# The importance of sex to a man in a relationship



## backhand

I'm curious about research and anecdotal responses to this question: Assuming the woman is physically able, how important is sex to a man in a relationship? I ask this question because my wife says that the guys she dated before me (we've been married over 30 years) did not have the sexual energy I have (I'm very confident that my sexual energy is the norm for a man). 

I told her that the importance of sex to a man in a relationship is a primal thing. A decent man has to control his sexual energy in a loving and respectful way and truly appreciate the other facets of a relationship, but, and this was a wild guess, I told her at least 85% of healthy men with options to choose a partner think sex is the most important thing in a relationship. I told her that these kinds of men will pick a woman, realistically or not, based upon the sex or the possibility of it. 

Thanks in advance for your responses.


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## ccpowerslave

I’d say when it’s not a problem then it feels like a small component, and when it is a problem I’d say it’s up there with your figure in terms of importance.


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## hplove

Listen to episode 98 of the Suzanne Venker podcast, a man that doesn't get any is either getting it on the side or dying inside. 
With all that said, you need to continue to make yourself desirable.


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## jsmart

Why is she comparing your prowess to old sex partners that go back over 30 years? If that’s her way to get you to back off, then she’s not overly attracted to you. 

How often are you having sex? If it 2 to 3 times a week, then you’re average and may need to temper yourself a bit. 

The best way to improve your sex life is to make yourself more desirable. A vigorous workout regimen combined with upping your game in terms of your clothing, haircut, beard, and hygiene will get you way more results than trying than talk, do more chores, or be kinder will get you. Not that you shouldn’t do your share, be kind and considerate but those things don’t get her turned on but her noticing other women checking you out will make a difference. Do not neglect having a varied life. ( getting together with friends, hobbies, etc).


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## farsidejunky

Yes, it is typically important to a man.

That said, you are asking the wrong question. 

The right question is, "Is sex important to me?"

It doesn't matter what is important to other men. Your wife is not married to other men; she is married to you.

If it is important to you, she can either choose to meet your needs, or not. Then you have a choice.

If she insists on using 'other relationships' to convince you that you are asking too much, you might go the cynical route.

"Many other marriages also have experienced infidelity. Should we consider that as a viable option? Or should we just focus on making each other feel special in our own relationship?"

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## CountryMike

jsmart said:


> Why is she comparing your prowess to old sex partners that go back over 30 years? If that’s her way to get you to back off, then she’s not overly attracted to you.
> 
> How often are you having sex? If it 2 to 3 times a week, then you’re average and may need to temper yourself a bit.
> 
> The best way to improve your sex life is to make yourself more desirable. A vigorous workout regimen combined with upping your game in terms of your clothing, haircut, beard, and hygiene will get you way more results than trying than talk, do more chores, or be kinder will get you. Not that you shouldn’t do your share, be kind and considerate but those things don’t get her turned on but her noticing other women checking you out will make a difference. Do not neglect having a varied life. ( getting together with friends, hobbies, etc).


Remember, 2 to 3 times a week isn't normal for many at all. 4 to 6 times is very common.


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## ccpowerslave

CountryMike said:


> Remember, 2 to 3 times a week isn't normal for many at all. 4 to 6 times is very common.


The actual figures based on surveys are much lower than that (more like 1x). However average doesn’t matter.

For me if it’s less than 5x I am not happy and thinking about what’s going wrong and why I’m not having enough sex (for me). If I wanted twice that to quiet those thoughts that’s also fine. It doesn’t matter what is normal or common.


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## CountryMike

Sex in a M or ltr is very important. Barring health issues.
Those Ms with a mutually satisfying sex life have that satisfaction bleed over into all aspects of their marriage.


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## ElwoodPDowd

jsmart said:


> How often are you having sex? If it 2 to 3 times a week, then you’re average and may need to temper yourself a bit.


I'd say once a month was average for married guys over 40 years old in the UK.
I had lots of discussions with my pals, they all wanted it 2 or 3 times a week, but nobody was getting that.


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## In Absentia

Brits having sex... not a lot!  









How much sex are Britons having? | YouGov


Just over a quarter of Brits have sex every week - but age makes a big difference




yougov.co.uk


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## ElwoodPDowd

In Absentia said:


> Brits having sex... not a lot!


We accidentally conquered half the world while out looking for women who would have sex with us.


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## CountryMike

ElwoodPDowd said:


> I'd say once a month was average for married guys over 40 years old in the UK.
> I had lots of discussions with my pals, they all wanted it 2 or 3 times a week, but nobody was getting that.


That is horrible to hear.


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## In Absentia

ElwoodPDowd said:


> We accidentally conquered half the world while out looking for women who would have sex with us.


How times have changed...


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## In Absentia

CountryMike said:


> That is horrible to hear.


All my mates are in the same situation... nobody is getting enough sex.


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## Diana7

ElwoodPDowd said:


> I'd say once a month was average for married guys over 40 years old in the UK.
> I had lots of discussions with my pals, they all wanted it 2 or 3 times a week, but nobody was getting that.


I doubt it's average for men in the UK.your pals are not all men.


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## Diana7

CountryMike said:


> That is horrible to hear.


It also almost certainly not true. I remember a survey a few years ago in the UK citing 2-3 times a week as the average. Of course it depends on age as well where as you become elderly it's usually more quality rather than quantity.


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## Diana7

Op, not sure you can claim to be the norm for all men sexually. Most men probably think that but there are massive differences between men and how sexual they are. 
The same with women. 
So your wife may be right.


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## oldshirt

My perspective is that sexuality is what separates our mate from all others and makes our special someone special. 

It’s what makes a marriage a marriage and what separates that’s person from friends, acquaintances, coworkers and people on the street.

Without sexuality, there is no “relationship” in my book. 

Now if someone does not want to have sex with me and is not attracted to me, I understand. I understand and will comply with their wishes to not have sex.

.......but there will be no relationship and no marriage. 

Cont...


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## oldshirt

Cont....

Now as I said, I do understand people not being attracted to someone and understand that they may not want to have sex with them. 

I also understand that people and relationships change over time and that people can lose their attraction to their partner and no longer want to have a sex life with them.

That is sad and unfortunate, but I do understand. 

I also think that people have an inherent right to autonomy over their own bodies and should not be compelled to have sex that they do not want. 

However I do think that many women’s resentment and animosity towards men’s sex drive and need for sexuality in relationship is misplaced. 

It’s our nature. Do we resent the lion for eating the gazelle? Do we resent the cow for eating grass and pooping in the pasture? Do we resent the bear for tearing the bee hive out of the tree and eating all of their honey? 

Do we resent women for wanting a mate that is tall and handsome and is financially stable and successful? 

Is it fair to be resentful and bitter towards our innate nature??


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## BigDaddyNY

There are lots of things that are important in my marriage, but sex with my wife is definitely near the top. It is what makes the relationship a marriage and not just a really good friendship. The only thing I put above sex in order of importance, is fidelity. To me having sex with someone else or not having sex with me is an end to the marriage. I can overlook no sex if there is good reason, but sex with someone else is unforgivable. 

@backhand I think your 85% estimate is pretty accurate. I bet it is closer to 100% if you asked is sex important vs is sex the most important thing in your marriage. I wasn't thinking about marriage at the time, but my overwhelming goal when I started dating my wife was to have sex with her. Sure I loved the company, conversations, etc., but I wanted to bed her. Of course that feeling continued into marriage and remains critically important to our relationship. 

Here are a couple graphics that illustrate the importance of sex in a marriage. There is a biological aspect to the importance of sex and keeping a couple together. 

*High Frequency Sex "Life Cycle"*










*Low Frequency Sex "Life Cycle"*


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## In Absentia

Diana7 said:


> It also almost certainly not true. I remember a survey a few years ago in the UK citing 2-3 times a week as the average. Of course it depends on age as well where as you become elderly it's usually more quality rather than quantity.


In the survey I posted, it's once or twice a week... when you get "older", the "meetings" start decreasing in number. These are "averages", so there might be people (lots on TAM ) having sex every day of the week...


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## LATERILUS79

backhand said:


> I'm curious about research and anecdotal responses to this question: Assuming the woman is physically able, how important is sex to a man in a relationship? I ask this question because my wife says that the guys she dated before me (we've been married over 30 years) did not have the sexual energy I have (I'm very confident that my sexual energy is the norm for a man).
> 
> I told her that the importance of sex to a man in a relationship is a primal thing. A decent man has to control his sexual energy in a loving and respectful way and truly appreciate the other facets of a relationship, but, and this was a wild guess, I told her at least 85% of healthy men with options to choose a partner think sex is the most important thing in a relationship. I told her that these kinds of men will pick a woman, realistically or not, based upon the sex or the possibility of it.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your responses.


I look at it as a necessity. Best way I can put it is “what is needed for survival?”

water, food, shelter.

once the survival basics are handled, then you can look forward to working on “living” and quality of life.

there is no relationship without love and sex. They are essential. They are the building blocks of the relationship. All the other things in a relationship are great for making it long lasting and more enjoyable.


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## backhand

Thanks for all of the replies. Just to be clear, I didn't post to analyze my wife's comment to me about my sexual energy. I am just curious to read how others might answer my original question with all of its caveats (e.g., the woman is physically able/the man knows the difference between lovemaking and selfish sex/the man has a choice among partners). 

My own guess of 85% was based on trying to be objective about my life experience among other men (I am 58) and reading material that didn't have an agenda related to the subject.


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## In Absentia

backhand said:


> Thanks for all of the replies. Just to be clear, I didn't post to analyze my wife's comment to me about my sexual energy. I am just curious to read how others might answer my original question with all of its caveats (e.g., the woman is physically able/the man knows the difference between lovemaking and selfish sex/the man has a choice among partners).
> 
> My own guess of 85% was based on trying to be objective about my life experience among other men (I am 58) and reading material that didn't have an agenda related to the subject.


I'm 58 too. Sex is very important to me. When my wife unilaterally decided it was time to stop our sexual relationship (3 years ago), the marriage finished. I don't see the point in being married without sex. You are brother and sister or friends. So, yes, for me, sex is the marriage glue.


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## DudeInProgress

ElwoodPDowd said:


> I'd say once a month was average for married guys over 40 years old in the UK.
> I had lots of discussions with my pals, they all wanted it 2 or 3 times a week, but nobody was getting that.


That’s pathetic. If that’s really the average, it’s just another confirmation that if you want a good life, don’t be average so you don’t have to accept average


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## 346745

backhand said:


> I'm curious about research and anecdotal responses to this question: Assuming the woman is physically able, how important is sex to a man in a relationship? I ask this question because my wife says that the guys she dated before me (we've been married over 30 years) did not have the sexual energy I have (I'm very confident that my sexual energy is the norm for a man).
> 
> I told her that the importance of sex to a man in a relationship is a primal thing. A decent man has to control his sexual energy in a loving and respectful way and truly appreciate the other facets of a relationship, but, and this was a wild guess, I told her at least 85% of healthy men with options to choose a partner think sex is the most important thing in a relationship. I told her that these kinds of men will pick a woman, realistically or not, based upon the sex or the possibility of it.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your responses.





backhand said:


> I'm curious about research and anecdotal responses to this question: Assuming the woman is physically able, how important is sex to a man in a relationship? I ask this question because my wife says that the guys she dated before me (we've been married over 30 years) did not have the sexual energy I have (I'm very confident that my sexual energy is the norm for a man).
> 
> I told her that the importance of sex to a man in a relationship is a primal thing. A decent man has to control his sexual energy in a loving and respectful way and truly appreciate the other facets of a relationship, but, and this was a wild guess, I told her at least 85% of healthy men with options to choose a partner think sex is the most important thing in a relationship. I told her that these kinds of men will pick a woman, realistically or not, based upon the sex or the possibility of it.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your responses.


Basically, men need sex to feel loved, women need to feel loved to have sex. There it is. Is it more important to men? Probably. I speak from 27 years of marriage.


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## 346745

DudeInProgress said:


> That’s pathetic. If that’s really the average, it’s just another confirmation that if you want a good life, don’t be average so you don’t have to accept average


Amen! Average 7 to 8 times a month here. Ages 60 and 62. Bottom line? Use it or lose it.


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## oldshirt

BigDaddyNY said:


> There are lots of things that are important in my marriage, but sex with my wife is definitely near the top. It is what makes the relationship a marriage and not just a really good friendship. The only thing I put above sex in order of importance, is fidelity. To me having sex with someone else or not having sex with me is an end to the marriage. I can overlook no sex if there is good reason, but sex with someone else is unforgivable.
> 
> @backhand I think your 85% estimate is pretty accurate. I bet it is closer to 100% if you asked is sex important vs is sex the most important thing in your marriage. I wasn't thinking about marriage at the time, but my overwhelming goal when I started dating my wife was to have sex with her. Sure I loved the company, conversations, etc., but I wanted to bed her. Of course that feeling continued into marriage and remains critically important to our relationship.
> 
> Here are a couple graphics that illustrate the importance of sex in a marriage. There is a biological aspect to the importance of sex and keeping a couple together.
> 
> *High Frequency Sex "Life Cycle"*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Low Frequency Sex "Life Cycle"*



I think the graphics are quite accurate. 

I’m kind of surprised that wives don’t make their husbands have sex. When a guy has an empty tank, he is so much more agreeable and cooperative and pleasant to be around. 

Considering how men behave with a full tank vs an empty tank, I’m surprised women aren’t driving the Sex Bus and aren’t insisting on a daily dose just to keep the peace and tranquillity.


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## Rowan

oldshirt said:


> I’m kind of surprised that wives don’t make their husbands have sex. When a guy has an empty tank, he is so much more agreeable and cooperative and pleasant to be around.
> 
> Considering how men behave with a full tank vs an empty tank, I’m surprised women aren’t driving the Sex Bus and aren’t insisting on a daily dose just to keep the peace and tranquillity.


I find it very much a libido killer if a guy needs me to manage his emotional equilibrium for him with sex. Been there, done that, divorced that. And I will never tolerate it in a relationship again. 

I'm moderate drive and my husband and I have a very healthy sex life that works for both of us. But, if he needed me to manage his emotions for him with sex, then we just wouldn't be compatible. And we wouldn't be married. Luckily, my husband does_ not_ need that from me.

I like men with emotional stability, self-confidence and self-control. I also bring those things to the table. I don't make my partner responsible for dealing with bad attitude, emotional outbursts, or bi*chy-ness from me. I'm entirely unwilling to deal with those things from a partner. For any reason. If my partner needs more sex, then that needs to be _a conversation_ - not a sulky, pissy, fit.


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## DudeInProgress

It’s paramount. It’s what separates marriage/romantic relationships from friends/business partners.

It’s certainly not the only thing that matters, or even necessarily the most important, but it is one of the core foundational pillars of a healthy, satisfying marriage. 
Without it, you don’t have a marriage (caveat given for the reality that at some point, folks do get old and frail).


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## RebuildingMe

Rowan said:


> I find it very much a libido killer if a guy needs me to manage his emotional equilibrium for him with sex. Been there, done that, divorced that. And I will never tolerate it in a relationship again.
> 
> I'm moderate drive and my husband and I have a very healthy sex life that works for both of us. But, if he needed me to manage his emotions for him with sex, then we just wouldn't be compatible. And we wouldn't be married. Luckily, my husband does_ not_ need that from me.
> 
> I like men with emotional stability, self-confidence and self-control. I also bring those things to the table. I don't make my partner responsible for dealing with bad attitude, emotional outbursts, or bi*chy-ness from me. I'm entirely unwilling to deal with those things from a partner. For any reason. If my partner needs more sex, then that needs to be _a conversation_ - not a sulky, pissy, fit.


I appreciate your honesty, but it sounds like you guys don’t have much of a sex life. So it a husband wants sex, he needs to practice self control? I don’t agree with that at all. You’re dodging his needs by convincing yourself a) it’s not a need for him or b) if it is a need, he needs to deal with that because you won’t.


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## Rus47

Diana7 said:


> It also almost certainly not true. I remember a survey a few years ago in the UK citing 2-3 times a week as the average. Of course it depends on age as well where as *you become elderly it's usually more quality rather than quantity*.


And *elderly* would be?


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## romantic_dreamer

I can't imagine happy marriage without satisfying sexual and intimate relationship. My wife could be very beautiful, wonderful wife, cook, mother etc. but if we could not connect sexually I would never be able to live with her. And nothing can replace sex.


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## johndoe12299

jsmart said:


> Why is she comparing your prowess to old sex partners that go back over 30 years? If that’s her way to get you to back off, then she’s not overly attracted to you.
> 
> How often are you having sex? If it 2 to 3 times a week, then you’re average and may need to temper yourself a bit.
> 
> The best way to improve your sex life is to make yourself more desirable. A vigorous workout regimen combined with upping your game in terms of your clothing, haircut, beard, and hygiene will get you way more results than trying than talk, do more chores, or be kinder will get you. Not that you shouldn’t do your share, be kind and considerate but those things don’t get her turned on but her noticing other women checking you out will make a difference. Do not neglect having a varied life. ( getting together with friends, hobbies, etc).


is 2-3x a week really average? That seems very good


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## LATERILUS79

Rowan said:


> I find it very much a libido killer if a guy needs me to manage his emotional equilibrium for him with sex. Been there, done that, divorced that. And I will never tolerate it in a relationship again.
> 
> I'm moderate drive and my husband and I have a very healthy sex life that works for both of us. But, if he needed me to manage his emotions for him with sex, then we just wouldn't be compatible. And we wouldn't be married. Luckily, my husband does_ not_ need that from me.
> 
> I like men with emotional stability, self-confidence and self-control. I also bring those things to the table. I don't make my partner responsible for dealing with bad attitude, emotional outbursts, or bi*chy-ness from me. I'm entirely unwilling to deal with those things from a partner. For any reason. If my partner needs more sex, then that needs to be _a conversation_ - not a sulky, pissy, fit.


Rowan, i find the majority of your posts very based and reasonable. I also find myself agreeing with you the majority of the time. This is interesting for me because I’m either not understanding you, or I find myself in disagreement.

Im curious what you mean by “emotional equilibrium”. What does that entail? I can tell you from my own personal experience, no sex caused SERIOUS resentment for my wife. I didn’t yell at her, I didn’t treat her poorly, I didn’t abuse her nor did I sulk - I also never took her out, I never bothered helping her with anything, I wasn’t going to do extra nice husbandly things for her. I mean, why would I? Sex is an absolute basic requirement to a relationship. I never stopped loving my wife, but I wasn’t in love with her. I felt like she had put me in a prison. Call it a “loyalty and integrity” prison. She knows I would never cheat on her….. but she wouldn’t have sex with me and i can’t get it from anywhere else. Yeah, it’s quite a recipe for serious resentment. We were roommates.

then one day she miraculously woke up. We have sex ALL the time. It’s wonderful. I’ve fallen back in love with my wife. I can’t stop thinking about her. She’s the first thing I think of when I wake and the last before I fall asleep. I walk around the house looking for things to do for her. I take time out of my day thinking of thoughtful gifts I could give her. I think about ways I can free up time in our schedule where I can give her back some free time where she would be busy with obligations or the kids (we are both very introverted, so getting alone time is very important to both of us)

what I’m getting at is this: sex is a basic requirement for relationships. All the other great things that come with a relationship cannot happen without sex.


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## ccpowerslave

I can say it has been almost 48 hours since I had sex and it is consuming most of my thoughts. So right now probably more important to me than food. 

If I had to pick between going to bed hungry and having sex or eating dinner and no sex, easy choice I pick the sex!

I agree with @LATERILUS79 I’d say that when it is absent it becomes a serious problem and extremely important. Again this probably depends on the individual.


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## LATERILUS79

ccpowerslave said:


> I can say it has been almost 48 hours since I had sex and it is consuming most of my thoughts. So right now probably more important to me than food.
> 
> If I had to pick between going to bed hungry and having sex or eating dinner and no sex, easy choice I pick the sex!
> 
> I agree with @LATERILUS79 I’d say that when it is absent it becomes a serious problem and extremely important. Again this probably depends on the individual.


The only time I could see it not being a problem is if an LD person chose another LD person as a spouse.

we Know that isn’t a possibility though. LD people seemed to be drawn to HD people so they can set up the misery dynamic! 😂


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## RebuildingMe

johndoe12299 said:


> is 2-3x a week really average? That seems very good


It is good. Very good. Be careful what you believe here. Some people have a “real” truth and and “internet” truth.


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## LATERILUS79

RebuildingMe said:


> It is good. Very good. Be careful what you believe here. Some people have a “real” truth and and “internet” truth.


Agreed. For years I would have settled for twice a week. That would have been amazing.

on TAM? Seems like everyone here is 6-8 times a week….. at age 65. So, I’m actually not gonna believe that. If you can get twice a week, that is pretty healthy.


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## RebuildingMe

LATERILUS79 said:


> Rowan, i find the majority of your posts very based and reasonable. I also find myself agreeing with you the majority of the time. This is interesting for me because I’m either not understanding you, or I find myself in disagreement.
> 
> Im curious what you mean by “emotional equilibrium”. What does that entail? I can tell you from my own personal experience, no sex caused SERIOUS resentment for my wife. I didn’t yell at her, I didn’t treat her poorly, I didn’t abuse her nor did I sulk - I also never took her out, I never bothered helping her with anything, I wasn’t going to do extra nice husbandly things for her. I mean, why would I? Sex is an absolute basic requirement to a relationship. I never stopped loving my wife, but I wasn’t in love with her. I felt like she had put me in a prison. Call it a “loyalty and integrity” prison. She knows I would never cheat on her….. but she wouldn’t have sex with me and i can’t get it from anywhere else. Yeah, it’s quite a recipe for serious resentment. We were roommates.
> 
> then one day she miraculously woke up. We have sex ALL the time. It’s wonderful. I’ve fallen back in love with my wife. I can’t stop thinking about her. She’s the first thing I think of when I wake and the last before I fall asleep. I walk around the house looking for things to do for her. I take time out of my day thinking of thoughtful gifts I could give her. I think about ways I can free up time in our schedule where I can give her back some free time where she would be busy with obligations or the kids (we are both very introverted, so getting alone time is very important to both of us)
> 
> what I’m getting at is this: sex is a basic requirement for relationships. All the other great things that come with a relationship cannot happen without sex.


Most women never have the “awakening” your wife did. Many bury their heads in the sand and know it’s a problem but won’t do a damn thing to fix it. Their head only pops up when they find out their husbands cheated or filed for divorce.


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## RebuildingMe

LATERILUS79 said:


> Agreed. For years I would have settled for twice a week. That would have been amazing.
> 
> on TAM? Seems like everyone here is 6-8 times a week….. at age 65. So, I’m actually not gonna believe that. If you can get twice a week, that is pretty healthy.


I read one that claimed “average” 10x a week, married over 20 years. Yep, whatever.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

RebuildingMe said:


> Most women never have the “awakening” your wife did. Many bury their heads in the sand and know it’s a problem but won’t do a damn thing to fix it. Their head only pops up when they find out their husbands cheated or filed for divorce.


I really can't blame men that have affairs if their wife is withholding or simply won't touch them. What did she expect would happen?


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## LATERILUS79

RebuildingMe said:


> Most women never have the “awakening” your wife did. Many bury their heads in the sand and know it’s a problem but won’t do a damn thing to fix it. Their head only pops up when they find out their husbands cheated or filed for divorce.


Agreed. I was about half way through my 3-year detachment phase. I was finally ready to leave. I loved my wife very much, but as far as I was concerned, our relationship had run it’s course. I was disgusted with her and I was disgusted with myself for allowing to go on for so long.
As far as I was concerned, I didn’t owe her any heads up. I had about 1-1.5 years to go to fully detach from her and I was going to just deliver her some divorce papers. She didn’t want me and I did a damn good job of taking care of her for a very long time. It was time for me to walk away and let my resentment go and feel better and have a fulfilling life.

then she went all in and screwed up my plans (and my head) back in December. It’s what brought me to TAM in the first place. It’s going to take some time. We have A LOT of past issues to work through so I can get my head on straight. Jumping from full on resentment to madly in love with the same person has been a mind f*ck. I’m not fully over my resentment - but I desperately want to get there. In addition, I’m forcing the issue of constantly discussing our issues and letting her know this is now the new normal. I will never again return to a dead bedroom. I can’t go back to being so lenient. She’s either with me or we go out separate ways. She’s done enough to where she has earned to know about my bailout plan, and I have told her as much. I would NEVER cheat on my wife - but I will no longer wait for her. We will keep the course we are on assuming normal physiological circumstances hold. Obviously things change as we age and we will address those as they come - but they WILL be addressed, and they Must be addressed very quickly.


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## LATERILUS79

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I really can't blame men that have affairs if their wife is withholding or simply won't touch them. What did she expect would happen?


i understand what you are saying. I truly do. I dealt with a dead bedroom for 16 years. I never cheated. I refuse to drop my loyalty and integrity. I also refuse to hurt another human being in such a horrific way. It is unforgivable.

you have to buck up and divorce. You can’t lower yourself to cheating.

that being said, LD people that hold HD people in sexless marriages are supremely selfish and should be told as much. It shouldn’t be taboo to divorce an LD person. You are supposed to have sex with your spouse. If you can’t, then why stay married?


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## DudeInProgress

RebuildingMe said:


> It is good. Very good. Be careful what you believe here. Some people have a “real” truth and and “internet” truth.


1. Always take everything strangers on the internet say with a grain of salt.
2. That being said, 2-3 times/ week is my average. That doesn’t always mean 2-3 full blown, extended sessions, but having sex less than 2 times/week on a regular basis would be problematic for me. 
It’s sad that some people accept that in their marriage.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

LATERILUS79 said:


> i understand what you are saying. I truly do. I dealt with a dead bedroom for 16 years. I never cheated. I refuse to drop my loyalty and integrity. I also refuse to hurt another human being in such a horrific way. It is unforgivable.
> 
> you have to buck up and divorce. You can’t lower yourself to cheating.
> 
> that being said, LD people that hold HD people in sexless marriages are supremely selfish and should be told as much. It shouldn’t be taboo to divorce an LD person. You are supposed to have sex with your spouse. If you can’t, then why stay married?


Like rejecting someone for 16 years is less horrific. It just breaks you more slowly so you barely notice it until you break free.


----------



## RebuildingMe

LATERILUS79 said:


> Agreed. I was about half way through my 3-year detachment phase. I was finally ready to leave. I loved my wife very much, but as far as I was concerned, our relationship had run it’s course. I was disgusted with her and I was disgusted with myself for allowing to go on for so long.
> As far as I was concerned, I didn’t owe her any heads up. I had about 1-1.5 years to go to fully detach from her and I was going to just deliver her some divorce papers. She didn’t want me and I did a damn good job of taking care of her for a very long time. It was time for me to walk away and let my resentment go and feel better and have a fulfilling life.
> 
> then she went all in and screwed up my plans (and my head) back in December. It’s what brought me to TAM in the first place. It’s going to take some time. We have A LOT of past issues to work through so I can get my head on straight. Jumping from full on resentment to madly in love with the same person has been a mind f*ck. I’m not fully over my resentment - but I desperately want to get there. In addition, I’m forcing the issue of constantly discussing our issues and letting her know this is now the new normal. I will never again return to a dead bedroom. I can’t go back to being so lenient. She’s either with me or we go out separate ways. She’s done enough to where she has earned to know about my bailout plan, and I have told her as much. I would NEVER cheat on my wife - but I will no longer wait for her. We will keep the course we are on assuming normal physiological circumstances hold. Obviously things change as we age and we will address those as they come - but they WILL be addressed, and they Must be addressed very quickly.


Trust but verify. Most can only keep up the act a couple of months. Yours has for nearly a year, so positive signs. I wish you guys the best. I hate to see relationships break up over sex, but money and sex seem to be the biggest drivers of failed relationships.


----------



## Rowan

RebuildingMe said:


> I appreciate your honesty, but it sounds like you guys don’t have much of a sex life. So it a husband wants sex, he needs to practice self control? I don’t agree with that at all. You’re dodging his needs by convincing yourself a) it’s not a need for him or b) if it is a need, he needs to deal with that because you won’t.



I'm not dodging my husband's sexual needs. I'm not sure where you got that idea from. I know a mutually fulfilling sexual relationship is a need for him, as it is for most men. As it is for me. We absolutely have one. And, yes, he would agree with that statement 

I just don't hold my partner responsible for keeping me in a good mood. My good mood comes from within me and I share it with him. He doesn't have to do anything for me to keep me from being a grumpy ass to him. In fact, me being a grumpy ass would make him much less likely to want to do things for me, like meet my top emotional needs.

I just expect that same self-management from him. I want to have a great sex life with my husband. And I do. But I want to have sex with him because we both desire each other, not because he needs me to keep him in a good mood. Having to have sex just to keep him from being a grumpy ass isn't sexy or attractive. It turns sex from a mutually fulfilling thing we both desire into a chore on the to do list. That just doesn't work for me. It's a turn-off.


----------



## 346745

In Absentia said:


> I'm 58 too. Sex is very important to me. When my wife unilaterally decided it was time to stop our sexual relationship (3 years ago), the marriage finished. I don't see the point in being married without sex. You are brother and sister or friends. So, yes, for me, sex is the marriage glue.


Exactly what my wife said years ago. "The glue of a marriage"


----------



## LATERILUS79

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Like rejecting someone for 16 years is less horrific. It just breaks you more slowly so you barely notice it until you break free.


I've spoken about it at length with some other members here. I'm coming to grips with that. It is a fair point. 

I still feel that cheating is the ultimate disrespectful betrayal one can do to their spouse. It's the kind of crap that causes some people to commit suicide. 

But I've gotten to the point that dead bedrooms are a close second. I want it to become normalized to divorce over dead bedrooms. It still feels like it is taboo to me (or where I live). Not many Will question a divorce over infidelity, but people will harass the HD person for divorcing over a dead bedroom as if they are doing something wrong to the LD person, when it is the LD person that is 100% to blame with their disgusting level of selfishness. Why LD people don't go seek other LD people is beyond me....

In addition, I have less sympathy for a betrayed spouse that had caused a dead bedroom. I don't believe they deserved to be cheated on. I wouldn't wish that upon my worst enemy..... but I understand why it happened. It is always said that the infidelity is 100% the cheaters fault. I agree - but in the case of a dead bedroom, I firmly believe the LD person could have stopped it before it got to that point. I only need to look at my life as a prime example. I've had to remove myself from situations for fear that my will would break and I would do something I could never take back. Unfortunately, this caused me to resent my wife even more since it could see a light at the end of a tunnel. I could possibly go find someone who could treat me correctly. It was HARD to remove myself from these situations. I can understand why some people would give in.


----------



## ccpowerslave

LATERILUS79 said:


> The only time I could see it not being a problem is if an LD person chose another LD person as a spouse.
> 
> we Know that isn’t a possibility though. LD people seemed to be drawn to HD people so they can set up the misery dynamic! 😂


I doubt there are many exact matches so I think usually someone is HD and LD it’s just not an issue if they’re close enough.


----------



## LATERILUS79

ccpowerslave said:


> I doubt there are many exact matches so I think usually someone is HD and LD it’s just not an issue if they’re close enough.


I say it from a standpoint where its just no where near close. Those are the ones I run across the majority of the time. I want it every day. This hasn't changed since the day I met my wife 20 years ago and she has always been well aware of this. I would have settled and been fulfilled with twice a week. What I've explained here is what I would consider "close enough". What I don't get are the people like my wife. 2.5 years of sex every day when we first started dating. 2.5 years is a long term relationship. It is NOT new relationship energy. Then she shut if off. Had a full year of no sex at all, but at the same time, had sex 3 times a week during her pregnancy. Most of the dead bedroom years was twice a month. Now, people that go without sex for years are going to say, "Twice a month is great!". No. No it isn't. Not when the delta is so large. Once every 14-15 days is essentially nothing as as far as I am concerned. 

Yes, exact matches are near impossible. I get that for sure. Compromise is necessary, but it has to be within reason. LD people KNOW they are getting involved with HD people where the gap is extremely large. They fool the HD person into believing that they are on par with them, only to shut it off once they get what they want.

My issue is with LD people that selfishly force the situation heavily in their favor. An HD person can obviously not do this. So yeah, its going to probably take me years to get over this kind of resentment with LD people. I find their actions to be abhorent and disgusting. LD people are nothing but leeches. They get all of their needs met and suck the life out of their HD spouses. (Please note, men and women do this. This is not a one sided problem). I want people to learn a lesson from me. Don't be like me. Don't build years of resentment. It isn't worth it. Lose friends if you have to because they think it is wrong to divorce over a lack of sex issue, but don't be me. The misery is close to unbearable - and the LD person is straight up all out of f*cks to give. It is impossible for LD people to care less about watching their HD spouse suffer. As much as I truly love my wife, I know it is going to take me years to forgive her. Hell, its probably going to take me years to forgive myself for allowing this to happen.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Believe me I know how it is. I just distracted myself with other things for most of the time. As soon as I wasn’t distracted then it hit me like a grand piano falling on an old lady.


----------



## LATERILUS79

ccpowerslave said:


> Believe me I know how it is. I just distracted myself with other things for most of the time. As soon as I wasn’t distracted then it hit me like a grand piano falling on an old lady.


THAT'S THE TRUTH. You hit it on the head cc. It was my only escape from misery and I didn't know I was doing it half the time. It was almost like my brain was saving itself from a deep depression. The number of hobbies grew, the time by myself grew.... I would do anything to occupy my mind instead of thinking about how the love my life was slowly killing me and she just didn't freaking care. 

This is the main issue we are currently dealing with. I desperately want to get over my resentment, but she needs to apologize. We will discuss every last heartbreaking moment over the last 20 years that hit me the hardest. Moments where she truly stepped on me. I require apologies for these in order to heal and move forward, otherwise all the sex in the world won't help. I can't rugsweep these things. I'm not saying this from some sort of "sainthood" standpoint. I'm human. I make a sh1t ton of mistakes, but I will not take any blame for the dead bedroom. None. Sex is a basic need for relationship and it MUST happen first before other needs and desires of love are met. Period. It is impossible for me to change my mind on this. All the other, "Well what about x,y,z? I need those things to feel loved.". Great. A mutual sexual relationship has to come first or we are simply friends. In that case, lets divorce and be best friends forever!


----------



## ccpowerslave

LATERILUS79 said:


> A mutual sexual relationship has to come first or we are simply friends. In that case, lets divorce and be best friends forever!


My new girlfriend(s) wouldn’t have liked that.


----------



## DudeInProgress

LATERILUS79 said:


> I say it from a standpoint where its just no where near close. Those are the ones I run across the majority of the time. I want it every day. This hasn't changed since the day I met my wife 20 years ago and she has always been well aware of this. I would have settled and been fulfilled with twice a week. What I've explained here is what I would consider "close enough". What I don't get are the people like my wife. 2.5 years of sex every day when we first started dating. 2.5 years is a long term relationship. It is NOT new relationship energy. Then she shut if off. Had a full year of no sex at all, but at the same time, had sex 3 times a week during her pregnancy. Most of the dead bedroom years was twice a month. Now, people that go without sex for years are going to say, "Twice a month is great!". No. No it isn't. Not when the delta is so large. Once every 14-15 days is essentially nothing as as far as I am concerned.
> 
> Yes, exact matches are near impossible. I get that for sure. Compromise is necessary, but it has to be within reason. LD people KNOW they are getting involved with HD people where the gap is extremely large. They fool the HD person into believing that they are on par with them, only to shut it off once they get what they want.
> 
> My issue is with LD people that selfishly force the situation heavily in their favor. An HD person can obviously not do this. So yeah, its going to probably take me years to get over this kind of resentment with LD people. I find their actions to be abhorent and disgusting. LD people are nothing but leeches. They get all of their needs met and suck the life out of their HD spouses. (Please note, men and women do this. This is not a one sided problem). I want people to learn a lesson from me. Don't be like me. Don't build years of resentment. It isn't worth it. Lose friends if you have to because they think it is wrong to divorce over a lack of sex issue, but don't be me. The misery is close to unbearable - and the LD person is straight up all out of f*cks to give. It is impossible for LD people to care less about watching their HD spouse suffer. As much as I truly love my wife, I know it is going to take me years to forgive her. Hell, its probably going to take me years to forgive myself for allowing this to happen.


Your last sentence is about the only thing worth considering in all of this. This is all on you for allowing and tolerating such an unacceptable situation. 
And it’s incumbent on you to improve your situation or get yourself out of it.

It’s also mind boggling to me how so many men in dead bedroom (or even infidelity) situations talk about how much pain they’re in because of the disinterest/neglect of their wife, only to rationalize it because they really love their wife. 
With her lack of regard for you and all the misery she’s putting you through, what the hell are you in love with?

Maybe if you chose to love your wife a little less and respect yourself a little more you wouldn’t have spent so long in such a miserable (and unnecessary) situation.


----------



## LATERILUS79

DudeInProgress said:


> Your last sentence is about the only thing worth considering in all of this. This is all on you for allowing and tolerating such an unacceptable situation.
> And it’s incumbent on you to improve your situation or get yourself out of it.
> 
> It’s also mind boggling to me how so many men in dead bedroom (or even infidelity) situations talk about how much pain they’re in because of the disinterest/neglect of their wife, only to rationalize it because they really love their wife.
> With her lack of regard for you and all the misery she’s putting you through, what the hell are you in love with?
> 
> Maybe if you chose to love your wife a little less and respect yourself a little more you wouldn’t have spent so long in such a miserable (and unnecessary) situation.


Much longer story with many more twists and turns that put me in a situation that made things considerably more difficult and a lot of other heartache along the way including a couple massive lies of omission that I just now learned as of 3 months ago. 

You didn't know this, though. Without all the extra information, I'm just about 100% lockstep agreement with you. Many situations are going to have some more black and white to them. Mine got a little more muddled into the gray. These are things we are working on. 

My wife is the only person on this planet that truly knows me and took the time to get to know me. She is worth loving when she isn't so damned closed off emotionally. When she shows me how much she loves me through our sexual relationship, I am at peace. Shes the only one I want; she's the only one I've EVER wanted. I have a LOT of resentment to get through, but I will beat it one way or the other and we are working towards that right now. Things have been better these past 9 months Than what they were during the first two years. It's been that good. It is worth it to me to fight for it, but I am considerably wiser now than that stupid 20's kid I used to be. Like I said; I ain't perfect and I ain't no Saint. 

If we continue to work together, I am confident that I can put the subpar 16 years in the past and be done with it. It is what it is and we move on. If we can't work together, I still forget those 16 years as it won't help me to dwell on it and I move on with my life on my own. Either way, I will come out of this better.


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## AGoodFlogging

My view is that marriage is like a chair. For most couples sex is one of the legs (I.e. it isn't the only thing keeping your arse off the floor but it is one of the things). Saw off a leg and see how well the chair works.


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## ccpowerslave

DudeInProgress said:


> Maybe if you chose to love your wife a little less and respect yourself a little more you wouldn’t have spent so long in such a miserable (and unnecessary) situation.


This is kind of what happens when you execute the 180 (correctly). For me it actually took around two years by the the time I started realizing I (we) had a problem to fixing it.

Of course I knew it before and was affected by it much earlier, probably around the length of time @LATERILUS79 was and the same drip feed level of 2-3x a month. It never bubbled up to me as being critical to my relationship until I stripped out all the things I was doing that distracted me from it. Once that happened then it was shocking to me how bad it really was, but it took me around 2 years to figure that out all the way to the point where I was prepared to pull the ripcord.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

LATERILUS79 said:


> I say it from a standpoint where its just no where near close. Those are the ones I run across the majority of the time. I want it every day. This hasn't changed since the day I met my wife 20 years ago and she has always been well aware of this. I would have settled and been fulfilled with twice a week. What I've explained here is what I would consider "close enough". What I don't get are the people like my wife. 2.5 years of sex every day when we first started dating. 2.5 years is a long term relationship. It is NOT new relationship energy. Then she shut if off. Had a full year of no sex at all, but at the same time, had sex 3 times a week during her pregnancy. Most of the dead bedroom years was twice a month. Now, people that go without sex for years are going to say, "Twice a month is great!". No. No it isn't. Not when the delta is so large. Once every 14-15 days is essentially nothing as as far as I am concerned.
> 
> Yes, exact matches are near impossible. I get that for sure. Compromise is necessary, but it has to be within reason. LD people KNOW they are getting involved with HD people where the gap is extremely large. They fool the HD person into believing that they are on par with them, only to shut it off once they get what they want.
> 
> My issue is with LD people that selfishly force the situation heavily in their favor. An HD person can obviously not do this. So yeah, its going to probably take me years to get over this kind of resentment with LD people. I find their actions to be abhorent and disgusting. LD people are nothing but leeches. They get all of their needs met and suck the life out of their HD spouses. (Please note, men and women do this. This is not a one sided problem). I want people to learn a lesson from me. Don't be like me. Don't build years of resentment. It isn't worth it. Lose friends if you have to because they think it is wrong to divorce over a lack of sex issue, but don't be me. The misery is close to unbearable - and the LD person is straight up all out of f*cks to give. It is impossible for LD people to care less about watching their HD spouse suffer. As much as I truly love my wife, I know it is going to take me years to forgive her. Hell, its probably going to take me years to forgive myself for allowing this to happen.


I've often wondered if LD and HD are permanent conditions or dynamic conditions changing over time. I find it hard to believe that a true LD person would act the roll of HD by having sex every day for 2.5 years with the goal of snaring someone into marriage then just cut them off. Of course there are some very devious people out there, but that is a really long game plan. Maybe it is more subconscious?

Your comment about 2.5 years of daily sex, followed by a year of nothing, then 3x a week during pregnancy makes me think it is all about hormones. Even her recent awakening. Could that be from a hormonal change? I know we all have freewill and we can make conscious choices that override biological urges. However, at the end of the day humans are bio-chemical machines with a large portion of our processes running on autopilot that is controlled by hormones.

This is why I started keeping a sex journal a couple years ago. My wife and I have always been very sexual. We dated about 2.5 years as well and it was pretty much sex all the time. That continued into marriage except when we were apart, which thankfully wasn't too much even though I was in the military. That level of frequency continued until we had kids about 8 years into our marriage. Kids made the frequency go down, but still quite good. Then as we were becoming empty nesters a few years ago I felt like our sex life was declining or at least stagnating when it should have been going up since there were fewer distractions at home. That's when I started the journal and I recognized and could quantify what was going on. At first my wife thought I was crazy, but I'm a big data guy and was able to clearly show her what was happening in our sex life. Turned out is was a combination of things going on, including some medical issues. It took over a year, but we got that taken care of, started really talking about things like what we want/need in our marriage without kids at home and all has been great. For me, her willingness to work on things drove me even deeper in love with her. It felt very good to know she was willing to work on herself for my sake. In large part that is due to who she is, but it was also due to me being very honest and candid with her about my feelings. Long story short, recognize there is an issue, shine light on it and take action.


----------



## Blondilocks

oldshirt said:


> Do we resent women for wanting a mate that is tall and handsome and is financially stable and successful?


Some guys do. According to that MGTOW thread and the infamous incels.


----------



## ccpowerslave

BigDaddyNY said:


> For me, her willingness to work on things drove me even deeper in love with her.


Absolutely. Every time my wife comes to me she is picking that she wants to be with me. It’s great.


----------



## LATERILUS79

BigDaddyNY said:


> I've often wondered if LD and HD are permanent conditions or dynamic conditions changing over time. I find it hard to believe that a true LD person would act the roll of HD by having sex every day for 2.5 years with the goal of snaring someone into marriage then just cut them off. Of course there are some very devious people out there, but that is a really long game plan. Maybe it is more subconscious?
> 
> Your comment about 2.5 years of daily sex, followed by a year of nothing, then 3x a week during pregnancy makes me think it is all about hormones. Even her recent awakening. Could that be from a hormonal change? I know we all have freewill and we can make conscious choices that override biological urges. However, at the end of the day humans are bio-chemical machines with a large portion of our processes running on autopilot that is controlled by hormones.
> 
> This is why I started keeping a sex journal a couple years ago. My wife and I have always been very sexual. We dated about 2.5 years as well and it was pretty much sex all the time. That continued into marriage except when we were apart, which thankfully wasn't too much even though I was in the military. That level of frequency continued until we had kids about 8 years into our marriage. Kids made the frequency go down, but still quite good. Then as we were becoming empty nesters a few years ago I felt like our sex life was declining or at least stagnating when it should have been going up since there were fewer distractions at home. That's when I started the journal and I recognized and could quantify what was going on. At first my wife thought I was crazy, but I'm a big data guy and was able to clearly show her what was happening in our sex life. Turned out is was a combination of things going on, including some medical issues. It took over a year, but we got that taken care of, started really talking about things like what we want/need in our marriage without kids at home and all has been great. For me, her willingness to work on things drove me even deeper in love with her. It felt very good to know she was willing to work on herself for my sake. In large part that is due to who she is, but it was also due to me being very honest and candid with her about my feelings. Long story short, recognize there is an issue, shine light on it and take action.


Correct, sir. 

Age, hormones, etc. I can accept all of these things. Like I mentioned in my other post, I can accept things change physiologically. We address those as they come up.

cutting off communication?

Gaslighting? (on purpose or subconsciously, I do not care)

No way. I do NOT accept these things. If I can't talk to my wife, who the hell can I talk to? My wife suffers from avoidant attachment/personality disorder. She has been a rockstar in IC this year and has kept up with it. I truly commend her efforts on this front.

These are the things we are currently working on. My trust in her has been shattered and she knows this. For 20 years, if she said something, I simply believed it without giving it much thought. I just assumed that my wife would never lie to me. Again, I'm not perfect and I've done too many stupid things to count them all. Ever since her complete turnaround, a ton of memories and emotions rushed into my head and for the first time ever, I went to the internet for help and ended up here. I've done the sex journal before and now I've been doing it again for this entire year. She had ways of getting me to not trust myself. We have 20 years worth of crap to get through. I am a very confrontational person whereas she is the exact opposite. It is going to take a lot of time, patience and love for us to get through this but to be honest, I'm confident that we both can do it. Like I said, I don't want to be resentful. I want us to work on communication and understanding of the 16 years of dead bedroom - then I want to put it behind us. The only difference now is that I am fully prepared to walk away if I have to - but that is NOT my goal. My goal is for us to raise our kids together and then grow old together.


----------



## jsmart

backhand said:


> Thanks for all of the replies. Just to be clear, I didn't post to analyze my wife's comment to me about my sexual energy. I am just curious to read how others might answer my original question with all of its caveats (e.g., the woman is physically able/the man knows the difference between lovemaking and selfish sex/the man has a choice among partners).
> 
> My own guess of 85% was based on trying to be objective about my life experience among other men (I am 58) and reading material that didn't have an agenda related to the subject.


