# Leaving after years as a housewife??



## Mrs.K

I would like to hear from some women who have left their husbands after spending just about their entire adult life as a housewife.

I have been a stay at home mom for SIXTEEN years. I work a part time job for our church which wouldn't pay for much at all.

Until very recently I have never seriously considered separation or divorce because I don't know how I would make it.. I still don't. Kids are 8,11 and 16 and have never known anything but having me at home, at every school and sporting event. They are my entire life and that change alone would about kill me.

BUT I am not happy in my marriage, I haven't been in a long time. My husband is addicted to porn and lying. I feel no attraction to him anymore because of these behaviors. I can't even stand to be in the same room with him anymore.

He has ZERO idea that I am feeling this way. I honestly don't even know how I would bring it up because he would think I was just kidding.. I think he feels a lot of power in the fact that I couldn't keep up with the house and all the bills without him.


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## personofinterest

How long has the pornography been an issue? Has he had any emotional or physical affairs? How do you two communicate? When you say he is addicted to lying, is that about the pornography, or are there other things?

I would say that if you are seriously considering leaving, the first thing you need to do is try to find a job that is full time. Most courts will expect you to work full time even if you have been a SAHM up until now. Was your staying at home a joint decision? I ask because there will be the implication that you somehow "owe" him if you have been staying home (which is ridiculous, but just trying to dot the i's and cross the t's).

I would let him no in no uncertain terms how unhappy you are and why. If you have not tried MC, I would make it a requirement and give it best effort, even if you feel you are done.


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## Mrs.K

It has been an issue for our entire marriage, though he had me fooled that it was a non issue and completely normal. I have tried to accept it. I have tried to keep up but none of my efforts have been good enough. He lies about watching it, he lies about being done with it. He does tell other little white lies but I honestly just don't trust much of what he says. I am not naive here but on an actual affair my best guess would be no, he goes to and from work each day, he is always home on time/gets there on time. Doesn't go out with friends or anything (for no other reason than he does work very long hours and has a really bad commute so there is really no time)

My staying home has always been a joint decision, I had offered many times over the years to get a full time job or work alternating shifts from him but it was always said that I am needed more here than I am bringing home a paycheck. I have no idea what I would ever do for full time work. I am not a dumb person by any means but I have been home since I was around 21.

I do think we should do marriage counseling but every time I have brought it up in the past to get out of it he will improve certain behaviors until I let it go. I take care of everything to do with the kids, the house, the upkeep of the yard, cooking, cleaning etc.. and I have always done this so happily because I deeply appreciate my life and the ability to be at home. I feel like he has crossed too many lines this time, we don't have sex anymore but every few months, it isn't because of rejection either. He has gained a considerable amount of weight and that never even bothered me but what is too much for me is the porn that I most recently found on a kindle in the bathroom closet.. and what he seems to be doing. He is into bondage and seems to be doing this stuff on his own. I had tried in the past to give him what he wants as far as that stuff but it always left me feeling uncomfortable and my efforts were never enough anyway.


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## StarFires

personofinterest said:


> Most courts will expect you to work full time even if you have been a SAHM up until now.


What do courts have to do with whether a SAHM gets a job? What is the court's expectation that "you work full time"? Why do they expect it?

I've never heard of anything like that. Please explain because you left it open-ended.


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## personofinterest

Mrs.K said:


> It has been an issue for our entire marriage, though he had me fooled that it was a non issue and completely normal. I have tried to accept it. I have tried to keep up but none of my efforts have been good enough. He lies about watching it, he lies about being done with it. He does tell other little white lies but I honestly just don't trust much of what he says. I am not naive here but on an actual affair my best guess would be no, he goes to and from work each day, he is always home on time/gets there on time. Doesn't go out with friends or anything (for no other reason than he does work very long hours and has a really bad commute so there is really no time)
> 
> My staying home has always been a joint decision, I had offered many times over the years to get a full time job or work alternating shifts from him but it was always said that I am needed more here than I am bringing home a paycheck. I have no idea what I would ever do for full time work. I am not a dumb person by any means but I have been home since I was around 21.
> 
> I do think we should do marriage counseling but every time I have brought it up in the past to get out of it he will improve certain behaviors until I let it go. I take care of everything to do with the kids, the house, the upkeep of the yard, cooking, cleaning etc.. and I have always done this so happily because I deeply appreciate my life and the ability to be at home. I feel like he has crossed too many lines this time, we don't have sex anymore but every few months, it isn't because of rejection either. He has gained a considerable amount of weight and that never even bothered me but what is too much for me is the porn that I most recently found on a kindle in the bathroom closet.. and what he seems to be doing. He is into bondage and seems to be doing this stuff on his own. I had tried in the past to give him what he wants as far as that stuff but it always left me feeling uncomfortable and my efforts were never enough anyway.


Here is what I would do, but bear in mind I am not all-knowing and am just...well, me. But I left a marriage with serious issues, and so I guess I have some sort of perspective.

1. Start looking for a full time job. It doesn't have to pay big money. Think about the skills you have. You have typed your posts with good grammar, so you at least having typing skills, can search the internet, etc. Look at clerical work. You have managed a home and children. That gives you skills as well. I would sign up for sites like Elance, where you can do some freelance clerical work and even become a virtual assistant for a bit. This will also help your resume.

2. Figure out what separation would look like. Would he be the one to move out? What would visitation entail? I'm a big believer in 50/50. How would that work?

3. You said your part time work is at your church. What is their stance on pornography and honesty? Most Biblical churches worth their salt will frown on it. This can be an important piece. You don't want to smear your husband by any means, but if you DO separate and he starts spinning tales of you deserting his poor self, it's good to know that your church will be a safe haven where you can tell the truth and receive understanding. Sadly, porn is seen as a right most other places, so people would rather defend it than admit the harm it can do to marriages.

4. How would you tell your children?

5. I would do a free consultation with a couple of attorneys just to see what your options might be and what things might look like.

6. I would make counseling a hard line. No improvement to get out of it. Just say, "I don't think I can continue in this marriage without serious changes. Changes we need help to make. I have made an appointment with a marriage counselor for X date, and I want us to go so that I can continue to be married to you." If he balks, say, "Your refusal to get help with our marriage says to me that you do not value our marriage or me and that you do not care whether we remain married or not." Make it unemotional but crystal clear.

7. Be above reproach. Make sure that if you share any of your issues with a friend, it is a FEMALE friend. This goes without saying, but people can and will look for any ***** to make you the villian. Don't give them ammunition.


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## Tasorundo

I think she was saying that a court isn't going to award you enough alimony/support that you don't have to support yourself at all.


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## Mr.Married

StarFires said:


> What do courts have to do with whether a SAHM gets a job? What is the court's expectation that "you work full time"? Why do they expect it?
> 
> I've never heard of anything like that. Please explain because you left it open-ended.


I think it meant that alimony doesn't last forever. Eventually have to get a job.


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## personofinterest

StarFires said:


> What do courts have to do with whether a SAHM gets a job? What is the court's expectation that "you work full time"? Why do they expect it?
> 
> I've never heard of anything like that. Please explain because you left it open-ended.


First, I am not interested in having my statements poked with holes (as you tend to do). But yes, the courts, at least around me, do not smile on a woman who does not even TRY to find full time work, expecting her ex to take full care of both her and children. Part of the sacrifice when one divorces is sacrificing the luxury of staying home 24/7. The OP may get high alimony for a couple of years, but that is just postponing the inevitable. Most courts are moving toward expecting the SAHM to make a good faith effort to be somewhat financially independent (with the exception of child support).

Again, I am not all-knowing. Some states may be different. So I'm not going down a rabbit trail or doing anyone else's work for them.


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## Mrs.K

Personofinterest- Thank you so much for all your thoughts. I truly appreciate them. You bring up a lot of GOOD questions, and the main one is visitation and telling the kids.
I can't even imagine telling the kids or having to share birthdays and holidays, weekends etc. However if he can't work with me on certain things I am sure there will be no other choice eventually.

I also don't know how it would work out with the house either, my kids love this house, I love this house but I could never afford it on my own. I had thought about if it ever came to splitting up we could let the kids continue to live their lives and split time in the house, it seems to work out OK for a lot of people.

I feel very conflicted. I can't imagine not being married to him anymore. I don't like him very much right now but I do love him. I also can't imagine living the rest of my life this way either. The kids are getting older and more independent, eventually it will just be the two of us but I just can't compete with his addiction. Been there, done that.


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## StarFires

Mrs.K said:


> It has been an issue for our entire marriage, though he had me fooled that it was a non issue and completely normal. I have tried to accept it. I have tried to keep up but none of my efforts have been good enough. He lies about watching it, he lies about being done with it. He does tell other little white lies but I honestly just don't trust much of what he says. I am not naive here but on an actual affair my best guess would be no, he goes to and from work each day, he is always home on time/gets there on time. Doesn't go out with friends or anything (for no other reason than he does work very long hours and has a really bad commute so there is really no time)


Due to his actions and his lying, you've lost respect for him. It's hard, if at all possible, to get that back. If you want to leave, get a full-time job so you can support yourself, and put a plan into action. You can begin with temp agencies. Working for them is not as much money because they take so much of the base pay. It's the way they operate. Some jobs are only temporary, but some of the employers are looking to hire full-time. They just do their searching through the temp agency. So you work for the agency at reduced pay for x amount of time (usually around 3 months) before the job can officially hire you. You can work for a couple or 3 agencies to make sure there is no downtime between temp jobs. It's worth a try toward your financial independence. 

I got a great job through a temp agency once - full time, good pay, health insurance, life insurance, and other benefits. I had skills, education, and experience under my belt although none in that particular field. You might be able to use the temp agency to get experience doing various types of things. And, you can begin now to improve your typing speed with online timers if you need that. 

Or, you can take a 6/9/12-month course in something that interests you. Many schools offer CNA training as a start into the medical field. CNAs don't earn much money, but I know women who parlayed their training and a year or two of experience into their own business, which is a lot more money. 

Another consideration that is easier and more expedient is to open your home as a daycare. You just need to be licensed and check with zoning for your area. Most areas don't prevent people from operating a daycare in their home even if the area isn't zoned for business.

In circumstances like yours, I always take the opportunity to suggest/request that you teach your daughters differently if you have any daughters. Being a SAHM is an incredibly big mistake in my opinion. As you're seeing now that you have no or limited resources, your options for being able to make your own life decisions are also limited. So, if you have daughters, please impress upon them that the decision to be a SAHM is a very noble one but not the wisest one for their own and their children's future. When you relinquish your power to another person and spend your life depending on him, you are no longer in charge of your own power and your own life because you gave it over to him. Even if they do decide to be a SAHM, to spend that time productively getting an education so they will have that if they ever need it and also working a part-time job to keep working experience current.


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## BarbedFenceRider

["I feel very conflicted. I can't imagine not being married to him anymore. I don't like him very much right now but I do love him"]


Says alot right there....I'm sure that he would have some stuff to say to you if he is hurting as well. I would start with IC and figure yourself out. Then, the porn and degrading talk needs to be stopped. And needs to see that your love and heart are dying. After you building yourself up, you can address the marriage out of a place of love and respect. If nothing cannot be changed or happen, then D is on the table and amicable treatment between the both of you for the sake of the kids....


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## StarFires

personofinterest said:


> First, I am not interested in having my statements poked with holes (as you tend to do). But yes, the courts, at least around me, do not smile on a woman who does not even TRY to find full time work, expecting her ex to take full care of both her and children. Part of the sacrifice when one divorces is sacrificing the luxury of staying home 24/7. The OP may get high alimony for a couple of years, but that is just postponing the inevitable. Most courts are moving toward expecting the SAHM to make a good faith effort to be somewhat financially independent (with the exception of child support).
> 
> Again, I am not all-knowing. Some states may be different. So I'm not going down a rabbit trail or doing anyone else's work for them.


I was not challenging you. I was asking because, like I said, I never heard of it. But I see you require your statements to be taken as truth without question, so I won't ask you anything again. Have a great day.


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## Mrs.K

And just to add another layer...

I suffer from 3 autoimmune diseases and I am on immune suppression drugs which make certain fields almost impossible for me to work in, and dangerous for my own health. Before anyone has to wonder I do want to point a couple of things out.. I do not use my illnesses to get out of things or for a reason to be lazy, I do not complain about them, in fact I push myself harder to prove that I am ok.


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## personofinterest

Mrs.K said:


> And just to add another layer...
> 
> I suffer from 3 autoimmune diseases and I am on immune suppression drugs which make certain fields almost impossible for me to work in, and dangerous for my own health. Before anyone has to wonder I do want to point a couple of things out.. I do not use my illnesses to get out of things or for a reason to be lazy, I do not complain about them, in fact I push myself harder to prove that I am ok.


Ugh, I'm sorry. That must be painful and exhausting.

I would ask at a consultation how that factors in with support. A person with those health challenges might be more entitled to support than an able-bodied person who could find a job anywhere that is hiring.

I have a friend in your situation who is married to a serial cheater  She is stuck because without his insurance, she cannot get the medicine that actually helps her, and she cannot work full time due to her serious health issues.

I hate to see these kinds of situations


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## Mrs.K

BarbedFenceRider said:


> ["I feel very conflicted. I can't imagine not being married to him anymore. I don't like him very much right now but I do love him"]
> 
> 
> Says alot right there....I'm sure that he would have some stuff to say to you if he is hurting as well. I would start with IC and figure yourself out. Then, the porn and degrading talk needs to be stopped. And needs to see that your love and heart are dying. After you building yourself up, you can address the marriage out of a place of love and respect. If nothing cannot be changed or happen, then D is on the table and amicable treatment between the both of you for the sake of the kids....




It is pretty doubtful that he is hurting at all. If he is he is fine with hiding it or just not letting anything bother him. He is the one that needs the counseling, of course with marriage counseling we would do that together but for the first time in my life I have myself figured out. I know how I feel, and I know his actions are wrong and I deserve better than to be second fiddle to some dirty videos.


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## 3Xnocharm

You MUST find full time work. The suggestion of utilizing a temp agency is a good one. Some even offer benefits to their employees. (not that you need it at this point, but good to have the option) I would suggest that once you have yourself gainfully employed, you then approach him with where you are at. Tell him you require the two of you to do counseling together, and that he get therapy on his own for his problem. As someone else stated, non negotiable. Dont let him out of it because he pretends to behave better, you know that is a bullcrap game now. If he tries to flip the script on you and tells you to get out, make sure you DO NOT LEAVE. Legally he cannot kick you out of your home. You deserve better than he is giving you, and if he refuses to do better, then you need to end this.


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## badsanta

Mrs.K said:


> BUT I am not happy in my marriage, I haven't been in a long time. My husband is addicted to porn and lying. I feel no attraction to him anymore because of these behaviors. I can't even stand to be in the same room with him anymore.
> 
> He has ZERO idea that I am feeling this way. I honestly don't even know how I would bring it up because he would think I was just kidding.. I think he feels a lot of power in the fact that I couldn't keep up with the house and all the bills without him.


 @Mrs.K if you are to a point where you are ready to consider divorce, you are also at a point where you finally have the power to reconcile it as well. If your husband lies to you about porn, the fact that he lies erodes trust in the relationship. If you are harboring resent towards him and refusing to talk about it, that is also a form of lying (by selectively omitting communications about your feelings in the relationship). 

Why would he lie to you? He probably convinces himself that he can stop, but at the end of the day you are who you are and that can be impossible to change. He should instead be open and honest with you. If there are areas where he has imperfections he can make you aware of those things so that you can work together in a healthy way. But instead he lies to himself and you, and nothing will ever change. 

Why would you lie to him about being ready to end the marriage? Because you don't want to hurt him, and you do not want him to hurt you by dismissing your feelings. So you lie to protect the relationship and make everything easier. Essentially the same reasons he has lied to you. 

So, back to my point... If you are at a point where you no longer care for the marriage, you no longer care about hurting your husband's feelings AND he no longer has the power to hurt your feelings because you are ready to let go. At this point you could put it out there that you know that he keeps watching porn, lying to you about it, and you can no longer accept a husband for which you can not trust and is not open and honest to you. Tell him he needs to seriously work on solving these problems because it may already be too late, or to help work with you towards and amicable divorce.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## notmyjamie

Mrs.K said:


> It is pretty doubtful that he is hurting at all. If he is he is fine with hiding it or just not letting anything bother him. He is the one that needs the counseling, of course with marriage counseling we would do that together but for the first time in my life I have myself figured out. I know how I feel, and I know his actions are wrong and I deserve better than to be second fiddle to some dirty videos.



Respectfully, I think you are wrong if you think he's not hurting. Your issues are about more than just videos. He has some kinks/fetishes (I never know the difference) that you find disgusting. Therefore, he is married to a woman who won't let him be himself in the bedroom so he has to hide who he really is from her. (He's doing a very poor job of that though) That has to be painful for him. Even I can admit that my marriage must have been painful for my STBX as he was hiding who he really is for years too. To the outside person he looked like a guy without a care in the world. People are shocked we're divorcing. 

Your husband is using the videos because he can't be himself with you due to your disgust of him. As I said in the other thread, I, too, would find it very difficult if my partner wanted to be submissive with me and have me tie him up, etc. I don't think I could do it. But, that wouldn't make his desires go away just because I couldn't do it. So, because you can't have the type of sex he desires, he's taken to getting his need fulfilled via videos. 

Any counseling he gets will probably not garner the results you expect. The counselor will not help him to not have those desires anymore. He/she will help him to reconcile them into his life and that may just result in him asking you for a divorce. 

I don't say these things to challenge or hurt you but to help you see things a little differently. I bet he loves you and feels deep shame and hurt that he can't fulfill you sexually because of his own proclivities.

