# The impossibility of this....



## cinnabomb (Oct 23, 2014)

It's been a very long time since I posted. If you followed me at all, I was going through the worst time in my life, about 7 years of a troubled marriage, really abusive and neglectful behavior from my wife, and we were in marriage counseling without much progress. 

So after all of that, and the MC saying I had tried so hard and made SO many changes to try and save the marriage, but still not seeing as much effort from wife, I came to the hard conclusion that my wife simply didnt love me anymore...not in the way that she used to or in the way that I need, anyways. Which is why I have pulling out my hair, wondering why no matter how hard I tried and everything I did, she simply wouldnt give anything back to me. No nurturing, care, affection, intimacy, love. Nothing. 

After all that she brought up separation when I talked honestly in session about feeling neglected and unloved. Imagine my surprise, that after all her abuse and neglect, that SHE brought up separation. At first I said no its not an option I wont discuss it, but then I realized that I am doing what Ive always done with this relationship....chasing her. I decided to stop. And I told her and MC I'm done chasing someone who wants to flee...if thats what she wants, then so be it. I said if we separate its on my terms not hers...she wanted to continue to work on the marriage...I said no, if I'm gone then I'm done and moving on. We will coparent our girl. I can't be alone in an apartment, not seeing my girl as much, and waiting for wife to figure out her issues. I want and need love and affection and sex and wont wait. 

A couple weeks later I was looking for apartments, a couple days away from signing the lease on one. It was the lowest point of my life. But I decided to try one more time to talk to her before I went through with it. We had the first open and honest discuss in maybe half a decade. She finally admitted to a lot of her abuse and hurt and neglect, and actually said sorry for things. She said that she wrongly assumed that if I asked for something or even had to discuss something difficult with her, like something she did that was hurtful or inconsiderate, etc, that she wrongly assumed it was an attack on her, that it meant I thought she was bad or inferior, etc. So I asked if she still wanted me to leave and she said she wanted to try. Wow, ok. I said lets exchange a very honest email, in writing, about our needs in this relationship so that there is no confusion. She agreed and we did. 

So since then, I can see her trying to be kinder and affectionate in little bits. It's heartwarming to see anything at all. Its far from "perfect", but still, it's nice to see that she sort of cares. THIS BRINGS ME TO THE DILEMMA. 

I dont want to look back if this doesnt work out, and live with regrets, knowing I could have done more to save this marriage. But this means giving myself COMPLETELY to this process, and her, and allowing myself to love her again, even "fall in love" again. What I mean is, that I cant bring myself to fight past the resentment, hurt, and pain, and do the type of things that make her love me, such as kissing her out of nowhere, being romantic, giving her compliments, without giving myself over to her and this process, if that makes sense. 

HOWEVER, I cant bear to fall for her again and then be hurt again. I just cant. I have never felt lower in my life and had 7 rough years, and it took me the majority of this year to finally be able to protect myself a bit and step outside of my experience and put it all in perspective. If I "let her in" again, she could destroy me and I'm scared of that. So you see the catch 22? I could give my defenses up, protect myself, and not give her too much of me, but that may in turn result in a self-fulfilling prophecy. Like, of course its going to end if I act closed off and dont give myself over to the process. 

But I dont know....thoughts, I really need help on this....???


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

Totally understandable. You don't trust her, don't trust the marriage. You also don't trust yourself. 

I've been there. I went to marriage counseling without my ex because he said he didn't need counseling... Anyway, the counselor told me a few things that I really knew, but really needed to hear. She said, for me to trust myself. Make up my mind to accept this marriage how it is (was) or figure out my plan to leave. She suggested I give the marriage a mental time limit, not necessary to share that part with the ex, just a goal in my own mind. And to keep working on it, be committed to the success of the marriage. 

What I heard, was work on it in spite of him, AND in spite of my fears/doubts/lack of trust....and KNOW that I would figure out a plan, and I would be alright either way. Ya know? 

See..... you could set a time limit (mine was one year....we didn't make it six months and this was after 23 years) and do your best to meet her needs, while not giving up your own needs. TRY to make the marriage what you think it should be. Be your self. 

Go into this with your eyes wide open. You KNOW it might not work out. It will still suck if it doesn't. It will still hurt. But it's doable. And it's a chance/risk you are voluntarily taking. Even if she is nice, and it is kind of working.... in six months you might just feel that this isn't really cutting it, just spinning wheels or worse. You CAN change your mind then. You can reassess and renegotiate in six months and see if you still want to stay committed. 

Hope this makes sense....and hope it helps! Good luck!


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Welcome back, Cinna.

Brother, that is never an easy decision. 

She may do this long term. She may only do just enough to keep you from leaving. She may break your heart.

One thing I think you do need to clearly recognize is that when you finally put your foot down and said, "No more", she came around. She respects strength.

Do you have the ability to both let her in and be strong? It is not an easy balance, and it will require periods of selflessness in the face of potential resentment over her periodically neglecting you.

IMO, if you can't be both, you need to let her go. 

If you can, you will likely be content, maybe even happy, but you will have to change to become that person.

Can you do so?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Welcome back, Cinna.
> 
> Brother, that is never an easy decision.
> 
> ...


She "came around" when he reached out to her. She was not the one approaching him. If he had not said anything, they would probably be separated now. That was her plan, it seems. She was probably worn out, too.

She seems very sensitive, cinna. Or were you saying things to her that indeed seemed like personal attacks?


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## emmasmith (Aug 11, 2016)

I think, do you have the ability to both let her in & be strong? It's not easy to balance, it will require resentment time of selflessness in the face of potential.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Hey cinna, the two of you went through mc and she never would try. 

She wanted a separation so you could support her still but have you out of the way. 

Now that you are moving on and she sees that it is happening she finally wants to work it out. This is only after you approach her about it. Time to move on. If she starts to pursue after the D then maybe, but I don't think she will.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> She "came around" when he reached out to her. She was not the one approaching him. If he had not said anything, they would probably be separated now. That was her plan, it seems. She was probably worn out, too.
> 
> She seems very sensitive, cinna. Or were you saying things to her that indeed seemed like personal attacks?


This is fair, but incomplete. The combination of him reaching out plus the looming separation was likely what led to it. I see nothing else that had could have caused her to admit where she was falling short as she had plenty of other opportunities.

Cinna, she very well could be similar to my wife in that she is sensitive, prideful, carries shame, periodically emotionally lazy, and expects (not in a malicious way, but just wired that way) you to move to her. Then when you don't (because it is reasonable to expect her to periodically move toward you), and she can't or won't, you get frustrated. Lather, rinse, repeat.

In fairness, it may be me projecting, but this is also the primary source of contention in my relationship as well. Most days I am okay with what we have, which is 80/20 me/her on carrying, initiating, prioritizing, etc. Ideally I think I want closer to 60/40. That gap leads to tremendous frustration.

That is why I am telling you that if I am seeing this right, you must be strong and patient, or else you will experience the same frustration. It also may be significant enough as to lead to incompatibility.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

So after seven years of treating you like crap, she has an 11th hour "come to jesus" moment and now that she finally is going to try.

She is playing you to get you to stay for her own selfish reasons. And will go right back to treating you like crap when you cave.

