# Boundaries for friendships with opposite sex



## Jdwino92

My wife and I have been married for four years and together for almost 8 years. I’ve always been into politics and current events a good deal more than my wife. Within the past two years I have increasingly become more involved, spending more time talking to people online, researching and reading what’s going on in the world, learning new ideas and concepts, and meeting new people becoming involved new groups. 

In this pursuit I have made some new friends. I talk to them regularly, I’d say every day or most days. One of the friends is a girl is in the same beat up group I joined. We talk on a fairly consistent basis as well, all of our talks are pertaining to politics and religion as we have similar in a broad sense but different when it comes down to the nitty-gritty beliefs and perspectives on these subjects. I’m a very extroverted person, I have a desire/need to talk to people, to express my thoughts and try to work our problems in my Head by talking to a lot of people. 

My wife has voiced that she isn’t comfortable with my friendship with this woman. I have asked her to explain and she says it’s intuition, and that she does trust me not to do anything but that something just makes her feel icky. 

I want to respect and listen to my wife but I don’t see the situation the same. I think friendships with the opposite sex are fine so long as they appropriate. I don’t hang out with this woman at all, I only see her in person at the group meet ups (where she comes with her boyfriend). I’m not hiding our conversations from my wife. I don’t ignore my wife to talk to this woman. My wife and I have two young kids, she stays homeand she views her job as being a mom, which I love - and we are going to home school. I have a full time job that takes sometimes a fair amount of overtime hours. Between kids and work we don’t get tons of time but we try, we have a weekly date night and I try my best to call her and text her throughout the day, it varies obviously depending on a lot of factors. Sometimes she tries to reach me and I’m busy, sometimes I want to talk to her and she’s busy. 

My wife doesn’t have the same passion for politics and philosophy that I have, she will have talks with me frequently but not ironically we agree on a lot of things as we are married. And I love to talk to her but I also value talking to a lot of people and also people who disagree with me. This other woman is someone who also likes to talk a lot about these subjects, and has a different enough perspective. And she really doesn’t dispute this, she sees our conversations and they are 98% politics and religion and philosophy. I consider her a friend, not a best friend or super close frowns but a friend all the same. 

My wife and I are at odds over this friendship I have with this woman. She thinks I should trust her intuition and respect her request to stop talking to this woman or at least drastically decrease how much I talk to her. My concern is that there is something deeper motivating my wife’s response and concern, and I also am weary of walking the line between respect and having some measure of my own will. I tell her I respectfully disagree with her concerns, and while she might disagree with me saying so, I think if this woman was a man, just had different genitalia, there wouldn’t be an issue. 

Also, it sounds shallow to even bring this up, but for full disclosure, I’m not attracted to this women sexually at all. I don’t want to be rude and disparage her, I’m sure some people find her attractive. I don’t. My wife agrees and doesn’t think I’m sexually attracted but thinks it’s more of an emotional affair or something akin to it. Or that it isn’t that I’m doing anything inappropriate, but that my wife has an intuition I should trust. 

My wife’s mother and grandmother have failed marriages and were cheated on. My wife’s high school boyfriend cheated on her too. She also suffers from anxiety. I don’t want to dismiss my wife’s thoughts as being merely the result of all of these things but I wonder to what degree they might factor in. 

She wants us to go get counseling which I’m completely fine with. I thought it might be helpful as well to post this and get some feedback from others. Is there room for friendships of the opposite sex in marriages? And in my case, what should I do?


----------



## The Middleman

1. I’m a guy.
2. I’m really into politics as well.
3. I side with your wife.

If you love your wife and you are committed to your marriage, I feel that you should respect her wishes and end this friendship with this woman. The fact that she said she is uncomfortable with it is reason enough for you to end it, as a committed husband.

Let me ask you this: If your wife said to you that she will leave you if you don’t end this friendship with this woman, would you end the friendship? Who’s more important to you?


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Yes there is room for opposite sex friends in a relationship. However, there isn't room for opposite sex friends in every relationship. As you will see by the responses to come. It is really dependant on the people within the relationship, and yes past experiences shape these views 100%. So her past is linked to the issue and always will be. 

To some people here, it will be seen as you are on a slippery slope. To some, you aren't doing anything wrong. While some will say this is already an EA. To others, even having a person of the opposite sex saved in your contacts on your phone that isn't a family member clearly means you have already been banging for years and you've probably cheated with at least 30 other women on top of it all and have illegitimate kids running around all over the place. 

I don't think you are doing anything wrong, but I dont think your wife is ever going to change her mind on this issue either way. So your options are find a relationship with someone else who allows for opposite sex friends, or resign yourself to the fact that you are in a relationship that doesn't allow for them and respect your wife's wishes to not have them. No matter how unattractive the OS friend is and how silly it seems to you, its going to be a serious issue for her and you can't change that. 

Also, be prepared for the idea that she is the one cheating so she is projecting. 
I don't believe that, just warning you that some people's minds will automatically go there.


----------



## BluesPower

When you are in a relationship and your SO has an issue with an opposite sex friend, you end the relationship with the friend. 

What is more important your wife and marriage, or your need to discuss things with your friend. 

And, yeah I know I am wrong, you wife is not stupid, she senses that this "Friend" is into you.

You are being immature and selfish. Here is another thing, if you discount what your wife says, you won't be married very long. 

If you are going to be married, then be married.


----------



## TheBohannons

Jdwino92 said:


> My wife has voiced that she isn’t comfortable with my friendship with this woman. I have asked her to explain and she says it’s intuition, and that she does trust me not to do anything but that something just makes her feel icky.
> 
> I want to respect and listen to my wife


End of discussion. There are no buts after respect. Any thing else you write is just noise.

Question. In time, you may be in the reverse position. Do you want your wife to argue semantics or respect your "gut feeling" about the other guy?

It really looks like you are justifying continued contact that makes your wife uncomfortable. You are making decisions that will impact your marriage for a long time. If you teach your wife you can overrule her "feelings", then don't be surprised when she does the same to you. After all, that's what you taught her. 

Better know what you are doing. This isnt even close to a question.


----------



## Jdwino92

So here’s some questions for all of you 

I am not trying to discount my wife or overrule her. I feel like that’s what she’s trying to do to me. I don’t think it’s healthy if either of us has the power to tell the other what to do without discourse. I think the issue runs far deeper than she’s uncomfortable with this woman, I think she doesn’t trust me or has other issues that may or may not be related to me. I could be doing something wrong somewhere else in our relationship for example. I don’t think though that it’s as simple as “anytime your partner doesn’t like something , give them what they want


----------



## Ynot

I think your dilemma highlights the sort of compromises we become faced with whenever we enter a relationship. I disagree with those who imagine that "two become one" and you should live your life for your partner. You remain your own person regardless of whatever relationship you may find your self in. To deny yourself is to invite regret and resentment into your life. Your wife is expressing a level of jealousy, which she either deals with or kills the relationship she has with you. I understand your concerns, but reality is reality. And you are facing a reality. Recognizing reality is a good thing. It appears you realize that.


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband

Your wife is dealing with some of the issues discussed here - https://forgivenwife.com/unbearable-lessons/
Her past experiences are affecting your present.

My wife in the past expressed discomfort with me being around certain women, and I distanced myself from them.

Flip side, there was a single guy at church she worked on a project with, started spending time with, and my radar went off. I simple said, "I cutoff the contact when you felt uncomfortable, now it's your turn". End of discussion.


----------



## BluesPower

Jdwino92 said:


> So here’s some questions for all of you
> 
> I am not trying to discount my wife or overrule her. I feel like that’s what she’s trying to do to me. I don’t think it’s healthy if either of us has the power to tell the other what to do without discourse. I think the issue runs far deeper than she’s uncomfortable with this woman, I think she doesn’t trust me or has other issues that may or may not be related to me. I could be doing something wrong somewhere else in our relationship for example. I don’t think though that it’s as simple as “anytime your partner doesn’t like something , give them what they want


You see, this is your issue right here. You explain your issue, you are a young married person, and young in general. 

People who have been through the mill, tell you that you are out of line, and this is why. But you are so smart and you got this, right. 

Then why post in the first place. People, esp women have intuition, your wife is saying to end this friendship, but you can't accept that because you just need to understand. 

You know what, what you need to understand is that you do not need to understand every damn thing in the world. As you get older you will understand how much you don't understand, and then you will finally understand that you cannot understand everything.

Buy that will not happen before you end up with a wife that loses all respect for you, and either cheats and leaves you or if you are lucky, just leaves you. 

Or if you were really smart, you would understand that people wiser than you are telling you when your wife has a problem with something, you listen and honor her wishes...

Your choice...


----------



## Buddy400

Jdwino92 said:


> So here’s some questions for all of you
> 
> I am not trying to discount my wife or overrule her. I feel like that’s what she’s trying to do to me. I don’t think it’s healthy if either of us has the power to tell the other what to do without discourse. I think the issue runs far deeper than she’s uncomfortable with this woman, I think she doesn’t trust me or has other issues that may or may not be related to me. I could be doing something wrong somewhere else in our relationship for example. I don’t think though that it’s as simple as “anytime your partner doesn’t like something , give them what they want


Your wife shouldn't have the power to tell you what to do.

She does have the right to tell you when she isn't happy about something you do.

It's your choice to ignore her and do what you please or to respect her concerns.


----------



## Prodigal

I'll assume there are other people in your group with whom you can discuss politics and current events. This woman can't be the ONLY one who piques your interest and shares your point of view.

In other words, find someone else with whom you can connect on an intellectual level. Your wife is uncomfortable with this woman, regardless of your justifications/arguments to the contrary.

SERIOUSLY.


----------



## Jdwino92

Prodigal said:


> I'll assume there are other people in your group with whom you can discuss politics and current events. This woman can't be the ONLY one who piques your interest and shares your point of view.
> 
> In other words, find someone else with whom you can connect on an intellectual level. Your wife is uncomfortable with this woman, regardless of your justifications/arguments to the contrary.
> 
> SERIOUSLY.


If you read my post, I said I do have a group of people who are in the local area who I talk to on a fairy regular basis, everyday or most days. She is part of this group, we have monthly meet ups and a group chat.


----------



## Andy1001

Jdwino92 said:


> If you read my post, I said I do have a group of people who are in the local area who I talk to on a fairy regular basis, everyday or most days. She is part of this group, we have monthly meet ups and a group chat.


Is this the only woman you’re wife has a problem with.If so then I think you are being very dismissive of her feelings and she rightly feels that you are willing to put this woman ahead of your marriage.Everything doesn’t have to be discussed to a sub-atomic level,sometimes in life we just do something to keep our partners happy.And if as you say you work long hours with overtime,wouldn’t your time off be better spent with your family than talking to strangers online.Maybe add up the hours your hobby takes up and compare it to the time you spend one on one with your wife.
However if your wife has a problem with any woman you talk to then that is a different matter and needs to be discussed either together or with counseling.
Can I also say that reading your posts you seem to have a slight superiority complex over your wife.


----------



## Robbie1234

As @Andy1001 said why don't you add up the time you talk to this woman and compare it to the time you talk to your other friends or your wife. 
If your wife got over friendly with some other man would you be so calm about it. I don't think so.


----------



## FalCod

This is a tough one. On one hand, I'm don't think there is anything wrong with having platonic friendships with opposite sex friends. I would be very unhappy if my were the jealous type and she would feel the same if I was that way towards her. On the other hand, if my wife was creeped out by my friendship with someone, I'd almost certainly end that friendship or at the very least minimize it. But I feel that way because she's always been very accepting of my strange menagerie of friends so if she singled one out, I would assume that she sees something there that I don't.

So on one hand, you are risking your relationship with your wife by ignoring her concerns. That's very serious. It's disrespecting the judgment and concern of the person in the world most important to you. On the other hand, you are indulging your wife's jealousy and fear and constraining yourself to live your life in a box she's creating for you. You need to assess this carefully.

Personally, with just the information you've provided, I'd break off the friendship. I'd explain why to the friend. I'd let your wife know that you are doing this out of trust and respect for her. I'd also let her know that you expect to be able to have female friends just like you have no problems with her having male friends. If there are occasional cases where either partner's radar picks up some problems, that's one thing. Getting paranoid about every opposite sex contact is quite another. It's a balancing act.

I also think the advice you get on a site like this is going to be heavily biased by the fact that so many people here have experienced infidelity and are going to naturally have stricter boundaries than most. Of course, you need to consider your life experiences and your wife's as well. If either of you has been unfaithful or been the victim of infidelity, I think you'll be more comfortable with stricter boundaries.

My wife and I both have more opposite friends that we see regularly than same sex friends. That's just a coincidence based on the work that we do and who that puts us in contact with. Some things that help make it a non-issue for us include:

* We have a very healthy physical relationship with each other. Neither is left unsatisfied and tempted to stray to meet those needs.

* We both adore each other and talk frequently and positively about each other to our friends. 

* We're totally open. She can see my e-mail, unlock my phone, track my location, see all my passwords, etc and vice versa. We share a password safe that has all of our passwords. We don't go snooping on each other, but there are often times when we have to look at the other's e-mail to find something, or respond to an incoming text for the other while they are driving, or stuff like that.

* We both actively involve each other in activities with our friends.


----------



## arbitrator

*In a nutshell, "boundaries" within the confines of a trusting marriage or a relationship is purely a matter of common sense. 

If ignored, it's nothing more than a prelude to infidelity!*


----------



## Rowan

OP, routinely spend 15 hours per week, minimum, doing fun, date-like, things alone together with just your wife. That will give you both time to meet one another's most important emotional needs and should help considerably in the effort to sustain an in-love feeling within your marriage. Outside of that 15 hours, work, sleep, and necessary chores/tasks, you should still have a bit of free time. You're welcome to spend that remaining free time chatting with your group. And, if it fits within the boundaries established for your marriage, to chat sometimes with your female friend. That friendship would then only be a problem if it crossed lines into intimate conversation, anything of a sexual nature, encroached on the time you should be spending with your wife (the 15 hours), or if your wife was being hurt by it. 

So, are you spending 15+ hours per week dating your wife? Is your time chatting with your friend encroaching on time that should be spent with your wife? Is any of that conversation of a personal nature - complaining about your wife, discussing relationship issues, sharing hopes and dreams for the future, flirting, double entendre, pics or anything of that sort? And is this relationship hurting your wife? Is your friendship and the freedom to have it more valuable to you than your wife's feelings and her love and respect for you? 

Figure out where you are in this scenario, whether your marital relationship is as strong as it could be, whether you're devoting more time to your friend than your marriage, whether your conversation with her is truly appropriate, and whether your actions/behaviors are hurtful to your wife. Once you know that, you can decide whether or not this friendship is worth what you might lose to maintain it. And you can decide whether or not your marriage is worth devoting the necessary time, attention and care it will take to maintain it over the long haul. 

Fall in Love, Stay in Love by W. Harley, along with Lovebusters by the same author, might give you some food for thought. Also, you might wish to check out Not Just Friends by S. Glass.


----------



## hinterdir

You're WRONG

MARRIAGE trumps all of your new hobby friends. It is selfish of you to think "it's ok we are just friends, you should be fine with this" That's basically just selfishness in that you want to keep your new pals and don't want to sacrifice or compromise.

If your wife is not ok with it than you are now entering realms of hurting your marriage for this hobby. Cut back on talking with this woman or cut her out all together. 

You two should make decisions that are good and healthy for the marriage not ones that hurt it. This is only good for you but it is hurting your wife and your marriage. If it bothers her you should stop interacting so much with this woman. You cares if you are on the up and up and if you have no plans to cheat. She can still dislike you having such close and frequent talks with other women. It doesn't even have to be an affair type situation. Just the time together and the constant talking sharing with another woman can be enough to make a spouse not like it. 

If you get stubborn declare your "RIGHTS" to talk to all the women you want, you know she doesn't own you, than do so at your own peril. She's told you it bothers her and if you refuse to give this woman up, you are just proving your own needs and desires trump you wife's and this is more important to you than a happen marriage. You deserve whatever misery is coming your way.


----------



## personofinterest

I get that your a politician, and this is how you operate. But you are not going to get any healthy married person to tell you you are right. You are basically an affair waiting to happen if you don't change your tune. I would tell your wife-to-be very cautious and alert.


----------



## NextTimeAround

> I also think the advice you get on a site like this is going to be heavily biased by the fact that so many people here have experienced infidelity and are going to naturally have stricter boundaries than most. Of course, you need to consider your life experiences and your wife's as well. If either of you has been unfaithful or been the victim of infidelity, I think you'll be more comfortable with stricter boundaries.


It would be interesting if you tried some advice columns or message boards that are made up of mostly single people. I noticed a Q&A column recently in which a woman expressed concern that her husband was doing a lot handy man work for free for one of her female friends. Some the respondents said that this was a matter for the husband decide whether he is being taken advantage of not the wife. Oh dear.......

OP, you want your wife not only to not find work outside the home but also to stay home all day and home school. I am on your wife's side on this matter. I can see a great potential for resentment. Not only do you have a ready made excuse to leave the house everyday, to see new and different people and places everyday, your wife will be stuck at home. And then you come home and get on the phone / messenger / whatever to speak to people outside of the house. Put yourself in your wife's shoes for a moment.

The problem with your situation is that sometimes people can become very aggressive with OSFs. Yesterday's acquaintances becomes today's friends; becomes tomorrow's lovers. How often do we hear "You led me on....." And once you start venting about your wife's resentment for being tied to the house all day everyday, imagine what advice this woman might give to you.

It's easy to say
1. she's married
2. she's a lesbian
3. she's not sexually attractive .... well not to me anyway 
4. and so on.....

What we do know is that she is human and can be susceptible to
1. neediness for attention and maybe other stuff
2. likes the fact that she can divert the attention of a married man (with kids no less) to her
3. likes the fact that someone is consulting her for her advice / opinion, 100 extra points if he actually follows it
4. likes the fact that she get all this attention and possibly more without having to put out.......
5. likes the fact that she can be dismissive of the wife and still doesn't change the intensity of her relationship wit the husband and so on.....

Sadly, that second group is not transmitted by any neon signs like the first group. It's better off to have strong boundaries with people outside your marriage so that you are less likely to be confronted with any showdowns in which might have to choose one party over the other.


----------



## Married but Happy

I've always had opposite sex platonic friendships, and always will. I can maintain boundaries even if I'm attracted to someone - it's not uncommon to be attracted, but you do need to avoid situations where that can get out of hand.

Anyway, only you really know if there could be a potential problem with this woman, or other women, eventually. Your first loyalty is to your wife, even if she's unreasonable and irrational. However, I wouldn't meekly accept her demand to end or greatly diminish a legitimate friendship. I would negotiate a compromise you can both accept. I would also feel that if I have to give up something that I truly enjoy for no good reason, then I would find something that is comparable for her and ask that she give that up so you are both sacrificing for the sake of the marriage.

In your situation, I would fight for my rights, but then my relationship began with us both having close opposite sex friends - it was understood that this would continue. If that became a problem later without _very_ good reasons, then I might question if the relationship is still right for me.


----------



## Jdwino92

Andy1001 said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you read my post, I said I do have a group of people who are in the local area who I talk to on a fairy regular basis, everyday or most days. She is part of this group, we have monthly meet ups and a group chat.
> 
> 
> 
> Is this the only woman you’re wife has a problem with.If so then I think you are being very dismissive of her feelings and she rightly feels that you are willing to put this woman ahead of your marriage.Everything doesn’t have to be discussed to a sub-atomic level,sometimes in life we just do something to keep our partners happy.And if as you say you work long hours with overtime,wouldn’t your time off be better spent with your family than talking to strangers online.Maybe add up the hours your hobby takes up and compare it to the time you spend one on one with your wife.
> However if your wife has a problem with any woman you talk to then that is a different matter and needs to be discussed either together or with counseling.
> Can I also say that reading your posts you seem to have a slight superiority complex over your wife.
Click to expand...

She’s had issues with other women before, and I’ve previously backed off with those other women. But at the same time she’s also very trusting, she has let me even hang around exes from my past. So I do want to give her credit where it’s due, she’s not just some overly jealous person who irrationally lashes out at every woman I come into contact with. But she has a pattern of responding badly to specific ones, I’m not sure what the connecting pattern is, if it’s something I’m doing or perhaps certain subconscious triggers in certain women for her. 

It varies. Some days I’ll spend maybe an hour or two at the most between talking to her and the group chat, and the one monthly meet up. But it isn’t everyday and some days in the group chat or just between her and I (the friend) there might be a couple exchanges and that’s it. Like the sharing of a news article and a few comments.


----------



## Jdwino92

FalCod said:


> This is a tough one. On one hand, I'm don't think there is anything wrong with having platonic friendships with opposite sex friends. I would be very unhappy if my were the jealous type and she would feel the same if I was that way towards her. On the other hand, if my wife was creeped out by my friendship with someone, I'd almost certainly end that friendship or at the very least minimize it. But I feel that way because she's always been very accepting of my strange menagerie of friends so if she singled one out, I would assume that she sees something there that I don't.
> 
> So on one hand, you are risking your relationship with your wife by ignoring her concerns. That's very serious. It's disrespecting the judgment and concern of the person in the world most important to you. On the other hand, you are indulging your wife's jealousy and fear and constraining yourself to live your life in a box she's creating for you. You need to assess this carefully.
> 
> Personally, with just the information you've provided, I'd break off the friendship. I'd explain why to the friend. I'd let your wife know that you are doing this out of trust and respect for her. I'd also let her know that you expect to be able to have female friends just like you have no problems with her having male friends. If there are occasional cases where either partner's radar picks up some problems, that's one thing. Getting paranoid about every opposite sex contact is quite another. It's a balancing act.
> 
> I also think the advice you get on a site like this is going to be heavily biased by the fact that so many people here have experienced infidelity and are going to naturally have stricter boundaries than most. Of course, you need to consider your life experiences and your wife's as well. If either of you has been unfaithful or been the victim of infidelity, I think you'll be more comfortable with stricter boundaries.
> 
> My wife and I both have more opposite friends that we see regularly than same sex friends. That's just a coincidence based on the work that we do and who that puts us in contact with. Some things that help make it a non-issue for us include:
> 
> * We have a very healthy physical relationship with each other. Neither is left unsatisfied and tempted to stray to meet those needs.
> 
> * We both adore each other and talk frequently and positively about each other to our friends.
> 
> * We're totally open. She can see my e-mail, unlock my phone, track my location, see all my passwords, etc and vice versa. We share a password safe that has all of our passwords. We don't go snooping on each other, but there are often times when we have to look at the other's e-mail to find something, or respond to an incoming text for the other while they are driving, or stuff like that.
> 
> * We both actively involve each other in activities with our friends.


I agree with your assessment. I’ve been telling her I think the problem is we have less time together and less intimate time. 

She insists of having the children sleep in our room and our beds, at least for the foreseeable future and it’s been that way for years. They are young, 1 and 3

She puts our children first and doesn’t trust people watch our children outside of her mom, occasionally my mom. We have a weekly date night but I have been telling my wife that intimacy and closeness isn’t something that can be fabricated by a once a week date night, everyday we need to be fighting for time with each other. And I feel like I am fighting for more time with her. I don’t message this woman or this group when I have a chance to be with my
Family. I mainly message people over my breaks or downtime at work, but I also call and text my wife. I will usually call her first to try and talk to her. I love her and I love how much she loves our children but I think we are imbalanced.


----------



## Jdwino92

personofinterest said:


> I get that your a politician, and this is how you operate. But you are not going to get any healthy married person to tell you you are right. You are basically an affair waiting to happen if you don't change your tune. I would tell your wife-to-be very cautious and alert.


I never framed this as wanting to be told I’m right or wrong. I don’t understand the situation or accept it in the way some people are framing it. My gut feeling is this is not a reaction at the friendship with this woman but about something deeper, probably a combination of herself and our relationship and probably other things. 

Talking about tax codes and the philosophy of postmodernism and enlightenment values is not what I would figure my wife to get jealous to this degree over. My worry and concern is twofold. 

One, it’d be hard to completely remove this friend as we are in the same group, so I’d almost have to leave the group entirely. My wife says she doesn’t want that, just to decrease my contact. But my wife gets upset even if I only send like two messages to her. She has complete access to my accounts , all my passwords and everything. I’m an open book to my wife. My analysis is that if I just do as she wants, I’m going to be left a little frustrated obviously but also this could establish a pattern or precedent for the rest of our marriage.


----------



## NextTimeAround

It would be interesting to hear directly from your wife what she has observed.

It might be that she notices that calls from this woman changes your moods. That means a lot. You may not have recognised when you have renigged on your responsibilities whether implicit or explicit. Or may have expressed that you have certain obligations to this woman that don't make sense to your wife. Do you spend money when you're around this woman?

Also I don't like that you refer to this female being as a "girl." How old is she?


----------



## Thor

BluesPower said:


> When you are in a relationship and your SO has an issue with an opposite sex friend, you end the relationship with the friend.
> 
> What is more important your wife and marriage, or your need to discuss things with your friend.


^^^^ This.

If the situation were reversed, you'd want her to respect you and the marriage more than some other man.

Keep in mind that men are blind to women's true nature, and women are blind to men's true nature. Have you ever seen a female acquaintance dating some guy that you just know instinctively is a jerk, but she somehow sees him as Prince Charming? You try to tell her he is bad news, but she just can't see it. Men can read men better than women, and the same with women reading women. Your W may see something real in this other woman that you are blind to.

Regardless, you have a choice here. Your wife or this other woman. There is no 3rd choice of having both. That's the way marriage works.


----------



## personofinterest

Jdwino92 said:


> She’s had issues with other women before, and I’ve previously backed off with those other women. But at the same time she’s also very trusting, she has let me even hang around exes from my past. So I do want to give her credit where it’s due, she’s not just some overly jealous person who irrationally lashes out at every woman I come into contact with. But she has a pattern of responding badly to specific ones, I’m not sure what the connecting pattern is, if it’s something I’m doing or perhaps certain subconscious triggers in certain women for her.
> 
> It varies. Some days I’ll spend maybe an hour or two at the most between talking to her and the group chat, and the one monthly meet up. But it isn’t everyday and some days in the group chat or just between her and I (the friend) there might be a couple exchanges and that’s it. Like the sharing of a news article and a few comments.


I know what the pattern is. Those are the ones she knows are a danger. SHE knows even if you don't.

You get to choose - your marriage or your female buddy. However, I see a pattern of control in you that leads me to believe you will not think that way. After all, you are also dictating what your wife does in the rest of her life too, right? No work, no public school for the kids (that's her job), etc.


----------



## NextTimeAround

> Regardless, you have a choice here. Your wife or this other woman. There is no 3rd choice of having both. That's the way marriage works.


Especially if you expect your wife not to work and to home school. The "girl" who has adult conversations "about tax codes and post modernism" with you is always going to be the more attractive choice.


----------



## Jdwino92

NextTimeAround said:


> It would be interesting to hear directly from your wife what she has observed.
> 
> It might be that she notices that calls from this woman changes your moods. That means a lot. You may not have recognised when you have renigged on your responsibilities whether implicit or explicit. Or may have expressed that you have certain obligations to this woman that don't make sense to your wife. Do you spend money when you're around this woman?
> 
> Also I don't like that you refer to this female being as a "girl." How old is she?


She’s almost or is 30, I’m not exactly sure. My wife and I are both 26

I don’t hang around with this woman period except at the group meet ups. I don’t spend money on her period. I don’t talk on the phone with her. Just Facebook messenger, we talk on a group chat and sometimes just to each other. 

I get really passionate and excited about these subjects, politics, philosophy, religion. Perhaps too much excitement over them, if I’m being honest. Although I think it’s a good and a bad thing.


----------



## personofinterest

Jdwino92 said:


> She’s almost or is 30, I’m not exactly sure. My wife and I are both 26
> 
> I don’t hang around with this woman period except at the group meet ups. I don’t spend money on her period. I don’t talk on the phone with her. Just Facebook messenger, we talk on a group chat and sometimes just to each other.
> 
> I get really passionate and excited about these subjects, politics, philosophy, religion. Perhaps too much excitement over them, if I’m being honest. Although I think it’s a good and a bad thing.


I would say the same beliefs that probably motivate you to keep your wife home and cause you to want to home school also tell you to guard your heart, avoid all appearance of evil, and love your wife as Christ loved the church. Maybe you should focus on that.


----------



## Jdwino92

personofinterest said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> She’s had issues with other women before, and I’ve previously backed off with those other women. But at the same time she’s also very trusting, she has let me even hang around exes from my past. So I do want to give her credit where it’s due, she’s not just some overly jealous person who irrationally lashes out at every woman I come into contact with. But she has a pattern of responding badly to specific ones, I’m not sure what the connecting pattern is, if it’s something I’m doing or perhaps certain subconscious triggers in certain women for her.
> 
> It varies. Some days I’ll spend maybe an hour or two at the most between talking to her and the group chat, and the one monthly meet up. But it isn’t everyday and some days in the group chat or just between her and I (the friend) there might be a couple exchanges and that’s it. Like the sharing of a news article and a few comments.
> 
> 
> 
> I know what the pattern is. Those are the ones she knows are a danger. SHE knows even if you don't.
> 
> You get to choose - your marriage or your female buddy. However, I see a pattern of control in you that leads me to believe you will not think that way. After all, you are also dictating what your wife does in the rest of her life too, right? No work, no public school for the kids (that's her job), etc.
Click to expand...


What the actual ****. Lol. 

She chose to be a stay at home mom. Everytkme she considers getting a job I support her in pursuing it. 

SHE wants to homeschool. I’m fine with either, although I agree with her concerns about public education. 

I don’t dictate anything my wife does. Not a thing. In fact I give in to her all the time. And she has changed my mind about countless things, about diet, circumcision of our son, relationships with various family members, decisions in the household about where to spend our money, where to live, etc. 

You don’t know me dude. Or my wife or our marriage. Check yourself.


----------



## Jdwino92

Let’s get something straight here. It’s ridiculous it needs spelled out. 

Women can CHOOSE TO STAY HOME WITH THEIR KIDS

Ridiculous that you all think I’m forcing her too. I’d rather she got a job and we had more money. She doesn’t want to put the kids in day care. She wants more hands on time raising our kids and spending time with them. And honestly that’s a harder job that just about anything in the world for so many reasons, both logistically and psychologically. 

She is the one who first felt strongly about home schooling our children. She eventually brought me around into her way of thinking although I’m still open to putting them in public schools later. 

I don’t control my wife. I want, she’s too strong willed for me to even try. If anything I give in so much and that’s why I’m getting agitated over this situation, because I think our marriage is tilted too much towards just doing what my wife wants us to do. She’s the type of person who only needs/wants her spouse and children to be happy. And that’s great , but there’s nothing wrong with me wanting to have friends outside of our home, we are different and I need more social interaction. It doesn’t have to be with this woman, but I really like this group I’m a part of and she’s part of it. I’ve tried inviting my wife to these meet ups but she doesn’t want to come. My friend even wants my wife to come because right now this woman is the only female in the group and she wants some more female friends. 

I love my wife but I feel and think that she is irrationally demonizing this woman and asking me just to follow suit. She says I can be part of this group but wants me to not talk to her much or at all. I’ve decided to respect that request but my wife still is upset with me, and is upset that I at all would want to be friends with this woman if the context I’ve laid out which I think is completely reasonable. All I do is message her, both privately and in group chats. My wife has complete access to my accounts. IN fact my wife has logged into my accounts and deleted
Messages from her before lol. I’m not hiding anything or doing anything shady. I’m not hanging out with her in person one on one. We talk about intellectual subjects and that’s it. And I
Might seem like a jerk for saying this, but I think this woman is rather unattractive. 

None of what I’m doing would be construed as unreasonable if this person had a penis. I think that’s what makes it all ridiculous to me.


----------



## personofinterest

Jdwino92 said:


> What the actual ****. Lol.
> 
> She chose to be a stay at home mom. Everytkme she considers getting a job I support her in pursuing it.
> 
> SHE wants to homeschool. I’m fine with either, although I agree with her concerns about public education.
> 
> I don’t dictate anything my wife does. Not a thing. In fact I give in to her all the time. And she has changed my mind about countless things, about diet, circumcision of our son, relationships with various family members, decisions in the household about where to spend our money, where to live, etc.
> 
> You don’t know me dude. Or my wife or our marriage. Check yourself.


I apologize. I read too quickly and must have taken some of the other respondents' posts out of context. I am sorry about that.

Disregard my remarks about your choosing for her to stay home.

However, being conscious of guarding yourself and the priority SHE should take in your decisions definitely stands.


----------



## NextTimeAround

> None of what I’m doing would be construed as unreasonable if this person had a penis. I think that’s what makes it all ridiculous to me.


that's not true. A lot of people around here recognise that same sex friends can also be toxic to one's marriage..... and not just because someone is bi-curious.


----------



## OnTheFly

Jake, send your wife a link to TAM (but not this thread), she'll need it in a few years (probably the CWI section).

Your OP was mostly rationalization to continue getting the buzz of chatting this side chick up. Or maybe you're just terribly naive. Either way, somehow your wife has picked up a bad vibe, from you or side chick, and her ''gut'' is telling her something is sideways. If your wife had given a bunch of flakey reasons, that's one thing, but I put incredible stock into my gut intuitions. Look around these boards and see how many times the gut was right while the brain was in la-la-land.


----------



## Jdwino92

Also, people here need to learn to read. I don’t come home from work and get on my phone. I only message people when I’m on break at work and I always try to call and talk to my wife first


----------



## Jdwino92

OnTheFly said:


> Jake, send your wife a link to TAM (but not this thread), she'll need it in a few years (probably the CWI section).
> 
> Your OP was mostly rationalization to continue getting the buzz of chatting this side chick up. Or maybe you're just terribly naive. Either way, somehow your wife has picked up a bad vibe, from you or side chick, and her ''gut'' is telling her something is sideways. If your wife had given a bunch of flakey reasons, that's one thing, but I put incredible stock into my gut intuitions. Look around these boards and see how many times the gut was right while the brain was in la-la-land.


I don’t think intuition or gut feelings are infallible, they are less reliable when they don’t contrary with any facts. My wife hasn’t brought any instances of me or this friend doing or saying anything inappropriate, I’m not hiding anything. There’s no smoking gun.


----------



## Jdwino92

NextTimeAround said:


> None of what I’m doing would be construed as unreasonable if this person had a penis. I think that’s what makes it all ridiculous to me.
> 
> 
> 
> that's not true. A lot of people around here recognise that same sex friends can also be toxic to one's marriage..... and not just because someone is bi-curious.
Click to expand...

Ok but she’s jealous for more than just my time. And in one week if I message this woman like three or four times that’s a big deal. Sometimes A good day for my wife and I is ruined if she’s opens my phone and sees I sent even one message to this friend. I have other friends who I talk to a lot and see in person and hang out with.


----------



## FrenchFry

.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Respect your wife's feelings on this. PERIOD.


----------



## Married but Happy

Many people here have been burned or are innately very conservative. A small number are just aggressively nasty in their comments. That's fine, but if you don't share those views, then you have to decide what advice works for your situation, and what doesn't. 