ETA: As someone whose husband also hid his true self from her for years, you have my utmost sympathy for what you are going through. I know how painful it is when you just can't hide the truth any longer. I am divorcing my husband and the freedom I feel can't be described accurately. I feel like I've been given a new chance at life. I hope the same happens for you!!!!


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## Mrs.K

@badsanta you are right, it is all about protecting feelings for sure. I said to him casually a few weeks ago that I was sure he was watching it again he said no and quickly changed the subject. At this point I had proof but I did not push because I did not want to embarrass him, in the past I would have pushed but I don't have a desire to hurt his feelings or make him feel embarrassed. Not that I had the desire to before but with age comes patience and more awareness.

I don't even know how to bring it up anymore, I guess. It also bothers me because does he think I am stupid? He is leaving all the signs right out in the open. And I do feel guilty because I have been giving him the cold shoulder and he has no clue why. Yesterday I told him that every single area of my life feels so disappointing right now and he got very defensive. I thought that I would end up bringing it up but I decided to table it.


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## Mybabysgotit

Mrs.K said:


> I would like to hear from some women who have left their husbands after spending just about their entire adult life as a housewife.
> 
> I have been a stay at home mom for SIXTEEN years. I work a part time job for our church which wouldn't pay for much at all.
> 
> Until very recently I have never seriously considered separation or divorce because I don't know how I would make it.. I still don't. Kids are 8,11 and 16 and have never known anything but having me at home, at every school and sporting event. They are my entire life and that change alone would about kill me.
> 
> BUT I am not happy in my marriage, I haven't been in a long time. My husband is addicted to porn and lying. I feel no attraction to him anymore because of these behaviors. I can't even stand to be in the same room with him anymore.
> 
> *He has ZERO idea that I am feeling this way.* I honestly don't even know how I would bring it up because he would think I was just kidding.. I think he feels a lot of power in the fact that I couldn't keep up with the house and all the bills without him.


Wow. My wife and I have this agreement that if either one of us are not happy in the marriage, or a certain behavior is not acceptable, we will tell each other. At that point, it is up to the other person to change their behavior. If they do not change the behavior, then consequences are legitimate. 

You should really discuss with your husband how unhappy you are and that you are considering divorce. At least give him a chance.


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## personofinterest

Mybabysgotit said:


> Wow. My wife and I have this agreement that if either one of us are not happy in the marriage, or a certain behavior is not acceptable, we will tell each other. At that point, it is up to the other person to change their behavior. If they do not change the behavior, then consequences are legitimate.
> 
> You should really discuss with your husband how unhappy you are and that you are considering divorce. At least give him a chance.


Except that her husband knows FULL WELL how she feels about his porn addiction, and he is doing it AGAIN.

Yes, the OP should be very upfront about her feelings, but he cannot honestly claim ignorance when he is choosing something he KNOWS hurts her AND he is deceiving her about it.

That's like cheating and then saying "well you should have TOLD me that was a dealbreaker!"

Some things are just obvious.


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## Casual Observer

So this may seem a bit strange but not being happy in the marriage... have you defined what happiness would be? Does your husband have any idea of what that would take? Would you be better able to take on the problems in your marriage if your self-esteem was improved?

Would you feel comfortable laying down the law to your husband? He’s going to not take you very seriously at first, because you’ve brought it up before and not held him accountable. But it sounds like, if he did change, you could learn to like him again.

I’d look into a total nuclear effort to try and get things right with your relationship because of what you’ve already invested in it, the kids, and that you said you still love your husband. Define what will make you happy and see if he’s willing to be the person to help get you there. Place a time limit on it, and consequences if he falls off the porn wagon. 

And, reading between the lines, maybe you’re LD , maybe you’ve accepted a nearly non-existent sex life, but perhaps that’s making you feel like you’re being rejected and that’s also reducing your self-esteem.


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## badsanta

Mrs.K said:


> I know how I feel, and I know his actions are wrong and I deserve better than to be second fiddle to some dirty videos.


While I do not exactly want to defend your husband's porn use, I will try to give you some insight into my own struggles with the topic. Everyone is different so this may or may not help, but it should give you some insight into the dynamics of porn. 

My wife once asked me if I masturbate because I watched porn, or if I watch porn because I masturbated. She was simply trying to understand the cause-effect relationship between the two things, but at the time the question made absolutely no sense to me. 

Many men discover a rather powerful combination of combining Porn, Masturbation, and Orgasm (sometimes referred to as PMO) as something mind altering. I have spent enough time researching this to understand one BIG difference often overlooked between men and women's sexual response is the notion of a refractory period and the related hormones. Women from what I understand do not experience refractory hormones and thus the reason why many are multi orgasmic. 

So OK, we all know that PMO is rewarding, but to most men they likely crave that behavior for the side effects of the refractory hormones. Stereotypically most women joke that a husband almost immediately falls asleep after sex, as if he somehow jokingly exhausted himself. NO! Husbands stereotypically fall asleep right after sex because of a hormone so powerful it can instantly (within a few seconds) put an end to any and all wants and desires, and relax the entire body to a state of not giving a shît about anything what so ever. So indirectly men might crave porn because they want to enjoy the hormones that are like a powerful emotional light switch that flips everything the f*** off for a while. It can become a form of self medication and a rather habit forming one as well. 

So is it the porn a man desires, or is it an escape from his own emotional reality? Women claim men can masturbate without porn but the refractory is no where near as powerful without it. Porn overstimulates and the body creates a more powerful refractory release of hormones to compensate. Porn is so powerful it can overcome the refractory period for a double dose of refractory hormones and the end result is feeling like an emotional zombie. 

Now stop for a moment and ask yourself if your husband might be the same? If so you are NOT playing second fiddle to a bunch of dirty movies. NO husband will feel like he hates himself and can't stand life as an emotional foreplay and trigger to desiring sex with his wife. NO husband will go to bed with a ton of stress and frustration and feel like he sexually desires his wife to make it all stop. Instead a husband will crave an escape from reality. PMO can provide that, even if your dog died just hours ago. 

The reasons above are also why male sexuality tends to be short circuited into behaviors that are otherwise unloving. 

In the meantime sexual intimacy in marriage should be a place of calm healing and love. Making yourself known and being completely open and honest with your spouse. That in and of itself is the exact opposite of what PMO delivers, so it can be extremely difficult to restore intimacy in a marriage once a man habitually uses PMO to self sooth and escape. There is however a key to unlocking and freeing bad habits. That comes in the form of adrenaline to just be brave and be your true self for your spouse and through embracing vulnerability and learning to be humble about one's imperfections, love can prevail and heal. 

So, why is your husband in so much pain? Probably because he is more in tune with you right now that you are aware. You both can't stand something about the marriage and it is hard to lean into to that as opposed to the notion of trying to find a way to escape. Being open and honest with a spouse is probably the hardest thing anyone can ever do. Doing so is the key to reconciliation. You can't change each other but instead have to learn to love and accept each other for who you really are and not the couple you wanted to be. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## EleGirl

StarFires said:


> What do courts have to do with whether a SAHM gets a job? What is the court's expectation that "you work full time"? Why do they expect it?
> 
> I've never heard of anything like that. Please explain because you left it open-ended.


More and more states are requiring that after divorce, a parent who was a SAHP has to make every attempt to be self supporting. The court cannot force anyone to get a job. But what they do is to say that if the woman (in this case) does not do become as self supporting as possible then she will lose all or part of the alimony payments. Why? Because it's profoundly unfair to stick the other spouse with supporting an ex-spouse for life. Alimony was put in place during a time when it was impossible for women to find a job that could lead to her supporting herself. That's not the case anymore. Almost every woman has the potential and opportunity to be self supporting.


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## 3Xnocharm

personofinterest said:


> Except that her husband knows FULL WELL how she feels about his porn addiction, and he is doing it AGAIN.
> 
> Yes, the OP should be very upfront about her feelings, but he cannot honestly claim ignorance when he is choosing something he KNOWS hurts her AND he is deceiving her about it.


THIS. He is very aware of how she feels about this, but I guess maybe he thinks she will stay around forever anyway simply due to having made vows. Its staggering how many people seem to think that once the vows are made, they have done their part and dont need to participate or consider the other person in the partnership. I am sure he is quite unaware that she is almost out the door, but he cannot claim ignorance on this particular subject. She has been allowing him to skate due to not wanting constant conflict, so he is likely going to be shocked that she is actually done with his **** behavior.


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## EleGirl

Mrs.K said:


> And just to add another layer...
> 
> I suffer from 3 autoimmune diseases and I am on immune suppression drugs which make certain fields almost impossible for me to work in, and dangerous for my own health. Before anyone has to wonder I do want to point a couple of things out.. I do not use my illnesses to get out of things or for a reason to be lazy, I do not complain about them, in fact I push myself harder to prove that I am ok.


Most states give alimony for a period of half the length of the marriage. Some give none until a couple is married for 20 years. Knowing which state you live in would really help.

It sounds like your health puts some limitations on what you can do as a job/career. So what can you do? What would you want to do as a job/career? Figure that out. Then find out what you need to get there. 

Most SAHMs are much more employable if they have recent training. Let's say you decide that you want to be an accountant. So investigate what you need to become one. Do you want certification as a CPA? Or will being a general accountant/bookkeeper do? Then check out community colleges, regular colleges and programs in your area. Then start getting your training/education NOW. Your youngest child is 8 which means he/she is in school a good part of the day. You have time to get the training you need.

Or, do you have a degree already? If so go for a Master's degree in the same or a similar field. 

If you file for divorce before you finish your training/education then you can get what is called "interim alimony" until the divorce if final. You can get "rehabilitative alimony" until you finish your training/education and get a job. You might get alimony even after that for a some period of time that factors in your income.

So... the question now is what job/career field would you like to work in? The sky's the limit so let's see what you need to do.


----------



## Mrs.K

Casual Observer said:


> So this may seem a bit strange but not being happy in the marriage... have you defined what happiness would be? Does your husband have any idea of what that would take? Would you be better able to take on the problems in your marriage if your self-esteem was improved?
> 
> Would you feel comfortable laying down the law to your husband? He’s going to not take you very seriously at first, because you’ve brought it up before and not held him accountable. But it sounds like, if he did change, you could learn to like him again.
> 
> I’d look into a total nuclear effort to try and get things right with your relationship because of what you’ve already invested in it, the kids, and that you said you still love your husband. Define what will make you happy and see if he’s willing to be the person to help get you there. Place a time limit on it, and consequences if he falls off the porn wagon.
> 
> And, reading between the lines, maybe you’re LD , maybe you’ve accepted a nearly non-existent sex life, but perhaps that’s making you feel like you’re being rejected and that’s also reducing your self-esteem.



My self esteem is fine. I am not bothered by him simply looking at naked women. I am bothered by the fact that these actions have replaced sex for him. I used to initiate sex but stopped for a few reasons, one being I was the only one doing it, so it kind of makes you feel you're the only one wanting it, next reason is that when I would it would always end up in what he wanted and me making myself uncomfortable to make him happy and no matter what I did it could never just be good enough, he always had to push it one step further thinking he would change my mind about what I wanted and didn't want. How much should one person have to compromise? It's been years and years of me giving into things to keep him happy. It bothers me because he KNOWS why I am doing it and is just always pushing for more instead of appreciating my willingness to meet him halfway.

I have gone through periods of being LD but most of those involved pregnancy, child birth, having an infant and the death of one of our children in normal circumstances though I think I have more of a drive than he does.

I also am not treating him like he is a freak of nature. I am posting these things here to try and prepare for a conversation with him that DOESN'T include him feeling badly about himself. Last time we had a blow out over porn he admitted to be that it was an addiction to him and he needed to stop, for a while he did and every aspect of our marriage got better. I didn't judge him, I worked through it with him. It was his choice to start watching it again and leave me out of his sex life.


----------



## EleGirl

personofinterest said:


> Ugh, I'm sorry. That must be painful and exhausting.
> 
> I would ask at a consultation how that factors in with support. A person with those health challenges might be more entitled to support than an able-bodied person who could find a job anywhere that is hiring.
> 
> I have a friend in your situation who is married to a serial cheater  She is stuck because without his insurance, she cannot get the medicine that actually helps her, and she cannot work full time due to her serious health issues.
> 
> I hate to see these kinds of situations


Wouldn't she quality for things like Medicaid?


----------



## StarFires

Mrs.K said:


> And just to add another layer...
> 
> I suffer from 3 autoimmune diseases and I am on immune suppression drugs which make certain fields almost impossible for me to work in, and dangerous for my own health. Before anyone has to wonder I do want to point a couple of things out.. I do not use my illnesses to get out of things or for a reason to be lazy, I do not complain about them, in fact I push myself harder to prove that I am ok.


I've noticed that, for the most part, temp agencies tend to specialize in certain areas. For example, some mostly do labor, while others mostly garner office/clerk/adminstrative type jobs, and others still only work with executive type jobs. So don't dimiss the idea out of hand if you think there's no work available that you can physically do. I'm assuming, of course, that there are certain types of jobs that you are able to do. It appears from your posts that you're a good typist (I just don't know your speed), so I don't know if you experience any handicap in that area. I was just thinking that physical/manual labor type might be difficult for you, but that's not all the agencies have to offer.



Mrs.K said:


> It is pretty doubtful that he is hurting at all. If he is he is fine with hiding it or just not letting anything bother him. He is the one that needs the counseling, of course with marriage counseling we would do that together but for the first time in my life I have myself figured out. I know how I feel, and I know his actions are wrong and I deserve better than to be second fiddle to some dirty videos.


Yes, you certainly do deserve better. I'm just thinking his addiction is not generally porn but geared toward certain types of sexual acts, which you don't feel comfortable participating in. So, understand that one partner in a marriage almost always thinks the problem lies with the other partner, when they both have tendencies that need to be addressed because marriage takes two. Ideally, we marry the perfect person, but that almost never happens. Most commonly, both parties have different needs, but that doesn't make either of them right or wrong. What you find disgusting about his tastes are actually quite common in varying degrees of expression, and his particular need is probably the most common of all, at least the type I've heard about most often and is most commonly practiced.

If you have access to SHOWTIME (you can get it through your TV provider, through HULU, through Amazon Prime, or sign up directly with showtime.com), watch the TV show "Billions" to get an idea of your husband's sexual appetite. As in the show, many wives find a way to participate and indulge their husband in that respect. Or maybe just read about it to gain a better understanding. You might never become comfortable with the idea of participating (and that's okay), but you surely won't as long as you poopoo the idea of it and don't have any understanding about it. Out of all the different types of sexual appetites/tendencies/fetishes/etc. this isn't one that would be degrading to you or require that you sacrifice any part of yourself because it's about him sacrificing or submitting himself. I'm not trying to pressure you into doing anything. I'm just suggesting that learning about it might help you be a little less disgusted by it and possibly even warm to it a little bit. 

Again, it's okay if you don't want to. I'm kind of inclined to think I would feel the same as you, but thankfully I'm not faced with this kind of issue. But if you do, you just might find your understanding and possibly your participation even in limited capacity a better alternative to divorce. 

And who knows, you might really, really, really be surprised to discover there's something about it that you like. You might find a good compromise works well too, in that you both agree you will participate (even to limited degree) to indulge him on occasion but that all other times and in all other aspects of your marriage, he has to agree to be the type of husband you need and respect.


----------



## EleGirl

Mrs.K said:


> My self esteem is fine. I am not bothered by him simply looking at naked women. I am bothered by the fact that these actions have replaced sex for him. I used to initiate sex but stopped for a few reasons, one being I was the only one doing it, so it kind of makes you feel you're the only one wanting it, next reason is that when I would it would always end up in what he wanted and me making myself uncomfortable to make him happy and no matter what I did it could never just be good enough, he always had to push it one step further thinking he would change my mind about what I wanted and didn't want. How much should one person have to compromise? It's been years and years of me giving into things to keep him happy. It bothers me because he KNOWS why I am doing it and is just always pushing for more instead of appreciating my willingness to meet him halfway.
> 
> I have gone through periods of being LD but most of those involved pregnancy, child birth, having an infant and the death of one of our children in normal circumstances though I think I have more of a drive than he does.
> 
> I also am not treating him like he is a freak of nature. I am posting these things here to try and prepare for a conversation with him that DOESN'T include him feeling badly about himself. Last time we had a blow out over porn he admitted to be that it was an addiction to him and he needed to stop, for a while he did and every aspect of our marriage got better. I didn't judge him, I worked through it with him. It was his choice to start watching it again and leave me out of his sex life.


Due to the easy availability of internet porn this has become a big issue in a lot of marriages. It's a lot like any addiction. Basically it's a form of over-stimulation that sucks a guy in to the point that sex with a human just does not do it for them anymore. A good sex therapist would know how to help your husband break this addiction and get back to enjoying sex with a live woman. It usually takes 3 to 6 months of no porn and no sex. By the end of that the brain has sorted itself out.

If you have any desire to fix your marriage, get the books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs". Read them, do the work that they say to do. Then talk to him. Tell him that you know he is using porn and has no interest in sex because of it. But that there is a way to fix this, the two of you need to find a good marriage counselor who is a sex therapist. Also ask him to read the books with you and to do the work together that the books say to do.

The main point of the book "Love Busters" is that both people do things that kill the love their spouse has for them. These need to be identified and stopped. Then, once stopped, you two can work on meeting each others needs. So the book "Love Busters" has to be read and worked on first.

