# What would you call a woman who....



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

.....had these type of traits?

1]Task focused. Single minded.
2]Determined, bold, and a competitive high achiever.
3]Winning is part of her identity.
4]Higher sexual libido.
5]Emotionally self sufficient.
6]More aggressive. Actively pursues power and status.
A risk taker.
7]Enjoys recognition but doesn’t need approval from peers.
8]Gets straight to the point without social chat.
9]Closer relationship to father than mother.
10]Fiercely independent – not looking for a man to take care of her, she takes care of herself.
11]She leads and expects everyone to follow.
12]She doesn’t care what people think of her.
13]Gives her opinions – doesn’t wait to be asked.
14]Intelligent, well informed, resourceful.
15]Not afraid of the unknown,fights for what is hers.
16]Honor, integrity, and loyalty.
17]Fiercely protective of herself, her family and everyone she loves.
18]Nature created her to lead her family and community.
19]She is selective about who she invites into her private life.
20]She is well prepared for her own survival and for those she loves.
21]She won’t allow others take advantage of her or those she loves
22]The leader in the workplace and in her community.
23]She’s easy-going and doesn’t throw tantrums, whine, b!tch or nag
24]She can hold her own in the boardroom, bedroom, or on the street. She commands respect.
25]Solitude nourishes her.

Some say she is the " Alpha Female" the female counterpart to the Alpha male.
Until recently, the concept of alpha female barely existed. Strange, considering that this remarkable woman is as old as the alpha male himself. But that is because in the past girls who exhibited those tendencies were often coerced into acting " normal & ladylike " in my opinion.

So my question to the ladies is,
Does she exist?
Do you admire women with these type of traits?
Which of these traits do you recognize in yourself?

And to the men.
Do you know any women with these traits?
Are you attracted to them?
If so why , and if no why?


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Of course she exists. 
Yes I do.
I do recognize a bit of those traits in myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## underwater2010 (Jun 27, 2012)

I know lots of women like this....but most do not know how to be a true woman and compliment these traits. It is wonderful to be alpha, but we should always be willing to let a man be a hero in a relationship.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

A keeper.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

richie33 said:


> A keeper.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Most definitely!:smthumbup:


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Gaia said:


> Of course she exists.
> Yes I do.
> *I do recognize a bit of those traits in myself.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Which ones do you recognize in yourself Gaia?


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

IMO, a turnoff.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I used to be like this and it didn't bode well for my marriage. Oh sure some traits are awesome like higher drive, honor, integrity but others not so much. Winning, competitive, emotionally independent, doesn't need a man, aggressive, single minded,, etc. are turnoffs in my opinion.

Those traits stopped me from claiming my feminine side. I can be strong yet intensely vulnerable. I can be need my husband and yet still be able to take care of myself if need be. You get the idea.

It's a balancing act and it's not always easy but the payoffs are worth it.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> .....had these type of traits?
> 
> 1]Task focused. Single minded.
> 2]Determined, bold, and a competitive high achiever.
> ...


"Does she exist?" yes - Hillary Clinton comes to mind.

"Do you admire women with these type of traits?" yes

"Which of these traits do you recognize in yourself?" 1,2,5,7,9,10,13,14,15,16,17,19,20,21,23 & 25


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Emerald said:


> "Does she exist?" yes - Hillary Clinton comes to mind.


And yet the alpha in her couldn't stop her husband from cheating, and she didn't divorce him. The alpha female isn't supposed to stay with the cheating spouse is she? Isn't that advocated on this forum, be alpha and don't get cheated on?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> .....had these type of traits?
> 
> 1]Task focused. Single minded.
> 2]Determined, bold, and a competitive high achiever.
> ...


Does she exist? Yes
Do I admire them? Meh. Tbh, the ones I have met in person who have had all of those traits have come off as b!tchy and aloof.... more b!tchy, though. IMO, that isn't an admirable trait at all.
Do I have any of these traits? Yes. 7, 9, 14 (depending on subject), 15, 16, 17, 18, and 21.


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## heavensangel (Feb 12, 2012)

Yes 
depends - some can come off kind of arrogant; don't like arrogance in anyone
1-3 & 8-25


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## Chelle D (Nov 30, 2011)

I'd call her SuperWoman.

Yes, she exists... probably in the dreams of a man with a weak wife.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

4,5,7,8,10,14,15,16,19,20,21,23,24,25

I admire some of those traits but not necessarily all, there's a time and place to be a ball breaker
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Dollystanford said:


> there's a time and place to be a ball breaker


Was just going to say the same thing. My own husband admires the fact that I'm capable of being a ball buster. He just prefers me NOT to do it to him or at all really unless it's necessary.


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## Cee Paul (Apr 11, 2012)

I'm married to a woman who is a lot of things on that list but most of it is career oriented, and one of our biggest problems is that her career has taken off considerably the past 3-4 years and is causing major problems in our marriage. Many times I wish that I could just have that simple girl back making a decent salary who's not overwhelmed by her job, but apparently she has moved out and I am left with someone who is obssessed with money and her job leaves no time for fun.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

1. Yes
2. Im definately determined and bold but only competitive sometimes... It depends on the situation.
3. Again it depends....
4. Definately
5. Sometimes
6. Yes, not really, and yes.
7. Yes
8. Sometimes
9. Definate yep
10. I used to be that way... right now.... Not so much I dont think.
11. I admit I am guilty of that sometimes.
12. Partially true. I do care what my spouse thinks about me as well as my children.
13. Guilty of this to but I do try to be respectful.
14. I would like to think I am sometimes..... Lol
15. Yes and it gets me in trouble sometimes.
16. I believe so. 
17. Yes
18. Thinking on this one.... For me... Maybe sometimes with family... Community... Dunno... Probably not....
19. Probably ...... Half and half now.... 
20. Prepared... Yes... Well prepared... Not really.
21. For the most part yes.... Sometimes though i fail at that and it bugs me to no end.
22. As of now... Yes and no.
23. Hmm.... Im gonna have to go with sometimes... At least in my pov anyway lol
24. I dont have a boardroom, yes, yes, .... Unsure about this for the time being... I dont want to say command.. More like...eh I dunno am to tired to think clearly.
25. Yes... And no.



And just have to say.... 

Damn you have a long fricken list!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrsOldNews (Feb 22, 2012)

1]Task focused. 
2]Determined, bold, and a competitive high achiever.

4]Higher sexual libido.
5]Emotionally self sufficient.
6]More aggressive. Actively pursues power and status.

7]Enjoys recognition but doesn’t need approval from peers.
8]Gets straight to the point without social chat.
9]Closer relationship to father than mother.
10]Fiercely independent – not looking for a man to take care of her, she takes care of herself.


14]Intelligent, well informed, resourceful.
15]Not afraid of the unknown,fights for what is hers.
16]Honor, integrity, and loyalty.
17]Fiercely protective of herself, her family and everyone she loves.
18]Nature created her to lead her family and community.
19]She is selective about who she invites into her private life.
20]She is well prepared for her own survival and for those she loves.
21]She won’t allow others take advantage of her or those she loves
22]The leader in the workplace and in her community.(only the workplace for me)
23]She’s easy-going and doesn’t throw tantrums, whine, b!tch or nag
24]She can hold her own in the boardroom, bedroom, or on the street. She commands respect.
25]Solitude nourishes her.

I deleted the ones that don't apply to me. I consider myself an alpha female. Have been since I was quite small actually. Im not the submissive type at all. I've never needed a man to survive and I don't think a man should run any relationship. I believe in equality! 

I think more men are interested in alpha females than they would like to admit. Let's just say I've NEVER been short of potential suitors.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> .....had these type of traits?
> 
> 1]Task focused. Single minded.
> 2]Determined, bold, and a competitive high achiever.
> ...


Primitive, and I mean that in the best sense.
Like a woman in her natural state, unrefined by the molding of society over the years.
I'd also say she was very well equipped for survival in the world.
Madeline Albright type.
Nothing wrong with that.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

MrsOldNews said:


> 1]
> I deleted the ones that don't apply to me. I consider myself an alpha female. Have been since I was quite small actually. Im not the submissive type at all. I've never needed a man to survive and I don't think a man should run any relationship. I believe in equality!
> 
> I think more men are interested in alpha females than they would like to admit. Let's just say I've NEVER been short of potential suitors.


I can't speak for other men but most of the alpha traits would hardly make a difference in how attractive a woman is to a man. We're simple creatures and when we see females we see t!ts ass face. The other things don't even figure in our( my) limited and fuzzy brain.

In a long term relationship, a woman who values herself and is funny, passionate, affectionate, honest and kindhearted, now those are traits that would make a man want to have a relationship with the woman.

The rest of the traits wouldn't make a difference. It doesn't matter if the woman is the CEO of a company or if she's a homemaker.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I'd call her a woman. wtf.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

But these "alpha"women do exist and often don't really want a relationship. Even if they do, its only to keep up appearances. I've "known" 3 such married women, 2 of whom, were in pretty good jobs. Mind you this was in the late 70's-early eighties, and they were making quite a bit of headway in their careers, very ambitious but also narcissistic to the extreme. I wasn't complaining at that time though.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> Which of these traits do you recognize in yourself?




1]*Task focused. Single minded.* I can be demanding, slave driver If I want to joke about it. 

2]*Determined, bold, and a competitive high achiever*. Competitive High Achiever, not so much -don't care about status....determined/ Bold to what I am after...very much so.

3]*Winning is part of her identity*. Depends on what the prize is, how bad I want something. Do I feel I need to always win... NO.

4]*Higher sexual libido*. Understatement. High energy as well.

5]*Emotionally self sufficient*. I feel I am emotionally sound.. though I LOVE to be with my husband so some may deem me clingy, it's not that I need to be ~ I want to be, but stable minded on my own as well. 

6]*More aggressive. Actively pursues power and status.
A risk taker. * This one I fail at, I do NOT like RISK....in this way I am more of a Perfectionist, won't attempt unless I know the odds are in my favor, cause I would be too upset if I had my hopes set too high & failed - I could care less about Power & status outside my home. But Aggressive in seeking Justice or some wrong made right... always. I am not afraid to confront.

7]*Enjoys recognition but doesn’t need approval from peers*. Always nice to be praised, but is it always "real" from others? It's not the end all -if we feel we have done a good thing...followed our conscience. Our convictions are more important at the end of the day, even if we stand alone. 

8]*Gets straight to the point without social chat. *I don't care to talk about the weather so much... I enjoy social chat ~ if it's interesting - I do like to get to the heart of the matter (sometimes)....I may re-direct a conversation -as tactfully as I can if I am bored.. 

9]*Closer relationship to father than mother*. Father raised me, but we weren't close -though I am so much like him, his beliefs, ways.

10]*Fiercely independent – not looking for a man to take care of her, she takes care of herself.* Depending on what one means here -I fail miserably or so/so/ I wouldn't want to be single & alone... I love being married & a Mother, but I consider myself a an excellent Helpmate and a contributing "Interdependent" spouse. 

11]*She leads and expects everyone to follow. *My kids maybe, not my friends, or those outside my family. More like she Listens, offers insight, asks questions, we talk about the issues & understand each other...and more times than not, an impact is made. 

12]*She doesn’t care what people think of her. * I do not carry the "I don't give a Sh** attitude" my husband does.... I can be hurt when people put me down/ judge... but I also don't feel that is a flaw, I wouldn't want to be untouchable... I listen to my critics & consider what they say... then evaluate... either picking myself up off the floor, or admitting they have a point. 


13]*Gives her opinions – doesn’t wait to be asked. *Depends, this can be the heights of Rudeness, which isn't very ladylike. I try to listen 1st - especially with those outside my family bubble. If something is stirred in me to speak, I will. I'm not one to sit idly by , not opening my mouth if I am upset or feel I have something to offer to a conversation. Even if it is going completely against the grain. 

14]*Intelligent, well informed, resourceful. *I try to be or I remain more of a listener, so someday I can speak about such a topic & have some impact. 

15]*Not afraid of the unknown,fights for what is hers*. Not crazy about Unknowns... but to fight for what I feel is MINE... relentlessly. 

16]*Honor, integrity, and loyalty * - I highly praise these when I recognize it in others, so I surely strive to be all 3 in myself. If/when I mess up, I strive to let no grass grow under my feet to correct my blunder. 

17]*Fiercely protective of herself, her family and everyone she loves. * Like a Mama Bear. Always for the Underdog if I feel someone is getting mistreated unfairly. I don't mind being an advocate for someone who needs help . 

18]*Nature created her to lead her family and community*. I should get more involved with the Community... the one time I did....to fight a Prison planned for our little town...I ate, slept & drank that cause, and we won. It was exhilerating. 

19]*She is selective about who she invites into her private life.* Outside of being pretty "open" on public forums about taboo subjects, yes, one could say this ... I try to be very selective to who comes to our home, once about took a GF's head off cause she brought some guy whose been in & out of jail to our house. 

