# is it that bad?



## Dadda (Dec 3, 2017)

Greetings All,


This is my first post so please bare with me a bit. Here goes...


I love my gf a lot. In in my mind "she's the one". However, we have been fighting a lot lately (a lot of times warranted but many times it seems unwarranted). She grew up in an abusive household and still has some baggage from it but this was never a problem for me as I took her for who she was; the good and the bad. I have definitely made mistakes but had no outside relations or anything as I truly love and respect her. My mistakes in the past have included: 1) being messy (actively working on this), 2) not keeping my word (100% of the time) and 3) not maintaining "appropriate" boundaries with women.

The 3rd is arguably the biggest issue of all as it admittedly has caused her to feel as if there is a degree of double standards there. I honestly have nothing to hide, I am not into technology-I neither strive to possess the latest device nor do i love to be on my devices 24/7, she has password to my phone and I have hers - no biggy. 5 yrs ago I had a bad car accident and my car was totalled. My friend's older sister was the only one who was able to pick me up and take me home-something I feel forever indebted to her for. This friends sister is an attractive lady however my respect for her is based solely on her work ethic and selflessness. Every now and again we interact because of the whole dynamic with her brother being my friend etc. So one friday night after an early night out on the town i message her asking her what else is going on because I was not quite ready to turn it in. She said she was going to bed and we said our good nights. The following morning she sends me a wats app message saying good morning. I send her a a message expressing my astonishment as to how long she slept and also sent a "kiss" emoticon because usually when we greet each other we hug and give a peck on the cheek.(in most socio-economic circles in this county this is totally acceptable).

I do not close this convo (as I said i have nothing to hide) and later in the day her brother actually shows up at my house, we watch a soccer match and by the end of the soccer match i go into my bedroom to get my phone so I could show my friend some pictures of some items relating to a business deal i am currently trying to broker. However, i notice there was a new wats app message; my gf had taken a screen shot of the convo with my friends sister (the good morning message etc) and sent it to herself using my phone. In short - she was pissed! Did not want to talk to me (i told her when we calm down I want to talk to her) and did not want me to touch her. I have known this lady for most of my life (longer than I've known my SO) and I have even been open about the respect I have for this lady. I know she is critical of my realtionship with this lady in general but how will i ultimately convince her that she really has notthing to worry about. 

To add a bit more of context: my SO has bpd and had a txing session with her shrink on that same afternoon so the chain of events just is not in my favor. At the same time i feel as though the openess we shared will coem under pressure now not because she saw this message but because I am now very curious why she wanted to "search my phone" in the first place. 

That said, is this text between my friend and my sister that bad?


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## Bonkers (Nov 26, 2017)

Not seeing a problem with the text. 

Your GF seems rather high maintenance


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Dadda said:


> My SO has bpd.... In in my mind "she's the one."


Dadda, are you sure about her being "the one"? Typically, a person diagnosed with full-blown BPD has the emotional development of a four year old. This means she needs to learn all those emotional skills that the rest of us learned in childhood.

These missing skills include how to do self soothing, how to regulate all of her emotions, how to avoid black-white thinking by tolerating strong mixed feelings, how to trust, how to intellectually challenge intense feelings instead of accepting them as self-evident "facts," and how to stay aware of the present instead of escaping through daydreams into the past and future. Absent those skills, she must continue to rely on the primitive ego defenses used by young children: projection, denial, temper tantrums, magical thinking, and black-white thinking.



> However, we have been fighting a lot lately (a lot of times warranted but many times it seems unwarranted).


Absent years of intensive therapy (e.g., DBT or CBT), the fighting likely will get much worse. The reason for the increased fighting is the position of the BPDer's two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- at the opposite ends of the _very same_ spectrum. This means you are always in a lose/lose situation because, as you back away from one fear to avoid triggering it, you will start triggering the fear at the other end of that same spectrum.

Hence, as you move close to a BPDer to comfort her and assure her of your love, you will start triggering her engulfment fear, making her feel like she's being suffocated and controlled by you. Yet, as you back away to give her breathing space, you will find that you've started triggering her abandonment fear. And, sadly, there is no midpoints solution (between "too close" and "too far away") where you can safely stand to avoid triggering the two fears. I know because I foolishly spent 15 years searching for that Goldilocks position, which simply does not exist. 



> I feel as though the openness we shared will come under pressure now not because she saw this message but because I am now very curious why she wanted to "search my phone" in the first place.


If she has BPD, the reason for searching your phone is that a BPDer has an abandonment fear so great that she will see abandonment threats where they don't even exist. This is why _"Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment"_ is one of the nine defining traits for BPD. On top of that, a BPDer also is prone to paranoia, i.e., overblown fears over harmless actions. This is why _"Having stress-related paranoid thoughts"_ is another one of the nine defining traits for a pattern of BPD behavior.



> That said, is this text between my friend and my sister that bad?


Why would it matter? If your GF is a BPDer, her abandonment and engulfment fears are so strong that they will regularly generate very intense feelings. Those feelings are so strong that they will distort her perceptions of your intentions and motivations. The result is that she will overreact to so many harmless actions/comments that having one more misunderstanding on her lengthy list is not going to matter. 

Moreover, even if you sit perfectly still in a room with her and don't say a thing -- and don't even move a muscle -- she will subconsciously project her bad thoughts and hurtful feelings onto you. Her subconscious will do this to protect her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. The result is that, at a conscious level, she will be absolutely convinced that the bad thought or hurtful feeling is coming from YOU. So be prepared for that. And be prepared for her keeping a lengthy mental list of your every infraction (real or imagined). A BPDer will not hesitate to pull out that entire list during the most minor of arguments to prove that she is "The Victim," always "The Victim."


