# Alternative to AA



## stupad

Hi . . . I've been having some issues with alcohol (for a long time, but it's really come to a head over the past 8 months or so). I've been able to get it mostly under control, but I keep messing up. My wife's been on me to goto AA (she's been going to Alanon meetings). I've been to a couple AA meetings and know a bit about the philosophy, etc but just don't think that it's for me. I've done some web searches and there's so much out there (how much is valid, I don't know). So if anyone here has any suggestions for other routes, I'd appreciate hearing about them. Thank you.


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## TNgirl232

Have you thought about an in house rehabilitation program?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jamison

Good for your wife going to Alanon meetings, thats a really good/positive thing for her. 

Have you tried going to other AA meetings in your area? There are usually more than one meeting place. It could be you just haven't found the right group yet that makes you feel welcomed and belonged. 

If you haven't been to counseling yet, that might be helpful as well. AA is wonderful and can be helpful with the sobriety part, but usually you need a counselor to get to the root of the real issuses for why you had the behavior to begin with. Good luck!


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## stupad

Thanks for the feedback. But is this really all?? 

I have a call into the therapist I worked with to get over my depression and a call into AA. 2 guys have since called but I;m feeling a little starker' Anyway -any other adivce will be welcomed.


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## Runs like Dog

Still drinking? Then none of this has any point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sparkles422

I am in AA and I have to tell you, the unbelievable support with people who understand me and my motives, lies, perfectionism, control issues together with huge fear issues and isolating have been a continual comfort.

It is not easy, let me tell you. But if you are serious about improving your life, getting a new and better life then AA will benefit you immensely. 

You will have hard work (but anything that is worth something takes hard work) and you will discover things about yourself that are painful but the rewards....BIG

I can honestly say now I am glad I am an alcoholic because I have a network that is worldwide. Any city, any country I have friends and I will never feel isolated with my hangups and problems again. I need never ever be alone again.

Good Luck in your decision!

PS: Most important: Spirituality for your soul


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## stupad

Sparkles - - thanks for your post. You're now the second person that told me "I'm glad I'm an alcoholic". this brings to light an interesting perspective.


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## COGypsy

Just out of curiousity, Stupad--what is it about AA that you don't feel is quite for you? That might help generate more helpful suggestions.


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## stupad

Gypsy . . . good question. My mother did Overeaters Anyamous years ago. It helped her for awhile but once she dropped out of the program, she was never able to get her weight/eating issues back under control. I guess part of my fear is that it won't work for me and then what??? (I know - if I don't try it, I'll never know). Also, I've been to a couple of meetings and felt that i couldn't related to the people there. "I just don't have issues like THEY do" - I would think. But perhaps I really do and have not yet accepted that. In the past couple days, I have been blessed to hear from a couple of people that caused me to change some of my thinking about it. 
And, I don't deny I have a problem but I am not ready to label myself an alcoholic for the rest of my life (is this completley contradicting or just cowardly or something else)?


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## Mom6547

stupad said:


> Hi . . . I've been having some issues with alcohol (for a long time, but it's really come to a head over the past 8 months or so). I've been able to get it mostly under control, but I keep messing up.


Amazon.com: The Cure for Alcoholism: Drink Your Way Sober Without Willpower, Abstinence or Discomfort (9781933771557): Roy Eskapa Ph.D., David Sinclair: Books

You keep "messing up" as is super duper common because on a survival level alcohol is triggering a survival instinct to your brain stem. While AA is the best we had for many many years, the failure rate is huge.

I have also had success with a therapist who taught me about mindfulness, how to use yoga. Another good topic to read about is nutrition.




> My wife's been on me to goto AA (she's been going to Alanon meetings). I've been to a couple AA meetings and know a bit about the philosophy, etc but just don't think that it's for me.


Me neither. I had a hard time trying to make up a higher power that I did not believe in so s/he could help me.



> I've done some web searches and there's so much out there (how much is valid, I don't know). So if anyone here has any suggestions for other routes, I'd appreciate hearing about them. Thank you.


Good luck.


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## stupad

Mom6547 - so the methodology in this book helped you? If so, I will check it out. This is the type of feedback I was looking for. There's so much stuff out there it's impossible to know what's what.

And I'm not completely writing off AA. 

I am seeing my old therapist tomorrow to begin working on this.

Thanks!


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## Runs like Dog

AA is bit churchy for many folks.


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## Riverside MFT

If you live in the United States, you should be able to call 211 (it is free and is supported through United Way). They can tell you about drug/alcohol resources in your area.


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## Mom6547

stupad said:


> Mom6547 - so the methodology in this book helped you?


Yes.


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## trey69

AA plus therapy, some good books, and hobbies are sure to be helpful. Good luck.


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## CoffeeTime

Stupad,

I know it is frustrating when asking for alternatives to AA and then all you hear is 'why not AA' or get the advice to go there lol. I have friends who are sober alcoholics. One did not subscribe to AA philosophy and replacing alcohol with a lifetime of AA. The alternative (counseling) was better for her though more expensive. If you do not feel comfortable with AA then don't go and try something else so you don't use that as an excuse not to deal with the problem. Despite the myth, one size does not fit all nor does one way work for everyone. Good Luck!


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## Runs like Dog

My FiL thought AA was beneath him. After seemingly not drinking for MANY years he eventually became a social drinker. There's nothing to indicate he ever became a raging alcoholic again.


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## stupad

Coffee - thanks for those thoughts. Indeed, it would be easy for me to not deal with the drinking because I didn't want to pursue AA. I went back to a therapist I was seeing years ago and he gave me some pretty good insights to a few things.

And, I don't think AA is beneath me. I just want to deal with this and move on. Which is not very AA-like. Any other comments suggests etc are welcome! Thanks all.


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## AgentD

stupad said:


> Coffee - thanks for those thoughts. Indeed, it would be easy for me to not deal with the drinking because I didn't want to pursue AA. I went back to a therapist I was seeing years ago and he gave me some pretty good insights to a few things.
> 
> And, I don't think AA is beneath me. I just want to deal with this and move on. Which is not very AA-like. Any other comments suggests etc are welcome! Thanks all.



Whats not AA like? Dealing and moving on is a process something that will take some time. My husband is in AA has been fro two years and done really well. I think surrounding himself with people who are in the same boat as him has been helpful. He is also seeing a therapist to help with the behavior part. AA is to help keep you sober, but you got to get to the root of the behavior as well.

Most people can not kick the habit on their own. They usually think they can, and maybe can for awhile, just to return to it later. And yes people in AA can fall off the wagon again as well, but to have people who you can relate to sure helps.


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## wunderbar

stupad said:


> Coffee - thanks for those thoughts. Indeed, it would be easy for me to not deal with the drinking because I didn't want to pursue AA. I went back to a therapist I was seeing years ago and he gave me some pretty good insights to a few things.
> 
> And, I don't think AA is beneath me. I just want to deal with this and move on. Which is not very AA-like. Any other comments suggests etc are welcome! Thanks all.


From my understanding - AA is there for as much or as little as you feel you need it. My MIL has been active in AA for over 20 years, but she has needed it. She has issues that she is unable to move on from, so AA has always been in her life.

The beginning few months to a year may require more energy for you to learn coping mechanisms, deal with your issues, etc. Once you have time sober and therapy under your belt, you will have a sponsor and can go to meetings as little or as much as you like. 

As much as you want to rip off the band-aid and patch your problem permanently you also need to recognize it may not be that simple. You will need to dig deep, emotionally, feel pain from the past, learn new coping methods to deal with that and other pain, and always be aware of how you are feeling emotionally. Hope you find something that works for you.


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## COGypsy

stupad said:


> Gypsy . . . good question. My mother did Overeaters Anyamous years ago. It helped her for awhile but once she dropped out of the program, she was never able to get her weight/eating issues back under control. I guess part of my fear is that it won't work for me and then what??? (I know - if I don't try it, I'll never know). Also, I've been to a couple of meetings and felt that i couldn't related to the people there. "I just don't have issues like THEY do" - I would think. But perhaps I really do and have not yet accepted that. In the past couple days, I have been blessed to hear from a couple of people that caused me to change some of my thinking about it.
> And, I don't deny I have a problem but I am not ready to label myself an alcoholic for the rest of my life (is this completley contradicting or just cowardly or something else)?


If it helps, I've actually heard a lot of not-great things about Overeaters Anonymous. The AA recovery model applies pretty well to things that you CAN give up completely. However, food is not one of those things. 

I would point out just a couple of holes in your logic though-- one is that no matter what approach you take, you have to _do_ it, or it's not going to work, ever. Something makes you drink, made your mother eat and until you work through that rather uncomfortable wall--you just have to stick with it, whether it's therapy, AA or some medical imbalance. But, since you've managed to identify that you have a problem and haven't bottomed out, then I'm guessing you realize that.

It sounds like therapy could be the best way to go. Find and eradicate the root cause and then keep an eye out for ongoing problematic behaviours. That makes total sense to me. I think that the important thing is to stick with the therapy long enough to get yourself straightened out, and not just take some ideas under advisement and head out into the sunset. Our brains can be tricky when it comes to justifying the stuff we WANT to do...especially if it avoids hurt.