You finally found the courage to move out and move on, don't cave now.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Cinna... here's the thing. I'm going to guess that you hung around fighting for your marriage because part of you was afraid to take that big step out the door. I know I was. However, once you've stood at that precipice, you have a different outlook. Now, instead of being afraid you know that, if things don't work out in this reconciliation, you can take that step without fear.

Don't be afraid to take a chance at this reconciliation but there are two things to watch.

First, understand that you won't go from cautious to 100% in with one jump. Work on getting back to a place you can talk to her, allow her in and move at your own pace.

Second, right now is the only time you will have to discuss all issues. Whatever you've felt hurt the marriage/relationship should be discussed now. Spending habits, how she talks to you, lack of sex, her housekeeping habits, how she parks the car, etc.... Because down the road you don't want to hear "well, you never discussed that in the past" when it becomes an issue.

Also, be open to hearing issues she has with you. Don't be defensive. Listen with an open mind.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> This is fair, but incomplete. The combination of him reaching out plus the looming separation was likely what led to it. I see nothing else that had could have caused her to admit where she was falling short as she had plenty of other opportunities.
> 
> Cinna, she very well could be similar to my wife in that she is sensitive, prideful, carries shame, periodically emotionally lazy, and expects (not in a malicious way, but just wired that way) you to move to her. Then when you don't (because it is reasonable to expect her to periodically move toward you), and she can't or won't, you get frustrated. Lather, rinse, repeat.
> 
> ...


Far . . . Cinna's wife does not need him. If he had not approached her, they would be separated right now. And even now, she is only making minimal efforts.

I think Chris Taylor is right that they both have some fear about moving on from each other. I think he has more fear, though. And rightly so.

Cinna, there is just no realistic need for your wife to compromise. She makes lots of money and has a promising future. It would be easier for her to have you with her, in that she would see her daughter every day. But even without that, she would have more time to work.

If I were you, I would be very humble. Realize that if you want to stay, it will be you doing the changing, and compromising.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

jld said:


> If I were you, I would be very humble. Realize that if you want to stay, it will be you doing the changing, and compromising.


This is all he has any control over... any walls must fall first so he can clearly see all around him.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

@Cinna you won't like my post but please respond to it so I know you've read it.

I did read your whole thread in the past. So I see the bigger picture. And I know very clearly what is going through your mind. 

And I know SHE knows exactly how LITTLE to throw you in the way of scraps to keep you as her beta orbiter (I don't mean that to insult you - I believe that's what she actually wants to make her feel worthwhile).

I completely understand that you are torn.

In your situation - and yours alone since I've read your situation - I have very specific advice that you CAN succeed at.

First - I doubt you can be strong and lead and also open your heart at the same time. That's not you - you are a much gentler soul and would see the strength we speak of as negative and manipulative. But your W CLEARLY only responded to your certainty when you said "I'm done". So she needs this but you need her to accept and love you without having to be threatening all the time. I say threatening, because I believe that's how you would see what is needed.

Instead I see you being angry and resentful and passive aggressive if she snubs you - snubs you in an attempt to goad you into being tougher with her. So that's the bad dynamic I see being played out.

So..... here's what might work.

STAY where you are emotionally. Distant and strong. Those have to be your terms. Don't come toward her because she will back off and hurt you again.

Instead the rules HAVE to be this: SHE gives 100%. SHE comes forward with love and affection. SHE comes home and asks "how was your day?" And freaking listens to your answer. SHE nurtures YOU for the next 6 months.

If she can earn your trust, THEN you can give it to her.

Unfortunately, I don't think she can sustain this. If she can - BOOM you're there! Right? That's all you've wanted all along.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

The one earning the trust is the dominant. It is the submissive who needs to feel safe. Think about that in terms of most female attraction . . .


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

TheTruthHurts said:


> @Cinna you won't like my post but please respond to it so I know you've read it.
> 
> I did read your whole thread in the past. So I see the bigger picture. And I know very clearly what is going through your mind.
> 
> ...


*So as the dominant in the relationship and as such, she gets to set all of the rules?

With what she's put your a$$ through, I think that I'd rather haul off and French kiss an Alaskan grizzly bear!*


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

jld said:


> The one earning the trust is the dominant. It is the submissive who needs to feel safe. Think about that in terms of most female attraction . . .



@Cinna dominance and submissiveness should not even enter your mind. Just @Cinna and Mrs @Cinna. And it's the Mrs who has proven - for seven years - to be untrustworthy.

It's the untrustworthy one who must earn the trust.

This is about character, and not dominant / submissive dynamics 


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

TheTruthHurts said:


> @Cinna dominance and submissiveness should not even enter your mind. Just @Cinna and Mrs @Cinna. And it's the Mrs who has proven - for seven years - to be untrustworthy.
> 
> *It's the untrustworthy one who must earn the trust.*
> 
> ...


You need to earn her trust if you have any hope of saving this marriage, Cinna. She is not going to do it. Her plan was separation, remember? 

And don't kid yourself--power dynamics exist in every relationship. You are the dominant in this one.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

@cinnabomb, just because she has had this sudden come to Jesus moment and says she wants to try, does not in any way mean that you HAVE TO. You have been through a lot of sh!t in the last few years because of her, and if you feel like you cannot do it any more, then you don't have to. I can guarantee you this... she is NOT going to change for longer than it takes for her to be convinced that you are back in and not going anywhere. She will be back to how she always has been (because that is who she IS) and you will have to start this whole process over again. My prediction is that this will occur in less than six months time.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

jld said:


> *You need to earn her trust if you have any hope of saving this marriage*, Cinna. She is not going to do it. Her plan was separation, remember?
> 
> And don't kid yourself--power dynamics exist in every relationship. You are the dominant in this one.


This is the most ridiculous thing that could be said for his situation. SHE is the one responsible for the horrible state of the marriage and its impending end....SHE needs to step up and prove herself, NOT HIM! What a horrible thing to tell him!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> @Cinna, just because she has had this sudden come to Jesus moment and says she wants to try, does not in any way mean that you HAVE TO. You have been through a lot of sh!t in the last few years because of her, and if you feel like you cannot do it any more, then you don't have to. I can guarantee you this... she is NOT going to change for longer than it takes for her to be convinced that you are back in and not going anywhere. She will be back to how she always has been (because that is who she IS) and you will have to start this whole process over again. My prediction is that this will occur in less than six months time.


I do not see any come to Jesus moment. He was the one who went to her, remember?

I do not see any great motivation on her part, nor any leadership. He is the one who is holding on.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> This is the most ridiculous thing that could be said for his situation. SHE is the one responsible for the horrible state of the marriage and its impending end....SHE needs to step up and prove herself, NOT HIM! What a horrible thing to tell him!