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## Dadda (Dec 3, 2017)

Yea Bonkers, no harm meant but hey. Thanks for the support.


Uptown, you know a lot. It is like you are in this relationship. The past never goes away and the future almost has a grim outlook. 


To add a bit more of context: This Bpd thing is a new development (within the last month) and we have only been living together for a year and change. But as you rightly said all negatives will be pooled together for any particular infraction.

It is just so sad to me and I feel between a rock and a hard place. She is not from my country and now lives and works in my country and of course she has no friends in my country mainly due to her "intensity" (atleast that's what i believe). I am thinking to support her more though because the bpd is new for both of us. I have read bpd spouse coping literature online since making this post and I am prepared to give it a shot. As Uptown and the literature said though the fighting will get worse so let's see. Thanks again....really.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Dadda said:


> To add a bit more of context: my SO has bpd and had a txing session with her shrink on that same afternoon so the chain of events just is not in my favor.


Good lord, who has a freakin' SHRINK on speed dial, for starters? That's ENOUGH to make a sane person run for the hills.

Add on the fact that she's BPD (whether that's Bipolar Disorder or Borderline Personality Disorder - DOESN'T matter) and my advice is to run like all the demons in Hell are after you.

After you've run for several hours and can't run anymore, flag down the next car or bus or bookmobile and put MORE miles between you.

Do NOT stop until you've reached the ocean and can go no more.

Then continue North into Canada or Alaska. Doesn't matter.


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## Dadda (Dec 3, 2017)

This is Dadda's gf sharing her side of the story:

This will be long as I want to get out a lot of detail.

I think things go back to me some time ago asking my bf why he used private browsers. He just pointed out that I was doing the* same. That's true, I admitted to him that I did that only when reading TAM because I didn't want him to know anything about my use or even the name of the site. It was childish of me because I did it to get back at him for what I felt was him being very critical of TAM when I first started talking about it and how instrumental I found it.*

I stopped using private browsers and brought it up again that I wasn't comfortable with his continued use. I told him yes it makes me suspicious, yes I feel like we should have each other's passwords, yes I feel it should be ok to look if suspicious, that I leave everything open to him however he always logs off his accounts before leaving the PC. Ultimately he said he needed some level of privacy but agreed to be more open and stop using private.*

I took his criticism of TAM very personally because I thought it was a great resource, and it was through reading others' stories I was able to get insight into what healthy relationships look like (Dadda eventually said that TAM use was a "net-positive" thing after I repeatedly brought up that I was getting resentful about his criticism). My parents were terrible examples and his not so great either. Most importantly, it was through TAM I really realized how bad my views on male/female boundaries were.

One incident in particular, in 2015 when Dadda and I were still living apart, I asked his permission to have my ex who was coming to town, to stay over in my extra room. When my bf exploded my response was really bad. I thought "what nerve, how can he be so controlling?" It was a 3-bed apartment and had another female roommate, I would never do anything disrespectful to Dadda especially in front of her. I had already spoken to her and gotten her permission too. My strong, independent lady cap felt "well screw Dadda then, I'd rather we break up than let a man think he can control me". This is how deluded I was, just because I knew there was nothing going on between my ex and I. I couldn't understand why he couldn't just trust me, and this was the first time I saw my bf express such anger. When he exploded, yes I saw my father exploding, I saw someone who wanted to control me. In the end I thought about it and told him that I thought he was unreasonable, I would never jeopardize our relationship nevertheless I would comply only because I believe that spouses should not do certain things just on the basis that their partner has expressed that it makes them unhappy."

Smh. Folks, I have come very far from that naive person who had no true appreciation for serious, healthy relationships. I readily admit I slipped up recently and went out to lunch alone with a male co-worker. I thought it would be enough that I told my Dadda the same day, and he will tell you that while his tone was more quiet after I shared that info, he didn't address it and make it clear that he wasn't comfortable with it. He brought it up some time after and said he was not ok with it and that was a wake up call for me. I immediately apologized and said 'you know what, you're absolutely right and I wouldn't feel comfortable if you did the same. I thanked him for expressing that and reassured him that he had a duty to state his boundaries without feeling the need to justify them. I said i didn't know what I was thinking considering how far I've come and all I've seen on TAM but that it would never happen again.

Through various conversations with Dadda, I've expressed an increasingly serious approach to poor boundaries. I've apologised profusely for that ex incident years ago, I thanked Dadda for standing up to me then and expressed how much I view that experience as one that set a precedent for us. I've assured him that I completely understand why he has a hard trust trusting me 100% after that as my views were so erroneous then. In addition, I cheated in my last relationship, followed typical cheater script, my ex rug swept and that was just such a tumultuous situation. I told my bf I needed him to maintain strong boundaries with me, I needed to know he was comfortable checking my phone/fb/email if he ever felt suspicious. I needed to know he would never tolerate cheating from me, that any misstep would be addressed swiftly. And I asked the same of him. I need transparency from him too.