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## stupad

Hi Gypsy . . . thanks for your post. You echo what Coffee said earlier - that it doesn't matter how I approach this - but I have to do something. Sitting around drinking and wondering how to stop ain't gonna cut it. Interesting point about OA/AA.

Another point is that I really haven't had a big bow-out hitting rock bottom - which seems to be the story for all AA people I've spoken to. Rock bottom is a great motivator and I'm trying to making NOT hitting rock bottom my personal motivator.

I started therapy - and after the first session, I'm already building a revised framework. There's still much more to do. One idea I REALLY like about AA - take it one day at a time. It made things much more diffficult to think if I may be able to be a social drinker at some point in the future. This is not relelvant, today is. 

Does anyone know of a good discussion board (like TAM) but for alcohol issues in particular. I found a chat room (12 Step something) - but it seemed a bit creepy.

I welcome any more comments, suggestions, criticisms, prayers, hugs whatever : )


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## Riverside MFT

stupad said:


> Does anyone know of a good discussion board (like TAM) but for alcohol issues in particular. I found a chat room (12 Step something) - but it seemed a bit creepy.
> 
> I welcome any more comments, suggestions, criticisms, prayers, hugs whatever : )


Have you tried the addiction section of TAM? You have found people here that are similar to you (and that aren't creepy) and I am sure there are many who have been through similar circumstances and who are willing to help you in this forum.


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## stupad

Hi Riverside . . . yes I posted this in the Addiction section. I view this section of TAM as peripheral to the relationship issues that most are here to address. I've had some good feedback to my post, but I don't think many are on here for their own recovery - which I guess is more my focus personally.


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## CallaLily

If you like to read here are a few books you might be interested in. 

Beyond the Influence by: Katherine Ketchum

Alcoholics Anonymous The big book.

12 steps 12 traditions

My Name Is Bill: Bill Wilsons life and creation of Alcoholics Anonymous by: Susan Cheever


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## IvanDrago

Hi Stupad, 
I can only share what has happened to me. I am an addict who has been clean for over 3 years, my drug of choice was alcohol. I go to meetings and used the 12 steps and the program originated in AA to get clean & sober. I am also an atheist.

Some may feel that the mention of god in the steps makes it a religious program and that may be. Some may challenge and say that I'm not a "real atheist" because of meeting attendance in a program that focuses on god. I say that those people were not much help when I was drunk, bleeding, and on my ass and on the verge of losing everything. They are even less helpful now. 

I identify as an addict because my problem is addiction to things that temporarily make me feel better despite the consequences. My initial intake form at the treatment centre diagnosed "inferior coping skills" among other things. That's the ticket. I didn't know how to respond to situations that came up without looking for the quick fix (booze, drugs, sex, pain) that would make it go away. Lots of people do this and to a certain extent it's good and healthy to vent with a couple of beers, a roll in the hay, or whatever. The problem for me was that a couple was never enough and the benders that resulted created more problems and shame. There's the line. I started drinking to sooth anxiety and emotions when I was 12, so I never really learned how to cope with the ups and downs of life without booze or drugs. 

I came to AA without any hope that it would help me but I was willing to try anything. I tried a lot of different things (even church!) in the beginning because it was better than anything I was doing on my own. I got sober in NC where in a lot of meetings your higher power can be whatever you want... Until it's Jesus. The problem was that the "fake it till you make it" crowd almost killed me. I realized that no matter how much I wanted the miraculous cure, I just didn't believe in the super natural god that most of my program friends did. 

I started going to NA (Narcotics Anonymous) more than AA because the language and literature is a little less dogmatic. There is also a crowd that is more accepting of alternative beliefs as long as it keeps you clean. The other difference is that NA talks about the disease of addiction, not just alcohol, which is helpful if you have cross addictions. 

So, why do I still go to meetings? Because whether they believe in god or not the people I associate with at meetings are still addicts and alcoholics. How they deal with life's ups and downs is there own path, but it helps that their initial thought may have been to get drunk or high. It helps to listen to other people that have (or have had) the same thoughts as me and to share with newer people how I broke that initial addiction. 

The problem is that you are trying to set conditions for your recovery when you are not in a position to do so. Right now you're letting the addiction make most of the rules and excluding things without truly knowing how they work. Getting clean/sober is not a negotiation, you don't have a position going in and then agree to terms. Either you're ready to stop or you're not. It sounds like you recognize that alcohol is a problem in your life, but aren't quite ready to let people help you unless you can set the terms. I tried that too, it didn't work. I "quit" a thousand times and ended up drunk after the most resolute of beginnings. The rub was that I had no idea how to stay sober, that's what I got from the program then and now. My outlook on some of the stuff has changed but in the end I still spend time with people who have been doing it longer than me. After all I only know what it's like to be clean/sober for 1344 days. 

The most helpful things from my early days were:
1. Don't drink/use no matter what.
2. If you feel like drinking/using tell someone (people in the program are great but anyone who knows what you're trying to do will work)
3. Get as much help from as many sources as possible. (meetings, treatment, counseling, hanging out with clean/sober people)
4. Look for the similarities and not the differences. Use what works for you and leave the rest. 
5. Just because someone (even you or me) is clean/sober, dose not mean they're not a pushy a$$hole. Myself included

Hope you find some peace.

Drago

"I fight to win!"


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## stupad

IvanDrago said:


> Hi Stupad,
> The problem is that you are trying to set conditions for your recovery when you are not in a position to do so. Right now you're letting the addiction make most of the rules and excluding things without truly knowing how they work. Getting clean/sober is not a negotiation, you don't have a position going in and then agree to terms. Either you're ready to stop or you're not. It sounds like you recognize that alcohol is a problem in your life, but aren't quite ready to let people help you unless you can set the terms. I tried that too, it didn't work. I "quit" a thousand times and ended up drunk after the most resolute of beginnings. The rub was that I had no idea how to stay sober, that's what I got from the program then and now.


Drago . . . thank you so much for taking the time to post. The quote above is the most sense I've heard from anybody about this - and I have been calling, asking questions, talking to therapists, etc. Have I done exhaustive work on my recovery, no - but this is an eye opener. You are absolutely right. I am calling the shots on getting sober and learning to deal with this. I've heard lots of people tell me 'get help' which is marginally more helpful than 'here's a 12 pack - just drink it up and forgetaboutit.' I haven't hit any tragic bottom that so many others have - nor do I want to. I am going to a beginner's AA meeting on Saturday and I'm going with an open mind. I'm hoping that at a beginner's meeting, the steps needed and the program will be explained a little better. 

Other AAers have told me go to a meeting and find a sponsor. Again, not very helpful - what do I do with a sponor? How does this help? What's the point? Ultimately, what the hell is my problem? Some of these are questiosn I hope to have answered on Saturday, others are rhetorical - so don't feel the need to reply . . .I'm just venting about not knowing what 'get help' is really supposed to mean to me. Perhaps this is part of my trying to lay out the terms here - I don't know. When I suffered from depression I was told antidepressents and talk therapy was the way to go. And somehow that was concrete for me and worked! I'm not feeling the same way about my options at the moment. 

As someone else posted, I can't let a lack of direction stall me form moving forward. I can't dismiss options that I really haven't tried.

And this is all really, really scary. I oftentimes wonder how I ended up here anyway. ANd in a way it should be really simple. I shouldn't buy alcohol, I shouldn't drink it. Simple.

Thanks again Drago! keep well.


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## alicew332

You don't get to find any of that out until you have been to a few meetings. That is why they call them steps. AA is a wonderful organization, committed to helping people. But they believe that they are the one and only way. I do not believe in one and only one way to do ANYTHING.


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## trey69

The best thing to do is give it a try. You do not have to have a sponser right off the bat either. Go sit in on a few meetings. You do not have to speak or anything just sit and listen. I doubt you will get much out of anything just going to one meeting. Sometimes too, if you do not like the meeting you're at, there are usually other meetings in your area. There isn't usually just one. Sometimes going to other meeting places is what you have to do to find the right one that fits you. I wouldn't knock something just yet until you try it out several times.


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## stupad

Trey and Alice - thanks for chiming in.

As I said I am going to a beginner's meeting on Saturday. And I appreciate everyone's comments - but it seems AA is the only game in town. And that wouldn't be bad, but I've read a number of studies that put its success rate at somewhere between 5-8%. For those that it works for it seems a God-send, but for the other 95-92% ???

And I'm hearing that I have to goto a meeting to know what it's about. It sort of reminds me of The Forum meeting I went to 25 years ago where they will completely change your life. 'but we can't tell you how, you have to experience it - but first give us a check (think EST reboot - if any of you are that old). And I know that no one will be asking me for a check at AA.

I don't mean to sound negative (I'm not entirely) just bewildered. Thanks everyone.


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## stupad

Update - I've been to a couple of meetings and they were much better than the ones I went to years ago. Or, maybe I am being more receptive to them. And I am talking to my initial sponsor.

I also had a bit of a revelation. I've been good managing my drinking the past week or so. Just getting a little buzzed and that was that. I was doing pretty well. Then I picked up a bottle last night (for a little buzz) and blew right past the 'little buzzed' phase. My wife called me out on it. Busted!

After all this time, i realize that I can't control my drinking (a collective "It's about time idiot you realized that".) But instead of this being something scary, I find it comforting. Getting out of the gray area of 'managing' and into black and white makes for a more clear path. Not and easy path I suspect, but more clear.

