# This is why I say a persons sexual history matters.



## FalconKing

It amazes me how this doesn't really seem to bother people. Somebody's past says a lot about a person. I don't want to be a with a woman who places a low value on sexual intimacy or someone any man can have if they "get her drunk enough." I feel these things help shape people. Usually people don't care for someone to divulge their past when they don't really want to divulge their own. Or they don't want to know if the number is high because they don't want to have to think about those things. Well, I like to think. And I like to share. I've shared this before but this is where i'm coming from:

I dated a woman who was a few years older than me. She was divorced. We met at a book store and got into a conversation about philosophies and relationships. It took off from there. We started spending a lot of time together and then ended up being involved romantically. We discussed each other's past in the course of the relationship. She told me that she had never been unfaithful in her marriage. But later on she admitted that she had. One of her kids she is still not sure who the father is. She has also been with around 40 men. She was promiscuous in college and she had slept with a lot of married or taken men after her divorce. I felt like those things were important but it was also important about what she and I could have. Unfortunately over time I realized that these experiences help shape how she acted in relationships.

She was never used to having healthy relationship with someone who was always available. She would create problems to have a reason to get away from the relationship. I wasn't around enough or I was around too much. I think I did a good job of being rational and showing my points of views on things. I thought I was helping the relationship. But I realized later what she was trying to do. She had a lot of insecurities. She wanted to end the relationship but it had to be my fault so then she could say i'm just not what she needs and she won't feel guilty about the sabotage. So me being rational meant she would just have to try harder. While I would share intimate things about me, she would criticize me for them. Something I never did to her. She told me I abused drugs because I told her I took a prescription mental focus pill to cram for a biology test in college. I never said anything when she mentioned to me how she got high most of her marriage, and I think she even did cocaine. We once got into an argument in my car because she told me she felt the music I listened to was disrespectful to women. I mentioned to her how her she liked a rap artist who actually went to jail for sexually assaulting a woman, so I didn't really know what her problem was. She ended up screaming and I turned the car around and took her a$$ home. Because of that she said I was controlling. We broke up 4 times in the course of the relationship. Every time I talked with her I was calm and rational so I think she felt that wasn't enough for her to really end it. Our last break up was when we had a phone conversation about her day and she said she would call me back in a few minutes. Well I don't hear from her for 3 hours. I call her back and she answers the phone as if nothing is happening. I asked her why she couldn't text me or call me back. That was all she needed. She went on a tangent telling me i'm not her husband and my behavior was controlling. And how the way I act is a product of how my dad raised me. I never mentioned one thing negatively about her behavior when she told me how her dad was abusive and even killed himself some years ago. She wanted to break up again. I said fine. We ended talking again about a month later. I told her I could not continue communicating with her unless she apologized for how she disrespected me or at least acknowledge she had at least some fault to own up to that ended our relationship. She told me she was blocking my number

Had I not known about the issues this woman had I would not have known about why she was so passive aggressive, why she had me on a yo yo or why she just sometimes needed to initiate some type of conflict. I don't think it's ever a good idea to get involve with anyone without knowing the types of romantic or sexual decisions they made regard intimacy(at least for me). Some of you may say I just had a tough woman to deal with. But how do you know unless you ask those questions. People's behavior is a product of many things. Past decisions is one of them. I want someone that I can ask any question to and not have it be off limits. I am not a perfect but I feel the woman I am with should know what she is getting. Good and bad. For people who want to know the number or types of romantic experiences, I think this is where a lot of us are coming from. I am not a virgin and If I dated a woman that wanted a virgin I couldn't be mad at her for wanting that and wanting to end our relationship. If she sees me as a potential husband she has every right to know such things.


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## RandomDude

Women have issues, regardless of how many times they got laid.
It's your choice in the end, but bear in mind there are women of quality out there who are actually more mature, intelligent, and wiser than the younger or more 'innocent' crowd, due to their experiences with men not despite them.

The ironic thing is that I was the one in the relationship always trying to sabotage everything because yes -> I was not used to vulnerability and long term commitments. My wife however, who ironically has a more extensive past, was the patient one and although we had problems, she was always passionate and never gave up. She was the one ready for marriage, I was the one who wasn't.

That's what it comes down to -> you can't always blame a woman's past for everything she does in the present.


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## FalconKing

Point well taken. But I would also like to add that I don't need a woman to be innocent. But I would prefer to be with someone who has had relationships that were working toward something serious. And if they are not, then they would much rather be alone with the time frame of being single being longer than a few months.


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## sisters359

No one has any right to decide what is correct for someone else, so do what you feel is right for you. I'm assuming you behave in the same way of course. Hypocrisy is a lot worse than enjoying casual sex, IMHO.


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## Caribbean Man

I think what the OP [ Falcon king ] is saying is that this woman originally hid her past. She outright LIED to him because she knew her emotional state.
If the OP knew that she was a serial cheater, he would not have invested much time in the relationship with her.
If they were both just looking for a " good time", then he would not have been disappointed in the end.
The main reason women hide their past IMO, is not so much of the fear of being judged wrongfully, but because they are ashamed of it.

Ok so lets take another look at this.

Op meets this woman in a book store,and they instantly click and begin to talk.
They talk about stuff like kife , philosophy etc.
There is chemistry.
Lady then decides to tell OP some of her life story and OP tells her his.
Lady tells OP that she wants to be honest with him and tells him the TRUTH.
OP decides he really likes this woman and sees a future with her based on what she has told him, and her HONESTY.
Op knows what to look out for and so they start a relationship on the firm , sound foundation of TRUST and TRUTH.

This is what people look for in a relationship.


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## kag123

Falcon -

I agree with you and I have always felt the same way. I realize not everyone agrees and not everyone thinks a persons past should dictate their future.

I look for a persons patterns. A number of sexual partners is not what bothers me, but I would look for the pattern to their behavior. Do they have a history of cheating? Do they have a history of struggling with commitment? Do they act in a lewd manner on purpose (trying to get attention? Low self esteem?) This stuff would natter to me when it comes to picking someone long term.

Everyone is capable of changing and growing, but you can quickly tell where a person is in their life based on their past and present behavior. I don't think there's anything wrong with using that as a barometer of whether someone is a good fit for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kl84

To an extent, it does have an impact. My first relationship was when I was 18. I lost my virginity to him right before i turned 19. I thought he was "the one" (omg I was an IDIOT) but later found out that I was one of many females he was seeing. There was absolutely nothing special between us. It was all a lie. I ended up pregnant before finding out. I was SO devastated by that because I was ALWAYS the one turning guys down left and right and the FIRST guy I slept with lied to me about pretty much everything he ever told me, got me pregnant, and left....So when I met my husband we had serious issues in the beginning. I was slightly..... a lunatic. I don't even know how he stuck with me. I snooped through his stuff constantly, put a key logger on his computer, manipulated and twisted his words to make a mountain out of a molehill, you name it. I even slapped him once because he put cologne on to go to a carwash. INSANE, I know. But that was totally influenced by my past. Now, most guys would RUN RUN RUN from that behavior (rightfully so, I might add).... but my husband took my past into consideration and hoped and prayed it would change.....and it totally did. I am absolutely nothing like I was when we first hooked up as far as jealousy and insecurity goes.

He could have said I wasn't a good fit for him.... but so glad he took the chance because we are perfect for each other.....

Likewise, he had always been in a serious relationship. Usually I would look at guys like this as people who just constantly need to need someone and need to be needed by someone. I watched my brother run through gf after gf, and all of them were "the one". I always thought that would make me feel like I was "just another one". Glad I didn't feed into those assumptions.....


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## Entropy3000

FalconKing said:


> Point well taken. But I would also like to add that I don't need a woman to be innocent. But I would prefer to be with someone who has had relationships that were working toward something serious. And if they are not, then they would much rather be alone with the time frame of being single being longer than a few months.


A man ( or woman ) does not have to compromise. They need not settle. If they know what they value then that is what they should go for.

Let others settle for less. There are plenty of awesome people out there. If you are looking for a lifetime partner you need only one. Being compatible is important.


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## SimplyAmorous

kl84 said:


> To an extent, it does have an impact. My first relationship was when I was 18. I lost my virginity to him right before i turned 19. I thought he was "the one" (omg I was an IDIOT) but later found out that I was one of many females he was seeing. There was absolutely nothing special between us. It was all a lie. I ended up pregnant before finding out. I was SO devastated by that because I was ALWAYS the one turning guys down left and right and the FIRST guy I slept with lied to me about pretty much everything he ever told me, got me pregnant, and left....So when I met my husband we had serious issues in the beginning. I was slightly..... a lunatic. I don't even know how he stuck with me. I snooped through his stuff constantly, put a key logger on his computer, manipulated and twisted his words to make a mountain out of a molehill, you name it. I even slapped him once because he put cologne on to go to a carwash. INSANE, I know. But that was totally influenced by my past. Now, most guys would RUN RUN RUN from that behavior (rightfully so, I might add).... but my husband took my past into consideration and hoped and prayed it would change.....and it totally did. I am absolutely nothing like I was when we first hooked up as far as jealousy and insecurity goes.
> 
> He could have said I wasn't a good fit for him.... but so glad he took the chance because we are perfect for each other.....


Love your story, your husband saw the whole picture... he knew what he was up against and he saw faith & promise in you., bound & determined to NOT give up on you..... your heart was in the right place with that BF -he knew that too, how utterly devestated you were .....

Your love story makes me think of this song ... she had a really tough time, deep heartbreak ... but he was there, not going anywhere, wanted to be her lover, be her best friend... catch her every fall. 








I wanna be there- blessed union of souls - YouTube


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## SimplyAmorous

> *FalconKing said *: But how do you know unless you ask those questions. People's behavior is a product of many things. Past decisions is one of them. I want someone that I can ask any question to and not have it be off limits.


This IS me 100% - deal breaker #1. Anyone who refuses to vulnerably talk about their past would never work with me. 

I really am not someone who expects perfection at all , life is full of Grays.... people are human , we screw up, make bad decisions in a moment, some are more immature than others in their youth.... then they grow up, mature and have MORE conviction than anyone around them against NOT doing what they did !! This is absolutely HUGE!! 

So my aim would be to uncover where their







is NOW, where it has traveled.... what they have gleaned along the way in light of their various experiences....or smooth sailing. Most importantly I would want their heartfelt honesty. 

The same values ....absolutely....but that doesn't mean we have to come from the same side of the fence. I believe genuine LOVE can conquer near anything ... including one's past.


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## Thundarr

When it gets more serious and before marriage then both should know each other's past. It seems risky to do it any other way. History of things like drug abuse, addictions, domestic violence, and number of partners are all part of who we are.


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## Goldmember357

It does mater it always does!!

just like a persons entire past and history maters!!


dont believe me? 

i might see you coming in for divorce than. Trust me it maters


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## Goldmember357

people are delusional. IDK i am done trying to educate those who wish to dwell in their own ignorance let them destroy themselves i suppose most people will anyways.


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## CandieGirl

I find this whole topic rather unfair; just because I've had more than a handful of lovers does not mean that I have little, low, or no value for sexual intimacy or that I don't know how to 'make love'. Maybe it's because the men I ended up with, mostly ended up being selfish or abusive pricks...or having any other combination of negative qualities that I consider myself too good to put up with. Save my virtue and stay with the guy who beat the crap out of me, or leave, start over, and try again with someone else? Pfff...


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## CandieGirl

And we already went through a similar thread last week, that got all the virtuous people out there, up in arms. Man.


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## Caribbean Man

SimplyAmorous said:


> *This IS me 100% - deal breaker #1. Anyone who refuses to vulnerably talk about their past would never work with me. *
> 
> I really am not someone who expects perfection at all , life is full of Grays.... people are human , we screw up, make bad decisions in a moment, some are more immature than others in their youth.... *then they grow up, mature and have MORE conviction than anyone around them against NOT doing what they did !! This is absolutely HUGE!! *


:iagree:

That is the crux of the matter.
People want you to be vulnerable with them and their issues, they expect you to be " mature enough " to accept them for who they are , BUT THEY REFUSE TO TELL YOU WHO THEY REALLY ARE!
A person's character is the sum total of their life's experiences, their choices , and their ability to learn from it.


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## Thundarr

CandieGirl said:


> I find this whole topic rather unfair; just because I've had more than a handful of lovers does not mean that I have little, low, or no value for sexual intimacy or that I don't know how to 'make love'. Maybe it's because the men I ended up with, mostly ended up being selfish or abusive pricks...or having any other combination of negative qualities that I consider myself too good to put up with. Save my virtue and stay with the guy who beat the crap out of me, or leave, start over, and try again with someone else? Pfff...


You judge your own past more harshly than I would. I think withholding your history (major things anyway) keeps you from feeling loved for who you are. Imagine all the good, bad, and ugly out there in the open then you are loved for who you are baggage and all. That seems like a good thing.

And really it's just exposing what you think your partner should know. I think almost everything. Number of relationships, ONS, kinky stuff, etc. My wife and I know the numbers and we know stuff that each other did not do. I wouldn't want the details though.

The thing is. If you are asked about it, do you outright lie or tell the truth. Not bringing up the subject is one thing. Lying directly is just bad though.


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## CandieGirl

Thundarr said:


> You judge your own past more harshly than I would. I think withholding your history (major things anyway) keeps you from feeling loved for who you are. Imagine all the good, bad, and ugly out there in the open then you are loved for who you are baggage and all. That seems like a good thing.
> 
> And really it's just exposing what you think your partner should know. I think almost everything. Number of relationships, ONS, kinky stuff, etc. My wife and I know the numbers and we know stuff that each other did not do. I wouldn't want the details though.
> 
> The thing is. If you are asked about it, do you outright lie or tell the truth. Not bringing up the subject is one thing. Lying directly is just bad though.


I don't judge myself or my past at all; like I said, I walked away from many a loser who wasn't good enough for me. Lie about that or withhold it? Are you kidding me? I'm proud of myself for walking away from those sh!tty situations.

I'm more offended by the OP's insinuation that you can tell a lot about someone from their past, as if it's something to be ashamed of. Not all of us are ashamed of our pasts.


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## Thundarr

CandieGirl said:


> I don't judge myself or my past at all; like I said, I walked away from many a loser who wasn't good enough for me. Lie about that or withhold it? Are you kidding me? I'm proud of myself for walking away from those sh!tty situations.
> 
> I'm more offended by the OP's insinuation that you can tell a lot about someone from their past, as if it's something to be ashamed of. Not all of us are ashamed of our pasts.


Yep I misunderstood you. I see where the statement "you know where someone's going by where they've been" is offensive to people who have changed for the better. I'm guessing when someone sounds righteous and judgemental is when it annoys you more. 

I do think the past turns out to be a good predictor in many cases though. There is a reason for credit reports, police records, etc. I personally would not have a problem with the number of partners if spread over time but I would be very uncomfortable if someone was married four times and was a serial cheater.

So yea I get your point but the OP's seems valid too.


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## CandieGirl

I suppose, I'm just still raw from that thread last week, about 'moral equivalence'...that one got me really pissed off, especially when I was told by another member that since I'd been around the block a few times, I knew a lot about sex, but nothing about 'making love'. I can't stand self-righteous, condescending, holier than thou types.

To each his own. You want to marry a virgin, go right ahead. You want to sleep with hundreds of different partners, go right ahead. Most of us, however, especially in THIS day and age, tend to fall somewhere in the middle, which is where I am. Not virginal but not a 10 cent hooker, either.


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## A Bit Much

CandieGirl said:


> I suppose, I'm just still raw from that thread last week, about 'moral equivalence'...that one got me really pissed off, especially when I was told by another member that since I'd been around the block a few times, I knew a lot about sex, but nothing about 'making love'. I can't stand self-righteous, condescending, holier than thou types.
> 
> *To each his own. You want to marry a virgin, go right ahead. You want to sleep with hundreds of different partners, go right ahead. Most of us, however, especially in THIS day and age, tend to fall somewhere in the middle, which is where I am. Not virginal but not a 10 cent hooker, either.*


I'm in that boat with you and 100% agree.


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## anonim

CandieGirl said:


> And we already went through a similar thread last week, that got all the virtuous people out there, up in arms. Man.


virtuous my foot LOL. What is the point of being able to say 'my body is pristine, chaste, undefiled' when your mind is not pristine, chaste or undefiled because you judge other people?


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## southern wife

A Bit Much said:


> I'm in that boat with you and 100% agree.


We're all in the same boat!  :toast:


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## that_girl

Well, that woman was a liar.

I don't lie about sexuality. My past is my past and there aren't a lot of lovers but even if there was, who are you to say I just "throw away intimacy" or whatever it was you said?


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## ScarletBegonias

I don't judge anyone who chooses to turn down sex and deny themselves the pleasure so they shouldn't judge me for choosing to participate in one of the sweetest pleasures of life. 

Lying about it though?That's cowardly and flat out wrong.

I'm clean,always have been,never cheated on anyone either and if someone judges me for the amount of sexual experience i have then they aren't worth dating in the first place.


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## Lon

CandieGirl said:


> I don't judge myself or my past at all; like I said, *I walked away from many a loser who wasn't good enough for me*. Lie about that or withhold it? Are you kidding me? I'm proud of myself for walking away from those sh!tty situations.
> 
> I'm more offended by the OP's insinuation that you can tell a lot about someone from their past, as if it's something to be ashamed of. Not all of us are ashamed of our pasts.


Hey CG, not judging you at all, but I have a genuine question about this. I think it is great you could walk away from bad situations, but how come you got involved with so many losers in the first place? Myself I have the opposite problem, I have never really walked away from much of anything, but have always been way too selective. I guess I'm wondering who has a better shot of actually learning anything about ourselves, lol, to have that "conviciton" that SA mentioned.

I'm not ashamed of my past either (why should I, I've always been nothing but kind and polite and risk averse), but now I feel so inexperienced and so far behind the curve I almost feel immature, I wish I had some fun stories of losers I had to walk, or run, from... but I also don't want to self-fulfill that prophecy... I still want a good one (and really don't fathom how people can have had so many partners in life be it dating sex or relationships) to me it always seemed like you wait for the right one, go slow and since you are both the right ones conforming and adapting to each other should be easy and then there'd be nothing you couldn't go through in life together. But the risk is that you bond and commit to the wrong one and it makes it very difficult to get out when I should.


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## Thundarr

ScarletBegonias said:


> I don't judge anyone who chooses to turn down sex and deny themselves the pleasure so they shouldn't judge me for choosing to participate in one of the sweetest pleasures of life.
> 
> Lying about it though?That's cowardly and flat out wrong.
> 
> I'm clean,always have been,never cheated on anyone either and if someone judges me for the amount of sexual experience i have then they aren't worth dating in the first place.


If we view someone's past to help us understand if they will be a loyal and trusting mate then the number is less important than other things. You mentioned that lying is wrong and that you've never cheated. Those are important.


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## lalsr1988

Personally I would not want a woman who has been around the block.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl

I wouldn't want a man who had ONSs from bars either. So I didn't marry one. lol It's simple.


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## CandieGirl

Lon said:


> Hey CG, not judging you at all, but I have a genuine question about this. I think it is great you could walk away from bad situations, but how come you got involved with so many losers in the first place? Myself I have the opposite problem, I have never really walked away from much of anything, but have always been way too selective. I guess I'm wondering who has a better shot of actually learning anything about ourselves, lol, to have that "conviciton" that SA mentioned.
> 
> I'm not ashamed of my past either (why should I, I've always been nothing but kind and polite and risk averse), but now I feel so inexperienced and so far behind the curve I almost feel immature, I wish I had some fun stories of losers I had to walk, or run, from... but I also don't want to self-fulfill that prophecy... I still want a good one (and really don't fathom how people can have had so many partners in life be it dating sex or relationships) to me it always seemed like you wait for the right one, go slow and since you are both the right ones conforming and adapting to each other should be easy and then there'd be nothing you couldn't go through in life together. But the risk is that you bond and commit to the wrong one and it makes it very difficult to get out when I should.


I have great difficulty gleaning anything useful from those who've only had one partner in life, so I'll stay away from that particular conviction.

Think about it; I began 'dating' at the age of 15, had a BF who cheated and we broke up after 2 years. I then had another BF for 2 years, and while things began fine, I grew bored. I dumped him. Had an on and off for 5 years with the father of my two eldest. He serially cheated. I kicked him out. By then, I was 24. I had an affair with a married man for nearly 2 years, obviously that wasn't going anywhere, so I pulled my head out of my ass and ended it. I met and moved in with a man I stayed with him for several years, from about the age of 26, to about 33; early on, he was cold and mean, but I figured, stupidly, that he'd warm up. I was wrong. He froze me out, took away all my confidence and self esteem until I finally turned to someone else. It was wrong of me to cheat, but at least I found the strength to get off my ass and dump the guy I was living with. 

Around that time, I realized that I had no idea what to look for in a life partner, as I'd failed miserably at it for almost 20 years...but I sure knew what I DIDN'T want! I spent the next 7 years playing the field and discovering even more traits in men that I found unacceptable. I had a few more boyfriends, but one by one, they all dropped off because they proved to be undeserving of my love and attention. Yes, I really do think that highly of myself, because somebody had to!

I had just turned 40 when my latest boyfriend of about 6 weeks, presented me with a list of all the things he thought were wrong with me. I dumped him on the spot, right here in the office, and denounced men outright. And that's when my future husband came along. I married him last September, at the age of 41.

I've never been great at going slow and waiting; perhaps if I had been, things might have turned out differently. Who knows? I guess I'm more of a test drive kind of gal; either way, we all strive to be in the same place, don't we? Married to the man (or woman) of our dreams!


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## southern wife

CandieGirl said:


> I have great difficulty gleaning anything useful from those who've only had one partner in life, so I'll stay away from that particular conviction.
> 
> Think about it; I began 'dating' at the age of 15, had a BF who cheated and we broke up after 2 years. I then had another BF for 2 years, and while things began fine, I grew bored. I dumped him. Had an on and off for 5 years with the father of my two eldest. He serially cheated. I kicked him out. By then, I was 24. I had an affair with a married man for nearly 2 years, obviously that wasn't going anywhere, so I pulled my head out of my ass and ended it. I met and moved in with a man I stayed with him for several years, from about the age of 26, to about 33; early on, he was cold and mean, but I figured, stupidly, that he'd warm up. I was wrong. He froze me out, took away all my confidence and self esteem until I finally turned to someone else. It was wrong of me to cheat, but at least I found the strength to get off my ass and dump the guy I was living with.
> 
> Around that time, I realized that I had no idea what to look for in a life partner, as I'd failed miserably at it for almost 20 years...but I sure knew what I DIDN'T want! I spent the next 7 years playing the field and discovering even more traits in men that I found unacceptable. I had a few more boyfriends, but one by one, they all dropped off because they proved to be undeserving of my love and attention. Yes, I really do think that highly of myself, because somebody had to!
> 
> I had just turned 40 when my latest boyfriend of about 6 weeks, presented me with a list of all the things he thought were wrong with me. I dumped him on the spot, right here in the office, and denounced men outright. And that's when my future husband came along. I married him last September, at the age of 41.
> 
> I've never been great at going slow and waiting; perhaps if I had been, things might have turned out differently. Who knows? I guess I'm more of a test drive kind of gal; either way, we all strive to be in the same place, don't we? Married to the man (or woman) of our dreams!


Candiegirl, your story sounds alot like mine.  Nothing at all to be ashamed of. Strong women leave bad relationships in search of something better! To you, my strong friend: :toast:


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## CandieGirl

Thanks, SW! It's nice to be understood...and I might add that sometimes, someone's LACK of sexual history matters as well.


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## Caribbean Man

Sometimes an honest discussions is so difficult.
This is simple.

Would ANY woman on this forum want to get married to a KNOWN SEX OFFENDER?
Quite obviously the answer is a resounding NO.
Even if he says that he has changed his ways blah , blah , blah.

Once his name is on that sex offenders registry, women avoid him like the PLAGUE.
Why?
Because they want to protect themselves and their offspring. Anyone who rapes a child or a woman is likely to be wired a certain way.....
His past behaviour is a reflection of the type of person he was, and may very well , still be.

It is a fact of life, some MEN RAPE WOMEN.

Question ladies , who are you to judge such a man's past?
Of course that is an absurd question!
You have EVERY RIGHT to judge ANY man on his past if you feel that it will impact on your emotional / physical safety and long term goals.

It is a fact of life, SOME WOMEN CAN'T HANDLE MARRIAGE OR COMMITMENT.

Well basically,
That is the argument of the OP.


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## southern wife

CandieGirl said:


> Thanks, SW! It's nice to be understood...and I might add that sometimes, someone's LACK of sexual history matters as well.


:iagree: I'd rather have a man that knows the female body and how it works rather than someone that does not!


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## Thundarr

CandieGirl said:


> I have great difficulty gleaning anything useful from those who've only had one partner in life, so I'll stay away from that particular conviction.
> 
> Think about it; I began 'dating' at the age of 15, had a BF who cheated and we broke up after 2 years. I then had another BF for 2 years, and while things began fine, I grew bored. I dumped him. Had an on and off for 5 years with the father of my two eldest. He serially cheated. I kicked him out. By then, I was 24. I had an affair with a married man for nearly 2 years, obviously that wasn't going anywhere, so I pulled my head out of my ass and ended it. I met and moved in with a man I stayed with him for several years, from about the age of 26, to about 33; early on, he was cold and mean, but I figured, stupidly, that he'd warm up. I was wrong. He froze me out, took away all my confidence and self esteem until I finally turned to someone else. It was wrong of me to cheat, but at least I found the strength to get off my ass and dump the guy I was living with.
> 
> Around that time, I realized that I had no idea what to look for in a life partner, as I'd failed miserably at it for almost 20 years...but I sure knew what I DIDN'T want! I spent the next 7 years playing the field and discovering even more traits in men that I found unacceptable. I had a few more boyfriends, but one by one, they all dropped off because they proved to be undeserving of my love and attention. Yes, I really do think that highly of myself, because somebody had to!
> 
> I had just turned 40 when my latest boyfriend of about 6 weeks, presented me with a list of all the things he thought were wrong with me. I dumped him on the spot, right here in the office, and denounced men outright. And that's when my future husband came along. I married him last September, at the age of 41.
> 
> I've never been great at going slow and waiting; perhaps if I had been, things might have turned out differently. Who knows? I guess I'm more of a test drive kind of gal; either way, we all strive to be in the same place, don't we? Married to the man (or woman) of our dreams!


CG. Your story is why I think it's important actually. That's the information that I think is important to get out there before marriage. 

Here is why I think so.
Two things that are scary are that you had an affair with a married man and that you cheated in one relationship. I would be asking about that and looking for signs that you learned a lesson to not have an affair with a married man ever and that you would never do that again. I would also be looking for signs that you learned a lesson and would not ever have an affair again. Realistically those both happened for reasons. I would ask if I did what your ex did and things got really bad, what would be different this time around. Could you cheat. I would be looking for confirmation that cheating is NEVER okay and if I didn't get that then it wouldn't be worth spending more time on us because I would be unable to commit further.

It sounds judgemental but that's not it. It's more of me avoiding risk. Really it's just common sense to evaluate risk. That's why banks don't loan money to people with bad credit.


----------



## tacoma

Excellent point.

Well excellent point if you fail to consider that people are not static entities and change constantly.
If you take that fact into consideration then the point kinda fades away and becomes pretty much moot.

My number would shock a lot of people here and yet infidelity isn't a problem of mine while the forum is riddled with non promiscuous people Cheating like mad
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma

In fact i see many more problems in this forum that stem from a lack of experience sexually than due to a history of promiscuity
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

southern wife said:


> :iagree: I'd rather have a man that knows the female body and how it works rather than someone that does not!


So you don't want a virgin or someone with no experience. That's a good reason to know their sexual history actually. On the other end of things you probably don't want a serial cheater which is also a good reason.


----------



## Thundarr

tacoma said:


> Excellent point.
> 
> Well excellent point if you fail to consider that people are not static entities and change constantly.
> If you take that fact into consideration then the point kinda fades away and becomes pretty much moot.
> 
> My number would shock a lot of people here and yet infidelity isn't a problem of mine while the forum is riddled with non promiscuous people Cheating like mad
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think explanation of the past and how you learned from it or what was going on then that's not going on now are all part of the other person understanding who you are. I said before that the number is not such a big deal to me.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> It sounds judgemental but that's not it. It's more of me avoiding risk. *Really it's just common sense to evaluate risk. That's why banks don't loan money to people with bad credit.*


Its simple as that.
And I can relate the the bank analogy.
I had to learn that the hard way. When I wanted to start my business, the refused to lend me the money because of my past , bad credit.
My idea was brilliant,I had the connections , everything was in place. But my past prevented the bank from lending me. I was judged a " bad risk."
I felt bad , but I had to take responsibility and FIX MY SITUATION.
I was able to raise the money privately, and got my business running.
Today when I need money , I can call the credit manager and she will fix everything for me. No hassle.
I paid my dues and earned the respect of the bank.

From a man's point of view, asking about a woman's past is all about risk assessment. Nothing is stopping a woman from doing the exact , same thing.
In fact, if she were to do so , she may well avoid some of the serious emotional damage that selfish men inflict on unsuspecting women.


----------



## southern wife

Thundarr said:


> So you don't want a virgin or someone with no experience. That's a good reason to know their sexual history actually.


*At my age, I don't want/need a virgin boy/man. I want a man that knows what he's doing in the bedroom, whether he's taking the lead....or being led by me!* 




Thundarr said:


> On the other end of things you probably don't want a serial cheater which is also a good reason.


*No, I don't want a serial cheater and my husband is just the opposite....totally committed to me. *


----------



## Dad&Hubby

These types of conversations are always entertaining. So many differing opinions. Noone is "court of law" right or wrong. Your opinion is right or wrong for yourself.

For me, I could care less about my wife's history except for a couple things. 
1. I didn't want to see any cheating. Now she did have a sexual relationship with someone who was in a committed relationship, but SHE wasn't, that straddled the line but there was more to the situation which she explained to me (which I won't get into here) that I accepted it without judgement. 
2. I wanted a woman who had a strong sexual drive but still put a "premium" on how easily she'd have sex. I know my values about sex and I wanted a woman with similar values. Just because I knew it'd be easier on the relationship. I think the values of the partners needs to be similar, doesn't matter what they are, just find someone with similar values. I knew I couldn't be with someone who had TONS of ONS's. Not that it's wrong to do it, I just don't agree with it, and I wouldn't want to be in the situation of having to "accept" something in my partner that I didn't agree with. It's no different than anything other belief/value you have. You should find a mate who has similar ones. (importance of family, infidelity, children's education)


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## FalconKing

CandieGirl said:


> I'm more offended by the OP's insinuation that you can tell a lot about someone from their past, as if it's something to be ashamed of. Not all of us are ashamed of our pasts.


Ma'am with all due respect, if you are offended by that then that is your problem. I meant to say that people's past says a lot of about them. Be it good or bad is up to them, but I also feel someone I am trying to give the rest of my life to deserves to know. I was involved with a woman who came from a past much different from mine and it had a negative effect on our relationship. I told my story and my experiences and what I discerned from it. If you are not ashamed of your past then what is your problem with what I said? I wasn't talk about you, anyway.


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## that_girl

My past tells people that I am a healthy female, who had some fun for a few years, took care of my child, got a college degree by age 21, been stable in a career for 12 years. 

Yep. Good past


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## that_girl

That Guy Kyle said:


> I don't mean to take a strict side here since everyone is different, but I wish I'd paid more attention to my wife's past than I did. She told me a lot about herself early on, and I went the pc route and told myself not to judge her behaviors. But unfortunately people's pasts are very much an indicator of how they'll behave in the future. They may overcome certain tendencies they have, and good for those people who have, but those tendencies will still be there and may matter when the going gets tough (which is when some hidden behaviors tend to emerge in some marriages).


Unless the person has some HUGE epiphany about their bad behavior.

I did some crap things before age 25. Things i learned from and have not repeated in 11 years.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

CandieGirl said:


> I suppose, I'm just still raw from that thread last week, about 'moral equivalence'...that one got me really pissed off, especially when I was told by another member that since I'd been around the block a few times, I knew a lot about sex, but nothing about 'making love'. I can't stand self-righteous, condescending, holier than thou types.





anonim said:


> virtuous my foot LOL. What is the point of being able to say 'my body is pristine, chaste, undefiled' when your mind is not pristine, chaste or undefiled because you judge other people?





> *CandieGirl said*: I have great difficulty gleaning anything useful from those who've only had one partner in life





> *CandieGirl said*: Thanks, SW! It's nice to be understood...and I might add that sometimes, someone's LACK of sexual history matters as well.


How about if we just get this out in the open - shall we. It is very obvious here Candiegirl is speaking about ME... Yes, I'm guilty... I put a STUPID mindless post up with the definitions of SEX vs. MAKING LOVE in that thread







.... but believe it or not, when I posted that....I wasn't saying or insinuating that those who aren't chaste/pure/pristine/virtuous never "Make Love"...or those who are just falling in love, who are dating ..... No not at all [email protected]#$%^&* Even those who choose to have "screw buddies" are capable of Making Love. Some great movies where it takes that sweet turn!

Of course people don't have to have a Wedding certificate with a cherry popping to "Make Love".... Do you think I am that much of a FOOL? ..... Don't answer. 

I posted in haste ....I am not a perfect person above speaking out of her azz once in awhile. But I beg to stress here..... was you inside my head...did you KNOW what I was thinking while posting that -- I did go on to EXPLAIN .....after I realized women were up in arms -so I immediately... out of respect & the misunderstanding , DELETED that very post! 

This was my reply to express WHAT I WAS REALLY THINKING when I posted it ....Ya know many things can Be taken wrongly....I do it too. This is WHY I tend to be long winded many times to avoid such things....and well, on that post, I wasn't . 

Here is my repeat explanation >>>



> *SimplyAmorous said*: After I posted that, I thought it was too strong and I never meant it to mean that someone had to wait till they were married ..oh goodness no! People anywhere, married or not , young or old ....can "Make love", when they show their vulnerable side, and the emotion is there between them. Some on this site may argue they had more Love making before Marriage even began!
> 
> Players aren't making Love though.
> 
> When I think of *just Sex* in a negative way, I think of ONS'a and something like this....
> 
> We have a Guy friend who drives Transportation for a huge State campus...and tells us many of his adventures, it scares the hell out of him for his own Kids.... ... he sees it all -these young adults half drunk trying to have sex on the bus-he has to stop them... loads of them going to these big parties, one girl asked him to DO her..... that kinda atmosphere, it's all SEX, for the instant RUSH, gratification, no strings attached , let's stick it in & Party it up.


 Does this example offend also? Can Players Make Love sure, but is he when he is PLAYING ?? Am I all wet here ? I do believe he can have a change of heart in the midst of his playing... like that song.... "I fooled around and fell in love".....

If my example here is not a good one of SEX just being SEX, please give me some. 

I can't persuade any of you to view me outside of what you have already painted in your head due to some of my posts & old fashioned personal opinions. 

I never intentionally meant to hurt anyone with my words ...-even though I can SEE how it could have been taken WRONGLY ....for this









But I do not feel I personally deserve those labels (and then some)...for my "difference of opinion" or what I will teach my daughter in regards to men, her emotions, her future and her life.... on some of these matters. 

If you can speak freely how your view have helped you in life...and you are proud of who you are & your choices.... I feel I should have the same freedom on an open forum. 

My views are very very very RARE here... I wanted a virgin male (do you hear anyone else saying [email protected]#$%^).... because for me... the romance of the awkward vulnerability in high emotion is beautiful. As explained here>> 



> *SimplyAmorous said*: in my youth.. I strongly desired a virgin male, even prayed for a man like that... of course he had to be "cute". God answered my prayers.
> 
> I so dreamed of being with my "one & only"... stumbling together in our awkwardness, exploring each others bodies with amazement for the 1st time. There is something very
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> about that to me. ... one couldn't beat the romance of that out of me- it is a part of who I AM.
> 
> No matter my age, it will never be about the "pleasure ride" alone.... as much as the vulnerable giving & receiving of emotions that are flowing between 2 's sharing the most intimate of intimates with each other... this becoming of ONE. I am too sensitive of a woman to allow myself to be with someone devoid of THIS depth of feeling.


Just as YOU get your feathers ruffled when you feel others are speaking "down" on those with too much experience....I am on the other side of the fence.... I get mine ruffled when others speak down on those with too little experience -- is that fair ? 

I think many GOOD hearted beautiful people may not BE all that experienced -including men.. it stomps on my husband, it stomps on my son and anyone who does value remaining a virgin. You see, me & my husband throw Large Bonfire bashes for Youth Groups, OK... I know MANY of these types of people...the youth, their parents, I have talked to them, heard their stories as well, I hear how THEY get made fun of in school-because they are different. DO I think that is Cool... No... I do not. 

Do I think many of these people will make fine lifetime partners. ...I DO! So I speak. 

I got a little carried away making a Big hoopla over women commenting on men's D1ck sizes...stupid of me... Yeah... opinionated & out of place.... I agree ! I am known for putting my foot in my mouth at times....









I guess we all take some offense to things others may NOT. And no, this doesn't mean my Husband is a 4 incher either. He is Mr Average & it fills me pretty snuggly, thank you.  

So in this way.... this is my explaining of myself - on a platter to my wrongdoing. 



tacoma said:


> In fact i see many more problems in this forum that stem from a lack of experience sexually than due to a history of promiscuity


 Absolutely...and I agree. Although we never had sexual issues, I was surely "repressed" due to too many religious teachings & feeling certain acts were DIRTY... I can't say it ever hampered our sex life to where either of us even cared ....amazingly. But we surely could have been doing a whole lot more... more adventure / more variety / more of the erotic....I think because we were , from the get go, basking in the emotional connection so strongly.... we simply never gave a damn! 

**** Here is how I feel about the 2 sides of the fence... I feel BOTH can have their issues...but they are very different issues....

For instance... the inexperienced /virgins ... one is taking a chance the wife is LD, doesn't like sex, not compatible in bed..or even the husband may have sexual hang ups /maybe he is LD -- sure it is an issue --HELL YEAH ...a disaster in fact, a prison if one is against divorce !!! 

Why I feel some experimentation and lots of hands on -should be engaged in -at the very least...then it is common for "Inhibitions"/ some Repression -because of so much restraint in the past... So here is their HOLE to dig themselves out of... their fight for sexual freedom & expression with each other, and hopefully they both enjoy sex ! 

Where their advantage may be..they do not have prior experiences to "cloud" this newness. They likely feel "accepted" totally -beings they waited for each other. So it is an "emotional" advantage. 

ON the other side of the fence....This is the RISK I see....(you can take pop shots at me since I really have no idea -never having experienced it).......This is purely from listening to others stories....those who have been hurt over & over in their sexual relationships... many, in order to protect themselves....a downplaying of those emotions begin...a subtle numbing, a not giving oneself fully ..as to protect against another hurt.....

If a women has had many experiences like this, it takes a hit on her vulnerablity, how can it not... so when she does meet Mr Right... her struggle is NOT sexual experience /repression like the other woman, her struggle may be to fully let loose emotionally, giving into intimacy in all it's beauty .......believing ...."Is this REAL, can I trust him, does he love me for ME totally unequivically "..... because she doesn't want to be burned again, who wants that slice to their heart. Many of these women RUN because they fear intimacy, Men do it also. IT is something NEW and scary as hell for some of them. 

It may even become difficult for her to recognize when her husband is "making love" to her...she may see his intentions as just "sticking it in a hole" -if she has experienced past Bf's like this, this could rear it's ugly head in her psyche..... carrying over into marraige. 

Not all women will have either issues of course, but it seems those are the bigger risks on both sides of the fence. 

Pick me apart.


----------



## FalconKing

tacoma said:


> Excellent point.
> 
> Well excellent point if you fail to consider that people are not static entities and change constantly.
> If you take that fact into consideration then the point kinda fades away and becomes pretty much moot.


Yes. True. But also i'd like to add it takes people constantly doing things differenty and thinking differently to have different results. If you have an alcoholic friend who tells you he got drunk yesterday but today who will not do it again because he is a human being and he is forever changing will you take that at face value? Until someone does differently their words don't mean much if they have a habit of doing something else. I never said people couldn't change. But until they do their past is a pretty good indicator of what kind of person they are. And changing can take anywhere from months to years. Sorry I *FAILED* because I don't think you.


----------



## that_girl

I am pure. I've had 9 partners. All of who meant something to me. My motives were pure.  

I have known "virgins" who have done everything but pop the hymen. Not very chaste. 

I wasn't sleeping with people (quite a few of my 9 were in one year) because I had daddy issues...it was because I had been in a horrible relationship for years and wanted to enjoy my sexuality instead of believing I was wrong for having such a strong sex drive (what ex told me). So, yea, I went a bit silly--- but with friends and bfs. I was over age 25. Oh well. 

My sexual relationships didn't leave me scarred or hurt. I learned quite a bit from many of them. They were mature sexual encounters without games...some were bfs, a couple were friends' with benefits. No drama.

Maybe that's where the difference lies? I am not sure. I just know my past is my past. My recent past of 5 years has been with my husband...and ONLY my husband  How awesome! My longest relationship, and most fulfilling. The relationship I was waiting for all those years. I just had to wait for him to grow up ( :lol: seeing that he's 7 years younger than I). 

I know when H is making love, and when he's just sticking me. MOST of the time, we're on the same page with that. Sometimes, I stop him and say, "HEY! I have a face too!  " sometimes he wants more affection, etc. But we have fun with it.

Even when I was a virgin (til age 21), I knew I was HD. I had a HUGE urge for sexual contact/making out/etc.


----------



## Thundarr

that_girl said:


> Unless the person has some HUGE epiphany about their bad behavior.
> 
> I did some crap things before age 25. Things i learned from and have not repeated in 11 years.


That's what smart people and people with character do. Everyone has skeletons.


----------



## that_girl

Oh I have made some other big mistakes...but therapy helped with that too. lol.

I just think if you are a good person, you'll attract good people. If you look for certain things that matter to you, you'll find them. IF you see red flags, then get out...it's ok to judge! You have to judge to get the right partner for you! Hell, everyone judges the people they date. 

However, that judgment is on that person...not a sweeping judgement about people with "a past".

I'd NEVER date a drug addict....not even a recovering one. This is a sweeping judgement of mine based on childhood bullcrap and just general knowledge about most drug addicts. They are illegal, and nasty. I'd also never get with an alcoholic. I would watch my dates and how much alcohol they consumed. Those are judgements. But they were judgements on my potential mates. BIG difference than saying people who drink more than 4 drinks a night have a big problem. Nope. It is just a problem for me. That's all.


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## FalconKing

that_girl said:


> However, that judgment is on that person...not a sweeping judgement about people with "a past".
> 
> I'd NEVER date a drug addict....not even a recovering one.


You are saying you would never date anyone that was a drug addict but is not got good to make sweeping judgement of people with a past? Isn't that a double standard?


----------



## southbound

SimplyAmorous said:


> Just as YOU get your feathers ruffled when you feel others are speaking "down" on those with too much experience....I am on the other side of the fence.... I get mine ruffled when others speak down on those with too little experience -- is that fair ?


I'm in the same boat with you, SimplyAmorous. In today's world, it's as if an old fashioned person has to explain their actions because they're weird. Obviously, the old fashioned people have chosen their lifestyle because it is what they want, it's what they believe in, and it's what works for them. I think it's natural for those people to believe in their way and thinks its best, just the same as a Chevy person holds that automobile a bit higher for themselves than they do a Ford, if not, they wouldn't be a Chevy person. If they make a comment that supports their lifestyle, then they are suddenly "judging" those who don't believe their way. Everyone gets torn up today about judging. 

SA, I'm sure you could actually recommend your lifestyle to your children and others and feel good about it.


----------



## Caribbean Man

southbound said:


> I'm in the same boat with you, SimplyAmorous. * In today's world, it's as if an old fashioned person has to explain their actions because they're weird. Obviously, the old fashioned people have chosen their lifestyle because it is what they want, it's what they believe in, and it's what works for them.* I think it's natural for those people to believe in their way and thinks its best, just the same as a Chevy person holds that automobile a bit higher for themselves than they do a Ford, if not, they wouldn't be a Chevy person. If they make a comment that supports their lifestyle, then they are suddenly "judging" those who don't believe their way. Everyone gets torn up today about judging.
> 
> SA, I'm sure you could actually recommend your lifestyle to your children and others and feel good about it.


:iagree:

*IT IS WHAT WORKS FOR THEM.*

If it aint broke then,
*DON'T FIX IT............*

*"........Never compromise your fundamental boundaries or values out of fear.
Your boundaries support the integrity of your inner self........."*
Entropy3000


----------



## that_girl

FalconKing said:


> You are saying you would never date anyone that was a drug addict but is not got good to make sweeping judgement of people with a past? Isn't that a double standard?


Didn't I say that was a sweeping judgement on me? 



> I'd NEVER date a drug addict....not even a recovering one. This is a sweeping judgement of mine based on childhood bullcrap and just general knowledge about most drug addicts.


Oh! I sure did!!  I couldn't compromise on this. I grew up with drug addicts in my life. My dad was one and left because of drugs.

Drugs are one thing. Sex is another. To me. But it's all good. I didn't marry a drug addict.


----------



## that_girl

But what is old fashioned? 

I was not a virgin when married but I was a virgin until 21. WELL beyond my friends and some of my friends were "virgins till marriage" and they married at 19. Yea...huge wait for sex  I was in a serious relationship at 19...just no sex. wasn't ready.

I am very old fashioned in the role I take in the home. As is my husband.

Just because you save yourself for one person doesn't make you old fashioned. It's just a choice. Had I waited for marriage...I'd have been 33 for sex. Yea...wasn't going to happen. had I married the first man I slept with, we'd be divorced.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

that_girl said:


> I have known "virgins" who have done everything but pop the hymen. Not very chaste.


 I look at this differently than yourself... It still shows SOME RESTRAINT to not go there. Sometimes restraint is a good thing...a wise thing. Restaint on our anger, restraint on our spending, restraint on our mouth (yep -that's me!), restraint on drinking, restraint on...well...anything. 

I remember a post about a year ago in the sex section ...... The poster was a Teacher...like yourself.....he explained how some girls go around acting as though they were sanctimonious-because of no intercourse... bragging about how many boys they blew... feeling "yeah, do anything but just hold the hot dog out of the bun"....he felt that was MY attitude.... because I spoke how we touched each other but didn't go all the way until we married. Let me just say.... that is NOT my attitude and I would not think it OK for girls to go around and act like that -thinking they are "pure".... sometimes purity has nothing to do with the vagina... and this is surely one of those instances.

He went on to explain ...and I might add... beautifully (wish I could go find this old post)....that women who give their bodies fully to a man where there is a depth of feeling there, in those moments...what they have between them... that yeah... those girls were far above in purity, a purity of the







. 

So yeah, to compare the 2...it still comes down to the heart. I agree 110% with that. 

For me, I would not touch or allow a man to touch me below my navel unless I was deeply in love with him & he felt the same about me, there wouldn't be any unbuckling of his belt. 

All of us has a "threshhold" in our behavior -from how we allow our children to speak, down to how we interact socially with the opposite sex .... For me, penis in vagina -signifys the ability to create life itself...it is a "sacred" becoming of one -there is a time and a place. 

The other, I view as less sacred...simply because it does not have the amazingly ability to create *LIFE* itself. I see no responsibility greater that a Creator has bestowed on man...nothing that carries more weight. 

Just because we have a rubber in our pockets or can swallow a pill every day - in my view, doesn't erase or diminish what always was. 

That is just my view, so yes, I saw value in my restraint. 

Did I need to restrain with my husband back then...Not at all. I knew he'd marry me in a heartbeat. But yet, I still don't regret that we handled ourselves the way we did. 

My views should not stomp on anyone here, they are just mine alone.


----------



## that_girl

Yea, I don't put much on virginity. People do what they do and feel what they feel. Virgin or not, people can know love and how to make it.

I did have some firsts with my husband. Some places I've never gone...that was sacred. My vagina is just a body part like the other body parts that give and receive pleasure.


----------



## FalconKing

that_girl said:


> Didn't I say that was a sweeping judgement on me?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh! I sure did!!  I couldn't compromise on this. I grew up with drug addicts in my life. My dad was one and left because of drugs.
> 
> Drugs are one thing. Sex is another. To me. But it's all good. I didn't marry a drug addict.


So then can you see where others are coming from when they say sex. Instead of a drug addict? As you yourself said, some people make mistakes and learn from them. If a drug addict becomes a spiritual leader is he still disqualified as a person of interest of you if you were not married? He's a good person now but he has that past. Even though he's a good person now, you specifically said drugs, no matter if it's his past, is a deal breaker for you. Maybe people are telling you that you are being ridiculous and unfair because this man is not like that anymore. They are telling you are being uptight and judgemental. But the thing is you have every right to be that way because of your past. And you are not disrespecting anybody else. You just don't want to be married to anyone associated with that be it past or present. That's you conviction. Is it right for people to tell you your way is wrong or for ex-drug addicts to come out of the wood works crucifying you? Do you see the point i'm trying make? Also, why is fair for someone say they don't want an ex-drug addict and have you respect that, but anything that they don't have a problem with, you shouldn't have a problem with? How does that sound? That's why I asking about the double standard.


----------



## that_girl

Huh? I'm not religious either so I wouldn't date a spiritual leader, nor do I put any credit into them being 'good' people just because they are spiritual leaders. He could be AWESOME as a friend...just not a mate. Big difference. I have friends who are awesome and have some hard pasts. Some would make good mates (if they were men LOL!) and others, no, I wouldn't marry. I'm sure they think the same of me. Big deal. 

When choosing a mate, be picky as possible.

But the sweeping thing saying people who have sexual pasts are somehow deviant or wrong, is not correct. Not everyone who has a heavy sexual past has issues. Most drug addicts I've known, have MAJOR issues. Two family members gave up their children willingly for drugs. That's effed up. I have some "promiscuous" friends who wouldn't give up their kids. They are good people and their brain is not rotting away.

I can also say that the pull to do a heavy drug is NEVER gone. My stepsister was a meth and heroine user. She used for years. She's been clean about 7 years now....and she said not a day goes by where she doesn't want to hit it. She goes to 5 meetings a week STILL after 7 years.

Me, having a sexual past is not the same...unless it's a crazy sex addiction. There is a HUGE difference.

Just don't lie to people about your past and let them decide. It's not about being a better or worse person. It's about finding the best person for you 

I hope that answered what you were asking? I'm sorry, but I couldn't understand your post at all.


----------



## rj700

This is a very _*enthusiastic*_ discussion & group. And some very good debaters. I think I come down on the side that a person's sexual history matters only if it is important to you. Otherwise, it doesn't matter at all.

Here's the thing - I'll key off the comments about limiting risk, but the concept really extends way beyond that. The history may matter in the long run, but unfortunately for the VAST majority of people, it doesn't really matter in the short run. Counter intuitive you say?

We're talking about falling in love. I'm a very rational person, a critical thinker, logical to a fault. But there is nothing rational about falling in love. So it is very easy to analyze all this after the fact. Trying to figure out where we went wrong or why we didn't see this huge fault in our SO's behavior until we were 5 years, 10 years, 1 year, into marriage. 

I'm not trying to take away from anyone's belief, but love is all about risk. That's why good marriages survive on trust. We can all have a long list of what we will accept, what we are looking for, what our deal breakers are. But all of that requires OBJECTIVE, RATIONAL thought. And falling in love clouds our judgement. So that's why a person's sexual history is only important in the long run, not in the short run. And we get married in the short run. We stay married in the long run. It's a conundrum, wrapped in an enigma, surrounded by a paradox.


----------



## FalconKing

that_girl said:


> Huh? I'm not religious either so I wouldn't date a spiritual leader, nor do I put any credit into them being 'good' people just because they are spiritual leaders. He could be AWESOME as a friend...just not a mate. Big difference. I have friends who are awesome and have some hard pasts. Some would make good mates (if they were men LOL!) and others, no, I wouldn't marry. I'm sure they think the same of me. Big deal.
> 
> When choosing a mate, be picky as possible.
> 
> But the sweeping thing saying people who have sexual pasts are somehow deviant or wrong, is not correct. Not everyone who has a heavy sexual past has issues. Most drug addicts I've known, have MAJOR issues. Two family members gave up their children willingly for drugs. That's effed up. I have some "promiscuous" friends who wouldn't give up their kids. They are good people and their brain is not rotting away.
> 
> I can also say that the pull to do a heavy drug is NEVER gone. My stepsister was a meth and heroine user. She used for years. She's been clean about 7 years now....and she said not a day goes by where she doesn't want to hit it. She goes to 5 meetings a week STILL after 7 years.
> 
> Me, having a sexual past is not the same...unless it's a crazy sex addiction. There is a HUGE difference.
> 
> Just don't lie to people about your past and let them decide. It's not about being a better or worse person. It's about finding the best person for you
> 
> I hope that answered what you were asking? I'm sorry, but I couldn't understand your post at all.


Ok..first off you say you are not religious which I guess is an attempt the throw the point I was trying to make out the window. But that just an example of someone doing much better than they previous were. Then you go in great detail explaining why your way of thinking is the right way because of your experience. No one can argue with experience. And why you fail to see the double standard because you feel like anyone kind of sexual past shouldn't be rejected. Because you have a sexual past you wouldn't want anyone to reject you. Although I wasn't trying to say anything so black and white. You feel this thinking is wrong and unfair Then in closing you say you couldn't really understand what I was trying to say. 

So basically you are telling me =
"What you are saying doesn't apply to me. I can reject people for certain specific reasons, but nobody can reject for another specific reason. I'll defend my stance adamantly but then close by sayingwhat you said didn't make any sense. That way even if you reword i'll just say it doesn't make sense until you say it a way I like or retract it. "

Thanks:yawn2:


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## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> When choosing a mate, be picky as possible.
> 
> *But the sweeping thing saying people who have sexual pasts are somehow deviant or wrong, is not correct*. Not everyone who has a heavy sexual past has issues. Most drug addicts I've known, have MAJOR issues. Two family members gave up their children willingly for drugs. That's effed up. I have some "promiscuous" friends who wouldn't give up their kids. They are good people and their brain is not rotting away.
> 
> .


I really don't think anybody was saying that any woman with a sexual past is / was deviant.

What is deviant is LYING about that past of REFUSING to accept that a potential partner should have concerns about it.
Also , the same advice that you gave above, to justify your position;

".........when choosing a mate be picky as possible....."

Is what the OP, and many others have advocated in the beginning, and continue to advocate.
Its just that their points of reference pertained to a woman's sexual past, whilst yours was prior drug / alcohol abuse. And I am certain you may also have many other reference points.

So logically, a man has the right to judge a woman on her past . Be it Drug and Alcohol abuse , Fraud , Mental Issues and most of all Sexual behaviour.


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## that_girl

Lying is always bad. 

I never said you can't reject people for certain reasons 

I said BE PICKY! What do you think that means? Geebus.

BEEEE PICKKYYYYYY!! Don't date people with a sexual past. Fine. That's awesome. I don't give a rats arse. 

Please don't quote things I didn't say. Just because you can't understand it doesn't mean I'm saying what you think I said.



:rofl:

I'm out. Have fun. Don't date druggies or whomever you don't want to date. Some people would have thought i was a big ho that year. Maybe I was. But it was fun, no one was hurt, and i discovered who I am--- BEFORE being in a commitment relationship. I didnt have to go "find myself." I was already found.


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## Caribbean Man

That Guy Kyle said:


> Do you guys have any opinion on the studies that show odds of divorce shoot way up if the woman has multiple sex partners before marriage? I'm not taking a position, but it gives me pause. I like the idea of not judging people for their pasts, I want that to be how people are. But then I read about studies like those and I worry that maybe it is a problem.


Yes there are studies.

The Social Pathologist: Infidelity, Part 2.

They were other studies posted on another forum.

And just to make it equal, there are studies showing what type of men are more susceptible to cheating.

These are PROVEN theories.
Those who choose to ignore it do so at their own peril.


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## Gaia

Whew.... this topic was hardcore!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl

Gaia said:


> Whew.... this topic was hardcore!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I looove hardcore music. I need some right about now.

nnts nnts nnts. LOLOL.....


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## FalconKing

Totally missing the point. I hope you don't think this whole post was about you and your past. If you do, once again that's your problem as "that girl" I was talking about and using to prove my stance was not you.


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## that_girl

FalconKing said:


> Totally missing the point. I hope you don't think this whole post was about you and your past. If you do, once again that's your problem as "that girl" I was talking about and using to prove my stance was not you.


Oh I know this isn't about me. I don't even know if I was talking to you to begin with. You just took my post and ran with it. Or maybe I did. I have no idea. I've been talking to a 3 year old all day. LOL!

Good day.


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## FalconKing

Ma'am:scratchhead:

I made this thread............


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## that_girl

FalconKing said:


> Ma'am:scratchhead:
> 
> I made this thread............


Yes, I know. I was replying to something SA said though. My bad.

I do think that LYING about sexual past is horrible. The point of dating is to see if things will work. BEING PICKY is what dating is about.

To lie doesn't give the other person the opportunity to make the BEST CHOICE.

So, I sympathize with you there. If I was dating someone who lied about being a drug addict, all hell would break lose.

Sorry for jacking your thread and replying to someone else.

(But say something snarky cause I want to say, "I SAID GOOD DAY!"  :rofl: ....yes, I'm a little nuts at the moment. )


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## Gaia

Uh pffft "something snarky!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sandc

I am religious. I am a leader in my church. I have a pretty checkered past. I don't do those things any more.

I don't need my woman to be innocent. I need her to be truthful. Just as I am.


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## that_girl

I think people take dating WAY too personally. Sounds silly, but it's true.

Dating is to get to know people...to be able to say, "I like that, I don't like that". If you LIE, then the person can't be picky. Just because someone doesn't like something about you doesn't make you a bad person. It just means you wouldn't be a good fit. 

I used to take things personally. I wasted a lot of time wondering why someone didn't call..blah blah. Then i wised up. I'd date and if they didn't call, oh well...i'd date some more. big deal. THAT is what dating is FOR.


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## FalconKing

that_girl said:


> I think people take dating WAY too personally. Sounds silly, but it's true.
> 
> Dating is to get to know people...to be able to say, "I like that, I don't like that". If you LIE, then the person can't be picky. Just because someone doesn't like something about you doesn't make you a bad person. It just means you wouldn't be a good fit.
> 
> I used to take things personally. I wasted a lot of time wondering why someone didn't call..blah blah. Then i wised up. I'd date and if they didn't call, oh well...i'd date some more. big deal. THAT is what dating is FOR.


Point taken. I date from the perspective though that this person could potentially be my wife. And if I don't feel that or I have some reservations then I don't get involved. Because even if it's just casual dating, people feelings will get involved if you spend enough time together. And I feel like I can't see this woman as my potential spouse then i'm wasting her time or she's wasting mine. And after spending so much time and I still have this thought in my back in my head, i'm using her. Especially if we start having sex.


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## kl84

that_girl said:


> I think people take dating WAY too personally. Sounds silly, but it's true.
> 
> Dating is to get to know people...to be able to say, "I like that, I don't like that". If you LIE, then the person can't be picky. Just because someone doesn't like something about you doesn't make you a bad person. It just means you wouldn't be a good fit.
> 
> I used to take things personally. I wasted a lot of time wondering why someone didn't call..blah blah. Then i wised up. I'd date and if they didn't call, oh well...i'd date some more. big deal. THAT is what dating is FOR.


SO true. So so so so true. Pretty much all of my friends have let ALL of their dates turn into LTR's. Then they wonder why they are in such crappy relationships. 

I didn't get hung up on a guy. Sure there may have been things about him that I absolutely loved but if he displayed any behaviors that I just couldn't deal with.......NEXT. That simple. If a guy didn't call me back I was immensely appreciative that he didn't waste my time lol. I have been in ONE failed relationship. One. And I swore, if I had to be single for the rest of my life, I would. And I meant it. By giving a date the awkward, "Sorry, I don't think this is going to work out" speech, I was able to find my husband. I dated several guys between him and my ex but I never settled and kept faith that if I left the door open, someone would come in that I could handle. I just don't understand why some women (and men) seem to make the same mistakes over, and over, and over again.... once was enough for me.....


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## that_girl

FalconKing said:


> Point taken. I date from the perspective though that this person could potentially be my wife. And if I don't feel that or I have some reservations then I don't get involved. Because even if it's just casual dating, people feelings will get involved if you spend enough time together. And I feel like I can't see this woman as my potential spouse then i'm wasting her time or she's wasting mine. And after spending so much time and I still have this thought in my back in my head, i'm using her. Especially if we start having sex.


Oh it's different if you are 'seeing each other' on a consistent basis. i was talking about dating. meeting people, going out and talking, etc. 1-3 dates. if you are more than that, then yea, there are feelings. 

I just dated. i was tired of settling for guys that treated me badly just because I was lonely or whatever. I dated and got to know many people (without sex). Then I met my husband and I just knew


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## hookares

FalconKing, the "lady" who is the subject of this thread sounds like my ex except for the fact that she doesn't even know the names of the fathers of her two children she passed off as being mine.
If it's her and anybody is interested, I think I know which bridge she is now living under.


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## SimplyAmorous

FalconKing said:


> So then can you see where others are coming from when they say sex. Instead of a drug addict? As you yourself said, some people make mistakes and learn from them. If a drug addict becomes a spiritual leader is he still disqualified as a person of interest of you if you were not married? He's a good person now but he has that past. Even though he's a good person now, you specifically said drugs, no matter if it's his past, is a deal breaker for you. Maybe people are telling you that you are being ridiculous and unfair because this man is not like that anymore. They are telling you are being uptight and judgemental. But the thing is you have every right to be that way because of your past. And you are not disrespecting anybody else. You just don't want to be married to anyone associated with that be it past or present. That's you conviction. Is it right for people to tell you your way is wrong or for ex-drug addicts to come out of the wood works crucifying you? Do you see the point i'm trying make? Also, why is fair for someone say they don't want an ex-drug addict and have you respect that, but anything that they don't have a problem with, you shouldn't have a problem with? How does that sound? That's why I asking about the double standard.


I know someone like this, he was into drugs, was in jail, a womanizer, he changed his whole life....for the better, he has more conviction against what he has done than anyone. I applaud him and how he has changed his life. It is not the average story though, I realize. 

He is one of my sons best frinds, a Mentor -a respected Youth Leader, worked himself up into a management position recently because of his behavior on the job..... He went on to marry a very "good christian girl" -likely having the un-popped cherry (but how would I know), I just know the family....all of this after his being a Womanizer. 

I know People can change, this is why I wouldn't hold a past against anyone....I may be more weary...but as long as there is breathe, there is hope....it always comes down to their actions speaking louder than their words. And this guy...well... he earned the respect of a multitude around him in a few years. 

I just think that speaks. Just my 2 cents.


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## Thundarr

sandc said:


> I am religious. I am a leader in my church. I have a pretty checkered past. I don't do those things any more.
> 
> I don't need my woman to be innocent. I need her to be truthful. Just as I am.


:iagree: We should all be truthful, learn from our mistakes, and own our past.


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## that_girl

What is considered "a lot" of sexual partners, though?

Let's see what people think..I'm curious. I don't know anyone in my personal life with more than 10 people...so I'm curious as to what qualifies as a lot to the people here.


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## Thundarr

that_girl said:


> What is considered "a lot" of sexual partners, though?
> 
> Let's see what people think..I'm curious. I don't know anyone in my personal life with more than 10 people...so I'm curious as to what qualifies as a lot to the people here.


I'll try to be specific but really it would take a VERY special woman to push these upper limits.

If you have been single for 5-10 years of your adult life then 1-10 is okay, 11-20 makes me ask questions, 21-30 requires that I know something life changing happened and still maybe I couldn't handle it, and more than that is too much.

Other important factors are if you have cheated 1 time then I'm concerned, if you have cheated 2 times requires that I know something life changing happened but probably still a deal breaker, and more than that is too much.

I would not be able to cope with kinky past like 3ways, orgies, swinging, etc.

Affair with a married OP is almost deal breaker even once. Twice is no question.


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## that_girl

I have had 9 partners. H is lucky number 9 (my lucky number  ). 4 of those were in one year. To me, that was a bit much but...I don't regret it, however, I can see if someone had met me at THAT time, then it would have been a lot. I was 27 by then...had one partner from ages 21 to 22 (we dated a year before we had sex). Same year we broke up, had another and was knocked up by 22...had my baby at 23. Was with her dad (horrible relationship) until I was 25. No sex when I left him because the man I was with after that ...we didn't have sex...it would have made things too complicated. but that was a good relationship (weird, I know). So at 26ish, I was single and then had 4 people.  Around 28, I met a man and we dated 10 months before having sex....so 29 and now 7 partners. I dated that man for 3 years. faithfully. We broke up and I had 2 partners that year. I hadn't had sex for 2 months when I met my husband...and I've been with him since. 

I dunno. In different times in my life, I could have been considered a big ho :rofl: I had to go through some things in life to get to where I am. I'm 36 now and know enough about myself to know I wasn't a ho...just living my life and at that time, that was how I lived.

I never really cared how many people men had been with. I just wanted to know how they treated their mates (generally) and if they were into the whole "bar" scene. I didn't do the bar scene.


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## Thundarr

that_girl said:


> I have had 9 partners. H is lucky number 9 (my lucky number  ). 4 of those were in one year. To me, that was a bit much but...I don't regret it, however, I can see if someone had met me at THAT time, then it would have been a lot. I was 27 by then...had one partner from ages 21 to 22 (we dated a year before we had sex). Same year we broke up, had another and was knocked up by 22...had my baby at 23. Was with her dad (horrible relationship) until I was 25. No sex when I left him because the man I was with after that ...we didn't have sex...it would have made things too complicated. but that was a good relationship (weird, I know). So at 26ish, I was single and then had 4 people.  Around 28, I met a man and we dated 10 months before having sex....so 29 and now 7 partners. I dated that man for 3 years. faithfully. We broke up and I had 2 partners that year. I hadn't had sex for 2 months when I met my husband...and I've been with him since.
> 
> I dunno. In different times in my life, I could have been considered a big ho :rofl: I had to go through some things in life to get to where I am. I'm 36 now and know enough about myself to know I wasn't a ho...just living my life and at that time, that was how I lived.
> 
> I never really cared how many people men had been with. I just wanted to know how they treated their mates (generally) and if they were into the whole "bar" scene. I didn't do the bar scene.


That number is pretty normal I think. Plus you were in several relationships over those years. 9-10 years is a long time to make notches and really there was just a short stretch where you were playing "wild child".


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## that_girl

I did have fun  Learned a TON about my sexuality. I have always been HD and made fun of it by partners. During my 'wild child' days, I learned I am normal...and it's ok to be HD. I stopped having hangups about it and felt much better about myself.


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## that_girl

I was just curious as to what people thought was a lot.

For some it could be more than 2. for others it could be more than 20.

I guess it just comes down to being honest with your prospective mate if they ask...you are who you are.


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## Lon

My number is pretty low by my definition, but a woman would be foolish to write me off as too inexperienced to know how to have good sex. Sure I have my own flaws and reasons for low numbers that affect me in the bedroom, and yes I will be awkward and maybe timid at first, so if you are looking for NSA, ONS I'm probably not experienced enough with strange to be of much good, but if you have just a shred of patience and can have fun getting through the awkward first stages, maybe it would take a few times but would become truly fantastic - I am quite confident that I am as good a lover as any man there ever was, for the right woman, I'm human after all its kind of instinctual (and of course like in revenge of the nerds, all I think of is sex, all jocks think of is sports, I love understanding sexuality) The problem for me is my sex personality pits me halfway between traditional and promiscuous, nobody ever seems to go there, they all seem to want to promiscuity until the one comes along to be traditional for, or else they are all traditional and want the virgin. Well sorry, I'm 36 divorced dad of a five year old, that is introverted, low numbers with many a beta qualities, yes I have baggage, but in that baggage comes a lot of useful things that you could benefit from if you are willing to not play the stupid games your girlfriends all play.


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## larry.gray

that_girl said:


> I did have fun  Learned a TON about my sexuality. I have always been HD and made fun of it by partners. During my 'wild child' days, I learned I am normal...and it's ok to be HD. I stopped having hangups about it and felt much better about myself.


Jackasses.

When you find a HD woman, you marry her not make fun of her!!!


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## FalconKing

I've had 4. I actually lost my virginity to some random girl in high school who name I can't even remember. She was one of those girls that everybody could sleep with. That's how little my virginity meant to me. After I did that I didn't like the way it felt. I didn't even like that girl and we did that. But it took me a while to come to the realization. I had to get past that, "i'm cool because i'm no longer a virgin" mindset. I didn't have sex again until my early twenties. The most recent being my ex. Actually, interesting story. Even though she had been with so many guys, I was the first to find her G-spot and make her squirt. She didn't even know she could do that. When I did that, she was somewhat resentful of me that I know something about her body that she didn't(she really had a lot of issues with insecurities....). After I found her G-spot I said to her I wanted to be a man that pleased her all kinds of ways. She kept trying to get me let insert things in my rear end. I told her absolutely not and she got really mad and actually tried to do it. Then she sarcastically repeated what I said to her back to me. I think she was trying to bring me out of my comfort and dominate me to regain control. Because even though I was just trying to give her pleasure, she felt she lost it. 

I always read about sexuality and relationships. Even though i'm not as experienced physically, pleasing a woman and being a great lover is important to me. So I guess that's how I gain my knowledge.


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## SimplyAmorous

Lon said:


> My number is pretty low by my definition, but a woman would be foolish to write me off as too inexperienced to know how to have good sex. Sure I have my own flaws and reasons for low numbers that affect me in the bedroom, and yes I will be awkward and maybe timid at first, so if you are looking for NSA, ONS I'm probably not experienced enough with strange to be of much good, but if you have just a shred of patience and can have fun getting through the awkward first stages, maybe it would take a few times but would become truly fantastic - I am quite confident that I am as good a lover as any man there ever was, for the right woman, I'm human after all its kind of instinctual (and of course like in revenge of the nerds, all I think of is sex, all jocks think of is sports, I love understanding sexuality) The problem for me is my sex personality pits me halfway between traditional and promiscuous, nobody ever seems to go there, they all seem to want to promiscuity until the one comes along to be traditional for, or else they are all traditional and want the virgin. Well sorry, I'm 36 divorced dad of a five year old, that is introverted, low numbers with many a beta qualities, yes I have baggage, but in that baggage comes a lot of useful things that you could benefit from if you are willing to not play the stupid games your girlfriends all play.


Love your post, love your perspective , this is pretty much how I look at it...these men too are so worth the time & the chance. They may have a different kind of baggage per say, different hurdles than the other men, but this by no means = less worthy than the Alpha dogs. 

Even Athol Kay in his  The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011  devoted a paragragh to the differences in Lover styles and says Betas win over the Aphas because the Betas hands down care MORE about pleasing their partners. I can attest -just how very true this is. 

And I have always felt (even in my zero experienced state) & remember saying to my husband so many times in our early marraige... "How the H do you know Just how to touch me, what to do with me like [email protected]#$% " with a beaming  on my face - telling him he was an excellent lover. I remember feeling amazed by his touch. 

So much of this goes on instinct too , so I believe. We may not have gotten wild & crazy, but I was still 100% satisfied. 

And not to put myself down here, but am pretty hard to please in reality. 

My pleasure has always been HIS pleasure....this is how most Betas feel....and strongly....I bet you'd agree Lon....don't we all want a Lover like this ?


----------



## cloudwithleggs

southern wife said:


> :iagree: I'd rather have a man that knows the female body and how it works rather than someone that does not!


I'd rather a man that knows my body and not loads of other women's, the experience a man like that brings to the table is theirs not mine and he would have to learn my body, so what is the difference.

I prefer a man that value themselves and doesn't sleep around, i do believe that there are men like this

I personally only ever had seven partners, most have been long term, so i have never had a one night stand or casual sex, does this thwart the experience side i don't think so.

The only really bad relationship is the one with my estranged husband that is an N, but i have really learn't aot from it, so i am really ready for a decent guy.

I have had men try to get me drunk for sex, had a few old BF's try to sleep with me again i refused.

Now i face dating again, do i do casual sex, i just don't know, because how will i know, it will be novel to know a man doesn't mind sharing me with other men.


----------



## that_girl

I love that H knows MY body. I think I've had more lovers than he has. But he is also younger than me.


----------



## Caribbean Man

cloudwithleggs said:


> *I'd rather a man that knows my body and not loads of other women's, the experience a man like that brings to the table is theirs not mine and he would have to learn my body, so what is the difference.*
> 
> I prefer a man that value themselves and doesn't sleep around, i do believe that there are men like this
> 
> I personally only ever had seven partners, most have been long term, so i have never had a one night stand or casual sex, does this thwart the experience side i don't think so.
> 
> The only really bad relationship is the one with my estranged husband that is an N, but i have really learn't aot from it, so i am really ready for a decent guy.
> 
> *I have had men try to get me drunk for sex, had a few old BF's try to sleep with me again i refused.*
> 
> Now i face dating again, do i do casual sex, i just don't know, because how will i know, it will be novel to know a man doesn't mind sharing me with other men.


^^^^^^^^^^
Very PROFOUND!
And it is that way because you place a certain VALUE on sex, and your sexuality.


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## SimplyAmorous

FalconKing said:


> I always read about sexuality and relationships. Even though i'm not as experienced physically, pleasing a woman and being a great lover is important to me. So I guess that's how I gain my knowledge.


My husband sounds similar to you FalconKing.... he had about 300 Playboy magazines under his bed when he was a Teen and he says he accually read the articles too...which he is not normally a reader. I am sure the fact we met so young is why we was able to only be with each other.... had I not found Mr Right by the time I was 24 , who knows what might have been... I'd be getting pretty darn antsy by then.


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## Sbrown

My first wife was a ***** when I married her, my second wife a virgin and guess what, they are both bat sh!t CRAZY!!!!!!


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## that_girl

Sbrown said:


> My first wife was a ***** when I married her, my second wife a virgin and guess what, they are both bat sh!t CRAZY!!!!!!


Well, not tryin to be rude...but...the common factor in this is you.



lolol. I'm just talkin out of mah butt. So yea. kidding, kidding.


----------



## Sbrown

that_girl said:


> Well, not tryin to be rude...but...the common factor in this is you.
> 
> 
> 
> lolol. I'm just talkin out of mah butt. So yea. kidding, kidding.


HOW RUDE!!! LMBO you know after my second divorce the same thing hit me. I was the common denominator. So I read and read and read and focused on the mistakes that I made in both marriages and vowed to fix them. So far so good. Wish me luck.


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## that_girl

Sbrown said:


> HOW RUDE!!! LMBO you know after my second divorce the same thing hit me. I was the common denominator. So I read and read and read and focused on the mistakes that I made in both marriages and vowed to fix them. So far so good. Wish me luck.


That is good. I had a friend who always complained about his "psycho" girlfriends. I finally said, "Dude. It's you." :lol: He's still psycho.


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## FirstYearDown

Thundarr said:


> I think that is important. Find at least one thing you've never done with anyone else and that can be a symbol.
> 
> If there's nothing you've ever done then THAT'S A PROBLEM


:iagree:

Even though I have had far too many sexual partners, I still saved anal sex and swallowing for my husband. Those acts were too intimate for me to do with other men and past partners pressured me too much for anal and cumming in my mouth. I don't respond well to being pressured into acts that I have already said no to. 

I am afraid to say how many partners I have had because I do not want to be flamed and s!ut shamed by some of the "virtuous" members on TAM.

Doing everything except sex and then calling yourself a virgin is hypocrisy at its finest.


----------



## Caribbean Man

FalconKing said:


> "...I actually lost my virginity to some random girl in high school who name I can't even remember. She was one of those girls that everybody could sleep with..."


The story of your first time, reminds me of mine.
I lost my virginity to a woman I met one day before , on a beach at a resort island here in the Caribbean. She was about 10 yrs older than me [ I was 16 ]. The sex was great. We went at it for the entire weekend.On the beach,in the villa all over.
I was taught that sex is supposed to be " special " so I " fell in love."
Back home we connected and she would come to my home every Saturday evening when I was alone., and we would have sex. I thought that was love.
But for her it was just the sex.
One time, my friend saw her car parked outside and he told me after that he knew her and she was married. I told him he was lying. I showed him some of the stuff she gave me, jewellery, her underwear , gifts etc.
Word began to spread.
Her husband accosted me,and began to accuse me of spreading rumours about his wife. 
I was shocked , but I just apologized.
I was so mad, I wanted to tell him about the little red birthmark on her left breast and other intimate stuff,but I held my tongue.
Just imagine,this woman was so depraved,that after that incident she still showed up by my place. I told her never to come again and gave her back all her stuff.
I was confused and furious.
From then began my long journey into meaningless , casual sex . I figured why waste time " getting to know her " when I could just as easily get into her pants without any effort. 
Never wanted to get married , I thought it was a waste of time,
Until I met my wife.

Nothing is wrong with your values , try to find a partner who shares them , bond with her, and the sex would be amazing.


----------



## southbound

SimplyAmorous said:


> And I have always felt (even in my zero experienced state) & remember saying to my husband so many times in our early marraige... "How the H do you know Just how to touch me, what to do with me like [email protected]#$% " with a beaming  on my face - telling him he was an excellent lover. I remember feeling amazed by his touch.
> 
> So much of this goes on instinct too , so I believe. We may not have gotten wild & crazy, but I was still 100% satisfied.





cloudwithleggs said:


> I'd rather a man that knows my body and not loads of other women's, the experience a man like that brings to the table is theirs not mine and he would have to learn my body, so what is the difference.
> 
> I prefer a man that value themselves and doesn't sleep around, i do believe that there are men like this.


I believe the basic sexual act does come from instinct. Nobody ever says, "I don't have to worry about my teenage daughter getting pregnant or my teenage son getting a girl pregnant because they are too young and haven't figured out how to do anything yet." My x wife had never had any experience when we met, and I remember her being nervous about the first HJ she gave me. Afterwards i told her it was great and she said, "Well, it wasn't too hard to figure out." 

Beyond instinct, I think being a good lover depends on the individual. What pleases one person may not be what sends another person over the moon. being with several partners doesn't necessarily mean you are an expert when you meet the next one.


----------



## that_girl

You can get pregnant without having mind blowing sex.
I did it once. :rofl:


----------



## that_girl

FirstYearDown said:


> Doing everything except sex and then calling yourself a virgin is hypocrisy at its finest.


Werd.


----------



## FalconKing

FirstYearDown said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Even though I have had far too many sexual partners, I still saved anal sex and swallowing for my husband. Those acts were too intimate for me to do with other men and past partners pressured me too much for anal and cumming in my mouth. I don't respond well to being pressured into acts that I have already said no to.
> 
> I am afraid to say how many partners I have had because I do not want to be flamed and s!ut shamed by some of the "virtuous" members on TAM.
> 
> Doing everything except sex and then calling yourself a virgin is hypocrisy at its finest.


Who are these people you are talking about? And was that meant as a jab at somebody? Who's the hypocrite? I haven't seen one post about somebody calling another member on this board a sl_t or a wh_re. People who have an extensive sexual past often say they are not ashamed of their past. Why then the need to be defensive and snarky? Everybody's sharing and being open


----------



## FalconKing

Caribbean Man.

That reminds me of another one of my experiences. 

My second time was with a woman whom I thought of as a friend. I was bummed out about some things I was going through at the time. She invited to come to my house and cook for me and watch a movie. I thought it was only that because I had never had that kind of experience before. I remember I was taking a nap and she came and laid on top of me and started taking of her clothes and kissing me. I was....ummm...weak. I had no idea it could happen like that. Now I know that if a woman invites herself to your place it could eventually lead to something like that. But at the time I had no idea. There was no romance, no flirtation, no courting. But apparently she had had feelings like that about me for a while. I felt like since we did something like that I was obligated to be her boyfriend(I think that was her plan). The relationship was awful. I felt like it was just backwards. We connected physically before we connected any other way. I told her I felt like we should stop having sex for a while and take the time to write about who we are as people and then give it to each other. When I received hers I was completely turned off. Maybe she just didn't know what I meant but it was just a light autobiography of her life. I just seemed like she we didn't think the same. I was so disappointed that I didn't even bother writing mine. I remember saving it but never finishing it. I told her we should just be friends and she tried to blackmail me to keep me being her boyfriend. She even lied and told me she was pregnant. I don't know why she wanted so badly to keep a relationship. She even told me we could be sex friends and I could have other girlfriends. That was crazy and at the same time sad. I felt bad that she was so lonely to suggest something like that. Eventually I won my freedom though:smthumbup:

I guess I could easily go into the life style of one night stands, taking into the account of my first two experiences. But I just need more than that. Also, if I want a woman who is not active with a lot of partners then I can't be that kind of man. I want her to value that in me like I do with her. Of course I know and women don't always value the same things when looking for a partner. But I want her to know that i'm not easy. Although naive would better suit me


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *FirstYearDown said*: Doing everything except sex and then calling yourself a *virgin* is hypocrisy at its finest.


Before we throw the Hypocricy word around, I think one has to determine what the word means ....problem is, everyone appears to have a difference of opinion on that. 

*#1.* If you look it up in the dictionarys of today, the general answer is ...."a person who has never had sexual intercourse." ..." A person who has not experienced sexual intercourse." 

*#2*. Wikapedia starts out >>


> Virginity is the state of a person who has never engaged in sexual intercourse. There are cultural and religious traditions which place special value and significance on this state, especially in the case of unmarried females, associated with notions of personal purity, honor and worth. Like chastity, the concept of virginity has traditionally involved sexual abstinence before marriage, and then to engage in sexual acts only with the marriage partner.


*#3*. Go ask ALice said this to "*How do you define a virgin*" >>>


> Frustrating as it may be, the simplicity of your question belies the complex definition of the term "*virgin*." To some, a virgin is someone who hasn't had sexual intercourse (that is, penis-to-vagina intercourse). To others, a virgin is a person who has not engaged in any intimate acts, including deep kissing, genital touching, and oral, vaginal, or anal sex. Still others may allow certain intimacies, like kissing and touching below the belt, while excluding other sex acts.


*#4*. Virginity - New Catholic Encyclopedia | Encyclopedia.com

*#5.* In the Bible, "the test" is the showing of the blood stained sheets (Deuteronomy 22:13-18)...

We had so much trouble with my hymen after we married, it is laughable (at the time I was not laughing though) -- I shared that story here >>> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/social-spot/48130-virginity-how-awkward-lose-5.html

I had my a$$ chewed out on a Christian forum for how we handled ourselves....I was just curious to their opinions... that was enlightening, I was told we needed to repent, we were sinners. That was alot of FUN. 

I know of only 1 couple who could qualify for this stringent view ..."To others, a virgin is a person who has not engaged in any intimate acts, including deep kissing"... Yep, they waited for their 1st kiss on their Wedding day ! Believe it or not. I never had a desire to be THAT Holy or Pure....NO.....that would have been pure torment! Furthermore I would have slammed God for even expecting man to live up to those standards. Gotta enjoy thyself a little...

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

Sometimes a woman may have a checkered past due to what happened to her in the past.

It is quite common for a woman who was sexually abused to have lackadaisal type attitudes about sex. A lot of sexually abused women are promiscuous as the sexual abuse leads them to believe that sex = love.

I know this as it happened to me. I was sexually active at a young age and had difficulty maintaining any relationship without sex being involved. Those issues weren't because I was trailer trash or a ****, etc., but what happened to me as a child screwed up my psyche to believe that sex = love.

So don't be so quick to judge someone simply based on sexual history.

I am a 25-year veteran of the armed forces. I have two grown children, a college degree and have been married almost 29 years. 

Just think, if my husband would have thought I was no good due to my sexual past, we wouldn't be where we are today.


----------



## that_girl

My hymen busted on the bar of my bicycle when I was 13. I remember going off the curb, slamming into the bar with my crotch, and bleeding a bit. I didn't get a period until I was 17. I still bled a bit on my first time, but probably not as much as I would have had i not hit my bike bar.

I guess "virgin" is just not having vaginal intercourse. "Chaste" would be the world that people are looking for, perhaps.

Falcon, your story there reminded me of one of my lovers. We were good friends...we painted together for a few months. He was a weird character. Charming and eccsentric. I told him I wondered what he would be like in bed...it was just a random thought while we were painting. He laughed and I said I was serious. I had never known anyone like him. Ever. I respected him tremendously for his art and his 'being'...but yet I knew we'd never be together. He doesn't want children or marriage, etc. I did. Anyhow, we ended up being friends with benefits for a while. It was amazing. I was able to explore quite a bit of myself without worrying if he'd call me the next day. 

But yea, if someone invites you over, that's usually code for "I want you"....ESPECIALLY if it's to cook for you or have your listen to some music :rofl:


----------



## FalconKing

that_girl said:


> Falcon, your story there reminded me of one of my lovers. We were good friends...we painted together for a few months. He was a weird character. Charming and eccsentric. I told him I wondered what he would be like in bed...it was just a random thought while we were painting. He laughed and I said I was serious. I had never known anyone like him. Ever. I respected him tremendously for his art and his 'being'...but yet I knew we'd never be together. He doesn't want children or marriage, etc. I did. Anyhow, we ended up being friends with benefits for a while. It was amazing. I was able to explore quite a bit of myself without worrying if he'd call me the next day.


Hey I have question(well a few). Were you relieved that he was in a way unavailable? Did you just want someone to have sex with that you trusted without having a relationship? What if he decided he wanted those romantic things with you? Would you have been happy? Did it hurt at all to know you guys had no future? It sounds like this man had a big impact on your life. To the point of which you were willing to give him your body. When it ended were you hurt? While you and him were having sex, and you met a man that you liked as a potential boyfriend, did you still date him? I'm curious, that' all. 

You are welcome to PM me if you don't want to answer here. Or you could not answer at all Perhaps these are things you don't want to talk about. I can respect that.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *MarriedWifeInLove said *: It is quite common for a woman who was sexually abused to have lackadaisal type attitudes about sex. A lot of sexually abused women are promiscuous as the sexual abuse leads them to believe that sex = love.


The statistics are staggering.... 

 Child Sexual Abuse Statistics One of my best friends, here her 2 daughters were being abused by an Uncle...it was the little brother that said something suspicious that uncovered what was going on. 

Her daughter started drawing pictures with locks on her mouth.. and other things expressing how she was feeling inside ....they published her pictures with her story of how this happened -in a way for children to read it and learn....the girl wanted to do this... & it can be bought online. So a good friend of mine is huge advocate speaking out against sexual abuse, to alert parents to the signs... It happens tremendously more inside families, than a stranger.


 Healing in the Hurting Places- sexual abuse


----------



## that_girl

FalconKing said:


> Hey I have question(well a few). Were you relieved that he was in a way unavailable? Did you just want someone to have sex with that you trusted without having a relationship? What if he decided he wanted those romantic things with you? Would you have been happy? Did it hurt at all to know you guys had no future? It sounds like this man had a big impact on your life. To the point of which you were willing to give him your body. When it ended were you hurt? While you and him were having sex, and you met a man that you liked as a potential boyfriend, did you still date him? I'm curious, that' all.
> 
> You are welcome to PM me if you don't want to answer here. Or you could not answer at all Perhaps these are things you don't want to talk about. I can respect that.


I do not mind talking about my past or my sexuality. We were good friends. Art partners. Very inspirational. It was nice to have good sex with someone that I trusted and respected and whom I felt comfortable with. Had he wanted more, I probably would have thought about it, but I wasn't thinking about it at that time. It didn't hurt to know we had no romantic future together (we did do tons of art together). He had a huge impact on me, and my art, and my perspective on a lot of things. He told me that I inspired him to be more settled, more detail oriented in his art. There was a mutual bond there, it just wasn't sexual at first. It definitely wasn't the same attraction that I had to people I dated. We just started out as friends and I was curious to how he'd be in bed BECAUSE of how passionate he was out of bed. 

When I would find someone to date, or he would...we'd date the person. I didn't sleep with anyone that I dated that year because I was just dating and really, no one grabbed my attention too much. My friend had that sexual attention (our sex was amazing...perhaps because we didn't worry about what the other thought..I duno.) 

My friend and I didn't sleep together all the time either. We could go a month or so just painting and then have sex for a week straight, then go a month. I loved it. It was....a really special time in my life, for me. 

I had my friends, he had his. We'd just hang out for art. I helped him show his work, he helped me finish my illustrations (for another friend's work). Then I met my husband.

And that was the end of my sexual relationship with my friend. My friend was very happy for me.  We kept in touch for a while, but faded away. I'll see his art stuff sometimes (he also is a designer for businesses in Los Angeles) and I'll smile. 

I just don't think that sex has to be only for people whom you want to settle down with. I loved my friend, it just wasn't the way I love my husband. But it was love. It wasn't casual sex, as there was some heavy feelings going on...but as an artist, I can be pretty passionate. lol.

I had a love of my life before H. Only one. We were best friends for 4 years, then he kissed me (We were both 25) and we dated for 9 months. Love of my life until Hubs. Never slept together. We were not emotionally ready. Sure, we did a lot of sexual things, but no intercourse. Do I think of that relationship as NOT a grand love of my life? Hell no. It taught me just what capacity I could love. When we broke up, I had never felt such despair. It was new to me. I swore I'd never settle for less and when I met my husband, what I felt superceded how I felt for my first love.

(sorry for typos...tired).

So...I dunno. I took everything as a moment by moment decision. I dind't say "I'll never...." because i didn't know. i was open to experiencing life, whatever that was, and breaking out of the hold that so many people had on me (my mom, my ex...). i was free.


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## FirstYearDown

FalconKing said:


> Who are these people you are talking about? And was that meant as a jab at somebody? Who's the hypocrite? I haven't seen one post about somebody calling another member on this board a sl_t or a wh_re. People who have an extensive sexual past often say they are not ashamed of their past. Why then the need to be defensive and snarky? Everybody's sharing and being open


:wtf:

I would not say who I am speaking of because that would be rude. No, it was not meant as a jab and just because _you _have not seen members call others slvt or wh0re, it does not mean that those words have not been used or heavily implied.

Not everyone who has had an extensive sexual past is proud and unashamed. I'm sure you are smart enough to realize that people have all sorts of feelings about their past mistakes, not just what you have experienced or noticed. 

There is nothing "snarky" about wanting to protect myself from nasty and untrue judgements. 

Only I choose what I am open about. It would be nice if you could extend the same respect for my privacy that you gave to TG.


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## FirstYearDown

SA, anal and oral are both forms of sex. Therefore, anyone who has done those things is _not _a virgin. I don't know if you engaged in anal or oral before you were married. If you did and you _still _say that you did not have sex before you walked down the aisle.....well, that gives me Bill Clinton flashbacks.

My promiscuity was a mixture of working out sexual abuse and making up for a very sheltered adolescence. My parents were too strict and when I finally got away from them, I went a little crazy.

I was sexually abused as a child and pressured into unwanted sexual acts by men I was dating. I also had the terrible experience of being used for sex by men I actually liked. I think that I was trying to get back at those men by breaking hearts and tossing men aside after I slept with them. 

That is all behind me now and I did learn what I liked in bed, as well as how to be assertive when being pushed into something sexual that I did not want to do.


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## Thundarr

I agree FirstYear. Us and most others would consider anal or oral something that counts when talking about sex partners.

I regards to the OP question. Yes out past and how we choose to learn or not from it shape who we are so OBVIOUSLY my wife's past matters to me.

Her past was a little checkered so sure it made me more cautious. Maybe that's one reason we dated for seven years before marriage. She and I had enough time to know what we were getting into.


----------



## FalconKing

FirstYearDown said:


> :wtf:
> 
> I would not say who I am speaking of because that would be rude. No, it was not meant as a jab and just because _you _have not seen members call others slvt or wh0re, it does not mean that those words have not been used or heavily implied.


When something is heavily implied that tends to mean it is open to interpretation. And if you are saying that you are insecure about your past you have to the right to be defensive even when no one is addressing you? What are you trying to communicate being like that? 

You being open is up to you. I was just saying that everyone was having a share time and you come in ranting. Imagine a group of people sitting around a fire place having heart to hearts and then suddenly someone shows up and stomps the fire out and she's like, "none of you guys disrespected or did anything to me..but sometimes when people gather around fires they say things I don't like. Please understand this"


----------



## Thundarr

FalconKing said:


> When something is heavily implied that tends to mean it is open to interpretation.


This is not directed at you guys or this thread so much but 

on TAM you don't have to say much because everyone can read minds on here lol. It's amazing how many assumptions and much twisting of the words go on.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> This is not directed at you guys or this thread so much but
> 
> on TAM you don't have to say much because everyone can read minds on here lol. *It's amazing how many assumptions and much twisting of the words go on.*


:lol:

Sometimes simple English can be so hard!

Collective Nouns , 
Adjectives ,
Figure Of Speech. 
Personification, and last but not least,
CONTEXTUALITY.

But it no longer bothers me after all,

"...A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand...."


----------



## SimplyAmorous

FirstYearDown said:


> SA, anal and oral are both forms of sex. Therefore, anyone who has done those things is _not _a virgin. I don't know if you engaged in anal or oral before you were married. If you did and you _still _say that you did not have sex before you walked down the aisle.....well, that gives me Bill Clinton flashbacks.


 No Bill Clinton flashbacks needed with me.... Nope, no oral and no anal....

. Remember I was the repressed girl who told her husband I thought all men's penis's were "homely"..... I never put my mouth down on him till years after we took our vows...and when he tried to do oral on ME.... I felt so icky about that, I always pushed him away. Obviously I had some "inhibitions" -that these acts were "dirty" swirling in my head...that needed overcame. 

My husband has told me his HOLE is off limits, he has never - nor ever will want anal. 

Oh but wait.... I did put my mouth on a neighbor boy -who was also my 1st kiss... when I was about 13...late one night spending the night at his sisters house.. his room was next to hers... that was the most sexual experimentation I ever had before my husband..... It was quick, like seconds, he did not get off, and I remember feeling very uncomfortable.....I stopped it. 

If that disqualifies me from being a Virgin, I guess anyone can take their stabs of judgement and lay it on me, calling me a hypocrite. I know my husband never looked upon me that way, and this is most important to me....and he knew all about that. I guess I would call myself a "dirty" "tainted" virgin - I would have passed the Virginity Test -that was given years back with the hymen intact.... that is my reasoning.


