# Do affairs sometimes make people address marital problems that they've been ignoring?



## Daisy10 (Nov 10, 2013)

It seems like married people that have been complacent in their marriage, even after persistent complaints, have only two choices after an affair comes to light, to address/fix the problems in their marriage that they've been ignoring for years, or to divorce. Infidelity seems to make SOMETHING happen whereas nothing was happening before. Of course, the 3rd option, which some people try to take, is to stay married, _yet not try to improve anything_, and just remain reeling mad at the WS and continuously fire on them/blame them. I wonder how that works out? 

Thoughts?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

There are some people who have said their marriage was "stronger" or "better" after an affair came to light. But I think those situations are few and far between.

C


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## Daisy10 (Nov 10, 2013)

PBear said:


> There are some people who have said their marriage was "stronger" or "better" after an affair came to light. But I think those situations are few and far between.
> 
> C


Just based on my observations, it seems like majority of people stay married though, so I'm wondering what they do....


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## Lilly_daddy (Jul 4, 2009)

If there are problems/issues within your marriage then an EA or PA will always make it worse. If either of those was as a result of having a problematic marriage then get out of the marriage first then engage in the activity. I always told myself I would never be one of those guys that gave in to temptation. II have integrity and self respect when I can resist such a weak moment and remain strong for myself and my kids. MW on the other hand has weaknesses of her own such as low self esteem and emotional eating and depression that make her ideal for the EA route and eventually the PA down the road. If you have a stressful marriage full of blame and regret then it's just a matter of time before someone cracks and takes the plunge into an EA/PA.


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## HarryDoyle (Jan 19, 2013)

In my case my wife's infidelity definitely forced us to address issues that had been buried and ignored for a long time. In the long run our marraige will be stronger, and in fact actually is now. But this really isn't anything unusual, traumatic events in life always produce something, sometimes good, sometimes bad. A DWI arrest may make someone address there alcohol abuse. After high school I was fired from my job and had trouble finding another one. I ended up joining the Air Force, something I thought I'd never do, and ended up staying for 25 years and changing my life and my family's life forever.

Of course traumatic events can have the opposite effect, it all depends on the person and the circumstances. I'm sure in a lot of cases the infidelity actually leads to divorce which may actually be the best thing in a marriage that is actually on life support. This doesn't mean that we should rely on traumatic events as the best way to lead to change. Obviously one shouldn't wait to get a DWI before addressing their alcohol issues and getting fired from your job isn't usually the best career move. And of course infidelity is definitely not the best remedy for a troubled marriage. Problems in this life can almost always be overcome in some way or the other but the road can be very hard and a lot of people turn back before the get to the end or decide not to travel down that road at all.
I'm glad my marraige is where it's at right now, but the road we took sucks.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Well ya... what other excuse is the wayward going to have after they betray their spouse.

But I have read a few cases were the marriage was healthy and the wayward sabatoges the marriage cuz they think they don't diserve good things. This comes into play when folks that got touched by daddy or Father Joe when they were kids.

But for the most part cheates cheat cuz they can and use the excuse of a crappy marriage to take the easy way out.

Normal folk just get a divorce or work on the problems.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Glass said in her book that most affairs married men have happen when the marriages are happy ones.

Believe it or not, often times there is no major problem in the marriage when the affair happens.

Affairs happen, but in my opinion the catalyst for change is the two spouses and what they do with the situation.

I am very wary of anyone even introducing infidelity along side positive change in a marriage.

I would never advocate anyone have an affair in order to trigger positive change in a marriage, which is the impression one is left with... far too often.


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## Daisy10 (Nov 10, 2013)

the guy said:


> But for the most part cheates cheat cuz they can and use the excuse of a crappy marriage to take the easy way out.


I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that. I'm sure it's true sometimes, but I don't believe that is always the case.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Daisy10 said:


> I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that. I'm sure it's true sometimes, but I don't believe that is always the case.


He said "for the most part."

And statistically yes, it is true. Men in particular cheat even when the marriage is happy and they have no complaint.

It was some 56% or something like that. 56% of married men who had affairs recognized their marriage as a happy one.

_HM: Is this compartmentalizing characteristic of people who get into affairs?

SG: It's much more characteristic of men. Most women believe that if you love your partner, you wouldn't even be interested in an affair; therefore, if someone has an affair, it means that they don't love their partner and they do love the person they had the affair with. But my research shows there are many men who do love their partners, who enjoy good sex at home, who nevertheless never turn down an opportunity for extramarital sex. In fact, 56 percent of the men I sampled who had extramarital intercourse said that their marriages were happy, versus 34 percent of the women._

So.... 56% of the men don't really have any problems in the marriage to complain about apparently...


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Your right.
Its not always the case.
Broken people in great marriages sabotage a good thing. Just like good people make bad choices. I think for the most part the easiest way out of a bad marriage is to find that bandaid...a fantasy if you will to take away the pain of an unhealthy marriage thats what happened in my case. And ya me and Mrs. the-guy addressed the marriage problems.

My experience here at TAM tells me it take all kinds. I have read so many different post...I mean the spouse was great but some one showed interest so I cheated, or my spouse is sexless so I cheated, even my spouse hits me so I cheated, how about my spouse is a great parent so I cheated...

I think at the end of the day in a world of rainbows and unicorns a wayward spouse would first address a problematic marriage before the betrayal...but then again we would have world peace now would we? 

After a catastrophic marital event like infidelity one can't help but to see what they did wrong to be so betrayed or for that matter what was so wrong that they went as far as this degree or betrayal.

Who grows up wanting to be a cheater, but when it does happen you have to look at the why...right?

But when there is other options (divorce) other then cheating one has to ask was the marriage problem an excuse to have an affair or not?

So in short affairs always make poeple adress marital problems...not sometimes...even when *in some cases* there were none.
I regress in some cases the broken spouse is the marital problem.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Now I'm confussed.
I'm going to go find a newbie and prevent him from apoligizing to his cheating wife.LOL


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

For me I'm working through my WS EA. I haven't promised anything other than I will try. But only as long as he keeps his end up. I think he earned that much (if we hadn't had many years of a great marriage I'd have just left). The time leading up to DDay was sheer Hell. We are just a few months past and it was minor and caught early. 

Yes, we were ignoring problems. It wasn't my preference but I did agree and I'm a grown up (most of the time) I don't think mutually agreeing to put some issues on hold gives a green light to step outside the marriage. Here's an idea; tell me you are ready to talk! Don't cozy up to a young willing ear! I mean really she was in grade school when we got married.**She is now 29 people** I felt the need to clarify she is younger than H but not "call the cops" young! (Sorry I am in a pretty bad mood today). It's gray and snowing!

I'm angry still. I have no intention of staying in this place. If this has not resolved to a reasonable level in 6 months (not complete healing just some reduction in anger) if I still feel things are "up in the air" so to speak. It will be summer. I will be done. I can say I've tried. And honestly I am doing my part to understand and forgive. For me betrayal is tough. I'm far from perfect but I am loyal.

When he started his MLC I started getting rid of "things" purging years worth of stuff all the objects of a life together off to auction or charity. Our home is looking staged at the moment. So ready to be put on the market at a moments notice. My closet is organized, zero clutter... Taking those steps made me feel ready for whatever comes next.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

the guy said:


> Its not always the case. *Broken people* in great marriages sabotage a good thing. Just like good people make bad choices.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> I mean really she was in grade school when we got married.


That's just creepy.



kristin2349 said:


> I'm angry still...If this has not resolved to a reasonable level in 6 months (not complete healing just some reduction in anger) if I still feel things are "up in the air" so to speak.


Anger is just pain expressed outward.

Until he earns your trust back, you will be in pain and will express anger.



kristin2349 said:


> When he started his MLC I started getting rid of "things" purging years worth of stuff all the objects of a life together off to auction or charity. Our home is looking staged at the moment.


That hardly builds trust... I don't buy the MLC argument, sorry. To me that's just sentimental crap.

People act out and they have to own it and repair it. Anytime in their lives people can decide - screw moderation and safety. Anyone can choose to get self destructive.

That's about it.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Daisy10 said:


> It seems like married people that have been complacent in their marriage, even after persistent complaints, have only two choices after an affair comes to light, to address/fix the problems in their marriage that they've been ignoring for years, or to divorce. Infidelity seems to make SOMETHING happen whereas nothing was happening before. Of course, the 3rd option, which some people try to take, is to stay married, _yet not try to improve anything_, and just remain reeling mad at the WS and continuously fire on them/blame them. I wonder how that works out?
> 
> Thoughts?


I think it depends on the people involved. Let me give a standard example, that of a marriage, otherwise fine, but one in which sex rarely if ever happens. Some divorce over this. My guess is that more simply have careful affairs that leave little evidence so that the BS doesn't really notice. Sometimes even so the BS does notice, but there is a reconciliation and you have another case fitting your third option.

Another situation is that not everyone considers an affair a death sentence for the marriage. In such cases the prime motivation might just be "fun". Most of us here would not think so, but there are enough swingers, polyamorous people, open marriage folks, etc., to make us face up to the fact that everyone is different. This might fit your option three or it might be a separate category.

In truth, fracturing marriages break for a variety of reasons. I've read here of cases where the BS was less concerned with the physical aspects of a WS's affair than the BS was concerned over the loss of trust.

Speaking only for myself, I might join that last group. The loss of trust, be it in matters sexual, financial, or whatever, might well be a deal breaker for me, whereas I wouldn't react that way to a confessed affair until I knew a lot more about the situation.

Thanks for this thread!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> He said "for the most part."
> 
> And statistically yes, it is true. Men in particular cheat even when the marriage is happy and they have no complaint.
> 
> ...


Well 56% of men and 34% of women is about 45% of people as a whole. I don't think that is anywhere near "for the most part." Not wanting to be pedantic, but this comes up in TAM a lot with some arguing that cheaters are always just defective. My view is that some are, and others fail in a moment of unusual temptation.

Tying this back to the original question of the thread. My wife's affair forced us to confront aspects of our marriage that were problems, some of which were really weaknesses in us as individuals. I think when you are in love you want to see the best in your partner, and it is horrible when you are so confronted with their dark side at its worst (as in my case).


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## Janky (Nov 26, 2013)

I think it would be fair to say that any tragedy brings forth feelings and issues for those involved.

For me, my ex-wifes infidelity brought out the worst in me and took me a year to become halfway normal again.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

Daisy10 said:


> It seems like married people that have been complacent in their marriage, even after persistent complaints, have only two choices after an affair comes to light, to address/fix the problems in their marriage that they've been ignoring for years, or to divorce. Infidelity seems to make SOMETHING happen whereas nothing was happening before. Of course, the 3rd option, which some people try to take, is to stay married, _yet not try to improve anything_, and just remain reeling mad at the WS and continuously fire on them/blame them. I wonder how that works out?
> 
> Thoughts?


