# Statistically low odds



## Lila

In order to avoid a threadjack, I have started a new thread using @Casual Observer's comment/questions 



> Is that really true, that statistically your odds are low of finding happiness again (assuming you had it before) in another long term relationship? That sounds so cold and harsh. And people aren't just statistics anyway.
> 
> Reading your own posts & story I have to believe you're (speaking of @Lila here) going to find someone who has great appreciation and respect for what you have to offer in a relationship. I do understand the concept of keeping low expectations to avoid disappointment, and further that jumping back into the game too quickly likely isn't a good idea because you might be vulnerable. Not enough self-respect maybe?
> 
> But I want to believe there's hope for those who feel like they've left their best years on the table and are thinking of facing the future on their own. I want to believe that there are a lot of real catches out there, good people, very good people, who were left behind by someone not so good. If you know what I mean.
> 
> But I've not been there. I don't know what it's like. I'm just hopeful that it's not quite as described. My heart really goes out to @Claire214 and @Lila.


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## Tilted 1

I don't think it's true either, l believe one can find peace, love, and commitment, with someone new. Because if one lives in the moment instead of the past can truly believe where they are currently at is better than where they came from.


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## Lila

Casual Observer said:


> Is that really true, that statistically your odds are low of finding happiness again (assuming you had it before) in another long term relationship? That sounds so cold and harsh. And people aren't just statistics anyway.


Sadly, the stats are rather dismal for people looking to find their next "happily ever after". Divorce rates are about 66% for 2nd marriages and almost 75% for third. The number of people getting "grey divorces" (over 55 years of age) is sharply increasing where younger people are declining. The number of people getting married is on the decline across the board with the sharpest decline being those over 50. This is also the group with the sharpest rise in cohabitation in the last decade. 

All of this to say that people may not be finding their "happily ever after" but some are finding several "happys for now". 



> Reading your own posts & story I have to believe you're (speaking of @Lila here) going to find someone who has great appreciation and respect for what you have to offer in a relationship. I do understand the concept of keeping low expectations to avoid disappointment, and further that jumping back into the game too quickly likely isn't a good idea because you might be vulnerable. Not enough self-respect maybe?


I think most people who enter into the singles scene after a long relationship learn quickly that it's best to accept reality. It takes an unshakeable optimist to hold out hope. 

I'd rather not get my hopes up and if someone great finds me, then awesome. Otherwise I'm doing the things I can control. 



> But I want to believe there's hope for those who feel like they've left their best years on the table and are thinking of facing the future on their own. I want to believe that there are a lot of real catches out there, good people, very good people, who were left behind by someone not so good. If you know what I mean.
> 
> But I've not been there. I don't know what it's like. I'm just hopeful that it's not quite as described. My heart really goes out to @Claire214 and @Lila.


I do believe there are plenty of "good catches" out there but the problem is finding good catches who are also compatible and that's the hard part. It's no longer boy meets girl, girl falls in love with boy, boy and girl live happily ever after. It's boy with emotional baggage and tons of responsibilities meets girl carrying emotional baggage and lots of responsibilities. Do they want to put in the effort to make it work? A lot of people will tell you it's easier to be single and just casually date for fun.


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## Livvie

Well, I have a thought.

Maybe it's just plain hard to find a wonderful partner, whether it's your first marriage or subsequent marriage. 

Maybe it's not true that second partners aren't as satisfying. Maybe! many people just stay in first marriages because they are *afraid* to divorce/don't want to lose their lifestyle. Just because someone stays in a multi decades long relationship doesn't mean they are HAPPY with their partner, or even a good match.

Maybe the rate of unhappiness is the same, and the difference is that some people refuse to remain unhappy, and stay in an unhappy pairing, and will divorce a spouse that are not happy with.


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## Lila

Tilted 1 said:


> I don't think it's true either, l believe one can find peace, love, and commitment, with someone new. Because if one lives in the moment instead of the past can truly believe where they are currently at is better than where they came from.


What makes you believe this? Have you experienced it yourself? Do you know people who have experienced this?


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## Livvie

I do!

I know many couples in their second marriages who are MUCH happier than in their first marriages.

Hold on I'm counting...

3 from my previous employment, including my 62 year old previous boss.

And, my current supervisor, my best friend, and 3 friends and two long time family friends.

Many people marry in their early to mid twenties and don't make a great/compatible choice. 

Older, post first marriage partnership can often lead to waaaay better choice of partner for yourself.





Lila said:


> Tilted 1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think it's true either, l believe one can find peace, love, and commitment, with someone new. Because if one lives in the moment instead of the past can truly believe where they are currently at is better than where they came from.
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you believe this? Have you experienced it yourself? Do you know people who have experienced this?
Click to expand...


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## Lila

Livvie said:


> I do!
> 
> I know many couples in their second marriages who are MUCH happier than in their first marriages.
> 
> Hold on I'm counting...
> 
> 3 from my previous employment, including my 62 year old previous boss.
> 
> And, my current supervisor, my best friend, and 3 friends and two long time family friends.
> 
> Many people marry in their early to mid twenties and don't make a great/compatible choice.
> 
> Older, post first marriage partnership can often lead to waaaay better choice of partner for yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tilted 1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think it's true either, l believe one can find peace, love, and commitment, with someone new. Because if one lives in the moment instead of the past can truly believe where they are currently at is better than where they came from.
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you believe this? Have you experienced it yourself? Do you know people who have experienced this?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

That's fantastic! Would you say they were both looking when they found each other or were they lucky?

I don't have any friends that have found someone to partner up with again long term. All have dated lots but only a handful have found short term relationships. Most have given up and now just date when they feel like company but are happy to be single.


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## Casual Observer

Lila said:


> I do believe there are plenty of "good catches" out there but the problem is finding good catches who are also compatible and that's the hard part. It's no longer boy meets girl, girl falls in love with boy, boy and girl live happily ever after. It's boy with emotional baggage and tons of responsibilities meets girl carrying emotional baggage and lots of responsibilities. Do they want to put in the effort to make it work? A lot of people will tell you it's easier to be single and just casually date for fun.


You see the baggage as a bad thing; I'm not so sure it has to work out that way. I think some of us have trouble in our marriages because the "baggage" is too near to us. The two of us had a part in creating it, or exacerbating it over the years. I think it possible that more baggage is better than less baggage because, at a certain point, individual things become much less relevant than the big picture. That you can get along and love that person, rather than feel some sort of odd retroactive jealousy. If the two have enough baggage you can just imagine putting into a blender and what comes out has no identifiable source anymore. 

I'm not having fun with this, not at all. I think I brought too little baggage into my marriage because I'd really one had one GF prior to my wife. I don't even have to qualify that. It was just one. She, on the other hand, had no shortage of guys knocking at her door. If I were to enter into another relationship if something were to happen to my wife, I think I would feel very differently about baggage than I have up to now. Baggage might actually be fun to unpack, if you can become detached enough to individual things.

All I can offer is an apparently-odd outside perspective. I have no personal experience with this, and I hope not to attain it. 

Also, I'm not so sure that the higher divorce statistics for 2nd or 3rd marriages are an indication of unhappiness. The fact that so many are willing to end a 2nd or 3rd marriage might simply mean they've become smarter at identifying things that aren't going to work out. The lower initial divorce rate (for 1st marriages) might reflect the exact same percentage of "happy" people (whatever that means), but of the unhappy people, they stick with it because divorce frightens them. Once they've been through a divorce, it might lose some of its sting.


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## Faithful Wife

Lila said:


> Sadly, the stats are rather dismal for people looking to find their next "happily ever after". *Divorce rates are about 66% for 2nd marriages and almost 75% for third*. The number of people getting "grey divorces" (over 55 years of age) is sharply increasing where younger people are declining. The number of people getting married is on the decline across the board with the sharpest decline being those over 50. This is also the group with the sharpest rise in cohabitation in the last decade.
> 
> All of this to say that people may not be finding their "happily ever after" but some are finding several "happys for now".
> 
> 
> 
> I think most people who enter into the singles scene after a long relationship learn quickly that it's best to accept reality. It takes an unshakeable optimist to hold out hope.
> 
> I'd rather not get my hopes up and if someone great finds me, then awesome. Otherwise I'm doing the things I can control.
> 
> 
> 
> I do believe there are plenty of "good catches" out there but the problem is finding good catches who are also compatible and that's the hard part. It's no longer boy meets girl, girl falls in love with boy, boy and girl live happily ever after. It's boy with emotional baggage and tons of responsibilities meets girl carrying emotional baggage and lots of responsibilities. Do they want to put in the effort to make it work? A lot of people will tell you it's easier to be single and just casually date for fun.


Perhaps this is more about the institution of marriage than it is about finding a new compatible partner and being happy with them? I'm not of the mind that marriage itself is "helpful" to relationships. I'm not knocking it for the people it has worked well for....but I just think that our ideas surrounding marriage are a bit messed up. As in, getting married will somehow insulate a couple against breaking up. Yet we know by the stats that this isn't so, not even for first time marriages. All that really happens is that it makes it legally a nightmare to break up, but people do break up and go through the nightmare.

And I may be an eternal optimist, and maybe that's my problem. But I logic it out like this: Since I exist, it is very likely that many matches for me exist. I'm not unusual in any way that it should be unlikely that there are matches for me.

To me the issue is in where to find that match, moreso than the fact that the matches exist. 

I wish there was some kind of old fashioned singles meet ups, where people actually showed up! It seems that doesn't happen much or at least around here. Another thing I wish is that people would always keep their single friends in mind and introduce them to each other if they think there might be some common interest. Although it didn't last long, the Silver Fox I was dating recently being set up by a mutual friend was one of the best matches I've had in a long time.

But regardless of how I meet him, I do know there is a match out there for me and that I will meet him. For now I'm fine with "happy for now's", but eventually I will want a "happy ever after" and I know that match will turn up somehow. I know he is also looking for me, and that due to our mutual desire to meet, our paths will cross.


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## ConanHub

I really don't know if I would be interested in another relationship if something ever happened to Mrs Conan.

I do know that I'm not worried about statistics or odds.

Statistics and odds do not tell the whole story. they only reflect different decisions motivations and actions of different individuals.

Each individual can choose to determine much of their reality.

That isn't hope speaking That's perseverance.


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## 3Xnocharm

Livvie said:


> Well, I have a thought.
> 
> *Maybe it's just plain hard to find a wonderful partner*, whether it's your first marriage or subsequent marriage.
> 
> Maybe it's not true that second partners aren't as satisfying. Maybe! many people just stay in first marriages because they are *afraid* to divorce/don't want to lose their lifestyle. * Just because someone stays in a multi decades long relationship doesn't mean they are HAPPY with their partner, or even a good match.*
> 
> Maybe the rate of unhappiness is the same, and the difference is that s*ome people refuse to remain unhappy, and stay in an unhappy pairing, and will divorce a spouse that are not happy with*.


I agree with @Livvie! 

And my mom and stepdad are a perfect example of two people finding their match and true happiness with each other in a second marriage. They were married 30 years before they both passed and were extremely attached and dedicated to each other. So it DOES happen and CAN happen to anyone. I dont think finding your ideal match should be the focus of your life though, mostly because it seems to happen when you are happy with yourself and your life and are not actively seeking out contentment in another person.


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## Mr. Nail

Oh, that statistic.
66% is so much bigger than 50%. Not that I'm throwing myself on the market. But not for that reason. There are a lot of factors behind that statistic. There are attitude corrections that can nullify some of them. the 2 most important things in order are
1. Be the right person (this is my problem)
2. Find the right person. (I'm worried that Lila thinks this is the only factor)

After those there are some significant pot holes to dodge, mostly summed up by saying "don't make the same mistakes again" 

In the end the average length of a marriage in the US is 8 years. there are many ways to look at that statistic. A lot of people in my age bracket are thinking, it isn't worth doing the paperwork for only 8 years. Me, I'm thinking I'm at 400%. best to quit while I'm ahead.


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## Lila

Mr. Nail said:


> . the 2 most important things in order are
> 1. Be the right person (this is my problem)
> 2. *Find the right person. (I'm worried that Lila thinks this is the only factor)*


What would give you the impression that finding the right person is the only factor? I did say there are many "great catches" but sometimes outside forces (kids, aging parents, jobs, ex partners, etc) make it impossible to carry on a relationship. Tack on compatibility and an ability to compromise, you have some serious hurdles to jump to find "the next one".


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## Mr. Nail

lazy reading on my part I guess


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## Laurentium

Lila said:


> Tack on compatibility ...


I'm never sure what "compatibility" even means. I guess I am looking for someone physically and mentally healthy, but surely that's what everyone wants? I don't feel I have any requirements that are special to me.


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## Lila

Laurentium said:


> I'm never sure what "compatibility" even means. I guess I am looking for someone physically and mentally healthy, but surely that's what everyone wants? I don't feel I have any requirements that are special to me.


For me compatibility is sharing similar core values, lifestyles (religion, interests), intelligence, sexual views, and general life goals. 

You don't have any requirements relating to the above categories?


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## Faithful Wife

Laurentium said:


> I'm never sure what "compatibility" even means. I guess I am looking for someone physically and mentally healthy, but surely that's what everyone wants? I don't feel I have any requirements that are special to me.


Here are some examples of IN-compatibility in case this helps....


He is a vegan and it is very important to him - she eats meat and has it 3 meals per day, prepares it in such a way that dishes and pans cannot be segregated for the vegan foods, etc.

She is a smoker - he is a non smoker (could apply to weed or cigarettes)

He likes to drink to the point of a buzz or drunk at least once a week - she is sober and does not like being around drunk people

She is introverted - he is extroverted 

He likes to camp in tents, hike difficult terrain on mountains, fish in lakes - she likes none of these things and prefers staying at home or staying in hotels, swimming in pools, and running on paved roads

She wants to talk about politics a lot - he never does

He wants to spend money on a fast car - she feels expensive cars are a waste of money that should go into her 401K

And the most obvious one - -

He or she is highly sexual - the other one isn't


The above is just an example and does not mean that people cannot work out any of the issues in my examples. I'm just pointing out that basic compatibility may come due to lack of IN-compatibilities sometimes.


