# Good way to do it?



## gbrad

Is there a good way (or atleast better way) to bring up the idea of divorce with someone who you know loves you and wont want to get divorced? An approach to make the entire situation a little easier for everyone and cause less animosity in the end.


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## Openminded

Pick a quiet time with no distractions. Tell her you need to talk about something very important. Don't beat around the bush. You need to be gentle but firm. No false hope. You want out so make that clear up front. 

I know you don't want to hurt her but hurt is inevitable. And it won't be a quick process for her to get to acceptance. 

Be prepared. It's not easy.


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## gbrad

Is there anything that shouldn't be said or an approach that would be best to be avoided? I just keep racking my brain on what exactly to say that would cause the least amount of pain and make things go atleast a little more smoothly.


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## Openminded

She will likely be stunned. And disbelieving. She will probably cry. Possibly rage. She will also probably try to change your mind

Your job is to repeat over and over that you are sorry things have turned out this way. But let her know gently that you are determined in your path. You will need to give your reasons. Answer her questions. Over and over. It's a process -- not a one-time conversation. 

It's not going to be easy. It will hurt. A lot.


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## gbrad

Ok, when she asks about the reasons, what should or should not be said there?


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## Openminded

What are your reasons for wanting out?

No matter what you say it's going to be devastating to her. The important thing is not to give her false hope you will reconcile.


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## gbrad

Most of the reasons have to do with issues of being unhappy with her, but I don't want to tell her that. That approach will make her either hate me or become unhappy with herself and I don't want either of those things.


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## Openminded

Then you will have to take all the responsibility. Tell her you are not right for her. I'm not at all a diplomatic person so I'm not sure exactly what you should say but practice a lot before you say it so you are comfortable. 

She will, of course, be unhappy with herself anyway. No matter what you tell her it's going to be devastating.


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## Finding Nemo

gbrad said:


> Most of the reasons have to do with issues of being unhappy with her, but I don't want to tell her that. That approach will make her either hate me or become unhappy with herself and I don't want either of those things.



You are being unfair to her if you do not tell her the truth. If you are unhappy with her, it is not fair for you to sugar coat things. That being said, some thing tells me that Divorce is not what you want simply because you are showing this much concern about her. What have you done prior to this? Have you tried to sit and have a talk with her let her know that you are unhappy without throwing divorce into the mix?


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## gbrad

Finding Nemo said:


> You are being unfair to her if you do not tell her the truth. If you are unhappy with her, it is not fair for you to sugar coat things. That being said, some thing tells me that Divorce is not what you want simply because you are showing this much concern about her. What have you done prior to this? Have you tried to sit and have a talk with her let her know that you are unhappy without throwing divorce into the mix?


Telling her the truth I think will only hurt her more and I don't want that. I have no desire to hurt her, I'd be happy to be friends just not to be married with her. Though I know that is highly unlikely. But I do know this is what I want, I have thought about it for a long time, but have never been ready for it until now.


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## greenfern

You have been unhappy with her for a long time right? I am so glad to hear you are finally doing something about it! have to say reading your earlier threads it was really irking me on your wife's behalf that you were not honest with her.

I don't see how she can be as happy with the relationship as you say, given how unhappy you are. Maybe you should both see a mc or separation counselor to guide you both through the process. I would focus on the fact that your wife will in the long run be much happier being with a husband who is all in the relationship rather than someone waiting for the "right time" to leave.


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## gbrad

greenfern said:


> You have been unhappy with her for a long time right? I am so glad to hear you are finally doing something about it! have to say reading your earlier threads it was really irking me on your wife's behalf that you were not honest with her.
> 
> I don't see how she can be as happy with the relationship as you say, given how unhappy you are. Maybe you should both see a mc or separation counselor to guide you both through the process. I would focus on the fact that your wife will in the long run be much happier being with a husband who is all in the relationship rather than someone waiting for the "right time" to leave.


I appreciate your concern for my wife, but I do need to remind you that there are two people in this marriage. I hope she ends up finding someone that she has a happy life with after we are done. I also hope I find someone I end up happier with. We both deserve that. But I am very confident in saying that she is much happier in the marriage than I am currently. I know I want out, I know that she wont want it to end. 
I do plan on focusing on how her happiness can improve with a change. I do think that is the best way to approach it to prevent as much of the anger and resentment as possible.


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## greenfern

No, did you read my first two sentences? "I am so glad to hear you are finally doing something about it! ". I remember you posting back when I was a lurker and I was frustrated that you were so clearly "done" in your relationship but you just hadn't told the wife yet because you thought she would be happier living in ignorance.

The problem is that eventually her blinders will come off and she will see that you don't love her/haven't loved her. I dont' see how you can avoid that. Rip off the bandaid, seriously. She will move on, be happier hopefully, and you will move on and most certainly be happier.


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## 3Xnocharm

I think you need to be as gently honest with her as possible. Not being up front about your reasons would not be fair. And you are going to have to stand firm in your resolve, its not easy to sit there and tell someone over and over that no, you will not change your mind...no...no...no.... Been there done that, and it is HARD, and you will feel like a terrible human being. But you know its for the best. Good luck to you.


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## LIMBOLADY

gbrad said:


> Telling her the truth I think will only hurt her more and I don't want that. I have no desire to hurt her, I'd be happy to be friends just not to be married with her. Though I know that is highly unlikely. But I do know this is what I want, I have thought about it for a long time, but have never been ready for it until now.


As someone who is going through a very similar situation with my own STBXH, it would have been nice to know that "he had been thinking about getting out of the marriage for a long time" so that I possibly could have had a chance to fix it.

By the time he told me he was out - he was already checked out. Impossible to fix.

If I were you I would tell her and then leave asap. Mine is dragging his feet on the leaving part which only makes the entire situation worse.

And whatever you do, don't tell her "I love you but I'm not in love with you".

Good luck to you.


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## gbrad

greenfern said:


> No, did you read my first two sentences? "I am so glad to hear you are finally doing something about it! ". I remember you posting back when I was a lurker and I was frustrated that you were so clearly "done" in your relationship but you just hadn't told the wife yet because you thought she would be happier living in ignorance.
> 
> The problem is that eventually her blinders will come off and she will see that you don't love her/haven't loved her. I dont' see how you can avoid that. Rip off the bandaid, seriously. She will move on, be happier hopefully, and you will move on and most certainly be happier.


This is a delicate process, not something that can just be done like ripping off a bandaid. 



3Xnocharm said:


> I think you need to be as gently honest with her as possible. Not being up front about your reasons would not be fair. And you are going to have to stand firm in your resolve, its not easy to sit there and tell someone over and over that no, you will not change your mind...no...no...no.... Been there done that, and it is HARD, and you will feel like a terrible human being. But you know its for the best. Good luck to you.


I like the idea of being gently honest. I just have to choose what I am honest about. As long as what I tell her will help her see that this is what will be best for both of us, that is the goal. It will be painful in the beginning, but hopefully it will make it so it can end in a very civil way. Ideally we could get to a point where we could be friendly after the divorce is over, I know not right away, but at some point. 



LIMBOLADY said:


> As someone who is going through a very similar situation with my own STBXH, it would have been nice to know that "he had been thinking about getting out of the marriage for a long time" so that I possibly could have had a chance to fix it.
> 
> By the time he told me he was out - he was already checked out. Impossible to fix.
> 
> If I were you I would tell her and then leave asap. Mine is dragging his feet on the leaving part which only makes the entire situation worse.
> 
> And whatever you do, don't tell her "I love you but I'm not in love with you".
> 
> Good luck to you.


I don't think there was ever really the ability to completely fix what is wrong. We just aren't a good match, fixing it would have taken a lot of change by both our parts. I don't think marriage should have to be that much work. If two people fit more naturally together, its not that hard. 
And when I tell her I am not going to just up and leave. More than likely, she will be the one to leave.


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## just got it 55

gbrad said:


> Most of the reasons have to do with issues of being unhappy with her, but I don't want to tell her that. That approach will make her either hate me or become unhappy with herself and I don't want either of those things.


Just tell her the GOD D Truth


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## gbrad

just got it 55 said:


> Just tell her the GOD D Truth


So your suggestion is I hurt her more and make her hate me. That doesn't seem like a good situation for either of us. I don't understand why people would be calling for that.


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## 3Xnocharm

Ok, so if you dont want to tell her the truth, then what exactly WOULD you say? How would you approach this without that honesty?


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## gbrad

3Xnocharm said:


> Ok, so if you dont want to tell her the truth, then what exactly WOULD you say? How would you approach this without that honesty?


Well I don't want to say word for word what I am thinking of saying here. But I wouldn't talk about the things I don't like about her and our relationship. I would focus on how things would be better if we moved on.


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## 6301

I got news for you. You can tell her the truth or you can sugar coat an excuse but the long and the short of it is that no matter what the reason, to her, it won't be good enough. She will always have questions and your answers will only bring more questions. It's really a no win situation so if you have to, be honest and let the questions fly but try to put yourself in her shoes. You would do the same thing she would be doing.


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## 3Xnocharm

gbrad said:


> Well I don't want to say word for word what I am thinking of saying here. But I wouldn't talk about the things I don't like about her and our relationship. I would focus on how things would be better if we moved on.