You say that you didn’t want to discuss your wife’s comment about your sex drive vs men from her sexual past of over 30 years ago but that is not a normal comment fir your wife to make or even think about. 

Can I ask, how often are you having sex and what’s the level of enthusiasm? Are you getting once a month duty sex where she lays there like a star fish? Or are you the average of 2 to 3 times a week and are after even more?


----------



## LATERILUS79

Blondilocks said:


> Some guys do. According to that MGTOW thread and the infamous incels.


Blondi, this is unfortunate. There are baddies in every organization out there. MOST men in the red pill/manosphere are actually very good men. Put simply, they are men that are armed with better information on relationship dynamics between men and women. More specifically, its meant for men to find a QUALITY woman as a mate for life. What I wouldn't give to pass on this wealth of information to my 22 year old self instead of trying to figure out everything on my own. Of course, it sucks in a lot of low quality men who just want to hate women. These men suck ass - and quite frankly, I wouldn't refer to them as men to begin with. 

I would never resent women for their standards. Never. If they want someone tall, handsome and financially stable, then that is what they want. I can respect that. I am 5" taller than my wife, I am relatively handsome and I have met my earning potential after we graduated college. I have taken care of my wife quite well, all things considered - although she has made me very proud with her determination and effort in the work place. She just passed me up for the first time in 20 years back in November with her earnings. It took her a long time to move up, but move up she did.

On the flip side, I have my standards. I wanted a curvy woman with nice hips, small waist, large natural breasts and a pretty face. That's what I got, so I'm pleased. A strong personality could have gotten me to look elsewhere for sure, but if that strong personality was on the body type that really gets my attention? Well then that is what I'm gonna go for.

Neither of these desires are shallow. They are standards.


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## ccpowerslave

Agreed you want what you want. I was brushing my teeth watching my wife take a shower this morning and I almost had to jump in there with her and probably should have. You’re supposed to marry someone you’re attracted to. Folks who pick someone and then want to change them, I don’t get it.

I used to workout a bit with a lady who is tough as nails with a great personality but had a bit of weight to lose. She went out on a date with this one guy who was like well call me if you lose 30lbs at the end of their date.

I’m like holy ****. That is just mean. I told her she should have told him to stick it where the sun don’t shine. There’s no need to be an ass about it but it’s fine to have standards or a type you like.


----------



## LATERILUS79

ccpowerslave said:


> Agreed you want what you want. I was brushing my teeth watching my wife take a shower this morning and I almost had to jump in there with her and probably should have. You’re supposed to marry someone you’re attracted to. Folks who pick someone and then want to change them, I don’t get it.
> 
> I used to workout a bit with a lady who is tough as nails with a great personality but had a bit of weight to lose. She went out on a date with this one guy who was like well call me if you lose 30lbs at the end of their date.
> 
> I’m like holy ****. That is just mean. I told her she should have told him to stick it where the sun don’t shine. There’s no need to be an ass about it but it’s fine to have standards or a type you like.


There is definitely a difference between having a standard and being an asshole. Telling a woman she needs to lose weight is pretty low brow. I’d say the same thing if a woman said, “yeah, you are great, but call me back when you make more money.”


----------



## ccpowerslave

LATERILUS79 said:


> There is definitely a difference between having a standard and being an asshole. Telling a woman she needs to lose weight is pretty low brow. I’d say the same thing if a woman said, “yeah, you are great, but call me back when you make more money.”


Yep. Fortunately she found a guy and has been married for a few years now. So it ended well!


----------



## In Absentia

LATERILUS79 said:


> These are the things we are currently working on. My trust in her has been shattered and she knows this. For 20 years, if she said something, I simply believed it without giving it much thought. I just assumed that my wife would never lie to me. Again, I'm not perfect and I've done too many stupid things to count them all. Ever since her complete turnaround, a ton of memories and emotions rushed into my head and for the first time ever, I went to the internet for help and ended up here. I've done the sex journal before and now I've been doing it again for this entire year. She had ways of getting me to not trust myself. We have 20 years worth of crap to get through. I am a very confrontational person whereas she is the exact opposite. It is going to take a lot of time, patience and love for us to get through this but to be honest, I'm confident that we both can do it. Like I said, I don't want to be resentful. I want us to work on communication and understanding of the 16 years of dead bedroom - then I want to put it behind us. The only difference now is that I am fully prepared to walk away if I have to - but that is NOT my goal. My goal is for us to raise our kids together and then grow old together.


Very brave. I don't think I would get back with my wife, if she asked me to. Too much resentment and anger, for the most painful period of my life (last 15 years). I thought the pain of my childhood would be impossible to beat. I was wrong.


----------



## 351147

For me sex has always been important. I feel that it brings my wife and I closer. And when I don't have sex I become irritable and difficult. My wife knows when it's been a while just by my mood. 

I know this sounds corny but I need sex, it helps reduce headaches, makes me happy and let's me focus. Maybe it's just me or something other men feel, but when I don't have sex, I'm not a nice person.


----------



## ccpowerslave

NJHubby47 said:


> I know this sounds corny but I need sex, it helps reduce headaches, makes me happy and let's me focus. Maybe it's just me or something other men feel, but when I don't have sex, I'm not a nice person.


I think it definitely builds up. When I thought my wife was going to stay up working last night and she started talking about having a headache I was thinking, “Here we go again…” but nope she came to bed anyway and banged the snot out of me. Much clearer headed today and not thinking about sex every 30 seconds.


----------



## LATERILUS79

In Absentia said:


> Very brave. I don't think I would get back with my wife, if she asked me to. Too much resentment and anger, for the most painful period of my life (last 15 years). I thought the pain of my childhood would be impossible to beat. I was wrong.


I understand where you are coming from and I get it. I've been extremely thankful I found this place. It has been very supportive and I can't thank the people that have helped me here enough. I'm a prideful man and I don't exactly like to share. I've found the people here that I trust the most and they've been helping me through this. My wife is not a monster. I fell in love with her for a reason. The 16 year dead bedroom was not all bad. It was a slow, behind the scenes, misery. Like cc said, there are many things that can be done to distract you from the underlying problem. Outside of that problem, my wife is a wonderful person. We had many great times. Sex was horribly low on frequency, but it was very good quality (now it is friggin top tier quality. A quality level I didn't know existed!). I know she loved me, but she just didn't show it enough or make me feel it enough. We had our two wonderful children during that time. I fell in love with her again around that time. I am one of those crazy exceptions to the rule. Children DID bring us closer together - but that was an odd one. We both so desperately wanted to have children that we became a "team" again to get this done. We were in love again. 5 years down the road after our twins, the misery started to creep in again. That is when I decided it was time to detach and we could co-parent. Then her reawakening this past December happened. I am now determined to make this this happen the way it was always supposed to happen between us. If we fail, then we fail. I can look in the mirror and say I did everything I could. I left it all out on the field and I can move on if need be.


----------



## 351147

ccpowerslave said:


> I think it definitely builds up. When I thought my wife was going to stay up working last night and she started talking about having a headache I was thinking, “Here we go again…” but nope she came to bed anyway and banged the snot out of me. Much clearer headed today and not thinking about sex every 30 seconds.


When my wife is running late I know we're going to miss our window to get in to bed. I stat getting very aggravated. Then by the time she get's home I'm just pissed off.

But then there was the other day, we're both home, kids are out playing and she tells me to meet her upstairs for a quick bang!


----------



## LATERILUS79

NJHubby47 said:


> For me sex has always been important. I feel that it brings my wife and I closer. And when I don't have sex I become irritable and difficult. My wife knows when it's been a while just by my mood.
> 
> I know this sounds corny but I need sex, it helps reduce headaches, makes me happy and let's me focus. Maybe it's just me or something other men feel, but when I don't have sex, I'm not a nice person.


ahem..... the condition you are describing, NJHubby47, is referred to as "Post-nut clarity". 😁


----------



## backhand

jsmart said:


> You say that you didn’t want to discuss your wife’s comment about your sex drive vs men from her sexual past of over 30 years ago but that is not a normal comment fir your wife to make or even think about.
> 
> Can I ask, how often are you having sex and what’s the level of enthusiasm? Are you getting once a month duty sex where she lays there like a star fish? Or are you the average of 2 to 3 times a week and are after even more?


Thanks for asking...I said I didn't post to analyze my wife's comment to me only because I was more curious about getting people's reactions to the 85% guess I had just given my wife an hour before.

I'll quickly share the basics of my situation...it's passable for me at this stage of our lives (considering the implications of our kids and so forth). I am 58 and my wife is 57 (attractive and fit for her age)...of course, she went through a lot of important changes in recent years. We have sex or she "takes care of me" in various ways about once a week but that can easily stretch to two weeks or so. I can tell the level of enthusiasm doesn't come close to matching her personality (see below)...it's a duty thing on her part...other than for the important benefits to her of companionship (e.g., going to restaurants and attending events, etc.), I think that she would be fine with never having to get naked with another man ever again if I were to die today. My wife doesn't really like to be touched anymore...she still enjoys a back rub, but that's it. Definitely doesn't like her breasts touched or even her still beautiful legs touched. 

In brief, her comment about other guys she dated years ago having less sexual energy than me is her way of saying that I am attributing too much into the possible motives of her many male friends when I calmly tell her that she needs to be aware of not doing anything that could give some of them the wrong idea (she is incredibly outgoing and friendly). I have never told her to temper her highly extroverted personality, but she doesn't like it when I tell her that even guys ages 55-65 could get the wrong idea about her unbridled enthusiasm, so she is implying that I'm different from her experiences with guys many years ago.


----------



## Blondilocks

LATERILUS79 said:


> These men suck ass - and quite frankly,* I wouldn't refer to them as men to begin with.
> *



Me, neither. Which is why I referred to them as guys.


----------



## jsmart

backhand said:


> Thanks for asking...I said I didn't post to analyze my wife's comment to me only because I was more curious about getting people's reactions to the 85% guess I had just given my wife an hour before.
> 
> I'll quickly share the basics of my situation...it's passable for me at this stage of our lives (considering the implications of our kids and so forth). I am 58 and my wife is 57 (attractive and fit for her age)...of course, she went through a lot of important changes in recent years. We have sex or she "takes care of me" in various ways about once a week but that can easily stretch to two weeks or so. I can tell the level of enthusiasm doesn't come close to matching her personality (see below)...it's a duty thing on her part...other than for the important benefits to her of companionship (e.g., going to restaurants and attending events, etc.), I think that she would be fine with never having to get naked with another man ever again if I were to die today. My wife doesn't really like to be touched anymore...she still enjoys a back rub, but that's it. Definitely doesn't like her breasts touched or even her still beautiful legs touched.
> 
> In brief, her comment about other guys she dated years ago having less sexual energy than me is her way of saying that I am attributing too much into the possible motives of her many male friends when I calmly tell her that she needs to be aware of not doing anything that could give some of them the wrong idea (she is incredibly outgoing and friendly). I have never told her to temper her highly extroverted personality, but she doesn't like it when I tell her that even guys ages 55-65 could get the wrong idea about her unbridled enthusiasm, so she is implying that I'm different from her experiences with guys many years ago.


And there it is. Do you really think your flirty/vivacious fit wife doesn’t want to be touched in a sexual way? Of course guys are going to respond to her energy, which is why she does it. An extroverted woman knows her sexual power. For some reason, she rather expend this emotional energy on her male “friends” than on her husband. 

Talking to your wife will not get her to want to have more sex with you. You need to work on upping your sex rank. Start a vigorous workout regimen, improve your wardrobe, and make sure your haircut, beard, and hygiene are all on point. Liking what you see in the mirror will help your self confidence, which is supremely important to attract women. Now get yourself out doing activities that you like. When your wife sees you looking good and going out doing your own thing, she will either up her game to sex you up to keep you or she won’t. If she doesn’t, you will be in a much better place to decide if this is the life you want.


----------



## backhand

jsmart said:


> And there it is. Do you really think your flirty/vivacious fit wife doesn’t want to be touched in a sexual way? Of course guys are going to respond to her energy, which is why she does it. An extroverted woman knows her sexual power. For some reason, she rather expend this emotional energy on her male “friends” than on her husband.
> 
> Talking to your wife will not get her to want to have more sex with you. You need to work on upping your sex rank. Start a vigorous workout regimen, improve your wardrobe, and make sure your haircut, beard, and hygiene are all on point. Liking what you see in the mirror will help your self confidence, which is supremely important to attract women. Now get yourself out doing activities that you like. When your wife sees you looking good and going out doing your own thing, she will either up her game to sex you up to keep you or she won’t. If she doesn’t, you will be in a much better place to decide if this is the life you want.


I understand why you wrote everything you did in your first paragraph. I would start with the same assumptions you did without knowing the facts specific to my situation. I'm happy to admit that I might be wrong about anything in life, including this...that said, I'm as certain as a man can be that my vivacious (very post-menopausal) 57-year old wife doesn't want to be touched in a sexual way...unless I die tomorrow...then she will want companionship and will eventually pair with one of her many male admirers. Yes, despite being, as she laughingly says, "dried up," (even with a creme, etc.) she will probably put forth a much better sexual effort than she does with me now for a while because it will be new and will want to solidify the relationship...and then eventually revert to a form of what I have now. I know my wife...we have been married 35 years. I don't put her on a pedestal and I am not in denial. As a true extrovert, she gets her energy from being around people...I don't believe it has anything to do with knowing "her sexual power" around men. 

I have been maintaining and upping my game my whole life (okay, I'll say it: I have always been very fit, look good in every respect for a 58-year old, and have been successful in business). I am doing new activities because it's what's good for me. I think my wife is one of those women who won't "up her game to sex me up." Over the years, we have talked about it, things get a little better, and then she reverts.

We really enjoy each other's company after all of these years. We do something together nearly every evening and always have a good time. Again, all things considered, my life is definitely better with her than without her despite our unequal interest in all things sex-related (I see parallels between her and her mother in her 50s-60s). I know it would cost my wife little if she cared about my needs as much as she cares about her other interests, but I definitely don't want her, I'm writing hurriedly...to fake something? (lol, she's not good at that), charity? guilt reaction?


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Boiling it down to high drive or low drive is just inaccurate in most circumstances. Desires change with circumstances. A high drive woman who would like to have a lot of sex with a certain man can go from 60 to 0 once she learns something about her partner that is a deal breaker. 

Also, it seems to me that no matter how many people explain that they're exhausted (or depressed or in pain or going through some changes and need time to think) and not in the mood, people either choose not to believe that or they simply don't care about the other person enough to accept it. That's out of whack. In fact, that may be the biggest commonality I see on this forum on the subject. 
"Here's my reason I don't feel like sex."
"I don't care if you want to or not because I want to, and that's all that counts." 

And then that quickly spirals downhill because now you have the woman realizing the man's self-serving lack of any other substantial feelings other than his love for sex for the first time, which further alienates her because she can't love someone who she now realizes doesn't really care what she wants or how she feels at any given time because his penis is more important to him than anything else. 

And poof, you have the spiralling death knell of sex and beginning of the end of a civilized marriage, because love has left. 

And then it's on to TAM talking about your LD partner.


----------



## jsmart

backhand said:


> I understand why you wrote everything you did in your first paragraph. I would start with the same assumptions you did without knowing the facts specific to my situation. I'm happy to admit that I might be wrong about anything in life, including this...that said, I'm as certain as a man can be that my vivacious (very post-menopausal) 57-year old wife doesn't want to be touched in a sexual way...unless I die tomorrow...then she will want companionship and will eventually pair with one of her many male admirers. Yes, despite being, as she laughingly says, "dried up," (even with a creme, etc.) she will probably put forth a much better sexual effort than she does with me now for a while because it will be new and will want to solidify the relationship...and then eventually revert to a form of what I have now. I know my wife...we have been married 35 years. I don't put her on a pedestal and I am not in denial. As a true extrovert, she gets her energy from being around people...I don't believe it has anything to do with knowing "her sexual power" around men.
> 
> I have been maintaining and upping my game my whole life (okay, I'll say it: I have always been very fit, look good in every respect for a 58-year old, and have been successful in business). I am doing new activities because it's what's good for me. I think my wife is one of those women who won't "up her game to sex me up." Over the years, we have talked about it, things get a little better, and then she reverts.
> 
> We really enjoy each other's company after all of these years. We do something together nearly every evening and always have a good time. Again, all things considered, my life is definitely better with her than without her despite our unequal interest in all things sex-related (I see parallels between her and her mother in her 50s-60s). I know it would cost my wife little if she cared about my needs as much as she cares about her other interests, but I definitely don't want her, I'm writing hurriedly...to fake something? (lol, she's not good at that), charity? guilt reaction?


I can understand how you feel that the good outweighs the bad. I’m just 2 years younger than you and have been with my wife 35 years, married 32 and have raised 4 kids so I fully understand that despite the low sex, you still cherish what you have. 

Also, I just advise that you make sure some other guy isn’t getting her sexual best. I advise to trust but verify. Lastly, just because she’s an extrovert, doesn’t mean she has to be around other men. You bring a lot to the table too, so there’s nothing wrong with expecting a wife who respects her man enough to not be a siren around other men.


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## Diana7

Rus47 said:


> And *elderly* would be?


Over 70 say?


----------



## Diana7

Longtime Hubby said:


> Exactly what my wife said years ago. "The glue of a marriage"


That's true to a point but they must be more that holds a marriage together or if something awful happened such as an accident that meant there could be no more sex, or a serious illness, the marriage could not survive. 
My husband's first wife was pretty ill for some time and they didn't have sex for 9 months. It's part of the for better or for worse in marriage.


----------



## Rus47

Diana7 said:


> Over 70 say?



Everyone gets a turn (if they live long enough), and no one ever thinks they are "old". lol. 

Wife n I are both way above your "elderly". We run 10 miles a week, out hike, out walk all of kids and grandchildren. And our love life is as active as it ever was, and that is plenty active. You hit a nerve (but believe you knew that already) lol.


----------



## Diana7

Rus47 said:


> Everyone gets a turn (if they live long enough), and no one ever thinks they are "old". lol.
> 
> Wife n I are both way above your "elderly". We run 10 miles a week, out hike, out walk all of kids and grandchildren. And our love life is as active as it ever was, and that is plenty active. You hit a nerve (but believe you knew that already) lol.


No I didn't know I hit a nerve and I certainly didn't mean to, but it's pretty common for sex to get less frequent as people age. Especially as age related medical issues take hold.


----------



## LATERILUS79

DownByTheRiver said:


> Boiling it down to high drive or low drive is just inaccurate in most circumstances. Desires change with circumstances. A high drive woman who would like to have a lot of sex with a certain man can go from 60 to 0 once she learns something about her partner that is a deal breaker.
> 
> Also, it seems to me that no matter how many people explain that they're exhausted (or depressed or in pain or going through some changes and need time to think) and not in the mood, people either choose not to believe that or they simply don't care about the other person enough to accept it. That's out of whack. In fact, that may be the biggest commonality I see on this forum on the subject.
> "Here's my reason I don't feel like sex."
> "I don't care if you want to or not because I want to, and that's all that counts."
> 
> And then that quickly spirals downhill because now you have the woman realizing the man's self-serving lack of any other substantial feelings other than his love for sex for the first time, which further alienates her because she can't love someone who she now realizes doesn't really care what she wants or how she feels at any given time because his penis is more important to him than anything else.
> 
> And poof, you have the spiralling death knell of sex and beginning of the end of a civilized marriage, because love has left.
> 
> And then it's on to TAM talking about your LD partner.


Downbytheriver,

I enjoy reading your posts. I find them insightful. I think you have some excellent points here. I think you are absolutely right how it can become a downward spiral. I am also well aware of the pressure the LD spouse will feel (please remember, this happens to both men and women. If you get a chance, read deadbedrooms on Reddit. It was eye opening when seeing how many women deal with this too).

since your example has the man as the HD and woman as the LD, I will stick with that.

first, all the reasons you mentioned are VALID reasons for not being in the mood. I think you are absolutely correct. After many years, they become excuses. It is impossible for me to see them any other way. If there is no effort to address the valid reasons, then they are excuses. The Santa sized bag my wife could draw from for reasons not to have sex was astronomical. It was never ending. It had to be exhausting coming up with all of those reasons.

secondly, if the marriage is traditional, then the man is providing A LOT to the wife. Expectation of the wife showing love in return for all the man does is reasonable. Forcing it (horrific) or attempts to manipulate the wife into feeling guilty is not acceptable. I just want to make that absolutely clear when I say it is ok for a husband to expect his wife to show her appreciation and love in return.

the argument can be made that “he needs to show me love in the ways of x,y,z first.”

no. Not acceptable. Here’s my reason why: if two people are married, they agreed to only have sex with each other and that’s it. Emotional support can be had by friends. If the wife doesn’t want to have sex - fine. Divorce and get what you need from a friend. Don’t put the husband into a loyalty prison.
I’m sure you’ve heard the old expression 

“women give sex for love, men give love for sex”. What you are explaining is a one-sided relationship. Man has given his commitment and love. Woman accepts it and doesn’t give sex back. Again, this is unacceptable and they should part ways because we all know the woman in this situation would DEFINITELY not want the husband to cheat, correct? Certainly we can agree on that? I know I wouldn’t accept a husband to cheat in this situation. That’s horrible.

so now we are right back to the taboo situation of an HD person being the “bad guy” for parting ways with an LD person over sex. Yep. The HD person must accept the reasons/excuses but also must be loyal to the LD person that gives nothing in return.

As taboo as it may be, I no longer care. I will never return to a dead bedroom. I can look myself in the mirror and know for a fact that I’m a good husband. I’ve been loyal to a fault. I’ve provided in the best way I could. If I ever get cut off again, I’m out the door and I do not care who would think that I’m the bad guy. It’s not worth the effort to fight or complain about.

and I agree with you on the “complain to TAM” aspect. It’s not worth it. I no longer care about the reasons. If my wife turns back to LD and she does not care to put in a good effort to fix it (this all has to be within reason of course. There are reasons why sex can’t happen anymore, I’m not an idiot) then I will give my wife wants she wants. I’ll leave. She’ll never need to hear me ask for sex ever again….. but at the same time, she also loses all the husband things that you did not mention in your post.


----------



## Rus47

Diana7 said:


> No I didn't know I hit a nerve and I certainly didn't mean to, but it's pretty common for sex to get less frequent as people age. Especially as age related medical issues take hold.


Well, so far my elderly wife and her elderly husband (me) have not had any issues with sex becoming less frequent. In fact since we retired, and just the two of us, there is more time whenever we want to, and we want to a lot lol. And whether it is "pretty common" I wouldn't know, all of our friends ( most older than we are ) if what the women tell my wife is half true, they are no different than we are.

The only medical issue we have had lately was Covid put a damper on us for about 2 weeks, but that isn't really age related. When age related medical issues take hold, I am sure we will be up to the challenge and figure out a way around the difficulties.

You are aware that even nursing homes have a lot more going on between the men and women than their offspring even suspect. They might be elderly, but they aren't dead yet.

Sorry for t/j, end...


----------



## 346745

AGoodFlogging said:


> My view is that marriage is like a chair. For most couples sex is one of the legs (I.e. it isn't the only thing keeping your arse off the floor but it is one of the things). Saw off a leg and see how well the chair works.
> [/QUOTE





Diana7 said:


> That's true to a point but they must be more that holds a marriage together or if something awful happened such as an accident that meant there could be no more sex, or a serious illness, the marriage could not survive.
> My husband's first wife was pretty ill for some time and they didn't have sex for 9 months. It's part of the for better or for worse in marriage.


Good points, Diana. There are many components to a successful marriage.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

LATERILUS79 said:


> Downbytheriver,
> 
> I enjoy reading your posts. I find them insightful. I think you have some excellent points here. I think you are absolutely right how it can become a downward spiral. I am also well aware of the pressure the LD spouse will feel (please remember, this happens to both men and women. If you get a chance, read deadbedrooms on Reddit. It was eye opening when seeing how many women deal with this too).
> 
> since your example has the man as the HD and woman as the LD, I will stick with that.
> 
> first, all the reasons you mentioned are VALID reasons for not being in the mood. I think you are absolutely correct. After many years, they become excuses. It is impossible for me to see them any other way. If there is no effort to address the valid reasons, then they are excuses. The Santa sized bag my wife could draw from for reasons not to have sex was astronomical. It was never ending. It had to be exhausting coming up with all of those reasons.
> 
> secondly, if the marriage is traditional, then the man is providing A LOT to the wife. Expectation of the wife showing love in return for all the man does is reasonable. Forcing it (horrific) or attempts to manipulate the wife into feeling guilty is not acceptable. I just want to make that absolutely clear when I say it is ok for a husband to expect his wife to show her appreciation and love in return.
> 
> the argument can be made that “he needs to show me love in the ways of x,y,z first.”
> 
> no. Not acceptable. Here’s my reason why: if two people are married, they agreed to only have sex with each other and that’s it. Emotional support can be had by friends. If the wife doesn’t want to have sex - fine. Divorce and get what you need from a friend. Don’t put the husband into a loyalty prison.
> I’m sure you’ve heard the old expression
> 
> “women give sex for love, men give love for sex”. What you are explaining is a one-sided relationship. Man has given his commitment and love. Woman accepts it and doesn’t give sex back. Again, this is unacceptable and they should part ways because we all know the woman in this situation would DEFINITELY not want the husband to cheat, correct? Certainly we can agree on that? I know I wouldn’t accept a husband to cheat in this situation. That’s horrible.
> 
> so now we are right back to the taboo situation of an HD person being the “bad guy” for parting ways with an LD person over sex. Yep. The HD person must accept the reasons/excuses but also must be loyal to the LD person that gives nothing in return.
> 
> As taboo as it may be, I no longer care. I will never return to a dead bedroom. I can look myself in the mirror and know for a fact that I’m a good husband. I’ve been loyal to a fault. I’ve provided in the best way I could. If I ever get cut off again, I’m out the door and I do not care who would think that I’m the bad guy. It’s not worth the effort to fight or complain about.
> 
> and I agree with you on the “complain to TAM” aspect. It’s not worth it. I no longer care about the reasons. If my wife turns back to LD and she does not care to put in a good effort to fix it (this all has to be within reason of course. There are reasons why sex can’t happen anymore, I’m not an idiot) then I will give my wife wants she wants. I’ll leave. She’ll never need to hear me ask for sex ever again….. but at the same time, she also loses all the husband things that you did not mention in your post.


It's not a prostitute/john arrangement. Things change. When she married, she wanted to have sex. Now for any number of reasons, she isn't that interested. She never agreed to have sex in exchange for goods or favors, and most women wouldn't, although there are some out there who will if you're straight up about it and that's all you care about. That is not what women are thinking when they get married unless they are a golddigger on the spectrum of sex worker. So you can't expect one to suddenly become a prostitute. But yes, you certainly can divorce if that's where whatever leads you leads you. 

These are all things I've just noticed over and over again on this particular forum, the pattern. 

I know it can happen in the reverse too. I had originally put that in the post but it made it too hard to read and since it's nearly always the man who complains about the most and prioritizes it the most, I used that. I fully realize there are two or three women on here who also had the "no sex" problem and felt their men were selfish.


----------



## LATERILUS79

DownByTheRiver said:


> It's not a prostitute/john arrangement. Things change. When she married, she wanted to have sex. Now for any number of reasons, she isn't that interested. She never agreed to have sex in exchange for goods or favors, and most women wouldn't, although there are some out there who will if you're straight up about it and that's all you care about. That is not what women are thinking when they get married unless they are a golddigger on the spectrum of sex worker. So you can't expect one to suddenly become a prostitute. But yes, you certainly can divorce if that's where whatever leads you leads you.
> 
> These are all things I've just noticed over and over again on this particular forum, the pattern.
> 
> I know it can happen in the reverse too. I had originally put that in the post but it made it too hard to read and since it's nearly always the man who complains about the most and prioritizes it the most, I used that. I fully realize there are two or three women on here who also had the "no sex" problem and felt their men were selfish.


Understandable.

If it is ok in your mind that a woman can withhold sex in a marriage, not want the husband to get sex outside of the marriage and still receive all the other benefits the husband can provide, then that is the way you feel. I find that particularly extremely selfish. I think the LD person should bring up divorce if this is the way they feel. I find this treatment of the HD spouse absolutely abhorent.... but as of now, society is on the side of the LD partner. So be it. 

If you want to look at it as a prostitute/john setup - I get it. At the same time, I will then look at any LD person that receives all the benefits of marriage without the sex as laziness and gold digging. Same thing, agreed? Or, we can collectively say that in order for both people to be truly fulfilled in a marriage, both people need to keep giving of themself to the other. Personally, that is the way I see things. 

I personally will not allow a setup in my house where one person gives and the other does nothing towards the relationship. We all have our love languages and it's necessary for those to be met in order to have a relationship, otherwise, why bother? Last time I checked, a scenario where the woman gets all the emotional support and love she could ever want without having to have sex is called the friend zone. Is that acceptable to you? Friend zoning a husband? Why have him as a husband then? Wouldn't it be easier to have just friends? These are questions I've never seen answered by anyone that advocates for the LD partner.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

LATERILUS79 said:


> Understandable.
> 
> If it is ok in your mind that a woman can withhold sex in a marriage, not want the husband to get sex outside of the marriage and still receive all the other benefits the husband can provide, then that is the way you feel. I find that particularly extremely selfish. I think the LD person should bring up divorce if this is the way they feel. I find this treatment of the HD spouse absolutely abhorent.... but as of now, society is on the side of the LD partner. So be it.
> 
> If you want to look at it as a prostitute/john setup - I get it. At the same time, I will then look at any LD person that receives all the benefits of marriage without the sex as laziness and gold digging. Same thing, agreed? Or, we can collectively say that in order for both people to be truly fulfilled in a marriage, both people need to keep giving of themself to the other. Personally, that is the way I see things.
> 
> I personally will not allow a setup in my house where one person gives and the other does nothing towards the relationship. We all have our love languages and it's necessary for those to be met in order to have a relationship, otherwise, why bother? Last time I checked, a scenario where the woman gets all the emotional support and love she could ever want without having to have sex is called the friend zone. Is that acceptable to you? Friend zoning a husband? Why have him as a husband then? Wouldn't it be easier to have just friends? These are questions I've never seen answered by anyone that advocates for the LD partner.


No it's not the same thing. It's not as if that person has never done anything for the family such as bear children, do her share of housework and cook and probably work on top of all that. Sex should not be the only thing that counts as being of value in a marriage especially when you have a family. 

And I don't know why you're calling her the LD because she's not inherently LD. And also just wanting sex at the moment more than your partner does does not make the man HD. They both wanted sex when they married and then circumstances changed that. That doesn't necessarily mean she was ever low drive, just that she doesn't have the feels for her partner that way anymore. 

And again I don't think that should count for everything but if divorce is the inevitable result, then so be it. But most women would not think that that alone should count for more than about 10% of the marriage value and in my opinion they would be right. So there's no reason why they should feel obligated to offer divorce. She also should not usually get all the blame for destroying the marriage because of no sex when, with the exception of reasonless cheating, it is usually something the man did or something she found out about him that made her lose her desire for him. So the onus is not all on her unless she's just a big cheater.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Lateralus, just wanted to say I do appreciate your intention to be diplomatic. Sorry I'm only being blunt back at you. Just tired and doing more than one thing at once.


----------



## ccpowerslave

DownByTheRiver said:


> She also should not usually get all the blame for destroying the marriage because of no sex when, with the exception of reasonless cheating, it is usually something the man did or something she found out about him that made her lose her desire for him.


I acknowledged I made many mistakes when I had the talk with my wife and I told her I totally understand if you aren’t interested in me sexually anymore and that’s fine. But I don’t want a wife that isn’t interested in me sexually. So if you want to try then we can try but otherwise that’s basically it.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

ccpowerslave said:


> I acknowledged I made many mistakes when I had the talk with my wife and I told her I totally understand if you aren’t interested in me sexually anymore and that’s fine. But I don’t want a wife that isn’t interested in me sexually. So if you want to try then we can try but otherwise that’s basically it.


Talk about it is about all you can do. I'm glad it worked out for you. 

I was never with someone long enough to get tired of them sexually. But I know I would because I was an excitement junkie. My theme songs were Shock Me and Some Weird Sin. And like Iggy, I was often the chairman of the bored.


----------



## LATERILUS79

DownByTheRiver said:


> No it's not the same thing. It's not as if that person has never done anything for the family such as bear children, do her share of housework and cook and probably work on top of all that. Sex should not be the only thing that counts as being of value in a marriage especially when you have a family.
> 
> And I don't know why you're calling her the LD because she's not inherently LD. And also just wanting sex at the moment more than your partner does does not make the man HD. They both wanted sex when they married and then circumstances changed that. That doesn't necessarily mean she was ever low drive, just that she doesn't have the feels for her partner that way anymore.
> 
> And again I don't think that should count for everything but if divorce is the inevitable result, then so be it. But most women would not think that that alone should count for more than about 10% of the marriage value and in my opinion they would be right. So there's no reason why they should feel obligated to offer divorce. She also should not usually get all the blame for destroying the marriage because of no sex when, with the exception of reasonless cheating, it is usually something the man did or something she found out about him that made her lose her desire for him. So the onus is not all on her unless she's just a big cheater.


I'm afraid I'm unable to understand your points, try as I might.

Cheating is the most horrible thing someone can do to their spouse.


I've come to realize that setting up a dead bedroom is a close second. It is information I wish I had 20 years ago. I simply don't understand your reasoning as to why this is ok. No matter your reasoning, the end answer to everything you say(to me) is either divorce or the HD partner can open up the marriage so they can get the #1 attribute a marriage offers.

I've mentioned before that I am disgusted with myself for allowing it to happen for the length of time that I did. Doesn't matter what anyone says to me here. No one is harder on me than what I do to myself on a daily basis. But that doesn't mean my wife didn't play her part. She most certainly did and she watched her husband suffer. We are working through this. We love each other very much and I think we will come out the other side better.

I don't know if most women consider sex to only be 10٪ of the marriage. Maybe. I wouldn't doubt if my wife thought that at one point. I can tell you this much, she doesn't any more and she can see in my eyes just how freaking serious this is. I don't think she is going to waste this opportunity to save our marriage and build it stronger.

If it's true that most women think sex is only 10% (and I don't believe that), then a lot of them are going to be in for a rude awakening. Men have outlets today to learn about relationships that they didn't have when I was growing up. Young men today are already not marrying the way they used to. They are sitting on thr sidelines and I will teach my son the same thing until he finds himself a high quality woman. Our modern society has gone nuts and taught women that they are special for simply existing. This is absurd. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. You earn your respect just like everyone else has to. I know I'll be teaching this to my daughter for sure.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

I think it's sometimes when they find out that rude awakening that they lose respect and desire. I'm sure newlyweds place more importance on sex but by the time a woman has a child to look after, everything pales in comparison.

Even the one extremely high drive woman I knew very well, who was high drive by virtue of her being bipolar and made her kind of out of control, I don't think she would say that was the biggest percentage of value in her marriage. She and her husband had interests in common and also parts of their career in common, both being journalists. She was always happy to see him come home and the first thing they did was sit down enthusiastically in the living room and discuss what was going on that day, world affairs. Being journalists they were both interested in politics and pretty knowledgeable.

She did have the occasional sex and attention crisis though when he wasn't paying enough attention to her because her other diagnosis was narcissism and she really lived for attention. When she went out of town on business, she always packed her vibrator until 911 and the more thorough searching of luggage which she found embarrassing but I'll bet she found her way around it. So she wasn't solely reliant on him sexually.

I mean, there are ways to have sex other than pushing the envelope with your spouse who isn't on the same schedule as you.


----------



## In Absentia

LATERILUS79 said:


> I understand where you are coming from and I get it. I've been extremely thankful I found this place. It has been very supportive and I can't thank the people that have helped me here enough. I'm a prideful man and I don't exactly like to share. I've found the people here that I trust the most and they've been helping me through this. My wife is not a monster. I fell in love with her for a reason. The 16 year dead bedroom was not all bad. It was a slow, behind the scenes, misery. Like cc said, there are many things that can be done to distract you from the underlying problem. Outside of that problem, my wife is a wonderful person. We had many great times. Sex was horribly low on frequency, but it was very good quality (now it is friggin top tier quality. A quality level I didn't know existed!). I know she loved me, but she just didn't show it enough or make me feel it enough. We had our two wonderful children during that time. I fell in love with her again around that time. I am one of those crazy exceptions to the rule. Children DID bring us closer together - but that was an odd one. We both so desperately wanted to have children that we became a "team" again to get this done. We were in love again. 5 years down the road after our twins, the misery started to creep in again. That is when I decided it was time to detach and we could co-parent. Then her reawakening this past December happened. I am now determined to make this this happen the way it was always supposed to happen between us. If we fail, then we fail. I can look in the mirror and say I did everything I could. I left it all out on the field and I can move on if need be.


I would say the first 20 years were fine... but then my wife got mental issues and it went downhill. She didn't communicate the severity to me, so I got it completely wrong. But I was surprised when she stopped our sex life. In hindsight, I should have known, but I was judging her on the basis of my own perspective, so I didn't get it. I tend to forgive, but sometimes the baggage is too big. I wish you well!


----------



## Hiner112

If I told my significant other that I was making supper and then didn't and didn't let them get takeout I should expect them to be hangry that night. Am I responsible for their attitude or are they? It's kind of a combination, I think. It's the same way with sex. If you're not making any effort to satisfy them sexually, you should expect some frustration. How they express and handle their frustration is up to them.



Diana7 said:


> Over 70 say?


I think my granddad started admitting to being old when he turned 90. I don't think he did before then.


----------



## In Absentia

My FIL was still having sex at 80... I know because one day confessed to us to be a "sex addict". Her partner also confirmed this...


----------



## Rus47

LATERILUS79 said:


> Understandable.
> 
> If it is ok in your mind that a woman can withhold sex in a marriage, not want the husband to get sex outside of the marriage and still receive all the other benefits the husband can provide, then that is the way you feel. I find that particularly extremely selfish. I think the LD person should bring up divorce if this is the way they feel. *I find this treatment of the HD spouse absolutely abhorent*.... but as of now, society is on the side of the LD partner. So be it.
> 
> *If you want to look at it as a prostitute/john setup - I get it. At the same time, I will then look at any LD person that receives all the benefits of marriage without the sex as laziness and gold digging. Same thing, agreed?* Or, we can collectively say that in order for both people to be truly fulfilled in a marriage, both people need to keep giving of themself to the other. Personally, that is the way I see things.
> 
> I personally will not allow a setup in my house where one person gives and the other does nothing towards the relationship. We all have our love languages and it's necessary for those to be met in order to have a relationship, otherwise, why bother?* Last time I checked, a scenario where the woman gets all the emotional support and love she could ever want without having to have sex is called the friend zone*. Is that acceptable to you? *Friend zoning a husband? Why have him as a husband then? *Wouldn't it be easier to have just friends? These are questions I've never seen answered by anyone that advocates for the LD partner.


Very well put! And *exactly* my views on the whole LD/HD thing. I thankfully can't see the posts you are responding to, but can imagine who it would be as their views have been consistent always. Sometimes people view everyone through the lenses of their personal unhappy experiences.

There are plenty of threads on here where the supposedly LD woman with their husband was full on wanton anything goes with another man, doing her AP like a rabbit in heat. Often men tell the husband, she loves sex but just not with you. 

Every female on the planet knows by puberty that males will want and need a vigorous sexual connection with whoever they decide to marry. So if a woman marries and doesn't want sex with her husband she was dishonest and devious when she said her vows. She wanted to take but give nothing in return. If the man didn't end up being who she wanted sex with after they married, then she owes it to herself and him to file and move on.


----------



## sideways

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I really can't blame men that have affairs if their wife is withholding or simply won't touch them. What did she expect would happen?


Why not just divorce in that case?


----------



## backhand

jsmart said:


> I can understand how you feel that the good outweighs the bad. I’m just 2 years younger than you and have been with my wife 35 years, married 32 and have raised 4 kids so I fully understand that despite the low sex, you still cherish what you have.
> 
> Also, I just advise that you make sure some other guy isn’t getting her sexual best. I advise to trust but verify. Lastly, just because she’s an extrovert, doesn’t mean she has to be around other men. You bring a lot to the table too, so there’s nothing wrong with expecting a wife who respects her man enough to not be a siren around other men.


Thanks. It's hard to believe that I could be totally blindsided by my wife, but I wouldn't be the first to be thunderstruck after so many years of marriage and demonstrated integrity. I get it.

As far as being "a siren around other men," that's where it gets tricky. Her "siren" is just her being herself, which I would be foolish and insecure to try to modify. The good news is that she is slowly beginning to understand a little of what I have calmly and "unjealously" been explaining to her about the way (ha, about 85%) of men think around an attractive, fit woman in their age range.


----------



## backhand

Just want to say that i really appreciate the exchanges between downbytheriver and LATERILUS. Fwiw, I agree with LATERILUS' logic but will continue to respectfully reflect on downbytheriver's views. E.g., the 10% number is a guess as much as my 85%, but is eye-opening considering that it comes from a thoughtful source.


----------



## ccpowerslave

backhand said:


> Just want to say that i really appreciate the exchanges between downbytheriver and LATERILUS. Fwiw, I agree with LATERILUS' logic but will continue to respectfully reflect on downbytheriver's views. E.g., the 10% number is a guess as much as my 85%, but is eye-opening considering that it comes from a thoughtful source.


The thing is, I can see the 10% number or even lower. However, if for your partner it is 85% you need to figure out what to do with that (or not) depending on if you want to stay together. Especially if it has changed over time.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

DownByTheRiver said:


> No it's not the same thing. It's not as if that person has never done anything for the family such as bear children, do her share of housework and cook and probably work on top of all that. Sex should not be the only thing that counts as being of value in a marriage especially when you have a family.
> 
> And I don't know why you're calling her the LD because she's not inherently LD. And also just wanting sex at the moment more than your partner does does not make the man HD. They both wanted sex when they married and then circumstances changed that. That doesn't necessarily mean she was ever low drive, *just that she doesn't have the feels for her partner that way anymore.*
> 
> And again I don't think that should count for everything but if divorce is the inevitable result, then so be it. But most women would not think that that alone should count for more than about 10% of the marriage value and in my opinion they would be right. So there's no reason why they should feel obligated to offer divorce. She also should not usually get all the blame for destroying the marriage because of no sex when, with the exception of reasonless cheating, it is usually something the man did or something she found out about him that made her lose her desire for him. So the onus is not all on her unless she's just a big cheater.


Why stay married to someone that no longer has amorous feelings for you? That is what primarily drives people to get married, and it is okay for it to just evaporate? As @LATERILUS79 said, you are in the friend zone. Might was well stay friends and find someone else that will love you and express that physically. I understand that the HD person could have done something to trigger that loss of desire, but again, why stay married even if they "love you, but aren't in love with you anymore?"

I really don't understand why it is perfectly fine for one spouse to unilaterally decide to take an integral part of marriage out of the relationship, but it is selfish and disrespectful for one spouse to expect that same integral part of marriage continue to be part of the relationship. Yet everyone seems to be in agreement that it is wrong for one spouse to unilaterally decide to get that integral part of marriage from someone else. 

I have to say, I am so thankful to be blessed with the relationship I have with my wife.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

backhand said:


> Thanks. It's hard to believe that I could be totally blindsided by my wife, but I wouldn't be the first to be thunderstruck after so many years of marriage and demonstrated integrity. I get it.
> 
> As far as being "a siren around other men," that's where it gets tricky. Her "siren" is just her being herself, which I would be foolish and insecure to try to modify. The good news is that she is slowly beginning to understand a little of what I have calmly and "unjealously" been explaining to her about the way (ha, about 85%) of men think around an attractive, fit woman in their age range.


It is awesome to hear that you and your wife are able to have productive conversations about this. You are smart to stay calm and level headed. I too learned that conversation are much more productive when you keep your cool. It also makes the next conversation easier to start. I fully believe open communication between spouses is a key to a long and happy marriage.


----------



## Rus47

backhand said:


> Thanks. It's hard to believe that I could be totally blindsided by my wife, but I wouldn't be the first to be thunderstruck after so many years of marriage and demonstrated integrity. I get it.
> 
> As far as being "a siren around other men," that's where it gets tricky. Her "siren" is just her being herself, which I would be foolish and insecure to try to modify.* The good news is that she is slowly beginning to understand a little of what I have calmly and "unjealously" been explaining to her about the way (ha, about 85%) of men think around an attractive, fit woman in their age range.*


Do you really think that your *adult* wife had no clue of the impact her behavior can have on other men until you calmly explained??!! This is something I thought all females learn certainly by adolescence. Maybe I grew up on another planet? Think back to when you were in HS. Did you know *ANY* girls who weren't fully aware of how to attract and hold a young male's attention, and used whatever charms they had to best effect? They would pad their pushup bras to make up for what they lacked naturally, wear the shortest skirts the school would tolerate, on and on. Most of them would try out different behaviors, dress, makeup, etc starting with when they reached puberty to perfect their "game". 

I mentioned this to my wife just now and she just giggled.


----------



## Livvie

DownByTheRiver said:


> No it's not the same thing. It's not as if that person has never done anything for the family such as bear children, do her share of housework and cook and probably work on top of all that. Sex should not be the only thing that counts as being of value in a marriage especially when you have a family.
> 
> And I don't know why you're calling her the LD because she's not inherently LD. And also just wanting sex at the moment more than your partner does does not make the man HD. They both wanted sex when they married and then circumstances changed that. That doesn't necessarily mean she was ever low drive, just that she doesn't have the feels for her partner that way anymore.
> 
> And again I don't think that should count for everything but if divorce is the inevitable result, then so be it. But most women would not think that that alone should count for more than about 10% of the marriage value and in my opinion they would be right. So there's no reason why they should feel obligated to offer divorce. She also should not usually get all the blame for destroying the marriage because of no sex when, with the exception of reasonless cheating, it is usually something the man did or something she found out about him that made her lose her desire for him. So the onus is not all on her unless she's just a big cheater.


Here's the thing though. Doing your share of housework, cooking, and working are things that every adult has to do. Married or not. Even single people do those things! Even teens living with their parentsdo those things. Those things aren't what make a _marriage_ relationship and are merely....life chores. 

A marriage is a relationship between 2 people. It's a sexual relationship by definition, it's what separates it from friends. So while it's not the only thing that counts in a marriage, it is the ONE thing that separates it from other relationships.


----------



## backhand

BigDaddyNY said:


> It is awesome to hear that you and your wife are able to have productive conversations about this. You are smart to stay calm and level headed. I too learned that conversation are much more productive when you keep your cool. It also makes the next conversation easier to start. I fully believe open communication between spouses is a key to a long and happy marriage.


