# How do you ladies feel about women being in the military/law enforcement?



## Marcus588 (May 4, 2014)

A friend of mine is joining the Marines and I have known her for years. Granted, she has always been a real tom boy and overall a pretty tough chick but I have to say I have mixed feelings.

She is 25 and her dad was also in the Marines, he died last year of lung cancer which was a very sad day. I know she was a real daddy's girl and did a lot together so I am thinking a big part of this is her following in her dad's footsteps so to speak. 

Now I was supportive of it telling her I am glad she is doing what she wants. However her mother is not supportive at all telling her how dangerous it is and how she could be killed/raped/tortured etc. She has really been trying to desuade her. 

While I myself have never been in I do have to admit if I were I'd frankly feel less safe having some short women back me up then big tough guys, especially if I were shot and needed to be dragged to safety or such. 

Now I don't question their commitment or bravery, but as bad as war is I get this horrible feeling in my stomach what could happen and just feel bad to think what kind of psychological toll it would take on women. My friend is one that would jump at the chance to fight in the front lines and I know at least in the U.S they are supposed to let women fight by 2016. 

In my town we have one female cop. I see her now and then (and she's quite the beauty) such as pulling someone over, giving tickets etc. And while I know she is trained when I see her I just can't help but wonder what would happen if some big tall tough guy were to resist arrest or tried to hit her. Not saying those things are good happening to men and not to sound sexist but I just feel like it's sad that women are willing to put themselves in danger like this; women are to be protected not sent to fight or arrest guys with knives/guns etc. 

I'm sure I may get some ladies here picking up their axes and pitchforks but that's just how I feel. 

Interested what women here have to say. 

Thanks for reading, and again, no offense intended, just some thoughts.


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

in response to the general part of your question, I personally would probably suck in either of those professions. But there are lots of badass ladies out there that are in that line of work and rock it. Some are more physically built to do it, and others are equipped by learning various defensive and offensive moves. They're not going to just let someone untrained, male or female, be sent out to the wolves if they don't think they are able. You have to prove you are able through your training.

In response to your friend, there are LOTS of jobs to do within the military. A lot never see the front lines and do behind the scenes work. She could be a photographer or cook or administrative or hospital work. They're not going to let her do a job she isn't capable of doing. So if she does get one of the more dangerous jobs, it will be because she has earned it and is trained well enough to handle what is thrown at her.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

Marcus588 said:


> A friend of mine is joining the Marines and I have known her for years. Granted, she has always been a real tom boy and overall a pretty tough chick but I have to say I have mixed feelings.
> 
> She is 25 and her dad was also in the Marines, he died last year of lung cancer which was a very sad day. I know she was a real daddy's girl and did a lot together so I am thinking a big part of this is her following in her dad's footsteps so to speak.
> 
> ...


It's not for me but more power to them. They get training to protect themselves and they would both carry guns so I am confident they can protect themselves fairly well.  War is hard on men too. How many men have PTSD because of their experiences in the military? I'm sorry you are worried about your friend. I would be so worried about my son if he went in to the military. But I would support him in it, if that is what he chose.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

Marcus588 said:


> A friend of mine is joining the Marines and I have known her for years. Granted, she has always been a real tom boy and overall a pretty tough chick but I have to say I have mixed feelings.
> 
> She is 25 and her dad was also in the Marines, he died last year of lung cancer which was a very sad day. I know she was a real daddy's girl and did a lot together so I am thinking a big part of this is her following in her dad's footsteps so to speak.
> 
> ...


The Marines? She must be pretty kick-a$$. Aren't they the toughest military group?


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## JustTired (Jan 22, 2012)

I have a sister that is active duty in the military. She works in NSA. Not every job in the military is on the front lines of a war but they all serve a purpose. The women who are sent out to the front lines are trained & equipped for that environment, just like the men are. A man can easily punk out on you in the front lines too or you could have a few short scrawny dudes that are supposed to be your back up. They've all been trained the same.


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## Observer (Aug 23, 2011)

OP there are tons of jobs in every branch of service. As of right now, she will not be in combat arms so no wories in regard to having someones back. Not every person in the military actually does combat. I was Infantry, all men.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Marcus588
While police and military jobs are dangerous, on average they are not the most dangerous occupations. (Being a NY cab driver is more dangerous than being a NY police officer). 

This is not to downplay the risks that the military take and for some the extremely hostile work conditions. It is an exceptionally difficult job, and for some in the military extremely dangerous. 

As long as they have realistic expectations about the job, conditions and risks, I support anyone who is willing to take a job in the military.

I would only be concerned if you think she is misinformed about what the job will be like.


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## Observer (Aug 23, 2011)

JustTired said:


> I have a sister that is active duty in the military. She works in NSA. Not every job in the military is on the front lines of a war but they all serve a purpose. *The women who are sent out to the front lines are trained & equipped for that environment, just like the men are.* A man can easily punk out on you in the front lines too or you could have a few short scrawny dudes that are supposed to be your back up. *They've all been trained the same*.


Bolded is false informaiton, the rest is spot on


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## Marcus588 (May 4, 2014)

JustTired said:


> I have a sister that is active duty in the military. She works in NSA. Not every job in the military is on the front lines of a war but they all serve a purpose. The women who are sent out to the front lines are trained & equipped for that environment, just like the men are. A man can easily punk out on you in the front lines too or you could have a few short scrawny dudes that are supposed to be your back up. They've all been trained the same.


Oh, I am well aware not all jobs deal with combat, but she is definitely the type to do it. She told me she wanted something close to combat and talked about a team they have called female engagement teams that go with the men and talk to the women and act as support. 

Now she has a lot of skills that would be good for the military and is very tough, not to mention tall. She is 6'0, works out goes to the gym, is proficient with fire arms; even has a CCP. Her father and her would go hunting/camping/fishing etc. as well as a black belt in tae kwon do and has taken some akido. I mean I wouldn't want to chance fighting her lol. 

But even though we are friends we have a more brother/sister relationship than anything else. I actually met her when I got into roller derby. I have to say the chicks that are in roller derby are something else, you won't see these kinds of women a lot. 

One big reason she was a daddy's girl was because she was a real tomboy and her mother would always try to get her to wear dresses/skirts/makeup etc. but she wouldn't, she hates those things. Heck, she could be captured, forced to wear a dress, heels and makeup/have her nails painted and that would be torture in and of itself.

She has always been an all around tough girl that even ends up intimidating other women, she says she scares other girls lol. 

She is a good platonic friend though, she plays video games but hates the social games and prefers the shoot em up types and she's quite good. 

I just worry about her.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Marcus588 said:


> I actually met her when I got into roller derby. I have to say the chicks that are in roller derby are something else, you won't see these kinds of women a lot.


The chicks in roller derby are some wicked BADA**ES. Love their look, love their attitude. Girl power to the nth degree! And your friend sounds like a bada** too. Good on her and more power to her. 