My bf is a cool chap who was one of the popular guys in high school. He's extremely easy going and funny - when he's cool with you. Otherwise he has a more solemn, macho vibe. He will tell you that like his dog, he's not good with male strangers particularly. He gets along very well with women and developed a few very close friendships with some from high school days. This lady (Bonnie) he's known through his best friend since high school. They grew up together and when I observed Dadda/Bonnie's interactions, I sensed she had a crush on him. I shared my feelings with Dadda and he denied it although he admitted she's made comments to the effect that she would date him if not for x,y,z. In the beginning when I moved in, she was one of two of his female friends that he spoke about a lot (at least it seemed often to me). I pointed out to him that he brought her up a lot and I found it annoying, he said he didn't realize it. Whenever Dadda spoke about her, it was usually him expressing a bit of admiration at something she did/said. For example, when Bonnie has embarrassed her exes when they acted "weak" on occasion. Dadda is impressed by strong assertive women like his moms. Bonny is aggressive with men and balsy. We've talked about how Bonnie herself has boundary issues with men, she's always had frequent short relationships with men and is a bit too aggressive as a woman in general. On one occasion driving home with Dadda's best friend's/Bonnie's mother and father, the father referred to Bonnie as my bf's wife, jokingly. I felt that was confirmation that I was not the only one who could tell there was some energy between the two of them and the father has likely observed this over years of them interacting.*

Not long after my lunch incident, I viewed my bfs WhatsApp messages and noticed him/Bonnie referring to each other as hun. Not just him, yes her too. I was not happy with this. I brought it up in the middle of a conversation and I can't remember exactly what I asked but something to the effect of if he ever referred to women as hun (or maybe I asked he ever used certain pet names) in conversation and he denied it. I asked again if he was sure and he denied. I pointed to this incident I had witnessed and he backtracked and couldn't deny what I said I saw. He said yes and explained that culturally "hun" is short for honey and common among men and women. I asked whether he'd be comfortable with me allowing men to refer to me that way,* he says no but he wouldn't just use it with any woman blah blah blah. I said he shouldn't be trying to justify it and that it would've been bad if I'd responded that way when he pointed out my solo lunch incident. He agreed and said wouldn't happen again. Note that I moved to his town and have been here for over a year, not once have I heard anyone use "hun" with each other, even among my coworkers. It's not like this is the southern states where it's common.

Now I looked again at his WhatsApp recently and notice this convo with her where he sent kisses emoji. I am not ok with my bf sending kisses emoji to another woman. The only question I want Dadda to answer is "would he feel ok with another man sending me kisses"? And yes people kiss over here but not nearly as often or as religiously as Dadda makes it out to seem.*

I will add that in both these WhatsApp incidents the only visible conversation with Bonnie, was the current. All previous conversation history was deleted. This time I thought to check his family group whatsapp and the convo history there went ways back. Yes this adds to my suspicious feelings.*

Yes I have my personal mental issue dealing with. I try to be self critical, Ive introduced HNHN and love languages and the drama triangle (he will tell you that he engaged grudgingly the times I've shared this info by asking him to read a chapter here and there with me and reflect), he will tell you that I make a serious effort to find solutions when we have problems, I've been urging him to look into getting us couples counseling which may be an option through his organisation as we need help working through some issues that we just can't seem to find middle ground on. I was the one who did the research and tried to admit something wasn't right with me. I found myself a bpd psychologist and I am committed to learning tools to respond better, understand what's going on with me and teach bf how to interact with me. Ive shared all of this with bf and admitted that I'm going through something very painful inside and I really really need his support and empathy now. I've gone through the whole list of symptoms with him and pointed to examples where I've displayed each. I admitted the abandonment is a big issue. I also asked that he please never use the bpd against me. I can't help but feel that he tried to do this in his OP. But yes I know my bpd could be why I'm suspicious, sigh. He also asked before I headed to my counseling session (I go weekly) if I could bring up a recent argument we had to my pyschologist and "see if she could link it to bpd, etc". So yes, earlier I did feel like he tried to blame that incident on bpd too. He sent me that message when I was on my way to the session, although I had told him we should hold off on discussing that problem until he sets up the couple's counseling (I said that as extra motivation for him to set up a session asap as he's been slow to move) as we had been going back and forth and could not come to a resolution that would not leave one person feeling misunderstood.*

So to Uptown's comment of does it matter,*

Yes it does matter. I have feelings just like he does. Despite the history with Bonnie, I've tried to be accommodating with Dadda's/her friendship and I get along well with her. He's gone out without me on many occasions when she's the only girl in their guy group and sometimes he's the one present that she's closest to. She's always the only girl in his guy group (excluding me). He's gone without me making any issues so please understand I'm not unreasonable. I just do not want to take any unnecessary risks in my relationship, I do not want to be naive and think my partner or I could never cheat, I want to minimize any possibility of that happening.

I'd like to add that Dadda's bestfriend has a long history of cheating, and is possibly still cheating on the mother of his daughter right now. In one disagreement, I threatened to inform the child's mom when Dadda spilled the beans. I told Dadda I was not comfortable with him having a friend who thought this was ok, and I couldn't believe he didn't think it was a big a deal. Dadda was not happy as he said I barely knew the mom (I had only met her >5 times), he asked me to keep quiet as this could ruin his friendship. I grudgingly agreed. Dadda went immediately to his best friend with our current incident. You can imagine I am not happy with this because I think if Dadda was more self critical, he would recognize his friend is the worst person to seek advice from considering his poor boundaries. He would recognize that obviously his best friend would agree that I was overreacting. This should not be about taking sides, this should be about healthy boundaries.


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## Dadda (Dec 3, 2017)

Uptown said:


> Hence, as you move close to a BPDer to comfort her and assure her of your love, you will start triggering her engulfment fear, making her feel like she's being suffocated and controlled by you. Yet, as you back away to give her breathing space, you will find that you've started triggering her abandonment fear. *And, sadly, there is no midpoints solution (between "too close" and "too far away") where you can safely stand to avoid triggering the two fears. I know because I foolishly spent 15 years searching for that Goldilocks position, which simply does not exist*."


