# WAW needs "Time to Think"... separating.



## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

I've been reading these forums the past few weeks and finally decided to lay my situation on the line for some specific guidance and support! So, thank you in advance. This will be a long post to get you up to speed.

My wife and I have been together for 7 years (I'm 33, she is 29). We did things in the opposite order... We had two boys together (now 5 and 3) and didn't marry until about 1.5 years ago. I also have primary custody of my daughter from a previous marriage (7). I have a tattered past when it comes to relationships. I was married at 20, which lasted less than a year and married again at 25, secondary to "doing the right thing" when she got pregnant. 

My wife and I have shared an amazing 7 years together and built a great life for our family. I have been in my profession for 13 years and she is a 3rd year medical student on her way to being a physician. Obviously, we have very busy and stressful lives. 

Our children have always been number one to both of us and almost all of our time is spent with them, when not working, at school, or studying. We have literally only had a dozen of dates over the last 5 years, mostly due to our schedules and having no family in the area to help with childcare. However, any downtime we have had, we are always taking vacations as a family.

About 6 weeks ago, I was using my wifes phone and decided to look at her text messages. I saw she had texted one of the doctors she had done a clinical rotation with all day and into the night (11:30pm). Nothing of any concern, more of a get-to-know you type of conversation. She is very big on making connections with any doctor that can give a good reference for her to get into a residency program. However, my jealous tendancies towards her male friends took over my mind and I confronted her about it. 

She was very upset that I, once again, had invaded her privacy. We've had several incidents of this sort throughout the course of our relationship. I tried talking to her about it and was met with a wall of anger. She stated that my jealousy was really starting to affect her emotionally, especially now that it was involving her future as a doctor. She made the comment that she felt like since the beginning of our relationship she'd changed who she was as a person to make me happy and had never been fully comfortable around me. Additionally, she said that during the past couple of months she had started to "want something different... noone in particular, just something different". 

I took all of her words to heart, did some soul searching, and let her know that I understood her feelings and that I didn't want to feel "jealous" anymore either. I told her I wanted to start IC to help me cope and better myself. 

The following couple of weeks were a whirlwind of emotions. She would be happy and content one minute and then ice the next minute. I had a surgery scheduled with the same doctor (we'll call him DOC) that I read the text messages from 1 week after all of this began. I had the surgery, all went well, and was on the mend. Spring break for med school was approaching and we had plans to go on vacation for the week. The week before, she informed me that since we weren't leaving until Tuesday, she wanted to 'sit in' on a surgery with DOC on Friday and then spend the day in DOC's office on Monday, so that she could attend another surgery that afternoon.

I did not take this well, because she'd been extremely busy the past few months, and now that she had spring break off, she was choosing to spend two of the days doing more work, instead of hanging with me and our kids. Again, she got very upset that I was impeding on something that she really wanted to do for herself. I agreed that if she wanted to see the cases that bad, then I understood and accepted it. 

The day before we were to leave for vacation, I had to go into emergency surgery for one of the incisions had become infected. I was admitted to the hospital and told I would be there until Friday. We had to cancel our vacation plans, even though both of parents were in town. During the following days, she chose to 'work' with DOC in his clinic office and see surgeries in the same hospital that I was at. She would stop by and see me occasionaly during the day. However, all this while, our parents are at the house with our kids. She was doing voluntary work when she could have been seeing all of them. 

She was in a good mood, hugged and kissed me everytime she saw me in the hospital, but I could tell she was still processing all of her feelings surrounding the issues. I asked her to stay overnight at the hospital on my second day, which she agreed to. During this time, I pushed her to talk to me about what was going on in her head. She conceded, even though she didn't want to.

She informed me that my jealousy was the one 'bad' part of me as a person, but that it had affected her severly. Additionally, she said that the issues we had when we first got together had suddenly popped back in her head. 