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## Laurentium

Lila said:


> For me compatibility is sharing similar core values, lifestyles (religion, interests), intelligence, sexual views, and general life goals.
> 
> You don't have any requirements relating to the above categories?


Well, intelligence I guess, yes, but I'd say that's not special to me, it's another one that everybody would want. 

The others no, I don't really think I'm bothered what someone's religion is or their life goals. Or politics. I don't mind if someone's opinion is different from mine. I'm just thinking out loud here. I'm obviously past the stage where the wanting children versus not wanting children issue arises. Actually for me it might come down to tiny things, like if they chewed their food with their mouth open. So maybe yes, there's that.


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## Laurentium

Faithful Wife said:


> Here are some examples of IN-compatibility in case this helps....


Thanks! I see what you are saying. 

I don't have a lot of those kinds of requirements of a partner, myself. I don't mind if they eat meat or are a vegan, smoke or don't, drink or don't, want to spend their money on a car or don't, etc etc. A preoccupation with sameness seems slightly odd to me. Obviously I don't want an alcoholic, which I believe is covered under my "physically and mentally healthy" clause.

I can see the sexual one could be a problem, I must admit, if someone needed it more often than I am now capable of. Or wanted an act that I couldn't tolerate, although I'm not sure what that would be. (Edited to add, eg if they wanted an open relationship. So, okay, that! ) 

Actually I think the introvert with extrovert combination can work very well, but that's maybe for a different thread. 

Thanks for the input


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## RebuildingMe

I think having kids is the foremost reason for D. Whether it’s the first time around or second. Kids change everything in a relationship and some people aren’t cut out to be second best. Or maybe they think they will still be a priority after kids, but that’s rarely the case.


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## Faithful Wife

Laurentium said:


> Actually I think the introvert with extrovert combination can work very well, but that's maybe for a different thread.
> 
> Thanks for the input


I’m sure an intro/extrovert combo could work well for some, as could all of the other examples I made. But for others, it would not work. Some of us would want to have compatibility in some of the areas I described.

For me, as an introvert, being with an extrovert does not work well for me unless that person also understands the difference and understands what being an introvert is like for me. And it has been my experience that since there are more extroverts than introverts in the world, when I meet an extrovert they have never understood me and have basically made a lot of assumptions about introverts that don’t actually apply to me. This causes a basic incompatibility for ME, even though the extrovert may see no issue or incompatibility (which is kind of the problem).


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## StarFires

Livvie said:


> I do!
> 
> I know many couples in their second marriages who are MUCH happier than in their first marriages.
> 
> Hold on I'm counting...
> 
> 3 from my previous employment, including my 62 year old previous boss.
> 
> And, my current supervisor, my best friend, and 3 friends and two long time family friends.
> 
> Many people marry in their early to mid twenties and don't make a great/compatible choice.
> 
> Older, post first marriage partnership can often lead to waaaay better choice of partner for yourself.


Maaaaan, you can't look over somebody's fence and think their lives are.....anything. You have no idea what goes on behind closed doors. 10 people are waaayy too many think they are all happy. They may well be happier than in their first marriages, but there's no telling what each of these people endured in their first marriages.

What I've found is stepfamilies are awful - ESPECIALLY for women - and fail at a considerably higher rate than first marriages. The stats of 66% divorce rate for second marriages that Lila cited is low because it's a general and averaged number. Divorce rates for second marriages and divorce rates for second marriage w/ kids from the first marriage(s) are not the same. Kids make a big difference and impact the numbers. As Lila indicated, the baggage, responsibilities, and problems that come with second marriages are often insurmountable and serve to tear the couple apart. Oftentimes, the (stepkids' [both minors and adult]) goal is to tear them apart.

Something else I've found is people are less willing to divorce the second time around, so they tolerate all manner of disrespect and abuse (from spouse and stepchildren) out of fear of not having anyone (something is better than nothing mentality), out of fear of being labeled a two-time loser, and out of fear of growing old alone. Fear is a powerful motivator.

Some people get married the first time around for different reasons, such as they were pregnant, it was their first real romantic experience, or it's what they thought was the next logical step. So they weren't very selective the first time. They might be happy with their second choice of partner, but seldom does that translate to a better or happier relationship due to the extrinsic pressures on the second marriage.


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## Laurentium

Faithful Wife said:


> Some of us would want to have compatibility in some of the areas I described.


I am sure that's true. I wasn't trying to say everyone should be like me! I was (genuinely) puzzled as to what people mean by compatibility. 



> For me, as an introvert, being with an extrovert does not work well for me unless that person also understands the difference and understands what being an introvert is like for me. And it has been my experience that since there are more extroverts than introverts in the world, when I meet an extrovert they have never understood me and have basically made a lot of assumptions about introverts that don’t actually apply to me. This causes a basic incompatibility for ME, even though the extrovert may see no issue or incompatibility (which is kind of the problem).


That makes sense. I am an introvert myself. But UK culture may be kinder to introverts than US! :smile2:

I have learned, over time, not to automatically assume that if someone is extroverted it means they are stupid or insincere. 

And yes, it is annoying to have assumptions made. To me, it almost falls under the mental health thing, if someone is making assumptions about me and sticking to them even despite the evidence right in front of their eyes.


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## Tilted 1

Lila said:


> What makes you believe this? Have you experienced it yourself? Do you know people who have experienced this?


I am just a hopeless romantic, so far as l am concerned. I don't put too much expectations on my future.


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## zookeeper

Few people learn from their mistakes. They continue to repeat the same patterns from their past. That dooms them to make similar unhappy relationships with similarly mis-matched people.

I believe all people have the ability to change. Most won't put in the hard work and sacrifice necessary to do so. 

It's not that people can't find happiness, it's usually that they won't.


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## Faithful Wife

Laurentium said:


> That makes sense. I am an introvert myself. *But UK culture may be kinder to introverts than US!* :smile2:
> 
> I have learned, over time, not to automatically assume that if someone is extroverted it means they are stupid or insincere.
> 
> And yes, it is annoying to have assumptions made. To me, it almost falls under the mental health thing, if someone is making assumptions about me and sticking to them even despite the evidence right in front of their eyes.


Ha ha! Yes, I did not think of that but the UK may be a bit more introverted in general than the US.

I do not ever assume that someone who is extroverted is stupid or insincere. I just think they outnumber us (here anyway) and that they have not spent much or any time considering how uncomfortable it may be for an introvert to be around them while they are being extroverted. Since "most people are like them" to some degree, they don't have much experience with trying to understand people who are not like them.

Assumptions I have heard about introverts while I was trying to discuss with an extrovert how and why I am the way I am....

*I must be shy or insecure. (I am neither.)

*I must be jealous. (Because I am not fond of my date talking to strangers more than he talks to me on a date. Eye roll.)

*I must need and desire the extrovert to "help" me by "including me" in their conversations with strangers. (Happens most of the time, where in fact I wish for them NOT to try to include me in their conversations.)

*I must be unfriendly. (I am extremely friendly..._to people I actually know_. Although I am indifferent in my behavior towards strangers, I do have friendly thoughts and feelings about everyone. It's just that these feelings do not make me want to talk to someone I don't know.)


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## Lila

StarFires said:


> Divorce rates for second marriages and divorce rates for second marriage w/ kids from the first marriage(s) are not the same. *Kids make a big difference and impact the numbers.* As Lila indicated, the baggage, responsibilities, and problems that come with second marriages are often insurmountable and serve to tear the couple apart. Oftentimes, the (stepkids' [both minors and adult]) goal is to tear them apart.


Agreed! Kids make a HUGE difference. 

My son is not directly responsible for any of the decisions I make with regards to my personal life but I'm always thinking about him when deciding if I want to pursue a potential dating partner. 

If it's this difficult in the "getting to know you phase" where the only question I have is "do I introduce this man to my son", I can't imagine how difficult it must be to blend whole families with completely different personalities, upbringing, and their own set of emotional baggage. Yikes


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## Laurentium

Faithful Wife said:


> *I must need and desire the extrovert to "help" me by "including me" in their conversations with strangers. (Happens most of the time, where in fact I wish for them NOT to try to include me in their conversations.)


Lol yes, I hate being "interviewed" in that way


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## sokillme

I think success in marriage or long term relationships really requires certain skills. Some folks have it some don't. I think that's why you see some folks get married over and over. There is a kind of transition while dating from certain qualities which are important at first, to different ones.

I would think though that if you have a good marriage the first time there is not reason you can't have one again. But then again who knows how you got the first one, if you married your High school sweetheart you may just be lucky and never really developed your picker. That is a hard thing to do later in life.


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## StarFires

Lila said:


> Agreed! Kids make a HUGE difference.
> 
> My son is not directly responsible for any of the decisions I make with regards to my personal life but I'm always thinking about him when deciding if I want to pursue a potential dating partner.
> 
> If it's this difficult in the "getting to know you phase" where the only question I have is "do I introduce this man to my son", I can't imagine how difficult it must be to blend whole families with completely different personalities, upbringing, and their own set of emotional baggage. Yikes


Yep, that's exactly it. So imagine what it's like when the stepkids' deliberate intent is to cause havoc on the second (or third or whatever) marriage. When I wrote that, I should have said, "Kids make a big difference and impact the numbers....because they impact the relationship."

Just for the sake of economy, I didn't even mention the kids' mother. She is another barrier because she's part of the baggage. Men/Fathers don't cause problems nearly as often as women/mothers do, so she is another reason that "Kids make a big difference and impact the numbers....because they impact the relationship."


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## Married but Happy

Lila said:


> Sadly, the stats are rather dismal for people looking to find their next "happily ever after". Divorce rates are about 66% for 2nd marriages and almost 75% for third. The number of people getting "grey divorces" (over 55 years of age) is sharply increasing where younger people are declining. The number of people getting married is on the decline across the board with the sharpest decline being those over 50. This is also the group with the sharpest rise in cohabitation in the last decade.


I don't think the divorce rate - especially for subsequent divorces - is a good proxy for measuring happiness (statistically). IMO, even many lasting first marriages are not that happy - it's more about habit, belief systems, and/or fear of change that keeps many in unhappy situations. I remember a study from about a decade ago that in long-term marriages (20+ years), only about 20% of those are happy or at least content. As for subsequent marriages and divorce, I think it is much easier to divorce the second (or third, ...) time (less fear, less stigma, greater willingness to seek happiness). The fact that as many stay together as indicated, implies to me that subsequent marriages may
actually be better and happier. However, if you're so bad at relationships that you have to go to round three, it may means _you_ have some flaw that makes relationships difficult to maintain, and you may be happier without marriage.


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## StarFires

Married but Happy said:


> I don't think the divorce rate - especially for subsequent divorces - is a good proxy for measuring happiness (statistically). IMO, even many lasting first marriages are not that happy - it's more about habit, belief systems, and/or fear of change that keeps many in unhappy situations. I remember a study from about a decade ago that in long-term marriages (20+ years), only about 20% of those are happy or at least content.....The fact that as many stay together as indicated, implies to me that subsequent marriages may
> actually be better and happier.


I'm confused because that's confusing and contradictory. You said the divorce rate statistically is no indicator because long-term first marriages weren't or are not happy, and then you use the low fraction of second marriages that don't divorce as a barometer for happiness and success the second time around. That makes no sense.


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## Lila

Married but Happy said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sadly, the stats are rather dismal for people looking to find their next "happily ever after". Divorce rates are about 66% for 2nd marriages and almost 75% for third. The number of people getting "grey divorces" (over 55 years of age) is sharply increasing where younger people are declining. The number of people getting married is on the decline across the board with the sharpest decline being those over 50. This is also the group with the sharpest rise in cohabitation in the last decade.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think the divorce rate - especially for subsequent divorces - is a good proxy for measuring happiness (statistically). IMO, even many lasting first marriages are not that happy - it's more about habit, belief systems, and/or fear of change that keeps many in unhappy situations. I remember a study from about a decade ago that in long-term marriages (20+ years), only about 20% of those are happy or at least content. As for subsequent marriages and divorce, I think it is much easier to divorce the second (or third, ...) time (less fear, less stigma, greater willingness to seek happiness). The fact that as many stay together as indicated, implies to me that subsequent marriages may
> actually be better and happier. However, if you're so bad at relationships that you have to go to round three, it may means _you_ have some flaw that makes relationships difficult to maintain, and you may be happier without marriage.
Click to expand...

You and @faithfulwife are absolutely correct that divorce stats do not necessarily correlate to long-term partnering after a divorce. I also understand that the all time low rates for remarriage may not necessarily correlate to people not finding their "happily ever after". They were the closest things I could find since dating statistics are rare. 

I think anecdotal evidence is great but for every person that says "I know someone who met their "happily ever after"", they also know 10 who have not. That's all I'm saying. It's not that it's impossible, but the odds are not great. I think the odds for many "happy for now" relationships are high.


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## Married but Happy

StarFires said:


> I'm confused because that's confusing and contradictory. You said the divorce rate statistically is no indicator because long-term first marriages weren't or are not happy, and then you use the low fraction of second marriages that don't divorce as a barometer for happiness and success the second time around. That makes no sense.


First marriages/divorces are quite different from subsequent. More first marriages don't end in divorce because of fear and belief systems. However, once you've divorced once, the process is known and the fear is less, meaning that poor marriages are less likely to continue than for first marriages. The divorce rate is higher in subsequent marriages because fewer people are willing to put up with a bad situation, and know how to get out of it. So while fewer subsequent marriages last, I think those that do have a considerably higher percentage of happy couples than the first marriages that last.


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## SunCMars

Some notable things.....
For any new relationship to work.

You must know your failings.
You must own your failings.
You must rid yourself of those failings. At worst, hold them in abeyance. Hide em'

I call these behaviorism's failings. Other's view them this way. 
Ah, yes!

