# Getting past the past and over the hurt of dishonesty.



## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

Hello. I’ve been Googling for months and I came across this board and found some insight, but I haven’t really found any answers that meet my situation exactly.

This coming September will make 19 years that we’ve been married. We dated for about 2 years before getting married. We have 3 children aged between 8 and 10 years old. We were both in the military at the time we met.

Prior to getting married, we had the talk about past partners (Yes, I now know how stupid that was). At 21 years old, I had been in several relationships that were never sexual. I had only had one partner with whom I had any sexual contact and that was only after I was engaged to that person. So my only sexual partner was someone with whom I was in a relationship with. Prior to “the talk” I had expressed my lack of respect for the women in the barracks who slept around freely. When we had “the talk”, she said she had been with three partners, but then quickly changed that number to two partners (the third she had just shared a bed with on a trip with friends, there was no sex or touching). I did question her changing her answer at the time, but I was truly in love with this girl and decided that it didn’t matter what she had done. 

We got married after the talk. We eloped and got married at a courthouse. After eloping, we wanted a church wedding in a military chapel. To do this, we had to go through pre-marital counseling. In this pre-marital counseling session, her past partners came up. She stated that there were 2 partners. The first was a guy who was pursuing her but she had no interest in him. Six months before she met me, she decided it was time to lose her virginity, so she got drunk and had sex with this guy in a hotel. A few days later, she decided to have sex with him again in her room. Her second partner was someone she said she had a crush on. She had never dated this person, but she hoped that having sex with him right before she moved would result in a long distance relationship. She said she forced herself on him a few weeks before she left that assignment and had sex with him on the couch at the place they worked together. She never contacted him after the sex or even went on a date with him after the sex. While not easy for me to accept this, I did accept it. It was who she was and while I wasn’t totally cool with what her past held, I was willing to look past it for the person who she was with me. I felt that she was still very much the person that I wanted to be with forever.

After the church wedding, things started to slow down in the bedroom. We were still having sex, but not as often. I was attributing much of that to us both being in college (Thank You GI Bill) and working at the time. There was part of me that still questioned her past due to her answer changing from 3 partners to 2 partners. I would sometimes ask about her past, but she was consistent in her answers. She had slept with 2 other men, she used condoms every time, she never had an orgasm with the others, she had never given or received oral sex. She reassured me that I was the only one who had given her an orgasm, that I was the only one she had performed oral sex on, that I was the only one she had ever had unprotected sex with. I came to believe that she was telling me the truth and never really put much thought into the matter. Any time that I mentioned that we were not having very much sex, she always came up with an excuse for not having sex. School, stress, work, children, "mommies don't have sex". I was in school (and even completed grad school beyond her Bachelors degree), I had stress, I worked more hours than her, I took care of the children as much as she did, and daddies do want to have sex!

Over time, the frequency of sex continued to decrease between us. It was not due to a lack of desire on my part. I still found my wife incredibly sexy. I had repeatedly expressed my desire for more sex with her. I repeatedly told her that I still found her very physically attractive. I purchased her the Panty of the Month for about 3 years, took “glam” photos of her for to use as my computer desktop wallpaper and as the photo for my monthly calendars. I planned a tropical vacation for us alone. Eventually the rejection started taking its toll and I stopped pursuing her as much. 

About 8 years ago I started trying again to spice things up. I was begging her to put some effort into thinking about sex every once in a while. Things would cycle regularly. I would beg for sex, things would be good for about a month, things would be stale for 3 or 4 months, I would beg again. Several times I wrote pages of things that she could to to show me she was interested in sex, that I was interested in sex, and that I still found her physically attractive. 

Her response was that after being together for so long I couldn't still find her attractive. This was based on an episode of "Cheaters" that we saw one afternoon that showed a guy who was cheating on his wife because he was just tired of her. I repeatedly assured her that this was not the case with her. I was VERY attracted to her still. 
After the first 2 kids were born, she attributed the lack of sex to me prying into her past. She said that she thought I was not over her past and that it was the root of our problems. To the contrary, I was fine with her past. I had tried having her fantasize about the other 2 people she had slept with to get her stimulated and to get her interested in sex with ME again. It didn’t work.

Fast forward through several years of the same cycle of little to no sex.

June of 2013, I decided I would see just how much sex she desires. We had sex one night and I decided that I would wait to see how long it would be before she had the desire to have sex again. I would not reject her, but I did not pursue her. In the past, we had gone for 3-4 weeks at a time without sex. To go 2 weeks at a time was normal for us despite my begging. As it turns out, it was 8 weeks before she decided that she wanted to have sex. I didn’t mention this to her at the time it was happening. I only mentioned it to her about a year later. At that point, I decided I was done with begging for sex from her. I was committed to being faithful to her, but I had just given in to accepting that we were going to have a sexless marriage.

Fast forward to March 2014.

One evening after having sex, my wife decided to tell me that she had lied to me and that she had slept with four other partners before me. 

She said the first one was the one in the hotel and again a few days later in her barracks room. She was not interested in him, but chose to sleep with him because he kept asking her out despite her repeatedly rejecting him. She decided he was the one to lose her virginity to because the rumor was that he had slept with many women. She had sex with him on the first date which involved taking her out for dinner and wine and then to a hotel. A few days later she had sex with him when he just showed up at her door. There was no relationship.

The second was another person in the barracks. Several friends were going to get together to watch a movie in the guy’s room. She was the only one that showed up, so she watched the movie and then decided to sleep with the guy. She said that he had given her an orgasm. She said that as soon as he was done, he got up and went to playing a game on his computer and left her naked in the bed. She just sat there for a while before getting dressed and going back to her room. There was no relationship.

The third was a guy she had met 3 days earlier. She went with a friend to his house. While her friend and his sister went to look for something, the guy asked her if she was ok with having sex. She had sex with him while waiting on her friend to return. There was no relationship and she never saw the guy again.

The fourth was the coworker previously mentioned. She did have sex on the work couch and, despite previously denying it, she did perform oral sex on this partner. She did not have a relationship with this person either. 
She lied about the number of sex partners.

She lied about having orgasms with others after telling me that I was the only one that had given her an orgasm.

She lied about having performed oral sex on anyone and had told me that I was the only one that she had performed oral sex on.

As for condoms, she says she really does not know if any of these guys used condoms or not, but that she just assumes that they did even though she doesn't remember seeing any condoms.


So now here we are today. We have gone through almost a year of marriage counseling and things between us are still hit or miss. We have some good days, but I think we still have more bad days than good days. She has started working with a coach to improve her outlook and her self-esteem. Certainly both of these are things that could improve our relationship. She has also started exercising some. She has started dressing much nicer around me. She has started keeping her hair nicer around me. She has started keeping her nails painted around me. She has starting trying to let me know that she wants to make this work between us. 

How do I feel?

I’m not upset by the number of her partners. I am completely disgusted by her dishonesty. If I ask questions about her past now, she gets angry with me. This does nothing to build trust. She also frequently does not remember what happened back then or does not know the answer to what I ask. While these other partners were 20 years ago, I understand that memory fades, but an “I don’t know” or an “I don’t remember” does nothing to help boost the trust right now.

I feel that I had accepted her for who she was a long time ago, but now I am being forced to accept a person who is much worse than the person that I accepted so many years ago.

I no longer feel attracted to her. It’s not just a physical thing. I am finding it hard to be attracted to someone who gives herself up so easily to so many people in such a short time. She basically had 4 one night stands within a 6 month period. There was actually going to be a 5th person (not anyone she was emotionally attached to), but her roommate walked in on her while he was fingering her. I am also finding it hard to be attracted to someone who lied to me for so long. I am finding it hard to be attracted to someone who disrespected me by lying to me. I find it hard to be attracted to someone who disrespected my values (she knew I was not interested in being with a woman who slept around freely as she had done prior to marriage). Physically, she had gained some weight over the years, but was still attractive (still a size 6, and has gotten more toned with her recent decision to start exercising). In fact, prior to this issue coming up, I still would tell her how attracted to her I was even after 3 children. She was still smokin’ hot! The problem is that I sometimes see the dishonesty and the “skank” side of her showing through. This is not an all the time phenomenon. There are times that I see past these ugly characteristics and see someone I am attracted to. I wish I could see past the ugly stuff more and see more of the person I was attracted to. As it is now, when I'm desiring sex, most of the time I'd rather take care of it myself than sleep with her.

I am having a hard time with trusting her. She says that she has never cheated on me, but with the very long stretches between us having sex, where was she having her physical needs met? I know that I had to meet my own needs by “taking matters into my own hands”. The long history of deceit and multiple lies cast a shadow of doubt over everything she has ever told me. I'm not even sure I believe the version of her past that she is telling me now. She now says that she was forcing herself to not think about sex for fear that if we had sex, I might bring up her past and she would accidentally reveal that she had been lying to me. Along with the trust issues, I feel that she cheated me out of 18 years of happiness. It could have been 18 years of happiness with her (had she dealt with her own past and/or been honest with me) or it could have been with someone else (Yes, I know that if there had been someone else instead of my current wife, things may not have been any better; this is just speculation). She seems to justify lying to me about this as she was just presenting me the best version of herself that she could and that sleeping with random people was not who she really was.

I feel as if she has totally disrespected me by lying to me. She knew what my values were long before we were married. She lied to me about her past because she had done things that didn’t meet what my values were. She wants me to respect her while she seems to have no problem with disrespecting me or seeming to have had no respect for herself based on her past.

I know it’s stupid, but after all of the rejection, I feel as if she’s settling for me. I know she’s said the other guys meant nothing to her and that it was just meaningless sex. However, I feel less important to her than her meaningless sex because she felt that keeping her meaningless sex a secret was more important than her relationship with me. I feel as if I have been the only one truly present in our relationship because she has been off guarding her book of secrets instead of being present with me.

We’re still going to marriage counseling. I’m still trying to make things work. In the beginning I had a strong desire to hurt her (emotionally, not physically!). I was wishing that I had done something in our past that I could reveal to her that would cause her a great deal of emotional pain as she had caused for me. I had nothing. About 3 months after she told me the truth, I was going to a conference and thought about how great it would be if I could meet someone and have a one night stand to come home and rub in her face. Once I got to the conference location, I couldn’t speak to anyone and spent every evening locked alone in my hotel room knowing that I could never cheat on her.

There is a part of me that wants to just divorce her and go on with my life. But even when I think about that, I want to be able to finish paying off our house and leave her and the kids with that so that I know she and the kids will have a stable place to live. She makes about $100k/yr, so with a paid off house and no other debts, she’ll be able to live comfortably on that income. But wanting to take care of her in this way tells me that I know I’m not really ready to divorce her because I still care for her and want good things for her. But in staying with her, what do I end up with? I end up with someone that has no problems lying to me and that has sexual morals that I don’t agree with. Ultimately, I am a man of integrity and I have committed to raising a family with her and I feel that my duty as a father and commitment to family trumps my desire to divorce her.
When this first erupted, she wanted to have sex a whole lot. We had sex several days in a row and several times per day. In fact, there was one weekend where it was 10 times over 3 days. It was exhausting! However; I felt that she thought that the only problem was that we hadn’t been having sex and that now the only thing she had to do to fix things between us was to have sex more often. It seemed as if she just wanted to have sex because she felt guilty about what she had done. She wanted to have sex one time and it didn’t feel right to me, so I stopped her and said that more sex wasn’t the root of our problems. Since then, the sex has again dried up with it pretty much being 2-3 weeks between us having sex including another 6 week stretch back in November/December. I’ve tried to explain it to her, but there is a delicate balance here. I do want to have sex, but I don’t find her attractive all the time and I also am committed to being faithful to her so I can’t get sex elsewhere. 

Since this erupted, she has complained that she’s unhappy because of the state that we live in. I’ve said we can move to any state she wants, but she can’t un-sleep with the people she randomly chose to sleep with. I’m open to moving, but she’s not really interested in moving anywhere now because she is happy with her present job. I just accepted a VERY well-paying job that I couldn’t get anywhere else and I am willing to give it up to move and make her happy. I don’t honestly think that moving will make either of us any happier right now.
My main problem at this time is trust, respect, and attraction for her. 

I know I’ve rambled on, but any help or advice would be appreciated. Many times the advice is that if the marriage has been great, just let the new information go and enjoy your great marriage. Our marriage hasn’t been great. It’s been far from it. Much of the advice I’ve read also says to let the past be the past. I understand it, but that isn’t helpful. This isn’t jealousy. I’m actually proud that I don’t have the emotional baggage that she has from all her partners. I only had sex with one person whom I was very emotionally involved with. I don’t regret not sleeping around when I was single. I have no desire to increase the number of people I have slept with. I do not want that baggage to carry around.

I'm open for any constructive help that can be offered.


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## Noble1 (Oct 25, 2013)

Sorry to hear about your situation.

Like other issues, its not really the "issue" that is the problem, its the lie and dishonesty that is kept up for so long that is the real issue.

Do you think your wife "really understands" why she lied?

That may be the first step.

Good luck.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I agree that moving will not make either of you any happier.

If you are not ready to divorce her, than I think you would do well to get into individual counseling to deal with all the stuff raddling around in your head.

You said that it's not the # that she had sex with that bothers you, it's the lies. But then later you said *"I’ve said we can move to any state she wants, but she can’t un-sleep with the people she randomly chose to sleep with."*

Clearly the number of 6 instead of 3 is something that you cannot handle. It's not just that she lied. 