If you do this, give it 6 months and work on your ability to get a job too. At the end of 6 months evaluate whether or not things have gotten better, if they have, give it another 6 months. If they have not, file for divorce.


https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/


----------



## Mrs.K

EleGirl said:


> Due to the easy availability of internet porn this has become a big issue in a lot of marriages. It's a lot like any addiction. Basically it's a form of over-stimulation that sucks a guy in to the point that sex with a human just does not do it for them anymore. A good sex therapist would know how to help your husband break this addiction and get back to enjoying sex with a live woman. It usually takes 3 to 6 months of no porn and no sex. By the end of that the brain has sorted itself out.
> 
> If you have any desire to fix your marriage, get the books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs". Read them, do the work that they say to do. Then talk to him. Tell him that you know he is using porn and has no interest in sex because of it. But that there is a way to fix this, the two of you need to find a good marriage counselor who is a sex therapist. Also ask him to read the books with you and to do the work together that the books say to do.
> 
> The main point of the book "Love Busters" is that both people do things that kill the love their spouse has for them. These need to be identified and stopped. Then, once stopped, you two can work on meeting each others needs. So the book "Love Busters" has to be read and worked on first.
> 
> If you do this, give it 6 months and work on your ability to get a job too. At the end of 6 months evaluate whether or not things have gotten better, if they have, give it another 6 months. If they have not, file for divorce.
> 
> 
> https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/




Thank you for the recommendations, I will certainly do my homework on the things you have suggested. Like I had mentioned I have tried to meet him more than halfway but it is never good enough.. but I am always willing to come up with more compromises, I just wish he felt the same way on that end.


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## EleGirl

Mrs.K said:


> Thank you for the recommendations, I will certainly do my homework on the things you have suggested. Like I had mentioned I have tried to meet him more than halfway but it is never good enough.. but I am always willing to come up with more compromises, I just wish he felt the same way on that end.


If he realizes that you are going to file for divorce if he does not address the issues, he just might wake up. What you are talking about here is what is called the "Walkaway Wife Syndrome". Here's some info about it.


Get Relationship Advice and Solve Marriage Problems with Michele Weiner-Davis - Divorce Busting®

https://www.pursuegod.org/the-walkaway-wife-syndrome/


----------



## Mrs.K

As far as what I would like to do for work.. my plan has always been wanting to go back to school to be a grief counselor. If we can't work things out I honestly don't think I will ever be able to go back to school, work full time, take care of a home, 3 kids and manage 3 autoimmune diseases. Believe me, I know people do it but I also know my own limits.

Trust that I understand aside from this my husband has provided me with a gift I could never repay him for and that is all these years at home with the kids. No matter what happens I will never regret these years. I just can't keep going like we are now. I DO think it is unfair to him that I feel this way towards him and I think he is unfair to me for not just being honest, which yes.. at this point I am also not being honest with him and I understand that but I have tried that for years and it hasn't gotten us anywhere.


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## Taxman

Since I do not know where you live, my first suggestion is that you quietly look for an attorney. Usually, and please make this plain when you schedule the appointment, that the first consultation is both free and confidential. That is the best starting point in this process. There are any number of pitfalls, however, you are describing a classic alimony situation. Essentially, he will pay to end this marriage. You have followed the rules that I have imposed over the years. You offered to assist in supporting the household, consequently, you have a lack of either marketable skills, or skills that have not been taken out of mothballs for years. That translates to an unenviable position for your STBXH. 

A few pointers: Please keep this on the downlow. Do not let him know what you are thinking. Make yourself a file: In it will be copies of all bank statements, investments, trading slips and insurance policies. Make a note of all credit cards, if you can, please access his wallet, and see what he is carrying around with him. Get copies of as many statements as you can. Find out what you have in debt. Take an inventory of possessions. Find the deed to the house, and mortgage documents. You may not need this, however, it has always proved invaluable. If you keep your head about you while everyone else is losing theirs, you will succeed (paraphrasing Kipling)


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## CraigBesuden

If it is otherwise a great marriage, please give him the chance of counseling before going straight to divorce. Not “changing,” but counseling. If he can get help he may be able to change enough to save the marriage.


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## EleGirl

Mrs.K said:


> As far as what I would like to do for work.. my plan has always been wanting to go back to school to be a grief counselor. If we can't work things out I honestly don't think I will ever be able to go back to school, work full time, take care of a home, 3 kids and manage 3 autoimmune diseases. Believe me, I know people do it but I also know my own limits.


I get that it's hard to do all that, been there done it. I'm not going to tell you that you can do it if you just woman up because I don't know the extent of your health issues. But there is some part of it that you can do. And there are things that your husband is going to have to do. You will never know how much you can do until you start on that path.

How long would it take you to get through whatever training/education you need to be a grief counselor? Another thing to consider is how much does a grief counselor make? What sorts of places would hire you? What's the market like for grief counselors where you live?



Mrs.K said:


> Trust that I understand aside from this my husband has provided me with a gift I could never repay him for and that is all these years at home with the kids. No matter what happens I will never regret these years. I just can't keep going like we are now. I DO think it is unfair to him that I feel this way towards him and I think he is unfair to me for not just being honest, which yes.. at this point I am also not being honest with him and I understand that but I have tried that for years and it hasn't gotten us anywhere.


Did you read the link about the "walkaway wife syndrome"? It's all about women who tried to talk about it for years and their husband just does not get it. What would you have to do to get him to 'get it'?

I think that one of the things you need to do is to come up with a way to talk about it that he does understand. That's part of what the books I suggested are about. After you read those two books, there is another good one that I think works with those two books... "Divorce Busting". The author is the woman in the video for the "walkaway wife syndrome".

You say that you have come to a point where you really know yourself now. But I think that there is a step further that you need to get to, its the place in which you are so confident about yourself that you can communicate the issues to him and that you can tell him that you will leave if he does not wake up and hear the music. It's not an ultimatum. It's you telling him the facts as you see them.

You need to be happy within yourself first. That's where you need to put your energy right now. What do you do for yourself these days?


----------



## Mrs.K

CraigBesuden said:


> If it is otherwise a great marriage, please give him the chance of counseling before going straight to divorce. Not “changing,” but counseling. If he can get help he may be able to change enough to save the marriage.



I realize you are probably right in your suggestion. I am just so frustrated because he has gotten help before, two years ago when he vowed to give it up he had confided in someone at a men's retreat at church, from there he had been to a support group and he stopped going and I was fine with it because we were on a good path. I am not sure what happened within the past few months that has made him go back to it and slide into all prior behaviors but I am just tired of it and I feel like I don't have another round of this bull in me.

At the same time, I silently observed my household this evening (I have not said much to him at all.. usually he can't deal with me cold shouldering him and he just went with it, this tells me he has figured out that I know and he is waiting for me to let it go- he will be extra helpful etc) and I see all the good that is around me. He is a super engaged father, the kids think he is the best thing that has ever happened. It would appear that he is a wonderful husband to, he's good to me for the most part, there is no major fighting or tension between us in the home. So I started to wonder?? Could i really rock my kids worlds because their father won't have sex with me more than a few times a year? When it comes down to it, it seems selfish.


----------



## Mrs.K

EleGirl said:


> I get that it's hard to do all that, been there done it. I'm not going to tell you that you can do it if you just woman up because I don't know the extent of your health issues. But there is some part of it that you can do. And there are things that your husband is going to have to do. You will never know how much you can do until you start on that path.
> 
> How long would it take you to get through whatever training/education you need to be a grief counselor? Another thing to consider is how much does a grief counselor make? What sorts of places would hire you? What's the market like for grief counselors where you live?
> 
> 
> 
> Did you read the link about the "walkaway wife syndrome"? It's all about women who tried to talk about it for years and their husband just does not get it. What would you have to do to get him to 'get it'?
> 
> I think that one of the things you need to do is to come up with a way to talk about it that he does understand. That's part of what the books I suggested are about. After you read those two books, there is another good one that I think works with those two books... "Divorce Busting". The author is the woman in the video for the "walkaway wife syndrome".
> 
> You say that you have come to a point where you really know yourself now. But I think that there is a step further that you need to get to, its the place in which you are so confident about yourself that you can communicate the issues to him and that you can tell him that you will leave if he does not wake up and hear the music. It's not an ultimatum. It's you telling him the facts as you see them.
> 
> You need to be happy within yourself first. That's where you need to put your energy right now. What do you do for yourself these days?




Now that everyone is finally in bed I am going to follow that link and watch the video..

It would take too many years of schooling/training for what I want to do so if we were to split I would have to do something else. I am confident that I could swing doing it all but my worry would be that I would not do all of it WELL and the kids would lack attention and time from me. I do know I could probably get a very decent admin job for sure.

I am not sure that I am lacking any confidence in stating how I feel. I am not saying anything yet because I know he is going to lie to me, we will go many rounds before he says sorry, begs for forgiveness and he wears me down to just forget about it. I will say the majority of my time goes right into my family, cooking, cleaning, house projects etc, but I enjoy these things. I have always been so happy and felt so blessed to be home that none of the day to day stuff ever gets boring for me. However for small things I do make time to go to the gym, coffee with friends, get my nails done.. I am content for sure.

As far as my health issues, I have good days and awful days. I do not dwell on it but it is hard to make plans for the future, though not life threatening I could go downhill at any time, I also do worry for the future and uncovering later side effects of medications.

I feel guilty for even saying this but everything in my life makes me happy except for my relationship with him. Thinking about where we are right now makes me sad so I just put my energy and thoughts into other places


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## 3Xnocharm

Mrs.K said:


> At the same time, I silently observed my household this evening (I have not said much to him at all.. usually he can't deal with me cold shouldering him and he just went with it, this tells me he has figured out that I know and he is waiting for me to let it go- he will be extra helpful etc) and I see all the good that is around me. He is a super engaged father, the kids think he is the best thing that has ever happened. It would appear that he is a wonderful husband to, he's good to me for the most part, there is no major fighting or tension between us in the home. So I started to wonder?? Could i really rock my kids worlds because their father won't have sex with me more than a few times a year? When it comes down to it, it seems selfish.



This is the mind game we play with ourselves when we are coming to the realization that we are wanting out. You look around at everything and it just seems to good to pull that trigger. You can play this game with yourself for the next 25 years. Your husbands issue isn’t just porn. It goes deeper than that. The fact remains that even if he kicks the porn, he may still have desires that you are not ok with participating in. He needs to respect and be ok with that or it would need to end. 

Your kids deserve a happy mom. You aren’t being selfish. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## notmyjamie

Mrs.K said:


> I realize you are probably right in your suggestion. I am just so frustrated because he has gotten help before, two years ago when he vowed to give it up he had confided in someone at a men's retreat at church, from there he had been to a support group and he stopped going and I was fine with it because we were on a good path. I am not sure what happened within the past few months that has made him go back to it and slide into all prior behaviors but I am just tired of it and I feel like I don't have another round of this bull in me.
> 
> When he gave up the porn last time did he still want you to indulge his kinks of submission and bondage? If not, it could be that he simply couldn't handle not having that as part of his sex life and he went back to the porn as a way to bring that back into his life. This is just a guess on my part. I think maybe some counseling with a therapist who specializes in sexual matters would be a better idea for him than just a support group. I don't blame you if you don't want to go through all that again though.
> 
> So I started to wonder?? Could i really rock my kids worlds because their father won't have sex with me more than a few times a year? When it comes down to it, it seems selfish.
> 
> Well, as more and more time goes by that he's choosing to be with a video and not you, more and more of your self worth will be chipped away at. My situation was different, but I found that I was never more lonely in my life than when I was standing next to someone who was supposed to want me and love me and he just didn't. It damaged my soul in a way I'm not sure I'll ever come back from. So yes, I think it might be worth it. It was for me. But if you're not sure, tell him the truth, you will leave if he doesn't get his selfish ass to some therapy and learn to live with what he's got instead of always wanting more. He's damn lucky he's got you, who will try to meet him halfway. Many women would have run screaming from him years ago.


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## Mrs.K

The last time he gave it up after some time he did ask for certain things.. All things I was willing to do, like I have mentioned there were just a couple of things that were a hard no for me. I made myself available whether I was in the mood or not (and if I wasn't in the mood I never showed it, cause I didn't want him to feel bad) to help keep him where he said he wanted to be. I am honestly perplexed at what happened to make him go back. It has been a slow change in his actions and mood in the last 4 months or so.


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## notmyjamie

Mrs.K said:


> The last time he gave it up after some time he did ask for certain things.. All things I was willing to do, like I have mentioned there were just a couple of things that were a hard no for me. I made myself available whether I was in the mood or not (and if I wasn't in the mood I never showed it, cause I didn't want him to feel bad) to help keep him where he said he wanted to be. I am honestly perplexed at what happened to make him go back. It has been a slow change in his actions and mood in the last 4 months or so.


You could ask him. You said he's waiting for you to confront him...instead of blowing up at him, calmly ask him why? Then calmly tell him you're done. 

I know how hard this is for you. I'm sorry. *hugs*


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## Mrs.K

notmyjamie said:


> You could ask him. You said he's waiting for you to confront him...instead of blowing up at him, calmly ask him why? Then calmly tell him you're done.
> 
> I know how hard this is for you. I'm sorry. *hugs*



Thank you for the support! That is kind of why I am waiting, I want to make sure I can remain calm and I am not going to lie.. part of me likes that fact that he is sweating it out a bit, he is probably wondering when the heck I am going to just blow up at him. Or maybe he will start to think I just don't care anymore. Ideally since he knows that I know what has been going on I would like to see him start the conversation but I am very doubtful that will happen.

I am not claiming where I am in this moment is the right thing to do or even very mature.


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## badsanta

Mrs.K said:


> Yes since he has been heavy on the porn use we do not have sex, sometimes we do once every 3 months, sometimes it stretches to 6 months.


This is from another thread and I am replying here to avoid thread jacking (starting a discussion within another discussion). 

If your marriage is going up to six months without sex and you are in your thirties, then this is a SERIOUS problem. As you husband ages it may even get worse as his libido declines and he withdraws even further. 

You need to sit down and sort out what makes your marriage difficult. How much is the result of life being messy and there being very little quality time together due to work schedules? How much is a result of your personalities just not getting along that well (without placing blame on anyone)? What is within your power to change and what is not? You need to confront your husband and let him know exactly where your marriage stands and try to focus on a few positive things if you want him to make an effort to reconcile. 

Understanding everything in context, I think your first step should be to look for a job. This both helps you take a few steps toward gaining independence AND it possibly alleviates your husband's schedule to take more time off work for his own self development (hobby, exercise and efforts towards marriage counseling). If this happens and your husband uses some extra time to wallow in self pity, depression, and porn then you are more independent and ready to leave him. If your husband gets his act together, then that is a much more positive situation. 

In the meantime try and find opportunities for laughter here and there with your husband. When working through problems it helps sometimes to laugh at problems while working through them as opposed to being serious and upset. You probably should jokingly tell your husband he can watch all the porn he wants as long as he uses a blindfold. 

Switching topics a little, there was another wife that had problems with her husband using porn and things did get better. In one instance about a year into working on things, the wife decided to describe a porn movie to her husband (she just made it up and had not watched anything) as if she had watched it herself for foreplay. The husband responded so well to this, that awkwardly he got upset about it and withdrew again. Suddenly he now found himself feeling threatened by porn as if it offered his wife something he would not be able to provide and they got into ugly fights again. ...so that is the next kind of temper tantrum you have to look forwards to in your marriage if you start to work on things. A few steps forwards and a few steps backwards is always the name of the game. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## farsidejunky

Mrs.K said:


> It is pretty doubtful that he is hurting at all. If he is he is fine with hiding it or just not letting anything bother him. He is the one that needs the counseling, of course with marriage counseling we would do that together but for the first time in my life I have myself figured out. I know how I feel, and I know his actions are wrong and I deserve better than to be second fiddle to some dirty videos.


Speaking as someone who has struggled with porn in the past...hurt is part of what drove me towards it.

Not necessarily relationship pain, but pain from everyday life.

I'm not suggesting your husband's actions are excusable by any stretch. However, you would do well to stop assuming things that help fit the narrative you have (mostly legitimately) constructed.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Mrs.K

badsanta said:


> This is from another thread and I am replying here to avoid thread jacking (starting a discussion within another discussion).
> 
> 
> 
> If your marriage is going up to six months without sex and you are in your thirties, then this is a SERIOUS problem. As you husband ages it may even get worse as his libido declines and he withdraws even further.
> 
> 
> 
> You need to sit down and sort out what makes your marriage difficult. How much is the result of life being messy and there being very little quality time together due to work schedules? How much is a result of your personalities just not getting along that well (without placing blame on anyone)? What is within your power to change and what is not? You need to confront your husband and let him know exactly where your marriage stands and try to focus on a few positive things if you want him to make an effort to reconcile.
> 
> 
> 
> Understanding everything in context, I think your first step should be to look for a job. This both helps you take a few steps toward gaining independence AND it possibly alleviates your husband's schedule to take more time off work for his own self development (hobby, exercise and efforts towards marriage counseling). If this happens and your husband uses some extra time to wallow in self pity, depression, and porn then you are more independent and ready to leave him. If your husband gets his act together, then that is a much more positive situation.
> 
> 
> 
> In the meantime try and find opportunities for laughter here and there with your husband. When working through problems it helps sometimes to laugh at problems while working through them as opposed to being serious and upset. You probably should jokingly tell your husband he can watch all the porn he wants as long as he uses a blindfold.
> 
> 
> 
> Switching topics a little, there was another wife that had problems with her husband using porn and things did get better. In one instance about a year into working on things, the wife decided to describe a porn movie to her husband (she just made it up and had not watched anything) as if she had watched it herself for foreplay. The husband responded so well to this, that awkwardly he got upset about it and withdrew again. Suddenly he now found himself feeling threatened by porn as if it offered his wife something he would not be able to provide and they got into ugly fights again. ...so that is the next kind of temper tantrum you have to look forwards to in your marriage if you start to work on things. A few steps forwards and a few steps backwards is always the name of the game.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Badsanta





Not that anyone is implying anything but I do want to make it clear that I do not have any sort of aversion to working. I do work part time now, I don’t make a ton of money but it’s very flexible. Even though I have been home for 16 years I have not just taken, you know? I’ve babysat, cleaned houses and stuff to bring a little money in. I also take care of all the bills (it’s the way he has always wanted it) and household stuff and I’ve always been respectful of the money he makes. He often compliments me on it. 

