# Where did my wife go? Mercedes Syndrome.



## Perpetually Perplexed (Feb 21, 2012)

20 years ago, I married the most wonderful woman. She was comfortable in jeans and a sweatshirt, drove a cute little Nissan, and loved quick trips to fast food in the middle of the night, and laughed about forgetting to shave her legs when we were intimate. As a stay-at-home-mom, she was the very best.

Through the first 15 years of our marriage, and the addition of 3 kids, we took a lot of bike rides, went to the drag races, played football in the back yard, and had an occassional food fight in the kitchen when making pizza together.

About five years ago, it all started to change. I'm not sure how to explain this, but she seemed to want to become more 'classy'. She started wearing more jewelry, buying $150 jeans, and traded in her Dodge for a new Mercedes. We are not rich, but I have done well with a couple of businesses and this has afforded us the ability to upgrade to a nicer neighborhood, nicer vehicles, and nicer things for us and our kids.

The change was not sudden. It took a few years for her to develop her new 'style', and I liked it at first. But I soon realized that it was not just her style that changed. She started complaining about the way I dressed, how the kids looked, and some of the normal activities we all used to enjoy. At the same time, her earrings got more elaborate, and her hair and makeup was always perfect. She started working hard to get rid of stretch marks, and even started having some sort of face laser treatments to smooth out her skin. Sex is O.K. as long as we don't mess up her anti-wrinkle face cream.....

Now I am exaggerating a little, but not much. Yesterday at Easter dinner with the relatives, I was a little embarrassed because she was overdressed. She would have fit in well at a high-society party as a surgeon's wife in San Diego....but unfortunately, that's not where we were, or who I am.

I honestly wouldn't mind the classy style too much, but her playful nature is gone. She gets irritated with little things that do not fit into her new 'style', and it's almost like she feels she is above me and the kids now. I actually thought she might be cheating on me, so I spent almost two years trying to find evidence (GPS, Keylogger, VAR, checking everything, etc...). I found nothing.

I have dealt with this by making sure to tell her how great she looks when she is in her T-shirt mode, and have kept my comments to myself when she is in her classy mode. I was hoping she this would run its course, but it just seems to be getting worse. She knows that I do not care much for her new style, but she really doesn't seem to care.

Where did my wife go?

Is she trying to keep up with our 16 year old daughter?
Is she going through mid-life-crisis?
Is she bored with me and trying to catch the eye of another?

My biggest fear is the feeling like I don't even know her anymore. I have become less relavent in her life. Maybe she is wishing she was with someone else, because she sure doesn't seem to want to be with me any longer.

Thanks for letting me vent. I am hoping someone has some insight into what's going on....or how I can deal with this.


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## eowyn (Mar 22, 2012)

Looks like since your kids seem to have grown up she didn't know what to do with her time and wanted to catch up with life, wanted to increase her self-esteem by dressing classy, and in the process took her self esteem to a level where others started appearing like crap since 'dressing well' is now her new standard for judging others. Hence the irritation and negativity. Just a theory... I have seen some kind of an underlying "insecurity" drives this kind of behavior. 

Does she have any new friends who could have influenced her to this new superficial lifestyle, new tv shows she might be watching. Does she have any new male friends, any outdoor activities?

How about you take her and kids hiking or biking etc... that way she will have to dress up more casual (jeans and t-shirt). Few times in the regular outfit give her some genuine compliments and see if it makes a difference. Maybe she will start feeling more comfortable in her old skin.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

If she hasn't had an affair, she may be ready to. Surely, someone has complimented her on her new style, and she has probably been attracting the attention of other men.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

:iagree:

This definately isn't going to end up well.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Dressing up isn't always about infidelity; there are no other red flags. Sometimes it's about confidence. I think she just found some self confidence, wanted to feel good about herself. You're being really negative about positive changes in her life. It is possible that she is feeling neglected or not appreciated? She may be expecting positive comments from you about her changes because she expects them and because she's not getting them, she's just trying harder, not knowing it's having the opposite effect. That could make her resentful and more picky toward you. She might not understand your emotional withdrawal. She might feel that you're being too complacent and not putting energy into the romantic aspects of dressing up and showing off for each other. She might be changing as a person, or she might be trying to get your attention. I used to dress up more when I felt like I wasn't getting enough attention from my H (didn't work as much as I wanted b/c his eyes were elsewhere), but I kept trying harder and harder and my resentment really built up.

Try to reconnect to each other. Take her on dates more often. Pick a classy place that the new her would like, and pick a casual place that you would like. Twice a week. Go do something for each of you, once a week. I bet you'll both be happier. Just asking her to change isn't going to do any good, but the more connected to each other you guys feel, the more that playfulness and accommodation of each other's preferences will come back into your relationship.

A question about your criticism. You aren't getting any weird attention from women that's making you less responsive to your wife, right, someone whose taste is more like hers used to be? Sometimes, weird influences like that around us can make us more picky toward our partners. Just to weed that out. It seems to me that you guys just aren't connecting and you need to talk about this this change and that it is making you feel insecure and less drawn to her and more put off by her in some ways. And listen to how she is feeling about you, too. If you don't address the disconnect, it might become more permanent than you'd like. Having no wife has to be worse than having wife 2.0, right? You should try to build new kinds of intimacy and connection with each other.

I don't know if any of that helps you, but I hope so.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

To me, it sounds like she had more time on her hands now that the kids are older, so has turned her focus on herself for the first time in years, rather than focusing on the kids. She's waking up from mommy-mode, and rediscovering herself as a woman. Unfortunately, all the stuff she's doing does not sound like it is making her happy.

It could be her environment. You said you had upgraded to a new neighborhood. Maybe the women in her sphere are her models right now - maybe she saw them as the upgraded version of what she's supposed to be now. Maybe she's anxious about measuring up or something.



> My biggest fear is the feeling like I don't even know her anymore. I have become less relavent in her life.


This is the part you really need to talk with her about. Tell her you've realized that the two of you have been growing more and more distant in the last few years, and you want to put a stop to it before it's too late.

Be open with her - that's the first step toward bridging the distance and re-discovering each other.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Probably mid life crisis. Edit- I just read this has been going on for nearly half a decade. 

I'd show her this post to be honest, but I'd recommend taking out the being "embarrassed about the way she looked at the Easter dinner" part.


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## clenzemary (Feb 12, 2012)

From every indication, your wife may have been trying to express herself all this while but you seem not to have given her the needed attention.As men we unconsciously move at our own speed in addressing certain family key issues without necessarily carrying our partners along. What you need do is to take a closer look at some of the family decisions you've taken for say the last few years you noticed her disconnect,what was her level of involvement? Her actions could be a subtle revolt against a long time neglect.You could clearly see that gradually she has developed her friendship outside you (her husband) and possibly the children towards others who may give her time and attention.For instance, in changing your environment to the new place did you grow together to accommodate the change(s) or each person was left to respond according to his / her ability . You can not under estimate the influence of peers, even at that stage.Lastly you need to cast your mind back to those times when your wife was the best of all, and begin to effectively put into practice those attributes in you that made your marriage work at its best.


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

norajane said:


> It could be her environment. You said you had upgraded to a new neighborhood. Maybe the women in her sphere are her models right now - maybe she saw them as the upgraded version of what she's supposed to be now. Maybe she's anxious about measuring up or something.


This. My aunt turned retarded when she moved from an acreage to the suburbs. Her friends in the suburbs can only be described as retarded. They do things like
-take art class just so they can brag about art class
-buy a Nissan Murano because "all my friends have one"
-have an interior decorator just so they can say "my interior decorator"

This is every bit as self destructive as hanging out with drug friends. What's the difference between bankruptcy caused by cocaine vs bankruptcy caused by buying stupid crap you don't need?


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## Posse (Jan 30, 2012)

People do change with time. Interests change.

The old line goes something like, "Men marry a woman and don't want her to ever change. Women marry a man so that they can change him."

Some people lose their playfulness and sense of humor when they grow older, unfortunately. I've seen it in my wife. If you get a good solution to that problem, let me know what it is.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Posse said:


> People do change with time. Interests change.


Agree. All you can do is:

1) Make sure the basic relationship needs are being met. Try to reconnect and find ways to enjoy things with her and continue to invite her to do things with you.

2) Set a boundary against being ridiculed. It sounds like you are picking up a condescening tone from her. Tell your wife about this sense and clear the air. If it persists, remind her that she has changed, not the rest of you, and that different in this sense does not mean worse. Above all, refuse to be minimized because you have not adopted her new sense of style.

3) Set a boundary against her simply draining cash out of the marriage. IMO, some new clothes and beauty treatments are appropriate and, by your account, reasonable relative to your resources. But a Mercedes and lots of jewelry seem excessive. You want to try to keep it at a reasonable level so that she does not dominate family spending now or in the future.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Perpetually Perplexed said:


> My biggest fear is the feeling like I don't even know her anymore. I have become less relavent in her life. Maybe she is wishing she was with someone else, because she sure doesn't seem to want to be with me any longer.


Mercedes syndrome, Walk away wife syndrome. Just names. It's all the same. Copy and paste your original post in that sticky "Wife fell out of love with you? Post here" thread. Oh, I forgot. For some reason there ISN'T one. Weird, because we could save a lot of people a lot of time by keeping all of this stuff in one place. Instead, we treat them all as if they are unrelated incidences. 

Read up on the 180. Make yourself better for you and your kids. You do your thing, let her do hers. Just ignore the part about her seeing a positive change in you and coming along with. She's gone. Work on you for you.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

ShawnD said:


> This. My aunt turned retarded when she moved from an acreage to the suburbs. Her friends in the suburbs can only be described as retarded. They do things like
> -take art class just so they can brag about art class
> -buy a Nissan Murano because "all my friends have one"
> -have an interior decorator just so they can say "my interior decorator"
> ...


That sounds shallow and vapid, but not retarded. Of course, any excuse to take an art class is a good one, I think!  However, if they aren't enjoying the things for what they are and just hope to be gaining status for having those "materials" in their lives, then they are just superficial and a little ridiculous.

I know you don't mean "retarded" in an offensive way, but, specificity is always helpful, right? They do seem to demonstrate some psychological retardation, in that there's no depth or sincerity to their actions and that makes them seem to have slowed down in their development of self, despite these efforts. 