I don't see your marriage improving if you are not willing to figure out how to forgive her for lying. I also don't think that there is any way that she can prove to you that she is not lying now.

From what you have said, you both would be better off divorced.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Also, I doubt that sex and her lying is the only problem in your marriage. But it seems to be the only ones that you are concerned about. Perhaps this is part of the problem?


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## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Clearly the number of 6 instead of 3 is something that you cannot handle. It's not just that she lied.
> 
> I don't see your marriage improving if you are not willing to figure out how to forgive her for lying. I also don't think that there is any way that she can prove to you that she is not lying now.
> 
> *From what you have said, you both would be better off divorced.*


I'm afraid I have to agree w/ Ele here. You're fretting over your wife not telling you about previous relationships, orgasms, and whatnot? Why?

She chose you, did she not? When things went cold in my relationship, sure I fvcked up by straying, but I never once obsessed over previous partners. I'm afraid you either should get over it or move on and get some therapy to address how you feel about yourself. Not trying to be harsh, but you really shouldn't be fretting over her past relationships. Just my .02 and I wish you the best.


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

For some reason, as I read your posting, I kept thinking of the movie *East of Eden*. Maybe you remind me of Adam Trask.

He's not a "bad guy." But his pride blinds him to things.

I guess if you haven't seen it, you have no idea what I'm talking about. You should watch. It's a great movie, even if none of the characters resonates with you or your wife.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

Why does it matter what your wife did sexually before you two were mariied? She didn't cheat on you. You shouldn have asked about her past it's none of your business. Most people do lie about how many sexual partners they have been with. Men add partners and women subtract partners. I think you are just resentful because she won't have sex with you and that's not a good reason to break up your family.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

bestyet2be said:


> For some reason, as I read your posting, I kept thinking of the movie *East of Eden*. Maybe you remind me of Adam Trask.
> 
> He's not a "bad guy." But his pride blinds him to things.
> 
> I guess if you haven't seen it, you have no idea what I'm talking about. You should watch. It's a great movie, even if none of the characters resonates with you or your wife.


 One of my all time favorite classics!


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

This is going to be hard decision making and you need to think through all angles. On the one hand I would be furious with this lie that went on for years and years. Would I divorce over it....maybe, guess I would have to be there and feel it to know if that was the right thing. Fact is she lied, about something she knew was important to you, that is a marriage by deception on my book.


So suppose you divorce...you have to be around what 40 now. Any woman you will meet now will like have far greater than 4 sexual partners and a huge past. Point is if this is still going to be a Hangup for you you're going to struggle with dating post divorce. Things wont be all green grass on that side of the field i can assure you

Have you communicated with her that you have had thoughts of leaving? Has that come out in the counseling? If not you need to be clear and see where she is at.

What stuck out in your very long post is that now...after all these years she tells the truth...doubt this was weighing on her or it would have come up sooner. Sounds like maybe she is done with you and knew this would be something she could bring up to get you to leave. People do this sometimes to force the other person to pull the plug on a relationship because they can't do it.

Do you want this marriage to be saved.... Does she?

Ps don't cheat. That will just make you feel miserable about yourself and invalidate anything you are feeling about this situation because then it will become all about the cheating YOU did.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

Oh gee, another story of a wife who lied her way into getting what she wanted, depriving the husband of his autonomy and freedom of choice in who he wanted to marry. I'm sorry for you OP. I know how bad it sucks to have a lying wife.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

I can understand why you would be so upset. Lying is unacceptable. For someone to lie to their partner makes me wonder if there's something fundamentally wrong with their moral compass. Does it not work? Are they broken in some way? How are they capable of it?

When DH and I got together, we had a brief discussion at some point about previous partners. It never even occurred to either of us to be deceitful over it, HOWEVER, neither of us placed any great importance on the subject.

You made it a big deal, even a deal breaker. If it were me, I would've told the truth and if you didn't like it, screw you, I never doubted I had other options if a relationship didn't work out. I don't get the feeling your wife has much self-respect.

The thing is, you didn't pick someone like me, you picked someone like her. Someone with very little courage to be herself or self-respect. You can claim you didn't know stuff, but I firmly believe that we know a lot more instinctively than we could even comprehend. For some reason, you still wanted her despite that, now you need to learn to live with that choice.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

breeze said:


> You can claim you didn't know stuff, but I firmly believe that we know a lot more instinctively than we could even comprehend. For some reason, you still wanted her despite that, now you need to learn to live with that choice.


So, it's his fault she lied, just suck it up. Is that basically what you are saying? Or, he should have just 'known' she was lying, and since he should have 'known' she was lying, this is still his fault?


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

Personal said:


> This late in the day fault has no bearing on the outcome, if hurt and alone cannot get over this they ought to divorce.


No, it totally has bearing.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

Personal said:


> One cannot change the past, acknowledging reality is more useful than wishing something happened differently.
> 
> The OP can either move on or get over it, all else is largely superfluous as to what happens today and into the future.


And why is it that when these things come up, everybody is so quick to ignore the impetus to the problem and stick their heads in the sand about it? She directly lied to him for 20 years. She took his autonomy and free choice away, but those are dismissed and people act like 'whatever, just get over it and move on'.

I am so tired of the dismissive attitudes where men can be lied to and it is ok as long as it was for 'a good reason'. It's bullsh!t.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

You're not being truthful about her number of sexual partners bothering you/not bothering you. What Elegirl bolded in her first response proves that. 

Personally, I think you have every right to be hurt over the lying. But, you clearly have resentment over more than that by the way you describe IN DETAIL her sexual experiences. Why in the world did you even WANT that much information? So you can keep playing it over and over in your head, resenting her more and more each time? (I'm also shocked she even provided you with so much detail).


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

H&A, welcome aboard. Your post was too long for me to digest it all in one go. There are couple of key points in it which make your situation unusual. 1) You were a virgin when you met your wife. 2) She had very limited experience with PIV before you (according to her initial disclosures).

The first point does make you pretty unusual here. I was also a virgin when I met my wife. She admitted to 3 long term boyfriends she had sex with before me. We met in college. Married 30+ years now. In recent years a lot more came to light about her past. I've been through a lot of the same thought processes you are describing in your posts.

The general comments from others is going to be that this is all your problem, you never should have asked, she had the right to keep the info from you (aka lie to you) about her history, her history has no bearing on her relationship with you, just get over it, etc. But none of those comments are from your perspective as a virgin when you met her. 

Is there a reason you were a virgin when you met her? Was it intentional from a religious or moral standpoint?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

SecondTime'Round said:


> But, you clearly have resentment over more than that by the way you describe IN DETAIL her sexual experiences. Why in the world did you even WANT that much information? So you can keep playing it over and over in your head, resenting her more and more each time? (I'm also shocked she even provided you with so much detail).


Perhaps he has a value system around sex which makes a person's history important to him. So he had "the talk" with her before marriage to suss out her values and her view of sexuality. He believed she held a compatible set of values to his.

When he later found out she had lied to him about _who she was_, it destroyed his view of her. Previously she had been his loving loyal trustworthy honest wife. Now she is a liar who intentionally deceived him the entire length of their marriage. If she wasn't who she said she was, _who is she_? If she would lie to him about such an important topic, _what else has she lied to him about_.

None of this may have anything to do with her number or which acts she did.

Once trust is broken, just as with an infidelity, the betrayed needs to feel the full truth has been revealed. In part this is to establish a belief that the liar is now being fully honest. Because if they are not being fully honest there can be no security. He needs to hear her telling truth even if it is painful for both of them.

Additionally, she was not who she represented herself as, so now he needs to understand who she really is. The only way to do that is for her to provide truthful corrections to past lies.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

altawa said:


> And why is it that when these things come up, everybody is so quick to ignore the impetus to the problem and stick their heads in the sand about it? She directly lied to him for 20 years. She took his autonomy and free choice away, but those are dismissed and people act like 'whatever, just get over it and move on'.
> 
> I am so tired of the dismissive attitudes where men can be lied to and it is ok as long as it was for 'a good reason'. It's bullsh!t.


So instead of complaining over posts on thread, why don't you give advice to the OP? What should he do?


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

OP have you discussed these things with your wife:


She seems like a sexual person (based on her ability and desire to have sex without emotional attachment) so how is she getting her needs met now ?


Why did she lie about the number of partners ?


More importantly, why did she come clean now ?


Ask her, does she really want to stay in this marriage or is she looking for a way out.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

altawa said:


> So, it's his fault she lied, just suck it up. Is that basically what you are saying? Or, he should have just 'known' she was lying, and since he should have 'known' she was lying, this is still his fault?


Of course, he has to accept responsibility for his choices. We all do. There's no doubt in my mind that there were other choices of partners if he'd cared to look, however, it may be that he knew those women he wanted wouldn't accept someone with his baggage (the whole issue over previous sexual partners stuff).

He wanted his insecurities to be seen as moral superiority, so he picked someone with whom he could feel morally superior. 

Now it's coming out that she can add lying to her bag if issues, and that's pretty bad. No one wants to be with a liar, not even to make yourself feel better about you.

Either he accepts that she is a liar and tries to work on the marriage or he sits in indecision and does nothing or he divorces.

Edited to add: Note that she's still the same person she has been for the whole of the marriage. She hasn't actually changed. When he wakes up tomorrow, she will still do/say/think the same things she normally does. I think the bigger issues are those that he's been living with on a daily basis, such as lack of sex in the marriage, her lack of interest in working on their marriage, and his own built up resentment.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

What could she do to improve your marriage? Probably get her butt in gear sexually and learn how to reassure you over her lies and show concern and remorse for causing the pain.

Is she willing to work on her part of this damaged marriage? If not, you have your answers.

It takes two. Make sure you're doing your part as well. Moving isn't the answer and if she is unwilling to dig deep and improve, you two probably don't have a shot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

P.S. Lying about sex history to land a spouse is both juvenile and pathetic. She needs to explore herself in that regard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

hurt and alone said:


> After the church wedding, things started to slow down in the bedroom. We were still having sex, but not as often. I was attributing much of that to us both being in college (Thank You GI Bill) and working at the time. There was part of me that still questioned her past due to her answer changing from 3 partners to 2 partners. I would sometimes ask about her past, but she was consistent in her answers.
> .
> .
> .
> ...


Look at the good side of this, which is that she decided to tell you the truth. This shows some growth and some feeling of guilt on her part for not telling you sooner.

I want you to really think about this next question: Why is it important to you that she had an orgasm with someone else?




hurt and alone said:


> Any time that I mentioned that we were not having very much sex, she always came up with an excuse for not having sex.


There are lots of reasons why she might not want sex, but whatever she said to you was not really it. Either she is low drive or she has some toxic shame around sex. Her history as you describe it could be explained by either one of those. In a way she is being quite consistent.




hurt and alone said:


> Over time, the frequency of sex continued to decrease between us. ... Eventually the rejection started taking its toll and I stopped pursuing her as much.


Yup, a common story. I suggest you read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Robert Glover. He discusses some reasons for this.

It sounds like you have a Pursuer-Distancer relationship with her. You want a closer and more physical relationship, while she wants a distant platonic relationship. You are uncomfortable with the status quo, so you chase her. She dislikes the closeness and so she flees from you.

If this is correct, she is actually quite comfortable with the low sex relationship. So while you are acutely unhappy, she is not, and she may not understand or believe you are legitimately distressed.



hurt and alone said:


> Her response was that after being together for so long I couldn't still find her attractive. This was based on an episode of "Cheaters" that we saw one afternoon that showed a guy who was cheating on his wife because he was just tired of her.


That is pure baloney! All the way around. On her part to use the show as a reason, and on the show for portraying the cheater's faulty reasoning.



hurt and alone said:


> After the first 2 kids were born, she attributed the lack of sex to me prying into her past. She said that she thought I was not over her past and that it was the root of our problems. To the contrary, I was fine with her past.


How often did you question her about her past? What kinds of questions did you ask?



hurt and alone said:


> I had tried having her fantasize about the other 2 people she had slept with to get her stimulated and to get her interested in sex with ME again. It didn’t work.


Dude, really? Ouch.



hurt and alone said:


> Fast forward through several years of the same cycle of little to no sex.


Your dynamics in the relationship never changed, so of course the sex never changed.



hurt and alone said:


> So now here we are today. We have gone through almost a year of marriage counseling and things between us are still hit or miss .... She has starting trying to let me know that she wants to make this work between us.


So far so good. But I think you both need some IC.



hurt and alone said:


> I’m not upset by the number of her partners. I am completely disgusted by her dishonesty.
> .
> .
> .
> ...


The first part is belied by the second and third parts. You are fully entitled to have whatever value judgement you want about a person's behavior. If you in fact find her # to be acceptable, why do you then have such negative judgements of her previous sexual activity?



hurt and alone said:


> I am also finding it hard to be attracted to someone who lied to me for so long. I am finding it hard to be attracted to someone who disrespected me by lying to me. I find it hard to be attracted to someone who disrespected my values (she knew I was not interested in being with a woman who slept around freely as she had done prior to marriage).


Totally justified on your part.




hurt and alone said:


> The problem is that I sometimes see the dishonesty and the “skank” side of her showing through. This is not an all the time phenomenon. There are times that I see past these ugly characteristics and see someone I am attracted to.


