# In a hard place in my marriage



## SF-FAN

I've been married 8 years, have 3 kids. My wife had an affair 4 years ago and during, absolutely denied something was going on. She played it off as innocent and platonic. Though I had a gut instinct and confronted her about her actions, she denied and even went as far as to say that I should feel like an idiot for thinking that way. It was only after I found out (threw emails) that she could not deny anymore. She begged and we agreed to work things out rather than get a divorce.

Fast forward to present day. For the most part things got better, she was an open book as far as texts, emails, facebook, etc. until about last year. She took the position that she is a grown woman and should be able to have friends guy or girl as long as it's not crossing any boundaries. As such, she has been texting a co-worker a lot since last year that I accused her of having an EA with and of course she denies. It's come in 2 waves. Last year we fought about it heavily to where I thought our marriage was over and then all of a sudden she stopped and our marriage seemed to get better. The texting appears to have started up again since March of this year. Of course I brought it to her attention again and she says it's only a friendship and will never be anything more. Needless to say, I am on guard due to our past and very insecure.

Because of my insecurity and "neediness" we had a huge fight in July. She went to her family and told them how I am so needy but nothing about her actions. Since then things have been cold between us. Another thing I don't like is that she goes to her girlfriend's house in the evenings. With her past, it makes me wonder if she's going somewhere else. I don't have proof that she is having an EA and that she is not going to her friend's house but since things are so cold, I don't know what to do or think.


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## tom67

Show her divorce papers, file. You can always stop it if she comes around jmo. Let her family know what she has done -been doing.


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## Pepper123

She is totally cheating... guarantee you. Why don't you GPS her cell phone or put a VAR in her car if you really want to know.


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## SF-FAN

My reservations with divorce is that it would be hard on my kids. They've expressed to both her and I, recently, that they never want us to divorce. As far as putting a GPS on her phone, I don't know her passcode and do not know what a VAR is. Additionally, if she is indeed cheating, I'd like some concrete evidence to expose her to everyone and make her life a living hell. Without concrete evidence, she will easily manipulate the situation and make me out to be the needy, insecure husband.


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## vi_bride04

I can tell you when my ex started the whole "we should be able to be friends with whoever, male or female since I am sure of my boundaries" it was b/c he was engaging in an EA....

He had a full blown PA 5yrs prior....

You need to dig.


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## Lovemytruck

Look up weightlifter's thread on gathering evidence.


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## SF-FAN

One thing that makes me wonder if she would ever stoop to having sex with someone else again is the fact that we both just got tested for STDs and HIV and were both negative. Since her affair 4 years ago, she's been deathly afraid of having an STD so receiving the recent news that she/we don't and the fact that she is so afraid of getting one makes me wonder if she would do that again. Now the EA is a different story.


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## Rowan

The expression you need to be basing your life on, OP, is "trust but_ verify_". You seem to be operating on a blind trust model, in which you are basically left to wonder what your wife is up to and are supposed to take her word for it that she's not cheating. Again. Clearly, as you're finding out, that's not a plan that's going to work out, long-term. 

I highly recommend that you stop talking to your wife about what you suspect she's up to. Slap a keylogger on her computer, spyware on her phone, and a voice-activated recorder in her car. Find out what she's up to. Decide what you want to do based on facts, rather than on her (already proven to be unreliable) word that you're simply crazy. Once you know what's actually going on, you can choose to accept things as they are, stay and continue working on the marriage, or divorce. 

But most importantly, stop confronting her again and again. Stop fighting. She's aware of what she's doing. She knows you don't like it. And up to this point, she also knows you haven't done much about it. You can't control her. You cannot make her want to be faithful or want to work on the marriage. But you can absolutely control yourself and choose what you will and will not tolerate in your marriage.


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## Rowan

SF-FAN said:


> My reservations with divorce is that it would be hard on my kids. They've expressed to both her and I, recently, that they never want us to divorce.


Divorce would be hard on your kids. Doesn't it suck that _their mother_ doesn't seem to care that her actions are destroying their family?


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## SF-FAN

Rowan said:


> The expression you need to be basing your life on, OP, is "trust but_ verify_". You seem to be operating on a blind trust model, in which you are basically left to wonder what your wife is up to and are supposed to take her word for it that she's not cheating. Again. Clearly, as you're finding out, that's not a plan that's going to work out, long-term.
> 
> I highly recommend that you stop talking to your wife about what you suspect she's up to. Slap a keylogger on her computer, spyware on her phone, and a voice-activated recorder in her car. Find out what she's up to. Decide what you want to do based on facts, rather than on her (already proven to be unreliable) word that you're simply crazy. Once you know what's actually going on, you can choose to accept things as they are, stay and continue working on the marriage, or divorce.
> 
> But most importantly, stop confronting her again and again. Stop fighting. She's aware of what she's doing. She knows you don't like it. And up to this point, she also knows you haven't done much about it. You can't control her. You cannot make her want to be faithful or want to work on the marriage. But you can absolutely control yourself and choose what you will and will not tolerate in your marriage.


As I mentioned above, I'd like to get concrete evidence so that I have proof and not just an assumption. This is where it gets tough. I don't have access to her phone because she has a passcode on it that I don't know. She doesn't use the computer much so a keylogger would likely not do too much good and a VAR may help but my concern is that she'd find it before I could get concrete proof and then make me out to be an insecure a**hole to her family.


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## mahike

It sounds like you really did not address the past A. Did you expose the A at that time to the family? Did you seek MC? 

It sounds like she gets away with claiming you are needy because they do not know about her past A. 

What happened, was it a PA or EA? How long did it last.

At this point I would be doing a little more checking. Her phone and records, VAR in the Car and a keylogger on the computer to see what sites she is going to.

When there has been a past A you need to follow the Regan rule of Trust but Verify.


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## SF-FAN

Rowan said:


> Divorce would be hard on your kids. Doesn't it suck that _their mother_ doesn't seem to care that her actions are destroying their family?


Since in her mind she is not doing nothing wrong, and she does spend quality time with the kids, in her mind she is a great mother. She acknowledges I am a great father as well but am a boring un-social husband.


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## SF-FAN

mahike said:


> It sounds like you really did not address the past A. Did you expose the A at that time to the family? Did you seek MC?
> 
> It sounds like she gets away with claiming you are needy because they do not know about her past A.
> 
> What happened, was it a PA or EA? How long did it last.
> 
> At this point I would be doing a little more checking. Her phone and records, VAR in the Car and a keylogger on the computer to see what sites she is going to.
> 
> When there has been a past A you need to follow the Regan rule of Trust but Verify.


No, I didn't expose the past PA to anyone because her mother and her had just reconciled from a long fight and I figured that if we were going to work things out, having others know may make it harder.

She is currently in counseling and just started and I have gone independently as well.


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## russell28

SF-FAN said:


> I've been married 8 years, have 3 kids. My wife had an affair 4 years ago and during, absolutely denied something was going on. She played it off as innocent and platonic. Though I had a gut instinct and confronted her about her actions, she denied and even went as far as to say that I should feel like an idiot for thinking that way. It was only after I found out (threw emails) that she could not deny anymore. She begged and we agreed to work things out rather than get a divorce.
> 
> Fast forward to present day. For the most part things got better, she was an open book as far as texts, emails, facebook, etc. until about last year. She took the position that she is a grown woman and should be able to have friends guy or girl as long as it's not crossing any boundaries. As such, she has been texting a co-worker a lot since last year that I accused her of having an EA with and of course she denies. It's come in 2 waves. Last year we fought about it heavily to where I thought our marriage was over and then all of a sudden she stopped and our marriage seemed to get better. The texting appears to have started up again since March of this year. Of course I brought it to her attention again and she says it's only a friendship and will never be anything more. Needless to say, I am on guard due to our past and very insecure.
> 
> Because of my insecurity and "neediness" we had a huge fight in July. She went to her family and told them how I am so needy but nothing about her actions. Since then things have been cold between us. Another thing I don't like is that she goes to her girlfriend's house in the evenings. With her past, it makes me wonder if she's going somewhere else. I don't have proof that she is having an EA and that she is not going to her friend's house but since things are so cold, I don't know what to do or think.


Call bull on her 'boundaries' crap.. tell her that if she had any clue about boundaries, she wouldn't be texting this guy at the expense of ruining her marriage. Don't let her lie to you. Now that you're aware, there's no reason to let her play you. Follow your instincts, you are aware that she's cheating, that's different than needy.

I'm guessing her family never found out that she cheated on you the first time.. it sounds like that affair was rug swept and she never really felt too much pain.


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## Healer

SF-FAN said:


> My reservations with divorce is that it would be hard on my kids. They've expressed to both her and I, recently, that they never want us to divorce. As far as putting a GPS on her phone, I don't know her passcode and do not know what a VAR is. Additionally, if she is indeed cheating, I'd like some concrete evidence to expose her to everyone and make her life a living hell. Without concrete evidence, she will easily manipulate the situation and make me out to be the needy, insecure husband.


Of course your kids don't want you to divorce - no kid wants that. But it's also very unhealthy and unfair for your children to live in a home tainted by infidelity - and most likely, ongoing infidelity. It teaches your kids all the wring things about morals, values, vows, relationships and marriage.

I am divorcing my wayward wife. It IS hard on the children. But they need to know that that kind of behavior is unacceptable. I would not want either of my children to stay with an adulterous spouse. It's a from of abuse - terrible abuse. And by staying with your cheating wife, you are showing them that that sort of despicable behavior is acceptable. It is not.


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## hereinthemidwest

SF-FAN said:


> One thing that makes me wonder if she would ever stoop to having sex with someone else again is the fact that we both just got tested for STDs and HIV and were both negative. Since her affair 4 years ago, she's been deathly afraid of having an STD so receiving the recent news that she/we don't and the fact that she is so afraid of getting one makes me wonder if she would do that again. Now the EA is a different story.


:scratchhead: why would you be tested NOW for STD four years later?


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## Healer

And yes, she is still cheating on you. You showed her zero consequences the first time. Why would she stop now? She knows she can get away with it and you'll just grin and nod.


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## Lovemytruck

Here is a mistake I made, I was certain that my exWW would not have sex with another man.

My belief allowed her to continue to cheat for more than a year with a co-worker, and a few months concurrently with my former best friend.

I would think that her fear of an std is a weak arguement you are making with yourself to avoid looking deeper.

Sorry you are in this hard place.


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## russell28

SF-FAN said:


> My reservations with divorce is that it would be hard on my kids. They've expressed to both her and I, recently, that they never want us to divorce. As far as putting a GPS on her phone, I don't know her passcode and do not know what a VAR is. Additionally, if she is indeed cheating, I'd like some concrete evidence to expose her to everyone and make her life a living hell. Without concrete evidence, she will easily manipulate the situation and make me out to be the needy, insecure husband.


If she'd put a passcode on her phone after she was caught cheating, she's cheating... 

Tell her no passcode, or you file for D, because she's cheated on you in the past, and that combined with the fact that she's texting this person and 'going out to her friends' every night, tell you that she needs to re-evaluate exactly what boundaries are, and how they work. You'll need her to cooperate, or be prepared for a divorce. I wouldn't even bother with the VAR. She's not respecting you, period. You're not #1 right now, her passcode is.. and you know why? Because she's hiding something.


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## Shaggy

I'd suggest a var in her car and a GPS there too.


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## SF-FAN

hereinthemidwest said:


> :scratchhead: why would you be tested NOW for STD four years later?


She was tested right after the past PA and had to go back to do a retest which scared the crap out of her. Ultimately it was negative back then but she's always wondered if the lab messed up. Everytime she got sick or had anything out of the ordinary pop up, she wondered if the lab missed something. It is very possible she cheated again more recently with someone else, however now that she found out she/we do not, I wonder if she'd be that stupid to do it again and then have to wonder yet again.


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## russell28

SF-FAN said:


> She was tested right after the past PA and had to go back to do a retest which scared the crap out of her. Ultimately it was negative back then but she's always wondered if the lab messed up. Everytime she got sick or had anything out of the ordinary pop up, she wondered if the lab missed something. It is very possible she cheated again more recently with someone else, however now that she found out she/we do not, I wonder if she'd be that stupid to do it again and then have to wonder yet again.


She might use condoms now, or he told her that he only had sex once with a virgin while riding a unicorn, so he's cleaner than a bleached snowflake...


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## SF-FAN

Yes, I've thought about that as well.


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## SF-FAN

Healer said:


> And yes, she is still cheating on you. You showed her zero consequences the first time. Why would she stop now? She knows she can get away with it and you'll just grin and nod.





Lovemytruck said:


> Here is a mistake I made, I was certain that my exWW would not have sex with another man.
> 
> My belief allowed her to continue to cheat for more than a year with a co-worker, and a few months concurrently with my former best friend.
> 
> I would think that her fear of an std is a weak arguement you are making with yourself to avoid looking deeper.
> 
> Sorry you are in this hard place.





russell28 said:


> If she'd put a passcode on her phone after she was caught cheating, she's cheating...
> 
> Tell her no passcode, or you file for D, because she's cheated on you in the past, and that combined with the fact that she's texting this person and 'going out to her friends' every night, tell you that she needs to re-evaluate exactly what boundaries are, and how they work. You'll need her to cooperate, or be prepared for a divorce. I wouldn't even bother with the VAR. She's not respecting you, period. You're not #1 right now, her passcode is.. and you know why? Because she's hiding something.





russell28 said:


> She might use condoms now, or he told her that he only had sex once with a virgin while riding a unicorn, so he's cleaner than a bleached snowflake...


You all bring up very valid points which are probably dead on. Trust me, she has pushed me to feeling like I am already single anyway so though a divorce would kill me inside, I know I'd survive. That said, I want concrete proof so that I don't look like the insecure husband. You best believe I will expose her for the current EA and the past PA as well.


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## Healer

SF-FAN said:


> You all bring up very valid points which are probably dead on. Trust me, she has pushed me to feeling like I am already single anyway so though a divorce would kill me inside, I know I'd survive. That said, I want concrete proof so that I don't look like the insecure husband. You best believe I will expose her for the current EA and the past PA as well.


Sorry to sound harsh. I was where you are not so long ago. We want the best for you, and sometimes we give tough love.

So sorry you are here. Watch out for yourself and trust your gut. And yes, verify wherever possible. You are eating the same sh*t sandwich most of us here have had to chow down on. It sucks ass, real hard.


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## Disenchanted

It doesn't matter what you do, her family is going to side with her.

You should give up on that pipe dream. Who cares what they think.

My wife cheated, refused to make her phone transparent, that was the end.

She has secrets after cheating? You have nothing to work with. 

Sorry for your kids, mine didn't want us to divorce either, of course.

IMO, total transparency after infidelity or you have got absolutely nothing to work with in your marriage.

Divorce her. It will be better for your kids in the long run.


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## russell28

SF-FAN said:


> You all bring up very valid points which are probably dead on. Trust me, she has pushed me to feeling like I am already single anyway so though a divorce would kill me inside, I know I'd survive. That said, I want concrete proof so that I don't look like the insecure husband. You best believe I will expose her for the current EA and the past PA as well.


My point is that you're not looking like an insecure husband, you look like a husband that's aware of the signs of cheating. You are informed, and intelligent, not insecure. There's a difference. If you already feel single, that's because you never addressed the first affair, so you've been building up resentments. If you need proof, then follow her, put a keylogger on the pc, put a voice activated recorder in her car... etc.. do what you need to do, but the only way to make an R work after an affair, is to have the person that cheats understand what they've done and work to fix it. Your wife doesn't understand and has done nothing to fix it, and now she's back to her old games of having cake and eating it too.

Tell her that if she has nothing to hide, she'll show you her phone otherwise you have to assume there's something on there she's hiding. You're not saying this because you're insecure, you're saying this because you're not a fool.


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## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> It doesn't matter what you do, her family is going to side with her.
> 
> You should give up on that pipe dream. Who cares what they think.
> 
> My wife cheated, refused to make her phone transparent, that was the end.
> 
> She has secrets after cheating? You have nothing to work with.
> 
> Sorry for your kids, mine didn't want us to divorce either, of course.
> 
> IMO, total transparency after infidelity or you have got absolutely nothing to work with in your marriage.
> 
> Divorce her. It will be better for your kids in the long run.


More than likely her family will side with her BUT her and her mom have a love/hate relationship. Her mom feels like I do in that she shouldn't be friends with guys, go out with friends, etc. though she doesn't know the details so her mom would not give her much sympathy and my wife knows that. She keeps a lot from her mom already for that reason.

If she is in fact cheating (as in PA) I'd like concrete proof for me so that there would be no question, that I need to move on.


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## SF-FAN

russell28 said:


> My point is that you're not looking like an insecure husband, you look like a husband that's aware of the signs of cheating. You are informed, and intelligent, not insecure. There's a difference. If you already feel single, that's because you never addressed the first affair, so you've been building up resentments. If you need proof, then follow her, put a keylogger on the pc, put a voice activated recorder in her car... etc.. do what you need to do, but the only way to make an R work after an affair, is to have the person that cheats understand what they've done and work to fix it. Your wife doesn't understand and has done nothing to fix it, and now she's back to her old games of having cake and eating it too.
> 
> Tell her that if she has nothing to hide, she'll show you her phone otherwise you have to assume there's something on there she's hiding. You're not saying this because you're insecure, you're saying this because you're not a fool.


And that's what's funny. After the past PA, she was very transparent. Let me also clarify, she is transparent now but only with certain things. I have access to her emails, I can check internet history, etc. but not her phone or facebook. Her excuse is that she needs to have her own space. :rofl:


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## Disenchanted

SF-FAN said:


> More than likely her family will side with her BUT her and her mom have a love/hate relationship. Her mom feels like I do in that she shouldn't be friends with guys, go out with friends, etc. though she doesn't know the details so her mom would not give her much sympathy and my wife knows that. She keeps a lot from her mom already for that reason.
> 
> If she is in fact cheating (as in PA) I'd like concrete proof for me so that there would be no question, that I need to move on.


As much as I would like to see my ex lying face down in a ditch sometimes, I would not have interest in taking her own damned mother from her.

I can not understand how you as a man can continue on with a woman that admitted to physically cheating on you and yet allow her to have secrets in the marriage (locked cell phone).

I'd be taking a sledge hammer to that god damned phone. But then that would have happened years ago.

You have a very high tolerance for pain apparently.


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## Disenchanted

SF-FAN said:


> And that's what's funny. After the past PA, she was very transparent. Let me also clarify, she is transparent now but only with certain things. I have access to her emails, I can check internet history, etc. but not her phone or facebook. Her excuse is that she needs to have her own space. :rofl:


Give her all the space in the world.

The only privacy in a marriage is when the bathroom door is closed.


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## Healer

SF-FAN said:


> And that's what's funny. After the past PA, she was very transparent. Let me also clarify, she is transparent now but only with certain things. I have access to her emails, I can check internet history, etc. but not her phone or facebook. Her excuse is that she needs to have her own space. :rofl:


Right - her own space...to have sex with someone - who isn't you.


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## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> As much as I would like to see my ex lying face down in a ditch sometimes, I would not have interest in taking her own damned mother from her.
> 
> I can not understand how you as a man can continue on with a woman that admitted to physically cheating on you and yet allow her to have secrtets in the marriage (locked cell phone).
> 
> I'd be taking a sledge hammer to that god damned phone. But then that would have happened years ago.
> 
> You have a very high tolerance for pain apparently.


Unfortunately you are right about me having a high tolerance for pain along with being dumb. BUT another driving force is that I cannot bare the thought of not seeing my kids daily and just having them on weekends or whatever so that's why I've not put my foot down yet.


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## Philat

"Insecure," "Controlling," "Just Friends".... How many of us who are victims of spouse's A, especially EA, have heard those words? My WW had a long-term EA (at least), and for a long time after DDay we had repeated dust-ups over her unwillingness to share phone and email contents (I managed to get in anyway, fortunately found nothing). What I FINALLY managed to get through to her was "Look, you've admitted to this affair and the desire to repair the damage it's done. Yet you are behaving the same way you did when the A was going on. How do you expect to rebuild trust that way?" She thought that the passage of time by itself would lead to rebuilt trust. I was fortunate in that she was sincere about R, just slow on the uptake about what it would take. Maybe SF-FAN's W isn't at that same place. however.


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## jnj express

lets start like this---HOW MANY WIVES AND MOTHERS GO TO THEIR GF HOUSE AND SPEND NIGHT AFTER NIGHT AWAY FROM THEIR H AND KIDS

Given your wifes past---and her penchant for lying and continuing to lie even when faced with the truth----what more do you need

She has a known record for a PA---and you allow her to talk to other men----If there were some boundaries with CONSEQUENCES---the texting and spending time at her GF's house WOULD NOT BE HAPPENEING

Stop looking for more proof---instead if you intend to TRY and keep this mge afloat----YOU DEMAND SHE ACT LIKE A WIFE AND MOTHER---she spends her time with her family-----AND SHE DOES NOT TALK TO OTHER MEN, in any way shape or form---------If she refuses these boundaries---D needs to go on the table---YESTERDAY

Stop using the kids as an excuse for INACTION-------they will be way better off, out of this mess of a homelife---that you describe----and they do not get a say, in the matter---you are a grown adult----own up, and decide , on what is best for you and your future!!!!!!!


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## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> Give her all the space in the world.
> 
> The only privacy in a marriage is when the bathroom door is closed.


Unfortunately she is the type that feels she is an independent woman that does not need to listen to any one even her husband. If I told her that there is no privacy in marriage, she'd be the one serving me with divorce papers.


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## tom67

SF-FAN said:


> Unfortunately she is the type that feels she is an independent woman that does not need to listen to any one even her husband. If I told her that there is no privacy in marriage, she'd be the one serving me with divorce papers.


You know what you have to do then file first.


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## Disenchanted

SF-FAN said:


> driving force is that I cannot bare the thought of not seeing my kids daily and just having them on weekends or whatever so that's why I've not put my foot down yet.



Believe me I hear you. You can read my thread when you have a spare month or two. (My wife has completely destroyed me, in my signature).

People had to literally pound me upside the head on this forum for months to get me to finally give up on my marriage. That was the most painful few months of my life, more pain then I ever thought imaginable.

I never did bring myself to file D on her, she had to do it. I couldn't bear to break up my family. But what I did do was pull the 180 on her and emotionally detach from her, which kept me alive while I watched the destruction of my family unit. Had it not been for that I would've more than likely killed myself.

She left a year ago and to be honest, I don't miss her at all. I'm glad she's gone.

It was really hard to get here though.


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## Healer

SF-FAN said:


> Unfortunately she is the type that feels she is an independent woman that does not need to listen to any one even her husband. If I told her that there is no privacy in marriage, she'd be the one serving me with divorce papers.


Well there you go. Let her do the filing.


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## Disenchanted

SF-FAN said:


> Unfortunately she is the type that feels she is an independent woman that does not need to listen to any one even her husband. If I told her that there is no privacy in marriage, *she'd be the one serving me with divorce papers.*


Go read my thread.

If she wants "space" and shows you no remorse you're going to find out very quickly when you turn the screws on her just how much she loves you. Just how important you are to her.

If you want to turn her attraction around for you the only way you will ever have even a 0.01% chance of doing it is by manning up.

Kick her ass out.


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## SF-FAN

jnj express said:


> lets start like this---HOW MANY WIVES AND MOTHERS GO TO THEIR GF HOUSE AND SPEND NIGHT AFTER NIGHT AWAY FROM THEIR H AND KIDS
> 
> Given your wifes past---and her penchant for lying and continuing to lie even when faced with the truth----what more do you need
> 
> She has a known record for a PA---and you allow her to talk to other men----If there were some boundaries with CONSEQUENCES---the texting and spending time at her GF's house WOULD NOT BE HAPPENEING
> 
> Stop looking for more proof---instead if you intend to TRY and keep this mge afloat----YOU DEMAND SHE ACT LIKE A WIFE AND MOTHER---she spends her time with her family-----AND SHE DOES NOT TALK TO OTHER MEN, in any way shape or form---------If she refuses these boundaries---D needs to go on the table---YESTERDAY
> 
> Stop using the kids as an excuse for INACTION-------they will be way better off, out of this mess of a homelife---that you describe----and they do not get a say, in the matter---you are a grown adult----own up, and decide , on what is best for you and your future!!!!!!!


Very well said, exactly how I feel so how do I even bring it up? If I even mention the past PA she storms out of the room and says "you promised you'd never throw that in my face again!"


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## Healer

Disenchanted said:


> Believe me I hear you. You can read my thread when you have a spare month or two. (My wife has completely destroyed me, in my signature).
> 
> People had to literally pound me upside the head on this forum for months to get me to finally give up on my marriage. That was the most painful few months of my life, more pain then I ever thought imaginable.
> 
> I never did bring myself to file D on her, she had to do it. I couldn't bear to break up my family. But what I did do was pull the 180 on her and emotionally detach from her, which kept me alive while I watched the destruction of my family unit. Had it not been for that I would've more than likely killed myself.
> 
> She left a year ago and to be honest, I don't miss her at all. I'm glad she's gone.
> 
> It was really hard to get here though.


I'm glad you're here, and if there's one thing you should thank her for - it's filing those papers.


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## Dad&Hubby

SF-FAN said:


> She was tested right after the past PA and had to go back to do a retest which scared the crap out of her. Ultimately it was negative back then but she's always wondered if the lab messed up. Everytime she got sick or had anything out of the ordinary pop up, she wondered if the lab missed something. It is very possible she cheated again more recently with someone else, however now that she found out she/we do not, I wonder if she'd be that stupid to do it again and then have to wonder yet again.


I'm not going to speculate but a couple things jump out at me.

1. This behavior is ODD. If an affair happened 4 years ago AND she was tested TWICE afterward...her paranoia makes ZERO sense.

2. Passcode on the phone that you don't have? Screams for "independence". Thinks you're boring.

You have reason to question her.


----------



## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> Believe me I hear you. You can read my thread when you have a spare month or two. (My wife has completely destroyed me, in my signature).
> 
> People had to literally pound me upside the head on this forum for months to get me to finally give up on my marriage. That was the most painful few months of my life, more pain then I ever thought imaginable.
> 
> I never did bring myself to file D on her, she had to do it. I couldn't bear to break up my family. But what I did do was pull the 180 on her and emotionally detach from her, which kept me alive while I watched the destruction of my family unit. Had it not been for that I would've more than likely killed myself.
> 
> She left a year ago and to be honest, I don't miss her at all. I'm glad she's gone.
> 
> It was really hard to get here though.


I am going to read your thread ASAP. I am also trying to detach myself from her now. I don't ask for affection anymore and don't give it. She does show some but not like before. In my mind I am already thinking about where to live post divorce, the arrangements, etc.


----------



## SF-FAN

Dad&Hubby said:


> I'm not going to speculate but a couple things jump out at me.
> 
> 1. This behavior is ODD. If an affair happened 4 years ago AND she was tested TWICE afterward...her paranoia makes ZERO sense.
> 
> 2. Passcode on the phone that you don't have? Screams for "independence". Thinks you're boring.
> 
> You have reason to question her.


I have every right to question her but she thinks I am insecure for doing so. When I used to ask for affection and to spend time, she called me needy.


----------



## missthelove2013

Tell her you want full transparensy NOW...unlock the phone and computer, hand them over RIGHT NOW or its over

telling her you want passcodes, she will just clean up her electronics and find alternate ways to communicate

be prepared to follow through and file if she refuses imo

if you file, let everyone know why...she had an affair and is now having another one


----------



## CH

SF-FAN said:


> Unfortunately she is the type that feels she is an independent woman that does not need to listen to any one even her husband. If I told her that there is no privacy in marriage, she'd be the one serving me with divorce papers.


Well then, I guess you know where she stands in this marriage. Now are you willing to rug sweep it to keep the peace and your so called marriage. Or are you willing to set up boundaries that will keep you sane and stick to those boundaries?

If all you're going to do is complain and whine but do nothing about it then there's not much anyone can do to help you. If you need her to open up her phone and facebook, she needs to do it, end of discussion. You already know what's going on but the thought of divorce and how it affects the kids is making you a doormat and SHE KNOWS IT. It's her ace up her sleeve, the win all card and you back down from it everytime.

The worse part about it is, you know what's happening and you're just sitting back and letting her throw the threat of breaking up the family keep you in line like a poor sap.

Either do something about it or suck it up and just take the punishment.

If you let me punch you in the face everyday and don't say anything, hell I'm going to keep punching you in the face. Why not, you're just going to take it.


----------



## SF-FAN

Oh, another stupid hang up I have that I can't seem to shake is the fact that my wife is very attractive. She gets attention everywhere we go so like a stupid man, I feel I will not be able to get anyone like her again AND I can't bare the thought of another man with her.


----------



## Truthseeker1

SF-FAN said:


> Oh, another stupid hang up I have that I can't seem to shake is the fact that my wife is very attractive. She gets attention everywhere we go so like a stupid man, I feel I will not be able to get anyone like her again AND I can't bare the thought of another man with her.


Newsflash: She's a cheater..I don't care how hot she is...she is ugly on the inside..beauty fades - character is forever my man...


----------



## mahike

You have to be willing to lose your marriage to be able to save it. It is a hard and fast rule. You need to decide

1 Stay married and she will f other men with out you knowing about it
2 Divorce her and have to deal with other men having her but you know where you stand and have self respect.

Anytime a man has been willing to throw his wife out the door or Divorce her she wants him more now then ever before. 

You need to be an Alpha


----------



## Disenchanted

SF-FAN said:


> Oh, another stupid hang up I have that I can't seem to shake is the fact that my wife is very attractive. She gets attention everywhere we go so like a stupid man, I feel I will not be able to get anyone like her again AND I can't bare the thought of another man with her.


OMFG go read my thread, lol.

Hey if it's any consolation, I had a fling with a women who was much hotter then my wife and half her age shortly after we separated.

You'll get there. Eventually.

Sounds like your wife is checked out of the marriage just like mine was and once you puts the screws to her she's gonna bail.

Sorry you are here, I really am.


----------



## anchorwatch

SF-FAN said:


> If she is in fact cheating (as in PA) I'd like concrete proof for me so that there would be no question, that I need to move on.


If you want proof then put a GPS tracker and VAR (digital voice activated recorder)in her car, until you find something. Put one in the home where she might use the phone too. Can't gain access to her phone records or phone? Hire a PI. 

Personally her disrespect would be enough for me. If she wants independence, I'd give her that wish. If she's not happy with me and my marriage boundaries, she can leave. I have no problem replacing her with someone who will respect me and those boundaries. 

Here's what one member did...
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/27426-what-ive-learned-past-year-good-news-story.html

Here's something you need to read for yourself... 
No More Mr Nice Guy
Then make a plan to get what you want out of life and the relationships to go with that life...

Take the quiz, see where you stand. 
Nice Guy Quiz


----------



## SF-FAN

Getting advice on this website definitely helps because I don't have anyone to talk about it with. I definitely do not want to continue to be a doormat, I want someone that will love me and only want to be with me. The kicker is that when I ask why she is not affectionate, she tells me I need to find a girl that will be all over me because it seems like that is what I want and she is not like that.


----------



## turnera

SF-FAN said:


> She went to her family and told them how I am so needy but nothing about her actions. Since then things have been cold between us.


That's because you didn't TELL her parents that she cheated on you.

Ready to now?


----------



## tom67

anchorwatch said:


> If you want proof then put a GPS tracker and VAR (digital voice activated recorder)in her car, until you find something. Put one in the home where she might use the phone too. Can't access to her phone records or phone? Hire a PI.
> 
> Personally her disrespect would be enough for me. If she wants independence, I'd give her that wish. If she's not happy with me and my marriage boundaries, she can leave. I have no problem replacing her with someone who will respect me and those boundaries.
> 
> Here's what one member did...
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/27426-what-ive-learned-past-year-good-news-story.html
> 
> Here's something you need to read for yourself...
> No More Mr Nice Guy
> 
> Take the quiz, see where you stand.
> Nice Guy Quiz


Read these asap.


----------



## Disenchanted

You can and will do better.

Are you married to my ex's sister or something?


----------



## Truthseeker1

SF-FAN said:


> Getting advice on this website definitely helps because I don't have anyone to talk about it with. I definitely do not want to continue to be a doormat, I want someone that will love me and only want to be with me. The kicker is that when I ask why she is not affectionate, she tells me I need to find a girl that will be all over me because it seems like that is what I want and she is not like that.


Time to knock your wifes ego down a few notches...she sounds like a real piece of work...


----------



## Philat

SF-FAN said:


> Unfortunately she is the type that feels she is an independent woman that does not need to listen to any one even her husband. If I told her that there is no privacy in marriage, she'd be the one serving me with divorce papers.


It's not that there's no privacy in marriage, it's that there's no secrecy. If she doesn't see the difference between the two, especially after an admitted PA that she begged to be forgiven for, then you are justified in considering your other options.


----------



## turnera

SF-FAN said:


> Oh, another stupid hang up I have that I can't seem to shake is the fact that my wife is very attractive. She gets attention everywhere we go so like a stupid man, I feel I will not be able to get anyone like her again AND I can't bare the thought of another man with her.


 Have you figured out yet that a beautiful woman on the outside doesn't equal a beautiful woman on the inside? I never understood why men place such a high value on looks, when the woman has little to no control over that; it's just superficial.

You GOT the beautiful woman and look what it's gotten you.


----------



## turnera

SF-FAN said:


> Unfortunately you are right about me having a high tolerance for pain along with being dumb. BUT another driving force is that I cannot bare the thought of not seeing my kids daily and just having them on weekends or whatever so that's why I've not put my foot down yet.


 File for joint custody, 50/50.


----------



## Rowan

SF-FAN said:


> Getting advice on this website definitely helps because I don't have anyone to talk about it with. I definitely do not want to continue to be a doormat, I want someone that will love me and only want to be with me. The kicker is that when I ask why she is not affectionate, she tells me I need to find a girl that will be all over me because it seems like that is what I want and she is not like that.


Sorry, but she_ is _like that. Just.....not with you.

Look, no matter how hot she may be, she's a liar and a cheater. She has no problems exposing you to STD's. She has no problems showing you blatant disrespect. She has no problems lying to you, betraying you, or risking the stability of her children's lives. No matter how hot she is, that's not someone you want to find another one like.


----------



## carolinadreams

You married the wrong woman, don't feel bad it happens everyday. All her actions show that her primary concern is not the marriage's needs but her own needs. 

From this end your posts sound very passive, and like you are searching for someone to tell you that you can get a change in your marriage without confrontation, pain or exertion. *That is a fantasy*. People are very "Newtonian" they like to keep doing what they are doing unless acted on by a force. Your wife likes texting with this man, and will continue to do so because everything indicates you are willing to complain to her about it but aren't willing to do anything with adequate force to change her behaviour. 

What can you do? File for divorce, filing and divorce are two different things. But it tells her that you proceeding in the marriage is contingent upon her being a partner, maybe she can and will or maybe she won't.

You said


> "Unfortunately she is the type that feels she is an independent woman that does not need to listen to any one even her husband."


That type is called "single woman" or even in this context "narcissist" not "wife".

Ultimately you have to decide if you are willing to endure some temporary pain in order to be treated with decency and establish a mutually honest relationship, or if you can swallow a one-sided marriage of disrespect, doubt, and pain - "for the kids".


----------



## Healer

SF-FAN said:


> Oh, another stupid hang up I have that I can't seem to shake is the fact that my wife is very attractive. She gets attention everywhere we go so like a stupid man, I feel I will not be able to get anyone like her again AND I can't bare the thought of another man with her.


These are 2 of the many difficult things you are going to HAVE to get over. She's already been with another (other) man/men.

And beautiful women are a dime a dozen. Faithful ones...not so sure about that.


----------



## Silvr Surfer

Must agree on standing up for yourself. This is a clear cut case of her steamrolling you because you are not assertive enough.


----------



## CH

SF-FAN said:


> The kicker is that when I ask why she is not affectionate, she tells me I need to find a girl that will be all over me because it seems like that is what I want and she is not like that.


Only to you buddy, only to you. To the OM, she's all over him like white on rice. 

What she says to you:
I don't like that
I don't want to do that
ewe that's disgusting.

But when it comes to the OM
Oh yes baby, do it.
I'm game, willing to try new things out.
Oh, I never knew we could do that?
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

No/red light for the husband, go/green light for the OM.

BS line to tell you that she's not attracted to you anymore.

You know what the worst part is, when I was cheating I didn't really want to sleep with my wife towards the end there. It felt like I was cheating on my AP, WTF....Sick isn't it.


----------



## turnera

Read the books Anchorwatch showed you. ASAP.


----------



## Lovemytruck

turnera said:


> Have you figured out yet that a beautiful woman on the outside doesn't equal a beautiful woman on the inside? I never understood why men place such a high value on looks, when the woman has little to no control over that; it's just superficial.
> 
> You GOT the beautiful woman and look what it's gotten you.


Very true. :iagree:

That is often what happens when we marry young, or for the wrong reasons.

I used to say that I would only marry a beautiful woman, because I only would date beautiful women.

25 years later, and married for the second time, my goal was for a heart of gold. Luckily the "Heart of gold" is more "beautiful" than the exWW inside and out.

Ever wonder if the prettiest girls are also the most likely to cheat? I am sure it is not always the case, but there just might be something to that sex rank stuff. LOL!