So my kids are obviously on summer vacation right now but if I were to go out and get a full time job when they go back it wouldn’t make a difference to him as far as the hours that he works.. he would still be working the same amount and have the same commute. He doesn’t want a new job either. Two of the children would require after school care, the one who doesn’t could watch them but he just bought a car and started a job. 

Because I would still be the one home more that would leave me working a part time job (I won’t give up my current one) a full time job and full responsibility to the house, kids and their sports, home work and all activities. Then you add in the layers of my health issues on top of that and it makes for a very hard situation that I am not even sure would be doable. However... when we finally do talk I am going to ask him if he would like me to work full time. 

The more I think and my anger wears down a bit o am realizing what we need is counseling and not my foot out the door just yet. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Blondilocks

" He has gained a considerable amount of weight and that never even bothered me but what is too much for me is *the porn that I most recently found on a kindle in the bathroom closet.. and what he seems to be doing*."

OK, the first thing you need to do is have a convo wherein you state that you don't care what he does with his pecker; but, for God's sake don't leave evidence around where a kid can find it. Kids are nosy and curious and I can guarantee you that if you found it then a kid probably has, too.

Next, you need to realize that at your kids' ages they can handle most of the household chores themselves. It isn't all on you and they need to learn anyway in order to be fully functioning adults.

Third, stop tiptoeing around the fact that your sex life sucks. You deserve a satisfying sex life, too, and if he isn't up to the job then you will find someone who is. 

Fourth, realize that you are not his therapist and it isn't your place to fix him. He either gets help or he gets out.


----------



## badsanta

Mrs.K said:


> The more I think and my anger wears down a bit o am realizing what we need is counseling and not my foot out the door just yet.


If you have time and enjoy reading, there are a lot of good books on counseling that you may want to start with before making the next steps. A good book (rather wordy and at times dense with psychology models) would be "Passionate Marriage" by Schnarch. Also be sure to look into resources suggested by moderators, particularly EleGirl as she has a wealth of knowledge.

When I was struggling in marriage, I found that educating myself as much as possible by reading relationship self help books (particularly those written by someone with a PHD) to be really helpful. In my marriage I was not a good listener or communicator (still have that problem to some degree), but once I had a solid grasp on certain concepts and the ways to address certain issues things started to get much better. 

For example when you confront your husband, you may want to first consider trying to understand and validate the way he feels about the state of the marriage before you begin to address how you are feeling and what needs to change. That way he knows you understand his point of view and will hopefully listen instead of getting defensive once you transition to addressing the problems. 

Generally speaking I think what makes some people horrible listeners (that would be me by the way!) is that when they encounter a problem, they immediately go into damage control mode and then combine that with emotionally-reactive problem solving. Both of those ways of thinking are inherently very defensive. It is actually very difficult for some people to pause, listen, acknowledge a problem and appropriately assess the severity of a situation calmly before determining ways to remedy a problem.

Sometimes you might want to be very up front when talking to your husband about issues that you do NOT want to solve problems while talking, but instead simply acknowledge them and then spend a few days thinking about how to address them. This way you can each organize your thoughts and later have a meaningful discussion that is about helping one another since the problems themselves have already been confronted and pointed out to each other. 

AND THE GOLDEN RULE FOR STARTING A MARITAL DEBATE: Eat first, then argue!!!!!

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## Yeswecan

Mrs.K said:


> He has ZERO idea that I am feeling this way. I honestly don't even know how I would bring it up because he would think I was just kidding.. I think he feels a lot of power in the fact that I couldn't keep up with the house and all the bills without him.


You must tell him. Your H is not a mind reader. When you do and your H laughs it off....advise you are considering D. But, mean it when you say it. 

Further, alimony(child support). You are not powerless at all. You sell the current home and find a place you can afford.


----------



## Yeswecan

Mrs.K said:


> Personofinterest- Thank you so much for all your thoughts. I truly appreciate them. You bring up a lot of GOOD questions, and the main one is visitation and telling the kids.
> I can't even imagine telling the kids or having to share birthdays and holidays, weekends etc. However if he can't work with me on certain things I am sure there will be no other choice eventually.
> 
> I also don't know how it would work out with the house either, my kids love this house, I love this house but I could never afford it on my own. I had thought about if it ever came to splitting up we could let the kids continue to live their lives and split time in the house, it seems to work out OK for a lot of people.
> 
> I feel very conflicted. I can't imagine not being married to him anymore. I don't like him very much right now but I do love him. I also can't imagine living the rest of my life this way either. The kids are getting older and more independent, eventually it will just be the two of us but I just *can't compete with his addiction*. Been there, done that.


That is the crux of the problem. Your H needs to be enlightened to why this is an addiction and relationship killer. Get a few books on it. Read them yourself. Then drop them on you H lap. Advise he needs to read them. You will discuss what is in the books when he has read them.


----------



## Adelais

I empathize with you. Porn affects more than just the user. Here is a website that goes into depth about the issues caused by porn use.

https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/videos-articles/


----------



## SunWhiskey

personofinterest said:


> Except that her husband knows FULL WELL how she feels about his porn addiction, and he is doing it AGAIN.
> 
> Yes, the OP should be very upfront about her feelings, but he cannot honestly claim ignorance when he is choosing something he KNOWS hurts her AND he is deceiving her about it.
> 
> That's like cheating and then saying "well you should have TOLD me that was a dealbreaker!"
> 
> Some things are just obvious.


Obvious to you does not mean obvious to everyone else.


----------



## SunWhiskey

Blondilocks said:


> " He has gained a considerable amount of weight and that never even bothered me but what is too much for me is *the porn that I most recently found on a kindle in the bathroom closet.. and what he seems to be doing*."
> 
> OK, the first thing you need to do is have a convo wherein you state that you don't care what he does with his pecker; but, for God's sake don't leave evidence around where a kid can find it. Kids are nosy and curious and I can guarantee you that if you found it then a kid probably has, too.
> 
> Next, you need to realize that at your kids' ages they can handle most of the household chores themselves. It isn't all on you and they need to learn anyway in order to be fully functioning adults.
> 
> Third, stop tiptoeing around the fact that your sex life sucks. You deserve a satisfying sex life, too, and if he isn't up to the job then you will find someone who is.
> 
> Fourth, realize that you are not his therapist and it isn't your place to fix him. He either gets help or he gets out.




First, she made it very clear she does care what he does with his pecker.


Third, an ultimatum isn't the way to get what you want. Solving the problem with open communication.

Fourth, she hasn't communicated anything with him in a way he has taken seriously because she sucks at communicating.


----------



## Blondilocks

SunWhiskey said:


> First, she made it very clear she does care what he does with his pecker.
> 
> 
> Third, an ultimatum isn't the way to get what you want. Solving the problem with open communication.
> 
> Fourth, she hasn't communicated anything with him in a way he has taken seriously because she sucks at communicating.


Thank you for your commentary. Try addressing the OP.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

SunWhiskey said:


> First, she made it very clear she does care what he does with his pecker.
> 
> 
> Third, an ultimatum isn't the way to get what you want. Solving the problem with open communication.
> 
> Fourth, she hasn't communicated anything with him in a way he has taken seriously because she sucks at communicating.


She has communicated at least well enough that he knows, that she knows and is pissed about, the porn again. He is waiting for that shoe to drop. He does it anyway. Also sometimes an ultimatum is the only thing that actually has any kind of affect on some people, sadly...


----------



## badsanta

Blondilocks said:


> Thank you for your commentary. Try addressing the OP.


 @Blondilocks when someone is redirecting their frustrations and attacking someone's comments defensively as opposed to listening and acknowledging problems... Do you really want to direct that person to the OP? 

Hmmmm... I guess that would be like target practice for her to try and learn how to effectively deal with a husband that gets defensive about the topic the few times she has tried to address it. OK, I see a lot of wisdom there. Give me a minute to stand back and get out of the way....



PULL!!!


----------



## Mrs.K

SunWhiskey said:


> First, she made it very clear she does care what he does with his pecker.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Third, an ultimatum isn't the way to get what you want. Solving the problem with open communication.
> 
> 
> 
> Fourth, she hasn't communicated anything with him in a way he has taken seriously because she sucks at communicating.





I am not sure how I suck at communicating. We have gone through this many times he knows how I feel. 

This has ZERO to do with me caring about what he does with his pecker, although I suppose I do. I wouldn’t be happy with him if he used it to have an affair and I’m also not pleased that his hand and his videos have replaced sex for us- which by the way I wasn’t given any say in.. he knows I wish things were different for us in that area cause I’ve told him.

In the past he has taken it very seriously, as have I taken it seriously when he told me he was addicted to it. 

There has been plenty of open communication but thanks for your incredibly unhelpful words!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Adelais

Mrs.K said:


> I am not sure how I suck at communicating. We have gone through this many times he knows how I feel.
> 
> This has ZERO to do with me caring about what he does with his pecker, although I suppose I do. I wouldn’t be happy with him if he used it to have an affair and I’m also not pleased that his hand and his videos have replaced sex for us- which by the way I wasn’t given any say in.. he knows I wish things were different for us in that area cause I’ve told him.
> 
> In the past he has taken it very seriously, as have I taken it seriously when he told me he was addicted to it.
> 
> There has been plenty of open communication but thanks for your incredibly unhelpful words!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have no doubt you have told him how you feel about his activities many times over the years.

If you want to give it one more try, you can tell him your boundary which he will see as a threat, until he receives divorce papers to sign, because it wasn't a threat but a boundary he refused to acknowledge or act on.


----------



## Blondilocks

badsanta said:


> @Blondilocks when someone is redirecting their frustrations and attacking someone's comments defensively as opposed to listening and acknowledging problems... Do you really want to direct that person to the OP?
> 
> Hmmmm... I guess that would be like target practice for her to try and learn how to effectively deal with a husband that gets defensive about the topic the few times she has tried to address it. OK, I see a lot of wisdom there. Give me a minute to stand back and get out of the way....
> 
> 
> 
> PULL!!!


Single barrel? Amateur!


----------



## Casual Observer

Mrs.K said:


> I am not sure how I suck at communicating. We have gone through this many times he knows how I feel.
> 
> ....
> 
> In the past he has taken it very seriously, as have I taken it seriously when he told me he was addicted to it.
> 
> There has been plenty of open communication but thanks for your incredibly unhelpful words!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There is some validity to the notion that, whatever you have been doing up to now, the fact that it hasn't worked is an indication of either a failure to communicate *or* that *what* is being communicated is inadequate.

You had no trouble at all coming to TAM and announcing that you're considering "leaving" the marriage. But subsequent posts indicate that's not really the case. Given a choice, you'd rather have things fixed up than leave. You could have more accurately titled your thread "Can I rescue my husband from porn, or is my marriage doomed?" 

So one wonders if this is how you communicate with your husband. Because, if so, if he's used to you starting out "big" but the boldness of the message goes out the window with the details, there's little incentive for him to change. He sees you talk big but without real substance.


----------



## MattMatt

Mrs.K said:


> My self esteem is fine. I am not bothered by him simply looking at naked women. I am bothered by the fact that these actions have replaced sex for him. I used to initiate sex but stopped for a few reasons, one being I was the only one doing it, so it kind of makes you feel you're the only one wanting it, next reason is that when I would it would always end up in what he wanted and me making myself uncomfortable to make him happy and no matter what I did it could never just be good enough, he always had to push it one step further thinking he would change my mind about what I wanted and didn't want. How much should one person have to compromise? It's been years and years of me giving into things to keep him happy. It bothers me because he KNOWS why I am doing it and is just always pushing for more instead of appreciating my willingness to meet him halfway.
> 
> I have gone through periods of being LD but most of those involved pregnancy, child birth, having an infant and the death of one of our children in normal circumstances though I think I have more of a drive than he does.
> 
> I also am not treating him like he is a freak of nature. I am posting these things here to try and prepare for a conversation with him that DOESN'T include him feeling badly about himself. Last time we had a blow out over porn he admitted to be that it was an addiction to him and he needed to stop, for a while he did and every aspect of our marriage got better. I didn't judge him, I worked through it with him. It was his choice to start watching it again and leave me out of his sex life.


With your multiple autoimmune conditions, does he perhaps feel like a heel for even thinking about having sex with you? He might think of you (subconsciously) of being like a delicate and beautiful glass doll? 

I think you need couple's counselling to try to figure your joint and individual stuff out.

This reason I mention this idea is because I have been there and felt guilty about wanting sex with my wife when she's been particularly ill.


----------



## Mrs.K

Casual Observer said:


> There is some validity to the notion that, whatever you have been doing up to now, the fact that it hasn't worked is an indication of either a failure to communicate *or* that *what* is being communicated is inadequate.
> 
> 
> 
> You had no trouble at all coming to TAM and announcing that you're considering "leaving" the marriage. But subsequent posts indicate that's not really the case. Given a choice, you'd rather have things fixed up than leave. You could have more accurately titled your thread "Can I rescue my husband from porn, or is my marriage doomed?"
> 
> 
> 
> So one wonders if this is how you communicate with your husband. Because, if so, if he's used to you starting out "big" but the boldness of the message goes out the window with the details, there's little incentive for him to change. He sees you talk big but without real substance.




I was angry. 

It has nothing to do with my communication, it has to do with his selfishness and addiction.

However I won’t live like this forever, me leaving won’t be off the table. But when you’re angry and multiple people suggest counseling and you calm down a bit you realize that yeah, counseling would come before leaving 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mrs.K

MattMatt said:


> With your multiple autoimmune conditions, does he perhaps feel like a heel for even thinking about having sex with you? He might think of you (subconsciously) of being like a delicate and beautiful glass doll?
> 
> I think you need couple's counselling to try to figure your joint and individual stuff out.
> 
> This reason I mention this idea is because I have been there and felt guilty about wanting sex with my wife when she's been particularly ill.





So the few times every once in a blue moon that he initiates sex he will first ask how I’m feeling but this has been an ongoing issue since before I had any symptoms or a diagnosis.

I’ve brought up counseling before and let it go because behaviors change as soon as I mention it. Sometimes I wonder if I should go by myself first and then ask him to come eventually? Or is that unfair for me to do all the choosing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Blondilocks

{sigh}

I guess there are some people who just don't believe in the fact that you can lead a horse to water; but, you can't make him drink. Short of water-boarding the poor critter, I don't know what one can do.

Maybe she can try speaking Greek to him or speaking in tongues. It's obvious that speaking in his native language is ineffective because he doesn't _WANT to LISTEN._


----------



## MattMatt

Mrs.K said:


> So the few times every once in a blue moon that he initiates sex he will first ask how I’m feeling but this has been an ongoing issue since before I had any symptoms or a diagnosis.
> 
> I’ve brought up counseling before and let it go because behaviors change as soon as I mention it. Sometimes I wonder if I should go by myself first and then ask him to come eventually? Or is that unfair for me to do all the choosing?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You seem to be a proactive person so go for it! If he follows, then that's good. If he doesn't then that's his loss.


----------



## Casual Observer

Mrs.K said:


> So the few times every once in a blue moon that he initiates sex he will first ask how I’m feeling but this has been an ongoing issue since before I had any symptoms or a diagnosis.
> 
> I’ve brought up counseling before and let it go because behaviors change as soon as I mention it. Sometimes I wonder if I should go by myself first and then ask him to come eventually? Or is that unfair for me to do all the choosing?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He has proven his "choice" is to stay addicted. That's not quite correct; since he's addicted, it's not even a choice really. He's in a place he likely can't get out of on his own. His mind does everything possible to minimize the consequences of his actions. That's going to take some very strong action, on your part, to get past that. You have to ratchet up the consequences dramatically. 

It's also important to recognize that not everybody is affected by pornography this way. Just as not everyone who drinks becomes an alcoholic.

Me? For the life of me, I cannot understand why someone would prefer porn when the real thing is at hand. Makes no sense. If I'm getting plenty of physical attention from my wife, I could care less about porn. I think most people are that way.


----------



## Mrs.K

Casual Observer said:


> He has proven his "choice" is to stay addicted. That's not quite correct; since he's addicted, it's not even a choice really. He's in a place he likely can't get out of on his own. His mind does everything possible to minimize the consequences of his actions. That's going to take some very strong action, on your part, to get past that. You have to ratchet up the consequences dramatically.
> 
> 
> 
> It's also important to recognize that not everybody is affected by pornography this way. Just as not everyone who drinks becomes an alcoholic.
> 
> 
> 
> Me? For the life of me, I cannot understand why someone would prefer porn when the real thing is at hand. Makes no sense. If I'm getting plenty of physical attention from my wife, I could care less about porn. I think most people are that way.





I do know that, I of course will always be against porn *for our household* but I know plenty of people can view it with no issues. When we first got together it didn’t bother me, I assumed it was something all guys did. It didn’t bother me until all the issues it has caused came up.

I do understand that a true addiction can’t be stopped easily. This is why my emotions flip flop back and forth so much. I wish I could just figure out what made him go back to it.