They are those idiosyncrasies that all of us own, though, do not need to bring to the forefront.

And you must know what outside forces work through you.


THRD-

message from Tapatalk


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## ReformedHubby

Maybe I am just glass half full, but I think the over whelming majority of us can find what we are looking for. If anything I think far too many people stay in situations out of fear of being alone. With that said...the process can be frustrating at times...but it can also be fun. I think all relationships take work, I can't speak for others but as long as I am with someone I love enough to work through issues with I am fine. In my marriage I just wasn't willing to work on it anymore because looking back, I didn't want it anymore. I guess I am not looking for perfect. I don't think it exists. But I do think finding someone you're happy to share your life with is very doable (I am not talking about a dog LoL, thats easy).


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## Lila

SunCMars said:


> Some notable things.....
> For any new relationship to work.
> 
> *You must know your failings.
> You must own your failings.
> You must rid yourself of those failings. At worst, hold them in abeyance. Hide em'*
> 
> I call these behaviorism's failings. Other's view them this way.
> Ah, yes!
> 
> They are those idiosyncrasies that all of us own, though, do not need to bring to the forefront.
> 
> And you must know what outside forces work through you.
> 
> 
> THRD-
> 
> message from Tapatalk


But that would make those people who make it work....perfect. They have no failings. It's impossible. We're human an fallible.

I think the relationships that work are those where one partner's failings are acceptable to the other and vice versa.


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## Lila

ReformedHubby said:


> Maybe I am just glass half full, but I think the over whelming majority of us can find what we are looking for. If anything I think far too many people stay in situations out of fear of being alone. With that said...the process can be frustrating at times...but it can also be fun. I think all relationships take work, I can't speak for others but as long as I am with someone I love enough to work through issues with I am fine. In my marriage I just wasn't willing to work on it anymore because looking back, I didn't want it anymore. I guess I am not looking for perfect. I don't think it exists. *But I do think finding someone you're happy to share your life with is very doable (I am not talking about a dog LoL, thats easy).*


Can you elaborate on the bolded? How do you think people should go about finding someone they can be happy with?


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## Marduk

My experience is that I only ended up with my current wife because of my first failed marriage. I literally would not have been likely to pursue a relationship with her had I not learned the lessons in my first "starter" marriage.

My mom and dad divorced at about the same time. He was building a company and basically spent all of his time doing that, to the detriment of everything else including his marriage. Then he capped it off by cheating on my mother.

My mother always said she never wanted to be married or in a long term relationship again. So she wasn't. Until she was older, and by then the years of being closed to other relationships had knocked her lifestyle so far away from an LTR it just was never in the cards for her... and she refused to drop her bitterness and resentment up until the very end. 

My dad took it on the chin in the divorce, not just financially but also with me for cheating, and had to spend years rebuilding a relationship with me. And always wanted to find someone, but struggled with traditional relationships - my mom had gone from being quite liberal to very conservative and he had done the opposite. He's since become quite new agey, and is now living with a woman.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I got divorced with the intention of finding someone else, my mom didn't, and my dad did. The ones that wanted to in my experience did find someone, and the ones that didn't, well... didn't.

I think what you need to do at any stage of your life is to decide what it is you want, make an honest assessment as to how to go about getting what you want, and then go for it, knowing you're going to stumble and bumble along the way.


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## Lila

Marduk said:


> I think what you need to do at any stage of your life is to decide what it is you want, make an honest assessment as to how to go about getting what you want, and then go for it, knowing you're going to stumble and bumble along the way.


I don't think it's as easy as you make it sound. A relationship takes two people, both looking for unique things in the other person. I think the older we get the more difficult it is to find that person, at least that's been my experience. 

Like I said, plenty of "good" people out there but finding two "good" people that check off each other's lists of wants is a lot more difficult than it seems on paper.


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## Diana7

Lila said:


> Sadly, the stats are rather dismal for people looking to find their next "happily ever after". Divorce rates are about 66% for 2nd marriages and almost 75% for third. The number of people getting "grey divorces" (over 55 years of age) is sharply increasing where younger people are declining. The number of people getting married is on the decline across the board with the sharpest decline being those over 50. This is also the group with the sharpest rise in cohabitation in the last decade.
> 
> All of this to say that people may not be finding their "happily ever after" but some are finding several "happys for now".
> 
> 
> 
> I think most people who enter into the singles scene after a long relationship learn quickly that it's best to accept reality. It takes an unshakeable optimist to hold out hope.
> 
> I'd rather not get my hopes up and if someone great finds me, then awesome. Otherwise I'm doing the things I can control.
> 
> 
> 
> I do believe there are plenty of "good catches" out there but the problem is finding good catches who are also compatible and that's the hard part. It's no longer boy meets girl, girl falls in love with boy, boy and girl live happily ever after. It's boy with emotional baggage and tons of responsibilities meets girl carrying emotional baggage and lots of responsibilities. Do they want to put in the effort to make it work? A lot of people will tell you it's easier to be single and just casually date for fun.


I have known quite a lot of second marriages that have lasted and that are happy including mine. I have to say that most of these marriages were between people who wouldn't have been interested in casual dating. I cant think of much that to me would be less fun than going on casual dates for the rest of my life. I would rather just not bother .


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## ReformedHubby

Lila said:


> Can you elaborate on the bolded? How do you think people should go about finding someone they can be happy with?


Ha, ha, I don't have the answer to that one. Just keep living I guess....I think we all have a check list in our heads of what makes an ideal partner to share our lives with. The only way to find that person is to meet people and get to know them. Lots of ways to do that. I don't mean to simplify it, but it is a process that can take time. Yep, looks like I've come up with a great nothing burger on my advice for the "how to" :rofl:. I didn't have issues meeting people though, its more that you have to meet a few before you feel the spark or chemistry that you're looking for, then hope that once you get to know one another very well that you still feel good about things.


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## Mr The Other

Livvie said:


> I do!
> 
> I know many couples in their second marriages who are MUCH happier than in their first marriages.
> 
> Hold on I'm counting...
> 
> 3 from my previous employment, including my 62 year old previous boss.
> 
> And, my current supervisor, my best friend, and 3 friends and two long time family friends.
> 
> Many people marry in their early to mid twenties and don't make a great/compatible choice.
> 
> Older, post first marriage partnership can often lead to waaaay better choice of partner for yourself.


You forgot me too!


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## Marduk

Lila said:


> I don't think it's as easy as you make it sound. A relationship takes two people, both looking for unique things in the other person. I think the older we get the more difficult it is to find that person, at least that's been my experience.
> 
> Like I said, plenty of "good" people out there but finding two "good" people that check off each other's lists of wants is a lot more difficult than it seems on paper.


What I describe is simple, but far from easy.

Deciding what you actually want is very hard.

It's even harder to accurately assess why you don't already have it, and what you need to do to get it.

Then it's exceptionally hard to go and do it, knowing that you still might fail.

I actually had a fully formed vision of who I wanted to be married to for life. It was fully detailed from the physical to the emotional to her values. It took me weeks to consider, think about, sleep on, etc. And during that time I didn't date anyone.

But when I found her, I knew she fit, knew what I wanted, and was relatively ruthless in getting it - and almost blew it because I took things too slow because I didn't want to screw it up.


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## Lila

ReformedHubby said:


> Ha, ha, I don't have the answer to that one. Just keep living I guess....I think we all have a check list in our heads of what makes an ideal partner to share our lives with. The only way to find that person is to meet people and get to know them. Lots of ways to do that. I don't mean to simplify it, but it is a process that can take time. Yep, looks like I've come up with a great nothing burger on my advice for the "how to" :rofl:. I didn't have issues meeting people though, its more that you have to meet a few before you feel the spark or chemistry that you're looking for, then hope that once you get to know one another very well that you still feel good about things.


Thanks anyways. I'm always interested in hearing what works for others. :smile2:


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## Lila

Marduk said:


> What I describe is simple, but far from easy.
> 
> Deciding what you actually want is very hard.
> 
> *It's even harder to accurately assess why you don't already have it, and what you need to do to get it.
> 
> Then it's exceptionally hard to go and do it, knowing that you still might fail.*
> 
> I actually had a fully formed vision of who I wanted to be married to for life. It was fully detailed from the physical to the emotional to her values. It took me weeks to consider, think about, sleep on, etc. And during that time I didn't date anyone.
> 
> But when I found her, I knew she fit, knew what I wanted, and was relatively ruthless in getting it - and almost blew it because I took things too slow because I didn't want to screw it up.


What do you think people should do if what they need to be changed cannot be changed? For example, height for men, age for women, etc...


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## Casual Observer

Marduk said:


> My experience is that I only ended up with my current wife because of my first failed marriage. I literally would not have been likely to pursue a relationship with her had I not learned the lessons in my first "starter" marriage.
> 
> My mom and dad divorced at about the same time. He was building a company and basically spent all of his time doing that, to the detriment of everything else including his marriage. Then he capped it off by cheating on my mother.
> 
> My mother always said she never wanted to be married or in a long term relationship again. So she wasn't. Until she was older, and by then the years of being closed to other relationships had knocked her lifestyle so far away from an LTR it just was never in the cards for her... and she refused to drop her bitterness and resentment up until the very end.
> 
> My dad took it on the chin in the divorce, not just financially but also with me for cheating, and had to spend years rebuilding a relationship with me. And always wanted to find someone, but struggled with traditional relationships - my mom had gone from being quite liberal to very conservative and he had done the opposite. He's since become quite new agey, and is now living with a woman.
> 
> *I guess what I'm trying to say is that I got divorced with the intention of finding someone else, my mom didn't, and my dad did. *The ones that wanted to in my experience did find someone, and the ones that didn't, well... didn't.
> 
> I think what you need to do at any stage of your life is to decide what it is you want, make an honest assessment as to how to go about getting what you want, and then go for it, knowing you're going to stumble and bumble along the way.


Unfortunately, your example could also suggest that it's easier for guys than women to find their new LTR spouse. Is your ex happily remarried? 

But we're not either statistics or anecdotes. In this case, @Lila is a real person and, from what we can see here, a very fine real person, someone who hails from Lake Wobegone, and to twist things a bit, she's likely strong, good-looking and above average.  It is the combine will of TAM users that things will work out well for her.


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## Faithful Wife

Lila said:


> I don't think it's as easy as you make it sound. A relationship takes two people, both looking for unique things in the other person. I think the older we get the more difficult it is to find that person, at least that's been my experience.
> 
> Like I said, plenty of "good" people out there but finding two "good" people that check off each other's lists of wants is a lot more difficult than it seems on paper.


Agree that’s its a different world to be looking for a partner when older versus younger. But IMO it’s better, we know who we are and what we are looking for when older. We won’t accept certain things we now know won’t work for us.

Where to find that match is still a hard one to answer. I think the best thing we can do it just put that energy out there and let the universe guide us to them. I know that’s a non answer but it’s the best I’ve got. :grin2:


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## Marduk

Lila said:


> What do you think people should do if what they need to be changed cannot be changed? For example, height for men, age for women, etc...


Everybody's got stuff they are attracted to that can't be changed. The point is to figure out what you:

1. just don't want for reasons that only need to make sense to you;
2. just need to have for similar reasons;
3. stuff you want but are flexible about;
4. stuff you don't want but are flexible about.

For example, these were on my list:

1. can't smoke. can't have a history of cheating. can't have a low sex drive or a bunch of hangups about sex. can't be excessively overweight. can't be intolerant of my eccentricity.
2. needs to actually be into me. needs to be intelligent and educated. needs to be capable of self-sufficiency. needs to have an extremely strong personality to balance me out. 
3. I wanted her to be shorter (ex was tall and it got old). wanted someone hot (actually had a clear vision of what that meant to me) and someone that enjoyed being a woman. wanted a brunette (ex was blonde, and most really bad relationships have been with blondes). wanted someone who's sexuality and sensuality was baked into their personality. wanted someone socially conscious.
4. didn't want someone with mommy/daddy issues. didn't want someone with an inflexible schedule. didn't want someone that wanted me to pay for everything. didn't want someone that I couldn't fight with.

Etc.

Do you know what your "must haves" or "can't haves" are? What your "want to haves" and "don't want to haves?"


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> Agree that’s its a different world to be looking for a partner when older versus younger. But IMO it’s better, we know who we are and what we are looking for when older. We won’t accept certain things we now know won’t work for us.
> 
> Where to find that match is still a hard one to answer. I think the best thing we can do it just put that energy out there and let the universe guide us to them. I know that’s a non answer but it’s the best I’ve got. :grin2:


I will say that I found my wife when I stopped looking for her.

But I will also say that if I hadn't been clear with myself with what I wanted, I probably would have been just as likely to hit on any of the other women around at the same time instead of her.


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## Marduk

Casual Observer said:


> Unfortunately, your example could also suggest that it's easier for guys than women to find their new LTR spouse. Is your ex happily remarried?


I haven't heard anything about her in a number of years, but as of four or five years ago, she had never remarried, or had kids, or even really had an LTR. Just a continual string of flings.



> But we're not either statistics or anecdotes. In this case, @Lila is a real person and, from what we can see here, a very fine real person, someone who hails from Lake Wobegone, and to twist things a bit, she's likely strong, good-looking and above average.  It is the combine will of TAM users that things will work out well for her.


She's awesome and I'm trying to help her. My mom had interest from any number of suitors; she shut them all down for one reason or another for a couple decades before she decided she maybe wanted a relationship. Or only picked guys that were only ever going to be casual for one reason or another. She wasn't a nun by any stretch of the imagination.

But her whole lifestyle was set up for her to be alone - and by the time she decided she wanted a relationship "maybe" she didn't really want to change her lifestyle that made having a relationship - or finding someone - very improbable.