Beautiful people often are not the ones that have the best "looks", BTW.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Lovemytruck said:


> Very true. :iagree:
> 
> That is often what happens when we marry young, or for the wrong reasons.
> 
> I used to say that I would only marry a beautiful woman, because I only would date beautiful women.
> 
> 25 years later, and married for the second time, my goal was for a heart of gold. Luckily the "Heart of gold" is more "beautiful" than the exWW inside and out.
> 
> Ever wonder if the prettiest girls are also the most likely to cheat? I am sure it is not always the case, but there just might be something to that sex rank stuff. LOL!
> 
> Beautiful people often are not the ones that have the best "looks", BTW.


:iagree::iagree: How about marrying a woman who is attractive and a good person....your wife's good looks are meaningless if she disrespects you and treats you like garbage...she sounds like she knows she is hot and uses it like a weapon...time to find a good woman...


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## alte Dame

Stop the hand-wringing, go out and buy a VAR and get it planted in her car or wherever you know she will talk privately. Search here for the member weightlifter and call up his posts. There will be explicit instructions in his posts on what VAR to buy and what to do with it.

Stop vacillating and start acting. If you want evidence, go get it. No excuses like 'she might find the VAR.' First, it's really, really rare that they do if you do it properly & second, so what if she finds it? What's she going to do? Have you dragged off in chains because you were in the process of busting her cheating?

Stop navel-gazing and get going with the VAR.


----------



## anchorwatch

SF-FAN said:


> Unfortunately you are right about me having a high tolerance for pain along with being dumb. BUT another driving force is that I cannot bare the thought of not seeing my kids daily and just having them on weekends or whatever so that's why I've not put my foot down yet.


You're not dumb. You're a good man who wants the best for himself and his family. You put your needs aside for theirs. You give of yourself unconditionally and expect others to do so in return. You think this behavior makes you look strong. It doesn't, it makes you look weak. You just don't know that it doesn't work this way. 

Others take great advantage of your behavior by getting their needs fulfilled at your expense. They do it consciously and unconsciously. They do it because you allow them to. You teach them that your need can come last. That's how your wife loss respect for you and why she treats you this way. 

Read the links I gave you. 

ttyl


----------



## Lovemytruck

alte Dame said:


> Stop navel-gazing and get going with the VAR.


LMAO!!

alte Dame might have made the post of the day!

In all seriousness, she nailed it.

"The only thing to fear, is fear itself." -one of our presidents


----------



## turnera

Lovemytruck said:


> Ever wonder if the prettiest girls are also the most likely to cheat? I am sure it is not always the case, but there just might be something to that sex rank stuff. LOL!


When my DD23 was about 13, I started talking to her about not seeking out the best-looking guy to hit on. Why, she'd ask. I'd reply that often, someone who is born with exceptional looks will figure out that they don't have to work as hard to get what they want, will grow to believe they are better than those mere mortals who look like the rest of us, that it's their right to use and abuse people since, after all, they're one of the pretty ones. Conversely, those who aren't born with great looks are likely to have experienced more hardship, been turned down, have a healthier ego, and maybe even respect other people more and look for the good things in people rather than the superficial.

Now, she's pretty gorgeous, but she rarely goes for the hot guys for this very reason. She's tried them out, of course, and nearly every single hot guy she's dated has turned out to be a jerk. Self-absorbed, egotistical, expecting her to dote on him. She hasn't got time for people like that, lol.


----------



## MrK

Why haven't you ever driven by the friends house to see if she is there? And just because her car is there, doesn't mean she is.

I can't believe this has gone a full 5 pages and nobody has recommended a PI. He'll have all the proof you need in a week.


----------



## jnj express

Your right there in the cellar with the 49ers and the giants

1st---if you wanna bring up her PA 4 yrs ago---do so, and do it as many times as you need to----A PROPERLY RECONCILING WIFE, WOULD HOLD YOU, TRY TO LESSEN THE PAIN, AND DO WHAT IS NEEDED TO GET YOU THRU YOUR TRIGGERS

This so called good looking wife---is no better than any other woman out there, and probably personality wise---A WHOLE LOT WORSE THAN MOST

Remember one thing---looks are only skin deep---its the whole package, and the rest of this package is full of FLAWS

You will in time get over not being with this so called wonderful looking woman, cuz you will replace her, with another wonderful looking woman----to almost every male here---THEIR WIFE IS WONDERFUL AND AWESOME LOOKING, or they were at the beginning

You wanna stay in this mess----start D proceedings---then you will really see what your hot shot wonderful looking wife is really all about

She will fold her tent, and come crawling back---or she will keep on, as she is, and if she does the latter---why would you want/need to stay with her one more day

You need to call her out---and see where your mge and you REALLY STAND, as far as she is concerned


----------



## harrybrown

If you will not respect yourself, she will never respect you. Stop being a doormat and file for divorce. Maybe she will wake up if you set boundaries and take a stand. If someone cheats on you, they lose their beauty.


----------



## AMRAP

Time to get your evidence. Get keyloggers for your computers. Even if she uses her phone for cheating, all it takes is once for her to use the computer. You will have her FB password and any conversations she had on the computers.

Buy a couple of VARs ASAP. Put one in her car under the driver's seat. Use heavy duty Velcro to secure it. Buy a GPS or get a used iphone and activate "find my phone." place it in her car hidden in the trunk. You will track where she is going. 

Once you know who she's seeing, hire a PI to get the photos of the meetups.


----------



## awake1

If no one's said it read MMSLP and no more mr nice guy. 

180. Just the chit chat, prepare to move on. 

Start working out and eating right. Dump the nachos. 

My friend you should really, really, really, really stop being a doormat.


----------



## karval2012

A new phone as a present could work?
Maybe she's having a birthday anytime soon? Or her phone is outdated? If no, just sink it. Ooops. "I'll get you a new one, darling".
Just preinstall it with some spy app.


----------



## barbados

russell28 said:


> *If she'd put a passcode on her phone after she was caught cheating, she's cheating... *


:iagree:

That's all the proof you need OP. Classic MEGA red flag here. SHe is cheating.... AGAIN !


----------



## barbados

SF-FAN said:


> And that's what's funny. After the past PA, she was very transparent. Let me also clarify, she is transparent now but only with certain things. *I have access to her emails, I can check internet history, etc. but not her phone or facebook. Her excuse is that she needs to have her own space. *:rofl:


She can have all the space she wants after the divorce !


----------



## barbados

SF-FAN said:


> Oh, another stupid hang up I have that I can't seem to shake is the fact that my wife is very attractive. She gets attention everywhere we go so like a stupid man, 1) I feel I will not be able to get anyone like her again AND 2) I can't bare the thought of another man with her.


1) Why the hell would you WANT someone like her again ? Look where it got you this time. Looks are not everything my friend.

2) You have already been living for 4 years with the thought of her with another man, because she WAS with another man. Why the hell would you care once you are divorced ?


----------



## barbados

SF-FAN said:


> Getting advice on this website definitely helps because I don't have anyone to talk about it with. I definitely do not want to continue to be a doormat, I want someone that will love me and only want to be with me. The kicker is that when I ask why she is not affectionate, she tells me I need to find a girl that will be all over me because it seems like that is what I want and s*he is not like that.*


She's not like that WITH YOU ! 

Actually though, she is right. You DO need to be with someone like that.


----------



## SF-FAN

It took me a little while to read all the posts but I know you are all right. I am going to install a keylogger, though I believe most of the evidence is on her phone and see what it comes up with. If I do find something, you can be sure she and the OM will be getting exposed big time.


----------



## anchorwatch

SF-FAN said:


> It took me a little while to read all the posts but I know you are all right. I am going to install a keylogger, though I believe most of the evidence is on her phone and see what it comes up with. If I do find something, you can be sure she and the OM will be getting exposed big time.


Take back your life. You can't see it now, but your family will benefit form it.

Good luck.


----------



## mahike

SF-FAN said:


> It took me a little while to read all the posts but I know you are all right. I am going to install a keylogger, though I believe most of the evidence is on her phone and see what it comes up with. If I do find something, you can be sure she and the OM will be getting exposed big time.


A VAR in a car picks up the most information. If in an A the usually whip out the phone the minute they hit the car. Also a GPS will tell you where she is going and where she is at.


----------



## SF-FAN

What makes it worse is that our schedule is screwed up right now. I work from 8-4 then go to school mon and wed nights until 8. She goes to school all day then works in the evenings on Tues/Thur/Fri and Sat so we don't get any quality time together. AND of course when it's time for bed, she's either doing homework or tired and goes to sleep.


----------



## SF-FAN

mahike said:


> A VAR in a car picks up the most information. If in an A the usually whip out the phone the minute they hit the car. Also a GPS will tell you where she is going and where she is at.


I will look into that as well. She is paranoid right now because she say's I'm nosy and always have to be in her business.


----------



## BK23

What are you in school for? Yesterday you were an "intellectual property attorney".....



SF-FAN said:


> I read some of the beginning part of the thread but no all of it. Taking pictures of an email is NOT copyright infringement. I am an Intellectual Property Attorney and would know. Copyright infringement comes out of getting money or attempting to pass of a work that is not yours. In his case, he is using it for evidence not attempting to sell it as his work of art.


----------



## Shaggy

Have you checked her pay stubs. Are you sure she's actually at work all those evenings?


----------



## LostViking

SF-FAN said:


> I've been married 8 years, have 3 kids. *My wife had an affair 4 years ago and during, absolutely denied something was going on. She played it off as innocent and platonic.* Though I had a gut instinct and confronted her about her actions, she denied and even went as far as to say that I should feel like an idiot for thinking that way. It was only after I found out (threw emails) that she could not deny anymore. *She begged and we agreed to work things out rather than get a divorce.*
> 
> Fast forward to present day. For the most part things got better, she was an open book as far as texts, emails, facebook, etc. until about last year. *She took the position that she is a grown woman and should be able to have friends guy or girl as long as it's not crossing any boundaries*. As such, she has been texting a co-worker a lot since last year that I accused her of having an EA with and of course she denies. It's come in 2 waves. Last year we fought about it heavily to where I thought our marriage was over and then all of a sudden she stopped and our marriage seemed to get better. The texting appears to have started up again since March of this year. Of course I brought it to her attention again and she says it's only a friendship and will never be anything more. Needless to say, I am on guard due to our past and very insecure.
> 
> Because of my insecurity and "neediness" we had a huge fight in July. *She went to her family and told them how I am so needy but nothing about her actions*. Since then things have been cold between us. Another thing I don't like is that she goes to her girlfriend's house in the evenings. With her past, it makes me wonder if she's going somewhere else. I don't have proof that she is having an EA and that she is not going to her friend's house but since things are so cold, I don't know what to do or think.


Do you see the pattern here? 

Your wife denies, denies, denies, and then when you catch her with the evidence she turns around and begs you not to divorce her. 

SF-FAN your wife is a cheater and a liar. She made the promise to you the first time that she would change her ways, got you to rugsweep her affair, placated you, and then once things settled down she started her cheating all over again. 

Yes, you could get a keylogger, you could monitor her texts, have her followed by a PI, try to catch her in the act....but is the cost of all that worth it? 

I assume by your name that you live in California? If so, proving her adultery will get you nowhere in a divorce. Why then would you want to go through all the trouble? 

My position is, after the first affair she made you a promise not to do anything that would ever make you doubt her love for you or her commitment to you. Yet here you are, in doubt and in pain. Whether she is cheating on you or not, she is creating those doubts in you and has even taken the position that you have no right to question her actions. Total sense of entitlement and a blatant disregard for your feelings. No woman who truly loved her husband would be doing these things. 

She broke the agreement. She didn't hold up her side of the bargain. That right there is enough to justify divorcing her.


----------



## carmen ohio

SF-FAN said:


> I've been married 8 years, have 3 kids. My wife had an affair 4 years ago and during, absolutely denied something was going on. She played it off as innocent and platonic. Though I had a gut instinct and confronted her about her actions, she denied and even went as far as to say that I should feel like an idiot for thinking that way. It was only after I found out (threw emails) that she could not deny anymore. She begged and we agreed to work things out rather than get a divorce.
> 
> Fast forward to present day. For the most part things got better, she was an open book as far as texts, emails, facebook, etc. until about last year. She took the position that she is a grown woman and should be able to have friends guy or girl as long as it's not crossing any boundaries. As such, she has been texting a co-worker a lot since last year that I accused her of having an EA with and of course she denies. It's come in 2 waves. Last year we fought about it heavily to where I thought our marriage was over and then all of a sudden she stopped and our marriage seemed to get better. The texting appears to have started up again since March of this year. Of course I brought it to her attention again and she says it's only a friendship and will never be anything more. Needless to say, I am on guard due to our past and very insecure.
> 
> Because of my insecurity and "neediness" we had a huge fight in July. She went to her family and told them how I am so needy but nothing about her actions. Since then things have been cold between us. Another thing I don't like is that she goes to her girlfriend's house in the evenings. With her past, it makes me wonder if she's going somewhere else. I don't have proof that she is having an EA and that she is not going to her friend's house but since things are so cold, I don't know what to do or think.


Dear SF-FAN,

Let's recap what you've told us:

a) Your WW cheated on you four years ago and only admitted to it when you discovered proof.

b) She begged you for another chance in order to avoid your divorcing her.

c) A few years later, she went off the reservation again but stopped when you started acting like your marriage was over.

d) A few months after that, she started up again and, since this time you decided that divorce is no longer an option for you, she has escalated matters to the point that you no longer have access to her phone or FB account and she regularly hangs out at her girl friends house (supposedly).

You said that you are dumb. I don't know if that is true but you certainly seem blind. Can't you see the pattern? Your WW is a cheater. The only thing that prevents her from cheating is fear of divorce. As soon as she feels that threat receding, she starts to cheat again. She doesn't love or respect you. She's even gone so far as to say (in so many words) that, if you want someone to show you love and treat you with respect, you need to find someone else!

Now let's consider why you are reluctant to divorce her:

i) Because it will be hard on your kids -- true, but growing up in a home in which their mother does not show love or respect for their father will not only be hard, it will create perceptions and expectations about relationships that screw them up for life;

ii) Because you may not find another woman who is as attractive -- not necessarily true: you attracted one hot woman, maybe you will find another;

iii) Because you can't bear the thought of her being with another man -- funny answer, given that she's already "been" with another man and probably is with one right now;

iv) Because you don't have sufficient proof that she is cheating again -- foolish answer, as you have more than enough evidence that she is doing things that no wife, and especially not one who has cheated, should be doing; and

v) Because you are afraid that it will show that you are insecure -- paranoid answer: who in his right mind would call not trusting a woman who cheated before and is showing signs that she is cheating again "insecurity"? Most would call it "common sense."

OK, let's cut to the chase and consider your options:

1) If divorce is off the table, get used to the fact that your WW just isn't into you any more and needs another man (or other men) in her life. Learn to live as a cuckold. Some guys actually seem to enjoy it;

2) Put divorce back on the table and tell her that she either stops her shenanigans or you file. If she stops, expose what she's done (all of it) to everyone who would care, demand total access to all of her communications devices and social media accounts, monitor her activities with VARs, keyloggers and GPS devices, demand that she demonstrate by thought word and deed that she can be faithful to you and tell her that, if she ever does anything again to make you doubt her faithfulness, you will divorce her; or

3) Realize that being a cheater is who she is, that reconciling with her will be a long, difficult and ultimately futile process and that giving her more chances will only delay the inevitable and just go ahead and file for D.

Dude, I've seen some weak guys on TAM/CWI but few lately as weak as you seem to be. God gave you not one but two b*lls. Use them.


----------



## Disenchanted

It's true.

I would definitely suggest looking into the Nice Guy literature as well. Before bothering with any other threads.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm

"she'd find it before I could get concrete proof and then make me out to be an insecure a**hole to her family."

You wouldn't have to worry about any of this if you expose the EA and at the same time expose the PA 4 years ago as a reason why you will not chase her down this rabbit hole again.

You are back in this spot OP because you essentially rugswept her previous PA and she never faced a single consequence.

Why didn't you expose the PA when you found out and hold her feet to the fire to make sure this bs never arose again?

I doubt she would be parading around so nonchalant about this EA if her history of cheating was already known to all friends and family.


----------



## illwill

Being nice does not mean you have to be a doormat.You proved you will accept something many men will not. And your wife does not respect you for it.


----------



## russell28

SF-FAN said:


> Unfortunately she is the type that feels she is an independent woman that does not need to listen to any one even her husband. If I told her that there is no privacy in marriage, she'd be the one serving me with divorce papers.


If she's independent, why's she married? If she thinks secrets are okay in a marriage, and that it's okay to be secret friends with guys.... then let her serve you with divorce papers. Her boyfriend will be pissed... he doesn't want a girl that's available, he wants the security of a married woman. If she's single, there's the risk she'll want more.. possibly blow up his marriage or tell his girlfriend. She'll also be paranoid that you'll tell the world why you're divorcing, because she's acting like a tramp not a wife.

Stand up for yourself... stop letting her abuse you. Tell her it's stopping, you're done letting her walk over you. Get her phone or cut it off.. no more girls night out etc... 

Watch how much more attractive you become to her, and how needy she becomes once you tell her you're done playing her games and you're going to find another woman to build a family with.. that she's obviously not wife material.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

SF-FAN said:


> I have every right to question her but she thinks I am insecure for doing so. When I used to ask for affection and to spend time, she called me needy.


I hate to say this. Let's assume she's 100% fine in the marriage, no cheating etc.

Why do you want a woman like this for your wife? Are you insecure about the marriage....YES. For a REASON! She took your security away. That's like someone getting mugged and beaten late at night while walking down the street in the big city, and then someone else thinks they're being unreasonable when they're nervous walking the streets of a big city late at night alone.....

And having to beg your wife for affection?!?! Seriously?!?! I had to search out affection from my exW. As it turned out she didn't love me, kinda hated me and was cheating on me. If a woman loves you, unless she has had some REAL trauma in her life or the husband is disconnected, will be affectionate to her husband.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

SF-FAN said:


> I will look into that as well. She is paranoid right now because she say's I'm nosy and always have to be in her business.


That's not why she's paranoid.

If my wife was nosy and always in my business, I wouldn't care. I'd laugh a little. Want to know why......

I'm NOT HIDING ANYTHING


----------



## Chaparral

Get the sony var, the model that costs about 50 dollars, lithium batteries, at best buy /walmart. Velcro the var under her front seat. Another one in the house where she is likely to talk on the phone.

You know why she's paranoid, she knows you know.


----------



## russell28

Dad&Hubby said:


> That's not why she's paranoid.
> 
> If my wife was nosy and always in my business, I wouldn't care. I'd laugh a little. Want to know why......
> 
> I'm NOT HIDING ANYTHING


I'd be flattered if my wife was in my business, it'd tell me that she not only cared about me, but our marriage... If she starts telling me she needs privacy, withholds affection and talks about independence... Yea, I'd help her with that... Start looking for an apartment for her, or suggest her mothers place. I'd help her pack too, I'm good like that... I used trash bags, they work nice. Don't worry about folding the clothes, and just throw away all the lingerie and underwear, she can buy more.


----------



## Shaggy

You've mistaken being independent - meaning she can take care of herself with her excluding you from her full life and her leading a second private life involving other men.

Sorry, but her track record is that of a serial cheater and if she was posting to a board like this for WW, of which there are some, she'd be posting things like..

H is getting suspicious. I think he's trying to catch me and MM. I can't have that happen, I deserve and need my MM.

MM and I have a date Sat, gotta find someone to cover my shift after 10.

Crap, H got into my FB. Time to lay low and out him off the scent. MM and I will have to meet during the day which means no dinners or clubs together . Should I through sex at H to settle him down? I won't be as good as MM, but with enough drinks I can pretend until its over.

Etc.


----------



## SF-FAN

Thanks for the advice and tough love everyone. I understand that if I catch her, it will be useless in court, however I want proof so I can expose her like I should have 4 years ago. I installed a key logger on the computer last night so we'll see what happens with that. 

The atmosphere at home is very cold, and like I said before I am getting used to the lack of affection and being on my own. That said, I am afraid of divorce so it is something I am going to take do carefully. I am tired of living like this. Being married but feeling single. Life is too short to spend my days miserable.

I plan on putting my foot down to tell her I've had enough and let the chips fall where they may. The only snag right now is that we have a trip to Disneyland planned for next week which the kids are really excited about and I don't want to mess it up for them.


----------



## SF-FAN

BK23 said:


> What are you in school for? Yesterday you were an "intellectual property attorney".....


Sorry, that should read I work for an intellectual property attorney. I am going to school to be an attorney. Right now I find it hard to concentrate on work and school and am finding I make a lot of mistakes.


----------



## SF-FAN

She is a master manipulator...wow. Last night she got in bed and turned around (like normal now) and didn't say a word so my anger got the best of me and I told her "so I guess we're not saying goodnight anymore either huh?" to which she replied "why do I always have to be the one to say it?!" I said whatever and turned around and fell asleep. 

This morning I didn't say much so she just called me and asked why I was so quiet. Told her I'm done pushing being affectionate to which she said "me too." She seems to think she is also affectionate and that I am too needy. That I need affection from her to feel secure in the marriage. I responded by saying "I'm sorry, I thought married couples were supposed to be affectionate, my mistake." I also told her that I'm not needy and that she needs to get off that idea. She hung up pissed...

She's headed to her counselor today so I'm sure she's going to make me look like needy POS. UGH!!


----------



## Dad&Hubby

First meeting of the Needy Husbands Anonymous has been called to session.

Hi My name is Dad&Hubby and I'm needy.

I am a husband who needs affection from my wife. 
I need her to want me sexually because I want her
I need her to kiss me and snuggle up on me. 
I need her to spend time with me.
I need her to be my closest friend and confidante
I need her to be my partner in life
I need her mind and body to be shared with me fully
I need to be appreciated for being a great husband and father
I need to be respected because I give respect and I am moral, honorable and honest
I need to be loved because I give love

I am a needy Husband.


----------



## turnera

meh, let her. You showed strength.


----------



## Everafter2013

SF-FAN said:


> Thanks for the advice and tough love everyone. I understand that if I catch her, it will be useless in court, however I want proof so I can expose her like I should have 4 years ago. I installed a key logger on the computer last night so we'll see what happens with that.
> 
> The atmosphere at home is very cold, and like I said before I am getting used to the lack of affection and being on my own. That said, I am afraid of divorce so it is something I am going to take do carefully. I am tired of living like this. Being married but feeling single. Life is too short to spend my days miserable.
> 
> I plan on putting my foot down to tell her I've had enough and let the chips fall where they may. The only snag right now is that we have a trip to Disneyland planned for next week which the kids are really excited about and I don't want to mess it up for them.


OP, you need to be a little bit more proactive. How about stop planning and start doing. Something, anything, toward your goal. There is always an excuse why you can't do it today.


----------



## Truthseeker1

SF-FAN said:


> Thanks for the advice and tough love everyone. I understand that if I catch her, it will be useless in court, however I want proof so I can expose her like I should have 4 years ago. I installed a key logger on the computer last night so we'll see what happens with that.
> 
> The atmosphere at home is very cold, and like I said before I am getting used to the lack of affection and being on my own. That said, I am afraid of divorce so it is something I am going to take do carefully. I am tired of living like this. Being married but feeling single. Life is too short to spend my days miserable.
> 
> *I plan on putting my foot down to tell her I've had enough and let the chips fall where they may*. :wtf: The only snag right now is that we have a trip to Disneyland planned for next week which the kids are really excited about and I don't want to mess it up for them.


Your wife has all the power in this relationship and you have none - absolutely none. She has told you to go find a woman who will treat you the way you want to be treated - she has ZERO and I mean ZERO respect for you as a man. She sounds like thousands of stuck up hot ladies...your wife is not special she is actually a dime a dozen I don't care hot good looking she is. If you were going to put your foot down it would have been instinctual - you would not have had to plan it. It's like "planning" on blocking an opponents punch you see coming - you just do it. You need to work on you not for this marriage but so you stop being a doormat in future relationships.


----------



## Disenchanted

SF-FAN said:


> I told her "so I guess we're not saying goodnight anymore either huh?"
> 
> I responded by saying "I'm sorry, I thought married couples were supposed to be affectionate, my mistake."


This is passive aggressive behavior and I suggest you try to not do it anymore.

I'm very sorry but your wife seems checked out of your marriage completely (I recognize it, been there). It sucks really bad, I know. You should really be working on trying to control your own emotions (way way easier said then done, I know). It would serve you to try to detach from her emotionally as much as you possibly can. This constant fear you have that she is going to make you out to be some kind of monster is getting the better of you.

Who cares what her counselor thinks. Who cares what her family thinks. You know who you are, you know the truth, and you need to stop worrying about her and taking care of yourself.

Really, detach from her as much as you possibly can until you get your head sorted out.

By that time her true level of commitment to you will probably be so freaking obvious to you that you will realize you only have one choice.

She's checked out. Chasing her in any way will only make it worse.

Have you seen the 180? Google "healing heart 180".


----------



## turnera

It is P/A, but I think the message needed to be said. That he is fed up.


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## Truthseeker1

turnera said:


> It is P/A, but I think the message needed to be said. That he is fed up.


:iagree::iagree: When is enough enough with an unrepentant WS....there should be zero tolerance for this kind of behavior


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## LostViking

Cancel the trip to Disneyland and spend the money on a lawyer.


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## russell28

I got the needy thing too, when I'd ask why I got no 'good night'... It's because her and her boyfriend need to demonize you, in order to justify being total selfish jerks, so... since you're not really a jerk, they need to stretch and reach, you become controlling or needy, aka normal husband that's confused because his wife is acting strange... 

Next time she calls you needy, tell her that she's cold and distant, and not meeting your needs as a husband, because she's giving her affection to another man. That's not needy, that's human. 

When you're in Disney, she's going to want to know why you're always with her, why you can't go off on your own... that's because she needs to text or call her boyfriend. That'd be a good time, since you have her alone, to lay down the rules of your relationship... starting with honesty, then moving to transparency. Tell her that when you get home, you'd like her to send a no contact letter to her boyfriend and recommit to the marriage, or you will find someone that will treat you and your children with respect. Mean it.


----------



## russell28

I think LostViking is on to something.. you want shock and awe, cancel the trip... Tell her that Disney is for happiness and joy, and the only pretend there should be the fairy tales, not your marriage. Tell her you'd like to go to Disney some day and have fond memories of it, not memories of thinking your wife is cheating because she's being cold and hiding things. Plus, tell her you need to save for the divorce that's obviously coming... since she's putting in 0 effort in the marriage now that she's back to cheating.


----------



## SF-FAN

russell28 said:


> I got the needy thing too, when I'd ask why I got no 'good night'... It's because her and her boyfriend need to demonize you, in order to justify being total selfish jerks, so... since you're not really a jerk, they need to stretch and reach, you become controlling or needy, aka normal husband that's confused because his wife is acting strange...
> 
> Next time she calls you needy, tell her that she's cold and distant, and not meeting your needs as a husband, because she's giving her affection to another man. That's not needy, that's human.
> 
> When you're in Disney, she's going to want to know why you're always with her, why you can't go off on your own... that's because she needs to text or call her boyfriend. That'd be a good time, since you have her alone, to lay down the rules of your relationship... starting with honesty, then moving to transparency. Tell her that when you get home, you'd like her to send a no contact letter to her boyfriend and recommit to the marriage, or you will find someone that will treat you and your children with respect. Mean it.


HA, she already feels I am with her all the time (according to past arguments). She's talked with her family about me having to be next to her all the time, including family functions which is hilarious to me because I've never, ever felt I had to do that and never have. I am usually socializing with others. But for some reason though, she says her family sees it and to them I am needy. :rofl:


----------



## SF-FAN

LostViking said:


> Cancel the trip to Disneyland and spend the money on a lawyer.


That would be something, however it would devastate the kids as we were not able to take our annual vacation this year, and the trip is being funded by a mutual savings account. Her sisters are going also so if I try to cancel, she'll go on her own and tell her sisters I am a paranoid, needy a**hole like she always makes me out to be. I'm not so much worried about how I appear to her sisters, but if I don't go, my kids would not be happy about it.


----------



## turnera

SF-FAN said:


> HA, she already feels I am with her all the time (according to past arguments). She's talked with her family about me having to be next to her all the time, including family functions which is hilarious to me because I've never, ever felt I had to do that and never have. I am usually socializing with others. But for some reason though, she says her family sees it and to them I am needy. :rofl:


 Why do you believe anything she says?


----------



## Disenchanted

Well I can assure you this will probably be the last time you will ever want to go there.

There are a couple of just downright beautiful camp spots that I don't think I'll ever be able to go to again.


----------



## illwill

Take the kids and leave her. Put a voice recoder in a few rooms, when you return your proof will be there. This will also give her a preview of her future. The kids will survive. And you are not really married anyway. You guys never recovered from dday 1.


----------



## awake1

SF-FAN said:


> That would be something, however it would devastate the kids as we were not able to take our annual vacation this year, and the trip is being funded by a mutual savings account. Her sisters are going also so if I try to cancel, she'll go on her own and tell her sisters I am a paranoid, needy a**hole like she always makes me out to be. I'm not so much worried about how I appear to her sisters, but if I don't go, my kids would not be happy about it.





Your wife is cheating on you, banging some other guy, treats you like a pile of garbage, bad mouths you to her family and you act like you fought over dishes. 

You're keeping your nose down and being indirect. You say things and hope she gets the message. You seem unwilling to divorce. 

In 10 or 20 years your kids might learn the real reason you could have decided to not go to disneyland. And they'd say "well, now THAT makes sense." 

Stop falling on your own sword and doing all the wrong things you think makes a good man. You're going to bite your lip, pretend to be happy and stand next to a woman that HATES YOUR GUTS. Why? 

You're going to watch as your cheating wife runs around, having a merry time, playing mommy and having a blast on a trip you funded.

Don't ask if you should go, ask why you WANT to go. Why do you want to punish yourself? Your kids will understand one day. 

Tell her sisters "sorry, wife's sleeping around". If they don't believe you so what? It's not on you to talk them into anything. And maybe they go anyhow. 

You cannot well take care of anyone if you're not thinking clearly. You can be the best father, ironically by taking care of yourself first. From that place of stability and worth it sets an example and gives you the energy and confidence to be what they want and deserve. 

By taking care of yourself and fixing yourself you improve not just your life but theirs. 

Cut the funds. Cut your half of the trip out. Don't pay for anything except what you must for yourself and kids. Don't relent, back down or allow yourself to fall back into weak habits. Dont chit chat with her. Don't be her husband anymore, because you are not. Whatever you're doing or paying for, for her, stop it. 

So she calls you *******, lousy, no good. She does this anyways. She'll do it anyways. 

You've given her a buffet of cake eating while you helped her through school.

You're a good guy, just too soft. Too much love for her and not enough for yourself.


----------



## SF-FAN

illwill said:


> Take the kids and leave her. Put a voice recoder in a few rooms, when you return your proof will be there. This will also give her a preview of her future. The kids will survive. And you are not really married anyway. You guys never recovered from dday 1.


Though it would be fun to see her reaction, if I took the kids alone, she'd have the cops on me quicker than flies on turd. She's not doing anything at the house because we live right next and across from my family members that are home all day. They would tell me the minute they saw another dude or car there. For a VAR, the best bet would be her car.


----------



## Squeakr

LostViking said:


> Cancel the trip to Disneyland and spend the money on a lawyer.


Spoken for truth. My WW and I already made Disneyland the *UN*happiest place on earth! Don't repeat my mistakes.


----------



## SF-FAN

awake1 said:


> Your wife is cheating on you, banging some other guy, treats you like a pile of garbage, bad mouths you to her family and you act like you fought over dishes.
> 
> You're keeping your nose down and being indirect. You say things and hope she gets the message. You seem unwilling to divorce.
> 
> In 10 or 20 years your kids might learn the real reason you could have decided to not go to disneyland. And they'd say "well, now THAT makes sense."
> 
> Stop falling on your own sword and doing all the wrong things you think makes a good man. You're going to bite your lip, pretend to be happy and stand next to a woman that HATES YOUR GUTS. Why?
> 
> You're going to watch as your cheating wife runs around, having a merry time, playing mommy and having a blast on a trip you funded.
> 
> Don't ask if you should go, ask why you WANT to go. Why do you want to punish yourself? Your kids will understand one day.
> 
> Tell her sisters "sorry, wife's sleeping around". If they don't believe you so what? It's not on you to talk them into anything. And maybe they go anyhow.
> 
> You cannot well take care of anyone if you're not thinking clearly. You can be the best father, ironically by taking care of yourself first. From that place of stability and worth it sets an example and gives you the energy and confidence to be what they want and deserve.
> 
> By taking care of yourself and fixing yourself you improve not just your life but theirs.
> 
> Cut the funds. Cut your half of the trip out. Don't pay for anything except what you must for yourself and kids. Don't relent, back down or allow yourself to fall back into weak habits. Dont chit chat with her. Don't be her husband anymore, because you are not. Whatever you're doing or paying for, for her, stop it.
> 
> So she calls you *******, lousy, no good. She does this anyways. She'll do it anyways.
> 
> You've given her a buffet of cake eating while you helped her through school.
> 
> You're a good guy, just too soft. Too much love for her and not enough for yourself.


Well said. All the advice on this thread is dead on but you summarized it up nicely. I am going to be printing your post and looking at it anytime I start feeling weak. Thank you. Thank you all!


----------



## Squeakr

She is keeping you around until she finishes school and gets a good job from the education you provided and then she will move on. Mark my words.


----------



## SF-FAN

I hate to say it but I have to face it. I got this "feel sorry" gene from my mother. People can treat us badly, do the unthinkable and for some gosh darn reason we always forgive and on top of that feel bad for them to the point revenge or abandonment is out of the question. I've been looking for a way to turn this off but don't know how.


----------



## Disenchanted

SF-FAN said:


> I hate to say it but I have to face it. I got this "feel sorry" gene from my mother.


Welcome to the "Nice Guy" club.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Disenchanted said:


> Welcome to the "Nice Guy" club.


A club you should quit ASAP....try to join the "good guy club" - meaning i'm a good guy but if you push me I will take you down...


----------



## SF-FAN

Oh, forgot about a little convo we had last night. She decided to tell me about her mom not being happy in her marriage because her dad is an alcoholic and does nothing all day (he's disabled). Her mom feels disconnected and thus disgusted with her dad so she asks, "have you ever felt like that?" I thought she was alluding to our marriage so I said "ya, kind of like us, I feel way disconnected" and she got pissed off saying "why would you bring our relationship into it?" LMAO


----------



## SF-FAN

Truthseeker1 said:


> A club you should quit ASAP....try to join the "good guy club" - meaning i'm a good guy but if you push me I will take you down...


I guess actions speak louder than words, I need to man up and do it.:iagree:


----------



## Disenchanted

SF-FAN said:


> Oh, forgot about a little convo we had last night. She decided to tell me about her mom not being happy in her marriage because her dad is an alcoholic and does nothing all day (he's disabled). Her mom feels disconnected and thus disgusted with her dad so she asks, "have you ever felt like that?" I thought she was alluding to our marriage so I said "ya, kind of like us, I feel way disconnected" and she got pissed off saying "why would you bring our relationship into it?" LMAO


Just an FYI, my ex's OM told a few nice folks on TAM (yes it's an awesome story) who had contacted him, that I abused her, drank like a fish and cheated on her.

This, while I busted my ass out of the house 12+ hours everyday to provide for her SAHM lifestyle. You know, the one that gave her the time to go say all of those lovely things about me to her lover.

(PS don't be surprised if you one day find out that her mom is a cheater too, apparently it runs in the family sometimes)


----------



## Truthseeker1

SF-FAN said:


> I guess actions speak louder than words, I need to man up and do it.:iagree:


:woohoo: Yup....


----------



## turnera

SF-FAN said:


> I hate to say it but I have to face it. I got this "feel sorry" gene from my mother. People can treat us badly, do the unthinkable and for some gosh darn reason we always forgive and on top of that feel bad for them to the point revenge or abandonment is out of the question. I've been looking for a way to turn this off but don't know how.


Therapy? No More Mr Nice Guy? Married Man Sex Life Primer? Hold On To Your N.U.T.S.?


----------



## SF-FAN

turnera said:


> Therapy?


I started to see a therapist but then switched jobs so insurance changed. Old insurance covered therapists, new one doesn't but I'd love to see one again.


----------



## awake1

SF-FAN said:


> I guess actions speak louder than words, I need to man up and do it.:iagree:


If you read no more mr nice guy you should read it again. 

A lot of us have well meaning mothers who love us. However, that close bond sometimes makes for bad things down the road. 

What turned off that "I feel so bad for you no matter what you do to me" thing is realizing my own worth. I can replace FWW. I can be happy without her. No matter how attractive the woman I would rather be single than castrate myself. 

Go out with friends, any place it's a little loose and talk to other women. I'm not saying hit on them. I'm saying talk. Socialize. Realize that you can have a normal conversation with someone of the opposite sex. 

Take care of yourself, start working out and all that. 

You need to change, and you can't do that if you follow the status quo. 

Choose not to take one for the team all the time. You've given enough.


----------



## awake1

Disenchanted said:


> Just an FYI, my ex's OM told a few nice folks on TAM (yes it's an awesome story) who had contacted him, that I abused her, drank like a fish and cheated on her.
> 
> This, while I busted my ass out of the house 12+ hours everyday to provide for her SAHM lifestyle. You know, the one that gave her the time to go say all of those lovely things about me to her lover.
> 
> (PS don't be surprised if you one day find out that her mom is a cheater too, apparently it runs in the family sometimes)


Just like you I worked. 3 jobs at one point. Sometimes 18 hours a day. 