When I look at him part of me wants to punch him in the face the other part of me wants to hug him.

I had assumed tonight would finally be when we talk, no more cold shoulder, no more pretending. I had a meeting this evening so I got home about an hour after him, we haven’t spoken a word about it. He is aware that it’s coming. On Tuesday nights he gives me an injection so when I came in I got everything ready for that he did the shot and announced he was going to bed.

I wasn’t going to say a word but I’ve been waiting a couple days now. So I text him and said “you know very well why I am upset, I’m a little disappointed that you didn’t send the kids off so we could address it” he replied back that he is sorry but he is too tired (he does have a 12 hour shift ahead of him tomorrow.. his work has 2 people out on medical leave) and we will talk tomorrow. I’m not sure if it is a good or bad thing that we have both had a couple of days... however it does look like he is skipping the part where he lies and denies it at least. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MEM2020

Mrs. K,
Your narrative is clear and concise, and your tone has the clear ring of a mentally healthy person dealing with a very selfish partner. Your H likely believes that his status as sole breadwinner makes him invulnerable. 

If you move out of the bedroom, you will likely shake his sense of invulnerability. But don’t start a process you aren’t willing to finish....




Mrs.K said:


> My self esteem is fine. I am not bothered by him simply looking at naked women. I am bothered by the fact that these actions have replaced sex for him. I used to initiate sex but stopped for a few reasons, one being I was the only one doing it, so it kind of makes you feel you're the only one wanting it, next reason is that when I would it would always end up in what he wanted and me making myself uncomfortable to make him happy and no matter what I did it could never just be good enough, he always had to push it one step further thinking he would change my mind about what I wanted and didn't want. How much should one person have to compromise? It's been years and years of me giving into things to keep him happy. It bothers me because he KNOWS why I am doing it and is just always pushing for more instead of appreciating my willingness to meet him halfway.
> 
> I have gone through periods of being LD but most of those involved pregnancy, child birth, having an infant and the death of one of our children in normal circumstances though I think I have more of a drive than he does.
> 
> I also am not treating him like he is a freak of nature. I am posting these things here to try and prepare for a conversation with him that DOESN'T include him feeling badly about himself. Last time we had a blow out over porn he admitted to be that it was an addiction to him and he needed to stop, for a while he did and every aspect of our marriage got better. I didn't judge him, I worked through it with him. It was his choice to start watching it again and leave me out of his sex life.


----------



## SunWhiskey

3Xnocharm said:


> She has communicated at least well enough that he knows, that she knows and is pissed about, the porn again. He is waiting for that shoe to drop. He does it anyway. Also sometimes an ultimatum is the only thing that actually has any kind of affect on some people, sadly...


See OP's very first post. I'll put it in bold for you.




badsanta said:


> @Blondilocks when someone is redirecting their frustrations and attacking someone's comments defensively as opposed to listening and acknowledging problems... Do you really want to direct that person to the OP?
> 
> Hmmmm... I guess that would be like target practice for her to try and learn how to effectively deal with a husband that gets defensive about the topic the few times she has tried to address it. OK, I see a lot of wisdom there. Give me a minute to stand back and get out of the way....
> 
> 
> 
> PULL!!!



I'm perfectly happy now. Just because my advice rubs you the wrong way, doesn't mean it's wrong. 






Mrs.K said:


> I am not sure how I suck at communicating. We have gone through this many times he knows how I feel.
> 
> 
> There has been plenty of open communication but thanks for your incredibly unhelpful words!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Please reference your original post below.



Casual Observer said:


> There is some validity to the notion that, whatever you have been doing up to now, the fact that it hasn't worked is an indication of either a failure to communicate *or* that *what* is being communicated is inadequate.
> 
> You had no trouble at all coming to TAM and announcing that you're considering "leaving" the marriage. But subsequent posts indicate that's not really the case. Given a choice, you'd rather have things fixed up than leave. You could have more accurately titled your thread "Can I rescue my husband from porn, or is my marriage doomed?"
> 
> So one wonders if this is how you communicate with your husband. Because, if so, if he's used to you starting out "big" but the boldness of the message goes out the window with the details, there's little incentive for him to change. He sees you talk big but without real substance.


Yup.




Mrs.K said:


> *He has ZERO idea that I am feeling this way. I honestly don't even know how I would bring it up because he would think I was just kidding..* I think he feels a lot of power in the fact that I couldn't keep up with the house and all the bills without him.


For everyone in the back who can't read real good...mhhhmmm.


----------



## Mrs.K

He has zero idea how I am feeling though because at that point I had made the choice to keep my feelings to myself and figure out how I wanted to proceed. 

And yes.. if I ever told him I was leaving he would laugh or say "ok then, go" because he just wouldn't believe that it was really happening. As @meme2020 pointed out he feels like he has a lot of leverage as the main breadwinner in the house. Just because he would not take me seriously doesn't mean I am not expressing myself in a clear way.

I am not "afraid" to approach him but I know exactly how it will go. I guess we will see tonight when we finally talk.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Tell him in no uncertain terms that unless he gets help with his porn addiction then you are divorcing him. If he refuses and tells you to go, then start the ball rolling the next morning. Make sure your actions back up your words and follow through.


----------



## Blondilocks

SunWhiskey said:


> See OP's very first post. I'll put it in bold for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm perfectly happy now. *Just because my advice rubs you the wrong way, doesn't mean it's wrong.
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please reference your original post below.
> 
> 
> 
> Yup.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For everyone in the back who can't read real good...mhhhmmm.


OK, so far you have yet to offer the OP advice. All you've done is latch on to other's posts to make passive-aggressive snotty jabs which is why I suggested you try addressing the OP. 

Try sitting closer to the front.

Mrs. K, you have my heartfelt sympathy in dealing with this. Good luck tonight.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Blondilocks said:


> OK, so far you have yet to offer the OP advice. All you've done is latch on to other's posts to make passive-aggressive snotty jabs which is why I suggested you try addressing the OP.


This seems to be a THING here lately...


----------



## WorkingWife

StarFires said:


> What do courts have to do with whether a SAHM gets a job? What is the court's expectation that "you work full time"? Why do they expect it?
> 
> I've never heard of anything like that. Please explain because you left it open-ended.


I know in California the court will order you to go get a job. If you don't get one, I don't know what they can/will do, but it's like unemployment -- you have to show that you are trying.

You'll get alimony regardless, especially if you have been married 10 years or longer -- then Alimony can go for life. However, the courts goal is to get both parties financially independent and they will revisit and alimony as your own income increases.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

WorkingWife said:


> StarFires said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do courts have to do with whether a SAHM gets a job? What is the court's expectation that "you work full time"? Why do they expect it?
> 
> I've never heard of anything like that. Please explain because you left it open-ended.
> 
> 
> 
> I know in California the court will order you to go get a job. If you don't get one, I don't know what they can/will do, but it's like unemployment -- you have to show that you are trying.
> 
> You'll get alimony regardless, especially if you have been married 10 years or longer -- then Alimony can go for life. However, the courts goal is to get both parties financially independent and they will revisit and alimony as your own income increases.
Click to expand...

Alimony for life?? SMDH...


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Mrs.K said:


> He has zero idea how I am feeling though because at that point I had made the choice to keep my feelings to myself and figure out how I wanted to proceed.
> 
> And yes.. if I ever told him I was leaving he would laugh or say "ok then, go" because he just wouldn't believe that it was really happening. As @meme2020 pointed out *he feels like he has a lot of leverage as the main breadwinner in the house. *Just because he would not take me seriously doesn't mean I am not expressing myself in a clear way.
> 
> I am not "afraid" to approach him but I know exactly how it will go. I guess we will see tonight when we finally talk.


This is reprehensible behavior. It is disrespectful and unloving. This is the worst of male behavior and exactly why the good ol' days weren't always so good.... when economics simply gave the man power and he had little incentive to treat his captive like a true partner. 

I wish you the best in your talk.


----------



## Ursula

personofinterest said:


> First, I am not interested in having my statements poked with holes (as you tend to do). But yes, the courts, at least around me, do not smile on a woman who does not even TRY to find full time work, expecting her ex to take full care of both her and children. Part of the sacrifice when one divorces is sacrificing the luxury of staying home 24/7. The OP may get high alimony for a couple of years, but that is just postponing the inevitable. Most courts are moving toward expecting the SAHM to make a good faith effort to be somewhat financially independent (with the exception of child support).
> 
> Again, I am not all-knowing. Some states may be different. So I'm not going down a rabbit trail or doing anyone else's work for them.


This is the same in Canada, from my understanding


----------



## Affaircare

Mrs.K said:


> I would like to hear from some women who have left their husbands after spending just about their entire adult life as a housewife.
> 
> I have been a stay at home mom for SIXTEEN years. I work a part time job for our church which wouldn't pay for much at all.
> 
> Until very recently I have never seriously considered separation or divorce because I don't know how I would make it.. I still don't. Kids are 8,11 and 16 and have never known anything but having me at home, at every school and sporting event. They are my entire life and that change alone would about kill me.
> 
> BUT I am not happy in my marriage, I haven't been in a long time. My husband is addicted to porn and lying. I feel no attraction to him anymore because of these behaviors. I can't even stand to be in the same room with him anymore.
> 
> He has ZERO idea that I am feeling this way. I honestly don't even know how I would bring it up because he would think I was just kidding.. I think he feels a lot of power in the fact that I couldn't keep up with the house and all the bills without him.


 @Mrs.K, 

First, thanks for filling in some of the blanks so we know a little more about what's going on and why you're not happy. You are there and we are not, but I think we get an overall view of the situation. 

Second, sorry people replied to each other and not to you. For some reason that seems to be happening a lot lately. I'd recommend you just ignore it, but that's only my suggestion, not a requirement or anything. Take it with a grain of salt. 

Third, speaking of "grains of salt" I want you to know that even though you've presented your side as clearly and factually as possible, I am aware that there is another side to the story and that most likely his side is quite different than your side. That's only because it's human nature to make oneself "look good" whilst making the spouse "look bad" (super general, generic terms there)...and that's okay. I know it exists and so part of me is trying to bear in mind what your husband's side might be as well. 

Fourth, to answer your questions, I have been divorced but it wasn't after 16 years of being a SAHM. I had two elementary-aged children when my first husband cheated on me and refused to stop cheating. We owned our own business together, but I worked around the kids...so I walked them to school, then came into the office and did administration and bookkeeping until 3pm...walked them home and did some work while they did homework at the kitchen table...made dinner and got them in bed...then worked some more from 9pm to noon. I was out of the workforce and self-employed for about 10 years, and my exH made roughly $6k/mo while I made $2k/mo. 

When we divorced, my exH "took off" to be with his mistress (as in, moved to another state), and without him the business could not run, so I was with no way to provide for myself and the kids. Like you, I have an autoimmune disease (RA), so it wasn't as if my options were limitless...BUT I have skills that are very marketable: bookkeeping, administrative assistant, business office manager, and LOTS of computer skill. So when we divorced, I didn't ask for alimony. I figured I was fairly able-bodied and would find a job and provide even if it was poorer than we had been. If I had asked for it, I believe the prevailing ruling was a certain amount per month for a certain number of years in order for you to get training/get on your own feet--then you're own provision is up to you. So for example, the judge would consider that my exH would likely still be able to earn $6k/mo compared to my ability to earn $2k/mo and say that he should pay $1.5k/mo for 4 years so that he'd average at $4.5k/mo and I'd average $3.5k/mo for the amount of time it might take me to go back to college and get some degree or training that would result in better employment chance for me. THEN, after the 4 years, it would be reviewed...because he might still only be able to earn $6k but I'd be able to earn $4k now... Make sense? 

BUT I DID ASK FOR CHILD SUPPORT!! Now, my thought there was that he made the kids with me, and it was fair and reasonable for him to do his share financially to care for the kids. It was back in the 90's but he paid about $800/kid I believe, and what I did (so he'd know what it was used for) was that I put that money straight to the house payment. That way, I wasn't frittering it and he knew the money was literally putting a roof over the kids' heads. Next, we did agree to split costs 50/50 but you know how kids are: "Mom, I need a baseball mit" "Mom, we have a field trip tomorrow and it cost $10" "Mom, it's time to join the football team and sign up costs $XXX" etc. All those nickles and dimes drove my exH CRAZY so I agree for him to pay the entry fee for sports (one son did football...the other baseball) and equipment, or entry fee for something like "drama club" or those kinds of clubs... and I would do all the nickel and dime field trips, "I need ___ by tomorrow!" and drama club costumes. In the end, it was roughly equal, and it was a way that he felt like he could "plan for it" and I was okay being more flexible. 

Lastly I'll mention this: prior to my divorce, we lived in a 4000 sqft dream house with a large yard and in-ground swimming pool. We both had 2 year old cars, and honestly we were rich. Because he chose to continue cheating, the kids and I had to move from your upper-middleclass home and sell it, and that was sad. But we found a cute little townhome near their school (closer to their friends) with a community pool, and we could afford it, AND it was OURS so we never felt powerless again. It couldn't be taken from us or used as a threat in any way. So my guess is that if you do choose to separate/divorce, you will very likely have a change in your life circumstances. You may not get to keep the house and get alimony and "have the exact same lifestyle"...but you know what? That's okay! Maybe you and your children will have to move and sell your current house, but wherever you go, look together and choose it together so that your new place has all the little things each one of you finds necessary. You may not have the same financial blessings that you have now, but you know what? That's okay! Love is free and making cheap dinners together is free and having your kids' friends over without hubby complaining about it is free...a very happy, good life can be had for no cost! You may not be able to just buy what you want, when you want, but you know what? That's okay! Learning to save is a good lesson. Postponing gratification is a good lesson. Learning the value of an item is a good lesson. It's all okay!

Hope this helps you to maybe envision what it might be like...


----------



## LisaDiane

Mrs.K said:


> He has zero idea how I am feeling though because at that point I had made the choice to keep my feelings to myself and figure out how I wanted to proceed.
> 
> And yes.. if I ever told him I was leaving he would laugh or say "ok then, go" because he just wouldn't believe that it was really happening. As @meme2020 pointed out he feels like he has a lot of leverage as the main breadwinner in the house. Just because he would not take me seriously doesn't mean I am not expressing myself in a clear way.
> 
> I am not "afraid" to approach him but I know exactly how it will go. I guess we will see tonight when we finally talk.



Do people still give online "hugs" in messages...?? I don't care, I'm doing it anyway!..... ((((((((((((((Mrs.K))))))))))))))

This is how my first husband responded to me when his drinking started to get out-of-hand, and I would try to let him know how unhappy it made me -- I was willing to leave over it if he didn't stop, or if it got worse. He would actually laugh and say "don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!" - it was SO demoralizing and made me feel so ALONE (and angry). I, too, was a stay-at-home mom, and my kids were LITTLE - 4, 6, 8 - and I was worried about leaving and what would happen to us. 

But I KNEW that no matter what I decided to do, I COULD do it! It would all depend on what sacrifices I was willing to make - to stay and put up with it, or go and start a new life; both would require sacrifices from me, and I just had to decide which ones I wanted to deal with. I was totally willing to tear my whole life apart and struggle with that, instead of struggle with the crap he was giving me....and he made it easy when he became drunk and violent (instead of just drunk and annoying) - NO more chances after that. 
And it was difficult, for sure, but I transferred the effort I used to put into my marriage and husband into working on solving the issues in my new life, and it was possible to survive and even thrive! I gave up A TON of "comforts" - we spent the whole first summer camping in a tent because I had no money - and there were other sacrifices too, but they were WAY better than the sacrifices I would have had to make if I stayed! I owned my choice to leave, and stubbornly plowed on, and I DO NOT regret it!!

I am NOT telling you to leave or anything, though - this addiction stuff is so hard to beat, and I'm sure your husband is ashamed and feels bad, even if he doesn't act like it outwardly. If you can help him stop this (IF he is willing), I think you guys could come out of this stronger and with more understanding of eachother, and more love! I wonder if you wrote him a letter about how you feel and either let him read it tonight or read it to him, if he could "hear" you better - I do that with my husband now, and it's been a very helpful way to communicate things that are scary/intimidating to TALK about, for both of us. I think you should definitely be in counseling, too, even if he changes his behavior without it -- maybe that's one of the reasons he got pulled back into it....this is a life-long struggle, it can get much easier to control, but it's always THERE. Also, if he's using it as a coping mechanism, he needs counseling to help him find other ways to deal with things. There are also some great books and websites dedicated to helping couples struggling with porn addiction and it's consequences.

These are only MY thoughts (just some of them!) -- I can't imagine having to face something like this, yet you seem so strong and brave, and I really admire you for that!! I will be thinking about you tonight, hoping that your husband will listen to you and CARE about how you feel, and that you guys can start moving towards real healing!!!


