindows said:


> But splitting up their family would be hard on them, and I didn't want to hurt my babies to gain my own happiness.


And THAT is why most stories of WAWs, why what you hear most about, is the woman leaving once the kids get out of school. Obligation and willingness to put one's own happiness on hold to take care of THEM. I did that. By the time DD25 was in 10th grade, my goal was to get her out of high school. Then I chickened out and our money problems were spiraling, so I set my sights on getting her out of college. By then our money problems were unbelievable, so I've just been focusing on that for now.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

Ynot said:


> Haha, that is the thing. I have owned up to it. But what I am seeing here in most of the responses from the WAWs is that it is the LBH who should be blamed for failing to hear, act or some how respond in an affirmative manner to the edicts of the WAW.


I think most of us would have accepted a negative response too. It's the lack of response, or the lie, that messes us up.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Ynot said:


> Haha, that is the thing. I have owned up to it. But what I am seeing here in most of the responses from the WAWs is that it is the LBH who should be blamed for failing to hear, act or some how respond in an affirmative manner to the edicts of the WAW.
> I was acting in my own best interests, when I could no longer accept the situation. So was she. We did what we did knowing what we did at that time. There is NO changing that.
> Going back, heck yeah there are tings I would do differently. Perhaps I would have enforced my own boundaries earlier or better. Perhaps I would have ended the marriage. Perhaps the marriage would have ended years ago or never taken place. But those are all exercises in futility. I can't change the past and neither can any of you WAWs who are posting all the "if only he had listened" tales of woe. Perhaps he didn't listen, perhaps he did, in the end it doesn't matter. You are where you are. Accept it, learn the lesson and don't make the same mistake. I am saying placing blame prevents that from taking place.


I don't think it is uncommon for a woman to expect that the man who asks her to marry him is going to be willing to take care of her, in at least some areas, to at least a certain extent. What I hear in the voices of WAWs is that he was not taking care of her, sometimes at all, and sometimes just not to the level she needed it. All of them seem to have communicated this to the degree they felt able, repeatedly.

A man's not being able to do it is one thing; not even trying feels like something else. I am not going to give a man a pass for not even trying. If there is blame, it is likely deserved.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Ynot said:


> Haha, that is the thing. I have owned up to it. But what I am seeing here in most of the responses from the WAWs is that it is the LBH who should be blamed for failing to hear, act or some how respond in an affirmative manner to the edicts of the WAW.
> I was acting in my own best interests, when I could no longer accept the situation. So was she. We did what we did knowing what we did at that time. There is NO changing that.
> Going back, heck yeah there are tings I would do differently. Perhaps I would have enforced my own boundaries earlier or better. Perhaps I would have ended the marriage. Perhaps the marriage would have ended years ago or never taken place. But those are all exercises in futility. I can't change the past and neither can any of you WAWs who are posting all the "if only he had listened" tales of woe. Perhaps he didn't listen, perhaps he did, in the end it doesn't matter. You are where you are. Accept it, learn the lesson and don't make the same mistake. I am saying placing blame prevents that from taking place.


I get it. And I will get over it. Considering it's been less than 2 months since I moved out, I'd appreciate a bit of slack if feelings are fresh. 

I doubt I'll ever get to your view, though, as I still sincerely believe that you should not marry someone if you are only committed to not leaving. That is all he committed to, and I can never see that as anything other than an unfeeling person who truly should be alone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> In the end, I did accept that his non answer was his answer and I left.
> 
> If a non answer is their answer, do you just take it at face value? Do you keep trying to see if that's really their answer, or no? How long do you wait, if at all? - Weeks? months? If the answer is not going to come, why not just walk away after a few tries?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is up to you to decide. How important is the question - to you?
it might take you a couple of times or maybe a dozen, perhaps a hundred. Only you can decide that. Most people never make a decision and just live unhappily due to obligation, guilt, commitment, fear etc.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

SurpriseMyself said:


> I get it. And I will get over it. Considering it's been less than 2 months since I moved out, I'd appreciate a bit of slack if feelings are fresh.
> 
> I doubt I'll ever get to your view, though, as I still sincerely believe that you should not marry someone if you are only committed to not leaving. That is all he committed to, and I can never see that as anything other than an unfeeling person who truly should be alone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is important. I feel like he's asking you to see your destination, when you've barely started the journey.

Much love, sister. It will get better, trust me on that. Focus on yourself and what you want now. And PM me anytime, if you want to.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ynot said:


> Haha, that is the thing. I have owned up to it. But what I am seeing here in most of the responses from the WAWs is that it is the LBH who should be blamed for failing to hear, act or some how *respond in an affirmative manner to the edicts of the WAW*.


If we change that to WAH, would you similarly agree?

You make it sound like women are dictatorial, unfeeling, uncaring jerks. In all these threads, I haven't seen a SINGLE thing that the WAWs have asked for that was unreasonable or selfish. Helping with chores. Taking care of kids. Paying a bill. Using the word edict tells me you think these women are just selfish, entitled hens expecting to rule their roost. 

And THAT attitude is exactly the problem. That unspoken, or poorly chosen words, that show we ARE treated by our husbands as though our requests - and yes, they are requests, not commands - shouldn't be asked, that we should just take up ALL the work required to keep a family going and stop complaining.

JMO


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

jld said:


> I don't think it is uncommon for a woman to expect that the man who asks her to marry him is going to be willing to take care of her, in at least some areas, to at least a certain extent. What I hear in the voices of WAWs is that he was not taking care of her, sometimes at all, and sometimes just not to the level she needed it. All of them seem to have communicated this to the degree they felt able, repeatedly.
> 
> A man's not being able to do it is one thing; not even trying feels like something else. I am not going to give a man a pass for not even trying. If there is blame, it is likely deserved.


And here we go talking about expectations again. Who's expectations? Your? His? 
So your expectations aren't being met. Guess what? He isn't responsible for meeting your expectation, nobody is responsible for meeting your expectations. Except your self. So the WAW takes responsibility and asks. The LBH doesn't answer, doesn't give the right answer or ignores the question. Now it is up to the WAW to decide.
The big part of the problem of the blame game is seemingly to off load guilt by transferring it to the LBH. What I have been attempting to say is that the WAW should not feel guilt, she was doing the best that she knew how. The LBH also should not feel guilt or be blamed because he was only doing the best that he knew how. 
Keep on blaming, ignore your responsibility to your self and remain stuck if you want to.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

turnera said:


> If we change that to WAH, would you similarly agree?
> 
> You make it sound like women are dictatorial, unfeeling, uncaring jerks. In all these threads, I haven't seen a SINGLE thing that the WAWs have asked for that was unreasonable or selfish. Helping with chores. Taking care of kids. Paying a bill. Using the word edict tells me you think these women are just selfish, entitled hens expecting to rule their roost.
> 
> ...


Actually, I have made no such assertions, those are the assertions made by the female responders here with all the "If only he had listened" posts, as if every need they felt went unsatisfied should have had some validity to him just because she voiced it. So far there has been no discussion of his needs, wants, desired etc that also went unmet, because he was after all just a deaf idiot who should know that his only purpose on earth was to make her happy. It is a two way street and for the tenth time or so, playing the blame game is a waste of time. But if you want to keep on making excuses and avoiding the facing your self that is your problem. 
Had you bothered to read my responses you might understand that.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

I don't see accepting the way he is, and absolving him from responsibility for his actions, as the same thing. But of course, I also have to be responsible for my own actions.