Again there is the judgement of her history when you use the word "skank". I do wonder if it is the events which are bothering you or if it is something slightly different. I wonder if you are attaching your anger and hurt from her dishonesty to her sexual activity. Are you subconsciously moving your anger from her dishonesty (and all that it implies about her level of respect for you) onto her sexual activities. Or are you hurt by her lack of sex with you and thus are angry about her being sexual with others?




hurt and alone said:


> I am having a hard time with trusting her. She says that she has never cheated on me, but with the very long stretches between us having sex, where was she having her physical needs met?


Given your descriptions, she does not sound high drive. I could believe she has little interest in sex and thus there is no reason to believe she's being skanking around behind your back. Nevertheless, I understand how the destruction of trust makes you question everything. But I think you are over reacting on this one.




hurt and alone said:


> The long history of deceit and multiple lies cast a shadow of doubt over everything she has ever told me. I'm not even sure I believe the version of her past that she is telling me now.


Sure, and she may not be telling you the entire truth yet. How important is it that you know the full truth, vs knowing she is today trustworthy? Do you really need to know if there were other men or other acts? Or do you need to get back that feeling of security in your relationship? Either or both are ok, but your next step depends on you knowing which it is.




hurt and alone said:


> She now says that she was forcing herself to not think about sex for fear that if we had sex, I might bring up her past and she would accidentally reveal that she had been lying to me.


Possibly true if you were interrogating her about her past every time you got naked with her! She would develop a negative association with sex. However, your words indicate she still doesn't understand the gravity of intentionally deceiving you about something important. Her statement should end with "but now I know how wrong it was to keep it from you".


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

soccermom2three said:


> So instead of complaining over posts on thread, why don't you give advice to the OP? What should he do?


My advice is pretty simple and I would have thought pretty obvious....divorce her. 20 years founded on complete lies. That isn't a foundation.

My question still stands. Why is it ok to lie to get a guy to marry a woman, to take away his free choice and autonomy?


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Self-fulfilling prophecy.

Anyway, I agree with Thor on many points, the main one being, I also think she is LD. Where is she having her sexual needs met? Answer: what needs. As with any LD person, no doubt she could go months/years without feeling that no sex was a problem for her. For LD people, sex is a choice, not a requirement.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

breeze said:


> Of course, he has to accept responsibility for his choices. We all do. There's no doubt in my mind that there were other choices of partners if he'd cared to look, however, it may be that he knew those women he wanted wouldn't accept someone with his baggage (the whole issue over previous sexual partners stuff).
> 
> He wanted his insecurities to be seen as moral superiority, so he picked someone with whom he could feel morally superior.
> 
> ...


You're right, she is the same person: a liar. Someone that took away his choice to be with who he wanted 20 years ago because she was selfish and wanted what SHE wanted. The fact that you are trying to pass her lying off on him and make it something that he did wrong just reeks of blameshifting and you making excuses for his wife to make it ok for her to lie to him in the first place. Fact is, from his words, he laid out his criteria quite clearly and she blatantly lied about it to him in order to stay with him. He didn't settle, he took her at her word and trusted her.....you know, that thing you are supposed to be able to do with the person you are going to marry.

God forbid, huh.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

Personal said:


> It's not dismissive it's practical and realistic.
> 
> Real life isn't a sheltered workshop where everything is safe and fair, bad things happen all the time.
> 
> ...


Your whole post reads of dismissing the whole of her lies.

I simply love the double standard on this board. If it had been a man that was lying to a woman, he would have been roasted to a crisp in here already. It's a woman, so people are tripping over themselves to make excuses why it is ok for her to lie and why he needs to just get over it.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> Principles for re-establishing respect: Once a couple has fallen into a pattern of treating each other disrespectfully it is often difficult to change. If both spouses or partners are angry and hostile towards each other a standoff may ensue, with neither partner willing to change his/her behavior until the other changes. Similarly, if one person makes a good faith effort to change things, this effort may go unnoticed or may even be rebuffed. To help couples re-establish respect we draw on two basic principles: (1) only work on changing your own behavior; and (2) do not police your partner’s behavior. Specifically, we work with you to recognize that given the level of tension in your relationship it is unlikely that either you or your partner can effectively influence each other. Instead, we encourage both of you to focus on your own behavior: follow the golden rule, and treat your partner as you would like to be treated. In addition, we focus with you on working to only police your own behavior. The temptation to correct your partner's behavior may be great, but it is unlikely to work, at this stage. Once a greater level of respect has been established couples can then begin to work on how they can communicate more effectively, make requests, solve problems, and accept differences.


Re-establishing Respect: The Key to Successful Relationship Repair


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

altawa said:


> You're right, she is the same person: a liar. Someone that took away his choice to be with who he wanted 20 years ago because she was selfish and wanted what SHE wanted. The fact that you are trying to pass her lying off on him and make it something that he did wrong just reeks of blameshifting and you making excuses for his wife to make it ok for her to lie to him in the first place. Fact is, from his words, he laid out his criteria quite clearly and she blatantly lied about it to him in order to stay with him. He didn't settle, he took her at her word and trusted her.....you know, that thing you are supposed to be able to do with the person you are going to marry.
> 
> God forbid, huh.


He made his choice, she didn't take it away. Whether it was 4 people or 2 she slept with, she was still honest enough to show what she thought of herself. Every other guy who met her could see it as plain as day. She didn't value herself.

Guy 1: This girl doesn't value herself, I'm just going to f*ck her
Guy 2: This girl doesn't value herself, I'm just going to f*ck her
Guy 3: This girl doesn't value herself, I'm going to marry her

Girl finally meets a guy who makes it clear he's *not* one who is just with someone to f*ck them, that he likes her without her having to take her clothes off, BUT, makes it clear that she's worthless to him if she doesn't value herself. He picked someone who didn't value herself, tells her he values her for something other than sex, but then tells her he won't value her if she tells him she's had sex. So she gives him enough detail to make it obvious to anyone (ANYONE!) that she in fact didn't value herself in past situations, he's leery, so she tries to make it a bit more palatable for him.

Later down the track she thinks it's been long enough that she can let out the whole truth without him having a fit, and now it's not the number that is the deal breaker, it's the lie. She's still caught up in the fear of the number and probably doesn't even see the lie as the bigger 'sin'.

Really, she was damned if she did, and damned if she didn't, and the fact that he chose someone who felt she had stuff all choices of partners who would accept her for something other than sex means she didn't have the courage to discard the one she'd thought she'd found.

What would have happened if he'd chosen someone who valued herself? He would've shown his hangups about her sexual past, which she was entirely comfortable with, and she'd have kicked him to the curb.

As far as I'm concerned, he played mind games with her and she lied. Both are bad choices.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

Personal said:


> I would write the same thing if hurt and alone was a woman, no double standards!
> 
> Men and women get hurt in the same ways, hanging on to hurt for a long time is corrosive and unhealthy for all.
> 
> You seem to have a lot of anger about this, if this is the case. I encourage you to get over it and let it go. The world is still turning so you may as well get on with life.


Like I said, tired of the double standards. Go through the forums and read the posts. Man lies....roast him. Woman lies....its ok, it was none of his business anyway. Man needs to get over it. As for me being angry....don't you worry about me.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

Noble1 said:


> Sorry to hear about your situation.
> 
> Like other issues, its not really the "issue" that is the problem, its the lie and dishonesty that is kept up for so long that is the real issue.
> 
> ...


No, I don't think she really understands why she lied. She just says that she was trying to present the best version of herself.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> I agree that moving will not make either of you any happier.
> 
> If you are not ready to divorce her, than I think you would do well to get into individual counseling to deal with all the stuff raddling around in your head.
> 
> ...


Along with marriage counseling, we're both going as individuals to counseling for help. I am looking for a way to forgive the dishonesty, but I'm having a hard time with it due to the length of time the lie was carried on.

My problem isn't so much with the number, it's with the casual circumstances involved. 

I'm not really looking for divorce at this time.

Thanks for the response.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

intheory said:


> hurt and alone,
> 
> Your wife's previous sexual encounters sound kind of shallow and unsatisfying.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your thoughts. I don't know her reason. She just keeps saying it was because she was young and stupid.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

breeze said:


> He made his choice, she didn't take it away. Whether it was 4 people or 2 she slept with, she was still honest enough to show what she thought of herself. Every other guy who met her could see it as plain as day. She didn't value herself.
> 
> Guy 1: This girl doesn't value herself, I'm just going to f*ck her
> Guy 2: This girl doesn't value herself, I'm just going to f*ck her
> ...


Have you completely lost your mind? He made his choice......BASED OFF OF A LIE. You keep forgetting that part, which is key to this whole thing. So, no, he didn't make an INFORMED DECISION. He got lied to so she could get what she wanted. He was very clear in what he wanted. She knew it and knew that if she told the truth, he would dump her. She knew that 2 was pushing it and 3 was too much, that is why she throttled it back at the beginning and held to it FOR YEARS. She waited until she figured he was too far invested in the marriage for him to go anywhere to tell the truth. As to your question at the end, we will never know because he never got the chance....he was screwed out of that by her.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

Happilymarried25 said:


> Why does it matter what your wife did sexually before you two were mariied? She didn't cheat on you. You shouldn have asked about her past it's none of your business. Most people do lie about how many sexual partners they have been with. Men add partners and women subtract partners. I think you are just resentful because she won't have sex with you and that's not a good reason to break up your family.


I understand that many people lie (as she did to me). However, I disagree with you and feel that it is my business. I feel that honesty should be the foundation of any relationship. I was and still have been completely honest about who I was and who I am. 

I feel that her sexual past is a moral characteristic that I should be able to judge just as any other characteristic. If you don't find redheads attractive, you can exclude them from your selections. If you don't like tall women, you can exclude them from your picks. If you don't like xyz characteristic, you exclude them from your dating pool. I do not find a woman who has no problem with casual sex encounters attractive. When I was single and in the barracks, I was 19-20 years old, incredibly horny. There were plenty of women who made themselves available to me, but I did not find that characteristic attractive so I denied their offers of a casual encounter. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with casual encounters, I just don't find it an attractive feature in a woman. No offense intended for redheads (whom I do find attractive) or tall women.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I bet you would find many many women would do the same. If they think you are going to get angry or lose respect for them, they will lie.

One thing is for certain. She will and has lied about anything that might upset you or make you uncomfortable around her. Bet on it. So, you no longer have to trust her. Check anything important for yourself. Find the answers on your own, then ask her. You can learn who she really is that way and figure out what you can live with. In the mean time, spice up the bedroom and take advantage of her experiences. She's probably more open than you thought. What do you have to lose, the respect of a woman who doesn't respect you enough to tell the truth? pfft...Just don't abuse her in doing so.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

Wolf1974 said:


> This is going to be hard decision making and you need to think through all angles. On the one hand I would be furious with this lie that went on for years and years. Would I divorce over it....maybe, guess I would have to be there and feel it to know if that was the right thing. Fact is she lied, about something she knew was important to you, that is a marriage by deception on my book.
> 
> 
> So suppose you divorce...you have to be around what 40 now. Any woman you will meet now will like have far greater than 4 sexual partners and a huge past. Point is if this is still going to be a Hangup for you you're going to struggle with dating post divorce. Things wont be all green grass on that side of the field i can assure you
> ...


I did think about the fact that maybe she thought it would be a trigger for me to leave. However she's the one that finally spoke up to get us to counseling and she's putting more effort into the counseling exercises than me. She seems to want it to work more than me on most days. I guess I'm less motivated because in the end I'm still going to be with someone who gave me 19 years of mediocre marriage (despite her saying that she wants to make our marriage fantastic from this point forward).

I'm not going to cheat. I don't want that emotional baggage to carry around.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

breeze said:


> I can understand why you would be so upset. Lying is unacceptable. For someone to lie to their partner makes me wonder if there's something fundamentally wrong with their moral compass. Does it not work? Are they broken in some way? How are they capable of it?
> 
> When DH and I got together, we had a brief discussion at some point about previous partners. It never even occurred to either of us to be deceitful over it, HOWEVER, neither of us placed any great importance on the subject.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your thoughts. I agree that I need to learn to live with my choice. I'm trying to do that, but I think I need to learn to forgive for the dishonesty first.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

altawa said:


> And why is it that when these things come up, everybody is so quick to ignore the impetus to the problem and stick their heads in the sand about it? She directly lied to him for 20 years. She took his autonomy and free choice away, but those are dismissed and people act like 'whatever, just get over it and move on'.
> 
> I am so tired of the dismissive attitudes where men can be lied to and it is ok as long as it was for 'a good reason'. It's bullsh!t.


Yes, I've heard a lot of this. I do feel that she took away my choice in the matter of my marriage to her. That does hurt quite a bit. I was young and could have found someone with similar values to mine. Twenty years later, that will be more difficult.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> P.S. Lying about sex history to land a spouse is both juvenile and pathetic. She needs to explore herself in that regard.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can't it possibly be really regretful and self-preserving?


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

Thor said:


> H&A, welcome aboard. Your post was too long for me to digest it all in one go. There are couple of key points in it which make your situation unusual. 1) You were a virgin when you met your wife. 2) She had very limited experience with PIV before you (according to her initial disclosures).
> 
> The first point does make you pretty unusual here. I was also a virgin when I met my wife. She admitted to 3 long term boyfriends she had sex with before me. We met in college. Married 30+ years now. In recent years a lot more came to light about her past. I've been through a lot of the same thought processes you are describing in your posts.
> 
> ...