She deserves to know what it is that you dont like. How is she supposed to move forward and do better in her future relationships if she isnt made aware of what went wrong in this one? She deserves the truth because she is your wife...she committed herself and her future to you. You OWE it to her to let her know WHY.


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## 3Xnocharm

Here is a post you made a year ago:

Re: Wanting a Divorce
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImStillHere View Post
Why do you want to divorce her? Have you met someone else?

No I have not met anyone else at this point. Life with her just, it is more work than it is worth. We do very little together. I do everything around the house. It is like I am taking care of and picking up after a kid when at home. We both work full time, but she puts her whole energy into her job. When we do spend time together, I don't really enjoy it anymore. I am not attracted to her, never really was. There is just so much involved and that just keeps building up, that it just doesn't seem worth it. I just keep thinking that life would be much nicer without being married to her. I don't say without her in it, because I do love and care about her. But I want to be with someone I enjoy and who I share a life with. 

Here is another:

Re: Wanting a Divorce
Quote:
Originally Posted by synthetic View Post
Have you told your wife about your intentions and feelings?
It would be very wrong if you haven't.

No I have not, because I don't want to hurt her. (I know, the idea of divorce will hurt at any point in time)

To the comments about counseling, negativity, and resentment-
I started the process towards divorce seemingly just under 2 years ago. I knew for me to get a divorce I would have to be able to support myself financially. (We both work, but at the time, neither made enough to support themselves if single). I also wanted to work to get out of the career I had and find something new. I did that, I started a program and I am getting close to the end of it. Once I get a job in that new field I will be able to make enough (maybe not right away, but much faster than where I am now) to support myself. This has not been an emotional decision based on the negativity and resentment. Of course those things contribute to it. I have tried to talk to my wife over the years about what it is that would make me happy in the marriage. She knows the things I want/need from her. She just does not make those things a priority.
I am not trying to say I am perfect, not by any means. It just seems, and has for a long time, that we live 2 separate lives. And she recognizes this as well. Or sex life, not that great, she wants it happen more often than it does. It doesn't because I am not attracted to her, so I don't want to that often with her.
I'll stop there with that update. Everyday life is just so hard with her. Being in a relationship with someone, shouldn't take this much work. 

*
I have also seen in your past threads that you never want to discuss your feelings or intentions with your wife. I also saw that you were having thoughts about other women and even a "date" with an OSF. Not cool. 

I think you owe it to her to let her know that she has not had a marriage for the last three years. You have been, and are being, a coward. You are not trying to avoid hurting her, you are hoping to avoid the aftermath. Man up.*


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## LIMBOLADY

gbrad said:


> This is a delicate process, not something that can just be done like ripping off a bandaid.
> 
> 
> 
> I like the idea of being gently honest. I just have to choose what I am honest about. As long as what I tell her will help her see that this is what will be best for both of us, that is the goal. It will be painful in the beginning, but hopefully it will make it so it can end in a very civil way. Ideally we could get to a point where we could be friendly after the divorce is over, I know not right away, but at some point.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think there was ever really the ability to completely fix what is wrong. We just aren't a good match, fixing it would have taken a lot of change by both our parts. I don't think marriage should have to be that much work. If two people fit more naturally together, its not that hard.
> And when I tell her I am not going to just up and leave. More than likely, she will be the one to leave.


Seriously???? Why should she be the one to leave??? You clearly want out of the marriage.

A marriage is work! Good times and bad! There will always be work in any marriage. What it comes down to is that you BOTH have to want to.

Once again, I wish you luck. There is no easy answer to any of this.


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## gbrad

LIMBOLADY said:


> Seriously???? Why should she be the one to leave??? You clearly want out of the marriage.
> 
> A marriage is work! Good times and bad! There will always be work in any marriage. What it comes down to is that you BOTH have to want to.
> 
> Once again, I wish you luck. There is no easy answer to any of this.


She would leave because if anyone has claim to the house, it is my house. If you have read any amount of my posts, you would know and understand that I run the house, I do everything it takes to keep together. Without me, she would have no desire to be in this house, it would be too much work and too many memories for her. 
I understand that relationships can take some work, but it shouldn't be that difficult. You should be able to be with someone who you are on the same page with. That you enjoy the same things, you do things together, you help one another because it is what you want to do. If you are with someone who has similar love languages as you instead of opposite, it is less work and comes a lot easier.


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## gbrad

3Xnocharm said:


> She deserves to know what it is that you dont like. How is she supposed to move forward and do better in her future relationships if she isnt made aware of what went wrong in this one? She deserves the truth because she is your wife...she committed herself and her future to you. You OWE it to her to let her know WHY.


If she finds someone who she is more compatable with and enjoys doing similar things with and a similar lifestyle, then she will be able to be more successful in her next relationship. I owe it to her not to her her more. The truth would just rip up her self esteem. 



3Xnocharm said:


> Here is a post you made a year ago:
> 
> 
> 
> *
> I have also seen in your past threads that you never want to discuss your feelings or intentions with your wife. I also saw that you were having thoughts about other women and even a "date" with an OSF. Not cool.
> 
> I think you owe it to her to let her know that she has not had a marriage for the last three years. You have been, and are being, a coward. You are not trying to avoid hurting her, you are hoping to avoid the aftermath. Man up.*


My feelings and intentions with my wife? I'm not sure what you mean by that. There was never a date with another woman, I spent time with a friend. I have addressed that issue before, even if I were 100% happy in my marriage I would expect that time with friends even of the opposite sex should be okay. 
She has had a marriage the past 3 years. I don't regret a minute of our marriage, we have both gotten a lot of good out of it. I don't see what I am doing as being a coward, I see it as trying to make the best of a bad situation. Yes I am trying to avoid the aftermath, but I also don't want to hurt her. I deal with the aftermath of emotional flareups from her all the time during our marriage, I want to limit the size of it for when the marriage ends, I think that is just smart. I have endured enough of it.


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## LIMBOLADY

gbrad said:


> She would leave because if anyone has claim to the house, it is my house. If you have read any amount of my posts, you would know and understand that I run the house, I do everything it takes to keep together. Without me, she would have no desire to be in this house, it would be too much work and too many memories for her.
> I understand that relationships can take some work, but it shouldn't be that difficult. You should be able to be with someone who you are on the same page with. That you enjoy the same things, you do things together, you help one another because it is what you want to do. If you are with someone who has similar love languages as you instead of opposite, it is less work and comes a lot easier.


I agree with what you are saying here but once upon a time you must have felt on the same page as her? We did too but it can't be fixed without both people wanting to.

Can I ask how long you have been married?


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## gbrad

LIMBOLADY said:


> I agree with what you are saying here but once upon a time you must have felt on the same page as her? We did too but it can't be fixed without both people wanting to.
> 
> Can I ask how long you have been married?


We were never really on the same page. Married between 8-10 years.


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## greenfern

I have such a hard time understanding the dynamic in your relationship. Is she so oblivious to the fact that you don't like spending time with her, are not attracted to her, etc etc? This surely can not be so much of a shock. Have you guys still have sex through the last 3 years of your exit strategy?

I really don't think after a year or two of being separated/divorced you will care so much if you guys are still 'friends'. It is unlikely you will be friends. You will both have new partners and it doesn't really sound like you have a basis for friendship so why bother? 

You sound selfless as if you care about her feelings and don't want to hurt her, but in my mind you are being very selfish by not allowing her to move on and be happy with someone who is truly happy with her.


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## gbrad

greenfern said:


> I have such a hard time understanding the dynamic in your relationship. Is she so oblivious to the fact that you don't like spending time with her, are not attracted to her, etc etc? This surely can not be so much of a shock. Have you guys still have sex through the last 3 years of your exit strategy?
> 
> I really don't think after a year or two of being separated/divorced you will care so much if you guys are still 'friends'. It is unlikely you will be friends. You will both have new partners and it doesn't really sound like you have a basis for friendship so why bother?
> 
> You sound selfless as if you care about her feelings and don't want to hurt her, but in my mind you are being very selfish by not allowing her to move on and be happy with someone who is truly happy with her.


It's not that she is oblivious, I just hide what I truly feel much of the time. Yes we have sex. Not that often, but we do have sex. She is an important part of my life, I may not expect to stay best of friends, but I have no desire to completely lose contact with her. I want to know how she is and how her life is going. I don't like the idea of losing complete contact with someone who was such an important part of your life.


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## just got it 55

gbrad said:


> So your suggestion is I hurt her more and make her hate me. That doesn't seem like a good situation for either of us. I don't understand why people would be calling for that.


You are just going to prolong her pain. She may hate you for a time .Or maybe hate is not the right emotion for what she will feel.

You seem more concerned with not wanted to be hated than her long term happiness.

But consider the TIME taken (stolen) from her life for being in a marriage with someone that does not love her.:scratchhead:

For that she will hate you forever


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## gbrad

just got it 55 said:


> You are just going to prolong her pain. She may hate you for a time .Or maybe hate is not the right emotion for what she will feel.
> 
> You seem more concerned with not wanted to be hated than her long term happiness.
> 
> But consider the TIME taken (stolen) from her life for being in a marriage with someone that does not love her.:scratchhead:
> 
> For that she will hate you forever


But everyone here talks as if telling her "hey lets get divorced" is something you can just throw out there. It is not an easy conversation and I think is one that has to be planned for, not just jumped right into. I will be sad when it is over as well, because I know that most likely there will not be any kind of relationship afterwards. The idea of her being completely out of my life, does make me sad. That is not something I want to just jump at with both feet without carefully looking first. We are getting closer to being there, just not all the way yet.