Peer pressure is just as ridiculous in adults as adolescents; useful anecdote, you've given, I think. In the situation described by OP, do you think she's just trying to fit in? It sounds to me like it's been a five year long change and that it's less about showing off or fitting in but personal development and improvement. Unfortunately, your point that "Keeping up with The Jones" is a symptom of change toward suburban life is a good one and might be worth looking into.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

MrK said:


> Mercedes syndrome, Walk away wife syndrome. Just names. It's all the same. Copy and paste your original post in that sticky "Wife fell out of love with you? Post here" thread. Oh, I forgot. For some reason there ISN'T one. Weird, because we could save a lot of people a lot of time by keeping all of this stuff in one place. Instead, we treat them all as if they are unrelated incidences.
> 
> Read up on the 180. Make yourself better for you and your kids. You do your thing, let her do hers. Just ignore the part about her seeing a positive change in you and coming along with. She's gone. Work on you for you.


But isn't this exactly what the OP wants to address? The falling out of love before it becomes permanent estrangement? People don't just up and walk away for no reason. Sometimes, their reasons are foolish, but they do exist. Your advice seems to be indicating that it's a lost cause for him to try and repair their emotional estrangement, that he should just give up and work on himself and check out of the marriage, too. IMO that sounds too much like giving up without any effort. Relationships take work sometimes, if they are worth having, I think.

OP can't turn back time and make her who she used to be or make her what he wants her to be, but he can talk to her in the hopes that they older versions of themselves find some connection and don't end up turning outside the marriage (not infidelity necessarily, but to other social interests) and end up just roommates that tolerate each other. It's a chance to fix exactly the problem you've highlighted in your first paragraph, I think. Personally, I hope OP communicates with his wife because he seems to love her and it's possible that they can reconnect by just trying. A woman who is out doing every dude that walks by is a lost cause, but a woman who withdraws because she feels her needs aren't being met, investing time in self-development instead, and showing signs of resentment, isn't a lost cause. She's not an object who will stay static, but a person. And emotions run two ways, not just one.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

This is a tough one. I do think while infidelity may not be at the root of this, if things are not addressed then that could be in scope down the road.

Does she work? I mean if the kids are grown and she is a SAHM she is seeing her life role changing and she has re-invented herself in this manner.

I would be very concerned as you are. I think it is very important you reconnect with your wife because you are drifting away from one another.

I know you miss that other persona but you need to come to grips with that woman may have moved on now. Maybe if you reconnect she will settle into soemthing in between but I think it is a bad idea to think she has to stay as she was. I get it though. 

So while sounding flowery if you can be this woman's lover then you will reconnect. If you can do this she is less likely to find one. I guess she is wanting to be the lady of the manner. There is good and bad with this. The bad being an entitlement that you just do not want her exploring.
Spend time with her. Do things together that can lighten things up. She may need to be in an affair with her husband. date your wife again. realize the dates are going to be with a grownup women. Not that playful girl as much.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

I've read through this thread, his situation is similar to walkaway and cheating wives, but different. I do agree that his W is looking to get something more out of life and has convinced herself this is the way.

And suddenly when I got to the end of this thread the words of my all time favorite commenter, BigBadWolf, came to mind: she just needs a spanking... seriously I think it is time to learn to lead a little, you've extended her leash too far and need to somehow bring her back in a little, getting her in the right direction may be a delicate process but once she starts coming in gravity should help you... this is not only bring her close to you but is also to make you a stronger man - I suspect bringing her back may take some time but keep it in your mind that this is your life and you need a W who can meet your relationship needs too. If you still have a sex life together this is where you start, become more assertive in the bedroom, do not feel guilty about taking your pleasure in her and expecting her participation and I feel she will gravitate towards you(assuming you have some of these doormat tendencies, I could certainly be way off base of course).


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

moxy said:


> I know you don't mean "retarded" in an offensive way, but, specificity is always helpful, right? They do seem to demonstrate some psychological retardation, in that there's no depth or sincerity to their actions and that makes them seem to have slowed down in their development of self, despite these efforts.


I meant retarded in a nondescript sense, sort of like "f*** you" doesn't really mean anything but it shows disapproval.

In a more literal sense, I would say that desperate plea for attention and acceptance is some kind of emotional retardation. I can't remember where I heard this, but there's some theory out there that growing up and maturing means caring less and less about what other people think. When you're 15, image is everything. When you're 30, it's still something but not much. By 60, people simply don't care anymore. Wear the big ugly sun glasses because they work better than the trendy ones. Some have argued that this is why people tend to get happier as they get older. Caring less about what other people think means someone can be more comfortable in their own skin. 

His wife seems to be going in the wrong direction. Instead of caring less, she cares more. That's going to lead to a lot of unwanted anxiety and drama down the road. Almost everyone I know has said that they felt better when they stopped caring about others.


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## Perpetually Perplexed (Feb 21, 2012)

Thank you for your responses. I have a lot to think about. I will try to answer some of the questions in hopes it will help you all to guide me a little further.

Yes, I do believe that she is no longer in love with me in a romantic way. She has not said that. In fact, she tells me she loves me often. But the winks and smiles are gone, if you know what I mean. She has never been an affectionate person, but now the affection has really vanished.

I have thought a lot about my part in this mess. I can't think of anything big that I have done. I am not perfect, but for the most part I am an honest and loyal family man, a good provider, and I never saw myself as neglectful. But when I think about it, I fault myself for not including my wife in my life as much as I should. I think I have sheltered her from my worries and didn't include her in my successes. 

We have lived in the same house for 12 years (sorry, I think my post made it sound like we just moved). She has a few close friends, and they are great women. She has never had male friends (that I know of). Both of us are home every evening with the kids. There is no drinking or parties our outings. She has a pretty conservative nature. Her new style is not provocative, except maybe a little higher heels than she used to wear.

She does not work outside the home. I think the influences on her new style may have come from some the women she admires at my son's school. He goes to a private school with a number of wealthy families. My wife has to drive him to and from school, where she sees these women each day. I also think that she is trying to keep up with my 16 year old daughter who is very into her own fashion.

Her new style is an every day thing. She dresses up to go to the grocery store (red flag), but also dresses up on Saturday when we are home all day painting the kitchen. 

I feel trapped. The times when I have tried to bring up our growing distance, my wife does not seem to have the same interest in the conversation. Her response is, "yes, there are some issues, but nothing we can't work through".....then she will slowly change the subject. 

There is no financial strain. Even though she is spending more on herself, she prides herself in being very careful with what she buys. She still prides herself on living well below our means. 

Infidelity? Certainly would explain her behavior, and is crushing to think about. It is possible, but there have been no lies, suspicious behavior, secrecy, or any other major indicators. It may very well be just a wish to be with someone else.

I am struggling with an understanding of how to lead us out of this. I have instictively done the '180' I have read about over the past year. It didn't seem to phase her much. She has seen my frustration, and I have been up-front that I am unhappy with our disconnect. But her numbness just crushes my motivation to try to work on this with her. If she truly does not love me romantically any longer, I have heard that it will not come back. I am now numb myself.

I feel like I am rambling. Sorry.

Thanks for the opportunity to write all of this out. I know there are people on here with much bigger problems than mine.

Your thoughts and advice are much appreciated. I can't just keep living this way day after day. I will listen to all of your experience as I try to come up with a plan.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

IMHO the 180 is NOT what to do. I think you need to engage with her more. Do stuff together. Take her out. Take her places where what she is wearing is appropriate. Romance her. Up your game a bit. Casual if you want but classy.

Over the years I have noticed that when my wife and I get distant that when I put in real effort she gets back to being more engaged and happy. Sometimes there is a delay. She has told me after an extended spell that the reason she did not full engage right away was that she was afraid my efforts would slack off. Very poignant. I got it.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Perpetually Perplexed said:


> Infidelity? Certainly would explain her behavior, and is crushing to think about. It is possible, but there have been no lies, suspicious behavior, secrecy, or any other major indicators. It may very well be just a wish to be with someone else.


Not saying she is or not, but just incase she is. Are you able to check her whereabouts, text's, fb or emails?


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Honestly I think the red flag that is being missed is that his wife seems genuinely indifferent to the OP. I may be wrong but I think the OP may want to take a more direct approach to root this out. 

It seems like so many that come to forum do not want to address the elephant in the room. I would suggest that the OP gets individual counseling for further insight. Of course we all know that this will evolve into the therapist wanting joint counseling. If OP's spouse refuses I believe it proves the point I am trying to make at which point I would lay down divorce as an alternative.


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## Perpetually Perplexed (Feb 21, 2012)

Thanks 3000. I think you are right. She seems to resist my efforts to do things together, but in the past I may just give up too soon. When we are together, she wants to talk about the kids, the house, the weather,...but seems to clam up when I steer the converstaion to relationship issues. The more I think about this, the more I feel like I may have been unavailable and preoccupied in our marriage. I need to think about this, but I am starting to think about my side of this more.

Hi keko. Yes. Her phone is in my name and I have checked calls. She has an old phone and does not text. She does not have a facebook or any other social sites that I know of. I spent almost two years tracking with GPS and VAR. No results. It got almost addictive, so I backed off. But if she wanted to cheat, I know that she could. It just seems I would have noticed something with my hypervigilant searching. She had no idea I was suspicious, so I don't think she is underground. If she was cheating, it would be a severe departure from her normal state, but I have heard so may horror stories from men who were blindsided.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Perpetually Perplexed said:


> Hi keko. Yes. Her phone is in my name and I have checked calls. She has an old phone and does not text. She does not have a facebook or any other social sites that I know of. I spent almost two years tracking with GPS and VAR. No results. It got almost addictive, so I backed off. But if she wanted to cheat, I know that she could. It just seems I would have noticed something with my hypervigilant searching. She had no idea I was suspicious, so I don't think she is underground. If she was cheating, it would be a severe departure from her normal state, but I have heard so may horror stories from men who were blindsided.


I asked because if you want to "fix" your wife, you have to diagnose the problem. So that check's off infidelity, anything else guys/gals?


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Lon said:


> you've extended her leash too far and need to somehow bring her back in a little, getting her in the right direction may be a delicate process but once she starts coming in gravity should help you... this is not only bring her close to you but is also to make you a stronger man - I suspect bringing her back may take some time but


I'm sorry, but she is not a dog or an animal in need of taming. The fact that she has changed does not simply mean that she is a misbehaved animal. You can't "rein in her leash" because she shouldn't be on a leash in the first place!

Your analogy is endorsing some seriously controlling behavior. Isn't she allowed to grow and change as a human being? This kind of analogy just reinforces the idea that she should submit to whatever her husband wants her to be because she is a pet or a slave or an object, but if OPs wife doesn't want to be a slave, she shouldn't have to be enslaved just because he doesn't like these changes in her attitude about herself. Talking to her about the effect that her interests are having on him is one thing (most people want to please their partners and will compromise for that purpose if asked; it has to go both ways, though), but you're telling him to dominate her. Manipulating her into changing back (you're saying it's going to be hard to "rein her back in") is like inviting power struggles that could lead toward abuse. 

