# Dr Psych Mom on the shift in desire in married/LTR women, including Bait and Switch, sexless marriage, nonmonogamy , when to divorceetc



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I have become a pretty big fan of the Dr Psych Mom podcasts and articles over the last few weeks. 

First my disclaimer: I am in no way affliliated with her material and have no financial interests in her content. I am not even one of her paid subscribers, I only access her free material. 

Anyway, Dr Samantha Rodman Whiten is a PhD clinical psychologist and licensed therapist that has a series of podcasts and articles on her website that deal with a lot, and I do mean A LOT of the things discussed here on TAM. Much of what discuss here, she sees in her private practice in couple's counseling and therapy. 

One of her key principles that is a foundational concept of her material is that women in long term monogamous relationships very commonly experience a significance shift in their level of sexual desire with their partner.

I am going to paraphrase her descriptions using my own verbiage and communication style but I will state that in her podcasts she is very blunt and nuts-and-bolts and lays it all out there without any sugar coating. If anything, she is often more blunt and matter-of-fact than I am. 

So as she lays it out, it is very common for women to experience a pretty dramatic shift in their level of desire after the first year and a half to 2 years of an exclusive monogamous relationship and especially after children arrive. 

It's not just that they become "less" horny. Their basic desire structure and paradigm can shift. The biggest difference occurs within their level of spontaneous desire. Their SD can decrease dramatically or actually go away all together. 

That can shift over to a Responsive Desire framework where they go on about their day with virtually no sexual feelings or desire whatsoever, to being sexually responsive and functional if giving the proper amount and context of initiation, seduction and foreplay and arousal by their partner. 

She can be responsive to her partner's initiation and seduction if finds him fundamentally attractive and the relationship is healthy and functional and when she does have sex, that the sex is good for her. If she is able to keep an open mind and understand that sexuality is an important factor in a relationship and it is necessary for him to remain in a functional marriage, she will be open to his advances. 

However if any of those ingredients is missing from the relationship or she thinks he is an A-hole or she doesn't have any physical attraction to him or he does not have the initiative or seduction skills and does not please her when they do have sex, things will break down pretty quickly and they will end up in her office or here on the pages of TAM in a sexless marriage. 

Dr Rodman Whiten does NOT believe in Bait-and Switch. She does not believe women intentionally lure men into a committed relationship with sex and then turn off the spigot once the marriage certificate is signed. She believes that the loss of SD is a natural process and that the couple has not learned to adapt to the transition of a young single female without children out dating and hitting the clubs drinking and dancing and being fueled by New Relationship Energy and baby-making hormones,,,, to going to a day-to-day relationship with young kids and all of the NRE and SD has worn off. 

If allowed to continue, this loss of SD and not being able to tap into her RD, her sexuality can go completely dormant and she can appear to be completely asexual... even to herself. 

She may experience a little bump in desire when ovulating. But if she is pi$$ed at her partner for whatever reason at that time or if he has slumped into his man-cave and walling himself up in his own activities or if he has turned to spanking to porn all the time and they miss that window of opportunity, they become another sexless marriage statistic. 

The big threat with all of this is her loss of spontaneous desire is it is a loss of desire FOR HER PARTNER. Her desire FOR HIM has gone dormant but the reality is she is still a sexually viable woman and her desire and response can be activated by Sven From Yoga or Kevin From Sales if they make some kind of enticing initiative while she is ovulating. 

One of the other things I find interesting about Dr Psych Mom is she does not believe the standard narrative, even within her own profession, that women are innately more monogamous than men. She believes women are inherently NOT monogamous at all and in fact have a much harder time remaining happy and satisfied within a long term monogamous relationship than men do. 

She believes the primal programming of women is to be all hot and horny for the hot guy she encounters, have hot and heavy wild monkey sex with him until an offspring is produced. Have a relationship with him until said offspring is done nursing and is able to feed and toilet and dress and move about effectively on it's own and then when she starts to ovulate again, find another hot guy, rinse and repeat. 

That's obviously not even practical let alone acceptable in polite society so people have to find other ways to maintain working relationships that last longer than ovulation cycles, hence why we have MCs and therapists and websites like TAM, 
So what's a couple to do??? Well per Dr Rodman Whiten, the first step is simply understanding the difference in nomenclature between the girls and the boys. 

Men's spontaneous desire will basically keep on trucking unabated for the next 30, 40, 50 years. A man will typically have about the same level of interest and desire at 55 that he did at 25 if he remains in good health and fitness. 

A woman's SD will drop off precipitously within the first couple years, especially after having kids and will shift to primarily RD. 

A woman will become bored and frustrated in a LTR much quicker than a man and so the couple will need to maintain an element of novelty and variety and excitement in their lives in general and not just the bedroom. So things like vacations. fun activities, date nights, trying new things, getting out and doing things. 

Some couples do explore consensual nonmonogamy in effort to keep her level of SD higher and that can have it's own set of risks and benefits, and some couples are able to navigate that successfully and many are not. 

And one last thing that I appreciate about Dr Psych Mom is she actually addresses when it's time to throw in the towel and move on and she is one of the first professionals that I have encountered that will actually come out and say that sometimes people are better off splitting, even in the absence of abuse or alcoholism/addiction, adultery etc. 

She differentiates between responsive desire and actually not wanting to have an intimate life. In otherwords, some people have lost their SD but still fundamentally want to have an intimate life with their partner and are open to the idea of having sex,,,,,, they simply aren't being provided the incentive and stimulation they need to be aroused enough to do it. 

However, there are other people that truly do NOT want to have a sex life with their partner anymore and will not be attracted to them or desire them not matter how fit and buff they get and no matter how nice they are or how willing they are to please. 

In those situations Dr Whiten says if you don't want to be with someone, then you shouldn't be with them. And if your partner simply no longer likes you and does not want to be with you anymore and you want to have an intimate partnership, then it is in your best interests to find someone else. 

So that is my summation of what I have gotten from Dr Psych Mom over the last few weeks. 

If anyone else here follows her material and you have anything to add or if you feel I have misrepresented her in any way, please speak up. 

And if you have not followed any of her stuff, feel free to add any feedback on whether you think she is on the money or full of crap. 

And again, I have no affiliation with her whatsoever and have no financial or any other interest in her content. I just like how she explains things and think puts it well.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

That all sounds pretty accurate, although there is infinite variation between different couples. Thanks for the tip, I will listen to some.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I have become a pretty big fan of the Dr Psych Mom podcasts and articles over the last few weeks.
> 
> First my disclaimer: I am in no way affliliated with her material and have no financial interests in her content. I am not even one of her paid subscribers, I only access her free material.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of that and also agree with Laurentium that there is going to be variation within couples. 

I think it would be fair to say that it's an accurate generalization of sexual changes at different life stages.

I do think women may need the new relationship rush more than most men to feel sexual. But I also think that that's not all about sex but is about the excitement of discovering someone new and getting to know someone. And I also think it's about the level of interest and attention going back and forth more than anything else that stimulates a woman to be sexual.

But again you can't say that for every woman. I have known exceptions.

I should add that a couple of exceptions I have known, one woman was bipolar and hypersexual. The other was married to someone who just didn't want sex hardly ever in any productive way that would benefit her (he was pretty hands off). So she was DTF if he was ever game for it. So neither of them were married to hypersexual men or at least one of them probably would have had her fill or had the normal times of being too exhausted, but that wasn't the case. 

The first, the bipolar hypersexual one, cheated once her husband was terminal, which was when I broke off contact with her.

The other is now divorced for various and sundry good reasons.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

The fundamental point, for me, is that human beings do a LOT of stuff that they are not _consciously_ doing. 

There is that initial, "honeymoon", "NRE" stage of excitement and spontaneous desire, and then that naturally comes to an end, after say a year or two, and we move into the next stage(s), of the more mature relationship. That's a good thing. That's only a problem if people _think_ it's a problem, if they have the illusion that it's supposed to be the NRE for ever. 

There is no genetic reason for women to seek a _hot new_ partner. If they've had a healthy baby with a man, then that proves that he's fertile, after all. Why not have the next one with him too, evolutionarily speaking? Better the devil you know. (Unless he's shown some major defect.) It's not that women are "programmed" to find a new partner, it's that they are "programmed" to build a family. 

Looked at from the opposite angle, what often happens is that men want their partner to look after them like a mother, and once some actual children arrive, the man starts sulking that the children get all the attention. 

Like I said, what makes all this hard to work with is that people won't acknowledge it. They settle into their routine surface-level complaints, _"he doesn't do enough housework", "she never initiates"_, and don't look at the SD / RD cycle at all. They focus on "who is to blame" and don't think about "what is really happening here?"


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Sounds like one of the strongest arguments for men to seek prenups if they're crazy enough to get married in this day and age.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Does she ever cover the topic of low value men and their roll in sexual breakdown?

SAHD, low income, easy to run over, pedestal placing ….. etc etc etc


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I do think women may need the new relationship rush more than most men to feel sexual.


I think that is a good way to word it. 

Men are effected by NRE and over time will experience a decline in NRE as well. 

However I think it's fair to say that NRE wears off with women a lot faster and their decline of SD will will drop off much more dramatically than with men. 

Many a man can still feel about the same level of desire and attraction for his wife and still want to have sex with her 20 years later. 

It's just not the same for women in 20 years. 

If their relationship is healthy and functional and he hasn't let himself go and is a fat, unkempt slob and they still get out and do fun things together and he has working initiation, seduction and sexual skills and can still please her,, she may be open to the idea of a marital sex life and will afford him the opportunity to seduce her and stimulate her Responsive Desire for which she may become an active participant. 

But very few women are going to see their husband of 20+ years toweling off after getting out of the shower and instantly say, "Dayum!!! I wanna get me some of that!!" 

Where as many men will still feel that way about their wives 20some years later.

Are there individual exceptions?? Well of course. There are dogs that meow and cats that bark. But the typical trend is women will experience a precipitous drop in their SD within a few years of marriage and men will typically maintain a high level of SD despite the length of the relationship.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Mr.Married said:


> Does she ever cover the topic of low value men and their roll in sexual breakdown?
> 
> SAHD, low income, easy to run over, pedestal placing ….. etc etc etc


Yes, but not in the manner that one would initially think. 

She definitely puts a lot of the onus on men to be proactive and be present in the relationship and present in her life as a partner if he wants to maintain some semblance of a marital sex life. . 

But her point is this happens in couples with high functioning and successful men just as much and some times even more if the man becomes hyperfocused on his career and thinks that she will be aroused by the money he brings home. Perfect case in point is it is becoming public knowledge of marital strife with Tom Brady's marriage. Gisele is bi+ching that he said he would quit his day job and be home on Sundays more often. That shows this is universal since Tom Brady is not a low value man. 

A lot of the red pill community would have us believe that the decline in female desire is the result of men getting fat and playing video games and getting self indulgent in their own hobbies and interests. 

Dr Laura Schlesinger used to claim that men sulk into their man cave and become drunk and fat and lazy and self indulgent because their wives have cut them off and became emasculating and disrespectful. 

Dr Psych Mom's position seems to be that this is a natural process and that for a couple to work through it, they both need to understand the powers at play and work within a framework that supports her responsive desire if they are to maintain a long term monogamous relationship.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownButNotOut said:


> Sounds like one of the strongest arguments for men to seek prenups if they're crazy enough to get married in this day and age.


Or learn how the sexual dynamics in a relationship play out and change over time and learn how to work withing that framework.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Or learn how the sexual dynamics in a relationship play out and change over time and learn how to work withing that framework.


A lot of what you are saying is exactly how it played out in my life. We came to recognize and identify what was happening and why. It wasn’t until we put hard information gathering effort to it that we could put terms and names to it. Our direct efforts to counter and manage it is exactly how we have ended up in our current relationship of abundance.

Edit: I think subconsciously everyone already knows everything we have said here but the hard part is dragging it out the back of your mind and out of your mouth to your partner.


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## Alittlelost57 (May 8, 2019)

Laurentium said:


> The fundamental point, for me, is that human beings do a LOT of stuff that they are not _consciously_ doing.
> 
> There is that initial, "honeymoon", "NRE" stage of excitement and spontaneous desire, and then that naturally comes to an end, after say a year or two, and we move into the next stage(s), of the more mature relationship. That's a good thing. That's only a problem if people _think_ it's a problem, if they have the illusion that it's supposed to be the NRE for ever.
> 
> ...


There might be some genetic reason for her to feel an urge toward variety. It's generally good for a species. I'm not saying that's conclusive proof of anything or that your take is necessarily wrong, but her urge toward variety could be an inherited trait that helped maintain genetic diversity in her (our) ancestors.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Laurentium said:


> There is no genetic reason for women to seek a _hot new_ partner. If they've had a healthy baby with a man, then that proves that he's fertile, after all. Why not have the next one with him too, evolutionarily speaking? Better the devil you know. (Unless he's shown some major defect.) It's not that women are "programmed" to find a new partner, it's that they are "programmed" to build a family.


You’re the only person I’ve ever heard say that during any kind of evolutionary or genetic discussion (not that that makes you wrong or everyone else right)

Herd vitality and genetic diversity within a given herd would favor a variety of mates throughout a lifetime. 

Unless one particular mate was clearly genetically superior to all others.


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## Alittlelost57 (May 8, 2019)

And oldshirt, thanks for posting this. The info seems to have some validity, and really ought to be discussed by partners before marriage or cohabiting, especially if kids are a possibility. Men and women need to see the possibility of her desire waning or changing and not get defensive about it, and both need to commit to dealing with it effectively. Or, they need to be honest with themselves and each other and not expect something long term to work if either is unwilling to deal with the challenges.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Laurentium said:


> Like I said, what makes all this hard to work with is that people won't acknowledge it. They settle into their routine surface-level complaints, _"he doesn't do enough housework", "she never initiates"_, and don't look at the SD / RD cycle at all. They focus on "who is to blame" and don't think about "what is really happening here?"


I agree with this. I think quite a few of these “she won’t initiate” threads are related to this. 

These guys may have got with these chicks when they were young, hot, single babes in tight skirts and high heels dancing and drinking and partying it up at the clubs and tearing into them like wildcats when they first got together and all the NRE and baby making hormones were raging and the drink was flowing,, and now 10+ years and some kids later, she is basically an entirely different person- and in many ways she is.

….. but he is still the same and still wants to be taken home by the hot chick in the mini skirt and heels and ravaging him like there’s no tomorrow like she did a dozen years prior. 

This can be even more of an issue in couples where the female was initially very sexually coward and has now done a sexual 180 and no longer shows any sexual initiative. 

That sexuality may still be present, but it has shifted to a more RD dynamic and requires more forethought and initiative on the male.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> they both need to understand the powers at play and *work within a framework that supports her responsive desire* if they are to maintain a long term monogamous relationship.


So wouldn't this mean that all these complaints about "she doesn't initiate" are wasted, unproductive, and perhaps actually making their married sex life worse? 

FWIW, my wife was NEVER "spontaneous desire", even when we were dating.. But very enthusiastically responded to my initiating. Nothing has changed, she has always been and remains "RD". Would imagine if all I had ever done was byche at her that she didn't initiate we likely would have divorced about 5 years in.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Alittlelost57 said:


> There might be some genetic reason for her to feel an urge toward variety. It's generally good for a species. I'm not saying that's conclusive proof of anything or that your take is necessarily wrong, but her urge toward variety could be an inherited trait that helped maintain genetic diversity in her (our) ancestors.


Yes. Many decades ago when I was in college I was in a sociology class that discussed that very thing. According to the instructor, in some cultures men and women only stayed together for a few years, presumably dealing with children, and then each moved on to the next partner. I’m sure the topic was covered in more depth but that’s the part I remember. I have always believed that in general both men and women are genetically wired not to be monogamous (some obviously are wired to be) in order to spread those genes as much as possible. I think most women who cheat do so out of sexual boredom. Most men who cheat just want variety and they continue sex with their wives but most women who cheat just want one new partner and rarely do they want sex with their old partner at the same time. Eventually, if they stay married to the old partner, they will likely become bored with the new partner and find another new partner at some point. When women become sexually bored problems begin.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

oldshirt said:


> Or learn how the sexual dynamics in a relationship play out and change over time and learn how to work withing that framework.


It is exactly because of such learning that a prenup becomes vital.

The framework is that once the woman loses sexual interest - and she will -, nothing the man can do will change that. Suffer, Leave, or wait for her to leave. Those are the options. Much better for the prenup to be in place with those predictable outcomes.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I pretty much agree with the TL;DR of the podcast.

As for RD/SD yes, if you’re hung up on who initiates you’re doing it wrong.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> So wouldn't this mean that all these complaints about "she doesn't initiate" are wasted, unproductive, and perhaps actually making their married sex life worse?
> 
> FWIW, my wife was NEVER "spontaneous desire", even when we were dating.. But very enthusiastically responded to my initiating. Nothing has changed, she has always been and remains "RD". Would imagine if all I had ever done was byche at her that she didn't initiate we likely would have divorced about 5 years in.


Yes, and I think that’s generally the message most of us try to give those guys. Maybe with less psych behind it but I think that’s directionally the message that generally gets delivered. Unfortunately, most of the “my wife on initiate“ dudes don’t usually like that message.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rus47 said:


> So wouldn't this mean that all these complaints about "she doesn't initiate" are wasted, unproductive, and perhaps actually making their married sex life worse?


In a way, the flip side would be women wanting men to be sexually dormant and only have responsive desire to their initiative. 

So however much time and energy would be wasted on a woman wanting a man to be sexually inert and only respond sexually to her initiation when she decided it was time for sex - that’s probably how much time and energy is wasted on man wanting his 40 year old wife and mother of 15 years to initiate with him.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownButNotOut said:


> It is exactly because of such learning that a prenup becomes vital.
> 
> The framework is that once the woman loses sexual interest - and she will -, nothing the man can do will change that. Suffer, Leave, or wait for her to leave. Those are the options. Much better for the prenup to be in place with those predictable outcomes.


I’m not sure what a prenup would be able to accomplish here. 

You can’t prenup away human nature. 

And it’s not that people necessarily lose their sexual functioning or vitality. It shifts domains. What may have been spontaneous desire as a single, childfree 25 year old looking to get with the hunky stud,, it shifts to a responsive desire as a 40 year old mother of three married to a now balding, pot bellied 40some year old guy that comes home, pops a beer and vegges in front of the TV. 

You can’t prenup away aging and changes in life stages.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

The other thing is when you’re 25 you have no idea, well I didn’t at least. I thought everything would stay the same.

So if you approached 25 year old me and was like “you need a prenuptial for sex” or something like that I was walking around with my D hurting from being worn out. I would have laughed in your face and said no way!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DudeInProgress said:


> Yes, and I think that’s generally the message most of us try to give those guys. Maybe with less psych behind it but I think that’s directionally the message that generally gets delivered. Unfortunately, most of the “my wife on initiate“ dudes don’t usually like that message.