I'll repeat what I said earlier: Negotiate for what you want. And find out what will work for your wife to ease her concerns. You have a bad habit of giving in to her on everything, though, so I wonder if this is the line in the sand you want to draw. It does need drawing at some point, IMO. Perhaps this is the issue for which you'll do so.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Jdwino92 said:


> Ok but she’s jealous for more than just my time. And in one week if I message this woman like three or four times that’s a big deal. Sometimes A good day for my wife and I is ruined if she’s opens my phone and sees I sent even one message to this friend. I have other friends who I talk to a lot and see in person and hang out with.


You are placing your relationship with this woman higher priority than that with your wife. This is wrong, no matter what kind of spin you try to put on it. So stop interacting with her, this is blatant disrespect to the woman you are supposed to put above all other people in your life.


----------



## Andy1001

Jdwino92 said:


> NextTimeAround said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None of what I’m doing would be construed as unreasonable if this person had a penis. I think that’s what makes it all ridiculous to me.
> 
> 
> 
> that's not true. A lot of people around here recognise that same sex friends can also be toxic to one's marriage..... and not just because someone is bi-curious.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok but she’s jealous for more than just my time. And in one week if I message this woman like three or four times that’s a big deal. Sometimes A good day for my wife and I is ruined if she’s opens my phone and sees I sent even one message to this friend. I have other friends who I talk to a lot and see in person and hang out with.
Click to expand...

Buddy here’s my final thoughts on this matter. 
You may have a great knowledge of politics and philosophy but you know nothing about how to treat your life partner and how to alleviate her concerns. 
And you know even less about being a husband. 
And while I’m at it ask yourself why are you defending this other woman so much if she is just a casual acquaintance. 
Good luck,you are going to need it. Especially if your wife has been talking to a lawyer or her friends.


----------



## OnTheFly

Jdwino92 said:


> I don’t think intuition or gut feelings are infallible, they are less reliable when they don’t contrary with any facts. My wife hasn’t brought any instances of me or this friend doing or saying anything inappropriate, I’m not hiding anything. There’s no smoking gun.


You've come to the wrong place if you want validation for your actions. 

I'd suggest you find a forum where other ''extroverts'' have a ''need/desire'' to chat up anyone they want for ''intellectual'' reasons. Might have more luck there.


----------



## Edmund

Jdwino92 said:


> She wants us to go get counseling which I’m completely fine with. I thought it might be helpful as well to post this and get some feedback from others. Is there room for friendships of the opposite sex in marriages? And in my case, what should I do?


Trust your wife's instinct on this. She detects something in you that you are not even noticing about yourself. Fade away this friendship.
Believe me, there are plenty of other people to argue about politics and religion with, if that is what you enjoy doing.


----------



## personofinterest

Edmund said:


> Trust your wife's instinct on this. She detects something in you that you are not even noticing about yourself. Fade away this friendship.
> Believe me, there are plenty of other people to argue about politics and religion with, if that is what you enjoy doing.


I wanted to point out that this instinct may have nothing to do with YOU. You may not even have being attracted to this woman on your radar. But this WOMAN might have designs on you.

Now, you may be asking, "As long as I don't do anything and I am not receptive, what's the problem?"

Well, let's say there's a guy in the neighborhood your wife enjoys talking gardening with (for example). She isn't attracted to him, but you can tell a mile away he has a thing for her. I'm sure you'd be totally fine with them messaging and spending time together and getting close, right? I doubt it. And if you were, you'd be foolish.


----------



## Thor

Jdwino92 said:


> Ok but she’s jealous for more than just my time. And in one week if I message this woman like three or four times that’s a big deal. Sometimes A good day for my wife and I is ruined if she’s opens my phone and sees I sent even one message to this friend. I have other friends who I talk to a lot and see in person and hang out with.


So you have a choice: Your wife or this other woman.

Is your wife's distress logical? Reasonable? Based in reality? *It doesn't matter*. Your wife is upset by this relationship you have with another woman and you cannot argue her out of it. So, you can either choose to end the conversation with this other woman or you can choose to devalue your wife (which will almost certainly result in an eventual divorce).


----------



## Chaparral

Three boos for you both:

LOVE BUSTERS

HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS

NOT

NOT JUST FRIENDS

For you MARRIED MAN SEX LIVE PRIMER

If your wife is uncomfortable with your friendship with another woman, are closed. Your #1 job is to protect and provide for your wife. Not doing so will deplete your love bank and that will eventually be fatal.

KIDS SHOULD NOT BE SLEEPING IN. YOUR BEDROOM PERIOD. This is also fatal to a marriage.


----------



## Married but Happy

Thor said:


> Is your wife's distress logical? Reasonable? Based in reality? *It doesn't matter*.


Of course it matters. Irrationality, superstition, ignorance, bias, etc., should ALL be pushed back. It's HOW you do so that matters, and that can lead to good - or bad - results, depending.

It would be no different than him "feeling" that she suddenly smells bad (even if she doesn't), and refuses to get close to her or have sex. It's not real, rational, or acceptable, but by the logic many are using, she should just accept that this makes him uncomfortable, and keep her distance (plus shower 3x a day). That would be incredibly stupid to do without working on a solution. I'm pushing back with this post against traditional relationship ignorance and bias. I know I will change few - or no - minds, but think it needs to be said anyway.


----------



## Cletus

Married but Happy said:


> Of course it matters. Irrationality, superstition, ignorance, bias, etc., should ALL be pushed back. It's HOW you do so that matters, and that can lead to good - or bad - results, depending.


Absolutely. My experiences are colored by having been raised by a schizophrenic, but were I to get an irrational - i.e., not based on actual fact - mandate from my wife, I would feel under no immediate compulsion to follow that order simply because she made it. 

Spouses don't get their way simply because they are the most important person in your life.


----------



## personofinterest

Married but Happy said:


> Of course it matters. Irrationality, superstition, ignorance, bias, etc., should ALL be pushed back. It's HOW you do so that matters, and that can lead to good - or bad - results, depending.
> 
> It would be no different than him "feeling" that she suddenly smells bad (even if she doesn't), and refuses to get close to her or have sex. It's not real, rational, or acceptable, but by the logic many are using, she should just accept that this makes him uncomfortable, and keep her distance (plus shower 3x a day). That would be incredibly stupid to do without working on a solution. I'm pushing back with this post against traditional relationship ignorance and bias. I know I will change few - or no - minds, but think it needs to be said anyway.


So, OP, following this advice, I'd suggest the following:

Tell your wife she is not the boss of you
Tell her she is irrational and paranoid
Talk to this woman as much as you want
Declare victory

Come back in 6 months and tell us how that is going.


----------



## TRy

Married but Happy said:


> Of course it matters. Irrationality, superstition, ignorance, bias, etc., should ALL be pushed back. It's HOW you do so that matters, and that can lead to good - or bad - results, depending.


Thor is right "it doesn't matter". When you are picking a spouse is when you decide if their "Irrationality, superstition, ignorance, bias" is such that you cannot respect their opinion. Marriage is based on respect. You either do or do not respect them. In this case her gut is telling him something about a specific woman. He needs to respect her gut.

BTW, my father had an affair with a woman that he acknowledges was a total downgrade from my mother. I believe that it was the only affair that he ever had, and he says that he never thought that he was the type of person that would ever cheat. When he first became friends with the other woman (OW), he says that he was not attracted to her so he thought that she was safe. Over time he appreciated the attention that she gave him as she praised his ideas and intelligence. He told me later that the attraction that he had for her was based on her personality and on how she made him feel. He said that it snuck up on him. He told me that when he told my Mom before the affair that he had never cheated and that she should trust him, he really believed that he was telling the truth.


----------



## Married but Happy

personofinterest said:


> So, OP, following this advice, I'd suggest the following:
> 
> Tell your wife she is not the boss of you
> Tell her she is irrational and paranoid
> Talk to this woman as much as you want
> Declare victory
> 
> Come back in 6 months and tell us how that is going.


Thank you for providing an example of ignorance, bias, and manipulation. You are very good at it! <sigh> You "conveniently" overlook that I said that HOW you address the issue greatly affects the outcome. Promulgating bias, misinformation, and using scare tactics is disgusting, IMO.


----------



## NextTimeAround

OP, why don;t you take this issue to Dr. Andrea Bonoir at Washington Post (dot) com and see what she and her readers say. I'm sure there will be a few readers who will sympathise with you against your jealous and insecure wife.


----------



## Jdwino92

Cletus said:


> Married but Happy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it matters. Irrationality, superstition, ignorance, bias, etc., should ALL be pushed back. It's HOW you do so that matters, and that can lead to good - or bad - results, depending.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely. My experiences are colored by having been raised by a schizophrenic, but were I to get an irrational - i.e., not based on actual fact - mandate from my wife, I would feel under no immediate compulsion to follow that order simply because she made it.
> 
> Spouses don't get their way simply because they are the most important person in your life.
Click to expand...

But how? I feel like I either just give her what she wants or if I fight her it’s going to end badly. And as much as I think what she wants from me is wrong, I don’t want to lose her.


----------



## cashcratebob

Andy1001 said:


> Buddy here’s my final thoughts on this matter.
> You may have a great knowledge of politics and philosophy but you know nothing about how to treat your life partner and how to alleviate her concerns.
> And you know even less about being a husband.
> And while I’m at it ask yourself why are you defending this other woman so much if she is just a casual acquaintance.
> Good luck,you are going to need it. Especially if your wife has been talking to a lawyer or her friends.


This right here. Young, thinks he knows it all...got it all figured out. "I'm not attracted to her.." 

OP, what happens when she says she is attracted to you? You do realize that most men instantly regard a woman as more attractive if she says or shows she is attracted to him? Don't know until you are there...don't go there.

Playing with fire here; no woman (other than my mama...maybe...depends on circumstances) is worth causing distress in my marriage. None...and I love talking about religion, politics, whatever. I like deep conversations and I have them with my wife, my pals (males), or with couples with my wife actively engaged in the conversation as well. I certainly don't step away from home to have them, especially if our time together is already taxed.


----------



## Jdwino92

cashcratebob said:


> Andy1001 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Buddy here’s my final thoughts on this matter.
> You may have a great knowledge of politics and philosophy but you know nothing about how to treat your life partner and how to alleviate her concerns.
> And you know even less about being a husband.
> And while I’m at it ask yourself why are you defending this other woman so much if she is just a casual acquaintance.
> Good luck,you are going to need it. Especially if your wife has been talking to a lawyer or her friends.
> 
> 
> 
> This right here. Young, thinks he knows it all...got it all figured out. "I'm not attracted to her.."
> 
> OP, what happens when she says she is attracted to you? You do realize that most men instantly regard a woman as more attractive if she says or shows she is attracted to him? Don't know until you are there...don't go there.
> 
> Playing with fire here; no woman (other than my mama...maybe...depends on circumstances) is worth causing distress in my marriage. None...and I love talking about religion, politics, whatever. I like deep conversations and I have them with my wife, my pals (males), or with couples with my wife actively engaged in the conversation as well. I certainly don't step away from home to have them, especially if our time together is already taxed.
Click to expand...

I don’t step away from the home to talk to this woman at all. I don’t talk to her that much, there are periods of time where we talk everyday and also times when we go days or weeks not talking.


----------



## cashcratebob

Jdwino92 said:


> I don’t step away from the home to talk to this woman at all. I don’t talk to her that much, there are periods of time where we talk everyday and also times when we go days or weeks not talking.


I didn't say this women, I said this group. The group that you go spend time with. Others have pointed out that that whole endeavor in itself is probably exacerbating the situation.


----------



## Married but Happy

Jdwino92 said:


> But how? I feel like I either just give her what she wants or if I fight her it’s going to end badly. And as much as I think what she wants from me is wrong, I don’t want to lose her.


The "how" isn't always clear. Since I don't know either of you or how you interact, I can't advise you. I can point out that always caving to her wishes and never expressing or standing up for your own can make you appear weak, and cost you her respect. If you have a strong opinion on an issue, you should express it calmly and invite constructive discussion. Giving in will build resentment on your part, if it causes you to deny yourself legitimate interests and activities that you truly enjoy. I will also ask why you think you'd lose her over taking a sensible stand on any of the topics you mentioned that you let her have her way on? And why shouldn't she have the same concern about not compromising or agreeing to things you want and need, in that case?

You have given her all the power in this relationship. You may have lost her respect, too - I don't know, but it's a reasonable assumption. IMO, you should reclaim some of the power and respect and use it to reach appropriate compromises. If you always continue to act out of fear, you've already lost - and your self respect will follow. A starting place may be the short book (or pdf download), "No More Mr. Nice Guy." See if you see yourself in the examples, and explore using some of the techniques to regain your self.


----------



## Jdwino92

cashcratebob said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t step away from the home to talk to this woman at all. I don’t talk to her that much, there are periods of time where we talk everyday and also times when we go days or weeks not talking.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't say this women, I said this group. The group that you go spend time with. Others have pointed out that that whole endeavor in itself is probably exacerbating the situation.
Click to expand...

It’s once a month and I don’t go every month. There’s a group chat but I don’t go on it when I’m not at work and I always try and talk to my wife first and as often as I can


----------



## Jdwino92

Married but Happy said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But how? I feel like I either just give her what she wants or if I fight her it’s going to end badly. And as much as I think what she wants from me is wrong, I don’t want to lose her.
> 
> 
> 
> The "how" isn't always clear. Since I don't know either of you or how you interact, I can't advise you. I can point out that always caving to her wishes and never expressing or standing up for your own can make you appear weak, and cost you her respect. If you have a strong opinion on an issue, you should express it calmly and invite constructive discussion. Giving in will build resentment on your part, if it causes you to deny yourself legitimate interests and activities that you truly enjoy. I will also ask why you think you'd lose her over taking a sensible stand on any of the topics you mentioned that you let her have her way on? And why shouldn't she have the same concern about not compromising or agreeing to things you want.
> 
> You have given her all the power in this relationship. You may have lost her respect, too - I don't know, but it's a reasonable assumption. IMO, you should reclaim some of the power and use it to reach appropriate compromises. If you always continue to act out of fear, you've already lost - and your self respect will follow.
Click to expand...

The problem is she makes choices based on intuition mostly and I go based on logic, facts and objective analysis. Second, if I make a stand over this other woman I think I risk losing her of really hurting our marriage.


----------



## Livvie

OP earlier in the thread didn't you say these group discussions are one or two hours a day??


----------



## Thor

Married but Happy said:


> Of course it matters. Irrationality, superstition, ignorance, bias, etc., should ALL be pushed back. It's HOW you do so that matters, and that can lead to good - or bad - results, depending.


So far it is reported that OP's W is concerned only really about this one woman. She doesn't get on him about smiling at a waitress when they go out to dinner. She doesn't accuse him of cheating with the neighbor or constantly question where he's been when he gets home from work. What I get from this is that his W is for whatever reason very prickly about this one woman. So I say it doesn't matter why because for his W this one woman is a BFD to her. This other woman has no other impact on their lives. She isn't a boss, landlord, parent, or anything else where keeping a good relationship would potentially help in the future.

If a spouse is routinely upset about a wide variety of situations, then they indeed may have some deeper problem which should be confronted. OP's situation does not seem to me to be in this category.


----------



## FalCod

Is it just this woman? Would she respond the same way to any woman? To me, that is a big distinction. I think it would be very unreasonable to ban my wife from having any male friends and I wouldn't accept a ban from me having female friends. But if an occasional person comes along that seems off, I don't think it would be unreasonable to request distance from that person.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Jdwino92 said:


> The problem is she makes choices based on intuition mostly and I go based on logic, facts and objective analysis. Second, if I make a stand over this other woman I think I risk losing her of really hurting our marriage.



oh, ok, Mr. Fact based. My husband tried to make me out to be crazy as well, but far too many times, with just one or two facts, I can predict what's going to happen next. For example, I knew my husband's just a friend ex was going to advise him to dump him. And sure enough, there was text in which she advised that. 

I've also made predictions about current events. I keep saying that the government is trying to turn Puerto Rico into a wasteland so that hedge fund can go in, buy up the property and in the next decade it will be one giant casino. My husband mentioned to me yestarday that he is now finding articles about how some investors have been buying in.... guess where, Puerto Rico.

Go ahead, call your wife cray-cray with whatever words you choose. But you won't dispute her methods when she is usually right...... and you've drained all the goodwill out of the relationship.


----------



## Adelais

Jdwino92 said:


> So here’s some questions for all of you
> 
> I am not trying to discount my wife or overrule her. I feel like that’s what she’s trying to do to me. I don’t think it’s healthy if either of us has the *power* to tell the other what to do without discourse. I think the issue runs far deeper than she’s uncomfortable with this woman, I think she doesn’t trust me or has other issues that may or may not be related to me. I could be doing something wrong somewhere else in our relationship for example. I don’t think though that it’s as simple as “anytime your partner doesn’t like something , give them what they want


She doesn't have any *power* over you just because she would like you to change your behavior. She is not abusing her power asking you to stop talking with women on the internet.

You have confused having the right to voice one's opinion and ask the spouse to do or not do something, with one spouse having *power* over the other.

Your wife has the right to ask something of you, and then if you don't do it, she has the power to decide for herself if it is a deal breaker and get out of the relationship if she decides it is.

You have the power over yourself to do what your wife asks of you or to ignore her. If you find her too demanding, you can ask her to stop being that way. If she doesn't comply, and you realize the two of you are not a good match, you have the power over yourself to get end the relationship.


----------



## Jdwino92

Livvie said:


> OP earlier in the thread didn't you say these group discussions are one or two hours a day??


Ok let me clear up any confusion

We have once a month in person meet ups. 

We also have a Facebook messenger group chat

We all talk on this group chat On Facebook , I wouldn’t say that I talk on it every day but it would be fair to say i talk on it most days. Sometimes the conversations will be more in depth to an hour or two but for the most part I only spend parts of my breaks at work talking on my scheduled breaks or other downtime I would have where I am not at home with my family. Also I always make it a point to call my wife before I do anything else whenever I have a break at work. 

The same pattern follows for any one on one Facebook messenger conversations I have with this woman. There have been times where we’ve had longer in-depth conversations but for the most part our conversations range from a few back-and-forth messages a day to 10 to 20 minutes. It’s not consistent, some days I don’t talk to her or anyone in the group chat, there might be a fair are days where I spend I can’t go to the mountain 20 to 40 minutes between talking to her on and off the group chat with everybody else, And infrequently we will have a really long in-depth conversations on the group chat and several times I’ve had longer in-depth conversation with this woman as well when we are having disagreements usually about something politicall or philosophical. But I have pretty much always been conscientious To keep these conversations on my own time and not have them interfere with family time. And I also try to talk to my wife at work as much as I can as well. Pretty frequently my wife and I will FaceTime and talk and she will show me the kids and I’ll interact with the kids as well. 

Also it might sound cliche but this woman has reAched our to Bria and tried to befriend her, this woman is the only female in the group and wants more female friends. 

I get the what if she comes on to me concern but that could happen with a stranger too. No one is above being tempted but I think what’s important is I don’t cross any lines as far I can tell. I don’t do anything with this woman in person. Period, except for the group meet ups. If she ever came on to me I would tell her to check herself. I don’t think she’d ever do that but if she did then that would be a moral failing on her part and any desire I have to be friends with her would die.


----------



## NextTimeAround

> I get the what if she comes on to me concern but that could happen with a stranger too.


The difference is that with Ms Tax Codes and Post Modernism, you will have already been groomed and programmed to say yes. You're more likely, I would hope, to be able to resist a stranger.


----------



## Jdwino92

She doesn’t trust any woman I get close to really. I’ve backed off before, because she would make a big deal in the beginning. This has been 8 months and I genuinely care about this person as a friend and also like being a part of this group. I’m completely willing to limit though my time spent talking to her, but now my wife basically wants me to take a hiatus from being part of the group at all because to her I’ve ignored her feelings for 8 months. I told her it isn’t that simple. I don’t think it’s consideratemor right for a spouse to tell the other to end a friendship based solely on their feelings. The extend of this friendship has been entirely appropriate, she has watched me talk to her for months and there’s no smoking gun. I’ve gone days or weeks not talking to this woman, and sometimes I talk to her a lot, which is on par with all of my friends. I have put my wife first through all of this except not thinking her initial request ,that she has now put forrth as almost a demand, that I had to just ignore and stop talking to someone outright was reasonable.


----------



## TRy

Married but Happy said:


> I can point out that always caving to her wishes and never expressing or standing up for your own can make you appear weak, and cost you her respect.


This is a straw man argument as there is no indication that the OP is "always caving to her wishes and never expressing or standing up" for himself, or that the OP's wife is even asking for that. What we have here is the OP's wife's gut telling her to ask the OP to not text this specific woman so much. Taking a specific request about a specific woman is not an "always". 



Married but Happy said:


> You have given her all the power in this relationship. You may have lost her respect, too - I don't know, but it's a reasonable assumption. IMO, you should reclaim some of the power and respect and use it to reach appropriate compromises. If you always continue to act out of fear, you've already lost - and your self respect will follow. A starting place may be the short book (or pdf download), "No More Mr. Nice Guy." See if you see yourself in the examples, and explore using some of the techniques to regain your self.


Again, there is no indication from what the OP has stated that the OP has "given her all the power in this relationship". Straw man arguments where you loosely throw around such words as "always", "never", and "all", are not helpful to the conversation.


----------



## Adelais

Hope I am not making a suggestion that has already been made since I have not read every post on this thread.

If you haven't read it already, you need to read the book LoveBusters, by Willard Harley.

Then you need to read the book, His Needs Her Needs, by Willard Harley.

Your continuing to speak with a woman online is a LoveBuster to our wife, even if she doesn't know the term "LoveBuster." If you continue down this path, you will continue to hurt her and kill her love bit by bit.

I find it amazing you are defending your "friendship" over your wife's feelings, intuition, whatever she wants to call it.

I am a woman, I also like to talk about things my husband isn't interested in. However, I do not make "friendships" or carry on conversations with members of the opposite sex via Private Message. That is my boundary, and I stick to it. The other day I PMed someone for some information that I didn't think they wanted public. After giving the information, they asked me some conversational, friendly (innocent seeming) questions. I told them they seemed to be a nice person, but that I don't carry on PM conversations with men because I am married. Their last PM let me know that they thought that was "Excellent" and assured me they would not PM me again.

That is how you and your female "friend" should be responding to each other. Instead you are upset about the idea of ending the "friendship." I believe you are firmly in an Emotional Affair. If and when you decide to end it, you will have withdrawals, because she has some of your head and heart space, she feeds your need for validation, and there will be a vacuum. 

You will need to go to your wife to fill that, and in the future have your political conversations from men, so they don't take up head and heart space.


----------



## Prodigal

Jdwino92 said:


> If you read my post, I said I do have a group of people who are in the local area who I talk to on a fairy regular basis, everyday or most days. She is part of this group, we have monthly meet ups and a group chat.


Uh, yeah, I READ it. And I responded. It's not the group I referred to. It's one specific woman. The one with whom your wife has issues. FIND SOME OTHER MEMBER OF THE GROUP TO HAVE ONE-ON-ONES WITH. 

Jeesh!


----------



## Jdwino92

Ok well you or someone or my wife is going to have to show me how talking about these subjects is conditioning me to blow my marriage up lol.


----------



## cashcratebob

Look, you gotta find out what you value, a happy home or something far less. You are young and have an opportunity right now to have your relationship grow/evolve into something better by making the right call right now. 

Others have already made the point, surely there are others you can have these types of conversations with? Your wife doesn't like something about this relationship you have; she doesn't need to explain because maybe she can't quite put her finger on it. But it is there. There are men that I have no issue with my wife talking to, ex-boyfriends, whatever, because her reaction to them puts me entirely at ease. But there are other situations where something is just off...where I am not at ease and that situation gets handled. This is quite possibly where your wife is at (as others have said it multiple times and far better than me). She sees something, possible (likely) in you that she doesn't like, that unsettles her when you engage in conversation with this girl. Your fact based approach likely misses it. That is just the human condition man. 

You mention religion a lot, are you a person of faith? A lot is said in the Christian faith regarding how husbands ought to treat their wives; breaking off a relationship that makes a spouse uncomfortable falls right in line with treating her right.


----------



## Married but Happy

TRy said:


> This is a straw man argument as there is no indication that the OP is "always caving to her wishes and never expressing or standing up" for himself, or that the OP's wife is even asking for that. What we have here is the OP's wife's gut telling her to ask the OP to not text this specific woman so much as. Taking a specific request about a specific woman is not an "always".
> 
> Again, there is no indication from what the OP has stated that the OP has "given her all the power in this relationship".
> 
> Straw man arguments where you loosely throw around such words as "always", "never", and "all", are not helpful to the conversation.


Try reading OP's post, # 23, and see if you still have this opinion.


----------



## Robert22205

I think your wife sounds pretty reasonable. She's not asking you to stop having friends or your satisfying conversations ... she's just asking you to limit contact with this one woman that you have ongoing connection with. Your wife sees the intellectual or whatever connection (even if you refuse) and the potential for it to grow and divert attention from your family. I think a spouse's right to be concerned about your female friend takes priority over your right to include this female in your chat group - stop it! I can't imagine why this one woman is so critical to your overall enjoyment. Your wife is trying to protect your marriage - you should be grateful to her. 

Also, and I'm not accusing you of anything, but how often do we hear on this forum that a cheating spouse said: 'we're just friends' or 'i need my space' or ' or 'it's just coffee' or 'it's just dancing'.


----------



## Robert22205

You said you make choices based on logic, facts and objective analysis (and she doesn't). I'm not a lawyer but I've worked with lawyers for over 30 years. They can argue effectively on either side of an issue - using logic, facts and objective analysis. The logic, facts and objective analysis is really not controlling in reaching a 'choice' but rather it's the underlying core values that give rise to the logic etc. Your wife may not be able to effectively articulate the logic, facts and objective analysis that impresses you - but she for sure knows what core values are driving her choice (her family). You're lucky you have her.


----------



## Adelais

Jdwino92 said:


> She’s almost or is 30, I’m not exactly sure. My wife and I are both 26
> 
> I don’t hang around with this woman period except at the group meet ups. I don’t spend money on her period. I don’t talk on the phone with her. Just Facebook messenger, we talk on a group chat and *sometimes just to each other.
> *
> I get really passionate and excited about these subjects, politics, philosophy, religion. Perhaps too much excitement over them, if I’m being honest. Although I think it’s a good and a bad thing.


You need to tell your female friend that from now on, all talk with be done publicly, through the group chat. No more private chatting. If she continues to try to chat privately, you don't respond. You might even have to tell her in the group chat that you'd like her to stop contacting you privately.

See? I'm talking with you, a guy, but it is being done publically, not privately. My husband will not ever be jealous of you, unless he reads flirtatiousness in the public conversation.

You need to get what is done in secret out into the open. However, because you overstepped the line with this woman by carrying on private conversations, you just might have to end the friendship all together.


----------



## TRy

Jdwino92 said:


> This has been 8 months and I genuinely care about this person as a friend and also like being a part of this group. I’m completely willing to limit though my time spent talking to her, but now my wife basically wants me to take a hiatus from being part of the group at all because to her I’ve ignored her feelings for 8 months. I told her it isn’t that simple. I don’t think it’s consideratemor right for a spouse to tell the other to end a friendship based solely on their feelings.


In your wife's eyes you have "ignored her feelings for 8 months" about this other woman (OW) because you "genuinely care about" this OW, and you are now telling her that you will not "take a hiatus" based solely on her feelings because "it isn’t that simple". Read that over a few of times, and then tell me again that you do not understand why your wife might be concerned that you are too attached to this OW.


----------



## Jdwino92

Araucaria said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> She’s almost or is 30, I’m not exactly sure. My wife and I are both 26
> 
> I don’t hang around with this woman period except at the group meet ups. I don’t spend money on her period. I don’t talk on the phone with her. Just Facebook messenger, we talk on a group chat and *sometimes just to each other.
> *
> I get really passionate and excited about these subjects, politics, philosophy, religion. Perhaps too much excitement over them, if I’m being honest. Although I think it’s a good and a bad thing.
> 
> 
> 
> You need to tell your female friend that from now on, all talk with be done publicly, through the group chat. No more private chatting. If she continues to try to chat privately, you don't respond. You might even have to tell her in the group chat that you'd like her to stop contacting you privately.
> 
> See? I'm talking with you, a guy, but it is being done publically, not privately. My husband will not ever be jealous of you, unless he reads flirtatiousness in the public conversation.
> 
> You need to get what is done in secret out into the open. However, because you overstepped the line with this woman by carrying on private conversations, you just might have to end the friendship all together.
Click to expand...

I think most dramamtic to call when I’m doing keeping secrets. But I have agreed with my wife that I will focus on talking to the group and only talking to her in the group, not one on one, if that helps her feel better.


----------



## Adelais

Jdwino92 said:


> Ok let me clear up any confusion
> 
> *We have once a month in person meet ups. *
> 
> We also have a Facebook messenger group chat
> 
> We all talk on this group chat On Facebook , I wouldn’t say that I talk on it every day but it would be fair to say i talk on it most days. Sometimes the conversations will be more in depth to an hour or two but for the most part I only spend parts of my breaks at work talking on my scheduled breaks or other downtime I would have where I am not at home with my family. Also I always make it a point to call my wife before I do anything else whenever I have a break at work.
> 
> *The same pattern follows for any one on one Facebook messenger conversations I have with this woman. *There have been times where we’ve had longer in-depth conversations but for the most part our conversations range from a few back-and-forth messages a day to 10 to 20 minutes. It’s not consistent, some days I don’t talk to her or anyone in the group chat, there might be a fair are days where I spend I can’t go to the mountain 20 to 40 minutes between talking to her on and off the group chat with everybody else, And infrequently we will have a really long in-depth conversations on the group chat and* several times I’ve had longer in-depth conversation with this woman *as well when we are having disagreements usually about something politicall or philosophical. But I have pretty much always been conscientious To keep these conversations on my own time and not have them interfere with family time. And I also try to talk to my wife at work as much as I can as well. Pretty frequently my wife and I will FaceTime and talk and she will show me the kids and I’ll interact with the kids as well.
> 
> Also it might sound cliche but this woman has reAched our to Bria and tried to befriend her, this woman is the only female in the group and wants more female friends.
> 
> I get the what if she comes on to me concern but that could happen with a stranger too. No one is above being tempted but I think what’s important is I don’t cross any lines as far I can tell. I don’t do anything with this woman in person. Period, except for the group meet ups. If she ever came on to me I would tell her to check herself. I don’t think she’d ever do that but if she did then that would be a moral failing on her part and any desire I have to be friends with her would die.


You are privately carrying on with her. Then to top it off, you are meeting with her face-to-face at the meet-ups.

How many men from this group do you discuss things with privately, outside of the group?

Now you have to be honest with yourself with this question: Do you get butterflies or a nice feeling when you see she has messaged you? Do you feel exactly the same way when a man from the group messages you?

You are in an Emotional Affair with this woman. Neither of you has spoken any personal feelings, and you are still in the stage of keeping up appearances by only talking about political/philosophical things, but you both are well into feeling emotional about each other.

If you weren't, you would be willing to give up the "friendship" because it is causing unhappiness to your wife. You have plenty of other friendships that don't cause her grief.

If I were your wife, and with my life experience, I would be drawing up divorce papers already and planning how to split everything up. You had better grow up!

My husband's Emotional Affair grew out of a quick conversation with his friend's distraught wife, who was a predator and serial cheater. He didn't know her past, and gave her an ear to listen and a shoulder to cry on. She said some nice things about him, and all of the sudden he "realized" what a nice person she was, and that he wasn't happy in his marriage. After they blew up my marriage, she went on to blow up at least two more marriages that I know of. Now she is remarried and she and her family are desperate to keep her path of destruction a secret.

Eventually, you will hold all the little normal life problems against your wife, and think the group friend is so nice. You had better learn from other's experience, or your marriage will be nuked.


----------



## Jdwino92

Why does it matter that she’s a woman?

I wouldn’t let my wife tell me to end any of my friendships without due cause. I don’t view intuition alone as just cause. I wouldn’t expect my wife to listen to my requests if I justified them only with gut feelings and intuition.


----------



## Jdwino92

Araucaria said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok let me clear up any confusion
> 
> *We have once a month in person meet ups. *
> 
> We also have a Facebook messenger group chat
> 
> We all talk on this group chat On Facebook , I wouldn’t say that I talk on it every day but it would be fair to say i talk on it most days. Sometimes the conversations will be more in depth to an hour or two but for the most part I only spend parts of my breaks at work talking on my scheduled breaks or other downtime I would have where I am not at home with my family. Also I always make it a point to call my wife before I do anything else whenever I have a break at work.
> 
> *The same pattern follows for any one on one Facebook messenger conversations I have with this woman. *There have been times where we’ve had longer in-depth conversations but for the most part our conversations range from a few back-and-forth messages a day to 10 to 20 minutes. It’s not consistent, some days I don’t talk to her or anyone in the group chat, there might be a fair are days where I spend I can’t go to the mountain 20 to 40 minutes between talking to her on and off the group chat with everybody else, And infrequently we will have a really long in-depth conversations on the group chat and* several times I’ve had longer in-depth conversation with this woman *as well when we are having disagreements usually about something politicall or philosophical. But I have pretty much always been conscientious To keep these conversations on my own time and not have them interfere with family time. And I also try to talk to my wife at work as much as I can as well. Pretty frequently my wife and I will FaceTime and talk and she will show me the kids and I’ll interact with the kids as well.
> 
> Also it might sound cliche but this woman has reAched our to Bria and tried to befriend her, this woman is the only female in the group and wants more female friends.
> 
> I get the what if she comes on to me concern but that could happen with a stranger too. No one is above being tempted but I think what’s important is I don’t cross any lines as far I can tell. I don’t do anything with this woman in person. Period, except for the group meet ups. If she ever came on to me I would tell her to check herself. I don’t think she’d ever do that but if she did then that would be a moral failing on her part and any desire I have to be friends with her would die.
> 
> 
> 
> You are privately carrying on with her. Then to top it off, you are meeting with her face-to-face at the meet-ups.
> 
> How many men from this group do you discuss things with privately, outside of the group?
> 
> Now you have to be honest with yourself with this question: Do you get butterflies or a nice feeling when you see she has messaged you? Do you feel exactly the same way when a man from the group messages you?
> 
> You are in an Emotional Affair with this woman. Neither of you has spoken any personal feelings, and you are still in the stage of keeping up appearances by only talking about political/philosophical things, but you both are well into feeling emotional about each other.
> 
> If you weren't, you would be willing to give up the "friendship" because it is causing unhappiness to your wife. You have plenty of other friendships that don't cause her grief.
> 
> If I were your wife, and with my life experience, I would be drawing up divorce papers already and planning how to split everything up. You had better grow up!
> 
> My husband's Emotional Affair grew out of a quick conversation with his friend's distraught wife, who was a predator and serial cheater. He didn't know her past, and gave her an ear to listen and a shoulder to cry on. She said some nice things about him, and all of the sudden he "realized" what a nice person she was, and that he wasn't happy in his marriage. After they blew up my marriage, she went on to blow up at least two more marriages that I know of. Now she is remarried and she and her family are desperate to keep her path of destruction a secret.
> 
> Eventually, you will hold all the little normal life problems against your wife, and think the group friend is so nice. You had better learn from other's experience, or your marriage will be nuked.
Click to expand...