----------



## StarFires

Married but Happy said:


> First marriages/divorces are quite different from subsequent. More first marriages don't end in divorce because of fear and belief systems. However, once you've divorced once, the process is known and the fear is less, meaning that poor marriages are less likely to continue than for first marriages. The divorce rate is higher in subsequent marriages because fewer people are willing to put up with a bad situation, and know how to get out of it. So while fewer subsequent marriages last, I think those that do have a considerably higher percentage of happy couples than the first marriages that last.


I liked your post because I understand the logic in your thinking now, and understand why you would think it. But I have to add that statistics show differently where stepfamilies are concerned. While you're right that divorce is not as scary as it was the first time around, people have even more and different fears of divorcing subsequent marriages as I noted in my first post, so that's one reason subsequent marriages last as long as they do and is not an indication of happiness.

*Psychology Today Article*
_"The reality, stepfamily expert James Bray tells us, is that even those remarriages with children that succeed are usually highly conflictual and difficult in the first two years, as all the parties struggle to adjust to change and find their footing."_

You can't think that's a happy time for the couple, and please believe it's the unhappiest, miserable, and most demeaning time for stepmothers.

In her book "Stepmonster: Why Real Stepmothers Think, Feel, And Act The Way We Do" by the same author as the above article, Dr. Martin poses that if a remarried couple can make it 7 years, there is a higher probablility of the marriage lasting. But most don't make it that long because they give up around the 4-year mark. 

This suggests that years 1-7 remain mostly conflictual and unhappy, which is another indication that second marriages, as few as they may be, don't stay together out of happiness. Most stepmothers during those years learn to disengage and accept the mistreatment (out of fear of another divorce and societal stigma) until she decides not to take it anymore, or the marriage ends for reasons out of her control.


----------



## Lila

Casual Observer said:


> Unfortunately, your example could also suggest that it's easier for guys than women to find their new LTR spouse. Is your ex happily remarried?
> 
> But we're not either statistics or anecdotes. In this case, @Lila is a real person and, from what we can see here, a very fine real person, someone who hails from Lake Wobegone, and to twist things a bit, she's likely strong, good-looking and above average.  It is the combine will of TAM users that things will work out well for her.


 @Casual Observer, you don't have to worry about me. Life would be much nicer if I had that special someone, but it'll go on even if I don't find one. :smile2:

I started this thread because the question was asked about the difficulties in finding another "happily ever after". It's possible I didn't make myself clear on that other thread but I do not for a minute believe that people should stay in an unhappy marriage however, I don't think they should leave it expecting to meeting someone else. They should leave when they are ready to accept living a life alone. If they happen to find someone else, then Great. If not, then no biggie.


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## Holdingontoit

Lila said:


> What do you think people should do if what they need to be changed cannot be changed? For example, height for men, age for women, etc...


There is nothing that needs to be changed once you are single. It is just a question of finding someone for whom the unchangeable aspect is not a barrier. If you are still with someone for whom some unchangeable aspect of you is unacceptable to them, best thing you can do for both of you is to break up.

So yes, it is tougher for short men (like me) to find a partner than for tall men, but assuming you are looking for 1 person to have a long term relationship then you don't need 99% of the target market to find you acceptable. You just need to find one who does. Harder to do than if you didn't have an unchangeable aspect that makes you less attractive to a high percentage of your target market. But not impossible.

Focus on what you can change.

All that said from the biggest eeyore on TAM, who stays despite there being more than one unchangeable aspect of myself that my wife finds unattractive, and some unchangeable aspects of her that I find terribly unhelpful. Do as I say and not as I do.


----------



## Lila

Faithful Wife said:


> Agree that’s its a different world to be looking for a partner when older versus younger. But IMO it’s better, we know who we are and what we are looking for when older. We won’t accept certain things we now know won’t work for us.
> 
> Where to find that match is still a hard one to answer. I think the best thing we can do it just put that energy out there and let the universe guide us to them. I know that’s a non answer but it’s the best I’ve got. :grin2:


I just want to tell you that you have an amazing energy. Keep it up lady!


----------



## Lila

Marduk said:


> Everybody's got stuff they are attracted to that can't be changed. The point is to figure out what you:
> 
> 1. just don't want for reasons that only need to make sense to you;
> 2. just need to have for similar reasons;
> 3. stuff you want but are flexible about;
> 4. stuff you don't want but are flexible about.
> 
> For example, these were on my list:
> 
> 1. can't smoke. can't have a history of cheating. can't have a low sex drive or a bunch of hangups about sex. can't be excessively overweight. can't be intolerant of my eccentricity.
> 2. needs to actually be into me. needs to be intelligent and educated. needs to be capable of self-sufficiency. needs to have an extremely strong personality to balance me out.
> 3. I wanted her to be shorter (ex was tall and it got old). wanted someone hot (actually had a clear vision of what that meant to me) and someone that enjoyed being a woman. wanted a brunette (ex was blonde, and most really bad relationships have been with blondes). wanted someone who's sexuality and sensuality was baked into their personality. wanted someone socially conscious.
> 4. didn't want someone with mommy/daddy issues. didn't want someone with an inflexible schedule. didn't want someone that wanted me to pay for everything. didn't want someone that I couldn't fight with.
> 
> Etc.
> 
> *Do you know what your "must haves" or "can't haves" are? What your "want to haves" and "don't want to haves*?"


Yes I absolutely do. I know what I want and what I definitely don't want in my life.


----------



## Lila

Holdingontoit said:


> There is nothing that needs to be changed once you are single. It is just a question of finding someone for whom the unchangeable aspect is not a barrier. If you are still with someone for whom some unchangeable aspect of you is unacceptable to them, best thing you can do for both of you is to break up.
> 
> So yes, it is tougher for short men (like me) to find a partner than for tall men, but assuming you are looking for 1 person to have a long term relationship then you don't need 99% of the target market to find you acceptable. You just need to find one who does. Harder to do than if you didn't have an unchangeable aspect that makes you less attractive to a high percentage of your target market. But not impossible.
> 
> *Focus on what you can change.*
> 
> All that said from the biggest eeyore on TAM, who stays despite there being more than one unchangeable aspect of myself that my wife finds unattractive, and some unchangeable aspects of her that I find terribly unhelpful. Do as I say and not as I do.


Ha, so now you've opened up a whole new can of worms with that statement. Should we be changing in order to please other people?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Casual Observer said:


> Unfortunately, your example could also suggest that it's easier for guys than women to find their new LTR spouse. Is your ex happily remarried?
> 
> .


Hmmm...in my anecdotal personal experience, no it’s not really easier for men than it is women. I know a lot of men (friends, relatives, exes) who would like to be married or have an LTR again but they are not being flooded with good options either. This is because I’m talking about more mature men who honestly do not want a shallow, sexual only relationship. They want a woman of substance and a commitment. If they were willing to accept a bit of fluff that won’t last, they could easily have that, no question. 

The guy I call my rebound boyfriend, the first guy I genuinely dated after my divorce (versus just fluff dates), had been divorced for 6 years when we met and he was anxious to find his life partner and get off the dating-go-round-coaster. I knew that wasn’t going to be me because I was not ready for that, but he was very much looking for a woman like me in most respects. Eventually we stopped the on again off again dating each other we had been doing as he needed to be free to look for someone who was ready for that. Just this last April, he finally found her (which I know because I stalked him on Facebook, lol). He has now been divorced for about 9 years. They are clearly very in love and very ready to take that next step. I’m happy for him and her too.

So even though it took him that long, I think he would say she was worth the wait. He had many options prior to me, women who would have happily devoted themselves to him but he just did not feel that connection with them that he was looking for. He clearly does feel it with this one. I expect to see them engaged by the end of the year.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Lila said:


> Ha, so now you've opened up a whole new can of worms with that statement. Should we be changing in order to please other people?


No. I definitely would not want someone else to change just to please me. I want him to be himself and let me feel or not feel how I will about his actual self. Not his adjusted self. 

That said, there are many ways I would like someone to accommodate me if/when necessary, and I’m happy to accommodate them as well. An example would be what I wrote yesterday about the intro/extroversion issue. I’m fine to be with an extrovert and do not want him to change, I just want him to accommodate my introversion in certain ways.


----------



## Marduk

Lila said:


> Yes I absolutely do. I know what I want and what I definitely don't want in my life.


Ok. So if Mr Right walked into a party you were at, and you chatted with him for a few minutes, you’d recognize him immediately?


----------



## Lila

Marduk said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I absolutely do. I know what I want and what I definitely don't want in my life.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok. So if Mr Right walked into a party you were at, and you chatted with him for a few minutes, you’d recognize him immediately?
Click to expand...

Lol, NO. If you have any criteria beyond the superficial, then there really is no way of knowing right away. I can tell you right away if there is initial attraction but nothing beyond that.


----------



## Marduk

Lila said:


> Lol, NO. If you have any criteria beyond the superficial, then there really is no way of knowing right away. I can tell you right away if there is initial attraction but nothing beyond that.


I did.

I immediately noticed that she checked all my boxes physically. Within 15 minutes of conversation I knew she was highly educated and driven. Our first phone conversation included a talk about epistemology and ethics as it pertains to relationships. I knew she was a non-smoker, I knew a lot of her relationship history, and I knew her interests.

That was all before we actually had a date.

By the time we had actually went on a couple dates, I knew she checked all my "must haves" and most of my "want to haves." And none of my "must not haves" and only a few "don't want to haves."

That's when I both got nervous and exited - because I knew.

Now, we can argue how well I had considered what I should be looking for, but I knew.


----------



## Lila

Marduk said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lol, NO. If you have any criteria beyond the superficial, then there really is no way of knowing right away. I can tell you right away if there is initial attraction but nothing beyond that.
> 
> 
> 
> I did.
> 
> I immediately noticed that she checked all my boxes physically. Within 15 minutes of conversation I knew she was highly educated and driven. Our first phone conversation included a talk about epistemology and ethics as it pertains to relationships. I knew she was a non-smoker, I knew a lot of her relationship history, and I knew her interests.
> 
> That was all before we actually had a date.
> 
> By the time we had actually went on a couple dates, I knew she checked all my "must haves" and most of my "want to haves." And none of my "must not haves" and only a few "don't want to haves."
> 
> That's when I both got nervous and exited - because I knew.
Click to expand...

Wow, that's impressive. 

Maybe I'll have that connection someday.


----------



## Marduk

Lila said:


> Wow, that's impressive.
> 
> Maybe I'll have that connection someday.


I'm a bit confused.

We weren't all that connected at that time. That's when I started to direct my undivided attention to her, and then the connection came.


----------



## Lila

Marduk said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, that's impressive.
> 
> Maybe I'll have that connection someday.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a bit confused.
> 
> We weren't all that connected at that time. That's when I started to direct my undivided attention to her, and then the connection came.
Click to expand...

Correction then. Maybe I'll find someone who finds me as interesting as I find them.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Marduk said:


> Ok. So if Mr Right walked into a party you were at, and you chatted with him for a few minutes, you’d recognize him immediately?


Not asking me, but I think I would. That was how I met my exh and I did know immediately. And even though we are divorced I still know I was right. He says the same, about seeing me, thinking “that’s her”, and approaching me with deliberate intent.

I think Lila would know, too!

But unfortunately you don’t know certain things in that initial moment...things like that they have a 2 and a 5 year old. :laugh:


----------



## Faithful Wife

Lila said:


> Lol, NO. If you have any criteria beyond the superficial, then there really is no way of knowing right away. I can tell you right away if there is initial attraction but nothing beyond that.


I think you would know. If it hasn’t ever happened to you like that, you just don’t know it yet, but you will instantly respond to someone who is “right”. Once that happens you never forget what it felt like and you would recognize it again if it happens.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Lila said:


> Lol, NO. If you have any criteria beyond the superficial, then there really is no way of knowing right away. I can tell you right away if there is initial attraction but nothing beyond that.


I wasn't especially attracted to my bf right away. He grew on me as we got to know each other.

Now I can't wait to get his clothes off.

It can happen. I've come to believe that lots of things can grow out of compatibility. It can create love and attraction....but the reverse is not true.


----------



## Faithful Wife

lifeistooshort said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lol, NO. If you have any criteria beyond the superficial, then there really is no way of knowing right away. I can tell you right away if there is initial attraction but nothing beyond that.
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't especially attracted to my bf right away. He grew on me as we got to know each other.
> 
> Now I can't wait to get his clothes off.
> 
> It can happen. I've come to believe that lots of things can grow out of compatibility. It can create love and attraction....but the reverse is not true.
Click to expand...

Excellent point, because I don’t think the stranger across the room and “knowing” is at all the only way good matches are sussed out. Slow and steady also wins races.


----------



## attheend02

Marduk said:


> I did.
> 
> I immediately noticed that she checked all my boxes physically. Within 15 minutes of conversation I knew she was highly educated and driven. Our first phone conversation included a talk about epistemology and ethics as it pertains to relationships. I knew she was a non-smoker, I knew a lot of her relationship history, and I knew her interests.
> 
> That was all before we actually had a date.
> 
> By the time we had actually went on a couple dates, I knew she checked all my "must haves" and most of my "want to haves." And none of my "must not haves" and only a few "don't want to haves."
> 
> That's when I both got nervous and exited - because I knew.
> 
> Now, we can argue how well I had considered what I should be looking for, but I knew.


But what if she turned out to have multiple personality disorder (I'm sure there is a new term for that...)

You CAN'T know until you get to know....

You may feel love at first sight, but reality sets in eventually ( not always to bad ends).


----------



## Lila

Faithful Wife said:


> I think Lila would know, too!
> 
> *But unfortunately you don’t know certain things in that initial moment...things like that they have a 2 and a 5 year old.* <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_smile_big.png" border="0" alt="" title="Laugh" ></a>


Exactly!! That's why I don't look to buy the gifted horse until I've looked in it's mouth 😉


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> Not asking me, but I think I would. That was how I met my exh and I did know immediately. And even though we are divorced I still know I was right. He says the same, about seeing me, thinking “that’s her”, and approaching me with deliberate intent.
> 
> I think Lila would know, too!
> 
> But unfortunately you don’t know certain things in that initial moment...things like that they have a 2 and a 5 year old. :laugh:


Ok both of you. 