I don't know what she told the other men, but it was probably something similar about how i'm the devil.

I'm sure some of the other men didn't even know she was married. Some did though.


----------



## Shaggy

About the trip.

Lots of opportunity to catch her and to c-block her too.

The trip disrupts her normal routines which she's got down cold, and people are more apt to make mistakes when dealing with change.

1. She might try to slip in an extra visit with OM
2. During the trip she'll try to keep in touch with him
3. Upon returning she'll try to meet up with him quickly.

Recognize that and think ahead.

Catch her..
Var in the car , plus give her time to go be alone in it
Var in the room as in a pocket of a jacket you leave behind? she might beg off with a headache or stomach ache etc.

also watch her before and after the trip - look for a missing couple of hours, or a friend who needs help suddenly.


----------



## SF-FAN

awake1 said:


> If you read no more mr nice guy you should read it again.
> 
> A lot of us have well meaning mothers who love us. However, that close bond sometimes makes for bad things down the road.
> 
> What turned off that "I feel so bad for you no matter what you do to me" thing is realizing my own worth. I can replace FWW. I can be happy without her. No matter how attractive the woman I would rather be single than castrate myself.
> 
> Go out with friends, any place it's a little loose and talk to other women. I'm not saying hit on them. I'm saying talk. Socialize. Realize that you can have a normal conversation with someone of the opposite sex.
> 
> Take care of yourself, start working out and all that.
> 
> You need to change, and you can't do that if you follow the status quo.
> 
> Choose not to take one for the team all the time. You've given enough.


I am actually re-connecting with friends now. Funny thing you mention the gym. During the PA 4 years ago I was way overweight and that was one of her reasons why she lost attraction. ( I know, I know). Well anyway, I started going to the gym and lost over 50 lbs. Ever since, we've both continued to go to the gym and have stayed in shape.


----------



## SF-FAN

As I mentioned in an earlier post, our earlier phone conversation ended in her being angry earlier. Just now she called me like everything is fine. She said she feels good after her meeting with her counselor and proceeded to talk about our son's baseball game tonight....Either she heard what she wanted to at her counselor's or she's smoking something.


----------



## Disenchanted

Interesting points Shaggy. In fact now that you mention it, I was on a camping trip with my family (this very shortly after she started sleeping with the neighbor) when she was down at the lake and I ran back to the camp site to grab something.

While there I snooped her purse and found the receipt for the burner phone. That was the initial bit of inertia I needed and what ultimately led to Dday.


----------



## Disenchanted

SF-FAN said:


> As I mentioned in an earlier post, our earlier phone conversation ended in her being angry earlier. Just now she called me like everything is fine. She said she feels good after her meeting with her counselor and proceeded to talk about our son's baseball game tonight....Either she heard what she wanted to at her counselor's or she's smoking something.


My wife's man hating IC told her I was "unstable" and had "questionable motives" for exposing the infidelity to her family. 

Be careful what you believe.


----------



## SF-FAN

Shaggy said:


> About the trip.
> 
> Lots of opportunity to catch her and to c-block her too.
> 
> The trip disrupts her normal routines which she's got down cold, and people are more apt to make mistakes when dealing with change.
> 
> 1. She might try to slip in an extra visit with OM
> 2. During the trip she'll try to keep in touch with him
> 3. Upon returning she'll try to meet up with him quickly.
> 
> Recognize that and think ahead.
> 
> Catch her..
> Var in the car , plus give her time to go be alone in it
> Var in the room as in a pocket of a jacket you leave behind? she might beg off with a headache or stomach ache etc.
> 
> also watch her before and after the trip - look for a missing couple of hours, or a friend who needs help suddenly.


Thanks for the advice. I will definitely watch for that. It's only a matter of time until she gets caught slipping. I don't need more of a reason to leave but for me, catching her in the act and exposing her and him gives me satisfaction...sorry if some don't agree.


----------



## Dyokemm

OP,

You can really change the dynamics here by just exposing the PA from 4 years ago the next time she tries to paint you as paranoid to her family.

If she tries this during your trip next week with her sisters, just defend yourself by exposing the A and ask them if that doesn't give you the right to be upset that she's talking constantly to some new scumbag co-worker now.

Put HER on the defensive instead of just sitting back and taking her blameshifting and marital rewrites.


----------



## SF-FAN

Dyokemm said:


> OP,
> 
> You can really change the dynamics here by just exposing the PA from 4 years ago the next time she tries to paint you as paranoid to her family.
> 
> If she tries this during your trip next week with her sisters, just defend yourself by exposing the A and ask them if that doesn't give you the right to be upset that she's talking constantly to some new scumbag co-worker now.
> 
> Put HER on the defensive instead of just sitting back and taking her blameshifting and marital rewrites.


Very good point!


----------



## Moulin

Passcode on phone means she's still holding things back which means she's still hiding something.


----------



## SF-FAN

Moulin said:


> Passcode on phone means she's still holding things back which means she's still hiding something.


Oh yeah, as soon as she did that a red flag went up.


----------



## Shaggy

Since she likes to get angry, watch out for the classic - starting and argument followed by stomping out to go cool off by her.

The best counter strategy is to be the one to leave to cool off, leaving her home alone. (With an active var)


----------



## Squeakr

Just pile that on top of the A 4 years ago when you confront the family. State she has had full transparency after you found about the A and now she is locking her phone, texting other men, and hiding things from you. Throw it all out there.


----------



## RyanBingham

tom67 said:


> Show her divorce papers, file. You can always stop it if she comes around jmo. Let her family know what she has done -been doing.


This is the right approach. She didn't suffer any consequences from her first affair. This should feel like a ton of bricks for her. Make it stick and alpha up.


----------



## tom67

Get the var in her car asap! One in the house too.
Amazon.com: pen voice activated recorder
Check them out.


----------



## RyanBingham

Healer said:


> Right - her own space...to have sex with someone - who isn't you.


Sad, but this made me laugh. Ugh


----------



## SF-FAN

RyanBingham said:


> Sad, but this made me laugh. Ugh


Yes, with 3 kids, a job and going to school a wife needs to have her own space and privacy. That is her logic. laughable...


----------



## Moulin

Privacy is not secrecy. There should not be secrets in a marriage. Privacy is for using the bathroom, not a communication device.

What is being said/done that requires privacy? What would her feelings be if your phone/computer were locked down while you communicated with other women?


----------



## carolinadreams

I'm still not clear what's preventing you from putting your foot down right now?

Wife has a relationship with a coworker that's inappropriate and harming the marriage and you. Wife refuses to end it. What more information do you need? Put your foot down and stand your ground.


----------



## vi_bride04

*Re: Re: In a hard place in my marriage*



carolinadreams said:


> I'm still not clear what's preventing you from putting your foot down right now?
> 
> Wife has a relationship with a coworker that's inappropriate and harming the marriage and you. Wife refuses to end it. What more information do you need? Put your foot down and stand your ground.


Exactly!!! And not like you haven't been down the infidelity road before!! Damn...she should understand that....

Ooooh wait....she never had consequences the first time around...just like my ex


----------



## carolinadreams

> She's talked with her family about me having to be next to her all the time, including family functions which is hilarious to me because I've never, ever felt I had to do that and never have. I am usually socializing with others. But for some reason though, she says her family sees it and to them I am needy


My wife did similar things took her complaints to her Mother/Brother and they'd have a good ole time running me down. Wife didn't realize how toxic it was, and how unbalanced it was. People never start there complaints with "well I was really b^&tchy today and he asked me to be softer so I screamed at him like a possessed banshee". It never works like that, they first enumerate their many virtues then the offending spouse lays out all your many flaws into what becomes and amplifying chamber - till everyone agrees you are the reincarnation of Hitler, the Grinch, and Judas all merged into one super bad person.

My wife was shocked when I told her it never occured to me to run her down to my family, I figured whatever problems existed were for the two of us to sort out, and if we coudn't the two of us would go get help. Maybe I am wrong but I think this is the most honest approach barring physical violence, or mental illness.

Anyway why take her nonsense another day? Problems aren't fixxed overnight but the commitment to address them and to consciously stop trying to create new ones can be agreed to in a second.

It would require you to say as your Husband, and your partner I'm not comfortable with your relationship with this man, if you are going to ignore that then let me help you pack your bag. It makes for a nice binary choice, with no negotiation of infidelity.


----------



## RyanBingham

LostViking said:


> Cancel the trip to Disneyland and spend the money on a lawyer.


I agree - it is time and this is the line in the sand. this will be cause a stir for her.


----------



## SF-FAN

carolinadreams said:


> My wife did similar things took her complaints to her Mother/Brother and they'd have a good ole time running me down. Wife didn't realize how toxic it was, and how unbalanced it was. People never start there complaints with "well I was really b^&tchy today and he asked me to be softer so I screamed at him like a possessed banshee". It never works like that, they first enumerate their many virtues then the offending spouse lays out all your many flaws into what becomes and amplifying chamber - till everyone agrees you are the reincarnation of Hitler, the Grinch, and Judas all merged into one super bad person.
> 
> My wife was shocked when I told her it never occured to me to run her down to my family, I figured whatever problems existed were for the two of us to sort out, and if we coudn't the two of us would go get help. Maybe I am wrong but I think this is the most honest approach barring physical violence, or mental illness.
> 
> Anyway why take her nonsense another day? Problems aren't fixxed overnight but the commitment to address them and to consciously stop trying to create new ones can be agreed to in a second.
> 
> It would require you to say as your Husband, and your partner I'm not comfortable with your relationship with this man, if you are going to ignore that then let me help you pack your bag. It makes for a nice binary choice, with no negotiation of infidelity.


I've told her that I've never run to my family with negativity about her - no one needs to know our issues - especially if she is the one running to her family and making me out to be the bad one. What good is that?


----------



## RyanBingham

Truthseeker1 said:


> A club you should quit ASAP....try to join the "good guy club" - meaning i'm a good guy but if you push me I will take you down...


Agree it's time to be a man in your relationship and alpha-up. Start looking at the 180.


----------



## RyanBingham

awake1 said:


> Your wife is cheating on you, banging some other guy, treats you like a pile of garbage, bad mouths you to her family and you act like you fought over dishes.
> 
> You're keeping your nose down and being indirect. You say things and hope she gets the message. You seem unwilling to divorce.
> 
> In 10 or 20 years your kids might learn the real reason you could have decided to not go to disneyland. And they'd say "well, now THAT makes sense."
> 
> Stop falling on your own sword and doing all the wrong things you think makes a good man. You're going to bite your lip, pretend to be happy and stand next to a woman that HATES YOUR GUTS. Why?
> 
> You're going to watch as your cheating wife runs around, having a merry time, playing mommy and having a blast on a trip you funded.
> 
> Don't ask if you should go, ask why you WANT to go. Why do you want to punish yourself? Your kids will understand one day.
> 
> Tell her sisters "sorry, wife's sleeping around". If they don't believe you so what? It's not on you to talk them into anything. And maybe they go anyhow.
> 
> You cannot well take care of anyone if you're not thinking clearly. You can be the best father, ironically by taking care of yourself first. From that place of stability and worth it sets an example and gives you the energy and confidence to be what they want and deserve.
> 
> By taking care of yourself and fixing yourself you improve not just your life but theirs.
> 
> Cut the funds. Cut your half of the trip out. Don't pay for anything except what you must for yourself and kids. Don't relent, back down or allow yourself to fall back into weak habits. Dont chit chat with her. Don't be her husband anymore, because you are not. Whatever you're doing or paying for, for her, stop it.
> 
> So she calls you *******, lousy, no good. She does this anyways. She'll do it anyways.
> 
> You've given her a buffet of cake eating while you helped her through school.
> 
> You're a good guy, just too soft. Too much love for her and not enough for yourself.


Triple like. Great perspective and a real reality check.


----------



## SF-FAN

RyanBingham said:


> Agree it's time to be a man in your relationship and alpha-up. Start looking at the 180.


Since I'm new to this forum, there are a lot of acronyms I am unsure about and certain terms I am not sure about. Is there a link to the 180?


----------



## nuclearnightmare

SF-FAN said:


> I've told her that I've never run to my family with negativity about her - no one needs to know our issues - especially if she is the one running to her family and making me out to be the bad one. What good is that?


S F-FAN

have read entire thread. Your wife is garbage. You married garbage and I'd bet her family is as well, or most of them. But of course she did not appear that way to you when you married her, and I'm sure she fools a LOT of people with a false front that she has constructed ever since childhood.

cancel the family vacation, kick her out of your bed, and grab her iPhone and smash it into pieces in front of her. If she flips out and threatens you tell her you have a lot to tell her family AND your kids about why you are leaving her and you'd hate to have to do that in a way that made her look too bad in their eyes, but.........

Don't beat yourself up about choosing such a person, just get about the business of correcting the mistake..........


----------



## Voltaire2013

SF-FAN said:


> Since I'm new to this forum, there are a lot of acronyms I am unsure about and certain terms I am not sure about. Is there a link to the 180?


The Healing Heart: The 180

Also search 180 on this forum, lots of great advice.

Its hard because it's worth it.


----------



## RyanBingham

SF-FAN said:


> Since I'm new to this forum, there are a lot of acronyms I am unsure about and certain terms I am not sure about. Is there a link to the 180?


Sent you a PM for the link to the 180. Good Luck!


----------



## azteca1986

SF-FAN said:


> Since I'm new to this forum, there are a lot of acronyms I am unsure about and certain terms I am not sure about. Is there a link to the 180?


Read this:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html


----------



## russell28

Squeakr said:


> Spoken for truth. My WW and I already made Disneyland the *UN*happiest place on earth! Don't repeat my mistakes.


My wife was cheating on me through three trips, two to universal studios and one to disney.. we actually went to disney one time when she didn't have a boyfriend. She must've blocked out those trips to help fuel her 'you never took me anywhere' bs line.. I guess she meant to a motel for a quickie . So yea, f Disney.. and Universal, thanks to my wife.. ruined freaking mickey mouse, and now this guys wife is about to kill that dream for him too.

As for the sisters, I found out that one of my sister-in-laws was providing an apartment for my wife and her lover, so don't be so sure they don't know she's cheating.. they might be cool with it, since she's told them what a monster you are and how much she loves this other guy.. Don't trust your in laws.


----------



## Squeakr

russell28 said:


> My wife was cheating on me through three trips, two to universal studios and one to disney.. we actually went to disney one time when she didn't have a boyfriend. She must've blocked out those trips to help fuel her 'you never took me anywhere' bs line.. I guess she meant to a motel for a quickie . So yea, f Disney.. and Universal, thanks to my wife.. ruined freaking mickey mouse, and now this guys wife is about to kill that dream for him too.
> 
> As for the sisters, I found out that one of my sister-in-laws was providing an apartment for my wife and her lover, so don't be so sure they don't know she's cheating.. they might be cool with it, since she's told them what a monster you are and how much she loves this other guy.. Don't trust your in laws.


:iagree: The MIL (Monster In Law) and her BFF each watched the children on separate occasions while she went and had her fun with the OM. In fact the MIL even yelled at the kids when they wanted to call and tell Mommy good night. She said they needed to shut up and go to bed and stop bothering Mommy as she needed and deserved this time away with her "friend". I don't know that the MIL knew at that point (probably did as everyone else did, except me) but she sure facilitated it. What kind of good person lets their married daughter go out with an ex-boyfriend for a long night out on the town, when the husband is on the other side of the country (my WW was supposed to be in CA over the summer vacation with the kids, as she is a teacher, helping her elderly mother recover from surgery, yet her mother thought she needed to go out on her own with an ex, while I was back working in NC). Her BFF and Mother encouraged and negotiated several opportunities for the two to "get together" that summer, and all thought it was alright as she had made me out to be a monster. Don't bet they aren't already in the know.


----------



## Rottdad42

SF, If your wife understood where crossing the line, was crossing the line you wouldn't be where your are today and coming here for advice and suggestions. Regardless of what is transpiring in a marriage, which both parties are held accountable, what part of that is where you say "NO", this is not okay. The way you describe here actions is gaslighting followed by justifications. This is cheater script. If she is unhappy, then it's up to her to tall you these things and attempt to figure out the problem. You don't run into the arms of another for validation and physical release. That is for children.
It just sounds like she is not willing to be a part of the marriage. Staying together for the kids is not the way to go. I know it's difficult to swallow. For myself, views, opinions, home training etc. I don't give second chances when it comes to this. 
I wouldn't be able to stomach the mind movies and for what I do for work, I can handle a lot. This is too close to home and the simple that she is giving you a load of bull****, just goes to show you there is zero respect for you. IMHO, you are going to have to dig down deep and cold heart your whole approach. I'm all for the big "R" when you can, but after being physical with someone else, I wouldn't want to be physical with that person. In a marriage it's 50% of a relationship, for others more or less. The physical part is the side affect of the emotional support that you give to one another. Once somebody else receives your hard work, forget it. I won't say move on, but if she continues in this manner, what will change. Good luck.


----------



## russell28

azteca1986 said:


> Read this:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html


Focus on this part when you read it:

The truth is your marriage is already in very big trouble. *Drastic times will often call for drastic measures.* Also know that often your marriage is often set on a course that you cannot change.
My goal is shared by many of the regular posters here. I am not the one to judge whether or not you should reconcile (R) or divorce (D). I am more interested in getting you to where you are headed faster.

*Limbo is hell. *It sucks your soul dry. I believe it to be ten times more stressful than getting to an actual resolution, even if that resolution is not what you want.

----

don't look to sweep your problem under the rug
don't bury your head in the sand because your problem is not going to go away


----------



## SF-FAN

A little update: As I mentioned previously, I installed a key logger on the computer 2 days ago. She was home all afternoon yesterday while I was at work and used the computer so I thought that for sure I'd have something. It worked to the point I was able to get her password to Facebook (she doesn't really have any other accounts) she has an email account but leaves it open. Anyway, while she was out, I checked her Facebook and to my surprise, there was nothing! In fact she had a couple of private messages from guys she knew in high school or from her past telling them she was married. There were no websites that threw up red flags at all. The kids were not home either but I can tell she was online consistently until we got home because it logs the time.

For sure I thought I'd find something...this was surprising to me.


----------



## tom67

The phone is where you have to check.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Silvr Surfer

Still, It's promising. Are you encouraged?


----------



## LostViking

Might be a good sign. Sometimes it can look like a person is cheating but in the end all the evidence turns out to be circumstantial. It does happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SF-FAN

Silvr Surfer said:


> Still, It's promising. Are you encouraged?


That's the thing, she's never offered her Facebook pw to me and if I asked she may or may not give it to me because of her hangup of having privacy so I don't know. Plus her words/actions sometimes are encouraging and other times are super cold.

I'm just tired of the inconsistency. I know we all have our bad days so I don't expect her to be cheerful and affectionate 24/7 but she has been affectionate about 10% of the time to my 90%.

Don't know what to think honestly.


----------



## tom67

SF-FAN said:


> That's the thing, she's never offered her Facebook pw to me and if I asked she may or may not give it to me because of her hangup of having privacy so I don't know. Plus her words/actions sometimes are encouraging and other times are super cold.
> 
> I'm just tired of the inconsistency. I know we all have our bad days so I don't expect her to be cheerful and affectionate 24/7 but she has been affectionate about 10% of the time to my 90%.
> 
> Don't know what to think honestly.


You have to stop being the "nice guy"starting today.


----------



## SF-FAN

LostViking said:


> Might be a good sign. Sometimes it can look like a person is cheating but in the end all the evidence turns out to be circumstantial. It does happen.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And that's my fear of putting my foot down and threatening D without concrete proof. I know that after an A, everything should be transparent but at the same time the spouse that did not commit the A becomes hyper insecure so it's really hard to just thrown down D and move on. There are kids involved, stability in school, sports, family friends, etc. Some people on here are quick to say that I should cancel a trip and spend it on D. It's not that easy.

Our schedule doesn't allow a lot of time for her to be out doing anything and yes she is at work when she says she is because she works right by our house and her car is there when we pass by. On my search through FB, she even made reference to going to her friend's house (which I thought might have been a front). I'm just really confused.


----------



## tom67

The point is you can't live like this long term. you need to have someone follow her next time she goes out for hours and find out one way or another.


----------



## LostViking

Well at the very least, your marriage and her attitude both suck. 

Have you asked her about doing marriage counseling? You are not happy and she does not feel compelled to do anything to fix it. 

I say continue monitoring her and doing the Sherlock Holmes thing. But you need to get to the bottom of her disrespect for you. You can't continue living with someone who emotionally abuses you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Disenchanted

Well it's probably time for you to decide for yourself what you find acceptable in your marriage.

Whether she is cheating or not isn't even really the point now. How much secrecy are you willing to afford her in your marriage? It doesn't sound like you two are aligned in the thinking regarding this. 

As a man whose wayward wife used her phone as the main vehicle to conduct her affair, I will never again in my life under any circumstance be okay with my monogamously committed partner having a secret cell phone.

That's just me. You should decide. If you don't mind her having that secret from you then just go with everything as it is. If you are not, stand your ground and tell her to hand it over and let you see it RIGHT NOW.

When I say RIGHT NOW I mean don't put up with any excuse about how she'll let you look at some later time, stand your ground and look at what she is texting.


----------



## SF-FAN

LostViking said:


> Well at the very least, your marriage and her attitude both suck.
> 
> Have you asked her about doing marriage counseling? You are not happy and she does not feel compelled to do anything to fix it.
> 
> I say continue monitoring her and doing the Sherlock Holmes thing. But you need to get to the bottom of her disrespect for you. You can't continue living with someone who emotionally abuses you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She's actually going to counseling on her own. She does have issues from childhood that have caused problems in her adult life and relationships. After her session yesterday, she called me in a cheerful mood but last night, again, was cold as far as affection goes.


----------



## Squeakr

SF-FAN said:


> Some people on here are quick to say that I should cancel a trip and spend it on D. It's not that easy.
> 
> Our schedule doesn't allow a lot of time for her to be out doing anything and yes she is at work when she says she is because she works right by our house and her car is there when we pass by. On my search through FB, she even made reference to going to her friend's house (which I thought might have been a front). I'm just really confused.


First it is that easy, if she doesn't want to come clean plans can be changed, s I have done this several times. It sends a message, definitely. Believe me, you're not the only one on here going through this. Most on here have several years of marriage,, with the same responsibilities and family you do and they speak from experience, and sometimes regret from not doing such themselves (they just would like nothing better than for you not to repeat their mistakes).

Second, I hope you are right, but note that I said the same thing about my wife, as she teaches and when she wasn't at school, she was at home or somewhere with me and the kids. We were never really apart except for work hours. Imagine my shock and horror to find that a woman that "had" to be there everyday for the kids and could never take/ get a day off to spend with me in over 12 years, actually took days off from work to drive to another state and meet her OM at a rendezvous point to have their affair. 

She would drive sometimes 4-5 hours one way to meet him (I was working 12 hours days and had a commute,so plenty of time for her). I found that she would leave either right after I did, or a little before (depending on the distance driving this time). Drive there, spend 2-3 hours with him, drive back, and then come in and make up stories about how awful the day went and what kid did what in her school class and act otherwise like nothing out of the ordinary happened. Then later she would email him and say "now wasn't that worth it, Love you hone, get some rest!" In fact one time she called me to say she had an emergency meeting at school and would be late, so could i pick up the kids. I said sure, suspecting nothing, left work early and got my kids. SHe cam home like nothing happened. When all was revealed, it turns out that there was a bad accident and she was delayed due to it, over 250 miles from home. She was a master at lying and covering up, so it can happen even when you are never really apart. My dad had his affair entirely at work on the premises, and my Mom was never the wiser.


----------



## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> Well it's probably time for you to decide for yourself what you find acceptable in your marriage.
> 
> Whether she is cheating or not isn't even really the point now. How much secrecy are you willing to afford her in your marriage? It doesn't sound like you two are aligned in the thinking regarding this.
> 
> As a man whose wayward wife used her phone as the main vehicle to conduct her affair, I will never again in my life under any circumstance be okay with my monogamously committed partner having a secret cell phone.
> 
> That's just me. You should decide. If you don't mind her having that secret from you then just go with everything as it is. If you are not, stand your ground and tell her to hand it over and let you see it RIGHT NOW.
> 
> When I say RIGHT NOW I mean don't put up with any excuse about how she'll let you look at some later time, stand your ground and look at what she is texting.


I totally understand that. I'm fed up with living in limbo. Either she loves me and wants to work through any issues which will mean complete transparency or she doesn't and I'm not living like this anymore.


----------



## bfree

SF, I cannot even suggest that I know what is going on in your wife's mind but has she suggested that her "need" for privacy is just a rebellious reaction to the affair. In other words do you think that its a situation where she just is sick and tired of dealing with the affair aftermath and wants you to just get over it? If so, maybe the direction you should take is not that openness and honesty are necessary after an affair but that these things are necessary for a healthy marriage. Look at this. This is from the Marriagebuilder's site. Dr. Harley is one of the leading experts on marriage and I would urge you to read up on this particular section. After digesting it thoroughly maybe you should present this to your wife. Frankly there is no way she can justify her currect actions in light of this unless she indeed is hiding something. Her reaction will tell you whether she is rebelling or whether she is involved with another man.


The Policy of Radical Honesty

*The Policy of Radical Honesty


Honesty and Openness is one of the ten most important emotional needs identified in marriage, which means that when it's met, it can trigger the feeling of love. But it's counterpart, dishonesty, is one of the five most destructive Love Busters. When spouses are dishonest, they destroy the love they have for each other.

But there is a third reason that honesty is crucial in marriage. Honesty is the only way that you and your spouse will ever come to understand each other. Without honesty, the adjustments that are crucial to the creation of compatibility in your marriage cannot be made. Without honesty, your best efforts to resolve conflicts will be wasted because you will not understand each other well enough to find mutually acceptable solutions.

Most couples do the best they can to make each other happy, at least for a while. But their efforts, however sincere, are often misdirected. They aim at the wrong target. Ignorance, not lack of effort, is often the most important cause of their ultimate downfall.

Couples are not only ignorant of ways to improve their marriages; they are often ignorant of the problems themselves. To avoid conflict, they sometimes deliberately misinform each other as to their feelings, personal history, activities, and plans. This not only leads to a failure to meet an important emotional need, and a withdrawal of love units when the deception is discovered, it also makes marital conflicts impossible to resolve. After all, how can you and your spouse solve a problem if your cards are not on the table?

To help you understand how honest you need to be to have a successful marriage, I have written the Policy of Radical Honesty. I call it "radical" because that's how many see my position on the subject. But I view my policy as simply advocating complete honesty in marriage. In our culture I guess that's a radical idea.

The Policy of Radical Honesty

Reveal to your spouse as much
information about yourself as you know;
your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes,
dislikes, personal history, daily activities,
and plans for the future.

To help explain this policy, I have broken it down into four parts:
1. EMOTIONAL HONESTY: Reveal your emotional reactions, both positive and negative, to the events of your life, particularly to your spouse's behavior. 
2. HISTORICAL HONESTY: Reveal information about your personal history, particularly events that demonstrate personal weakness or failure.
3. CURRENT HONESTY: Reveal information about the events of your day. Provide your spouse with a calendar of your activities, with special emphasis on those that may affect your spouse. 
4. FUTURE HONESTY: Reveal your thoughts and plans regarding future activities and objectives. 
To some extent this policy seems like motherhood and apple pie. Who would argue that it's not a good idea to be honest? But in my years of experience as a marriage counselor, I have constantly struggled with the belief of many clients that dishonesty can be a good idea under certain conditions. Moreover, pastors and counselors themselves often advise dishonesty when a spouse has committed a particularly thoughtless act, such as infidelity. And many marital therapists warn against complaining, something that some consider one of the seven deadly sins of marriage. So instead of complaining, spouses often stuff their feelings and try to put a good face on a bad situation.
Granted, dishonesty can be a good short-term solution to marital conflict. It will probably get you off the hook for a few days or months or keep the problem on the back burner. But it's a terrible long-term solution. If you expect to live with each other for the next few years and still be in love, dishonesty can get you into a great deal of trouble.*


----------



## Squeakr

Disenchanted said:


> Well it's probably time for you to decide for yourself what you find acceptable in your marriage.
> 
> Whether she is cheating or not isn't even really the point now. How much secrecy are you willing to afford her in your marriage? It doesn't sound like you two are aligned in the thinking regarding this.
> 
> As a man whose wayward wife used her phone as the main vehicle to conduct her affair, I will never again in my life under any circumstance be okay with my monogamously committed partner having a secret cell phone.
> 
> That's just me. You should decide. If you don't mind her having that secret from you then just go with everything as it is. If you are not, stand your ground and tell her to hand it over and let you see it RIGHT NOW.
> 
> When I say RIGHT NOW I mean don't put up with any excuse about how she'll let you look at some later time, stand your ground and look at what she is texting.


:iagree: And my WW didn't even have a secret phone. I had full access at anytime I wanted, just always trusted and never suspected anything. SHe would be on FB on it in bed with me and just say she was talking to friends. I never suspected a thing, nor thought she was that type of low down person and she used all of my goodness to fund her eval plot.


----------



## SF-FAN

Squeakr said:


> First it is that easy, if she doesn't want to come clean plans can be changed, s I have done this several times. It sends a message, definitely. Believe me, you're not the only one on here going through this. Most on here have several years of marriage,, with the same responsibilities and family you do and they speak from experience, and sometimes regret from not doing such themselves (they just would like nothing better than for you not to repeat their mistakes).
> 
> Second, I hope you are right, but note that I said the same thing about my wife, as she teaches and when she wasn't at school, she was at home or somewhere with me and the kids. We were never really apart except for work hours. Imagine my shock and horror to find that a woman that "had" to be there everyday for the kids and could never take/ get a day off to spend with me in over 12 years, actually took days off from work to drive to another state and meet her OM at a rendezvous point to have their affair.
> 
> She would drive sometimes 4-5 hours one way to meet him (I was working 12 hours days and had a commute,so plenty of time for her). I found that she would leave either right after I did, or a little before (depending on the distance driving this time). Drive there, spend 2-3 hours with him, drive back, and then come in and make up stories about how awful the day went and what kid did what in her school class and act otherwise like nothing out of the ordinary happened. Then later she would email him and say "now wasn't that worth it, Love you hone, get some rest!" In fact one time she called me to say she had an emergency meeting at school and would be late, so could i pick up the kids. I said sure, suspecting nothing, left work early and got my kids. SHe cam home like nothing happened. When all was revealed, it turns out that there was a bad accident and she was delayed due to it, over 250 miles from home. She was a master at lying and covering up, so it can happen even when you are never really apart. My dad had his affair entirely at work on the premises, and my Mom was never the wiser.


If someone is having an affair, they will do whatever it takes, I get that. Maybe I'm being naive, postponing the inevitable, or just wishing for something may not happen....I don't know, but I do know I am tired of living like this.


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## bfree

Something else you may be interested in:

Snooping: Is it wrong? Or, is it the right thing to do in marriage? by Willard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D. - Marriage Builders®

*Snooping: Is it wrong?
Or, is it the right thing to do in marriage?

by Willard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D.




How would you feel if your spouse were to check your email to see who you've been contacting, and what you've been saying? Or, to check your internet history to determine the internet sites you've been visiting? Or, to look over your texting history and cell phone records?
If you'd be okay with that, let's step it up a notch. How would you feel if your spouse were to install, without your knowledge, a GPS unit on your car to see where you've been? Or, a phone recorder on your cell phone or landline to hear what you're saying? Or, a keylogger program on your computer to know exactly what you're doing on your computer? Or, hire a private investigator to secretly follow you around and make video recordings of your activities?

If you're like most spouses, you would view my first set of investigative methods to be essentially benign, and revealing a possible paranoid streak in your sweetie. But you'd probably consider the second set to be a flagrant violation of your privacy. Does that pretty much sum up how you'd feel?

And yet, I recommend all of the above. So, how can I justify this advice when it goes against the grain of most spouses?

I begin with the proposition that a great marriage is a transparent marriage. The more you know about each other, the easier it is to meet each other's emotional needs, avoid Love Busters, and make decisions with each other's interests in mind.

A related proposition is that none of us is perfect. We all have predispositions that if left unchecked can cause us to hurt others, especially our spouse. But if our behavior is known to our spouse and others, we are much less likely to yield to those destructive predispositions. The public holds us accountable for our behavior, making us much more caring.

In marriage, this destructive predisposition is manifest in a variety of habits that I call Love Busters. But among those destructive habits, there are few as damaging as our tendency to be unfaithful. Yet, I estimate that over 60% of all marriages experience infidelity, one of the most painful experiences a betrayed spouse can have in life.

So snooping is reasonable, especially when there has been evidence of a budding romantic relationship outside of marriage. If Joyce were to check up on me without my knowing about it, it would probably be based on certain facts that would have aroused her curiosity. But knowing now what I know about the devastating effects of unfaithfulness, I'd encourage, not discourage, her -- unless I was really up to something I didn't want her to know about.

What are some of the red flags that would lead a spouse to snoop? The biggest and brightest of them all is for you to claim a right to privacy. If you were to refuse to give your spouse your passwords to your computer, social networks, or cell phone records, or to what you do with your time away from each other, that would trigger almost anyone's curiosity. What's my spouse trying to hide?

There are other red flags. One of them is having a close friend of the opposite sex because that's how most affairs develop. An opposite-sex friend at work, someone you are with recreationally, or someone you simply enjoy talking to about almost anything is the person to whom you are most likely to become emotionally attached. Do you have any close friends of the opposite sex outside of your marriage?

Another red flag is being separated overnight -- or for days, weeks, or months. The longer you are separated from each other, the more likely one of you will have an affair. Jobs that require spouses to be separated are much more highly associated with infidelity than jobs that allow spouses to sleep together overnight.

Other red flags include unexplained absences, where it's difficult to know where a spouse was for a period of time, excessive consumption of alcohol, and a marriage that has lost its spark. These are but a few of the conditions that inspire snooping.

So if your spouse has been snooping on you, and you haven't been having an affair, don't discourage the snooping. Instead, address the red flags. What have you been doing that makes your spouse worry about an affair?

Give your spouse all of your passwords, provide your spouse with your schedule, be available by cell phone throughout the day, and be willing to give a full account of everything you do and everywhere you go. Don't tolerate secrecy in your marriage.

Don't have close friends of the opposite sex. Your spouse should be your best and closest friend. And be sure that your spouse enthusiastically approves of the friends you do have.

Don't be separated overnight. But if it's impossible to avoid, create precautions that would make having an affair while you're apart essentially impossible.

Avoid drinking to excess and going to parties by yourself. And when you go to a party together, stick together throughout the evening.

But if your marriage has lost its spark, if you are no longer meeting each other's most important emotional needs of affection, intimate conversation, sexual fulfillment, and recreational companion -- if you're no longer in love -- start doing something about it today. The greatest risk for an affair is when a marriage is no longer romantic. That's when someone else can step in to fill that void. When that happens, that person can seem to be impossible to resist, regardless of how much damage an affair is to the betrayed spouse, children, and even to the unfaithful spouse. If you and your spouse are not in love with each other, restore that love so that neither of you must choose between a loveless marriage and infidelity.

Snooping usually reflects a spouse's loss of trust. And that loss of trust is usually caused by red flags that should be addressed in a marriage. Even if no affair is actually taking place, the snooping itself should not only be encouraged to help provide evidence that mistrust is unwarranted, but it should also trigger a serious effort by the suspected spouse to remove the red flag.

Consider signing the following agreement: "(husband) and (wife) agree that there is no right to privacy in our marriage and hereby preemptively waive any claim to the same by either one of us until death do us part." Each of you should sign two copies of the agreement, one for each spouse, and keep them in a safe place. If you agree today that there should be no privacy in your marriage -- that each of you has the right to snoop on each other -- you'll spare yourselves considerable grief and sorrow tomorrow.