This is my own $.02, and probably overcharging, but I think in many ways we tend to want our partner to be an opposite sex version of ourselves. 

If we show our love and desire by initiating, it only makes sense that we would see our partner coming on to us as an indication of their love and desire for us.

But girls and boys are different. 

Women show their love and desire for us by not kneeing us in the balls, pepper spraying us and calling the cops when we initiate.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

So I don’t know where I fall as I’ve known my husband 30 years, only had sex wiling him, and we go at it at least 4 times a week 50/50 initiation. Cut the crap women hate sex. Women don’t want sex with certain men And maybe they chose poor spouses.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ccpowerslave said:


> The other thing is when you’re 25 you have no idea, well I didn’t at least. I thought everything would stay the same.
> 
> So if you approached 25 year old me and was like “you need a prenuptial for sex” or something like that I was walking around with my D hurting from being worn out. I would have laughed in your face and said no way!


Yeah, sexual prenups are pretty much laughable. And yes, I don’t think anyone can fully grasp the changes that will take place over the years.

When I was getting married, I was not naive. I know fully well that things would change over time and that we would not be swinging from the chandeliers forever. 

But even then, I not only underestimated how much the libido would crash with menopause at the 20year mark, but I also underestimated how much that would effect me. 

I just thought I would be fine for a few times a month and some HJs and BJs thrown in to hold me over and all would be fine. 

I grossly underestimated how much that would effect and impact all other areas of our relationship and connection as well.


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## Tuscany (10 mo ago)

Do you really believe that men generally have the same sex drive at 50 that they did at 25? Being honest here: Not me. 
I'm glad to hear that she doesn't believe that women intentionally use "bait and switch" to trap a fellow. The attachment many men have to this belief (maybe some women too) on sites like this is unfortunate, insofar as it really only promotes more dissatisfaction among the guys that promote it. 

We are animals. Sexual attraction and sex itself are based on the need to reproduce. If humans are monogamous, or at least form "family" bonds with their mates, once the purpose of attracting a mate, bonding and procreating has been accomplished, there would naturally be a decline in courtship behaviors and sexual activity. I agree that a conscious effort needs to me made to keep this from driving relationships into the ground. 

As I've aged, I've noticed how naturally people in their teens through early 30's tend to gravitate to others in their age groups, have a strong drive to socialize, and that it's much easier to make same sex friendships than when we get older. I believe it all stems from reproductive urges, even if the people aren't actively looking for sex or feeling horny. Nature has simply programmed us to be socially active when it's time to reproduce.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

This is why I will never get married again. It is easier just to trade in every couple of months then to deal with ending up with a roommate.


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> I have become a pretty big fan of the Dr Psych Mom podcasts and articles over the last few weeks.
> 
> First my disclaimer: I am in no way affliliated with her material and have no financial interests in her content. I am not even one of her paid subscribers, I only access her free material.
> 
> ...


Doesn't make sense then why half of the marriages are sexless because of the men. I just saw a post here, dragonfly, said her husband is the culprit. And me personally, I feel my wife is the one with the higher desire. I know she's not "bored" of me in any way and we are together 20 years. I think it comes down to a respect thing. If a woman truly respects you as a man and leader, you will not be having a sexless marriage, unless a medical problem is involved. Further, most of the times a man is complaining about his LL wife, it's followed by: and I do all the cleaning, raise the kids, rub her toes....blah blah blah. Most women don't respect that crap, and it certainly doesn't turn them on to see their husbands doing the laundry. I know i'll get a lot of flack for this, however, it's something I see with my own eyes daily from these boards.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Mybabysgotit said:


> Doesn't make sense then why half of the marriages are sexless because of the men.


I have seen that figure here but I think it’s more like 20%, although it’s tough to find the citations for all of the numbers being thrown around.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

Again, not all women hate sex. I’m a fan because: my husband doesn’t brag all the women who ask to bang him, he’s my best friend, he helps around the house ( how Beta!!!!) he respects me,….and therefore I find giving oral fun and live him because he doesn’t throw all his potential conquests in my face. He’s hot. A young Peter Cetera( I’m old ) or Anthony Michael hall but blond


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> I have seen that figure here but I think it’s more like 20%, although it’s tough to find the citations for all of the numbers being thrown around.


go to deadbedrooms over on reddit, or marriage advice and tell me it's 20%. I was being generous on the 50%


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Mybabysgotit said:


> Doesn't make sense then why half of the marriages are sexless because of the men. I just saw a post here, dragonfly, said her husband is the culprit. And me personally, I feel my wife is the one with the higher desire. I know she's not "bored" of me in any way and we are together 20 years. I think it comes down to a respect thing. If a woman truly respects you as a man and leader, you will not be having a sexless marriage, unless a medical problem is involved. Further, most of the times a man is complaining about his LL wife, it's followed by: and I do all the cleaning, raise the kids, rub her toes....blah blah blah. Most women don't respect that crap, and it certainly doesn't turn them on to see their husbands doing the laundry. I know i'll get a lot of flack for this, however, it's something I see with my own eyes daily from these boards.


Nothing closes a women's legs faster then lose of respect for her man


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Mybabysgotit said:


> go to deadbedrooms over on reddit, or marriage advice and tell me it's 20%. I was being generous on the 50%


I have been there. The 20% figure is from the Foreplay podcast from Dr. Laurie Watson presumably from actual research where they verified the sex of the people who participated. Seems to also be backed up by cursory google searches ex.



https://www.livescience.com/41031-low-sexual-desire-men.html



r/deadbedrooms is an outlier or just bogus. I’d say TAM better represents the ratios found in the literature, maybe it also skews older. In the link above the answers get more different the older the participants as suggested here.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I disagree with the bait and switch issue. Some women definitely and purposefully do it, to get the kind of lifestyle they want. It's awful.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Livvie said:


> I disagree with the bait and switch issue. Some women definitely and purposefully do it, to get the kind of lifestyle they want. It's awful.


Bait and switch is definitely a thing.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

When men act like assholes women lose interest in sex with said man.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

I think my point about how people focus on the surface level, has been adequately illustrated!


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

snowbum said:


> When men act like assholes women lose interest in sex with said man.


Sometimes, sure.
Women also lose interest in sex with said man when they start to find him boring, mundane, when he lets himself go physically, become passive, weak and allows her to run the show, etc.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

oldshirt said:


> I’m not sure what a prenup would be able to accomplish here.
> 
> You can’t prenup away human nature.
> 
> ...


I never said prenup because of sex. But recognizing the truth, and realizing that at some point Stella is going to want her groove back, having a contingency plan (a.k.a. prenup) is vital.

You said it yourself:


> However, there are other people that truly do NOT want to have a sex life with their partner anymore and will not be attracted to them or desire them not matter how fit and buff they get and no matter how nice they are or how willing they are to please.
> 
> In those situations Dr Whiten says if you don't want to be with someone, then you shouldn't be with them.


I believe those 'other people' are a larger proportion than you probably do.

I'd tell 25 year old guy ... don't marry. If you ignore that, get a prenup to protect yourself when she decides to blow up what you've built.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

DownButNotOut said:


> I'd tell 25 year old guy ... don't marry. If you ignore that, get a prenup to protect yourself when she decides to blow up what you've built.


Except that a 25 year old guy generally has no assets to protect in the first place. 
Prenups generally protect the assets of one or both parties that were acquired prior to marriage.
So what would be the point for a young guy?


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

DudeInProgress said:


> Sometimes, sure.
> Women also lose interest in sex with said man when they start to find him boring, mundane, when he lets himself go physically, become passive, weak and allows her to run the show, etc.


Or when he works too much, or works too little, or is too passive, or too controlling.

Basically when they look at him at think, "I bet I can do better"


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

Same thing the guy thinks


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I think all this allowing her husband to seduce her if he does x,y, z is just bs and if that’s how a lot of women are I’ll stay single and find one to live with until she pulls tha bs and I’ll boot her. That’s ridiculous. Abd a disservice to make men think this is what they should tolerate. The women I’m with seduce me. What a bunch of hooey


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I have become a pretty big fan of the Dr Psych Mom podcasts and articles over the last few weeks.
> 
> First my disclaimer: I am in no way affliliated with her material and have no financial interests in her content. I am not even one of her paid subscribers, I only access her free material.
> 
> ...


Sh!tt do you have the cliff notes? Looks interesting.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Evinrude58 said:


> I think all this allowing her husband to seduce her if he does x,y, z is just bs and if that’s how a lot of women are I’ll stay single and find one to live with until she pulls tha bs and I’ll boot her. That’s ridiculous. Abd a disservice to make men think this is what they should tolerate. The women I’m with seduce me. What a bunch of hooey


I haven't read the whole thing, maybe I should. Maybe a bit farther off than thought.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

DudeInProgress said:


> Except that a 25 year old guy generally has no assets to protect in the first place.
> Prenups generally protect the assets of one or both parties that were acquired prior to marriage.
> So what would be the point for a young guy?


Prenups also generally spell out how marital assets will be distributed in the event of divorce. About the only thing not allowed in them is child custody/support clauses.


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## Tuscany (10 mo ago)

Livvie said:


> I disagree with the bait and switch issue. Some women definitely and purposefully do it, to get the kind of lifestyle they want. It's awful.


In my long life and considerable wasted time on the Internet, my experience has been that most men who are complaining about intentional "bait and switch" did not offer much in the way of a plush lifestyle to any woman. They are sitting on the Internet complaining about women, not actually doing any type of interacting with them. 

If a man is wealthy and can offer a woman a grand lifestyle in exchange for sex, that's pretty transactional - and one can assume that if the woman is not holding up her end of the deal, he can offer the same perks to a different woman who will oblige. 

There is incentive against "bait and switch" if women are using sex to get a lifestyle.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Evinrude58 said:


> I think all this allowing her husband to seduce her if he does x,y, z is just bs and if that’s how a lot of women are I’ll stay single and find one to live with until she pulls tha bs and I’ll boot her. That’s ridiculous. Abd a disservice to make men think this is what they should tolerate. The women I’m with seduce me. What a bunch of hooey


Never put up with Hoop jumping


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

DownButNotOut said:


> Prenups also generally spell out how marital assets will be distributed in the event of divorce. About the only thing not allowed in them is child custody/support clauses.


Look, I totally get the value of a prenup if you’ve built up significant assets, or even modest assets. It’s a good idea, and I’d probably require one at my age (40s), if I were to divorce and consider marrying again.

but having a prenup, just to make some cathartic statement is ****ing stupid.
I think it would be stupid and counterproductive to insist on a prenup going into a marriage to stipulate the division of hypothetical assets that don’t even exist yet.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

We’re not all gold diggers. Husband made $4 hour when I met him. 30 years later he’s making 20x that. It took 30 years and a log of love and work


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## Tuscany (10 mo ago)

DownButNotOut said:


> I never said prenup because of sex. But recognizing the truth, and realizing that at some point Stella is going to want her groove back, having a contingency plan (a.k.a. prenup) is vital.


Are you assuming that in average American (that's where I am, anyway) households that the man generally will have more material assets than the women in most cases? In my professional / social and familial circles, this is not the case. It seems like professional people pair with similar. Young people who are just forging their way are also usually closely matched economically, in my experience.

Prenups are beneficial if a person comes into a relationship with a lot of assets that they want to protect in case of a divorce. The person with the assets might be the husband or wife, or in some cases a prenup would benefit both parties. 

I'm not seeing where "bait and switch" or Stella getting her groove back would come into play here.


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## gr8ful1 (Dec 3, 2016)

Back to topic…..

I find her podcasts interesting. She swears like a sailor which I find amusing. Interestingly she thinks **** Tests are not real.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

DudeInProgress said:


> I think it would be stupid and counterproductive to insist on a prenup going into a marriage to stipulate the division of hypothetical assets that don’t even exist yet.


Why? That's exactly what happens in long term divorce agreements. Alimony is imputing assets that don't exist yet to one party and transferring them to the other party.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

gr8ful1 said:


> Back to topic…..
> 
> I find her podcasts interesting. She swears like a sailor which I find amusing. Interestingly she thinks **** Tests are not real.


She is incorrect there


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

DownButNotOut said:


> Why? That's exactly what happens in long term divorce agreements. Alimony is imputing assets that don't exist yet to one party and transferring them to the other party.


If you’re that paranoid about how it might turn out even though you don’t have any assets to protect yet, you shouldn’t be getting married at all.

it’s one thing to say “I have significant assets that I am bringing into this, that I want to protect” - which is reasonable.

it’s entirely different to say “I don’t really have any assets to protect, but I hope that someday I / we will. 
And even though I have no idea what that might look like down the road, I have such a low expectation that this marriage will work out, that I want a prenup anyway to stipulate terms for distribution of assets that might hopefully exist in the future, at the time of our eventual divorce.” 
I think it’s ridiculous.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Tuscany said:


> Are you assuming that in average American (that's where I am, anyway) households that the man generally will have more material assets than the women in most cases? In my professional / social and familial circles, this is not the case. It seems like professional people pair with similar. Young people who are just forging their way are also usually closely matched economically, in my experience.
> 
> Prenups are beneficial if a person comes into a relationship with a lot of assets that they want to protect in case of a divorce. The person with the assets might be the husband or wife, or in some cases a prenup would benefit both parties.
> 
> I'm not seeing where "bait and switch" or Stella getting her groove back would come into play here.


The point is it is very predictable sexless marriages form. It is right there in the OP: "One of her key principles that is a foundational concept of her material is that women in long term monogamous relationships very commonly experience a significance shift in their level of sexual desire with their partner."

Given that is common female nature. And that common male nature is to not see such a falloff. And that there is really little a man can do to change that situation, also from OP: "However, there are other people that truly do NOT want to have a sex life with their partner anymore and will not be attracted to them or desire them not matter how fit and buff they get and no matter how nice they are or how willing they are to please."

That's the "bait and switch", whether conscious or not. 

And given that no fault divorce exists, and that the woman initiates the majority of the time (Stella's groove enters here), it behooves a man to prepare for that contingency. Prenups don't just protect prior assets, most states already protect that in any event, they also stipulate how marital assets are dealt with.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

DudeInProgress said:


> If you’re that paranoid about how it might turn out even though you don’t have any assets to protect yet, you shouldn’t be getting married at all.
> 
> it’s one thing to say “I have significant assets that I am bringing into this, that I want to protect” - which is reasonable.
> 
> ...


Horrible framing.

You use a prenup to protect your life's work. The State takes care of protecting what you had before.

That carpenter's apprentice should plan for when he owns his own construction business. Or that law student for when he makes partner. That tech guy with his small heavily in debt startup? Same thing. Maybe those all go under. But if they take off, you want them to be protected don't you?


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Tuscany said:


> Are you assuming that in average American (that's where I am, anyway) households that the man generally will have more material assets than the women in most cases? In my professional / social and familial circles, this is not the case. It seems like professional people pair with similar. Young people who are just forging their way are also usually closely matched economically, in my experience.
> 
> Prenups are beneficial if a person comes into a relationship with a lot of assets that they want to protect in case of a divorce. The person with the assets might be the husband or wife, or in some cases a prenup would benefit both parties.


as much as I think that it’s stupid for a 25 year old with no assets to insist on a prenup, I don’t like ignoring reality or pretending that it’s different than it is.
And the reality in the United States is
1. Men are likely to have more assets than women. That’s the reality in general. If you don’t see that in your circles, you’re in some very insulated circles or you’re not honestly looking.
Women tend to marry across and up, men tend to marry across and down.
That said, I agree that when starting out there is often less of a delta than further down the road.
2. The vast majority of divorces are initiated by women.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Not every woman who’s sexually bored will cheat but many will. The ones who are bored but don’t cheat are likely to turn into the wives that some TAM posters complain about in their sexless marriages. Turning that around can be a very difficult task because most of those wives aren’t interested enough to try. If they do make an effort then it’s usually to save their marriages and not because of any real desire.


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## Tuscany (10 mo ago)

DownButNotOut said:


> also from OP: "However, there are other* people* that truly do NOT want to have a sex life with their *partner* anymore and will not be attracted to them or desire them not matter how fit and buff they get and no matter how nice they are or how willing they are to please."
> 
> That's the "bait and switch", whether conscious or not.



This doesn't specify the gender or the marital role of the person who no longer wants a sex life with their partner, though. 

"Bait and switch" has to be conscious. Have you not lost feelings & sexual interest in a person? Most of us have. When we get involved romantically or sexually it's something that might happen. It's unfortunate, but it's not manipulative or shady in any way. 

I'm still not sure where a prenup would fit in.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> You’re the only person I’ve ever heard say that during any kind of evolutionary or genetic discussion (not that that makes you wrong or everyone else right)
> 
> Herd vitality and genetic diversity within a given herd would favor a variety of mates throughout a lifetime.
> 
> Unless one particular mate was clearly genetically superior to all others.


I would assume not all the male mates stuck around for a second child and so the women may have had a reason to keep moving or it may have been beyond their control.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Openminded said:


> Yes. Many decades ago when I was in college I was in a sociology class that discussed that very thing. According to the instructor, in some cultures men and women only stayed together for a few years, presumably dealing with children, and then each moved on to the next partner. I’m sure the topic was covered in more depth but that’s the part I remember. I have always believed that in general both men and women are genetically wired not to be monogamous (some obviously are wired to be) in order to spread those genes as much as possible. I think most women who cheat do so out of sexual boredom. Most men who cheat just want variety and they continue sex with their wives but most women who cheat just want one new partner and rarely do they want sex with their old partner at the same time. Eventually, if they stay married to the old partner, they will likely become bored with the new partner and find another new partner at some point. When women become sexually bored problems begin.


I agree except that it's not just sexually bored. It's bored in general. Not a matter of sexual acrobatics but wanting something or someone new in their life.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> This is my own $.02, and probably overcharging, but I think in many ways we tend to want our partner to be an opposite sex version of ourselves.
> 
> If we show our love and desire by initiating, it only makes sense that we would see our partner coming on to us as an indication of their love and desire for us.
> 
> ...


Pretty much like in the rest of nature.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Livvie said:


> I disagree with the bait and switch issue. Some women definitely and purposefully do it, to get the kind of lifestyle they want. It's awful.


That's gold diggers, and from what I've observed, the men intentionally seek them out in order to by their way up a level of attractiveness.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I agree except that it's not just sexually bored. It's bored in general. Not a matter of sexual acrobatics but wanting something or someone new in their life.