20]*She is well prepared for her own survival and for those she loves*. Being very conservative minded, always have $$ for rainy days, reserves if the worst happened to get us by. 

21]*She won’t allow others take advantage of her or those she loves. * I can feel something rising within when I feel another is trying to take advantage... whether it be ME or my kids...for instance...I will open the subject up somehow. I refuse to allow a resentment to take hold.. ..communication & some boundaries are essential -depending on who we are dealing with -especially if theirs are irresponsible . 

22]*The leader in the workplace and in her community.* Really doesn't apply to me. 

23]*She’s easy-going and doesn’t throw tantrums, whine, b!tch or nag.* Husband is so up on things, I never need to nag...(this helps).....I've been known to Bi*ch when I get angry - I have my moments! 

24]*She can hold her own in the boardroom, bedroom, or on the street. She commands respect. * Especially in the Bedroom  ~ and give me a good debate ... My joys ! Boardroom doesn't apply. I be who I am, respect comes. I don't command Respect, this is earned. 

25]*Solitude nourishes her.* Everyone needs some quiet time to reflect, gather some new energy & inspiration, me included.


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## Viseral (Feb 25, 2011)

"What would you call a woman who had all these traits?"

A feminists wet dream.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Corrected: Well, I think that I have all those traits except "25]Solitude nourishes her."

I've been told by many men that I'm really good looking but they would never be in a relationship with me because of that. My reply is that it's ok.. I'm just looking for on man who can deal with a woman like me. Don't need all men to want to be with me.

I've had people tell me I'm just like a man.. because when there is a crisis I just get to work on it, organize everyone and get the issues solved.

But I'm also very nurturing and loving. Ask my kids.. ask my ex-husband.

In a relationship I do modulate it some so as to let the guy have whatever more traditional role it wants. But I cannot totally turn this off.. I've been like this since I was a child. It's just me.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

Yes, There are women who have a lot of these traits. I see some of them at my workplace. However, I admire a woman who has many (not all) of the traits on your list and is still nurturing, loving, funny, soft and feminine when the situation calls for it. 

I have the following.. I deleted those that didn't apply to me. I would NOT want to have ALL the traits in the list. That would not make me happy or my husband happy.

2]Determined, bold, and a competitive high achiever.
4]Higher sexual libido.
5]Emotionally self sufficient.
7]Enjoys recognition but doesn’t need approval from peers.
8]Gets straight to the point without social chat.
9]Closer relationship to father than mother.
10]Fiercely independent – not looking for a man to take care of her, she takes care of herself.
12]She doesn’t care what people think of her.
13]Gives her opinions – doesn’t wait to be asked.
14]Intelligent, well informed, resourceful.
15]Not afraid of the unknown,fights for what is hers.
16]Honor, integrity, and loyalty.
17]Fiercely protective of herself, her family and everyone she loves.
19]She is selective about who she invites into her private life.
20]She is well prepared for her own survival and for those she loves.
21]She won’t allow others take advantage of her or those she loves
23]She’s easy-going and doesn’t throw tantrums, whine, b!tch or nag
24]She can hold her own in the boardroom, bedroom, or on the street. She commands respect.
25]Solitude nourishes her.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Coffee Amore said:


> Yes, There are women who have a lot of these traits. I see some of them at my workplace. However, I admire a woman who has many (not all) of the traits on your list and is still nurturing, loving, funny, soft and feminine when the situation calls for it.
> 
> I have the following.. I deleted those that didn't apply to me. I would NOT want to have ALL the traits in the list. That would not make me happy or my husband happy.
> 
> ...


The OP did not say that these 25 were the only traits the woman has... there's room for the others you list. It's a balancing act.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

He didn't list in his example those other qualities I mentioned. He was asking us to decide on the list he gave and that list didn't include the some of the traits I admire in women. Perhaps the OP can clarify what he meant. I didn't want to assume anything.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> *What would you call a woman who....
> .....had these type of traits?*
> 
> 1]Task focused. Single minded.
> ...


Lots of fun?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Single


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

1, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 20, 21, 25

I identify with the above.


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## Chelle D (Nov 30, 2011)

Admire a woman like that?? Respect her yes, but admire (like want to be like her?) No.

The traits I see in myself: 16, 17, 19 & 25. 
I used to think #14 as well, but quickly realizing how little I know of things.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> Right, _there isn't anything on the list that I see that limits additional qualities like being nurturing etc and it's not like being strong doesn't mean you can't hug your kids and make dinner._
> 
> Balancing act is right! I'm just happier and my family is happier when I'M acting as HBIC alongside my husband, not a step below.



I think that would fall under:-

17]Fiercely protective of herself, her family and everyone she loves.

I protected my son, for example, from ill-health and poverty by making sure he was loved, well-nourished and well-educated.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> Right, there isn't anything on the list that I see that limits additional qualities like being nurturing etc and it's not like being strong doesn't mean you can't hug your kids and make dinner.
> 
> Balancing act is right! I'm just happier and my family is happier when I'M acting as HBIC alongside my husband, not a step below.


Yep people see that list and automatically assume it means that pushy, hard woman. We can see it here in the comments like "single".

A woman can be all those things and loving, nurturing, have a good sense of humor, be a lot of fun and so forth. And make dinner for hubby and kids and keep a clean house


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

When you have done all of those things, you will agree with me. You will not be satisfied with whoever you are with. You will always want more. 

There is nothing wrong with that but, you will both need to change more and more for the rest of your lives. Eventually, you will get tired and just live on your own. You will have everything you desire. You will have gotten it on your own. Why do you need a man around all the time? For what? Men will feel the same. 

Sorry for the one word answer.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> Right, there isn't anything on the list that I see that limits additional qualities like being nurturing etc and it's not like being strong doesn't mean you can't hug your kids and make dinner.
> 
> Balancing act is right! I'm just happier and my family is happier when I'M acting as HBIC alongside my husband, not a step below.


FrenchFry,
I must say I like your answer!
I like all the other responses but your answer leads me to another question I have in the back of my mind.

What type of traits would a woman with most of these traits look for in a man she wants to be her mate / husband?

In other words, what type of man would be the ideal man for her?

NB; _This question is not only directed to FrenchFry, but anyone could answer!_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Yep people see that list and automatically assume it means that pushy, hard woman. We can see it here in the comments like "single".
> 
> A woman can be all those things and loving, nurturing, have a good sense of humor, be a lot of fun and so forth. And make dinner for hubby and kids and keep a clean house


Yes, they CAN be loving, nurturing, etc. Unfortunately, the ones most of us have come in contact with, who have had ALL of those traits, have been pushy b!tches in all aspects of their lives. Sad, but true. Does it describe all of them? Of course not. But the ones it DOES describe, unfortunately, ruin it for the majority of those who are loving and nurturing in addition to those other traits.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> When you have done all of those things, you will agree with me. You will not be satisfied with whoever you are with. You will always want more.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with that but, you will both need to change more and more for the rest of your lives. Eventually, you will get tired and just live on your own. You will have everything you desire. You will have gotten it on your own. Why do you need a man around all the time? For what? Men will feel the same.
> 
> Sorry for the one word answer.


So alpha men get to the point that they don't want a woman around?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Coffee Amore said:


> He didn't list in his example those other qualities I mentioned. He was asking us to decide on the list he gave and that list didn't include the some of the traits I admire in women. Perhaps the OP can clarify what he meant. I didn't want to assume anything.


I left out those " qualities" for a specific reason
Those qualities are generally attributed to women. Women are expected to be like that.
The assumption is that this list represent _additional_ qualities that makes her a cut above the rest.
_Alpha Female._


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I identify with most of these traits, but will say that they change with time. Ambition changes, and a greater sense of compassion and understanding develops, so that the drive becomes more outwardly, selflessly focused.

For my generation, it was essentially a guarantee that this sort of woman would not find a good man to marry. I was lucky in that I fell in love with someone who not only wasn't intimidated by me, but preferred someone with intellect and a bit of moxy. And boy, did I ever love him for that..


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Yes, they CAN be loving, nurturing, etc.* Unfortunately, the ones most of us have come in contact with, who have had ALL of those traits, have been pushy b!tches in all aspects of their lives. Sad, but true. *Does it describe all of them? Of course not. But the ones it DOES describe, unfortunately, ruin it for the majority of those who are loving and nurturing in addition to those other traits.


I understand you point of view Maricha, and to some extent it _may_ be true.
But is it true in all cases?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

The vast majority of women and men, I know, who have achieved this level of self awareness have been married but, have had many discrete affairs. They need the appearance and closeness of a mate but, they also need the experience and excitement of clandestine relations. 

Not everyone does this. However, the ones who are succussful will be understanding of their mate as well as have a near perfect level of discretion. This is the way to achieve all. This is the near perfect scenario. Some can do it. Some cannot.

I am not blaming. I am not finding fault. I am stating what I have observed. Others may have observed something different.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> FrenchFry,
> I must say I like your answer!
> I like all the other responses but your answer leads me to another question I have in the back of my mind.
> 
> ...


They look for a guy with most of the things on the list..

Who is intelligent, funny, loving, passionate, affectionate, kind hearted, generous in all things, honest, nurturing in the way men can be nurturing, creative… and not intimidated by a strong woman.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> FrenchFry,
> 
> 
> What type of traits would a woman with most of these traits look for in a man she wants to be her mate / husband?
> ...


1]Task focused. Single minded.
2]Determined, bold, and a competitive high achiever.
3]Winning is part of his identity.
4]Higher sexual libido.
5]Emotionally self sufficient.
6]More aggressive. 
7]Enjoys recognition but doesn’t need approval from peers.
8]Gets straight to the point without social chat.
9]Close relationships with parents and family.
10]Fiercely independent – not looking for a woman to take care of him, he knows how to take care of himself.
12]He doesn’t care what people think of him.
13]Gives his opinions – doesn’t wait to be asked.
14]Intelligent, well informed, resourceful.
15]Not afraid of the unknown,fights for what is his.
16]Honor, integrity, and loyalty.
17]Fiercely protective of himself, his family and everyone he loves.
19]He is selective about who he invites into his private life.
20]He is well prepared for his own survival and for those he loves.
21]He won’t allow others take advantage of him or those he loves
24]He can hold his own in the boardroom, bedroom, or on the street. He commands respect.
25]Solitude nourishes him.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> I left out those " qualities" for a specific reason
> Those qualities are generally attributed to women. Women are expected to be like that.
> The assumption is that this list represent _additional_ qualities that makes her a cut above the rest.
> _Alpha Female._


I don't think this particular list makes her any more desirable, or better than me, or any other woman who doesn't have all of those traits. Each person is unique and brings something different to the relationship. I know that my husband would not find a woman with ALL of those traits to be attractive. Hell, if I had them all, we'd be butting heads more than we already do! But, no, I don't admire her in the sense that I would want to be like her. It's not me, and it never will be. They don't put her on a higher level than anyone else. And, IMO, the same applies to so-called "alpha males".


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Yes, they CAN be loving, nurturing, etc. Unfortunately, the ones most of us have come in contact with, who have had ALL of those traits, have been pushy b!tches in all aspects of their lives. Sad, but true. Does it describe all of them? Of course not. But the ones it DOES describe, unfortunately, ruin it for the majority of those who are loving and nurturing in addition to those other traits.


I think that there are a lot of women who have those traits but are not recognized as such unless you truly get to know them. These women put forth a more feminine exterior simply because they are feminine, nurturing, etc. and the things on the list. The list does not rule them.

The women you see you are so notably alpha, to the point of being pushy b!tches, are the minority. But they are women who somehow have decided that acting that way is the way to go. They are the most noticeable because they are hard to take and easy to pick out and thus the type that comes to mind when some think of ‘alpha’ female.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> I understand you point of view Maricha, and to some extent it _may_ be true.
> *But is it true in all cases?*





Maricha75 said:


> Yes, they CAN be loving, nurturing, etc. Unfortunately, the ones most of us have come in contact with, who have had ALL of those traits, have been pushy b!tches in all aspects of their lives. Sad, but true.* Does it describe all of them? Of course not.* But the ones it DOES describe, unfortunately, ruin it for the majority of those who are loving and nurturing in addition to those other traits.


Pretty sure I answered that question in the same reply, CM. I said the ones I, as well most of the others who have replied, have met have been that way.... NOT ALL, obviously... but the ones we HAVE met have been this way.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think that the identification with the father is something that is associated with youth, but changes quite noticeably with time. Some women with these traits act disdainful of women in general and identify with men, esp. their fathers.

Once the rough edges are softened a bit by experience, the natural identification with a mother can happen more easily. (As I got older, I actually came to see my mother as the stronger partner in my parents' marriage.)