If he knows he won't do something, but lies to me about it to shut me up, I will hold him responsible for that lie, even if he really believed it was the right thing.

And if I believed that lie over and over, I will hold myself responsible for that, even if it felt right at the time.

But that's just the way I feel, I don't expect to convince anyone else to feel that way.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> I get it. And I will get over it. Considering it's been less than 2 months since I moved out, I'd appreciate a bit of slack if feelings are fresh.
> 
> I doubt I'll ever get to your view, though, as I still sincerely believe that you should not marry someone if you are only committed to not leaving. That is all he committed to, and I can never see that as anything other than an unfeeling person who truly should be alone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A year ago I would have said the same thing. I don't think any two people marry thinking I will just give this a try and screw it if it doesn't work out. But the reality is that people change, sometimes together, but over time more often not. 
The needs you had as a 20 or 30 year old are not the same needs you have as a 40 or 50 year old. The person that met your needs as a 20 or 30 year old may not be capable, aware of or willing to meet your needs as a 40 or 50 year old. Nor you theirs. 
Life goes on. Blame someone else or accept reality and take responsibility for your own needs.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

OpenWindows said:


> I don't see accepting the way he is, and absolving him from responsibility for his actions, as the same thing. But of course, I also have to be responsible for my own actions.
> 
> If he knows he won't do something, but lies to me about it to shut me up, I will hold him responsible for that lie, even if he really believed it was the right thing.
> 
> ...


No one said you should absolve anyone of their responsibility. That really isn't even your decision to make. You can only control yourself and your reaction to whatever his response was. You can blame him and attempt to absolve yourself, or you can accept that what he chose did not satisfy your needs and go out an look for a way to fill those needs. You chose to walk away. He can do the same. But sitting here blaming him for not listening or her for not communicating effectively doesn't change what has happened and only serves to keep you stuck in the past.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Ynot said:


> And here we go talking about expectations again. Who's expectations? Your? His?
> So your expectations aren't being met. Guess what? He isn't responsible for meeting you expectation, nobody is responsible for meeting your expectations. Except your self. So the WAW takes responsibility and asks. The LBH doesn't answer, doesn't give the right answer or ignores the question. Now it is up to the WAW to decide.
> The big part of the problem of the blame game is seemingly to off load guilt by transferring it to the LBH. What I have been attempting to say is that the WAW should not feel guilt, she was doing the best that she knew how. The LBH also should not feel guilt or be blamed because he was only doing the best that he knew how.
> Keep on blaming, ignore your responsibility to your self and remain stuck of you want to.


If we don't meet each other's expectations, to at least some degree, the marriage, in this day and age, will eventually dissolve.

I feel like you are trying to avoid responsibility. Is that true?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Ynot said:


> Actually, I have made no such assertions, those are the assertions made by the female responders here with all the "If only he had listened" posts, as if every need they felt went unsatisfied should have had some validity to him just because she voiced it. So far there has been no discussion of his needs, wants, desired etc that also went unmet, because he was after all just a deaf idiot who should know that his only purpose on earth was to make her happy. It is a two way street and for the tenth time or so, playing the blame game is a waste of time. But if you want to keep on making excuses and avoiding the facing your self that is your problem.
> Had you bothered to read my responses you might understand that.


Almost all the WAW stories I have read were meeting their H's needs. They (we) are givers, that was the problem. We were more than willing to meet each and every need he had but didn't get ours met in return. Many started the marriage is full out giving 'till it hurt mode and it eventually wore us down.

It's then that some stopped meeting his needs because we couldn't give anymore. Because if we weren't getting anything back, the only thing we could control was how much we gave. Sometimes sex stops at this point because she has no more emotional connection to him. 

If any one of these LBH had sat down and said, "I understand your need for X. I have a need for Y. Let's make a plan so we both get our needs met" we'd be over the moon. 

If he has unmet needs, say it. We are. Instead of just ignoring it until it slowly dies, they should speak up. If they disagree with what she's saying, say it. If they want to compromise on some things, say it. 

All the men say, "we're not mind readers" well neither are we. 

I often tell my H that ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away, it makes it worse.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

jld said:


> If we don't meet each other's expectations, to at least some degree, the marriage, in this day and age, will eventually dissolve.
> 
> I feel like you are trying to avoid responsibility. Is that true?


Absolutely not. I don't know where you get that from aside from perhaps thinking that if you blame some one esle you don't have to take the blame. I do take responsibility for my actions. They are the only thing I can take responsibility for. 

You have your expectations, but nobody has an obligation to meet them. The oath you took, the vows you made, the marriage license you signed does not obligate anyone to meet them, nor you theirs. 
The fact is that you got married because you had faith that the other would meet your expectations. When reality says otherwise, yes the marriage will eventually dissolve and not just in this day and age, but in any day and age. That is a simple fact of life. Blaming others to absolve yourself of a guilt you should not feel in the first place is a waste of time. Better to accept reality for what it is and move on with your life.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

OpenWindows said:


> This is important. I feel like he's asking you to see your destination, when you've barely started the journey.
> 
> Much love, sister. It will get better, trust me on that. Focus on yourself and what you want now. And PM me anytime, if you want to.


Much love indeed. I wouldn't bother to reply so many times had I not felt a true sense of love towards my fellow human beings. 
I do hope she can see her destination. The only way to get to where you are going is to know where that place is. 
My hope is that her destination becomes a place where she can truly recover and find happiness and contentment in life and that she not succumb to the anger and bitterness that seems to be enamating from the "if only he had listened!" crowd.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

That all sounds nice in theory. But I think if we were people who could so easily accept that, maybe we would have left much earlier. The ones who stay for so long are the ones who naturally have difficulty accepting that. Those who accept it easily never become WAW in the first place... they become pissed-off women leaving a one-sided relationship.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Ynot said:


> Absolutely not. I don't know where you get that from aside from perhaps thinking that if you blame some one esle you don't have to take the blame. I do take responsibility for my actions. They are the only thing I can take responsibility for.
> 
> You have your expectations, but nobody has an obligation to meet them. The oath you took, the vows you made, the marriage license you signed does not obligate anyone to meet them, nor you theirs.
> The fact is that you got married because you had faith that the other would meet your expectations. When reality says otherwise, yes the marriage will eventually dissolve and not just in this day and age, but in any day and age. That is a simple fact of life. Blaming others to absolve yourself of a guilt you should not feel in the first place is a waste of time. Better to accept reality for what it is and move on with your life.


Oh, I agree with accepting reality. But I don't think having expectations is wrong. Do they need to sometimes be adjusted? Yes. But a certain minimum needs to be met.

But again, we are not just talking any old relationship here. We are talking *marriage.* 

I can't imagine being married to a man who says, "Take care of yourself, J! Not my responsibility to do it!" I would not even date a man like that. And quite frankly, he would have no interest in me, either, so it would not even get off the ground.