I imagine you're just being "playful" with your language, but, there's an attitude behind it that could be troubling. You shouldn't coerce someone into being who you want him/her to be and you can't assume you own or control another; that's domination and could lead toward psychological abuse. If a guy wants to be an alpha, he should inspire his wife to see him that way by being a better man, not dominate her until she does so.

I am not trying to pick on you. I'm not being too sensitive. I just see this is troubling. Such a mind-set could backfire big-time.



Lon said:


> keep it in your mind that this is your life and you need a W who can meet your relationship needs too.


This is so very true! 

You sound deeply unsatisfied because your needs are not being met by her and that is a reasonable expectation to have of a life partner, if they are reasonable requests. You can't change her to fit those needs, but you can ascertain whether or not it is possible for you both to meet each others' needs. Maybe you two can date more and talk more and can connect again and you will both voluntarily compromise for each other out of love.

If you are not attracted to the person your wife is becoming and cannot accept the changes she is making in her life, then you should talk to her about this new incompatibility between the two of you. It saddened me to hear that you were "embarrassed of her" when she is just trying to make herself better in whatever way that means, as if it was ridiculous to you that her behavior and attitude could be authentic. How would you feel if she were embarrassed of your complacency? I don't mean to imply that you should change your feelings or be dishonest about them, but they are indicative of a serious disconnect between the two of you. Not only do you see her as undesirable, you see her as worthy of contempt (her attempts at change are seen as pretentious), and you say that she is making derisive comments toward you as well. So, that disconnect is happening on both sides. It's definitely time for you guys to talk about your problems. 

You BOTH deserve to be with people who love and respect you; if you're in a place where you're not being loving and respectful to each other, try first to see if that can be negotiated before resorting to manipulation or rejection.


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## southern wife (Jul 22, 2011)

F-102 said:


> If she hasn't had an affair, she may be ready to. Surely, someone has complimented her on her new style, and she has probably been attracting the attention of other men.


Has she been frequenting the dr's office more often? :scratchhead:


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

moxy, indeed I was being playful with my words, by "leash" I didn't mean a literal one, however I did intend to imply a certain element of control... I don't mean arrogance or unfairness or mistreatment, just simply that SOMEONE needs to be protecting some boundaries in the relationship and it seems over time that the OP's W is becoming more indifferent.

What I am saying from experience, is that if one spouse is becoming disinterested, but could become interested again if the other spouse shows a willingness to take control over things in the marriage, bedroom and household, then why the heck wouldn't they? You say it sounds controlling as if controlling is automatically a bad thing. I agree sometime "too much" control may push the other away, but I know with certainty that too little control just lets them drift away instead, like what is happening in this story. 

So my advice still stands to the OP: be a _little_ more controlling, not abusive or repressive, just simply become a dominant force in your own life, and if this even means being more patriarchal, well maybe that is just the role your W needs you to do even if it goes against what you've always tried to believe, and even if she is vocally offended.

Yes I will get some flak for this point of view for sure, but the dynamic in every relationship is different and if OP can easily adapt to suit his W's needs, and her needs fit within the world he wants to make then who cares if this sounds old fashioned or sexist to outside observers.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Perpetually Perplexed said:


> she tells me she loves me often. But the winks and smiles are gone,
> ...
> She has a pretty conservative nature. Her new style is not provocative,
> ...
> ...


I suspect she is just trying to feel better about herself. She's aging and wants to feel desirable and alive. She wants to feel confident. Dressing up is not a red flag if she's doing it for you, too. It's a sign of building confidence and self-esteem.

Also, I bet she probably does want more romance. Maybe her changes are an effort to spice things up and she doesn't know why you're not responding and feels resentful.

If she's not naturally affectionate and what you're used to is fading, her guards are up and she's being defensive. 

You mention you've been distant with her in the past? Maybe you need to be more affectionate and loving to get her to open up, too.



Perpetually Perplexed said:


> I feel trapped. The times when I have tried to bring up our growing distance, my wife does not seem to have the same interest in the conversation. Her response is, "yes, there are some issues, but nothing we can't work through".....then she will slowly change the subject.
> 
> It may very well be just a wish to be with someone else.


Don't assume she wants someone else. Maybe she wants you and just isn't connecting to you.

Maybe she's afraid to talk about it with you. She is telling you that she is feeling this disconnection too, it sounds like. Maybe she doesn't know how to talk about it or is embarrassed. She seems to think it can be fixed, but won't say what it is. 

Have you tried very firmly just asking her "Why are we disconnecting? Why are you withdrawing? Can we do something to make this better? What do we need to be working through?" As long as you make it a "WE" thing not just something you're expecting her to do, you should be able to draw out of her the reason that she isn't giving you that is there. 

She shouldn't expect you to read her mind, but you could be more forthright and insist that you guys talk about the problem. Maybe she's 180-ing you and you're 180-ing her and you're both confused. The point is, you're not talking about what the problem is and the cold shoulder isn't going to solve it. If you've been distant in the past, the 180 isn't being more distant, but being more romantic.



Perpetually Perplexed said:


> But her numbness just crushes my motivation to try to work on this with her. If she truly does not love me romantically any longer, I have heard that it will not come back. I am now numb myself.


Don't give up. People fall in and out of love. It doesn't have to be over. It can be fixed, if you both want it to be.

Go read "The Five Love Languages" and "His Needs Her Needs" and do the "Marriage Builders" stuff and get a marriage counselor. You can't give up before you've tried everything...right?


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Lon said:


> moxy, indeed I was being playful with my words, by "leash" I didn't mean a literal one, however I did intend to imply a certain element of control... I don't mean arrogance or unfairness or mistreatment, just simply that SOMEONE needs to be protecting some boundaries in the relationship and it seems over time that the OP's W is becoming more indifferent.


This is fair. It almost sounded like you were saying he needed to make her change back into who she used to be because he didn't like the new her. However, it sounds like you're actually saying he needs to take more of an initiative to win her heart back. I agree with that whole-heartedly!


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## Perpetually Perplexed (Feb 21, 2012)

Hi moxy; Your response hit a nerve. You are right. She should really be more embarrassed of me since I am the one who still wears jeans and a t-shirt to church. Just kidding, but there is some truth there too.

I feel bad about my comments about being embarrassed for her at Easter. I hope I don't dig myself deeper, but both of our families have not been as fortunate as we have, so I felt uneasy when she came dressed expensively, and talked about our upcoming Mexico vacation. 

I actually am attracted to some of her changes. I love the new long earrings, higher heels, and some other things she has done to improve. I think I am just defensive and threatened because it doesn't seem like any of it is being done for me. The more she improves herself, the less it seems I matter in her life.

Hi Southern Wife: Doctor's office? I don't think so. I'm not sure I understand your question.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Perpetually Perplexed said:


> I feel bad about my comments about being embarrassed for her at Easter....but both of our families have not been as fortunate as we have, so I felt uneasy when she came dressed expensively, and talked about our upcoming Mexico vacation.


So, in context, it felt like she was showing off a little and she didn't see that, so you were embarrassed. Sometimes people act like fools without thinking about it because they're just not thinking about how they're coming across. Is she insecure and overcompensating?

I understand this a little better, because you don't want her to be a braggart or a snob or insensitive to the circumstances. I imagine that both your families love you though and wouldn't feel slighted by your successes, maybe she just felt excited and proud of how well you were both doing and wanted to share her happiness. Did anyone else see it as out of place or snobby? If you're worried about that, maybe you might be able to say to her next time you guys go to a family thing, "Maybe we could both be a little more casual, because So-and-so might feel embarrassed that they can't afford what we have and we don't want to seem insensitive?" and you could meet her half-way by dressing up a little while she dresses down a little? Is it possible that it just didn't occur to her that it could be seen that way? Or, maybe you could try dressing up a little more and see how it makes you feel, too?

Neither of you should be embarrassed of the other (nor should you hide your feelings if you are), but the fact that you were embarrassed shows that there's a disconnect. 



Perpetually Perplexed said:


> I actually am attracted to some of her changes. I love the new long earrings, higher heels, and some other things she has done to improve.


That's good! Do you ever compliment her? If she is dressing up and making an effort and you show her that you've noticed her, that will make her feel good about herself and it will make you feel good by making you aware of the positives. My dad almost never complimented my mom because he always thought, "she's gorgeous, why do I need to tell her?" and she always felt that he didn't really care that much about the efforts she were making to be beautiful, which were both for her sake and also for him.



Perpetually Perplexed said:


> I think I am just defensive and threatened because it doesn't seem like any of it is being done for me. The more she improves herself, the less it seems I matter in her life.


Why do you think none of it is being done for you?

Are you feeling a little insecure or like you're not getting any attention from her? Have you ever just said "I miss you. I miss getting attention from you and feeling special. Can we go out on a date, just the two of us and be romantic with each other like we used to be?"? For many women, knowing that we are wanted makes us want the guy, too -- especially when we already like him, which in your case, is true. Knowing that she is wanted by you and desired by you might in turn, inspire her to be more generous with her affection. If you do this all the time like every day, then it seems needy, but once in a while...acknowledging that there's a rift between you just encourages the other person that you don't want that rift to be there.


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## Perpetually Perplexed (Feb 21, 2012)

Hi Lon; I understand what you are saying and you have valid points. I don't think I have done a good job of leading my wife and family on the emotional side. I will give this a lot of consideration.

Moxy; I love your comment about both of us doing 180's. I really think this might be the case. My wife is very controlled and can be stubborn. Maybe you are right, we are both confused about what to and are both giving off cold vibes.

The last time I tried to directly talk to her about this was a couple months ago. Her sister was going through some tough times with her alchoholic husband and she mentioned that her sister just needed to vent. I used this as an opportunity to tell her that I felt I needed the same. The conversation went:

Me: How are you feeling about how things are going with 'us'?
Her: Why? How are you feeling?
Me: Discouraged.
Her: I can understand that.
Me: I just see so many people struggling these days and I don't want anything to happen to us. I hope (sister) has been able to bring her issues out in the open. I know it is tough to do, and I know I have a hard time opening up, but I want you to know that I want the very best for us, and am willing to work on things from my side. I don't want to let it go so far that it becomes unfixable.
Her: It is fixable if both people are willing.
Me: Do you feel we are both willing?
Her: I hope so.

Then our son came walking up. When he walked away a minute later, she said..."Hey, did you get the parts we need to fix the vent in the bathroom?"

This is about the 4th time I have initiated conversations, but just get the subject changed on me.

????


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> IMHO the 180 is NOT what to do. I think you need to engage with her more. Do stuff together. Take her out. Take her places where what she is wearing is appropriate. Romance her. Up your game a bit. Casual if you want but classy.