Dadda's gf here again:

Admittedly I still have a lot to learn regarding bpd and how it's skewing my thinking. I respect your experience but i don't think it's fair to say there's never going to be a sustainable midpoint. I believe if I continue to make a serious effort with my Dr, I can work on maintaining stability. I believe I can have a healthy relationship, I believe I can make an excellent partner, I believe I deserve to be loved.


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## Dadda (Dec 3, 2017)

Dadda said:


> To add a bit more of context: *my SO has bpd and had a txing session with her shrink on that same afternoon so the chain of events just is not in my favor*. At the same time i feel as though the openess we shared will coem under pressure now not because she saw this message but because I am now very curious why she wanted to "search my phone" in the first place.
> 
> That said, is this text between my friend and my sister that bad?


Dadda's gf here again:

I assume you meant taxing. Every session with the doc is emotionally taxing. It's not easy facing one's demons head on. 

To the latter question in that para: I felt the need because I think it should be ok for spouses to view each other's messages should they feel the need to. I just got a strong urge to do it, and I can't explain it beyond that. Yes my bpd likely has something to do with it but so too my history and the resulting need I have to want to protect what we have. I think if you have nothing to hide, you should not fear your partner viewing your stuff.



Dadda said:


> It is just so sad to me and I feel between a rock and a hard place. *She is not from my country and now lives and works in my country and of course she has no friends in my country mainly due to her "intensity" (atleast that's what i believe)*. I am thinking to support her more though because the bpd is new for both of us. I have read bpd spouse coping literature online since making this post and I am prepared to give it a shot. As Uptown and the literature said though the fighting will get worse so let's see. Thanks again....really.


I have not yet made friends because I haven't had much opportunity to do so. My coworkers are cool but they don't really go out. The one who does, trust me she's a flake and not the best influence and Dadda knows this. While I do have many opportunities to socialize in my job through workshops and meetings, I'm almost always at least a decade younger than the people in the room. The only person my age I've met in my industry actually went to high school with Dadda. He will tell you that she's a model type of daughter with brains who demands respect. I admire her as a person and for her accomplishments, but he will also tell you that she's such a serious person, they couldn't really be friends in HS and he's lost as to who in the world her friends were/currently are. For those very reasons, I haven't been able to cultivate a social relationship with her outside of work.


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## Rhubarb (Dec 1, 2017)

The fact is different people have a different levels of suspicion and tolerance for this sort of thing. I have a strict set of rules that some might find draconian. I don't have any female friends, at least none where I'm not friends with their husbands and even then I woudn't spend alone time with them. In fact I don't spend any social time alone with other women, period. If it's for business that's a different matter, but I keep it strictly business. I also don't connect privately with women on any online sites or use phone apps to do so. This isn't because I don't trust myself, but rather it keeps my intentions clear to everyone including my wife. Again this might seem extreme to some people but it keeps everything copacetic. All this I do voluntarily. My rules are my own and I had them even before I was married.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Dadda said:


> It is just so sad to me.


There are several reasons, Dadda, why it is extremely painful and difficult to leave a BPDer. The *primary reason* is that walking away feels like you are abandoning a sick young child who, despite her periodic tantrums, dearly loves you. It feels that way because, as noted above, a BPDer typically has the emotional development of a four year old. This is why she often exhibits the purity of expressions, exuberance, and emotional intensity that otherwise are only seen in young children. Moreover, although a BPDer is able to love very intensely, it is an immature form of love that falls far short of what is required to sustain a mature adult relationship.

A *second reason* is that, whereas narcissists and sociopaths will manipulate you with deliberate lies, a BPDer usually believes most of the outrageous allegations coming out of her mouth. Because her feelings are so intense, she is absolutely convinced they MUST be correct. Moreover, that sincerity and conviction usually will be obvious to you. Hence, because you know she loves you and truly believes most of her allegations, you mistakenly assume that -- if you can only figure out what YOU are doing wrong -- you can restore the R/S to that wonderful bliss and passion you saw at the beginning.

A *third reason* -- especially for excessive caregivers like me -- is that a BPDer relationship gives us an opportunity to experience the intoxicating feeling of being the nearly perfect person who has ridden in on a white horse to save our partner from unhappiness. Unfortunately, our desire _to be needed_ far exceeds our desire _to be loved_. 

We therefore are strongly attracted to a child-like person who can project vulnerability across a crowded room. Indeed, if you ever see a Marilyn Monroe movie, you will see a BPDer woman who could project enormous vulnerability right off of a flat movie screen. This is why two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both had full-blown BPD if their biographers are correct.

A *fourth reason* is that, because a BPDer so completely mirrors the best aspects of your personality and preferences, you both mistakenly believe that you have found your "soulmate." Hence, even when you later start to question that belief intellectually, you still have to fight against the intense feeling that she is somehow perfect for you -- and is destined to be your lifetime mate. This, at least, is what I experienced when leaving my exW.



> This Bpd thing is a new development (within the last month) and we have only been living together for a year.


Dadda, as you likely know by now, BPD is believed to be firmly entrenched before age five. Hence, by "new development," you clearly are referring to the diagnosis as being news to her. I find this surprising in two respects. 

First, I'm surprised to hear that she actually believed what the therapist told her. Like the other personality disorders, BPD is "egosyntonic," i.e., is so consistent with the desires of the ego that the individual sees nothing wrong with this distorted way of thinking. This is why PDs are invisible to nearly all the people suffering from them. I've seen no studies producing any statistics on the matter but I would guess that only 5% of BPDers have sufficient self awareness to realize they have this disorder -- or to believe it when they are told.