Yeah once a month I see them, she and her boyfriend along with like 10 other people. I hardly even talk to her at the group meet ups. 

I also talk to a male friend I met on there, although we don’t talk as much I’ll be honest. But I talk to all of them on the group chat everyday. 

I don’t get butterflies. We disagree on a lot and if anything I relish the opportunity to debate and prove her wrong, which is definitely a side product of my personality, I’m very argumentative. She is too though so it’s good sparring practice, so to speak. 

I’m sorry you’ve had bad relationships but don’t project your life experiences on me. I take solace in my wife, she’s my emotional anchor. This woman is a friend and I value the friendship. If my wife had a valued male friendship I would let her have it, and not make a big deal otherwise UNLESS I had evidence or some other good reason to believe something was afoot


----------



## personofinterest

Jdwino92 said:


> Why does it matter that she’s a woman?
> 
> I wouldn’t let my wife tell me to end any of my friendships without due cause. I don’t view intuition alone as just cause. I wouldn’t expect my wife to listen to my requests if I justified them only with gut feelings and intuition.


 Look, let's just drop everything and get down to what it really is. You came here expecting everyone to tell you that your wife was a crazy jealous nag. That's not what you heard from most of the experienced people on this board. You don't like it. I know what you're going to do. You're going to do whatever the heck you want and who cares how your wife feels. It is as plain as day. So why even continue this conversation? And less you're just trying to find more people to tell you how wrong your wife is. Enjoy your friendship and the inevitable affair that will follow. Hope you're happy


----------



## Thor

Do you understand the difference between a boundary and a demand? I think your wife is about to enforce her boundary with a very negative consequence...


----------



## Jdwino92

personofinterest said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does it matter that she’s a woman?
> 
> I wouldn’t let my wife tell me to end any of my friendships without due cause. I don’t view intuition alone as just cause. I wouldn’t expect my wife to listen to my requests if I justified them only with gut feelings and intuition.
> 
> 
> 
> Look, let's just drop everything and get down to what it really is. You came here expecting everyone to tell you that your wife was a crazy jealous nag. That's not what you heard from most of the experienced people on this board. You don't like it. I know what you're going to do. You're going to do whatever the heck you want and who cares how your wife feels. It is as plain as day. So why even continue this conversation? And less you're just trying to find more people to tell you how wrong your wife is. Enjoy your friendship and the inevitable affair that will follow. Hope you're happy
Click to expand...

Or, you don’t know me and you’re full of ****? 😜🤷‍♂️

If you read my responses you’d see I’ve talked to
My wife and we are working on some compromises. I came here attempting to gain some wisdom and clarity on the situation. I’m sorry I don’t just listen to people who are rude and ignorant and let them change my mind lol


----------



## Jdwino92

I care about her feelings. I care about our family. I just don’t think healthy relationships are based on the avoidance of problems.


----------



## personofinterest

Your language, your use of emoticons, and your general dismissive arrogance tell me that I'm exactly right about the kind of man you are. I am certain your wife, who spends every day with you, can feel exactly the same thing. Good luck


----------



## oldtruck

I have seen to many affairs start this way. Others have warned you yet you chose
to ignore those warnings.

When in a relationship one does not need opposite sex friends. Your job is to be your wife's
opposite sex friend and her job is to be yours.

You want to talk and debate, discuss issues. You do not need to do these things with a 
woman. 

There is no justification for you to ignore your wife's feelings about having opposite sex
friends.

Your choice. You choose to have an opposite sex relationship. There is no need to have one.
What you do with this woman you can do just as easily with a male friend.


----------



## Jdwino92

personofinterest said:


> Your language, your use of emoticons, and your general dismissive arrogance tell me that I'm exactly right about the kind of man you are. I am certain your wife, who spends every day with you, can feel exactly the same thing. Good luck


Dismissive arrogance is a funny insult coming from you who started out by being insulting and dismissive lol. You don’t know anything about me. My wife and I have talked and she is much happier now, and we are committed and feel as though this is going to be a really good learning and growing experience for us


----------



## Jdwino92

oldtruck said:


> I have seen to many affairs start this way. Others have warned you yet you chose
> to ignore those warnings.
> 
> When in a relationship one does not need opposite sex friends. Your job is to be your wife's
> opposite sex friend and her job is to be yours.
> 
> You want to talk and debate, discuss issues. You do not need to do these things with a
> woman.
> 
> There is no justification for you to ignore your wife's feelings about having opposite sex
> friends.
> 
> Your choice. You choose to have an opposite sex relationship. There is no need to have one.
> What you do with this woman you can do just as easily with a male friend.


“Do you have a penis?? I can’t talk to you if you don’t have a penis!!” 

Lol what a joke, tyrannical old fashioned gender paradigm


----------



## TRy

Jdwino92 said:


> I wouldn’t let my wife tell me to end any of my friendships without due cause. I don’t view intuition alone as just cause. I wouldn’t expect my wife to listen to my requests if I justified them only with gut feelings and intuition.


You are a skilled debater. Your wife is not. Right or wrong you will usually win the debate. She knows this, and if you are honest you know this. Thus you have given yourself an unfair advantage so that you can justify ignoring your wife's feelings and continue your relationship with this specific other woman. Want to hear logic, if hearing only your version of things has the vast majority on this site agreeing with your wife and not you, maybe there is some logic in what your wife is saying (even if she does not express it well).


----------



## SpinyNorman

This is TAM, many posters are looking for vicarious revenge for their bad experience so no one gets the benefit of the doubt. 

Interestingly, the same people who will tell you to Man Up are now telling you to say "Yes Dear" every time your wife objects to any such situation.


----------



## Jdwino92

Although I’m really really curious to have an Internet stranger tell me exactly who I am based on my reaction to said person being at best unintentionally irrational , rude and obtuse ?


----------



## SpinyNorman

TRy said:


> You are a skilled debater. Your wife is not. Right or wrong you will usually win the debate. She knows this, and if you are honest you know this. Thus you have given yourself an unfair advantage so that you can justify ignoring your wife's feelings and continue your relationship with this specific other woman. Want to hear logic, if hearing only your version of things has *the vast majority on this site agreeing with your wife and not you*, maybe there is some logic in what your wife is saying (even if she does not express it well).


I think the population of this site skews suspicious.


----------



## Cletus

Jdwino92 said:


> Although I’m really really curious to have an Internet stranger tell me exactly who I am based on my reaction to said person being at best unintentionally irrational , rude and obtuse ?


The internet has no shortage of people who know better than you how you should behave. 

They all congregate here.

Still, you asked for their advice. They are giving it. You're telling them to piss off. Perhaps this dislike for being told what to do is really at the heart of the problem? Yeah, I know the "Have fun ending your marriage, jackass" is off-putting, but hey - thin skins don't last long in TAM.


----------



## TRy

SpinyNorman said:


> I think the population of this site skews suspicious.


I think the population of this site skews experienced. BTW this is not the Infidelity section of this site where most have been cheated on. Many, myself included, have not been cheated on and came to this site hoping to improve their marriage.


----------



## Married but Happy

oldtruck said:


> Your choice. You choose to have an opposite sex relationship. There is no need to have one.
> What you do with this woman you can do just as easily with a male friend.


Then you wouldn't mind trading your wife in for a man, right? Oh, wait! False dichotomy. :grin2:

This really isn't about gender, IMO. It's about sharing viewpoints and intellectual pursuits. That's not a gender-specific ability, nor can any person substitute for another in this regard


----------



## Jdwino92

TRy said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn’t let my wife tell me to end any of my friendships without due cause. I don’t view intuition alone as just cause. I wouldn’t expect my wife to listen to my requests if I justified them only with gut feelings and intuition.
> 
> 
> 
> You are a skilled debater. Your wife is not. Right or wrong you will usually win the debate. She knows this, and if you are honest you know this. Thus you have given yourself an unfair advantage so that you can justify ignoring your wife's feelings and continue your relationship with this specific other woman. Want to hear logic, if hearing only your version of things has the vast majority on this site agreeing with your wife and not you, maybe there is some logic in what your wife is saying (even if she does not express it well).
Click to expand...

That’s a fair point, I’ll give you that. 

And I’m not ignoring everything here. I’m talking to my wife, we are going to go to counseling and we have agreed on some compromises


----------



## Jdwino92

SpinyNorman said:


> This is TAM, many posters are looking for vicarious revenge for their bad experience so no one gets the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> Interestingly, the same people who will tell you to Man Up are now telling you to say "Yes Dear" every time your wife objects to any such situation.


Yeah, I’m not ignoring everyone here but the automatic assumption of the worst possible scenario by so many has me laughing at this point. Of course it’s frustrating too because I want real advice for my marriage, but I guess some stranger on the internet told me I don’t care and will just do what I want anyway, right?


----------



## Jdwino92

Cletus said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Although I’m really really curious to have an Internet stranger tell me exactly who I am based on my reaction to said person being at best unintentionally irrational , rude and obtuse ?
> 
> 
> 
> The internet has no shortage of people who know better than you how you should behave.
> 
> They all congregate here.
> 
> Still, you asked for their advice. They are giving it. You're telling them to piss off. Perhaps this dislike for being told what to do is really at the heart of the problem?
Click to expand...

No, just the handful that are personifying me as their exes and the archetype of a man who doesn’t care about his wife or marriage.


----------



## Cletus

SpinyNorman said:


> I think the population of this site skews suspicious.





TRy said:


> I think the population of this site skews experienced.


I think the population of this site skews projection with a healthy dose of confirmation bias.


----------



## *Deidre*

Your wife should matter more than a random internet chick. If you are fighting over this, and you can't seem to give up this ''friendship,'' then...likely, your wife is right. And her ''intuition'' is spot on. There should be absolutely no struggle to give up the internet friendship, if it makes your wife uneasy.


----------



## tech-novelist

The upside of your continuing this friendship with this other woman is very limited, while the downside is very significant. Thus, you should logically be willing to abandon it to protect your marriage.

If you aren't willing to do that, then it looks to others as though you don't value your marriage as much as you should, compared to your friendship with this other woman.


----------



## Jdwino92

Married but Happy said:


> oldtruck said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your choice. You choose to have an opposite sex relationship. There is no need to have one.
> What you do with this woman you can do just as easily with a male friend.
> 
> 
> 
> Then you wouldn't mind trading your wife in for a man, right? Oh, wait! False dichotomy. <a href="http://cdn.talkaboutmarriage.net/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_grin.png" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" ></a>
> 
> This really isn't about gender, IMO. It's about sharing viewpoints and intellectual pursuits. That's not a gender-specific ability, nor can any person substitute for another in this regard
Click to expand...

Exactly. I’m not going to the movies with this woman or talking about our past or anything personal. I don’t know **** about this woman, I don’t even know her last name. Idk where she was born, idk anything outside her political and philosophical views. 

I’m also friends with her boyfriend who is part of the group, who has no problem with her and I talking in the manner we are. 

And still, I want to respect my wife and work through this. Your advice was best, we are making compromises and I still agreed to go sit down with a counselor.


----------



## Cletus

Jdwino92 said:


> Of course it’s frustrating too because I want real advice for my marriage, but I guess some stranger on the internet told me I don’t care and will just do what I want anyway, right?


The only advice I can give you is this: Is this the hill you want to die on? 

It might be, it might not be, but there should be some hill somewhere for which the answer is yes else your living someone else's definition of your life. I cannot tell you if this is The One.


----------



## Jdwino92

tech-novelist said:


> The upside of your continuing this friendship with this other woman is very limited, while the downside is very significant. Thus, you should logically be willing to abandon it to protect your marriage.
> 
> If you aren't willing to do that, then it looks to others as though you don't value your marriage as much as you should, compared to your friendship with this other woman.


It’s not just some random person. 

She’s the girlfriend of a friend. They are both in a group that I’m part of and care about being part of. 

So I’m willing to compromise, and we are doing just that. But defriending someone when nothing has happened is just ridiculous. 

Oh but ****! She has a vagina! Well, that changes EVERYTHING 

That’s so sexist


----------



## *Deidre*

Jdwino92 said:


> It’s not just some random person.
> 
> She’s the girlfriend of a friend. They are both in a group that I’m part of and care about being part of.
> 
> So I’m willing to compromise, and we are doing just that. But defriending someone when nothing has happened is just ridiculous.
> 
> Oh but ****! She has a vagina! Well, that changes EVERYTHING
> 
> That’s so sexist


Well, we all sit on here, some of us are married, and talk to one another in this forum. But, when you become focused on one person or a few set people over time, that could become different.

If it really bothers your wife, you should stop.


----------



## Jdwino92

*Deidre* said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It’s not just some random person.
> 
> She’s the girlfriend of a friend. They are both in a group that I’m part of and care about being part of.
> 
> So I’m willing to compromise, and we are doing just that. But defriending someone when nothing has happened is just ridiculous.
> 
> Oh but ****! She has a vagina! Well, that changes EVERYTHING
> 
> That’s so sexist
> 
> 
> 
> Well, we all
> sit on here, some of us are married, and talk to one another in this forum. But, when you become focused on one person or a few set people over time, that could become different.
> 
> If it really bothers your wife, you should stop.
Click to expand...

I don’t agree, I don’t think friendships of the opposite sex are so inherently bad that your spouse should be able to dictate to the other it must stop, not until and unless something bad actually happens. Now if I was neglecting my wife for any of my friends that would be bad. But that isn’t what she’s claiming. Just that she has a bad feeling about this woman. 

Which to me says she is jealous. Which of course I care about but the solution isn’t just to appease her


----------



## *Deidre*

Jdwino92 said:


> I don’t agree, I don’t think friendships of the opposite sex are so inherently bad that your spouse should be able to dictate to the other it must stop, not until and unless something bad actually happens. Now if I was neglecting my wife for any of my friends that would be bad. But that isn’t what she’s claiming. Just that she has a bad feeling about this woman.
> 
> Which to me says she is jealous. Which of course I care about but the solution isn’t just to appease her


I have friends of the opposite sex, so does my husband. We have mutual friends, mainly together. So I have nothing against actual friendships, but this doesn't sound like a friendship. A friendship is when you actually hang out, and care about others. This sounds like you get attention from a female other than your wife on the internet, and that's what you enjoy. That's what bothers your wife, that this other woman offers you something she isn't. 

It's not marriage ending, but if it offends your wife, you should stop it. I don't see why that's hard for you to do. 

Pride is a marriage killer. My mom told me that. I tend to believe her.


----------



## Jdwino92

*Deidre* said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t agree, I don’t think friendships of the opposite sex are so inherently bad that your spouse should be able to dictate to the other it must stop, not until and unless something bad actually happens. Now if I was neglecting my wife for any of my friends that would be bad. But that isn’t what she’s claiming. Just that she has a bad feeling about this woman.
> 
> Which to me says she is jealous. Which of course I care about but the solution isn’t just to appease her
> 
> 
> 
> I have friends of the opposite sex, so does my husband. We have mutual friends, mainly together. So I have nothing against actual friendships, but this doesn't sound like a friendship. A friendship is when you actually hang out, and care about others. This sounds like you get attention from a female other than your wife on the internet, and that's what you enjoy. That's what bothers your wife, that this other woman offers you something she isn't.
> 
> It's not marriage ending, but if it offends your wife, you should stop it. I don't see why that's hard for you to do.
> 
> Pride is a marriage killer. My mom told me that. I tend to believe her.
Click to expand...

Idk why it seems that way to you, but it’s a genuine friendship. I put up healthy appropriate walls for it being an OS friendship, because I’m not stupid. But I like her as a friend and I like her boyfriend too, we are also friends. I want my wife to join the group and be friends with all of us but she has trust issues and is very introverted


----------



## *Deidre*

Jdwino92 said:


> Idk why it seems that way to you, but it’s a genuine friendship. I put up healthy appropriate walls for it being an OS friendship, because I’m not stupid. But I like her as a friend and I like her boyfriend too, we are also friends. I want my wife to join the group and be friends with all of us but she has trust issues and is very introverted


That changes things a bit. You invited her to the group. That's too bad she doesn't want to join. I'm out of advice then 

My apologies for thinking you're up to no good!


----------



## SpinyNorman

tech-novelist said:


> The upside of your continuing this friendship with this other woman is very limited, while the downside is very significant. Thus, you should logically be willing to abandon it to protect your marriage.
> 
> *If you aren't willing to do that, then it looks to others as though you don't value your marriage as much as you should,* compared to your friendship with this other woman.


I don't think you have to unequivocally capitulate to your spouse's every demand to value your marriage. In fact, I wouldn't value a marriage where that was expected at all.


----------



## SpinyNorman

Cletus said:


> The only advice I can give you is this: Is this the hill you want to die on?
> 
> It might be, it might not be, but there should be some hill somewhere for which the answer is yes else your living someone else's definition of your life. I cannot tell you if this is The One.


I view it as if you aren't willing to stand for yourself, you will die a bit each day of the marriage.


----------



## SpinyNorman

TRy said:


> I think the population of this site skews experienced. BTW this is not the Infidelity section of this site where most have been cheated on. Many, myself included, have not been cheated on and came to this site hoping to improve their marriage.


Experienced at what? If it's being cheated on, I don't feel intimidated.


----------



## TRy

Jdwino92 said:


> That’s a fair point, I’ll give you that.
> 
> And I’m not ignoring everything here. I’m talking to my wife, we are going to go to counseling and we have agreed on some compromises


 BTW, when I told you that "You are a skilled debater. Your wife is not. Right or wrong you will usually win the debate. She knows this, and if you are honest you know this. Thus you have given yourself an unfair advantage", I was speaking from experience as I have the same dynamic in my marriage, and had to learn to not take advantage of my wife in this way. I actually look to argue her points as much as mine and see if she agrees with the logic. It really helps me see things from her point of view. Bottom line, the goal is not to win, but to do the right thing for our marriage.


----------



## The Middleman

Jacob Winograd said:


> I don’t think though that it’s as simple as “anytime your partner doesn’t like something , give them what they want


I don’t think we are saying “give them what they want”, but we are not talking about things like what to have for dinner, or what movie to watch, or even something as important as what schoool to send your kids to, where dialogue and give & take is important. Opposite sex friendships can permanently change a marriage and If one spouse is uncomfortable with it, the other spouse needs to let it go of either the friendship or the marriage. There is no compromising.


----------



## Jdwino92

*Deidre* said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Idk why it seems that way to you, but it’s a genuine friendship. I put up healthy appropriate walls for it being an OS friendship, because I’m not stupid. But I like her as a friend and I like her boyfriend too, we are also friends. I want my wife to join the group and be friends with all of us but she has trust issues and is very introverted
> 
> 
> 
> That changes things a bit. You invited her to the group. That's too bad she doesn't want to join. I'm out of advice then <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" ></a>
> 
> My apologies for thinking you're up to no good!
Click to expand...

No problem, thanks you. 

I’m hoping at counseling we can work on understanding each other better, and my hope is the counselor would encourage her to be a part of my circle of friends like she would want me to do for her friends - but also the problem is she doesn’t have a circle of friends, and I really think she would fit in with this one. 

I’m sure there are things that i haven’t done perfectly either that have made the situation worse and hopefully through counseling I can be made further aware of those things so I can apologize and learn from it. I think our marriage will get better through this 🙂


----------



## SpinyNorman

The Middleman said:


> I don’t think we are saying “give them what they want”, but we are not talking about things like what to have for dinner, or what movie to watch, or even something as important as what schoool to send your kids to, where dialogue and give & take is important. Opposite sex friendships can permanently change a marriage and If one spouse is uncomfortable with it, the other spouse needs to let it go of either the friendship or the marriage. There is no compromising.


Nearly anything, including dozens of things we have no control over, can change a marriage, for better and for worse.

I consider having my friendships vetoed without cause to be very, very important.


----------



## Jdwino92

TRy said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That’s a fair point, I’ll give you that.
> 
> And I’m not ignoring everything here. I’m talking to my wife, we are going to go to counseling and we have agreed on some compromises
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, when I told you that "You are a skilled debater. Your wife is not. Right or wrong you will usually win the debate. She knows this, and if you are honest you know this. Thus you have given yourself an unfair advantage", I was speaking from experience as I have the same dynamic in my marriage, and had to learn to not take advantage of my wife in this way. I actually look to argue her points as much as mine and see if she agrees with the logic. It really helps me see things from her point of view. Bottom line, the goal is not to win, but to do the right thing for our marriage.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think it’s like - just because you can win the argument doesn’t mean you should. 

That’s good advice, I should try to argue her side as well as mine. I don’t want to win for sale of pride, but when we disagree idk the best way to settle it, other than arbitrarily agreeing with her when it doesn’t matter to me but I don’t think that’s good either.


----------



## EleGirl

I fixed your user name problem.


----------



## HiMaint57

I want to share what happened to me. First, I acknowledge fully that I made many mistakes in our marriage that led to our divorce that I deeply regret and want to change. But here goes:

-- 25 years ago, my then-husband befriends a woman (OSF) he meets through church involvement. I get to know her, she employs my children at her business, and she becomes a family friend. OSF has never been married.
-- Husband interacts with OSF on church committees, fixes her business machinery, works with her on dj gigs (until 3 AM), and texts/e-mails her regularly. I have never known his passwords. I don't say anything because I trust him and don't want to be a possessive wife.
-- Husband has motorcycle accident in 2008 -- I live at hospital, feed him, do his laundry, etc. and am glad to do so. OSF visits often and helps him investigate accident. I notice he seems much more interested in interacting with her than with me. I don't say anything because I trust him and don't want to be a possessive wife.
-- Years go by, all types of physical affection between H and me somehow stops, we grow apart, he acts like he doesn't want me around anymore. Relationship continues with OSF and now includes accompanying her to frequent medical appointments, assisting with her alcoholism recovery, fixing her car/appliances, and visiting her family (in addition to all previous things I mentioned). I don't say anything because I trust him and don't want to be a possessive wife.
-- Three years ago I leave the marriage. We live separately for a year and a half, he then makes the offer (based on OSF advice) that I can move back & live with him but with no expectations that we would work on the marriage, and that OSF would continue as a friend. I try for two weeks but can't do the "no expectations" thing, so I move out again. I start thinking that he and OSF are having an emotional affair (just a bit naive, right?). I trusted him and didn't want to be a possessive wife!
-- Last September we divorced and are now going through annulment proceedings. OSF and ex are still "friends" and who knows what else. He won't admit to anything. 

He is a good man who needed a more suspicious and less trusting wife.


----------



## SpinyNorman

HiMaint57 said:


> He is a good man who needed a more suspicious and less trusting wife.


I disagree.

There are good people who must be checked up on to remain good. They are known as children.


----------



## Adelais

Jdwino92 said:


> Yeah once a month I see them, she and her boyfriend along with like 10 other people. I hardly even talk to her at the group meet ups.
> 
> I also talk to a male friend I met on there, although we don’t talk as much I’ll be honest. But I talk to all of them on the group chat everyday.
> 
> I don’t get butterflies. We disagree on a lot and if anything *I relish the opportunity to debate and prove her wrong,* Oh, you "relish" it. That's a descriptive word to describe simple conversations.which is definitely a side product of my personality, I’m very argumentative. She is too though so it’s good sparring practice, so to speak.
> 
> I’m sorry you’ve had bad relationships but don’t project your life experiences on me. I take solace in my wife, *she’s my emotional anchor.* Really? Then why are you not taking her feelings seriously, and protecting her from unnecessary pain from your EA partner? This woman is a friend and I value the friendship. If my wife had a valued male friendship I would let her have it, and not make a big deal otherwise UNLESS I had evidence or some other good reason to believe something was afoot


Sounds like you are going to go down in flames, justifying your actions the whole way down. Good luck, you are going to need it.


----------



## Adelais

Jdwino92 said:


> Or, you don’t know me and you’re full of ****? 😜🤷‍♂️
> 
> If you read my responses you’d see I’ve talked to
> My wife and we are working on some compromises. *I came here attempting to gain some wisdom and clarity on the situation.* I’m sorry I don’t just listen to people who are rude and ignorant and let them change my mind lol


You have received responses from wise (and mostly older experienced) people, and you refuse to acknowledge much less follow their wisdom. Then you call the wise people rude and ignorant because they didn't support your EA, and told you exactly what you are doing.

Get two copies of the book Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass. Give one to your wife, and you read the other. Your relationship with your "friend" is described in that book. Your situation is not as unique as you think.

Also get the other two books I recommended: Love Busters and His Needs Her Needs by Willard Harley. I plan to give each of my children a copy of both of the Harley books when they get married. Every married couple needs to know the information in Harley's books to start out on a good footing.

I promise you that your wife is not going to ever feel better about any woman you have secret conversations with every day.

What you are doing to her is emotional abuse, as well as undermining her trust and ultimately her love for you.

You, buddy, are a ticking time bomb. You feel entitled to speak with women privately, outside of the group chat, then you try to pretend that her being a woman means nothing to you. We all know otherwise.

We know that it doesn't matter to the two of you that you are married and she has a boyfriend. It never does.

Just wondering why you two start talking privately by message instead of doing it all inside the group, so everyone can see everything. Is it because you are talking too much and you don't want to bother the other members with your chatter? Shouldn't that be a sign to you? Or is it that you don't want them to know what you are saying? Shouldn't that give you a clue?


----------



## Jdwino92

Araucaria said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah once a month I see them, she and her boyfriend along with like 10 other people. I hardly even talk to her at the group meet ups.
> 
> I also talk to a male friend I met on there, although we don’t talk as much I’ll be honest. But I talk to all of them on the group chat everyday.
> 
> I don’t get butterflies. We disagree on a lot and if anything *I relish the opportunity to debate and prove her wrong,* Oh, you "relish" it. That's a descriptive word to describe simple conversations.which is definitely a side product of my personality, I’m very argumentative. She is too though so it’s good sparring practice, so to speak.
> 
> I’m sorry you’ve had bad relationships but don’t project your life experiences on me. I take solace in my wife, *she’s my emotional anchor.* Really? Then why are you not taking her feelings seriously, and protecting her from unnecessary pain from your EA partner? This woman is a friend and I value the friendship. If my wife had a valued male friendship I would let her have it, and not make a big deal otherwise UNLESS I had evidence or some other good reason to believe something was afoot
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like you are going to go down in flames, justifying your actions the whole way down. Good luck, you are going to need it.
Click to expand...

I like to debate, so knowing someone who likes to debate too is nice, I get excited about the intellectual challenge. Not her ****ing vagina. 

I’m beginning to see why someone wouldn’t want to live with you though


----------



## Adelais

Jdwino92 said:


> Dismissive arrogance is a funny insult coming from you who started out by being insulting and dismissive lol. You don’t know anything about me. My wife and I have talked and she is much happier now, and we are committed and feel as though this is going to be a really good learning and growing experience for us


So you started this thread at 7:50 p.m. last night, and by 3:08 p.m. today your wife is much happier already? I don't believe that. Maybe she has a weak hope you will keep your word, and that she can calm down her gut feelings. 

A growing experience for the two of you? I sure hope so: I hope she will no longer put up with your manipulative words about your right to have close friendships with members of the opposite sex. I also hope that you start acting like a devoted husband who has only one female he is emotionally connected to: your wife.

You have quick answers for everything. I'm sure your poor wife is overwhelmed by you. And now you have set up a situation where she has to worry about another woman in her life.

You do know that one of the few people who is on your side is in an open marriage? The rest of us are monogamous, except for another poster who is into open marriage. What does that tell you?


----------



## Jdwino92

I don’t feel entitled to talk to women or anyone. I feel entitled to be an autonomous person. I have only been rude to people who were rude to me. Actually mainly the only person I’ve been rude to is you. 

Also, we started talking before I joined the group. She saw me talking to people on Facebook and messaged me thanking me for saying what I was saying , I can’t remember what the subject was. She told me me about the group, I came and met them along with her boyfriend. We talk in the group chat and sometimes just between us because why the **** not? We aren’t doing anything bad. Neither is it hidden, my wife sees all the messages.


----------



## Adelais

SpinyNorman said:


> I don't think you have to unequivocally capitulate to your spouse's *every demand* to value your marriage. In fact, I wouldn't value a marriage where that was expected at all.


No one suggested he capitulate to his wife's *every demand*. We have only suggested he cut out the garbage with his female friend, whm he "really values the friendship" and with whom he private messages outside the group.


----------



## Adelais

Jdwino92 said:


> I like to debate, so knowing someone who likes to debate too is nice, I get excited about the intellectual challenge. Not her ****ing vagina.
> 
> *I’m beginning to see why someone wouldn’t want to live with you though*


Haha! I haven't invited you to live with me....so why would you even think or say that?

Do you see where your mind goes?


----------



## Adelais

Jdwino92 said:


> I like to debate, so knowing someone who likes to debate too is nice, I get excited about the intellectual challenge. Not her ****ing vagina.


You're part of a _*whole group*_ of people who like to debate about politics and philosophy. Why didn't you choose a guy sparring partner who wouldn't have made your wife feel uncomfortable ? Why did you choose the only female????


----------



## Adelais

Hey Jdwino92, did you notice that we are sparring....but in public! Have you shown your wife this thread? I'd love to hear what she has to say about it. I bet she won't be jealous of me, because she can clearly see that I am not throwing you ego kibbles.


----------



## TRy

Jdwino92 said:


> Also, we started talking before I joined the group. She saw me talking to people on Facebook and messaged me thanking me for saying what I was saying , I can’t remember what the subject was. She told me me about the group


Wait a minute, you joined the group at the other woman’s invitation? So your wife could reasonable be seeing this as you joining this group because you wanting to spend time with the other woman.



Jdwino92 said:


> Neither is it hidden, my wife sees all the messages.


 It may not be hidden, but after your “wife sees all the messages” her gut tells her that something is wrong and she wants you to put a stop to it.


----------



## TRy

Araucaria said:


> You're part of a _*whole group*_ of people who like to debate about politics and philosophy. Why didn't you choose a guy sparring partner who wouldn't have made your wife feel uncomfortable ? Why did you choose the only female????


 In answer to your question to the OP as to “Why did you choose the only female?”, the answer is because she was the one that invited him into joining this group. This is a group of her friends. I can see even more now why the OP’s wife is concerned about them growing too close, and why the OP’s wife would feel uncomfortable with this group.


----------



## Adelais

Jdwino92 said:


> It’s not just some random person.
> 
> *She’s the girlfriend of a friend.* They are both in a group that I’m part of and care about being part of.
> 
> So I’m willing to compromise, and we are doing just that. But defriending someone when nothing has happened is just ridiculous.
> 
> Oh but ****! She has a vagina! Well, that changes EVERYTHING
> 
> That’s so sexist


So at first, you tried to give the impression that she is the girlfriend of a friend. IOW, you are better friends with the guy, and she just happens to be his girlfriend, so of course you have to be polite to her, right?


Jdwino92 said:


> *Also, we started talking before I joined the group. She saw me talking to people on Facebook and messaged me thanking me for saying what I was saying , I can’t remember what the subject was. She told me me about the group, I came and met them along with her boyfriend. *We talk in the group chat and sometimes just between us because why the **** not? We aren’t doing anything bad. Neither is it hidden, my wife sees all the messages.


Then the truth comes out. She reached out to you, a stranger at the time through private message on FB, with flattering comments. She invited to to her group, and after that you finally met her boyfriend.

Are you PMing her boyfriend at all? Only your ladyfriend?

If your wife has been trickle truthed the same way we have been, it is no wonder gut is screaming at her.


----------



## NextTimeAround

SpinyNorman said:


> I think the population of this site skews suspicious.


I used to think OSFs were just fine until I got burned too many times by women acted as if and sometimes verbalized "my friendship with your husband has nothing to do with you."

After ac couple times with that, you start developing early warning signals and boundaries. so what if it turns out that that she wasn't like that. of course, because if you have good boundaries in place it won't come to that. They should still observe the unwritten social rules.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Jdwino92 said:


> Exactly. I’m not going to the movies with this woman or talking about our past or anything personal. I don’t know **** about this woman, I don’t even know her last name. Idk where she was born, idk anything outside her political and philosophical views.
> 
> I’m also friends with her boyfriend who is part of the group, who has no problem with her and I talking in the manner we are. *Why don't you 4 go on a double date?*
> 
> And still, I want to respect my wife and work through this. Your advice was best, we are making compromises and I still agreed to go sit down with a counselor. *What do you hope to achieve by seeing a counselor?*


----------



## Jdwino92

NextTimeAround said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. I’m not going to the movies with this woman or talking about our past or anything personal. I don’t know **** about this woman, I don’t even know her last name. Idk where she was born, idk anything outside her political and philosophical views.
> 
> I’m also friends with her boyfriend who is part of the group, who has no problem with her and I talking in the manner we are. *Why don't you 4 go on a double date?*
> 
> And still, I want to respect my wife and work through this. Your advice was best, we are making compromises and I still agreed to go sit down with a counselor. *What do you hope to achieve by seeing a
> counselor?*
Click to expand...

I have said that I invite my wife the the group hangouts and would be open to double dates , my wife isn’t interested at this time. 

I hope the counselor helps us understand one another.


----------



## LTCNurse

Jdwino92 said:


> Ok but she’s jealous for more than just my time. And in one week if I message this woman like three or four times that’s a big deal. Sometimes A good day for my wife and I is ruined if she’s opens my phone and sees I sent even one message to this friend. I have other friends who I talk to a lot and see in person and hang out with.



SERIOUSLY??? Big.Red.Flag. 

Find a mutual interest with your wife. Invest in her and family, internet groups are a dime a dozen and we really never know any of these online people IRL even if we meet with them once per month. It's definitely not worth rocking the marriage boat and yours is about to flip over.


----------



## TRy

@OP: You calling this other woman (OW) a “She’s the girlfriend of a friend” was deliberately misleading, in your attempt to paint your wife as jealous and controlling. I can only imagine what we would learn if your wife got to tell us her side without your spin.


----------



## Jdwino92

Good grief everybody here as something stuck up their ass. 

I didn’t hide or trickle truth anything. I talk to the guys in the group too. I’ve said this. I pm one of them pretty frequently although I honestly admitted it wasn’t as often. 

I met her first but now I’m friends with the whole group including her boyfriend. And I do pm the boyfriend too and we talk, as we are friends. 

My wife wasn’t trickle truthed anything. She knows everything going on at all times. You guys aren’t in my life so it appears like you are getting trickle truthed when in reality it’s just that more details are coming out because how could I have included all relevant information in just one post at the beginning without writing a novel?