Yep - my wife leaving me made me realize what a total d!ck I'd been for so long...


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

Sure affairs can bring out issues not addressed. We tend to look at this as good versus evil. It is not. The question is whether or not to stay married. In most cases the answer will be no. Even if the marriage survives the affair, it is likely to die later.

An A is the leading predictor that a M will not go the distance. It takes commitment from both the WS and BS to stand a chance. No question it can be done. Some of the best marriages are ones that overcome adversity. Each partner sees the M as a gift and appreciates the other.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> That's just creepy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree, however on the age of the POS OW (emphasis on W) is she was 29 so it wasn't as if he went total creeper. I had trouble with her being that age. He's not even 50 so it isn't all that uncommon. 

Yes I still love him so I will stand up for him on that. There is way too much back patting even on this forum when a guy scores a younger woman. Well he had an EA with one...it was wrong her age just made it so much more of a cliche.

I agree that my anger needs to be dealt with and yeah, I'm aware it comes from pain.

I think his MLC was crap also. Navel gazing self indulgent BS from a guy who hasn't had anything but rewards in life. Take his wonderful wife out of it (that was self effacing on purpose). Put our marriage aside. He doesn't have jack to complain about. Unless you buy the whining of entitled overpaid white guys justified.


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## Daisy10 (Nov 10, 2013)

What is MLC?


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Daisy10 said:


> What is MLC?


Mid Life Crisis


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## Daisy10 (Nov 10, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> Mid Life Crisis


Oh, lol. And here I was thinking it might have meant therapy.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Here's the deal....yes the affair made me look at how I took my wife for granted...but here is the kicker....it made me desire to treat her better less....I wanted to be with her less..if at all.....
So yea she got her point across but destroyed us in the process....
there were other ways to get the point across.....that would have been healthier...
I am sure we can draw positives from ANY negative experiences but it does not mean they were healthy choices.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

I have always said that having an affair as a means of communicating dissatisfaction is about as effective as sticking your hand in a blender.

Will your spouse notice? Yes

Will it do a lot of damage? Yes

Will your hand recover? Not likely

If you wouldn't justify sticking your hand in a blender as a response to a dis-satisfactory marriage, then don't tell me having an affair is any more thoughtful/effective of a choice.

People have affairs because they think they can get away with it.

I do not believe people cheat as a cry for help. They are self destructive at best, and vicious at their worst.

Might it wake a couple up? Maybe, but who cares.. the damage is done...


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> I have always said that having an affair as a means of communicating dissatisfaction is about as effective as sticking your hand in a blender.
> 
> Will your spouse notice? Yes
> 
> ...


The last thing I would do is have an affair to draw attention to marital problems. All the affair does is open your eyes to look critically at things. It doesn't fix anything, in fact it causes a whole lot more damage. 23 years since affair and the scars are still there.

I stayed for the kids. When they were gone, while we were a lot better, I could not get Mrs Wazza to deal with some issues....until I told her I was considering divorce. Not as a threat, but as a clear statement of my needs. And only after everything else had failed.

She just sees some things differently from me. It took that conversation to get her to think. Prior to that, I think she dismissed certain things as bellyaching in my part. If I had stuck with her through the affair, surely I wasn't going anywhere.......

I don't think anything of that was conscious...she is not manipulative or calculating. She is just stubborn, and it took a shock to shake her stubbornness.


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

No. Affairs kill marriage and destroy the betrayed spouse emotionally. 

They don't fix sh!t. 

If there are problems in the marriage communicate them to your partner and work on them together. If the problems continue and there is no headway being made, then just break up and divorce. 

Don't cheat. Pretty simple really.


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## Daisy10 (Nov 10, 2013)

Wazza said:


> 23 years since affair and the scars are still there.





bigtone128 said:


> Here's the deal....yes the affair made me look at how I took my wife for granted...but here is the kicker....it made me desire to treat her better less....I wanted to be with her less..if at all.....
> So yea she got her point across but destroyed us in the process....
> there were other ways to get the point across.....that would have been healthier...
> I am sure we can draw positives from ANY negative experiences but it does not mean they were healthy choices.


Wow, that's deep.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

bigtone128 said:


> Here's the deal....yes the affair made me look at how I took my wife for granted...but here is the kicker....it made me desire to treat her better less....I wanted to be with her less..if at all.....
> So yea she got her point across but destroyed us in the process....
> there were other ways to get the point across.....that would have been healthier...
> I am sure we can draw positives from ANY negative experiences but it does not mean they were healthy choices.


Hand in a blender... there you have it... :iagree:


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

the way I view it is, if a relationship is struggling, try humiliating your partner......maybe that will improve things in the long term. Sometimes that's how things work out, but not usually.


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## lisab0105 (Oct 26, 2011)

1. Cheating happens because people are greedy. Period. 2. It will NEVER fix anything. 3. Nothing will ever be the same and it sure as hell does not give a couple a healthy foundation to start over from. 5. The BS will always always always wonder WHEN their wayward will cheat again. 6. Cheating happens because people are greedy!!!!!

There isn't a problem on earth between a couple that should ever make someone want to cheat. Sure, they may address the post cheating problem, but it has only been replaced by the ****ty/man***** spouse screwing someone else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Daisy10 said:


> Infidelity seems to make SOMETHING happen whereas nothing was happening before.


If you are trying to insinuate that it is a good thing, think again.

Does it push some to do better in their marriage? Sure, it could, and in some cases I'm sure it does.

But then there is a major problem. The WS now is someone that can't ever really be trusted 100% ever again and is someone that the BS WILL envision engaging in their affair from time to time.

For me, if a gf/wife would come to me to discuss it, I could accept that things need to improve, on both sides not just mine.

But after she goes out and spreads for another man? No thanks. All I'd be doing at that point is making myself a better man for a cheating POS.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

the guy said:


> Broken people in great marriages sabotage a good thing. Just like good people make bad choices.


:iagree:

This explains my wife. She was a broken person from all her issues which had nothing to do with me or the marriage. She made a bad choice.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

marital problems are used to justify cheating...PLENTY of marriages suffer similar problems where NO ONE cheats...

I NEVER EVER attribute infidelity to marital problems...its due to poor choices...the marital problems are excuses used to justify it...phhttt...pathetic that cheaters cant just admit they cant control their crotches


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

From the perspective of the BS; if you truly want to have a new and better marriage, you better be willing to work on the marital issues; including those you can improve on.

However; it's not that easy for the BS. In my own case, I've found that some of the things I needed to do, I could do - others, that require more of an emotional/romantic investment - not so much. 

It's not that I'm not willing to; it's that I'm not able to - at least not yet. I've found that after the hysterical bonding played out, there's been an emotional ceiling that I just can't get beyond. Perhaps that will change with time, but it's been over two years.

That said, in many ways my marriage is improved over what is was before; and for now, that's good enough for me to keep going.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

badmemory said:


> From the perspective of the BS; if you truly want to have a new and better marriage, you better be willing to work on the marital issues; including those you can improve on.
> 
> However; it's not that easy for the BS. In my own case, I've found that some of the things I needed to do, I could do - others, that require more of an emotional/romantic investment - not so much.
> 
> ...


Twenty three years out, in a good place overall, but still pushing that ceiling up.

I think it is just a journey I will be on the rest of my life. And while at times I hate being on the journey, I think it's healthy. Pre affair, I just thought our feelings were enough to base a marriage on. I no longer believe that.

Don't give up. There are good times ahead.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

I’ve got that ceiling too. For me, it’s a coping mechanism. Sort of a intentional lack of investment in my spouse now. What I hope is the marriage to succeed. But my head kicks in and keeps everything at arm’s length because of these experiences with her; That sets the probable thing I should expect. 

That’s sort of the crux of the problem. I got very emotionally invested in her and the marriage before... She betrayed me so easily when I wanted to believe in her *as my wife* making assumptions that she would act in accordance with how I believed a wife should be. That was what was shattered when she showed herself to be an individual who thinks only of herself. It is now easy to believe in her as *my wayward wife*. It’s the knowing she’s just a rash decision away to once again hurting me that keeps me distant. She can do this. I can’t. So, I have the ceiling to protect me. 

If I “don’t care”, it doesn’t hurt as much. Just how I tick and part of who I am. All I can do is like Wazza.. Allow myself to care just a tiny bit more each day and push that ceiling up knowing I’m opening myself up to potential pain and humiliation again. It is not easy and is rather intentional. At times, you’ll even lower it too. It’s just one way some of us cope.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

It is possible to make too much of the ceiling.

No one is totally trustworthy. Everyone has a breaking point. Any relationship can fall into disrepair if you don't work on it. So that ceiling, for me, is the recognition of a reality that I need to be aware of, even if I don't want to. Perfect, unassailable love does not exist. My wife is a person who is in some ways amazingly caring and beautiful, and in other ways deeply flawed. The affair embodied many of her flaws in a perfect storm. The marriage is about how we can build something workable out of who we are, warts and all. This weird dichotomy that the same person can have need the source of the most amazing joy in my life, and also the single deepest pain.

For the longest time after the affair, I treated the old mariage as dead. Approached things as working on a new marriage. To the point where I didn't put the wedding ring on.

When I got past that (which was very hard emotionally) and was able to see the marriage as a continuum, it was a big step forward for me.

As one BS to another, I get what you hate about your spouse. But what do you love about them?


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

> As one BS to another, I get what you hate about your spouse. But what do you love about them?


Adds to my ceiling due to the emotional complexity of how things are. I don’t feel ‘a way’ about my wayward. I feel all emotions about her all at once and conflicting emotions. The strength of the spectrum changes, but it’s no longer a rollercoaster. More like little acceptances and observations of myself emotionally. 

Anything I might say I love, I can counterpoint emotionally. Example; I love her laugh lines when we interact. And just as quick I can haul up a image of her smiling at the OM and others to add a conflicting emotion into the mix. I strip away the personal and the ‘for me exclusiveness’ of a deep emotional bond shared between us and remind myself of the public nature. That is how the ceiling is maintained. Unbidden, unwanted, and unable to ignore that while I might love this or that about her, so do others and it's not something exclusively special between us. 

Ceiling recognized; Don’t care, it’s adorable and lovable so there’s nothing to hate about it. But immediately devalued as some deeper bond... distance is maintained and bond doesn’t grow due to it. 

That's sort of how my head works.........


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

It does but if you do not keep up with therapy even when you think you're out of the woods then I think you are destined to fail. 