She's lucky to have a great friend like you in her corner.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

I once read somewhere on here about chicks going into the military for the sex. Some women have as high a sex drive as men. I don't know a woman's mind, but guys: Could you imagine a career opportunity of joining the horny cheerleader army?


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

I was mostly against women in combat until the first Iraq war.

I remember there was a female pilot taken prisoner and when she was captured she wasn't outright raped, but they gropped her and stuck their hands down her pants. 

When asked about the risk of being raped, she simply said being taken prisoner sucks for everyone and essentially all risks are on the table for both men and women from being killed at or immediately after the point of capture to brutal torture. 

War is simply awful. However, there are women courageous and or partriotic enough to accept these risks.

Nonetheless, I do see problems with integrated co-ed combat units. Living in the field under combat conditions means very close living with essentially no privacy. It is probably an evolutionary response but it has been frequently observed that the stress of the combat often leads to a culture of hyper sexuality. It will take lots and training and a strong leadership to prevent harassement and assault. We are a long way for the world of Starship Troopers where soldiers take co-ed showers without giving it a second thought.

Finally, I malso one of those who think that a wounded female will have a greater negative effect on moral than a wounded male, but I'm not sure if that has been the experience in the last gulf war


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Lionelhutz said:


> I was mostly against women in combat until the first Iraq war.
> 
> I remember there was a female pilot taken prisoner and when she was captured she wasn't outright raped, but they gropped her and stuck their hands down her pants.
> 
> ...


She was actually raped quite thoroughly.

I love badass women but there is absolutely no comparison physically.

Your friend just significantly increased her chances of rape, promiscuity and if in a relationship, infidelity.

I have known several women who went into the service. None of them came through unscathed sexually.

With the enemy we face, rape is a given on a level so brutal as to ensure death.

Most women are raped by their male counterparts. It is a bad joke how the military handles it.

I had a young friend, who I advised not to, join and sure enough, she was on watch with a male counterpart and he sexually assaulted her. She reported it but in her frazzled state, she missed a small detail in filling out her paper work and she got reprimanded while her assailant was not touched.

Guess those stupid raped women need to think more clearly after they are assaulted.

She barely avoided a dishonorable discharge.

I had an aunt go in. She was sweetness and goodness personified. I always looked up to her and crushed on her, she married my uncle, but after she came out several years later, the woman she used to be was totally gone. She had been replaced by one of the most brazen, skanky wh0res I have ever seen, even portrayed in Hollywood. Of course her marriage ended. Not many men will put up with their wives servicing most of the officers, who didn't mind paying for her services, and many male soldiers to boot.

Women are referred to as "walking mattresses". Derogatory? absolutely. True? Far too often.

I guess the military finally figured out a form of legal and cheap prostitution. 

If you can't tell, I am not a proponent of women mixing with men in the military. I would like it if it was more ideal, but it simply isn't.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> I had an aunt go in. She was sweetness and goodness personified.


My post was a much less articulate mention if women going in specifically FOR the sex. Your powerful post is about someone who went in for the typical reason you would presume people enlist and was corrupted by what seems to be a very premiscuous culture. We are hearing a lot about sexual assault in the military. And it's good we're hearing it. I wonder if we will ever start hearing about the culture that produces it. 

And to un-hijack this thread, OP, we're all presuming your friend is going in for all of the right reasons. I agree with those that say that they will not put someone in harms way that can't handle it. I'm sure she's researched all of that. And I'm sure she's researched sexual assault. And I' m SURE the military will counsel her plenty on sexual assault and what to do about it. But maybe you can do a little research on the culture she's getting herself into. Prepare her for it. Things to watch out for. 

"Be Prepared". Isn't that the marines? Or maybe the Boy Scouts. Whatever.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

My 19 year daughter briefly thought of joining the military. She wants to be an ER nurse and thought being combat nurse really interested her but what changed her mind was the rape statistics. It's really a sad thing that the military can't get a handle on it but it's not surprising when a lot of men join the military to avoid jail time.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I was in the army. I did not go in for the sex, don't know anyone that did. Military life is a hard life just for sex, you can go to the bar if you want sex. 

I wanted serve and I did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marcus588 (May 4, 2014)

Thanks for all the replies everyone. It really is appalling how so many women in the military ends up getting raped by their own comrades/friends. Why do you think so many men in the military have such a hard time controlling themselves? 

I was really surprised to find out just how many women have died. 144 according to this: GRIM TOLL OF MILITARY WOMEN KILLED IN WAR - News & Commentary - Center for Military Readiness

It's really sad reading all those names. Not saying I think it's not just as bad when men are killed, but it sure does make one feel not only very sad but kind of depressed to. We're so used to hearing about men killed/captured that when you see women dealing with it I just can't help but worry. 

Most of them weren't even due to combat but IEDs and vehicle accidents or the like. 

Should we look at women that die differently than when men do? 

This one really got me: "Staff Sgt. Kimberley Voelz, 27, explosive ordnance disposal expert, bomb exploded, died in soldier husband's arms, Dec. 14, 2003."

I can only imagine how I were to feel if I were him. I'd feel like a failure as a husband for not protecting her or at least with her to help out.


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## Bridge (Dec 27, 2013)

Seeing friends who have come back from Iraq I think rape is nothing compared to whatever they've been through. 

Men risk their lives and soul when they fight. Vet suicides are at an all-time-high. I have no idea why women would fight for that job.


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## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

I would suggest not comparing rape to combat unless you have experienced both. That's just flame bait, especially in the ladies lounge.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MachoMcCoy said:


> I once read somewhere on here about chicks going into the military for the sex. Some women have as high a sex drive as men. I don't know a woman's mind, but guys: Could you imagine a career opportunity of joining the horny cheerleader army?


This post is completely disrespectful to women who go into the military.

I severed for 4 years as did many women I know. We did not go into the military to be the brothel for male military members.

Any woman who wants lots of sex needs only go down to local bars to get all she wants. She does not need to go into the military with all the hardships involved.

Disgusting post.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> She was actually raped quite thoroughly.
> 
> I love badass women but there is absolutely no comparison physically.
> 
> ...


I was in the military. No one ever tried to rape me. I am only aware of one man who raped any female military member on the bases where I was stationed.

That one man broke into 3 barracks and raped 3 women in one night. He was apprehended and prosecuted.


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## Bridge (Dec 27, 2013)

that.girl said:


> I would suggest not comparing rape to combat unless you have experienced both. That's just flame bait, especially in the ladies lounge.


I must experience being shot to death before I say its a horrible way to die. :smthumbup:


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MachoMcCoy said:


> I once read somewhere on here about chicks going into the military for the sex. Some women have as high a sex drive as men. I don't know a woman's mind, but guys: Could you imagine a career opportunity of joining the horny cheerleader army?


This boorish post reminds me of a guy I met at the NCO club. He introduced himself and then said "I hear that all women in the Army were either *****s or lesbians, which are you?"

My response was "You will never find out." And I walked away.