7 years prior, during our first night together, she popped the "how many people have you been with" question. I responded truthfully, which was a lot. She told me she'd been with one guy, one time. I commended her. A couple weeks later I found out that she'd lied about her 'number'. I was very angry, mostly because my previous wife had lied daily, so it was an extremely sore flaw for me. Over the next several weeks I questioned, snooped, and questioned more. Things got extremely emotional on both sides at times and twice I tried to leave. She begged me to stay both times. I said several things during that time that I regret... never with the intention of making her feel less of a person... everything hinged, for me, on the fact that she continually lied to me.

Looking back and knowing, now, everything that happened to her as a child, adolescent, and teenager... I can see why she lied. She was very uncomfortable with all that had happened to her and felt the need to hide it. I should have seen that then, but I couldn't get past the lies.... that ate me up and took control of my emotions and actions.

So, at this overnight hospital visit, she tells me she's never forgiven me for what happened. She's always felt dirty, less of a person, and like she deserved feeling that way... when around me. The jealousy just added to her buildup of feelings, until now, where they've spilled over. 

She's stated that she's never forgiven anybody for what they've done to her. That night, she told me she didn't think she loved me like a husband anymore. She was very emotional, apologetic, and non-hostile. She said she thought she wanted a divorce... obviously I was shocked and devestated

A few days later, after getting out of the hospital, I questioned her about there being another man. She denied at first, but then admitted to texting to DOC whom she was now "interested in". I was angry and let her know. She assured me that there had only been texting and that I pushed her to do it... she could 'be herself' around him. 

We talked that night in depth... she basically had an emotional breakdown (she ended up crying for about 24 hours straight following our conversation, while all of our family was in town). The talk was about me wanting to save our marriage and I felt like this was completely out of the blue and she had never 'tried' to work on marriage or issues before. Just prior to all of this, we were like Leave it to Beaver's family. She agreed to cut communication with DOC and to work on the marriage.

The next few weeks, to present day, she has increasingly gotten colder around me. Conversation was dead. She didn't want to talk about our issues. Stated she was glad I was working on me, but she needed to process what was in her head and heart. A week ago, she asked if we could separate for awhile, so that she could have time to think without being uncomfortable at the house. I agreed and suggested I stay at a friend's house, since she is home everynight (I work 24 hour on duty shift work). In the middle of last week she said that she didn't feel right having me leave our home and that she wanted to get an apartment... she went looking this weekend. 

I've continued my IC which has helped me tremendously. She went to IC one time with my C and didn't like him. I set up MC for us and she used the first 2 hour session as IC... she didn't tell me anything about how it went. We have another MC this week.

I've gone from being super nice, doing extra things, giving gifts, to adopting the 180 strategy over the past week. We haven't spoken much at all. We see each other when she 'relieves' me from watching the kids after school. She hasn't discussed how 'custody' will work while she's in her apartment, but we did agree to not date anyone during the separation.

Obviously, she's stressed to the max and pulled in every direction. She has always felt guilty about having to study and not being able to devote more time to the kids... but she's been a great mother. She's always telling me how it's so important that every free moment she gets she wants to be with me and the kids (this is when I try to get her to spend some alone time to herself). Everything has always been about US as a family, but she's been increasingly getting more and more stressed.

Sorry for the EXTREMELY long post, but I wanted to get as much on the table as possible. My wife and kids mean so much to me... this has been very hard and my focus has been on reducing the 'knowledge' of change in my kids heads. So far, they are coping well, but are starting to get sad when I leave every night, instead of every third night (my shift). PLEASE HELP!!!


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## wtf2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

HH, 
Sorry you are here. You are not alone. I have been dealing with similiar isses in my marriage for the past year. My best advice for you is to not appear weak. Do not beg, plead, or try to sell yourself (or relationship) to her. Give her space, but know often WS use separation to see other people (even if they have agreed not to). 

Why are you so jealous? Honestly, good reasons or previous baggage? 

Try to detach. Think about the long game...custody if you eventually divorce. 

