# When does a EA actually become a PA?



## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

So,anyones thoughts on this?
I know betrayal is betrayal but what makes it a PA?
Is there a "line" that makes it a PA?
Is a kiss a PA?
Just wondering everones views on this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

Any physical contact that has romantic intentions.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I'd say the moment physical contact is made is when it becomes a PA. But I can understand that it could get fuzzy, because if the PA part is nothing more than kissing and groping, then was it really just as bad as your spouse getting naked and having hours of sex with the AP? I suppose there would need to be a PA continuum for rating the severity of the PA. I already know what some will say - it's yes or no, not shades of gray. And I don't dispute that. When physical touch is involved is when an affair goes physical IMO. However, there are degrees of severity that some people can overcome and some people won't be able to overcome it. But therein lies the twist. Some BS's can look past a multi-year affair and attempt R. Others can't handle the idea of their spouse kissing another person and will make a b-line towards divorce. 

Interesting thread to ponder though.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I'd say the moment physical contact is made is when it becomes a PA. But I can understand that it could get fuzzy, because if the PA part is nothing more than kissing and groping, then was it really just as bad as your spouse getting naked and having hours of sex with the AP? I suppose there would need to be a PA continuum for rating the severity of the PA. I already know what some will say - it's yes or no, not shades of gray. And I don't dispute that. When physical touch is involved is when an affair goes physical IMO. However, there are degrees of severity that some people can overcome and some people won't be able to overcome it. But therein lies the twist. Some BS's can look past a multi-year affair and attempt R. Others can't handle the idea of their spouse kissing another person and will make a b-line towards divorce.
> 
> Interesting thread to ponder though.


Yes,I think it varies from how involed and how "far" the WS went,did they wake up in time before it got real bad?
What is "real bad"? 
I guess that would be up to every BS's interpitation of the "line".
No matter how you slice it,it hurts butttt I think your right,there are different degrees of pain,everyone has their own threshold.
Just wondering what y'all think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HarryDoyle (Jan 19, 2013)

Very subjective. I would have to say any sexual contact. But even that's subjective, just ask Bill Clinton. Unfortunately my WW left no doubt.

"Depends on what your definition of 'is' is."


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Opportunity. The only difference between doing someone in one's mind and doing someone for real is opportunity.


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## still.hurting (Dec 10, 2012)

calvin said:


> So,anyones thoughts on this?
> I know betrayal is betrayal but what makes it a PA?
> Is there a "line" that makes it a PA?
> Is a kiss a PA?
> ...


I was wondering the same question...
My H had a ONS about 6 years ago and then 1.5 years ago had a very sexual texting & phoning affair for 7 months... Would that class as a PA? They did video chat sex everyday...!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

I would say that it crosses the boundary of an EA when there's sensuous physical touch or kissing.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

calvin said:


> So,anyones thoughts on this?
> I know betrayal is betrayal but what makes it a PA?
> Is there a "line" that makes it a PA?
> Is a kiss a PA?
> ...


I believe a kiss turns an affair physical. Now there are all kinds of kisses. But a passinate kiss is sexual.

Holding hands counts too.

But basically this takes an EA beyond and EA.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

IMHO, first base crosses the line into a PA because then it's no longer only emotional. Physical contact. Next thing you know, there's a creampie. That's what adults do. And if they were only limited to kissing or holding hands, it's only because they haven't yet had the opportunity.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> IMHO, first base crosses the line into a PA.


Just like in moneyball ... it does not matter whether it is a walk or hit ... if you can get on base.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxJ0PGSJ-Uc


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Another thought on this - what about explicit cybersex and sexting between two EA partners? It isn't physical, but it's certainly sexual...


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## martyc47 (Oct 20, 2011)

I remember talking to my therapist about this, while my wife was in an EA. I was trying to come up with that "line" myself. She said "I know what my boundaries would be, but you have to decide for yourself."

Abstractly, I would say any physical touching that a married person should not do with a non-spouse. I would probably say kissing. Some will say anything up to PiV is not "technically cheating," but I think that's a pretty permissive threshold.