Yes, relaxed communication is everything when we talk about her male admirers. Still, she is very independent and does things "to be a nice person" in her social butterfly mind that could be misinterpreted by both her single and married guy friends. She now admits that some of these things could possibly be misinterpreted and sometimes thinks twice, so that's progress.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

backhand said:


> Yes, relaxed communication is everything when we talk about her male admirers. Still, she is very independent and does things "to be a nice person" in her social butterfly mind that could be misinterpreted by both her single and married guy friends. She now admits that some of these things could possibly be misinterpreted and sometimes thinks twice, so that's progress.


Is she friends with any of the wives of these married men? I wonder if she has ever considered how they may view her behavior around their husbands.


----------



## backhand

Rus47 said:


> Do you really think that your *adult* wife had no clue of the impact her behavior can have on other men until you calmly explained??!! This is something I thought all females learn certainly by adolescence. Maybe I grew up on another planet? Think back to when you were in HS. Did you know *ANY* girls who weren't fully aware of how to attract and hold a young male's attention, and used whatever charms they had to best effect? They would pad their pushup bras to make up for what they lacked naturally, wear the shortest skirts the school would tolerate, on and on. Most of them would try out different behaviors, dress, makeup, etc starting with when they reached puberty to perfect their "game".
> 
> I mentioned this to my wife just now and she just giggled.


Thanks. I get it; however, I am confident that this line of thinking is a waste of time in my situation. I have covered this to my satisfaction in other posts (e.g., check out #78 in this thread). The bottom line from that post re: your comment is this: "I know my wife...we have been married 35 years. I don't put her on a pedestal and I am not in denial. As a true extrovert, she gets her energy from being around people...I don't believe it has anything to do with knowing "her sexual power" around men."


----------



## LATERILUS79

DownByTheRiver said:


> Lateralus, just wanted to say I do appreciate your intention to be diplomatic. Sorry I'm only being blunt back at you. Just tired and doing more than one thing at once.


thank you. I do my best. It is not easy to keep from getting emotionally charged on this subject. I personally dealt with it for a very long time. While I don’t anymore, it still stings and I don’t want it to. My wife and I have loved each other for a long time, but communication is very difficult for her. She will avoid it all costs (this has obviously made past problems worse). I love confrontation. She runs away from it. It has gotten to the point where I schedule 1 hour meetings once a week and send her topics to discuss via email 3 days in advance so that she can get a hold of her anxiety and be prepared to speak. For my part, I do my best to calm myself and listen and not go on the attack when we talk.

sounds ridiculous to me that it requires this for a husband and wife to speak, but here I am, and I will do everything in my power to make this work.

like I said, I don’t want to hold onto this resentment anymore. I will say I hold more than 50% of the blame because I allowed myself to wallow in a dead bedroom for 16 years. I have a hard time forgiving myself for that - but she wants to stay married. I’m willing to give her a tryout to show me she belongs on this team. I want her to succeed and I’ll do everything in power to help her succeed, but at the end of the day, she is the one that has to perform.


----------



## backhand

BigDaddyNY said:


> Is she friends with any of the wives of these married men? I wonder if she has ever considered how they may view her behavior around their husbands.


Great question. She met one of the wives recently. Let's just say it was obvious to all that this woman really wanted to meet my wife. My wife picked up on it too, and, as she said, made sure that she looked this woman squarely in the eye throughout their pleasant conversation. 

My wife commented to me afterward that she didn't want to make another wife jealous. But she is wired to be who she is...so rinse and repeat...again, she is just becoming a little more aware of her personality's effect on other people.


----------



## jsmart

This thread reminds me of @backhand thread who’s attractive and very fit wife was spending 25 hours a week playing pickle ball in her tennis outfits with 8 single/divorce men that obviously had the hots for her. At least he was still having regular sex with his wife but he still was tired of the sense that his wife valued the activity more than she cared about his concerns. Both of these husbands understood in their gut that their wife’s actions are inappropriate but neither of them are able to get their wife to dial it down without feeling weak or needy. They want it to come from their heart not because they were browbeat into it.


----------



## backhand

jsmart said:


> This thread reminds me of @backhand thread who’s attractive and very fit wife was spending 25 hours a week playing pickle ball in her tennis outfits with 8 single/divorce men that obviously had the hots for her. At least he was still having regular sex with his wife but he still was tired of the sense that his wife valued the activity more than she cared about his concerns. Both of these husbands understood in their gut that their wife’s actions are inappropriate but neither of them are able to get their wife to dial it down without feeling weak or needy. They want it to come from their heart not because they were browbeat into it.


Lol, that's me...as i said earlier here, just didn't want my specific focus here to get derailed (or rehash another old thread). In answering questions here, I have indirectly updated my own situation. That's fine, I always learn more by getting feedback and it's appreciated. 

As I said, i was curious about my 85% estimate for men in this thread...the resulting input here from other posters has been helpful. As mentioned, the exchanges between downbytheriver and LATERILUS have been especially insightful.


----------



## 346745

DownByTheRiver said:


> It's not a prostitute/john arrangement. Things change. When she married, she wanted to have sex. Now for any number of reasons, she isn't that interested. She never agreed to have sex in exchange for goods or favors, and most women wouldn't, although there are some out there who will if you're straight up about it and that's all you care about. That is not what women are thinking when they get married unless they are a golddigger on the spectrum of sex worker. So you can't expect one to suddenly become a prostitute. But yes, you certainly can divorce if that's where whatever leads you leads you.
> 
> These are all things I've just noticed over and over again on this particular forum, the pattern.
> 
> I know it can happen in the reverse too. I had originally put that in the post but it made it too hard to read and since it's nearly always the man who complains about the most and prioritizes it the most, I used that. I fully realize there are two or three women on here who also had the "no sex" problem and felt their men were selfish.


But it is a trade. As in, "i make you feel good, you make me feel good." That's the best part is making someone else feel really good. And they return the favor.


----------



## In Absentia

Marriages generally work between two people without major issues. Not that many around these days (myself included).


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

sideways said:


> Why not just divorce in that case?


Kids, finances, familiarity, cherry-picked religious beliefs.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

BigDaddyNY said:


> Why stay married to someone that no longer has amorous feelings for you? That is what primarily drives people to get married, and it is okay for it to just evaporate? As @LATERILUS79 said, you are in the friend zone. Might was well stay friends and find someone else that will love you and express that physically. I understand that the HD person could have done something to trigger that loss of desire, but again, why stay married even if they "love you, but aren't in love with you anymore?"
> 
> I really don't understand why it is perfectly fine for one spouse to unilaterally decide to take an integral part of marriage out of the relationship, but it is selfish and disrespectful for one spouse to expect that same integral part of marriage continue to be part of the relationship. Yet everyone seems to be in agreement that it is wrong for one spouse to unilaterally decide to get that integral part of marriage from someone else.
> 
> I have to say, I am so thankful to be blessed with the relationship I have with my wife.


But what happened first is that in the scenario I described, the man never loved her to begin with, doesn't even know what love is, may be incapable of love. He doesn't care about her as a person. The only thing he cares about is having sex, but she doesn't understand that up until the point it comes to a head because very likely he's carefully concealed that and lied to her this whole time, pretending to be someone of substance when he's not.


So I would ask, why would anyone stay married to someone once they found out they don't care about them but only care about sex? That's a bad partner. If that's all a man cares about, why would he ever get married to begin with? Why would a man have a family when his first priority is his penis? Men like this create a house of cards. The only women who want a man with no higher care in life than sex are paid sex workers.


----------



## LATERILUS79

Longtime Hubby said:


> But it is a trade. As in, "i make you feel good, you make me feel good." That's the best part is making someone else feel really good. And they return the favor.


At the basic level, it is indeed a trade - but there is a goal that I strive to attain.

My #1 love language is touch with a close second being words of affirmation.

My wife's #1 is acts of service with #2 being touch.

Just like Livvie said, sex is the ONE thing that separates a marriage from other relationships. As such, it absolutely HAS to be there or there is no reason for the marriage (in my personal opinion).

But I want marriage to be more than a simple transaction, and I know my wife does too. This is where I see an opportunity to elevate the marriage to something more. My wife has not only drastically increased our sexual frequency but also brought a lot of passion to the bedroom. She wants to be there. She wants to have sex with me. In turn, I feel loved. All other women disappear. I only see my wife - the way I always wanted it to be.

As such, I can't stop thinking about her. She's the first thing on my mind when I wake up and the last when I go to sleep. I constantly think of acts of service around the house that I can do for her - but not exactly in the transaction sense. I do them because I WANT TO. Why do I want to? Because I love her and I want her to feel loved and appreciated. It actually makes me feel better knowing that it will make my wife feel loved. It's like the difference between having a job where you come in and punch a clock, or a job where you come in and want to excel and OWN it. You want to do well at your job because you want to be the best.

It feels like my wife are two pistons in an engine and we keep feeding more fuel to the engine to keep it purring along.

On a funny side note, it was very soon after my wife's reawakening that I didn't even notice at first that I was doing extra things around the house. Sure, I'd do my chores like we've always split up, but I would just add things to it subconsciously at first because I was thinking about her. For example, I was taking care of the dishes one day then realized the rest of the kitchen could use a full clean up. F-it. I think I'll clean up the entire kitchen because "reasons". My wife happened to come down just as I was finishing up and says, "What's this? Did you just randomly decide to clean the whole kitchen?" Then she performs her hilariously cartoonish swoon, and then says, "Are you trying to get your D sucked?" 😂

I actually wasn't, but it still happened anyway.


----------



## LATERILUS79

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Kids, finances, familiarity, cherry-picked religious beliefs.


Cherry-picked religions beliefs.... lol. It took me awhile to blow through that one. Childhood indoctrination is a b1tch, even at 42 years old.

All of these things reasons can be handled. You just need to get to a place of indifference, but it can be done.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Longtime Hubby said:


> But it is a trade. As in, "i make you feel good, you make me feel good." That's the best part is making someone else feel really good. And they return the favor.


Again


Longtime Hubby said:


> But it is a trade. As in, "i make you feel good, you make me feel good." That's the best part is making someone else feel really good. And they return the favor.


There's more to a relationship than sex. And if everything else isn't right and whether or not that even has to do with her husband does affect whether a woman feels like having sex. It could be that everything that's wrong is inside her and has nothing to do with him, but women don't like to have sex when they don't feel like it, and men nearly always want it way more frequently than women except in the very beginning of the relationship. For a billion different reasons. They shouldn't have it if they don't want to. He shouldn't stay if that's all he cares about.


----------



## In Absentia

DownByTheRiver said:


> Again
> 
> There's more to a relationship than sex. And if everything else isn't right and whether or not that even has to do with her husband does affect whether a woman feels like having sex. It could be that everything that's wrong is inside her and has nothing to do with him, but women don't like to have sex when they don't feel like it, and men nearly always want it way more frequently than women except in the very beginning of the relationship. For a billion different reasons. They shouldn't have it if they don't want to. He shouldn't stay if that's all he cares about.


I agree with this. That said, the balance has to be right.


----------



## uphillbattle

DownByTheRiver said:


> She also should not usually get all the blame for destroying the marriage because of no sex when, with the exception of reasonless cheating, it is usually something the man did or something she found out about him that made her lose her desire for him. So the onus is not all on her unless she's just a big cheater.


Now I think I know where your point of view comes from.


----------



## In Absentia

uphillbattle said:


> Now I think I know where your point of view comes from.


But she is right... I've been there.


----------



## uphillbattle

In Absentia said:


> But she is right... I've been there.


Didn't say otherwise. We all use our own situation and look at the world through that lens.


----------



## In Absentia

uphillbattle said:


> Didn't say otherwise. We all use our own situation and look at the world through that lens.


Yes, it was poorly phrased... you didn't imply anything.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

DownByTheRiver said:


> But what happened first is that in the scenario I described, the man never loved her to begin with, doesn't even know what love is, may be incapable of love. He doesn't care about her as a person. The only thing he cares about is having sex, but she doesn't understand that up until the point it comes to a head because very likely he's carefully concealed that and lied to her this whole time, pretending to be someone of substance when he's not.
> 
> 
> So I would ask, why would anyone stay married to someone once they found out they don't care about them but only care about sex? That's a bad partner. If that's all a man cares about, why would he ever get married to begin with? Why would a man have a family when his first priority is his penis? Men like this create a house of cards. The only women who want a man with no higher care in life than sex are paid sex workers.


You are talking about a very specific and unusual scenario. There are not many men that get married only because they want sex, that's pretty dumb if you think about it. Men only interested in sex are the guys with commitment issues and don't get married. The vast majority of men that get married are in love with the woman and sex isn't the only thing they love about them. It is however, the one thing in the relationship that is unique to the married couple. It is the one thing they do with their spouse and can't or shouldn't do with anyone else. I would be absolutely heartbroken if the one person in this world that I want to be intimate with (and the only one I have been sexually intimate with) no longer desired me. I would be a completely broken man. 

I have not seen a single person here posting about lack of sex in their marriage come off as only being interested in sex. Usually they profess their love for their spouse, they crave their affection and they have been doing their best to give them what they need hoping to get some physical affection in return, which I don't think is too much to ask from a spouse. 

If a spouse finds out that the only reason their partner married them is for sex, then sure they should divorce if they choose to. However, I think we are talking about a unicorn here. There aren't all kinds of men out there looking to get married for the sole purpose of sex. If they are, they are stupid. I mean the stereotype is marriage is a sex killer, so why in the world would a man do the one thing that is joked about as the best way to stop having sex? Makes no sense.

I'm going to quote @Livvie because this post put it so perfectly:

_"Here's the thing though. Doing your share of housework, cooking, and working are things that every adult has to do. Married or not. Even single people do those things! Even teens living with their parentsdo those things. Those things aren't what make a marriage relationship and are merely....life chores.

*A marriage is a relationship between 2 people. It's a sexual relationship by definition, it's what separates it from friends*. So while it's not the only thing that counts in a marriage, it is the ONE thing that separates it from other relationships. "_


Marriage is inherently a sexual relationship. Without the sex it is not a marriage. Of course if health or some other unavoidable and uncorrectable issue prevents sex that is a different story. That is the self sacrifice that comes with marriage. That is vastly different than one spouse deciding they just don't want to have sex anymore.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Longtime Hubby said:


> But it is a trade. As in, "i make you feel good, you make me feel good." That's the best part is making someone else feel really good. And they return the favor.


It's not a fair trade if the man is asking the woman to have sex when she doesn't even desire it. Most women don't want sex all the time except maybe at the beginning of a relationship. He's got nothing to trade if she doesn't want what he has at that moment, and we all know that most men want sex a lot more frequently than most women. So when you're asking a woman to keep up with your sex drive you're usually asking her for duty sex which will eventually erode the core of your relationship because then she realizes you really don't care about her but just about sex.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

BigDaddyNY said:


> You are talking about a very specific and unusual scenario. There are not many men that get married only because they want sex, that's pretty dumb if you think about it. Men only interested in sex are the guys with commitment issues and don't get married. The vast majority of men that get married are in love with the woman and sex isn't the only thing they love about them. It is however, the one thing in the relationship that is unique to the married couple. It is the one thing they do with their spouse and can't or shouldn't do with anyone else. I would be absolutely heartbroken if the one person in this world that I want to be intimate with (and the only one I have been sexually intimate with) no longer desired me. I would be a completely broken man.
> 
> I have not seen a single person here posting about lack of sex in their marriage come off as only being interested in sex. Usually they profess their love for their spouse, they crave their affection and they have been doing their best to give them what they need hoping to get some physical affection in return, which I don't think is too much to ask from a spouse.
> 
> If a spouse finds out that the only reason their partner married them is for sex, then sure they should divorce if they choose to. However, I think we are talking about a unicorn here. There aren't all kinds of men out there looking to get married for the sole purpose of sex. If they are, they are stupid. I mean the stereotype is marriage is a sex killer, so why in the world would a man do the one thing that is joked about as the best way to stop having sex? Makes no sense.
> 
> I'm going to quote @Livvie because this post put it so perfectly:
> 
> _"Here's the thing though. Doing your share of housework, cooking, and working are things that every adult has to do. Married or not. Even single people do those things! Even teens living with their parentsdo those things. Those things aren't what make a marriage relationship and are merely....life chores.
> 
> *A marriage is a relationship between 2 people. It's a sexual relationship by definition, it's what separates it from friends*. So while it's not the only thing that counts in a marriage, it is the ONE thing that separates it from other relationships. "_
> 
> 
> Marriage is inherently a sexual relationship. Without the sex it is not a marriage. Of course if health or some other unavoidable and uncorrectable issue prevents sex that is a different story. That is the self sacrifice that comes with marriage. That is vastly different than one spouse deciding they just don't want to have sex anymore.


Everything I wrote is taken straight from everything I've read over the last couple of years on this forum. Over and over again, men have written that they don't care about the relationship unless she's keeping up with him sexually. They're willing to throw away an entire family because sex is their number one priority.


----------



## uphillbattle

DownByTheRiver said:


> So when you're asking a woman to keep up with your sex drive you're usually asking her for duty sex which will eventually erode the core of your relationship because then she realizes you *really don't care about her but just about sex*.


So with this rationalization can I assume that if I quit my job and she goes completely bananas that she doesn't care about me all she cares about is the paycheck?


----------



## LATERILUS79

DownByTheRiver said:


> It's not a fair trade if the man is asking the woman to have sex when she doesn't even desire it. Most women don't want sex all the time except maybe at the beginning of a relationship. He's got nothing to trade if she doesn't want what he has at that moment, and we all know that most men want sex a lot more frequently than most women. So when you're asking a woman to keep up with your sex drive you're usually asking her for duty sex which will eventually erode the core of your relationship because then she realizes you really don't care about her but just about sex.


I’m trying to understand where you are coming from. It is a hard defense and you won’t budge at all. I can’t help myself. I want to see your viewpoint.

if my wife doesn’t desire sex, then I’m with you: I prefer to not have sex At all. I’m not interested in duty sex.

fine. I’ll ask again later.

turned down again.

I’ll ask again later.

turned down again.

imagine this goes on for weeks and months.

I get ok to good sex 2-4 times a month. Just enough so that I don’t go f*cking insane.

still, the constant and repeated rejection (and make no mistake, when I am turned down it is ABSOLUTELY a rejection) is taking a massive toll on my emotional state and self esteem.

Maybe I hold no value? You just said it yourself when you mentioned “he has nothing to trade”.

again I ask this: if he has nothing to trade, nothing of value, then why hold onto the man in marriage? What’s the point? Better yet, if he has nothing of value WHY would you be upset and crushed if he were to cheat? You just said he has nothing to trade - this absolutely equates to worthlessness. As such, it is impossible for a worthless person to emotionally crush you if they cheat on you.

I do NOT under any circumstances ask my wife to keep up with my sex drive. My preference would be 9-10 times a week. We average 4.5 times a week and I am OVER THE MOON with happiness.

I do not know where you are meeting these hardcore men that refuse to work with their wives to come to the middle. What concerns me is that I still haven’t seen you budge from your stance to find some common area in the middle.


----------



## FloridaGuy1

DownByTheRiver said:


> It's not a fair trade if the man is asking the woman to have sex when she doesn't even desire it. Most women don't want sex all the time except maybe at the beginning of a relationship. He's got nothing to trade if she doesn't want what he has at that moment, and we all know that most men want sex a lot more frequently than most women. So when you're asking a woman to keep up with your sex drive you're usually asking her for duty sex which will eventually erode the core of your relationship because then she realizes you really don't care about her but just about sex.


I wonder if many women feel this way?


----------



## CountryMike

DownByTheRiver said:


> It's not a fair trade if the man is asking the woman to have sex when she doesn't even desire it. Most women don't want sex all the time except maybe at the beginning of a relationship. He's got nothing to trade if she doesn't want what he has at that moment, and we all know that most men want sex a lot more frequently than most women. So when you're asking a woman to keep up with your sex drive you're usually asking her for duty sex which will eventually erode the core of your relationship because then she realizes you really don't care about her but just about sex.


I don't necessarily agree with this, but it seems to be a scenario bandied about, revisited.


----------



## Rus47

LATERILUS79 said:


> I’m trying to understand where you are coming from. It is a hard defense and you won’t budge at all. I can’t help myself. I want to see your viewpoint.
> 
> if my wife doesn’t desire sex, then I’m with you: I prefer to not have sex At all. I’m not interested in duty sex.
> 
> fine. I’ll ask again later.
> 
> turned down again.
> 
> I’ll ask again later.
> 
> turned down again.
> 
> imagine this goes on for weeks and months.
> 
> I get ok to good sex 2-4 times a month. Just enough so that I don’t go f*cking insane.
> 
> still, the constant and repeated rejection (and make no mistake, when I am turned down it is ABSOLUTELY a rejection) is taking a massive toll on my emotional state and self esteem.
> 
> Maybe I hold no value? You just said it yourself when you mentioned “he has nothing to trade”.
> 
> again I ask this: if he has nothing to trade, nothing of value, then why hold onto the man in marriage? What’s the point? Better yet, if he has nothing of value WHY would you be upset and crushed if he were to cheat? You just said he has nothing to trade - this absolutely equates to worthlessness. As such, it is impossible for a worthless person to emotionally crush you if they cheat on you.
> 
> I do NOT under any circumstances ask my wife to keep up with my sex drive. My preference would be 9-10 times a week. We average 4.5 times a week and I am OVER THE MOON with happiness.
> 
> I do not know where you are meeting these hardcore men that refuse to work with their wives to come to the middle. What concerns me is that I still haven’t seen you budge from your stance to find some common area in the middle.


The only way you are going to find agreement with this discussion is if you agree that the wife gets to determine how your sexuality is expressed. You get it when and how she wants, no discussion argument or byching. If it once a year and you have a problem with that then "you are entitled". And you need to do all of the house work because you live in the house too. Full stop.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

DownByTheRiver said:


> Everything I wrote is taken straight from everything I've read over the last couple of years on this forum. Over and over again, men have written that they don't care about the relationship unless she's keeping up with him sexually. They're willing to throw away an entire family because sex is their number one priority.


I would challenge you to point me to one example where the man wanted nothing more than sex. They don't love their wife for anything other that a vessel to ejaculate into. Just because someone feels sex is a dealbreaker doesn't mean that is the only thing they want from their wife. The problem is when sex dies in a marriage other forms of intimacy and affection dries up to. It isn't just about getting off. Men want to be wanted and desired, as I'm sure women do to. Your marriage is where you are supposed to get that. In fact, when you get married that is exactly what you are agreeing to. 

There are many reasons people give up on a marriage. In you view it is wrong to end a marriage due to no sex, even though sex is the one thing that makes marriage different from every other relationship we have. Is it okay to end a marriage due to financial issues? Is it okay to end marriage due to arguing and no longer getting along? If so, why is sex any different? I would argue that without sex there is no marriage anyway, so why not divorce and co-parent?

You seem to have a very negative perception of men in general.


----------



## Rus47

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I wonder if many women feel this way?


I believe it is only the bitter, resentful, angry ones that feel that way. I would say that is a very small minority, maybe about the same as percentage of males who are 100% RPers.


----------



## Rus47

BigDaddyNY said:


> I would challenge you to point me to one example where the man wanted nothing more than sex. They don't love their wife for anything other that a vessel to ejaculate into. Just because someone feels sex is a dealbreaker doesn't mean that is the only thing they want from their wife. The problem is when sex dies in a marriage other forms of intimacy and affection dries up to. It isn't just about getting off. Men want to be wanted and desired, as I'm sure women do to. Your marriage is where you are supposed to get that.
> 
> There are many reasons people give up on a marriage. In you view it is wrong to end a marriage due to no sex, even though sex is the one thing that makes marriage different from every other relationship we have. Is it okay to end a marriage due to financial issues? Is it okay to end marriage due to arguing and no longer getting along? If so, why is sex any different? I would argue that without sex there is no marriage anyway, so why not divorce and co-parent?
> 
> *You seem to have a very negative perception of men in genera*l.


This^^^^


----------



## sideways

DownByTheRiver said:


> Everything I wrote is taken straight from everything I've read over the last couple of years on this forum. Over and over again, men have written that they don't care about the relationship unless she's keeping up with him sexually. They're willing to throw away an entire family because sex is their number one priority.


You're a piece of work.

Who's "they're willing to throw away an entire family"? "Men have written"? "EVERYTHING I've read"?? So a few hundred men speak for the entire male gender for crying out loud???

Do we have to lay out the countless stupid @$$ things/examples SOME women are willing to do that can potentially blow up their family and tear their kids world apart?? It may not be "sex" but it sure can be an F'd up "priority".

Repeat SOME women!!! And the women who do these things do NOT represent ALL women.

There's F'd up men and F'd women.


----------



## LATERILUS79

DownByTheRiver said:


> Everything I wrote is taken straight from everything I've read over the last couple of years on this forum. Over and over again, men have written that they don't care about the relationship unless she's keeping up with him sexually. They're willing to throw away an entire family because sex is their number one priority.


Who is saying that they are "throwing away" the family? If I divorced my wife, that would not change my family status with my children. I would continue to parent them in the exact same way. It would also not change the status of their mother. She continues to stay as their mother.

The next argument would be, "You are throwing away the *Life* you built together".

What life? The life where I continue to be a husband every single day while almost never having sex with my wife - the one person who I swore my faithfulness to? The one person who said she would have sex with me and love me because I offered her my commitment and faithfulness? 

What kind of life is that? Would it be better to stay together as my mental health degrades over time and my ability to be a good father continues to decline? Is that what you think is best? DBTR, I'm asking you for a moment to put yourself in the shoes of a husband that is in a dead bedroom. Even if sex isn't important to you, I'm asking you to try and realize that it is a top priority to many men on this planet. 

Lastly, please understand this stance as well - a stance that I believe many other men also have: I would rather be alone and never have sex again than to be chained to a woman that trickles "ok" sex to me the rest of my life. I have more respect for myself than that. I refuse for the remainder of my days on this planet to allow my wife to disrespect me in that way. My children would suffer in a household where their father is continually sh1t on day in and day out, and make no mistake, a wife that is treating her husband in that way is absolutely taking a crap on him. 


If there are men that are saying, "I don't care about the relationship because my wife can't keep up with me sexually" then I can work with that. What is the husband doing. What is the wife doing. Has the husband attempted any compromise? Is the wife putting in a lot of effort to show her love to her husband? These are important questions to hash out. I'm trying to understand your rock hard position of absolutely no compromise.


----------



## uphillbattle

Wow, that went off the rails really quick.


----------



## LATERILUS79

Rus47 said:


> The only way you are going to find agreement with this discussion is if you agree that the wife gets to determine how your sexuality is expressed. You get it when and how she wants, no discussion argument or byching. If it once a year and you have a problem with that then "you are entitled". And you need to do all of the house work because you live in the house too. Full stop.


Rus, I'm inclined to agree with you - but only if the HD spouse allows it to happen. This is something that I'm trying to come to terms with this year as I work on my marriage. I need to forgive myself for making such a crucial mistake. I had a backbone when we started dating then lost it for "reasons". It was stupid. I shouldn't have let it happen. I've found it again and I promise you, I will WIN regardless if my wife and I stay together (and I honestly believe this will happen) or we go our separate ways. One thing is for certain, I will laugh in the face of ANYONE that attempts to shame me for leaving a marriage over sex - yes sex. The absolute, undisputed #1 priority of a EVERY marriage, because without it, there is no reason at all to be married. Every other attribute of marriage can truly piss off into the wind until the fundamental basic necessity of marriage is fulfilled.


----------



## uphillbattle

LATERILUS79 said:


> Rus, I'm inclined to agree with you - but only if the HD spouse allows it to happen. This is something that I'm trying to come to terms with this year as I work on my marriage. I need to forgive myself for making such a crucial mistake. I had a backbone when we started dating then lost it for "reasons". It was stupid. I shouldn't have let it happen. I've found it again and I promise you, I will WIN regardless if my wife and I stay together (and I honestly believe this will happen) or we go our separate ways. One thing is for certain, I will laugh in the face of ANYONE that attempts to shame me for leaving a marriage over sex - yes sex. *The absolute, undisputed #1 priority of a EVERY marriage, because without it, there is no reason at all to be married. Every other attribute of marriage can truly piss off into the wind until the fundamental basic necessity of marriage is fulfilled.*


This is where I differ from your thought process. My number 1 priority is trust. My reason for being married to her encompasses so much more than sex. If I were to leave over lack of sex (and I'm not saying I wouldn't) it would be because of her dismissing my feeling of the need for closeness and intimacy as not her problem because she doesn't feel it. The point of being married to me is that one person you can tackle anything with by your side and if 1 person has a problem then it needs to be worked on to correct.


----------



## Rus47

LATERILUS79 said:


> Rus, I'm inclined to agree with you - but *only if the HD spouse allows it to happen*. This is something that I'm trying to come to terms with this year as I work on my marriage. I need to forgive myself for making such a crucial mistake. I had a backbone when we started dating then lost it for "reasons". It was stupid. I shouldn't have let it happen. I've found it again and I promise you, I will WIN regardless if my wife and I stay together (and I honestly believe this will happen) or we go our separate ways. *One thing is for certain, I will laugh in the face of ANYONE that attempts to shame me for leaving a marriage over sex - yes sex.* *The absolute, undisputed #1 priority of a EVERY marriage, because without it, there is no reason at all to be married. Every other attribute of marriage can truly piss off into the wind until the fundamental basic necessity of marriage is fulfilled.*


Right on dude! We receive more of the disrespect we tolerate. I was speaking of the "discussion" you have been having of which I thankfully only see one side.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

uphillbattle said:


> So with this rationalization can I assume that if I quit my job and she goes completely bananas that she doesn't care about me all she cares about is the paycheck?


You can certainly assume that if she doesn't go right out and try to get two jobs to make up for your lack of one. So don't marry a gold digger.


----------



## LATERILUS79

uphillbattle said:


> This is where I differ from your thought process. My number 1 priority is trust. My reason for being married to her encompasses so much more than sex. If I were to leave over lack of sex (and I'm not saying I wouldn't) it would be because of her dismissing my feeling of the need for closeness and intimacy as not her problem because she doesn't feel it. The point of being married to me is that one person you can tackle anything with by your side and if 1 person has a problem then it needs to be worked on to correct.


You make a fair point. I could talk forever about all the other intricacies of marriage until I'm blue in the face. The only way I can really explain what I'm getting at is with the analogy of "survival" vs "living".

I need water, food and shelter to survive. Those are basic necessities. All other issues are put on hold until the basics are met. Why would I be worrying about making sure I'm eating right and exercising daily if I hadn't had a drink of water in 3 days? My top priority is first survival, then I can work on improving my quality of life. 

I look at sex in marriage as an absolute basic necessity. All the other attributes that increase the quality of marriage I can get from friends. Again, why should I be married? Hell, I can have kids outside of a marriage as well if I really wanted to. Why should I lock myself down to just one woman and build a life and family if there is no sex?


----------



## uphillbattle

DownByTheRiver said:


> You can certainly assume that if she doesn't go right out and try to get two jobs to make up for your lack of one. So don't marry a gold digger.


See, I am not sure if this is sarcasm or you honestly believe me making a unilateral decision that effects us both greatly should not be met with opposition. Or maybe it's your way of saying your argument holds no water so come back and throw out a burst of ridiculousness to deflect it.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

LATERILUS79 said:


> I’m trying to understand where you are coming from. It is a hard defense and you won’t budge at all. I can’t help myself. I want to see your viewpoint.
> 
> if my wife doesn’t desire sex, then I’m with you: I prefer to not have sex At all. I’m not interested in duty sex.
> 
> fine. I’ll ask again later.
> 
> turned down again.
> 
> I’ll ask again later.
> 
> turned down again.
> 
> imagine this goes on for weeks and months.
> 
> I get ok to good sex 2-4 times a month. Just enough so that I don’t go f*cking insane.
> 
> still, the constant and repeated rejection (and make no mistake, when I am turned down it is ABSOLUTELY a rejection) is taking a massive toll on my emotional state and self esteem.
> 
> Maybe I hold no value? You just said it yourself when you mentioned “he has nothing to trade”.
> 
> again I ask this: if he has nothing to trade, nothing of value, then why hold onto the man in marriage? What’s the point? Better yet, if he has nothing of value WHY would you be upset and crushed if he were to cheat? You just said he has nothing to trade - this absolutely equates to worthlessness. As such, it is impossible for a worthless person to emotionally crush you if they cheat on you.
> 
> I do NOT under any circumstances ask my wife to keep up with my sex drive. My preference would be 9-10 times a week. We average 4.5 times a week and I am OVER THE MOON with happiness.
> 
> I do not know where you are meeting these hardcore men that refuse to work with their wives to come to the middle. What concerns me is that I still haven’t seen you budge from your stance to find some common area in the middle.


Your preference isn't her preference. Your needs are not her needs. Having an orgasm isn't that high on the list of things women want to do. If all she wants is an orgasm she could give that to herself in probably about 2 minutes. That was never what was the most important thing to her even when courting you . Women look for someone who is interested in them as a person and it's certainly preferable to have a lot of common interests. 

Women get married mostly because they have this ideal of a romantic love and marriage, and that works out for a few of them but it falls flat for many. Women often get married to have a family because it's hard to have a family without a partner. But just having a sexual partner doesn't help you raise your family. And if sex is the main thing a man cares about, then he isn't a good partner. 

You may be getting rejected for many many reasons, but the most basic of which is that women don't have the desire to have sex as frequently as most men want to if they had their ideal situation. So it becomes a chore and something they resent and then they resent you for it just like you resent them for not putting out because you can't accept that women are different. If you're getting your feelings hurt, that's because you can't accept that women are different.

If you want to be free to have sex with a bunch of women for as long as you really think you can get it, then don't have kids and don't get married. Because that's not what marriage is about. Women never see that as being what marriage is about. It's laughable to them.


----------



## LATERILUS79

Rus47 said:


> Right on dude! We receive more of the disrespect we tolerate. I was speaking of the "discussion" you have been having of which I thankfully only see one side.


I enjoy DBTR's responses - and kudos to her as she has multiple men arguing against her on her lonesome. I consider her insight invaluable. She clearly has strong opinions and comes from a lifetime of experiences (sorry, DBTR. I'm well aware that you are in the room. 😁 ).

I almost lost my mind back in February trying to understand my wife's reawakening. It almost broke me. I was ready to leave. I was going to spend all of next year getting my ducks in a row. I didn't hate my wife, but I was slowly falling out of love with her. I was heart broken, and from what I could perceive, she just didn't care. She was supposed to be by my side until the end and I was ready to leave because I thought for sure she didn't love me anymore. It is a pain I cannot describe. This is why I put dead bedrooms as a close second to infidelity as the worst thing you can do to a spouse. The gaslighting. The manipulation. It is all there. 

I was lucky to have found this place. I'm here to speak. I'm here to learn. I want to know DBTR. I want to understand her position - a position that I believe to be well thought out regardless if she budges or not. I want to understand the other side of this because I want to repair my marriage and I don't want to go down this road again.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I wonder if many women feel this way?


Not in the beginning usually. It takes a while to find out if you have a man who is like that. And they're not all like that. But a whole lot of the ones on here complaining about lack of sex are like that.


----------



## LATERILUS79

DownByTheRiver said:


> Your preference isn't her preference. Your needs are not her needs. Having an orgasm isn't that high on the list of things women want to do. If all she wants is an orgasm she could give that to herself in probably about 2 minutes. That was never what was the most important thing to her even when courting you . Women look for someone who is interested in them as a person and it's certainly preferable to have a lot of common interests.
> 
> Women get married mostly because they have this ideal of a romantic love and marriage, and that works out for a few of them but it falls flat for many. Women often get married to have a family because it's hard to have a family without a partner. But just having a sexual partner doesn't help you raise your family. And if sex is the main thing a man cares about, then he isn't a good partner.
> 
> You may be getting rejected for many many reasons, but the most basic of which is that women don't have the desire to have sex as frequently as most men want to if they had their ideal situation. So it becomes a chore and something they resent and then they resent you for it just like you resent them for not putting out because you can't accept that women are different. If you're getting your feelings hurt, that's because you can't accept that women are different.
> 
> If you want to be free to have sex with a bunch of women for as long as you really think you can get it, then don't have kids and don't get married. Because that's not what marriage is about. Women never see that as being what marriage is about. It's laughable to them.


Again, very good points and I follow your points assuming I am the man you are referring to, but I don't think I'm that type. 

If orgasms is all that I need, then I too can do that on my own, so you are missing my point. I need to feel loved, the same way my wife needs to feel loved. 

Secondly, I think you are replacing "need" with "want". Sex is fuel. Sex is water. I cannot move to another area of the marriage until I have my fuel. I cannot continue to give love and commitment when my "love" tank hasn't been filled nor do I think it will be filled. 

When you say, "Women are looking for someone interested in them and prefer common interests" I perceive that as setting up a bait and switch. A manipulation. They want to fool me into providing them what that want. 

It's not that sex is the only thing that I care about. That is disingenuous to say about me as if I am that basic (assuming that is what you think I am). I am objectively a very good partner. A proud father. A good provider. An excellent protector. It's not about me caring about sex..... It's about the fact that I NEED it in order to provide all the other things you are describing. Being a good partner takes a ton of effort. Why would I put myself into an energy deficit and continue to provide all of those things when the person I receive my energy from stops providing? That's insanity. No one in their right mind would keep that up forever. They would be drained.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Some women do have other commodities that they may be willing to put out for. A gay friend of mine, guy, used to laughingly say of one of his boyfriends, He'll f*"* for peanuts."

Maybe your wife will like you more if you perform some handyman chores in trade. Maybe that's her commodity. Maybe she'll like you more if you don't fuss when she lets her mom come to visit for a week. I don't know. Everyone is different. Maybe she just wants you to watch TV with her of an evening instead of going and playing video games by yourself. I mean there are a million variables and a lot of people work it out. But she is motivated differently than he is if all he cares about is making his penis happy. I know my friends all wanted someone a little more complex than that with a little more going on upstairs, and it didn't hurt their sex lives a bit.


----------



## Twodecades

All I can say is that you cannot fully appreciate the pain of being rejected sexually by your spouse until you experience it. I think biologically, men tend to be more HD than women in a marriage, so women generally have less opportunity to experience that rejection. (Maybe in the same way that men don't tend to understand how hard aging and weight gain hit women--on a whole different level--as men aren't judged to the same standards. A lot of them just don't "get it.") 

When I became higher drive for multiple reasons--for reasons attributed to both of us--I could appreciate the other side in a way like no other. (And if you are married long enough, I think it isn't uncommon to switch roles as LD and HD in different seasons.) It's awful. It hits you physically and emotionally. And you only have one place to legit go for that need to be met. It's both a brilliant and terrifying design all at once. 

I can also say that the more sex I have with my husband, the more I want to have. I don't know if it works that way for men or not. Maybe I wouldn't feel that way if I felt like all my husband cared about me for was sex. Don't know, because I don't; even when he does or says things that hurt (because he's human), I can look around and see all of the things he does to love, provide, and care for me and our family, and it's plain that I'm not being used. 

Those are just my humble 2 cents.


----------



## CountryMike

Rus47 said:


> The only way you are going to find agreement with this discussion is if you agree that the wife gets to determine how your sexuality is expressed. You get it when and how she wants, no discussion argument or byching. If it once a year and you have a problem with that then "you are entitled". And you need to do all of the house work because you live in the house too. Full stop.


And THAT will be the day.


----------



## LATERILUS79

DownByTheRiver said:


> Some women do have other commodities that they may be willing to put out for. A gay friend of mine, guy, used to laughingly say of one of his boyfriends, He'll f*"* for peanuts."
> 
> Maybe your wife will like you more if you perform some handyman chores in trade. Maybe that's her commodity. Maybe she'll like you more if you don't fuss when she lets her mom come to visit for a week. I don't know. Everyone is different. Maybe she just wants you to watch TV with her of an evening instead of going and playing video games by yourself. I mean there are a million variables and a lot of people work it out. But she is motivated differently than he is if all he cares about is making his penis happy. I know my friends all wanted someone a little more complex than that with a little more going on upstairs, and it didn't hurt their sex lives a bit.


I won’t put words in your mouth. That is unfair.

I am curious if you think I don’t provide everything you just mentioned.

I’m very good with my hands and my ability to solve problems. Hell, my kids have the craziest toys in the neighborhood because I can’t leave well enough alone. I modify everything. I can fix anything in the house, too. I am extremely strong and can lift Whatever it is that my wife wants moved around the house. I can assure you she wants for nothing in this area of our lives. I will toot my own horn here and say that I am exceptional in this area when compared to the typical man.

I do not fuss about her parents, but I also don’t go out of my way to be in their lives. Her mother and I do not see eye to eye as she subscribed to a modern women’s movement that I strongly disagree with, but under no circumstances do I show her or her father disrespect. My wife is well aware that all video games would be dropped in a heartbeat if she wanted to do something as simple as sitting and talking or watching a show together. I remind her of this often (for the few video games I do play).

again, I’m perplexed by your view of men as a whole. I feel like you feel we are out to get you. I am not perfect by any means, but I can say with confidence that I am a high quality man.

what would you say is your requirement that I have the right to speak? What is your requirement that I must meet in order to have needs of my own?

the only argument I’m seeing so far is that I as the man must do what my wife wants when she wants. If I don’t or I divorce her, then I’m a pig. I’m one of the bad men. Are men allowed to have needs too?


----------



## Rus47

Twodecades said:


> All I can say is that you cannot fully appreciate the pain of being rejected sexually by your spouse until you experience it. I think biologically, men tend to be more HD than women in a marriage, so women generally have less opportunity to experience that rejection. (Maybe in the same way that men don't tend to understand how hard aging and weight gain hits women on a different level, as men aren't judged to the same standards. A lot of them just don't "get it.") When I became higher drive for multiple reasons--for reasons attributed to both of us--I could appreciate the other side in a way like no other. (And if you are married long enough, I think it isn't uncommon to switch roles as LD and HD in different seasons.) It's awful. It hits you physically and emotionally. And you only have one place to legit go for that need to be met. It's both a brilliant and terrifying design all at once.
> 
> I can also say that the more sex I have with my husband, the more I want to have. *I don't know if it works that way for men or not.* Maybe I wouldn't feel that way if I felt like all my husband cared about me for was sex. Don't know, because I don't; even when he does things that hurt (because he's human), I can look around and see all of the things he does to love, provide, and care for me and his family, and it's plain that I'm not being used.
> 
> Those are just my humble 2 cents.


It absolutely does for this man.


----------



## ccpowerslave

DownByTheRiver said:


> Some women do have other commodities that they may be willing to put out for.


I watched an old episode of Maury which had a 16 year old teenager who had sex for a McDonald’s cheeseburger. When Maury asked her why she said, “That was a good cheeseburger Maury.”


----------



## BigDaddyNY

LATERILUS79 said:


> I won’t put words in your mouth. That is unfair.
> 
> I am curious if you think I don’t provide everything you just mentioned.
> 
> I’m very good with my hands and my ability to solve problems. Hell, my kids have the craziest toys in the neighborhood because I can’t leave well enough alone. I modify everything. I can fix anything in the house, too. I am extremely strong and can lift Whatever it is that my wife wants moved around the house. I can assure you she wants for nothing in this area of our lives. I will toot my own horn here and say that I am exceptional in this area when compared to the typical man.
> 
> I do not fuss about her parents, but I also don’t go out of my way to be in their lives. Her mother and I do not see eye to eye as she subscribed to a modern women’s movement that I strongly disagree with, but under no circumstances do I show her or her father disrespect. My wife is well aware that all video games would be dropped in a heartbeat if she wanted to do something as simple as sitting and talking or watching a show together. I remind her of this often (for the few video games I do play).
> 
> again, I’m perplexed by your view of men as a whole. I feel like you feel we are out to get you. I am not perfect by any means, but I can say with confidence that I am a high quality man.
> 
> what would you say is your requirement that I have the right to speak? What is your requirement that I must meet in order to have needs of my own?
> 
> the only argument I’m seeing so far is that I as the man must do what my wife wants when she wants. If I don’t or I divorce her, then I’m a pig. I’m one of the bad men. Are men allowed to have needs too?


I agree, it seems like a no win situation. At what point does the husband's feelings and needs matter?


----------



## DownByTheRiver

LATERILUS79 said:


> Again, very good points and I follow your points assuming I am the man you are referring to, but I don't think I'm that type.
> 
> If orgasms is all that I need, then I too can do that on my own, so you are missing my point. I need to feel loved, the same way my wife needs to feel loved.
> 
> Secondly, I think you are replacing "need" with "want". Sex is fuel. Sex is water. I cannot move to another area of the marriage until I have my fuel. I cannot continue to give love and commitment when my "love" tank hasn't been filled nor do I think it will be filled.
> 
> When you say, "Women are looking for someone interested in them and prefer common interests" I perceive that as setting up a bait and switch. A manipulation. They want to fool me into providing them what that want.
> 
> It's not that sex is the only thing that I care about. That is disingenuous to say about me as if I am that basic (assuming that is what you think I am). I am objectively a very good partner. A proud father. A good provider. An excellent protector. It's not about me caring about sex..... It's about the fact that I NEED it in order to provide all the other things you are describing. Being a good partner takes a ton of effort. Why would I put myself into an energy deficit and continue to provide all of those things when the person I receive my energy from stops providing? That's insanity. No one in their right mind would keep that up forever. They would be drained.


Because she's not a prostitute paying you with sex, my friend. I get that you're not the evil guy at all, but you still don't get that women shouldn't have to have sex when they don't desire it just because you want it. That is how you kill love. 

If it's bait and switch, that bait and switch went both ways during courtship, because I can tell you I've never had a man yet who told me sex is all he cared about and plenty of it. They know if they do, the women won't keep seeing them. So that's the lie. If she is enthusiastic about sex early days, that's because he hasn't yet disenchanted her (if he's going to), or she's still naive to some extent and idealistic that romance will never die. And it's also about that women have children and women's bodies change and women's priorities change, and then as the years go on, finally, it's about aging and slowing down biologically for physical reasons.

You know, I'm old enough to remember that before Viagra and other ED drugs, men also slowed down at a certain point. When that first went on the market (telling you poor gents something else you didn't want to know), there was a collective rolling of eyes by middle-aged women all across the land. 

related article, just one woman's view. 








Woman disgusted with men who use Viagra stops dating







www.chicagotribune.com


----------



## FloridaGuy1

DownByTheRiver said:


> Not in the beginning usually. It takes a while to find out if you have a man who is like that. And they're not all like that. But a whole lot of the ones on here complaining about lack of sex are like that.


If thats true, no wonder there are so many couples with unhappy sex lives.


----------



## ccpowerslave

I can tell you I wanted to have sex with my wife yesterday and I was looking forward to it all day and told her as much.