Yes, boredom in general is not uncommon but I don’t think it’s that frequently discussed as the marriage-killer it can be. Sexually I think fewer men experience it to the extent of completely losing interest that many women do but apparently there are more disinterested men out there than I thought. Monogamy just doesn’t work well for many men and women. I would have never dreamed my marriage would be one of the failures but looking back the red flags were there and I just didn’t pick up on them because I thought all was well. I’m definitely not the good judge of character that I thought I was. Sadly, there’s lot of company in that group.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Openminded said:


> Yes, boredom in general is not uncommon but I don’t think it’s that frequently discussed as the marriage-killer it can be. Sexually I think fewer men experience it to the extent of completely losing interest that many women do but apparently there are more disinterested men out there than I thought. Monogamy just doesn’t work well for many men and women. I would have never dreamed my marriage would be one of the failures but looking back the red flags were there and I just didn’t pick up on them because I thought all was well. I’m definitely not the good judge of character that I thought I was. Sadly, there’s lot of company in that group.


Well we're not all born being a good judge of character. In fact I found that some of the nicest people are the worst judges of character. They are so nice that they can't even fathom that someone else isn't, especially if they see any good in them because everybody is a mixed bag. Altruistic people will make all kinds of excuses for shady partners.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> One of her key principles that is a foundational concept of her material is that women in long term monogamous relationships very commonly experience a significance shift in their level of sexual desire with their partner.


I know what that's like, since I have felt that myself. To the point I dumped one woman because I grew bored of being with her both generally and sexually (despite how nice she was).

One thing for sure this happens to plenty of men as well.



> So as she lays it out, it is very common for women to experience a pretty dramatic shift in their level of desire after the first year and a half to 2 years of an exclusive monogamous relationship and especially after children arrive.
> 
> It's not just that they become "less" horny. Their basic desire structure and paradigm can shift. The biggest difference occurs within their level of spontaneous desire. Their SD can decrease dramatically or actually go away all together.
> 
> ...


With my wife and I, we were a bit over four years in, when our first child together arrived and our sex life was still rich at that point (and remained thus afterwards). While we've faced a varied life with some tough challenges. Yet so far there has always been sustainment of a rich and frequent sex life, that has seen renewal in different ways because it is always evolving. Although we were never being boring, which I'm sure matters enormously.



> However if any of those ingredients is missing from the relationship or she thinks he is an A-hole or she doesn't have any physical attraction to him or he does not have the initiative or seduction skills and does not please her when they do have sex, things will break down pretty quickly and they will end up in her office or here on the pages of TAM in a sexless marriage.


I've no doubt that this is the case for many and can just as easily apply to my sexual relationship with my wife, if our relationship ever devolves like that.



> Dr Rodman Whiten does NOT believe in Bait-and Switch. She does not believe women intentionally lure men into a committed relationship with sex and then turn off the spigot once the marriage certificate is signed. She believes that the loss of SD is a natural process and that the couple has not learned to adapt to the transition of a young single female without children out dating and hitting the clubs drinking and dancing and being fueled by New Relationship Energy and baby-making hormones,,,, to going to a day-to-day relationship with young kids and all of the NRE and SD has worn off.
> 
> If allowed to continue, this loss of SD and not being able to tap into her RD, her sexuality can go completely dormant and she can appear to be completely asexual... even to herself.
> 
> She may experience a little bump in desire when ovulating. But if she is pi$$ed at her partner for whatever reason at that time or if he has slumped into his man-cave and walling himself up in his own activities or if he has turned to spanking to porn all the time and they miss that window of opportunity, they become another sexless marriage statistic.


Sure some people do the bait and switch thing and that is both men and women. Although for the most part I think that for the most part that happens infrequently.

That said what I do think kills things in most instances, is boredom with ones partner both inside and outside of the bedroom.

If any parties to a sexual relationship are inclined towards being boring to who they are with. Then they will have a hard time in the long run, in being able to sustain a rich ongoing sex life at all.



> The big threat with all of this is her loss of spontaneous desire is it is a loss of desire FOR HER PARTNER. Her desire FOR HIM has gone dormant but the reality is she is still a sexually viable woman and her desire and response can be activated by Sven From Yoga or Kevin From Sales if they make some kind of enticing initiative while she is ovulating.


Drifting towards others can be the most natural thing.



> One of the other things I find interesting about Dr Psych Mom is she does not believe the standard narrative, even within her own profession, that women are innately more monogamous than men. She believes women are inherently NOT monogamous at all and in fact have a much harder time remaining happy and satisfied within a long term monogamous relationship than men do.
> 
> 
> She believes the primal programming of women is to be all hot and horny for the hot guy she encounters, have hot and heavy wild monkey sex with him until an offspring is produced. Have a relationship with him until said offspring is done nursing and is able to feed and toilet and dress and move about effectively on it's own and then when she starts to ovulate again, find another hot guy, rinse and repeat.


Yeah I don't buy that women are somehow more monogamous either. Of which that trope mostly comes from the late 18th century through 19th century as part of an attempt to limit the then ribald behaviour of the masses. Before then it was mostly thought that women were extraordinarily lustful creatures with wanton sensibilities (which is my experience). Although the reality tends to be a mixed bag somewhere between those two ideals.



> That's obviously not even practical let alone acceptable in polite society so people have to find other ways to maintain working relationships that last longer than ovulation cycles, hence why we have MCs and therapists and websites like TAM,
> So what's a couple to do??? Well per Dr Rodman Whiten, the first step is simply understanding the difference in nomenclature between the girls and the boys.


In many ways I think accepting that, more broadly would be a far better approach. Polite society be damned! So if people want to just stick to one person or do the same serially or they would rather embark upon variously sharing sex with other people, while staying together. All of that should be okay.

While it would probably be a good thing, if people simply accepted that for many, sexual relationships have a natural use by date. Since it really is okay for those relationships to come to an end. Likewise from my experience, we are clearly all replaceable and that really ought to be thought of as okay as well.



> Men's spontaneous desire will basically keep on trucking unabated for the next 30, 40, 50 years. A man will typically have about the same level of interest and desire at 55 that he did at 25 if he remains in good health and fitness.


Sure to a point, although I think men get bored, just like women get bored. Unfortunately some men like to kid themselves, that we want it all the time, with a partner we have been with like forever, even in the face of the sex being repetitively dull.

And make no mistake, lots of men (like lots of women) aren't that keen sexually, for a myriad of different reasons.



> A woman's SD will drop off precipitously within the first couple years, especially after having kids and will shift to primarily RD.
> 
> A woman will become bored and frustrated in a LTR much quicker than a man and so the couple will need to maintain an element of novelty and variety and excitement in their lives in general and not just the bedroom. So things like vacations. fun activities, date nights, trying new things, getting out and doing things.


I think this also impacts mens desires as well. With the reason why I want to share as much sex with my wife as I do. Is because we share variety in many different ways, with our sex life and personal relationship together constantly evolving. If it was the same old, same old all of the time, I wouldn't want to share much sex with my wife, just like she wouldn't want to share much sex with me.



> Some couples do explore consensual nonmonogamy in effort to keep her level of SD higher and that can have it's own set of risks and benefits, and some couples are able to navigate that successfully and many are not.


Non-monogamy obviously doesn't work for some people and does work for some others. Not forgetting that monogamous relationships, also come to an end with considerable frequency, even without going down the route of non-monogamy both ethically or otherwise.

One thing for sure sexual relationships can sometimes come in seasons.



> And one last thing that I appreciate about Dr Psych Mom is she actually addresses when it's time to throw in the towel and move on and she is one of the first professionals that I have encountered that will actually come out and say that sometimes people are better off splitting, even in the absence of abuse or alcoholism/addiction, adultery etc.


Sometimes it's better to end a relationship, and that really ought to be appreciated as a good thing, regardless of how people get there.



> She differentiates between responsive desire and actually not wanting to have an intimate life. In otherwords, some people have lost their SD but still fundamentally want to have an intimate life with their partner and are open to the idea of having sex,,,,,, they simply aren't being provided the incentive and stimulation they need to be aroused enough to do it.


Well there are significant differences between those people.



> However, there are other people that truly do NOT want to have a sex life with their partner anymore and will not be attracted to them or desire them not matter how fit and buff they get and no matter how nice they are or how willing they are to please.
> 
> In those situations Dr Whiten says if you don't want to be with someone, then you shouldn't be with them. And if your partner simply no longer likes you and does not want to be with you anymore and you want to have an intimate partnership, then it is in your best interests to find someone else.


Yep.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Evinrude58 said:


> I think all this allowing her husband to seduce her if he does x,y, z is just bs and if that’s how a lot of women are I’ll stay single and find one to live with until she pulls tha bs and I’ll boot her. That’s ridiculous. Abd a disservice to make men think this is what they should tolerate. The women I’m with seduce me. What a bunch of hooey


You have become bitter, and one of the MGTOW.

And, some may say Chauvinistic?

TAM, SI, does this to many.
Of course, as did that cheater(s) in your {past} life.

Snap out of it.

*We are all in the same leaky boat!
A small boat that some poop in.



*Men, women and children.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well we're not all born being a good judge of character. In fact I found that some of *the *nicest people* are the worst judges of character. They are so nice that they can't even fathom that someone else isn't, especially if they see any good in them because everybody is a mixed bag. Altruistic people will make all kinds of excuses for shady partners.


Yes, but *those people are preferable to the, out and out, miserable cynics.
Cynical people who are never happy and find fault everywhere.

Nice people make the best of friends; *of course*, and it easily proves my point.

Those curmudgeon cynics often display one (likely more) of the seven deadly sins.
Namely, pride, greed, wrath, envy, lust, gluttony and sloth.

I do not equate _pride_ as a sin, unless it is really excessive, to the point of going against good manners and common sense.
When pride becomes overt, illogical stubbornness, than mark it as a sin.

I do get the Biblical reference, and inclusion, however.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

SunCMars said:


> You have become bitter, and one of the MGTOW.
> 
> And, some may say Chauvinistic?
> 
> ...


But he is correct


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Numb26 said:


> But he is correct


Et tu, Brute?
....................................................................

Most men, and most women, have no interest in walking a minute in the other sexes shoes.

Keep in mind, there are good and bad in both the sexes. I cannot, in good faith, say one sex is better than the other.
That notion is simply not true.

I can reasonably say, that women, in general, are more emotional than men.
Men often find this off-putting.
Oh well, that is life!

The roles of men and women in society, naturally pits them against each other.
That is unavoidable.

You see this in most species, where the females role is to nurture and sustain the young, and maintain the nest.

Men are obliged to bring home the food and fight off predators.

In our modern 'human' society, these roles have blurred to a great extent.
That increases the already existing tension.

It is _much more complicated_ than what I just stated, but you get my point.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

SunCMars said:


> You have become bitter, and one of the MGTOW.
> 
> And, some may say Chauvinistic?
> 
> ...


I think Evinrude58 was right. 

Men shouldn't have to jump through hoops all of their life in order to be intimate with their partner. 

It should be much more of a mutual dynamic with the women putting in just as much work and energy to keep the desire and sex fires burning.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Livvie said:


> I think Evinrude58 was right.
> 
> Men shouldn't have to jump through hoops all of their life in order to be intimate with their partner.
> 
> _It should be much more of a mutual dynamic with the women putting in just as much work and energy to keep the desire and sex fires burning._


Of course,_ that part._

Howsoever.....

One should not allow that old bitterness to spoil your remaining, sparse days left on Earth.
Such, that bitter old baggage.

Bitterness has a tendency to cling to your hide.
Others can smell it.
Wash it free.

Acknowledge its existence, and rid yourself of those feelings.
By burying them, and overlaying them with good will's fill.

Do not Ignore, nor pretend to hide from that lingering acidic odor of those bitter roots.

......................................................

My boats are both powered by Evinrudes.

We are on the same page, not always on the same plane.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Evinrude58 said:


> I think all this allowing her husband to seduce her if he does x,y, z is just bs and if that’s how a lot of women are I’ll stay single and find one to live with until she pulls tha bs and I’ll boot her. That’s ridiculous. Abd a disservice to make men think this is what they should tolerate. The women I’m with seduce me. What a bunch of hooey


Is it hooey to be a decent person and treat someone with some consideration and respect as a partner if you want to have an intimate relationship with them??

I mean that is what she is saying here. No one is saying that in order to have some annual numm-numms on your birthday that you must bring home a dozen roses and diamond necklass every day and that you must reshingle the roof and build a new back patio deck monthly and rub her stinky feet the moment she walks in the door every time she leaves the house. 

But remaining somewhat physically healthy and presentable, being kind and respectful and maintaining a working and functional relationship are reasonable expectations for anyone to be in an intimate relationship. 

If a person cannot do that or is not willing to do that, then in a sense you are correct and that person should NOT be in a relationship. 

I know that is not the point you were trying to make, but it has truth nonetheless. If someone can't be kind and compassionate and respectful to someone and can't be bothered to be present in a relationship with someone, then they should not be in relationships.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Livvie said:


> I think Evinrude58 was right.
> 
> Men shouldn't have to jump through hoops all of their life in order to be intimate with their partner.
> 
> It should be much more of a mutual dynamic with the women putting in just as much work and energy to keep the desire and sex fires burning.


Yes, but the issue is what is jumping through hoops and what is being a decent person in a relationship and treating the other person with kindness, compassion and respect.

What Dr Psych Mom was saying is NOT that men need to be dancing monkeys and bring home boxes of chocolates and bouquets of flowers and give hour long foot rubs every day.

She says maintain a healthy and functional relationship, be present, and not be an asshole.

That should be a reasonable expectation for everyone, men and women alike, to be in a long term relationship.

As I said above, if someone can not or is not willing to do that, they should not be in relationships.


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> Is it hooey to be a decent person and treat someone with some consideration and respect as a partner if you want to have an intimate relationship with them??
> 
> I mean that is what she is saying here. No one is saying that in order to have some annual numm-numms on your birthday that you must bring home a dozen roses and diamond necklass every day and that you must reshingle the roof and build a new back patio deck monthly and rub her stinky feet the moment she walks in the door every time she leaves the house.
> 
> ...


I don’t disagree with you on this at all, I’m not bitter at all either, and I get all the sex I can stand. At this point in reading the thread, I’m not seeing women refute the notion that women get bored and their desire lessens throughout a marriage normally, and that is scary as hell to me. I’m just one person, but can say that hasn’t been my experience and my cheating ex was wanting sex every night up until the night she left. I even asked her about it. My suspicion is thatA lot of women’s hormones may taper off.

this whole premise of men having to work for sex in the relationship is just hard for me to grasp. I’m agreeing that everyone should make an effort to stay in shape, but not to date their wife, you both should want that and not have to make an effort— it should just happen— and the same goes for sex.

I have no trouble finding attractive, decent women. Thar wasn’t always true. I am glad I’m in a place Mentally wheee I don’t feel crushed if a relationship ends for whatever reason.

I can see now that too many men tolerate horribly unfulfilling relationships out of fear they can’t find someone else. With internet communications as they are now……. It’s crazy to think you can’t find someone to be happy with nowadays.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Adding to the above, Dr Psych Mom (DPM) did a joint podcast with our own @dadstartingover (DSO) awhile back and they had a discussion about dead bedrooms and sexual issues in marriages etc and in many ways they made a pretty good team in discussing these issues and working towards solutions and such. 

In a follow up podcast, DPM pointed out the differences in clientele between her work as couple's therapist and what we often see here on open relationship forums and what DSO sees in his work within the Dad Starting Over community. 

The men that we more often see here on TAM and those on SI and that DSO works with within his community are most often the "NICE GUYS" aka the simps and the betas and the guys with poor boundaries and a tendency to be walked on and taken advantage of and manipulated etc. What we see on public relationship forums and red pillesqe websites are disproportionately men in those types of situations. 

What DPM sees most often in her private practice and what makes up the larger percentage in the wild are men that are the opposite. We mostly see the simps and the betas and those with poor boundaries. What is most predominant out in the wild in society are guys that are more self-serving, dismissive, poor communicators, rigid, chasing multiple women etc etc. 

In other words, to use overgeneralized labels, most men in the wild, fall somewhere on the asshole end of the spectrum rather than the simp/beta/"Nice Guy" end of the spectrum. 

We see disproportionate numbers of the simp/beta/"Nice Guys" here and so when people on this site hear that men should actually try to work on a relationship and be somewhat collaborative, people are quick to jump to the Dancing Monkey image.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Evinrude58 said:


> I don’t disagree with you on this at all, I’m not bitter at all either, and I get all the sex I can stand. At this point in reading the thread, I’m not seeing women refute the notion that women get bored and their desire lessens throughout a marriage normally, and that is scary as hell to me. I’m just one person, but can say that hasn’t been my experience and my cheating ex was wanting sex every night up until the night she left. I even asked her about it. My suspicion is thatA lot of women’s hormones may taper off.
> 
> this whole premise of men having to work for sex in the relationship is just hard for me to grasp. I’m agreeing that everyone should make an effort to stay in shape, but not to date their wife, you both should want that and not have to make an effort— it should just happen— and the same goes for sex.
> 
> ...


You and I were posting at the same time. See my post #78 for follow up. 

Most men out in gen pop are more self oriented and rigid and not good communicators and more along the lines of assholish behavior than the spinless behavior that we see here most often. So people in professional practices dealing with couples on the precipice of divorce are most often dealing with men that need to tone it down and be more collaborative rather than a lot of the guys we see here that need to grow a spine and have some boundaries.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I have become a pretty big fan of the Dr Psych Mom podcasts and articles over the last few weeks.
> 
> First my disclaimer: I am in no way affliliated with her material and have no financial interests in her content. I am not even one of her paid subscribers, I only access her free material.
> 
> ...


I'm going to have to check this Dr. out. I can tell you my sex life is fine, but my husband pulled a bait and switch on me (not related to sex, but more personality). I mean a 180 for him. Does the doctor dive into that?


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Rus47 said:


> So wouldn't this mean that all these complaints about "she doesn't initiate" are wasted, unproductive, and perhaps actually making their married sex life worse?
> 
> FWIW, my wife was NEVER "spontaneous desire", even when we were dating.. But very enthusiastically responded to my initiating. Nothing has changed, she has always been and remains "RD". Would imagine if all I had ever done was byche at her that she didn't initiate we likely would have divorced about 5 years in.


I agree. This thread sounds like a pro open marriage post (sorry Oldshirt). Not buying it. If they have no interest, don't get married. If they had interest, then fix it. But never cheat. They were interested at one point. If they weren't, they got married under false pretenses. That happens too much, like all those losers who cheat at bachelorette parties or bachelor parties. If you have to do that, don't get married. I am not taking sloppy seconds from my wife and I am not going to kiss her after she just got junk in her mouth from another guy. And we wonder why many guys don't get married anymore


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

wmn1 said:


> I agree. This thread sounds like a pro open marriage post (sorry Oldshirt). Not buying it. If they have no interest, don't get married. If they had interest, then fix it. But never cheat. They were interested at one point. If they weren't, they got married under false pretenses. That happens too much, like all those losers who cheat at bachelorette parties or bachelor parties. If you have to do that, don't get married. I am not taking sloppy seconds from my wife and I am not going to kiss her after she just got junk in her mouth from another guy. And we wonder why many guys don't get married anymore


No it’s not an open marriage thread at all. Not sure where you’re even getting that.