If you disappointed your wife, I suggest sincerely apologizing for it. Tell her you are sorry you could not be what she needed, and you hope she can find someone who will be.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

OpenWindows said:


> That all sounds nice in theory. But I think if we were people who could so easily accept that, maybe we would have left much earlier. The ones who stay for so long are the ones who naturally have difficulty accepting that. Those who accept it easily never become WAW in the first place... they become pissed-off women leaving a one-sided relationship.


Yep, and now you have a choice - to remain a pissed off woman or to find happiness.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

SurpriseMyself said:


> How many chances should I have given him? A couple? Then accept that was his answer and walk? If so, my marriage probably would have lasted a year.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe it should have lasted a year. For many people this seems to be the answer.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

Ynot said:


> Yep, and now you have a choice - to remain a pissed off woman or to find happiness.


It's not a clear choice for me, it's more of a process. Assigning blame (to both of us) is a part of that process, it ties in with working through the anger. Once that's all settled in my head, i can start working on acceptance.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

jld said:


> Oh, I agree with accepting reality. But I don't think having expectations is wrong. Do they need to sometimes be adjusted? Yes. But a certain minimum needs to be met.
> 
> But again, we are not just talking any old relationship here. We are talking *marriage.*
> 
> ...


Once again,, you are confused. Nobody said that you shouldn't have expectations. only that you recognize that they are yours and yours alone. 
Another point of confusion is the idea that *marriage* implies that all of those expectations are going to be met. Marriages are based on above all faith that they will be. But it is not a guarantee and when the scale tips in favor of unhappiness,, then it is up to the participants to try to fix things. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. 
People date for the same reasons they marry, they hope that the other will satisfy their needs. Overtime, they may realize that some acceptable level of satisfaction is taking place so they marry. Your analogy is simplistic and absurd, because the person that would tell you take care of yourself is not a person you would continue a relationship with (hmm, isn't that why people divorce?)
I did disappoint my ex, she disappointed me as well. We are divorced. The next time we talk, if we ever talk, I will apologize for my part. But I doubt she would understand anymore than you appear capable of understanding.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ynot said:


> Actually, I have made no such assertions, those are the assertions made by the female responders here with all the "If only he had listened" posts, as if every need they felt went unsatisfied should have had some validity to him just because she voiced it. So far there has been no discussion of his needs, wants, desired etc that also went unmet, because he was after all just a deaf idiot who should know that his only purpose on earth was to make her happy. It is a two way street and for the tenth time or so, playing the blame game is a waste of time. But if you want to keep on making excuses and avoiding the facing your self that is your problem.
> Had you bothered to read my responses you might understand that.


See, women are VERY willing to talk. To listen. That's what women DO. It's the talking that historically men are chastised for, for avoiding. If the husband, upon hearing what the wife was unhappy about, wanted to talk about what HE was unhappy about, I'm pretty sure she would have welcomed the conversation. The very description of a WAW is a wife who is ignored. 

And if you read MY responses, you'd see me very often admitting that I was too chicken to move out, or found other reasons to go along, DESPITE BEING IGNORED, thus I have NOT been avoiding facing myself. 

And you didn't address my concern of the word you chose to use and the inherent bias behind the choice of that word. Look at that. Ignored! lol


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

OpenWindows said:


> It's not a clear choice for me, it's more of a process. Assigning blame (to both of us) is a part of that process, it ties in with working through the anger. Once that's all settled in my head, i can start working on acceptance.


It may not be a clear choice now. But I can almost guarantee that if you establish happiness and contentment as your goal, you will work your way thru this process to arrive at the same conclusions I did. In the end you will simply see that you were two people doing the best that you could, right wrong or otherwise, and that blaming yourself or blaming your ex is a pointless exercise as it serves no purpose other than to keep you mired in the past. 
A year from now you may recall this back and forth. Hopefully it will make sense to you then. I know early on all of this would have made no sense to me then.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

This makes more sense to me now than you seem to believe. But I'll continue to advocate for women who are still in pain.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

turnera said:


> See, women are VERY willing to talk. To listen. That's what women DO. It's the talking that historically men are chastised for, for avoiding. If the husband, upon hearing what the wife was unhappy about, wanted to talk about what HE was unhappy about, I'm pretty sure she would have welcomed the conversation. The very description of a WAW is a wife who is ignored.
> 
> And if you read MY responses, you'd see me very often admitting that I was too chicken to move out, or found other reasons to go along, DESPITE BEING IGNORED, thus I have NOT been avoiding facing myself.
> 
> And you didn't address my concern of the word you chose to use and the inherent bias behind the choice of that word. Look at that. Ignored! lol


So many assumptions. Did it occur to you that perhaps he was communicating his dissatisfactions, but in ways that perhaps you didn't understand? 
As to my choice of the word "edict", I would have to say that you must have missed the part of my post that explained my choice of that word:

"those are the assertions made by the female responders here with all the "If only he had listened" posts, as if every need they felt went unsatisfied should have had some validity to him just because she voiced it."

But then that is a perfect example of the type of bias that you seem intent on exercising, since apparently it wasn't communicated to you in the method you were looking for?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Ynot said:


> Once again,, you are confused. Nobody said that you shouldn't have expectations. only that you recognize that they are yours and yours alone.
> Another point of confusion is the idea that *marriage* implies that all of those expectations are going to be met. Marriages are based on above all faith that they will be. But it is not a guarantee and when the scale tips in favor of unhappiness,, then it is up to the participants to try to fix things. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.
> People date for the same reasons they marry, they hope that the other will satisfy their needs. Overtime, they may realize that some acceptable level of satisfaction is taking place so they marry. Your analogy is simplistic and absurd, because the person that would tell you take care of yourself is not a person you would continue a relationship with (hmm, isn't that why people divorce?)
> I did disappoint my ex, she disappointed me as well. We are divorced. The next time we talk, if we ever talk, I will apologize for my part. But I doubt she would understand anymore than you appear capable of understanding.


You were not able to meet her needs, correct?

If it was that, and not just an unwillingness to meet her needs, she will surely understand and forgive you. And really, what is there to forgive? We cannot do more than we are capable of.

She does need to forgive herself for marrying someone she did not vet fully, if it was clear early on, before marriage, that you would not be able to meet her needs.

In my marriage, I don't see it as my responsibility to fix things. I think it's his. I can help, but I think, as does he, that he is responsible for the marriage. He is the one who wanted it.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

OpenWindows said:


> This makes more sense to me now than you seem to believe. But I'll continue to advocate for women who are still in pain.


I understand the pain. But what I am advocating is a destination that will alleviate the pain. Believe me, I did not understand any of this a year ago. I know you have to work thru the pain, the anger, the rejection etc etc. You have to work thru all of your emotions. I am only putting the idea out there. I hope it sinks in at some point. I hope you eventually choose to be a better, new improved version of yourself. You won't get there holding onto the past and playing the blame game. Good luck in your journey, I hope to see you on the other side!


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

jld said:


> You were not able to meet her needs, correct?
> 
> If it was that, and not just an unwillingness to meet her needs, she will surely understand and forgive you. And really, what is there to forgive? We cannot do more than we are capable of.
> 
> ...