----------



## NextTimeAround

HiMaint57 said:


> I want to share what happened to me. First, I acknowledge fully that I made many mistakes in our marriage that led to our divorce that I deeply regret and want to change. But here goes:
> 
> -- 25 years ago, my then-husband befriends a woman (OSF) he meets through church involvement. I get to know her, she employs my children at her business, and she becomes a family friend. OSF has never been married.
> -- Husband interacts with OSF on church committees, fixes her business machinery, works with her on dj gigs (until 3 AM), and texts/e-mails her regularly. I have never known his passwords. I don't say anything because I trust him and don't want to be a possessive wife.
> -- Husband has motorcycle accident in 2008 -- I live at hospital, feed him, do his laundry, etc. and am glad to do so. OSF visits often and helps him investigate accident. I notice he seems much more interested in interacting with her than with me. I don't say anything because I trust him and don't want to be a possessive wife.
> -- Years go by, all types of physical affection between H and me somehow stops, we grow apart, he acts like he doesn't want me around anymore. Relationship continues with OSF and now includes accompanying her to frequent medical appointments, assisting with her alcoholism recovery, fixing her car/appliances, and visiting her family (in addition to all previous things I mentioned). I don't say anything because I trust him and don't want to be a possessive wife.
> -- Three years ago I leave the marriage. We live separately for a year and a half, he then makes the offer (based on OSF advice) that I can move back & live with him but with no expectations that we would work on the marriage, and that OSF would continue as a friend. I try for two weeks but can't do the "no expectations" thing, so I move out again. I start thinking that he and OSF are having an emotional affair (just a bit naive, right?). I trusted him and didn't want to be a possessive wife!
> -- Last September we divorced and are now going through annulment proceedings. OSF and ex are still "friends" and who knows what else. He won't admit to anything.
> 
> He is a good man who needed a more suspicious and less trusting wife.


Because you didn't say anything, your exH may have thought you didn't care.


----------



## Jdwino92

When I brought up he is the girlfriend of a friend, I brought that up because I don’t think it’s be good for the group dynamic or my friendship with her boyfriend if I suddenly start ignoring his girlfriend.


----------



## LTCNurse

Jdwino92 said:


> Why does it matter that she’s a woman?
> 
> I wouldn’t let my wife tell me to end any of my friendships without due cause. I don’t view intuition alone as just cause. I wouldn’t expect my wife to listen to my requests if I justified them only with gut feelings and intuition.


It is not a goal of marriage to be "right".


----------



## NextTimeAround

Jdwino92 said:


> When I brought up he is the girlfriend of a friend, I brought that up because I don’t think it’s be good for the group dynamic or my friendship with her boyfriend if I suddenly start ignoring his girlfriend.


This is how my exH would do it. "I just had to be nice" even while these same women were dismissive of me.


----------



## Jdwino92

My wife has seen the thread. She agrees that she sees it sort of as an emotional affair or the potential to be one, or at least that she questions this woman’s intentions based on her intuition and gut feelings. But nothing that’s going on is tanking our marriage as some suggest. She knows I would never cheat on her, she just doesn’t want me to be friends with someone she views as not a good person. 

My objection is my wife doesn’t know her well at all, won’t consider coming to these meet ups or anything. And I don’t think friendships with women are as big of a deal as seemingly everyone here does. She has a vagina. Big whoop. She’s still a person. I don’t suddently lost ability to control my actions around people with vaginas.


----------



## Jdwino92

TRy said:


> @OP: You calling this other woman (OW) a “She’s the girlfriend of a friend” was deliberately misleading, in your attempt to paint your wife as jealous and controlling. I can only imagine what we would learn if your wife got to tell us her side without your spin.


Here’s what I said 

“It’s not just some random person. 
She’s the girlfriend of a friend. They are both in a group that I’m part of and care about being part of. 
So I’m willing to compromise, and we are doing just that. But defriending someone when nothing has happened is just ridiculous. 
Oh but ****! She has a vagina! Well, that changes EVERYTHING 
That’s so sexist“

I wasn’t deliberately doing anything. My point then as it is now is that I’m not just friends with some random girl on the Internet. She’s the girlfriend of a friend, and both are part of a group that I’m in and we share a lot mutual friends in this group. 

Grasping at straws buddy.


----------



## Thor

LTCNurse said:


> It is not a goal of marriage to be "right".


He's going to be right all the way to divorce.


----------



## Jdwino92

At this point if my wife came here and posted in my defense you would all think I created a fake account with the degree to which you guys think I’m slanting and misleading everything.


----------



## Adelais

Jdwino92 said:


> Good grief everybody here as something stuck up their ass.
> 
> I didn’t hide or trickle truth anything. I talk to the guys in the group too. I’ve said this. I pm one of them pretty frequently although I honestly admitted it wasn’t as often.
> 
> I met her first but now I’m friends with the whole group including her boyfriend. And I do pm the boyfriend too and we talk, as we are friends.
> 
> My wife wasn’t trickle truthed anything. She knows everything going on at all times. You guys aren’t in my life so it appears like you are getting trickle truthed when in reality *it’s just that more details are coming out because how could I have included all relevant information in just one post at the beginning without writing a novel?*


The problem isn't that the information is coming a little at a time. It is that what comes later doesn't match what was implied at first.


----------



## Adelais

Jdwino92 said:


> At this point if my wife came here and posted in my defense you would all think I created a fake account with the degree to which you guys think I’m slanting and misleading everything.


Why don't you invite her here, and let us decide if she is a real person or a second account?


----------



## Jdwino92

Araucaria said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> At this point if my wife came here and posted in my defense you would all think I created a fake account with the degree to which you guys think I’m slanting and misleading everything.
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you invite her here, and let us decide if she is a real person or a second account?
Click to expand...

I asked her if she wanted to. She said no. She’s happy that I agreed to go to counseling and I said I was not going to pm her anymore, just talk to her on the group chat.


----------



## Adelais

Jdwino92 said:


> Ok but she’s jealous for more than just my time. And in one week if I message this woman like three or four times that’s a big deal.* Sometimes A good day for my wife and I is ruined if she’s opens my phone and sees I sent even one message to this friend.* I have other friends who I talk to a lot and see in person and hang out with.





LTCNurse said:


> SERIOUSLY??? Big.Red.Flag.
> 
> Find a mutual interest with your wife. Invest in her and family, internet groups are a dime a dozen and we really never know any of these online people IRL even if we meet with them once per month. It's definitely not worth rocking the marriage boat and yours is about to flip over.


I saw that too. Why on earth would you keep talking to someone of the opposite sex when you know that your beloved, dear wife is upset by it?



Jdwino92 said:


> *This has been 8 months and I genuinely care about this person as a friend and also like being a part of this group.* I’m completely willing to limit though my time spent talking to her, but now my wife basically wants me to take a hiatus from being part of the group at all *because to her I’ve ignored her feelings for 8 months.* I told her it isn’t that simple. I don’t think it’s consideratemor right for a spouse to tell the other to end a friendship based solely on their feelings. The extend of this friendship has been entirely appropriate, she has watched me talk to her for months and there’s no smoking gun. I’ve gone days or weeks not talking to this woman, and sometimes I talk to her a lot, which is on par with all of my friends. I have put my wife first through all of this except not thinking her initial request ,that she has now put forrth as almost a demand, that I had to just ignore and stop talking to someone outright was reasonable.


You admit that you ignored your wife's feelings for 8 months before she established a firm boundary. This has been going on for 8 long months. Your wife must be in real pain by now. Dump the OW and tell your wife you're sorry for your blindness and selfishness.

I told my husband about your thread. He believes that because the OW invited you to the group, you should quit the group. Had you been part of the group, then got too close to OW, it might have been OK to stay with the group, but just cool it with the OW.

OP. We aren't against you. We are trying to advise you so you can keep your marriage and precious family safe from predictable and foreseeable dangers.


----------



## Adelais

Jdwino92 said:


> I asked her if she wanted to. She said no. She’s happy that I agreed to go to counseling and *I said I was not going to pm her anymore, just talk to her on the group chat*.


That is a good step. Hopefully in counseling you will begin to understand the "friend of the marriage" rule.

BTW, did you ever tell the OW that your wife was upset by your talking with her?


----------



## Davidmidwest

Jdwino92 said:


> My wife and I have been married for four years and together for almost 8 years. I’ve always been into politics and current events a good deal more than my wife. Within the past two years I have increasingly become more involved, spending more time talking to people online, researching and reading what’s going on in the world, learning new ideas and concepts, and meeting new people becoming involved new groups.
> 
> In this pursuit I have made some new friends. I talk to them regularly, I’d say every day or most days. One of the friends is a girl is in the same beat up group I joined. We talk on a fairly consistent basis as well, all of our talks are pertaining to politics and religion as we have similar in a broad sense but different when it comes down to the nitty-gritty beliefs and perspectives on these subjects. I’m a very extroverted person, I have a desire/need to talk to people, to express my thoughts and try to work our problems in my Head by talking to a lot of people.
> 
> My wife has voiced that she isn’t comfortable with my friendship with this woman. I have asked her to explain and she says it’s intuition, and that she does trust me not to do anything but that something just makes her feel icky.
> 
> I want to respect and listen to my wife but I don’t see the situation the same. I think friendships with the opposite sex are fine so long as they appropriate. I don’t hang out with this woman at all, I only see her in person at the group meet ups (where she comes with her boyfriend). I’m not hiding our conversations from my wife. I don’t ignore my wife to talk to this woman. My wife and I have two young kids, she stays homeand she views her job as being a mom, which I love - and we are going to home school. I have a full time job that takes sometimes a fair amount of overtime hours. Between kids and work we don’t get tons of time but we try, we have a weekly date night and I try my best to call her and text her throughout the day, it varies obviously depending on a lot of factors. Sometimes she tries to reach me and I’m busy, sometimes I want to talk to her and she’s busy.
> 
> My wife doesn’t have the same passion for politics and philosophy that I have, she will have talks with me frequently but not ironically we agree on a lot of things as we are married. And I love to talk to her but I also value talking to a lot of people and also people who disagree with me. This other woman is someone who also likes to talk a lot about these subjects, and has a different enough perspective. And she really doesn’t dispute this, she sees our conversations and they are 98% politics and religion and philosophy. I consider her a friend, not a best friend or super close frowns but a friend all the same.
> 
> My wife and I are at odds over this friendship I have with this woman. She thinks I should trust her intuition and respect her request to stop talking to this woman or at least drastically decrease how much I talk to her. My concern is that there is something deeper motivating my wife’s response and concern, and I also am weary of walking the line between respect and having some measure of my own will. I tell her I respectfully disagree with her concerns, and while she might disagree with me saying so, I think if this woman was a man, just had different genitalia, there wouldn’t be an issue.
> 
> Also, it sounds shallow to even bring this up, but for full disclosure, I’m not attracted to this women sexually at all. I don’t want to be rude and disparage her, I’m sure some people find her attractive. I don’t. My wife agrees and doesn’t think I’m sexually attracted but thinks it’s more of an emotional affair or something akin to it. Or that it isn’t that I’m doing anything inappropriate, but that my wife has an intuition I should trust.
> 
> My wife’s mother and grandmother have failed marriages and were cheated on. My wife’s high school boyfriend cheated on her too. She also suffers from anxiety. I don’t want to dismiss my wife’s thoughts as being merely the result of all of these things but I wonder to what degree they might factor in.
> 
> She wants us to go get counseling which I’m completely fine with. I thought it might be helpful as well to post this and get some feedback from others. Is there room for friendships of the opposite sex in marriages? And in my case, what should I do?


Men and women should not have friends of the opposite sex unless they are married and your friends as couples. Things get blurred and when either start confiding in each other, SEX FOLLOWS....Guaranteed.


----------



## Jdwino92

Araucaria said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok but she’s jealous for more than just my time. And in one week if I message this woman like three or four times that’s a big deal.* Sometimes A good day for my wife and I is ruined if she’s opens my phone and sees I sent even one message to this friend.* I have other friends who I talk to a lot and see in person and hang out with.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LTCNurse said:
> 
> 
> 
> SERIOUSLY??? Big.Red.Flag.
> 
> Find a mutual interest with your wife. Invest in her and family, internet groups are a dime a dozen and we really never know any of these online people IRL even if we meet with them once per month. It's definitely not worth rocking the marriage boat and yours is about to flip over.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I saw that too. Why on earth would you keep talking to someone of the opposite sex when you know that your beloved, dear wife is upset by it?
> 
> 
> 
> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> *This has been 8 months and I genuinely care about this person as a friend and also like being a part of this group.* I’m completely willing to limit though my time spent talking to her, but now my wife basically wants me to take a hiatus from being part of the group at all *because to her I’ve ignored her feelings for 8 months.* I told her it isn’t that simple. I don’t think it’s consideratemor right for a spouse to tell the other to end a friendship based solely on their feelings. The extend of this friendship has been entirely appropriate, she has watched me talk to her for months and there’s no smoking gun. I’ve gone days or weeks not talking to this woman, and sometimes I talk to her a lot, which is on par with all of my friends. I have put my wife first through all of this except not thinking her initial request ,that she has now put forrth as almost a demand, that I had to just ignore and stop talking to someone outright was reasonable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You admit that you ignored your wife's feelings for 8 months before she established a firm boundary. This has been going on for 8 long months. Your wife must be in real pain by now. Dump the OW and tell your wife you're sorry for your blindness and selfishness.
> 
> I told my husband about your thread. He believes that because the OW invited you to the group, you should quit the group. Had you been part of the group, then got too close to OW, it would have been OK to stay with the group, but just cool it with the OW.
> 
> OP. We aren't against you. We are trying to advise you so you can keep your marriage and precious family safe from predictable and foreseeable dangers.
Click to expand...

I was not in the loop for 8 months that my wife was upset. 

She has a pattern of not liking most women I talk to at first, and then over time warning up to them. 

So the first month was typical. After that she still stated from time to time that she didn’t like this other woman, but she didn’t make any requests to do anything. That didn’t start up again until this past month. 

Even so, my wife wants to do counseling and doesn’t want me to leave the group. She just wants me to limit or end the friendship with this woman.


----------



## Jdwino92

Araucaria said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I asked her if she wanted to. She said no. She’s happy that I agreed to go to counseling and *I said I was not going to pm her anymore, just talk to her on the group chat*.
> 
> 
> 
> That is a good step. Hopefully in counseling you will begin to understand the "friend of the marriage" rule.
> 
> BTW, did you ever tell the OW that your wife was upset by your talking with her?
Click to expand...

No I didn’t mention any of this to this other woman. Didn’t seem appropriate to me to say something to her


----------



## Vinnydee

Married 46 year and have very clear boundaries. I have no female friends and my wife has no male friends. I did not always think like this. It took an ex fiancé and ex girlfriend cheating one me with their men friends to change my mind. When it comes to sex, men and women are genetically engineered to find the mate with the best genes. You cannot will attraction/love into or out of existence. It can happen at anytime and when emotions come into play, we humans tend to make bad choices. I know that I did just as my two exes did even though we had rules about it and it was only friends. 

There is a wide gap between my IQ and that of my wife. So I too sought out people who wanted to talk about more than movie or TV stars and shows. We found couples that were mixed like us so that when we went out to dinner we each had someone to talk to about our interests. We even developed a social circle of long time married couples like us with a nice mix of people that provide whatever others need that they cannot get from their spouses as far as discussions go. I also got into Ham Radio and developed friendship with a lot of intelligent guys. We talked over the air and met for breakfast every other weeks. My wife met women like her at bingo, playing cards and Mahjong. We have little in common as far as interest go except an undying live and being happy to just be with each other.

The point is that why you think you are with those women may not be the real reason as there are always people of your same gender to be found to fill your needs. I left my wife for a woman I used to have lunch with at work a few times a month. Came to my senses and my wife took me back. I see women as potential mates. I have had sex with every one of my wife's and sister's friends as well as the sisters of my friends and most neighborhood girls. My wife says it is quicker to tell her who I did not have sex with than the other way around.  I know my weakness so I avoid it. It always starts off with innocent intent but never ends well.


----------



## frusdil

Jdwino92 said:


> I think if this woman was a man, just had different genitalia, there wouldn’t be an issue.


Well duh, of course there wouldn't be - isn't it obvious why??? I'm not one to say absolutely no opposite sex friends, but OSF are different to same sex friendships, and there needs to be strong boundaries - and BOTH partners need to be on the same page.



Jdwino92 said:


> I am not trying to discount my wife or overrule her. I feel like that’s what she’s trying to do to me. I don’t think it’s healthy if either of us has the power to tell the other what to do without discourse. I think the issue runs far deeper than she’s uncomfortable with this woman, I think she doesn’t trust me or has other issues that may or may not be related to me. I could be doing something wrong somewhere else in our relationship for example. I don’t think though that it’s as simple as “anytime your partner doesn’t like something , give them what they want


If you really listened to your wife, you would likely find that she knows nothing inappropriate has happened - yet. So many affairs start out with friendships just like this one. She's trying to protect her marriage.

You really need to read "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. It will give you the insight you desperately need here.



Jdwino92 said:


> She puts our children first and doesn’t trust people watch our children outside of her mom, occasionally my mom. We have a weekly date night but *I have been telling my wife that intimacy and closeness isn’t something that can be fabricated by a once a week date night, everyday we need to be fighting for time with each other. **And I feel like I am fighting for more time with her*.


Well that's not good. You're her husband, you should be her number 1. The children shouldn't be sleeping in your bed either. I've bolded a couple of things you said above - can't you see that that is a danger signal right there?




Jdwino92 said:


> Why does it matter that she’s a woman?


Really?


----------



## Adelais

Jdwino92 said:


> No I didn’t mention any of this to this other woman. Didn’t seem appropriate to me to say something to her


Good.


----------



## TRy

Jdwino92 said:


> Here’s what I said
> 
> “It’s not just some random person.
> She’s the girlfriend of a friend.”


 But at the time that you joined the group she was not “the girlfriend of a friend” that you claimed; she was in fact the friend that invited you into the group, and he was someone that you were just getting to know. Stop pretending that they are one and the same, as you attempt to claim that you were not misleading us.


----------



## TRy

@Jdwino92: Not all dogs are pit bulls, but all pit bulls are dogs. Simarly, not all people that post what you are posting in defense of an opposite sex friendship are cheater, but all cheaters post what you are posting in defense of an opposite sex friendship.


----------



## Jdwino92

TRy said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here’s what I said
> 
> “It’s not just some random person.
> She’s the girlfriend of a friend.”
> 
> 
> 
> But at the time that you joined the group she was not “the girlfriend of a friend” that you claimed; she was in fact the friend that invited you into the group, and he was someone that you were just getting to know. Stop pretending that they are one and the same, as you attempt to claim that you were not misleading us.
Click to expand...

You can believe what you want dude. That’s just how are taking it.


----------



## Prodigal

I decided to re-read what you posted. Here's what I'm gleaning from what you have said thus far:

You are more outgoing than your wife and enjoy discussing politics/religion with other people.

You have a full-time job that requires a fair amount of overtime.

Your wife is a stay at home mom. She wants to homeschool the children. The children still sleep in your bed.

Your wife doesn't want to join your discussion group.

She is the introvert, you the extrovert.

You feel she is tilting the marriage too much towards meeting her needs and you are compromising more than you might want to.


What am I getting from this? Well, granted, I'm going to give a completely subjective opinion based on the information you have furnished. But it sounds like your wife doesn't meet your needs for intellectual stimulation. You want to discuss current issues. Her? Well, yeah, if it's just with you. In fact, it sounds like she doesn't have any friends outside the marriage, although I may be wrong in making that assumption.

Just my guess, but this group is satisfying something you need that your wife is unwilling or unable to provide. Meanwhile, your wife has an uncomfortable vibe about a specific woman in the group. I dunno .... I'm just spit balling here ... but could you have this woman and her boyfriend over for a barbeque. Or how about the entire group? I mean, would your wife freak out and be totally adverse to meeting these people if they were in your home?

It just sounds like you are relying on this group to meet a need you have that isn't getting satisfied in your marriage. 

And, off subject, but I'd tell your wife to get the kids acclimated to sleeping in their own beds. Children need their own room/space/bed. Parents need their own bedroom. Unless a child is sick and needs a parent nearby,, I don't ascribe to the kiddies being in bed with mom and dad. 

Maybe your wife is defining herself primarily as a mother and not your mate. 

JMO.


----------



## kekkek

Jdwino92 said:


> IN fact my wife has logged into my accounts and deleted
> Messages from her before lol.


For me this is too controlling. Even if my wife ordered me to cut off contact, I would expect her to leave that up to me to execute the order. I would be upset if she was filtering the information I was allowed to see.


----------



## LTCNurse

Prodigal said:


> And, off subject, but I'd tell your wife to get the kids acclimated to sleeping in their own beds. Children need their own room/space/bed. Parents need their own bedroom. Unless a child is sick and needs a parent nearby,, I don't ascribe to the kiddies being in bed with mom and dad.
> 
> JMO.


I was a stay at home Mom for 10 years and we never (I mean never) had the children in bed with us. I remember knowing parents who did though. If a child was sick or teething, I got up with them and tended to them and got them back to bed. I just didn't think the family bed was something I wanted to start.


----------



## Jdwino92

TRy said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here’s what I said
> 
> “It’s not just some random person.
> She’s the girlfriend of a friend.”
> 
> 
> 
> But at the time that you joined the group she was not “the girlfriend of a friend” that you claimed; she was in fact the friend that invited you into the group, and he was someone that you were just getting to know. Stop pretending that they are one and the same, as you attempt to claim that you were not misleading us.
Click to expand...

I think you interpreted my bringing that up as expository information for how I met her. I didn’t say that, I said she isn’t just some random person because that’s what some people were saying, I think I quoted and responded directly to someone making that claim. I said she isn’t some random person I talk to and know in private, I met her first but now I’m friends with her boyfriend and most of the people in gisngroup she invited me too. 

This woman expresses pretty often wanting my wife to come and wanting to be friends with her but my wife thinks it’s disingenuous. But my wife doesn’t have really any friends and suffers from anxiety and depression, and I think those things are clouding her judgement. 

Would it be helpful if I included segments of the conversations I have with this woman?


----------



## LTCNurse

Jdwino92 said:


> Would it be helpful if I included segments of the conversations I have with this woman?



No. You appear more and more invested in this relationship.


----------



## Robert22205

I've been married over 40 years and have experienced a lot of relationship issues directly and indirectly (through friends and co-workers).
Somehow I missed the fact that you agreed to stop PM. Good for you. 
I think that would normally be enough.

With respect to defriending the other woman, I make no comment on whether your wife's request is fair or reasonable. 

Heads up, it sounds to me like the defriending issue may have escalated to a much more important fundamental relationship choice where you have to now choose being married or being friends with the other woman. If your wife won't back down, are you willing to divorce your wife in order to maintain this one friend? 

Win or lose, in my experience, relationship issues tend to accumulate...so you need to pick your victories wisely. Even if you win this battle (and keep the friend) it will may have a long term cumulative negative impact that is out of proportion to the current value of this friend. 
So you have to ask yourself: is the friend worth it? Not just today but 10 years from now?


----------



## Jdwino92

Robert22205 said:


> I've been married over 40 years and have experienced a lot of relationship issues directly and indirectly (through friends and co-workers).
> Somehow I missed the fact that you agreed to stop PM. Good for you.
> I think that would normally be enough.
> 
> With respect to defriending the other woman, I make no comment on whether your wife's request is fair or reasonable.
> 
> Heads up, it sounds to me like the defriending issue may have escalated to a much more important fundamental relationship choice where you have to now choose being married or being friends with the other woman. If your wife won't back down, are you willing to divorce your wife in order to maintain this one friend?
> 
> Win or lose, in my experience, relationship issues tend to accumulate...so you need to pick your victories wisely. Even if you win this battle (and keep the friend) it will may have a long term cumulative negative impact that is out of proportion to the current value of this friend.
> So you have to ask yourself: is the friend worth it? Not just today but 10 years from now?


Obviously I would choose my wife if she gave me an ultimatum. 

My point all along is I think this problem with the friend is really a reflection of a deeper problem in our relationship. 

But that’s because I don’t think it’s fundamentally wrong or bad to have OS friends. I think obviously OS sex friends have different rules and I don’t think I’ve done anything inappropriate and I’m willing to make compromises with my wife.


----------



## Jdwino92

Robert22205 said:


> I've been married over 40 years and have experienced a lot of relationship issues directly and indirectly (through friends and co-workers).
> Somehow I missed the fact that you agreed to stop PM. Good for you.
> I think that would normally be enough.
> 
> With respect to defriending the other woman, I make no comment on whether your wife's request is fair or reasonable.
> 
> Heads up, it sounds to me like the defriending issue may have escalated to a much more important fundamental relationship choice where you have to now choose being married or being friends with the other woman. If your wife won't back down, are you willing to divorce your wife in order to maintain this one friend?
> 
> Win or lose, in my experience, relationship issues tend to accumulate...so you need to pick your victories wisely. Even if you win this battle (and keep the friend) it will may have a long term cumulative negative impact that is out of proportion to the current value of this friend.
> So you have to ask yourself: is the friend worth it? Not just today but 10 years from now?


That’s why I was wondering if I should include conversations I have with this woman here for people to see. I think I get why from the outside looking in, people might thing I’m having an EA. But honestly I talk to her and treat her like any casual male friend , except in that I don’t have opposite male friends that are as open for debate and conversation. There are obviously men in the group but they prefer to just have casual conversations and save political discourse for in person. I do have one other male friend not in this group who I also talk to a fair deal but we disagree on so much that it can be draining on our friendship. The OS friend and I have disagreements but are close enough axiomatically that it doesn’t escalate debate into fighting. 

I was in debate in high school and college so I really enjoy it obviously.


----------



## Aspydad

Jdwino92 said:


> Ok well you or someone or my wife is going to have to show me how talking about these subjects is conditioning me to blow my marriage up lol.


Dude, your wife (the mother of your children, your lover, your best friend) has asked you to stop contact with this women. If you do not, then you are in an emotional affair - PERIOD. There is no debate on this - if you place this new freindship above the desire of your wife, then it is what it is - CHEATING.

I tell you this - if your wife came on here and told this story about you - her husband - 99% of the people on her would tell her to 180 you if you did not meet her request. Then, if that did not work - time to get a lawyer and file - PERIOD.

Oh - and I suppose that if this women ever tried to make the move on you - you would not even be tempted right?? I mean you would not even have to think about it right??


----------



## Adelais

Jdwino92 said:


> Obviously* I would choose my wife if she gave me an ultimatum*.
> 
> My point all along is I think this problem with the friend is really a reflection of a deeper problem in our relationship.
> 
> But that’s because I don’t think it’s fundamentally wrong or bad to have OS friends. I think obviously OS sex friends have different rules and I don’t think I’ve done anything inappropriate and I’m willing to make compromises with my wife.


Why do you have to wait for an ultimatum? Being married to a person who refuses to change a behavior until an ultimatum is given wears out a person over time. It also erodes their sense of value to their spouse and trust/safety the marriage. Is that what you would like to accomplish with your wife?


----------



## Adelais

Jdwino92 said:


> That’s why I was wondering if I should include conversations I have with this woman here for people to see.


No need. We believe you when you say that you are not talking about inappropriate subjects. 

The issue is that you are putting so much effort into defending your relationship with the OW when it is hurting your wife. That alone is a red flag. Even though you have not actually spoken words that have crossed the line, you are emotionally connected to her, which is crossing the line.

That is the danger with OS friendships. Emotional bonds grow, then deepen, and from there it is a slippery slope.


----------



## Jdwino92

Araucaria said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That’s why I was wondering if I should include conversations I have with this woman here for people to see.
> 
> 
> 
> No need. We believe you when you say that you are not talking about inappropriate subjects.
> 
> The issue is that you are putting so much effort into defending your relationship with the OW when it is hurting your wife. That alone is a red flag. Even though you have not actually spoken words that have crossed the line, you are emotionally connected to her, which is crossing the line.
> 
> That is the danger with OS friendships. Emotional bonds grow, then deepen, and from there it is a slippery slope.
Click to expand...

I mean sure, we get emotionally attached to people. I’m emotionally attached to my friends, male and female. That doesn’t mean the emotional attachments are inappropriate, or that because there’s a vagina involved that I will lose all sensibility. 

Also, I think there’s something I need to clarify. 

I will, and pretty much for the time being, stop talking to this woman. What I’m getting at is that I don’t think this whole situation is solely about this woman, and I think that there is something deeper going on here because the friendship I have with this woman is completely harmless and I’m convinced of that and people who actually know me in real life arent concerned except for my wife. So I’m willing to stop talking to this woman while I am dealing with this problem with my wife, I don’t think the problem is a simple as just stop talking to this woman and that’s the end of that. I don’t think that’s unreasonable. I’m putting anything before my wife, I’m just Saying that I think that there are problems here that go deeper than just this woman


----------



## Adelais

Regarding co-sleeping with your children, here is my experience and opinion for what it is worth:

We made the mistake of letting our first baby sleep in the bed with us, and when it was time for him to move to his own bed, he wouldn't adapt. He would throw up from being so upset, and that definitely made me not want to upset him (it was a mess to clean up.) But I persisted, and eventually he got used to his own bed...in our room at 1 1/2!! His bed was moved out of the room right before he was 2, when his sibling was born.

With our next children I was not about to make the same mistake. (BTW, for the most part, I made those kind of decisions, because I was the one reading the child rearing books, and my husband trusted my judgement.) While they were nursing and not sleeping through the night, their crib was in our bedroom, so they didn't have to cry during the night when they got hungry, and so I didn't have to walk too far to get them. Once they had fallen asleep from nursing, I put them in their own crib. They learned to wake up in their crib and not be afraid of being alone, because mommy or daddy were close by.

As soon as they slept through the night their crib was moved out of our bedroom. By then they were used to waking up in their crib, so they didn't have any reaction to being in a different room. 

This method worked great for every one of our children (after the mistake we made with our firstborn.)

That improved our sex life. Who wants to be intimate with their spouse when they have a toddler in the room who might wake up any minute to watch mommy and daddy?

Our later children slept through the night sooner than our son, and my husband and I were definitely more rested as well.

Your wife has good intentions letting the children co-sleep. However it is actually not what is best for the children or for your marriage. They need to learn to get themselves back to sleep on their own when they wake up at night for no reason. They need to understand that mommy and daddy have their room, need to be alone sometimes, and that it is alright, because they too have their room where they can sleep, play, etc.

I hope your wife will see there are loving and gentle alternatives to co-sleeping. Let her read my post, so she can see a way to gradually move the children out of your bedroom, and do something better from the start with any new babies that come along.


----------



## Jdwino92

And I just don’t understand or except the narrative that you can’t have friends of the opposite sex


----------



## Adelais

Jdwino92 said:


> I mean sure, we get emotionally attached to people. I’m emotionally attached to my friends, male and female. That doesn’t mean the emotional attachments are inappropriate, or that because there’s a vagina involved that I will lose all sensibility.
> 
> Also, I think there’s something I need to clarify.
> 
> I will, and pretty much for the time being, stop talking to this woman. What I’m getting at is that I don’t think this whole situation is solely about this woman, and I think that there is something deeper going on here because the friendship I have with this woman is completely harmless and I’m convinced of that and people who actually know me in real life arent concerned except for my wife. So I’m willing to stop talking to this woman while I am dealing with this problem with my wife, I don’t think the problem is a simple as just stop talking to this woman and that’s the end of that. I don’t think that’s unreasonable. I’m putting anything before my wife, I’m just Saying that I think that there are problems here that go deeper than just this woman


It is amazing how many times you have said the word vagina. None of us have said that word or even brought it up, but you keep bringing up that part of your friend's anatomy. Could it be a Freudian slip?

You don't realize that my husband never had sex or even made out with the OW, but he became so deeply involved with her emotionally that he wanted to marry her. She was definitely trying to get him to be intimate with her, but he wanted to wait until they were married, to "keep their love and their relationship pure." (I wanted to throw up as I wrote that.)

It is not all about VAGINA as you say. It is about emotional attachment. My husband would never become emotionally attached like that to a man, only to a woman. He was very successful in staying away from her VAGINA, but he wasn't successful at guarding his heart.

You are already emotionally attached to your lady friend beyond just a casual acquaintance.

Pride comes before the fall.

Are you capable of learning from others or are you completely self taught, only learning from your mistakes?

Adultery, whether emotional or physical, destroys at most, or damages at least, everyone it touches, including the innocent children. Wouldn't you want to take every precaution to avoid that pitfall?

As long as you continue to defend your OS "friendship" I have nothing left to say to you. I have tried to warn you, sharing my own experience as well as all my reading here for many years.

Have you even bothered to get any of the books that have been recommended to you? I bet not. You know everything already.

It is frustrating and sad to see a train wreck in the making and not be able to do anything to stop it.


----------



## OnTheFly

Jdwino92 said:


> And I just don’t understand or except the narrative that you can’t have friends of the opposite sex


It's been explained numerous times.


----------



## Jdwino92

Araucaria said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I mean sure, we get emotionally attached to people. I’m emotionally attached to my friends, male and female. That doesn’t mean the emotional attachments are inappropriate, or that because there’s a vagina involved that I will lose all sensibility.
> 
> Also, I think there’s something I need to clarify.
> 
> I will, and pretty much for the time being, stop talking to this woman. What I’m getting at is that I don’t think this whole situation is solely about this woman, and I think that there is something deeper going on here because the friendship I have with this woman is completely harmless and I’m convinced of that and people who actually know me in real life arent concerned except for my wife. So I’m willing to stop talking to this woman while I am dealing with this problem with my wife, I don’t think the problem is a simple as just stop talking to this woman and that’s the end of that. I don’t think that’s unreasonable. I’m putting anything before my wife, I’m just Saying that I think that there are problems here that go deeper than just this woman
> 
> 
> 
> It is amazing how many times you have said the word vagina. None of us have said that word or even brought it up, but you keep bringing up that part of your friend's anatomy. Could it be a Freudian slip?
> 
> You don't realize that my husband never had sex or even made out with the OW, but he became so deeply involved with her emotionally that he wanted to marry her. She was definitely trying to get him to be intimate with her, but he wanted to wait until they were married, to "keep their love and their relationship pure." (I wanted to throw up as I wrote that.)
> 
> It is not all about VAGINA as you say. It is about emotional attachment. My husband would never become emotionally attached like that to a man, only to a woman. He was very successful in staying away from her VAGINA, but he wasn't successful at guarding his heart.
> 
> You are already emotionally attached to your lady friend beyond just a casual acquaintance.
> 
> Pride comes before the fall.
> 
> Are you capable of learning from others or are you completely self taught, only learning from your mistakes?
> 
> Adultery, whether emotional or physical, destroys at most, or damages at least, everyone it touches, including the innocent children. Wouldn't you want to take every precaution to avoid that pitfall?
> 
> As long as you continue to defend your OS "friendship" I have nothing left to say to you. I have tried to warn you, sharing my own experience as well as all my reading here for many years.
> 
> Have you even bothered to get any of the books that have been recommended to you? I bet not. You know everything already.
> 
> It is frustrating and sad to see a train wreck in the making and not be able to do anything to stop it.
Click to expand...

I don’t think people with vaginas are dangerous people or so different from people with a penis. Like, I’m sorry. I get there are differences between sexes and genders but not to the point of absurdity most everyone here is taking it. 