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## still.hurting (Dec 10, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> Another thought on this - what about explicit cybersex and sexting between two EA partners?


EXACTLY what I'm trying the define...!
See my H and his ex affair girl, definitely would have done the deed if they lived closer to one another, instead they did the next best thing and had video chat/ sexting, they both would comment how close they felt to each other 'like they were actually with each other in the same room...'

EA or PA, either of them can cause the same amount of pain for the victimized spouse, and family...!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

The person sexting or cybering...if the person on the other end of the conversation suddenly appeared in the flesh before them and they were given free reign, what would they do? The betrayal has happened between their ears and anyone who would do it over the phone would do it in person, given the chance. Genitals are just added accessories.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

still.hurting said:


> EXACTLY what I'm trying the define...!
> See my H and his ex affair girl, definitely would have done the deed if they lived closer to one another, instead they did the next best thing and had video chat/ sexting, they both would comment how close they felt to each other 'like they were actually with each other in the same room...'
> 
> EA or PA, either of them can cause the same amount of pain for the victimized spouse, and family...!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is going to sound weird, perhaps, but if my SO were to have an EA, he may as well have a PA as well. For me, the damage to the relationship would be the same as if he had...


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

When people here ask questions like that, they often assume EA is not as bad as PA. Truth is, to the betrayed there's no big difference, just as degrees of murder don't make much difference to a victim.

My wife had a PA without much emotional component, but I doubt it'd feel a iota better if she was "only" found professing love to a stranger and sh*ttalking me behind my back.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

TBH, this is a very difficult question to answer. Even a kiss can be somewhat subjective. Was it a peck or a full blown slobbery kiss. It also depends on what happened after. A kiss and then no more physical contact or a kiss with the intention of more later. If I were slipping into a romantic relationship and kissed but immediately felt it was wrong somehow and didn't let it go further I could feel good in that I ended the progression. I'm probably rambling but you know what I mean?


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> Another thought on this - what about explicit cybersex and sexting between two EA partners? It isn't physical, but it's certainly sexual...


To me phone sex or cyber sex would constitute a PA. Mutually shared sexual experience that release a dopamine and endorphine response.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Simple answer about the PA line being crossed is to think of your spouse standing behind you...would you do what you're doing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kcguy (Nov 15, 2010)

Sorry, I can't pass this one. Is this Bill Clinton? Didn't you learn in front of Congress that when you put a penis in a womans mouth, that's oral sex? Didn't your parents ever talk to you bout the birds and the bees? That means sex. I think this is a common sense question. When the 2 people involved rub their private parts together, or kiss, hold hands, do anything a boyfriend and girlfriend would to show affections and one or both of them are married or involved with someone else, that's called a physical affair and showing emotion. 2 people can have intimate relations not with their partner that they should be having with their partners and not touch physcially. When they start to cross the line of physical touch to bring the relationship closer and more intimate like 2 people who are dating, it's the same process. The word affair, is just a coined term to identify the relationship as not appropiate period. My EW, would think as long as she wasn't having sex, flirting, EA's, all of it WAS NOT any form of betrayal, and I had a problem because I would get angry. BUT>> She would get jealous, if I did anything she though remotely close to what she was doing.. LOL. Which I wasn't. Because I know the difference. I didn't need to do it. Sorry, I'm not trying to be insensative here, it just brought up crap my EW used to pull to justify her BS. If your spouse is trying to sell you a bag of $h*t here and try to say one is better than the other, really? Both, are just as bad, both are wrong, and betrayal. What's to stop them from going all the way of they are willing to let someon else into that sacred ground that is only supposed to be for the spouse, when we said we would and will forsake all others. I think it's really common sense here..


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

After spending time here, I have come to believe that initiating a passionate, open mouth tongue kiss is the announcement of "I see myself having sex with you in the near future." And accepting such kiss sends the message "I do, too."


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I came to the above conclusion because it was one of the turning points in my fiance's EA. He went in for the kiss and he admitted to me it was passionate. He admitted that she rejected him. Then a few hours after it happened, I saw a text from her in which she accused him of leading her on.