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> I don't think this particular list makes her any more desirable, or better than me, or any other woman who doesn't have all of those traits. Each person is unique and brings something different to the relationship. *I know that my husband would not find a woman with ALL of those traits to be attractive. Hell, if I had them all, we'd be butting heads more than we already do! *But, no, I don't admire her in the sense that I would want to be like her. It's not me, and it never will be. They don't put her on a higher level than anyone else. And, IMO, the same applies to so-called "alpha males".


Just a thought... 

Do you assume that a woman with those traits would not be able to see other people's points of view and to compromise? Why would having those traits necessitate butting heads?


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Corrected: Well, I think that I have all those traits except "25]Solitude nourishes her."
> 
> I've been told by many men that I'm really good looking but they would never be in a relationship with me because of that. My reply is that it's ok.. I'm just looking for on man who can deal with a woman like me. Don't need all men to want to be with me.
> 
> ...


EleGirl,
You stole my answer.
I've never thought of myself as an alpha woman.
Honestly, bare bones truth.... I've always blamed being type 1 diabetic for the "way I am". Strength is not an option. It's a matter of survival, to the point of surviving WELL takes a lot more energy. Once your're on that path of just push for success, the rest of it falls into place. I can't turn it off, because to do so for me causes fear that I will also lose control of my health. How sad is that?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Pretty sure I answered that question in the same reply, CM. I said the ones I, as well most of the others who have replied, have met have been that way.... NOT ALL, obviously... but the ones we HAVE met have been this way.



Ok .
Point Taken!


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Just a thought...
> 
> Do you assume that a woman with those traits would not be able to see other people's points of view and to compromise? Why would having those traits necessitate butting heads?


Sigh... I meant FOR ME, Ele. I know myself well enough to say that if *I* had all those traits, that is how it would be for *me*. Knowing my husband's personality as I do, and my own EXPERIENCE with those I have mentioned above, if I was like THEM, that would be the case. Yes, I know that some have stated they have those traits and are also nurturing, etc. Unfortunately, I have not had the pleasure of actually meeting such a woman, so I only have my experience to draw on.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

.....had these type of traits?

1]Task focused. Single minded.
2]Determined, bold, and a competitive high achiever.
3]Winning is part of her identity.
4]*Higher sexual libido.*
5]Emotionally self sufficient.
6]More aggressive. Actively pursues power and status.
*A risk taker.*
7]*Enjoys recognition but doesn’t need approval from peers.*
8]*Gets straight to the point without social chat.*
9]*Closer relationship to father than mother. - I'd say I'm equally close to both. Growing up I identified more with my father*
10]Fiercely independent – not looking for a man to take care of her, she takes care of herself.
11]*She leads and expects everyone to follow. - at work, yes. At home, no. With friends, it depends*
12]She doesn’t care what people think of her.
13]Gives her opinions – doesn’t wait to be asked.
14]*Intelligent, well informed, resourceful.*
15]*Not afraid of the unknown,fights for what is hers.*
16]*Honor, integrity, and loyalty.
17]Fiercely protective of herself, her family and everyone she loves.
18]Nature created her to lead her family and community.
19]She is selective about who she invites into her private life.
20]She is well prepared for her own survival and for those she loves.
21]She won’t allow others take advantage of her or those she loves
22]The leader in the workplace and in her community.
23]She’s easy-going and doesn’t throw tantrums, whine, b!tch or nag
24]She can hold her own in the boardroom, bedroom, or on the street. She commands respect.*
25]Solitude nourishes her. * Nah. I'm an extravert through and through. *

There. Thats me. Thanks CM, that was fun! 

Now I'm going back to read the rest of the replies.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> They look for a guy with most of the things on the list..
> 
> Who is intelligent, funny, loving, passionate, affectionate, kind hearted, generous in all things, honest, nurturing in the way men can be nurturing, creative… and not intimidated by a strong woman.


Can you point any NEGATIVE , or undesirable traits on that list?
Can having too much ,or a cluster of these traits make her imbalanced to the point of being " not likeable " or b!tchy?

If so which ones?
And who is most likely to describe her as being that way, 
[ b!tchy, not likeable ],male of females?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Lyris said:


> .....had these type of traits?
> 
> 1]Task focused. Single minded.
> 2]Determined, bold, and a competitive high achiever.
> ...


Lyris,
Nice to have you on board.
Do you think men are intimidated by women who posess a lot of these traits?
If so, why do you think they are?


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Thinking about number 10, do you mean in all ways? Because I rely on my husband to take care of me emotionally as I take care of him, but not in other ways. 

He does take care of us financially right now because of the structure of our lives with young children, but if I needed to I could certainly take practical care of myself and my children. I'm qualified and equipped to do so.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Lyris said:


> Thinking about number 10, do you mean in all ways? Because I rely on my husband to take care of me emotionally as I take care of him, but not in other ways.
> 
> He does take care of us financially right now because of the structure of our lives with young children, but if I needed to I could certainly take practical care of myself and my children. I'm qualified and equipped to do so.


Well you said #10.
"....10]Fiercely independent – not looking for a man to take care of her, she takes care of herself....."

I don't know if I agree with you, because I think most men find a woman who is financially independent and emotionally strong to be very sexy.

I think the men who are intimidated by these women are intimidated because of control issues in a relationship. They look ahead and see conflict and trouble.

Agree?


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## animal 2011 (Aug 9, 2011)

Imo, many of these traits sound like "selfish be-atch". Nothing wrong with standing up for yourself as long as you always have compassion and kindness for others as much as your own self.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I'd call her a little too obsessed with lists.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> Well you said #10.
> "....10]Fiercely independent – not looking for a man to take care of her, she takes care of herself....."
> 
> I don't know if I agree with you, because I think most men find a woman who is financially independent and emotionally strong to be very sexy.


Really? I thought the opposite, especially after reading these boards for the past year. Women who make more than their husbands seem to have more issues. Not many men can handle that.

I know you said financially independent. But let's face it... most men still make more than women. For a woman to be financially independent means she probably makes the same or more than her husband. You can't be financially independent by working part time or having a "lesser" job so you have the time to look after the house.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Can you point any NEGATIVE , or undesirable traits on that list?
> Can having too much ,or a cluster of these traits make her imbalanced to the point of being " not likeable " or b!tchy?
> 
> If so which ones?
> ...


I guess the following are traits that _could _be perceived as threatening and / or b!tchy to other women - particularly if she fails to act with respect and integrity.

2]Determined, bold, and a competitive high achiever.
3]Winning is part of her identity.
6]More aggressive. Actively pursues power and status.
A risk taker.
11]She leads and expects everyone to follow.
22]The leader in the workplace and in her community.

And of course there are many more in the list that a man might find threatening in a woman, particularly if he's looking for a traditional sort of woman.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Lyris,
> Nice to have you on board.
> Do you think men are intimidated by women who posess a lot of these traits?
> If so, why do you think they are?


I'd say most men and women like to feel necessary to their spouses. And lots of people are insecure. 

It takes a high level of self awareness and security to say, "you do this better than me, and that's fine. I do these things better than you". 

I think I probably have intimidated some men in the past. It was never really an issue though because my husband and I got together so young. In my mid 20s we spent some time apart, and I know there were a couple of men I had short term relationships with who couldn't really cope with number 14, in particular. They really liked number 4 though. 

Lucky for me, my husband is strong, super intelligent, commands respect and was raised by a single mother. He sees nothing unusual about women in charge. And also, I'm able to be very emotionally open and vulnerable with him, probably because I had a secure and happy childhood. He's never in any doubt how absolutely necessary he is to me.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

deejov said:


> Really? I thought the opposite, especially after reading these boards for the past year. *Women who make more than their husbands seem to have more issues.* Not many men can handle that.
> 
> I know you said financially independent. But let's face it... most men still make more than women. For a woman to be financially independent means she probably makes the same or more than her husband. You can't be financially independent by working part time or having a "lesser" job so you have the time to look after the house.


^^^^^^^
Can you explain what you mean by" issues."

I'm talking about before marriage and children.
A woman who has accomplished a certain level of financial independence and posess clusters of these traits. looking for a husband.
Men are attracted to her status because in their eyes she's a " big catch." But they think she would most likely be in control of the relationship and a power differential could develop.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Well you said #10.
> "....10]Fiercely independent – not looking for a man to take care of her, she takes care of herself....."
> 
> I don't know if I agree with you, because I think most men find a woman who is financially independent and emotionally strong to be very sexy.


But, CM, she qualified her reasoning for that particular one. She has emotional needs that her husband meets. Likewise, she meets his needs. And, currently, her husband provides for them financially. She CAN do it, but right now, the dynamic of their relationship allows for her husband to do so at this time.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> But, CM, she qualified her reasoning for that particular one. She has emotional needs that her husband meets. Likewise, she meets his needs. And, currently, her husband provides for them financially. She CAN do it, but right now, the dynamic of their relationship allows for her husband to do so at this time.


Thanks Maricha. I was trying to work out how to explain what I meant, but now I don't need to!


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

deejov said:


> Really? I thought the opposite, especially after reading these boards for the past year. Women who make more than their husbands seem to have more issues. Not many men can handle that.


Mine couldn't. He's happier when he makes more money than me.

However I think now that he's more secure with me I don't think he'd mind so much.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

CM,
My own experiences, all I got for this one.
Traditionally, the man is more alpha than the woman. I dated guys who told me flat out it was too much pressure, the bar was too high they always felt 'weaker' to me and it did not bode well for a relationship, they wanted something "easier". They could be a "man" much easier with someone who made much less money,and NEEDED them. 

There was no obvious need for them in my life. 

I did not get married until I was in my late 30's. Go figure.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> I guess the following are traits that _could _be perceived as threatening and / or b!tchy to other women - particularly if she fails to act with respect and integrity.
> 
> *2]Determined, bold, and a competitive high achiever.
> 3]Winning is part of her identity.
> ...


^^^^^^^^^
This right here is what I'm talking about.
Some men would be intimidated by a woman with this particular set of traits. 
Because they are a powerful leadership traits.

So the question is, how would a woman with such a powerful set of traits co exist with a man with the same set of traits?

IMO , that is what intimidates some men.
What do you think?


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> ^^^^^^^
> 
> Men are attracted to her status because in their eyes she's a " big catch." But they think she would most likely be in control of the relationship and a power differential could develop.


But that's where they might be wrong. Whilst I certainly like to be in charge of my career and life, I certainly don't want to be in control of my relationship.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

deejov said:


> CM,
> My own experiences, all I got for this one.
> Traditionally, the man is more alpha than the woman. I dated guys who told me flat out it was too much pressure, the bar was too high they always felt 'weaker' to me and it did not bode well for a relationship, they wanted something "easier". They could be a "man" much easier with someone who made much less money,and NEEDED them.
> 
> ...


I think any man who needs a woman to depend on him financially in order for him to feel more " manly" is insecure.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> But that's where they might be wrong. Whilst I certainly like to be in charge of my career and life, I certainly don't want to be in control of my relationship.


So would you agree to be in a relationship where a power differential exist in your husband's favour?
In other words,
Whenever there is a difference of opinion and your argument is equally sound or holds more weight than his, would you simply back down for peace sake?


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I don't want to fall in love with a resume.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Does she exist? I can't think of women in my life who have all of these traits.

Do you admire women with these type of traits? I admire women with certain traits - and some of these are included in this list. 

Which of these traits do you recognize in yourself? I've answered but curious CM, did you create this list? Are these traits you admire or would consider as the Alpha female?

1]Task focused. Single minded
Task focused - only because it's getting me to the bigger picture in mind. Not necessarily single minded.

2]Determined, bold, and a competitive high achiever.
Determined and yes, sometimes bold. I challenge myself; I'm not in competition with others. In work settings, I'm more the quiet achiever and let my work speak for itself. I will go for opportunities but I also like to see others achieve, so I'll help where I can for them to get there.

3]Winning is part of her identity.
No. My identity isn't tied up with winning - what would someone be winning anyway? 

4]Higher sexual libido.
Perhaps.

5]Emotionally self sufficient.
What does this mean? I think the fact I'm posting on a forum and observing my behavior and working things out this way would mean I'm not. I look to others, and observe myself through others, to understand myself better *head explodes*

6]More aggressive. Actively pursues power and status. A risk taker.
I'm a risk taker in certain areas of life. I don't fear change or the unknown and that drives certain decisions I make. I don't need power or status. 

7]Enjoys recognition but doesn’t need approval from peers.
Yes. 

8]Gets straight to the point without social chat.
Sometimes - other times I write long answers on a forum.

9]Closer relationship to father than mother.
No, balanced between both of them.

10]Fiercely independent – not looking for a man to take care of her, she takes care of herself.
What does fiercely independent mean? I can take care of myself, but it doesn't mean I don't need my man.

11]She leads and expects everyone to follow.
No - I neither lead or follow - who is 'everyone'?