We felt much closer after the last incident 8 years ago.. Everything was better, even the sex.. But we went for about 1 year and thought we were done and *"fixed"*, we weren't or at least she wasn't..

You need to go every X amount of months. 2 or 3 or 6, whatever you can afford.. You need regular maintenance for years to come. 

Hindsight being 20/20 If we would have went at least every 4 months, I think this last affair would have come out sooner or at least these feelings she was having would have been addressed and maybe the affair would have never happened. 

My simple point is at least we would have had some sort of fighting chance, maybe.. But the way my divorce went down was pretty much text book on what a cheating spouse should not do to a significant other.. 

At least we could have walked away saying we tried and that maybe in the future there might be a chance of working things out.

Today I wouldn't piss on my Ex wife teeth if they were on fire.. Not because of the affair, but for everything she did after the affair.


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## ClairesDad (Aug 27, 2013)

lisab0105 said:


> 1. Cheating happens because people are greedy. Period. 2. It will NEVER fix anything. 3. Nothing will ever be the same and it sure as hell does not give a couple a healthy foundation to start over from. 5. The BS will always always always wonder WHEN their wayward will cheat again. 6. Cheating happens because people are greedy!!!!!
> 
> Agree! Agree! Agree! My wife tried to blame her cheating on the problems we had before in our marriage. We each brought kids into this marriage and most of our issues stem from the blended family. But her sleeping with another man sure as heck didn't help our situation. We're separated now and I really can't see us reconciling. As much as I'd like to move forward with her and try to save our marriage, I will always wonder when she will stray again. I feel I deserve better.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

PBear said:


> There are some people who have said their marriage was "stronger" or "better" after an affair came to light. But I think those situations are few and far between.
> 
> C


Yeah got this from my Ws when we were talking about another couple where the wife had cheated (right before I found out about my wife) Her words "I think it can make the marriage stronger" showed me just how delusional she was.

Why do I think she was delusional? because there are better ways to "fix" a marriage then cheating especially when one person bears the brunt of the hurt and devastation. That and why not but a bullet in a gun and play Russian roulette, if you wanted to save the marriage why take such a chance, I guess really they don't care if it ends or they judged how weak you are and determined you will swallow your pride and stay.

We had some problems before her cheating but nothing critical or so I thought and upon reflection she has said the same thing but things built up and boom.
So while some areas of our marriage may be "better" her cheating has severely handicapped the trust, the pleasure (not just sexual but some times yes) and I would say at least my overall happiness which does affect her overall happiness.
10lbs of bad does not equal 100 lbs of good or just because you spread manure on your garden it does not mean everything will grow.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

It seems this may have been the case for B1 and EI. I cannot make any sense of it. The affair in my marriage was like a grenade tossed into a sidewalk café. Yeah, we try to put things back together, but WTF? Those are my kids lying on the ground bleeding.

Plus, once you have been unfaithful . . .. Well, you can't get that back. There is a saying in my line of work. Now that we know what you are, the only question is price.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> It seems this may have been the case for B1 and EI. I cannot make any sense of it. The affair in my marriage was like a grenade tossed into a sidewalk café. Yeah, we try to put things back together, but WTF? Those are my kids lying on the ground bleeding.
> 
> Plus, once you have been unfaithful . . .. Well, you can't get that back. There is a saying in my line of work. Now that we know what you are, the only question is price.


B1 and EI are an interesting example. It took the affair for B1 to deal with certain things. But to me EI seemed to have already checked out of the marriage, I had the impression she had even set a timeline for leaving and told B1. I would have to go back and reread.

She didn't have to have the affair. She could have just left.


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## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

In my case, getting caught seemed to the THE wakeup call my WH needed to get his act together.

Since DDay, I wouldn't say he's done a complete 180, but I would give him at least a 170-175.

He refused to see his addiction problems (porn, drinking, gambling, etc. etc.) before. 

He refused to see how HIS issues were the reason the marriage was barely standing. Sex frequency was always an issue, but he didn't/couldn't see that the reason sex was an issue was because he was too busy looking at porn/sexting the OWs, away from home on "business" trips. It was easier to blame me than realize that HE let his addictions take over. It was easier to blame me than realize that the time that should have been spent on intimacy between us was being spent elsewhere.

As far as I can tell, and it's been a year, there's been no porn, no OW, no gambling. He has had a few drinks at social events, but no more nights at the bar and no more buying alcohol for the house. I even shut down the social drinking, telling him that this is the typical way to slide right back in, and that I was not going to have it anymore and definitely NOT going to let our child grow up in a household with an alcoholic father. Since then, nothing. He still indulges in spending on stupid stuff, and I have put my foot down on that too. 

I realize that I was too passive before, and just stewed in silence, because he was/is very manipulative and would always turn it around on me.

He can't do that now. He has lost the upper hand, and even though I don't understand it, after ALL he has done, he is terrified of losing his family and pretty much jumps when I say so. I don't know if it's another act (if it is, it's lasted a very long time) or if it is genuine remorse and realization, but whatever it is, I am finally getting the husband I wanted. Unfortunately, it's all tainted now with mistrust, and I still don't believe his EAs never went PA, or even if not with them specifically, with someone else. 

For someone with so many addictions and poor boundaries, I find it hard to believe he would never "go there" when he had all the opportunity in the world to do so - and from everything I read, opportunity is one of the biggest factors in cheating.

In any event, it's not the affair that makes anyone realize anything - it's the getting caught that brings on the showdown.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Daisy10 said:


> Oh, lol. And here I was thinking it might have meant therapy.


:rofl: me too!


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> I have always said that having an affair as a means of communicating dissatisfaction is about as effective as sticking your hand in a blender.
> 
> Will your spouse notice? Yes
> 
> ...


And this is the trouble. I know for a fact that my WS's admission to her childhood GF's ("Girl Friends" Daisy) included this very comment. "As tough as it has been it has done some good. It has made us realise that we really do want to be together...." 

Nothing my WS has said about her A ads up. Nothing. It does not compute and defies logic. It is a smokescreen. But it is all for her. Sure she might get to protect me with her silence but it is more for her preservation. Her drinking helps her deal with this and a multitude of sh!t going on in her head.

Her drinking is a main concern for me now as the nightmare of the last 8 months recedes. I am a much clearer stronger man but I fear for 2014. Her drinking and our fragile financial situation. That is why I must, absolutely must jag a full time job ASAP. There are bills on the horizon which will knock us out of the ball park let alone the $ pressure coming up for the school holidays.

And because we have youngish children that is the priority - to keep things stable. There is no way that I could decamp right now. I know what would pan out if the kids were grown up. Really the whole deal has been dealt a massive body blow by this stupid affair.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

You should ask Remorseful Strayer the question Daisy...

For me yes problems were ignored.

We ignored the problem that I had saved a good amount of money for retirement.
We ignored the problem that the kids college funds were increasing.
We ignored the problem that I told her I loved her everyday and meant it.
We ignored the problem that we got to spend Christmas together as a family.

I don't ignore those problems any longer.

Of all the things that were not 'perfect', they could have easily been dealt with through open communication. One of us chose to cheat, now all of us including the children have to deal with that.

So you didn't have sex for 10 years, you still could have opened your mouth instead of banging her friend... I am not an 'ends justifies the means' person. Maybe things did work out but you never get that back. You gave away your own honor. It couldn't be taken away from you. That is something you have to stupidly give away.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Wazza said:


> B1 and EI are an interesting example. It took the affair for B1 to deal with certain things. But to me EI seemed to have already checked out of the marriage, I had the impression she had even set a timeline for leaving and told B1. I would have to go back and reread.
> 
> She didn't have to have the affair. She could have just left.


Yes, I had checked out of the marriage, told B1, and had a tentative timeline for ending our marriage. Of course, B1 listened to what I was saying about divorcing with as much regard as he had been listening to all the things I had been saying for years when I was desperately trying to get him to work with me to save our marriage. He wasn't listening, to me, at all. Eventually, I quit talking to him. He either didn't notice or he simply didn't care. 

I can honestly say that, at that point, I had no "in love" feelings left in my heart for B1. Still, there are simply no words, there is nothing in existence, that I know of, that can adequately describe the profound regret that I feel about choosing to betray my husband, my children and even myself.

It's such a long story and it has been told to the point of ad nauseam, on TAM. But, to simply state that I could have "just left," far over simplifies the circumstances of our life. The fact is, we have a 24 y/o special needs son who requires a full-time caregiver, and we have 3 other sons, as well. Two of our sons had very serious surgeries that year that required months and months of physical therapy, several times a week, and neither of them were able to work or drive during that time. I have been a stay at home mom for over 21 years. Our financial situation was so tight, at the time, that we were struggling to pay the mortgage (that was and remains under water) put food on the table, pay for medical expenses and medication, and put gas in our vehicles. Our home is handicapped accessible for our special needs son. Unfortunately, we will be losing our home in the coming year. The good news is that our special needs son will be moving into his own home with a round-the-clock caregiver at the end of this month. 

Hopefully, this clarifies why stating that I could have "just left," while it may have sounded like the "honorable solution," was in no way even a remotely realistic solution. The truth is, the only "honorable solution" for me would have been to continue to suffer. But, I didn't believe that I had the strength, the will or even the capacity to suffer for one more day. I had reached my breaking point. To be honest, I was spending far too much time thinking about taking an overdose or putting a bullet in my brain. But, I could not bring myself to abandon my children or to make their already challenging world even more painful by leaving that kind of legacy behind. I earnestly began to pray that I would go to sleep and never wake up. I thought it would be less painful for my children if I died of natural causes vs. taking my own life. Bear in mind that I was in therapy before, during and after my affair. I was desperately trying to find a way to survive in a very lonely, painful and, seemingly, hopeless situation. I know that it would be convenient and less painful for many BS's to write off all WS's as selfish, narcissistic, uncaring and morally deviant. But, I simply refuse to believe that that's always the case.

I didn't mean for this post to drag on for so long (I never do,) but when I saw Wazza state that I could have "just left," I had to respond. 