Because my fiance refused to make another date with her and told her that he was waiting to speak to me, he believes that she accused him of leading her on because she wanted me from the relationship. I think it's more like she was pissed off to learn that the guy who once insisted that they were "just friends" was no longer content to be so.


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## still.hurting (Dec 10, 2012)

bfree said:


> To me phone sex or cyber sex would constitute a PA. Mutually shared sexual experience that release a dopamine and endorphine response.


I agree with you... I think this becomes a PA when they both are pleasuring themselves together, at the same time, thinking of each other while they are doing it and telling each other that they love one and other... So IMO, this is where I think it 'crosses the line' from EA to PA. In my case, the only reason my H and his [email protected] didn't get the 'opportunity' to touch each other in the flesh is because they lived too far way from each other, so they had to do the next best thing. But guaranteed every Saturday morning they would have their cyber sex date, without fail!

I'm not saying PA's worse than EA's, my H has done both betrayals on me, & the last affair I'm still trying to justify which category (EA or PA) the affair fits into? Either either, both ways cuts your heart the same...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brokenhearted118 (Jan 31, 2013)

snap said:


> When people here ask questions like that, they often assume EA is not as bad as PA. *Truth is, to the betrayed there's no big difference, just as degrees of murder don't make much difference to a victim.*
> 
> 
> Wow, I could have never said it better myself. Murder is Murder and Betrayal is Betrayal! They both cut like a knife to your core.
> ...


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## BackOnTrack (Oct 25, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> After spending time here, I have come to believe that initiating a passionate, open mouth tongue kiss is the announcement of "I see myself having sex with you in the near future." And accepting such kiss sends the message "I do, too."


:iagree:

I was the WS. Once the EA developed to that point, the kiss was the point that any barriers remaining had collapsed entirely. For me, it was the point of no return and only a matter of time before sex would occur.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

BackOnTrack said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I was the WS. Once the EA developed to that point, the kiss was the point that any barriers remaining had collapsed entirely. For me, it was the point of no return and only a matter of time before sex would occur.


Funny...before I found out about my wife's affair, we both liked the band The Killers and we liked the song "Mr. Brightside".

I hate that song now even though I like the song.

"It started out with a kiss
How did it end up like this
It was only a kiss, it was only a kiss"


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## BackOnTrack (Oct 25, 2011)

SomedayDig said:


> Funny...before I found out about my wife's affair, we both liked the band The Killers and we liked the song "Mr. Brightside".
> 
> I hate that song now even though I like the song.
> 
> ...


Ironically, I remember a time when listening to that song made me feel the jealousy and pain that the guy was expressing. Little did I know that I would eventually be the one to cause someone else to feel that pain.


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## All of a sudden (Jan 24, 2013)

Even holding hands shows intimacy. Imho


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

All of a sudden said:


> Even holding hands shows intimacy. Imho


that's true. I don't hold hands or hang on to the elbow of "just a friend."


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Sucks, but I’ve had to classify them in my head... For me, the closest I could get; the fine line was drawn between a couple kisses goodnight (still EA) and a make-out session (PA land). 

What seemed to keep an EA from being a PA is one or both just not having the courage to make a physical move; The kiss. The intent and “yes” was always there, but not the will power to be the one who took it there. I write it off to just further blameshifting where they can tell themselves they didn’t mean to do this... “it just happened”. (and fear of getting caught doing something “wrong”).

Additional thoughts: I’ve had to “triage” what ones bother me the most and deal with those. That was a lot more helpful than trying to shove it into a tidy little labeled box. 

For instance; My wife and female co-worker, had a make-out / groping session at a club a few times. Attention seeking is the “why” (they liked the boys staring at them). They were close friends. EA? PA? Or just really bad boundaries? Giggles? Attention from others? I just know there wasn’t a strong emotional or physical draw to each other that would be something I’d worry about in the future. It bothers me more than her flashing guys, but a lot less than sexting. So that’s sort of how I place them in my head for “how bad”. And I seek out the “why” to see if she’s working on those things...


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

No offense to many in here, and I'm not minimizing the damage caused by EA's. But PA = "physical affair". By definition, there's physical contact. So cybersex or phone sex does not constitute a physical affair. 