That may be how he sees it. But it may not be how she sees it. And since he is the one who most wants the marriage, the impetus is on him.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

jld said:


> I do not see any come to Jesus moment. He was the one who went to her, remember?
> 
> I do not see any great motivation on her part, nor any leadership. He is the one who is holding on.





cinnabomb said:


> After all that she brought up separation when I talked honestly in session about feeling neglected and unloved. Imagine my surprise, that after all her abuse and neglect, that SHE brought up separation. At first I said no its not an option I wont discuss it, but then I realized that I am doing what Ive always done with this relationship....chasing her. I decided to stop. And I told her and MC I'm done chasing someone who wants to flee...if thats what she wants, then so be it. I said if we separate its on my terms not hers...she wanted to continue to work on the marriage...I said no, if I'm gone then I'm done and moving on. We will coparent our girl. I can't be alone in an apartment, not seeing my girl as much, and waiting for wife to figure out her issues. I want and need love and affection and sex and wont wait.
> 
> A couple weeks later I was looking for apartments, a couple days away from signing the lease on one. It was the lowest point of my life. But I decided to try one more time to talk to her before I went through with it. We had the first open and honest discuss in maybe half a decade. She finally admitted to a lot of her abuse and hurt and neglect, and actually said sorry for things. She said that she wrongly assumed that if I asked for something or even had to discuss something difficult with her, like something she did that was hurtful or inconsiderate, etc, that she wrongly assumed it was an attack on her, that it meant I thought she was bad or inferior, etc. So I asked if she still wanted me to leave and she said she wanted to try. Wow, ok. I said lets exchange a very honest email, in writing, about our needs in this relationship so that there is no confusion. She agreed and we did.
> 
> So since then, I can see her trying to be kinder and affectionate in little bits. It's heartwarming to see anything at all. Its far from "perfect", but still, it's nice to see that she sort of cares. THIS BRINGS ME TO THE DILEMMA.


She was not willing to step up until he was OUT THE DOOR. She was the one initially wanting to separate, then when he finally found his voice, she suddenly admits what she has done and wants to try. He was finally to the point of ending it, her deciding to "try" is manipulation on her part and her wanting to be back in control.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> She was not willing to step up until he was OUT THE DOOR. She was the one initially wanting to separate, then when he finally found his voice, she suddenly admits what she has done and wants to try. He was finally to the point of ending it, her deciding to "try" is manipulation on her part and her wanting to be back in control.


There would not have been even any "try" if he had not gone and asked to talk with her.

He was not ready to end it.

I don't think she cares much about making this work. If she did, she would not have suggested separation. And her efforts since have not indicated much motivation.

I don't think she is manipulative or controlling. I do think she feels guilty at letting the marriage go. But ultimately, her heart is not in it, as her actions show.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

I think this boils down to risk versus reward. Is the amount of risk you are willing to put up worth the reward you may receive in the end. 

Let's say there is a 1 out of 5 chance that everything works out perfectly. Are you willing to have an 80% chance of your heart getting stomped on for a 20% chance at happiness? Also figure in the concept that there are plenty of other possibilities out there and maybe even a better one. Nobody knows the percentages better than you, and nobody can guess what the best possible outcome is better than you. So, sit down, analyze the possibilities.

For me, I was willing to give my marriage another try, but I was unwilling to deal with the possible roller coaster breakup. Since my faith in the marriage actually turning out positively was extremely low, I hit the road.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Jld, I have to say I'm with 3x on this. I think Cinna's wife, being the one to ask for another shot, needs to show she has skin in the game. 

And Cinna, I think that what you need to do is pick a reasonable end-date. Say, no longer than 4-6 months from now, where if you aren't feeling this relationship is taking a positive turn in the way it should, you let her go and move on. 

Having that end date and sticking to it means you will think twice bout getting too sucked in. Just because you're going to mindfully stay at 50K feet doesn't mean this can't succeed. It just means that you're going to treat yourself kinder this time around whilst trying.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Satya said:


> Jld, I have to say I'm with 3x on this. I think Cinna's wife, being the one to ask for another shot, needs to show she has skin in the game.
> 
> And Cinna, I think that what you need to do is pick a reasonable end-date. Say, no longer than 4-6 months from now, where if you aren't feeling this relationship is taking a positive turn in the way it should, you let her go and move on.
> 
> Having that end date and sticking to it means you will think twice bout getting too sucked in. Just because you're going to mindfully stay at 50K feet doesn't mean this can't succeed. It just means that you're going to treat yourself kinder this time around whilst trying.


Satay, if she had been the one who went to him to ask to work things out, I might agree. But she was not. He was the one who felt motivated to go to her and give this another shot, and she agreed. 

Pretty passive on her part. And she seems to have been pretty passive since. I do not see things changing. 

Folks, I am just trying to be realistic here. I do not think it is right to give him false hope. If this relationship has any hope of working, he is going to have to lead it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I don't think there is much reason for her to stay in this relationship. I think she knows this on a visceral level, and that is why she is not motivated to do much to heal it.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

WHY should HE have to lead it?? HE isn't the one who ripped it apart in the first place! Please stop defending sh!tty women by insisting that its up to the MEN in the relationship to lead and fix it, when it was the WOMEN who destroyed it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *So as the dominant in the relationship and as such, she gets to set all of the rules?
> 
> With what she's put your a$$ through, I think that I'd rather haul off and French kiss an Alaskan grizzly bear!*


She is not the dominant. The one who takes responsibility for the relationship is the dominant. 

I don't think she has the skills or disposition to be the dominant. It is up to cinna to fill that role.

Really, arb, what motivation does she have for staying with him, other than to see her baby every day?

If cinna wants to make this work, he will have to lead it. And she gave him a clue how to do that by sharing her feelings about feeling attacked with him.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> WHY should HE have to lead it?? HE isn't the one who ripped it apart in the first place! Please stop defending sh!tty women by insisting that its up to the MEN in the relationship to lead and fix it, when it was the WOMEN who destroyed it.


He does not have to do anything. He is free to divorce.

But if he wants to avoid that (and I think he does), the only way I see it happening is if he takes the leadership position.

It would be the same if the shoes were on different feet. She would need to do the same things I am telling him to do.

The person who cares more, and is capable of more, is going to end up the dominant in the relationship.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

ABHale said:


> Hey cinna, the two of you went through mc and she never would try.
> 
> She wanted a separation so you could support her still but have you out of the way.
> 
> Now that you are moving on and she sees that it is happening she finally wants to work it out. This is only after you approach her about it. Time to move on. If she starts to pursue after the D then maybe, but I don't think she will.


Yeppir.

Cinnabomb and his FBFF went to the oval marriage race track. They were going to race their cars around and round. Who ever made the 50 lap-years first, would be the winner. 

His FBFF had no gas in her race car. But she was willing to race. Cinnabomb hooked one end of the chain to her Heart and the other to his Resolve. He dragged her around and around. She followed dutifully, never putting on the brakes, never trying to pass him [she could not!]. She did not jump out of her car when he took the curves recklessly. 

Looking in the mirror Cinna noticed that she was dozing off on occasion. She did not look left or right. She did not count the laps. She was along for the ride.

As long a Cinna dragged her she would follow. *She did not want to be the one to cause the cars to crash or the race to stop. *

She knows the spectators take this race seriously. If she was the one to crash the cars, if she was the one who had a tire blowout, she would be blamed by her family and friends in the stands.

She was willing to be dragged, to be taken for a ride, but she was not willing do drive, or to approach the curves without a guide. 

A race driver can win a race if he carefully paces the car, avoids being too reckless. He must carefully manage his fuel consumption and not allow his placing/pacing with the leaders to be lost. He needs all the _endurance_ he can muster. 

Getting to the end and the winning flags, is having a plan.