My affair did not save our marriage, nor did it destroy our marriage. That marriage was dead long before my affair began. The pain, the heartbreak, the devastation, the fear, the total disillusionment, and the uncertainty, in the aftermath of D-Day served as a catalyst for both of us to make changes. Life as we knew it was no longer bearable for either of us. For the first time in years, B1 and I, both, had to face the realities of the shattered remains of our marriage. We began to talk about how we would manage to live together, amicably, for the next year or so until we could possibly divorce. During my A, B1 had begun taking Testosterone injections for a T deficiency. The deficiency was something he had known about for a few years prior to my A, but he would never follow through with his doctor's appts. or the prescribed treatment. For reasons I still do not fully understand, he started treatment, on his own, during my A. The T apparently kicked in just before D-Day. It probably had a lot or everything to do with B1, all of a sudden, noticing that I existed. I was not prepared for the unimaginable pain that he was suffering after D-Day. This was, after all, the same man who had found my mere presence an extreme annoyance for the last few years. I vacillated between feeling extreme compassion and bitter resentfulness. How dare he "love me now" after virtually abandoning me emotionally and physically for years. How dare he expect to be comforted by me, when he had coldly refused me that same comfort when I had cried myself to sleep night after night before I finally reached out to another for comfort. Still, I couldn't bear to see him suffer that way. I knew what those feelings of rejection did to your soul. In searching for ways to help B1 cope, I posted our story on TAM. B1 found it the next day and posted his own thread. 

That was exactly 1 1/2 years ago. Reconciliation wasn't necessarily our goal. Survival was. As we began to comfort one another, our compassion for one another began to grow. From compassion, passion emerged (hysterical bonding,) then, communication, understanding, love and, finally, forgiveness. We could not save our old marriage, it was damaged beyond repair. I don't even think we could save our former selves. But, we have begun a completely new marriage. We both have a far greater understanding of ourselves and of one another than we ever had in the past. I don't know if our experience is unique or not, but it is our story. 

Girl met boy. They fell in love, got married and had a family. Life was far more challenging than either of them ever anticipated or were prepared to handle. They crumbled. Today they are more in love than they ever dreamed possible. True story. You don't have to like it, accept it, or even believe it. But, he and I know that it's true. Fortunately, we're the only ones whose votes count.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Thank you, EI, as always. I just hit some key that deleted a few paragraphs of thought. I'll try to recall and state some of that here and now. I guess I mentioned you because yours is the only case that came to mind where an affair was the adrenaline shot to the heart. I've said it before, I think your situation is fairly unique. \Many of us here on the receiving end of marital infidelity feel that we were also long suffering in difficult, maybe abusive relationships. Daily scream fests, constant resentment, attempts at marital compassion met with icy glares and a swat. Followed by some more screaming. Also as I have said before, I would caution against projecting much of your own experience, happy as it seems to be of late at least in your relationship with B1, onto the circumstance of others here, who may feel they were long suffering for the marriage and served the sh*t sandwich of infidelity. I am sorry to read that you will not keep your house. But you have each other and your family, and that is really everything.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Hi EI, long time no speak.

Let me ask some questions, hopefully not too difficult.

I agree "she could have just left" is simplistic. I remember the special needs child and so on, and I remember the pain when my marriage was bad. Your "wish I could just not wake up" resonates. I at one stage could not plan beyond my kids becoming adults.

But maybe you could say a bit more about this. You had a timeline. I didn't realise it was tentative, and I thought you had told B1. Am I right? And my real question......how long was that timeline? I think I recall that you would have been gone by now? Yet all the problems that stopped you "just leaving" are still there. How does that work in your head?


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Daisy10 said:


> It seems like married people that have been complacent in their marriage, even after persistent complaints, have only two choices after an affair comes to light, to address/fix the problems in their marriage that they've been ignoring for years, or to divorce. Infidelity seems to make SOMETHING happen whereas nothing was happening before. Of course, the 3rd option, which some people try to take, is to stay married, _yet not try to improve anything_, and just remain reeling mad at the WS and continuously fire on them/blame them. I wonder how that works out?
> 
> Thoughts?


Yes.

Next question


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

I often hear WS talk about how they tried to talk to the BS about marital problems, but they always forget to mention the OM/W in those conversations, and say things like "he wasn't listening" or "didn't notice"... I can tell you one thing. If you mentioned to him that you were planning on sleeping with another man, that you're not really giving the entire scope of your pain, that you're putting a spin on everything to lead you to where an affair is okay and you'll be sneaking and lying. I bet he'd have taken notice. I bet his ears would perk up, and he'd say "huh? Did you just say you have a boyfriend?" Yea, that'd get his attention.

Saying "ILYBINILWY" just confuses the hell out of your spouse, because they don't know what the hell you are talking about. Next time say "I found this guy, I want to sleep with him because I'm stressed and kind of bored with you, and he's making me feel special and it's an escape from my every day life... like a rush..." Leaving isn't an only option, true honesty is another one. Not half the story, and then 'he didn't listen'.

Yes, I'm talking about my story.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Before the affair:

Wife: The car headlight is out. (forgets to mention the brakes don't work even though she knows it but knows it will make him upset)
Husband: Ignores headlight doesn't replace it.

Wife crashes car, tells husband "I tried to tell you about the headlight being out".

Did she really give her husband enough information? Did she really try to talk to him about the situation? She did tell him there was a problem with the car, why didn't he see the urgency?

Is crashing your car into a tree a good way to fix a broken headlight? In many cases, after the repairs.. the light works again.


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## melw74 (Dec 12, 2013)

I think there is no excuse really for affairs. Why cant people tell the person who they're with that there is a problem first, and decide if they want to let the person go first. Why do they feel the need to destroy somebody's life????.

If your having problems in your marriage, talk it through and decide if its what you want, separate then start the new relationship?.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Daisy10 said:


> It seems like married people that have been complacent in their marriage, even after persistent complaints, have only two choices after an affair comes to light, to address/fix the problems in their marriage that they've been ignoring for years, or to divorce. *Infidelity seems to make SOMETHING happen whereas nothing was happening before. *Of course, the 3rd option, which some people try to take, is to stay married, _yet not try to improve anything_, and just remain reeling mad at the WS and continuously fire on them/blame them. I wonder how that works out?
> 
> Thoughts?


Still having a problem losing the stubborn 10 lbs? Cut your foot off.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

russell28 said:


> Before the affair:
> 
> Wife: The car headlight is out. (forgets to mention the brakes don't work even though she knows it but knows it will make him upset)
> Husband: Ignores headlight doesn't replace it.
> ...


I am also leary of the whole 'I told my wife/husband for YEARS that i was unhappy, neglected, ignored, and he/she did NOTHING"...I call bs...

my wife cheated...we both had issues and we both adressed and worked on them...people always exaggerate and skew the story in their favor, especially when they are in the wrong


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

To summarize, maybe in some really slim percentage of super unusual cases. In most cases there probably is not a marital problem as serious as infidelity. And it becomes pretty hard to ignore that once it comes to light.

What is marriage? A promise.

What is infidelity? Breaking the promise.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

missthelove2013 said:


> I am also leary of the whole 'I told my wife/husband for YEARS that i was unhappy, neglected, ignored, and he/she did NOTHING"...I call bs...
> 
> my wife cheated...we both had issues and we both adressed and worked on them...people always exaggerate and skew the story in their favor, especially when they are in the wrong


No, no, no, "*SOME* people exaggerate and skew the story in their favor......" Not "People *always* exaggerate and skew the story in their favor......" You are in no position to speak for "ALL" people. My husband's (B1) story is here if you'd care to read it. You can call bs all you want. Calling something bs doesn't make it so, because in my situation it isn't so. If I'm recalling your story, correctly, your wife is/was a serial cheater. That's a whole different kind of animal. Comparing all WS's to one another is like comparing apples to oranges. They might both be fruit, but that's where the similarities end. 

My decision to have an affair was wrong. But, the circumstances leading to my decision are *exactly* as B1 and I have, both, shared them, countless times, on TAM. You're free to tell your story, from your perspective, although, I would be curious to hear your wife's side of the story. But, you are in no position to state that any facts in your marriage apply to any facts in mine or in any other couples story of infidelity.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

missthelove2013 said:


> I am also leary of the whole 'I told my wife/husband for YEARS that i was unhappy, neglected, ignored, and he/she did NOTHING"...I call bs...
> 
> my wife cheated...we both had issues and we both adressed and worked on them...people always exaggerate and skew the story in their favor, especially when they are in the wrong


Well, I did tell my husband for YEARS that I thought our marriage had some problems that we needed to address, that I felt neglected, ignored, dismissed and like I was some sort of particularly aggravating and slightly incompetent nanny and maid he was always angry with except when he wanted sex. It did nothing. He was too busy with his friends and hobbies and, as I found out this year, his rather long string of other women.

So, you know what I did? I went out and found myself someone who _would_ listen. Someone who took me seriously and made me feel better about myself. Someone who supported me and helped me remember the fun, vivacious, interesting woman I used to be.

And she only charged me $2500 to handle my divorce. 

As skewed as my perspective of our marriage may or may not be, that solution worked for me. I don't think, in the vast majority of cases, that an affair does anything but destroy the marriage. Sometimes there's not much left to destroy. But if problems are to be addressed, an affair is just about the worst way possible to kick-start the process.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

EI said:


> No, no, no, "*SOME* people exaggerate and skew the story in their favor......" Not "People *always* exaggerate and skew the story in their favor......" You are in no position to speak for "ALL" people. My husband's (B1) story is here if you'd care to read it. You can call bs all you want. Calling something bs doesn't make it so, because in my situation it isn't so. If I'm recalling your story, correctly, your wife is/was a serial cheater. That's a whole different kind of animal. Comparing all WS's to one another is like comparing apples to oranges. They might both be fruit, but that's where the similarities end.
> 
> My decision to have an affair was wrong. But, the circumstances leading to my decision are *exactly* as B1 and I have, both, shared them, countless times, on TAM. You're free to tell your story, from your perspective, although, I would be curious to hear your wife's side of the story. But, you are in no position to state that any facts in your marriage apply to any facts in mine or in any other couples story of infidelity.


I think it is fair to say that EI and B1 seem to be in a better place than immediately before her affair. And that B1 takes ownership of a lot of what got them to that place. You cannot read their story and not be happy. But it is a total one off.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

missthelove2013 said:


> I am also leary of the whole 'I told my wife/husband for YEARS that i was unhappy, neglected, ignored, and he/she did NOTHING"...I call bs...
> 
> my wife cheated...we both had issues and we both adressed and worked on them...people always exaggerate and skew the story in their favor, especially when they are in the wrong


In many cases, the WS is telling you things aren't good, and they are also telling the OW/M how things aren't good... as they tell the OW/M more and more, they tell the BS less and less...

If the marriage is breaking down because one person is unhappy, but that person puts up a front, continues to pretend to be happy. Lets the world think they are happy, and on occasion might mention to the spouse that things aren't good, the spouse might get mixed signals. They might say "PMS?" or "What got her in such a pissy mood" instead of "wow, this is big, she's really having problems".. Even if they constantly tell the spouse how unhappy they are, at some point they need to get real about things like 'here are divorce papers' or 'I want to separate' etc. They choose to cheat, and that is based on lies and deceit, so the BS really has no way to fix things once that can of worms is opened. Then the deception just grows, and the lies become bigger and the BS becomes more confused and capable of making any rational decisions regarding the state of the relationship, because they are unaware of the actual state of the relationship. They have a skewed view of it. The OM/W probably has a better view.