Night rolls around and she says she’s going to stay up and work.

I say, ok. Will you come to bed first?

Answer: Nope!

So I used to go, what the ****!?!? Then I would get pissed off and go pout like a little *****. The reason is simple. Whatever stupid **** she is doing at work is more important to her than having sex with her husband.

What she craves is words of affirmation. What do you get all day if you’re good at your job? That.

I used to not understand this but once I started to listen to her and try to take whatever comes out of her mouth as a direct connection to her brain and not read anything into it more than that, some of these things started to make more sense to me.

Her: “I don’t think about sex, it’s not a priority for me.”

Translation: Exactly that!!! She doesn’t give a **** about it.

So the prescription for this is, I am telling you if you want to be with me I DO care about it, a lot. I get you sometimes have things you want to do, but if you come from a baseline of being aware this is how I am and make good choices for the marriage then things will be fine and if not then we have problems.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

BigDaddyNY said:


> I agree, it seems like a no win situation. At what point does the husband's feelings and needs matter?


Just remember, your d*** is not as important to anyone as it is to you. That would be a start.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

FloridaGuy1 said:


> If thats true, no wonder there are so many couples with unhappy sex lives.


Because their sex life is the only life they value.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

I just want to thank all the patient enough guys who participated in this opinion sharing with me for being civil about it. I know this is a hot subject that makes a lot of men's blood run cold. 

A lot of couples work it out, and a lot of those are also on this forum.


----------



## LATERILUS79

DownByTheRiver said:


> Because she's not a prostitute paying you with sex, my friend. I get that you're not the evil guy at all, but you still don't get that women shouldn't have to have sex when they don't desire it just because you want it. That is how you kill love.
> 
> If it's bait and switch, that bait and switch went both ways during courtship, because I can tell you I've never had a man yet who told me sex is all he cared about and plenty of it. They know if they do, the women won't keep seeing them. So that's the lie. If she is enthusiastic about sex early days, that's because he hasn't yet disenchanted her (if he's going to), or she's still naive to some extent and idealistic that romance will never die. And it's also about that women have children and women's bodies change and women's priorities change, and then as the years go on, finally, it's about aging and slowing down biologically for physical reasons.
> 
> You know, I'm old enough to remember that before Viagra and other ED drugs, men also slowed down at a certain point. When that first went on the market (telling you poor gents something else you didn't want to know), there was a collective rolling of eyes by middle-aged women all across the land.
> 
> related article, just one woman's view.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Woman disgusted with men who use Viagra stops dating
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.chicagotribune.com


I hope you do not speak to people IRL with expressions that imply a husband treats his wife like a prostitute. I have NEVER treated my wife with such disdain and disrespect.

try as I may, I’m attempting to see your viewpoint. I think it helps me understand my wife’s viewpoint during our dead bedroom years….. but we are at a point in this discussion where neither of us can benefit the other.

You haven’t seen one, not even one point I’ve made. I don’t need to convince you of my stance. I’m only attempting to help gain understanding for all parties. I don’t know you, but I fear something or someone has hurt you to the point where you see all men as evil. If this has happened, I’m sorry.

moving forward in my marriage, I can guarantee this: both my wife and I have agency. I know I will continue to give of myself in the way that she needs. I will only stop if I feel that she no longer Cares to give in the way that I need. At that point, we will separate and I will seek out a quality woman who can.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Keep in mind too this is reciprocal. To try and fix things I started serving much more of her needs that are not sex-based needs.

Listening to what she says and taking it at face value is probably the biggest.

She had to sign a contract and I asked her to have a lawyer read it and she blew up at me a couple months ago. 

So yesterday she brings it up while I am going with her on her daily walk so she gets exercise. They are asking her to sign it again and I just shut the **** up and let her say what she wanted to say and said, “I see, sounds good! It’s great they value you!” She wants words of affirmation on her words of affirmation. Wife is very happy with this. (Not happy enough to plow me though.)


----------



## BigDaddyNY

DownByTheRiver said:


> Because she's not a prostitute paying you with sex, my friend. I get that you're not the evil guy at all, but you still don't get that women shouldn't have to have sex when they don't desire it just because you want it. That is how you kill love.
> 
> If it's bait and switch, that bait and switch went both ways during courtship, because I can tell you I've never had a man yet who told me sex is all he cared about and plenty of it. They know if they do, the women won't keep seeing them. So that's the lie. If she is enthusiastic about sex early days, that's because he hasn't yet disenchanted her (if he's going to), or she's still naive to some extent and idealistic that romance will never die. And it's also about that women have children and women's bodies change and women's priorities change, and then as the years go on, finally, it's about aging and slowing down biologically for physical reasons.
> 
> You know, I'm old enough to remember that before Viagra and other ED drugs, men also slowed down at a certain point. When that first went on the market (telling you poor gents something else you didn't want to know), there was a collective rolling of eyes by middle-aged women all across the land.
> 
> related article, just one woman's view.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Woman disgusted with men who use Viagra stops dating
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.chicagotribune.com


On an occasional basis I completely agree that there are going to be times when one spouse isn't interested in sex, that is completely fine. However, if that stretches into weeks, months, years of no sex and the LD spouse has no interest in working on it with the other spouse, for their sake, there is little reason to stay married. In fact you really aren't in a marriage at that point. They obviously have no physical attraction to you, which is needed for a marriage to work. Bottom line is if there is no sex there probably isn't any intimacy and a marriage is supposed to be the most intimate relationship you have. A sexless marriage robs you of that.

Let's try a different aspect of marriage. Suppose you want conversation and your spouse never wants to talk to you. They have a headache, tired, rather sit and watch TV, just not interested in talking. They bring home a paycheck, share in housework and raising kids, keep up with home repairs, etc.. You can't make them talk, but you also don't need conversation to survive. Would you stay married? Does a marriage with no conversation sound like a healthy marriage?

I'm curious, what is the length of your longest relationship?


----------



## BigDaddyNY

DownByTheRiver said:


> Just remember, your d*** is not as important to anyone as it is to you. That would be a start.


You really don't like men, do you?


----------



## DownByTheRiver

BigDaddyNY said:


> On an occasional basis I completely agree that there are going to be times when one spouse isn't interested in sex, that is completely fine. However, if that stretches into weeks, months, years of no sex and the LD spouse has no interest in working on it with the other spouse, for their sake, there is little reason to stay married. In fact you really aren't in a marriage at that point. They obviously have no physical attraction to you, which is needed for a marriage to work. Bottom line is if there is no sex there probably isn't any intimacy and a marriage is supposed to be the most intimate relationship you have. A sexless marriage robs you of that.
> 
> Let's try a different aspect of marriage. Suppose you want conversation and your spouse never wants to talk to you. They have a headache, tired, rather sit and watch TV, just not interested in talking. They bring home a paycheck, share in housework and raising kids, keep up with home repairs, etc.. You can't make them talk, but you also don't need conversation to survive. Would you stay married? Does a marriage with no conversation sound like a healthy marriage?
> 
> I'm curious, what is the length of your longest relationship?


That scenario with the women wanting conversation happens ALL the time. No, I would not stay in such a marriage, but I am not those women. 

"Working on it" simply means the woman having sex when she doesn't want to, but I agree that if that is the sum total of your interest in the marriage, probably you, your wife and your kids would be better off with you out of the house. I'm just saying that I bet your wife didn't always know that about you and that once she found out and got a whiff of it because you wanted duty sex (not you personally BigDNY), that was the beginning of it spiralling downward and her losing love for you, just like I said in my original post way up there. Or maybe it was because it was clear to her for quite some time that you weren't interested in just talking with her and sharing her life. Happens all the time. Not everyone can basically afford divorce, but if they can and neither is happy, I think that's fine.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

BigDaddyNY said:


> You really don't like men, do you?


I love some men. I don't love men whose only interest is sex or who think their needs must be met by someone else. I loved men who had a lot of other things going on for them and a lot of other interests and common activities and had something impressive going on between their ears, too. A one-note man is just boring to me.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

DownByTheRiver said:


> That scenario with the women wanting conversation happens ALL the time. No, I would not stay in such a marriage, but I am not those women.
> 
> "Working on it" simply means the woman having sex when she doesn't want to, but I agree that if that is the sum total of your interest in the marriage, probably you, your wife and your kids would be better off with you out of the house. I'm just saying that I bet your wife didn't always know that about you and that once she found out and got a whiff of it because you wanted duty sex (not you personally BigDNY), that was the beginning of it spiralling downward and her losing love for you, just like I said in my original post way up there. Or maybe it was because it was clear to her for quite some time that you weren't interested in just talking with her and sharing her life. Happens all the time. Not everyone can basically afford divorce, but if they can and neither is happy, I think that's fine.


So we are actually in agreement. If all else is good you wouldn't stay in a marriage with no conversation. If all else is good I wouldn't stay in a marriage with no sex. 


For me "working on it" does not mean my wife has duty sex with me. It means I am working on things that will get her to desire me and want to have sex with me. If I do everything I can to earn/keep that desire, including counseling, and it fails then the marriage is over. The relationship has changed status from a marriage to a friendship/roommate agreement.


----------



## uphillbattle

BigDaddyNY said:


> So we are actually in agreement. If all else is good you wouldn't stay in a marriage with no conversation. If all else is good I wouldn't stay in a marriage with no sex.
> 
> 
> For me "working on it" does not mean my wife has duty sex with me. It means I am working on things that will get her to desire me and want to have sex with me. If I do everything I can to earn/keep that desire, including counseling, and it fails then the marriage is over. The relationship has changed status from a marriage to a friendship/roommate agreement.


Probably the clearest articulation of this argument I have seen.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

BigDaddyNY said:


> So we are actually in agreement. If all else is good you wouldn't stay in a marriage with no conversation. If all else is good I wouldn't stay in a marriage with no sex.
> 
> 
> For me "working on it" does not mean my wife has duty sex with me. It means I am working on things that will get her to desire me and want to have sex with me. If I do everything I can to earn/keep that desire, including counseling, and it fails then the marriage is over. The relationship has changed status from a marriage to a friendship/roommate agreement.


It would be nice if a woman could come back from losing love for you, and maybe some can, depending on the circumstances. I just can't think of an instance in 68 years where that has happened, though I can think of many who stayed together miserable. And you have to realize not many women translate loving you again into wanting to have more sex than she ever has wanted, so...


----------



## uphillbattle

DownByTheRiver said:


> It would be nice if a woman could come back from losing love for you, and maybe some can, depending on the circumstances. I just can't think of an instance in 68 years where that has happened, though I can think of many who stayed together miserable. And you have to realize not many women translate loving you again into wanting to have more sex than she ever has wanted, so...


Some men may be ok with seeing the effort instead of just being dismissed.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

I don't think it's marriage that shuts women down sexually, but cohabitation. Familiarity breeds contempt. One of the reasons it's sexually charged in the beginning of relationships because your still mysterious. You have your own life and then you meet up once a twice a week and it's sexapalooza.

All that goes out the window when you live with one another. Then you have to deal with one another's bad habits. Not so flattering bodily functions. And they are always there... no alone time.

So of course if she ain't feeling you, she ain't having sex with you. The guy can't figure out why she use to always be on him and now it's 24 7 rejection. She needs mystery to be turned on, while as a man you just need a warm body. But now that you both live together there is no mystery, just same ol you.


----------



## ccpowerslave

BigDaddyNY said:


> For me "working on it" does not mean my wife has duty sex with me. It means I am working on things that will get her to desire me and want to have sex with me.


Yeah. This one is interesting and I found I am a lot happier if I don’t question her motives and instead be happy as long as she is enthusiastic.

Starfish is no good.

“Duty” where she is screwing me because she knows I want her and she doesn’t care if she has an orgasm or not, well I’m ok with that. If she doesn’t care then I don’t care because she knows how to have one if she wants. Sometimes she’ll change her mind partway through and sometimes not. Either way I don’t care.


----------



## ccpowerslave

DownByTheRiver said:


> And you have to realize not many women translate loving you again into wanting to have more sex than she ever has wanted, so...


Totally agree with this. There are many cases here and on Reddit where the guy was never really getting it properly. I mean like 3+ times a day. They then suddenly wake up for some reason and expect the woman that never had high sexual output to suddenly have it.

I class that as a different problem than someone like my wife who for years had sex with me twice a day on most days and then it bleeds down to 2-3x a month. Her potential was always 2-3x a day and I know because I was there participating in it. 

So things changed. Age, hormones, familiarity, behavior, etc… but somewhere in there I knew there was a sexual being.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I don't think it's marriage that shuts women down sexually, but cohabitation. Familiarity breeds contempt. One of the reasons it's sexually charged in the beginning of relationships because your still mysterious. You have your own life and then you meet up once a twice a week and it's sexapalooza.
> 
> All that goes out the window when you live with one another. Then you have to deal with one another's bad habits. Not so flattering bodily functions. And they are always there... no alone time.
> 
> So of course if she ain't feeling you, she ain't having sex with you. The guy can't figure out why she use to always be on him and now it's 24 7 rejection. She needs mystery to be turned on, while as a man you just need a warm body. But now that you both live together there is no mystery, just same ol you.


No mystery, and maybe more importantly, no illusions.


----------



## Rus47

LATERILUS79 said:


> I hope you do not speak to people IRL with expressions that *imply a husband treats his wife like a prostitute.* I have NEVER treated my wife with such disdain and disrespect.
> 
> try as I may, I’m attempting to see your viewpoint. I think it helps me understand my wife’s viewpoint during our dead bedroom years….. but we are at a point in this discussion where neither of us can benefit the other.
> 
> You haven’t seen one, not even one point I’ve made. I don’t need to convince you of my stance. I’m only attempting to help gain understanding for all parties. I don’t know you, but I fear something or someone has hurt you to the point where you see all men as evil. If this has happened, I’m sorry.
> 
> moving forward in my marriage, I can guarantee this: both my wife and I have agency. I know I will continue to give of myself in the way that she needs. I will only stop if I feel that she no longer Cares to give in the way that I need. At that point, we will separate and I will seek out a quality woman who can.


That first statement you quoted is EXACTLY why I ignored her. She likes spewing crap like that! I don't understand how she avoids a ban with crap like that. It is totally UNCALLED FOR!!!!


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

DownByTheRiver said:


> No mystery, and maybe more importantly, no illusions.


So the moral of the story is if she tries to move in one day. Kick her out!


----------



## uphillbattle

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I don't think it's marriage that shuts women down sexually, but cohabitation. Familiarity breeds contempt. One of the reasons it's sexually charged in the beginning of relationships because your still mysterious. You have your own life and then you meet up once a twice a week and it's sexapalooza.
> 
> All that goes out the window when you live with one another. Then you have to deal with one another's bad habits. Not so flattering bodily functions. And they are always there... no alone time.
> 
> So of course if she ain't feeling you, she ain't having sex with you. The guy can't figure out why she use to always be on him and now it's 24 7 rejection. She needs mystery to be turned on, while as a man you just need a warm body. But now that you both live together there is no mystery, just same ol you.


I always thought of it as excitement. Which is why there are relationships that can keep the spark. Mystery is impossible to keep going, excitement is very difficult but not impossible.


----------



## FloridaGuy1

It would be intersting to hear from other women here to see if they share DBTR's sentiments?


----------



## uphillbattle

Rus47 said:


> That first statement you quoted is EXACTLY why I ignored her. She likes spewing crap like that! I don't understand how she avoids a ban with crap like that. It is totally UNCALLED FOR!!!!


I don't necessarily agree with her very often, but I see much worse on here that don't catch a ban.


----------



## CountryMike

DownByTheRiver said:


> Just remember, your d*** is not as important to anyone as it is to you. That would be a start.


😮

Say it's not so! It's such a versatile appendage. 
🤣🤣🤣


----------



## BigDaddyNY

DownByTheRiver said:


> It would be nice if a woman could come back from losing love for you, and maybe some can, depending on the circumstances. I just can't think of an instance in 68 years where that has happened, though I can think of many who stayed together miserable. And you have to realize not many women translate loving you again into wanting to have more sex than she ever has wanted, so...


I agree, if the spark has been totally extinguished there is probably no coming back. That is why you have to be constantly paying proper attention to your marriage and take action before it is too late. 

There are examples of it turning around, @LATERILUS79 and @ccpowerslave for example. I was far from a loveless/sexless marriage, but I saw it starting to go the wrong way and we fixed it. We continue to keep it all good.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Twodecades said:


> All I can say is that you cannot fully appreciate the pain of being rejected sexually by your spouse until you experience it. I think biologically, men tend to be more HD than women in a marriage, so women generally have less opportunity to experience that rejection. (Maybe in the same way that men don't tend to understand how hard aging and weight gain hits women on a different level, as men aren't judged to the same standards. A lot of them just don't "get it.") When I became higher drive for multiple reasons--for reasons attributed to both of us--I could appreciate the other side in a way like no other. (And if you are married long enough, I think it isn't uncommon to switch roles as LD and HD in different seasons.) It's awful. It hits you physically and emotionally. And you only have one place to legit go for that need to be met. It's both a brilliant and terrifying design all at once.
> 
> I can also say that the more sex I have with my husband, the more I want to have. I don't know if it works that way for men or not. Maybe I wouldn't feel that way if I felt like all my husband cared about me for was sex. Don't know, because I don't; even when he does things that hurt (because he's human), I can look around and see all of the things he does to love, provide, and care for me and his family, and it's plain that I'm not being used.
> 
> Those are just my humble 2 cents.


I've read women want sex more after having it because semen has testosterone in it which makes women more horny. Not sure if that is true but makes sense to me.

So maybe it works in reverse for men since you are releasing all that testerone when ejaculating 🤔 . Atleast for awhile until you regenerate new soldiers.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I don't think it's marriage that shuts women down sexually, but cohabitation. Familiarity breeds contempt. One of the reasons it's sexually charged in the beginning of relationships because your still mysterious. You have your own life and then you meet up once a twice a week and it's sexapalooza.
> 
> All that goes out the window when you live with one another. Then you have to deal with one another's bad habits. Not so flattering bodily functions. And they are always there... no alone time.
> 
> So of course if she ain't feeling you, she ain't having sex with you. The guy can't figure out why she use to always be on him and now it's 24 7 rejection. She needs mystery to be turned on, while as a man you just need a warm body. But now that you both live together there is no mystery, just same ol you.


This is a great argument for why people should cohabitate prior to marriage. If you live with someone a couple year before you get married you have a much better insight on who they really are.


----------



## LATERILUS79

ccpowerslave said:


> So things changed. Age, hormones, familiarity, behavior, etc… but somewhere in there I knew there was a sexual being.


I recognize this. That potential. It would be a different game if I went into the relationship and it was low amounts of sex from the start. 2.5 years straight of essentially having sex every day AND cohabitating within the first 3 months..... yep. It screwed with my mind. It took me a LONG time to knock myself out of it. It's a horrible feeling. I remember so many days of trying to discover what I did wrong all of a sudden. Asking her what's wrong. Nothing. 

I knew deep down the sexual being was still there. I kept saying to myself over and over "she will come back to me, she will come back to me, this is a phase. This can be fixed. I know my wife is in there somewhere." All along the way, I would see flashes of her from time to time, but never really "her". It was a massive shock to the system when she randomly showed up at the house one day in December. Truly, it really did feel like my 24 year old wife walked out the door and never came back.... then one day I hear a knock on my front door and this 41 year old woman whom I remember from my younger days was just standing there. She says "hi" like it's nothing. Like she didn't disappear for 16 years. Like we should pick right back up where we left off. She initiates sex all the time (just finished up my afternoon delight just now). She wants it again, she desires to be there with me. 

It's a mindf**k and it is going to take us time to work through it and the emotions involved. I was on my way to detaching and I got slammed in the other direction back into falling in love with my wife again. We are talking again, albeit slowly, but we are working through things. I hope it continues in a positive direction. Like I said, I want to rid myself of my resentment and I want to forgive myself for not taking care of this problem sooner.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

uphillbattle said:


> Some men may be ok with seeing the effort instead of just being dismissed.


Yes! When I brought up sex and intimacy to my wife when I had a concern, her mere desire to work on it had a deep impact on me. And when I saw her changing her behavior, even subtly, it was an amazing feeling. It made me want to improve even more, for her. All I really want is to know I and desired and attractive to the one and only person I desire and I'm attracted to. Love and desire is much better when it is reciprocal.


----------



## FloridaGuy1

BigDaddyNY said:


> This is a great argument for why people should cohabitate prior to marriage. If you live with someone a couple year before you get married you have a much better insight on who they really are.


Yeah but we lived together for three years before marriage and well...you know my story.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

BigDaddyNY said:


> I agree, if the spark has been totally extinguished there is probably no coming back. That is why you have to be constantly paying proper attention to your marriage and take action before it is too late.
> 
> There are examples of it turning around, @LATERILUS79 and @ccpowerslave for example. I was far from a loveless/sexless marriage, but I saw it starting to go the wrong way and we fixed it. We continue to keep it all good.


I admit to falling into this trap as a man. If it's not kids, it's bills or it's work. Then you have to somehow get in the headspace to romance your wife even though sex is what you really want. Sometimes I need a few drinks to unwind from stress.


----------



## leftfield

@DownByTheRiver, have you been married? I know you have shared some stories about your love life, but if I recall correctly, you never actually got married. You talk a lot about your experiances with relationships and that you have seen a lot of scoundrals (men) in the music industry. But I don't recall you ever talking about long relationships. How long has your longest relationship been?


----------



## ccpowerslave

BigDaddyNY said:


> There are examples of it turning around, @LATERILUS79 and @ccpowerslave for example. I was far from a loveless/sexless marriage, but I saw it starting to go the wrong way and we fixed it. We continue to keep it all good.


One big difference for me is it was never a mystery how the tap turned back on nor was it like flipping a switch. It was more of a process that took months and one that is ongoing every day.

The tap turned on when I turned the “fix it or we’re done” handle. It wasn’t an easy handle to turn, it took me months to mentally prepare for it and then it wasn’t easy because what if she says pound sand? It made me physically sick to my stomach. 

However nothing good comes for free and if you want to change things then you need to commit to the consequences.

I am actually much more healthy mentally now than a year ago at this time. If she says ok the tap is turned off I don’t think it would have the same impact as then. 

It’s kind of like pets. The first time for me that my pet kitty died I felt physically sick for two weeks. My next cat died and I felt sad for two days.

So if the tap is shut off now, we get our attorney to divide up our stuff and you will be seeing me at the bar on Main Street in my home town picking up women (ideally bikini clad) within a few weeks and taking them to my beach condo.

Crappy, maybe… I have seen too many things and too many people die in the last couple years, some younger. I don’t want to waste the years I have left.


----------



## LATERILUS79

ccpowerslave said:


> One big difference for me is it was never a mystery how the tap turned back on nor was it like flipping a switch. It was more of a process that took months and one that is ongoing every day.
> 
> The tap turned on when I turned the “fix it or we’re done” handle. It wasn’t an easy handle to turn, it took me months to mentally prepare for it and then it wasn’t easy because what if she says pound sand? It made me physically sick to my stomach.
> 
> However nothing good comes for free and if you want to change things then you need to commit to the consequences.
> 
> I am actually much more healthy mentally now than a year ago at this time. If she says ok the tap is turned off I don’t think it would have the same impact as then.
> 
> It’s kind of like pets. The first time for me that my pet kitty died I felt physically sick for two weeks. My next cat died and I felt sad for two days.
> 
> So if the tap is shut off now, we get our attorney to divide up our stuff and you will be seeing me at the bar on Main Street in my home town picking up women (ideally bikini clad) within a few weeks and taking them to my beach condo.
> 
> Crappy, maybe… I have seen too many things and too many people die in the last couple years, some younger. I don’t want to waste the years I have left.


Brother, I was 1-2 years behind you. Probably 1 year if I’m being honest with myself.

What got me the most is when you said, “what if she tells me to pound sand?”

I wanted to remove this variable. The answer to the sex question no longer mattered. I would be fully detached and I wouldn’t care what her answer in return was. I would be at peace and ready to move on with my life.

it does make me wonder if I indirectly had anything to do with her waking up. Did she see me detaching? Did she see me pulling away and realizing this sh1t is serious?

lol. And so I add to my list of topics for our weekly chat. 😂


----------



## ccpowerslave

I dunno. I can say this month is not starting out well. There better be some amazing stuff coming up. 

She kicked me in the balls yesterday and of course is oblivious to it as I mentioned earlier because she literally gives it no thought whatsoever.

It is possible her comfort level returns to where she stops trying as hard. Fortunately I have an objective record of it and then we make an adjustment or don’t.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

leftfield said:


> @DownByTheRiver, have you been married? I know you have shared some stories about your love life, but if I recall correctly, you never actually got married. You talk a lot about your experiances with relationships and that you have seen a lot of scoundrals (men) in the music industry. But I don't recall you ever talking about long relationships. How long has your longest relationship been?


Not married. I'm not the domestic type and wasn't having children. I've known a few of the guys I dated for 30 years, because we have things in common, but I didn't marry them. I just knew I wouldn't last long being under the same roof. I had things I wanted to do and wanted to be single.


----------



## In Absentia

FloridaGuy1 said:


> It would be intersting to hear from other women here to see if they share DBTR's sentiments?


My wife would agree with her entirely.


----------



## LATERILUS79

In Absentia said:


> My wife would agree with her entirely.


Oh damn.

that super sucks. Sorry bro.


----------



## staceymj86

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I wonder if many women feel this way?


I feel like that at times. There have been periods where I don’t feel like having sex, and then when he ask I decline. When too much time has passed (usually a week) and he’s persistent about having sex, I do it and at that point it feel like duty sex and I’m doing the bare minimum to get him off. He’s HD and I’m in between HD and LD. He wants sex more than I do. I can’t match his sex drive if I tried to. I used to think he only want me to have sex because he’s been trying for years before we started dating.

I am now making the effort to show him I love him and that has had its ups and downs but it’s slowly making progress to where it used to be when we first started dating.


----------



## staceymj86

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I've read women want sex more after having it because semen has testosterone in it which makes women more horny. Not sure if that is true but makes sense to me.
> 
> So maybe it works in reverse for men since you are releasing all that testerone when ejaculating  . Atleast for awhile until you regenerate new soldiers.


That is true for me. Once he cum I don’t want to stop, and of course he’s trying to catch his second wind.


----------



## In Absentia

LATERILUS79 said:


> Oh damn.
> 
> that super sucks. Sorry bro.


It doesn't suck. Well, a bit.  It was a lack of communication about her mental issues (and their severity) which led me to a certain behaviour which caused her to detach. She expected me to be able to read her mind, but I couldn't and it went wrong. She says we are 50/50 to blame, but it's more 30/70 (the 70 is me) because I was immature and not well equipped to deal with a crisis, probably because of my childhood issues and upbringing.

The reason why I'm saying that @DownByTheRiver is right is because I was one of those men who cared too much about sex and I wasn't smart enough to understand the marriage's dynamics. It's too late now.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

In Absentia said:


> It doesn't suck. Well, a bit.  It was a lack of communication about her mental issues (and their severity) which led me to a certain behaviour which caused her to detach. She expected me to be able to read her mind, but I couldn't and it went wrong. She says we are 50/50 to blame, but it's more 30/70 (the 70 is me) because I was immature and not well equipped to deal with a crisis, probably because of my childhood issues and upbringing.
> 
> The reason why I'm saying that @DownByTheRiver is right is because I was one of those men who cared too much about sex and I wasn't smart enough to understand the marriage's dynamics. It's too late now.


It's really great that you're both owning it.


----------



## ccpowerslave

If there’s nothing physically wrong with either person then IMHO I really doubt things happen as many men believe where their component in the shutdown is low or minimal. 

I’m sure the “evil malicious LD” and/or gold digger variants exist but I’d guess most people are entering marriage in good faith and then things change.

It takes a lot of self reflection to see what your own part in it might have been.


----------



## In Absentia

DownByTheRiver said:


> It's really great that you're both owning it.


Yes, it is, although I'm not 100% certain of my wife's reasons. I am guessing. It would be good to know the exact reasons and her POV, for closure, but I suppose it doesn't matter now.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

ccpowerslave said:


> If there’s nothing physically wrong with either person then IMHO I really doubt things happen as many men believe where their component in the shutdown is low or minimal.
> 
> I’m sure the “evil malicious LD” and/or gold digger variants exist but I’d guess most people are entering marriage in good faith and then things change.
> 
> It takes a lot of self reflection to see what your own part in it might have been.


This is why I keep coming to TAM ten years after my divorce. I always find new ways to reflect on the dynamics in my marriage that led to its failure. I am now much better at discerning who would make a compatible partner for me, and much more comfortable at communicating my own needs and desires.


----------



## married54yrs

During sexual union in the early years of marriage, my wife and I both focused primarily on our own personal physical and emotional feelings. Although she says that I tended to focus on myself more than she did on herself. Well, maybe.

As the years passed, we both became more aware of the other during foreplay and sexual union. I learned to be more patient and to listen more attentively to what she was saying , both verbally and nonverbally. She was saying a lot!

The best part was the absolute joy, peace, and contentment I could see on her face during our love making. Realizing that I had the power to give her those feelings was fabulous and very wonderful. Of course, I have to say that the extent of her joy, peace, and contentment varied from time to time, maybe because we were pre-occupied, maybe because the wind was blowing from the south. Nevertheless, the experience and memories are priceless!

Is sex more important to me than to my wife? I would say a resounding YES, and I'm pretty sure she would agree with that answer. Sex was a very strong motivation for me to get married; wife's primary motivation was fulfillment and family. Mercy. But from another point of view, if I had wanted to cook, I wouldn't have gotten married. If she had wanted to change the oil in the car, she wouldn't have gotten married. Boy, life sure is a mystery.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

@backhand How did things go with your wife and the hotel threat? Are you doing okay?


----------



## ElwoodPDowd

DownByTheRiver said:


> It would be nice if a woman could come back from losing love for you, and maybe some can, depending on the circumstances. I just can't think of an instance in 68 years where that has happened, though I can think of many who stayed together miserable. And you have to realize not many women translate loving you again into wanting to have more sex than she ever has wanted, so...


I agree, things only ever get worse.
But there's a lot of really hopeful people out there.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

ElwoodPDowd said:


> I agree, things only ever get worse.
> But there's a lot of really hopeful people out there.


Majority of people are just inherently fearful of change.


----------



## In Absentia

DownByTheRiver said:


> Majority of people are just inherently fearful of change.


Fair enough... I was one. But very often there also kids and financial ruin involved. As you know, it's not black and white.


----------



## AGoodFlogging

DownByTheRiver said:


> Majority of people are just inherently fearful of change.


Change can be hugely destructive, that's why. I think that in many cases that change can lead to something better but it often comes with hardship in the short term and there are no guarantees.


----------



## In Absentia

AGoodFlogging said:


> Change can be hugely destructive, that's why. I think that in many cases that change can lead to something better but it often comes with hardship in the short term and there are no guarantees.


so, some people (myself included) choose to stay in a mediocre marriage (with good memories and kids) over the unknown. It's a lot easier. And then we come come here and complain about it... 

P.S. I don't have a marriage anymore.


----------



## ElwoodPDowd

In Absentia said:


> so, some people (myself included) choose to stay in a mediocre marriage (with good memories and kids) over the unknown. It's a lot easier. And then we come come here and complain about it...
> P.S. I don't have a marriage anymore.


I wouldn't class a marriage without sex as 'mediocre'.


----------



## Rus47

In Absentia said:


> so, some people (myself included) choose to stay in a mediocre marriage (with good memories and kids) over the unknown. It's a lot easier. *And then we come come here and complain about it..*.
> 
> P.S. I don't have a marriage anymore.


Inertia keeps us in situations we are familiar with even if we are miserable. Stay in a job we hate because to leave is a bigger risk. Stay in an area where we hate the weather or scenery because moving is traumatic and expensive. Stay in a miserable relationship, abusive marriage because nothing guarantees leaving will be any better and is expensive. A body at rest tends to stay at rest.

TAM is cheap (free) "therapy" and a safe place to vent frustrations. What is not to like?


----------



## Anastasia6

FloridaGuy1 said:


> It would be intersting to hear from other women here to see if they share DBTR's sentiments?


While I don't think anyone shares anyone elses exact sentiments. .....

I can tell you I have lots of sex with my husband but if I thought that is all our relationship was about. I would be very resentful. I would probably stop desiring him as much and eventually would probably cut sex off and divorce.

I do feel reading this forum that some of the posters make it obvious that sex is their number one priority and that the way they 'love' their wife would be unacceptable to me.
I know I shouldn't have joined in this fray. I know now I'll get bashed but I thought a few more women's perspective might be useful.

I know on this forum it is so usual for men to complain about a wife with a lower drive (and sometimes women) and the immediate advice is tell her to step it up or you are going to divorce her. This is very subverise in my opinion and is very much like blackmail. On one hand years without sex is also abusive from one spouse but expecting it more than is pleasurable to both spouses is also abusive. I don't know why LD and HD can't see the others point of view. I don't know why there is always some evil emotion associated with lower drive. I know my own marriage has been through cycles of higher sex and less sex. Children really are a libido killer for many women. Yes yes here comes the chorus of well I had sex 3 hours after birth ....... or some such ****. Not everyone is the same.

Spouses should work together to find satisfying solutions to any issue. Spouses should want to make each other feel loved. Spouses should build each other up.
I can say when I first got married I had this thing where I didn't want my breasts touched much. Because I"m large breasted men were always enamored with my breasts, always trying to touch them, always asking me out or what have you. Subconciously (no I didn't realize I was doing it until much later), when my husband wanted to touch my breasts it relayed in my brain as lack of wanting me and just wanting my breasts. I never told him not to touch my breasts but he seemed to understand that I didn't like it that much and accepted that. Later when I examined things more closely and realized what was happening well now I like him touching my breasts, my nipples, cupping them. I'll even cup them myself trying to entice him. You see I had no evil plan back then to deny him my breasts to keep part of me from him. It was simply a product of being a human with past experiences. We all have past experiences. But your bad past experiences like being pressured for sex when you have had one hell of a day, you are tired and have a headache. Well those shouldn't come from your spouse.

I think too many times TAM approaches the no sex issue with one and only one approach. Just because you don't want to be married to a lower drive spouse doesn't mean every person who comes to TAM wants to divorce their low drive spouse. Many women because the child raising and secure home falls to them will stay in an unhappy marriage until they reach the balance point of child's age versus done. For some that is 12, 15, 17, out of the house, out of college. It's the walk away wife. I think this idea of sex or divorce is certainly one that leads there. It just takes longer for the wife to get to the divorce part.

The idea that the only reason to get married is sex is offensive and yes a lot like prostitution. Marriage is supposed to be the act of building a life together. Your spouse should be closer to you than anyone else. That includes sex. You shouldn't be having sex with your friends. But to make it so one dimensional is gross.


----------



## In Absentia

ElwoodPDowd said:


> I wouldn't class a marriage without sex as 'mediocre'.


It wasn't without sex. The frequency wasn't enough for me.


----------



## In Absentia

Rus47 said:


> Inertia keeps us in situations we are familiar with even if we are miserable. Stay in a job we hate because to leave is a bigger risk. Stay in an area where we hate the weather or scenery because moving is traumatic and expensive. Stay in a miserable relationship, abusive marriage because nothing guarantees leaving will be any better and is expensive. A body at rest tends to stay at rest.
> 
> TAM is cheap (free) "therapy" and a safe place to vent frustrations. What is not to like?


Frequency of sex was my only problem. Once or twice a month wasn't enough. This only happened in the last 15 years, a few years after our last child. As the say goes, when you don't have sex problems, sex is only 10% of the marriage, when you have sex problems, it becomes 90%. As I said before, I wasn't mature enough and I didn't deal with the lack of sex it correctly.


----------



## Anastasia6

In Absentia said:


> Frequency of sex was my only problem. Once or twice a month wasn't enough. This only happened in the last 15 years, a few years after our last child. As the say goes, when you don't have sex problems, sex is only 10% of the marriage, when you have sex problems, it becomes 90%. As I said before, I wasn't mature enough and I didn't deal with the lack of sex it correctly.


And so did you do the standard have sex with me or else?


----------



## DownButNotOut

Rus47 said:


> Inertia keeps us in situations we are familiar with even if we are miserable. Stay in a job we hate because to leave is a bigger risk. Stay in an area where we hate the weather or scenery because moving is traumatic and expensive. Stay in a miserable relationship, abusive marriage because nothing guarantees leaving will be any better and is expensive. A body at rest tends to stay at rest.
> 
> TAM is cheap (free) "therapy" and a safe place to vent frustrations. What is not to like?


I don't think that's the full story. Men, from an early age, are conditioned to suck it up and keep going. From youth sports, school, boot camp, male-dominated physical jobs like roofing, commercial fishing, power line maintenance. Injured? rub some dirt in it and do your job. Hurt Feelings? F your feelings, get back out there and do your job. Men are taught that at the end of the day what matters is do your job. That carries over into relationships. Because it's expected in other aspects of life, when a marriage isn't going well a man's instinct is often to suck it up and keep going. When a man's wife withholds sex one of two things generally happens. He steps out and blows up his marriage, or he sucks it up and keeps doing his job. But in the second, he isn't happy. He is silently dying inside while he does his job.

I think this is a male truism that women often don't get until it is too late. Withhold sex from your husband and you will either destroy your marriage, or you will destroy your man.


----------



## ccpowerslave

The thing I’d like to hear from women (and I know there are a few HD on here) is what you think your husband/boyfriend(s) would say if you hooked them up to a lie detector and asked them if they wanted more sex with you?

The follow up question is, if you answered that your partner would say yes, what’s stopping you?


----------



## FloridaGuy1

Anastasia6 said:


> While I don't think anyone shares anyone elses exact sentiments. .....
> 
> I can tell you I have lots of sex with my husband but if I thought that is all our relationship was about. I would be very resentful. I would probably stop desiring him as much and eventually would probably cut sex off and divorce.
> 
> I do feel reading this forum that some of the posters make it obvious that sex is their number one priority and that the way they 'love' their wife would be unacceptable to me.
> I know I shouldn't have joined in this fray. I know now I'll get bashed but I thought a few more women's perspective might be useful.
> 
> I know on this forum it is so usual for men to complain about a wife with a lower drive (and sometimes women) and the immediate advice is tell her to step it up or you are going to divorce her. This is very subverise in my opinion and is very much like blackmail. On one hand years without sex is also abusive from one spouse but expecting it more than is pleasurable to both spouses is also abusive. I don't know why LD and HD can't see the others point of view. I don't know why there is always some evil emotion associated with lower drive. I know my own marriage has been through cycles of higher sex and less sex. Children really are a libido killer for many women. Yes yes here comes the chorus of well I had sex 3 hours after birth ....... or some such ****. Not everyone is the same.
> 
> Spouses should work together to find satisfying solutions to any issue. Spouses should want to make each other feel loved. Spouses should build each other up.
> I can say when I first got married I had this thing where I didn't want my breasts touched much. Because I"m large breasted men were always enamored with my breasts, always trying to touch them, always asking me out or what have you. Subconciously (no I didn't realize I was doing it until much later), when my husband wanted to touch my breasts it relayed in my brain as lack of wanting me and just wanting my breasts. I never told him not to touch my breasts but he seemed to understand that I didn't like it that much and accepted that. Later when I examined things more closely and realized what was happening well now I like him touching my breasts, my nipples, cupping them. I'll even cup them myself trying to entice him. You see I had no evil plan back then to deny him my breasts to keep part of me from him. It was simply a product of being a human with past experiences. We all have past experiences. But your bad past experiences like being pressured for sex when you have had one hell of a day, you are tired and have a headache. Well those shouldn't come from your spouse.
> 
> I think too many times TAM approaches the no sex issue with one and only one approach. Just because you don't want to be married to a lower drive spouse doesn't mean every person who comes to TAM wants to divorce their low drive spouse. Many women because the child raising and secure home falls to them will stay in an unhappy marriage until they reach the balance point of child's age versus done. For some that is 12, 15, 17, out of the house, out of college. It's the walk away wife. I think this idea of sex or divorce is certainly one that leads there. It just takes longer for the wife to get to the divorce part.
> 
> The idea that the only reason to get married is sex is offensive and yes a lot like prostitution. Marriage is supposed to be the act of building a life together. Your spouse should be closer to you than anyone else. That includes sex. You shouldn't be having sex with your friends. But to make it so one dimensional is gross.


Interesting...thanks for sharing your perspective.

So maybe when my wife says she doesn't want to have sex as the house is dirty or for some other reason I can't appreciate she is sincere even though I would have sex pretty much anytime.


----------



## Anastasia6

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Interesting...thanks for sharing your perspective.
> 
> So maybe when my wife says she doesn't want to have sex as the house is dirty or for some other reason I can't appreciate she is sincere even though I would have sex pretty much anytime.


I think many women are sincere when they communicate. I think men don't want to hear it or it isn't a valid excuse. I also think that with more communication that things can improve. Many women are responsive desire and so have a hard time understanding the constant or sudden desire of men. Much the same as men have trouble understanding you can love someone immensly and not understand the obsession with sex.

Me and my husband have sex a lot. Right now we are limited by his desire not mine. But there have been years where we were limited by my desire not his. Being a member of TAM has given me a perspective into male psyche that I never quite had before? or reinforced the teenage thing men only want to get into your pants thing. I don't know. I feel my husband isnt like many here and has shown me his love for 27 years in ways that are tangible and not related to sex. That makes sex a beautiful loving thing between us and not some transactional thing or reducing me to just a vagina.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Anastasia6 said:


> I think many women are sincere when they communicate. I think men don't want to hear it or it isn't a valid excuse.


Agreed. Listening to my wife and taking what she says at face value has helped us tremendously.


----------



## Rus47

Anastasia6 said:


> I think many women are sincere when they communicate. I think men don't want to hear it or it isn't a valid excuse. I also think that with more communication that things can improve. Many women are responsive desire and so have a hard time understanding the constant or sudden desire of men. Much the same as men have trouble understanding you can love someone immensly and not understand the obsession with sex.
> 
> Me and my husband have sex a lot. Right now we are limited by his desire not mine. But there have been years where we were limited by my desire not his. Being a member of TAM has given me a perspective into male psyche that I never quite had before? or reinforced the teenage thing men only want to get into your pants thing. I don't know. I feel my husband isnt like many here and has *shown me his love for 27 years in ways that are tangible and not related to sex*. That makes sex a beautiful loving thing between us and not some transactional thing or reducing me to just a vagina.


So what in your mind would be tangible? Would feeding and diapering each of four kids at night so the wife can get some sleep qualify? Would fixing what she wants for breakfast and dinner on the weekend qualify? Would working 18 hour days 7 days/week on a construction project to keep a job you hate that pays a lot of money so the family has a roof over their head qualify? Would taking her on trips to places in the world she wants to visit with First Class airfare, and top end hotel qualify? See none of these have anything to do with sex. I have done all of that and more during out marriage because I LOVE my wife for nearly twice the years you have been married. 

And, we have swapped the whole "LD/HD" dynamic several times in our lifetime together. * AND*, whoever was on the LD side didn't get an attitude about taking care of the other, because we LOVE one another. We made an effort. And what I see from most of the men here, is effort is all they are really expecting. I am sure, when my wife was HD relative to me, if I had told her to go pound sand, the result would not have been good because by doing that I would be telling her she wasn't important to me.

This is proly a T/J, but couldnt resist sorry


----------



## FloridaGuy1

Rus47 said:


> So what in your mind would be tangible? Would feeding and diapering each of four kids at night so the wife can get some sleep qualify? Would fixing what she wants for breakfast and dinner on the weekend qualify? Would working 18 hour days 7 days/week on a construction project to keep a job you hate that pays a lot of money so the family has a roof over their head qualify? Would taking her on trips to places in the world she wants to visit with First Class airfare, and top end hotel qualify? See none of these have anything to do with sex. I have done all of that and more during out marriage because I LOVE my wife for nearly twice the years you have been married.
> 
> And, we have swapped the whole "LD/HD" dynamic several times in our lifetime together. * AND*, whoever was on the LD side didn't get an attitude about taking care of the other, because we LOVE one another. We made an effort. And what I see from most of the men here, is effort is all they are really expecting. I am sure, when my wife was HD relative to me, if I had told her to go pound sand, the result would not have been good because by doing that I would be telling her she wasn't important to me.
> 
> This is proly a T/J, but couldnt resist sorry


I guess the threshold is also based on how many times the LD partner says "No"? Every so often is understandble but I guess when the "No's" outweight the "Yes's" it can become a point of contention.

Just my thinking of course.


----------



## Anastasia6

Rus47 said:


> So what in your mind would be tangible? Would feeding and diapering each of four kids at night so the wife can get some sleep qualify? Would fixing what she wants for breakfast and dinner on the weekend qualify? Would working 18 hour days 7 days/week on a construction project to keep a job you hate that pays a lot of money so the family has a roof over their head qualify? Would taking her on trips to places in the world she wants to visit with First Class airfare, and top end hotel qualify? See none of these have anything to do with sex. I have done all of that and more during out marriage because I LOVE my wife for nearly twice the years you have been married.
> 
> And, we have swapped the whole "LD/HD" dynamic several times in our lifetime together. * AND*, whoever was on the LD side didn't get an attitude about taking care of the other, because we LOVE one another. We made an effort. And what I see from most of the men here, is effort is all they are really expecting. I am sure, when my wife was HD relative to me, if I had told her to go pound sand, the result would not have been good because by doing that I would be telling her she wasn't important to me.
> 
> This is proly a T/J, but couldnt resist sorry


This seems like both a defensive and attacking post.

I feel it’s more rhetorical then a genuine inquiry.


----------



## DownButNotOut

Anastasia6 said:


> I think many women are sincere when they communicate.


I think in the moment that is very true. But at what point does it become a string of excuses?

"I can't when the house is dirty" - so hubby cleans then
"I can't when I have to plan supper" - so hubby cooks then
"I can't when I have to deal with the kids at night" - so hubby does baths and bedtimes then
"I can't when there is still laundry" - so hubby does that too then
"I can't when ..." doesn't seem to end.

A common theme in the sexless thread on TAM is that "choreplay" doesn't work. 

Listening is well and good. But a man's instinct is also to hear that, and try to fix the problem. So they address the immediate complaint, and are then confused and frustrated that nothing changed. The end result is often a man chasing an ever-moving goal in the vain hope that his needs will be met. At some point the LD partner has to also listen and realize the damage they are doing to the person they profess to love.