If his plan is to drag another car with a dozing driver across the finish line, he will not _endure_.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ABHale said:


> Hey cinna, the two of you went through mc and she never would try.
> 
> She wanted a separation so you could support her still but have you out of the way.
> 
> Now that you are moving on and she sees that it is happening she finally wants to work it out. This is only after you approach her about it. Time to move on. If she starts to pursue after the D then maybe, but I don't think she will.


She makes a lot of money, with her career ready to take off even more. She would likely have to pay him alimony.

She does not need him, and her actions show it. 

He still wants her, and his actions show it.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

I felt I hadn't given you a fair and nonjudgemental assessment of your struggles so went back and read all threads you created in your time here.

Change is always perspective... those going through it, those impacted with those going through it, and those observing.

My observations from your writings are what they are... observations, but here they are.

When we give others too much power in our life to define our happiness, we give away the core. You have fought unsuccessfully to try to control those changes in a codependent way that has been detrimental to your own mental well-being, so much that you have given her the power to effect an ability to feel she can destroy you if you continue to be codependent.

If you allow this, you may be right... so the simple solution is to not allow it.

I probably triggered too much in my previous responses, I had a period in my life I too felt as you, with insecurities that filled the weak gaps I didn't have the right tools for, and like a smoker that quits and tells everyone else they need to stop doing those destructive things, it was unmindful and forceful... for that I apologize.

To steal a line from a puppet in a movie script... "Fear is the path to the dark side…fear leads to anger…anger leads to hate…hate leads to suffering". 

This is so true... until you quell the fear you have in self, most everything else will tumble like another struck domino. However you can, you are going to have to remove this insecurity within you and the best way to do that is let go of the need to control your wife's behaviors.

She cannot destroy you without your permission...

A dilemma is a no-win scenario equally undesirable and there are wins in one of your choices, and a win in a choice makes it much easier... but it takes faith.

Faith in yourself, faith in your wife especially now that she is reaching out, faith in your daughter and the unconditional love she brings, and faith in the process, then let go.

Faith is hard, it's filled with blind trust... but you cannot go back so why not move forward, and forward looks like is entirely your call using each day as a new step, but please do it with respect, be careful how you define someone else's character any more than your own.

If you choose to read this, thank you.


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## cinnabomb (Oct 23, 2014)

OK let me address a few comments here and thank you all for the advice:



farsidejunky said:


> Welcome back, Cinna.
> 
> Do you have the ability to both let her in and be strong? It is not an easy balance, and it will require periods of selflessness in the face of potential resentment over her periodically neglecting you.
> 
> Can you do so?


I dont know and thats why I finally came back here to ask your advice. I stopped posting on forums because it was dragging me down more than helping to be honest, and I wanted to give our MC an honest chance without too much "outside" influence. We tried, it helped in terms of giving us both a better understanding of ourselves, our pasts, our baggage and issues, but didnt help our marriage much because the MC would never even have us talk to EACH OTHER in session and we would rarely do it outside of session. I complained about it but MC didnt think we were ready. Really? After 15 years together and a year of MC we cant talk to each other? This was always a big issue....wife just gets easily triggered by ANYTHING and I never raise my voice, call names, etc. Always try to be understanding, compassionate, apologetic (too much so I have learned), but she has a bad temper and sensitivities because of her past. 

So anyways, I dont know if I can do it again. I was so low I was crying many times a day, pulling over my car to cry, feeling severe bouts of sadness and desperation. I cant go through that again. Perhaps I wouldnt though, because at that time, I was simply DESPERATE and confused, not even knowing why this was all happening. Now its different....I understand it all so much better and so does she. That doesnt mean we have the power to fix it, but at least there is some understanding, and I also now know that there is another option, as awful as it might be, of separation. So its possible that I could bear the storm once more if it came. 

But it feels weird after all this to be positive and happy. After all the hurt to suddenly say "HEY honey!" when she walks in the door and give her a hug and a kiss. I mean....on one hand i WANT to, and on the other, I am still reeling and hurt from the 7 years of abuse and pain. But what serves my goal in the end? Be distant and cold? That may protect my emotions, but my wife is not the type to step up and be the bigger person. She instantly "mimicks" the mood I set and shuts off for worse than I ever can. It's her go-to. So JLD is right about me having to set the tone and lead here. Wife simply doesnt have that character....she goes with the flow and wont do anything grand or courageous or creative or out of character. 



jld said:


> She "came around" when he reached out to her. She was not the one approaching him. If he had not said anything, they would probably be separated now. That was her plan, it seems. She was probably worn out, too.
> 
> She seems very sensitive, cinna. Or were you saying things to her that indeed seemed like personal attacks?


That's right JLD. She actually brought up separation a couple times because she felt like she was "trying" but couldnt understand why I was still unhappy. She barely does one thing different, lets say 1%, and then doesnt understand why I am unhappy. She has treated me like her employee for many years, thus doesnt seem to want to lift a finger for me, nurture me, etc. I dont know why she is wired like that now. So yes, I saved us from separation by being strong enough and having enough desire to save our marriage (as I have always done) and opening up the lines with her in an honest way. 

She felt safe in that conversation, and opened up her truths, about herself, her issues, how she hurt me, etc. She also asked that I copped to my own part in all this, such as me making her feel criticized, perhaps not communicating well in the past, and also not ASKING for the things I need but ASSUMING that if she loved me she would already know. I am guilty of this. I now know she simply isnt wired like me, isnt as intuitive about thinking about other peoples experience and their needs. She has become a little narcissistic working in hollywood (a very common affliction in that industry), and perhaps she WOULD give me more of what I wanted if I asked. That's what she claims anyways and I want to find out for myself. 

But I wouldnt say she "came around" exactly. Keep in mind she is very confused. She too is hurting, scared. She lacks foresight in a shocking way. She actually sad we would separate but not tell anyone. Meanwhile we live in a tight neighborhood where we see friends in the street daily. I'm like "WTF are you talking about, you think people wont start to notice we arent together and one of us is going in and out of a different apartment??" She said she didnt even think about the details. Thats how she is...acts totally out of emotion and doesnt think it through. Learning things the hard way is her M.O. I guess she needed me to reach out and put things in perspective for her. 



farsidejunky said:


> In fairness, it may be me projecting, but this is also the primary source of contention in my relationship as well. Most days I am okay with what we have, which is 80/20 me/her on carrying, initiating, prioritizing, etc. Ideally I think I want closer to 60/40. That gap leads to tremendous frustration.


This is a big one. A truth that I have finally admit to myself. I WANT and NEED a woman to also meet me halfway or close. Even 60/40 as you said would be amazing. It's sort of always been 90/10 in our relationship which ended up in me being super resentful after all the years of feeling unloved and unfulfilled. I do not know if my wife can ever get there but I'm willing to communicate my needs and give her a chance to try. 



barbados said:


> So after seven years of treating you like crap, she has an 11th hour "come to jesus" moment and now that she finally is going to try.
> 
> She is playing you to get you to stay for her own selfish reasons. And will go right back to treating you like crap when you cave.
> 
> You finally found the courage to move out and move on, don't cave now.