Second, I'm surprised to hear that her therapist told her the name of her disorder. Perhaps it is different in your country but, here in the USA, therapists usually withhold that information from the BPDer patient because it often is not in her best interests to be told. If you're interested, I explain the reasons for this withholding at Loath to Diagnose. In that post, I discuss how disclosure usually results in the BPDer immediately terminating therapy and, in the unlikely event she continues therapy, results in the insurance company refusing to cover it. 

Consequently, here in this country, therapists usually tell only the low functioning BPDers, i.e., those who are in so much emotional pain that they are cutting themselves (to externalize that pain) or are having suicidal thoughts. When people have pain that severe, they generally welcome the diagnostic news because it is a great relief to be able to put a name to the terrible condition that has been making them miserable for years. 



> I feel between a rock and a hard place.


As long as you choose to remain in a BPDer relationship, that is exactly how you will continue to feel. You are in a room with only two exit doors -- with one labeled _"Damned if You Do"_ and the other _"Damned if You Don't."_ This no-win predicament is due to the position of the BPDer's two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- at the opposite ends of the _very same_ spectrum. As I noted earlier, this means you are always in a lose/lose situation because, as you back away from one fear, you will start triggering the fear at the other end of that same spectrum.



> She is not from my country and now lives and works in my country and of course she has no friends in my country mainly due to her "intensity."


The vast majority of BPDers -- even those exhibiting full-blown BPD -- are "high functioning." This means that they typically hold jobs and generally get along fine with coworkers, clients, casual friends, and total strangers. None of those people is able to trigger the BPDer's fears of abandonment and engulfment. There is no close relationship that can be abandoned and no intimacy to trigger the suffocating feeling of engulfment. 

Hence, with the vast majority of BPDers, the strong BPD symptoms usually appear only when someone (e.g., a casual friend) makes the mistake of drawing close to the BPDer. When a casual friend tries to be a close long-term friend, she will start triggering one of the BPDer's two fears and the BPDer will start a fight to push her away. This is why BPDers typically have no long-term close friends (unless they live a long distance away). And this is why it is common for high functioning BPDers to excel in very difficult jobs such as being a social worker, teacher, surgeon, psychologist, actor, or salesman. 

The result is that most BPDers can be considerate and friendly all day long to complete strangers -- but will go home at night to abuse the very people who love them. But, remember, BPDers generally are not bad people. Like young children, their problem is not being _bad_ but, rather, being _unstable_.



> I have read bpd spouse coping literature online since making this post and I am prepared to give it a shot.


The coping strategies advocated in the literature -- i.e., establishing strong boundaries and frequently validating her feelings -- likely will be helpful if she exhibits only mild to moderate BPD traits. If these symptoms are strong, however, all the boundaries and validation in the world is not going to salvage your relationship.



> As Uptown and the literature said though the fighting will get worse so let's see.


Until she's had years of therapy to acquire emotional skills, what you likely will see is that she will remain in the R/S with you only as long as you continue playing one of two roles. BPDers have such unstable, weak egos that they often feel like they don't know who they really are. To the extent they have a lasting self identity, it is the false self image of being "The Victim," always "The Victim." 

This means that you will be allowed to play only two roles: that of "The Rescuer" and "The Perpetrator." Significantly, both of those roles "validate" her false self image of being "The Victim." Typically, a BPDer will perceive of you as "The Rescuer" for a while, usually during the courtship period. Clearly, if she were not a victim, you wouldn't be trying so hard to rescue her. Consequently, your playing that role validated her false self image. 

After you two started living together, however, she likely started perceiving of you increasingly as "The Perpetrator," i.e., the cause of her unhappiness and every misfortune. This means that she will believe every problem is your fault. In that way, she is able to continue thinking of herself as "The Victim," always "The Victim."



> I am thinking to support her more though because the bpd is new for both of us.


Although her diagnosis is new, you almost certainly began seeing the classic BPD warning signs about 4 to 6 months into your relationship. They would not have been evident earlier -- during your courtship period -- because her infatuation over you would have held her two fears at bay. She was temporarily convinced that you posed no threat because she perceived you as the nearly perfect man who had arrived to rescue her from unhappiness. 

Yet, by the time you two moved in together (if not earlier), her infatuation would have started evaporating, allowing those two fears to return. Once they return, you cannot avoid triggering one or the other. As I noted earlier, the safe Goldilocks position ("not too close" and "not too far away") doesn't exist.

I therefore suggest you take a quick look at my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_. I suspect you will find that most sound very familiar and that you had started seeing these red flags a year ago, if not earlier. If you're interested, Dadda, I provide a more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rhubarb said:


> The fact is different people have a different levels of suspicion and tolerance for this sort of thing. I have a strict set of rules than some might find draconian. I don't have any female friends, at least none where I'm not friends with their husbands and even then I woudn't spend alone time with them. In fact I don't spend any social time alone with other women, period. If it's for business that's a different matter, but I keep it strictly business. I also don't connect privately with women on any online sites or use phone apps to do so. This isn't because I don't trust myself, but rather it keeps my intentions clear to everyone including my wife. Again this might seem extreme to some people but it keeps everything copacetic. All this I do voluntarily. My rules are my own and I had them even before I was married.


Good for you, my boundaries are very similar. I have seen far too many families torn apart by people getting too close to s9meone of the opposite sex outside marriage. 