----------



## Mrs.K

LisaDiane said:


> Do people still give online "hugs" in messages...?? I don't care, I'm doing it anyway!..... ((((((((((((((Mrs.K))))))))))))))
> 
> This is how my first husband responded to me when his drinking started to get out-of-hand, and I would try to let him know how unhappy it made me -- I was willing to leave over it if he didn't stop, or if it got worse. He would actually laugh and say "don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!" - it was SO demoralizing and made me feel so ALONE (and angry). I, too, was a stay-at-home mom, and my kids were LITTLE - 4, 6, 8 - and I was worried about leaving and what would happen to us.
> 
> But I KNEW that no matter what I decided to do, I COULD do it! It would all depend on what sacrifices I was willing to make - to stay and put up with it, or go and start a new life; both would require sacrifices from me, and I just had to decide which ones I wanted to deal with. I was totally willing to tear my whole life apart and struggle with that, instead of struggle with the crap he was giving me....and he made it easy when he became drunk and violent (instead of just drunk and annoying) - NO more chances after that.
> And it was difficult, for sure, but I transferred the effort I used to put into my marriage and husband into working on solving the issues in my new life, and it was possible to survive and even thrive! I gave up A TON of "comforts" - we spent the whole first summer camping in a tent because I had no money - and there were other sacrifices too, but they were WAY better than the sacrifices I would have had to make if I stayed! I owned my choice to leave, and stubbornly plowed on, and I DO NOT regret it!!
> 
> I am NOT telling you to leave or anything, though - this addiction stuff is so hard to beat, and I'm sure your husband is ashamed and feels bad, even if he doesn't act like it outwardly. If you can help him stop this (IF he is willing), I think you guys could come out of this stronger and with more understanding of eachother, and more love! I wonder if you wrote him a letter about how you feel and either let him read it tonight or read it to him, if he could "hear" you better - I do that with my husband now, and it's been a very helpful way to communicate things that are scary/intimidating to TALK about, for both of us. I think you should definitely be in counseling, too, even if he changes his behavior without it -- maybe that's one of the reasons he got pulled back into it....this is a life-long struggle, it can get much easier to control, but it's always THERE. Also, if he's using it as a coping mechanism, he needs counseling to help him find other ways to deal with things. There are also some great books and websites dedicated to helping couples struggling with porn addiction and it's consequences.
> 
> These are only MY thoughts (just some of them!) -- I can't imagine having to face something like this, yet you seem so strong and brave, and I really admire you for that!! I will be thinking about you tonight, hoping that your husband will listen to you and CARE about how you feel, and that you guys can start moving towards real healing!!!



I am not sure if people still give those internet hugs but I gladly accept!

So we have ended up talking through text a little bit through out the day. Not what I wanted to do and we will still talk when he gets home but he started the conversation and I am guessing he feels more comfortable talking later with putting some sort of communication out there beforehand.

Once again its the same old except at least this time he did not deny it and lie for the first few conversations. Instead he has told me that it WAS a problem for him before but now it is not and he just doesn't do it as often. I told him if he really believes that he is lying to himself. If it is the truth then he lied to me before and it was never really a problem and way to get me off his case and feel sorry for him.

The HARDEST part about all of this is if you took this situation out of the equation we wouldn't have many issues at all. Despite the comments that he makes about being the breadwinner he only ever does this when we are fighting about something (typically this issue) and I know he does that because it is all he has or all he feels like he has to say back.

Other than this crap he's really good to me. I have asked him over and over again over the years a few questions when issues come up and one is always "is there something I am doing that bothers you and I should work on"? and the other is always "do you ever resent me for being a stay at home mom". As far as the first question he has come up with little things over the years that I have worked on and I believe improved on but the answer to the second question is always NO. He has always said it makes him happy that I am able to be home with the kids, engaged in their activities and all the stuff that goes along with being at home.


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## Mrs.K

I had also meant to add what you went through and came out of is amazing. I would like to think that I would be able to handle things in the same way if it ever does come to the point where I just can't put up with it anymore.

I have the advantage and disadvantage of my kids being a little bit older. Lets face it, I suppose there is no perfect age for kids to be when this stuff comes up.

My mood has sucked all week and my oldest is on to something and wants to know why everyone has been in a bad mood all week.


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## badsanta

Blondilocks said:


> OK, so far you have yet to offer the OP advice. All you've done is latch on to other's posts to make passive-aggressive snotty jabs which is why I suggested you try addressing the OP.
> 
> Try sitting closer to the front.
> 
> Mrs. K, you have my heartfelt sympathy in dealing with this. Good luck tonight.


Like I said, makes for good target practice! At least she has a working model of how he may respond emotionally. 

I stood back, did you hear the ricochet wiz by?


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## badsanta

Mrs.K said:


> So we have ended up talking through text a little bit through out the day. Not what I wanted to do and we will still talk when he gets home but he started the conversation and I am guessing he feels more comfortable talking later with putting some sort of communication out there beforehand.


Hopefully he will digest his emotions and have a worthwhile conversation with you on the topic. 

Do stand up for yourself as you deserve to be loved emotionally and physically and not ignored for months at a time. A spouse often has the power to drain the self confidence of a partner through passive aggressive behaviors and turning away when you try to initiate intimacy. If that makes you angry, that is the part of you inside that still loves yourself and will not tolerate being mistreated. Listen to that anger, but try to do so in a way that fuels your self confidence in a way that you know you deserve to be loved. 

Like you say, your husband has not taken care of his health but yet you still have it in you to love him. Love is not about how you look on the outside, it is about being a kind and decent person on the inside. If you have put up with your husband's behavior for this long, then you are indeed a kind and decent person that deserves to be loved. 

Do let yourself feel angry if you need to. Stand up for yourself. Don't accept anything that makes you feel unloved. Your husband should respond and respect you for this. At the end of the day we all want to make our loved ones happy, but we also have to stand up and care for ourselves BEFORE we can care for others. 

Be strong!


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## Openminded

I was married for decades to a cheater. His excuse, each time he was caught, was to blame his behavior on his family of origin issues. There were many broken promises. I think he wanted to change but he felt there was just too much to overcome. Your husband may want to change but he also may feel there is just too much to overcome. Not everyone can manage to be who they should be. If he can't overcome this -- even with his marriage on the line -- then obviously you have to decide to accept him as he is or get out because you can't make him change.


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## Mrs.K

Our talk went well-ish.. I say that because only time will tell if he meant it or was telling me what he thinks I might want to hear. 

When I told him that this issue seems to make us incompatible he got very upset and said that there was no way we were. So I explained that obviously porn is very important to him and my feelings have not changed toward the situation so clearly one of us is always going to be unhappy and it’s not fair to whichever one of us is “winning” at the time. He says he will stop again. I asked him how. He doesn’t have a solid plan. 

I can’t demand therapy for him right this minute, though I did let him know I was going to go on my own. The reason I can’t make it a condition of working things out is because he works almost 2 hours away.. has to be to work at 9:30am and leaves there at 6:30pm, he has weekends off but I don’t see us finding a therapist that works on the weekends. We could go to our pastor but that would be awkward since that is also my boss. So I’m not quite sure what he plan for success is or how to help him although all of you very wise people have reminded me it’s not my job.

He spent a lot of time thanking me for all the thankless jobs that I do, it seemed sincere but we shall see.

The last part was me asking him again if he was resentful of me staying home and if I should think about getting a full time job when the kids go back to school. He said again he likes me being at home and laid it on thick with how the place would crumble to the ground without me.. so I told him that I’m always wondering about working FT and that stuff since when we fight he always makes comments about him being the provider. He said it was the only thing that ever comes to his mind when he doesn’t have anything to say negatively towards me. 


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Mrs.K said:


> Our talk went well-ish.. I say that because only time will tell if he meant it or was telling me what he thinks I might want to hear.
> 
> When I told him that this issue seems to make us incompatible he got very upset and said that there was no way we were. So I explained that obviously porn is very important to him and my feelings have not changed toward the situation so clearly one of us is always going to be unhappy and it’s not fair to whichever one of us is “winning” at the time. He says he will stop again. I asked him how. He doesn’t have a solid plan.
> 
> I can’t demand therapy for him right this minute, though I did let him know I was going to go on my own. The reason I can’t make it a condition of working things out is because he works almost 2 hours away.. has to be to work at 9:30am and leaves there at 6:30pm, he has weekends off but I don’t see us finding a therapist that works on the weekends. We could go to our pastor but that would be awkward since that is also my boss. So I’m not quite sure what he plan for success is or how to help him although all of you very wise people have reminded me it’s not my job.
> 
> He spent a lot of time thanking me for all the thankless jobs that I do, it seemed sincere but we shall see.
> 
> The last part was me asking him again if he was resentful of me staying home and if I should think about getting a full time job when the kids go back to school. He said again he likes me being at home and laid it on thick with how the place would crumble to the ground without me.. so I told him that I’m always wondering about working FT and that stuff since when we fight he always makes comments about him being the provider. He said it was the only thing that ever comes to his mind when he doesn’t have anything to say negatively towards me.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just a thought here. Pastors are usually pretty well networked. If you were to tell your pastor you want some counseling, but not from him due to proximity, first, I'm sure he would understand and second, he probably knows another pastor he trusts that he could refer you to.


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## Mrs.K

Also he tried at first to say it was me as well that doesn’t initiate sex, I told him EXACTLY when I stopped and wondered how often he thought I should ask when there’s always an excuse?? I told him at this moment in time I’m not comfortable taking the lead on that. 

Like I said at this point I’m not sure if he’s telling me what I want to hear or not but his facial expressions seemed sincere when I used words like incompatible and uncomfortable. 

So it leaves me in a strange place. I am also going to need to put in some effort but it seems like everything coming from him will be like he’s filling an obligation. I’ll need to work on changing my mindset on that end. 


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## Mrs.K

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Just a thought here. Pastors are usually pretty well networked. If you were to tell your pastor you want some counseling, but not from him due to proximity, first, I'm sure he would understand and second, he probably knows another pastor he trusts that he could refer you to.



That is a really good idea, I could probably even request it is someone that he knows and trusts but we don't mingle with through events and conferences.


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## Casual Observer

Mrs.K said:


> Also he tried at first to say it was me as well that doesn’t initiate sex, I told him EXACTLY when I stopped and wondered how often he thought I should ask when there’s always an excuse?? I told him at this moment in time I’m not comfortable taking the lead on that.
> 
> Like I said at this point I’m not sure if he’s telling me what I want to hear or not but his facial expressions seemed sincere when I used words like incompatible and uncomfortable.
> 
> So it leaves me in a strange place. I am also going to need to put in some effort but it seems like everything coming from him will be like he’s filling an obligation. I’ll need to work on changing my mindset on that end.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A strange thought, and perhaps an experiment you're not comfortable engaging in, but is it possible that a steady & frequent, almost exhausting stream of sex might make porn seem irrelevant?


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## Blondilocks

He thinks you two are compatible because you tolerate him having a sex life and you not. He probably suspects that he would have a hard time finding another partner so accommodating and sacrificial.

Does he think it is fair that he has a sex life and you don't? Do you think it is fair? Is this loving and kind? 

Words are cheap.


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## Mrs.K

Casual Observer said:


> A strange thought, and perhaps an experiment you're not comfortable engaging in, but is it possible that a steady & frequent, almost exhausting stream of sex might make porn seem irrelevant?




In the past this is what I’ve done and it’s lead to rejection and disappointment. I do not think he would reject me at this point but I’m not sure I want to go there. 


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## Mrs.K

Blondilocks said:


> He thinks you two are compatible because you tolerate him having a sex life and you not. He probably suspects that he would have a hard time finding another partner so accommodating and sacrificial.
> 
> 
> 
> Does he think it is fair that he has a sex life and you don't? Do you think it is fair? Is this loving and kind?
> 
> 
> 
> Words are cheap.





I actually asked him that and he said he never really thought of it like that. 

I certainly don’t think it’s fair. I find it sad. 


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## LisaDiane

This all sounds really positive to me!!! I have alot of hope for him/you guys now!

It does sound like all this time he's been lying to himself about how his porn use is truly affecting you - I think he really does care about you and your feelings, he's just been pretending to himself that he's not hurting you....now you're right, time will tell HOW MUCH he cares, now that you've made it clear that you are unhappy, and he needs to respond to that. I think you handled yourself amazingly, from the way you described things - like I said, I really admire your bravery and directness (I struggle with that!) It's the best way to handle this kind of stuff, and the only way to really solve it. Definitely work on your mindset about him acting out of obligation -- that shouldn't be a dirty-word, we ALL do things for people we love out of obligation, and sometimes it's the only way to get motivated at first. Try to see it as a sign of how much he loves and cares for you!

I think the idea of a different pastor is a GREAT one - good luck with that! Also, really consider finding some books for couples with issues similar to yours, I have found a ton of help from books when I couldn't get to a counselor! And there are SO MANY online resources as well, it just takes a little digging.

Also, please feel free to PM me anytime if you want to vent!! <3 If not, just post here - there's SO MUCH support here!


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## farsidejunky

Mrs.K said:


> Also he tried at first to say it was me as well that doesn’t initiate sex, I told him EXACTLY when I stopped and wondered how often he thought I should ask when there’s always an excuse?? I told him at this moment in time I’m not comfortable taking the lead on that.
> 
> Like I said at this point I’m not sure if he’s telling me what I want to hear or not but his facial expressions seemed sincere when I used words like incompatible and uncomfortable.
> 
> So it leaves me in a strange place. I am also going to need to put in some effort but it seems like everything coming from him will be like he’s filling an obligation. I’ll need to work on changing my mindset on that end.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I very much like how you handled this. I especially like everything in this post...with the exception of the last paragraph.

That last paragraph is exactly where you need to address your side of the street. 

What you are effectively doing is assigning intentions to his actions, when frankly you have no idea what his intentions are. 

This is what I meant by forming your thoughts to shape and reinforce your narrative.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## LisaDiane

Mrs.K said:


> In the past this is what I’ve done and it’s lead to rejection and disappointment. I do not think he would reject me at this point but I’m not sure I want to go there.



Yikes - I wouldn't either....you are unhappy because you feel unloved and unwanted, the only way out of that is for him to prove to you that you ARE desired by him, by HIM pursuing YOU.


Did you ever answer your oldest about your bad mood...?


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## Mrs.K

LisaDiane said:


> Yikes - I wouldn't either....you are unhappy because you feel unloved and unwanted, the only way out of that is for him to prove to you that you ARE desired by him, by HIM pursuing YOU.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ever answer your oldest about your bad mood...?





I just told him last night that I haven’t felt well all week. This also made me realize we have a huge lack of boundaries in our home. 

I love that we all spend a lot of time together and no one is just stuffed up in their bedrooms, everyone is always in the main area. But last night trying to have a conversation was like pulling teeth. I sent my oldest and middle to the store for some things we needed and the youngest had to stay home cause she’s got stitches in her foot, otherwise I would have just sent them out for ice cream.

Anyway... it was clear that we were in conversation but it’s like none of them had sense to go away until I told them stuff like “why don’t you go get changed, and then finally he just told them can you guys just give us a few minutes”??

I know a HUGE issue I need to work on is making time for just him and I. He used to work second shift not all that long ago so I suppose things need to change just a little bit. Maybe an hour after he gets home in the evenings after the kids talk to him we might need 20 minutes of time to talk uninterrupted.

I can’t remember who but somewhere someone in this thread told me my kids need to help more, I didn’t touch that comment but I thought about it over and over again. First thinking nah they are only kids but then it hit me.. YES THEY DO!! I finally realized there are no trophies being handed out for the work I do around here, maybe, just maybe it doesn’t have to be perfect. It hit me like a ton of bricks yesterday when I was making my sons beds (16&11) while they sat in the same room and played video games


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## UpsideDownWorld11

Mrs.K said:


> I can’t remember who but somewhere someone in this thread told me my kids need to help more, I didn’t touch that comment but I thought about it over and over again. First thinking nah they are only kids but then it hit me.. YES THEY DO!! I finally realized there are no trophies being handed out for the work I do around here, maybe, just maybe it doesn’t have to be perfect. It hit me like a ton of bricks yesterday when I was making my sons beds (16&11) while they sat in the same room and played video games
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not only for you, but themselves and their future spouses. Your role is to prepare them for the future not make their lives easy. I'm a little OCD so I have to cringe a little when my kid does chores, but the prize at the end is bigger.

Looking back, I wish my parents had given me more responsibility and life skills that I had to learn along the way.


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## Openminded

Good for you for following through with the discussion on a very difficult subject. 

Maybe part of the reason he likes having you not work full-time is that you are financially dependent on him and therefore less likely to leave. In any event, he needs to quit bringing that subject up when you're having a disagreement. 

What you know is that he doesn't want a divorce and to have his life disrupted in all the ways that divorce generally brings. The question is whether he will be able to control his addiction so that divorce isn't a possibility. Talk is always the easiest part of the process.


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## Blondilocks

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Not only for you, but themselves and their future spouses. Your role is to prepare them for the future not make their lives easy. I'm a little OCD so I have to cringe a little when my kid does chores, but the prize at the end is bigger.
> 
> *Looking back, I wish my parents had given me more responsibility and life skills that I had to learn along the way.*


*
*

This is so important now that most women are in the work force. When I married in 1970, my 21 year old husband had never made his bed or learned any other basic skill necessary to taking care of himself. His mother justified her existence by doing everything for her husband and 4 sons. Let me tell you - it took a toll on all of the daughters-in-law who all (but one) worked full-time jobs.

My husband didn't want a chore list - he wanted to be asked to do something every time it needed to be done. Finally, I told him he was not a guest in our home and as an actual resident he had responsibilities.

So, yes, it is the parents' responsibility to send their children out into the world capable of taking care of not only themselves, but others as well. Because spouses get sick and need to be cared for, too.


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## WorkingWife

Mrs.K said:


> Our talk went well-ish..
> 
> The last part was me asking him again if he was resentful of me staying home and if I should think about getting a full time job when the kids go back to school. He said again he likes me being at home and laid it on thick with how the place would crumble to the ground without me.. so I told him that I’m always wondering about working FT and that stuff since when we fight he always makes comments about him being the provider. He said it was the only thing that ever comes to his mind when he doesn’t have anything to say negatively towards me.


I'm glad things went well-ish. About the part I underlined - is it possible he doesn't want you to work full time because he likes that you are dependent on him? If you need him you won't leave him, regardless of how he handles his porn issue?