Now, I WOULD say that if you wanted to talk "sexual affair" instead of "physical affair", then cybersex and phone sex would be grouped together with PIV, kissing, etc. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

The EA/PA line is largely crossed whenever any physical contact is entered into with someone, that under ordinary circumstances, is emblematic of a physical gesture that is exclusively reserved for a spouse or a significant other.

But by and large, by the time that a PA actually happens, all, if not the vast majority, of romantic emotionality that is normally directed toward the spouse has long been transferred over to the new romantic interest, thereby suggestive that the original relationship has already been all but dealt a death blow, well before any illicit physical activity ever comes to occur between the cheating partners in this newfound relationship of theirs!


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

arbitrator said:


> The EA/PA line is largely crossed whenever any physical contact is entered into with someone, that under ordinary circumstances, is emblematic of a physical gesture that is exclusively reserved for a spouse or a significant other.
> 
> But by and large, by the time that a PA actually happens, all, if not the vast majority, of romantic emotionality that is normally directed toward the spouse has long been transferred to the new romantic interest, thereby suggestive that the original relationship has already been all but been dealt a death blow well before any illicit physical activity ever occurs between the cheating partners in their newfound relationship!


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

Spot on and put in context. Nice.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

PBear said:


> No offense to many in here, and I'm not minimizing the damage caused by EA's. But PA = "physical affair". By definition, there's physical contact. So cybersex or phone sex does not constitute a physical affair.
> 
> Now, I WOULD say that if you wanted to talk "sexual affair" instead of "physical affair", then cybersex and phone sex would be grouped together with PIV, kissing, etc.
> 
> ...


Yes, I agree. We have to include "sexual affair". 

Phone sex, sexting, cybersex, seuxal emails ... all are cheating but do not involve physical touch.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Yes, I agree. We have to include * "sexual affair".*
> 
> Phone sex, sexting, cybersex, sexual emails ... all are cheating but do not involve physical touch.


Spot on, Entrop! We direly need to add that third category, *SA*, to the mix! It just makes so much more sense!


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Can't use SA... as it currently stands for "Serial Adulterer".


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Racer said:


> Can't use SA... as it currently stands for "Serial Adulterer".


XA?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Racer said:


> Can't use SA... as it currently stands for "Serial Adulterer".


*May I propose "SxA" provided it's not taken?*


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## GoodForNothing (Feb 25, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Opportunity. The only difference between doing someone in one's mind and doing someone for real is opportunity.


Yes, this is a huge part of the issue I have with my wife's EA and some of the other "situations" she's been in. She's admitted on several occasions that the thing that prevented one or more of these situations from becoming physical was just that it never happened, no opportunity, etc. Small comfort knowing that going to happy hour at the wrong time, I'm out of town, or whatever would have resulted in an EA being a PA.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

The habitual lingo will always fail short.
For now we label EA many different things: from non romantic, obsessive contact and oversharing info plus metting no evident "emotional needs" to mushy romantic soulmates speech with no sexual inuendos to "just" cibersex/sex chats/role playing...


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

Cheating in thought, looks, words, are all forms of cheating. Physical consummation is a matter of time, depending on urge, opportunity.

Intention is the deciding factor.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

arbitrator said:


> *May I propose "SxA" provided it's not taken?*


Lol... no "x" either as that sort of insinuates it's "ex" as in past. Same with "f" as in former. Might I suggest:

(_|_)A or (8==D~o)A or (o)(o)A?


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## Tynan (Mar 8, 2013)

Just another thought on the subject- Does one outrank the other? Not sure if any affair can be considered worse? Some would rather their spouse have sex than be in love and some would actualy not care as long as their spouse didn't touch the other person. Very subjective, that!
Ty


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Racer said:


> Lol... no "x" either as that sort of insinuates it's "ex" as in past. Same with "f" as in former. Might I suggest:
> 
> (_|_)A or (8==D~o)A or (o)(o)A?