Some things in your post make me wonder about her childhood (inability to forgive, hot/cold, can't be herself)

Also what's up with your past? 3rd marriage and pretty young...hopefully you are picking that apart in IC. I know my codependency issues have helped me fall hopelessly in love with some trainwrecks...


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

Thanks for the reply wtf...

IC has helped me a ton in breaking down the jealousy and my past relationship history. In short, I had my own problems growing up that I never talked to ANYONE about... no one, until I told my wife soon after all of this hit the fan. It felt good to get it out and share it with someone. 

The jealousy has a lot to do with not trusting men (my past experiences [molestation, father abandoning me prior to birth, etc]). She has never, until a few weeks ago, given me any reason to not trust her... every snooping incident I've had has resulted in finding notta! She has been completely trustworthy, except for the lies in the beginning of our relationship.

My past divorces were huge mistakes and I think growing up with a mother who was married 4 times made me not appreciate marriage or the commitment neccessary for it. Prior to my current marriage, I had never been 'left'... I always did the leaving. Again, IC is helping a lot!

I hear what you say about her leaving to 'date'... It does cross my mind, but like you said, I need to let go of her motives and thoughts. The 180 I've been doing has really helped me as of late and I haven't balked at all.


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## wtf2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

HH,

Sorry to hear about your childhood. It is hard for me to fathom and I hope you make peace with it.

What about her childhood? Is either one of you a fixer?


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Is DOC married?

Know that your wife is already in a full blown affair.

You need to go into full research mode w/o tipping off your hand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

This has nothing to do with your jealousy.

You are being Gaslighted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

wtf: 

I am slowly coming to peace with what happened to me. I now wish I'd been man enough to get it out sooner and been able to lay it to bed long ago, but such is life.

W's childhood is tattered with the same... several molestations, family problems between her and her parents, etc. She's never 'dealt' with any of this... admittedly. Again, she's a self-stated pessimist and has never forgiven anyone... it's not 'in her' to do that.

ReGroup:

DOC is not married... I'm not sure of he is divorced or eternally single. He's a 52 year old guy that is not attractive at all. 

I hear what you say about a full-blown affair... that is a possibilty, but I know her schedule and such... she doesn't have hardly any free time to do anything... however, I will concede that there is that possibility.

Again, thanks for the input guys... keep it coming!


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

Something that has me scratching my head is anytime we've talked about the DOC and text messages, she makes it a point to clarify that "nothing has ever happened aside from the texting".

If she's as detached as she acts, why would she keep pushing that information?


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> This has nothing to do with your jealousy.
> 
> You are being Gaslighted.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Gaslighted???


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

Wtf:

I am and always have been a 'fixer'... the eternal optimist. I've always tried to de-stress her or help her cope with her inability to forgive. There have been several situations over the years where someone 'wronged' her, nothing terrible, but she's held those grudges for years.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Originally Posted by lordmayhem:


Common Terms/Phrases About Infidelity

Gaslighting - Named after a play and 1944 film with Ingrid Bergman. Gaslighting is when the WS will make their BS doubt their own memory and make them feel crazy for believing what would be obvious to most. The BS will want to believe their spouse so much that the WS will be able lie and twist things around so much that the BS will question themselves and feel guilty for making accusations or spying, even when the proof is next to undeniable. This is why most will recommend that the BS obtain irrefutable proof of the affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

This has nothing to do with you and EVERYTHING to do with her.

Start snooping and figure out what what's going on.

Don't tip off your hand until you gather enough evidence.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

This has nothing to do with you and EVERYTHING to do with her.

Start snooping and figure out what truly is going on.

Don't tip off your hand until you gather enough evidence.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wtf2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

It sounds as if your wife might be Borderline. There is a poster here named uptown who has posted lots of good info about BPD. You may want to look into it. If that is the case, your tribulations are far from over, so the long game is important. You need to be working out. Do your best to prepare for divorce. don't freak out, you will probably have alot of time before anything is final or decided. If her sleeping with DOC is a deal breaker for you, I would advise consulting a lawyer. You probably want to do that anyway. It doesn't matter what DOC looks like to you...he is a surgeon so he has a pretty high SMV anyway. Plus with damaged childhoods it often as much pyschological as physical. Nothing has happened...irl?...that you should know about...that hasn't happened before...but I want it to. sounds like a half truth to me.