Wow! So you don't have any responsibility for your marriage. Did you not agree to marry? Was it some sort of arranged marriage? Wow, just wow!
I am not looking for forgiveness, and it is not my place to forgive her. You seem to be ignorant of the fact that people change. When we married, we met each others needs. Those needs changed over time as we changed. In the end we weren't meeting each other's needs. It had nothing to do with no properly "vetting" each other 25 years ago. That is simply an ignorant statement on your part. 
You seem very naive.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That's not the definition of edict. Edict involves to command or order.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Ynot said:


> So many assumptions. Did it occur to you that perhaps he was communicating his dissatisfactions, but in ways that perhaps you didn't understand?


In what ways would he be doing this? 

I think this is a very interesting conversation because over in the other WAW it kept being suggested that we just weren't saying it right, even though we would say it a million different ways. 

But if he is wanting his own needs met, ignoring ours is not the way to go about it. 
It makes us angry. Angry people don't like to give.

One thing I, and I think many other WAW, tried was the give and meet every need he could possibly have in the hopes that he suddenly develops the desire to give back method. Fill him up with love, he's gotta eventually want to give some of that back, right?
For my H, at the time, it just made him really happy but still didn't give back. 

So how are we supposed to understand that he is NOT meeting our needs because he has his own dissatisfaction if he never tells us that?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Ynot said:


> Wow! So you don't have any responsibility for your marriage. Did you not agree to marry? Was it some sort of arranged marriage? Wow, just wow!
> I am not looking for forgiveness, and it is not my place to forgive her. You seem to be ignorant of the fact that people change. When we married, we met each others needs. Those needs changed over time as we changed. In the end we weren't meeting each other's needs. It had nothing to do with no properly "vetting" each other 25 years ago. That is simply an ignorant statement on your part.
> You seem very naive.


I've been married 21 years myself. No spring chicken here.

The difference between my marriage and yours is that my husband believes he is responsible for the marriage. There is no talk of divorce from him. It is just how we will work our problems out when they arise. 

And he knows that when problems arise, they are usually his fault, mainly for not listening, not paying attention to what I have been telling him.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

turnera said:


> People can fall back in love, if they wanted to actually do some work. 15 hours a week and all that stuff. I don't buy the 'we shouldn't have married part, unless it was a shotgun or arranged wedding. But of course that requires BOTH people being willing to accept the marriage needs tweaking. Thus the whole point of WAWs - they TELL the husband they're unhappy and he chooses not to hear it.


The Golden Rule of English 101 learning to write was that it's the speakers responsibility to make their position understood. The speaker has the responsibility because they have the information that needs to be communicated. The listener has no knowledge of what is trying to be communicated to him/her. Trying to say men do not listen to their wives is simply wrong. Men and women communicate differently. If there is a problem its the speakers fault for not making certain the listener understood the message. 

Men tend to think and do one thing at a time. Women multi task. This adds to communication problems.

The walk away wife BS seems to constantly blame the husband. That's absurd. Another Golden Rule is that everyone is responsible for their own happiness. A friend of mine once said he was not his girl friend's entertainment director.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

JLD's marriage is not a good example for this thread. It is very unique, and seems to work very well for them. 

I value her advice very much, and think she has relevant things to say here... But her specific marriage is unlikely to end as a WAW, and just isn't a good comparison to the other women here.

J, I hope you don't take that the wrong way.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> In what ways would he be doing this?
> 
> I think this is a very interesting conversation because over in the other WAW it kept being suggested that we just weren't saying it right, even though we would say it a million different ways.
> 
> ...


Um, wouldn't one very obvious message come from not meeting your needs? Or perhaps you assumed your actions were filling him up with love? Maybe he was rejected one time too many when he wanted sex, perhaps he had asked for your help doing some chore around the house, maybe he wanted you to be more adventuresome in the bedroom, he asked you to do something with him that he enjoyed, suggested a different vacation, he may have told you in a million different ways. I don't know. As you said, if your needs are getting met, it makes a person angry. Maybe he was angry and not feeling like giving? it is a two way street. 
WAWs all seem to assume he should have "just listened", while using "I didn't understand" as some sort of excuse, which is the exact same thing as the LBH says.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OpenWindows said:


> That was not my experience. Most of the people I speak of had no idea what kind of warning was involved. * They just knew that there were no black eyes or other women, so clearly I must be after money or a new guy*.


I don't understand what you mean. Please clarify. 

Did you tell hubby you were unhappy?

Did you want to work with him on getting the spark back and saving the marriage, or did you just tell him you wanted out?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OpenWindows said:


> I know exactly what you mean. That's what makes it so hard to leave. Because you know all that is true, but you also know that nothing will change. It's hard to face the fact that someone you care about just can't give you what you need. So you hang on, and you hope tomorrow's better. I hope your tomorrow is better.


Or a person just has to admit to her/his self that they were an immature dumbfvck who hurried into a marriage with someone they knew, deep down in their gut, would never make them happy in the long game. 

Hopefully said person has the self awareness to go to the a aggrieved partner and apologize for leading them on and making them waste valuable years of their life.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

jld said:


> And he knows that when problems arise, they are usually his fault, mainly for not listening, not paying attention to what I have been telling him.


Because you're infallible? Wow. That's cool.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Because you're infallible? Wow. That's cool.


I have asked him many times what I am doing wrong. He usually says nothing.

Hard to believe, but he is very happy with me.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

jld said:


> I've been married 21 years myself. No spring chicken here.
> 
> The difference between my marriage and yours is that my husband believes he is responsible for the marriage. There is no talk of divorce from him. It is just how we will work our problems out when they arise.
> 
> And he knows that when problems arise, they are usually his fault, mainly for not listening, not paying attention to what I have been telling him.


Okey dokey - you don't have any responsibility and divorce is not an option, so I have to ask why are you opining on a thread about walk away wives, because apparently your marriage is so peachy that you don't have any worries?


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> Because you're infallible? Wow. That's cool.


Not only infallible but she also has no responsibility for her marriage, it is all on him! Lucky guy! No sharing the load in this marriage!


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> I don't understand what you mean. Please clarify.
> 
> Did you tell hubby you were unhappy?
> 
> Did you want to work with him on getting the spark back and saving the marriage, or did you just tell him you wanted out?


I did tell him i was unhappy. But he was happy with the way things were, and didn't understand why I wouldn't be. So he ignored it and waited for it to go away.

When I told him I was leaving, he asked me a few times if I might just have PMS, so maybe I should wait and see if I changed my mind. I'm not convinced he gave a lot of weight to my emotions when he didn't understand them.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

OpenWindows said:


> JLD's marriage is not a good example for this thread. It is very unique, and seems to work very well for them.
> 
> I value her advice very much, and think she has relevant things to say here... But her specific marriage is unlikely to end as a WAW, and just isn't a good comparison to the other women here.
> 
> J, I hope you don't take that the wrong way.


I really have appreciated your comments on other threads, OW. Very happy to interact with and learn from you. 

I think the only threat to my marriage is my ever being a WAW. Small chance, but really the only one. And I know Dug will step up when he absolutely has to. I just wish it were more important to him to do so. 

I will say though, that I think I often expect too much, and am too picky. I could have made my earlier years a lot more fun if I had relaxed. But I never seemed to be able to.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Ynot said:


> Okey dokey - you don't have any responsibility and divorce is not an option, so I have to ask why are you opining on a thread about walk away wives, because apparently your marriage is so peachy that you don't have any worries?