Describe them to me. In as much detail as you can and are comfortable sharing.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Marduk said:


> Ok both of you.
> 
> Describe them to me. In as much detail as you can and are comfortable sharing.


Tall, dark, handsome, confident, has swagger but not trying to flaunt it, professional presentation (versus hipster, mountain man, body builder, etc).

Aside from what I can glean with my eyes, there is a magnetic pull between us, one which we both feel (I'm very connected to myself this way and know when I'm being drawn towards someone). The pull itself doesn't mean much more than chemistry is there. But it has to be there in great enough quantity that I feel it immediately.

This is all I would be able to determine in the first moment. The non-tangible things, such as when I met my ex-h, are ineffable. It's his vibe.


----------



## SpinyNorman

I think how people view marriage has changed a lot. I suspect that the % of people who think you should stay in a marriage if you no longer love each other is down a lot in the past 50 years. I'm sure the stigma of divorcing is down. Those things make divorce more acceptable to a lot of people. At the same time I think cohabiting has less stigma, and people are more clear-eyed about how a long term marriage will turn out, so they are less likely to get married to begin with. And I'm not sure any of this is bad.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> Tall, dark, handsome, confident, has swagger but not trying to flaunt it, professional presentation (versus hipster, mountain man, body builder, etc).
> 
> Aside from what I can glean with my eyes, there is a magnetic pull between us, one which we both feel (I'm very connected to myself this way and know when I'm being drawn towards someone). The pull itself doesn't mean much more than chemistry is there. But it has to be there in great enough quantity that I feel it immediately.
> 
> This is all I would be able to determine in the first moment. The non-tangible things, such as when I met my ex-h, are ineffable. It's his vibe.


Great. Your standard Don Draper.

What's he into? Not into?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Marduk said:


> Great. Your standard Don Draper.
> 
> What's he into? Not into?


Well, I did not watch Mad Men, but as I understand it Don was a womanizing creep and arrogant entitled dude.

So, no. That vibe would not appeal to me.

The vibe I would be leaning toward would be more like Patrick Swayze, maybe Keanu, maybe Mark Ruffalo, or somewhat Tom Selleck. These hot guys who are confident but not entitled or creeps. As I interpret their personality on and off screen, of course. Who knows what they are actually like.

If you are asking me to describe the guy further, versus just what I would feel and intuit from a first meet...

He’s into his own mental, physical and spiritual fitness, he’s into kindness and being a loving human being. He’s into bringing people together. He’s into being a good steward of the earth to the best of his ability. He’s into his own hobbies. He’s into his people, family, friends, etc. He helps them and they help him. He’s ready to love and be loved in the romantic and sexual sense. He’s funny and charismatic and sexy.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Faithful Wife said:


> Well, I did not watch Mad Men, but as I understand it Don was a womanizing creep and arrogant entitled dude.
> 
> So, no. That vibe would not appeal to me.
> 
> The vibe I would be leaning toward would be more like Patrick Swayze, maybe Keanu, maybe Mark Ruffalo, or somewhat Tom Selleck. These hot guys who are confident but not entitled or creeps. As I interpret their personality on and off screen, of course. Who knows what they are actually like.
> 
> If you are asking me to describe the guy further, versus just what I would feel and intuit from a first meet...
> 
> He’s into his own mental, physical and spiritual fitness, he’s into kindness and being a loving human being. He’s into bringing people together. He’s into being a good steward of the earth to the best of his ability. He’s into his own hobbies. He’s into his people, family, friends, etc. He helps them and they help him. He’s ready to love and be loved in the romantic and sexual sense. He’s funny and charismatic and sexy.


Quoting myself here...

Of course, who I am describing is basically my exh. I think a lot of people use the flaws in their exes to describe who would have been better for them. In my case, the pros about my exh are what I use as a checklist for any potential future LTR.


----------



## farsidejunky

This is all I can see in this conversation...











Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

"I know you"

Are thoughts that come to mind and heart just as frequently as...

"I love you"

Both come with deep calm, yet deep burning desire with all things us.

They are a common thread of our togetherness.

The best years are here because we get to share the best versions of us there is.

Each prepared in their own unique path, yet similar outcome.

This did not come without struggle, it came because we could see and appreciate the scars we carried, unafraid to let the other run their finger over them and share the stories of how they were earned.

We are here for another, two people who truly want to be together.

Watching cartoons on a Saturday morning, 3rd gear at 100 miles an hour, or close cuddles that embrace sleep... we fit.

We have overlapped another in many ways, in many places, over many years.... wonderful and almost amazing stories of why we were meant to be where we are.

Right here, right now... there is no place I would rather be than in her arms tonight.

I believe statistics are but the locks we place on our own outcomes.

I know her heart, because she lets me... and her mine.

Mutually assured...


----------



## Lila

farsidejunky said:


> This is all I can see in this conversation...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


That's funny. I see it as acknowledging and accepting reality so that I can plan my life around it better.


----------



## Lila

Marduk said:


> Ok both of you.
> 
> Describe them to me. In as much detail as you can and are comfortable sharing.


I would except that your brain would explode from frustration after reading it. 😄.


----------



## farsidejunky

Lila said:


> That's funny. I see it as acknowledging and accepting reality so that I can plan my life around it better.


Well, I almost posted this one, but then stopped myself to avoid being an insensitive ass...











Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Thor

Faithful Wife said:


> Perhaps this is more about the institution of marriage than it is about finding a new compatible partner and being happy with them?.


Agreed.

Statistics are also showing that many of the over-50 singles don't plan to remarry but are in an ltr. Young people almost always end up married (in the USA) rather than live together perpetually without being married. 

Divorce stats only count marriages which end. They don't count those in ltrs. Furthermore there are age bracket factors which won't be captured in simple statistics.

I know many very happy people in either 2nd marriages or ltrs who are past the age of having children in the home.


----------



## 2&out

Agree with Thor. For some older people getting married has more penalties than benefits. So the legal part is not done. There is another active TAM thread about insurance beneficiaries that is a perfect example. Eff that - no one is telling me who mine are and no way will I ever allow someone any legal ability to influence.

Not sure getting married and finding a long term partner are related. To me they are not. I think as we get older there is just no reason to. No kids involved etc.


----------



## minimalME




----------



## Thor

2&out said:


> There is another active TAM thread about insurance beneficiaries that is a perfect example.


Can you point me towards that thread?


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> Quoting myself here...
> 
> Of course, who I am describing is basically my exh. I think a lot of people use the flaws in their exes to describe who would have been better for them. In my case, the pros about my exh are what I use as a checklist for any potential future LTR.


Ok so what specifically are the cons?


----------



## Marduk

Lila said:


> I would except that your brain would explode from frustration after reading it. 😄.


My point is to be extremely clear with yourself. 

It sets an intentionality. 

It allows you to recognize it fully when you see it. 

It also allows you to build a plan to adjust the odds in your favour.


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> This is all I can see in this conversation...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Optimism and pessimism are merely tools your mind uses.

Pessimism protects the ego from harm. 

Optimism protects your ability to move forward in spite of the probability of failure. 

Both only function to distract from reason unless you use them purposefully as the tools they are.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Marduk said:


> My point is to be extremely clear with yourself.
> 
> It sets an intentionality.
> 
> It allows you to recognize it fully when you see it.
> 
> It also allows you to build a plan to adjust the odds in your favour.


I'm pretty clear on all of it, the pros and cons. Listing them here probably won't help anyone else, though of course we are all curious about each other. I've always been pretty accurate when I meet someone if they fit into my list or not. Sometimes I'll go forward anyway because it doesn't matter if it lasts or not. Other times I will not proceed because I'm looking for something closer to my list.

This week I decided to take a break from dating, closed down all my apps, and am just focused on myself and my family. Dating takes a lot of work and I'm just kind of tired right now, have a lot of other things going on.

However, if "he" walked into my office one day or I saw him checking me out at the grocery store, I would still recognize him.

And in the meantime, my ex and I do hang out a lot, which is kind of like dating without sex. :laugh:


----------



## 2&out

Thor - "Lost Soul after 13 years".


----------



## farsidejunky

Marduk said:


> Optimism and pessimism are merely tools your mind uses.
> 
> 
> 
> Pessimism protects the ego from harm.
> 
> 
> 
> Optimism protects your ability to move forward in spite of the probability of failure.
> 
> 
> 
> Both only function to distract from reason unless you use them purposefully as the tools they are.


Let me kindly point you towards my second post with that theme...



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Lila

Marduk said:


> My point is to be extremely clear with yourself.
> 
> It sets an intentionality.
> 
> It allows you to recognize it fully when you see it.
> 
> *It also allows you to build a plan to adjust the odds in your favour*.


How does that even work?


----------



## Lila

Thor said:


> I know many very happy people in either 2nd marriages or ltrs who are past the age of having children in the home.


Would you say you know more happy people in 2nd + marriages or long term relationships, or unpartnered people past child rearing ages?


----------



## Affaircare

I find this thread very interesting, but like @Marduk and @Emerging Buddhist, I think the biggest portion of this is not numbers and statistics but rather knowing yourself. 

After my divorce from exH, I took 4 1/2 years off to get over the divorce and get my head on straight. I learned how to distinguish abusive from assertive, how to maintain my own self-worth, and how to identify a healthy relationship. I also learned about myself and what IS and IS NOT a good fit for me. I learned my Myers-Briggs personality type. I learned my love languages. I went to support groups (after marriage and surviving an abusive partner). I journaled A LOT!! 

With Dear Hubby, I knew that I needed a man of peace and calm. I knew I was an INFP and needed someone near enough to that personality that relating wouldn't be a constant struggle. I knew I tended to like red-heads. I knew I loved children and the lovely chaos they bring into a household. I knew I was spiritual and tended toward Christianity, but I wasn't close-minded to other paths. I knew I needed someone at least as intelligent as I am...and if he was more intelligent that was more of an attraction. I knew I loved the person in their mind and heart, and then I grew to love their exterior...and that gender didn't matter. I knew I wanted someone with values and morals which were similar to mine. I knew I wanted someone who was a geek. I knew I wanted a guy who was into something but not so into it that they'd ignore me. I knew I liked various kinds of coffee (I'm a coffee snob), reading, writing, hiking, dog shows, playing in the snow, movies, and science fiction. This is a LOT to know!! 

When I knew all that...I began trying to date. My OLD attempts just did not work, because I am not a "meat market" kind of person. It's not how I operate! So I did things I always wanted to do, and met folks who enjoyed the same things I did. That method worked a lot better for me, because even if we didn't click romantically, I met some amazing people. 

Having met and married Dear Hubby, I clearly still had a lot to learn, and due to his grace and loyalty, I did learn what commitment truly means, and what transparent honestly looks like in a relationship, and what long-term love is like (it's an action ... not a feeling). I learned that True Love is real and that you very literally can love someone more every day. So from Dear Hubby, I grew even more in my understanding of what I want and do not want, what I would prefer and not prefer. 

When Dear Hubby died, I sincerely thought he had ruined me for all other men. After all, it's not like lightening strikes twice. Furthermore, we had the blessing of the kind of love most people hope for and never find. So I was ready, willing, and able to have been grateful for the time I had with him. The end. But then I met Beloved Hubby. 

I knew of him from here on TAM. I knew he was one of the good ones, a decent person, but beyond that I didn't think of him at all. But once we started to talk just a little, I recognized him. My soul recognized his soul. I knew very quickly knew that he was a person of interest, and he checked all the must-haves and didn't have one of the can't-haves. Then over time I learned more about him and got to know him even better, he had most of my prefer-to-haves and didn't have my prefer-not-to-haves. The one and only thing that is a little different about EB than my previous relationships is that he's only 5'8" tall (my others were very big, barrel-chested, mountain man types), and what I've found by being open to that difference is that we fit together SOOOOOOO much better, it's humorous! I now think maybe I should have liked the broad-shouldered smaller guys all along! [NOTE TO SELF: I myself am only 4'10" and built strongly--I don't blow over in the wind.]

In conclusion, I think that finding another love has so much more to do with YOU than it does with "them." I knew my own self and knew what would compliment me. I knew I would be 100% happy all by myself. I knew I had the ability to love, and love well. I enjoying loving and sharing life, but that is all stuff about myself that I developed and worked at: how to be vulnerably honest, how to respectfully disagree, how to catch my own anger and stop before I am hurtful, how to recognize rightful authority, how to serve in a relationship (not expect to be served), how understand differences are okay, how to control myself and not them... All these things are about ME being a kind, compassionate, loving person, not "them" being "the One" or "a perfect match." EB is not perfect nor am I, but we are growing and choosing to grow together.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Lila said:


> How does that even work?


It's woo woo stuff. It works by energy and vibration.


----------



## Lila

Faithful Wife said:


> It's woo woo stuff. It works by energy and vibration.


Abraham Hicks, is that you?:wink2::smile2:


----------



## Thor

Lila said:


> Would you say you know more happy people in 2nd + marriages or long term relationships, or unpartnered people past child rearing ages?


Hmm, I'm thinking about that.

I do know a lot of happy people who don't have kids in the house anymore, either single or in some kind of ltr (married or not). To some extent I think it depends on the person's interests and goals, but generally I think after a certain number of years (3-5?) those who remain single are less happy. Having a long term partner seems to bring more happiness. Some are quite content being unattached but I don't think they have as much joy in their lives in general.

Those who stay single for a few years seem to be happier in the long run than those who remarry quickly. A quick 2nd marriage seems to be a poor idea in general though I certainly know some exceptions to that. Staying single for a few years seems to be helpful in finding oneself again. Staying single forever seems to bring loneliness.

Of course each individual is their own case, and I recognize that my slice of the planet is a bit more traditional in values than others.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Lila said:


> Abraham Hicks, is that you?:wink2::smile2:


I've been an Abe student for decades. :grin2:

Even went on one of the cruises!