This couple seem to have weak boundaries. Thats a massive red flag.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

@Dadda - Or rather, to Dadda's girlfriend~

You sound much like me, earlier in my process. I have been treated for BPD and have come a long way as well. There's something I wish someone had been there to tell me, and it's this:

BPD or not, your thoughts, feelings, and needs are *valid*. You might need modulation and recalibration, but you're *not* crazy, and your PERCEPTIONS are not as off-kilter as many will want you to believe. They will take advantage of the BPD and try to undermine you with it, just like your Dadda has attempted to do by mentioning BPD as part of his post and minimizing or flat out failing to mention the problems on his side. It is an invalidation. Your concerns and issues sound very valid and logical to me, and you sound very intelligent and self-aware. Very clear sight. Uptown is very knowledgeable, and I have great respect for him, but he and others tend to see people with BPD as one faceless homogeneous mass - which can be dangerous and destructive to us in multiple ways. But we are all INDIVIDUALS, regardless of symptomology. That's like saying everyone with ADHD is the same. But they're not, and we're not. We are all unique.

There IS hope, and you do not deserve the cruel things that people say - such as how he should just "run away and never look back" where you're concerned. That is hateful and destructive, and I've had it said about me many times. Well you know what? They're wrong, and the hell with those people. And anyone who wants to run away from you doesn't deserve any of the good of you, the gifts you hold within you. You have more courage than they'll ever have. Don't forget that. You are WORTHY. They might never see just how worthy you are, but that doesn't change that you are. You are NOT "bad". Don't forfeit your personal power, the seat of your self-hood, for the ignorance and fear of others. Only you know you, only you know what being you is like. *You are not alone*, and you deserve all the credit in the world for choosing to fight, especially this fight. You can come out on the other side. You are stronger than you know. I hear your voice, and I believe in you.

You have already identified that boundaries on both sides need work, so that's good. I agree that there are definitely problems there. Your sight is true here. I have found that we tend to be more sensitive, aware, and perceptive than people want to acknowledge, and more than they are comfortable with. There are times that we really do see what they don't want us to see, so they try to make us think we're crazy (they're crazy-making), and we tend to believe them if we're already undermined and doubting ourselves completely. By all means challenge and question yourself to make sure it's not a knee-jerk reaction, magnification, or irrational jump, but...yeah, you sound very clear and rational. Filter and check, but don't discard your perceptions after that process.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Soul, I'm glad to see you've joined Dadda's thread. As a highly self-aware person diagnosed with BPD, you are able to bring important insights and perspectives to the discussion that we non-BPDers cannot offer. When reading your many posts over the past five years, I only rarely find statements that I disagree with. And, when I do, I consider it a potential learning opportunity for myself because your perspective oftentimes differs from my own.



soulpotato said:


> BPD or not, your thoughts, feelings, and needs are *valid*. You might need modulation and recalibration, but you're *not* crazy.


Good points, Soul. All feelings are valid because they constitute a reality we must deal with -- and because there are very real factors producing those feelings. This does not imply, however, that our feelings give us an accurate view of other peoples' intentions. On the contrary, strong feelings cause our perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations to be distorted and colored. This is true not only for BPDers but also everyone else. 

This is why, by the time we enter high school, nearly all of us know that our judgement flies out the window whenever we experience intense feelings (e.g., love or anger). And this is why, when we are very angry, we try to keep our mouths shut until we have time to cool down. 

As you correctly say, BPDers are NOT crazy. The reason they experience these thought distortions more frequently than other folks has nothing to do with "crazy." It occurs, instead, because they experience intense feelings far more frequently than other adults do. This problem arises from their inability regulate their own emotions as well as other adults. 

Granted, BPDers _"are all INDIVIDUALS,_" as you say. We nonetheless can safely conclude that all BPDers -- i.e., ALL of those individuals -- are unable to properly regulate their emotions. This inability to control emotions is such a key feature of BPD that, if an individual is able to control emotions, he/she is NOT a BPDer.



> Uptown... and others tend to see people with BPD as one faceless homogeneous mass - which can be dangerous and destructive to us in multiple ways. But we are all INDIVIDUALS, regardless of symptomology. That's like saying everyone with ADHD is the same.


No, I've never said everyone with BPD is the same. On the contrary, I've said that BPD is called a "spectrum disorder" because we all exhibit the 9 symptoms to some degree and we have varying combinations of those 9 symptoms. I also have explained that all of us sometimes find ourselves at the high end of the BPD spectrum. 

During childhood, for example, we all behave like full-blown BPDers 24/7 (which is another way of saying BPDers exhibit the immature behavior seen in children). Many (if not most) of us start behaving like BPDers again for several years when the hormones surge during puberty. Indeed, I've explained that the vast majority of BPD behavior is caused not by the lifetime disorder but, rather, by hormone changes in healthy individuals (e.g., puberty, pregnancy, postpartum, PMS, and perimenopause). The second most-common cause of temporary BPD flareups is drug abuse.

I also have explained that the vast majority of individuals suffering from lifetime BPD also suffer from one or two co-occurring clinical disorders -- together with one or two other personality disorders. An individual's behavior, then, reflects not only the particular combination of 9 BPD traits he has but also the type of clinical disorders and type of other PDs he has as well. In light of all these explanations I've been writing on TAM for years, I find it puzzling that you believe I _"see people with BPD as one faceless homogeneous mass."_



> There IS hope.


Yes, absolutely. Most large cities in the developed countries offer excellent treatment programs (e.g., DBT and CBT) that teach BPDers the emotional skills needed to better regulate their own emotions. It nonetheless is rare for a BPDer (particularly, a high functioning BPDer) to seek out such a program and stay in it long enough to make a real difference. It is rare for a BPDer to have the high level of self awareness and ego strength necessary to do well in those programs. You are very blessed to have had both, Soul.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

@Dadda ... this is for the girl friend. You apparently have an account on TAM. Please use your account when posting on TAM, not Dadda's account.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

It seems to me that Dadda and his gf have different expectations in a relationship.

He does not want her to have close friendships with other men. But he thinks that it's ok for him to have close friendships with other women.