This idiot spent the next 3 years trying to get me to go out with him. Like I said, he was (and probably still is) an idiot.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> I was in the military. No one ever tried to rape me. I am only aware of one man who raped any female military member on the bases where I was stationed.
> 
> That one man broke into 3 barracks and raped 3 women in one night. He was apprehended and prosecuted.


I remember your story well. He almost got you. The rapist almost got away with it and the male soldiers and their GFs lied to protect him and were charged with nothing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Man, woman, straight or gay....if you love your country and are willing to die defending it, its would be an honor to serve with you.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

I figure I had just as much sex in the military as the next guy. 

I got all the same benefits and pay as the next guy too, sometimes more, during the times when I chose to work harder than the next guy and got scholarships/awards/promotions.

Now I am a veteran, just as much as the next vet. 

Plenty rape, molestation and rampant misogynist behavior *everywhere*. Military is no different but lots of good eggs in there too. 

I'm sure people who join up to improve their life are doing just that. Man or woman or anywhere in between (we need to work on that last part IMO).


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Are people here talking about rape just assuming that men do not get raped, in the military or elsewhere...sometimes by other men...also in the military...or not. Often with grave physical and psychological consequences, just as bad or even worse than when women are raped?

:-o 

Babes in the woods.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

There are armies that don't have a problem with sexual assault of women OR men (which is a big or bigger problem). Maybe your recruitment is the problem or maybe it's the wider society that drives that recruitment. There are innumerable police forces and paramilitary forces that have women and few problems attendant to the that. Again maybe the problem isn't the idea of it but the execution of it. 

I suspect that rules of engagement for the US troops are overly restrictive which foments a kind of paranoia that leads to violent behavior. That's how people are wired. Whereas if US doctrine wasn't so obsessed with not killing that single goat and impoverishing that goat owner in lieu of you march in, clean the place out of every goat and goat owner and create a buffer zone and shoot everyone who violates it there would be less of a tendency to embark on dangerous patrols. After all in Iraq in Afcrakistan, per unit deaths are 1/10th what they 'typically' are in large wars but survivable battlefield injuries are 10x higher. I'm not sure that's entirely healthy from a mental aspect when your deployed forces know there's an alarmingly high rate of coming home mutilated, paralyzed, brain damaged, impotent, limbless and so on. Or did you not read "Johnny Got His Gun"?

The other crucial aspect at least from the view of whether women should be deployed or not is that there's no front anymore. There's no distinction between forward and rearward for the vast majority of deployed personnel. I knew a lad 4 tours in Afcrackisan; USMC. He drove a fuel truck - one of the most dangerous jobs in the whole theater. Similarly, women who were killed or injured were in rearward deployment - support, mechanics, logistics, etc. Because in war the way we fight it now about 15% of the total force is what you would call a rifle toting grunt squatting in a hole on the side of Mt HajjiF^ck somewhere in the Sh^t Zone. The other 85% is back at base camp deployed in a support function which is almost as dangerous anyhow. So women who are deployed - it matters little either way from a personal safety view - they're just as exposed as anyone else for the most part.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> Are people here talking about rape just assuming that men do not get raped, in the military or elsewhere...sometimes by other men...also in the military...or not. Often with grave physical and psychological consequences, just as bad or even worse than when women are raped?
> 
> :-o
> 
> Babes in the woods.


The rates are vastly different. The rape levels are far higher in the military than with civilians.
No babe here. Been through it all and grew up researching what the hell happened and what the hell is going on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> The rates are vastly different. The rape levels are far higher in the military than with civilians.
> No babe here. Been through it all and grew up researching what the hell happened and what the hell is going on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Rape may be more common in the military than outside. But I haven't seen proof. The "1 in 3" statistic that is frequently reported is based on an unscientific survey that necessarily inflated the statistics. Once that survey came up with an incredible number, most news stories seem to reference either that survey, or other stories that reference that survey.

There may be issues with rape prosecutions in the military, like the anecdote you mentioned earlier. But I'm not convinced that female soldiers are at increased risk of rape any more than the discredited "1 in 5" statistic for college campuses.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> I remember your story well. He almost got you. The rapist almost got away with it and the male soldiers and their GFs lied to protect him and were charged with nothing.


Yep, that's the story. Thanks goodness for DNA evidence because that's what got the guy convicted.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

BronzeTorpedo said:


> Rape may be more common in the military than outside. But I haven't seen proof. The "1 in 3" statistic that is frequently reported is based on an unscientific survey that necessarily inflated the statistics. Once that survey came up with an incredible number, most news stories seem to reference either that survey, or other stories that reference that survey.
> 
> There may be issues with rape prosecutions in the military, like the anecdote you mentioned earlier. But I'm not convinced that female soldiers are at increased risk of rape any more than the discredited "1 in 5" statistic for college campuses.


I am actually not going off statistics but actual accounts of both men and women I have met.

You are right about statistics, that's why I talk to a lot of people who are actually in it.

Infidelity rates are through the roof as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> I am actually not going off statistics but actual accounts of both men and women I have met.
> 
> You are right about statistics, that's why I talk to a lot of people who are actually in it.
> 
> ...


Relying on anecdotes isn't any better than relying on an unscientific survey. I'm always reminded of an apocryphal quote from Pauline Kael after Nixon's 1972 landslide election victory. She is supposed to have said that she couldn't believe Nixon had won since no one she knew had voted for him.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

BronzeTorpedo said:


> Relying on anecdotes isn't any better than relying on an unscientific survey. I'm always reminded of an apocryphal quote from Pauline Kael after Nixon's 1972 landslide election victory. She is supposed to have said that she couldn't believe Nixon had won since no one she knew had voted for him.


Then what the hell are you relying on? I deal with a lot of shyt from real people in the military and out. There is a definite difference in rape and infidelity.

Where is your knowledge coming from?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I guess you must be using the force since statistics and anecdotal evidence don't work for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

MachoMcCoy said:


> I once read somewhere on here about chicks going into the military for the sex. Some women have as high a sex drive as men. I don't know a woman's mind, but guys: Could you imagine a career opportunity of joining the horny cheerleader army?


I have never heard of a woman going into the military "for sex."


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> I have never heard of a woman going into the military "for sex."


That was a bizarre remark. Never heard of that either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

It reads like a teenage boy's wet dream. Or a porno.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

I spent a few years in the Marines. 

Short answer is no. For many reasons. Put it this way, I cannot think of any good reasons to for a female join. Lots of excellent reasons for guys. Just no place for women.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Pooh Bear said:


> The Marines? She must be pretty kick-a$$. Aren't they the toughest military group?


Yes...!


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

Bridge said:


> Seeing friends who have come back from Iraq I think rape is nothing compared to whatever they've been through.
> 
> Men risk their lives and soul when they fight. Vet suicides are at an all-time-high. I have no idea why women would fight for that job.