12]She doesn’t care what people think of her.
I do care. It helps me consider someone else's perspective.

13]Gives her opinions – doesn’t wait to be asked.
There's a time and place.

14]Intelligent, well informed, resourceful.
I'd like to think so.

15]Not afraid of the unknown,fights for what is hers.
Yes - but I don't trample on others to get what I need. Nothing is owed to me in the first place. Fight for what is mine? 

16]Honor, integrity, and loyalty.
I'd like to think so.

17]Fiercely protective of herself, her family and everyone she loves.
I can become protective, yes. 

18]Nature created her to lead her family and community.
I think society and upbringing and such factors help sculpt us into the type of people we are. 

19]She is selective about who she invites into her private life.
Yes - excluding this forum lol.

20]She is well prepared for her own survival and for those she loves.
I need a bug-out bag.

21]She won’t allow others take advantage of her or those she loves
Yes.

22]The leader in the workplace and in her community.
I'm a team-player, quiet achiever. I don't need to be the leader. I don't need to be the follower either. I guess I'm adaptable depending on the situation.

23]She’s easy-going and doesn’t throw tantrums, whine, b!tch or nag
I'd like to think so but I'm flawed. I don't do tantrums.

24]She can hold her own in the boardroom, bedroom, or on the street. She commands respect.
I treat others with respect.

25]Solitude nourishes her.
Yes - and sometimes this is a downfall but those close to me have come to understand this about me.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> I think any man who needs a woman to depend on him financially in order for him to feel more " manly" is insecure.


welcome to (most) men


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

> Originally Posted by Cosmos View Post
> I guess the following are traits that could be perceived as threatening and / or b!tchy to other women - particularly if she fails to act with respect and integrity.
> 
> 2]Determined, bold, and a competitive high achiever.
> ...





> CarribeanMan said:
> ^^^^^^^^^
> This right here is what I'm talking about.
> Some men would be intimidated by a woman with this particular set of traits.
> ...


I can quite see how these traits might intimidate some men, and I think it's all about balance. I think possibly the biggest fear is that by achieving power and success, a woman might lose her femininity and vulnerability towards them.

We only have to look at couples like Margaret and Dennis Thatcher to know that not all men feel threatened by powerful women. Contrary to how he was sometimes, cruelly, portrayed, Dennis Thatcher was very much a man in his own right, who was proud of his wife and her achievements. Without his encouragement and support one wonders if she would have achieved all that she did.

I think it's all about balance


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Dollystanford said:


> welcome to (most) men


He might not start out insecure, but after he gets teased enough about being a kept man... it changes


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

These women exist. I have a very dear friend who fits everything on the list. She has more strength and character than even most men I've known. She has it all and I love and respect her more than anyone.

She is 49 and she has never been married. One son, but was never married to his father. She tells me all the time about her loneliness especially now that she's getting older and her health is going down. She says that men are intimidated by her. That they like a little vulnerability in a woman and she wishes she could be "softer". 

My alpha male husband (he is the male version of the list) has admitted to me in the past that he likes to be head of the household, provider, and leader. That he feels needed when he takes care of his family. 

He wouldn't last one day with my friend. LOL


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## tiredandout (Jun 1, 2011)

> 1]*Task focused. Single minded.*
> 2]*Determined, bold, and a competitive high achiever.*
> 3]Winning is part of her identity.
> 4]Higher sexual libido.
> ...


Funnily enough, I identify with many of the statements above. Yet, at the same time some parts of me are insecure, submissive and afraid. And I have to say, that might be the worst combination of all, at least in a relationship. I'm working on the insecurities and it is making us healthier as a couple. But previously I've been the fiercefully independent, a tad bossy type internally — but afraid to show my true skin and therefore conflicted. Resulting in a lot of stupid communication issues.

I don't think that these qualities rule out being kind, loving and nurturing. I am perfectly capable of being so, and am. But I admit there are times when this part of me gets shoved aside by my need for independence, self-suffiecency and career-orientedness. Again, these are not my proudest moments but they happen. I have some traditionally "manly" qualities (can't do 2 things at a time, can't take a hint, like physically strenous exercise) but also some very traditionally "womanly" ones.

These qualities can be great in a woman or they can be detrimental. It all depends on the whole personality, the way they conduct themselves and how they connect with other people.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> So would you agree to be in a relationship where a power differential exist in your husband's favour?
> In other words,_
> Whenever there is a difference of opinion and your argument is equally sound or holds more weight than his, would you simply back down for peace sake?_


I wouldn't really need to because that isn't how we tend to settle our differences. Neither of us has the final say by default, and if we can't reach agreement we're more likely to weigh up the pros and cons of each point of view and settle on the most logical / mutually beneficial conclusion.

Having said that, there is a slight power differential in my relationship, in that I do tend to respect his more logical method of reasoning, and tend to seek his opinion more than he does mine.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

dixieangel said:


> These women exist. I have a very dear friend who fits everything on the list. She has more strength and character than even most men I've known. She has it all and I love and respect her more than anyone.
> 
> She is 49 and she has never been married. One son, but was never married to his father. She tells me all the time about her loneliness especially now that she's getting older and her health is going down. She says that men are intimidated by her. That they like a little vulnerability in a woman and she wishes she could be "softer".
> 
> ...


I have a friend like this too. She is divorced after a very shortlived marriage. She initiated the divorce. There wasn't any adultery or abuse. She too is lonely now and told me recently that she fills her time with activities because it's lonely coming home to an empty apartment. Like your friend, she knows she could be softer, but she doesn't know how to do it. My husband, who has a good mix of the so-called "alpha" an "beta" traits so often discussed on this board, says he couldn't be married to her. 
There are probably women who have most of the traits on that list and are happy either single or in a relationship, but I feel bad for my friend because she yearns for a steady relationship yet doesn't seem to know how to be in one.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

There was some political philosopher from the Enlightenment, I forget who - de Tocqueville, Turgot? In any case the question posed was would mankind thrive under a regime ruled by angels. The answer he came up with was clearly no. Angels would have nothing but contempt and disdain placed in close contact with mere mortals. The most successful relations among men (and women) are clearly those among equals, more or less. Equals have a better understanding and compassion for the other's failures and weaknesses.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Hmmm....

1]Task focused. Single minded. *Check*
2]Determined, bold, and a competitive high achiever. *Check, well before marriage anyway*
3]Winning is part of her identity.*Check... unfortunately -.- *
4]Higher sexual libido. *Check... *sigh* *
5]Emotionally self sufficient. * Check - only before marriage*
6]More aggressive. Actively pursues power and status.
A risk taker. * Check *
7]Enjoys recognition but doesn’t need approval from peers. * Check, except she still needs MY approval from time to time *
8]Gets straight to the point without social chat. * Nope... *
9]Closer relationship to father than mother. * Nope... *
10]Fiercely independent – not looking for a man to take care of her, she takes care of herself. * Check, before marriage at least *
11]She leads and expects everyone to follow. * Check, with her mates at least *
12]She doesn’t care what people think of her. * Check, most of the time *
13]Gives her opinions – doesn’t wait to be asked. * Check, most of the time *
14]Intelligent, well informed, resourceful. * Check *
15]Not afraid of the unknown,fights for what is hers. * Check *
16]Honor, integrity, and loyalty. * Check *
17]Fiercely protective of herself, her family and everyone she loves. * Check *
18]Nature created her to lead her family and community. * Check... causes problems sometimes *
19]She is selective about who she invites into her private life. * Check *
20]She is well prepared for her own survival and for those she loves. * Check *
21]She won’t allow others take advantage of her or those she loves * Check... in an odd way *
22]The leader in the workplace and in her community. * In the past yes *
23]She’s easy-going and doesn’t throw tantrums, whine, b!tch or nag * Nope lol *
24]She can hold her own in the boardroom, bedroom, or on the street. She commands respect. * Most of the time, check *
25]Solitude nourishes her. * Not with me, nope *

Do you know any women with these traits?
Yes, my freakin nutcase wifey!

Are you attracted to them?
Yes, she lost a few traits but I want her to have them back!
So before marriage, she was 21/25 "Alpha" according to that list
Nowadays she's more... 16/25

If so why , and if no why?
Because then I can hold her, and walk with her; side by side as my equal, my partner, my comrade-in-arms, my lover, and my wife.



> She is 49 and she has never been married. One son, but was never married to his father. She tells me all the time about her loneliness especially now that she's getting older and her health is going down. She says that men are intimidated by her. That they like a little vulnerability in a woman and she wishes she could be "softer".


That is what I find so fking sad, one man's treasure being treated like rubbish by another man. I have RARELY loved in my life because women like my wife are so fking rare and to this day I still tell her and re-affirm to her that the truth is...

SHE HAS ZERO FKING COMPETITION

Wish she fking believes that...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

2]Determined, bold, and a competitive high achiever.
3]Winning is part of her identity. 
6]More aggressive. Actively pursues power and status.
A risk taker.
8]Gets straight to the point without social chat.
10]Fiercely independent – not looking for a man to take care of her, she takes care of herself.
11]She leads and expects everyone to follow.
12]She doesn’t care what people think of her.
13]Gives her opinions – doesn’t wait to be asked.


Caribbean Man said:


> Can you point any NEGATIVE , or undesirable traits on that list?
> Can having too much ,or a cluster of these traits make her imbalanced to the point of being " not likeable " or b!tchy?
> 
> If so which ones?
> ...



I listed the ones that I think if they are too strong in the woman (or man) would cause the person to be over bearing or hard to deal with. As in most things, moderation and balance are the key.

I think that men and women are equally likely to describe a woman with those traits “not likeable” or “b!tchy”. A man who is too strong in those areas would be called something like over bearing, arrogant, unlikeable.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

deejov said:


> CM,
> My own experiences, all I got for this one.
> Traditionally, the man is more alpha than the woman. I dated guys who told me flat out it was too much pressure, the bar was too high they always felt 'weaker' to me and it did not bode well for a relationship, they wanted something "easier". They could be a "man" much easier with someone who made much less money,and NEEDED them.
> 
> ...


I don't get this. To say that because a woman makes as much or more than her husband.. then she does not 'need' him is nonsense. 

The 'need' is on the emotional level.. having a bff, a lover, someone to look after and to look after you, having the father of your children.

To feel that she does not need him because she makes as much as him means that the money is what the relationship is about. Sad way to look at things.


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## Viseral (Feb 25, 2011)

I'm going to get flamed for this, but I'm going to say it anyway:

Men and women are not equal.

Men and women have equal value, equal worth, but are completely different.

This is OK.

So many people have been led to believe that equality is synonymous with sameness. We are not the same. We have entirely different biological systems which make us uniquely qualified for different roles. We are each designed to be symbiotic with the other. We were not meant to live in competition.

To think that a man can do everything a woman can do, and that a women can do everything a man can do is perverse. Since I'm a gear head, the analogy I like to use is one of an engine. An engine needs a both a camshaft and a crankshaft to run. Both are required, but they perform completely different tasks. The camshaft doesn't say to the crankshaft "hey I'm gonna do your job, or vice versa", both are needed.

Technology has leveled the playing field to some degree because machines now do a lot of the work that men and women previously had to do on their own. However, we still live on with our own separate biology's, wants and needs etc. To deny our own different biology's is a denial of nature and reality.

Women are hard wired to be attracted to traditional masculine traits. Why do you think we discuss "manning up" here so much? Likewise, men are hard wired to be attracted to traditional female traits. There is nothing wrong with this.

Would I be attracted to a "strong woman"? That depends. Would I be attracted to a woman who exhibits predominantly masculine traits, probably not, because I'm not biologically hard wired to do so. That's not insecurity. It's reality.

Personally, I don't think there's anything stronger or more beautiful than a woman who knows how to use the power of her own femininity.

My two cents.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> So would you agree to be in a relationship where a power differential exist in your husband's favour?
> In other words,
> Whenever there is a difference of opinion and your argument is equally sound or holds more weight than his, would you simply back down for peace sake?


It's called picking your battles. Sure I'd back down on a lot of things. Must things are not worth fighting or arguing over.

But is there really a need for the man to always be right?

I believe in a policy of joint agreement.. both spouses need to agree on important things. I would expect that a secure man could come to a compromise just as I can.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

^^ I don't see anything masculine with my wife's alpha traits

She's feminine, but "alpha", a WOMAN, not a little girl. Stubborn, but reasonable, intelligent, but doesn't think too much (unlike me). But furthermore, the one thing I love so much about her is her individualism. She thinks for herself and goes for what SHE wants, not what society wants of her.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> There was some political philosopher from the Enlightenment, I forget who - de Tocqueville, Turgot? In any case the question posed was would mankind thrive under a regime ruled by angels. The answer he came up with was clearly no. Angels would have nothing but contempt and disdain placed in close contact with mere mortals. The most successful relations among men (and women) are clearly those among equals, more or less. Equals have a better understanding and compassion for the other's failures and weaknesses.