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## just got it 55

gbrad said:


> But everyone here talks as if telling her "hey lets get divorced" is something you can just throw out there. It is not an easy conversation and I think is one that has to be planned for, not just jumped right into. I will be sad when it is over as well, because I know that most likely there will not be any kind of relationship afterwards. The idea of her being completely out of my life, does make me sad. That is not something I want to just jump at with both feet without carefully looking first. We are getting closer to being there, just not all the way yet.


 8 – 23- 2012 08:48 PM Wanting a Divorce 
________________________________________
I have been contemplating divorce for a long time. At this point I am getting closer to my breaking point. I want to be able to support myself financially before I approach the topic of divorce with my wife, but everyday is getting harder and harder. I have been unhappy for a significant amount of time, but right now everyday is a struggle. I think that the closest time frame for being able to even bring up the idea of divorce is a year away, but sometimes I wonder how I will make it that far. I know its a process and eventually I will have to broach the topic with my wife, but right now, I just wish I didn't have to live with her at all. We live such separate lives already, that being with her just makes things more stressful. I know that I need to find a way to make the time between now and when it actually happens more bearable, I just don't know how. 

From your post ????

Make a GD Decision


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## karole

Why did you marry her in the first place? I feel extremely sorry for your wife. Just tell her you want a divorce so she can get on with her life and find someone who actually does love her. She deserves better.


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## Spinner

gbrad said:


> So your suggestion is I hurt her more and make her hate me. That doesn't seem like a good situation for either of us. I don't understand why people would be calling for that.


gbrad, I'm in the same situation. If you haven't figured it out yet most people aren't going to understand or be sympathetic. The truth is not always best. Sometimes a lie is kinder. I've been thinking a lot about how to have "the talk" and the best I can come up with is trying to highlight how a divorce would benefit both parties and why the marriage isn't fair to either.

That being said it might come to the point where she needs to vilify you for her own sanity and peace of mind. You need to be prepared for this possible outcome.

I'm not really sure what your history is, but I would strongly suggest individual counseling before you make this huge decision. It sounds like you need to learn how to express yourself.


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## just got it 55

Spinner said:


> gbrad, I'm in the same situation. If you haven't figured it out yet most people aren't going to understand or be sympathetic. The truth is not always best. Sometimes a lie is kinder. I've been thinking a lot about how to have "the talk" and the best I can come up with is trying to highlight how a divorce would benefit both parties and why the marriage isn't fair to either.
> 
> That being said it might come to the point where she needs to vilify you for her own sanity and peace of mind. You need to be prepared for this possible outcome.
> 
> I'm not really sure what your history is, but I would strongly suggest individual counseling before you make this huge decision. It sounds like you need to learn how to express yourself.


*The truth will always be *Thats what everybody deserves

The lie is only for you not for them


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## gbrad

karole said:


> Why did you marry her in the first place? I feel extremely sorry for your wife. Just tell her you want a divorce so she can get on with her life and find someone who actually does love her. She deserves better.


Because I don't deserve better?


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## gbrad

Spinner said:


> gbrad, I'm in the same situation. If you haven't figured it out yet most people aren't going to understand or be sympathetic. The truth is not always best. Sometimes a lie is kinder. I've been thinking a lot about how to have "the talk" and the best I can come up with is trying to highlight how a divorce would benefit both parties and why the marriage isn't fair to either.
> 
> That being said it might come to the point where she needs to vilify you for her own sanity and peace of mind. You need to be prepared for this possible outcome.
> 
> I'm not really sure what your history is, but I would strongly suggest individual counseling before you make this huge decision. It sounds like you need to learn how to express yourself.


Thank you for understanding.


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## just got it 55

gbrad said:


> Thank you for understanding.


gbrad listen I understand you but

What is the right thing to do here ?

If you tell someone that a loved one is dead, there is no other way to say it

Give this woman a chance to rebuild a life with someone else now age counts those years that you have been with her she can never get back

Do you understand ?


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## just got it 55

gbrad said:


> Because I don't deserve better?


Who is sitting in the victom chair here ?


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## gbrad

just got it 55 said:


> gbrad listen I understand you but
> 
> What is the right thing to do here ?
> 
> If you tell someone that a loved one is dead, there is no other way to say it
> 
> Give this woman a chance to rebuild a life with someone else now age counts those years that you have been with her she can never get back
> 
> Do you understand ?


I don't understand the loved one is dead analogy, I don't see how that correlates to this. The age comment I do understand, I am concerned about it for myself as well. 



just got it 55 said:


> Who is sitting in the victom chair here ?


When this conversation happens she will be the victim, but throughout the marriage, I am more the victim. If you want to get technical about it.


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## Spinner

just got it 55 said:


> *The truth will always be *Thats what everybody deserves
> 
> The lie is only for you not for them


You're living in a candy coated world of black and white morals, which sadly isn't the reality.

And if we all got what we "deserve" I think most of us would be in pretty bad shape.

If a person lied to make their own situation better, that would be for them. If a person lies to help someone else cope it's a kindness and one I would be grateful for were it necessary in my own life.

Ex: Say some ******** chain your kid's dog to the back of their truck and drag it to death for fun. Are you going to tell your kid that? No! You'd say "Honey, I'm sorry, but your dog died. It was just his time."

I know you'll find some way to take issue with how that example doesn't apply here, but the bottom line is nothing is ever "always".


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## just got it 55

Spinner said:


> You're living in a candy coated world of black and white morals, which sadly isn't the reality.
> 
> And if we all got what we "deserve" I think most of us would be in pretty bad shape.
> 
> If a person lied to make their own situation better, that would be for them. If a person lies to help someone else cope it's a kindness and one I would be grateful for were it necessary in my own life.
> 
> Ex: Say some ******** chain your kid's dog to the back of their truck and drag it to death for fun. Are you going to tell your kid that? No! You'd say "Honey, I'm sorry, but your dog died. It was just his time."
> 
> I know you'll find some way to take issue with how that example doesn't apply here, but the bottom line is nothing is ever "always".


As I see it the truth is Black & White

YOU want to feel better OK
Then Lie


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## PBear

Spinner said:


> You're living in a candy coated world of black and white morals, which sadly isn't the reality.
> 
> And if we all got what we "deserve" I think most of us would be in pretty bad shape.
> 
> If a person lied to make their own situation better, that would be for them. If a person lies to help someone else cope it's a kindness and one I would be grateful for were it necessary in my own life.
> 
> Ex: Say some ******** chain your kid's dog to the back of their truck and drag it to death for fun. Are you going to tell your kid that? No! You'd say "Honey, I'm sorry, but your dog died. It was just his time."
> 
> I know you'll find some way to take issue with how that example doesn't apply here, but the bottom line is nothing is ever "always".


While that may be true for the situation you give, we're not talking about explaining things to a child. It's another grownup. Someone who can understand what their role was in the failure of the relationship and learn from it, hopefully to not repeat. 

I'm also reminded of a Calvin & Hobbes cartoon. Calvin had lost Hobbes, and was really upset. One of his parents told him "This wouldn't have happened if you hadn't left Hobbes outside overnight", and I think Calvin's response was "Nothing is so bad that a little guilt can't make it worse". That may be true, but you know what? That little piece of knowledge might also help him to not do it again.

To the OP... I had to tell my wife (who didn't want the marriage to end) that I wanted out. I got us into counselling first. I was hoping to find out more of how I failed in our marriage. But if nothing else, it awoke her to how dire our situation was. I think it provided her some time to prepare for the idea of us separating. I also hoped it would give her a resource for support after, but that was not to be, as she ended up not liking our counsellor, and refused to go to the last session. 

We're still "friendly", even if we're not "friends", almost three years later. But that's more a function of having kids together that we still have to co-parent. We haven't done anything together without the kids since I moved out, and I can't think of any time we've phoned each other to talk; it's entirely through texts or talking when we hand over kids. 

Personally, I think hoping to remain friends is unrealistic. In particular, at some point you both will start seeing other people, and if you don't have kids, your new partner will likely object to much of a " friendship". 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wilderness

You entered into a lifelong marriage and you don't even want to _try_ and make things better? Why not?


----------



## just got it 55

Here it is Plain and simple truth

I am sorry I did my best to make this work but I am not happy and can sense that you are not either. You may feel that you are, but in time you will see that you are not. Or you will eventually pick up on my unhappiness which will affect your happiness. This is an emotional process that I been working through and have failed to get where I / we need to be to remain as a married couple.

It would be unfair for the both of us to continue as presently constituted, as we are both victims .Given the amount of time I have tried to resolve my feelings it is at this point hopeless for me to see a different outcome.

Thank You for the time we have spent together I wish only for your happiness. You will find it with someone you deserve and your love is not unrequited but real .

As we have no children this would be the time to make a clean break for us both to make a new start in life


----------



## greenfern

And gbrad, you can't live your life for someone else. Every single day you live this lie, you are losing a day of your life. I don't agree that you need IC to see if you want to make this decision you have been separating in your mind for 2 years or more.