Don't criticize the snooper. Instead, eliminate the conditions that made the snooping seem reasonable to your spouse.*


----------



## SF-FAN

bfree said:


> SF, I cannot even suggest that I know what is going on in your wife's mind but has she suggested that her "need" for privacy is just a rebellious reaction to the affair. In other words do you think that its a situation where she just is sick and tired of dealing with the affair aftermath and wants you to just get over it? If so, maybe the direction you should take is not that openness and honesty are necessary after an affair but that these things are necessary for a healthy marriage. Look at this. This is from the Marriagebuilder's site. Dr. Harley is one of the leading experts on marriage and I would urge you to read up on this particular section. After digesting it thoroughly maybe you should present this to your wife. Frankly there is no way she can justify her currect actions in light of this unless she indeed is hiding something. Her reaction will tell you whether she is rebelling or whether she is involved with another man.
> 
> 
> The Policy of Radical Honesty
> 
> *The Policy of Radical Honesty
> 
> 
> Honesty and Openness is one of the ten most important emotional needs identified in marriage, which means that when it's met, it can trigger the feeling of love. But it's counterpart, dishonesty, is one of the five most destructive Love Busters. When spouses are dishonest, they destroy the love they have for each other.
> 
> But there is a third reason that honesty is crucial in marriage. Honesty is the only way that you and your spouse will ever come to understand each other. Without honesty, the adjustments that are crucial to the creation of compatibility in your marriage cannot be made. Without honesty, your best efforts to resolve conflicts will be wasted because you will not understand each other well enough to find mutually acceptable solutions.
> 
> Most couples do the best they can to make each other happy, at least for a while. But their efforts, however sincere, are often misdirected. They aim at the wrong target. Ignorance, not lack of effort, is often the most important cause of their ultimate downfall.
> 
> Couples are not only ignorant of ways to improve their marriages; they are often ignorant of the problems themselves. To avoid conflict, they sometimes deliberately misinform each other as to their feelings, personal history, activities, and plans. This not only leads to a failure to meet an important emotional need, and a withdrawal of love units when the deception is discovered, it also makes marital conflicts impossible to resolve. After all, how can you and your spouse solve a problem if your cards are not on the table?
> 
> To help you understand how honest you need to be to have a successful marriage, I have written the Policy of Radical Honesty. I call it "radical" because that's how many see my position on the subject. But I view my policy as simply advocating complete honesty in marriage. In our culture I guess that's a radical idea.
> 
> The Policy of Radical Honesty
> 
> Reveal to your spouse as much
> information about yourself as you know;
> your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes,
> dislikes, personal history, daily activities,
> and plans for the future.
> 
> To help explain this policy, I have broken it down into four parts:
> 1. EMOTIONAL HONESTY: Reveal your emotional reactions, both positive and negative, to the events of your life, particularly to your spouse's behavior.
> 2. HISTORICAL HONESTY: Reveal information about your personal history, particularly events that demonstrate personal weakness or failure.
> 3. CURRENT HONESTY: Reveal information about the events of your day. Provide your spouse with a calendar of your activities, with special emphasis on those that may affect your spouse.
> 4. FUTURE HONESTY: Reveal your thoughts and plans regarding future activities and objectives.
> To some extent this policy seems like motherhood and apple pie. Who would argue that it's not a good idea to be honest? But in my years of experience as a marriage counselor, I have constantly struggled with the belief of many clients that dishonesty can be a good idea under certain conditions. Moreover, pastors and counselors themselves often advise dishonesty when a spouse has committed a particularly thoughtless act, such as infidelity. And many marital therapists warn against complaining, something that some consider one of the seven deadly sins of marriage. So instead of complaining, spouses often stuff their feelings and try to put a good face on a bad situation.
> Granted, dishonesty can be a good short-term solution to marital conflict. It will probably get you off the hook for a few days or months or keep the problem on the back burner. But it's a terrible long-term solution. If you expect to live with each other for the next few years and still be in love, dishonesty can get you into a great deal of trouble.*


This is a very good article. Thank you.


----------



## russell28

Squeakr said:


> :iagree: And my WW didn't even have a secret phone. I had full access at anytime I wanted, just always trusted and never suspected anything. SHe would be on FB on it in bed with me and just say she was talking to friends. I never suspected a thing, nor thought she was that type of low down person and she used all of my goodness to fund her eval plot.


My wife had nothing on her facebook, I checked it a few times when I was suspicious... her boyfriend didn't use facebook, they used the cell phone and talked in work. It's hard to detect the workplace affairs, they don't need facebook or a phone.. they chat every day and take lunches together, meet early, meet after work...


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## SF-FAN

russell28 said:


> My wife had nothing on her facebook, I checked it a few times when I was suspicious... her boyfriend didn't use facebook, they used the cell phone and talked in work. It's hard to detect the workplace affairs, they don't need facebook or a phone.. they chat every day and take lunches together, meet early, meet after work...


That is a complete possibility. Though there are no lunches because she works for about 5 hours in the evening, there are other methods within work. My guard is way up...trust me.


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## tom67

You may have to ask her to take a polygraph. I mean she has nothing to hide right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

What does her cell phone record look like? Is there one number she calls at least every day that's not you or a family member?


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## SF-FAN

turnera said:


> What does her cell phone record look like? Is there one number she calls at least every day that's not you or a family member?


Funny you bring that up, I was just checking it. She texts and calls her co-worker daily, a ton of times (which is a huge red flag) that we've fought over many times and she says that it's all work related which I have told her I don't believe. There is however a new # that I don't recognize that she also calls daily for long periods of time. I tried looking it up online but nothing comes up for a name. My work phone doesn't allow me to call anonymously so not sure how I can figure out who it is.


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## turnera

Well, there you go. Pay someone to track it down. Both numbers. Get background details on both (or the same) people.


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## Squeakr

SF-FAN said:


> Funny you bring that up, I was just checking it. She texts and calls her co-worker daily, a ton of times (which is a huge red flag) that we've fought over many times and she says that it's all work related which I have told her I don't believe. There is however a new # that I don't recognize that she also calls daily for long periods of time. I tried looking it up online but nothing comes up for a name. My work phone doesn't allow me to call anonymously so not sure how I can figure out who it is.



Google Voice and Skype, where you can create a number that isn't really attached to a name, but an email account is a way. Local pay phone, or my personal favorite to recommend, the demo phones at a cell phone sales location, such as a cell store, Best Buy, etc. Can't be traced to you in anyway then. 


I have also called from my phone and when answered I asked the person on the other end whom this is and that I was just checking as my cell phone bill was listing this number in error and I was afraid I was getting overcharged and didn't recognize it. Could they give me a little information, that maybe they knew me or my wife and I wasn't sure why it was showing so many times on my bill. Their answer tells all and I didn't care about anonymous at that point.


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## turnera

I assume coworker is a male? 

How about you have a visit with him? If nothing is going on, he will understand you being concerned. If something is, he may decide she's not worth the trouble.


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## SF-FAN

I know her co-worker's # and yes, he's a male. We've spoken before and he swore that nothing was or is ever going to go on. Which I didn't believe whatsoever. I can pay him a visit at work, however I also don't want to jeopardize her job if it turns up it is nothing (which is a slim to none chance) we actually do need for income.

The other # I don't recognize could either be a new guy or a girlfriend. This one is about 50/50....well more like 80 new guy 20 girlfriend.


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## turnera

Showing up at her work isn't going to get her fired. You can smile, ask him to come talk with you on the side, and quietly tell him you find his phone calls excessive and if they don't stop, you will be questioning HIS boss, smile again, and leave.


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## Disenchanted

dial *67 before the number from a landline and it blocks the caller ID


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## Squeakr

Disenchanted said:


> dial *67 before the number from a landline and it blocks the caller ID



What is the "land line" thing you speak of????  LOL


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## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> dial *67 before the number from a landline and it blocks the caller ID


Thanks, I tried that here at work but for some reason it won't complete the call...maybe an issue with the phone network?


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## Disenchanted

Does she use an iPhone that she syncs or backs up on a computer that you have access to?


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## Disenchanted

SF-FAN said:


> Thanks, I tried that here at work but for some reason it won't complete the call...maybe an issue with the phone network?


My work phones are actually VoIP phones, but you'd never know it looking at them, lol.


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## Disenchanted

Just curious, how many texts in the last month?


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## turnera

We have a land line so we still have phone service when the next hurricane rolls through and we lose electricity for a month again.


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## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> Does she use an iPhone that she syncs or backs up on a computer that you have access to?


No, we both have androids. I used to have her passcode but we both had updates which forced us to change them, only I don't have one. I'm trying to figure out how to get hers.


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## turnera

Who controls the contract?


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## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> Just curious, how many texts in the last month?


I am not going to count but a TON!


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## SF-FAN

turnera said:


> Who controls the contract?


I believe it's under my name, I signed us up.


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## SF-FAN

Now it's not of matter of IF she's doing anything, it's a matter of me exposing her and the OM however many there are. PISSED to say the least!!


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## Disenchanted

SF-FAN said:


> Now it's not of matter of IF she's doing anything, it's a matter of me exposing her and the OM however many there are. PISSED to say the least!!


God I hate cell phones and texting.

I'd print out the records if I were you. When she starts gaslighting you in front of other people you'll have that in your pocket.

Gee, I wonder why this guy is paranoid.


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## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> God I hate cell phones and texting.
> 
> I'd print out the records if I were you. When she starts gaslighting you in front of other people you'll have that in your pocket.
> 
> Gee, I wonder why this guy is paranoid.


Her stupid excuse is that it's all work related and that there is nothing and will ever be nothing. Unfortunately to some, having a friend of the opposite sex while married is perfectly acceptable, even calling and texting frequently that's why she uses the excuse. On top of that, I don't have concrete evidence....so she tries to manipulate. I'm DONE! Just trying to figure out how to come at her.:scratchhead: so that she cannot manipulate her way out of it.


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## Disenchanted

when you say "a ton" I assume you mean hundreds or thousands, which would be obvious to anyone not work related


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## russell28

SF-FAN said:


> Funny you bring that up, I was just checking it. She texts and calls her co-worker daily, a ton of times (which is a huge red flag) that we've fought over many times and she says that it's all work related which I have told her I don't believe. There is however a new # that I don't recognize that she also calls daily for long periods of time. I tried looking it up online but nothing comes up for a name. My work phone doesn't allow me to call anonymously so not sure how I can figure out who it is.


You don't text and call co-workers from a private phone number, companies provide those sorts of things... I just turn off caller id before I make a call to any number I want to check out if reverse phone look up doesn't work. You can also run background checks to get information if you know the coworkers names. The other number might be a home phone of his.. or a second job he's at, or someone helping her sneak, or a second affair... You need to find out. 

My wife left her job and we took a big hit financially.. we're in R now, 6 or so months after DDay, and she's on her second job since then, and this one not only is better as far as no time to socialize, it pays more. One of my requirements to stay with her was that she quit the job, even though the OM had left a couple months earlier and she had done the no contact thing...

You need yours to do the no contact thing.. or you need to leave her.

If you do a background check, you might find his wifes cell phone, you can call her and ask if she's aware that her husband and your wife are calling and texting all day, that it's showing up on your cell phone bill. Ask if she's suspicious about her husbands behavior lately, and if he even mentions your wife in conversations. Ask if he used to talk about her often, but now doesn't bring her up anymore. She'll be like "how did you know that?" 

If you do talk to him, mention that you're wife said that you do business over personal accounts, and that you'd be curious if his boss would confirm that you indeed don't have business phones, business email, business instant messaging and the ability to walk over and talk to someone. Then ask your wife if you can see the content of these instant messages, since they are so harmless.



SF-FAN said:


> Her stupid excuse is that it's all work related and that there is nothing and will ever be nothing. Unfortunately to some, having a friend of the opposite sex while married is perfectly acceptable, even calling and texting frequently that's why she uses the excuse. On top of that, I don't have concrete evidence....so she tries to manipulate. I'm DONE! Just trying to figure out how to come at her.:scratchhead: so that she cannot manipulate her way out of it.


Buy her that book "NOT just Friends"... Read it to her at bedtime.


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## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> when you say "a ton" I assume you mean hundreds or thousands, which would be obvious to anyone not work related


I would venture to guess in the hundreds if not thousands. Additionally, she calls him very often. Though they sometimes only speak for a few minutes, there are also some calls that last 20-30.

The new # is the one she talks to for 40+ minutes almost every call. I'd like to know who that is.


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## Squeakr

Maybe I missed it, but what line of work is she in that would need to have several text messages and calls between her and co-worker and the company not provide the devices?? Usually if it is something that is needed to be done for work like that, the company pays for the devices or provides them??


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## SF-FAN

Squeakr said:


> Maybe I missed it, but what line of work is she in that would need to have several text messages and calls between her and co-worker and the company not provide the devices?? Usually if it is something that is needed to be done for work like that, the company pays for the devices or provides them??


EXACTLY, it is an eating establishment but her claim is that the employees there are so dramatic, there is a lot to talk about. I'm not going to lie, I go along with it but I'm just giving her enough rope to hang herself with.


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## SF-FAN

Her day of execution is fast approaching.


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## russell28

SF-FAN said:


> I would venture to guess in the hundreds if not thousands. Additionally, she calls him very often. Though they sometimes only speak for a few minutes, there are also some calls that last 20-30.
> 
> The new # is the one she talks to for 40+ minutes almost every call. I'd like to know who that is.


The few minute calls sound like this "I'll be there in two minutes"...


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## SF-FAN

russell28 said:


> the few minute calls sound like this "i'll be there in two minutes"...


i agree!


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## Squeakr

SF-FAN said:


> EXACTLY, it is an eating establishment but her claim is that the employees there are so dramatic, there is a lot to talk about. I'm not going to lie, I go along with it but I'm just giving her enough rope to hang herself with.


SO then the majority of the calls and texts are during working hours, right?? If not then do they not have lives outside of there that they need to spend their off time talking about work??

When do they find time? When I go out to eat the staff is generally too busy to take calls and texts, and if they were the service would be suffering, thus tips would be lower.


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## turnera

Or 'lemme call SH-FAN so I can establish an alibi.'


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## turnera

They work in the same restaurant and THEY CALL/TEXT EACH OTHER?

They should BOTH be fired for not doing their jobs!


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## Disenchanted

Look man, this is an intellectual game. Some may not agree with me on this, but this is how I see it.

I would strongly recommend you look at that text and call history and decide for yourself how much proof you need. Stop thinking about what other people will think or what she might say to change your mind, just make up your mind.

She's going to gaslight you, blameshift, try to make you feel like it is you who is insane, and try to make you look bad to other people. Only your resolve matters in all of this, that's why it's an intellectual game.

Once you are convinced that what she is doing is innapropriate and you are rock solid on that decision, and she can no longer shake you, she will give up. That is how it worked for me. I had the text history (300 texts in 3 weeks) and that proved to me, in my mind, that she was lying to me. I did not let up on her until she gave me the truth. It worked. 

But you can not play this game if you are smart about it and if you question your own knowledge.

Look at that history. Does it really matter what is in those texts or who's on the other end? Really?

You know what's up, stop beating around the bush.


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## russell28

SF-FAN said:


> EXACTLY, it is an eating establishment but her claim is that the employees there are so dramatic, there is a lot to talk about. I'm not going to lie, I go along with it but I'm just giving her enough rope to hang herself with.


So she works in an eating establishment, and can't find another job... I doubt it... I'd tell her new job, lose the boyfriend(s) or I'll be finding someone else to provide for, that will provide something in return and not give it to another man.


----------



## SF-FAN

turnera said:


> They work in the same restaurant and THEY CALL/TEXT EACH OTHER?
> 
> They should BOTH be fired for not doing their jobs!


They text during and out of work....I don't care how much drama there is at a job, you run out of crap to text or talk about at some point.


----------



## Disenchanted

I agree with Russell, but still, like I said long ago.

Without total transparency nothing else really matters. That is the bottom line.

People in real marriages don't hide anything except birthday and Christmas presents from each other.

EVER.


----------



## Squeakr

SF-FAN said:


> They text during and out of work....I don't care how much drama there is at a job, you run out of crap to text or talk about at some point.


What is she like twelve or in High School? She is married and has kids, she needs to grow up and be more mature and stay out of all the work place drama.


----------



## SF-FAN

russell28 said:


> So she works in an eating establishment, and can't find another job... I doubt it... I'd tell her new job, lose the boyfriend(s) or I'll be finding someone else to provide for, that will provide something in return and not give it to another man.


Of course she can, it's just convenient - close to our home, works with her school schedule and above all, the OM works there and is a so-called supervisor so she gets perks. I've told her to get another job to get away from the drama but of course I am stupid for suggesting such a off the wall notion.


----------



## turnera

SF-FAN said:


> They text during and out of work....I don't care how much drama there is at a job, you run out of crap to text or talk about at some point.


Not when you're flirting.

You think I'm cute?

Yeah, I think you're cute.

Really?

Really.

Really? Cuz I wonder sometimes...

Baby, I can't wait til 10:30 so I can show you how cute I think you are.

Six texts in less than a minute.


----------



## russell28

Disenchanted said:


> Look man, this is an intellectual game. Some may not agree with me on this, but this is how I see it.
> 
> I would strongly recommend you look at that text and call history and decide for yourself how much proof you need. Stop thinking about what other people will think or what she might say to change your mind, just make up your mind.
> 
> She's going to gaslight you, blameshift, try to make you feel like it is you who is insane, and try to make you look bad to other people. Only your resolve matters in all of this, that's why it's an intellectual game.
> 
> Once you are convinced that what she is doing is innapropriate and you are rock solid on that decision, and she can no longer shake you, she will give up. That is how it worked for me. I had the text history (300 texts in 3 weeks) and that proved to me, in my mind, that she was lying to me. I did not let up on her until she gave me the truth. It worked.
> 
> But you can not play this game if you are smart about it and if you question your own knowledge.
> 
> Look at that history. Does it really matter what is in those texts or who's on the other end? Really?
> 
> You know what's up, stop beating around the bush.


Same... Mine went something like this:

I'm not stupid, stop lying to me...

2 month EA, I'm not stupid.. stop lying to me.. you f'd him didn't you... 

You're still going to lie to me, you want to protect him and you and don't give a crap about me.. one more lie, and just leave.. I don't need any more lies, I've had enough...

Then 2 month EA turns into 2 year PA.. eventually 4 then 5... 

The things I made clear.. I'm not stupid, I deserve respect that I haven't been getting, I won't stay married without honesty and transparency. Once she left and stayed with her mother for a month, she had some time to think about what she was throwing away. 

My wife is also very beautiful, and I love her deeply, as I have since we were very young.. but in order to keep her, I had to be willing to let her go. I had to show her that I'm strong enough to live without her, that I'm not needy.... I'm resilient and probably going to make some nice lady a very lucky person.... I won't ever put up with that kind of treatment again, including locking her cell phone without telling me the passcode if I ask. If I found out she was calling or texting a guy at work all day long... I would NOT need to know what the content of those texts was. I would only need to know what time she could be here to pick up her things.


----------



## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> Look man, this is an intellectual game. Some may not agree with me on this, but this is how I see it.
> 
> I would strongly recommend you look at that text and call history and decide for yourself how much proof you need. Stop thinking about what other people will think or what she might say to change your mind, just make up your mind.
> 
> She's going to gaslight you, blameshift, try to make you feel like it is you who is insane, and try to make you look bad to other people. Only your resolve matters in all of this, that's why it's an intellectual game.
> 
> Once you are convinced that what she is doing is innapropriate and you are rock solid on that decision, and she can no longer shake you, she will give up. That is how it worked for me. I had the text history (300 texts in 3 weeks) and that proved to me, in my mind, that she was lying to me. I did not let up on her until she gave me the truth. It worked.
> 
> But you can not play this game if you are smart about it and if you question your own knowledge.
> 
> Look at that history. Does it really matter what is in those texts or who's on the other end? Really?
> 
> You know what's up, stop beating around the bush.


You're right DIS but she is the type that will go to the ends of the earth to deny any wrong doing so I want to have more than a text/phone log. Maybe I'm dumb but since I've worked with attorneys forever, it's not what is known, it's what you can prove. I know she is doing wrong by the texts/calls, others may see it as o.k.


----------



## turnera

You still don't get it.

IT DOESN'T MATTER if she goes to the ends of the earth to deny, IF YOU ARE DONE ACCEPTING THIS BEHAVIOR.

Being done means you are done if she does it - PERIOD.


----------



## russell28

SF-FAN said:


> Of course she can, it's just convenient - close to our home, works with her school schedule and above all, the OM works there and is a so-called supervisor so she gets perks. I've told her to get another job to get away from the drama but of course I am stupid for suggesting such a off the wall notion.


I bet she's getting 'perks'.. he's in a position of power, so you can get him fired.. He shouldn't be socializing with the workers, or getting involved in 'drama'.. a 'supervisor' shouldn't be talking to a worker about other workers, or anything other than how to do the job. I wonder if he has an office, with a lock and private bathroom.... You forgot one convenience, she gets some of her needs met at work too, she gets attention from men, and even has a boyfriend there.. 

You don't suggest it, you demand it... You're the man, wear the pants.


----------



## turnera

Why don't you just call the owner of the restaurant and tell them he seduced your wife, and you're considering a sexual harassment lawsuit?


----------



## russell28

SF-FAN said:


> You're right DIS but she is the type that will go to the ends of the earth to deny any wrong doing so I want to have more than a text/phone log. Maybe I'm dumb but since I've worked with attorneys forever, it's not what is known, it's what you can prove. I know she is doing wrong by the texts/calls, others may see it as o.k.


That's because those others don't know her history of cheating.. and who cares what they see, you know what is going on. Texting him is more important that making you feel secure and safe.. he's #1, and you're getting a big steaming pile of #2.


----------



## Disenchanted

SF-FAN said:


> You're right DIS but she is the type that will go to the ends of the earth to deny any wrong doing so I want to have more than a text/phone log. Maybe I'm dumb but since I've worked with attorneys forever, it's not what is known, it's what you can prove. I know she is doing wrong by the texts/calls, others may see it as o.k.


From the sound of your level of resolve I suggest you don't take the advice I gave you anyway.

One thing I will say is this. This issue is between you and her and nobody else. She is definitely way ahead of you in the intellectual game part.


One more thing, every state in the USA is no fault divorce, so her texting and talking to and physically interacting with anyone she chooses is completely irrelevant in any court. 

It's only the two of you, nobody else.


----------



## russell28

Stop with the excuses, take action.. You don't need to get photos of her on top of him... and even if you did, she'd say they were posing for a publicity shot for work, and you'd say 'Oh gosh, she got me there...'


----------



## tom67

russell28 said:


> That's because those others don't know her history of cheating.. and who cares what they see, you know what is going on. Texting him is more important that making you feel secure and safe.. he's #1, and you're getting a big steaming pile of #2.


Fan you can't control her but you can control what you will put up with.
You know this isn't appropiate she knows it too why else would she be locking her phone.
Given her history you have plenty but you won't do anything.
I guess there's nothing more to say good luck.


----------



## Thorburn

SF-FAN said:


> I've told her that I've never run to my family with negativity about her - no one needs to know our issues - especially if she is the one running to her family and making me out to be the bad one. What good is that?


I will tell you what good is that. My wife was doing the same thing to me for years. Telling her family how abusive I was. They do it to re-write the marriage. If your wife is saying you are needy then don't show it to her family. Stop doing whatever it is that will show them this, if you are in fact doing it. All she is doing is justifying her cheating. It is a strange mind set that cheaters go into. And this my friend is another red flag.

If you try to defend yourself you will lose. The only defence against it is to show that you are not the bad guy. To rise above it and show that you are a strong individual.

I played into my wife's complaints many times in front of her family. She said i was a drunk. When ever we had a party or whatever, her family would count the number of drinks I had. They missed the big picture of her cheating on me and that she basically was ignoring me. When I complained that she was not giving me attention at family functions I looked like a fool. When I complained that she was spending more time with her family, etc. some in her family would say that I had no right to complain about it. When my wife decided to spend time with her toxic sister on our special Wendesdays instead of being with me (this was my wife's suggestion to meet on every Wednesday), her sister would laugh and tell my wife, who is he to tell you who you can be with. All the while it was my wife who came up with the special Wednesday idea and the first three Wendesday that we could have been together she blew me off and met with her sister. She could have met with her sister at any time, day or night, but she decided to meet with her sister on the very nights that were supposed to be set aside for us. We had some big arguements, and I know for a fact that she had me on speaker phone with her sister listening to me rant, because I had a VAR in her car and heard her sister's response and comments when my wife would put her phone on mute. I sounded like a pitiful whinny fool.

If I had called my wife and simply said, where are you? Isn't tonight suppose to be our time? and left it at that I would not have come across as a ranting idiot.

Sorry for the long rant, but you triggered me and I have had a ton of coffee today.

Step back and look at how you look to her family. If they see you as needy by how you act then stop.


----------



## bryanp

Holy crap. Your wife had an affair only 4 years ago and here she is doing this stuff all over again. How much humiliation and disrespect are you willing to endure.?If the roles were reversed do you honestly think she would put up with this from you? If you do not respect yourself then who will?


----------



## tom67

bryanp said:


> Holy crap. Your wife had an affair only 4 years ago and here she is doing this stuff all over again. How much humiliation and disrespect are you willing to endure.?If the roles were reversed do you honestly think she would put up with this from you? If you do not respect yourself then who will?


You might want to DNA test the kids just in case.


----------



## Refuse to be played

SF-FAN said:


> No, we both have androids. I used to have her passcode but we both had updates which forced us to change them, only I don't have one. I'm trying to figure out how to get hers.


Try to figure out her passcode. If you can you could use this to get everything.

Android Spy App | Android Monitoring Software | Mobile Spy


----------



## russell28

Refuse to be played said:


> Try to figure out her passcode. If you can you could use this to get everything.
> 
> Android Spy App | Android Monitoring Software | Mobile Spy


:iagree: Try the last four of her social security, kids birthdays, years, see if you can notice where here fingers move when she clicks the numbers.. get a camera to film her entering it.. etc..


----------



## Tobyboy

Here are a couple of free websites that might get you a name on the numbers. 

Namefromphone.com
Tnid.us
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alte Dame

You and your WW aren't in a debate, SF, where she gets points for outsmarting or outarguing you. Her behavior should, by all rights, already be a dealbreaker for you. What does it matter what exactly is in the texts? Sure, you want to know this, but you don't require this knowledge to be able to tell her that she has crossed a line and enough is enough.

She disrespects you. You shouldn't accept this. Ever.

You sound like you are afraid of her. Why?

You will feel much, much better about your life if you stand up for what is right & what is right is that marriage is not a game to be played strategically to your advantage, where you get to cheat as long as you can outsmart, demoralize and gaslight your spouse.

She sets you back on your heels only because you let her. Why do you do this? What are you afraid will happen if you take a clear stand? So what if she can talk herself out of something? So what?


----------



## SF-FAN

New Update: After really looking into the call logs, it got me pissed enough to tell her something. She called me and I told her I was done, that she talked and texted him way too much and there was something going one - I am not taking it anymore. Of course her usual "we're just friends" defense came right up. I told her that was BS and that NO ONE texts and talks to someone that much and are just friends. I told her it stopped now and if not, I was going to the OM and her boss. Oh she got pissed telling me "why would you go to my boss? what does he have to do with it?" You are soo good and running your mouth (even though I have not told a soul). Anyway, the convo went on with her blaming me for everything and that they were only friends. I told her BS, it stops or I'm done. She said I'm moving out, do what what you have to do.


----------



## Disenchanted

Don't chase


----------



## turnera

Good. Let her move out. She's probably been planning it anyway.

Once she sees that you won't back down, she'll go wait, aren't you going to pursue me? Wait, why are you going out and having fun without me? Wait, why was there a girl in your car last night? Wait, maybe I shouldn't have said what I said, let's talk. Wait, you know what, you were right, I WAS cheating and I was wrong - can you forgive me and take me back?


----------



## SF-FAN

She already called me back. For no real reason so I just reiterated what I told her in the last conversation. It stops NOW or I'm done. If you choose to move out, do what you have to do. Towards the end she asked if I was still going to Disneyland.


----------



## alte Dame

Do not blink. Do not.


----------



## turnera

HAH! And you said...?


----------



## Squeakr

Let her go and either cancel her phone or take it, as it is under your name and on your plan. She can get her own phone and plan if she needs it. Don't let her take the kids. Also when she leaves, check what the laws are but have it noted, so she can be held accountable for abandonment.


----------



## turnera

alte Dame said:


> Do not blink. Do not.


 She is testing you. She thought you were a doormat. She didn't know you were getting advice and learning to be a man, not a mouse. You surprised her. You started to become a 'real man' like her cheater POS who takes what he wants. She started to just maybe admire you. 

DO NOT BACK DOWN or you will be lost forever just like JS.


----------



## Squeakr

SF-FAN said:


> She already called me back. For no real reason so I just reiterated what I told her in the last conversation. It stops NOW or I'm done. If you choose to move out, do what you have to do. Towards the end she asked if I was still going to Disneyland.


She doesn't even want you to go as you are going to cramp her style.


----------



## Disenchanted

A lot of sh!t is about to happen. It'd be smart if you could put off any discussion until she is in your presence. Now she's got a chance to go through and delete all racy texts and "prove" it's platonic by showing you what's left.

You should demand to see her phone without her getting a chance to delete anything. 

If you stay cool and calm, unemotional, you can gain the upper hand. But man you gotta stay cool. 

As was said to me, imagine James Bond in your position. He doesn't get upset, he doesn't ask for what he wants. He gets it.

Your resolve is that you are ready to move on, don't forget it. That is your strength, it's her turn to kiss your ass.


----------



## Squeakr

If your provider has detailed billing then print out the recent activity, so when she does cleanse the history to show you how innocent it is, you can point to the other texts that AREN'T showing up on the bill. Let her explain how if it is so innocent, then why aren't full exchanges there, only those she is showing you.


----------



## SF-FAN

I'm calm and cool. I know what's at stake. If she moves out and essentially we do divorce, I will be killed emotionally but I will not die physically. I'm prepared for her having her stuff out of the house, or at least saying, I am not staying here this weekend (which is her norm when we fight). If she does, I won't blink.


----------



## SF-FAN

Squeakr said:


> If your provider has detailed billing then print out the recent activity, so when she does cleanse the history to show you how innocent it is, you can point to the other texts that AREN'T showing up on the bill. Let her explain how if it is so innocent, then why aren't full exchanges there, only those she is showing you.


Took care of that already. I told her if we are heading for divorce, I will be subpoenaing all the texts which show the actual exchange for court. I think that scared her out of her wits.


----------



## turnera

Agreed. THE KIDS STAY WITH YOU, IN THEIR OWN HOME.

btw, this is all a bluff, likely. She likes eating cake and probably has/had no intention of leaving. She said that because she knows you're afraid of her leaving so, when you actually stand up to her, she pulls the one card you're afraid of so you'd back off and let her keep cheating. You have just as much right for the kids to live with you as she does. She'll have to get a lawyer to move them.


----------



## turnera

Squeakr said:


> If your provider has detailed billing then print out the recent activity, so when she does cleanse the history to show you how innocent it is, you can point to the other texts that AREN'T showing up on the bill. Let her explain how if it is so innocent, then why aren't full exchanges there, only those she is showing you.


* QFT!*


----------



## Disenchanted

Do you have a way to voice record your upcoming interaction? 

There is the offhand chance that she will pull some nasty stuff.

My wife threatened to have the cops take me away when I had busted her, just sayin'.


----------



## turnera

SF-FAN said:


> I'm calm and cool. I know what's at stake. If she moves out and essentially we do divorce, I will be killed emotionally but I will not die physically. I'm prepared for her having her stuff out of the house, or at least saying, I am not staying here this weekend (which is her norm when we fight). If she does, I won't blink.


 If she 'leaves' for the weekend, let her come home to find her clothes packed and waiting at the door.


----------



## SF-FAN

She then tried to give me a sob story about "well if you do print out the records and try to smear my name, I am taking the kids and moving far away." I told her sorry, I will be sure to file a document in court stating that you can't take the kids out of the county. Either way, I feel good now but I know my high will be coming down and it is going to kill me inside. But enough is enough.


----------



## azteca1986

SF-FAN said:


> I'm calm and cool. I know what's at stake. If she moves out and essentially we do divorce, *I will be killed emotionally* but I will not die physically. I'm prepared for her having her stuff out of the house, or at least saying, I am not staying here this weekend (which is her norm when we fight). If she does, I won't blink.


No, I believe you'll be strong for your kids. She's just picked her OM over them and your marriage.


----------



## SF-FAN

azteca1986 said:


> No, I believe you'll be strong for your kids. She's just picked her OM over them and your marriage.


I told her that. I said "it's said that he (the OM) is more important to you than our kids and our marriage. She got mad and said "don't ever say I don't care about my kids."


----------



## Disenchanted

SF-FAN said:


> She then tried to give me a sob story about "well if you do print out the records and try to smear my name, I am taking the kids and moving far away."


Stay resolved, this kind of bullsh!t is about to get a lot worse for you.

That good feeling you're getting? That's the feeling of reattaching your testicles where they belong. It won't go away, as long as you continue on this journey you just started on today. 

Which is the journey to taking care of yourself.


----------



## Squeakr

SF-FAN said:


> She then tried to give me a sob story about "*well if you do print out the records and try to smear my name,* I am taking the kids and moving far away." I told her sorry, I will be sure to file a document in court stating that you can't take the kids out of the county. Either way, I feel good now but I know my high will be coming down and it is going to kill me inside. But enough is enough.


But how could you smear her name, as they are just friends and everything is innocent?? 

So now she is backtracking and trying to downplay things.


----------



## Squeakr

SF-FAN said:


> I told her that. I said "it's said that he (the OM) is more important to you than our kids and our marriage. She got mad and said "don't ever say I don't care about my kids."



Same thing my WW said when I busted her and found out she had left the kids in others care so she could have her A, or sent them to bed and had it in our downstairs when I was out of town. Mine left them with others or neglected them to have her A and she dares say, "don't say I don't love my kids."


----------



## turnera

Keep a VAR on you.


----------



## SF-FAN

Squeakr said:


> But how could you smear her name, as they are just friends and everything is innocent??
> 
> So now she is backtracking and trying to downplay things.


I told her "you are not really good friends and no one in their right mind will believe that when looking at the text/call log." Either you admit to what you're doing or it will all come out in court. To which she replied, "I'm not admitting to anything."

I'm prepared for her to try something, like moving out or taking the kids to her mom's or sister's for the weekend - again.


----------



## Disenchanted

SF-FAN said:


> "I'm not admitting to anything."


This is an admission of an affair, congratulations.

I got one too, but she still wouldn't openly admit it for another month cause I didn't want to believe it.

You done good, you got an admission very quickly.


----------



## Squeakr

Now instead of saying I am not doing anything wrong, now it is I am not admitting to anything. Next will be that they only kissed once. Then that they just went out a couple of times as friends, that then turns into they only had sex one time and she didn't even enjoy it. Prepare, as I bet it is coming.

She'll definitely try and do that, then she can have the family all to herself to degrade and badmouth you and your radical actions. She will be in CYA mode. Trying to minimize and get the upper hand against you. Might call Mom (if you are on good terms) and give her heads up about what is coming. It tends to turn the BS meter onto high for those notified in advance.


----------



## tom67

SF-FAN said:


> I told her "you are not really good friends and no one in their right mind will believe that when looking at the text/call log." Either you admit to what you're doing or it will all come out in court. To which she replied, "I'm not admitting to anything."
> 
> I'm prepared for her to try something, like moving out or taking the kids to her mom's or sister's for the weekend - again.


the kids should be split 50/50 Tell her that she can have them saturday you have them sunday that's bs!


----------



## SF-FAN

I think she's trying to do damage control right now. During our last phone call, she said "I have to go, I'll call you back." She can erase all the texts, if this goes all the way to court, I will have my attorney subpoena all the records - you best believe that.


----------



## turnera

SF-FAN said:


> I'm prepared for her to try something, like moving out or taking the kids to her mom's or sister's for the weekend - again.


 Then take them somewhere yourself, first.


----------



## tom67

Pack her stuff in garbage bags and leave them by the door. Tell her I helped you pack so you would leave sooner. Oh I forgot is this coworker married or have a gf?


----------



## mahike

Keep your wits about you and stay calm for the kids. You called her bluff. She may try to raise the stakes but keep you your plan. If she stays tell her you want the password to the phone and you will check it when you want to. Tell her she has to find another job and now.

I am sorry you are going through this but stay strong and focused for the kids.


----------



## Squeakr

Get ready you'll get all the terms here in the next few days. Gaslighting, blameshifting, rugsweeping (which you have already gotten with the "it is only a friendship"), Minimizing, trickle truthing.

Time to out the man at work to the boss, as if it is happening and she is getting perks, then the owner should know on this happening, as he can be responsible ultimately.


----------



## SF-FAN

Squeakr said:


> Now instead of saying I am not doing anything wrong, now it is I am not admitting to anything. Next will be that they only kissed once. Then that they just went out a couple of times as friends, that then turns into they only had sex one time and she didn't even enjoy it. Prepare, as I bet it is coming.
> 
> She'll definitely try and do that, then she can have the family all to herself to degrade and badmouth you and your radical actions. She will be in CYA mode. Trying to minimize and get the upper hand against you. Might call Mom (if you are on good terms) and give her heads up about what is coming. It tends to turn the BS meter onto high for those notified in advance.


I told her "what you have with the OM is NOT a friendship so stop telling me that. I just hope you are not stupid enough to have had sex with him seeing as how you just got a negative result for the STD test. To which she replied "I'm not that stupid." Whether she did or didn't, she has that in her mind now. If she did, she may be wondering about an STD.


----------



## azteca1986

If you can't get a VAR before she gets home, get a friend to come over as a witness.


----------



## SF-FAN

tom67 said:


> Pack her stuff in garbage bags and leave them by the door. Tell her I helped you pack so you would leave sooner. Oh I forgot is this coworker married or have a gf?


Not sure currently but that I know of his wife divorced him a few years ago.


----------



## Disenchanted

Does your phone have a voice or video record function? Leave it on in your chest pocket


----------



## SF-FAN

I unfortunately am the one at work and she just got home so in that sense she has the advantage.


----------



## tom67

SF-FAN said:


> I told her "what you have with the OM is NOT a friendship so stop telling me that. I just hope you are not stupid enough to have had sex with him seeing as how you just got a negative result for the STD test. To which she replied "I'm not that stupid." Whether she did or didn't, she has that in her mind now. If she did, she may be wondering about an STD.


Hmm I'm all for regular checkups, but what was her reason for this test except well...


----------



## DailyGrind

SF-FAN said:


> She then tried to give me a sob story about "well if you do print out the records and try to smear my name, I am taking the kids and moving far away." I told her sorry, I will be sure to file a document in court stating that you can't take the kids out of the county. Either way, I feel good now but I know my high will be coming down and it is going to kill me inside. But enough is enough.