I’m just relaying that a podcaster that I follow talks a lot about the changing of women’s sex drive and sexual response within long term, monogamous relationships. 

A significant percentage of threads in this Sex In Marriage section deal with waning desire, so I thought it relevant to discuss Dr Psych Mom’s content as that is something that she deals with frequently in her private practice and discusses quite a bit in her podcasts and websites.

If her articles and podcasts that I have seen, she has actually mentioned very little in regards to any kind of open relationships other than to acknowledge that they exist and that some people had done them.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> No it’s not an open marriage thread at all. Not sure where you’re even getting that.
> 
> I’m just relaying that a podcaster that I follow talks a lot about the changing of women’s sex drive and sexual response within long term, monogamous relationships.
> 
> ...


I misread it. Sorry bro


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

GC1234 said:


> I'm going to have to check this Dr. out. I can tell you my sex life is fine, but my husband pulled a bait and switch on me (not related to sex, but more personality). I mean a 180 for him. Does the doctor dive into that?


Not that I have come across specifically.

She talks quite a bit about attachment styles and she also will state that a certain percentage of the population (she says roughly 5% in the general population) have actual personality disorders in which case all bets will be off on the whacky things they will do within a relationship.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Not that I have come across specifically.
> 
> She talks quite a bit about attachment styles and she also will state that a certain percentage of the population (she says roughly 5% in the general population) have actual personality disorders in which case all bets will be off on the whacky things they will do within a relationship.


I believe that, or close to it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Livvie said:


> I disagree with the bait and switch issue. Some women definitely and purposefully do it, to get the kind of lifestyle they want. It's awful.


Her position is that it is not a common, intentional practice and that much of what is being labeled as B&S really isn’t. 

She doesn’t say that women do not marry men to enhance and improve their lifestyle,, I mean isn’t that why any of us marry?

She says there is not some kind of global, female conspiracy to intentionally pretend to be sexually attracted to some guy to get a commitment out of him and then the moment the signature ink on the marriage certificate is dry, she shuts down the sex life. 

She believes much of what is being labeled as B&S is actually the natural attenuation of SD in women in long term relationships/marriage. 

In other words, the vast majority did not do it as an intentional act of deception.

That is not to say that it does not exist in the world.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

snowbum said:


> When men act like assholes women lose interest in sex with said man.


Well, that's not actually true. I would say most women don't want a LTR with an asshole but plenty don't mind taking him for a spin.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Livvie said:


> I think Evinrude58 was right.
> 
> Men shouldn't have to jump through hoops all of their life in order to be intimate with their partner.
> 
> It should be much more of a mutual dynamic with the women putting in just as much work and energy to keep the desire and sex fires burning.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

snowbum said:


> When men act like assholes women lose interest in sex with said man.





ConanHub said:


> Well, that's not actually true. I would say most women don't want a LTR with an asshole but plenty don't mind taking him for a spin.


I think how this can play out is assholes can have a lot of the traits and characteristics that women find sexually attractive so initially they are down with hooking up. 

But as time goes on and that initial NRE starts to fade and their initial sexual desire starts to wear off and now they are left with the assholeish behavior, it can bring about the end to a lot of things.

Probably not too different from men and strippers. A dude may be fine with taking a stripper home a time or two or even have some kind of FB thang for awhile. 

But once that initial thrill wears off, it's not like he's going to bring her home to Mom for Thanksgiving or marry her or anything.


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

If what you say is correct, @oldshirt , and the natural order of things is for women to lose sexual interest in their mates and desire a new relationship, then the presumption of long term marriage as the default may need to go away. Not the "non-monogamy" that another poster referenced, but rather the expectation that serial monogamy may be the norm for some people, especially these women who lose interest in their men. If the couple have a great relationship, then that's fabulous for them, but if what @oldshit and his podcaster say is correct, then we ought not REQUIRE it to be so.

Therefore, if women are expected to lose interest in their men and therefore end the state of bliss of a new relationship, then it seems reasonable that when that relationship changes, which may result in a divorce, then the presumption of long-term commitment in the form of alimony should be expected to be dispensed with as well. (And that's for either sex; I know a number of high-earning women who are paying alimony to ex-husbands.)

As a side note, as much as you said above that women may tire of "assholes" once the initial excitement of sexual interest dies down, I suspect that there are many women who start becoming "assholes" themselves (or shrews/"*****es"/whatever you want to call it) as their loss of sexual interest causes their worst behaviors to manifest themselves.


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## DaringGreatly (7 mo ago)

Numb26 said:


> Bait and switch is definitely a thing.


I agree completely. Before marriage a guy is full of romance and foreplay and cares about the woman enjoying herself and having an orgasm. After he has the ring on you it's bye bye foreplay, romance and female orgasm. But once he starts an affair or gets divorced and has to find a new wife appliance he can suddenly put effort in again. As you said. Bait and switch😉


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

DaringGreatly said:


> I agree completely. Before marriage a guy is full of romance and foreplay and cares about the woman enjoying herself and having an orgasm. After he has the ring on you it's bye bye foreplay, romance and female orgasm. But once he starts an affair or gets divorced and has to find a new wife appliance he can suddenly put effort in again. As you said. Bait and switch😉


Yes, it definitely works both ways.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

This is not going to be a popular observation, and I don't necessarily agree with it, but...

The entire premise of her approach is all the substantiation a man needs to incorporate dread game into his marital dynamic. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## DaringGreatly (7 mo ago)

farsidejunky said:


> This is not going to be a popular observation, and I don't necessarily agree with it, but...
> 
> The entire premise of her approach is all the substantiation a man needs to incorporate dread game into his marital dynamic.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


 Both men and women can use methods of dread but I personally think its a fools game.

Dread is the opposite of trust and trusting your spouse is essential to a healthy long term relationship. If a spouse doesn't want to work on the relationship in an open way then stop wasting everyone's time and leave.

Dread just starts a ticking clock you, might get some short term love bombing or hysterical bonding but the damage done from lack of trust is hard sometimes impossible to repair. 

Also the loss of respect from the person who feels like they had to dread their partner into having sex will take its toll long term.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> This is not going to be a popular observation, and I don't necessarily agree with it, but...
> 
> The entire premise of her approach is all the substantiation a man needs to incorporate dread game into his marital dynamic.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


This is just my personal view and not necessarily that of DPM (she tends to think a lot of red pill tricks are crap) 

I can see dread getting someone to the negotiation table and the MC’s office if their are minor children involved and that person wants to remain married on a fundamental level. 

But is dread sustainable for 40, 50 or 60 years, and would anyone even want to?


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Mybabysgotit said:


> Doesn't make sense then why half of the marriages are sexless because of the men. I just saw a post here, dragonfly, said her husband is the culprit. And me personally, I feel my wife is the one with the higher desire. I know she's not "bored" of me in any way and we are together 20 years. I think it comes down to a respect thing. If a woman truly respects you as a man and leader, you will not be having a sexless marriage, unless a medical problem is involved. Further, most of the times a man is complaining about his LL wife, it's followed by: and I do all the cleaning, raise the kids, rub her toes....blah blah blah. Most women don't respect that crap, and it certainly doesn't turn them on to see their husbands doing the laundry. I know i'll get a lot of flack for this, however, it's something I see with my own eyes daily from these boards.


My wife will not let me do any laundry, I rarely clean the kitchen, she will tell me to go sit in the recliner, she's got this! I do load and unload the dishwasher, she will still say, "Baby, go sit down, I will do that" I have already got it.

She is also a woman that to her, the ultimate would be to stay home and take care of her home and her man. She says she wished she knew which woman started the women in the workplace push, that eventually lead to 2 working parents being necessary to make it, and she would go back in time and bust her upside the head.


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## Longtime Hubby (7 mo ago)

Alls I know is that I have to rev her engine. if I waited for her to initiate, once in past 22 plus years, we‘d never make love. Once her engine is revved up, it’s gold, Jerry, gold!


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Numb26 said:


> Nothing closes a women's legs faster then lose of respect for her man


This.... My wife thought I was afraid to stand alone away from parents. (we were living in their rental at time). Made her agitated and lose respect for me thinking I was afraid to get a loan on house. 

No it was her attitude and periodic comments about "she just needs to leave" . No way in hell am I gonna get a house loan then have her run off and leave me raising 2 kids in house I could barely make payments on after bills.

Sex dropped to ~3x month and I started detaching from her and preparing to divorce. She had an oh crap moment and we discussed it. She realized her errors in judgement and quit saying crap she did not mean.(leaving)

I went and got loan, bought a house. Now we have enthusiastic sex ~5 days a week. I'm 50, she 54. She likes to call me daddy now.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

It is so hard these days for me to remember details from 35 years ago, but I don't feel like my wife's sexual desire for me has dropped since we first became sexual. I know mine hasn't dropped off for her. The roughest point in our relationship was the 6 months or so prior to me proposing to her. We had been together around 18 months at that point. Our issues weren't about sex, but I suspect sex did drop some at that point. I was a real dipshit and I don't doubt she lost some sexual desire for me at that point. However, not enough for it to stick in my mind after all these years. 

Since being married there has been ebb and flow in our frequency and such, but it never died out, not even close. The closest we came was a few years ago when my wife had some medical issues that made sex difficult and effected other aspects of quality of life for her. For some reason she was reluctant to address it, but I helped get her through it. In spite of those issues, she still wanted sex with me. Now all is as good or better. Sex at least every other day is our baseline and we often go much more.

I am skeptical to think that I just lucked into a woman like this. My sample size is really small, so I guess it is possible, but I still find it hard to believe. Outside of the bedroom we truly respect each other, are genuinely interested in each other and simply have a lot of fun together, whenever we can. That seems to carry over very naturally into the bedroom. We are both in agreement that at it's core we are in an intimate sexual relationship. That is fundamentally who we are. We are at an age now that we've even started to discuss what we will do when one of us can't physically have sex anymore. You never know exactly how that will play out, but we agree that we will continue to do whatever we need to to fulfill that other's intimacy and sexual needs however we can. Without involving others of course. We definitely have a plan and are on course for a lifelong monogamous sexual relationship. Maybe we've just done an excellent job of adapting to those changes in sexual dynamics DPM talks about. If that is the case it must just come naturally because I don't feel like I've had to put in a monumental amount of work to keep it this way.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

gr8ful1 said:


> Back to topic…..
> 
> I find her podcasts interesting. She swears like a sailor which I find amusing. Interestingly she thinks **** Tests are not real.


🤨🤣 Wife was gonna do something on the roof one day, I told her she was NOT! She said she was capable and started up the ladder, I grabbed her belt loop and said, "I told you, you are not getting on the roof! Get off the ladder before I pull you off and spank that azz!"

She acted in a huff, as she started toward the door I caught a glimpse of her as she turned to close the house door, she had a smile like the Cheshire cat. 

Daddy asserting his authority/dominance over her gets her motor running.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

snowbum said:


> When men act like assholes women lose interest in sex with said man.


You'd think. But not mostly.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> You and I were posting at the same time. See my post #78 for follow up.
> 
> Most men out in gen pop are more self oriented and rigid and not good communicators and more along the lines of assholish behavior than the spinless behavior that we see here most often. So people in professional practices dealing with couples on the precipice of divorce are most often dealing with men that need to tone it down and be more collaborative rather than a lot of the guys we see here that need to grow a spine and have some boundaries.


But there are a large number of women who spend all their time chasing and groveling at the Dix of those Ahole men. Then they treat the decent guys like crap because they are jaded by the A-hole F-boys.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> You'd think.


Where the crap? Over the years from the things I have seen, the majority of girls, up to certain ages, chase those asshole guys like they are the only show in town.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

I took this thread as a recommendation of a podcast. I've added it to my queue. Once I've had a chance to listen to a few episodes, I might comment.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Divinely Favored said:


> Where the crap? Over the years from the things I have seen, the majority of girls, up to certain ages, chase those asshole guys like they are the only show in town.


As the founding, and only, member of assholes anonymous, I can verify your statement has a lot of truth to it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Divinely Favored said:


> Where the crap? Over the years from the things I have seen, the majority of girls, up to certain ages, chase those asshole guys like they are the only show in town.


From their perspective, they ARE the only game in town.

The majority of men are invisible to most women. They are just drones in the hive and background noise to them. They don’t actually see or acknowledge them.


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

Divinely Favored said:


> My wife will not let me do any laundry, I rarely clean the kitchen, she will tell me to go sit in the recliner, she's got this! I do load and unload the dishwasher, she will still say, "Baby, go sit down, I will do that" I have already got it.
> 
> She is also a woman that to her, the ultimate would be to stay home and take care of her home and her man. She says she wished she knew which woman started the women in the workplace push, that eventually lead to 2 working parents being necessary to make it, and she would go back in time and bust her upside the head.


Funny, my wife says the same thing when I do work around the house. My wife behaves very much like yours, very traditional. I was raised in a traditional household and wanted a SAHM for my kids as I had so it's worked out pretty good.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Mybabysgotit said:


> Funny, my wife says the same thing when I do work around the house. My wife behaves very much like yours, very traditional. I was raised in a traditional household and wanted a SAHM for my kids as I had so it's worked out pretty good.


Yep and because she is the way she is, I go out of my way to do what ever I can to make her feel loved and appreciated. She is not a morning person, so I get up 45 min before I wake her up. I get coffee made and wake her up with gentle rub down from neck, down he back to feet. 
Get her up and put her robe on her and then go get her cup of coffee and put beside couch where she sits.

Just one small example. 

She treats me like her King and I will do my best to make her feel like my Queen.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Divinely Favored said:


> Yep and because she is the way she is, I go out of my way to do what ever I can to make her feel loved and appreciated. She is not a morning person, so I get up 45 min before I wake her up. I get coffee made and wake her up with gentle rub down from neck, down he back to feet.
> Get her up and put her robe on her and then go get her cup of coffee and put beside couch where she sits.
> 
> Just one small example.
> ...


I genuinely swear that you are my twin or something some days, lol.


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## Tuscany (10 mo ago)

Divinely Favored said:


> But there are a large number of women who spend all their time chasing and groveling at the Dix of those Ahole men. Then they treat the decent guys like crap because they are jaded by the A-hole F-boys.


If you're a decent guy, don't go out with women who treat you like crap. Simple. Some women like men who are not what you consider decent, but they are not your problem.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

A lot of this data, along with some other interesting research, is in the book "What Do Women Want?" By Daniel Bergner.

There was also some interesting research about women having trouble with sexual attraction (not love) in long term relationships. We had an interesting thread a few years back on it.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> A lot of this data, along with some other interesting research, is in the book "What Do Women Want?" By Daniel Bergner.
> 
> There was also some interesting research about women having trouble with sexual attraction (not love) in long term relationships. We had an interesting thread a few years back on it.


Yes, it’s difficult for many women to retain sexual attraction over a long period with the same man. It just vanishes. That apparently goes back to a time when relationships had an end date and everyone moved on every few years. It may have worked out well then but not so much now for those women who experience it. Obviously not true for all women but my guess is that it’s true for quite a few.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Openminded said:


> Yes, it’s difficult for many women to retain sexual attraction over a long period with the same man. It just vanishes. That apparently goes back to a time when relationships had an end date and everyone moved on every few years. It may have worked out well then but not so much now for those women who experience it. Obviously not true for all women but my guess is that it’s true for quite a few.


I was fascinated by the phenomenon and it definitely warrants research.

It turns out it's a pretty common occurrence.


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## Tuscany (10 mo ago)

ConanHub said:


> I was fascinated by the phenomenon and it definitely warrants research.
> 
> It turns out it's a pretty common occurrence.


ergo "Lesbian bed death."


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I genuinely swear that you are my twin or something some days, lol.


Had the same thought, and our wife's seem to be close copies too.😁


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Tuscany said:


> If you're a decent guy, don't go out with women who treat you like crap. Simple. Some women like men who are not what you consider decent, but they are not your problem.


That is for sure. I decided long ago I would not be some ole girls concellation prize because she spent her time chasing the assholes. Tell them it is apparent they were after the assholes, because after a while they stink and look like shyt. Have to say "Look here missy, my time is too valuable to waste on the likes of girls like you" 

Had a girl once I liked, buddy just wanted some of her. Think long curly blond southern Belle. Told her what buddy would do, she chose him for a night of fun. Then he hit it and quit it, just like I told her he would do. 🙄She then had the audacity to ask me when we were gonna go out. 🤣 Uhh we ain't! I would not let my dog near you after you were with my buddy.


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## DaringGreatly (7 mo ago)

Divinely Favored said:


> That is for sure. I decided long ago I would not be some ole girls concellation prize because she spent her time chasing the assholes. Tell them it is apparent they were after the assholes, because after a while they stink and look like shyt. Have to say "Look here missy, my time is too valuable to waste on the likes of girls like you"
> 
> Had a girl once I liked, buddy just wanted some of her. Think long curly blond southern Belle. Told her what buddy would do, she chose him for a night of fun. Then he hit it and quit it, just like I told her he would do. 🙄She then had the audacity to ask me when we were gonna go out. 🤣 Uhh we ain't! I would not let my dog near you after you were with my buddy.


So have you only had sex with women you were in love with? If you have ever had casual sex with someone, doesn't that make you some womens consolation prize.?


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

DaringGreatly said:


> So have you only had sex with women you were in love with? If you have ever had casual sex with someone, doesn't that make you some womens consolation prize.?


That is in reference to a relationship. Being the settled for when they could not lock down any of the assholes they wanted. Of course I had several that I was drunk and do not remember. Ones I liked, I found things I really could not get past and checked out of there.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

DaringGreatly said:


> So have you only had sex with women you were in love with? If you have ever had casual sex with someone, doesn't that make you some womens consolation prize.?


Hahaha. When single of course, every woman was my prize. I approached each club night or event like a pirate. The more hot female booty the better.


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## Longtime Hubby (7 mo ago)

A year or so ago, I quit caring whether my wife has an orgasm when we are having fun. She had said it didn’t matter to her if she came. I decided whatever happens happens. Since then, sex improved greatly for both of us. I still try to please her, just don’t care if she has the Big O. “Enjoy the journey,” says she. We do.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Longtime Hubby said:


> A year or so ago, I quit caring whether my wife has an orgasm when we are having fun. She had said it didn’t matter to her if she came. I decided whatever happens happens. Since then, sex improved greatly for both of us. I still try to please her, just don’t care if she has the Big O. “Enjoy the journey,” says she. We do.


I have told my wife that also. It is not her, if I do not climax. I care much more about the journey that the destination.


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## Longtime Hubby (7 mo ago)

Divinely Favored said:


> I have told my wife that also. It is not her, if I do not climax. I care much more about the journey that the destination.


I’m batting about .998. My wife? I’d guess about .300?