 @barbados. I think youre wrong. She is scared, confused, and hurting too. She is protecting herself too. She has a lot of baggage and lost her way VERY much so in hollywood. Her mother was neglectful and awful role model. This isnt all her fault Its about having some understanding and compassion for peoples own history, baggage, demons. Maybe it still doesnt work for me and my marriage, but that doesnt mean she is evil or anything. I love her deeply. Even after all this Id take a bullet for her. Its how I am and I dont give a flying F if you think that makes me weak or a pu$$y. It's how I was raised and I want to look back on my life and know that I was a good man. And the truth is, I DO have the strength to leave if I have to. It will hurt like hell but I was DAYS away from signing that lease. I can be again. 



TheTruthHurts said:


> @Cinna you won't like my post but please respond to it so I know you've read it.
> 
> Instead the rules HAVE to be this: SHE gives 100%. SHE comes forward with love and affection. SHE comes home and asks "how was your day?" And freaking listens to your answer. SHE nurtures YOU for the next 6 months.
> 
> ...


Well this is the thing...my wife follows my example. She is simply not the type to give 100%. She can be sweet for a day or a week but it dies down and she reverts into her self-focused self. Some women respond differently to a man being distant, she isnt attracted to it or try and interrupt it...she mimicks. So if I am too cold and distant, things will never change. One of her big complaints is that I became negative over the years. Yup, I did. Rightfully so. I was treated horribly. So I am trying to focus on the good right now and also give her verbal affirmations when she does something nice, something I stopped doing years ago. I take responsibility for that. I always think "that was nice" or "thanks" in my head, but dont always say it. I'm trying harder now. 

People keep saying things like "Earn her trust". Pretend I'm stupid. WTF are you specifically talking about? I am honest, loyal, hardworking, loving, protective, reliable, consistent, stable, practical, and make good choices in life. I treat people well and with dignity and compassion. WTF more can I do? I am honestly asking for specifics here please. 



3Xnocharm said:


> @cinnabomb, just because she has had this sudden come to Jesus moment and says she wants to try, does not in any way mean that you HAVE TO. My prediction is that this will occur in less than six months time.


I know that 3X and I thank you for your sympathy. But I want to. Our communication was really stunted for a long time. And MC didnt help it much. After this breakthrough conversation, I want to give her a chance, me a chance, and us a chance. Not forever. Not even for a year. But the best chance we can so I can look back and know I tried EVERYTHING to the best of my abilities. I am NOT a "learn the hard way" type. I think things through 10 moves past the average person, to use a chess reference, and it's how I got to where I am in my career, business, other successes. I thought I was doing the same with her but I realized I was giving TOO much and asking for TOO little. I'm foolish for thinking that would work. I feel really ashamed and stupid for that, like a failure. 



jld said:


> I do not see any come to Jesus moment. He was the one who went to her, remember?
> 
> I do not see any great motivation on her part, nor any leadership. He is the one who is holding on.


Yes, however, when I said "is this what you want. think it through carefully." (me moving out). Her response was "It kills me because I love you but I dont know what else to do". She's confused guys. She even said "I dont even know if I am marriage material". I think she is just struggling herself and I feel really bad for her. I want to be there for her. Yes I am definitely the one who has always held on and in that moment when I said "Ok if separation is what you want, then thats fine with me", it was me realizing that I was always holding on to someone wanting to flee and saying "no more." I TOO want to be pursued and held on to. It's time for that in my life. But also remember I asked her after the talk if she still want to separate and she was the one who said no lets try. She loves me, she just has a lot of baggage/demons that get in the way. It's tough. for her, for me, for us. 

There is no end game for her to get me to stay, when she was the one who kept bringing up separation. She also repeatedly said what a great dad I am and that she wants me in our girls life as much as possible and that she would NEVER keep me from her because she herself knows what its like to have absent parents and she hated them for that. Trying not to get down, but separating, even in the same neighborhood as them, but not being woken by my little sweet girl every morning with snuggles and kisses....well that one kills me. Really. 

It's been said in another forum that I hung on to a broken relationship for so long because I desperately loved the idea of marriage and the feeling of it, even if it wasnt good. Theyre right. Its true. I love the feeling of family. And I wanted it to work so badly that I turned the other cheek and buried the pain and lived in delusion. I dont want to do that anymore. So I am keeping my eyes open, trying to be strong and courageous enough to voice myself even if it means a storm after, and also at the same time, try my best to give to her what she needs, her "fuel" to give me what I need. 



jld said:


> There would not have been even any "try" if he had not gone and asked to talk with her.
> 
> He was not ready to end it.


On the contrary JLD, I was 24-48 frm signing that lease, and in addition, I said in MC that if we separate, I am immediately moving on. I said it to her and to our therapist. Meaning I'm looking for someone else to share my life with. I meant it. I didnt want it, and Id rather stay and make it work, but I meant it when I said I was done chasing someone who doesnt care. I would be on a dating site within a week of moving in. Not trying to sound like a jerk because Im not one, but I love romance, I love sharing life with someone, I love intimacy, and I need all that. I've been starved of it for the better part of a decade. I'm getting old and I want to share my life with someone and I just wont wait around for her to figure it out. 

In addition I told MC that I am done with marriage counseling. I want to see if my wife truly cares without this "judge" overseeing us. And if we separate, then I'm 100% done and moving on. I finally stood up for myself and it felt good to do that, even if it does hurt me to think about it. 

So in the last week she has made efforts to be closer to me, touch me a bit more, even make me oatmeal for breakfast a few times. Already some nice steps, considering she rarely touches me and hasnt cooked more than 5 meals for me in 10 years. She is starting to see me differently again, I can see it. I guess the answer is somewhere in the middle....give as much of myself to this process, but not delusionally or carelessly....stop and put it in perspective and be vigilant. Right?

Longest post of my life here.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

When I say, "earn her trust," I mean identify the ways she is insecure about you or the relationship, and prove to her she does not have to be.

For example, you said she felt attacked by you. Ask her to give examples. This will help you see how her mind works, and help you avoid doing those things in the future. 

You still need to be honest with her. But you can learn to do it in a way that does not make her feel attacked, or otherwise threatened. You might try asking her what would be a "safe" way for you to do that.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Taking a bullet for her means you are strong, not weak. Why ever would it make a man weak?

To me it is a sign of decency in a man.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

cinna,
I understand your reluctance to putting in any more efforts into this relationship. I don't think anybody can tell you that you didn't try hard enough.

Why don't you switch gears and invest emotionally in your daughter. Put your efforts in the one place you know you will get rewarded for your efforts.

Also, I've found that being super dad is the ultimate chick-magnet. :grin2:


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

jld said:


> When I say, "earn her trust," I mean identify the ways she is insecure about you or the relationship, and prove to her she does not have to be.
> 
> For example, you said she felt attacked by you. Ask her to give examples. This will help you see how her mind works, and help you avoid doing those things in the future.
> 
> You still need to be honest with her. But you can learn to do it in a way that does not make her feel attacked, or otherwise threatened. You might try asking her what would be a "safe" way for you to do that.


If one is dealing with a somewhat reasonable person, this might work. If she is not, it won't. If she is someone who "feels attacked" and threatened at literally nothing, due to her own skewed perception and dysfunction, there is no way to work with her. I was in a relationship post-divorce with a man like this. I could breathe... and his feelings were hurt. Impossible to have a functional, healthy, respectful relationship with someone who is always crying/playing the wronged victim.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

You're placing way to much of your happiness in this woman. She is NOT meeting your needs for intimacy. She "touches you a little" now. Are you getting passionate sex? 
She made you some oatmeal for breakfast. Uh, that's nothing but the smallest effort possible to try to keep the status quo.