That's not a sob story. That's a declaration of war!


----------



## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> Does your phone have a voice or video record function? Leave it on in your chest pocket


Not sure if it does, I will be checking into that.


----------



## turnera

SF-FAN said:


> I unfortunately am the one at work and she just got home so in that sense she has the advantage.


Then call her mom and tell her what's going on. She has already said she's not admitting to anything, not to mention "I'm not that stupid" - meaning she IS IN AN AFFAIR. 

Tell her mom that if she brings the kids over there, you will be over to collect them when you get off work.


----------



## tom67

Well sounds like you should get off this forum for a little bit and start making appointments with attorneys for next week.


----------



## tom67

turnera said:


> Then call her mom and tell her what's going on. She has already said she's not admitting to anything, not to mention "I'm not that stupid" - meaning she IS IN AN AFFAIR.
> 
> Tell her mom that if she brings the kids over there, you will be over to collect them when you get off work.


Yes :iagree::iagree:


----------



## tom67

Yea call her mom no emotion tell her the amount of texts you're tired of her disrespect and yes you rugswept her 1st affair and was a doormat but no more. Then tell her it's your daughter's fault you won't get to see the grandkids as much leave it at that.


----------



## SF-FAN

tom67 said:


> Yea call her mom no emotion tell her the amount of texts you're tired of her disrespect and yes you rugswept her 1st affair and was a doormat but no more. Then tell her it's your daughter's fault you won't get to see the grandkids as much leave it at that.


I have a feeling she would go to her sister's house and downplay the whole thing. She did that last time. Her sister's has done the same BS to her SO so she may get sympathy from her. She won't go to her mom's because her mom will not condone her texting/talking to another guy.


----------



## SF-FAN

I just checked the phone log online and interestingly enough, she hasn't contact the OM BUT, she has called and texted the new #. I believe she also texted her sister and other people, probably looking for advise or asking if she can stay the weekend with them.


----------



## tom67

SF-FAN said:


> I have a feeling she would go to her sister's house and downplay the whole thing. She did that last time. Her sister's has done the same BS to her SO so she may get sympathy from her. She won't go to her mom's because her mom will not condone her texting/talking to another guy.


Then call her mother bring it to the light of day.


----------



## Squeakr

SF-FAN said:


> I have a feeling she would go to her sister's house and downplay the whole thing. She did that last time. Her sister's has done the same BS to her SO so she may get sympathy from her. *She won't go to her mom's because her mom will not condone her texting/talking to another guy*.


Don't count on this as blood is thicker than water. If Mom thinks she may D and then lose more time with the kids she may back the W all the way. in fact she may just do it based upon what your W is telling her. It is amazing how convincing they can be to those not living with the crap everyday.


----------



## Squeakr

SF-FAN said:


> I just checked the phone log online and interestingly enough, she hasn't contact the OM BUT, she has called and texted the new #. I believe she also texted her sister and other people, probably looking for advise or asking if she can stay the weekend with them.


I would bet the new # is the same OM, just a new phone. Don't be surprised if he didn't get a new phone and number, as the new iPhone just came out, and he sounds like a player that would need to sport the latest and greatest. Heck he may even have a company supplied device now as he is a manager/ boss and that could be that number.


----------



## turnera

Call the sister too, then.


----------



## Disenchanted

SF-FAN said:


> I just checked the phone log online and interestingly enough, she hasn't contact the OM BUT, she has called and texted the new #. I believe she also texted her sister and other people, probably looking for advise or asking if she can stay the weekend with them.


Hell PM me the other number I'll call it for you, lol.


----------



## Disenchanted

Squeakr said:


> I would bet the new # is the same OM, just a new phone.


Or his home phone, should be easy to tell looking at logs.


----------



## Squeakr

Disenchanted said:


> Or his home phone, should be easy to tell looking at logs.


Doubt it, as she called AND texted, and most home lines don't have text capability (unless special VOIP, or a backup cell phone for at home only). Also generally landlines are easy to find in google searches, wheres cells aren't. Just saying....


----------



## Disenchanted

Squeakr said:


> Doubt it, as she called AND texted, and most home lines don't have text capability (unless special VOIP, or a backup cell phone for at home only). Just saying....


AH I thought OP said she talked for long periods of time on the other phone, not texted. My bad.


----------



## Squeakr

Disenchanted said:


> AH I thought OP said she talked for long periods of time on the other phone, not texted. My bad.


He did earlier say generally the calls were 40+ min calls everyday to that #, but just a few minutes ago after talking to her, he said he checked the logs and "she hadn't contacted the OM, but had called and texted the new #".

I am detailed oriented and pick up those little things as they are dead give aways to the type of phone generally. LOL This is why my WW got caught when I actually paid attention.


----------



## SF-FAN

She just called me back and said "you win, I won't call or text the OM, I will stay with you for the kids but no promises." To which I replied, I'm not staying a fake marriage." After a little go-around, she finally said o.k., " I love you" and I said "if you did, you wouldn't have done that to me" and then she got irate and said "fine I'm done."


----------



## SF-FAN

Oh but initially in the conversation she asked "what do you want to do, I ruined your life huh?" and then she had the nerve to still continue to say it was a friendship....lmao.


----------



## Squeakr

Sorry for you having to go through this. She is testing you and pushing your buttons to call your bluff. Hang in there and you'll get through it.


----------



## Squeakr

SF-FAN said:


> Oh but initially in the conversation she asked "what do you want to do, I ruined your life huh?" and then she had the nerve to still continue to say it was a friendship....lmao.



She has called the OM and tipped him off that you know. She will go on the down low now until she thinks that it is clear to resume. That is why she called and texted the new # to get to him before you do. Also why she made the no promises statement so when caught again she doesn't go back on her word, as she can claim I said no promises.


----------



## MarriedTex

We're on Page 21 of this thread now. This will not end soon. Looks like we're headed for triple digits!


----------



## LostViking

Your wife is a child. Your kids are more mature than her. 

For their sakes file for divorce. Don't let them grow up in a marital environment like this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

SF,

This is what you say now.

Wife, I am convinced that you are having an affair with OM. It is now up to you to convince me that you aren't or you need to tell me the entire truth. Afterwards I am going to begin to confirm what you tell me. I will get the text records, I will make an appointment with a polygraph tester, and there are other methods at my disposal. If I find out you have lied to me in any way or not told me the entire truth we are done and I will be filing for divorce. I will also notify each and every person in your life about what you've done and provide them the proof required. I will also pay a visit to the owner of the restaurant you both work at and tell him I'm planning on filing a sexual harrassment lawsuit against him and his business.

See if that shakes her up enough to crack her.


----------



## LongWalk

When you have gotten tough with her she petulantly resents it as if you were a parent figure laying down rules to a teen.


----------



## RyanBingham

turnera said:


> You still don't get it.
> 
> IT DOESN'T MATTER if she goes to the ends of the earth to deny, IF YOU ARE DONE ACCEPTING THIS BEHAVIOR.
> 
> Being done means you are done if she does it - PERIOD.


This! Rinse, repeat SF... This is the core of your freedom from all of your toxic relationships.


----------



## Vulcan2013

Expose to her mom, at the very least. She needs consequences.


----------



## SF-FAN

She wants to talk about it and wants to try. She said she's is going to stop. She also admitted she is afraid of her name being smeared and for the kids. She said she will try. I told her, "don't do me any favors."

That is where we are at. She is with the kids at an event so I'm sure she'll call me back.


----------



## SF-FAN

Oh and she also gave be this little tid bit "I can tell you I did not sleep with the guy if you are thinking that."


----------



## Squeakr

SF-FAN said:


> Oh and she also gave be this little tid bit "I can tell you I did not sleep with the guy if you are thinking that."


Told you. Here come the blame shifting, trickle truthing, etc. Like I said it will go from I did nothing it is just friends, to we went out, then it was just one kiss...and so forth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LostViking

SF-FAN said:


> Oh and she also gave be this little tid bit "I can tell you I did not sleep with the guy if you are thinking that."


So entitled. So proud. 

Is this the kind of person you want to spend the rest of your life with ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SF-FAN

I need some advice on blame shifting and word play she is undoubtedly going to use this weekend. I may not be able to log on this weekend so any wise words are welcome. This forum has made me feel like I have a support system, unlike last time.


----------



## RyanBingham

SF-FAN said:


> She then tried to give me a sob story about "well if you do print out the records and try to smear my name, I am taking the kids and moving far away." I told her sorry, I will be sure to file a document in court stating that you can't take the kids out of the county. Either way, I feel good now but I know my high will be coming down and it is going to kill me inside. But enough is enough.


Channels this, bro. You are in the right and being strong for your kids will help buffer the drama that will inevitably come. They will need a rock of parent to hold onto - be that for them.


----------



## bfree

SF-FAN said:


> I need some advice on blame shifting and word play she is undoubtedly going to use this weekend. I may not be able to log on this weekend so any wise words are welcome. This forum has made me feel like I have a support system, unlike last time.


Just keep telling her "prove it."

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....it's a damned duck! It's up to her to prove to you that its really a swan.


----------



## SF-FAN

bfree said:


> Just keep telling her "prove it."
> 
> If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....it's a damned duck! It's up to her to prove to you that its really a swan.


Prove what? I told her I'm not believing that it is a friendship and she already admitted indirectly that it's not. She will never fully say, "yes I did this and that."


----------



## Squeakr

She will say that you didn't appreciate her. You smothered her and controlled her. These are blame shifting examples to place her errors onto you. Don't let her tell you it was a mistake. It is a choice that she made and needs to own up to. She had choices and this was hers and not a mistake. She will then try to gas light by making something else seem worse than what she is doing. Like well I wasn't sleeping with him like last time. This takes the focus off the current situation whether what she is saying is truth or not. Then she will trickle truth. Start at the most basic and minimum she can give you to stop you from seeking more. This is what you are in for and possibly more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LostViking

SF-FAN said:


> Prove what? I told her I'm not believing that it is a friendship and she already admitted indirectly that it's not. She will never fully say, "yes I did this and that."


You need to do a complete 180 on her, detach, see a lawyer about your options. 

All you are doing by continuing to talk to her is feeding her passive aggressiveness. She is unremorseful and you are playing her game. 

Tell her family what she is doing. Quit being scared of her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SF-FAN

Squeakr said:


> She will say that you didn't appreciate her. You smothered her and controlled her. These are blame shifting examples to place her errors onto you. Don't let her tell you it was a mistake. It is a choice that she made and needs to own up to. She had choices and this was hers and not a mistake. She will then try to gas light by making something else seem worse than what she is doing. Like well I wasn't sleeping with him like last time. This takes the focus off the current situation whether what she is saying is truth or not. Then she will trickle truth. Start at the most basic and minimum she can give you to stop you from seeking more. This is what you are in for and possibly more.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She tried telling me that she has to talk to another person because I'm boring and too "routine." I'm sorry but I work and go to school full time and then take care of the kids while she is having a good time at work.


----------



## LostViking

SF-FAN said:


> She tried telling me that she has to talk to another person because I'm boring and too "routine." I'm sorry but I work and go to school full time and then take care of the kids while she is having a good time at work.


SF-FAN, quit talking to her. Seriously.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Squeakr

You are seeing what you are in for as it is starting already.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SF-FAN

LostViking said:


> SF-FAN, quit talking to her. Seriously.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This was when I first confronted her.


----------



## Shaggy

Can you swap SIM cards with her phone and yours? So that you get her texts?

If so do it later and text the unknown # some thing like 

"We'll that was fun with him! Please say something to cheer me up"

Then watch you get back,


----------



## SF-FAN

Shaggy said:


> Can you swap SIM cards with her phone and yours? So that you get her texts?
> 
> If so do it later and text the unknown # some thing like
> 
> "We'll that was fun with him! Please say something to cheer me up"
> 
> Then watch you get back,


That's a good idea, may do that. I am thinking it might be his new #. Don't understand why he would have 2 #s though. And why she would text both.


----------



## Squeakr

Read what I said. The new phones just came out and some people will sign a new contract to get a phone and carry both until the old contract ends. It could also be his new work phone. There are many possibilities. I see several people carrying 2 and 3 phones for various reasons, coverage, special phone for special reason, one contract couldn't be ended, they have phones on someone else's plan as they couldn't get one on their own. Insert your reason here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tobyboy

Confiscate her phone and extract all the evidence. Surely someone here can help you do that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alte Dame

You don't sound like you will be able to do a 180 or come down hard the way you need to. That being the case, I will try to say something about blameshifting. Your WW is effective with you in the way she deflects you. You seem to understand this, but are unable to really deal with it.

When she starts with her counterattacks, criticisms or whatever she does to shift blame, just stay monotone. Keep repeating, "I won't listen to any excuses." If she keeps at it, you leave. Just refuse to listen to her 'reasons.' And never, ever respond and/or defend yourself re the substance of what she's saying.


----------



## Chaparral

If I remember correctly, you can get old texts from some providers, but not all,
without a subpoena.

Can you subpoena records without filing for divorce?


----------



## tom67

LostViking said:


> So entitled. So proud.
> 
> Is this the kind of person you want to spend the rest of your life with ?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


NO!:iagree:


----------



## turnera

LongWalk said:


> When you have gotten tough with her she petulantly resents it as if you were a parent figure laying down rules to a teen.


 Just want to clarify, this is NOT your normal relationship with her, right? To be the father figure?

Nothing to do with right now, just wanted to ask while I still remember it.


----------



## Disenchanted

Here is some advice for when you can't log on.

Go cold. Get out of the house. Take the kids to a park, just don't listen to her. She is 10 steps ahead of you emotinally and you need to reverse that. Go cold.

What I did, and I think it will really work for you, is to write down (or type up) a list of your demands. Make them simple and clear and then stick to them. 

What do you want? Write it down. 

I would suggest first, give you her phone, and you will give her one you can moniter.

Full disclosure of her affair, dates, times, how it happened and what happened.

That sort of thing. Make a clear list that you can stick to and make it non negotiable.

Leave it with her and get some space for yourself.

You need to go cold on her.


----------



## turnera

The trick to ignoring the blameshifting etc is to NOT LISTEN TO IT.

All your job this weekend is this: reiterate that she meet your demands or you file for divorce. HER CHOICE. At this point you don't care because you won't continue to stay with a woman who cheats. Period. That's all there is to it. Either she quits her job, changes her phone number, writes him a NC letter, and gives you the passwords to her phone, or you're filing Monday morning. 

Period.

End of discussion.

You tell her you don't CARE why she did it, what she's thinking at this point, what her excuses her, and you sure as hell don't want to hear any "negotiation" from her. You're are giving her the choice - choose you or choose him and whoever else. But you won't share.


----------



## weightlifter

Wow am i late.

Vars. sony icdpx312 or icdpx333 from best buy
Lithium batteries
Industrial or heavy duty self stick velcro from walmart. Its in fabric ro screws section.

Ill post the rest in a few hours. 

Ugh stop driving her further underground. Soft confronts like this just lead to more rdmu's.


----------



## Disenchanted

It just dawned on me. 

You are monitoring her texts online right?

You can not let her know that you are doing this.

If she already knows you're doing it, expect her to get a burner phone. A prepaid phone is impossible to trace and easy to hide. 

All good cheaters get one.


----------



## SF-FAN

I sent the OM a text and told him to stop. The guy showed how much of a douche he is and gave me crap. I told him to stop contacting her and me or I would be filing for sexual harassment in the work place. He told to stop harassing him...he's a real piece of work.

Oh btw, she's trying to go cold on me now.


----------



## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> It just dawned on me.
> 
> You are monitoring her texts online right?
> 
> You can not let her know that you are doing this.
> 
> If she already knows you're doing it, expect her to get a burner phone. A prepaid phone is impossible to trace and easy to hide.
> 
> All good cheaters get one.


I had to, that was my only evidence against her.


----------



## Shaggy

Look, it's clear they've got something going on. Her priority to be loyal to is him and not to you.

I'd be putting him up on cheaterville.com

You don't need to prove she's cheating with him, she needs to prove she isn't.


----------



## SF-FAN

Right now I'm feeling weak and hurt. I'm still keeping my foot down but felt stronger earlier.


----------



## Disenchanted

You're doing great. Don't worry about the OM, it's okay that you contacted but don't bother anymore.

This isn't easy, I'm really sorry you are here. A lot of us have been through this and it's a real test. 

It's good that you are standing up for yourself, you'll come out of this a stronger and better man. 

Do you have someone in real life you can talk to? It might be a good idea.


----------



## Shaggy

Suggestion have a plan and follow it.

1. You need to find out who has the new #. It might be a prepaid or pay as you go burner phone 

2. See if you can read her messages. Heck take her phone tonight when she's asleep, get in the car , park around the street and see what you can find, look at the pictures too, and forward any suspicious ones to yourself, later see if they've got exif data with GPS location info of where they were taken

3. Put the OM you know about up on cheaterville.com

4. See if the guy is married - if he is find his wife and talk to her

5. Ask for a polygraph from your wife


----------



## weightlifter

Ugh uh this thing is going nine places all at once. You will have two schools of thought. The confront nows and the get your ducks in a row people. (Me)

If you choose the latter effing STOP STOP STOP STOP and implement the following. PLAY DUMB HUSBAND STARTING NOW!!!!

(This is a cut copy. No way Im typing this whole thing out 8 times a week)

Your wife is acting funny. Her phone and email suddenly have passwords you don't know. She shuts down phone apps or changes windows on the computer whenever you enter the room. She is suddenly staying out until 2 to 5 in the morning. She has new single friends. She has lost weight and is dressing hotter to boot. Her ex contacted her 3 weeks ago and she wants “to meet to catch up at some public place” Any of this sound familiar? 

If you are reading this your gut is going crazy. “Relax”, in that there is a high liklihood that you are not crazy at least. “Your gut” is your basic instinct from the caveman period. There is something up with your mate. It is part of your mind built into you and in your DNA. You probably cant sleep. You are losing weight like crazy and are not hungry. Well if you are reading this and that is 90% of you reading this if its your first time... You are embarking on what is probably going to be the worst time of your life.

Chin up, yes I know it is damn near impossible to believe now, but I and the people at TAM here have taken dozens of men through this process. Some reconcile, most dont in the long run so be aware. Most of us hang around this grim grim place for a sense of “pay it forward” and “getting at the truth” Even in divorce, the long run the majority find love again... yes really. Often selecting a far far better future companion. Read poster BFF for a thread of disaster, divorce, recovery, and a new wonderful woman in his life. Younger and hotter, yes, but also one with better boundaries, often a far far better personality match. Oh and they get to go through that first time with her after the first I love you's have been exchanged. Just know, that for the majority, even if the marriage crashes, in six months, a year, maybe two you will wonder how you got so far so fast and how great your new life is. You will also be MUCH MUCH stronger as a person.

So. Here are your instructions. Do this now. I dont mean next week. I mean make something up within the next day and GET IT DONE! Not looking will only prolong your agony.

NO MORE CONFRONTS!! Play dumb husband for a bit. Dont drive her further underground! Soft confronts RARELY WORK AND ONLY MAKE GETTING AT THE TRUTH HARDER!!! THIS PROLONGS YOUR AGONY! NEVER give up you get your intel from the VAR. You tell her, you always got your info from a PI or someone saw them. Hard confronts with overwhelming evidence to crush all resistance are the name of the game.

Buy 2 sony ICDPX312 voice activated recorders. Best Buy sells them for like 50 bucks. DO NOT BUY THE cheapies. USE LITHIUM batteries. We have examples of 25 hour recordings using them on these sony recorders. My icon IS a Sony ICDPX312. No I do not have stock in nor work for Sony.

Setup instructions are on page 19. Also good stuff on page 31.
Use 44K bit rate for balancing file size vs quality DO NOT USE 8K!!!!! Simply put. The higher the quality the better the sound and 8K sucks. ALSO. The higher the quality the more you can manipulate the mp3 in Audacity.
Set VOR "on" see page 38
See page 40 for adding memory if necessary
Play with it yourself to get familiar. TEST IT OUT 
Turn off the beep feature. Its on one of the menus. You can even play prevent defense by going to a dollar store, buying uber-cheapie earbuds, cut off the buds but put in the jack which will actually disable the speaker for additional protection.

Go to Walmart and buy heavy duty velcro.
This is one item: Velcro Heavy-Duty Hook and Loop Fastener VEK90117: Office : Walmart.com
also
Purchase VELCRO Hook and Loop Fasteners, Sticky-Back, for less at Walmart.com. Save money. Live better.
The velcro is usually in the fabric section or the aisle with the fasteners like screws.

Use the velcro to attach the var under her seat UP INSIDE. SECURE IT WELL!!!!!! So well even a big bump wont knock it off. attach one side HD velcro from Walmart to back. USE BIG PIECE
attach other side HD velcro again UP INSIDE car seat. 

ATTACH THE CRAP out of it. It needs to stay put going over big potholes or railroad tracks.
I recommend exporting the sound files to your comp. The recorder is very cumbersome for playback.

Put the second VAR in whatever room she uses to talk in when you are not around. If you are a typical man, use your size advantage to put it someplace she cant reach, even on a chair. Beware spring cleaning season if she does it.

Amazon has a pen VAR that can be placed in a purse or other small place to get remote conversations. Yes the pen works.

Usual warning. If you hear another man and perhaps a little kissing or... STOP Listening and have a trusted friend listen and tell you what went on. Knowing she is a cheat will kill you. Hearing her moan while another man is inside her will murder you to your very soul!!!!!! You are not strong enough to hear that. Dont try it. I know what I am talking about in this.

If you need clean up the recordings get Audacity. Its free from the internet. I have used it on var work for others here to remove things like engine noise. If needed, I have done var work for four men here. RDMU is the only one who has released some of the confidentiality. Read his second thread for my reliability and confidentiality. NEVER GIVE UP YOUR ELECTRONIC EVIDENCE. They were seen by a PI or something NOT your VAR!!

If your wife comes home from an alone time does she immediately change liners, change panties possibly even immediately laundering them?, shower? This can be an after the fact clean up. Amazon sells a semen detection kit called checkmate.

The ezoom GPS has been found to be easy to buy at Radio shack and useful. There is even a locator webpage you can track with.

Look for a burner phone. This is a second phone from a prepay service just used for cheating communications. That is often why wives let the husband "see their phone" The dont use their main phone for cheating purposes.

There is an app out there called teensafe. Its for both Iphone and Android. It monitors texts, GPS and facebook. Needs no jailbreak. Not perfect and delayed but no jailbreak required.

Look for apps on her phone like words with friends. It has a non traceable texting feature.
Here is a list 25 Apps to Help You Cheat On Your Girlfriend | Complex


----------



## weightlifter

All I see is RDMU happening all over again on this one. This is ugly.

OP see your PM's


----------



## turnera

SF-FAN said:


> I had to, that was my only evidence against her.


 Huh? YOU are in control. Why do YOU have to give HER evidence?


----------



## weightlifter

Ugh this is turning into a train wreck. OP. If you want the truth you need to stop and play dumb Mr Cool and implement my plan. I can not go to best buy for you.


----------



## turnera

Here: *DO NOT APOLOGIZE EVER TO HER.*

She is going to harass you until you feel like you need to apologize for what you did.

DO NOT DO IT.

Just keep repeating: I will not share my wife with another man. If you can't be faithful to me, there's the door.

SAY NOTHING ELSE.


----------



## bfree

As sound as your advice may be WL I for one couldn't follow it. If I suspected my wife of cheating I wouldn't be able to control myself while waiting for evidence to manifest. I'd end up confronting and demand she come clean or prove to me she wasn't cheating. Then I'd file and make her change my mind before the divorce finalized. What is the point of gathering evidence when adultery doesn't matter in the courts. And most WS gaslight and blameshift anyway so evidence doesn't really enter into it. The fact is that something inappropriate is going on and that's all the OP really needs to know.


----------



## weightlifter

bfree said:


> As sound as your advice may be WL I for one couldn't follow it. If I suspected my wife of cheating I wouldn't be able to control myself while waiting for evidence to manifest. I'd end up confronting and demand she come clean or prove to me she wasn't cheating. Then I'd file and make her change my mind before the divorce finalized. What is the point of gathering evidence when adultery doesn't matter in the courts. And most WS gaslight and blameshift anyway so evidence doesn't really enter into it. The fact is that something inappropriate is going on and that's all the OP really needs to know.


Hence why I started my reply there will be two schools of thought. He is trying to implement both. 

CANT be done.


----------



## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> You're doing great. Don't worry about the OM, it's okay that you contacted but don't bother anymore.
> 
> This isn't easy, I'm really sorry you are here. A lot of us have been through this and it's a real test.
> 
> It's good that you are standing up for yourself, you'll come out of this a stronger and better man.
> 
> Do you have someone in real life you can talk to? It might be a good idea.


I don't. Well at least no one I have faith in.


----------



## bryanp

3 years ago she was screwing another man for a year and putting your health at risk for STD's. She has now changed her password so you cannot access it and tells you it is time for you to get over it?............What is wrong with this picture?

If you had screwed another woman behind her back for a year how do you think she would take it if you told her to just get over it? Why did you accept such humiliation and disrespect from her?


----------



## jnj express

You are in Calif---go to google---get the calif legal documents website---print out the D packet, the Custody packet, and the Property settlement worksheet----have them in your house in a place where she has to find them

Make sure you hold the line on her----if she decides to stay---SHE DOES ALL THE HEAVY LIFTING, AND HER SHI*TY ATTITUDE IS GONE---she goes completely transparent---IN RE: EVERYTHING

By the way from now on your answer about privacy is as follows---THERE IS NO PRIVACY IN A MGE---YOUR VOWS THAT YOU TOOK---MOLDED US INTO ONE---To have and to hold---THERE IS NO PRIVACY IN THIS MGE---tell her she wants privacy---get a D, and become single

She is to give you the ID of her new phone partner---and stop talking to him/her

You check any normal phone situation---there are calls and texts---but never on inordinent amount----she is way out of line

Tell her if she isn't gonna change her attitude as to you, and stop her talking to other men----the mge is still in jeopardy, and also she needs to leave the marital bedroom---you do not need to spend your nights with a woman who prefers other men to you----she has already spread her legs for one other man---and who knows what she is doing now----AND YOU WILL NOT STAND FOR HER CRAP ANY MORE----end of discussion---and stop arguing with her---make your statements and walk away


----------



## turnera

SF-FAN said:


> I don't. Well at least no one I have faith in.


 Who cares if you 'have faith' in them? Talk to them anyway.

What is your wife saying now?


----------



## SF-FAN

I haven't ate all day, developing a head ache and feel very weak. Not to give in but weak as in I don't know where to go from here. I'm keeping my foot down but the pain is really starting to set in.


----------



## SF-FAN

turnera said:


> Who cares if you 'have faith' in them? Talk to them anyway.
> 
> What is your wife saying now?


She is at work, no doubt planning to go underground with the OM. She was trying to act cold earlier so I don't know what she'll be like when she gets home.


----------



## tom67

Call mil.


----------



## jnj express

This is gonna hurt---no matter how it plays out---but it is gonna hurt way more, if you find out she is giving herself to other men---D would hurt---but it will hurt a lot less---vis a vis---what you went thru/felt the 1st time she spread her legs

In all honesty---I ain't sure why you really wanna stay with her---she seems to LIKE to cheat on you---and then defend her cheating

As to her present partner/partners---specially the one you talked to----tell him this--if you find out he has ONE MORE CONTACT WITH HER, in any form---you will do the following

File 2 different legal actions agst him---one for sexual harassment of your spouse and your kids mother, and one for intentional infliction of emotional distress---tell him each action will filed by FOUR PEOPLE AGST HIM---you and each of your kids, will name him as the defendant, in separate actions----

You know the drill he would have to defend EIGHT actions, and once served he would have ONE month to answer, or he defaults----all you have to do is to file the suits----he is gonna spend a he*l of a lot of money to file EIGHT answers


----------



## turnera

SH-FAN, there is only ONE THING that matters this weekend. That you state, over and over again, either you choose me and only me, or I'm filing for divorce.

DO NOT GET INTO A DISCUSSION WITH HER.

"Give me the passwords to your phone and computer, send him a NC letter, quit your job this weekend, or I'm filing on Monday."

NOTHING ELSE. Go in your bedroom and lock her out, if you have to.


----------



## tom67

jnj express said:


> This is gonna hurt---no matter how it plays out---but it is gonna hurt way more, if you find out she is giving herself to other men---D would hurt---but it will hurt a lot less---vis a vis---what you went thru/felt the 1st time she spread her legs
> 
> In all honesty---I ain't sure why you really wanna stay with her---she seems to LIKE to cheat on you---and then defend her cheating
> 
> As to her present partner/partners---specially the one you talked to----tell him this--if you find out he has ONE MORE CONTACT WITH HER, in any form---you will do the following
> 
> File 2 different legal actions agst him---one for sexual harassment of your spouse and your kids mother, and one for intentional infliction of emotional distress---tell him each action will filed by FOUR PEOPLE AGST HIM---you and each of your kids, will name him as the defendant, in separate actions----
> 
> You know the drill he would have to defend EIGHT actions, and once served he would have ONE month to answer, or he defaults----all you have to do is to file the suits----he is gonna spend a he*l of a lot of money to file EIGHT answers


If he is in a state that still has it, go for it.


----------



## turnera

SF-FAN said:


> She is at work, no doubt planning to go underground with the OM. She was trying to act cold earlier so I don't know what she'll be like when she gets home.


 You're still not getting it.

WHO CARES WHAT SHE IS LIKE when she gets home? Seriously, WHO CARES? 

Right now, ALL you care about is her cutting OM out of her life. 

If she won't do that, you have NOTHING TO TALK ABOUT.


----------



## tom67

turnera said:


> You're still not getting it.
> 
> WHO CARES WHAT SHE IS LIKE when she gets home? Seriously, WHO CARES?
> 
> Right now, ALL you care about is her cutting OM out of her life.
> 
> If she won't do that, you have NOTHING TO TALK ABOUT.


Focus eat something get some otc sleep aids and fight for another day.


----------



## SF-FAN

turnera said:


> You're still not getting it.
> 
> WHO CARES WHAT SHE IS LIKE when she gets home? Seriously, WHO CARES?
> 
> Right now, ALL you care about is her cutting OM out of her life.
> 
> If she won't do that, you have NOTHING TO TALK ABOUT.


Very true. If if it wasn't for this forum I would not be doing anything.


----------



## SF-FAN

Thank you all, I am done for the night and will keep you posted.


----------



## jnj express

Every state in the country allows intentional infliction---its alienation of affection, and criminal conversation, that are only allowed in 7 states----as to sexual harassment---that can be dealt with several ways


----------



## Disenchanted

update if possible SF, I'm thinking about you


----------



## SF-FAN

Just got home from a long day of kids sports. Hard day emotionally, feel like my heart is torn apart. She is putting up a front like do what you want, I'm not happy with you so I don't care. On top of that, I doubt contact is going to stop with OM.


----------



## Shaggy

So post OM up on cheaterville and see how they like their romance being public.


----------



## tom67

Shaggy said:


> So post OM up on cheaterville and see how they like their romance being public.


And leave us the link here we'll do the rest.

Have you told her mother yet?

Even though sil may be like your w I would tell her also to show you are not the doormat anymore. Who the hEll knows what your wife has been actually telling them heck you have proof.


----------



## weightlifter

What is he going to post? Too much texting and phone calls? Bad? Yep but... Am I missing something?

I just don't see enough that she is not going to be able to turn this thing around on him hardcore.

yes we likely know what is going on but I have yet to see even mediocre evidence other than this is "the script" example 99999999999.


----------



## SF-FAN

What does cheatervile do?


----------



## tom67

SF-FAN said:


> What does cheatervile do?


here CheaterVille :: Don't Be the Last to Know


----------



## Shaggy

You say on cheaterville that he's in a relationship with a married woman - let the readers fill in the details

You want to make him dump her because she's too much trouble,


----------



## terrence4159

you will be on a roller coaster for a long while now sf fan. one day tough one day good the trick is to only have her see you tough and happy hiding the sad days.

then one day you will just snap out of it and be fine. my day was after 2 months of her cheating not knowing who she wanted....woke up one morning had enough filed for divorce (9month old son now have him 5 of 7 days a week) and got a tattoo of my ex wifes name on my back...in a knife handle and the knife sticking out of my back. pissed her off and the R talked killed. profile pict is the knife tattoo


----------



## Chaparral

SF-FAN said:


> What does cheatervile do?


Cheaterville shows him to be a cheater anytime his name is googled. The effect is very quick since you can use their anonymous email option to send him a link. You can also make the post in the third person, if you like, to keep him guessing as to outed him.


----------



## Disenchanted

SF-FAN said:


> Just got home from a long day of kids sports. Hard day emotionally, feel like my heart is torn apart. She is putting up a front like do what you want, I'm not happy with you so I don't care. On top of that, I doubt contact is going to stop with OM.


She's checked out. 

Stay resolved, don't beg, don't plead, don't let her see you cry. She might snap out of it but not if you show weakness.

Start the divorce process tomorrow. In my state you can download the paperwork and fill it out yourself. But I suggest you get some legal advice. Most law firms give a free phone consultation. You need to do this asap. 

And one more thing, DO NOT LET HER KNOW ABOUT THIS WEBSITE.


----------



## turnera

SF-FAN said:


> What does cheatervile do?


 Read JS's thread. In a matter of two days after his wife denied denied denied, posting her OM on CV got him to dump JS's wife and got JS's wife to capitulate and say I'll do what it takes to save the marriage. (that said, JS squandered the opportunity and is now at his wife's beck and call, her being a lawyer and smarter than him)

In two days, her OM went from invisible to having 23,000 people look at his post on CV and him desperate to separate himself from JS's wife.

That's what it does.


----------



## TDSC60

SF-FAN said:


> She tried telling me that she has to talk to another person because I'm boring and too "routine." I'm sorry but I work and go to school full time and then take care of the kids while she is having a good time at work.


Earlier you asked about blame shifting. Well this is it.

In her eyes, you are to blame for everything she has done. It is not her fault for cheating - you made her do it - or she was justified in doing it because of some mythical thing you said or did 10 years ago. But the comment she made about you being boring takes it to a whole new level. Not just blame shifting but demonizing you in the process.

This woman is toxic in so many ways.


----------



## SF-FAN

turnera said:


> Read JS's thread. In a matter of two days after his wife denied denied denied, posting her OM on CV got him to dump JS's wife and got JS's wife to capitulate and say I'll do what it takes to save the marriage. (that said, JS squandered the opportunity and is now at his wife's beck and call, her being a lawyer and smarter than him)
> 
> In two days, her OM went from invisible to having 23,000 people look at his post on CV and him desperate to separate himself from JS's wife.
> 
> That's what it does.


From what I know about this POS (OM), he's divorced. From the little interaction I had with him, he seems like a total douche bag so I can see why she left him. If he ends up on CV, he'll know who did it right away. I kind of wish now that I hadn't contacted him and instead put him on CV.


----------



## turnera

Who cares if he knows you did it? JS's WW's OM knew it was JS. So what?


----------



## SF-FAN

turnera said:


> Who cares if he knows you did it? JS's WW's OM knew it was JS. So what?


He's the type of hot head that will cause further problems just to cause them. Though I can defend myself, he's the type that would come at me while I am with my kids. I'm still holding the CV card but at this time, I don't think it will do much.


----------



## SF-FAN

terrence4159 said:


> you will be on a roller coaster for a long while now sf fan. one day tough one day good the trick is to only have her see you tough and happy hiding the sad days.
> 
> then one day you will just snap out of it and be fine. my day was after 2 months of her cheating not knowing who she wanted....woke up one morning had enough filed for divorce (9month old son now have him 5 of 7 days a week) and got a tattoo of my ex wifes name on my back...in a knife handle and the knife sticking out of my back. pissed her off and the R talked killed. profile pict is the knife tattoo


I'm on a roller coaster now. It's coming in moments. One moment I'll be o.k., the next it feels like my heart is in a shredder. I just don't understand how a human being can do this to another human being. 99% the A comes to light so why even do it.....especially when you have 3 kids that will look at you and your actions.

Oh regarding that, when we were arguing and she was on high blameshifting mode, she said that even though the kids would be devastated now, she'd explain it to them and they'd understand when they got older. Can you believe that?


----------



## Truthseeker1

SF-FAN said:


> I'm on a roller coaster now. It's coming in moments. One moment I'll be o.k., the next it feels like my heart is in a shredder. I just don't understand how a human being can do this to another human being. 99% the A comes to light so why even do it.....especially when you have 3 kids that will look at you and your actions.
> 
> Oh regarding that, when we were arguing and she was on high blameshifting mode, she said that even though the kids would be devastated now, she'd explain it to them and they'd understand when they got older. *Can you believe that*?


Yes I can..your wife sounds like an awful person..her and the OM seem to deserve each other....