Your experience is YOURS. My marriage is fine and it will get better stronger and we will get through this together. You need to get off your high horse trying to think you know how our marriage is going to go, especially speaking for my wife who you don’t know. You’ve given some good advice in between the childish and insulting banter and for that I thank you. I do listen to others advice and wisdom. You don’t know me at all. 

Btw, insulting and yelling and repeating yourself over and over again doesn’t help to get people to listen to you. I’d be more open to reading the book suggestions if it weren’t for that. But even then, books are just people’s opinions. It’s not the ****ing Bible.


----------



## Jdwino92

I think my wife is being irrational and jealous. There’s a lot in our marriage that I’m not the happiest about. That’s honestly not shocking. I knew going in we’d hit some walls probably between years 4-6. That’s what studies suggest happens. Marriage is about commitment, to stay with the other person through everything and anything. I will never leave or betray my wife. Even if she cheated on me. Even if she left me, I would remain hopeful for reconciliation. I might very well be doing some things wrong, but I am not having an emotional affair. The only woman I’m having withdrawls for is my wife because we don’t have much intimacy anymore, what with two kids attached to her all the time and also sleeping in our bed. I think my wife feels
The lack of intimacy too and is projecting insecurities into this harmless friendship with this woman. But I need help to know how to get through to my wife, and to know what areas I need to get better in as well. I’m hoping counseling helps with all of this.


----------



## personofinterest

Interesting how as you keep defending your friendship, you keep painting your wife in a worse and worse light, telling us now that you arent happy in your marriage, yada yada

It's like the prelude to cheaters script 101

It would be funny if your wife wasn't going to end up very hurt.


----------



## TRy

Jdwino92 said:


> I said she isn’t some random person I talk to and know in private, I met her first but now I’m friends with her boyfriend and most of the people in gisngroup she invited me too.


I fully understand what you are saying, but that does not change the point that I have been trying to make about this. The other woman (OW) is not the girlfriend of a friend to you. It was and is the other way around. She was and is the primary friend that invited you to the group, making the other guy that the OW was with (that you did not know at first) the boyfriend of a friend. The fact that you have gotten to know him, does not change the fact that she was and remains the primary friend. This difference matters because it changes the narrative.



Jdwino92 said:


> I get why from the outside looking in, people might thing I’m having an EA. But honestly I talk to her and treat her like any casual male friend , except in that I don’t have opposite male friends that are as open for debate and conversation. There are obviously men in the group but they prefer to just have casual conversations and save political discourse for in person. I do have one other male friend not in this group who I also talk to a fair deal but we disagree on so much that it can be draining on our friendship. The OS friend and I have disagreements but are close enough axiomatically that it doesn’t escalate debate into fighting.


The majority of people that are in an emotional affair (AE) deny that they are in one because they honestly do not recognize that they are.

From your wife’s point of view the narrative is as follows. Her husband increasingly focuses his online chatting from group chatting to chatting with another woman. Then at the request of this OW he starts seeing her in person as she introduces him to a group of her friends. Although her husband likes these other friends, the OW remains the primary friend because he enjoys chatting with her the most. Even among the online group and her husband’s other real world friends, he has the most in common with the OW, and she remains his primary focus. Although your wife was invited to go with her husband to these get togethers, the OW would have full home field advantage, so your wife does not want to go. This is a group of the OW’s friends where the OW gets to display her debate skills that are superior to your wife’s, and where the OW has more in common with her husband than does your wife; worse yet, your wife would end up sitting there quietly as the OW outshines your wife by comparison in the eyes of her husband.

From your wife’s point of view, her husband now values his relationship with this OW so much that for 8 months he ignored her concerns about the OW until she was finally forced to stand up for herself. Even then, her husband has made it clear to her that he does not want to give up this OW as he tries to negotiate a way to keep what she believes to be his EA partner in his life. Even when he posts the situation from his point of view, and most on the site tell him that your wife has good reason to be concerned, he continues to aggressively fight for the OW. I see your wife’s point of view and find it very reasonable.


----------



## Jdwino92

personofinterest said:


> Interesting how as you keep defending your friendship, you keep painting your wife in a worse and worse light, telling us now that you arent happy in your marriage, yada yada
> 
> It's like the prelude to cheaters script 101
> 
> It would be funny if your wife wasn't going to end up very hurt.


You have pretty selective reading.


----------



## Laurentium

Jdwino92 said:


> And I just don’t understand or except the narrative that you can’t have friends of the opposite sex


Well, as per the thread title, you asked what people thought about it - many have given their opinions - and you don't accept them, which is your right. That seems like the end of the discussion. 



Jdwino92 said:


> I’m hoping counseling helps with all of this.


I hope so too.


----------



## TRy

Jdwino92 said:


> I’d be more open to reading the book suggestions if it weren’t for that. But even then, books are just people’s opinions. It’s not the ****ing Bible.


 With what you just said, the opinions of a majority of people on this site, the books recommended, and the opinion of your wife, will not get you to give up this other woman. I am guessing that if the marriage counseling does not go your way, you will ignore that opinion


----------



## Jdwino92

TRy said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I’d be more open to reading the book suggestions if it weren’t for that. But even then, books are just people’s opinions. It’s not the ****ing Bible.
> 
> 
> 
> With what you just said, the opinions of a majority of people on this site, the books recommended, and the opinion of your wife, will not get you to give up this other woman. I am guessing that if the marriage counseling does not go your way, you will ignore that opinion
Click to expand...

Opinions are only worth as much as the logic and reasoning behind them


----------



## Síocháin

Talk about triggers, I have been debating posting this for 2 days. You are the reason she is joined at hip with your kids. Not a very nice comment by the way. She has told you several times that she is uncomfortable with this friendship, yet you keep justifying and defend. So, basically you have told her "she doesn't matter". I am coming from a been there, done that and couldn't wait for the divorce perspective. So, this is based on experience. No woman wants to be 2nd or 3rd in the life of the one person she is supposed to be first. I don't buy that you are not attracted to her and most likely she is giving your ego the stroke you think you need. I also don't buy that she doesn't know that your "friendship" is causing problems. You are very intelligent and it comes across in your posts. But, I also hear arrogance and dismissal. Dismissal of your wife and the great advice you've been given. Someone else is justifying this to you. You want your kids out of your bed, you drop this friend and find a male friend you can be smart with. 

You have no idea how hurtful your behavior is to her. I can tell you from experience....it is awful. Makes you feel like you don't matter and worthless to the person who is supposed to protect you.

And please, take responsibility for your actions and quit trying to downplay the magnitude of this issue. You my friend will have consequences for your actions.


----------



## Prodigal

Jdwino92 said:


> Opinions are only worth as much as the logic and reasoning behind them


That is YOUR subjective opinion.

And you are cherry picking. I assume you placed me on the "ignore" function.

I thought I offered a viable idea, or at least a way to see if your wife would come around to joining the group.

Nothing. Zip. Nada. That's fine. If you don't feel anything I brought up or suggested is viable, I'm okay with that.

But again, you are cherry picking. And you apparently love arguing/debating.

Your wife may be an insecure, introverted woman who you feel makes unreasonable demands. Then again, that might not be the case.

I'd STILL like to know why the kids are in the bed with you and your wife. That's not a particularly healthy dynamic.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Jdwino92 said:


> I don’t think people with vaginas are dangerous people or so different from people with a penis. .


You forget that people with vaginas also come with a different set of hormones and social conditioning. I used to make the mistake that men were a lot like women and that we could all be friends. Even guys agreed that we were just friends, they would still at some point blow up because their plan to convert me into a girlfriend just didn't happen.

It took me a long time to finally articulate why I am cautious about OSFs, including when it has to do with my partner and his female friend.

Think about the fact that even before marriage or cohabitation, that when you agree to be exclusive with someone, in particular, two things are expected: 1) you stop accepting dates with the opposite sex , which then makes meeting up even with estoablished male friends rather prickly; and 2) you coordinate your free time with your partner AND account for the time when you're not together.

Friends don't make that kind of commitment. They come and go when they feel like it. Women friends are free to date and have sex with other men. Even when your female friend has a boyfriend, her having sex with a different guy isn't going to affect your friendship .... that much if at all.

So I came to the conclusion that in all categories of a relationship, no exclusive partner of mine is ever going to treat another woman unrelated to him better than he treats me. So if I ever were to get a sense that decisions that are being made on some one else's advice and not suitable to me; advice on our relationship is coming from some source (vagina) that is able to just buzz in and out of my partner's life; if budgetary issues, use of time or any other resource have become dependent on some friend and so on........, then that's a friendship that needs to be discarded. 

You shuld hear how my husband talked about how defenseless he was when he got back in touch with someone he briefly dated and this was at a time when he admitted that he knew she was having with another guy....... glad that we got that cleared up. I find it fascinating how men choose where to put their loyalties.

I guess as long as there is no messaging in which you and your vagina invested friend have discussed your marriage or you may have made comparisons between the marital vagina ( i know you're not having sex, but since you view women as those beings that carry around vaginas.....) and the just a friend vagina, then maybe you still have some room to negotiate with your wife. that is, that you will find ways to contain and cool off the friendship and treat her more like just the guys....... that's some women are looking for anyway.


----------



## AliceA

Even though my ex cheated on me with a so-called "friend", I am of the same opinion as you to a certain extent. I believe if there is no sexual attraction, then you are extremely unlikely to move this from a platonic friendship into the risk area.

If it devolves into hiding the amount you are talking to her or seeing her from your wife, even once, you know it's no longer appropriate.

As for your wife, I feel that you take your partner with their good points and their bad points. Her past experiences have shaped who she now is and aren't easily shaken. It would be good for you to show some compassion for your wife and reduce the amount you communicate with your friend. She didn't ask you to completely stop being friends I note, only to stop talking to her as much as you do. These are little things we do for the ones we love when they are struggling.


----------



## Jdwino92

breeze said:


> Even though my ex cheated on me with a so-called "friend", I am of the same opinion as you to a certain extent. I believe if there is no sexual attraction, then you are extremely unlikely to move this from a platonic friendship into the risk area.
> 
> If it devolves into hiding the amount you are talking to her or seeing her from your wife, even once, you know it's no longer appropriate.
> 
> As for your wife, I feel that you take your partner with their good points and their bad points. Her past experiences have shaped who she now is and aren't easily shaken. It would be good for you to show some compassion for your wife and reduce the amount you communicate with your friend. She didn't ask you to completely stop being friends I note, only to stop talking to her as much as you do. These are little things we do for the ones we love when they are struggling.


Completely agree. I’m willing to compromise on how and when I talk to this woman to help my wife out. I agreed to counseling because I think there’s a deeper issue, and I’m not even trying to put everything on her. Perhaps I’m doing something that has led to her being in a state that makes her see something innocent as not. 

I think people here are hysterical and dramatic. But they don’t know me and have seen a lot of cheaters say similar things so I guess that factors in. All I know if I’m loyal to my wife, and her and I are doing pretty good right now after we’ve had a few talks and agreed to counseling.


----------



## Jdwino92

Prodigal said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Opinions are only worth as much as the logic and reasoning behind them
> 
> 
> 
> That is YOUR subjective opinion.
> 
> And you are cherry picking. I assume you placed me on the "ignore" function.
> 
> I thought I offered a viable idea, or at least a way to see if your wife would come around to joining the group.
> 
> Nothing. Zip. Nada. That's fine. If you don't feel anything I brought up or suggested is viable, I'm okay with that.
> 
> But again, you are cherry picking. And you apparently love arguing/debating.
> 
> Your wife may be an insecure, introverted woman who you feel makes unreasonable demands. Then again, that might not be the case.
> 
> I'd STILL like to know why the kids are in the bed with you and your wife. That's not a particularly healthy dynamic.
Click to expand...

No I didn’t ignore you. I say your first one but I just didn’t get around to responding yet, sorry. 

I do think, from what I remember, your analysis is something I basically agree with. But let me refresh my memory


----------



## Jdwino92

Prodigal said:


> I decided to re-read what you posted. Here's what I'm gleaning from what you have said thus far:
> 
> You are more outgoing than your wife and enjoy discussing politics/religion with other people.
> 
> You have a full-time job that requires a fair amount of overtime.
> 
> Your wife is a stay at home mom. She wants to homeschool the children. The children still sleep in your bed.
> 
> Your wife doesn't want to join your discussion group.
> 
> She is the introvert, you the extrovert.
> 
> You feel she is tilting the marriage too much towards meeting her needs and you are compromising more than you might want to.
> 
> 
> What am I getting from this? Well, granted, I'm going to give a completely subjective opinion based on the information you have furnished. But it sounds like your wife doesn't meet your needs for intellectual stimulation. You want to discuss current issues. Her? Well, yeah, if it's just with you. In fact, it sounds like she doesn't have any friends outside the marriage, although I may be wrong in making that assumption.
> 
> Just my guess, but this group is satisfying something you need that your wife is unwilling or unable to provide. Meanwhile, your wife has an uncomfortable vibe about a specific woman in the group. I dunno .... I'm just spit balling here ... but could you have this woman and her boyfriend over for a barbeque. Or how about the entire group? I mean, would your wife freak out and be totally adverse to meeting these people if they were in your home?
> 
> It just sounds like you are relying on this group to meet a need you have that isn't getting satisfied in your marriage.
> 
> And, off subject, but I'd tell your wife to get the kids acclimated to sleeping in their own beds. Children need their own room/space/bed. Parents need their own bedroom. Unless a child is sick and needs a parent nearby,, I don't ascribe to the kiddies being in bed with mom and dad.
> 
> Maybe your wife is defining herself primarily as a mother and not your mate.
> 
> JMO.


Ok, so I like your idea, it echoes what another said which is my wife is probably intimidated by the idea of going to the meet up, but maybe after things calm down she’d be open to a double date, having them over or even the whole group over to our place. I don’t think she’d be up for that now, but maybe after we’ve gone through some counseling. 

I’m not trying to ignore anyone or cherry pick. Opinions are all subjective, and if anyone wants me to change my mind, just an opinion alone isn’t as persuasive as supporting your opinion, which is what you did so kudos.


----------



## Jdwino92

Also, I still don’t fully understand why my wife wants to cosleep still. I sort of get when they are really little but not past 6 months. But this is further proof that we need counseling, we don’t know how to healthily resolve disputes. We tend to the all or nothing , not compromises. And most of the time I just do what she wants. That’s as much my fault though as hers.


----------



## coquille

OP, from reading your posts, the power dynamic in your marriage looks imbalanced, and you seem to give in to your spouse in situations regarding childrearing, but you also sound condescending toward her (I inferred this from your comments above about her). Your friendship with this woman sounds like the last straw in this series of tag-of-war between the two of you. You don't want to give up on this friendship that, according to you, is completely innocent, and I am not debating this--you sound genuine, honest, and committed to your marriage.

Although the majority of posters have pointed out that your wife might have sensed something threatening to your marriage from the other woman's posts, you don't want to acknowledge this, dismissing it as projection of people who have been cheated on. You might have a point here, but it is also precisely what makes their advice very valuable. Also, these comments are unbiased in the sense that everybody is anonymous, and this can be almost always beneficial to those seeking help (it also looks like the thread is helping you realize that this situation is symptomatic of deeper problems that need to be addressed in your marriage). I don't think it's a coincidence that it is this particular friendship that you are not willing to give up on. You are getting some validation from this woman that your wife is unable or unwilling to give you, and this is exactly the reason why your wife feels threatened by this friendship. 

Yes, counseling sounds the best solution in this situation, IMHO. However, I also suggest that you check the way you address others, be they your wife or strangers, because you come across as arrogant and dismissive of others' opinions, and this might alienate or prevent them from being cooperative, including your wife. Supporting our arguments with logic is fundamental for our credibility and for the sake of persuasion, but in human relationships sometimes we cannot rationalize the way we feel about some people, or some deep-seated insecurities prevent us from doing so.


----------



## TRy

Jdwino92 said:


> Opinions are only worth as much as the logic and reasoning behind them


So with that comment, you are confirming that if the marriage consular does not agree with you about your relationship with the other woman, you will be able to ignore them by questioning their logic and reasoning, just like you are doing with your wife, most on this site, and the books recommended.

I believe that there has already been much good logic and reasoning given by many on this site, as well as given in the books recommended, explain why your wife’s concerns about your relationship with the other woman are reasonable, but that no amount of logic and reasoning that disagrees with you will get through to you, because you are too emotionally attached to this OW to willingly give her up. Your wife’s only option is an ultimatum, but with your increasely negative opinion of her, I am not sure even that will work.


----------



## Jdwino92

TRy said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Opinions are only worth as much as the logic and reasoning behind them
> 
> 
> 
> So with that comment, you are confirming that if the marriage consular does not agree with you about your relationship with the other woman, you will be able to ignore them by questioning their logic and reasoning, just like you are doing with your wife, most on this site, and the books recommended.
> 
> I believe that there has already been much good logic and reasoning given by many on this site, as well as given in the books recommended, explain why your wife’s concerns about your relationship with the other woman are reasonable, but that no amount of logic and reasoning that disagrees with you will get through to you, because you are too emotionally attached to this OW to willingly give her up. Your wife’s only option is an ultimatum, but with your increasely negative opinion of her, I am not sure even that will work.
Click to expand...

Increasingly negative opinion of my wife.... 

Lol stop trying to act like you understand and know me , a stranger who’s talking to you on the internet. 

You can love someone deeply and still think they are doing something wrong. I’m not less in love with my wife, quite the opposite. 

Like what the actual duck do you want me to do?

I’m not going to just listen to people’s opinions without any supporting arguments. To do so would be to reject logic and reasoning and to become a crazy person. 

It is very possible that with my wife and our marriage, in this specific relationship that I can’t have OS friends without upsetting her, but that wouldn’t mean that’s an objective truth for all relationships, and it also doesn’t mean that there’s not something deeper going on here. 

Anecdotal evidence isn’t evidence. People here either justify their opinions by basically using circular logic or their own personal experiences. That doesn’t fly with me. I’ll read a book, but how about suggesting it helpfully and not in he midst of telling me how I’m nuking my marriage and making claims about my character and how I care about and think of my wife? ****.


----------



## Jdwino92

coquille said:


> OP, from reading your posts, the power dynamic in your marriage looks imbalanced, and you seem to give in to your spouse in situations regarding childrearing, but you also sound condescending toward her (I inferred this from your comments above about her). Your friendship with this woman sounds like the last straw in this series of tag-of-war between the two of you. You don't want to give up on this friendship that, according to you, is completely innocent, and I am not debating this--you sound genuine, honest, and committed to your marriage.
> 
> Although the majority of posters have pointed out that your wife might have sensed something threatening to your marriage from the other woman's posts, you don't want to acknowledge this, dismissing it as projection of people who have been cheated on. You might have a point here, but these comments are unbiased in the sense that everybody is anonymous, and this can be almost always beneficial to those seeking help (it also looks like the thread is helping you realize that this situation is symptomatic of deeper problems that need to be addressed in your marriage). I don't think it's a coincidence that it is this particular friendship that you are not willing to give up on. You are getting some validation from this woman that your wife is unable or unwilling to give you, and this is exactly the reason why your wife feels threatened by this friendship.
> 
> Yes, counseling sounds the best solution in this situation, IMHO. However, I also suggest that you check the way you address others, be they your wife or strangers, because you come across as arrogant and dismissive of others' opinions, and this might alienate or prevent them from being cooperative, including your wife. Supporting our arguments with logic is fundamental for our credibility and for the sake of persuasion, but in human relationships sometimes we cannot rationalize the way we feel about some people, or some deep-seated insecurities prevent us from doing so.


I’ve been quite civil with those who are civil with me. I’m human, I tend to get a little agitated by personal attacks and hostility.


----------



## Jdwino92

I’m not emotionally attached to this other woman so much that I’m ignoring my wife. I think my wife is massively misconstruing something and what she initially wanted me to do was to basically leave this group and ignore this person when nothing had happened. I responded saying I’ll talk to her only in the group chat and let’s go get counseling. 

Clearly I’m nuking my marriage.


----------



## TRy

Jdwino92 said:


> Increasingly negative opinion of my wife....


 Are you really not aware of all of the negative comments that you are saying about your wife, with few positive attributes given? Are you also not aware that at the same time you have not posted any negative comments about the other woman (OW), while posting many positive attributes about the OW. You want facts and logic, if you review this thread the above facts and associated logic speak for themselves.



Jdwino92 said:


> Lol stop trying to act like you understand and know me , a stranger who’s talking to you on the internet.


I highly doubt that you ever said this to the OW when she was just an online chat buddy to you. Also, if you post on a site asking for opinions, you should not be upset when we give them to you. 



Jdwino92 said:


> I’m not going to just listen to people’s opinions without any supporting arguments. To do so would be to reject logic and reasoning and to become a crazy person.


We have given you many supporting arguments, to deny this is to reject logic and reasoning.

Interesting relevant fact: Studies show that for heterosexuals when you are in a new relationship with a member of the opposite sex your body can release very addictive brain drugs that impact similar parts of the brain as does cocaine. Over a period of approximately 6 years in that relationship your body releases less and less of those brain drugs until it stops producing it for that relationship. Only a new such relationship will give you access to such brain drugs again as a long term spouse no longer can. There are many reasons the body does this, but it is not relevant to the conversation to discuss this now. What is relevant is that these brain drugs are released in both emotional and physical affairs.


----------



## Prodigal

Jdwino92 said:


> Lol stop trying to act like you understand and know me , a stranger who’s talking to you on the internet.


Nobody here knows you. But you came here seeking advice and opinions. Thus, we are limited by what we read while filtering it through our own bias.

If you aren't here for "understanding" then I'm afraid I am at a loss as to why you are here. After all, we are all strangers out here in cyberspace. But this is the venue on which you have appeared to discuss the issue at hand. To expect anything more than strangers who don't actually know you is illogical, is it not?

It would behoove you to be less logical/analytical and look at this from a more emotional/intuitive angle. After all, we humans are emotive relational beings. Oftentimes, we simply cannot approach an issue from a purely analytical stance.


----------



## Wooodd

My wife and I have both always had friends, both with willies and vaginas. Sometimes she will go out with a group of friends without me with some males there, and other times I will go out with friends including females. We both talk to members of the opposite sex quite often without the other partners involvement too.

We have a fundamental trust for one another, its the cornerstone of our marriage. Yes, we have been having difficulties in our relationship until recently but this trust has always been there. We gave ourselves to one another when we married and we both know that we wouldn't stray in the slightest.

That being said, if my wife had a funny feeling about an individual for whatever reason, be it how they act around me, the way they look at me, how they speak, or even their taste in clothing, this would be enough for me to sever all ties with this person with the quickness. Be they male or female. I'm sure that my wife would do the same too. 

My wifes happiness is paramount to me, above all else. No questioning of her reasons would be necessary if she didn't like someone, however fickle her reasoning, they would be gone.

She is my world, along with the kids, and they always come first.


----------



## OnTheFly

OP, are you an Aspie?

Or, are you like this on every subject?

It's tiring.


----------



## Jdwino92

TRy said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Increasingly negative opinion of my wife....
> 
> 
> 
> Are you really not aware of all of the negative comments that you are saying about your wife, with few positive attributes given? Are you also not aware that at the same time you have not posted any negative comments about the other woman (OW), while posting many positive attributes about the OW. You want facts and logic, if you review this thread the above facts and associated logic speak for themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lol stop trying to act like you understand and know me , a stranger who’s talking to you on the internet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I highly doubt that you ever said this to the OW when she was just an online chat buddy to you. Also, if you post on a site asking for opinions, you should not be upset when we give them to you.
> 
> 
> 
> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I’m not going to just listen to people’s opinions without any supporting arguments. To do so would be to reject logic and reasoning and to become a crazy person.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We have given you many supporting arguments, to deny this is to reject logic and reasoning.
> 
> Interesting relevant fact: Studies show that for heterosexuals when you are in a new relationship with a member of the opposite sex your body can release very addictive brain drugs that impact similar parts of the brain as does cocaine. Over a period of approximately 6 years in that relationship your body releases less and less of those brain drugs until it stops producing it for that relationship. Only a new such relationship will give you access to such brain drugs again as a long term spouse no longer can. There are many reasons the body does this, but it is not relevant to the conversation to discuss this now. What is relevant is that these brain drugs are released in both emotional and physical affairs.
Click to expand...

What in the world do you think I talk to this woman about? We talk about politics. She’s doesn’t know me on any deep or personal level like my wife does. She knows superficial things about me. 

I came here for relationship advice. The idea that from everything I’ve said here you have any clear idea who I am is just ludicrous. 

I haven’t posted anything positive or negative about this woman. I only defend myself in that I’m not having an emotional affair with her. I also don’t think she’s after me. I haven’t said anything about her personally though other than we like talking about the same subjects. I’ve repeated many times that she’s not attractive, at least not to me. She’s small, skinny and pale. Her face isn’t pretty. Talking about politics with an unattractive woman isn’t going to get my ****napped. Yeah I understand how hormones work, but it’s also true that having children and being married lowers testosterone and builds resistance to the mind against the sexual hormones. Those hormones act differently and release in different amounts in different people, and it has a lot to do with how you were raised and how much you’ve experienced in terms of those hormones. Also, these potential effects are more prevalent when talking in person, watching porn or sending pictures, fantasizing, etc. Taking about taxes is fun but it doesn’t get me all
Hot and steamy haha. 

So. I have reread a lot of on here. I think when people, including you, have made good points I’ve responded. Again, anecdotal arguments aren’t good arguments. Also there’s a lot of circular arguments or things stated as brute
Facts that are just opinions that I’m just supposed to accept as fact for some reason. 

What specific things am I not accepting that you
Think there have been good arguments for

In emotional affairs you tend to increasingly glorify the other woman in you mind. I haven’t done that, I like talking to her but not all the time and not about everything. Sometimes she’s quite annoying. She’s extremely brash and temperamental, in a childish way. From what I can tell, she’s an incredibly selfish person too. There’s nothing about her I like except that she’s intelligent and likes to discuss these subjects of politics and philosophy


----------



## NextTimeAround

> In emotional affairs you tend to increasingly glorify the other woman in you mind. I haven’t done that, I like talking to her but not all the time and not about everything. Sometimes she’s quite annoying. She’s extremely brash and temperamental, in a childish way. From what I can tell, she’s an incredibly selfish person too. There’s nothing about her I like except that she’s intelligent and likes to discuss these subjects of politics and philosophy


You could also describe my (now) husband's (ex) just a friend ex. My husband described her as "mercurial."


----------



## Jdwino92

Prodigal said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lol stop trying to act like you understand and know me , a stranger who’s talking to you on the internet.
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody here knows you. But you came here seeking advice and opinions. Thus, we are limited by what we read while filtering it through our own bias.
> 
> If you aren't here for "understanding" then I'm afraid I am at a loss as to why you are here. After all, we are all strangers out here in cyberspace. But this is the venue on which you have appeared to discuss the issue at hand. To expect anything more than strangers who don't actually know you is illogical, is it not?
> 
> It would behoove you to be less logical/analytical and look at this from a more emotional/intuitive angle. After all, we humans are emotive relational beings. Oftentimes, we simply cannot approach an issue from a purely analytical stance.
Click to expand...

Yes I’m here for advice, and understandings about myself that would be reasonable to make given the amount of information I’ve provided, not massive overreaches and assumptions. 

I know myself. I know my heart and know my mind. 

People that would assume I’m less in love with my wife and viewing her negatively are wrong. I love my wife and I think we need counseling to help us sift through some of these points of contention, this woman being honestly the least significant compared to where our children sleep, making time for another, also I want to start going to the gym again and get back in shape but she’s somewhat resistant because she wants me at home. Also I think she needs to make more friends, as in any. I think she needs to find time to have to herself as well, and to take care of herself. She puts our kids before both of us to a point that I think is detrimental, but she doesn’t see it that way. She’s terrified of missing out or not being there for our children when they need us/her. 

Now most of things are complaints but they come from the parts of my wife that I absolutely love. She’s not selfish, she’s incredibly kind hearted. She has values that I also have. Also my wife isn’t dumb, she’s incredibly smart , she just isn’t as articulate as I am because I was in debate in high school through college. My wife is also ****ing hilarious. My face and lungs hurt sometimes from how much she makes me laugh. She’s playful, and endearing. She’s sincere. She’s more than I could ever ever want in a woman. She’s one in infinity as far as I’m concerned.


----------



## Jdwino92

OnTheFly said:


> OP, are you an Aspie?
> 
> Or, are you like this on every subject?
> 
> It's tiring.


Like what? Are you referencing my hostility towards some or that I don’t stop talking/arguing?

I’m ADHD, but I don’t take medication for it, if that is relevant at all.


----------



## Jdwino92

NextTimeAround said:


> In emotional affairs you tend to increasingly glorify the other woman in you mind. I haven’t done that, I like talking to her but not all the time and not about everything. Sometimes she’s quite annoying. She’s extremely brash and temperamental, in a childish way. From what I can tell, she’s an incredibly selfish person too. There’s nothing about her I like except that she’s intelligent and likes to discuss these subjects of politics and philosophy
> 
> 
> 
> You could also describe my (now) husband's (ex) just a friend ex. My husband described her as "mercurial."
Click to expand...

But what’s important here is I am not your husband. So there’s nothing your anecdotal experience has as far as bearing on me. Unless you want to extrapolate some underlying pattern that men are prone to blindness when it comes to emotional affairs. But emotional affairs come also when you disconnected and discontent with your wife. It also depends on the man. I’m intelligent enough to not be fooled into thinking there’s anything of value this woman has to offer me, or that through our conversations she could come to really know or understand me.


----------



## tech-novelist

Jdwino92 said:


> But what’s important here is I am not your husband. So there’s nothing your anecdotal experience has as far as bearing on me. *Unless you want to extrapolate some underlying pattern that men are prone to blindness when it comes to emotional affairs.* But emotional affairs come also when you disconnected and discontent with your wife. It also depends on the man. I’m intelligent enough to not be fooled into thinking there’s anything of value this woman has to offer me, or that through our conversations she could come to really know or understand me.


What everyone here is extrapolating is a pattern that has been demonstrated on this site hundreds if not thousands of times: The only way to be reasonably sure that a man and a woman can be "just friends" is if they find one another woefully unattractive; otherwise there is always a sexual tension on at least one side, if not both.

This is playing with fire, and someone often gets burnt.

Of course you are free to ignore the collective wisdom of people who have seen it all many times before. But if you do, you are likely to be back here in 6 months or a year asking how you can get your wife back.

A word to the wise is sufficient.


----------



## personofinterest

Kids, I'm sorry your mom and I are divorcing because I have a gurlfruend.

But at least I'm logical....

I'm out. I'll come back when your wife posts her heartbreak.in the infidelity forum.

Have fun being "right."


----------



## Jdwino92

tech-novelist said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But what’s important here is I am not your husband. So there’s nothing your anecdotal experience has as far as bearing on me. *Unless you want to extrapolate some underlying pattern that men are prone to blindness when it comes to emotional affairs.* But emotional affairs come also when you disconnected and discontent with your wife. It also depends on the man. I’m intelligent enough to not be fooled into thinking there’s anything of value this woman has to offer me, or that through our conversations she could come to really know or understand me.
> 
> 
> 
> What everyone here is extrapolating is a pattern that has been demonstrated on this site hundreds if not thousands of times: The only way to be reasonably sure that a man and a woman can be "just friends" is if they find one another woefully unattractive; otherwise there is always a sexual tension on at least one side, if not both.
> 
> This is playing with fire, and someone often gets burnt.
> 
> Of course you are free to ignore the collective wisdom of people who have seen it all many times before. But if you do, you are likely to be back here in 6 months or a year asking how you can get your wife back.
> 
> A word to the wise is sufficient.
Click to expand...




personofinterest said:


> Kids, I'm sorry your mom and I are divorcing because I have a gurlfruend.
> 
> But at least I'm logical....
> 
> I'm out. I'll come back when your wife posts her heartbreak.in the infidelity forum.
> 
> Have fun being "right."


First, you said unless they are woefully unattractive to each other men and women can’t be friends. Even if I accepted that as true, This woman is unattractive to me, I think I’ve made that clear 

And second, my wife and I will be together in 6 months and I’ll give you an update.


----------



## Jdwino92

Síocháin said:


> Talk about triggers, I have been debating posting this for 2 days. You are the reason she is joined at hip with your kids. Not a very nice comment by the way. She has told you several times that she is uncomfortable with this friendship, yet you keep justifying and defend. So, basically you have told her "she doesn't matter". I am coming from a been there, done that and couldn't wait for the divorce perspective. So, this is based on experience. No woman wants to be 2nd or 3rd in the life of the one person she is supposed to be first. I don't buy that you are not attracted to her and most likely she is giving your ego the stroke you think you need. I also don't buy that she doesn't know that your "friendship" is causing problems. You are very intelligent and it comes across in your posts. But, I also hear arrogance and dismissal. Dismissal of your wife and the great advice you've been given. Someone else is justifying this to you. You want your kids out of your bed, you drop this friend and find a male friend you can be smart with.
> 
> You have no idea how hurtful your behavior is to her. I can tell you from experience....it is awful. Makes you feel like you don't matter and worthless to the person who is supposed to protect you.
> 
> And please, take responsibility for your actions and quit trying to downplay the magnitude of this issue. You my friend will have consequences for your actions.


She’s has the children in our room from day 1. It’s always been this way, it has nothing to do with me. Our oldest is 3 and I’ve only been talking to this woman and group of people for 8 months. My wife’s reason for this is she wants to have a closeness with our children, and she also does it for the ease of it vs having children crying as you transition them out of sleeping in your room.


----------



## Jdwino92

This entire thread is essentially the frustration I have with my wife when we disagree. 

She goes by intuition and gut feelings for making decisions. 

I go by logic and reasoning. 

I’m not trying to be right out of some power lust or pride. I think everyone here is assuming that because my wife is uncomfortable, the odds are that there is something inappropriate about this friendship. But like I’ve said, I’m altering how and when I talk to this friend, limiting the frequency and no longer pming her. And my wife and I are going to go to counseling. I’m failing to see how I’m being unreasonable, my wife is happy with the steps I’m taking.


----------



## personofinterest

So you believe you are smarter than and superior to your wife. You believe your logic is always more accurate than and superior to intuition and emotion. You value logic and rational discourse over emotion.

Your wife is emotional.

The OW is logical and rational like you.


----------



## Jdwino92

personofinterest said:


> So you believe you are smarter than and superior to your wife. You believe your logic is always more accurate than and superior to intuition and emotion. You value logic and rational discourse over emotion.
> 
> Your wife is emotional.
> 
> The OW is logical and rational like you.


I don’t think I’m superior to my wife. 

I think emotion and intuition has to coincide with logic and reason. My wife is plenty smart, but she isn’t as articulate or trained in examining and explaining the world logically and rationally. 

I don’t think though that my logic and rational approach should automatically override her, but neither can her feelings just override my perspective. We need to talk about this and seek the truth together in all things we disagree or talk about. My wife has plenty of times pointed out accurately when my emotions get in the way of me thinking clearly, and I think that’s what I’m trying to do here.


----------



## NextTimeAround

I find it ILLOGICAL that a married person can put the needs of a relative stranger above the needs of one's spouse.
Your wife had your kids, she takes care of them she takes care of the house hold....... in a few years, you'll be expecting your wife to go to your mother's place to wipe her ass.