Thanks for all you input and just listening. Be well!


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## Chris H.

stupad said:


> but I've read a number of studies that put its success rate at somewhere between 5-8%. For those that it works for it seems a God-send, but for the other 95-92% ???


There are no accurate statistics on AA success rates. First of all, AA doesn't allow anyone to take statistics on their membership or the people who attend meetings.

The next thing to consider is that alcoholics and addicts are some of the best "deceivers" by nature, so if someone did supposedly survey some, I doubt they would be completely authentic in their answers - and for many different reasons.

I also just wanted to chime in and say that AA has worked for me. I've been clean and sober 11 years now thanks to AA. I also do not "work the program" as hard as everyone else I know, quite simply, I'm a slacker. I go to like one meeting per week, I have a sponsor and homegroup, and I keep going back to meetings no matter how long I've been sober.

I'm not saying my way is a good way to do it, it's just what works for me. I did step work in the beginning with my first sponsor, and it completely changed my life.

I no longer have the drama in my life that requires rigorous step work or daily meeting attendance, but rest assured, if the "**** hits the fan" and life gets tough, I will turn to AA rather than alcohol or drugs. Nothing is more important to me than staying sober.

I have a lot more to lose today than I did 11 years ago when I first went in. I've got a wife and two kids who have never seen me drink or do drugs, and that's a miracle for a person like me.

There's no doubt in my mind that I am an alcoholic, and that I can't stay sober by my own will. I tried using "will power" for a long time, and while it worked in many other areas of life for me, I could never make it work to control my drinking.

I know AA isn't the solution for everyone, so I'm not here to say that it is. All I can say is that it worked for me when nothing else did, and it not only kept me clean and sober, but also changed my life and gave me the skills I needed to be able to live a happy sober life.

The 12 steps are pretty cool. Looking back on it now, I can say that I'm glad I'm an alcoholic, because "recovery" for me has taken all that bad stuff that happened to me in my drinking career, and made it into something positive.

A good friend of mine in the program gave me this saying one day, and I still carry it around in my wallet because I liked it so much:



> I'd rather go through life sober, believing I'm an alcoholic, than go through life drunk, trying to convince myself that I am not.


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## stupad

Chris - thanks for your post. I'm considering today Day 1 of sobriety.

I will put the quote in my wallet as well. It's hard to say I am an alcoholic - but harder to keep up the lie.

Stay well. You are inspirational.

Stuart


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## ItHappenedToMe

stupad said:


> ]I've been to a couple AA meetings and know a bit about the philosophy, etc but just don't think that it's for me. I've done some web searches and there's so much out there (how much is valid, I don't know). So if anyone here has any suggestions for other routes, I'd appreciate hearing about them. Thank you.


Hi Stuart (good to know why your moniker is Stupad! Never got it until now...)

There are two trains of thought:

Old school: addiction is sin, and you choose to be involved with the sin. Old man/new man, salvation through faith Christ, etc.

New school: addication is a disease, and you are not responsible. You are powerless, and must follow 12 steps the rest of your life (aka The Minnesota Model).

Which do you believe? Both involve counseling and accountability.

Now, as 'alternatives to AA' there are some interesting ones, like nutritional therapy (your addiction is based on a lack of biochemicals). I recommend '7 weeks to Sobriety.' You can get it used on Amazon. They have a clinic in Minnesota, and some franchised location across the country. 

There is also a website called Outpatient Alcohol Treatment - How to Stop Drinking - Alternatives to AA. Lots of information there. 

Get sober, stay sober, Stu!


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## stupad

ItHappened - thanks for ALL your posts! As it turns out since posting this originally, I have been going to AA. It's been amazing in ways I cannot describe. A little humbling, but better that than to continue waking up not really sure what happened the night before and the wife PISSED off AGAIN!

It's taken a little getting used to (Hi my name is Stu and I'm an alcoholic. HI STU!) it seemed so hokey - but if it works.

On a sort of funny note - on my anniversay date, when I KNEW that I HAD to do something . . . I called about a dozen places. After the 4th rehab promising to get me sober in 30 days . . . all for the low low price of $30,000 (30 thousand dollars), AA looked to be a good alternative at least to give it a shot (no pun intended)! Just think, sobriety, nice people AND a cup of coffee for $1/day (if you want to contribute). Whatta deal!

Day 16 and counting . . .


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## Chris H.

Yeah, you can't beat the price, that's for sure.

The other thing I have found is that sitting in an AA meeting, in and of itself, is a unique and very human experience. 

Where else can you go in life to listen to a group of anonymous people sharing such personal information about their problems and how they're working through them?

It's an interesting cross-section of society too, we get people from all walks of life, but with that one common denominator.

I go, even though many times I don't "feel like" it. I don't look at meeting attendance as something "optional" for me. I try to be non-judgmental and get what I can out of each person who speaks.


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## ItHappenedToMe

Chris H. said:


> Where else can you go in life to listen to a group of anonymous people sharing such personal information about their problems and how they're working through them?


DOH! On a forum like this, Chris!


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## Chris H.

Right! It's a bit different in person though.


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## Yardman

Stuart, Sounds like you are finding AA helpful and thats a good thing. It never was a good fit for me. In fact my relapses became worse while I was in AA.


I found this list and made use of SMART

Sensible Support Groups

I also like this take on things;

The Lizard Brain Addiction Monster


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## stupad

Thanks Yardman. This comes at a good time. I haven't had a drink in a few months and looking for some other support groups. I'll check out these resources.


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## Freak On a Leash

Runs like Dog said:


> AA is bit churchy for many folks.


I went to Al-anon and that was my problem. I just couldn't get into it. My husband won't go to AA for the same reason. Oh yeah, plus he'd have to admit that he's the problem, not everyone else.


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## stupad

OK - so, I've been sober for a few months. I was really keen on getting to meetings at the start (on most days, more than one meeting for the first 4-6 weeks). I thought the 90 days/90 meetings was WAY too much to ask for anyone - but quickly thought that it wasn't so bad afterall and embraced it. I was looking forward to meetings, calling people (not a whole lot) but at least my sponsor daily. Stopping drinking was not nearly as tough for me than I had thought it would be. Do I still have urges? Yes, but I'm feeling that these are more bad habits (eg, I'm doing _____, I should have a beer (or 8)). But, I've been recognizing this, addressing it and moving on. More and more, I am choosing not to have a drink since it's more interesting to see all the problems swirling around me, which ALL were squarely blamed on ME and my drinking. And they are still swirling around without my drinking and whether or not I'm around. Hmmm, interesting. My wife has even said to me (on 2 occasions over the past 3 months) that she wished I would drink again, and she 'gave me permission' to drink beer again. This hasn't happened in some time.

And now, I am no longer looking forward to meetings, I find the big book stories way too contrived, I'm tired of the self-flagellation (I'm an alcoholic, broken, I've wrecked my life (which I haven't), and although I "look for the similarities and not the differences" there hasn't been anyone in the meetings who hasn't seem to have had serious detox (or multiple times), stints in rehab, multiple addictions, and all the things I haven't 'not yet' done. I also feel the 'brainwash' that if I don't keep going, I'll be done for. I don't feel that I am _really allowed - " to take what works and leave the rest" since I really don't feel drawn to 'do the steps' or continue with meetings on a regular basis, etc. So I can take what works and leave the rest so long as it's all the things I'm supposed to be doing.

I don't know what I'm really asking here. I know I don't need anyone's permission to stop AA altogether. I sort of feel like I have drunk the AA kool-aid, it hasn't settled right, I can't puke it up, but can't really move on without doing that. And of course, the people I feel most comfortable talking with about this are other AAers who are sober, happy, working the program, etc (which is all REALLY great for them and I don't regret them this at all).

I dunno . . . any thoughts, comments, suggestions????_


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## Chris H.

stupad said:


> I sort of feel like I have drunk the AA kool-aid, it hasn't settled right, I can't puke it up, but can't really move on without doing that.


I wouldn't say you've "drunk the AA kool-aid" until you've worked all of the steps with a sponsor.

For me, that was what really changed my life for the better. Drinking was just a symptom of the maladaptive coping mechanisms I lived with. AA "brainwashing" and stepwork corrected a lot of this.

If your bottom was never as low as the others in the groups you are attending, good. Hopefully it never gets that bad for you. Don't use that as an excuse to give up on AA though. One of my close friends in the program has 14 years sober, and was never in multiple rehabs, homeless or any of that stuff. I know for a fact he felt like he didn't fit in many times early on in sobriety. I never felt like AA was a "fit" for me either. I did it because my other options had run out.

Don't expect your problems to go away immediately after stopping drinking either. From what you said about your wife, it sounds like she is looking for someone to blame things on again, by encouraging you to drink.


----------



## stupad

Chris . . thanks for this.



Chris H. said:


> I wouldn't say you've "drunk the AA kool-aid" until you've worked all of the steps with a sponsor.


Yes - I 'kinda' get this. We have talked about doing the steps and I honestly feel that I would be writing/talking about what he wanted me to say. I think I would be feeling really dishonest during the process. Which, AA would say, that I am still in denial, that's the disease talking, if I can't be honest - I can't be fixed, etc. 