----------



## Thundarr

SimplyAmorous said:


> No Bill Clinton flashbacks needed with me.... Nope, no oral and no anal....
> 
> . Remember I was the repressed girl who told her husband I thought all men's penis's were "homely"..... I never put my mouth down on him till years after we took our vows...and when he tried to do oral on ME.... I felt so icky about that, I always pushed him away. Obviously I had some "inhibitions" -that these acts were "dirty" swirling in my head...that needed overcame.
> 
> My husband has told me his HOLE is off limits, he has never - nor ever will want anal.
> 
> Oh but wait.... I did put my mouth on a neighbor boy -who was also my 1st kiss... when I was about 13...late one night spending the night at his sisters house.. his room was next to hers... that was the most sexual experimentation I ever had before my husband..... It was quick, like seconds, he did not get off, and I remember feeling very uncomfortable.....I stopped it.
> 
> If that disqualifies me from being a Virgin, I guess anyone can take their stabs of judgement and lay it on me, calling me a hypocrite. I know my husband never looked upon me that way, and this is most important to me....and he knew all about that. I guess I would call myself a "dirty" "tainted" virgin - I would have passed the Virginity Test -that was given years back with the hymen intact.... that is my reasoning.


It's the difference between the definition versus what it means to people. 

Definition you are a virgin until your hymen is broken.
In reality lack of sexual experiences are what people associate with the term virgin. When I hear the word or say it, I'm talking about "reality" of what it means in conversation.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Thundarr said:


> It's the difference between the definition versus what it means to people.
> 
> Definition you are a virgin until your hymen is broken.
> In reality lack of sexual experiences are what people associate with the term virgin. When I hear the word or say it, I'm talking about "reality" of what it means in conversation.


Well.....am I a hypocrite for feeling I was ?? or not?? 

Noone likes to be called a Hypocrite....and IF I am being one, I'd want to correct that fact.... I am all for taking the plank out of my own eye.... before passing judgement elsewhere. 

I don't have a problem spilling it all out for others to judge.....so judge me TAMers. 

I had opporutnites to do a whole lot more in my youth. But I didn't. Every boy that ever liked me -didn't stick around -cause I told them flat out, theyd have to marry me to get me in bed. 

My husband was the one who proved his love. The others were fly by nights, had one thing on their minds.


----------



## that_girl

If I would have waited until marriage, I would have had to wait until was 33 :rofl:

That cracks me up. Although, some people who did wait until marriage (before they were 22), are divorced now. So it's all just a personal preference and we're all on a path.

Enjoy your bodies, take care of them, and use protection.


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## Goldmember357

that_girl said:


> I wouldn't want a man who had ONSs from bars either. So I didn't marry one. lol It's simple.


good choice. If you did it would only increase your likelihood for divorce 

there are always exceptions but there is no denying the direct correlation between pasts and sexual history to that of unstable relationships and divorce that are more prevalent among those who engage in risky behavior.


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## FalconKing

Man....kudos to you guys navigating this mobile site. I can't even like comments!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia

Lmao falcon.... I know how that is!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl

Goldmember357 said:


> good choice. If you did it would only increase your likelihood for divorce
> 
> there are always exceptions but there is no denying the direct correlation between pasts and sexual history to that of unstable relationships and divorce that are more prevalent among those who engage in risky behavior.


My mother was married 3 times. Once before my dad and once after my dad. I'm her only child.

All 3 men were bartenders.

Coincidence that all her marriages fell to crap? I think not.

Granted, she had some major issues of her own from her childhood, but...I swore to never date anyone from a bar.


----------



## FalconKing

that_girl said:


> My mother was married 3 times. Once before my dad and once after my dad. I'm her only child.
> 
> All 3 men were bartenders.
> 
> Coincidence that all her marriages fell to crap? I think not.
> 
> Granted, she had some major issues of her own from her childhood, but...I swore to never date anyone from a bar.


So for you, no men from bars and no drug abusers! You felt men who have those kinds of experiences just aren't for you in marriage.

Do see where i'm coming fromray:? I'm just trying to relate it to your own personal standards. I know people who've meet and had drunken ONS but then ended up getting married. But me personally, I wouldn't risk it. Nor would I risk getting involved with somebody who has done certain other things. You essentially said the same thing, so I don't know why we even debated.


----------



## that_girl

I just never talked about the past lovers with new lovers. I dunno. Never bothered me. 

Maybe because I had a past as well? I dunno.

I'm not a drinker...so I wouldn't marry one. I have a sexual past, so I assume most people do. Eh?

Again, I was never really talking to you...just replying to other posts in this thread. Your situation makes perfect sense. But to say (as someone did) that people with a sexual past are more likely to cheat, blah blah, is wrong, imo.

I know that because my friends and I have sexual pasts and we don't cheat. 

I'm sure there are good people at bars. I'm sure there are some good heroin users who are clean. I just didn't want to weed them out. 

Again, my comments were not directed at you. lol. I did say that before..so I don't know why you keep saying we are saying the same thing.  We cleared that up, I thought.


----------



## Goldmember357

more partners and more risky behavior is directly linked towards cheating and an increasing likelihood for divorce that is a fact.


----------



## Thundarr

SimplyAmorous said:


> I don't have a problem spilling it all out for others to judge.....so judge me TAMers.


I've judged you. Whether we agree on a specific point or not, I appreciate the thought process behind your opinions so you've been judged in a good way .


----------



## FalconKing

that_girl said:


> I just never talked about the past lovers with new lovers. I dunno. Never bothered me.
> 
> Maybe because I had a past as well? I dunno.
> 
> I'm not a drinker...so I wouldn't marry one. I have a sexual past, so I assume most people do. Eh?
> 
> Again, I was never really talking to you...just replying to other posts in this thread. Your situation makes perfect sense. But to say (as someone did) that people with a sexual past are more likely to cheat, blah blah, is wrong, imo.
> 
> I know that because my friends and I have sexual pasts and we don't cheat.
> 
> I'm sure there are good people at bars. I'm sure there are some good heroin users who are clean. I just didn't want to weed them out.
> 
> Again, my comments were not directed at you. lol. I did say that before..so I don't know why you keep saying we are saying the same thing.  We cleared that up, I thought.


Do you like to see things from the perspective of others? Or do you feel like if someone says something is not what they want, and it's something you have done, they are talking about you? Does that make you mad? 

I don't think i'm talking in another language. I could go through that post and apply everything you've said to the point I was speaking from. And even point how hypocritical some of those things sound. But since "you were never talking to me" and "you don't know why I said etc.." anything I expand on would probably just feed your annoyance with communicating with me. So I can't say anything to you. That's some nice defense


----------



## Thundarr

that_girl said:


> My mother was married 3 times. Once before my dad and once after my dad. I'm her only child.
> 
> All 3 men were bartenders.
> 
> Coincidence that all her marriages fell to crap? I think not.
> 
> Granted, she had some major issues of her own from her childhood, but...I swore to never date anyone from a bar.


It's very hard not to fall back on what we saw growing up so it's great that you used other people's mistakes to do better rather than mimicing them.


----------



## Thundarr

FalconKing said:


> So for you, no men from bars and no drug abusers! You felt men who have those kinds of experiences just aren't for you in marriage.
> 
> Do see where i'm coming fromray:? I'm just trying to relate it to your own personal standards. I know people who've meet and had drunken ONS but then ended up getting married. But me personally, I wouldn't risk it. Nor would I risk getting involved with somebody who has done certain other things. You essentially said the same thing, so I don't know why we even debated.


Very good connection Falcon. I think we all have our own "no-go"s. It's easy to be offended by other peoples "no-go"s if we feel judged.


----------



## FirstYearDown

SimplyAmorous said:


> No Bill Clinton flashbacks needed with me.... Nope, no oral and no anal....
> 
> . Remember I was the repressed girl who told her husband I thought all men's penis's were "homely"..... I never put my mouth down on him till years after we took our vows...and when he tried to do oral on ME.... I felt so icky about that, I always pushed him away. Obviously I had some "inhibitions" -that these acts were "dirty" swirling in my head...that needed overcame.
> 
> My husband has told me his HOLE is off limits, he has never - nor ever will want anal.
> 
> Oh but wait.... I did put my mouth on a neighbor boy -who was also my 1st kiss... when I was about 13...late one night spending the night at his sisters house.. his room was next to hers... that was the most sexual experimentation I ever had before my husband..... It was quick, like seconds, he did not get off, and I remember feeling very uncomfortable.....I stopped it.
> 
> If that disqualifies me from being a Virgin, I guess anyone can take their stabs of judgement and lay it on me, calling me a hypocrite. I know my husband never looked upon me that way, and this is most important to me....and he knew all about that. I guess I would call myself a "dirty" "tainted" virgin - I would have passed the Virginity Test -that was given years back with the hymen intact.... that is my reasoning.


I didn't say that kissing means you are not a virgin. 

Since I have slept with too many men, I am the last to judge anyone for what they have done sexually. I will, however, judge those who are pretend to be something they are not. Putting your mouth on a boy's penis at age 13=not a virgin. I didn't blow anyone until I was 18 and it was the man I had intercourse with the first time.


----------



## Lon

FYD, everyone's definition of virgin is different, for me my definition of virgin is not having had "sexual intercourse" and that to me pretty much means PIV, or in other words an act of procreation... using my definition oral and anal wouldn't be included, and it actually makes logical sense in my mind to continue to use that definition for certain purposes.

But obviously it doesn't fully make sense to call a sexually promiscuous person who goes around being sodomized or sodomizing a virgin just cause they never had coitus? Or can I? I think I do, I would consider a gay person who has never had coitus with the opposite sex a virgin, simply because I draw the line at PIV otherwise the line is way too blurred for my mind. Where else can you draw the line? external genital contact? Genital to mouth, genital to hand contact? (ie fingers? stroking? what about just touching in which case is a certain context required, such as not in a doctor's office?) what about mutual masterbation with no contact or even intimate nudity? French kissing is more invasive than that, so can you french kiss and still call yourself a virgin?

I will stick with my ridiculous definition that losing virginity requires PIV.


----------



## that_girl

So gay men are virgins?


----------



## FirstYearDown

TG has a very good point.

I draw the line at any genital to mouth contact or anal.

A woman who has put her mouth on anyone's penis or va-jay-jay is not a virgin.

The same goes for a male.


----------



## Thundarr

Lon said:


> FYD, everyone's definition of virgin is different, for me my definition of virgin is not having had "sexual intercourse" and that to me pretty much means PIV, or in other words an act of procreation... using my definition oral and anal wouldn't be included, and it actually makes logical sense in my mind to continue to use that definition for certain purposes.
> 
> But obviously it doesn't fully make sense to call a sexually promiscuous person who goes around being sodomized or sodomizing a virgin just cause they never had coitus? Or can I? I think I do, I would consider a gay person who has never had coitus with the opposite sex a virgin, simply because I draw the line at PIV otherwise the line is way too blurred for my mind. Where else can you draw the line? external genital contact? Genital to mouth, genital to hand contact? (ie fingers? stroking? what about just touching in which case is a certain context required, such as not in a doctor's office?) what about mutual masterbation with no contact or even intimate nudity? French kissing is more invasive than that, so can you french kiss and still call yourself a virgin?
> 
> I will stick with my ridiculous definition that losing virginity requires PIV.


Really deception is the bottom line I think. If you say you are a virgin to make others think you are less promiscuous than you really are then you might as well just lie. It's deception by omission.


----------



## tryingtobebetter

this is clearly a topic which prompts lively reactions so I have hesitated to say anything, asking myself if I can say anything not already said better by others.

Judge not that ye be not judged is a very important precept for me. None of us is perfect. I fully expect, when my time comes, to cry out 'Lord be merciful to me a sinner'. So I judge no one.

But I am a Christian, so count me in the 'traditional' camp. Please do not hold this against me

It occurred to me to broaden the picture by relating something which has stuck with me.

I am friendly with some monks whose monastery I visit from time to time. I do not know how many of you meet monks. These ones are unquestionably some of the finest people you could ever meet. Their goodness is palpable. You can sense when you are with them that their interest is only in your welfare. Their own egos have almost disappeared. Goodness personified.One of them, now aged 95 (and a monk since 1935!) once said to me that he thought the Western world was as though it had fallen under a spell. He is a man of extraordinarily high intellect as well as deeply spiritual so yes a major guide to me. 

He characterised the spell under which he felt we had fallen as one of insatiable appetite for all sorts of things- material wealth, excitement, experiences, travel, sex. In his opinion we will never find what we are looking for until we realise that it is only in God that we can find happiness. The world will never satisfy us.

I hope the connection with the discussion above is reasonably clear. Otherwise I shall have to say 'I trust I have made myself obscure'.


----------



## that_girl

Lesbians would be virgins too then. What the.....

That's why I dont' buy the PIV definition of virginity for these days. Some people don't have a penis to put in the vagina they are having sex with, and visa versa.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> It's very hard not to fall back on what we saw growing up *so it's great that you used other people's mistakes to do better rather than mimicing them*.


:iagree:


Excellent point Thundar.
And I have been trying to say this since that other thread.
Civilizations build on the shoulders of their ancestors. If knowledge , Values and Philosophy are not improved and passed on, the next generation suffers.

Those of us who have made mistakes should recognize where we went wrong , correct it and move on. But our Dharma or Karmic duty is to pass on the CORRECT value system to our offspring so that they don't suffer the same pitfalls. 
Every generation faces new and more difficult challenges.

If I had a daughter, do you think I would really like her to have sexual relations with the type of guys who will do to her like I did those women before I was married?
Absolutely not. I will give her a solid foundation so that even tough she makes mistakes, she is equipped with a solid value system,which like a compass would guide her when things get rough.

The value system which my mother taught me when I was a boy stayed with me. If it were not for that value system I would have NEVER chosen my wife. In fact. my wife was the only girlfriend my mother EVER approved of.
And there were numerous.....
The most touching part of our wedding ceremony for me was when the preacher read my vows,and I said " I do.' I looked at my mother and there were tears running down her face,
We never had a good relationship.I was a rebellious young man. 
From that day our relationship began to heal.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *FirstYearDown said*: Some of your posts have been very condemning and judgemental. I think it is great that you recognized that and apologized for it in another thread.
> 
> My only issue is if you like to pass judgement on others for being more experienced, you cannot justifiably get upset when the tables are turned. I think that is reasonable, isn't it?


 I apologized for my words coming off in a way that offended .....But you know as well as me.... that many people get offended just merely by anothers personal opinion on an issue- even when it was specifically asked for ....we all need to realize in life....others have different beliefs/religions/ cultures/ come from different backgrounds, we don't all see things the same. I think it is most important that one is not a hypocrite personally... showing an outside version of what they are -but concealing an inner ugliness as to exalt themselves. 

I know you don't really know me..but when I was younger, I was dumb enough to openly share all of this with christians who did judge me, I never acted like I was something I was NOT. I am one of those people who go around and outright expose my flaws before others, cause I want to see if they WILL judge me..... and one thing is for sure....some don't disappoint !! I have cried after being so foolish as to do this.... but I genuinelly like to know how others think & where their hearts are at. So I don't always regret it either. So yeah, I open myself up to ridicule many times. 

When others give an opinion, like *tryingtobebetter* for instance -he is a Christian, I don't judge him or think less of him -even though I personally have issues with the faith... if he walks the best he can within his beliefs, he is a very honorable man. And sounds it by his post, by the way. 

I am not standing at a pulpit saying anything I write /offer --is Gospel, am I? So in reality, who gives a rat's a$$. Separate the wheat from the chaff in your own life. 

I don't get offended that others want to have casual sex and ONS's...It's not my life to live....I like porn, I take some heat for that...with those who feel it is all trash & immoral. I could hide it and act like I have conservative morals... but I don't. I speak honestly. 

What can I do about others getting offended by my personal opinions / sexual thresholds / in what I teach to my own children. If something has worked for me & my husband, why wouldn't I want to pass that down to them. I have to sit through reading how prudish we are, no fun, inexperienced, old fashioned, weird, arcaic, santimonious minded, not modern...being told there is no value in my advice ....this isn't always so pleasant to digest.....that we are all washed up, outdated by societies norms. 

To be honest with you 1st Year... I EXPECT this. And yes, I can take it....I am even foolish enough to invite it!! 

Did you miss my thoughts here earlier in this thread -speaking about sexual history....


> *Simplyamorous said*: I really am not someone who expects perfection at all , life is full of Grays.... people are human , we screw up, make bad decisions in a moment, some are more immature than others in their youth.... then they grow up, mature and have MORE conviction than anyone around them against NOT doing what they did !! This is absolutely HUGE!!
> 
> So my aim would be to uncover where their
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> is NOW, where it has traveled.... what they have gleaned along the way in light of their various experiences....or smooth sailing. Most importantly I would want their heartfelt honesty.
> 
> The same values ....absolutely....but that doesn't mean we have to come from the same side of the fence. I believe genuine LOVE can conquer near anything ... including one's past.


 Is this condemning also? 



> *FirstYearDown said*: Putting your mouth on a boy's penis at age 13=not a virgin. I didn't blow anyone until I was 18 and it was the man I had intercourse with the first


 So the fact it was seconds, I didn't Blow, he didn't cum, I was uncomfortable and stopped it -means basically nothing -at the tender age of 13....this reduces me to the same "sexual level" of a willing pleasuring Monica Lewinsky. Ok. I appreciate your answering .



> *Caribbean Man said*: If I had a daughter, do you think I would really like her to have sexual relations with the type of guys who will do to her like I did those women before I was married?
> Absolutely not. I will give her a solid foundation so that even tough she makes mistakes, she is equipped with a solid value system,which like a compass would guide her when things get rough.


 :iagree:


----------



## SA's husband

I can't say that I am glad she did that. but she did not have intercourse which is what I call sex. That was just something we all do when we are young and daring, just a one time thing. She is still my virgin.

Anyway, she was almost scheduled for surgery because her hymen was so tight she couldn't stand the pain. It was a frustrating time for us, but I knew I was her 1st.


----------



## Lon

that_girl said:


> Lesbians would be virgins too then. What the.....
> 
> That's why I dont' buy the PIV definition of virginity for these days. Some people don't have a penis to put in the vagina they are having sex with, and visa versa.


exactly... it's not really a very useful definition... just to me it seems pretty clear from my interpretation, but in reality I personally don't really care if someone is a "virgin" or not, be it my definition or anyone elses, I do think if you need to call yourself a virgin to feel better about yourself and use whatever technical workarounds you can think of you are just deluding yourself. On the other hand, nothing wrong with trying to remain virginal as possible yet still explore sexuality with the opposite sex, I think what it comes down to ultimately is a person's value system, and using virginity as a measure of that value system is somewhat unreliable and shortsighted.

As for me, if I were gay and had never had PIV sex, I think I'd most likely joke (semi-seriously) that I was still a virgin, lol. But that's just me.


----------



## FirstYearDown

*Clarifications.*



SimplyAmorous said:


> I apologized for my words coming off in a way that offended .....But you know as well as me.... that many people get offended just merely by anothers personal opinion on an issue- even when it was specifically asked for ....we all need to realize in life....others have different beliefs/religions/ cultures/ come from different backgrounds, we don't all see things the same. I think it is most important that one is not a hypocrite personally... showing an outside version of what they are -but concealing an inner ugliness as to exalt themselves. My concern was not that your opinion is unpopular. It was that you were assigning unfair and untrue negative traits to those who were not as "pure" as you. Like I said, you apologized for those comments and that was very big of you.
> 
> I know you don't really know me..but when I was younger, I was dumb enough to openly share all of this with christians who did judge me, I never acted like I was something I was NOT. I am one of those people who go around and outright expose my flaws before others, cause I want to see if they WILL judge me..... and one thing is for sure....some don't disappoint !! I have cried after being so foolish as to do this.... but I genuinelly like to know how others think & where their hearts are at. So I don't always regret it either. So yeah, I open myself up to ridicule many times.
> 
> When others give an opinion, like *tryingtobebetter* for instance -he is a Christian, I don't judge him or think less of him -even though I personally have issues with the faith... if he walks the best he can within his beliefs, he is a very honorable man. And sounds it by his post, by the way.
> 
> I am not standing at a pulpit saying anything I write /offer --is Gospel, am I? So in reality, who gives a rat's a$$. Separate the wheat from the chaff in your own life. Well, some people give a "rat's ass" when you are saying one thing and doing another.
> 
> I don't get offended that others want to have casual sex and ONS's...It's not my life to live....I like porn, I take some heat for that...with those who feel it is all trash & immoral. I could hide it and act like I have conservative morals... but I don't. I speak honestly.
> 
> What can I do about others getting offended by my personal opinions / sexual thresholds / in what I teach to my own children. Again, I was not offended by any of those things. If something has worked for me & my husband, why wouldn't I want to pass that down to them. I have to sit through reading how prudish we are, no fun, inexperienced, old fashioned, weird, arcaic, santimonious minded, not modern...being told there is no value in my advice ....this isn't always so pleasant to digest.....that we are all washed up, outdated by societies norms. Eeesh...I am so sorry that people have said such things to you. Those kind of comments are just as bad as some of the words that you apologized for.
> 
> To be honest with you 1st Year... I EXPECT this. And yes, I can take it....I am even foolish enough to invite it!!
> 
> Did you miss my thoughts here earlier in this thread -speaking about sexual history....
> 
> Is this condemning also?
> 
> So the fact it was seconds, I didn't Blow, he didn't cum, I was uncomfortable and stopped it -means basically nothing -at the tender age of 13....this reduces me to the same "sexual level" of a willing pleasuring Monica Lewinsky. Ok. I appreciate your answering . I think that putting your mouth on a penis the age of only 13 is very promiscuous. 13 is much too young for such acts. I did not compare you to Lewinsky; I compared to Bill Clinton who feels that oral is not sex.
> 
> :iagree:


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Clarifications.*



FirstYearDown said:


> I think that putting your mouth on a penis the age of only 13 is very promiscuous


I don't think it would be classified as *very promiscuous* unless it was done more than once. If that was the case then the two, yes only two, times I had sex before I was married would put me in the camp of "very promiscuous". My first time was with a 14 year old boy when I was 15. I never did oral on anyone other than my husband. We have never done anal. But by your definition, FYD, of "very promiscuous, I would fit into that category, and I very much disagree with that! I would agree, however, that 13 and 15 are far too young for such acts. But a one time thing does NOT make someone promiscuous.


----------



## Caribbean Man

*Re: Clarifications.*



Maricha75 said:


> I don't think it would be classified as *very promiscuous* unless it was done more than once. If that was the case then the two, yes only two, times I had sex before I was married would put me in the camp of "very promiscuous". My first time was with a 14 year old boy when I was 15. I never did oral on anyone other than my husband. We have never done anal. But by your definition, FYD, of "very promiscuous, I would fit into that category, and I very much disagree with that! I would agree, however, that 13 and 15 are far too young for such acts. But a one time thing does NOT make someone promiscuous.


:iagree:

My sentiments exactly.
Added to that a 13 year old is way too young to fully understand the implications of their actions. That is why the age of consent is between 16 - 18.
Children would ALWAYS experiment with sex , as part of their development continuum, we all did.

The promiscuous label is really for adults who KNOWINGLY participate in these acts indiscriminately.

*pro·mis·cu·ous*/prəˈmiskyo͞oəs/
Adjective:	
(of a person) Having many sexual relationships, esp. transient ones.
(of sexual behavior or a society) Characterized by such relationships.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

^^^ It was like 5 seconds, I knew it wasn't right, near anxious & scared so I stopped it, never happened again. I don't see him as a bad person either, he was in puberty, we were kids -but I still had my wits about me to stop it. 

My husband's like "ya didn't need to tell them that"...but hey, he knows me all too well. 

You know what , I want to say something here....

I wrestled with this last night, and I DO take offense to being referred to as a Hypocrite. We all have our opinions and this is MINE.... I realize noone gives a rats a$$ about my virginity, so this post is about the meaning of Hypocrisy....

.... *The definition of a Hypocrite *= 

*1.* A person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings...

*2.* A person who engages in the same behaviors he condemns others for...

*3*. A person who professes certain ideals, but fails to live up to them.

Looking at the few varying interpretations of "VIRGIN"... the #1 primary definition is .... "a person who has never had sexual intercourse." ..." A person who has not experienced sexual intercourse." (penis inside vagina) -the fusion... which is always how I viewed it...my feelings/ my beliefs from early on. 

And since I was "*living*" my own personal definition - my conscience in this matter (whether one agrees with my definition or not -still does not erase the fact It was MY definition & it is a common one at that).

I lived being that young Bride.... how utterly embarrassing scheduling an OBGYN appointment to say "Doc, he can't get it in!!" ... 3 months after our wedding....sitting with my feet in the stirrups -just told I had a rigid one alright & I needed a Hymenectomy... I was terrified...."My god - [email protected]#$%".... I even started to cry in front of the man ! I was sent off in tears with a script to get a blood test to rule out pregnancy ... I passed what they refer as the Virginity test  that day, verified and all.

....to learn I was expecting a couple days later by phone - well that was pretty damn crazy! It was like the hand of God stopping that surgery.









So others are free to judge me as they please by their own personal definitions...(as truly our judging is all over a different scale so it seems, even in  Sexual promiscuity .

I would never look down upon another for the actions I did - and deem myself better/ superior /more pure/ santimonous/ or hide my own actions ...because that IS the meaning of a Hypocrite. 

I always try to judge myself as harshly -with the same measuring stick, maybe even more so, than another...taking the plank out of my own eyes, as the good scripture would say.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

I think the general attitude towards women and premarital sex on this forum is very judgemental.

Can I understand that the thought of your beloved being with someone else making you jealous and just unfathomable. Yep. I have been there, each time one of my husband's family members or childhood friends thought it funny to point out one of his past conquests when visiting his hometown. (small town)

But all that keeps screaming out from all this is that men have a need to feel like Superman in the sack. If they find a virgin she is high value because she knows no better than he. It's all about the ego. I was the first to do this. I was a first to do that. She don't know if she likes bigger than me because I am all she knows. EGO - And all this talk of paternity, attacks on a woman's loyalty, character and intelligence because she had sex with others before she found "the one" is really out of line.

We all have our rights to our own set of standards for our potential mates. But to set them in stone can set you up for a life of disappointment and possibly loneliness.

Alot of people love the movie the notebook for it's love story. Can you imagine that story if either one of the characters acted like some of the people on here and passed up the loves of their lives because they had not remained chaste waiting on each other?


----------



## tryingtobebetter

_*Simply Amorous*_

Thank you for your kind words earlier. I try to do the right thing. Too often (usually?) I fail (hence the name).


----------



## Feelingdown

Both me and the wife were virgins when we started going out so can't really talk from experience. But while I agree that knowing history matters I also think it's dangerous to form any solid conclusions about someone from their past. If I had girls throwing themselves at me as a teenager I probably would have slept around a lot just for the fun of it but that doesn't mean I wouldn't value the intamacy of doing it with that someone special, nor would it mean I'm more likely to sleep around once I'm with that person.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

HopelesslyJaded said:


> We all have our rights to our own set of standards for our potential mates. But to set them in stone can set you up for a life of disappointment and possibly loneliness.


 Maybe I am missing it but I don't see anyone setting anything in stone, I have only read a handful of posts where the guy would call it a deal breaker, very very very few & far between. Extremely rare here, but you will find that on christian forums. THis is not at all a christian forum, I see more attacks on that type of lifestyle than applause here -it has bothered me enough to leave here & go there....then they kicked me off .... so I don't know where the H I belong sometimes.



> Alot of people love the movie the notebook for it's love story. Can you imagine that story if either one of the characters acted like some of the people on here and passed up the loves of their lives because they had not remained chaste waiting on each other?


I agree, and that would be a horrible shame, I just dont feel the majority of people do that at all - I wouldn't either... Maybe you missed my 1st 2 posts on this thread HERE.


----------



## Caribbean Man

HopelesslyJaded said:


> I think the general attitude towards women and premarital sex on this forum is very judgemental.
> 
> Can I understand that the thought of your beloved being with someone else making you jealous and just unfathomable. Yep. I have been there, each time one of my husband's family members or childhood friends thought it funny to point out one of his past conquests when visiting his hometown. (small town)
> 
> But all that keeps screaming out from all this is that men have a need to feel like Superman in the sack. If they find a virgin she is high value because she knows no better than he. It's all about the ego. I was the first to do this. I was a first to do that. She don't know if she likes bigger than me because I am all she knows. EGO - And all this talk of paternity, attacks on a woman's loyalty, character and intelligence because she had sex with others before she found "the one" is really out of line.
> 
> We all have our rights to our own set of standards for our potential mates. But to set them in stone can set you up for a life of disappointment and possibly loneliness.
> 
> Alot of people love the movie the notebook for it's love story. Can you imagine that story if either one of the characters acted like some of the people on here and passed up the loves of their lives because they had not remained chaste waiting on each other?



Hope,
Its about fidelity , not ego.
And the only " insurance " a man or woman has against infidelity in marriage is the partner's character.
It is difficult to know if a person speaks the truth , so you only have two indicators to judge them by.

1] Their past actions
2] Their present state of mind

In other words, their character.

A person could have a terrible past , but their present state of mind shows a clear dichotomy between the two.

A person could have a clean past , but their present state of mind also shows a dichotomy between the two.

Or a person could simply adopt a set of values they choose to live by and seek a partner that shares these values , whether their past was bad or clean , so that they have a little area of peace in their relationship.
One thing less to worry about.

Virginity is absolutely not an insurance against infidelity. A person's CHARACTER is to a great extent.


----------



## CandieGirl

SimplyAmorous said:


> How about if we just get this out in the open - shall we. It is very obvious here Candiegirl is speaking about ME... Yes, I'm guilty... I put a STUPID mindless post up with the definitions of SEX vs. MAKING LOVE in that thread
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .... but believe it or not, when I posted that....I wasn't saying or insinuating that those who aren't chaste/pure/pristine/virtuous never "Make Love"...or those who are just falling in love, who are dating ..... No not at all [email protected]#$%^&* Even those who choose to have "screw buddies" are capable of Making Love. Some great movies where it takes that sweet turn!
> 
> Of course people don't have to have a Wedding certificate with a cherry popping to "Make Love".... Do you think I am that much of a FOOL? ..... Don't answer.
> 
> I posted in haste ....I am not a perfect person above speaking out of her azz once in awhile. But I beg to stress here..... was you inside my head...did you KNOW what I was thinking while posting that -- I did go on to EXPLAIN .....after I realized women were up in arms -so I immediately... out of respect & the misunderstanding , DELETED that very post!
> 
> This was my reply to express WHAT I WAS REALLY THINKING when I posted it ....Ya know many things can Be taken wrongly....I do it too. This is WHY I tend to be long winded many times to avoid such things....and well, on that post, I wasn't .
> 
> Here is my repeat explanation >>>
> 
> 
> 
> Does this example offend also? Can Players Make Love sure, but is he when he is PLAYING ?? Am I all wet here ? I do believe he can have a change of heart in the midst of his playing... like that song.... "I fooled around and fell in love".....
> 
> If my example here is not a good one of SEX just being SEX, please give me some.
> 
> I can't persuade any of you to view me outside of what you have already painted in your head due to some of my posts & old fashioned personal opinions.
> 
> I never intentionally meant to hurt anyone with my words ...-even though I can SEE how it could have been taken WRONGLY ....for this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I do not feel I personally deserve those labels (and then some)...for my "difference of opinion" or what I will teach my daughter in regards to men, her emotions, her future and her life.... on some of these matters.
> 
> If you can speak freely how your view have helped you in life...and you are proud of who you are & your choices.... I feel I should have the same freedom on an open forum.
> 
> My views are very very very RARE here... I wanted a virgin male (do you hear anyone else saying [email protected]#$%^).... because for me... the romance of the awkward vulnerability in high emotion is beautiful. As explained here>>
> 
> 
> 
> Just as YOU get your feathers ruffled when you feel others are speaking "down" on those with too much experience....I am on the other side of the fence.... I get mine ruffled when others speak down on those with too little experience -- is that fair ?
> 
> I think many GOOD hearted beautiful people may not BE all that experienced -including men.. it stomps on my husband, it stomps on my son and anyone who does value remaining a virgin. You see, me & my husband throw Large Bonfire bashes for Youth Groups, OK... I know MANY of these types of people...the youth, their parents, I have talked to them, heard their stories as well, I hear how THEY get made fun of in school-because they are different. DO I think that is Cool... No... I do not.
> 
> Do I think many of these people will make fine lifetime partners. ...I DO! So I speak.
> 
> I got a little carried away making a Big hoopla over women commenting on men's D1ck sizes...stupid of me... Yeah... opinionated & out of place.... I agree ! I am known for putting my foot in my mouth at times....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess we all take some offense to things others may NOT. And no, this doesn't mean my Husband is a 4 incher either. He is Mr Average & it fills me pretty snuggly, thank you.
> 
> So in this way.... this is my explaining of myself - on a platter to my wrongdoing.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely...and I agree. Although we never had sexual issues, I was surely "repressed" due to too many religious teachings & feeling certain acts were DIRTY... I can't say it ever hampered our sex life to where either of us even cared ....amazingly. But we surely could have been doing a whole lot more... more adventure / more variety / more of the erotic....I think because we were , from the get go, basking in the emotional connection so strongly.... we simply never gave a damn!
> 
> **** Here is how I feel about the 2 sides of the fence... I feel BOTH can have their issues...but they are very different issues....
> 
> For instance... the inexperienced /virgins ... one is taking a chance the wife is LD, doesn't like sex, not compatible in bed..or even the husband may have sexual hang ups /maybe he is LD -- sure it is an issue --HELL YEAH ...a disaster in fact, a prison if one is against divorce !!!
> 
> Why I feel some experimentation and lots of hands on -should be engaged in -at the very least...then it is common for "Inhibitions"/ some Repression -because of so much restraint in the past... So here is their HOLE to dig themselves out of... their fight for sexual freedom & expression with each other, and hopefully they both enjoy sex !
> 
> Where their advantage may be..they do not have prior experiences to "cloud" this newness. They likely feel "accepted" totally -beings they waited for each other. So it is an "emotional" advantage.
> 
> ON the other side of the fence....This is the RISK I see....(you can take pop shots at me since I really have no idea -never having experienced it).......This is purely from listening to others stories....those who have been hurt over & over in their sexual relationships... many, in order to protect themselves....a downplaying of those emotions begin...a subtle numbing, a not giving oneself fully ..as to protect against another hurt.....
> 
> If a women has had many experiences like this, it takes a hit on her vulnerablity, how can it not... so when she does meet Mr Right... her struggle is NOT sexual experience /repression like the other woman, her struggle may be to fully let loose emotionally, giving into intimacy in all it's beauty .......believing ...."Is this REAL, can I trust him, does he love me for ME totally unequivically "..... because she doesn't want to be burned again, who wants that slice to their heart. Many of these women RUN because they fear intimacy, Men do it also. IT is something NEW and scary as hell for some of them.
> 
> It may even become difficult for her to recognize when her husband is "making love" to her...she may see his intentions as just "sticking it in a hole" -if she has experienced past Bf's like this, this could rear it's ugly head in her psyche..... carrying over into marraige.
> 
> Not all women will have either issues of course, but it seems those are the bigger risks on both sides of the fence.
> 
> Pick me apart.


Wow...you REALLY need to get over yourself!


----------



## CandieGirl

Thundarr said:


> CG. Your story is why I think it's important actually. That's the information that I think is important to get out there before marriage.
> 
> Here is why I think so.
> Two things that are scary are that you had an affair with a married man and that you cheated in one relationship. I would be asking about that and looking for signs that you learned a lesson to not have an affair with a married man ever and that you would never do that again. I would also be looking for signs that you learned a lesson and would not ever have an affair again. Realistically those both happened for reasons. I would ask if I did what your ex did and things got really bad, what would be different this time around. Could you cheat. I would be looking for confirmation that cheating is NEVER okay and if I didn't get that then it wouldn't be worth spending more time on us because I would be unable to commit further.
> 
> It sounds judgemental but that's not it. It's more of me avoiding risk. Really it's just common sense to evaluate risk. That's why banks don't loan money to people with bad credit.


I told him everything pertinent while we were still dating. If he'd dared insinuate that I was some sort of 'risk' it would have gone no further. Strangely enough, I worry more about him, even though his past is more tame compared to mine. Found out after we were married that he'd actually had an EA with the child minder whilst married to wife number one; 'But' he'd told me 'it's not like there was any sex or anything, so it was OK...' And of course, as the story came out further, it had gone PA, as they'd kissed. Once, he admits to, but who knows how much more? Well, he's certainly not going to tell me now. So while I was busy being honest, there he was, hiding important details. People are going to tell you what they want to tell you...


----------



## SimplyAmorous

tryingtobebetter said:


> _*Simply Amorous*_
> 
> Thank you for your kind words earlier. I try to do the right thing. Too often (usually?) I fail (hence the name).


I really liked your story of the Monks ...I've never met a MONK in my life, I have however googled some of their penances -in regards to masterbation and just thought to myself ...OMG -that's crazy! Ya know -who in their right mind would want to be a MONK,







. But ya know, they do have a purpose, as we all do, and who am I to judge them for theirs, sounds you've been inspired by them. 

I know I am guilty of wanting more of some of this >> material wealth, excitement, experiences, travel, sex. Mostly Sex, ha ha -- we can all get carried away...I thought I had a darn addiction not too long ago, it was troubling. 

We live near the Amish... and we always look at them in Awe....because they live such a "simple" existence...who is to say we are genuinelly happier than they. They have much less EGO than us...they have their big families living together into old age, connection, hard work....they wear the same clothes & are not even allowed to get their pictures taken.. I don't understand it all but yet...they find value in their way of life, it is very precious to them. 



> *tryingtobebetter said*: I am friendly with some monks whose monastery I visit from time to time. I do not know how many of you meet monks. These ones are unquestionably some of the finest people you could ever meet. Their goodness is palpable. You can sense when you are with them that their interest is only in your welfare. Their own egos have almost disappeared. Goodness personified.One of them, now aged 95 (and a monk since 1935!) once said to me that he thought the Western world was as though it had fallen under a spell. He is a man of extraordinarily high intellect as well as deeply spiritual so yes a major guide to me.
> 
> He characterised the spell under which he felt we had fallen as one of insatiable appetite for all sorts of things- material wealth, excitement, experiences, travel, sex. In his opinion we will never find what we are looking for until we realise that it is only in God that we can find happiness. The world will never satisfy us.
> 
> I hope the connection with the discussion above is reasonably clear. Otherwise I shall have to say 'I trust I have made myself obscure'.


----------



## FalconKing

HopelesslyJaded said:


> We all have our rights to our own set of standards for our potential mates. But to set them in stone can set you up for a life of disappointment and possibly loneliness.


What`s to be said for sticking to yours guns though, HJ. Isn`t it about being strong character wise and never settling? I gave my time and effort to someone who came from a background that makes me nervous. Look how well that worked out for me. I live in a small town. One of my best friends and I grew up together. Known each other since we were 5 and 6. We would always talk about what we wanted in a relationship and a woman. Things we would never do and things we would never accept. He, like me, didnt have much experience with woman and he liked that. Well some years ago he moved to New Orleans Leaving the small town and going to the big city he has all these beautiful women hitting on him. He likes the attention and now his standards are different. He helped a girl cheat on her boyfriend, he cheated on his girlfriend, he`s hooked up and made out with random girls in bars, ONS, and the women he`s attempted relationships with have all been unstable. We talk about this all time. I always tell him that if he wants a girl to think he is special how can she see that if he is doing what everybody else does. And he drinks way too much. He once considered dating a woman who was just sex friends with one of is buddies because she was nice to him in like the 3 conversations they had:slap: He couldnt stick to his guns and now he since he gets attention from those kind of women he`ll stick with that. It`s easy to say what you can and wont do when you never been tempted. But if you can wait and not settle, that means a lot to me personally. It says a lot to me that a person would go months and years single if they dont find what they want. I wished more people spent more time single. And I dont mean sex friends. I mean like at the house reading a book or practicing a musical instrument Just working on your self awareness and being introspective.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Caribbean Man said:


> Hope,
> Its about fidelity , not ego.
> And the only " insurance " a man or woman has against infidelity in marriage is the partner's character.
> It is difficult to know if a person speaks the truth , so you only have two indicators to judge them by.
> 
> 1] Their past actions
> 2] Their present state of mind
> 
> In other words, their character.
> 
> A person could have a terrible past , but their present state of mind shows a clear dichotomy between the two.
> 
> A person could have a clean past , but their present state of mind also shows a dichotomy between the two.
> 
> Or a person could simply adopt a set of values they choose to live by and seek a partner that shares these values , whether their past was bad or clean , so that they have a little area of peace in their relationship.
> One thing less to worry about.
> 
> Virginity is absolutely not an insurance against infidelity. A person's CHARACTER is to a great extent.


Caribbean Man, you explain things so very well. I feel identicle in your words. 

At the end of the day, this is more important than anything in this world.


----------



## anony2

"pro·mis·cu·ous/prəˈmiskyo͞oəs/
Adjective:	
promiscuous (adj.) 
c.1600, "consisting of a disorderly mixture of people or things," from L. promiscuus "mixed, indiscriminate," from pro- "forward" (see pro-) + miscere "to mix" (see mix (v.)). *Meaning "indiscriminate in sexual relations" first recorded 1900, from promiscuity.*"

Online Etymology Dictionary

In other words, this is a made up word to *discriminate* against people that have had sexual relations with different people.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Funny how a person who takes what does not belong to him is , and has always been known as a THIEF.

Funny how a person who misrepresents the truth in any way is, and has always been known as a LIAR

Funny how a woman who sells sexual favours for money as a means of earning a livelihood is, and has always been known as a prostitute.

Funny how suddenly , we cant even figure out what promiscuity is. 

" Give them an inch they take a yard, give them a yard they'll take a mile..."

Just now they will tell us that cheating is a word invented to discriminate against people who have sex outside their marriage because of marital problems.


----------



## anonim

I require someone to tell me, outside of your own mind, what difference does it make whether a partner screwed everything that wasn't nailed down - or if they were born and raised in a single sex nunnery, if they are faithful to you?


----------



## Entropy3000

anony2 said:


> "pro·mis·cu·ous/prəˈmiskyo͞oəs/
> Adjective:
> promiscuous (adj.)
> c.1600, "consisting of a disorderly mixture of people or things," from L. promiscuus "mixed, indiscriminate," from pro- "forward" (see pro-) + miscere "to mix" (see mix (v.)). *Meaning "indiscriminate in sexual relations" first recorded 1900, from promiscuity.*"
> 
> Online Etymology Dictionary
> 
> In other words, this is a made up word to *discriminate* against people that have had sexual relations with different people.


All words are made up.

Folks with justify anything these days.


----------



## Thundarr

CandieGirl said:


> I told him everything pertinent while we were still dating. If he'd dared insinuate that I was some sort of 'risk' it would have gone no further. Strangely enough, I worry more about him, even though his past is more tame compared to mine. Found out after we were married that he'd actually had an EA with the child minder whilst married to wife number one; 'But' he'd told me 'it's not like there was any sex or anything, so it was OK...' And of course, as the story came out further, it had gone PA, as they'd kissed. Once, he admits to, but who knows how much more? Well, he's certainly not going to tell me now. So while I was busy being honest, there he was, hiding important details. People are going to tell you what they want to tell you...


You said "So while I was busy being honest".
So you held yourself accountable to disclosure that you felt like he needed. I would be very angry at him for not doing the same in return. 

And it's not about telling someone they are a risk and insulting them. If you got the impression it concerned him and he asked questions and you could tell that he's looking security that you were not the type of person to do those things now. To me if you've been dating for years then that's insulting because he should know you by now. On the other hand if you've been dating for months then it seems normal.


----------



## anony2

Funny how a person "who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings... or a person who engages in the same behaviors he condemns others for...and person who professes certain ideals, but fails to live up to" can never see their own hypocrisy.


----------



## anony2

Entropy3000 said:


> All words are made up.
> 
> Folks with justify anything these days.



Yes, all words are made up, which is my point. This word was made up to discriminate against people who have had multiple sexual partners. 

It isn't biblical and even if it was, it also says JUDGE NOT, lest ye be judged.


----------



## anonim

Caribbean Man said:


> Funny how a person who takes what does not belong to him is , and has always been known as a THIEF.
> 
> Funny how a person who misrepresents the truth in any way is, and has always been known as a LIAR
> 
> Funny how a woman who sells sexual favours for money as a means of earning a livelihood is, and has always been known as a prostitute.
> 
> Funny how suddenly , we cant even figure out what promiscuity is.
> 
> " Give them an inch they take a yard, give them a yard they'll take a mile..."
> 
> *Just now they will tell us that cheating is a word invented to discriminate against people who have sex outside their marriage because of marital problems.*


_Psssst....your speculation's showing bro..._

Also promiscuity <> cheating. not even close. Trying to tie those together is just trying to fog the issue.

And just for the record I do not condone cheating.

Ps. 

Funny how someone who sets standards for other people and doesnt adhere to them is, and has always been known as a HYPOCRITE.


----------



## Thundarr

anonim said:


> I require someone to tell me, outside of your own mind, what difference does it make whether a partner screwed everything that wasn't nailed down - or if they were born and raised in a single sex nunnery, if they are faithful to you?


It's about indicators or possible risk.

Banks don't loan money to people with bad credit.
Companies don't hire someone to handle money convicted of theft.
Companies don't hire people at all with felonies.
Insurance is higher if you smoke or drink.
No one invests in stocks with poor history.

It's about risk evaluation in a snapshot of time. The more risk involved, the longer it takes to get comfortable. If someone has a history of short term relationships and cheating each time. The pattern has not changed until you have been with that person for a long and no cheating has occurred.


----------



## anony2

Thundarr said:


> I'm sure this links to the subject matter some how anony. Can you elaborate because it seems off topic but I'm not sure.


See post 165.


----------



## anonim

Thundarr said:


> It's about indicators or possible risk.
> 
> Banks don't loan money to people with bad credit.
> Companies don't hire someone to handle money convicted of theft.
> Companies don't hire people at all with felonies.
> Insurance is higher if you smoke or drink.
> No one invests in stocks with poor history.
> 
> It's about risk evaluation in a snapshot of time. The more risk involved, the longer it takes to get comfortable. If someone has a history of short term relationships and cheating each time. The pattern has not changed until you have been with that person for a long and no cheating has occurred.


this isnt a bank or a company or insurance. its a person. 

For clarification lets make it so that there are twin women. One has is a virgin, on has had sex ### number of times with ## partners.

Neither is mentally flawed, neither has STDs. whats the difference?


----------



## anony2

Thundarr said:


> It's about indicators or possible risk.
> 
> Banks don't loan money to people with bad credit.
> Companies don't hire someone to handle money convicted of theft.
> Companies don't hire people at all with felonies.
> Insurance is higher if you smoke or drink.
> No one invests in stocks with poor history.
> 
> It's about risk evaluation in a snapshot of time. The more risk involved, the longer it takes to get comfortable. If someone has a history of short term relationships and cheating each time. The pattern has not changed until you have been with that person for a long and no cheating has occurred.


So it seems to me that you would want a person that does have some history, otherwise there would be nothing to judge them on.


----------



## anonim

Entropy3000 said:


> All words are made up.
> *Folks with justify anything these days.*


I think you accidentally a word.


----------



## Entropy3000

anonim said:


> I require someone to tell me, outside of your own mind, what difference does it make whether a partner screwed everything that wasn't nailed down - or if they were born and raised in a single sex nunnery, if they are faithful to you?


You do not know ahead of time if they will be faithful to you in either case. But you must choose which one has enough value to you to marry at all.

You offered a fallacy. There are other choices for men that have value.

But this is up to women. If they have a lot of partners they can go find a man who does not care of really likes that.

Any person who screws anything not nailed down has mental problems at the least. I think it is hard enough to have a good marriage without adding this extra drama. 

But you will have to accept that many men find a woman who has had hundreds of partners very low value compared to those that do not. No one wants a wife who has low self respect.


----------



## anony2

Entropy3000 said:


> You do not know ahead of time if they will be faithful to you in either case. But you must choose which one has enough value to you to marry at all.
> 
> You offered a fallacy. There are other choices for men that have value.
> 
> But this is up to women. If they have a lot of partners they can go find a man who does not care of really likes that.
> 
> Any person who screws anything not nailed down has mental problems at the least. I think it is hard enough to have a good marriage without adding this extra drama.
> 
> But you will have to accept that many men find a woman who has had hundreds of partners very low value compared to those that do not. No one wants a wife who has low self respect.


Why do you presume that if a woman has had multiple sex partners that she has low self respect?

Does this same standard apply to men?


----------



## Entropy3000

anony2 said:


> So it seems to me that you would want a person that does have some history, otherwise there would be nothing to judge them on.


This is partly why most folks marry a little later in life.

A persons history matters. Leaving out sexual history is beyond absurd as sex and fidelity are so important to a marriage but even more than these it is about value, choices, character and compatibility.

Why this is hard to undertand is the real mystery.

But again peopler can care about whatever they want and the rest of the word will indeed having to accept this.


----------



## Thundarr

anonim said:


> this isnt a bank or a company or insurance. its a person.
> 
> For clarification lets make it so that there are twin women. One has is a virgin, on has had sex ### number of times with ## partners.
> 
> Neither is mentally flawed, neither has STDs. whats the difference?


Actually it's a concept of self preservation and risk assessment. It's part of survival of the fitest.


----------



## Entropy3000

anony2 said:


> Why do you presume that if a woman has had multiple sex partners that she has low self respect?
> 
> Does this same standard apply to men?


If she respected herself she would not screw anything not nailed down. Sorry that is just gross. That has extreme low value.

I would never marry a man. If a woman wants a man with a lot of partners good for her. I think that is stupid but I do not deny them that right. Preselection at its finest perhaps.. But men are not women. If they do not value a woman who sleeps around then they do not.

Sorry there is absolutely nothing appealing about a woman who has had sex with a large number of men. Such a life style speaks volumes.


----------



## FalconKing

anonim said:


> _Psssst....your speculation's showing bro..._
> 
> Also promiscuity <> cheating. not even close. Trying to tie those together is just trying to fog the issue.
> 
> And just for the record I do not condone cheating.
> 
> Ps.
> 
> Funny how someone who sets standards for other people and doesnt adhere to them is, and has always been known as a HYPOCRITE.


You are trying to fog the issue yourself by trying to make everything sound black and white. 

And hypocrites come from both sides. Anybody who wants something from somebody but doesnt expect to give the same thing is a hypocrite. 

There are some people who dont have high numbers and dont want somebody that does. You guys are throwing that word around way too much.


----------



## Thundarr

anony2 said:


> So it seems to me that you would want a person that does have some history, otherwise there would be nothing to judge them on.


Glad you asked. No what I want is "no-risk" but we know that's not possible. The next best thing is low risk and after that moderate risk and so on.

I completely believe that people's past does not say who they are but it does say a lot about who they used to be. My wife's past was checkered and we got through it fine. I didn't offend or insult her or judge her so I'm not a hard core guy. But I was aware of her past so yea I was not blind if any red flags popped up that could indicate problems.

We dated seven years and trust me, her past meant ZERO to me at that point when we got married.


----------



## Thundarr

anony2 said:


> Why do you presume that if a woman has had multiple sex partners that she has low self respect?
> 
> Does this same standard apply to men?


He said hundreds of partners. Not multiple. Let's not change the context.


----------



## anonim

Entropy3000 said:


> You do not know ahead of time if they will be faithful to you in either case. But you must choose which one has enough value to you to marry at all.Agree. People use the virginity/promiscuity thing as a strategy to make this determination, when they would be better served measuring the judgement and values of their partner instead.
> 
> You offered a fallacy. Its not enough to say i'm offering a fallacy, say which fallacy I am 'offering'. There are other choices for men that have value. Are you saying that some men value different things? or that some men have value and some dont?
> 
> But this is up to women. If they have a lot of partners they can go find a man who does not care of really likes that.Agree. Although it doesn't apply specifically to women.
> 
> Any person who screws anything not nailed down has mental problems at the least. I was being figurative, not literal but you have a point. It might be truer to say has sex when they want to with who they want to instead. I think it is hard enough to have a good marriage without adding this extra drama. I dont mean that a person would be doing this inside marriage, only as a past.
> 
> But you will have to accept that many men find a woman who has had hundreds of partners very low value compared to those that do not. No one wants a wife who has low self respect.and no woman (or man) wants a partner who doesnt respect them. especially about things that arent really any of their business.


----------



## that_girl

I'm just happy I didn't date people with such notions in their head.

With my husband, we talked about cheating, I told him the instance 10 years prior that I left an abusive relationship and had a "savior" on the other side. Fine. I hadn't cheated after that. He told me of a time he 'cheated' in HS (duh. I didn't even care about HS when I was 31)...he cheated by not calling a girl for 3 weeks,and then hooking up with someone else. Whatever.

I appreciate that he and I just started our OWN relationship without bringing up the past more than about 2 times. We simply didn't care. He took me around his friends on the 3rd date and when he'd walk away to get a drink or something, they'd all lean in and tell me what a great guy he was  How honest and kind he was (then they shared some stories about his 'morals'-- they were making fun of him because he wouldn't go to strip clubs, etc--- but i thought it was sweet). I didn't have to dig into my husband's past, I just had to observe and meet his friends and watch how he treated others. 
My ex was a ladies' man.  When he walked away, his friends asked me wtf I was doing with him because I seemed like a "nice girl". lol. Funny because my ex was HORRIBLE in bed....so much for being a ladies' man. Ew.

What happened on just getting to know someone (that included who they hang out with-- the whole, birds of a feather concept). Can't ya'll read the vibes that people put out? That "off" feeling when you are around someone who is a little "off"? Maybe not everyone can do that. I feel it all the time and sometimes I would still date the person at my own peril.

When I had my EA and left my ex, he was my 2nd lover. I didn't even sleep with my EA, although we dated for 9 months after I left. I didn't sleep with him because it would have been too much. I was already emotionally fried. But yet, I was a cheater...a cheater to be judged! lol.

I remember years later telling my ex that I never slept with my EA. He was shocked! Assumed I had, as most people assumed we had. Why my sexlife is anyone's business--- oh well. My ex seemed relieved though. LOL! relieved that I didn't have sex with my EA. Sad that he cared more about the sex than the love. I loved my EA. We all met at the same time...been friends for years. I got pregnant by ex...didn't love him. Just odd to me. Oh well. water under the bridge


----------



## 2ntnuf

My wife had more partners than me. It was a concern, but not a marriage breaker. I was more concerned with whether or not she was capable of loving. I thought it might cloud her ability to really love and be in an open and honest relationship. In my opinion, it did.


----------



## anonim

FalconKing said:


> You are trying to fog the issue yourself by trying to make everything sound black and white.
> 
> And hypocrites come from both sides. Anybody who wants something from somebody but doesnt expect to give the same thing is a hypocrite.
> 
> There are some people who dont have high numbers and dont want somebody that does. You guys are throwing that word around way too much.


so you mean promiscuity = cheating then?


----------



## Thundarr

anonim said:


> Agree. People use the virginity/promiscuity thing as a strategy to make this determination, when they would be better served measuring the judgement and values of their partner instead.


Actually people weigh in promiscuity when determining someone's judgement and values.


----------



## anonim

Thundarr said:


> Glad you asked. No what I want is "no-risk" but we know that's not possible. The next best thing is low risk and after that moderate risk and so on.
> 
> I completely believe that people's past does not say who they are but it does say a lot about who they used to be. My wife's past was checkered and we got through it fine. I didn't offend or insult her or judge her so I'm not a hard core guy. But I was aware of her past so yea I was not blind if any red flags popped up that could indicate problems.
> 
> We dated seven years and trust me, *her past meant ZERO to me at that point when we got married.*


curios; what does it mean to you _now_?


----------



## 2ntnuf

I felt she had sex just for the physical relief, not for the emotional bond. I believe I was right, but may never know for sure. She never told me what love meant to her.


----------



## Thundarr

that_girl said:


> I'm just happy I didn't date people with such notions in their head.


Did you read their minds? There is more extreme and less extreme but everyone looks at the other person's past. Sometimes the number of partners is not what they look at.


----------



## anonim

Thundarr said:


> Actually people weigh in promiscuity when determining someone's judgement and values.


i agree, but they often dont take into account if the person made good judgements with it.


----------



## FalconKing

anonim said:


> so you mean promiscuity = cheating then?


if you are in a relationship, it`s cheating.

if you are not, I still dont want to be in a relationship with you:yawn2:


----------



## that_girl

Thundarr said:


> Did you read their minds?


Well, we never really talked about the past. I dated some good guys and had fun (no sex) and the past wasn't brought up. The things that didn't work out were probably that I wasn't sleeping with them :rofl: But I was dating! Looking for my true love  Well, i was...when I turned 30, I gave myself a year to find "the one". CHEESY! However, I did meet my husband at the end of that year.  I just had been dating people to date them. See if there was a click...

I guess if it went beyond that, maybe there could have been 'the talk' about numbers. I could have told them I was a BIG HO for about a year  but it was just something i had to get out of my system...LIKE MOST MEN DO. Gawd.

But if I was on a date...even until the 5th date or longer, and some guy started asking about my past lovers, I would have excused myself. Who wants to talk about past lovers? I surely don't need the mind images of what my date has done with his exes. Ew.


----------



## anonim

I have a theory - maybe the people that want virginal wives are afraid of being teh suck in bed, and want a partner that cant tell the difference? what do you all think?


----------



## FalconKing

Thundarr said:


> Did you read their minds? There is more extreme and less extreme but everyone looks at the other person's past. Sometimes the number of partners is not what they look at.


Maybe they look at drug abuse or if they go to bars


----------



## 2ntnuf

I think there is a way to tell someone you care about, they suck in bed without harming them. To tell you the truth, my wife, who had more partners than me, wasn't the best I had and I have only had a few.


----------



## FalconKing

anonim said:


> I have a theory - maybe the people that want virginal wives are afraid of being teh suck in bed, and want a partner that cant tell the difference? what do you all think?


I think the posters who posted about virginal wives were also virgins when they married them. Please try to read everything people say.


----------



## that_girl

Thundarr said:


> Did you read their minds? There is more extreme and less extreme but everyone looks at the other person's past. Sometimes the number of partners is not what they look at.


Oooh you edited it!! naughty!

People could have looked at my past all they wanted. I don't have anything to hide. I was 30 and 31 when I REALLY started dating people instead of being tied to bad relationships for years. So if they judged me on my past and moved on or didn't call, i really didn't take it personally. NEXT! :rofl: Like I said, I was on a mission to find "the one" at that point in my life...wasn't going to settle for 'maybe' or 'good enough'. That's what I had been fighting with all my life! 
But...I'm weird. Not everyone does that. I guess I'm a romantic at heart. Who knows. I know I married someone who saw everything of my past and then told me he was so proud of the person I became, despite some shet in my past. 

So....BE PICKY when dating. If you don't wanna date a ho, then don't. But don't tell her that :rofl: dear god no. "I can't date you because you're a big ho." No. But I'm sure y'all have more cooth than that.


----------



## Thundarr

anonim said:


> curios; what does it mean to you _now_?


Now. It's not a problem in any way if that's what you're asking. To me it's more evidence that she loves me because she changed her habit and lifestyle for me and I feel greatful for that. Most of the single party crowd she hung around are now older snapshots of themselves back then getting nowhere. She got out of that lifestyle and has been an amazing wife for sixteen years.

It bothers her though. She wishes she could go back and say "WTF are you doing" to herself. Not just for the number of partners but for dealing with abuse and treating a few people badly and just having no respect for herself or anyone else.


----------



## that_girl

2ntnuf said:


> I think there is a way to tell someone you care about, they suck in bed without harming them. To tell you the truth, my wife, who had more partners than me, wasn't the best I had and I have only had a few.


Yea. My ex was supposedly a "ladies' man" and he was my 2nd lover..and even I knew bad sex. Oh wow. He was not good in bed.


----------



## anonim

FalconKing said:


> I think the posters who posted about virginal wives were also virgins when they married them. Please try to read everything people say.


i do, even going back to other threads. please try not to be condescending.


----------



## 2ntnuf

For me, it was the total package. I didn't have to have the best in bed. I didn't have to have the most beautiful. I didn't have to have the best of everything, but a combination of these which creates that well rounded person. No one is perfect. These things all have to be taken into account and I have to determine if she really wants me. If she doesn't want me, what is the difference what she or I have done? If we know what each other has done, we can make an informed decision about proceeding with a serious relationship. If we don't know, we are setting ourselves up for surprises later. Just my two cents.


----------



## that_girl

Yea. I hear ya. I mostly wanted a man who was HD, like myself. It mattered TO ME. I had been with LD men forever....and dammit, I wanted a HD man. Found one.


----------



## Caribbean Man

anonim said:


> _Psssst....your speculation's showing bro..._
> 
> Also promiscuity <> cheating. not even close. Trying to tie those together is just trying to fog the issue.
> 
> And just for the record I do not condone cheating.
> 
> Ps.
> 
> Funny how someone who sets standards for other people and doesnt adhere to them is, and has always been known as a HYPOCRITE.



"......A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand......"
Bertrand Russell


----------



## Thundarr

that_girl said:


> Well, we never really talked about the past. I dated some good guys and had fun (no sex) and the past wasn't brought up. The things that didn't work out were probably that I wasn't sleeping with them :rofl: But I was dating! Looking for my true love  Well, i was...when I turned 30, I gave myself a year to find "the one". CHEESY! However, I did meet my husband at the end of that year.  I just had been dating people to date them. See if there was a click...
> 
> I guess if it went beyond that, maybe there could have been 'the talk' about numbers. I could have told them I was a BIG HO for about a year  but it was just something i had to get out of my system...LIKE MOST MEN DO. Gawd.
> 
> But if I was on a date...even until the 5th date or longer, and some guy started asking about my past lovers, I would have excused myself. Who wants to talk about past lovers? I surely don't need the mind images of what my date has done with his exes. Ew.


We come from different angles on this but I think we end up at almost the same place. By the way your lucky to find someone while looking. Usually it's when you stop looking is when "the one" shows up.


----------



## Thundarr

that_girl said:


> Oooh you edited it!! naughty!
> 
> People could have looked at my past all they wanted. I don't have anything to hide. I was 30 and 31 when I REALLY started dating people instead of being tied to bad relationships for years. So if they judged me on my past and moved on or didn't call, i really didn't take it personally. NEXT! :rofl: Like I said, I was on a mission to find "the one" at that point in my life...wasn't going to settle for 'maybe' or 'good enough'. That's what I had been fighting with all my life!
> But...I'm weird. Not everyone does that. I guess I'm a romantic at heart. Who knows. I know I married someone who saw everything of my past and then told me he was so proud of the person I became, despite some shet in my past.
> 
> So....BE PICKY when dating. If you don't wanna date a ho, then don't. But don't tell her that :rofl: dear god no. "I can't date you because you're a big ho." No. But I'm sure y'all have more cooth than that.


Yes you should always wait about one minute before quoting me . Happy fingers you know.


----------



## FalconKing

anonim said:


> I have a theory - maybe the people that want virginal wives are afraid of being teh suck in bed, and want a partner that cant tell the difference? what do you all think?


How can you make post like this and then have the nerve to be offended by the tone in my response.

What`s that word everyones throwing around here:scratchhead:?


----------



## anony2

Caribbean Man said:


> "......A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand......"
> Bertrand Russell


"Projection bias: a psychological defense mechanism where a person subconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, usually to other people. Thus, projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others originate those feelings."

Psychological projection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## 2ntnuf

that_girl said:


> Yea. I hear ya. I mostly wanted a man who was HD, like myself. It mattered TO ME. I had been with LD men forever....and dammit, I wanted a HD man. Found one.


I think it is most important that I find the person who is happy with me and I with her. I am happy to read you have done that. My hope, wish, prayer is that everyone on here does the same. There are too many unhappy people. It is very sad. 

Something I've noticed is that it seems, in many of these threads, communication is the key. Knowing what I want and expressing that to a potential life partner makes all the difference. So many of us are too afraid we will be judged, me included, that we don't tell our plp what we want and need. Seems to me this would make life so much simpler.


----------



## Thundarr

anony2 said:


> "Projection bias: a psychological defense mechanism where a person subconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, usually to other people. Thus, projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others originate those feelings."
> 
> Psychological projection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Hmm. I think CM is intelligent in case you are saying only he thinks that.


----------



## anonim

Thundarr said:


> Now. It's not a problem in any way if that's what you're asking. To me it's more evidence that she loves me because she changed her habit and lifestyle for me and I feel greatful for that. Most of the single party crowd she hung around are now older snapshots of themselves back then getting nowhere. She got out of that lifestyle and has been an amazing wife for sixteen years.
> *
> It bothers her though. She wishes she could go back and say "WTF are you doing" to herself. Not just for the number of partners but for dealing with abuse and treating a few people badly and just having no respect for herself or anyone else.*


I think that's how we learn though. Kudos to her and you.


----------



## anony2

Thundarr said:


> Hmm. I think CM is intelligent in case you are saying only he thinks that.


No, that wasn't what I was saying at all.


----------



## anonim

Caribbean Man said:


> "......A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand......"
> Bertrand Russell


A clever man could make up his own sayings...


----------



## Entropy3000

Agree. People use the virginity/promiscuity thing as a strategy to make this determination, when they would be better served measuring the judgement and values of their partner instead.

*You do not have to choose. Another fallacy. Maybe other people cannot take the aggregate of information and process many seemingly contradictory things inot a choice. But I think it would be wrong to assume others cannot process information. Yes some folks are challenged. As you have seen me emphasize that sexual history is one part of a persons decision. But be aware that if a decision is not obvious to one they should pass. A better choice will be found with patience. I honesty do not have such a low view of women. I think there are plenty of quality women out there. One does not have to settle. The virginity/promiscuity thing as you put is not something to dismiss. If it matters to someone it matters. It obviously does not matter to you. You have never seen me post about virginity. Life does not exist in these extremes.*

You offered a fallacy. Its not enough to say i'm offering a fallacy, say which fallacy I am 'offering'. There are other choices for men that have value. Are you saying that some men value different things? or that some men have value and some dont?

*The fallacy you offered was between two absurd extremes. You did not offer a woman with a reasonable number of LTR partners. Or anything else im between. By definition this is a fallacy.*

But this is up to women. If they have a lot of partners they can go find a man who does not care of really likes that.Agree. Although it doesn't apply specifically to women.

*Let the women weigh in on what they want in a man. *

Any person who screws anything not nailed down has mental problems at the least. I was being figurative, not literal but you have a point. It might be truer to say has sex when they want to with who they want to instead. I think it is hard enough to have a good marriage without adding this extra drama. I dont mean that a person would be doing this inside marriage, only as a past.

But you will have to accept that many men find a woman who has had hundreds of partners very low value compared to those that do not. No one wants a wife who has low self respect.and no woman (or man) wants a partner who doesnt respect them. especially about things that arent really any of their business.

*Anything and everything about a potential partner is ones business if they choose so. Whether it be their sexual history or use of drugs or alcohol or education on and on and on. I also think what a person chooses to hide is important. It is also important as what a person thinks should be private. The whole conversation would be a huge red flag. Someone saying my sexual history is none of your business would immediatly be providing excellent information as it pertained to their willingness to be a partner.*


----------



## anonim

Thundarr said:


> Hmm. I think CM is intelligent in case you are saying only he thinks that.


I'm gonna have to disagree.


----------



## Entropy3000

2ntnuf said:


> For me, it was the total package. I didn't have to have the best in bed. I didn't have to have the most beautiful. I didn't have to have the best of everything, but a combination of these which creates that well rounded person. No one is perfect. These things all have to be taken into account and I have to determine if she really wants me. If she doesn't want me, what is the difference what she or I have done? If we know what each other has done, we can make an informed decision about proceeding with a serious relationship. If we don't know, we are setting ourselves up for surprises later. Just my two cents.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Entropy3000

anonim said:


> I'm gonna have to disagree.


I find him quite intelligent. But more importantly everything he has posted tells me he is a man of integrity and has something of value to share.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

FalconKing said:


> I think the posters who posted about virginal wives were also virgins when they married them. Please try to read everything people say.


I think it's more along the lines of the posters talking about virginal husbands were virgins when they married them. 
I think the majority of these men talking/wanting virginal (high value) women would have ben considered low value by their own standards when married.


----------



## Entropy3000

HopelesslyJaded said:


> I think it's more along the lines of the posters talking about virginal husbands were virgins when they married them.
> I think the majority of these men talking/wanting virginal (high value) women would have ben considered low value by their own standards when married.


I agree. But this assumes that men and women make the same choices. Do they?

Do most womwn look for men with a low number? If so they are not very outspoken. Personally I think compatibility is important. Times are changing. Again I think if we are talking about folks having single digit numbers are roughtly compatible with each other. Maybe a subgroup of a handful. 

So to state the obvious a man who has been with a 1000 women wanting a virgin is absurd. Women have every right to care.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Entropy3000 said:


> I agree. But this assumes that men and women make the same choices. Do they?


Hmmmm. Love to read a response. Got me thinking.


----------



## FalconKing

HopelesslyJaded said:


> I think it's more along the lines of the posters talking about virginal husbands were virgins when they married them.
> I think the majority of these men talking/wanting virginal (high value) women would have ben considered low value by their own standards when married.


I really dont think so many guys want virgins. Just someone who looks at sex as being for a commited relationship.


----------



## Entropy3000

2ntnuf said:


> Hmmmm. Love to read a response. Got me thinking.


Rather than bash men who look for what they see as value why do't those who complain about men hold them accountable too?


----------



## Entropy3000

FalconKing said:


> I really dont think so many guys want virgins. Just someone who looks at sex as being for a commited relationship.


Agreed.

For some reason there are those with an agenda that keep trying to make this about virginity and having a larger number of partners while the world resides in between for most of us.

There is also a difference between what someone did when they were 18 and what they are doing at 35.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

I didn't think about that at all to be honest. High or low. I looked for a connection. How he treated me. Players usually have tells that come out in how they treat you. Honestly the numbers conversation I only had with one man and I'm married to him. But that came months into the relationship and it want part of me making checks on a list. It was getting to know him.

I had one hypocritical hope for my future husband and that was for him not to already have children. It wasn't something that would have changed my mind about someone, just something I hoped for. Mainly because I knew that me having a child already was going to be difficult enough. Both having children and blending would be even more of a strain on a new relationship. Exes and such. I got lucky and got what I hoped for. But if I had labeled all single men who already had a child low value. What ahd hypocrite would I have been.


----------



## Maricha75

HopelesslyJaded said:


> I think it's more along the lines of the posters talking about virginal husbands were virgins when they married them.
> I think the majority of these men talking/wanting virginal (high value) women would have ben considered low value by their own standards when married.


My husband was a virgin when we met. I am, and always have been, his only sexual partner...and that is all sex, not just vaginal penetration. I had two previous partners. My first, I was 15. My second, I was 19. I met my husband when I was 23. Those previous two partners, I had sex once with each. My virginal husband was better than the guy I had sex with first (also a virgin) AND the 2nd guy (not a virgin). I don't consider my husband to be low value by any means.If anything, I wish I had NOT had sex with anyone before him.


And something that anonim said earlier about "no woman (or man) wants a partner who doesnt respect them. especially about things that arent really any of their business.".... At what point is something your partner's business? IMO, had my husband had many partners, it WOULD have been my business. Just as my sexual history is his business. But, this is something that HE and I agree on, and that's all that matters. Really, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what everyone else thinks. All that matters is what works for you and your own partner.


----------



## Thundarr

HopelesslyJaded said:


> I think it's more along the lines of the posters talking about virginal husbands were virgins when they married them.
> I think the majority of these men talking/wanting virginal (high value) women would have ben considered low value by their own standards when married.


Most of us are saying sexual past matters and that's all. There's no devious plot to beat down women who are not virgins. Lot's of historical things matter and this is just one little part of it. History of irresponsible things in general. Many of us (men) think a few partners over time is very normal. Many of us think people change for the better. Men are judge equally by women for being poor providers or unstable in their past. I'm fine with that. It's how it should be. I would also like a chance to prove myself if I'm doing better now just like a woman with a past should have that chance over time.

I personally don't see where the word virgin should be in this topic any more than prostitute should. They are both extremes which most of us are not talking about at all.

I'm a 44 man and a virgin near my age would scare the crap out of me.

Again though, men are valuable by women based on different criteria but they do it just the same.


----------



## Thundarr

Entropy3000 said:


> Again I think if we are talking about folks having single digit numbers are roughtly compatible with each other. Maybe a subgroup of a handful.


That's my thought as well. Everyone take offense I don't think it's offensive to say history is something to notice and something two people should know about each other.


----------



## 2ntnuf

woops a little late on the draw :iagree: with Thundarr post #228


----------



## Thundarr

HopelesslyJaded said:


> I didn't think about that at all to be honest. High or low. I looked for a connection. How he treated me. Players usually have tells that come out in how they treat you. Honestly the numbers conversation I only had with one man and I'm married to him. But that came months into the relationship and it want part of me making checks on a list. It was getting to know him.


Why did you tell him? If you did not feel comfortable telling him about your past would you have felt comfortable committing to him? To me your relationship got stronger the moment that you guys shared your pasts with each other.


----------



## that_girl

Thundarr said:


> We come from different angles on this but I think we end up at almost the same place. By the way your lucky to find someone while looking. Usually it's when you stop looking is when "the one" shows up.


Oh, well, he was my service writer at the dealership when my car took a big poop (it was only a year old so they worked on it for a while...). lol. I wasn't dating him...i just met him through my car.  He was so hot. omg... I was actually "seeing' someone when I met my husband. I had to break it off with that guy because I knew I wanted my husband.


----------



## Thundarr

that_girl said:


> Oh, well, he was my service writer at the dealership when my car took a big poop (it was only a year old so they worked on it for a while...). lol. I wasn't dating him...i just met him through my car.  He was so hot. omg... I was actually "seeing' someone when I met my husband. I had to break it off with that guy because I knew I wanted my husband.


So you made lemonade with your lemon car.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

anonim said:


> I have a theory - maybe the people that want virginal wives are afraid of being teh suck in bed, and want a partner that cant tell the difference? what do you all think?


For me & mine, it had nothing ever so to do with this, in fact he told me when we met, he wasn't even thinking about sex at all. It is more the romance of only being with one person...an emotional forever bond... we are both what I term the "Hopeless Romantic" type. It is sappy, it is sensitive, it is emotional and the thrill of being with someone you deeply love in all of that awkwardness - in learning together - is something we both see as beautiful. 

This I speak from the heart. My husband has told me -he is not the type who could sleep with someone he doesn't love, it's just not in him. I wanted a man who felt like that.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

Thundarr said:


> Why did you tell him? If you did not feel comfortable telling him about your past would you have felt comfortable committing to him? To me your relationship got stronger the moment that you guys shared your pasts with each other.


I would have told it to any man that I dated. I may have regretted some of my past but not ashamed of it. I've always been an open book to those who care to ask. 

I just don't think I had a man who cared enough to get to know me until him. It's been several years since that conversation but I don't recall it feeling like a serious one. 

My oldest son was 2 when I met my husband. Now that was the first thing I put out there when a guy showed interest. That took care of 90% of them right there. In fact I remember saying it to my husband the day we met and he didn't flinch. Funny thing about that is he confessed to me later that children had been one of his "deal breakers" until he met me. Lol


----------



## anonim

HopelesslyJaded said:


> I think it's more along the lines of the posters talking about virginal husbands were virgins when they married them.
> I think the majority of these men talking/wanting virginal (high value) women would have ben considered low value by their own standards when married.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:I agree!
And then they dont understand and get offended when they are labelled hypocrites:scratchhead: 

There is no intrinsic or objective 'value' to a person, just ones which are assigned to them by other people... ...so, I deem people that hold other people to standards they themselves don't meet, to be of the lowest value.


----------



## anonim

HopelesslyJaded said:


> I would have told it to any man that I dated. I may have regretted some of my past but not ashamed of it. I've always been an open book to those who care to ask.
> 
> I just don't think I had a man who cared enough to get to know me until him. It's been several years since that conversation but I don't recall it feeling like a serious one.
> 
> My oldest son was 2 when I met my husband. Now that was the first thing I put out there when a guy showed interest. That took care of 90% of them right there. In fact I remember saying it to my husband the day we met and he didn't flinch. Funny thing about that is he confessed to me later that children had been one of his "deal breakers" until he met me. Lol


Do you ever find that people (or kind of people) try or have tried to make you feel ashamed of your past despite how you yourself feel about it?


----------



## anonim

Maricha75 said:


> *Extration - *
> 
> And something that anonim said earlier about "no woman (or man) wants a partner who doesnt respect them. especially about things that arent really any of their business.".... At what point is something your partner's business?



What I mean is if I sleep with 30 people by the time I'm 25 and some people disapprove, judge and look down on me for doing so, the preselect themselves out from a partner because how many people I've been with is really none of their business and has no bearing on my personal/mental/emotional/social health, and being with such a person would be detrimental to such healths.

TL;DR people who judge other people on things that dont really affect them, preselect themselves out.


----------



## Thundarr

HopelesslyJaded said:


> I would have told it to any man that I dated. I may have regretted some of my past but not ashamed of it. I've always been an open book to those who care to ask.
> 
> I just don't think I had a man who cared enough to get to know me until him. It's been several years since that conversation but I don't recall it feeling like a serious one.
> 
> My oldest son was 2 when I met my husband. Now that was the first thing I put out there when a guy showed interest. That took care of 90% of them right there. In fact I remember saying it to my husband the day we met and he didn't flinch. Funny thing about that is he confessed to me later that children had been one of his "deal breakers" until he met me. Lol


Well you don't sound hopelessly jaded now. That's good.


----------



## Thundarr

anonim said:


> What I mean is if I sleep with 30 people by the time I'm 25 and some people disapprove, judge and look down on me for doing so, the preselect themselves out from a partner because how many people I've been with is really none of their business and has no bearing on my personal/mental/emotional/social health, and being with such a person would be detrimental to such healths.
> 
> TL;DR people who judge other people on things that dont really affect them, preselect themselves out.


Really we judge everyone on everything but you're assuming if they ask then they may look down on you for it. I agree if they do that then it's a sign that you're not compatible with each other. Once it's serious I think both should know about each other's past and have the opportunity to accept it or not accept it so that's what I did. Now I'm talking about when it gets serious and thoughts of future together is there.

If you think it's none of their business then you have every right to tell them "it's none of your business". To me when my wife and I became serious I asked about her past and told her about mine. Had she told me "it was none of my business" then it would mean we were not serious.

Even "it's none of your business" is better than lying about it like so many do.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

Thundarr said:


> Well you don't sound hopelessly jaded now. That's good.


When I reminisce of the past I tend to put myself in the mindset I was in that moment.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

anonim said:


> Do you ever find that people (or kind of people) try or have tried to make you feel ashamed of your past despite how you yourself feel about it?


In general no. Once I moved out of my small hometown most of that stopped. The people who felt I should be ashamed must have kept it to themselves.
After being on here a little while it leads me to believe that I am possibly quietly judged severely on my past by many. 
I am known to be depressed over my physical appearance and recently my marriage but never before this forum would "low value"come to mind.
I got to wonder if that phrase comes across as horrible to others as it does me.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> Really we judge everyone on everything but you're assuming if they ask then they may look down on you for it. I agree if they do that then it's a sign that you're not compatible with each other. Once it's serious I think both should know about each other's past and have the opportunity to accept it or not accept it so that's what I did. Now I'm talking about when it gets serious and thoughts of future together is there.
> 
> If you think it's none of their business then you have every right to tell them "it's none of your business". * To me when my wife and I became serious I asked about her past and told her about mine. Had she told me "it was none of my business" then it would mean we were not serious.*
> 
> *Even "it's none of your business" is better than lying about it like so many do.*


Will you sign a contract without doing " due diligence " about the company / partner you are about to do business with?

Will you sign a contract not knowing if they have the capacity to supply what they promise to supply and deliver?

Which billion dollar oil company drills for oil without first doing its geotechnical surveys?

It is every person's RIGHT TO SELECT WHAT TYPE OF PERSON THEY WANT TO SHARE THEIR LIFE WITH .
Even if it means that the standard they set automatically preselects certain types OUT OF THEIR SUBSET.

If a person does not think they should discuss their past with a potential partner , nothing is wrong with that.
All they have to do is find another person , just like them , who is also NOT WILLING to discuss their past, get married and " live happily ever after."

Simple.
No existential mumbo jumbo needed there.


----------



## Entropy3000

HopelesslyJaded said:


> In general no. Once I moved out of my small hometown most of that stopped. The people who felt I should be ashamed must have kept it to themselves.
> After being on here a little while it leads me to believe that I am possibly quietly judged severely on my past by many.
> I am known to be depressed over my physical appearance and recently my marriage but never before this forum would "low value"come to mind.
> I got to wonder if that phrase comes across as horrible to others as it does me.


I have a protective nature so I am going chime in here. Please do not allow folks trolling to mess with your head. 

We have posession of our own integrity. We all get judged in life for various things. That is ok. The person that matters is ourselves. 

We should not fear who we are. I am not ashamed of my past. It is part of me. My wife knows my past and I know hers. 

If someone does not like us for who we are then we are not compatible with them. It does not mean that we are not good people or that they do not have a right to choose for themselves and that they are not a good person either. It is how people pair up. It is actually part of the whole scheme of things.

I mean lets get real, some of us are not rich enough, clever enough, or the right height or weight or witty enough or have compatible sexual history or have the wrong size sex organs or breast size or whatever. So what? There are plenty of compatible people for all of us. You cannot please everyone. 

I am just saying that there is no reason to allow comments on this freakin forum to be taken as a put down. First off the context here is in choosing a life long partner. It is about compatibility.

But don't be manipulated by anyone who may be so shallow as to get a kick out of messing with good peoples heads.

I am sure you know this already but just hoping to validate this for you.


----------



## Caribbean Man

HopelesslyJaded said:


> In general no. Once I moved out of my small hometown most of that stopped. The people who felt I should be ashamed must have kept it to themselves.
> After being on here a little while it leads me to believe that I am possibly quietly judged severely on my past by many.
> I am known to be depressed over my physical appearance and recently my marriage but never before this forum would "low value"come to mind.
> I got to wonder if that phrase comes across as horrible to others as it does me.


In addition to what Entropy said,
The value you place on yourself,is your actual value.
Its called Self Esteem.
So long as you know your value,nothing anybody says or does can affect that.

Every person does have an intrinsic value.
That value is why you go to the gym and work out.
That value is why you look back at your past and determine to do better.

If you didn't have intrinsic value,then you wouldn't even bother with right and wrong. You would have been in the same position as before, or worse.


----------



## Thundarr

HopelesslyJaded said:


> In general no. Once I moved out of my small hometown most of that stopped. The people who felt I should be ashamed must have kept it to themselves.
> After being on here a little while it leads me to believe that I am possibly quietly judged severely on my past by many.
> I am known to be depressed over my physical appearance and recently my marriage but never before this forum would "low value"come to mind.
> I got to wonder if that phrase comes across as horrible to others as it does me.


It's hard to know who judges and who does not. You are probably appreciated by many many more. But yea. What they said


----------



## FalconKing

Ok look. 

We all have preference for what we look for in a partner. But sometimes I just feel when I am reading these post some people are letting their insecurities get the best of them. I am a black man. This will never change about me. I have had instances of women telling me they will not date me because I was not the same race as them or they preferred someone who was not black. Maybe they have been exposed to some many negative connotations of someone of my race that they would prefer not to get romantically involved. I am sure there are people on this board that feel the same way. Does that mean those people think they are better than me? Does that mean my value is low in their eyes? It could. But sometimes it just means I just dont want to date you out a preference of what I am looking for. I work out often. Some of my friends have worked out a combined total of 24 hours their whole life. Would I die for this person? Yes. Do I want to marry someone like this? No. If someone you are trying to date declines your advances, do you respond with a "Well F U!"? Or do you take into account that people want different things, respect that and roll out. 

Just because somebody has a preference in a partner that disqualifies you as their mate, this person is not wrong. Everybody has their own preferences.

Also I would like to add to something. People have been saying that it is hypocritical for a man to want a low number woman if he has a high number. Even though I want a woman similar to me in this regard sometimes men and women dont want the same things. If a woman wants a tall man but she is not tall, is she a hypocrite? How stupid does that sound? If she wants man to be able to fix things around the house when she doesnt know much about tools, should the man hold her to the same standard. I think some of you are just picking and choosing whats fair only if it deals with something that can be perceived as being negative about you.


----------



## Thundarr

FalconKing said:


> Ok look.
> 
> We all have preference for what we look for in a partner. But sometimes I just feel when I am reading these post some people are letting their insecurities get the best of them. I am a black man. This will never change about me. I have had instances of women telling me they will not date me because I was not the same race as them or they preferred someone who was not black. Maybe they have been exposed to some many negative connotations of someone of my race that they would prefer not to get romantically involved. I am sure there are people on this board that feel the same way. Does that mean those people think they are better than me? Does that mean my value is low in their eyes? It could. But sometimes it just means I just dont want to date you out a preference of what I am looking for. I work out often. Some of my friends have worked out a combined total of 24 hours their whole life. Why I die for this person? Yes. Do I want to marry someone like this? No. If someone you are trying to date declines your advances, do you respond with a "Well F U!"? Or do you take into account that people want different things, respect that and roll out.
> 
> Just because somebody has a preference in a partner that disqualifies you as their mate, this person is not wrong. Everybody has their own preferences.
> 
> Also I would like to add to something. People have been saying that it is hypocritical for a man to want a low number woman if he has a high number. Even though I want a woman similar to me in this regard sometimes men and women dont want the same things. If a woman wants a tall man but she is not tall, is she a hypocrite? How stupid does that sound? If she wants man to be able to fix things around the house when she doesnt know much about tools, should the man hold her to the same standard. I think some of you are just picking and choosing whats fair only if it deals with something that can be perceived as being negative about you.


Yes a simple notion of history matters to people gets turned into "you woman hating monster". Lot's of assumptions, and extreme interpretations on this thread.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> Yes a simple notion of history matters to people gets turned into "you woman hating monster".* Lot's of assumptions, and extreme interpretations on this thread*.


The OP came with a clear ,concise post outlining his experience and what he has learned from it. He then asks for opinions.
But somehow the thread turns into a " catfight " with a clique posters hurling accusations ,insults and casting aspersions at one particular poster, because she was brave enough to THINK for herself.
She dared to say YES a person's history,whether male or female should matter, and she went on to say why.

It is interesting to note, not one single male poster attacked any female poster about their past,all they said was yes it mattered to THEM personally, or no it didn't

How this can be viewed as an " an attack against women" defies any logic. 
In fact the only " attack " I saw was a clique of women verbally attacking another female poster for something she did when she was 13 years old. [ which she didn't deny and expressed remorse for.]
Pathetic?
Why the forum was used to hurl abuses at another female poster for no apparent reason other than her stand , is downright disgraceful.

IMO, anyone who has to stoop to that level to present a case , has already lost their case.
Call me judgemental or hypocritical if you may, 
But my back is wide , hard and strong. 

I work out.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Caribbean Man said:


> The OP came with a clear ,concise post outlining his experience and what he has learned from it. He then asks for opinions.
> But somehow the thread turns into a " catfight " with a clique posters hurling accusations ,insults and casting aspersions at one particular poster, because she was brave enough to THINK for herself.
> She dared to say YES a person's history,whether male or female should matter, and she went on to say why.
> 
> It is interesting to note, not one single male poster attacked any female poster about their past,all they said was yes it mattered to THEM personally, or no it didn't
> 
> How this can be viewed as an " an attack against women" defies any logic.
> In fact the only " attack " I saw was a clique of women verbally attacking another female poster for something she did when she was 13 years old. [ which she didn't deny and expressed remorse for.]
> Pathetic?
> Why the forum was used to hurl abuses at another female poster for no apparent reason other than her stand , is downright disgraceful.
> 
> IMO, anyone who has to stoop to that level to present a case , has already lost their case.
> Call me judgemental or hypocritical if you may,
> But my back is wide , hard and strong.
> 
> I work out.


Caribbean Man... I just read this while getting my kids up for school, I am standing in my kitchen, back to them eating their breakfast not wanting them to see my face ...cause I have tears running down it right now....Yes, I am very sensitive - and I wouldn't want to change this fact, even though it hurts like hell sometimes. 

I do feel despised by some women here and misread in addition. 

I deeply appreciate your words here. You seem to be the King of Understanding..... and see, just goes to show - which I've said on this very thread....it is NOT about one's # of partners or their sexual past ....but well...summed up beautifully by the last few posts given by the men here - I resonated with every word...starting with Entropys....excellence ......



> We should not fear who we are. I am not ashamed of my past. It is part of me. My wife knows my past and I know hers.
> 
> If someone does not like us for who we are then we are not compatible with them. It does not mean that we are not good people or that they do not have a right to choose for themselves and that they are not a good person either. It is how people pair up. It is actually part of the whole scheme of things.
> 
> I mean lets get real, some of us are not rich enough, clever enough, or the right height or weight or witty enough or have compatible sexual history or have the wrong size sex organs or breast size or whatever. So what? There are plenty of compatible people for all of us. You cannot please everyone.
> 
> I am just saying that there is no reason to allow comments on this freakin blog to be taken as a put down. First off the context here is in choosing a life long partner. It is about compatibility.
> 
> But don't be manipulated by anyone who may be so shallow as to get a kick out of messing with good peoples heads.
> 
> I am sure you know this already but just hoping to validate this for you .


 I'd LIKE it 10 times if I could.


----------



## tryingtobebetter

SimplyAmorous said:


> We live near the Amish... and we always look at them in Awe....because they live such a "simple" existence...who is to say we are genuinelly happier than they. They have much less EGO than us...they have their big families living together into old age, connection, hard work....they wear the same clothes & are not even allowed to get their pictures taken.. I don't understand it all but yet...they find value in their way of life, it is very precious to them.


Thank you *Simply Amorous*. I saw a snatch of a TV program recently about the Amish. The young woman speaking to camera came across as extraordinarily sweet natured, gentle, loving. Bewitching, really. Made me realise further how 'the world' hardens and coarsens us (includes me)

She was worried that some Amish would now shun her for appearing on TV. She did it because she thought it might do some good (which I am sure it did)


----------



## CandieGirl

Entropy3000 said:


> I have a protective nature so I am going chime in here. Please do not allow folks trolling to mess with your head.
> 
> We have posession of our own integrity. We all get judged in life for various things. That is ok. The person that matters is ourselves.
> 
> We should not fear who we are. I am not ashamed of my past. It is part of me. My wife knows my past and I know hers.
> 
> If someone does not like us for who we are then we are not compatible with them. It does not mean that we are not good people or that they do not have a right to choose for themselves and that they are not a good person either. It is how people pair up. It is actually part of the whole scheme of things.
> 
> I mean lets get real, some of us are not rich enough, clever enough, or the right height or weight or witty enough or have compatible sexual history or have the wrong size sex organs or breast size or whatever. So what? There are plenty of compatible people for all of us. You cannot please everyone.
> 
> I am just saying that there is no reason to allow comments on this freakin blog to be taken as a put down. First off the context here is in choosing a life long partner. It is about compatibility.
> 
> But don't be manipulated by anyone who may be so shallow as to get a kick out of messing with good peoples heads.
> 
> I am sure you know this already but just hoping to validate this for you.


One of the best replies so far.


----------



## FirstYearDown

I think that many members who have posted in this thread, believe that it is only acceptable to attack those with high numbers but not the other way around. It is NEVER okay to make snide remarks about sexual experiences, no matter how many partners a TAM member has bedded.

I don't think that pointing out the inconsistences in someone's posts and their morals is attacking, as long as there is a clear and polite explanation following the observations.

At the end of the day, I know I am married to a wonderful man who does not judge me for my past. He is a rare find; the kind of man who is mature and progressive enough to realize that there is nothing wrong with a woman exploring her sexuality or making mistakes while she is a young single adult. All he cares about is what I have done since I have been with him. I wouldn't have it any other way.

If more men thought like my husband, so many women would not feel the need to lie about the number of men they have been to bed with or hide their unique sexual experiences. Unfortunately, the double standard exists because women have always been shamed for being sexually liberated. This has not ended despite the fact that we are in 2012.

It has been my experience that men's double standards are not just in the sexual arena. I once dated a man who smoked cigarettes, yet he lectured me and threatened to leave because I liked to smoke pot. I have heard more than one man say that they do not want a woman who drinks, when they have a beer every night. Men and woman cannot afford to have unfair expectations of the opposite sex; it just perpetuates strife in relationships. 

Women have double standards too and I don't like it at all. I can't tell all of you how many times I have seen uneducated "babymama" types speak of only wanting to meet educated rich men. So many mothers feel that men cannot be good parents just because males cannot give birth.


----------



## FalconKing

FirstYearDown said:


> I think that many members who have posted in this thread, believe that it is only acceptable to attack those with high numbers but not the other way around. It is NEVER okay to make snide remarks about sexual experiences, no matter how many partners a TAM member has bedded.


You honestly dont feel like the ones advocating that someones past matters were not attacked? Some have been straight up told they are wrong and should not think this way. 

I have tried to bridge the gap by pointing out how everyone has their own standards and this is just an example of one. People chime in about what standards and dealbreakers they have but by saying someone past matters I speak blasphemy. I have not attacked anyone but will not accept someone telling me I am not allowed to have a certain standard because that means they will be seen for their past decisions sexually. But everything else is ok What makes me view anyone negatively here is them wanting me to respect where they are coming from and not giving me the same respect. Or them warping the subject matter to feed their insecurities and it giving them the green light to raise hell. 



> I don't think that pointing out the inconsistences in someone's posts and their morals is attacking, as long as there is a clear and polite explanation following the observations.


Yes. But if someone doesnt want to hear what you say when you are not talking to them, I doubt they will listen less when you are.


----------



## that_girl

Well, let's put it this way. 

When men sleep around, they have to sleep with women (assuming they are straight men). The woman they want to marry probably won't be one of the women he is sowing his oats with bceause those women are "easy" and probably have a higher number than the woman he wants to marry.

So what about those women? Good enough to sleep with to make your number higher...but when you are ready to settle down, those women aren't good enough?

Eh. lol. Men and women should be able to explore their sexuality without judgement. Women shouldn't be considered to have low self esteem just because she has experienced more sexual contact than others. Maybe some women don't have sex because THEY have low self esteem.