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

Ahh... gaslighting! Very nice ReGroup.

I would love to have some intel as to what's going on, however, I have no access to her phone (we are separated) and we don't know each others passwords to things...

Suggestions?!?


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Do you have access to her car?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

Given my knowledge of BPD and bi-polar disorder, along with knowing her for 7 years, I don't think a major psychological disorder like that fits. I do, however, believe she has a high level anxiety disorder that has increased over the last year or so... possibly some mild depression.

I see your point about looks... they obviously have a lot in common and the surgeon thing helps. At this point, R would still be possible if a PA was going on, though it would take some heavy lifting on her part. I plan to address the possibility directly in MC this week.

Believe it or not, I am staying pretty sane right now. I had some seriously bad thoughts and low times over the past few weeks, but after reading on TAM and learning of the 180, I feel empowered and more at ease. Don't get me wrong, I spend all day thinking and reading everything I can get my hands on, but I'm coping well... I believe.

I have always been a gym rat and I have several extracurriculars, so staying fit and busy isn't a problem... I'm very involved with my kids as well. That's the hardest thing to deal with right now... the uncertainty of what will happen to them if this goes any further south. My kids are addicted to me, as I am to them. I spend 2 out of 3 days hanging out with them 24/7... they're always with me. 

The possibility that W will get a residency out-of-state and have to move scares the **** out of me... she'll be working 80+ hours a week the first two years. Together, we could handle it in stride knowing I would always be there... now, what a cluster f$%k!

Question: Everytime we 'relieve' each other from _childcare duties_, she gives me a hug. Should I, per 180, snub or avoid this?!?


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

Regroup... yes to the car.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Voice Activated Recorder under her car seat and you'll know everything their needs to be known in a couple of days.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> Voice Activated Recorder under her car seat and you'll know everything their needs to be known in a couple of days.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for the info... It seems a little extreme, but I suppose if there was a ever a reason to be extreme, this is it.

Never heard of one. Suggestion on type/brand? There seems to be a lot.


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## wtf2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

HelplesslyHopeful said:


> Given my knowledge of BPD and bi-polar disorder, along with knowing her for 7 years, I don't think a major psychological disorder like that fits. I do, however, believe she has a high level anxiety disorder that has increased over the last year or so... possibly some mild depression.
> 
> I see your point about looks... they obviously have a lot in common and the surgeon thing helps. At this point, R would still be possible if a PA was going on, though it would take some heavy lifting on her part. I plan to address the possibility directly in MC this week.
> 
> ...



Ok from what you have said about your kids, you need to consult an attorney yesterday. For example, in the state I live, if one parent has more than 60%custody, it is presumed that the children will move with that parent even out of state. You can petition but presumption is with majority parent. What you do now could set a precedent. Cover your a$$!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

Wtf: 

I'm with you on the custody situation. I have started a log, as of last week, detailing what time I have the kids versus her. With her moving into an apartment, her time will be cut down even more.

The crazy thing... she has ALWAYS been an extremely good Mom. I mentioned her always feeling guilty for not having the time to spend like she did when they were young (she spent 2 years solid being SAHM, basically). It's crazy to me to see her 'give up' more time with them.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

I'm not sure about further snooping. I am surprised I am saying that, considering my wife's EA a few years ago, and how convinced I am snooping saved my marriage and was entirely justified. (Maybe I'm just gullible, so be skeptical of my advice!)

I think, logically, a bit of snooping from time to time into communication contacts is respectable and potentially healthy. It's not like you read her diary. It also doesn't sound like you are trying to control her. It sounds like you are simply afraid to lose her, and you crave to know she is not deceiving you in ways even the best of us are capable of in the right foggy and hurting circumstances. But, it doesn't matter what I think. It clearly felt violating to her.