Why do men do it? I suppose it is because they feel like a sense of honor and commitment to their country. What are the other reasons? I would imagine there would not be a huge difference in why men choose to serve in the military verses women. It is a hard life from what I have heard from veterans. A hard life in the military and then after you get home. I know two military vets who now have PTSD.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> She was actually raped quite thoroughly.
> 
> I love badass women but there is absolutely no comparison physically.
> 
> ...


Actually more men are raped in the military than women. Check it out:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/24/u...e-overlooked-victims.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

So keeping women out of the military because of rape doesn't make sense. Rape is about power it is not about sexual gratification. I would not know how to change that in the military as I have never been in the military but I think that people in the military can start making those changes.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Pooh Bear said:


> Why do men do it? I suppose it is because they feel like a sense of honor and commitment to their country. What are the other reasons? I would imagine there would not be a huge difference in why men choose to serve in the military verses women. It is a hard life from what I have heard from veterans. A hard life in the military and then after you get home. I know two military vets who now have PTSD.


Beyond service, I did it for my future. A chance to grow up, see the world, get free education and home loans with no down-payment. Things like that. Bachelors and masters was free with GI Bill and scholarships. I paid nothing, just took strategy and planning.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Pooh Bear said:


> Actually more men are raped in the military than women. Check it out:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/24/u...e-overlooked-victims.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
> 
> So keeping women out of the military because of rape doesn't make sense. Rape is about power it is not about sexual gratification. I would not know how to change that in the military as I have never been in the military but I think that people in the military can start making those changes.


That report supports my conviction that women are far more likely to be sexually assaulted than men. It states it very clearly. Men are raped more often in the military than out just like women. They also report it less, just like civilians.

If it were different, I would have no problem with female soldiers mixing with male.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Pooh Bear said:


> Why do men do it? I suppose it is because they feel like a sense of honor and commitment to their country. What are the other reasons? I would imagine there would not be a huge difference in why men choose to serve in the military verses women. It is a hard life from what I have heard from veterans. A hard life in the military and then after you get home. I know two military vets who now have PTSD.


Beyond service, I did it for my future. A chance to grow up, see the world, get free education and home loans with no down-payment. Things like that. Bachelors and masters was free with GI Bill and scholarships. I paid nothing, just took strategy and planning.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

Q tip said:


> Beyond service, I did it for my future. A chance to grow up, see the world, get free education and home loans with no down-payment. Things like that. Bachelors and masters was free with GI Bill and scholarships. I paid nothing, just took strategy and planning.


Yeah. My dad was in the military and it paid for his bachelors degree.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> That report supports my conviction that women are far more likely to be sexually assaulted than men. It states it very clearly. Men are raped more often in the military than out just like women. They also report it less, just like civilians.
> 
> If it were different, I would have no problem with female soldiers mixing with male.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok. But, then, women are raped, in general, more than men period. It doesn't change the fact that attitudes about gender and the way rape is treated needs to change. That doesn't mean that we reward rapists by excluding the victims of rape. That means holding rapists accountable no matter who or where they are. And being ok with men talking about rape. Because there is a huge stigma about men being victims of rape. There is a stigma for women also but it is different for men. They are not allowed to be victims of rape. There is just a lot of work to do surrounding attitudes of rape. 

*Men are raped more often in the military than out just like women. *

This looks incomplete. What did you mean by this?


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

OK, so the way to get men to stop raping women in the military is to remove the women so that the men stop raping women in the military. Great idea. With clear thinking like that, one should be able to become a General or Admiral in no time at all.

Talk to the citizens of Okinawa about rape.

The fact of the matter is, women in the military are raped more often than men because the men outnumber the women. Simple math says that the ratio of male-rapers to female-victims will end up with women being raped more in the military than outside the military. It's all about the size of the herd and probability. The solution to this is MORE women in the military. That will bring the rates down to being comparable with the civilian population.

Back to sex. I wonder why Iceland is a 'promiscuous' country, statistically, but has no military? I wonder what can be going on there to make all those women 'promiscuous'....without a military to join to make them 'like that' hahahahahahaha.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Pooh Bear said:


> *Men are raped more often in the military than out just like women. *
> 
> This looks incomplete. What did you mean by this?


Men are raped more often in the military than out (of the military) just like women are raped more often in the military than out of it.

A question for Home Maker. Since there are higher levels of male rape victims in the military than in the civilian arena, what prompts you to believe that more women equals civilian rape rates?

Women are raped more than men in any environment. What leads you to believe that in an environment where men are getting raped at a higher rate than the general population, that adding more potential female victims will cause female rape rates to magically get lower than that of men?

If it is more dangerous for men in the military, it will be much more dangerous for females in the military.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

*Women are raped more than men in any environment. What leads you to believe that in an environment where men are getting raped at a higher rate than the general population, that adding more potential female victims will cause female rape rates to magically get lower than that of men?*

I will let homemaker address the question about rape rates lowering but either way, rape needs to be addressed. It needs to be addressed in any environment. Keeping women out of situations because of rape just rewards rapists and punishes women. We need to hold rapists accountable for their unacceptable behavior. As long as we continue to look the other the way and not allow women to do things, like be in the military, because of the fear of rape, things will never change.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I won't speak for military but as for law enforcement I think it's great. And more standardized across the board then the military as I recall. Women need to adhere to the same firearm and physical tests that we do. We have done away with gender and age curves. You want to remain officer pass the tests. They also are much better at speaking to the general public than many of my male counterparts. Sure we have some crap female officers. Have some crap male officers. I certainly think they add to our overall effectiveness. That said I woudnt want my daughters to ever become cops.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

*That said I woudnt want my daughters to ever become cops.*

Protective Daddy.  I hear you. I wouldn't want my son to become a police officer. I'm really glad my husband has a desk job. I would be so scared all the time. Same for having one of them in the military.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Pooh Bear said:


> *Women are raped more than men in any environment. What leads you to believe that in an environment where men are getting raped at a higher rate than the general population, that adding more potential female victims will cause female rape rates to magically get lower than that of men?*
> 
> I will let homemaker address the question about rape rates lowering but either way, rape needs to be addressed. It needs to be addressed in any environment. Keeping women out of situations because of rape just rewards rapists and punishes women. We need to hold rapists accountable for their unacceptable behavior. As long as we continue to look the other the way and not allow women to do things, like be in the military, because of the fear of rape, things will never change.


You might be misconstruing my position. I agree with you. The mechanism is broken however and throwing more women into what is essentially a meat grinder is beyond foolish IMO.