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Longtime Hubby said:


> I’m batting about .998. My wife? I’d guess about .300?


I am more like .800 and for last 10 yrs she is at 1.000


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## Longtime Hubby (7 mo ago)

Divinely Favored said:


> I am more like .800 and for last 10 yrs she is at 1.000


Amazing. Very few women bat 1.000


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Longtime Hubby said:


> Amazing. Very few women bat 1.000


Very blessed on both our parts(pun intended) she gets there easily and quickly.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

snowbum said:


> So I don’t know where I fall as I’ve known my husband 30 years, only had sex wiling him, and we go at it at least 4 times a week 50/50 initiation. Cut the crap women hate sex. Women don’t want sex with certain men And maybe they chose poor spouses.


Maybe they chose poor spouses. Maybe they chose good spouses, but something else went wrong. Maybe it was her fault. Maybe it was his. Maybe it was both’s fault. Maybe neither. Maybe 100% biological and not preventable.

Maybe one has an addiction. Maybe one is a victim of sexual abuse. Maybe in a moment or longer of anger and with poor boundaries she or he took risks that led to an affair, and never was able to see the spouse in an attractive light.

Maybe life got stressful and they couldn’t keep their minds healthy enough, got tired and depressed.

Maybe out if ignorance they just accidentally neglected aspects of their relationship that could have kept desire burning.

Maybe one turned out to be selfish and unable to see when their partner really needed a loving response.


There are lots of reasons why a certain woman wouldn’t want sex with a certain man, and vice-a-versa. Lots of reasons why a certain woman wouldn’t want sex with anyone. Same goes for a certain man.

I’m glad your sex life continues to work well. I’d say that leaves you in the set of very fortunate people. You should count your blessings neither of you find the other unattractive for cause or no cause. Be glad neither of you has lost spontaneous desire. Be glad childbirth didn’t damage your nerves or cause depression or hormonal changes and leave you unable to orgasm even on your own for a couple of years, after years of that never being a problem. Be glad you’ve not had to deal with sexual issues that seem insurmountable.


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

Divinely Favored said:


> Yep and because she is the way she is, I go out of my way to do what ever I can to make her feel loved and appreciated. She is not a morning person, so I get up 45 min before I wake her up. I get coffee made and wake her up with gentle rub down from neck, down he back to feet.
> Get her up and put her robe on her and then go get her cup of coffee and put beside couch where she sits.
> 
> Just one small example.
> ...


LOL...my wife is the same way in the mornings. Sometimes I'll go up and play with her and she loves that. And your comment about the journey rather than the destination (sex) has been had by us many times. She used to feel bad if I didn't finish, but over time she started to trust me that I don't really care about that.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Wolfman1968 said:


> If what you say is correct, @oldshirt , and the natural order of things is for women to lose sexual interest in their mates and desire a new relationship, then the presumption of long term marriage as the default may need to go away. Not the "non-monogamy" that another poster referenced, but rather the expectation that serial monogamy may be the norm for some people, especially these women who lose interest in their men. If the couple have a great relationship, then that's fabulous for them, but if what @oldshit and his podcaster say is correct, then we ought not REQUIRE it to be so.


I don’t think so. Even if the “natural order of things“ as described here is correct (and I believe it is), that doesn’t mean it’s all for naught and we should simply accept that that’s what happens and there’s no way around it. I disagree with that entirely.

The natural state of all things is entropy. Thermodynamics is a thing, and left to their natural state, things fall apart.
That doesn’t mean that we simply accept that things fall apart, instead we actively maintain, strengthen and reinvent things, so that they don’t fall apart.
That’s what we do with most human endeavors (if we are competent in any way) and I think the same thing applies to marriages.

The natural tendency may be for women (more quickly than men) to get bored, detach and look for greener/newer pastures - but the answer isn’t to discard the idea of marriage for life, the answer is to not be ****ing boring and complacent.
The solution (which seems to be working for me after 20+ years) is to be attractive, exciting, continually improving and keep her on her toes a bit.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DudeInProgress said:


> The natural state of all things is entropy. Thermodynamics is a thing, and left to their natural state, things fall apart.
> *That doesn’t mean that we simply accept that things fall apart, instead we actively maintain, strengthen and reinvent things, so that they don’t fall apart.
> That’s what we do with most human endeavors (if we are competent in any way) and I think the same thing applies to marriages.*


THIS is exactly how I see it!


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## Longtime Hubby (7 mo ago)

DudeInProgress said:


> I don’t think so. Even if the “natural order of things“ as described here is correct (and I believe it is), that doesn’t mean it’s all for naught and we should simply accept that that’s what happens and there’s no way around it. I disagree with that entirely.
> 
> The natural state of all things is entropy. Thermodynamics is a thing, and left to their natural state, things fall apart.
> That doesn’t mean that we simply accept that things fall apart, instead we actively maintain, strengthen and reinvent things, so that they don’t fall apart.
> ...


Gotta keep courting 'em even after many years of marriage. Gotta bring new ideas to the bedroom. Some work. Some don't. But at least it's new. that's important.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

KindBuddha said:


> So, what Dr. Psych Mom seems to be saying is that when it comes to marital sex in LTRs/marriages, women largely have an external locus of control; that is, they attribute their low libidos to external sources and factors rather than to any deficiencies in themselves. Along with that, she seems to be saying that these low libido women are using alloplastic defenses--that is, they attribute "blame" for their deficient marital sex lives to their husbands or other outside factors, rather than accepting any personal responsibility for the inadequate sex life.
> 
> That's all very well and good and is more than likely a correct take. However, what is not a correct take is to cater to what is basically a narcissistic point of view: the world revolves around the low libido wife, it's up to the husband to "fix" her. That's all wrong from a psychological point of view and will never actually work.
> 
> A better question would be to ask the low libido wife whether her fundamental definition of the marital relationship excludes or includes a meaningful sex life with her husband. Also, why does the low libido wife believe it to be her husband's responsibility to "get her in the mood"? As we all know, women can be very efficacious in pursuing objectives that they actually value. They don't need their husbands to "prompt" them or "encourage" them in seeking objectives that they actually want. So, why does this only apply to marital sex?


I have never heard DPM say any of that. 

I don't really intend to be her spokes person and I don't want to put words in her mouth. If you want to see and hear what she actually says, then you can read her articles and listen to her podcasts for yourself. 

From my own interpretations, I don't know if I have heard here say that the women themselves actually blame anyone or anything and it's not necessarily a case of women stating that they do not want to have a marital sex life,,, it is that within a long term, committed, monogamous relationship, their spontaneous desire very typically becomes very attenuated over time. They do not spontaneously think about sex, yearn for sex, desire sex,,, do not feel horny etc while they are going on about their day. 

That is not the same as saying they are wanting to have a sexless life and do not ever want to have sex with their husbands again. 

There are women who do feel that way about their husbands, but that is a different topic and not the same as the typical wife and mother who has been married for 15, 20 or more years and just simply does not think about or yearn for sex as she is driving home from work in rush hour traffic. 

Per DPM, people who are repulsed by their partner and actively do not want to ever be touched by them and do not want to have a marital sex life, should not be married to them. 

But that is fundamentally different than the typical wife and mother of 15 years that has simply lost her spontaneous desire but can still want to remain with in an intimate relationship and can still respond sexually when aroused and stimulated.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I have never heard DPM say any of that.
> 
> I don't really intend to be her spokes person and I don't want to put words in her mouth. If you want to see and hear what she actually says, then you can read her articles and listen to her podcasts for yourself.
> 
> ...


It does seem, now that it's been mentioned, that a lot if ltr Ws do start of with my H, my kids, my stress from taking care if house, keep me from having sex with H or even "made me" stray.... 

And take no responsibility themselves. Many, not all no, but a lot.

Just an interesting mile high view perspective.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

I found it a bit hard to read the above post, because it all appears inside of the quote box. However I would say that the following things are different. 
- "lazy"
- lack of spontaneous desire
- low libido
- narcissism. 

Don't confuse those. 

I've now had a chance to listen to a few of DPM's podcasts, and I like them.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

DudeInProgress said:


> That’s what we do with most human endeavors (if we are competent in any way) and I think the same thing applies to marriages.


Somehow the “competent” ought to pass on their lore for benefit of those less competent. 



oldshirt said:


> still want to remain with in an intimate relationship and can still respond sexually when aroused and stimulated.


I will only say this has been my experience for nearly all of marriage. My wife readily and enthusiastically responds. It just isnt in her nature to “initiate”. There were times when I returned from work or especially long business trip where I was met at the door by her all dolled up in a revealing outfit with obvious intent, but that wasnt the rule.

That has never been a big deal in my mind. I suppose could have made it a big deal but don’t think that would have made our marriage better. She expected me to be the sexual initiator. She wanted to know that I wanted her. And MY passion drove HER arousal.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

KindBuddha said:


> Sorry, my bad for the formatting confusion. I was trying to respond to oldshirt's post in a more or less sequential manner. I guess I need to figure out how to do it better.
> 
> As far as responding to your post, in this context, "lack of spontaneous desire" is simply a face-saving euphemism for what, in almost any other context, would be correctly characterized as "lazy." However, the difference is when you call someone "lazy," you are clearly assigning them an internal (rather than an external) locus of control. Whereas "lack of spontaneous desire" implies an external locus of control, in the sense that mythical "spontaneous desire" is something that does not consciously originate in the person themselves. It just "happens," an effect without a cause.
> 
> ...


Sexual attraction is a thing. And it’s a critical component of a relationship / marriage. 
If your spouse is sexually attracted to you (and that’s not just physical), they will generally want (or at least not be resistant) to having sex with you.

If your spouse has a “lack of desire“ for you, you need to ask yourself “how sexually desirable am I? Am I as desirable as I could be?”
Because it’s also not your spouses responsibility to manifest desire for someone who isn’t that desirable.
You want your spouse to be more sexually attracted to you and have more desire for you? Make sure you’re maximizing your attractiveness and minimizing your unattractiveness.

Since you can’t control your spouse anyway (at least not directly), you need to focus on what you can control, you.
You can’t make your spouse **** you, but it is your responsibility to make yourself as ****able as possible. And if you do so, your results will generally be positive.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

KindBuddha said:


> Sorry, my bad for the formatting confusion. I was trying to respond to oldshirt's post in a more or less sequential manner. I guess I need to figure out how to do it better.
> 
> As far as responding to your post, in this context, "lack of spontaneous desire" is simply a face-saving euphemism for what, in almost any other context, would be correctly characterized as "lazy." However, the difference is when you call someone "lazy," you are clearly assigning them an internal (rather than an external) locus of control. Whereas "lack of spontaneous desire" implies an external locus of control, in the sense that mythical "spontaneous desire" is something that does not consciously originate in the person themselves. It just "happens," an effect without a cause.
> 
> ...


Even though you have only had this account for a few days, I can tell that you are a thinker and an analyzer and you organize your thoughts well to state your position. I like that! 

But getting on to your point - It's kind of challenging for me and I have to choose my words carefully because I have my own thoughts and experiences and perspectives,,, however I created the thread in order to share what Dr Psych Mom discusses frequently, but at the same time I do not want to misquote her or confuse the topic even more because I am randomly throwing in my own $.02 for which I usually overcharge. 

DPM *DOES* address much of what you are saying in her articles and podcasts. Without going back and rereading a dozen articles or going back to listen to hours of podcasts again to respond to you with direct quotes, I will very generally sum up what I have interpreted what she has said in my own verbiage and dialect - 

Spontaneous is that baseline innate horniness and yearning where your body and your soul just want get nekkid and get down with the other regardless of what is going on around you. Men typically feel that basically 24/7 until they die and it doesn't matter if they are living under a bridge or they are dying of cancer or the muffler is falling off of the car or whatever. They were turn down an opportunity to have sex if the house is on fire or if someone is choking or bleeding to death. Otherwise they are good to go and generally will be good to go once the fire dept has the flames knocked down or the paramedics have taken care of the bleeding and airway issues. 

Young, fertile women that have not had children yet can feel that similarly when they meet some hot guy that they think is all that. They can feel that innate burning desire and yearning in the opening days of hooking up with Mr Hot. 

However once she and Mr Hot have been in a committed, exclusive relationship for a couple years and the NRE has died down and especially once kids have arrived and now they are paying on the mortgage and car loans and the shingles have blown off in the storm and need repairs etc - her level of that innate, burning desire and baseline yearning for sex fades quickly and often significantly. Now she does not "Feel" horny, she does not yearn for sex, she does not crave sexual contact and orgasm etc etc while she goes about her daily business. She may have a bump during ovulation when Mother Nature wants her to have another offspring in case the next drought, plague or famine kills off the children she has now, but her normal, daily baseline is basically one of asexuality. 

It's not due to laziness or problems in the relationship or mental illness or lack of due diligence or good faith in maintaining a healthy marriage and relationship - it is just simply part of her biology and nature. 

However in a healthy, fertile woman in a functional relationship with a decent man, she did not lose her sexuality, it shifted from that of the initial SD to more of RD. She is still capable of responding sexually and may in fact even respond with vigor and gusto if placed in the right environment and provided for with the right seduction and engagement and stimulation etc. 

So I am generalizing and paraphrasing in my own words what DPM says about this - If she understands the value of marital sexuality to her mate and wants to maintain a healthy, happy relationship, and if she is fundamentally attracted to her mate and likes him and is comfortable with him,, And when she does engage in sex, it is good for her and pleasurable for her,, she will be open and accommodating to his advances and with his advances and stimulation and foreplay etc she will respond and become aroused and engaged and a good time can be had by all. 

So in essence, she does need to at least put in the effort to be open to the idea and be aware that she may not be horny at 5:45 pm when he first gives her wink, but if she can at least try to not worry about the clothes sitting in the dryer and be open to the idea of him touching her and kissing her and holding her etc until she does start to become aroused and let her mind shift from the dishwasher that needs to be emptied and allow herself to be pleasured, the desire and arousal will follow. 
Where people end up in DPM's couples therapy office is when there is a breakdown in that chain of events to where she does NOT allow herself to be distracted from the dishwasher or when the relationship is having organic issues or the H is doing something that is a complete turn off to her etc and she does not allow herself to become aroused. 

END OF DPM INTERPRETATION. THE FOLLOWING WILL BE MY OWN THOUGHTS AND OPINIONS -

So getting back to YOUR question on shouldn't SHE be the one to address her lower libido - It's kind of like when women want men to be responsible for LOWERING theirs. That is like women telling men that they need to worry more about the dishes in the dishwasher and the clothes in the dryer and not be so horny and interested in sex all the time. 

It's asking someone to take responsibility for changing their basic nature and hardwiring. 

Does that kind of place the burden on men for getting their women into the mood for having sex with them?? Well yeah, but that is just another one of the things men are generally responsible for. Men are responsible for building pyramids and jumping out of airplanes behind enemy line in the middle of night and running into burning buildings and such. 

If a guy wants to have sex with one woman on a long term basis, he's going to have to come up with a little initiative and be a bit proactive. 

If he wants to be passive and be with someone that is always horny and always ready to go at a moment's notice and will take the initiative all the time, then he's going to have to turn gay and get with dudes.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DudeInProgress said:


> Sexual attraction is a thing. And it’s a critical component of a relationship / marriage.
> If your spouse is sexually attracted to you (and that’s not just physical), they will generally want (or at least not be resistant) to having sex with you.
> 
> If your spouse has a “lack of desire“ for you, you need to ask yourself “how sexually desirable am I? Am I as desirable as I could be?”
> ...


Attraction and desirability of the partner obviously plays a large role. If some guy gets all fat and slovenly and gets bad breath and BO etc, obviously his mate's desire for him is going to be negatively impacted. 

I used to believe that a lot of these issues were largely attraction based,,,, but now I'm not so sure. Now I am wondering if our grandparents were right all along and that this is simply what happens to couples after 20some years of marriage. 

Case in point, Tom Brady is getting kicked out of the house. Has Tom Brady gotten fat and slovenly? Is he not making enough money or have high enough social status? Is he a beta? 

When Gisele has made public comments about the marital break down, it's all the same ol' chit - He doesn't do enough around the house. He doesn't help with the kids. He's gone every Sunday. When he gets home Monday or Tuesday he lays around with ice packs and popping ibuprofen and doesn't do much. 

It's all the same old stuff. He might as well be the plummer that lives across the street, because his looks, his fitness, his fame and fortune and status certainly has not kept him from meeting the same fate as 21,894,429 other men over the last few decades. 

Now whether he's banging NFL cheerleaders and other fitness models left and right lately I do not know (I think if he was it would be on the cover of every tabloid in America) but I'm willing to bet he has had a pretty dead bedroom at home over the last few years like millions of other people) 

So yes, attraction obviously plays a big role. But if Tom Brady has only gotten a few unenthusiastic handjobs over the last couple years, that means there is more to all of this than guys getting fat and slovenly.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> Attraction and desirability of the partner obviously plays a large role. If some guy gets all fat and slovenly and gets bad breath and BO etc, obviously his mate's desire for him is going to be negatively impacted.
> 
> I used to believe that a lot of these issues were largely attraction based,,,, but now I'm not so sure. Now I am wondering if our grandparents were right all along and that this is simply what happens to couples after 20some years of marriage.
> 
> ...


True, but attractiveness is just as much about non-physical as well. 
If a man doesn’t know how to effectively flirt and play with his wife, keep things exciting and keep her on her toes, he’s going to be in trouble. If he’s not leading his marriage dynamic proactively and deliberately, he’s going to be in trouble. If he’s not giving her some emotional roller coaster excitement now and then, he’s going to be in trouble.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DudeInProgress said:


> True, but attractiveness is just as much about non-physical as well.
> If a man doesn’t know how to effectively flirt and play with his wife, keep things exciting and keep her on her toes, he’s going to be in trouble. If he’s not leading his marriage dynamic proactively and deliberately, he’s going to be in trouble. If he’s not giving her some emotional roller coaster excitement now and then, he’s going to be in trouble.


Here's a quote by Richard Cooper that is harsh and politically incorrect, but probably more truth than any of us care to admit. I may have a word or two out of place but the meaning is the same -

"If a woman think you are her best option you can use and abuse her, screw other chicks and fck her sister. But what you can never do is bore her."


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

KindBuddha said:


> I don't disagree. However, (since you quoted my post), you didn't address "spontaneous desire." If the issue is that "spontaneous desire" is missing, then logically speaking, how is it ever my responsibility if my spouse doesn't have it?
> 
> It's "spontaneous." By definition, nothing that I do, or that I don't do, causes it to be present, or causes it to be absent. That's literally what "spontaneous" means. It is an effect without a cause.
> 
> ...


Because the attractiveness and desirability of the husband may not have anything to do with her attenuation of spontaneous desire over time. 