I was not a virgin and had slept with one other partner after we were engaged. It was intentional that I had only slept with one other person. It is not a religious reason, only a moral reason.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Can't it possibly be really regretful and self-preserving?


No.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

Thor said:


> Perhaps he has a value system around sex which makes a person's history important to him. So he had "the talk" with her before marriage to suss out her values and her view of sexuality. He believed she held a compatible set of values to his.
> 
> When he later found out she had lied to him about _who she was_, it destroyed his view of her. Previously she had been his loving loyal trustworthy honest wife. Now she is a liar who intentionally deceived him the entire length of their marriage. If she wasn't who she said she was, _who is she_? If she would lie to him about such an important topic, _what else has she lied to him about_.
> 
> ...


This is exactly the problem. It is the broken trust. I know I need to forgive, but she also needs to work on the restoration of trust.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

manfromlamancha said:


> OP have you discussed these things with your wife:
> 
> 
> She seems like a sexual person (based on her ability and desire to have sex without emotional attachment) so how is she getting her needs met now ?
> ...


I don't know how she is getting her needs met now. It's been pretty cold between us. She does not masturbate. The entire time we've been together it's been long stretches of no sex. She says she just does not think about sex.

She says she lied so that she could present the very best version of herself.

She says that she came clean because she felt like I could handle the truth. She also said that the burden of deceit was really starting to bother her.

She says that she really wants to stay in the marriage.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

breeze said:


> Of course, he has to accept responsibility for his choices. We all do. There's no doubt in my mind that there were other choices of partners if he'd cared to look, however, it may be that he knew those women he wanted wouldn't accept someone with his baggage (the whole issue over previous sexual partners stuff).
> 
> He wanted his insecurities to be seen as moral superiority, so he picked someone with whom he could feel morally superior.
> 
> ...


I agree that the lack of sex, lack of interest in the marriage, and my resentment are big issues. We are trying to work on those in counseling.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

altawa said:


> Have you completely lost your mind? He made his choice......BASED OFF OF A LIE. You keep forgetting that part, which is key to this whole thing. So, no, he didn't make an INFORMED DECISION. He got lied to so she could get what she wanted. He was very clear in what he wanted. She knew it and knew that if she told the truth, he would dump her. She knew that 2 was pushing it and 3 was too much, that is why she throttled it back at the beginning and held to it FOR YEARS. She waited until she figured he was too far invested in the marriage for him to go anywhere to tell the truth. As to your question at the end, we will never know because he never got the chance....he was screwed out of that by her.


He made his choice before the lie ever came into being. He chose a vulnerable and emotionally damaged woman, built her up to believe she'd found someone who loved her for herself, and didn't just want to have sex with her, then told her she was worthless to him after all, because of sex. You think he's some sort of saint who was lied to. Poor man. I don't see him that way at all. I don't respect her decisions, I could never be her, but I sure as hell don't respect hiis decisions either.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

Thor said:


> Look at the good side of this, which is that she decided to tell you the truth. This shows some growth and some feeling of guilt on her part for not telling you sooner.
> 
> I want you to really think about this next question: Why is it important to you that she had an orgasm with someone else?
> 
> ...


Thank you for your thoughts. I wasn't interrogating every time, but I did occasionally question her. Before I knew the truth, there was a significant amount of feelings of rejection whenever she would just roll over and go to sleep and show no interest in sex. I would frequently think "Wow, you can sleep with someone you have no interest in having a relationship with, but you can't show interest in sleeping with your husband!" Now that I know the truth, it had made those feelings of rejection amplified.

More than anything, I need to know that she is trustworthy today.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

breeze said:


> He made his choice before the lie ever came into being. He chose a vulnerable and emotionally damaged woman, built her up to believe she'd found someone who loved her for herself, and didn't just want to have sex with her, then told her she was worthless to him after all, because of sex. You think he's some sort of saint who was lied to. Poor man. I don't see him that way at all. I don't respect her decisions, I could never be her, but I sure as hell don't respect hiis decisions either.


No, actually he didn't. If you go back and read the OP, she started lying when they were getting serious about marriage and started talking about pasts as to determine compatibility....that was after she had done 4 other dudes and almost done a 5th. She continued this into the military required pre marital counseling sessions and on into their marriage for 20 years. Nice that you choose to bash the OP, who didnt lie and from what we can tell clearly laid out his criteria for a compatible partner.....you choose to bash the one that got lied to.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> Re-establishing Respect: The Key to Successful Relationship Repair


Thank you for the link!


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

breeze said:


> He made his choice before the lie ever came into being. He chose a vulnerable and emotionally damaged woman, built her up to believe she'd found someone who loved her for herself, and didn't just want to have sex with her, then told her she was worthless to him after all, because of sex. You think he's some sort of saint who was lied to. Poor man. I don't see him that way at all. I don't respect her decisions, I could never be her, but I sure as hell don't respect hiis decisions either.


When I met her I didn't feel that she was emotionally damaged. When I met her she came across as having a very high self esteem and as being a very strong woman. Those were qualities that I found very attractive in her. I also valued the fact that she didn't make herself available for sex after the first date, or the second, or the third. It was many weeks before we had sex. I fell so hard for her before we had sex that I knew she was going to be the one before we even had sex. She also knew I was the one for her before we had sex because , unbeknownst to me, she purchased her wedding dress about 2 months into our dating (but before the sex talk).


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Can't it possibly be really regretful and self-preserving?


I have to say it might be both. It is still juvenile and pathetic to get a spouse that way.

Anyone who lies to get someone to marry them is in no way ready for the demands of a marriage.

It is for grown ups and this woman obviously hadn't dealt with her issues and still hasn't.

It really is quite awful to think lying is acceptable to get someone to agree to marry you.

Most have done things they regret, this poster included, but you have to face your bad choices to move beyond them.

I wouldn't have looked twice at Mrs. Conan when she was 18. She has done things that most posters here, or their spouses, would have never done. 

I met her 13 years later and her track record truly sucked but she didn't hide it from me and was not that person anymore.

She has been a fantastic wife but if she thought lying to me was a good idea she would have shown me she wasn't what I was looking for. An adult.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

hurt and alone said:


> When I met her I didn't feel that she was emotionally damaged. When I met her she came across as having a very high self esteem and as being a very strong woman. Those were qualities that I found very attractive in her. I also valued the fact that she didn't make herself available for sex after the first date, or the second, or the third. It was many weeks before we had sex. I fell so hard for her before we had sex that I knew she was going to be the one before we even had sex. She also knew I was the one for her before we had sex because , unbeknownst to me, she purchased her wedding dress about 2 months into our dating (but before the sex talk).


Fair enough, I can see how you may not have made the choice deliberately, but I think that the effect was the same. You did make her feel loved and valued, and that's great, but then you made it clear you didn't (or wouldn't if she gave the whole truth), because of sex? Really? Do you think that is honest?

"I love you, or will love you, except if you tell me you're what I consider to be a dirty skank, then I won't." Is this really love? Is this admirable?


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

breeze said:


> Fair enough, I can see how you may not have made the choice deliberately, but I think that the effect was the same. You did make her feel loved and valued, and that's great, but then you made it clear you didn't (or wouldn't if she gave the whole truth), because of sex? Really? Do you think that is honest?
> 
> "I love you, or will love you, except if you tell me you're what I consider to be a dirty skank, then I won't." Is this really love? Is this admirable?


God forbid he has his own standards. Who are you to come in here and judge him for having his own personal standards for who he wants to spend his life with?

Like I said, if this was a woman, everybody would be saying 'dont **** shame her', but since it is a man it is fine to shame him for his beliefs.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> "I love you, or will love you, except if you tell me you're what I consider to be a dirty skank, then I won't."


~except if you want children
~except if you have been in prison
~except if you are poor
~except if you don't brush your teeth

Or any other reason that can be thought of in a minute or less.




> Is this really love? Is this admirable?


Love is doing nice things for someone you care about. An easy way to understand is to look up the word, "charity", in the dictionary. That is what love looks like to the person we are in love with. Of course, with variations depending on the individual.

It is admirable to know your own boundaries and make them known to the person you intend to create a life-long bond with and have children who will need to be taught and trained. It is easier to attempt this with someone who is compatible and complementary(that doesn't mean someone who tells you nice things. It means,


> ...combining in such a way as to enhance or emphasize the qualities of each other or another.
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=com...57.2942j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8


Doesn't seem like they are complementary when they have to lie to each other because they don't accept each other's lives. I think it's a worse offense to tell that lie when it is going to affect another's extremely important decisions about life and how they choose to live it. 

No one should have to tell every little thing, but just in general be truthful enough to allow the other person to make an honest decision. Seems like his wife has been living a lie. It's a fairy tale life for her as long as the clock doesn't strike twelve. I guess it has now and the ball is over. Her prince will have to find her again. He did once and could have been given the opportunity to show what kind of man he is....how mature. 

So now, she only has herself to blame. She could have found someone who was just fine with her past. The whole thing is really sad and extremely needless. I actually am on both their sides. They both got screwed.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

hurt and alone said:


> Thank you for your thoughts. I wasn't interrogating every time, but I did occasionally question her. Before I knew the truth, there was a significant amount of feelings of rejection whenever she would just roll over and go to sleep and show no interest in sex. I would frequently think "Wow, you can sleep with someone you have no interest in having a relationship with, but you can't show interest in sleeping with your husband!" Now that I know the truth, it had made those feelings of rejection amplified.
> 
> More than anything, I need to know that she is trustworthy today.


See i think you're getting to the heart of the issue here. She had no problem giving it up to men who, according to her, meant nothing. But for her husband, nothing. It's a warped value system. She wasn't presenting the best version of herself, she was presenting a false version. The best version means made up and on best behavior, not lies about who you are. 

I think the key for you to get past it is two fold; first, you need her to be invested in you sexually. Second, and probably the bigger issue, is that she needs to understand why the lying is such a big deal. Right now she doesn't, and the fact that she chose to unburden herself after 20 years smacks of selfishness. I'd bet she's selfish in other ways too. If she could get to the point where she understands why the lies are such a big deal you might have a chance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

That's not all love is to me, but this will be different for everyone. It's good to be upfront with someone about what you can and cannot live with. DH asked me if I wanted kids and how many on our first date. There's a whole big list of deal breakers for most people, usually dealt with before you even get to dating, or in the very early stages.

I just can't help but see this as a self-fulfilling prophecy though. This issue keeps coming up. Why are the ones that have such a huge problem with a person's sexual past the ones that end up with people who hide their sexual pasts? I can see where his choices led him. Doesn't excuse her lying of course, but that doesn't mean he didn't make those choices. One: He could've chosen to dump her based on what she told him. Clearly what she initially revealed didn't meet his 'standards'. I don't think he's being truthful with himself, and even to this day; if he'd felt they were reasonable, I think he would have had more courage of his convictions. Two: He could've asked about these things much earlier. Might've scared her off, but if it did, so be it.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

This is where men just don't get it. Here is an obviously LD woman. She didn't 'give it up' because she was being herself with them and a lie with him. It's the other way around. She *doesn't* see sex as something wonderful. She met a guy who didn't want her to want sex. Fan bloody tastic.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

breeze said:


> That's not all love is to me, but this will be different for everyone. It's good to be upfront with someone about what you can and cannot live with. DH asked me if I wanted kids and how many on our first date. There's a whole big list of deal breakers for most people, usually dealt with before you even get to dating, or in the very early stages.
> 
> I just can't help but see this as a self-fulfilling prophecy though. This issue keeps coming up. Why are the ones that have such a huge problem with a person's sexual past the ones that end up with people who hide their sexual pasts? I can see where his choices led him. Doesn't excuse her lying of course, but that doesn't mean he didn't make those choices. One: He could've chosen to dump her based on what she told him. Clearly what she initially revealed didn't meet his 'standards'. I don't think he's being truthful with himself, and even to this day; if he'd felt they were reasonable, I think he would have had more courage of his convictions. Two: He could've asked about these things much earlier. Might've scared her off, but if it did, so be it.





> I would sometimes ask about her past, but she was consistent in her answers. She had slept with 2 other men, she used condoms every time, she never had an orgasm with the others, she had never given or received oral sex. She reassured me that I was the only one who had given her an orgasm, that I was the only one she had performed oral sex on, that I was the only one she had ever had unprotected sex with. I came to believe that she was telling me the truth and never really put much thought into the matter.


He did ask her....on top of asking her at the counselors and prior to their marriage. She consistently lied. You just can't get over blaming him for her lying.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

OP

I support the idea that a persons sexual past IS their future spouse' business. the magnitude of her lie does not seem to equal that of your resentment. she told you she had casual sex with 2 guys in 6 months and that bothered you, but you wanted to marry her anyway. 19 years later she admits it was 4 men. but how significant is that? she laid the main theme on you from the very beginning -- that she has a limited and strangely casual sexual history prior to you.

seems like you're misdirecting here. her lies aren't the issue its the sexual rejection during your marriage plus some other things I sense you haven't chosen to mention......

besides sex are there other problems? suspicion of affairs. close male friends, emotional abuse....what?


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

altawa said:


> He did ask her....on top of asking her at the counselors and prior to their marriage. She consistently lied. You just can't get over blaming him for her lying.