This woman makes loads of money and wants you for an emotional security blanket, nothing more. Like an old lady with a puppy. 

What are you getting from this relationship? Write it down. I can write down what you are not getting.

Great sex
Affection in general
A wife who shows you without it being "work" that she loves you
A companion who looks forward to your arrival and can't wait to tell you about what's going on with their life.
A helpmate.

You have tried for years, even to the point of asking for outside help. 

My advice: Stay around long enough to see how WILLINGLY she gives affection. If she LOOKS FORWARD TO SEEING YOU.
It's simple, if you can't honestly say that your wife looks forward to seeing you, talking to you, and WANTS to make love to you-------- Hit the road and find a person that does. Who'd be truly happy living with a person who doesn't have those qualities?
You CAN find a woman that wants you, wants to have sex with you, wants to make you happy. And even if that ends, too, wouldn't you want it again for a while at least? What you're getting now is not a wife, you're getting a person who is just trying for the sake of not losing you, not trying because they WANT to do these things that you desire/need. I'd consider letting her goand look for the person who WANTS to give you what you need/desire. 

Lots of people say their wives or husbands cheated and turned into different people. They did. They stopped caring about their spouse, whereas before they led their entire life in a way that they showed they did care. 
How is your wife? Is she showing you she cares about YOU, or is she showing you she cares about staying married?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> If one is dealing with a somewhat reasonable person, this might work. If she is not, it won't. If she is someone who "feels attacked" and threatened at literally nothing, due to her own skewed perception and dysfunction, there is no way to work with her. I was in a relationship post-divorce with a man like this. I could breathe... and his feelings were hurt. Impossible to have a functional, healthy, respectful relationship with someone who is always crying/playing the wronged victim.


I would not have any patience with a man like that, either, Livvie. Glad you ended things.

I think there may still hope for this marriage if cinna can change. If he can earn her trust, they may be able to make it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Why can't you just move out, raise your daughter, and you and your wife continue therapy together. Each of you will learn to grow and fix yourself on your own, you'll both see you can survive on your own, which will allow you both to see that if you DO decide to get back together it will be because of desire, not need.

And I PROMISE YOU, if you cave and stay there, she will STOP WORKING ON ANYTHING. A month more, tops. She'll have won, you'll have proven your doormat status, and she will forget about you again.

You're making progress. Keep up that progress, in separate homes, so that she has a REASON to keep learning.

And in the meantime, read everything you can get your hands on about narcissism. I partnered with the spitting image of your wife and it is MADNESS. I finally had to quit because I was ending up crying and distraught nearly every single day. Logic simply doesn't work with them because they are ALL ABOUT their emotion of the day. This woman I partnered with would make the most ridiculous statements, all about how she wanted to FEEL about our work, nothing about how to make it happen. It got so bad that the people we were working with told me that if I left, they were leaving, too; they simply wouldn't work with the crazy. And they did.

Your wife is finally doing some real work. Don't stop that by caving now. You've come so far; tell her you're signing a six-month lease and the two of you can sit down at the end of the six months and see if things have improved enough for you and baby to move back home.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think a lot of you are missing the point that he has very little leverage in this relationship. 

She was ready to separate. He was the one who came to her basically asking to continue trying. If he had truly not wanted the relationship, he would not have come to her. He would have just moved on.

She accepted his efforts. But again, she was not the initiator.

That gal is going to be fine with him or without him. I think she is starting to get the self-confidence to realize that. Her willingness to separate, and her saying she may just not be "marriage material", seems to indicate that. 

I think she is very generous to be making the efforts she is making. Probably trying for her daughter's sake.

She will get over the embarrassment of being divorced, if it comes to that.

I just see very few hurdles to her becoming comfortable with accepting the end of the relationship.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

I feel as long as he has faith in himself and sets his boundaries clearly without waiver, a "Hail Mary" is an acceptable means to either place himself in a great position to be respected, or give the recognition that the game is over and nothing will change that while continuing the individual counseling to work on being as friendly as they can be for their daughter's sake.

Sometimes people are better friends apart than friends together... if they look to nothing else in this, they should see this in their daughter's eyes.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Evinrude58 said:


> You're placing way to much of your happiness in this woman. She is NOT meeting your needs for intimacy. She "touches you a little" now. Are you getting passionate sex?
> She made you some oatmeal for breakfast. Uh, that's nothing but the smallest effort possible to try to keep the status quo.
> 
> This woman makes loads of money and wants you for an emotional security blanket, nothing more. Like an old lady with a puppy.


Molecules. He is satisfied with getting leftover molecules. Many people learn to deal with only getting leftover crumbs, but in this case it isn't even crumbs, it is only molecules.

I think for some reason, probably going back to Family Of Origin, cinnabomb doesn't know or believe what is normal and acceptable. These little molecules are enough to keep him hoping for more.

My advice is to approach this similarly to a reconciliation from infidelity which we see on this forum. The situation is pretty extreme, so I don't think it wise or healthy to give yourself 100% to your wife yet. Someone mentioned setting a secret deadline, and I agree. Maybe 6 months, maybe only 3 months. You need to see consistently better behavior from your wife for that time before you consider unguarding your heart. She will have little back slides here and there, but the overall trend needs to be clearly positive. You need to be able to have honest open communications with her during that time.

You aren't freezing her out during that time, you are consciously not falling for her again until she has proven she has made true lasting changes. Even if she does make the changes, things may be too far down the road to save the marriage.

I think you should seek some IC for yourself. You are accepting truly unacceptable behavior in the marriage. You are not getting your needs met in any way.

I recommend the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Glover and the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" by Smith.


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## cinnabomb (Oct 23, 2014)

jld said:


> When I say, "earn her trust," I mean identify the ways she is insecure about you or the relationship, and prove to her she does not have to be.
> 
> For example, you said she felt attacked by you. Ask her to give examples. This will help you see how her mind works, and help you avoid doing those things in the future.
> 
> You still need to be honest with her. But you can learn to do it in a way that does not make her feel attacked, or otherwise threatened. You might try asking her what would be a "safe" way for you to do that.


Yep we talked about this and she finally admit that most of her sensitivity is actually HER issue, not mine. I always talk in a calm and respectful way. She hears criticism about EVERYTHING and it can be very hard. She is slowly learning, understanding that she has issues with this. Even just last night this happened. I made everyone dinner, wife, daughter, friend, nanny. After dinner, as always, I am left to do dishes by myself. In a decade wife has almost never helped with dishes. Ok, but here is us trying to be better: She wanted to wrap some gifts for xmas and left her plate etc and went and started doing that but then actually said 'do you need help with dishes" after i was about halfway done. Well I did and I said "yea i could use some help". She never got up and helped so my friend helped me. 