----------



## Anastasia6

DownButNotOut said:


> I think in the moment that is very true. But at what point does it become a string of excuses?
> 
> "I can't when the house is dirty" - so hubby cleans then
> "I can't when I have to plan supper" - so hubby cooks then
> "I can't when I have to deal with the kids at night" - so hubby does baths and bedtimes then
> "I can't when there is still laundry" - so hubby does that too then
> "I can't when ..." doesn't seem to end.
> 
> A common theme in the sexless thread on TAM is that "choreplay" doesn't work.
> 
> Listening is well and good. But a man's instinct is also to hear that, and try to fix the problem. So they address the immediate complaint, and are then confused and frustrated that nothing changed. The end result is often a man chasing an ever-moving goal in the vain hope that his needs will be met. At some point the LD partner has to also listen and realize the damage they are doing to the person they profess to love.


I didn't come to defend all of woman kind. Floridaguy asked for more women's perspective I gave mine.

And the chore play doesn't work. Well that is heavily dependent on the situation. A woman who is overwhelmed and has a husband who isn't doing much then helping out can help out. But if a man has communicated through words and action that he doesn't care about his wife or their house or their children because she should be doing all those things that's her 'job' cause I work or I make more money. The resentment doesn't fall away with a few chores. Lots of time the damage has been done by the time people show up here complaining. And also chore play is just another way of saying the only thing i"m interested in is sex. I'll 'help' you so you can have sex with me. That is wildly different than I'm a husband and a father and I'll bath the kids cause well they are my kids and I see it needs to get done. Most of what you are calling chore play is actually covert contracts.

Yes the LD partner should listen and realize there is damage to be done by ignoring the desires of their spouse. But hey we have a thread right here on TAM where a guy was getting it 3x a week and since that wasn't enough for him he was advised to tell her to step it up or divorce. So the LD can never win can they? Why should they even try the way it is presented here. They know it and so many stall and excuse until the kids are older and they are in a better position to stop all together then when the ultimatum comes down they say ok. We had one just last week that did that. Husband came in threatening divorce and wife said ok. Well TAM didn't like that either and was fairly mean to her. So do the husbands want a divorce or do they want a domestic appliance that comes with a sex switch? If divorcing because the LD doesn't meet the HD's most important all encompassing need then shouldn't TAM have rejoiced when the LD readily agreed to set the poor guy free?


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## 346745

DownButNotOut said:


> I think in the moment that is very true. But at what point does it become a string of excuses?
> 
> "I can't when the house is dirty" - so hubby cleans then
> "I can't when I have to plan supper" - so hubby cooks then
> "I can't when I have to deal with the kids at night" - so hubby does baths and bedtimes then
> "I can't when there is still laundry" - so hubby does that too then
> "I can't when ..." doesn't seem to end.
> 
> A common theme in the sexless thread on TAM is that "choreplay" doesn't work.
> 
> Listening is well and good. But a man's instinct is also to hear that, and try to fix the problem. So they address the immediate complaint, and are then confused and frustrated that nothing changed. The end result is often a man chasing an ever-moving goal in the vain hope that his needs will be met. At some point the LD partner has to also listen and realize the damage they are doing to the person they profess to love.


I bought into the idea that doing more around the house would lead to more fun in the bedroom. So I upped the ante in kitchen, laundry, cleaning, etc., Frequency decreased. Thankfully, we've reached an understanding. Much improved.


----------



## Rus47

Anastasia6 said:


> I didn't come to defend all of woman kind. Floridaguy asked for more women's perspective I gave mine.
> 
> And the chore play doesn't work. Well that is heavily dependent on the situation. A woman who is overwhelmed and has a husband who isn't doing much then helping out can help out. But if a man has communicated through words and action that he doesn't care about his wife or their house or their children because she should be doing all those things that's her 'job' cause I work or I make more money. The resentment doesn't fall away with a few chores. Lots of time the damage has been done by the time people show up here complaining. And also chore play is just another way of saying the only thing i"m interested in is sex. I'll 'help' you so you can have sex with me. That is wildly different than I'm a husband and a father and I'll bath the kids cause well they are my kids and I see it needs to get done. Most of what you are calling chore play is actually covert contracts.
> 
> Yes the LD partner should listen and realize there is damage to be done by ignoring the desires of their spouse. But hey we have a thread right here on TAM where a guy was getting it 3x a week and since that wasn't enough for him he was advised to tell her to step it up or divorce. So the LD can never win can they? Why should they even try the way it is presented here. They know it and so many stall and excuse until the kids are older and they are in a better position to stop all together then when the ultimatum comes down they say ok. We had one just last week that did that. Husband came in threatening divorce and wife said ok. Well TAM didn't like that either and was fairly mean to her. So do the husbands want a divorce or do they want a domestic appliance that comes with a sex switch? If divorcing because the LD doesn't meet the HD's most important all encompassing need then shouldn't TAM have rejoiced when the LD readily agreed to set the poor guy free?


Sounds defensive to me


----------



## Anastasia6

Rus47 said:


> Sounds defensive to me


@FloridaGuy1 and here's why you won't get many other women to try to have an actual discussion about the issue.

Childish.


----------



## In Absentia

Anastasia6 said:


> And so did you do the standard have sex with me or else?


no, I tried to talk to her, then I got angry, did the 180 and at the end I asked for a divorce. By that time she had detached. She obviously thought I was a despicable human being. Despite all of that, she decided to give me duty sex to keep the family together. The thing is, she enjoyed sex and she told me that she loved me after sex, so when she stopped our sex life, I was confused... I didn't understand. But her fear of me getting angry about sex was stronger than the pleasure she got out of it. So, when she could, she got out of it. A total mess.
I just wish I understood the severity of her mental issues then, but she was very secretive about them. Still, I got it wrong because sex was too important for me. Not just sex, the deeper connection it came with it. But I was naive.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I guess the threshold is also based on how many times the LD partner says "No"? Every so often is understandble but I guess when the "No's" outweight the "Yes's" it can become a point of contention.


This isn't a good measure. Say the LD partner wants it 3x a week and the HD wants it every day. If the HD partner tries to go for it ten times a day every day, then there are going to be something like a couple dozen "no's" for every "yes."

Sex is always going to be limited by the LD person. Unwanted sex is assault, whether it's gained by whining (sulking and being unpleasant to be around unless sex is achieved), coercion (I did the dishes, now you do the sexing) or threats (more sex or it's divorce). So going into a marriage, both partners should be ready for the LD partner to control the frequency. But there are no doubt loving things the HD partner can do to increase it, like pulling their weight around the household chores and finances, understanding how to manipulate responsive desire, staying fit/attractive and confident, etc.


----------



## DownButNotOut

Anastasia6 said:


> Yes the LD partner should listen and realize there is damage to be done by ignoring the desires of their spouse.


I notice that you softened the word "need" into "desire". I think this is a common thing. Men don't "desire" sex so much as it is an evolutionary need. Testosterone is a relentless taskmaster.

I didn't cast any of that as a covert contract. The assumption is the husband was asking her how to get more frequent sex, and those things I listed are commonly the reply. When that conversation happens, men will process it as "see problem, fix problem". When fixing the stated problem fails to get the desired result what is the man to think? His first reaction will be something like "You said if the house was clean there would be more sex. I fixed your problem, why is my problem not improving". 

At the end of the day, the LD partner has to asses her priorities. Is her marriage, and her husband's well-being important enough to work on their sex discrepancy or not? Like I said earlier, withholding sex is going to either break her marriage or break her man.


----------



## uphillbattle

Anastasia6 said:


> and here's why you won't get many other women to try to have an actual discussion about the issue.
> 
> Childish.


I really do appreciate all perspectives on this subject. The hostility is quite overboard sometimes. I think that people seem to be so entrenched in their position that they refuse to move from it even a little bit and it causes tempers to flair and people to double down on their position. I wish more people would worry less on how to respond and more on taking in and actually thinking about opinions that don't match their own.


----------



## Anastasia6

DownButNotOut said:


> I notice that you softened the word "need" into "desire". I think this is a common thing. Men don't "desire" sex so much as it is an evolutionary need. Testosterone is a relentless taskmaster.
> 
> I didn't cast any of that as a covert contract. The assumption is the husband was asking her how to get more frequent sex, and those things I listed are commonly the reply. When that conversation happens, men will process it as "see problem, fix problem". When fixing the stated problem fails to get the desired result what is the man to think? His first reaction will be something like "You said if the house was clean there would be more sex. I fixed your problem, why is my problem not improving".
> 
> At the end of the day, the LD partner has to asses her priorities. Is her marriage, and her husband's well-being important enough to work on their sex discrepancy or not? Like I said earlier, withholding sex is going to either break her marriage or break her man.


And I don't see sex 7 times a week as a need. You don't die from having sex 2 times a week. Yes it is a desire. Just like a woman desires sex or an intimate connnection. I don't know that I can or want to defend the wife in your made up example. He is communicating though you are still simply communicating that you care about sex. You haven't actually talked about his other actions or his connection with her. So I"m sure in this example the husband is perfect. He listens when she talks, he doesn't mock her to liking a TV show or a cat. He is always cheerful when he helps around the house and he doesn't pout like a ***** when he doesn't get sex. He is genuinely engaged and caring and shows her that in action and deed. 

She is simply withholding to retain power and hurt him with his testosterone. She never wanted a true partner in life and instead got a disappointing porn addict who expected her to put on a right good show or divorce. She has no reason to let her insecurities reel their ugly head or to feel less than. She's just a ***** and he should divorce her. 

Happy?


----------



## Anastasia6

uphillbattle said:


> I really do appreciate all perspectives on this subject. The hostility is quite overboard sometimes. I think that people seem to be so entrenched in their position that they refuse to move from it even a little bit and it causes tempers to flair and people to double down on their position. I wish more people would worry less on how to respond and more on taking in and actually thinking about opinions that don't match their own.


This site is very one sided most times and I think runs off the other perspectives. That makes it hard for those seeking any truth other than the standard 'truth' hard to find.

Take this thread for example. I'm actually surprised the few woman we have here that usually show up and say yes the HD should have it as much as they want and I"m a woman so both sides agree haven't showed up. I know why most the women haven't showed.

I knew what was going to happen when I posted. 

I think there are solutions for some of these problems but this site won't get there because burn the witch, right.

It's fine. I guess I was avoiding the mound of work I have to do so decided to respond mostly for Floridaguy. I know he's been having trouble and he still sometimes seems to be searching for answers.

The truth is there are woman who withhold on purpose, there are those that don't want sex. I can't defend them. I think there are way more women and men that entered into marriage and just never really made a union. I also guess that means there may not be solutions for many because it was a house of sand to begin with.


----------



## ElwoodPDowd

Anastasia6 said:


> The truth is there are woman who withhold on purpose, there are those that don't want sex.


You forgot the women who are having sex with someone else and pretending to be LD to their husband.


----------



## uphillbattle

Anastasia6 said:


> This site is very one sided most times and I think runs off the other perspectives. That makes it hard for those seeking any truth other than the standard 'truth' hard to find.
> 
> Take this thread for example. I'm actually surprised the few woman we have here that usually show up and say yes the HD should have it as much as they want and I"m a woman so both sides agree haven't showed up. I know why most the women haven't showed.
> 
> I knew what was going to happen when I posted.
> 
> I think there are solutions for some of these problems but this site won't get there because burn the witch, right.
> 
> It's fine. I guess I was avoiding the mound of work I have to do so decided to respond mostly for Floridaguy. I know he's been having trouble and he still sometimes seems to be searching for answers.
> 
> The truth is there are woman who withhold on purpose, there are those that don't want sex. I can't defend them. I think there are way more women and men that entered into marriage and just never really made a union. I also guess that means there may not be solutions for many because it was a house of sand to begin with.


Meh, the problem with the whole mob is the LD spouse will have far less representation because many just don't see it as a problem. No problem, then why will I go on a message board to help find solutions?
The complete dismissal of how you feel by your spouse can reduce many men to a little pile of mush. It did me. I was a confident person before that point and my wife would have been one of the first on here to say the obligatory "no way my man would act like that". It's no fun. 
The big problem swinging the other way is the lack of ANY compromise. People change over time and it's the failure of a couple to adapt to that change that is doomed to failure.


----------



## DownButNotOut

Anastasia6 said:


> And I don't see sex 7 times a week as a need. You don't die from having sex 2 times a week. Yes it is a desire. Just like a woman desires sex or an intimate connnection. I don't know that I can or want to defend the wife in your made up example. He is communicating though you are still simply communicating that you care about sex. You haven't actually talked about his other actions or his connection with her. So I"m sure in this example the husband is perfect. He listens when she talks, he doesn't mock her to liking a TV show or a cat. He is always cheerful when he helps around the house and he doesn't pout like a *** when he doesn't get sex. He is genuinely engaged and caring and shows her that in action and deed.
> 
> She is simply withholding to retain power and hurt him with his testosterone. She never wanted a true partner in life and instead got a disappointing porn addict who expected her to put on a right good show or divorce. She has no reason to let her insecurities reel their ugly head or to feel less than. She's just a *** and he should divorce her.
> 
> Happy?


I'm not going to wrangle in hyperbole. Far from hypothetical, if you peruse the sexless marriage threads you'll see that list pop up frequently. Sometimes it is even a part of the marriage counseling. Invariably it never works. As soon as the husband tries to follow it, the goalposts move and he is in a cycle of chasing an always moving goal. Yes, often the wife will use some variation of "you just did [that] for sex". 

You don't see sex as a need because you are female. You don't feel that pull of testosterone that men do. I'm telling you a male perspective. Wasn't one of your big things that women honestly communicate their needs but the men aren't listening? I'm communicating that yes sex is in fact a need for men.


----------



## Anastasia6

ElwoodPDowd said:


> You forgot the women who are having sex with someone else and pretending to be LD to their husband.


No I didn't forget them because they obviously are in the wrong. That isn't a problem that can be fixed. How many times do I have to say I'm not trying to defend all women. Some are just plain wrong.

Ok I've played long enough. I'm out.


----------



## FloridaGuy1

Anastasia6 said:


> This site is very one sided most times and I think runs off the other perspectives. That makes it hard for those seeking any truth other than the standard 'truth' hard to find.
> 
> Take this thread for example. I'm actually surprised the few woman we have here that usually show up and say yes the HD should have it as much as they want and I"m a woman so both sides agree haven't showed up. I know why most the women haven't showed.
> 
> I knew what was going to happen when I posted.
> 
> I think there are solutions for some of these problems but this site won't get there because burn the witch, right.
> 
> It's fine. I guess I was avoiding the mound of work I have to do so decided to respond mostly for Floridaguy. I know he's been having trouble and he still sometimes seems to be searching for answers.
> 
> The truth is there are woman who withhold on purpose, there are those that don't want sex. I can't defend them. I think there are way more women and men that entered into marriage and just never really made a union. I also guess that means there may not be solutions for many because it was a house of sand to begin with.


And I thank you for your input @*Anastasia6 *


----------



## DownByTheRiver

DownButNotOut said:


> I'm not going to wrangle in hyperbole. Far from hypothetical, if you peruse the sexless marriage threads you'll see that list pop up frequently. Sometimes it is even a part of the marriage counseling. Invariably it never works. As soon as the husband tries to follow it, the goalposts move and he is in a cycle of chasing an always moving goal. Yes, often the wife will use some variation of "you just did [that] for sex".
> 
> You don't see sex as a need because you are female. You don't feel that pull of testosterone that men do. I'm telling you a male perspective. Wasn't one of your big things that women honestly communicate their needs but the men aren't listening? I'm communicating that yes sex is in fact a need for men.


I don't accept your premise because I know a lot of men who have control over themselves, but even if I did accept it, I don't see why that should be anyone's problem but his own.


----------



## DownButNotOut

DownByTheRiver said:


> I don't accept your premise because I know a lot of men who have control over themselves, but even if I did accept it, I don't see why that should be anyone's problem but his own.


What does control have to do with it? A man can also choose to fast but the hunger is still there. I'm talking about the hunger.

Sure it's his problem. But in a marriage with this problem present, if you take that approach you will either destroy your marriage, or destroy your husband. If you're fine with that, well then I don't know what to tell you.


----------



## DudeInProgress

DownByTheRiver said:


> Just remember, your d*** is not as important to anyone as it is to you. That would be a start.


It must be really hard being that bitter (at least that’s as you often come across).


----------



## LisaDiane

Anastasia6 said:


> Take this thread for example. I'm actually surprised the few woman we have here that usually show up and say yes the HD should have it as much as they want and I"m a woman so both sides agree haven't showed up. *I know why most the women haven't showed.*
> 
> I knew what was going to happen when I posted.


I'm curious to know why you think most of the HD women haven't posted here.


----------



## uphillbattle

DownByTheRiver said:


> *I don't see why that should be anyone's problem but his own.*


Because when one person has a problem in a marriage than both should.


----------



## uphillbattle

DudeInProgress said:


> It must be really hard being that bitter (at least that’s as you often come across).


Do you have any idea how bitter most of the HD men come across?


----------



## Anastasia6

LisaDiane said:


> I'm curious to know why you think most of the HD women haven't posted here.


LOL I was saying I know why most the women who aren't high drive haven't posted here. I expect the high drives to show up and reinforce the sex is everything mantra.


----------



## DudeInProgress

uphillbattle said:


> Do you have any idea how bitter most of the HD men come across?


I think you mistakenly equate whiny men who want more sex from their wives but don’t know how to get it (or can’t/won’t do what’s necessary), and weak MGTOW types, with HD men. Not the case.

HD men who know how to manage their lives and relationships/marriages aren’t bitter at all.


----------



## ElwoodPDowd

DudeInProgress said:


> HD men who know how to manage their lives and relationships/marriages aren’t bitter at all.


Yep, we bang other women on the side to fill in the gaps our wives leave us.
It's quite obvious really, unless to allow your wife to totally control your access to sex.


----------



## AGoodFlogging

uphillbattle said:


> Do you have any idea how bitter most of the HD men come across?


Well, a subset of HD men who are unhappy with their marriages, can't make any real change to their situation and post on TAM about it, of course.


----------



## AGoodFlogging

DownByTheRiver said:


> I don't see why that should be anyone's problem but his own.


This is why men in this situation should not rely on their wives doing anything about it unprovoked. This may well be what she believes and is certainly what she will be told by other women.

As such, men need to act and be prepared to put the relationship at risk. This is what I did, it worked, but it brought my marriage close to the edge.

It's also worth pointing out that from the opinion above you can really understand what communication with your LD partner is for in these situations. In my opinion, communication can't be used to create desire in your partner, or use the logical power of your argument to get more sex or even understanding from them. All communication can do when things are really bad (i.e. she doesn't believe this is her problem at all) is establish clearly with them what your feelings and boundaries are. It took me a long time to figure this out. Things got a lot more real when my communication flipped from convincing her to try and have sex with me to simply stating that I was unhappy and that things needed to change if our marriage was to have a future and then showing her, not by being vindictive, but by just focussing more on myself and my children and less on her. It changed a power dynamic and luckily for me, she came to the table and then we really talked about what was wrong in our marriage and how we can work together to fix it. Then the hard work begins, but it is worth it! Of course it could also have easily ended in separation and divorce, but I think that is the point.


----------



## In Absentia

DownByTheRiver said:


> I don't accept your premise because I know a lot of men who have control over themselves, but even if I did accept it, I don't see why that should be anyone's problem but his own.


Well, if one spouse has a problem, it tends to become a couple's problem. Of course, it all depends. My idea of a good sex life in my 40s was good quality sex once a week. We compromised at twice a month after threats of divorce and some very dark years for me, when I decided to take anti-depressants to deal with it. I killed my libido. I don't think my wife ever saw what the whole situation was doing to me. But it wasn't her fault. She was busy with her own problems. All of this to say that, I do get the testosterone urges, but we, as men, should be able to control it and rationalise it. So, I agree with you there. But it's not easy. Of course, with the premise that if we are getting a decent frequency (and I'm not talking about twice a day).


----------



## LisaDiane

Anastasia6 said:


> I expect the high drives to show up and reinforce the sex is everything mantra.


This sounds very condescending.


----------



## In Absentia

LisaDiane said:


> This sounds very condescending.


well, it does happen...


----------



## BigDaddyNY

DownByTheRiver said:


> I don't accept your premise because I know a lot of men who have control over themselves, but even if I did accept it, I don't see why that should be anyone's problem but his own.


You know lots of men who have control over themselves? You have never been married. I'm not even sure if you've ever been in a long term relationship. How can you know all these men have "control over themselves" the way you think if you have not been in a long term sexual relationship with them? 

So you are a women, no track record of marriage, and probably no LTR, but you are going to tell men that their sexual needs are their own problem based on your vast exposure to all those men you "know" with self control. You can't even recognize that a problem for one spouse is a problem for both spouses. It is a team effort. I would argue you are extraordinarily oblivious to what a man's needs are as well as what level of teamwork a marriage requires in order to be successful and have two happy partners.


----------



## backhand

BigDaddyNY said:


> @backhand How did things go with your wife and the hotel threat? Are you doing okay?


Thanks for asking. I'm doing well (I will tell a really weird story below about the latest in my life). I just want to say thanks again to everyone who contributed to this thread and its focus...I've learned a lot (I'm obviously not a TAM regular).

I don't believe in woo-woo, but the last 24 hours, well, have been crazy...here goes. Yesterday afternoon, totally out of the blue, I got a phone call from an old girlfriend (broke up with her when I met my wife...and I'll admit I thought a little about the former girlfriend, again out of the blue, recently when getting frustrated with my wife, but that's another thread). Of course, the sex with my former girlfriend at that age (early 20s) was wonderful (her drive matched mine) and we also shared many good times doing so many other things together. (So why did I leave my former girlfriend for the woman who would become my wife? I had even a greater sexual attraction to my wife and I instinctively just knew that we would share great times together doing other things). No doubt...I'm 100% certain I made the right choice.

I had only talked once on the phone to my former girlfriend during the last 35 years (about 20 years ago she called me...pleasantries exchanged...my wife was in the room). Yesterday (my wife wasn't around), bottom line, my former girlfriend told me about her life (divorced within the last 5 years (husband was absent traveling the world on business) but happy and "successful" in every other way)...yet she told me she had never found real love and sexual fulfillment in any other man except me (hard to believe). I was the "love of her life"...she talked of us having a great sex life together again...you get the picture. Red flags everywhere, and no way I'm leaving my wife, but aside from the sex thing, I'll just say this out loud...I know that my former girlfriend could love me and care for me in all respects in ways that my very independent wife never could or want to.

Back to yesterday's drama...the idiot part of me wanted to listen (I'll spare you those thoughts), but the smart part of me knew I had to get off the phone and dismiss where this conversation could lead. I was kind to my former girlfriend...told her how great I thought some of her qualities were and thanked her for being such an important part of my life, etc., and said I was still fully married/committed (and of course, never said anything but positive things about my wife).

So after starting this thread with related subject matter (and also not being enamored with some of my wife's recent actions...again, that's another thread)...I have the real life situation where the sex with my wife, all things considered, is okay, and assuming my former girlfriend could deliver on her scenarios (I am sure she could), lead the rest of my life with presumably a great sex life and an otherwise compatible mate who would show her deep love for me in other ways (and just to continue with the fantasy...with a pivotally big assumption on the sex part...that we both remained healthy for awhile).

In brief, with my wife and I never tire of each other's company in just about everything that we do together even after all of these years, as well as my adult children to consider (they'd be very disappointed), it's not even a close call to tempt me. Told my wife about the conversation (e.g., told her my former girlfriend said she still loved me but didn't go into the sex stuff). I had no thought of my wife being one bit jealous in any way...as explained before, she is just wired differently than most people (she has an advanced academic degree and good intuition, but, lol, just doesn't care about certain things). Her responses were predictably understated, "...I'm glad she has had a good life and is doing okay." At most, it is possible that she laughed to herself and thought a little about Fatal Attraction scenarios.

I know it wasn't in her head when I told her about the phone call, but my wife, who gets bored very easily, also knows that she could immediately have one of her many male admirers as a boyfriend or potential spouse if I were to leave the picture. Not going to waste time on this, but I'll say it out loud since it relates to this thread: I am just a tiny, tiny bit curious to know if she would be motivated to lift her sex game for a new partner. 

After the finality of the call, I don't expect to hear from my former girlfriend again (she continues to live 2000+ miles away). What a day.


----------



## CountryMike

backhand said:


> Thanks for asking. I'm doing well (I will tell a really weird story below about the latest in my life). I just want to say thanks again to everyone who contributed to this thread and its focus...I've learned a lot (I'm obviously not a TAM regular).
> 
> I don't believe in woo-woo, but the last 24 hours, well, have been crazy...here goes. Yesterday afternoon, totally out of the blue, I got a phone call from an old girlfriend (broke up with her when I met my wife...and I'll admit I thought a little about the former girlfriend, again out of the blue, recently when getting frustrated with my wife, but that's another thread). Of course, the sex with my former girlfriend at that age (early 20s) was wonderful (her drive matched mine) and we also shared many good times doing so many other things together. (So why did I leave my former girlfriend for the woman who would become my wife? I had even a greater sexual attraction to my wife and I instinctively just knew that we would share great times together doing other things). No doubt...I'm 100% certain I made the right choice.
> 
> I had only talked once on the phone to my former girlfriend during the last 35 years (about 20 years ago she called me...pleasantries exchanged...my wife was in the room). Yesterday (my wife wasn't around), bottom line, my former girlfriend told me about her life (divorced within the last 5 years (husband was absent traveling the world on business) but happy and "successful" in every other way)...yet she told me she had never found real love and sexual fulfillment in any other man except me (hard to believe). I was the "love of her life"...she talked of us having a great sex life together again...you get the picture. Red flags everywhere, and no way I'm leaving my wife, but aside from the sex thing, I'll just say this out loud...I know that my former girlfriend could love me and care for me in all respects in ways that my very independent wife never could or want to.
> 
> Back to yesterday's drama...the idiot part of me wanted to listen (I'll spare you those thoughts), but the smart part of me knew I had to get off the phone and dismiss where this conversation could lead. I was kind to my former girlfriend...told her how great I thought some of her qualities were and thanked her for being such an important part of my life, etc., and said I was still fully married/committed (and of course, never said anything but positive things about my wife).
> 
> So after starting this thread with related subject matter (and also not being enamored with some of my wife's recent actions...again, that's another thread)...I have the real life situation where the sex with my wife, all things considered, is okay, and assuming my former girlfriend could deliver on her scenarios (I am sure she could), lead the rest of my life with presumably a great sex life and an otherwise compatible mate who would show her deep love for me in other ways (and just to continue with the fantasy...with a pivotally big assumption on the sex part...that we both remained healthy for awhile).
> 
> In brief, with my wife and I never tire of each other's company in just about everything that we do together even after all of these years, as well as my adult children to consider (they'd be very disappointed), it's not even a close call to tempt me. Told my wife about the conversation (e.g., told her my former girlfriend said she still loved me but didn't go into the sex stuff). I had no thought of my wife being one bit jealous in any way...as explained before, she is just wired differently than most people (she has an advanced academic degree and good intuition, but, lol, just doesn't care about certain things). Her responses were predictably understated, "...I'm glad she has had a good life and is doing okay." At most, it is possible that she laughed to herself and thought a little about Fatal Attraction scenarios.
> 
> I know it wasn't in her head when I told her about the phone call, but my wife, who gets bored very easily, also knows that she could immediately have one of her many male admirers as a boyfriend or potential spouse if I were to leave the picture. Not going to waste time on this, but I'll say it out loud since it relates to this thread: I am just a tiny, tiny bit curious to know if she would be motivated to lift her sex game for a new partner.
> 
> After the finality of the call, I don't expect to hear from my former girlfriend again (she continues to live 2000+ miles away). What a day.


Just remember no present day older person's ltr real life can compare with idealized sex partner from back in their 20s. All the good is remembered all the bad forgotten. 

And present day to day real life keeps the mundane in front of you which makes the golden memories seem better.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

backhand said:


> Thanks for asking. I'm doing well (I will tell a really weird story below about the latest in my life). I just want to say thanks again to everyone who contributed to this thread and its focus...I've learned a lot (I'm obviously not a TAM regular).
> 
> I don't believe in woo-woo, but the last 24 hours, well, have been crazy...here goes. Yesterday afternoon, totally out of the blue, I got a phone call from an old girlfriend (broke up with her when I met my wife...and I'll admit I thought a little about the former girlfriend, again out of the blue, recently when getting frustrated with my wife, but that's another thread). Of course, the sex with my former girlfriend at that age (early 20s) was wonderful (her drive matched mine) and we also shared many good times doing so many other things together. (So why did I leave my former girlfriend for the woman who would become my wife? I had even a greater sexual attraction to my wife and I instinctively just knew that we would share great times together doing other things). No doubt...I'm 100% certain I made the right choice.
> 
> I had only talked once on the phone to my former girlfriend during the last 35 years (about 20 years ago she called me...pleasantries exchanged...my wife was in the room). Yesterday (my wife wasn't around), bottom line, my former girlfriend told me about her life (divorced within the last 5 years (husband was absent traveling the world on business) but happy and "successful" in every other way)...yet she told me she had never found real love and sexual fulfillment in any other man except me (hard to believe). I was the "love of her life"...she talked of us having a great sex life together again...you get the picture. Red flags everywhere, and no way I'm leaving my wife, but aside from the sex thing, I'll just say this out loud...I know that my former girlfriend could love me and care for me in all respects in ways that my very independent wife never could or want to.
> 
> Back to yesterday's drama...the idiot part of me wanted to listen (I'll spare you those thoughts), but the smart part of me knew I had to get off the phone and dismiss where this conversation could lead. I was kind to my former girlfriend...told her how great I thought some of her qualities were and thanked her for being such an important part of my life, etc., and said I was still fully married/committed (and of course, never said anything but positive things about my wife).
> 
> So after starting this thread with related subject matter (and also not being enamored with some of my wife's recent actions...again, that's another thread)...I have the real life situation where the sex with my wife, all things considered, is okay, and assuming my former girlfriend could deliver on her scenarios (I am sure she could), lead the rest of my life with presumably a great sex life and an otherwise compatible mate who would show her deep love for me in other ways (and just to continue with the fantasy...with a pivotally big assumption on the sex part...that we both remained healthy for awhile).
> 
> In brief, with my wife and I never tire of each other's company in just about everything that we do together even after all of these years, as well as my adult children to consider (they'd be very disappointed), it's not even a close call to tempt me. Told my wife about the conversation (e.g., told her my former girlfriend said she still loved me but didn't go into the sex stuff). I had no thought of my wife being one bit jealous in any way...as explained before, she is just wired differently than most people (she has an advanced academic degree and good intuition, but, lol, just doesn't care about certain things). Her responses were predictably understated, "...I'm glad she has had a good life and is doing okay." At most, it is possible that she laughed to herself and thought a little about Fatal Attraction scenarios.
> 
> I know it wasn't in her head when I told her about the phone call, but my wife, who gets bored very easily, also knows that she could immediately have one of her many male admirers as a boyfriend or potential spouse if I were to leave the picture. Not going to waste time on this, but I'll say it out loud since it relates to this thread: I am just a tiny, tiny bit curious to know if she would be motivated to lift her sex game for a new partner.
> 
> After the finality of the call, I don't expect to hear from my former girlfriend again (she continues to live 2000+ miles away). What a day.


Quite the story there @backhand. If nothing else the call with the old flame should have been a confidence boost. I think it helps put you on more equal footing with your wife, but not sure if she recognizes that or not. I'm really glad to see that everything you wrote here indicates you are an upstanding man. It would have been easy to let that call run away into inappropriate territory. Also great that you talked to your wife about it, very open. 

So I assume she isn't staying in a hotel since you are talking. Is she back to sleeping in the bedroom? I hope the bold action you took is pushing things in the right direction for you.


----------



## Openminded

Your wife would likely up her sex game for a new partner for a brief period but then boredom with the same partner would set in again and she would revert. That’s true for a number of women, unfortunately. Your ex was obviously fishing. Good thing you decided to pass.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Sorry I got confused. @backhand you made a hotel threat? There is another thread where a guy’s wife took him up on a hotel threat, that’s not you right?

I had to go back and read your stuff but you’re the pickleball guy IIRC.


----------



## In Absentia

ccpowerslave said:


> I had to go back and read your stuff but you’re the pickleball guy IIRC.


Indeed he is...


----------



## Anastasia6

BigDaddyNY said:


> Quite the story there @backhand. If nothing else the call with the old flame should have been a confidence boost. I think it helps put you on more equal footing with your wife, but not sure if she recognizes that or not. I'm really glad to see that everything you wrote here indicates you are an upstanding man. It would have been easy to let that call run away into inappropriate territory. Also great that you talked to your wife about it, very open.
> 
> So I assume she isn't staying in a hotel since you are talking. Is she back to sleeping in the bedroom? I hope the bold action you took is pushing things in the right direction for you.


Except talking sex with an old flame is Inappropriate territory. He did and I'm sure he wouldn't be too happy if his wife let some man drone on about what good sex they would have or have had.

How many men here would be ok if their wife talked with an old sexual relationship and let the man say how much he liked ****ing her and all the position they would do and such if they got back together?????

WTF?


----------



## Livvie

In Absentia said:


> Indeed he is...


Pickleball 😀

Who knew? I had never heard of it. The things you learn on this forum....


----------



## ElwoodPDowd

Anastasia6 said:


> How many men here would be ok if their wife talked with an old sexual relationship and let the man say how much he liked ****ing her and all the position they would do and such if they got back together?????


I doubt I'd be attracted to any woman I banged 30+ years back.
Recurrent theme on this forum of people in their 50s+ being jealous of other old folk.
Get new younger lovers, stop obsessing on old people with wrinkly skin and sagging bodies.


----------



## Livvie

ElwoodPDowd said:


> I doubt I'd be attracted to any woman I banged 30+ years back.
> Recurrent theme on this forum of people in their 50s+ being jealous of other old folk.
> Get new younger lovers, stop obsessing on old people with wrinkly skin and sagging bodies.


Isn't the person getting "new younger lovers" probably the one who is old and has wrinkly skin and a sagging body? 🤔 Ick.

Lots of attractive, young people who are high quality will want another attractive, young lover. Not an old dude. 

Also, believe it or not, some men value things other than physical traits.


----------



## In Absentia

Livvie said:


> Isn't the person getting "new younger lovers" probably the one who is old and has wrinkly skin and a sagging body? 🤔 Ick.


Yes, but everything with @ElwoodPDowd is a trade...


----------



## ccpowerslave

It’s not surprising to me that many younger women want a 50 year old man that is in good physical shape with a well established career. If you think about it, it makes perfect sense.

<cough>


----------



## BigDaddyNY

ccpowerslave said:


> Sorry I got confused. @backhand you made a hotel threat? There is another thread where a guy’s wife took him up on a hotel threat, that’s not you right?
> 
> I had to go back and read your stuff but you’re the pickleball guy IIRC.


No hotel threat, that was my mistake. Different poster, somewhat similar situation. But he is indeed the pickleball guy.


----------



## backhand

Anastasia6 said:


> Except talking sex with an old flame is Inappropriate territory. He did and I'm sure he wouldn't be too happy if his wife let some man drone on about what good sex they would have or have had.
> 
> How many men here would be ok if their wife talked with an old sexual relationship and let the man say how much he liked ****ing her and all the position they would do and such if they got back together?????
> 
> WTF?


Wow. Relax. I wrote hurriedly this morning and, lol, don't have a transcript of the call. What I was trying to convey was that she talked about the love and sex aspect and I then went on to change the subject by telling her about her great qualities and my committed, longstanding marriage. Enough said.


----------



## Anastasia6

backhand said:


> Wow. Relax. I wrote hurriedly this morning and, lol, don't have a transcript of the call. What I was trying to convey was that she talked about the love and sex aspect and I then went on to change the subject by telling her about her great qualities and my committed, longstanding marriage. Enough said.


And so how long did this conversation go on?

And would you be ok with your wife doing the same?

It would have exceeded the boundaries on my marriage but each is different perhaps yours is a lot more open.

Also note that not being jealous isn't the same as a boundary


----------



## backhand

BigDaddyNY said:


> No hotel threat, that was my mistake. Different poster, somewhat similar situation. But he is indeed the pickleball guy.


Yes, no "hotel threat" in my case.


----------



## DownButNotOut

Livvie said:


> Isn't the person getting "new younger lovers" probably the one who is old and has wrinkly skin and a sagging body? 🤔 Ick.
> 
> Lots of attractive, young people who are high quality will want another attractive, young lover. Not an old dude.
> 
> *Also, believe it or not, some men value things other than physical traits.*


Aww. Some men will profess to just about anything to get access to those physical traits.


----------



## backhand

Anastasia6 said:


> And so how long did this conversation go on?
> 
> And would you be ok with your wife doing the same?
> 
> It would have exceeded the boundaries on my marriage but each is different perhaps yours is a lot more open.
> 
> Also note that not being jealous isn't the same as a boundary


Fwiw, less than 10 minutes (most of it was her telling me about her life). 

I'd be fine with my wife doing the same...having a catchup conversation with an old flame that started okay and then when the wheels started to come off, veer away and dismiss it. Sheesh, I'll admit that I could have reread and edited what I wrote this morning, but I also wanted to get it out there, warts and all.


----------



## Livvie

ccpowerslave said:


> It’s not surprising to me that many younger women want a 50 year old man that is in good physical shape with a well established career. If you think about it, it makes perfect sense.
> 
> <cough>


Cough.

When I was in my forties (and also now) I would have been interested in a 50 year old man. I find 7 to 10 years older is probably my max older range though. 

When I was in my thirties I would NOT have been interested in a 50 year old man to partner with in the long term. 

What's wrong with dating in your own age range? I don't get the perpetual comments from men about having to date _much_ younger. Men.... what's wrong with your own age? Do you hate yourself and your age that much

I don't know if anyone can relate, but I'm generation X. Throughout my life I have found that I relate more intimately generally (which probably translates into greater sexual intimacy) to other gen xers.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Anastasia6 said:


> And so how long did this conversation go on?
> 
> And would you be ok with your wife doing the same?
> 
> It would have exceeded the boundaries on my marriage but each is different perhaps yours is a lot more open.
> 
> Also note that not being jealous isn't the same as a boundary


Sounds like he did everything right. The the ex GF called him, the call was relatively short (10 minutes), the love and sex talk all came from her, he changed the subject when it got uncomfortable, he reiterated his commitment to his wife and marriage then he told his wife about it. If it were your husband how would you have wanted him to handle it differently?


----------



## ccpowerslave

Livvie said:


> Cough.
> 
> When I was in my forties (and also now) I would have been interested in a 50 year old man. I find 7 to 10 years older is probably my max older range though.
> 
> When I was in my thirties I would NOT have been interested in a 50 year old man to partner with in the long term.
> 
> What's wrong with dating in your own age range? I don't get the perpetual comments from men about having to date _much_ younger. Men.... what's wrong with your own age? Do you hate yourself and your age that much
> 
> I don't know if anyone can relate, but I'm generation X. Throughout my life I have found that I relate more intimately generally (which probably translates into greater sexual intimacy) to other gen xers.


I was just kidding.

My wife is a year and a half younger. To me that feels about right. 

I agree 100% that if you’re looking for a companion in life and not just a sex partner it would be preferable to have someone at or near your own age for the many reasons you mention.


----------



## AGoodFlogging

Livvie said:


> What's wrong with dating in your own age range? I don't get the perpetual comments from men about having to date _much_ younger. Men.... what's wrong with your own age? Do you hate yourself and your age that much


Many men do date in their own age range.

However, the reality is that there are plenty of younger women who will consider an older man presumably due to financial and experience reasons I'm guessing. Fewer men feel the same about older women I'm afraid - if there were more then more women would do it too, nothing to do with hating yourself.


----------



## Anastasia6

AGoodFlogging said:


> Many men do date in their own age range.
> 
> However, the reality is that there are plenty of younger women who will consider an older man presumably due to financial and experience reasons I'm guessing. Fewer men feel the same about older women I'm afraid - if there were more then more women would do it too, nothing to do with hating yourself.


I wouldn't date 10 or 15years younger. They are like little boys to me. Ick.
I know when a good looking new employee started one time at my old place of employment many of the women even the older ones just fell all over themselves. It was embarrassing.


----------



## AGoodFlogging

Anastasia6 said:


> I know when a good looking new employee started one time at my old place of employment many of the women even the older ones just fell all over themselves. It was embarrassing.


Well, kind of proves my point that women are no better than men, they just lack the same opportunities in this instance. I presuming that the young male employee didn't date any of these older women? Yet almost every workplace of any decent size has at least one new young female employee who is in a relationship with an older and often more senior colleague.


----------



## Anastasia6

AGoodFlogging said:


> Well, kind of proves my point that women are no better than men, they just lack the same opportunities in this instance. I presuming that the young male employee didn't date any of these older women? Yet almost every workplace of any decent size has at least one new young female employee who is in a relationship with an older and often more senior colleague.


Yes there are some women that do. I feel out of the people I know it is less for women than men who fall all over themselves for a pretty younger woman. 

No this employee didn't date any co-workers he was married.


----------



## AGoodFlogging

Anastasia6 said:


> Yes there are some women that do. I feel out of the people I know it is less for women than men who fall all over themselves for a pretty younger woman.


Well, the men know they've got more of a chance so more will try. It's a vicious circle I'm afraid.


----------



## Anastasia6

AGoodFlogging said:


> Well, the men know they've got more of a chance so more will try. It's a vicious circle I'm afraid.


I guess. I think it goes back the men value sex and looks over anything else. Many of those pretty young things only want money and security and don't actually 'want' the man or think about the whole future. I mean some do but that's maybe 50%. If both parties are agreeable and they both understand the nature of the relationship more power to them.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Anastasia6 said:


> Many of those pretty young things only want money and security and don't actually 'want' the man or think about the whole future.


Indeed. 

Several times young hot women gave me the time of day it was because of semi-obnoxious displays of wealth.

Ex. wearing a Rolex 116718 at Starbucks and the cashier lady sees a big brick of gold and says, “Wow what a nice watch 👀…”. I always thought she was good looking and she never said a word to me but one day I was wearing that watch and then all the sudden I was interesting enough to talk to.

The oddest one I actually felt bad about was I got out of my car at work and this younger guy I knew was walking in with his girlfriend at the same time. She stopped and goes, “Whoa, that is your car? That’s a nice car. That’s the kind of car a man should have 👀…”. I look at the guy and I’m giving him the, “What the… sorry bro!” look. I felt bad for him.


----------



## CountryMike

AGoodFlogging said:


> Well, the men know they've got more of a chance so more will try. It's a vicious circle I'm afraid.


More of just welcome to real life.


----------



## Anastasia6

Meh. I don't view it as vicious. 
I don't expect to ever be dating again. I'm shocked at how some men express interest in me now. 

I feel like if my husband dies I probably wouldn't ever replace him. But if I did I'd love the fact that the shallow guys my age were already removed from the dating pool. 

I don't view young women as competition. I'm an intereting person, I like sex which we alllll know how important that is, I am a true partner. My husband will be retiring early because I don't just want his money or go out spending it on frivolous things like purses. Of course that mean he doesn't have high fashion wife either. So we match. I'd be looking for my match which wouldn't be the person who matched with the 15 years younger crowd.

It's all good. Honestly though I don't think anyone would be pleasing enough to want to be married again. I love marriage and value it. I'd probably just enjoy other things. I don't even think I'd get a FWB but maybe. I"m responsive desire so while I can desire it 10 times a week right now if I gave it through the proper morning period the libido would be suitably asleep and there probably would be none to properly wake it.


----------



## frenchpaddy

there is important and then there is thinking about it and then there is planing it , 
having sex for men is often , then thinking about sex that is another matter 
about 10 to 20 times in a hour if things are slow 
but if there are other fun things going on we can let slide below that a bit but not for long


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## DownButNotOut

Anastasia6 said:


> I guess. I think it goes back the men value sex and looks over anything else. Many of those pretty young things only want money and security and don't actually 'want' the man or think about the whole future. I mean some do but that's maybe 50%. If both parties are agreeable and they both understand the nature of the relationship more power to them.


Attraction is asymmetrical. The qualities in men that women are attracted to are not the qualities in women that men are attracted to. It's as simple as that.


----------



## Anastasia6

DownButNotOut said:


> Attraction is asymmetrical. The qualities in men that women are attracted to are not the qualities in women that men are attracted to. It's as simple as that.


Agree whole heartedly. I also know that not all men are looking for the same thing. I know several men that sex isn't the highest on their list. I mean every man wants sex but it's the crazy scale right. All women aren't looking for the same thing either. We can only make generalizations. 

I also don't care one whit if any or most males are attracted to me. I pair bond with only one. So I only need one that I find attractive that finds me attractive. Too many people get hung up on everyone 'appreciating' what they have to offer. 

My husband is by far the best man I have ever known and by far the best match for me. So I'm spoiled to the point where I would probably never find anyone good enough after him. That's why we have the deal I get to die first.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

uphillbattle said:


> Because when one person has a problem in a marriage than both should.


There is a problem but it's not the one you are talking about. The problem is that the couple has a sex libido discrepancy. They need to come together as a loving team to fix it. It's not one person's problem that the other one should be responsible for fixing. They both need to see it as a team effort of them vs the problem.

What we usually see here is the HD person talking about the LD person as the problem, and asking how to fix them. The HD person doesn't consider that they could be the problem from the LD person's perspective. Without that team approach, the couple becomes adversarial and then it's very likely the problem will tear them apart.

Bad approach:
HD "She NEVER wants to have sex with me, and I'm miserable! I have needs! She has to change, or she doesn't love me."
LD "He's ALWAYS after my body even when I'm busy, and I'm miserable! I feel used! He has to change, or he doesn't love me." 

Good approach:
One spouse: "Hey, it's really becoming a problem that our libidos are so different. How can we solve this?"
Other spouse: "You're right! We're becoming disconnected. Let's brainstorm what to do about it together."


----------



## Anastasia6

Hopeful Cynic said:


> There is a problem but it's not the one you are talking about. The problem is that the couple has a sex libido discrepancy. They need to come together as a loving team to fix it. It's not one person's problem that the other one should be responsible for fixing. They both need to see it as a team effort of them vs the problem.
> 
> What we usually see here is the HD person talking about the LD person as the problem, and asking how to fix them. The HD person doesn't consider that they could be the problem from the LD person's perspective. Without that team approach, the couple becomes adversarial and then it's very likely the problem will tear them apart.
> 
> Bad approach:
> HD "She NEVER wants to have sex with me, and I'm miserable! I have needs! She has to change, or she doesn't love me."
> LD "He's ALWAYS after my body even when I'm busy, and I'm miserable! I feel used! He has to change, or he doesn't love me."
> 
> Good approach:
> One spouse: "Hey, it's really becoming a problem that our libidos are so different. How can we solve this?"
> Other spouse: "You're right! We're becoming disconnected. Let's brainstorm what to do about it together."