----------



## Charger440

SF-FAN said:


> I've been married 8 years, have 3 kids. My wife had an affair 4 years ago and during, absolutely denied something was going on. She played it off as innocent and platonic. Though I had a gut instinct and confronted her about her actions, she denied and even went as far as to say that I should feel like an idiot for thinking that way. It was only after I found out (threw emails) that she could not deny anymore. She begged and we agreed to work things out rather than get a divorce.
> 
> Fast forward to present day. For the most part things got better, she was an open book as far as texts, emails, facebook, etc. until about last year. She took the position that she is a grown woman and should be able to have friends guy or girl as long as it's not crossing any boundaries. As such, she has been texting a co-worker a lot since last year that I accused her of having an EA with and of course she denies. It's come in 2 waves. Last year we fought about it heavily to where I thought our marriage was over and then all of a sudden she stopped and our marriage seemed to get better. The texting appears to have started up again since March of this year. Of course I brought it to her attention again and she says it's only a friendship and will never be anything more. Needless to say, I am on guard due to our past and very insecure.
> 
> Because of my insecurity and "neediness" we had a huge fight in July. She went to her family and told them how I am so needy but nothing about her actions. Since then things have been cold between us. Another thing I don't like is that she goes to her girlfriend's house in the evenings. With her past, it makes me wonder if she's going somewhere else. I don't have proof that she is having an EA and that she is not going to her friend's house but since things are so cold, I don't know what to do or think.


Welcome to the club. It sucks being here but here are a few things. First her girlfriends are all of similar mindset and they will cover for each other. My wife's friends are her friend's only. Even the one friend who seemingly tried to give me good advice is still her friend. Don't fall for the sucker punch. If you have proof present it to her. If you have a gut feeling about where she is going follow her. I spent the better part of yesterday doing exactly that with my wife.


----------



## SF-FAN

Charger440 said:


> Welcome to the club. It sucks being here but here are a few things. First her girlfriends are all of similar mindset and they will cover for each other. My wife's friends are her friend's only. Even the one friend who seemingly tried to give me good advice is still her friend. Don't fall for the sucker punch. If you have proof present it to her. If you have a gut feeling about where she is going follow her. I spent the better part of yesterday doing exactly that with my wife.


She doesn't have a ton of friends but I know that she'll do whatever it takes to get the friends she does have and her family on her side. She will likely stick to the people that won't judge her for doing what she did.


----------



## Charger440

SF-FAN said:


> She doesn't have a ton of friends but I know that she'll do whatever it takes to get the friends she does have and her family on her side. She will likely stick to the people that won't judge her for doing what she did.


My wife does the same. As long as your the only one who can do wrong in the relationship her actions are always justified good or bad. Its BS, but they get away with it every time.


----------



## SF-FAN

Not much to update from yesterday really. I didn't see her most of the day as I was at a soccer tournament with 2 of my kids and she was elsewhere with our other child. She's still trying to play cold like if I am the one that wronged her. It's not really affecting me in the least, however my heart is broken. I don't show it in front of her, I just interact with my kids and other than that just keep to myself. Today again I will not be home until the evening so I won't see her until then. I can't say I am quite detached from her or the situation but feel o.k. from time to time - I don't know why though, what kills me is the thought of her dressed up nice on the arm of another man (or of course in bed with another man). When thinking of that, it feels like someone is reaching into my chest and squeezing my heart only if it was physically happening, at some point I'd die - the pain I feel just keeps going.


----------



## Disenchanted

Have you contacted an attorney yet? Get the ball rolling, limbo is the worst.


----------



## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> Have you contacted an attorney yet? Get the ball rolling, limbo is the worst.


Not quite yet, I work 7:30 to 4 so I'm at work now. I sit really close to a co-worker and don't really want other people to know my business. I will get the ball rolling when I get a chance later today.


----------



## Thorburn

SF-FAN said:


> Not much to update from yesterday really. I didn't see her most of the day as I was at a soccer tournament with 2 of my kids and she was elsewhere with our other child. She's still trying to play cold like if I am the one that wronged her. It's not really affecting me in the least, however my heart is broken. I don't show it in front of her, I just interact with my kids and other than that just keep to myself. Today again I will not be home until the evening so I won't see her until then. I can't say I am quite detached from her or the situation but feel o.k. from time to time - I don't know why though, what kills me is the thought of her dressed up nice on the arm of another man (or of course in bed with another man). When thinking of that, it feels like someone is reaching into my chest and squeezing my heart only if it was physically happening, at some point I'd die - the pain I feel just keeps going.


When I caught my wife in February I had the same thought, her playing cold and like I was the one who did wrong. I was wrong. She was scared, felt guilty, etc. 

THe feeling you have are similar to what I went through. It will get overwhelming for a while. Try to knuckle through it. You will have moments of strength and then get hit with a tidal wave. All I can say is ride these moments out the best you can. Go for a walk, a drive, do something. I found the best thing to do was talk to someone. Even calling the crisis line to talk to someone.


----------



## turnera

So what's your status? Is she giving up OM and committing to you? Divorcing you? Staying with him?


----------



## SF-FAN

Thorburn said:


> When I caught my wife in February I had the same thought, her playing cold and like I was the one who did wrong. I was wrong. She was scared, felt guilty, etc.
> 
> THe feeling you have are similar to what I went through. It will get overwhelming for a while. Try to knuckle through it. You will have moments of strength and then get hit with a tidal wave. All I can say is ride these moments out the best you can. Go for a walk, a drive, do something. I found the best thing to do was talk to someone. Even calling the crisis line to talk to someone.


Perfectly said. I know my wife is scared because she had a moment of weakness and told me she was BUT I don't think she feels guilty. She never likes to be the one at fault whether it be little things or big things (like an affair) so blameshifting is her defense mechanism. I believe that if she could turn the tables and find a good enough reason so that people saw me as the bad one and her as the battered wife, she would leave me.


----------



## SF-FAN

turnera said:


> So what's your status? Is she giving up OM and committing to you? Divorcing you? Staying with him?


I don't know what her plans are but I gave her the ultimatum of NC with the OM and told her that if there was a good chance her actions were going to happen again in the future, there is no point in even trying. I plan on being strong and moving on until if/when she proves otherwise.


----------



## SF-FAN

Is it me or is she using stupid little excuses to contact me and try to prove something. She just called me and asked if all the kids' sports schedules are in one place because she wants to make sure everything is in order and wants to be organized. She knows they are - why this BS call?


----------



## Disenchanted

She's probably panicking and wanted reassurance from you that you aren't serious. 

The faster you move the stronger the shock will be to her. She's probably questioning everything right now and doesn't believe that you have the strength to move forward. She can't stop thinking about you and your resolve. 

My STBXWW told me she wanted to work on the marriage when we were where you are now. We tried for a couple of weeks (a month) but she never committed 100%, it was just a fog for her.

The more decisive you are right now the faster you will get a result.


----------



## russell28

SF-FAN said:


> I'm on a roller coaster now. It's coming in moments. One moment I'll be o.k., the next it feels like my heart is in a shredder. I just don't understand how a human being can do this to another human being. 99% the A comes to light so why even do it.....especially when you have 3 kids that will look at you and your actions.
> 
> Oh regarding that, when we were arguing and she was on high blameshifting mode, she said that even though the kids would be devastated now, she'd explain it to them and they'd understand when they got older. Can you believe that?


I believe it, she's a known cheater.. you said you caught her before, right? The one you rug swept... 

She'll tell the kids that daddy was controlling and needy, so he pushed her away... So you let her know right now, that you'll tell them the truth, that mommy had a boyfriend, and that's why she made up a bunch of lies about daddy to explain her sneaking and lying after she got caught.
That mommy could have got a sexually transmitted disease and killed the daddy of her children, and you'll tell them how mommy manipulated you all to get her 'escape'.. Her escape from you, from the children, from the life you've built for your family.

Don't let her threaten you, anything she can throw at you, you have the counter for....

If she says "Just work related"

You say "show me the texts then, because you're a person that has a proven history of cheating, and now you're hiding stuff... and I'm supposed to believe you why?"

If she says "You were controlling"

You say 'obviously not controlling enough if you've been sneaking around on me again'

If she says "You are needy"

You say 'yea, because you've been showering another man in affection while giving me the cold shoulder, that all makes sense to me now that I know you're cheating again.. '

It's 100% her fault, get it? You never chose to cheat, she did.. you need to point that out any time it shifts to you.

Here's another thing to try.. next time she says kids, say something like 'yea, we should probably have them tested... the kids.. like dna tested to make sure they are mine, not that I don't love them or won't raise them, but I'd like to at least know.... '


----------



## harrybrown

Get the divorce filed as soon as possible. She will get the message.


----------



## SF-FAN

Right now I am just acting indifferent. I'm not overly happy but not moping around. There are only a few occasions that she will have to take the kids to their games/practices because most fall on days she has school so I don't understand her call to confirm the location of the schedules. She knows where they are first of all, second I am the main person that takes them.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

SF-FAN said:


> I don't know what her plans are but I gave her the ultimatum of NC with the OM and told her that if there was a good chance her actions were going to happen again in the future, there is no point in even trying. I plan on being strong and moving on until if/when she proves otherwise.


SF-Fan,

You're still giving her control of your life. You need to decide what you will accept or not accept. Make the decision that fits your needs and wants. If having a wife who can't decide between you and another man isn't acceptable to you. Than remove her from being the wife.


----------



## russell28

SF-FAN said:


> Right now I am just acting indifferent. I'm not overly happy but not moping around. There are only a few occasions that she will have to take the kids to their games/practices because most fall on days she has school so I don't understand her call to confirm the location of the schedules. She knows where they are first of all, second I am the main person that takes them.


She wants to pretend everything is normal, and see if you've cooled down... or if you're still upset over that cheating thing that you've been forcing her to do (by needing her to act like she's your wife).


----------



## Disenchanted

I suggest you file asap. You don't have to go through with it if things change, but as long as you do this:



SF-FAN said:


> Right now I am just acting indifferent. I'm not overly happy but not moping around.


you will be in terrible pain with no direction forward. Oh that is a hell that I will never endure again. Talk about heart crushing, to be around a spouse that doesn't have the slightest interest in your emotional well being.


----------



## SF-FAN

Dad&Hubby said:


> SF-Fan,
> 
> You're still giving her control of your life. You need to decide what you will accept or not accept. Make the decision that fits your needs and wants. If having a wife who can't decide between you and another man isn't acceptable to you. Than remove her from being the wife.


Very true. It's tough being in this position, a lot of second guessing and "what ifs."


----------



## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> I suggest you file asap. You don't have to go through with it if things change, but as long as you do this:
> 
> 
> 
> you will be in terrible pain with no direction forward. Oh that is a hell that I will never endure again. Talk about heart crushing, to be around a spouse that doesn't have the slightest interest in your emotional well being.


This is definitely a huge amount of pain that I don't wish on anyone else. If this has taught me anything is that I will never fall for this BS again with anyone and I will do my best to keep my kids from people that will do this to them.


----------



## russell28

SF-FAN said:


> This is definitely a huge amount of pain that I don't wish on anyone else. If this has taught me anything is that I will never fall for this BS again with anyone and I will do my best to keep my kids from people that will do this to them.


The pain will get easier to manage.. find someone to talk to that you can trust, you need a support system beyond this forum if you can reach out to family or friends. It's difficult to think clearly when your world is being ripped apart at the seams.


----------



## SF-FAN

russell28 said:


> She wants to pretend everything is normal, and see if you've cooled down... or if you're still upset over that cheating thing that you've been forcing her to do (by needing her to act like she's your wife).


It's definitely a mind game. At the end she says "o.k. thank you, I just want to keep the schedules organized because it's hard with 3 kids." Seeing as how I am the one taking them to 90% of their sports events, I know that you dumb broad!!!


----------



## russell28

SF-FAN said:


> It's definitely a mind game. At the end she says "o.k. thank you, I just want to keep the schedules organized because it's hard with 3 kids." Seeing as how I am the one taking them to 90% of their sports events, I know that you dumb broad!!!


Another example.. something like that, you'd answer with:

"Glad I could help, if you ever want to find out what's going on with me and the kids feel free to text me or call me.."


----------



## russell28

Another one..

Your welcome, I can imagine it's difficult for you to manage your schedules... 

I know, passive aggressive... but it's so hard to resist.


----------



## SF-FAN

I think she thinks I'd be lost without her - she's actually told me that before. I'd be extremely hurt especially seeing her with another guy but I'd live and eventually move on. I've told her that to so I think she's trying to give me a little sample of how things would be if were already divorced to see if I'll blink.


----------



## SF-FAN

russell28 said:


> Another one..
> 
> Your welcome, I can imagine it's difficult for you to manage your schedules...
> 
> I know, passive aggressive... but it's so hard to resist.


She's always said she knows how to play the game and has even coached some of my girl cousins when their husbands/boyfriends are giving them a hard time. I'm not dumb.


----------



## russell28

Let her know you're fine with it... show her you're realizing that you won't be lost without her. Get a gym membership, tell her she'll need to take the kids to sports while you run to the gym.. after you give her the divorce papers. Ask if she'd prefer to use a mediator.. to split stuff up, to keep the money away from lawyers.. start asking those types of questions, not what she wants for dinner.


----------



## Shaggy

SF-FAN said:


> He's the type of hot head that will cause further problems just to cause them. Though I can defend myself, he's the type that would come at me while I am with my kids. I'm still holding the CV card but at this time, I don't think it will do much.


Actually him confronting you, or him going off IS him loosing it, and is one of the reasons to do it. You want him unhinged, unhappy.

See right now he's a safe place for her to turn.

CV helps undermine him.


----------



## Disenchanted

Prepare for Filing Your Case - divorce_or_separation_selfhelp


----------



## russell28

SF-FAN said:


> She's always said she knows how to play the game and has even coached some of my girl cousins when their husbands/boyfriends are giving them a hard time. I'm not dumb.


In this game, you hold all the cards.... She has nothing. She knows you have all the cards. Don't blink.


----------



## TDSC60

You seem to be frozen into inaction by fear. "What if", "what does this mean", "why did she do that", "why did she say that", "what will she do if I *******".

My God man, take control of your life and stop worrying about her or what she might do, or what she says. She is certainly not worried about you or what you will do or what you will think. You justify your inaction by pretending to be ignoring her - in reality you are not. You are being paralyzed by fear of what might happen. 

I forget the movie but there is a great line in it "Fear is the mind killer". Very true.

You have to take a stand no matter what. Push the envelope. Otherwise she remains in control of your life and she is driving the bus. She wants you this way. Don't give it to her.


----------



## SF-FAN

TDSC60 said:


> You seem to be frozen into inaction by fear. "What if", "what does this mean", "why did she do that", "why did she say that", "what will she do if I *******".
> 
> My God man, take control of your life and stop worrying about her or what she might do, or what she says. She is certainly not worried about you or what you will do or what you will think. You justify your inaction by pretending to be ignoring her - in reality you are not. You are being paralyzed by fear of what might happen.
> 
> I forget the movie but there is a great line in it "Fear is the mind killer". Very true.
> 
> You have to take a stand no matter what. Push the envelope. Otherwise she remains in control of your life and she is driving the bus. She wants you this way. Don't give it to her.


Agreed, I am being paralyzed by fear of what might happen. I need to take action and not just sit around waiting.


----------



## SF-FAN

There is also another little hang up I have and though hoping you won't completely shred me to pieces, I hope to get some advice on how to get over it. I feel like getting a D will give her the freedom to then talk to the OM and whomever else so in turn she wins and regardless, I'm the loser in this whole thing. Is that true or is my mind just f'ing with me?


----------



## Disenchanted

Getting someone out of your life who treats you like a piece of dog sh!t is not "losing". It's time to take the focus off of her and put the focus on yourself.

Getting over it takes a lot of time, if she doesn't care about you you have to let go of her. You have no choice.

Individual counseling can help a lot, having a strong support group of friends is good. Occupy your time and your mind with things you like to do. Work on improving yourself. Get to the gym and workout, that helps tremendously. Start running, exert yourself physically. 

There is no magic cure, I'm a year since separation and still hurting like crazy from time to time. 

Infidelity is an extreme blow to the ego and your number one priority will be rebuilding that ego.

But the most important thing you have to do is just put one foot in front of the other and focus on the task at hand. 

Your task is to start treating yourself better then anyone else treats you, you deserve it and she sure as hell isn't doing it for you.


----------



## badmemory

SF-FAN said:


> There is also another little hang up I have and though hoping you won't completely shred me to pieces, I hope to get some advice on how to get over it. I feel like getting a D will give her the freedom to then talk to the OM and whomever else so in turn she wins and regardless, I'm the loser in this whole thing. Is that true or is my mind just f'ing with me?


If she wanted complete freedom that badly she'd be the one filing for divorce. That said, you've got to start the process of detachment. 

The best tool you can implement to start detaching is the 180, a hard 180. Eventually, if not immediately, the detachment will start working to reduce these feelings of worrying about what she's doing.

Your mindset should be that you're heading straight for divorce and will only reconsider it, if she presents as a transparent and remorseful wife. No one is saying that's easy. It's just one step in the process of doing the right thing for you.


----------



## SF-FAN

badmemory said:


> If she wanted complete freedom that badly she'd be the one filing for divorce. That said, you've got to start the process of detachment.
> 
> The best tool you can implement to start detaching is the 180, a hard 180. Eventually, if not immediately, the detachment will start working to reduce these feelings of worrying about what she's doing.
> 
> Your mindset should be that you're heading straight for divorce and will only reconsider it, if she presents as a transparent and remorseful wife. No one is saying that's easy. It's just one step in the process of doing the right thing for you.


That's where I am at. Getting the ball rolling. I dread telling my family and even her family because it will hurt them tremendously (maybe some more than others depending on how much of a monster she's made me out to be). Like I want to start crying at just the thought of telling them, how can she not even bat an eye if she's the one doing the damage and reason for all of this?


----------



## SF-FAN

Why is it fair for me to be at my desk crying while she is probably out talking or being with the OM happy as can be? Why is the wrongdoer the one that is happy?


----------



## russell28

SF-FAN said:


> There is also another little hang up I have and though hoping you won't completely shred me to pieces, I hope to get some advice on how to get over it. I feel like getting a D will give her the freedom to then talk to the OM and whomever else so in turn she wins and regardless, I'm the loser in this whole thing. Is that true or is my mind just f'ing with me?


She's talking to them either way... she just calls it 'work'... 

You're afraid you're going to lose her, but you've already lost her..


----------



## Thinkitthrough

Yes, its not fair, so why put up with? Hard 180, file, and let her be served. Right now she is in a fog, The affair has not run its course and sooner or later it will land on her that she has made a mistake. The odds that her relationship with the OM will last are small. Sooner or later she will be alone, and you will have moved on. Its not unusual to freeze up in a crisis, what matters is that you get yourself together and start to take action. Some day, you will be happy and she will be the one to cry.


----------



## badmemory

SF-FAN said:


> Why is it fair for me to be at my desk crying while she is probably out talking or being with the OM happy as can be? Why is the wrongdoer the one that is happy?


Being cheated on is similar to grieving for the loss of a loved one. But in this case, you're grieving for the loss of the wife you thought you had, not the one she turned out to be. It's important to be mindful of this as you endure all those stages of grief. 

And remember, the last stage is acceptance. You'll get there.


----------



## tom67

Call her mother let her know what is really going on.


----------



## SF-FAN

Thank you all - time to go try to learn in class though I can't even think straight. If it wasn't for all your advice, I'd be in a much worse place.


----------



## SF-FAN

tom67 said:


> Call her mother let her know what is really going on.


That's my ace in the hole - she is deathly afraid of what her mother is going to think so I am waiting for just the right time.


----------



## workindad

Op don't let fear make your decisions. 

If you divorce she is free to talk to go after any man including om. Who is the loser? You minus a cheating liar for a spouse or the new guy with her? 

Think about that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## awake1

SF-FAN said:


> There is also another little hang up I have and though hoping you won't completely shred me to pieces, I hope to get some advice on how to get over it. I feel like getting a D will give her the freedom to then talk to the OM and whomever else so in turn she wins and regardless, I'm the loser in this whole thing. Is that true or is my mind just f'ing with me?



Don't worry FWW will be having sex with OM, she already did. Don't worry about her emotional well being, because you're no longer obligated to help. Don't worry if you're the winner or loser, because you "won" by default. 

She gave you the chance to drop the millstone from your neck. She did you a favor by waking you up to the reality of who and what she is. It was obvious the little comments she made here and there over the years didn't get the point across. That she just doesn't like you much. 

It seems like she did everything but scream into your face who she is. 

She kept stepping up the message, until now it must be clear. 

Do you think she somehow wins by getting this guy who was having sex with a married woman? Do you think he wins getting a woman who's willing to cheat and sounds so entitled? 

In what world are you the loser in this situation? You've gotta jump through all kinds of logical hoops to turn the situation bad for you. 

Do you honestly think they'll ride off into the sunset and have a merry life together, leaving you behind to spend the rest of your life wallowing in pain? 

Try to remember this in perspective. You lived fine once upon a time without her, and can again. 

I'm going to bet like 99% of BHs and wives you'll end up with someone else down the road and smack your own forehead every time you remember it. You'll do it because you'll regret fretting over this woman and not moving on sooner. 

The only way you lose is to stay in this situation as it is, without any change. In all other likely outcomes you come out better than you were before. Single, reconciled, no matter what you're ahead.


----------



## Lovemytruck

awake1 said:


> Don't worry FWW will be having sex with OM, she already did. Don't worry about her emotional well being, because you're no longer obligated to help. Don't worry if you're the winner or loser, because you "won" by default.
> 
> She gave you the chance to drop the millstone from your neck. She did you a favor by waking you up to the reality of who and what she is. It was obvious the little comments she made here and there over the years didn't get the point across. That she just doesn't like you much.
> 
> It seems like she did everything but scream into your face who she is.
> 
> She kept stepping up the message, until now it must be clear.
> 
> Do you think she somehow wins by getting this guy who was having sex with a married woman? Do you think he wins getting a woman who's willing to cheat and sounds so entitled?
> 
> In what world are you the loser in this situation? You've gotta jump through all kinds of logical hoops to turn the situation bad for you.
> 
> Do you honestly think they'll ride off into the sunset and have a merry life together, leaving you behind to spend the rest of your life wallowing in pain?
> 
> Try to remember this in perspective. You lived fine once upon a time without her, and can again.
> 
> I'm going to bet like 99% of BHs and wives you'll end up with someone else down the road and smack your own forehead every time you remember it. You'll do it because you'll regret fretting over this woman and not moving on sooner.
> 
> The only way you lose is to stay in this situation as it is, without any change. In all other likely outcomes you come out better than you were before. Single, reconciled, no matter what you're ahead.


:iagree:

This is worth your time to read again.


----------



## kenmoore14217

herein lies your problem:

That's my ace in the hole - she is deathly afraid of what her mother is going to think *so I am waiting for just the right time*.


----------



## mahike

SF Fan I have to agree here. You need to expose this to her family and yours. The sooner the better and do not let her know you are going to do this.

You mentioned you have kids. If you are going to R then you need honesty all around and sunlight kills an A. If you are going to D then you need her parents the grandparents of your kids to know what and who their daughter is.


----------



## vi_bride04

The sooner you wait on exposure, the more her story and words will be the truth vs. what the actual truth is!

She will use the time to get people on her side....I mean you are the big nasty jerk that caused her to cheat in the first place, remember?


----------



## Bugz Bunny

Hi SF-FAN...I am following your story since the beginning and I am really sorry for your situation but damn man,start doing something,start already fighting for yourself...

She cheated the first time and you did nothing,you didnt expose...now she is cheating the second time and you are again doing nothing...you are not exposing to friends and family,you are not using the CV...

I dont get what are you waiting for ? It wont go away by ignoring and being passive about it... start fighting for yourself,start respecting yourself...stop playing little games with her by ignoring her because she doesnt care about you at the moment and stop living in fear...

There is no and never will be some special or right moment that you are waiting for exposure to MIL,CV or work...exposure is something you do immediately and then you implement the 180 when everything is exposed...You first expose and take control of your life and family and then you go in "180 mode" and relax and let her deal with the **** that she created...

It doesnt matter if people believe her story,you just go and tell your side to anyone that matters in your lives and dont worry about other people...actually others are not stupid and after you tell your side of the story everyone with at least a little brain will figure out who is telling the truth...

Please man up and start showing yourself and your kids that you will not tolerate disrespect...Stop allowing her to humiliate you...

And I am sorry for being so harsh but its just that I am following this from the beginning and you are not moving anywhere although people on this forum are giving you great advice...

I hope it all will play out good for you and your children in the end

Good Luck


----------



## SF-FAN

Regardless of how I feel, I guess it has to happen.


----------



## tom67

Bring the affair to the light of day it will be a relief.


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## Vulcan2013

tom67 said:


> Bring the affair to the light of day it will be a relief.


:iagree:


----------



## Dyokemm

EXPOSE...this is now 29 pages of posters telling you this.

You did not do it 4 years ago and look where it got you.

This will never end if you do not take this step.


----------



## turnera

If your wife won't stop cheating, telling her mother MIGHT get her to stop. What the hell do you think you are waiting for?


----------



## bfree

turnera said:


> If your wife won't stop cheating, telling her mother MIGHT get her to stop. What the hell do you think you are waiting for?


YES!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## vi_bride04

*Re: Re: In a hard place in my marriage*



Dyokemm said:


> EXPOSE...this is now 29 pages of posters telling you this.
> 
> You did not do it 4 years ago and look where it got you.
> 
> This will never end if you do not take this step.


QFT!!!!!!!!

You are going through infidelity AGAIN....learn from mistakes of the past and use the knowledge to your advantage

Use other posters knowledge too....


----------



## 3putt

turnera said:


> If your wife won't stop cheating, telling her mother MIGHT get her to stop. What the hell do you think you are waiting for?


Fear.


----------



## SF-FAN

If I tell her mom, she will not stop. 4 years ago when I tried to tell her mom that I suspected something was going on, her mom showed up at our house in the middle of the night and they had a huge argument. She kicked her mother out and they did not speak for a very long time. She has held that against me since then. If I tell her mom, it is the nail in the coffin that is why I say I am waiting for just the right time.


----------



## tom67

SF-FAN said:


> If I tell her mom, she will not stop. 4 years ago when I tried to tell her mom that I suspected something was going on, her mom showed up at our house in the middle of the night and they had a huge argument. She kicked her mother out and they did not speak for a very long time. She has held that against me since then. If I tell her mom, it is the nail in the coffin that is why I say I am waiting for just the right time.


She is banging another dude, what do you care if she get's mad. I'm out good luck you are going to need it.


----------



## turnera

So... you'd rather sit back and wait for your wife to get done screwing another man than get her upset at you?


----------



## Dyokemm

OP,

You are making choices out of fear of losing her.

She is already gone at this point.

You quite literally have nothing left to lose at this point by blowing her affairs, both past and present, up. 

Expose to all family, friends, and her work since s**tbag is a coworker.

Make her finally face the consequences of her cheating.

And kick the s**t out of POSOM if he comes around you or your kids at all. He has made veiled threats, so you will not face any legal repercussions for defending yourself.

In fact, you might get the added joy of pressing charges against this arrogant a** and watching him get thrown in jail.


----------



## livinfree

SF-FAN said:


> If I tell her mom, it is the nail in the coffin that is why I say I am waiting for just the right time.


The coffin has already been nailed shut and buried bro.


----------



## Refuse to be played

It would be in my best interest to stop reading because I'm about to give myself a concussion doing this :slap::banghead:

Looks like someone else needs a redwood instead of a 2x4 to the head.


----------



## tom67

Refuse to be played said:


> It would be in my best interest to stop reading because I'm about to give myself a concussion doing this :slap::banghead:
> 
> Looks like someone else needs a redwood instead of a 2x4 to the head.


:iagree:


----------



## Shaggy

So you are afraid of the guy she's banging,

You are afraid of her

You are afraid of making her angry

You are afraid of tell the mom.

Do you see the common problem here.

Your wife is cheating because she thinks she can do whatever she wants and get away with it. And so far she's right.

What are you gonna do about changing this game?


----------



## nuclearnightmare

SF-FAN said:


> Why is it fair for me to be at my desk crying while she is probably out talking or being with the OM happy as can be? Why is the wrongdoer the one that is happy?


OP
She is not headed for happiness in her life. In fact unless she gets a ton of serious therapy her course is set. She will never have a lasting marriage or relationship with a quality individual -- she's just not capable of it. Every post you make on her describes another behavior of one of the "class B" personality disorders. Read about them.

stop the heartbreak over her! She is your #1 enemy, maybe the most serious enemy you've ever had. She'll plan all sorts of false attacks on you; attacks on your character and other stuff. She'll do this with no guilt whatsoever - that's her advantage in life, the sociopaths advantage (if she's not a sociopath she sounds like something close to it)

So God [email protected]@&$it OP!! STOP VIEWING HER LIKE SOME KIND OF PRIZE! Start thinking of her as exactly what she is and make your own plans to divorce her and counter what she's ready to throw at you. Store up your ammunition and get ready to blow her away! Instead of her doing that to you....


----------



## SF-FAN

So I dropped the bomb and told the MIL. Of course she was furious. When I got home, the wife was at her MIL with the kids and they didn't get back until 10:30 which is not normal on a school night. When I got home, dinner was ready, which seemed odd to me because we haven't spoken. When she finally got home with the kids and the kids had gone to bed, she said "I know I am a horrible wife and partner and I need to continue seeing my counselor for that but I go above and beyond for my kids" as she started crying. All I told her was, "I really have nothing to say" and that was it.


----------



## rrrbbbttt

SF-FAN said:


> So I dropped the bomb and told the MIL. Of course she was furious. When I got home, the wife was at her MIL with the kids and they didn't get back until 10:30 which is not normal on a school night. When I got home, dinner was ready, which seemed odd to me because we haven't spoken. When she finally got home with the kids and the kids had gone to bed, she said "I know I am a horrible wife and partner and I need to continue seeing my counselor for that but I go above and beyond for my kids" as she started crying. All I told her was,* "I really have nothing to say" and that was it*.


:banghead::banghead::banghead:


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

SF-FAN said:


> There is also another little hang up I have and though hoping you won't completely shred me to pieces, I hope to get some advice on how to get over it. I feel like getting a D will give her the freedom to then talk to the OM and whomever else so in turn she wins and regardless, I'm the loser in this whole thing. Is that true or is my mind just f'ing with me?


How you will be a looser when you kick out a cheater, liar and back stabber out of your life?

You are a looser only when you allow a cheater to be there in your life knowing what truly they are.


----------



## SF-FAN

rrrbbbttt said:


> :banghead::banghead::banghead:


She wanted me to engage in a conversation with her and reassure her that she's a great mother. I'm not. She not only put me in harms way but also our children. I am turning cold on her.


----------



## Disenchanted

SF-FAN said:


> I am turning cold on her.


Good.

She is now trying the guilt thing and the self pity thing "Oh I know I am a lousy partner and wife blah blah blah feel bad for me".

They do all kinds of crazy things. Expect rage soon and scathing blame and hate.

What did the attorney say?


----------



## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> Good.
> 
> She is now trying the guilt thing and the self pity thing "Oh I know I am a lousy partner and wife blah blah blah feel bad for me".
> 
> They do all kinds of crazy things. Expect rage soon and scathing blame and hate.
> 
> What did the attorney say?


I left a message and am yet to hear back. There are not many divorce attorneys where I live so I am hoping to get a good one.


----------



## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> Good.
> 
> She is now trying the guilt thing and the self pity thing "Oh I know I am a lousy partner and wife blah blah blah feel bad for me".
> 
> They do all kinds of crazy things. Expect rage soon and scathing blame and hate.
> 
> What did the attorney say?


I've seen a bit of everything so far. Her main goal is to shift the blame off of what she did. She's mad at me because I called her out about not loving the kids if she was having an affair so that's her angle right now. Trying to be cold with me for making her look like an unfit mother.


----------



## BrockLanders

SF-FAN said:


> So I dropped the bomb and told the MIL. Of course she was furious. When I got home, the wife was at her MIL with the kids and they didn't get back until 10:30 which is not normal on a school night. When I got home, dinner was ready, which seemed odd to me because we haven't spoken. When she finally got home with the kids and the kids had gone to bed, she said "I know I am a horrible wife and partner and I need to continue seeing my counselor for that but I go above and beyond for my kids" as she started crying. All I told her was, "I really have nothing to say" and that was it.


I love when people take credit for the stuff you're supposed to do to obfuscate seeing the things they don't do.


----------



## SF-FAN

BrockLanders said:


> I love when people take credit for the stuff you're supposed to do to obfuscate seeing the things they don't do.


She's grasping at whatever she can right now.


----------



## Ovid

SF-FAN said:


> I left a message and am yet to hear back. *There are not many divorce attorneys where I live* so I am hoping to get a good one.


Jackpot!!!

Go see as many as you can. Any lawyer you see your wife can't use.


Be wary of a lawyer that doesn't call back. They may have too many cases, or they may be stalling because they were already hired by your WW.


----------



## SF-FAN

Ovid said:


> Jackpot!!!
> 
> Go see as many as you can. Any lawyer you see your wife can't use.
> 
> 
> Be wary of a lawyer that doesn't call back. They may have too many cases, or they may be stalling because they were already hired by your WW.


My wife has not even brought up the D word and I know for a fact is reluctant to go to court. When I initially exposed her and told her I was done and that everything would be exposed in court, she said that she was not going to ask for child support and that there was no need to go to court. Since I've worked for attorneys for @ 15 years, I know my way around the legal field. She does not have the money for an attorney and I know for a fact her mother will not give her a dime because no matter how much she may make me look bad, her daughter was unfaithful and I am a good father - my MIL knows that.


----------



## Ovid

You keep dancing around all of the advice you are being given. Your case has so much potential to turn around but you just refuse to take the required action. I wish you luck, and hope everything works out for you, but I'm expecting it not to. Good luck. I hope everything works out for the best.


----------



## SF-FAN

Ovid said:


> You keep dancing around all of the advice you are being given. Your case has so much potential to turn around but you just refuse to take the required action. I wish you luck, and hope everything works out for you, but I'm expecting it not to. Good luck. I hope everything works out for the best.


I am telling you guys what I am doing and giving you insight on what she is doing. All of your advice is appreciated and I am trying my hardest to follow it but it's starting to feel like I am getting talked at and demeaned if I don't do things right away or at the moment they are advised. I came here for support and advice, not to feel bullied into taking action.


----------



## turnera

So, you're not trying to get her to stop cheating and fix the marriage? Just going straight for divorce? Whose idea is that, yours or hers?


----------



## SF-FAN

turnera said:


> So, you're not trying to get her to stop cheating and fix the marriage? Just going straight for divorce? Whose idea is that, yours or hers?


If the marriage is salvageable I would be willing to try but I am not getting any indication from her that she want to so on the advice of many in here, I am starting the divorce proceedings and have told my MIL about her actions. Apparently I am not doing it quick enough though.


----------



## Disenchanted

SF-FAN,

Don't forget there are a lot of different posters helping you out here. Not all advice works for everyone, you take what you can use and leave the rest.

If you are resolved to D then you have no rush and no pressure. As long as you are actually resolved. Personally I wouldn't want to live in limbo hell and would get going as fast as possible on that to get out of limbo ASAP.

If you are hoping to snap your wayward wife out of her fog you are doing a terrible job. 

I'm assuming, in the advice I've given you, that you aren't going to tolerate her BS anymore and are going to divorce her ass just as fast as you can.

If you are divorcing her, then exposing doesn't matter, CV doesn't matter, nothing matters except positioning yourself as well as you can legally and moving on.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: In a hard place in my marriage*



SF-FAN said:


> I am telling you guys what I am doing and giving you insight on what she is doing. All of your advice is appreciated and I am trying my hardest to follow it but it's starting to feel like I am getting talked at and demeaned if I don't do things right away or at the moment they are advised. I came here for support and advice, not to feel bullied into taking action.


SF, don't get all worked up about it. Most posters here are just looking out for you. Most of us made serious mistakes which cost us in the long run. If some seem impatient it's because they were where you are right now and screwed up and don't want you to make the same mistakes they did. It's kind of like watching a movie where the person is about to go into the basement. You know what's down in the basement and you scream "don't go in the basement!" But of course they always do don't they? We're just trying to get you to recognize the monster in the basement before it has a chance to tear your guts out.


----------



## happyman64

And SF

Sometimes filing for D kills the Affair and snaps her out of the fog.

Sometimes not.

No one is trying to rush you or make decisions for you. I know it seems that way sometimes and that is normal.

Though most people that have responded to you have been in your shoes not that long ago.....

Patience.

HM64


----------



## Tobyboy

I think your doing great dude! I think she's on verge of breaking down. Keep up with the 180, get your ducks in a row. 
I might has missed it, but has she confessed to physically cheating yet?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

The key to reconciling is ending the affair permanently. If that isn't done or possible reconciliation won't work. Is she still in contact with him? If she says she is not how is she proving that? That's step #1. If you are leaning toward divorce then the affair doesn't matter in the long run. It's whatever you decide that matters. Do you want to reconcile our do you feel that you need to get away from her?


----------



## Chaparral

SF-FAN said:


> Why is it fair for me to be at my desk crying while she is probably out talking or being with the OM happy as can be? Why is the wrongdoer the one that is happy?


She's out happy as can be because you haven't outed them. Put his ass on cheaterville. Let them wring their hands, let them worry about what's going to happen. Let them worry about their reps.You and many others come here and become paralyzed be worry . Spread it around. No cheater wants the light shining on their sordid affair, all the fun disappears.
If the om does anything at all, get a restraining order to keep him away from your family.

EVERY second you put off doing anything makes things worse. You are in a hole.............STOP DIGGING.