So far, you have caught her in no lies designed to hide contact during your relationship. (Maybe I missed it.). If you had, then that is a different story.

I'm just worried that if you get caught snooping in such a big way now, she will not be able to forgive you. You are separated, perhaps partly because she fears she is losing the ability to maintain healthy boundaries.


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> I'm not sure about further snooping. I am surprised I am saying that, considering my wife's EA a few years ago, and how convinced I am snooping saved my marriage and was entirely justified. (Maybe I'm just gullible, so be skeptical of my advice!)
> 
> I think, logically, a bit of snooping from time to time into communication contacts is respectable and potentially healthy. It's not like you read her diary. It also doesn't sound like you are trying to control her. It sounds like you are simply afraid to lose her, and you crave to know she is not deceiving you in ways even the best of us are capable of in the right foggy and hurting circumstances. But, it doesn't matter what I think. It clearly felt violating to her.
> 
> ...


Piece:

Thanks for your point of view. You're right, in that I'd never 'caught' her in any lies or deceitful behaviour, except for the very beginning of our relationship. That, however, was her just being ashamed of who she was (which wasn't bad at all... her history is far less than any woman I've ever known).

My jealousy doesn't stem from her or her behaviours. It stems from me and my past... something that the IC is helping me with. She has been an exceptional wife up until when all of this blew up. 

I agree with you, though, about the extreme snooping. The more I've sat here and thought about it, the more I feel bad about doing it. If ever caught, she would definitely not be able to cope with that. 

However, how do I handle confirming whether the 'brief' EA hasn't turned into a PA? I do think that it will come out in MC, eventually. To me, the sooner the better, so that it can be dealt with...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

HelplesslyHopeful said:


> Ahh... gaslighting! Very nice ReGroup.
> 
> I would love to have some intel as to what's going on, however, I have no access to her phone (we are separated) and we don't know each others passwords to things...
> 
> Suggestions?!?


Put a voice activated recorder under the seat of her car.

You'll know within 24-48 hours.

Tell your counselor you're highly codependent and need to work on it.


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

Thanks Conrad... I'll put some more thought into the risk/benefit analysis for my situation and will keep y'all posted.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

HelplesslyHopeful said:


> Thanks Conrad... I'll put some more thought into the risk/benefit analysis for my situation and will keep y'all posted.


To be effective in this, you simply have to know what you are up against.

Don't fall in the trap of thinking that he's old and ugly, so she "didn't have time"

If she wanted to, she did.


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

I follow what you're saying Conrad... cuts deep to think about my 'great' wife doing something like this, but the cards have been dealt now... I need to play my best hand. Thanks for the advice.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

HelplesslyHopeful said:


> I follow what you're saying Conrad... cuts deep to think about my 'great' wife doing something like this, but the cards have been dealt now... I need to play my best hand. Thanks for the advice.


Don't let your delusions about her overpower reality.

With her childhood, she likely has many issues.

Her vigorous defensiveness and lies about other men mean something. Find out what it means.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

I would not know what to do. My guess there are many here who are highly skilled at detecting warning signs of EA and PA. For me, the hard part is figuring out who is speaking some tried and true wisdom and whose point of view is too biased from their own pain. 

I am certain I was100% duped for months, yet I am one of the most skeptical people I've ever met. 

I also know my wife lied at least a handful of times at the beginning if our relationship, about the same sort of thing as yours. And i too think i understand and sympathize with the "why". And , twenty years on it still bothers me. So, maybe you should not listen to me 

Would you care to share a example or two of the sorts of things they texted about? It's not clear to me were the mundane chit chat, or something more personal. Did she indicate she is attracted to him?

Does your IC have an opinion on risking extreme snooping?

I definitely would want the proof one way or another. I would just want to consciously ponder the risks and consequences of getting caught, before deciding.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Do you have access to the phone records ? Does she have a password on her phone ? What phone does she use ?