She has asked that all things, like their phones be open to each other and she provides that transparency. He instead will not agree to that level of transparency for himself and continues to use private communication methods with other women.

When Dadda tells the story, his gf seems unreasonable. When she tells her side of the story, he sounds unreasonable.

Dadda and gf, the two of you are not compatible. Gf's bpd is not an excuse to diminish her reasonable desire for an transparency in the relationship.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Dadda said:


> Dadda's gf here again.... i don't think it's fair to say there's never going to be a sustainable midpoint. I believe if I continue to make a serious effort with my Dr, I can work on maintaining stability.


Dadda's GF, sorry for my delayed response. Until Elle said something about it, I had not noticed that you had started posting. As to the lack of a safe Goldilocks position between "too close" and "too far away," I stated earlier that Dadda himself could not find a safe midpoints position as long as your BPD symptoms remain strong and persistent. This does not imply, however, that YOU cannot reduce those symptoms by undergoing therapy (e.g., CBT and DBT) to learn how to regulate your own emotions. 

I therefore was not saying that a sustainable midpoints position is impossible to achieve. Rather, I was saying that -- as long as your BPD symptoms remain strong -- it is impossible for him to achieve it by altering his own behavior. Simply stated, he cannot heal you. The healing is an inside job that only you can do -- with guidance from a professional. I'm very pleased to hear that you've already started that process. I wish the best for the both of you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Dadda said:


> noticed him/Bonnie referring to each other as hun. Not just him, yes her too. I was not happy with this. I brought it up in the middle of a conversation and I can't remember exactly what I asked but something to the effect of if he ever referred to women as hun (or maybe I asked he ever used certain pet names) in conversation and he denied it.


fwiw, my husband calls ALL women hun. It's just what he does. Doesn't mean a damn thing to him other than that was how he was raised. Doesn't make him a pervert or mean he is cheating on me.



> I will add that in both these WhatsApp incidents the only visible conversation with Bonnie, was the current. All previous conversation history was deleted. This time I thought to check his family group whatsapp and the convo history there went ways back. Yes this adds to my suspicious feelings.*


How do you know they were carrying on a conversation if 'everything' was deleted? It was a family group.



> Yes I have my personal mental issue dealing with. I try to be self critical, Ive introduced HNHN and love languages and the drama triangle (he will tell you that he engaged grudgingly the times I've shared this info by asking him to read a chapter here and there with me and reflect), he will tell you that I make a serious effort to find solutions when we have problems


I commend you for being somewhat open-minded and trying to find solutions. Not many people do.



> Despite the history with Bonnie, I've tried to be accommodating with Dadda's/her friendship and I get along well with her. He's gone out without me on many occasions when she's the only girl in their guy group and sometimes he's the one present that she's closest to. She's always the only girl in his guy group (excluding me). He's gone without me making any issues so please understand I'm not unreasonable. I just do not want to take any unnecessary risks in my relationship


Good that you're keeping your eyes open, but really? History? She helped him out once. And she hangs out with her brother and his friends. That's hardly a history.



> I'd like to add that Dadda's bestfriend has a long history of cheating. I told Dadda I was not comfortable with him having a friend who thought this was ok, and I couldn't believe he didn't think it was a big a deal. Dadda was not happy as he said I barely knew the mom (I had only met her >5 times), he asked me to keep quiet as this could ruin his friendship. I grudgingly agreed. Dadda went immediately to his best friend with our current incident. You can imagine I am not happy with this because I think if Dadda was more self critical, he would recognize his friend is the worst person to seek advice from considering his poor boundaries. He would recognize that obviously his best friend would agree that I was overreacting. This should not be about taking sides, this should be about healthy boundaries.


On this I agree with you. Dadda is not being honest, nor equal with you. We tell men here not to let their wives go hang out with girlfriends who cheat because they're likely to get the wives involved in, or at least tolerant of, cheating. Same goes for you Dadda. Your friend is not honorable and you are therefore besmirched as well by condoning it. Your gf has a right to be upset by this AND by you going to him to 'prop up' your side of the argument. You're not being terribly introspective and it doesn't look good on you. You might want to start thinking about this a little more rationally.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Dadda said:


> The only person my age I've met in my industry actually went to high school with Dadda. He will tell you that she's a model type of daughter with brains who demands respect. I admire her as a person and for her accomplishments, but he will also tell you that she's such a serious person, they couldn't really be friends in HS and he's lost as to who in the world her friends were/currently are. For those very reasons, I haven't been able to cultivate a social relationship with her outside of work.


This makes no sense. "For these reasons?" What reasons? That she's smart? Demands respect? Serious? He doesn't know who her friends are? Sounds like an excuse to me.

fwiw, if you're in a new country with only a man, it behooves you to DO the extra work to get out and MAKE friends. You can't rely on him to be your one and only, especially with bpd. You need to be living your own life, cultivating your own friendships, hobbies, work interests. Dependency is a relationship killer.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

soulpotato said:


> @Dadda - Or rather, to Dadda's girlfriend~
> 
> You sound much like me, earlier in my process. I have been treated for BPD and have come a long way as well. There's something I wish someone had been there to tell me, and it's this:
> 
> ...


 @soulpotato, Dadda's gf here. I refrained from coming back on here to thank you because I wanted to run really far away from this thread and all the negative feelings associated with the situation quoted herein. And once EleGirl jumped in and asked that I post under my own login, I wanted to disappear from the face of the earth. I didn't want anyone to know about my diagnosis, I was terrified of being judged. For so long I had looked on and read Uptown's BPD postings with interest, I was certain they described my father to a T. I would think if only I could get my mom on here so she could read some of his posts and understand that my dad was hopeless, that there was nothing she could do to change him and that her best option was to get as far away from him as possible.