No, you are missing my point. I'm not blaming him for her lying, I'm blaming him for being in the situation to begin with. I've put myself in situations that led to me being hurt, but admitting to your own mistakes is the hardest part as it means you have to accept responsibility for partly causing your own pain.

Add to that, you completely keep ignoring the fact that what she did tell the truth about actually didn't meet the standards he says he insisted upon.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

In light of what you have said I now think that the real issue is why she is not interested in having sex with you.


OK so it seems pretty clear as to why she lied to you. She came across as this strong attractive woman who doesn't have sex on the first few dates. If she then told you the truth about her (in my opinion, pretty tame but not in keeping with the image) past, it would shoot down this image. So she went into damage limitation - not honest but understandable at least.


She must have been in love with you to marry you, right? Or could it be that she was just looking for a husband? Could it be that you were stable and she settled for you? Sorry to be harsh, but you were there, so only you know.


And then when she did have sex with you, was it wild and passionate or soft and tender, or was it cold and let's get it over with? In short, was she always cold towards sex? Was she putting on an act to snare you? Or did she truly enjoy sex with you, genuinely had an orgasm etc and then mysteriously changed after marriage?


And now, when she does have sex with you, does she enjoy it? Have orgasms? Or cold fish?


You really need to get down to the bottom of this - why she doesn't want to have sex with you. It could be a matter of trust - she gets it elsewhere and/or is simply not attracted to you. Or she has other issues which need professional help.


Perhaps bringing up this (and only this) issue with counsellors will help. Forget about her past and lying for now - focus on this and I believe you will find it most productive and helpful.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

breeze said:


> That's not all love is to me, but this will be different for everyone. It's good to be upfront with someone about what you can and cannot live with. DH asked me if I wanted kids and how many on our first date. There's a whole big list of deal breakers for most people, usually dealt with before you even get to dating, or in the very early stages.
> 
> I just can't help but see this as a self-fulfilling prophecy though. This issue keeps coming up. *Why are the ones that have such a huge problem with a person's sexual past the ones that end up with people who hide their sexual pasts?* I can see where his choices led him. Doesn't excuse her lying of course, but that doesn't mean he didn't make those choices. One: He could've chosen to dump her based on what she told him. Clearly what she initially revealed didn't meet his 'standards'. I don't think he's being truthful with himself, and even to this day; if he'd felt they were reasonable, I think he would have had more courage of his convictions. Two: He could've asked about these things much earlier. Might've scared her off, but if it did, so be it.


Because when you have standard you aren't willing to bend on the other person either fits that mold or they have to lie to fit the mold. I think the other spouse looks at the standard and thinks it isn't a big deal, but if I tell them the truth it will be a big deal, so I will just not tell the truth to keep the peace. What strikes me is how many threads of these type do we get where marriages are destroyed because someone lied. The lesson learned is always be upfront first. If you can't get on the same page when its first all on the table at least you haven't wasted 20 years of your life.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

breeze said:


> Fair enough, I can see how you may not have made the choice deliberately, but I think that the effect was the same. You did make her feel loved and valued, and that's great, but then you made it clear you didn't (or wouldn't if she gave the whole truth), because of sex? Really? Do you think that is honest?
> 
> "I love you, or will love you, except if you tell me you're what I consider to be a dirty skank, then I won't." Is this really love? Is this admirable?


I don't know about admirable. Truly Love? It can be. I think it goes back to morals and character. Suppose you meet someone, fall in love, and then later find out they were a "xyz". You are opposed to dating someone who is a "xyz". Would you continue? "Xyz" could be anything...rapist, murderer, redhead, or just someone who slept around.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> ~except if you want children
> ~except if you have been in prison
> ~except if you are poor
> ~except if you don't brush your teeth
> ...


Thank you for your thoughts. I'm actually hoping she can find the prince again. I am trying to forgive. I am trying to put effort into "us". But I am hurt and am truly disgusted by her choice to lie to me about this.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> See i think you're getting to the heart of the issue here. She had no problem giving it up to men who, according to her, meant nothing. But for her husband, nothing. It's a warped value system. She wasn't presenting the best version of herself, she was presenting a false version. The best version means made up and on best behavior, not lies about who you are.
> 
> I think the key for you to get past it is two fold; first, you need her to be invested in you sexually. Second, and probably the bigger issue, is that she needs to understand why the lying is such a big deal. Right now she doesn't, and the fact that she chose to unburden herself after 20 years smacks of selfishness. I'd bet she's selfish in other ways too. If she could get to the point where she understands why the lies are such a big deal you might have a chance.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you. I haven't seen her to be selfish it other ways. I will ask her if she understands why lying was such a big deal to me.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

nuclearnightmare said:


> OP
> 
> I support the idea that a persons sexual past IS their future spouse' business. the magnitude of her lie does not seem to equal that of your resentment. she told you she had casual sex with 2 guys in 6 months and that bothered you, but you wanted to marry her anyway. 19 years later she admits it was 4 men. but how significant is that? she laid the main theme on you from the very beginning -- that she has a limited and strangely casual sexual history prior to you.
> 
> ...


Plenty of feelings of rejection. No suspicion of affairs until she told me the real truth which cast a shadow of doubt over things. No close male friends. No abuse of any type.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

Wolf1974 said:


> Because when you have standard you aren't willing to bend on the other person either fits that mold or they have to lie to fit the mold. I think the other spouse looks at the standard and thinks it isn't a big deal, but if I tell them the truth it will be a big deal, so I will just not tell the truth to keep the peace. What strikes me is how many threads of these type do we get where marriages are destroyed because someone lied. The lesson learned is always be upfront first. If you can't get on the same page when its first all on the table at least you haven't wasted 20 years of your life.


I agree with what you say. I had a standard that she lied to meet. I know that if we divorce I will meet women who have more significant histories than my present wife. This has somewhat forced my standard to change. However, my standard of honesty hasn't changed. That is the problem with the current marriage...lack of honesty. Maybe she is telling the truth now, but I don't know. I just feel like a chump for believing the lies for so long and for settling for a mediocre life when I could have potentially had better.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

hurt, 

Does it feel like you aren't sure now how many lies she's told over the years? Do you spend time thinking about the things you've done with her and how many of those things were her idea and you were tricked into believing they were what you wanted?

Edit: Do you wonder if you ever got anything you wanted or if you were manipulated into acceptance? Do you wonder if you even know who you are any more? Do you sometimes consider that you've lost yourself and are just an agreeable puppet controlled by your wife?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

hurt and alone said:


> I agree with what you say. I had a standard that she lied to meet. I know that if we divorce I will meet women who have more significant histories than my present wife. This has somewhat forced my standard to change. However, my standard of honesty hasn't changed. That is the problem with the current marriage...lack of honesty. Maybe she is telling the truth now, but I don't know. I just feel like a chump for believing the lies for so long and for settling for a mediocre life when I could have potentially had better.


Then what I hear you saying is that you are between a rock and a hard place. Having been lied to in marriage I know how painful this is. I can't be with liars Because my mind races with I caught them in this lie what about every lie I missed or didn't catch. I wouldn't want my life to constantly be wondering and investigating. Exhausting is the only word that comes to Mind.

Tough position .


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Hey man I get where you're coming from about her not being honest. It was poor judgement on her part. That being said, there's a lot of pressure for a woman to doctor her past fearing judgement. That pressure combined with the fact that we're all flawed leads to a lot of marriages with resentment. In this case you resent that she lied. She's probably felt like you would judge her if you knew her past and I bet that's created with resentment or insecurity in her as well.

I think we try to oversimplify things sometimes and we certainly look for easy targets for our problems. I remember blaming my failing marriage 100% on my ex. I told myself that I was doing everything to make it work. But looking I didn't even like who she was so I wasn't really trying all that hard. So here's a question. Do you respect who your wife is, like who she is, admire who she is? If not then don't even worry about her past because it's not the problem.

Also I'm glad you've reached the point where you're not willing to beg for sex because no one should beg for sex IMO. That's the quickest path to making someone not want to be with you. Intimacy is a boundary issue where you speak up if your needs aren't met and decide what you're willing to live with or not. Then it's the other person's choice to either meet that need or not meet it knowing that it might be a show stopper and ultimately the end of the relationship. No one is force or guilted that way.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

hurt and alone said:


> Yes, I've heard a lot of this. I do feel that she took away my choice in the matter of my marriage to her. That does hurt quite a bit. I was young and could have found someone with similar values to mine. Twenty years later, that will be more difficult.





hurt and alone said:


> This is exactly the problem. It is the broken trust. I know I need to forgive, but she also needs to work on the restoration of trust.


Ok, we're on a clearer playing field here now.

1) She has a different outlook on sex than you do. It just is who she is. Which means she isn't going to change. Sex in your marriage will never be the same as it was before, but that doesn't mean it can't be as good or as meaningful for you. You can't expect her to have the same kind of emotional connection with sex, though. I think you need to discuss this with her, and pursue something like "5 Love Languages" to get your emotional needs met. If touch and quality time are high on your list, find ways other than sex to get those buttons pushed. Sex does encompass all the Love Languages, but now that sex will be different you need to find additional ways to get those Love Languages satisfied.

2) You are definitely making a value judgement on her previous sex life. I am in a bit of a minority here on TAM (and in the real world) as one who believes we have the right and obligation to judge other people. In this context of her sex history, I don't think shaming her is justified. She just has a _different_ outlook on sex. You can legitimately judge her view as different and, at least at the time you were dating her, it turns out it was _not compatible_ with yours.

SimplyAmorous posted a great link but I have long lost it on the different views of sex. You have a Sacred or Romantic view. Your wife has a more Fun view. She doesn't get the emotional charge out of sex that you do, nor does she see it as something Sacred to be kept restricted outside of a close loving relationship. With the length of your marriage, I think she has now shown her view can be compatible with yours _as long as you don't need her to have the same experience with sex as you do_.

3) The broken trust is a 2 pronged problem. One is her belief system that it was ok to take away your ability to make a fully informed decision about something deeply important to you (who you married). The second is the general issue of trust.

She has to at some point explain to you that she understands what she did to you, and she believes it was wrong _to manipulate you by hiding important information from you_ for the purpose of getting what she wanted. She has to convince you that this kind of thing will never happen again. Without this kind of insight and change, _it will happen again_.

Aside from this specific behavior of hers, there may be no reason to dis-trust her. Nevertheless you will need her to work at being completely open and honest with you about everything.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

hurt and alone said:


> Thank you for your thoughts. I wasn't interrogating every time, but I did occasionally question her. Before I knew the truth, there was a significant amount of feelings of rejection whenever she would just roll over and go to sleep and show no interest in sex. I would frequently think "Wow, you can sleep with someone you have no interest in having a relationship with, but you can't show interest in sleeping with your husband!" Now that I know the truth, it had made those feelings of rejection amplified.


I think the disconnect is there because you still don't have a good understanding of what is really going on. Once you have the real truth, it will all make sense.

In my case it turned out my wife had been sexually abused as a child. I don't see anything in your case to make me think your wife was abused. When my wife told me, all of the pieces of the puzzle literally fell into place. Not just the sex but all sorts of things. 

In your case, I think your wife is a bit low-drive about sex and has a functional view of sex. To her, sex feels good and can be used to make babies or to generate approval/attention from men. This would explain some experimenting with sex as a young adult in the military. She was exposed to an environment and culture where easy sex was common, and was likely swayed by that, making it acceptable for her to try it out. Had she been in a less permissive situation she may not have had nearly the experiences she did in the military.

Once married, she was getting what she wanted from you without having to put out much. Low drive means she just doesn't think of sex all that often.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

breeze said:


> I just can't help but see this as a self-fulfilling prophecy though. This issue keeps coming up. *Why are the ones that have such a huge problem with a person's sexual past the ones that end up with people who hide their sexual pasts?*


Because those who really don't care about a person's sexual history don't ask them about it while dating. So when it turns out their spouse had a colorful history, they still don't care years later if the details become known.

Those who do care, ask about it. So when it turns out she lied, it becomes a problem both of the lie and of the history.

I expect there are many couples where nobody lied about their history and they don't have these problems in their marriage.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> She has a different outlook on sex than you do. It just is who she is. Which means she isn't going to change.





> She has to convince you that this kind of thing will never happen again. Without this kind of insight and change, it will happen again.


Should be easy to convince him. She has for twenty years. 

Somehow, he thought she was as excited about the emotional connection of sex as he was. That kind of lie is very difficult to recover from when it is discovered and why I posted as I did with the questions. 

My opinion is he needs to make a list of the things he has dreamt of doing and never done. Come back in a day, after hiding them so she can't find them and crossing off the ones that are ridiculous or illegal and attempting to do those he knows will push his boundaries a little and make him feel fulfilled.....without the help, direction or input from his wife. 

I think a regimen of doing some things for himself that make him aware that he has accomplished things and can trust himself will do much good for the relationship. I think he needs to make some decisions without her involvement, realize some personal gain and then take a look at his sex life and marriage. 

Anyway, I'm not saying you are wrong. I just don't think she will be capable of, or understand what changes he needs to see in her after twenty years. I don't think he will ever feel fulfilled with sex like he wanted and I believe what he has felt, has been a sham. It's clear she doesn't understand what he feels or how sex can mean something more than just a physical release. This is the biggest injustice in the lie. 