Brilliant!


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> FrenchFry,
> I must say I like your answer!
> I like all the other responses but your answer leads me to another question I have in the back of my mind.
> 
> ...


I have most of the traits listed in the first post, my husband is also an Alpha, in our case, Like Recognized Like.
I could never be in a relationship with a man who did not have as strong of a personality as I do because I would not be able to relate to him. 
The two of us we complement each other well, there are things he is stronger at & there are things I'm stronger at, yet we do not "complete" each other, as were both fully formed adults who completed ourselves before we met.
We are partners, equals in our marriage & the times that we have become unbalanced in equality is when we've had our biggest issues.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I agree that men and women are different in many ways because of our very biology. 

However there is nothing inherently masculine in the list of traits and they would not be all of the traits that a woman has. 

A woman could have all of those traits and still be vulnerable, loving nurturing, funny, etc in a relationship. To try to put aside women who have those traits means that society will not allow women to earn as much as men and be as influential as men in the society. 

This does women as a whole a lot of harm. It means that women cannot participate in society as full members. It means that women cannot earn the same level of income some men can earn. Throughout history, and even today, a large percentage of women do not have a husband to support them or care for them. These women are often raising children and the father is nowhere to be seen.

In the past women like this were forced into poverty, often into prostitution as it was the only job a woman could find or they were forced into marriages or the sole reason of finding a man so that they and their children did not starve to death.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> I could never be in a relationship with a man who did not have as strong of a personality as I do because I would not be able to relate to him.


I felt the same way, hence my wife was perfect for me. Men were extremely intimidated by her personality (not to mention her sexual history) when I simply could not understand why

A weaker wife may be easier but when you need someone by your side, you'll only find someone needing you to lead her

A strong wife by your side allows you to feel like you can conquer the world, and at times, when my wife is actually on MY side, that's exactly how I feel.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> .....had these type of traits?
> 
> 1]Task focused. Single minded.
> 2]Determined, bold, and a competitive high achiever.
> ...


Haven't read the whole thread but I'll jump in anyway.

To quote Austin Powers: "She's a MAN, baby..."

And she doesn't sound like long term relationship material. At least to my 'poor little male ego'

But she sounds like a fun DATE.

I think a human 'Alpha Female' is a bit different than a male alpha.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

^ Why not? =/
That's what I don't understand... not that I'm complaining lol

But still, why not long term relationship material?

Meh, this thread is making me appreciate my wife... funny, now I'm in the mood of surprising her and spoiling her senseless today hehe


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

deejov said:


> Really? I thought the opposite, especially after reading these boards for the past year. Women who make more than their husbands seem to have more issues. Not many men can handle that.
> 
> I know you said financially independent. But let's face it... most men still make more than women. For a woman to be financially independent means she probably makes the same or more than her husband. You can't be financially independent by working part time or having a "lesser" job so you have the time to look after the house.


There are a number of threads (2 spring to mind immediately) where the wife made more and was sleeping around. This is anecdotal but the germane question is 'who would this woman be attracted to?' And the answer which rolls off my tongue isn't 'house husband'
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## barcafan (Jul 25, 2012)

JCD said:


> Haven't read the whole thread but I'll jump in anyway.
> 
> To quote Austin Powers: "*She's a MAN, baby...*"
> 
> ...


Was going to say exactly the same thing!


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> :
> 
> So all in good nature I have to be a strong lady, I have to be driven and task oriented in my life, to be opinionated and not scared to voice them and really try to achieve control of my sphere otherwise my husband thinks less of me, turns into an ahole and walks all over me.* He needs me to challenge him, just like I need him to challenge me and that's how we work best. We need each other, just like any other good relationship where we are there for one another and we rely on one another but there isn't that natural deferment that some couples describe. We have big ass power struggles, I'm not going to lie (hello, he's a Leo and I'm a Taurus  but in the end after we've hashed it out we have way more respect for one another.*


This part highlighted is the type of dynamic existing between my wife and I.
I am the type of person who loves a challenge. I would take on any task, the more difficult it is the more I enjoy working on it.
Tight, impossible deadlines.
Difficult specifications.
I like those type of jobs.

And so we own a business started by me, and we employ a number of contractors .
My wife has this way of challenging me and asking me difficult questions that I don't really want to entertain at that point and time. [ In private]
Not stupid questions, but she is like a built in reality check to
" my madness."_[She is my " right hand man"]_
I tell her " there's a method to my madness." She responds to me by saying: " Then explain this method to me."

But what is most important , is that she supports me. She is not challenging my ability to lead, she is just covering my a$$. Mistakes can cost tens of thousands of dollars.
She is genuinely glad for me whenever we achieve success.
And that matters a whole lot.
If she were a little " softer" I don't think I would have respected her much.
In our marriage relationship, she is very nurturing and caring.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> But that's where they might be wrong. Whilst I certainly like to be in charge of my career and life, I certainly don't want to be in control of my relationship.


Excuse me, but that trait seems to be in conflict with the list.

She HAS to be in charge. She doesn't CARE about other people's opinion and one assumes that includes the husband! You don't get to cherry pick. It's all or nothing. A girl with MOST. Of the list would be a catch. A girl who constantly has to compete with, and dominate her husband (isn't that what leadership is all about?) and doesn't CARE what he thinks about the way she does things or acts is a train wreck (or affair...after all, she doesn't CARE what people think about fidelity) waiting to happen
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

JCD said:


> Excuse me, but that trait seems to be in conflict with the list.
> 
> She HAS to be in charge. She doesn't CARE about other people's opinion and one assumes that includes the husband! You don't get to cherry pick. It's all or nothing. A girl with MOST. Of the list would be a catch. A girl who constantly has to compete with, and dominate her husband (isn't that what leadership is all about?) and doesn't CARE what he thinks about the way she does things or acts is a train wreck (or affair...after all, she doesn't CARE what people think about fidelity) waiting to happen
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, I don't believe it does conflict with the list. Being strong, independent and in control of ourselves doesn't mean that we want to control or dominate our partners. Even if I could, I know I don't.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

A strong woman doesn't mean she doesn't care about her husband's opinions. She may disagree with them, and fight you senseless about it but that's the whole JOY of it!!! It's when she fails to stand up to me and voice her opinion that kills it.

And leadership to me is not about dominance. Even at work despite being the owner I try to make the management structure as flat as possible so we all work as a team, all have our jobs, all have our responsibilities, and no one looking over your shoulder telling you to do this do that. If there's anything strict about my workplace it's that I enforce that rule; we work as a TEAM.

And just because she has her own opinions doesn't mean she will automatically not care about fidelity. Let's compare one of my exs to my wife in this situation: Threesomes/swinging. My ex did everything for me, let me lead her, did anything to please me, and I even used her to satisfy my fantasies. I lost respect for her no matter what. My wife however, told me (repeatedly) to get fked. She stands up for herself and who she is, and won't let a man dictate how she will use her own body.

That's something I think "feminism" misses, giving out power without first letting women know the importance of taking responsibility for one's actions. In fact, I think alot of "feminists" these days tend to be nothing but bitter man-haters struggling to act tough. Sorry, but strength and toughness are two different things.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Now I can admit that the potential is always there to be a "bad strong woman", my wife admitted it to me as well a while back. We all have our own angels and demons to deal with, at her worse she managed to manipulate our entire social network to her benefit against me, cornered me at every turn, kept all her bases covered to the point I couldn't point one thing at her. I found myself helpless - at the same time impressed, by her guile.

It did lead to seperation with me having no other choice but to put my foot down and said "FKING BRING IT ON!!!!" with the consequences, and forced her to realise that I sure as hell can be just as strong, if not stronger then her. But that was my mistake; I allowed it to happen, I should have been firm all the way through, I under-estimated her, and she under-estimated her own demons.

But that's past, and it's just one of our "world wars". And you know what's the beauty of it? We went all through that, and we're still together, knowing that when it happens again we know exactly what to do, and that we are strong enough to conquer it. Not only that, but we gained a much deeper level of understanding with each other.

Our relationship has always been a challenge, but with all we've been through together, the good times and the bad times, I am convinced that throughout the bad times, I can confidently say that my wife will always be there on the other side with me. I could never say that with anyone not like her.

That's the catch: They can either be your dreams or your worst nightmare, and nothing in between. When they are on your side you will feel complete, on top of the world and able to take on anything. But when they aren't... bah! lol


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

So basically agree that most of these traits called 
" Alpha Female" are actually GOOD traits.
They are desirable traits that any female should aspire to, and that they can actually complement her nurturing characteristics etc.

I think most said that they saw a few of these traits in themselves, and would prefer a man / husband who would complement their traits with similar traits.

Basically, the same traits that make the Alpha Female are the same ones that make the Alpha male.

So my question is, why do some women say that Alpha male traits are not desirable in men , and that it turns men into a$$holes and jerks?

My argument is that if a man is a stupid jerk, he is a stupid jerk whether he has Alpha traits or not.

The same argument holds for a woman who is a conniving b!tch. Having Alpha traits does not change her into anything admirable of likeable, she will still be a conniving b!tch.

Should a man feel insecure if his wife decides she wants to add some of those traits on that list to improve her personality where she thinks its lacking?

Should a woman feel upset if her husband decides he wants to add some of those traits on that list to improve his personality where its lacking?

*Having strong leadership [ Alpha ] traits in a marriage with a good mix of nurturing and caring qualities is a good thing if both parties are mature enough to understand the positive aspects of these traits and treat each other with respect.*

Comments ,
_Anyone?_


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> My argument is that if a man is a stupid jerk, he is a stupid jerk whether he has Alpha traits or not.
> 
> The same argument holds for a woman who is a conniving b!tch. Having Alpha traits does not change her into anything admirable of likeable, she will always be a conniving b!tch.


Agreed!!!

Damn it CM we think alike!



> I do agree that this personality type is a little harder for some men to get into and some "alphas" love to do their best to destroy women like this.


I dunno, I don't like the label "alpha" for myself but despite my nature I've always been on a lookout for this type due to the fact that it's the only type I can truly respect and hence love... but that's just me.

My wife was well, simply "on the same league"


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> So basically agree that most of these traits called
> " Alpha Female" are actually GOOD traits.
> They are desirable traits that any female should aspire to, and that they can actually complement her nurturing characteristics etc.
> 
> ...


CM - Do you have any children? I fit most of the qualities you're listing & my husband would probably be considered alpha. He likes my strength & I like that he's not intimidated by me.

But when the kids came, the sh*t hit the fan, with two independent-minded, leaderlike, risk-taking, etc.... people, the logistics were nightmarish & the arguments were epic. Suddenly, my independence didn't look so great to him & his assertiveness seemed to leave me holding the bag all the time. It took years to work out a 'formula' that kept the peace.

Just saying.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Wifey's theme song:

Meredith Brooks - ***** Lyrics - YouTube

Lol


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> No, I don't believe it does conflict with the list. Being strong, independent and in control of ourselves doesn't mean that we want to control or dominate our partners. Even if I could, I know I don't.


Then you are changing the trait list.

He stated she HAS to be the leader. She DOESN'T need other people's recognition or affirmation. Won't depend on others fiscally.

Stating, as Ele and yourself has done, that you ARE vulnerable and NEED your spouse changes everything. You are not the girl described.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> So basically agree that most of these traits called
> " Alpha Female" are actually GOOD traits.
> They are desirable traits that any female should aspire to, and that they can actually complement her nurturing characteristics etc.
> 
> ...


Because those women misunderstand true Alpha traits, they mistake a guy being an as*hole with being an Alpha.
Sure there are Alphas who happen to be as*holes, but being an as*hole does not an Alpha make. 
Also just as a woman can be a bit*h, being a bit*h is not an Alpha trait.
To me, a bit*h is someone who is intentionally hurtful/selfish/whatever just because she can be, it's something someone persues in order to cause others suffering/ pain/discomfort with no regard for them. 
As an Alpha myslf, I do not intentionally seek out the suffering/pain/discomfort of others.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

JCD said:


> Then you are changing the trait list.
> 
> He stated she HAS to be the leader. She DOESN'T need other people's recognition or affirmation. Won't depend on others fiscally.
> 
> ...


:iagree: 

The list as described in the original post describes a woman who HAS to lead, who doesn't care what others think, doesn't make herself vulnerable to others and doesn't need much from another.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

JCD said:


> There are a number of threads (2 spring to mind immediately) where the wife made more and was sleeping around. This is anecdotal but the germane question is 'who would this woman be attracted to?' And the answer which rolls off my tongue isn't 'house husband'


There are many more threads on here when the women earn less than their husbands and they women are sleeping around.

There are threads on here were the women earns more and the husband is sleeping around.

That there were a couple of threads of women who earn more cheating does not prove that most women who earn more are not attracted to their lower income husbands.