Take it on a person by person basis. But I *do* find it hypocritical to say that men have higher numbers and that's ok because women want tall men even if the women aren't tall. WHAT!? :rofl: No. Stop it.


----------



## FalconKing

that_girl said:


> But I *do* find it hypocritical to say that men have higher numbers and that's ok because women want tall men even if the women aren't tall. WHAT!? :rofl:  No. Stop it.


The point I was making was saying men and women dont always look for the same thing in a spouse. On the average, financial security is important to a woman. Not to the man, because he is expected to be the provider. I am not looking to cause some rant about feminism. Just pointing how a lot of people do indeed think. 

I also find it hypocritical to be able to disqualify someone because of their past of drug abuse or bar hopping. But think everyone gets a free acceptance pass for their sexual history. How is that fair? And if you can admit that is not fair, why cant you also admit that you are being hypocritical? Its all relevant to past decisions.


----------



## that_girl

Maybe because I never did drugs in a junky way, so I can't understand all of that, nor do I want to.

I also don't GO to bars...when I did go with friends, I kept to myself and made up reasons to leave.

So for me, that isn't hypocritical. Because I dont' do them myself.

Now, if i was a bar fly or a heroin addict who refused to date men from bars or drug addicts, then yea, I'd be a hypocrite.

I love sex. I have had a great sexual experience in my 20s. I was experimenting (never with more than 1 partner at a time), and had fun. SO, I don't mind that other people have as well.

Now, If I was a big ho, and refused to date someone with a past (or visa versa) then it is hypocritical. Men who have a high number of women, and then only want to settle down with women who have low numbers is somewhat of a hypocrite. No?

If you have an average amount of sex partners, and you date people with average sexual pasts, then fine. But it's the people who have been pretty free with their sexuality, who then want a virgin for marriage because the other women are "spent", that kinda rub me the wrong way.


----------



## that_girl

But I also think women should wait to marry until they can support themselves before marriage. I was a professional, living on my own, supporting a child on my own before getting into a money-sharing relationship. My only needs for a man were: Self-sufficiency, stable job, and responsible with money--- ALL OF WHICH I was myself. So, not hypocritical.


----------



## FalconKing

that_girl said:


> Maybe because I never did drugs in a junky way, so I can't understand all of that, nor do I want to.


In a junky way? So you do have some experience. What if a ex drug addict was like, "Well you got high too, so whats your problem?"




> I love sex. I have had a great sexual experience in my 20s. I was experimenting (never with more than 1 partner at a time), and had fun. SO, I don't mind that other people have as well.
> 
> Now, If I was a big ho, and refused to date someone with a past (or visa versa) then it is hypocritical. Men who have a high number of women, and then only want to settle down with women who have low numbers is somewhat of a hypocrite. No?


I love sex too. But I want someone who has had fun with her boyfriend(s). And exactly what men have said this on this thread? How did you ladies get this in your head that the thread was about this? At first you said that no one should be judge for their sexual past, now you are saying its just not ok to be hypocritical. What are you trying to defend or fight against? I dont recall any male posters instigating you with this or these kinds of statement. If you want to use this as a platform to say men can be hypocritical, then you have to acknowledge women can be just as bad. Maybe sometimes people do not want somebody who has made the same mistakes. You think somebody with a bad credit score wants someobody else who had the same issue? You think somebody who was sexually abused wants somebody else who was?

What if a woman with a kid decided she didnt want a man who had kids? Hypocritical or not everyone has a right to choose the qualities they want in a spouse. I am not going to tell someone their way of choosing is wrong. I can just tell them I dont agree with it and maybe why I dont. 



> If you have an average amount of sex partners, and you date people with average sexual pasts, then fine. But it's the people who have been pretty free with their sexuality, who then want a virgin for marriage because the other women are "spent", that kinda rub me the wrong way.


No one is forcing these women to sleep with these men. They are making that decision for themselves. So if they meet a man who wants to settle down with a woman who has only been with men in committed relationships, I have no sympathy for them. And like I said, men and women dont always want the same things.

Some people want a similiar past sexually, some want similarities in other ways. But I still think if you are going to spend the rest of your life with someone, you have to know what you are getting into on all fronts. No questions are too personal. You should know this persons sexual past.


----------



## anonim

FalconKing said:


> The point I was making was saying men and women dont always look for the same thing in a spouse. So which different things do you think that they look for in a spouse? On the average, financial security is important to a woman. Probably because of the disparity of earnings between men and women. Not to the man, because he is expected to be the provider. I am not looking to cause some rant about feminism. Just pointing how a lot of people do indeed think.
> 
> I also find it hypocritical to be able to disqualify someone because of their past of drug abuse or bar hopping. But think everyone gets a free acceptance pass for their sexual history. How is that fair?
> 
> I think you see it the wrong way.
> After work everyday some guys have a few beers.
> Some guys have none.
> And some guys drink themselves into oblivion.
> The problem would be with the 'medicating' of oneself, be it with alcohol, drugs, sex, work or whatever. Dont call they symptom the illness, especially when you're drinking beers, buying beers for others while telling them they are worth less because they drink too much.  Target the behavior not the medication.
> 
> 
> And if you can admit that is not fair, why cant you also admit that you are being hypocritical? Its all relevant to past decisions.


----------



## Thundarr

3-4 pages AGAIN spinning out of control . I don't even think everyone is SO polar opposite as what it keeps spinning into. Some comments are blunt, some offense taken too quickly, some assumptions and ..... some really great post by men and women.

I have a question though "Do you guys thing a persons sexual history matters"?


----------



## FalconKing

> So which different things do you think that they look for in a spouse?


Depends on the person. 



> Probably because of the disparity of earnings between men and women.


I never tried to explain why. You are not proving me wrong. So what are you defending? Are now arguing for the sake of arguing??



> I think you see it the wrong way.
> After work everyday some guys have a few beers.
> Some guys have none.
> And some guys drink themselves into oblivion.
> The problem would be with the 'medicating' of oneself, be it with alcohol, drugs, sex, work or whatever. Dont call they symptom the illness, especially when you're drinking beers, buying beers for others while telling them they are worth less because they drink too much. Target the behavior not the medication.


I see it the wrong way because I think all these things matter?
And then you give a lesson in social work? 
Excuse me


----------



## anonim

Thundarr said:


> 3-4 pages AGAIN spinning out of control . I don't even think everyone is SO polar opposite as what it keeps spinning into. Some comments are blunt, some offense taken too quickly, some assumptions and ..... some really great post by men and women.
> 
> I have a question though "Do you guys thing a persons sexual history matters"?


if im not with them then no. If i am then maybe.


----------



## MrsKy

I find intellect very sexy, so I would never seek to control that in a man.

Only insecure men try to control a woman's sexuality. 

Unfortunately, this is very common.


----------



## Caribbean Man

MrsKy said:


> I find intellect very sexy, so I would never seek to control that in a man.
> 
> Only insecure men try to control a woman's sexuality.
> 
> Unfortunately, this is very common.


And I find high drive women very sexy,so I will never try to control that in my wife.

Many single high drive women have lots of partners. They simply want to explore their sexuality, which is highly commendable

They don't place high value on long term monogamous relationships , and eventually they want to continue exploring their sexuality.

Unfortunately, they cheat.

Only stupid men want a LTR with a woman who has proven in the past that she is unable to commit to the rigours of a long term monogamous relationship like marriage.


----------



## AFEH

MrsKy said:


> I find intellect very sexy, so I would never seek to control that in a man.
> 
> Only insecure men try to control a woman's sexuality.
> 
> Unfortunately, this is very common.


_“Jealousy is an emotion and typically refers to the negative thoughts and feelings of insecurity, fear, and anxiety over an anticipated loss of something that the person values ….”_


If you are ever with a man who does not react with jealousy after seeing you make sexual overtures to another man then there’s one thing you can be absolutely gold plated certain of. The guy does not value you one little bit and so has absolutely no fear of losing you because he wont mind at all if you take up with the other man.


If not only does he not respond with the emotions of jealousy, he additionally does not respond with the strong emotions associated with betrayal than that will be because he’s provided you with exceedingly little and made practically no investment in you.



So the lack of jealousy and feelings of betrayal if you make sexual advances to another man tell you all you need to know about him. He doesn’t love you, doesn’t care for you and sees no long term future with you.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

I still think the main thing that got this topic so flared up IS those expecting certain standards not holding themselves to the same. Not the fact that they have those standards. That's why the hypocracy stuff started. 

I think we all started out will all the hopes and ideals on what the perfect wife or husband was when we were younger. Then the older you get you realize this isn't a fairy tale world we live in and you make adjustments.

I honestly don't recall wondering what my husband's sexual history was. It did come out in conversations, but like I said before the conversation didn't seem so serious. If he had avoided the topic, then maybe I would have been more curious. That comes down to honesty. I have just never seen a reason to lie about the past because I like people to like me, the real me.


----------



## Caribbean Man

AFEH said:


> _“Jealousy is an emotion and typically refers to the negative thoughts and feelings of insecurity, fear, and anxiety over an anticipated loss of something that the person values ….”_
> 
> *So the lack of jealousy and feelings of betrayal if you make sexual advances to another man tell you all you need to know about him. He doesn’t love you, doesn’t care for you and sees no long term future with you.*


:iagree:

A lot of people simple refuse to sit down and COUNT THE COST.
The freedom they crave actually has a PRICE TAG.

Jealousy in itself could be a positive emotion.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

Caribbean Man said:


> And I find high drive women very sexy,so I will never try to control that in my wife.
> 
> *Many single high drive women have lots of partners. They simply want to explore their sexuality, which is highly commendable
> 
> They don't place high value on long term monogamous relationships , and eventually they want to continue exploring their sexuality*.
> 
> Unfortunately, they cheat.
> 
> Only stupid men want a LTR with a woman who has proven in the past that she is unable to commit to the rigours of a long term monogamous relationship like marriage.


That is a matter of opinion CM not fact. I do not agree with that notion. 

Do you think men somehow have a magic button that makes them able to commit after being so sexually adventerous that women lack? LOL Because we know that typically men are HD


----------



## CandieGirl

Caribbean Man said:


> And I find high drive women very sexy,so I will never try to control that in my wife.
> 
> Many single high drive women have lots of partners. They simply want to explore their sexuality, which is highly commendable
> 
> *They don't place high value on long term monogamous relationships , and eventually they want to continue exploring their sexuality.*Unfortunately, they cheat.
> 
> Only stupid men want a LTR with a woman who has proven in the past that she is unable to commit to the rigours of a long term monogamous relationship like marriage.


Which is why I'm very glad I had 25 years of exploring my sexuality _before_ getting married. If what you say is true, CM, then I am a great candidate for marriage, since I got it all out of my system before making the committment to my husband for the rest of my life. Something I take very seriously. 

How many marriages dissolve after 10, 15, 20 years because the husband or wife suddenly decides that they love you but are no longer in love with you? Or maybe it's because they just didn't get it out of their system when they were younger, and jumped into marriage TOO SOON.


----------



## Caribbean Man

HopelesslyJaded said:


> I think we all started out will all the hopes and ideals on what the perfect wife or husband was when we were younger. *Then the older you get you realize this isn't a fairy tale world we live in and you make adjustments.*


This is the key.
Some people NEVER make the necessary sacrifices and adjustments to make a relationship work.

Women feel vulnerable because of their past.
They don't want to be judged by their past simply because they choose to do stuff they themselves frown on.

Men feel vulnerable because of the future. They want to start a family and have a wife who understands the meaning of the marriage VOWS.

Marriage takes WORK.
You cannot fully love somebody without feeling vulnerable at some point.


----------



## Caribbean Man

HopelesslyJaded said:


> That is a matter of opinion CM not fact. I do not agree with that notion.
> 
> *Do you think men somehow have a magic button that makes them able to commit after being so sexually adventerous that women lack? LOL Because we know that typically men are HD*



That is and has always been my point hope.
There is no magic button.

That is why a person's sexual history MATTERS.


----------



## ScaredandUnsure

I slept around when I was young and single. It was fun, I enjoyed it at the time. But when in a relationship, I've always been faithful, I have never cheated on any man I've been with and I don't crave the freedom of having sex with whoever. I am and always will be devoted and faithful to my partner. If ever a time comes where I am not happy with my relationship, I will leave it before seeking out the companionship of others. I don't flirt with other men while in a relationship, the thought of that leave a greasy, nasty feeling in my stomach.

I have a high sex drive, but I only want to be with my man sexually and emotionally.


----------



## Caribbean Man

A past girlfriend of mine from in high school got married to guy I personally knew was a closet gay many years ago.
I knew he was gay, because we both used to model for the same fashion company.
I didn't know they were courting,they met and got married in New York,and returned here to live. 
We ran into each other at a function and she introduced me.
I couldn't tell her.
A few years later I met her mom , who told me about the divorce after their first child.
He was having sex with men on the side.

Had she enquired about his past, or if she had known , do you think she would have married him?

I think its just common sense to discuss these matters before marriage,find out where a person was, where they're at NOW and what they want to do from now on.

Refusing to divulge information is not healthy for ANY relationship much less marriage.

Like I've said before.
If a person is not proud of their past nothing is wrong with that. Just dust yourself off and MOVE FORWARD.

If a partner refuse to accept you because of your past, even though you have changed your outlook, then that is THEIR LOSS, but also THEIR RIGHT.
Many more fishes in the sea, just move on.


----------



## Thundarr

HopelesslyJaded said:


> I still think the main thing that got this topic so flared up IS those expecting certain standards not holding themselves to the same. Not the fact that they have those standards. That's why the hypocracy stuff started.
> 
> I think we all started out will all the hopes and ideals on what the perfect wife or husband was when we were younger. Then the older you get you realize this isn't a fairy tale world we live in and you make adjustments.
> 
> I honestly don't recall wondering what my husband's sexual history was. It did come out in conversations, but like I said before the conversation didn't seem so serious. If he had avoided the topic, then maybe I would have been more curious. That comes down to honesty. I have just never seen a reason to lie about the past because I like people to like me, the real me.


I'll get jumped on but I don't think it's a fair observation at all.

If men and women wanted the same things in general then it would be fair to say there should be no double standard. In reality there are two double standards. Men expect a woman to be something they themselves are not but women also expect men to be something they are not as well. It's not just the same criteria. Personally it does not bother me at all that women in general want a man who can provide and protect her and men in general want a woman who he can trust and it loyal. Really all of us want all of that in a partner but priorities and importance differ in the genders. Not just in what we thin but also in what we find attractive for no reason we know of.

Hopelessly, there was a vetting process that you put your husband under when dating. A subconscious check list so to speak. Financially independent, good with kids, good to his mother, etc. The end goal to determine it he makes you feel safe and secure. It's just that most woman vetting criteria for better survival has not placed much weight on a mans sexual past.

The same happens with men in vetting their partners but part of the end-goal is to ensure and invest in his own bloodline. Based on this end goal the criteria includes anything that make's us insecure in that regard which sexual past could.

Let's be realistic, an independent woman with kids is a relatively new thing in history. And a man being able to test for paternity is also. Our minds have not caught up to technology.

To be mad about this should not be hoisted onto men's shoulders. Be mad at the evolutionary roll of "survival of the fitest".

Now I'll get the "don't give me evo comments". Trust me I wouldn't if it were not true. I didn't make it that way I'm just saying what I see.


----------



## MrsKy

AFEH said:


> _“Jealousy is an emotion and typically refers to the negative thoughts and feelings of insecurity, fear, and anxiety over an anticipated loss of something that the person values ….”_
> 
> 
> If you are ever with a man who does not react with jealousy after seeing you make sexual overtures to another man then there’s one thing you can be absolutely gold plated certain of. The guy does not value you one little bit and so has absolutely no fear of losing you because he wont mind at all if you take up with the other man.
> 
> 
> If not only does he not respond with the emotions of jealousy, he additionally does not respond with the strong emotions associated with betrayal than that will be because he’s provided you with exceedingly little and made practically no investment in you.
> 
> 
> 
> So the lack of jealousy and feelings of betrayal if you make sexual advances to another man tell you all you need to know about him. He doesn’t love you, doesn’t care for you and sees no long term future with you.


:iagree::iagree: My husband is a little bit possessive and jealous. I don't mind it; shows that he cares very deeply and is protective. If a man gives me the eye and my husband is around, hubby will grab my hand and glare at the fool who dared to look at me with lust.

My husband committed to me even though I had been around the block. He knew that I could be faithful to the right man and he was correct. When I slept around, I tried to find a decent guy who did not misrepresent himself or leave me when I would not go to bed on the second date. THIS TOOK YEARS.

And CM, despite my past I have NEVER cheated so your generalization is a little offensive.


----------



## Thundarr

MrsKy said:


> :iagree::iagree: My husband is a little bit possessive and jealous. I don't mind it; shows that he cares very deeply and is protective. If a man gives me the eye and my husband is around, hubby will grab my hand and glare at the fool who dared to look at me with lust.
> 
> My husband committed to me even though I had been around the block. He knew that I could be faithful to the right man and he was correct. When I slept around, I tried to find a decent guy who did not misrepresent himself or leave me when I would not go to bed on the second date. THIS TOOK YEARS.
> 
> And CM, despite my past I have NEVER cheated so your generalization is a little offensive.


I think a lot like your husband. Flaw or not, I am a little bit protective but hopefully not possessive. And I agree checkered past is sometimes an indicator that no one lived up to expectations that you were searching for.


----------



## Deejo

I see naughtiness ...

Please don't be naughty, or we will have to discontinue this social intercourse.


----------



## Caribbean Man

MrsKy said:


> :iagree::iagree: My husband is a little bit possessive and jealous. I don't mind it; shows that he cares very deeply and is protective. If a man gives me the eye and my husband is around, hubby will grab my hand and glare at the fool who dared to look at me with lust.
> 
> My husband committed to me even though I had been around the block. He knew that I could be faithful to the right man and he was correct. When I slept around, I tried to find a decent guy who did not misrepresent himself or leave me when I would not go to bed on the second date. THIS TOOK YEARS.
> 
> *And CM, despite my past I have NEVER cheated so your generalization is a little offensive.*


No need to be offended.
As long as you KNOW that you don't fall into that set.
It simply does not apply.

Scientific research has shown that women who have a high number of partners before marriage are more likely to cheat.
It never said that ALL women who have a high number WILL cheat.
Scientific research also says that men who are high achievers and driven by adrenaline are more likely to cheat
It never said that all such men cheat.

The generalization works both ways, and it can be helpful in predicting behavioural patterns, explaining why so that people could make proper decisions.


----------



## anonim

caribbean man said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> this [ highlighted ] is basically the same thought process that *some *men use to preselect women whom they deem unfit for long term commitment in marriage.


ftfy




Caribbean Man said:


> And I find high drive women very sexy,so I will never try to control that in my wife.
> 
> Many single high drive *People *have lots of partners. They simply want to explore their sexuality, which is highly commendable
> *
> They don't place high value on long term monogamous relationships, and eventually they want to continue exploring their sexuality.
> 
> Unfortunately, they cheat.*


*

FTFY - men do that too.*


----------



## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> I'll get jumped on but I don't think it's a fair observation at all.
> 
> *If men and women wanted the same things in general then it would be fair to say there should be no double standard. In reality there are two double standards. Men expect a woman to be something they themselves are not but women also expect men to be something they are not as well. It's not just the same criteria. * Personally it does not bother me at all that women in general want a man who can provide and protect her and men in general want a woman who he can trust and it loyal. Really all of us want all of that in a partner but priorities and importance differ in the genders. Not just in what we thin but also in what we find attractive for no reason we know of.


:iagree:

Therin lies the genesis of what is perceived as the " struggle for equality" in this matter.
And yes, a lot of what is being discussed is tied up in evolutionary psychology and socio- sexual trends.


----------



## FalconKing

CandieGirl
I dont know why you are any woman took it so personal. It was never about you. I dont even know you!


----------



## anonim

ScaredandUnsure said:


> I slept around when I was young and single. It was fun, I enjoyed it at the time. But when in a relationship, I've always been faithful, I have never cheated on any man I've been with and I don't crave the freedom of having sex with whoever. I am and always will be devoted and faithful to my partner. If ever a time comes where I am not happy with my relationship, I will leave it before seeking out the companionship of others. I don't flirt with other men while in a relationship, the thought of that leave a greasy, nasty feeling in my stomach.
> 
> I have a high sex drive, but I only want to be with my man sexually and emotionally.


And this is what i refer to when I say that promiscuity <> immorality.

This is what most of the men in this thread are afraid of IMO.


----------



## FalconKing

anonim said:


> And this is what i refer to when I say that promiscuity <> immorality.
> 
> This is what most of the men in this thread are afraid of IMO.


Yeah...try to get some jabs in when the refs not looking:smthumbup:.


----------



## Deejo

FrenchFry said:


> I'd rather not have sucky sex. If I could've got performance reviews from potential partners...my number would be a lot higher.


Liked your whole post FF.

But this one stood out to my entrepreneurial mind. There is a smartphone app in there waiting to be created.


----------



## Thundarr

CandieGirl said:


> I get too enraged by some of you guys; but please don't ban me until I can go and delete my threads. When (not if, but when) it happens again, I won't be back.  Mabye.


Chill CandieGirl. It's human nature to escalate and go into "fight" mode. I like some of your points quite a bit. Some not so much.


----------



## FalconKing

I think FF is saying what we have been trying to say until we are blue in the face. And some people just cant hear it without hearing how somebody is saying they may not have interest in them as a potential partner. There is somebody out there to disqualify us all for different reasons. I am ok with that. I just want the same right for my reasons. The only thing I am afraid of is somebody being ready to fight about something I wasnt even talking about.


----------



## anonim

FrenchFry said:


> I've been following this thread and while it's been chock full of hilarity...I think some of it comes down to:
> 
> *It's offensive to tell women that their number is an indicator of how much they value relationships and not tell men the same. Men and women both are capable of finding the person that can make them settle down and be happily married.
> 
> *People have different preferences in life and_ that's ok._
> We can't be mad when we don't meet someone's personal preference, there are 7 billion people on the planet, more likely than not we can find someone with whom we align. However, using our preferences as either "truth" or "judgement" is going to offend people because as the saying goes: opinions are like *******s, everyone has got one and sometimes they stink. Be preferential to yourself, and keep that wide brush for painting houses.
> 
> *Don't lie in relationships.
> 
> *I'm on the lower end of the number scale in my peer group (and it's not because I valued relationships and sex too much to not sleep around. It's mostly because I hold a pretty strong bias in my head that most people suck at sexing me up and I'd rather not have sucky sex. If I could've got performance reviews from potential partners...my number would be a lot higher.


insightful posts as always french


----------



## FalconKing

I think out of this entire thread there is only 15 people who understood what the hell I was trying to say. I should have asked a female poster to make this thread and use a man as an example of her story:yawn2:


----------



## anonim

FalconKing said:


> I think out of this entire thread there is only 15 people who understood what the hell I was trying to say. I should have asked a female poster to make this thread and use a man as an example of her story:yawn2:


or made it non gender specific?


----------



## Caribbean Man

FalconKing said:


> I think FF is saying what we have been trying to say until we are blue in the face. And some people just cant hear it without hearing how somebody is saying they may not have interest in them as a potential partner. *There is somebody out there to disqualify us all for different reasons. I am ok with that. I just want the same right for my reasons.* The only thing I am afraid of is somebody being ready to fight about something I wasnt even talking about.


And that's just it.
Simply put, no woman can tell me that I am not supposed to judge them based on their sexual history, whilst at the same time they are judging me based on values.
If your values close to your heart, 
So are mine.


----------



## FalconKing

anonim said:


> or made it non gender specific?


Well sorry I am a heterosexual man and not a hermaphrodite. And as you can see the title includes persons and all the while I am explaining why I feel anyones sexual history matters. But thank you for proving my point...that you somehow warped it in your head to be a attack on women:slap:


----------



## CandieGirl

...and quite a few made the assumption that people with a more flavorful past would lie about it to their spouses...

I'm sure I mentioned earlier in the thread how it was actually my husband who omitted his details. My husband, the one with the low number! Human relationships are complex in nature; I highly doubt any of us sit with pen and paper poised, taking note of past histories as though they were students in a lecture. We date, talk, get to know one another...it took me awhile to open up to the man who would be my husband. A little info here, a bit more there...and when I was met with an open face, questioning INTERESTED eyes (the windows to the soul) only then did I feel completely comfortable letting him in on the things from my history that make me tick; and reciprocally, I thought that HE was being forthcoming with me, but he wasn't. Oversight? Fear of being judged? Who knows, and it matters not now, since we are both headed off, hand in hand, in the same direction. 

:lol: So sappy!


----------



## CandieGirl

Thundarr said:


> Chill CandieGirl. It's human nature to escalate and go into "fight" mode. I like some of your points quite a bit. Some not so much.


And that's fine too; I don't expect you all to agree with me. Posts are all deleted...bring it on!


----------



## CandieGirl

I like to think I spice the place up a little...


----------



## FalconKing

FrenchFry said:


> There has been a lot of personal interpretation on the thread, but I think these two sentences in tandem are why you were getting a lot of anecdotes from women who may have higher numbers but still value personal relationships because in their case higher numbers or even having a lot of drunken sex may be exactly what helped to shape their value on relationships for better or for worse.
> 
> Men get a little more leeway on having sex to help shape their relationship values. Women get more leeway on other factors. It just gets messy when the value judgements come in.


You said it. For better or Worse. But also, some posters have said they would never give people who have done certain things in their past any romantic interest. Why does me saying that piss them off. I just think some people refuse to understand where I am coming from and see that I post to only say I feel someone's history matters. And certain things are deal breaks for me. What do I need to say? I'm sorry I said that and I am wrong? I am being honest about what I want and how I feel. I don't drink. I don't like putting myself at the mercy of others by consuming something that effects my reasoning. I also want a woman(if she does drink) who thinks consuming alcohol regularly with someone who is not a her boyfriend or husband is a bad idea.


----------



## Caribbean Man

FrenchFry said:


> *There has been a lot of personal interpretation on the thread,* but I think these two sentences in tandem are why you were getting a lot of anecdotes from women who may have higher numbers but still value personal relationships because in their case higher numbers or even having a lot of drunken sex may be exactly what helped to shape their value on relationships for better or for worse.


 There has been a lot of personal interpretation on the thread,
Full stop.
There is absolutely no reason to interpret what a poster says personally unless he or she directly addresses it to YOU.
This is a public support forum where people express views.
One may or may not agree,no need for hostility and sabre rattling.

I don't do certain types of sex acts. Some people on this site enjoy them , and speak openly about it.The most I ever do is either say I don't like it , or stay out.
I don't think that because they like that type of sex it makes them less of a person, and I don't get angry, or feel I am 
" under attack " because of it.

Sometimes as adults, we should introspect first before projecting.


----------



## Deejo

This is why I make a point to mis-judge everyone equally ...

Serious side for a moment; sexuality invariably becomes part of how one defines or perceives oneself.
Particularly in the case of women ... knowing full well that my ex-MIL used to call my ex a 's1lut' ... and that was enough for her to believe it and feed into the dysfunction of our married sex life, ... I'm very sensitive to the impact words can have on perception.

That said, we all have bias. Rightly or wrongly. We own it. And one needs to be prepared to deal with owning it when we make declarations based upon it.

Falcon King has every right to set his own criteria for how he chooses a mate.

CandieGirl's criteria for a suitable partner likely prevented a lot of long term heart-ache for her.

It's all good.


And if it isn't ... I'm here to persecute and ban without bias whatsoever.


----------



## Gaia

Lol deejo... er at your last part. I do agree with your post. Everyone has their own unique standards when choosing a life partner. What's wrong to someone may be perfectly right to another.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Caribbean Man

Deejo said:


> This is why I make a point to mis-judge everyone equally ...
> 
> Serious side for a moment; sexuality invariably becomes part of how one defines or perceives oneself.
> Particularly in the case of women ... knowing full well that my ex-MIL used to call my ex a 's1lut' ... and that was enough for her to believe it and feed into the dysfunction of our married sex life, ... I'm very sensitive to the impact words can have on perception.
> 
> *That said, we all have bias. Rightly or wrongly. We own it. And one needs to be prepared to deal with owning it when we make declarations based upon it.*
> 
> Falcon King has every right to set his own criteria for how he chooses a mate.
> 
> CandieGirl's criteria for a suitable partner likely prevented a lot of long term heart-ache for her.
> 
> It's all good.
> 
> 
> And if it isn't ... I'm here to persecute and ban without bias whatsoever.


:iagree:
I can relate to everything said, especially about biases.
Everybody's bias / experiences are different.

I live in the Caribbean
I am black, my wife is of a different race.
When we started together, my wife was concerned that her mother would reject me, based on her elder sister's experience with her husband who was also black.

I met her mom and she took an instant liking to me. In fact many times I would go at their home to visit and her mom would call me into her bedroom where we would chat ,sometimes for long periods of time.
Lol, sometimes my wife would get jealous.

My wife was shocked. I told her it was not that her mother had any racial preference for them. She had an incident with her sister's husband where he was rude and arrogant. So she stopped talking to him and refused to attend their wedding.

Today, their marriage is in shambles , with three daughters.

Personal biases / values are based on personal experiences.
Everyone has the right to them,and should be prepared to either benefit or loose by them.


----------



## Thundarr

Caribbean Man said:


> And that's just it.
> Simply put, no woman can tell me that I am not supposed to judge them based on their sexual history, whilst at the same time they are judging me based on values.
> If your values close to your heart,
> So are mine.


Correct. 

A "What do you want in a man" thread and a "What do you want in a woman" thread look very different. Consensus of desired traits may overlap but not completely. In the end, women can easily overcome a checkered past with a man who loves them so it's not even a huge deal. There are plenty of examples on this thread where women have good men who are not consumed by their history. I think I'm one of those good men as well. But I refuse to act like it was not something me and most men (even good ones) pay attention to more than women. I don't feel guilty for it and I don't get mad by the fact I was judged by what ever traits my wife judged me by. 

To be honest I think we should want to know how the opposite sex values us because that's how to understand things that don't make sense to us.


----------



## Thundarr

CandieGirl said:


> ...and quite a few made the assumption that people with a more flavorful past would lie about it to their spouses...


I do make the assumption that people are more likely to lie or omit about things they think they will be judged on or things they judge themselves on. And that's not just women. So yea since women think they will be judged by their sexual history it makes sense to me that a woman with a flavorful past would be more likely to embellish it.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> Correct.
> 
> A "What do you want in a man" thread and a "What do you want in a woman" thread look very different. Consensus of desired traits may overlap but not completely. In the end, women can easily overcome a checkered past with a man who loves them so it's not even a huge deal. There are plenty of examples on this thread where women have good men who are not consumed by their history. I think I'm one of those good men as well. But I refuse to act like it was not something me and most men (even good ones) pay attention to more than women. I don't feel guilty for it and I don't get mad by the fact I was judged by what ever traits my wife judged me by.
> 
> To be honest I think we should want to know how the opposite sex values us because that's how to understand things that don't make sense to us.


My past was very colourful with all different types of women.
My wife thought at first it didn't matter. I thought so to,
Until the questions started coming.

I simply answered everything, and constantly reassured her. Sometimes she used to get upset.
Now we both look back and laugh at it.
I NEVER made her feel she was out of place to ask.


----------



## CandieGirl

But why do you make that assumption? I'm a fool...I usually think that for the most part, people tell the truth. Why? Because for the most part, I myself, tell the truth. I don't get into details, but if asked "have you ever tried/done xyz" I'd be compelled to tell the truth, especially in this day and age...Ya never know who has film of me, naked in the ocean in Jamaica with my colleague and that security guard from the resort  Actually that's an innocent story, except for the nudity, but nonetheless, photos would be extremely incriminating (just using this example to prove a point about why I feel it's best not to lie).

When I was getting to know my husband, I had no reason to think he was lying to me when he was leaving out details. Why would I? And he didn't (probably still doesn't ) think it was REALLY lying, he just omitted a few things. Oh, husband, husband, I wish you'd been more open!


----------



## that_girl

So we all agree.

Be picky as hell based on your own standards.

Don't lie.


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> so we all agree.
> 
> *be picky as hell based on your own standards.
> 
> Don't lie.*
> 
> :d


:iagree:

*full stop.
*


----------



## Thundarr

that_girl said:


> So we all agree.
> 
> Be picky as hell based on your own standards.
> 
> Don't lie.


That's what I've thought for a lot of pages.


----------



## CandieGirl

Ya, me too, and I WAS picky; my only issue with all of this (topic) was being made to feel like I didn't have the right to be picky


----------



## Thundarr

This thread is boring now. 

I think a woman's worth is directly tied to how many people she's slept with . Oh and every man's worth is directly tied to the size of his phallus.

Hope everyone can take an inappropriate joke.


----------



## CandieGirl

Thundarr said:


> *This thread is boring now.*
> 
> I think a woman's worth is directly tied to how many people she's slept with . Oh and every man's worth is directly tied to the size of his phallus.
> 
> Hope everyone can take an inappropriate joke.


Yup, and I think they cut out all the good bits...sigh...


----------



## Deejo

I didn't mean to kill the thread ... just don't make it personal ...

Here, here's a picture of a kitten:


----------



## Created2Write

cloudwithleggs said:


> I'd rather a man that knows my body and not loads of other women's, the experience a man like that brings to the table is theirs not mine and he would have to learn my body, so what is the difference.
> 
> I prefer a man that value themselves and doesn't sleep around, i do believe that there are men like this


My two cents: My mother slept around a lot when she was young, and has plenty of regrets. She raised my brother and I to cherish our virginity, and not just give it away to anyone. My family has always been spiritual, and we believed in waiting until marriage. Personally, I am so, so thankful that my only sexual partner has been my husband. No oral sex, no hand jobs...all of my sexual experience has been with him, and I wouldn't have it any other way. 

I don't say that to be condescending. I dated a few guys who had had other female partners. I wasn't their girlfriend at the time, their choices weren't against me, so what right did I have to complain? None. For me, however, I didn't want to have sex with someone that I wasn't going to marry. I'm an emotional person, and it was painful enough when the relationships ended at all, even without physical affection. I can't imagine how painful it would have been, knowing how undeserving they were of my intimacy. 

I am not, however, my husband's only sexual partner, and he wishes with all his might he could change it. He thoroughly regrets having sex with the other two girlfriends, saying that even in my ignorance, I was more exciting and more pleasurable. However, his past hasn't effected our sex life or our marriage. He already regrets it. I have no cause or reason to make him feel worse for it.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *Created2Write said*: I didn't want to have sex with someone that I wasn't going to marry. I'm an emotional person, and it was painful enough when the relationships ended at all, even without physical affection. I can't imagine how painful it would have been.


This is exactly how I looked at it in my youth as well. I knew I would not handle being just somebody's fling, I would not be able to separate the emotonal from the physical...I don't think that is in my makeup.... I would want to tie myself to that man..claim him as my own and share every living thing with him.... so I would likely be a pain up his a$$ -if all he wanted was sex.... So without knowing what we truly had...I would only be setting myself up for a heartbreak...which would be foolish on my part. 

My Mother also made some really bad choices with men after her divorce and it spiraled her life out of control, she even lost raising me because of it. This is one reason I refused to have anything to do with those who appeared "Players". When a woman gets her hopes up for genuine love, I think some REAL testing is in the works -- to see what the man is really after. 

Though if I found myself single again...after having experienced the love of my lifetime.... I am so sure I would have sex before I married again. I'd likely crave that more than anything else in the world --might even break down & consider a "screw partner" while I am looking for Mr.Right out of desperation....but honestly....I don't think it would work for me, cause I would likely fall for him & destroy out little set up. So he would have to be clued into my very sensitive & Romantic nature of these things before he took me on. That I might want to chop his balls off if he leaves me .... I am just kidding of course.


----------



## Created2Write

I totally enjoyed learning how to please my husband in the ways he wanted to be pleased, and I revel in the fact that I have no other sexual memories besides him. I don't mean any offense to anyone who has had more than one partner(it would be a bit ludicrous if I did, since I'm my husband's third), just for me...I love that I have only had one. I don't think it makes me any less of an experienced lover, nor do I feel that my teenage years and early adulthood were wasted. I actually didn't know how high my drive was until my husband came along. I never masturbated, I rarely thought about sex...heck, I didn't even know what "foreplay" meant until I was nineteen. My husband absolutely loved that about me. He said he found it adorable and endearing. He didn't have to break me of any bad habits(one of his gf's used her teeth on bj's), and now I know his body so well...he couldn't be happier. 

Though, let me add that "virginity" doesn't mean purity or innocence. A virgin could have the dirtiest, most selfish and self-centered mind of anyone, and let me tell ya, I have known some skanks who were virgins. Likewise, a man or woman who has had more than one partner can have a truly selfless, honest and healthy attitude about themselves and others. The physical state of someone's virginity, in and of itself, does not mean that that person is better or worse than someone else.


----------



## FalconKing

You know..I went back to the first page of the thread wondering how it got to the chaos. Thinking I may have came off sexist. But this thread actually derailed rather quickly. I think some people chimed in with only reading the title and not what was actually posted. And once they took their opposing stance battle lines were drawn based on similar experiences or thought processes of users. Sort of like if you are with a friend and he gets into a fight with a group of people. It doesnt matter if he is wrong or right. There is no one to try and point out misunderstandings between the two parties because they see each other only as opposition. Then when someone of an authority shows up(mod or cop with a taser) you are force to find common ground or seek consequences. We are in agreement that is important to be picky for whatever reasons. But we really could have gotten here....OOOHHH.....like page 2.


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## Caribbean Man

Created2Write said:


> Though, let me add that "virginity" doesn't mean purity or innocence.* A virgin could have the dirtiest, most selfish and self-centered mind of anyone, and let me tell ya, I have known some skanks who were virgins.* Likewise, a man or woman who has had more than one partner can have a truly selfless, honest and healthy attitude about themselves and others. The physical state of someone's virginity, in and of itself, does not mean that that person is better or worse than someone else.


:iagree:

I know a married woman right now involved in an affair who was a virgin before she married her husband.
Husband is in a fit and doesn't have the will to fight.
It is her second affair.

Cheating actually says a lot about the mental / emotional state of a person. Being a virgin is absolutely no guarantee.
Being a virgin is simply an indicator of someone's attitude towards sex. A persons attitude could change at anytime.

But if the proper foundation is laid with honesty , openness and
genuine concern for each other's emotional well being, then the chances of infidelity diminish. 
Without that foundation , marriage will fail when, not if the tough times come.


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## that_girl

Write, you did well! At 19, I still hadn't gone any farther than kissing :rofl: I was a late bloomer and I was TERRIFIED of disease.


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## SimplyAmorous

Created2Write said:


> I love that I have only had one. I don't think it makes me any less of an experienced lover, nor do I feel that my teenage years and early adulthood were wasted. I actually didn't know how high my drive was until my husband came along. I never masturbated, I rarely thought about sex...heck, I didn't even know what "foreplay" meant until I was nineteen. My husband absolutely loved that about me. He said he found it adorable and endearing.


 I was different than you, I was HIGHER drive, I was masterbating at probably 11 or 12, and yeah, I needed to do that, just like a guy.... I think because I was so high drive, I felt extra "*ashamed*" for doing this....due to religious teachings -which screwed my mind up some, I looked upon that as sooooo DIRTY....but yeah, felt toooooooo good to stop!! Lots of Boy fantasies too. 

It would have been the only thing in my life back then....I would have outright LIED about had someone asked me, I would have turned as RED as a Lobster, good thing no one asked. Just so damn taboo. I never opened up & told my husband I masterbated till 3 yrs ago -after 6 kids, how rediculous is that !

ALL Guys do that ---but NOT all girls, so I felt even dirtier.


> Though, let me add that "virginity" doesn't mean purity or innocence. A virgin could have the dirtiest, most selfish and self-centered mind of anyone


 Yep, I had a dirty mind but I don't think I was a skank for that, testosterone will do that to you! I've always been HIGH energy, but I believe part of my drive was CAGED back then, too much dirtiness clouded the brain & surpressed it - followed me into marraige some too... Took a little long...but I am FREE now !




> Likewise, a man or woman who has had more than one partner can have a truly selfless, honest and healthy attitude about themselves and others. The physical state of someone's virginity, in and of itself, does not mean that that person is better or worse than someone else.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Gaia

Lol falcon..... cop with a taser.... nice.... lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bahbahsheep

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I know a married woman right now involved in an affair who was a virgin before she married her husband.
> Husband is in a fit and doesn't have the will to fight.
> It is her second affair.
> 
> Cheating actually says a lot about the mental / emotional state of a person. Being a virgin is absolutely no guarantee.
> Being a virgin is simply an indicator of someone's attitude towards sex. A persons attitude could change at anytime.
> 
> But if the proper foundation is laid with honesty , openness and
> genuine concern for each other's emotional well being, then the chances of infidelity diminish.
> Without that foundation , marriage will fail when, not if the tough times come.


I agree with you.

Virgin = purity / innocence is just an urban myth for innocent men who thinks that they have hit the jackpot in life :rofl:


----------



## Created2Write

that_girl said:


> Write, you did well! At 19, I still hadn't gone any farther than kissing :rofl: I was a late bloomer and I was TERRIFIED of disease.


I hadn't gone any further than kissing either. A bf of mine wanted me to try foreplay, and he asked me to on the phone, and I was like, "What's floor play?" ROFL. But he was in the military and dumped me two weeks later. Come to find out he was cheating on me at the time, and lo and behold, he'd had sex with a stripper about a year before, which he conveniently left out of any of our conversations. 

I didn't actually start giving out or getting oral sex until I was twenty, and my husband was that man.


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## that_girl

Yea, I didn't do oral until my mid 20s. I swear, my mom put the fear of god into me about disease. lolol.


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## Mr Blunt

[


> Re: This is why I say a persons sexual history matters


I have not read this whole thread (too long) but
Sexual history does matter to every one that I have spoken to.

There are a lot of sexual histories that makes a difference. Here are just three:


1	Keeps themselves pure before marriage 
(I am talking about keeping yourself pure so that you can give a gift to your spouse; keeping yourself pure for the right reasons)

2	Having an active sexual history with a very limited few; someone you really cared about when you were young, like in your teens.

3	Having an active sexual history with many partners over a period in their teens, 20s and later in life.


Number one 
This one, in my opinion and a lot of other people’s opinion, gives a marriage an advantage that the others do not have. I do not know about women but every man that I talked wants a woman that can give him something that is very special that no other man has had. My guess is that most women feel the same about their man but I am not a woman so I will let the women speak for women.

I do not buy the experienced line that says that experience is an advantage over purity.* I have never heard a man say, boy I am sure glad my wife had sex with those other men so that she could get the experience on how to do all those sexual acts. *Conversely, I have heard a lot of men say that it really bothers them that their wife had sex with other men.

Number two
I realize that keeping your self pure is very difficult and especially when you are young and the emotions are so high and you really care about the other person. It is very understandable that a person would have sex under such circumstances. So if your wife or husband had sex with his/her teenage girlfriend/boyfriend when they cared about each other then that seems to be the norm. You can understand that but it most cases it is a very touchy subject in a marriage. I do not know many married couples that discuss their sex with their previous girlfriends/ boyfriends. That would seem to cause some real hard feelings in most.


Number three
This one has a definite disadvantage in having a long term successful marriage. Again, I do not know about women but every man that has talked to me about this says that they no not want that kind of woman for their wife and to bear their children.

I know that all three above can have a successful marriage but all things being equal, the number one has an advantage over the rest and number two has an advantage over number three. 

I am sure that someone will bring up an exception but as a rule the chances of success for number three is less than for one and two. I would want all my males in my family to pick a number one first then a number two if number one is not possible. I also know that a number three can be successful but they will have many more problems as a venereal rule.

Remember I am talking abort everything being equal except the sexual history.

I think to try and make it look like sexual experience from several sex partners is an advantage over someone that is pure is a ridiculous argument for most men. *How many of you men advocate sexual experience for your daughters and wife?*

One of the reasons that I believe this is that I read the threads about divorce and serious relationship problems on this forum. Many of them are due to people having a lot of experience with several sexual partners for many years in their life.[/COLOR]


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## FalconKing

It sounds like you are speaking from a man's point of view about why it matters for types of women. I know you are a man so that's natural. I wish you had read the thread though, just to be prepared. "*They*" will not like this. "*They*" will come for you.


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## CandieGirl

No, 'they' will not; 'they' are pretty darned fed up of seeing this thread pop up in New Posts!

Here's to all you puritans out there!


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## Thundarr

FrenchFry said:


> Yeah, that post was pretty vomilicious.
> 
> Sorry Falcon. I really thought people were advocating in this thread for personal preference and honesty but it really comes down to the same ol' crap.


Don't throw out the baby with the bath water FrenchFry. I gained a lot of insight from some well thought out comments on this thread.

Blunts comment was hit and miss. Some good, some bad.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> *Don't throw out the baby with the bath water FrenchFry. *I gained a lot of insight from some well thought out comments on this thread.
> 
> Blunts comment was hit and miss. Some good, some bad.


I smell sour grapes.
Residual fumes from another parallel thread?


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By French Fry
> Yeah, that post was pretty vomilicious.
> 
> Sorry Falcon. I really thought people were advocating in this thread for personal preference and honesty but it really comes down to the same ol' crap.



To French Fry
How can you judge my post as dishonest? *You do not know what I honestly believe do you? The fact of the matter is that my post is my honest opinion and I have given some basis for my position which you failed to address. *Do you judge me as dishonest because I do not agree with you or does it rub you wrong for some reason? 

I assume you are a woman. If you are then my question to you is why do you call a man’s opinion about a man’s thinking as *“same ol crap”? *Do you think you know more about what a man thinks on these issues? If you are not a woman then disregard this parargraph.

Rather than just make a general statement about my post as “vomilicious” and *“same ol crap” *why not give an articulate reply with specifics?


These questions are for all and not just French Fry:

1	Would you consider your wife/husband keeping g himself/herself pure as something special in the marriage?

2	Would you rather your wife/husband be experienced with other sexual partners or pure?

3	Do you think that men are looking for a woman that ha had many sexual partners in their 20s and beyond to have their children?

4	How many of you men advocate sexual experience with multiple partners for your daughters and wife?

5	How many women advocate sexual experience with multiple partners for your sons and husband?

These are some of the specific points that I had in my posts. Rather than making general sweeping statements why not post an articulate response?



> "They" will come for you.


Thanks for the warning FalconKing. However I do not mind them coming to me as long as they have a specific articulate response. Isn’t that one of the reasons that we have this forum is so that we can discuss different points of view in an intelligent way? Thanks again FalconKing.


----------



## Deejo

I have to say, much like the whole virgin debate, there comes a point where its simply moot.

I generally end up having the 'number' talk with some of the women I'm intimate with. Others I do not. So for those paying attention, that means I've had more than 2 partners.

Context is everything. If you are a young man on the prowl looking for a suitable female with which to co-mingle your genetic material, and perhaps marry for the first time, I get it.

But if like me, your marriage is in the rearview mirror, and you are in your mid-thirties to forties, than who cares?

I certainly don't. I dated one woman that had been married for 18 years. Husband was her second partner. After her marriage ended, she went on a tear. Slept with probably 8-10 men in less than 2 years.

Didn't bother me. Don't care. We swapped STD panels and went happily about our business. 

Not everyone has a goal of finding the one person to whom they want to commit the remainder of their days. I plan on taking my time getting there and enjoying the journey with those who choose to share physical intimacy while we're on the search.


----------



## Thundarr

Deejo said:


> I have to say, much like the whole virgin debate, there comes a point where its simply moot.
> 
> I generally end up having the 'number' talk with some of the women I'm intimate with. Others I do not. So for those paying attention, that means I've had more than 2 partners.
> 
> Context is everything. If you are a young man on the prowl looking for a suitable female with which to co-mingle your genetic material, and perhaps marry for the first time, I get it.
> 
> But if like me, your marriage is in the rearview mirror, and you ae in your mid-thirties to forties, than who cares?
> 
> I certainly don't. I dated one woman that had been married for 18 years. Husband was her second partner. After her marriage ended, she went on a tear. Slept with probably 8-10 men in less than 2 years.
> 
> Didn't bother me. Don't care. We swapped STD panels and went happily about our business.
> 
> Not everyone has a goal of finding the one person to whom they want to commit the remainder of their days. I plan on taking my time getting there and enjoying the journey with those who choose to share physical intimacy while we're on the search.


I agree with every single bit of this comment.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

Thundarr said:


> I agree with every single bit of this comment.


I agree with what he said too. The hoopla is about a woman with the same mindset being judged harsher. 

If my marriage goes to the crapper I have no intent to remarry. But that's beside the point of this thread. 

If pure is so important I really hope you are still pretty young.


----------



## Created2Write

Mr Blunt said:


> I have not read this whole thread (too long) but
> Sexual history does matter to every one that I have spoken to.
> 
> There are a lot of sexual histories that makes a difference. Here are just three:
> 
> 
> 1	Keeps themselves pure before marriage
> (I am talking about keeping yourself pure so that you can give a gift to your spouse; keeping yourself pure for the right reasons)
> 
> 2	Having an active sexual history with a very limited few; someone you really cared about when you were young, like in your teens.
> 
> 3	Having an active sexual history with many partners over a period in their teens, 20s and later in life.
> 
> 
> Number one
> This one, in my opinion and a lot of other people’s opinion, gives a marriage an advantage that the others do not have. I do not know about women but every man that I talked wants a woman that can give him something that is very special that no other man has had. My guess is that most women feel the same about their man but I am not a woman so I will let the women speak for women.


As a woman who has only been with my husband, while my husband has been with two other women, I can say that I certainly do wish that I had been his only. And he has said the same. He knows that the other girls weren't deserving of him. As for myself, I know how enjoyable it was to learn his body without experience with another, and I often wonder what our sex life would have been if he had been as innocent as I. That said, our marriage has had more good times than it has bad, and the longer we're with each other, the better it becomes. And his former partners have never caused any issues between us. 



> I do not buy the experienced line that says that experience is an advantage over purity.* I have never heard a man say, boy I am sure glad my wife had sex with those other men so that she could get the experience on how to do all those sexual acts. *Conversely, I have heard a lot of men say that it really bothers them that their wife had sex with other men.
> 
> Number two
> I realize that keeping your self pure is very difficult and especially when you are young and the emotions are so high and you really care about the other person. It is very understandable that a person would have sex under such circumstances. So if your wife or husband had sex with his/her teenage girlfriend/boyfriend when they cared about each other then that seems to be the norm. You can understand that but it most cases it is a very touchy subject in a marriage. I do not know many married couples that discuss their sex with their previous girlfriends/ boyfriends. That would seem to cause some real hard feelings in most.
> 
> 
> Number three
> This one has a definite disadvantage in having a long term successful marriage. Again, I do not know about women but every man that has talked to me about this says that they no not want that kind of woman for their wife and to bear their children.
> 
> I know that all three above can have a successful marriage but all things being equal, the number one has an advantage over the rest and number two has an advantage over number three.
> 
> I am sure that someone will bring up an exception but as a rule the chances of success for number three is less than for one and two. I would want all my males in my family to pick a number one first then a number two if number one is not possible. I also know that a number three can be successful but they will have many more problems as a venereal rule.
> 
> Remember I am talking abort everything being equal except the sexual history.
> 
> I think to try and make it look like sexual experience from several sex partners is an advantage over someone that is pure is a ridiculous argument for most men. *How many of you men advocate sexual experience for your daughters and wife?*
> 
> One of the reasons that I believe this is that I read the threads about divorce and serious relationship problems on this forum. Many of them are due to people having a lot of experience with several sexual partners for many years in their life.


----------



## CandieGirl

Mr Blunt said:


> These questions are for all and not just French Fry:
> 
> 1	Would you consider your wife/husband keeping g himself/herself pure as something special in the marriage?
> 
> 2	Would you rather your wife/husband be experienced with other sexual partners or pure?
> 
> 3	Do you think that men are looking for a woman that ha had many sexual partners in their 20s and beyond to have their children?
> 
> 4	How many of you men advocate sexual experience with multiple partners for your daughters and wife?
> 
> 5	How many women advocate sexual experience with multiple partners for your sons and husband?
> 
> 
> Thanks for the warning FalconKing. However I do not mind *them* coming to me as long as they have a specific articulate response. Isn’t that one of the reasons that we have this forum is so that we can discuss different points of view in an intelligent way? Thanks again FalconKing.


1 - Yes, however in these modern times, with my peers, in addition to my own age, it would be extremely rare. A nice idea, though, if you're 20 and being set up in an arranged marriage.

2 - Again, at our advanced ages (me, 42, H 48) I would hope for at least a little experience. 48 y/o virgin male? No thanks.

3 - In my own experience, and taking the experiences from those close to me, it's not something that seems to matter much, as long as the # of partners isn't astronomical. Couples are marrying later, and having children later, so chances are, there will be more history for each.

4 - Hmmm...tough question...without having her go all 'wh0re-like', I would definitely advocate a little experience. I base my answer on my own experiences, mind you.

5 - See the answer to # 2; that would apply here as well, within reason, ie, not partners numbering in the hundreds .

I am one of 'them'.


----------



## Created2Write

Mr Blunt said:


> To French Fry
> How can you judge my post as dishonest? *You do not know what I honestly believe do you? The fact of the matter is that my post is my honest opinion and I have given some basis for my position which you failed to address. *Do you judge me as dishonest because I do not agree with you or does it rub you wrong for some reason?
> 
> I assume you are a woman. If you are then my question to you is why do you call a man’s opinion about a man’s thinking as *“same ol crap”? *Do you think you know more about what a man thinks on these issues? If you are not a woman then disregard this parargraph.
> 
> Rather than just make a general statement about my post as “vomilicious” and *“same ol crap” *why not give an articulate reply with specifics?
> 
> 
> These questions are for all and not just French Fry:
> 
> 1	Would you consider your wife/husband keeping g himself/herself pure as something special in the marriage?




Yes. If my husband had been a virgin when we got together, I would have seen that as something very special. However, his past with his sexual partners has not had much sway over our relationship at all. That could be that he only had two other girls before me, but regardless, I was not his first. And the only reason it even effected our relationship at all was because he initially said he was a virgin, and had only practiced oral sex with his other girlfriends. Only after marriage did I learn the truth, and even then, I'd already suspected the truth for some time. Once I knew the truth, the issue went away completely. 

So, for us, it wasn't the number of his partners...it was the lack of honesty that kept me from the truth. Now, if he had been with many more...the situation could have been different, but I can't say for sure.



> 2	Would you rather your wife/husband be experienced with other sexual partners or pure?


Well, although my husband was not a virgin when we got together...I don't think he was _un_pure. He had every intention of marrying me, even when we'd only been together a few weeks, and he deeply regretted his choices with the other two girls. 

Would I rather him not have slept with them? Yes.



> 3	Do you think that men are looking for a woman that ha had many sexual partners in their 20s and beyond to have their children?


Each man is different. I dated two guys who'd had _many_ sexual partners, and it didn't effect how much I cared for them. The relationships didn't last, as I wasn't going to give my virginity to someone who wasn't going to marry me. My husband dated one girl who was considered promiscuous. She had had many sexual partners, and he cared for her all the same. 

As for what men "look" for, I can't answer as I am not a man. 



> 4	How many of you men advocate sexual experience with multiple partners for your daughters and wife?
> 
> 5	How many women advocate sexual experience with multiple partners for your sons and husband?


I certainly would not advocate such a thing for any of my sons or daughters, but then, my family is rather spiritual. 

I will say that, in regards to things that are important in my marriage, my husband's previous sexual partners was not very high on the list. _Our_ sexual relationship is high on the list, and we have never allowed his sexual past to inhibit our sexual present and future.


----------



## FalconKing

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I know a married woman right now involved in an affair who was a virgin before she married her husband.
> Husband is in a fit and doesn't have the will to fight.
> It is her second affair.
> 
> Cheating actually says a lot about the mental / emotional state of a person. Being a virgin is absolutely no guarantee.
> Being a virgin is simply an indicator of someone's attitude towards sex. A persons attitude could change at anytime.
> 
> But if the proper foundation is laid with honesty , openness and
> genuine concern for each other's emotional well being, then the chances of infidelity diminish.
> Without that foundation , marriage will fail when, not if the tough times come.


Hey CB, 
I'm right a long with you. I know a guy who had a string of tough luck. His first marriage was when he was very young. He and his first wife were each other's first. He then went off into the military. In the one year he was gone his wife slept with around 50 guys. Apparently she was "a bit" curious about other men. 
When he returned she broke down and told him but still wanted to stay married. They compromised by becoming swingers and having a open marriage. Didnt last long..... His second marriage was to a very attractive woman who past he didnt know much about. After the marriage he found out that she slept around a lot and also had a drug problem. During the course of their marriage she fell back into her ways and started giving some doctor sex in exchange for prescription meds. They didnt have any kids together but she took him to the cleaners in the divorce. This is his third marriage. His marriage now seems fine although he's a bit older and his now wife doesnt have much of a sex drive. 

So I guess someone being a virgin doesnt always mean squat. And if he had done the leg work or asked the tough questions the second time around he could have saved himself maybe a lot of grief. Hence, my perspective on this thread.


----------



## Thundarr

FalconKing said:


> Hey CB,
> I'm right a long with you. I know a guy who had a string of tough luck. His first marriage was when he was very young. He and his first wife were each other's first. He then went off into the military. In the one year he was gone his wife slept with around 50 guys. Apparently she was "a bit" curious about other men.
> When he returned she broke down and told him but still wanted to stay married. They compromised by becoming swingers and having a open marriage. Didnt last long..... His second marriage was to a very attractive woman who past he didnt know much about. After the marriage he found out that she slept around a lot and also had a drug problem. During the course of their marriage she fell back into her ways and started giving some doctor sex in exchange for prescription meds. They didnt have any kids together but she took him to the cleaners in the divorce. This is his third marriage. His marriage now seems fine although he's a bit older and his now wife doesnt have much of a sex drive.
> 
> So I guess someone being a virgin doesnt always mean squat. And if he had done the leg work or asked the tough questions the second time around he could have saved himself maybe a lot of grief. Hence, my perspective on this thread.


I don't know how much I would attribute his plight to bad luck. Sounds like the kind of guy who falls in love and puts on the blinders. Or who thinks he can fix people. Hopefully he fixed his "character meter" or just got lucky with this third one.

At the end of the day, we pay for decision making with either reward or hurt. Sometimes we make smart choices and pay anyway.


----------



## Maricha75

Mr Blunt said:


> These questions are for all and not just French Fry:
> 
> 1	Would you consider your wife/husband keeping g himself/herself pure as something special in the marriage?
> 
> 2	Would you rather your wife/husband be experienced with other sexual partners or pure?
> 
> 3	Do you think that men are looking for a woman that ha had many sexual partners in their 20s and beyond to have their children?
> 
> 4	How many of you men advocate sexual experience with multiple partners for your daughters and wife?
> 
> 5	How many women advocate sexual experience with multiple partners for your sons and husband?
> 
> These are some of the specific points that I had in my posts. Rather than making general sweeping statements why not post an articulate response?


1. I absolutely view it as special to keep oneself pure for marriage.

2. Well, my husband was a virgin and I was not. I wish I had saved myself for him. So, no, I do not prefer experience over staying pure.

3. I think that as we get older, it is unlikely that either side is looking for virgins/purity if looking for someone in the same age range. If a 50 year old virgin is required, I think the view should be changed.

4. As the wife, I would have preferred one and only one...my husband, only. As for my daughter, I intend to stress the importance of keeping herself for marriage, and to search for a man who shares that value. But, that is my religious belief.

5. Again, I do not advocate multiple sexual partners for my sons nor for my husband. I was my husband's only sexual partner. And I will teach my boys the same as my daughter... remain pure for marriage.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Originally posted by Mr Blunt: These questions are for all and not just French Fry:

1	Would you consider your wife/husband keeping g himself/herself pure as something special in the marriage?

2	Would you rather your wife/husband be experienced with other sexual partners or pure?

3	Do you think that men are looking for a woman that ha had many sexual partners in their 20s and beyond to have their children?

4	How many of you men advocate sexual experience with multiple partners for your daughters and wife?

5	How many women advocate sexual experience with multiple partners for your sons and husband?

These are some of the specific points that I had in my posts. Rather than making general sweeping statements why not post an articulate response?

_______________________________________________________________________________________

I'll give you my answers. Everyone's answers are different. We all like something different, so here goes:


 If you mean pure as in "virginal", no. We are all human with needs.

2. See above.

3. I don't think the number of partners comes into play unless the couple have widely differing numbers. Children are a blessing no matter what the numbers.

4. I want the same for my daughter as my wife in amount of sexual partners. Whatever makes them happy. The number, I think, is better if it is somewhere near equal for each person in the relationship. Knowing this requires openness and honesty which are hard to find. Love, trust, openness and honesty are most important in any relationship.

5. Can't speak for the women on #5.


----------



## tobio

Fascinating thread. Really interested by the value judgements some people have: like people who have had "a lot" of sex don't value themselves/their body. Never considered this before.


----------



## heartsbeating

I haven't followed this whole thread, just popped in every so often, as I really think it's such a personal thing and I don't like the judgement that gets thrown around sometimes - different to just sharing one's experience and personal preferences.

When hubs and I were at make or break, and I was considering what life would be without him, I'm aware that I'm the odd one out amongst my peers, having only had one lover. If anything, I wondered if THAT would be considered weird. But it's my story and I like my story, so who cares? I'm not religious, I wasn't staying a virgin for marriage (as I didn't think I'd get married anyway), I just wanted to share the sexual intimacy with someone I knew would cherish me as I cherished him. 

If we hadn't stayed together - I think my attitude would have been similar to how it was all those years ago. Who really knows though? 

I wasn't my husband's first. It doesn't matter to me.


----------



## lovelygirl

CandieGirl said:


> I have great difficulty gleaning anything useful from those who've only had one partner in life, so I'll stay away from that particular conviction.


just because someone has had only one partner doesn't mean they know less.
Because you said you always kept on dating selfish and prick guys in the past. That means you hardly learned anything from your mistakes given that you used to repeat them all over again. 
Going through hundreds of relationships and making the same mistakes is the same as being inexperienced or not having been in a relationship at all and worse than having had just one partner with/from whom you've learned everything you need to know. 
The number of the relationships in the past doesn't define your maturity level in the relationship and the experience you've had.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lovelygirl

SimplyAmorous said:


> I was different than you, I was HIGHER drive, I was masterbating at probably 11 or 12, and yeah, I needed to do that, just like a guy.... I think because I was so high drive, I felt extra "*ashamed*" for doing this....due to religious teachings -which screwed my mind up some, I looked upon that as sooooo DIRTY....but yeah, felt toooooooo good to stop!! Lots of Boy fantasies too.
> 
> It would have been the only thing in my life back then....I would have outright LIED about had someone asked me, I would have turned as RED as a Lobster, good thing no one asked. Just so damn taboo. I never opened up & told my husband I masterbated till 3 yrs ago -after 6 kids, how rediculous is that !
> 
> ALL Guys do that ---but NOT all girls, so I felt even dirtier. Yep, I had a dirty mind but I don't think I was a skank for that, testosterone will do that to you! I've always been HIGH energy, but I believe part of my drive was CAGED back then, too much dirtiness clouded the brain & surpressed it - followed me into marraige some too... Took a little long...but I am FREE now !
> 
> 
> 
> :iagree::iagree::iagree:


Lol you remind me of myself . I started masturbating at the age of 7. Yeah too soon. I know lol. 
And haven't stopped since then. Until a few years ago I was ashamed to admit it ... but not anymore lol. 
None of the people in my real life know it. It's not their business anyway. But if my next partner would ask. I'd have no problem admitting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Caribbean Man

I've always heard that in life,its the little things in life that counts.

Before courting my wife,I placed very * little* value emotional connection and sex. I viewed sex as just that,sex.
I had quite a few partners, even a threesome.
Got together with my wife and she placed very high value on emotional connection and sex. She was a virgin by CHOICE.
And she is older than me.
Then I made a * little * adjustment to my thinking,and a huge adjustment to my value system.
Seventeen years later ,I can look back and say if I hadn't made that 
* little * adjustment , I would have been where the rest of my friends back then who shared my old values, are today.

*Everyone of them are either divorced, or living in a broken marriage.*
Yup,
Its the * little * things in life that counts.
But that's just my opinion,
Hey,
Whatever *works * for you, then by all means.........

ETA.
I have also learned that I should be very wary of people who advocate something they have never tried.
Experience , not theory ,is the best teacher.


----------



## anony2

I think that looking at not having sex before marriage as purity is detrimental to the marriage in more ways than one. 

First of all, by definition pure means without blemish, so does that mean that if you have had sex, that you are therefore blemished? 

Second of all, if you see sex in that way, aren't you setting yourself up to be with a partner who does not LIKE sex or has been conditioned to not like sex? 

Athol Kay, author of Married Man Sex Life talks about this in his blog here. 

Is it any wonder that some people come to this forum complaining that their partners are low drive when religion itself has been the driving factor behind such ideology as purity?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Getting to Mr Blunts questions directed to us all -below....

I am a through & through







*Romanticist*







I have always wanted, desired & even prayer for the "one & only" scenerio .... I consider myself very fortunate to have found my husband as young as I did (at 15).... otherwise...no doubt.... I would have had more sexual experiences with other boys --because I was VERY HORNY ......but I believe I still would have put on the brakes at Intercourse at least till my early 20's .....because those dreams dancing in my head - giving myself to my one & only - meant so damn much to me. I can be a bit stubborn in some things. 

I would have realized though, with the yrs rolling past...let's say by age 23 .....if no man found himself smitten with me by then, found me marirage material....I must be doing something terribly wrong...this "fairy tale" dream would slowly have to be put down...a fork in it's







. 

At such a point, I feel I would have been rethinking what the hell I was doing.... I do feel being YOUNG makes a HUGE difference in these matters... young with Romantic notions dancing in our heads... that was all ME back then. 













> 1	Would you consider your wife/husband keeping himself/herself pure as something special in the marriage?


 Most definitely Special - my husband calls it a "special bond", I have referred to it as "sacred" though he wouldn't go that far. 

We both hold this in our







's very highly ....that no matter what we go through ...we just can't imagine EVER trampeling this...no matter the temptation....We feel this holds us a little tighter somehow ...It is something priceless, very rare in todays society & very precious to both of us. Some may downplay it's imporance, but for us, we UPplay it's importance.

For one of us to break this Trust that we share... a peice of us would be lost forever, something irrevocable, that we could never get back. It would be like ripping a peice of our own hearts out. 



> 2	Would you rather your wife/husband be experienced with other sexual partners or pure?


 I'd rather be His 1st.... because for me...it was never about how good someone is in bed...I feel much of this goes on instinct anyway....I was in love with the idea.....the thrill of the newness, the vulnerabilty, the awkwardness....of being deeply & emotionaly in love , feeling those waves of passion with someone we want to give our all too...feeling wholly accepted & wanted / cherished -regardless if he knows what the hell he is doing -- is







to me. The romance of genuine Love -before engaging in sex - is very very powerful to me. 




> 3	Do you think that men are looking for a woman that has had many sexual partners in their 20s and beyond to have their children?


 I can only speculate as I am not a man. I do feel EVERY man wants a woman who LOVES sex...and the fact some are virgins could so easily = LOW DRIVE....if RESTRAINT is a peice of cake for her, doesn't bother her, she is more than likely LOW DRIVE and/or repressed. Both huge huge hurdles after the vows... I will always feel the #1 motivator for nealy ALL men is not virginity ---- but *Physical Attraction*.... then they go from there to what is acceptable to them or not... the chemisty, the passion, the compatibility. 

And no man wants to marry a LOW DRIVE PRUDE, it would be a prison sentence after the vows. Hate to say it, but likely more virgins are just that in comparison to those who have enjoyed some sexual experiences. 



> 4	How many of you men advocate sexual experience with multiple partners for your daughters and wife?


 My husband does not want this for our daughter... We care that she is treated respectfully and lovingly by the men she chooses to give her heart to.... We understand it is her life, not ours....she is free to make her own choices -I give her this.... but I insist she understands all the responsibilities & consequences of those choices... I did a thread on this >>> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/family...-sex-relation-love-her-emotions-her-life.html



> 5	How many women advocate sexual experience with multiple partners for your sons and husband?


 My husband nor my sons believe in a "Double Standard"... 2 of our oldest wear "Silver purity rings" -because they desire to wait till marraige -- Hearing how my oldest feels about this is very romantically touching . If he finds a woman who shares how he feels & loves him back.... I will be a river of tears on his Wedding Day, I will be so damn happy for him. Overjoyed. We'll see how it plays out. Not many of us get our Fairy Tales, but it is sweet to dream anyway...at least while we are young. 

We have no desire to see our boys engaging sexually with various women without a commitment to marry - a ring on their fingers ....Given how we are, what we have taught them, I don't see this happening. This unfortunetly may LOWER their "*sex rank*" with many women!! That is the sad part of it. We will continue to teach them integrity & honestly in all things and how emotionally connected love & commitment is a very manly trait to offer a woman he loves.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

lovelygirl said:


> Lol you remind me of myself . I started masturbating at the age of 7. Yeah too soon. I know lol.
> And haven't stopped since then. Until a few years ago I was ashamed to admit it ... but not anymore lol.
> None of the people in my real life know it. It's not their business anyway. But if my next partner would ask. I'd have no problem admitting.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For all I know, it was earlier than 11 for me too, I know it wasn't as early as 7 though... I say







LovelyGirl ! 

Even if I kept a diary, that would NEVER NEVER have been put in there!! If something brushed up against me in bed, and gave me that tingle... it was ON. Oh well. Dirty dirty dirty little me! 

I am hardly embarrassed to speak of anything sexual....now that the "shame" root has been destroyed & I feel I got a handle of How vital, lifegiving, precious and beautiful this act is for all men & women, I just feel strongly there is a time & a place for such beauty...depending of what we want in this act, what it means to us personally. 

I speak so openly on this forum some may think I am half crazy. Given where I came from though ~ this is an amazing transformation. 

I remember maybe 6 yrs ago, making a comment to my husband how utterly rediculous it was that I still felt "embarrased" for him to see me naked. Some things should have never never been. Repression is one of those things. 

Good for you LovelyGirl, never be embarrassed of your sexually -to enjoy pleasure, it is GOD GIVEN to men & women ...for our enjoyment.


----------



## that_girl

If my sex is pure, we're doin something wrong. I/we like it dirty and soiled.

I've been with my husband for 5 years now. Once I met him, that was it...we were together. We were just 'together'. Pure or not, the sex was amazing in all the ways sex can be amazing. That was a big plus.


----------



## that_girl

And don't most children masturbate? I know I was young when I started, and my daughters too.

Maybe they are just high drive like myself. lol. Gotta have some talks with my 13 year old. :lol:


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

that_girl said:


> And don't most children masturbate? I know I was young when I started, and my daughters too.
> 
> Maybe they are just high drive like myself. lol. Gotta have some talks with my 13 year old. :lol:


I am betting they do BUT I didn't until I was 20 or 21. In fact I hadn't even had an orgasm till then and by that time I had already been with several different men and had a baby. I was more in tune with pleasing a man than I was myself by that time. Sad to think! I might not have worried with the majority of the sexual partners I took on if I had discovered it sooner if I am to be honest. I think the "what am I missing" feeling I was getting after having sex was part of my drive to try a "new" (guy) one out.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

that_girl said:


> And don't most children masturbate? I know I was young when I started, and my daughters too.
> 
> Maybe they are just high drive like myself. lol. Gotta have some talks with my 13 year old. :lol:


HIGH DRIVE People can not help but masterbate, they will be climbing the walls, antsy, they will be moody.... all of it. 
I've always said in my own marriage, if I went too long between "getting it" repressed or not.....I would chase his butt down -cause I simply *HAD* to have it!!  

I've noticed a pattern -just reading many many threads by men who are suffering with Low Drive wives, near sexless marraiges .....overwhelmingly most weren't boy crazy in their youth, lusting after the Hot actor, rock star, high school football player, and never touched themselves...just didn't have the urge... these women also do not initiate. They are lacking some Testosterone some of the rest of us women have. 

I'm sure it is possible that some were so busy with school work or preocupied elsewhere, maybe they just weren't in tune with their sexuality YET.... but I couldn't help but notice the connection early on reading here. -in what these men say about their wives, when asked if they ever masterbated.


----------



## that_girl

I think I saved my virginity until 21 because I was masturbating. :rofl: Who needed a stinky guy I didn't even like, when I could get myself off and didn't have to worry about calling myself the next day. :rofl:


----------



## lovelygirl

HopelesslyJaded said:


> In fact I hadn't even had an orgasm till then .


Not even through self-pleasure?


----------



## lovelygirl

that_girl said:


> I think I saved my virginity until 21 because I was masturbating.


lol.
My girlfriends look at me like a weirdo because I'm almost 25 and still virgin and because of this they think I don't know what an orgasm feels like.
It's just they they don't know I can get off by myself and if they knew, they would call me crazy.
One of them has had many sex partners but she has never felt the orgasm. At this point, I call myself lucky. I mean...who needs sex when you can't get pleasure out of it? To me it's pointless.
I'd rather get self-pleasure all day then have someone penetrating me without making me orgasm.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

lovelygirl said:


> Not even through self-pleasure?


NO the sentence prior to the one you quoted stated I did not masturbate until I was 20 or 21. I honestly did not know. I was very high drive though and still am. I think I kept thinking that it was suppose to happen during intercourse. And of course knowing what I know now (i don't have vaginal orgasms and I have to have clitoral stimulation) I know what was missing. Sad thing is, I kept finding guys who were either clueless as well or didn't care so I didn't figure this out till I had been around the block several times.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

lovelygirl said:


> lol.
> My girlfriends look at me like a weirdo because I'm almost 25 and still virgin and because of this they think I don't know what an orgasm feels like.
> It's just they they don't know I can get off by myself and if they knew, they would call me crazy.
> *One of them has had many sex partners but she has never felt the orgasm*. At this point, I call myself lucky. I mean...who needs sex when you can't get pleasure out of it? To me it's pointless.
> I'd rather get self-pleasure all day then have someone penetrating me without making me orgasm.


If you have had this kind of conversation with her, have you thought to maybe clue her in? Maybe she is just ignorant to it. Help a friend out and share your wisdom.


----------



## Maricha75

lovelygirl said:


> Not even through self-pleasure?


I was slightly younger than Jaded...I was 18? 19? And it was manual stimulation from a guy. I never tried masturbation until I met my husband....online. Once we were able to be together, it stopped....until we went through a bad time in our marriage, due to the medications the doctors put him on. As long as we have sex regularly, I feel no urge to masturbate. The thing is, he knows I get antsy, so even if HE isn't in the mood, he will at least give me oral.

Yes, he was a virgin. But until he started with these medications (which are being switched around now, due to various reasons), he was higher drive. I never considered that I had a higher drive than he UNTIL he started having problems because of the meds. We were evenly matched... on the higher end of the spectrum.

It was mentioned by someone above about religion playing a part in LD, I believe? How do you explain my husband and myself then? I love sex. So does(did) he (and working on getting him to love it again!). His LD was caused by his medication. I am willing to try pretty much anything we are physically capable of doing, as long as it involves ONLY the two of us. Neither of us feel repressed by our religion. Do I wish I had saved myself completely for him? Yes. Am I glad certain acts have been with him and him alone? Absolutely.


----------



## MrsKy

2ntnuf said:


> These questions are for all and not just French Fry:
> 
> 1	Would you consider your wife/husband keeping g himself/herself pure as something special in the marriage?
> Hell naw. :rofl: My husband is nearly forty years old! If he was a virgin at this age, I would have run the other way.
> 
> 2	Would you rather your wife/husband be experienced with other sexual partners or pure? Experienced. I prefer older men because their years of sexual experience makes them more practiced lovers.
> 
> 3	Do you think that men are looking for a woman that ha had many sexual partners in their 20s and beyond to have their children? Men with madonna/wh0re complexes are not, but thankfully I married someone well adjusted.
> 
> 4	How many of you men advocate sexual experience with multiple partners for your daughters and wife? I know most men want their daughters pure forever; my father is no exception. I never paid attention to his condemning rants because he is a cheater. Parents who cheat lose their moral credibility with children. When my dad would imply that I was loose, I would shut him up with "At least I am not married and sleeping around!"
> 
> 5	How many women advocate sexual experience with multiple partners for your sons and husband? Again, I wanted a man who is experienced. Every man I slept with who had very few partners was awkward in bed. No thanks!
> 
> These are some of the specific points that I had in my posts. Rather than making general sweeping statements why not post an articulate response?
> 
> 
> I'll give you my answers. Everyone's answers are different. We all like something different, so here goes:
> 
> 
> If you mean pure as in "virginal", no. We are all human with needs.
> 
> 2. See above.
> 
> 3. I don't think the number of partners comes into play unless the couple have widely differing numbers. Children are a blessing no matter what the numbers.
> 
> 4. I want the same for my daughter as my wife in amount of sexual partners. Whatever makes them happy. The number, I think, is better if it is somewhere near equal for each person in the relationship. Knowing this requires openness and honesty which are hard to find. Love, trust, openness and honesty are most important in any relationship.
> 
> 5. Can't speak for the women on #5.


By the way, I was masturbating at AGE FOUR. I referred to an orgasm as "the tickles." ?Yeah, I was already learning about my body then. My mom would shame me when she caught me, but that just made me more careful.


----------



## that_girl

The word "pure" bugs me.

Just because someone has had sex doesn't mean they aren't pure  I shower. I came to my husband with pure intentions.

When I was a virgin and dating, I was a big ol' betch. Mind effer. Not so pure.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

lovelygirl said:


> lol.
> My girlfriends look at me like a weirdo because I'm almost 25 and still virgin and because of this they think I don't know what an orgasm feels like.
> It's just they they don't know I can get off by myself and if they knew, they would call me crazy.
> One of them has had many sex partners but she has never felt the orgasm. At this point, I call myself lucky. I mean...who needs sex when you can't get pleasure out of it? To me it's pointless.
> I'd rather get self-pleasure all day then have someone penetrating me without making me orgasm.


This reminds me of me & my best friend...known her since 9th grade.... of course the masterbation topic never came up when we were young....She got pregnant early , the guy left before the baby was born, got pregnant again a few yrs later, this father did the right thing & married her a couple months later....

A few yrs ago...openly talking about SEX and our experiences, she confided in me how she has NEVER had an orgasm in her life... I was shocked...Like [email protected]#$%^&*

She tells me she has no idea what that feeling is like ....I know she thinks I am a sex fiend.....but ya know , without experiencing that- how can someone "get it". I can attest.... she has very very little interest in sex/ guys...in her youth she just wanted marriage -like the rest of us...so she did what the guy wanted- feeling this would reel him in.

Her husband did end up cheating on her ....all she wanted from him was ..... Acts of Service , always complaining he doesn't help her around the house....... she never needed him sexually....and well, he was a MAN, he wanted her to want him....and have the robust spicy sex life. Alot of tension over these things ...they were never a good match. 

Sex with someone you deeply love is way beyond the excitment of masterbation. I find that hollow in comparison...so does my husband. 

Yeah, LovelyGirl, once you give it up - one thing is for sure...you won't want to go backwards . It can be a blessing to not know exactly what we are missing -a little innocence there -if it preserves us for "the one". And it sure takes the EDGE off in the meantime. 

I found it disgraceful when Jocelyn Elders got canned for speaking openly about Masterbation - story here - The Dreaded "M" Word


----------



## MrsKy

Masturbation is a few fries. Married sex is a decadent banquet.


----------



## Caribbean Man

My goodness people,
When will it stop?

The word pure in this CONTEXT simply means that a female that has not had sex with a man.
It does not mean a female who has not been " sullied " by having sex with a man.[ how archaic!] If it meant that , then women who are married can be considered as " sullied ."

Juxtapose this against the term,
" Virgin territory. " 
This refers to something / somewhere real or imagined ,that has not been explored as yet . A new frontier.
It is NOT a reference to ANYTHING remotely sexual.

C O N T E X T U A L I T Y.


----------



## lovelygirl

HopelesslyJaded said:


> If you have had this kind of conversation with her, have you thought to maybe clue her in? Maybe she is just ignorant to it. Help a friend out and share your wisdom.


lol. You're right but my friend thinks that masturbating is not okay and they think people who masturbate are perverts. So I'm not even going to discuss this with her.
Although, once I tried to tell her about how her boyfriend should give her clitoral stimulation, finger her or even have some foreplay before they start having intercourse, she started giving me a weird look so I stopped. Theoretically they don't know half of the stuff that I know, although I have no practical knowledge.
But I'm sure, they suck at practical knowledge too. All they know is just penetration and that's what they think sex is all about. 
It's just that they don't know how to educate themselves about sex. Obviously, they don't expect lessons from a virgin like me ..anyway. 
They just underestimate me. With my theoretical knowledge they would make great practice.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Maricha75 said:


> It was mentioned by someone above about religion playing a part in LD, I believe? How do you explain my husband and myself then? I love sex. So does(did) he (and working on getting him to love it again!). His LD was caused by his medication. I am willing to try pretty much anything we are physically capable of doing, as long as it involves ONLY the two of us.


I think LOW DRIVE has ALL to do with our Hormones , some of us are higher in Test -this is what gives us that LUSTY feeling seeking it out. My husband is a lower Testosterone man, he has very little hair on his chest and he didn't masterbate while we were married (did when single ALOT though)- some husbands would blow the roof off the house -they would NOT have such "restraint" due to their higher levels of Test..if they wasn't getting enough sexually from their wives.....this also causes them to be more aggressive in other ways. My husband has always been very laid back, calm temperment. 

Many MEDS mess with our hormone levels, zapping the good (the sex drive) along with the bad. 

Religion messed with my head and made me feel GUILTY and shameful about masterbation.....but it wasn't all religion, what I seen in the world cheapened it also.... So on both ends, my mind was scrambling...what is this all about. It didn't make me low drive but it caused a divided mind that kept me much more *inhibited* than I otherwise would have been....had I taken the bull by the horns, lost that faulty thinking earlier in my life & marriage. 

Reading some secular books about sex with Pictures and all would have been far better for me than reading what Christians wrote, as showing any skin was again...taboo..feeding into what I was struggling with already ..... So what is wrong with showing what a sexual position looks like....to help us learn. Never find that in a religious book.


----------



## lovelygirl

MrsKy said:


> My mom would shame me when she caught me, but that just made me more careful.


You were caught too?????

I was caught too!!!! Several times!
Back when I was 7, I didn't even know what I was doing and I would touch myself even in front of other people. :rofl:
Once mom caught and asked "what are you doing?" And I answered "I don't know ..just touching.." 


By the age of 12, a friend of mine taught me about the word/meaning of "masturbation" and that's when I realized what I had been doing all those years.


----------



## that_girl

Caribbean Man said:


> My goodness people,
> When will it stop?
> 
> The word pure in this CONTEXT simply means that a female that has not had sex with a man.
> It does not mean a female who has not been " sullied " by having sex with a man.[ how archaic!] If it meant that , then women who are married can be considered as " sullied ."
> 
> Juxtapose this against the term,
> " Virgin territory. "
> This refers to something / somewhere real or imagined ,that has not been explored as yet . A new frontier.
> It is NOT a reference to ANYTHING remotely sexual.
> 
> C O N T E X T U A L I T Y.


So, no pure males in here  ?

I just don't buy it. you can say what YOU are meaning it to mean, but I don't buy it.
Don't tell me that a woman can have anal sex, oral sex, whatever sex and not VAGINAL sex and still be "pure", by your terms.

Sorry.


----------



## that_girl

My mom caught me at 5 and told me to go wash my hands. lol. 

My older daughter was crazy about it. We just told her to go to her room (ages 2 through 5)...after that, who knows.

I think parents need to talk to their kids more about sex and sexuality.


----------



## MrsKy

Caribbean Man said:


> My goodness people,
> When will it stop?
> 
> The word pure in this CONTEXT simply means that a female that has not had sex with a man.
> It does not mean a female who has not been " sullied " by having sex with a man.[ how archaic!] If it meant that , then women who are married can be considered as " sullied ."
> 
> Juxtapose this against the term,
> " Virgin territory. "
> This refers to something / somewhere real or imagined ,that has not been explored as yet . A new frontier.
> It is NOT a reference to ANYTHING remotely sexual.
> 
> C O N T E X T U A L I T Y.


Maybe it will stop when members stop posting awful generalizations about sexually experienced women.


----------



## Caribbean Man

MrsKy said:


> *Maybe it will stop when members stop posting awful generalizations about sexually experienced women. *


Maybe you can pull up one from this thread to show us an example?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I can't say I was ever "caught".... even by my husband for 19 long yrs --when he went to sleep, he was out....... when I opened up & told him I masterbated, after hearing he didn't - we were both shocked !! Suddenly we realized just how badly we missed each other over the years ......he told me, in reference to waking him from his sleep ....."that was important! ....that would be like waking me up to tell me the house was on fire". :rofl:

Who knew ! I felt he'd rather sleep-he was always more TIRED than me.... I was thinking his drive was low, and he was thinking mine was..... how we missed each other was pathetic, so learn from our blunders, always talk about SEX --it's healthy and good.


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> *So, no pure males in here  ?*
> 
> I just don't buy it. you can say what YOU are meaning it to mean, but I don't buy it.
> Don't tell me that a woman can have anal sex, oral sex, whatever sex and not VAGINAL sex and still be "pure", by your terms.
> 
> Sorry.


Have you EVER heard a male being referred to as pure?

Men have traditionally been considered as " impure ", dirty minds and always wanting sex.
Do men complain?
No.

Can a female get pregnant without having an orgasm?
Yes.
Can a male impregnate a female without having an orgasm?
No

The question [ of male purity ] simply,
Does not arise.


C O N T E X T U A L I T Y.


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> So, no pure males in here  ?
> 
> *I just don't buy it. you can say what YOU are meaning it to mean, but I don't buy it.*
> Don't tell me that a woman can have anal sex, oral sex, whatever sex and not VAGINAL sex and still be "pure", by your terms.
> 
> Sorry.


You don't have to buy it.

pure/pyo͝or/
Adjective:	
Not mixed or adulterated with any other substance or material.
Without any extraneous and unnecessary elements: "pure art devoid of social responsibility".

This is the dictionary's reference to the word pure. Nothing sexual here.


----------



## that_girl

What are you even talking about?

Woman have dirty minds! :rofl: Men can be virgins until marriage.

C O N T E X T U A L I T Y.

But you seem to like to judge women? Maybe I am wrong. I saw you had a 3some in your day...would you have married your wife if she had? Probably not. I hope the women in your 3some got some good men who didn't judge. 

Have fun with your talk about being pure. I'ma go text my husband some nasty texts.


----------



## Thundarr

Let me say for the record that I DO THINK sexual history matters but at the same time after hearing "that_girl" and "Hopelessly" and other's stories in this thread, I think their husbands are very lucky to have GOOD WOMEN.

This view comes across so personal that we miss then gray area.


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> *What are you even talking about?
> 
> Woman have dirty minds! :rofl:* Men can be virgins until marriage.
> 
> C O N T E X T U A L I T Y.
> 
> But you seem to like to judge women? Maybe I am wrong. I saw you had a 3some in your day...would you have married your wife if she had? Probably not. I hope the women in your 3some got some good men who didn't judge.
> 
> Have fun with your talk about being pure. I'ma go text my husband some nasty texts.


You said it!
Not me.

BTW, I have posted MANY times that my wife is teh ONLY virgin I have ever had sex with.
I had NEVER liked having sex with inexperienced women or little girls. my first sexual experience was with a woman who was more than 10 years older than me.
I NEVER put a value on sex until I met my wife.

BTW, One of those women in my threesome did get married...
Her husband divorced her.
She cheated on him.
The other one is a corporate lawyer, married with children in Thailand.
Had you read my post on Thursday, you would have seen where I said that virginity is absolutely no guarantee of a woman staying faithful.
It is also factual that scientific studies has shown that certain types of men and women tend to be unfaithful.
Women with a high number of partners rank high
Men who are adrenaline junkies and high achievers also ranks high

Nobody's forcing you to buy anything,after all experience is the best teacher.

You have fun with your sexting , I'm having fun listening to Frédéric Chopin Pianoconcerto No.1 in E minor.

And I'm still getting laid when she arrives home later


----------



## that_girl

I loooove Chopin  I studied classical piano for my whole childhood and played his music in many competitions  Enjoy!


----------



## MrsKy

Imagine this scenario:

A wife wants her husband to tease her sexually before sex, by sending racy emails or texts. 

He chooses to listen to classical music instead. :rofl::rofl:

A cultured man is too mature and sensible to believe double standards or participate in threesomes. Yuck!


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> I loooove Chopin  I studied classical piano for my whole childhood and played his music in many competitions  Enjoy!


I have lots of classical pieces by Chopin, and other greats

I usually play his piano concertos softly in the background whilst I'm giving her a sensual massage.
It sets the perfect ambiance along with some myrrh smoldering in a clay burner.


----------



## MrsKy

Caribbean Man said:


> Maybe you can pull up one from this thread to show us an example?


If you take the time to go back and read, you will see what I am talking about. 

I shouldn't have to show an example as it has been done to death.


----------



## that_girl

We listen to Hardcore and then get it done right. :rofl: If only we were still the hottie punks we used to be. lolol.


----------



## Caribbean Man

MrsKy said:


> Imagine this scenario:
> 
> A wife wants her husband to tease her sexually before sex, by sending racy emails or texts.
> 
> He chooses to listen to classical music instead. :rofl::rofl:
> 
> A cultured man is too mature and sensible to believe double standards or participate in threesomes. Yuck!


Does it even make sense even answering this?

Who says that my wife wants me to send racy texts to her RIGHT NOW?

Who said that we don't send racy texts to each other?

Who said that sending racy texts or emails was the ONLY way to tease my wife or any other woman?



Good grief!


----------



## Caribbean Man

MrsKy said:


> If you take the time to go back and read, you will see what I am talking about.
> 
> *I shouldn't have to show an example as it has been done to death. *



I think if a person made an accusation,then natural justice demands that they bring proof.
Yes?
Just Sayin'


----------



## Thundarr

MrsKy said:


> Imagine this scenario:
> 
> A wife wants her husband to tease her sexually before sex, by sending racy emails or texts.
> 
> He chooses to listen to classical music instead. :rofl::rofl:
> 
> A cultured man is too mature and sensible to believe double standards or participate in threesomes. Yuck!


And logical debate eludes us once more. Searching for fault in the messenger does not invalidate the message.


----------



## CandieGirl

lovelygirl said:


> *just because someone has had only one partner doesn't mean they know less*.
> Because you said you always kept on dating selfish and prick guys in the past. That means you hardly learned anything from your mistakes given that you used to repeat them all over again.
> Going through hundreds of relationships and making the same mistakes is the same as being inexperienced or not having been in a relationship at all and worse than having had just one partner with/from whom you've learned everything you need to know.
> The number of the relationships in the past doesn't define your maturity level in the relationship and the experience you've had.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I beg to differ... And I'm not aware of one single person (in my life) that's gone through hundreds of relationships...get real.


----------



## that_girl

I didn't learn everything I needed to know from one partner. All I learned from partners before my husband was that I HAD TO get someone who was HD. omg. Fighting about sex is the WORST.


----------



## CandieGirl

Thundarr said:


> Let me say for the record that I DO THINK sexual history matters but at the same time after hearing "that_girl" and "Hopelessly" and other's stories in this thread, I think their husbands are very lucky to have GOOD WOMEN.
> 
> This view comes across so personal that we miss then gray area.


This is a good post; to me you point out that despite an 'unfavorable' history, for lack of a better word..., a sexually experienced person CAN be a good partner.


----------



## that_girl

The way I look at it, I was 31 when I met my husband. And I had a child.  LOL! Had I been weird about sex, he wouldn't have dated me...he's HD, and very open about his sexuality. He was 24 at that time, so it's not like he asked me out because he thought I was "pure". :rofl: 

We are who we are. Enjoy life. There is someone out there that will appreciate you for you. If i had married someone who kept bringing up my "unfavorable" past, we'd not be married long. I look at the now and the future...if you live in the past, you are missing out on life.


----------



## Caribbean Man

CandieGirl said:


> This is a good post; to me you point out that despite an 'unfavorable' history, for lack of a better word..., a sexually experienced person CAN be a good partner.


I cannot remember reading any post here where men said that a sexually experienced woman would not make a good partner.

In fact Thundarr himself had posted that both him and his wife were very active before and he has no problem with that.

The OP NEVER stated that he wanted a woman who was not sexually experienced .

Most of the other male posters also said the same.


----------



## that_girl

There were some posts stating that women who had more sexual experience were more prone to cheat. So...I dunno, maybe that's where Candie is getting her thoughts from.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

They did try to say a sexually experienced woman was less likely to be faithful though CM. But at the same time seemingly saying that sexually experienced men wouldn't be as likely to cheat.


----------



## CandieGirl

that_girl said:


> The way I look at it, I was 31 when I met my husband. And I had a child.  LOL! Had I been weird about sex, he wouldn't have dated me...he's HD, and very open about his sexuality. He was 24 at that time, so it's not like he asked me out because he thought I was "pure". :rofl:
> 
> We are who we are. Enjoy life. There is someone out there that will appreciate you for you. If i had married someone who kept bringing up my "*unfavorable*" past, we'd not be married long. I look at the now and the future...if you live in the past, you are missing out on life.


I have high doubts that you would have continued even dating someone like that, if I can judge by your posts! 

Brings to mind the man I so briefly dated...'list boy', I like to call him...presented me with a bulletted list of all the things that were wrong with me/that he didn't like about me. Instant dumpage!:rofl:


----------



## Caribbean Man

HopelesslyJaded said:


> *They did try to say a sexually experienced woman was less likely to be faithful though CM.* But at the same time seemingly saying that sexually experienced men wouldn't be as likely to cheat.


They were not _trying _to say that,

Its scientifically proven.

Just like African American people are more prone to Type2 Diabetes.


The only logical question in both examples is WHY.
Then a serious discussion can begin


----------



## that_girl

So then you wonder how someone can think that people were saying that experienced women don't make good partners?

:rofl:

Omigosh.


----------



## CandieGirl

Scientifically proven, mon cul...have you forgotten about all the folks out there who lie or who just don't get caught?