Also, try to make it seem like you're going out anyway and you want to take her along. That way she's joining your adventure instead of answering a desperate plea for attention.

There's something attractive about a person who does stuff even if you don't go with them.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Perpetually Perplexed said:


> Her: It is fixable if both people are willing.
> Me: Do you feel we are both willing?
> Her: I hope so.
> 
> This is about the 4th time I have initiated conversations, but just get the subject changed on me.


Next time, after a subject change, steer the topic back so that she does answer. It just sounds like it got derailed and no one picked it up. As you initially brought up the conversation, be confident that continuing it is okay. She never said "I don't want to talk about this anymore".

How about this from you -- "So what are some things we can both do better for each other? What can I do to make you feel happier about our relationship? I feel like you're distant from me and this makes me unhappy, can you tell me if there's a reason you're withdrawing? You said that we can both fix things if we're both willing, but I don't understand what to fix..."


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## Perpetually Perplexed (Feb 21, 2012)

Hi Moxy; Thanks for your continued thoughts.

Yes, she has a tendency to show off a little. Growing up, her single mom family did not have much money. She has 4 siblings who are not doing well financially either. I have heard her say to friends that she is happy she picked the right man (work eithic, etc..), so that makes me feel good.

Yes, I compliment her. In the old days, I used to get a kiss. Now, if I say something like "wow, that shirt looks good on you", she will smile and say thanks. But if I say something like, "wow, you are so beautiful", she will just roll her eyes.

The reason I don't think her new style is being done for me is because of all the other indications that she seems to be pushing me away emotionally and intimately. She knows that I hate the smell of baby powder (have since our kids were born). Now, she coats herself in it each morning. She knows I don't like the slimey feel of vasaline (sp?) she puts on her lips at night. Now she puts it on before she kisses me goodnight. She will ask when what time I will be coming home from a business trip. I tell her I should be there by 10m (which is her bedtime). She goes to bed and is asleep by 9:45. After 4 days away, she doesn't stay up an extra 10 minutes to see me.

For the above reasons, yes, I have become insecure. I hope I don't show it too much, but it's there for sure. Romance efforts get rejected. Making her feel wanted seems to have a negative affect. A couple years ago, I told her that one of my favorite times of the day was in the morning. She asked why. I told her that I could just lay in bed all day and watch her get ready for the day (meaning getting dressed, drying her hair, putting on her make-up, etc...). From that day on, she started drying her hair and putting on her makeup around the corner in the bathroom where I couldn't really see her. These days, she closes the door.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

All of you smart people are WAY overthinking this. She's just not into him any more. And it looks to me like she's made it obvious she's NOT into fixing it. In some ways she's my wife. I can GUARANTEE you she will never start talking about it. And once you force her to talk, THEN it will get ugly and you will hear about how horrible you are.

I'm taking bets, if anyone is interested.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Hearing all the ways she is pushing you away makes me sad on your behalf. I'm sorry to hear about those things. If you think she is, in fact, just not interested in you and there's nothing else causing those issues, I don't know what to say. Marriage counseling? I can't imagine it would feel good to have things stay like this forever.


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## Perpetually Perplexed (Feb 21, 2012)

Well, it has been really helpful to write all of this out, and thanks to all for so many good responses. It helps me see things in the light. I am an optomistic person, and I think I have kept my head in sand hoping it would all work itself out. It is pretty clear that MrK is probably right.

Neither of us has ever mentioned the word "separation" or "divorce". It may be time for me just to ask her if she is ready.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

From that day on, she started drying her hair and putting on her makeup around the corner in the bathroom where I couldn't really see her. These days, she closes the door.

have you asked why? She seems checked out of the marriage, maybe waiting for the kids to grow up. How often are you out of town on business?


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

I agree with warlock. WHY is an important question.

Are you reading too much into her actions? Is she reading too much into yours? 

Don't go for separation or divorce before you try counseling...you guys don't have crazy bad problems, just a disconnected circuit.


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## Perpetually Perplexed (Feb 21, 2012)

Hi Warlock; Yes, I asked her what was going on and she said she just wanted to not be bothered in the morning. She said she likes some peace and quiet sometimes. It didn't hit me then, but now it is just one of the many things I think about. I remember once when she told me I was "gawking" at her too much.

I travel a couple times a month for a night or two. I have done this through all 20 years of marriage, so it is nothing new.

Yeah, it's hard to hear, but I think you are right. She's definitely checked out in many ways. Maybe she is waiting for the kids to go (youngest is 12).

I'm glad I posted here, but man it is a smack in the head to finally look at this with perspective.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Perpetually Perplexed said:


> *She goes to bed and is asleep by 9:45. After 4 days away, she doesn't stay up an extra 10 minutes to see me.*


Wow. This bothers me ... a lot. Again I can relate to disconnection. When I travel is so important to me to snadwich the travel with essebtailly a farewell an a homecoming. In between I try to call and email and create some anticipation of when I see her again. I did not always do that. I should have. It is important I think.

Yes she seems shutdown and biding her time. While others may be correct I don't like to giveup. Not sure you have anything to lose trying to get to her in some way.

So you don't have date night? You don't o things together? I guess I need to look back but this is a sexless marriage?


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## Perpetually Perplexed (Feb 21, 2012)

Hi moxy; I will think a lot tonight about your question. Are both of us reading things into each others actions, and forcing ourselves into the downward spiral? 

There are many good things about our marriage as well. We have great kids, a nice lifestyle, and similar belief's in many things. You have wondered whether I have asked many questions of her....I am realizing that I have been a poor communicator. Instead of hitting things head on when they came up, I think I have avoided confrontation, and maybe even sulked about them.

If she has checked out, it kind-of explains why she is trying so hard to make a change for herself instead of being just the same as she was for the first 15 years of our marriage.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Perpetually Perplexed said:


> Hi Lon; I understand what you are saying and you have valid points. I don't think I have done a good job of leading my wife and family on the emotional side. I will give this a lot of consideration.
> 
> Moxy; I love your comment about both of us doing 180's. I really think this might be the case. My wife is very controlled and can be stubborn. Maybe you are right, we are both confused about what to and are both giving off cold vibes.
> 
> ...


So you need to make this less about talking about the relationship and more about slowly having one. I agree if everything is a non starter you have to try and talk about it. But past a certain point talking about this stuff is not much fun. At least until the person is ready. You flat have to engage them in other ways. Do something together.


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## Perpetually Perplexed (Feb 21, 2012)

Hi 3000; We do many things together, but almost always with the kids. 

Sex is still there, but diminished to about twice a month. She usually initiates, but there is not a lot of passion there. I don't get rejected when I initiate, but a lot of times she wants it to be a quickie because of one reason or another. No more candles, or music, or playfulness. In all fairness, she has been low-drive for many years. I accepted that and was happy with the level she was comfortable giving. Up through the first few years of marriage, she had more drive but it changed when our first daughter was born.

Suggested a date night, and she goes along with it, but still not with any enthusiasm.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

This sounds alot like my wife. She went through a midlife crisis and changed in many ways. She was looking to change everything about herself including her marriage status. 

The fog is lifting, but she still has expectations far from the fun loving girl I married. Be vigiliant and patient. This could be a long road ahead.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Perpetually Perplexed said:


> Hi 3000; We do many things together, but almost always with the kids.
> 
> Sex is still there, but diminished to about twice a month. She usually initiates, but there is not a lot of passion there. I don't get rejected when I initiate, but a lot of times she wants it to be a quickie because of one reason or another. No more candles, or music, or playfulness. In all fairness, she has been low-drive for many years. I accepted that and was happy with the level she was comfortable giving. Up through the first few years of marriage, she had more drive but it changed when our first daughter was born.
> 
> Suggested a date night, and she goes along with it, but still not with any enthusiasm.


She initiates twice a month. Cool. 

Look, I give my wife full body massages, no strings attached. We usually end up having wondeful sex. I light the candles. I put music on. I intitiate the shower together. I am actively engaging with her. But not just at that time. I make sure I am engaging with her in non sexual ways too. That is foreplay. Sometimes I ask her if she wants a massage but sometimes I just do it and undress her as I go. Sometimes I say that I am wanting to give her a massage and when would she like it. Then she comes to me.

You may just have to carry the lion share of things for a while. Just do it. Don't worry about the enthusiasm. Let her ride yours. If you don't use it you lose it. You have to reconnect the pathways again. You have to rpove you are going to keep engaging her no matter what and you will not stop. 

Nothing wrong with a quickie. If she initiates twice a month and you meet her half way you having sex once a week! if you double down on your efforts you may find that sex gets better. Ley her think that she drives you crazy with desire for her. When you have sex, get lost in it. Let her know you are having a helluva good time. Go for oral on her beforehand is possible. 

I am thinking if she is initiating sex with you, there is still a chance here. 

Let the enthusiasm fix itself. Give her something to be enthused about!! Rick her world. Put in the effort for abut three months of dating her and making love and giving her your passion. Do things with her she likes to do as well as what you enjoy.

Why not?

Work on being an interesting guy. Increase your attractiveness.

A lot of this is Beta but there is also Alpha in a man driving things. Take charge.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

And set the expectation that you want to spend some time with her when you return from trips that evening. Make some plans.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Perpetually Perplexed said:


> The conversation went:
> 
> Me: How are you feeling about how things are going with 'us'?
> Her: Why? How are you feeling?
> ...


Great - you started the conversation. And she told you that she's hoping that you two are wiling to fix it. That means she's hoping you are willing. She knows how she feels. She believes it is fixable She needs to know how you feel and if you believe it's fixable. She was hoping you would say that you are willing to fix things. You could have told her you were willing, even after she changed the subject. So what if she asked a question about something else after your son left the room and you were alone again? NO reason you still couldn't look her in the eye and say "I'm glad you haven't lost hope, because *I* am willing to fix this". What held you back from doing so? Why did you just go along with the change of subject? You don't have to! You can keep talking.

Try taking it a level deeper. You have to keep talking about this, and start being more specific. You have to start taking about the actual problems, so you can work on fixing them.

That is when the ugly truth has to come out, whatever it is. Whatever resentments have built up over the years, the fears, the lost dreams - whatever is comprising the walls between you - has to come out into the open. That's the "work" part in working things out, You have to open up to each other about the things that are hard to talk about; then you can work on fixing them. If you keep that stuff buried or deny that it exists, it stays between you and creates more distance. 