For example:


Chris H. said:


> Drinking was just a symptom of the maladaptive coping mechanisms I lived with. AA "brainwashing" and stepwork corrected a lot of this.


(and I am _not_ trying to be disrespectful toward this program)

So, who's justifying what to whom here (I guess is my question, to myself??)?




Chris H. said:


> If your bottom was never as low as the others in the groups you are attending, good. *Wholeheartedly agree *Hopefully it never gets that bad for you. Don't use that as an excuse to give up on AA though.


I guess this is at the core of my issue. When I first started this thread, I was not a fan of AA. I was encourage by many to try it (and thank you all for the encouragement). I tried it. It sort of worked. But I don't feel the 'passion' or 'enthusiasm' from others in 'the rooms' and spend a good part of the time in meetings doing mental eye-rolls. So, I guess, this should be a sign that I'm done with it ??? Thus my post (?)



Chris H. said:


> One of my close friends in the program has 14 years sober, and was never in multiple rehabs, homeless or any of that stuff.


I guess this is another basic question/issue I have. The disease bit . . . does one keep gettring chemo after the cancer is gone. I realize this isn't the best analogy, but I think it's in the 'spirit' that I'm feeling.



Chris H. said:


> I did it because my other options had run out.


Not to be facetious, but perhaps I need to try other things to see what AA can really 'do' for me. (Or more to the point, 'do' for myself)



Chris H. said:


> Don't expect your problems to go away immediately after stopping drinking either.


Not at all . . .I'm just amazed how many other problems people around me have now that they can no longer blame me and my bottles.

Thanks again for your input. And, I really don't mean to come across as an a$$ . . .just questioning for myself and I appreciate the push-back.


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## stupad

And I guess the point of this thread to begin with is that when looking for assistance with drinking, it seems that no matter where one looks, AA is the only (or certainly) the biggest game in town!

I'm just wondering if I am still missing something or AA just has the best PR people : )


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## Chris H.

You're not coming across "as an a$$" at all. If you're back to trying alternatives to AA, that's your decision, and it is understandable.

AA was very "weird" and cultish to me when I first started going. Still is sometimes, but I'm over it. Who cares. If I compare my life before to now, I'll take the weird cult feeling one hour a week every time. And yeah, I still roll my eyes in meetings sometimes after 11 yrs of sobriety 

I hope I've said before, that AA isn't for everyone. There are many people in this world who quit drinking without it, and many who can't seem to make it work for them.

The only thing I can really talk intelligently about is my own experiences. I just hope you don't say "I've tried AA and it didn't work," when you've never actually done the steps with your sponsor (and honestly too). That would be selling yourself and the program short. They will always welcome you back if you decide to try it again at another point in time.


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## Yardman

"My wife has even said to me (on 2 occasions over the past 3 months) that she wished I would drink again, and she 'gave me permission' to drink beer again. This hasn't happened in some time."

Why would she say that? I'm with Chris in thinking your wife misses blaming crap on your drinking. AA or not, don't start drinking again.


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## Chris H.

stupad said:


> And I guess the point of this thread to begin with is that when looking for assistance with drinking, it seems that no matter where one looks, AA is the only (or certainly) the biggest game in town!
> 
> I'm just wondering if I am still missing something or AA just has the best PR people : )


Yeah, AA definitely has the best PR people. People all over the world with long periods of sobriety talking about how it worked for them. I guess I'm one too now . You can't get much better testimonials than that. Especially when it's all organic word of mouth. AA doesn't really spend money on advertising other than being listed in phone books.

I have seen a lot of commercials for the Passages Malibu guy with the "cure for addiction" book. Don't know if that works or not though


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## Yardman

I'll agree that AA does have the best PR. They also have members in positions of power who encourage and even coerce attendance.

One thing that did bother me was the, "Hi, I'm xxx, an alcoholic." One time I said, "I'm xxx, a great guy who is an x-alkie" THAT DIDN'T go over well. 

Another issue you pointed out concerns the disease theory of addiction. Not all addiction specialists agree with it.


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## Yardman

Chris H. said:


> AA doesn't really spend money on advertising other than being listed in phone books.
> 
> I have seen a lot of commercials for the Passages Malibu guy with the "cure for addiction" book. Don't know if that works or not though


I often hear AA ads on the radio.

I'm sure passages works for some, just as AA works for some.


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## stupad

Yardman said:


> One thing that did bother me was the, "Hi, I'm xxx, an alcoholic." One time I said, "I'm xxx, a great guy who is an x-alkie" THAT DIDN'T go over well.


Heehee . . . this made me LOL. Perhaps I'll try this and they can kick my butt to the curb and my decision will be made.


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## Chris H.

Yardman said:


> I often hear AA ads on the radio.


That's interesting, they don't do it around where I live as far as I know. I didn't think they were supposed to. I guess I was wrong.


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## stupad

Yardman said:


> "My wife has even said to me (on 2 occasions over the past 3 months) that she wished I would drink again, and she 'gave me permission' to drink beer again. This hasn't happened in some time."
> 
> Why would she say that? I'm with Chris in thinking your wife misses blaming crap on your drinking. AA or not, don't start drinking again.


No, this won't drive me to drink again. It's too fascinating to remain sober and observant.

Part of it is blaming and the other part is using the drinking as a cover-up for other issues. Which has been a slow process to peel back the layers.


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## Yardman

They won't kick your butt to the curb...lol But make sure you check out the unapproving body language, coughs, and eye rolls.

Most likely the next person, or chair, will affirm about how they have a lifelong disease which can only be kept in daily remission by following the spiritual program of AA


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## stupad

AND . . . I would be remiss by not stating that the meeting attendence, etc, did help me to STOP the drinking habit. At this point my question is more about staying sober.

So . . . anyone reading this with a drinking problem (or other addiction/abuse -whatever you may be calling it), I would highly recommend trying the AA route as a starter at least. Then decide for yourself.

And I hope this doesn't seem completely contradictory.


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## Yardman

I'll agree that group support is huge in the early part.

As far as your question about staying sober;
Remember why you decided to quit drinking. Write it down and put it in your wallet if need be.

I've attended an online meetings of Lifering which I enjoy much more than AA. One main reason is that they permit "crosstalk"


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## stupad

Yardman said:


> I've attended an online meetings of Lifering which I enjoy much more than AA. One main reason is that they permit "crosstalk"


'Crosstalk' meaning discussion among members in the meetings as opposed to leader-speak followed by soliloquies?


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## Yardman

Yep, drunkalogues are discouraged too

FAQs |

. 

What is the LifeRing meeting format?

Formats vary, but at most meetings the topic is "How Was Your Week?" Each person reports on the highlights and heartaches of their past week and plans ahead for the decisions of the coming week. Conversation ("cross-talk") is encouraged. Personal drinking/drugging histories ("drunkalogues") are discouraged. The meeting ends with a round of applause to one another for staying clean and sober.


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## stupad

Yardman said:


> Yep, drunkalogues are discouraged too


I didn't realize there was a term for this : ) I stopped going to one meeting because all drinking stories got me too thirsty - and the package stores were still open when it ended. 

The last comment I heard was some guy talking about the 'whiskey of the month' club he belonged to. And, a general comment, 'you have to do what you need to stop drinking.'

So I left.


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## Yardman

stupad said:


> I didn't realize there was a term for this : ) I stopped going to one meeting because all drinking stories got me too thirsty - and the package stores were still open when it ended.


Sometimes they had the same effect on me too. I arrive feeling good and having not thought about drinking for some time. I'd leave struggling to fight the urge of buying beer on the way home.


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## brazerkus

stupad said:


> OK - so, I've been sober for a few months. I was really keen on getting to meetings at the start (on most days, more than one meeting for the first 4-6 weeks). I thought the 90 days/90 meetings was WAY too much to ask for anyone - but quickly thought that it wasn't so bad afterall and embraced it. I was looking forward to meetings, calling people (not a whole lot) but at least my sponsor daily. Stopping drinking was not nearly as tough for me than I had thought it would be. Do I still have urges? Yes, but I'm feeling that these are more bad habits (eg, I'm doing _____, I should have a beer (or 8)). But, I've been recognizing this, addressing it and moving on. More and more, I am choosing not to have a drink since it's more interesting to see all the problems swirling around me, which ALL were squarely blamed on ME and my drinking. And they are still swirling around without my drinking and whether or not I'm around. Hmmm, interesting. My wife has even said to me (on 2 occasions over the past 3 months) that she wished I would drink again, and she 'gave me permission' to drink beer again. This hasn't happened in some time.
> 
> And now, I am no longer looking forward to meetings, I find the big book stories way too contrived, I'm tired of the self-flagellation (I'm an alcoholic, broken, I've wrecked my life (which I haven't), and although I "look for the similarities and not the differences" there hasn't been anyone in the meetings who hasn't seem to have had serious detox (or multiple times), stints in rehab, multiple addictions, and all the things I haven't 'not yet' done. I also feel the 'brainwash' that if I don't keep going, I'll be done for. I don't feel that I am _really allowed - " to take what works and leave the rest" since I really don't feel drawn to 'do the steps' or continue with meetings on a regular basis, etc. So I can take what works and leave the rest so long as it's all the things I'm supposed to be doing.
> 
> I don't know what I'm really asking here. I know I don't need anyone's permission to stop AA altogether. I sort of feel like I have drunk the AA kool-aid, it hasn't settled right, I can't puke it up, but can't really move on without doing that. And of course, the people I feel most comfortable talking with about this are other AAers who are sober, happy, working the program, etc (which is all REALLY great for them and I don't regret them this at all).
> 
> I dunno . . . any thoughts, comments, suggestions????_


_
Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brazerkus

brazerkus said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


have you checked out Moderation Management? it is online and helps people to moderate their drinking or abstain, or both. good tools to help. I can't do the AA thing either, and MM is helping a lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Freak On a Leash

stupad said:


> 'Crosstalk' meaning discussion among members in the meetings as opposed to leader-speak followed by soliloquies?