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## Clay2013 (Oct 30, 2013)

EI said:


> No, no, no, "*SOME* people exaggerate and skew the story in their favor......" Not "People *always* exaggerate and skew the story in their favor......" You are in no position to speak for "ALL" people. My husband's (B1) story is here if you'd care to read it. You can call bs all you want. Calling something bs doesn't make it so, because in my situation it isn't so. If I'm recalling your story, correctly, your wife is/was a serial cheater. That's a whole different kind of animal. Comparing all WS's to one another is like comparing apples to oranges. They might both be fruit, but that's where the similarities end.
> 
> My decision to have an affair was wrong. But, the circumstances leading to my decision are *exactly* as B1 and I have, both, shared them, countless times, on TAM. You're free to tell your story, from your perspective, although, I would be curious to hear your wife's side of the story. But, you are in no position to state that any facts in your marriage apply to any facts in mine or in any other couples story of infidelity.


I mean no disrespect when I say these things. You are right no one here really knows what you and your husband went through. 

If your marriage was so bad you leave. If his actions or lack of actions and his behavior is destroying you inside and you are feeling like things are not working out you leave. You put a stop to it. 

Cheating on anyone is like taking a knife to them or a gun. Its an attack. If you felt you were being attacked you should have called the authorities and got him out of the house. Protected yourself and your kids. I will never agree with anyone saying well if he had not done those things I would not have cheated on him. and vise versa. No one deserves this. 

On a more personal note I am glad you are working together now and doing better for you and your family. I wish you all the success in the world. 

Clay


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> To summarize, maybe in some really slim percentage of super unusual cases. In most cases there probably is not a marital problem as serious as infidelity. And it becomes pretty hard to ignore that once it comes to light.
> 
> What is marriage? A promise.
> 
> What is infidelity? Breaking the promise.


You're so very right, HB. When B1 and I said our wedding vows we both promised to _love, honor and cherish one another, forsaking all others 'til death do us part. _ After so many years of not being loved, honored or cherished by B1, as well as being told by him to accept that that was as good as it was ever going to get, I broke my promise to forsake all others. B1 and I, both, broke our promises/vows to one another. Although, long before I betrayed my vows by failing to forsake all others, B1 had betrayed his vows by forsaking me. We vowed to forsake all others, not one another.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

EI, I think I get as well as I can what you wrote. As you have written it before. What I would like you and B1 to know is that in some cases, my own included and maybe a lot, the spouse who was trying really hard for a marriage and not understanding why there wasn't one is the one who remained faithful to the vow of forsaking all others and the spouse who could or would not be reached is the one who went outside of the marriage. I think you have a shaped, I choose my words carefully, view of my marriage or what's left of it.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

A bit off topic, but you are on my wife's facebook page. Do you think I don't notice or that she thinks I don't notice (that is the point, anyway isn't it) that all her posts read as if she is a single mom?


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Must be tough. But she could not tell you out of our 4 girls who had what for breakfast, what was packed for lunch, what the homework was, or how exactly they got to school.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Clay2013 said:


> I mean no disrespect when I say these things. You are right no one here really knows what you and your husband went through.
> 
> If your marriage was so bad you leave. If his actions or lack of actions and his behavior is destroying you inside and you are feeling like things are not working out you leave. You put a stop to it.
> 
> ...


I have explained, repeatedly, why I could not "just leave." B1's actions, or inactions, were not the type of actions that required "calling the authorities." We were struggling to afford to live under one roof together. Living under two separate roofs would have prevented us from being able to provide even the most basic of absolute necessities for our children. 

I agree that cheating on someone is like taking a knife or a gun to them. I am also acutely aware that being completely ignored, not looked at, not touched, not spoken to, for weeks and months at a time is like having someone take a knife or a gun to you. Have you ever asked your spouse to make love to you and be told to go **** yourself? Have your ever rubbed your feet next to your spouse's feet in bed just to have them hastily kicked away? Have you ever tried to put your arm around your spouse to cuddle with them at night only to have them clamp their own arm down so tight on their side that you can't put your arm around them? Have you ever moved out of the bedroom, that you've shared with your spouse for 27 years, for over a year, because the repeated rejection cut so deeply that it physically hurt, only to have your spouse never once say a single word to you about it and never once attempt to initiate intimacy with you? Because, if you haven't experienced that then you can't assume that your spouse sleeping with someone else cuts any deeper than having your spouse refuse to sleep with you. And, before anyone makes any nasty speculations, I'm not that damn hard to look at. When I had the A, it was my choice. It didn't "just happen." I wasn't pursued. I was the pursuer. But, I had turned down quite a few "advances" from others over the years. I always told B1 about them, too. His typical response was "What do you want me to do about it?" My response was, "I want you to care."

In a perfect world we would have had a happy marriage. In a little less perfect world, I could have "just left and gotten a divorce." In my world, I had a special needs child who required (and, still does) a full-time caregiver and a financial situation that did not allow us to live under separate roofs and still be able to provide for our children. You can't get any more bankrupt than bankrupt. Period. 

On a more personal note, thank you for the well wishes! And, I sincerely mean that.  I'm actually a very kind and compassionate person. But, I've had to learn to be strong. I really haven't had any other choice.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Something to somewhat keep in mind on this thread is some marriage are also so far down the toilet that adultery isn’t the same magnitude; It’s just another thing to stack on the pile of problems. It also means there is so much room to grow the relationship because it can’t get that much worse. I bet I could have started being seriously abusive and that old relationship wouldn’t have changed to anything that much worse. 

Due to this, should an R start where both are working hard on it and themselves, the positive changes are really significant differences than how it was before and it is quickly a vastly different relationship. You can definitely see a “then” and a “now” and they don’t look like the same book or even the same author.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

EI said:


> I have explained, repeatedly, why I could not "just leave." B1's actions, or inactions, were not the type of actions that required "calling the authorities." We were struggling to afford to live under one roof together. Living under two separate roofs would have prevented us from being able to provide even the most basic of absolute necessities for our children.
> 
> I agree that cheating on someone is like taking a knife or a gun to them. I am also acutely aware that being completely ignored, not looked at, not touched, not spoken to, for weeks and months at a time is like having someone take a knife or a gun to you. Have you ever asked your spouse to make love to you and be told to go **** yourself? Have your ever rubbed your feet next to your spouse's feet in bed just to have them hastily kicked away? Have you ever tried to put your arm around your spouse to cuddle with them at night only to have them clamp their own arm down so tight on their side that you can't put your arm around them? Have you ever moved out of the bedroom, that you've shared with your spouse for 27 years, for over a year, because the repeated rejection cut so deeply that it physically hurt, only to have your spouse never once say a single word to you about it and never once attempt to initiate intimacy with you? Because, if you haven't experienced that then you can't assume that your spouse sleeping with someone else cuts any deeper than having your spouse refuse to sleep with you. And, before anyone makes any nasty speculations, I'm not that damn hard to look at. When I had the A, it was my choice. It didn't "just happen." I wasn't pursued. I was the pursuer. But, I had turned down quite a few "advances" from others over the years. I always told B1 about them, too. His typical response was "What do you want me to do about it?" My response was, "I want you to care."
> 
> ...


EI, for what it is worth for you to know, as I know you are a confidant of my wife, I know what it is to receive a kick in exchange for a touch. I have for well on 10 years. Whatever you hear from her in sidebars, we have sex less than once every 6 months. Now and then she will look at me and say I want this now and we go through the motions but it is pitiful. The last times we had any regular sex were when she was try to make babies on a schedule that fit her life plan. I say this only because I don't think your case has a lot of application to that of many others here.

And really, all that I have asked in the past year is that we sleep in the same bed. Expressly without any anticipation of intimacy, just so that we can become familiar, husband and wife again. She will not even respond when I mention it. But she lusted after some random sales do*che she met at a work event and it was all good for her to run on and on about what she would do with his p*nis.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

In my case, I wanted a hug, kiss... to hear 'i love you' once in awhile, and was told that because I wanted those things, I was needy and that when people have been married for 20 years they don't need to do those things, it's all understood... when the reality was that she was telling someone else she loved them, and he was getting hugs and kisses. I got sex, and we got along well.. I had no idea why I was being pushed away, I could tell she was cold.. that was all I knew. Her 'talks' were like gibberish to me, I had no idea what she was talking about.. now I know why. When she said "MC" that one time, I said "why do we need that, we can work out our problems".. so that gave her the "I asked for MC" excuse.. she never said "or I'll sleep with X from work.." or told me that she already was... I thought things were good and couldn't figure out why she was acting so odd since we had pretty much everything she ever wanted in her life since we were young. The house, beautiful children, nice family, nice cars, nice stuff, I liked my job.. I thought I had it all. What a fool, I should have realized that there was something missing... my wives heart.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

I will repeat, in the totally rare circumstance, an affair may awaken the relationship from a coma. There is exactly one case that comes to mind. And apparently there may also have been testosterone deficiency and other emotional neglect issues there. Someone show me another case were an affair was good for any one other than the flimsy characters who got a thrill out of it.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> EI, I think I get as well as I can what you wrote. As you have written it before. What I would like you and B1 to know is that in some cases, my own included and maybe a lot, the spouse who was trying really hard for a marriage and not understanding why there wasn't one is the one who remained faithful to the vow of forsaking all others and the spouse who could or would not be reached is the one who went outside of the marriage. I think you have a shaped, I choose my words carefully, view of my marriage or what's left of it.



HB, you are one of my TAM favorites, you always have been. I have a list of about 30 or so TAMers who I have kept in, at least, sporadic contact with through pm's, emails, texts, Facebook and/or phone calls. I have prayed for, worried about, celebrated victories with, and grieved failures with many of these people. I have prayed for you and your family and have hoped upon hope, from the sidelines, that your marriage and family would be one of the few truly successful TAM reconciliation stories. While it is increasingly clear from reading your posts and AMU's Facebook that that is not currently the case, I still continue to pray for the health, happiness and well-being of you, AMU, and your 4 beautiful daughters, whether it be as husband and wife or amicably apart. 

So, with all of that having been said, please understand that when I share my story, I am fully aware that it is ONLY my story. It does not reflect on, nor do I project my experience onto that of anyone else's experience. I think that is the point that I have been trying so desperately to get across. Every marriage has it's own unique set of circumstances. No two are exactly alike. And, while, there will never be a set of circumstances that can honorably justify infidelity, the circumstances surrounding the infidelity are still relevant, particularly, when reconciliation is the desired result. Which, BTW, I didn't have an affair to get my husband's attention. My affair was not an attempt to force him to work on our marriage. I had given up. I was finished. B1 and I still have no idea how in the Hell we got through those first several months after D-Day.