His best bet, at his age, is to form a fulfilling life of his own apart from his life with her and stay married. Just start doing things for himself. I think he will be surprised how she starts paying attention to him.

I don't mean for him to treat her poorly, just a little less attentive to needs that force him to be something he is not happy being, just a little less prone to agree with her every time she opens her mouth. In other words, be the man that he is and not as often, the one she trained for the last twenty years.

Edit: And when she does notice you doing things, she will step in and try to stop it. She likes you just the way you are. Be aware of that and stick to your path.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> Anyway, I'm not saying you are wrong. I just don't think she will be capable of, or understand what changes he needs to see in her after twenty years. I don't think he will ever feel fulfilled with sex like he wanted and I believe what he has felt, has been a sham. It's clear she doesn't understand what he feels or how sex can mean something more than just a physical release. This is the biggest injustice in the lie.
> 
> His best bet, at his age, is to form a fulfilling life of his own apart from his life with her and stay married. Just start doing things for himself. I think he will be surprised how she starts paying attention to him.


She does need to know how she has hurt him with the deception. While she will never feel the same about sex as he does, she can learn what his views are and learn to respect those views as being important to him. IOW, she can demonstrate she understands his position and that she cares about him.

I agree there is a big injustice here. It isn't just that her number was higher than h&a wanted in a wife, she led him to believe sex with him meant something very different than it really does. This is why I tell him sex with her will never be the same, but with the proper healing it can still be good.

His best bet? Idk about staying married. He is hosed either way. If he stays he is settling for someone different than he wants. I don't think his marriage can be fulfilling _unless some things change dramatically_. On the other hand he is unlikely to find another wife who doesn't have some significant baggage herself. That's one of the big injustices of what his wife did, she took away permanently his ability to have the kind of life partner he wanted.

I miss Machiavelli here. He would have a lot to say about h&a reorienting his life and thus igniting his wife's interest in him.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Thor said:


> She does need to know how she has hurt him with the deception. While she will never feel the same about sex as he does, she can learn what his views are and learn to respect those views as being important to him. IOW, she can demonstrate she understands his position and that she cares about him.
> 
> I agree there is a big injustice here. It isn't just that her number was higher than h&a wanted in a wife, she led him to believe sex with him meant something very different than it really does. This is why I tell him sex with her will never be the same, but with the proper healing it can still be good.
> 
> ...


If you read over what I wrote, you will see this is exactly what I was saying. I am concentrating on him doing the changing, since he cannot change her. I just don't believe she is capable of actually understanding his views on this. I think he would be wasting his time and effort to attempt to get her to understand through talk. Action is the only way to effect change in his marriage. I doubt she will change, but she may accept who he becomes, if he treats her with respect along the way. He does love her.


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## Kresaera (Nov 8, 2014)

**I skipped a lot of responses, so sorry if I'm repeating something that's already been said.**

I can understand why you are angry and hurt. I can understand wanting to know how many sexual partners your wife has had in the past. I cannot understand why on Earth you would want to know such intimate details about them. My husband could relate to you very well. I didn't lie to him about the number of partners I had before him (which is more than 4...) however, I was more sexually experienced than he was and that intimidated him. He asked questions, but not once did he ask for details about my orgasms or who performed oral on who and for how long etc. Frankly, that's nobody's business but hers and the people she was with at the time. 

There's only a couple things you can do in this situation. Accept it and work on your marriage or don't accept it and move on. (It being the lies of course) I honestly wouldn't pressure her into answering anymore questions about her past that you both know are just going to hurt you when she answers them. That's known as Pain Shopping, you're looking for things to hurt you because if you're still hurting, you can't really be hurt again. 

Good luck to you. Stay in Marriage counseling and find an individual counselor for yourself.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> I have to say it might be both. It is still juvenile and pathetic to get a spouse that way.


Agreed. A juvenile and pathetic way to deal with regret over your past and desire to self protect.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Agreed. A juvenile and pathetic way to deal with regret over your past and desire to self protect.


She could hide the truth from many and it wouldn't be harmful. It becomes deplorable to do it to get a mate. It moves beyond regret and self protection when you are getting someone to commit their life to you.

It then becomes manipulation for her benefit at the expense of someone else.

The manipulation is what I am focused on as the key offense.

She was not protecting herself by manipulating OP.

For the record, OPs wife is the Virgin Mary compared to Mrs. Conan.

Her history isn't the biggest issue but her will to manipulate is.

There are great catches out there, I am one &#55357;&#56833;, that aren't concerned with a woman's past but even we need honesty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

hurt and alone said:


> I agree with what you say. I had a standard that she lied to meet. I know that if we divorce I will meet women who have more significant histories than my present wife. This has somewhat forced my standard to change. However, my standard of honesty hasn't changed. That is the problem with the current marriage...lack of honesty. Maybe she is telling the truth now, but I don't know. I just feel like a chump for believing the lies for so long and for settling for a mediocre life when I could have potentially had better.


I cannot comprehend why you fixate on the 'lying', if you want to call it that. Everybody would want to present the best side when soliciting for something you want. It is custom in society. 

What would bother me is the personality issues she had about not valuing sex before you met and not after she married you. That caused you a lot of sexual frustration. You do not seem to want to investigate that. Is she just not into sex, or just not with you, or does she really not like sex very much. It looks like that to me.

The question would be for me: how to learn to have a good sex life, how to appreciate good sex, how to value the intimacy belonging to that.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Because when you have standard you aren't willing to bend on the other person either fits that mold or they have to lie to fit the mold. I think the other spouse looks at the standard and thinks it isn't a big deal, but if I tell them the truth it will be a big deal, so I will just not tell the truth to keep the peace. What strikes me is how many threads of these type do we get where marriages are destroyed because someone lied. The lesson learned is always be upfront first. If you can't get on the same page when its first all on the table at least you haven't wasted 20 years of your life.


I kind of agree. I guess I want to add if a guy has made a huge deal about a woman not be a virgin or having more partners than him, I could really see why a woman would lie. She's fallen in love, he's the one, but he goes on and on **** shaming, she panics, hence the lying or half truths. I'm not saying it's right or that it's his fault but it's reality.

If I was going to give a guy advice, I would tell him to shut up about virginity, how many partners and **** shaming. At the very least don't make a big deal about it and go on some high horse about it. Every comment you make about another woman sleeping around and when you ask your girlfriend her partner count, she's going to remember you **** shaming other women and that influences her answer.

ETA: That advice is for women too.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I just thought of an example of what I'm talking about.

My daughter had a teacher in high school. On the first day, he's telling everyone about himself and he says he's a huge USC fan and how UCLA is a stupid school, (the schools are big rivals), on and on. Then he talks about baseball being his favorite sport, (he's the varsity baseball coach), and how soccer is a stupid sport, it's not even a sport, on and on. 

Then he goes around the room and wants everyone to introduce themselves and state their interests. Well, my daughter's main interest is soccer, she's played since she was six. She loves it. When it's her turn, she makes something up and says nothing about soccer.

You can learn so much more from people if you just shut the heck up and listen and observe.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> I just thought of an example of what I'm talking about.
> 
> My daughter had a teacher in high school. On the first day, he's telling everyone about himself and he says he's a huge USC fan and how UCLA is a stupid school, (the schools are big rivals), on and on. Then he talks about baseball being his favorite sport, (he's the varsity baseball coach), and how soccer is a stupid sport, it's not even a sport, on and on.
> 
> ...


It's also good to learn to have thick skin, grin and stand up for yourself. People who are more comfortable and confident with themselves are more often accepted than not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I'm sorry that you missed my point.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> hurt,
> 
> Does it feel like you aren't sure now how many lies she's told over the years? Do you spend time thinking about the things you've done with her and how many of those things were her idea and you were tricked into believing they were what you wanted?
> 
> Edit: Do you wonder if you ever got anything you wanted or if you were manipulated into acceptance? Do you wonder if you even know who you are any more? Do you sometimes consider that you've lost yourself and are just an agreeable puppet controlled by your wife?


Yes, I question how many lies she has told over the years. I do not question that I was manipulated into doing things I didn't want to do. I know who I am and what I like. My goals and hobbies are similar to what they were before we met.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

Lila said:


> I can understand why you would be upset about the dishonesty but I can't understand how knowing that your wife had ONS's with 2 more lovers than your previously thought correlates to "settling for a mediocre life".
> 
> Why do you think her 3rd and 4th lovers + the extra orgasm prevented you from potentially having a better life?
> 
> How did learning about these extra lovers affect you ability to reach your potential?


The extra partners didn't prevent me from having a better life. She did. I feel that had she been honest things between us would have ended before marriage, or had I accepted her they would not have been weighed down by her baggage. I feel that our marriage has only been mediocre because she has spent most of her time mentally busy with protecting her secrets instead of being present with me.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

Wolf1974 said:


> Then what I hear you saying is that you are between a rock and a hard place. Having been lied to in marriage I know how painful this is. I can't be with liars Because my mind races with I caught them in this lie what about every lie I missed or didn't catch. I wouldn't want my life to constantly be wondering and investigating. Exhausting is the only word that comes to Mind.
> 
> Tough position .


Yes. This is tough. I do question what lies I have missed in the past and what lies I may miss in the future.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

Thundarr said:


> Hey man I get where you're coming from about her not being honest. It was poor judgement on her part. That being said, there's a lot of pressure for a woman to doctor her past fearing judgement. That pressure combined with the fact that we're all flawed leads to a lot of marriages with resentment. In this case you resent that she lied. She's probably felt like you would judge her if you knew her past and I bet that's created with resentment or insecurity in her as well.
> 
> I think we try to oversimplify things sometimes and we certainly look for easy targets for our problems. I remember blaming my failing marriage 100% on my ex. I told myself that I was doing everything to make it work. But looking I didn't even like who she was so I wasn't really trying all that hard. So here's a question. Do you respect who your wife is, like who she is, admire who she is? If not then don't even worry about her past because it's not the problem.
> 
> Also I'm glad you've reached the point where you're not willing to beg for sex because no one should beg for sex IMO. That's the quickest path to making someone not want to be with you. Intimacy is a boundary issue where you speak up if your needs aren't met and decide what you're willing to live with or not. Then it's the other person's choice to either meet that need or not meet it knowing that it might be a show stopper and ultimately the end of the relationship. No one is force or guilted that way.


Thanks for your thoughs. It seems that many label "judgement" as a bad thing. Let's all be honest here, when we are dating someone, we are judging if they are a person we want to be with. When we chose our spouse, we had judged them to be the one we want. Judgement is not a bad thing. We all do it.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

Thor said:


> Ok, we're on a clearer playing field here now.
> 
> 1) She has a different outlook on sex than you do. It just is who she is. Which means she isn't going to change. Sex in your marriage will never be the same as it was before, but that doesn't mean it can't be as good or as meaningful for you. You can't expect her to have the same kind of emotional connection with sex, though. I think you need to discuss this with her, and pursue something like "5 Love Languages" to get your emotional needs met. If touch and quality time are high on your list, find ways other than sex to get those buttons pushed. Sex does encompass all the Love Languages, but now that sex will be different you need to find additional ways to get those Love Languages satisfied.
> 
> ...


Our counselor has recommended Love Languages and we're working on it now. Thank you for your thoughts, they've really made me think.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> Should be easy to convince him. She has for twenty years.
> 
> Somehow, he thought she was as excited about the emotional connection of sex as he was. That kind of lie is very difficult to recover from when it is discovered and why I posted as I did with the questions.
> 
> ...


I feel that I am my own person. After she told the truth, I had to take a major certification exam. I passed, but I didn't tell her until I had told other people. I called and texted others. I didn't let her know until I got home and didn't say anything until she asked. She told me how hurt she was by this act of mine.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

hurt and alone said:


> Thanks for your thoughs. It seems that many label "judgement" as a bad thing. Let's all be honest here, when we are dating someone, we are judging if they are a person we want to be with. When we chose our spouse, we had judged them to be the one we want. Judgement is not a bad thing. We all do it.


I agree 'hurt', judgement is not a curse word. The curse words in this thread should be insecurity and fear because that's why your wife didn't give you the opportunity to know her and love her anyway. Or possibly to know her to say it's not going to work. You're the one who knows her so it's up to you to decide if she has redeeming qualities that supersede her mistakes because let's face it we also all make mistakes. Her deception was a mistake no matter the reasons. Good luck in figuring out what you think about things.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

This morning I asked her:
Do you understand why I am so hurt by your decision to lie to me?

Do you understand why I am hurt by what you lied about?

Do you understand what your decisions have meant to me?

Here is her response and it made me feel good inside:

I understand that one bad decision has led to an entire marriage full of sorrow. I understand that one bad decision has led to your feelings of rejection. I understand that one bad decision has led to feelings of distrust toward me. I understand that one bad decision has led to you being unable to make an honest assessment of who you were getting involved with. I understand how one bad decision has led to you to feel stuck in this marriage. I understand that one bad decision has led to feelings of disgust with who you got stuck with. I understand how one bad decision has led to a permanent change in our marriage and the way we interact with each other. I understand how one bad decision undermined that truthfulness is very important to you; I should have picked up on that listening to you talk about ***** (last girlfriend before wife whom I broke up with due to honesty issues). I understand that one bad decision has led to not listening to you about needing to be close to me and wanting more sex, which was essential to our time together and you feeling loved and important.