----------



## that_girl

CandieGirl said:


> I have high doubts that you would have continued even dating someone like that, if I can judge by your posts!
> 
> Brings to mind the man I so briefly dated...'list boy', I like to call him...presented me with a bulletted list of all the things that were wrong with me/that he didn't like about me. Instant dumpage!:rofl:


Yea, I will say, that my 3 really big relationships in life were ended because of a few reasons but the BIG reason, for me, was the lack of sex. I never knew men could have such low drive. They were happy with 2 times a week or so. :scratchhead: Ugh. not working for me.

Thankfully, I found my match.

Had I married any one of those other men, I would surely be in a sexless marriage and MISERABLE.


----------



## CandieGirl

that_girl said:


> So then you wonder how someone can think that people were saying that experienced women don't make good partners?
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> Omigosh.


No effing kidding! What about the one who said I hadn't learned anything because I kept on repeating the same mistake over and over again...oh, no...she didn't think she was better than me, that's all in my head! :rofl:


----------



## CandieGirl

that_girl said:


> Yea, I will say, that my 3 really big relationships in life were ended because of a few reasons but the BIG reason, for me, was the lack of sex. I never knew men could have such low drive. They were happy with 2 times a week or so. :scratchhead: Ugh. not working for me.
> 
> Thankfully, I found my match.
> 
> Had I married any one of those other men, I would surely be in a sexless marriage and MISERABLE.


Most of my relationships ended because I discovered cheating. Man, when will I learn???


----------



## CandieGirl

For the record, my H is LD...extremely LD at times. He often says to me "I've never HAD a lot of sex in my life prior to you!". He doesn't think people are really like that, out there, screwing all the time...he has a very low number (compared to me). I remember ages ago, posting that I'd had 'bait and switch' pulled on me! Lots of the male members got a good laugh about that, as they say it's usually the other way around...but more to the point, is H's lack of sexual experience does impact the marriage. But he's a good student


----------



## Caribbean Man

CandieGirl said:


> Scientifically proven, mon cul...have you forgotten about all the folks out there who lie or who just don't get caught?


Have you ever wondered why basketball stars , football stars, Rap Stars , Race Car drivers , in fact ANY MALE PROFESSIONAL ATHLETE marriage always end up on the rocks?
Because they CHEAT.

That too is scientifically proven.

Magic Johnson,
Tiger Woods,
Kobye Braynt,
Michael Jordan,
As**ey Cole,
A Rod,
Steeve Mc Nair,
And many more CHEATED.

All of these cases went public. No lying there.
So maybe we can look at the men who fall into the group that are highly likely to cheat, first, draw conclusions, and then focus on women , to make it gender equal.

Like I said before, its scientifically proven the question is WHY.


----------



## CandieGirl

Sorry, CB, I don't follow celeb gossip (can't stand it!) and I don't base my reality on what sports heros or idiot celebrities are doing...

Is that really what you mean by 'scientifically proven'? I though you had some cheating lab rats to back that story up, man! LMAO!


----------



## Thundarr

HopelesslyJaded said:


> They did try to say a sexually experienced woman was less likely to be faithful though CM. But at the same time seemingly saying that sexually experienced men wouldn't be as likely to cheat.


I think more a promiscuous should be looked at for both men and women and I think it means pretty much the same thing. Studies to draw some conclusions to this and marital success.

Where the problem comes in is that this factors into men's selection process more than it does women. I know it's a dead horse but I think it directly correlates to a mans evolution to insure his children are his own.


----------



## Thundarr

CandieGirl said:


> Scientifically proven, mon cul...have you forgotten about all the folks out there who lie or who just don't get caught?


It's not proven in any sense of the word. It's merely a correlation that more promiscuous partners have a higher divorce rate. Nothing more than that.


----------



## Thundarr

CandieGirl said:


> Most of my relationships ended because I discovered cheating. Man, when will I learn???


I can completely understand your frustration from that. They were the ones messing around and then you get criticized.

I think that's part of the point actually. You have not evaluated risk very well in past relationships and possibly have not recognized signs that was evident in their character.

Things like history of cheating. IMHO


----------



## Thundarr

CandieGirl said:


> But he's a good student


. And what a wonderful class to excel in.


----------



## Caribbean Man

CandieGirl said:


> Sorry, CB, I don't follow celeb gossip (can't stand it!) and I don't base my reality on what sports heros or idiot celebrities are doing...
> 
> Is that really what you mean by 'scientifically proven'? I though you had some cheating lab rats to back that story up, man! LMAO!



Men who cheat show elevated testosterone levels

http://www.psychologicalscience.org...es-to-infidelity-does-power-trump-gender.html

What say you?


----------



## CandieGirl

And it all depends on how one defines promiscuity, IMHO.

Some might consider having had 10 partners promiscuous...for others, 100. To me, 10 is 'lowish'. But again, just my opinion.

This is just one of those things that people are just never going to agree on. I can only draw on my own experiences...I know what I have been through/learned...and personally, I consider myself less likely to cheat because of my history.


----------



## Thundarr

CandieGirl said:


> And it all depends on how one defines promiscuity, IMHO.
> 
> Some might consider having had 10 partners promiscuous...for others, 100. To me, 10 is 'lowish'. But again, just my opinion.
> 
> This is just one of those things that people are just never going to agree on. I can only draw on my own experiences...I know what I have been through/learned...and personally, I consider myself less likely to cheat because of my history.


There is a large part of this debate that most of us agree on. If we focus on the definition of promiscuous then you are correct.


----------



## CandieGirl

Thundarr said:


> I can completely understand your frustration from that. They were the ones messing around and then you get criticized.
> 
> I think that's part of the point actually. You have not evaluated risk very well in past relationships and possibly have not recognized signs that was evident in their character.
> 
> Things like history of cheating. IMHO


It isn't something most people will admit to, Thundarr..."Oh, BTW, I cheated on my wife the entire time I was married to her." probably gets hung up on/walked away from a lot!

Usually, it's something you find out later on in the relationship; and by then, if you're involved and a woman, you think you can change them! :rofl:

One thing that most people in this thread are missing? When I was in my 20s, I knew far less about relationships and didn't know how to evaluate risk! Kind of like expecting a surgeon to be able to operate before he goes through med school, don't you think?


----------



## anony2

Caribbean Man said:


> Men who cheat show elevated testosterone levels
> 
> http://www.psychologicalscience.org...es-to-infidelity-does-power-trump-gender.html
> 
> What say you?


Neither of these studies have anything to do with this topic of promiscuity and cheating. 

One is about testosterone levels and cheating, the other has to do with power and cheaters.


----------



## Caribbean Man

CandieGirl said:


> *And it all depends on how one defines promiscuity, IMHO.
> 
> Some might consider having had 10 partners promiscuous...for others, 100. To me, 10 is 'lowish'. But again, just my opinion.*
> 
> This is just one of those things that people are just never going to agree on. I can only draw on my own experiences...I know what I have been through/learned...and personally, I consider myself less likely to cheat because of my history.


Well,
We are now making progress here.

For a woman who is over 30 and single,10 is a very LOW number.
For an 17 year old single girl 10 would be a high number.
Then we can also extrapolate and look at other indicators to determine what is culturally acceptable and what may not be.

None of this is a judgement call on anybody. 
Everybody reserves the right to accept someone based on THEIR personal value system.


----------



## CandieGirl

Caribbean Man said:


> Men who cheat show elevated testosterone levels
> 
> http://www.psychologicalscience.org...es-to-infidelity-does-power-trump-gender.html
> 
> What say you?


I say the same thing that I say to everyone else who uses the internet: you can find anything you want to hear, whether it's true or not 

But I will give them a look-see. Hmmmm...a little gender specific, judging by the first title...


----------



## Caribbean Man

anony2 said:


> Neither of these studies have anything to do with this topic of promiscuity and cheating.
> 
> One is about testosterone levels and cheating, the other has to do with power and cheaters.


I don't think we were discussing promiscuity and cheating.
We haven't even used the word promiscuity.
We were discussing what types of persons,male and female are most liable to cheat.

We haven't even reached a definition on what is promiscuity as yet.

And as I have said umpteen times before virginity is absolutely no guarantee that a woman will not cheat.


----------



## anony2

that_girl said:


> *There were some posts stating that women who had more sexual experience were more prone to cheat.* So...I dunno, maybe that's where Candie is getting her thoughts from.





Caribbean Man said:


> They were not _trying _to say that,
> 
> *Its scientifically proven.*
> 
> Just like African American people are more prone to Type2 Diabetes.
> 
> 
> The only logical question in both examples is WHY.
> Then a serious discussion can begin





Caribbean Man said:


> *I don't think we were discussing promiscuity and cheating.*
> We haven't even used the word promiscuity.
> We were discussing what types of persons,male and female are most liable to cheat.
> 
> We haven't even reached a definition on what is promiscuity as yet.


I am pretty sure that promiscuity is exactly what was being discussed and again, neither of your "scientific studies" had anything to do with "women who had more sexual experience were more prone to cheat" because both of your scientific studies were regarding men.


----------



## Caribbean Man

anony2 said:


> I am pretty sure that promiscuity is exactly what was being discussed and again, neither of your "scientific studies" had anything to do with "women who had more sexual experience were more prone to cheat" because both of your scientific studies were regarding men.


Since when does more sexual experience = promiscuity?


----------



## CandieGirl

anony2 said:


> Neither of these studies have anything to do with this topic of promiscuity and cheating.
> 
> One is about testosterone levels and cheating, the other has to do with power and cheaters.


I was just about to pipe in exactly this! :iagree:

Nothing at all to do with a person's sexual history / cheating....

But I'm sure there's SOMETHING on the internet to back it up...


----------



## Caribbean Man

CandieGirl said:


> I was just about to pipe in exactly this! :iagree:
> 
> Nothing at all to do with a person's sexual history / cheating....
> 
> But I'm sure there's SOMETHING on the internet to back it up...


Ok then,
This one is from the British Journal of Psychology.
Vol 96,#3 ,Aug 2005.

What predicts cheating in a relationship? - Barking up the wrong tree

Short and sweet and TO THE POINT.


----------



## anonim

Caribbean Man said:


> You don't have to buy it.
> 
> pure/pyo͝or/
> Adjective:
> Not mixed or adulterated with any other substance or material.
> Without any extraneous and unnecessary elements: "pure art devoid of social responsibility".
> 
> This is the dictionary's reference to the word pure. Nothing sexual here.


How can you invoke the dictionary definition of pure and then call 'context?'


----------



## CandieGirl

Unfaithful activities while dating hardly compare to cheating while married...


----------



## Caribbean Man

CandieGirl said:


> Unfaithful activities while dating hardly compare to cheating while married...


Would you marry a man who cheated on you while you dated him?
Or would you even advise your daughter or any female to do so?


----------



## larry.gray

CandieGirl said:


> Unfaithful activities while dating hardly compare to cheating while married...


I see little difference for me. Either way would be a deal breaker for me.

In some ways cheating while dating would be an even bigger red flag. Why are they feeling the need to step out while still in the relationship's honeymoon phase?

Then again YMMV based on how quick someone falls into bed while dating. If they sleep with someone on the third date then I don't expect that they would think dating two at once a big deal. If they wait 3-6 months before having sex, having sex with two at once would be a huge red flag.


----------



## that_girl

larry.gray said:


> I see little difference for me. Either way would be a deal breaker for me.
> 
> In some ways cheating while dating would be an even bigger red flag. Why are they feeling the need to step out while still in the relationship's honeymoon phase?
> 
> Then again YMMV based on how quick someone falls into bed while dating. If they sleep with someone on the third date then I don't expect that they would think dating two at once a big deal. If they wait 3-6 months before having sex, having sex with two at once would be a huge red flag.


Yea, I can see that...but...not every situation is the same.

I waited a long time with my 1st to have sex. I waited at least a month for others. One MAN made me wait almost a year  :rofl: needless to say, we had sex issues.

I slept with my husband on date 3. Couldn't wait. Glad I didn't. There was SO MUCH sexual attraction, it was amazing.


----------



## anonim

Caribbean Man said:


> My goodness people,
> When will it stop?
> 
> The word pure in this CONTEXT simply means that a female that has not had sex with a man.
> It does not mean a female who has not been " sullied " by having sex with a man.[ how archaic!] If it meant that , then women who are married can be considered as " sullied ."
> 
> Juxtapose this against the term,
> " Virgin territory. "
> This refers to something / somewhere real or imagined ,that has not been explored as yet . A new frontier.
> It is NOT a reference to ANYTHING remotely sexual.
> 
> C O N T E X T U A L I T Y.





MrsKy said:


> Maybe it will stop when members stop posting awful generalizations about sexually experienced women.





Caribbean Man said:


> Maybe you can pull up one from this thread to show us an example?





MrsKy said:


> If you take the time to go back and read, you will see what I am talking about.
> 
> I shouldn't have to show an example as it has been done to death.





Caribbean Man said:


> I think if a person made an accusation,then natural justice demands that they bring proof.
> Yes?
> Just Sayin'


From the thread "http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/53913-defining-sl-t-4.html#post1000428 "

Here's your natural justice. Enjoy.



Caribbean Man said:


> A woman's intelligence and value of self dictates to her who she should share her body with. It helps her set personal boundaries and limits.
> 
> If she has no such limits,and has sex with anybody who she is sexually attracted to on a primal level,
> Then what does that say about her intelligence and sense of self?


----------



## larry.gray

that_girl said:


> Yea, I can see that...but...not every situation is the same.
> 
> I waited a long time with my 1st to have sex. I waited at least a month for others. One MAN made me wait almost a year  :rofl: needless to say, we had sex issues.
> 
> I slept with my husband on date 3. Couldn't wait. Glad I didn't. There was SO MUCH sexual attraction, it was amazing.


It sounds like you're arguing my point stronger not weaker!

Even with your 3 weeks example, if he cheated I'd bet you'd make a HUGE deal out of it right now?

PS: You sound like wifey and I. Both of us had been in rather long relationships prior and neither of us "went all the way." 3 weeks later we were.


----------



## anony2

Caribbean Man said:


> Ok then,
> This one is from the British Journal of Psychology.
> Vol 96,#3 ,Aug 2005.
> 
> What predicts cheating in a relationship? - Barking up the wrong tree
> 
> Short and sweet and TO THE POINT.


"Using a multi-perspective vignette design, we explored predictors of young peoples' (N=119) propensity to engage in unfaithful activities *while dating*. Demographic measures, a datding investment model, and measures of functional and dysfunctional impulsivity were used to predict inclination to engage in each of two extradyadic activities (*kissing and sexual activity*). The results of moderated multiple regression analyses *revealed that a respondent's number of sexual partners, level of dysfunctional impulsivity, satisfaction with current relationship, and quality of relationship alternatives significantly predicted inclination to engage in both of the extradyadic activities*. Consistent with previous findings, gender only showed significant predictive value in relation to extradyadic sex inclination. Moreover, the association between sex, love, and marriage interacted with gender in the prediction of both extradyadic activities and interacted with commitment in the prediction of extradyadic sex inclination. Suggestions for future research in this area are offered in light of these new findings.

"Gender has been found to relate signiﬁcantly to measures of inﬁdelity. It has been
found that *male college students report a signiﬁcantly greater incidence of prior
extradyadic sexual activities than females* (Hansen, 1987; Wiederman & Hurd, 1999)."

"Participants who had experienced sexual intimacy with a greater number of partners
also reported greater extradyadic sex and extradyadic kissing inclination. This
inclination may be attributable to the individuals’ skills at recognizing sexual advances
or recruitment of sex partners. *Moreover, it does not appear to be the result of an
individual’s tendency towards sexual experimentation, since we failed to detect a
signiﬁcant relationship between age of ﬁrst sexual encounter* (a reﬂection of sexual
experimentation tendencies) and extradyadic inclination. Therefore, the ‘learned
advantage’ explanation proposed by Treas and Giesen (2000) would appear a more
viable explanation for the higher extradyadic inclination of individuals with more
extensive sexual histories, *as opposed to an orientation towards sexual experimentation*, as suggested by Reiss et al. 1980."

* We also found that males reported a greater inclination to engage in extradyadic sex
than females*, although no signiﬁcant effect of gender was found in the prediction of
extradyadic kissing inclination. Our ﬁndings are consistent with those of Wiederman
and Hurd (1999), who found that the incidence of extradyadic sex was greater for males
than females, but that no gender difference applied to extradyadic romantic kissing.
However, the results are not consistent with Hansen’s (1987) ﬁnding that males were
more likely than females to have engaged in extradyadic erotic kissing"

"However,
Baumeister’s hypothesis regarding females’ attitude-behaviour incongruence was based
on females’ global attitudes towards sexual issues, rather than being a more personal
measure of morals such as the sex-love-marriage measure used in the present study. This
may explain the attitude-behaviour discrepancy noted by Baumeister if, for example,
females are reporting a general disapproval of premarital sex *(i.e. an attitude that might
hold when judging the behaviour of others)*,_ when in fact they themselves are engaging
in premarital sex and for whatever reason might hold a personally relevant attitude that
premarital sex is acceptable_"


http://www.ywedo.com/publications/411.pdf


----------



## Caribbean Man

Would someone please tell that guy above [ anonim] me that I'm not taking him on.


----------



## larry.gray

The post is too difficult to read anyway so why bother....


----------



## that_girl

larry.gray said:


> It sounds like you're arguing my point stronger not weaker!
> 
> Even with your 3 weeks example, if he cheated I'd bet you'd make a HUGE deal out of it right now?
> 
> PS: You sound like wifey and I. Both of us had been in rather long relationships prior and neither of us "went all the way." 3 weeks later we were.


 three weeks? what? LOL! date 3. I think it was 5 days. :rofl: I didn't even care! I would have done him on the 1st date but he didn't even kiss me! He said he wanted to wait. kissed me on date two. And then...yea. From the moment I met him, I had to have him  But I was older. I'd been in some relationships. I knew what I wanted.

But if he cheated RIGHT NOW, I'd scratch his eyes out. It's been almost 5 years since our first time. Both he and I just knew that was it. He even said later (when we were dating for about 2 months, before we were pregnant) that he just knew this was it for him. :rofl: I said, well, don't sound so depressed about it! LOL! But for the both of us, we found someone who matched us sexually AND we could talk to each other. He said he'd never talked so long as he did with me...which was weird because I'm a talker.


----------



## anonim

Caribbean Man said:


> Since when does more sexual experience = promiscuity?


You have a very short memory CM


----------



## anonim

CandieGirl said:


> Unfaithful activities while dating hardly compare to cheating while married...


disagree. it still hurts.


----------



## Caribbean Man

larry.gray said:


> The post is too difficult to read anyway so why bother....



Actually,
This is what the original, condensed article said;

*The results of moderated multiple regression analyses revealed that a respondent's number of sexual partners, level of dysfunctional impulsivity, satisfaction with current relationship, and quality of relationship alternatives significantly predicted inclination to engage in both of the extradyadic activities. *
Consistent with previous findings, gender only showed significant predictive value in relation to extradyadic sex inclination. Moreover, the association between sex, love, and marriage interacted with gender in the prediction of both extradyadic activities and interacted with commitment in the prediction of extradyadic sex inclination. Suggestions for future research in this area are offered in light of these new findings.


The word Extradyadic refers to a wide range of behaviors occurring outside of a committed relationship.


----------



## that_girl

CandieGirl said:


> Unfaithful activities while dating hardly compare to cheating while married...


I somewhat see what she's saying.

While I did leave my ex for someone, I wasn't sexual with the other person until I was free. However, i was never married, my ex never wanted to marry me, and he told me I'm only the mother of his child. lol. Fine.

In my relationships after that I would lose interest and break up but always had someone in my sights. That's dating, no? I waited a LONG TIME to take vows because I KNEW I wouldn't mean them. So I dated and figured out myself and what I wanted and didn't want. It was fun and....sometimes tiring...sometimes sad. Hearts were broken, mine included. Oh well.

When I took vows, I meant every word. I wouldn't have said them had I not meant them. I read them every morning because I've painted them on our wall over our wedding pic across from our bed. Who reads them daily? People should.

Maybe people cheated in the past on people, learned from it and wouldn't dream of doing it again.


----------



## that_girl

anonim said:


> You have a very short memory CM


Yes. I am noticing that.


----------



## anony2

Caribbean Man said:


> Actually,
> This is what the original, condensed article said;
> 
> *The results of moderated multiple regression analyses revealed that a respondent's number of sexual partners, level of dysfunctional impulsivity, satisfaction with current relationship, and quality of relationship alternatives significantly predicted inclination to engage in both of the extradyadic activities. *
> Consistent with previous findings, gender only showed significant predictive value in relation to extradyadic sex inclination. Moreover, the association between sex, love, and marriage interacted with gender in the prediction of both extradyadic activities and interacted with commitment in the prediction of extradyadic sex inclination. Suggestions for future research in this area are offered in light of these new findings.
> 
> 
> The word Extradyadic refers to a wide range of behaviors occurring outside of a committed relationship.


I cited the actual report, you cited a blog. 
aka, I came with a wolf, you brought a dog. 

Next time, do proper research. :smthumbup:


----------



## anonim

Caribbean Man said:


> Would someone please tell that guy above [ anonim] me that I'm not taking him on.


I'm right here, tell me yourself.


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> In my relationships after that I would lose interest and break up but always had someone in my sights. That's dating, no? I waited a LONG TIME to take vows because I KNEW I wouldn't mean them. So I dated and figured out myself and what I wanted and didn't want. It was fun and....sometimes tiring...sometimes sad. Hearts were broken, mine included. Oh well.
> 
> *When I took vows, I meant every word. I wouldn't have said them had I not meant them. I read them every morning because I've painted them on our wall over our wedding pic across from our bed. Who reads them daily? People should.*


:iagree:

That's what I'm talking about!
You decided to change the direction of your life. You didn't get married for a meal ticket.
There are some women who instead of learning from their unfortunate experiences continue harbouring a value system that is counter productive to marriage vows, right into marriage.
They get bored easily and they cheat.
They never placed high value on who or why they slept with those they slept with.

If you don't value your sexuality and exclusivity with ONE man ,then your marriage cannot work.


----------



## anony2

anonim said:


> I'm right here, tell me yourself.


Grown men need to learn to talk for themselves, if he can't, tell him to get in the kitchen and make you a sammich.


----------



## anonim

anony2 said:


> Grown men need to learn to talk for themselves, if he can't, tell him to get in the kitchen and make you a sammich.


:rofl:


----------



## that_girl

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> That's what I'm talking about!
> You decided to change the direction of your life. You didn't get married for a meal ticket.
> There are some women who instead of learning from their unfortunate experiences continue harbouring a value system that is counter productive to marriage vows, right into marriage.
> They get bored easily and they cheat.
> They never placed high value on who or why they slept with those they slept with.
> 
> If you don't value your sexuality and exclusivity with ONE man ,then your marriage cannot work.


Some men too. But I'm sure you meant that


----------



## Caribbean Man

anony2 said:


> I cited the actual report, you cited a blog.
> aka, I came with a wolf, you brought a dog.
> 
> Next time, do proper research. :smthumbup:


My goodness,
So what is the difference between what the excerpt posted on the blog says,and what the actual report from which the excerpt on the blog was taken said?


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> Some men too. But I'm sure you meant that


 Well it goes without saying.

I am such a man.


----------



## anony2

that_girl said:


> Some men too. But I'm sure you meant that


Surely you aren't saying that MEN should be held to the same standards as some of them are trying to say women should hold themselves to? 

I wonder...if men had many sexual partners before they got married, does that mean that they did not value themselves, therefore they are more likely to cheat on their wives?


----------



## anony2

Caribbean Man said:


> My goodness,
> So what is the difference between what the excerpt posted on the blog says,and what the actual report from which the excerpt on the blog was taken said?


Didn't you read it? It says that sexual experimentation was not a cause of extradyadic sex. Next time, if you are going to cite a report, you should actually READ the report. 


"Participants who had experienced sexual intimacy with a greater number of partners
also reported greater extradyadic sex and extradyadic kissing inclination. This
inclination may be attributable to the individuals’ skills at recognizing sexual advances
or recruitment of sex partners. Moreover,* it does not appear to be the result of an
individual’s tendency towards sexual experimentation*, since we failed to detect a
signiﬁcant relationship between age of ﬁrst sexual encounter (a reﬂection of sexual
experimentation tendencies) and extradyadic inclination. 


*Therefore, the ‘learned
advantage’ explanation proposed by Treas and Giesen (2000) would appear a more
viable explanation for the higher extradyadic inclination of individuals with more
extensive sexual histories, as opposed to an orientation towards sexual experimentation, as suggested by Reiss et al.* 1980."


http://www.ywedo.com/publications/411.pdf


----------



## Caribbean Man

anony2 said:


> Surely you aren't saying that MEN should be held to the same standards as some of them are trying to say women should hold themselves to?
> 
> I wonder...if men had many sexual partners before they got married, does that mean that they did not value themselves, therefore they are more likely to cheat on their wives?


Obviously you haven't read the entire thread.

Whenever you have the time and go through it .
It was said on MANY occasions that women are supposed to hold men to the exact , same , high standards.


----------



## that_girl

Maybe the men are not intelligent either  lolol.

And no, I didn't marry for a meal ticket :rofl: WOW! That tickled me.


----------



## Caribbean Man

anony2 said:


> Didn't you read it? It says that sexual experimentation was not a cause of extradyadic sex. Next time, if you are going to cite a report, you should actually READ the report.
> 
> 
> "*Participants who had experienced sexual intimacy with a greater number of partners
> also reported greater extradyadic sex and extradyadic kissing inclination. This
> inclination may be attributable to the individuals’ skills at recognizing sexual advances
> or recruitment of sex partners. Moreover,* it does not appear to be the result of an
> individual’s tendency towards sexual experimentation, since we failed to detect a
> signiﬁcant relationship between age of ﬁrst sexual encounter (a reﬂection of sexual
> experimentation tendencies) and extradyadic inclination.
> 
> 
> *Therefore, the ‘learned
> advantage’ explanation proposed by Treas and Giesen (2000) would appear a more
> viable explanation for the higher extradyadic inclination of individuals with more
> extensive sexual histories, as opposed to an orientation towards sexual experimentation, as suggested by Reiss et al.* 1980."
> 
> 
> http://www.ywedo.com/publications/411.pdf


Maybe you didn't read the first part.

If a person is HD, it does not mean that they are more inclined to experiment with more partners.


----------



## lovelygirl

Caribbean Man said:


> Well,
> We are now making progress here.
> 
> For a woman who is over 30 and single,10 is a very LOW number.
> For an 17 year old single girl 10 would be a high number.
> Then we can also extrapolate and look at other indicators to determine what is culturally acceptable and what may not be.
> 
> None of this is a judgement call on anybody.
> Everybody reserves the right to accept someone based on THEIR personal value system.


I agree. Nobody is ever going to agree when it comes to defining promiscuity . To my standards, for a 30 year old woman, the number 10 is HIGH. But that's just me.


----------



## anony2

Caribbean Man said:


> Maybe you didn't read this part.


Actually, I did. Do you know what it is saying?

It is saying that Learned Advantage is the cause and not sexual experimentation. 

So that means, a woman could have sex with as many partners as she wanted to, and if she did not care if other men were coming on to her because she loved her husband and only him, then she is no more apt to have an affair than anyone else... ACCORDING TO COLLEGE STUDENTS who were not married, whom they polled. 

:lol:


----------



## Caribbean Man

anonim said:


> I'm right here, tell me yourself.


Ok,'Let me tell you myself.
I will not be responding to any of your posts until you learn to respectfully debate.

Whenever you can do that,
Then we can debate.

Fair enough?


----------



## anony2

Caribbean Man said:


> Obviously you haven't read the entire thread.
> 
> Whenever you have the time and go through it .
> It was said on MANY occasions that women are supposed to hold men to the exact , same , high standards.


Then let's apply this ideology...
going by what you say, your own wife should have had higher standards and not married you, since you had prior sexual experiences. Does this mean that she has low standards and has self esteem problems because you were promiscuous and she married you anyways?


----------



## Thundarr

CandieGirl said:


> Unfaithful activities while dating hardly compare to cheating while married...
> 
> 
> Caribbean Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would you marry a man who cheated on you while you dated him?
> Or would you even advise your daughter or any female to do so?
Click to expand...

The character of the person cheating is exposed in either case. This does not mean they can not learn and change but make no mistake that they are showing character traits that no one wants in a married partner.


----------



## lovelygirl

Caribbean Man said:


> And as I have said umpteen times before virginity is absolutely no guarantee that a woman will not cheat.


That's totally true!! 
A man should not base his value for a woman on her virginity or on the lack of it. The fact that I'm a virgin doesn't make me better than other women of my age who aren't.

See...I remember dating someone in the past whose interest in me grew once he knew I was a virgin. This was kind of a turn off in the sense that he wouldn't see other sides of me and my personality but he was pretty focused on the fact that he could have been my first.  
Obviously, I didn't give him this "pleasure".


----------



## Caribbean Man

anony2 said:


> Then let's apply this ideology...
> going by what you say, your own wife should have had higher standards and not married you, since you had prior sexual experiences. Does this mean that she has low standards and has self esteem problems because you were promiscuous and she married you anyways?


My wife REFUSED to have sex before we were married.
That got me to CHANGE my VALUE SYSTEM.
In case you were not following,
Just read That_Girl's last 5 posts about the CHANGES she made and why she now VALUES sex with her husband so much.

Anybody could change.
Some are NOT WILLING TO CHANGE.
Therin lies the problem.

ETA. 
Can you explain the term self esteem?
I seem to remember you agreeing with a post that said that a person in themselves possesed no intrinsic value


----------



## lovelygirl

CandieGirl said:


> Unfaithful activities while dating hardly compare to cheating while married...


It all depends on the agreement.
If two people decide to have an open dating, then activities with other people would be okay.
If two people are exclusively dating each other, then there's no room for outside activities.


----------



## anonim

Caribbean Man said:


> Ok,'Let me tell you myself.
> I will not be responding to any of your posts until you learn to respectfully debate.
> 
> Whenever you can do that,
> Then we can debate.
> 
> Fair enough?


I honestly don't think I can respectfully debate with someone who holds other people to standards they themselves do not maintain and then denigrates them for not meeting those standards.

Hypocrisy is not endearing, its demeaning.


----------



## that_girl

WHOA! LOL I didn't change anything.

I valued sex with the people I slept with. Sex wasn't something I threw around, but I didn't keep it locked up either. I had wonderful relationships with the men I slept with...some were bfs, some just friends.

I don't know why you think I changed. I enjoyed my life, didn't marry before I was ready and took my vows seriously. 

That's not change, that was just my reality. Kinda like how I partied before I had kids but in the back of my mind, I knew once i had children, I'd quit partying. I quit partying the day I got my positive pregnancy test with my oldest daughter. Wasn't even a big deal.

Just because someone has sex partners before marriage doesn't mean then need to change HOW they view sex. Sex can be viewed all sorts of ways at different times. 

But with a past, it is being implied that these women aren't worth getting involved with...however, your wife, CM, looked past your past...and gave you a chance. Should she have written you off and figured you were going to cheat, etc? Whether or not you changed doesn't matter...you wife didn't know you would change.


----------



## anony2

Caribbean Man said:


> No need to be offended.
> As long as you KNOW that you don't fall into that set.
> It simply does not apply.
> 
> *Scientific research has shown that women who have a high number of partners before marriage are more likely to cheat.*
> It never said that ALL women who have a high number WILL cheat.
> *Scientific research also says that men who are high achievers and driven by adrenaline are more likely to cheat*
> It never said that all such men cheat.
> 
> The generalization works both ways, and it can be helpful in predicting behavioural patterns, explaining why so that people could make proper decisions.


Note how you left out MULTIPLE SEX PARTNERS when it came to men? Why was that since the study actually said that men who had multiple sexual experiences were more apt to cheat than women? 



Caribbean Man said:


> My wife REFUSED to have sex before we were married.
> That got me to CHANGE my VALUE SYSTEM.
> In case you were not following,
> Just read That_Girl's last 5 posts about the CHANGES she made and why she now VALUES sex with her husband so much.
> 
> Anybody could change.
> Some are NOT WILLING TO CHANGE.
> Therin lies the problem



That isn't what you said above. You said nothing about changing, you said and I quote "Scientific research has shown that women who have a high number of partners before marriage are more likely to cheat."

And since this applies to men also, then this means that YOU are more apt to cheat since you had multiple sex partners. 

Again, does this mean that since your wife married you knowing that you had multiple sexual partners, that she had lower self esteem or lower values or did you not tell her of your past sexual promiscuous acts?


----------



## that_girl

I just want to be clear that I didn't have some moment of repentance about my sexuality or past. lollll...I don't know why that's a big deal to me, but it is. My husband wouldn't expect it anyway. My past is mine.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

Ok I'm confused. Is there another definition of the acronym ETA? Because I have always known it to mean Estimated Time of Arrival. I just saw it used and have seen it before on this forum and it makes no sense to me.


----------



## Caribbean Man

anony2 said:


> Note how you left out MULTIPLE SEX PARTNERS when it came to men? Why was that since the study actually said that men who had multiple sexual experiences were more apt to cheat than women?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That isn't what you said above. You said nothing about changing, you said and I quote "Scientific research has shown that women who have a high number of partners before marriage are more likely to cheat."
> 
> And since this applies to men also, then this means that YOU are more apt to cheat since you had multiple sex partners.
> 
> Again, does this mean that since your wife married you knowing that you had multiple sexual partners, that she had lower self esteem or lower values or did you not tell her of your past sexual promiscuous acts?



Ok let me simplify it for you.

Africans males are more prone to type 2 diabetes.
I am African and I DO NOT have type 2 diabetes.

I made certain lifestyle changes ,and that has DECREASED my chances significantly.

ETA. About my wife's decision to marry me.
June this year made it S E V E N T E E N years.
Can you beat that?
Again,
Experience is the best teacher.


----------



## Caribbean Man

HopelesslyJaded said:


> Ok I'm confused. Is there another definition of the acronym ETA? Because I have always known it to mean Estimated Time of Arrival. I just saw it used and have seen it before on this forum and it makes no sense to me.


ETA = Edit To Add


----------



## lovelygirl

HopelesslyJaded said:


> Ok I'm confused. Is there another definition of the acronym ETA? Because I have always known it to mean Estimated Time of Arrival. I just saw it used and have seen it before on this forum and it makes no sense to me.


Yeah. I've been wondering the same. the way ETA is used here confuses me.


----------



## that_girl

HopelesslyJaded said:


> Ok I'm confused. Is there another definition of the acronym ETA? Because I have always known it to mean Estimated Time of Arrival. I just saw it used and have seen it before on this forum and it makes no sense to me.


Edited To Add


----------



## anony2

Caribbean Man said:


> Ok let me simplify it for you.
> 
> Africans males are more prone to type 2 diabetes.
> I am African and I DO NOT have type 2 diabetes.
> 
> I made certain lifestyle changes ,and that has DECREASED my chances significantly.
> ETA. About my wife's decision to marry me.
> June this year made it S E V E N T E E N years.
> Can you beat that?
> Again,
> Experience is the best teacher.


Does that mean that you will NEVER GET type 2 diabetes though? I have known a man that was married for 60 years and cheated on his wife for 30 of those years...and they were both virgins when they got married to each other. 17 years is nothing and it sure isn't proof that you will not cheat. 

And sorry, but that study did not say anything about any changes, it just says that men are more apt to cheat than women and since you fall under 2 if not 3 of those categories, you are more apt to cheat than just a person that had prior sexual experience. 
1. you are male
2. you had prior sexual experience
3. level of dysfunctional impulsivity

So does this mean that your wife had to lower her values in order to marry you?

Also, yes, I can top that, my husband is on the forum with me. )


----------



## Thundarr

that_girl said:


> Maybe people cheated in the past on people, learned from it and wouldn't dream of doing it again.


And that is the great equalizer in this discussion. 

People have time to prove they've changed but their partner may need to see if for a while to be secure that no patterns reemerge since some people to not change. 

Past actions do not disappear and should not be dismissed. They do diminish greatly over time when they are not repeated. They can even make us stronger than we would have been without them. But truly knowing someone only comes from knowing their past and also knowing how it affected them.

By all means we each need someone who accepts us for who we are and what we've done. I don't accept though that it's better to hide our past from the one person who's supposed to have our backs.


----------



## Thundarr

Caribbean Man said:


> Obviously you haven't read the entire thread.
> 
> Whenever you have the time and go through it .
> It was said on MANY occasions that women are supposed to hold men to the exact , same , high standards.


Yes I've said that four or five times. Usually no one notices and jumps on some other comment that suite the argument's purpose.


----------



## Caribbean Man

anony2 said:


> Does that mean that you will NEVER GET type 2 diabetes though?
> 
> Sorry, that study did not say anything about any changes, it just says that men are more apt to cheat than women and since you fall under 2 if not 3 of those categories, you are more apt to cheat than just a person that had prior sexual experience.
> 1. you are male
> 2. you had prior sexual experience
> 3. level of dysfunctional impulsivity
> 
> So does this mean that your wife had to lower her values in order to marry you?


Read Thundarr answer to that_girl's post.

Maybe then you'll understand


----------



## that_girl

Yea. Sounds good, Thundarr. But I don't agree.

If someone cheated 15 years ago in a dating relationship, and had some other relationships that were healthy, etc, I really don't care about the cheating 15 years ago.

It's not about hiding the past. Some things are just forgotten because they are no longer a part of the person's lives. I get that.

I didn't tell my husband anything he didn't ask. If he asked, I told him. If he didn't, I didn't share. what is the big deal? Some mystery is key  lol. He asked what was important to him, and I asked what was important to me. Sure, we could have lied, but we didn't.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> And that is the great equalizer in this discussion.
> 
> *People have time to prove they've changed but their partner may need to see if for a while to be secure that no patterns reemerge since some people to not change.
> 
> Past actions do not disappear and should not be dismissed. They do diminish greatly over time when they are not repeated. They can even make us stronger than we would have been without them. But truly knowing someone only comes from knowing their past and also knowing how it affected them.*
> 
> By all means we each need someone who accepts us for who we are and what we've done. I don't accept though that it's better to hide our past from the one person who's supposed to have our backs.


Well I couldn't put it better than that.
All I can add is ,
AND ITS NOT GENDER SPECIFIC.


----------



## anony2

Thundarr said:


> Yes I've said that four or five times. Usually no one notices and jumps on some other comment that suite the argument's purpose.


Then you should be able to see what we are saying. If CM's theory or ideology that he holds is viable, then his own wife should not have married him because he is liable to cheat on her since he has had multiple sexual partners.


----------



## anonim

Caribbean Man said:


> Well I couldn't put it better than that.
> All I can add is ,
> AND ITS NOT GENDER SPECIFIC.


Then stop specifying genders.


----------



## anony2

Caribbean Man said:


> Read Thundarr answer to that_girl's post.
> 
> Maybe then you'll understand


So basically, your wife did have to lower her standards in order to marry you. Why not just come out and say it?


----------



## Thundarr

Caribbean Man said:


> Obviously you haven't read the entire thread.
> 
> Whenever you have the time and go through it .
> It was said on MANY occasions that women are supposed to hold men to the exact , same , high standards.
> 
> 
> 
> anony2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then let's apply this ideology...
> going by what you say, your own wife should have had higher standards and not married you, since you had prior sexual experiences. Does this mean that she has low standards and has self esteem problems because you were promiscuous and she married you anyways?
Click to expand...

My guess is CB feels blessed that she gave him time to prove himself. In other comments though he admitted that it bothered her at first.

It's not much different from me not liking my wife's past but over time she proved her self.

Therefore I see no conflict in ideology. I only see the conflict your trying to start.


----------



## that_girl

It's like my job resume. I don't even put my jobs before teaching anymore. I have been a teacher for 12 years...who cares that I once cut pizza? I dont' even think I remember how to bake the pizza...or clean the frozen yogurt machine...or make a cappuccino :rofl: No one cares about my jobs before teaching. I've proven myself. I guess I proved myself in life when I didn't go screwing people over even though I had sex with different people. My husband knew I was no virgin. He knew I was a healthy 31 year old with sexual needs. What more did he need to know? 

I have been a teacher. Before that, I had some jobs. Some I quit, some I was fired from. Who cares!? lol So when I was dating H, we would have some talks on the past, but nothing too crazy...i simply didn't care. We talked about our childhood, some fundamental relationship things we cared about, if we were free from STDs and that is about it. 

And like resumes, people can lie ALL THE TIME about who they are.


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> Yea. Sounds good, Thundarr. But I don't agree.
> 
> If someone cheated 15 years ago in a dating relationship, and had some other relationships that were healthy, etc, I really don't care about the cheating 15 years ago.
> 
> It's not about hiding the past. Some things are just forgotten because they are no longer a part of the person's lives. I get that.
> 
> *I didn't tell my husband anything he didn't ask. If he asked, I told him. If he didn't, I didn't share. what is the big deal? Some mystery is key  lol. He asked what was important to him, and I asked what was important to me. Sure, we could have lied, but we didn't.*


:iagree:

And that's the point.
You guys were truthful , open and honest with each other. 
And yes you did change,just like you stopped partying when that pregnancy test came back positive.
You changed because you saw the possibility of a better way.
To each him own.


----------



## Thundarr

anonim said:


> I honestly don't think I can respectfully debate with someone who holds other people to standards they themselves do not maintain and then denigrates them for not meeting those standards.
> 
> Hypocrisy is not endearing, its demeaning.


You guys are STILL not seeing that men hold women accountable as partners and women hold men accountable but there is differing criteria. 

There are plenty of women who hold potential partners to standards they themselves to not meet. It's not always a problem.


----------



## anony2

Thundarr said:


> My guess is CB feels blessed that she gave him time to prove himself. In other comments though he admitted that it bothered her at first.
> 
> It's not much different from me not liking my wife's past but over time she proved her self.
> 
> Therefore I see no conflict in ideology. I only see the conflict your trying to start.


Then you need to open your eyes wider, because so far, you are the *ONLY ONE* who has mentioned time to prove themselves...

And again, going by CM's OWN STANDARDS, his wife shouldn't have married him because of his apt to cheat on her.


----------



## that_girl

If my husband had told me about cheating from 10 years ago, i would have wondered why he still cares. 

It would make me think he's covering for something he's done recently LOL!


----------



## anony2

Thundarr said:


> You guys are STILL not seeing that men hold women accountable as partners and women hold men accountable but there is differing criteria.
> 
> There are plenty of women who hold potential partners to standards they themselves to not meet. It's not always a problem.


And you are STILL not seeing that if you paint a picture with a wide brush, then you might just include yourself in that painting like CM did. And since he included himself in that painting, then he falls under the same standards that he is applying to others aka he is more apt to cheat on his wife because he had multiple sex partners.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Look,
If you guys will please excuse me,I have been on all day. I am logging off now. 

Its 5 PM down here and I have to prepare for tonight,
I have something special planned for my wife , tonight.
Yup,
I TREAT HER SPACIAL.

Analyze that!


----------



## lovelygirl

I said it in another thread that CM is the exception to the general rule and the perfect example that people change when they find the right person and do anything to commit to them.
Knowing his past history, I am amazed how committed he is to his wife but at the same time I'm not that surprised because he proved he could be the man his wife wanted.

That's what all matters in the end.


----------



## that_girl

Spacial?

lol Surely you meant special.


----------



## anonim

Thundarr said:


> You guys are STILL not seeing that men hold women accountable as partners and women hold men accountable but there is differing criteria.
> 
> There are plenty of women who hold potential partners to standards they themselves to not meet. It's not always a problem.


there are differing criteria for different *people* not different genders.

and when i see someone else holding other groups of people to standards that they dont even meet, i'll call them on it too.


----------



## anony2

that_girl said:


> Spacial?
> 
> lol Surely you meant special.


I think he called that a freudian slip earlier in this thread.


----------



## Thundarr

that_girl said:


> Yea. Sounds good, Thundarr. But I don't agree.
> 
> If someone cheated 15 years ago in a dating relationship, and had some other relationships that were healthy, etc, I really don't care about the cheating 15 years ago.
> 
> It's not about hiding the past. Some things are just forgotten because they are no longer a part of the person's lives. I get that.
> 
> I didn't tell my husband anything he didn't ask. If he asked, I told him. If he didn't, I didn't share. what is the big deal? Some mystery is key  lol. He asked what was important to him, and I asked what was important to me. Sure, we could have lied, but we didn't.


I would not think infidelity fifteen years prior is anything either. In my view what you mean by forgotten is that you are at peace with it and it's something that does not apply to who you are. I think it helped shape who you are.

In regards to telling everything about your past. If he didn't want to know then it's really not a big deal. Some people eventually wanted to know. I suspect she would not have told me anything that I did not ask. I did ask though and she was truthful. I could be wrong but I suspect if you hubby asked that you may feel compelled to tell him.

I love my wife more than I know how to explain and she had a past. In the same scenario I think some of the girls here would not have given me enough credit to know the past and love them anyway.

I'm feel like I'm a moderate in this debate. Not hard core left or right.


----------



## that_girl

Yea, for me, being with one person for 5 years, it's not a big deal.

However, if I was dating someone with all these questions about my past and then "acting weird" about my answers, then I'd just dump him. lol.

No one's past is crystal clean. I care more about felonies and evictions than sexual partners.


----------



## Thundarr

that_girl said:


> It's like my job resume. I don't even put my jobs before teaching anymore. I have been a teacher for 12 years...who cares that I once cut pizza? I dont' even think I remember how to bake the pizza...or clean the frozen yogurt machine...or make a cappuccino :rofl: No one cares about my jobs before teaching. I've proven myself. I guess I proved myself in life when I didn't go screwing people over even though I had sex with different people. My husband knew I was no virgin. He knew I was a healthy 31 year old with sexual needs. What more did he need to know?
> 
> I have been a teacher. Before that, I had some jobs. Some I quit, some I was fired from. Who cares!? lol So when I was dating H, we would have some talks on the past, but nothing too crazy...i simply didn't care. We talked about our childhood, some fundamental relationship things we cared about, if we were free from STDs and that is about it.
> 
> And like resumes, people can lie ALL THE TIME about who they are.


Well they did look at your resume and being fired was noticed. It probably meant little to nothing though if it was many years before.

I've not been stuck on the numbers thing this whole thread (I don't think). I've been more on using history in general to evaluate compatibility and character traits.


----------



## that_girl

Yea, I don't even put those jobs on my resume, was my point. Same as I don't talk about my dating past from 10 years ago (or more).

I stole candy when I was 5. It wasn't something I told people when I was 15.

When I got my new teaching job, the school wanted to know about my teaching  Not about getting fired from a pizza place because I went to the bathroom too much! :rofl: Yea, that's what I was told. Oh well. I was 17. Doesn't matter.


----------



## larry.gray

that_girl said:


> When I took vows, I meant every word. I wouldn't have said them had I not meant them. I read them every morning because I've painted them on our wall over our wedding pic across from our bed. Who reads them daily? People should.


That's freaking awesome!!!!

I love that!


----------



## Thundarr

anony2 said:


> Then you need to open your eyes wider, because so far, you are the *ONLY ONE* who has mentioned time to prove themselves...
> 
> And again, going by CM's OWN STANDARDS, his wife shouldn't have married him because of his apt to cheat on her.


Quite possibly I do. We all project. 

And your correct that CM would have had problem if his past were hers. However CM was evaluated based on his wife's criteria. And she made him prove he was not playing her. She could ONLY know to do this if you she knew he was a player which means she used her knowledge of his past to protect herself.

His independence and drive were likely more important to her. There's the double standard but I'm fine with it because both genders participate. The thing is the men on this thread are not complaining about what women find important in us. We accept it.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Caribbean Man said:


> Obviously you haven't read the entire thread.
> 
> Whenever you have the time and go through it .
> It was said on MANY occasions that women are supposed to hold men to the exact , same , high standards.


I believe I stand alone in choosing a man who had the same values as myself ....the reality is.....women do not see men like mine as the Big catches in the sea, they go for the Bad Boys, the high Testosterone males who oooze confidence, who have other women falling at their feet...this IS overwhelmingly what they are attracted too...and never forget social status. They don't care how many women he has laid, if they do care, they get over it real quick. 

Even LovelyGirl doesn't want an inexperienced man-- and she IS a virgin! 

Women themselves are not holding men to the same standards, so how can we blame the men....I say we can't !!! By our actions in still wanting them....we are giving them a ticket to have as many partners as they wish......especially when we are openly downing the less experienced male left & right. Hell, Men are just doing what reigns in the chicks --so they have even more pickings ! 

Wouldn't you ??

Again I don't raise my sons like this, but I know the risk they are taking by playing by the rules of No double standard...They have a few things going for them... They are good looking boys ~ honest & kind.....but yet let them turn PlayBoy, Flirting up the girls skirts, leave women dangling with their alpha charm... jump on a motorcycle, push women around a little bit -just enough to say "you don't own me, I am my own man"....and the chicks would suddenly Quadruple. 


When the Good Guys start finishing 1st, the Bad Boys might take notice and decide they need to change their ways. Until then, nothing will change, including this Double standard.


----------



## Thundarr

that_girl said:


> If my husband had told me about cheating from 10 years ago, i would have wondered why he still cares.
> 
> It would make me think he's covering for something he's done recently LOL!


Yep. Once you've made the commitment and married then there's not reason to have that conversation.... Well maybe to feel close? Might be weird after already married though.


----------



## Thundarr

anony2 said:


> And you are STILL not seeing that if you paint a picture with a wide brush, then you might just include yourself in that painting like CM did. And since he included himself in that painting, then he falls under the same standards that he is applying to others aka he is more apt to cheat on his wife because he had multiple sex partners.


anony2 I do hold myself to the wide brush as well and I completely see you point about CM. I like was LG said which I think applies to both genders.



lovelygirl said:


> I said it in another thread that CM is the exception to the general rule and the perfect example that people change when they find the right person and do anything to commit to them.
> Knowing his past history, I am amazed how committed he is to his wife but at the same time I'm not that surprised because he proved he could be the man his wife wanted.
> 
> That's what all matters in the end.


I believe CM does fit within some of the statistics he's talking about but I still agree with his view on the subject. I haven't confused the message with the messenger. I also try not to latch onto tangent arguments just to tear down credibility of other arguments.

There are exceptions to the statistics. I'm sure there are good husbands and wives out there with outrageous pasts.


----------



## Thundarr

anonim said:


> there are differing criteria for different *people* not different genders.
> 
> and when i see someone else holding other groups of people to standards that they dont even meet, i'll call them on it too.


Both actually. In general though it's easy to see trends of what women find more important in a man and conversely in what men find important in women. 

No wide brush here. There are exceptions.


----------



## FalconKing

I love it how we are supposed to have found common ground but nobody really did. Just faked it til the cops left. No matter how many times I explain why I feel someone's history matters people read it as something else. But if a woman says it matters people are less hostile. They are less hostile because they are reading it as "Yeah! Men screw up too!" Because me being a man saying this automatically means I'm putting down women. Because I (a man) said something negative a bout a woman. That's all some people see. When others who agreed with me spoke up then it just fed people's mind set that we were attacking women. I am a heterosexual male so naturally my story would be base off an experience with a woman. A person sexual history matters whether someone is a porn star or a virgin. It matters no matter what you have done IMO. Some people have mastered a way debating that keeps the fight up. Basically some one says something and the recipient of that communication doesn't acknowledge the point that person is trying to make. Instead they look for words and terms in the communicators message and to say that certain words offend them. Then they try to get that person to prove to them that what they were saying is not offensive. If the person refuses to ignore that challenge it just feeds them into believing they were right. If the person does not ignore then the subject matter shifts as things are picked apart and the original intent is thrown into the abyss. In order to avoid this you basically have to say your stance is wrong. That's what some people want you to say. But that's just a matter of opinion. And no one who believes strongly in what they say is going to do that. So it keeps the conflict(is not a debate because a lot of people are refusing to stay on topic) going. Some people here are only interested in fighting. This is a board about marriage. Is this really how some of you people communicate with your spouse when they say things you don't want to talk about. Pretending to be rational but looking for the first chance you can to derail or claiming to be offended so that your spouse backs off?? Whew...I typed all that on a phone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anony2

SimplyAmorous said:


> I believe I stand alone in choosing a man who had the same values as myself ....the reality is.....women do not see men like mine as the Big catches in the sea, they go for the Bad Boys, the high Testosterone males who oooze confidence, who have other women falling at their feet...this IS overwhelmingly what they are attracted too...and never forget social status. They don't care how many women he has laid, if they do care, they get over it real quick.
> 
> Even LovelyGirl doesn't want an inexperienced man-- and she IS a virgin!
> 
> Women themselves are not holding men to the same standards, so how can we blame the men....I say we can't !!! By our actions in still wanting them....we are giving them a ticket to have as many partners as they wish......especially when we are openly downing the less experienced male left & right. Hell, Men are just doing what reigns in the chicks --so they have even more pickings !
> 
> Wouldn't you ??
> 
> Again I don't raise my sons like this, but I know the risk they are taking by playing by the rules of No double standard...They have a few things going for them... They are good looking boys ~ honest & kind.....but yet let them turn PlayBoy, Flirting up the girls skirts, leave women dangling with their alpha charm... jump on a motorcycle, push women around a little bit -just enough to say "you don't own me, I am my own man"....and the chicks would suddenly Quadruple.
> 
> 
> When the Good Guys start finishing 1st, the Bad Boys might take notice and decide they need to change their ways. Until then, nothing will change, including this Double standard.


The problem isn't that the guys with high testosterone get the women, the double standard is that women's sexuality has been controlled by religions whereas men's has not, which was accomplished by the ILLUSION that women are less valuable if they have sexual experience before they get married where as men could do what ever they wanted sexually. Who is to blame for this religious beliefs considering it was MEN who wrote these books? 

This becomes blatantly obvious when you read how many times the word virgin is used in the bible and it is only speaking of women. 

I feel that this is why some men get so upset about the feminist movement; women are now free to have as many sexual partners as she pleases and only insecure men have a problem with that. 

I hope all of my 4 children have some sexual experience before they get married because I think that sexual compatibility is important. I do not think in the least bit that this makes them immoral or more apt to cheat on their partners. 

It is not safe to assume that only alpha's have sex before marriage, nor is it wise. Also from the definition of an alpha, they are not bad boys either, so I do not know where you are getting your information from about alpha's.


----------



## anony2

Thundarr said:


> anony2 I do hold myself to the wide brush as well and I completely see you point about CM. I like was LG said which I think applies to both genders.


Well, I am glad that you hold him to such a high regard, I on the other hand, do not know CM personally, I am going by his words on a forum. 




Thundarr said:


> I believe CM does fit within some of the statistics he's talking about but I still agree with his view on the subject. I haven't confused the message with the messenger. I also try not to latch onto tangent arguments just to tear down credibility of other arguments.
> 
> There are exceptions to the statistics. I'm sure there are good husbands and wives out there with outrageous pasts.



There are no statistics on this, these standards are based on OPINIONS. Some of these opinions are based on religious beliefs, but not all of us hold those religious beliefs. 

I personally do not hold virginity as some type of purity because that is insinuating that if you have sex (whether consensual or not), then you are now UNPURE. 

Well, what about if the woman is raped? Is she UNPURE because she had sex before she was married?

What if the woman was molested when she was a child? Does this mean that she is UNPURE?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Thundarr said:


> I believe CM does fit within some of the statistics he's talking about but I still agree with his view on the subject. I haven't confused the message with the messenger. I also try not to latch onto tangent arguments just to tear down credibility of other arguments.
> 
> There are exceptions to the statistics. I'm sure there are good husbands and wives out there with outrageous pasts.


Personally I feel CM would make a fine mentor for young people today....precisely due to his past and where he has come ....experiencing both sides of this , a taste of it all -bearing the fruits of what he has learned & how high he regards it in his heart.....his words here speaks volumes (at least to me)....

(page 24 of this thread)....



> *Caribbean said*: I've always heard that in life,its the little things in life that counts.
> 
> Before courting my wife,I placed very * little* value emotional connection and sex. I viewed sex as just that,sex.
> I had quite a few partners, even a threesome.
> Got together with my wife and she placed very high value on emotional connection and sex. She was a virgin by CHOICE.
> And she is older than me.
> Then I made a * little * adjustment to my thinking,and a huge adjustment to my value system.
> Seventeen years later ,I can look back and say if I hadn't made that
> * little * adjustment , I would have been where the rest of my friends back then who shared my old values, are today.
> 
> Everyone of them are either divorced, or living in a broken marriage.
> Yup,
> Its the * little * things in life that counts.
> But that's just my opinion,
> Hey,
> Whatever *works * for you, then by all means.........
> 
> ETA.
> I have also learned that I should be very wary of people who advocate something they have never tried.
> Experience , not theory ,is the best teacher.


----------



## anonim

anony2 said:


> Well, I am glad that you hold him to such a high regard, I on the other hand, do not know CM personally, I am going by his words on a forum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are no statistics on this, these standards are based on OPINIONS. Some of these opinions are based on religious beliefs, but not all of us hold those religious beliefs.
> 
> I personally do not hold virginity as some type of purity because that is insinuating that if you have sex (whether consensual or not), then you are now UNPURE.
> 
> Well, what about if the woman is raped? Is she UNPURE because she had sex before she was married?
> 
> What if the woman was molested when she was a child? Does this mean that she is UNPURE?


this is a very good point, as some societies, western and otherwise, do treat molestation/rape victims as damaged good to some degree or another.


----------



## that_girl

My 2nd lover (baby daddy) was a HORRIBLE lover...and he was a 'ladies' man'. :rofl: Right.

Just find someone who you think is awesome.


----------



## Thundarr

anony2 said:


> Well, I am glad that you hold him to such a high regard, I on the other hand, do not know CM personally, I am going by his words on a forum.
> 
> I don't know him any more than I know you. I'm merely defending some of the things he's articulated. Is that confusing?
> 
> There are no statistics on this, these standards are based on OPINIONS. Some of these opinions are based on religious beliefs, but not all of us hold those religious beliefs.
> 
> Define "this" in your statement. I doubt I'd be answering what your actually referring to otherwise since we are in the spin zone.
> 
> I personally do not hold virginity as some type of purity because that is insinuating that if you have sex (whether consensual or not), then you are now UNPURE.
> 
> No need to tell me that like I think anything otherwise. Are you trying to make anyone think I said such? That's deceitful.
> 
> 
> Well, what about if the woman is raped? Is she UNPURE because she had sex before she was married?
> 
> What if the woman was molested when she was a child? Does this mean that she is UNPURE?
> 
> Neither are. Where are you trying to take this? Sorry I'm not following you to tangent land.


These types of post are why we don't discuss the issues.


----------



## Maricha75

that_girl said:


> My 2nd lover (baby daddy) was a HORRIBLE lover...and he was a 'ladies' man'. :rofl: Right.
> 
> Just find someone who you think is awesome.


Yea... my first was a virgin... I guess the fact that he was 14 (I was 15) could have something to do with that. My second was not good either. He claimed to have been with a lot of women (at age 18).... and yet, not so good at getting me aroused. However, I learned about a year after we broke up that he preferred men anyway.

My third lover is my husband. By the way this thread has gone, one would think he would have been horrible. Exactly the opposite actually. And he was a virgin. He has never gotten oral, given oral, had vaginal sex...and not anal either. Granted, I had only had sex twice before him, but still, a virgin knew what he was doing better than a man who claimed to have lots of experience.

My husband is the perfect match for me. That's really all that matters.


----------



## anony2

Thundarr said:


> These types of post are why we don't discuss the issues.
> 
> 
> I don't know him any more than I know you. I'm merely defending some of the things he's articulated. Is that confusing?


If you do not know him, then why are you attempting to vouch for him? Your condescending attitude only reflects on you. 






Thundarr said:


> Define "this" in your statement. I doubt I'd be answering what your actually referring to otherwise since we are in the spin zone.


THIS being the topic of this thread about sexual history and whether it matters or not. 






Thundarr said:


> No need to tell me that like I think anything otherwise. Are you trying to make anyone think I said such? That's deceitful.
> 
> 
> Neither are. Where are you trying to take this? Sorry I'm not following you to tangent land.


Did I say that YOU did or did I say that I DID NOT? Why are you making MY post about YOU???? 

I just responded to your questions and then explained why "I" do not consider not having sex before marriage as 'being pure'. 

BOTH of those ideologies is what I experienced from MY religious upbringing. 


I do not understand why you find the need to be rude considering we have been discussing the issues all along for many pages now...???


----------



## SimplyAmorous

anony2 said:


> Well, what about if the woman is raped? Is she UNPURE because she had sex before she was married?
> 
> What if the woman was molested when she was a child? Does this mean that she is UNPURE?


I looked up some answers to this question on google....

** Physically, no. But emotionally, mentally, even spiritually, I believe she would have every right to still consider herself one. 

** A person who does not consent to sexual intercourse would be considered, spiritually pure. In rape her virginity was stolen from her, it was not consensual . 

** Rape is an act of violence .
Such a woman is a survivor of violence and a Virgin to MAKING LOVE. 

** Despite the horror they went through, scientifically they have lost their virginity. Though, since sex is a consensual thing, they may mentally consider themselves a virgin.

One rape victim spoke about it like this >>>>


> Personally, this bothers me because of my first sexual experience was rape. I did not feel like I lost my virginity though. I never count it as a sexual encounter..I feel as if it was more of a physical thing. Emotionally, he did not take it from me, it wasn’t his to take.


----------



## anony2

SimplyAmorous said:


> I looked up some answers to this question on google....
> 
> ** Physically, no. But emotionally, mentally, even spiritually, I believe she would have every right to still consider herself one.
> 
> ** A person who does not consent to sexual intercourse would be considered, spiritually pure. In rape her virginity was stolen from her, it was not consensual .
> 
> ** Rape is an act of violence .
> Such a woman is a survivor of violence and a Virgin to MAKING LOVE.
> 
> ** Despite the horror they went through, scientifically they have lost their virginity. Though, since sex is a consensual thing, they may mentally consider themselves a virgin.
> 
> One rape victim spoke about it like this >>>>


I was 11 when I was raped, I was molested before that, neither of which I could tell my parents about because of my religious upbringing. My virginity was stolen from me before I was able to know what virginity was. Since my hymen was not intact, I would not have been considered a virgin, therefore instantly I am "less valuable" than a woman that had her hymen intact?

Now, because of these things, I acted out when I got into my teens and even into my adulthood. Does this make me less of a person? Does this make me less valuable?

It doesn't to my husband and THAT is the only person that I am concerned about. 


ETA:

If virginity mattered so much to yours or anyone elses god, then he/she/it, would make sure that these things didn't happen because for every one of the women that got through their childhood without being raped or molested, there is one of us who didn't.


----------



## Maricha75

anony2 said:


> I was 11 when I was raped, I was molested before that, neither of which I could tell my parents about because of my religious upbringing. My virginity was stolen from me before I was able to know what virginity was. Since my hymen was not intact, I would not have been considered a virgin, therefore instantly I am "less valuable" than a woman that had her hymen intact?
> 
> Now, because of these things, I acted out when I got into my teens and even into my adulthood. Does this make me less of a person? Does this make me less valuable?
> 
> It doesn't to my husband and THAT is the only person that I am concerned about.


First, it's horrible that this happened to you! I can't even imagine going through something like that.

Second, I am guessing that your parents are/were Christians? Or professed to be Christians? Well, I can honestly say that as a Christian, I would do bodily harm to ANYONE who violated my child...whether my sons or my daughter. It would take an act of GOD to keep me from trying to kill them. It's not right for parents to look down on their children...really it's not right for ANYONE to look down on anyone else.... anyway, if a parent looks poorly on a child because of something they have no control over... UGH! It pisses me off reading things like that!

But, I agree with you...what matters is what your husband thinks. Really, he's the only one who matters.


----------



## Thundarr

Okay then.



anony2 said:


> If you do not know him, then why are you attempting to vouch for him? Your condescending attitude only reflects on you.
> 
> Again, I am merely defending points he has articulated. Your mad that I seem condescending but then you ask the same question again which I've already answered. I'll add to my previous response that he's made many points even on other threads that make a lot of sense to me so I have a picture of what he means on some statements. Maybe those are not always accurate.
> 
> 
> THIS being the topic of this thread about sexual history and whether it matters or not.
> 
> Then I'm glad I did not answer because I did not know if you were talking about some cited stat. Do I think someone with a history of cheating is more likely to cheat? Statistically speaking probably. Do I think someone with many partners is more like to divorce? Statistically speaking probably. Do I think legit studies would suggest this? Yes I do. That again is not talking about any single person. Each individual can make their own choices regardless past. Jut so happens that past shows their previous decisions.
> 
> Did I say that YOU did or did I say that I DID NOT? Why are you making MY post about YOU????
> 
> I just responded to your questions and then explained why "I" do not consider not having sex before marriage as 'being pure'.
> 
> BOTH of those ideologies is what I experienced from MY religious upbringing.
> 
> You quoted me and then made statements that did not apply to the quote? So I asked why and I suspected diversion tactics as if my quote somehow was not correct because you stated something unrelated. I see this tactic on here a lot so I called you on it.
> 
> I do not understand why you find the need to be rude considering we have been discussing the issues all along for many pages now...???
> 
> 
> I'll appear rude if I think someone is twisting my words into something obviously not intended. Someone may believe you so yea, I don't like it.


----------



## anonim

SimplyAmorous said:


> I looked up some answers to this question on google....
> 
> ** *Physically, no*. But emotionally, mentally, even spiritually, I believe she would have every right to still consider herself one.
> 
> ** A person who does not consent to sexual intercourse would be considered, spiritually pure. In rape her virginity was stolen from her, it was not consensual .
> 
> ** Rape is an act of violence .
> Such a woman is a survivor of violence and a Virgin to MAKING LOVE.
> 
> ** Despite the horror they went through, scientifically they have lost their virginity. Though, since sex is a consensual thing, they may mentally consider themselves a virgin.
> 
> One rape victim spoke about it like this >>>>


I find this thought disturbing. To say that because someone is raped that they are unpure, whether physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually or otherwise is truly sickening and malicious.
So in addition to all the other trauma of rape, a raped person now has to have the socially constructed stigma of being judged as 'unpure.'

Because someone decided to rape them.

But its 'pure' if you masturbate at 7 y/o?


----------



## Thundarr

anony2 said:


> I was 11 when I was raped, I was molested before that, neither of which I could tell my parents about because of my religious upbringing. My virginity was stolen from me before I was able to know what virginity was. Since my hymen was not intact, I would not have been considered a virgin, therefore instantly I am "less valuable" than a woman that had her hymen intact?
> 
> Now, because of these things, I acted out when I got into my teens and even into my adulthood. Does this make me less of a person? Does this make me less valuable?
> 
> It doesn't to my husband and THAT is the only person that I am concerned about.
> 
> 
> ETA:
> 
> If virginity mattered so much to yours or anyone elses god, then he/she/it, would make sure that these things didn't happen because for every one of the women that got through their childhood without being raped or molested, there is one of us who didn't.


I am so so sorry for that anony2. No one deserves that. I no way in my world could you be less a person for acting out after that happened. Many who are raped or abused diminish the act of sex in order to diminish what happened. 

I won't pretend to understand what you've been through. But I want you to know that I understand your strong emotions on this subject.


----------



## anony2

Maricha75 said:


> First, it's horrible that this happened to you! I can't even imagine going through something like that.
> 
> Second, I am guessing that your parents are/were Christians? Or professed to be Christians? Well, I can honestly say that as a Christian, I would do bodily harm to ANYONE who violated my child...whether my sons or my daughter. It would take an act of GOD to keep me from trying to kill them. It's not right for parents to look down on their children...really it's not right for ANYONE to look down on anyone else.... anyway, if a parent looks poorly on a child because of something they have no control over... UGH! It pisses me off reading things like that!
> 
> But, I agree with you...what matters is what your husband thinks. Really, he's the only one who matters.


Yes, they are Christians, it wasn't so much as them looking down on me purposefully, but what they taught me, not understanding that "little ears" can hear. 

For instance: I was taught sex before marriage was a sin. They never ever said to me that rape or molestation was excluded. So when I got raped at 11, how was I going to tell my parents that, when I wasn't even old enough to understand? I blamed myself, just like most rape victims do. I told my older cousin about it and she told me not to tell my mom because she would get mad. She thought the same thing as I did. 

When I was younger, my little cousin was molested at age 5 and my parents said it was because SHE was dressing inappropriately. So inadvertently, they blamed HER for being molested. In my mind, it played out like this: if SHE was to blame for being molested, then I was to blame for me being molested... this was something that played in my mind over and over and over until I got individual counseling and worked through this.


----------



## Maricha75

anonim said:


> I find this thought disturbing. To say that because someone is raped that they are unpure, whether physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually or otherwise is truly sickening and malicious.
> So in addition to all the other trauma of rape, a raped person now has to have the socially constructed stigma of being judged as 'unpure.'
> 
> Because someone decided to rape them.
> 
> But its 'pure' if you masturbate at 7 y/o?


OMG! Seriously? Did it ever occur to you that MAYBE SA's words about mental and emotional purity meant that the VICTIM felt that way? I have heard from a few rape victims that they THEMSELVES felt unpure...and these were atheist and pagan women. THEY felt that way. Their friends and family didn't! And, when I read SA's words, THAT is how I understood it. Not that SHE was saying they were unpure, but that THEY, THEMSELVES, felt that way.


----------



## Thundarr

anonim said:


> I find this thought disturbing. To say that because someone is raped that they are unpure, whether physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually or otherwise is truly sickening and malicious.
> So in addition to all the other trauma of rape, a raped person now has to have the socially constructed stigma of being judged as 'unpure.'
> 
> Because someone decided to rape them.
> 
> But its 'pure' if you masturbate at 7 y/o?


I don't see how you came to that conclusion. Simply was giving the definition and not an opinion.

I hope we all know that a rape victim is a victim. They are not responsible for the terrible thing that happened to them. I'd be shocked if anyone here thinks otherwise.


----------



## Maricha75

anony2 said:


> Yes, they are Christians, it wasn't so much as them looking down on me purposefully, but what they taught me, not understanding that "little ears" can hear.
> 
> For instance: I was taught sex before marriage was a sin. They never ever said to me that rape or molestation was excluded. So when I got raped at 11, how was I going to tell my parents that, when I wasn't even old enough to understand? I blamed myself, just like most rape victims do. I told my older cousin about it and she told me not to tell my mom because she would get mad. She thought the same thing as I did.
> 
> When I was younger, my little cousin was molested at age 5 and my parents said it was because SHE was dressing inappropriately. So inadvertently, they blamed HER for being molested. In my mind, it played out like this: if SHE was to blame for being molested, then I was to blame for me being molested... this was something that played in my mind over and over and over until I got individual counseling and worked through this.


I'm glad you were able to work through it with counseling. And, I stand by my previous statement... your parents are wrong...VERY wrong. A 5 year old is not asking to be molested. A 5 year old doesn't understand! Same with an 11 year old...etc. NO ONE asks for rape. It doesn't matter how she is dressed. Damn..now I'm angry for you AND your cousin... I know you worked through it, but looking at my 5 year old daughter, and my 11 year old niece... I'd kill.


----------



## that_girl

People who are raped are not victims. We are survivors.

There is a difference. Just to be clear.


----------



## anony2

Maricha75 said:


> OMG! Seriously? Did it ever occur to you that MAYBE SA's words about mental and emotional purity meant that the VICTIM felt that way? I have heard from a few rape victims that they THEMSELVES felt unpure...and these were atheist and pagan women. THEY felt that way. Their friends and family didn't! And, when I read SA's words, THAT is how I understood it. Not that SHE was saying they were unpure, but that THEY, THEMSELVES, felt that way.





Thundarr said:


> I don't see how you came to that conclusion. Simply was giving the definition and not an opinion.
> 
> I hope we all know that a rape victim is a victim. They are not responsible for the terrible thing that happened to them. I'd be shocked if anyone here thinks otherwise.


Anonim is right though, that is the sad part, I have experienced that with a few men. I was "damaged" goods because I wasn't a virgin, they didn't care how or why.


----------



## Maricha75

that_girl said:


> People who are raped are not victims. We are survivors.
> 
> There is a difference. Just to be clear.


Noted. My point is that, at least the ones I have spoken with, SOME view themselves as victims...at least in the beginning anyway.


----------



## Maricha75

anony2 said:


> Anonim is right though, that is the sad part, I have experienced that with a few men. I was "damaged" goods because I wasn't a virgin, they didn't care how or why.


Their loss. But, as you stated... you found the perfect man for you. Had they responded differently, you might not have met and married your husband.


----------



## TiggyBlue

anony2 said:


> Anonim is right though, that is the sad part, I have experienced that with a few men. I was "damaged" goods because I wasn't a virgin, they didn't care how or why.


"damage goods" are something you take back to the store, it never ceases to amaze me how some people seem to see people as objects that can be "damaged".


----------



## anony2

Maricha75 said:


> Their loss. But, as you stated... you found the perfect man for you. Had they responded differently, you might not have met and married your husband.


Anonim is my husband, so he understands what I have been through. I feel that he is the FIRST man that has accepted me for who I am, what I have been through and actually allowed me to get the healing that I needed. He has stood by me through thick and thin and there has been a lot of each. lol


----------



## anonim

Maricha75 said:


> OMG! Seriously? Did it ever occur to you that MAYBE SA's words about mental and emotional purity meant that the VICTIM felt that way? I have heard from a few rape victims that they THEMSELVES felt unpure...and these were atheist and pagan women. THEY felt that way. Their friends and family didn't! And, when I read SA's words, THAT is how I understood it. Not that SHE was saying they were unpure, but that THEY, THEMSELVES, felt that way.


Yes. Seriously. And no it doesn't occur to me that SA's words about mental and emotional purity meant that the VICTIM felt that way, because I presume she speaks of either her own experience or of what she knows.
Standards of 'purity' and lack thereof are judgments, of oneself and of others,despite even when you don't know you are judging others. 




Thundarr said:


> I don't see how you came to that conclusion. Simply was giving the definition and not an opinion.
> 
> I hope we all know that a rape victim is a victim. They are not responsible for the terrible thing that happened to them. I'd be shocked if anyone here thinks otherwise.


I dont see how you came to the conclusion that that definition was not an opinion. And although people that have been raped are not responsible for having been raped, you would be amazed at how many people treat them as though they are.


----------



## anony2

abitlost said:


> "damage goods" are something you take back to the store, it never ceases to amaze me how some people seem to see people as objects that can be "damaged".


Oh I know. My mom actually called me up and told me that my niece RUINED her life...I asked my mom how and she said that it was because she was pregnant and not married. 

They said the same thing to me when I got pregnant when I was 17. Funny enough, my mom had her first child when she was 17, but since she was married, her life wasn't ruined.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

anony2 said:


> The problem isn't that the guys with high testosterone get the women, the double standard is that women's sexuality has been controlled by religions whereas men's has not, which was accomplished by the ILLUSION that women are less valuable if they have sexual experience before they get married where as men could do what ever they wanted sexually. Who is to blame for this religious beliefs considering it was MEN who wrote these books?


 I don't agree with the books, I do not take the Bible literally at all, I also feel MAN wrote the book -in many ways, for his own gain. Though I still find wisdom in some of it...I use Reason, not religion. 

Most people today bash religion anyway, you have much company. 



> This becomes blatantly obvious when you read how many times the word virgin is used in the bible and it is only speaking of women.


 I can see why it was a big deal back then -so men would know who fathered their children, think if you were the men of that time, please try to put yourself in their shoes. Seriously it makes sense. Today we have paternity tests, back then, it was all trust. Virginity held more value. 

Today every man has a right to get a Paternity Test if he questions if he is the father..... but I feel we are behind the times if -beyond so many months, regardless of results, he is deemed financially responsible if indeed he finds out the child was NOT his.....This is criminal.....Some things have not caught up with our times -with the liberation of sex in the modern world. Just my opinions. I feel they are fair. 



> I feel that this is why some men get so upset about the feminist movement; women are now free to have as many sexual partners as she pleases and only insecure men have a problem with that.


 although some people ARE insecure about a sexual past, this is NOT the underlying issue with everyone -as I have tried so damn dilentgently here to express, it is the value placed ON THE ACT OF SEX... I am not insecure, but I still want a partner who views and upholds the act as I. 

Please try to not paint everyone who feels as I -as insecure. 



> I hope all of my 4 children have some sexual experience before they get married because I think that sexual compatibility is important. I do not think in the least bit that this makes them immoral or more apt to cheat on their partners.


 I enjoy porn so neither do I. You are confusing ME with the Bible, I never said it was immoral, But I do feel everyone who uses it should be responsible and NO, I don't see alot of that in this world today with children being born to countless men who take off, Grandparents raising them... who is teaching these children about sex, it's value. If I accually viewed it like everyone here thinks I do, then I would be on some crusade to shame everyone who uses sex responsibly-outside of marraige.... I am not. 

You as a parent has the right to teach your kids any way you choose, your way is THE norm of today...even what they teach in the schools, with the happy passing out of condoms. I am in the minority here. I would like to see a world where those like myself will still survive in this modern world without being made to feel we are behind the times, get with the program, Be like US, what is wrong with you. Most weak minded kids can not hold up against that in this society, the niave will get hurt the most by irresponsible sex. 



> It is not safe to assume that only alpha's have sex before marriage, nor is it wise. Also from the definition of an alpha, they are not bad boys either, so I do not know where you are getting your information from about alpha's.


I base my interpretation of ALPHA on one who has studied it far more than I..... Athol Kay .... I feel he is far more balanced than the Jacka**s who go around cutting up on Beta Men all over the internet... acting like Beta has no value at all -but slime to be trampled on. 

Athol Kay at least is "balanced" in sorting out the differences between Alpha and Beta -explaining they BOTH have value and a man needs both of them....but some are more tipped in 1 direction over the other ...My husbad is more tipped BETA, no doubt about it, he is still a wonderful man. 

*Alpha* = attraction building = Dopamine = In Love = Excitement

*Beta* = comfort building = Oxytocin / Vasopressin = Pair Bond = Calm Enjoyment 

Please read the chart- post #5 http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/23220-definitive-alpha-beta-thread.html , if you disagree with what he is saying here, Please explain. As for me, I will always say women are far more attracted to ALPHA men, because the traits of ALPHA are HOT and confident .


----------



## MrsKy

anonim said:


> I'm right here, tell me yourself.


CM is not taking you on because you made him look very foolish with his own past posts and his request for justice.


----------



## TiggyBlue

the alpha-beta thing for humans has always confused me


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Maricha75 said:


> OMG! Seriously? Did it ever occur to you that MAYBE SA's words about mental and emotional purity meant that the VICTIM felt that way? I have heard from a few rape victims that they THEMSELVES felt unpure...and these were atheist and pagan women. THEY felt that way. Their friends and family didn't! And, when I read SA's words, THAT is how I understood it. Not that SHE was saying they were unpure, but that THEY, THEMSELVES, felt that way.


Why is it that ONLY SOME people here understand me , MY Lord, Maricha-- you expressed it here -BINGO .... *I AM THE FRIENDS and FAMILY damn it *!!! 

You "get me" , my intentions with that post. God bless you!


----------



## Thundarr

that_girl said:


> People who are raped are not victims. We are survivors.
> 
> There is a difference. Just to be clear.


No disrespect intended.


----------



## Thundarr

anonim said:


> I dont see how you came to the conclusion that that definition was not an opinion. And although people that have been raped are not responsible for having been raped, you would be amazed at how many people treat them as though they are.


I can say one thing for sure. I would expect to learn a lot from any conversation about rape or abuse with you and/or anonim. 

My only value in such a conversation would be one of trying to understand.


----------



## Thundarr

abitlost said:


> the alpha-beta thing for humans has always confused me


Me too. They are ambiguous and mean something different to everyone.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Thundarr said:


> Me too. They are ambiguous and mean something different to everyone.


and based on wolf nature and half of the info is totally fictional or misguided


----------



## anony2

SimplyAmorous said:


> I don't agree with the books, I do not take the Bible literally at all, I also feel MAN wrote the book -in many ways, for his own gain. Though I still find wisdom in some of it...I use Reason, not religion.


 I too find wisdom in lots of it. I just have problems with some people's interpretation in it. I study religions fervently. All of them. 




SimplyAmorous said:


> I can see why it was a big deal back then -so men would know who fathered their children, think if you were the men of that time, please try to put yourself in their shoes. Seriously it makes sense. Today we have paternity tests, back then, it was all trust. Virginity held more value.


I can totally understand that part. I just do not understand the parts where it says the Hebrews could take the virgins in the other tribes. Probably because I know that rape would have to have been involved. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> Today every man has a right to get a Paternity Test if he questions if he is the father..... but I feel we are behind the times if -beyond so many months, regardless of results, he is deemed financially responsible if indeed he finds out the child was NOT his.....This is criminal.....Some things have not caught up with our times -with the liberation of sex in the modern world. Just my opinions. I feel they are fair.


 I think all men should have paternity tests. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> although some people ARE insecure about a sexual past, this is NOT the underlying issue with everyone -as I have tried so damn dilentgently here to express, it is the value placed ON THE ACT OF SEX... I am not insecure, but I still want a partner who views and upholds the act as I.
> 
> Please try to not paint everyone who feels as I -as insecure.


I don't think that you understood my post. I was saying that since women's sexuality has been controlled through religious beliefs, that the feminist movement would make SOME MEN feel insecure because it allows single women to be as sexually active as they wish to be by means of birth control. 




SimplyAmorous said:


> I enjoy porn so neither do I. You are confusing ME with the Bible, I never said it was immoral, But I do feel everyone who uses it should be responsible and NO, I don't see alot of that in this world today with children being born to countless men who take off, Grandparents raising them... who is teaching these children about sex, it's value. If I accually viewed it like everyone here thinks I do, then I would be on some crusade to shame everyone who uses sex responsibly-outside of marraige.... I am not.


That is good, because I have ran into several people that have and it is quite disturbing. I know of more than a few people that were raised by their grandparents. Most of the time it is because THEIR parents weren't raised right to begin with...so why are the grandparents raising their grandchildren if they didn't raise their own children?




SimplyAmorous said:


> You as a parent has the right to teach your kids any way you choose, your way is THE norm of today...even what they teach in the schools, with the happy passing out of condoms. I am in the minority here. I would like to see a world where those like myself will still survive in this modern world without being made to feel we are behind the times, get with the program, *Be like US, what is wrong with you. * Most weak minded kids can not hold up against that in this society, the niave will get hurt the most by irresponsible sex.


That is how I was made to feel because I was sexually active when I was 17. 
Fortunately, none of my children are weak minded. I just had the 'sex talk' with my 20 year old as I sent him back to college. He has been with his girlfriend for a year now and I told him that if he was going to do it, to use protection and that I am here if he needs to ask any questions. I feel that he is an adult now and capable of making his own decisions regarding sex. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> I base my interpretation of ALPHA on one who has studied it far more than I..... Athol Kay .... I feel he is far more balanced than the Jacka**s who go around cutting up on Beta Men all over the internet... acting like Beta has no value at all -but slime to be trampled on.
> Athol Kay at least is "balanced" in sorting out the differences between Alpha and Beta -explaining they BOTH have value and a man needs both of them....but some are more tipped in 1 direction over the other ...My husbad is more tipped BETA, no doubt about it, he is still a wonderful man.
> 
> *Alpha* = attraction building = Dopamine = In Love = Excitement
> 
> *Beta* = comfort building = Oxytocin / Vasopressin = Pair Bond = Calm Enjoyment
> 
> Please read the chart- post #5 http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/23220-definitive-alpha-beta-thread.html , if you disagree with what he is saying here, Please explain. As for me, I will always say women are far more attracted to ALPHA men, because the traits of ALPHA are HOT and confident .


That is what I was going on also. So that is why I did not understand what you meant. I agree with you about Beta's and all the others below those two labels, there is a place in this world for everyone.


----------



## that_girl

Do you remember that old grocery store called AlphaBeta?

:rofl: My gramma shopped there.


----------



## anony2

SimplyAmorous said:


> Why is it that ONLY SOME people here understand me , MY Lord, Maricha-- you expressed it here -BINGO .... *I AM THE FRIENDS and FAMILY damn it *!!!
> 
> You "get me" , my intentions with that post. God bless you!


It is always hard to understand what someone is saying on here. I have had that problem several times myself. Plus, we all have "outside" lives and sometimes, things are not going so well or in my case, I am on loads of meds right now, so I can come across pretty darn crabby even when I am not meaning to be.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *Originally Posted by anony2 *
> I was 11 when I was raped, I was molested before that, neither of which I could tell my parents about because of my religious upbringing. My virginity was stolen from me before I was able to know what virginity was. Since my hymen was not intact, I would not have been considered a virgin, therefore instantly I am "less valuable" than a woman that had her hymen intact?
> 
> Now, because of these things, I acted out when I got into my teens and even into my adulthood. Does this make me less of a person? Does this make me less valuable?
> 
> It doesn't to my husband and THAT is the only person that I am concerned about.



Ok everybody get you spears out

Anomy2
You are not less valuable to God but you will be to some people. I doubt that you being raped as a child is what will be the reason that some people see you as less valuable in their eyes. The part where you acted out in your adulthood will be a factor and some will see you as less valuable as a marriage spouse. I am not saying that is justice or anything like that but I know it to be true.

I also feel like maricha75 about anyone that molests a child. Those molesters need to be seriously hurt and if possible make it impossible for them to molest again.

Another thing that Mariacha said was:
“I'm glad you were able to work through it with counseling”
I sure hope you have fully recovered because those horrible things done to you as a child are very hard to fully recover from.

By the way it does not matter what people say about you including misguided, careless, ignorant, irresponsible, or phony Christians. When the brood of vipers (Religious hypocrites) tried to get the true and real Christian (Jesus) to condemn the adulterous woman what did Jesus do? He put them in their place and then said: 

St John 8
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, *Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more*.


Now this woman was an adulterous adult not an innocent child like you were. *So know and ACCEPT it within yourself that a terrible thing was done to you as child and you are TOTALLY INOCENT.* If Jesus would forgive an adult woman then he most certainly would never consider an innocent child as guilty of anything and would see that child as very valuable. In fact Jesus was most fond of children and only had harsh things to say about people a very few times. One was when a person hurt an innocent child. Jesus suggested drowning that molester!


Anomy2
*Jesus thinks you are very valuable and so does your husband. I hope you know that and accept that.* I suggest that you tell the rest of the people that think you are not valuable to kiss you’re A_ _!!!!!

Sorry for the cuss word I am not a very good Christian sometimes.


----------



## that_girl

And what if all that means nothing to some people? In my eyes, there is no blame on a child for any crime done against them.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

anony2 said:


> I was 11 when I was raped, I was molested before that, neither of which I could tell my parents about because of my religious upbringing. My virginity was stolen from me before I was able to know what virginity was. Since my hymen was not intact, I would not have been considered a virgin, therefore instantly I am "less valuable" than a woman that had her hymen intact?
> 
> Now, because of these things, I acted out when I got into my teens and even into my adulthood. Does this make me less of a person? Does this make me less valuable?
> 
> It doesn't to my husband and THAT is the only person that I am concerned about.
> 
> 
> ETA:
> 
> If virginity mattered so much to yours or anyone elses god, then he/she/it, would make sure that these things didn't happen because for every one of the women that got through their childhood without being raped or molested, there is one of us who didn't.


I did my last post BEFORE I read this.. I am sorry, I would NEVER NEVER NEVER look down on someone that went through something like this...... 

One of my best friends had 2 of her daughters molested by an Uncle (known these lovely girls since birth), the younger one started drawing pictures...of how she was feeling - with a lock on her mouth , for example....My friend became an advocate against sexual Abuse, and published a book with her daughters drawings....can be found on Amazon here >>> Amazon.com: Feeling Safe By Autumn Grace and Mom (9780615210292): Autumn Grace: Books

.... this was like a therapy for her, this girl is great friends with my sons, been to our house countless times over the years. 

I have some understanding of this issue. Me & this Mother talked deeply about their grief over these awful things that happened to their girls, my husband sat & listened to the father saying it took everything in him to not go and pull this man from limb to limb. We must protect our children. 

The way your parents went about raising you - in regards to their religious beliefs -you fearing their judgement like that is through & through WRONG, hurtful and against anything a GOOD God would have wanted, it was against LOVE... 

I think parents need to talk openly about the BAD things that happen in our world, none of us are immune, we can help lower the risk in many cases, but none are immune.

As for me & my husband....we do not sheild our kids from anything..as far as open communication... they know they can come to us with Anything & everything under the sun ....and not be ridiculed - we will talk about it, I even encourage them to argue with me -if they feel strongly on something --if I listen to them, they will listen to us. This is our way of parenting. 

IF I was the type of parent who would shame them for something like that.... SHAME SHAME SHAME on me.... I failed as a parent, screw religion --it is about helping the innocent. YOU were the innocent, you needed their love & acceptance Anony2.


ANd the way you acted out -- common common common, because of what happened to you. Your husband is a good man. 

I agree with you - why does GOD let Sh** like that happen, one of my biggest complaints since I was a young girl. I hate when children get cancer, makes me want to scream, life is very very unfair, all we can do is lower our odds, but still ...noone is immune to a nightmare, my whole family could be killed by a drunk driver tomorrow. Do I have issues with those who drink carelessly -hell yeah! This is where I come from in all of my views... that everything we do- can and often does affect others, including the innocent. 

So sorry for what you have been through.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By That Girl
> And what if all that means nothing to some people? In my eyes, there is no blame on a child for any crime done against them.
> 
> In my eyes, there is no blame on a child for any crime done against them.


To That Girl
Your post is a bit confusing to me. What post are you referring to? Are you referring to my post?


----------



## anony2

SimplyAmorous said:


> I did my last post BEFORE I read this.. I am sorry, I would NEVER NEVER NEVER look down on someone that went through something like this......
> 
> One of my best friends had 2 of her daughters molested by an Uncle (known these lovely girls since birth), the younger one started drawing pictures...of how she was feeling - with a lock on her mouth , for example....My friend became an advocate against sexual Abuse, and published a book with her daughters drawings....can be found on Amazon here >>> Amazon.com: Feeling Safe By Autumn Grace and Mom (9780615210292): Autumn Grace: Books
> 
> .... this was like a therapy for her, this girl is great friends with my sons, been to our house countless times over the years.
> 
> I have some understanding of this issue. Me & this Mother talked deeply about their grief over these awful things that happened to their girls, my husband sat & listened to the father saying it took everything in him to not go and pull this man from limb to limb. We must protect our children.
> 
> You know what is sad about her story... I remember the day she told me this Uncle was accused of doing something with a child, but since her sister married him, and they had a child, and this was ages ago, he must be OK.... no problems, well I told her to NOT allow those kids to spend the night there, I wouldn't do it...
> 
> But she did allow them.. and well ...this is what happened. If it wasn't for the little brother saying something to raise a red flag, the girls may have never spoken up, as he threatened them.
> 
> The way your parents went about raising you - in regards to their religious beliefs -you fearing their judgement like that is through & through WRONG, hurtful and against anything a GOOD God would have wanted, it was against LOVE...
> 
> I think parents need to talk openly about the BAD things that happen in our world, none of us are immune, we can help lower the risk in many cases, but none are immune.
> 
> As for me & my husband....we do not sheild our kids from anything..as far as open communication... they know they can come to us with EVERYTHING and will not be ridiculed - we will talk about it, I even encourage them to argue with me -if they feel strongly on sometime, if I listen to them, they will listen to us. This is our way of parenting.
> 
> IF I was the type of parent who would shame them for something like that.... SHAME SHAME SHAME on me, I failed as a parent, screw religion --it is about helping the innocent. YOU were the innocent, you needed their love & acceptance Anony2.
> 
> 
> ANd the way you acted out -- common common common, because of what happened to you. Your husband is a good man.
> 
> I agree with you - why does GOD let Sh** like that happen, one of my biggest complaints since I was a young girl. I hate when children get cancer, makes me want to scream, life is very very unfair, all we can do is lower our odds, but still ...noone is immune to a nightmare, my whole family could be killed by a drunk driver tomorrow. Do I have issues with those who drink carelessly -hell yeah! This is where I come from in all of my views... that everything we do- can and often does affect others, including the innocent.
> 
> So sorry for that you have been through.


Yes, the acting out is so common. My oldest son's best friend was molested when he was a child, by a male baby sitter. His whole life he acted out, he was taking drugs and my son tried and tried to help him. He died two years ago of a drug overdose. When they were younger, this boy stayed at my house for weeks on end because his parents were going through problems. He was like one of my own children. I had talked to him several times on the issue, but it was like he could not feel the emotions associated with it. It was hard for me to also. At the counseling session where I finally told the counselor what happened, she asked me how I felt. I told her that I hated myself and I wanted to die. She did not act surprised at all. It took everything in me not to want to run and hide....but that is what I had done with those emotions for SO long. I stuffed them all down. 

My second son was also molested as was my mother and my niece.


----------



## that_girl

My sisters and I were sexually abused. They took the acting out sexually road...lost their virginity at 13 and 15 (twins). I took the other route....*I* would say who the next person would be. It would be MY choice. Not to say that my sisters didn't make that choice, but I think it was more of a rebellion thing. We all self-medicated for a while, them longer than I. But we're all professionals with families now, so...we're ok 

I didn't tell my husband about my sexual abuse because it didn't affect my sexuality by the time I was 31. He knows about it now, just as I know about him being brutally beaten by his parents. Sure it shaped us, but, we're ok.


----------



## Created2Write

lovelygirl said:


> just because someone has had only one partner doesn't mean they know less.
> Because you said you always kept on dating selfish and prick guys in the past. That means you hardly learned anything from your mistakes given that you used to repeat them all over again.
> Going through hundreds of relationships and making the same mistakes is the same as being inexperienced or not having been in a relationship at all and worse than having had just one partner with/from whom you've learned everything you need to know.
> The number of the relationships in the past doesn't define your maturity level in the relationship and the experience you've had.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:


----------



## Created2Write

that_girl said:


> So, no pure males in here  ?
> 
> I just don't buy it. you can say what YOU are meaning it to mean, but I don't buy it.
> Don't tell me that a woman can have anal sex, oral sex, whatever sex and not VAGINAL sex and still be "pure", by your terms.
> 
> Sorry.


All of those things are still considered sexual acts, though.