The military needed to clean up the truly pathetic environment that is tremendously destructive before integrating women not after.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> You might be misconstruing my position. I agree with you. The mechanism is broken however and throwing more women into what is essentially a meat grinder is beyond foolish IMO.
> 
> The military needed to clean up the truly pathetic environment that is tremendously destructive before integrating women not after.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We agree that the military needs to deal with rape but I do not agree with you that supporting prejudice is the way to fix it. That is kind of like saying, this is a really racist organization. Therefore, we need to keep black people out of it until we fix the racism. That doesn't solve the problem. It's not fair to women who want to go into the military to keep them out because of rape. Men and women can be raped in the military. Maybe women at higher levels but that does not mean that it is any better that men are being raped. So the military needs to clean up rape period. I mean you remove men because of rape and you have no military. It's really sexist and victim blaming to exclude a group of people from an organization _for their protection _as an excuse.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

You and I see the world a little differently. You are falsely assuming I support prejudice because I don't believe turning more of our daughters into pleasure puppets for some bastards is a good way to fix a work environment. We are talking about a career here. A career that, at present, guarantees a very high risk of sexual violation as part of the work environment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> You and I see the world a little differently. You are falsely assuming I support prejudice because I don't believe turning more of our daughters into pleasure puppets for some bastards is a good way to fix a work environment. We are talking about a career here. A career that, at present, guarantees a very high risk of sexual violation as part of the work environment.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You continue to focus on women who are raped. What about men who are raped? Not all women are raped in the military. But it is prejudice to bar someone from an organization solely based on gender or race or sexual identity no matter how well meaning. Do you really think by excluding women that the military will then proceed to change rape policies? Actually I think the more women go in to the military the more those policies will start to change because they will start changing them. Look at what is happening to the NFL. They are being forced to address domestic violence amongst their players because more women are watching. Women are putting pressure on them. I don't think you are giving us the credit we deserve. It is women who have made rape and child abuse and domestic violence issues in the past 40 or 50 years. No one talked about those things before we started talking about them. In fact,experts at the time didn't even believe that rape happened all that often. It was women who started to talk about this. The more of us you have in the military the more we will fight back and the more things will change.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rape is taken as a joke in this country and is far worse in the military. If anything, the situation worsens. I see no improvement in the general population much less the military.

I am a child of the 70's and nearly every female I have ever known has been raped or molested often multiple times.

The law has proven worse than ineffectual, it has enabled rape.

I speak of first hand experiences. The military is only a magnification of the general population. Nothing is getting better.

I think it would be funny if you got the truth at career day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Rape is taken as a joke in this country and is far worse in the military. If anything, the situation worsens. I see no improvement in the general population much less the military.
> 
> I am a child of the 70's and nearly every female I have ever known has been raped or molested often multiple times.
> 
> ...


Outside of the military right? So what do you suggest? Maybe it is time men started standing up for women inside the military and out and not making it easier for other men to rape. Let's face it, men for the most part make the laws, run the military, have the most power in this country and can do a lot to change the way rape is treated. Obviously women can't just disappear. I know you wouldn't suggest we just hide away at home. Even home often is not a guarantee against sexual abuse. So, yes, men need to be part of that conversation. 

I disagree that it is not moving towards getting better. The 1970's is when we started to talk about it. That was only really 40 years ago. Change takes time. But if women and men work together to hold rapists accountable, things will change.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Pooh. You seem sweet and idealistic. A teacher in NY just got probation for raping a 13 year old girl in his own bed. No jail time even.

There are thousands of cases as bad or worse at play right now. It is not getting better. 

I don't want women to hide but be fully informed. I don't believe most young women are informed as to what to look forward to before signing up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Rape is taken as a joke in this country and is far worse in the military. If anything, the situation worsens. I see no improvement in the general population much less the military.
> 
> I am a child of the 70's and nearly every female I have ever known has been raped or molested often multiple times.
> 
> ...


And Conan, you keep avoiding the question I have been asking you about men in the military being raped. Many men in the military are raped. What do you do about that? Do you not believe that men can be raped? Even if you excluded all of the women, there would still be men who are raped. And rape is not about sex; it is about power. It has nothing to do with sexual desire, it is about controlling another person. I noticed you used the term "pleasure puppets." It has nothing to do with sexual fulfillment. It is about controlling another person. Male or female.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I have been raped as a child and witnessed the rape and molestation of my mother and sisters. The men enjoyed themselves just fine and all finished. Have you been raped? Have you seen a loved one fvcked while crying as the rapist moans in pleasure and climaxes?

Do you have first hand experience? I do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Pooh. You seem sweet and idealistic. A teacher in NY just got probation for raping a 13 year old girl in his own bed. No jail time even.
> 
> There are thousands of cases as bad or worse at play right now. It is not getting better.
> 
> ...


A decision made by a male judge I'm assuming. So why don't you start standing up for women as you seem to care about this. There are groups of men who are working towards change. Or you could start a group. It's going to take a lot of you to work together to stop men from making these awful decisions. I am idealistic but I am not unrealistic. I know change can happen. It took us a long time to get the right to vote but we did it. But, we had to have male support. Change can happen in this country but unfortunately unless you are a naturally privileged group in this country, we have to work towards it. And we need the support of the privileged.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> I have been raped as a child and witnessed the rape and molestation of my mother and sisters. The men enjoyed themselves just fine and all finished. Have you been raped? Have you seen a loved one fvcked while crying as the rapist moans in pleasure and climaxes?
> 
> Do you have first hand experience? I do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm so sorry, Conan. Yes, I have been raped. Not as a child. How are you all doing now?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Pooh. I want to apologize. You are a very eloquent and well spoken poster. I am too close to this with too much experience to have a different view.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Pooh. I want to apologize. You are a very eloquent and well spoken poster. I am too close to this with too much experience to have a different view.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope you know that what happened to you and your sisters and mother was not your fault. You all deserved better.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

ConanHub said:


> Rape is taken as a joke in this country and is far worse in the military. If anything, the situation worsens. I see no improvement in the general population much less the military.
> 
> I am a child of the 70's and nearly every female I have ever known has been raped or molested often multiple times.
> 
> ...


Not sure where you come up with this stuff. The max penalty for rape in the U.S. military is the death penalty. What's the max penalty where you live? I was an active duty CID Special Agent for many years and we quite aggressively investigated and prosecuted rapes and sexual assaults. It doesn't help that a large number of those reported turned out to be total fabrications. I got much longer sentences for rape out of military courts than from state civilian courts.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

As you can tell, I still have issues. We were abused for about a 13 year period of time. The sexual abuse didn't bother me as much as seeing my mom and sisters being hurt. The other things throughout the years did more of a number on me. I struggle with rage. My mom tries to forget, my youngest sister is irreparable mentally broken and my second youngest sister has personality disorders.

I became dangerous at 13 and put a stop to it all when I was 14.

I am touchy when experts say that rapists don't sexually enjoy rape. In my experience and research, they do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

The Pentagon's report specifically defines "unfounded" claims as "false or baseless" (page 13). More specifically: "When an MCIO makes a determination that available evidence indicates the individual accused of sexual assault did not commit the offense, or the offense was improperly reported or recorded as a sexual assault, the allegations against the subject are considered to be unfounded. As a result, no action is taken against the accused." (Pages 66-67.) Further, when the "evidence discovered by the investigation demonstrates that the accused person did not commit the offense," the report says "the allegations are determined to be unfounded, meaning false or baseless." (Page 79.)