----------



## wilderness

just got it 55 said:


> Here it is Plain and simple truth
> 
> I am sorry I did my best to make this work but I am not happy and can sense that you are not either. You may feel that you are, but in time you will see that you are not. Or you will eventually pick up on my unhappiness which will affect your happiness. This is an emotional process that I been working through and have failed to get where I / we need to be to remain as a married couple.
> 
> It would be unfair for the both of us to continue as presently constituted, as we are both victims .Given the amount of time I have tried to resolve my feelings it is at this point hopeless for me to see a different outcome.
> 
> Thank You for the time we have spent together I wish only for your happiness. You will find it with someone you deserve and your love is not unrequited but real .
> 
> As we have no children this would be the time to make a clean break for us both to make a new start in life


Or you could try this, it would be a lot more honest:

I promised my life to you, but now I am reneging on that promise. I don't care about the commitment that I made. Nor do I have enough respect for you, myself, my vows, or our respective families to even attempt to make this work. I would rather spit all over you and all over our marriage than give any effort. I also now admit that I have been totally dishonest to you about my feelings for years...I didn't even care about you enough to be honest. Now please be happy with my decision which I am unilaterally imposing upon you without your input.


----------



## just got it 55

That works too

But no matter how you say it ****It Will Hurt ****
And I expect I will hurt to say it
Or Not ?


----------



## PBear

wilderness said:


> Or you could try this, it would be a lot more honest:
> 
> I promised my life to you, but now I am reneging on that promise. I don't care about the commitment that I made. Nor do I have enough respect for you, myself, my vows, or our respective families to even attempt to make this work. I would rather spit all over you and all over our marriage than give any effort. I also now admit that I have been totally dishonest to you about my feelings for years...I didn't even care about you enough to be honest. Now please be happy with my decision which I am unilaterally imposing upon you without your input.


You know, you could try giving useful advice instead if assuming the OP is bailing without putting in a reasonable effort. Just because he didn't itemize everything he's ever tried for your reading enjoyment doesn't mean he hasn't tried, and that this isn't a horribly painful decision for him. Trying to inflict more pain on him is rather cruel, I'd say. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## karole

wilderness said:


> Or you could try this, it would be a lot more honest:
> 
> I promised my life to you, but now I am reneging on that promise. I don't care about the commitment that I made. Nor do I have enough respect for you, myself, my vows, or our respective families to even attempt to make this work. I would rather spit all over you and all over our marriage than give any effort. I also now admit that I have been totally dishonest to you about my feelings for years...I didn't even care about you enough to be honest. Now please be happy with my decision which I am unilaterally imposing upon you without your input.


I would add at the end: "I hope we can still be friends."


----------



## wilderness

PBear said:


> You know, you could try giving useful advice instead if assuming the OP is bailing without putting in a reasonable effort. Just because he didn't itemize everything he's ever tried for your reading enjoyment doesn't mean he hasn't tried, and that this isn't a horribly painful decision for him. Trying to inflict more pain on him is rather cruel, I'd say.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He is not even willing to_ try_.
Now try and defend that.


----------



## PBear

wilderness said:


> He is not even willing to_ try_.
> Now try and defend that.


I'd defend it by saying I haven't walked a mile in his shoes or lived his life for the last however many years, so I'm in no position to judge whether he's tried or not. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wilderness

PBear said:


> I'd defend it by saying I haven't walked a mile in his shoes or lived his life for the last however many years, so I'm in no position to judge whether he's tried or not.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Until death do us part.
For better or for worse.


----------



## PBear

wilderness said:


> Until death do us part.
> For better or for worse.


If you want to stay in a sexless, loveless marriage, or stay married to a serial cheater or abuser, knock yourself out. While I made wedding vows, I'm not going to stick around trying to make someone love me if they're not interested in making things work. That's not loyalty, that's stupidity. 

Again, though... Feel free to live your life the way you like. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wilderness

PBear said:


> If you want to stay in a sexless, loveless marriage, or stay married to a serial cheater or abuser, knock yourself out. While I made wedding vows, I'm not going to stick around trying to make someone love me if they're not interested in making things work. That's not loyalty, that's stupidity.
> 
> Again, though... Feel free to live your life the way you like.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


\\

Strawman argument. Never did OP say that his marriage included abuse or serial cheating.
Nice try, though.


----------



## PBear

wilderness said:


> \\
> 
> Strawman argument. Never did OP say that his marriage included abuse or serial cheating.
> Nice try, though.


No, but he has commented repeatedly on the loveless part. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wilderness

She wants to stay married, he doesn't. That sounds to me like it's his problem to solve. Yet he has 0 interest in solving it. Zero interest in even_ trying _to solve it.

I ask you, what would he have to lose by_ trying?_
(read: nothing)

I must conclude that he simply doesn't care about his commitment, his vows, his word, his marriage, himself, his wife, his family, his wife's family, or anyone else.


----------



## Pepper123

If it were me, I would want to know the truth. I think lying is one of the most cowardly things one human can do to another. It disables the person from being able to affectively heal, as it takes away the option to feel authentically.

After 10 yrs, I guarantee you that you are not as convincing as you think. It is likely the elephant in the room, and you are both afraid to admit that your relationship is dead.

Hearing, "it isn't you, it is me..." Will not make it easier. 

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it will always be a pig.


----------



## gbrad

just got it 55 said:


> As I see it the truth is Black & White
> 
> YOU want to feel better OK
> Then Lie


Nothing in life is really black and white. If you want to look at it that way, fine, but I and many people see life as circumstantial.


----------



## gbrad

just got it 55 said:


> Here it is Plain and simple truth
> 
> I am sorry I did my best to make this work but I am not happy and can sense that you are not either. You may feel that you are, but in time you will see that you are not. Or you will eventually pick up on my unhappiness which will affect your happiness. This is an emotional process that I been working through and have failed to get where I / we need to be to remain as a married couple.
> 
> It would be unfair for the both of us to continue as presently constituted, as we are both victims .Given the amount of time I have tried to resolve my feelings it is at this point hopeless for me to see a different outcome.
> 
> Thank You for the time we have spent together I wish only for your happiness. You will find it with someone you deserve and your love is not unrequited but real .
> 
> As we have no children this would be the time to make a clean break for us both to make a new start in life


That seems pretty close, but with a little sugar coating to go with. It needs to not come off as cold.


----------



## gbrad

wilderness said:


> Or you could try this, it would be a lot more honest:
> 
> I promised my life to you, but now I am reneging on that promise. I don't care about the commitment that I made. Nor do I have enough respect for you, myself, my vows, or our respective families to even attempt to make this work. I would rather spit all over you and all over our marriage than give any effort. I also now admit that I have been totally dishonest to you about my feelings for years...I didn't even care about you enough to be honest. Now please be happy with my decision which I am unilaterally imposing upon you without your input.


Wow, I would hope you would never talk to someone that way, that is just rude. And it isn't true for my situation. 



wilderness said:


> He is not even willing to_ try_.
> Now try and defend that.


I have been trying for years. I wanted this marriage to work, I had hoped it would work, but it didn't. Things changed, but only ever for the worse, not better.



wilderness said:


> She wants to stay married, he doesn't. That sounds to me like it's his problem to solve. Yet he has 0 interest in solving it. Zero interest in even_ trying _to solve it.
> 
> I ask you, what would he have to lose by_ trying?_
> (read: nothing)
> 
> I must conclude that he simply doesn't care about his commitment, his vows, his word, his marriage, himself, his wife, his family, his wife's family, or anyone else.


Again, its not that I didn't try, it is just that I am tired of trying. Your conclusion about who I do and don't care about, couldn't be farther from the truth.


----------



## Spinner

wilderness said:


> Until death do us part.
> For better or for worse.


Why so judgey and butthurt?


----------



## wilderness

gbrad said:


> Wow, I would hope you would never talk to someone that way, that is just rude. And it isn't true for my situation.
> 
> 
> 
> I have been trying for years. I wanted this marriage to work, I had hoped it would work, but it didn't. Things changed, but only ever for the worse, not better.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, its not that I didn't try, it is just that I am tired of trying. Your conclusion about who I do and don't care about, couldn't be farther from the truth.


But have you engaged your wife in the _trying_ part? Does she know you've been unhappy for years, or has it been a secret?


----------



## gbrad

wilderness said:


> But have you engaged your wife in the _trying_ part? Does she know you've been unhappy for years, or has it been a secret?


We have had many discussions when it comes to trying to improve our relationship over the years.


----------



## wilderness

gbrad said:


> We have had many discussions when it comes to trying to improve our relationship over the years.


Well, clearly you haven't told you were having a divorce. If that were the case you wouldn't have started this thread. Why not give it one more try after having this discussion? At that point your wife will know the stakes, and like I said, you would have absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain.


----------



## gbrad

wilderness said:


> Well, clearly you haven't told you were having a divorce. If that were the case you wouldn't have started this thread. Why not give it one more try after having this discussion? At that point your wife will know the stakes, and like I said, you would have absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain.


No I have never used the divorce word, I have never said I am unhappy in this marriage. Because up until recently my goal in the discussions was always to keep the peace and make things better.


----------



## wilderness

gbrad said:


> No I have never used the divorce word, I have never said I am unhappy in this marriage. Because up until recently my goal in the discussions was always to keep the peace and make things better.