It's a different story when the shoe is on the other foot. It's taken me a couple months to get over the shock of my diagnosis. I always felt deep down that something wasn't right but I spent most of my life believing it was most of the people around me who were screwed up. I felt things too deeply, I loved too strongly, I constantly sought truth and enlightenment, no way the problem could be me...

I want to let you know your post meant so much to me @soulpotato. I cried buckets when I first read it. I needed that compassion, understanding and validation so badly. I cried loads more after realizing that I really was that desperate for validation, even from a complete stranger. It was clear from your post that you've come a long way. I gleaned from you a tremendous level of acceptance that I could not fathom in my terrified/newly diagnosed BPD state. Your words have served as a motivator and a much needed source of comfort. You are proof that this thing does not have to control me and my life. Proof that I can take control!

Thank you @soulpotato. You ****ing rock!


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

@Keke24, for what its worth, you seem to have a pretty level head on you. i dont see anything you are asking about as being unreasonable, and i didn't see any indication of overly dramatic emotion in any of your posts on this thread. 

and, also for what its worth... i have been married to a woman for almost ten years who likely has BPD but has been diagnosed with Bi-Polar Disorder, type 1. a lot of doctors are afraid of giving a diagnosis of BPD because of the terrible stigma attached to it. i have also been in a relationship for the past year with a woman who HAS been diagnosed with BPD(she currently lives with my wife and i. polyamory). so, its not like i have no experience being in relationships with people who have their quirks. despite what many people here will say, i see no reason why one cannot have a fulfilling relationship with someone with BPD. or any such mental illness.

as long as you keep working on improving yourself, you really have little to worry about when it comes to your diagnosis, so long as you keep at it and don't get complacent. you will find, as you go along, that the things you are afraid of are usually not as bad as you think they are. the fear is almost ALWAYS bigger than the fact. you are probably already finding that the most liberating and simultaneously terrifying thing you can do is learn that it is ok to be afraid. 

now, as for the issue with Bonnie, the best thing you can do is decide for yourself what you are willing to accept, and then relay that to your boyfriend. you would not be wrong for calling what he is doing a double standard. you cannot control how you emotionally respond to things. if what he is doing is causing you too much pain, then its ok to tell him that you cannot accept it in your life. just remember, you can respond however you want. nobody can control what you actually do, even if you cant control how you feel. 

-here is a secret for you though. one that people wont tell you. they say that the hallmark of BPD is the inability to regulate your emotions. truth is, NOBODY is capable of regulating their emotions. the ones who seem to be able to are in fact the ones who have accepted that they cannot regulate them. so they accept, observe them to gain information about what they are experiencing, and let them pass. they use their thoughts to focus on other things, look at it differently. its kinda like turning your eyes away from the sun. the direct sun will hurt your eyes no matter how many different ways you try to look at it. if you look at the ground though, your eyes don't hurt. your eyes don't feel better because the sun doesn't hurt anymore, they feel better because you stopped looking directly at the sun.

i hope that makes sense...


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> @Keke24, for what its worth, you seem to have a pretty level head on you. i dont see anything you are asking about as being unreasonable, and i didn't see any indication of overly dramatic emotion in any of your posts on this thread.
> 
> and, also for what its worth... i have been married to a woman for almost ten years who likely has BPD but has been diagnosed with Bi-Polar Disorder, type 1. a lot of doctors are afraid of giving a diagnosis of BPD because of the terrible stigma attached to it. i have also been in a relationship for the past year with a woman who HAS been diagnosed with BPD(she currently lives with my wife and i. polyamory). so, its not like i have no experience being in relationships with people who have their quirks. despite what many people here will say, i see no reason why one cannot have a fulfilling relationship with someone with BPD. or any such mental illness.
> 
> ...


Thank you so very much for this As'laDain. I've made such a concerted effort to be rational when it comes to displaying my emotions throughout my life so that really made it even more difficult to accept the diagnosis. Things were always crazy inside but I made it my duty to hurt people with absolute silence when they intentionally hurt me however something went terribly wrong in the last 1 1/2years and I could no longer control my behavior. It would seem that I went from an 'acting-in' BPDer to an 'acting-out' BPDer, it's something that I haven't quite gotten a chance to discuss with my psychologist as yet. 

You are so right about fear, and even more so about acceptance. So much about dealing with this goes back to acceptance. Acceptance that this is who I am, acceptance that this is what happened to me in my childhood, acceptance that I'll never get the love and validation that I want from my parents, acceptance that it's ok to feel hurt and sad about all these things but most importantly, accepting that my future will be exactly what I make of it. 

You will be happy to know that Dadda and I have come to a resolution on the issue discussed here. We both agree that we should have boundaries for interactions with the opp sex, and that it would not be ok to pick and choose which member of the opp sex they should apply to and when. It was quite an uncomfortable experience for both of us but I'm grateful that we were able to come to a resolution without yelling and cussing. We've both had terrible examples of spousal relationships in our lives so this is all very new and we're trying our very best to get things right before we settle into getting married and having kids.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Keke24 said:


> It would seem that I went from an 'acting-in' BPDer to an 'acting-out' BPDer, it's something that I haven't quite gotten a chance to discuss with my psychologist as yet.


Keke, my understanding is that going from "acting in" to "acting out" generally is regarded as a sign you are improving and becoming less self destructive. Granted, acting out may be harder on your relationship than when you were punishing your partner with icy silence and passive-aggressive remarks. But it likely is a healthier state for you to be in. I'm glad you intend to ask your psychologist about it.


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