He may be built like a greek god and look like a Calvin Klein underwear model and may rule the kingdom,,,,, but after 5, 10, 15, 20 years and a few kids her level of spontaneous desire may still tank regardless. 

Her decline in spontaneous desire may be completely independent of his attractiveness as a man. 

And I'm not sure it is accurate to assume or assert that the woman(s) is going to blame her loss of SD on not finding the man attractive. 

In fact if you read through countless threads and posts here or on the low libido forum on Reddit, you will see many stating that they do find their husbands attractive and that they are objectively handsome men. ........ but they have lost their SD for them anyway. 

I'm going to go back to some things DPM has said but which I do agree with based on my own observations and experiences - When women are young and single and childless and are in their early-mid 20s and are getting all dolled up and going out hitting the clubs dancing and drinking and partying it up and having men fight over them peacock for them and Mother Nature and their bodies are screaming at them to reproduce and raise vigorous offspring and they are in head-to-head competition with all the other young, pretty girls for the strongest guys,, they are probably just as horny as any guy. When they are ovulating, maybe even more. 

When she brings that hot guy home, she will tear into him like a wildcat, ride him like a stolen horse, swallow his junk, take him up the backside and basically use and abuse him until he is just an amorphous blob of protoplasm on the floor. 

But within a few years after they are married and monogamous and have kids they are chasing around and trying to keep up on the mortgage and cleaning up puke and diapers etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etce etc etc and the NRE has worn off and that initial rush of hormone fueled baseline level of horniness and sexual adventurism has worn off, She shifts over from SD to RD. 

I'll switch from referencing Dr Psych Mom to the other great oracle of relationship wisdom that has mentored me, and that is my mom. The way OldMomshirt used to describe it when I was coming of age and starting to discover the world is when a woman is young and single and without children, Mother Nature and her own body make her horny. After she is married and settled down and has kids to raise, a man has to make her horny. 

That was 40some years ago from a very conservative, midwestern school marm, but it's probably just as accurate as anything.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

KindBuddha said:


> Fine. How exactly did your Dad make your old Mom horny, oldshirt? Details please. Give us the magic formula.


Eeeww gross! I dunno and I don't wanna know 

But I will say they were married 66 years until they died a couple months apart while bunking together in the same room in the nursing home during their final days, so whatever it was, it must've worked.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

KindBuddha said:


> I don't disagree. However, (since you quoted my post), you didn't address "spontaneous desire." If the issue is that "spontaneous desire" is missing, then logically speaking, how is it ever my responsibility if my spouse doesn't have it?
> 
> It's "spontaneous." By definition, nothing that I do, or that I don't do, causes it to be present, or causes it to be absent. That's literally what "spontaneous" means. It is an effect without a cause.
> 
> ...


I guess I don’t really understand what you mean by “spontaneous desire.“
It may be some thing that I’ve just never thought enough about as to how it fits into the equation. So please feel free to enlighten me or correct me if I’m off base on my perception here.

if “spontaneous desire“ means she has an innate horniness for you most of the time and can’t wait to jump your bones on her own initiative, I think that’s the wrong thing to be focused on.

Women’s desire/horniness is cyclical, at least to a much greater degree than men’s. Women are also much more reactive in their desire then proactive.
Meaning that your wife is not likely to be constantly bristling with horniness for you most of the time, and that’s OK.

My expectation for marriage is that my wife is sexually attracted to me and desires me as a man. I expect her to want a sexually intimate relationship with me.
I don’t expect her to be brimming with sexual desire for me spontaneously most of the time, nor do I expect her to constantly initiate.

I do expect her to be receptive (most of the time) and enthusiastically participate when I initiate.
In our case, my wife does initiate fairly regularly (which is great), but I really don’t think it would be a huge issue if she didn’t. As long as she was an enthusiastic participant when I initiated.

So perhaps I simply don’t understand what you mean by “spontaneous desire.”
We hear guys on here sometimes complaining about their wife not initiating enough, or not having the same level of raw horniness that he does, etc.
Basically, that she’s not mirroring his sexual dynamics, and getting upset and butthurt about female sexual dynamics, instead of understanding them and working within those dynamics to create optimal outcomes.
And they often get upset when they’re told that her desire is more responsive than his, and that he actually needs to put in some effort to inspire and activate that desire.
Which I always find kind of artistic and counterproductive.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

KindBuddha said:


> You don't like that analogy?


I think it's a great analogy! If I only ever exercised when I "felt like it", I'd never exercise. 
So, like you say, I have to take steps. 

In the case of jogging, the steps include jogging when I don't feel like it. But also, knowing that once I get going, I'll probably start to enjoy it. (That's true for _me_, anyway). 
In the case of sex, the analogy isn't perfect. The "responsive desire" person has responsibilities, primarily to recognise the situation, learn about it, and communicate with their partner. 



> "Spontaneous desire" is a crock, a face-saving concept to excuse people from personal responsibility.


I don't agree with that. Responsive desire (the opposite of spontaneous) has been demonstrated in studies, in both men and women. It doesn't absolve the person of their responsibilities at all! 



> Sexual desire is never spontaneous.


It isn't?? I think I experience spontaneous desire, and did even more so 50 years ago! 



> Therefore, not having sex due to an absence of "spontaneous desire" means you will never have sex.


Agreed, that would be a terrible mistake. The couple need to figure out how they're going to have sex. Both will need to cooperate. For the "responsive desire" person just to shrug their shoulders and refuse to co-operate would be very wrong, which I'm guessing might be the point you're making. The RD partner has to say "please warm me up", not "go away". 



> So why is it my responsibility to "fix" my spouse's lack of desire, motivation, call it what you will, when it comes to sex?


It's your responsibility (in this hypothetical scenario; I'm not telling you what to do) to arouse your spouse, because you're the only one who can. It's your spouses responsibility to allow and encourage that (and explain what would help). In my opinion. If EITHER party starts getting all butthurt about it, then it's game over.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

DudeInProgress said:


> So perhaps I simply don’t understand what you mean by “spontaneous desire.”


The classic paper on it is https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...262300278641&usg=AOvVaw3Pz3Pr-xKw9HrbGxb7Vsg5


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

KindBuddha said:


> This is an excellent paper which I just read and was not previously aware of. Of note, nowhere in this seminal research paper was it stated that HSDD (Hypoactive sexual desire disorder) or FSAD (Female Sexual Arousal Disorder) was something "caused by" anything done or not done by the woman's partner. Nor was there any suggestion that the woman's partner was primarily responsible for "curing" the problem on the woman's behalf.


1. OK, if your wife actually has a clinical disorder, there may not be much you can do to inspire and elicit her sexual desire for you.
In that case, she’s simply broken and there may be nothing you can do about it, and you should probably move on and find someone less broken.

But we’re really not talking about that are we? Because that’s probably not the case.
The reality is that it’s much more likely that your wife is not pathological, and that the problem is (at least in part) you.
Or at the very least, there’s more you could be doing that would likely improve (if not completely solve) the sexual dynamic in your marriage.

2. Why are you so worried about who’s fault it is and who should bear the responsibility? Do you want to be right, or do you want to be effective, successful and happy?

You can shake your fist at the heavens and curse the unfairness of reality and human intersexual dynamics, or you can except reality and learn to thrive in it.
You can argue about her responsibility to build and strengthen her own desire for you on her own, or you can accept female sexual psychology and intersexual dynamics for what it is, and take ownership for leading your marriage and maximizing your outcomes.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

KindBuddha said:


> Laurentium,
> 
> Did you actually read the research paper you linked to in another post? Where does it suggest that the spouse's partner is responsible to "arouse your spouse, because you're the only who can." I mean, that's obviously an untrue statement anyway. Women, as well as men, can use toys; pornography; fantasies; and substances such as alcohol or marijuana to try to get themselves "in the mood." Can, and frequently do just that--when it suits them. Often, they choose to arouse themselves with men other than their spouses. Yes, it's a choice.


even with those things still being aroused by an outside force and aren’t walking around all horny looking for poon like a man.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

KindBuddha said:


> Laurentium,
> 
> Did you actually read the research paper you linked to in another post? Where does it suggest that the spouse's partner is responsible to "arouse your spouse, because you're the only who can." I mean, that's obviously an untrue statement anyway. Women, as well as men, can use toys; pornography; fantasies; and substances such as alcohol or marijuana to try to get themselves "in the mood." Can, and frequently do just that--when it suits them. Often, they choose to arouse themselves with men other than their spouses. Yes, it's a choice.


And at the end of the day, you are responsible for your life and your marriage, and for ensuring that they are fulfilling to you.

The only thing you can ultimately control, is you.
And you have only 3 functional options in this scenario.
1. Whine and complain that your spouse isn’t doing enough to stoke their own desire for you, and suffer stupidly in an unsatisfying marriage.
2. Leave your unsatisfying marriage in search of a better partner. 
Good luck with that, because these patterns often repeat themselves. Hmmm. 
But it’s better than option 1.
3. Stop worrying about how the universe, and your wife’s desire mechanisms “should“ operate, and just take ownership for optimizing everything within your control you to inspire the desired (if need be responsive) desire from your wife, so that you can have a sexually fulfilling marriage. 
And if that still doesn’t work (but it often will), then you still have option 2.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

KindBuddha said:


> This is an excellent paper which I just read and was not previously aware of. Of note, nowhere in this seminal research paper was it stated that HSDD (Hypoactive sexual desire disorder) or FSAD (Female Sexual Arousal Disorder) was something "caused by" anything done or not done by the woman's partner. Nor was there any suggestion that the woman's partner was primarily responsible for "curing" the problem on the woman's behalf.


I haven’t read the article yet.

however I think a distinction does need to be made between a normal variation in sexual desire over the course of one’s life cycle vs some kind of actual disorder.

a 40 year old woman with 3 kids that’s been married for 15 that is not horny when she’s scrubbing the toilet during the day but is fully functioning sexually that night after her husband has taken her out for a nice sit down dinner and had some good interpersonal conversations and flirtation and seduction with her and gave her a good massage oil back rub and foot rub after they got home is not diseased or disordered. She is just operating on a different operating system than she did when she was 25.

someone who cannot become aroused or function sexually no matter the circumstances, environment or the best efforts of George Clooney and Chris Hemsworth is disordered.

as the first case is not a disease or disorder but a natural variation with age and lifestyle, it was not caused by anyone, nor can it be fixed by anyone. It is simply a natural state of being due to age, relationship status, child rearing etc etc


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

KindBuddha said:


> For most low libido wives, the strategy of buying them a nice probably very high calorie sit down dinner is counter productive. They are probably either already overweight if not obese; or if they are in great shape, they are not going to want to stuff their faces at dinner. If they do, they'll blame you for buying them a fattening dinner to try and shame you for being transactional and expecting sex in exchange for the dinner. At least that's the typical dynamic.
> 
> I think you're confusing a normal marriage where the partners enjoy spending time together doing fun things like going out to dinner, and having sex with each other--with a low libido wife situation where the husband thinks he has to bargain for sex but nothing ever works. Surely when you take your wife out to dinner you're not doing it so she'll have sex in exchange for it.
> 
> Are you?


Again distinctions need to be made. 

It is normal and common for women's spontaneous desire to decline in a long term, monogamous relationship after the NRE has worn off and normal daily life and bills and kids and daily living set in. That probably happens to one degree or another in almost all long term marriages. 

Then there are couples where there is some kind of break down or dysfunction. 

There is a difference between women who are not horny while they are going through their normal, busy day and women who do not like their partners or do not want to have any kind of sexual interaction with them regardless of the environment or situation. 

One requires some understanding of the female operating system and nomenclature as well as some reasonable accommodations and actions to support their sexual response. 

The other requires marital counseling or sex therapy and possibly divorce. 

Wisdom is being able to differentiate between the two.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

KindBuddha said:


> This is an excellent paper which I just read and was not previously aware of. Of note, nowhere in this seminal research paper was it stated that HSDD (Hypoactive sexual desire disorder) or FSAD (Female Sexual Arousal Disorder) was something "caused by" anything done or not done by the woman's partner. Nor was there any suggestion that the woman's partner was primarily responsible for "curing" the problem on the woman's behalf.


Yes, I think that's all true. 


KindBuddha said:


> Where does it suggest that the spouse's partner is responsible to "arouse your spouse, because you're the only who can."


Perhaps I worded that badly, then. I wouldn't say the partner of the RD spouse is _"responsible"_. I don't see how that helps. I'd say, you want sex, here's what you can do to help that happen. I'd be against the RD spouse (or anyone) talking about whose fault it is. Discussion of fault generally makes the sexual situation worse.

In actually working with such a couple, one of many things I'd be looking at is the SD partner's fears. That his partner actually doesn't find him attractive. Or that she's previously had sex with someone who was better at it than him. Or that not only does she not feel spontaneous desire, she doesn't _want_ to, she feels some hostility or contempt towards him for some reason. Any or all of these things could be true; or not. These fears can be hard for someone to speak.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

KindBuddha said:


> I think you're confusing a normal marriage where the partners enjoy spending time together doing fun things like going out to dinner, and having sex with each other--with a low libido wife situation


I just want to say again, low libido and responsive desire are NOT the same thing. Plenty of responsive desire people are very into sex, once triggered.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Laurentium said:


> I just want to say again, low libido and responsive desire are NOT the same thing. Plenty of responsive desire people are very into sex, once triggered.


I’m just quoting this for emphasis.

transitioning from SD to RD is not the same as any kind of sexual dysfunction or asexuality or lack of attraction for partner or not being fully functional and engaged when sex does occur.

it is a different pathway to get there and a different launch sequence.

it’s like if you need to go from your house to downtown.

SD is like an Uber pulling up to your door all warmed up with the engine running and a full tank of gas.

RD is like taking you own car where you have to go to the garage, open the garage door, put the key in the ignition, turn it on, put it in gear, back out of the garage into the street, put it in drive, go to the neighborhood gas station, put gas in it etc etc

once you do all that and get on the road, the actual ride is pretty much the same… other than now you are behind the wheel instead of being taken for a ride.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> Because the attractiveness and desirability of the husband may not have anything to do with her attenuation of spontaneous desire over time.
> ...
> In fact if you read through countless threads and posts here or on the low libido forum on Reddit, you will see many stating that they do find their husbands attractive and that they are objectively handsome men. ........ but they have lost their SD for them anyway.
> 
> ...


It has been well-established that most women eventually lose SD desire in a LTR, and many even seem to lose RD. Yet, bring in an attractive new man, and SD reappears! It works for men to some degree as well. Another perspective on this is called The Coolidge Effect (google it). I think that this waning desire for a spouse is one (of many) trigger for affairs.

This is something that I think swingers subconsciously realize: that having sex with other people keeps the SD alive long term, and that SD carries over into their own relationship, and even that RD is much easier to achieve. Most swingers have good sex lives, and even if they stop (as most do after a number of years), their activity has at least delayed the onset of the dead bedroom. I also think that the longer you have had a regular and satisfying sex life, the more likely it is that the couple will want to continue that, even if it requires intentional effort.

Obviously, most people won't even entertain the idea, but it actually does work for many who do. It certainly kept our sex life exciting for many, many years, and now that we're in our 60s (and no longer swinging), we have established a pattern - perhaps a habit - of having good and frequent sex, and we both want to continue that as long as possible.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Married but Happy said:


> It has been well-established that most women eventually lose SD desire in a LTR, and many even seem to lose RD. Yet, bring in an attractive new man, and SD reappears! It works for men to some degree as well. Another perspective on this is called The Coolidge Effect (google it). I think that this waning desire for a spouse is one (of many) trigger for affairs.
> 
> This is something that I think swingers subconsciously realize: that having sex with other people keeps the SD alive long term, and that SD carries over into their own relationship, and even that RD is much easier to achieve. Most swingers have good sex lives, and even if they stop (as most do after a number of years), their activity has at least delayed the onset of the dead bedroom. I also think that the longer you have had a regular and satisfying sex life, the more likely it is that the couple will want to continue that, even if it requires intentional effort.
> 
> Obviously, most people won't even entertain the idea, but it actually does work for many who do. It certainly kept our sex life exciting for many, many years, and now that we're in our 60s (and no longer swinging), we have established a pattern - perhaps a habit - of having good and frequent sex, and we both want to continue that as long as possible.


Most people don’t entertain the idea because it destroys the vast majority of couples who try it, anecdotally I bet greater than 90%.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> It has been well-established that most women eventually lose SD desire in a LTR, and many even seem to lose RD. Yet, bring in an attractive new man, and SD reappears! It works for men to some degree as well. Another perspective on this is called The Coolidge Effect (google it). I think that this waning desire for a spouse is one (of many) trigger for affairs.
> 
> This is something that I think swingers subconsciously realize: that having sex with other people keeps the SD alive long term, and that SD carries over into their own relationship, and even that RD is much easier to achieve. Most swingers have good sex lives, and even if they stop (as most do after a number of years), their activity has at least delayed the onset of the dead bedroom. I also think that the longer you have had a regular and satisfying sex life, the more likely it is that the couple will want to continue that, even if it requires intentional effort.
> 
> Obviously, most people won't even entertain the idea, but it actually does work for many who do. It certainly kept our sex life exciting for many, many years, and now that we're in our 60s (and no longer swinging), we have established a pattern - perhaps a habit - of having good and frequent sex, and we both want to continue that as long as possible.


Dr Psych Mom does frequently mention that the introduction of a potential new suitor will bring back SD (sometimes with a vengeance)

and she does mention that some couples do pursue swinging/open marriage/poly as a means of maintaining a high level of SD over time.

However I have not seen her actually delve into that aspect to any degree and have not come across any of her podcasts or articles that get into any depth about that.

All I have heard her say about it is some couples do engage in nonmonogamy and that it does keep the SD levels high and that that does work for some couples and not for others.

that’s really all I have heard her say about nonmonogamy.

Now in my own opinion and what I have seen and experienced, the danger in affairs is if a woman feels like she has lost all attraction and desire for her H and thinks it’s because the marriage has turned sour and she has a big hormone rush for Sven From Yoga and feels like a horny school girl again, if she doesn’t understand her own responses, she can blow up her home and family for a guy with a cute butt in yoga pants but no actual substance in a new relationship and no actual structural problems in the marriage.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

DudeInProgress said:


> Most people don’t entertain the idea because it destroys the vast majority of couples who try it, anecdotally I bet greater than 90%.


All the statistics from studies on swingers completely contradicts your thinking. I've met thousands of swingers, and known many for well over a decade. All but a few are still in great marriages, but since the ones I know well are all now in their 60s, I don't think any are still swinging.