QFT


----------



## uphillbattle

DudeInProgress said:


> There is a problem but it's not the one you are talking about. The problem is that the couple has a sex libido discrepancy. They need to come together as a loving team to fix it. It's not one person's problem that the other one should be responsible for fixing. They both need to see it as a team effort of them vs the problem.
> 
> What we usually see here is the HD person talking about the LD person as the problem, and asking how to fix them. The HD person doesn't consider that they could be the problem from the LD person's perspective. Without that team approach, the couple becomes adversarial and then it's very likely the problem will tear them apart.
> 
> Bad approach:
> HD "She NEVER wants to have sex with me, and I'm miserable! I have needs! She has to change, or she doesn't love me."
> LD "He's ALWAYS after my body even when I'm busy, and I'm miserable! I feel used! He has to change, or he doesn't love me."
> 
> Good approach:
> One spouse: "Hey, it's really becoming a problem that our libidos are so different. How can we solve this?"
> Other spouse: "You're right! We're becoming disconnected. Let's brainstorm what to do about it together."


Is there anything I have said that would make you think that I don't agree with what you just wrote?


----------



## DownButNotOut

Hopeful Cynic said:


> There is a problem but it's not the one you are talking about. The problem is that the couple has a sex libido discrepancy. They need to come together as a loving team to fix it. It's not one person's problem that the other one should be responsible for fixing. They both need to see it as a team effort of them vs the problem.
> 
> What we usually see here is the HD person talking about the LD person as the problem, and asking how to fix them. The HD person doesn't consider that they could be the problem from the LD person's perspective. Without that team approach, the couple becomes adversarial and then it's very likely the problem will tear them apart.
> 
> Bad approach:
> HD "She NEVER wants to have sex with me, and I'm miserable! I have needs! She has to change, or she doesn't love me."
> LD "He's ALWAYS after my body even when I'm busy, and I'm miserable! I feel used! He has to change, or he doesn't love me."
> 
> Good approach:
> One spouse: "Hey, it's really becoming a problem that our libidos are so different. How can we solve this?"
> Other spouse: "You're right! We're becoming disconnected. Let's brainstorm what to do about it together."


Of course the trick is getting the LD to see it as a problem in the first place.


----------



## ElwoodPDowd

Livvie said:


> Lots of attractive, young people who are high quality will want another attractive, young lover. Not an old dude.


I'd define 'high quality' as a woman that's never been alone with a man before her wedding night.
What's your definition?


----------



## uphillbattle

ElwoodPDowd said:


> I'd define 'high quality' as a woman that's never been alone with a man before her wedding night.
> What's your definition?


you love just dive bombing threads while saying rediculus **** just to watch the reactions.


----------



## ElwoodPDowd

uphillbattle said:


> you love just dive bombing threads while saying rediculus **** just to watch the reactions.


@Livvie wants to talk about 'high quality' partners, I'd just like some idea what she had in mind?


----------



## Livvie

ElwoodPDowd said:


> I'd define 'high quality' as a woman that's never been alone with a man before her wedding night.
> What's your definition?


I would absolutely not define high quality as a woman who has never been alone with a man before her wedding night. 

High quality equals intelligent, honest, faithful, good natured, capable, loving, caring, giving, good at compromise, hard working, attractive, healthy, happy, interesting, energetic, monogamous, sexually open with her partner...

Never been alone with a man before her wedding night? I realize there are some societies and/or religions that use that as a measure of value but I am not part of them and I find that measure kind of repugnant. Aside from that, using that as a measure of value in reality reveals nothing about how said woman will act in a relationship. You could end up with a real dud.


----------



## ElwoodPDowd

Livvie said:


> High quality equals intelligent, honest, faithful, good natured, capable, loving, caring, giving, good at compromise, hard working, attractive, healthy, happy, interesting, energetic, monogamous, sexually open with her partner...


I like the idea, but it's a bit of a fantasy IMHO.
I've never met any guy that had a wife like that, although I've met a couple of guys that claimed to have a wife like that (and were completely wrong).


----------



## farsidejunky

ElwoodPDowd said:


> I like the idea, but it's a bit of a fantasy IMHO.
> I've never met any guy that had a wife like that, although I've met a couple of guys that claimed to have a wife like that (and were completely wrong).


Or maybe that is how the aforementioned wives are with their husbands. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## ElwoodPDowd

farsidejunky said:


> Or maybe that is how the aforementioned wives are with their husbands.


From my (limited) experience there are few guys I've encountered whom have any idea what their wives are like (Just look how many guys post here about limited sex in their marriage, and cheating women).
.... and that includes me, my former wife had been cheating on me for 30 years, and I'd have sworn on a stack of bibles that she was the 'quality woman' that @Livvie had described.

Not to mention for the entire 30 years I'd been the 'quality man' every woman is supposed to want. But I've learned different now.


----------



## backhand

BigDaddyNY said:


> Quite the story there @backhand. If nothing else the call with the old flame should have been a confidence boost. I think it helps put you on more equal footing with your wife, but not sure if she recognizes that or not. I'm really glad to see that everything you wrote here indicates you are an upstanding man. It would have been easy to let that call run away into inappropriate territory. Also great that you talked to your wife about it, very open.
> 
> So I assume she isn't staying in a hotel since you are talking. Is she back to sleeping in the bedroom? I hope the bold action you took is pushing things in the right direction for you.


Thanks for the compliment. I think I did the big picture stuff right in a surprise on-the-spot test. I included the commentary, which I'm not proud of, about what was also flashing through my mind (ha, "the devil sitting on my shoulder"). It shows the kind of inner dialogue that can be superficially tempting to a relatively "upstanding" man in my aforementioned ~85% category when he isn't getting all of his physical needs met and/or is unhappy with some of his wife's behavior.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

Livvie said:


> I would absolutely not define high quality as a woman who has never been alone with a man before her wedding night.
> 
> High quality equals intelligent, honest, faithful, good natured, capable, loving, caring, giving, good at compromise, hard working, attractive, healthy, happy, interesting, energetic, monogamous, sexually open with her partner...
> 
> Never been alone with a man before her wedding night? I realize there are some societies and/or religions that use that as a measure of value but I am not part of them and I find that measure kind of repugnant. Aside from that, using that as a measure of value in reality reveals nothing about how said woman will act in a relationship. You could end up with a real dud.





ElwoodPDowd said:


> I like the idea, but it's a bit of a fantasy IMHO.
> I've never met any guy that had a wife like that, although I've met a couple of guys that claimed to have a wife like that (and were completely wrong).





ElwoodPDowd said:


> From my (limited) experience there are few guys I've encountered whom have any idea what their wives are like (Just look how many guys post here about limited sex in their marriage, and cheating women).
> .... and that includes me, my former wife had been cheating on me for 30 years, and I'd have sworn on a stack of bibles that she was the 'quality woman' that @Livvie had described.
> 
> Not to mention for the entire 30 years I'd been the 'quality man' every woman is supposed to want. But I've learned different now.


At the risk of being called one of those guys that is completely wrong, which I'm not, my wife ticks off all of the qualities on LIvvie's list. However, she had been alone with a man before her wedding night, me included  There are plenty of women that were virgins on their wedding night, but are far from good quality people. It is a ridiculous measure of a person.

34 years and I've seen examples of these qualities in her time and time again. Women and men with those qualities are out there. I also think those qualities can feed on each other and can motivate the other spouse when they see their partner exhibiting those qualities.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

backhand said:


> Thanks for the compliment. I think I did the big picture stuff right in a surprise on-the-spot test. I included the commentary, which I'm not proud of, about what was also flashing through my mind (ha, "the devil sitting on my shoulder"). It shows the kind of inner dialogue that can be superficially tempting to a relatively "upstanding" man in my aforementioned ~85% category when he isn't getting all of his physical needs met and/or is unhappy with some of his wife's behavior.


You definitely passed the test. Many people would have taken that conversation down the wrong path. Don't be ashamed of those thoughts. They are just part of being human and part of the regular temptations we have to deal with all the time.


----------



## pastasauce79

FloridaGuy1 said:


> It would be intersting to hear from other women here to see if they share DBTR's sentiments?


I like sex. I need sex, but I don't need sex every day. 

I don't need sex like a man, because I'm not a man.

As a woman who likes to have regular sex, I don't understand women who don't like to have sex at all, or women who feel sex is a duty. 

I'm someone who is very sensitive to hormonal changes. I know I'm ovulating because my body changes and I feel I want to jump my husband's bones. That's the time of the month when I understand men and their desires. I can't control it and I think about sex all day. I dream about it, and I can't wait to have some time alone with my husband. But this doesn't last too long (thank God!) then I'm back to responsive desire. 

It's a very clear cycle for me. This cycle wasn't clear years ago when I was taking BC pills, or when I had two toddlers running around. My body and hormones were all over the place. I know my husband was not completely happy with our sex life. He understood, I was exhausted and overwhelmed. He was patient. I think he understood our situation better than me. I'm grateful for that. 

I really don't know why women are LD. I know about myself and my body, but I don't know if that applies to every woman. 

It takes effort to have a good marriage, and it takes effort to have a good sex life. It takes effort to be a good parent, a good cook, a good housekeeper. You try to do your best at work, why not doing the same for your marriage? TAM has helped me understand things that were not clear enough for me about my marriage and my husband. 

Sex is important to me. I need sex at least once a week. I would go crazy in a sexless marriage.


----------



## farsidejunky

backhand said:


> Thanks for the compliment. I think I did the big picture stuff right in a surprise on-the-spot test. I included the commentary, which I'm not proud of, about what was also flashing through my mind (ha, "the devil sitting on my shoulder"). It shows the kind of inner dialogue that can be superficially tempting to a relatively "upstanding" man in my aforementioned ~85% category when he isn't getting all of his physical needs met and/or is unhappy with some of his wife's behavior.


What many fail to realize is marriages often end up in bad positions BECAUSE they completely ignore the 'devil on their shoulder'. While that guy is a selfish prick, he is very same voice that is telling you when you are neglecting your own needs for someone else...often to the detriment of our marriage and ourselves.

I'm not suggesting that some moderation isn't necessary, but he can't be completely ignored, either. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## ccpowerslave

pastasauce79 said:


> I can't control it and I think about sex all day.


This is generally how I am if it has been more than 36 hours or so since the last time I had sex. It gradually creeps into my thoughts until it becomes a constant presence.

Fortunately I don’t have that problem at the moment 😉


----------



## BigDaddyNY

pastasauce79 said:


> I like sex. I need sex, but I don't need sex every day.
> 
> I don't need sex like a man, because I'm not a man.
> 
> As a woman who likes to have regular sex, I don't understand women who don't like to have sex at all, or women who feel sex is a duty.
> 
> I'm someone who is very sensitive to hormonal changes. I know I'm ovulating because my body changes and I feel I want to jump my husband's bones. That's the time of the month when I understand men and their desires. I can't control it and I think about sex all day. I dream about it, and I can't wait to have some time alone with my husband. But this doesn't last too long (thank God!) then I'm back to responsive desire.
> 
> It's a very clear cycle for me. This cycle wasn't clear years ago when I was taking BC pills, or when I had two toddlers running around. My body and hormones were all over the place. I know my husband was not completely happy with our sex life. He understood, I was exhausted and overwhelmed. He was patient. I think he understood our situation better than me. I'm grateful for that.
> 
> I really don't know why women are LD. I know about myself and my body, but I don't know if that applies to every woman.
> 
> It takes effort to have a good marriage, and it takes effort to have a good sex life. It takes effort to be a good parent, a good cook, a good housekeeper. You try to do your best at work, why not doing the same for your marriage? TAM has helped me understand things that were not clear enough for me about my marriage and my husband.
> 
> Sex is important to me. I need sex at least once a week. I would go crazy in a sexless marriage.


Great to hear this from a woman. I especially like your comment about effort. Anything worthwhile requires effort, marriage and your sex life are no different. 

From your description it sounds like I'm always ovulating, lol. Joking aside, I can't understand a sexless marriage either. Even with crazy work schedules, stress, kids, etc., there has to be some time in the marriage for sex.


----------



## backhand

pastasauce79 said:


> ...It takes effort to have a good marriage, and it takes effort to have a good sex life. It takes effort to be a good parent, a good cook, a good housekeeper. You try to do your best at work, why not doing the same for your marriage?....


Well said. A person can fill in their own activities in lieu of being a good cook or whatever, but choosing to care enough to do your best by asking and acting on this question should be at the top of the list: What can I do to make him (e.g., sexual fulfilment) or her (e.g., active listening and communication) happy to be alive and married to me?


----------



## Divinely Favored

Diana7 said:


> That's true to a point but they must be more that holds a marriage together or if something awful happened such as an accident that meant there could be no more sex, or a serious illness, the marriage could not survive.
> My husband's first wife was pretty ill for some time and they didn't have sex for 9 months. It's part of the for better or for worse in marriage.


Accident or serious illness...that is not the issue. It is when the LD spouse refuses to address it. If something happened severly to me, i would pull out all the stops, including surgery to correct it or at least attempt anything humanly possible to satisfy my wife sexually.

The reverse happened, i believe she would do the same. I could live with that. Be pretty damned sad but could endure knowing she wanted to please me but was physically incapable....not because she just didn't care enough to do what ever she could do to correct it.


----------



## In Absentia

pastasauce79 said:


> As a woman who likes to have regular sex, I don't understand women who don't like to have sex at all, or women who feel sex is a duty.


What would you do if you had a man "ovulating" all the time and wanted sex a lot more than you did? Since you understand how the man would feel like... just curious.


----------



## Anastasia6

I think we have two wildly different conversations going on here. Some are talking sexless, others once a week, others once a day or more. I think we all agree sexless isn't fair to anyone without medical or mental issues. But for many on this board they would divorce their wife over once a week and have advised others to do so.


----------



## ElwoodPDowd

Anastasia6 said:


> I think we have two wildly different conversations going on here. Some are talking sexless, others once a week, others once a day or more. I think we all agree sexless isn't fair to anyone without medical or mental issues. But for many on this board they would divorce their wife over once a week and have advised others to do so.


In my first marriage once a week would have been great.
Once a month was more like it with me, although I'm not sure how often she was doing it with her lovers (which I didn't know about at the time).


----------



## In Absentia

Anastasia6 said:


> But for many on this board they would divorce their wife over once a week and have advised others to do so.


Not me. I would have been happy with once a week. Quality over quantity for me. But many will disagree, probably saying you can have quality sex every day of the week...


----------



## pastasauce79

BigDaddyNY said:


> From your description it sounds like I'm always ovulating, lol.


I can't imagine feeling like that all the time!


----------



## pastasauce79

In Absentia said:


> What would you do if you had a man "ovulating" all the time and wanted sex a lot more than you did? Since you understand how the man would feel like... just curious.


I can give you my point of view as a woman who likes sex, without any medical or psychological issues. I don't know what to tell you if I were LD because I don't understand what they go through. 

I think my husband has always wanted a lot more sex than me. He told me once he understood I didn't want sex every day, and he wanted a compromise. I think we've reached that point. By reaching a compromise, I don't feel anxious about it and I can enjoy it a lot more. 

I also appreciate what he does outside the bedroom and he's fun to be around, which makes him more appealing. Also, sex is a trigger for his headaches so sometimes I'm the one who's sexually frustrated. 

My best guess is to try and reach a compromise. What's acceptable for you? Are there any hormonal problems affecting your spouse's libido? BC pills killed my libido. I was lucky to figure that out on my own. But it didn't happen overnight. I felt I had to reset my whole body for a while. 

I'm also curious to know what's going on with other women. I don't understand when they say they don't want sex at all. That's something that doesn't happen to me.


----------



## gr8ful1

pastasauce79 said:


> It takes effort to have a good marriage, and it takes effort to have a good sex life


As a minor tangent, I’d love to hear what women would say “effort” looks like for a wife, especially one who has responsive desire. Such wives simply don’t think about sex outside of when it’s sprung upon them. To me, “effort” would necessitate thinking about a something outside the time it’s actually occurring. If that’s true, it would seem that RD women don’t (and perhaps are incapable of) putting effort into their sex life. 

Help me out here!


----------



## In Absentia

pastasauce79 said:


> I can give you my point of view as a woman who likes sex, without any medical or psychological issues. I don't know what to tell you if I were LD because I don't understand what they go through.
> 
> I think my husband has always wanted a lot more sex than me. He told me once he understood I didn't want sex every day, and he wanted a compromise. I think we've reached that point. By reaching a compromise, I don't feel anxious about it and I can enjoy it a lot more.
> 
> I also appreciate what he does outside the bedroom and he's fun to be around, which makes him more appealing. Also, sex is a trigger for his headaches so sometimes I'm the one who's sexually frustrated.
> 
> My best guess is to try and reach a compromise. What's acceptable for you? Are there any hormonal problems affecting your spouse's libido? BC pills killed my libido. I was lucky to figure that out on my own. But it didn't happen overnight. I felt I had to reset my whole body for a while.
> 
> I'm also curious to know what's going on with other women. I don't understand when they say they don't want sex at all. That's something that doesn't happen to me.


Thanks for the reply... you say you have no psychological issues, but your user name is pastasauce?  

Joking apart, it's great that you managed to reach a compromise. This is what I have done all my life, but then other problems kicked in, so it was a struggle.



pastasauce79 said:


> I'm also curious to know what's going on with other women. I don't understand when they say they don't want sex at all. That's something that doesn't happen to me.


I'm not a woman  but regarding the above, I'm pretty sure a woman stops wanting sex when she has lost attraction/respect for her partner. In your case, you haven't.


----------



## Divinely Favored

LATERILUS79 said:


> Cherry-picked religions beliefs.... lol. It took me awhile to blow through that one. Childhood indoctrination is a b1tch, even at 42 years old.
> 
> All of these things reasons can be handled. You just need to get to a place of indifference, but it can be done.


Religious beliefs go both ways. I do not believe i can Biblically divorce my wife except on grounds of sexual immoral behavior. Most people just think adultry...but Biblical grounds are more than just adultry. I consider withholding as some spouses do, as the Bible says do not refrain unless both spouses agree and come back together, as sexually immoral behavior on her part and Biblical grounds for divorce.


----------



## DownButNotOut

Anastasia6 said:


> I think we have two wildly different conversations going on here. Some are talking sexless, others once a week, others once a day or more. I think we all agree sexless isn't fair to anyone without medical or mental issues. But for many on this board they would divorce their wife over once a week and have advised others to do so.


It isn't really two problems though is it. The problem is a difference in libidos that creates friction. If you can agree that sexless is a problem, then you should be able to see that any large difference will create a similar problem. At that point we are just arguing over how to balance that difference. That balance will be different for each couple, and it will probably be an uncomfortable place for both -- not enough for one and too much for the other. It's very possible that once a week is not the balance point for that couple, and they should still look for something different. If the LD partner in that situation is not willing to recognize the problem, then the HD's situation is not going to improve. At that point, yes, divorce is an option since only one person is willing to work to fix the situation.


----------



## DownButNotOut

pastasauce79 said:


> I can't imagine feeling like that all the time!


But you CAN understand something of how men go through life, and that is a great asset for you. Your understanding of the situation, even only for a short time each month, gives you the capacity for empathy that many women don't express in this area. Your husband is a lucky, lucky man.


----------



## Divinely Favored

DownByTheRiver said:


> Everything I wrote is taken straight from everything I've read over the last couple of years on this forum. Over and over again, men have written that they don't care about the relationship unless she's keeping up with him sexually. They're willing to throw away an entire family because sex is their number one priority.


BullSh!t

Feeling loved and cared for by your spouse is priority. 

When your LL is physical touch and a spouse couldn't give 2 sh!ts because they just aint feeling it. Tells you where you are on the list of importance.

Same as if your LL is quality time and your spouse does not want to spend time with you. Works all the time, plays stupid video games, always going out with friends to do things w/o you. Kind of tells their spouse how not important they are to them.

A spouse wanting to divorce due to rightly feeling abandoned emotionally could be told same thing. "You willing to throw away an entire family because controlling your spouse is your number one priority!"


----------



## Divinely Favored

LATERILUS79 said:


> I won’t put words in your mouth. That is unfair.
> 
> I am curious if you think I don’t provide everything you just mentioned.
> 
> I’m very good with my hands and my ability to solve problems. Hell, my kids have the craziest toys in the neighborhood because I can’t leave well enough alone. I modify everything. I can fix anything in the house, too. I am extremely strong and can lift Whatever it is that my wife wants moved around the house. I can assure you she wants for nothing in this area of our lives. I will toot my own horn here and say that I am exceptional in this area when compared to the typical man.
> 
> I do not fuss about her parents, but I also don’t go out of my way to be in their lives. Her mother and I do not see eye to eye as she subscribed to a modern women’s movement that I strongly disagree with, but under no circumstances do I show her or her father disrespect. My wife is well aware that all video games would be dropped in a heartbeat if she wanted to do something as simple as sitting and talking or watching a show together. I remind her of this often (for the few video games I do play).
> 
> again, I’m perplexed by your view of men as a whole. I feel like you feel we are out to get you. I am not perfect by any means, but I can say with confidence that I am a high quality man.
> 
> what would you say is your requirement that I have the right to speak? What is your requirement that I must meet in order to have needs of my own?
> 
> the only argument I’m seeing so far is that I as the man must do what my wife wants when she wants. If I don’t or I divorce her, then I’m a pig. I’m one of the bad men. Are men allowed to have needs too?


Not according to her. Your talking to a brick wall.


----------



## Anastasia6

Divinely Favored said:


> LATERILUS79 said:
> I won’t put words in your mouth. That is unfair.
> 
> I am curious if you think I don’t provide everything you just mentioned.
> 
> I’m very good with my hands and my ability to solve problems. Hell, my kids have the craziest toys in the neighborhood because I can’t leave well enough alone. I modify everything. I can fix anything in the house, too. I am extremely strong and can lift Whatever it is that my wife wants moved around the house. I can assure you she wants for nothing in this area of our lives. I will toot my own horn here and say that I am exceptional in this area when compared to the typical man.
> 
> I do not fuss about her parents, but I also don’t go out of my way to be in their lives. Her mother and I do not see eye to eye as she subscribed to a modern women’s movement that I strongly disagree with, but under no circumstances do I show her or her father disrespect. My wife is well aware that all video games would be dropped in a heartbeat if she wanted to do something as simple as sitting and talking or watching a show together. I remind her of this often (for the few video games I do play).
> 
> again, I’m perplexed by your view of men as a whole. I feel like you feel we are out to get you. I am not perfect by any means, but I can say with confidence that I am a high quality man.
> 
> what would you say is your requirement that I have the right to speak? What is your requirement that I must meet in order to have needs of my own?
> 
> the only argument I’m seeing so far is that I as the man must do what my wife wants when she wants. If I don’t or I divorce her, then I’m a pig. I’m one of the bad men. Are men allowed to have needs too?
> 
> DF
> Not according to her. Your talking to a brick wall.


Wow I got lost here. who are ya'll responding to? Who is calling men pigs? I really got lost by some huge left turn?
Or did something get deleted that would have made sense?


----------



## LATERILUS79

Divinely Favored said:


> Not according to her. Your talking to a brick wall.


Look, There is no budging. I didn’t know DBTR was unmarried and without kids. That ended the conversation for me as there was nothing left that was even remotely relatable. That’s fine. I have no issues with her view point, but I can no longer get anything meaningful from the conversation. I’m here at TAM to get different insights into marriage and relationships, but from a standpoint that is relatable and reasonable.

Then there are the subset of women here (in the minority) that subscribe to certain ideologies that I will never agree with. Again, that’s fine - but I don’t get anything useful from their comments. There’s no reason to even bother with the conversation once they make their position known.

these threads unfortunately do not attract the HD women on this site. Again, that is fine. They would chime in if they felt they could gain something from this discussion. Lots of people forget that dead bedrooms affect both men and women - and it is heartbreaking. Scroll a few pages back and you’ll see a great post by TwoDecades on this subject. My guess is that she would chime in more, but I know she is very busy with many other things and doesn’t have time for this site.
Jump around the site and you’ll see plenty of posts from HD women looking to get a more fulfilling relationship from their husbands, but probably where I see it the most, and the most tragic place as well, is in the coping with infidelity threads. It breaks my heart. I hate seeing HD women cheated on. I hate cheating all around, but I am shocked at the number of HD women that are cheated on. I was not prepared to read about that when I first came to this site. It went against all logic to me. I could see some slime ball not divorce his LD wife and start cheating. But to have a good sex life and do it anyway? I have to admit, these are the scenarios that bother me the most. These are the guys I just want to….. they cause high quality women to get a skewed view of men. These guys are outliers and complete garbage.


----------



## uphillbattle

Anastasia6 said:


> Wow I got lost here. who are ya'll responding to? Who is calling men pigs? I really got lost by some huge left turn?
> Or did something get deleted that would have made sense?


Post from a few days ago. I that DF was catching up and calling out DBTR.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

BigDaddyNY said:


> You know lots of men who have control over themselves? You have never been married. I'm not even sure if you've ever been in a long term relationship. How can you know all these men have "control over themselves" the way you think if you have not been in a long term sexual relationship with them?
> 
> So you are a women, no track record of marriage, and probably no LTR, but you are going to tell men that their sexual needs are their own problem based on your vast exposure to all those men you "know" with self control. You can't even recognize that a problem for one spouse is a problem for both spouses. It is a team effort. I would argue you are extraordinarily oblivious to what a man's needs are as well as what level of teamwork a marriage requires in order to be successful and have two happy partners.


Oh, I see. Just because I'm not married, I get to have no knowledge or opinion about sex or relationships or basically anything you don't agree with me on, even though I'm 68 years old. Brilliant. Got it, BigDaddyNY. Very convenient. Fortunately, I don't need your permission to have an opinion. So you might just want to put me on ignore.


----------



## LisaDiane

LATERILUS79 said:


> these threads unfortunately do not attract the HD women on this site. Again, that is fine. They would chime in if they felt they could gain something from this discussion. Lots of people forget that dead bedrooms affect both men and women - and it is heartbreaking.


Well, this thread was about how MEN view sex in marriage.

But I have to be honest...I've gone through too much pain and disappointment in my marriage to defend my right to have the needs and expectations that I want from a monogamous relationship honored, with people who show no empathy or RESPECT for MY feelings and experience, simply because it doesn't match theirs.

I'm certainly not going to join any discussion with someone who has the opinion that ANY unwanted sexual activity with me is abuse to my partner...that's personally offensive and repulsive to me, and I have NOTHING to say to anyone who would even see my experience that way.


----------



## LATERILUS79

LisaDiane said:


> Well, this thread was about how MEN view sex in marriage.
> 
> But I have to be honest...I've gone through too much pain and disappointment in my marriage to defend my right to have the needs and expectations that I want from a monogamous relationship honored, with people who show no empathy or RESPECT for MY feelings and experience, simply because it doesn't match theirs.
> 
> I'm certainly not going to join any discussion with someone who has the opinion that ANY unwanted sexual activity with me is abuse to my partner...that's personally offensive and repulsive to me, and I have NOTHING to say to anyone who would even see my experience that way.


agreed on the point of how men view sex in marriage. I get sidetracked easily. 😂 sometimes I gotta remind myself to re-read the title of the thread instead of just clicking.

for the remainder of what you said….I’m going to ask you to pardon me on this one. I feel like the village idiot here. I didn’t understand any of your points in the last two paragraphs after reading them both 5 times.

you had quoted me so I didn’t want to not answer….. I just didn’t know what you were getting at. I’m sorry you’ve dealt with a lot of pain in your marriage. I need to read up on your story sometime.


----------



## pastasauce79

DownButNotOut said:


> But you CAN understand something of how men go through life, and that is a great asset for you. Your understanding of the situation, even only for a short time each month, gives you the capacity for empathy that many women don't express in this area. Your husband is a lucky, lucky man.


But I think it goes both ways. Most men don't understand how women feel like. It would be interesting to see men going through hormonal changes every month, or feeling like they don't want sex at all. 

This is why finding a middle ground benefits both parties.


----------



## LisaDiane

LATERILUS79 said:


> agreed on the point of how men view sex in marriage. I get sidetracked easily. 😂 sometimes I gotta remind myself to re-read the title of the thread instead of just clicking.
> 
> for the remainder of what you said….I’m going to ask you to pardon me on this one. I feel like the village idiot here. I didn’t understand any of your points in the last two paragraphs after reading them both 5 times.
> 
> you had quoted me so I didn’t want to not answer….. I just didn’t know what you were getting at. I’m sorry you’ve dealt with a lot of pain in your marriage. I need to read up on your story sometime.


I didn't really post my explicit story on here, I've brought it up when I believe my perspective might help someone else.

I only quoted you because I was answering you as to why, as a HD woman from a sexless marriage, I didn't feel like wading into this thread...number one was because I didn't want to interject my thoughts because I thought it was for men.

But the second reason is because as I followed the posts, I didn't want to engage in any of the arguments. I don't believe MY perspective would have been respected or have mattered AT ALL. So I stayed silent.


----------



## LisaDiane

pastasauce79 said:


> But I think it goes both ways. Most men don't understand how women feel like. It would be interesting to see men going through hormonal changes every month, *or feeling like they don't want sex at all*.
> 
> This is why finding a middle ground benefits both parties.


There are plenty of men who don't want sex...and even go through hormonal changes - ever see a man with low Testosterone and high Estrogen...?? YIKES!!!!


----------



## ccpowerslave

Working out in the boxing gym today hitting bags, competing, trash talking, etc… spiked my testosterone and my wife is going to be getting initiated on this evening unless she avoids the bedroom completely. 

Yesterday she came to bed and was tired but after I confirmed she wasn’t “dead tired” gave it the old college try.

I’m guessing today she will be even more tired and also perhaps worn out. So I have already made the decision that I would be happy to have her give me a BJ if she’d prefer that to PIV.

Sometimes you have to look for creative solutions!


----------



## staceymj86

pastasauce79 said:


> I can give you my point of view as a woman who likes sex, without any medical or psychological issues. I don't know what to tell you if I were LD because I don't understand what they go through.
> 
> I think my husband has always wanted a lot more sex than me. He told me once he understood I didn't want sex every day, and he wanted a compromise. I think we've reached that point. By reaching a compromise, I don't feel anxious about it and I can enjoy it a lot more.
> 
> I also appreciate what he does outside the bedroom and he's fun to be around, which makes him more appealing. Also, sex is a trigger for his headaches so sometimes I'm the one who's sexually frustrated.
> 
> My best guess is to try and reach a compromise. What's acceptable for you? Are there any hormonal problems affecting your spouse's libido? BC pills killed my libido. I was lucky to figure that out on my own. But it didn't happen overnight. I felt I had to reset my whole body for a while.
> 
> I'm also curious to know what's going on with other women. I don't understand when they say they don't want sex at all. That's something that doesn't happen to me.


I’m a woman and my libido goes up and down. In the past because of depression and not going therapy, and not understanding what was going on mentally in my brain, I would go on binges where I didn’t want to have sex for weeks at a time. Of course that led my ex’s to cheat on me. I’m going to therapy now and it has helped a lot. We have sex at least 4-5 times a week. Sometimes twice in a day. My libido drops a few days before my cycle, and ramps back up afterwards, especially when I’m ovulating. I have been LD in the past and in my current relationship. We talked and came to a compromise, because he want sex everyday, which I agreed to, but with our physically demanding jobs and 2 kids with 2 different school schedules, sometimes we’re too tired to have sex, but we make up for it the next day.


----------



## Rus47

pastasauce79 said:


> I can give you my point of view as a woman who likes sex, without any medical or psychological issues. I don't know what to tell you if I were LD because I don't understand what they go through.
> 
> I think my husband has always wanted a lot more sex than me. He told me once he understood I didn't want sex every day, and he wanted a compromise. I think we've reached that point. By reaching a compromise, I don't feel anxious about it and I can enjoy it a lot more.
> 
> I also appreciate what he does outside the bedroom and he's fun to be around, which makes him more appealing. Also, sex is a trigger for his headaches so sometimes I'm the one who's sexually frustrated.
> 
> *My best guess is to try and reach a compromise. What's acceptable for you? Are there any hormonal problems affecting your spouse's libido? BC pills killed my libido. I was lucky to figure that out on my own. But it didn't happen overnight. I felt I had to reset my whole body for a while.*
> 
> I'm also curious to know what's going on with other women. I don't understand when they say they don't want sex at all. That's something that doesn't happen to me.


Just FWIW, it isn't always the female that is the LD in a marriage. A year ago wife's doctor changed her HRT proportions, her libido went higher than it had ever been. So, this old man had to make some changes, including getting on HRT and embarking on a fitness program to keep up the pace she was setting. Partners who love one another* want* to make one another happy, and make the effort to do so.


----------



## LATERILUS79

staceymj86 said:


> I’m a woman and my libido goes up and down. In the past because of depression and not going therapy, and not understanding what was going on mentally in my brain, I would go on binges where I didn’t want to have sex for weeks at a time. Of course that led my ex’s to cheat on me. I’m going to therapy now and it has helped a lot. We have sex at least 4-5 times a week. Sometimes twice in a day. My libido drops a few days before my cycle, and ramps back up afterwards, especially when I’m ovulating. I have been LD in the past and in my current relationship. We talked and came to a compromise, because he want sex everyday, which I agreed to, but with our physically demanding jobs and 2 kids with 2 different school schedules, sometimes we’re too tired to have sex, but we make up for it the next day.


Staceymj86, thank you for sharing.

I really wanted to address something here that I think you should know - your LL DID NOT lead to your exes cheating. Your exes cheated due to character flaws on their part, not yours. If they felt they needed someone else, then they should have come to you first and ended the relationship like a common, decent person.


----------



## LATERILUS79

Rus47 said:


> Just FWIW, it isn't always the female that is the LD in a marriage. A year ago wife's doctor changed her HRT proportions, her libido went higher than it had ever been. So, this old man had to make some changes, including getting on HRT and embarking on a fitness program to keep up the pace she was setting. Partners who love one another* want* to make one another happy, and make the effort to do so.


What is this magical HRT you speak of?


----------



## staceymj86

LATERILUS79 said:


> Staceymj86, thank you for sharing.
> 
> I really wanted to address something here that I think you should know - your LL DID NOT lead to your exes cheating. Your exes cheated due to character flaws on their part, not yours. If they felt they needed someone else, then they should have come to you first and ended the relationship like a common, decent person.


That would’ve saved me so much anger and hurt.


----------



## ccpowerslave

LATERILUS79 said:


> What is this magical HRT you speak of?


Probably testerone.

We have ageless male clinics here where you can get HGH, testosterone, and probably other stuff. I have considered it just for athletic performance and my wife cringes every time.


----------



## pastasauce79

LisaDiane said:


> There are plenty of men who don't want sex...and even go through hormonal changes - ever see a man with low Testosterone and high Estrogen...?? YIKES!!!!


Yes, I think most men don't know about other men with hormonal imbalances. I think talking about those problems are seen as less manly, unattractive, weak, beta, etc. 

Men are very reluctant to go to the doctor, specially to talk about their penis and it's function, or lack of function. My FIL hasn't let his PCP do a prostate check because "he's not gay!" WTF?!? I don't say anything about it anymore, but he pees 1000 times a day and night. Whatever!


----------



## FloridaGuy1

ccpowerslave said:


> So I have already made the decision that I would be happy to have her give me a BJ if she’d prefer that to PIV.


I'd be happy with that kind of concession!


----------



## ccpowerslave

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I'd be happy with that kind of concession!


Sometimes you have to really stretch and challenge yourself but I think I can do it.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Anastasia6 said:


> This site is very one sided most times and I think runs off the other perspectives. That makes it hard for those seeking any truth other than the standard 'truth' hard to find.
> 
> Take this thread for example. I'm actually surprised the few woman we have here that usually show up and say yes the HD should have it as much as they want and I"m a woman so both sides agree haven't showed up. I know why most the women haven't showed.
> 
> I knew what was going to happen when I posted.
> 
> I think there are solutions for some of these problems but this site won't get there because burn the witch, right.
> 
> It's fine. I guess I was avoiding the mound of work I have to do so decided to respond mostly for Floridaguy. I know he's been having trouble and he still sometimes seems to be searching for answers.
> 
> The truth is there are woman who withhold on purpose, there are those that don't want sex. I can't defend them. I think there are way more women and men that entered into marriage and just never really made a union. I also guess that means there may not be solutions for many because it was a house of sand to begin with.


Flip side, there are many that it is always the men's fault. Wife cheats, guy did something that led her to do it. You can always tell where peoples sore spot is. Some scream louder than others to emphasize their injury is more substantial and therefore their stance must be correct.

Thing is, many people put on airs prior to marriage to snag the guy/girl they think will make them happiest. They had no intention of keeping up what attracted their mate so the illusions become reality. Many, many people should have never married in 1st place because they were not truely compatable.


----------



## Anastasia6

Divinely Favored said:


> Flip side, there are many that it is always the men's fault. Wife cheats, guy did something that led her to do it. You can always tell where peoples sore spot is. Some scream louder than others to emphasize their injury is more substantial and therefore their stance must be correct.
> 
> Thing is, many people put on airs prior to marriage to snag the guy/girl they think will make them happiest. They had no intention of keeping up what attracted their mate so the illusions become reality. Many, many people should have never married in 1st place because they were not truely compatable.


Wow I don't know any on this site that say it is always the man's fault.

I believe whether it is the man or the woman who cheats that IF the couple are going to stay together they need to both work on the marriage. I, however, do tend to agree that cheating should lead to divorce. On the otherhand if the spouse wants to reconcile I won't beat them up with 100 posts about not reconcile and do my best to help them with the question they asked.

100% agree many people should never have married. I'll go a step further and say many people should never marry period.


----------



## CatholicDad

I think it obvious that sex is incredibly important to men. I think 99% of the male brain from age 13 on is devoted to seeking it out.... my theory is the Taliban probably invaded Afghanistan to score some babes... guys in prison are so desperate for it they turn on each other. 

I think the difference in good/bad marriages is that men also need an extra helping of something called self control (might also be called self respect). If the wife turns you down and you boot up the porn to self satisfy- well that’s just a child’s response really. Ditto with grumpiness, pouting, “covert contracts”... these are all tools or traits of men lacking self control. Hey, we’ve all been there.... I’m thanking the good God I learned just enough self control that I didn’t destroy my marriage. Probably came close.

I disagree that “duty sex” leads to the destruction of marriage... it strengthens it. I think so, so, so fondly of my wife for her willingness and self sacrifice to engage me even at times when she’s not in the mood or exhausted. She’s proven her love to the point that I now try NOT to withdrawal from that “duty” account and offer her a little wine, back rub, or friendly ear in hope something evolves. Yeah, woo her... don’t pressure her. I’ve never found that talking to her about “my needs” ever did a bit of good.... she already knows.


----------



## uphillbattle

CatholicDad said:


> *I disagree that “duty sex” leads to the destruction of marriage... it strengthens it. *


While you may believe this I would doubt that most women would agree with it


----------



## LATERILUS79

There it is! I knew it was coming and CatholicDad did not disappoint! PORN! THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL.


----------



## CatholicDad

LATERILUS79 said:


> There it is! I knew it was coming and CatholicDad did not disappoint! PORN! THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL.


Not the root of all evil but nevertheless destructive to marriage. Likewise, lack of self control... really my point tonight... porn being just a symptom of it.


----------



## CatholicDad

uphillbattle said:


> While you may believe this I would doubt that most women would agree with it


I think a matter of degrees... a little duty sex every now and again- not too bad.


----------



## ElwoodPDowd

CatholicDad said:


> If the wife turns you down and you boot up the porn to self satisfy- well that’s just a child’s response really.


A child does as his mommy tells him, a man chooses his own path.

When I was first married to my current wife one evening she said, "I don't like sex very much, I hope we don't have to do it often"
As I walked towards the front door and picked my m/c keys up, she said "where are you going?"
My reply was, "As my wife you always get first refusal"
I was promptly dragged into the bedroom, and I've never had to say that again.

If my wife won't cook me dinner, and I don't feel in the mood to cook it myself, I'll get a take-away.


----------



## Divinely Favored

pastasauce79 said:


> I can't imagine feeling like that all the time!


My wife while getting hormone injections balanced after hystorectomy, she did not have enough and Dr told her just come back and they will give her some more. It had been a couple weeks so Dr just gave her another full dose shot. 

She was in radio sales. She had to stay home for a week. All she could think about was having sex with me. She would change panties 3-4× day. We could go rounds with her being well satisfied and she was rip roaring to go again right after. 

She was miserable because she was insatiable and sex was all she could think about. I noticed her appetite increase but she did not tell me about not going in to work(makes her own schedule) until month later. I was disappointed, i would have taken the week off work had i known and would have never left the BR but for food.

I told her welcome to being a young man but her week is an ongoing reality for men from age of 14 up.


----------



## Divinely Favored

LisaDiane said:


> There are plenty of men who don't want sex...and even go through hormonal changes - ever see a man with low Testosterone and high Estrogen...?? YIKES!!!!


BTDT.... why i give myself injections 2x week. As i tell those in that condition...you can have the years playmates in your living room naked and your more concerned with them blocking the TV. 

What is sad and pathetic is typically all hormonal related LD is fixable but the person does not care enough for their spouse to get it corrected.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Anastasia6 said:


> Wow I don't know any on this site that say it is always the man's fault.
> 
> I believe whether it is the man or the woman who cheats that IF the couple are going to stay together they need to both work on the marriage. I, however, do tend to agree that cheating should lead to divorce. On the otherhand if the spouse wants to reconcile I won't beat them up with 100 posts about not reconcile and do my best to help them with the question they asked.
> 
> 100% agree many people should never have married. I'll go a step further and say many people should never marry period.


One comes to mind.


----------



## Rus47

LATERILUS79 said:


> What is this magical HRT you speak of?


Testosterone cypionate 150 mg injected every 14 days. DHEA 25 mg pill daily.


----------



## Rus47

pastasauce79 said:


> Yes, I think most men don't know about other men with hormonal imbalances. I think talking about those problems are seen as less manly, unattractive, weak, beta, etc.
> 
> Men are very reluctant to go to the doctor, specially to talk about their penis and it's function, or lack of function. My FIL hasn't let his PCP do a prostate check because "he's not gay!" WTF?!? I don't say anything about it anymore, but he pees 1000 times a day and night. Whatever!


You tell your FIL he had better get checked, psa n finger wave yearly if he is over 50!! Prostate cancer once it escapes the capsule is usually incurable. It is a horribly painful , long way to die.

Most men are not going to discuss their sexual issues with anyone, least of all another male ( even a close friend ). They want all of their friends to think they are Casanova. My wife's best friend wanted her to ask me talk to husband about his ED problem, which he won't address. I told my wife there was no way I could do that, he would become incredibly angry at all of us.

And yes, it is ridiculous men are unwilling to address any sexual problems with all of the treatment available in this modern age.


----------



## LATERILUS79

Rus47 said:


> Testosterone cypionate 150 mg injected every 14 days. DHEA 25 mg pill daily.


Imma talk to my wife about dis if things start to slow down. I'm just going to refer to these as "sex" injections now.


----------



## LisaDiane

Divinely Favored said:


> BTDT.... why i give myself injections 2x week. As i tell those in that condition...you can have the years playmates in your living room naked and your more concerned with them blocking the TV.
> 
> What is sad and pathetic is typically all hormonal related LD is fixable but the person does not care enough for their spouse to get it corrected.


Do you ever need an Estrogen blocker?

I also believe LD can be a mindset, a (selfishly) chosen mindset. In that case, hormones won't help.


----------



## LisaDiane

pastasauce79 said:


> Yes, I think most men don't know about other men with hormonal imbalances. I think talking about those problems are seen as less manly, unattractive, weak, beta, etc.
> 
> Men are very reluctant to go to the doctor, specially to talk about their penis and it's function, or lack of function. My FIL hasn't let his PCP do a prostate check because "he's not gay!" WTF?!? I don't say anything about it anymore, but he pees 1000 times a day and night. Whatever!


Have him try Saw Palmetto...I've seen it work wonders with men who have age-related prostate issues!


----------



## jjj858

Even after discussing it with her and trying various things suggested here it’s still the same months later. I get home from work, we get the kid put to bed, and have alone time. And she still prefers to sit on the other side of the couch on her phone all night. She’s more married to her phone than me. The times I’ve initiated I can feel the lack of desire on her part or the “going thru the motions” or I just get turned down altogether. Then she wonders why I seem upset or act distant? It’s like she just doesn’t get it at all. It’s hard to believe that I’m married but fall asleep feeling lonelier that ever before.


----------



## backhand

pastasauce79 said:


> But I think it goes both ways. Most men don't understand how women feel like. It would be interesting to see men going through hormonal changes every month, or feeling like they don't want sex at all...


Thanks for this. I think it's such an important thought, especially the last "...or feeling like they don't want sex at all." There may be better ways to explore the thought and this is off the top, but can I liken the woman "feeling like they don't want sex at all" to specific examples of me doing something I don't want to do? For example, I imagine I'm already physically and mentally drained and I don't want to go outside and run for about ~20 minutes (frequency isn't the main issue here, let's just say what is average for any age particular group). In other words, something that I am capable of doing but find really disagreeable. So if it only affects me, I don't do the run. However, if I knew somehow my wife would get great pleasure from me doing the "duty" run (the physical and mental thought of which makes me go, "Argh"), and I knew it would help our marriage, I do the run (and with the best attitude I can muster at that moment). 

Yes, this is a comparative oversimplification (don't have time now to concoct better examples) because sex is more complicated, but assuming this is a good marriage and so forth, I'm curious what major oversights are lacking in my thought process likening it to a woman "feeling like they don't want sex at all" and opting out? The bottom line to me still comes back to gladly giving a limited amount of time to make my partner among the happiest people on earth during that time even if I get nothing or deny that I get nothing out of it.


----------



## Rus47

LATERILUS79 said:


> Imma talk to my wife about dis if things start to slow down. I'm just going to refer to these as "sex" injections now.


Get a doctor who will test, diagnose and follow. Avoid these "low T" centers IMHO. This isnt something to approach lightly. Problem not necessarily from low T. In my case it certainly was. I have blood testing every 3 months.


----------



## LisaDiane

jjj858 said:


> Even after discussing it with her and trying various things suggested here it’s still the same months later. I get home from work, we get the kid put to bed, and have alone time. And she still prefers to sit on the other side of the couch on her phone all night. She’s more married to her phone than me. The times I’ve initiated I can feel the lack of desire on her part or the “going thru the motions” or I just get turned down altogether. Then she wonders why I seem upset or act distant? It’s like she just doesn’t get it at all. *It’s hard to believe that I’m married but fall asleep feeling lonelier that ever before.*


This is awful, I know from personal experience. I agree - feeling lonely in my marriage was much more painful than feeling lonely by myself.