Yep, that's what turned me off about Al-anon. I felt it was all read from the book and be preached at. Reminded me of church. I wanted to interact with others who were going through what I was going through. When I attempted to engage in conversation I was told "that wasn't permitted". Totally bizarre IMO.


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## stupad

Brazerkus - I'll check it out.

Freak - agreed. But at least at church, the message is divinely inspired (if you are to believe in this). With AA, the 'higher power' can be anything. Which, still has me a bit stumped TBH.

I dunno . . .if it sounds like God, feels like God and works like God, frigging call it GOD. Or don't call it anything. Again, I don't mean to offend anyone whose higher power is something else, but this is just another aspect of AA that I "don't get" and since it is something pretty core to AA teaching, is a source of conflict for me.

IMHO : )


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## Chris H.

The reason behind the ambiguity about God or a higher power in AA is because many people come from many different religions. They have people from all walks of life in the program. If you're not sure what your higher power is, the program encourages you to search that out.


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## stupad

Hi Chris . . . I get the 'logical' reasons for the HP thing and not scaring people away who do not believe in God, or not sure what they believe. BUt then at some point in the steps, one has to have some sort of HP to get through the step and then I feel it's sort of a double-speak of HP is God (or not, or maybe), but HP doesn't have to be God or a god - it can be whatever you want it to be, but it has to be an HP to be powerless to, to take away cravings, etc. 

And as I babble about this, I guess it's really about having some sort of faith, and one needs a placeholder of sorts to have faith 'in' something. And once one starts talking about faith, due to the very nature of faith, all 'logical' and rational arguements don't really come into play - since faith is not about rational thought. 

And I think I'll stop at this point so as to not get more antagonistic. (But not to stop the discussion).


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## Yardman

One AA saying that rubbed me the wrong way was;

GOD= Group Of Drunks

Something they would say to people who were uneasy with the Higher Power/God concept encouraging them to make the group their Higher Power.


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## Jasminaa

maybe some 1 on 1 counseling would work better? Are you weary of AA for the religious stance it has?


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## stupad

There are a number of reasons. The 'churchy' aspect is not a problem for me per se (as it is for many).

Let's just say that there are a number of reasons (most have been discussed on this thread) and if I were to get into them here I would be concerned about offending someone or potentially turning someone off to something that may help them.


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## ren

Chris H. said:


> The reason behind the ambiguity about God or a higher power in AA is because many people come from many different religions. They have people from all walks of life in the program. If you're not sure what your higher power is, the program encourages you to search that out.


They receive government funding and many courts mandate attendance when sentencing alleged alcoholics. 

I've never been to AA but I know people who have and I've done some research into their history and methods. I think it's great some people find the 12-step program helpful, but in reality AA's model of addiction is not based on science and their methods have no proven efficacy. AA is essentially a cult built on the placebo effect and a religious folk-psychology understanding of addiction. Their efforts are certainly noble but they mislead people from more effective treatment.


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## Chris H.

ren said:


> They receive government funding and many courts mandate attendance when sentencing alleged alcoholics.


Receiving Government funding or funding from any outside source is against AA's 12 traditions. So if you know of a group doing that, please report it to AA World Services (AA.org).

The reason courts mandate people to attend AA meetings is because it costs nothing for them to attend, and it is one of the best known solutions to the problem of alcoholism.


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## Yardman

Chris H. said:


> The reason courts mandate people to attend AA meetings is because it costs nothing for them to attend, and it is one of the best known solutions to the problem of alcoholism.


Chris, I agree the main reason they send people to AA is because of cost.

Is it really the best treatment? Most research says it gets between 5%-15% results. If quesitoned, AA will claim they operate on an annonous basis and results cant be figured out. If bragging, like old Bill did, it's damm near fool proof.

What got my goat was the preamble;

Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.


So, I was either not willing enough, not honest with myself, or just a F-Up that was born that way, or I'm insane.

Chris, I'm not blasting you if AA is what worked for you (if you went down that path). Just don't Ass-U-Me it will work for everyone because that is what you did or observed others doing.

It would be awesome to see a personality trait test matching folks to different recovery programs. It is odd to me that in this day "experts" still refer people to a spiritual/religous program that totally blaims the participant for any failure to achieve sobriety.

I just want to say, if anyone is just going into this program:
PLEASE CHOICE YOUR SPONSER CAREFULLY!!!!!
THERE IS NO CERTIFICATION TO BE A SPONSOR!!!!

I was burned by a sponsor who used my "confession" as a means to blackmail me as so as I decide to leave the "PROGRAM".

Oh, never get a "sponsor" of the opposite gender. I didn't and can only imagine how crazy that could have been.


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## Yardman

Another issue I see;

AA says to put your sobriety first and requires/encourages frequent meeting attendance. I understand it is better to hang out with sober folks instead of hitting bars or drinking alone. My personal observations are that many AA'ers leave their spose for another AA'er.

Then there is the 13'th stepping thing. That's more of a taking advage of a vulerable person/newbie by an experienced elder/sponsor.

Much of what I saw was an exchange of drug/alcohol addiction into an EA with a sponsor or another member of AA NA. Often it went sexual. Perhaps it was a matter of changing the way the brain got off into a happy place via dopamine and whatnot. IKN, but saw too frequently.


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## Runs like Dog

AA'rs, the real serious ones it's a bit like a religion with them. And not the churchy Jesus trust in the lord stuff - I mean the world view, the ethos, the weight and value it places on their lives and what they put their faith in.


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## Mindful Coach

Um, there is no such thing as "confession" in AA, I imagine you are talking about working your fifth step. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience. Remember, sponsors were drunks at one time too and just because a person stops drinking, doesn't always mean they stopped being an a##. If you are talking about the fifth step, get a priest, life coach, or someone that you TRUST is bound to confidentiality. Some coaches, counselors, etc.. will do your fifth step for you free of charge as I do.

It WAS built on medical and scientific principles, and it uses "Higher Power" because it's available to ANYONE regardless of belief system. Including atheists that will use the group or even their own common sense as a higher power (Their common sense knows they shouldn't drink)

AA is not just about "Don't Drink", it's about recovery from all the f***(#d up things that happened in your life because of or the reason for your drinking. It creates a new perspective without dogma, although some meetings will have their own fair share. For that, I'd suggest, find a new meeting if that bothers you.

I'm not in recovery, but have strong ties to it. It's a life saver. The Alcoholics Anonymous "Big Book" has sold over 30 million copies and is still going strong. There are over 5,000 meetings held worldwide. AND, it's been around since the 1930s. Doesn't that give you a slight clue that it works if you work it? It wouldn't be the organization it is today if it didn't.

Take what works and leave the rest on the shelf. Not every aspect of AA is going to make sense to you, but the parts that will can save your life. I'll have someone save a seat for you!


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## Chris H.

Yardman said:


> Is it really the best treatment? Most research says it gets between 5%-15% results. If quesitoned, AA will claim they operate on an annonous basis and results cant be figured out. If bragging, like old Bill did, it's damm near fool proof.


I already addressed this in an earlier post, there is no research available that could accurately report on AA's success. Like you said yourself, they don't allow people to survey their membership. I would also seriously question how accurately people in recovery would report on this very personal subject. Given the nature of addiction and the amount of deception involved, it is pretty tough to measure.




Yardman said:


> So, I was either not willing enough, not honest with myself, or just a F-Up that was born that way, or I'm insane.


Regardless, I would never judge you like that. I hope you don't judge yourself that way.



Yardman said:


> Chris, I'm not blasting you if AA is what worked for you (if you went down that path). Just don't Ass-U-Me it will work for everyone because that is what you did or observed others doing.


If you read my earlier posts, you will see that I freely admit the program doesn't work for everyone.



Yardman said:


> I just want to say, if anyone is just going into this program:
> PLEASE CHOICE YOUR SPONSER CAREFULLY!!!!!
> THERE IS NO CERTIFICATION TO BE A SPONSOR!!!!
> 
> I was burned by a sponsor who used my "confession" as a means to blackmail me as so as I decide to leave the "PROGRAM".


I agree that people should choose sponsors carefully, and try to use your best judgement. You're right, there is no "certification." I'm really sorry about the experience you had, I wish that would never happen.

AA is about alcoholics helping other alcoholics stay sober, plain and simple. Sometimes you won't get the best advice on that no matter who you turn to. It is best to have a few people with long term sobriety to "bounce things off of." (Especially when you're trying to get through some difficult situations).



Yardman said:


> Oh, never get a "sponsor" of the opposite gender. I didn't and can only imagine how crazy that could have been.