No two WS's can accurately be painted with the same brush any more than any two BS's can. I get very frustrated when I'm constantly reading all of the generalizations. I'm sure that a BS who had always been faithful, and had worked hard to provide a comfortable lifestyle for their family, and had shared what they truly believed was a mutually satisfying, happy and fulfilling relationship with their spouse, had never laid a hand on their spouse in anger, and was a devoted, hands-on parent, would not appreciate being compared to another BS who had had their own string of affairs, had never worked a day, inside of the home, or out, in their life, had gambled away the mortgage money, drank away the kids' college funds, and beat the Hell out of their spouse on a regular basis. I'm using extreme examples for emphasis, but I hope I'm getting my point across.

I really don't enjoy going back and telling our story, though it may seem as though I do. It hurts both of us to recall our personal failures. It hurts both of us to be reminded of how we hurt the other. But, I truly grieve more over the pain that he has endured than I do over my own. B1 feels the same way about me. He and I both spend more time grieving over the hurt we caused the other than we do over the hurt that was caused to us. He has been my rock throughout this and I hope that I have been his. I love him more than words can say. He is my everything. I've endured a lot in this lifetime. The only thing that ever broke me was feeling unloved, unwanted, and undesired by him.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

As I said before, I suppose being cheated on could show me there might have been some problems that were ignored, on both sides.

But if someone cheats on me, she doesn't deserve my efforts to become better. She would have deserved my efforts if she would have tried to talk to me about it, or wake me up by saying she will leave. But if cheating is involved, nope.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

EI, thank you. I am not asking for your story again. I just don't think it has any application to other people here. If I may, it seems both you and B1 kind of think your affair was understandable under the circumstances. Anyone else here who feels that way about what happened in their own marriage, please raise your hand. I think my wife wants to find her way into or stay in a place where her affair is justified. I think that is inconsistent with the continuation of our marriage beyond the point where we sort out the legal and economics. Good for you, your situation. It really isn't anyone else's.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> Setting aside what it does to the marriage, look what it does to the children. Awesome. Good for you, affair people.


And, that is something that I will regret until the day I die. My God, if only I could turn back time. But, I can't. All I can do is try to be the best wife and mother that I can be going forward. It is beyond my own comprehension that I could have betrayed my family, my precious babies. It is completely beyond my own understanding. But, I did. I would have bet my own soul that I would have never done such a thing....... Right up until I chose to do just that. All I can do now is shake my head in disbelief, pick up the pieces and move forward the best way I know how.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> If I may, it seems both you and B1 kind of think your affair was understandable under the circumstances.


No, it wasn't okay, I was just broken. The circumstances contributed to my brokenness, but it was not okay. I'll never "understand" it. We have just had to learn to accept it. We love one another, so we had no other choice.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

I'll come straight out and say it. I think I was a good, loyal, compassionate, loving, and exceedingly patient husband. I think I gave more, far more, on all of these fronts than my wife who decided that she deserved an affair. Yeah. I am angry about it. And she is not sorry in any way shape or form. I believe she feels I got everything I had coming. Makes no sense to me, but that is what I think. We have four children from 12 to 4. Absent the kids, I could say, well fine, if you want this guy that is your choice and good luck with it. But we have 4 little girls. 10 to 2 when the SHTF. So what? What can you do? Try to put this crap back together.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

russell28 said:


> I often hear WS talk about how they tried to talk to the BS about marital problems, but they always forget to mention the OM/W in those conversations, and say things like "he wasn't listening" or "didn't notice"... I can tell you one thing. If you mentioned to him that you were planning on sleeping with another man, that you're not really giving the entire scope of your pain, that you're putting a spin on everything to lead you to where an affair is okay and you'll be sneaking and lying. I bet he'd have taken notice. I bet his ears would perk up, and he'd say "huh? Did you just say you have a boyfriend?" Yea, that'd get his attention.


 I talked about my pain and the problems to my partner a lot. My partner had told me that I was too needy and that I needed to get affection and support from other people. I started leaning on them more and more. At some point, my partner decided she didn't like it (she was actually aware that some of my friendships had become EAs well before I was), but she said she never told me to stop because she couldn't or wouldn't meet my basic emotional needs, yet she wanted to keep me. So while she didn't get every detail, she was pretty well informed (she could've even gone looking through my phone or email had she wanted to). And she still chose to do nothing to address any of the problems because she believed all the problems were on my side and that a lot of my wants and needs were invalid. We've always had communication problems, but she has times when she just stops sharing anything, like when she suddenly told me she couldn't stand our relationship anymore and we were separating.

I certainly did a lot wrong, too, even before the EAs.

And yes, one of us could've/should've left the other, but I guess neither of us had the emotional health to do so earlier, or even to get to a therapist, lol. 

Things are better now in R, at least, but we still have plenty to work on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Our marriage has gone from incredibly instable to tenuous in the very best of its best moments. I think about this most hours of every day. It will happen again. We are biding time.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> Our marriage has gone from incredibly instable to tenuous in the very best of its best moments. I think about this most hours of every day. It will happen again. We are biding time.


Yup. It may have brought to light marital problems that could have been addressed, but now there is a new problem in the marriage, as you are showing.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Racer said:


> Something to somewhat keep in mind on this thread is some marriage are also so far down the toilet that adultery isn’t the same magnitude; It’s just another thing to stack on the pile of problems. It also means there is so much room to grow the relationship because it can’t get that much worse. I bet I could have started being seriously abusive and that old relationship wouldn’t have changed to anything that much worse.
> 
> Due to this, should an R start where both are working hard on it and themselves, the positive changes are really significant differences than how it was before and it is quickly a vastly different relationship. You can definitely see a “then” and a “now” and they don’t look like the same book or even the same author.


Racer, you surprise me. Often. And your posts are often the most interesting. As I recall, your wife went through a series of affairs and you were pretty bitter about it, even sharing a few malevolent thoughts, but now you are more philosophical? Maybe I will get there too.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

EI said:


> No, no, no, "*SOME* people exaggerate and skew the story in their favor......" Not "People *always* exaggerate and skew the story in their favor......" You are in no position to speak for "ALL" people. My husband's (B1) story is here if you'd care to read it. You can call bs all you want. Calling something bs doesn't make it so, because in my situation it isn't so. If I'm recalling your story, correctly, your wife is/was a serial cheater. That's a whole different kind of animal. Comparing all WS's to one another is like comparing apples to oranges. They might both be fruit, but that's where the similarities end.
> 
> My decision to have an affair was wrong. But, the circumstances leading to my decision are *exactly* as B1 and I have, both, shared them, countless times, on TAM. You're free to tell your story, from your perspective, although, I would be curious to hear your wife's side of the story. But, you are in no position to state that any facts in your marriage apply to any facts in mine or in any other couples story of infidelity.


no such thing as always and never...everyone/no one
I think MOST people caught cheating skew their stories

I HAVE read B1's and EI's story....your husband and you tell the same story, so I wouldnt accuse either of skewing...but I dont think your story is the norm...all my opinions of course

edit...I do realize I used the word "always"...I think when someone does something wrong, anything not just an affair, they DO offer skewed views/perspectives...you have to have a skewed perspective on things to make the wrong choice...it might be very slight skewed

EI...when i read your story about how many years you put up with this, and how you begged and pleaded with him, I really thought it was total bs...extremely skewed, and then when B1 confirmed it I just couldnt understand how a spouse could ignore the pleading for so long...again i dont think your case is the norm...


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

People in affairs don't generally think about that.. the fact that they could be turning the BS into a murderer, they could die themselves, they are putting family at risk, even the OM/W could get hurt.. These things do happen, people snap. It's one of the risks, not just STDs. I suppose that adds to the thrill.

So hey, you could fix your marriage, or you might get someone killed....


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

Rowan said:


> Well, I did tell my husband for YEARS that I thought our marriage had some problems that we needed to address, that I felt neglected, ignored, dismissed and like I was some sort of particularly aggravating and slightly incompetent nanny and maid he was always angry with except when he wanted sex. It did nothing. He was too busy with his friends and hobbies and, as I found out this year, his rather long string of other women.
> 
> So, you know what I did? I went out and found myself someone who _would_ listen. Someone who took me seriously and made me feel better about myself. Someone who supported me and helped me remember the fun, vivacious, interesting woman I used to be.
> 
> ...


you didnt cheat
you did NOT make the wrong choice
you have nothing to be ashamed of or emberrassed about
you are much less likely to skew your story...

It makes it more believable as you have nothing you need to make excuses for


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> EI, thank you. I am not asking for your story again. I just don't think it has any application to other people here. If I may, it seems both you and B1 kind of think your affair was understandable under the circumstances. Anyone else here who feels that way about what happened in their own marriage, please raise your hand. I think my wife wants to find her way into or stay in a place where her affair is justified. I think that is inconsistent with the continuation of our marriage beyond the point where we sort out the legal and economics. Good for you, your situation. It really isn't anyone else's.





EI said:


> No, it wasn't okay, I was just broken. The circumstances contributed to my brokenness, but it was not okay. I'll never "understand" it. We have just had to learn to accept it. We love one another, so we had no other choice.


Complex issue. 

Mrs Wazza's affair was was wrong and hurt more than anything else I have ever experienced, and it was in part the product of some of her weaknesses as a human being (and in part a product if some of mine...a statement that usually doesn't go down well on TAM). 

But after long thought I understand very clearly why it happened, and if I knew then what I knew now I could have seen it coming and maybe taken steps to prevent it. If Mrs Wazza had seen it coming I am sure she would have avoided it. It was truly an outcome of an awful time in our lives, and in a sense it was understandable.

The choice to have the affair was hers. But some of the life choices that created the circumstances of the affair were joint.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

Wazza said:


> The choice to have the affair was hers. *But some of the life choices that created the circumstances of the affair *were joint.


were ANY of these choices unique to marriages where affairs happen, or where they choices/situations/issues that married couples deal with regularly WITHOUT infidelity??

Not asking you for details, I dont know if your story is here or not (but I am gonna look after I post this )


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

missthelove2013 said:


> were ANY of these choices unique to marriages where affairs happen, or where they choices/situations/issues that married couples deal with regularly WITHOUT infidelity??
> 
> Not asking you for details, I dont know if your story is here or not (but I am gonna look after I post this )


Story here in gory detail, but not in one thread.