Take some time to schedule a vacation or weekend away, just the two of you. Something casual and relaxing. Show her how special she is to you; show her that you too are hoping that both of you are willing to do the hard work that it takes to work things out. A getaway alone can give you some privacy to talk with each other and begin to reconnect.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

I think it's pretty silly to complain that she has grown but you have not. I hope you are the only person on earth still living life the same, thinking the same, doing the same, and being the same that they were 20 years ago. Perhaps you need an island.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

MrK said:


> All of you smart people are WAY overthinking this. She's just not into him any more. And it looks to me like she's made it obvious she's NOT into fixing it. In some ways she's my wife. I can GUARANTEE you she will never start talking about it. And once you force her to talk, THEN it will get ugly and you will hear about how horrible you are.
> 
> I'm taking bets, if anyone is interested.


I'm tempted to agree with MrK here. Perplexed's wife is not interested in him, or at least is not interested in the outwardly laid back lifestyle and demeanor he exhibits. 

We have Perplexed's demonstrated willingness to meet his wife's needs. Going back to the conversation, we also have his stated willingness to work harder to meet his wife's needs. His wife knows he is troubled, hears he will work harder, acknowledges that it takes effort from both sides, and hopes things will work out. Where is her acknowledgement that he does a lot for her already? Where is her commitment to work on the marriage?

It's bad enough that she does not appear interested in his needs. Moreover, she IS interested in utilizing his earning power to make her lifestyle possible. This attitude of "you are not good enough, but your money is" reeks of disrespect. If the problem is simply a change in taste or outlook, I think she would strive for independence as well. The disrespect is why I think this marriage is heading downhill.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

River1977 said:


> I think it's pretty silly to complain that she has grown but you have not. I hope you are the only person on earth still living life the same, thinking the same, doing the same, and being the same that they were 20 years ago. Perhaps you need an island.


The issue is not that he has not changed himself. It is more that her change is accompanied by disdain and disrespect for him. He's willing to work to meet her needs, and (the way it's told here) she is mainly interested in doing things her way and using him as a means to an end.


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## Perpetually Perplexed (Feb 21, 2012)

Hi norajane; Thanks for your input. The reason I did not continue the conversation after she changed it is because it was obvious that by changing the subject, she did not want to continue with it. I thought continuing would just push her further away. Maybe she was testing me to see if I would keep at it....I don't know. It just seems to me that she guided the conversation elswhere. I got discouraged and gave up.

River1977; I'm not complaining about her growth. We grew together at a reasonable pace for the first 15 years, then she veared off in a different direction. I don't fault her for that. But even if I was on an island, I would hope she would at least help to row the rescue boat.

DTO. Thanks. Yes, she knows I am willing to work to make things better.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Perpetually Perplexed said:


> Hi norajane; Thanks for your input. The reason I did not continue the conversation after she changed it is because it was obvious that by changing the subject, she did not want to continue with it. I thought continuing would just push her further away. Maybe she was testing me to see if I would keep at it....I don't know. It just seems to me that she guided the conversation elswhere. I got discouraged and gave up.


Giving up when you're discouraged is the exact opposite of being willing to *Work *to fix things. You told her you know you have a hard time opening up - you will need to open up in order to fix things. You will need to continue the conversation and keep at it, even when you feel discouraged. You will need to keep listening when she starts opening up. You will need to keep listening and keep talking even when it's hard and you feel discouraged.

No one says it will be _*easy*_. But it will be worth the effort.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Perpetually Perplexed said:


> DTO. Thanks. Yes, she knows I am willing to work to make things better.


Okay then, knowing that she knows, the next step is to secure the same commitment from her. If she won't do it, proceed with caution. IMO if that happens, she either plans to make your needs subordinate to hers, or she just plans to bail out.

I've BTDT to some extent. If I found myself in a troubled marriage again, with a wife unwilling to work on it with me, I would protect myself first and work on the marriage second.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

I once had a boyfriend who told me "I might have a funny way of showing it, but I do love you." That is all I hear from Perpetually Perplexed. The only difference is his actions express those words. The guy treated me like sh*t and when I got it towards our 3-month mark, he could tell I was done, and that was the best he could come up with. It was sorry and sorrier still that I was expected to respond with something like "Oh, okay" and just continue on allowing him to treat me however.

My point is that this woman is not rejecting him. She simply does not know how to respond to his advances because she knows they are advances, and advances are received by many married women as insincere formulations to get sex. He has trained her that he expects sex with every compliment. Not only that, but he has sent her mixed signals time and again. He's the one confused here, not her. It is evident to me she knows who she is and has become the person she wants to be. He just doesn't like it and as many times as he has stated it, he also doesn't like that the changes are not for him. 

She also has no idea how to respond to his attempts to talk about their relationship. He certainly gave us nothing in the way of conversation that indicates he has no more plan and no more motive than to expect her to change for him. He has never once stated anything concrete, nor has he stated anything whatsoever that THEY can do to improve things. For that matter, I don't recall reading anyplace where he said he actually stated anything specific at all. It was all just general and really made her uncomfortable. So yes, she certainly would change the subject. What else is she supposed to do? She can't read his mind. She is not a relationship expert. She has no skills or tools in that area, nor has she any answers to questions that were never asked. Neither does he, so the lame attempts just fall off, and she is more than happy to escape.

To top it all off, he is here.....on this forum. He is here listening to all the unsupported garbage that broken people can think up. The man stated more than once that he checked for several years and found nothing in the way of infidelity. Yet, the woman kept being accused on cheating or preparing to cheat. What on earth? Not everyone cheats. S/He is cheating is not the answer to every marital problem. What is going on is obvious and what is more, it is common. No, not every married woman starts dressing differently, but many, many married women grow tired of hubby's constant demand for sex and doing and saying things just to get it. He said he did a 180. What does that mean? It means he neglected his wife and acted totally unconcerned but suddenly wants to compliment her and *watch* her get dressed in the morning. I know he meant that as a compliment, but she naturally took it as something that made her feel self-conscious. How inconsistent and confusing can one person be? And, how is she expected to respond? Too many men on this forum expect women to just lay down and spread their legs whenever he wants her to. It is sickening how often I read the question asked "what is so hard to just do it?" That is so pathetic. You keep saying the man is not getting his needs met. So what. She has needs too that he has thrown out the window, while he complains that she has changed. Frankly, I don't remember reading that his needs are not being met. He just says with different words that they don't connect anymore, that she has changed, and in so many words that he doesn't know what he's doing. From whence did you guys manufacture all this other stuff? In his two examples of attempts at conversation, she was receptive each time. She refused him not once. He just never specifically stated anything, while expecting her. I wouldn't want to be a part of those conversations either.

Perpetually Perplexed, you need to get off this forum while you still have a marriage and a wife to complain about. I think you are being selfish and I dare say controlling. You have failed at every attempt to address a non-existent problem. If you want more sex; if you want your wife to pay attention to you; if you want a conversation about your relationship, then you have to go where you should have gone in the first place - to marriage counseling to learn the skills and tools to communicate, address concerns, and solve the problems. For starters, you don't begin a serious conversation by tagging on to the end of someone elses problem in the middle of the day with kids running through the house. You ask your wife to take the time to sit down for a discussion. You also don't begin a conversation about your relationship by expecting her to read your mind, nor expecting her to have answers to your vague insinuations. You have only succeeded at making her uncomfortable.

And I dared say you are controlling because you are as much to blame for the condition of your marriage and whatever feelings of neglect you are experiencing, yet you keep trying to take the matter into your own hands and come up with your "plan." How many of your plans have to fail before you get the message? You don't know what you are doing, but you keep expecting your wife to do it. What sense does that make?

Other than that, she has changed. That is all. She feels differently. She thinks differently. She views life differently. She views herself differently. She has grown, and I certainly do hope so. There is nothing wrong with that. In fact, you are also being fickle and confusing here in your various posts to us. Initially, your problem is that she has changed, then you later confess to liking some of the changes but don't like that you are not the focus and center of her world. It is tiresome. You might make her the center of your world and see the results you get instead of expecting her to do backward flipflops for you.

Find a marriage counselor.
Watch this movie.
Read this book.
Become a frequent visitor of this website. First page is Basic Concepts, then other articles are down the ribbon bar on the left side of the page.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

River1977 said:


> My point is that this woman is not rejecting him. She simply does not know how to respond to his advances because she knows they are advances, and advances are received by many married women as insincere formulations to get sex. He has trained her that he expects sex with every compliment. Not only that, but he has sent her mixed signals time and again. He's the one confused here, not her. It is evident to me she knows who she is and has become the person she wants to be. He just doesn't like it and as many times as he has stated it, he also doesn't like that the changes are not for him.
> 
> She also has no idea how to respond to his attempts to talk about their relationship. He certainly gave us nothing in the way of conversation that indicates he has no more plan and no more motive than to expect her to change for him. He has never once stated anything concrete, nor has he stated anything whatsoever that THEY can do to improve things. For that matter, I don't recall reading anyplace where he said he actually stated anything specific at all. It was all just general and really made her uncomfortable. So yes, she certainly would change the subject. What else is she supposed to do? She can't read his mind. She is not a relationship expert. She has no skills or tools in that area, nor has she any answers to questions that were never asked. Neither does he, so the lame attempts just fall off, and she is more than happy to escape.
> 
> ...


Hmm,

That is an awful lot to read into his posts.

First, her not cheating does not mean she is treating him well. Although Perplexed did not say he does this, it is appropriate to gauge marital happiness in part on sexual satisfaction. Perplexed may feel his wife will stick to sex every other week for reasons having nothing to do with him. You may be surprised how many women think this is good frequency - period - and how many men think it is poor. My sense is that you believe good sex must be earned rather than simply is a normal part of marriage.

Second, she obviously is changing. However, I don't think change per se is the problem. It seems like the problem is more like she does not try to connect with him. My sense is that she has taken a "screw you" attitude and does her own thing. I don't see such personal luxuries as indicators of change so much as taking advantage of circumstance.

Third, I don't see how Perplexed is being controlling. She might have been this person all along, but the resources to live that life don't just materialize. They are generated through Perplexed's hard work and sacrifice. If he is providing, how can he be controlling? I, OTOH, feel pretty much the opposite; it is more likely he is enabling her. Even though he has told her (and she acknowledges) he is troubled, his continued generosity says that she can treat him any old way without consequence.

Going back to what I said earlier, I think the problem stems her lack of respect, which may have roots in his passive behavior. He tries to engage and she changes the subject (we agree on this). You note that she ends the discussion before the topic comes back to his needs. That begs the question "why don't his needs matter". She seems to be having a good ol' time; she should, as his partner, want the same for him too.

To Perplexed:

One thing I forgot to mention is that you need to make sure you are not using "covert contracts". That means you don't do nice stuff you would rather not do in the hope of getting her to better meet your needs. The better way is to know and be comfortable with who you are and what you do, and express that openly to your wife. 