So like I said, you haven't engaged your wife in the discussion. At least not with any degree of honesty.
Why not at least _try_ to make your marriage work after telling her how unhappy you are? What do you have to lose?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

wilderness said:


> So like I said, you haven't engaged your wife in the discussion. At least not with any degree of honesty.
> Why not at least _try_ to make your marriage work after telling her how unhappy you are? What do you have to lose?


If you read his older threads, you will see that this is how he works, he has chosen not to be up front and have honest, heart to heart discussions with his wife. She is going to be blindsided that he wants a divorce, she has no idea he has been leaving in his mind for three years. I think its pretty crappy, myself. And clearly we here are not having any influence. I feel terrible for her.


----------



## Jntrs

cant judge you, but clearly there's lack of communication, either from you or her, i too was at that point also, and i never mentioned anything, yet years later she gave me the "i want space" line, hit me hard, but i guess we all go through it, cant say we will get back together, you have to question yourself, and maybe consider some time apart, and maybe that would actually help you re-evaluate your thoughts or feelings, but you have to be open and honest with her, i don't think there is any easy way out, and trying to not hurt her will not work, she will hurt no matter what

some here will judge you, mainly because we are on the other side of the fence and mostly everybody would want to work things out

good luck, and hope for the best, but the reality of it, be ready for her to try the craziest things if she really loves you like crazy


----------



## SadSamIAm

I didn't like Wilderness' approach, but I agree with what she/he is saying.

I don't think many marriages end before a bunch of discussions that include something like, "If XXXX doesn't happen, then we should start talking about a separation." Or "I am really unhappy about XXXX and YYYY and it is getting to the point where I am thinking about leaving this marriage." Or "We need to do XXX and YYY or this marriage is going to fall apart".

I think you could have made your marriage better (or end sooner) if you had been honest about the depth of your feelings. She might have known everything wasn't great for you, but it sounds like she has no idea you are as unhappy as you are telling us.


----------



## CEL

Okay so the guy wants to leave his marriage because he is unhappy. Seems pretty simple to me. He is looking for advice on how to break it to her gently as he has already made the decision to leave. Which is in fact his decision to make. We don't know the in's and out's of his marriage only what he has told us. And it does not matter either.

1. To tell someone to uphold their vows is condescending I don't think he came to this decision lightly. And even if he has it is his honor not yours. To comment on another persons honor you had better be damn sure you are without issue. Every man has to face himself in the mirror.

2. He can tell his wife anything. He can deliver ultimatums and list what he wants she might do them or she might not. Either way there is no guarantee that his feelings would change. He may have just fallen out of love with her. Hell for all we know he may be wanting to get a sex change.

3. Why should he stay? I mean this is just a fact why should he? If he is unhappy why should he give it another chance it is his life. Yeah it could get better it could get worse we don't know. As for what he has to lose well simple he has the most precious thing we have TIME.

4. You are berating him for not telling her that he should of been informing her all this time of how unhappy he is well why? Even if he had you don't know things would be better. They could of just gotten worse. Most marriages dissolve for a simple reason. Not lack of work. Not cheating. They dissolve because as painful as it is to comprehend people fall out of love with their spouse. And there is no sure way to get that back.


If it is one thing I have seen over and over on this forum it is that fighting for a marriage usually does not matter. Oh a few make it work but they are in the minority.


----------



## gbrad

I appreciate the responses, and I know that few seem to understand where I am coming from. I do appreciate those who are able to still try and give good advice for what I am asking. I do feel bad for my wife, but I feel bad for me as well. We are both in this, we both have done and not done things that have contributed to the demise of this relationship. She most likely does recognize and know more than she lets on about my feelings and where I am at in this marriage. Chances are it wont be a complete shock, Neither person caused this marriage to fail, both did things that hurt it. But the reality is, we just don't match up well. I know, time is an issue, why take so long, why think about this for multiple years? Because ultimately, I didn't want it to end this way, this isn't the way I wanted my life to go. I really did in the beginning hope that it would be happily ever after. But over time I realized that all of the things that I was either willing to live with or hoped would change to make that happen, it was just too much. Over time those thigns build up more and more and it becomes too much. Nobody goes into a marriage thinking, "I hope this ends in divorce". So when you get to the point that that is what you are thinking, it is scary as hell. I have finally come to the point where I feel I am actually ready to be seperated from her and start new. Now I just have to be ready to have that conversation and go through with it, and those are two separate things.


----------



## clipclop2

Let's be perfectly clear: lying to her is 100% for your benefit. You don't want to be more of a bad guy than you will already be for leaving. 

If you are leaving for valid reasons that you can defend not sharing them with her leaves her in the dark. She can't benefit from your honest feedback in future relationships if you withhold it. She won't be able to make sense of your decision. People like things to make sense.

The whole "it shouldn't be this hard" belief comes out of some unrealistic beliefs. Marriage isn't there to make you happy. It is there to make you a better person. It is a vehicle for growth.

I can't help but wonder if she never had a prayer with you in the first place. Dishonesty now most likely indicates a lot of dishonesty throughout your marriage. 

I see you as selfish. You feel sorry for yourself? Not an attractive quality.

Those trite words - "you deserve better" are insulting. Who are you to decide what is best for her? You are doing this for you.

"I hope we can remain friends" is another good one. 

If you aren't friends within the marriage there is no chance of it occurring after divorce. You will be off dating the women you have wanted to date all along while she is going through a world of hurt. Since you don't have the guts to be honest with her now, I doubt you will be much of a friend to her while she suffers. To do that you'd have to be willing to hear how much you have hurt her. You don't seem up for that. 

I predict problems in your future relationships because of your lack of integrity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gbrad

ClipClop, reading your post gives me the impression you see everything as black and white. Nothing is that simple, there are so many complexities to situations. So many people on here have jumped on my wifes side of things for the primary reason that I have said I am not completely honest with her. It seems as if nothing else I say even matters, it doesn't matter what she does or doesn't do, I'm the bad guy because of that. I'm sorry that I think lying to prevent someone from getting hurt is a good thing. I would want that for me. Even with little things; it drives me nuts that she will tell me things that she doesn't have to, that she knows will upset or irritate me. If she didn't tell me I wouldn't know and then I wouldn't be irritated by it.


----------



## wilderness

CEL said:


> Okay so the guy wants to leave his marriage because he is unhappy. Seems pretty simple to me. He is looking for advice on how to break it to her gently as he has already made the decision to leave. Which is in fact his decision to make. We don't know the in's and out's of his marriage only what he has told us. And it does not matter either.
> 
> 1. To tell someone to uphold their vows is condescending I don't think he came to this decision lightly. And even if he has it is his honor not yours. To comment on another persons honor you had better be damn sure you are without issue. Every man has to face himself in the mirror.
> 
> 2. He can tell his wife anything. He can deliver ultimatums and list what he wants she might do them or she might not. Either way there is no guarantee that his feelings would change. He may have just fallen out of love with her. Hell for all we know he may be wanting to get a sex change.
> 
> 3. Why should he stay? I mean this is just a fact why should he? If he is unhappy why should he give it another chance it is his life. Yeah it could get better it could get worse we don't know. As for what he has to lose well simple he has the most precious thing we have TIME.
> 
> 4. You are berating him for not telling her that he should of been informing her all this time of how unhappy he is well why? Even if he had you don't know things would be better. They could of just gotten worse. Most marriages dissolve for a simple reason. Not lack of work. Not cheating. They dissolve because as painful as it is to comprehend people fall out of love with their spouse. And there is no sure way to get that back.
> 
> 
> If it is one thing I have seen over and over on this forum it is that fighting for a marriage usually does not matter. Oh a few make it work but they are in the minority.


Life is not a romance novel. If being 'in love' is the barometer by which to conclude whether or not to stay married, just about every marriage fails at some point. 

You or anyone else can try and dilute or rationalize the facts away all you want...that doesn't change that factually, marriage is a lifelong commitment. To walk away from it based on abstraction is to spit in the face of the person you are walking away from.


----------



## gbrad

wilderness said:


> Life is not a romance novel. If being 'in love' is the barometer by which to conclude whether or not to stay married, just about every marriage fails at some point.
> 
> You or anyone else can try and dilute or rationalize the facts away all you want...that doesn't change that factually, marriage is a lifelong commitment. To walk away from it based on abstraction is to spit in the face of the person you are walking away from.


You speak as if this is a decision that was made on a whim. There is a big difference between getting in an argument over a one time event and saying "this is too hard" and having years of things build up that don't change. If two people are not happy, and have tried to adjust things and change things, but it hasn't worked. Then those two people have every right to decide to try and find happiness somewhere else. I can also honestly say, even though I am wanting to go through with divorce now, if I could go back to the beginning, I would still marry her at that time.


----------



## CEL

Gotta break this up.




clipclop2 said:


> Let's be perfectly clear: lying to her is 100% for your benefit. You don't want to be more of a bad guy than you will already be for leaving.


You don't know he is lying. So far he just does not want to get into the nitty gritty. You are guessing and there is always tons of ways to see something. 



clipclop2 said:


> If you are leaving for valid reasons that you can defend not sharing them with her leaves her in the dark. She can't benefit from your honest feedback in future relationships if you withhold it. She won't be able to make sense of your decision. People like things to make sense.