See post #134. I think every wife has some grievances.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> Or a person just has to admit to her/his self that they were an immature dumbfvck who hurried into a marriage with someone they knew, deep down in their gut, would never make them happy in the long game.
> 
> Hopefully said person has the self awareness to go to the a aggrieved partner and apologize for leading them on and making them waste valuable years of their life.


Sometimes we don't know they won't make us happy. Because they do make us happy, until one person's needs change and the other person doesn't adjust for that. That often doesn't happen until we go through big life changes, like having children or experiencing trauma.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Ynot said:


> Wow! So you don't have any responsibility for your marriage. Did you not agree to marry? Was it some sort of arranged marriage? Wow, just wow!
> I am not looking for forgiveness, and it is not my place to forgive her. You seem to be ignorant of the fact that people change. When we married, we met each others needs. Those needs changed over time as we changed. In the end we weren't meeting each other's needs. It had nothing to do with no properly "vetting" each other 25 years ago. That is simply an ignorant statement on your part.
> You seem very naive.


Wait. Now I'm confused. Do you have a responsibility to your partner in marriage or not? I thought before you were saying you don't. If you do, what are your responsibilities?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OpenWindows said:


> I did tell him i was unhappy. But he was happy with the way things were, and didn't understand why I wouldn't be. So he ignored it and waited for it to go away.
> 
> When I told him I was leaving, he asked me a few times if I might just have PMS, so maybe I should wait and see if I changed my mind. I'm not convinced he gave a lot of weight to my emotions when he didn't understand them.


Okay...you married a dufus. Doesn't mean his love for you wasn't real or sincere. He was just selfish and inattentive. 

Can I give you some advice? That perfect man out there who is attune to every nuance of your feelings and emotions, the guy you think is out there who is a perfect fit...that heaven-sent soul mate? 

He doesn't exist.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OpenWindows said:


> Sometimes we don't know they won't make us happy. Because they do make us happy, until one person's needs change and the other person doesn't adjust for that. That often doesn't happen until we go through big life changes, like having children or experiencing trauma.


OW...what is happiness? What is the definition of happiness to you?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Ynot said:


> Not only infallible but she also has no responsibility for her marriage, it is all on him! Lucky guy! No sharing the load in this marriage!


Look, I am participating, too. I do a lot of what he wants.

But I think when the man chooses the wife, he needs to take responsibility for the marriage. Otherwise he can end up just taking her for granted, and dumping responsibility in her lap.

Most wives I have known have been devoted to their families. A lot bring in money, too. Why should the man have it easy?

I think if more men felt responsible for their families, a lot of women would be a lot happier. It would not be all on them.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> Okay...you married a dufus. Doesn't mean his love for you wasn't real or sincere. He was just selfish and inattentive.
> 
> Can I give you some advice? That perfect man out there who is attune to every nuance of your feelings and emotions, the guy you think is out there who is a perfect fit...that heaven-sent soul mate?
> 
> He doesn't exist.


I am painfully aware of all of that.

I don't believe in soul mates. I believe in compatibility. At the beginning, we had it. At the end, we didn't.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

turnera said:


> That's not the definition of edict. Edict involves to command or order.


Do you mean like "If only he had listened!" the implication being that whatever she had said was expected to be taken as gospel truth? "Change! Or I am leaving" , that shouldn't be taken as a command or order. What about "Satisfy my needs or else!" which is just another way of putting it. Yes if only the LBH had obeyed (which is what the whole idea of "preventing" preventing a WAW is all about) everything would be fine!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Okay...you married a dufus. Doesn't mean his love for you wasn't real or sincere. He was just selfish and inattentive.
> 
> Can I give you some advice? That perfect man out there who is attune to every nuance of your feelings and emotions, the guy you think is out there who is a perfect fit...that heaven-sent soul mate?
> 
> He doesn't exist.


I know I am idealistic. Not that it is a bad thing, but I probably have had some unrealistic expectations.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

OpenWindows said:


> I don't believe in soul mates. I believe in compatibility. At the beginning, we had it. At the end, we didn't.


So just accept that, because there is nothing that can change that.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

OpenWindows said:


> Sometimes we don't know they won't make us happy. Because they do make us happy, until one person's needs change and the other person doesn't adjust for that. That often doesn't happen until we go through big life changes, like having children or experiencing trauma.


One thing Dug said a long time ago is that your partner needs to change with you.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

jld said:


> I know I am idealistic. Not that it is a bad thing, but I probably have had some unrealistic expectations.


Um, no probable about it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Gals, I don't think there is anything wrong with high expectations. Why bother being married if it is not going to be a good deal for us?


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> OW...what is happiness? What is the definition of happiness to you?


In general... Peace of mind. Waking up and not dreading my day.

In a relationship... Feeling heard, respected, and valued. Giving what I can, and receiving what I need. 

Above all.. Balance. I'm a big believer in balance.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Ynot said:


> Um, no probable about it.


He said my expectations have made him into a better man. He thinks men grow through taking responsibility for their marriages. Otherwise they will just be lazy.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> Okay...you married a dufus. Doesn't mean his love for you wasn't real or sincere. He was just selfish and inattentive.
> 
> Can I give you some advice? That perfect man out there who is attune to every nuance of your feelings and emotions, the guy you think is out there who is a perfect fit...that heaven-sent soul mate?
> 
> He doesn't exist.


Nope, but a man who, when you express your needs, either finds a way to meet them or is honest with you that he can't IS. And that's all most of us really want. 

If you think our need for more housework is silly and not important, or you think our need for date nights is fairytale and not realistic, just say so. Or you can go the option of meeting the need anyway because you love us and want to meet our needs. 

Doing nothing while we slowly withdrawal and eventually walk is just a passive aggressive, crappy move. IMO


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

Ynot said:


> So just accept that, because there is nothing that can change that.


Why do you think I haven't accepted it? I don't blame him for the end of our marriage. It died of natural causes. I'm not trying to place blame by stating those causes.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

jld said:


> Look, I am participating, too. I do a lot of what he wants.
> 
> But I think when the man chooses the wife, he needs to take responsibility for the marriage. Otherwise he can end up just taking her for granted, and dumping responsibility in her lap.
> 
> ...


Your naivety and making of assumptions is showing again. I was devoted to my family and to my marriage. I was responsible for my family and my marriage. I was not responsible for my wife's happiness or meeting her expectations.

Perhaps you don't realize how insulting you are? But given the level of your naivety and starry eyed idealism, I guess it is to be expected. Because, I really don't understand your need to chime in on something you obviously know so little about.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

I'd pay to see these same responses posted on the multitude of threads on sex, wife weight gain, or anything else where the OP is male complaining about a wife. 

There is an entirely different attitude given there. That the wife -is- responsible to the husband and the "marriage" as a unit to meeting his needs. And further that not meeting those needs is "abandoning the marriage" and "breaking her vows." There is no question that there is responsibility assumed on the part of a woman who marries to agreeing to meet the needs of her spouse as part of the vows of the marriage. That "people change" is BS and that changing in the sex or appearance or general interest department is purposeful collusion known as "bait and switch."