----------



## Created2Write

that_girl said:


> The way I look at it, I was 31 when I met my husband. And I had a child.  LOL! Had I been weird about sex, he wouldn't have dated me...he's HD, and very open about his sexuality. He was 24 at that time, so it's not like he asked me out because he thought I was "pure". :rofl:
> 
> We are who we are. Enjoy life. There is someone out there that will appreciate you for you. If i had married someone who kept bringing up my "unfavorable" past, we'd not be married long. I look at the now and the future...if you live in the past, you are missing out on life.


Just for clarification...do you mean that only wanting one sexual partner throughout your life makes someone "weird" when it comes to sex? 

Cause, my sexual relationship with my husband is a great relationship. I didn't need to learn how to please _him_ by being with other guys. And absolutely _nothing_ that he "learned" from the other women has made our sexual relationship any easier. I mean, the basics aren't difficult to figure out. And details differ between each individual anyway.


----------



## that_girl

Where did I say it was weird to want only one person? I am saying that my husband knew I had been with someone else. It was no secret. "Weird" about sex meaning if I wasn't into it. If I somehow had hangups. 1-1,000 partners, people can be weird about sex.

I don't think it's "weird" to want anything. For me, personally, I wouldn't have dated someone where I was his only.


----------



## Created2Write

that_girl said:


> Yea. Sounds good, Thundarr. But I don't agree.
> 
> If someone cheated 15 years ago in a dating relationship, and had some other relationships that were healthy, etc, I really don't care about the cheating 15 years ago.
> 
> It's not about hiding the past. Some things are just forgotten because they are no longer a part of the person's lives. I get that.
> 
> I didn't tell my husband anything he didn't ask. If he asked, I told him. If he didn't, I didn't share. what is the big deal? Some mystery is key  lol. He asked what was important to him, and I asked what was important to me. Sure, we could have lied, but we didn't.


To each their own. I would never date or marry or even consider being with someone if they had ever cheated. I've been cheated on, and it hurts. A lot. 

And, for clarification, since there are some pretty harsh generalities that have been said about those who only want one sexual partner in their life...in my past relationships I didn't deny them sex because I was a prude. I wanted to know that they were with me for more than sex. And, obviously, they weren't since they left me when they didn't get any. _That_ is painful. And my husband revels in the fact that he got me, not them. 

The guy I dated before my husband told me that I respected my values and would never pressure me to have sex, and would never make me feel bad for not having sex. He didn't know it, but I was considering giving him oral sex when he came home on leave. (He was a Marine) Depending on how he treated me in person(we had only had one official date at that point, and hadn't even kissed yet), I was considering going further than I was willing to just to show him how much I appreciated hi respect of my values. 

Right before he came home, he dumped me. Said it was the sex. _Did not_ feel good. It made me feel like I was nothing more than a vagina. 

My husband and I didn't have sex until we were engaged, and treated me so well during that time. We had some major fights(I had major baggage) and he continued to stick around. I trusted him completely.


----------



## Created2Write

Maricha75 said:


> First, it's horrible that this happened to you! I can't even imagine going through something like that.
> 
> Second, I am guessing that your parents are/were Christians? Or professed to be Christians? Well, I can honestly say that as a Christian, I would do bodily harm to ANYONE who violated my child...whether my sons or my daughter. It would take an act of GOD to keep me from trying to kill them. It's not right for parents to look down on their children...really it's not right for ANYONE to look down on anyone else.... anyway, if a parent looks poorly on a child because of something they have no control over... UGH! It pisses me off reading things like that!
> 
> But, I agree with you...what matters is what your husband thinks. Really, he's the only one who matters.


I agree. And I would like to add that "religious" people are not perfect. Their interpretations of the Bible does not mean that they are accurate. Rape and molestation _are not_ the fault of the person being raped or molested, and _no_ it does not make anyone less valuable, male or female. Anyone who thinks otherwise is heartless.


----------



## that_girl

Created2write, I love that. It's good to stand your ground. It does hurt to feel used. I felt like that for most of my 20s. My mom put religious garbage on me, and guilt, and shame....about sex. I had to shake that and figure out what *I* believed. And it wasn't what she believed. Funny thing about my mom, she won't tell me ANYTHING about her past, but her sisters have told me...even my dad told me some things. It's amazing how hypocritical she is...telling me that sex is dirty and should be waited until marriage...while she was sleeping with people left and right before marriage. I guess SHE learned her lesson and just thought I should learn from her 'mistakes' as well. Problem was, she didn't tell me her past...she just told me what I could and couldn't do. It was very confusing. I had no one to talk to about sex. No one to ask about sex. If I just brought it up, hypothetically, I would be shamed into silence. Not cool. I was a good kid. I was a smart woman. I didn't sleep with anyone I didn't choose to sleep with, and I dont' regret any of my lovers. I do regret some make-out sessions though :rofl: EW! But, I am very open about sex with my 13 year old. I want her to know that I am human. She is human...she will have needs. I hope she talks to me before she goes to her friends. eesh.

I dated a LOT that year when I decided I was set out to find my match. lol It was like a bad TV movie. ANYWAY, I didn't sleep with any of the guys I dated...tried to weed out the lunatics. At my age, there are a lot of lunatics...I guess at any age really...but i wasn't going to chance it.

However, when I met my husband, that was IT. I wanted him...in the worst way.  Honestly, I told my friend about a month before H and I started dating, "I am going to marry that man...I know something is going to happen with him...and it's going to be quick, whatever it is." And it was...quick. Not the sex :rofl: But our whirlwind relationship.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Created2Write
> I agree. And I would like to add that "religious" people are not perfect. Their interpretations of the Bible does not mean that they are accurate.


I had a tendency when I was young to look to “Religious people” to guide me to my faith. For me it was a big mistake because I put my responsibility on the “religious people” Now I use other methods of my choosing such as the Bible, prayer, life experiences, people that have my best interest at heart that I know have proven to have wisdom and many other ways.

There are some religious people that have been a help to me but now I have put them in the right light. That light includes me not putting them on a pedestal or expecting them to give me what I can get for myself from God. 

I cannot use the cop out with the line of, the “Religious people” did me wrong and they can keep me down. It is my responsibility to seek God and His ways and nobody else is responsible for me. Every man will be accountable for himself!

I find that the more I please God and follow His lead the less I need approval from mankind.


----------



## lovelygirl

anonim said:


> But its 'pure' if you masturbate at 7 y/o?


Really????

Masturbating at 7 y/o has NOTHING to do with 'pure' or 'unpure'.
Please, leave these ridiculous terms aside, ESPECIALLY when comparing it to being raped. It's really irrelevant and you're way out of line!

Masturbation is a physical/biological need, just like you need to have sex or even just like you need to drink/eat.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By FalconKing
> This is why I say a persons sexual history matters.
> ________________________________________
> No matter how many times I explain why I feel someone's history matters people read it as something else. But if a woman says it matters people are less hostile. They are less hostile because they are reading it as "Yeah! Men screw up too!" Because me being a man saying this automatically means I'm putting down women.


Is that why the only ones that answered by questions about sex were women? Are the men afraid of the hostility?


A brief summary of the answers to my number one (1) question is below:

1 
Would you consider your wife/husband keeping himself/herself pure as something special in the marriage?

I can say that I certainly do wish that I had been his only. And he has said the same.
*By Created2Write*

Yes	
*By CandiGirl*

I absolutely view it as special to keep oneself pure for marriage.
*Maricha75*

If you mean pure as in "virginal", no.
*2ntnuf*

For me, no
*By French Fry*

Most definitely Special
*SimplyAmorus*

Hell naw
*MrsKY*


----------



## heartsbeating

SimplyAmorous said:


> I believe I stand alone in choosing a man who had the same values as myself...


I feel my husband and I shared the same values. Even though I wasn't his first, his values were still in line with mine. I asked him about this topic and we're still on the same page in our thinking.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *anoy2 said*: I know of more than a few people that were raised by their grandparents. Most of the time it is because THEIR parents weren't raised right to begin with...so why are the grandparents raising their grandchildren if they didn't raise their own children?


 Their heart is bigger than allowing social services to take them for one.

But really.....someone needs to stand up and break what seems a generational problem -learning from parents mistakes instead of repeating them with their own children. I don't have the answer, we can't change people, people are very stubborn ..... they will do what they want to do & shun their noses at anyone who questions them or offers another way.... walk into the fire -many feel they need to learn the hard way. But there is often a price....for our choices, depending ....it may drag others down into that fire, the innocent , which unfortunetely sets them on shaky ground with tremendous obstacles to overcome early in their lives. 



> *ThatGirl said*: My mom put religious garbage on me, and guilt, and shame....about sex. I had to shake that and figure out what *I* believed. And it wasn't what she believed. Funny thing about my mom, she won't tell me ANYTHING about her past, but her sisters have told me...even my dad told me some things. It's amazing how hypocritical she is...telling me that sex is dirty and should be waited until marriage...while she was sleeping with people left and right before marriage. I guess SHE learned her lesson and just thought I should learn from her 'mistakes' as well. Problem was, she didn't tell me her past...she just told me what I could and couldn't do. It was very confusing. I had no one to talk to about sex. No one to ask about sex. If I just brought it up, hypothetically, I would be shamed into silence. Not cool. I was a good kid.


 I have a question.... what if your Mother did talk to you -what if she spoke openly and honestly about her past with many men and she had many regrets, what if she shared with you her heart of deep hurt, scarring & pain -vulnerable before you? 

IN that scenerio....Would you still see her as a Hypocrite and shaming if she was just trying to convey how....she would do her life over again and not in the manner she lived it ...and wanted better for her daughter ? Would the message have been received different if she was humble about it - and not shaming before you? 

I agree with you, that your Mother did NOT handle the communication about sex at all well with you. She brow beat one thing into you- with no explanations whatsoever of the good or bad that could flow from various choices. 

I do not believe we can learn anything from somoene who HIDES who they are, if they do not speak with







, it generally falls on deaf ears -and for good reason. 


My Mother never hid anything from me, she was very open & honest about her regrets before me, and how it messed her up emotionally ...set her on a wrong path in life.......she wanted better for me.....I seen her







in that..... she only blamed herself for her mistakes, never anyone else, not even the men.... and I admired that in her.


----------



## marriedguy

I dont think anyone is a hypocrite just because they want you to live a different life than they did..even if they dont tell you the life they lived..maybe they are ashamed of their past..
Theres been people in my life who want me to be a certain way even though they didnt live it..while it's tough to accept their preaching or lectures because I actually do know their secrets of the past..it doesn't matter who they were, they are now who they are because of who they were in the past and if they had not been that someone they may not have learned the leasons they learned...

I dont agree with a million things my father did when he was younger..things he did to my mother, to other people, to society, and people of the church and the law..but I don't care..actually I admire him for not being perfect..now I can talk to him without a feeling of being judged by someone who demands perfection..
He understands that nobody is perfect..he still lives an odd life..but he's got life experience that I dont have and I will listen to him for advice any day..

It does help that he doesn't try to enforce me to be a certain way..

As far as vrginity..I think if you have anal sex before marriage you are not a virgin..oral you still are..not as pure of one but it's not full out sex..
Sounds hypocrytical..maybe..but I just feel that penetration is losing your virginity..oral to me is play..sure you are breaking the rules, and you may not be a true traditional virgin..but speaking from experience I thinj that theres a HUGE difference between oral sex, and penetration vaginally or Anally.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anony2

that_girl said:


> Created2write, I love that. It's good to stand your ground. It does hurt to feel used. I felt like that for most of my 20s. My mom put religious garbage on me, and guilt, and shame....about sex. I had to shake that and figure out what *I* believed. And it wasn't what she believed. Funny thing about my mom, she won't tell me ANYTHING about her past, but her sisters have told me...even my dad told me some things. It's amazing how hypocritical she is...telling me that sex is dirty and should be waited until marriage...while she was sleeping with people left and right before marriage. I guess SHE learned her lesson and just thought I should learn from her 'mistakes' as well. Problem was, she didn't tell me her past...she just told me what I could and couldn't do. It was very confusing. I had no one to talk to about sex. No one to ask about sex. If I just brought it up, hypothetically, I would be shamed into silence. Not cool. I was a good kid. I was a smart woman. I didn't sleep with anyone I didn't choose to sleep with, and I dont' regret any of my lovers. I do regret some make-out sessions though :rofl: EW! But, I am very open about sex with my 13 year old. I want her to know that I am human. She is human...she will have needs. I hope she talks to me before she goes to her friends. eesh.
> 
> I dated a LOT that year when I decided I was set out to find my match. lol It was like a bad TV movie. ANYWAY, I didn't sleep with any of the guys I dated...tried to weed out the lunatics. At my age, there are a lot of lunatics...I guess at any age really...but i wasn't going to chance it.
> 
> However, when I met my husband, that was IT. I wanted him...in the worst way.  Honestly, I told my friend about a month before H and I started dating, "I am going to marry that man...I know something is going to happen with him...and it's going to be quick, whatever it is." And it was...quick. Not the sex :rofl: But our whirlwind relationship.


My mom did the same thing. She hid her past and she told me that men only wanted women for one thing. So every sexual encounter, I was subconsciously thinking that they were using me and it was hard for me not to look at EVERY man as if they were predators. Now, I can see why my mom was that way though, so I do not hold it against her. 

My mom was the 8th child born to my grandparents. They were thinking about adopting her out, the man that molested my mom was the man that they were going to give her to. The man and his wife were a friend of my grandparents, so they visited often. Thankfully, the adoption plans fell through and she stayed with her parents. She never told her parents either.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

heartsbeating said:


> I feel my husband and I shared the same values. Even though I wasn't his first, his values were still in line with mine. I asked him about this topic and we're still on the same page in our thinking.


Values was the *wrong* word here







.... what I meant was...I specifically wanted a virgin male-who has not stuck his junk in anyone else.... Yes...That was MY desire, even my prayer. Maybe I was just lucky to find one...that appealed to me greatly. But we were young. 

Which is very strange for most women, since generally they want the guy with some experience. I've seen alot of cutting up on in-experienced males on this forum - like there is something wrong with them. I just hate to see that. I think many of them have good hearts because they are waiting for the love of their life. I would never down such a man, or think he is less. I would hold that type up higher. 

I think Maricha , Created2write and myself are the only ones who would have wanted that on this thread- as far as women...it clearly is NOT something women care about at all.

But it didn't matter to them that one had a little more experience, just as you Heartsbeating, Yes, you still have the same values--just as they did, and even those with more partners did as well. So again, Values was the wrong word here ... 

I guess what I really meant to say is....I am not one of these women downing men for having more partners, because I would not have wanted one of them anyway. Had I not met my husband -chances are that is what I would have ended up with though. And just like Created2 write, I would have wished I was his 1st. Not out of insecurity, but just out of the "specialness" of that.


----------



## CandieGirl

larry.gray said:


> The post is too difficult to read anyway so why bother....


Carib was the one who linked it in the first place, trying to find his scientific proof....:rofl:


----------



## anony2

SimplyAmorous said:


> Values was the *wrong* word here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .... what I meant was...I specifically wanted a virgin male-who has not stuck his junk in anyone else.... Yes...That was MY desire, even my prayer. Maybe I was just lucky to find one...that appealed to me greatly. But we were young.
> 
> Which is very strange for most women, since generally they want the guy with some experience. I've seen alot of cutting up on in-experienced males on this forum - like there is something wrong with them. I just hate to see that. I think many of them have good hearts because they are waiting for the love of their life. I would never down such a man, or think he is less. I would hold that type up higher.
> 
> I think Maricha , Created2write and myself are the only ones who would have wanted that on this thread- as far as women...it clearly is NOT something women care about at all.
> 
> But it didn't matter to them that one had a little more experience, just as you Heartsbeating, Yes, you still have the same values--just as they did, and even those with more partners did as well. So again, Values was the wrong word here ...
> 
> I guess what I really meant to say is....I am not one of these women downing men for having more partners, because I would not have wanted one of them anyway. Had I not met my husband -chances are that is what I would have ended up with though. And just like Created2 write, I would have wished I was his 1st. * Not out of insecurity, but just out of the "specialness" of that.*


But with that ideology comes the implication that a man/woman who is not a virgin cannot achieve that "specialness" of sex with their partner since they aren't the first. 

This is what many of us have been attempting to say all along: It* doesn't matter* if CM has had MANY sexual partners, he achieved the "specialness" of sex with his wife...NOT because she was a virgin, but because they worked together to make it work. 

So the ideology of 'purity' is really an illusion.


----------



## CandieGirl

Caribbean Man said:


> Would you marry a man who cheated on you while you dated him?
> Or would you even advise your daughter or any female to do so?


No I wouldn't. I never have put up with that kind of crap. I figure if he wants to go sticking it in someone else, or chatting up someone else onlinle (or whatever form of cheating he chooses) he can go right on ahead, but he can't have me, too.

And I also wouldn't reconcile with a husband who cheated either, but there are plenty of people on this very board who do just that. And THAT is another story for another thread.

As far as counselling other females? I've tried on TAM to get women to see sense with regards to their cheating mates, and continually get met with resistance and defense on their parts. So why bother? Some women just aren't strong enough to walk away from a cheater, they stick around so that he can just keep on doing it.

(Also applies to cheating women, just so I don't get lambasted for that, too.)


----------



## CandieGirl

that_girl said:


> I somewhat see what she's saying.
> 
> While I did leave my ex for someone, I wasn't sexual with the other person until I was free. However, i was never married, my ex never wanted to marry me, and he told me I'm only the mother of his child. lol. Fine.
> 
> In my relationships after that I would lose interest and break up but always had someone in my sights. That's dating, no? I waited a LONG TIME to take vows because I KNEW I wouldn't mean them. So I dated and figured out myself and what I wanted and didn't want. It was fun and....sometimes tiring...sometimes sad. Hearts were broken, mine included. Oh well.
> 
> When I took vows, I meant every word. I wouldn't have said them had I not meant them. I read them every morning because I've painted them on our wall over our wedding pic across from our bed. Who reads them daily? People should.
> 
> Maybe people cheated in the past on people, learned from it and wouldn't dream of doing it again.


I was just trying to point out that Carib keeps on posting links to pointless articles that have little to do with the discussion at hand...I thought we were talking marriage, here. Not dating.


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

It doesn't matter to everyone. Both my husband and I did not discuss this in our entire marriage. We never focus on the past, we focus in the now and near future. We have a very strong marriage.


----------



## anony2

CandieGirl said:


> I was just trying to point out that Carib keeps on posting links to pointless articles that have little to do with the discussion at hand...*I thought we were talking marriage, here. Not dating*.


THAT is what I was attempting to point out on the actual "scientific study". I am glad someone else figured that out.


----------



## CandieGirl

that_girl said:


> Yea. Sounds good, Thundarr. But I don't agree.
> 
> *If someone cheated 15 years ago in a dating relationship, and had some other relationships that were healthy, etc, I really don't care about the cheating 15 years ago.*
> 
> It's not about hiding the past. Some things are just forgotten because they are no longer a part of the person's lives. I get that.
> 
> I didn't tell my husband anything he didn't ask. If he asked, I told him. If he didn't, I didn't share. what is the big deal? Some mystery is key  lol. He asked what was important to him, and I asked what was important to me. *Sure, we could have lied, but we didn't*.


This is exactly it. This right here.


----------



## CandieGirl

anony2 said:


> THAT is what I was attempting to point out on the actual "scientific study". I am glad someone else figured that out.


All you have to do is read...that's all.


----------



## CandieGirl

Mr Blunt said:


> Is that why the only ones that answered by questions about sex were women? Are the men afraid of the hostility?
> 
> 
> A brief summary of the answers to my number one (1) question is below:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes
> *By CandiGirl*
> 
> 
> 
> [/I]




And this is the rest of what I wrote:

_Yes, however in these modern times, with my peers, in addition to my own age, it would be extremely rare. A nice idea, though, if you're 20 and being set up in an arranged marriage. (Don't you half-quote me!)_


----------



## SimplyAmorous

anony2 said:


> So the ideology of 'purity' is really an illusion.


First or all -sexual purity means basically cow manure to anyone outside of some sort of spiritual belief. So even having a discussion on it- we are coming from 2 different mindsets, we will never agree. 

I suppose everything that enters our brain ...we have the ability to look at it any way we want too...... we can self-feed ourselves any messages and believe them .... whatever makes us feel good. Things like Destiny - a recent thread on that... that is likely an *illusion*, it can't be proven - but men & women will continue to believe, it is spiritual somehow....humans feel good to believe some things are destined - those beautiful things that happened against the odds in our life, those powerful blessings seem hand delivered to us....This belief brings a smile to our faces.... Should we downplay how others feel in this , I ask.

Also the idea of soul mates...another *illusion*, but we like that....even Prayers answerd -likely another *illusion*, not like we can prove God had a hand in anything....other than "WOW, did that really happen, God must have been watching over me". It makes us feel good. 

**** *il·lu·sion  *

*1.* something that deceives by producing a false or misleading impression of reality. 
*2.* the state or condition of being deceived; misapprehension. 
*3*. an instance of being deceived.
*4.* a perception, as of visual stimuli (optical illusion), that represents what is perceived in a way different from the way it is in reality. 

I don't feel I am misrepresenting anything , or using deception to express how much that might mean to us, that only he has been with me, only I have been with him in the fusion of our most private places. It is very special to us both... no doubt it would be to anyone who was in our shoes. 

If I find JOY in this Idea -isn't this my right... just as CM and his wife - have gotten past his sexual partners, and found the same thing...I have no doubt he has..... He has not shared his full story of the struggle his wife had with his past but I have seen him mention it... There is (sometimes) a PRICE to someone's past... we did not experience that. 

I believe Love can get past ANYTHING in this world... yes, even cheating... none of us are perfect, so long as there is breathe, there is hope, new beginnings, but the past is not so easily washed in the ocean for all. 

I feel it is just human nature to look at ourselves, over our past lives- with a spirit of acceptance and make PEACE with all we have lived through...we need to do that -to go on sometimes. 

I read some books on "waiting " when I was a teen, one thing that stuck out to me was the fact..we all have memories (this is not an illusion)... had I had many partners, I do believe some memories of them could come up in my psyche ...and his also.. I AM someone who does go over my past, I cherish much of it -for the most part....because I have tried to make good choices along the way. I've had wrong things done to me, those I have let go, and made peace with them as well. Funny how my husband remembers some of the very hurtful things my step mother did to me -that I have totally forgotten. 

I didn't want those memories to be with someone else. I don't feel however, everyone looks upon their past as much as another person, so not a big deal to many. For me, however, I believe it could have been. I still get mad at myself for taking my husband for granted in our past... and hurting him.


----------



## marriedguy

Sexual history could matter if you have an ex that did a bunch of things that your current spouse doesn't do..
I don't have an ex, and was a virgin when I got married(as was my wife)..so she's got no bad sexual experiences before me..she did some touching with some of her ex'es, but says she's completely blocked that from her memory which I find hard to believe because one guy she was with for two years!

But she believes that everything happens for a reason and if something bad happens she's able to get rid of the memory quickly..
except if it's something really tragic..

I wanted a virgin when I got married...now I kinda wish my wife had had sex with mutiple partners..even some crazy college sex or somethin, maybe then she would be more exually awakened 
But it could also mean she may have kids, or stds or somethin..stuff that wouldve been too much for me so I wouldve judged her and moved on...I was like "she must be a virgin or its see you later!"

I even prayed for a virgin...I feel like I got the perfect wife in pretty much every way except sexually..sometimes I feel like god is punishing me for being so judgemental before
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anony2

SimplyAmorous said:


> First or all -sexual purity means basically cow manure to anyone outside of some sort of spiritual belief. So even having a discussion on it- we are coming from 2 different mindsets, we will never agree.
> 
> I suppose everything that enters our brain ...we have the ability to look at it any way we want too...... we can self-feed ourselves any messages and believe them .... whatever makes us feel good. Things like Destiny - a recent thread on that... that is likely an *illusion*, it can't be proven - but men & women will continue to believe, it is spiritual somehow....humans feel good to believe some things are destined - those beautiful things that happened against the odds in our life, those powerful blessings seem hand delivered to us....This belief brings a smile to our faces.... Should we downplay how others feel in this , I ask.
> 
> Also the idea of soul mates...another *illusion*, but we like that....even Prayers answerd -likely another *illusion*, not like we can prove God had a hand in anything....other than "WOW, did that really happen, God must have been watching over me". It makes us feel good.
> 
> **** *il·lu·sion  *
> 
> *1.* something that deceives by producing a false or misleading impression of reality.
> *2.* the state or condition of being deceived; misapprehension.
> *3*. an instance of being deceived.
> *4.* a perception, as of visual stimuli (optical illusion), that represents what is perceived in a way different from the way it is in reality.
> 
> I don't feel I am misrepresenting anything , or using deception to express how much that might mean to us, that only he has been with me, only I have been with him in the fusion of our most private places. It is very special to us both... no doubt it would be to anyone who was in our shoes.
> 
> If I find JOY in this Idea -isn't this my right... just as CM and his wife - have gotten past his sexual partners, and found the same thing...I have no doubt he has..... He has not shared his full story of the struggle his wife had with his past but I have seen him mention it... There is (sometimes) a PRICE to someone's past... we did not experience that.
> 
> I believe Love can get past ANYTHING in this world... yes, even cheating... none of us are perfect, so long as there is breathe, there is hope, new beginnings, but the past is not so easily washed in the ocean for all.
> 
> I feel it is just human nature to look at ourselves, over our past lives- with a spirit of acceptance and make PEACE with all we have lived through...we need to do that -to go on sometimes.
> 
> I read some books on "waiting " when I was a teen, one thing that stuck out to me was the fact..we all have memories (this is not an illusion)... had I had many partners, I do believe some memories of them could come up in my psyche ...and his also.. I AM someone who does go over my past, I cherish much of it -for the most part....because I have tried to make good choices along the way. I've had wrong things done to me, those I have let go, and made peace with them as well. Funny how my husband remembers some of the very hurtful things my step mother did to me -that I have totally forgotten.
> 
> I didn't want those memories to be with someone else. I don't feel however, everyone looks upon their past as much as another person, so not a big deal to many. For me, however, I believe it could have been. I still get mad at myself for taking my husband for granted in our past... and hurting him.


Sure it is your right to believe this, but when it is spoken, then it gives the idea that people that have not done as you did are some how UNPURE and that is where this ideology is harmful, especially to us that have had our virginity taken away by force. 

I know this is not your intention, I am just making you aware of the consequences of this thought process.


----------



## that_girl

I guess I could have married a virgin too, had I married someone out of HS. Being "virginal" was important to me. Most HS boys don't have sex because they love someone, but because they want to "stink their junk in people" as SA nicely put it. lolol. 

But I didn't really date in HS...then I went to college, graduated, got knocked up (oops!) , went back to college to get my teaching credential, and lived a little. I was single by choice for a long time. I learned to be truly self sufficient. I didn't need a man for anything, except companionship.  That felt great! 

By the time I was ready at 31 to settle down, I didn't want a virgin. And honestly, at the time of dating, I was dating men in their mid 30s, early 40s, and not only was being a virgin unrealistic, it wasn't on my radar. I did date a 41 year old man for almost 3 years who had only 2 partners before me. I don't know if it was because of his sexual hangup, or the fact that he had never had a long relationship, but...as nice and fun as he was, that was a waste of 3 years of my life. So many weird issues. And towards the end of our relationship, I found his porn stash. Yuck. I'm not a porn person, and this genre of porn was just....yuck. lol. It is my opinion that people who are not in touch with their sexuality, virgin or not, will give me a weird sex life. No thanks.

My husband and my relationship is the only one I've had that actually was a mutually awesome situation. I never thought about the memories he could have with someone else, because they broke up for a reason. I have memories, but they are fading in time. Nothing compares to what H and I have...memories are just memories.


----------



## anonim

that_girl said:


> My sisters and I were sexually abused. They took the acting out sexually road...lost their virginity at 13 and 15 (twins). I took the other route....*I* would say who the next person would be. It would be MY choice. Not to say that my sisters didn't make that choice, but I think it was more of a rebellion thing. We all self-medicated for a while, them longer than I. But we're all professionals with families now, so...we're ok
> 
> I didn't tell my husband about my sexual abuse because it didn't affect my sexuality by the time I was 31. He knows about it now, just as I know about him being brutally beaten by his parents. Sure it shaped us, but, we're ok.


its strange how people respond differently to being abused sexually, like the contrast between you and your sisters.

What is saddest to me, and which makes me most angry, is how certain people judge, shame and label those who 'act out' without regard to what their 'acting out' is a symptom of, and yet have been willing to 'take advantage' of those 'acting out'

To me they are as much a problem as the people that actually molest/sexually abuse/rape because they inhibit healing and create social environs where it is hard as hell to come out and say 'I was raped' or "I was molested'

In my lifetime, 3 women and 1 man have been able to tell me that they were sexually abused as children. I have no doubt that the abusers of these people abused others because they took advantage of opportunity to do this.


----------



## anonim

lovelygirl said:


> Really????
> 
> Masturbating at 7 y/o has NOTHING to do with 'pure' or 'unpure'.
> Please, leave these ridiculous terms aside, ESPECIALLY when comparing it to being raped. It's really irrelevant and you're way out of line!
> 
> Masturbation is a physical/biological need, just like you need to have sex or even just like you need to drink/eat.


Yes really.

If being raped makes you physically unpure, then so does masturbating regardless of being 7 or 70.

And if masturbating has nothing to do with purity, then neither does being raped or molested.

Masturbation is not a physical need. Dont compare it to eating or drinking because you wont die if you dont masturbate.

It might be a physiological desire though.


----------



## Thundarr

anonim said:


> Yes really.
> 
> If being raped makes you physically unpure, then so does masturbating regardless of being 7 or 70.
> 
> And if masturbating has nothing to do with purity, then neither does being raped or molested.
> 
> Masturbation is not a physical need. Dont compare it to eating or drinking because you wont die if you dont masturbate.
> 
> It might be a physiological desire though.


These are two different topics. Masterbation is not related to abuse and neither one affects the definition of the other. Masterbation is normal and healthy. I don't feel qualified to say much about abuse accept that I know it's devastating and traumatic.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

anony2 said:


> Sure it is your right to believe this, but when it is spoken, then it gives the idea that people that have not done as you did are some how UNPURE and that is where this ideology is harmful, especially to us that have had our virginity taken away by force.
> 
> I know this is not your intention, I am just making you aware of the consequences of this thought process.


I appreciate you feel it is not my intention....

Ok, well let me ask you this.... everyone here posting on this thread is speaking about their experiences, past experiences... speaking their hearts -and pretty openly too -which is great. :smthumbup: They are also vocal in speaking their *feelings* on how they look at their past. 

Should I be less forthcoming in how I feel when a direct question have been asked -- should I reign in MY feelings because it may make another feel less somehow... It's just my experience.









Ya know... I have thought about this... feeling I need to downplay my feelings here -because people won't believe a word I say, they'll think I am living a freaking fairy tale, or downplaying any real troubles -or why else would I be on a marraige forum. I did have some struggles when I landed here...very open about it too.... I just got hooked... (damn addiction)..

Every marriage has some issues somewhere at times.... I am so sure many here have a more robust/more positions/more flirty texts/hand cuffs & role played sex life than my own- beings my husband is not Mr Adventurous....I bring the adventure to our bedroom life....one of my gripes at times -especially during my high drive phase.... but we worked through it...faithfully & acceptingly of each other. 

When I read posts going on about How adventerously erotic some husbands are ....sometimes I feel....I might want a "peice of that" experience too -some of that lusty aggressiveness/unpredictability..... But I wouldn't want anyone to downplay their experiences ...just cause I may envy a little of that. 

Does that makes sense? 

I personally am the type that would prefer making love over Wild sex anyway -because I am more sentimental & mushy, so for this -I believe I married the right type of man -for who I am. I think every one of us have some pluses & minues in varies areas of our marraige -that need worked on ,we could UP something.... whether that be in our sex life, housekeeping, our parenting, communication, speaking our spouses love languages more....could be anything.... But we love each other anyway. 



> *That girl said*: Most HS boys don't have sex because they love someone, but because they want to "stink their junk in people"


 I agree, most do, and our daughters ought to have a nice lesson in this fact.....I recall even you said people don't fully mature until age 26 ...I feel this depends on the person individually more so.... some are more mature than others in their youth. I consider my 15 yr old well beyond the maturity of most boys his age. 



> *That Girl said*: But I didn't really date in HS...then I went to college, graduated, got knocked up (oops!) , went back to college to get my teaching credential, and lived a little. I was single by choice for a long time. I learned to be truly self sufficient. I didn't need a man for anything, except companionship. That felt great!


 And see there is nothing wrong with how You handled your life -because you are proud of yourself in your acheivments in not needing a man, being self sufficient.

See, I could read something like this -and start feeling LESS in comparison to you and your story of self sufficientcy....as I was not, I had Jobs but never my own Place....I even lived in the back of a Camper in someone's back yard for a time and his Parents took me in. But I feel I was blessed I had a boyfriend who wanted to give me the world, he wanted to marry me... and frankly I loved being in that position, I had zero desire to go to college... I wanted to start my life right there - with my man hand in hand...

..Build the life I feel was taken from me -when my Mother left me... I wanted children, a family to call my own, a loving husband, the country home, screw the white picket fence, but give us some privacy so we didn't need any fences. 

I , too, am proud of how it played out for myself & my husband ....we worked very hard together to acheive all of our dreams.... struggled & saved, dug ditches together, layed roofs, built chimneys, put together trucks, layed cement with my knees up in it .....and was debt free by our last son.......

I do not look down on myself because I wasn't on my own before I married... I easily could go there if I start comparing my story against many women here -who are smarter, and more independent ..... but honesty, I am not envious of that... and thankfully my husband didn't view me as less of a catch because of these things. Never hampered his love- just as many men would not allow some sexual experienced past to interfere with what a couple "has found together". 

Shouldn't we all be happy with our stories... express it in it's fullness.... if there was something to learn from it...regrets ....awakenings .....share that too, so others can benefit from our wisdom- whatever resonates with them. Just be honest , that's all.  

Like Married Guy a few posts back..... he feels ....because of his struggle getting his wife to be more adventurous.... he says he would trade her virginity for her to have some College experiences before him.... Personally... I would think if she was Low drive to begin with (??) this would have done very little to up her adventrous spirit... but hey, that is just my personal opinion. Hormones have a hell of alot to do with a natural Lusting eroticism...and arousing the mind helps too. 

So there you have it - MEN regret marrying virgins. 

Personally one of my biggest fears is my silver ringed sons marrying a Low drive repressed virgin. Even though I feel it is beautiful and all.... I feel they should be laying some hands on each other, enjoying each other's sexually to some degree.... knowing they BOTH love orgasms, crave them...but yeah, they can wait to stick it in- if that is important to them -as it was to myself. 

All the trouble we had with my hymen, I could have broke some poor dudes pecker.. so I am pleased we delt with this craziness after we married...and getting pregnant before he got it in... well that is one story for the books. I kinda like it. You'll have to forgive me.


----------



## Thundarr

We're going to have to work on your shorthand Simply . I like your comments but they T a k e S o L o n g T o R e a d.

Or I could work on my B!tching about it. Na.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Thundarr said:


> We're going to have to work on your shorthand Simply . I like your comments but they T a k e S o L o n g T o R e a d.
> 
> Or I could work on my B!tching about it. Na.


I've been misunderstood one too many times on this forum.... and yeah, I could write a book someday... maybe my destiny. 

This is my learning playground.


----------



## anony2

SimplyAmorous said:


> I appreciate you feel it is not my intention....
> 
> Ok, well let me ask you this.... everyone here posting on this thread is speaking about their experiences, past experiences... speaking their hearts -and pretty openly too -which is great. :smthumbup: They are also vocal in speaking their *feelings* on how they look at their past.
> 
> * Should I be less forthcoming in how I feel when a direct question have been asked -- should I reign in MY feelings because it may make another feel less somehow...* It's just my experience.


Here? No, I am an adult and I do not base my feelings of myself on what other people's beliefs are, I am not telling you for my benefit, but for you to understand in case *a child* hears you say something like that when they have experienced what I and many others have because they might not understand that being molested/raped does not make them unpure. 

That is what my parents failed to understand and I would never want another human being to go through what I have. I not only had to overcome being molested and raped, but also the feelings of guilt and shame of what I was taught was unpure. Little ears do hear. 

It was the guilt and shame that caused me to act out because I was never allowed to feel the feelings that I needed to, to deal with being molested/raped. Instead, I learned to stuff all of my feelings down until one day while my husband and I were having sex and I was having pain and he asked me why I did not tell him. I explained to him that I associated all sex with pain....then I completely dissociated. 

The dissociation was so severe that I literally blacked out, I then woke up and I felt as if I was looking down the wrong end of a telescope, this is known as tunnel vision. My husband called a counselor and got me in as soon as possible. This was a very scary time for both of us. Thankfully, I got into a very good counselor who knew what she was doing. She made me aware that I had dealt with it in the best way I knew how.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

anony2 said:


> Here? No, I am an adult and I do not base my feelings of myself on what other people's beliefs are, I am not telling you for my benefit, but for you to understand in case *a child* hears you say something like that when they have experienced what I and many others have because they might not understand that being molested/raped does not make them unpure.


 I gave a long post in relation to what happened to you, I explained what happened to good friends of mine, their 2 daughters.... and still you feel this is what I was implying back to you....... Shaking my head how that even happened.  

I am a huge advocate for never stuffing feelings, no matter what they are.... I understand releasing all the pain & hurt to another who is accepting is what brings forth freedom and deliverance, the beginning of healing. I would have NEVER NEVER handled this like your parents did, had my children experienced it. 

This thread's original intention was never about the horrors of crimes against children but something completely consensual between adults. I see this as night & day, not even worthy to be breathed in the same sentence or context. 

Not sure what else to say, I think I need to leave this thread. Maybe I'll delete all my posts as well.


----------



## anony2

SimplyAmorous said:


> I gave a long post in relation to what happened to you, I explained what happened to good friends of mine, their 2 daughters.... and still you feel this is what I was implying back to you....... Shaking my head how that even happened.
> 
> I am a huge advocate for never stuffing feelings, no matter what they are.... I understand releasing all the pain & hurt to another who is accepting is what brings forth freedom and deliverance, the beginning of healing. I would have NEVER NEVER handled this like your parents did, had my children experienced it.
> 
> This thread's original intention was never about the horrors of crimes against children but something completely consensual between adults. I see this as night & day, not even worthy to be breathed in the same sentence or context.
> 
> Not sure what else to say, I think I need to leave this thread. Maybe I'll delete all my posts as well.


Please reread my post, *I said I DO NOT think that this is your intention*, but little ears (children) can misinterpret the whole PURE/UNPURE ideology.


----------



## Thundarr

SimplyAmorous said:


> I gave a long post in relation to what happened to you, I explained what happened to good friends of mine, their 2 daughters.... and still you feel this is what I was implying back to you....... Shaking my head how that even happened.
> 
> I am a huge advocate for never stuffing feelings, no matter what they are.... I understand releasing all the pain & hurt to another who is accepting is what brings forth freedom and deliverance, the beginning of healing. I would have NEVER NEVER handled this like your parents did, had my children experienced it.
> 
> This thread's original intention was never about the horrors of crimes against children but something completely consensual between adults. I see this as night & day, not even worthy to be breathed in the same sentence or context.
> 
> Not sure what else to say, I think I need to leave this thread. Maybe I'll delete all my posts as well.


Why delete posts? They were well thought out and were honest opinions. Just because we are more aware of why anony2 and anonim take such offense to some of the comments, that does not diminish the intent of what you have said in this thread. This has turned out to be one of the more insightful threads for me and I'm happy to have contributed with everyone.

I'm much more aware of how our individual history reflects our view on this subject now more than I was.


----------



## Maricha75

SimplyAmorous said:


> I gave a long post in relation to what happened to you, I explained what happened to good friends of mine, their 2 daughters.... and still you feel this is what I was implying back to you....... Shaking my head how that even happened.
> 
> I am a huge advocate for never stuffing feelings, no matter what they are.... I understand releasing all the pain & hurt to another who is accepting is what brings forth freedom and deliverance, the beginning of healing. I would have NEVER NEVER handled this like your parents did, had my children experienced it.
> 
> This thread's original intention was never about the horrors of crimes against children but something completely consensual between adults. I see this as night & day, not even worthy to be breathed in the same sentence or context.
> 
> Not sure what else to say, I think I need to leave this thread. Maybe I'll delete all my posts as well.



SA, in this case, anonym2 was saying to watch how you refer to this subject around children, or when you even THINK children are around. Kinda like how you would avoid speaking poorly about a child's other parent, in the event of a divorce. When you KNOW the kids are not around, vent or whatever. But when there is even the slightest possibility the child will hear, don't speak.

No, it isn't the same subject, obviously. But the sentiment is the same. Children, as we all know, may hear something stated and take it to mean something else entirely...and if a child hears this, they could very well think you mean THEY are "impure" because of it...when, in fact, that isn't what you are saying at all. 

Sorry if I didn't get that out as well as I could have. But i get what you meant, anonym2.


----------



## anony2

Maricha75 said:


> SA, in this case, anonym2 was saying to watch how you refer to this subject around children, or when you even THINK children are around. Kinda like how you would avoid speaking poorly about a child's other parent, in the event of a divorce. When you KNOW the kids are not around, vent or whatever. But when there is even the slightest possibility the child will hear, don't speak.
> 
> No, it isn't the same subject, obviously. But the sentiment is the same. Children, as we all know, may hear something stated and take it to mean something else entirely...and if a child hears this, they could very well think you mean THEY are "impure" because of it...when, in fact, that isn't what you are saying at all.
> 
> Sorry if I didn't get that out as well as I could have. But i get what you meant, anonym2.


Yes, you got exactly what I meant. Thank you for explaining it better than I did. :smthumbup:


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

SimplyAmorous said:


> I gave a long post in relation to what happened to you, I explained what happened to good friends of mine, their 2 daughters.... and still you feel this is what I was implying back to you....... Shaking my head how that even happened.
> 
> I am a huge advocate for never stuffing feelings, no matter what they are.... I understand releasing all the pain & hurt to another who is accepting is what brings forth freedom and deliverance, the beginning of healing. I would have NEVER NEVER handled this like your parents did, had my children experienced it.
> 
> This thread's original intention was never about the horrors of crimes against children but something completely consensual between adults. I see this as night & day, not even worthy to be breathed in the same sentence or context.
> 
> Not sure what else to say, I think I need to leave this thread. Maybe I'll delete all my posts as well.


Don't delete your posts. I can really relate to them as well as others.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I don't shame my kids....nor build shame in them by my views, we are very humble family in full view of our humanity and screw ups that befall all men .....

I am likely one of the most approachable darn mothers around... It was ME who opened up talking to our son about sneaking a little porn...a funny story there (I will spare you all) while I was on this forum reading some thread about a mother ready to ground her daughter for a year /completely up in arms over her opening up a webpage & shaming the sh** out of her....I offered a differnet view entirely, seemed only the men had an appreication for it -as usual. 

You know what my son said to me after our talk.... he thanked me for NOT shaming him, what a rare comment is that [email protected]#$%^& ... He told me this was easier than he could have imagined, I even got him laughing ....then he opened up wanting me to look up some porn star named Chrissy Moran who turned christian, told me he didn't like the fact he wants to do this...that I should put controls on ...I understood him completely.

I've had teens come to my house and share things with me they've never told their own parents - saying they can't...because why... the fear of being Judged.... Shamed, not accepted/ corrected. The fact this happens so often in my presence should speak volumes (if you dare believe what I speak) that I am not as I am being viewed... regardless of having a difference of opinion on some of these very delicate issues at hand.


----------



## CandieGirl

For the record, I would never qualify my abuse as a sexual experience....and neither should any of you! It's abuse, not sex. JMO.


----------



## CandieGirl

that_girl said:


> I guess I could have married a virgin too, had I married someone out of HS. Being "virginal" was important to me. Most HS boys don't have sex because they love someone, but because they want to "stink their junk in people" as SA nicely put it. lolol.
> 
> But I didn't really date in HS...then I went to college, graduated, got knocked up (oops!) , went back to college to get my teaching credential, and lived a little. I was single by choice for a long time. I learned to be truly self sufficient. I didn't need a man for anything, except companionship.  That felt great!
> 
> By the time I was ready at 31 to settle down, I didn't want a virgin. And honestly, at the time of dating, I was dating men in their mid 30s, early 40s, and not only was being a virgin unrealistic, it wasn't on my radar. *I did date a 41 year old man for almost 3 years who had only 2 partners before me. I don't know if it was because of his sexual hangup, or the fact that he had never had a long relationship, but...as nice and fun as he was, that was a waste of 3 years of my life. So many weird issues. And towards the end of our relationship, I found his porn stash. Yuck. I'm not a porn person, and this genre of porn was just....yuck. lol. * It is my opinion that people who are not in touch with their sexuality, virgin or not, will give me a weird sex life. No thanks.
> 
> My husband and my relationship is the only one I've had that actually was a mutually awesome situation. I never thought about the memories he could have with someone else, because they broke up for a reason. I have memories, but they are fading in time. Nothing compares to what H and I have...memories are just memories.


Yup, porn causes many problems for (some) men...*shrug*...am working through something similar with H...


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

CandieGirl said:


> For the record, I would never qualify my abuse as a sexual experience....and neither should any of you! It's abuse, not sex. JMO.


I full heartedly agree!


----------



## heartsbeating

SimplyAmorous said:


> And just like Created2 write, I would have wished I was his 1st. Not out of insecurity, but just out of the "specialness" of that.


I understand what you're saying...that him being a virgin was paramount to you.

To me, that wasn't something I considered. I also wasn't considering if he'd be my husband - that just wasn't on my radar. I knew who he was in character, what led him to that up until then, how he treated others, how he treated me and it became that we didn't want to be apart. 

We explored sensually before having intercourse; neither of us had experienced that before with another. We learned each others bodies in the sexiest ways. I am so glad we had that time. We were on the same page sexually and emotionally. Like many on this forum, we've had our issues though. Thankfully we have been getting back to being on that same page again. 

For me personally, the "special" is him and I together, it's his character, it's just him overall.


----------



## heartsbeating

SimplyAmorous said:


> Should I be less forthcoming in how I feel when a direct question have been asked -- should I reign in MY feelings because it may make another feel less somehow... It's just my experience.


I enjoy reading your thoughts, just as they are.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by Mr Blunt
> Is that why the only ones that answered by questions about sex were women? Are the men afraid of the hostility?
> 
> A brief summary of the answers to my number one (1) question is below:
> 
> Yes
> By CandiGirl





> Response by CandiGirl
> And this is the rest of what I wrote:
> 
> _Yes, however in these modern times, with my peers, in addition to my own age, it would be extremely rare. A nice idea, though, if you're 20 and being set up in an arranged marriage. *(Don't you half-quote me!)* _


_



CandiGirl
The purpose of my post was to ask my question reprinted below 




"Is that why the only ones that answered my questions about sex were women? Are the men afraid of the hostility?

Click to expand...

I was not trying to leave out the rest of your post for any reason other than to condense the answers to get to my question. 

Your statement of *“Don't you half-quote me!”* seems to indicate that you think that I was trying to misrepresent you. *My post was not about you or your full quote it was about men not answering the question*. My leaving out your full quote did not have anything to do with my post that you referred to. However, I do think that your full post was very realistic and made some good points for my other thread but not for this one.


If your interpretation of my other posts upset you then just be blunt and post a response that opposes my point with specifics. In your post above you make a strong remark (*Don't you half-quote me!)* about something that does not relate to my post. If you have an issue with me that you want to debate then lets here it on another thread._


----------



## CandieGirl

You're seriously telling me to be blunt (as if I'm not blunt enough as it is)? Why don't you just be more accurate instead of having me come across as agreeing with your original statement (whatever it was, at this point, after a gazillion replies, who can even remember)?


----------



## Mr Blunt

Here is my accurate reply to you.

My post was not about you or your full quote *it was about men not answering the question.* It is not about you

Stay on the subject and quit making my post about you!


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Quote of SimplyAmourus
> This thread's original intention was never about the horrors of crimes against children but something completely consensual between adults. I see this as night & day, not even worthy to be breathed in the same sentence or context.
> 
> Quote of Maricha75
> SA, in this case, anonym2 was saying to watch how you refer to this subject around children, or when you even THINK children are around.


Maricha did a very good job of condensing anonym2 excellent point. Howver, SA was spot on when she said



> This thread's original intention was never about the horrors of crimes against children but something completely consensual between adults.


I went back to the OP’s original comments and he said nothing about the horrors of crimes against children but specifically mention women that “.places a low value on sexual intimacy” See reprint of a section of the OP’s original thread below:





> Quote of falconKing
> This is why I say a persons sexual history matters.
> ________________________________________
> It amazes me how this doesn't really seem to bother people. Somebody's past says a lot about a person. *I don't want to be a with a woman who places a low value on sexual intimacy* or someone any man can have if they "get her drunk enough."



SA, I may not always agree with everything you say but you write very well and I hope that you do not delete any of your posts.


----------



## CandieGirl

Mr Blunt said:


> Here is my accurate reply to you.
> 
> My post was not about you or your full quote *it was about men not answering the question.* It is not about you
> 
> Stay on the subject and quit making my post about you!


Then quit misrepresenting folk by misquoting them. Or in your case, HALF quoting. Man, how many times???

I'll explain it again, if you really need me to.:rofl:


----------



## Caribbean Man

Just a little note to Simply Amourous

Whenever people come at you from every side,

Never Back Down.

*NEVER compromise your beliefs and values to please anybody.
PERIOD.*


----------



## WyshIknew

Originally Posted by CandieGirl 
Thanks, SW! It's nice to be understood...and I might add that sometimes, someone's LACK of sexual history matters as well.





southern wife said:


> :iagree: I'd rather have a man that knows the female body and how it works rather than someone that does not!


Sorry ladies that sounds a bit mean, I'm sure you didn't mean it that way.
Perhaps while you were exploring your bodies and the bodies of the (I assume)hot guys (not judging you you'll see why at end) there was someone like me who couldn't get laid for all the tea in china. I was ugly, shy and nerdy, always had my head buried in a book or studying. The more I tried the less it seemed likely to happen. I was desperate for sex up until my early to mid twenties but then I just gave up I 'realised' it wasn't going to happen. However from my twenties I started to fill out, I became less 'plain' still no oil painting but presentable.

My studying paid off, I am now employed at a good wage at an airport where I repair and maintain the nav-aids around the airfield, RADAR, DME, DVOR, HRDF, LOCALISER, GLIDE PATH etc.

I met my wife in my late twenties, we hit it off straight away. 
Now the thing is she had an early sex life somewhat like yours but it didn't worry me, it was (and is) her I love, not her past although her past is part of her. She did not mind my virginity at all and still says to this day that she finds it quite nice that she is the only person I have ever made love to. She calls it 'our thing'.
I can also assure you that I learnt very fast, very very fast:rofl:

I think I made up for lost time.

But from what you are saying you wouldn't have entertained a relationship with me because I was a virgin.

So you find it ok for you to be p1ssed at people who judge you for your sexual past (and FWIW I agree with you) but later on you seem able to judge other people for their lack of experience, double standards?

And BTW my wife assures me that (depite initial problems with me being a bit quick off the mark) I am the best lover she has ever had, multiple orgasms, adventuresness etc. She also thinks I'm hot, I did post a pic under my 'hair question' thread and a couple of the ladies said I wasn't bad at all so it just goes to show that some people are late bloomers.

Sorry didn't mean to go on such a rant, didn't mean to get all heavy on you.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Would't have bothered me if my husband was a virgin when I got with him, it's sex not rocket science and everyone's a learner at some point.


----------



## Thundarr

CandieGirl said:


> Then quit misrepresenting folk by misquoting them. Or in your case, HALF quoting. Man, how many times???
> 
> I'll explain it again, if you really need me to.:rofl:


Half quote? sure. Misrepresented? Nope. Seems like you're trying to pick a fight.


----------



## Thundarr

Mr Blunt said:


> Here is my accurate reply to you.
> 
> My post was not about you or your full quote *it was about men not answering the question.* It is not about you
> 
> Stay on the subject and quit making my post about you!


Your obvious intent was yet again spun to something completely unrelated.


----------



## anony2

Mr Blunt said:


> Maricha did a very good job of condensing anonym2 excellent point. Howver, SA was spot on when she said
> 
> 
> 
> I went back to the OP’s original comments and he said nothing about the horrors of crimes against children but specifically mention women that “.places a low value on sexual intimacy” See reprint of a section of the OP’s original thread below:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SA, I may not always agree with everything you say but you write very well and I hope that you do not delete any of your posts.


Mr. Blunt, I nor anyone else said this thread was about sexual abuse, but it also wasn't about sexual purity, which if I am not mistaken, was what SA/someone else brought into this thread. Thus why I was asking, if molestation and rape make someone unpure. Had she/someone else not brought that up, I wouldn't have either, but that is part of discussion; sometimes it leads us on all different roads. 

What is sad though, is that when I was explaining why it is important not to talk about sexual purity in front of a child (and even some adults as far as that goes) who would not understand that, SA claims that she is going to take her ball and go home. 

Part of being an adult is facing challenges even if those challenges make you uncomfortable, go against your religious beliefs, are totally opposite of our own, corrective, or dire warnings. 

If all of us did took our ball and went home when we are faced with challenges to our belief system, then we wouldn't learn any better and we would live in a very arrogant world because everyone would think that they already knew something that they could not know, because they haven't had the experiences of others. 

It really isn't worth getting all upset about and it isn't worth taking posts down for. I have said twice that I KNOW that was not her intentions and no one has accused her of shaming her children, so I do not even know where that is coming from. :scratchhead:

I wasn't offended by anyone's posts and I hope not to offend anyone by my posts. I do like to push the limits on discussions though because it expands the mind, mine and anyone else's who takes part. If we only discuss things that make us feel comfortable with and never face opposing views, we would be a boring bunch of people with huge ego's.


----------



## RandomDude

Caribbean Man said:


> *NEVER compromise your beliefs and values to please anybody.
> PERIOD.*


Reminds me of my culture's rule - to never bow, to never kneel. (And yes, we have problems with the Japanese - culture shock!) lol

Our hand on our hearts and a nod, that means a lot with just that. But to bend to the whims of our surroundings, that is not our way, that is the way of SLAVES

Ancient superstitions sure, but some traditions have to be upheld as it applies to the modern world.


----------



## anonim

Mr Blunt said:


> Quote of SimplyAmourus
> This thread's original intention was never about the horrors of crimes against children but something completely consensual between adults. I see this as night & day, not even worthy to be breathed in the same sentence or context.
> 
> Quote of Maricha75
> SA, in this case, anonym2 was saying to watch how you refer to this subject around children, or when you even THINK children are around.
> 
> *I agre with anony2 and Maricha on this but I would extend it to adults.
> 
> The Mental damage incurred via sexual abuse is not automatically repaired upon reaching the age of eighteen.
> 
> Some people that were sexually abused (child and adult alike) have their self esteem negatively impacted by members of society who say things like "she deserved it" or "she was asking for it (by wearing a mini skirt, hanging out with boys, etc) or that she (or he) is worth less because of what happened to them.
> 
> Qualifying a person as impure is such a thing.*
> 
> Maricha did a very good job of condensing anonym2 excellent point. Howver, SA was spot on when she said
> 
> This thread's original intention was never about the horrors of crimes against children but something completely consensual between adults.
> 
> 
> *The thing is they ARE related. One DOES often lead to the other. It is not unforeseeable or unreasonable that a discussion about one may lead to the other.*
> 
> I went back to the OP’s original comments and he said nothing about the horrors of crimes against children but specifically mention women that “.places a low value on sexual intimacy” See reprint of a section of the OP’s original thread below:
> 
> Quote of falconKing
> This is why I say a persons sexual history matters.
> ________________________________________
> It amazes me how this doesn't really seem to bother people. Somebody's past says a lot about a person. I don't want to be a with a woman who places a low value on sexual intimacy or someone any man can have if they "get her drunk enough."
> 
> *So many people make this judgement but so few try to see the causes. I wish more would try, because many people are happy to take advantage of people with low sexual intimacy and then turn and judge them after they have had their fill.*
> 
> SA, I may not always agree with everything you say but you write very well and I hope that you do not delete any of your posts.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Quote of Anonym2
> Mr. Blunt, I nor anyone else said this thread was about sexual abuse, but it also wasn't about sexual purity, which if I am not mistaken, was what SA/someone else brought into this thread. Thus why I was asking, if molestation and rape make someone unpure. Had she/someone else not brought that up, I wouldn't have either, but that is part of discussion; sometimes it leads us on all different roads.



Anonym2

I was the one that brought sexual purity into the thread not SA. Here below are my actual words reprinted from post 325



> Keeps themselves pure before marriage


You were raped and molested as a child and you are very sensitive about someone saying that you are sexually impure because of that rape.

My post did not have your situation in mind at all. There was no way that you could have stopped or KEPT yourself from the sexual violation against you. If my post still bothers you then I will take it down and will apologize to you for me not considering your situation; I was not even thinking about rape or molestation but more about what the OP stated in this thread’s original post. He said ("I don't want to be a with a woman who places a low value on sexual intimacy") *that woman is no where in the same universe as your situation*

I hope that you see that I was not trying to degrade you in any way. If you do not see that then I am ready to take my posts that offends you off this forum because my discussion on this matter is not as important as your point of view. I tried to convey that you were totally innocent by my post # 535 when I said to you



> So know and ACCEPT it within yourself that a terrible thing was done to you as child and you are TOTALLY INOCENT


I obviously failed to covey to you that it was not your fault, you are totally innocent, and that what was done to you was pure evil.

I can only apologize to you and hope that you accept my sincere regret.

Tell me which posts of mine you want me to take down. Your feelings are more important than me expressing my view about a certain subject.

Mr Blunt



PS
This situation with you being molested as a child is way too sensitive to be arguing about. How about we think about all of us calling for a truce on this? I know that you are a bit upset with Simply Amorous but she did say that you are “Spiritually pure” so how about we all forgive on this issue? We can go at each other on another issue but this one is just too sensitive and too close to the heart.

I am not SA’s spokes person but what I have read from her posts, she and you seem like good women so no use us holding any grudges. Let’s start over.


----------



## anony2

Mr Blunt said:


> PS
> This situation with you being molested as a child is way too sensitive to be arguing about. How about we think about all of us calling for a truce on this? I know that you are a bit upset with Simply Amorous but she did say that you are “Spiritually pure” so how about we all forgive on this issue? We can go at each other on another issue but this one is just too sensitive and too close to the heart.
> 
> I am not SA’s spokes person but what I have read from her posts, she and you seem like good women so no use us holding any grudges. Let’s start over.[/COLOR]


Mr Blunt, what I was saying, is there is no argument, just different perspectives.


----------



## FalconKing

> Quote of falconKing
> This is why I say a persons sexual history matters.
> ________________________________________
> It amazes me how this doesn't really seem to bother people. Somebody's past says a lot about a person. I don't want to be a with a woman who places a low value on sexual intimacy or someone any man can have if they "get her drunk enough."
> 
> *So many people make this judgement but so few try to see the causes. I wish more would try, because many people are happy to take advantage of people with low sexual intimacy and then turn and judge them after they have had their fill.*


Well some people engage in this kind of lifestyle, whether the cause is known or not. Some people have no issues with this and think there is no problem. So what am I supposed to do? Try to "save" her and be her white knight? Or be accepting of something that gives me issues in trust? How about I just avoid it. The* cause* as I believe I mentioned in my original post is that her father was abusive and controlling. But I can add more since if I don't write a discertation people will continue to derail. My EX-gf father beat up her mother, her and her brother. He was controlling and narcissistic. When she escaped by going to college she indulged herself in a high number of sexual partners, drugs and alcohol. She had drunken sex on the concrete at some party and got pregnant for some guy who was as unstable as she was. They did very horrible things throughout their marriage to each other. She had about 7 miscarriages. After her divorce she would seek men that weren't emotionally available. I tried to be that and she panicked. 

I'm almost as tired as SA. Some of you respond on this thread similar to as if someone accidentally bumps into you and you turning around and punching them in the mouth. I think she is frustrated because she is very open and some posters are criticizing things about her personally. Because they took it personally when nobody was even talking about them. Also when she tried to understand some of the other points of views that didnt seem to be good enough. Hence what I have felt for a while that some people are just arguing for the sake of it. Some of you guys really want to see blood. Or tear down the "good girl." Perhaps to relive some high school fantasy of beating up some prudish girl with glasses and no make up who you felt was judging you just by the way she looked at you. And as I said before....alot...many times...EVERYONE past matters no what they have done IMO. Guess what? That means causes too! But if you were sexually abused and now have had unhealthy relationships, but all I know about is the unhealthy relationships... Dont flip out on me if you dont tell me certain things about yourself. I cant understand what I do not know. Thats more of an issue with communication. Which is apparently something some of us still struggle with.

Men only wanting virgins, this thread being a subtle attack on women, people are hypocrites, sexual abuse, being offended because you had a high number of partners.....STOP THE MADNESS PEOPLE. This thread topic wasnt about any of that. Some of you have a sore spot for those issues and want to get some things off your chest. So are you trying to drag the thread over these land mines so you have a reason to detonate.


----------



## ladybird

Number is just a number to me. Just because you have had sex with a lot of people doesn't mean anything, in my opinion.

Past is past. Just like saying that if some one was beaten up by a partner that says a lot about them also. If they haven't been unfaithful in the relationship, then what is the big deal?? It shouldn't matter how many people she or he has slept with.. Now if the number is really high then yeah.

How many should one sleep with before marriage?? 

My husband hasn't asked me,That i can remember, if he has then i told him the number it is no big secret. It doesn't mean anything. 

I wasn't a wh*re and I wasn't a virgin.

I also cheated on an off and on boyfriend (off and on for 4 years) who would beat the crap out of me and fvck anything that walked!

I am going to test drive something before i buy it!


----------



## TiggyBlue

from what posts I have read from SA she seems to be talking about herself and what she wants not making a attack or judgment on others who don't have the same view as her


----------



## cpacan

ladybird said:


> Number is just a number to me. Just because you have had sex with a lot of people doesn't mean anything, in my opinion.
> 
> Past is past. Just like saying that if some one was beaten up by a partner that says a lot about them also. If they haven't been unfaithful in the relationship, then what is the big deal?? It shouldn't matter how many people she or he has slept with.. Now if the number is really high then yeah.
> 
> How many should one sleep with before marriage??
> 
> My husband hasn't asked me,That i can remember, if he has then i told him the number it is no big secret. It doesn't mean anything.
> 
> I wasn't a wh*re and I wasn't a virgin.
> 
> I also cheated on an off and on boyfriend (off and on for 4 years) who would beat the crap out of me and fvck anything that walked!
> 
> I am going to test drive something before i buy it!


I agree, I don't think that exact numbers can be stated either. But what's your point? You say you will need a test drive? So, if you think about replacing your existing partner, you will start to cheat on him, or...?


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

cpacan said:


> I agree, I don't think that exact numbers can be stated either. But what's your point? You say you will need a test drive? So, if you think about replacing your existing partner, you will start to cheat on him, or...?


She is not saying that. All she is not waiting for marriage to have sex with someone. Not that she is going to cheat. 

Just because she spoke in present tense doesn't mean that's what she's doing now. She test drove and she bought already.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> These are two different topics. *Masterbation is not related to abuse and neither one affects the definition of the other. Masterbation is normal and healthy.* I don't feel qualified to say much about abuse accept that I know it's devastating and traumatic.


:iagree:

In fact,even animals also masturbate.
Do they masturbate because of abuse? 
Or do they masturbate because of natural urges?
Animals level of consciousness, is lower than that of humans.
Animals do not possess cognitive functions ,so they do it whenever the NATURAL urges come. 
Humans can choose to do it whenever the NATURAL urges come, and can also choose their sexual preference.
They could choose to masturbate or have sexual relations with another human being.


----------



## cpacan

HopelesslyJaded said:


> She is not saying that. All she is not waiting for marriage to have sex with someone. Not that she is going to cheat.
> 
> Just because she spoke in present tense doesn't mean that's what she's doing now. She test drove and she bought already.


Thanks, I misread then 

This has been some thread to read through. Why is there all these black and white judgements from both sides - seems that the discussion has beed sidetracked a bit.

I don't understand why sexual past as an evaluation parameter is so bad?? As long as it is evaluated IN context, I think it is OK and very rational behaviour. 

For me; I would prefer a partner with a lot of sexual experience, who seems to be able to stay in a committed relationship for longer than a month. A disqualifier would be that she had cheated in previous relationships, and no, I wouldn't give a rats a$$ about any justification or post-rationalizations at all, given what I have learned in my present relationship.

But that's me, if anyone want to judge me differently, go ahead, their choice and I respect that. But the above is MY values and I will honour those myself.


----------



## Thundarr

FalconKing said:


> Well some people engage in this kind of lifestyle, whether the cause is known or not. Some people have no issues with this and think there is no problem. So what am I supposed to do? Try to "save" her and be her white knight? Or be accepting of something that gives me issues in trust? How about I just avoid it. The* cause* as I believe I mentioned in my original post is that her father was abusive and controlling. But I can add more since if I don't write a discertation people will continue to derail. My EX-gf father beat up her mother, her and her brother. He was controlling and narcissistic. When she escaped by going to college she indulged herself in a high number of sexual partners, drugs and alcohol. She had drunken sex on the concrete at some party and got pregnant for some guy who was as unstable as she was. They did very horrible things throughout their marriage to each other. She had about 7 miscarriages. After her divorce she would seek men that weren't emotionally available. I tried to be that and she panicked.
> 
> I'm almost as tired as SA. Some of you respond on this thread similar to as if someone accidentally bumps into you and you turning around and punching them in the mouth. I think she is frustrated because she is very open and some posters are criticizing things about her personally. Because they took it personally when nobody was even talking about them. Also when she tried to understand some of the other points of views that didnt seem to be good enough. Hence what I have felt for a while that some people are just arguing for the sake of it. Some of you guys really want to see blood. Or tear down the "good girl." Perhaps to relive some high school fantasy of beating up some prudish girl with glasses and no make up who you felt was judging you just by the way she looked at you. And as I said before....alot...many times...EVERYONE past matters no what they have done IMO. Guess what? That means causes too! But if you were sexually abused and now have had unhealthy relationships, but all I know about is the unhealthy relationships... Dont flip out on me if you dont tell me certain things about yourself. I cant understand what I do not know. Thats more of an issue with communication. Which is apparently something some of us still struggle with.
> 
> Men only wanting virgins, this thread being a subtle attack on women, people are hypocrites, sexual abuse, being offended because you had a high number of partners.....STOP THE MADNESS PEOPLE. This thread topic wasnt about any of that. Some of you have a sore spot for those issues and want to get some things off your chest. So are you trying to drag the thread over these land mines so you have a reason to detonate.


Applause for articulating the dynamics of this thread. You represented my thoughts accurately. We (me included) were starting to lose track of what this thread's core purpose is. The simple debate of why sexual history matters.


----------



## Caribbean Man

cpacan said:


> Thanks, I misread then
> 
> This has been some thread to read through. Why is there all these black and white judgements from both sides - seems that the discussion has beed sidetracked a bit.
> 
> *I don't understand why sexual past as an evaluation parameter is so bad?? As long as it is evaluated IN context, I think it is OK and very rational behaviour. *
> 
> For me; I would prefer a partner with a lot of sexual experience, who seems to be able to stay in a committed relationship for longer than a month. A disqualifier would be that she had cheated in previous relationships, and no, I wouldn't give a rats a$$ about any justification or post-rationalizations at all, given what I have learned in my present relationship.
> 
> But that's me, if anyone want to judge me differently, go ahead, their choice and I respect that. But the above is MY values and I will honour those myself.


:iagree:

.......and I judge your comment as being amongst one of the most rational one on the thread. Devoid of irrational ramblings , projections and posturing.
The fact is, a person's past will matter,and as you rightly said it is framed in contextuality.
Simply put,a person's past has an influence, positive or negative on their present and their future.

1]Their past could motivate them to change.
2]Unresolved issues in their past could sabotage their future.
3]Resolved issues from their past makes them stronger.
4]Their past is a barometer of their actual progress. In other words , that _was_ me, today _is_ me

It takes a certain level of maturity to understand this.
Maturity on the part of BOTH partners. If they are not on the same level, IT WILL NOT work.


----------



## Thundarr

ladybird said:


> Number is just a number to me. Just because you have had sex with a lot of people doesn't mean anything, in my opinion.
> 
> Past is past. Just like saying that if some one was beaten up by a partner that says a lot about them also. If they haven't been unfaithful in the relationship, then what is the big deal?? It shouldn't matter how many people she or he has slept with.. Now if the number is really high then yeah.
> 
> How many should one sleep with before marriage??
> 
> My husband hasn't asked me,That i can remember, if he has then i told him the number it is no big secret. It doesn't mean anything.
> 
> I wasn't a wh*re and I wasn't a virgin.
> 
> I also cheated on an off and on boyfriend (off and on for 4 years) who would beat the crap out of me and fvck anything that walked!
> 
> I am going to test drive something before i buy it!


You say the number doesn't matter but then you say if the number is really high then it matters. I also think someone being faithful is key. Probably more important than the number. 

I also think a history of domestic violence matters because because it often shapes how we view ourselves. My wife for example was in an abusive relationship before me and her self esteem was in the tank. People start to believe it sometimes when they're told it's all their fault. We did have a few growing pains because she didn't know to be treated and I'm not the "chest thumping get my beer" type of guy. I am the "treat each other with respect" kind of guy and I called her on it once or twice. Now it just makes her appreciate me more but her past did make a difference.

I suspect your prior disfunctional relationship shaped you in ways as well. Maybe even "beating the crap out of you" was seen as "that's how much he loves me". No matter how it affected you, these were issues from the past influenced your dynamics in a relationship.

I would not be surprised to find that we think similar on these issues but based on this post you may say I'm crazy for thinking that.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> You say the number doesn't matter but then you say if the number is really high then it matters. I also think someone being faithful is key. Probably more important than the number.
> 
> *I also think a history of domestic violence matters because because it often shapes how we view ourselves. My wife for example was in an abusive relationship before me and her self esteem was in the tank. People start to believe it sometimes when they're told it's all their fault. We did have a few growing pains because she didn't know to be treated and I'm not the "chest thumping get my beer" type of guy. *I am the "treat each other with respect" kind of guy and I called her on it once or twice. Now it just makes her appreciate me more but her past did make a difference.
> 
> I suspect your prior disfunctional relationship shaped you in ways as well. Maybe even "beating the crap out of you" was seen as "that's how much he loves me". No matter how it affected you, these were issues from the past influenced your dynamics in a relationship.
> 
> I would not be surprised to find that we think similar on these issues but based on this post you may say I'm crazy for thinking that.


My wife was almost raped by someone she thought was a friend , when she was in her teens.
She NEVER TRUSTED ANY MAN after that. She remained to herself.
When she told me that, then I understood her position on sex even more. Her past experiences shaped her convictions. Maybe they were extreme?
But it helped protect her from other men who she assumed would take advantage of her.
Everyone's experience is different.
Contextuality is important.

No woman should stay in any relationship where a man looks down on her because of her sexual past. It is up to the man to accept the past , accept her for who she is , and move on.

The male dynamic is quite different.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Caribbean Man said:


> Just a little note to Simply Amourous
> 
> Whenever people come at you from every side,
> 
> Never Back Down.
> 
> *NEVER compromise your beliefs and values to please anybody.
> PERIOD.*


CaribbeanMan...







again....It is getting a little old how many times I want to thank you, ha ha..... 

It is not that I am a compromiser of what I believe in at all ...
I am pretty stubborn minded ....I take the time to explore most of the issues I speak about....evaluating both sides ....I try not to be clueless -even if I haven't experienced something personally. 

Maybe it appears they are getting to me -if/when I show a little weariness on some threads... I try to be humble & listen closely to my critics...and the arguments they bring to counter mine... so if I have been wrong (it happens to us all)...I can make it right. 

And I also (call me foolish here).....always hold out some hope to find some "*common ground*" with those who are at complete odds with myself on some issues. I think when defenses start flying, if I keep hammering, I have lost hearers anyway. 

My saying I may go "delete" (which my computer is slow & frankly I was just too lazy to go though all these pages)..... it is more out of respect for not hurting some people with my words ....that is HOW they feel ...I'm not going to change that. I have not walked in their shoes, I don't know that KIND of hurt, so at the expense of me being misunderstod or even despised, I think I can handle it. 

But yeah...I still stand very firm in what I believe. And I doubt I'm going anywhere ... I may get knocked to the ground by some...may see some stars even...but I always always always get back up.


----------



## tryingtobebetter

Wow. What a thread.

Good to hear from you again*SA*. I am sure many of us value your eloquent comments.

Seems to me that the answer from the different contributors is that sometimes the past matters and sometimes it does not. Is that fair view? Depends on the people concerned and perhaps also the context?

My impression also is that it is an area where men and women often think and feel differently, perhaps because of our different roles (women know they are the mothers, men are not so secure about their paternity so worry more about the past?) and perhaps that makes a meeting of minds and hearts more difficult? and so misunderstandings and talking at cross-purposes can abound?

In any event, seems to me that as so often in life we need compassion, generosity, kindness and love. Otherwise we will be in trouble.

Sorry if it sounds like a sermon. My uncle was a priest and I think some of it may have rubbed off!


----------



## Deejo

FalconKing said:


> I love it how we are supposed to have found common ground but nobody really did. Just faked it til the cops left.


Oh no ... I'm still here. I'm always here.

I see everything ...


----------



## SimplyAmorous

WyshIknew said:


> Perhaps while you were exploring your bodies and the bodies of the (I assume)hot guys (not judging you you'll see why at end) there was someone like me who couldn't get laid for all the tea in china. I was ugly, shy and nerdy, always had my head buried in a book or studying. The more I tried the less it seemed likely to happen. I was desperate for sex up until my early to mid twenties but then I just gave up I 'realised' it wasn't going to happen. However from my twenties I started to fill out, I became less 'plain' still no oil painting but presentable.
> 
> My studying paid off, I am now employed at a good wage at an airport where I repair and maintain the nav-aids around the airfield, RADAR, DME, DVOR, HRDF, LOCALISER, GLIDE PATH etc.
> 
> I met my wife in my late twenties, we hit it off straight away.
> Now the thing is she had an early sex life somewhat like yours but it didn't worry me, it was (and is) her I love, not her past although her past is part of her. She did not mind my virginity at all and still says to this day that she finds it quite nice that she is the only person I have ever made love to. She calls it 'our thing'.
> I can also assure you that I learnt very fast, very very fast:rofl:
> 
> I think I made up for lost time.
> 
> But from what you are saying you wouldn't have entertained a relationship with me because I was a virgin.
> 
> So you find it ok for you to be p1ssed at people who judge you for your sexual past (and FWIW I agree with you) but later on you seem able to judge other people for their lack of experience, double standards?
> 
> And BTW my wife assures me that (depite initial problems with me being a bit quick off the mark) I am the best lover she has ever had, multiple orgasms, adventuresness etc. She also thinks I'm hot, I did post a pic under my 'hair question' thread and a couple of the ladies said I wasn't bad at all so it just goes to show that some people are late bloomers.
> 
> Sorry didn't mean to go on such a rant, didn't mean to get all heavy on you.


Freaking LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE your story WyshIKnew !! Nice to hear from a Virgin male where the woman didn't judge him -like your wonderful wife. 

She got the whole damn package in my eyes. I feel alot of those Geeks ARE the treasures , but in our youth we completely overlook them... My friends have told my husband he gets better with age....Personally, I loved the men who were intelligent -into books over the football players any day. But yeah...I'm a little weird. 

My husband , another virgin male , who didn't have intercourse till he was 25 yrs old... let me tell you, he is a MASTER at holding out for me, even from the very beginning he managed this, (once he got it IN)...we never had any sexual troubles at all... and I am not the easiest woman to please by a long shot... When I don't like something, I make a stink about it, I am not very patient either. And he pleased me just FIIINNNNEEEEE.

IT IS INSTINCT......I remember thinking back then (even though we didn't talk about sex at all :slap... I'd tell him what an amazing lover he was & ask how the hell he just KNEW where to touch me ...I just thought ... "damn our bodies are so in sinc"- because seriously 95% of the time we came together...from early on..and still do. He prefers it this way. I near rendered it something "spiritual" between us, but yeah... like any man he just learned how to effectively hold his FIRE till I got mine. 

Never a selfish lover... I wouldn't even know what that experience is like.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Deejo said:


> Oh no ... I'm still here. I'm always here.
> 
> *I see everything ..*.


My goodness,
Sorry [ ray: ] I misbehaved!:rofl:


----------



## Thundarr

SimplyAmorous said:


> Personally, I loved the men who were intelligent -into books over the football players any day. But yeah...I'm a little weird.


 Let's not get personal now. Football players are capable of thought too


----------



## SimplyAmorous

anony2 said:


> Mr. Blunt, I nor anyone else said this thread was about sexual abuse, but it also wasn't about sexual purity, which if I am not mistaken, was what SA/someone else brought into this thread.


1st of all, I would like to take a moment and point something out here.... I did not open up the Purity dialoge here --go back and read my opening posts..... What happened is this....I shared* MY story *(as equally as all the other women has done).....and I was referred to as a hypocrite-with all kinds of opinions on what PURITY really is by THE OTHER WOMEN, not myself. So in this.... I want to call "foul".

And you are correct, it NEVER was about that issue, others made it so.


----------



## Created2Write

that_girl said:


> Created2write, I love that. It's good to stand your ground. It does hurt to feel used. I felt like that for most of my 20s. My mom put religious garbage on me, and guilt, and shame....about sex. I had to shake that and figure out what *I* believed. And it wasn't what she believed. Funny thing about my mom, she won't tell me ANYTHING about her past, but her sisters have told me...even my dad told me some things. It's amazing how hypocritical she is...telling me that sex is dirty and should be waited until marriage...while she was sleeping with people left and right before marriage. I guess SHE learned her lesson and just thought I should learn from her 'mistakes' as well. Problem was, she didn't tell me her past...she just told me what I could and couldn't do. It was very confusing. I had no one to talk to about sex. No one to ask about sex. If I just brought it up, hypothetically, I would be shamed into silence. Not cool. I was a good kid. I was a smart woman. I didn't sleep with anyone I didn't choose to sleep with, and I dont' regret any of my lovers. I do regret some make-out sessions though :rofl: EW! But, I am very open about sex with my 13 year old. I want her to know that I am human. She is human...she will have needs. I hope she talks to me before she goes to her friends. eesh.
> 
> I dated a LOT that year when I decided I was set out to find my match. lol It was like a bad TV movie. ANYWAY, I didn't sleep with any of the guys I dated...tried to weed out the lunatics. At my age, there are a lot of lunatics...I guess at any age really...but i wasn't going to chance it.
> 
> However, when I met my husband, that was IT. I wanted him...in the worst way.  Honestly, I told my friend about a month before H and I started dating, "I am going to marry that man...I know something is going to happen with him...and it's going to be quick, whatever it is." And it was...quick. Not the sex :rofl: But our whirlwind relationship.


Although I'm a spiritual person, one of the main things that I feel the church is horrible at discussing is sex. There's so much concern about lust and sexual arousal, etc. that, when I was a teenager, I heard a lot of "Don't have sex until marriage", "Don't lust", etc. And the only thing they said to do to abstain from temptation was to not be alone with a member of the opposite sex. Which, as a thirteen or fourteen year old, I thought was good advice. But for a young adult, potentially trying to find a husband or wife, double dates and group dates are just not conducive to that kind of relationship. They never talked about masturbation with us girls, and only told us to dress modestly. 

Now that I'm an adult and married, I can say that the majority of things they told us were positively unhelpful. My husband was in the same youth group with me, and he said the same thing. There were a lot of "don'ts", and it made sex seem like something gross. The church really needs to change their thinking when it comes to sex. And not necessarily their values, but the way they approach sex. Sexual urges and thoughts are _biologically normal_, not sinful. Moreover, I believe they were put their by God to help us find a lifelong partner, and the Bible even says this. Yet, as teens, we heard none of it. It's like we were expected to wait until we were in premarital counciling before we could allow those urges to bubble to the surface. UGH. 

Anyway, sex is one of my biggest frustrations with the church. My husband and I have decided that, when it comes to sex discussions with our children, we're going to give them the answers to the questions we were too afraid to ask when we were teens.


----------



## Created2Write

anony2 said:


> But with that ideology comes the implication that a man/woman who is not a virgin cannot achieve that "specialness" of sex with their partner since they aren't the first.
> 
> This is what many of us have been attempting to say all along: It* doesn't matter* if CM has had MANY sexual partners, he achieved the "specialness" of sex with his wife...NOT because she was a virgin, but because they worked together to make it work.
> 
> So the ideology of 'purity' is really an illusion.


I think they are two different kind of "specialness". My husband was my first and only sexual partner, so from my side of the relationship our first time was the most amazing experience I'd ever had, and still is. Since I was not his first, he couldn't claim that kind of experience with me. However, it was the first sexual relationship that didn't end after a few months, and now we're married, so from his perspective it's a different kind of special. 

And, no, relationships where one or both individuals have had more than one partner, it's physically impossible for them to share _that_ specialness. However, that doesn't mean that their sexual relationship isn't or can't be a special one. It just means that they aren't mutually sharing their virginity's with one another. So my husband didn't share his virginity with me...it hasn't negatively impacted our relationship in any way.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Very good point C2W. I don't want my daughter (13) to be promiscuous but I do want her to have a healthy view of sexuality. It's a difficult line to walk.

I don't think sexual history would matter much to me unless my partner paid for or was paid for sex. A confused, attention seeking college student w low self esteem and a desire to fit in might make a lot of poor choices and have many one-night stands or sex they don't even remember. It would be their current sexual practices and beliefs (and sexual health!) that would matter most to me. 

I've had a discreet number of partners - enough to know what I like and to not be surprised by the wide range of physical differences - while not so many I'd be ashamed for anyone to know. My ExH had many partners while my current BF, while I've never asked, based on his dating history I would say not as many, but he's the best lover. Maybe because he cherishes the act more?

I'm very happy to say I'm open with my daughter and she knows way more than I did at 13. I had asked my Mom what sexual intercourse was, thinking it was a course you took like sex ed - her answer was I'd learn all I needed to know in 10th grade biology!

Yet I think she's less interested in boys and sex. Any time she's curious about something I answer as honestly as I can; latest question was "What are blue balls?" and I explained which led to a great discussion about being a "tease", how that is perceived by both genders, how it is unkind and how girls often do it to test their feminine power AND how it can put a girl in a really bad position (date rape). Being open makes it less taboo. I read in Europe the average age teens lose their virginity is much higher than the US and the theory is their openness makes them less curious.


----------



## Caribbean Man

EnjoliWoman said:


> Very good point C2W. * I don't want my daughter (13) to be promiscuous but I do want her to have a healthy view of sexuality. It's a difficult line to walk.*
> 
> I don't think sexual history would matter much to me unless my partner paid for or was paid for sex. A confused, attention seeking college student w low self esteem and a desire to fit in might make a lot of poor choices and have many one-night stands or sex they don't even remember. It would be their current sexual practices and beliefs (and sexual health!) that would matter most to me.
> 
> I've had a discreet number of partners - enough to know what I like and to not be surprised by the wide range of physical differences - while not so many I'd be ashamed for anyone to know. My ExH had many partners while my current BF, while I've never asked, based on his dating history I would say not as many, but he's the best lover. Maybe because he cherishes the act more?
> 
> I'm very happy to say I'm open with my daughter and she knows way more than I did at 13. I had asked my Mom what sexual intercourse was, thinking it was a course you took like sex ed - her answer was I'd learn all I needed to know in 10th grade biology!
> 
> Yet I think she's less interested in boys and sex. Any time she's curious about something I answer as honestly as I can; latest question was "What are blue balls?" and I explained which led to a great discussion about being a "tease", how that is perceived by both genders, how it is unkind and how girls often do it to test their feminine power AND how it can put a girl in a really bad position (date rape). Being open makes it less taboo.* I read in Europe the average age teens lose their virginity is much higher than the US and the theory is their openness makes them less curious.*


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I like your perspective.
It is indeed a delicate balancing act, knowing all the pitfalls.
I will research the European teens part. Sounds interesting.


----------



## Thundarr

EnjoliWoman said:


> Very good point C2W. I don't want my daughter (13) to be promiscuous but I do want her to have a healthy view of sexuality. It's a difficult line to walk.
> 
> I don't think sexual history would matter much to me unless my partner paid for or was paid for sex. A confused, attention seeking college student w low self esteem and a desire to fit in might make a lot of poor choices and have many one-night stands or sex they don't even remember. It would be their current sexual practices and beliefs (and sexual health!) that would matter most to me.
> 
> I've had a discreet number of partners - enough to know what I like and to not be surprised by the wide range of physical differences - while not so many I'd be ashamed for anyone to know. My ExH had many partners while my current BF, while I've never asked, based on his dating history I would say not as many, but he's the best lover. Maybe because he cherishes the act more?
> 
> I'm very happy to say I'm open with my daughter and she knows way more than I did at 13. I had asked my Mom what sexual intercourse was, thinking it was a course you took like sex ed - her answer was I'd learn all I needed to know in 10th grade biology!
> 
> Yet I think she's less interested in boys and sex. Any time she's curious about something I answer as honestly as I can; latest question was "What are blue balls?" and I explained which led to a great discussion about being a "tease", how that is perceived by both genders, how it is unkind and how girls often do it to test their feminine power AND how it can put a girl in a really bad position (date rape). Being open makes it less taboo. I read in Europe the average age teens lose their virginity is much higher than the US and the theory is their openness makes them less curious.


I think that's a great way to teach. First they are not as naive but also sex can't sound as good as it is coming from parents. I did the same and maybe it made my kids uncomfortable to realize I actually knew what they were thinking. Either way, three boys 24, 23, and 21 and so far so good. (Knock on wood).


----------



## Created2Write

EnjoliWoman said:


> Very good point C2W. I don't want my daughter (13) to be promiscuous but I do want her to have a healthy view of sexuality. It's a difficult line to walk.
> 
> I don't think sexual history would matter much to me unless my partner paid for or was paid for sex. A confused, attention seeking college student w low self esteem and a desire to fit in might make a lot of poor choices and have many one-night stands or sex they don't even remember. It would be their current sexual practices and beliefs (and sexual health!) that would matter most to me.
> 
> I've had a discreet number of partners - enough to know what I like and to not be surprised by the wide range of physical differences - while not so many I'd be ashamed for anyone to know. My ExH had many partners while my current BF, while I've never asked, based on his dating history I would say not as many, but he's the best lover. Maybe because he cherishes the act more?
> 
> I'm very happy to say I'm open with my daughter and she knows way more than I did at 13. I had asked my Mom what sexual intercourse was, thinking it was a course you took like sex ed - her answer was I'd learn all I needed to know in 10th grade biology!
> 
> Yet I think she's less interested in boys and sex. Any time she's curious about something I answer as honestly as I can; latest question was "What are blue balls?" and I explained which led to a great discussion about being a "tease", how that is perceived by both genders, how it is unkind and how girls often do it to test their feminine power AND how it can put a girl in a really bad position (date rape). Being open makes it less taboo. I read in Europe the average age teens lose their virginity is much higher than the US and the theory is their openness makes them less curious.


My moms approach to the sex talk was, "Sex outside of marriage is a sin according to God and the Bible". She did tell us what it was, at a time when my brother and I didn't really want to know about it. She told me a lot about her sexual experiences, and she was incredibly promiscuous. Her and my dad have a great relationship, but she has a lot of regrets. However, her way of explaining it was really more with the use of fear, than anything else. And then the church talked about it with guilt, and somehow we were supposed to sex as a beautiful thing within marriage? Talk about confusion. 

My mom still, to this day, doesn't know that my husband and I didn't wait until marriage. And she likely never will. Not because I'm filled with guilt or shame, but because she would flip out. My twenty-one year old brother can have sex with a prostitute in Hong Kong while he's deployed and not be chastised, but I can't even tell my mother that my first sexual experience was with the man I'm now married too. But that's another issue.  

When I discuss this with my children, I'm going to tell them how great it was that I only had their father as my sexual experience, and leave it to positive things. He has said that he's going to stress how much he wishes I had been his first, and to be smart about who they share their sexual experience(s) with.


----------



## anony2

Created2Write said:


> I think they are two different kind of "specialness". My husband was my first and only sexual partner, so from my side of the relationship our first time was the most amazing experience I'd ever had, and still is. Since I was not his first, he couldn't claim that kind of experience with me. However, it was the first sexual relationship that didn't end after a few months, and now we're married, so from his perspective it's a different kind of special.
> 
> And, no, relationships where one or both individuals have had more than one partner, it's physically impossible for them to share _that_ specialness. However, that doesn't mean that their sexual relationship isn't or can't be a special one. It just means that they aren't mutually sharing their virginity's with one another. So my husband didn't share his virginity with me...it hasn't negatively impacted our relationship in any way.


Who is to say really about someone else's specialness? Meaning, you do not know what my specialness is with my husband and I do not know what it is with yours, we might be feeling the same feeling or it might be something totally different, neither is less than the other, it is great we both feel that specialness with our husbands.  

Honestly, this is the first time I have ever felt as if I actually had a 'sex life'. My husband has opened gates, tore down walls, helped me heal from rape/child molestation and now I am multi-orgasmic. Before, I viewed every sexual experience as if it was predatory and because of that, I was repressed so much so that sex was actually physically painful for me. 

So even though I was not a virgin when we got married, the specialness that we have together is above and beyond anything I could have asked for. Of course, he knew this before we got married and I did not hide anything about my life from him, nor would I. He also knew about me being molested/raped before we got married also. I felt that being honest about it, was more important than my feelings about it.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Created2Write said:


> Although I'm a spiritual person, one of the main things that I feel the church is horrible at discussing is sex. There's so much concern about lust and sexual arousal, etc. that, when I was a teenager, I heard a lot of "Don't have sex until marriage", "Don't lust", etc. And the only thing they said to do to abstain from temptation was to not be alone with a member of the opposite sex. Which, as a thirteen or fourteen year old, I thought was good advice. But for a young adult, potentially trying to find a husband or wife, double dates and group dates are just not conducive to that kind of relationship. They never talked about masturbation with us girls, and only told us to dress modestly.
> 
> Now that I'm an adult and married, I can say that the majority of things they told us were positively unhelpful. My husband was in the same youth group with me, and he said the same thing. There were a lot of "don'ts", and it made sex seem like something gross. The church really needs to change their thinking when it comes to sex. And not necessarily their values, but the way they approach sex. Sexual urges and thoughts are _biologically normal_, not sinful. Moreover, I believe they were put their by God to help us find a lifelong partner, and the Bible even says this. Yet, as teens, we heard none of it. It's like we were expected to wait until we were in premarital counciling before we could allow those urges to bubble to the surface. UGH.
> 
> Anyway, sex is one of my biggest frustrations with the church. My husband and I have decided that, when it comes to sex discussions with our children, we're going to give them the answers to the questions we were too afraid to ask when we were teens.


How utterly True every word. :iagree::iagree::iagree:

I took upon studying where the Church got it's dirty views on sex.... alot of this started with St Augustine (354-430) - Considered the "Doctor of the Church" & his " The Confessions" equating even sex IN marraige as "unclean" -except for Procreation. If anyones influential writings have contributed to a "*sex is dirty*" attitude in Christianity... it started with HIM . 

Many blame his OBSESSION with women & wild sexual excapades of his youth-even having a mistress & child out of wedlock , before conversion - also his studying with the Manichees and their belief that the body/flesh was the cause of all evil . 

Obviously we know he went TOO FAR with these things, but I wonder if anyone in the Catholic Church, any Popes have denounced these specific teachings ??? Just as they have denounced the Idea of "LIMBO" in the last 25 yrs (I forget when) -another example of the craziness that comes from the "Original Sin Doctrine" -- that "debate" won by this same St Augustine, over his rival Pelaguis. 

A little history...

 The Sex Animal Named Augustine 

Here is recent book I bought, I think you would identify with the quote on the back cover written by it's (christian) Author >>>
" I was taught 2 contradictory things about sex. First, it is dirty, Second, I should save it for the one I love. No clearer statement could be made about the dichotomy presented to todays' Christians". 
 The Unauthorized Guide to Sex and Church: Books


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

From anony's post "I felt that being honest about it, was more important than my feelings about it. "

I think when it comes down to it, if when people were dating and these questions come up if they would just be open and honest about their sexual past, I think even the people with the most strict rules are willing to bend. If you have had alot of sexual partners just tell it. You don't have to be remoreseful or bragging about it. Just matter of fact like. Usually if your having that conversation, both parties know they are interested in each other. This is the, "I like you and am interested to know how you came to be" stage. Personally, cheating in past relationships whether married or just dating holds way more weight than them having casual sex. The main concern there would be STD's and you can always get that checked out too.

IMO Honesty goes a long way. A LONG WAY.


----------



## Thundarr

HopelesslyJaded said:


> From anony's post "I felt that being honest about it, was more important than my feelings about it. "
> 
> I think when it comes down to it, if when people were dating and these questions come up if they would just be open and honest about their sexual past, I think even the people with the most strict rules are willing to bend. If you have had alot of sexual partners just tell it. You don't have to be remoreseful or bragging about it. Just matter of fact like. Usually if your having that conversation, both parties know they are interested in each other. This is the, "I like you and am interested to know how you came to be" stage. Personally, cheating in past relationships whether married or just dating holds way more weight than them having casual sex. The main concern there would be STD's and you can always get that checked out too.
> 
> IMO Honesty goes a long way. A LONG WAY.


:iagree: I agree 100% with everything about this comment. I think it's getting to know each other and in context with previous post about what's special. This is one of the things I find special.


----------



## Created2Write

anony2 said:


> Who is to say really about someone else's specialness? Meaning, you do not know what my specialness is with my husband and I do not know what it is with yours, we might be feeling the same feeling or it might be something totally different, neither is less than the other, it is great we both feel that specialness with our husbands.


Okay...I still think there is a difference between the two "specials", but it's just my opinion. Even on our honeymoon when we had sex it was an altogether different experience than any of the other sexual escapades we had been in with each other before marriage. Something about being married made it absolutely....I can't even think of a word to describe it....sacred, I suppose. Truthful. Honest. We had said we would get married, and we actually had. It was the first time for both of us that the person we were with followed through on their promises. At any rate, the sex then was so much more special than when we were engaged. I guess that's why, in my mind, there are many different kinds of "specialness" within different sexual relationships. 