Agree here too.



Yardman said:


> AA says to put your sobriety first and requires/encourages frequent meeting attendance. I understand it is better to hang out with sober folks instead of hitting bars or drinking alone. My personal observations are that many AA'ers leave their spose for another AA'er.
> 
> Then there is the 13'th stepping thing. That's more of a taking advage of a vulerable person/newbie by an experienced elder/sponsor.
> 
> Much of what I saw was an exchange of drug/alcohol addiction into an EA with a sponsor or another member of AA NA. Often it went sexual. Perhaps it was a matter of changing the way the brain got off into a happy place via dopamine and whatnot. IKN, but saw too frequently.


Wow, I've been in the program 11 years, and I don't see this. Maybe because I don't get involved in other people's drama, or maybe because I don't hang out with people who would do this kind of stuff. I'm married to a woman who drinks occasionally, and she has never had an issue with it, and I've never thought about leaving her for an AA member.

Honestly, it sounds like you were around some people who were not really doing what they were supposed to be doing. I'm sorry you had that experience. Not all of AA is like that.


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## Mindful Coach

brazerkus said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, I would say perhaps your bottom wasn't as low as some bottoms, or perhaps you aren't an alcoholic. Or, maybe you didn't get around to enough meetings to find one that you felt more comfortable in. Every meeting has it's own personality due to the people that frequent them, and there are as many alcoholics that didn't hit rock bottom with multiple addictions as there are those who did.

Heavy drinking and alcoholism are two different things. Moderation management may work great for you, chances are you had problems with drinking heavily and need to learn moderation and discipline. That is not the case for an alcoholic. Alcoholism cannot be moderated, one drink is too many and a thousand drinks is not enough. There are actually measured changes in a persons chemistry on a cellular level as an alcoholic that aren't present in non-alcoholics, and also a completely different mindset. 

If MM works for you, that's excellent, but you may want to be careful about suggesting it too often because it could be a death sentence for a true alcoholic.


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## stupad

Hey - there's been some terrific debate on this thread. Thanks to everyone who as contributed. I look forward to reading more. A couple things I'd like to throw out there:

Success of AA
I've seen this point raised a lot. I think the issue is that AA will have people believe that the 'program' can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with some of the 'medical treatments' that are available (be it meds to reduce inebriation, desire, anti-depressants, or nutritional treatments, etc. etc). Many of these treatments (from what I've read) have had studies with control groups, on-going assessments, and longer-term reviews (eg, how many participants in the program are no longer drinking XX time from completion) and thus can assign a success/failure rate. AA doesn't do this - and this is not bad in and of itself, but when some schmuck like me is trying to figure out how to get out of the cycle of alcohol abuse, get better, enter 'recovery' (whatever the hell that is - everyone seems to be recovering from something these days), or, if I am an alkie, abuser, whatever, there are confusing messages out there in terms of what 'works' and what doesn't. (And of course, this should all be in the context of what works/doesn't for _whom).

AA is a Cult/Religion/Whatever
In an earlier post, I addressed the Higher Power question/issue. And in the course of that babbling, I came around to thinking that what the HP is, is irrevalent, but having belief (and by extension, 'faith') is what seems to be at center issue. So, for the AAers who refute the religion aspect of it, I can't see the grounds for this (even many meetings are held in churches - and I know that is besides the point).

AND - more importantly, we shouldn't forget that there probably isn't a 'legitimate' religion in the world that has not been corrupted, bastardized, manipulated, etc for the benefit of 'those in control' at that point of time. (Think abuse of power of early popes, radical Islam, Jim Jones, and that yahoo recently in the news 'from' the CLDS - with the compound and young concubines). So, unfortunately with any organization there will be deviants at play - and the very nature of the AA organization enables this to continue since there isn't a universal governing or policing body.

Philosophy of AA is Self-preserving / Protectionist
As YardMan noted in the AA big book, the wording is such that if someone fails at AA, it is the fault of the person themself (or more precisely, they 'were born that way' (Has Gaga weighed in on this issue??). Wow, this is a bit of a tough pill to swallow (or shot to knock back, as the case may be). And to be honest, this was a big point for me; if I were to 'buy into' the AA model, lock, stock and barrel, and I kept drinking . . . oh man! I am so hosed. I'm done for. Something about this doesn't sit right with me.

Anyway, just a few (extra) thoughts on this. Perhaps this is such a contested issue because:
1. it is faith-based (but AA seems to proclaim that it is not), 
2. one of its basic tenents is if it doesn't work, it ain't our fault (this would draw skepticism in any arena).
3. there are no hard facts to back up its success (and conversely, none to prove its failure either)

As I said before, I am all for anything that will help someone to improve their lives. But I think I would like to have a more straight-shooting account of what's what out there. Something that makes more sense and appeals to both my logical side as well as spiritual. 

But, given the target audience for AA (desparate alkies), maybe this is not the best route. Thanks again everyone . . . keep the comments coming._


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## Mindful Coach

Hey Stupad, This is a great discussion!

"there's been some terrific debate on this thread. Thanks to everyone who as contributed. I look forward to reading more. A couple things I'd like to throw out there:

Success of AA
I've seen this point raised a lot. I think the issue is that AA will have people believe that the 'program' can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with some of the 'medical treatments' that are available (be it meds to reduce inebriation, desire, anti-depressants, or nutritional treatments, etc. etc). Many of these treatments (from what I've read) have had studies with control groups, on-going assessments, and longer-term reviews (eg, how many participants in the program are no longer drinking XX time from completion) and thus can assign a success/failure rate. AA doesn't do this - and this is not bad in and of itself, but when some schmuck like me is trying to figure out how to get out of the cycle of alcohol abuse, get better, enter 'recovery' (whatever the hell that is - everyone seems to be recovering from something these days), or, if I am an alkie, abuser, whatever, there are confusing messages out there in terms of what 'works' and what doesn't. (And of course, this should all be in the context of what works/doesn't for _whom)."

***AA does stand up to the medical treatments out there. It was Co-Founded with a medical doctor, even though it doesn't treat you with meds or surgery. Meds may help, especially if you are using alcohol to self-medicate depression, anxiety, PTSD, and some meds will make you extremely ill if you drink. I've seen people opt for getting extremely ill when taking those meds so they can still get their drink on - so effectiveness really is up to the individual. I would see a psychiatrist to screen for mental health and to see if anti-depressants, etc... will help you stop using alcohol if you are self-medicating.

NOTHING is going to keep you sober except yourself. There is no magic pill, no "cure". AA is to help YOU stay sober, not MAKE you be sober, again NOTHING will do what you need to do for yourself. You really have to do your own leg work whether you choose a program, meds, or try to white knuckle it.

"AA is a Cult/Religion/Whatever
In an earlier post, I addressed the Higher Power question/issue. And in the course of that babbling, I came around to thinking that what the HP is, is irrevalent, but having belief (and by extension, 'faith') is what seems to be at center issue. So, for the AAers who refute the religion aspect of it, I can't see the grounds for this (even many meetings are held in churches - and I know that is besides the point).

AND - more importantly, we shouldn't forget that there probably isn't a 'legitimate' religion in the world that has not been corrupted, bastardized, manipulated, etc for the benefit of 'those in control' at that point of time. (Think abuse of power of early popes, radical Islam, Jim Jones, and that yahoo recently in the news 'from' the CLDS - with the compound and young concubines). So, unfortunately with any organization there will be deviants at play - and the very nature of the AA organization enables this to continue since there isn't a universal governing or policing body."

***Of course there are going to be those with a strong faith. You are going to hear Christians talking about prayer, buddhists talking about mindfulness, muslims talking about Allah, and atheists talking about other beliefs. It's up to you if you follow their faith or create your own. With over 5,000 meetings worldwide, you are bound to find a meeting in your area that best fits for your own personal faith or lack thereof. 

I personally know atheists that thrive in AA environments, so it reall doesn't matter if you have faith in any thing in particular, or your own common sense as a higher power. The point is to learn a new way of thinking, because your best thinking got you into the drinking problem - and as Einsteins says, you can't fix a problem with the same thought that created it.

"Philosophy of AA is Self-preserving / Protectionist As YardMan noted in the AA big book, the wording is such that if someone fails at AA, it is the fault of the person themself (or more precisely, they 'were born that way' (Has Gaga weighed in on this issue??). Wow, this is a bit of a tough pill to swallow (or shot to knock back, as the case may be). And to be honest, this was a big point for me; if I were to 'buy into' the AA model, lock, stock and barrel, and I kept drinking . . . oh man! I am so hosed. I'm done for. Something about this doesn't sit right with me."

***That's right, it's not AA's fault if you fail. You are a person of free will and AA isn't about fixing you, it's about helping you fix yourself. It's about owning your part in your own actions and stop blaming everything and everyone else if you decide to drink. Really, a lot of the program expects you to "Man/Woman up" about your own drinking, so if you are looking for a program that is going to do it for you, or sit with you while you live in self-pity and blame, then you probably aren't ready to really get into any sort of serious recovery program.