But over it's entirely different. "People change." "Marriage vows aren't really a promise to love and cherish or stick through rich and poor, etc, I mean people change ...." 

Which just seems like the same old same old. Female complaints are just less valid. It becomes a topicality debate about nuisances and terminology about making sure to label female expressions about personal boundaries or needs as "edicts" and "commands." She's expressing her boundaries and sticking to them. If she were a man, she'd be called "Red Pill" and "Alpha."


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

OpenWindows said:


> Why do you think I haven't accepted it? I don't blame him for the end of our marriage. It died of natural causes. I'm not trying to place blame by stating those causes.


Because you posted this?

"That all sounds nice in theory. But I think if we were people who could so easily accept that, maybe we would have left much earlier. The ones who stay for so long are the ones who naturally have difficulty accepting that. Those who accept it easily never become WAW in the first place... they become pissed-off women leaving a one-sided relationship."

Excuse me if I mistook your post to imply that you had become a pissed off woman leaving a one-sided relationship.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

SurpriseMyself said:


> Wait. Now I'm confused. Do you have a responsibility to your partner in marriage or not? I thought before you were saying you don't. If you do, what are your responsibilities?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @Ynot - hoping you will answer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OpenWindows said:


> I am painfully aware of all of that.
> 
> I don't believe in soul mates. I believe in compatibility. * At the beginning, we had it. At the end, we didn't.*


See...

I think that is bullsh!t. In my mind, what really happens is that two people get complacent, they don't nurture the relationship, they get lazy and they start looking towards their own interests to make up for what they are not getting out of the relationship...because they themselves have stopped investing in the relationship. It's a nasty circle that feeds on itself. 

Marriage is a hard fvcking slog. Very, very few people in this world today have the maturity and fortitude to keep a marriage working over the long haul. You have to really want it first, and then you have to fight for it...every single day.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

Ynot said:


> Because you posted this?
> 
> "That all sounds nice in theory. But I think if we were people who could so easily accept that, maybe we would have left much earlier. The ones who stay for so long are the ones who naturally have difficulty accepting that. Those who accept it easily never become WAW in the first place... they become pissed-off women leaving a one-sided relationship."
> 
> Excuse me if I mistook your post to imply that you had become a pissed off woman leaving a one-sided relationship.


I was speaking of WAWs in general, stating that it is a difficult truth for us to accept. We generally aren't ready to leave until we begin the process of accepting.

I left more than a year ago, I've had time to think about a few things.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Starstarfish said:


> I'd pay to see these same responses posted on the multitude of threads on sex, wife weight gain, or anything else where the OP is male complaining about a wife.
> 
> There is an entirely different attitude given there. That the wife -is- responsible to the husband and the "marriage" as a unit to meeting his needs. And further that not meeting those needs is "abandoning the marriage" and "breaking her vows." There is no question that there is responsibility assumed on the part of a woman who marries to agreeing to meet the needs of her spouse as part of the vows of the marriage. That "people change" is BS and that changing in the sex or appearance or general interest department is purposeful collusion known as "bait and switch."
> 
> ...


So perhaps you've missed the part about neither side being to blame? Or do you just want to rant?
Because I have said a number of times that a WAW shouldn't feel guilt, A LBH shouldn't feel guilt. In the absence of guilt there is no one to blame, there is only the simple acceptance of reality.
In the cases you mentioned, yep the H told his wife she was fat and it bothered him. She decided she wanted to be fat, instead of married. The H said he wasn't getting enough sex, the W said too bad. The W told the H she wanted more help with the housework, the H decided too bad. The W told the H she wasn't satisfied, the H said ok and did nothing about it. One party offered their opinion, the other party rejected it. So now comes decision time. Why should either side feel guilty?
I am sure there are just as many guys who feel it is all the womans fault as there are women who feel it is all the guys fault. 
My message is that neither side is to blame, and therefore there is no blame to be assigned.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> See...
> 
> I think that is bullsh!t. In my mind, what really happens is that two people get complacent, they don't nurture the relationship, they get lazy and they start looking towards their own interests to make up for what they are not getting out of the relationship...because they themselves have stopped investing in the relationship. It's a nasty circle that feeds on itself.
> 
> Marriage is a hard fvcking slog. Very, very few people in this world today have the maturity and fortitude to keep a marriage working over the long haul. You have to really want it first, and then you have to fight for it...every single day.


In my case, he married me because he wanted someone to take care of him. I married him because I thought my role in life was to care for people. And we loved each other, and it worked for a while.

I was very young, and didn't fully understand that caretaker instinct came from spending my childhood caring for my alcoholic mother and her other children. As I matured and developed some self respect, I no longer wanted to be the selfless caretaker. I wanted partnership. But that wasn't what my husband wanted, and it wasn't what he signed up for. So he didn't adjust... partnership was not his need.

In the beginning, it worked. At the end, it didn't. My needs changed, his didn't, and the marriage started to break down. Call that complacency if you want, but that's not the way I see it.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> @Ynot - hoping you will answer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your responsibility to your partner in a marriage extends to the limits of your self. When you attempt to stretch your responsibilities beyond your abilities (ie taking responsibility for your spouses happiness) you find unhappiness. Part of the problem here is that we are attempting to excuse the action of one, by blaming the other for something beyond their control.
My ex had needs as did I. I could not satisfy her needs any more than she could satisfy mine. My attempt to satisfy her needs, in a way that violated who I was, made me very unhappy. 
A marriage is not two individuals who give up parts of them selves to become one, but rather two individuals who come together to enhance the self of the other. 
In the end your first and foremost responsibility is to yourself. If the marriage is that important to your self, you will make accomodations. But eventually those accomodations may lead to the collapse of the self and eventually the marriage.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Ynot said:


> Your responsibility to your partner in a marriage extends to the limits of your self. When you attempt to stretch your responsibilities beyond your abilities (ie taking responsibility for your spouses happiness) you find unhappiness. Part of the problem here is that we are attempting to excuse the action of one, by blaming the other for something beyond their control.
> My ex had needs as did I. I could not satisfy her needs any more than she could satisfy mine. My attempt to satisfy her needs, in a way that violated who I was, made me very unhappy.
> A marriage is not two individuals who give up parts of them selves to become one, but rather two individuals who come together to enhance the self of the other.
> In the end your first and foremost responsibility is to yourself. If the marriage is that important to your self, you will make accomodations. But eventually those accomodations may lead to the collapse of the self and eventually the marriage.


What? Can you name a specific responsibility? 

I'm not understanding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Ynot said:


> Your responsibility to your partner in a marriage extends to the limits of your self. When you attempt to stretch your responsibilities beyond your abilities (ie taking responsibility for your spouses happiness) you find unhappiness. Part of the problem here is that we are attempting to excuse the action of one, by blaming the other for something beyond their control.
> My ex had needs as did I. I could not satisfy her needs any more than she could satisfy mine. My attempt to satisfy her needs, in a way that violated who I was, made me very unhappy.
> A marriage is not two individuals who give up parts of them selves to become one, but rather two individuals who come together to enhance the self of the other.
> In the end your first and foremost responsibility is to yourself. If the marriage is that important to your self, you will make accomodations. But eventually those accomodations may lead to the collapse of the self and eventually the marriage.