Why does he need to defend anything to anyone? First part of therapy is to understand you don't have to defend the things in your life you do for yourself. His choice not hers. He does not need to defend it to anyone including her. You have no idea if the reasons he wants to leave would actually benefit her. They may just no longer be compatible. What if he just does not see a future with her as in they have different life expectations. Or maybe he wants to date guys? Expecting someone to change for you is the height of meanness. Take people as they are don't try to change them. 



clipclop2 said:


> The whole "it shouldn't be this hard" belief comes out of some unrealistic beliefs. Marriage isn't there to make you happy. It is there to make you a better person. It is a vehicle for growth.


LOL really? Marriage is not supposed to make you happy? Why do we do it then? A vehicle for growth with no happiness in it. LOL.



clipclop2 said:


> I can't help but wonder if she never had a prayer with you in the first place. Dishonesty now most likely indicates a lot of dishonesty throughout your marriage.


You don't know this. He may have really loved her and thought it would be good then it just was not. The problem is we just do not know. He does not want to hurt her and I can understand that. Going through life doing as little damage to others is an admirable quality.



clipclop2 said:


> I see you as selfish. You feel sorry for yourself? Not an attractive quality.


LOL making decisions on your own life is selfish? Oh then he should just fall on the sword and be unhappy then he could be martyr. He could be miserable and honorable in your eyes or try to be happy and selfish. When I go to dinner I order what I want not what my partner wants. Same thing when going out I date those I wish to date. I stay with those I wish to stay with. As long as I face the consequences of my decisions then it is okay. It is not selfish to decide to leave someone. Why would he care of you found him attractive? And just so you know he is unhappy in his life it seems so feeling bad that you are in a crap situation is normal.



clipclop2 said:


> Those trite words - "you deserve better" are insulting. Who are you to decide what is best for her? You are doing this for you.
> 
> "I hope we can remain friends" is another good one.


Ummm you realize that your question could be turned around on you. Who are you to decide what is best for him? You are pushing him to go back on his own decision based on a few paragraphs of posts. Oh and many divorced people do remain friends my mom and dad remained best friends till he died. This is up to them he can be honest with what he wants then it is up to her to decide if she is okay with that some are some are not.



clipclop2 said:


> If you aren't friends within the marriage there is no chance of it occurring after divorce. You will be off dating the women you have wanted to date all along while she is going through a world of hurt. Since you don't have the guts to be honest with her now, I doubt you will be much of a friend to her while she suffers. To do that you'd have to be willing to hear how much you have hurt her. You don't seem up for that.
> 
> I predict problems in your future relationships because of your lack of integrity.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Again you are guessing and predicting what might happen. If he has feelings for another then he should leave the marriage as it shows that he needs to do the right thing. He has two choices leave the marriage or break it off and try on the marriage. Whatever he decides he will have to decide on what he thinks is going to make him happy. Limbo world is not good for anyone. And you still don't know he will not be there for her. You are guessing just because he has not romantic feelings does not mean he would abandon her.


----------



## CEL

Gotta break this one up as well.



wilderness said:


> Life is not a romance novel. If being 'in love' is the barometer by which to conclude whether or not to stay married, just about every marriage fails at some point.


Yep you go through tough times you got that part right. But marriage is about love in one way or another you would not get married without love. You would not go through the tough times if you did not love them as a friend. It is also about hope. Hope that things will get better. 



wilderness said:


> You or anyone else can try and dilute or rationalize the facts away all you want...that doesn't change that factually, marriage is a lifelong commitment. To walk away from it based on abstraction is to spit in the face of the person you are walking away from.


Marriage is not a life long commitment
In 2002 (latest survey data as of 2012),[13] 29% of first marriages among women aged 15–44 were disrupted (ended in separation, divorce or annulment) within 10 years.[14] Beyond the 10-year window, population survey data is lacking, but forecasts and estimates provide some understanding. It is commonly claimed that half of all marriages in the United States eventually end in divorce, an estimate possibly based on the fact that in any given year, the number of marriages is about twice the number of divorces.[15] Using 1995 data, National Survey of Family Growth forecast in 2002 a 43% chance that first marriages among women aged 15–44 would be disrupted within 15 years.[13] More recently, having spoken with academics and National Survey of Family Growth representatives, PolitiFact.com estimated in 2012 that the lifelong probability of a marriage ending in divorce is 40%–50%.[16]

The fact is a marriage lasts as long as the couple decide to make it last. It ends when either party want it to end. It is a contract of convenience made to make people feel safe and that they will have someone for the rest of their lives. The hard fact is that when people are unhappy they leave. And the harder fact is that they have all the right and choice to do so. Otherwise a wife beater could beat his wife without having to worry. Or in this case the women could just decide to not do anything for this man with no repercussions. People have the right to be happy. People have the right to leave people who they think will not make them happy. In your world people could be treated as badly as the spouse wanted for their whole life. A life sentence for making a bad choice in spouse.


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## wilderness

gbrad said:


> You speak as if this is a decision that was made on a whim. There is a big difference between getting in an argument over a one time event and saying "this is too hard" and having years of things build up that don't change. If two people are not happy, and have tried to adjust things and change things, but it hasn't worked. Then those two people have every right to decide to try and find happiness somewhere else. I can also honestly say, even though I am wanting to go through with divorce now, if I could go back to the beginning, I would still marry her at that time.


Your wife doesn't even know that you are unhappy. As such I believe you are simply giving lipservice to 'trying'. And people do not have the right to be happy at the expense of other people. If it makes me happy to rob you, do I have the right to do it?


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## wilderness

CEL said:


> Gotta break this one up as well.
> Marriage is not a life long commitment
> In 2002 (latest survey data as of 2012),[13] 29% of first marriages among women aged 15–44 were disrupted (ended in separation, divorce or annulment) within 10 years.[14] Beyond the 10-year window, population survey data is lacking, but forecasts and estimates provide some understanding. It is commonly claimed that half of all marriages in the United States eventually end in divorce, an estimate possibly based on the fact that in any given year, the number of marriages is about twice the number of divorces.[15] Using 1995 data, National Survey of Family Growth forecast in 2002 a 43% chance that first marriages among women aged 15–44 would be disrupted within 15 years.[13] More recently, having spoken with academics and National Survey of Family Growth representatives, PolitiFact.com estimated in 2012 that the lifelong probability of a marriage ending in divorce is 40%–50%.[16]
> 
> The fact is a marriage lasts as long as the couple decide to make it last. It ends when either party want it to end. It is a contract of convenience made to make people feel safe and that they will have someone for the rest of their lives. The hard fact is that when people are unhappy they leave. And the harder fact is that they have all the right and choice to do so. Otherwise a wife beater could beat his wife without having to worry. Or in this case the women could just decide to not do anything for this man with no repercussions. People have the right to be happy. People have the right to leave people who they think will not make them happy. In your world people could be treated as badly as the spouse wanted for their whole life. A life sentence for making a bad choice in spouse.


Of course marriage is a lifelong commitment. 'Until death do us part'. Are you really going to claim this isn't one of the vows of marriage. And of course people don't have the right to break the marriage contract, legally, morally, or otherwise.


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## 3Xnocharm

wilderness said:


> Of course marriage is a lifelong commitment. 'Until death do us part'. Are you really going to claim this isn't one of the vows of marriage. And of course people don't have the right to break the marriage contract, legally, morally, or otherwise.


While I dont agree with his methods, I would never ever condemn someone who wants out of an unhappy situation. Sorry, but this is entirely too judgmental!


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## CEL

wilderness said:


> Of course marriage is a lifelong commitment. 'Until death do us part'. Are you really going to claim this isn't one of the vows of marriage. And of course people don't have the right to break the marriage contract, legally, morally, or otherwise.


Sure I can claim that as many times it is not. LOL. You ever been to a pagan wedding? Marriage is a promise and like many promises it can be broken. You make the promise with all the best of intentions but well life happens. Then you have to decide what the next step is.


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## gbrad

wilderness said:


> Your wife doesn't even know that you are unhappy. As such I believe you are simply giving lipservice to 'trying'. And people do not have the right to be happy at the expense of other people. If it makes me happy to rob you, do I have the right to do it?


Actually, I believe she knows I am unhappy, I just don't think she knows why.


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## Spinner

gbrad said:


> Actually, I believe she knows I am unhappy, I just don't think she knows why.


I can't believe you've been checked out for so long without even trying to talk it out first. You need to put your cards on the table.


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## gbrad

Almost did it this weekend, things got complicated, couldn't go through with it. I was ready to put the cards on the table, but it became a bad time. I know there is not good time, but I don't want to do it at a bad time. And the way things have been going lately, I don't think she is going to be completely shocked. She seems unhappy too and I can tell she is questioning things.


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## LIMBOLADY

gbrad said:


> Almost did it this weekend, things got complicated, couldn't go through with it. I was ready to put the cards on the table, but it became a bad time. I know there is not good time, but I don't want to do it at a bad time. And the way things have been going lately, I don't think she is going to be completely shocked. She seems unhappy too and I can tell she is questioning things.


You should really try and get it over with. This is just the first part. The separation and divorce stuff can take months and months.