"Anyway, just a few (extra) thoughts on this. Perhaps this is such a contested issue because:
1. it is faith-based (but AA seems to proclaim that it is not), 2. one of its basic tenents is if it doesn't work, it ain't our fault (this would draw skepticism in any arena).
3. there are no hard facts to back up its success (and conversely, none to prove its failure either)"

***1. Faith Based - it's not. Spiritual based, it is. Again, even atheists can find something to use for that part of the program.
2. Damn right. If it doesn't work, it's not AA's fault, its your fault. They give you the tools, it's up to you if you use them or not.
3. Stick around the rooms for awhile and you'll see the hard facts loud and clear. It saves lives and anyone that's been involved with AA for any length of time at all will see it working in action. This is a GROWING program, since the 1930s, it's stuck around and is thriving for a reason and millions of people can't be that far off base.

"As I said before, I am all for anything that will help someone to improve their lives. But I think I would like to have a more straight-shooting account of what's what out there. Something that makes more sense and appeals to both my logical side as well as spiritual. " 

***Logical - "Don't drink today" - AA premise, can't get any more logical than that.
Spiritual - Define what is spiritual for you and apply the AA tools to that, if others in the meeting insist you do it "their way", it's not the right meeting for you, find another one that is more open minded about spirituality, they ARE out there.

Are you sure you aren't just looking for a program that is going to hold your hand and do it all for you? That's what it sounds like you are looking for. AA will challenge you, it will make you work, it will hold you accountable. There isn't a program in existence that doesn't expect that same thing and if it does, it's a sham. There is not a medicine, a surgery, or magic wand that will take away YOUR free will. 

"But, given the target audience for AA (desparate alkies), maybe this is not the best route. Thanks again everyone . . . keep the comments coming."

***AA is for anyone that has a desire to quit drinking. Desparate alkies it is not, although many have hit some pretty hard rock bottom places before they decided to sober up. 

Oh, and to clarify, I'm not an AAer, nor am I an alcoholic. I am not brain washed by anything. I'm a firm believer in the program because I've seen proof that it works, over, and over, and over again. I know people with more years of sobriety than I am alive, and people still struggling. AA is hands down the best program for recovery and it's modeled by narcotics anonymous, gamblers anonymous, overeaters anonymous, etc.... it wouldn't be that way if it wasn't effective. It doesn't charge you for services, it is not a for profit agency, it does not own property, it is simply a program that helps people live sober lives, no hidden agenda._


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## Chris H.

stupad said:


> Anyway, just a few (extra) thoughts on this. Perhaps this is such a contested issue because:
> 1. it is faith-based (but AA seems to proclaim that it is not),
> 2. one of its basic tenents is if it doesn't work, it ain't our fault (this would draw skepticism in any arena).
> 3. there are no hard facts to back up its success (and conversely, none to prove its failure either)


Just my opinion here, I can't speak for AA although, the website is pretty clear if you read the 12 steps and 12 traditions.

1. Faith based - Not really, like MC said, there are many atheists and agnostics who are successful with the AA program. The important concept behind steps 1-3, is that an alcoholic must stop relying on self-will, will power, etc. in order to stay sober. If you can work out steps 1-3 with a sponsor and your idea of what your higher power is going to be, then you can do this without being aligned with any particular religion.

2. "If it doesn't work, it aint our fault" - I would think that is the case with any program. Would you seriously blame the Betty Ford clinic if you relapsed right after being discharged? Personal responsibility needs to be taken into account with whatever recovery plan you choose.

3. I have enough experience from being in recovery firsthand, and from my educational background, that I would seriously question any studies or published statistics on recovery from alcoholism and addiction whether they involve AA or any other program.


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## stupad

Hi MC . . .thanks for your posts. FYI - I am in a much better place then I was when I started this thread several months ago. This started off as my search for getting some help with an issue I had but is not about my search for a magic pill or someone else to fix me (although if I were to find this I could become grossly wealthy and fix many of the world's problems). 

And given where I'm at now, my experiences - both sober and not - I still find this an interesting topic. When I started this thread I had my share of opinions about AA (and other programs) and having spent some time (90 days/90 meetings) in 'the rooms' and doing the program (to extent that I can 'take what I need and leave the rest' ) I personally still have lingering thoughts and concerns about AA - and perhaps to a broader extent - the nature of alcohol-abuse/addiction - at least as it pertains to me - since I am in no position to opine about others' experiences.

And maybe part of my issue is that if AA is such a good program (and I am NOT saying that it is not a good program) - why do I find so many things that just don't seem to 'line up for me'



Mindful Coach said:


> ***AA does stand up to the medical treatments out there..


I don't doubt what you've written, but I was thinking more in terms of FDA-type testing for effectiveness. There were some programs I looked into that could 'document' that XX% of participants reported being sober XX months after treatment. And yes, one can argue that the former drunks are drunk again and lying about it (since we all know that's what drunks do (I'm being facetious) and yes, it is the individual's choice to pick up again or not. When one type of treatment is willing to put up numbers and another is not, whether good, bad or indiffernet there is suspicion raised (and maybe, one should be suspicous equally with the treatment that would even attempt to post such figures).



Mindful Coach said:


> I personally know atheists that thrive in AA environments, so it reall doesn't matter if you have faith in any thing in particular, or your own common sense as a higher power. The point is to learn a new way of thinking, because your best thinking got you into the drinking problem - and as Einsteins says, you can't fix a problem with the same thought that created it.


Agreed - I still don't get why all the talk about a HP, giving over powerlessness to the HP - which all sound like 'faith' to me (maybe we're just talking semantics). And if it's just about changing one's thoughts, then why don't they just say that and leave the faith/HP stuff to the churches/mosques/synagoges and temples?

It's just made out to be more complicated than it needs be - I think. 



Mindful Coach said:


> ***That's right, it's not AA's fault if you fail. You are a person of free will and AA isn't about fixing you, it's about helping you fix yourself. It's about owning your part in your own actions and stop blaming everything and everyone else if you decide to drink.


I'm good with this. But I'm not good with this at the same time saying it's a disease like diabetes. Both of these thoughts cannot exist at the same time. If I take my insulin shots as prescribed by a medical dr. and my blood sugar is still out of whack - then it's my fault, right? Sorry, just trying to make logical sense out of something that 'seems' to want to be logical. Or if I'm depressed and my meds don't help, it's my fault? And I have been depressed and can speak from my own experience (and being devil's advocate here . . . errr . . . not the devil . . .my anti-HP advocate (just to be PC) : ))

Is this sort of like saying I have a cancer med that is 100% effective. But if it's not, it's the patient's fault. IF we are to go with the 'alcoholism is a disease like other diseases' routine. ANd yes, the AMA has 'made' it a disease (or so I've heard in my Beginner's meeting) and therefore it HAS to be true. 



Mindful Coach said:


> ***1. Faith Based - it's not. Spiritual based, it is. Again, even atheists can find something to use for that part of the program.


Semantics?



Mindful Coach said:


> 3. Stick around the rooms for awhile and you'll see the hard facts loud and clear.


From my experience, not true.



Mindful Coach said:


> It saves lives and anyone that's been involved with AA for any length of time at all will see it working in action.


Agreed. Works for some. Who aren't 'born that way'



Mindful Coach said:


> This is a GROWING program, since the 1930s, it's stuck around and is thriving for a reason and millions of people can't be that far off base.


From what I've looked around for - it seems the only game in town - not sure why that is when there seems to be a good deal of bad vibes against it - and I am not advocating the 'bad viber' - just saying.



Mindful Coach said:


> ***Logical - "Don't drink today" - AA premise, can't get any more logical than that.


Yep - real simple. But not necessarily easy in a way that someone who hasn't been there cannot possibly know. E.g., giving up heroine, crack or meth must be really easy. I've never tried any of those, but it must be so easy to give it up since I go through each day without even a thought about them.



Mindful Coach said:


> if others in the meeting insist you do it "their way", it's not the right meeting for you, find another one that is more open minded about spirituality, they ARE out there.


Hmmmm . . . this is another big one for me - it works, it really does, you just have to find the right AA meeting for you, since they're all different. But wait, I thought it was all AA. Yes, but you have to find the right one. 

Circular logic much? I am not trying to be negative here - just repeating what I've heard.



Mindful Coach said:


> Are you sure you aren't just looking for a program that is going to hold your hand and do it all for you? That's what it sounds like you are looking for.


Not at all on both counts.




Mindful Coach said:


> There is not a medicine, a surgery, or magic wand that will take away YOUR free will.


But I was told in AA that if I do exactly what my sponsor tells me to do, the 'program' works. This is not 'free will'. Or maybe I need to find another meeting. Or I guess I have free will to do exactly what the sponsor tells me to do, or maybe I wasn't born that way, or . . .

And, maybe that's why there remains such contention about this topic . . (??)



Mindful Coach said:


> Oh, and to clarify, I'm not an AAer, nor am I an alcoholic. I am not brain washed by anything. I'm a firm believer in the program because I've seen proof that it works, over, and over, and over again.


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## Mindful Coach

I've responded without the quotes this time. I hope it still makes sense. 

Alcoholics anonymous simply isn't built to provide qualitative and quantifying reporting systems. Due to the anonymous nature, it's not like people sign in and agree to answer polls about whether they remained sober or not. Longevity of the program, growth in amount/number of meetings, worldwide involvement, multiple other programs modeled around it should be enough evidence that it's working. 