I also thing think she is overplaying some of the events to make you feel more guilty. You are jealous. There is a reason you act as such. You can blame it on her lies early in the relationship or own up to them and work on them, which you are currently doing. On the other hand, she is blaming it on you.


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> I would not know what to do. My guess there are many here who are highly skilled at detecting warning signs of EA and PA. For me, the hard part is figuring out who is speaking some tried and true wisdom and whose point of view is too biased from their own pain.
> 
> I am certain I was100% duped for months, yet I am one of the most skeptical people I've ever met.
> 
> ...



After having read hundreds of the TAM threads over the last few days, I have seen some very hard stances from both angles and some in the middle. Everyone and their circumstances are different, so I'm just keeping an open mind to all possibilities... any advice or personal experiences are welcome. Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far.

The text message content the first time I 'caught' her (the situation that blew all of this up) was nothing of significance. My problem with it was that it carried on until 11:30pm. The texting that she admitted to being her "becoming interested" in the guy wasn't terrible graphic or telling, but she used the word 'naughty' and stated 'yes, I'm a tease'. 

I've not talked with IC about whether to snoop or not yet. I meet with him this morning.

On a side note, my 180 is making me feel great. As I type, I'm back at my house to 'relieve' her for school. I came in, didn't say anything, she said 'good morning', and I reciprocated... she looked defeated and is currently in the bathroom getting ready. I feel empowered


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> Do you have access to the phone records ? Does she have a password on her phone ? What phone does she use ?
> 
> I also thing think she is overplaying some of the events to make you feel more guilty. You are jealous. There is a reason you act as such. You can blame it on her lies early in the relationship or own up to them and work on them, which you are currently doing. On the other hand, she is blaming it on you.


No access to phone records. She does have a password on her phone and uses an HTC One X.

Thanks for the encouragement about the guilt. I felt extreme guilt when she first mentioned divorce and voiced her feelings. I'm slowly learning this IS NOT all on my shoulders and beginning to realize how selfish she's being, considering all that we have in our lives to work hard to keep.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

There's nothing good about texting a man at 11:30pm


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Helpless,

Have you bought the VARs yet? Do so and get them in place ASAP.

The medical profession is one of those that has a high rate of adultery and divorces associated with it. Do a Goggle search and you'll see what I mean. 

Also note that often times it seems that people "Affair Down" meaning that their affair partner is often less of a person then their spouse in the way of looks, age, etc. However, in your situation the DOC is a bit higher on the scale because he is a Dr. You shouldn't forget this.

Your wife has been devoting time to someone else that she should have been devouting to you and the kids. Judging by the some of the words used in the text, this was AT LEAST an EA. However, I would also think there is a strong possibility that it went physical some time ago based on the amount of time she was spending "in his office" between surgeries so "she could learn".


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

Toffer said:


> Helpless,
> 
> Have you bought the VARs yet? Do so and get them in place ASAP.
> 
> ...


I had heard about "affairing down". She's obviously doing that in the looks category, but the profession has me trumped. Either way you shake the stick, it's wrong, whether EA or PA. Everytime I think about the possibilities I get enraged, but it only takes thinking about the future and my kids to get my mind focused again.

I'm looking into the VARs, but again, there are soooo many out there... I have no idea which one to pick. Any advice from anyone?!?


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

Also, any advice on my overall actions as of now? Do I keep with the 180, MC, IC, investigating, and hope for R? Or do I continue with the 180, prepare for D, and file myself???

So confused...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

HelplesslyHopeful said:


> Also, any advice on my overall actions as of now? Do I keep with the 180, MC, IC, investigating, and hope for R? Or do I continue with the 180, prepare for D, and file myself???
> 
> So confused...


You need the information on how far the affair has gone before you can make a proper decision.


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

Conrad said:


> You need the information on how far the affair has gone before you can make a proper decision.