That does detract from the value of marriage.

Do you think that Ms. Tax Codes and Post Modernism is going to do those things for you?


----------



## personofinterest

"My wife is plenty smart, but she isn’t as articulate or trained in examining and explaining the world logically and rationally...as the OW."

Would you say the above statement is consistent with your HONEST assessment?


----------



## Jdwino92

NextTimeAround said:


> I find it ILLOGICAL that a married person can put the needs of a relative stranger above the needs of one's spouse.
> Your wife had your kids, she takes care of them she takes care of the house hold....... in a few years, you'll be expecting your wife to go to your mother's place to wipe her ass.
> 
> That does detract from the value of marriage.
> 
> Do you think that Ms. Tax Codes and Post Modernism is going to do those things for you?


I’m not putting the needs of this woman above my wife. Ending this friendship wouldn’t be a big deal except I think it’d ignore a deeper problem


----------



## Jdwino92

personofinterest said:


> "My wife is plenty smart, but she isn’t as articulate or trained in examining and explaining the world logically and rationally...as the OW."
> 
> Would you say the above statement is consistent with your HONEST assessment?


I was comparing my wife to me, not the other woman. 

I’m not sure what this has to do with anything. I didn’t choose my wife because she was the most intellectual and smartest woman I had ever met. Now shes not dumb. She’s really smart but in different subjects. I’m really fluent in linguistics and mathematics, she’s smart in spatial reasoning, she has a good memory, and she hasamazing organizational skills and loves ancient civilization history so she knows a lot of that too.


----------



## OnTheFly

tech-novelist said:


> But if you do, you are likely to be back here in 6 months or a year...


What, and admit he was wrong??


----------



## RoseAglow

OP, you may not be in an emotional affair right now (although you are dismissing your wife's concern which doesn't align with caring behavior for her.)

What the TAM collective sees is that you do not recognize a marital boundary. It is crisp and clear logic: people cannot fall into affairs, emotional or otherwise, if they strictly limit their exposure to opposite sex friendships. 

If you do some reading about affairs, you find that many affairs are accidental. Two people spend time together and each unknowingly start to meet the other's emotional needs. Women often need intimate conversation, so often for them the first step is talking with another man frequently; men often need admiration and recreational companionship, so for them the first step is getting positive feedback and doing things, sharing interests together. 

I am not making this up; if it seems like it's designed to describe you, it's because you are describing a textbook start to an affair. I am using the language from His Needs, Her Needs (marital boundaries, emotional needs, the types of intimate emotional needs that kick off affairs.) Go check it out, it is a great book!

A person falls in love when another person meets their top intimate emotional needs. This is why people are telling you to beware. Consider it like a "love bank"; when someone makes enough "deposits" it is game over. Sex is also a major emotional need, but in most non-predatory affairs, the non-sexual emotional needs are met first, eventually creating attraction, which leads to sex.

Marital boundaries are put up to avoid situations that allow intimate emotional needs. Your wife should only allow you to meet her top emotional needs and you should only allow your wife to meet yours. The danger here is that you are allowing another woman to *best* meet your EN of recreational companionship and very possibly admiration. 

Your wife is instinctively asking you to shut that down. You say that she has superior spatial perspective, so trust her that you are too close to this woman.

There is a whole wide internet out there; there has never in the history of mankind been more open access to more groups, more conversations, more options. Put this group aside and go find a different place. You can be just as happy elsewhere.


----------



## Jdwino92

RoseAglow said:


> OP, you may not be in an emotional affair right now (although you are dismissing your wife's concern which doesn't align with caring behavior for her.)
> 
> What the TAM collective sees is that you do not recognize a marital boundary. It is crisp and clear logic: people cannot fall into affairs, emotional or otherwise, if they strictly limit their exposure to opposite sex friendships.
> 
> If you do some reading about affairs, you find that many affairs are accidental. Two people spend time together and each unknowingly start to meet the other's emotional needs. Women often need intimate conversation, so often for them the first step is talking with another man frequently; men often need admiration and recreational companionship, so for them the first step is getting positive feedback and doing things, sharing interests together.
> 
> I am not making this up; if it seems like it's designed to describe you, it's because you are describing a textbook start to an affair. I am using the language from His Needs, Her Needs (marital boundaries, emotional needs, the types of intimate emotional needs that kick off affairs.) Go check it out, it is a great book!
> 
> A person falls in love when another person meets their top intimate emotional needs. This is why people are telling you to beware. Consider it like a "love bank"; when someone makes enough "deposits" it is game over. Sex is also a major emotional need, but in most non-predatory affairs, the non-sexual emotional needs are met first, eventually creating attraction, which leads to sex.
> 
> Marital boundaries are put up to avoid situations that allow intimate emotional needs. Your wife should only allow you to meet her top emotional needs and you should only allow your wife to meet yours. The danger here is that you are allowing another woman to *best* meet your EN of recreational companionship and very possibly admiration.
> 
> Your wife is instinctively asking you to shut that down. You say that she has superior spatial perspective, so trust her that you are too close to this woman.
> 
> There is a whole wide internet out there; there has never in the history of mankind been more open access to more groups, more conversations, more options. Put this group aside and go find a different place. You can be just as happy elsewhere.


Ok, that was actually a pretty good explanation. 

So what you are saying is that the only 100% foolproof way to prevent emotional and then physical upstairs is to not have friendships with the opposite sex. Sort of like, as a comparison, abstinence is the only one hundred percent full proof way to not get pregnant. 

I agree emotional affairs can happen, and that’s why I’ve always been careful with friendships of the opposite sex to not indulge conversations that are of a personal sort. 

I will read this book to gain more insight on the perspective most everyone here seems to have. I still think it’s a little defeatist, like it seems to be saying men and women have little self control. I practice discipline and self control, and my wife even recognizes that she trusts that even an accidental emotional affair on my partwould never lead to a physical affair because she recognizes my self control. But I do hear the argument that perhaps it’s more logical/safe to simply not have these friendships to be absolutely sure you don’t fall down a slippery slope. Perhaps that is my wife’s subconscious fear and she’s having a hard time articulating that. I’ll talk to her about it.


----------



## TRy

Post 214


Jdwino92 said:


> This entire thread is essentially the frustration I have with my wife when we disagree.
> 
> She goes by intuition and gut feelings for making decisions.
> 
> I go by logic and reasoning.


 Based on your posts, if I were to discribe you with a single word, that word would be “argumentative”. Being argumentative leads you away from logic and reasoning.

Although it may be logical and reasonable to ignore a single anecdotal story, it is not logical and reasonable to ignore many anecdotal stories that line up in making a similar point. Do you know what they call a sampling of anecdotal stories? They call it a study. Also, do you know what a gut feeling is? It is your subconscious mind putting together a series of facts in coming to a logical conclusion that you are not skilled enough to articulate. In reading many threads on this site, gut feelings have proven far more often to be right than wrong.


----------



## RoseAglow

@Jdwino92, yes, you pretty much have it. The thing that makes me a little twitchy about your situation is that your female political friend is far superior than your wife at something that you love doing (political discussion.)

In His Needs, Her Needs, the authors encourage spouses to build compatibility. The cornerstone to this is ensuring via marital boundaries that spouses enjoy being with each other more than anyone else in the world. Each spouse still has their own friends and interests, but it's like having friends and then a Best Friend. You should enjoy time spent with your wife more than you enjoy time spent with anyone else

I find it interesting that your wife doesn't worry about other women, even your exes, but she does have her targets on this one woman. I think she rightly gets that this woman is meeting one of your emotional needs quite well, and it is a need that your wife herself can't meet as well. You may get to the point where you would enjoy spending time having political discussions with this lady more than you would enjoy spending time with your wife. That is the danger spot. 

Ideally, you and your wife will make decisions together in your life to build compatibility. It does sometimes mean that we give up something we really enjoy doing, but happily there are many, many things in life to choose that we can also enjoy doing. 

Here's a tongue in cheek example: you can choose to engage in the political forum with the woman, which will cause your wife anxiety and will stress your marriage, or you can engage here with us on TAM (including the political sub-forum) which will not cause your wife anxiety. 

I'm glad you will check out the book. It is one of the most frequently-recommended books on TAM. It's helped me a lot!


----------



## TRy

RoseAglow said:


> OP, you may not be in an emotional affair right now (although you are dismissing your wife's concern which doesn't align with caring behavior for her.)
> 
> What the TAM collective sees is that you do not recognize a marital boundary. It is crisp and clear logic: people cannot fall into affairs, emotional or otherwise, if they strictly limit their exposure to opposite sex friendships.
> 
> If you do some reading about affairs, you find that many affairs are accidental. Two people spend time together and each unknowingly start to meet the other's emotional needs. Women often need intimate conversation, so often for them the first step is talking with another man frequently; men often need admiration and recreational companionship, so for them the first step is getting positive feedback and doing things, sharing interests together.
> 
> I am not making this up; if it seems like it's designed to describe you, it's because you are describing a textbook start to an affair. I am using the language from His Needs, Her Needs (marital boundaries, emotional needs, the types of intimate emotional needs that kick off affairs.) Go check it out, it is a great book!
> 
> A person falls in love when another person meets their top intimate emotional needs. This is why people are telling you to beware. Consider it like a "love bank"; when someone makes enough "deposits" it is game over. Sex is also a major emotional need, but in most non-predatory affairs, the non-sexual emotional needs are met first, eventually creating attraction, which leads to sex.
> 
> Marital boundaries are put up to avoid situations that allow intimate emotional needs. Your wife should only allow you to meet her top emotional needs and you should only allow your wife to meet yours. The danger here is that you are allowing another woman to *best* meet your EN of recreational companionship and very possibly admiration.
> 
> Your wife is instinctively asking you to shut that down. You say that she has superior spatial perspective, so trust her that you are too close to this woman.
> 
> There is a whole wide internet out there; there has never in the history of mankind been more open access to more groups, more conversations, more options. Put this group aside and go find a different place. You can be just as happy elsewhere.


:iagree:
Great post. Very well written. On advise of this site I read “His Needs, Her Needs” and found it very helpful.


----------



## Jdwino92

TRy said:


> Post 214
> 
> 
> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This entire thread is essentially the frustration I have with my wife when we disagree.
> 
> She goes by intuition and gut feelings for making decisions.
> 
> I go by logic and reasoning.
> 
> 
> 
> Based on your posts, if I were to discribe you with a single word, that word would be “argumentative”. Being argumentative leads you away from logic and reasoning.
> 
> Although it may be logical and reasonable to ignore a single anecdotal story, it is not logical and reasonable to ignore many anecdotal stories that line up in making a similar point. Do you know what they call a sampling of anecdotal stories? They call it a study. Also, do you know what a gut feeling is? It is your subconscious mind putting together a series of facts in coming to a logical conclusion that you are not skilled enough to articulate. In reading many threads on this site, gut feelings have proven far more often to be right than wrong.
Click to expand...

I think to call the collection of people here akin to a study is an overreach. 

Especially because this website is going to attract those with marital problems so it would be a tainted study, with no controls and not a random and mixed pool of people. 

I do understand the argument for what gut feelings are, but I’m sort of an objectivist, if you know what that is. I tend to wait for the proof and not put too much stock into the conjecture. That’s sort of where my wife and I are currently finding some middle ground. I will take her gut feeling and her feelings of worry into consideration and stop talking to this woman privately. She doesn’t want me to just flat out leave the group, she just wants my continued respect and caution towards this woman, based on her gut feeling. That’s reasonable. I just thought at the beginning when she wanted me to leave the group and just block this woman, it felt a little over the top. I didn’t want to do so and either come up with a lame excuse, or to tell the truth and have people think badly of my wife because to me it would come off as paranoia.


----------



## NextTimeAround

TRy said:


> Post 214
> Based on your posts, if I were to discribe you with a single word, that word would be “argumentative”. Being argumentative leads you away from logic and reasoning.
> 
> Although it may be logical and reasonable to ignore a single anecdotal story, it is not logical and reasonable to ignore many anecdotal stories that line up in making a similar point. *Do you know what they call a sampling of anecdotal stories? They call it a study. *Also, do you know what a gut feeling is? It is your subconscious mind putting together a series of facts in coming to a logical conclusion that you are not skilled enough to articulate. In reading many threads on this site, gut feelings have proven far more often to be right than wrong.


or at least, results from a focus group.

corporate marketing departments depend on this information.


----------



## SpinyNorman

NextTimeAround said:


> I used to think OSFs were just fine until I got burned too many times by women acted as if and sometimes verbalized "my friendship with your husband has nothing to do with you."
> 
> After ac couple times with that, you start developing early warning signals and boundaries. so what if it turns out that that she wasn't like that. of course, because if you have good boundaries in place it won't come to that. They should still observe the unwritten social rules.


I was never aware of any rules saying I couldn't have OSFs and would never have agreed to them if I had been. If TS's wife had such a rule in mind she should have made it clear before the wedding.

If you had some other rule in mind, please clarify. This is the problem w/ unwritten rules.


----------



## ConanHub

Jdwino92 said:


> So here’s some questions for all of you
> 
> I am not trying to discount my wife or overrule her. I feel like that’s what she’s trying to do to me. I don’t think it’s healthy if either of us has the power to tell the other what to do without discourse. I think the issue runs far deeper than she’s uncomfortable with this woman, I think she doesn’t trust me or has other issues that may or may not be related to me. I could be doing something wrong somewhere else in our relationship for example. I don’t think though that it’s as simple as “anytime your partner doesn’t like something , give them what they want


I see what you are saying here. Gotta tread carefully here. You are doing nothing wrong and people can't automatically submit to their spouses every request because it might not be healthy, however, you do need to take her concern seriously and I believe you are by agreeing to counseling.

Mrs. Conan had a friend at the gym. He was by all accounts a good guy and the situation seemed above board. I felt a little insecure about it and jealous. I let her know how I was feeling and she backed off that friendship a bit to assure me and strengthen us. I really appreciate her for doing that and I have become more confident with her male friends since.

Your wife sounds like she is your top priority. She just needs to feel like she is as well.


----------



## SpinyNorman

Davidmidwest said:


> Men and women should not have friends of the opposite sex unless they are married and your friends as couples. Things get blurred and when either start confiding in each other, SEX FOLLOWS....Guaranteed.


A guarantee? Cool, where do I collect?


----------



## SpinyNorman

Robert22205 said:


> Win or lose, in my experience, relationship issues tend to accumulate...so you need to pick your victories wisely. Even if you win this battle (and keep the friend) it will may have a long term cumulative negative impact that is out of proportion to the current value of this friend.
> So you have to ask yourself: is the friend worth it? Not just today but 10 years from now?


I think unreasonable capitulations tend to accumulate. You let me walk over you? I guess you like it, I sure do!

Interestingly, stand your ground is a popular refrain on TAM when the subject is something else.


----------



## SpinyNorman

Jdwino92 said:


> This entire thread is essentially the frustration I have with my wife when we disagree.
> 
> She goes by intuition and gut feelings for making decisions.
> 
> I go by logic and reasoning.
> 
> I’m not trying to be right out of some power lust or pride. I think everyone here is assuming that because my wife is uncomfortable, the odds are that there is something inappropriate about this friendship. But like I’ve said, I’m altering how and when I talk to this friend, limiting the frequency and no longer pming her. And my wife and I are going to go to counseling. I’m failing to see how I’m being unreasonable, my wife is happy with the steps I’m taking.


So you know this woman, and TAM has a second-hand account of someone's non-objective opinions about her, and TAM is astounded that you won't defer to their more knowledgeable position. Their comes a point where there isn't much point arguing w/ some people.


----------



## Jdwino92

SpinyNorman said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This entire thread is essentially the frustration I have with my wife when we disagree.
> 
> She goes by intuition and gut feelings for making decisions.
> 
> I go by logic and reasoning.
> 
> I’m not trying to be right out of some power lust or pride. I think everyone here is assuming that because my wife is uncomfortable, the odds are that there is something inappropriate about this friendship. But like I’ve said, I’m altering how and when I talk to this friend, limiting the frequency and no longer pming her. And my wife and I are going to go to counseling. I’m failing to see how I’m being unreasonable, my wife is happy with the steps I’m taking.
> 
> 
> 
> So you know this woman, and TAM has a second-hand account of someone's non-objective opinions about her, and TAM is astounded that you won't defer to their more knowledgeable position. Their comes a point where there isn't much point arguing w/ some people.
Click to expand...

Yeah lol. The one thing they are right about is that I do like to argue though, and also I was just so astonished that people so easily just jumped to the conclusion I was basically abusing, controlling and terrible to my wife and I was going to jump into bed with this other woman and tank my marriage. But I am new here and didn’t know what time expect. Looks like this is a place where tons of people who have been cheated on and lied to agrigate, so that explains it to me. At the same time, I got some helpful advice from people on both sides so I think I’ll take the good with the bad going forward, also knowing what to expect.


----------



## TRy

Jdwino92 said:


> I think to call the collection of people here akin to a study is an overreach.
> 
> Especially because this website is going to attract those with marital problems so it would be a tainted study, with no controls and not a random and mixed pool of people.


If you posted in the infidelity section of this site I would agree with you, but you posted in the General Relationship Discussion section of this site. For the record, affairs have not been an issue in my marriage. After many years of being married (longer than you have been alive), I came to this site solely to see what I could learn about making my marriage better. The books recommended on this site proved useful, and the collective logic beneficial. My marriage is better in part because of this site. 

What surprised me most was just how right this section was when they referred people from this section to the Infidelity section. I learned here that we as humans are very predictable as we follow our patterns, and that it is almost like we are reading from a script. I also learned that when people in this section talk about boundaries, they speak from experience, which logic tells me to take seriously and not to dismiss out of hand.


----------



## TRy

Jdwino92 said:


> I do understand the argument for what gut feelings are, but I’m sort of an objectivist, if you know what that is. I tend to wait for the proof and not put too much stock into the conjecture.


The faulty part of your logic is that in analyzing a relationship there is usually very little “proof” of anything.


----------



## Jdwino92

So here’s a question 

I’m going to cut back and then stop private messaging this woman and just talk to her in the group chat

My wife thinks I should specifically tell this woman that. I think that doing that would be weird and potentially send mixed/the wrong message. Thoughts?


----------



## Jdwino92

TRy said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think to call the collection of people here akin to a study is an overreach.
> 
> Especially because this website is going to attract those with marital problems so it would be a tainted study, with no controls and not a random and mixed pool of people.
> 
> 
> 
> If you posted in the infidelity section of this site I would agree with you, but you posted in the General Relationship Discussion section of this site. For the record, affairs have not been an issue in my marriage. After many years of being married (longer than you have been alive), I came to this site solely to see what I could learn about making my marriage better. The books recommended on this site proved useful, and the collective logic beneficial. My marriage is better in part because of this site.
> 
> What surprised me most was just how right this section was when they referred people from this section to the Infidelity section. I learned here that we as humans are very predictable as we follow our patterns, and that it is almost like we are reading from a script. I also learned that when people in this section talk about boundaries, they speak from experience, which logic tells me to take seriously and not to dismiss out of hand.
Click to expand...




TRy said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do understand the argument for what gut feelings are, but I’m sort of an objectivist, if you know what that is. I tend to wait for the proof and not put too much stock into the conjecture.
> 
> 
> 
> The faulty part of your logic is that in analyzing a relationship there is usually very little “proof” of anything.
Click to expand...

Perhaps, and I’m starting to understand the concerns by some of the people here. I think I am confident in that I am not doing anything with bad intent, but I think the fact that I’m doing something that’s enjoyable to me with another woman, and my wife isn’t particularly interested/as good at it, it very much now makes sense to me why it would look bad to my wife and cause some insecurities. 

I showed her this section of the thread and she instantly connected and agreed with it. I’m her words, politics and philosophy is pretty much my greatest passion, so while they might seem like innocent subjects of conversation, my enjoyment of these subjects with the other women is what is worrisome to her.


----------



## SpinyNorman

TRy said:


> Post 214
> Based on your posts, if I were to discribe you with a single word, that word would be “argumentative”. Being argumentative leads you away from logic and reasoning.


"argumentative" can mean different things, one of which is being dismissive of someone who doesn't agree w/ you.



> Although it may be logical and reasonable to ignore a single anecdotal story, it is not logical and reasonable to ignore many anecdotal stories that line up in making a similar point.


The problem w/ anecdotal stories is that we tend to hear ones that end a certain way, so you extrapolate at your peril. We never see headlines that say "Airliner Completes Flight Without Any Problems", but we see enough of the opposite that many people believe it is the most dangerous form of travel. To drive the point home some more, we don't see many threads here where people report their spouse's fidelity.


> Do you know what they call a sampling of anecdotal stories? They call it a study.


You can study a sample of anecdotes, but if you collect anecdotes from a specific population and represent it as coming from the general, the world's statisticians will hand your balls to you. Statistics is a grown-up science and defended fiercely, ask Shere Hite. The self-help book world OTOH has factual standards akin to Professional Wrestling, and seems to be considered infallible on this forum.


> Also, do you know what a gut feeling is? It is your subconscious mind putting together a series of facts in coming to a *logical* conclusion that you are not skilled enough to articulate.


Wait, what? Are you saying a gut feeling cannot come to an illogical conclusion? 


> In reading many threads on this site, gut feelings have proven far more often to be right than wrong.


In most of the threads I've read, we never really knew whose gut feelings were right or wrong.


----------



## TheBohannons

Jdwino92 said:


> This entire thread is essentially the frustration But like I’ve said, I’m altering how and when I talk to this friend, limiting the frequency and no longer pming her. .


I_’m going to cut back and then stop private messaging this woman and just talk to her in the group chat_

I thought you said you were going to stop pming her?
Now you are cutting back and THEN you will stop pming her?

Which is It?


----------



## SpinyNorman

Jdwino92 said:


> So here’s a question
> 
> I’m going to cut back and then stop private messaging this woman and just talk to her in the group chat
> 
> My wife thinks I should specifically tell this woman that. I think that doing that would be weird and potentially send mixed/the wrong message. Thoughts?


She won't like being accused of angling to break up your marriage and will avoid you.


----------



## SpinyNorman

Jdwino92 said:


> Perhaps, and I’m starting to understand the concerns by some of the people here. I think I am confident in that I am not doing anything with bad intent, but I think the fact that *I’m doing something that’s enjoyable to me with another woman*, and my wife isn’t particularly interested/as good at it, it very much now makes sense to me why it would look bad to my wife and cause some insecurities.
> 
> I showed her this section of the thread and she instantly connected and agreed with it. I’m her words, politics and philosophy is pretty much my greatest passion, so while they might seem like innocent subjects of conversation, my enjoyment of these subjects with the other women is what is worrisome to her.


So this is the definition of infidelity? Wow.


----------



## Jdwino92

I definitely agree with what SpinyNorman is saying in relation to what I was saying - I can’t use anecdotal stories here as evidence. Not as an objective study either. The best an anecdote can really hope to be is a great introduction to a thesis or proof that would than make its case using actual citations of facts, logic, and real statistics and studies, or experiments.


----------



## Jdwino92

TheBohannons said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This entire thread is essentially the frustration But like I’ve said, I’m altering how and when I talk to this friend, limiting the frequency and no longer pming her. .
> 
> 
> 
> I thought you said you were going to stop pming her?
> Now you are cutting back and THEN you will stop pming her?
> 
> Which is It? Or can you not control yourself.
Click to expand...

Well my thought was cold turkey would be weird and invoke questioning. Unless my intention is to announce to her what I’m doing, I thought a phase back leading to a cut off worked better. But I did ask the question of how I should handle this, say something and cut off cold turkey or Don’t say anything and just gradually shift it. I think saying something to her wouldn’t be wise.


----------



## Jdwino92

SpinyNorman said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps, and I’m starting to understand the concerns by some of the people here. I think I am confident in that I am not doing anything with bad intent, but I think the fact that *I’m doing something that’s enjoyable to me with another woman*, and my wife isn’t particularly interested/as good at it, it very much now makes sense to me why it would look bad to my wife and cause some insecurities.
> 
> I showed her this section of the thread and she instantly connected and agreed with it. I’m her words, politics and philosophy is pretty much my greatest passion, so while they might seem like innocent subjects of conversation, my enjoyment of these subjects with the other women is what is worrisome to her.
> 
> 
> 
> So this is the definition of infidelity? Wow.
Click to expand...

If someone says that’s infidelity, I would agree that it’s lidicrous to say that. But I think what I’m saying is perhaps this is what is making her uncomfortable. 

Would you agree? If not why? And if so, how would you handle it?

I’m still open to suggestions and advice from either camp.


----------



## SpinyNorman

Jdwino92 said:


> Yeah lol. The one thing they are right about is that I do like to argue though, and also I was just so astonished that people so easily just jumped to the conclusion I was basically abusing, controlling and terrible to my wife and I was going to jump into bed with this other woman and tank my marriage. But I am new here and didn’t know what time expect. Looks like this is a place where tons of people who have been cheated on and lied to agrigate, so that explains it to me. At the same time, I got some helpful advice from people on both sides so I think I’ll take the good with the bad going forward, also knowing what to expect.


It's kind of like going to the Emergency Room and asking if bicycling is safe, they tend to receive one kind of evidence and are understandably emotionally affected by the worst of it.

The internet has made it very easy to communicate, but b/c it is shaped by people all sorts of biases pop up. In theory a chat room is perfectly safe, but they tend to achieve one bias or another and stick to it. As an example, you can find chat rooms saying Israel is a tyranny and others saying it is kind and good, but very few chat rooms w/ both view points being expressed. Remember the qualifications required to post here when evaluating advice.

It sounds like your wife has some problems relating to these kinds of issues and you are wise and caring to help her work on it as opposed to just telling her she's wrong. Being married doesn't mean you can't disagree, you just have to be loving about it.


----------



## SpinyNorman

Jdwino92 said:


> If someone says that’s infidelity, I would agree that it’s lidicrous to say that. But I think what I’m saying is perhaps this is what is making her uncomfortable.
> 
> Would you agree? If not why? And if so, how would you handle it?
> 
> I’m still open to suggestions and advice from either camp.


That may be what's making her uncomfortable, why don't you ask her? If you're seeing a counsellor hopefully he/she is asking that.

I am horrified by the idea that enjoying a walk or a story w/ another woman is threatening to my marriage. The things I agreed to stop enjoying w/ other women did not include those.


----------



## Jdwino92

SpinyNorman said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah lol. The one thing they are right about is that I do like to argue though, and also I was just so astonished that people so easily just jumped to the conclusion I was basically abusing, controlling and terrible to my wife and I was going to jump into bed with this other woman and tank my marriage. But I am new here and didn’t know what time expect. Looks like this is a place where tons of people who have been cheated on and lied to agrigate, so that explains it to me. At the same time, I got some helpful advice from people on both sides so I think I’ll take the good with the bad going forward, also knowing what to expect.
> 
> 
> 
> It's kind of like going to the Emergency Room and asking if bicycling is safe, they tend to receive one kind of evidence and are understandably emotionally affected by the worst of it.
> 
> The internet has made it very easy to communicate, but b/c it is shaped by people all sorts of biases pop up. In theory a chat room is perfectly safe, but they tend to achieve one bias or another and stick to it. As an example, you can find chat rooms saying Israel is a tyranny and others saying it is kind and good, but very few chat rooms w/ both view points being expressed. Remember the qualifications required to post here when evaluating advice.
> 
> It sounds like your wife has some problems relating to these kinds of issues and you are wise and caring to help her work on it as opposed to just telling her she's wrong. Being married doesn't mean you can't disagree, you just have to be loving about it.
Click to expand...

Completely agree with all of that. It’s tough. I’m trying to balance being sensitive and open minded to her feelings and claims, while also trying to communicate and stick to my reality which is that I have integrity and I should be allowed to also disagree , in a loving and gentle way as you said. I was having a hard time finding the right approach to begin resolving the tensions to the level where we could reach a compromise and base understanding to go off of. I’m about there now. Part of the struggle to is my wife gets worked up when we talk about things that are emotional triggers for her, so my tendency to want to have long conversations and hash out everything at once doesn’t work with her, I have to give her grace, talking about things in smaller lumps that she’s able to better handle. 

My wife has suffered with anxiety and some depression ever since having basically back to back pregnancies, and I can’t imagine the entire extent and effect of all the hormonal and physical changes her body has endured, and her mind as well. 

Also, people would be shocked to see how strong willed my wife is I think. She’s a bulldozer. Honestly for years I basically let her be that way, because I was trying to hard not to be my dad. My dad was an ******* who most
Of the time shot down my mom and ignored her, did what he wanted, and In arguments would just tear her down and verbally assault her into submitting to him. I didn’t ever want to do that, but I went too far and was to meek and afraid to argue with my wife for many years. These past two years I’ve begun to speak up more and more, especially in the past year. It’s an incredibly difficult balance, and I’m hoping we can find a good counselor to help us in establishing healthy dispute resolution methods.


----------



## Jdwino92

SpinyNorman said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If someone says that’s infidelity, I would agree that it’s lidicrous to say that. But I think what I’m saying is perhaps this is what is making her uncomfortable.
> 
> Would you agree? If not why? And if so, how would you handle it?
> 
> I’m still open to suggestions and advice from either camp.
> 
> 
> 
> That may be what's making her uncomfortable, why don't you ask her? If you're seeing a counsellor hopefully he/she is asking that.
> 
> I am horrified by the idea that enjoying a walk or a story w/ another woman is threatening to my marriage. The things I agreed to stop enjoying w/ other women did not include those.
Click to expand...

Did you mean talk, not walk?

If so, yeah, I think it was the ongoing talks with this woman, about subjects that I’m especially interested and passionate about, that made my wife uncomfortable. I agree though, I’m more in the camp that talking to and having friends of the opposite sex isn’t always some ticking time bomb. It’s certainly smart to treat interactions with the opposite sex with a different approach or set of rules I think.


----------



## NextTimeAround

SpinyNorman said:


> I was never aware of any rules saying I couldn't have OSFs and would never have agreed to them if I had been. If TS's wife had such a rule in mind she should have made it clear before the wedding.
> 
> If you had some other rule in mind, please clarify. This is the problem w/ unwritten rules.


You obviously are not observing the way some wives maneuver things. Are you married?


----------



## NextTimeAround

SpinyNorman said:


> So this is the definition of infidelity? Wow.


yes. in the 1950s, if you were ever alone with a woman that you were not related to, people would assume the worst as well.

So tell me what's new these days.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Jdwino92 said:


> I definitely agree with what SpinyNorman is saying in relation to what I was saying - I can’t use anecdotal stories here as evidence. Not as an objective study either. The best an anecdote can really hope to be is a great introduction to a thesis or proof that would than make its case using actual citations of facts, logic, and real statistics and studies, or experiments.


There are many anecdotes out there about how people have so many OSFs and their spouse doesn't have a problem with it. They are friends with ex's, these OSFs have been best men and matrons of honor in their weddings. Spent the night together; taken trips together; god knows whatever else........

just wait until your wife starts doing those things. Then you'll have an anecdote of your own.

So yeah, go ahead and choose the anecdotes that work for you.


----------



## NextTimeAround

SpinyNorman said:


> It's kind of like going to the Emergency Room and asking if bicycling is safe, they tend to receive one kind of evidence and are understandably emotionally affected by the worst of it.


yeah, and my grandmother was a 3 packer for several decades and died at the age of 92. Guess that means smoking is healthy for you.


----------



## frusdil

Jdwino92 said:


> Also, people would be shocked to see how strong willed my wife is I think. She’s a bulldozer. Honestly for years I basically let her be that way, *because I was trying to hard not to be my dad. My dad was an ******* who most
> Of the time shot down my mom and ignored her, did what he wanted,* and In arguments would just tear her down and verbally assault her into submitting to him.


And yet, here you are. Just like your dad.

Look, you're looking for someone to tell you that your wife is completely irrational, jealous, controlling. You refuse to accept that she isn't being any of those things about your friendship with this woman. She is trying to protect your marriage from the risk that this friendship is to it. Maybe not right now, but down the track.

I believe you when you say nothing inappropriate has happened. I know this. What you don't understand, and you're young, so I get it, is that SO many affairs start out just like this. And they never meant to.

But, all we can do is warn you, it's up to you take the advice or not. Not my marriage so...


----------



## Thor

Jdwino92 said:


> Well my thought was cold turkey would be weird and invoke questioning. Unless my intention is to announce to her what I’m doing, I thought a phase back leading to a cut off worked better. But I did ask the question of how I should handle this, say something and cut off cold turkey or Don’t say anything and just gradually shift it. I think saying something to her wouldn’t be wise.


I could offer you an answer but it would be an opinion without a slew of peer reviewed published studies to support it.

Why do you care what this OW thinks about you or why you are ending private communications with her.


----------



## Jdwino92

Thor said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well my thought was cold turkey would be weird and invoke questioning. Unless my intention is to announce to her what I’m doing, I thought a phase back leading to a cut off worked better. But I did ask the question of how I should handle this, say something and cut off cold turkey or Don’t say anything and just gradually shift it. I think saying something to her wouldn’t be wise.
> 
> 
> 
> I could offer you an answer but it would be an opinion without a slew of peer reviewed published studies to support it.
> 
> Why do you care what this OW thinks about you or why you are ending private communications with her.
Click to expand...

Because I’m also good friends now with her boyfriend and also other people in the same group. So I don’t want to cause unnecessary drama


----------



## Jdwino92

Listen, I like hearing opinions. What I don’t like are *******s who act like their opinion is to be taken as fact, accepted without question. Especially if you don’t cite reasons for your opinion.


----------



## Jdwino92

frusdil said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, people would be shocked to see how strong willed my wife is I think. She’s a bulldozer. Honestly for years I basically let her be that way, *because I was trying to hard not to be my dad. My dad was an ******* who most
> Of the time shot down my mom and ignored her, did what he wanted,* and In arguments would just tear her down and verbally assault her into submitting to him.
> 
> 
> 
> And yet, here you are. Just like your dad.
> 
> Look, you're looking for someone to tell you that your wife is completely irrational, jealous, controlling. You refuse to accept that she isn't being any of those things about your friendship with this woman. She is trying to protect your marriage from the risk that this friendship is to it. Maybe not right now, but down the track.
> 
> I believe you when you say nothing inappropriate has happened. I know this. What you don't understand, and you're young, so I get it, is that SO many affairs start out just like this. And they never meant to.
> 
> But, all we can do is warn you, it's up to you take the advice or not. Not my marriage so...
Click to expand...

All you did was cherry pick what I said. And I’m not ignoring her or overruling her.


----------



## SpinyNorman

Jdwino92 said:


> Did you mean talk, not walk?
> 
> If so, yeah, I think it was the ongoing talks with this woman, about subjects that I’m especially interested and passionate about, that made my wife uncomfortable. I agree though, I’m more in the camp that talking to and having friends of the opposite sex isn’t always some ticking time bomb. It’s certainly smart to treat interactions with the opposite sex with a different approach or set of rules I think.