"Covert contracts" fail on many levels: (1) if you consistenty give more than you can sustain, eventually you become tense and angry, which is a huge turn-off, (2) women are not mind readers either so you need to say what you want, and (3) they make you seem manipulative and wimpy, also a turnoff.

So, you need to be open and confident regarding your needs. If you are being extra-nice just to win favor, stop. If you can keep it up without getting anything back, fine. If not, there's nothing wrong with saying "I see a disconnect in what you and I bring to and get from this marriage. We need to discuss and perhaps find a new medium, because this does not work".


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## Perpetually Perplexed (Feb 21, 2012)

River and DTO; Thank you for your responses. I didn't realize how lost I am until I posted this and really started to evaluate my situation. This process has been very helpful.

River; You are spot on with much of your evaluation. I think you sum it up best with your paragraph that ends with..."You don't know what you are doing, but you keep expecting your wife to do it. What sense does that make?" This is really true. It was hard for me to hear at first, but you are right on many levels.

DTO; Any covert contracts I have used have probably been less for sex, but more for affection. My wife initiates sex most of the time (which may be a problem in itself). It just fell into that pattern many years ago and since she knows I have a higher drive, she knows that I will always be ready. I have not pressured her, but maybe she feels pressure that I was not aware of. However, I am certain that I have bounced back and forth between being a positive and happy person when my wife and I are clicking, to grouchy and down when we are not. This is further proof that I just don't know who I really am and what I'm supposed to do.

I will think seriously about the advice you both give. I appreciate everyone who has taken the time to help me.


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

Perplexed- In addition to the nicer clothes, is she also becoming more fit, working out more? Have her looks improved over the years relative to others in her age group? How about you? Have you gained weight over the years? What I'm getting at is what's called "Sex Rank." Maybe she thinks she's moved past you and is better looking than you lately and because of this, isn't attracted to you anymore.


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## Suzyque (Apr 6, 2012)

Originally posted by DTO:

"It's bad enough that she does not appear interested in his needs. Moreover, she IS interested in utilizing his earning power to make her lifestyle possible. This attitude of "you are not good enough, but your money is" reeks of disrespect. If the problem is simply a change in taste or outlook, I think she would strive for independence as well. The disrespect is why I think this marriage is heading downhill."

I agree 100 %. I'm stunned that she has done all her "classing up" on his dollar. I can never comprehend why some men (and women too) allow this kind or parasitic behavior. In my opinion, she nneds a dose of reality, get off her pampered rear and GET A JOB.

As for the comment she made about gawking, I do understand that. She is getting older and has a 16 year old daughter without the problems of aging. She may well look in the mirror and hate what she sees (signs of aging), so she is determined not to go down without a fight.

But she will roll her eyes when he tells her she is beautiful because she doesn't think she is, and is using all these props to aid her. I used to not be able to apply makeup when my H was in the room; I thought he would find it vain and silly, and it would show him everything I was trying so hard to hide!


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## Perpetually Perplexed (Feb 21, 2012)

Hi Cubby; She has always kept herself fit, and has always been very pretty. I have also kept fit. My hair is getting gray and a little thinner, but I have not gained weight or developed any new issues to speak of. I guess it is possible that she sees herself on a higher 'sex rank', but I'm not sure. She probably sees my dress code lacking compared to her new style. I should probably think about that more. 

Suzyque; Thanks for your thoughts. She works hard to try to control some softness in her mid-section, and I know she has developed some concern over the appearing wrinkles in her face. But overall, her body has not changed much in the last 10years. She has spent a lot of time getting rid of stretch marks, unwanted peach fuzz on her face, and a few other things that didn't seem to bother her much in ealier years. I can't imagine that she would be too shy about her body with me. I really think it is her not feeling close to me anymore.

I don't think I hold any resentment over her not working or bringing in money. She runs the house better than I run my businesses. She is far from lazy, and truly spends well under our means. You are right about disrespect, but I think I have that problem too. Through this exhange, I am learning a lot about what she might be thinking and a lot about myself.

Many thanks


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

I hope I'm not one of those "broken people giving advice that is nothing more than unsupported garbage". And I certainly won't attempt to lay out an exhaustive summary of your entire marriage just based these few posts, either, but I would like to offer a little feedback based on what you describe, if that is okay?

Mostly, it was issues with my midlife 'episode' that brought me to this site. Our issues were not sexual in nature, or the result of infidelity, but more or less a realization that I was working really hard to help my wife cope with some long term issues with depression, and insecurity, and I had completely put my own needs in the marriage on a shelf. I was far from perfect, but a similar status quo had fallen into place, where I felt like my wife had quit working for the marriage. We made our way through this. Still are. I stay on the site because offering insight helps me to also stay focused on what I need to do for the marriage, and not just what she should be doing.

So, I sense some similarities, at least when it comes to feeling an emotional imbalance. 

If I can be honest, I saw some things that Entropy picked up on early. You said that she mostly initiates when it comes to sex. Does this carry over into other areas when it comes to passion in the marriage?

Call me foolish and naive, but I think many wives in your wife's situation would crave an incredibly passionate edge to the relationship. So many things in our day to day life can take a relaxed course, but not this. Find out if she once assumed, or dreamed, that marriage would be all about the times where you pursued her, initiated, and focused on her just because of who she is, and not the sex that she could provide. As Entropy said, be bold and carry the load for a while.

I'm not saying that there wouldn't be a problem with underlying resentment, and that she is somehow excused from finding ways to express the reasons that led to this pushing away. But you describe so many good things about her. Its worth being the one to initiate marriage counseling, dates, and a passionate connection, while also trying to help her see the importance of learning to meet you half way.

I understand the hard-to-explain uneasiness with the way her style has changed. It doesn't mean that you are controlling. It can open the question as to whether her love has been carried along only by your success financially. But in my opinion, her change could go along with an underlying resentment, or disillusionment about what she could perceive to be as a relaxed attitude about sexual passion, or being driven to keep the relationship exciting, and growing. 

I also think that she could've been non-committal about her response to your questions because she has reached a level of acceptance about what she can realistically hope for in the relationship. Maybe it is hard for her to explain, or she feels guilty for wanting more out of the relationship, given the other sucesses in your lives. I could easily be wrong. I just think it is too early to assume that this is hopeless, or her way of biding her time in an exit strategy. She could've had such thoughts, granted, but you mention some really good positives in the relationship. Focus on fixing first. Just my opinion.


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## Perpetually Perplexed (Feb 21, 2012)

Hello Halien; Thanks for your response. I welcome your insight, and it seems we share some similarities.

As you can imagine, I have been studying each response and doing my best to learn about my situation from those who have experience.

I'm not sure how this will sound, but my wife and I have never been overly passionate in our marriage. Even when first dating, we didn't hold hands much, make out, look into each other's eyes, have an "our-song", or anything else like that. This was quite different from my previous relationship (8 year girlfriend) which was full of passion, and eventually exploded. I quickly realized that my wife was on a different wavelength. She was reserved, cautious, unsentimental, somewhat inhibited, etc... I actually really loved this about her. She did not pressure me, smother me, or demand a lot. She was very self confident, moral, low-key, and seemed to have her life together. My attempts throughout our dating and marriage to be romantic, passionate, spontaneous did not get the results I expected so I just settled into a more low-key approach to her. She responded more to a simpler style. As we married, I am certain that we both felt we had the perfect fit. I would describe the first 15 years of marriage (out of 20) were 'comfortable' for both of us. Sex was ample/acceptable, and I was very happy regardless of what seemed to be a lack of passion. The love I saw in her eyes and the way she spoke to me gave me all the passion I needed.

Over time, this comfort level just seemed to evolve into routines. As I said before, I have always had higher sex-drive, so we just got to the point where she knew I was ready to go whenever she was in the mood. Many other things fell into place as well. We both knew our own roles and responsibilities (household duties, money, discipline for the kids, etc.), and there were not many challenges we had to deal with. 

You may be right. Maybe she has just developed different expectations than just being routine and comfortable. Maybe I didn't pick up on the fact that she had become bored with me. This is highly possible.

I have also thought a lot about the question of me being 'controling'. I actually think it is the opposite. I am so far from being controling, that I may actually come across as non-caring, uninterested, and non-connected. I have never been jealous with her, or demanding of her time. Over time, this may have been interpreted by her as distant in my own way toward her.

Resentment? Yes, probably some going both ways in the past 5 years. I worked pretty hard over the past few years when the economy was more challenging for my businesses, and I know that she felt that I was often preoccupied and more grumpy. And I have developed some resentments over her new style and attitude (which started this post). 

She still says 'I love you' to me often. She still talks about the future together, and she is still friendly to me every day. But the love-light has burned out in her eyes for sure.

Sorry if I am re-hashing everything. It is helpful for me to write this out even if I am being repetitive. I can see now that my original concern about my wife's new 'style' is really much deeper. As she has pushed me away with all of her little actions, I think I have pouted and allowed it to happen. As I pouted, I just drove it deeper into the downward spiral.

I am going to take the advice from you and the others who have responded. I am going to carry the load, and do my best to ignore when she ignores me, be happy, and confident. I will take the lead little by little and see where it leads. 

Thanks again to all.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Yeah she may have just changed in some key areas. Worth a try.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Your last response shed an important light on the dynamics of the marriage, I believe. It emphasizes why I think it is inappropriate to jump to conclusions when it comes to trying to offer our own suggestions. Outwardly, it might appear as if there could be an issue with being controlling, or alot of resentment on her side. But it almost sounds like this is a very slow, gradual decline in health of the marriage. 

So many things could be contributing to what happened, many centered on resentment and just letting things slide. Do you think that the change in her attentiveness in how she dressed could be linked to insecurities? Her unwillingness to pressure you, being more reserved in how she embraces intimacy can often be a part of insecurity. My wife sometimes was hesitant to ask for more because of questioning her self-worth, in a sense. You make up for it by accenting external things to feel wothy and attractive. Over time, even a small degree of unmet needs can grow.

I'm not suggesting what could be called a radical makeover in the way you create a sexual edge, or passion. I'd suggest starting small, and gauging her response. Let this build it even more. You can start with just a couple of things that you do regularly, along with taking the time to schedule dates and time together. I'd suggest being very honest and upfront about what you plan to do, and why you are doing it, which is to see that spark in her eyes that means she is happy. Talk about wanting to grow beyond holding on to resentment. Focus only on your actions and intentions, but being direct and open about it is implicitly a challenge to ask her to do the same thing.


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## dontwanttoloseher (Aug 21, 2010)

wow, thats funny, and not the "ha ha" funny. I was just ging to post something similar about my wife. After 15 years of marriage, raising her two nephews for 6 of them, taking care of her grandparents for 3 and 5 years at the same time as her nephews and raising our own 2 kids (14 and 11) having worked 3 jobs at times to support the mob and currently working my own business now in a struggling area of Fl where unemployment is 17% and we are more then surviving..... Last night she tells me I am not, never was and never will be motivated to make "real" money.