I figured Conrad... thanks. It's hard to be patient, knowing there is potentially life-changing information and ramifications out there. I'll work on the VARs.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

> =
> 
> The text message content the first time I 'caught' her (the situation that blew all of this up) was nothing of significance. My problem with it was that it carried on until 11:30pm. The texting that she admitted to being her "becoming interested" in the guy wasn't terrible graphic or telling, but she used the word 'naughty' and stated 'yes, I'm a tease'.


It's much clearer to me now. You have every right to snoop extremely. She has given you serious reasons to worry in the last weeks. IMHO, you owe it to yourself and your children to seek clarity by any means necessary.

I'd agree with others below about medical profession and "affair down". (Jeesh, it's eerie how many details folks post on this forum match my own personal experiences!)


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> It's much clearer to me now. You have every right to snoop extremely. She has given you serious reasons to worry in the last weeks. IMHO, you owe it to yourself and your children to seek clarity by any means necessary.
> 
> I'd agree with others below about medical profession and "affair down". (Jeesh, it's eerie how many details folks post on this forum match my own personal experiences!)


I know the feeling of the 'eerieness'... that's what drew me into this site. Though I wish none of us were dealing these issues, it's nice to have so many people on common ground!


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation. 

If she comes back wanting to work on R, will you take her back?

Seems to me like she lost attraction to you. Would you describe yourself a nice guy or people pleaser?


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

A couple of thoughts, fwiw:

1) They are both highly intelligent. If he is involved with her, he has likely done this many times, and understands how people get caught. He may teach her to be on the lookout for signs of snooping.


2) I think you said you do not have access to her phone. Do you have access to her account info on her cell-phone carrier's website?

In my case, I discovered my wife had purchased a new phone and accompanying plan (hidden from me, lied about it until I went and got it and put it in front of her face, but I digress). Somehow I got the number, went to the carrier's website and "registered" for on-line access to her account (she had not already done so, IIRC). (Website might have asked me for her SSN or address or something to confirm "my" identity.) From there, unbeknownst to her, I was able to see her call history (she's not a texter, apparently). (Just a tidbit: her 2000+ minutes/month call history over multiple months hit me pretty hard.) 

Point is, you could potentially have more access to her phone than you think.

3) I wonder if there is more technical help about snooping techniques in the infidelity section of this website. Same goes for advice on what moves to make while investigating a possible EA/PA. "Going through divorce or separation" is not all you are dealing with at the moment.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Helpless,

If you search the CWI forum, I am sure you'll find some recommendations for VARs


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

I remember on poster mentioning Sony Vars are the best. I will get you the model number shortly


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

Lifescript said:


> I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation.
> 
> If she comes back wanting to work on R, will you take her back?
> 
> Seems to me like she lost attraction to you. Would you describe yourself a nice guy or people pleaser?


I'm a 'man's man'... though, I do make an effort to keep my family happy. We are both stubborn people, set in our ways, but have always argued 'good'.

I know she hasn't lost physical attraction to me... she has definitely lost something in me or it's at least been clouded by her emotions and inability to cope with/forgive the past (both ours and her personal past).

I'm all in on R, but the further we go the less try that I see from her. 

Today, she texted me that she didn't want to see a counselor again. She's afraid that they will diagnose her with an 'Axis One Disorder', which could potentially effect her medical licensure as a physician. I've talked with MC/IC about this and they guaranteed me they would not do that, but she doesn't trust the system... or, doesn't want to work on this at all.

Her apartment searches have resulted in nothing. She told me today that she was going to find a house to rent, since apartment prices are so expensive.

I sent a text asking the following, summarized here of course:

-I respect your decision to not do MC even though I can guarantee you wouldn't have any diagnosis labeled to your name. I'm going to continue seeing the MC, so if you change your mind, let me know.

-If not MC/IC, what are you doing to 'work' on this marriage?

-Lastly, why are you getting a house instead of an apartment? You had told me the plan was to keep the kids at 'our' home all of the time...

I've not heard anything back yet...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

She will regard all those communiques as weak.