> Honestly, this is the first time I have ever felt as if I actually had a 'sex life'. My husband has opened gates, tore down walls, helped me heal from rape/child molestation and now I am multi-orgasmic. Before, I viewed every sexual experience as if it was predatory and because of that, I was repressed so much so that sex was actually physically painful for me.
> 
> So even though I was not a virgin when we got married, the specialness that we have together is above and beyond anything I could have asked for. Of course, he knew this before we got married and I did not hide anything about my life from him, nor would I. He also knew about me being molested/raped before we got married also. I felt that being honest about it, was more important than my feelings about it.


I'm glad you have such a good husband.


----------



## Created2Write

SimplyAmorous said:


> How utterly True every word. :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> I took upon studying where the Church got it's dirty views on sex.... alot of this started with St Augustine (354-430) - Considered the "Doctor of the Church" & his " The Confessions" equating even sex IN marraige as "unclean" -except for Procreation. If anyones influential writings have contributed to a "*sex is dirty*" attitude in Christianity... it started with HIM .
> 
> Many blame his OBSESSION with women & wild sexual excapades of his youth-even having a mistress & child out of wedlock , before conversion - also his studying with the Manichees and their belief that the body/flesh was the cause of all evil .
> 
> Obviously we know he went TOO FAR with these things, but I wonder if anyone in the Catholic Church, any Popes have denounced these specific teachings ??? Just as they have denounced the Idea of "LIMBO" in the last 25 yrs (I forget when) -another example of the craziness that comes from the "Original Sin Doctrine" -- that "debate" won by this same St Augustine, over his rival Pelaguis.
> 
> A little history...
> 
> The Sex Animal Named Augustine
> 
> Here is recent book I bought, I think you would identify with the quote on the back cover written by it's (christian) Author >>>
> " I was taught 2 contradictory things about sex. First, it is dirty, Second, I should save it for the one I love. No clearer statement could be made about the dichotomy presented to todays' Christians".
> The Unauthorized Guide to Sex and Church: Books


I think it's interesting, and also sad, that the modern church is sill influenced by a teaching so contradictory to what the Bible actually says. 

Thanks for doing the research SA.


----------



## anony2

Created2Write said:


> Okay...I still think there is a difference between the two "specials", but it's just my opinion. Even on our honeymoon when we had sex it was an altogether different experience than any of the other sexual escapades we had been in with each other before marriage. Something about being married made it absolutely....I can't even think of a word to describe it....sacred, I suppose. Truthful. Honest. We had said we would get married, and we actually had. It was the first time for both of us that the person we were with followed through on their promises. At any rate, the sex then was so much more special than when we were engaged. I guess that's why, in my mind, there are many different kinds of "specialness" within different sexual relationships.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad you have such a good husband.


Awe, thank you, so am I! I do understand what you mean by sex being sacred. Before, sex seemed as if it was "wham bam, thank you mam" sex, and now it is cosmic. It is more about intimacy than it is about the sexual act. Funny enough, it was me that was blocking that intimacy that my husband was giving me and I actually had no clue that was what I was doing. 

Maybe each person has something different to learn in this life or as my grandma used to say "we have our own rows to hoe". 
So, maybe my lesson to learn was accepting love/intimacy? I know through that acceptance, I finally felt free. :smthumbup:


----------



## Created2Write

anony2 said:


> Awe, thank you, so am I! I do understand what you mean by sex being sacred. Before, sex seemed as if it was "wham bam, thank you mam" sex, and now it is cosmic. It is more about intimacy than it is about the sexual act. Funny enough, it was me that was blocking that intimacy that my husband was giving me and I actually had no clue that was what I was doing.
> 
> Maybe each person has something different to learn in this life or as my grandma used to say "we have our own rows to hoe".
> So, maybe my lesson to learn was accepting love/intimacy? I know through that acceptance, I finally felt free. :smthumbup:


That is so awesome. I love hearing success stories like this. You have such a wonderful gift to offer other women who have been sexually abused; hope that there truly is happiness and life after such horrific experiences. :smthumbup:


----------



## SimplyAmorous

HopelesslyJaded said:


> From anony's post "I felt that being honest about it, was more important than my feelings about it. "
> 
> I think when it comes down to it, if when people were dating and these questions come up if they would just be open and honest about their sexual past, I think even the people with the most strict rules are willing to bend. If you have had alot of sexual partners just tell it.


:iagree:

Even with our oldest...Yes, his







's desire is for a woman who has waited (as he is).... but it is NOT a deal breaker for him, a woman's past means LESS than -where she IS when they meet up & find that chemisty with each other, sharing the same hopes, dreams... her values & beliefs THEN. 

I will never forget this one thread I ran into shorty after I arrived at TAM....where the man upfront told his GF he would dump her if she was not a virgin....well -she loved him ....and LIED......held it in for YEARS...only for him to find out later... I accaully felt BAD for this woman.... the position he put her in ...and responded to his emotions on how SHE WOULD HAVE FELT...as they had a good marraige, she was a fine wife...but here he was -ready to throw it all away...over this... erase their past & throw her to the curb. I understand she LIED, it was wrong, but I couldn't help but FEEL for her terribly....so I took up her cause to appeal to him. 

Thread here >> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ifes-sexual-past-lies-about-being-virgin.html I took the time to talk to my son about that very unfortunate situation -expressing how some very strict Christian males may put some women in....as this one backed her into a corner... it resonated with him -as he would never want a woman to fear being fully open & honest with him...how utterly important this IS....I know he saw another side to humanity that day.... we are not all perfect, we can find ourselves doing things we shouldn't FOR LOVE.... & sometimes in our youth, even lying to hold on to someone we couldn't face loosing. Some of us need to lower those strict thresholds & be more understanding of another, approachable to being...well.... "human". 

None of us are perfect. Sometimes forgiveness* IS *the answer. That Husband listened to my words on that thread, trying to express where she was coming from ....In his response to my post....he said...." I've been able to see this whole situation with a much better perspective. I will strive to be a "true man and better husband" by recognizing my owe frailties and by being less selfish, more understanding and more forgiving." 

I think I helped a marraige that day!!


----------



## tryingtobebetter

SimplyAmorous said:


> How utterly True every word. :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> I took upon studying where the Church got it's dirty views on sex.... alot of this started with St Augustine (354-430) - Considered the "Doctor of the Church" & his " The Confessions" equating even sex IN marraige as "unclean" -except for Procreation. If anyones influential writings have contributed to a "*sex is dirty*" attitude in Christianity... it started with HIM .
> 
> Many blame his OBSESSION with women & wild sexual excapades of his youth-even having a mistress & child out of wedlock , before conversion - also his studying with the Manichees and their belief that the body/flesh was the cause of all evil .
> 
> Obviously we know he went TOO FAR with these things, but I wonder if anyone in the Catholic Church, any Popes have denounced these specific teachings ??? Just as they have denounced the Idea of "LIMBO" in the last 25 yrs (I forget when) -another example of the craziness that comes from the "Original Sin Doctrine" -- that "debate" won by this same St Augustine, over his rival Pelaguis.
> 
> A little history...
> 
> The Sex Animal Named Augustine
> 
> Here is recent book I bought, I think you would identify with the quote on the back cover written by it's (christian) Author >>>
> " I was taught 2 contradictory things about sex. First, it is dirty, Second, I should save it for the one I love. No clearer statement could be made about the dichotomy presented to todays' Christians".
> The Unauthorized Guide to Sex and Church: Books


Augustine was a great man (Confessions is a great book) but he did have a very unfortunate tendency towards self-hatred. I think medieval Christianity may have been healthier in its attitudes. Certainly Aquinas, the greatest medieval theologian, was more concerned to stress what was good about humans, stressed virtues, spent less time beating up about faults/sins. I think that the Reformation saw a revival of Augustine's influence (Luther was an Augustinian) and the Catholic church was influenced in the same direction (Jansenists). The Jansenists (think Catholic Calvinists) did much to inculcate a way of thinking which stressed sin, guilt etc.

Do not know what modern Popes have said though I have heard people say that JPII and Benedict have both written good stuff (must read it some time).


----------



## Caribbean Man

HopelesslyJaded said:


> From anony's post "I felt that being honest about it, was more important than my feelings about it. "
> 
> *I think when it comes down to it, if when people were dating and these questions come up if they would just be open and honest about their sexual past, I think even the people with the most strict rules are willing to bend.* If you have had alot of sexual partners just tell it. You don't have to be remoreseful or bragging about it. Just matter of fact like. Usually if your having that conversation, both parties know they are interested in each other. This is the, "I like you and am interested to know how you came to be" stage. Personally, cheating in past relationships whether married or just dating holds way more weight than them having casual sex. The main concern there would be STD's and you can always get that checked out too.
> 
> *IMO Honesty goes a long way. A LONG WAY.*


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

The fact is that in the initial stages of attraction,so much chemistry flows that most people are willing to accept whatever comes wrapped inside that package of what they perceive to be the most beautiful person in the universe. 

Lying and Deception destroys that feeling.


----------



## ladybird

cpacan said:


> I agree, I don't think that exact numbers can be stated either. But what's your point? You say you will need a test drive? So, if you think about replacing your existing partner, you will start to cheat on him, or...?


 No I will not have sex with anyone else while i am still with my husband. Just because, I did cheat in a previous relationship (it was more of a revenge thing, with my x) doesn't always mean it will happen again. I know better and cheating would not solve anything. It makes a bad situation worse.


If i did want to have sex with some one else, I would leave my husband first. The grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

Not being a virgin does not = **** or otherwise.

How many MEN come into a marriage as a virgin--I bet the odds are small.

I would never marry someone without trying things out first. A lot of marriages go to hell in a handbasket after they find out that they are not compatible in the bedroom.

Is sex everything is a marriage - no - but take it off the table and you'll find out just HOW important it really is.

I know there are plenty of women and men on this forum that could tell you it's pretty damn important.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> The fact is that in the initial stages of attraction,so much chemistry flows that most people are willing to accept whatever comes wrapped inside that package of what they perceive to be the most beautiful person in the universe.
> 
> Lying and Deception destroys that feeling.


The Five Love Languages discusses that theory.

The chemistry blinds us to who and what the person really is.

It's when the chemistry wears off that sometimes you look at them and say--what the hell did I do?

That's what I've always said--people confuse the four letter word all the time - LUST or LOVE.

I married my first husband out of LUST and when it wore off there was nothing there. 

I lusted after my second husband too, but when the LUST faded, as it always does, the LOVE was still there--that's how I knew the difference and realized I had married right the second time.


----------



## Mr steal your girl

What's with all the tip toeing on this subject. If women are offended by a man's choice, then so be it. If you went wild in your hey days, then you need to take ownership. A man has a right to take that consideration. What you did you need to own up to it.

Yes Sexual History matters, especially for a man.

It seems like the women on here that have a lot of bodies on their resume have taken their anger out on the angels that saved themselves for marriage.

If you take this question to heart, then at the end of the day you need to look at yourself in the mirror.


----------



## Maricha75

Mr steal your girl said:


> What's with all the tip toeing on this subject. If women are offended by a man's choice, then so be it. If you went wild in your hey days, then you need to take ownership. A man has a right to take that consideration. What you did you need to own up to it.
> 
> Yes Sexual History matters, especially for a man.
> 
> It seems like the women on here that have a lot of bodies on their resume have taken their anger out on the angels that saved themselves for marriage.
> 
> If you take this question to heart, then at the end of the day you need to look at yourself in the mirror.


Conversely... if a man beds a lot of women before he decides to get married, he should suck it up if the woman he has his eye on tells him to go to hell because she doesn't like HIS history/number.

I didn't wait til I was married. My husband wasn't my first. But I wish he was. You can't say it's important "especially for the man"... No, it is important to some women as well.EVERYONE has his/her own preferences. Each is just as valid as the other.


----------



## Mr steal your girl

Maricha75 said:


> Conversely... if a man beds a lot of women before he decides to get married, he should suck it up if the woman he has his eye on tells him to go to hell because she doesn't like HIS history/number.
> 
> I didn't wait til I was married. My husband wasn't my first. But I wish he was. You can't say it's important "especially for the man"... No, it is important to some women as well.EVERYONE has his/her own preferences. Each is just as valid as the other.


Yes exactly, and I agree with you. But virginity matters more to a man. Men are killing people over 72 virgins. Most women care more about a man being stable, character, career prospects and having qualities to provide.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

Oh yeah because once a woman has had sex with a few men then it becomes physically impossible for her to bear children without a paternity test. Her uterus is tainted and sperm from every man she's ever been with remains with her forever therefore tainting any children she may bear in the future.

Like I said, honesty! Live by it, practice it and expect it from any potential LT partner.


----------



## Maricha75

Mr steal your girl said:


> Yes exactly, and I agree with you. But virginity matters more to a man. Men are killing people over 72 virgins. Most women care more about a man being stable, character, career prospects and having qualities to provide.


You can't speak for all women regarding whether virginity in a man is so important to her. I know quite a few who it WAS very important to. Still others, while it wasn't high on their lists, it was important. Virginity doesn't matter more to a man than to a woman. There are plenty of women out there who DO put it high on their lists.


----------



## Thundarr

Maricha75 said:


> You can't speak for all women regarding whether virginity in a man is so important to her. I know quite a few who it WAS very important to. Still others, while it wasn't high on their lists, it was important. Virginity doesn't matter more to a man than to a woman. There are plenty of women out there who DO put it high on their lists.


I have to agree with steel though that more men put it higher on their list of preferences than women do. Some women hold it very high in priority but I think this thread proves that more men are certain that it matters to them.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

Thundarr said:


> I have to agree with steel though that more men put it higher on their list of preferences than women do. Some women hold it very high in priority but I think this thread proves that more men are certain that it matters to them.


For sure and coming from a virginal man or a man with a low count on sexual partners (like 3 or less) it's really easy to get BUT from coming from woman's perspective a man who's been around the block alot spouting that mess is comical at best because anything he can dish out can be turned right around back on him.


----------



## Mr steal your girl

Maricha75 said:


> You can't speak for all women regarding whether virginity in a man is so important to her. I know quite a few who it WAS very important to. Still others, while it wasn't high on their lists, it was important. Virginity doesn't matter more to a man than to a woman. There are plenty of women out there who DO put it high on their lists.


I never said "all" women...I said "most"...Yes I'm quite sure there are some women that place a high importance on virginity, but to put it simply, men place a higher importance on a woman's sexuality. There is a reason why women were coming out the woodwork giving emotional responses defending their sexual background, and why the OP had to defend his position many times regarding a woman's sexual history was not meant to antagonize.

Men will literally kill each other for virgins. They will offer millions of dollars just so they can be the first guy to pop some woman's cherry. This is not even up for debate. Men just happen to place a higher importance on a women's sexuality.


----------



## Mr steal your girl

HopelesslyJaded said:


> For sure and coming from a virginal man or a man with a low count on sexual partners (like 3 or less) it's really easy to get BUT from coming from woman's perspective a man who's been around the block alot spouting that mess is comical at best because anything he can dish out can be turned right around back on him.


True but here's the thing... If George Clooney wanted a virgin woman to marry...There would be women lined up From New York to Philly waiting on that opportunity.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

Mr steal your girl said:


> True but here's the thing... If George Clooney wanted a virgin woman to marry...There would be women lined up From New York to Philly waiting on that opportunity.


Yeah..Gold Diggers...We are talking regular man/woman folk here.


----------



## Maricha75

Mr steal your girl said:


> I never said "all" women...I said "most"...Yes I'm quite sure there are some women that place a high importance on virginity, but to put it simply, men place a higher importance on a woman's sexuality. There is a reason why women were coming out the woodwork giving emotional responses defending their sexual background, and why the OP had to defend his position many times regarding a woman's sexual history was not meant to antagonize.
> 
> Men will literally kill each other for virgins. They will offer millions of dollars just so they can be the first guy to pop some woman's cherry. This is not even up for debate. Men just happen to place a higher importance on a women's sexuality.


You know, you're right. My personal experience, the women I know IRL, don't matter in this. All that matters is what the statistics say. Thanks for clearing that up for me.


----------



## Thundarr

HopelesslyJaded said:


> For sure and coming from a virginal man or a man with a low count on sexual partners (like 3 or less) it's really easy to get BUT from coming from woman's perspective a man who's been around the block alot spouting that mess is comical at best because anything he can dish out can be turned right around back on him.


I agree it's insulting, it's a double standard, it's hypocritical. Men on this thread may have it turned back on them/us but in the real world women just don't hold us accountable to this particular standard often. If anything having a lot of women in the past makes us somehow more worthy to a lot of women. The one "she" was able to tame. Men just don't think that way.


----------



## Thundarr

HopelesslyJaded said:


> Yeah..Gold Diggers...We are talking regular man/woman folk here.


No what he's saying is women are more attracted to power and success. It's not an insult. Any great rock band has plenty of groupies following them around intoxicated with fame. I doubt famous women have groupies following them around even the rockers like Joan Jett back in the day.

No ladies please don't take groupie to mean anything other than a reference to actual groupies following rock bands. I can already see this being twisted into something crazy.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

Thundarr said:


> I agree it's insulting, it's a double standard, it's hypocritical. Men on this thread may have it turned back on them/us but in the real world women just don't hold us accountable to this particular standard often. If anything having a lot of women in the past makes us somehow more worthy to a lot of women. The one "she" was able to tame. Men just don't think that way.


Some women are silly that way but I really think it boils down to societal acceptance of the "boys will be boys" crap. It's expected and socially accepted that men will sleep around. And then when they are finally ready to settle down it's ok for them to feel entitled to purity and critisize women for doing no different than they have. Which is bullocks. (sorry I have watched a little too much Ricky Gervais)

Women were and still are expected to be "good girls" and wait (be virtuous) like having sex changes their intelligence and worth as a human being.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Personally I haven't met many women that don't care about mens numbers, but bound to be some.


----------



## Thundarr

My wife had a past and it mattered to me. I got over it because she was worth it. I had a past. I don't think she cared but she should have. Actually I told her all about my past when we were getting serious so she would know in case it mattered. I hold myself accountable.


----------



## FalconKing

Thundarr said:


> My wife had a past and it mattered to me. I got over it because she was worth it. I had a past. I don't think she cared but she should have. Actually I told her all about my past when we were getting serious so she would know in case it mattered. I hold myself accountable.


Ditto! Out of the four women I dated, only 1 was actually interested in knowing about my past to a great extent. And they all came from much different past. One was a virgin, one had A LOT of partners, one had maybe 6, and one had I think 3. All they cared about was me being nice to them and treating them with respect. Those are good things but what if I was some kind of ex-prostitute?! Or a swinger? If those things make them nervous they still need to know it. In the dating phase everyone is on their best behavior so if you treat somebody well enough they may feel they have no need to know your past. I think that way of thinking is dangerous. A woman should know my bad while I try my best to show her my good. Vice Versa.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Thundarr said:


> No what he's saying is women are more attracted to power and success. It's not an insult. Any great rock band has plenty of groupies following them around intoxicated with fame.


Although I could have made a nice Groupie in my youth... boy did I ever love some rock stars, even drug my husband to John Cougar Mellencamps Hometown once, we got a picture in front of the Pink House he was giving away and slept in a tent a few nights checking out his town & some festivals going on. 

But really...how true this is.... there was once a post on here by a woman ...making a point.... joking who would want a Johhny Depp who worked in a Grocery Store over the famous star, she asked. I had to reply to that... cause in reality... I think I would ! I've always looked MORE for the innocent romance, the calm lifestyle... it was never about a man's material success to me, or the power, the prestique. I always looked at that... as something we can build together "hand in hand"... might start out slow, but that's Ok. 

I would have zero desire to be with someone that had such a busy high profile lifestyle...with all that demand, with other women at his feet /temptation daily/ that would be HELL in my opinion....I wouldn't even want a CEO...he would be too busy for family & "Us" time....Nope, just a "SIMPLE MAN" like the Lynyrd Skynyrd tune - with good character , honesty, faithfulness , his being my Best friend side by side - just like us running off together to go check out a rock stars hometown. 

Sweet memories really.


----------



## WyshIknew

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Not being a virgin does not = **** or otherwise.
> 
> How many MEN come into a marriage as a virgin--I bet the odds are small.
> 
> I would never marry someone without trying things out first. A lot of marriages go to hell in a handbasket after they find out that they are not compatible in the bedroom.
> 
> Is sex everything is a marriage - no - but take it off the table and you'll find out just HOW important it really is.
> 
> I know there are plenty of women and men on this forum that could tell you it's pretty damn important.


I didn't go into my marriage a virgin but I did meet my wife as a virgin so I'm one of the small percentage.

Wasn't at all worried that my wife was much more experienced than me (not difficult TBH) in fact it was good that she was experienced as she could 'take me in hand'

I think it was useful that at least one of us had some experience
because yes, the sex was and is very important.


----------



## FalconKing

HopelesslyJaded said:


> Some women are silly that way but I really think it boils down to societal acceptance of the "boys will be boys" crap.


Yeah I HATE this. And it's detrimental to the relationship. That whole, "Oh he is just being a guy." Here is an example. Let's say you have a couple. Jeff and Susan. Before Susan met Jeff, he slept with countless women. He thought Susan was a good girl and wanted to settle down. Thinkging about his past Susan just rationalized Jeff was just being a guy. She rationalized this when she caught him checking out other women, looking at porn, checking out the models in magazines and asking for her comments on those models, and when he mentions hot actresses that are on t.v. She even rationalized he was just "being a guy", and didn't want to know where or what he did for his bachelor party. Let's not forget when he goes out with his buddies to bars on the weekends while Susan keeps the kids. 

Suddenly after 10 years of marriage Susan is no longer interested in having sex with Jeff but doesn't know why. Jeff is mad because he thinks Susan should just do it. She knows Jeff is a normal guy and a good provider but she is just never in the mood. She thinks she needs romance. Jeff brings her flowers every now and then and even cleans the house, hoping to get some sex. But he still continues to just "be a guy" and things do not get better. Some men never learn that they have to make a woman feel like she is the only woman for them. Having a woman and being nice to her and tolerating her company, they feel like they are doing enough. And for a lot of women, being conditioned to accept this behavior as normal they don't know whats wrong when they are completely turned off by their husband. 

If you are ok with something somebody does, then you have to ask yourself why you are ok with it. Because everybody else says its ok? Or normal? I think we have to always ask ourselves these questions when getting to know someone. And then ask if this is something we are willing to put up with in a long term partner.


----------



## that_girl

Yea, I never accepted the "boys will be boys" bullcrap.

We ALL have this thing called a BRAIN. Choices are made. Girls can be girls, but that doesn't mean I need to chose to be an emotional, hormonal betch. We all control our own actions. Men and women.


----------



## that_girl

I dated enough musicians in my life to know they simply aren't worth the hype HA!

My ex is still trying to be a rockstar at 38. At 24 it was cool....almost. Now....eh. oh well, his choice...and he's missing out on his daughter's life.


----------



## anonim

Mr steal your girl said:


> Yes exactly, and I agree with you. But virginity matters more to a man. Men are killing people over 72 virgins. Most women care more about a man being stable, character, career prospects and having qualities to provide.


Maybe virginity matters more to _you, _but your generalizations are simply not true.

And I dont know about you, but I dont know any man that killed someone over 72 virgins. heck i dont even know 72 virgins.


----------



## anonim

FalconKing said:


> Ditto! Out of the four women I dated, only 1 was actually interested in knowing about my past to a great extent. And they all came from much different past. One was a virgin, one had A LOT of partners


How many is a lot?


----------



## FalconKing

Steal is referring to a religious sect of suicide bombers. They believe 72 virgins await them in heaven. 



anonim said:


> How many is a lot?


Read the very first post of this thread. If you need anymore help being defensive about something please let me know.


----------



## Entropy3000

Folks like to bring out extremist islamic comments to try to convince people that the world is somehow black and white.


----------



## Entropy3000

anonim said:


> How many is a lot?


 ( ( 2 * current_age ) - 16 ) / 2.718 ) - number_of_ONS

A negative number here is not a good thing.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

FalconKing said:


> Yeah I HATE this. And it's detrimental to the relationship. That whole, "Oh he is just being a guy." Here is an example. Let's say you have a couple. Jeff and Susan. Before Susan met Jeff, he slept with countless women. He thought Susan was a good girl and wanted to settle down. Thinkging about his past Susan just rationalized Jeff was just being a guy. She rationalized this when she caught him checking out other women, looking at porn, checking out the models in magazines and asking for her comments on those models, and when he mentions hot actresses that are on t.v. She even rationalized he was just "being a guy", and didn't want to know where or what he did for his bachelor party. Let's not forget when he goes out with his buddies to bars on the weekends while Susan keeps the kids.
> 
> Suddenly after 10 years of marriage Susan is no longer interested in having sex with Jeff but doesn't know why. Jeff is mad because he thinks Susan should just do it. She knows Jeff is a normal guy and a good provider but she is just never in the mood. She thinks she needs romance. Jeff brings her flowers every now and then and even cleans the house, hoping to get some sex. But he still continues to just "be a guy" and things do not get better. Some men never learn that they have to make a woman feel like she is the only woman for them. Having a woman and being nice to her and tolerating her company, they feel like they are doing enough. And for a lot of women, being conditioned to accept this behavior as normal they don't know whats wrong when they are completely turned off by their husband.
> 
> If you are ok with something somebody does, then you have to ask yourself why you are ok with it. Because everybody else says its ok? Or normal? I think we have to always ask ourselves these questions when getting to know someone. And then ask if this is something we are willing to put up with in a long term partner.


This was a great post FalconKing. 

Ya know, I am guilty of using the "*Boys will be Boys*" ideology feeling all men are somewhat "doggish" in wanting to sneak a little porn (after all my husband had 300 Playboy magazines in his youth) ......but he's never been anything , not for a day - like what you describe here...other than enjoying the female form. He was never one to gawk at women in front of me either. 

What you describe is a man who never really grows up & "gets" what women truly need in a relationship / what his wife is yearning for deep within....a man should never forget to *Romance* his woman...or her libido will slowly take a dive.... we all want to feel like a Treasure. 



> Some men never learn that they have to make a woman feel like she is the only woman for them.


 I've always been treated like this ~ from day 1.....I am admittedly soooo spoiled.....I even took it for granted for a time.  He didn't bring me flowers cause I told him early on I'd rather him not waste his $$... I'd rather him pick me some in the backyard, ha ha. After all, It's the thought that counts. Love when our little boys would bring me a handful of dandilions, they were so pleased with themselves ...often brought a tear to my eye. 

In reading stories in the sex section, I near immediately take the side of THE MAN in how he is suffering not getting enough sex ....women have gotten irritated with me even... But how often is what you express here really the underlying issue.... even if she can't express it in her post. 

I know... one of the reasons I want to rip my husbands clothes off ....it's not all libido....IS because of how he treats me & always has -even when I didn't treat him so wonderful or give back as much...I admire him so much for the man he has always been ~ makes me want to give him the world in return.


----------



## 2ntnuf

This is what I was hoping to read. Apparently, I was not showing my wife that I cared about her. I thought I was, but somehow I did not. I must be the epitome of stupid. What can I do to break out of this? What must I do to learn how to make my woman know that she is the most precious thing in the world? That is what I need to know. What a fool I am. No wonder I hate myself.


----------



## anony2

2ntnuf said:


> This is what I was hoping to read. Apparently, I was not showing my wife that I cared about her. I thought I was, but somehow I did not. I must be the epitome of stupid. What can I do to break out of this? What must I do to learn how to make my woman know that she is the most precious thing in the world? That is what I need to know. What a fool I am. No wonder I hate myself.


You aren't a fool, you just need to find out what makes her feel as if she is the most precious thing in the world. For me, it is my husbands commitment to our marriage.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

2ntnuf said:


> This is what I was hoping to read. Apparently, I was not showing my wife that I cared about her. I thought I was, but somehow I did not. I must be the epitome of stupid. What can I do to break out of this? What must I do to learn how to make my woman know that she is the most precious thing in the world? That is what I need to know. What a fool I am. No wonder I hate myself.


I find your post very humbling 2ntnuf ... a man speaking his







....which is what we all need when we realize we missed it with our spouses....

As for me....I cried a RIVER of tears when I realized how I hurt my husband in the past...when I started walking in his shoes .. I looked at him, and said "how the hell did you put up with me, putting yourself down like that" , I told him I would have raised the roof off the house. 

I was just being selfish & basically ...stupid, when going through yrs & yrs of infertlity, I was soooo darn focused on conceiving, I just brushed my husband's needs right off - telling him to wait, all I cared about was his







-not thinking about his pleasure - this was very difficult on him .... 

I was a very dumb woman (after all he always satisfied me)... once I realized the hurt I caused, well....I wanted to spend the rest of my days making up for what I felt we missed, due to my stupidity. 

It was a new beginning ... I became what he's wanted & craved our entire marraige (while putting himself down -feeling it was for MY benefit)... Maybe your wife feels as my husband... 








It is NEVER NEVER too late. Start today to be that man of her dreams.










Maybe get a hold of  The Love Dare .


----------



## Deejo

FalconKing said:


> Yeah I HATE this. And it's detrimental to the relationship. That whole, "Oh he is just being a guy." Here is an example. Let's say you have a couple. Jeff and Susan. Before Susan met Jeff, he slept with countless women. He thought Susan was a good girl and wanted to settle down. Thinkging about his past Susan just rationalized Jeff was just being a guy. She rationalized this when she caught him checking out other women, looking at porn, checking out the models in magazines and asking for her comments on those models, and when he mentions hot actresses that are on t.v. She even rationalized he was just "being a guy", and didn't want to know where or what he did for his bachelor party. Let's not forget when he goes out with his buddies to bars on the weekends while Susan keeps the kids.
> 
> Suddenly after 10 years of marriage Susan is no longer interested in having sex with Jeff but doesn't know why. Jeff is mad because he thinks Susan should just do it. She knows Jeff is a normal guy and a good provider but she is just never in the mood. She thinks she needs romance. Jeff brings her flowers every now and then and even cleans the house, hoping to get some sex. But he still continues to just "be a guy" and things do not get better. Some men never learn that they have to make a woman feel like she is the only woman for them. Having a woman and being nice to her and tolerating her company, they feel like they are doing enough. And for a lot of women, being conditioned to accept this behavior as normal they don't know whats wrong when they are completely turned off by their husband.
> 
> If you are ok with something somebody does, then you have to ask yourself why you are ok with it. Because everybody else says its ok? Or normal? I think we have to always ask ourselves these questions when getting to know someone. And then ask if this is something we are willing to put up with in a long term partner.


I like what you laid out, but it is only one small possibility in an endless ocean of potential possibilities. You know what I think?

I think Susan just got plain old bored with Jeff, and his sexual history has ZERO to do with why she isn't interested in getting funky. They are 10 years on, and Susan starts focusing her attention elsewhere ... outside the marriage ... because she has decided Jeff's a selfish jerk and has been that way since she's known him ... but quietly put up with it. But now ... just maybe, Susan is wondering what her life may have been like if she had sowed her wild oats as well. And voila ... you're on your way to a possible affair, or Walk Away Wife.

Do I blame her? Nope. Do I blame him? No. They were both crappy partners. Both are responsible for the dynamic they created.

I have said it before, and I firmly believe it. Should you be the best patner you can be? Yes. Always.

But whether you are ignoring them, or laying the world at their feet ... if one partner decides they aren't feeling fulfilled in the relationship and that fact has not CLEARLY been conveyed to the other partner who may or may not respond accordingly, then the entire relationship has just been put at risk. That's how it goes.

And I don't believe sexual history has any more to do with the evolution of that scenario than whether or not you are emotionally, financially, spiritually or socially stable in the conduct of your life and marriage.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Deejo said:


> I like what you laid out, but it is only one small possibility in an endless ocean of potential possibilities. You know what I think?
> 
> *I think Susan just got plain old bored with Jeff, and his sexual history has ZERO to do with why she isn't interested in getting funky.* They are 10 years on, and Susan starts focusing her attention elsewhere ... outside the marriage ... because she has decided Jeff's a selfish jerk and has been that way since she's known him ... but quietly put up with it. *But now ... just maybe, Susan is wondering what her life may have been like if she had sowed her wild oats as well. And voila ... you're on your way to a possible affair, or Walk Away Wife.*
> 
> Do I blame her? Nope. Do I blame him? No. They were both crappy partners. Both are responsible for the dynamic they created.
> 
> I have said it before, and I firmly believe it. Should you be the best patner you can be? Yes. Always.
> 
> But whether you are ignoring them, or laying the world at their feet ... if one partner decides they aren't feeling fulfilled in the relationship and that fact has not CLEARLY been conveyed to the other partner who may or may not respond accordingly, then the entire relationship has just been put at risk. That's how it goes.
> 
> And I don't believe sexual history has any more to do with the evolution of that scenario than whether or not you are emotionally, financially, spiritually or socially stable in the conduct of your life and marriage.



Respectfully sir,
I think your last paragraph contradicts the parts highlighted in the second paragraph.

Because Susan now feels that maybe she should have had more partners before Jeff.
In other words based on her past inexperience,she came to a conclusion to explain / justify her present feelings of sexual boredom. Not that it is factual, but she is using it [ past sexual history ] on herself a a yardstick.
So even to herself,her personal ,sexual history mattered. So whereas Jeff saw her as a " good girl ", she now regrets being a 
" good girl."
A person's past in more ways than one,contributes to their present state of mind. 
If matters are left unresolved, they WILL come back up.
A good example of this is when a spouse , male and female make contact with past lovers trying to rekindle old flames.
A general rule I apply to myself that has helped me in my marriage is that I have NEVER walked back into any relationship I walked away from.
When I am finished,
I am finished.


----------



## anonim

FalconKing said:


> If you need anymore help being defensive about something please let me know.


Your projection is showing.


----------



## Deejo

Caribbean Man said:


> Respectfully sir,
> I think your last paragraph contradicts the parts highlighted in the second paragraph.
> 
> Because Susan now feels that maybe she should have had more partners before Jeff.
> In other words based on her past inexperience,she came to a conclusion to explain / justify her present feelings of sexual boredom. Not that it is factual, but she is using it [ past sexual history ] on herself a a yardstick.
> So even to herself,her personal ,sexual history mattered. So whereas Jeff saw her as a " good girl ", she now regrets being a
> " good girl."
> A person's past in more ways than one,contributes to their present state of mind.
> If matters are left unresolved, they WILL come back up.
> A good example of this is when a spouse , male and female make contact with past lovers trying to rekindle old flames.
> A general rule I apply to myself that has helped me in my marriage is that I have NEVER walked back into any relationship I walked away from.
> When I am finished,
> I am finished.


My simple point is ... once you are IN the marriage ... and start looking however mildly, for ways around or out of it ... you will find them regardless of the excuse. Could be that you wish you had more sexual partners, could be that you don't like the way your partner loads the dishwasher ...

There have been numerous posts here about guys that freaked out after discovering their wives were less than virtuous after being happily married for years. A N.U.T is a N.U.T I suppose. It's just not one I share.

I have no issue with anyone making decisions at the outset about the course of a relationship based on sexual history. It just isn't on my radar.


----------



## Conrad

I've always been much more concerned about what happens AFTER we made the commitment to each other than before.


----------



## Thundarr

I think I'm pretty moderate in this regarding meaning I could deal with more sexual past than many could. In regards to number of partners I know I can because my wife had more than a few. She told me just over 20. Okay that's a lot but here we are happily married for sixteen years. But I still know that sexual history matters based on the context.

I also think we're missing the real point of our disagreement and that is not whether the past matter but instead what about the past is it that matters and how much.

Almost everyone here for example would be uncomfortable knowing the following about their partner's past. Some of these histories would be showstoppers for most people.
- gigolo.
- prostitute.
- child molestor.
- hard core drug abuse.
- serial cheating.

Now something that matters but it's much less important is how many partners.


----------



## anony2

Thundarr said:


> I think I'm pretty moderate in this regarding meaning I could deal with more sexual past than many could. In regards to number of partners I know I can because my wife had more than a few.
> 
> I also think we're missing the real point of our disagreement and that is not whether the past matter but instead what about the past matters.
> 
> Almost everyone here for example would be uncomfortable knowing the following about their partner's past. Some of these histories would be showstoppers for most people.
> - gigolo.
> - prostitute.
> - child molestor.
> - hard core drug abuse.
> - serial cheating.
> 
> What's more flexible to most is number of partners


That sure puts things into perspective, doesn't it?


----------



## Gangland

I hate to say it, because I grew up like everyone else.. and truly want to believe you can't judge a person by their past.


but..... reality has a different agenda.

A persons past is a very good predictor of their future. 

Sure a woman can say, "Well that's because all the guys I dated were pricks and that's why I have more than a handful," but to me a woman with many partners tells me a few things about her. It's always either one or more of these three.

1. You are not a quality woman and so were dumped by many guys

2. You're bad at making desicions, or reading your own and others intentions, and so somehow ended up in the same negative situation repeatedly. or...

3. You do not value your intamacy enough, or have sex for fun.

In my opinion any of those are reasons not to consider comitting to you for the rest of my life...


----------



## Thundarr

Gangland said:


> I hate to say it, because I grew up like everyone else.. and truly want to believe you can't judge a person by their past.
> 
> 
> but..... reality has a different agenda.
> 
> A persons past is a very good predictor of their future.
> 
> Sure a woman can say, "Well that's because all the guys I dated were pricks and that's why I have more than a handful," but to me a woman with many partners tells me a few things about her. It's always either one or more of these three.
> 
> 1. You are not a quality woman and so were dumped by many guys
> 
> 2. You're bad at making desicions, or reading your own and others intentions, and so somehow ended up in the same negative situation repeatedly. or...
> 
> 3. You do not value your intamacy enough, or have sex for fun.
> 
> In my opinion any of those are reasons not to consider comitting to you for the rest of my life...


I would add a couple more. These I think are unfortunate and the right man can have a wonderful woman if he's able to understand these dynamics and help change them.
- Low self esteem.
- Little or no relationship with father.
- Abuse which made you devalue sex in order to devalue the abuse.


----------



## Gangland

btw.. I only used woman because I am a man. Same can be said of men.


----------



## CandieGirl

Gangland said:


> I hate to say it, because I grew up like everyone else.. and truly want to believe you can't judge a person by their past.
> 
> 
> but..... reality has a different agenda.
> 
> A persons past is a very good predictor of their future.
> 
> Sure a woman can say, "Well that's because all the guys I dated were pricks and that's why I have more than a handful," but to me a woman with many partners tells me a few things about her. It's always either one or more of these three.
> 
> 1. You are not a quality woman and so were dumped by many guys
> 
> 2. You're bad at making desicions, or reading your own and others intentions, and so somehow ended up in the same negative situation repeatedly. or...
> 
> 3. You do not value your intamacy enough, or have sex for fun.
> 
> In my opinion any of those are reasons not to consider comitting to you for the rest of my life...


Hmmm...you really shouldn't limit your list to women as those three things could easily enough be said about men who've had more than a handful of partners.


----------



## CandieGirl

Automatic disqualification for me would be the use of a prostitute. I wouldn't care if that were the sole experience or one of only two, or a hundred times. You've been with a whhhhhatttt????? El dump-o-ramma...!


----------



## Created2Write

Gangland said:


> btw.. I only used woman because I am a man. Same can be said of men.


He did include men here, fyi.


----------



## Created2Write

CandieGirl said:


> Automatic disqualification for me would be the use of a prostitute. I wouldn't care if that were the sole experience or one of only two, or a hundred times. You've been with a whhhhhatttt????? El dump-o-ramma...!


That would be me too. That is one thing I know, for certain, that would be a deal breaker for me.


----------



## CandieGirl

Yep, and I got to put that particular deal-breaker theory into action in 2008. I started dating a great guy, or so I thought at the time...attractive, in shape, successful...liked to wine and dine...after 6-7 weeks, no sex...like, nadda...just a bit of mild fooling around. At first, I thought he was being a gentleman (lucky me!). We had talked about safe sex, etc, and of course I told him, when the time comes, I will insist on a condom...Well, I waited and waited and waited. After balking at the condom request during another talk, he says to me "Awk don't like condoms...the last time I used a condom was with a prostitute!" OMG - are you effing serious???? Needless to say, that was the end of that. Silver lining is I guess he at least used a condom with her! Yuck! We were supposed to go to Vegas together, I'm so glad I found this out before we went! Who knows what he had planned for us! Gack! 

After, his ex-gf who used to work at the same company as me, told me all kinds of groady things he used to have her do; and she, being all doormatty, willing to please, I'll do anything to keep this fab guy...did them all. GROSS.

I still see him from time to time in the area and that's all I can think of....

So yes. I guess it is good to know someone's past! LMAO!


----------



## FalconKing

CandieGirl said:


> Hmmm...you really shouldn't limit your list to women as those three things could easily enough be said about men who've had more than a handful of partners.


True. But I don't think he's interested in dating men.


----------



## FalconKing

Deejo said:


> I like what you laid out, but it is only one small possibility in an endless ocean of potential possibilities. You know what I think?
> 
> I think Susan just got plain old bored with Jeff, and his sexual history has ZERO to do with why she isn't interested in getting funky. They are 10 years on, and Susan starts focusing her attention elsewhere ... outside the marriage ... because she has decided Jeff's a selfish jerk and has been that way since she's known him ... but quietly put up with it. But now ... just maybe, Susan is wondering what her life may have been like if she had sowed her wild oats as well. And voila ... you're on your way to a possible affair, or Walk Away Wife.
> 
> Do I blame her? Nope. Do I blame him? No. They were both crappy partners. Both are responsible for the dynamic they created.
> 
> I have said it before, and I firmly believe it. Should you be the best patner you can be? Yes. Always.
> 
> But whether you are ignoring them, or laying the world at their feet ... if one partner decides they aren't feeling fulfilled in the relationship and that fact has not CLEARLY been conveyed to the other partner who may or may not respond accordingly, then the entire relationship has just been put at risk. That's how it goes.
> 
> And I don't believe sexual history has any more to do with the evolution of that scenario than whether or not you are emotionally, financially, spiritually or socially stable in the conduct of your life and marriage.


Honestly I wasn't referring to sexual history in that post either. It was more along the lines of men doing certain things to disrespect their wives and never realizing it because certain things are so widely accepted. Even though these things are normal. After years of putting up with this these things make women feel insecure IMO. I wasn't connecting it to sexual history, just the whole boys will be boys mindset. Being neglectful and having no interest or understanding of romance and then expecting the wife to just be happy. It was just a scenario that often happens in marriages. But the scenario you presented happens often as well. Many things can lead to a bad marriage. That was just the example I presented based on behavior that is acceptable by men that shouldn't be. Apologies for the misunderstanding.


----------



## FalconKing

anonim said:


> Your projection is showing.


So is your lack of thread reading.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

FalconKing said:


> Honestly I wasn't referring to sexual history in that post either. It was more along the lines of men doing certain things to disrespect their wives and never realizing it because certain things are so widely accepted. Even though these things are normal. After years of putting up with this these things make women feel insecure IMO. I wasn't connecting it to sexual history, just the whole boys will be boys mindset. Being neglectful and having no interest or understanding of romance and then expecting the wife to just be happy. It was just a scenario that often happens in marriages. But the scenario you presented happens often as well. Many things can lead to a bad marriage. That was just the example I presented based on behavior that is acceptable by men that shouldn't be. Apologies for the misunderstanding.


I thought it was a trap. I thought you were throwing us women a bone to be turned around on us. :rofl: That's why I didn't comment on it. See I am jaded and paranoid!


----------



## FalconKing

HopelesslyJaded said:


> I thought it was a trap. I thought you were throwing us women a bone to be turned around on us. :rofl: That's why I didn't comment on it. See I am jaded and paranoid!


Well..there are probably a few women here who would never accept my friend request on facebook...:yawn2:


----------



## Maricha75

FalconKing said:


> Well..there are probably a few women here who would never accept my friend request on facebook...:yawn2:


:rofl::rofl:
I'd be the odd one who would! 
I have some ODD friends.


----------



## Mr steal your girl

Yes It's a double standard.
Do I apply the double standard: Yes
Am I a hypocrite: Absolutely
Do you think I care that I'm a hypocrite: NOPE


Why would I want to choose a woman with the same number of sex partners that I had? Should a woman choose a broke, no future or potential career earnings male just because she is in the same position?



Why get mad at the double standard? There's many double standards that benefit women over men. 

If you had sex with a lot of men, own up to it and be proud. But don't get mad when someone like me judges you for it and chooses to smash...then pass.


----------



## TiggyBlue

FalconKing you make for very intresting reading.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

Mr steal your girl said:


> If you had sex with a lot of men, own up to it and be proud. But don't get mad when someone like me judges you for it and chooses to smash...then pass.


At least your owning up to your hypocritical nature but this reads total jackass. 

But society in general condones this behavior. I will do my best to teach my sons better than this arrogant crap.


----------



## Maricha75

HopelesslyJaded said:


> At least your owning up to your hypocritical nature but this reads total jackass.
> 
> But society in general condones this behavior. *I will do my best to teach my sons better than this arrogant crap.*


Same here.


----------



## Mr steal your girl

HopelesslyJaded said:


> At least your owning up to your hypocritical nature but this reads total jackass.
> 
> But society in general condones this behavior. I will do my best to teach my sons better than this arrogant crap.


But I do believe in abstinence though.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Looks like some women are finally admitting that at least some parts of a man's sexual history matters to them.

According to what I've read here, having sex with a prostitute / call girl / escort / stripper ,seems to be a disqualifier.
All very good.

But is there a real difference between a guy who has sex with a girl who's having sex with multiple partners, and a guy who has sex with a girl who has sex with multiple partners in exchange for money?


----------



## Thundarr

Caribbean Man said:


> Looks like some women are finally admitting that at least some parts of a man's sexual history matters to them.
> 
> According to what I've read here, having sex with a prostitute / call girl / escort / stripper ,seems to be a disqualifier.
> All very good.
> 
> But is there a real difference between a guy who has sex with a girl who's having sex with multiple partners, and a guy who has sex with a girl who has sex with multiple partners in exchange for money?


CB. You had me right until the end there. Having sex for money truly devalues sex to a primal level. Maybe ONSs are in the similar direction but sex with committed partners is not the same. It's not morally wrong to me. Maybe there's bad choices but not truly immoral intention.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

Caribbean Man said:


> But is there a real difference between a guy who has sex with a girl who's having sex with multiple partners, and a guy who has sex with a girl who has sex with multiple partners in exchange for money?


IMO Yes...Hopefully I can type the words tht make sense of my thoughts on this. The prostitute is highER risk because of the money. When they are that desperate then choice/preference is mostly, if not completely removed. They themselves are in turn more willing to have sex with higher risk people for the money. Money changes everything. 

"Oh you only have safe sex?"
"What if I throw in an extra $100?"
"Oh you don't do anal?"
"I got another $100 for that"
"How about unprotected anal for an extra $300?"

Desperation and unfortuneately a corrolating (sp?) drug habit which is very common amongst prostitutes and there you have a recipe for almost certain hardcore STD's. Not just some run of the mill Chlamydia.

Not to mention the added risk of the drug use and needles and so on. So you most likely have super high risk sex, plus high risk drug use and all the baggage that comes with it.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> CB. You had me right until the end there. Having sex for money truly devalues sex to a primal level. Maybe ONSs are in the similar direction but sex with committed partners is not the same. It's not morally wrong to me. Maybe there's bad choices but not truly immoral intention.


Then you and I are on the same level.

Having sex with different committed partners over a period of time is way different to having casual sex with a very high number of non committed partners.

Yes there are bad choices. But a person must see it as a bad choice,or else its not a bad choice to them. A person's perception is often their own reality.

Having sex for money DOES DEVALUE SEX, in the eyes of people who place high value on emotional connections before sex.
So lets remove the money from the equation , and replace it with the same amount of men in the same period of time , with no emotional connection.

Casual Sex = No connection , just pleasure
Commercial Sex = No connection , just pleasure [ & money]

So therefore, if it is ok for a woman to satisfy her primal sexual urges in anyway she see's fit, then what really is the basis of the argument against prostitution?


----------



## Thundarr

HopelesslyJaded said:


> IMO Yes...Hopefully I can type the words tht make sense of my thoughts on this. The prostitute is highER risk because of the money. When they are that desperate then choice/preference is mostly, if not completely removed. They themselves are in turn more willing to have sex with higher risk people for the money. Money changes everything.
> 
> "Oh you only have safe sex?"
> "What if I throw in an extra $100?"
> "Oh you don't do anal?"
> "I got another $100 for that"
> "How about unprotected anal for an extra $300?"
> 
> Desperation and unfortuneately a corrolating (sp?) drug habit which is very common amongst prostitutes and there you have a recipe for almost certain hardcore STD's. Not just some run of the mill Chlamydia.
> 
> Not to mention the added risk of the drug use and needles and so on. So you most likely have super high risk sex, plus high risk drug use and all the baggage that comes with it.


We were talking statistics earlier in the thread. I think sleeping with a prostitute could be proven as much higher risk but I haven't seen anything about it.

Ironically enough, part of the reason it's more dangerous is that prostitutes no nothing about the past of their clients. Maybe it's a stretch but think about it. Anybody with money can take a shot at her without any vetting at all.


----------



## Caribbean Man

HopelesslyJaded said:


> IMO Yes...Hopefully I can type the words tht make sense of my thoughts on this. The prostitute is highER risk because of the money. When they are that desperate then choice/preference is mostly, if not completely removed. They themselves are in turn more willing to have sex with higher risk people for the money. Money changes everything.
> 
> "Oh you only have safe sex?"
> "What if I throw in an extra $100?"
> "Oh you don't do anal?"
> "I got another $100 for that"
> "How about unprotected anal for an extra $300?"
> 
> Desperation and unfortuneately a corrolating (sp?) drug habit which is very common amongst prostitutes and there you have a recipe for almost certain hardcore STD's. Not just some run of the mill Chlamydia.
> 
> Not to mention the added risk of the drug use and needles and so on. So you most likely have super high risk sex, plus high risk drug use and all the baggage that comes with it.


And I agree with you.
But lots of" party girls" have ONS without using condoms.
They're drunk and desperate for sex. 

One does not need to have sex with a prostitute to get an STD. Your description of prostitute its a street walker.
What about a call girl / escort who works for an agency whose rate is $1000. / hour?
Isn't she also a prostitute?


----------



## MrsKy

anonim said:


> Maybe virginity matters more to _you, _but your generalizations are simply not true.
> 
> And I dont know about you, but I dont know any man that killed someone over 72 virgins. heck i dont even know 72 virgins.


:iagree::iagree: 

I love the hilarious words about women who wait until marriage being "angels". Yes, because virgins can _never _be bad people. 

All the virgins I have encountered in my life (I am only speaking of my experience) have been judgemental, santimonious liars who say one thing and do another. 

A real man would rather have an honest s!ut than a conniving virgin.


----------



## FalconKing

Caribbean Man said:


> And I agree with you.
> But lots of" party girls" have ONS without using condoms.
> They're drunk and desperate for sex.
> 
> One does not need to have sex with a prostitute to get an STD. Your description of prostitute its a street walker.
> What about a call girl / escort who works for an agency whose rate is $1000. / hour?
> Isn't she also a prostitute?


:iagree:
I know a guy who has slept with maybe 300 women. Bar girls..party girls..etc... He's had at least 3 STDs:redcard:


----------



## Thundarr

MrsKy said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> 
> I love the hilarious words about women who wait until marriage being "angels". Yes, because virgins can _never _be bad people.
> 
> All the virgins I have encountered in my life (I am only speaking of my experience) have been judgemental, santimonious liars who say one thing and do another.
> 
> A real man would rather have an honest s!ut than a conniving virgin.


Any virgin past 25 or so would scare me if I were in the dating scene.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> We were talking statistics earlier in the thread. I think sleeping with a prostitute could be proven as much higher risk but I haven't seen anything about it.
> 
> *Ironically enough, part of the reason it's more dangerous is that prostitutes no nothing about the past of their clients. Maybe it's a stretch but think about it. Anybody with money can take a shot at her without any vetting at all.*


And ironically,
That's the same problem with casual sex in terms of One Night Stands.
The partners don't know anything about each other, or even if they they are actually sleeping with a prostitute!


----------



## Thundarr

FalconKing said:


> :iagree:
> I know a guy who has slept with maybe 300 women. Bar girls..party girls..etc... He's had at least 3 STDs:redcard:


There's no cure for that. I mean the sleeping with 300 girls part. Seems like something (YOU KNOW) would have traumatized him.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

Caribbean Man said:


> Having sex for money DOES DEVALUE SEX, in the eyes of people who place high value on emotional connections before sex.
> So lets remove the money from the equation , and replace it with the same amount of men in the same period of time , with no emotional connection.
> 
> Casual Sex = No connection , just pleasure
> Commercial Sex = No connection , just pleasure [ & money]
> 
> So therefore, if it is ok for a woman to satisfy her primal sexual urges in anyway she see's fit, then what really is the basis of the argument against prostitution?


Here is where I wish I knew how to put together words in just the right way. Because I do see a difference.

Just because someone has participated in casual sex does not mean they do not value sex in a committed relationship. They just chose to have sex with a human being over masturbating and waiting. They chose to have sex for the simple pleasure of having sex. The only time I have issue with casual sex is when one party is being deceived as to the "meaning" of the encounter. That becomes a moral issue for me. As long as both parties are on the same page and hopefully useing protection.

Speaking from experience as someone who did participate in casual sex myself. I know firsthand that after my husband and I started dating I did not have any urge to seek sex elsewhere. Casual sex did not change my core values and beliefs on what a committed relationship meant to me. 

I wanna rip something more eloquent out of my brain to better explain. I am not a poet. LOL


----------



## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> *Any virgin past 25 or so would scare me if I were in the dating scene.*


I think I have said it on this thread,
I never liked virgins!
I had always preferred experience women. 

But if a person chooses to remain a virgin, then I fully respect their choice.
I married my wife when she was 27, and she was still a virgin.
If she was judgemental and sanctimonious ,
We would have long parted ways.

About liars,
I think liars are way more common than virgins,
About 1000 : 1


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

Caribbean Man said:


> And I agree with you.
> But lots of" party girls" have ONS without using condoms.
> They're drunk and desperate for sex.
> 
> One does not need to have sex with a prostitute to get an STD. Your description of prostitute its a street walker.
> What about a call girl / escort who works for an agency whose rate is $1000. / hour?
> Isn't she also a prostitute?


A rose by any other name smells the same. I don't care what title you put on it or how high class one makes it sound. They are all prostitues. And I will lump them together.


----------



## TiggyBlue

don't escorts use condoms though?


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

abitlost said:


> don't escorts use condoms though?


I would refer you to my earlier post on PROSTITUTES and money. 

To add: I think we all know there is an added STD risk that comes along with having sex with more people. There are wonderful tests out there these days and when embarking on a possible long term relationship one can always require them to be done for piece of mind. I will not argue that point. I think that sidetracks the main discussion on the perceived idea that someone who has had more sex partners does not value "making love".


----------



## Caribbean Man

HopelesslyJaded said:


> A rose by any other name smells the same. I don't care what title you put on it or how high class one makes it sound. They are all prostitues. And I will lump them together.


Ok Hope,
Lets make it simpler.
If a man had sex over a period of time with a high priced prostitute / escort for free.
Lets say they both know each other and they had a friends with benefits thing going because of her lifestyle.
So he had a period of casual sex with her. 

Would that immediately disqualify him in your books from becoming your partner?


----------



## TiggyBlue

what if a guy was really shy when he was younger or had low self confidence and thought the only way he could get some was to pay for it. Theres a possiblity some pay because they think they're worthless.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

Caribbean Man said:


> Ok Hope,
> Lets make it simpler.
> If a man had sex over a period of time with a high priced prostitute / escort for free.
> Lets say they both know each other and they had a friends with benefits thing going because of her lifestyle.
> So he had a period of casual sex with her.
> 
> Would that immediately disqualify him in your books from becoming your partner?


Yep

But of course I would have to know this.


----------



## Maricha75

Thundarr said:


> Any virgin past 25 or so would scare me if I were in the dating scene.


I actually know a girl who is 26 and still a virgin. She has decided (religious beliefs) to wait until she is married. I applaud her for holding to her values. I see nothing wrong with that. She is a real sweetheart. Nothing conniving, judgmental, etc about her at all.

I think it may be more likely that a real man would want a woman who is honest, caring, loving than one who is judgmental, *****y, whining, conniving, etc.... whether virgin or not, agreed?


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

abitlost said:


> what if a guy was really shy when he was younger or had low self confidence and thought the only way he could get some was to pay for it. Theres a possiblity some pay because they think they're worthless.


There is always a million scenarios that could be played out. It's hard for me to predict my exact reactions and feelings on them all if I were single. I have never completely understood paying for prostitutes when there is so much out there for free not matter what you look like.

But....we would have to be talking about someone who was actually up front and honest about this information.


----------



## Caribbean Man

HopelesslyJaded said:


> Yep
> 
> *But of course I would have to know this*.


Of course I am basing my assumptions on you already knowing it.

So why would it disqualify him?

Because 
A] She was a prostitute or because
B] He might have an STD?

If the answer is [ B ], suppose he was screened for STD's and turned up negative on all counts .

Would he still be disqualified?


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

Caribbean Man said:


> Of course I am basing my assumptions on you already knowing it.
> 
> So why would it disqualify him?
> 
> Because
> A] She was a prostitute or because
> B] He might have an STD?
> 
> If the answer is [ B ], suppose he was screened for STD's and turned up negative on all counts .
> 
> Would he still be disqualified?


Let's just say there was a man who had the past you described and was willing to jump through the hoops I felt necessary to think him dating potential (because I am guessing this is what you mean by him qualifying) that would include a full STD panel and assuming that I am attracted to him then I guess there is a potential for a possibility.

Honesty still goes a long way with me. AND how I am treated.

OH and to answer it wold be a little of both A and B that would bother me.


----------



## Created2Write

Maricha75 said:


> I actually know a girl who is 26 and still a virgin. She has decided (religious beliefs) to wait until she is married. I applaud her for holding to her values. I see nothing wrong with that. She is a real sweetheart. Nothing conniving, judgmental, etc about her at all.
> 
> I think it may be more likely that a real man would want a woman who is honest, caring, loving than one who is judgmental, *****y, whining, conniving, etc.... whether virgin or not, agreed?


:iagree:

I was trying to think of a way to say this. 

Just because a woman has had more than one sexual partner doesn't mean she's automatically more inclined to cheat, or that she doesn't understand the value of sex in a committed relationship. 

Just because a woman is a virgin doesn't mean she's a prude, or that she's self-righteous, judgmental or conniving. As someone who's only had one sexual partner, I don't appreciate that implication at all. But, I could just be overly sensitive about this topic.


----------



## FalconKing

I honestly think people tend to use protection more with strippers and prostitutes than with ONS partners. 

And I think a lot of times when people have ONS they don't want to admit to those intentions because they don't want to pressure each other. Also I don't think some people leave their house with a stack of condoms because they don't want to admit to themselves that their sole purpose is going out and having sex with a random stranger. So when it happens it is perceived as a unique experience and something special. Sort of like living in the moment and seeing where the night goes. Then the sex is perceived as being impulsive. Doing it in a car, behind the club, the bathroom or just getting a hotel a few blocks down. Dressing it up to be something that "just kinda happened." 

With the prostitutes you know what it is. No games being played. It's understood that you both have issues

Both are dealbreakers for me though.


----------



## FalconKing

Created2Write said:


> *But, I could just be overly sensitive about this topic.*


At least you are willing to admit that.


----------



## Caribbean Man

HopelesslyJaded said:


> Let's just say there was a man who had the past you described and was willing to jump through the hoops I felt necessary to think him dating potential (because I am guessing this is what you mean by him qualifying) that would include a full STD panel and assuming that I am attracted to him then I guess there is a potential for a possibility.
> 
> Honesty still goes a long way with me. AND how I am treated.
> 
> OH and to answer it wold be a little of both A and B that would bother me.


Ok Hope,
Thanks for the discussion.
Based on what was said, we can both agree that ,

1] A person has the right to disqualify anybody from their dating prospects based on their sexual history. In yours and some other women's case,it would be any man who has had sex with prostitutes.
[The same rule also applies to men. They just base it on a different criteria.]


2] Attraction can and often does make someone compromise their personal preferences. 

3] Honest in talking about one's past sexual history makes it easier for both partners to move forward.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

Caribbean Man said:


> Ok Hope,
> Thanks for the discussion.
> Based on what was said, we can both agree that ,
> 
> 1] A person has the right to disqualify anybody from their dating prospects based on their sexual history. In yours and some other women's case,it would be any man who has had sex with prostitutes.
> [The same rule also applies to men. They just base it on a different criteria.]
> 
> 
> 2] Attraction can and often does make someone compromise their personal preferences.
> 
> 3] Honest in talking about one's past sexual history makes it easier for both partners to move forward.


I can agree to that. I would just hope that one who would write me off for engaging in activity identical to their own would not make me aware of it. Ignorance is bliss and that would just piss me off more than hurt my feelings. A virgin saying so might come across as snooty or judgemental but more understandable or comprehendible in my mind.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Created2Write said:


> Just because a woman is a virgin doesn't mean she's a prude, or that she's self-righteous, judgmental or conniving. As someone who's only had one sexual partner, I don't appreciate that implication at all. But, I could just be overly sensitive about this topic.


I am definitely sensitve on these things.... why wouldn't I be.... I feel it is a trampeling on many beautiful people, many that I personally know & have in my life...with good hearts & intentions, they don't want to hurt anyone & they are waiting for the love of their lives. 

Hearing this kind of talk makes me want to get my claws out...but this will serve nothing... I just find it  that some feel this strongly.

I don't feel that any group  can so easily be boxed, wrapped & labeled like this.. .. there will always be some rotten apples & it may appear to destroy the whole apple cart- with a quick look.... but it just isn't so. 

Generalizations like this only serve to divide people.


----------



## MrsKy

Created2Write said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I was trying to think of a way to say this.
> 
> Just because a woman has had more than one sexual partner doesn't mean she's automatically more inclined to cheat, or that she doesn't understand the value of sex in a committed relationship.
> 
> Just because a woman is a virgin doesn't mean she's a prude, or that she's self-righteous, judgmental or conniving. As someone who's only had one sexual partner, I don't appreciate that implication at all. But, I could just be overly sensitive about this topic.


No implication intended. I did say that I was only talking about *my experience*. 

I *never *wrote that all virgins were like the ones I had met.  

I don't understand the angry posts from women who waited until marriage.


----------



## MrsKy

MrsKy said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> 
> I love the hilarious words about women who wait until marriage being "angels". Yes, because virgins can _never _be bad people.
> 
> All the virgins *I have encountered in my life (I am only speaking of my experience) *have been judgemental, santimonious liars who say one thing and do another.
> 
> A real man would rather have an honest s!ut than a conniving virgin.


See? Wasn't even talking about any of you.


----------



## that_girl

A woman can be a good woman, no matter her number.

Gawd.


----------



## MrsKy

:iagree::iagree:

Or she can be bad. There is just no correlation and that is the point I was trying to make.


----------



## Entropy3000

If a person thinks it matters. It matters. They have that right. 

If a person wants to have sex with whatever number they have that right. 

If one wants freedom then they have to accept freedom for all concerned. 

Deal with it.

Do people really encourage their children to grow up and bang as many people as they can? 

If so, why would a man or woman want to marry someone who is going to encourage their children to bang as many people as they can. 

Do not confuse what I an saying as repressing your children. I am not anti-sex for sure. I am pro relationships.

If you want your child to live one way but you live another ... what does that say?


----------



## that_girl

So true, Entropy. 

One of the reasons I waited til 21 was so I could tell that to my future children. LOL! that's how far in advance I thought. HA!

I don't promote waiting until marriage...that's a little naive in my thinking. I do, however, promote waiting for sex until adulthood and maturity. I have had a lot of personal, honest talks with my 13 year old. She's receptive. She says it's not even on her mind LOL...ok then. But I talk and she listens. All I can do is hope she really listens and uses her cautious mind before any big decisions. She is my cautious one....since birth.


----------



## Thundarr

Entropy3000 said:


> If you want your child to live one way but you live another ... what does that say?


I will answer your rhetorical question. 

How you hope for your children to be is how you believe you should have been. Sometimes It means you recognize mistakes even the ones you defend in fear of judgement.


----------



## that_girl

Who said I'm fanning the flames? I can't have an opinion?

My mother always said WAIT UNTIL MARRIAGE! WAIT WAIT! WAIT! you're going to HELL! WAIT!

Wtf.

My child will be a woman someday with her own brain. I promote sex in adulthood. I promote a healthy view of sex. I promote her MAKING HER OWN CHOICE. But for me to believe, as a parent, that my daughter will wait until marriage IS NAIVE of me. 

And furthermore, I truly hope she doesn't wait. In my personal life, the people who waited, WISH THEY HADN'T because of sexual issues they are now dealing with in their marriage because for some reason, when people in my life had said WAIT FOR MARRIAGE, they meant, "don't even talk about it, think about it or else!" THAT is naive. I won't throw my child to the wolves when it comes to sex. She will be educated on the physical and emotional benefits/consequences and she will make her OWN decision. I will not sit and demand she waits until marriage, like my mother did. Gawd.

MY OWN PERSONAL BELIEF is that it is naive, as a parent, to think my children will wait until marriage. If you believe that, and bank on them waiting, it could blow up in your face. I had sex at 21 and had no one to talk to about it except my friends because my mom was so gung ho on waiting. Some thing she didn't do...according to my father. so...that's my opinion and I won't be NAIVE to think I can force my children to do anything. I can educate them on all sides of a situation and then let them make their own choices.


----------



## FalconKing

I completely misread your post. I am sorry. I deleted it. I understand exactly where you are coming from. I sincerely apologize.


----------



## that_girl

Huh? I don't know why you are being so defensive. If my child wants to wait until marriage, that's her bag. I will still offer my view on sex and sexuality to push her to discuss ALL aspects with her future husband. I will implore her to talk about sex drives, kinks, etc, if she chooses to wait...because those things can cause hell in a marriage if they aren't equally yoked. 

My child's virginity is not my decision :rofl: I didn't say that waiting until marriage is naive. I said, as a parent, it is naive to expect my child to wait. It's her life. Not mine.


----------



## FalconKing

yeah yeah I fixed it!:gun: *old post*


----------



## that_girl

And if someone feels attacked, when no one has attacked them, then why do they feel attacked?

I can't speak for being a virgin until marriage, because i wasn't. I know that I appreciate my sexual experiences, and don't regret them. It didn't make me a better or worse person--- it just made me who I am. 

I had a lot of sexual shet to figure out in my years before marriage. Things I had to figure out BEFORE committing to someone because of past abuse. By the time I married at 33, I felt sexually confident. If my child doesn't marry young, I am NAIVE to think that she's still a virgin. Nor would I expect her to be. We are not religious in this house....virginity is important, but adulthood and maturity is good enough for me. If she chooses to lose her virginity at a young age, as much as I will be aching for her (because it is emotional and confusing and there are consequences like STDs and pregnancy), I will still educate and accept her just the way she is. We're all on a path. My path is not your path. We just do the best we can and hopefully we don't hurt many people in the process.


----------



## FalconKing

I know I probably won't be able to call you for a kidney transplant....

But I did apologize. The mistake was mine. What else do you want?:yawn2:


----------



## that_girl

Ah...didn't see any apology.

lol. Can't have a kidney. saving them in case my kids need one someday.


----------



## that_girl

FalconKing said:


> I completely misread your post. I am sorry. I deleted it. I understand exactly where you are coming from. I sincerely apologize.


OH! There it is.

You just want to fight.

Bruiser.


----------



## FalconKing

that_girl said:


> And if someone feels attacked, when no one has attacked them, then why do they feel attacked?


There is a lesson here. I thought your post was a jab, it wasn't at all. And you were speaking from the perspective of a parent. You didn't mean to offend anyone at all. You should go back through this thread and see some of the responses. Interesting.


----------



## that_girl

I've seen them. I've replied to some misconceptions of nonvirgin/virgin mindsets...

In my personal mind, I only feel attacked when I question my own choice. Dig? There are some things i will never feel attacked on...

1. My spirituality and beliefs. Why argue with someone about that? SO SILLY to me, unless I questioned my own. I love discussing them, and hearing others, but once the judgement comes in about what I believe, I tune out. Makes no sense to try to convince someone about god, life, etc. 

2. My career. I love it. Don't regret it. I will defend it...but that's because public school teachers get a bad rap. And some teachers do suck. Oooh I know a few. Oh well...it comes with the territory...

3. My marriage. Good or bad or whatever, I will never regret marrying my husband. Not that anyone has ever said I should...lol.

4. My views on sexuality. Who cares what others think about my vagina, hymen or uterus? I love sex, I have sex often and I made 2 children. You wouldn't BELIEVE the people who say I need a boy now because we "only have 2 girls" :rofl: Stay out of my uterus. People can argue about sex and I'll go have it.


----------



## FalconKing

I hear you.

I just felt like people understood what I was saying but didn't want to admit to it. Or they wanted to exclude certain things that made them defensive. 

The past doesn't matter BUT I would never date anyone who has been with prostitutes...

The past doesn't matter BUT I would never date a child molester...

The past doesn't matter BUT I would never date anyone who has slept with 100 women..

WTF!? Guess what folks? You are saying the past matters. 

My EX-GF had a lot of issues. If I meet someone else with the same kind of issues I would probably not pursue a romantic relationship.

I personally only feel attacked if there is another [email protected]_cker claiming to be the King of Falcons. If you find such a sucker let me know..


----------



## EleGirl

Seems to me that the OP's issue is with this woman's present, not her past. Yes her past does mirror a lot of her present behaviors. 

But if she had changed and been the woman he wanted, it does not sound like her past would have bothered him.

She lied to him, picked fights with him, etc. There in is the problem.


----------



## FalconKing

I think her past had too much of an effect.


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> So true, Entropy.
> 
> One of the reasons I waited til 21 was so I could tell that to my future children. LOL! that's how far in advance I thought. HA!
> 
> *I don't promote waiting until marriage...that's a little naive in my thinking. I do, however, promote waiting for sex until adulthood and maturity.* I have had a lot of personal, honest talks with my 13 year old. She's receptive. She says it's not even on her mind LOL...ok then.* But I talk and she listens. All I can do is hope she really listens and uses her cautious mind before any big decisions. She is my cautious one....since birth.*


And this is what I have been saying ad nauseam.
What exactly do we pass on to our children?
They WILL experiment with sex. 
But do we really want OUR children to make the exact , same mistakes as us?

Only a fool will answer " yes " to that.


----------



## MrsKy

that_girl said:


> *And if someone feels attacked, when no one has attacked them, then why do they feel attacked?
> *
> I can't speak for being a virgin until marriage, because i wasn't. I know that I appreciate my sexual experiences, and don't regret them. It didn't make me a better or worse person--- it just made me who I am.
> 
> I had a lot of sexual shet to figure out in my years before marriage. Things I had to figure out BEFORE committing to someone because of past abuse. By the time I married at 33, I felt sexually confident. If my child doesn't marry young, I am NAIVE to think that she's still a virgin. Nor would I expect her to be. We are not religious in this house....virginity is important, but adulthood and maturity is good enough for me. If she chooses to lose her virginity at a young age, as much as I will be aching for her (because it is emotional and confusing and there are consequences like STDs and pregnancy), I will still educate and accept her just the way she is. We're all on a path. My path is not your path. We just do the best we can and hopefully we don't hurt many people in the process.


:iagree::iagree: They feel attacked because they have their own issues. Look how quickly people jumped down my throat for a comment which wasn't even about them!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

As a parent of the children me & my husband have raised, although I surely don't feel they all will wait till marraige... I do not feel it would be niave of me to believe a couple of them may manage it....because that is what they believe in. 

Our oldest feels strongly about it....and the next son ..he & his GF will have been together for a year next month......they are in Track / Cross country / Band and go to Youth group together, great grades, they both wear their silver ring (because they chose to get them - had nothing to do with me). Our 3rd son did NOT want one. 

I just asked him, while he is getting his breakfast here, if I am niave to believe he will wait until marriage... he always tells me the same thing...this is his Plan...so No... I would not be niave. Of course only TIME will tell this story. 

I talk to him openly about Sex / Touching / all of it....and how me & his dad handled ourselves.... He is very mature for his age... just as his Father was and insists his GF wants to wait also ~ their plan. Her father LOVES my son and encourages their relationship, it's not the norm at all. But it doesn't surprise me either, he has seen his character & he is aware what Most boys are like. 

Neither of them is allowed to be alone in the house...each family includes the other on various outings, trips & all. 

Because me & his dad lasted, how can I say they wouldn't , I know such young love is possible. What we see of how these 2 are when together, the vibe is "lasting" even though I tell both of them -they need to "play the feild" a little just as my Grandmother told me - they look at me like I am nuts...I say College will be the ultimate TEST..... It will be an amazingy







love story







IF it lasts.... I've heard other teens/ their friends go on about them.... how good they are together- an example in this day & age, a relationship WITHOUT the drama. It's not the norm in school today by any means. 

Their circumstances are better than ours was...at least my son has a happy home life, and so does his GF. (I didn't).

I will not think badly if my children engage in sex before they are married...or feel they did anything wrong, it is their life to lead... But yes, They know we frown on it terribly before the age of 18.... it shouldn't be engaged in. Why they are monitored... 

But yet... I just wouldn't be surprised if they follow in our footsteps either....because of how we have raised them ... with a full education ~ choices... not a "Do this or you will go to Hell" thrown at them ~~ There is no fear of Hell in our house - I reject such teachings.... Our children will have a far better advantage over me & their Dad...in such education - No repression in this house...hardly, we are more open than the majority..... But still a little old fashioned too.


----------



## CandieGirl

:smthumbup:


FalconKing said:


> True. But I don't think he's interested in dating men.


This is exaclty the type of antagonistic crap I speak of in my current thread; why even say anything if this is all you can come up with? Honestly, you only succeed in making yourself look even more and more ridiculous.

Somebody asked: "Why do some feel attacked?". Pointless replies such as the one above are the reason that some people feel attacked. This OP just can't handle the fact that some of us don't agree with him.  Do I agree with SOME aspects of his question on someone's sexual history? Yes. But like anything else, I have a list of what I am willing (and not willing) to put up with. Sex with wh0res is one of those things. It's disgusting. And before you even ask, yes, there is a huge difference between someone who gets paid to screw, and someone who has ONS. But don't ask me about ONS; never had one!


----------



## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> I will answer your rhetorical question.
> 
> How you hope for your children to be is how you believe you should have been. *Sometimes It means you recognize mistakes even the ones you defend in fear of judgement*.


:iagree:

.......and it takes a MATURE ADULT to admit that.
A lot of people trick themselves into believing the lies or the facade they create and present to other people.


----------



## anonim

Entropy3000 said:


> If a person thinks it matters. It matters. They have that right.
> 
> If a person wants to have sex with whatever number they have that right.
> 
> If one wants freedom then they have to accept freedom for all concerned.
> 
> Deal with it.
> 
> Do people really encourage their children to grow up and bang as many people as they can?
> 
> If so, why would a man or woman want to marry someone who is going to encourage their children to bang as many people as they can.
> 
> Do not confuse what I an saying as repressing your children. I am not anti-sex for sure. I am pro relationships.
> 
> *If you want your child to live one way but you live another ... what does that say?*


depends.

If you are still living it that way while telling your child to live a different way, it says you are a hypocrite.

If you arent, then it says maybe that way didnt work and you dont want your child to walk a path that leads nowhere.


----------



## anonim

that_girl said:


> And if someone feels attacked, when no one has attacked them, then why do they feel attacked?


its because their projection is showing.


----------



## Thundarr

that_girl said:


> And if someone feels attacked, when no one has attacked them, then why do they feel attacked?
> the process.
> 
> 
> anonim said:
> 
> 
> 
> its because their projection is showing.
Click to expand...

I want to call BS on this. About everyone on this thread has being misrepresented and most of the time it's been due to defensive projection of those feeling judged. I've brought this up 3-4 times in pages back. The last time was anony2 and anonim projecting intentions on my comments and and it took us lots of post (2-3 pages) for me to understand the projections were created from a place of past abuse. What was written get distorted.

Falcon misread that_girls post and then pretty quickly deleted his post and apologized for misreading it. That hasn't happened often. Kudos Falcon for stepping up. This is not a topic for some of you/us guys to latch on to.


----------



## anonim

Thundarr said:


> I want to call BS on this. About everyone on this thread has being misrepresented and most of the time it's been due to defensive projection of those feeling judged. I've brought this up 3-4 times in pages back. The last time was anony2 and anonim projecting intentions on my comments and and it took us lots of post (2-3 pages) for me to understand the projections were created from a place of past abuse. What was written get distorted.
> 
> Falcon misread that_girls post and then pretty quickly deleted his post and apologized for misreading it. That hasn't happened often. Kudos Falcon for stepping up. This is not a topic for some of you/us guys to latch on to.


You can call BS if you want to but My Opinion is My Opinion.

It's not about That_Girls posts and Falco's response to it, Its about the question she asked, namely "_And if someone feels attacked, when no one has attacked them, then why do they feel attacked?_" 

If you read a neutral, no person specified post, and take offense and respond as if it were directed at you, then you have projected something into the reading of said post.

And that's when I non nonchalantly walk over to you and speak into your ear "_...psst...your projection is showing._"


----------



## CandieGirl

anonim said:


> You can call BS if you want to but My Opinion is My Opinion.
> 
> It's not about That_Girls posts and Falco's response to it, Its about the question she asked, namely "_And if someone feels attacked, when no one has attacked them, then why do they feel attacked?_"
> 
> *If you read a neutral, no person specified post, and take offense and respond as if it were directed at you, then you have projected something into the reading of said post.*


And when a post is a direct and snarky 'quote', then it's an attack; and when attacked, I counter attack  Passes the time...LOL...


----------



## Entropy3000

Thundarr said:


> I will answer your rhetorical question.
> 
> How you hope for your children to be is how you believe you should have been. Sometimes It means you recognize mistakes even the ones you defend in fear of judgement.


Exactly. So I myself led a certain life style before I was 23. I am sure that I matured in some ways after that.

So my history is what it is. I am fine with it. But I would not encourage my children or anyone elses children to live their lives that way. I would go on to say then that if I had continued that way after that I would be a completely different person. Not a bad person. But not a very mature one either. So one looking for a partner would have every right to evaluate me on that life style. They may not have wanted me to be their partner because of it. That's ok. Not their fault at all.

Sexual history tells us about a person. So do so many other things that when put together ... matters. It is part of the whole picture. It should not be held a secret from the person you intend to spend the rest of your life with IMO. Some do not care. That is fine. People pair up for different reasons.

Sexual history is more than just numbers. As I have said before the types of relationships tell us much. One has to look at the progression of growth in the person. With some people we would see regression and self destruction. How about someone who has sex as a way to get alocohol or drugs? We see that in the non marriage friendly GNO threads.

But more than numbers how would people feel about someone who while single had affairs with married people? Or that they cheated in more than one relationship. Or that they had been married four times before. Or whether they are capable of having children. If all of their sexual experience comes down to 50+ ONSs that is kinda creepy to me anyway. If out of habit they leave money on the night stand .... If a woman has banged all of her personal trainers over the last ten years that might matter to a new husband. Or most of her bosses or co-workers. Good info to know.

It feels like folks want to turn sex into just something like getting something to eat. If so why not have very close OSFs after marriage some of which you have sex with? It is just sex after all. As long as they come home to you it could just be good for the marriage. They would be just getting their needs met. Perhaps marriages would be happier. Hey hon I am going out with Lisa for something to eat and then we are going to her place afterwards. Don't wait up. Surely our spouses would not become jealous insecure or controlling. Why should someone change their life just because of a piece of paper. So this is an open marriage. I mean why would getting married take away someones rights to have sex with a lot of people? Why should someone who is used to going backstage and having sex with the band stop this behavior? It's just sex. Sure these are extreme comments but you can see a shift in attitude on the whole topic.

Can single life be separated from married life? I am sure it can and does happen all the time. But logically to me I would like to see someone practicing monogamous behavior before I would want to marry them. If one intends to have a partner for life you only need to find one of these very rare individuals. If someone is compelled for ten years to seek out some strange multiple times a week why would we expect this to bode well all of a sudden. This would be addictive behavior.

If you can't be with the one you love ... love the one you're with.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> I want to call BS on this. *About everyone on this thread has being misrepresented and most of the time it's been due to defensive projection of those feeling judged. * I've brought this up 3-4 times in pages back. The last time was anony2 and anonim projecting intentions on my comments and and it took us lots of post (2-3 pages) for me to understand the projections were created from a place of past abuse. What was written get distorted.
> 
> Falcon misread that_girls post and then pretty quickly deleted his post and apologized for misreading it. That hasn't happened often. Kudos Falcon for stepping up. This is not a topic for some of you/us guys to latch on to.


:iagree:

........I think most of us [ including that_girl ] have also recognized it and have moved on.


----------



## that_girl

Caribbean Man said:


> And this is what I have been saying ad nauseam.
> What exactly do we pass on to our children?
> They WILL experiment with sex.
> But do we really want OUR children to make the exact , same mistakes as us?
> 
> Only a fool will answer " yes " to that.


I really don't feel like I made sexual mistakes.

I would not be upset if she turned out like me....minus the smoking. Which I'm quitting.


----------



## that_girl

Children are just people. They will grow up, make mistakes, choices, etc...best you can do is educate them.

My mom didn't educate. She just said NO. Everything was no. Never a WHY...just a no. THAT was lame.


----------



## that_girl

Well, SA, you have raised your children to wait...or they decided to wait. I don't put that on my kids. In fact, I hope my kids DON'T wait until marriage. I hope they wait for marriage until their late 20s..I hope they go to college and get a career and support themselves BEFORE any marriage/babies stuff. We'll see


----------



## Gangland

Then you and I are on the same level.



Caribbean Man said:


> Having sex with different committed partners over a period of time is way different to having casual sex with a very high number of non committed partners.
> 
> Yes there are bad choices. But a person must see it as a bad choice,or else its not a bad choice to them. A person's perception is often their own reality.


I can agree with what you're saying here.. and I would not judge them as a bad person for having many partners in commited relationships... I would judge them as not being a person I'd commit to for life.

Just because they don't see it as bad decision making, doesn't mean it's not a bad decision. They may not view it as a bad decision, but there in lies the problem and the reason I would not commit to such a person. They would continually make bad decisions out of ignorance or because their values are different than mine. 

Reason being, I do not want my sons first nourishment to come from breasts that have already been used by multiple guys, I do not want the legs he hangs on to, while learning to walk to have been opened by many "commited partners." I do not want the lap he learns to read his first words in to be one that was used by many others for their own purposes, and I do not want his first kiss to be from lips that have been around
many "committed **cks.

For me.. It's that simple. When choosing a wife. Her sexual past is very important to me.


----------



## CandieGirl

Entropy3000 said:


> Exactly. So I myself led a certain life style before I was 23. I am sure that I matured in some ways after that.
> 
> So my history is what it is. I am fine with it. But I would not encourage my children or anyone elses children to live their lives that way. I would go on to say then that if I had continued that way after that I would be a completely different person. Not a bad person. But not a very mature one either. So one looking for a partner would have every right to evaluate me on that life style. They may not have wanted me to be their partner because of it. That's ok. Not their fault at all.
> 
> Sexual history tells us about a person. So do so many other things that when put together ... matters. It is part of the whole picture. It should not be held a secret from the person you intend to spend the rest of your life with IMO. Some do not care. That is fine. People pair up for different reasons.
> 
> Sexual history is more than just numbers. As I have said before the types of relationships tell us much. One has to look at the progression of growth in the person. With some people we would see regression and self destruction. How about someone who has sex as a way to get alocohol or drugs? We see that in the non marriage friendly GNO threads.
> 
> But more than numbers how would people feel about someone who while single had affairs with married people? Or that they cheated in more than one relationship. Or that they had been married four times before. Or whether they are capable of having children. If all of their sexual experience comes down to 50+ ONSs that is kinda creepy to me anyway. If out of habit they leave money on the night stand .... If a woman has banged all of her personal trainers over the last ten years that might matter to a new husband. Or most of her bosses or co-workers. Good info to know.
> 
> It feels like folks want to turn sex into just something like getting something to eat. If so why not have very close OSFs after marriage some of which you have sex with? It is just sex after all. As long as they come home to you it could just be good for the marriage. They would be just getting their needs met. Perhaps marriages would be happier. Hey hon I am going out with Lisa for something to eat and then we are going to her place afterwards. Don't wait up. Surely our spouses would not become jealous insecure or controlling. Why should someone change their life just because of a piece of paper. So this is an open marriage. I mean why would getting married take away someones rights to have sex with a lot of people? Why should someone who is used to going backstage and having sex with the band stop this behavior? It's just sex. Sure these are extreme comments but you can see a shift in attitude on the whole topic.
> 
> Can single life be separated from married life? I am sure it can and does happen all the time. But logically to me I would like to see someone practicing monogamous behavior before I would want to marry them. If one intends to have a partner for life you only need to find one of these very rare individuals. If someone is compelled for ten years to seek out some strange multiple times a week why would we expect tgis to bode well all of a sudden. This would be addictive behavior.


Great post, but like everything else, it's riddled with 'ifs'. Someone practicing monogamous behaviour may have dozens of other undesirable issues...also, peoples' definitions of monogamy are different. Get this: I got involved and fell deeply in love with a man (family friend, older) I knew my entire life after he asked me to enter into a 'completely wonderful monogamous relationship" with him. Those were the words he used. I was deeply injured by this man, and will never forgive him because 6 months in, I found out he was still married! How monogamous is that? What about the half dozen emotional affairs he was carrying on behind my back? Not very monogamous. But in HIS mind, he was being faithful to me because he didn't live with the wife anymore and his dallying with these other women was on on the internet/emails/texts...no sex! People have their own personally suited definitions for monogamy half the time, and that's where the problems start.

Outside of TAM and other places like it, there is very little knowledge of EAs; and the world is full of people like the man I described above, who think that it's OK to have inappropriate relations with the opposite sex, when there is no sex...but that's a different story!


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> I really don't feel like I made sexual mistakes.
> 
> I would not be upset if she turned out like me....minus the smoking. Which I'm quitting.


So are you saying that knowing EVERYTHING you went through, if you had an opportunity to go back in time, you would make the EXACT ,SAME SEXUAL CHOICES / PARTNERS you made all over again?


----------



## Created2Write

MrsKy said:


> No implication intended. I did say that I was only talking about *my experience*.
> 
> I *never *wrote that all virgins were like the ones I had met.
> 
> I don't understand the angry posts from women who waited until marriage.


I'm not angry. And I know that experiences often shape our views on certain kinds of people. However, there is a general...feeling in this thread(at least one that I'm sensing) that waiting until marriage is undesirable, or that virgins are more likely to be self-righteous and condescending. I despise this as much as I despise the idea that a woman with more than one sexual partner is automatically inclined to cheat more than others. 

_Both_ are unfair generalizations, and come acorss as being a bit judgmental, even if the posters didn't intend for it to.


----------



## Entropy3000

that_girl said:


> Children are just people. They will grow up, make mistakes, choices, etc...best you can do is educate them.
> 
> My mom didn't educate. She just said NO. Everything was no. Never a WHY...just a no. THAT was lame.


My point is that in choosing a wife many men look for certain qualities and values in a woman. He is looking for a compatible mate. Choosing someone with incompatible values will cause problems in many ways and certainly in the rasing of children. 

Parents influence the sexual attitudes and overall values of their children. I would not want a woman who slept with a large number of men up until I married her to be advising my children on anything. Moreover since it is environment plus heredity combined that matters choice of a partner matters. Just as women choose men for their genes so do some men in their own way. It is more than just physical from my perspective.

Combined with the above the greatest gift parents can give to their children beyond the basics is the example of a loving and caring couple who openly demonstrate their love, respect and fidelity to one another.

So from my perspective a person can choose their partner wisely, be an example to them and educate them. So the first step is in the choosing.

My persepctive is as a man. If I try to give the perspective from a woman's side that would be a projection. I would also get beaten up for telling women what they want.

It does not need to be the choice of lame ... just NO and here are the condoms, don't tell your father but you go girl or you go son. Some mothers befriend their daughters and live vicariously through them. Fathers are notorious for this with their sons. Son here is how you get into her pants. I bet there are people on this forum whose father took them out and got them laid. I am torn on the son here is how you get into her pants as this forum shows most men have no real clue about women from a sexual perspective. But the message sent may not be compatible with some peoples values.


----------



## Thundarr

anonim said:


> You can call BS if you want to but My Opinion is My Opinion.
> 
> It's not about That_Girls posts and Falco's response to it, Its about the question she asked, namely "_And if someone feels attacked, when no one has attacked them, then why do they feel attacked?_"
> 
> If you read a neutral, no person specified post, and take offense and respond as if it were directed at you, then you have projected something into the reading of said post.
> 
> And that's when I non nonchalantly walk over to you and speak into your ear "_...psst...your projection is showing._"


I don't disagree with a think in this statement. You're correct that I think you were trying to "call out" Falcon. I did think that based on the following sequence of events.
- That girl said something.
- Falcon misread.
- That girl took offense and re-explained what she meant.
- Falcon apologized and said he misread her intention.

In "context" of that interaction then most anyone would think your comment was directed at Falcon. Further indication is the use of pronoun "their" and not "our" sounds like your not included in doing this.

So based on my assumption of your intent which I still think was the original intent, I pointed out it sounds like the pot and kettle. Notice I included "us" and not "they" meaning I am fully aware that I can do this too. I'm pretty certain is was not the case this time though.


----------



## Entropy3000

Thundarr said:


> I don't disagree with a think in this statement. You're correct that I think you were trying to "call out" Falcon. I did think that based on the following sequence of events.
> - That girl said something.
> - Falcon misread.
> - That girl took offense and re-explained what she meant.
> - Falcon apologized and said he misread her intention.
> 
> In "context" of that interaction then most anyone would think your comment was directed at Falcon. Further indication is the use of pronoun "their" and not "our" sounds like your not included in doing this.
> 
> So based on my assumption of your intent which I still think was the original intent, I pointed out it sounds like the pot and kettle. Notice I included "us" and not "they" meaning I am fully aware that I can do this too. I'm pretty certain is was not the case this time though.


:smthumbup:

This is an impressive post on many levels including but not limited to logic and use of agile grammer. Bravo!!

I dare say kind sir, spoken like a true gentlemen. My hat is off to you.


----------



## Thundarr

CandieGirl said:


> And when a post is a direct and snarky 'quote', then it's an attack; and when attacked, I counter attack  Passes the time...LOL...


And that leads our thread away from topic if snarky is answered with snarky. It's happened repeatedly on both sides of this debate. Usually lots of volleys back and forth.

I don't see where a misread quote by Falcon followed by an apology for misreading the quote deserves piling any finger pointing comments which I still think anonim's comment was pointing to Falcon.


----------



## CandieGirl

Wasn't referring to anonim; annnnnyyyyywaysssss....

Moving right along...


----------



## Entropy3000

I wonder if snarky behavior is influenced by a persons sexual history ... nevermind that's nuckenfutts.



> Any girl in the world
> could have easily
> known me better
> She said, You're strange,
> but don't change,
> and I let her.


My life was so very different back then. All we can strive for is that we keep more of the good parts than the bad of our past and add mostly positive stuff.

But my attitude was probably age appropriate for the most part. It would have been just sad at 30.

All in all I got a lot of mixed messages from my youth. Strict parochial education which I actually value much today but I wish I had better example form my parents.

I learned two things from my father :

1) Work ethic. How to work very hard for my family. This was mostly good as far as I am concerned. However since my biggest fault I see in my marriage was focusing too much in this area it had a double edge to it.
But mostly good.

2) I realized later he was an alocholic. So I learned to drink and honed those skills in the Navy. His example though taught me to enjoy drinking but to not make it a life style. So he was an example of what not to be here.

This said, I take after my father in many good ways as strange as that sounds. He was a very smart and capable man. But I digress as usual.

I left home at 18 to join the Navy with a bunch of theory about high values but no great example of what a stable loving family could be. I think this is all too common. 

So when I left home I was ill prepared. I was in a candy store. I had morals about me. I did not have sex with married women even if the couple was ok with it. Too creepy for me. 

Ok so please excuse the ego if you can. But at that time while I was certainly not God's gift, I was in real good shape physically. It was not uncommon when I took off my coat that women around me would react in a "whoa" kinda way. I mean they might gasp and verbally go whoa or wow. I was naive and clueless in so many ways. I still am of course. I had a large IQ that would have got me into mensa. So anyway, I did not do a lot of pursuing in those days. I did not know the game. However, surely because of my IQ a number of women felt compelled to have their way with me. This was freaking great ... for a while.

So after a few years of leading this sailor life style I think I started to grow up and find myself. I had spent enough time as Shore Patrol in hooker bars and enough time partying when I started to feel this was not enough. I was looking for more in a woman I would spend my life with. So I was more choosy over time. I think my self esteem increased. I did not need someone who was so easy I guess. I could find a woman who put a premium of who she had sex with. Sure some men look at these women as a conquest, but the thing is that for some of us they just flat have more value. By the time I met my wife I had already been looking for her.

I also want to add that when I was on my first cruise as a single guy my GF broke up with me. That very night I was at a dance club with a buddy in Majorca, where I met Janine from Australia ... she met me in a couple of ports after that. I had been faithful to my GF before this. Anyway, to the real point. On the last day of the cruise I was approcahed by one of the French hookers I had come to know from being Shore Patrol. These ladies followed the Carrier from port to port. I was absolutely against having sex with hookers. It seemed real low value to me. I was pretty down at the time. She offerred me a freebie and I finally after months relented. My wife knew about this. This womans wing woman actually came to the states after the cruise and stayed at my apartment with my roomate for a few weeks. So yeah my roomate had a French hooker as a GF for a while. I found a kind lady to let me stay with her during that time.

In those times I was very discusted with the married men that went with hookers. On the flip side the number of wives at home screwing around was sickening as well.

In no way am I being hypocritical IMO. My wife knows the whole story. My views on sexual history are that one needs to show a maturing process.
The whole picture needs to be viewed and judged on its entirety in context with everythng else about the person.