----------



## LATERILUS79

Rus47 said:


> Get a doctor who will test, diagnose and follow. Avoid these "low T" centers IMHO. This isnt something to approach lightly. Problem not necessarily from low T. In my case it certainly was. I have blood testing every 3 months.


Oh, this will be for my wife one day. I seem to be ok in this department. My drive hasn’t slowed down since I turned 15 years old.

things between my wife and I have been excellent for a good 9 months now - but if we were to revert, doc appointments would be made in hurry. No time to waste. Did enough of that for far too long.


----------



## LATERILUS79

LisaDiane said:


> This is awful, I know from personal experience. I agree - feeling lonely in my marriage was much more painful than feeling lonely by myself.


I get EXACTLY what you are feeling here. The loneliness in a relationship is PAINFUL. I’ve expressed to my wife before that I would rather be by myself and lonely than ever feel lonely and unloved in my marriage again. No way. It’s not going to happen. I refuse to be put in that situation ever again.


----------



## ElwoodPDowd

LATERILUS79 said:


> I get EXACTLY what you are feeling here. The loneliness in a relationship is PAINFUL. I’ve expressed to my wife before that I would rather be by myself and lonely than ever feel lonely and unloved in my marriage again. No way. It’s not going to happen. I refuse to be put in that situation ever again.


I bought some rabbits, they're way better company than my wife.


----------



## CountryMike

pastasauce79 said:


> Yes, I think most men don't know about other men with hormonal imbalances. I think talking about those problems are seen as less manly, unattractive, weak, beta, etc.
> 
> Men are very reluctant to go to the doctor, specially to talk about their penis and it's function, or lack of function. My FIL hasn't let his PCP do a prostate check because "he's not gay!" WTF?!? I don't say anything about it anymore, but he pees 1000 times a day and night. Whatever!


Men do need to get over that. It's just life. My getting over that stuff ended on dr check up, long time dr but that day the NP did the check up and when she asked about prostate checking I told her yes we could schedule it for another day with dr......then she said no worries I can do it now......so, after a brief second I said well ok.
Most everything after that was a breeze.


----------



## ccpowerslave

So what @backhand said was pretty critical for us to get back on track without resentment and such.

This weekend I am going to a celebration of life for the parent of one of my wife’s childhood friends (guy) through high school. She basically hasn’t talked to him in 20 years but the guy’s mom invited him from Facebook.

For most of my marriage I would have thought, “Bah screw that, boring thing where I don’t know anyone during football with no alcohol”. My wife didn’t invite me she just told me she was going and what day it was.

I asked her if she wanted to go alone or if it was ok if I went with her. She is like well sure you can go if you want but it’s going to suck for you and blah blah blah… Nope, I’m going.

Whether she knows it or not, one of her love languages is quality time doing terrible and or annoying things with her. So I try to do them now and life is better.


----------



## jsmart

jjj858 said:


> Even after discussing it with her and trying various things suggested here it’s still the same months later. I get home from work, we get the kid put to bed, and have alone time. And she still prefers to sit on the other side of the couch on her phone all night. She’s more married to her phone than me. The times I’ve initiated I can feel the lack of desire on her part or the “going thru the motions” or I just get turned down altogether. Then she wonders why I seem upset or act distant? It’s like she just doesn’t get it at all. It’s hard to believe that I’m married but fall asleep feeling lonelier that ever before.


I’m sorry but you’re not describing low sex drive. A lot of the threads that I read about a low drive wife, they still engage with each other cuddle while watching tv together or other family time but what you described sounds like a wife that’s no longer in love with you. My spidey sense go off when there’s an aloofness combined with heavy phone attachment. Not sure if that’s been done but have you verified who’s she on the phone with? Text, social media, email? 

It just seems like way too many of these sexless marriages have wives that have emotional energy for other activities. To me @backhand is way to understanding of his wife’s outright disrespectful flirting ways. The married “friend” that was picking up and dropping off your wife for the 25 hours of pickle ball a week had a wife who’s gut was screaming that something stinks, had to have a sit down with your wife. If that doesn’t tell you that what she’s doing is wrong and unacceptable, I don’t know what to tell you.

Also, I don’t buy the menopause excuse. My wife , who has about average drive and is 54 year old is also menopausal and she’s no way as fit as the way you describe your wife yet she’s down for at least twice a week. I know everyone is different but after so many years on these boards, I smell unfaithfulness that either is happening or has already happened and she’s no longer able to sexually reconnect with you.


----------



## In Absentia

jsmart said:


> I’m sorry but you’re not describing low sex drive. A lot of the threads that I read about a low drive wife, they still engage with each other cuddle while watching tv together or other family time but what you described sounds like a wife that’s no longer in love with you. My spidey sense go off when there’s an aloofness combined with heavy phone attachment. Not sure if that’s been done but have you verified who’s she on the phone with? Text, social media, email?
> 
> It just seems like way too many of these sexless marriages have wives that have emotional energy for other activities. To me @backhand is way to understanding of his wife’s outright disrespectful flirting ways. The married “friend” that was picking up and dropping off your wife for the 25 hours of pickle ball a week had a wife who’s gut was screaming that something stinks, had to have a sit down with your wife. If that doesn’t tell you that what she’s doing is wrong and unacceptable, I don’t know what to tell you.
> 
> Also, I don’t buy the menopause excuse. My wife , who has about average drive and is 54 year old is also menopausal and she’s no way as fit as the way you describe your wife yet she’s down for at least twice a week. I know everyone is different but after so many years on these boards, I smell unfaithfulness that either is happening or has already happened and she’s no longer able to sexually reconnect with you.


Yes, it's very simple. If your wife/partner still loved you and was still attracted to you, she would still have sex with you. Also, careful with duty sex when the kids are growing up: when they leave the nest, your sex life might leave too. The pretence of a family is not needed any more and neither is your d!ck.


----------



## Rus47

LATERILUS79 said:


> Oh, this will be for my wife one day. I seem to be ok in this department. My drive hasn’t slowed down since I turned 15 years old.
> 
> things between my wife and I have been excellent for a good 9 months now - but if we were to revert, doc appointments would be made in hurry. No time to waste. Did enough of that for far too long.


But you see SHE has to decide what she does. My wife started HRT because she couldnt stand menopause symptoms. Was and remains her decision. I thought you were asking about me. I would NEVER tell my wife to undergo medical treatment. That hus her decision to make. If she wants to stop HRT in future and libido drops as a result, I will stop also and we will both become acquainted with cats lol


----------



## LisaDiane

ElwoodPDowd said:


> I bought some rabbits, they're way better company than my wife.


But...can EVERYONE see the rabbits...or just YOU...?? 
Lol!!!


----------



## LisaDiane

LATERILUS79 said:


> I get EXACTLY what you are feeling here. The loneliness in a relationship is PAINFUL. I’ve expressed to my wife before that I would rather be by myself and lonely than ever feel lonely and unloved in my marriage again. No way. It’s not going to happen. I refuse to be put in that situation ever again.


I think there needs to be room for moods to change and situations to have a chance to improve, but all that takes open and honest communication...if my partner cannot be honest, and insists on blameshifting and "gaslighting" me, that is a huge problem and unworkable for me.

I am willing to be caring and understanding to my partner, but not if I'm forced to feel confused and uncertain about what is happening and why.


----------



## In Absentia

ElwoodPDowd said:


> I bought some rabbits, they're way better company than my wife.


What kind of rabbits? With batteries?


----------



## BigDaddyNY

jjj858 said:


> Even after discussing it with her and trying various things suggested here it’s still the same months later. I get home from work, we get the kid put to bed, and have alone time. And she still prefers to sit on the other side of the couch on her phone all night. She’s more married to her phone than me. The times I’ve initiated I can feel the lack of desire on her part or the “going thru the motions” or I just get turned down altogether. Then she wonders why I seem upset or act distant? It’s like she just doesn’t get it at all. It’s hard to believe that I’m married but fall asleep feeling lonelier that ever before.


It sounds like you need to have time away from the phone. Have you considered setting a time where phones go away and it is just you two?


----------



## LisaDiane

LATERILUS79 said:


> There it is! I knew it was coming and CatholicDad did not disappoint! PORN! THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL.


For some people, it actually is! He makes some great points from personal experience and the struggles in HIS marriage.

I think for the most part, porn has a minimal effect, and can even be positive for those couples who have fun with it...but for the people who have a problem with it, it is devastating.

I believe he is posting from his personal experience in his life, so it makes sense.


----------



## LATERILUS79

Rus47 said:


> But you see SHE has to decide what she does. My wife started HRT because she couldnt stand menopause symptoms. Was and remains her decision. I thought you were asking about me. I would NEVER tell my wife to undergo medical treatment. That hus her decision to make. If she wants to stop HRT in future and libido drops as a result, I will stop also and we will both become acquainted with cats lol


Oh, I don't plan on forcing anyone to do anything. Everyone is autonomous. Everyone can make their own decisions. It took too long for me to come to that conclusion. As if I "owed" people something. I don't. Right now, things are good. It took us forever to get to this point. All of my patience though is used up. 16 years worth. We are talking. We have good discussions. I'm working on ridding myself of the resentment that I built up over that time. 

I've just come to a point in my life where I am no longer going to allow myself to feel lonely in my marriage. It hurts too much. Through my discussions with my wife, it has come to my knowledge that she truly didn't realize how much it hurt me over those 16 years. She said she sorta saw it.... but whatever. It wasn't until we started to have deep conversations and I had to spoon feed the reddit dead bedrooms forums for her to realize just how much she was hurting me over the years. I will work with her as long as she continues to put in effort. She should expect the same from me. If a hormonal imbalance comes up, we will deal with it when the time comes. If she chooses that she does not want to deal with it, that is perfectly fine. It is her choice to do what she pleases, but I can make my own choices as well. I won't do what I did like I did last time. We can separate amicably, be friends and co-parent. I'm good with that. I have come to peace with that as I had already started to detach myself a couple of years back. I've flipped back around to being in my marriage 100%, but I now know that I can detach and be fine with leaving.


----------



## LisaDiane

In Absentia said:


> What kind of rabbits? With batteries?


Lolol!!! I THINK I know what joke you are making here...but then would it be for HIM really...?? Lol!


----------



## jjj858

jsmart said:


> I’m sorry but you’re not describing low sex drive. A lot of the threads that I read about a low drive wife, they still engage with each other cuddle while watching tv together or other family time but what you described sounds like a wife that’s no longer in love with you. My spidey sense go off when there’s an aloofness combined with heavy phone attachment. Not sure if that’s been done but have you verified who’s she on the phone with? Text, social media, email?
> 
> It just seems like way too many of these sexless marriages have wives that have emotional energy for other activities.


I don’t want to threadjack with my issues too much. But yeah I’ve definitely done a lot of digging and investigating because my ex cheated on me and I ignored red flags then. She’s not talking to anyone else and we share location with each other on iPhone. She comes straight home from work everyday. It’s mainly endless Facebook scrolling and nonstop posting on new Mom groups and baby clothes groups.

Sometimes she does want to cuddle and watch tv together but always on her terms. I resent it because I feel like I’m used to meet her emotional needs whenever she needs me, but she doesn’t care about my needs as a man. I feel like I’m made out to be some perv just because I want to make love to my wife. During one recent argument she said “what, do you want me to just bend over so you can have your way with me? Maybe you need to get a prostitute” and I couldn’t believe it. I’m always a respectful and loving husband and I’ve never treated her like just a sexual object so I don’t know what that was about.


----------



## LisaDiane

jjj858 said:


> Sometimes she does want to cuddle and watch tv together but always on her terms. I resent it because I feel like I’m used to meet her emotional needs whenever she needs me, but she doesn’t care about my needs as a man.


This is very likely what is going on. I can't remember if I've read anything more about your situation...does she know that you feel this way?


----------



## LATERILUS79

LisaDiane said:


> For some people, it actually is! He makes some great points from personal experience and the struggles in HIS marriage.
> 
> I think for the most part, porn has a minimal effect, and can even be positive for those couples who have fun with it...but for the people who have a problem with it, it is devastating.
> 
> I believe he is posting from his personal experience in his life, so it makes sense.


I cant comment on this as I don't want to get banned. I'll just say this: I was born and raised as a catholic. I'm not one any more.


----------



## Rus47

LisaDiane said:


> Lolol!!! I THINK I know what joke you are making here...but then would it be for HIM really...??


They would both enjoy it.


----------



## ccpowerslave

jjj858 said:


> During one recent argument she said “what, do you want me to just bend over so you can have your way with me? Maybe you need to get a prostitute” and I couldn’t believe it. I’m always a respectful and loving husband and I’ve never treated her like just a sexual object so I don’t know what that was about.


If my wife ever said that to me I would be planning a big time scorched earth exit on her.


----------



## Openminded

jjj858 said:


> Even after discussing it with her and trying various things suggested here it’s still the same months later. I get home from work, we get the kid put to bed, and have alone time. And she still prefers to sit on the other side of the couch on her phone all night. She’s more married to her phone than me. The times I’ve initiated I can feel the lack of desire on her part or the “going thru the motions” or I just get turned down altogether. Then she wonders why I seem upset or act distant? It’s like she just doesn’t get it at all. It’s hard to believe that I’m married but fall asleep feeling lonelier that ever before.


Ever consider that a big part of your being in her life, as she sees it, was to give her a baby? And now you’ve done that. If she talks you into trying for another one then you’ll see her ramp it up.


----------



## LATERILUS79

CatholicDad said:


> First, thank you @LisaDiane for your somewhat-of-a-positive thing to say about my post... albeit with a subtle dig.... grateful we kind of agree for once.
> 
> My point really wasn’t about porn but rather the complete lack of self control in men today. Yeah, porn using men lack self control... as do those that pout or get moody without sex. Grow some- fellas.
> 
> @LATERILUS79 you always attack even the smallest comment I make about porn... you’ve obviously got an axe to grind....
> 
> 
> 
> That’s tragic. I’m including you in my prayers and will offer my communion at my next Mass- for you. I agree there’s awful stuff in the church, but you can’t throw out the “baby with the bath water “.


Don't.


----------



## LisaDiane

CatholicDad said:


> First, thank you @LisaDiane for your somewhat-of-a-positive thing to say about my post... albeit with a subtle dig.... grateful we kind of agree for once.


I'm curious what you think was a subtle dig, because I didn't intend to make any at all -- in fact, you should know first hand from some of my other posts to you, if I disagree with you I'm NOT subtle at all...Lol!! However, that doesn't mean I have bad feelings towards you, because I don't.

Actually, I almost added that your posts against porn are just like my posts against alcohol, but I changed it so I didn't make it about ME.

I actually respect your views (and your right to hold them) even if I don't totally agree with what you think, and I also think your opposing views to mine are valuable for me to hear...I just can't resist challenging you sometimes...maybe that's MY lack of self control...?? Probably...Lol!!

NO subtle digs or sarcasm intended - I always try to say exactly what I think and feel!


----------



## LisaDiane

Openminded said:


> Ever consider that a big part of your being in her life, as she sees it, was to give her a baby? And now you’ve done that. If she talks you into trying for another one then you’ll see her ramp it up.


I think your insight is very helpful!


----------



## LisaDiane

Rus47 said:


> They would both enjoy it.


This could mean so many things...now I'm REALLY confused...Lol!!


----------



## CatholicDad

jjj858 said:


> I don’t want to threadjack with my issues too much. But yeah I’ve definitely done a lot of digging and investigating because my ex cheated on me and I ignored red flags then. She’s not talking to anyone else and we share location with each other on iPhone. She comes straight home from work everyday. It’s mainly endless Facebook scrolling and nonstop posting on new Mom groups and baby clothes groups.
> 
> Sometimes she does want to cuddle and watch tv together but always on her terms. I resent it because I feel like I’m used to meet her emotional needs whenever she needs me, but she doesn’t care about my needs as a man. I feel like I’m made out to be some perv just because I want to make love to my wife. During one recent argument she said “what, do you want me to just bend over so you can have your way with me? Maybe you need to get a prostitute” and I couldn’t believe it. I’m always a respectful and loving husband and I’ve never treated her like just a sexual object so I don’t know what that was about.


Hey brother, my advice is quit pressuring her, act aloof about sex, but always try and figure out what works.

My wife enjoys showering with me. Took me twenty years to figure that out. I jump in, talk to her and wash and smile... always develops as it’s relaxing and kids are away. I bring music and she likes the way I look wet and naked (and vice versa).

When she’s on the couch on her phone and you share a few glasses of her favorite wine and turn on some relaxing music.... what happens then? Refill her glass even when she’s not looking... all is fair in love and war. Keep a private journal of your attempts to relax and woo her... just throw out the resentment.. not helpful.


----------



## CatholicDad

LisaDiane said:


> I'm curious what you think was a subtle dig, because I didn't intend to make any at all -- in fact, you should know first hand from some of my other posts to you, if I disagree with you I'm NOT subtle at all...Lol!! However, that doesn't mean I have bad feelings towards you, because I don't.
> 
> Actually, I almost added that your posts against porn are just like my posts against alcohol, but I changed it so I didn't make it about ME.
> 
> I actually respect your views (and your right to hold them) even if I don't totally agree with what you think, and I also think your opposing views to mine are valuable for me to hear...I just can't resist challenging you sometimes...maybe that's MY lack of self control...?? Probably...Lol!!
> 
> NO subtle digs or sarcasm intended - I always try to say exactly what I think and feel!


I guess reading between the lines I thought it was the whole “reflecting thing” that “CD sees all issues as porn related because HE has such a problem with it”. I’m admittedly ashamed about my own past problems with porn fwiw. If I can help one guy out of the porn lie- think my wasted time on TAM would be well spent.


----------



## LisaDiane

jjj858 said:


> During one recent argument she said “what, do you want me to just bend over so you can have your way with me? Maybe you need to get a prostitute” and I couldn’t believe it. I’m always a respectful and loving husband and I’ve never treated her like just a sexual object so I don’t know what that was about.


That's about deflecting, blame-shifting, and shaming you, because she doesn't want to deal with the REAL issue - her dismissing and refusing to recognize or care about your needs as her monogamous partner.
She refuses to even DISCUSS it honestly like a caring spouse...I think this is very wrong, and it feels bad to you because it IS BAD.


----------



## backhand

jsmart, I appreciate and reflect on all input. Ha, almost wish more of what you wrote was true so things would be that unacceptably airtight and clear.


jsmart said:


> It just seems like way too many of these sexless marriages have wives that have emotional energy for other activities.


This is true. My wife has amazing physical energy to do many things fitness related. She says she wants to be fit because it makes her feel better (and it does). Yes, I've wondered why some of the energy isn't translated to the bedroom, but I've told my story many times. I get that some of it will be misremembered...I appreciate people caring enough to provide opinions. 


jsmart said:


> To me @backhand is way to understanding of his wife’s outright disrespectful flirting ways.


Again, as I've said many times, my wife's ultra-outgoing personality has nothing to do with sexual energy or even flirting. I've observed her for 35+ years. This is who she is. What I've said that does ~bother me a bit is that others don't see, e.g., the melancholy side of her and therefore think she is always laughing even behind closed doors (I don't clue them in to that when they remark about her high enthusiasm), but my wife is human and shows me her warts along with the outwardly joyous personality.


jsmart said:


> The married “friend” that was picking up and dropping off your wife for the 25 hours of pickle ball a week had a wife who’s gut was screaming that something stinks, had to have a sit down with your wife. If that doesn’t tell you that what she’s doing is wrong and unacceptable, I don’t know what to tell you.


First of all, what I said two months ago was: "*One of the guys, who has a great reputation for being trustworthy, lives nearby and has started to offer to drive her to the courts (25 minute drive each way). Wants to be more energy efficient."* There were never any actual car rides. As I went on to say in the thread, I told my wife "it was a bad look" and she agreed. I participated (I go about once a month) and rode with her on that particular occasion...nothing has come up re: carpooling since, until...(see next paragraph). Btw, re: your comment about Mr. Serial Carpooler's (he arranges carpools constantly) wife, she was highly in favor of her husband carpooling with my wife...not sure if you are confusing a lot of this with someone else. 

Here's the new angle: the group is playing a tournament 50 minutes away (plus tolls, etc.) next month. Mr. Church Deacon/Green Energy has apparently offered to drive my wife there (ha, don't ask me how I know this). As I said, not having read so many terrible TAM stories, this guy (yes, he is attractive, funny, rich) is a good guy and his wife supports the carpooling. From what I've read, many of you here will smell trouble brewing. I don't want to be insecure about it, but, lol, you all made me think a lot in the other thread. 


jsmart said:


> Also, I don’t buy the menopause excuse. My wife , who has about average drive and is 54 year old is also menopausal and she’s no way as fit as the way you describe your wife yet she’s down for at least twice a week. I know everyone is different but after so many years on these boards, I smell unfaithfulness that either is happening or has already happened and she’s no longer able to sexually reconnect with you.


I am not naive or in denial. My wife is not having an affair and isn't looking to have one. *That said, I am very interested in all things related to "she’s no longer able to sexually reconnect with you" or "~she's no longer attracted to you"* (she is a horrible liar and tells me I'm good looking, etc.) I think, as was the case with her mom, she just reached a certain age and has no interest in sex and having her body touched beyond a back rub. Yes, she is self-centered enough not to care about my needs beyond some version of duty sex.


----------



## DownButNotOut

CatholicDad said:


> Hey brother, my advice is quit pressuring her, act aloof about sex, but always try and figure out what works.
> 
> My wife enjoys showering with me. Took me twenty years to figure that out. I jump in, talk to her and wash and smile... always develops as it’s relaxing and kids are away. I bring music and she likes the way I look wet and naked (and vice versa).
> 
> When she’s on the couch on her phone and you share a few glasses of her favorite wine and turn on some relaxing music.... what happens then? Refill her glass even when she’s not looking... all is fair in love and war. Keep a private journal of your attempts to relax and woo her... just throw out the resentment.. not helpful.


No offense CD, but that advice sounds like a recipe for 20 more years of married loneliness with a woman who has no intention of facing what she's doing to him.


----------



## CatholicDad

DownButNotOut said:


> No offense CD, but that advice sounds like a recipe for 20 more years of married loneliness with a woman who has no intention of facing what she's doing to him.


None taken. Wine, relaxation, music, and jumping in the shower with her are pretty easy to try though- what can it hurt? Agree that a twenty year investment in this approach would be foolish... unless it works.


----------



## LisaDiane

CatholicDad said:


> I guess reading between the lines I thought it was the whole “reflecting thing” that “CD sees all issues as porn related because HE has such a problem with it”. I’m admittedly ashamed about my own past problems with porn fwiw. If I can help one guy out of the porn lie- think my wasted time on TAM would be well spent.


Not at all, I see it more like, "CD understands the dangers of porn for some people because of what he's experienced". I don't think you have any reason to be ashamed...and I think it's great that you share YOUR perspective. 
I find value in ALL the perspectives, whether I agree with them all the time or not.


----------



## Divinely Favored

LisaDiane said:


> Do you ever need an Estrogen blocker?
> 
> I also believe LD can be a mindset, a (selfishly) chosen mindset. In that case, hormones won't help.


At first i was prescribed Letrozol by FNPC. The fatter you are the more your testosterone is converted tp estrogen. My urologist said stop! If estrogen gets too low you have damage to veins and also sexual problems. He said het the test up and the estrogen will tale care of itself. Quit taking AO and sex got better/ more enjoyable.


----------



## ccpowerslave

CatholicDad said:


> None taken. Wine, relaxation, music, and jumping in the shower with her are pretty easy to try though- what can it hurt? Agree that a twenty year investment in this approach would be foolish... unless it works.


+1 I need to do this more. I went into the master to brush my teeth just as my wife was finishing up her shower and I was dead tired but she was raising the dead so to speak. I need to just jump in there with her one of those times during the week and see what happens.

My wife has a 2 plus hour task she needs to do before she goes to bed. She normally never comes to bed for sex when she has to do this task.

I been working on her multiple times today making out with her, kissing her on the neck, and then “You’re coming to bed later right?” and she goes, “No! Tee hee hee you know I need to do X for work!” So this last time about an hour ago she says, “Well maybe I could try and do some of it now.” Yes…. Yes you could! 

Started on her around 12:15pm then hit her up twice after that. The books on responsive desire tell you to light that fuse early in the day and keep it burning 🔥.


----------



## Divinely Favored

jjj858 said:


> I don’t want to threadjack with my issues too much. But yeah I’ve definitely done a lot of digging and investigating because my ex cheated on me and I ignored red flags then. She’s not talking to anyone else and we share location with each other on iPhone. She comes straight home from work everyday. It’s mainly endless Facebook scrolling and nonstop posting on new Mom groups and baby clothes groups.
> 
> Sometimes she does want to cuddle and watch tv together but always on her terms. I resent it because I feel like I’m used to meet her emotional needs whenever she needs me, but she doesn’t care about my needs as a man. I feel like I’m made out to be some perv just because I want to make love to my wife. During one recent argument she said “what, do you want me to just bend over so you can have your way with me? Maybe you need to get a prostitute” and I couldn’t believe it. I’m always a respectful and loving husband and I’ve never treated her like just a sexual object so I don’t know what that was about.


Ah the memories...i read MMSLP and NMMNG. I dropped weight, became more detatched(what is wrong? Nothing...)hit tge weights and buffed up nicely. She freaked as I had one foot OTD. She thought i was gone with door closed behind me. 

I quit being the beta codependant hubby living for her attention. Something changed in me and i could then see her faults and bad attitudes. She lost a lot of attraction in my eyes back then. I was very much on my way OTD. She did a 180 and became more attentive and i did a 180 and became the man i should have been. Not the good little yes dear anything you want hubby.


----------



## CountryMike

jjj858 said:


> I don’t want to threadjack with my issues too much. But yeah I’ve definitely done a lot of digging and investigating because my ex cheated on me and I ignored red flags then. She’s not talking to anyone else and we share location with each other on iPhone. She comes straight home from work everyday. It’s mainly endless Facebook scrolling and nonstop posting on new Mom groups and baby clothes groups.
> 
> Sometimes she does want to cuddle and watch tv together but always on her terms. I resent it because I feel like I’m used to meet her emotional needs whenever she needs me, but she doesn’t care about my needs as a man. I feel like I’m made out to be some perv just because I want to make love to my wife. During one recent argument she said “what, do you want me to just bend over so you can have your way with me? Maybe you need to get a prostitute” and I couldn’t believe it. I’m always a respectful and loving husband and I’ve never treated her like just a sexual object so I don’t know what that was about.


Harsh.

Best thing is yes dear, just bend over or hop on the table.

See what she does.


----------



## ccpowerslave

BTW she kind of came to bed but didn’t want to get in so she ended up blowing me instead. A satisfactory outcome. The good thing is she is finally understanding how important sex is to her man in the relationship.


----------



## LisaDiane

Divinely Favored said:


> At first i was prescribed Letrozol by FNPC. The fatter you are the more your testosterone is converted tp estrogen. My urologist said stop! If estrogen gets too low you have damage to veins and also sexual problems. He said het the test up and the estrogen will tale care of itself. Quit taking AO and sex got better/ more enjoyable.


That's not what my STBX's Urologist told him...did you ever have your E2 levels checked? He has been on Testosterone injections (2x a week) for 10 years, and two years ago, his Testosterone level was 1000, but his E2 (Estradiol) was 170...that's 3x the healthy level for men!!! And after 7+ years of healthy T levels! We were shocked, but it explained so much.

His doctor started him on a blocker that keeps his E2 around 65, and it made a huge difference for him. High Estrogen is actually dangerous for men and women. It's good for men to have that checked as a part of a regular hormone panel when they supplement with Testosterone.
If you feel good and normal, yours are probably fine, but I'm curious if you ever had it checked.


----------



## LisaDiane

CountryMike said:


> Harsh.
> 
> Best thing is yes dear, just bend over or hop on the table.
> 
> See what she does.


This is PERFECT!!! I actually said this to my STBX when we were arguing about it once...he said, "So what? You just want me to F--k you??"...and I replied, "Pretty much...am I being unreasonable??"...Lol!!

Of course, I was flashing angry eyes at him when I said it, so I wasn't laughing then, but he knew I meant it. 

He didn't care and didn't comply...because he DIDN'T CARE about me at all, he was just trying to shame me into silence.


----------



## Husband2016

I generally don’t reply as I take more in from reading y’all’s replies than responding. And it’s helped me convey to my wife how I feel and what my expectations are. So thank you all for that.

In my mind, sex is the one and only thing that separates me from anyone else with my wife. Going off some of the earlier posts, like @Rowan, I don’t expect my wife to be the well I draw upon to fund my happiness, well-being (physical or emotional), etc. I should be happy in my own skin. 

But there is credence in to @LATERILUS79 saying there must be some drive to connect sexually. While I don’t expect my wife to be the source of my happiness, fulfillment of life, emotional well-being, what have you, through sex, a big source of unhappiness is the lack of meeting sexual needs when there is a mismatch.

I know about all that she needs to feel loved to give sex and he needs sex to give love circle. But there’s a lot more to it than that. But I wholeheartedly expect my spouse or ltr partner to do things for me just because, even when they don’t feel like it. If we all just did things when we felt like it or wanted it, nothing would almost ever get done. I don’t want to or feel like getting up for work, or cleaning, or parenting, but I do it. I’m tired and exhausted too, but I find that extra energy to give that neck massage.

It is when that same opportunity knocks that is continuously ignored for sake of being tired, anxious, stressed, feeling “meh” waiting for the other person to have the “feeling” to whack them in the face until they move on it.

If I am not worthy of that extra effort, then neither are they.


----------



## Husband2016

Put another one way, and an oversimplification, everyone has two buckets. The happy bucket and the unhappy bucket. It is my responsibility to fill my happy bucket - no one else’s. Everyone else fills the unhappy bucket. It is my opinion that a spouse’s “job” is to not fill that unhappy bucket. The less filled that unhappy bucket is, the easier it is for me to fill that happy bucket.


----------



## In Absentia

Husband2016 said:


> I generally don’t reply as I take more in from reading y’all’s replies than responding. And it’s helped me convey to my wife how I feel and what my expectations are. So thank you all for that.
> 
> In my mind, sex is the one and only thing that separates me from anyone else with my wife. Going off some of the earlier posts, like @Rowan, I don’t expect my wife to be the well I draw upon to fund my happiness, well-being (physical or emotional), etc. I should be happy in my own skin.
> 
> But there is credence in to @LATERILUS79 saying there must be some drive to connect sexually. While I don’t expect my wife to be the source of my happiness, fulfillment of life, emotional well-being, what have you, through sex, a big source of unhappiness is the lack of meeting sexual needs when there is a mismatch.
> 
> I know about all that she needs to feel loved to give sex and he needs sex to give love circle. But there’s a lot more to it than that. But I wholeheartedly expect my spouse or ltr partner to do things for me just because, even when they don’t feel like it. If we all just did things when we felt like it or wanted it, nothing would almost ever get done. I don’t want to or feel like getting up for work, or cleaning, or parenting, but I do it. I’m tired and exhausted too, but I find that extra energy to give that neck massage.
> 
> It is when that same opportunity knocks that is continuously ignored for sake of being tired, anxious, stressed, feeling “meh” waiting for the other person to have the “feeling” to whack them in the face until they move on it.
> 
> If I am not worthy of that extra effort, then neither are they.


I feel the pain in your words. I don't really know your situation, but from what you are describing, if you decide to stay, prepare yourself for a long, exhausting ride to nowhere.


----------



## Rus47

LisaDiane said:


> This is PERFECT!!! I actually said this to my STBX when we were arguing about it once...he said, *"So what? You just want me to F--k you??"*...and I replied, "Pretty much...am I being unreasonable??"...Lol!!
> 
> Of course, I was flashing angry eyes at him when I said it, so I wasn't laughing then, but he knew I meant it.
> 
> He didn't care and didn't comply...because he DIDN'T CARE about me at all, he was just trying to shame me into silence.


Your response to his ignorant question is priceless. Seems you are/were in the same place with your STBX as evidently a lot of husbands are with their "wives". It's a shame that there isn't a registry where all of the wives and husbands who prefer keeping cats can get together in sexless marriages, and all of their* abused* spouses can find kindred spirits to enjoy marriage together as it was intended. Reshuffle the deck. Maybe that is the next AP to make a billion dollars.


----------



## Livvie

Isn’t it funny that the reference is always to cats, and never to dogs? Why is that?

It's always crazy cat lady... never crazy dog lady.

WHY


----------



## LisaDiane

Husband2016 said:


> Put another one way, and an oversimplification, everyone has two buckets. The happy bucket and the unhappy bucket. It is my responsibility to fill my happy bucket - no one else’s. Everyone else fills the unhappy bucket. It is my opinion that a spouse’s “job” is to not fill that unhappy bucket. The less filled that unhappy bucket is, the easier it is for me to fill that happy bucket.


I like your analogy here! It's an interesting way to explain and experience relationships...I will have to think about this perspective more!!

One of the main ways I fill MY "happy bucket" is by being in a relationship with someone who cares about me and values me, and wants to share sexual intimacy with ME more than anyone else.


----------



## LisaDiane

Rus47 said:


> Your response to his ignorant question is priceless. Seems you are/were in the same place with your STBX as evidently a lot of husbands are with their "wives". It's a shame that there isn't a registry where all of the wives and husbands who prefer keeping cats can get together in sexless marriages, and all of their* abused* spouses can find kindred spirits to enjoy marriage together as it was intended. Reshuffle the deck. Maybe that is the next AP to make a billion dollars.


WERE.

There is a special relationship for people love eachother but don't want to have sex, it's called "Best Friends". Which is fine, but let's call it what it is.

And my partner shouldn't expect me to focus all my sexual desire on only HIM when he has no interest in me sexually. That's unfair and impossible, and I won't even pretend that I believe that's acceptable or apologize for my expectations. I don't believe anyone should.


----------



## In Absentia

LisaDiane said:


> I like your analogy here! It's an interesting way to explain and experience relationships...I will have to think about this perspective more!!
> 
> One of the main ways I fill MY "happy bucket" is by being in a relationship with someone who cares about me and values me, and wants to share sexual intimacy with ME more than anyone else.


I think what you say is normal, the buckets a bit less, IMO...


----------



## Husband2016

In Absentia said:


> I feel the pain in your words. I don't really know your situation, but from what you are describing, if you decide to stay, prepare yourself for a long, exhausting ride to nowhere.


3 years ago, your posts are some I looked for in how I didn’t want it to go, again. My situation was 6 years ago (circa 2014-2015) coming out of a divorce with a 15 month dry spell, finding my second wife to have it hot and heavy. After the honeymoon period it waned greatly due to child birth and other factors. Around 2017 that period was all but just sexually dry. 

In the years since, I finally had her admit it was an important part of our marriage and she’s actually tried to spruce it up. We average once a week give or take now, which is a far cry from where we were and where I’d like to be. This forum has helped me go from arguments with her to civil deeper conversations as to what went wrong and how to fix it. Of course, having a willing wife that is willing to admit and commit yo fixing it helps.


----------



## ccpowerslave

I can’t speak for anyone else but despite quite a while of me telling her how important it is to me she still doesn’t get it.

I really don’t understand why it’s a major drain on her to come to bed and screw but either:

1. She doesn’t want to at all.

2. She forgets something that is the same everyday, but doesn’t forget other things that are the same everyday like brushing teeth, taking a shower, etc…. Possible, but unlikely.

3. ?

For whatever reason she will just not go every day, at least not by herself.

So I guess I will have to try telling her early in the day around lunch every day, hey I’d like to have sex with you this evening. Then there is no ambiguity and #2 is taken care of.

If she ever says she is tired or sick or she just doesn’t want to, that’s fine. I think there might be benefit in making things crystal clear.

I have no idea what she did last night instead of coming to bed. It’s a regular thing anyway for her to come to bed, have sex, and then get up and do other stuff. So what was going on in her head? I honestly have no clue, did she reject me on purpose? Did she even know she was rejecting me?

I think I will just ask her what she did last night and explain and maybe then I’ll gain some insight.


----------



## LisaDiane

ccpowerslave said:


> I can’t speak for anyone else but despite quite a while of me telling her how important it is to me she still doesn’t get it.
> 
> I really don’t understand why it’s a major drain on her to come to bed and screw but either:
> 
> 1. She doesn’t want to at all.
> 
> 2. She forgets something that is the same everyday, but doesn’t forget other things that are the same everyday like brushing teeth, taking a shower, etc…. Possible, but unlikely.
> 
> 3. ?
> 
> For whatever reason she will just not go every day, at least not by herself.
> 
> So I guess I will have to try telling her early in the day around lunch every day, hey I’d like to have sex with you this evening. Then there is no ambiguity and #2 is taken care of.
> 
> If she ever says she is tired or sick or she just doesn’t want to, that’s fine. I think there might be benefit in making things crystal clear.
> 
> I have no idea what she did last night instead of coming to bed. It’s a regular thing anyway for her to come to bed, have sex, and then get up and do other stuff. So what was going on in her head? I honestly have no clue, did she reject me on purpose? Did she even know she was rejecting me?
> 
> I think I will just ask her what she did last night and explain and maybe then I’ll gain some insight.


I honestly don't understand it either. I'm not saying I think people are lying when they say they would rather fold laundry, do dishes, talk on the phone or whatever else instead of having sex, or have some ulterior motive for refusing (I'm sure some do)...I am saying I just don't get it.

Is it really SO unpleasant being touched by someone that you say you love?? I used to say to my STBX...it's not like I'm asking you to spend all day vacuuming or cleaning the house...or asking you to shovel horse crap...or asking you to weed in the garden with me...!!!!! I'm asking you to lay there for less than an hour a day and let me touch you to make you feel good and then let you touch me in special and intimate ways that feel good...WHY is that such a sacrifice...??

WHY do the moon and stars have to align in the perfect position for that to be a chosen and welcome way to spend 30-60 minutes??


----------



## In Absentia

Husband2016 said:


> 3 years ago, your posts are some I looked for in how I didn’t want it to go, again. My situation was 6 years ago (circa 2014-2015) coming out of a divorce with a 15 month dry spell, finding my second wife to have it hot and heavy. After the honeymoon period it waned greatly due to child birth and other factors. Around 2017 that period was all but just sexually dry.
> 
> In the years since, I finally had her admit it was an important part of our marriage and she’s actually tried to spruce it up. We average once a week give or take now, which is a far cry from where we were and where I’d like to be. This forum has helped me go from arguments with her to civil deeper conversations as to what went wrong and how to fix it. Of course, having a willing wife that is willing to admit and commit yo fixing it helps.


Well, you know what happened to me now... no sex at all. No marriage actually. I pushed and I got duty sex (twice a month - once a week would have been great), then when I wasn't needed, I got the boot. There are some cases where people have turned it around, but these cases are usually mildly dysfunctional and fixable. Granted, my wife has mental issues and this has contributed greatly to the collapse of the marriage, but in the last 15 years I've learnt one important thing: there is no point in trying and fix a low libido partner. If the mismatch is big, no 180, therapy, counselling will fix it. There is no point in wasting years of your life trying to get to the bottom of it. Accept it or leave and find a more compatible partner. I've had no sex for the last 3 years and I'm happy because I don't have to endure such a humiliating, soul-destroying, confidence-shattering ordeal. Yes, I'm full of regrets for what I have done, but I've left my hell behind. No more tears, no more anger, no more tension, no more rejection. I'm myself again.


----------



## ElwoodPDowd

Livvie said:


> Isn’t it funny that the reference is always to cats, and never to dogs? Why is that?
> It's always crazy cat lady... never crazy dog lady.
> WHY


From personal experience I've only met one 'dog lady', but about five 'cat ladies'.
I'm trying to create a new 'rabbit man' meme, I've already got three.
It's only fair we men get to fill a house with pets as well, you know, equality and all that.


----------



## LisaDiane

In Absentia said:


> Well, you know what happened to me now... no sex at all. No marriage actually. I pushed and I got duty sex (twice a month - once a week would have been great), then when I wasn't needed, I got the boot. There are some cases where people have turned it around, but these cases are usually mildly dysfunctional and fixable. Granted, my wife has mental issues and this has contributed greatly to the collapse of the marriage, but in the last 15 years I've learnt one important thing: there is no point in trying and fix a low libido partner. If the mismatch is big, no 180, therapy, counselling will fix it. There is no point in wasting years of your life trying to get to the bottom of it. Accept it or leave and find a more compatible partner. I've had no sex for the last 3 years and I'm happy because I don't have to endure such a humiliating, soul-destroying, confidence-shattering ordeal. Yes, I'm full of regrets for what I have done, but I've left my hell behind. No more tears, no more anger, no more tension, no more rejection. I'm myself again.


I hope you don't regret anything too much...I think you did the best you could to resolve your situation and fix your marriage with what you knew at the time. Hindsight is 20/20...I know the feeling of regret for wasting too much time, but that's called HOPE...and I didn't want to regret giving up too soon either! 

You are still young!! If you can ever extricate yourself from your living arrangement, there is still plenty of time for you to create a life of excitement and love with another person!


----------



## ElwoodPDowd

In Absentia said:


> Well, you know what happened to me now... no sex at all. No marriage actually. I pushed and I got duty sex (twice a month - once a week would have been great), then when I wasn't needed, I got the boot. There are some cases where people have turned it around, but these cases are usually mildly dysfunctional and fixable. Granted, my wife has mental issues and this has contributed greatly to the collapse of the marriage, but in the last 15 years I've learnt one important thing: there is no point in trying and fix a low libido partner. If the mismatch is big, no 180, therapy, counselling will fix it. There is no point in wasting years of your life trying to get to the bottom of it.


No, I think you're totally normal, and agree it's not something that can generally be fixed.
My Brit wife (30 wasted years) was a once a month (with me) girl, and I would have been totally happy with once a week. Then I got dumped anyway (same as you), and found a five times a day girl (total nightmare for me), then found a much more doable once a day woman (three times a day when she was looking to get pregnant), then as we got older (11 years now) we've aged and settled to 2-3 times a week.

Best to move on and find a partner that's more comparable.
I don't think 'mental illness' is a problem, every woman I've ever lived with appeared to be mentally unstable (usually violent).


----------



## ccpowerslave

LisaDiane said:


> WHY do the moon and stars have to align in the perfect position for that to be a chosen and welcome way to spend 30-60 minutes??


I mean she did tell me the reason when I asked, she said she never thinks about sex and it’s not a priority for her.

So I have been telling her and showing her repeatedly I DO think about it all the time and it’s a high priority for me. I think that would be enough to overcome any aversion to it but apparently not.

I have gone on an afternoon walk with her as of yesterday 278 days in a row.

She will fall off the wagon if it’s just her, so even on a day like yesterday where I boxed and worked really hard and was super tired, she waits until it is almost dark and then wants to go on a walk and guess what? She hasn’t moved from her chair all day so to get the steps it will take half an hour. I just do it, because it’s for her and because her being healthy and happy improves my life too. Did I want to do it? No. I made it a priority for me because she is a priority for me.

So yeah…


----------



## BigDaddyNY

LisaDiane said:


> I honestly don't understand it either. I'm not saying I think people are lying when they say they would rather fold laundry, do dishes, talk on the phone or whatever else instead of having sex, or have some ulterior motive for refusing (I'm sure some do)...I am saying I just don't get it.
> 
> Is it really SO unpleasant being touched by someone that you say you love?? I used to say to my STBX...it's not like I'm asking you to spend all day vacuuming or cleaning the house...or asking you to shovel horse crap...or asking you to weed in the garden with me...!!!!! I'm asking you to lay there for less than an hour a day and let me touch you to make you feel good and then let you touch me in special and intimate ways that feel good...WHY is that such a sacrifice...??
> 
> WHY do the moon and stars have to align in the perfect position for that to be a chosen and welcome way to spend 30-60 minutes??


This is so true. I can't think of anything that gives you more physical and emotional pleasure than being intimate and making love to the person you've chosen to spend the rest of your life with. Why would someone avoid that, sometimes at all costs?


----------



## ElwoodPDowd

BigDaddyNY said:


> I can't think of anything that gives you more physical and emotional pleasure than being intimate and making love to the person you've chosen to spend the rest of your life with.


Drinking beer while watching football with my pals is way better .............
And lasts ten times longer.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

ElwoodPDowd said:


> Drinking beer while watching football with my pals is way better .............
> And lasts ten times longer.


But don't you want something to do during halftime


----------



## LisaDiane

BigDaddyNY said:


> But don't you want something to do during halftime


Lolol!!!!! My STBX hates football...that should have been my first red flag...Lol!


----------



## LisaDiane

ElwoodPDowd said:


> Drinking beer while watching football with my pals is way better .............
> And lasts ten times longer.


You are certainly not painting a very appealing picture of yourself... 
Just kidding!!! (or not...)


----------



## LisaDiane

ccpowerslave said:


> I mean she did tell me the reason when I asked, she said she never thinks about sex and it’s not a priority for her.
> 
> So I have been telling her and showing her repeatedly I DO think about it all the time and it’s a high priority for me. I think that would be enough to overcome any aversion to it but apparently not.
> 
> I have gone on an afternoon walk with her as of yesterday 278 days in a row.
> 
> She will fall off the wagon if it’s just her, so even on a day like yesterday where I boxed and worked really hard and was super tired, she waits until it is almost dark and then wants to go on a walk and guess what? She hasn’t moved from her chair all day so to get the steps it will take half an hour. I just do it, because it’s for her and because her being healthy and happy improves my life too. Did I want to do it? No. I made it a priority for me because she is a priority for me.
> 
> So yeah…


Can you identify what is the most frustrating part of her actions (or inactions) for you? Then you could find a way to be specific if you decide to address it with her -- "this is what is a problem for me, and this is what I need to feel cared about...what do you think?"


----------



## LisaDiane

ElwoodPDowd said:


> No, I think you're totally normal, and agree it's not something that can generally be fixed.
> My Brit wife (30 wasted years) was a once a month (with me) girl, and I would have been totally happy with once a week. Then I got dumped anyway (same as you), and found a five times a day girl (total nightmare for me), then found a much more doable once a day woman (three times a day when she was looking to get pregnant), then as we got older (11 years now) we've aged and settled to 2-3 times a week.
> 
> Best to move on and find a partner that's more comparable.
> I don't think 'mental illness' is a problem, every woman I've ever lived with appeared to be mentally unstable (usually violent).


EVERY woman seemed violently mentally unstable when she was with you?

Hmm...interesting! I wonder what the common denominator was with all of them...??? Lol!!


----------



## ccpowerslave

LisaDiane said:


> Can you identify what is the most frustrating part of her actions (or inactions) for you? Then you could find a way to be specific if you decide to address it with her -- "this is what is a problem for me, and this is what I need to feel cared about...what do you think?"


I think so. It put me in a foul mood this morning. 

I will certainly consider this.