*Guess you're right, Racer! My acronym simply cannot work primarily because of what I'm recalling from my high school algebra days~

SxA = SA*


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> *Guess you're right, Racer! My acronym simply cannot work primarily because of what I'm recalling from my high school algebra days~
> 
> SxA = SA*


What about SC (sexual content)?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> What about SC (sexual content)?


* How about the usage of the term"carnal affair"*?

*Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines carnal* as: (1) bodily; corporeal (2)[a] marked by sexuality, * relating to or given to crude bodily pleasures and appetites**

Let's just go with CA then!

Seems to be more than appropriate, unless of course, that term or acronym is in conflict with something else that is currently being used!*


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> *Let's just go with **CA** then!*


Californication?


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

I think an EA is a PA waiting to happen. Once it's a secret, it's a PA. The WH and PA are the only ones that know it and know who they are and what they want. There is no innocence in secrecy. If you think it, you did it. If you get caught and exposed before you do it, you will do it again armed with more knowledge of how to do it with someone else on a more secret level. My 2 pennies.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

SaltInWound said:


> Any physical contact that has romantic intentions.


I was going to say the same thing after I read the first post.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

HarryDoyle said:


> Very subjective. I would have to say any sexual contact. But even that's subjective, just ask Bill Clinton. Unfortunately my WW left no doubt.
> 
> "Depends on what your definition of 'is' is."


What Clinton said was a lawyer speaking to beat the rap.

What is sadder is if Clinton actually believed what he was saying was morally and legally right.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

bfree said:


> Californication?


If that's truly the case, *bfree*, then there must have been an inordinate amount of migration from California over to the Lone Star State! That *CA* disease just seems to be running rampant here!


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## Yessongs72 (Dec 6, 2012)

when they are together in a hotel room we can safely say the EA has morphed into a PA


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Honestly, though, Calvin... though we have, essentially, come up with another acronym for an other aspect of affairs, it is still subjective. For instance, you and I might agree that the moment they lock lips, it has become physical. Yet someone else may say the kiss doesn't do it...it's when genitals are touched, whether oral, anal, or PIV. Some may say it's physical if they are sexting or they have phone/cybersex. Still others would say that no, that would be under the "blanket" of EA. See what I mean? I guess, when someone comes on here saying "My spouse cheated." We just need to suss out (yea, I know! The word suss just popped into my head! LOL) what way they lean regarding physical vs emotional. There is no wrong answer to it, either. We all agree that ANY form of affair is cheating and causes a LOT of damage to the marriage.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I'd been drinking heavily with my EA AP for some time. Looking back on it, I think we were both drunks. I was drinking heavily to forget my wife's affair and I do not know why my EA AP was drinking heavily. She never shared that with me, but it was clear she was troubled.

We started flirting and then somehow the flirting stopped being a game. 

We were going to have sex. And unprotected sex at that. Why unprotected? I think that I was having a split mind thing. If I'd bought condoms to have protected sex with my AP, then I would have realised I planned to cheat on my wife and could not have gone ahead with it. Weird, I know.

It got 'heated' but seconds before we were to do the deed all my compartmentalisation suddenly came crashing down and the affair ended, cold, at that moment.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

theroad said:


> What Clinton said was a lawyer speaking to beat the rap.
> 
> What is sadder is if Clinton actually believed what he was saying was morally and legally right.


He did. It was his cheater's compartmentalisation.

I remember a sudden unguarded moment, when Hilary was caught on camera talking to her pastor. The look on her face was a look a lot of BSs know all too well. It was a look of pain and of: "Well, what do I do, now?"


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Regarding what Clinton famously said, it is worth noting that many state laws define rape only as PIV. Anyother penetration such oral sex, including forcing a woman to give a blow job is downgraded to "sexual assault."

I am aware of this from having read about a date rape trial at St. John's U. in Queens in the 90s. the female student declared that she was raped but detailed that the male classmates forced her to perform oral sex. It was actually sexual assault legally speaking........ and geve the defense attorney the soundbyte to call her a liar.

I for one believe that oral sex is more intimate than other types of genital contact. So now I've never offered to do it on the second date or think of it as the equivalent of a handshake as I read that some 20 somethings seem to think.


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