I was not a bad person at all in my early years. I was a clueless kid.


----------



## Thundarr

that_girl said:


> I really don't feel like I made sexual mistakes.
> 
> I would not be upset if she turned out like me....minus the smoking. Which I'm quitting.


People can't require perfection as none are perfect. I think your history is normal. Few mistakes learned from just like most people.


----------



## Thundarr

that_girl said:


> Children are just people. They will grow up, make mistakes, choices, etc...best you can do is educate them.
> 
> My mom didn't educate. She just said NO. Everything was no. Never a WHY...just a no. THAT was lame.


My parents never said yes or no. Not one darn thing about sex ever. I guess they assumed I wouldn't be stupid and get someone pregnant. Fortunate for me it didn't happen because it could have. 

At least your parents were telling you what they thought they needed to. Sounds like you are doing the same. That's how it should be.


----------



## Created2Write

Caribbean Man said:


> And this is what I have been saying ad nauseam.
> What exactly do we pass on to our children?
> They WILL experiment with sex.
> But do we really want OUR children to make the exact , same mistakes as us?
> 
> Only a fool will answer " yes " to that.


For myself, I would definitely prefer that my children wait until marriage. If not that, I hope that they will save their virginity for someone they truly love and care about, and how truly loves and cares about them as well. Although my husband and I didn't wait until marriage, I can say that I have no qualms about him being my only sexual partner. I revel in that fact, actually. And it's plain that my husband does regret his past sexual flings. It's something he has said that he will discuss with our sons. 

And my husband was a goodboy all throughout his teens, and into early adulthood. He didn't masturbate at all until he was 18 and a girl gave him a handjob. And, technically speaking, I wouldn't have much of an issue if my kids participated in HJ's and OS. It's what kept my husband and I sane until we were engaged. 

I understand that, in this day and age, keeping your virginity until marriage takes a lot of self-control and commitment to beliefs that are probably unpopular to the majority of society. Hell, I was dumped three times because I wasn't willing to "put out". But, in the long run, I can see that those guys weren't so much interested in me as a person, as they were in having sex. Otherwise, they would have stuck around. And, even though I was hurt over those relationships(I was crazy about both guys, even though they had had rather...promiscuous sexual histories), I am gald I valued my virginity as much as I did. I'm glad I waited for the one man who truly deserved the gift I gave him. 

I don't think badly of those who don't wait. (Hell, we didn't) I would prefer, however, for my kids to wait until they know they've found the person they want to marry.


----------



## FalconKing

CandieGirl said:


> :smthumbup:
> 
> This is exaclty the type of antagonistic crap I speak of in my current thread; why even say anything if this is all you can come up with? Honestly, you only succeed in making yourself look even more and more ridiculous.
> 
> Somebody asked: "Why do some feel attacked?". Pointless replies such as the one above are the reason that some people feel attacked. This OP just can't handle the fact that some of us don't agree with him.  Do I agree with SOME aspects of his question on someone's sexual history? Yes. But like anything else, I have a list of what I am willing (and not willing) to put up with. Sex with wh0res is one of those things. It's disgusting. And before you even ask, yes, there is a huge difference between someone who gets paid to screw, and someone who has ONS. But don't ask me about ONS; never had one!


Well to speak in context, your response was to a poster telling him he shouldn't use his qualifying criteria because it can also be used for men as well. First off you are telling him what he shouldn't do. Secondly you are saying it applies to men. He has no interest in dating men so why does that matter? Speaking honestly, yours was the first post saying you find something unfair. So I guess you immediately felt attacked when not one thing about my post was spoken about you. You succeed in making yourself look insecure. How do you rationalize in your reasoning "everyone's picking fights with me."


----------



## CandieGirl

Created2Write said:


> For myself, I would definitely prefer that my children wait until marriage. If not that, I hope that they will save their virginity for someone they truly love and care about, and how truly loves and cares about them as well. Although my husband and I didn't wait until marriage, I can say that I have no qualms about him being my only sexual partner. I revel in that fact, actually. And it's plain that my husband does regret his past sexual flings. It's something he has said that he will discuss with our sons.
> 
> And my husband was a goodboy all throughout his teens, and into early adulthood. He didn't masturbate at all until he was 18 and a girl gave him a handjob. And, technically speaking, I wouldn't have much of an issue if my kids participated in HJ's and OS. It's what kept my husband and I sane until we were engaged.
> 
> I understand that, in this day and age, keeping your virginity until marriage takes a lot of self-control and commitment to beliefs that are probably unpopular to the majority of society. Hell, I was dumped three times because I wasn't willing to "put out". But, in the long run, I can see that those guys weren't so much interested in me as a person, as they were in having sex. Otherwise, they would have stuck around. And, even though I was hurt over those relationships(I was crazy about both guys, even though they had had rather...promiscuous sexual histories), I am gald I valued my virginity as much as I did. I'm glad I waited for the one man who truly deserved the gift I gave him.
> 
> *I don't think badly of those who don't wait. (Hell, we didn't) I would prefer, however, for my kids to wait until they know they've found the person they want to marry.*


I understand your views/preferences. But what happens to those who end up having sex with the man/woman they think they're going to marry, only to have the relationship break down before the marriage takes place? Or what if they don't find that person for 20 years  Oh, in a perfect world we wouldnt' have these problems


----------



## CandieGirl

FalconKing said:


> Well to speak in context, your response was to a poster telling him he shouldn't use his qualifying criteria because it can also be used for men as well. First off you are telling him what he shouldn't do. Secondly you are saying it applies to men. He has no interest in dating men so why does that matter? Speaking honestly, yours was the first post saying you find something unfair. So I guess you immediately you felt attacked and when not one thing about my post was spoken about you. *You succeed in making yourself look insecure.* How do you rationalize in your reasoning "everyone's picking fights with me."


And this is where you CONTINUALLY succeed in making yourself look even worse and worse, everytime you open your mouth (hit the keyboard in this 'context').

Honestly, you're going back hundreds of posts to keep on trying to prove me wrong or catch me up in some type of Fal-Kong mistake, and you're calling ME insecure?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

And to point out the obvious: you posted on the internet, pal. Your post is spoken about me, about yourself, about your old grandma and about anyone else who happens upon it.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## Created2Write

SimplyAmorous said:


> As a parent of the children me & my husband have raised, although I surely don't feel they all will wait till marraige... I do not feel it would be niave of me to believe a couple of them may manage it....because that is what they believe in.
> 
> Our oldest feels strongly about it....and the next son ..he & his GF will have been together for a year next month......they are in Track / Cross country / Band and go to Youth group together, great grades, they both wear their silver ring (because they chose to get them - had nothing to do with me). Our 3rd son did NOT want one.
> 
> I just asked him, while he is getting his breakfast here, if I am niave to believe he will wait until marriage... he always tells me the same thing...this is his Plan...so No... I would not be niave. Of course only TIME will tell this story.
> 
> I talk to him openly about Sex / Touching / all of it....and how me & his dad handled ourselves.... He is very mature for his age... just as his Father was and insists his GF wants to wait also ~ their plan. Her father LOVES my son and encourages their relationship, it's not the norm at all. But it doesn't surprise me either, he has seen his character & he is aware what Most boys are like.
> 
> Neither of them is allowed to be alone in the house...each family includes the other on various outings, trips & all.
> 
> Because me & his dad lasted, how can I say they wouldn't , I know such young love is possible. What we see of how these 2 are when together, the vibe is "lasting" even though I tell both of them -they need to "play the feild" a little just as my Grandmother told me - they look at me like I am nuts...I say College will be the ultimate TEST..... It will be an amazingy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> love story
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IF it lasts.... I've heard other teens/ their friends go on about them.... how good they are together- an example in this day & age, a relationship WITHOUT the drama. It's not the norm in school today by any means.
> 
> Their circumstances are better than ours was...at least my son has a happy home life, and so does his GF. (I didn't).
> 
> I will not think badly if my children engage in sex before they are married...or feel they did anything wrong, it is their life to lead... But yes, They know we frown on it terribly before the age of 18.... it shouldn't be engaged in. Why they are monitored...
> 
> But yet... I just wouldn't be surprised if they follow in our footsteps either....because of how we have raised them ... with a full education ~ choices... not a "Do this or you will go to Hell" thrown at them ~~ There is no fear of Hell in our house - I reject such teachings.... Our children will have a far better advantage over me & their Dad...in such education - No repression in this house...hardly, we are more open than the majority..... But still a little old fashioned too.


I agree with the majority of this, and it is so encouraging to hear of teens and young adults making this decision themselves. 

My parents didn't threaten hell at either my brother or I, but they have been _much_ more lenient with him than they ever were with me.


----------



## FalconKing

CandieGirl said:


> And this is where you CONTINUALLY succeed in making yourself look even worse and worse, everytime you open your mouth (hit the keyboard in this 'context').
> 
> Honestly, you're going back hundreds of posts to keep on trying to prove me wrong or catch me up in some type of Fal-Kong mistake, and you're calling ME insecure?
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> And to point out the obvious: you posted on the internet, pal. Your post is spoken about me, about yourself, about your old grandma and about anyone else who happens upon it.
> 
> :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


That didn't make any sense


----------



## SimplyAmorous

that_girl said:


> And also, SA...I dont' know why you have to make a point to say you wouldn't feel naive. No one was talking about you and what you think/teach/etc with your children. SO you won't feel naive. Fine. That's awesome. but I do.
> 
> I said I WOULD FEEL NAIVE. Me. ONLY ME. MY THOUGHTS ON THIS.
> 
> It's not personal.


Honestly I didn't feel you was talking about me at all....seriously. Hasn't each one of us here bounced things off of anothers post...taken a thought .... then gave our personal experience with it.... many times a different perspective ? This is all I offered. 

I fully realize that reaching 99% of those who grace this thread will AGREE WITH YOU that it is indeed NIAVE to think their childen will wait till marraige for intercourse. I wanted to express why I didn't feel it would be for Me personally. 

The discussion turned to how we raise our childen in regards to sex...I wanted to share -like everyone else is doing here... It was as simple as that. I think others are reading into my intentions now. 

I also did not miss that you said you didn't feel it was Niave if your children wanted to wait themselves and I thought that was great ! :smthumbup: You weren't stepping on choices with your view.


----------



## CandieGirl

No, FK...I'm sure to you, it made absolutely NO sense, of that I'm quite confident! 

LMAO!


----------



## Created2Write

that_girl said:


> Children are just people. They will grow up, make mistakes, choices, etc...best you can do is educate them.
> 
> My mom didn't educate. She just said NO. Everything was no. Never a WHY...just a no. THAT was lame.


This was my experience with the church. My mom never gave much more than that either. Her answer to the "why" was simply, "it's wrong." 

I learned, through my relationship with my husband, _why_ it was good that I waited for him. And he learned, through his relationships with the other girls and then me, why he should have waited for me. And we both wish that we had waited until marriage.


----------



## Created2Write

CandieGirl said:


> I understand your views/preferences. But what happens to those who end up having sex with the man/woman they think they're going to marry, only to have the relationship break down before the marriage takes place? Or what if they don't find that person for 20 years  Oh, in a perfect world we wouldnt' have these problems


A lot of "what if's". The first scenario is exactly why I'm going to encourage waiting until marriage. I would hate for one of children to fall in love, be in a relationship for a few years, get engaged and then decide to have sex...only to see the relationship fall through. Waiting until marriage would ensure that that specific heartache wouldn't happen. 

If they don't find that person until they're in their thirties...so? I see nothing wrong with a man or woman waiting that long to have sex. I think it's rather honorable, actually. If I was single, and met a man who had waited thirty years to have sex, I would be incredibly impressed. I don't think it's weird, or unattractive and I admire the people who wait that long(though they're likely few and far between them.)


----------



## Created2Write

SimplyAmorous said:


> Honestly I didn't feel you was talking about me at all....seriously. Hasn't each one of us here bounced things off of anothers post...taken a thought .... then gave our personal experience with it.... many times a different perspective ? This is all I offered.
> 
> I fully realize that reaching 99% of those who grace this thread will AGREE WITH YOU that it is indeed NIAVE to think their childen will wait till marraige for intercourse. I wanted to express why I didn't feel it would be for Me personally.
> 
> The discussion turned to how we raise our childen in regards to sex...I wanted to share -like everyone else is doing here... It was as simple as that. I think others are reading into my intentions now.
> 
> I also did not miss that you said you didn't feel it was Niave if your children wanted to wait themselves and I thought that was great ! :smthumbup: You weren't stepping on choices with your view.


Yup. Responding to someone's post doesn't mean you thought they were specifically picking on you. You were just responding.


----------



## CandieGirl

Created2Write said:


> Yup. Responding to someone's post doesn't mean you thought they were specifically picking on you. You were just responding.


That's right, this is a public forum after all; says so right at the top of the page.


----------



## Thundarr

CandieGirl said:


> I understand your views/preferences. But what happens to those who end up having sex with the man/woman they think they're going to marry, only to have the relationship break down before the marriage takes place? Or what if they don't find that person for 20 years  Oh, in a perfect world we wouldnt' have these problems


I'd say if it happens 1,2,3 times then it's life. If it happens 10-20 times then it likely correlates to poor decision making or poor judgement. Both of these are qualities we all would like to avoid in a spouse and parent of our children. In short, it's not a big deal unless it keeps repeating.


----------



## Entropy3000

Caribbean Man said:


> And this is what I have been saying ad nauseam.
> What exactly do we pass on to our children?
> They WILL experiment with sex.
> But do we really want OUR children to make the exact , same mistakes as us?
> 
> Only a fool will answer " yes " to that.


I think we can have an influence on our children. At some point or another even if they get off track, the influence can kick in later in life.


----------



## CandieGirl

Thundarr said:


> I'd say if it happens 1,2,3 times then it's life. If it happens 10-20 times then it likely correlates to poor decision making or poor judgement. Both of these are qualities we all would like to avoid in a spouse and parent of our children. In short, it's not a big deal unless it keeps repeating.


At the 10 or 20 times mark, I suppose it's safe to say that the person isn't really looking for marriage. They're playing the field. Nothing wrong with that either, if that's what you want.

Truly, things are different here, where I'm from; not that high a value is placed on marriage. The majority of common-law unions in the country are in this province. Which makes the waiting til marriage to have sex thing kinda difficult.


----------



## Entropy3000

FalconKing said:


> I hear you.
> 
> I just felt like people understood what I was saying but didn't want to admit to it. Or they wanted to exclude certain things that made them defensive.
> 
> The past doesn't matter BUT I would never date anyone who has been with prostitutes...
> 
> The past doesn't matter BUT I would never date a child molester...
> 
> The past doesn't matter BUT I would never date anyone who has slept with 100 women..
> 
> WTF!? Guess what folks? You are saying the past matters.
> 
> My EX-GF had a lot of issues. If I meet someone else with the same kind of issues I would probably not pursue a romantic relationship.
> 
> I personally only feel attacked if there is another [email protected]_cker claiming to be the King of Falcons. If you find such a sucker let me know..


The past does matter to many people. It matters in different ways to different people at different times. That is ok.


----------



## MrsKy

Created2Write said:


> I'm not angry. And I know that experiences often shape our views on certain kinds of people. However, there is a general...feeling in this thread(at least one that I'm sensing) that waiting until marriage is undesirable, or that virgins are more likely to be self-righteous and condescending. I despise this as much as I despise the idea that a woman with more than one sexual partner is automatically inclined to cheat more than others.
> 
> _Both_ are unfair generalizations, and come acorss as being a bit judgmental, even if the posters didn't intend for it to.


Describing an experience is not a generalization. 

If I said "All virgins are (insert adjective here)" that would be generalizing. However, that is not what I wrote. 

If you are noticing a "general feeling" that you don't like, perhaps talking to the specific posters about their words would be helpful. 

Why go after someone who was just talking about what her experience is?

The fact that you were unhappy about my past post shows some insecurity. I did not single out all virgins as bad people, yet you took it that way.


----------



## CandieGirl

Entropy3000 said:


> Too much sexual tension between you two right now ....
> 
> Did I say that? Oooops.


Tsk, tsk, tsk...


----------



## Entropy3000

CandieGirl said:


> Tsk, tsk, tsk...


You saw it before I deleted it ......


----------



## CandieGirl

S'ok. Although I am not sure how FK will take it; he no like me! LMAO! JOKING!


----------



## Thundarr

Entropy3000 said:


> I think we can have an influence on our children. At some point or another even if they get off track, the influence can kick in later in life.


It's a little off topic but.

I've always thought if you do right with your kids (rules, boundaries, respect, and consequences) in their early years then they have a solid foundation to come back to if they rebel like teens all seem to do.

I've seen so many cases where people (family and friends) "get tough" when their kids are in their teens but not until then. Without that foundation, it's an uphill battle. It's at subject I hate to think "I told you so" about. And I have voiced that opinion only to see it unheard and prices paid later on.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

All these men want more sexually virtuous women when they are ready to marry need to stop screwing them all in the interim and making the pool smaller!:what:


----------



## Entropy3000

At the risk of a larger tangent. While I had a parochial education, I was already disillusioned with the hypocracies. This happened when I read books. They were made out of paper back then. Not stone anyway.

My church was known to take a mans wife and throw her into a soldiers brothel as revenge or as leverage against certain men.

So for me I had a Zardoz moment if you will in High School.

So I took what made sense to me as part of a moral code to live by but did not buy into the whole thing.


----------



## Entropy3000

HopelesslyJaded said:


> All these men want more sexually virtuous women when they are ready to marry need to stop screwing them all in the interim and making the pool smaller!:what:


The rich men send the rest into battle ....

I was drunk. These women forced me.

Also we seem to see a number of guys who stay home with the kids and yet complain that their wives are out on the town. 

Yes this works the other way too. Plenty of men out on the town while their wives are at home.


----------



## anonim

Thundarr said:


> I don't disagree with a think in this statement. You're correct that I think you were trying to "call out" Falcon. I did think that based on the following sequence of events.
> - That girl said something.
> - Falcon misread.
> - That girl took offense and re-explained what she meant.
> - Falcon apologized and said he misread her intention.
> 
> In "context" of that interaction then most anyone would think your comment was directed at Falcon. Further indication is the use of pronoun "their" and not "our" sounds like your not included in doing this.
> 
> So based on my assumption of your intent which I still think was the original intent, I pointed out it sounds like the pot and kettle. Notice I included "us" and not "they" meaning I am fully aware that I can do this too. I'm pretty certain is was not the case this time though.


Mine was a general response to the specific question I was replying to. You're reading too far into it.


----------



## anonim

HopelesslyJaded said:


> All these men want more sexually virtuous women when they are ready to marry need to stop screwing them all in the interim and making the pool smaller!:what:


But they dont wanna! Its easier to blame the women!


----------



## CandieGirl

Thundarr said:


> It's a little off topic but.
> 
> *I've always thought if you do right with your kids (rules, boundaries, respect, and consequences) in their early years then they have a solid foundation to come back to if they rebel like teens all seem to do.*
> 
> I've seen so many cases where people (family and friends) "get tough" when their kids are in their teens but not until then. Without that foundation, it's an uphill battle. It's at subject I hate to think "I told you so" about. And I have voiced that opinion only to see it unheard and prices paid later on.


This is true; but even still, my older boys have both turned out so different, despite having the same upbringing, I wonder if I had any impact as a parent at all? Lord knows I tried my best! Create a new thread for this topic


----------



## anonim

Entropy3000 said:


> The rich men send the rest into battle ....
> 
> I was drunk. These women forced me.
> 
> Also we seem to see a number of guys who stay home with the kids and yet complain that their wives are out on the town.
> 
> Yes this works the other way too. Plenty of men out on the town while their wives are at home.


yes it works the other way but on what scale? how many men are out of town leaving spouses at home compared to women???


----------



## Entropy3000

anonim said:


> But they dont wanna! Its easier to blame the women!


If a woman spreads her legs it is the woman's decision.

So yeah it is an easy call.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Entropy3000 said:


> *I wonder if snarky behavior is influenced by a persons sexual history ... *nevermind that's nuckenfutts.


  Another freudian slip?


----------



## Entropy3000

anonim said:


> yes it works the other way but on what scale? how many men are out of town leaving spouses at home compared to women???


What years?

1920s
1930s
1940s
1950s
1960s
1970s
1980s
1990s
2000s
2010s
xxxx

The above is just speculation but all things considered including war time. It would be interesting to know what the truth really was over the years. 

Demographics may very well apply here as well.

What do you think?

It is common in my circles for men being more likely to watch the kids than the the reverse.


----------



## that_girl

Caribbean Man said:


> So are you saying that knowing EVERYTHING you went through, if you had an opportunity to go back in time, you would make the EXACT ,SAME SEXUAL CHOICES / PARTNERS you made all over again?


Yep. Even getting pregnant at 23. Why? Because i love my life. Just the way it is  Sure, I could have more money, could have traveled more...but...the time will come for that. I made choices. I was solid in my choices.


----------



## that_girl

Just curious, but who does it really matter to RIGHT NOW about their spouse's past?

I don't.

lol Yet people are at the throat about this! Ugh. I need some tea.


----------



## CandieGirl

No because it isn't affecting us RIGHT NOW!


----------



## Caribbean Man

Entropy3000 said:


> If a women spreads her legs it the woman's decision.


:iagree:

Sometimes I wonder if the days when a woman would simply say no are gone.
All I see now is a lot of blame shifting.

Some now want men to be responsible for women's sexual behaviour.
EVERYBODY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR BEHAVIOUR.

There are sound cultural reasons behind the laws governing sexual harassment , rape and incest.
More weight is given to the woman's testimony because of this reason.

It is because men have traditionally been the aggressors. Men have been known to ask,propose ,seduce , beg ,grovel, bargain for sex.
Women's part is just to say yes or no.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

CandieGirl said:


> This is true; but even still, my older boys have both turned out so different, despite having the same upbringing, I wonder if I had any impact as a parent at all? Lord knows I tried my best! Create a new thread for this topic


How about this, my oldest was always a Breeze to raise, never caught him in a lie...no drugs, no booze, helps people, never had a problem with him, He is a Worship Leader, wanna be Youth Pastor....

Our youngest son....just started Kidnergarten, he got Detention a few days ago, who gets Detention in Kidnergarten [email protected]#$%^.... less than 3 weeks after school started. Had to stay with the Principal after school, some scuffle about basketball on the Playground & he hauled off & hit this kid in the face. 

Yeah....kids can be night & day. My husband tells me this one has my genes. I was never in a physical fight though. Just a little mouthy in my youth, this one speaks his mind a little too freely, might be cute now, but it won't be. 

This is our little Damien. It is paramount he goes in a good way -with the temperment he was born with.


----------



## Entropy3000

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Sometimes I wonder if the days when a woman would simply say no are gone.
> All I see now is a lot of blame shifting.
> 
> Some now want men to be responsible for women's sexual behaviour.
> EVERYBODY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR BEHAVIOUR.
> 
> There are sound cultural reasons behind the laws governing sexual harassment , rape and incest.
> More weight is given to the woman's testimony because of this reasons.
> 
> It is because men have traditionally been the aggressors. Men have been known to ask,propose ,seduce , beg ,grovel, bargain for sex.
> Women's part is just to say yes or no.


And indeed an average woman if just looking for sex can find it every day. Per the stories on here they are barraged by men hitting on them at starbucks, the grocery store and church.

With freedoms comes responsibility for oneself.

Maybe a guy does not want that woman who slept with all those men. Why should a guy who has not done that accept it. 

This feels like that whole Alpha and Beta discussion.
You know where some say many women go for the bad boys for their fun and then want to settle down with a Beta guy.

So how is telling that Beta guy that it was the bad boys fault their future wife slept around and he should accept that, shutup, get in the kitchen and make her a pie for when she gets home from her date. Guys need to get over this. Women want to be able to be free to have all the sex they want and for men to accept it and to not ask. Don't ask don't tell I guess.
Moreover they need to be able to maintain their OSFs into the marriage and hangout with those men. And yes, there are men who play this game too. Those men are @$$holes.

Oh maybe that was a bridge too far. But this seems to be part of that same argument.

But indeed if a woman has many partners AND has a number of close opposite sex friends the future husband has more to deal with for sure.
If she will not tell him who she slept with then this is a HUGE problem. 
Why should she give up her friends? How many guys find out the hard way that that male friend was an ex lover?

Look, if a woman has slept with 7 guys who she can name and elaborate about this is IMO much better to deal with than a woman who lost count years ago has no idea who half of the guys were, has some mixture of ex lovers and close guy friends now and wants them in her life after marriage but she is tired of giving out so many BJs as she now has TMJ then which one bodes better? Sure the former may turn out to be a nightmare, but the latter is a nightmare right now.


----------



## Thundarr

that_girl said:


> Yep. Even getting pregnant at 23. Why? Because i love my life. Just the way it is  Sure, I could have more money, could have traveled more...but...the time will come for that. I made choices. I was solid in my choices.


I get that you see past choices as having shaped who you are and you are at peace with those choices and like who you've become.

Surely though we all have some bad choices with no positive impact that it would have be preferred to avoid all together. Drug use for example is something many don't do because we learn from other people's mistakes. I guess the line to draw is if we think our kids can only learn some things by making bad choices versus if we think our children can learn certain lessons just from listening to mom or dad and respecting our judgement.

I get your point but ONS for example is something I definitely preached was a bad thing to my boys. They were good looking kids and opportunity surely is there.


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> Yep. Even getting pregnant at 23. Why? Because i love my life. Just the way it is  Sure, I could have more money, could have traveled more...but...the time will come for that. I made choices. I was solid in my choices.


Well there are lots of things I did in my life that if I had the chance to go back and change,
I DEFINITELY WILL.
That's what defines me now from my past mistakes,and tells me how much I've grown.
Just sayin'


----------



## Thundarr

that_girl said:


> Just curious, but who does it really matter to RIGHT NOW about their spouse's past?
> 
> I don't.
> 
> lol Yet people are at the throat about this! Ugh. I need some tea.


Very true. It matter zero now to me. It only mattered to me when we were making those steps toward becoming something special. Clint said "man's gotta know his limitations". I know I can't predict the future and I can't read minds so I was using the what ever I had. We are pattern finding creatures after all.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> I get that you see past choices as having shaped who you are and you are at peace with those choices and like who you've become.
> 
> Surely though we all have some bad choices with no positive impact that it would have be preferred to avoid all together. Drug use for example is something many don't do because we learn from other people's mistakes. I guess the line to draw is if we think our kids can only learn some things by making bad choices versus if we think our children can learn certain lessons just from listening to mom or dad and respecting our judgement.
> 
> *I get your point but ONS for example is something I definitely preached was a bad thing to my boys. They were good looking kids and opportunity surely is there.*


I tell my 17 yr old nephew who grew up under my charge that having sex with as much women as possible does not define him as a man.

What defines him as a man is 
1]The choices he makes
2] Accepting responsibility for those choices.


----------



## CandieGirl

Entropy3000 said:


> And indeed an average woman if just looking for sex can find it every day. Per the stories on here *they are barraged by men hitting on them at starbucks, the grocery store and church.*
> With freedoms comes responsibility for oneself.


I'm sorry, but that's just not true...getting whistled at or having eyes raked over you does not necessarily equate a chance to have sex...But I suppose if it did, I'd be one busy girl if I chose that route 

I consider myself better than average looking on a good day, and I have never had to battle off the advances men wanting to have sex with me! 

It's just not realistic to say that women can have sex anytime they want it. Some of them even have to beg for it (at times) with their own husbands!


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

Entropy3000 said:


> If a woman spreads her legs it is the woman's decision.
> 
> So yeah it is an easy call.


Seriously...wtf..officially removing myself from this thread.


----------



## CandieGirl

Thundarr said:


> Very true. It matter zero now to me. *It only mattered to me when we were making those steps toward becoming something special. * Clint said "man's gotta know his limitations". I know I can't predict the future and I can't read minds so I was using the what ever I had. We are pattern finding creatures after all.


Good to hear...not sure if it was you and I won't go sifting back through your posts, but didn't you say your wife was with about 20ish guys before marriage? If that didn't bother you enough then, it shouldn't bother you at all now.

And if this was not you, no disrespect at all intended, and my error...!


----------



## Thundarr

SimplyAmorous said:


> How about this, my oldest was always a Breeze to raise, never caught him in a lie...no drugs, no booze, helps people, never had a problem with him, He is a Worship Leader, wanna be Youth Pastor....
> 
> Our youngest son....just started Kidnergarten, he got Detention a few days ago, who gets Detention in Kidnergarten [email protected]#$%^.... less than 3 weeks after school started. Had to stay with the Principal after school, some scuffle about basketball on the Playground & he hauled off & hit this kid in the face.
> 
> Yeah....kids can be night & day. My husband tells me this one has my genes. I was never in a physical fight though. Just a little mouthy in my youth, this one speaks his mind a little too freely, might be cute now, but it won't be.
> 
> This is our little Damien. It is paramount he goes in a good way -with the temperment he was born with.


They are certainly different. All of them. There are still a few capital offenses with any of them though that will help later on like respect for parents and authority and like having consistent consequences when these fundamental rules are deviated from. Odds are if you set them up for success then most will succeed. Set them up for failure and the opposite is true.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> *Very true. It matter zero now to me.* It only mattered to me when we were making those steps toward becoming something special. Clint said "man's gotta know his limitations". I know I can't predict the future and I can't read minds so I was using the what ever I had. We are pattern finding creatures after all.


now/nou/
Adverb:	
At the present time or moment: "where are you living now"

Just thought I would look up the meaning of the word " now " to give some clarity to Thundar's post.


----------



## Thundarr

CandieGirl said:


> I'm sorry, but that's just not true...getting whistled at or having eyes raked over you does not necessarily equate a chance to have sex...But I suppose if it did, I'd be one busy girl if I chose that route
> 
> I consider myself better than average looking on a good day, and I have never had to battle off the advances men wanting to have sex with me!
> 
> It's just not realistic to say that women can have sex anytime they want it. Some of them even have to beg for it (at times) with their own husbands!


If 90% of men say flirting with you means they would like to have sex with you then why would not not believe what men say about what men want. There have been a few threads on TAM with this type of subject in mind and it's a pile on fest. Almost all men would agree.


----------



## Thundarr

CandieGirl said:


> Good to hear...not sure if it was you and I won't go sifting back through your posts, but didn't you say your wife was with about 20ish guys before marriage? If that didn't bother you enough then, it shouldn't bother you at all now.
> 
> And if this was not you, no disrespect at all intended, and my error...!


It was me. This is not really bothering me. It's just my opinion that it mattered and also my opinion that is should have mattered. I'm not trying to say people who have already made the choice to be serious should go back and drudge it up now. No the time for that was when making the choice.

Personally I think the fact that it mattered to me then and yet we still became more gives me pride that I kept in in perspective. But the subject of this thread is whether is matters or not and I think it does.


----------



## Created2Write

MrsKy said:


> Describing an experience is not a generalization.
> 
> If I said "All virgins are (insert adjective here)" that would be generalizing. However, that is not what I wrote.


You're right, it wasn't what you wrote. "Generalization" was bad word choice, but I couldn't think of anything else that described the tone I felt throughout the thread. 



> If you are noticing a "general feeling" that you don't like, perhaps talking to the specific posters about their words would be helpful.


That's kind of what I've been doing...And the "feeling" _has_ been quite clear. Some have said that they wouldn't date a man who was a virgin if he was in his thirties; this is would be weird. Some have said that they would never date a woman who was a virgin. Some have said that they believe it's naive to think our children will wait until marriage to have sex. Some have said that they would rather their children experiment with sex, and not wait until marriage. And some have made negative remarks about virgins.

Yeah, that irks me. But it also irked others when they felt as if women who had more than one sexual partner were being portrayed as cheaters, that they didn't know how to value sex in a committed relationship, etc. It was okay for _those_ women to get upset at the OP and a few other posters for their perceptions of what was being said in the thread. 



> Why go after someone who was just talking about what her experience is?


I didn't "go after you". I quoted your post, and responded my opinions and feelings. Nothing more.



> The fact that you were unhappy about my past post shows some insecurity. I did not single out all virgins as bad people, yet you took it that way.


I didn't take it that you were singling out anybody. Your post was one of quite a few that portrayed virgins negatively, and as someone who valued my virginity very highly as a teen and young adult, the tone of those posts saddened me. I'm not insecure at all. I'm not angry, I'm not offended. 

If a woman who has had more than one sexual partner is a bit peeved by, say, some statistics that are posted which says that women who have more than one sexual partner are more prone to cheating, does it mean she's insecure? Not necessarily. She knows who she is, and she knows that she would never cheat. Yet the statistic makes it seem like her cheating is inevitable, based on nothing more than supposed "statistics" without any inquiring into who she is, etc. She has a right to be upset at the implications in that statistic, even though nothing about _her specifically_ is mentioned.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Entropy3000 said:


> Look, if a woman has slept with 7 guys who she can name and elaborate about this is IMO much better to deal with than a woman who lost count years ago has no idea who half of the guys were, has some mixture of ex lovers and close guy friends now and wants them in her life after marriage but she is tired of giving out so many BJs as she now has TMJ then which one bodes better? *Sure the former may turn out to be a nightmare, but the latter is a nightmare right now.*


And therin lies the rub.
Who in their right mind, man or woman would want to marry a CLEAR & PRESENT DANGER?

Its basically the same as a woman marrying a nice guy who turns out to be a pedophile later on. Or ,that same woman noticing certain traits of that same man before marriage, realizes that he has pedophillic tendencies , and she thinks that she must make a decision.

The former is a nightmare,
The latter is a CLEAR & PRESENT DANGER.


----------



## CandieGirl

Thundarr said:


> If 90% of men say flirting with you means they would like to have sex with you then why would not not believe what men say about what men want. There have been a few threads on TAM with this type of subject in mind and it's a pile on fest. Almost all men would agree.


I'm sure! I'm just thinking of an old boyfriend I had, who used to argue about this with me all the time . At the time, what did it matter? I was having sex with HIM! :lol:


----------



## Entropy3000

CandieGirl said:


> I'm sorry, but that's just not true...getting whistled at or having eyes raked over you does not necessarily equate a chance to have sex...But I suppose if it did, I'd be one busy girl if I chose that route
> 
> I consider myself better than average looking on a good day, and I have never had to battle off the advances men wanting to have sex with me!
> 
> It's just not realistic to say that women can have sex anytime they want it. Some of them even have to beg for it (at times) with their own husbands!


I confess I am not sure when I am joking or serious much of the time.  Or just exaggerating.

Trust me dear lady some good number of those guys would consider it at the least. Now they may be happily married men and not be looking to hook up but the key to this is in your choosing perhaps.

A wife having to beg for sex just seems to be for me in some other universe or space time continuum. A rip in its very fabric. But I have not doubt this is true.

This is akin to the thought that many of us believe that a woman who has say 20 male friends who she considers just friends could offer sex to those 20 and most if not all would oblige. Nothing is grarauteed of course but realisitcally it is the womans decision.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Thundarr said:


> They are certainly different. All of them. There are still a few capital offenses with any of them though that will help later on like respect for parents and authority and like having consistent consequences when these fundamental rules are deviated from. Odds are if you set them up for success then most will succeed. Set them up for failure and the opposite is true.


And I am so very aware, having 6 very different personalities- with different love languages in toe as well. I enjoy the challenge of being a parent . We are very big on communication , exploring all sides to an issue...always hearing them out ....then they listen to us...we want them to be aware of all possible outcomes, and yes... consequences to every chosen action.....HUGE. 

Had to sit the little one down on Tuesday ....but we made sure to tell him we loved him, he did a BAD thing, but he was not a bad boy. He just needs to work on calming that little temper of his.


----------



## Entropy3000

HopelesslyJaded said:


> Seriously...wtf..officially removing myself from this thread.


My response was to another poster. I reread his post and my repsonse. We all make our own decisions. We cannot blame men for what women choose to do.
Nor can we blame women for what men do.

So more general we are responsible for our own actions.

My comment was not intended to insult you in any way.


----------



## Created2Write

Entropy3000 said:


> My response was to another poster. I reread his post and my repsonse. We all make our own decisions. We cannot blame men for what women choose to do.
> Nor can we blame women for what men do.
> 
> So more general we are responsible for our own actions.


This is what I understood from your post as well.


----------



## Entropy3000

Created2Write said:


> This is what I understood from your post as well.


Thank you. But it is possible my comment was more crude than it could have been.


----------



## Created2Write

Entropy3000 said:


> Thank you. But it is possible my comment was more crude than it could have been.


I didn't think it was crude. Blunt maybe, but not crude in my opinion. And I also think your post was misunderstood. At any rate, I just wanted to let you know that I got the meaning you intended to portray.


----------



## that_girl

:rofl: I said NO way more than I said YES! 

dear god.


----------



## that_girl

Caribbean Man said:


> Well there are lots of things I did in my life that if I had the chance to go back and change,
> I DEFINITELY WILL.
> That's what defines me now from my past mistakes,and tells me how much I've grown.
> Just sayin'


Well, then that's good for you.

I made choices that were good for me at the time. I don't harp on the past. I just move forward.


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> :rofl: I said NO way more than I said YES!
> 
> dear god.


 Me too,
I said NO way more than I said YES!

But the questions were different.


----------



## that_girl

I don't understand why you are offended that I wouldn't change my past. Your "just sayin'" remark was kinda rude. I don't care what you do in your life. I like mine and my decisions.


----------



## Created2Write

I don't think he really cares what you do/have done either. He's just trying to make a point. I'm sure he would say that you're free to disagree with him, just as he is free to make his point. 

Seriously. I don't think that most things in this thread were meant to be as personal as a lot of people are taking it.


----------



## FalconKing

Created2Write said:


> Seriously. I don't think that most things in this thread were meant to be as personal as a lot of people are taking it.


Kind of a running joke.


----------



## that_girl

lol Just sayin'

:rofl: I love opinions. I just don't know the tone. Guess it doesn't matter. I've been smiling the whole time. Good people in this forum. Srsly


----------



## IndieWifey

I still say it matters, but i attach more to sex and intimacy then more people and someone on that level would make a good mate for me. I don't judge people who have had a large number of partners, its just not for me and someone like that wouldn't be. Its really about making a good match.


----------



## anonim

Entropy3000 said:


> If a woman spreads her legs it is the woman's decision.
> 
> So yeah it is an easy call.


but its also a mans decision to put a penis betwixt those spread legs, so lets compromise and call it 50/50?


----------



## anonim

Entropy3000 said:


> What years?
> 
> 1920s
> 1930s
> 1940s
> 1950s
> 1960s
> 1970s
> 1980s
> 1990s
> 2000s
> 2010s
> xxxx
> 
> The above is just speculation but all things considered including war time. It would be interesting to know what the truth really was over the years.
> 
> Demographics may very well apply here as well.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> It is common in my circles for men being more likely to watch the kids than the the reverse.


I suspect the # of SAHM's greatly out number the SAHD's but it woud be interesting to see how the differential changed over the decades.

What circles do you traverse that SAHD's outnumber SAHM's?




Entropy3000 said:


> And indeed an average woman if just looking for sex can find it every day. *And who is she gonna find it with? an average man maybe? hmmm...* Per the stories on here they are barraged by men hitting on them at starbucks, the grocery store and church.
> 
> With freedoms comes responsibility for oneself. *Do you refer to freedoms of men or of women? and which freedoms?*
> 
> Maybe a guy does not want that woman who slept with all those men. Why should a guy who has not done that accept it. *You speak as though men are obligated to accept that from women. We arent. But it doesnt give us the right to judge either. Pick the qualities you want in a woman and find that woman. Leave the rest alone. *
> 
> This feels like that whole Alpha and Beta discussion.
> You know where some say many women go for the bad boys for their fun and then want to settle down with a Beta guy.
> 
> *Who do you relate/identify more strongly with, the alpha or beta?*
> 
> So how is telling that Beta guy that it was the bad boys fault their future wife slept around and he should accept that, shutup, get in the kitchen and make her a pie for when she gets home from her date. Guys need to get over this. Women want to be able to be free to have all the sex they want and for men to accept it and to not ask. Don't ask don't tell I guess.
> Moreover they need to be able to maintain their OSFs into the marriage and hangout with those men. And yes, there are men who play this game too. Those men are @$$holes.
> 
> *Then its not an "alpha/beta or a man/woman problem, it's a People Problem,  and you should frame it as such because you come off sounding misogynistic. The story you paint in this paragraph has less to do with a persons sexual history and more to do with a persons present lack of respect or morals. Which are two different issues. One of which isnt really an issue, unless you want it to be.*
> 
> Oh maybe that was a bridge too far. But this seems to be part of that same argument.
> 
> But indeed if a woman has many partners AND has a number of close opposite sex friends the future husband has more to deal with for sure.
> If she will not tell him who she slept with then this is a HUGE problem.
> Why should she give up her friends? How many guys find out the hard way that that male friend was an ex lover?
> 
> Look, if a woman has slept with 7 guys who she can name and elaborate about this is IMO much better to deal with than a woman who lost count years ago has no idea who half of the guys were, has some mixture of ex lovers and close guy friends now and wants them in her life after marriage but she is tired of giving out so many BJs as she now has TMJ then which one bodes better? Sure the former may turn out to be a nightmare, but the latter is a nightmare right now.


why do you equivocate someone having past partners with keeping ex lovers around while married? I thought Sexual history was up for question here, not morals. Which are not the same thing.


----------



## anonim

HopelesslyJaded said:


> All these men want more sexually virtuous women when they are ready to marry need to stop screwing them all in the interim and making the pool smaller!:what:


:iagree:
I wish I could like this a million times!


----------



## anonim

Entropy3000 said:


> My response was to another poster. I reread his post and my repsonse. We all make our own decisions. We cannot blame men for what women choose to do.
> Nor can we blame women for what men do.
> 
> So more general we are responsible for our own actions.
> 
> My comment was not intended to insult you in any way.


Yeah but it was way crass :scratchhead:


----------



## anonim

Created2Write said:


> Seriously. I don't think that most things in this thread were meant to be as personal as a lot of people are taking it.


Generalizing a group of people based on ones experience with a single person, will justifiably irritate said group. For example if you go to the Original Post and change the topic of 'sexual history,' to 'Race,' wouldn't you consider that person a bigot?

Try it out and see.


----------



## Entropy3000

anonim said:


> Yeah but it was way crass :scratchhead:


You knew darn well what you were saying. You were just trying to cause issues IMO for your own amusement at others expense. I honestly have no idea what your agenda is beyond this so I am adding you to my ignore list finally. You just are not a value add for me personally so I will do you a big favor here by doing this. Good luck.


----------



## Thundarr

anonim said:


> Generalizing a group of people based on ones experience with a single person, will justifiably irritate said group. For example if you go to the Original Post and change the topic of 'sexual history,' to 'Race,' wouldn't you consider that person a bigot?
> 
> Try it out and see.


Firstly. Sexual history is choice and if it's not then it's not in context with original post or with comments by posters. Race is not a choice obviously.

Secondly plenty of people prefer partners of their own race which is fine. Others don't care about it which is fine too.


----------



## anonim

Thundarr said:


> Firstly. Sexual history is choice and if it's not then it's not in context with original post or with comments by posters. Race is not a choice obviously.
> 
> Secondly plenty of people prefer partners of their own race which is fine. Others don't care about it which is fine too.


My point is that if you can change the subject of the topic - and re read it - and it sounds bigoted - it was in the 1st place.

Some people think its not bigotry if its directed against women, or if double standards are held against women - im saying it is.


----------



## anonim

Entropy3000 said:


> You knew darn well what you were saying. You were just trying to cause issues IMO for your own amusement at others expense. I honestly have no idea what your agenda is beyond this so I am adding you to my ignore list finally. You just are not a value add for me personally so I will do you a big favor here by doing this. Good luck.


You're not doing me a favor ^^

My agenda is calling out gender bigotry as and when I see it.


----------



## Thundarr

anonim said:


> My point is that if you can change the subject of the topic - and re read it - and it sounds bigoted - it was in the 1st place.
> 
> Some people think its not bigotry if its directed against women, or if double standards are held against women - im saying it is.


The first post is a guy saying he thinks someone's sexual past says something about the person. He specifically said "person" and not "woman" in the post "Somebody's past says a lot about a person". He's a hetro guy so he's talking about a hetro woman. It's seems that simple.

If you change an apple to an orange then it becomes an orange. Apple in this case being something people do (lots of sex) and orange being something people are (race).

Point #1 that the original post is bigoted. 
- I don't think so at all.
Point #2 that some in this thread think the double standard is fine and you disagree.
- True.


----------



## FalconKing

anonim said:


> You're not doing me a favor ^^
> 
> My agenda is calling out gender bigotry as and when I see it.


I am a straight male and I am talking about a straight woman. The first post says "someones" sexual history. That means anybody. I know you know that. Or maybe you don't. There have been things you have asked or tried to address that have already been addressed. So that's why I am constantly questioning whether or not you read anything. You even tried to claim that I should have made the thread non-gender specific. What if anything in my first post says I did the opposite. Even the title of the thread says "a persons" sexual history. So some of the things you are complaining about don't even apply to me. But you are not going to apologize for it. Some of the comments you made can be deemed offensive but you are not going to apologize for that either. Nobody is going to apologize to you. And if they did you would try to find another point to make. it doesn't matter when somebody shows you if your argument is weak or irrelevant. 

You have this bullheaded agenda and you directed it at my thread. Why don't you make your own thread and talk about sexual abuse, how most issues in the relationship seem to be mens fault or how women are victimized. If these topics seem too general to you, well these are the stances you've taken when nobody was ever saying the opposite. And when they did, it was only to counter you already bringing these things up. Like i said. Nobody is going to agree with you because your point keeps changing. What do you want? Where's the bigotry. When did I single out women? By saying I date them? How did you connect those things in your mind to come that reasoning?


----------



## Caribbean Man

Finally.
Guess he thought he was dealing with........
Never mind.
He met his match!

I believe whenever someone wants a serious debate they must come with honest,legitimate arguments and present them coherently.
Obfuscation and transmogrification are not the marks of a skilled debater.
Real men know exactly how to present an opinion,stand by it without the " fancy footworks " and asinine fatuity.


----------



## MrsKy

I would like to add that real men do not live by double standards. They are too honest and intelligent for that nonsense.

Think about it. A man with integrity can never look at a woman and say "It was fine for me to sleep around, but you cannot do the same or else I won't want to be with you."

My younger brother always says: "I don't care if a woman I am interested in has slept around. After all, I was a s!ut too." 

We all have the right to look for what we want in a partner. I just think it is ridiculous to apply different standards than the ones we live by.


----------



## Caribbean Man

MrsKy said:


> I would like to add that real men do not live by double standards. They are too honest and intelligent for that nonsense.
> 
> Think about it. A man with integrity can never look at a woman and say "It was fine for me to sleep around, but you cannot do the same or else I won't want to be with you."
> 
> My younger brother always says: "I don't care if a woman I am interested in has slept around. After all, I was a s!ut too."
> 
> We all have the right to look for what we want in a partner. I just think it is ridiculous to apply different standards than the ones we live by.


Funny how this " double standard" only works one way.
Against men.
When the female who has slept around with all the Alphas suddenly realizes that her biological clock is ticking ,and none of her Alpha partners are interested.
She then looks for a beta " nice guy" to marry.
When she was " exploring her sexuality " on the Alpha [email protected] carousel ,she would NEVER give Mr. "nice guy " beta a snowball's chance in hell to even kiss her feet,but now she wants to marry him, [ he was always " plan B" ] and tell him that her number doesn't count.

But I guess that's not a double standard,its her RIGHT!


The world is full of double standards.

"...The rules of fair play do not apply in love and war..."
John Lyly

All is fair in LOVE & WAR.


----------



## anonim

Thundarr said:


> The first post is a guy saying he thinks someone's sexual past says something about the person. He specifically said "person" and not "woman" in the post "Somebody's past says a lot about a person". He's a hetro guy so he's talking about a hetro woman. It's seems that simple.


I agree it is simple. but even simple things can be framed and interpreted in a lot of different different ways.

A persons sexual history is a symptom, not a cause. In the OP, the womans behaviors of lying are far more important than who she had sex with. Its a better indicator and holds more weight. Period.



Thundarr said:


> If you change an apple to an orange then it becomes an orange. Apple in this case being something people do (lots of sex) and orange being something people are (race).
> 
> Point #1 that the original post is bigoted.
> - I don't think so at all.
> Point #2 that some in this thread think the double standard is fine and you disagree.
> - True.


"Apple in this case being something people do (lots of sex) and orange being something people are (race)."

people (here) dont denigrate oranges because an orange cant help but to be an orange right? why say its not ok to be an apple because I dont like apples? If you eat a granny smith apple and find it was diseased, it doesnt mean that all granny smith apples are crap, it doesnt mean that all apples are crap, it just means you need to look out that the food you eat isnt bad , *AND DONT KEEP TAKING BITES OF THE BAD APPLE, TRYING TO REASSURE YOURSELF THAT IT ISNT BAD. Its a bad apple.*

People usually think double standards are ok when they benefit from them, often at other peoples expense and often make excuses or rationalizations for maintaining the status quo.


----------



## anonim

Caribbean Man said:


> Finally.
> Guess he thought he was dealing with........
> Never mind.
> He met his match!
> 
> I believe whenever someone wants a serious debate they must come with honest,legitimate arguments and present them coherently.
> Obfuscation and transmogrification are not the marks of a skilled debater.
> Real men know exactly how to present an opinion,stand by it without the " fancy footworks " and asinine fatuity.


Real men talk directly to those they face, and dont prop themselves up with hypocrisy.


----------



## Thundarr

MrsKy said:


> I would like to add that real men do not live by double standards. They are too honest and intelligent for that nonsense.
> 
> Think about it. A man with integrity can never look at a woman and say "It was fine for me to sleep around, but you cannot do the same or else I won't want to be with you."
> 
> My younger brother always says: "I don't care if a woman I am interested in has slept around. After all, I was a s!ut too."
> 
> We all have the right to look for what we want in a partner. I just think it is ridiculous to apply different standards than the ones we live by.


Your assumption seems to be that men alone create the double standard. That's not true. It could just as easily be said that real women hold their man to the same standards he holds here. Women are responsible for their own vetting process for a mate and they do indeed evaluate us. 

Many women don't care so much about sexual past. So what.
Many men don't care about if a women can be a provider. So what.

Where are the "your a hypocrite for expecting me to be a provider but not being one yourself crowd"? There isn't one because we know it's a double standard and we're fine with it.

Where's the "women should hold us accountable too" crowd? There right here but no one wants to own up to being the other half of the problem. Seriously man's nature is not going to change so simply hold us to the same standard of the women we prefer.


----------



## anonim

Caribbean Man said:


> Funny how this " double standard" only works one way.
> Against men.
> When the female who has slept around with all the Alphas suddenly realizes that her biological clock is ticking ,and none of her Alpha partners are interested.
> She then looks for a beta " nice guy" to marry.
> When she was " exploring her sexuality " on the Alpha [email protected] carousel ,she would NEVER give Mr. "nice guy " beta a snowball's chance in hell to even kiss her feet,but now she wants to marry him, [ he was always " plan B" ] and tell him that her number doesn't count.
> 
> But I guess that's not a double standard,its her RIGHT!
> 
> 
> The world is full of double standards.
> 
> "...The rules of fair play do not apply in love and war..."
> John Lyly
> 
> All is fair in LOVE & WAR.


You should write for the PUA

EDIT: also, regarding the world being full of double standards - its also full of thieves and murderers but what does it make me if I pay homage to them?


----------



## Thundarr

anonim said:


> I agree it is simple. but even simple things can be framed and interpreted in a lot of different different ways.
> 
> A persons sexual history is a symptom, not a cause. In the OP, the womans behaviors of lying are far more important than who she had sex with. Its a better indicator and holds more weight. Period.


Sometimes their sexual history is a symptom of things like abuse and esteem so I agree with you there. Some times it's not though so that's why It's important to know about it and figure out the cause.

I also agree that lying and cheating are the high priority problems as well.


----------



## Thundarr

anonim said:


> people (here) dont denigrate oranges because an orange cant help but to be an orange right? why say its not ok to be an apple because I dont like apples? If you eat a granny smith apple and find it was diseased, it doesnt mean that all granny smith apples are crap, it doesnt mean that all apples are crap, it just means you need to look out that the food you eat isnt bad , *AND DONT KEEP TAKING BITES OF THE BAD APPLE, TRYING TO REASSURE YOURSELF THAT IT ISNT BAD. Its a bad apple.*
> 
> People usually think double standards are ok when they benefit from them, often at other peoples expense and often make excuses or rationalizations for maintaining the status quo.


Here again, I think a lot of guys miss out on some of the best women out there because they do not look past the history to see either what caused it or what was learned from it. I don't think you and I are very different in what we've done.

What I add to that though is that knowing about that past is needed in order to be able to make any determination about cause or how it shaped out partner. I really don't know why women don't want to know the previous actions of us. It makes no sense to be that I get a free pass. I don't want one.


----------



## anonim

Thundarr said:


> Your assumption seems to be that men alone create the double standard. That's not true. It could just as easily be said that real women hold their man to the same standards he holds here. Women are responsible for their own vetting process for a mate and they do indeed evaluate us.
> 
> Many women don't care so much about sexual past. So what.
> Many men don't care about if a women can be a provider. So what.
> 
> Where are the "your a hypocrite for expecting me to be a provider but not being one yourself crowd"? There isn't one because we know it's a double standard and we're fine with it.
> 
> Where's the "women should hold us accountable too" crowd? There right here but no one wants to own up to being the other half of the problem. Seriously man's nature is not going to change so simply hold us to the same standard of the women we prefer.


I dont see that shes making that assumption that men are creating the double standard..

And the women are probably afraid to speak up for being shamed that they've had sex before.

Seriously , there are no women (or men) here saying that women shouldnt have to be providers or at the least, self sufficient. That's why there is no argument against it. To me its obvious, but simple things can be perceived differently by different people.

But there ARE men here saying, implying and reinforcing that women should be held to higher sexual standards then they hold theirselves, and that women are 'less value' for it (as opposed to saying 'I wouldnt date that woman') so thats why you will have people railing against that double standard.


----------



## anonim

Thundarr said:


> Here again, I think a lot of guys miss out on some of the best women out there because they do not look past the history to see either what caused it or what was learned from it. I don't think you and I are very different in what we've done.
> 
> What I add to that though is that knowing about that past is needed in order to be able to make any determination about cause or how it shaped out partner. *I think this is intergral to a full relationship with someone.* I really don't know why women don't want to know the previous actions of us. *You mean 'People' not 'women.'* It makes no sense to be that I get a free pass. I don't want one.


----------



## MrsKy

Caribbean Man said:


> Funny how this " double standard" only works one way.
> Against men.
> When the female who has slept around with all the Alphas suddenly realizes that her biological clock is ticking ,and none of her Alpha partners are interested.
> She then looks for a beta " nice guy" to marry.
> When she was " exploring her sexuality " on the Alpha [email protected] carousel ,she would NEVER give Mr. "nice guy " beta a snowball's chance in hell to even kiss her feet,but now she wants to marry him, [ he was always " plan B" ] and tell him that her number doesn't count.
> 
> But I guess that's not a double standard,its her RIGHT!
> 
> 
> The world is full of double standards.
> 
> "...The rules of fair play do not apply in love and war..."
> John Lyly
> 
> All is fair in LOVE & WAR.


What sexual double standards do men face? Doesn't the world think that a man can sleep around but not a "good" woman? :scratchhead: Your quote about all being fair in love and war does not apply to men who are mature and evolved in their thinking. Only an insecure hypocrite thinks that women who sleep around are loose, but the same choices are okay for males.

As for s!utty women marrying betas, I don't jump on the TAM bandwagon of labelling men's personality types because it does not make sense to me. I believe that even the most "beta" male can have some "alpha" in his personality and the alphas will have some beta as well. 

My husband is far too complex for those simplistic labels. He challenges me, accepts my less desirable traits and does not put up with disrespect all at the same time. Such a bright and thoughtful man deserves much better than some silly label which cannot encompass all of who he is. 

Do you really believe that just because the world is full of an ignorant way of thinking, it makes the ignorance acceptable? I believe this because you said "The world is full of double standards". The world is also full of murderers, rapists and thieves. I guess we should just allow those types to get away with their crimes because lots of others do the same. :rofl:

Interesting how the same men in this thread who believe double standards about women's sexuality, protest loudly when they think double standards are directed at them. Thanks for proving my point. 

I believe that men create more double standards because men have had more power for hundreds of years. How can women create double standards, if our beliefs have not even been important for very long compared to the history of the world? As for men being providers, since men STILL make $1.00 for every 0.75 a woman makes in the same profession, it is only fair that the gender who makes more should provide more. In marriages where a wife makes more than her husband, she should pay more household expenses.


----------



## Thundarr

The whole alpha/beta thing is a concept but in reality there are infinite shades of gray.

Many times what the labels are referring to is that women often choose a sexually attractive man even when he's not going to be a good provider. By attractive I don't mean just looks. Charm, charisma, confidence, looks, etc.

When it's time to settle down and get more serious in life, these same women will change priority so that now a man who "can provide" contributes more to her choice in partner.

It seems like a similar scenario to men sleeping with women who are more sexually available and then when they are ready to settle down changing priority.


----------



## Gangland

Thundarr said:


> Sometimes their sexual history is a symptom of things like abuse and esteem so I agree with you there. Some times it's not though so that's why It's important to know about it and figure out the cause.
> 
> I also agree that lying and cheating are the high priority problems as well.


I agree fully.. but I'd take it further and say that even if it is a symptom, the later implies that there is a problem. A red flag if you will... and If it were me.. a reason not to commit my time and resources (for the rest of my life no less.) 

This goes for men and women.

The double standard is bunk anyway.

Why? because for a woman to have many sexual partners it does not require skill. It is her decision alone, men are appluaded (in some places) because it takes a certain level of skill to bed many women. Why would I appluad a woman for doing something that required no skill? Being a **** is easy, being a player is not.

Men and women do not judge men who bed lots of women as harshly because we tend to admire skill and competance regardless of the moral implications. (Think Darth Vader)

Women tend to not care about a mans sexual past because even if he's bedded many women, it is a testament to his skill with women. (A skill she probably admires) It is not the same for a woman who has opened her legs for many men. Sure she may be better in bed, but it took no skill to get into bed in the first place. And the ability to get me in bed would be a skill I didn't value anyway because if she initiates.. I'm game. No skill required.

Anyway because she made the decision I will judge her for it. Just like I'd judge someone who lost all of their money on gambling as not safe to invest my money in. Sure, I may not know what caused it. They may have a dying uncle and needed the money for a transplant, but I wouldn't just trust that that was the case without first knowing.

And that is why it's important to know a persons past. She may have learned from it and grown, but before I give her my life, I will be sure of it, And to do that, I need to know about it.


----------



## MrsKy

My husband has very little charisma. He is a quiet introvert who personifies the saying "Still waters run deep." Nobody would ever suspect the depth of passion and firmness this man has. 

We balance each other out very nicely as I am a hotheaded extrovert. I LOVE the way my husband does not tolerate any bratty behavior from me, yet he does not seek to control or mold like other older men I dated in the past. He will calmly and politely tell me to knock it off, without trying to get in my face or intimidate me. 

Are you saying that a man who is charming and charismatic cannot be a good provider? I would think that these types would succeed in the business world.


----------



## Entropy3000

I think folks are focused on men / women. 

So let me narrow down where I am coming from.

From my perspective anyway when I talk about a man of substance choosing a woman to marry and spend the rest of his life with, I am referring to someone who has not been sleeping with hundreds of women. Yes those guys exist. That is their choice. But they are having sex with consenting females. That is their choice. 

There is a predator variant to the Alpha types. Let me be clear here these men are MY POTENTIAL ENEMY. I have a disdain for them. Not any woman. Alpha male predators are my actual enemy if and when they would target my wife. BTW these predators exist at all ages. So do not expect me to defend their behavior in any way whatsoever. If one of these guys were to try to approach my wife he would be making a very bad quality of life decision. I love my wife more than myself plus we both have invested in each other for most of our lives. Yes there are female predators. I can deal with those.

I am talking about a guy that has a good balance of Alpha and Beta traits. And perhaps a guy who has a heavier amount of Beta traits. I feel I fall into the former group. Many women would not consider my sexual history as completely solid and that is fine.

I get the argument on the Alpha guy who wants a virgin. Check. Not what I am talking about. Not saying that it is not a very valid part of this thread.

So allowing for shades of gray, my perspective from an Alpha/Beta guy, I would not be interested at all in a woman who spent much of her life having sex with with Alpha guy after Alpha guy. This is not insecurity. In fact it is more arrogance than that. I consider the man of substance with a blend of Alpha / Beta traits to be far superior to these guys overall most of the time. They certainly are much better prospects for being fathers and good husbands. If you think your Alpha husband is awesome he is very likely not the Alpha guy I am talking about. I am talking about the guys that pump and dump. They must project that they have good genes or something. You know the bad boy syndrome.
Why would a man of substance want to marry a woman who has been with a large number of guys who pumped and dumped her. Sure she is a liberated woman and can feel great that she is using them too. Whatever. Who wants a woman who rides a bunch of these guys? Why would a man want a woman who has valued these low lifes so much as to have sex with them? To me is shows her low self esteem and lack of values. I can excuse being young to a point. But if a woman is in her mid twenties or above acting this way, then have a good life baby. Now this does not make these women bad people. Just not marriage material for many men.

Gamma men go for these women certainly. They are White Knights. Some women flat decide they are ready to settle down. Much like I felt when I was about 22. But why would a man who has not lived the life style of ONSs and a life style of many partners or group sex and gang bangs or fondling or banging strippers want a woman who has spent her life doing any of this? Why would he not choose a more compatible mate who has not been partying with the boys for a long time?

And you will love these comments, but bring it on ...
If I have a high self esteem. If I believe I have true value. Not God's gift but just a person of quality, why would I not make myself available for a woman with high self esteem, a woman of quality. Why would I not share my life with a woman who deserves my attention and devotion. Why should that woman be cheated out of options with quality men. Again quality here is in the eye of the beholder. We can substitute compatible. Just like women search for the fitest male I think men of substance search to marry the fitest woman. 

What ANY person values is completely subjective. BUT it is their right. 

My wife and I know each others history. Hypothetically if I were looking for a woman at any time over my life I would be looking for compatibility. Meaning I would certainly understand a woman who early on pursued a life style of one kind and then matured and got on what I consider to be the right track. So double standard from me? Maybe a little, but not so much.
We look at the whole package. Sexual history is just one piece. But an imprtant one. Some folks do not like dealing with information to make decisions. Others do.


----------



## Gangland

MrsKy said:


> Are you saying that a man who is charming and charismatic cannot be a good provider? I would think that these types would succeed in the business world.


I think what he means by good provider is "won't stay commited" not that they lack the funds to be a good provider. Just that because they are so attractive and have so many options with so many women they don't stay. Where as a "Beta Male" who doesn't have as many options, will stay and therefore be a better provider. Also beta males usually tend to go towards making money because it (at least in the past when women didn't earn as much) makes up for their lack of other attractive traits.


----------



## Thundarr

MrsKy said:


> My husband has very little charisma. He is a quiet introvert who personifies the saying "Still waters run deep." Nobody would ever suspect the depth of passion and firmness this man has.
> 
> We balance each other out very nicely as I am a hotheaded extrovert. I LOVE the way my husband does not tolerate any bratty behavior from me, yet he does not seek to control or mold like other older men I dated in the past. He will calmly and politely tell me to knock it off, without trying to get in my face or intimidate me.
> 
> Are you saying that a man who is charming and charismatic cannot be a good provider? I would think that these types would succeed in the business world.


I'm not saying that at all. Charm and charisma are often traits in men that many women find sexually attractive on first impression. That's all. 

As I said there are infinite shades of gray. I personally like and respect the shade of gray you defined your husband as. After all character and self respect are lasting qualities. Charm and other qualities wear thin pretty quick.

My true point was that many women hold a man with substance more valuable when they are looking to settle down. That's not to say they didn't want substance to begin with. Just that they hold it in higher regard later. I think it's a similar analogy to this post's subject matter.


----------



## FalconKing

anonim said:


> Real men talk directly to those they face, and dont prop themselves up with hypocrisy.


They also acknowledge the opinions and points others make.


----------



## Thundarr

Gangland said:


> And that is why it's important to know a persons past. She may have learned from it and grown, but before I give her my life, I will be sure of it, And to do that, I need to know about it.


My sentiment exactly. Using this frame of mind, my wife and I dated for several years and then married. By the time we tied the knot, it was not even an afterthought. We both had proven ourselves to each other.


----------



## CandieGirl

Now we're on to the Alpha and Beta talk? Bring on the Athol Kay supporters!


----------



## FalconKing

Anonim you have gotten at least 3 different responses of people saying that it's basically not their job to figure out past traumas with a potential life partner. It's their job to seek what they want. I don't understand why it matters causes/symptoms. If I someone treats me unfairly or engages in a lifestyle i'm uncomfortable with that should be enough for me to end the process of seeking a relationship. Will you acknowledge or just keep saying the same things? Or perhaps try to backdoor to another point you wanted to try and make?


----------



## FalconKing

CandieGirl said:


> Now we're on to the Alpha and Beta talk? Bring on the Athol Kay supporters!


I'll pass. But if anyone is willing to make a thread about it i'll stop by:smthumbup:.


----------



## TiggyBlue

The alpha-beta theory has been very twisted for social purposes.


----------



## CandieGirl

The whole MMSL thing is twisted, IMHO. But I'm in the minority there, that I know, especially in this forum.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Thundarr said:


> I'm not saying that at all. Charm and charisma are often traits in men that many women find sexually attractive on first impression. That's all.
> 
> As I said there are infinite shades of gray. I personally like and respect the shade of gray you defined your husband as. *After all character and self respect are lasting qualities.* Charm and other qualities wear thin pretty quick.


I put *character* above all things... (qualities of honesty, courage, or the like; integrity)..... *charm* is fleeting. *Confidence* can be masked also. My husband sounds like MrsKys, I'm the hot headed one, and he too, is the quiet introvert that balances ME out. He always gets me to :rofl: at myself - without adding fuel to the flame - in my not so pretty moments.... Love him for that.  

I get my feathers a little ruffled when BETA is looked upon as a worthless quality in men.....There is Good BETA and Bad BETA... and Good ALPHA and BAD ALPHA (Entropy's enemy is the BAD ALPHA dogs).....

I know my husband is tipped on the Beta side... His alpha is a quiet inner confidence, he is not afraid to show his emotions either....I count this a blessing in marriage. 

I've never been one to admire the Bad boys for their sexual conquests....they might be enjoyable to look at, might be good for a some laughs too....but it ended there.


----------



## Entropy3000

CandieGirl said:


> Now we're on to the Alpha and Beta talk? Bring on the Athol Kay supporters!


Athol did not invent these concepts.

The idea that many women play with the bad boys versus the good guys and then later go looking for the good guy to marry is a very well established debate.

Using these terms is a way of conveying that you cannot group all men into one category just as you cannot group all women. 

Why would a guy want a woman who has proved wants sex with a bad boy type that has different values than his own? Why would his wife over the long haul be sexually attracted to him when she has lived a life of desiring a completely different type. When is she going to get bored with him and seek out another bad boy? Or lets give her credit and assume good character, when will she get bored and be unhappy? Not saying she will cheat but the marriage will suck. Can people change? Perhaps. But why risk it.

Also if you marry a party girl you have to deal with the whole transition to married life. You have to deal with the bar hopping and the clubs and the plethora of close male friends and the entitlement and so on. I am not saying that people cannot work these out. I think there are always things to work out. Most folks just shoot form the hip and assume love will conquer all and that they will just have trust. Quite a gamble with your life.


----------



## Entropy3000

FalconKing said:


> Anonim you have gotten at least 3 different responses of people saying that it's basically not their job to figure out past traumas with a potential life partner. It's their job to seek what they want. I don't understand why it matters causes/symptoms. If I someone treats me unfairly or engages in a lifestyle i'm uncomfortable with that should be enough for me to end the process of seeking a relationship. Will you acknowledge or just keep saying the same things? Or perhaps try to backdoor to another point you wanted to try and make?


We do not marry people to fix them or help them. We marry someone we have the hots for and that we hope will be a strong partner.


----------



## CandieGirl

Entropy3000 said:


> Athol did not invent these concepts.
> 
> The idea that many women play with the bad boys versus the good guys and then later go looking for the good guy to marry is a very well established debate.
> 
> Using these terms is a way of conveying that you cannot group all men into one category just as you cannot group all women.
> 
> Why would a guy want a woman who has proved wants sex with a bad boy type that has different values than his own? Why would his wife over the long haul be sexually attracted to him when she has lived a life of desiring a completely different type. When is she going to get bored with him and seek out another bad boy? Or lets give her credit and assume good character, when will she get bored and be unhappy? Not saying she will cheat but the marriage will suck. Can people change? Perhaps. But why risk it.
> 
> Also if you marry a party girl you have to deal with the whole transition to married life. You have to deal with the bar hopping and the clubs and the plethora of close male friends and the entitlement and so on. I am not saying that people cannot work these out. I think there are always things to work out. Most folks just shoot form the hip and assume love will conquer all and that they will just have trust. Quite a gamble with your life.


And we have one...

(PS - I realize that he didn't invent the concepts, but he's sure got quite the gang of followers. And I'll never understand why, but that's just me )


----------



## Thundarr

I just try to be a good husband, good father, good friend, good person, and believe it or not open minded. I have expectations of my children, my friends, my wife, and myself. Have no clue where I'd be labeled and I don't care much. 

I expect myself to make smart choices and blind trust about character just isn't smart. Someone's past is important in understanding who they are and why. It wouldn't be smart of me to marry without knowing who they are. And no their past does not define them anymore than a single tire defines a car.


----------



## anonim

FalconKing said:


> They also acknowledge the opinions and points others make.


good points and opinions maybe.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Entropy3000 said:


> *We do not marry people to fix them or help them. We marry someone we have the hots for and that we hope will be a strong partner.*


:iagree:

If you give these people a chance, they will tell you who to marry. See your life turn into a living hell,and then laugh at you.

Having wasted a part of my youth in debauchery, I finally came to my senses, when I met my wife.
a woman who place HIGH value in herself. A woman who understood the value of time and money, a woman who pointed my life in a certain direction.

I would have been a jacka$$ not to marry her.
Today we own a business.

That fellow's argument is that I'm a hypocrite , because I didn't marry the party girls who i screwed around with......
But,

*WERE THEY READY TO STOP THE INCESSANT PARTYING AND GET MARRIED?*

The answer is NO

I will tell any young man not to get married to any woman that would make his life miserable. 

People marry who they deem fit to be tied with ,
FOR LIFE

No double standard in that.


----------



## FalconKing

CandieGirl said:


> And we have one...
> 
> (PS - I realize that he didn't invent the concepts, but he's sure got quite the gang of followers. And I'll never understand why, but that's just me )


If I had to guess CandieGirl I think it's because he breaks things down in a way that an emasculated man can feel empowered. Not tolerating BS from your spouse. I think an issue that may occur though is a guy going overboard and running his spouse off. And some guys may not want to tolerate BS from a spouse but still give their own BS. Like anything, it depends on how you use the information.


----------



## CandieGirl

Thundarr said:


> I just try to be a good husband, good father, good friend, good person, and believe it or not open minded. I have expectations of my children, my friends, my wife, and myself. Have no clue where I'd be labeled and I don't care much.
> 
> I expect myself to make smart choices and blind trust about character just isn't smart. Someone's past is important in understanding who they are and why. It wouldn't be smart of me to marry without knowing who they are. And no their past does not define them anymore than a single tire defines a car.


You have been one of the most thoughtful, accepting, insightful, consistent posters in this thread; just sayin'!


----------



## FalconKing

anonim said:


> good points and opinions maybe.


Maybe?

So it's something you do begrudgingly? Or what?


----------



## Caribbean Man

CandieGirl said:


> You have been one of the most thoughtful, accepting, insightful, consistent posters in this thread; just sayin'!


Just last week you said it was Entropy.
Just Sayin'


----------



## Thundarr

CandieGirl said:


> You have been one of the most thoughtful, accepting, insightful, consistent posters in this thread; just sayin'!


Wow thank you CG. I have tried to see this from both sides and I appreciate that you think I've succeeded to some degree.


----------



## Entropy3000

CandieGirl said:


> And we have one...
> 
> (PS - I realize that he didn't invent the concepts, but he's sure got quite the gang of followers. And I'll never understand why, but that's just me )


I know what you mean dear lady. I get what you are saying. I am just playing my view of the debate. Please don't let on that I know you know.

He has a line of followers because he is blunt and to the point. Everyone has their audiencs.

I am a married man. Sex within in marriage is my #1 emotional need. Athol has taken a bunch of the _manosphere_ rhetoric and framed it for married men in an entertaining way. A simple way. LOL. Yes so us men can understand it. Reading his book helped me reignite the passion in my marriage. My wife benefited from this because underneath it all it is about a married man becoming a more desireable partner for his wife. All goodness to me. Is there other stuff there. Sure. It is a salad bar. Leave what you don't like.

I am not Roisseys audience though I get some of his points. I will read Roissey because I believe in know thy enemy. Good husbands really need to know what the competition is thinking IMO.

I am a geek who has spent most of his energies in life solving engineering problems. I need all the help in understanding women that I can get. That said, understanding women in general better is only going to help me understand my wife so far because she is a real live individual. But I have found Athol's stuff a value add for my marriage.

I came to TAM because of Athol. So you all can blame me on him.


----------



## Entropy3000

MrsKy said:


> My husband has very little charisma. He is a quiet introvert who personifies the saying "Still waters run deep." Nobody would ever suspect the depth of passion and firmness this man has.
> 
> We balance each other out very nicely as I am a hotheaded extrovert. I LOVE the way my husband does not tolerate any bratty behavior from me, yet he does not seek to control or mold like other older men I dated in the past. He will calmly and politely tell me to knock it off, without trying to get in my face or intimidate me.
> 
> Are you saying that a man who is charming and charismatic cannot be a good provider? I would think that these types would succeed in the business world.


Your husband has a compatible mix of Alpha and Beta traits. Awesome. No one is saying that a pure Alpha or Beta person could exist in the universe. 

As you know we can mix combinations of Red Green and Blue and make all sorts of colors from just these three. We don't even need to use Red, Green and Blue in the spectrum do do this. We just use these by convention.

So while we may rarely see a pure Red, it exists conceptually.

Red may be FF0000 in Hex on a computer.

Some women want Purple. You seem to have a guy that is some shade of Purple.

Some women get Purple by pursuing that Red hot guy during their single years and then marrying that true Blue guy. The true Blue guy is leary of the woman who wants sex with that Red hot guy. He wants the woman who wants sex with him or has at least shown a propensity for true Blue guys. Guys are like that pretty much. Not all.


----------



## CandieGirl

Caribbean Man said:


> Just last week you said it was Entropy.
> Just Sayin'


Yes and Entropy knows full well that I enjoy his insights, judging by the 'likes' he gets from me. What's your point, other than to prove that you have nothing better to do than dissect our posts, and keep track of what everyone says on any given day? :scratchhead:


----------



## Caribbean Man

Entropy3000 said:


> I know what you mean dear lady. I get what you are saying. I am just playing my view of the debate. Please don't let on that I know you know.
> 
> He has a line of followers because he is blunt and to the point. Everyone has their audiencs.
> 
> *I am a married man. Sex within in marriage is my #1 emotional need. Athol has taken a bunch of the manosphere rhetoric and framed it for married men in an entertaining way. A simple way. LOL. Yes so us men can understand it. Reading his book helped me reignite the passion in my marriage. * My wife benefited from this because underneath it all it is about a married man becoming a more desireable partner for his wife. All goodness to me. Is there other stuff there. Sure. It is a salad bar. Leave what you don't like.
> 
> I am not Roisseys audience though I get some of his points. I will read Roissey because I believe in know thy enemy. Good husbands really need to know what the competition is thinking IMO.
> 
> I am a geek who has spent most of his energies in life solving engineering problems. I need all the help in understanding women that I can get. That said, understanding women in general better is only going to help me understand my wife so far because she is a real live individual. But I have found Athol's stuff a value add for my marriage.
> 
> I came to TAM because of Athol. So you all can blame me on him.


The point is, 
The book was not really meant to address sex from a woman's perspective. So to some women it does not make sense.
Just like Cosmos and Elle don't really appeal to men.

You are correct when you say he took some man rhetoric and framed it for married men in an entertaining way.

I am not a disciple of Athol Kay, but I have benefited and agree with some of what he says.


----------



## Entropy3000

Thundarr said:


> I just try to be a good husband, good father, good friend, good person, and believe it or not open minded. I have expectations of my children, my friends, my wife, and myself. Have no clue where I'd be labeled and I don't care much.
> 
> I expect myself to make smart choices and blind trust about character just isn't smart. Someone's past is important in understanding who they are and why. It wouldn't be smart of me to marry without knowing who they are. And no their past does not define them anymore than a single tire defines a car.


:smthumbup::smthumbup::iagree::iagree:


----------



## FalconKing

Me, Entropy and Thundarr fundamentally agree on a lot of things. Why don't I get any love?


----------



## Caribbean Man

CandieGirl said:


> Yes and Entropy knows full well that I enjoy his insights, judging by the 'likes' he gets from me. What's your point, other than to prove that you have nothing better to do than dissect our posts, and keep track of what everyone says on any given day? :scratchhead:


:scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:

I thought everybody on this forum dissects each other's posts and debate it.
Isn't that what forums are for?

If you dont want me to dissect your post all you have to do is say so and I will kindly oblige.

You have dissected mine in the past, and I have never been offended and I'm open minded enough to say that you can continue to dissect my posts.

That's my point


----------



## CandieGirl

Entropy3000 said:


> I know what you mean dear lady. I get what you are saying. I am just playing my view of the debate. Please don't let on that I know you know.
> 
> He has a line of followers because he is blunt and to the point. Everyone has their audiencs.
> 
> I am a married man. Sex within in marriage is my #1 emotional need. Athol has taken a bunch of the _manosphere_ rhetoric and framed it for married men in an entertaining way. A simple way. LOL. Yes so us men can understand it. Reading his book helped me reignite the passion in my marriage. My wife benefited from this because underneath it all it is about a married man becoming a more desireable partner for his wife. All goodness to me. Is there other stuff there. Sure. It is a salad bar. Leave what you don't like.
> 
> I am not Roisseys audience though I get some of his points. I will read Roissey because I believe in know thy enemy. Good husbands really need to know what the competition is thinking IMO.
> 
> I am a geek who has spent most of his energies in life solving engineering problems. I need all the help in understanding women that I can get. That said, understanding women in general better is only going to help me understand my wife so far because she is a real live individual. But I have found Athol's stuff a value add for my marriage.
> 
> I came to TAM because of Athol. So you all can blame me on him.


I wish there was something out there for me! I've had MMSL recommended to me so many times my head spins, but it'll never work for us! In our house, I am the one with sex as my # 1 emotional need...I think we can mostly all agree that this is not the norm and it causes problems in our house...I tried getting my husband to read Athol's blog, and after 20 minutes, he asked if he could stop. Wasn't for him...at...all... 

So we're stuck figuring it out on our own much of the time, and with tidbits I pick up here from people like you. I think you, too, have very intelligent and interesting, fair insights on a great variety of topics. Halien and Sigma1299 have been enormous aides as well plus numerous female posters. But this is not a fan club, LOL, so I'll stop now.

PS - I think you're smarter and better spoken than that Athol dude...JUST SAYIN'.


----------



## CandieGirl

FalconKing said:


> Me, Entropy and Thundarr fundamentally agree on a lot of things. Why don't I get any love?


Fundamentals don't quite cut it with me, plus you've been butting heads with me for days; you're still new here, maybe in another year or so.


----------



## FalconKing

I am not married. But I am often concerned about what makes a good marriage. Speaking from a man's perspective and discounting the fact that sometimes you just marry the wrong person, I often see 2 things:

1) A very selfless guy who gives to the point of where he is an enabler of unhealthy behavior.

2) A completely insensitive guy who is so selfish to the point of you wondering how he got married in the first place. 

Athol Kay does offer some sort of balance. I've read his and the material of others. I feel he does offer good insights. Take what can be useful from anything you feel can help you. What you don't want or feel doesn't apply to you, don't use it. That's what MMA fighters do


----------



## Entropy3000

Caribbean Man said:


> Just last week you said it was Entropy.
> Just Sayin'


:rofl::rofl:

Hilarious. 

CG and I get along just fine. We don't always agree on the finer points but that is good. How else can we all learn or grow. She does make me think and that is priceless. I appreciate that about her. I think she knows while I can be an @$$hols that deep down I actually give a sh!t about people.

Thundarr is freaking awesome. He is truly eloquent. He has an awesome spirit about him with no pretense. He seems like a true gentlemen. I define a gentlemen as a man of substance who posseses the compassion that a pure Alpha lacks and yet is fearless enough to drive the Alpha away.

------------------------------

Contrived Scenario. Burning House. Young child trapped within.

Pure Alpha. -- Has no fear but not driven to risk his own life when death is almost certain. His own survival trumps all.

Pure Beta -- Has great compassion and will empathize with the child by crying. But parallized by fear. He will hate himself for this.

Man of substance ( Alpha / Beta blend ) -- Will be driven by compassion to enter the house and give his life if need be just for the chance to save the child. His courage will override his fear. In a vacuum he does not wait on anyone else to act. Meaning in the absence of designated leadership he will lead. He knows who he is and knows he is a man that takes charge and can do this if anyone can. He understands he may not be coming back out. But he also knows if he does not try the child is dead. So he goes. This is a "real" man. IMHO. Is he a hero. Most certainly. He fights for those who cannot fight for themselves. Just happens to be part of the Navy SEAL creed BTW.


----------



## CandieGirl

Oh, Falcon....not married! Ack! 

I had a day long thread with someone a few weeks back bestowing the virtues of oppposite sex friends...she was for I was against. We were having good natured discussion back and forth, pros and cons and all of that, until she came out and said said that her op sex friend would make a good FWB or would be great to have an affair with !!! I nearly sh!t myself! But then we all found out she's still SINGLE!!! LMAO!!!

I pointed out to her that as a single gal, she could have as many opsex friends as she liked 

And I've only been married a year; hardly a marriage expert.


----------



## FalconKing

Well i'm not trying to buttheads with you, but fair enough. Appreciate it.


----------



## CandieGirl

Caribbean Man said:


> The point is,
> The book was not really meant to address sex from a woman's perspective. So to some women it does not make sense.
> Just like Cosmos and Elle don't really appeal to men.
> 
> You are correct when you say he took some man rhetoric and framed it for married men in an entertaining way.
> 
> I am not a disciple of Athol Kay, but I have benefited and agree with some of what he says.


That is true, it's for men...what really bugs me the most is his wife. I think she's a moron!


----------



## Entropy3000

CandieGirl said:


> Yes and Entropy knows full well that I enjoy his insights, judging by the 'likes' he gets from me. What's your point, other than to prove that you have nothing better to do than dissect our posts, and keep track of what everyone says on any given day? :scratchhead:


Not sure if he is poking at you or me. Probably both LOL.


----------



## Entropy3000

FalconKing said:


> Me, Entropy and Thundarr fundamentally agree on a lot of things. Why don't I get any love?


You started the thread.


----------



## FalconKing

CandieGirl said:


> Oh, Falcon....not married! Ack!
> 
> I had a day long thread with someone a few weeks back bestowing the virtues of oppposite sex friends...she was for I was against. We were having good natured discussion back and forth, pros and cons and all of that, until she came out and said said that her op sex friend would make a good FWB or would be great to have an affair with !!! I nearly sh!t myself! But then we all found out she's still SINGLE!!! LMAO!!!
> 
> I pointed out to her that as a single gal, she could have as many opsex friends as she liked
> 
> And I've only been married a year; hardly a marriage expert.


That's like playing with fire to me. I have a few female friends. But if I marry I won't be able to communicate with them like I do now, if ever. I know how that sounds but my wife needs to know and understand that besides relatives, she as a woman satisfies all my needs. How often is it we see that scenario of you communicating with your opposite sex friend about issues that you and your relationship may have and having that lead to something else. 

I was briefly dating a girl and we were trying to move towards something serious. She had a lot of guy friends and I knew that most of them had romantic interest in her. I told her I was not interested in being a contestant on the bachelorette. If she feels she needs attention from a lot of men then i'll be the one jumping through hoops trying to keep all of her attention. And that will be the dynamic of our relationship. We no longer communicate


----------



## Entropy3000

CandieGirl said:


> I wish there was something out there for me! I've had MMSL recommended to me so many times my head spins, but it'll never work for us! In our house, I am the one with sex as my # 1 emotional need...I think we can mostly all agree that this is not the norm and it causes problems in our house...I tried getting my husband to read Athol's blog, and after 20 minutes, he asked if he could stop. Wasn't for him...at...all...
> 
> So we're stuck figuring it out on our own much of the time, and with tidbits I pick up here from people like you. I think you, too, have very intelligent and interesting, fair insights on a great variety of topics. Halien and Sigma1299 have been enormous aides as well plus numerous female posters. But this is not a fan club, LOL, so I'll stop now.
> 
> *PS - I think you're smarter and better spoken than that Athol dude...JUST SAYIN'.*


Much thanks. You are very gracious. 

I feel I have squandered so much of my life in darkness that I have a voracious appetite now to understand this whole male / female thing.

I think it does not hurt women to read MMSL. Especially if their hubby is reading it. But they are not the target audience. I can understand why they might be offended much in the way many men are offended by many female targeted forums.

I think we men assume that women have all sorts of other resources.


----------



## CandieGirl

I've been guilty of trying to find a book or have someone TELL me specifically what to do in my marriage; and that's never going to happen.

So as someone stated earlier, you have to take a little from here, a little from there....and figure it out. No one book and no one piece of advice is a one size fits all bandage, is it?

I am not really offended by Athol...I truly think both he and his wife are twits...no offence to you guys who are into it...LOL...


----------



## Thundarr

CandieGirl said:


> Oh, Falcon....not married! Ack!
> 
> I had a day long thread with someone a few weeks back bestowing the virtues of oppposite sex friends...she was for I was against. We were having good natured discussion back and forth, pros and cons and all of that, until she came out and said said that her op sex friend would make a good FWB or would be great to have an affair with !!! I nearly sh!t myself! But then we all found out she's still SINGLE!!! LMAO!!!
> 
> I pointed out to her that as a single gal, she could have as many opsex friends as she liked
> 
> And I've only been married a year; hardly a marriage expert.


I remember that thread. It was quite a shock that she didn't disclose her marital status and clearly we all assumed married.


----------



## Entropy3000

CandieGirl said:


> That is true, it's for men...what really bugs me the most is his wife. I think she's a moron!


:lol::rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## Caribbean Man

Entropy3000 said:


> Not sure if he is poking at you or me. Probably both LOL.


 Actually I was poking fun at both of you.

But you alone got it!
I wonder if your sexual history has anything to do with that?
Or maybe its because you were able to understand Athol kay.....


----------



## FalconKing

Entropy3000 said:


> I think it does not hurt women to read MMSL. Especially if their hubby is reading it. But they are not the target audience. I can understand why they might be offended much in the way many men are offended by many female targeted forums.
> 
> I think we men assume that women have all sorts of other resources.


Exactly. MMSL is for men who want to be more positive, respectable and ultimately have a more sexual marriage. Candie Girl since you are the one requiring more intimacy and the book deals with way for a man to invoke attraction from his wife, I can see your frustration. You are attracted to your husband, you are wanting intimacy. The book also deals with ways to be romantic and better at communicating about intimacy. It takes the perspective that the husband wants sex and the wife doesn't. 

None of these things mean jack doo doo to you because your husband can have all the sex he wants. All he has to do is recognize that and do something about it. If I had a wife who was not interested in sex like I was, I too would be annoyed with reading a book written by women for women detailing to them how to get their husband to have more sex:yawn2:

It would honestly probably just piss me off.


----------



## CandieGirl

Exactly! And there is no such book for women like me!


----------



## CandieGirl

Caribbean Man said:


> Actually I was poking fun at both of you.
> 
> But you alone got it!
> I wonder if your sexual history has anything to do with that?
> Or maybe its because you were able to understand Athol kay.....


Well, remember what I said about Athol Kay...it takes one to know one! 

I'm sure both of YOU (if we were to count) have a higher number than lil ol me....:lol:


----------



## FalconKing

CandieGirl said:


> Well, remember what I said about Athol Kay...it takes one to know one!
> 
> I'm sure both of YOU (if we were to count) have a higher number than lil ol me....:lol:


CandieGirl I don't think he was directing anything to you at all. I think he was joking about how black and white everyone was taking everything on this thread and assuming extreme things from statements people made. You know...sarcasm

I was going to add, "Exactly CB. I'm left handed and generally breathe through my mouth. Perhaps it has something to do with my past sexual encounters."

Now I see not everyone caught the humor. Glad I digressed.


----------



## Maricha75

CandieGirl said:


> Exactly! And there is no such book for women like me!


I'd suggest that you write one, but would it be full of more questions than answers?


----------



## CandieGirl

Believe me I have thought of it; I come from a family of no less than 3 published authors...gift of the gab and all that.


----------



## Entropy3000

FrenchFry said:


> This forum has totally inspired me to write a book about feminist marriages, no lie.
> 
> Too bad I'm no writer!


Not fanfiction?


----------



## Gangland

CandieGirl said:


> I wish there was something out there for me! I've had MMSL recommended to me so many times my head spins, but it'll never work for us! In our house, I am the one with sex as my # 1 emotional need...I think we can mostly all agree that this is not the norm and it causes problems in our house...I tried getting my husband to read Athol's blog, and after 20 minutes, he asked if he could stop. Wasn't for him...at...all...
> 
> So we're stuck figuring it out on our own much of the time, and with tidbits I pick up here from people like you. I think you, too, have very intelligent and interesting, fair insights on a great variety of topics. Halien and Sigma1299 have been enormous aides as well plus numerous female posters. But this is not a fan club, LOL, so I'll stop now.
> 
> PS - I think you're smarter and better spoken than that Athol dude...JUST SAYIN'.


A lot of guys WISH this was their problem lol

that aside...

I don't think there is as much you can do to raise a mans willinness for sex as there is for a woman because we are not as responsive to things in as varying degrees as women. Meaning if we're hot for things we're hot for things, it doesn't matter as much what you do. It does matter, but not as much, we're mostly visual. Breasts, wide hips, and pretty smile is what turns us on. You can argue that I'm being general, but this has already been scientifically proven.

If he's hot for you but doesn't want to lay you like tile, could be something to do with testostorone. The hormone that seems to be behind these things. 

As far as improving a marriage.. there are TONS and TONS of books for women to do that. Not that any of them are that good, but they're out there. lol


----------



## Entropy3000

All I can say is that after this last Sundays Squat session where I set some PRs I can tell my testosterone is way the heck up.

So yeah he should see the doctor and get his T levels checked. Not sure if they can check the need for zinc but trust me that matters for a number of men. Any kind of stress will deplete zinc.

I take regularly the following along with lifting heavy weights :

Fish Oil
Maca -- This is good for energy if nothing else but it is something that some doctors recommend for both man and women to increase libido. 
DHEA -- Best for guys over 50 but can be helpful for 35 and above.
Zinc -- Strength athletes use this to increase their levels
Creatine

1each of GNC Mega Men Sport + GNC Prostate & Virility

I also use Whey Protein with BCAA blend

The above are good for male health period but to be sure sexual health as well.


----------



## Thundarr

Entropy3000 said:


> All I can say is that after this last Sundays Squat session where I set some PRs I can tell my testosterone is way the heck up.
> 
> So yeah he should see the doctor and get his T levels checked. Not sure if they can check the need for zinc but trust me that matters for a number of men. Any kind of stress will deplete zinc.
> 
> I take regularly the following along with lifting heavy weights :
> 
> Fish Oil
> Maca -- This is good for energy if nothing else but it is something that some doctors recommend for both man and women to increase libido.
> DHEA -- Best for guys over 50 but can be helpful for 35 and above.
> Zinc -- Strength athletes use this to increase their levels
> Creatine
> 
> 1each of GNC Mega Men Sport + GNC Prostate & Virility
> 
> I also use Whey Protein with BCAA blend
> 
> The above are good for male health period but to be sure sexual health as well.


Ahhhh. I've got to get started back but yes large muscle groups, heavy weight, and low reps will bump up natural testosterone. Squats, bench, pullups, dead lift.

I'll have to try DHEA. My test is not where it used to be. Also most test boosters sold have tons of zink and magnesium.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Gangland said:


> If he's hot for you but doesn't want to lay you like tile, could be something to do with testostorone. The hormone that seems to be behind these things.


Yep, that IS where I would start, when I hit my SEX HIGH and my husband couldn't keep up with me, I didn't waste any time sending him to the Encronologist for a full work up.... here we learned his levels were "normal" ...for a man in his 60's -he was only 45 ! (323 being the lowest - 503 being the highest out of 9 morning tests over 3 months). That comment bothered me for months... till I started reading books on Testosterone....learning that for SOME MEN, being lower is NORMAL for them... they can accually handle it BETTER than a man who was naturally HIGHER TEST - but took a big DIVE in his levels over a short period of time....this man would feel like HELL, he would be dragging mentally & physically. (normal is anywhere from 250ish - 1200- depending on the Lab... IT is a grey area for men anything lower than 450ish - some need Treatment - some don't)

My husband was never the aggressive type anyway..... so I feel the Encron was right, he didn't need any treatment, he was never depressed and even with the lower #'s, we were going at it 5-6 times a week. A little Vitamin V did help out on occasion though. 

If a husband is not taking care of himself & seriously not interested in having sex... very well could be a hormonal thing going on......if it is too low... he would be near falling asleep after work , probably complaining about feeling fatigued...having some brain Fog, more on the depressive side... stuff like that goes hand in hand with Low Test. 

I also give my husband a handful of vitamins in the am...

A men's Multi....Fish oil.... DHEA... ZINC.... Vit D....Vit C.....B-12 

I tried Horny Goat weed, didn't seem to do anything, tried Tongkat Ali- made his skin crawl -that was the end of that experiement....I always make sure he gets enough sleep. He lifted weights for a time, but it didn't seem to do too much for him.