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> A couple of thoughts, fwiw:
> 
> 1) They are both highly intelligent. If he is involved with her, he has likely done this many times, and understands how people get caught. He may teach her to be on the lookout for signs of snooping.
> 
> ...


I'm still looking into the VARs and have found one I think will work well (expensive though!). Will order one tonight. 

At this point, I'm not getting more hurt by the thought of a EA/PA... I'm getting mad. Especially since she's 'hanging' on to me. I thought of telling her if she wouldn't do MC, then once a week, I want her to make time to sit down with me after the kids are in bed and have a discussion about everything. If it doesn't get talked about, it'll never get fixed.

Right or Wrong idea?


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

Conrad said:


> She will regard all those communiques as weak.


Why is that? I'm just trying to pry some information out of her. Your suggestion is?????


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

HelplesslyHopeful said:


> Why is that? I'm just trying to pry some information out of her. Your suggestion is?????


Stop chasing her.

Get the info you need on the affair.

Blow it wide open.


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

Also, I contacted an attorney today. I'm scheduling a meeting for early next week. I want to be prepared to be the one to draw first blood, should this go entirely sour.


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Stop chasing her.
> 
> Get the info you need on the affair.
> 
> Blow it wide open.


Ok... and if all of this intel turns up no affair, EA or PA, what should I do next?


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

HelplesslyHopeful said:


> I'm still looking into the VARs and have found one I think will work well (expensive though!). Will order one tonight.
> 
> At this point, I'm not getting more hurt by the thought of a EA/PA... I'm getting mad. Especially since she's 'hanging' on to me. I thought of telling her if she wouldn't do MC, then once a week, I want her to make time to sit down with me after the kids are in bed and have a discussion about everything. If it doesn't get talked about, it'll never get fixed.
> 
> Right or Wrong idea?


Get the VAR in the car asap then figure out where to go after going over the intel. You have to find out if she's having an affair or not. Go dark for now except for the kids. I would say forget the separation tell her to move back in or divorce. But that is after you check the VARs jmo.


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

Good advice Tom... I guess I'm in a holding pattern until I figure this stuff out.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

HelplesslyHopeful said:


> Good advice Tom... I guess I'm in a holding pattern until I figure this stuff out.


It's a shock we know. Once you know what you are up against then you can respond, not react. Make her react. Does she constantly protect her phone the few times you see her? Is the other doc married? Gather intel now.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Find out what's going on between her and the doc. No reasoning/talking with her will work if she is still in a fog and in contact with him. 

Keep doing the 180, use VARs, and set boundaries. Behave in a way that tells her you are not ok being her plan B.


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

She doesn't really hide her phone when we're around each other. She's left it downstairs while I was there and gone upstairs. 

The Doc isn't married that I know of. He's always partying and being single, from the initial convesations I had with him during my appointments.

I will continue with the 180 and VARs as planned. 

LS: What do you suggest as boundaries?


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

I'm sure you are doing things husbands do when in fact you are not together. Cut off the $.


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## HelplesslyHopeful (Apr 9, 2013)

W has her own money... she's always been a saver, plus her parents would always assist if need be. 

Vars ordered!


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Too late I guess. I will post it anway though

Sony ICDPX312 from Best Buy.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

HelplesslyHopeful said:


> At this point, I'm not getting more hurt by the thought of a EA/PA... I'm getting mad. Especially since she's 'hanging' on to me.
> 
> *You're Plan B if her dallience with DOC doesn't work out!*
> 
> ...


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

*Re: Re: WAW needs "Time to Think"... separating.*



HelplesslyHopeful said:


> W has her own money... she's always been a saver, plus her parents would always assist if need be.
> 
> Vars ordered!


Ok. Good. One of the biggest mistakes I see guys make is continuing to finance their wives lifestyle while they "decide" what to do. 

You need to let her feel the consequences of not having you around. Only do your fair share. 

If there is any chance of R, she should move back to the house. Time and time again all a separation means for WW spouses is a free pass to play the field.


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