Later that night I brought it up in bed, saying I could have used help with those dishes. She claims she never heard me. Granted we were playing music, it was a bit loud, and she definitely is absentminded....perhaps she didnt hear because she was distracted, perhaps because she didnt want to or even care. I dont know. So I brought up up and instantly she became a little agressive and defensive and didnt say sorry. Classic cycle. This is the start of every argument ever. She does something selfish or inconsiderate and then wont be compassionate or apologetic in any way and that makes me hurt and resentful. So I sat and waited and then finally she said "sorry that i made you feel that way". I asked her to stop what she was doing "using a massage tool on herself" and spend a moment with me, touching me, so that I feel like she DOES care. 

For awhile it was looking like it would be another argument because she was getting triggered as usual, and I explained to her that in this instance, it might have very well been JUST a miscommunication, but I asked why for all these years she has never helped with dishes. She said she didnt even know that I needed help. I said I have brought it up a number of times so I cant see why you didnt. She said I need to communicate it better. Kind of a neverending cycle you see? BUt in the end we got through it ok and she dropped it and engaged with me a bit. I had to try, to see what she would respond with. This is really hard. 
@jld so you see she is making progress on this, but slowly. I cannot do much more than I have with earning her trust. I have done EVERYTHING asked of me, by her, by the MC. I changed the way I communicate, everything. I am still trying and changing. Its HER issue. Its hard. about the bullet comment, a lot of people think I am weak for still wanting to love her and be there for her, after all the hurt and pain she put me through. Thats why I said that. about narcissism, whats the point in reading about it? How will that help me?
@KillerClown yes youre right I put a lot into my wife but I put a ton into my daughter too. Im a good father, super loving and engaged, I make custom things like a 2 story play house out of cardboard, for her constantly. She is great but she still loves mom more because she is close with her and still breasfeeding at 2.5 years old. 
@Livvie yep this has been the source of our trouble from the start. she has NOT been reasonable for a long time. it was impossible. I did what I could to save it time after time but now I realize how insane that all was, dealing with someone who simply couldnt see herself our outside her own experience. 
@Evinrude youre right. 100%. It makes me sad to even read that list knowing its what I want and get none of it. I'm giving her a chance right now....that's all I can do. But it's really ahrd because sometimes there is nothing there, and other times I see a glimmer of hope/love, and it reels me back in for another month, another year. 

Lastly @turnera I made it clear that I'm not interested in that. Let me put it in a way that you may understand. Despite the hurt, the neglect, the abuse....and this may sound crazy....I still LIVE for that family feel each day. Waking up and snuggling with our girl in the bed every morning. Same thing in the evening. PLaying music and cooking food for everyone, watching the game together, whatever. It may not be totally real, or fulfilling, but its all I have and I still look forward to it. If I am to live separated, alone, seeing my girl only half as much, not seeing my wife anymore or being touched at ALL by her anymore, well then I cant do it. I just cant. I need love and affection and intimacy and I will go find it. Also, what is the point? If we cant make it work under the same roof do you honestly think it would work separately? No way. Not with my wife. She doesnt truly WANT to compromise, or be asked for things, or told that she did something hurtful. If she had her own place things may seem on the surface like there is self-improvement, but if we moved back in together after, it would all be the same issues. I dont see the point. If we separate, then thats it as far as I am concerned. Dont get me wrong....if she calls, I will pick up the phone...tomorrow, a year from now, whatever. I love her and always will. But at the same time I am not waiting around for her to come around.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

cinnabomb said:


> about narcissism, whats the point in reading about it? How will that help me?


It will help you a LOT! It helps you understand WHY they do what they do, it helps you see it happening in front of your eyes, it helps you read about ways to deflect it successfully, it helps you keep from triggering and getting emotional about something she does without even realizing she's doing it. Knowledge is power.



> She is great but she still loves mom more because she is close with her and still breasfeeding at 2.5 years old.


That's typical of little girls. They DO go through cycles of attachment. Yours will come a few years later, usually.



> I'm giving her a chance right now....that's all I can do. But it's really hard because sometimes there is nothing there, and other times I see a glimmer of hope/love, and it reels me back in for another month, another year.


That's why you set a timeline. Even Dr. Harley says to set a timeline for 'working on it.' 



> Lastly @turnera I made it clear that I'm not interested in that. Let me put it in a way that you may understand. Despite the hurt, the neglect, the abuse....and this may sound crazy....I still LIVE for that family feel each day. Waking up and snuggling with our girl in the bed every morning. Same thing in the evening. PLaying music and cooking food for everyone, watching the game together, whatever. It may not be totally real, or fulfilling, but its all I have and I still look forward to it. If I am to live separated, alone, seeing my girl only half as much, not seeing my wife anymore or being touched at ALL by her anymore, well then I cant do it. I just cant.


I assume you're not talking about killing yourself. You said yourself that you won't make it if you invest in her again and get hurt. Separate homes will give you both a reason to WORK on this but with boundaries so you don't fall down that rabbit hole. If you're saying you'll never get back with her if you walk out the door, well, that's just an asinine thing to say. And you don't even KNOW that's true. That's no different from people who say 'if he cheats I'll never speak to him again.' You just don't know.

What I DO know is if you continue to do everything and not push issues, she will never get it, she will never change. So...start with the dishes tomorrow night. While it's fresh in her mind that you DO expect help.


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## cinnabomb (Oct 23, 2014)

UPDATE - Being that its the holidays and we have family staying with us, its been pretty hectic, lot of distractions, etc. We havent been alone, just me and her, at all for a couple weeks, so it's hard to even get a sense of our dynamic. But I will say that I see her trying to do things differently, be more attentive, try to help out here and there. Still some frustrations of course, but some nice things as well that I dont want to take for granted. Whether they will be there after NY when everyone leaves, only time will tell. 

Also, I have been trying to not suppress myself with sharing feelings, emotions, hurt, frustrations. I have brought up two things in the last 2 weeks that I felt hurt by. She still has an automatic trigger to defensiveness and its clear that she doesnt as easily try to understand a different perspective than her own, but both times she actually apologized for what she did/said without yelling or leaving, etc. Its progress. Shes trying. 

The couple issues I wanted to ask you guys about are these:

1. If I dont bring up talking about us, about serious matters, she never will without MC. I am done with MC for now as I stated before, so it can be a little hard and frustrating to always have to be the "bad guy" bringing up things, such as "can we sit and talk a bit about this week, things that were good, bad, things we need to work on, etc?". It's not an easy conversation to have, even harder to bring up when you fear that she may be on edge, aggressive, defensive, whatever. 

So far we only did it once but afterwards she said thanks for bringing it up because she knows its hard and its good that we talk more. I wish she would also make it a priority, not just watch tv every night as if everything is fine when it isnt. I hate always being the one who has to step up to the plate and lead us, and I get that as a man I need to lead often, but it would be nice to feel like she cares as much as I do and isnt just "going with the flow". Advice?

2. Sex. Still havent had it this year. In my written email to her I told her this is a big priority for me and that the lack of it makes me frustrated, resentful, unhappy. She said that until she feels "safe" etc she isnt comfortable with it. I put myself out there in a big way about a week ago and attempted to initiate once, first time in over 6 months, and she rejected me, but in fairness she was on her period and not feeling well (which I didnt know at the time). But she also didnt say anythign like "oh how about after my period" or "oh im sorry" or anything. It was sort of rejecting like always. 