But I also understand that one bad decision can lead to a light at the end of the tunnel. One bad decision can lead to coming to terms with the root cause of an unbalanced marriage and tackle it head on. One bad decision will allow me to apologize for trying to hide something I was ashamed to deal with. One bad decision will cause me to look deeper into myself and see what needs to change in order to make the most of my life. One bad decision shows me that 20 years of focusing on the negative part of my life can still be turned around and I'm not too late. 

I know that nothing I do or say will ever fix how I have been for the last 20 years. I know that I can't give you the time back to choose someone else to spend your life with. I know that I will never be able to erase your feelings of rejection and anger. I know that I can never start over and see where life leads us, together or apart.

I am sorry for every single day that I lied to you about who I was. I am sorry for every single day that I lied to myself about who I was. I am sorry for not being who you thought I was. I am sorry for not letting you see who I was. I am sorry for the journey I have taken us on.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

hurt and alone said:


> I feel that our marriage has only been mediocre because she has spent most of her time mentally busy with protecting her secrets instead of being present with me.


Maybe, maybe not. She turned out not to be the person you thought she was. I am not certain this is due to her lies about her number of partners. It seems she is low sex drive, for whatever reason. I seriously doubt she avoided sex with you because she was thinking about her previous partners or worried that she might accidentally reveal some truths she wanted to keep secret.

But absolutely I agree when someone is hiding secrets it detracts from the marriage. They are not able to be fully there or fully in the moment. It also creates a bit of a wall in the relationship. Then they have to remember which lies they told.

If you can get her to abandon her ground rules which say it is ok to lie to you in order to avoid conflict or outcomes she doesn't like, she might become a happier and more connected spouse.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

hurt and alone said:


> I feel that I am my own person. After she told the truth, I had to take a major certification exam. I passed, but I didn't tell her until I had told other people. I called and texted others. I didn't let her know until I got home and didn't say anything until she asked. She told me how hurt she was by this act of mine.


In limited doses it is a good example for her to see what it is like to be on the outside of the information loop. Just don't make it a frequent or passive aggressive way of dealing with her.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

Thor said:


> Maybe, maybe not. She turned out not to be the person you thought she was. I am not certain this is due to her lies about her number of partners. It seems she is low sex drive, for whatever reason. I seriously doubt she avoided sex with you because she was thinking about her previous partners or worried that she might accidentally reveal some truths she wanted to keep secret.
> 
> But absolutely I agree when someone is hiding secrets it detracts from the marriage. They are not able to be fully there or fully in the moment. It also creates a bit of a wall in the relationship. Then they have to remember which lies they told.
> 
> If you can get her to abandon her ground rules which say it is ok to lie to you in order to avoid conflict or outcomes she doesn't like, she might become a happier and more connected spouse.


She's told me that she has avoided sex because of those exact reasons. That is what creates the feeling of rejection. It makes me feel as if her one night stands were more important than her marriage.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

Thor said:


> In limited doses it is a good example for her to see what it is like to be on the outside of the information loop. Just don't make it a frequent or passive aggressive way of dealing with her.


While it felt good that day to keep the information to myself, I haven't made it a habit. I do have a strong desire to just shut down and not share anything with her, but I have made a very strong effort to keep the communication open as much as possible.


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## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

hope things improve for you, hurt and alone.

If it's any consolation, many of the stats and articles that I have read state that most women lie about their sexual past. Maybe even double the number they say and you get the real figure 

It does amaze me in this day of strong feminism that many women still feel the need to lie about their previous partners. 

Most men never find out the true figure of a woman's past.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

OP:

still not seeing it. what she told you recently very much sounds like her trying to apologize to you in exactly the way she believes will be most acceptable to you. reads quite disingenious to me.

as you yourself said none of this would matter if your marriage had been good (vice mediocre). I think you need to deal head on with that - her sexual rejection of you, and whatever other problems exist in the present, sexual or otherwise. hopefully your MC will direct you there.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Based on what your wife wrote, she is a lot smarter than you are. 

Pretend this situation is a balloon. Every day for 20 years you are spending energy breathing air into this balloon. And now it is really big. You're so wrapped up in this that you don't even know how not to put your energy into blowing it up.

We all have balloons in our marriages. People in good marriages don't blow them up. The recognize that it is an unproductive use of energy.

Your wife is pointing out two things. 1. You are defining her based on one decision she made and not the 20 years you should have gotten to really know who she is and 2. You can't change the past, but you can change the future.

You will never find anyone who is perfect. Learning to forgive is a skill you will need whether you stay married or not.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Having been lied to as well, I understand your frustrations. There are several issues to deal with.

1. Your feeling like her past sexual experience is negatively affecting your sex life. She is rejecting you. Here are two items for your wife. A book and a blog from two women that write about how their past sexual experiences tainted their relationships until they dealt with the past.

Official Site for Shannon Ethridge Ministries The Sexually Confident Wife - Official Site for Shannon Ethridge Ministries

The Forgiven Wife - Learning to Dance with Desire

Ask your wife to read the book and review the blog pages.

2. Express to your wife that you will be working very hard to get rid of your resentment. THEN, express to her that the ongoing rejection has to stop. Be very clear that you will not bring up the past anymore, but, you will expect a wife that is a active participant in a committed sexual relationship.

3. Work on yourself to be the best physically, mentally stable person you can be.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

Hicks said:


> Based on what your wife wrote, she is a lot smarter than you are.
> 
> Pretend this situation is a balloon. Every day for 20 years you are spending energy breathing air into this balloon. And now it is really big. You're so wrapped up in this that you don't even know how not to put your energy into blowing it up.
> 
> ...


I'm working on the forgive part. Not that easy at this time.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> Having been lied to as well, I understand your frustrations. There are several issues to deal with.
> 
> 1. Your feeling like her past sexual experience is negatively affecting your sex life. She is rejecting you. Here are two items for your wife. A book and a blog from two women that write about how their past sexual experiences tainted their relationships until they dealt with the past.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the links. I'll pass them on to her in a subtle way.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

hurt and alone said:


> I'm working on the forgive part. Not that easy at this time.


The trick it looking at this as if it's a book you're reading. Try to disconnect and analyze if possible.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

I knew not to read this thread. Sigh. And it has been such a good month...

Anyway. I agree with other posters who say IF she was rockin your socks off, it wouldn't matter nearly as much. I know it sucks that you specifically asked the question and got a BS answer, happened to me too. It's hard knowing that the person you love can look you in the eye and lie. 

In the end you just have to decide if you can forgive her. Do you believe this all she's been lying about? When people lie, I think they are hoping it will only need to be the one time. I don't think they start with the intention of lying to you for a lifetime.

Remember this was all 20 years ago. Your brain is processing it like it just happened, but it didn't. Keep reminding yourself of that.

Read Overcoming Retroactive Jealousy or Get Over Your Partners Past in 12 Steps. Either are pretty good books and can help you change your perspective.

I have a ton of good memories with my wife in the short time we've been together. They help calm my mind when I do start obsessing about her past. After 20 years I bet you have many many more to draw from than I do.

This post helped me quite a lot. The bolded part especially.



RoseAglow said:


> ....
> (*If you keep going, you might find that your hurt is also in a vicious circle with some "stories" in your head, and the stories and hurt feed each other on. Things like "She would do it with him but not with me; the other POS was still worth more than I am; I can't even get what a POS would get; I am less valuable than that POS" etc.
> 
> It is REALLY important to identify those stories and remove them. They really ARE the "living dead" in your head, they are old messages that poison your perspective.)*
> ...


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

I Don't Know said:


> I knew not to read this thread. Sigh. And it has been such a good month...
> 
> Anyway. I agree with other posters who say IF she was rockin your socks off, it wouldn't matter nearly as much. I know it sucks that you specifically asked the question and got a BS answer, happened to me too. It's hard knowing that the person you love can look you in the eye and lie.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link. What exactly did you do to help get past the problems? I've read those 2 books and I've used some of the info from them when I had stronger feelings. They've helped some.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

Honestly, I haven't gotten over it. It's better. I'd say half the time I don't care, 40% it's a minor thought, and 10% it can be pretty bad. Which is a huge improvement. 

Usually I just try to clear my head through breathing or remind myself it's just the story my f'd up brain is telling me. I also try to weigh what's to be gained from bringing it up. Sure she'll reassure me but it could also go to an argument really quickly. Is it worth that? Worth damaging the marriage further to get a little ego stroke that will just hold me over til the next time I go crazy?

First accept that you will never know with certainty what happened. Never know if it was amazing mind blowing sex or just ok sex or bad sex. You will NEVER know. That's just the way it is. Your brain is an a-hole that always picks the mind blowing option.

Remember when you first found out about the two guys. It tore you up, right? Now look at how you felt about that five years later. It probably didn't bother you nearly as much. Did you even think about it at all? That shows you that it doesn't matter. These two guys you didn't know about are the same. They don't matter either. The orgasm doesn't matter. The oral doesn't matter. All this new information is just as meaningless as the old was.

Stop asking her about it. If you didn't believe her when she said you fvck her better than anyone else the first time she said it, you won't after the ten thousandth time either. And every time you talk about it you're asking her to recall things from 20 years ago. Then you find the inconsistencies that fuel your feelings of suspicion.

As far as the lie goes. You have to remember she's human. She made a mistake. Forgive her. She likely lied because she cared what you thought about her. Because she didn't want to lose you. That means you meant something to her. She wanted to impress you. I know I only wanted to impress someone when I really cared about them. Once the lie is told it's infinitely harder to tell the truth. 


I hope this helps. I know this is a hard one to fight. One day at a time my friend. I might let this sh1t get to me tomorrow, but it won't be today.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

hurt and alone said:


> I'm working on the forgive part. Not that easy at this time.


I think you are working on the exact opposite. Food for thought.


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## imperfectworld (Jan 18, 2015)

I Don't Know said:


> I knew not to read this thread. Sigh. And it has been such a good month...


Me too! I am drawn to these threads like a moth to the flame.

What gutted me about this one was this:



hurt and alone said:


> I also valued the fact that she didn't make herself available for sex after the first date, or the second, or the third. It was many weeks before we had sex. I fell so hard for her before we had sex that I knew she was going to be the one before we even had sex. She also knew I was the one for her before we had sex because , unbeknownst to me, she purchased her wedding dress about 2 months into our dating (but before the sex talk).


So she sought to lose her virginity quickly and superficially with some jerk, but then the man who was to become her husband was put on the slow track. It hurts to read this stuff.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

I Don't Know said:


> As far as the lie goes. You have to remember she's human. She made a mistake. Forgive her. She likely lied because she cared what you thought about her. Because she didn't want to lose you. That means you meant something to her. She wanted to impress you. I know I only wanted to impress someone when I really cared about them. Once the lie is told it's infinitely harder to tell the truth.



This paragraph is right on the money. OP's wife was wrong but remember that she did not want to be rejected. It doesn't make what she did excusable but it does explain it. That doesn't make lying right but it makes it more understandable. I think understanding why someone does what they do goes a long way in the forgiveness process. 

Put yourself in the other person's (in this case, hers) shoes, OP. That's an exercise I learned years ago in doing business with people so that I could be better prepared for what their responses or issues might be. 

If you had done something prior to meeting your wife, sexual or otherwise, and you really feared that she may reject you for it, then concealing, redirecting, blaming, excuse-making or avoiding the conversation entirely may seem like viable options. I'm not suggesting you would do that but you have to admit that it would be a possibility. Also, don't forget that she was very young at the time. 

I can tell you, without hesitation, that I have far better control of myself and far better judgment than I had 20 or 30 years ago. 

If I were you, I'd ask her why, if it doesn't seem all that obvious, but my educated guess is that she had low self esteem or self worth and that these encounters meant next to nothing to her. I think you understand why she lied about it as that is far more obvious.

As to why she told you now, that's fairly straightforward as well. People tend to confess things or share sensitive things about themselves when they feel safe or when they feel they have nothing to lose. I'm going to go with the latter for why she told you all of this recently.

If your marriage is struggling, she likely feels that she has nothing to lose by telling the truth. She probably feels like you can't resent her or dislike her more.

My question for you, OP, is do you still love her? If you do, then these issues can be overcome. First, you have to let go of resentment and forgive her. Second, continue counseling together to work on your issues. Third, and this could be part of the second point, but you have got to get the "sex thing" rectified. Clearly, you are not happy about the frequency of sex.

This is a HUGE deal for most men and some women too. I'm going to take an educated guess that if you had more frequent and satisfying sex that many of the other issues will begin to dissipate. 

I wish you well and encourage you not to throw away almost 20 years of marriage because your wife was young and foolish years ago. If you still love her and she's been a good wife then that is certainly worth saving.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

I Don't Know said:


> Honestly, I haven't gotten over it. It's better. I'd say half the time I don't care, 40% it's a minor thought, and 10% it can be pretty bad. Which is a huge improvement.
> 
> Usually I just try to clear my head through breathing or remind myself it's just the story my f'd up brain is telling me. I also try to weigh what's to be gained from bringing it up. Sure she'll reassure me but it could also go to an argument really quickly. Is it worth that? Worth damaging the marriage further to get a little ego stroke that will just hold me over til the next time I go crazy?
> 
> ...