So, if a man wants sex three times a week and the wife wants it once a month, does it violate who she is to have sex more than she wants to? And so the man shouldn't expect more than that or else he is violating her as a person?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

Try not to confuse expressing pain with placing blame. My saying "he hurt me" is not the same as saying "he was bad for hurting me". It's just stating a fact as I see it. I felt ignored, and that made me feel unloved, and that hurt very badly. He didn't mean to hurt me, but it hurt all the same.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> So, if a man wants sex three times a week and the wife wants it once a month, does it violate who she is to have sex more than she wants to? And so the man shouldn't expect more than that or else he is violating her as a person?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It may. Only she would know for sure. It may not be that important to her. Everybody is different. But regardless, beyond our selves we have no control. All we can do is ask or offer. From that point our only responsibilities are for our own reactions to the responses we receive. we can only hold our selves accountable. Blaming another for something beyond their control (such as our happiness) is like blaming them for the price of tea in China. It is pointless. And feeling guilty about the price of tea in China is just as pointless.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

So do you feel it's wrong for the LBH to blame his wife for not communicating her needs well enough, or for needing things he can't give?

Does he have a responsibility to acknowledge that it's not going to happen and needs to end, instead of letting her spin her wheels?


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

OpenWindows said:


> So do you feel it's wrong for the LBH to blame his wife for not communicating her needs well enough, or for needing things he can't give?
> 
> Does he have a responsibility to acknowledge that it's not going to happen and needs to end, instead of letting her spin her wheels?


No I don't think the LBH or anybody needs to be blaming anybody else for the most part. Obviously there are some situations where one party or another is clearly to blame such as in cheating or a few other situations. But I don't think most people set out to harm their spouses. I think most marriages just break down. Two people who set out with shared interests, concerns and commonalities, grow apart over time and the marriage no longer satisfies either party. I think given the world we live in this is natural. we no longer live in a relatively isolated communities with limited (and shared) access to the rest of the world. Instead we are seeing the explosion of accessibility that is placing unprecedented tension on the idea of traditional marriage. Like it or not it is where we are as a society. Most of the idea of assigning blame is a throwback to early times, where someone must be to blame for a failed marriage, since they were so rare.


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## Lukedog (Nov 18, 2015)

OpenWindows said:


> As I was leaving, my XH told me very clearly why he ignored and deflected my requests.
> 
> He said that when he knew we had a problem, or he knew I was unhappy, he would ignore that problem until it went away. I was his fixer. I was the person who made problems go away for him. So when I confronted him with our problems, he went back to instinct... he told me what I wanted to hear and then ignored the problem. And when I gave up asking (because I knew I wasn't getting what I wanted), he felt that I had solved the problem myself.
> 
> ...


You have stated that so very clearly. As I said in the previous WAW post, I have for years expressed my unhappiness and had stated the issues quite clearly to him. He would "clean up his act" and do things to appease me for a short time, and then it was back to the same old stuff. He never wants to communicate and talk about anything. If I would say something to him, he would nod his head and agree with me, or tell me now is not the time to talk about it and walk away. And never was the matter brought up again. Every time he dismissed something a little piece of me was ripped apart. How can you not want to take care of your family, your home?? A little love for him, a little respect for him, a little faith in him, also was ripped apart. It has been so long that sometimes I can't even look at him, and I, too, am so far gone that I don't want to fix it anymore. I have nothing left to give.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

SurpriseMyself said:


> So, if a man wants sex three times a week and the wife wants it once a month, does it violate who she is to have sex more than she wants to? And so the man shouldn't expect more than that or else he is violating her as a person?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If there was deception involved, or concealment of true motives and intentions its unacceptable. And by deception I mean the usual pre wedding cake sex followed by... script common in TAM.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> My attempt to satisfy her needs, in a way that violated who I was, made me very unhappy.


I stated this on the other WAW thread, but I'll repeat the concept here.

I think the difficulty is that many women find that concept very difficult to actually put into words or to even conceptualize for a long time, if ever. Because often we are taught from a young age that putting the needs of others before yourself is what makes a "good girl." It's taught in our fairy tales, it's key to our very concepts. That women who go after what they want regardless of the needs or wants of others are "rebellious." Boys who do the same "known themselves." Subjugating oneself for spouse and family is what we are taught to. It's a major tenet of major monotheistic religion. It's socially constructed co-dependency. 

We are taught that our relationships with other people (and more importantly, our husband) is what is supposed to make us happy. 

I think some women honestly never really develop a concept of "self." What is that -they- want? What do they need? Not what do they -need- to do. Not what is -expected- of them. What do they need or want to satisfy who they are inside?

And unfortunately, because of that, relationships and marriages are formed before that self-awareness develops. And as a result, matches are made that might indeed be doomed to fail. 

Men can indeed have the same issue, if they grow up in overbearing situations that don't allow for self-discovery or self-actualization. People who had to take responsibility for other people too young and didn't get to have time to figure themselves out first.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

Starstarfish said:


> We are taught that our relationships with other people (and more importantly, our husband) is what is supposed to make us happy.


Yes. We are taught this, and we believe it. And when it goes against our very nature, our nature rebels. That is very confusing for a young woman. It makes her feel isolated, like there something wrong with her. So she swallows it and tries to do what she thinks is right, until she breaks down.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> If there was deception involved, or concealment of true motives and intentions its unacceptable. And by deception I mean the usual pre wedding cake sex followed by... script common in TAM.


And that's the key issue that was labeled a "rant" before. 

Ynot is saying people change. That people change their needs and wants and that causes people to simply no longer be compatabile. That we shouldn't place blame because there's no one to blame.

But this above suggests that the "common script" about sex is based on deception with poor motives and intentions. (Which honestly, 

how will you ever truly know another persons' motivations or intentions, let alone the guess if the person is conscious of them themselves.)

Are we arguing both things at the same time?

Or are people only deceptive about sex?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Starstarfish said:


> I think some women honestly never really develop a concept of "self." What is that -they- want? What do they need? Not what do they -need- to do. Not what is -expected- of them. What do they need or want to satisfy who they are inside?


Yep. I was wife, mom, sister, daughter. There wasn't any ME. Just me. 

There's some quotes I've related to like "if you're a mom and a wife, you know why mama bear's porridge was too cold" and the 'Burnt Toast Philosophy' Teri Hatcher: Trying Not to Eat Burnt Toast - ABC News

and I think this is how a lot of WAW happen.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Yep. I was wife, mom, sister, daughter. There wasn't any ME. Just me.
> 
> There's some quotes I've related to like "if you're a mom and a wife, you know why mama bear's porridge was too cold" and the 'Burnt Toast Philosophy' Teri Hatcher: Trying Not to Eat Burnt Toast - ABC News
> 
> and I think this is how a lot of WAW happen.


For me, the beginning of the end was realizing I didn't want to always eat the cold porridge and burnt toast, and dammit, I shouldn't have to!!


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

Now that I really think about it...

Dad's porridge was hot because I served him first, and he sat and ate right away. DD's porridge was just right because I put it in the freezer so it wouldn't burn her mouth. Mine was cold because I couldn't sit down until I'd cleaned up a porridge spill, refilled DD's milk, and let the dog out.