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## IndecisionIsTorture

gbrad said:


> Almost did it this weekend, things got complicated, couldn't go through with it. I was ready to put the cards on the table, but it became a bad time. I know there is not good time, but I don't want to do it at a bad time. And the way things have been going lately, I don't think she is going to be completely shocked. She seems unhappy too and I can tell she is questioning things.


Sometimes the anticipation of a difficult discussion is worse than the actual discussion.

Rip the Band-Aid off. You're probably more ready than you think.


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## gbrad

LIMBOLADY said:


> You should really try and get it over with. This is just the first part. The separation and divorce stuff can take months and months.





IndecisionIsTorture said:


> Sometimes the anticipation of a difficult discussion is worse than the actual discussion.
> 
> Rip the Band-Aid off. You're probably more ready than you think.


I know I am ready, its just a matter of really bad timing. As I said, no good timing, I just don't want other life circumstances to make it really bad timing.


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## gbrad

It looks like things are going to last a little longer. I was ready, but now other circumstances would make the current timing even worse. Will most likely have to wait a couple more months.


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## greenfern

gbrad said:


> It looks like things are going to last a little longer. I was ready, but now other circumstances would make the current timing even worse. Will most likely have to wait a couple more months.


I feel sorry for you gbrad. You have this fantasy of being with a "hot woman" and nothing will do until you get that.

My bf left his wife for the same reason. He had always wanted to be with someone that was truly hot, that he physically lusted after. And we met, and he does. But he isn't happier overall because it it's not enough. It's like a kid, who sees these great toys on commercials and thinks if I just had that I would be happy. But they never are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gbrad

greenfern said:


> I feel sorry for you gbrad. You have this fantasy of being with a "hot woman" and nothing will do until you get that.
> 
> My bf left his wife for the same reason. He had always wanted to be with someone that was truly hot, that he physically lusted after. And we met, and he does. But he isn't happier overall because it it's not enough. It's like a kid, who sees these great toys on commercials and thinks if I just had that I would be happy. But they never are.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are wrong if you think that is what this whole thing is about, looks. Do I want to be physically attracted to the person I am with? Of course.  If that were the only issue in my marriage, I wouldn't even be considering divorce.


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## greenfern

gbrad said:


> You are wrong if you think that is what this whole thing is about, looks. Do I want to be physically attracted to the person I am with? Of course. If that were the only issue in my marriage, I wouldn't even be considering divorce.


Ok I apologize if I got it wrong. Jut seemed like through your own threads and comments on other threads, you really are after a higher sex rank. The reason it stands out for me is that I heard my bf talk about it for ages, that he went 10 years in a marriage with someone lower se rank and was just dying the whole time to really be hot for the person he is with.

I was after chemistry too...I get it. It's just that happiness or fulfillment needs to come from within. I want to be with someone that makes my toes tingle. But my happiness is up to me. (Still learning this lesson!!)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## muskrat

gbrad, you need to put on your big boy pants and be honest with her. While you have spent the last 3 years planning your exit, she has been planning your future. There is no nice way to do this. It is like pulling off a band aid!!! The longer you drag it out the more you WILL hurt her. If you are leaving, THEN LEAVE!!
You are behaving like a coward. A very selfish coward. You WILL hurt your wife. If you think you can lie to her and lessen her pain, you are wrong!
You haven't really tried, so you do not respect the vows you made. If you truly tried, your wife would already know how unhappy you are.
It is very clear after reading your posts that you are a very selfish man.


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## gbrad

greenfern said:


> Ok I apologize if I got it wrong. Jut seemed like through your own threads and comments on other threads, you really are after a higher sex rank. The reason it stands out for me is that I heard my bf talk about it for ages, that he went 10 years in a marriage with someone lower se rank and was just dying the whole time to really be hot for the person he is with.
> 
> I was after chemistry too...I get it. It's just that happiness or fulfillment needs to come from within. I want to be with someone that makes my toes tingle. But my happiness is up to me. (Still learning this lesson!!)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The ideal situation is to get both. Someone you are attracted to and someone you get a long really well with and connect with. Early on in the marriage we had a connection. But as the years have gone on, we don't have that anymore. We enjoy different things in our day to day lives and it makes it very difficult. 
If given the opportunity again, I would try to get it all, I think each person deserves that.


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## gbrad

muskrat said:


> gbrad, you need to put on your big boy pants and be honest with her. While you have spent the last 3 years planning your exit, she has been planning your future. There is no nice way to do this. It is like pulling off a band aid!!! The longer you drag it out the more you WILL hurt her. If you are leaving, THEN LEAVE!!
> You are behaving like a coward. A very selfish coward. You WILL hurt your wife. If you think you can lie to her and lessen her pain, you are wrong!
> You haven't really tried, so you do not respect the vows you made. If you truly tried, your wife would already know how unhappy you are.
> It is very clear after reading your posts that you are a very selfish man.


I appreciate how you judge me and after examination determine that this is all my fault and I am the bad guy here. If I were as selfish as you say, I wouldn't be concerned with hurting her. I would just do it and move on. Instead, I am considering her feelings and everything currently going on in our lives. Divorce will be hard enough on its own.


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## muskrat

You are missing my point. By prolonging this for as long as you have you are only going to hurt her more. I get that there may be other circumstances at the moment that would cause you to wait a short time. But what about the last 3 years? This stuff really is like a band aid. Pulling it off is going to hurt, period. Doing it slowly just drags the pain out.

And yes it is your fault. You have felt this way for years and never bothered to really share your feelings with your wife. Who knows things could be totally different and you may have had a wonderful marriage if you would have expressed how unhappy you were and why you felt that way.

All this makes me wonder, are you really worried about her? I have a feeling you are really worried about being the "bad" guy and looking bad to others. It appears you want to walk away with no guilt. Your actions in the past, present and future, have a direct and profound affect on your wife's life. You have been and are being unfair to her.


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## gbrad

muskrat said:


> You are missing my point. By prolonging this for as long as you have you are only going to hurt her more. I get that there may be other circumstances at the moment that would cause you to wait a short time. But what about the last 3 years? This stuff really is like a band aid. Pulling it off is going to hurt, period. Doing it slowly just drags the pain out.
> 
> And yes it is your fault. You have felt this way for years and never bothered to really share your feelings with your wife. Who knows things could be totally different and you may have had a wonderful marriage if you would have expressed how unhappy you were and why you felt that way.
> 
> All this makes me wonder, are you really worried about her? I have a feeling you are really worried about being the "bad" guy and looking bad to others. It appears you want to walk away with no guilt. Your actions in the past, present and future, have a direct and profound affect on your wife's life. You have been and are being unfair to her.


It is not like i did nothing over the past 3 years (not sure why you use that number, but lets go with it). We have had conversations and there have been attempts made to make things better and improve our relationship. You make it seem like I just sat around waiting for this time to come, that's just not the case. We both made attempts to improve things, it just never really improved. With all we have done over the years, nothing much has really changed. It would take one or both of us to change a large amount of how we live or what we want. At this point it is not likely that either one of us is going to change that much. And bringing up the last 3 years to make it seem like I have waited too long, I was never ready during those past 3 years for this. While I had thought about it, I wasn't ready. It wasn't until just recently that I first felt ready. 
You are right that I don't want to be the bad guy, why would I want to be. I want to make the transition as smooth as possible for both of us. My actions also have a profound effect on my life.


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## muskrat

You are correct, this will also have a profound effect on your life also. The big difference is you are choosing this path. Your wife is being forced against her will. Besides in your initial post you were asking how to avoid hurting her.
There is no nice way about this. I do not know you, so I do not know if you are a good or bad guy. However you are the one choosing to ignore your wedding vows. You are the one that is planning an exit without your spouses knowledge. You are the one that has decided there is nothing that could be done to make your marriage better. So if one of you must be the "bad" guy, well that would be you. 

I will leave this topic on this note.
A perfect marriage is two imperfect people who never gave up on each other.


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## gbrad

muskrat said:


> You are correct, this will also have a profound effect on your life also. The big difference is you are choosing this path. Your wife is being forced against her will. Besides in your initial post you were asking how to avoid hurting her.
> There is no nice way about this. I do not know you, so I do not know if you are a good or bad guy. However you are the one choosing to ignore your wedding vows. You are the one that is planning an exit without your spouses knowledge. You are the one that has decided there is nothing that could be done to make your marriage better. So if one of you must be the "bad" guy, well that would be you.
> 
> I will leave this topic on this note.
> A perfect marriage is two imperfect people who never gave up on each other.


I understand much of what you are saying, but I also want to note that I am not going to force this on her against her will.


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## wilderness

gbrad said:


> I understand much of what you are saying, but I also want to note that I am not going to force this on her against her will.


To clarify- if she doesn't want a divorce, are you going to file anyway? If so, you most certainly are planning to force this on her against her will. That makes you the bad guy, in my opinion.


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## gbrad

wilderness said:


> To clarify- if she doesn't want a divorce, are you going to file anyway? If so, you most certainly are planning to force this on her against her will. That makes you the bad guy, in my opinion.


I'm planning on her wanting to divorce once we talk about it. 
This morning sucks. Woke up from a dream about the first person I ever fell in love with. At this point in life it is not her that I want, but someone like her and it just kills me inside that I don't have that.