I meant "walk" although "talk" would work as well. My point is that "enjoying something with another woman" is not of itself a bad thing.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Jdwino92 said:


> Well my thought was cold turkey would be weird and invoke questioning. Unless my intention is to announce to her what I’m doing, I thought a phase back leading to a cut off worked better. But I did ask the question of how I should handle this, say something and cut off cold turkey or Don’t say anything and just gradually shift it. I think saying something to her wouldn’t be wise.


Quietly downshift things works well. was is this woman going to do? complain that a married man takes 3 days to respond to her non emergency message? She'll look as needy and demanding as hell.


----------



## SpinyNorman

NextTimeAround said:


> You obviously are not observing the way some wives maneuver things. Are you married?


What do you assume I don' observe? I didn't make any statement about what I observe.


----------



## NextTimeAround

SpinyNorman said:


> What do you assume I don' observe? I didn't make any statement about what I observe.


If you were observant you would notice the things that women do to keep distance between their husband and other women.

I was once at a friend's birthday party and this hot guy started talking to me. Then I noticed that his wife was right there beside him. as far as I'm concerned, note taken.


----------



## Jdwino92

SpinyNorman said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did you mean talk, not walk?
> 
> If so, yeah, I think it was the ongoing talks with this woman, about subjects that I’m especially interested and passionate about, that made my wife uncomfortable. I agree though, I’m more in the camp that talking to and having friends of the opposite sex isn’t always some ticking time bomb. It’s certainly smart to treat interactions with the opposite sex with a different approach or set of rules I think.
> 
> 
> 
> I meant "walk" although "talk" would work as well. My point is that "enjoying something with another woman" is not of itself a bad thing.
Click to expand...

Idk. I would think it a little weird to take a walk with a woman that isn’t my wife. 

But I think people generally over exaggerate the dangers of interacting with the opposite sex. 

People gave me flack for saying the word vagina a lot. I say it because at the end of the day, I don’t think actions are super influenced towards good or bad based on penis vs vagina. Talking is just talking. Having sex with someone who isn’t my wife is always wrong whether it’s with another man or another woman. 

I draw the line at things that can be misconstrued and I don’t do things in person one on one with a woman generally, and if I have to for some reason I make sure it’s very public, proper distance from each other, etc.


----------



## Jdwino92

NextTimeAround said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well my thought was cold turkey would be weird and invoke questioning. Unless my intention is to announce to her what I’m doing, I thought a phase back leading to a cut off worked better. But I did ask the question of how I should handle this, say something and cut off cold turkey or Don’t say anything and just gradually shift it. I think saying something to her wouldn’t be wise.
> 
> 
> 
> Quietly downshift things works well. was is this woman going to do? complain that a married man takes 3 days to respond to her non emergency message? She'll look as needy and demanding as hell.
Click to expand...

Yeah, if she actually complained or got upset I’d count that are more proof towards my wife’s gut feeling. I think she won’t really make too much notice of it though to be honest.


----------



## SpinyNorman

NextTimeAround said:


> If you were observant you would notice the things that women do to keep distance between their husband and other women.
> 
> I was once at a friend's birthday party and this hot guy started talking to me. Then I noticed that his wife was right there beside him. as far as I'm concerned, note taken.


I actually have observed that some women are suspicious, never said differently. I've also observed women aren't all the same.


----------



## Rob_1

An opinion is that what it is, just an opinion, in whichever content is given. You are also cherry picking what you consider that it is beneficial to your way of thinking. 
An onion is just an onion, but you can rationalize it in a gazillion ways, if you want. So, here obviously, you just overtly want an agreement with your rationalization; which has nothing to do with the real problem: that of your wife's request; wether, silly, irrational or not, fact is she's asking you to cut it out with this specific female. 

You've had imply that you're smart. If so, think about what this one specific issue as it gets added to the rest of those other specifics issues that will be added as time goes on in your marriage, what it will do to erode in the way your wife will think of/evaluate you. In the long run you might find out that it was another one ignored request too many, and your marriage's done. It happens all the time to the best of us.

Bottom line: for the sake of your marriage, either comply to appease, or reach for an agreeable compromise.


----------



## SpinyNorman

Jdwino92 said:


> Idk. I would think it a little weird to take a walk with a woman that isn’t my wife.


 I've done this, no accidents resulting in penetration.


> But I think people generally over exaggerate the dangers of interacting with the opposite sex.
> 
> People gave me flack for saying the word vagina a lot.
> 
> I say it because at the end of the day, I don’t think actions are super influenced towards good or bad based on penis vs vagina.


 I have to wonder how many of the people who assign you bad motives consider a woman a life support system for a vagina.


> Talking is just talking. Having sex with someone who isn’t my wife is always wrong whether it’s with another man or another woman.
> 
> I draw the line at things that can be misconstrued and I don’t do things in person one on one with a woman generally, and if I have to for some reason I make sure it’s very public, proper distance from each other, etc.


Considering people's ability to construe things as bad, I won't take on such a restriction.


----------



## Jdwino92

Rob_1 said:


> An opinion is that what it is, just an opinion, in whichever content is given. You are also cherry picking what you consider that it is beneficial to your way of thinking.
> An onion is just an onion, but you can rationalize it in a gazillion ways, if you want. So, here obviously, you just overtly want an agreement with your rationalization; which has nothing to do with the real problem: that of your wife's request; wether, silly, irrational or not, fact is she's asking you to cut it out with this specific female.
> 
> You've had imply that you're smart. If so, think about what this one specific issue as it gets added to the rest of those other specifics issues that will be added as time goes on in your marriage, what it will do to erode in the way your wife will think of/evaluate you. In the long run you might find out that it was another one ignored request too many, and your marriage's done. It happens all the time to the best of us.
> 
> Bottom line: for the sake of your marriage, either comply to appease, or reach for an agreeable compromise.


I am making compromises and agreements with my wife 

I have listened to and praised many opinions on here, from even those being hostile, that I felt were valid and reasonably supportable, and not all of them fit my narrative.


----------



## Jdwino92

SpinyNorman said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Idk. I would think it a little weird to take a walk with a woman that isn’t my wife.
> 
> 
> 
> I've done this, no accidents resulting in penetration.
> 
> 
> 
> But I think people generally over exaggerate the dangers of interacting with the opposite sex.
> 
> People gave me flack for saying the word vagina a lot.
> 
> I say it because at the end of the day, I don’t think actions are super influenced towards good or bad based on penis vs vagina.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have to wonder how many of the people who assign you bad motives consider a woman a life support system for a vagina.
> 
> 
> 
> Talking is just talking. Having sex with someone who isn’t my wife is always wrong whether it’s with another man or another woman.
> 
> I draw the line at things that can be misconstrued and I don’t do things in person one on one with a woman generally, and if I have to for some reason I make sure it’s very public, proper distance from each other, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Considering people's ability to construe things as bad, I won't take on such a restriction.
Click to expand...

I wouldn’t say anyone should force you to take on any of the restrictions I choose to put on myself. 

I couldn’t help but laugh at he quip about accidental penetration. 

But you know, I’m just so blind. 

One day she’s going to whisper to me at a meeting “taxation is theft”, and I’ll just somehow find myself having sex with her, someone who I find physically repulsive, and blowing my marriage up. 

That’s how the world works I guess.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Jdwino92 said:


> I wouldn’t say anyone should force you to take on any of the restrictions I choose to put on myself.
> 
> I couldn’t help but laugh at he quip about accidental penetration.
> 
> But you know, I’m just so blind.
> 
> One day she’s going to whisper to me at a meeting “taxation is theft”, and I’ll just somehow find myself having sex with her, someone who I find physically repulsive, and blowing my marriage up.
> 
> That’s how the world works I guess.


yes, it does.


----------



## TRy

Jdwino92 said:


> I am making compromises and agreements with my wife.


That is a good thing. Do not be surprised if it takes some posters time to catch up with that fact, as many will be responding to some of your earlier posts.


----------



## tech-novelist

Jdwino92 said:


> Perhaps, and I’m starting to understand the concerns by some of the people here. I think I am confident in that I am not doing anything with bad intent, but I think the fact that I’m doing something that’s enjoyable to me with another woman, and my wife isn’t particularly interested/as good at it, it very much now makes sense to me why it would look bad to my wife and cause some insecurities.
> 
> I showed her this section of the thread and she instantly connected and agreed with it. I’m her words, politics and philosophy is pretty much my greatest passion, so while they might seem like innocent subjects of conversation, my enjoyment of these subjects with the other women is what is worrisome to her.


I'm impressed by your willingness to consider that you may need to change your views. That is very rare on this site, as it is in the general population.

By the way, I'm very argumentative but am willing to be convinced that I am (or may be) wrong. That has served me well in life.


----------



## tech-novelist

Jdwino92 said:


> I wouldn’t say anyone should force you to take on any of the restrictions I choose to put on myself.
> 
> I couldn’t help but laugh at he quip about accidental penetration.
> 
> But you know, I’m just so blind.
> 
> One day she’s going to whisper to me at a meeting “taxation is theft”, and I’ll just somehow find myself having sex with her, someone who I find physically repulsive, and blowing my marriage up.
> 
> That’s how the world works I guess.


Now you have me really worried. That is the sexiest thing a woman can say to a man! >


----------



## Jdwino92

tech-novelist said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps, and I’m starting to understand the concerns by some of the people here. I think I am confident in that I am not doing anything with bad intent, but I think the fact that I’m doing something that’s enjoyable to me with another woman, and my wife isn’t particularly interested/as good at it, it very much now makes sense to me why it would look bad to my wife and cause some insecurities.
> 
> I showed her this section of the thread and she instantly connected and agreed with it. I’m her words, politics and philosophy is pretty much my greatest passion, so while they might seem like innocent subjects of conversation, my enjoyment of these subjects with the other women is what is worrisome to her.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm impressed by your willingness to consider that you may need to change your views. That is very rare on this site, as it is in the general population.
> 
> By the way, I'm very argumentative but am willing to be convinced that I am (or may be) wrong. That has served me well in life.
Click to expand...




tech-novelist said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn’t say anyone should force you to take on any of the restrictions I choose to put on myself.
> 
> I couldn’t help but laugh at he quip about accidental penetration.
> 
> But you know, I’m just so blind.
> 
> One day she’s going to whisper to me at a meeting “taxation is theft”, and I’ll just somehow find myself having sex with her, someone who I find physically repulsive, and blowing my marriage up.
> 
> That’s how the world works I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> Now you have me really worried. That is the sexiest thing a woman can say to a man! <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_devil.png" border="0" alt="" title="Devil" ></a>
Click to expand...

Haha, I guess I’m screwed 😆

I agree with your approach. I’m very argumentative and opinionated but I’m always open to being proved wrong or at least considering alternative view points.


----------



## TRy

Jdwino92 said:


> I agree with your approach. I’m very argumentative and opinionated but I’m always open to being proved wrong or at least considering alternative view points.


 The danger with the "very argumentative and opinionated but I’m always open" approach is that a lot of good advice is filtered out, because many people just do not want to deal with the hassle of it all. Just a though.


----------



## Jdwino92

TRy said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with your approach. I’m very argumentative and opinionated but I’m always open to being proved wrong or at least considering alternative view points.
> 
> 
> 
> The danger with the "very argumentative and opinionated but I’m always open" approach is that a lot of good advice is filtered out, because many people just do not want to deal with the hassle of it all. Just a though.
Click to expand...

True but then there’s also the danger of “being so open minded that your brain falls out”.


----------



## TRy

Jdwino92 said:


> True but then there’s also the danger of “being so open minded that your brain falls out”.


Everything in moderation.


----------



## BluesPower

Jdwino92 said:


> Although I’m really really curious to have an Internet stranger tell me exactly who I am based on my reaction to said person being at best unintentionally irrational , rude and obtuse ?


The reason that happens is that we could see that you were a young know it all from about the first post. 

Tell you what, when you wife gets pissed of enough to cut you off, or file for divorce, will you be courageous enough to come back one say and say, "Guess what, you guys were all right. Wife filed for divorce, and we have not had sex for 2 years. And she cited my inability to understand how she felt, and I did not take her feelings into consideration in the marriage." 

But that won't matter to you though, because she had no logical reason to feel that way. Anyway, it was a starter marriage to start with.


----------



## SpinyNorman

BluesPower said:


> The reason that happens is that we could see that you were a young know it all from about the first post.
> 
> Tell you what, when you wife gets pissed of enough to cut you off, or file for divorce, will you be courageous enough to come back one say and say, "Guess what, you guys were all right. Wife filed for divorce, and we have not had sex for 2 years. And she cited my inability to understand how she felt, and I did not take her feelings into consideration in the marriage."
> 
> But that won't matter to you though, because she had no logical reason to feel that way. Anyway, it was a starter marriage to start with.


TS has made several mentions of trying to understand how she feels and communicate w/ her about it. 

I hope they do work through this, but if not, it doesn't mean either of them are worse off. Sometimes everyone benefits from a divorce.


----------



## TRy

BluesPower said:


> The reason that happens is that we could see that you were a young know it all from about the first post.
> 
> Tell you what, when you wife gets pissed of enough to cut you off, or file for divorce, will you be courageous enough to come back one say and say, "Guess what, you guys were all right. Wife filed for divorce, and we have not had sex for 2 years. And she cited my inability to understand how she felt, and I did not take her feelings into consideration in the marriage."
> 
> But that won't matter to you though, because she had no logical reason to feel that way. Anyway, it was a starter marriage to start with.


I am guessing that you have not had time to read the last few pages of this thread. Although I may have agreed with you earlier on (most of this thread) because the OP is very argumentative, I believe that the OP is now trying to understand his wife's point of view, and he has now agreed to meaningful compromises.


----------



## BluesPower

TRy said:


> I am guessing that you have not had time to read the last few pages of this thread. Although I may have agreed with you earlier on (most of this thread) because the OP is very argumentative, I believe that the OP is now trying to understand his wife's point of view, and he has now agreed to meaningful compromises.


No actually I have, and I stand by what I wrote here according to his post that he just wrote.


----------



## TheBohannons

According to your post, you compromised with the wife and agreed to stop pming the OW. Did you inform your wife that you were breaking your word? Or is that something she does not need to know?


----------



## personofinterest

BluesPower said:


> TRy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am guessing that you have not had time to read the last few pages of this thread. Although I may have agreed with you earlier on (most of this thread) because the OP is very argumentative, I believe that the OP is now trying to understand his wife's point of view, and he has now agreed to meaningful compromises.
> 
> 
> 
> No actually I have, and I stand by what I wrote here according to his post that he just wrote.
Click to expand...

Me too.


----------



## personofinterest

TheBohannons said:


> According to your post, you compromised with the wife and agreed to stop pming the OW. Did you inform your wife that you were breaking your word? Or is that something she does not need to know?


It wouldnt be logical to let her know. She might get emotional.


----------



## Jdwino92

TheBohannons said:


> According to your post, you compromised with the wife and agreed to stop pming the OW. Did you inform your wife that you were breaking your word? Or is that something she does not need to know?





personofinterest said:


> TheBohannons said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to your post, you compromised with the wife and agreed to stop pming the OW. Did you inform your wife that you were breaking your word? Or is that something she does not need to know?
> 
> 
> 
> It wouldnt be logical to let her know. She might get emotional.
Click to expand...

Wow......

So my wife and I agreed that I’d stop pming this OW. We talked about it, initially she wanted a full stop, pull out from the group and that would be that. Form our talk, we compromised. I’ve scaled back talking to this woman pm, I hadn’t messaged her all weekend anyway, she messaged me yesterday sharing a video about Trump, I made a short comment and that was it. I’m not initiating any contact with her. I’m still commenting on the group chat which she is a part of but I’m trying to focus on talking to the males in the group. My wife is completely aware of what I’m doing.


----------



## TheBohannons

JD, I think you actually believe what you write. However you are married to a woman, not a man.

"I don't mind staying home on Valentine's day" does not mean you can order a pizza. She may have compromised in words, but women do not forget.

Carry on at your own risk, brother.


----------



## Jdwino92

TheBohannons said:


> JD, I think you actually believe what you write. However you are married to a woman, not a man.
> 
> "I don't mind staying home on Valentine's day" does not mean you can order a pizza. She may have compromised in words, but women do not forget.
> 
> Carry on at your own risk, brother.


Well I think I’m a good guage of when my wife is upset even if I don’t understand her reasons all the time. But if there’s anything still brewing beneath the surface I’d imagine it will come out during counseling


----------



## PigglyWiggly

Jdwino92 said:


> Wow......
> 
> So my wife and I agreed that I’d stop pming this OW. We talked about it, initially she wanted a full stop, pull out from the group and that would be that. Form our talk, we compromised. I’ve scaled back talking to this woman pm, I hadn’t messaged her all weekend anyway, she messaged me yesterday sharing a video about Trump, I made a short comment and that was it. I’m not initiating any contact with her. I’m still commenting on the group chat which she is a part of but I’m trying to focus on talking to the males in the group. My wife is completely aware of what I’m doing.


your wife needs to be COMPLETELY aware of what you are doing. She is your teammate. You are going to rue the day that another man gives your wife the emotional security that she needs while you are playing in a chat group. I believe you love your wife but I don't think she believes it. You can do better and I hope you will and have a better marriage because of it. Good luck brother!!!


----------



## TRy

Jdwino92 said:


> So my wife and I agreed that I’d stop pming this OW.


 Yes you posted that you agreed that you would "stop pming this OW", and your question became "But I did ask the question of how I should handle this, say something and cut off cold turkey or Don’t say anything and just gradually shift it. I think saying something to her wouldn’t be wise." So are you still committed to winding down until you cut the other woman off from all non-group pming, or are you now only going to cut back and not stop completely?


----------



## TRy

Jdwino92 said:


> Well I think I’m a good guage of when my wife is upset even if I don’t understand her reasons all the time.


You say that you think that you are "a good guage of when my wife is upset even if I don’t understand her reasons", yet aren't you the same guy that ignored your wife's concern about the other woman for 8 months because you said that you were not aware of her concern? This fact based question is based on reason and logic LOL!


----------



## Jdwino92

TRy said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So my wife and I agreed that I’d stop pming this OW.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you posted that you agreed that you would "stop pming this OW", and your question became "But I did ask the question of how I should handle this, say something and cut off cold turkey or Don’t say anything and just gradually shift it. I think saying something to her wouldn’t be wise." So are you still committed to winding down until you cut the other woman off from all non-group pming, or are you now only going to cut back and not stop completely?
Click to expand...




TRy said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I think I’m a good guage of when my wife is upset even if I don’t understand her reasons all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> You say that you think that you are "a good guage of when my wife is upset even if I don’t understand her reasons", yet aren't you the same guy that ignored your wife's concern about the other woman for 8 months because you said that you were not aware of her concern? This fact based question is based on reason and logic LOL!
Click to expand...

It will completely stop, aside from trivial things like if she asks me a question or something but I will not have conversations with her through PM. I’m not going to flat out ignore messages from her. 

For 8 months it wasn’t like constant tension or problems. It’s honestly hard to explain, and I could try if it matters to you or anyone but basically, I was under the impression she just didn’t like this woman, like not in a jealous or threatened way but just in a annoyed or impersonal way.


----------



## TRy

Jdwino92 said:


> For 8 months it wasn’t like constant tension or problems. It’s honestly hard to explain, and I could try if it matters to you or anyone but basically, I was under the impression she just didn’t like this woman, like not in a jealous or threatened way but just in a annoyed or impersonal way.


OK so for 8 months you were wrongly "under the impression she just didn’t like this woman, like not in a jealous or threatened way but just in a annoyed or impersonal way", which is contrary to your earlier statement that you have a "good guage of when my wife is upset". Rather than just argue about it, why can't you just admit that when it comes to understanding women, you are just like the rest of us men? There is no shame in this LOL.


----------



## Jdwino92

TRy said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> For 8 months it wasn’t like constant tension or problems. It’s honestly hard to explain, and I could try if it matters to you or anyone but basically, I was under the impression she just didn’t like this woman, like not in a jealous or threatened way but just in a annoyed or impersonal way.
> 
> 
> 
> OK so for 8 months you were wrongly "under the impression she just didn’t like this woman, like not in a jealous or threatened way but just in a annoyed or impersonal way", which is contrary to your earlier statement that you have a "good guage of when my wife is upset". Rather than just argue about it, why can't you just admit that when it comes to understanding women, you are just like the rest of us men? There is no shame in this LOL.
Click to expand...

Lol fair enough man. I’m not saying I’ve cracked some code.


----------



## The Middleman

Jdwino92 said:


> Lol fair enough man. I’m not saying I’ve cracked some code.


Here is a little bit about “the code” that I’ve learned over the years: Spouses, male or female, can sense when their partners are forming a bond with a member of the opposite sex. A natural defense mechanism kicks in and they go into protection mode. Today we call that jealousy, and we view it as a bad thing, especially in this enlightened day and age. Actually, it’s not a bad thing, it’s a spouse protecting what is theirs. 

Your wife is not wrong. When my wife starting connecting with another guy, I put an end to it in a way that didn’t give her a choice about it, unless she divorced me.

Like it or not, you are bonding with another female in a way that your wife can’t (over politics). Her defense mechanism kicked it and she is doing something about it. I’m going to go out on a limb, and I’ll tell you that unless you stop all interactions with the other woman, this tension between you and your wife is going to keep coming up over and over again, regardless of the measures you take, because your wife’s reaction is a simple instinctual protective reaction. I will also say that any measure you make to cut back on interacting with this woman is only temporary. I think you are addicted to the attention you are getting from this woman and the connection over politics that you have. You will slip back into your old habits, unless you cut all contact with this woman. “You can’t fool Mother Nature”


----------



## Jdwino92

The Middleman said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lol fair enough man. I’m not saying I’ve cracked some code.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a little bit about “the code” that I’ve learned over the years: Spouses, male or female, can sense when their partners are forming a bond with a member of the opposite sex. A natural defense mechanism kicks in and they go into protection mode. Today we call that jealousy, and we view it as a bad thing, especially in this enlightened day and age. Actually, it’s not a bad thing, it’s a spouse protecting what is theirs.
> 
> Your wife is not wrong. When my wife starting connecting with another guy, I put an end to it in a way that didn’t give her a choice about it, unless she divorced me.
> 
> Like it or not, you are bonding with another female in a way that your wife can’t (over politics). Her defense mechanism kicked it and she is doing something about it. I’m going to go out on a limb, and I’ll tell you that unless you stop all interactions with the other woman, this tension between you and your wife is going to keep coming up over and over again, regardless of the measures you take, because your wife’s reaction is a simple instinctual protective reaction. I will also say that any measure you make to cut back on interacting with this woman is only temporary. I think you are addicted to the attention you are getting from this woman and the connection over politics that you have. You will slip back into your old habits, unless you cut all contact with this woman. “You can’t fool Mother Nature”
Click to expand...

Idk, I just wasn’t raised to think that male/female relationships were reducible to that level. I was raised to have discipline and self control, and to not let outside forces be an excuse for my own behavior. It goes against my view of life and humanity to think of myself and humanity as so driven by nature that we are slaves to it, with no hope for self control. I don’t throw caution to the wind but I don’t view all women who aren’t my wife in this lens of being dangerous sand traps I might accidentally fall into.


----------



## The Middleman

Jdwino92 said:


> Idk, I just wasn’t raised to think that male/female relationships were reducible to that level. I was raised to have discipline and self control, and to not let outside forces be an excuse for my own behavior. It goes against my view of life and humanity to think of myself and humanity as so driven by nature that we are slaves to it, with no hope for self control. I don’t throw caution to the wind but I don’t view all women who aren’t my wife in this lens of being dangerous sand traps I might accidentally fall into.


Just my opinion here: You are younger than me (Millennial?) and raised with a set of assumptions that I consider flawed. there are differences between the genders and natural instincts can’t always be socially overcome. Another thing (and I don’t say this to offend); you are way too defensive of keeping your relationship with this other woman to make me think I am wrong about this.


----------



## Jdwino92

The Middleman said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Idk, I just wasn’t raised to think that male/female relationships were reducible to that level. I was raised to have discipline and self control, and to not let outside forces be an excuse for my own behavior. It goes against my view of life and humanity to think of myself and humanity as so driven by nature that we are slaves to it, with no hope for self control. I don’t throw caution to the wind but I don’t view all women who aren’t my wife in this lens of being dangerous sand traps I might accidentally fall into.
> 
> 
> 
> Just my opinion here: You are younger than me (Millennial?) and raised with a set of assumptions that I consider flawed. there are differences between the genders and natural instincts can’t always be socially overcome. Another thing (and I don’t say this to offend); you are way too defensive of keeping your relationship with this other woman to make me think I am wrong about this.
Click to expand...

I’m 26. 

I don’t believe in the postmodern identity politics leftist revision of sex and gender. I do believe there are differences between the two sexes and that sex determines your gender except for those who are intersex. I know the differences run deeper than just looks and reproductive organs. BUT, I’m also a Christian and I believe that through the reforming power of the Holy Spirit that our minds and soul are made new. I don’t consider myself above sin at all, or infallible. I do draw lines in the sand about interactions with the opposite sex. I never would hang out in person with a woman one on one. I would never confide in another woman emotionally (other than maybe my mother and my sister). I would never talk to this woman more than my wife or instead of my wife. 

This woman and I have had several long chats and debates before but mostly the private message interaction was no different than the interaction I have with women at my church who I know. We will send each other links and videos we think the other would be interested in, make a few comments on the item shared, and that’s it. Occasionally she’ll send me a message asking for my opinion on something politically or philosophically. I’m not like up to 2 in the morning having some inappropriate online emotional affair with this woman. I DO understand more now how the fact that this woman is superior to my wife in her interest and aptitude for politics, and given my passion for politics that it is triggering a response in my wife. I think it’s natural and normal for her to feel the way she’s feeling where as before I didn’t. But I think it’s her subconscious misinterpreting signals and perceiving a threat when there is none. That’s extremely common in this day and age - our bodies are tuned for dangers that no longer exist or don’t exist in the same ways they used to. The effect the internet has on us especially has been studied and demonstrated a great deal.


----------



## Jdwino92

I think I’m defensive from the context of our relationship where I typically just go along and do what my wife wants, catering to her feelings all the time. Between that and then being defensive because it felt like my wife didn’t trust me and that so many people here were doubting my intentions. I can’t overstate how unattractive I find this woman and how trivial our interactions are. I love talking about politics but I don’t get emotionally attached to people just because we have a discussion about taxes and govermment and because the person is female. And from that, the idea that from there I was doomed to an escalation of nuking my marriage is still something I find unconciable.


----------



## PigglyWiggly

Jdwino92 said:


> I think I’m defensive from the context of our relationship where I typically just go along and do what my wife wants, catering to her feelings all the time. Between that and then being defensive because it felt like my wife didn’t trust me and that so many people here were doubting my intentions. I can’t overstate how unattractive I find this woman and how trivial our interactions are. I love talking about politics but I don’t get emotionally attached to people just because we have a discussion about taxes and govermment and because the person is female. And from that, the idea that from there I was doomed to an escalation of nuking my marriage is still something I find unconciable.


I see where you are coming from. To you, what would be the ideal solution?


----------



## Jdwino92

One last thing , I also was defensive because instead of the focus of this thread being helping me to understand all of the nuance and different perspectives behind all of this, it felt like to focus wa shifted to people attacking my character and assuming to know everything about me and my intentions and love for my wife. I GET that I came here asking for opinions but I don’t think it’s unreasonable on my part that I was expecting thoughtful responses about the subject at hand and not a slew of people telling me I was going to be divorced in less than a year and the assuredness by which the claims were made. 

The friendship with this woman is not my highest concern, it’s the IDEA that being married automatically means I have to view all women as potential traps to the degree of not being able to have any form of friendship with a woman period outside of my wife. And also the IDEA that just because something upsets my wife that I should just always give her what she asks or demands of me. As I expressed earlier, my wife takes no regard for any of my thoughts or feelings as she chooses to cosleep with the children, to homeschool our children, and she’s equally controlling of what male friends I have too I would say. My wife isn’t some victim of my oppression finally putting her foot down. My wife gets her way 95% of the time. I’ve explained this in more detail throughout the thread.


----------



## Jdwino92

PigglyWiggly said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think I’m defensive from the context of our relationship where I typically just go along and do what my wife wants, catering to her feelings all the time. Between that and then being defensive because it felt like my wife didn’t trust me and that so many people here were doubting my intentions. I can’t overstate how unattractive I find this woman and how trivial our interactions are. I love talking about politics but I don’t get emotionally attached to people just because we have a discussion about taxes and govermment and because the person is female. And from that, the idea that from there I was doomed to an escalation of nuking my marriage is still something I find unconciable.
> 
> 
> 
> I see where you are coming from. To you, what would be the ideal solution?
Click to expand...

I’ve agreed to scale back our pm interactions to zero or reasonably zero , like if she messages me I can message back but keep it short. She is for the moment ok with me still interacting in the group chat so long as I’m talking to everyone and not focusing on her. And we are searching for a place to get marriage counseling. I think my wife and I need to communicate and understand each other, and I am fine to make concessions to her in areas such as this where she’s uncomfortable but I want her to reciprocate and be more considerate of my feelings and opinions in different parts of our marriage and in the raising of our children, where my wife tends to bulldoze me.


----------



## Robert22205

Just a suggestion. How about not responding immediately to PMs from her. Maybe respond the next day. And never ever respond while you're in the company of your wife or children. Maybe it would help reassure your wife that the other woman is not a priority or competition - and you are happily married & busy within your family (i.e., not available). In other words, provide only close personal friends, family and business related PMs an immediate response ... while all others are not a high priority.


----------



## Jdwino92

Robert22205 said:


> Just a suggestion. How about not responding immediately to PMs from her. Maybe respond the next day. And never ever respond while you're in the company of your wife or children. Maybe it would help reassure your wife that the
> 
> other woman is not a priority or competition - and you are happily married & busy within your family (i.e., not available). In other words, provide only close personal friends, family and
> business related PMs an immediate response ... while all others are not a high priority.


To be clear, I message this woman when I’m at home with my family or over the weekend (I do sometimes chat on the group board with everybody there but it’s not often I do when I’m at home or with family). I don’t always reply right away but perhaps I could also help my wife feel better by not even responding within the same day.


----------



## PigglyWiggly

Jdwino92 said:


> I’ve agreed to scale back our pm interactions to zero or reasonably zero , like if she messages me I can message back but keep it short. She is for the moment ok with me still interacting in the group chat so long as I’m talking to everyone and not focusing on her. And we are searching for a place to get marriage counseling. I think my wife and I need to communicate and understand each other, and I am fine to make concessions to her in areas such as this where she’s uncomfortable but I want her to reciprocate and be more considerate of my feelings and opinions in different parts of our marriage and in the raising of our children, where my wife tends to bulldoze me.


Do you feel as though you guys are working together as a team right now towards a common goal?

What would be the ideal solution to your wife?


----------



## Rubix Cubed

SpinyNorman said:


> It's kind of like going to the Emergency Room and asking if bicycling is safe, they tend to receive one kind of evidence and are understandably emotionally affected by the worst of it.


 True, but if you REMOVE the "bicycle" from the equation it makes the safety factor 100%. Hence having no OSF or close OSF friends removes the possibility of things going sideways no matter how resolute and virtuous the person may think they are. It's a 100% failsafe.


----------



## personofinterest

Jdwino92 said:


> One last thing , I also was defensive because instead of the focus of this thread being helping me to understand all of the nuance and different perspectives behind all of this, it felt like to focus wa shifted to people attacking my character and assuming to know everything about me and my intentions and love for my wife. I GET that I came here asking for opinions but I don’t think it’s unreasonable on my part that I was expecting thoughtful responses about the subject at hand and not a slew of people telling me I was going to be divorced in less than a year and the assuredness by which the claims were made.
> 
> The friendship with this woman is not my highest concern, it’s the IDEA that being married automatically means I have to view all women as potential traps to the degree of not being able to have any form of friendship with a woman period outside of my wife. And also the IDEA that just because something upsets my wife that I should just always give her what she asks or demands of me. As I expressed earlier, my wife takes no regard for any of my thoughts or feelings as she chooses to cosleep with the children, to homeschool our children, and she’s equally controlling of what male friends I have too I would say. My wife isn’t some victim of my oppression finally putting her foot down. My wife gets her way 95% of the time. I’ve explained this in more detail throughout the thread.


Since you say you are a Christian and you imply you are conservative....what are your thoughts on the rule Mike Pence and Billy Graham had/have regarding women who are not their wives? What is your view of the verses that say guard your heart above all else and avoid all appearance of evil?

Is there a verse that says "Make sure you don't let your wife have her way too much," or is the verse "submit to one another in love" and "Love your wife as Christ loved the church"?

Just asking.


----------



## Jdwino92

PigglyWiggly said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I’ve agreed to scale back our pm interactions to zero or reasonably zero , like if she messages me I can message back but keep it short. She is for the moment ok with me still interacting in the group chat so long as I’m talking to everyone and not focusing on her. And we are searching for a place to get marriage counseling. I think my wife and I need to communicate and understand each other, and I am fine to make concessions to her in areas such as this where she’s uncomfortable but I want her to reciprocate and be more considerate of my feelings and opinions in different parts of our marriage and in the raising of our children, where my wife tends to bulldoze me.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you feel as though you guys are working together as a team right now towards a common goal?
> 
> What would be the ideal solution to your wife?
Click to expand...

I can’t honestly say. Some days it feels like we are on the same page. We laugh, we kiss, we hold each other, we GET each other. Other days it’s like everything I do is wrong, and we don’t seem to even be on the same book let along page. I’m not mad at her, but I’m on edge and weary with her more than I yinkcis healthy. I told her yesterday that I’ve learned to feel apprehension and fear around her. She’s admitted to me that she knows on her worst days of depression (she’s suffered with PPD since the birth of our first child and it worsened with the second) and anxiety that she becomes unreasonable. She has said I need to stand up to her when she gets that way or to try and help her through it, but that’s easier said than done because my wife can’t be talked into doing anything. She’s incredibly strong willed, which I love about her Don’t get me wrong. But this is why we need counseling I think.


----------



## Jdwino92

personofinterest said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> One last thing , I also was defensive because instead of the focus of this thread being helping me to understand all of the nuance and different perspectives behind all of this, it felt like to focus wa shifted to people attacking my character and assuming to know everything about me and my intentions and love for my wife. I GET that I came here asking for opinions but I don’t think it’s unreasonable on my part that I was expecting thoughtful responses about the subject at hand and not a slew of people telling me I was going to be divorced in less than a year and the assuredness by which the claims were made.
> 
> The friendship with this woman is not my highest concern, it’s the IDEA that being married automatically means I have to view all women as potential traps to the degree of not being able to have any form of friendship with a woman period outside of my wife. And also the IDEA that just because something upsets my wife that I should just always give her what she asks or demands of me. As I expressed earlier, my wife takes no regard for any of my thoughts or feelings as she chooses to cosleep with the children, to homeschool our children, and she’s equally controlling of what male friends I have too I would say. My wife isn’t some victim of my oppression finally putting her foot down. My wife gets her way 95% of the time. I’ve explained this in more detail throughout the thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Since you say you are a Christian and you imply you are conservative....what are your thoughts on the rule Mike Pence and Billy Graham had/have regarding women who are not their wives? What is your view of the verses that say guard your heart above all else and avoid all appearance of evil?
> 
> Is there a verse that says "Make sure you don't let your wife have her way too much," or is the verse "submit to one another in love" and "Love your wife as Christ loved the church"?
> 
> Just asking.
Click to expand...