And after all the hurt it's really hard for me to even get to a point where I want to have sex with her. Really hard. It could be a month before I feel ready again. Deep down I believe that she will never be able to fulfill me sexually. She has never initiated in 10 years. She doesnt give oral. Even the sex itself isnt great. She wont take birth control so I have to use a condom. All things that make it less fulfilling for me. It sucks because I could potentially see other aspects of our marriage improving, but this one...I'm not sure, and it's a big one for me. I've been sexually frustrated for nearly a decade. It sucks to live like that. So the question is....can a marriage even work if the sex isnt there or isnt fulfilling, if other aspects are???


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

cinnabomb said:


> Sex. Still havent had it this year. In my written email to her I told her this is a big priority for me and that the lack of it makes me frustrated, resentful, unhappy. She said that until she feels "safe" etc she isnt comfortable with it. ... Deep down I believe that she will never be able to fulfill me sexually. *She has never initiated in 10 years. She doesnt give oral. Even the sex itself isnt great. *She wont take birth control so I have to use a condom. All things that make it less fulfilling for me. It sucks because I could potentially see other aspects of our marriage improving, but this one...I'm not sure, and it's a big one for me.* I've been sexually frustrated for nearly a decade.* It sucks to live like that. So the question is....can a marriage even work if the sex isnt there or isnt fulfilling, if other aspects are???


Sure, a marriage can be very fulfilling for a couple who have the same sex drive; namely, low or none. I actually know a couple like this. They've been married - and happily - for over 31 years. Neither of them were all that into sex when they dated, and it followed through to their marriage.

But you? Nope. You are selling yourself short, my friend. She won't initiate. Won't do oral. Sounds like obligatory vanilla sex to me. She doesn't initiate conversations about emotionally-laden issues either. Wow. Talk about detached. Your marriage reminds me of a guy dragging a dead whale across the beach.

I couldn't stay in a relationship like yours. Actually, I WAS in a marriage with similarities to yours. My husband NEVER brought up anything that bothered him. I got the silent treatment and that was it. There were some sexual issues, but for the most part he at least initiated and was a good sex partner.

However, SOMETHING is keeping you in this relationship. Frankly, I'm scratching my head over this one.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

cinnabomb said:


> @*barbados*. I think youre wrong. She is scared, confused, and hurting too. She is protecting herself too. She has a lot of baggage and lost her way VERY much so in hollywood. Her mother was neglectful and awful role model. This isnt all her fault Its about having some understanding and compassion for peoples own history, baggage, demons. Maybe it still doesnt work for me and my marriage, but that doesnt mean she is evil or anything. I love her deeply. Even after all this Id take a bullet for her. Its how I am and I dont give a flying F if you think that makes me weak or a pu$$y. It's how I was raised and I want to look back on my life and know that I was a good man. And the truth is, I DO have the strength to leave if I have to. It will hurt like hell but I was DAYS away from signing that lease. I can be again.


And that's one of the biggest reasons WHY you've been miserable for 7 years.

How many friggen *excuses *are you going to MAKE for her sh*t behavior for the last 7 years? You think she's the only one on earth who had a bad upbringing? 

Barbados is absolutely right.

You'll be right back to the 'same old same old' within a year.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Prodigal said:


> Your marriage reminds me of a guy dragging a dead whale across the beach.


Finally, something worthy of replacing my sig. :smthumbup:


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

@Futs - Thanks! I certainly don't consider myself a writer of pithy sayings. But I think we can both agree that the OP'er is doing the dead-whale-drag when it comes to his marriage.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

It appears to me that your wife is not trying to be part of a healthy marriage. She is doing the very bare minimum to keep you from leaving her. If your wife was serious about having a happy mariage for both of you, things would not be horrible like this. She's throwing your crumbs and you consider that progress? It's not progress. Not at all.


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## cinnabomb (Oct 23, 2014)

I don't know that I agree. She is genuinely trying. She is in therapy, IC, trying to be a better person. I see her making small efforts. It's hard for her. She had a **** role model of a mother. She runs a company. She is the primary caregiver of a baby that she is still breastfeeding after nearly 3 years. I'm not making excuses, I'm being understanding. There is a difference. Some people think leaving their spouse over a tiny thing is the way to go but I don't. I want to give it all I've got and the truth is I love her deeply and don't want to be without her. 

But that being said, where do you draw the line? I mean, you can't possibly expect 100% of a marriage to be fulfilling and happy. That's not realistic. So then where is the line? For some purposes, family life around the house is pretty good, mostly because of our wonderful little girl. We have some nice friends and make nice memories with them and their kids. But I feel deeply unfulfilled. My wife doesn't show me any kind of true affection, love, or passion. Forget intimacy or sex. (In all fairness I'm still so hurt I don't even think I want that from her yet). 

I cant remember a single time she sat down next to me without her laptop and just talked to me. In the last 7 years or so. She is connected to her screens, just like her mom. We've talked about it but it continues, she always has work, and when she doesn't have work she just mindlessly browses for clothes. I am tired of nagging her to connect with me. I'm so tired of it. When will she be the bigger person, try something different, and try to connect? 

I see her doing little things, like she starting making me a little breakfast from time to time. She hasnt cooked for me in 15 years so this is something. And she is touching me more, asking about my day, etc. And I have to say it sort of breaks my heart. I wish she had started trying these things 8 years ago. Even still, I see her trying, but inside, it's hard to give much back. I smile I say thank you, but inside I feel hurt, scarred, still. 

And the truth is I feel so unfulfilled in a number of aspects that I don't know if this will work. I don't think it will. It hurts me to think about this. It floods me with guilt, like "am I a bad person? Are my expectations too high?". I dont think they are at all, but I cant help feeling that way (yes I am a 100% stereotypical "Nice Guy" and that's not a great thing). 

So I feel completely stuck in limbo. Too guilty, too afraid, too weak and codependent to separate from her and explore the world to see if there is more out there....someone that would treat me like they enjoy being around me, like they find me attractive, like they truly love me. I don't want to make a mistake, I don't want to let down my friends and family and baby girl. I dont want my wife to miss me and be lonely because she doesnt have the foresight to see where this is going. 

And yet I'm also too unfulfilled, too hurt, too resentful, too scared to fully commit to us anymore as well, to open my heart to her again. I'm really having a hard time, I feel like my heart is wrenched out of me and I don't know what to do. 

Some people told me to leave her a year ago, while things were horrible and we were in therapy. Well I now know that would have been a huge mistake. Those people were wrong. We would have separated on horrible terms, full of anger, resentment, and lack of understanding. After nearly 2 years of therapy, we are in a better place. We understand each other more, our flaws, our shortcomings, and it's not so much about anger, but about a fundamental understanding that we are different people than we were (her much more so than me and she admits that), and that she simply may not be capable of giving me what I want. I don't even feel angry about that....I feel bad for her actually. She's doing the best she can with what her F-ed up parents gave her. I feel awful for her. But at the end of the day, how much more can I take, being invisible, being unloved?

This is the honest truth.
how do you know what the right decision is?


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Sounds like she is giving bread crumbs and your waving a flag touting improvements and making excuses for the rest....if this works for you then maybe in another year you will have somewhat of a marriage, again except with out the sex. Sooner or later you have to fish or cut bait....right now all you have is a couple tugs on the line....and hate to say this but that ain't fishing.


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