Thanks for your thoughts! It is a hard fight. For me the hardest part is to say that I love someone who lied to me.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

imperfectworld said:


> Me too! I am drawn to these threads like a moth to the flame.
> 
> What gutted me about this one was this:
> 
> ...


Yes, this part is something that hurts. Her response to being on the slow track was that she wanted me to respect her more than for just sex. She says that she wanted to have sex with me on the first date, but that she wanted to wait more because she wanted to see that I was interested in more than just sex with her.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

Mostlycontent said:


> This paragraph is right on the money. OP's wife was wrong but remember that she did not want to be rejected. It doesn't make what she did excusable but it does explain it. That doesn't make lying right but it makes it more understandable. I think understanding why someone does what they do goes a long way in the forgiveness process.
> 
> Put yourself in the other person's (in this case, hers) shoes, OP. That's an exercise I learned years ago in doing business with people so that I could be better prepared for what their responses or issues might be.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your thoughts. They do provide some inspiration. I'm not ready to completely throw away 20 years. The love I feel for her is not nearly as intense as it was before she revealed the truth. Maybe I shouldn't say the love is less intense, but the passion is less intense. She has been doing many things to let me know that she wants this to work. It is hard to express love to someone who disappointed and lied to me. If I look back over the past 14 months since she told me the truth, I do have to admit that things have gotten somewhat better.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

Personal said:


> In the long run if she feels unloved, it will be perfectly understandable if she chooses to divorce you.
> 
> How she feels is just as important as how you feel.


I get that. I'm not totally shunning her. I'm not pushing all of the effort on to her. I'm trying to go my part. She has told me that she feels more loved now since she told me the truth than she did before.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

I think the disappointment is a part some people don't understand.

If when I met my wife she had said, "in the last year, I've had sex with 6 guys" I don't know how I would have taken it, but at least I would have known. Instead she said 2 guys. I was impressed by that. My thoughts were somewhere along the lines of "I know she got horny during that time, but she held out, waiting for guys she had a connection with." That to me took strength to not jump right into something after her divorce. And when she said "I decided I didn't need a man, I was better off alone." She was saying "but you're different. I haven't wanted to be with anyone, but I want to be with you." 

I admired and respected her for the decisions I THOUGHT she had made. It also made me feel pretty damn good about myself that she "didn't need a man, until I met you." But that was all BS. She jumped from one guy to another. I don't think she was without a guy for more than a couple of weeks at a time during the year before we met. She was never "better off alone." And now I feel like just the next guy in line. I just happen to be the one that didn't get a random late night text or have another girl show up looking for her shoes.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

I Don't Know said:


> I think the disappointment is a part some people don't understand.
> 
> If when I met my wife she had said, "in the last year, I've had sex with 6 guys" I don't know how I would have taken it, but at least I would have known. Instead she said 2 guys. I was impressed by that. My thoughts were somewhere along the lines of "I know she got horny during that time, but she held out, waiting for guys she had a connection with." That to me took strength to not jump right into something after her divorce. And when she said "I decided I didn't need a man, I was better off alone." She was saying "but you're different. I haven't wanted to be with anyone, but I want to be with you."
> 
> I admired and respected her for the decisions I THOUGHT she had made. It also made me feel pretty damn good about myself that she "didn't need a man, until I met you." But that was all BS. She jumped from one guy to another. I don't think she was without a guy for more than a couple of weeks at a time during the year before we met. She was never "better off alone." And now I feel like just the next guy in line. I just happen to be the one that didn't get a random late night text or have another girl show up looking for her shoes.


Yes, the disappointment is a big part of it. I feel like I have lost the respect that I had for her. Some of that is coming back now though.

The one thing that gets me the most is that I had a set of values that I expected her to measure up to. She had the same set of values she expected from me. I was honest and met those values while she lied to meet my standards. 

I don't think there was anything wrong with what she did sexually before me, I just have the standard of not wanting to be with someone who engages in one night stands repeatedly.

Right after the truth came out, I was wishing I had lied to her about something that I could reveal to cause hurt. Whether good or bad, I had nothing to reveal.

Not that I'm planning to cheat on her, but I feel that I could and just throw the same excuses back in her face and then ask her to just live with it and accept me for who I am. "It was in the past." "I was just young and stupid." "It was just sex that meant nothing." "I felt bad after it was over." "I just did it because of the peer pressure of other cheaters I know." "I meant to stay faithful to you."

Yes, I know that is a stupid line of thought, but it feels no different than what she has been telling me.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I Don't Know said:


> I think the disappointment is a part some people don't understand.
> 
> If when I met my wife she had said, "in the last year, I've had sex with 6 guys" I don't know how I would have taken it, but at least I would have known. Instead she said 2 guys. I was impressed by that. My thoughts were somewhere along the lines of "I know she got horny during that time, but she held out, waiting for guys she had a connection with." That to me took strength to not jump right into something after her divorce. And when she said "I decided I didn't need a man, I was better off alone." She was saying "but you're different. I haven't wanted to be with anyone, but I want to be with you."
> 
> I admired and respected her for the decisions I THOUGHT she had made. It also made me feel pretty damn good about myself that she "didn't need a man, until I met you." But that was all BS. She jumped from one guy to another. I don't think she was without a guy for more than a couple of weeks at a time during the year before we met. She was never "better off alone." And now I feel like just the next guy in line. I just happen to be the one that didn't get a random late night text or have another girl show up looking for her shoes.


But, but, she did tell you. Let me explain.

She meant two guys she dated steady for a few weeks or so each. That makes perfect sense, now. Doesn't it? She wasn't going to tell you about the others. They weren't serious.

When she said she decided she didn't need a man, she meant she didn't need to be with only one man who was dedicated to taking care of her. She can take care of herself. Seeeee?

I'm better off alone means she didn't want to come home to a man all the time who put any kind of restraints or enforced boundaries with her. Make sense now? You just needed to Google Translate. 

Honestly, that's probably something not too far from the truth. You, like I did, filled in the blanks and didn't ask specific questions and require specific answers. If you had, you would likely have made her angry enough to dump you. Instead, you thought everyone wanted a nice monogamous marriage because, isn't that everyone's goal? It pretty much is what I thought.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> Make sense now? You just needed to Google Translate.
> .
> .
> .
> You, like I did, filled in the blanks and didn't ask specific questions and require specific answers. ... Instead, you thought everyone wanted a nice monogamous marriage because, isn't that everyone's goal?


Yup, I think that is a common scenario. We have a certain set of beliefs and preconceptions. To us it is how the world works. So we assume others have the same basic ground rules.

I clearly remember a conversation I had with my fiance during a very long cross country drive. I told her that since we were going to be married I wanted to be sure she knew everything, so I told her one thing which I hadn't been explicit about wrt my dating history. She said "ok" and then clamped her mouth shut. I now know this is her way of literally keeping her mouth shut so as not to reveal something she wants to hide. But back then I thought she would want to be fully honest with me, because I wanted to be fully honest with her. Since we were having "that conversation" about fully revealing things now that we were engaged, I assumed she must not have anything else hidden from me since she didn't tell me anything then.

Boy was I wrong!

Even things such as our views of sexuality, e.g. sacred vs recreational, we can incorrectly assume the other person has the same view as us.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

It was my fault for assuming. But you'd think a question like "How many guys have you slept with?" doesn't leave a lot of room for interpretation.  If you say "none of your business" fine but if you give me an answer it should be true.

I went from "I trust her" to "she tells me the truth IF I ask a direct question" to "she tells the truth when I have absolute proof of the truth." I never looked at trust as something to that needed to be earned. At least not until some one has given me a reason to not trust. 

That's why I said earlier, you will never KNOW what happened before you. There could be another 2 guys you don't know about yet. She could have got married in Vegas. She could have murdered kittens with a hatchet. You don't KNOW anything. Accept that.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

What does she say that correlates to "I meant to stay faithful to you"? Your other examples make sense to me, but this one is escaping me.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I Don't Know said:


> What does she say that correlates to "I meant to stay faithful to you"? Your other examples make sense to me, but this one is escaping me.


Well, she figured she wouldn't have to sleep around on you. She wanted to stay faithful, but she couldn't guarantee it. It is something that isn't set in stone. Staying faithful is based on how she is treated, who is offering and the situation at the time of the offer, but not on who she is. It's an unknown variable. See, that way, it's your fault. Get me? Wow, can't believe I wrote that bull. It's so ridiculous, it seems like it has to be true. Doesn't it?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I Don't Know said:


> It was my fault for assuming. But you'd think a question like "How many guys have you slept with?" doesn't leave a lot of room for interpretation.  If you say "none of your business" fine but if you give me an answer it should be true.
> 
> I went from "I trust her" to "she tells me the truth IF I ask a direct question" to "she tells the truth when I have absolute proof of the truth." I never looked at trust as something to that needed to be earned. At least not until some one has given me a reason to not trust.
> 
> That's why I said earlier, you will never KNOW what happened before you. There could be another 2 guys you don't know about yet. She could have got married in Vegas. She could have murdered kittens with a hatchet. You don't KNOW anything. Accept that.


If she said none of your business, you might have gotten angry and dumped her, because you believed it was important information. She didn't think anything that wasn't a serious relationship was important, so she didn't mention it. No sense in going there. 

They aren't your business because you were interested in her ability to have a relationship. They didn't have anything to do with a relationship. They were just trists of little meaning other than fun or a drunken mistake, etc.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

I Don't Know said:


> What does she say that correlates to "I meant to stay faithful to you"? Your other examples make sense to me, but this one is escaping me.


I'm just equating faithful to honesty, but she has repeatedly told me that her intention was to wait until marriage before having sex. Saying that it was her intention would be the same as me saying I intended to be faithful. Again, I'm not looking to cheat on her. I have the integrity to not do that.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

I see. Makes sense. I'm not really sure what she thinks saying her intention was to wait for marriage solves.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> If she said none of your business, you might have gotten angry and dumped her, because you believed it was important information. She didn't think anything that wasn't a serious relationship was important, so she didn't mention it. No sense in going there.
> 
> They aren't your business because you were interested in her ability to have a relationship. They didn't have anything to do with a relationship. They were just trists of little meaning other than fun or a drunken mistake, etc.


And then there is the word "boyfriend". Sometimes it means anyone they've had sex with, in order to make it look like they don't have casual hookups. But I think more frequently, at least in my experience with my wife, it is a way to _exclude_ those hookups.

"Oh, I've had 3 boyfriends before you". Yes, but what was left out was the casual encounters.

"How many people have you had sex with?" is a direct question, yet it could be interpreted as only PIV. So those random bj's don't count. 

She can stack the two strategies with "I've had sex with 3 boyfriends". Which is true, yet not.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

The word "talking to" is where my wife would go. "I talked to some guys" WTF? I noticed this when her sister was telling her about her niece (my wife's niece) had started having sex. Later a boys name came up and my wife asked "oh, is that they guy she was talking to?" LOL. No, that's the guy she was fvcking. So talking to means it's just a few times casual type thing.

It's like look if you did these things just say it. Don't beat around the bush or down play it. If you're ashamed that you did it, then you probably shouldn't have.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

People, especially people who are looking to possibly date you or marry you, don't ask awkward questions like this just because they are nosey. If someone asks you your count, it's obviously important to them for some reason or another. Now you get to decide if them asking is out of bounds or not. Maybe it's an auto dismissal. Maybe it's a "I don't talk about the past, period." Maybe it's an honest answer. But playing the "well this time doesn't count, and drunk mistakes don't count, and oral only doesn't count." game really gets no one anywhere except hurt.

ETA: The people who qualify and obfuscate are often the same people who ask why you need to sign 15 pages of documents to finance a car.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I Don't Know said:


> It's like look if you did these things just say it. Don't beat around the bush or down play it. If you're ashamed that you did it, then you probably shouldn't have.


Or say you did it, and you learned a lot about yourself since then, and you would not do these things again. So while it is part of your past it is not your value system any longer to do those things.

I don't think people should feel ashamed of things they did in the past which didn't harm anyone. At least not for very long. Ok, you did something you later felt you shouldn't have. Figure out why you did it and why you no longer believe it is ok for you, and then stop feeling shame. Regret is ok, shame is harming yourself.

Someone who has learned from mistakes can be a very solid person to be with. Someone who lies to hide their past is not a solid person.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Thor said:


> And then there is the word "boyfriend". Sometimes it means anyone they've had sex with, in order to make it look like they don't have casual hookups. But I think more frequently, at least in my experience with my wife, it is a way to _exclude_ those hookups.
> 
> "Oh, I've had 3 boyfriends before you". Yes, but what was left out was the casual encounters.
> 
> ...


For some women, it actually is just a boyfriend. Man, is that refreshing when you realize it. But yeah, depending on who is listening, boyfriend might just be used to soften the blow of what should be called a hookup. Same with the rest. It's all qualified by who, what, where and how they feel at the time. If she's angry, it might have been the biggest member she ever wrapped her lips around, which may actually be untrue. Depends on the impact she wants to make on the listener. 

Men do it too. It's just a little different. We don't say she had the tightest vagina we've ever had the pleasure of entering, or that she thanked me for opening her door and offering to hold an umbrella over her head. Whatever...you know what I mean.


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## hurt and alone (May 15, 2015)

I Don't Know said:


> I see. Makes sense. I'm not really sure what she thinks saying her intention was to wait for marriage solves.


I get the feeling that it is her way of saying that she feels that she made a mistake.


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