Submit to one another, not one submit and the other not. Also submit is sort of not the best word to translate to, a better way to say that would be to be accountable to one another, and to not seek to put your will and desire first. I do love my wife. Christ didn’t and doesn’t love the Church by not challenging us. Love is just as much about holding a mirror up as it is the other things. The Bible and these verses are so deep and multilayered that you can’t just take the surface level interpretation and run with it. 

Also, I have said at least ten times I have that rule - I don’t do anything in person one on one with a woman, not alone and not even in public. I also made it my business to get to know and become friends with this woman’s boyfriend, and I talk to him just about everyday too. I don’t talk to her about private matters or in an emotional way, I don’t confide in her or gain any emotional fulfillment from her. The most Id say I get it intellectual stimulation, it’s obvious I like to argue and debate and talk to people. I don’t JUST do that with this woman. I have a tendency to do that everywhere and with everyone and anyone. When I was young I would spend hours a day debating people on Facebook. I’ve cut that out and matured a lot, but I can’t completely
Change who I am and repress this aspect of my being either. And my wife gets that and suppprts my healthy expression of my intellectual outward extroverted personality.


----------



## personofinterest

Jdwino92 said:


> Submit to one another, not one submit and the other not. Also submit is sort of not the best word to translate to, a better way to say that would be to be accountable to one another, and to not seek to put your will and desire first. I do love my wife. Christ didn’t and doesn’t love the Church by not challenging us. Love is just as much about holding a mirror up as it is the other things. The Bible and these verses are so deep and multilayered that you can’t just take the surface level interpretation and run with it.
> 
> Also, I have said at least ten times I have that rule - I don’t do anything in person one on one with a woman, not alone and not even in public. I also made it my business to get to know and become friends with this woman’s boyfriend, and I talk to him just about everyday too. I don’t talk to her about private matters or in an emotional way, I don’t confide in her or gain any emotional fulfillment from her. The most Id say I get it intellectual stimulation, it’s obvious I like to argue and debate and talk to people. I don’t JUST do that with this woman. I have a tendency to do that everywhere and with everyone and anyone. When I was young I would spend hours a day debating people on Facebook. I’ve cut that out and matured a lot, but I can’t completely
> Change who I am and repress this aspect of my being either. And my wife gets that and suppprts my healthy expression of my intellectual outward extroverted personality.


I won't debate exegesis because this is not the place for it. However, I will say that it is essential that we focus on OUR OWN side of the street when interpreting those verses.

You seem to have all the answers you need. I wish you the best.


----------



## TRy

Jdwino92 said:


> Idk, I just wasn’t raised to think that male/female relationships were reducible to that level. I was raised to have discipline and self control, and to not let outside forces be an excuse for my own behavior. It goes against my view of life and humanity to think of myself and humanity as so driven by nature that we are slaves to it, with no hope for self control. I don’t throw caution to the wind but I don’t view all women who aren’t my wife in this lens of being dangerous sand traps I might accidentally fall into.


OK, your wife goes on a trip with a friend. To save money they decide to share a room at a motel. Would it matter to you if that friend was a guy? If it would, then you are acknowledging that you and humanity are "driven by nature". If it does not matter to you, then you would be throwing "caution to the wind". You cannot have it both ways, which is what you were trying to do above.

As an FYI, I along with most people in their 20s and 30s was more open to opposite sex friendships (OSF), but with time and the experience of seeing people that I know and trust end their marriages because of affairs, I am less open. The two things that I hear the most after an affair are "I never never meant for it to happen", and "I never thought that they were capable of doing such a thing".


----------



## Jdwino92

TRy said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Idk, I just wasn’t raised to think that male/female relationships were reducible to that level. I was raised to have discipline and self control, and to not let outside forces be an excuse for my own behavior. It goes against my view of life and humanity to think of myself and humanity as so driven by nature that we are slaves to it, with no hope for self control. I don’t throw caution to the wind but I don’t view all women who aren’t my wife in this lens of being dangerous sand traps I might accidentally fall into.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, your wife goes on a trip with a friend. To save money they decide to share a room at a motel. Would it matter to you if that friend was a guy? If it would, then you are acknowledging that you and humanity are "driven by nature". If it does not matter to you, then you would be throwing "caution to the wind". You cannot have it both ways, which is what you were trying to do above.
> 
> As an FYI, I along with most people in their 20s and 30s was more open to opposite sex friendships (OSF), but with time and the experience of seeing people that I know and trust end their marriages because of affairs, I am less open. The two things that I hear the most after an affair are "I never never meant for it to happen", and "I never thought that they were capable of doing such a thing".
Click to expand...

I wasn’t saying they aren’t driven by nature at all. I wouldn’t trust myself to sleep in a hotel room with another woman, as much as I would like to think I wouldn’t do anything. I think OS friendships are fine if they follow certain rules completely, and I always follow those rules. I believe we have the ability to overcome our sinful nature through the reformation of our soul and through prayer, meditation, discipline and wisdom. I don’t want to raise my son to view women as only those sexual beings you have to be careful about lest you somehow find yourself in trouble. I was raised to view them as just people and to have discipline of the mind. Basically don’t throw caution to the wind but I think complete avoidance is sort of to admit defeat from the start, to view yourself as weak. There’s a middle ground, sort of the balance between chaos and order, where you tell yourself that you aren’t infalliable but you’re at the same time not some meat puppet who is completely without will or control of himself.


----------



## SpinyNorman

Rubix Cubed said:


> True, but if you REMOVE the "bicycle" from the equation it makes the safety factor 100%. Hence having no OSF or close OSF friends removes the possibility of things going sideways no matter how resolute and virtuous the person may think they are. It's a 100% failsafe.


I'd much rather be cheated on than die in a car wreck, but almost every day I get in my car. Please talk me out of my insanity!

You can try to lead a 100% risk free life, but it's impossible. A 100% joy-free life, however, is easily attained along the way.


----------



## SpinyNorman

TRy said:


> OK, your wife goes on a trip with a friend. To save money they decide to share a room at a motel. Would it matter to you if that friend was a guy? If it would, then you are acknowledging that you and humanity are "driven by nature". If it does not matter to you, then you would be throwing "caution to the wind". You cannot have it both ways, which is what you were trying to do above.
> 
> As an FYI, I along with most people in their 20s and 30s was more open to opposite sex friendships (OSF), but with time and the experience of seeing people that I know and trust end their marriages because of affairs, I am less open. The two things that I hear the most after an affair are "I never never meant for it to happen", and "I never thought that they were capable of doing such a thing".


The way I look at it is if your marriage is healthy you can sleep in a room w/ an OSF and unless you're a POS you'll be faithful.

If your marriage is not healthy, playing detective on your spouse is addressing the symptom and not the cause. And I never signed up to be anyone's jailer.

Of course people take the passive tone, it sounds better. Skepticism comes in handy when dealing w/ admitted cheaters.


----------



## TRy

SpinyNorman said:


> The way I look at it is if your marriage is healthy you can sleep in a room w/ an OSF and unless you're a POS you'll be faithful.





SpinyNorman said:


> Skepticism comes in handy when dealing w/ admitted cheaters.


Since cheating often happens in marriages that appear healthy, and since few cheaters are "admitted cheater" as expecting cheaters to admit to cheating is a fool's errand, some level of skepticism is reasonable when drawing up marital boundaries. As I said in a previous post, the two things that I hear the most after an affair are "I never meant for it to happen", and "I never thought that they were capable of doing such a thing".


----------



## Jdwino92

TRy said:


> SpinyNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> The way I look at it is if your marriage is healthy you can sleep in a room w/ an OSF and unless you're a POS you'll be faithful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SpinyNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Skepticism comes in handy when dealing w/ admitted cheaters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Since cheating often happens in marriages that appear healthy, and since few cheaters are "admitted cheater" as expecting cheaters to admit to cheating is a fool's errand, some level of skepticism is reasonable when drawing up marital boundaries. As I said in a previous post, the two things that I hear the most after an affair are "I never meant for it to happen", and "I never thought that they were capable of doing such a thing".
Click to expand...

I’m basically somewhere in between his perspective and yours lol.


----------



## SpinyNorman

TRy said:


> Since cheating often happens in marriages that appear healthy, and since few cheaters are "admitted cheater" as expecting cheaters to admit to cheating is a fool's errand, some level of skepticism is reasonable when drawing up marital boundaries. As I said in a previous post, the two things that I hear the most after an affair are *"I never meant for it to happen"*, and "I never thought that they were capable of doing such a thing".


I meant you should be skeptical about the bolded part. I think it is often said b/c it sounds better than "I consciously decided to be duplicitous and selfish". 

Unless skepticism is reserved for people who aren't admitted cheaters.


----------



## SpinyNorman

Jdwino92 said:


> One last thing , I also was defensive because instead of the focus of this thread being helping me to understand all of the nuance and different perspectives behind all of this, it felt like to focus wa shifted to people attacking my character and assuming to know everything about me and my intentions and love for my wife. I GET that I came here asking for opinions but I don’t think it’s unreasonable on my part that I was expecting thoughtful responses about the subject at hand and not a slew of people telling me I was going to be divorced in less than a year and the assuredness by which the claims were made.


I admire you for standing in the center of the ring and replying to all posters. If nothing else it took a lot of typing. I once got a PM from a TS who said he was sorry he'd posted here for similar reasons and was never heard from again.

Assuredness is how you one-up your fellow know-it-alls. I once got in an argument w/ somebody here who said he KNEW when people were cheating, so I looked up his username and the first post of his I looked at he was insisting the TS's wife was cheating and TS insisted she was not. I didn't want to thread-jack that thread, but since you're discussing the meta-subject I thought you wouldn't mind.


> The friendship with this woman is not my highest concern, it’s the IDEA that being married automatically means I have to view all women as potential traps to the degree of not being able to have any form of friendship with a woman period outside of my wife. And also the IDEA that just because something upsets my wife that I should just always give her what she asks or demands of me. As I expressed earlier, my wife takes no regard for any of my thoughts or feelings as she chooses to cosleep with the children, to homeschool our children, and she’s equally controlling of what male friends I have too I would say. My wife isn’t some victim of my oppression finally putting her foot down. My wife gets her way 95% of the time. I’ve explained this in more detail throughout the thread.


Yes. Let her start dictating your life and she is likely to make a habit of it.


----------



## NextTimeAround

TRy said:


> Since cheating often happens in marriages that appear healthy, and since few cheaters are "admitted cheater" as expecting cheaters to admit to cheating is a fool's errand, some level of skepticism is reasonable when drawing up marital boundaries. As I said in a previous post, the two things that I hear the most after an affair are "I never meant for it to happen", and "I never thought that they were capable of doing such a thing".


Sometimes circumstance and proximity play a part here. My husband was working on a project that brought him in contact with westerners (mostly men) who relocated there for the project. He said that adultery with the Russian women was rife. Those men who didn't engage were the ones whose wives accompanied them.

Another example occurred after 9/11 when the Police force and fire brigade decided to assign the surviving personnel to families who lost a loved one (usually men) for mentoring and support. What turned up a couple years later were a spate of divorces by the surviving personnel who then went to marry the widows of their work buddies. I asked my husband what he thought about it. immediately he said, what do you expect? People in their 40s are still good looking and the surviving policemen and firemen were probably sharing emotions with their buddy's widow like he's never done before. 

Read the wikipedia page of Wendy Deng, Rupert Murdoch's third wife. She got over to the US thanks to an American who opened their home to her so she could attend an American university. A year is barely over before she is having an affair with the husband of the house. The wife put her out. The husband followed her; got a divorce; married her and as soon as she got her green card she separated from that old geezer and after a while finally divorced him. After reading that and some other situations, I decided that if opening my home to strangers is the only way to do charity, well, it just ain't going to happen.

I used to be that all or nothing type person. That someone should be able to withstand those siren calls to do the right thing. But I've decided now it's not worth it. For anyone who tells me that if your husband wants to cheat, he will, ok, maybe I can't stop it but I'm not going to tempt him; send him mixed messages and I'm not going to make it easy for him either.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

SpinyNorman said:


> I'd much rather be cheated on than die in a car wreck, but almost every day I get in my car. Please talk me out of my insanity!
> 
> You can try to lead a 100% risk free life, but it's impossible. A 100% joy-free life, however, is easily attained along the way.


 Ridiculous reply. We're not talking about bungee jumping or skydiving or even driving your car. We're talking about something that doesn't "need" to happen and presents problems as often as it doesn't, and you're proposing to take a risk solely for the purpose of taking a risk. Stakes are plenty high as well. If you wreck your car you don't destroy your marriage and your family.
"You can try to lead a 100% risk free life ..." If you even had half a clue as to who you're replying to you would know the absurdity of this comment, but you don't so you get a pass.


----------



## SpinyNorman

Rubix Cubed said:


> Ridiculous reply. We're not talking about bungee jumping or skydiving or even driving your car. We're talking about something that doesn't "need" to happen and presents problems as often as it doesn't, and you're proposing to take a risk solely for the purpose of taking a risk.


So having a friend is taking a risk for risk's sake but bungee jumping is not. I don't know what to say to that. As for "presents problems as often as it doesn't" I haven't seen any data on that. A point I didn't bother to make the first time is, simply saying no will prevent an affair no matter what other "risks" I've taken, whereas many people in car wrecks really were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.


> Stakes are plenty high as well. If you wreck your car you don't destroy your marriage and your family.


Actually, non-fatal car crashes have destroyed marriages and families. In some cases the survivor really isn't the same person any more.


> "You can try to lead a 100% risk free life ..." If you even had half a clue as to who you're replying to you would know the absurdity of this comment, but you don't so you get a pass.


This being the internet we're all above average, so I factored that in.


----------



## Jdwino92

SpinyNorman said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> One last thing , I also was defensive because instead of the focus of this thread being helping me to understand all of the nuance and different perspectives behind all of this, it felt like to focus wa shifted to people attacking my character and assuming to know everything about me and my intentions and love for my wife. I GET that I came here asking for opinions but I don’t think it’s unreasonable on my part that I was expecting thoughtful responses about the subject at hand and not a slew of people telling me I was going to be divorced in less than a year and the assuredness by which the claims were made.
> 
> 
> 
> I admire you for standing in the center of the ring and replying to all posters. If nothing else it took a lot of typing. I once got a PM from a TS who said he was sorry he'd posted here for similar reasons and was never heard from again.
> 
> Assuredness is how you one-up your fellow know-it-alls. I once got in an argument w/ somebody here who said he KNEW when people were cheating, so I looked up his username and the first post of his I looked at he was insisting the TS's wife was cheating and TS insisted she was not. I didn't want to thread-jack that thread, but since you're discussing the meta-subject I thought you wouldn't mind.
> 
> 
> 
> The friendship with this woman is not my highest concern, it’s the IDEA that being married automatically means I have to view all women as potential traps to the degree of not being able to have any form of friendship with a woman period outside of my wife. And also the IDEA that just because something upsets my wife that I should just always give her what she asks or demands of me. As I expressed earlier, my wife takes no regard for any of my thoughts or feelings as she chooses to cosleep with the children, to homeschool our children, and she’s equally controlling of what male friends I have too I would say. My wife isn’t some victim of my oppression finally putting her foot down. My wife gets her way 95% of the time. I’ve explained this in more detail throughout the thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes. Let her start dictating your life and she is likely to make a habit of it.
Click to expand...

I think people, in general not just here, don’t understand my desire for discourse. Further they view being argumentative as a bad thing. I view them as the essential tools for discerning truth. That’s why free speech is so important as well. Discourse/debate is the scientific method for ideas. I think I’ve demonstrated here that I’m completely open to having my mind changed, people simly dislike my criteria/process for doing so. It’s called having integrity of the mind. And the wider net you cast (more people you talk to), generally, the clearer picture of truth you can assemble. 

But I guess our society, no humanity, is so driven by nature and uncontrollable desires of the flesh that we can’t talk to people of the opposite sex. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## TRy

Jdwino92 said:


> I think people, in general not just here, don’t understand my desire for discourse. Further they view being argumentative as a bad thing. I view them as the essential tools for discerning truth. That’s why free speech is so important as well. Discourse/debate is the scientific method for ideas. I think I’ve demonstrated here that I’m completely open to having my mind changed, people simly dislike my criteria/process for doing so. It’s called having integrity of the mind. And the wider net you cast (more people you talk to), generally, the clearer picture of truth you can assemble.


You do not need to be argumentative when you discuss something. Being argumentative is a "bad thing" because it reduces participation by others since many find it unnecessarily unpleasant. This is great for a debate class where the goal is winning, but it is not optimal in discern the truth. 



Jdwino92 said:


> But I guess our society, no humanity, is so driven by nature and uncontrollable desires of the flesh that we can’t talk to people of the opposite sex. 🤷‍♂️


This is a straw man argument since no one is asking you to not "talk to people of the opposite sex". What we are asking you to do is to respect your wife when her gut tells her something about an unmarried woman that she is not adept enough to verbalize. On the rare occasions that my wife has asked me to back off concerning another woman, I do so without question. I do this to reconfirm to her that she is first in my life, and because I trust her not to do this in a careless manner, without concern for me as a person. It goes the same in reverse situations. This attitude toward each other may not be the only reason that we have been happily married so long, but it is one of the important factors.


----------



## Jdwino92

TRy said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think people, in general not just here, don’t understand my desire for discourse. Further they view being argumentative as a bad thing. I view them as the essential tools for discerning truth. That’s why free speech is so important as well. Discourse/debate is the scientific method for ideas. I think I’ve demonstrated here that I’m completely open to having my mind changed, people simly dislike my criteria/process for doing so. It’s called having integrity of the mind. And the wider net you cast (more people you talk to), generally, the clearer picture of truth you can assemble.
> 
> 
> 
> You do not need to be argumentative when you discuss something. Being argumentative is a "bad thing" because it reduces participation by others since many find it unnecessarily unpleasant. This is great for a debate class where the goal is winning, but it is not optimal in discern the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But I guess our society, no humanity, is so driven by nature and uncontrollable desires of the flesh that we can’t talk to people of the opposite sex. 🤷‍♂️
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is a straw man argument since no one is asking you to not "talk to people of the opposite sex". What we are asking you to do is to respect your wife when her gut tells her something about an unmarried woman that she is not adept enough to verbalize. On the rare occasions that my wife has asked me to back off concerning another woman, I do so without question. I do this to reconfirm to her that she is first in my life, and because I trust her not to do this in a careless manner, without concern for me as a person. It goes the same in reverse situations. This attitude toward each other may not be the only reason that we have been happily married so long, but it is one of the important factors.
Click to expand...

I disagree, sorry. This thread took a turn for the worse not because I was argumentative but because I was defensive because I was dealing with a horde of pretty hostile people. 

There’s a balance to being argumentative obviously and it pays to be civil as possible, but there’s absolutely nothing wrong with questioning people’s answers and perspectives. It’s the only way to ensure you are thinking clearly and rationally. 

I was being facetious with my comment about talking to women. I know what you are saying. I understand the underlying concerns , even if I disagree with the perspective you have of how someone ought to respond in such a situation.


----------



## Rowan

Jdwino92 said:


> *I think people, in general not just here, don’t understand my desire for discourse.* Further they view being argumentative as a bad thing. I view them as the essential tools for discerning truth. That’s why free speech is so important as well. Discourse/debate is the scientific method for ideas. I think I’ve demonstrated here that I’m completely open to having my mind changed, people simly dislike my criteria/process for doing so. It’s called having integrity of the mind. And the wider net you cast (more people you talk to), generally, the clearer picture of truth you can assemble.



What you're basically saying here, OP, is that spirited discourse is an important emotional need for you. 

Allowing someone of the opposite sex, who is not your wife, to meet your important emotional needs can be a dangerous habit. Your wife cannot meet this need for you. But this other woman can. You've said yourself, that this other woman is superior to your wife in this way - she's more logical, capable of keeping up with you, she "gets" you in a way that your wife does not, can not. And, whether you see it or not, that is where the danger starts. You've already started comparing your wife to this other woman, and your wife is coming up short. The danger is that you may begin to broaden the field of comparison, so that your wife starts to seem less logical, less intelligent, less capable of keeping up with you, less understanding of your needs, less able to meet your needs, as time passes. The other woman begins to look more and more like what's good for you, while your wife begins to look less and less like someone you should be trapped in a marriage with. 

So, you've said this particular friend is unattractive to you and an affair just couldn't happen with this particular woman. Okay. But would we maybe be having a different conversation if she were attractive to you? Say this unattractive female friend of yours invites her sister to join the group. The sister is equally gifted in spirited political discourse, but unlike your female friend, the sister is smokin' hot. So, because you don't have established boundaries that are designed to keep your marriage safe, you start PMing the sister - just for that discourse that's so important to you. But, along the way you realize that she's gorgeous, she's sexually appealing, she gets you and stimulates you in a way that your wife can't. Your wife looks even less appealing, while your new friend's attractiveness to you grows. Your friend is the complete package! Your wife doesn't understand you, she's boring, she can't keep up with you intellectually, and she's just trying to keep you from talking to your new friend because she's irrational and jealous. She's not smart enough to understand the harmless but deep connection between you two. She just doesn't want you to have your freedom or be able to have any fun. And, while you love her, really, you're suddenly not sure if you were ever really _in love_ with your wife...

That's how affairs start. They usually don't start with an intention to have an affair. Rather, they start with weak boundaries that aren't designed to protect your marriage. Those weak boundaries get pushed a tiny bit further out, a little at a time, without you ever really even noticing. And when you do notice, you're able to justify it. _It was just a joke that didn't mean anything. It's just a little harmless flirtation. It was just dinner and a few drinks that didn't really mean anything. It was just a white lie really. I'm not hiding it, really, it's just none of my wife's business. Don't I deserve something that makes me happy for once? Don't I deserve my privacy? It was just a harmless kiss, but it won't happen again. Sex was a mistake, but I'll never do it again. My wife would just be hurt if she knew, so I'll keep it from her to protect her. My wife will never find out, so what's the harm in being happy?_ That's why good boundaries are important. They help you to prevent yourself from forming attachments that can make your spouse seem like the wrong choice for you in comparison with any new opposite sex friends you might make. And you, sir, don't have great boundaries. At all. 

OP, I strongly suggest that you take a look at the books His Needs, Her Needs and Lovebusters, both by W. Harley. You need to understand your own emotional needs, as well as your wife's, and how to create a marriage that meets those needs for one another, while also avoiding doing things that destroy love.


----------



## Happilyunhappilymarried

Hi There,

I have read the post and i feel there is lack of trust and insecurity your wife is facing. I feel the same at times.
I suggest to have a deep conversation and make her understand and win over her insecurities. This is what my husband and I have and do when such situations arise.
I don't believe breaking the friendship with the person is a solution. In future, you might come across these kind of situations again. Every now and then you cannot afford to lose friendship when you and the other person knows that its purely friendship or work related relation. 

You need to sit together, and of required have a conversation all three together if you feel its worth doing this inorder to continue with this friendship. 

All the best.


----------



## NextTimeAround

> So, you've said this particular friend is unattractive to you and an affair just couldn't happen with this particular woman.


Men will always SAY "she's not that attractive" or "I don't even like her ALL that much." But their actions, choices, decisions, behaviors say differently. 

Even my husband said the same things about his "friend."


----------



## UndecidedinNY

If you're willing to fight with your wife over keeping this friendship, you are already too attached to this other woman.


----------



## Married but Happy

UndecidedinNY said:


> If you're willing to fight with your wife over keeping this friendship, you are already too attached to this other woman.


I think this is a nonsense statement.


----------



## Easydoesit

UndecidedinNY said:


> If you're willing to fight with your wife over keeping this friendship, you are already too attached to this other woman.


I agree


----------



## NextTimeAround

UndecidedinNY said:


> If you're willing to fight with your wife over keeping this friendship, you are already too attached to this other woman.


What I find interesting is people who fight on the basis of principle and not substance. For example, my husband's "friend" was someone he only knew 3 months longer than he knew me. That's hardly jettisoning a lifetime friend.

With my exH, the woman was also someone that he had known for long but she was married to a long time friend. 

My sister upset me by befriending a guy who stalked me after I broke up with him. Yes, she did the "I can be friends with whomever the hell I want" routine. I am cautious around her these days. She has the nerve to tell me that, yeah, he is needy and a pain in the ass, like what, that kind ex post facto validation is going to make me feel good about her choices?


----------



## Adelais

Jdwino92 said:


> I think people, in general not just here, don’t understand my desire for discourse. Further they view being argumentative as a bad thing. I view them as the essential tools for discerning truth. That’s why free speech is so important as well. Discourse/debate is the scientific method for ideas. I think I’ve demonstrated here that I’m completely open to having my mind changed, people simly dislike my criteria/process for doing so. It’s called having integrity of the mind. And the wider net you cast (more people you talk to), generally, the clearer picture of truth you can assemble.
> 
> But I guess our society, no humanity, is so driven by nature and uncontrollable desires of the flesh that we can’t talk to people of the opposite sex. 🤷‍♂️


Debate isn't appropriate all the time in everyday life. Most people tire fairly quickly of constant argumentation.

Even in debate there is a set number of rounds, and then the winner is voted upon by the judges. (I have judged Lincoln Douglas Debates several times myself.)

https://www.speechanddebate.org/wp-content/uploads/Intro_to_LD.J.Roberts.7.5.27.pdf (see page 4-6)

If one set of debaters just keeps repeating the same statements over and over, and without any new arguments or documentation to back their arguments, it is counted against them and their debate ends up being weaker than their opponent.

The folks here have given you many, many reasons for not continuing on the road you are on. All you do is keep saying the same things: you don't agree that a vagina is a reason for you to not be close friends with a woman.

Maybe it is time you grow up, and stop being an eternal high school debater, and start being a husband.


----------



## The Middleman

Araucaria said:


> Maybe it is time you grow up, and stop being an eternal high school debater, and start being a husband.


... and this is why his wife is “loosing it” with him. I predict that one day his wife will either give him the ultimatum “her or me” ... or she will do what I would do under the circumstances: go to the woman and tell her to get the **** out of their lives and then go to everyone in the family and tell them about his behavior.


----------



## Jdwino92

Araucaria said:


> Jdwino92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think people, in general not just here, don’t understand my desire for discourse. Further they view being argumentative as a bad thing. I view them as the essential tools for discerning truth. That’s why free speech is so important as well. Discourse/debate is the scientific method for ideas. I think I’ve demonstrated here that I’m completely open to having my mind changed, people simly dislike my criteria/process for doing so. It’s called having integrity of the mind. And the wider net you cast (more people you talk to), generally, the clearer picture of truth you can assemble.
> 
> But I guess our society, no humanity, is so driven by nature and uncontrollable desires of the flesh that we can’t talk to people of the opposite sex. 🤷‍♂️
> 
> 
> 
> Debate isn't appropriate all the time in everyday life. Most people tire fairly quickly of constant argumentation.
> 
> Even in debate there is a set number of rounds, and then the winner is voted upon by the judges. (I have judged Lincoln Douglas Debates several times myself.)
> 
> https://www.speechanddebate.org/wp-content/uploads/Intro_to_LD.J.Roberts.7.5.27.pdf (see page 4-6)
> 
> If one set of debaters just keeps repeating the same statements over and over, and without any new arguments or documentation to back their arguments, it is counted against them and their debate ends up being weaker than their opponent.
> 
> The folks here have given you many, many reasons for not continuing on the road you are on. All you do is keep saying the same things: you don't agree that a vagina is a reason for you to not be close friends with a woman.
> 
> Maybe it is time you grow up, and stop being an eternal high school debater, and start being a husband.
Click to expand...

Lincoln Douglas is first of all merely One style of debate and by no means objectively the best. 

Secondly that’s formal debate and something I enjoy to do but obviously I’m going going to engage strangers on the internet in formal debate. 

Thirdly, if you knew anything about debate you’d know just citing points or opinions isn’t the same as having a good argument. A good argument has a foundation of logic and empirical proof. People here just stating their opinions and personal experiences don’t count as arguments. In fact one of the most common mistakes made in debate is the use of anecdotal evidence. 

You are right that most people don’t bother in discourse out in inpatience. THIS IS NOT A VIRTUE. People have become weak minded, and abandoned logic and reason, and scientific reality. 

This doesn’t mean everything should be or can be debated. I don’t debate with my wife over what we are having for dinner or where we are taking our next vacation. I do debate/argue against people who claim things I find to be untrue, or things that are too big of a claim to make without some establishing a burden of proof. 

Speech and Debate weren’t something created as fun hobbies for students. It is the formal training in HOW TO THINK and HOW TO SPEAK, and also the basis for how to understand the world.


----------



## Jdwino92

I’ve said plenty more than just the “vagina” response. But 30 ish pages is too much for people to read these days, it’s easier to read a few posts , make an uninformed and emotionally charged judgement and cling to it irrationally. 

Where as anyone who reads the whole post will see that when people made GOOD arguments and backed them up, I altered my stance and my wife and I have talked and have worked out a lot of our problems. She’s happy, this past week I have the other woman short non conversational replies to some pms where she sent me some videos. We’re fine. It’s hilarious though how bitter some people are, still hurt from past relationships and projecting their problems onto me.


----------



## brooklynAnn

This is not about debate, the right to have OSF, freedom of speech on any other nonsense to justify your actions. Anyone can create an argument to justify their position. HOWEVER, you seem unable, unwilling or too emotionally immature to understand that the path you are on leads to only one thing....an emotional affair(you are already in it, all abit maybe one sided) or a full blown affair.

You are a married man and as such, act like one.


----------



## Jdwino92

brooklynAnn said:


> This is not about debate, the right to have OSF, freedom of speech on any other nonsense to justify your actions. Anyone can create an argument to justify their position. HOWEVER, you seem unable, unwilling or too emotionally immature to understand that the path you are on leads to only one thing....an emotional affair(you are already in it, all abit maybe one sided) or a full blown affair.
> 
> You are a married man and as such, act like one.



That’s an opinion. 

If you want me to believe I’m in an emotional affair, show me where I’m wrong.


----------



## SpinyNorman

NextTimeAround said:


> Sometimes circumstance and proximity play a part here. My husband was working on a project that brought him in contact with westerners (mostly men) who relocated there for the project. He said that adultery with the Russian women was rife. Those men who didn't engage were the ones whose wives accompanied them.


Chicken and the egg. I don't cheat so I'd have arm-twisted the spouse to come along, while any looking for a cheating opportunity would likely have done the opposite.


----------



## SpinyNorman

NextTimeAround said:


> Men will always SAY "she's not that attractive" or "I don't even like her ALL that much." But their actions, choices, decisions, behaviors say differently.
> 
> Even my husband said the same things about his "friend."


So if your husband screwed up it's just inconceivable any of us could do right. 

I don't even always say a friend is unattractive, some are and some are not. It really doesn't make a difference.


----------



## SpinyNorman

UndecidedinNY said:


> If you're willing to fight with your wife over keeping this friendship, you are already too attached to this other woman.


Nice Catch-22.


----------



## Thor

You can be right, or you can be married. That ain't no opinion, that's a fact. When your spouse is upset about your relationship with someone of the opposite sex there is no debating them to the correct position. That correct position being merely your *opinion* that it is ok to continue that relationship....

Are you in an emotional affair now or are you just being an argumentative prick with your wife? *It doesn't matter*. See: Love Busters.

Really if you had wanted scientific proof you would have asked certified researchers with peer reviewed published studies, but instead you came to a public forum and asked a bunch of strangers what they *thought* you should do. If you came here to argue and get us wound up, shame on you. It seems that is all you really want to do, argue with people here who answered the question you asked way back in your first post. If you're the same way with your wife, go back and re-read the first sentence of this post.


----------



## back2whoiwas

I hope I am right by assuming that you want to remain married. You mentioned your wife having trust issues. And that her mother and grandmother both had experienced the pain of infidelity on the part of their spouses. It could be bad enough if you only spoke to this woman once in a while. But often?! Do you care to seek to be your wife's Knight in shining armour? Or, that she could start to see you as a Dud in tin foil? Or, could it be(and I PRAY this is not the case)that your wife has a tendency toward choosing men who are--eventually--unfaithful? Meaning yourself? If you're telling the truth, I believe that you have been faithful up until now. P-L-E-A-S-E don't be deceived!

Jeremiah 17:9 states: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" People generally rationalize wrongdoing. Do you WANT to prove her right? Think about it this way. The enemy, Satan, is NOT going to come to bring to you a woman trying to come on to you(whether she could be from the past or a total stranger). He could choose to use a rather 'seemingly' innocent friendship. And, all it would take might be her breaking up with her boyfriend. And wanting a shoulder to 'lean' on. Now that YOU have invested too much time in her(outside your marriage). 

If you TRULY love your wife, you will be sensitive to her feelings and respect them. It doesn't mean that you would actually AGREE with her...at first. For your own peace of mind, and the protection over your home(after all, biblically speaking, you are the "Husband"=House band)! Part of being "house band" is, safeguarding your marriage defensively. Not OFFENSIVELY. I pray that the Holy Spirit will soften your heart to do the right thing. Blessings to you in preserving your marriage!


----------



## Mrs.Sav

Araucaria said:


> Debate isn't appropriate all the time in everyday life. Most people tire fairly quickly of constant argumentation.
> 
> Even in debate there is a set number of rounds, and then the winner is voted upon by the judges. (I have judged Lincoln Douglas Debates several times myself.)
> 
> https://www.speechanddebate.org/wp-content/uploads/Intro_to_LD.J.Roberts.7.5.27.pdf (see page 4-6)
> 
> If one set of debaters just keeps repeating the same statements over and over, and without any new arguments or documentation to back their arguments, it is counted against them and their debate ends up being weaker than their opponent.
> 
> The folks here have given you many, many reasons for not continuing on the road you are on. All you do is keep saying the same things: you don't agree that a vagina is a reason for you to not be close friends with a woman.
> 
> *Maybe it is time you grow up, and stop being an eternal high school debater, and start being a husband*.





Thor said:


> *You can be right, or you can be married. That ain't no opinion, that's a fact. When your spouse is upset about your relationship with someone of the opposite sex there is no debating them to the correct position. That correct position being merely your opinion that it is ok to continue that relationship....
> 
> Are you in an emotional affair now or are you just being an argumentative prick with your wife? It doesn't matter. See: Love Busters.
> 
> Really if you had wanted scientific proof you would have asked certified researchers with peer reviewed published studies, but instead you came to a public forum and asked a bunch of strangers what they thought you should do. If you came here to argue and get us wound up, shame on you. It seems that is all you really want to do, argue with people here who answered the question you asked way back in your first post. If you're the same way with your wife, go back and re-read the first sentence of this post.*


:iagree:
That about sums it up. I would give these a thousand likes if I could.


----------