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## ABHale

Mrs.K said:


> It has been an issue for our entire marriage, though he had me fooled that it was a non issue and completely normal. I have tried to accept it. I have tried to keep up but none of my efforts have been good enough. He lies about watching it, he lies about being done with it. He does tell other little white lies but I honestly just don't trust much of what he says. I am not naive here but on an actual affair my best guess would be no, he goes to and from work each day, he is always home on time/gets there on time. Doesn't go out with friends or anything (for no other reason than he does work very long hours and has a really bad commute so there is really no time)
> 
> My staying home has always been a joint decision, I had offered many times over the years to get a full time job or work alternating shifts from him but it was always said that I am needed more here than I am bringing home a paycheck. I have no idea what I would ever do for full time work. I am not a dumb person by any means but I have been home since I was around 21.
> 
> I do think we should do marriage counseling but every time I have brought it up in the past to get out of it he will improve certain behaviors until I let it go. I take care of everything to do with the kids, the house, the upkeep of the yard, cooking, cleaning etc.. and I have always done this so happily because I deeply appreciate my life and the ability to be at home. I feel like he has crossed too many lines this time, we don't have sex anymore but every few months, it isn't because of rejection either. He has gained a considerable amount of weight and that never even bothered me but what is too much for me is the porn that I most recently found on a kindle in the bathroom closet.. and what he seems to be doing. He is into bondage and seems to be doing this stuff on his own. I had tried in the past to give him what he wants as far as that stuff but it always left me feeling uncomfortable and my efforts were never enough anyway.


Schedule a counseling session then inform him about it. Find a good Christian counselor, someone not affiliated with your church. My wife and I did on issues we were having.

If he refuses still then I would suggest catching up on your education. Then find a full time job. Do this part on your own with no input from your husband. 

If he asks questions then let him know you have tried to talk with him for years and you are done talking.


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## 3Xnocharm

I am glad you were able to have what seems like a productive conversation.

I would suggest to you that you get a full time job now, regardless of what he is telling you. It not only gives you some security, but will likely give you a boost of self confidence, as well as make him take notice that you are not dependent upon him so he'd best straighten his crap out.


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## Casual Observer

Mrs.K said:


> ...
> I know a HUGE issue I need to work on is making time for just him and I. He used to work second shift not all that long ago so I suppose things need to change just a little bit. Maybe an hour after he gets home in the evenings after the kids talk to him we might need 20 minutes of time to talk uninterrupted.


Let's walk this one back a bit. Is there a correlation between his seeking pleasure through porn and odd work hours or simply less quality time spent together? I'm thinking it will be much easier to fix his porn issue if the quality time issue is either addressed simultaneously or even first. 

I understand that it could be really frustrating trying to spend more quality time with someone you don't want to spend time with (at the moment). But I think that's the first commitment the two of you have to make to each other, and do it. Otherwise, the porn issue might clear up temporarily, but it will keep coming back at you.


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## Mrs.K

WorkingWife said:


> I'm glad things went well-ish. About the part I underlined - is it possible he doesn't want you to work full time because he likes that you are dependent on him? If you need him you won't leave him, regardless of how he handles his porn issue?





That is possible but I think it has more to do with the fact that one of the kids would still need after school care if I was working full time but possibly after school care would actually be needed for 2 kids.. our middle son has lots of energy and really needs the supervision. School vacations and summer would also be an issue. Our oldest is capable of watching them but he just got a job and a car so he won’t be available much after school to help.

I also think my health concerns him, even when he is a complete jerk is always worried I over do it and also worries about long term possible side effects from medications I take. He spends a lot of time reading about it. Sometimes I have days/ weeks where I can do projects like paint every bedroom in the house and move furniture and then sometimes I need a nap after I go grocery shopping. 


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## Cynthia

Mrs.K said:


> Anyway... it was clear that we were in conversation but it’s like none of them had sense to go away until I told them stuff like “why don’t you go get changed, and then finally he just told them can you guys just give us a few minutes”??
> 
> I know a HUGE issue I need to work on is making time for just him and I. He used to work second shift not all that long ago so I suppose things need to change just a little bit. Maybe an hour after he gets home in the evenings after the kids talk to him we might need 20 minutes of time to talk uninterrupted.


My children are grown now, but our household has always been like this where we spend a lot of time together. My husband and I used to either go to the garage or the laundry room to talk. If one of the kids came in, we would tell them that we were having a private conversation, so leave us alone until we come out. Kids cannot read your mind. They learn boundaries by boundaries being taught and modeled. It's not rude to tell them to leave you alone for a bit.

My daughter has a three year old and she tells her that she needs to spend alone time in her room, so they can both have some alone time. My granddaughter now will tell her mother, "I need some alone time, Mom," and my daughter honors that. Most people need some alone time now and then.


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## Cynthia

I don't know what your husband does for a living, but if his commute makes it impossible for him to adequately deal with his addiction, something has to change in order for him to resolve this.

Have you considered going back to school to train for a career? This would be a good time for you to do that. It would put your husband on notice, plus it is good for both of you. If he actually repents, it will increase your family income when you start working in a higher wage career than you could have now. If he doesn't repent, his child support and alimony will be reduced. Either way, you will both have a higher standard of living if you have a career you enjoy that you can make a good income with.

I realize that it's hard to go back to school. I started back up in January of this year at age 54. It's been a struggle, but I'm doing well in school and will have a career that I love when I'm finished. I plan to be a professional freelance writer, so I can work from home as I am also the caregiver for my mother.


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## Mrs.K

I do have plans to go back to school. I would like to be a grief counselor. Which I will have to take all sorts of classes but grief is just what I would like to specialize in  

We lost our second born in 2006 and the best therapy for me has always been helping people in similar situations along the way. 




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## Cynthia

Mrs.K said:


> I do have plans to go back to school. I would like to be a grief counselor. Which I will have to take all sorts of classes but grief is just what I would like to specialize in
> 
> We lost our second born in 2006 and the best therapy for me has always been helping people in similar situations along the way.


The longer you wait, the harder it is and the less likely you will get to it. There are reasons that I am back in school that gave me a lot of motivation, but it is highly unusual for people to go back for a degree past the age of 35. If this is your dream, start living it now.


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## badsanta

Mrs.K said:


> *I know a HUGE issue I need to work on is making time for just him and I.* He used to work second shift not all that long ago so I suppose things need to change just a little bit. Maybe an hour after he gets home in the evenings after the kids talk to him we might need 20 minutes of time to talk uninterrupted.


THIS is also a HUGE challenge in my house. The day gets busy, we all spend time together as a family with the kids for dinner and perhaps a movie. The kids always snuggle with mom on the couch while watching the favorite family TV shows. Then it is time for bed and this is where I often feel as if I start playing the waiting game to have some alone time for just husband and wife. ...30 minutes go by brushing teeth, getting things ready for tomorrow, getting the cats and dogs settled for the night... ....45 more minutes go by because one of the kids was upset about something and needed to talk to mom about it.... ....20 minutes go by because someone was still too hungry to go to sleep and needed a snack.... ....30 more minutes go by because now my wife needed to tend to some important things in her email before going to bed... AND FINALLY my wife comes to bed and we get a moment just the two of us for the first time in the day. It is 11:45pm and we are both kinda too tired for anything intimate but we are being playful. THEN... one of the kids come running into the bedroom crying and needing to snuggle with mom.... and she encourages it and allows it!!!! I get ANGRY and then I am the grouchy one that no one likes and no one wants to spend time with.

The above has gone on for years and years. I have tried to be the one to put forth A LOT of effort into getting everyone ready for bed. My problem is that with teenage kids in the house, no matter what happens I always end up getting tired and falling asleep before them. At the end of the day it is if the kids go into high gear and become needy. Meanwhile in the morning when I am up at 6am and busy with work, they are sleeping until about 1 in the afternoon. So the mornings is about the only time my wife and I can find some alone time, but that is not easy when your boss is blowing up your phone with one emergency after the other and trying to deal with coworkers on the other side of the planet that only have a few hours to solve problems before their day is over. 

So I am the one with a very active libido and a high level of desire for my wife. At the end of the day once we do have time together and she might still be in the mood to be a little playful, but now it is just too late for me. I am tired. What little bit I might have left in me is now angry at everyone for not allowing me any alone time with my wife while I had the energy to enjoy it. Yes... I might just turn over and fall asleep.

So @Mrs.K do spend some time working on this type of problem if it is kind of similar for you and your husband. You also have to make a coordinated effort so that the kids learn to be respectful and one of you does not have to always play the bad guy and become the family grouch. Making the kids do chores is probably going to have to be a big part of that effort. 

In the meantime sending you wishes and hopes for you and your husband to find a way back to one another. Be strong and stand up for yourself!

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Blondilocks

@badsanta, your kids are teenagers. They are old enough to get their own snack, to get themselves ready for bed and to learn that lights out means lights out. They don't get to intrude on Mom & Dad time. Put your foot down. There's no point in getting angry when you're the one who won't enforce boundaries. Your wife has to let them grow up.


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## Mrs.K

badsanta said:


> THIS is also a HUGE challenge in my house. The day gets busy, we all spend time together as a family with the kids for dinner and perhaps a movie. The kids always snuggle with mom on the couch while watching the favorite family TV shows. Then it is time for bed and this is where I often feel as if I start playing the waiting game to have some alone time for just husband and wife. ...30 minutes go by brushing teeth, getting things ready for tomorrow, getting the cats and dogs settled for the night... ....45 more minutes go by because one of the kids was upset about something and needed to talk to mom about it.... ....20 minutes go by because someone was still too hungry to go to sleep and needed a snack.... ....30 more minutes go by because now my wife needed to tend to some important things in her email before going to bed... AND FINALLY my wife comes to bed and we get a moment just the two of us for the first time in the day. It is 11:45pm and we are both kinda too tired for anything intimate but we are being playful. THEN... one of the kids come running into the bedroom crying and needing to snuggle with mom.... and she encourages it and allows it!!!! I get ANGRY and then I am the grouchy one that no one likes and no one wants to spend time with.
> 
> 
> 
> The above has gone on for years and years. I have tried to be the one to put forth A LOT of effort into getting everyone ready for bed. My problem is that with teenage kids in the house, no matter what happens I always end up getting tired and falling asleep before them. At the end of the day it is if the kids go into high gear and become needy. Meanwhile in the morning when I am up at 6am and busy with work, they are sleeping until about 1 in the afternoon. So the mornings is about the only time my wife and I can find some alone time, but that is not easy when your boss is blowing up your phone with one emergency after the other and trying to deal with coworkers on the other side of the planet that only have a few hours to solve problems before their day is over.
> 
> 
> 
> So I am the one with a very active libido and a high level of desire for my wife. At the end of the day once we do have time together and she might still be in the mood to be a little playful, but now it is just too late for me. I am tired. What little bit I might have left in me is now angry at everyone for not allowing me any alone time with my wife while I had the energy to enjoy it. Yes... I might just turn over and fall asleep.
> 
> 
> 
> So @Mrs.K do spend some time working on this type of problem if it is kind of similar for you and your husband. You also have to make a coordinated effort so that the kids learn to be respectful and one of you does not have to always play the bad guy and become the family grouch. Making the kids do chores is probably going to have to be a big part of that effort.
> 
> 
> 
> In the meantime sending you wishes and hopes for you and your husband to find a way back to one another. Be strong and stand up for yourself!
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Badsanta





This is EXACTLY how much house runs and I’m sure you also notice it’s so much worse in the summer cause no one is tired from sports and school and other extra activities.

It’s like our kids don’t have any kind of common sense when it comes to the fact that mom and dad may have to talk. 

One thing I do know and I try so hard to work on this area is sometimes my husband feels like an outsider when he gets home. The past 3 months of work for him have been particularly brutal. Which I am not making an excuse for him but could be part of the explanation of our latest troubles. 

We bicker a lot over little things that he thinks the kids should do for themselves. When it comes down to it, it’s stuff that I enjoy doing for all of them but he is right. 

I told him last night that we should start going out once a month. We never go out alone. Our teenager is very responsible so child care isn’t an issue if we want to go for dinner. 

As it sounds like you and your wife both know the balancing act is such a struggle. I know some nights everything seems fine then bedtime comes and someone has a deep issue that they need to work through RIGHT NOW!! 

Thank you badsanta for all your wisdom! 


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## badsanta

Mrs.K said:


> As it sounds like you and your wife both know the balancing act is such a struggle. I know some nights everything seems fine then bedtime comes and someone has a deep issue that they need to work through RIGHT NOW!!
> 
> Thank you badsanta for all your wisdom!


I honestly don't feel like I have much wisdom other than life is messy and you just do the best you can. They ONLY thing that gives life any sense of balance is feeling like at least my spouse and I have found common ground and are on the same team when it comes to "trying" to solve what seems to be life's unrelenting and impossible messiness of trying to survive. 

When our marital problems were really bad it seemed as if:
*Me & My Problems* versus *Her & Her Problems*

Now that we are in a better place it feel more like:
*Me & Her* versus *Life is messy and always full of Problems*

...at the end of the day we are still dealing with all sorts of crap, but at least we are working together as a team. That is what makes the biggest difference to me and it helps always keep us close no matter how tough or challenging things get. 

Sincerely, 
Badsanta


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## Casual Observer

Mrs.K said:


> I would like to hear from some women who have left their husbands after spending just about their entire adult life as a housewife.
> 
> I have been a stay at home mom for SIXTEEN years. I work a part time job for our church which wouldn't pay for much at all.
> 
> Until very recently I have never seriously considered separation or divorce because I don't know how I would make it.. I still don't. Kids are 8,11 and 16 and have never known anything but having me at home, at every school and sporting event. They are my entire life and that change alone would about kill me.
> 
> BUT I am not happy in my marriage, I haven't been in a long time. My husband is addicted to porn and lying. I feel no attraction to him anymore because of these behaviors. I can't even stand to be in the same room with him anymore.
> 
> He has ZERO idea that I am feeling this way. I honestly don't even know how I would bring it up because he would think I was just kidding.. I think he feels a lot of power in the fact that I couldn't keep up with the house and all the bills without him.


Just a reminder of the opening post by Mrs. K. From there, I believe we've seen things evolve into a much more hopeful scenario. She knows what needs to be done and is implementing a plan. She found that "epiphany" moment for her husband when he finally recognized the unfairness that he had a sex life, and she didn't. I'm looking forward to things working out. I think it's great that TAM folk are making her aware of how to become self-sufficient if things don't work out, but I believe there's more "R" potential here than "D." 

Just sayin.


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## JL39775

Have you tried seducing him? Start with seductive text messages throughout the day. When he comes to bed, play with him until he can’t resist. If he’s active with porn, then I don’t see how he can’t get aroused by your persistent touch. I would have a hard time resisting even if I’m not in the mood. 

Seems like you love each other and his lack of attention is the main issue. Im under the impression that the porn is not a big deal if he give you attention. Take the initiative and rock his world.


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## Openminded

Blondilocks said:


> @badsanta, your kids are teenagers. They are old enough to get their own snack, to get themselves ready for bed and to learn that lights out means lights out. They don't get to intrude on Mom & Dad time. Put your foot down. There's no point in getting angry when you're the one who won't enforce boundaries. Your wife has to let them grow up.


I agree. Teenagers don't need coddling. There's a reason that happens.


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## aquarius1

badsanta said:


> THIS is also a HUGE challenge in my house. The day gets busy, we all spend time together as a family with the kids for dinner and perhaps a movie. The kids always snuggle with mom on the couch while watching the favorite family TV shows. Then it is time for bed and this is where I often feel as if I start playing the waiting game to have some alone time for just husband and wife. ...30 minutes go by brushing teeth, getting things ready for tomorrow, getting the cats and dogs settled for the night... ....45 more minutes go by because one of the kids was upset about something and needed to talk to mom about it.... ....20 minutes go by because someone was still too hungry to go to sleep and needed a snack.... ....30 more minutes go by because now my wife needed to tend to some important things in her email before going to bed... AND FINALLY my wife comes to bed and we get a moment just the two of us for the first time in the day. It is 11:45pm and we are both kinda too tired for anything intimate but we are being playful. THEN... one of the kids come running into the bedroom crying and needing to snuggle with mom.... and she encourages it and allows it!!!! I get ANGRY and then I am the grouchy one that no one likes and no one wants to spend time with.
> 
> The above has gone on for years and years. I have tried to be the one to put forth A LOT of effort into getting everyone ready for bed. My problem is that with teenage kids in the house, no matter what happens I always end up getting tired and falling asleep before them. At the end of the day it is if the kids go into high gear and become needy. Meanwhile in the morning when I am up at 6am and busy with work, they are sleeping until about 1 in the afternoon. So the mornings is about the only time my wife and I can find some alone time, but that is not easy when your boss is blowing up your phone with one emergency after the other and trying to deal with coworkers on the other side of the planet that only have a few hours to solve problems before their day is over.
> 
> So I am the one with a very active libido and a high level of desire for my wife. At the end of the day once we do have time together and she might still be in the mood to be a little playful, but now it is just too late for me. I am tired. What little bit I might have left in me is now angry at everyone for not allowing me any alone time with my wife while I had the energy to enjoy it. Yes... I might just turn over and fall asleep.
> 
> So @Mrs.K do spend some time working on this type of problem if it is kind of similar for you and your husband. You also have to make a coordinated effort so that the kids learn to be respectful and one of you does not have to always play the bad guy and become the family grouch. Making the kids do chores is probably going to have to be a big part of that effort.
> 
> In the meantime sending you wishes and hopes for you and your husband to find a way back to one another. Be strong and stand up for yourself!
> 
> Regards,
> Badsanta


I am really torn on how to advise on this one. I did the same thing. Put my kids first. There is never a time in their lives when they don't need you. But if I had to choose, I would say that its the TEENAGE years that are the most needy. The fact that they connect so well with the family is a blessing, and will stand you in good stead when they go through challenging times (and there will be challenging times, trust me) You want them to know that if they face a challenge, or need a shoulder that you are nearby.
Downside, partner goes by the wayside.
BUT, if I can suggest based on my own crappy decisions regarding this issue let me suggest this:
What time does your work day start officially? what about an early morning romp in bed
Do you get a lunch hour? How about a mid day "snack" before the kids get up
After dinner, somewhere between the 6-8 time, tell the kids. Dad and I want parent time. Enforce it. Take an hour. Even if its just to be together in each others arms. Be serious. Tell them the bedroom door will not be answered and neither will the texts. My motto now is "if nobody's bleeding and nothing's on fire...SOLVE IT YOURSELF"
Please don't make the mistake I made. Let the kids do some self care...ALONE (teeth etc) Teach them independence. You'll thank me later. I didn't and ended up with kids unable to cope. I had to wean them slowly. The eldest is just turning 21 and finally going to Uni.
You will never regret being present with your kids. But we mom's are used to a lifetime of wiping noses and bums, kissing scrapes away and taking charge of things like when people want to bathe the cat or eat marbles. We can't stop doing that all at once. It's been our life for at least 15 years. Both sides need to wean off slowly...BUT WEAN THEY MUST.