Most people don't entertain swinging not because if destroys relationships (it doesn't, but many believe so), but because they are indoctrinated into the socially mainstream idea of monogamy, even when it doesn't work. Whatever. I'm not trying to convince anyone to try swinging, but I do try to dispel myths and misconceptions in favor of facts.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

KindBuddha said:


> What studies? Any links? (I'm not going to ask you to substantiate how you know the relationship status and marital quality of "thousands" of swinger couples, or even the "many" you claim to have known for "well over a decade," since this is such an obviously grandiose statement of certitude on your part, and seems so unlikely that you would have intimate knowledge about other peoples' relationships beyond perhaps a few of your very closest friends, that if it indicates anything, it confirms that many people in the "lifestyle," and specifically men who coerce their women into it, tend to be extremely narcissistic personalities.)


The studies I read were from 10 to 20 years ago, and I didn't save the links. I said I MET thousands of happy swingers, but I only know well about 100, and remain friends with about a dozen couples. We still reminisce about some of our experiences and talk about some of the other couples we knew, so I know secondhand about a couple dozen more.

You are also badly mistaken about men coercing the women into swinging. Almost all of the couples with whom I'm familiar had the women propose it or they were equally enthusiastic. Your views are either badly misinformed or biased. Yes, some men do try to coerce their wives - they don't last long in the lifestyle, and if it's known, they are usually shunned.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Married but Happy said:


> All the statistics from studies on swingers completely contradicts your thinking. I've met thousands of swingers, and known many for well over a decade. All but a few are still in great marriages, but since the ones I know well are all now in their 60s, I don't think any are still swinging.
> 
> Most people don't entertain swinging not because if destroys relationships (it doesn't, but many believe so), but because they are indoctrinated into the socially mainstream idea of monogamy, even when it doesn't work. Whatever. I'm not trying to convince anyone to try swinging, but I do try to dispel myths and misconceptions in favor of facts.


Sorry, I don’t have a lot of confidence in the self-reported statistics from swingers about how great their lifestyle is.

Look at almost every single instance on this forum and it paints a very disastrous picture. Granted, folks often come here because they have problems, or at least sub optimal scenarios, but I think it is sound conventional wisdom that swinging is extremely problematic and destructive for most couples.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

DudeInProgress said:


> Sorry, I don’t have a lot of confidence in the self-reported statistics from swingers about how great their lifestyle is.
> 
> Look at almost every single instance on this forum and it paints a very disastrous picture. Granted, folks often come here because they have problems, or at least sub optimal scenarios, but I think it is sound conventional wisdom that swinging is extremely problematic and destructive for most couples.


I don't either. However, there are plenty of peer-reviewed studies published that confirm what I've said. And yes, I've lived it as well as read the research. You can do you own research if it matters to you, but your conventional wisdom is actually conventional bias.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DudeInProgress said:


> Sorry, I don’t have a lot of confidence in the self-reported statistics from swingers about how great their lifestyle is.
> 
> Look at almost every single instance on this forum and it paints a very disastrous picture. Granted, folks often come here because they have problems, or at least sub optimal scenarios, but I think it is sound conventional wisdom that swinging is extremely problematic and destructive for most couples.


well yeah, people that write in here are writing about their problems and they’ll blame on whatever they can.

swinging is a very private and discreet activity. People that are having a good ol’ time and not having any problems are not going to write to a conservative, tradition marriage forum and blab about it.

so yes, the stuff you see and read about here will be problematic.

what you won’t see represented much here are the millions of couples that have indulged in swinging/open marriage/poly and it’s been fine.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> well yeah, people that write in here are writing about their problems and they’ll blame on whatever they can.
> 
> swinging is a very private and discreet activity. People that are having a good ol’ time and not having any problems are not going to write to a conservative, tradition marriage forum and blab about it.
> 
> ...


I’m sure it works out great for a small minority of folks. And that’s fine.
But the idea that it would be a viable option for the average couple is ridiculous. The majority are not going to fare well. 
I think it’s a net negative, and I believe it harms far more marriages than it helps.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> even with those things still being aroused by an outside force and aren’t walking around all horny looking for poon like a man.


Yeah. Even young, I would call it more "driven" than "horny" for most women. Driven for attention, driven for affection, driven to compete, driven for excitement in general. If a lot of women were horny in the same sense a lot of men are and as consistently, like a lot of men, they would not be nearly as choosy about their partners. (Of course, thankfully, different women do think different types of men are doable, contrary to popular incel theory.) A lot of attractiveness for women (and probably for at least some men as well) is being attracted to the way a guy interacts with you. For some, that's outgoing, for some it's teasing and funny, for some it's charm, for rare ones (but I knew one) it's quiet. 

The horniest woman I knew (and I knew her well) was primarily driven by being a narcissist (diagnosed professionally) and always hungry for attention and admiration. But then she was bipolar and hypersexual at times and definitely out for ****. And she wasn't that picky, except she was the only "size queen" I have ever known in my 70 years on earth. 

I do think a lot of women fall on the "responsive" side, but that does not mean they are responsive if they are already turned off of a guy or have issues with him. They're not that desperate for sex as a rule. But if the stars are aligned, a lot of them are responsive to the same assets they fell for if those are still deployable. A lot of women hold on, after the relationship has gone to hell, to "how he used to be" when they first met. It's sad.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DudeInProgress said:


> I’m sure it works out great for a small minority of folks. And that’s fine.
> But the idea that it would be a viable option for the average couple is ridiculous. The majority are not going to fare well.
> I think it’s a net negative, and I believe it harms far more marriages than it helps.


It’s not to “help” marriages,, or at least not marriages having problems.

I agree it’s not for the masses or even the average couple.

most people simply do not want to.

it’s something that only people with a high degree of communication, respect, compassion and a healthy robust sex life to begin with should even consider.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I would add that even though when it comes down to time to seduce, a lot of women wait for men to make that move, most women I knew young were very proactive about meeting the man to begin with. A lot of positioning and planning to be in the same place, etc. , and unfortunately, a lot of hyenas doing it the easy way and trying to steal men from their friends. But there are reasons a lot of them aren't comfortable making the first sexual move. In my circle, a woman might ask if a man was going to such and such gig or party to give him the opportunity to show up if he was interested, but not ask him out. If you asked guys out and were that bold, back then it would often get the man off on the wrong foot thinking you were a ho and that this was going to be guaranteed sex date. But that's not the end goal for most young women I knew, who were looking for someone fun and attractive and attentive in other ways.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

KindBuddha said:


> "Very private and discreet activity" = the people who engage in this activity apparently feel a lot of shame about it and have to hide their involvement in it except from others who also participate in it. (Or talk about it anonymously on internet forums perhaps.) If it's such a great activity, why all the shame surrounding it among its participants?
> 
> Do swingers tell their own kids and other close relatives what they are up to? It it's a net positive activity, not a shameful one, why hide it from those nearest and dearest to you?
> 
> ...


if you would like to start your own thread to discuss your views on swinging, you are welcome to do so.

I would offer my perspectives and experiences on that thread if you want.

but that is not the topic of this thread.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

KindBuddha said:


> Well just poking around the internet, there appear to be some studies in North America which indicate about 4% of couples have tried CNM consensual non monogamy, but that seems to be including anyone who has ever tried it, even once--i.e. they had a college threesome once. What's unclear is how many married couples which started out as monogamous engaged in swinging regularly and as a long-term lifestyle. Presumably those who may have only tried it a few times or less and then stopped didn't find it satisfactory. I would imagine there are vanishingly few marriages which started out as monogamous relationships and engaged in swinging regularly over a long period (years/decades) while maintaining the integrity and stability of the primary relationship. It would be interesting on actually being directed to research about this. Otherwise, at best, it seems a very "fringe" kink.


see post above about starting your own thread.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Laurentium said:


> The classic paper on it is https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjE2frWyeX6AhXd_rsIHYvAB-4QFnoECCwQAQ&url=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/009262300278641&usg=AOvVaw3Pz3Pr-xKw9HrbGxb7Vsg5


A very interesting and enlightening paper! How accepted is it in the scientific community? The references are impressive. Being more than two decades old, are there more recent papers elaborating on what is in this paper.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

KindBuddha said:


> This is so grandiose. Now you're not only trying to sell the notion that swingers have marriages "as good" as a functional healthy monogamous marriage--a very debatable point, understatement-- but in fact, you're saying or heavily implying that swingers are on a higher plane of existence than "the average couple." "It's not for the masses" = swingers are some kind of "elite" class.
> 
> This is sheer narcissistic fantasy, at least the way you presented it just now.


let me put it another way.

Should the average joes that get together at the park on weekends to play flag football, suit up and play in an NFL game?

should a private pilot with a license to fly a single engine Cessna, try to fly a passenger laden 747?

should a green belt from corner shopping center Dragon Fang Tae Kwon Do studio get in the ring with a pro MMA fighter?

Should a basic EMT try to perform a heart surgery?

my point here is not about elitism or who is greater than vs less than, but rather that there are different levels in all things and that the “average” person is not necessarily prepared to participate safely in all levels of a given activity.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Just read the scientific paper @Laurentium linked to. Everything discussed in this thread about SD, RD etc. The causes, effects, potential treatments, everything. I imagine perusing the footnoted papers would also enlighten.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> my point here is not about elitism or who is greater than vs less than, but rather that there are different levels in all things and that the “average” person is not necessarily prepared to participate safely in all levels of a given activity.


Inotherwords "don't try this at home! These activities are for trained and competent professionals, not amateurs".


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rus47 said:


> Inotherwords "don't try this at home! These activities are for trained and competent professionals, not amateurs".


If there is such a thing as professional swingers, where do I find that training program and where do I apply for the job!! 😆

But let me put it this way, I don’t think anyone should just walk into it blindly without having a series of very serious, open and honest discussions with their partner and without doing their due diligence in researching the risks and pitfalls and learning how to manage and mitigate those risks.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> If there is such a thing as professional swingers, where do I find that training program and where do I apply for the job!! 😆


Reminds me of Woody Allen in "Sleeper" saying he had a PhD in oral sex.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Back to Dr Psych Mom - she has a LOT of podcasts. I just listened to one about kitchen (or home) makeovers. DPM definitely gets it. I've seen that scenario a few times. Different people play out their desire for novelty in different ways....


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I wonder if there's anyone on this forum in a polygamist cult. There was on another forum I used to be on.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Laurentium said:


> Back to Dr Psych Mom - she has a LOT of podcasts. I just listened to one about kitchen (or home) makeovers. DPM definitely gets it. I've seen that scenario a few times.


That episode struck a cord with me as well. My wife would do a new addition or a remodel a week if she could.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Laurentium said:


> Reminds me of Woody Allen in "Sleeper" saying he had a PhD in oral sex.


The best line in sleeper was Diane Keaton at the pool party when she said it would have been nice to have had sex at the party but there weren't enough people there


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Yeah. Even young, I would call it more "driven" than "horny" for most women. Driven for attention, driven for affection, driven to compete, driven for excitement in general. If a lot of women were horny in the same sense a lot of men are and as consistently, like a lot of men, they would not be nearly as choosy about their partners. (Of course, thankfully, different women do think different types of men are doable, contrary to popular incel theory.) A lot of attractiveness for women (and probably for at least some men as well) is being attracted to the way a guy interacts with you. For


Dr Psych Mom kind of addresses this in a roundabout way as well.

while your statement that women may be driven more by want of attention, praise, affection, acceptance etc etc rather than pure horniness may be factual - The truth is the same is often true for men to a degree as well.

women often accuse men of being horndogs and just wanting to get their rocks off etc, but the reality is men are wanting attention and affection and acceptance etc as well but it is often manifesting through their sexuality.

as compared to women, most heterosexual men live very singular and even isolated lives.

men do not get the nurturing and praise and affection and strokes that women get from people in general.

other than some chick hitting on a guy in a bar feeling his muscles and saying she can tell he works out (which will only happen to a very few men to begin with) no one ever stokes a man’s hair and tells him how soft and pretty it is.

No man has any man ever had someone take his hand and tell him how nice his nails are and how soft his hands are.

no one ever how good his outfit looks on him (straight men don’t even have “outfits” )

no one ever tells a man how great he is and that things will be better tomorrow when he is having a down day (no one even knows or cares if a man is even having a down day)

other men may admire a guy’s golf swing or the size of a deer he shoots, but men bust on and cajole and even bully other men but do not give him praise, nurturing or affection.

other women typical do not even speak to or interact with men they are not involved with and will tend to avoid them or willbe uncomfortable if a man that is not a close relative or friend gets near them.

about the only warm and soft nurturing, praise, affection, acceptance a man will get, is from his mate in the form of romantic or sexual interaction.

so yes, men do pursue sex.

but like women, a certain percentage and degree of that pursuit is for the same things you mention above.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Dr Psych Mom kind of addresses this in a roundabout way as well.
> 
> while your statement that women may be driven more by want of attention, praise, affection, acceptance etc etc rather than pure horniness may be factual - The truth is the same is often true for men to a degree as well.
> 
> ...


I admit I didn't get all the way through that because it's morning. But there's a lot of generalizations in there. 

For example I love men with long hair so I am all over that. Guys who bother to look good and stylish even if it's in an unconventional way get plenty of compliments and attention from women. That doesn't mean the women necessarily want to bang them but they get plenty of attention.

That part about how they want attention manifest sexually is why they seem so one note and deserve the reputation they get for being horn dogs when they are. That said when I was young and meeting and interested in lots of guys and they were interested in me, it didn't start because I had a hot body that's for sure. It started because they were interested in what I was doing. But there are plenty of guys out there who probably outnumber them who are only interested in women sexually. Which is boring


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I have no idea what's going on in this thread...  I got it wrong in another earlier on too... I think I should "retire" for a bit.


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## Trdd (Jan 11, 2022)

I read a book that described the potential cycle like this... 

1) Wife loses some of her sex drive after a few years as described above
2) Husband gets frustrated and feels unloved by lack of sex. Starts to offer fewer compliments, less affection.
3) Wife gets fewer compliments and affection, gets frustrated and feels unloved. 

Then one or the other is primed for temptation from an affair. A bit of affection makes them feel attractive again and slippery slope begins. If this happens to the wife, her sex drive may come roaring back for the AP and she will be swept head over heels for him.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

KindBuddha said:


> I don't disagree. However, (since you quoted my post), you didn't address "spontaneous desire." If the issue is that "spontaneous desire" is missing, then logically speaking, how is it ever my responsibility if my spouse doesn't have it?
> 
> It's "spontaneous." By definition, nothing that I do, or that I don't do, causes it to be present, or causes it to be absent. That's literally what "spontaneous" means. It is an effect without a cause.
> 
> ...


I don't think you fully understand the definition of spontaneous and responsive desire. SD means it is always on your mind and you are pretty much always ready to go. RD mean don't think about sex all the time. You need stimulus to get you motor going.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

I'm still bingeing on Dr Psych Mom. I heard a great one this morning for married men about, if your sex life is a problem, are your definitely brushing your teeth twice a day, showering every day and after exercise, visiting the dentist, keeping your nails clean etc? Because, for some reason, _your wife will be reluctant to tell you. _But hygiene could be the problem. Ewwww.



In Absentia said:


> I have no idea what's going on in this thread...  I got it wrong in another earlier on too... I think I should "retire" for a bit.


As far as I'm concerned, I'm just pushing this podcast. (I have no commercial affiliation etc etc). Others may be debating "bait and switch".


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Laurentium said:


> I'm still bingeing on Dr Psych Mom. I heard a great one this morning for married men about, if your sex life is a problem, are your definitely brushing your teeth twice a day, showering every day and after exercise, visiting the dentist, keeping your nails clean etc? Because, for some reason, _your wife will be reluctant to tell you. _But hygiene could be the problem. Ewwww.
> 
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, I'm just pushing this podcast. (I have no commercial affiliation etc etc). Others may be debating "bait and switch".


She had another very good podcast on this topic over the weekend where she talked about women’s declining level of spontaneous desire and what she believes is the fallacy of bait and switch.

but this particular podcast went into more detail on the hurt and distress and even actual heartbreak that men can experience when they go from dating and marrying a woman that has genuine burning desire and passion for them - then a few years later is not only showing little if any interest in them but is actually pushing them away and is mocking or is even angry and resentful towards the man’s interest in continued marital intimacy.

she calls this an “empathic rupture” and is a dismissal and disregard of something that is a very critical and necessary for him to have in a happy and healthy relationship.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Laurentium said:


> I'm still bingeing on Dr Psych Mom. I heard a great one this morning for married men about, if your sex life is a problem, are your definitely brushing your teeth twice a day, showering every day and after exercise, visiting the dentist, keeping your nails clean etc? Because, for some reason, _your wife will be reluctant to tell you. _But hygiene could be the problem. Ewwww.
> 
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, I'm just pushing this podcast. (I have no commercial affiliation etc etc). Others may be debating "bait and switch".


Bait: what one may fish with
Switch: what we got swatted with after doing dumb stuff as kids.


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## GoodDad5 (9 mo ago)

I listened to her podcast with the DSO guy and I get what they are saying about this subject, but when my wife just refuses to budge from the same boring mundane sex without any effort I don’t know what else I can do for an outlet.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

168 subscribers? Man she's really niche.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

GoodDad5 said:


> I listened to her podcast with the DSO guy and I get what they are saying about this subject, but when my wife just refuses to budge from the same boring mundane sex without any effort I don’t know what else I can do for an outlet.


It is because the person who cares the least about the relationship has all the power. Just let that sink in and what all that means.


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## GoodDad5 (9 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> It is because the person who cares the least about the relationship has all the power. Just let that sink in and what all that means.


Spoken truth right there. 

I’m really honestly at the point now where I just wish my wife would stop even trying to ask me about sex because when we do try it she throws up so many roadblocks that it just turns me off entirely. She thinks I need it but honestly I can always take care of it solo. This sucks because the rest of our marriage is good.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

GoodDad5 said:


> Spoken truth right there.
> 
> I’m really honestly at the point now where I just wish my wife would stop even trying to ask me about sex because when we do try it she throws up so many roadblocks that it just turns me off entirely. She thinks I need it but honestly I can always take care of it solo. This sucks because the rest of our marriage is good.


I guess its good she is at least asking as many low drive partners in these situations don't want anything to do with the discussion of sex But I get what you are saying.


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## GoodDad5 (9 mo ago)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I guess its good she is at least asking as many low drive partners in these situations don't want anything to do with the discussion of sex But I get what you are saying.


So last night was a bust as she mentioned having sex but again put up so many roadblocks in the process. She knows if she waits until it’s very late I will be too tired for it and won’t be able to stay aroused. Of course her roadblocks kill the mood too. Roadblocks being I can only do certain things, we stick with one position, and I can’t ask for certain things. So since last night was a bust she told me before bed we would do it in the morning. Guess what didn’t happen?


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## romantic_dreamer (Jun 15, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I have become a pretty big fan of the Dr Psych Mom podcasts and articles over the last few weeks.
> 
> First my disclaimer: I am in no way affliliated with her material and have no financial interests in her content. I am not even one of her paid subscribers, I only access her free material.
> 
> ...