A while back someone posts a statistic that men are more likely to cheat.. like 50% more when the wife earns more. Seem to be some very insecure men.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

Yes they exist … I am one, although in my case there are some list items that need clarification:

5. Emotionally self-sufficient … yes, however inside a love-relationship I do need occasional emotional support.

6. I view myself as assertive, rather than aggressive. I never pursued “power” over others; rather others have asked me to assume leadership or “power” roles. “Status” … meh, not important … this is in line with item #12. “Risk taker” … yes.

9. I was close to neither parent … both were mostly absent from my life after age 4 years.

11. I don’t “expect” others to follow, however if others choose to follow my lead I am fine with it.

12. True. However the exception is the opinions of people I respect.

22. Leader in the workplace … yes. Leader in the community … sometimes (when asked), however I prefer to live a private life. 

I agree with *Frenchfry* … there is nothing on the list that prevented me from also being a loving wife and nurturing mother … I love deeply and am fiercely loyal to those I love.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> CM - Do you have any children? I fit most of the qualities you're listing & my husband would probably be considered alpha. He likes my strength & I like that he's not intimidated by me.
> 
> But when the kids came, the sh*t hit the fan, with two independent-minded, leaderlike, risk-taking, etc.... people, the logistics were nightmarish & the arguments were epic. Suddenly, my independence didn't look so great to him & his assertiveness seemed to leave me holding the bag all the time. It took years to work out a 'formula' that kept the peace.
> 
> Just saying.


Ha,ha!

That's one of the reasons I didn't want children .
In the early years she would constantly test my leadership even in the marriage.We used to disagree on everything. MC told us that we both had very dominant traits. 
But I listened to her [ wife ] and tried to understand her idiosyncrasies and work around them.
_I had to think faster than her._
That worked out pretty well,she stopped second guessing me.

But we still don't have any children. I'm still kinda iffy about that part. I feel that they might somehow disturb our equilibrium.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Ha,ha!
> 
> That's one of the reasons I didn't want children .
> In the early years she would constantly test my leadership even in the marriage.We used to disagree on everything. MC told us that we both had very dominant traits.
> ...


It will definitely disturb your equilibrium. You will both have to change with children. For me, the changes were eventually good, since they made me much more considerate, I think, as well as patient, and definitely compassionate. It took my H literally 15 years to come to terms with fatherhood. Now he's a great father, but not of young children - he's a dad of grown children out in the world.

It's smart of you to realize what a seismic shift this would be to both of you to have children. Most people are clueless, the way we were & then there's no going back (and no, of course, I don't want to go back; again, I think the changes wrought were good).


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> I have to agree with EleGirl and others that I don't really see anything inherently masculine about the qualities listed. I see a definite personality type listed, but nothing inherently masculine.
> 
> I also stay at home with my son. My day is totally filled with either my son, mommy groups, parks filled with women or going out to lunch with other women. I don't really hang out with men (except work on Fridays,) I've never really had male friends and I really prefer women over men in every non-romantic aspect of my life.
> 
> But, even though my life is highly_ female,_ I am still able to be strong, to exude confidence, to not be shy about giving my opinion, to not be taken advantage of and to still be a leader in the aspects that suit me and our relationship best.


Hey FF, need a new best friend? I could have written exactly this myself. I lead a really female life, but I in no way consider myself to be any kind of 'First Officer' to my husband's 'Captain'. 

The idea that a man would get the final say over general decisions purely because of his chromosomal status is ridiculous to me. Luckily it's ridiculous to my husband too. Co-captains here, and doing very nicely.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

JCD said:


> Stating, as Ele and yourself has done, that you ARE vulnerable and NEED your spouse changes everything. You are not the girl described.
> Then you are changing the trait list.


I disagree.

10]Fiercely independent – not looking for a man to take care of her, she takes care of herself.

Does not needing a spouse to take care of her mean that she don’t need her spouse? I don’t think so. When I think of a woman needing a man to take care of her I think that she needs him to support her financially. So what if a woman does not need her husband to support her financially? She needs him in other ways.
Does a man need his wife to take care of him?

It does not say that she doesn’t need other people’s recognition or affirmation. It says that she does not need it from her peers … that’s talking about people at work. It’s not about her husband.

Let's first look at an alpha male... one who is smart enough to understand how things work. He joins a company with a new job. Does he go into that job and try to take over the lead position have be in charge of EVERYTHING. Nope, he knows what his sphere of influence is. Within his sphere he takes charge. But he does not try to bull doze over everyone and become everyone's leader/boss. 

The same would go for a alpha woman. 


JCD said:


> He stated she HAS to be the leader.


11]She leads and expects everyone to follow.

Being a leader does not mean that a person goes in, shoves everyone else aside and takes over everything.

In a marriage the two spouses have different talents and skills. Neither needs to be THE ONE leader. They can be a team that leads the family, each with their own sphere of influence. 

For example my husband took care of all the computer networking in our house. Could I have done it sure. But he wanted to and he got that. He would tell me his plans, I gave a bit of input, but he’s good at it so I trusted him to do it.

He designed the backyard landscaping, deck, etc. Again I did not interfere. He was the leader there.

He hates doing the books and running family finances. So I’ve always done that. I just tell him how much we have and where it goes. He does not bug me. I’m very open and honest about it so he trusts me to do this.

When I bought a new car he came with me. We both looked at the cars, discussed them. But in the end I made the final decision. It was my car and he felt I need to be the one to pick it out. When he got this truck he picked it out though I went along in the same manner.


JCD said:


> She DOESN'T need other people's recognition or affirmation.


 “7] Enjoys recognition but doesn’t need approval from peers. “

It does not mean that she would not want the approval of her husband and family. It means that she is not going cave into peer-pressure.



JCD said:


> Won't depend on others fiscally.


10]Fiercely independent – not looking for a man to take care of her, she takes care of herself.

Is there something wrong with not depending on someone else fiscally? I always hear men complaining about gold digging women, wives who just want their money. But now when there is a woman who is fiscally independent that’s wrong too?

I’m 63 and have never in my life depended on a man financially. Why? Because I’ve been married 3 times and not one of them would or could. My first husband suffered an inter-cranial aneurysm on our first wedding anniversary. He could not work after that so I had to support him. My second husband was making the same as I did when we married but then quit his job and went to medical school. So I supported us through medical school and residency. A month after residency he announced that he wanted a divorce. So I never got to be that doc’s wife who was well taken care of.

When I married my 3rd husband in 2000 he made some more than I did. But in 2002 he was laid off from his job. He never did get another job; just became a gamer and lives in front of his PC. So I was the sole income earner in our household supporting him, his two children and my son.

So I’d say it’s a dam good thing I was not looking for a man to take care of me. Actually the reason that I became more of an alpha female is because I had to. I was not that way at 22 when I married my first husband.

By your way of thinking I should just sit there and expect someone to support me or live in poverty with my children if the man is not going to pull his weight.

I have 4 sisters. When I was a kid my dad used to tell all of us girls to get a good education so that we could always take care of ourselves.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Coffee Amore said:


> :iagree:
> 
> The list as described in the original post describes a woman who HAS to lead, who doesn't care what others think, doesn't make herself vulnerable to others and doesn't need much from another.


"HAS to lead" leadership does not mean that a person comes in and takes over and bosses everyone around.

Doesn't care what others think... would you rather that she give into peer presure and cannot act without worrying about what others think.

Where does it say that she does not make herself vulnerable to others and that she does not need much from others?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Ha,ha!
> 
> That's one of the reasons I didn't want children .
> In the early years she would constantly test my leadership even in the marriage.We used to disagree on everything. MC told us that we both had very dominant traits.
> ...


They disturbed our equilibrium but I think for the better. Having children softened me up (made me less dominant) and made my husband take charge more. 

We fought at first because he'd become used to me juggling everything with ease and suddenly I couldn't. I had to learn how to rely on him and that wasn't an easy task but one that was worth learning.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> So basically agree that most of these traits called
> " Alpha Female" are actually GOOD traits.
> They are desirable traits that any female should aspire to, and that they can actually complement her nurturing characteristics etc.
> 
> ...


Because some men, just like some women, misunderstand what the alpha traits mean. Some do not understand what leading means. 
When it says a person is a leader it does not meant that only their word holds or that they have to be in charge of everything. But some men think it does. Some think that if their wife expects a voice in things than she is challenging his leadership. 


Caribbean Man said:


> My argument is that if a man is a stupid jerk, he is a stupid jerk whether he has Alpha traits or not.


Totally agree. 


Caribbean Man said:


> The same argument holds for a woman who is a conniving b!tch. Having Alpha traits does not change her into anything admirable of likeable, she will still be a conniving b!tch.





Caribbean Man said:


> Should a man feel insecure if his wife decides she wants to add some of those traits on that list to improve her personality where she thinks its lacking?
> 
> Should a woman feel upset if her husband decides he wants to add some of those traits on that list to improve his personality where its lacking?
> 
> ...


Agree…nothing to argue with here.


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## Pandakiss (Oct 29, 2010)

Most people call us a b!tch. I have read the list quite a few times, and it describes me pretty closely. Maybe a few things are off like I don't need to be alone for instance. 

I'm tough and back down from no one or nothing, but I'm strong enough to let my man lead. He likes working, and is happier when he does. 

It takes a strong man to put up with an alpha chick. IMO it takes a alpha male to handle me. My husband is first born and his name means first. We butted heads for the first few years. Still sometimes now. He reminds me he counts and I don't always have to be right. 

In our home neither one is "the" leader. We are king and queen. The king is lost without is queen, and the queen needs a king in her corner. 

I am a control freak, but my husband let me know he will not be treated as such. He told me years ago, we should have been in a different life, because I would be a beast in the boardroom.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

My husband isn't intimidated by me....though some of my friends have told me they were in the past, I've gotten a little sweeter with age. 

I am more aggressive than my husband is... more verbally assertive, more opinionated and harder to please... I realize this sounds awful... .. but here's the thing with us.. and I've always found it rather amusing -beings he is so timid. 

He's always had a thing for AGGRESSIVE WOMEN, even in elementary school, they caught his eye... some of his crushes -hard asses. So being feisty, a little demanding now & then... he can handle me. 

....So long as I am reasonable (which I am), so long as I ain't breaking the bank (I'm cheaper than he is), so long as I don't expect him to do it all (I get out & get my hands dirty with him, digging ditches, lay cement, etc)... then he is a happy camper & we get things accomplished...to better our lives. 

He goes to work every day, he Supports us financially... He feels this is his place, this is a part of being a man, I know if my husband lost his job, he would feel terrible, and it would plummet his self esteem, that is just a part of him, you can't separate it... he expects that of himself and I LOVE & respect him for feeling so strongly in this way. 

I do not feel he is insecure by admitting (which he has -as I have asked).... he enjoys that I lean on him and "need" him... which I feel I do -in the emotional , in the sexual, in the financial, hell, even in the spiritual - I love the man, I don't think it is a slice to his character for him to FEEL that way. Frankly , I think that is one of the problems today in many marriages, NOONE seems to need each other any more...everyone is Mr & Mrs Independent. 

I love the fact he "needs" and wants me too!

And although I have a rough side to me.... I have a very very sensitive side that makes up for it. He is turned on by the one and is comforted and loved by the other.. He is my steel and I am the magnet. 

We are a team.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> "HAS to lead" leadership does not mean that a person comes in and takes over and bosses everyone around.
> 
> Doesn't care what others think... would you rather that she give into peer presure and cannot act without worrying about what others think.
> 
> *Where does it say that she does not make herself vulnerable to others and that she does not need much from others?*


Where does it say she DOES make herself vulnerable? Where does it say she DOES need others (aside from having to lead them)? The point some of us are trying to make is that the list AS WRITTEN, with ONLY these qualities, is not a very attractive person, TO US. Yes, some possess the more attractive traits such as nurturing, loving, etc. But listing ONLY the traits in OP... no, she isn't attractive with JUST those traits. She needs something to balance that out. But that's JMO.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Where does it say she DOES make herself vulnerable? Where does it say she DOES need others (aside from having to lead them)? The point some of us are trying to make is that the list AS WRITTEN, with ONLY these qualities, is not a very attractive person, TO US.


I am going by what CM posted. On I think the second page he stated:




Caribbean Man said:


> I left out those " qualities" for a specific reason
> 
> Those qualities are generally attributed to women. Women are expected to be like that.
> 
> ...


So we can assume that she also is vulnerable when appropriate, and nuturing, etc.




Maricha75 said:


> Yes, some possess the more attractive traits such as nurturing, loving, etc. But listing ONLY the traits in OP... no, she isn't attractive with JUST those traits. She needs something to balance that out. But that's JMO.



I agree that anyone, male or female, with ONLY those traits is a very unbalanced person and not attractive. 