Mom life, lol.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OpenWindows said:


> In my case, he married me because he wanted someone to take care of him. I married him because I thought my role in life was to care for people. And we loved each other, and it worked for a while.
> 
> I was very young, and didn't fully understand that caretaker instinct came from spending my childhood caring for my alcoholic mother and her other children. As I matured and developed some self respect, I no longer wanted to be the selfless caretaker. I wanted partnership. But that wasn't what my husband wanted, and it wasn't what he signed up for. So he didn't adjust... partnership was not his need.
> 
> In the beginning, it worked. At the end, it didn't. My needs changed, his didn't, and the marriage started to break down. Call that complacency if you want, but that's not the way I see it.


I think you were attracted and in love also... both of you. No woman marries a man just to take care of him. You were attracted to him, there were aspects of his personality that you enjoyed and liked, and you lusted after him. But, like you say, all that stuff fades within the first few years. 

Don't get me wrong OW, I'm not calling you out or saying that the decision you made was the wrong one, I'm just pointing out that sometimes couples split up over issues that, if they both agree to work on them, probably 90% of marriages can be saved. Wouldn't you agree? 

I just wish we, as a society, could hold our married couples up to a higher standard than we have been. It should be harder to get married than it should be to get divorced. I think all states should require couples who want to marry to go through at least a year of classes or some kind of sanctioned premarital counseling, signed off by a licensed counselor, before they can even file for a marriage license. 

That would give the couple plenty of time to make damn sure they are compatible.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

OpenWindows said:


> Now that I really think about it...
> 
> Dad's porridge was hot because I served him first, and he sat and ate right away. DD's porridge was just right because I put it in the freezer so it wouldn't burn her mouth. Mine was cold because I couldn't sit down until I'd cleaned up a porridge spill, refilled DD's milk, and let the dog out.
> 
> Mom life, lol.


Yep. Even with my youngest being 8 I'm still very lucky if I get a chance to eat a hot meal. Even rarer that I don't have halfway through it before I have to get up and do something again. 

This past Halloween the local mall opened up the stores for trick or treating from like 2-4PM. Once of the stores was a grocery place with quick prepare meals, meats, etc.

There were about 5 or 6 Moms in there with kids waiting to be able to send the kids up to ToT.

One Mom says to her friend "I should pick something up here so I don't have order pizza or something before we go out tonight"
The other Mom says 
"Or you could just get your husband to cook tonight since you're doing all this ToTing"
She laughed, her friend laughed. The rest of the Moms in there (including me) laughed. 

That's so sad but it's the reality that a lot of women are living. 

Honestly, before I came to TAM I never really saw the reverse of this and I know it happens now. The husband who cooks and cleans and takes care of the kids while the wife does nothing. It didn't even enter my mind before. 

A lot of what I was told and what I believed was that "this is just how men are, get used to it" I think that ended up taking a lot of time out of repairing the problem vs. allowing it and building bad habits that were too hard to break.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> I think you were attracted and in love also... both of you. No woman marries a man just to take care of him. You were attracted to him, there were aspects of his personality that you enjoyed and liked, and you lusted after him. But, like you say, all that stuff fades within the first few years.
> 
> Don't get me wrong OW, I'm not calling you out or saying that the decision you made was the wrong one, I'm just pointing out that sometimes couples split up over issues that, if they both agree to work on them, probably 90% of marriages can be saved. Wouldn't you agree?
> 
> ...


Of course caretaking wasn't the only reason we married, but it was a large part of the foundation. And I think we could have fixed it if we both worked on it, but that would mean we had to agree on the problem and the solution. His solution was for me to want less, and mine was for him to give more. I think this is the case with a lot of couples... They're each aiming for a different and incompatible solution.

I only needed one hour and fifty dollars to get married. But I needed one year and $250 to get divorced. I also think that's ridiculous!


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OpenWindows said:


> Of course caretaking wasn't the only reason we married, but it was a large part of the foundation. And I think we could have fixed it if we both worked on it, but that would mean we had to agree on the problem and the solution. His solution was for me to want less, and mine was for him to give more. I think this is the case with a lot of couples... They're each aiming for a different and incompatible solution.
> 
> I only needed one hour and fifty dollars to get married. But I needed one year and $250 to get divorced. I also think that's ridiculous!


I think you did as much as you could do. I don't consider you a walkaway wife. You were a woman who had a lazy husband and got fed up. Both partners have to share the load.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

john117 said:


> If there was deception involved, or concealment of true motives and intentions its unacceptable. And by deception I mean the usual pre wedding cake sex followed by... script common in TAM.


In that case, I feel I was deceived. Before we married, my husband was very supportive of me. He was a great listener when the problems had nothing to do with him. Once we had to work on problems together, especially kid issues, he showed his other side. 

He would also listen to me say to him and others how I felt we were a good match because he was sensible and level headed and I was spontaneous and more mercurial. That we both could learn and grow from the other. Well, he had no intention of growing in that way, but e let me repeat that story again and again. I saw our differences as an opportunity and he let me believe that falsely for years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

OpenWindows said:


> For me, the beginning of the end was realizing I didn't want to always eat the cold porridge and burnt toast, and dammit, I shouldn't have to!!


Just an hour ago I looked at vacancies at our local time share, saw that I could leave tonight and be gone all weekend, and be back in time to get ready for work the next day. And I didn't book it. My first thought was having to deal with H's issues with me leaving and not being around to help him (for which he can then blame me for not ever helping him). My second thought was I haven't even finished 2014 taxes, every room is a wreck, I have loads of laundry to do, dogs need brushed, on and on and on. And so I didn't book it.

But I'm trying to get to the point where I can say I won't eat the cold porridge. I DID contact a cleaning lady who also organizes and we're going to meet so she can maybe help me get control over the house (if I can afford it). And I went to the gym today.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Ynot said:


> As I told EleGirl, his non-action or not answering IS his response. You just don't like that answer. You want the response you were looking for - such as an affirmative answer or concrete action. You didn't get that. Now the choice is yours. Do you take responsibility for your self or do you make accomodations to save the marriage.
> 
> In my marriage I made accomodations and it made me very unhappy over time. I wanted affection, romance and passion. I wanted a woman who wanted to be with me, who looked forward to being with me. I told her these things. She would make some short term effort but then revert back to making everything else in life a priority over me - her job, our kids, her friends, her family. She had answered me, but for many years I didn't hear her answers, and I just kept asking the same question over and over hoping for a different answer (insanity?).
> Was she to blame for me not hearing her answer? Was I too blame for wanting something more? I think the answers to both of those questions are a resounding NO! I sincerely think we were doing the best we could do. I couldn't change her, she couldn't change me. Our bests just weren't good enough for each other. So here I am - a divorced man, free to find what I want as opposed to a married man living a life of quiet desperation trapped in a relationship not meeting my needs.
> No amount of regret, guilt or rumination can change what happened. I have no control over my ex-wife's responses. All I can control is my reaction to them. Rather than attempt to find the answer to preventing A WAW and blaming the LBH for not listening. Why not just accept reality, learn the lesson and move forward?


Ynot you sir have come far

This is the healthiest post you have ever made on TAM

55


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