Mrs Wazza's affair was understandable, but not inevitable. Some of the weaknesses that led to it are still there, and it is not inconceivable that an affair could happen again.

You know, I could write about the woman who had the affair, and if could write about the woman who persisted for years in a bad marriage in the aftermath of the affair, and you would struggle to understand how they could be the same person, I know I did.

Just because I am the BS in her affair, doesn't make her the only person who brought bad things into the marriage, or the only person who made bad choices.

I don't mind giving you details if you want, but I don't want to bore everyone with a thread jack.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Harken Banks said:


> Racer, you surprise me. Often. And your posts are often the most interesting. As I recall, your wife went through a series of affairs and you were pretty bitter about it, even sharing a few malevolent thoughts, but now you are more philosophical? Maybe I will get there too.


lol... You adapt to Wonderland. 



warlock07 said:


> How do you find love again after something like that ?


I say you focus deeply on yourself. I’m not ‘seeking’ love, and things aren’t really lost. It’s in there hidden behind all the other stronger emotions. 

So, this is sort of “my path” I went. It’s long...... sorry..

What I basically did was start tuning into my emotions and what triggers them. And I’m tuned into ‘the now’ instead of stuck on the past (it isn’t gone, it just isn’t dominating).

The way I was kind of was a series of programed emotional responses. You do ‘this’ than my emotional response should be “that”. I recognized this was how my wife controlled and manipulated me. Basically, when she’d hop on the crazy train, she’d escalate to a point where it was “no longer worth it” and I’d cave or compromise losing more and more of me to be this doll she thought she wanted. I also recognized that my perceptions dictated how I saw things to decide the preprogrammed response. You’ll hear me rant about dropping the “good husband” ideal and returning to just being yourself.

So I messed with my own perceptions to morph and direct my emotional response. My own intentional and directed mind duck. 

I started with “the village idiot”. My wife would rage over the littlest stuff. The old me tried ‘reason’. The new one recognized I can’t reason with a crazy person. So, I mentally pictured myself as the ‘village idiot’; What’s it like being so stupid?... It’s like always being right! . I’d dance and keep a silly grin on my face while she raged. It’s liberating. You aren’t revolting like your old programming insisted was the proper response, instead, you are laughing at how insane she is. And you start noticing these other emotions and thoughts. How far will she go? Mad scientist experiments ensued; I’d poke that badger and internally squeal in delight because she’d stubbornly stay on the escalating crazy train to looney town. I’d drive her so far over those borders that she even started seeing how utterly insane she was (how I know she isn’t BPD). This became my secret super power...

Why? Because I didn’t get mad, angry, vindictive, or want to cave in her face (though she threatened to cut me while I sleep ) Instead, it was funny to me and entertaining to drive her off the deep end. And because I wasn’t moping around, fuming, and dwelling, I had a bounce in my step and the smurf theme song repeating in my head. I was firmly in control of how I felt. That got me off of reacting to her, worrying about her, or wondering. She was insane. I was learning cool stuff about how to mess with crazy people and embracing my dark side that enjoys it rather than wanting to ‘help them’...

And I was able to start noticing those other feelings when the shouting ones weren’t so dominate. This highly passionate, emotional, and irrational person was kinda hot and attractive (my picker is warped). 

So, you take the new happier carefree attitude & her absolute inability to get me to jack squat with horrible approaches (I’d sometimes use ‘the stick’ to make sure she understood that wasn’t how she was going to get what she wanted)... and she had to adapt or literally go crazy. So, she started doing something “new”; Being nice. That started having ramifications; I was nice back. And we continue to build. 

Fights are also ‘better’ now. More often than not, it ends with both of us laughing at how irrational and insane we are. And this shared insanity bonds.

There is love in there. There is also hate. It all resides inside. I choose to encourage better emotions in me that I like. Still not completely at that Hallmark love... sparks, occasional embers, etc. But this ride is fun now in the way a grossly inappropriate joke is funny.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Racer said:


> lol... You adapt to Wonderland.
> 
> 
> I say you focus deeply on yourself. I’m not ‘seeking’ love, and things aren’t really lost. It’s in there hidden behind all the other stronger emotions.
> ...


You are a bit nuts. That is pretty much where I got to a year or so ago. I try to stay there, when I can. You really just have to take it for what it is in all of its absurdity and meet it in your most compassionate and accepting way. With humor and love. But I have to be drunk or in the first few moments after waking for it to work on a consistent basis. Fortunately, there is not a lot in between.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Harken Banks said:


> You are a bit nuts. That is pretty much where I got to a year or so ago. I try to stay there, when I can. You really just have to take it for what it is in all of its absurdity and meet it in your most compassionate and accepting way. With humor and love. But I have to be drunk or in the first few moments after waking for it to work on a consistent basis. Fortunately, there is not a lot in between.


lol... Didn't have to drink. I spent more than a few years pounding my head against that wall to create the right consistency of brain mush and scrambled neurons. 

The good news is that once they adapt to this new you. The less you have to go all in with the 'village idiot'. So even like last night we fought for the first time in months; It'd been building. Totally irrational thing that basically can be summed up as "I said no". But because I can warp my thinking, instead of getting dumped all over, I turned the worm and suggested her 'vomit' was more about frustration in general that is all pent up. And she agreed after vomiting just a skootch more trying to make some ludicrous point. 

Oh, and I don't play 'fair'... Just merely suggested that I've seen demonizing before and want to 'be sure' she wants to go down that path knowing how well it works and how much I've changed. That sort of snaps her back by tickling very unpleasant memories in her.

So we had a dandy time cooking together and raging at the unfair and cruel world.


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## verpin zal (Feb 23, 2013)

I want to become Sylar and open up & have a closer look at the brain of a wayward who thinks "divorce is not an option, so I need to go and have an affair and hope that everything will be fine".

And sometimes I want to become Mike Tyson and fly over to US when I hear a BS say anything like "I wasn't perfect either.." and smack some sense into them confused heads.

I'm quite a straightforward guy you'll find. No need for walls of text when it comes to "ignored marital problems".

Who's ignoring what, exactly? Right.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> He said "for the most part."
> 
> And statistically yes, it is true. Men in particular cheat even when the marriage is happy and they have no complaint.
> 
> ...


I've been rereading this thread. The quoted post struck me. I want to point out that the conclusion that "56% of the men don't really have any problems in the marriage to complain about ..." does not follow from the data.

I'd bet that most of those men were in marriages where they took their wives for granted. There was nothing wrong, but nothing wonderful either. So when a chance for excitement came up, then BINGO!

A marriage getting into this sort of situation is dangerous. Awareness and communication are the only antidotes and they don't always work.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

sidney2718 said:


> I've been rereading this thread. The quoted post struck me. I want to point out that the conclusion that "56% of the men don't really have any problems in the marriage to complain about ..." does not follow from the data.
> 
> I'd bet that most of those men were in marriages where they took their wives for granted. There was nothing wrong, but nothing wonderful either. So when a chance for excitement came up, then BINGO!
> 
> A marriage getting into this sort of situation is dangerous. Awareness and communication are the only antidotes and they don't always work.


I think this observation is right. Some time ago it occurred to me to say that just because you do all b*tching does not mean that you are the only one with complaints. It's just that some don't see the percentage in raking over every small disappointment or resentment. In fact, from life experience, some may have come to the view that b*tching about every little thing makes everything worse for everyone and just do not want to play that game and would if we could choose life partners with a like outlook. But then, maybe some are not happy unless they feel secure that they have made everyone in their proximity aware of how unhappy they are. Who knows?


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

russell28 said:


> Before the affair:
> 
> Wife: The car headlight is out. (forgets to mention the brakes don't work even though she knows it but knows it will make him upset)
> Husband: Ignores headlight doesn't replace it.
> ...


Or more like

Her: "Honey, there is something wrong with the car, we need to take it into the shop."

Him: "What's wrong?"

Her: "I'm not sure, but it isn't running right."

Him: "Well, when you can tell me exactly what is wrong, we'll bring it in. I'll take a look at the car tomorrow."

Tomorrow never comes.

Next month

Her: "Honey...there is something wrong with the car! It's making a funny noise."

Him: "What kind of funny noise?"

Mimics noise

Him: "Oh...that's nothing. Just the rust getting off the brakes. Let me know if you have trouble stopping."

Her: "You mean AFTER I have trouble stopping."

Him: Confused "Yeah...mechanics are expensive. I don't want to bring the car in if nothing is wrong. How will I look to the guys at the shop?"

Her: "So...you'd rather save a few bucks and your reputation than try to fix the my car."

Him: "You are trying to throw this on me!"

Her: "Well, you let me know exactly where I stand."

Him: "What?"

She never mentions the car again and he thinks everything is fine.

Three months later, he finds her in the backseat of her FIXED car with a mechanic.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

I knew something was a bit off in this analogy, now I realize what it was.
The premise of the story is, that it's the husband's responsibility, and his alone, to fix the car.
But now that there's a mechanic on the backseat, everything is seemingly okay.
The husband should be happy too, no more nagging, everyone is happy.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

I've read quite a few threads, here and there, the last few months about how affairs are justified, understandable or even seen as something contributing to marriages in postive ways - as with this thread. Since it's very human to justify the dark sides in our selves and our bad behaviours as well, I don't believe we'll ever agree on this topic.

I would like to have your input on this thought of mine, preferrably from those of you who support these viewpoints. If OP or mods find it a thread jack, just say so, and I'll remove it and start a new thread.

I know it's hythetical but, what if.... it would be possible to match those people who truly believe affairs solve problems in their marriage, issues on their partner's side or within them selves.

We could reduce a lot of the misery on the betrayed spouse side. The ones who believe in affairs as problem solving tools would _accept_ and _expect_ their partner to stray whenever a problem arise and solve it from there.

Where as those who don't believe in this magic wand could be together and know that they need to solve their problems in other ways.

I'm quite convinced that those who have been betrayed and don't (or won't) buy the premise of this thread would be happy to be with somebody with the same belief, but those of you who think that affairs has done something good for you: 

Wouldn't you be happy to know in advance that your partner shares this view and at any time they experience difficulties in the relationship or within them selves, they would contribute to a better relationship by solving the problem behind your back with the sexual help of a third party, and you would get to do the same?

Or does this mechanism only work when the two beliefs are paired in one relationship? I'm curious.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

cpacan said:


> I've read quite a few threads, here and there, the last few months about how affairs are justified, understandable or even seen as something contributing to marriages in postive ways - as with this thread. Since it's very human to justify the dark sides in our selves and our bad behaviours as well, I don't believe we'll ever agree on this topic.
> 
> I would like to have your input on this thought of mine, preferrably from those of you who support these viewpoints. If OP or mods find it a thread jack, just say so, and I'll remove it and start a new thread.
> 
> ...