17% were "unfounded" before going to trial. Doesn't mean the other 83% were legit. 

FY 2009 DOD Sexual Assault Prevention and response report.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Not sure where you come up with this stuff. The max penalty for rape in the U.S. military is the death penalty. What's the max penalty where you live? I was an active duty CID Special Agent for many years and we quite aggressively investigated and prosecuted rapes and sexual assaults. It doesn't help that a large number of those reported turned out to be total fabrications. I got much longer sentences for rape out of military courts than from state civilian courts.


You would have been most welcome in the northwest from the early 70's to the mid 80's. It was far better to cope on your own than to report to local authorities. I talked a GF of mine into reporting her father for raping her and attempted rape of her sister. It was disastrous.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> The Pentagon's report specifically defines "unfounded" claims as "false or baseless" (page 13). More specifically: "When an MCIO makes a determination that available evidence indicates the individual accused of sexual assault did not commit the offense, or the offense was improperly reported or recorded as a sexual assault, the allegations against the subject are considered to be unfounded. As a result, no action is taken against the accused." (Pages 66-67.) Further, when the "evidence discovered by the investigation demonstrates that the accused person did not commit the offense," the report says "the allegations are determined to be unfounded, meaning false or baseless." (Page 79.)
> 
> 17% were "unfounded" before going to trial. Doesn't mean the other 83% were legit.
> 
> FY 2009 DOD Sexual Assault Prevention and response report.


Lovely. How many victims do you know personally?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Pooh. I also hope you have healed well but the hardness in me hopes the bastard that raped you had every bone in both hands shattered for touching you against your will.

Were you able to get justice?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Not sure where you come up with this stuff. The max penalty for rape in the U.S. military is the death penalty. What's the max penalty where you live? I was an active duty CID Special Agent for many years and we quite aggressively investigated and prosecuted rapes and sexual assaults. It doesn't help that a large number of those reported turned out to be total fabrications. I got much longer sentences for rape out of military courts than from state civilian courts.


How many executions have been carried out for rape convictions in the last 40 years? I have seen nothing but shyt sentences handed out in civilian cases.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

ConanHub said:


> Lovely. How many victims do you know personally?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm actually a victim of child sexual abuse, if you just gotta know. I haven't slept with any of the victims who reported to me nor have I been related to them, but I got to know each one quite well. My personal affiliation with them isn't an issue. My job was to get to the truth and personal relationships would have clouded that process. I have tons of sympathy for any victim of rape and you won't find anyone who will work harder to investigate one. Still, facts are facts and all too often an investigation proves the allegation was deliberately and falsely made. There are over 405,000 females in uniform in our military. At their highest, about 3,768 rape/sexual assault reports were made. If 15% are unfounded, that leaves about 3,200 that could be true...out of 405,669. A number of surveys from college campuses put the rape rate around 20%. Given the average tenure of 4 years at college, that means about 5% of college coeds are being raped annually, compared to fewer than .9% in the military. Even the FBI's own stats show that about 8% of rape allegations are false, compared to about 1% false reporting for other crimes. Obviously, soldiers have motivations for making false reports that civilians don't have. 
The notion that the military doesn't take these things seriously is completely insane. I don't imagine your place of business gives mandatory anti-rape lectures to all employees at least four times a year. I guarantee your local city won't spend as much money or manpower investigating a rape complaint as the military will. I also guarantee the odds of someone accused of rape actually getting a full blown criminal trial is a lot lower in all 50 states than it is in the military. 
I don't want any soldier to be raped or sexually assaulted but neither do I want one doing time in Leavenworth for 20 years for a crime they didn't commit. The max penalty in the military for rape is Death. I take these allegations quite seriously but I don't slap cuffs on someone just because someone else told me an ugly story. People do commit rape but people also lie.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Thanks for your perspective. Also sorry for your assault. It seems prolific. Rape might be a more falsely reported crime but it is also a very under reported crime. I'm going to research again because according to your given figures, rape really isn't that much of an issue in the military at all. Far less of a problem than in college at least. Maybe it really is a "nothing to see here" situation and females are actually less likely to be raped there.

I'll review my view.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

While I was in the military, I knew of no rapes or assaults and heard of none reported.

I was aware of one attempted gay related issue, but the perp (gay) was beat up in self defense and was not reported.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

If the woman can do the job, it isn't my place to question her employment.

What I do find surprising is how many male posters jumped on the chance to identify themselves as 'ladies'.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Although.... You are pretty accurate on the amount of reported assaults. Could there be extra incentive to not report in the military?

Did Leon Panetta pull the 19,000 assaults a year out of his ass? 56% were men so that leaves about 8,700 women.

No extra pressure ever brought to bear on a victim? How about individuals being raped multiple times in a year and botched investigations?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Q tip said:


> While I was in the military, I knew of no rapes or assaults and heard of none reported.
> 
> I was aware of one attempted gay related issue, but the perp (gay) was beat up in self defense and was not reported.


That happened to a buddy of mine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> I guess you must be using the force since statistics and anecdotal evidence don't work for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's cute. And it doesn't address my point. There is a common saying that the plural of anecdote is not data. In order to draw valid conclusions about the general population, a researcher has to use hundreds, or preferably, thousands of individual cases. And the researcher has to be wary of things that can lead to faulty conclusions, like focusing on one demographic over others, or using a survey relying on self-selection for reporting.

So, the fact that you know a good many rape victims doesn't prove anything beyond the fact that you know a good many rape victims. Similarly, the veterans on this thread who have posted that they know no military rape victims doesn't prove that military rape victims don't exist. It simply proves that your social circles are different.


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> A number of surveys from college campuses put the rape rate around 20%.


Those surveys were inflated as well. The latest DOJ statistics from December estimate that, rather than 1-in-5 female students being raped in college, a more accurate figure is 0.03-in-5. I believe that number is lower than the general population figure, so the military may be closer to, or even higher than, the general population figure.



> I don't want any soldier to be raped or sexually assaulted but neither do I want one doing time in Leavenworth for 20 years for a crime they didn't commit. The max penalty in the military for rape is Death. I take these allegations quite seriously but I don't slap cuffs on someone just because someone else told me an ugly story. People do commit rape but people also lie.


Amen. Good for you.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

You need to compare the US armed forces with other armies where women serve both in combat-ish roles and armies that are not engaged in any combat ever (like Sweden or Switzerland). Of course you have to adjust for countries that have compulsory service for men vs voluntary service for women.

But only then can you get a grasp of the reality of the situation. 
Women in the military by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

I've said it before, I'll say it again. H is in the military. Currently in his 10th year, 7 deployments under his belt. His career field is primarily men due to the physical aspect of his job. Though there are plenty of women, the ratio of men to women in his career field is about 15:1 at least, if not more.

We have known exactly ZERO women or men in those 10 years to get raped or even report it.

We knew one woman who was sexually harassed by a man. He followed her home one day. She got inside, called her superior. The man who followed her home was suspended from duty and discharged a few weeks later. 