When the eason I married her was we both thought family and being happy was always more important then money. But i guess her job in a "multi million dollar company" and her new money hungray freinds and bosses have changed her miind. This all started cause 1 boss was complaining to her about his wife not being happy that he is spending too much time at work. He said he could go back to being a school teacher, but don't think she could handle moving out of their 400k home and a pay cut back to 50k. which coincidentally is around what i make.

I also did and occasionally still do the snooping thing and found nothing, but still some deleted phone calss and texts from the "men" not all texts but certain ones.

I am thinking her thought process is changing being around these "rich" guys all day and though I was great and sweet and kind hearted b4 busting my ass for her family, maybe I am not enough anymore maybe we are just drigting apart. priorities change I guess.


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## luvmydarling (Jul 1, 2010)

OP,

I feel weird to write this, but your wife sounds a little like me. The only difference is, I was sober for 2 years, and your wife has been sober for over a decade before you are seeing this change.

Well, about me, I'm not having an affair or a mid-life crisis. i just like to feel good about myself . I had quit my job after marriage(because of multiple relocation for H's job etc), was a SAHW, did not have kids. Life was romantic and nice.

Then, I got frustrated with my own life. I never met friends, did not talk to my family much, had no job, felt useless and so on. However,I'm not the kind of person who is affectionate or romantic all the time. 

so,I started working again in 2011. This meant, I got an oppurtunity to dress up again. I do not dress provocatively or vulgar but just very nice dressing to the point that people have started giving me complements and have started noticing me(at work place and in public places too).

All this feels nice for sure but deep in my heart I know that I want more recognition from my husband. May be this is what is making me "change". I too feel disconnected from my husband for no fault of his.However, I believe that people fall in and out of love.

When I was not working, husband had a lot of time on his hands because I used to do everything inside the house. Now, he has to take up a few things too and this leaves him drained. We hardly get the time to go on vacations or meet friends together.

I used to be a fitness and health freak 3-4 years ago and then I stopped everything and started putting on weight. Recently, 2 months ago, I've got back to swimming,yoga and running/walking..I must say I TRULY feel good. I've lost weight, I feel better, body is more flexible. This is something my husabdn has also observed but then I secretly wish that he does something to his body too. Well, if I can keep myself attractive, I feel I deserve a partner who does this to me too.

You say you like some of her changes : my advice is GO AHEAD and SAY it, she will fu**ing love it. That's probably all that she wants. 

And,NEVER ever has the word separation or divorce crossed my mind, by the way. May be i'm just going through a pahse of falling out of love and I will be right back in love in a few months. I was madly in love with my husband for a very long time, a total of 5 years may be. 
I'm a very optimistic person, just like you and I believe all will be fine. Life is too long a journey to not get bored of a partner(i feel).
Your wife may be self-obssessed with herself just like I am, at the moment.

Sorry, I do not really have advice for you , as other do but I just wanted to share my situation.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Op

Stop thinking and start doing

If your wife is dressing to the nines, then you dress to the tens. Go out to the gym more. Make sure you go out with your buddies more. Be perpetually happy and optimistic at home. Be goofy. Be fun. Be flirty. Even if she doesn't respond right away, she will. This is basic psychology. She will have no choice but to change her behavior.

Sometimes when you do these changes, you expect a certain response. But it doesn't always happen. Then you may feel let down or despondent. That's normal. The trick is to keep at it. Always be the man in charge. The man who's got it together. And I'm going to throw out the term Alpha male here. Always think you are the King Shat, even if she's now working with people, particularily men, that seem to hold high positions. The truth is, these guys are just men. Some will have thier own issues. And some of them, in my experience, are such fakers it's pathetic. 

Don't be a ****. Just be a man. Make positive changes in your own personality, and be the man you always knew you were. Hell, be the man you always wanted to be. These types of changes can only be positive. And don't fake it. Just be your best, with that "don't frak with me attitude". Take charge at home. Take charge of your life.

In reality, you can't make your wife do what you want. But with positive changes in your life, ...again, ....your forcing behavioral changes in those around you. Your wife being one of them.

This kind of stuff brought so many positive changes in my life, I can't begin to explain. It's only something you can experience yourself. 

Hope this helps.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Perpetually Perplexed (Feb 21, 2012)

Thasks 'lovemydarling'; Your response is encouraging. I'm not sure what you mean by 'sober'? but I am glad to hear from others who may be feeling how my wife it. Are you still attracted to your husband? or does your attraction to him fade as you are feeling that you are falling out of love?

Thanks 'Halien' and 'alphaomega'; Good advice, and I have already begun to move forward as you and others have suggested, and will do my best to keep it up.

My biggest challenge will be to keep my spirits up when the little rejections come. The rejections have deflated me. The more I think about all of this, the more I realized that I have pouted about too many things.

I also need to get over my feelings that she is wishing she was with someone else. I don't know how to control this. As I stated in my original post, I allowed myself to think that her changes indicated she might be having an affair. With the depth of snooping I have done, I would have found something by now. But I must admit that I still get discouraged when I allow myself to think that maybe she is daydreaming about some other guy at her gym, or the milkman, or ????, because it is clear that she no longer daydreams about me. 

I can see that I am just creating my destiny if I keep up my negative thoughts.

I am really glad all of you are out there. My best wishes to you all.


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## thomas603 (Apr 13, 2012)

I have a friends wife who is doing this. They almost got a divorce, but instead took a 1 year trial separation and it worked.

Your wife is bored to heck with you, the marriage and your life. Not really your fault, you are who you are. But she is left feeling empty inside, and is starting the process of feeling good about herself. The clothes are just the start.

She needs a break from you. From life. From everything. She can't possibly make this change on her own with everyone around her breathing down her neck.

One therapist I know gave some sound advice on this. Divorce the marriage, while you are married. Shut down, do you your own thing. Take attention for yourself. 

She's not going anywhere, she just needs to head way out, round about for a while, learn how to listen to her heart and then she'll come back. Just give her space and do not rush her ( this may take 1-2 years for her to figure out )


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

thomas603 said:


> I have a friends wife who is doing this. They almost got a divorce, but instead took a 1 year trial separation and it worked.
> 
> Your wife is bored to heck with you, the marriage and your life. Not really your fault, you are who you are. But she is left feeling empty inside, and is starting the process of feeling good about herself. The clothes are just the start.
> 
> ...


We see this so many times on this forum and others like it, " Give them space", "you are not meeting their needs" etc. and I call "bunk". For the most part the husbands of these women have already bent over backwards, worked their asses off to support their family, and have gone totally Beta to do it. Now when the kids are almost gone they are sent to the glue factory like an old draft horse who is no longer needed, nearly always traded in for some seedy affair excitement.

I think in this case the marriage has been in trouble for a while and the wife is in the stages of moving on, it's just a matter of opportunity. 

Some women with avoidant personalities use treatment of this type, escalating it to the point it's the husband who can't take it anymore, either asks for divorce or "Steps Out". She then is not seen as the "Bad One" and has an excuse for her actions. 

I'd suggest picking day when there are no kids around and say " Honey we have to talk right now, I'm serious" Plan it out well ahead of time exactly what you want to talk about, be level headed and prepared for the very worst. 
I did this with my wife, after going thorough what you did, being put off when trying to talk about what was going on. It caught her unprepared and the mask came off. I didn't recognize what was underneath, a total alien, the whole facade dropped. In my case she had been planning her "Escape" for over six months, she could give me no real reasons other than being "Unhappy", claimed there was no OM, she left 3 days later. Four months later I find out an OM had appeared just about the same time I started to notice these changes in my wife's behavior and appearance. In your case there may not yet be an OM, but it looks like it's going in that direction. All you can do is up your game ala the Married Mans sex blog, raise your rank as high as you can. If that does not work you'll be at your best if you find yourself back on the market.


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## luvmydarling (Jul 1, 2010)

Perpetually Perplexed said:


> Thasks 'lovemydarling'; Your response is encouraging. I'm not sure what you mean by 'sober'? but I am glad to hear from others who may be feeling how my wife it. Are you still attracted to your husband? or does your attraction to him fade as you are feeling that you are falling out of love?


Perpetually perplexed, What I meant by 'sober' was, I was not myself - I felt dull, I did not have interest in a lot of things, satisfied with my life, and so on. Something had changed in me, for whatever reason. I did not mean to say that your wife was sober, I'm sorry if I appeared to mean that way.

Yes, I am attracted to my husband but not excited (not sexual excitation,generally excited) as I used to be before. I'm not falling totally out of love either. I really don't know how to put this, but I know that I'm getting bored. 
I'm sure this is a phase for your wife and sooner or later, you are going to catch up with her or she will end up walking back to you. Yous situation is a little more different because you are married for a long time with kids. In my situation, I'm married for 4 years.


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## luvmydarling (Jul 1, 2010)

thomas603 said:


> Your wife is bored to heck with you, the marriage and your life. Not really your fault, you are who you are. But she is left feeling empty inside, and is starting the process of feeling good about herself. The clothes are just the start.
> 
> She needs a break from you. From life. From everything. She can't possibly make this change on her own with everyone around her breathing down her neck.
> 
> ...


:iagree:
This is bang on:smthumbup:! I agree with this. She is bored and this is no one's fault really. She will be back in a few months or may be a couple of years.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

luvmydarling said:


> :iagree:
> This is bang on:smthumbup:! I agree with this. She is bored and this is no one's fault really. She will be back in a few months or may be a couple of years.



If that's the case, kick her to the curb and find someone else. Nobody deserves to be second choice or a spare tire and be put on "Hold" for a couple of years, give me a break. People need to grow up, it isn't anyone else's job to keep her entertained, being bored IS her fault. She needs to be told to either explain her issues, what she's looking for, what she feels they have to do as a couple. If not, she should leave to figure it out on her own and on her own dime.


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## luvmydarling (Jul 1, 2010)

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> If that's the case, kick her to the curb and find someone else. Nobody deserves to be second choice or a spare tire and be put on "Hold" for a couple of years, give me a break. People need to grow up, it isn't anyone else's job to keep her entertained, being bored IS her fault. She needs to be told to either explain her issues, what she's looking for, what she feels they have to do as a couple. If not, she should leave to figure it out on her own and on her own dime.