----------



## Lila

Faithful Wife said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abraham Hicks, is that you?<a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_wink.png" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" ></a><a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_smile.png" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" ></a>
> 
> 
> 
> I've been an Abe student for decades. <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_grin.png" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" ></a>
> 
> Even went on one of the cruises!
Click to expand...

Oh wow! Did you get to ask a question? 

I listen to her YouTube questions and answers on my way to work.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Lila said:


> Oh wow! Did you get to ask a question?
> 
> I listen to her YouTube questions and answers on my way to work.


Oh no.....I hid in the very back on a top deck so that there was no way I could get called on. Too introverted!!! I mean, there are over 1,000 people there all looking right at whoever is on stage PLUS they have a huge screen of your face while you are talking so everyone can see your face up close. Yikes! I was super impressed with those who were brave like that.

I have also attended her seminar in Portland where it is much less intimidating and we are all just in a hotel conference room...but I still hid in the back. 0

But the cruise was an absolute blast, I had so much fun mixing it up with all the other students all over the boat, in the bars, restaurants, by the pools, hot tubs, on deck...there were so many of them and they were all so fun.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Thor said:


> Hmm, I'm thinking about that.
> 
> I do know a lot of happy people who don't have kids in the house anymore, either single or in some kind of ltr (married or not). To some extent I think it depends on the person's interests and goals, but generally I think after a certain number of years (3-5?) those who remain single are less happy. Having a long term partner seems to bring more happiness. *Some are quite content being unattached but I don't think they have as much joy in their lives in general.*
> 
> Those who stay single for a few years seem to be happier in the long run than those who remarry quickly. A quick 2nd marriage seems to be a poor idea in general though I certainly know some exceptions to that. Staying single for a few years seems to be helpful in finding oneself again. * Staying single forever seems to bring loneliness.*
> 
> Of course each individual is their own case, and I recognize that my slice of the planet is a bit more traditional in values than others.


Really who are you, or anyone else, to judge how other people feel just because they are single/unattached? Being on your own does NOT equate to either loneliness or an absence of joy! Sometimes having someone else in your life is just a giant pain in the ass!


----------



## Lila

Faithful Wife said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh wow! Did you get to ask a question?
> 
> I listen to her YouTube questions and answers on my way to work.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh no.....I hid in the very back on a top deck so that there was no way I could get called on. Too introverted!!! I mean, there are over 1,000 people there all looking right at whoever is on stage PLUS they have a huge screen of your face while you are talking so everyone can see your face up close. Yikes! I was super impressed with those who were brave like that.
> 
> I have also attended her seminar in Portland where it is much less intimidating and we are all just in a hotel conference room...but I still hid in the back. <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_angel.png" border="0" alt="" title="Angel" ></a>
> 
> But the cruise was an absolute blast, I had so much fun mixing it up with all the other students all over the boat, in the bars, restaurants, by the pools, hot tubs, on deck...there were so many of them and they were all so fun.
Click to expand...

Yeah I don't think I'd ask a question either. She's very intimidating. She does have great humor.


----------



## Lila

3Xnocharm said:


> Really who are you, or anyone else, to judge how other people feel just because they are single/unattached? Being on your own does NOT equate to either loneliness or no joy! Sometimes having someone else in your life is just a giant pain in the ass!


Whoa @3Xnocharm. I think you might have misinterpreted @Thor. He's just relaying his perceptions based on what he knows about the people in his social circle. It's the same as people saying "I know lots of single/unattached people and they seem to be happier than the attached ones". The key word is "seem". It's perspective. No one can really know what's going on in anyone else's head.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm pretty clear on all of it, the pros and cons. Listing them here probably won't help anyone else, though of course we are all curious about each other. I've always been pretty accurate when I meet someone if they fit into my list or not. Sometimes I'll go forward anyway because it doesn't matter if it lasts or not. Other times I will not proceed because I'm looking for something closer to my list.
> 
> This week I decided to take a break from dating, closed down all my apps, and am just focused on myself and my family. Dating takes a lot of work and I'm just kind of tired right now, have a lot of other things going on.
> 
> However, if "he" walked into my office one day or I saw him checking me out at the grocery store, I would still recognize him.
> 
> And in the meantime, my ex and I do hang out a lot, which is kind of like dating without sex. :laugh:


Cool, I'll leave it at that... with a gentle suggestion that when I've continued to hang out with my ex's... or have had friends do the same... they rarely seem to be able to find a new relationship.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Marduk said:


> Cool, I'll leave it at that... with a gentle suggestion that when I've continued to hang out with my ex's... or have had friends do the same... they rarely seem to be able to find a new relationship.


Yes, neither of us has moved on. We know that. Not sure we want to. It's complicated.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Lila said:


> Whoa @3Xnocharm. I think you might have misinterpreted @Thor. He's just relaying his perceptions based on what he knows about the people in his social circle. It's the same as people saying "I know lots of single/unattached people and they seem to be happier than the attached ones". The key word is "seem". It's perspective. No one can really know what's going on in anyone else's head.


Reads to me like a generalization. Either way, it seems to be a sweeping judgement.


----------



## Marduk

Lila said:


> How does that even work?


Let's say your odds of finding Mr Right are currently 1% just behaving randomly. So that sucks.

But if you have a crystal clear image of Mr Right in your mind for whatever attributes matter to you - physical, mental, spiritual or whatever... you'll increase your odds of at least being able to differentiate Mr Right from all the Mr Wrongs that would be attractive but would also distract you from your goal.

So if you fix, say, the physical parameters that matter and don't matter, you can pick out potential candidates in whatever crowds you already operate in. Let's call that +10% for ****s and giggles.

Then you can hone in on actually talking to the dude, and rapidly assessing if he fits the mental characteristics you're looking for, maybe even before you date. Let's call that another +10%.

Then, you ask him out. You can find out the other 'must haves' and 'can't haves' very rapidly because you already know what you're looking for. You immediately abandon dating dudes that don't match and move on to dudes that do. +10%.

So your baseline odds with no real changes to your lifestyle have gone from 1% to 31%. Not great, but a helluva lot better than 1% just hoping for random chance. You can of course massively increase those odds by dating a lot of people for a very short period of time - 1-3 dates, say. 

Now you're going to develop some characteristics for Mr Right. What's he into? What job is he likely to do? 

If he's a corporate type... well, then you better start showing up at corporate type events and exploiting your friend network that gets invited to corporate type stuff. If he's a philanthropist, then you gotta do charity stuff. If he's a fitness junkie, then you gotta do fitness stuff. Etc. Be where he's already going to be, know the people that already know him, exploit your networks to your advantage. Target your friends with what exactly you're looking for.

When I was single and wanted to date, I made friends with lots of women... and then didn't sleep with them. Often they were in relationships and I made friends with their guy friends too. All those people would set me up all the time.

Even when I decided "**** it, I'm just going to be single, this is too exhausting," I had one of those friends (a guy) go to one of his friends parties (a girl I also knew)... and they both insisted I come to a party I didn't want to go to. And there was my future wife, at a party I didn't want to go to but was talked into going to, because my network of friends knew exactly who I was looking for. And there she was.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, neither of us has moved on. We know that. Not sure we want to. It's complicated.


And that likely plays a role in your future relationships.

If I were single and met you, and for some reason you were into me, I wouldn't date you. Your relationship history, drug use, and the rest of it wouldn't bother me - but your ex would immediately make me not interested in you at all. Comparable to something like smoking for me in terms of "ugh". I suspect I'm not alone.

Plus, the energy and time you invest in a dead relationship is energy and time you could be using elsewhere.

But I'm a ruthless ******* when I'm intent on a goal, so your mileage may vary.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> It's woo woo stuff. It works by energy and vibration.


Lol, I'm not talking about "the secret" BS with intentionality and love and light.

If you're lost, you need to know two things to find your way: where you are, and where you need to go. Then you can build yourself a path to get there.

If you have a goal, you need to know two things: an honest assessment of where you're at, and a clear idea of what your goal actually is. Then you can build a gap closure plan to achieve your goal.

As Conan said in the original movie when praying to Crom: "To hell with you! I'll do it myself." Leave the mystical stuff to the mystics. When in doubt, do the work. I find 9 times out of 10 in my own life, when I don't have what I want, it's because I never did the work to get it, or didn't actually decide that I wanted it to begin with.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Marduk said:


> And that likely plays a role in your future relationships.
> 
> If I were single and met you, and for some reason you were into me, I wouldn't date you. Your relationship history, drug use, and the rest of it wouldn't bother me - but your ex would immediately make me not interested in you at all. Comparable to something like smoking for me in terms of "ugh". I suspect I'm not alone.
> 
> Plus, the energy and time you invest in a dead relationship is energy and time you could be using elsewhere.
> 
> But I'm a ruthless ******* when I'm intent on a goal, so your mileage may vary.


All of the above is why I have specifically avoided anyone who wants to lock me down, be committed, expects a future, or wants to emotionally invest in me too deeply. I don't date dudes who are "ruthlessly" trying to find a wife or LTR.

As for the "dead relationship" comment....you just don't know. Not that you could know, but you just don't. It is not black and white, as I said, it's complicated.

Keep in mind, I'm not lacking in offers. There are lots of people who for their own reasons are not looking for a deeper commitment. I know you love your wife and your marriage. But that is not the only type of relationship that is possible. But I know you are trying to spread the lovins' and are hopeful for some of us single gals to find what you have. Some of us are not looking for that, though, and therefore what we want and how we find it may not follow the same lines.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Marduk said:


> Lol, I'm not talking about "the secret" BS with intentionality and love and light.
> 
> If you're lost, you need to know two things to find your way: where you are, and where you need to go. Then you can build yourself a path to get there.
> 
> If you have a goal, you need to know two things: an honest assessment of where you're at, and a clear idea of what your goal actually is. Then you can build a gap closure plan to achieve your goal.
> 
> As Conan said in the original movie when praying to Crom: "To hell with you! I'll do it myself." Leave the mystical stuff to the mystics. When in doubt, do the work. I find 9 times out of 10 in my own life, when I don't have what I want, it's because I never did the work to get it, or didn't actually decide that I wanted it to begin with.


You have your way, I have mine. Mine's doing very well for me and is all about the woo woo. :smile2:

Keeping in mind that I spend more time working towards personal goals with the woo woo stuff than I do finding a boyfriend. :laugh:


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> All of the above is why I have specifically avoided anyone who wants to lock me down, be committed, expects a future, or wants to emotionally invest in me too deeply. I don't date dudes who are "ruthlessly" trying to find a wife or LTR.


Am I wrong in thinking that you have stated before that you're looking for some kind of monogamous LTR?



> As for the "dead relationship" comment....you just don't know. Not that you could know, but you just don't. It is not black and white, as I said, it's complicated.


Alarm bells just went off for me that you might not be ready for an LTR.



> Keep in mind, I'm not lacking in offers. There are lots of people who for their own reasons are not looking for a deeper commitment. I know you love your wife and your marriage. But that is not the only type of relationship that is possible. But I know you are trying to spread the lovins' and are hopeful for some of us single gals to find what you have. Some of us are not looking for that, though, and therefore what we want and how we find it may not follow the same lines.


I don't think it matters what you're looking for.

I think it matters that you're 100% clear with yourself what you're looking for, and clear with those that can help you find what you're looking for.

Now all I'm thinking is that you want your ex, minus some stuff that made you two incompatible. Which makes dating pointless and a distraction, if what you actually want is your ex with some modifications.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Lila said:


> Sadly, the stats are rather dismal for people looking to find their next "happily ever after". Divorce rates are about 66% for 2nd marriages and almost 75% for third. The number of people getting "grey divorces" (over 55 years of age) is sharply increasing where younger people are declining. The number of people getting married is on the decline across the board with the sharpest decline being those over 50. This is also the group with the sharpest rise in cohabitation in the last decade.
> 
> All of this to say that people may not be finding their "happily ever after" but some are finding several "happys for now".
> 
> 
> 
> I think most people who enter into the singles scene after a long relationship learn quickly that it's best to accept reality. It takes an unshakeable optimist to hold out hope.
> 
> I'd rather not get my hopes up and if someone great finds me, then awesome. Otherwise I'm doing the things I can control.
> 
> 
> 
> I do believe there are plenty of "good catches" out there but the problem is finding good catches who are also compatible and that's the hard part. It's no longer boy meets girl, girl falls in love with boy, boy and girl live happily ever after. It's boy with emotional baggage and tons of responsibilities meets girl carrying emotional baggage and lots of responsibilities. Do they want to put in the effort to make it work? A lot of people will tell you it's easier to be single and just casually date for fun.


I heard, I can't say for sure, that casual sex and / or grey cohabitation at many retirement communities is on the rise, maybe rampant.

It would be interesting to investigate maybe out of pure curiosity.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Marduk said:


> Am I wrong in thinking that you have stated before that you're looking for some kind of monogamous LTR?
> 
> Alarm bells just went off for me that you might not be ready for an LTR.
> 
> I don't think it matters what you're looking for.
> 
> I think it matters that you're 100% clear with yourself what you're looking for, and clear with those that can help you find what you're looking for.
> 
> Now all I'm thinking is that you want your ex, minus some stuff that made you two incompatible. Which makes dating pointless and a distraction, if what you actually want is your ex with some modifications.


A lot happened while you were gone, and I posted a lot about my journey that you have missed.

Basically though, a monogamous LTR does not have to be a deeply committed one that is focused on a "forever future" together. I have specifically dated people who for their own reasons also do not focus on "forever".

I may never be ready for a "forever" situation again, as I have specifically stated here several times that I will never marry or live with anyone again.

Again - you are kind of hung up on how people should be, I think. We are not all the same, not all looking for the same thing, don't have the same values, don't have the same relationship goals.