I am not a woman but in general I agree that for a woman to want to have sex she needs to be sexually aroused, she needs to be romanced, and she needs to find her man attractive. I think many men fail to understand this. She needs to feel special, desired.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

romantic_dreamer said:


> I am not a woman but in general I agree that for a woman to want to have sex she needs to be sexually aroused, she needs to be romanced, and she needs to find her man attractive. I think many men fail to understand this. She needs to feel special, desired.


And she also has to at least have SOME interest. 

The thing I read the other day here was the spot on that "its really tough to start wet firewood".


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## gr8ful1 (Dec 3, 2016)

Slight tangent but I’ve heard DPM repeatedly urge women to NOT use sex toys during intercourse with their husbands but I’ve never heard her explain in detail why. Anyone know?


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

GoodDad5 said:


> So last night was a bust as she mentioned having sex but again put up so many roadblocks in the process. She knows if she waits until it’s very late I will be too tired for it and won’t be able to stay aroused. Of course her roadblocks kill the mood too. Roadblocks being I can only do certain things, we stick with one position, and I can’t ask for certain things. So since last night was a bust she told me before bed we would do it in the morning. Guess what didn’t happen?


My ex was like that as she never let me give her oral and never touch her vagina. But I ran with it anyway and all we ever really did was intercourse. But yeah it was pretty boring.

I have learned the promise of sex "later" or "in the morning" is just another empty promise. And the results are the same as if a parent promises a child ice cream later and then never delivers. Sorry you are going through this as it really is unfair yet the day you tell her you are getting divorced, it will all be YOUR fault.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

gr8ful1 said:


> Slight tangent but I’ve heard DPM repeatedly urge women to NOT use sex toys during intercourse with their husbands but I’ve never heard her explain in detail why. Anyone know?


Yeah, actually I was even going to start another DPM thread about her perspective on toys, masturbation, porn etc etc

Her position on toys/spanking/porn etc is a little more nuanced than "don't do it."

She says it's ok (and can even be good) to use toys etc WITH your partner as an occasional novelty or extra fun. 

What she warns against is using toys etc INSTEAD of your partner and more specifically relying on toys/porn/spanking for your satisfaction instead of collaborating with one's partner to make it a mutually satisfying endeavor for all.

I may spin that off into another thread.

Oh, and the reason why she discourages those things being used as an individual is that it is basically substituting or even replacing the spouse as their source of sexual satisfaction and connection. 

She refers to it as "Junk Food Sex" and that is basically like living on cheeseburgers and banana splits and ruining one's appetite for a more nutricious and healthy sex life.


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## romantic_dreamer (Jun 15, 2021)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> And she also has to at least have SOME interest.
> 
> The thing I read the other day here was the spot on that "its really tough to start wet firewood".


I agree that some women are asexual. However I think more often than not they just lose attractiveness and respect for their male partner. If a man is disrespectful, rude, puts her down she will naturally loses interest to be intimate with such a man.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

misquote


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

romantic_dreamer said:


> I agree that some women are asexual. However I think more often than not they just lose attractiveness and respect for their male partner. If a man is disrespectful, rude, puts her down she will naturally loses interest to be intimate with such a man.


I agree although I don't know that I would call it asexual. I think its just they lose any real need for sex particularly in mature women. I think there are situations where a woman still likes being married for the partnership, companionship, and security and stability of her man yet doesn't want sex. At least this is my personal experience.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

GoodDad5 said:


> So last night was a bust as she mentioned having sex but again put up so many roadblocks in the process. She knows if she waits until it’s very late I will be too tired for it and won’t be able to stay aroused. Of course her roadblocks kill the mood too. Roadblocks being I can only do certain things, we stick with one position, and I can’t ask for certain things. So since last night was a bust she told me before bed we would do it in the morning. Guess what didn’t happen?





FloridaGuy1 said:


> I have learned the promise of sex "later" or "in the morning" is just another empty promise. And the results are the same as if a parent promises a child ice cream later and then never delivers.


DPM has an entire podcast about this exact thing (I'm seriously starting to wonder if she peruses these forums for material).

She has a podcast from back in Sept titled, "Every Time You Promise Sex You Do Not Do, An Angel Dies In Heaven." 

She likens it to someone promising a child wanting ice cream but the parent doesn't want to mess with getting ice cream at this time so they promise to get ice cream the next day, but then the next day has another excuse and so on and so on. 

If a parent does that to a child all the time, they would be a shtty parent and would ultimately cause trust and security and attachment issues in the child......... but yet lots of people think it is perfectly ok to do to their partner.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

GoodDad5 said:


> This sucks because the rest of our marriage is good.


In reality, this problem bleeds into the entire relationship. So the marriage is FAR from "good". It is actually very bad for your mental and ultimately physical health. Your resentment is palpable through your posts, it has to be palpable to your "wife". For her not to care at all speaks volumes about how invested she is in your marriage. It must be because she knows very well that you aren't going anywhere.



FloridaGuy1 said:


> a woman still likes being married for the partnership, companionship, and security and stability of her man yet doesn't want sex.


Maybe. But it is hard to imagine how this can be true. How can she "enjoy" any of those things when her husband is p!st off all of the time, stressed from being forced into celibacy? Unless she has a sadistic streak and enjoys making someone miserable.


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## romantic_dreamer (Jun 15, 2021)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I agree although I don't know that I would call it asexual. I think its just they lose any real need for sex particularly in mature women. I think there are situations where a woman still likes being married for the partnership, companionship, and security and stability of her man yet doesn't want sex. At least this is my personal experience.


And this is called asexual. No interest in sex whatever.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

romantic_dreamer said:


> I agree that some women are asexual. However I think more often than not they just lose attractiveness and respect for their male partner. If a man is disrespectful, rude, puts her down she will naturally loses interest to be intimate with such a man.


I used to believe this. That is also one of the foundational principles that much of MC and sex therapy is based on. For many years it has been assumed that the loss of desire in women was due to men being jerks and assholes and putting on weight and not doing enough with the house and kids etc. 

After digging into the works of DPM and especially hearing about some of the research by Dr Wednesday Martin, I'm beginning to question how much is due to men dropping the ball vs how much of this is just a natural process in the female sexual nomenclature and is just simply what chicks do. 

Did Tom Brady get fat and lazy and became a jerk and didn't help enough around the house? 

I've never believed that humans are innately monogamous for life and that the basic programming in both males and females is to have multiple pairings at various intervals throughout their lifespans (ie, serial monogamy). 

IMHO this is how it manifests in women. They lose sexual interest in one partner after a period of time and eventually another catches their eye and they monkey branch. 

In men, they don't exactly lose sexual interest in any one particular mate, they just try to add more to the harem without ditching the previous.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

romantic_dreamer said:


> And this is called asexual. No interest in sex whatever.


But it's often not actually asexuality in that they have no sexual interest forever or for anyone.

The more common scenario is they lose interest in that particular person but then get the hots for someone else at some point.

This is why so many BH's are blown away when they find out that their supposedly frigid and asexual wife who would barely let the H touch them for years unless it was on their birthday and the lights had to be off and they had to be drunk and they had to be under the blankets and could only do it in the missionary position for 4 minutes and 27 seconds as long as all the dishes were done and the laundry was all folded and put away etc etc etc - Were now having wild and uninhibited porn star sex with Sven From Yoga and were doing things that could not even be mentioned by the BH. 

It's not that they are asexual. It's that they are asexual for their current partner. 

AND - Even if she and Sven From Yoga were to actually get together and get married,, in a matter of years, she and Sven From Yoga would also be in a dead bedroom and she would be having wild monkey sex with Kevin From Sales. 

"She is never yours. It is just your turn."
- Richard Cooper


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## romantic_dreamer (Jun 15, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I used to believe this. That is also one of the foundational principles that much of MC and sex therapy is based on. For many years it has been assumed that the loss of desire in women was due to men being jerks and assholes and putting on weight and not doing enough with the house and kids etc.
> 
> After digging into the works of DPM and especially hearing about some of the research by Dr Wednesday Martin, I'm beginning to question how much is due to men dropping the ball vs how much of this is just a natural process in the female sexual nomenclature and is just simply what chicks do.
> 
> ...


I do not agree with this view. I think women are attracted biologically to strong confident man. Sometimes though they either marry more socially acceptable man who they perceive a good father's and providers. With time though nature's takes it's share and they lose interest in their partner expecially if another man appears in their life who has what their partner does not have. 

I personally believe a woman is like a flower. It will blossom but only if it is cared for, watered and protected from predators. She also needs to be attracted to her partner. Often with time man change, gain weight, be ome indifferent to their wives, so I he wife loses interest in the man.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> In reality, this problem bleeds into the entire relationship. So the marriage is FAR from "good". It is actually very bad for your mental and ultimately physical health. Your resentment is palpable through your posts, it has to be palpable to your "wife". For her not to care at all speaks volumes about how invested she is in your marriage. It must be because she knows very well that you aren't going anywhere.
> 
> 
> Maybe. But it is hard to imagine how this can be true. How can she "enjoy" any of those things when her husband is p!st off all of the time, stressed from being forced into celibacy? Unless she has a sadistic streak and enjoys making someone miserable.


Honestly I think she can tolerate that for the other benefits she gains from the marriage. I really do think I was bait and switched into marriage as since we got married, she gave up on sex, hasn't worked and put on around 40 lbs. I hate to admit it but I think I was duped. Shame on me for being such a fool.


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## GoodDad5 (9 mo ago)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> My ex was like that as she never let me give her oral and never touch her vagina. But I ran with it anyway and all we ever really did was intercourse. But yeah it was pretty boring.
> 
> I have learned the promise of sex "later" or "in the morning" is just another empty promise. And the results are the same as if a parent promises a child ice cream later and then never delivers. Sorry you are going through this as it really is unfair yet the day you tell her you are getting divorced, it will all be YOUR fault.


Your ex and my wife sound like the same woman. 

This isn’t the first time she’s promised me sex and didn’t fulfill it. I’m pretty used to this by now. She knows I’m pissed today.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rus47 said:


> Maybe. But it is hard to imagine how this can be true. How can she "enjoy" any of those things when her husband is p!st off all of the time, stressed from being forced into celibacy? Unless she has a sadistic streak and enjoys making someone miserable.


But those are his problems. If she's getting her needs met and everything is a hunky dory on her end, is she really going to care that he is stressed by his own sex drive. 

When we were going through MC my wife literally said, "That's YOUR problem. I am not responsible for how you feel because of your sex drive." 

And in a way she was right. 

But it wasn't until the MC told her in black and white plain english that my needs were legitimate and that I had a legitimate right to end the marriage and get my needs met elsewhere and that I already had one foot out the door and that she would soon be a single mother of two elementary school kids if she did not want to address my needs before she began to take it seriously.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

romantic_dreamer said:


> they lose interest in their partner expecially if another man appears in their life who has what their partner does not have.


So isn’t this nearly inevitable over a 20+ year marriage? Isnt it a certainty that “another” who has what her husband doesn’t appears over that time? Especially if she still has the looks to attract “another’s” attention,


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

romantic_dreamer said:


> I do not agree with this view. I think women are attracted biologically to strong confident man. Sometimes though they either marry more socially acceptable man who they perceive a good father's and providers. With time though nature's takes it's share and they lose interest in their partner expecially if another man appears in their life who has what their partner does not have.
> 
> I personally believe a woman is like a flower. It will blossom but only if it is cared for, watered and protected from predators. She also needs to be attracted to her partner. Often with time man change, gain weight, be ome indifferent to their wives, so I he wife loses interest in the man.


This kind of becomes a chicken vs the egg argument. 

Yes men put on weight and become less active as they age just like women do. But is the weight gain and less active or even the indifference you mention the cause or the result of her losing her desire? 

It generally takes longer in a LTR/marriage for a man to lose desire and often that comes after 37,625 rejections. 

So is his weight gain and indifference causing her to lose desire for him? Or has her loss of desire for him and her 37,625 rejections caused him to become indifferent or even resentful and bitter towards her?

In her book The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands, Dr Laura Schlesinger talks at length about this. When men are consistently rejected for periods of time and are denied intimacy, they often turn inwards into themselves and start holing up in their man caves and getting deeper and deeper into their hobbies or personal activities or plunge themselves deeper into their work or even turn to darker things like drugs/alcohol or affairs etc. 

Her perspective is that it is actually the women rejecting and pulling away from intimacy that is triggering the men into becoming withdrawn and emotionally distant and slinking into their man caves and becoming beer guzzling couch potatoes etc. 

That book came out 20some years ago and much of the research by Dr Wednesday Martin and what Dr Psych Mom is seeing in her MC and sex therapy practice is supporting that. 

Now of course men getting fat and lazy and withdrawn is going to negatively impact their spouse's desire. But whether it is truly the precipitating and root causal factor or whether it all gets wrapped up into viscious cycle is open for debate. 

I'll go back to Tom Brady. He is still the GOAT. He is still rock solid and a good looking guy and he is still bringing home more money that what they can shovel into the trunks of his luxury cars. If he was abusive or a recalcitrant cheater, her attorneys and marketing directors would be plastering that all over every tabloid across the globe and we would all be buying her boxes of Kleenex to dab the tear from her eye. But what appears to be happening here is it is just her time to move on. He is arguably one of the hottest hunks and most desirable men in this country and he probably has not gotten a proper blow job from Gisele in several years. 

So it's gotta more than just men putting on weight and getting lazy around the house or being abusive or assholes etc


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## romantic_dreamer (Jun 15, 2021)

Rus47 said:


> So isn’t this nearly inevitable over a 20+ year marriage? Isnt it a certainty that “another” who has what her husband doesn’t appears over that time? Especially if she still has the looks to attract “another’s” attention,


No, it is not inevitable. However, for his not to happen man needs to look attractive to his girl. And primarily not with the looks but with actions and behavior. Women are attracted to decisive, confident man who take action and responsibilities for himself and his girl. The girl needs to feel safe protected and desired by her man. I believe it is also important for a girl how her man treats his appearance. It is not that extra pounds that make him unattractive. It is what he is doing to get rid of them being couch potato, eating crap, not exercising is unattractive.

By the way opposite is equally true. If a woman does not care how she looks, dresses in pijamas who day unshowered. Gains weights and does nothing to lose it. I doubt any man would be sexually attractive to suhna girl and if another girl appears on the horizon who dresses nicely, puts make up when appropriate this girl will spike attraction from this man regardless of the man's martial status.

The moral is that marriage itself does no ensure either partner will remain attractive and desired just because she or he is married or have 8 kids together. We need to take care of ourselves and our partners to make this happen and continue this to happen.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Well, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. 

I know all sorts of married couples, short and fat/ tall and skinny/fit athletic/couch potatoes. They aren't leaving one another in droves or seeking attention from someone else. The people having the most difficulties that wife and I know are in an emotionally abusive disrespectful situation like @GoodDad5 and @FloridaGuy1 . The only thing that keeps them hanging around is how much leaving will cost them financially. Or the kids. If they ever figure that out they are out of the door.

Also, I have been fit and unfit and fit again. I had hair when we married, bald as a q ball now. Wrinkles stem to stern. Wife never missed a beat. She loved me as I was full stop. Wife also has wrinkles stem to stern now. To me she is still the teenage cheerleader I met in HS. She is beautiful WITHIN.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

romantic_dreamer said:


> No, it is not inevitable. However, for his not to happen man needs to look attractive to his girl. And primarily not with the looks but with actions and behavior. Women are attracted to decisive, confident man who take action and responsibilities for himself and his girl. The girl needs to feel safe protected and desired by her man. I believe it is also important for a girl how her man treats his appearance. It is not that extra pounds that make him unattractive. It is what he is doing to get rid of them being couch potato, eating crap, not exercising is unattractive.
> 
> By the way opposite is equally true. If a woman does not care how she looks, dresses in pijamas who day unshowered. Gains weights and does nothing to lose it. I doubt any man would be sexually attractive to suhna girl and if another girl appears on the horizon who dresses nicely, puts make up when appropriate this girl will spike attraction from this man regardless of the man's martial status.
> 
> The moral is that marriage itself does no ensure either partner will remain attractive and desired just because she or he is married or have 8 kids together. We need to take care of ourselves and our partners to make this happen and continue this to happen.


I agree with everything you've said here and agree that remaining fit and attractive and engaged and actively involved in the household and marriage might help lessen the degree of attenuation of desire over time......... but I think it is still going to decrease over time. At least for the vast majority of people. 

Sexless marriage is absolutely NOT inevitable and I am not suggesting that it is. But, in vast majority of even healthy and happy couples, the effects of time and longevity and age are still going to occur. 

Even if someone takes great care of themselves and does everything perfectly, They may be able to maintain an active and healthy sex life,, but it ain't gonna be like they were 25 years old and first dating.


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## romantic_dreamer (Jun 15, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I agree with everything you've said here and agree that remaining fit and attractive and engaged and actively involved in the household and marriage might help lessen the degree of attenuation of desire over time......... but I think it is still going to decrease over time. At least for the vast majority of people.
> 
> Sexless marriage is absolutely NOT inevitable and I am not suggesting that it is. But, in vast majority of even healthy and happy couples, the effects of time and longevity and age are still going to occur.
> 
> Even if someone takes great care of themselves and does everything perfectly, They may be able to maintain an active and healthy sex life,, but it ain't gonna be like they were 25 years old and first dating.


I disagree with you based on my own marriage. I have known my wife for almost 30 years, been together for 26 and married for 25 I can honestly say that I am as attracted to her now as I was 30 ago when I saw her for the first time. She is the only one in my desires and fantasies. Yes, she does not look now at 48 as she looked at 18, she has some acne, cellulite. But it does not make her less attractive or sexually desired by me.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

romantic_dreamer said:


> I disagree with you based on my own marriage. I have known my wife for almost 39 years, been together for 26 and married for 25 I can honestly say that I am as attracted to her now as I was 30 ago when I saw her for the first time. She is the only one in my desires and fantasies. Yes, she does look now at 48 as she looked at 18, she has some acne, cellulite. But it does not make her less attractive or sexually desired by me.


That's great! And that is very fortunate for you. But it doesn't really change anything that I said. 

A man's desire can often keep on trucking and it's great that you can still see her through the Wife Goggles. 

But a menopausal woman that has been with one man for decades is going to be a different experience even if he does remain fit and attractive and is a good partner.


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## romantic_dreamer (Jun 15, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> That's great! And that is very fortunate for you. But it doesn't really change anything that I said.
> 
> A man's desire can often keep on trucking and it's great that you can still see her through the Wife Goggles.
> 
> But a menopausal woman that has been with one man for decades is going to be a different experience even if he does remain fit and attractive and is a good partner.


I am not sure what you are trying to state. A menopausal woman's change in sex drive? My wife is not menopausal but I assume this is huge hormonal change and different women experience it differently.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> "She is never yours. It is just your turn."
> - Richard Cooper


Who the heck is Richard Cooper?


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