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## Cynthia

When the children are in charge of how things go down in the evening, that is a problem. 

I understand the dynamics, but it is important that the children are told outright that Dad and Mom need time alone and that they need to get any problems resolved before a certain time. At our house, it was 9:00 p.m. I also took time to check in on the kids during the day to find out how they were doing and if there was anything they wanted to discuss. They all knew that Mom and Dad time was non-negotiable unless it was an outright emergency.

I also had this rule for shower time. I told the kids that they were not to interrupt my shower time unless there was an actual emergency. One time I was showering and heard a loud bang. I finished my shower and turn off the water. At that exact moment, my daughter told me that her brother was injured. He has fallen and cut his back open. She took a washcloth and applied pressure. She calmed him down and had him lay on his stomach on the couch until I was done. Good thing for first aid training. She was 10 years old at the time.

Kids need to be taught these things. Kids are not going to figure it out on their own. It is the job of parents to teach them. People are not born with this information. It is also your job to manage the family schedule so everyone is getting their needs met, including Mom and Dad. 

This is the responsibility of both husband and wife. We didn't always get it right, but we did try and we instilled into our children that Mom and Dad need their time alone. This didn't create problems for the kids. It gave them a sense of stability.


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## Mrs.K

aquarius1 said:


> I am really torn on how to advise on this one. I did the same thing. Put my kids first. There is never a time in their lives when they don't need you. But if I had to choose, I would say that its the TEENAGE years that are the most needy. The fact that they connect so well with the family is a blessing, and will stand you in good stead when they go through challenging times (and there will be challenging times, trust me) You want them to know that if they face a challenge, or need a shoulder that you are nearby.
> 
> Downside, partner goes by the wayside.
> 
> BUT, if I can suggest based on my own crappy decisions regarding this issue let me suggest this:
> 
> What time does your work day start officially? what about an early morning romp in bed
> 
> Do you get a lunch hour? How about a mid day "snack" before the kids get up
> 
> After dinner, somewhere between the 6-8 time, tell the kids. Dad and I want parent time. Enforce it. Take an hour. Even if its just to be together in each others arms. Be serious. Tell them the bedroom door will not be answered and neither will the texts. My motto now is "if nobody's bleeding and nothing's on fire...SOLVE IT YOURSELF"
> 
> Please don't make the mistake I made. Let the kids do some self care...ALONE (teeth etc) Teach them independence. You'll thank me later. I didn't and ended up with kids unable to cope. I had to wean them slowly. The eldest is just turning 21 and finally going to Uni.
> 
> You will never regret being present with your kids. But we mom's are used to a lifetime of wiping noses and bums, kissing scrapes away and taking charge of things like when people want to bathe the cat or eat marbles. We can't stop doing that all at once. It's been our life for at least 15 years. Both sides need to wean off slowly...BUT WEAN THEY MUST.




Thank you for this. This is the exact balance we also need to find. I feel so grateful our oldest even with a little new found freedom of driving wants to still spend the majority of time at home with us. 

It is something we are proud of.. giving the environment to WANT to be in but I’m realizing that we need to do the same for ourselves as well. My husband said tonight he’s sending the kids up early and that he was stopping for snacks that we usually don’t allow them to have and renting movies. The biggest part of it that I liked was that he didn’t talk it to death. He had a good idea and simply acted on it. 


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Mrs.K said:


> Thank you for this. This is the exact balance we also need to find. I feel so grateful our oldest even with a little new found freedom of driving wants to still spend the majority of time at home with us.
> 
> It is something we are proud of.. giving the environment to WANT to be in but I’m realizing that we need to do the same for ourselves as well. My husband said tonight he’s sending the kids up early and that he was stopping for snacks that we usually don’t allow them to have and renting movies. The biggest part of it that I liked was that he didn’t talk it to death. He had a good idea and simply acted on it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, you need to create the environment the two of you want to be in... very good observation. 

To add emphasis, I would ask you to consider that if the relationship between you and your husband gets more strained, that will show up no matter how good you think the two of you can hide it, so the environment will become less pleasant for your kids as well. So your efforts for you and your husband to reconnect, while they might mean a little less time for the kids, ironically will only enhance your kids' comfort and desire to spend time in the family home. 

Best wishes to all.
-Yeti


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## Blondilocks

badsanta has this covered. Good luck to you.


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## Wazza

Just read the entire thread at once. 

You have a right to what you want, and so does your husband. The tricky part is to find common ground. 

The first thing I would say is to stop messing around and change your work circumstances, starting today. Firstly, you need to so that you are free to make your choices. But secondly, I think that will probably change how you see the world, and certainly will force a change in the dynamic of your marriage.

Beyond that, I admit to being surprised that you would say your husband had no idea how you feel, but that you had communicated effectively. I know it’s already been dealt with in the thread, but you need to think about how those statements can both be true. My experience is that, when my marriage is going through rocky patches and I can see all the things my wife is doing wrong, I’m not really getting her perspective. Afterwards, I can usually see that I wasn’t listening well enough - usually because I am upset and not objective - and I am not expressing myself in a way the partner can understand.

Finally, on porn and masturbation, I think you need to set realistic expectations. Is what you are demanding of him reasonable?


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## badsanta

Blondilocks said:


> badsanta has this covered. Good luck to you.


Well it is almost midnight in my house and the wife is upstairs with the kids and I am downstairs reading the news and updates to threads here waiting for her to come to bed... 

So @Mrs.K is already doing better than me on this evening! At least that gives me a smile to think about something positive in the world as opposed to all the nonsense in the news.

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Mrs.K

Wazza said:


> Just read the entire thread at once.
> 
> 
> 
> You have a right to what you want, and so does your husband. The tricky part is to find common ground.
> 
> 
> 
> The first thing I would say is to stop messing around and change your work circumstances, starting today. Firstly, you need to so that you are free to make your choices. But secondly, I think that will probably change how you see the world, and certainly will force a change in the dynamic of your marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> Beyond that, I admit to being surprised that you would say your husband had no idea how you feel, but that you had communicated effectively. I know it’s already been dealt with in the thread, but you need to think about how those statements can both be true. My experience is that, when my marriage is going through rocky patches and I can see all the things my wife is doing wrong, I’m not really getting her perspective. Afterwards, I can usually see that I wasn’t listening well enough - usually because I am upset and not objective - and I am not expressing myself in a way the partner can understand.
> 
> 
> 
> Finally, on porn and masturbation, I think you need to set realistic expectations. Is what you are demanding of him reasonable?





He had no idea how I felt not because of lack of communication but because I made the choice to not act out in anger, seek advise and communicate properly when the time was right. See in the past as soon as I saw what was happening yet again I would have blown up on the spot. Me angry, him defensive- it’s never worked in the past. 

I believe my expectations are realistic, I wouldn’t go poking or have an opinion of what he does in that area if it didn’t take over our sex life when he gets deep into it. 

I do appreciate and understand the advice I have been given as far as being self sufficient with a full time job but I would hardly consider what I do in my life to be “messing around”. I am confident enough to say that my role in the home is important. My part time job is important. My involvement in my community is also important. I have saved us thousands and thousands of dollars over the years cause I’m not sitting home watching tv. I am doing projects that my husband doesn’t have time for so we don’t have to hire anyone. Perhaps I’ve given the wrong impression or people tend to think of stay at home moms as people with no skills who live in little boxes that don’t think for themselves and are in the dark on their financial situations.. that is not me. I handle it all. I don’t think a full time job would change the way I see the world. I am not one to harp on the fact that I have a chronic illness but I have 3, a full time job would make life for not only me difficult but for my husband as well. He would have to pick up a lot of slack that he doesn’t have time for and a considerable chunk of what I make would go to child care.

If things started to go in a direction where I knew that we couldn’t stay together or I was done trying (which last week I honestly felt like I didn’t have another round in me when I posted this but after talking it out with so many people here I realized I did and I am so grateful for that) would I have to work full time? Sure would, and that’s exactly what I would do, it would be hard but I’d figure it out. 

I realize I now sound defensive but that is only because it is coming across that I have some sort of unfulfilled life because I have a PT job instead of FT. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Wazza

Mrs.K said:


> I do appreciate and understand the advice I have been given as far as being self sufficient with a full time job but I would hardly consider what I do in my life to be “messing around”. I am confident enough to say that my role in the home is important. My part time job is important. My involvement in my community is also important. I have saved us thousands and thousands of dollars over the years cause I’m not sitting home watching tv. I am doing projects that my husband doesn’t have time for so we don’t have to hire anyone. Perhaps I’ve given the wrong impression or people tend to think of stay at home moms as people with no skills who live in little boxes that don’t think for themselves and are in the dark on their financial situations.. that is not me. I handle it all. I don’t think a full time job would change the way I see the world. I am not one to harp on the fact that I have a chronic illness but I have 3, a full time job would make life for not only me difficult but for my husband as well. He would have to pick up a lot of slack that he doesn’t have time for and a considerable chunk of what I make would go to child care.


I wasn’t questioning the value of being a stay at home mum. I agree it’s important and worthwhile. Where I thought you were messing around was by possibly being indecisive about it. You talked about things you would do as full time, for example grief counsellor, in a context where you also talked about divorce. 

If you are just blowing off steam here that is fine, but if you are making serious plans, either make the decision to get a full time career or don’t. Deciding to do it when you have time to prepare gives you time to develop skills and improve your job prospects. Taking the best thing you can get right now because you are leaving and have to pay the rent is a recipe for less options, which will probably translate into some combination of less money, less ability to structure things and balance career and family, and less career enjoyment.

I don’t see why your husband’s porn use is likely to change just because you demand it. Sexuality is a deep part of us, and the most any of us can do is hide it. Are you ok with the status quo if his porn use continues? If not, what direction do you want to go in?

Does that make sense?


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## Wazza

Mrs.K said:


> I realize I now sound defensive but that is only because it is coming across that I have some sort of unfulfilled life because I have a PT job instead of FT.


To be sure I have been clear, I didn’t get that in the slightest. I have worked part time at different points to allow for childraising and other priorities, and it makes perfect sense. The underpinning of my advice was basically economic.


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## Mrs.K

Wazza said:


> I wasn’t questioning the value of being a stay at home mum. I agree it’s important and worthwhile. Where I thought you were messing around was by possibly being indecisive about it. You talked about things you would do as full time, for example grief counsellor, in a context where you also talked about divorce.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are just blowing off steam here that is fine, but if you are making serious plans, either make the decision to get a full time career or don’t. Deciding to do it when you have time to prepare gives you time to develop skills and improve your job prospects. Taking the best thing you can get right now because you are leaving and have to pay the rent is a recipe for less options, which will probably translate into some combination of less money, less ability to structure things and balance career and family, and less career enjoyment.
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t see why your husband’s porn use is likely to change just because you demand it. Sexuality is a deep part of us, and the most any of us can do is hide it. Are you ok with the status quo if his porn use continues? If not, what direction do you want to go in?
> 
> 
> 
> Does that make sense?




I for sure have plans to go to school. I’ve wanted to be one for years but it’s really just in the last few months I had decided that I would actually do it. Working through my own grief after losing my own child has been a must making sure I am in a good place with my own feelings before I train to help people professionally. 

Maybe his porn use won’t change because I’ve demanded it. However, I am only aware of what he tells me and he’s told me it’s an addiction and that he knows it’s not good for him and especially me or our relationship. If it were to continue and it also continued to replace our sex life then yeah, things would need to change. If it doesn’t interfere with our sex life there wouldn’t be an issue and I would probably never even know about it so I guess that would be a non issue. None of this would have ever been an issue if we had a healthy sex life. 


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## badsanta

Mrs.K said:


> I for sure have plans to go to school. I’ve wanted to be one for years but it’s really just in the last few months I had decided that I would actually do it. Working through my own grief after losing my own child has been a must making sure I am in a good place with my own feelings before I train to help people professionally.


Even if you do not pursue a full time opportunity as a grief counselor, I think going back to school would be a very positive thing. In the meantime you may find it helpful to try and help others (like here on this forum). While most advice often gets criticized by those hurting from their own problems, it serve as a great place to hear yourself think. Problem solving for others will also help you better understand your own weaknesses and continue to develop different ideas and ways to look at things. 

Sincerely, 
Badsanta


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## Hopeful Cynic

Mrs.K said:


> I for sure have plans to go to school. I’ve wanted to be one for years but it’s really just in the last few months I had decided that I would actually do it. Working through my own grief after losing my own child has been a must making sure I am in a good place with my own feelings before I train to help people professionally.


Look into schools that have the program you want. See if you can get in part-time, so your classes are not overwhelming to your family, and you are only gone a little bit of the time.

Your children are old enough to pick up the slack. "Mom has class today, so YOU need to get supper ready tonight." "Mom has to study tonight, so YOU need to do your own laundry."

It would be a great way to tackle both issues; weaning your children off having their mom do everything, AND building your education in preparation for your new career.



Mrs.K said:


> Maybe his porn use won’t change because I’ve demanded it. However, I am only aware of what he tells me and he’s told me it’s an addiction and that he knows it’s not good for him and especially me or our relationship. If it were to continue and it also continued to replace our sex life then yeah, things would need to change. If it doesn’t interfere with our sex life there wouldn’t be an issue and I would probably never even know about it so I guess that would be a non issue. None of this would have ever been an issue if we had a healthy sex life.


I don't have as much to suggest for this last dilemma. Starting your education and boosting the children's independence are good on their own, but they are also a step towards putting you in a better place if you and your husband do separate.

I'd be just looking at him sadly next time you know he's gone back to porn, and saying something like "so you've decided we should separate then?" Calmly. Like it's his choice, not yours, and you are simply resigned to it.

Not sure if it got mentioned yet, but why on Earth does he have such a crazy long commute? If you never see each other, you can't stay well-bonded. Can he not get a more local job? Or can you relocate closer to his workplace? I know you'll say it's not fair to uproot the kids, but is having their parents' marriage fall apart better?


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## Mrs.K

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Look into schools that have the program you want. See if you can get in part-time, so your classes are not overwhelming to your family, and you are only gone a little bit of the time.
> 
> Your children are old enough to pick up the slack. "Mom has class today, so YOU need to get supper ready tonight." "Mom has to study tonight, so YOU need to do your own laundry."
> 
> It would be a great way to tackle both issues; weaning your children off having their mom do everything, AND building your education in preparation for your new career.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have as much to suggest for this last dilemma. Starting your education and boosting the children's independence are good on their own, but they are also a step towards putting you in a better place if you and your husband do separate.
> 
> I'd be just looking at him sadly next time you know he's gone back to porn, and saying something like "so you've decided we should separate then?" Calmly. Like it's his choice, not yours, and you are simply resigned to it.
> 
> Not sure if it got mentioned yet, but why on Earth does he have such a crazy long commute? If you never see each other, you can't stay well-bonded. Can he not get a more local job? Or can you relocate closer to his workplace? I know you'll say it's not fair to uproot the kids, but is having their parents' marriage fall apart better?



You are 100% correct- my kids need to do more on their own and I am working on implementing that now, especially where we have another month of summer. During the school year I spend 2 hours on house work when they leave for school and that usually keeps everything running smoothly. But I have decided I will stop putting away their laundry, making their beds and a few other things they should really be doing on their own. To be honest, this is my issue, they aren't really lazy kids but if they don't do something the way I would do it I get annoyed, but I am realizing it doesn't have to be the same as I would do it!! It isn't my room or my bed.

His commute is just due to where we live, and that is opposite of where the money is, he has to travel to the next state over, sadly in a really busy area. However.. in a few months his shift will be changing to start much earlier in the morning and he will get out at 3:30 so he will be home earlier, which doesn't really make much of a difference because from 4-7 each day here is just about a nightmare, running the kids to sports, dance etc, home work, dinner.. I always tell him he is lucky because he strolls in when the marathon is over:grin2: Moving wouldn't be a good choice cause at any time he could be transferred. And yes, it does have to do with uprooting the kids as well, my son will be a junior and we have lived in the same place since he was born. I would feel cruel taking him away from that. Our issue is more so no time alone rather than no time at all. We are working on that too though.


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## badsanta

Mrs.K said:


> ...We are working on that...


 @Mrs.K any updates you are willing to share? Hope all is going well. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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