Also like I said, I have no shortage of offers - - from people who also are not looking for forever. You don't need to worry about me. Just because someone doesn't want a forever commitment does not mean they are "wrong" or broken or something. You "old marrieds" sometimes, you may think everyone should be like you. But we aren't. :laugh:


----------



## Faithful Wife

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I heard, I can't say for sure, that casual sex and / or grey cohabitation at many retirement communities is on the rise, maybe rampant.
> 
> It would be interesting to investigate maybe out of pure curiosity.


My mom recently moved into a really hip retirement community. I'm always kind of glancing around in the hallways and thinking "who is zooming who around here?" :grin2:


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> A lot happened while you were gone, and I posted a lot about my journey that you have missed.
> 
> Basically though, a monogamous LTR does not have to be a deeply committed one that is focused on a "forever future" together. I have specifically dated people who for their own reasons also do not focus on "forever".
> 
> I may never be ready for a "forever" situation again, as I have specifically stated here several times that I will never marry or live with anyone again.


I don't believe in forever. We all die. Therefore, all relationships end. Even if you believe in an afterlife, then at the very least, all relationships change to an extent that they are totally different.

All that lives, dies. All that lives, changes. Therefore "forever" is meaningless.

I'm also trying to put what you said above together with what you said elsewhere:



Faithful Wife said:


> I broke it off because it was turning out that he did not have the amount of free time that I need and want (he has 2 kids). That was a couple of weeks ago now. I was bummed. He protested a bit but he just wasn't willing or able (not sure which) to give me more time. I am not really a needy person, but if I'm in a relationship I want to have sex several times a week and I won't really budge on that point. So what happened was there was a week where his kids, job, football, and friends (he went out of town to help some friends do an improvement project on their second home) all got in the way of me and we only got together once that week. I ended it right then. He said this was an unusual week and it would not usually be that way and he was sorry. But....I just knew it would end up being that way again. I could just feel it. I mean, I'm not going to ever expect someone to give up hobbies or friends for time with me, but I will expect them to work around those things and make sure they see me.
> 
> I think honestly the guy was kind of freaked out by how into each other we were and was kind of trying to put some brakes on, that's probably what I was sensing. I think he thought I wanted "more" of him but I actually just wanted more sex. (Which is silly I know, it was really only 1 week that happened like that....again, I just had a feeling it would happen again and I wasn't willing to take that chance).
> 
> But after we hadn't talked for a few days, I also remembered other things I wasn't into about him, ways we were not compatible, and overall I decided I had made the right choice.
> 
> So...it has been lonely and yes it was disappointing, we did really dig each other.
> 
> But FFS, no boyfriend of mine will go a week without having sex with me or else he is not my boyfriend, NO SECOND CHANCES. :grin2:


Which means you basically want someone available to you continuously for sex, which sounds an awful lot like a commitment.

Plus:



Faithful Wife said:


> I'm bummed too. Not really about him specifically, just bummed because I'm lonely and it is hard and time consuming to find a good match.


Which means you are unhappy being single.


This will be my last post on the matter because I don't want to badger you and because I know you've got your **** together, but I am struggling putting all of that together in my mind in a way that makes sense. Plus your posts about your ex.


> Again - you are kind of hung up on how people should be, I think. We are not all the same, not all looking for the same thing, don't have the same values, don't have the same relationship goals.
> 
> Also like I said, I have no shortage of offers - - from people who also are not looking for forever. You don't need to worry about me. Just because someone doesn't want a forever commitment does not mean they are "wrong" or broken or something. You "old marrieds" sometimes, you may think everyone should be like you. But we aren't. :laugh:


I'm not trying to make everyone like me. If you're happy being single, be single. If you're happy in purely sexual relationships, then go do that. 

My goal here is to help you - and everyone - be clear with themselves in what they want, and then decide if they're going to go after it or not.


----------



## Thor

3Xnocharm said:


> Really who are you, or anyone else, to judge how other people feel just because they are single/unattached? Being on your own does NOT equate to either loneliness or an absence of joy! Sometimes having someone else in your life is just a giant pain in the ass!


I was asked my observations of people I know and I gave my answer. Which did include qualifications that it was generalities.


----------



## farsidejunky

Marduk said:


> Let's say your odds of finding Mr Right are currently 1% just behaving randomly. So that sucks.
> 
> But if you have a crystal clear image of Mr Right in your mind for whatever attributes matter to you - physical, mental, spiritual or whatever... you'll increase your odds of at least being able to differentiate Mr Right from all the Mr Wrongs that would be attractive but would also distract you from your goal.
> 
> So if you fix, say, the physical parameters that matter and don't matter, you can pick out potential candidates in whatever crowds you already operate in. Let's call that +10% for ****s and giggles.
> 
> Then you can hone in on actually talking to the dude, and rapidly assessing if he fits the mental characteristics you're looking for, maybe even before you date. Let's call that another +10%.
> 
> Then, you ask him out. You can find out the other 'must haves' and 'can't haves' very rapidly because you already know what you're looking for. You immediately abandon dating dudes that don't match and move on to dudes that do. +10%.
> 
> So your baseline odds with no real changes to your lifestyle have gone from 1% to 31%. Not great, but a helluva lot better than 1% just hoping for random chance. You can of course massively increase those odds by dating a lot of people for a very short period of time - 1-3 dates, say.
> 
> Now you're going to develop some characteristics for Mr Right. What's he into? What job is he likely to do?
> 
> If he's a corporate type... well, then you better start showing up at corporate type events and exploiting your friend network that gets invited to corporate type stuff. If he's a philanthropist, then you gotta do charity stuff. If he's a fitness junkie, then you gotta do fitness stuff. Etc. Be where he's already going to be, know the people that already know him, exploit your networks to your advantage. Target your friends with what exactly you're looking for.
> 
> When I was single and wanted to date, I made friends with lots of women... and then didn't sleep with them. Often they were in relationships and I made friends with their guy friends too. All those people would set me up all the time.
> 
> Even when I decided "**** it, I'm just going to be single, this is too exhausting," I had one of those friends (a guy) go to one of his friends parties (a girl I also knew)... and they both insisted I come to a party I didn't want to go to. And there was my future wife, at a party I didn't want to go to but was talked into going to, because my network of friends knew exactly who I was looking for. And there she was.


What's funny is this is marketing 101.

What's not so funny is that it works.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> What's funny is this is marketing 101.
> 
> What's not so funny is that it works.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


At the end of the day, math always wins.

Everything else is just hand waiving about whether you like that or not.


----------



## Wolf1974

Lila said:


> Would you say you know more happy people in 2nd + marriages or long term relationships, or unpartnered people past child rearing ages?


I know you weren’t asking me but in my personal circle I do. My friends who have remarried learned from past mistakes and found someone they are compatable with. My friends in first marriages are about 50-50. Some seem very happy and some seem just stuck 

Then I know the divorced guys who just enjoy living single. They seem like they are having a blast but having been there I question it.


----------



## wilson

Of the long-term marriages I know, only one is what I would consider "in love". Most are like friends who are on the same path and enjoy each other's company while on the journey. They love each other, but it's not that lovey-dovey kind of love. Then there are the ones who I don't know why they're together, as they do things like openly snipe at each other. I'm not sure they even like each other.

So in my experience, it seems extremely rare to have a life-long marriage that maintains that "in love" state the whole time. It's probably a matter of luck if that works out. I think the more realistic option is that you have a companion you love and feel comfortable with. I think that is achievable with a 2nd relationship. Happiness in long-term relationships probably has a lot to do with having realistic expectations about what a successful long-term relationship is really like.


----------



## Lila

Marduk said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> How does that even work?
> 
> 
> 
> Let's say your odds of finding Mr Right are currently 1% just behaving randomly. So that sucks.
> 
> But if you have a crystal clear image of Mr Right in your mind for whatever attributes matter to you - physical, mental, spiritual or whatever... you'll increase your odds of at least being able to differentiate Mr Right from all the Mr Wrongs that would be attractive but would also distract you from your goal.
> 
> So if you fix, say, the physical parameters that matter and don't matter, you can pick out potential candidates in whatever crowds you already operate in. Let's call that +10% for ****s and giggles.
> 
> Then you can hone in on actually talking to the dude, and rapidly assessing if he fits the mental characteristics you're looking for, maybe even before you date. Let's call that another +10%.
> 
> Then, you ask him out. You can find out the other 'must haves' and 'can't haves' very rapidly because you already know what you're looking for. You immediately abandon dating dudes that don't match and move on to dudes that do. +10%.
> 
> So your baseline odds with no real changes to your lifestyle have gone from 1% to 31%. Not great, but a helluva lot better than 1% just hoping for random chance. You can of course massively increase those odds by dating a lot of people for a very short period of time - 1-3 dates, say.
> 
> Now you're going to develop some characteristics for Mr Right. What's he into? What job is he likely to do?
> 
> If he's a corporate type... well, then you better start showing up at corporate type events and exploiting your friend network that gets invited to corporate type stuff. If he's a philanthropist, then you gotta do charity stuff. If he's a fitness junkie, then you gotta do fitness stuff. Etc. Be where he's already going to be, know the people that already know him, exploit your networks to your advantage. Target your friends with what exactly you're looking for.
> 
> When I was single and wanted to date, I made friends with lots of women... and then didn't sleep with them. Often they were in relationships and I made friends with their guy friends too. All those people would set me up all the time.
> 
> Even when I decided "**** it, I'm just going to be single, this is too exhausting," I had one of those friends (a guy) go to one of his friends parties (a girl I also knew)... and they both insisted I come to a party I didn't want to go to. And there was my future wife, at a party I didn't want to go to but was talked into going to, because my network of friends knew exactly who I was looking for. And there she was.
Click to expand...

There are way too many variables to make these numbers work. 

First, in order for the math to work I have to do the asking for the date. I'm looking for a more traditional/take charge guy. Those types see a woman asking as desperate or f buddy status only so that's not going to net the numbers you're claiming. 

Second, in order for your math to work, 100% of the men who have the attributes I'm looking for have to be interested in dating me. That's rarely true. 

Third, @Marduk I'm 45 not 25. Most of my friends are married and are in predominantly married social circles. Your suggestion to hit friends up for dates would work back when I was young and most friends were single but nowadays, that's just not the case. 

I appreciate your desire to help but unless you're in the over 40 and divorced crowd, there's no way you can relate.


----------



## dadstartingover

My take on the subject of finding "Real Love".

https://dadstartingover.com/real-love/


----------



## minimalME

I liked your article, and for the most part, I agree.

People do seem to think they're entitled to find the elusive perfect match.

Real love (agape) is hard. It can be boring at times, and it can be painful. 

Most don't have much tolerance anymore for anything less than entertaining.




dadstartingover said:


> My take on the subject of finding "Real Love".
> 
> https://dadstartingover.com/real-love/


----------



## Marduk

Lila said:


> There are way too many variables to make these numbers work.


The point is that they are additive. Do one, and you improve your odds. Do them all or come up with better ideas, and you massively increase your odds.

And if not then what's your plan?



> First, in order for the math to work I have to do the asking for the date. I'm looking for a more traditional/take charge guy. Those types see a woman asking as desperate or f buddy status only so that's not going to net the numbers you're claiming.


You're stronger, smarter, and better than that. It's nearly 2020. If you want something, then go get it.

I've never seen a woman asking me out as desperate. Go talk to some men about how thrilled they'd be if someone approached them for a change.



> Second, in order for your math to work, 100% of the men who have the attributes I'm looking for have to be interested in dating me. That's rarely true.


Not at all. You're rapidly winnowing out those you don't actually want to date quickly without wasting much time or effort. That way, when you are dating someone, the odds of you being compatible and him being someone you actually want are much higher.



> Third, @Marduk I'm 45 not 25. Most of my friends are married and are in predominantly married social circles. Your suggestion to hit friends up for dates would work back when I was young and most friends were single but nowadays, that's just not the case.


I'm a similar age as you. I know a large number of divorced/single men my age. I would be willing to help you figure out which of those guys might meet your criteria and break the ice. And I don't even know you in real life. 



> I appreciate your desire to help but unless you're in the over 40 and divorced crowd, there's no way you can relate.


I am over 40 and have been divorced. I'm sure there are challenges to being single now I don't understand. However having a plan and failing at it at least gives you better odds than not having a plan and hoping.

I don't know what the point of this thread is if you don't actually want to come up with a plan to get you what you want? Respectfully, do you just want to hear that the odds are so low that you might as well give up?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Marduk said:


> Respectfully, do you just want to hear that the odds are so low that you might as well give up?


I'm going to gently step in and answer because I've been reading up on Lila's story closely this past year since her D.

Lila is discouraged because she has gone on lots of dates and so far none of the guys quite have lined up with what she is after. She has also had quite a few let downs where someone almost lined up but then some deal breaker appeared. She has also had a sort of traumatic one, where the fellow committed suicide.

She also was very hurt and defeated by the way her exh treated her during and post break up, and she perceives that her exh just tra-la-la'd off into the sunset with a manic pixie while she is left in the dust with no good dating prospects. She feels he is going to get away with being a horrible husband to her but now be some kind of superman to his new pixie. (I don't see it this way, I think he is going to fall on his face, but it is yet to be seen).

Once she got into that funk for awhile, then (as happens) she would see evidence that supported that funk all around her. Like articles about how hard it is to find a good man in your 40's or if divorced, and having friends go through similar disappointments (confirmation bias makes you see things like this as more important than opposite types of experiences).

So at this point Lila is doing her best to NOT be discouraged or disappointed by doing what she feels is "trying to be realistic". 

I don't mean to speak for her, but I've just seen this process unfold in her. She is used to me trying to cheerlead and rah-rah her anyway! Because she gets me. But I do also see exactly how and why she feels this way, she detailed it as it was happening.