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## LongWalk

Did you tell her?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## wilderness

gbrad said:


> I'm planning on her wanting to divorce once we talk about it.
> This morning sucks. Woke up from a dream about the first person I ever fell in love with. At this point in life it is not her that I want, but someone like her and it just kills me inside that I don't have that.


Walk away spouses always seem to have this martyr complex. Trying to paint staying with their spouses as some horrible torture that they have to endure.

I call BS on your latest post. It doesn't '*kill you inside*' to be married to your spouse. You are grossly exaggerating your plight to make yourself appear the victim. That's not right, hoss.


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## gbrad

wilderness said:


> Walk away spouses always seem to have this martyr complex. Trying to paint staying with their spouses as some horrible torture that they have to endure.
> 
> I call BS on your latest post. It doesn't '*kill you inside*' to be married to your spouse. You are grossly exaggerating your plight to make yourself appear the victim. That's not right, hoss.


What? I don't want to be a martyr, I just don't want to be the bad guy. Saying it kills me was obviously an exaggeration of words, but its meaning should convey. I stood there wanting to cry in the shower, but forcing myself to hold back the tears, because I know I wont be happy in this marriage and I know I am missing out on life staying in it. I am not trying to say I am the victim, I know the truth is in the end we are both victims because neither of us is getting what we want. I am not and she is not, we both know that. It is just as much her responsibility as it is mine to address the issues.


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## wilderness

gbrad said:


> What? I don't want to be a martyr, I just don't want to be the bad guy. Saying it kills me was obviously an exaggeration of words, but its meaning should convey. I stood there wanting to cry in the shower, but forcing myself to hold back the tears, because I know I wont be happy in this marriage and I know I am missing out on life staying in it. I am not trying to say I am the victim, I know the truth is in the end we are both victims because neither of us is getting what we want. I am not and she is not, we both know that. It is just as much her responsibility as it is mine to address the issues.


You have kept your issues a secret, as such I'm skeptical of that.


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## gbrad

wilderness said:


> You have kept your issues a secret, as such I'm skeptical of that.


I have said multiple times, my wife and I have had discussions about things that we want different in our marriage. Changes happen for a couple days and then it is back to regular. We are just so very different in the way we live and what we want that neither one of us keeps up with what the other wants/needs.


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## greenfern

gbrad said:


> I have said multiple times, my wife and I have had discussions about things that we want different in our marriage. Changes happen for a couple days and then it is back to regular. We are just so very different in the way we live and what we want that neither one of us keeps up with what the other wants/needs.


Can you explain more about this, how are you different in the way you live?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

gbrad said:


> Nothing in life is really black and white. If you want to look at it that way, fine, but I and many people see life as circumstantial.


it's either true (WHITE ) or a Lie (Black)


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## just got it 55

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbrad View Post 
But everyone here talks as if telling her "hey lets get divorced" is something you can just throw out there. It is not an easy conversation and I think is one that has to be planned for, not just jumped right into. I will be sad when it is over as well, because I know that most likely there will not be any kind of relationship afterwards. The idea of her being completely out of my life, does make me sad. That is not something I want to just jump at with both feet without carefully looking first. We are getting closer to being there, just not all the way yet. 

8 – 23- 2012 08:48 PM Wanting a Divorce 
________________________________________
I have been contemplating divorce for a long time. At this point I am getting closer to my breaking point. I want to be able to support myself financially before I approach the topic of divorce with my wife, but everyday is getting harder and harder. I have been unhappy for a significant amount of time, but right now everyday is a struggle. I think that the closest time frame for being able to even bring up the idea of divorce is a year away, but sometimes I wonder how I will make it that far. I know its a process and eventually I will have to broach the topic with my wife, but right now, I just wish I didn't have to live with her at all. We live such separate lives already, that being with her just makes things more stressful. I know that I need to find a way to make the time between now and when it actually happens more bearable, I just don't know how. 

From your post ????

Make a GD Decision 

Over a year now 

How much more of 2 lives are you going to waste ?


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## gbrad

just got it 55 said:


> it's either true (WHITE ) or a Lie (Black)


Obviously from this post and the one below, you see things in life as simple; I don't. Life is not that simple. And again, if you had actually read, while I have thought about the idea of divorce for a while, it wasn't until just recently that I actually felt ready for it. There is a huge difference.


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## just got it 55

gbrad said:


> Obviously from this post and the one below, you see things in life as simple; I don't. Life is not that simple. And again, if you had actually read, while I have thought about the idea of divorce for a while, it wasn't until just recently that I actually felt ready for it. There is a huge difference.


Sorry OP I see the truth as simple an in "The Simple Truth"

I am trying to encourage you to bring this to an end for you and your wife if this is what you TRULY WANT


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## just got it 55

just got it 55 said:


> Here it is Plain and simple truth
> 
> I am sorry I did my best to make this work but I am not happy and can sense that you are not either. You may feel that you are, but in time you will see that you are not. Or you will eventually pick up on my unhappiness which will affect your happiness. This is an emotional process that I been working through and have failed to get where I / we need to be to remain as a married couple.
> 
> It would be unfair for the both of us to continue as presently constituted, as we are both victims .Given the amount of time I have tried to resolve my feelings it is at this point hopeless for me to see a different outcome.
> 
> Thank You for the time we have spent together I wish only for your happiness. You will find it with someone you deserve and your love is not unrequited but real .
> 
> As we have no children this would be the time to make a clean break for us both to make a new start in life


You said this came off cold
Let's see if you can warm it up as an exersise

I bet you can do this in 10 minutes and put ths issue to bed

We are here to help if you want it


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## LongWalk

Just to play the devil's advocate, there are many men in sexless marriage who a dying for a wife who desires them. Why don't initiate wild monkey sex with her often to see if you can create a love buzz


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## LIMBOLADY

gbrad said:


> Obviously from this post and the one below, you see things in life as simple; I don't. Life is not that simple. And again, if you had actually read, while I have thought about the idea of divorce for a while, it wasn't until just recently that I actually felt ready for it. There is a huge difference.


There is a huge difference. My husband and I had many conversations over the years of things that were wrong in the relationship. And much like you have stated things would change for a day or a week but then go back to the same old, same old.

However, having a conversation about the relationship and what changes you and her would like to see are entirely different than the divorce conversation.

The stakes are different. For me and maybe your wife too, I didn't realize how bad it was for him and how he was feeling. Having that information sooner with time to process could have changed the entire picture.

Give your wife the benefit of the doubt. Maybe she will just agree to divorce but maybe not. People can make changes. She may really want to try. But if you are already checked out then she deserves the right to know.

There will never be a perfect time for this sort of conversation.


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## gbrad

LongWalk said:


> Just to play the devil's advocate, there are many men in sexless marriage who a dying for a wife who desires them. Why don't initiate wild monkey sex with her often to see if you can create a love buzz


There are two problems with that. 1. She loves sex, but not wild monkey sex (ie, she is pretty vanilla in the bedroom). 2. I like sex, even sex with her, I just don't like sex with her often.


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## greenfern

gbrad said:


> There are two problems with that. 1. She loves sex, but not wild monkey sex (ie, she is pretty vanilla in the bedroom). 2. I like sex, even sex with her, I just don't like sex with her often.


What is the compatibility issue other than sex?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## muskrat

Maybe instead of looking at what is wrong you should look at what is good and try to build off of that.

A wise man once told me, "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Because it is on top of a cesspool."


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## LongWalk

gbrad said:


> There are two problems with that. 1. She loves sex, but not wild monkey sex (ie, she is pretty vanilla in the bedroom). 2. I like sex, even sex with her, I just don't like sex with her often.


Lead instead of waiting. 

Does she smell bad or disgust you?

If you just know you don't like her, just divorce her. Does she ever make you laugh? Tell her about the things she has done that surprised you and made you happy?

Does she have any qualities, such as loyalty, courage, integrity?


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## gbrad

greenfern said:


> What is the compatibility issue other than sex?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If I had to list top 10 compatibility issues, sex might have a hard time making the list, might sneak in there at 9 or 10.


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## gbrad

muskrat said:


> Maybe instead of looking at what is wrong you should look at what is good and try to build off of that.
> 
> A wise man once told me, "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Because it is on top of a cesspool."


I have tried looking at an focusing on the good. People always use that quote of grass being greener on the other side until you actually get to the other side; but that doesn't mean that the grass can't be greener somewhere else. 



LongWalk said:


> Lead instead of waiting.
> 
> Does she smell bad or disgust you?
> 
> If you just know you don't like her, just divorce her. Does she ever make you laugh? Tell her about the things she has done that surprised you and made you happy?
> 
> Does she have any qualities, such as loyalty, courage, integrity?


She used to make me laugh and I made her laugh, rarely anymore. Yes she has good qualities, I know that she is a good person, but sometimes two good people just don't mesh well together. 
And she doesn't disgust me, she just doesn't turn me on.


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## greenfern

gbrad said:


> If I had to list top 10 compatibility issues, sex might have a hard time making the list, might sneak in there at 9 or 10.


So what are the issues then?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

You don't write about children. Guess you don't have any. Is that an issue?

She may be relieved to be divorced from you.

If you feel that the root of your unhappiness is your lack of compatibility, then divorce asap. If your emotional dissatisfaction is coming from within you, i.e., is because you, then divorce is just an escape. You will still have to face the unhappiness.


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