But CM stated that those were in addition to other traits normally attributed to women.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> .....had these type of traits?
> 
> 1]Task focused. Single minded.
> 2]Determined, bold, and a competitive high achiever.
> ...


This was originally written toward Ele, but it got a lot broader.

CM started this list and around the 20 mark, I think he realized his traits sounded strongly of a female sociopath...so he started chucking in '...whom she loves.' At the end of all his comments which is sort of contradicted by the first bunch of traits which describes a person who does NOT need love (emotionally self sufficient anyone?). So her love is a gift which can be recinded at any time when the person isn't following her lead (definition of EVERYONE includes hubby), they start to 'take what is hers' (at least in her opinion) or they start 'crowding' her independence (Note to Ele: self sufficient is NOT the same as *FIERCELY* independent)

By themselves, each single trait is laudable. Do I think a woman who works or is an heiress is 'bad'? Nonsense and a twisting of my intent.

Let us look at an example: The Family Vacation

She wants to go to the seashore. She has a list of valid reasons why this is good. He wants to see the mountains, maybe if for no other reason than she ALWAYS chooses where to go on vacation (that leadership thing said EVERYONE)

Well, she 'gives her opinion' loudly and proudly, ''fights for what is hers' because 'winning is part of her identity'. Hubby is having none of this. What is wrong with him? Doesn't he realize 'Nature created HER to lead her family'? (Note: it doesn't say anywhere that she shares the leadership)

Well, she is 'FIERCELY independent', fiscally independent, 'a risk taker' who 'doesn't care what PEOPLE (including hubby) think of her. She's taking HER kids to the beach!

I am reading what he wrote. When you add 'Emotionally Self Sufficient...*except for hubby*; 'She leads and expects everyone *except hubby* to follow'... well, you're changing what he WROTE but maybe not what he MEANT.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I am going by what CM posted. On I think the second page he stated:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?

FIERCELY independent

Emotionally Self Sufficient

Thrives in Solitude

Vulnerable
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Reminds me of my first actually, and I thought I saw it all, she was strong and stubborn. However, she was always trying to be tough (which she was), and was hardened. I never expected anything else from her, nor did I expect anything in terms of deep emotional vulnerability with my wife when I first met her due to my first.

I had thought something like; "meh, strong women are like that. Some deep warmth underneath all that ice, but for the most part, it's mostly ice."

Then I met my wife, but she didn't need to prove her strength, didn't need to act tough, she simply knows who she is and what she wants. She opens her heart, but if she gets hurt, she licks her wounds and goes on no matter what the world throws at her. She showed me that the "strength" of my first girlfriend was in fact an illusion, the truth was that she just had tough skin, nothing else.

Being strong =/= hardened/tough


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

JCD said:


> This was originally written toward Ele, but it got a lot broader.
> 
> CM started this list and around the 20 mark, I think he realized his traits sounded strongly of a female sociopath...so he started chucking in '...whom she loves.' At the end of all his comments which is sort of contradicted by the first bunch of traits which describes a person who does NOT need love (emotionally self sufficient anyone?). So her love is a gift which can be recinded at any time when the person isn't following her lead (definition of EVERYONE includes hubby), they start to 'take what is hers' (at least in her opinion) or they start 'crowding' her independence (Note to Ele: self sufficient is NOT the same as *FIERCELY* independent)
> 
> ...


The list given is one that is often given for alpha males.

So switching the gender on your couple in the vacation example. Do you really think that is the way an alpha male would handle the vacation? Nope

Leaders are not people who just come force themselves in a dictatorship position. Leaders are poeple who show other direction and facilitate their ability to carry out the task.

CM did clarify later that he meant them to be additional traits. So I'm going with his intent.

Even a man who only had that list of traits would not be a well rounded person or even a good alpha male.

We will have to agree to disagree.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

JCD said:


> One of these things is not like the others,
> One of these things just doesn't belong,
> Can you tell which thing is not like the others
> By the time I finish my song?
> ...


People are not 2D. We are multi facited.

Since that list is often used for Alpha males are you saying that alpha males cannot be vulnerable? caring? loving?


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> The list given is one that is often given for alpha males.
> 
> So switching the gender on your couple in the vacation example. Do you really think that is the way an alpha male would handle the vacation? Nope
> 
> ...


I agree a man with only those traits would have issues too.

When CM adds traits which are not contradictory to his initial set, we can go from there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> "HAS to lead" leadership does not mean that a person comes in and takes over and bosses everyone around.
> 
> Doesn't care what others think... would you rather that she give into peer presure and cannot act without worrying about what others think.
> 
> Where does it say that she does not make herself vulnerable to others and that she does not need much from others?


i disagree. 

As JCD said the original post described a female sociopath rather than a female leader. 

You cannot lead unless you're willing to follow.

Doesn't care about what others think. A smart leader is one who keeps in the good books of his or her followers. These leaders who don't care about what people think, sure, they seem enigmatic but they have no grace, not in defeat and not in victory. Think of Hitler. 

Whereas people who do realize that they have a responsibility to the ones they lead and as such their opinions do matter, now they are the real alphas. They don't walk around taking a lot of space and acting as if they own the place, but when they speak, people listen and follow willingly.

All the traits about being loud and boisterous and bossy, traits of a pretender. So all these superficial alpha male alpha female , they may make you look good at a party. But that's all its ever good for because your only motivation is to look attractive to others.

JMO


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

BjornFree said:


> i disagree.
> 
> As JCD said the original post described a female sociopath rather than a female leader.


So they also describe a male sociopath? Because that same list is used for an example of the traits that men should strive for to be alpha males.

Note that it does not state that those are the only traits that either a man or woman has.



BjornFree said:


> You cannot lead unless you're willing to follow.
> 
> Doesn't care about what others think. A smart leader is one who keeps in …...


Yes, what you gave was a good example of a good leader. So I assume that since she’s a leader she knows all that. She’s not Hitler. Funny because when this list is given as an example of what men should strive for I’ve never seen anyone suggest that this means that man is like Hitler.

What this boils down to is the way people interpret that list. You are reading one thing into it. I read it differently. 

To me not caring what others think means that a person is not swayed by peer pressure. I can give you tons of examples of not giving into peer pressure at work and in my personal life.



BjornFree said:


> All the traits about being loud and boisterous and bossy, traits of a pretender. So all these superficial alpha male alpha female , they may make you look good at a party. But that's all its ever good for because your only motivation is to look attractive to others.


None of the traits listed said anything about being "loud and boisterous and bossy". It’s your interpretation that if a woman is has those qualities she is “loud and boisterous and bossy”

Does a woman have to be "loud and boisterous and bossy" if she’s a leader? Interesting.

And note that CM did say that he assume that normal ‘female’ traits also existed and hence did not include them in the list.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

What is a normal female trait?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

JCD said:


> What is a normal female trait?


I believe that some have been brought up.. nurturing, affectionate

Accoring to this study: Sensitivity, warmth and apprehension 

Men and women have distinct personalities - Telegraph


I'm sure others would have a different list. I don't think that the ones in the OP are un-female. As we have seen on this thread a lot of women have some portion of those traits.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> So they also describe a male sociopath? Because that same list is used for an example of the traits that men should strive for to be alpha males.[?QUOTE]
> 
> It does describe a male sociopath too. No people should strive to be better, not alpha. Alpha as I said is good if you want to get laid. But people hardly realize that there's more to life than putting your penis into a *****. But for young people its of utmost importance and i can't disagree with the fact.
> 
> ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

BjornFree said:


> So you do acknowledge the fact that all these traits are abnormal. Sure, some of these abnormalities are quite interesting and are desirable. But all of them put together and you'd have the abnormalities weighing more than the normal female traits.
> With that I will bow out.


Like many things it depends on interpretation. The way I interpret them they are not abnormal at all. But I think that they are only part of the traits a person might have.

Now the way some people here are interpreting them… such as “loud boisterous and bossy”, well sure those are abnormal and annoying at best. But I don’t see that in them.

So we would pick each one part and show the possible interpretations. Or… I’ll just say that in all things moderation. And that list is not the sum of traits that make up a person Alpha or not.

And me too.. I'm done here for now. Need to shut this computer off and get some sleep.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Actually,
The list is divided into three parts.

The first group of [ 1- 10 ] define what's different between the Alph female and other women.

The second group [ 11 -16 ] deals with the similiarites she shares with Alpha males.

The third group deals with her interactions with her family and home

So basically its three different types of Alpha females.

One person would hardly have all of these traits, some of them are not compatible.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> There are a huge combo of reasons I watch the carwreck of alpha threads from a distance:
> 
> 1:* A whole bunch of evopsych BS. I've discussed this so much elsewhere that when I typed in "evopsych" in the google search bar, "evopsych is BS" popped up. LOL.*
> 
> ...


Are you saying that all the Alpha male discussions on this board are BS?
And if that is what you are saying, what makes this_ Alpha female_ conversation so different and insightful?

If not , then what are your thought about this part of my post you responded to:

*"....Should a woman feel upset if her husband decides he wants to add some of those traits on that list to improve his personality where its lacking?"*

Re; The " man up " and Alpha male discussions on this board?

How do you explain some female's responses to some guy's attempt to improve themselves, or " up the Alpha?"
Why do they always advise the guy to remain " nice and sweet and nurturing " and avoid Alpha traits because they will turn him into an a$$hole?
How can this be true when most females on this thread said that the EXACT , SAME traits are beneficial to women?

If the list of traits can apply to both Alpha male & Alpha females, why do some women insist that it cannot work for men in a marriage?

Can it be that they themselves don't really know what Alpha traits are?
[ But they have identified them on the list, and said that these traits are good for a woman to adopt]

Or can it be that, just like their male counterparts, they feel threatened whenever a former "caring, nurturing" male decides that its time to hold himself and by extension his partner/ wife accountable for their dysfunctional sex life and the
dynamics of their relationship?


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## tiredandout (Jun 1, 2011)

> One person would hardly have all of these traits, some of them are not compatible.


I haven't participated in the conversation much but just to stir the pot, I must comment this as I disagree. Many people have conflicting traits. Many people show different traits in different situations. I identify with almost all of the traits you listed, but it's true they cannot all be present _in the same moment_. Some people are very consistant, but _in my experience_ most show at least some inconsistancies. Many of us take on slightly different roles depending on the situation.

As an example: when in a group others are undecisive or lazy, I'm eager and happy to take the lead and kick their asses into getting things going. If someone else is adamant about taking the lead and I agree with most of their suggestions, I'm happy to just follow and make my voice heard when I so wish or when I think it's needed. If someone else is aggressive about taking the lead but I completely disagree with them I will have to assess the situation whether it's more fruitful for me to step back or fight them for it.

See what I'm getting at?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Point taken.

But like I said, the list represents three different types Alpha Females.
But there are always overlapping areas.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

I disagree. There is a lot of incompatibilities in the list compared to 'normal female traits'.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Describing personalities with a list of short descriptors can only be partly successful for many reasons. First, language itself will limit what you can express and what people interpret. Second, the understanding of personality types is rudimentary at best. Third, the value judgement of the people writing and reading the list will be culturally marked. Etc.

I can say I identify with many of the traits listed by CM & I can say this with complete faith that no one would consider me a sociopath. I can do this because I can interpret what is written in my own way & that is valid. At the same time, the traits represent enough of a commonality of experience to be interesting to anyone who is interested in human nature and how it expresses itself.

Because of the commonality of our experience, I can see myself in many of these traits. At the same time, I'm not strait-jacketed by the language & can apply the traits as they apply to me. Eg.,

- Yes, people who know me would say I am focused and can be single-minded.

- Yes, I can be determined and am a high achiever - definitely not bold.

- Yes, I like to win - but am not a sore loser & have lost often in my life.

- Yes, I am emotionally self-sufficient - given my upbringing, I had to be this way & consider it a detriment.

- No, I am not aggressive & don't pursue power or status.

Etc., etc.

Because of the variability of these things & the way language can be interpreted, CM's list could be construed as describing someone who is dysfunctional and/or unpleasant, but could also just be a general observation about certain features of people's personalities, good and bad.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

alte Dame said:


> Describing personalities with a list of short descriptors can only be partly successful for many reasons. First, language itself will limit what you can express and what people interpret. Second, the understanding of personality types is rudimentary at best. Third, the value judgement of the people writing and reading the list will be culturally marked. Etc.





> Because of the variability of these things & the way language can be interpreted, CM's list could be construed as describing someone who is dysfunctional and/or unpleasant, but could also just be a general observation about certain features of people's personalities, good and bad.


I agree ~ this is why I took the time to give a short little explanation (in red) to how I feel each pertains to *me* ~ in my original post. But even those small explanations can not capture the genuine woman - in every given life experience...this changes depending on the circumstance at hand.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Trenton said:


> *Most of all, I am myself. It's all I got. I can't imagine being anyone else.*
> 
> 
> On TAM I have seen it become something I specifically dislike, an excuse to not work on yourself, a verb that takes you farther from who you are and makes you more like others feel you should be.
> ...