----------



## Ovid

No intent to bully you into doing anything. I just noticed a trend of skirting around advice you don't want to follow. You don't have to follow it if you don't want to, or don't think you should. When you skirt around it it looks more like you're avoiding it...


----------



## Thorburn

SF-Fan. Take the advice for what it is, advice. You are the one who need a plan of action. Sit back and think. Take a breath.

1. You have given your wife too much power and it is all in your mind. You say she is the happy one, the one having fun, the one talking with the OM, etc. Let her go. Stop allowing her to rent space in your head. Seriously. Let her go. Stop trying to analyze her thoughts. No one really knows what is going on in her head. My wife was miserable on the inside after I exposed her. I thought she was happy, etc. I went down the same path you are taking right now. Similar thoughts about the WS. Stop it. Start focusing on you and let her go.

2. You may be responsible for her legal fees. Keep that in mind. Don't bring it up, don't discuss it with her. Learn all you can about D in your state, child support, spousal support, alimony, division of assets, etc.

3. Sit down and write out your end game. What do you really want? Then take the steps necessary to get there.

4. Start the 180 and start it again.

5. Stop trying to grasp at straws. She made supper one night. Big whoop. You are looking at hope in all the wrong places, her and her actions. Stop this. I am waiting for you to say, hey guys, she smiled at me today, what does that mean? Nothing she does right now means a whole lot of beans. Start detaching big time. 

6. When you talk to her it should only be about the kids and bills. 

7. Watch what you say and to whom you say it. Don't reveal your legal options, D plans ect to her family or to her. 

8. Regroup. Go back and reread your thread. Pull out the advice that others have given you and look at their thoughts and use their advice to come up with a plan of action.

9. No matter what you think, know that you are wounded, and your thought process is diminished. 

10. Typically you can't kick her out.

11. If she is saying she does not want to go to court use this as an advantage. Ask her what she wants. If you can simply mediate this with one lawyer (yours) you will be in a great place. You may be able to get good terms. She may not want this to get messier.

12. You are letting life lead you. Put on the breaks and get control over your life.

13. And above all, let her go.


----------



## Ovid

Also. Yes we do get frustrated when you are slow to act. It's because the faster you end the A and secure your position the better your chances of saving your M.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Ovid said:


> Jackpot!!!
> 
> Go see as many as you can. Any lawyer you see your wife can't use.
> 
> 
> Be wary of a lawyer that doesn't call back. They may have too many cases, or they may be stalling because they were already hired by your WW.


This is KEY!

Once you have a consultation, that lawyer can't represent your wife. So you have a BUNCH of initial consultations with the best attorneys in your area.


----------



## Disenchanted

Ovid said:


> Also. Yes we do get frustrated when you are slow to act. It's because the faster you end the A and secure your position the better your chances of saving your M.


Just don't forget, she's already been caught and this was her response:



SF-FAN said:


> She is putting up a front like do what you want, I'm not happy with you so I don't care. On top of that, I doubt contact is going to stop with OM.


As long as that's the case, OP has nothing to work with. 

See Thorburn's advice above, it's solid advice.


----------



## SF-FAN

Thorburn said:


> SF-Fan. Take the advice for what it is, advice. You are the one who need a plan of action. Sit back and think. Take a breath.
> 
> 1. You have given your wife too much power and it is all in your mind. You say she is the happy one, the one having fun, the one talking with the OM, etc. Let her go. Stop allowing her to rent space in your head. Seriously. Let her go. Stop trying to analyze her thoughts. No one really knows what is going on in her head. My wife was miserable on the inside after I exposed her. I thought she was happy, etc. I went down the same path you are taking right now. Similar thoughts about the WS. Stop it. Start focusing on you and let her go.
> 
> 2. You may be responsible for her legal fees. Keep that in mind. Don't bring it up, don't discuss it with her. Learn all you can about D in your state, child support, spousal support, alimony, division of assets, etc.
> 
> 3. Sit down and write out your end game. What do you really want? Then take the steps necessary to get there.
> 
> 4. Start the 180 and start it again.
> 
> 5. Stop trying to grasp at straws. She made supper one night. Big whoop. You are looking at hope in all the wrong places, her and her actions. Stop this. I am waiting for you to say, hey guys, she smiled at me today, what does that mean? Nothing she does right now means a whole lot of beans. Start detaching big time.
> 
> 6. When you talk to her it should only be about the kids and bills.
> 
> 7. Watch what you say and to whom you say it. Don't reveal your legal options, D plans ect to her family or to her.
> 
> 8. Regroup. Go back and reread your thread. Pull out the advice that others have given you and look at their thoughts and use their advice to come up with a plan of action.
> 
> 9. No matter what you think, know that you are wounded, and your thought process is diminished.
> 
> 10. Typically you can't kick her out.
> 
> 11. If she is saying she does not want to go to court use this as an advantage. Ask her what she wants. If you can simply mediate this with one lawyer (yours) you will be in a great place. You may be able to get good terms. She may not want this to get messier.
> 
> 12. You are letting life lead you. Put on the breaks and get control over your life.
> 
> 13. And above all, let her go.


Though it may not seem like it, this is what I am doing. I could care less she made dinner, I was just giving a status of what happened last night. It may not seem like it but I have her by the balls and she knows it - she hates it. She does not want to go to court because I told her I was going to subpoena the text messages, so I have the legal advantage, she already confirmed that. I cannot kick her out because it will put my kids in a bad position and I care only about my kids - not her. She does not make enough and I don't want them living in some dingy apt. even though they will be with me part of the time.

I've started the 180 and have detached myself somewhat. I see her as a liar, cheater, manipulator and do not find her attractive in any way shape or form. Right now, I am moving on for me and my kids.


----------



## SF-FAN

On top of that I am angry, hurt, upset, confused and am facing a new life because the one I knew for 8 years was a sham. This is a very hard time.


----------



## Ovid

I didn't forget. Just saw OP being slow to drag out the bigger guns. We all know the faster he acts the better the chances OP has. The waiting game only starts after OP has used his options up.

Maybe I'm spending too much time on TAM. I think I'll give myself a self imposed ban for a week...


----------



## Disenchanted

Does your company have an Employee Assistance Program? A lot of companies do and offer counseling for situations like this one. 

Are you able to see a therapist if not? Does your medical cover it?


----------



## SF-FAN

Nevertheless, it is surprising to me how much I don't find her attractive anymore. Though she is an attractive person physically, I only see her filth that is inside her. Though I still hurt and would probably be devastated to actually see her with someone else, I am proud of myself for feeling detached. Last A, I did not want to lose her whatsoever. This one, I am just done.


----------



## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> Does your company have an Employee Assistance Program? A lot of companies do and offer counseling for situations like this one.
> 
> Are you able to see a therapist if not? Does your medical cover it?


My previous insurance did, I am going to have to check on my current insurance.


----------



## Disenchanted

SF-FAN said:


> My previous insurance did, I am going to have to check on my current insurance.


Maybe just talk to your HR dept?


----------



## Thorburn

SF-FAN said:


> Though it may not seem like it, this is what I am doing. I could care less she made dinner, I was just giving a status of what happened last night. It may not seem like it but I have her by the balls and she knows it - she hates it. She does not want to go to court because I told her I was going to subpoena the text messages, so I have the legal advantage, she already confirmed that. I cannot kick her out because it will put my kids in a bad position and I care only about my kids - not her. She does not make enough and I don't want them living in some dingy apt. even though they will be with me part of the time.
> 
> I've started the 180 and have detached myself somewhat. I see her as a liar, cheater, manipulator and do not find her attractive in any way shape or form. Right now, I am moving on for me and my kids.



Perhaps now would be the time to sit down with the wife and discuss terms.

Don't play your hand.
Don't threaten her.
Don't argue.
Don't belittle her.
Don't say, you created this mess, or this is your fault.
Don't make slide remarks.



Simply ask her what do you want to end this marriage? And listen to her. If she agrees to favorable terms write them down and ask her if this is what she wants. Ask her if you can get an attorney to come up with these terms. If she agrees then do it.

Don't bring up or ask her if she has an attorney or if she will be getting one.
Don't agree to any of the terms. Not one. Don't disagree with the terms. If you find things objectionable, just tell her you will have to think about it. 

If I am reading you correctly you have come a long way. There are things I am sure you want to say to her and perhaps you have already shared. Be careful. Start being nice to her or at least civil and keep it that way.

Keep your end game in mind. If it is D then you want the most favorable terms you can get.


----------



## russell28

SF-FAN said:


> So I dropped the bomb and told the MIL. Of course she was furious. When I got home, the wife was at her MIL with the kids and they didn't get back until 10:30 which is not normal on a school night. When I got home, dinner was ready, which seemed odd to me because we haven't spoken. When she finally got home with the kids and the kids had gone to bed, she said "I know I am a horrible wife and partner and I need to continue seeing my counselor for that but I go above and beyond for my kids" as she started crying. All I told her was, "I really have nothing to say" and that was it.


Any time my wife tried that stuff, I pointed out that being a horrible wife and partner isn't setting a great example for the kids.. them not having loving parents isn't a good thing, and sneaking and lying to get away from your family isn't exactly great role modeling... not to mention the risk of killing your children's father or giving him a sexually transmitted disease... I'd counter any of her excuses or blame shifting with the reality of the situation. Right now you're feeling disgusted with her, she needs to feel disgusted with herself, and it's up to you to show her the way... She could interpret 'nothing to say' as, 'you win, i've got nothing'.. when in fact, you have quite a bit. So one or two lines to counter any of her bull won't hurt.. don't be mean, don't call names, don't raise your voice.. just don't be afraid to point out the absurdities of the things she says.


----------



## Thorburn

SF-FAN said:


> Nevertheless, it is surprising to me how much I don't find her attractive anymore. Though she is an attractive person physically, I only see her filth that is inside her. Though I still hurt and would probably be devastated to actually see her with someone else, I am proud of myself for feeling detached. Last A, I did not want to lose her whatsoever. This one, I am just done.


SF-FAN - part of detachment is allowing her to be with whoever she wants to be with and you being OK with it.

I have been exactly where you are in your thoughts, feelings, etc. 

Get the devastation thought of her being with someone out of your head. It took me a few weeks to do it. I got there. I got to the point of where I did not care who she was with. I was done.

I will admit that I am now in R as my wife came completely clean and repented. 

But the point I am trying to make is I was done with my wife. I no longer cared who she would be with. The reality is that your WS will more than likely be with someone. Try to work on getting those unconfortable feelings out of your thinking. 

Can't imagine her being with someone? She will be and I suspect in time you will be also.

I have been there. Been in your thoughts. You will make it. As you detach, you will find yourself coming back, and it at those times you work harder on detaching and remember what she has done. The process is not an easy one, but you will make it.


----------



## vi_bride04

SF-FAN said:


> On top of that I am angry, hurt, upset, confused and am facing a new life because the one I knew for 8 years was a sham. This is a very hard time.


You may have known her for 8 years, but the sham was only for 4...the 4 yrs before she cheated the first time.

She showed you exactly who she was 4 yrs ago with her first affair and she continues to be that person.


----------



## SF-FAN

Thorburn said:


> Perhaps now would be the time to sit down with the wife and discuss terms.
> 
> Don't play your hand.
> Don't threaten her.
> Don't argue.
> Don't belittle her.
> Don't say, you created this mess, or this is your fault.
> Don't make slide remarks.
> 
> 
> 
> Simply ask her what do you want to end this marriage? And listen to her. If she agrees to favorable terms write them down and ask her if this is what she wants. Ask her if you can get an attorney to come up with these terms. If she agrees then do it.
> 
> Don't bring up or ask her if she has an attorney or if she will be getting one.
> Don't agree to any of the terms. Not one. Don't disagree with the terms. If you find things objectionable, just tell her you will have to think about it.
> 
> If I am reading you correctly you have come a long way. There are things I am sure you want to say to her and perhaps you have already shared. Be careful. Start being nice to her or at least civil and keep it that way.
> 
> Keep your end game in mind. If it is D then you want the most favorable terms you can get.


I have been civil, just indifferent. Though I hate what she did, I hate arguing and the kids hate seeing us argue. If this does go the full D, I will hate her for a long time and I do see myself getting angry during conversations - it's hard not to. I am going to try hard but I just feel that since she had the A, she should not be treated kindly.

I am not the type that will be friends with her or even give a rats about her life. I have a friend that got cheated on by his wife and she ended up marrying the OM and now they are all good friends, he even stays the night at their house some times. That will never be me!!


----------



## SF-FAN

Thorburn said:


> SF-FAN - part of detachment is allowing her to be with whoever she wants to be with and you being OK with it.
> 
> I have been exactly where you are in your thoughts, feelings, etc.
> 
> Get the devastation thought of her being with someone out of your head. It took me a few weeks to do it. I got there. I got to the point of where I did not care who she was with. I was done.
> 
> I will admit that I am now in R as my wife came completely clean and repented.
> 
> But the point I am trying to make is I was done with my wife. I no longer cared who she would be with. The reality is that your WS will more than likely be with someone. Try to work on getting those unconfortable feelings out of your thinking.
> 
> Can't imagine her being with someone? She will be and I suspect in time you will be also.
> 
> I have been there. Been in your thoughts. You will make it. As you detach, you will find yourself coming back, and it at those times you work harder on detaching and remember what she has done. The process is not an easy one, but you will make it.


What is the best way to do that? Thoughts of our intimates moments but with another man creep in my head and that's what kills me. (yes even though she has already done it).


----------



## Disenchanted

SF-FAN said:


> What is the best way to do that? Thoughts of our intimates moments but with another man creep in my head and that's what kills me. (yes even though she has already done it).


For me was deciding to divorce and acting on it.

If you are still harboring hopes of reconciliation, those thoughts will linger.

MOVE ON.


----------



## Thorburn

SF-FAN said:


> What is the best way to do that? Thoughts of our intimates moments but with another man creep in my head and that's what kills me. (yes even though she has already done it).


Dealing with her in anger will not help a thing at this point. I have been there. My anger got out of control. We all get it. You know what she did, she knows what she did. Leave it. If you are headed down the road to D, then work hard on being civil. Yea, you can be the man. I was. It will do you no good. Just be civil, watch your tongue. She is no longer worth your wrath. 

Yea the fact that those mind movies creep you out. You will be haunted for a while. I still am from time to time. They will diminish over time. 

Some ways to deal with these things is try to replace them with other thoughts as soon as they come in. Try to make their actions funny, him having a mole on his penis, etc. Others have suggested other ideas. Some of these things helped me but never took them away. I find that over time these thoughts diminish.


----------



## SF-FAN

Thorburn said:


> Dealing with her in anger will not help a thing at this point. I have been there. My anger got out of control. We all get it. You know what she did, she knows what she did. Leave it. If you are headed down the road to D, then work hard on being civil. Yea, you can be the man. I was. It will do you no good. Just be civil, watch your tongue. She is no longer worth your wrath.
> 
> Yea the fact that those mind movies creep you out. You will be haunted for a while. I still am from time to time. They will diminish over time.
> 
> Some ways to deal with these things is try to replace them with other thoughts as soon as they come in. Try to make their actions funny, him having a mole on his penis, etc. Others have suggested other ideas. Some of these things helped me but never took them away. I find that over time these thoughts diminish.


I guess I just don't want her to feel like she just got off easy. I know I'm not supposed to care but life is not fair. Who's to say she doesn't find a rich, handsome Dr. and lives happily ever after. She won't feel any type of punishment for messing up this marriage.


----------



## Disenchanted

You should write up a letter to Santa too to make sure he doesn't bring her any presents.

MOVE ON


----------



## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> You should write up a letter to Santa too to make sure he doesn't bring her any presents.
> 
> MOVE ON


You know what, that's why serial cheaters don't stop cheating. So what, their spouse divorces them with little to no consequences. They move on and continue cheating...NO, she needs to feel like she did something wrong and she's not going to get away with it just like that.


----------



## Shaggy

Why are you and her talking like she takes the kids when you D.

Tell her you plan on seeking full custody, and that the minimum you will ever accept if 50/50 with them living with you during your 50%.

Along with this, you need to go after the affair and kill it off. Even f you are going D. The affair gives her emotional support and makes her think she has options and the upper hand here. That she will D you, date the OM, and you'll baby sit her kids when she wants a weekend alone with the POSOM.

Destroy the affair, expose the OM on cheaterville.com as a way to make him being with her personally costly for him. Get him upset at her, and to dump her.


----------



## turnera

SF-FAN said:


> You know what, that's why serial cheaters don't stop cheating. So what, their spouse divorces them with little to no consequences. They move on and continue cheating...NO, she needs to feel like she did something wrong and she's not going to get away with it just like that.


You could always put her on Cheaterville.


----------



## Thorburn

SF-FAN said:


> I guess I just don't want her to feel like she just got off easy. I know I'm not supposed to care but life is not fair. Who's to say she doesn't find a rich, handsome Dr. and lives happily ever after. She won't feel any type of punishment for messing up this marriage.


SF-Fan. What I have been trying to get you to focus on is this. Stop this thinking. I was there. It does you no good. It stinks. You are not detaching. I know what you are doing and I did the same thing.

Let her go. Let her go.

What if Brad Pitt discovers her and they fall madly in love and she becomes, Mrs. Pitt?

You aren't seeing the big picture. All you are focusing on is her, her future, her life. She is controlling your thoughts.

And don't give a rat's arse about whether she got away with anything.

If you stick your head in a tub of water and start screaming, who will hear you? Only you. And only you can stop her from renting space in your head. You are allowing her to control your thoughts and I will keep hammering this, stop it.

You are in the pity party, woe is me mode. We all get it. But stop lingering there.

Realize this. Your wife is a POS. She is not worth it. Until you detach we are going to continue to watch your heartache. 

I will say it again, LET HER GO.


----------



## carmen ohio

Dear SF-FAN,

You have received some really good advice (especially from Thorburn) and I'm glad to see that you finally seem to understand it.

What most BSs often don't understand until it is too late is that, when confronted with a WS who shows no signs of remorse or desire to R, the only rational response is to file for D. This is true whether the BS still hopes to save the marriage or actually wants to end it.

In a marriage, the only real leverage that one partner has in dealing with a recalcitrant other partner is the willingness to end the marriage if the bad behavior doesn't stop. Sometimes, the mere threat of D is sufficient but, if the threat proves insufficient, starting the D process ultimately becomes imperative. As has been pointed out on TAM/CWI many times, filing for D does not automatically mean the end of the marriage. Sometimes it's just what is required to cause the WS to come out of the "fog," feel remorse and start R with the BS.

How many marriages could have been saved and how much infidelity avoided if, the first time one of the marriage partners started to engage in inappropriate behavior, the other had said, "if you continue to do this, I will D you because I will not be married to someone who does not respect me, our family and our marriage."

Maybe I'm preaching to the choir; maybe you finally understand this. If so, please also understand that the sooner you get the ball rolling, the sooner you will end up in a better place: either with a _FWW_ who is genuinely remorseful and ready and able to do what she needs to do to save her marriage, or with _another woman_, one who loves, respects and is faithful to you.

Don't waiver. Keep you eyes on the future and continue to do what you need to do to get there.


----------



## SF-FAN

That is what I am doing. As of right now, I have accepted the fact of D.


----------



## vi_bride04

SF-FAN said:


> You know what, that's why serial cheaters don't stop cheating. So what, their spouse divorces them with little to no consequences. They move on and continue cheating...NO, she needs to feel like she did something wrong and she's not going to get away with it just like that.


No, serial cheaters keep cheating, consequences or not, BECAUSE THERE IS SOMETHING FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG WITH HOW THEY VIEW THEMSELVES, LOVE AND INTIMACY.

No amount of consequences will change that. Only intensive IC. 

So let go of the revenge attitude. She will be her own undoing in life.


----------



## russell28

SF-FAN said:


> I guess I just don't want her to feel like she just got off easy. I know I'm not supposed to care but life is not fair. Who's to say she doesn't find a rich, handsome Dr. and lives happily ever after. She won't feel any type of punishment for messing up this marriage.


Why would a rich handsome Dr. want to marry a cheater.. and if he does, she'll cheat on him if she never learned anything.. so who cares. You should find a rich handsome Dr. first, that'll teach her... Seriously, don't try to punish her, try to help her understand what she's doing to herself and to her family.. She's the mother of your children, do it for them. You don't want to punish her, you want to enlighten her, that will be her punishment. Having to look at herself in the mirror. The way to do that is to get rid of her OM first...


----------



## russell28

SF-FAN said:


> That is what I am doing. As of right now, I have accepted the fact of D.


Remember that you're angry, and it's justified, but don't do anything foolish or anything you'll regret. Think of your children.. they need you, so you need to stay strong for them.


----------



## SF-FAN

So the attorney says that the more amicable the better because of course in California even though a spouse cheats, the one that gets screwed is the one that is the main bread winner. He also said that exposing her or making her mad right now may make her want to get back at me with child support, marital support, etc. so he told me to be real careful with that. 

I am very confused now.


----------



## Disenchanted

There's nothing confusing about it

If you are ready to divorce then pull the trigger.

Exposing, worrying about CV and all of that sh!t isn't going to help you in your divorce.

Read what Thorburn told you.
Every state in the union is the same, infidelity doesn't matter at all and the primary breadwinner almost always takes the greatest hit. There are no winners in divorce.

If you mention one more time how you want to make her life miserable or that you are worrying about anything other then yourself I'm out of here.

You can't "kind of" divorce. Did he tell you what you need to do to file? 

FILE


----------



## Shaggy

Attorneys like easy divorces. Quick, fast, they get paid.

What the attorney wants maybe different from what you want or is what is best for you.

In CA the financial is largely already decided by formula.

Want to reduce child support, get 50% custody, you get to have time with your kids and save on what you pay her.

Assists will be split 50-50 and alimony depends of relative incomes and time married.

Read the forums here. Pay attention to the guys that exposed the A, even if they went to D, and the guys who played the role of nice guy.

See which ones ended up happier and better off.


----------



## Disenchanted

I exposed in the hopes that her family would turn her around.

Didn't do a lick of good for me, they all took her side and helped her move out with my kids.

Kicking her ass in court, now that was awesome.


----------



## SF-FAN

I already told the MIL - what I am understanding from the attorney is that I should proceed as things are now. Right now, I am looking at no child support, no marital support and likely 50/50 with the kids (per her own words). My concern (and my attorney's concern) is that if I further expose or go after the OM, she may change her mind and ask for child support, marital support and even try to get more of the custody and like Disenchanted said exposing may not do a lick of good. That's where I am confused.


----------



## tom67

SF-FAN said:


> I already told the MIL - what I am understanding from the attorney is that I should proceed as things are now. Right now, I am looking at no child support, no marital support and likely 50/50 with the kids (per her own words). My concern (and my attorney's concern) is that if I further expose or go after the OM, she may change her mind and ask for child support, marital support and even try to get more of the custody and like Disenchanted said exposing may not do a lick of good. That's where I am confused.


Then get something done with her asap and forget about further exposure.


----------



## turnera

If you don't want her back, don't do anything but focus on getting the best divorce possible for you. Period. 

If you're waffling about wanting her back, fight the affair, get rid of OM, take your time, try to stoke the fires of your marriage again, and, if it still doesn't work out, you can file later.


----------



## turnera

If you do divorce, you can always get back together later.

OTOH, if you think you two have a chance and she's just in the alien cheater mentality, she can lose that mentality if OM is gone and you two address the marriage. 

Really depends on what you want. If you really want her, then by God fight for her and fight the affair with exposure. Save your integrity by doing what you want to do, money or not. 

If you're not sure, do nothing for now.


----------



## Disenchanted

You're gonna get a lot of advice here, take what you want and leave what you don't.

If you are a smart and cunning person, you should already know that it doesn't do you any good to escalate anything with your adversary. Your wife is now your legal adversary. 

A lawyer is only going to tell you what is in your best interest legally, not emotionally or anything else, just legally.

And the advice you got was solid. I'm $12k into my divorce currently, and it isn't even over. Luckily I got our of her legal bills, otherwise it'd be over $25k just in lawyer fees. So while I like Shaggy and most of the advice he gives out, the "good feelings" you might get from royally pissing her off could end up costing you a sh!t load of money.

The best possible thing you could do currently is divorce amicably as Thorburn said.

You should tell her you are ready to divorce and ask her if she is willing to do it non contested, this is by far your cheapest option. Then you guys need to get an attorney to sit with and hash out the details.

Don't believe a phucking thing she tells you though my man. My wife wanted to do it all friendly, got an attorney and absolutely went for the throat. It happens every time.

But you should file to get the ball rolling, you don't need to do much to file and that way she'll know you're serious and you may have the upper hand on her. 

This is a legal battle, the more emotion you bring into it the worse your position will be and the more it will cost you.


----------



## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> You're gonna get a lot of advice here, take what you want and leave what you don't.
> 
> If you are a smart and cunning person, you should already know that it doesn't do you any good to escalate anything with your adversary. Your wife is now your legal adversary.
> 
> A lawyer is only going to tell you what is in your best interest legally, not emotionally or anything else, just legally.
> 
> And the advice you got was solid. I'm $12k into my divorce currently, and it isn't even over. Luckily I got our of her legal bills, otherwise it'd be over $25k just in lawyer fees. So while I like Shaggy and most of the advice he gives out, the "good feelings" you might get from royally pissing her off could end up costing you a sh!t load of money.
> 
> The best possible thing you could do currently is divorce amicably as Thorburn said.
> 
> You should tell her you are ready to divorce and ask her if she is willing to do it non contested, this is by far your cheapest option. Then you guys need to get an attorney to sit with and hash out the details.
> 
> Don't believe a phucking thing she tells you though my man. My wife wanted to do it all friendly, got an attorney and absolutely went for the throat. It happens every time.
> 
> But you should file to get the ball rolling, you don't need to do much to file and that way she'll know you're serious and you may have the upper hand on her.
> 
> This is a legal battle, the more emotion you bring into it the worse your position will be and the more it will cost you.


:iagree:


----------



## nuclearnightmare

what if the OP gets her signature on a settlement first, and then expose or do whatever he thinks he should do to get back at her?
no that's not the "highest road' one can take, and there are ways one can go too far obviously (putting himself at risk and/or his kids). 

but a spouse is no different from any other person in your life; if they do something to humiliate you, or especially if they do so repeatedly - wanting retaliation is natural and - realizing that reasonable people disagree on the ethics involved - it is HEALTHY. 

So I think it's much better for him that he stews over what her payback should be, than to fret over how to save his marriage....i.e. to still try to feel love or respect for her. a few people in life, hopefully very few, will do everything they can to earn our DISrespect. when they do this we owe them exactly that.


----------



## SF-FAN

I feel I should continue the 180, act on the D and if she truly wants to save the marriage, she can prove it to me - if not, I'm already headed down the right road. Depending on what happens, then I can think about what type of retaliation so that it doesn't come back to bite me beforehand.


----------



## Shaggy

The lesson that i see from Dis's experience is that his nice wife went from wanting everything to be nice and fair, to her wanting everything.

Cheaters are by their nature selfish and entitled, they lie, they betray, and the do not give a care to the hurt the cause or the lives they ruin.

To think you are going to enter into a divorce process with a cheater and that they will treat you fairly isn't likely to turn out like you want.

You are essentially negotiating with a lair and a cheat. How can you possibly hope it will go easy?

Prediction - right now she's talking a good game, just wait until the attorney or her friends tell her how much she is entitled from you. She'll be lawyering up and coming after you.

As I suggested read others stories, read band it's tale and Carlson over in the private members area, read houstindad and a few others to help set you plans.


----------



## Lovemytruck

Shaggy speaks the truth. Cheaters are seldom fair.


----------



## SF-FAN

Shaggy said:


> The lesson that i see from Dis's experience is that his nice wife went from wanting everything to be nice and fair, to her wanting everything.
> 
> Cheaters are by their nature selfish and entitled, they lie, they betray, and the do not give a care to the hurt the cause or the lives they ruin.
> 
> To think you are going to enter into a divorce process with a cheater and that they will treat you fairly isn't likely to turn out like you want.
> 
> You are essentially negotiating with a lair and a cheat. How can you possibly hope it will go easy?
> 
> Prediction - right now she's talking a good game, just wait until the attorney or her friends tell her how much she is entitled from you. She'll be lawyering up and coming after you.
> 
> As I suggested read others stories, read band it's tale and Carlson over in the private members area, read houstindad and a few others to help set you plans.


I hold a card that she does not want dealt. I told her that if things got ugly in D, I would subpoena the actual text messages from our phone provider - not just from this A but from the one 4 years ago (assuming those are still available). She is super terrified of that...but of course they were only friendly messages...


----------



## Lovemytruck

SF-FAN said:


> I hold a card that she does not want dealt. I told her that if things got ugly in D, I would subpoena the actual text messages from our phone provider - not just from this A but from the one 4 years ago (assuming those are still available). She is super terrified of that...but of course they were only friendly messages...


You just never know with these types.

My exWW actually called several people in my family to tell them I was bad, and it made her cheat. She basically outed herself to my parents and siblings after I was too kind to let them know about her affair. Lol! She was "terrified" at having them find out in the previous 8 months post d-day.

Just sayin' ya never know.


----------



## SF-FAN

Lovemytruck said:


> You just never know with these types.
> 
> My exWW actually called several people in my family to tell them I was bad, and it made her cheat. She basically outed herself to my parents and siblings after I was too kind to let them know about her affair. Lol! She was "terrified" at having them find out in the previous 8 months post d-day.
> 
> Just sayin' ya never know.


I have a feeling she doesn't want these texts to see the light of day so I would say I have that as an advantage. I called our provider and they will release them if there is a subpoena.


----------



## 3putt

SF-FAN said:


> I hold a card that she does not want dealt. I told her that if things got ugly in D, I would subpoena the actual text messages from our phone provider - not just from this A but from the one 4 years ago *(assuming those are still available).* She is super terrified of that...but of course they were only friendly messages...


Hate to say it, but they aren't available. And if you don't get the new ones soon, they may to be available either. Text messages aren't forever retrievable. You need to check into this now.


----------



## SF-FAN

3putt said:


> Hate to say it, but they aren't available. And if you don't get the new ones soon, they may to be available either. Text messages aren't forever retrievable. You need to check into this now.


Not so worried about the ones from 4 years ago, I have the emails to prove that A. The recent ones are, I checked. Even printing out the call/text log is something she doesn't want me to do.


----------



## livinfree

3putt said:


> Hate to say it, but they aren't available. And if you don't get the new ones soon, they may to be available either. Text messages aren't forever retrievable. You need to check into this now.


Your right. I checked during my D it's myth unless u get someone from the NSA.


----------



## SF-FAN

livinfree said:


> Your right. I checked during my D it's myth unless u get someone from the NSA.


Maybe it depends on providers because I spoke with the legal dept. of my provider and they told me that the records would be released with a simple subpoena. Since I work for a law firm, I could easily draft one and fax it over. Not hard at all.


----------



## azteca1986

SF-FAN said:


> Maybe it depends on providers because I spoke with the legal dept. of my provider and they told me that the records would be released with a simple subpoena. Since I work for a law firm, I could easily draft one and fax it over. Not hard at all.


What's to sop you doing that now? Is the phone bill in your name?


----------



## SF-FAN

azteca1986 said:


> What's to sop you doing that now? Is the phone bill in your name?


You make a good point...why wait.


----------



## anchorwatch

You're live in the most liberal divorce state in the nation. None of those text will matter in court. She doesn't seem to be the type to worried enough abut exposure, since everyone knows already. 

It won't be long before she is advised by someone who knows the system. I say you still go for D full steam ahead, but don't be surprised when she pushes back and gets her share. She didn't change her ways in a few days...


----------



## azteca1986

If you can legally get your hands on them, there's no reason to wait. Knowledge is power.

But don't tip your wife off. Never mention the subpoena again unless things turn ugly.


----------



## SF-FAN

azteca1986 said:


> If you can legally get your hands on them, there's no reason to wait. Knowledge is power.
> 
> But don't tip your wife off. Never mention the subpoena again unless things turn ugly.


So that's what I will be working on the next day or so.


----------



## Chaparral

SF-FAN said:


> I have a feeling she doesn't want these texts to see the light of day so I would say I have that as an advantage. I called our provider and they will release them if there is a subpoena.


If you are divorcing for sure, why would she care about the texts. She doesn't want you to see the texts because she knows you will be gone.

Cant you subpoena the texts with out filing?


----------



## livinfree

SF-FAN said:


> Maybe it depends on providers because I spoke with the legal dept. of my provider and they told me that the records would be released with a simple subpoena. Since I work for a law firm, I could easily draft one and fax it over. Not hard at all.


The big three sprint , att n verizon roll over after three months, some can't get you content, only time stamps .. iMessage can't get it.. Then there's hundreds of non txt chat apps... Vibr , Whatsapp , etc.. Those go over data protocols, untraceable content-wise. Point is it's pointless, her lawyer and toxic friends will clue her into that.

It happened to me.


----------



## livinfree

Chaparral said:


> Cant you subpoena the texts with out filing?


In my case it was too trivial of offense to be worth a judges times.

Time is better spent carpeting consultations with lawyers.


----------



## 3putt

Chaparral said:


> If you are divorcing for sure, why would she care about the texts. She doesn't want you to see the texts because she knows you will be gone.
> 
> *Cant you subpoena the texts with out filing?*


Actually you can, you just have to submit the proper paperwork, and the important thing is to target the department that is responsible for that kind of information. You can't just sent it to Verizon, AT&T or whoever. He needs to do some homework so it gets in the right hands or it may just be dismissed.

And the subpoena can also be sent by registered mail and not a process server if what I've been checking on is correct.


----------



## vi_bride04

I think you need to get the texts just to get some of the truth...b/c you will never get it from her. Why do you think she is so scared of you getting them??

The biggest thing, IMO is that there was infidelity prior. She should know the pain caused.....she knows...its not like you guys have not gone through it before.

That is just the biggest disrespect to you, your family and your marriage. Screw her. Get the texts. And don't tell her.


----------



## tom67

vi_bride04 said:


> I think you need to get the texts just to get some of the truth...b/c you will never get it from her. Why do you think she is so scared of you getting them??
> 
> The biggest thing, IMO is that there was infidelity prior. She should know the pain caused.....she knows...its not like you guys have not gone through it before.
> 
> That is just the biggest disrespect to you, your family and your marriage. Screw her. Get the texts. And don't tell her.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Disenchanted

vi_bride04 said:


> And don't tell her.



:iagree:


----------



## Thorburn

SF_Fan - where were you when I needed you? I could have used your services to subpena my phone accounts. Just kidding.

1. Stop telling her anything about the D. 
2. Stop telling her what you can, will or might do. Let her in the dark. The less information she has the better.
3. Stop being confused. You are hurt and wheeling over the events and the propect of losing her. You already lost her. Let her go.
4. There is really nothing confusing about D if you educate yourself. I found out the worse scenerio, prepared for it and found out that D was bad but not as bad as I thought.
5. Having my wife's family on my side helped, but I stopped sharing with them what my plans were. I did not reveal my attorney, when I was going to file, etc. I found out who my wife's attorney was and even discovered conversation between them. Her attorney kept telling her to wait to see what I did. I shut off her cell phone (the account was in my name and legally I could do it). She got mad, her attorney told her to wait to see what else I do. he was telling her this instead of telling her "Hey, what your husband is doing is legal", because he did not want to lose her as a client. I did most things legally, the VAR was not legal but my attorney told me not to do it but he said on the other hand no judge is going to go after you.

Whether you can or can't get the messages is not the issue. She thinks you can. And as long as she thinks that you have another card up your sleeve.

Start acting happy. Fake it if you have to do so.


----------



## turnera

SF-FAN said:


> Not so worried about the ones from 4 years ago, I have the emails to prove that A. The recent ones are, I checked. Even printing out the call/text log is something she doesn't want me to do.


Then you should most definitely print them out.


----------



## SF-FAN

Thorburn said:


> SF_Fan - where were you when I needed you? I could have used your services to subpena my phone accounts. Just kidding.
> 
> 1. Stop telling her anything about the D.
> 2. Stop telling her what you can, will or might do. Let her in the dark. The less information she has the better.
> 3. Stop being confused. You are hurt and wheeling over the events and the propect of losing her. You already lost her. Let her go.
> 4. There is really nothing confusing about D if you educate yourself. I found out the worse scenerio, prepared for it and found out that D was bad but not as bad as I thought.
> 5. Having my wife's family on my side helped, but I stopped sharing with them what my plans were. I did not reveal my attorney, when I was going to file, etc. I found out who my wife's attorney was and even discovered conversation between them. Her attorney kept telling her to wait to see what I did. I shut off her cell phone (the account was in my name and legally I could do it). She got mad, her attorney told her to wait to see what else I do. he was telling her this instead of telling her "Hey, what your husband is doing is legal", because he did not want to lose her as a client. I did most things legally, the VAR was not legal but my attorney told me not to do it but he said on the other hand no judge is going to go after you.
> 
> *Whether you can or can't get the messages is not the issue. She thinks you can. And as long as she thinks that you have another card up your sleeve.*
> 
> Start acting happy. Fake it if you have to do so.


And that is what I am doing and definitely holding that card up my sleeve and she knows it. 



turnera said:


> Then you should most definitely print them out.


Done. I know that she'll either go underground or get some type of app to hide the texts but regardless if the texts are hidden on her phone, they show up on the call/text log.