I actually agree with you too. But sometimes we feel that way in life, its not like we hate our spouse, we just need some "space/alone time" to do a few things. unfortunately, such things affect the SO and I really don't know how we could get that time. the emotional and intellectual connect just vanishes for some time. Sad, but it happens It is happening to me right now and I'm hoping that things get on track soon.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

luvmydarling said:


> I actually agree with you too. But sometimes we feel that way in life, its not like we hate our spouse, we just need some "space/alone time" to do a few things. unfortunately, such things affect the SO and I really don't know how we could get that time. the emotional and intellectual connect just vanishes for some time. Sad, but it happens It is happening to me right now and I'm hoping that things get on track soon.



Having been through this crap, and reading thousands of posts on forums like this is, I can say it often boils down the "to do a few things" means hooking up with some old BF on FB, some guy at work, or some random dude at the Gym. 

While a lot often get's dropped on the spouse who get the dumped for their "Neglect", it really seems to be a case they married people with borderline personality disorders. Unable to place any blame on themselves they look at the only other constant in their life, their spouse, and blame them. BDP people often marry people who make them feel safe, morph to their interests for years until MLC/hormonal changes kick in late 30's to early 50's. It's sick, sad and appears to be going mainstream with books like "Eat , Pray, Love" and movies like "Crazy Stupid Love".


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Perpetually Perplexed said:


> I have also thought a lot about the question of me being 'controling'. I actually think it is the opposite. I am so far from being controling, that I may actually come across as non-caring, uninterested, and non-connected. I have never been jealous with her, or demanding of her time. Over time, this may have been interpreted by her as distant in my own way toward her.


Good God, give this woman some passion!

Trying to court her, date her, win her heart in a wild and romantic way might just fix all of this. Does she read romance novels, at all? Try reading one to get an idea of what excites her and just go excite her a little.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> If that's the case, kick her to the curb and find someone else. Nobody deserves to be second choice or a spare tire and be put on "Hold" for a couple of years, give me a break. People need to grow up, it isn't anyone else's job to keep her entertained, being bored IS her fault. She needs to be told to either explain her issues, what she's looking for, what she feels they have to do as a couple. If not, she should leave to figure it out on her own and on her own dime.


Yes. Waiting for a wife to go away and hoping they come back is absurd.

Eiether you work on a marriage of you don't and move on ... in my opinion. The other is a type of ambivalence. I think he should work on it.

Do not separate. If it comes to that then go for divorce. The intent here is not to divorce. It is to influence to work on the marriage.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

moxy said:


> *Good God, give this woman some passion!
> *
> Trying to court her, date her, win her heart in a wild and romantic way might just fix all of this. Does she read romance novels, at all? Try reading one to get an idea of what excites her and just go excite her a little.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

Indeed. It may be just that simple.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> Indeed. It may be just that simple.


I often wonder....why does it always have to be us guys to do all this "Wooing"? After all marriage is supposed to be about two mature adults, a 50/50 deal, not a couple of kids in high school. If the wife withdraws and refuses to talk about it this raises very red flags that they are already gone. 

By all means try everything, but it just seems like some spouses have very unreal expectations as to what "they deserve" and seldom realize their part in the boredom that can set in after 20 years. You can't keep it fresh if the other party refuses to use the saran wrap ;~)


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> I often wonder....why does it always have to be us guys to do all this "Wooing"? ... If the wife withdraws and refuses to talk about it this raises very red flags that they are already gone.
> 
> ....it just seems like some spouses have very unreal expectations as to what "they deserve"


If the wife withdraws because the husband is being distant, then it's his job to show her that he cares.

Doesn't sound like she's being a princess or expecting it all to be one-sided. Sounds like she thinks he's not that into her, while he thinks she's the one who is not into him. Since he admits to being withdrawn and also feels the problem more acutely, the onus is on him to try to ignite the spark again.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

moxy said:


> If the wife withdraws because the husband is being distant, then it's his job to show her that he cares.
> 
> Doesn't sound like she's being a princess or expecting it all to be one-sided. Sounds like she thinks he's not that into her, while he thinks she's the one who is not into him. Since he admits to being withdrawn and also feels the problem more acutely, the onus is on him to try to ignite the spark again.


Somebody has to break the spiral downword. A man of substance and action would do this because he can.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Somebody has to break the spiral downword. A man of substance and action would do this because he can.


I don't know, we see this over and over again in these forums, hubby does what he's supposed to do in regards to being a family man, and the wife withdraws and gives no input for her withdrawal. Sure he should do what he has to, but these situations always seems one-sided with hubby being so beta he's willing to take all the blame. Women need to speak the [email protected] up and quit expecting us to be mind readers.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> I don't know, we see this over and over again in these forums, hubby does what he's supposed to do in regards to being a family man, and the wife withdraws and gives no input for her withdrawal. Sure he should do what he has to, but these situations always seems one-sided with hubby being so beta he's willing to take all the blame. Women need to speak the [email protected] up and quit expecting us to be mind readers.


But here is the rub. The type of man I am talking about is someone who does not care about the other men on the forum. In no way am I talking about being Beta. I am talking about an Alpha male that is claiming his wife. So if you read my words as suggesting a man should be Beta you are missing my point completely. I am suggesting he grow some nads or get his T level checked and be Alpha. Everything I have read infers a very passive and submissive approach. Maybe just someone who has shutdown.

I am not suggesting he iron more clothes. I am suggesting that he takes his wife like he means it. That is Alpha.

I also suggested he do this for about three months. Then if she is just not into him, he can do the 180 and look into divorce. 

She may just be tired of waiting on him. They have sex twice a month when she initiates. There is a darn good chance she just needs to be loved well and often. There are other men out there who would be willing to do that if he is not. So I encourage him to engage in a very positive manner.


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## Posse (Jan 30, 2012)

OP: I have one very big tip for you.

Blog | Married Man Sex Life

Read it from the first post to the current post. Take the day off tomorrow if you have to. Read it. Digest it. Then act on it where you see your deficiencies.


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## Posse (Jan 30, 2012)

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> I often wonder....why does it always have to be us guys to do all this "Wooing"? After all marriage is supposed to be about two mature adults, a 50/50 deal, not a couple of kids in high school. If the wife withdraws and refuses to talk about it this raises very red flags that they are already gone.
> 
> By all means try everything, but it just seems like some spouses have very unreal expectations as to what "they deserve" and seldom realize their part in the boredom that can set in after 20 years. You can't keep it fresh if the other party refuses to use the saran wrap ;~)


Marriage is never 50/50. Sometimes it is 80/20, sometimes it is 20/80, sometimes it is 40/60, sometimes it is 60/40, sometimes it is 99/1, sometimes it is 1/99.

If the percentages are consistently against you, maybe it is time to rethink what you are doing in your relationship.

Marriage and life are contact sports, even if we don't want them to be. Marriage is the most punishing contact sport for people here on TAM because we care about the people we are married to.

Life is hard. Get a helmet.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

Posse said:


> Marriage is never 50/50. Sometimes it is 80/20, sometimes it is 20/80, sometimes it is 40/60, sometimes it is 60/40, sometimes it is 99/1, sometimes it is 1/99.
> 
> If the percentages are consistently against you, maybe it is time to rethink what you are doing in your relationship.
> 
> ...


That's kind of the point I'm trying to make, there is something wrong if the husband has to make all these changes and the wife does not. Nobody should continually have to give far more than the other. If it gets to the point the wife won't talk and withdraws she's either already "gone" in her mind, or has someone waiting in the wings. It might be better to force the issue, clear the air and move on if need be. 

These boards are full of men who've spent the better part of a year working in the dark, trying to guess what went wrong, tearing themselves up, doing the MAP/180 only to find it would have been better to cut to the chase and get it over with. Once a woman's love for you is gone for you it rarely comes back, better to get it out in the open than spend a year in turmoil while she plans her exit.


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## Posse (Jan 30, 2012)

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> That's kind of the point I'm trying to make, there is something wrong if the husband has to make all these changes and the wife does not. Nobody should continually have to give far more than the other. If it gets to the point the wife won't talk and withdraws she's either already "gone" in her mind, or has someone waiting in the wings. It might be better to force the issue, clear the air and move on if need be.
> 
> These boards are full of men who've spent the better part of a year working in the dark, trying to guess what went wrong, tearing themselves up, doing the MAP/180 only to find it would have been better to cut to the chase and get it over with. Once a woman's love for you is gone for you it rarely comes back, better to get it out in the open than spend a year in turmoil while she plans her exit.


No argument here. Unfortunately when things get to that point, the other party usually isn't upfront or honest about what is going on.


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## dymo (Jan 2, 2012)

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> Once a woman's love for you is gone for you it rarely comes back, better to get it out in the open than spend a year in turmoil while she plans her exit.


Numbers are stacked against him, but it does come back for some. If someone loved you once, there's always a chance they can love you again. There's a thread here that went 100+ pages over 6 months before there was a turnaround (hopefully it lasts). You can't fault someone for trying to save one of their most important relationships. 

That said, I agree that OP needs to put some thought into how long he is willing to live with this. There has to be a limit.

Edit: If the love returns to her eyes, but she remains the same materialistic, image driven stranger she is now, is that still someone you can love?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

I here from some that once a woman shutdown she is gone for ever. I do believe this is tru in all cases. Marriages can shutdown for various reasons.

To turn it around one spouse or the other willl likely have to do the heavy lifting for a while. It is not about fairness. It is about someone taking action to reverse the spiral downward. The intent is to reform the connection where the spouses can interact again. Getting the train back on the track. It takes great effort to undo things that happened over many years.

The hope then is that once one spouse shows the other that they are all in, there is a possibility they will re-engage. Without an effort by one or the other there will be no re-engaging.

In this case it is hard to tell but it seems very possible she has given up waiting for him. Since she is initiating twice a month I think that he should engage with full effort. There is a spark. Maybe the marriage is only mostly dead ... 

Some women want the man to be the initiator. They feel desired.

The men mentioned on this board are typically very Beta and not attractive to their wives or their wives are in an affair. This is the big difference. See www.marriedmansexlife.com

Sorry, I have very littel synpathy for folks that whine and complain that they cannot succeed and therfore do not try. If a man or woman really give the effort and after a reasonable amount of time then they should move on IMHO. But they should not move on untill they have exhausted these reasonable efforts. So the man should do all he can to get his attractiveness back. This woman loved him at one time.


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## Perpetually Perplexed (Feb 21, 2012)

I have listened carefully to everyone who has taken the time to help me. I have also read hundreds of other posts. I just want to say thanks to everyone. 

I have taken responsibility for my own contributions to the downward spiral, and have spent the last couple of weeks doing my best to take charge and head things in the right direction.

I realize that it has taken many years to get to this point, and that it will maybe take years to turn it around. But as for today, I will enjoy a couple of very small, but significant events that indicate that my wife is responding to some of the subtle changes I have made.


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