Thank you for posting your thoughts on it.
I really do appreciate.

Regarding the use of the term here on TAM, 
What is important in life is not what people say.
Some people say this today and tomorrow they say something else. People can be fickle, they also change their minds, they are entitled to .
_What's important is what you say._
What you say is a function of your cognitive ability or lack of it.
That's why I absolutely loved point #4 on your list;

*"..4. I am conflicted. I'm never 100% sure I am right but I make a decision and go after it but use reflection to remain open to change...."*

19th century mathematician and philosopher, Bertrand Russell once said:

"..The trouble with the world is that the stupid are c0cksure , but the intelligent are full of doubt.."

PS,
I also appreciate that you made up your very , own list!


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Well,
I must say I am pleasantly surprised that you actually know the truth about Che Guevarra.
Most people think he's was some rockstar who lived in the 60's, or some eccentric , pot smoking rebel without a cause.

The truth be told, Che , his comrades and revolutionary soldiers were responsible for the post colonial,independence concept
that swept Latin America, the Caribbean ,even India and Africa.

He had an IDEA.
His idea was that the wealth of a country belongs to its citizens, and citizens of any country are supposed to determine who they want to run the affairs of their country free from the outside interference of the Empire or " Big Brother."
His IDEA is responsible for free education from early childhood to Tertiary in my country.[ Yep, college and University education is paid for by our Government! Whether you want to pursue locally or in another country]
His IDEA is responsible for our gas prices and electricty rates being the lowest in the Westen hemisphere.
And I can go on and on.

In my mind anyone who can leave such a legacy is definitely the Alpha.
That's why I own quite a few T-Shirts with his face on it.
In a nutshell, from my own Caribbean culturally influenced perspective,
Alpha means to stick to your guns and NEVER BACK DOWN.
And you can only do that if you have an IDEA.

Without the IDEA, you are just a Primadonna, a rebel without a cause or a Don Quixote .
Che Guevarra is where the Alpha shyt gets real.
He actually believed in something and died because of his IDEA.


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## Michie (Aug 26, 2012)

A genuine, real woman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Most of all, I am myself. It's all I got. I can't imagine being anyone else.
> 
> So others have described me a billion different ways.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## southern wife (Jul 22, 2011)

These are my traits:

1]Task focused. Single minded. *I am task driven, but I'm also a muti-tasker! I have to be......I'm a working Mom!  *

2]Determined, bold, and a competitive high achiever. *I am determined and bold when I need to be, but I'm not competitive.*

3]Winning is part of her identity. *It's nice to win, but I don't have to win at everything. My prize is my loved ones and my time with them.*

4]Higher sexual libido. *I'd say my hubs is the higher drive, but mine is very much in existence.  *

*5]Emotionally self sufficient.*

6]More aggressive. Actively pursues power and status.
*A risk taker...........I will take certain risks if it doesn't include hurting myself or my loved ones. I'm aggressive when I need to be.*

*7]Enjoys recognition but doesn’t need approval from peers.*

8]Gets straight to the point without social chat. *I am a woman, so I do love social chat!  *

9]Closer relationship to father than mother. *I'm always a "Mommy's girl", but my relationship with my father has blossomed over the past couple of years....where before there wasn't much emotional connection to him.*

*10]Fiercely independent – not looking for a man to take care of her, she takes care of herself.*

11]She leads and expects everyone to follow. *I lead when I need to, and I follow when I need to. *

12]She doesn’t care what people think of her. *While knowing who I am as a woman, and I generally don't care what others think, I think there's a part of caring in each of us.*

13]Gives her opinions – doesn’t wait to be asked.

*14]Intelligent, well informed, resourceful.*

*15]Not afraid of the unknown,fights for what is hers.*

*16]Honor, integrity, and loyalty.*

*17]Fiercely protective of herself, her family and everyone she loves.*

18]Nature created her to lead her family and community. *I prefer to blend into the family and community and not feel that I have to lead them.*

*19]She is selective about who she invites into her private life.*

*20]She is well prepared for her own survival and for those she loves.*

*21]She won’t allow others take advantage of her or those she loves*

22]The leader in the workplace and in her community. *I'm more of a team player in the workplace and community.*

*23]She’s easy-going and doesn’t throw tantrums, whine, b!tch or nag* I don't whine.............I "wine"! :toast:

*24]She can hold her own in the boardroom, bedroom, or on the street. She commands respect.*

25]Solitude nourishes her. *While I do enjoy time with my loved ones (friends and family), I do enjoy my own time as well. I think people need to find that perfect balance between the two.  *


Hope this helps!


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## SpinDaddy (Nov 12, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> And to the men. Do you know any women with these traits?


This would pretty much be my Wife.



Caribbean Man said:


> And to the men. . . . Are you attracted to them?


Absolutely yes.



Caribbean Man said:


> And to the men. . . . If so why , and if no why?


I’ve just never synched up well with the “girl’s-girl” type of woman either at the 1:1 level or at a romantic level. And I don’t mean femininity but rather strength of character. Strong Women are Sexy. And no, I’m by no means a wuss.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

southern wife said:


> These are my traits:
> 
> 1]Task focused. Single minded. *I am task driven, but I'm also a muti-tasker! I have to be......I'm a working Mom!  *
> 2]Determined, bold, and a competitive high achiever. *I am determined and bold when I need to be, but I'm not competitive.*
> ...


I forgot to add an extra *trait * for you Southern..

#26] Loves fine wines , own a speed boat and loves the beach!

Please forgive my recalcitrance,
Thanks for participating!


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## southern wife (Jul 22, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> I forgot to add an extra *trait * for you Southern..
> 
> #26] Loves fine wines , own a speed boat and loves the beach!
> 
> ...


:smthumbup:

Forgiven!


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> .....had these type of traits?
> 
> 1]Task focused. Single minded.
> 2]Determined, bold
> ...


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

Fictional.


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## southern wife (Jul 22, 2011)

President of the USA!


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

Straight from Pride and Prejudice: "I've never met such a woman. She would certainly be a fearsome thing to behold!"


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## Michie (Aug 26, 2012)

DayDream said:


> Straight from Pride and Prejudice: "I've never met such a woman. She would certainly be a fearsome thing to behold!"


Classic! -claps-
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

DayDream said:


> Straight from Pride and Prejudice: "I've never met such a woman. She would certainly be a fearsome thing to behold!"



Ah,
But she does exist, and has _always_ existed throughout history!

Here are a few famous examples:

Phoolan Devi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hatshepsut - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Marie Curie - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Indira Gandhi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Eugenia Charles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Margaret Thatcher - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

....and there's much more.
They are more common than you think!


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Trenton said:


> Joan of Arc
> Eva Peron
> Catherine the Great
> Jane Austen herself...haha
> ...


Like your list Trenton, that's what I'm talking about!
I highlighted Helen Keller because she is my all time favourite. She was visually impaired, and I think, also deaf. But that didn't stop her.
She broke many records and was the first woman to achieve a lot of what she did despite her physical handicaps.
Her story has inspired me since my youth.

Here's another one of my all time favorites :

Phoolan Devi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you can get your hands on a copy of her biography, I assure you, her story will literally blow your mind!
She accomplished the impossible,what no man in her society could do, she did it.
_Read it, I guarantee you will love it!_

I also think there's a movie about her accomplishments.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Helen Keller was deaf, dumb, and blind until she was taught language by her incredible teacher, after which she was deaf and blind. Her story is indeed inspiring.

These lists, though, are of truly exceptional people, begging the question of how realistic your list of qualities is. I personally think that there are many unsung heroines among us who have different qualities, but are doing the hard work of getting through the day as well and honorably as they can. In this regard, I would mention my own mother as exceptional  - very alpha in the results albeit not necessarily alpha in all of the overt traits.


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> .....had these type of traits?
> 
> 1]Task focused. Single minded.
> 2]Determined, bold, and a competitive high achiever.
> ...



Do you know any women with these traits?

Yes, my mother.

Are you attracted to them?

Yes. The biggest mistake I made in my life was to marry someone who is completely opposite to all these traits. I now realize that my love originated in my ego thinking that I can rescue and fix a broken person.

If so why , and if no why?

Because I am myself like that and birds of same feather flock together.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> Helen Keller was deaf, dumb, and blind until she was taught language by her incredible teacher, after which she was deaf and blind. Her story is indeed inspiring.
> 
> *These lists, though, are of truly exceptional people, begging the question of how realistic your list of qualities is.*
> I personally think that there are many unsung heroines among us who have different qualities, but are doing the hard work of getting through the day as well and honorably as they can. In this regard, I would mention my own mother as exceptional  - very alpha in the results albeit not necessarily alpha in all of the overt traits.


Actually when I made this list, I had a few women who I knew personally, and in my mind,who measured up to at least 10 items on the list!
But the list in by no means exhaustive.
I looked at three feminist type websites and pulled together that list.
The idea really is that the term "Alpha" is gender neutral, and is more than just a label.
It represent the entire spectrum of qualities found in persons who excel in everyday life,in areas such as career, academics, community, home and sport [ I purposely left out those traits in my list]. People who excel , no matter how difficult the situation that confronts them.


And yes there are many, many unsung heroines, who these traits wouldn't fit. But that doesn't make them any less Alpha or leaders in their spheres!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

For many, many years, the women in the world who actually succeeded professionally were described as 'behaving like a man' in order to succeed. I think that in their day, the vast majority of women on your list, as well as many of the greats in all areas, would have been described that way & they would have said that they had to act like men in order to get where they did.

I don't think this is the case today, though, in many cultures. I think many women can succeed very well without either being born or bred to male qualities or adopting them in order to succeed. So, I believe that it's the results that we should be looking at when we talk about achievement. The results are often the same as the results achieved by an alpha male, but are gotten with different strategies or character traits. Many women today achieve alpha-like success without having the typical alpha traits.

This point, however, is not the same as asking about actual alpha descriptors in women. Rather, it goes to the relationship of those traits to actual success, and indeed greatness.

P.S. - Do you like Nietzsche?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> P.S. - *Do you like Nietzsche?*


lol,
I'm afraid to answer THAT question....
Why do you ask?


PS,
I agree totally with the rest of your post.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> lol,
> I'm afraid to answer THAT question....
> Why do you ask?


Because you have a quote from Nietzsche in your footer .


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

And I read him extensively when I was an undergrad....


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

Emerald said:


> "Does she exist?" yes - Hillary Clinton comes to mind.


LOL! Not a chance. This is much closer to Sarah Palin. Far, FAR more so than Hillary Clinton. Hillary can be cowed into doing things. Nobody will EVER do that to Palin. 

There's been a lot of women who have many of those characteristics. Many of them have been figures in history.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> Because you have a quote from Nietzsche in your footer .


Ha,ha!

Ok, seriously though, Bertrand Russell and Albert Camus are my favourites.
I like some of Nietzsche quotes , but he was on the outer fringe of existentialism.
He was a fundamentalist and kind of odd, but I guess most of these guys were " odd" in one way or the other.

Bertrand Russell is my all time favorite because of his views on capitalism and the wage system ,how it affects families and ultimately society.
Two of the best books from him [ IMO ] are;

1]The conquest of happiness
2]Political Ideals.

Simple to read , and very thought provoking!
....................................................................................................
So lemme guess,
You did Psychology?
I did engineering. Most of the reading I did on philosophers and philosophy was on my own initiative.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Ha,ha!
> 
> Ok, seriously though, Bertrand Russell and Albert Camus are my favourites.
> I like some of Nietzsche quotes , but he was on the outer fringe of existentialism.
> ...


I think Nietzsche is one of those people who the experts would look back on and suspect had schizophrenia. I know he had syphilis. Anyway, I thought he was a thinker who created his own parallel universe that was at once self-consistent and alluring, but very definitely wrong. As a reader, I somehow felt I would have to fear for my own sanity if I got too deeply enamored.

(I studied German literature and European history as an undergraduate & theoretical, Germanic, Indo-European linguistics in graduate school.)

I managed to read a lot of philosophy in college just out of curiosity, but find that I don't gravitate to it as an adult - my loss, I'm sure. I read a lot of Chomsky, though .


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I like Bertrand Russell, but am not much for Camus.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I think Nietzsche is one of those people who the experts would look back on and suspect had schizophrenia. I know he had syphilis. *Anyway, I thought he was a thinker who created his own parallel universe that was at once self-consistent and alluring, but very definitely wrong. As a reader, I somehow felt I would have to fear for my own sanity if I got too deeply enamored.*
> 
> .


:iagree:x1000%:rofl:

But it think the final word on the claim that Nietzche had Neurosyphilis is the evidence does not support it.
It was one of those " urban myths."
That he was schizophrenic, the evidence suggests that may have been the case.
Especially during the final years leading up to his death.


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