----------



## LisaDiane

ccpowerslave said:


> I think so. It put me in a foul mood this morning.
> 
> I will certainly consider this.


This is what many LD spouses don't understand (neither do the people who defend them)...the act of sex is mostly physical, but the refusal to have sex strikes us in a mostly emotional place. 

So it's not the lack of physical release that hurts the HD partner and can harm the relationship...it's what the emotional intent of the refusing partner means to the one being denied. That's why no one can define the "fair" number of times per day or week or month that is reasonable to expect sex for anyone except themselves (as I've seen some posters try to do on these threads)...it's NOT the number of times we get physical release - it's the number of times we feel emotional rejection.

And people who haven't experienced prolonged, repeated rejection from their monogamous partner have NO idea how horrible that feeling is.


----------



## Livvie

Well, I'm confused now. There's another thread going, and now _several men_ have chimed in agreeing that marriage isn't necessarily by definition a sexual relationship, and it's fine if one spouse isn't interested in sex with the other. That it's okay for one of the partners to just opt out.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Livvie said:


> Well, I'm confused now. There's another thread going, and now _several men_ have chimed in agreeing that marriage isn't necessarily by definition a sexual relationship, and it's fine if one spouse isn't interested in sex with the other. That it's okay for one of the partners to just opt out.


At least one of those guys is (to paraphrase) saying just have sex outside the marriage. Clearly an odd bird that one. I guess in that case sex in marriage is not important to him but sex period is.

So maybe they’re saying the marriage part isn’t important but sex is anyway.

Statistically out of HD/LD pairs 20% of the LDs are men. They’re probably not on TAM because as has been pointed out, from the LD’s perspective there is no problem. They’re maybe made aware their partner has a problem but in and of itself they’re happy with the status quo.


----------



## Divinely Favored

LisaDiane said:


> That's not what my STBX's Urologist told him...did you ever have your E2 levels checked? He has been on Testosterone injections (2x a week) for 10 years, and two years ago, his Testosterone level was 1000, but his E2 (Estradiol) was 170...that's 3x the healthy level for men!!! And after 7+ years of healthy T levels! We were shocked, but it explained so much.
> 
> His doctor started him on a blocker that keeps his E2 around 65, and it made a huge difference for him. High Estrogen is actually dangerous for men and women. It's good for men to have that checked as a part of a regular hormone panel when they supplement with Testosterone.
> If you feel good and normal, yours are probably fine, but I'm curious if you ever had it checked.


I get full panel every 6 months. My E2 level was in single digits. He said it can do serious damage to blood veins if too low. Estrogen plays major role in the elasticity of the vein walls.


----------



## In Absentia

Livvie said:


> Well, I'm confused now. There's another thread going, and now _several men_ have chimed in agreeing that marriage isn't necessarily by definition a sexual relationship, and it's fine if one spouse isn't interested in sex with the other. That it's okay for one of the partners to just opt out.


I said it was ok if they _both_ agreed. Going to catch up now...


----------



## In Absentia

ccpowerslave said:


> At least one of those guys is (to paraphrase) saying just have sex outside the marriage. Clearly an odd bird that one. I guess in that case sex in marriage is not important to him but sex period is.
> 
> So maybe they’re saying the marriage part isn’t important but sex is anyway.
> 
> Statistically out of HD/LD pairs 20% of the LDs are men. They’re probably not on TAM because as has been pointed out, from the LD’s perspective there is no problem. They’re maybe made aware their partner has a problem but in and of itself they’re happy with the status quo.


If the husband accepted it and he is ok with it, what's the problem? She also said she would turn a blind eye if he found sex somewhere else. So, yes, the fact that the physical aspect is turn off for her is somewhat shallow (although she is brave enough to admit it), but she is not stopping her husband to having sex, she is not holding him as prisoner in his own marriage, like many other partners do when they withhold sex in a monogamous relationship.


----------



## ccpowerslave

In Absentia said:


> If the husband accepted it and he is ok with it, what's the problem? She also said she would turn a blind eye if he found sex somewhere else. So, yes, the fact that the physical aspect is turn off for her is somewhat shallow (although she is brave enough to admit it), but she is not stopping her husband to having sex, she is not holding him as prisoner in his own marriage, like many other partners do when they withhold sex in a monogamous relationship.


That thread I have no issues with it whatsoever.

I don’t even have issues with my own marriage in that a lot of the issues we had were caused at least in part by me or my own inaction. That’s my fault.

So in Sojna’s case if her husband has been sitting there angry that he hasn’t been getting any for 6 years that’s his fault, as you rightly point out.


----------



## tech-novelist

jjj858 said:


> I feel like I’m made out to be some perv just because I want to make love to my wife. During one recent argument she said “what, do you want me to just bend over so you can have your way with me? Maybe you need to get a prostitute” and I couldn’t believe it. I’m always a respectful and loving husband and I’ve never treated her like just a sexual object so I don’t know what that was about.


I think the correct response to that question is something like "I'll just leave $100 on the nightstand then."


----------



## ElwoodPDowd

tech-novelist said:


> I think the correct response to that question is something like "I'll just leave $100 on the nightstand then."


That's too much.
I always want value for money, and compare the prices of things that give me equal pleasure.
I like beer, and if choosing between sex and 10 beers ........ I choose sex.
But when you give me the choice between sex and 50 beers ..... I'd choose the 50 beers.

IMHO the break even point is around 30 beers.


----------



## tech-novelist

LisaDiane said:


> EVERY woman seemed violently mentally unstable when she was with you?
> 
> Hmm...interesting! I wonder what the common denominator was with all of them...??? Lol!!


They were all female?


----------



## tech-novelist

ElwoodPDowd said:


> That's too much.
> I always want value for money, and compare the prices of things that give me equal pleasure.
> I like beer, and if choosing between sex and 10 beers ........ I choose sex.
> But when you give me the choice between sex and 50 beers ..... I'd choose the 50 beers.
> 
> IMHO the break even point is around 30 beers.


"We've agreed on what you are, now we're just ****ering about the price."


----------



## ccpowerslave

Oh so I did find out what was better:

Scrolling through Facebook while watching Graham Norton show old episodes on DVR.

🤨

Me: Water > Sex > Food > other stuff
Her: …Facebook > BBC talk show pre-recorded > ??? Today’s Weather ??? > Sex


----------



## In Absentia

ccpowerslave said:


> Oh so I did find out what was better:
> 
> Scrolling through Facebook while watching Graham Norton show old episodes on DVR.
> 
> 🤨
> 
> Me: Water > Sex > Food > other stuff
> Her: …Facebook > BBC talk show pre-recorded > ??? Today’s Weather ??? > Sex


Today's Weather is just the weather forecast on TV...


----------



## ccpowerslave

In Absentia said:


> Today's Weather is just the weather forecast on TV...


Hahaha… well she definitely likes the weather forecast on TV, mostly complaining about how it is wrong.


----------



## In Absentia

ccpowerslave said:


> So in Sojna’s case if her husband has been sitting there angry that he hasn’t been getting any for 6 years that’s his fault, as you rightly point out.


We don't know that Sonja's husband has been sitting there angry.


----------



## ccpowerslave

In Absentia said:


> We don't know that Sonja's husband has been sitting there angry.


We don’t which is why I said IF. She seems like a pretty unique person, maybe he is too and they sit together contemplating the 2nd law of thermodynamics and sex never comes up. More power to them!


----------



## In Absentia

ccpowerslave said:


> Hahaha… well she definitely likes the weather forecast on TV, mostly complaining about how it is wrong.


Sorry, I thought you put ????? because you thought it was some kind of British show? But you were puzzled by it... well, the weather seems more interesting than sex and Graham Norton is gay...


----------



## ccpowerslave

In Absentia said:


> Sorry, I thought you put ????? because you thought it was some kind of British show?


Haha no. I was just thinking there was any number of higher priority items for her in there and thinking discussion of the weather might rank higher.


----------



## In Absentia

ccpowerslave said:


> We don’t which is why I said IF.


Sorry, I misread it...


----------



## In Absentia

ccpowerslave said:


> Haha no. I was just thinking there was any number of higher priority items for her in there and thinking discussion of the weather might rank higher.


Well, I like the weather forecast... he is my favourite broadcaster...


----------



## In Absentia

Did I kill the thread?


----------



## LisaDiane

Divinely Favored said:


> I get full panel every 6 months. My E2 level was in single digits. He said it can do serious damage to blood veins if too low. Estrogen plays major role in the elasticity of the vein walls.


That's terrific!! My STBX has to have a blocker to keep it in the normal range for men, so your body is doing great on it's own!


----------



## LisaDiane

tech-novelist said:


> They were all female?


Lolol!!!! Oh FUNNY!


----------



## LisaDiane

In Absentia said:


> If the husband accepted it and he is ok with it, what's the problem? She also said she would turn a blind eye if he found sex somewhere else. So, yes, the fact that the physical aspect is turn off for her is somewhat shallow (although she is brave enough to admit it), but she is not stopping her husband to having sex, she is not holding him as prisoner in his own marriage, like many other partners do when they withhold sex in a monogamous relationship.


I completely agree with this...although I don't know if she is admitting it as much as extolling it, and I don't know if she's being brave exactly - I detect some notes of superiority or conceit in how she views people who think sex is important. I could be wrong, and it doesn't matter to me what her opinions are, as long as they work for her (which they do).


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

Husband2016 said:


> Put another one way, and an oversimplification, everyone has two buckets. The happy bucket and the unhappy bucket. It is my responsibility to fill my happy bucket - no one else’s. Everyone else fills the unhappy bucket. It is my opinion that a spouse’s “job” is to not fill that unhappy bucket. The less filled that unhappy bucket is, the easier it is for me to fill that happy bucket.


My partner not meeting my needs is more like holes being poked in my happy bucket. Sabotage that makes it impossible to fill. Lots of things in life pokes holes in it, but the person who vowed to be by my side and have my back should not be one of them.



LisaDiane said:


> I hope you don't regret anything too much...I think you did the best you could to resolve your situation and fix your marriage with what you knew at the time. Hindsight is 20/20...I know the feeling of regret for wasting too much time, but that's called HOPE...and I didn't want to regret giving up too soon either!


That's the big kicker, right? We do the best we can with the knowledge we have at the time. When I first married, I thought everybody had about the same level of desire for sex, and thought about it about the same way I did. Someone who wanted it way more than me would have been just as baffling to me as someone who wanted it way less than me. Same thing with integrity. I thought the people who created the divorce statistics were just selfish jerks who were easily avoidable if you had any brains. I just blithely assumed my partner had the same level of integrity I did, and would manage the ups and downs of life, including waxing and waning of sexual frequency, because of that commitment.

It took the demise of my marriage for me to ditch the relentless idealism of my youth.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

LisaDiane said:


> This is what many LD spouses don't understand (neither do the people who defend them)...the act of sex is mostly physical, but the refusal to have sex strikes us in a mostly emotional place.
> 
> So it's not the lack of physical release that hurts the HD partner and can harm the relationship...it's what the emotional intent of the refusing partner means to the one being denied. That's why no one can define the "fair" number of times per day or week or month that is reasonable to expect sex for anyone except themselves (as I've seen some posters try to do on these threads)...it's NOT the number of times we get physical release - it's the number of times we feel emotional rejection.
> 
> And people who haven't experienced prolonged, repeated rejection from their monogamous partner have NO idea how horrible that feeling is.


I imagine the same thing would happen from the LD perspective though? That the repeated requests for sex they don't want strikes them in a mostly emotional place? That's what the problem is, for as much as the HD person says they don't feel loved by their partner when there is no sex, the LD person doesn't feel loved by their partner when there is pressure for sex they don't want. So then they both run around feeling unloved.

It's taken me years on TAM to actually understand this.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

ccpowerslave said:


> Me: Water > Sex > Food > other stuff
> Her: …Facebook > BBC talk show pre-recorded > ??? Today’s Weather ??? > Sex


I'm such a problem-solver, I really want to know what she says when you ask her why sex is so far down on her priority list.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I'm such a problem-solver, I really want to know what she says when you ask her why sex is so far down on her priority list.


She would say she never thinks about it at all.

This is extremely confusing for me.

So after getting blanked and complaining about it last night she reduced me to putty in her hands. All my favorite stuff she initiated on me and did all of it 10/10. I was going to pop before her and she says no no no…

So I checked with her and she was like yes that was amazing and a very good orgasm for me. I was like damn lady you should do that every day that was HOTTTTT.

Anyway she already forgot. So this morning I was like girl what you did last night HOLY ****!!! I bet you she will have forgotten already.

She literally never thinks about it.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

ccpowerslave said:


> She would say she never thinks about it at all.
> 
> This is extremely confusing for me.
> 
> So after getting blanked and complaining about it last night she reduced me to putty in her hands. All my favorite stuff she initiated on me and did all of it 10/10. I was going to pop before her and she says no no no…
> 
> So I checked with her and she was like yes that was amazing and a very good orgasm for me. I was like damn lady you should do that every day that was HOTTTTT.
> 
> Anyway she already forgot. So this morning I was like girl what you did last night HOLY ****!!! I bet you she will have forgotten already.
> 
> She literally never thinks about it.


Sounds awesome! Anyways, the not thinking about it sounds like responsive desire? Do you keep her on a low simmer throughout the day, or just expect her to flip a switch and be ready to go from cold start?


----------



## ccpowerslave

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Sounds awesome! Anyways, the not thinking about it sounds like responsive desire? Do you keep her on a low simmer throughout the day, or just expect her to flip a switch and be ready to go from cold start?


Both. I have managed to convert her over from a low simmer where she would have been a no. 

Like a couple minutes ago (we’re watching TV) and The Rock comes on Hulu. I know she likes The Rock. I say well I am not jacked like him and then I show her my arms. She says yeah but your top arm where it meets your biceps that is sexy.

I say that’s why I do the 60lb dumbbell curls, it’s for you. Every rep I am like this one is for you honey. All that boxing that does the deltoids. She says oh yes.

Going to try and convert on that tonight.


----------



## Divinely Favored

LisaDiane said:


> This is what many LD spouses don't understand (neither do the people who defend them)...the act of sex is mostly physical, but the refusal to have sex strikes us in a mostly emotional place.
> 
> So it's not the lack of physical release that hurts the HD partner and can harm the relationship...it's what the emotional intent of the refusing partner means to the one being denied. That's why no one can define the "fair" number of times per day or week or month that is reasonable to expect sex for anyone except themselves (as I've seen some posters try to do on these threads)...it's NOT the number of times we get physical release - it's the number of times we feel emotional rejection.
> 
> And people who haven't experienced prolonged, repeated rejection from their monogamous partner have NO idea how horrible that feeling is.


That is it....it is the rejection of you as a person and lover. It is tantamount to the LD spouse saying you are not worthy of my love nor my time.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I imagine the same thing would happen from the LD perspective though? That the repeated requests for sex they don't want strikes them in a mostly emotional place? That's what the problem is, for as much as the HD person says they don't feel loved by their partner when there is no sex, the LD person doesn't feel loved by their partner when there is pressure for sex they don't want. So then they both run around feeling unloved.
> 
> It's taken me years on TAM to actually understand this.


So their spouse wanthing to feel emotionally connected and pleasure them makes them feel unloved????

Now it is all clear as mud.


----------



## LisaDiane

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I imagine the same thing would happen from the LD perspective though? That the repeated requests for sex they don't want strikes them in a mostly emotional place? That's what the problem is, for as much as the HD person says they don't feel loved by their partner when there is no sex, the LD person doesn't feel loved by their partner when there is pressure for sex they don't want. So then they both run around feeling unloved.
> 
> It's taken me years on TAM to actually understand this.


Absolutely NOT, I am talking about rejection...being pressured for sex is not the same thing at all. There can be other negative feelings for the LD partner, but you cannot equate what the HD partner feels with them. 

I have spoken to several LD people, and that is never anything they say they feel.

I am not surprised that you and I don't agree on this topic, because I was pretty upset by your post several days ago that specifically said my partner giving me sex when I asked and he did want to was me ASSAULTING him.
Based on that, I'm not sure this is something we can discuss and come to any mutual understanding on.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

LisaDiane said:


> I am not surprised that you and I don't agree on this topic, because I was pretty upset by your post several days ago that specifically said my partner giving me sex when I asked and he did want to was me ASSAULTING him.
> Based on that, I'm not sure this is something we can discuss and come to any mutual understanding on.


I am not sure what post you are referring to, sorry. If he wanted to do it, of course it's not assault.

It's assault when the person uses force or coercion or bullying or intimidation, etc.


----------



## LisaDiane

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I am not sure what post you are referring to, sorry. If he wanted to do it, of course it's not assault.
> 
> It's assault when the person uses force or coercion or bullying or intimidation, etc.


That was a typo, I meant HE DIDN'T want to have sex with me, but through discussions and me "coercing" him, he would give me pity sex. And you called that assault.

Post #232


Hopeful Cynic said:


> Sex is always going to be limited by the LD person. *Unwanted sex is assault, whether it's gained by whining (sulking and being unpleasant to be around unless sex is achieved), coercion (I did the dishes, now you do the sexing) or threats (more sex or it's divorce).* So going into a marriage, both partners should be ready for the LD partner to control the frequency. But there are no doubt loving things the HD partner can do to increase it, like pulling their weight around the household chores and finances, understanding how to manipulate responsive desire, staying fit/attractive and confident, etc.


Just so you know, when I told him the marriage would be over if there was a lack of sex, it wasn't a "threat", it was a WARNING, a PROMISE...and I kept it.

I view his refusal to meet my sexual needs as an assault against our marriage (and connection) and a breaking of HIS vows. Especially because there was absolutely NO reason for him to refuse, except that he didn't feel like it was important...and didn't CARE that I did. And his treatment of me over it was a form of emotional abuse.


----------



## In Absentia

LisaDiane said:


> I completely agree with this...although I don't know if she is admitting it as much as extolling it, and I don't know if she's being brave exactly - I detect some notes of superiority or conceit in how she views people who think sex is important. I could be wrong, and it doesn't matter to me what her opinions are, as long as they work for her (which they do).


I don't know if she feel superior about not seeing sex as important... I think it's just her spiritual approach. She does come across a bit arrogant, though, but it's probably not on purpose.


----------



## In Absentia

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I imagine the same thing would happen from the LD perspective though? That the repeated requests for sex they don't want strikes them in a mostly emotional place? That's what the problem is, for as much as the HD person says they don't feel loved by their partner when there is no sex, the LD person doesn't feel loved by their partner when there is pressure for sex they don't want. So then they both run around feeling unloved.
> 
> It's taken me years on TAM to actually understand this.


Totally correct. I totally agree with you. I understood it too late.


----------



## In Absentia

LisaDiane said:


> That was a typo, I meant HE DIDN'T want to have sex with me, but through discussions and me "coercing" him, he would give me pity sex. And you called that assault.
> 
> Post #232
> 
> Just so you know, when I told him the marriage would be over if there was a lack of sex, it wasn't a "threat", it was a WARNING, a PROMISE...and I kept it.
> 
> I view his refusal to meet my sexual needs as an assault against our marriage (and connection) and a breaking of HIS vows. Especially because there was absolutely NO reason for him to refuse, except that he didn't feel like it was important...and didn't CARE that I did. And his treatment of me over it was a form of emotional abuse.


Of course, if he didn't care and didn't compromise, then it is abuse. But trying to see it from an LD perspective... I went through a short period of my life when I lost my libido. Completely. I don't know why. It lasted about 3 days. Boy, what a revelation that was...


----------



## LisaDiane

In Absentia said:


> I don't know if she feel superior about not seeing sex as important... I think it's just her spiritual approach. She does come across a bit arrogant, though, but it's probably not on purpose.


In almost her first post about it, she snidely said she was glad she wasn't addicted to it, because it was a weakness. Or something like that. I wonder if her "spirituality" is a wall to hide behind, as well. It's hard to tell because she is SO emotionally remote.


----------



## In Absentia

LisaDiane said:


> In almost her first post about it, she snidely said she was glad she wasn't addicted to it, because it was a weakness. Or something like that. I wonder if her "spirituality" is a wall to hide behind, as well. It's hard to tell because she is SO emotionally remote.


Maybe it's an Austrian thing...  I think she was referring to the addiction, more than sex, but I could be wrong.


----------



## LisaDiane

In Absentia said:


> Of course, if he didn't care and didn't compromise, then it is abuse. But trying to see it from an LD perspective... I went through a short period of my life when I lost my libido. Completely. I don't know why. It lasted about 3 days. Boy, what a revelation that was...


I had MANY, much longer periods when I lost my physical need for sex...but I always had the emotional need to connect physically and sexually, and being desired as a woman and touched always created physical desire for me.


----------



## LATERILUS79

LisaDiane said:


> I honestly don't understand it either. I'm not saying I think people are lying when they say they would rather fold laundry, do dishes, talk on the phone or whatever else instead of having sex, or have some ulterior motive for refusing (I'm sure some do)...I am saying I just don't get it.
> 
> Is it really SO unpleasant being touched by someone that you say you love?? I used to say to my STBX...it's not like I'm asking you to spend all day vacuuming or cleaning the house...or asking you to shovel horse crap...or asking you to weed in the garden with me...!!!!! I'm asking you to lay there for less than an hour a day and let me touch you to make you feel good and then let you touch me in special and intimate ways that feel good...WHY is that such a sacrifice...??
> 
> WHY do the moon and stars have to align in the perfect position for that to be a chosen and welcome way to spend 30-60 minutes??


😂😂😂 I have to laugh at the 30-60 minutes part. Sorry. I’m not like the regular TAM men that can all roll PIV for 3 hours straight. If my wife said “Is it too much to ask for me to let me touch you and make you feel pleasure for an hour a day” - just the thought of us doing that much foreplay and REALLY enjoying each other for an hour definitely means I’m lasting 5-10 minutes tops. Of course, I’ll work for an hour on my wife if she wants to. I enjoy giving her pleasure as much as receiving.


----------



## ccpowerslave

LATERILUS79 said:


> 😂😂😂 I have to laugh at the 30-60 minutes part. Sorry. I’m not like the regular TAM men that can all roll PIV for 3 hours straight. If my wife said “Is it too much to ask for me to let me touch you and make you feel pleasure for an hour a day” - just the thought of us doing that much foreplay and REALLY enjoying each other for an hour definitely means I’m lasting 5-10 minutes tops. Of course, I’ll work for an hour on my wife if she wants to. I enjoy giving her pleasure as much as receiving.


Same. Although it’s not uncommon for her to lay on my chest and I rub her back, shoulders, neck, etc and just enjoy touching her for half an hour. I like it a lot.

In terms of actual PIV she wants me to go for as long as she needs and that’s it. Anything much over the figure you cited is too much for her.


----------



## LisaDiane

LATERILUS79 said:


> 😂😂😂 I have to laugh at the 30-60 minutes part. Sorry. I’m not like the regular TAM men that can all roll PIV for 3 hours straight. If my wife said “Is it too much to ask for me to let me touch you and make you feel pleasure for an hour a day” - just the thought of us doing that much foreplay and REALLY enjoying each other for an hour definitely means I’m lasting 5-10 minutes tops. Of course, I’ll work for an hour on my wife if she wants to. I enjoy giving her pleasure as much as receiving.


Lol!!! Well, I was trying to stay within the maximum general time I could imagine a couple wanting sexual contact that I've heard on here...if I had put 15 minutes a day, someone would have remarked on it being not enough time to be worth it. 
I certainly didn't mean PIV for that long!! Lol!

But if 30-60 minutes maximum per day is spent on being intimate together, I still don't think that is too much...people sit for hours staring at their phones in bed or on the couch at night. Why can't a fraction of that time be spent on being sexual??
Especially because, as you pointed out, it's usually not even close to 60 minutes!


----------



## ccpowerslave

LisaDiane said:


> But if 30-60 minutes maximum per day is spent on being intimate together, I still don't think that is too much...


Neither do I. I like laying with her and holding her and just touching her period. She likes it too which is a nice bonus.


----------



## Rus47

LisaDiane said:


> Lol!!! Well, I was trying to stay within the maximum general time I could imagine a couple wanting sexual contact that I've heard on here...if I had put 15 minutes a day, someone would have remarked on it being not enough time to be worth it.
> I certainly didn't mean PIV for that long!! Lol!
> 
> But if 30-60 minutes maximum per day is spent on being intimate together, I still don't think that is too much...people sit for hours staring at their phones in bed or on the couch at night. Why can't a fraction of that time be spent on being sexual??
> Especially because, as you pointed out, it's usually not even close to 60 minutes!


Every couple of course is different. And in my 20s lasting much past 10 minutes PIV was impossible. But our sessions have always been the 30-60 you mentioned ( wouln't say the "maximum" ) from initiation until afterglow, the time just gets divided differently over the years.

Your main point is why spending intimate time daily with someone you claim to love such a big deal? In my opinion it makes no sense. If my spouse ( or I ) wanted to spend the whole damn day horizontal, we would make (and have made) it happen My conclusion would be that the love they profess for their spouse is a lie they tell themselves.


----------



## In Absentia

LisaDiane said:


> I had MANY, much longer periods when I lost my physical need for sex...but I always had the emotional need to connect physically and sexually, and being desired as a woman and touched always created physical desire for me.


Of course... in fact, my wife, being responsive, would find touch stimulating. The problem was that I could not touch her with the fear of getting rejected and that created a massive chasm between us. I told her this and she had no answer.


----------



## In Absentia

LisaDiane said:


> Especially because, as you pointed out, it's usually not even close to 60 minutes!


It used to be 30 minutes for us. Lots of foreplay and about 10 minutes of actual PIV... worked well for a couple in their early fifties.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Rus47 said:


> Your main point is why spending intimate time daily with someone you claim to love such a big deal? In my opinion it makes no sense.


It’s true.

My wife is in bed sleeping. If I went back to bed now and threw my arm around her and held her she would immediately snuggle into me and stay like that until I overheat.

If I just touch her arm while she is sleeping she will grab my arm and hold it.

What ends up happening is life and other things get in the way and you don’t recognize how valuable moments like that are.


----------



## Rus47

ccpowerslave said:


> It’s true.
> 
> My wife is in bed sleeping. If I went back to bed now and threw my arm around her and held her she would immediately snuggle into me and stay like that until I overheat.
> 
> If I just touch her arm while she is sleeping she will grab my arm and hold it.
> 
> *What ends up happening is life and other things get in the way and you don’t recognize how valuable moments like that are.*


Maybe. But we make time for what is important for us. Like clearing the decks to watch our favorite team get their butt kicked on a Sunday afternoon. 

Making a living is what used to interfere with us, because my time was not entirely mine to spend as wanted to. Still, even working 80 hour weeks left 88 for sleeping, eating, and "playing" with the kids and the wife.


----------



## LisaDiane

In Absentia said:


> Of course... in fact, my wife, being responsive, would find touch stimulating. The problem was that I could not touch her with the fear of getting rejected and that created a massive chasm between us. I told her this and she had no answer.


And that is exactly my point -- there should be NO reason to reject loving sexual touch, unless there is a real health issue.
The fact that you were afraid of being rejected (which is also how I felt with my STBX) is what shouldn't be happening between two partners who truly love and CARE for eachother.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

LisaDiane said:


> That was a typo, I meant HE DIDN'T want to have sex with me, but through discussions and me "coercing" him, he would give me pity sex. And you called that assault.
> 
> Post #232
> 
> Just so you know, when I told him the marriage would be over if there was a lack of sex, it wasn't a "threat", it was a WARNING, a PROMISE...and I kept it.
> 
> I view his refusal to meet my sexual needs as an assault against our marriage (and connection) and a breaking of HIS vows. Especially because there was absolutely NO reason for him to refuse, except that he didn't feel like it was important...and didn't CARE that I did. And his treatment of me over it was a form of emotional abuse.


Okay, I went back and looked, and I don't feel I was attacking you in that post. If you feel attacked, maybe that's because there is some kernel of truth? I was just explaining my view that unwanted sex is assault, no matter if it's gained by force or coercion or whatever. From what you describe, it sounds like he didn't want sex but felt threatened into having pity sex with you because he didn't want to lose the marriage, not because he desired you or wanted to feel connected. He may have felt assaulted just as you felt emotionally abused. It sounds like your marriage was not meeting either of your needs, and I hope you are both happier now.


----------



## LisaDiane

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Okay, I went back and looked, and I don't feel I was attacking you in that post. If you feel attacked, maybe that's because there is some kernel of truth? I was just explaining my view that unwanted sex is assault, no matter if it's gained by force or coercion or whatever. From what you describe, it sounds like he didn't want sex but felt threatened into having pity sex with you because he didn't want to lose the marriage, not because he desired you or wanted to feel connected. He may have felt assaulted just as you felt emotionally abused. It sounds like your marriage was not meeting either of your needs, and I hope you are both happier now.


NO. There is no kernel of truth in what you said for me in MY marriage. He didn't feel threatened or assaulted at all. He might have felt annoyed and then took pity on me so he could pretend he cared about me, but never threatened. He definitely wanted the marriage to continue, because HE insisted that all his needs be met while simultaneously ignoring mine (and not just sexually). His refusal to have sex with me was a symptom of a systemic attitude problem on his part.

And you cannot line up how he felt about his lack of desire for me with how I felt emotionally hurt by him -- there is NO balance to that in any way. HE lied, tricked me, blame-shifted, "gaslighted" me, and shamed me...while I was totally honest and trusting, and trying to be open and discuss what was happening and how to resolve it. He NEVER felt bad about what he was doing - from the lack of interest in me to the lying about it - he was only deceptive so that he could continue to take advantage of my love and care for him, to get what HE wanted to the exclusion of everything else.

So my situation doesn't fit your very narrow definition of what you think happens between sexless partners who are trying to set boundaries and negotiate to have their needs met in a monogamous relationship.

I didn't feel personally attacked by you at all...but I do believe your view is an attack on all spouses who feel trapped in sexless marriages/relationships. Which you are free to do, of course, if that's your opinion. 
What I meant was that the fact that your view on sex in marriage is that I assaulted my husband means that we cannot discuss this nor EVER come to any mutual agreement. We see this so differently that our respective views have no possible points of understanding.


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## In Absentia

LisaDiane said:


> The fact that you were afraid of being rejected (which is also how I felt with my STBX) is what shouldn't be happening between two partners who truly love and CARE for eachother.


Yes, but I contributed to it, unfortunately, by being obsessive about sex. My wife would say, no sex tonight, but we can cuddle in bed. I wouldn't do that, because it wasn't enough for me. We had different way of looking at sex and intimacy. We were not compatible. But in the end, I stopped initiating because I was afraid of rejection.


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## Divinely Favored

LisaDiane said:


> Lol!!! Well, I was trying to stay within the maximum general time I could imagine a couple wanting sexual contact that I've heard on here...if I had put 15 minutes a day, someone would have remarked on it being not enough time to be worth it.
> I certainly didn't mean PIV for that long!! Lol!
> 
> But if 30-60 minutes maximum per day is spent on being intimate together, I still don't think that is too much...people sit for hours staring at their phones in bed or on the couch at night. Why can't a fraction of that time be spent on being sexual??
> Especially because, as you pointed out, it's usually not even close to 60 minutes!


45 min to 1.15 is normal time for total activity. The more the guys have sex the longer they will last. Especially when you are about there, change positions, momentary break in action helps pull you back from the edge.

Unfortunately guys cant get there if she is not willing to go to those extents. If she would, their men could last through her multiple orgasms. 

I challenged my wife to 30 days in a row. She challenged me to daily until our 25th anniversary in May.


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## Divinely Favored

LisaDiane said:


> And that is exactly my point -- there should be NO reason to reject loving sexual touch, unless there is a real health issue.
> The fact that you were afraid of being rejected (which is also how I felt with my STBX) is what shouldn't be happening between two partners who truly love and CARE for eachother.


THIS! Exactly THIS! 

And guys....communicate! Do not keep your mouth shut about her withholding and build and hold in the resentment towards your spouse. If you are not happy, make it known. Resentment and anger will eat you from the inside and cause you health issues. 

My wife back in the day was oblivious to how i felt. I had one foot out the door when the dam broke and i dumped years of hurt and resentment in her lap. As she said, how could she change something that bothers me, if she had no idea because i said nothing.

The last 7 yrs of our 24 are better than the 1st 7.


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## ccpowerslave

Divinely Favored said:


> And guys....communicate! Do not keep your mouth shut about her withholding and build and hold in the resentment towards your spouse.


This.

My wife and I were having a chat yesterday afternoon and she was talking about someone who to use her mom’s terms, “looked rode hard and put away wet”. I said that is going to be you looking in the mirror later tonight. She said, “oh yeah?” “Yes.” then some tee hee hee. Point is, I wanted to have sex and I told her early in advance hey I want to have sex with you, tonight! No ambiguity there.

BTW it worked.


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## staceymj86

Divinely Favored said:


> 45 min to 1.15 is normal time for total activity. The more the guys have sex the longer they will last. Especially when you are about there, change positions, momentary break in action helps pull you back from the edge.
> 
> Unfortunately guys cant get there if she is not willing to go to those extents. If she would, their men could last through her multiple orgasms.
> 
> I challenged my wife to 30 days in a row. She challenged me to daily until our 25th anniversary in May.


I need to do that with my fiancé. For the last few weeks, I’ve been initiating and sex is all I think about. We have the same job field, but my job is closer to home, so I pick the kids from their grandparents house, hurry up and feed them and get them settled for the night before he come home, so that we have that time to be intimate.


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## Husband2016

Hopeful Cynic said:


> My partner not meeting my needs is more like holes being poked in my happy bucket. Sabotage that makes it impossible to fill. Lots of things in life pokes holes in it, but the person who vowed to be by my side and have my back should not be one of them.
> 
> 
> 
> That's the big kicker, right? We do the best we can with the knowledge we have at the time. When I first married, I thought everybody had about the same level of desire for sex, and thought about it about the same way I did. Someone who wanted it way more than me would have been just as baffling to me as someone who wanted it way less than me. Same thing with integrity. I thought the people who created the divorce statistics were just selfish jerks who were easily avoidable if you had any brains. I just blithely assumed my partner had the same level of integrity I did, and would manage the ups and downs of life, including waxing and waning of sexual frequency, because of that commitment.
> 
> It took the demise of my marriage for me to ditch the relentless idealism of my youth.


I agree. We all have holes that poke at our “happy bucket” so to speak. But at the end of the day, it’s not anyone’s responsibility to MAKE anyone feel happy. That’s your job. If it takes someone else to make you feel happy in your own skin, then one needs to fix themselves.

But I stand by my previous analogy of the less filled that unhappy bucket is, the easier it is to feel happy in your own happy bucket. I’m gonna wake up smiling, glowing, ready to conquer the world if my unhappy bucket is empty. But I’m gonna find the motivation hard to come by to conquer the world if the unhappy bucket is full, even if every bit of the rest of my life is going off without a hitch.


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## Divinely Favored

Husband2016 said:


> I agree. We all have holes that poke at our “happy bucket” so to speak. But at the end of the day, it’s not anyone’s responsibility to MAKE anyone feel happy. That’s your job. If it takes someone else to make you feel happy in your own skin, then one needs to fix themselves.
> 
> But I stand by my previous analogy of the less filled that unhappy bucket is, the easier it is to feel happy in your own happy bucket. I’m gonna wake up smiling, glowing, ready to conquer the world if my unhappy bucket is empty. But I’m gonna find the motivation hard to come by to conquer the world if the unhappy bucket is full, even if every bit of the rest of my life is going off without a hitch.


And get rid of the one poking holes in your bucket!


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## Quad73

ccpowerslave said:


> She would say she never thinks about it at all.
> 
> This is extremely confusing for me.
> 
> So after getting blanked and complaining about it last night she reduced me to putty in her hands. All my favorite stuff she initiated on me and did all of it 10/10. I was going to pop before her and she says no no no…
> 
> So I checked with her and she was like yes that was amazing and a very good orgasm for me. I was like damn lady you should do that every day that was HOTTTTT.
> 
> Anyway she already forgot. So this morning I was like girl what you did last night HOLY ****!!! I bet you she will have forgotten already.
> 
> She literally never thinks about it.


Is part of it - her checklist is the all important thing in her life, sex is not a checklist item, so after it's over, it's back to said 'real world' checklist, next national park etc? Curious because my W can be this way sometimes too.


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## ccpowerslave

Quad73 said:


> Is part of it - her checklist is the all important thing in her life, sex is not a checklist item, so after it's over, it's back to said 'real world' checklist, next national park etc? Curious because my W can be this way sometimes too.


Yes, although in her case on a daily basis it is her job more than anything else.

It’s literally what she said, it’s not a priority for her and not something she thinks about even if she generally enjoys it. So if she’s initiating it’s rarely because she is spontaneously horny it’s more she knows I want her. 

I think she does work herself up sometimes. If she thinks about it by the time she gets out of the shower and puts on an outfit for my benefit those days are usually the most spicy.

Yesterday night I just went to bed because I knew she would be tired and we’re going to be out late tonight at a metal concert about 60 miles away. We will both be tired when we get back and I expect we’ll just crash. So that is a two day drought.

I suspect it will be on her todo list for Saturday.


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## In Absentia

ccpowerslave said:


> Yesterday night I just went to bed because I knew she would be tired and we’re going to be out late tonight at a metal concert about 60 miles away.


A metal concert is better than sex...


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## ccpowerslave

In Absentia said:


> A metal concert is better than sex...


Not sure I’d go that far but this one I have been looking forward to for a long time.


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## In Absentia

ccpowerslave said:


> Not sure I’d go that far but this one I have been looking forward to for a long time.


You can try and have sex during the concert... but no speed metal...


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## Coloratura

Anastasia6 said:


> I didn't come to defend all of woman kind. Floridaguy asked for more women's perspective I gave mine.
> 
> And the chore play doesn't work. Well that is heavily dependent on the situation. A woman who is overwhelmed and has a husband who isn't doing much then helping out can help out. But if a man has communicated through words and action that he doesn't care about his wife or their house or their children because she should be doing all those things that's her 'job' cause I work or I make more money. The resentment doesn't fall away with a few chores. Lots of time the damage has been done by the time people show up here complaining. And also chore play is just another way of saying the only thing i"m interested in is sex. I'll 'help' you so you can have sex with me. That is wildly different than I'm a husband and a father and I'll bath the kids cause well they are my kids and I see it needs to get done. Most of what you are calling chore play is actually covert contracts.
> 
> Yes the LD partner should listen and realize there is damage to be done by ignoring the desires of their spouse. But hey we have a thread right here on TAM where a guy was getting it 3x a week and since that wasn't enough for him he was advised to tell her to step it up or divorce. So the LD can never win can they? Why should they even try the way it is presented here. They know it and so many stall and excuse until the kids are older and they are in a better position to stop all together then when the ultimatum comes down they say ok. We had one just last week that did that. Husband came in threatening divorce and wife said ok. Well TAM didn't like that either and was fairly mean to her. So do the husbands want a divorce or do they want a domestic appliance that comes with a sex switch? If divorcing because the LD doesn't meet the HD's most important all encompassing need then shouldn't TAM have rejoiced when the LD readily agreed to set the poor guy free?


This is what is happening to me. Exactly. My husband has been in an 8-yr affair with another woman and is blaming it on the fact that I didn’t have sex with him enough, and when I did have sex with him, it didn’t seem “genuine”. He said he refused to live celebate any longer. The thing is, we weren’t. We had sex 2-3 times a week which is only half of what he would prefer to have, but about right for me. But when I did “step it up” years ago because he told me how boring I was and how the “sex is so bad” he accused me of not being genuine and that I was just doing it because he told me to. 

I am responsive desire although I’ll bet he never bothered to learn about that. He always wanted me 0-60, like a switch. And if I ever tried to slow him down or show him what I wanted, he would get angry and call that rejection. And now I am getting blamed for the end of our marriage. He said “maybe you can someday find someone else with minimal libido”. Actually, I never felt like I had minimal libido. I just felt like my husband never bothered to try to learn what I needed.


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## uphillbattle

Coloratura said:


> This is what is happening to me. Exactly. My husband has been in an 8-yr affair with another woman and is blaming it on the fact that I didn’t have sex with him enough, and when I did have sex with him, it didn’t seem “genuine”. He said he refused to live celebate any longer. The thing is, we weren’t. We had sex 2-3 times a week which is only half of what he would prefer to have, but about right for me. But when I did “step it up” years ago because he told me how boring I was and how the “sex is so bad” he accused me of not being genuine and that I was just doing it because he told me to.
> 
> I am responsive desire although I’ll bet he never bothered to learn about that. He always wanted me 0-60, like a switch. And if I ever tried to slow him down or show him what I wanted, he would get angry and call that rejection. And now I am getting blamed for the end of our marriage. He said “maybe you can someday find someone else with minimal libido”. Actually, I never felt like I had minimal libido. I just felt like my husband never bothered to try to learn what I needed.


2-3 x a week isn't a minimal libido.


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## Coloratura

uphillbattle said:


> 2-3 x a week isn't a minimal libido.


I have no idea what is normal anymore. I am beginning to learn that a lot of what I thought was normal isn’t.

I know I have issues, I always have and I never took the time or was courageous enough to deal with the major issue which was that my first sexual experience was date rape and then an abusive relationship with that boyfriend. At the time, I didn’t recognize him as the sociopath he was - I was so naive and thought that’s how it was supposed to be even though it was traumatic physically and emotionally. I went straight from him to my husband who thought he could fix me. So I have gone through almost my entire life thinking that I am damaged and unfixable. And having a husband who always made me feel like something was wrong with me didn’t help. So, perhaps the end of my marriage is my fault, maybe he wouldn’t have found another woman to be with if I had been what he wanted me to be. My husband has hurt me more than that first guy ever did.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk


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## LisaDiane

Coloratura said:


> I have no idea what is normal anymore. I am beginning to learn that a lot of what I thought was normal isn’t.
> 
> I know I have issues, I always have and I never took the time or was courageous enough to deal with the major issue which was that my first sexual experience was date rape and then an abusive relationship with that boyfriend. At the time, I didn’t recognize him as the sociopath he was - I was so naive and thought that’s how it was supposed to be even though it was traumatic physically and emotionally. I went straight from him to my husband who thought he could fix me. So I have gone through almost my entire life thinking that I am damaged and unfixable. And having a husband who always made me feel like something was wrong with me didn’t help. So, perhaps the end of my marriage is my fault, maybe he wouldn’t have found another woman to be with if I had been what he wanted me to be. My husband has hurt me more than that first guy ever did.
> 
> Thank you for coming to my TED talk


There is NO "normal", and you and your husband were simply incompatible with eachother's needs, and didn't have the tools to communicate to resolve it. You chose to rug sweep everything, he chose to resent you and lie and cheat. 

I'm not sure why you would consider yourself "unfixable" if you never tried to do anything to "fix" yourself...I'm sure that hiding from your issues and never dealing with the trauma that happened to you when you were young created a false sense of yourself, and unhealthy coping mechanisms in you that have held you back from expressing your true self and advocating for your needs for your whole adult life. 

Blaming yourself and holding onto that as a proof of your unworthiness is just more avoiding what is really going on and rug sweeping what happened and what it means FOR YOU. Be brave and face how you really feel and what your needs really are.

It would be tragic if you didn't take this opportunity to really face what happened to you and start healing from it, so you can be a whole person again and live your best life!


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## Coloratura

LisaDiane said:


> There is NO "normal", and you and your husband were simply incompatible with eachother's needs, and didn't have the tools to communicate to resolve it. You chose to rug sweep everything, he chose to resent you and lie and cheat.
> 
> I'm not sure why you would consider yourself "unfixable" if you never tried to do anything to "fix" yourself...I'm sure that hiding from your issues and never dealing with the trauma that happened to you when you were young created a false sense of yourself, and unhealthy coping mechanisms in you that have held you back from expressing your true self and advocating for your needs for your whole adult life.
> 
> Blaming yourself and holding onto that as a proof of your unworthiness is just more avoiding what is really going on and rug sweeping what happened and what it means FOR YOU. Be brave and face how you really feel and what your needs really are.
> 
> It would be tragic if you didn't take this opportunity to really face what happened to you and start healing from it, so you can be a whole person again and live your best life!


I agree with everything you said. And when I think about what my actual needs are, I do become brave. But when I think about my daughter, I become weak again. Because my one big need was always for my family to stay together. So basically I can’t have the thing I need and also teach my daughter what a good marriage looks like. And I have to come to terms with that.


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## Anastasia6

Coloratura said:


> I agree with everything you said. And when I think about what my actual needs are, I do become brave. But when I think about my daughter, I become weak again. Because my one big need was always for my family to stay together. So basically I can’t have the thing I need and also teach my daughter what a good marriage looks like. And I have to come to terms with that.


A good marriage isn't what you have. He's a cheater. Teach you daughter not to tolerate mean who treat you poorly.


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## farsidejunky

In Absentia said:


> A metal concert is better than sex...


Maybe a Porcupine Tree reunion...but not just any band is better than even the most lackluster of sexual encounters. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

Coloratura said:


> I have no idea what is normal anymore. I am beginning to learn that a lot of what I thought was normal isn’t.
> 
> I know I have issues, I always have and I never took the time or was courageous enough to deal with the major issue which was that my first sexual experience was date rape and then an abusive relationship with that boyfriend. At the time, I didn’t recognize him as the sociopath he was - I was so naive and thought that’s how it was supposed to be even though it was traumatic physically and emotionally. I went straight from him to my husband who thought he could fix me. So I have gone through almost my entire life thinking that I am damaged and unfixable. And having a husband who always made me feel like something was wrong with me didn’t help. So, perhaps the end of my marriage is my fault, maybe he wouldn’t have found another woman to be with if I had been what he wanted me to be. My husband has hurt me more than that first guy ever did.
> 
> Thank you for coming to my TED talk


I suspect you are right about your STBX, although the way you were introduced to sex certainly set you on a terrible trajectory. My wife lost her virginity the exact same way, and it took us years to get things to where they were healthy, for both of us.

I'm sorry you went through and are going through that.

If you have not done so, please find a therapist to help you understand healthy versus unhealthy relationship patterns. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

Coloratura said:


> I agree with everything you said. And when I think about what my actual needs are, I do become brave. But when I think about my daughter, I become weak again. Because my one big need was always for my family to stay together. So basically I can’t have the thing I need and also teach my daughter what a good marriage looks like. And I have to come to terms with that.


That opportunity is not entirely lost. 

But without a "healthy you", the opportunity will never present itself. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## In Absentia

farsidejunky said:


> Maybe a Porcupine Tree reunion...


I think Steve Wilson has ruled it out... too busy making silly pop music now...


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## farsidejunky

In Absentia said:


> I think Steve Wilson has ruled it out... too busy making silly pop music now...


Unfortunately, yep.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## DLC

Marriage with no sex? I may as well get a roommate. Haha.


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