I like that you mentioned depression and being a diabetic. Yes, you can still stay depressed even if you are on meds and it's not the meds fault. If you are not doing the work of learning to get out of feeling sorry for yourself, getting out of isolation, and back into life, you will probably stay depressed no matter what meds are given to you. Diabetes, the same, if you aren't doing things to take care of yourself, even the meds aren't going to save you. 

Depression, alcoholism, diabetes, they are examples of maintenance deseases. You have to "do" things to stay well, not "just" take medicine.

With alcoholics, they have been able to actually measure cell mutations that are not evident in non-alcoholics. One reason why it's looked at as a desease - a maintenance desease that is incurable, but manageable.

Cancer on the other hand is a desease you either recover from or die from. Once you go through everything you can go through to get rid of the cancer, you don't have to do maintenance work to keep it from killing you. You might do things to lessen your chances of it returning, like stop smoking or wear sun screen, but it's a horse of a different color, not considered a maintenance desease.

How is changing your own thinking working for you? The Higher Power is a vehicle to change the thinking because your own mind is probably a really unsafe place to try to do that. The furthest distance you can travel out of addiction is from your head to your heart. Your head tells you it's okay to lie, it's okay to be selfish, hurt those you love with your drinking and while your head can say "Okay, I'll think differently, that's just a mind game. Your heart, common sense, intution - HIGHER POWER tells you otherwise - every time - no mental game. Thereby adding to the simplicity of the program - not taking away from it. 

Following a higher power keeps you out of your head and into a place where honesty, integrity and peace can be found. Meditation, prayer, activities that are done in spiritual pursuits changes your physiology (google that, there is tons of research on the benefits of prayer/meditation) - which is also extremely beneficial to those looking to recover. When I say recover, I am not talking about just don't drink. I'm talking about all the other symptoms that go along with that, including the lying, inflated ego with an inferiority complex, and other character defects that are atypical with alcoholics.

If you didn't meet others in your AA experience that have shared with you that AA saved their lives, I would say go back to the meetings, shake hands, introduce yourself and ask them, Listen to the leads too. Sitting in the back corner isn't going to give you much experience. Or, go to google and search on AA saved my life. That way will be a little faster.

Born that way has nothing to do with it. What page of the Big Book did you find that in? AA believes the only people incapable of recovery are those that are incapable of becoming rigorously honest with themselves.

Of course there are bad vibes about it. Perhaps someone went to a meeting that left a bad taste in their mouth, perhaps they got bad information without doing the due diligence of their own research, perhaps the alcoholic still wants to drink. You know what they say about opinions! I like to stick to the facts.

No one said it was easy. There are a lot of things that are simple but not easy. You might think about having a drink every second of every day, but don't do it. Don't drink today, very simple concept and if it were easy, you wouldn't need a program for it. AA gives you tools to help you not drink today. 

Who said it was all AA? Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship program. There are going to be as many different types of fellowships as there are people and that is a beautiful thing. So yes, finding the right meeting is important. 

If you want to learn how to do brain surgery, you would probably go to medical school and you would probably want to follow what your instructors told you for conducting surgery, the way they tell you how to do it. Did they steal your free will? Doing it your own way probably wouldn't work so well. So, you want to learn to live a sober life and don't think you need to listen to anyone help teach you how to do it? If that worked, then there would be no needs for programs. Listening to your sponsor is like listening to a teacher, it's nothing to do with taking your free will.

In a nutshell, intellectuilizing it isn't helping. Alcoholism affects every walk of life and if it were that easy to figure out, there wouldn't be a need for programs, we could just think about the problem in our heads until we came up with a solution. As you said AA is the only program around. There are other programs, but they typically die out very quickly because they don't work. AA works with over 70 years of proof for that. Maybe it doesn't have to make sense. Personally there is a lot of things that don't make sense, but if they work, then that's okay with me.


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## stupad

I guess you're right. I'm just speaking from my own experience in the program (90/90 and all that). Sounds like you have a lot more experience with it though. Thanks!


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## Chris H.

Stupad, this is not aimed at you, but if any of it fits, hopefully it will be useful.

There is so much dis-information on the web about AA, and I find that most of it comes off as people who are trying to justify to themselves why AA is not right for them. 

Why? 

Either so they can continue to drink, or so they can continue to live in fear by avoiding the type of change and commitment that AA requires.

They judge all of AA (which is probably one of the largest organized groups of people in the world) based on very limited experiences with small numbers of AA groups and people.

It takes me aback to see this, because when I look at AA as a whole, and all of the people it helps free of charge, I think to myself "why would anyone want to say such negative things about such a helpful organization?"

I feel obligated to come on here and defend AA, because it saved my life and has been nothing but a positive influence on me, helping me to live a better life year after year that I keep attending. 

I've got about 11.5 years sober at this point in time, and that is not by my doing. I owe it all to the 12 steps of AA and my sponsors I've had over the years.

So you can see the program is very personal to me.

Coming on this thread to defend the program against misinformation is very time consuming. If we continue to get random posts spreading BS, I'm going to shut it down. In other words, TAM isn't going to become a bullhorn for the people who want to spread that kind of negativity.


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## stupad

Interesting. I started this thread to find alternatives to AA - but the conversation keeps coming back to AA - both pro and con. Truly a controversial topic. And something keeps gnawing at me - if it's all that it's cracked up to be, why all the controversy???

For the record, I have not been critical of AA in that I acknowledge that it works FOR SOME. I have been critical that much of the logic and reasoning and teaching/preaching is circular and self-serving/promoting. I've also seen and heard many things in the program - in the rooms - that is contradictory in its teachings - read through my posts. And please don't give me any more crap about I need to find another meeting - in my 90/90, I've been to plenty - and I'm not talking about the people who give the same drunk-a-logue every meeting - I'm talking about the 'normal' AAers.

And even more interesting, I took the advice of several at the start of this thread and didn't knock AA until I tried it. I did the 90/90 and I still have questions and concerns about the program. BUT - it doesn't seem to matter that I have tried it, the fact that I am still not comfortable with it seems to have been met with quite a bit of resentment and hostility toward me. The past few posters have accused me of looking for magic pills, getting someone else to do the work for me, not having commitment or afraid of change. I HAVE BEEN SOBER and plan to remain so. I'm not looking for a scapegoat - just some common sense cutting out the BS. But there are some, and not you CHris, who have not even done the program who seem hell bent on telling me how I did it wrong. And you pro-AAers don't get why some people are leery of this??? Really?

AND YOU ALL THINK THIS IS NORMAL? And in this spirit, people should be accepting of AA?? 

As I said repeatedly on this thread - if it works, that's great. But it would be nice to get past the name-calling and blame shifting if it doesn't work. But I see that there is no room here for common sense - just lots of pseudo-religious/spirituality/whateveryouwanttocallit BS. OK -so now I know the score.

But that I have raised specific concerns drawn from my own experiences, Chris, you have threatened to shut down this thread since you don't agree with what I have experienced. And I am not, and have not bashed AA. Although, it would seem questioning it in any manner seems to be misconstrued as bashing. Sorry to have offended you and your cronies.

I'm glad you're sober and it worked for you but my experiences do not fit into the AA propaganda machine - and so you will shut this down. Way to go big guy!

That, is a bit scary! And the next time someone mentions the cult-like sense that some have of AA, guess what/who will come to mind. 

One Day at a Time. See ya . . .


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## Chris H.

stupad said:


> But that I have raised specific concerns drawn from my own experiences, Chris, you have threatened to shut down this thread since you don't agree with what I have experienced. And I am not, and have not bashed AA. Although, it would seem questioning it in any manner seems to be misconstrued as bashing. Sorry to have offended you and your cronies.
> 
> I'm glad you're sober and it worked for you but my experiences do not fit into the AA propaganda machine - and so you will shut this down. Way to go big guy!
> 
> That, is a bit scary! And the next time someone mentions the cult-like sense that some have of AA, guess what/who will come to mind.
> 
> One Day at a Time. See ya . . .


I don't have a problem with your posts, there is nothing wrong with talking about your experiences and questioning the program. 

In general, I think it's good practice to question anything you are dedicating your time to in life.

The problem I have with the topic, is with people who make broad generalizations about the program and people involved based on limited experiences.

It's kind of like someone saying, "I knew this guy who worked for Red Cross, and he was a pedophile, so I don't want to have anything to do with that organization, they are a bunch of pedophiles."

It's the same ignorant logic that dominates in racist and sexist beliefs, which we don't allow to be posted here either.


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## stupad

Chris H. said:


> The problem I have with the topic, is with people who make broad generalizations about the program and people involved based on limited experiences.


And it would seem so long as the broad generalizations from someone not in the program agree with you, it seems ok to post here. But the expression of actual experiences in the program are not ok if they don't agree with you.

Got it.

Oh, I forgot, I need to find another meeting if you don't like what I have to say.


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## Chris H.

stupad said:


> And it would seem so long as the broad generalizations from someone not in the program agree with you, it seems ok to post here. But the expression of actual experiences in the program are not ok if they don't agree with you.
> 
> Got it.
> 
> Oh, I forgot, I need to find another meeting if you don't like what I have to say.


No, you're putting words in my mouth now, so this will be the end of the conversation. I have no problem with people reporting bad experiences at AA meetings, it happens.


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