I can only go off of what we know. We've seen several false accusations of people trying to save themselves from losing a stripe or getting a divorce - or both. This causes issues with the system. But that's a different thread all together. 

It happens. But I don't think it's happening at the rate the media is claiming it happens. I think in the past the military had an issue dealing with this. They needed their men to stay in so they would over look it (disgusting, I know). It's not like that anymore. They really are cracking down a lot harder on everyone. There is a class my H goes to every quarter. They have sexual assault prevention officers that specifically come by the squadron periodically and sit everyone down to make sure they understand what is defined as sexual harassment / assault. They also explain the consequences if such actions ever occur.

I think there is definitely still room for improvement. I also think they are working toward that. 

To say that anyone (male or female) joins the military to get sex is ridiculous. No one joins to get sex. People join for their future, to serve the country, lack of other jobs, etc. Sex has nothing to do with it. 

There are those bad apples who get in...just like everywhere else in the U.S.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Taking military and law enforcement opportunities away from women and into solely the hands of men is going to stop violence against women? 

I thought we already tried that.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Pooh. I also hope you have healed well but the hardness in me hopes the bastard that raped you had every bone in both hands shattered for touching you against your will.
> 
> Were you able to get justice?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Legally? No. But years of therapy have helped me emotionally.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I also know many who had good experiences in the military just like several posters. I am going to keep an open mind on this issue. There are a lot of statistics and surveys that contradict what many posters are saying. 

I am still convinced that there are some pretty big cracks people are falling through. It does seem that steps are being taken to correct it.

I am good friends with an army chaplain. In general ministers probably hear more than their share of terrible things that are going on.

How many of you have been stationed in Iraq or Afghanistan?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> Taking military and law enforcement opportunities away from women and into solely the hands of men is going to stop violence against women?
> 
> I thought we already tried that.


Lets be clear. I am for empowering women and giving them the tools to overcome. The dynamic of sexual assault and harassment in the military is a world apart from what civilians deal with.

If I am convinced that woman of any age or rank had serious tools to protect her from even her CO as well as women officers trained in dealing with sexual assault, in easy reach of any potential victim, I'd be satisfied.

There have been, and still are, cases of horrendous abuse of women allowed by command structure. Tossing a woman into a situation where she has no choice but to be owned by her attackers or abusers is what I think is useless.

There are many well documented cases of the situation I just described. Often leading to substance abuse and suicide.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that.girl (Aug 27, 2014)

It's been mentioned that many rapes in the military probably go unreported. And the idea of putting more women in the military to help prevent rape has been questioned. 

But it seems to me like a female soldier might be more likely to report an assault to a female superior officer than to a male one. And justice might be more likely to be served if more women were involved in the process.


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## Marcus588 (May 4, 2014)

I will say I greatly appreciate all the responses. It has given me a lot to think about.

I do wonder just how much rape goes on and how many women lie. 

Years ago I was friends with a girl that was in the Army and I was hanging out with her and a few other friends hanging out, playing games and drinking. She admitted that she was sleeping with her recruiter. He was married with children too. Now sure he's a scumbag but I remember thinking about how awful what she was doing was.

I don't know what happened but it is something I have thought about from time to time.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Marcus588 said:


> I will say I greatly appreciate all the responses. It has given me a lot to think about.
> 
> I do wonder just how much rape goes on and how many women lie.
> 
> ...


So this woman having an affair with a married man some how means that women probably lie about rape?

Got that.. :scratchhead:


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> She was actually raped quite thoroughly.
> 
> I love badass women but there is absolutely no comparison physically.
> 
> ...


I was raped by someone in my squadron.

Everything you said was spot on. There is no justice.

I do not recommend any woman to go to the military. Not because of her ability, but because of the environment.

It shouldn't be like that. It should be about serving our country. The military cannot serve its own members. I just don't understand.

I think when an organization is insular and polices itself, this is the result.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

Pooh Bear said:


> Actually more men are raped in the military than women. Check it out:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/24/u...e-overlooked-victims.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
> 
> So keeping women out of the military because of rape doesn't make sense. Rape is about power it is not about sexual gratification. I would not know how to change that in the military as I have never been in the military but I think that people in the military can start making those changes.


I want to add to this as well. After my assault, I learned that the rape of men is widespread and it was all around me. Then they are silenced. I can speak my story with a lot less judgement. 

That is why I don't like this topic. It's only about women getting raped and that is why they shouldn't join. I say that as well and I forget about the other victims. What about the men?


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Rape is taken as a joke in this country and is far worse in the military. If anything, the situation worsens. I see no improvement in the general population much less the military.
> 
> I am a child of the 70's and nearly every female I have ever known has been raped or molested often multiple times.
> 
> ...


Sorry for so much posting, but I want to thank you. I hear a lot of judgments from people asking why a rape victim doesn't pursue judicial justice. 

It is because there is none.


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## Mrs Chai (Sep 14, 2010)

TLDR: No, I don't support women being in based off of my experience. I describe somewhat of what happened to me but didn't get too much into detail.

I try to not think about my time when I was in the Army and Air Guard. I feel like it was a monumental waste of my youth and regret it. I really have blocked as many memories of my time during that commitment from my mind. So much that sometimes I get surprised when people remember me for Veterans Day - I talk about it so very little.

I joined the Army Guard when I was seventeen. I was a junior in high school. I was a good girl. I went to a country high school. I didn't go to basic until after I graduated, so in the meantime I would drill over my senior year. This was fine, because it was a bunch of other kids like me who had to finish school before going to basic. Nothing bad.

Basic we didn't have time for anything. You were just trying to make it to graduation. I heard of things going down, people hooking up, but I feel like a lot of it is just unfounded rumors.

When I went to my job training I was suddenly mixed in with men and women from 18 to 40. I was very naive, came from a Christian home (read: virgin), and many of the girls there were promiscuous. This could also be an unfounded rumor, but supposedly in my all female barracks there was a group of lesbians that 'did things.' I never investigated what those were, I tried to stay to myself. I made friends with the few girls in my class (88Mike truck driver). They were older than me by 2 to 4 years. One was engaged the other had a boyfriend. By the end of your training you 'earn' the right to go off base overnight during the weekend. Everyone went CRAZY. I was along for the ride. We went to clubs where the girls got way too drunk and at one point I was separated from the group save for the one engaged girl. I didn't know what the name of the hotel was as they had abandoned us. We were in a bar, most people spoke spanish, we were definitely the youngest people in the bar (how did I get in there? I think I was 18 I can't even remember now) and my girl was druuunk. We got a cab and he had been driving people from our base most of the night to this particular hotel, so I just had him take us there. A whole block of the hotel was booked by the boys in my squadron. I showed up with my drunk friend and they offered to let us use one of the rooms. Drunk girl... I don't know what happened to her, I think she went for a smoke and left me in the room alone. 