Here is THE THREAD on TESTOSTERONE here at TAM ... Alot of useful info & could ask some questions IF you think it just might be this... http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/19213-dealing-low-testosterone-hypogonadism.html


----------



## Entropy3000

Thundarr said:


> Ahhhh. I've got to get started back but yes large muscle groups, heavy weight, and low reps will bump up natural testosterone. Squats, bench, pullups, dead lift.
> 
> I'll have to try DHEA. My test is not where it used to be. Also most test boosters sold have tons of zink and magnesium.


DHEA is a precurser to Testosterone and Estorgen for that matter. This was really a hot thing a few years back. 

DHEA levels fall off siginifcantly after 35.

I take 100 mg ... I want to say daily but the reality is that I typically only get my supplemts in about four days a week. I get distracted.

If you try this start with 25 mg daily. This is common dosage that you find in many multi-vitamins for guys over 50 for example.

I only use this when I am lifting regularly and heavy.

Go ahead and do your own research here.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> Ahhhh. I've got to get started back but yes large muscle groups, heavy weight, and low reps will bump up natural testosterone. Squats, bench, pullups, dead lift.
> 
> I'll have to try DHEA. My test is not where it used to be. *Also most test boosters sold have tons of zink and magnesium.*


Zinc and magnesium in the correct proportions have been found to naturally boost testosterone.

Any product which contains ZMA
[ Zinc Magnesium Aspartate ] in the correct proportions will boost test. up by at least 20%.

I use Universal Nutrition's Animal Test, or Universal Nutrition ZMA.

Whenever you have some time, check in out the workout thread in teh social section.

ETA...Squats , Deadlits ,Hanging Leg Raise or any exercise that works the lower abdominals also works teh PC muscle. The PC muscles control the hardness and fullness of your erections.
If the PC muscle is kept strong you will NEVER suffer from
" semi erections."


----------



## anonim

Entropy3000 said:


> We do not marry people to fix them or help them. We marry someone we have the hots for and that we hope will be a strong partner.


True, but if you can heal and help each other on the way, thats a big plus.


----------



## anonim

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> If you give these people a chance, they will tell you who to marry. See your life turn into a living hell,and then laugh at you.
> 
> Having wasted a part of my youth in debauchery, I finally came to my senses, when I met my wife.
> a woman who place HIGH value in herself. A woman who understood the value of time and money, a woman who pointed my life in a certain direction.
> 
> I would have been a jacka$$ not to marry her.
> Today we own a business.
> 
> *That fellow's argument is that I'm a hypocrite , because I didn't marry the party girls who i screwed around with......*


Nope. I said you were a hypocrite because you generalize and marginalize women, and hold them to standards you dont even keep yourself to, and then criticize them when they 'fall short.'

I'm not 'siding' with women, I just think such behavior shows bad character.


----------



## FalconKing

anonim said:


> Nope. I said you were a hypocrite because you generalize and marginalize women, and hold them to standards you dont even keep yourself to, and then criticize them when they 'fall short.'
> 
> I'm not 'siding' with women, I just think such behavior shows bad character.


You were calling people hypocrites before you even heard anything they had to say. 

I also could bring up some of your post that might show you also have bad character. Soooo...with that perhaps it hypocritical for you to call someone else a hypocrite. Ya dig?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Caribbean Man said:


> Any product which contains ZMA
> [ Zinc Magnesium Aspartate ] in the correct proportions will boost test. up by at least 20%.
> 
> I use Universal Nutrition's Animal Test, or Universal Nutrition ZMA.


 I just looked that up  Universal Animal Pak Sports Nutrition Supplement, 44-Count: Health & Personal Care Hmmmm might have to get him some of that! Reading some of those reviews just now, some hail this as their all inclusive Male Multi -Vitamin. 



> ETA...Squats , Deadlits ,Hanging Leg Raise or any exercise that works the lower abdominals also works the PC muscle. The PC muscles control the hardness and fullness of your erections.
> If the PC muscle is kept strong you will NEVER suffer from
> " semi erections."


I bought this book awhile back >> 

Built for Sex: The Complete Fitness and Nutrition Program for Maximum Performance: 

All you say is in that book...My husband did this for a time, but he got lazy. We're not very disciplined with the exercising at all.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Men, we are talking about *you* on another thread.... did I explain where you are coming -doing your thoughts on this thread Justice... or am I missing it somewhere in this reply... 

*Post #82 *....

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-her-past-what-should-i-do-6.html#post1068914


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

I am gonna get ya for dragging me back here. WE weren't talking about them. You brought them into that conversation.


----------



## Caribbean Man

HopelesslyJaded said:


> I am gonna get ya for dragging me back here. WE weren't talking about them. You brought them into that conversation.


:scratchhead:

But Jade,
You're fit and strong,
How could SA * d r a g * you back over here?


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

Caribbean Man said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> But Jade,
> You're fit and strong,
> How could SA * d r a g * you back over here?


Well maybe my low moral value allows me to be swayed.


----------



## Caribbean Man

HopelesslyJaded said:


> Well maybe my low moral value allows me to be swayed.


Au contrair, mon ami ,

I have never thought of you as having low moral values!

You are fit , healthy, and take care of your body.
You are a pretty strong willed woman who knows exactly what she's doing and why she's doing it.

That attitude cannot co exist with low morals.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

HopelesslyJaded said:


> I am gonna get ya for dragging me back here. WE weren't talking about them. You brought them into that conversation.


I assumed wrong there, my apologies.  Yes, I did bring them back into the conversation, as I felt it was inferred that I had suddenly changed my views by jumping on that Hypocritical poster....just wanted to explain how I felt I have been steadfast, and yes, I brought 4 men into my post ~ Guilty as charged. 

If there is any purpose to this thread at all.. ...it should be for understanding where others are coming from...and to not feel slighted or judged by others viewpoints or personal choices in life ~~ since it's not our belief anyway. 

For instance ... That Girl could care less how I raise my children, her views on sexuality is more liberal than mine. I don't think she feels judged by me.....and that's good. :smthumbup: And I can only hope she doesn't judge me for the way I parent. I have 5 sons, I don't raise them to engage in Double standars...I do believe that is wrong. Common sense tells me this. I don't need the Bible. Some women should give me a thumbs up on this -since it IS a huge issue on this thread. 

My personal interest in this subject .... is trying to bridge some understanding...even unto myself... in how I raise my children in regards to their sexuality.... Many would call ME "extreme".....but I am not as extreme as the Church by any means, so am I really extreme?? 

I have already expressed I feel Christianity goes TOO FAR in it's purity stance, to the point of rediculousness, and this can do more harm than good for many....to the point of setting them up to fail miserably & feel shame for having strong sexual desires, touching their BF's & GF's & a little experimenting. 

But on the other hand...just as the Church goes too far one way ....I feel so does a huge population of our young people today ..... It's a worthy subject , isn't it ? Most of us are parents...right ? 

I've mentioned this before on another thread....

We have a good friend ....he drives BUS for a State College... when he comes to visit, we get an earful of his experiences...weekends...drunken college students, some trying to have sex on the bus- his job is to stop this...he has seen ALOT.... he's had to call the cops on brawls over a BF, 1 women begging him to DO her. What he has seen scares the hell out of him......for his own daughter to go to college.... this is such common behavior today. 

Virgins are 1 extreme, this is the other....Partying all night, drunken sex parties. DO I want my kids to live like this , engage in this behavior ? I would not....and I hope the values I have instilled in them would prevent them from making these choices. (so far so good) 

But maybe some feel this is a right of passage- for college life - today? How many feel that way on this thread I wonder?? 

Am I wrong to not teach my kids to Go, condoms in hand, birth control pills in her purse...live it up, get it out of your system, while you are young -because someday you may regret it ?? 

Books have been written today telling us *monogomy* is not natural, I accually don't doubt this at all...why I personally dont have qualms that we are attracted to the opposite sex (big deal)... but I don't feel this truth = we should take our natural animal instincts & spread our seed all over the place either. After all, man IS superior over the animal kingdom, why we build bridges, bestow justice and have managed to fly to the Moon & back, and see value in a healthy family staying together with love flowing. 

What is the balance I ask? What is healthy sexual behavior ...what should we Teach our children in these regards ?? 

This IS my interest on this thread....I am sucking it all in.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

I hate doing this from my phone. Lol
I am not teaching my children abstinence or "free love". I am teaching them responsibility for themselves. I just sat down with my 13 year old this week and had "the talk". His father had this talk with him a couple years ago but so much happens in such a short time when your a teenager that I believe we have to revisit the talk from time to time. I am glad I did because the main thing he remembered from that conversation was boys have a penis and girls have a vagina. Lol 

The only request I made was for him was to wait till he was at least 18. I did not threaten or demand this. I asked this of him and then explained why I felt this way. He does not know I lost my virginity at 14. If he asks, I won't lie. He does know that me being a single mom at 19 was hard and made me have to change my plans as far as work and college go. 
I am teaching him to protect himself and his future. I told him to never trust that a girl being on birth control is foolproof. They are human and can forget a pill or not realize that antibiotics can prevent it from working. Besides BC does nothing for preventing the wide array of STDs he could get. He did cringe when I explained some of those. Some have symptoms and some may not. How would he feel if after he was married and couldn't get his wife pregnant that low and behold he got something years ago that made him sterile.
I told him that he is going to hear all kinds of stories from his guy friends. Half of them might be true. They are immature and will say anything to look cool. 
I told him there is nothing wrong with waiting till marriage. It's not easy to do but I definitely supported him if he chose that path. But if he didn't that was his choice too. I just preferred that he be of legal age so that he can take responsibility for his actions, not me and his dad.


----------



## Caribbean Man

HopelesslyJaded said:


> I hate doing this from my phone. Lol
> *I am not teaching my children abstinence or "free love". I am teaching them responsibility for themselves. I just sat down with my 13 year old this week and had "the talk"*.


........And you did very well.
Its what I tell those I come in contact with,who have been victims.
Responsibility for one's actions.


----------



## that_girl

Yea, the 'sex talk' happens often in this house. Just to talk about it casually. My mom mad it this big thing...all awkward. Omg. we just talk about stuff. 

I used to tell my brother to NEVER trust that a woman was on the pill even if she says she is....I knew girls who got knocked up on purpose that way!  FOR SHAME!

I guess it's worked. He's 23 and not a dad.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *HopelesslyJaded said:* Besides BC does nothing for preventing the wide array of STDs he could get.


 And this is huge for women as well, as some STD's can render a woman with Pelvic Inflammatory Disease (mainly chlamydia & gonorrhea) & cause infertility after she is married. Being one who suffered Infertility by another cause, this was a very difficult time for me, I likely value the blessings of "ferility" higher than many since I felt it was taken from me -at one time. 

STDs: A Sometimes Silent Fertility Threat -  

You're right, we have till they are 18 to instill values in them, after that...they are on their own. 



> In women, this damage is often pelvic inflammatory disease (PID), an infection of the uterus, fallopian tubes, or other reproductive organs that can develop as a result of chlamydia or gonorrhea—the two most common bacterial STDs and those most likely to be silent. PID can result in scarring of the fallopian tubes, making it difficult or impossible for eggs to move through them and resulting in an inability to conceive. According to the CDC, more than 1 million women each year contract PID, and 100,000 of those women become infertile because of it.


also said


> “Fifty percent of the population will acquire an STD by age 35,”....
> 
> The American Social Health Association reports that 15 percent of women who are infertile can attribute it to tubal damage caused by pelvic inflammatory disease from an untreated STD. The more PID episodes a woman has had, the greater her risk of infertility. Robert Straub, MD, of Reproductive Biology Associates in Atlanta, says, “It has been estimated that PID causes tubal disease leading to infertility at the following rates: one episode: 15 percent, two episodes: 35 percent, and three episodes: 75 percent.” Ectopic pregnancy, a potentially life-threatening situation in which the egg implants in the fallopian tube instead of in the uterus, is another concern; nine percent of women who have PID caused by chlamydia will experience ectopic pregnancy.


 We can be responsible for ourselves..but it takes 2.... what if our partner is not telling us the truth (can we trust everyone we sleep with?)... so I think responsibilty goes beyond just ourselves in this world of multiple partners.


----------



## CandieGirl

That's not restricted to those with multiple partners. Even those with only one partner (ever) have to place their faith in that partner being truthful, never straying, etc.


----------



## that_girl

I've never had an STD. Whew. I must be that 50% that doesn't get one by 35. lol.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

SimplyAmorous said:


> We can be responsible for ourselves..but it takes 2*.... what if our partner is not telling us the truth (can we trust everyone we sleep with?)...* so I think responsibilty goes beyond just ourselves in this world of multiple partners.


It may take 2 but partly for the reasons highlighted that's why I am stressing for him to take responsibility for himself. Basically until he's married or working towards marriage with someone. WEAR A CONDOM ANYWAY. That is taking responsibility for himself. Of course I hope he uses good judgement on whom he chooses to do that with but I didn't always do that or else he (my 13 year old) wouldn't exist. If I had taken the steps and insisted condom use and not been embarassed to talk to my mother and get on the pill sooner (i had just gotten them within 2 weeks of conception) I wouldn't have had that "accident". Doing so would have been taking care of me and being more responsible about my actions. You cannot trust your sex partners to do it for you no matter how honest they are. 

I went as far as explaining simpler forms of herpes to him. I told him to assume ANY sore around a girl's mouth was possibly herpes and that he could get it. Of course I told him that most people got them and that it didn't mean they had it but that it was a form of it. But...better to be safe than sorry right? I don't say these things purely for the scare tactic but so that he is informed. Knowledge is power. What you don't know can hurt you. Alot of these kids are just ignorant to this stuff and with so much red tape and controversy with sex ed in schools we cannot count on everything being taught in health class.

I also touched on the porn topic some. I know him being male he is probably going to be exposed easier from friends. This is something I do get concerned with. Without going into detail I did try to explain to him that it is not healthy for a boys his age. I guess you can say I am trying to look out for his future wife. I do not want him being warped by be addicted to porn and having a false idea of what to expect from a woman. Feeling entitled to the type of sex that can be depicted. Let's face it. We aren't talking about the VHS tape here or there we as kids may have found or the random dirty magazine. We are talking about an endless plethora of images here. I told him that they were like watching movies at the theater, they were actors and they were playing a part and that you cannot see it as reality. As far as I know, he hasn't seen one. But hey, I am mom, probably going to be the last one to know.


----------



## FalconKing

I agree will all of what's being said. Often times we have sexual partners that don't have our best interest at heart AT ALL. 

I had an ex-gf whom I had unprotected sex with. Once during intercourse when I was near ejaculation she pulled me into her and wrapped her legs around me so I couldn't break free. After that scare we went our separate ways because we obviously wanted different things

Once when I was a kid I was getting my haircut by this guy in our neighborhood. A friend of his came up to him and they were talking. They friend was sleeping with some really attractive woman apparently. They both agreed that the guy should get the girl pregnant. That way he could keep her around and keep sleeping with her. These were grown ass men. Do you know how retarded that logic sounded:crazy:

People can do some really selfish things.


----------



## MrsKy

Please tell me you're joking, FK. What kind of woman would do such a thing? I have had men try to talk me out of using birth control or condoms; I laughed at them when they even ATTEMPTED that sh!t.

I don't respect women who try to become pregnant without the agreement of their partners. Some women like to go off the Pill and then lie about "accidental" pregnancies. I know that BC is not fullproof; I just don't think that all "surprise" pregnancies are unplanned.


----------



## FalconKing

I wish I was joking. I can sigh about it now because I got out of that relationship. But at the time I was terrified. I think you are right though, I feel the same way about those "surprise" pregnancies. I heard of women taking needles and poking holes in boxes of condoms. That way even when they do have protected sex there is a higher chance of pregnancy. Also I knew another guy who was dating some semi-pro golf player. Well I say dating, all they did was have sex. But he was contemplating getting her pregnant because she was somewhat famous and beautiful. I'm glad that didn't happen. They were both about 19 and all they did was party. 

I think sometimes people are really desperate to have somebody to the point of where they don't see other as a person. Like they are just filling a void. They really don't care about the other person's interest or hobbies and they just want somebody as their boyfriend/girlfriend. That's the reasoning I come hear about people having toxic relationships and they fight all the time. You are wondering why they are still together, and suddenly someone's pregnant. And at least one of them is happy about it. How is that supposed to help things? Is this person automatically going to care for you now? I've just never seen it end well.


----------



## MrsKy

I believe that some pregnancies are legit accidents, but not most. Many women are with men who will marry them if they have a child, so they have a baby or two. I know a woman whose fiance proposed not even a month after she had his child. Let's not forget the women who are pregnant when they marry as well. 

My younger brother was dumb enough to let some trashy woman trap him with a baby. She went off the Pill without him knowing.


----------



## Mr steal your girl

FalconKing said:


> I agree will all of what's being said. Often times we have sexual partners that don't have our best interest at heart AT ALL.
> 
> I had an ex-gf whom I had unprotected sex with. Once during intercourse when I was near ejaculation she pulled me into her and wrapped her legs around me so I couldn't break free. After that scare we went our separate ways because we obviously wanted different things
> 
> Once when I was a kid I was getting my haircut by this guy in our neighborhood. A friend of his came up to him and they were talking. They friend was sleeping with some really attractive woman apparently. They both agreed that the guy should get the girl pregnant. That way he could keep her around and keep sleeping with her. These were grown ass men. Do you know how retarded that logic sounded:crazy:
> 
> People can do some really selfish things.


Lol..this is common talk among hood dudes...getting a chick pregnant just to keep her around and smash on random. It's senseless.


----------



## CandieGirl

Can we get this thread up over 1000 posts?


----------



## FalconKing

MrsKy said:


> My younger brother was dumb enough to let some trashy woman trap him with a baby. She went off the Pill without him knowing.


Some people do that even after marriage. A coworker of mine has made some poor financial decisions. He told me was he was trying to get back on his feet but his wife kept getting pregnant. They had agreed to hold off on kids for a few years and have them both work to get to a better place financially. She had 3 kids back to back. He went to the doctor because he said the birth control wasn't working. It took him some months after the last pregnancy to realize that she wasn't taking the birth control. They married young. Have 3 kids and only he works. He is willing to move for better paying jobs but she is not and threatens to leave him. He loves his kids but he has so much resentment towards her.


----------



## FalconKing

I know that most woman want to marry and have children, I do too. But if someone pushes wanting to have kids with me very hard I would probably considering ending the relationship. It makes me afraid that once a woman gets the ring and kids then she will check out on my needs. I would much rather have her think about things we want together and the kids being a product of that.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

FalconKing said:


> I know that most woman want to marry and have children, I do too. But if someone pushes wanting to have kids with me very hard I would probably considering ending the relationship. It makes me afraid that once a woman gets the ring and kids then she will check out on my needs.* I would much rather have her think about things we want together and the kids being a product of that*.


 Yes... *together*...I think it would be very healthy to talk openly / thoroughly about the type of lifestyle you envision with each other... so very wise....if one wants a larger family -siblings & all the chaos (like myself) ...or just one child, or even a no children lifestyle with lots of traveling and freedom....it's a HUGE lifestyle decision breaker early on... if not on the same page. 

We originally talked about having 3....but he knew my hearts desire was for a little girl... why we ended up having more - she was #5. No regrets, he was on board with me all the way, so long as I took care of them, watched our $$... I held up my end of the bargain. So important to be on the same page in all of these things... 

....Sex and Children.


----------



## sinnister

FalconKing said:


> I agree will all of what's being said. Often times we have sexual partners that don't have our best interest at heart AT ALL.
> 
> I had an ex-gf whom I had unprotected sex with. Once during intercourse when I was near ejaculation she pulled me into her and wrapped her legs around me so I couldn't break free. After that scare we went our separate ways because we obviously wanted different things
> 
> Once when I was a kid I was getting my haircut by this guy in our neighborhood. A friend of his came up to him and they were talking. They friend was sleeping with some really attractive woman apparently. They both agreed that the guy should get the girl pregnant. That way he could keep her around and keep sleeping with her. These were grown ass men. Do you know how retarded that logic sounded:crazy:
> 
> People can do some really selfish things.


You still could have gotten her pregnant even if you didn't uhhh errupt.

You do understand that once you make the choice to hit it raw pregnancy is a possibility.:scratchhead:


----------



## FalconKing

sinnister said:


> You still could have gotten her pregnant even if you didn't uhhh errupt.
> 
> You do understand that once you make the choice to hit it raw pregnancy is a possibility.:scratchhead:


Yep. I could have also gotten her pregnant if a condom broke. Pregnancy is a possibility anytime you have sex.

You do understand that everyone who has unprotected sex does not want children?:scratchhead:

I like riding in cars while wearing seatbelts. Some people do not. Maybe they like riding without something restricting them. It's a possibility, but I don't think they are expecting to be thrown through a windshield.


----------



## MrsKy

Thundarr said:


> To me it's obvious that many women do this and even some good ones because the motive is so strong.
> 
> Most of us have the desire to procreate first off. When a woman finds a man who she thinks will be a good provider or who has strong genetics or both depending on her priorities for her offspring then there's strong instinct for her to conceive with that man and hang onto him. I have three sons and I've explained this to them.
> 
> It's not very fair to men but this as a double standard that favors women where the topic of this thread is a double standard that favors men.


I don't think that the desire to procreate is an excuse for being manipulative and underhanded.


----------



## MrsKy

sinnister said:


> You still could have gotten her pregnant even if you didn't uhhh errupt.
> 
> You do understand that once you make the choice to hit it raw pregnancy is a possibility.:scratchhead:


It is only a _small _possibility if the woman is _honest and diligent about birth control. _

My husband and I have been together for nearly six years. I have NEVER been pregnant because we have agreed not to have children. :smthumbup:

Birth control pills have a very low failure rate when used correctly, which I have done for more than ten years.


----------



## FalconKing

MrsKy have you had any complications from birth control? Has it ever caused issues with your drive or anything else?


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

It did me FK. As soon as I got off bc my drive went up.


----------



## FalconKing

^That's what I was wondering. I know it also causes bloating in some women as well as other things. But some women have no issues. If there was a pill or a shot that kept me from being able to produce sperm I wonder what else effect it could have on my body. I'm just curious.


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

FalconKing said:


> ^That's what I was wondering. I know it also causes bloating in some women as well as other things. But some women have no issues. If there was a pill or a shot that kept me from being able to produce sperm I wonder what else effect it could have on my body. I'm just curious.


They have been working on that for awhile now.


----------



## that_girl

Yea, I didn't get pregnant for 9 years. Condoms and tracking my cycle. No BC as it effs me up ROYALLY. I didn't have sex the week before ovulation or the day of or after.

Bu my kids are 9 years apart on purpose. I knew when I ovulated.


----------



## MrsKy

Hormonal birth control makes me fat. That is the only complication.


----------



## Thundarr

FalconKing said:


> ^That's what I was wondering. I know it also causes bloating in some women as well as other things. But some women have no issues. If there was a pill or a shot that kept me from being able to produce sperm I wonder what else effect it could have on my body. I'm just curious.


It would probably make your boobs grow a little and make you want to watch the lifetime chanel :smthumbup: . Ahhhh I can't help myself


----------



## tonyarz

Past sexual encounters do not matter to me at all with my wife. I know she has been with her share of men and I have been with a few women.


----------



## anonim

MrsKy said:


> It is only a _small _possibility if the woman is _honest and diligent about birth control. _
> 
> My husband and I have been together for nearly six years. I have NEVER been pregnant because we have agreed not to have children. :smthumbup:
> 
> Birth control pills have a very low failure rate when used correctly, which I have done for more than ten years.


i think, even into marriage, that each person should take 100% responsibility for birth control, that way theres no blaming or fault if a pregnancy occurs.


----------



## stoney1215

FalconKing said:


> It amazes me how this doesn't really seem to bother people. Somebody's past says a lot about a person. I don't want to be a with a woman who places a low value on sexual intimacy or someone any man can have if they "get her drunk enough." I feel these things help shape people. Usually people don't care to divulge their past when they don't really want to divulge their own. Or they don't want to know if they number is high because they don't want to have to think about those things. Well, I like to think. And I like to share. I've shared this before but this is where i'm coming from:
> 
> I dated a woman who was a few years older than me. She was divorced. We met a book store and got into a conversation about philosophies and relationships. It took off from there. We started spending a lot of time together and then ended up being involved romantically. We discussed each other's past in the course of the relationship. She told me that she had never been unfaithful in her marriage. But later on she admitted that she had. One of her kids she is still not sure who the father is. She has also been with around 40 men. She was promiscuous in college and she had slept with a lot of married or taken men after her divorce. I felt like those things were important but it was also important about what she and I could have. Unfortunately over time I realized that these experiences help shape how she acted in relationships.
> 
> She was never used to having healthy relationship with some who always available. She would create problems to have a reason to get away from the relationship. I wasn't around enough or I was around too much. I think I did a good job of being rational and showing my points of views on things. I thought I was helping the relationship. But I realized later what she was trying to do. She had a lot of insecurities. She wanted to end the relationship but it had to be my fault so then she could say i'm just not what she needs and she won't feel guilty about the sabotage. So me being rational meant she would just have to try harder. While I would share intimate things about me, she would criticize me for them. Something I never did to her. She told me I abused drugs because I told her I took a prescription mental focus pill to cram for a biology test in college. I never said anything when she mentioned to me how she got high most of her marriage, and I think she even did cocaine. We once got into an argument in my car because she told me she felt the music I listened to was disrespectful to women. I mentioned to her how her she liked a rap artist who actually went to jail for sexually assaulting a woman, so I didn't really know what her problem was. She ended up screaming and I turned the car around and took her a$$ home. Because of that she said I was controlling. We broke up 4 times in the course of the relationship. Every time I talked with her I was calm and rational so I think she felt that wasn't enough for her to really end it. Our last break up was when we had a phone conversation about her day and she said she would call me back in a few minutes. Well I don't hear from her for 3 hours. I call her back and she answers the phone as if nothing is happening. I asked her why she couldn't text me or call me back. That was all she needed. She went on a tangent telling me i'm not her husband and my behavior was controlling. And how the way I act is a product of how my dad raised me. I never mentioned one thing negatively about her behavior when she told me how her dad was abusive and even killed himself some years ago. She wanted to break up again. I said fine. We ended talking again about a month later. I told her I could not continue communicating with her unless she apologized for how she disrespected me or at least acknowledge she had at least some fault to own up to that ended our relationship. She told me she was blocking my number
> 
> Had I not known about the issues this woman had I would not have known about why she was so passive aggressive, why she had me on a yo yo or why she just sometimes needed to initiate some type of conflict. I don't think it's ever a good idea to get involve with anyone without knowing the types of romantic or sexual decisions they made regard intimacy(at least for me). Some of you may say I just had a tough woman to deal with. But how do you know unless you ask those questions. People's behavior is a product of many things. Past decisions is one of them. I want someone that I can ask any question to and not have it be off limits. I am not a perfect but I feel the woman I am with should know what she is getting. Good and bad. For people who want to know the number or types of romantic experiences, I think this is where a lot of us are coming from. I am not a virgin and If I dated a woman that wanted a virgin I couldn't be mad at her for wanting that and wanting to end our relationship. If she sees me as a potential husband she has every right to know such things.



you are confusing her " sexual " history with " her " history . she got in relationships with married men . she had lots of sex in college . who doesnt ? but she chose married or taken men . after her divorce she was very promiscuous . that happens all the time . after a divorce men , and women feel undesired and look for attention from the opposite sex to feel desirable . she was not responsible and got pregnant is what shows who she is . not that she had lots of sex. you are confusing her " sexual " history with " her " history .


if she had relationships with guys who were not married and she only had sex with 3 guys and then got married and her and her husband did 3somes with another guy on a regular basis she could have had sex with 100 guys . then they divorced and she dated a few guys and had sex with none before you . would that change what her sexual history means ? 

you chose to ignore her history of bad relationships and now want to blame sex for your bad choice . it was your bad choice that lead to your relationship with her .


----------



## Gangland

stoney1215 said:


> you are confusing her " sexual " history with " her " history . she got in relationships with married men . she had lots of sex in college . who doesnt ? but she chose married or taken men . after her divorce she was very promiscuous . that happens all the time . after a divorce men , and women feel undesired and look for attention from the opposite sex to feel desirable . she was not responsible and got pregnant is what shows who she is . not that she had lots of sex. you are confusing her " sexual " history with " her " history .
> 
> 
> if she had relationships with guys who were not married and she only had sex with 3 guys and then got married and her and her husband did 3somes with another guy on a regular basis she could have had sex with 100 guys . then they divorced and she dated a few guys and had sex with none before you . would that change what her sexual history means ?
> 
> you chose to ignore her history of bad relationships and now want to blame sex for your bad choice . it was your bad choice that lead to your relationship with her .


Horrible advice. Sexual history is not some separate entity from history itself.

Also it has been scientificaly proven that a woman with more partners has a harder time bonding with the next partner.
(not so for a man.) proof


That being said... a woman with more sexual partners by default has proven she cannot commit and or cannot chose a man who will commit (bad choices). Just because "everyone does it" does not mean "I should be ok with it it." a lot of people do cocaine. 

I'll give you an analogy.

There's a tiger, and there's a kitten.

There's a chance the tiger will cuddle you and lick you and let you pet it.

There's a chance the kitten will scratch your face and bite you.

but there is no EFFING WAY I'm going to take the chance that the tiger will love and cuddle me like a kitten, I'll ALWAYS avoid the tiger and go to the kitten.

Same with a womans sexual history, yes theres a chance it could mean nothing. but theres NO EFFING WAY I'm going to commit to a woman with an unreasonable amount of partners and not know. She wouldn't even get the chance with me.

Women know this, deep down they know that a man is less likely to commit the more partners she has. That's why they try to shame you, lie, or avoid this question.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

stoney1215 said:


> you are confusing her " sexual " history with " her " history . she got in relationships with married men . she had lots of sex in college . who doesnt ?


Just saying ....not everyone DOES everyone - just cause they are in college. The majority of the people we hang with did not engage in this type of lifestyle. Our oldest son is one of them, 3rd year in a State College...

He is waiting for a woman who shares similar values as himself...it surely *is* getting harder & harder to find these days due to our modern views on sex, I'll give you that .... but they do still exist.. .


----------



## tobio

Gangland said:


> That being said... a woman with more sexual partners by default has proven she cannot commit and or cannot chose a man who will commit (bad choices).


That's not actually true though.

It reads like you are seeing things very black and white. Either a woman is sexually selective or she isn't.

People go through different phases in their lives. You could pick a woman who has had what you say is "more" sexual partners, whereas in actual fact she may have had a number of monogamous long-term relationships, where she has been faithful, and has maybe had shorter-term relationships outside those, and/or flings. None of that points to a woman who cannot commit or who cannot chose a man who will commit.


----------



## Gangland

tobio said:


> That's not actually true though.
> 
> It reads like you are seeing things very black and white. Either a woman is sexually selective or she isn't.
> 
> People go through different phases in their lives. You could pick a woman who has had what you say is "more" sexual partners, whereas in actual fact she may have had a number of monogamous long-term relationships, where she has been faithful, and has maybe had shorter-term relationships outside those, and/or flings. None of that points to a woman who cannot commit or who cannot chose a man who will commit.


The reason I'm going black and white with it is because, well it's black and white. she's either promiscous or she isn't. She very well may have had a number of monogamous long term relationships (this is called serial monogamy not monogamy btw) but when I ask her her number and she says, say 13, I'm not going to believe that she loved 13 guys. and if she did. I'm not going to believe that ours will last any longer than the other 13 guys, and thus, I'm not going to commit my LIFE to her.

you're confusing commitment with fidelity. I didn't say she was likely to cheat (she is).. I said she was less likely to commit, for LIFE which is what marriage for me is about. and is what she's proven she can't do.... 13 times.


----------



## FalconKing

buttercup21 said:


> Um so my husband had groupies and lots of flings/one night stands and threesomes.
> *Is he that bad too?*
> Why does it affect you so much?


I don't know. I don't know anything about your situation. 

Why would I not care about the decisions my future life partner has made in regards to life decisions, money, and *RELATIONSHIPS*?


----------



## FalconKing

stoney1215 said:


> you are confusing her " sexual " history with " her " history . she got in relationships with married men . she had lots of sex in college . who doesnt ? but she chose married or taken men . after her divorce she was very promiscuous . that happens all the time . after a divorce men , and women feel undesired and look for attention from the opposite sex to feel desirable . she was not responsible and got pregnant is what shows who she is . not that she had lots of sex. you are confusing her " sexual " history with " her " history .
> 
> 
> if she had relationships with guys who were not married and she only had sex with 3 guys and then got married and her and her husband did 3somes with another guy on a regular basis she could have had sex with 100 guys . then they divorced and she dated a few guys and had sex with none before you . would that change what her sexual history means ?
> 
> you chose to ignore her history of bad relationships and now want to blame sex for your bad choice . it was your bad choice that lead to your relationship with her .


You are asking me to accept that everyone who goes to college is promiscuous? I wasn't. A lot of my friends weren't. I also know some women who are divorced and don't sleep around. Some people do not have a desire for those experiences. Also, you are missing the point. If you look at someone's history it can give you an insight on what they value and what's important to them. When I first met my girlfriend, she did not tell me those things. They came out during the course of the relationship. Since we were already romantically involved I tried to concentrate on just what she and I could have. But looking at the issues we had and how she responded, obviously her past experiences play a part in that. One thing irresponsible people do is have many sexual partners without being in committed relationships. 

Based on how you tried to defend this and your views about sex in college and divorce, perhaps your advice would be best served addressing someone else. I can't really take any of it.


----------



## 45188

I can't have sex with somebody I'm not absolutely crazy in love with. I just can't. I'm not a Christian, I'm an atheist. I just feel like it has to mean something other than a cheap thrill. I've never cheated but I've been cheated on. Most of my friends who slept around a lot also slept around a lot even while they were in relationships. Not saying thats what happens to everyone but it seemed to happen a LOT to promiscuous types. 

Because sex means nothing to them, while its something emotional to other people.

OP I also want to say to YOU that whenever I get very close to somebody, if I sense danger, I run. I find any excuse I can to run. If I suspect my boyfriend crushing on another girl, I run. Run like the wind. Its not from sexual history for me. It's from fear of being hurt.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Gangland said:


> The reason I'm going black and white with it is because, well it's black and white. she's either promiscous or she isn't. She very well may have had a number of monogamous long term relationships (this is called serial monogamy not monogamy btw) but when I ask her her number and she says, say 13, I'm not going to believe that she loved 13 guys. and if she did. I'm not going to believe that ours will last any longer than the other 13 guys, and thus, I'm not going to commit my LIFE to her.
> 
> you're confusing commitment with fidelity. I didn't say she was likely to cheat (she is).. I said she was less likely to commit, for LIFE which is what marriage for me is about. and is what she's proven she can't do.... 13 times.


But you are assuming there is only one kind of love - the kind that results in a life-long commitment. Most of us realize that as we date, we may love our significant other, but that it is/was not a life-long love. People often enter into a relationship without making a life-long committment. That's called dating. That it did not end up in marriage does not mean they can't commit for life, only that they chose not to commit to that person.


----------



## JCD

Interesting factoid from a study on infidelity.

An Unfaithful woman had 7. something partners.

A Faithful woman had 3.7 or so

These are averages and your mileage may vary.


----------



## JCD

Tall Average Guy said:


> But you are assuming there is only one kind of love - the kind that results in a life-long commitment. Most of us realize that as we date, we may love our significant other, but that it is/was not a life-long love. People often enter into a relationship without making a life-long committment. That's called dating. That it did not end up in marriage does not mean they can't commit for life, only that they chose not to commit to that person.


Let's hope while they are playing at 'love/commitment-lite', that they can figure out the whole 'life long commitment' thing.

Because pulling the ejector handle every time your relationship hits some turbulance multiple times does show something. Now you are postulating that she hasn't met 'The One True Love'.

Others might take a different lesson


----------



## Gangland

Tall Average Guy said:


> But you are assuming there is only one kind of love - the kind that results in a life-long commitment. Most of us realize that as we date, we may love our significant other, but that it is/was not a life-long love. People often enter into a relationship without making a life-long committment. That's called dating. That it did not end up in marriage does not mean they can't commit for life, only that they chose not to commit to that person.


I agree with this.. but the topic of this forum is marriage. Given that, I assumed what we were talking about is a life long commitment. 

Also, you make dating sound like it''s an end, in an of itself. What is dating if not screening for the person you want to spend your life with? If that's not what it is for you than that's what I I'm saying I have a problem with because you my friend, are promiscous and what you value isn't what I value. If you're already going into it knowing it's going to end and it's just a fling, that's not commitment. In that case no, you are correct, it doesn't matter.

I'm saying it matters in the scope of a lifetime commitment.

P.S (I didn't mean that as an attack on you Tall Guy I was just saying it in the context of the woman being someone I had decided not to commit to)


----------



## Lon

Gangland said:


> I agree with this.. but the topic of this forum is marriage. Given that, I assumed what we were talking about is a life long commitment.
> 
> Also, you make dating sound like it''s an end, in an of itself. What is dating if not screening for the person you want to spend your life with? If that's not what it is for you than that's what I I'm saying I have a problem with because you my friend, are promiscous and what you value isn't what I value. If you're already going into it knowing it's going to end and it's just a fling, that's not commitment. In that case no, you are correct, it doesn't matter.
> 
> I'm saying it matters in the scope of a lifetime commitment.
> 
> P.S (I didn't mean that as an attack on you Tall Guy I was just saying it in the context of the woman being someone I had decided not to commit to)


You didn't really explain HOW it matters? I was going to write pretty much exactly what Tall Average Guy was wrote - that the assumption you are making as that dating is only intended to screen through marital candidates.

I am of the opinion that dating is whatever you make it to be, and if it has the side benefit of filtering through the low quality participants to narrow down the selection to someone you want to commit to in marriage, then that is ok too!

After my failed marriage I have come to realize that dating isn't about marriage, dating is about living - men and women are supposed to come together and know each other, nothing wrong with monogamy or commitment at all, but they are things that are not necessary by everyone standards their entire lifecycles.


----------



## 45188

It does matter. Statistically people who sleep around a lot pre relationship are the most likely to cheat while in a relationship.


----------



## Gangland

Lon said:


> You didn't really explain HOW it matters? I was going to write pretty much exactly what Tall Average Guy was wrote - that the assumption you are making as that dating is only intended to screen through marital candidates.
> 
> I am of the opinion that dating is whatever you make it to be, and if it has the side benefit of filtering through the low quality participants to narrow down the selection to someone you want to commit to in marriage, then that is ok too!
> 
> After my failed marriage I have come to realize that dating isn't about marriage, dating is about living - men and women are supposed to come together and know each other, nothing wrong with monogamy or commitment at all, but they are things that are not necessary by everyone standards their entire lifecycles.


but I did explain why it matters, when I posted this link earlier.

proof

It's true everyone's free to chose there own lifestyle. I'm telling you that if marriage is what you're looking for the number counts. If you live a lifestyle that it doesn't matter to you how many c***s you've ridden while "dating". Then you do not value what I value and I will not commit to you. And that's BEFORE the above study, It's that simple.

I'll say it again though. If you've been in multiple monogamous relationships and have NOT managed to make them last repeatidly (say, 13 times). The problem is with you. Either you are picking wrong (bad choices), you don't value sex (promiscuity) or there's something wrong with you that now one will stay. (You're not a good mate.)

Either way, it's you.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Gangland said:


> I'll say it again though. If you've been in multiple monogamous relationships and have NOT managed to make them last repeatidly (say, 13 times). The problem is with you. Either you are picking wrong (bad choices), you don't value sex (promiscuity) or there's something wrong with you that no one will stay. (You're not a good mate.)
> 
> Either way, it's you.










Gangland...are you my husband [email protected]#$%.... We talked about this one night months ago..... me asking his opinion on what this thread is all about....the #'s question.... and this is near exactly the way he looks at it...all 3 things you said here he brought up..... he wouldn't voice this on the forum though (he does post now & then)....he isn't as bold in wanting to get slammed & offend others. 

But yeah... This is how he views it also... the higher the sex partners (relationships included)... and still if they are single after years & years, not finding "Lasting love & commitment"..... the more likelihood something is seriously wrong WITH THEM.. whether it be: 

1. *Their bad choices* *in partners.* 
2. *It tends to speak if noone is sweeping them off their feet wanting to commit to them.* .... 
3. *They are just in it for the pleasurable BANG & have little or no interest in a lifelong commitment & settling down*.


My husband wouldn't even sleep with a woman without an emotional connection, even in his Higher Test youth ...he just didn't feel that was right ... he'd choose his hand & wait for







.... so these things meant a lot to him.. this is also the type of man I wanted, even prayed for. Harder to find this attitude in men.. but there is a small % out there.


----------



## Lon

That link doesn't work.

If it matters to you that a potential spouse has a high number, because you can't come to respect them or believe you could ever be compatible with such a person, that is your choice... we all have our own preferences, and that is perfectly allowed. As for myself I suppose I just am a little more tolerant, or less judging of a person for not placing quite as much importance on their past than you do.

I just think it is unwise, and incorrect, to draw inferences about whether or not a person can commit to a lifelong relationship simply from some stat.

Promiscuity does not equal bad moral code or disloyalty, though people with no more code or problems being loyal are probably more likely to be promiscuous, which is why that statistic is pointless. If you are looking for patterns that may distinguish a cheater from a non-cheater you shouldn't be looking purely at their number of partners you should be looking for a history of cheating.

But if you want to continue making statistical arguments about indicators of marital infidelity, I've also read many stats that suggest women who are more educated are more likely to cheat, women with higher incomes are more likely to cheat, women with a higher sex drive are more likely to cheat... so by statistical argument your best chance to avoid marrying a cheating woman is to find one that is uneducated, unemployed and doesn't like sex.

As for me, I will make my own determination about whether a woman I may be interested can be faithful, I will judge her on her character and not rely on her number very much at all. And I will tell her that, because I'd take a woman with a high number but who is honest about it over a woman who feels she needs to lie about it. In fact most people in successful long term marriages I know had atleast one spouse who had a sordid past but then settled down. And I know of many marriages that failed largely in part because one spouse felt they had a need to sow the wild oats they never did when they were younger.

And for the record, I am with Kipani and SA's H, in that I place a high value on sexual intimacy, I am not the kind of person that can easily have casual sex... I just bond too quick and it could lead to serious problems... I am not promiscuous at all, never have been, doubt I ever will be.


----------



## that_girl

:sleeping:

I don't think people should be monogamous at young ages. That just wastes years and usually is full of drama.


----------



## FalconKing

Lon I see your perspective. Kipani,I met my ex-gf in a bookstore. I had no idea she had that kind of history. I do for the most part avoid women with numbers considerably higher than mine, women who smoke, women who party while drunk(or get drunk often), women who have cheated, women who have had long term toxic relationships, and a few other things that just make me nervous. Some I just don't find attractive. Others, I just can't relate to those experiences or the thought processes when making those decisions. My ex-girlfriend had most of these qualities. I gave her the benefit of the doubt as well as a lot of patience. It's just my experience with her showed me why I try to avoid people with those kinds of experiences in the first place. If you don't have much practice in healthy relationships, sometimes it's all good, but often you bring all the negative baggage with you wherever you go. I think someone who has been more selective of her sexual partners may be someone who values that connection more. But if someone has no interest in sex, that's something I also try to avoid. I know many people have a don't ask don't tell when it comes to their relationship partners. To me that's like playing russian roulette.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

JCD said:


> Let's hope while they are playing at 'love/commitment-lite', that they can figure out the whole 'life long commitment' thing.
> 
> Because pulling the ejector handle every time your relationship hits some turbulance multiple times does show something. Now you are postulating that she hasn't met 'The One True Love'.
> 
> Others might take a different lesson


Why does one prevent the other? Dating is about figuring out the person that you want. Just because you realize that the person you are dating is not the person you need for the rest of your life does not make it "committment light" or running at the first sign of trouble. Sometimes it can be the smart thing to do. Very few get it right the first time (or even the tenth time when it comes to dating.


----------



## Gangland

Lon said:


> That link doesn't work.
> 
> If it matters to you that a potential spouse has a high number, because you can't come to respect them or believe you could ever be compatible with such a person, that is your choice... we all have our own preferences, and that is perfectly allowed. As for myself I suppose I just am a little more tolerant, or less judging of a person for not placing quite as much importance on their past than you do.
> 
> I just think it is unwise, and incorrect, to draw inferences about whether or not a person can commit to a lifelong relationship simply from some stat.
> 
> Promiscuity does not equal bad moral code or disloyalty, though people with no more code or problems being loyal are probably more likely to be promiscuous, which is why that statistic is pointless. If you are looking for patterns that may distinguish a cheater from a non-cheater you shouldn't be looking purely at their number of partners you should be looking for a history of cheating.
> 
> But if you want to continue making statistical arguments about indicators of marital infidelity, I've also read many stats that suggest women who are more educated are more likely to cheat, women with higher incomes are more likely to cheat, women with a higher sex drive are more likely to cheat... so by statistical argument your best chance to avoid marrying a cheating woman is to find one that is uneducated, unemployed and doesn't like sex.
> 
> As for me, I will make my own determination about whether a woman I may be interested can be faithful, I will judge her on her character and not rely on her number very much at all. And I will tell her that, because I'd take a woman with a high number but who is honest about it over a woman who feels she needs to lie about it. In fact most people in successful long term marriages I know had atleast one spouse who had a sordid past but then settled down. And I know of many marriages that failed largely in part because one spouse felt they had a need to sow the wild oats they never did when they were younger.
> 
> And for the record, I am with Kipani and SA's H, in that I place a high value on sexual intimacy, I am not the kind of person that can easily have casual sex... I just bond too quick and it could lead to serious problems... I am not promiscuous at all, never have been, doubt I ever will be.


It is true and the number may matter differently to everyone, some may not outright leave the girl for it. but completely not taking it into consideration is foolish. It's like interviewing for a high stakes (high stakes being life committment) job and not checking to see if the person is qualified.

And yes it is true I've read every study about women's stats and infidelity, but as I've said before, commitment and fidelity are not the same thing per say. They involve each other but are not the same. Commitment to me means "I'm making a promise that this is forever" more or less. Fidelity is "I'm making a promise to forsake all others." Both require commitment. but what I'm talking about is the first promise. I wouldn't leave because I think she would cheat. I'd leave because I don't think she's ready, or knows if she's ready (which means she's not ready) to commit, as my points have shown 

Also, you are saying it is unwise to look at a general stat and make a determination based off of it. ie. The majority of alligators, but not all alligators, when showing signs of hunger, will kill you. Is it not wise to stay away from alligators? or must you get close and make a determination whether or not this alligator will kill or not?

The majority of sexualy promiscous people, but not all, have made bad choices repeatidly or don't value sex in the way I do, when I'm speaking of marriage. Is it not safe to stay away from sexually promiscous people? or must I get close and make a determination whether or not this person is bad.

Like FalconKing I do see your perspective and I agree with most of it, but to not judge a person on their past to me is the exact "feel good, do good, don't hurt others feelings" stuff disney fed us as a child that gets a person into trouble in the first place.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Gangland said:


> I agree with this.. but the topic of this forum is marriage. Given that, I assumed what we were talking about is a life long commitment.


Yes, but you are lumping in dating when a person may not have been looking for such a committment.



> Also, you make dating sound like it''s an end, in an of itself. What is dating if not screening for the person you want to spend your life with? If that's not what it is for you than that's what I I'm saying I have a problem with because you my friend, are promiscous and what you value isn't what I value. If you're already going into it knowing it's going to end and it's just a fling, that's not commitment. In that case no, you are correct, it doesn't matter.
> 
> I'm saying it matters in the scope of a lifetime commitment.


Dating is an end often times. Certainly in high school and college it is often just figuring out what you want and need. But sometimes, people intend it to be something special, but then realize that they are not compatible as people. 

I do think it comes down to where you view sex in a relationship. Without trying to speak for you, I gather that you believe sex should be reserved for people who truly love each other and are intending a life long committment. Thus, it is probably pretty late in the relationship building process for you. That clarifies your position, which is not wrong but not one that works for me. I think sex is part of figuring out whether a relationship can be long term, so to me it is earlier.



> P.S (I didn't mean that as an attack on you Tall Guy I was just saying it in the context of the woman being someone I had decided not to commit to)


No attack taken. This is just two people having a discussion about different ways to look at things.


----------



## Gangland

SimplyAmorous said:


> Gangland...are you my husband [email protected]#$%.... We talked about this one night months ago..... me asking his opinion on what this thread is all about....the #'s question.... and this is near exactly the way he looks at it...all 3 things you said here he brought up..... he wouldn't voice this on the forum though (he does post now & then)....he isn't as bold in wanting to get slammed & offend others.
> 
> But yeah... This is how he views it also... the higher the sex partners (relationships included)... and still if they are single after years & years, not finding "Lasting love & commitment"..... the more likelihood something is seriously wrong WITH THEM.. whether it be:
> 
> 1. *Their bad choices* *in partners.*
> 2. *It tends to speak if noone is sweeping them off their feet wanting to commit to them.* ....
> 3. *They are just in it for the pleasurable BANG & have little or no interest in a lifelong commitment & settling down*.
> 
> 
> My husband wouldn't even sleep with a woman without an emotional connection, even in his Higher Test youth ...he just didn't feel that was right ... he'd choose his hand & wait for
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .... so these things meant a lot to him.. this is also the type of man I wanted, even prayed for. Harder to find this attitude in men.. but there is a small % out there.


 Your husband gets it then. It is harder to find I think... most have been brainwashed into beliveing that a requirment of commitment is to kiss as many as you can until you find the one. Even though our forefathers proved this incorrect for at least 1800 years, with virgin brides, less divorce, happier women (and men statistically speaking), and arranged marriage.

I'm not advocating going back to that.. but to say that it's a must (at least for comittment) to get it wrong 10 or more times before you get it right is not true to me.


I've got not problem with promiscous people or people who chose to do this... I just won't waist my time trying to commit to them or get them to commit to me.


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## Caribbean Man

Gangland said:


> *but to not judge a person on their past to me is the exact "feel good, do good, don't hurt others feelings" stuff disney fed us as a child that gets a person into trouble in the first place.*


:iagree:

If a person's sexual history doesn't or shouldn't matter, then why do so many people LIE about it?
Why not simply own your past?

Saying that it should not matter is in itself an act of manipulation, deception and control.
A person cannot dictate what another person should or should not value as important_ to them_ in a relationship.


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## 2ntnuf

TallAverageGuy,

I know I'm late to this discussion but I have tried to follow it a bit and have come to the conclusion that I am similar to Lon on sex. While I doubt that will ever change, since there is nothing wrong with placing sex in either importance, it's just preference. I do believe it slows a person's ability to make a good choice of partners.

I wonder now, if you can tell me? Is the reason you place sex early in the relationship stage because you believe it is so simple to determine whether you are compatible sexually, it is something you/we need anyway and you don't have to spend as much time building deep feelings just to find out your not compatible?

I hope this makes sense. I'm trying.


----------



## cloudwithleggs

FalconKing said:


> Once when I was a kid I was getting my haircut by this guy in our neighborhood. A friend of his came up to him and they were talking. They friend was sleeping with some really attractive woman apparently. They both agreed that the guy should get the girl pregnant. That way he could keep her around and keep sleeping with her. These were grown ass men. Do you know how retarded that logic sounded:crazy:
> 
> People can do some really selfish things.


I told my estranged i didn't want any more children, i have loads of proof where he refused to wear condoms as in written, i did try the pill, but was removed from it for medical grounds, so i was infertile for a while with my thyroid being out, but once treated i got pregnant immediately, i didn't know it was my thyroid causing the infertility. I was seriously ill in the pregnancy and he left me to get on with it on my own.

I hadn't slept with him in this time, then considered giving it another go, for our child's sake, well lots of lies later and marriage on his bequest with guilt and false promises, so.

skip forward a couple of years, he is on chemo and assures me he is infertile and it couldn't be possible to get me pregnant, he yet again refused to use condoms, stupidly believe him, wrong, wrong and instantly pregnant with now the added complication of the chemo drugs on the sperm and what effect that has on the baby, seriously ill again in that pregnancy enough so that they wanted to abort the baby even at 22 weeks, i lost 3 stones in weight, what did he do, well he left us at the beginning of the pregnancy, to cope on my own with being seriously ill and a toddler and a older a child, well he had stuff he had to sort out in LA which was far more important then us.

yes i was stupid and it will never happen again.

So some people are selfish but he likes to call himself *daddy!*

I can't wait to try other people


----------



## FalconKing

2ntnuf said:


> TallAverageGuy,
> 
> I know I'm late to this discussion but I have tried to follow it a bit and have come to the conclusion that I am similar to Lon on sex. While I doubt that will ever change, since there is nothing wrong with placing sex in either importance, it's just preference. I do believe it slows a person's ability to make a good choice of partners.
> 
> I wonder now, if you can tell me? Is the reason you place sex early in the relationship stage because you believe it is so simple to determine whether you are compatible sexually, it is something you/we need anyway and you don't have to spend as much time building deep feelings just to find out your not compatible?
> 
> I hope this makes sense. I'm trying.


You know it really trips me out when you say really wise stuff with that ape avatar.:circle: It reminds me of that Rise of the Apes movie. 

Your question is something even I struggle with. I don't have one night stands or sex friends but sex is very important to me in a relationship. There are times when you wait for quite a long time only to find out that the person you are with doesn't give sex much thought or is prudish and not very knowledgeable about their sexual desires. When i'm single I don't mind looking at porn. But in a relationship I feel it's not good. But if i'm seeing a woman and we are going slow and the relationship hasn't progressed to the point of having sex, cutting out porn is challenging. It's difficult to constantly fight these desires if my wanting of intimacy is quite strong. But I don't want her to allow me that privilege of having porn as an outlet. Hence my struggle. Hopefully i'll be able to explain all these things to her without looking like a freak:yawn2:


----------



## Tall Average Guy

2ntnuf said:


> TallAverageGuy,
> 
> I know I'm late to this discussion but I have tried to follow it a bit and have come to the conclusion that I am similar to Lon on sex. While I doubt that will ever change, since there is nothing wrong with placing sex in either importance, it's just preference. I do believe it slows a person's ability to make a good choice of partners.
> 
> I wonder now, if you can tell me? Is the reason you place sex early in the relationship stage because you believe it is so simple to determine whether you are compatible sexually, it is something you/we need anyway and you don't have to spend as much time building deep feelings just to find out your not compatible?
> 
> I hope this makes sense. I'm trying.


I don't know that I would characterize it as "so earlier" so much as earlier than when you start seriously considering the other person as a potential lifemate. When that is really depends on the person and the relationship.

That being said, I say this because sex is an important part of marriage and a lifetime committment. Having sex, determining chemistry and figuring out sexual compatibility are important. Some people believe that sex is a special event that only should occur when everything is fine, while others think of sex as a bonding time when things are not going as well. Neither is wrong, but talking about it, in my mind, is not sufficient. You need to see your partners actions (or inaction) to truly understand them. 

But this is just one average tall guy's opinion, so take it for whay it is worth.


----------



## Gangland

Tall Average Guy said:


> Yes, but you are lumping in dating when a person may not have been looking for such a committment.
> 
> 
> 
> Dating is an end often times. Certainly in high school and college it is often just figuring out what you want and need. But sometimes, *people intend it to be something special, but then realize that they are not compatible as people*. Emphasis mine
> 
> I do think it comes down to where you view sex in a relationship. Without trying to speak for you, I gather that you believe sex should be reserved for people who truly love each other and are intending a life long committment. Thus, it is probably pretty late in the relationship building process for you. That clarifies your position, which is not wrong but not one that works for me. I think sex is part of figuring out whether a relationship can be long term, so to me it is earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> No attack taken. This is just two people having a discussion about different ways to look at things.


I can agree with that no doubt.. sometimes it is just that. and that's why I allow some lee-way... I'm not asking for a virgin, but when you get up there in number to 10+? I start to wonder, why did she try and it not work 10+ times? and that's why the number counts.

Part of it is because I'm not of the belief that there is a ONE for you. That you find the best you can, commit, and make a ONE. because of that... I see it as a bad sign if you continuially jump from branch to branch in search of the ONE. Because who's to say I'm the ONE? How would you know? You wouldn't because you didn't know the other 10 times. You may well be ready now, but how could I know? based on your previous choices, you have proven that you don't know what you're looking for. I'm not willing to take that chance. and I don't want to be the one you "settle for" now that you're tired in your search.

I lump dating in, but only as a search for a lifelong commitment. in that search, I'd perfer it if my partner valued her body enough and made smart enough choices not to give it up so easily. To me that's a sign of her character and ability to make a choice using her mind and not her va jay jay, which will come in handy when the going gets rough in a lifelong commitment.

I'm aware our culture sort of frowns on a woman supposedly "suppressing" her sexuality, but I'm not of the view that such a thing is suppression, and I'm not of the view that it matters if it is, to me it's just smart.


and @ Lon sorry about the Link, I'll try to find it again when I'm not at work.

It basically states that the more partners a woman has the less likely she is to form deep bonds with subsequent partners.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

FalconKing said:


> When i'm single I don't mind looking at porn. But in a relationship I feel it's not good. But if i'm seeing a woman and we are going slow and the relationship hasn't progressed to the point of having sex, cutting out porn is challenging. It's difficult to constantly fight these desires if my wanting of intimacy is quite strong. But I don't want her to allow me that privilege. Hence my struggle. Hopefully i'll be able to explain all these things to her without looking like a freak:yawn2:


How about this...

Back in our dating yrs...I wasn't exactly thinking of his masterbating habits...sex talk....so very taboo to ever bring up (Wish I could go back & change this )....though I knew he had hundreds of Playboys under his bed ...

When I learned 4 yrs ago he didn't masterbate our entire marriage...I was shocked (outside of 1 time- a story there) ... even though he still looked online to Playboy bunnies...he waited for me......

I also learned he stopped







while we were dating ! I was like [email protected]#$%^ 

I asked when ...his response......"when you started putting your hands down my pants". ..... then it all became about "US", my place to satisfy his longing .. ..and I remember ....I could hardly touch him & he was ready to blow.... Really that was very sweet of him, I never asked such a thing, that is just how he felt....even though we still didn't have intercourse for years. 

He had a bucketload of restraint, my husband. (He did say before that, he was







up to 3 times a day)..... I never knew any of this - till I asked. I wasn't as self- restraining as he was.


----------



## Caribbean Man

SimplyAmorous said:


> How about this...
> 
> Back in our dating yrs...I wasn't exactly thinking of his masterbating habits...sex talk....so very taboo to ever bring up (Wish I could go back & change this )....though I knew he had hundreds of Playboys under his bed ...
> 
> When I learned 4 yrs ago he didn't masterbate our entire marriage...I was shocked (outside of 1 time- a story there) ... even though he still looked online to Playboy bunnies...he waited for me......
> 
> I also learned he stopped
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> while we were dating ! I was like [email protected]#$%^
> 
> I asked when ...his response......"when you started putting your hands down my pants". ..... then it all became about "US", my place to satisfy his longing .. ..and I remember ....I could hardly touch him & he was ready to blow.... Really that was very sweet of him, I never asked such a thing, that is just how he felt....even though we still didn't have intercourse for years.
> 
> He had a bucketload of restraint, my husband. (He did say before that, he was
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> up to 3 times a day)..... I never knew any of this - till I asked. I wasn't as self- restraining as he was.


SA,
I have just one simple question fro you.

Where do you get those " smileys ?"
Sometimes they really make me laugh!


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## 2ntnuf

Gangland - It basically states that the more partners a woman has the less likely she is to form deep bonds with subsequent partners. - Gangland

I think this is true but, I want to add men to this, also. I think sex is psychologically significant enough that treating it as lightly as a handshake requires emotional callousness. This is the extreme, however. I think there are varying degrees depending on the amount and randomness as well as the type of sex engaged in with potential life partners.

@ FalconKing, Yeah it's the confused orang.  Had to get it when I saw it, cause that is how I usually feel.


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## Ostera

I have been reading this thread and I am with Falcon King on this. Sexual history is important. let me tell you my current situation. I am a little older than I think most of you are (50). My soon to be ex is 52. I have known her for 7 years. We were casual friends and would run into each other after work at the Am Legion. She was engaged and I had a girlfriend. After getting to know her and her fiance it became apparent that this guy was not right for her. He was very controlling, etc. My girlfriend made friends with this lady. After months went by I told her that she shouldn't marry that guy because I could see how he was. She said it is too late that the invitations had already went out, etc. Needless to say they the were only married 18 months. By that time I had broken it off with my girlfriend of 2.5 yrs. Well I ended up dating my soon to be wife. We moved way to fast. Due to financial issues (we both owned home that were upside down) she moved in with me after 3 months of seeing each other everyday and spending nights together. We live together for 1 yrs and married. We have been married for 2 yrs and a month. She left me while I was at work. Now for the part were I was a fool.. We have seperated at least 6 times during this period. We saught counseling. this is where I found out my wife real past. I knew she had 4 kids from 3 different guys (red flag), But I was so attracted to this very beautiful woman (Hispanic). In counseling she disclosed that she had cheated on every guy she has been with since she was 17. Her two youngest kids are from the same guy. they are 18 &20. She had know this guy since she was 14. She was married to him for 15 yrs. She cheated on him the entire time. She has had affairs with married men.. When she finally left him she married his best friend he had known since grade school. Of course they all used to b-b-que, etc because they all had kids the same age. That of course ruined two family friendship and my wife lost all of her friends due to this. The next husband she cheated on 3 times during the 18 month period they were married. When we first started dating she wanted to end it after 1 month. But came back and told me I was 'finally' her soulmate. Within 2 months of us being together she cheated on me with her most recent ex. I figured it was karma coming my way because I hadn't been an angel in my past. So I tried to forgive her because I had deep feelings for her. As of today, she has cheated on me at least 6 or 7 times. What I was ignorant of is the fact I knew she had issues, but when the counselor diagnosed her as having Borderline Personality Disorder I started reading. These people are not capable of having a true romantic relationship. The are emotionally detached and have self serving tendencies. My relationship has been a complete wreck throughout. I failed to ask about her past. She would have lied anyway to get what she wanted. I should have listened to her older daughter at the beginning... she casually mentioned to me once, "You don't really want to be with my mother. She is a black widow. She chews men up and spits them out." What a fool I was to think I was different. A leopard doesn't change their spots.


----------



## Lon

Gangland said:


> The majority of alligators, but not all alligators, when showing signs of hunger, will kill you. Is it not wise to stay away from alligators? or must you get close and make a determination whether or not this alligator will kill or not?


Actually, all alligators will try to eat you if they are hungry and you trigger their primal instinct to try to eat you. If you are an Alligator hunter (ie looking for an alligator) then you are simply being wise to recognize they may be hungry and wanting to eat you and take appropriate steps to protect yourself. But if it's a good alligator and you want it, you will not take it personally that it wants to eat you, and you will try to capture it anyway. Just because it can eat you doesn't mean you will get eaten, or else every person would have been eaten by an alligator by now.



> The majority of sexualy promiscous people, but not all, have made bad choices repeatidly or don't value sex in the way I do, when I'm speaking of marriage. Is it not safe to stay away from sexually promiscous people? or must I get close and make a determination whether or not this person is bad.


It probably is "safe" to stay away from people who've had a past history, it is also safe to avoid a lot of things that we don't in order to find more fulfillement. But you are going to miss out on some quality people in life - yes the past plays a part in who we are but even from promiscuity can one develop real integrity of character. I will not judge based on their number until after I know their character because that is what is truly important to me, and if they have good character and have used their experiences to shape themselves into a good person despite that past, then why would I be so foolish to write them off because of some obselete quantity? If it's in the past, the number is not very relevant to me. Likewise, if they choose to remain promiscuous, that shows through in their character, and I would have no interest in attaching myself to that.

I judge a person based on the actions they demonstrate in the now, they cannot change the past even if they wanted to, I look at past mistakes as opporutnities to build character, even if that number is 10+, 20+, 100+? (Like you I also doubt that someone with such a high number would have the qualities I value, but until I meet them and get to see their character I would have no way to know) nor am I going to go around asking women's numbers before I even get to know them, so before I may discover their number I've already started forming decisions of whether they could have value to me or not.

It doesn't mean you have to get close to people you just are not interested in, but then how do you even get close enough to learn their number? Or are you drawing inferences and assumptions about that based on other qualities too? All I would suggest is that if you are dating and you do meet someone who you hit it off with and enjoy being with, don't write them off if you find they have a high number of partners.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Caribbean Man said:


> SA,
> I have just one simple question fro you.
> 
> Where do you get those " smileys ?"
> Sometimes they really make me laugh!


I got on this smiley kick awhile back...Husband had a bunch of emoticons saved, then I started searching for my own ~ you can find near anything if you look hard enough.

Here is a good one >>  Top rated and most popular emoticons

I also go to "Google images" type in a subject + emoticon & wala... never know what you might come across - some interesting emoticon sites come up that way.


----------



## Gangland

Lon said:


> Actually, all alligators will try to eat you if they are hungry and you trigger their primal instinct to try to eat you. If you are an Alligator hunter (ie looking for an alligator) then you are simply being wise to recognize they may be hungry and wanting to eat you and take appropriate steps to protect yourself. But if it's a good alligator and you want it, you will not take it personally that it wants to eat you, and you will try to capture it anyway. Just because it can eat you doesn't mean you will get eaten, or else every person would have been eaten by an alligator by now. .



You're right I wouldn't take it personally if an alligator tried to eat me, because that's what they do. That's my point, I wouldn't take it personally if the person ended up screwing me over either, because that's what they do, I chose to pursue them regardles if I knew they were showing signs of being a hungry alligator or not. I only have myself to blame in that case. That's why I choose not to capture alligators. That's why I chose not to commit to promiscous people.

I guess stay away is too strong a word. what I mean is, I wouldn't marry them. As a hunter, I'll size up the alligator to see if I can take it before I try and capture it. Why? because if I can't, I'm screwed. Just because it may be an alligator I like doesn't mean I should try to catch it.

I'll hang with them, get to know them, and in that way I won't miss out, but I'm not going to marry them. and that doesn't require sex.

I'm not sure what you mean by obsolete quantity? The number is just a number on it's own yes but it points to so many other red flags that it can't be ignored.

To say that she could've changed is true, I'm not cutting that off. What I'm saying is why would you comitt your life to a chance? Theres no way you can "Know" they''ve changed without commiting yourself or seeking commitment from her. Sure you can speculate. but you can know until you've crossed the line.

on the other hand, you can know that they've been promiscous, because that's what they've already done.


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## ATC529R

My wife and I have discussed # of partners, and we are both well above average. but we have great chemistry, and have zero trust issues. For that reason I have no issue with the # of people...we both like sex. but I set a ground rule....we do NOT discuss particular experiences in the past. I would rather not know, I know what I neeed to know and that is we have both been there, done that and are both more than capable of satisfying one another.


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## Gangland

When I ask the # of partners I never want to hear the particulars of the actuall act. If you like the person that's self torture.

I could interrogate the person and say, under what circumstances did you break up etc. but I don't do that because it's not worth it if the count is to high. No excuse would be good enough.

Credit card companies and banks lend based off what? past payment and payability now. If your past payments are lacking, your current ability to pay can do little to save you. that's regardless of the circumstances of the nonpayment. There's a reason for this, and that's because a persons past payment is a pretty good predictor of their future payment.

I'm not saying that the number actually determines something about the person, only that it points to things that are more likely to happen. Because it points to things that are more likely to happen, I'm weary of staking my life on it. The alternative being I commit to a woman who may or may not have changed, she screws me over, and I only have myself to blame for not ever considering her past. Things very well may go smoothly into happily ever after, but if I'm going roll my life commitment die it's going to be with the best odds possible. And that's with someone who's not been promiscous.


----------



## ATC529R

meh, maybe its just me, but I would rather have a woman thats been there and done that----as long as we have chemistry---as oppossed to one that has only been with 3-4 and is going to be wondering what she missing when things get rough in the marriage.


----------



## FalconKing

ATC529R said:


> meh, maybe its just me, but I would rather have a woman thats been there and done that----as long as we have chemistry---as oppossed to one that has only been with 3-4 and is going to be wondering what she missing when things get rough in the marriage.


If she's had sexual relations with 4 guys and STILL wondering if she's missing something that's definitely a bad sign for me. I've been with 4 women, and dated a few others. It's just made me more selective.


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## Ostera

ATC... It's not the numbers... what I failed to ask was did she cheat during any of her 'monogamous' relationships. My wife told me at the beginning that she was a 'zygote' and that when she was with someone she was absolutely true to them.. bs, I find out in counseling that she cheated on every singe guy she has been with for that last 35 years (since she was 17). She cheated on me at least 3 times... My entire 3 yr realtionship has been a mirage. You don't know anything about the past except #'s you end up with what a mess I got into.


----------



## CandieGirl

One Thousand?


----------



## FalconKing

As I said before, it's not "You slept with a lot of people." It's, "What is going through your head that causes you to engage in this kind of behavior?" Obviously it's not something I want to deal with. I can just be nervous and hope for the best or I could just try to "save" and "change" this person. No thanks.


----------



## Gangland

ATC529R said:


> meh, maybe its just me, but I would rather have a woman thats been there and done that----as long as we have chemistry---as oppossed to one that has only been with 3-4 and is going to be wondering what she missing when things get rough in the marriage.


The argument could be made that if she's wondering what she's missing she's not really ready to settle down, even with her lack of sex partners, and that definutely could be case. The number isn't fullproof, it's just a big red flag. A red flag that sends me running.

Also, I'm not sure of your age, but as you get older the number would mean a little less. I say this because as people age, their objective beauty usually fades and particularly for women, (because men value beauty more) it means they are less likely to leave or cheat because they have less options that are better than you that they can do that with.


----------



## ATC529R

Ostera said:


> ATC... It's not the numbers... what I failed to ask was did she cheat during any of her 'monogamous' relationships. My wife told me at the beginning that she was a 'zygote' and that when she was with someone she was absolutely true to them.. bs, I find out in counseling that she cheated on every singe guy she has been with for that last 35 years (since she was 17). She cheated on me at least 3 times... My entire 3 yr realtionship has been a mirage. You don't know anything about the past except #'s you end up with what a mess I got into.


I dunno...it's the little things that tell you. Yes my wife says she has always been faithful in the past. but by little things I mean, not going out with the single girls (I am 40, so we're past that), her having no problem saying hey I need something from my hotmail, and having me log on and forward it. not hiding facebook...just not hiding things......maybe it's just me, and I have been around A LOT....but I know what to look for, I have been the other guy enough to know.


----------



## Coffee Amore

ATC529R said:


> meh, maybe its just me, but I would rather have a woman thats been there and done that----as long as we have chemistry---as oppossed to one that has only been with 3-4 and is going to be wondering what she missing when things get rough in the marriage.


A higher number doesn't necessarily mean the person knows a lot about sex either. It could be that a lot of those were with drunken frat boys..ONS..encounters where the other person wasn't really interested in fulfilling your fantasies. There's not a whole lot to learn from those brief experiences. On the other hand, if someone had 3-4 steady sexual relationships, she might have done a variety of sexual acts with those partners that someone with a high number may not have done. My particular number isn't high, but when I read the Sex Section of this forum, I've done a lot of things some people want to do and haven't done. And I know many of those posters have a higher count than I do.


----------



## ATC529R

Coffee Amore said:


> A higher number doesn't necessarily mean the person knows a lot about sex either. It could be that a lot of those were with drunken frat boys..ONS..encounters where the other person wasn't really interested in fulfilling your fantasies. There's not a whole lot to learn from those brief experiences. On the other hand, if someone had 3-4 steady sexual relationships, she might have done a variety of sexual acts with those partners that someone with a high number may not have done. My particular number isn't high, but when I read the Sex Section of this forum, I've done a lot of things some people want to do and haven't done. And I know many of those posters have a higher count than I do.


spoken like someone who has not been with enough "bad girls" ---no offense intended-


----------



## Lon

Gangland said:


> To say that she could've changed is true, I'm not cutting that off. What I'm saying is why would you comitt your life to a chance? Theres no way you can "Know" they''ve changed without commiting yourself or seeking commitment from her. Sure you can speculate. but you can know until you've crossed the line.
> 
> on the other hand, you can know that they've been promiscous, because that's what they've already done.


There is always risk in life, and when it comes to infidelity or ability to commit to a permanent relationship you can't rely on predicitions. Anyone is capable of cheating, and any marriage or long term relationship is susceptible to ending, and I honestly believe that your chances of getting it right are pretty much equal between someone with a history of promiscuity and one with a history of not being promiscuous enough.

Assuming that the variables leading to promiscuity are the same variables that would lead to cheating (and that is a leap in my mind), with a partner whom has a promiscuous past but made an effort to change, you can know that they have had some success at changing but there remains a realistic chance they will revert. And with a partner that has a clean past, you can know they have had some success at living with their morals but there is still the chance they may not always remain true to those morals.

How do you measure the odds that a loyal woman will turn on you someday? you can't you can only have blind faith, and going by the number of mid-life crisis stories, and failed fairytale endings where virgins married virgins and years/decades later decided to toss their values to the wind and go live the single promiscous life, I would not put all my stock into that method.

Basically you are taking your chances on the unknown incalculable but seemingly better odds of a good girl trying to _stay_ good, versus me going with the slimmer but more calculated odds of an honest and flawed girl (be it naughty or nice) trying to _be_ good.

Once already in my life I went with the seemingly better odds and it almost destroyed me. Now that I know better, instead of worrying about odds I'm just going to love the people I choose to love, and if they can't accept my love it is their problem not mine. And if they are deceptive, that is all on them, I have no part of it because my two roles in life are to be true to myself and to embrace people of good character. It is our one life and we have to live it, and that means taking risks while we have the chance to.


----------



## Lon

FalconKing said:


> As I said before, it's not "You slept with a lot of people." It's, "What is going through your head that causes you to engage in this kind of behavior?" Obviously it's not something I want to deal with. I can just be nervous and hope for the best or I could just try to "save" and "change" this person. No thanks.


I agree completely that its not about the number, it's about how they got to that number and how that has affected who they are.

I don't want to deal with it either, but I am willing to accept someone who has dealt with it for themselves. Nobody can save or change someone else, but everybody can save or change themselves. And I am willing to look past what others don't to see the truth.


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## FalconKing

ATC529R said:


> spoken like someone who has not been with enough "bad girls" ---no offense intended-


What do you mean? CA is a woman. Or maybe you meant that she didn't have a lot of bad influence from female friends??


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## FalconKing

LMAO truly everyone's in the Halloween spirit to resurrect a dead thread!


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## Coffee Amore

ATC529R said:


> spoken like someone who has not been with enough "bad girls" ---no offense intended-


None taken because I'm a woman and I don't swing that way. Never had the desire to be with a "bad girl".


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## ATC529R

lol CA......didn't know you were a girl.


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## FalconKing

ATC529R said:


> lol CA......didn't know you were a girl.


:lol::rofl: This literally has me laughing at my computer. ATC I have some experience with bad girls. I agree with everything CA said.


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## Gangland

Lon said:


> There is always risk in life, and when it comes to infidelity or ability to commit to a permanent relationship you can't rely on predicitions. Anyone is capable of cheating, and any marriage or long term relationship is susceptible to ending, and I honestly believe that your chances of getting it right are pretty much equal between someone with a history of promiscuity and one with a history of not being promiscuous enough.
> 
> Assuming that the variables leading to promiscuity are the same variables that would lead to cheating (and that is a leap in my mind), with a partner whom has a promiscuous past but made an effort to change, you can know that they have had some success at changing but there remains a realistic chance they will revert. And with a partner that has a clean past, you can know they have had some success at living with their morals but there is still the chance they may not always remain true to those morals.
> 
> How do you measure the odds that a loyal woman will turn on you someday? you can't you can only have blind faith, and going by the number of mid-life crisis stories, and failed fairytale endings where virgins married virgins and years/decades later decided to toss their values to the wind and go live the single promiscous life, I would not put all my stock into that method.
> 
> Basically you are taking your chances on the unknown incalculable but seemingly better odds of a good girl trying to _stay_ good, versus me going with the slimmer but more calculated odds of an honest and flawed girl (be it naughty or nice) trying to _be_ good.
> 
> Once already in my life I went with the seemingly better odds and it almost destroyed me. Now that I know better, instead of worrying about odds I'm just going to love the people I choose to love, and if they can't accept my love it is their problem not mine. And if they are deceptive, that is all on them, I have no part of it because my two roles in life are to be true to myself and to embrace people of good character. It is our one life and we have to live it, and that means taking risks while we have the chance to.


This is true.. but the odds are not "seemingly better", they "are" better, as has been proven with statistics, which is what determines odds. Should you chose to take the slimmer odds that is indeed your choice. But still to say the number doesn't matter is to tell someone to go blindly into a life commitment.

A person's character can change, I have seen it, So I'm not against you there, but more often I have seen it that a person's character doesn't change. not by much anyway. This is the fact that employers, credit institutions, and anyone in the act of contracts or any form of commitment bases their decision on. If we can agree there, which I'm not sure we can... than it supposes that it's better odds a person will stay the same, than change. 

Granted.. that's not an actual measurment, so I will not say my way or the high way or my way is fact. But I will say that with the cards I'm dealt I see this as the smartest way to handle it.


----------



## Ostera

ATC529R said:


> I dunno...it's the little things that tell you. Yes my wife says she has always been faithful in the past. but by little things I mean, not going out with the single girls (I am 40, so we're past that), her having no problem saying hey I need something from my hotmail, and having me log on and forward it. not hiding facebook...just not hiding things......maybe it's just me, and I have been around A LOT....but I know what to look for, I have been the other guy enough to know.




Last August my wife left me and went to her daughters for the week. We got back together that Friday. I wake up Sunday morning and she has a message on her phone from Saurday evening, so I check it. It's som pos saying, "hey, you still going to meet me for drinks." My wife said she didn't know how he got her number... RUFKM. She said he was buying her and her daughter drinks and she can't remember.. whatever.


----------



## Lon

And my point was that the odds are only better if you base everything on this one statistic instead of character and compatibility. If you are looking for a mail order bride there is nothing I can dispute about your rationale. But taking the time to actually date and get to know a person is the only way to have any kind of reasonable assurance of long term success.


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## JCD

Lon said:


> And my point was that the odds are only better if you base everything on this one statistic instead of character and compatibility. If you are looking for a mail order bride there is nothing I can dispute about your rationale. But taking the time to actually date and get to know a person is the only way to have any kind of reasonable assurance of long term success.


Yes. Everyone has some red flags. But to state that having 30 partners is NOT a red flag is ludicrous. It's a question of will you accept that red flag.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JCD

Guys: what is your number?

At what point would you have enough reservations to start to dig into a girl's past? What is the number where you wouldn't even pass Go and save $200 on the next date by not having it?

Let me go first. I'd say 10 before I start digging (and I better be hearing a lot of 'Ugh! Four were during that STUPID week of Spring Break. God, I'll never do THAT again!' or 'Wow, I learned TOO much in Party 101. Young and stupid is an excuse. Old and stupid isn't)

At 15-20...eh, my bed isn't that big for so many ghosts. I'd rather find a girl who was in a LTR which eventually didn't work out than the town bike.

Granted: I won't sleep with anyone who isn't marriage material in the first place.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl

I'd rather have a man who didn't even talk about the past like it was his business. I'd rather be in a relationship that grows naturally on its own. But whatever, this thread is old and should be dead.

I assume it's ok for the men to bang everyone though. Boys will be boys


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## FalconKing

I think it depends on the guy on whether or not you pass. For some guys 10 is a lot, for others it's nothing. Sometimes it's just a feeling you get or how someone answers certain questions, not necessarily that question. Like if you and a lady are having a good time and you are making feel her good and she says something like, "I haven't felt this alive since I was hooking up with all those guys in college!" or "Yeah I used to live in so and so. I had get out of there because I developed quite the reputation.." Hmm..no thanks for me


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## FalconKing

that_girl said:


> I'd rather have a man who didn't even talk about the past like it was his business. I'd rather be in a relationship that grows naturally on its own. But whatever, this thread is old and should be dead.
> 
> I assume it's ok for the men to bang everyone though. Boys will be boys


I assume you'll post here again though


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## that_girl

Only to tell you that I won't.



:sleeping:


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## FalconKing

And BTW not every guy bangs everyone. I'm so awesome I bang no one:smthumbup:***..smiling to hide the tears..***


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## JCD

that_girl said:


> I'd rather have a man who didn't even talk about the past like it was his business. I'd rather be in a relationship that grows naturally on its own. But whatever, this thread is old and should be dead.
> 
> I assume it's ok for the men to bang everyone though. Boys will be boys


No one said that and I bet my number is lower than yours.

Here is the big problem with the whole question: the people you NEED to check out the most ('yeah, my last boyfriend was a Bolivian Drug Lord. Didn't I mention that?') have the least incentive to tell you the truth QED
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Coffee Amore

Well JDC can speak for himself but I thought that was just an example of what a woman could say. I don't think that was a personal example.


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## barcafan

Ahh the old ****s vs studs topic....Jim Jefferies is all I have to say.


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## JCD

Coffee Amore said:


> Well JDC can speak for himself but I thought that was just an example of what a woman could say. I don't think that was a personal example.


Got it in one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon

JCD said:


> Guys: what is your number?
> 
> At what point would you have enough reservations to start to dig into a girl's past? What is the number where you wouldn't even pass Go and save $200 on the next date by not having it?


It feels like a trap to answer this, but I will anyway:

1) before I decide to get serious there will certainly be a talk about our sexual history, but it's not all business like, and it certainly won't be before, or even close to, the very beginning of the relationship, maybe not even before it gets sexual (but I'm not going to stick my d!ck in crazy, and when there is still a chance it certainly won't be without some protection).

2) when this conversation does arise, most of my focus will be on the most recent history and the most recent partner - if there is more than one sexual partner in the past year it will prompt me to keep digging deeper until a pattern reveals itself. If her total number is, say 30, I'm not going to kick her to the curb, I wouldn't have invested that much time into a relationship so far if there wasn't something of quality I saw in her. But if a pattern of promiscuity is there all it means for me is that I don't rush to commit to her, I'm really in no hurry and am not going to put some rigid timeline in place. And in time her loyalty and faithfulness will become evident. If she is averaging more than one guy a month, well I will probably start to lose interest pretty quickly.

So maybe that is the difference between me and guys who have a set number or threshold, we are just looking for different things, I'm not looking to attach myself to the next suitable woman that comes into my life, I overthink things bad enough without having to worry about looking too far down the road. I'm not worried about my values becoming corrupt just by keeping company with someone who has a high number. Regardless of ANYTHING from her past, if I'm enjoying the company of a woman I'll continue to do so until it becomes no longer enjoyable


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## Wolfman1968

I can't believe I read this entire thread.


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## FalconKing

hapapinoy said:


> I can't believe I read this entire thread.


The really good stuff was deleted


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## lovepuppy

In reading through all these posts...anyone want to comment on this idea?

People say often how come there are virtually no women who post asking how to forget about their mens past? Why is it only men wanting to forget about their wifes past?

Here are my thoughts...

Lets say your a woman and your male spouse has been with 50 women before you. Why would this not bother them the same as it would a man whose wife has been with 50 men? It is because of the unknown. 

For a woman, she knows her husbands penis size, the abilities he has, his stamina level, how long he lasts before ejaculation, what positions he likes to do, etc. So where is the mystery in what each sexual encounter of her husbands was like in her mind?

However for the man it is much different, as men have different size penises, some longer, some wider. Some men suffer from premature ejaculation, some don't. Some men are out of shape and can only maintain sex for a short time, others are athletic and can go for hours at a fast pace. Some are well schooled on positions, others only do missionary.

You see my point? Is a woman going to wonder how tight the other woman were? Do women typically dictate the positions that are done, especially in a hookup, or is it the man? Are they going to wonder how long the girl went? NO, as sex ends when then man ejaculates. It is safe to assume that each past sexual experience of their man was similar to what they experience every night. 

For a man...they have to wonder what each of the past 50 men had in their pants and what they did in detail to their wife. For some this too much for them to handle, thus we have threads like this one.

RB


----------



## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

In a penis-centered reality, your theory makes sense. 

But, not everyone exists in that world. Sorry!

You lost me at the assumption that sex ends when the man ejaculates. 

Maybe women tend not to worry about how many women their man has been with because they know how many men they've been with and they just think, well, that's personal info and also it's the past. Usually when women are having sex they're enjoying it. If the man is wondering how many men their woman has had and how they measure up, they're missing out on a lot of present-time pleasure and being in the flow of the experience. It doesn't sound like a very mature, or helpful attitude towards enjoying what you have and it's actually, in my mind, a way of stepping outside the relationship. A person in a relationship should keep their mind in the relationship, not in the past and not too much in the future, and not subject themselves to visualizations of scenarios that may or may not have happened. If a guy can't do that, then they had better forestall a relationship until they can work it out for themselves. A woman is entitled to her sexual history regardless of what it is, the same as a man or a transgender or any other creature on the face of this earth.

The only thing that matters to me is that my man isn't banging someone else during the same time period that he's enjoying an established relationship with me. i.e. present-time exclusivity.


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## Thundarr

Resurrection of this thread will make your nose bleed.


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## FalconKing

Meh..each to their own but I need more than how good someone makes me feel right now.

The polarity of the responses of this thread was everywhere. Lovepuppy I appreciate your input and response but this is just an old battlefield...


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## tryingtobebetter

lovepuppy said:


> In reading through all these posts...anyone want to comment on this idea?
> 
> People say often how come there are virtually no women who post asking how to forget about their mens past? Why is it only men wanting to forget about their wifes past?
> 
> Here are my thoughts...
> 
> Lets say your a woman and your male spouse has been with 50 women before you. Why would this not bother them the same as it would a man whose wife has been with 50 men? It is because of the unknown.
> 
> For a woman, she knows her husbands penis size, the abilities he has, his stamina level, how long he lasts before ejaculation, what positions he likes to do, etc. So where is the mystery in what each sexual encounter of her husbands was like in her mind?
> 
> However for the man it is much different, as men have different size penises, some longer, some wider. Some men suffer from premature ejaculation, some don't. Some men are out of shape and can only maintain sex for a short time, others are athletic and can go for hours at a fast pace. Some are well schooled on positions, others only do missionary.
> 
> You see my point? Is a woman going to wonder how tight the other woman were? Do women typically dictate the positions that are done, especially in a hookup, or is it the man? Are they going to wonder how long the girl went? NO, as sex ends when then man ejaculates. It is safe to assume that each past sexual experience of their man was similar to what they experience every night.
> 
> For a man...they have to wonder what each of the past 50 men had in their pants and what they did in detail to their wife. For some this too much for them to handle, thus we have threads like this one.
> 
> RB


Some threads are like the bad thing in horror movies. Just when you thought it was dead it comes back again.

Scary.

But you asked for comments on your thoughts.

I find much more persuasive the argument from evolutionary biology.

We want to devote our energy to raising our own children.

Women know their children are theirs. They grew them in their own womb . Unless there is a switch at birth (subject of fables?) they have no doubts they are the mother.

Men have to take it on trust so are more interested in who their partner may have slept with (do not want to spend years raising some other man's child). So men are wired to worry about these things in a way women are not.

Makes sense to me.


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## Caribbean Man

tryingtobebetter said:


> Some threads are like the bad thing in horror movies. Just when you thought it was dead it comes back again.
> 
> Scary.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

"..._A Man [ or woman ] convinced against his will is of the same opinion still_..."

Benjamin Franklin


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## Thunder7

Hmmm. My wife and I once discussed the 'why is it a bigger deal how many men a woman has slept with'. My answer goes back to the whole theory of men being visual, while women are more emotional. When a woman thinks of her partners past (I think) she thinks in terms of how emotionally invested was he in that relationship; did she do things better or things I don't do; was he happier then than he is now? While men, being visual, visualize another guys d*** in their wife's mouth, or whatever other horrifying vision that may plague that individual. Sex is very invasive for women and men don't like to think of/or picture their SO being invaded in any way. Just a thought..........


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## prc911

hmmm...to me this has become pretty simple....from a biologic standpoint men are sort of wired to worry about this, for its women that carry our children and not men

people say this and that and double standard....double standard? wtf? of course there has to be one, only women can give birth!!! women are born with a limited number of eggs, men and almost infinite amount of sperm....
a woman is much less likely to be turned down by a man, however men get turned down by women is very common, specially the good looking ones....

geez, so simple....this is the way it is guys...there is no one to blame but evolution or god or whatever....we have to deal with

now the other thing, if you are one of those that has a lot of concern for how many sexual partners your woman had, thats your own choice....dont let anyone tell you thats a problem or whatever...no one is in any position to critize you as to what you consider a proper number of past sexual partners but YOU! is just your choice as if it were a choice of you only liking blondes, etc....yes is that simple....I would never accept a relationship with a woman with more than 5 sexual partners and even less if there were one night stands or what not...and thats my choice, period.....no one is any better or more right to tell me otherwise....is a free world !


----------



## Thundarr

prc911 said:


> hmmm...to me this has become pretty simple....from a biologic standpoint men are sort of wired to worry about this, for its women that carry our children and not men
> 
> people say this and that and double standard....double standard? wtf? of course there has to be one, only women can give birth!!! women are born with a limited number of eggs, men and almost infinite amount of sperm....
> a woman is much less likely to be turned down by a man, however men get turned down by women is very common, specially the good looking ones....
> 
> *geez, so simple....this is the way it is guys...there is no one to blame but evolution or god or whatever....we have to deal with
> *
> now the other thing, if you are one of those that has a lot of concern for how many sexual partners your woman had, thats your own choice....dont let anyone tell you thats a problem or whatever...no one is in any position to critize you as to what you consider a proper number of past sexual partners but YOU! is just your choice as if it were a choice of you only liking blondes, etc....yes is that simple....I would never accept a relationship with a woman with more than 5 sexual partners and even less if there were one night stands or what not...and thats my choice, period.....no one is any better or more right to tell me otherwise....is a free world !


Yup. Accept it or not, think it's fair or not, be offended or not. None of that changes the truth of what evolution staged for us any more than being mad at gravity can make water run up hill.


----------



## Caribbean Man

prc911 said:


> now the other thing, if you are one of those that has a lot of concern for how many sexual partners your woman had, thats your own choice....dont let anyone tell you thats a problem or whatever...no one is in any position to critize you as to what you consider a proper number of past sexual partners but YOU! is just your choice as if it were a choice of you only liking blondes, etc....yes is that simple....


:iagree:

IMO , one of the main problems on this thread was the numerous projections , and the black or white approach to the topic.
The line line of reasoning that states :
"..*My past is my right and I refuse to share it with you, no matter what*.." vs ".... _*You have to accept my past because if you can't , it makes you an insecure man*_..." [ that is usually after the truth starts trickling out.]

If you refuse to share your past with me , the one who is willing to spend the rest of my life with you [ and your past], then what exactly are you asking me to accept? And how does that make me an insecure man ? Logically, the only reason you hide hide your past is because don't don't want it to be seen.
You don't want to be judged by it, because you're afraid it might jeopardize your partner's perception of who you are.
This make_ you _the insecure person , not your partner.

However, relationships are not that simple. They are generally a complex network of compromises , concessions , gambits ,and compensatory advantages.

There is no place for withholding secrets or posturing in serious relationships.
Insecurity and fear are the arch enemies of positive relationships, because they breed jealousy and mistrust.
If you are a strong woman, then own your past, it is part of you and has contributed to exactly the type of person you are today. In any event, you deserve a man you could love you for the person you are. 
Women and men value different things in a relationship , and they view sex differently. But,it is also a well known fact that when a man really loves a woman , absolutely nothing could stop him from being wit her.....

Not even her past.


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## 2ntnuf

I wanted to know more, about my XW's past because I wanted to be able to make the decision CM talks about. Do I want to commit? I needed to know if I could handle the inevitable questions which would eventually follow and they did. I wanted to know how much staring there would be. I wanted to determine if I was man enough to handle the attention she would be getting since we live in the same area she grew up in and many of these men are still living here. Where is the respect for your partner if you are not willing to share your past? You don't want that person if they cannot handle your past and they most likely won't want you. Isn't this better than finding out later you are not happy and destroying many lives?


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## Centurions

Greetings

Well, as several posters mentioned, there's a whole lot of room between being a virgin and having 100's of partners--or some similar high number of sexual partners. Many people-men and women alike, are somewhere in the middle. As SA comments about values and cherishing sexual experience as something deeply meaningful and important, I get that. It is something that can happen when two people are deeply in love and committed to each other.

I think that deep intimate bond and that special experience is, in my mind, perhaps the best and most fulfilling experience in life. Comparing that, to a one night stand, or some frenzied weekend of hedonism, there really isn't a comparison.

However, we go through life dealing with a strong sex drive, sexual needs, emotional needs, companionship, and so on. People search for great love, but must go through lots of trial and error to find the right person. It's great to find that person when you're a teenager, but after divorce, living ten or more years out, it's not so easy to find that right person. Thus, people must try the best they can in finding fulfillment.

Judging someone that is an adult for not being a virgin, or expecting them to have less than five partners seems unrealistic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jeffyboy

Reading things like this makes me think conservative religions were on to something...but to each his own. Everyone has to make their own decisions and reap the consequences.


----------



## Hardtohandle

SimplyAmorous said:


> And on the other side of this coin...some women DO care how many their men has banged...and more importantly WHY he was banging.. was it because he was truly in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...desired a real future with this woman, cared about her well being....or was it just for the Pleasure release in the moment...she can be hit by a car tomorrow...it's not his concern.
> 
> I could never be with the Player type....releasing his seed in umpteen beds, maybe some kitchen tables & backseats all over town...just cause "Mrs Spread her legs" was willing & pulling at his dress tie to come & PLAY....
> 
> So this can go both ways as well. Has absolutely nothing to do with Jealousy either...has to do with our morals and how we view the sexual act... what it personally means to us...and deeply.
> 
> I could never align myself with that sort of man...I find the casual sex lifestyle .....shallow, even lacking empathy where one has to shut off their emotions to survive it....this is not a part of who I am as a woman in touch with myself...but goes against every moral fiber I am made of.
> 
> So it does matter ... to some of us, how one handles themselves while single in these regards.... not jumping from bed to bed...just cause IT is available.


We need a double like or triple like button..

This thread is from 2012, but I just relived this situation a month ago..


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## ConanHub

Good zombie!&#55357;&#56448;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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