I personally think there's a man right around the corner for her who will blow ALL of this discouragement out of her mind because he's going to be so awesome and such a great fit with her. :laugh:


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm going to gently step in and answer because I've been reading up on Lila's story closely this past year since her D.
> 
> Lila is discouraged because she has gone on lots of dates and so far none of the guys quite have lined up with what she is after. She has also had quite a few let downs where someone almost lined up but then some deal breaker appeared. She has also had a sort of traumatic one, where the fellow committed suicide.
> 
> She also was very hurt and defeated by the way her exh treated her during and post break up, and she perceives that her exh just tra-la-la'd off into the sunset with a manic pixie while she is left in the dust with no good dating prospects. She feels he is going to get away with being a horrible husband to her but now be some kind of superman to his new pixie. (I don't see it this way, I think he is going to fall on his face, but it is yet to be seen).
> 
> Once she got into that funk for awhile, then (as happens) she would see evidence that supported that funk all around her. Like articles about how hard it is to find a good man in your 40's or if divorced, and having friends go through similar disappointments (confirmation bias makes you see things like this as more important than opposite types of experiences).
> 
> So at this point Lila is doing her best to NOT be discouraged or disappointed by doing what she feels is "trying to be realistic".
> 
> I don't mean to speak for her, but I've just seen this process unfold in her. She is used to me trying to cheerlead and rah-rah her anyway! Because she gets me. But I do also see exactly how and why she feels this way, she detailed it as it was happening.
> 
> I personally think there's a man right around the corner for her who will blow ALL of this discouragement out of her mind because he's going to be so awesome and such a great fit with her. :laugh:


Here's the deal.

She's smart. She's strong. She's hot. She's independent. And she knows what she wants!

I think if she filtered out dudes very early in the game, it would leave room (and heartache) for those that actually fit what she's looking for.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Marduk said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to gently step in and answer because I've been reading up on Lila's story closely this past year since her D.
> 
> Lila is discouraged because she has gone on lots of dates and so far none of the guys quite have lined up with what she is after. She has also had quite a few let downs where someone almost lined up but then some deal breaker appeared. She has also had a sort of traumatic one, where the fellow committed suicide.
> 
> She also was very hurt and defeated by the way her exh treated her during and post break up, and she perceives that her exh just tra-la-la'd off into the sunset with a manic pixie while she is left in the dust with no good dating prospects. She feels he is going to get away with being a horrible husband to her but now be some kind of superman to his new pixie. (I don't see it this way, I think he is going to fall on his face, but it is yet to be seen).
> 
> Once she got into that funk for awhile, then (as happens) she would see evidence that supported that funk all around her. Like articles about how hard it is to find a good man in your 40's or if divorced, and having friends go through similar disappointments (confirmation bias makes you see things like this as more important than opposite types of experiences).
> 
> So at this point Lila is doing her best to NOT be discouraged or disappointed by doing what she feels is "trying to be realistic".
> 
> I don't mean to speak for her, but I've just seen this process unfold in her. She is used to me trying to cheerlead and rah-rah her anyway! Because she gets me. But I do also see exactly how and why she feels this way, she detailed it as it was happening.
> 
> I personally think there's a man right around the corner for her who will blow ALL of this discouragement out of her mind because he's going to be so awesome and such a great fit with her. <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_smile_big.png" border="0" alt="" title="Laugh" ></a>
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the deal.
> 
> She's smart. She's strong. She's hot. She's independent. And she knows what she wants!
> 
> I think if she filtered out dudes very early in the game, it would leave room (and heartache) for those that actually fit what she's looking for.
Click to expand...

In the online dating world, we do that all the time because people list certain things about themselves which we know upfront are not going to pass our filters. So we filter them without even talking to them.

It’s when you have filtered like that already and go on an actual date that you find out there were other deal breakers. At that point you don’t have a second date, so that is still filtering out very early in the game.


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## lifeistooshort

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm going to gently step in and answer because I've been reading up on Lila's story closely this past year since her D.
> 
> Lila is discouraged because she has gone on lots of dates and so far none of the guys quite have lined up with what she is after. She has also had quite a few let downs where someone almost lined up but then some deal breaker appeared. She has also had a sort of traumatic one, where the fellow committed suicide.
> 
> She also was very hurt and defeated by the way her exh treated her during and post break up, and she perceives that her exh just tra-la-la'd off into the sunset with a manic pixie while she is left in the dust with no good dating prospects. She feels he is going to get away with being a horrible husband to her but now be some kind of superman to his new pixie. (I don't see it this way, I think he is going to fall on his face, but it is yet to be seen).
> 
> Once she got into that funk for awhile, then (as happens) she would see evidence that supported that funk all around her. Like articles about how hard it is to find a good man in your 40's or if divorced, and having friends go through similar disappointments (confirmation bias makes you see things like this as more important than opposite types of experiences).
> 
> So at this point Lila is doing her best to NOT be discouraged or disappointed by doing what she feels is "trying to be realistic".
> 
> I don't mean to speak for her, but I've just seen this process unfold in her. She is used to me trying to cheerlead and rah-rah her anyway! Because she gets me. But I do also see exactly how and why she feels this way, she detailed it as it was happening.
> 
> I personally think there's a man right around the corner for her who will blow ALL of this discouragement out of her mind because he's going to be so awesome and such a great fit with her. :laugh:




I agree based on what I have observed, and at a certain point it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

I too am over 40 and divorced. There are lots of over 40 men out there who want a partner....not someone half their age.

But actively looking and OLD can be brutal. I'd suggest activities Lila enjoys or meetup groups with the primary goal of socializing and seeing if something develops. If you go chasing too hard you're going to attract a lot of undesirables, which is fine if you're up to the task of weeding them out.

If not it might be best to step back from trying to date and focus on socializing.


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## Faithful Wife

I guess I'm kind of hung up on the "odds" thing still.

Since D rates are at about 50% and most of those first marriage D's were people who married relatively young, and of course of those who don't D we don't actually know if they are truly in love or are just praying for the end of time, doesn't this in itself say that finding your "perfect match" is statistically low odds for everyone? I know I kind of said that already. But what I am getting at is that I don't see younger or older, D'd or never married, kids or no kids, as having any better or worse odds than anyone else. 

So maybe we should adjust our expectations to feel that if you DO find your perfect match you are unusual, instead of feeling that there is something wrong with us if we DON'T find our perfect match.


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## lifeistooshort

Faithful Wife said:


> I guess I'm kind of hung up on the "odds" thing still.
> 
> Since D rates are at about 50% and most of those first marriage D's were people who married relatively young, and of course of those who don't D we don't actually know if they are truly in love or are just praying for the end of time, doesn't this in itself say that finding your "perfect match" is statistically low odds for everyone? I know I kind of said that already. But what I am getting at is that I don't see younger or older, D'd or never married, kids or no kids, as having any better or worse odds than anyone else.
> 
> So maybe we should adjust our expectations to feel that if you DO find your perfect match you are unusual, instead of feeling that there is something wrong with us if we DON'T find our perfect match.



Why would anyone need a "perfect" match to be happy?

Nothing in life is perfect.

A package that overall makes you happy would seem to me to be good enough.

Besides....if I thought I'd actually found a perfect match I'd be paranoid that I was missing something.


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## Faithful Wife

lifeistooshort said:


> Why would anyone need a "perfect" match to be happy?
> 
> Nothing in life is perfect.
> 
> A package that coverall makes you happy would seem to me to be good enough.


True, but I kind of think people who are truly happy together do consider each other a "perfect match", imperfections and all. Perfect "for them", perfect in the sense that the relationship gives them all they need, which may even include certain challenges, etc.


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## Thor

lifeistooshort said:


> I agree based on what I have observed, and at a certain point it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
> 
> I too am over 40 and divorced. There are lots of over 40 men out there who want a partner....not someone half their age.
> 
> But actively looking and OLD can be brutal. I'd suggest activities Lila enjoys or meetup groups with the primary goal of socializing and seeing if something develops. If you go chasing too hard you're going to attract a lot of undesirables, which is fine if you're up to the task of weeding them out.
> 
> If not it might be best to step back from trying to date and focus on socializing.


Excellent advice!

I thing we sometimes get too caught up in a quest to find the next great love of our lives. Really what we are looking for is a friend we enjoy being with, a partner, a lover, someone we learn things from, etc. There are a lot of people who can fill those roles. It is age-old advice but I think good advice to go do things you enjoy or have wanted to try out. This will place you amongst people with at least some common interest.

OLD is indeed brutal! I hear it from everyone except those who are just playing around. Instead, Meetup.com and other non-dating social sites can be a great way to meet a lot of new people without pressure. Around here there are several coffee and card games sorts of groups. One is classic movies and potluck dinners at someone's house. Another is backyard concerts. There are museum group visits. While I didn't meet a romantic partner doing any of those things I did meet a lot of interesting people and I made some good friends. I developed some new interests.

The important thing is not to become a hermit inside all the time. I think it is true that if one remains active and open to meeting new people that eventually you will meet someone who is a good match. They may or may not become a great romance, but that shouldn't be the goal of socializing.


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## lifeistooshort

Faithful Wife said:


> True, but I kind of think people who are truly happy together do consider each other a "perfect match", imperfections and all. Perfect "for them", perfect in the sense that the relationship gives them all they need, which may even include certain challenges, etc.


Point taken, but I do think we should be open to a relationship that doesn't necessarily give everything that one needs. Depending on what one needs it may not be reasonable, and getting most of our needs met might be ok.

Some things I'm only going to get from my close girlfriends.....like long, emotional conversations.

It would be a shame to pass up a great partner because a couple of things were lacking.

But of course each individual must decide what they can happily live with.


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## Faithful Wife

lifeistooshort said:


> Point taken, but I do think we should be open to a relationship that doesn't necessarily give everything that one needs. Depending on what one needs it may not be reasonable, and getting most of our needs met might be ok.
> 
> Some things I'm only going to get from my close girlfriends.....like long, emotional conversations.
> 
> It would be a shame to pass up a great partner because a couple of things were lacking.
> 
> But of course each individual must decide what they can happily live with.


Yes I should not have used the word "perfect", it doesn't have the meaning I was getting at.

For instance, my exh and I *were* actually perfect for each other, even though our relationship itself was far from perfect! But by using the word perfect it causes the reader to make their own assessment of what perfect means. The reason I would use the word perfect for each other was due to our love for each other (which was actually perfect) and the fact that our failings in the relationship were actually exactly what we each needed in order to do some personal growth. So we are divorced, yet we were still in fact perfect for each other. But obviously the word is too restrictive to be used in general.

Looking back at @Lila's OP, she actually used the term "odds are low of _finding happiness again_".


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## Lila

Gosh, reading this thread makes me think that there really is something wrong with me. Everybody seems to have met or know people who have met someone except me.


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## Faithful Wife

Lila said:


> Gosh, reading this thread makes me think that there really is something wrong with me. Everybody seems to have met or know people who have met someone except me.


Ugh Lila, nooooooo!!! There is NOT something wrong with you!!!

You have high standards you are not willing to budge on and you should NOT budge on them!!!

But having high standards will mean you have a smaller pool of candidates.

Look - I can get a _date_, easy. But I can't snap my fingers and create a *match* for myself. Because, like you, I have high standards or in my case people might actually just call me picky and fussy and unrealistic. 

But I would still rather be alone, even forever!, rather than lower my standards or settle in any way. I want to feel strong attraction and ultimate admiration and fondness for someone. If I lowered my standards, that person would be cheated out of having someone better than me who might love them the way they are. No one wants to be settled for.

You will find a match, Lila. It just takes time. In fact I have far more optimism that you will actually find a match than that I will! You are a way better type of woman than I am, you have so much more to offer, so much less baggage, and you are far healthier than me (physically but probably mentally, too!). My bets are on you finding your new great partner within the next 6 months.

And also I'm going to be a little bummed when you do find him because I know your new man is not going to let you come to Portland and hang out with me. >


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## Thor

Lila said:


> Gosh, reading this thread makes me think that there really is something wrong with me. Everybody seems to have met or know people who have met someone except me.


I really believe that it is true you have to first get comfortable living alone. Not being alone, but having your own place and space. I didn't date until a year post divorce, and even then it was awkward. I'm now 3 yrs out and much more comfortable in general. I am also much better at screening potential matches. But also much better at attracting good matches.

The women I have dated and the acquaintances I talk to all say that it is not easy to find a match. I think a lot of people settle, which means many of the couples you see may not really be as in love as you imagine.

If you stop trying hard to find a new romance but focus on just being you then you will be pretty happy. Build your life into what you want, and you will find plenty of people you enjoy spending time with. You'll be content in your own place, and you'll do the things you get satisfaction out of. The worst case is you are basically happy and content but don't have a romantic partner, and that isn't too bad of an outcome. But happy people tend to attract others, so this is also a recipe to find a good match. Sort of like putting on your own oxygen mask before helping others, you need to rebuild your own life/identity before you can build a good partnership.


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## Cooper

Lila said:


> Gosh, reading this thread makes me think that there really is something wrong with me. Everybody seems to have met or know people who have met someone except me.


Well.....there's me too! 

I am 59 and have been divorced for eleven years after a twenty year marriage. I never thought I would remain single but here I am. 

I think becoming involved in a relationship later in life is very different than when young. When young much of a relationship is based on faith, as you get older you have a persons history to look back at. A 25 year old with a shaky work history? No big deal, still finding their way. No money saved? Still young, no big whoop. Parties a bit too much? They'll grow out of it. But those same traits for a fifty year old? Huge red flags that show the type of person they are and in all likelyhood will remain. 

Maybe I'm cynical but I no longer trust things will simply work out, I need to see historical proof that the way you lead your life will easily mesh with mine. I like my life and am probably a bit obsessive at protecting it, that philosophy makes me reluctant when it comes to another long term relationship.


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## Hiner112

Lila said:


> Gosh, reading this thread makes me think that there really is something wrong with me. Everybody seems to have met or know people who have met someone except me.


One of my high school friends was married for about 5 years in his mid 20s and has been more or less single ever since (we're in our early 40s). I've been separated since last September and the thought of approaching a woman still gives me the same feeling you get when you haven't studied for a test. You're not alone. It isn't necessarily a fun club but you aren't alone in it.


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