The guys were drunk too. One of them (he used to talk to me during breaks in class about his girlfriend) started creeping on me, rubbing my arms and smelling me and trying to kiss me and I was so shocked, I had never been treated this way by a man I kept moving away from him, turning my face away so he couldn't actually kiss me and he kept pushing. I don't think I screamed but I know I said 'Stop.' and I was very lucky that he did. He got really angry, punched the wall and left the room just as my drunk classmate returned with a different male classmate (also one with a girlfriend) and they proceeded to make-out and then have sex on the other bed. Right next to me.

Like I wasn't even there.

So I got up and went to the other room full of guys (like 6) and told them what was going on next door and I just wanted to sleep, would they mind if I slept on the floor? And those guys in the room? Awesome. Gentleman. They gave me one of the beds all for myself. 

And that was my experience in the military for the next four years. I was lucky. Very lucky. I was never raped (a couple close calls), but I have been groped, pursued by married men, privy on details of cheating and I often heard the phrase:

"If she's not a Slvt then she's a B*tch."

I chose to be a b*tch.


But, there were also very good men in there too. Men who didn't cheat or weren't inappropriate with a pretty, naive and young girl. I think my ignorance and youth attracted the skeeves. Reflecting on it angers me and scares me by how lucky I was that I didn't turn into another statistic.

Needless to say I got out of that as fast as I could and I never recommend women to join.

Edit: Also as a side note, I struggled greatly with getting basic respect from men throughout my very short career. I was a squad leader and would deal with blatant insubordination and would get no help from my superiors. They found it funny. The only thing that would fix these guys attitude was a good ass kicking, and at 5'1 and about 100lbs soaking wet I wasn't much of a physical threat to assert my 'authority' over them. So I was constantly dealing with people not listening to my orders, screwing up on purpose to get me in trouble, and being treated like I'm an idiot because I had a pair of boobs and a vagina. 

And no, none of this helped in any way in the civilian world, I still run into these problems in the corporate world, though thankfully we are making social pushes for change in this area that are being listened to.

Edit 2: Also, my military training has not been useful for civilian life as I have no desire to be a commercial trucker. I wish I could take those years back and put them into college. Sigh.


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## Observer (Aug 23, 2011)

Mrs Chai said:


> TLDR: No, I don't support women being in based off of my experience. I describe somewhat of what happened to me but didn't get too much into detail.
> 
> I try to not think about my time when I was in the Army and Air Guard. I feel like it was a monumental waste of my youth and regret it. I really have blocked as many memories of my time during that commitment from my mind. So much that sometimes I get surprised when people remember me for Veterans Day - I talk about it so very little.
> 
> ...


I think your experience could of been comperable to college as well or a number of other settings where young people are kept away from society for long periods of times.

I cannot speak much to what some of you are saying. I was Infantry so it was all men. PLDC was the first time I worked with females and it was not a good experience for me. This was 1995. Sexual Harassement was scuh a big deal, you could not even say the word bi**h without getting reprimanded (which happened to me). I still work for the Army and the sheer amount of training we have to take on sexual harassement is more than the civilian sector I can assure you. I guess that is why I feel some obligation to stick up for the military here. The notion it does not care or lets it go is false.

Do rapes happen? Sure...but they happen in College or in general too. I feel awful for those raped, believe me. The men are POS, and digraces for soldiers and human beings.


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## Mrs Chai (Sep 14, 2010)

Observer said:


> I think your experience could of been comperable to college as well or a number of other settings where young people are kept away from society for long periods of times.
> 
> I cannot speak much to what some of you are saying. I was Infantry so it was all men. PLDC was the first time I worked with females and it was not a good experience for me. This was 1995. Sexual Harassement was scuh a big deal, you could not even say the word bi**h without getting reprimanded (which happened to me). I still work for the Army and the sheer amount of training we have to take on sexual harassement is more than the civilian sector I can assure you. I guess that is why I feel some obligation to stick up for the military here. The notion it does not care or lets it go is false.
> 
> Do rapes happen? Sure...but they happen in College or in general too. I feel awful for those raped, believe me. The men are POS, and digraces for soldiers and human beings.


I agree it could happen in college too.

As I was a truck drive I was also in a male dominated job, very few women in my squadron. I don't know of any female infantry. It might be an exposure (to the opposite sex) factor as well. 

This happened in the early 2000s - we never had any discussions or meetings about sexual harassment. 

I went to college when I separated from the military early. I experienced virtually nothing comparable to my time in the military. Even at frat parties, I wasn't ever touched inappropriately and guys backed off when I expressed displeasure. This was not my experience in the military - I began outright avoiding any meet ups that involved alcohol available at them. If I did go to them, I had bodyguards. I kid you not. People thought it was amusing back then, so did I because I didn't know any better but I seriously had to have bouncers if people were drinking because they didn't take kindly to a 'No.'

So as someone who went to both, the military still stands out as the worse of the two.

And I, sadly, wasn't much more worldly when I went to college. A lot of my realizations didn't take place until after I was out of college, in a relationship, and having to examine my past experiences to make some changes on my present.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Not trying to downplay your story at all...what happened was disgusting and completely uncalled for...

But why didn't you just take a cab back to the base? Why would you leave yourself with a bunch of guys after what happened with the guy that punched the wall? I mean, you left that room and went into another room with 6 men and asked to go to sleep in their room. At some people we have to take personal responsibility and get ourselves out of possible danger. I would have been out of there in a heartbeat.

This also does sound like something that could happen just about anywhere - college, house parties, get together, basically anywhere there is large amounts of alcohol involved...

The military is singled out because the media is all over it. People are raped/sexually harassed in alley ways downtown, in trailer parks, in recreational parks, in their homes, on buses, in crowded areas etc, etc. In 10 years I haven't run into a single person (male or female) who has been raped in the military. 

I don't know I guess everyone has their own outlooks on it from our own experiences, and that's ok


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

I got into trouble in the Police because I said that women were far better at dealing with child abuse etc because of their natural maternal instincts and that men were better at being riot control officers because we are just built stronger.

Thats not to say that a male officer can't handle a child abuse victim delicately or a female officer can't be a brute on the front line.

I just think that there are some jobs in life (including military/law enforcement etc) that women are better suited for just as there are jobs more suited to males.

I'm not being sexist, just a realist.


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## chunt (Feb 15, 2012)

Reading this thread I have seen some harrowing stories -- as an active duty female.

I have been really lucky I guess after reading all of this. I joined because I was broke and I wanted a stable reliable career. I do IT work. I joined at 23 and was married, I was also excluded from social settings with work people because I declined invitations once or twice -- so what I made friends with the civilian community and have lots of fun with them instead. 

As far as my job is concerned I really love it. I love my work schedule and I love that I am doing something positive for my country and am needed. 

I do feel left out sometimes but in my late 20s I dont really feel like Im missing much by not going out and getting plastered anyway. I would say to tell her that if her squad wants to go out snowboarding, doing a warrior dash, hiking etc with a mixed gender group than by all means green light. If its any other activity to use her best judgement before proceeding.


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