Who said the affair was a problem solving tool? I didn't get that from this thread at all. Which posts are you thinking of?


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## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

cpacan said:


> I've read quite a few threads, here and there, the last few months about .....


I think it would be a good idea if you start a thread about it. this way you'll have the control of thread. you can choose to close it or not close it whenever you want. I say this because this happened to previous thread with similar topics.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

user_zero said:


> I think it would be a good idea if you start a thread about it. this way you'll have the control of thread. you can choose to close it or not close it whenever you want. I say this because this happened to previous thread with similar topics.


I took your advice and deleted my followup answer to Wazza.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

cpacan said:


> I took your advice and deleted my followup answer to Wazza.


Huh? Did I say something wrong?


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Huh? Did I say something wrong?


No, I just sensed that my reply to your post would take the thread off topic. So I fold and bow out - I have a dating site to code


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

cpacan said:


> No, I just sensed that my reply to your post would take the thread off topic. So I fold and bow out - I have a dating site to code


PM me the reply? Curious...


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

cpacan said:


> I knew something was a bit off in this analogy, now I realize what it was.
> The premise of the story is, that it's the husband's responsibility, and his alone, to fix the car.
> But now that there's a mechanic on the backseat, everything is seemingly okay.
> The husband should be happy too, no more nagging, everyone is happy.


The wife knows there is no light, she's just not sure why... she's not even aware it's a headlight that makes the light, she just knows things are dark and she's not able to see at night like she used to. So when she tells the hubby things are dark at night, he just says "yea, no kidding, that's how it works, night is dark" and she says "what a jerk, I'm going to have an affair, that'll teach him".


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

russell28 said:


> The wife knows there is no light, she's just not sure why... she's not even aware it's a headlight that makes the light, she just knows things are dark and she's not able to see at night like she used to. So when she tells the hubby things are dark at night, he just says "yea, no kidding, that's how it works, night is dark" and she says "what a jerk, I'm going to have an affair, that'll teach him".


YOu would hope that the police would have stopped her first. I'm sure that that's fixed penalty (read money making) violation to help with their monthly quotas.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> YOu would hope that the police would have stopped her first. I'm sure that that's fixed penalty (read money making) violation to help with their monthly quotas.


They are texting or busy eating donuts every time she drives by them in this scenario... or they pull her over, she explains that her husband is uncaring and insensitive and she's bored with him, she gives them sexual pleasure, they tell her she looks nice, and it's all good.


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## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

EI said:


> I would be curious to hear your wife's side of the story.


What makes you curious about that? When missthelove2013 writes: we both had issues and we both addressed and worked on them

are you curious if that's not, in fact, the case?


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Maybe this turf has been covered, but there seems to be an assumption in Daisy's initial post that the person who had the affair (i) was not getting their needs met, (ii) was trying to communicate and be heard but the conventional stuff wasn't working, (iii) feels that they have reached the end, and (iv) has the attitude of I am doing this for me. I would agree with (iv) in every case. As for the rest, it only fits one case I am aware of.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

1812overture said:


> What makes you curious about that? When missthelove2013 writes: we both had issues and we both addressed and worked on them
> 
> are you curious if that's not, in fact, the case?



No, not at all. But, there are a few "couples" on TAM where, both, the BS and the WS are sharing their story at the same time. Some, on the same thread and others on separate threads. I may be drawn to those stories because my husband and I are one of those couples. It is something that I have, personally, gained a lot of insight from. I am interested (or curious) to see how two individuals may or may not have a different perspective on the same situation. It wasn't intended as a derogatory statement.

I came to TAM to seeking insight. I'm still working on it. If, along the way, I have an opportunity to share something that might help someone else, I try to do that, as well.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I have come to accept that when someone says "there are two sides to every story" that they are effectively saying that they don't believe your side. 

What does one do? My fiancé will never admit that he was hoping to have a second chance with his EA while dating me; at the same time, he has done everything possible to reassure me including excising this woman from his life and stepping up his commitment to me.

So if I ever saw a text to someone else, what might it say, "my fiancée is psycho, but I've decided to stay with her." hookay ....... Would that put him in a good light?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> I have come to accept that when someone says "there are two sides to every story" that they are effectively saying that they don't believe your side.
> 
> What does one do? My fiancé will never admit that he was hoping to have a second chance with his EA while dating me; at the same time, he has done everything possible to reassure me including excising this woman from his life and stepping up his commitment to me.
> 
> So if I ever saw a text to someone else, what might it say, "my fiancée is psycho, but I've decided to stay with her." hookay ....... Would that put him in a good light?


Don't believe? Or see that there might be more to the story?


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## Aerith (May 17, 2013)

Daisy10 said:


> Just based on my observations, it seems like majority of people stay married though, so I'm wondering what they do....


From your observations - could you tell who cheated more in those couples who stayed together - husbands or wives?

My observation is wives are much more forgiving and husbands just tend to divorce...with or without TAM support...


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## lacey99 (Oct 18, 2013)

"I am also leary of the whole 'I told my wife/husband for YEARS that i was unhappy, neglected, ignored, and he/she did NOTHING"...I call bs..."

that's the excuse my WH used-such BS


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

lacey99 said:


> "I am also leary of the whole 'I told my wife/husband for YEARS that i was unhappy, neglected, ignored, and he/she did NOTHING"...I call bs..."
> 
> that's the excuse my WH used-such BS


The way you put the emphasis on the words "YEARS" and "NOTHING" suggests that you don't believe that the WS actually did tell their spouse for years that they were unhappy, neglected, and ignored, and that the BS did nothing about it (because, surely, no BS would EVER be guilty of ignoring their spouse, when the spouse, who felt neglected, voiced their feelings about it, right???) And, since that was the excuse that your WH used (and, you're obviously not buying it,) then it couldn't possibly be true in any other couple's marriage, either??? Am I correct in assuming that's what you're saying? If this is true in your marriage, then it must be true for all marriages??? 

I have to call BS on that. Every marriage is not the same, every WS is not the same and every BS is not the same. Because I DID tell my husband for YEARS that I was unhappy, neglected, ignored, and he did NOTHING. To call that BS is just........ well, it's BS.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

EI,

I am not disagreeing with you saying you didn't tell your husband and I am not going to bother with the ALL and EVERY and 92.3% nonsense.

After my DDay, I got the 'I told you we had a messed up marriage'...

That is true... In 15 years, my EX told me twice we had a messed up marriage, the first time was after she had her first affair. I asked her point blank if she cheated and she said no. She totally Bill CLintoned that 'It depends on what the meaning of cheating is' 

The second time 6-7 years later, she told me when she was pretty drunk on New Years Eve. She was upset because we were arguing about her being drunk...

So yes, she 'told' me, but I never suspected her of being capable of having an affair, well mainly I guess because I Never would so I thought she never would either. We seemed to have such similar morals... pffftttt

Yes overgeneralization is bad but I think most people got the version of the 'I told you something was wrong' that I got...

So when my EX said something was wrong she meant...

I work to much to support the family so she could stay home with the kids because that is what she said she wanted to do.
I travel 1-2 nights a week because that is the type of job I have.
Wife was an attention needing magnet and she sought it out from any where.
The vows we said meant nothing... 'My word means a lot to me.'
She's bored and wants to have fun now that the kids are in school... (I got it, get a damn job!)

I never said I was perfect. I never was nor I will be but neither was she. She chose to cheat. Things could have been worked out but when she wanted to start feeling that loving feeling with another man, once she headed down that path, it was just a ticking timebomb. At least she took out most of the family with that explosion.

I think the real question is... If you really were unhappy, did you really do everything you could to make your spouse understand your pain or did you just take the easy way out and seek your own escape? That escape cost the rest of the family dearly. Was it worth it?


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

MovingAhead said:


> EI,
> 
> I think the real question is... If you really were unhappy, did you really do everything you could to make your spouse understand your pain (YES, I DID) or did you just take the easy way out and seek your own escape? That escape cost the rest of the family dearly. Was it worth it? (NO, IT WASN'T.)


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Wazza said:


> Don't believe? Or see that there might be more to the story?



either or.....


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Does doing 'everything' you can, to make your spouse understand your pain include telling him that there is another man?

Who hears more about your pain, your husband, or the OM? Who has the more clear picture?

I understand all cases are different, in my case I've never neglected my wife as far as words, sex, affection, attention.. I tried, and was pushed away because there was another man in her ear. My issues were the typical ones that a BS hears about, I was jealous (because she thought it was okay to get back rubs from guys she works with and would wear clothes that show a bit too much flesh to work, like butt crack if she squats down... her argument that her small size forces her to shop in the 16 year olds section.. ya, all me..) I had control issues (wanted to know why she'd go shopping for four hours and come home with no bags).. I never took her places (only two or three vacations a year, disney, universal, dinner once a week).. I neglected her needs (I would drive by a motel and tell her we should get a room for the day... tell her how if I had a choice between a super model and her, I'd choose her.. always how pretty she looked, nice she smelled... never once in my life refused sex, wait for her to orgasm if it takes hours... surprise gifts, flowers, wash her car, clean the house before she gets home so she can relax)

So when I got the ILYBINILWY, it really was confusing.. I wasn't getting the same full story that the OM was as far as her unhappiness, I was getting a front. A fraud.. The OM is a key piece of information that if left out, leaves the BS unaware of the real situation and unable to put an end to it. Do you think if I really knew what was going on my wife would have had an affair for such a long time? Hell no, I would have ended it one way or another. She knew that, and didn't want me to end it. She wanted to keep making excuses to justify it, that's how affairs work. So while one may have tried before the affair to work on the M, once the affair starts.. all that effort gets sucked out of the marriage and channeled into the affair.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

russell28 said:


> Does doing 'everything' you can, to make your spouse understand your pain include telling him that there is another man?
> 
> Who hears more about your pain, your husband, or the OM? Who has the more clear picture?
> 
> ...


You are too nice and too good for her. Not dangerous enough. Excitement in an affair was too hard to resist. The only end you should have been working towards is her end. She doesn't/didn't deserve you russ.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

"Do affairs sometimes make people address marital problems that they've been ignoring?"

It has taken a while, but WH is beginning to accept personality traits (like conflict avoidance) that he has denied during our entire M. He's trying to talk more...even though to him it means telling me details about his job, when what I really want to hear is what is going on inside of his head and heart. Having his A exposed, has aided in proving he isn't as impeccable as he lead me to believe. He is actually relieved to not have to pretend to be Mr. Morality anymore. He's becoming less defensive and more humble in general.

So in answer to your Q, in our case the answer is "Yes."


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