----------



## SF-FAN

Oh and little update concerning the key logger. Nothing out of the ordinary. Nothing looking for a new place to live or looking for an attorney. All normal viewing. Facebook has nothing either. She hasn't messaged anyone. I just remembered I had the key logger installed but not really too concerned with it just adding an update.


----------



## turnera

Most people use their phones now if it's a smart phone.


----------



## SF-FAN

turnera said:


> Most people use their phones now if it's a smart phone.


True but she has no clue about the key logger so she would have no reason not to use the computer at home. She's the kind of person that doesn't like using her phone for that because the screen is so small but your point is valid.


----------



## Thorburn

SF-Fan. You are doing good. Stay the course.


----------



## SF-FAN

Thorburn said:


> SF-Fan. You are doing good. Stay the course.


Thanks...it's a rollercoaster. I feel good some moments and feel crushed the next but am surprising myself at how I am acting so disinterested. Last A I decided to forgive and we moved on pretty quickly...this time I put my foot down will not back down.


----------



## Thorburn

SF-FAN said:


> Thanks...it's a rollercoaster. I feel good some moments and feel crushed the next but am surprising myself at how I am acting so disinterested. Last A I decided to forgive and we moved on pretty quickly...this time I put my foot down will not back down.


I did something similar. Went into a false R for over a year while my wife never ended the A. It suc*s.

You really can't do much with the rollercoaster ride. It will be great one moment and then wham. Right now you are in the beginning of it.

Seems like you rug swept the last A. Not good to do that.


----------



## SF-FAN

Thorburn said:


> I did something similar. Went into a false R for over a year while my wife never ended the A. It suc*s.
> 
> You really can't do much with the rollercoaster ride. It will be great one moment and then wham. Right now you are in the beginning of it.
> 
> Seems like you rug swept the last A. Not good to do that.


It was not good to rug sweep the last A but since it was the first, like a fool I believed she'd never do it again. She was super remorseful and we had just bought our house - I was naive. I too wanted to get back to our normal peaceful lives as quickly as possible.

I know better this time. When someone doesn't love you, you can't make them love you. She's also done me the favor of being cold over the last weeks/months so it's helped me detach. Right now I see her for the lying, manipulative monster she is, not her exterior. Funny thing, she doesn't even appear all that pretty to me anymore.


----------



## Squeakr

As they say, beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes straight to the bone!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SF-FAN

Squeakr said:


> As they say, beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes straight to the bone!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Very true but what also egged her on (and made me feel like I had a prize) was the fact that guys and girls would compliment her everywhere we'd go. Guys would tell me I was so lucky to have her and girls would tell her how beautiful she was. That played games in my head - that is something I had to get over and realize that they don't know her like I do. Guys are dogs anyway and only care about getting in the pants but definitely would not want more knowing her the way I do.


----------



## weightlifter

SF sounds like you are accepting the distinct possibility of D.

Believe it or not and we have taken DOZENS of men thru this. You are statistically VERY likely to love and even possibly marry again. I know you are saying "No effing way" but its true.


----------



## SF-FAN

weightlifter said:


> SF sounds like you are accepting the distinct possibility of D.
> 
> Believe it or not and we have taken DOZENS of men thru this. You are statistically VERY likely to love and even possibly marry again. I know you are saying "No effing way" but its true.


No, I believe I can love again but re-marrying is not even a thought right now. My concern is finding someone that will never do this to me again....kinda scary that it's so hard to tell. I mean 4 years into my marriage and then boom. Others on this site even longer.

I also find myself wanting to ask girls for their #s or emails (which I know is not right) to try to soften the hurt I am having. Not to pursue anything but to feel wanted again.


----------



## Disenchanted

SF-FAN said:


> I also find myself wanting to ask girls for their #s or emails (which I know is not right) to try to soften the hurt I am having. Not to pursue anything but to feel wanted again.


I can tell you the longing for a woman gets pretty intense. But then, at least for me, I'm not able to provide much emotional support or be that "tough" with trust issues etc.

However, with that said getting into bed with a beautiful woman who wanted to be there was the most therapeutic thing I've done for sure. 

Not that I would ever recommend infidelity (separate first) it really helped me get over X 100%.


----------



## Shaggy

Reminds me of the old joke

I only date ugly girls because if I get cheated on I won't mind loosing them as much.


----------



## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> *I can tell you the longing for a woman gets pretty intense.* But then, at least for me, I'm not able to provide much emotional support or be that "tough" with trust issues etc.
> 
> However, with that said getting into bed with a beautiful woman who wanted to be there was the most therapeutic thing I've done for sure.
> 
> Not that I would ever recommend infidelity (separate first) it really helped me get over X 100%.


Almost to the point of feeling desperate I think. Not a good feeling. As much as I hate my WW for what's she's done I would never do anything while with her. I'm not like that and never will be. Like I told my WW before, I like living my life guilt free knowing I have nothing to hide.


----------



## Disenchanted

Just keep in mind that it's not fair to medicate or emotionally depend on a woman. That's what I'm still battling.


----------



## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> Just keep in mind that it's not fair to medicate or emotionally depend on a woman. That's what I'm still battling.


I'm guilty of that myself. I think I depend too much on a woman for happiness. Before I got married though, I was fine. I was o.k. being single, had my friends, activities, etc. to the point I was hesitant about getting in a relationship with the WW but ended up putting that all to the side which was my fault.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

SF-FAN said:


> Very true but what also egged her on (and made me feel like I had a prize) was the fact that guys and girls would compliment her everywhere we'd go. Guys would tell me I was so lucky to have her and girls would tell her how beautiful she was. That played games in my head - that is something I had to get over and realize that they don't know her like I do. Guys are dogs anyway and only care about getting in the pants but definitely would not want more knowing her the way I do.


OP:

If she's the kind of person I think she is (based on your descriptions) she:

1. DOES CARE very much about her reputation. she cares about what people think of her, all sorts of people..work, extended family, church, girlfriends etc. so am not surprised that you think getting hold of her texts could be useful for you. 

2. May impress a lot of people, and impress them a lot. not just based on looks but based on (outward) personality. Think of all the relationships in life that don't require intimacy. almost every one of them do not, except the one with a spouse. A person like her can do just fine when she doesn't have to reveal too much of herself - more than fine in fact. 

3. is a world-class master of manipulating people. that's a big risk for you now, since you guys are still living together. If she softens and wants to "talk", I think you should cut short anything that has a conciliatory tone - stop conversation, get away from her, take a drive, go for a run etc.


----------



## SF-FAN

nuclearnightmare said:


> OP:
> 
> If she's the kind of person I think she is (based on your descriptions) she:
> 
> 1. DOES CARE very much about her reputation. she cares about what people think of her, all sorts of people..work, extended family, church, girlfriends etc. so am not surprised that you think getting hold of her texts could be useful for you.
> 
> 2. May impress a lot of people, and impress them a lot. not just based on looks but based on (outward) personality. Think of all the relationships in life that don't require intimacy. almost every one of them do not, except the one with a spouse. A person like her can do just fine when she doesn't have to reveal too much of herself - more than fine in fact.
> 
> 3. is a world-class master of manipulating people. that's a big risk for you now, since you guys are still living together. If she softens and wants to "talk", I think you should cut short anything that has a conciliatory tone - stop conversation, get away from her, take a drive, go for a run etc.


So far we have not spoken but a few words and mostly about the kids and bills. I am not giving her much attention at all. I think it's surprised her because she knows I hate arguing and can't stand to just live as roommates but that's what I'm giving her.


----------



## turnera

SF-FAN said:


> Almost to the point of feeling desperate I think. Not a good feeling.


That's why this is the perfect time for you to find a therapist and start going.


----------



## turnera

SF-FAN said:


> I'm guilty of that myself. I think I depend too much on a woman for happiness. Before I got married though, I was fine. I was o.k. being single, had my friends, activities, etc. to the point I was hesitant about getting in a relationship with the WW but ended up putting that all to the side which was my fault.


Before you get close to another woman, read Hold On To Your N.U.T.S. It discusses this very well.


----------



## SF-FAN

turnera said:


> Before you get close to another woman, read Hold On To Your N.U.T.S. It discusses this very well.


Will do. Is that a book or an article somewhere in this forum?


----------



## SF-FAN

Feeling kind of low right now...it's one of those times on this emotional rollercoaster I hate. No specific reason just a feeling of loneliness and despair.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

SF-FAN said:


> Feeling kind of low right now...it's one of those times on this emotional rollercoaster I hate. No specific reason just a feeling of loneliness and despair.


this might be a good time to start some new hobby or pastime. most important - something that has a social component. where you can meet new people, make new firends. volunteer work, political activism, tennis ladder, acquiring exotic snakes(??)............anything will due as long as it has you getting out to meet new people.
(BTW online stuff does NOT count as anything 'social' - i.e. no names, no faces, no voices......... no way)


----------



## turnera

SF-FAN said:


> Will do. Is that a book or an article somewhere in this forum?


 It's a book from an awesome website: BetterMen Coaching: Hold on to your N.U.T.S.


----------



## turnera

SF-FAN said:


> Feeling kind of low right now...it's one of those times on this emotional rollercoaster I hate. No specific reason just a feeling of loneliness and despair.


 You weren't born with her attached to you, you were never going to die with her attached to you. SHE ISN'T YOU. Don't make the mistake of thinking you need her.


----------



## carmen ohio

SF-FAN said:


> I'm guilty of that myself. I think I depend too much on a woman for happiness. *Before I got married though, I was fine. I was o.k. being single, had my friends, activities, etc. to the point I was hesitant about getting in a relationship with the WW* but ended up putting that all to the side which was my fault.


Dear SF-FAN,

The irony is that this is the attitude that attracts woman and, if you can maintain it after getting married, increases the odds of them sticking around.

I suggest you read The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 | MMSL Primer | By Athol Kay | Married Man Sex Life to learn more about this.

You're getting great advice (for free!) and you are assimilating it better than most guys who come to TAM/CWI for help. Keep it up.


----------



## Vulcan2013

carmen ohio said:


> Dear SF-FAN,
> 
> The irony is that this is the attitude that attracts woman and, if you can maintain it after getting married, increases the odds of them sticking around.
> 
> I suggest you read The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 | MMSL Primer | By Athol Kay | Married Man Sex Life to learn more about this.
> 
> You're getting great advice (for free!) and you are assimilating it better than most guys who come to TAM/CWI for help. Keep it up.


:iagree:


----------



## "joe"

SF-FAN said:


> Feeling kind of low right now...it's one of those times on this emotional rollercoaster I hate. No specific reason just a feeling of loneliness and despair.


sorry to hear this SF. this is the place to be though, we're here because we all are feeling or have felt this way. keep posting, keep in touch with your friends.


----------



## SF-FAN

carmen ohio said:


> Dear SF-FAN,
> 
> The irony is that this is the attitude that attracts woman and, if you can maintain it after getting married, increases the odds of them sticking around.
> 
> I suggest you read The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 | MMSL Primer | By Athol Kay | Married Man Sex Life to learn more about this.
> 
> You're getting great advice (for free!) and you are assimilating it better than most guys who come to TAM/CWI for help. Keep it up.


That is very true and sometimes a man gets too co-dependent without even noticing it. I am starting to detach myself little by little and it feels good. I keep telling myself that I lived fine for 25 years before I met her. It's been a long time since we've been affectionate and at first I missed it a lot and though I still miss it, I'm o.k. with it.


----------



## mahike

SF-FAN said:


> Feeling kind of low right now...it's one of those times on this emotional rollercoaster I hate. No specific reason just a feeling of loneliness and despair.


Boy do I understand what you are going through. I have kept a journal of my feelings. Just a quick note about my thoughts and feelings. It has really helped me to sort things out.

What is going on with her?


----------



## LostViking

Just keep pushing forward SF. Each day will get better. Work that 180. 

How is she acting around you otherwise. Any remorse at all?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SF-FAN

mahike said:


> Boy do I understand what you are going through. I have kept a journal of my feelings. Just a quick note about my thoughts and feelings. It has really helped me to sort things out.
> 
> What is going on with her?


Though sh'es trying to act cold, she still tries to initiate conversation like everything is o.k. That's how her family is though. They'll argue and then attempt to talk to each other without apologizing.



LostViking said:


> Just keep pushing forward SF. Each day will get better. Work that 180.
> 
> How is she acting around you otherwise. Any remorse at all?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She has shown remorse though I am staying the course. Like I said, she has to really show me she is going to change and for the rest of the marriage, not just for a short time. She is going to a counselor so we'll see.


----------



## terrence4159

my ex wife showed remorse to me up until the D papers were signed...well what i thought was remorse. i talked to some of her family they laughed and said dont buy that crap shes not sorry. she was remarried before the ink dried on the d papers.

great news for me 9 years later i have "our" son 5 nights a week she only gets him on weekends, never had to pay a dime in child support (exposer to her family made them not pay for her lawyer she couldnt fight me) she has 2 other kids now neither her or her husband work they are leaches of society and he weighs like 300 lbs now. 

she never told me she was sorry but she did tell my new wife that she screwed up bad. best thing i have not talked to her in 3 years my wife deals with her


----------



## LongWalk

Wow, Terrance. Sounds like carved out out a life of pure misery.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## bandit.45

Terrence's story makes me feel all warm and cozy inside.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Vulcan2013

terrence4159 said:


> my ex wife showed remorse to me up until the D papers were signed...well what i thought was remorse. i talked to some of her family they laughed and said dont buy that crap shes not sorry. she was remarried before the ink dried on the d papers.
> 
> great news for me 9 years later i have "our" son 5 nights a week she only gets him on weekends, never had to pay a dime in child support (exposer to her family made them not pay for her lawyer she couldnt fight me) she has 2 other kids now neither her or her husband work they are leaches of society and he weighs like 300 lbs now.
> 
> she never told me she was sorry but she did tell my new wife that she screwed up bad. best thing i have not talked to her in 3 years my wife deals with her


Wow. She didn't get hit by the karma bus, she married it. :rofl:


----------



## terrence4159

yep and it may be wrong but i love it, i make sure to take my son on tons of vacations to rub it in (dallas in november for the thanksgiving game, hawaii in march, greece in 2 years) im a **** that way. 

enough of the thread jack


----------



## SF-FAN

She thinks she did no wrong but I know karma is going to hit her pretty hard.


----------



## SF-FAN

Really having a hard time today. Either she is better than me at keeping strong or she truly doesn't give a rats azz about me and our marriage she is throwing away. What can you do when feeling this low like if no one in the world cares whether you live or die?


----------



## Ovid

SF-FAN said:


> Really having a hard time today. Either she is better than me at keeping strong or she truly doesn't give a rats azz about me and our marriage she is throwing away. What can you do when feeling this low like if no one in the world cares whether you live or die?


You have to force yourself to do something constructive. Giving yourself something to do will help you work past it, especially if it's something that works toward a better tomorrow.


----------



## SF-FAN

Ovid said:


> You have to force yourself to do something constructive. Giving yourself something to do will help you work past it, especially if it's something that works toward a better tomorrow.


It's hardest when I'm at work because it's only 4 of us in the office so I don't have a ton of people to socialize with. I work independently a lot so I have my thoughts all to myself which is not a good thing.


----------



## "joe"

SF-FAN said:


> Really having a hard time today. Either she is better than me at keeping strong or she truly doesn't give a rats azz about me and our marriage she is throwing away. What can you do when feeling this low like if no one in the world cares whether you live or die?


reach out to anyone you feel you can reach out to. i was in a pretty isolated place after d-day and i forced myself to do this and it actually worked, or worked enough to help anyway.
also, read here, post here - we all know the score.


----------



## Thorburn

This the lonely stage. I had some in my wife's family and I had friends who helped me. Find positive stuff to do.


----------



## SF-FAN

I'm on here pretty much all day and it definitely helps but as far as socializing it's hard. At times I feel o.k. and then at times I wonder how I am going to get through it. Working itself is a chore. I feel like I can't concentrate and it's really affecting my work.


----------



## turnera

Then you should get on some antidepressants for a few months.


----------



## Lovemytruck

SF-FAN said:


> Really having a hard time today. Either she is better than me at keeping strong or she truly doesn't give a rats azz about me and our marriage she is throwing away. What can you do when feeling this low like if no one in the world cares whether you live or die?


Sounds like you are kind of stuck emotionally and socially.

You are not ready to jump into a new relationship, but I would start toying with the idea of finding a new fling. Nothing serious, but a little flirting or daydreaming about new possiblities would probably lift your shattered ego.

I know; many people might disagree with this. I was very shattered, and I think letting myself "look" at other women was a positive step for me. Not sure how it would go for you, but I feel it was better than medicating with alcohol or prescription meds. Improving your self in is greatly enhanced when you feel worthy of something better. Being validated by the opposite sex goes a long way in helping you to realize this.

Just saying that besides venting and thinking about how things have hurt, I would find a few things that excite. Things that make you want to move forward.

One of the best things for me was looking on the freebie pages of the dating sites to check out what my new dating pool looked like. Make yourself feel more confident by knowing you have MANY other options beyond your WW.

Take this advice for what it is worth. I have no clue as to your emotional state. I would also think that you need a rest between this past cheating POS and the new Mrs. Right. 

Sorry you are here.


----------



## Lovemytruck




----------



## mahike

Yep I was at the same place about work and It did effect me badly. I did talk with my boss about what was going on but not in detail.

It took me some time but I really threw myself into my work and it was a good way to get through the day.


----------



## Thorburn

It affects everything. I should have been promoted two years ago but because of my wife's cheating I could not concentrate on getting a professional liscense. Now I am way behind on that. Should have done it and am in the proces now, my boss wanted to retire last year and he wants me to replace him, which would be another promotion. This crap messes up your head big time.


----------



## Remains

Thorburn, that is sh*t. But I totally get it. Life in this crap is like limbo for everything else. All else goes on the back burner. A total head fu*k.

SF, limbo is sh*t. I have allowed it to go on far too long. I feel a great sense of hope, then it is shattered. I am feeling now though that life is much better moving on...Duh! It ain't rocket science....and I am, I think, with or without him. But I have wasted much much time getting here. And I tried far too hard for far too long to get here....so stupid. I am now quite happy when we break up, it gives me some peace in life. But I love being with him, love his company, and so I have let it go on for far too long. So, moral to the story, move on. With or without her. And end the agony. Try and concentrate on your life and making it better. If she continues how she is, move on without her. Above all, MAKE it happen.

And yes, I agree with love my truck, when I am determined to break up for good, going on a dating website to take my mind off him and have something to look forward to is not a bad thing. Never quite managed to see it through though. The date has never materialised through my own holding back, or more accurately, us getting back together again. But it is a pleasant distraction while it lasts. I plan to see it through imminently though, because I am going nowhere with my current man. I want to move on.


----------



## SF-FAN

Thanks all, I am trying.


----------



## illwill

Get a new hobby and meet some new people with common interest. There must be something you always wanted to learn.


----------



## SF-FAN

I talked to a couple girls at school yesterday but not in a flirty, let's hook up, kind of way, just to interact and though the conversations weren't long, it felt nice. I would never hook up with another girl while still married - it's just not me. I'd feel tremendous guilt and would feel bad for the person I am deceiving. I don't know how my wife doesn't feel the same way.


----------



## weightlifter

Get D filed.

Once filed, separate and, honestly fvck every poon willing... to a point of course.

I love those. "I just got some! Damn I feel like a new man!" posts. That is your ego going from 0% to 60% in well hopefully longer than sixty seconds. The top link in my signature is one of them.

for regular socail. meetup.com


----------



## Lovemytruck

SF-FAN said:


> I talked to a couple girls at school yesterday but not in a flirty, let's hook up, kind of way, just to interact and though the conversations weren't long, it felt nice. I would never hook up with another girl while still married - it's just not me. I'd feel tremendous guilt and would feel bad for the person I am deceiving. I don't know how my wife doesn't feel the same way.


That is exactly what I was talking to you about. It is NOT for sex or a RA, it is for you to find comfort in knowing that there are other replacements for your WW.

I would say your confidence needs to be repaired. It will take time, but you will begin to realize that you are better off without your WW.

Hopefully you can see a silver lining in this mess. You might just find someone, in due time, that is a better fit for you.


----------



## Lovemytruck

And yes, when your are ready, the sex will be good too! Lol!


----------



## SF-FAN

Funny thing is sex isn't even on my mind right now and hasn't been for a while. Going through a mess like this completely drains you emotionally. Just conversing with other women was nice. Who knows what they thought of me but at least they held a conversation with me so I didn't feel rejected.


----------



## Lovemytruck

SF-FAN said:


> Funny thing is sex isn't even on my mind right now and hasn't been for a while. Going through a mess like this completely drains you emotionally. Just conversing with other women was nice. Who knows what they thought of me but at least they held a conversation with me so I didn't feel rejected.


I experienced similar feelings about sex. It is more about your feelings of self-worth that will make you recover. Being valued and admired by potential partners probably was a bigger deal to me than sex. Sex is just a form of that anyway.

Sex will become enjoyable when your have emotionally moved on and into a new relationship.

First things first. Use the "new" you to move through the limbo, file for D, and then the relationship. My suggestion was to LOOK and FIND that you are attractive and have value. The excitement will be knowing that you can succeed, and improve your position. It will go a long way in helping you get out of your emotional hole.


----------



## SF-FAN

What is helping me is that I was in a similar situation with my previous relationship. Though we never married (thank God), we were together for over 6 yrs. She cheated on me throughout, though I didn't find out until almost the end. She ended up pregnant from another guy so leaving was a no brainer. It did hurt though, 6 years is a long time. At the time I thought she was good looking but now I look back and think OMG what was I thinking.

Not sure what she's up to now but last I heard she got arrested for shoplifting once, hasn't held down a steady job and is not really doing anything. I made it then and I'll make it now. This time it's a little different because there are kids involved and my WW is doing something with her life but her morals are not there.


----------



## Lovemytruck

It sounds like your might be a little blind to the faults of your partners. I worry about that myself.

The kids do make it tough, but I think a D would be less hurtful to them than an open marriage/toxic marriage/bad marriage.

What have you done, or what are you planning to do to adjust your behavior for the next Mrs. Right?

I know it is too early for you, but really this is the heart of your problem. You are likely to suffer from a condition that many of us have had, you are too nice. Correct?

Maybe that is why I reflect and read TAM 3 years since my d-day. I am learning to be a better man. Hope you and I will both do better moving forward.


----------



## awake1

SF-FAN said:


> Funny thing is sex isn't even on my mind right now and hasn't been for a while. Going through a mess like this completely drains you emotionally. Just conversing with other women was nice. Who knows what they thought of me but at least they held a conversation with me so I didn't feel rejected.


i posted awhile ago in your thread and tried to catch up. 

Do you work out? Specifically, lift weights? 

Have you read NMMNG and MMSLP? 

Have you been going out? Bars, clubs whatever? I went from knowing almost no one, to knowing piles of people in a few weeks. 

You meet one person, that person introduces you to someone else, and so one. Soon you'll be adding people on facebook. 

Do you have any close guy friends, or are you able to reconnect with old friends? 

Have you stopped all non essential communication with WW?

Going out and meeting people is crucial. It expands your social circle and so opens new opportunity for new relationships. Not all people are good, or bad. Most are a mix. 

You have to begin to repair all the damage that's been done to your confidence and emotional state. The above is a good start. Just try to make this transition as easy on yourself as possible. 

Doing this like what I posted lays the foundation for a future without WW.


----------



## weightlifter

OP. Awake is THE man to listen to this.

Hes a few months ahead of you.


----------



## SF-FAN

Lovemytruck said:


> It sounds like your might be a little blind to the faults of your partners. I worry about that myself.
> 
> The kids do make it tough, but I think a D would be less hurtful to them than an open marriage/toxic marriage/bad marriage.
> 
> What have you done, or what are you planning to do to adjust your behavior for the next Mrs. Right?
> 
> I know it is too early for you, but really this is the heart of your problem. You are likely to suffer from a condition that many of us have had, you are too nice. Correct?
> 
> Maybe that is why I reflect and read TAM 3 years since my d-day. I am learning to be a better man. Hope you and I will both do better moving forward.


Right now just moving forward on my own and IF she gets out of the fog then maybe we can R...but moving forward like it's not going to happen.



awake1 said:


> i posted awhile ago in your thread and tried to catch up.
> 
> Do you work out? Specifically, lift weights?
> 
> Have you read NMMNG and MMSLP?
> 
> Have you been going out? Bars, clubs whatever? I went from knowing almost no one, to knowing piles of people in a few weeks.
> 
> You meet one person, that person introduces you to someone else, and so one. Soon you'll be adding people on facebook.
> 
> Do you have any close guy friends, or are you able to reconnect with old friends?
> 
> Have you stopped all non essential communication with WW?
> 
> Going out and meeting people is crucial. It expands your social circle and so opens new opportunity for new relationships. Not all people are good, or bad. Most are a mix.
> 
> You have to begin to repair all the damage that's been done to your confidence and emotional state. The above is a good start. Just try to make this transition as easy on yourself as possible.
> 
> Doing this like what I posted lays the foundation for a future without WW.


I do work out and and have been for years now so I'm fairly in good shape. I also coach my kids' baseball teams and love playing with my kids so I stay in shape that way.

Through school I am getting to meet new people but it's sort of bitter sweet because though they are nice to talk to, they are way younger than me therefore have different interests. I did not go to school right after HS so am now the "older" person in class though I don't look it but still it's a fact. 



weightlifter said:


> OP. Awake is THE man to listen to this.
> 
> Hes a few months ahead of you.


:smthumbup:


----------



## weightlifter

Dude I know its anonymous but the TAM Army is behind you so you are not alone.

I made friends with RDMU IRL.

I know others have done the same with other posters.

Go figure.


----------



## awake1

SF-FAN said:


> I do work out and and have been for years now so I'm fairly in good shape. I also coach my kids' baseball teams and love playing with my kids so I stay in shape that way.


Very good. Do you do any weight lifting? I'm not sure where you are physically, but what I'm mainly talking about is improving your physical look. 

If you can't do that through exercise, maybe new clothes/haircut heck even a tattoo (if it fits you), New glasses, shoes whatever. 


SF-FAN said:


> Through school I am getting to meet new people but it's sort of bitter sweet because though they are nice to talk to, they are way younger than me therefore have different interests. I did not go to school right after HS so am now the "older" person in class though I don't look it but still it's a fact.


The reason I say bars/clubs, and recommend them is because socially it's okay to drink there. 

Nice guys/doormats often have trouble opening up. The liquor can help you get more talkative. I'm not saying wake up in an alley cleaning puke off your chest. But having a few beers to loosen the tongue and provide some liquid courage is a good thing. 

I'd only say be careful that things don't become a crutch. For example, that you only talk to people when a certain guy friend is around. 

You have to build the confidence to push through awkward social situations. 

Striking up a conversation with a stranger is a learned skill. Recently i've been called a people person, charismatic, a talker, funny. This isn't something I was born with. I sat in the house and played video games until I was 20. I had just a couple friends over my entire life.

For example, you say some of these girls are younger, but i'm sure there's a million and one different things to talk about. 

What they're wearing that day. How the class itself is going. The subject matter of the course. How the teacher does this goofy thing (they all do something strange), you can talk about movies coming out.

I've never run into anyone where I didn't have _something_ to talk about. Even if it was about their job. 

But some people will snub you, ignore you, or remain awkward. That's fine. You just ignore that. Whether you're trying to meet women or you're bored waiting in line it doesn't matter. Keep doing it and eventually you'll get it down.

My advice here is just talk like you've known them forever. It's easy to be comfortable when you're around someone who is comfortable. If someone acts awkward, it'll often be hard to gauge their mood and be hard to engage them in conversation. Smile, be light, personable and comfortable. 

Even if it's facebooks new layout, you have _something_ in common with someone else. You build on that and take it deeper, like layers of an onion. "Oh you hate the new layout too? It's hard to find all my swimming pictures" _I love swimming_"Yea swimming is my thing. I went recently with my nephew" _that's nice, how old is he?_"He's 5" That's really generic, but I'm trying to convey how it goes from broad to more specific, and so you learn how you have all these things in common.


----------



## awake1

weightlifter said:


> OP. Awake is THE man to listen to this.
> 
> Hes a few months ahead of you.


That's very high praise. I'd say something like I don't deserve it, but then someone else would scream "NICE GUY!" It's like the new cooties.


----------



## weightlifter

Awake am I supposed to go "aw shucks now"? I recall early in your thread. Its a process we all see if we are here long enough.

Tell ya what.

Lets both do a Tim the Toolman Taylor monkey grunt then break something.

Lets start with RDMU's "Bob"'s legs


----------



## weightlifter

Wait. You have cooties?
Go take a shower or something.

Dont CNA's give cootie shots?


----------



## SF-FAN

awake1 said:


> Very good. Do you do any weight lifting? I'm not sure where you are physically, but what I'm mainly talking about is improving your physical look.
> 
> If you can't do that through exercise, maybe new clothes/haircut heck even a tattoo (if it fits you), New glasses, shoes whatever.
> 
> 
> The reason I say bars/clubs, and recommend them is because socially it's okay to drink there.
> 
> Nice guys/doormats often have trouble opening up. The liquor can help you get more talkative. I'm not saying wake up in an alley cleaning puke off your chest. But having a few beers to loosen the tongue and provide some liquid courage is a good thing.
> 
> I'd only say be careful that things don't become a crutch. For example, that you only talk to people when a certain guy friend is around.
> 
> You have to build the confidence to push through awkward social situations.
> 
> Striking up a conversation with a stranger is a learned skill. Recently i've been called a people person, charismatic, a talker, funny. This isn't something I was born with. I sat in the house and played video games until I was 20. I had just a couple friends over my entire life.
> 
> For example, you say some of these girls are younger, but i'm sure there's a million and one different things to talk about.
> 
> What they're wearing that day. How the class itself is going. The subject matter of the course. How the teacher does this goofy thing (they all do something strange), you can talk about movies coming out.
> 
> I've never run into anyone where I didn't have _something_ to talk about. Even if it was about their job.
> 
> But some people will snub you, ignore you, or remain awkward. That's fine. You just ignore that. Whether you're trying to meet women or you're bored waiting in line it doesn't matter. Keep doing it and eventually you'll get it down.
> 
> My advice here is just talk like you've known them forever, be friendly, personable and light.


I do lift weights but used to go to the gym like 6 days a week so used to be more defined, now I only go like 3-4 days a week because of work, school and the kids' sports. I get what you mean though, changing your look in some way does boost confidence and makes you feel like a new person.

As far as talking goes, I am not what you would call a social butterfly but don't have trouble talking to anyone. Just the other day I approached 2 girls on 2 different occasions and struck up a conversation. It was nice but like you said, I need to just talk about anything because I do find that I run out of things to talk about.

I can also equate that to my WW because she is very judgmental. If I act goofy or funny or just talk about something she didn't think was right, she'd criticize me so I have to work through that.


----------



## awake1

weightlifter said:


> Wait. You have cooties?
> Go take a shower or something.
> 
> Dont CNA's give cootie shots?


I have an incurable case of cooties. Apparently my cooties is so advanced the doctor caught it and was forced to retire.

It made the Journal of Cooties Research


----------



## weightlifter

/e starts scratching

DAMMIT.

AWAKE GAVE ME COOTIES THROUGH THE INTERNET!


----------



## weightlifter

uh sorry SF

We now return you to your regular programming of evil wife having sex with other men.


----------



## awake1

SF-FAN said:


> I do lift weights but used to go to the gym like 6 days a week so used to be more defined, now I only go like 3-4 days a week because of work, school and the kids' sports. I get what you mean though, changing your look in some way does boost confidence and makes you feel like a new person.
> 
> As far as talking goes, I am not what you would call a social butterfly but don't have trouble talking to anyone. Just the other day I approached 2 girls on 2 different occasions and struck up a conversation. It was nice but like you said, I need to just talk about anything because I do find that I run out of things to talk about.
> 
> I can also equate that to my WW because she is very judgmental. If I act goofy or funny or just talk about something she didn't think was right, she'd criticize me so I have to work through that.


Sorry I added more to my post through the edit. 

That's what I said about building the confidence to push through awkward social situations. 

For conversations , i've learned never make it seem like an interview. If you're asking too many questions it seems stressed. Make comments that segway into other topics. 

"I love al pacino in scarface. Too bad the fashion is so old." "Yea I work at sunoco, we get a lot of drunks on the night shift." These are pretty basic/generic too, but I'm not sure if you can notice this gives the other person a chance to talk about something else. 

The more you talk though, the more you get used to talking. 

I think a lot of guys like us have this problem. Conversations often feel forced, awkward, and difficult. To many introverts conversations can be exhausting. But it's like a muscle, it needs worked to get stronger.


----------



## SF-FAN

awake1 said:


> Sorry I added more to my post through the edit.
> 
> That's what I said about building the confidence to push through awkward social situations.
> 
> For conversations , i've learned never make it seem like an interview. If you're asking too many questions it seems stressed. Make comments that segway into other topics.
> 
> "I love al pacino in scarface. Too bad the fashion is so old." "Yea I work at sunoco, we get a lot of drunks on the night shift." These are pretty basic/generic too, but I'm not sure if you can notice this gives the other person a chance to talk about something else.
> 
> The more you talk though, the more you get used to talking.
> 
> I think a lot of guys like us have this problem. Conversations often feel forced, awkward, and difficult. To many introverts conversations can be exhausting. But it's like a muscle, it needs worked to get stronger.


That was/is the WW complaint. BUT she only get's into the conversation when it's drama - otherwise she finds the conversation boring. Hard to really have a conversation with a person like that. Need to build up my conversing skills with others.


----------



## awake1

SF-FAN said:


> That was/is the WW complaint. BUT she only get's into the conversation when it's drama - otherwise she finds the conversation boring. Hard to really have a conversation with a person like that. Need to build up my conversing skills with others.


Yea you can't make her talk to you. 

From what I learned though is chances are you're not boring, she is. 

Conversing is a natural thing people do. And if you have to force that with someone then it's probably not your fault. 

If someone likes you, they'll talk to you. Guy or girl. You just have to be sure you're providing topics that you can keep going. You can only talk about your plastered bug collection signed by tim burton for so long.


----------



## Lovemytruck

SF-FAN said:


> I can also equate that to my WW because she is very judgmental. If I act goofy or funny or just talk about something she didn't think was right, she'd criticize me so I have to work through that.


Good job on clearing out the cooties. 

Good work on working out.

Just catching back up.

Awake1 made some good points about conversation. I think he is on the mark when he said that she probably is the boring one.

The quoted part above made me wonder what is going on in your WW's head. The criticism must come from her lack of respect for you, or from self-confidence.

Was she embarassed when you were talking to other people/groups, or was she critical when you were one-on-one with her?

I am wondering if she was trying to sh!t test you, if you were a little clumsy, or if she was just projecting her fears on you.

Knowing the cause might help you adjust your style, or at least you will know that it is her problem, not yours!


----------



## SF-FAN

Lovemytruck said:


> Good job on clearing out the cooties.
> 
> Good work on working out.
> 
> Just catching back up.
> 
> Awake1 made some good points about conversation. I think he is on the mark when he said that she probably is the boring one.
> 
> The quoted part above made me wonder what is going on in your WW's head. The criticism must come from her lack of respect for you, or from self-confidence.
> 
> Was she embarassed when you were talking to other people/groups, or was she critical when you were one-on-one with her?
> 
> I am wondering if she was trying to sh!t test you, if you were a little clumsy, or if she was just projecting her fears on you.
> 
> Knowing the cause might help you adjust your style, or at least you will know that it is her problem, not yours!


The WW put me down all sorts of times, during one-on-one conversations, in groups, while dancing, pretty much anytime she felt she needed to. She says it stems from her self esteem being so low as she was always criticized as a child...I don't know. She does put people down all the time and is not a very loving person. She is very outgoing and talks a lot, to people she wants to.


----------



## MattMatt

SF-FAN said:


> The WW put me down all sorts of times, during one-on-one conversations, in groups, while dancing, pretty much anytime she felt she needed to. She says it stems from her self esteem being so low as she was always criticized as a child...I don't know. She does put people down all the time and is not a very loving person. She is very outgoing and talks a lot, to people she wants to.


She puts you down to bring you to her level. Or the level she perceives she is at.


----------



## Lovemytruck

SF-FAN said:


> The WW put me down all sorts of times, during one-on-one conversations, in groups, while dancing, pretty much anytime she felt she needed to. She says it stems from her self esteem being so low as she was always criticized as a child...I don't know. She does put people down all the time and is not a very loving person. She is very outgoing and talks a lot, to people she wants to.


Hmmmm.....

No expert here, and it doesn't matter at this point, but it sounds like some deep personality issues.

Have you ever read anything about borderline personality disorder (BPD)? Many will balk at the notion of labeling a person. 

My intent is not to throw out an excuse, but reading about the traits may give you a glimpse into some people's mindset.

She sounds like a woman that has BPD traits. At least look into it, and know that if she has made YOU feel crazy it might just be her way of dealing with her own crazy.

If none of it applies, you will be better at avoiding serious issues when you start dating again. 

There are some EXCELLENT threads here on TAM. I would also do a Google search and read some of the sites.


----------



## SF-FAN

Lovemytruck said:


> Hmmmm.....
> 
> No expert here, and it doesn't matter at this point, but it sounds like some deep personality issues.
> 
> Have you ever read anything about borderline personality disorder (BPD)? Many will balk at the notion of labeling a person.
> 
> My intent is not to throw out an excuse, but reading about the traits may give you a glimpse into some people's mindset.
> 
> She sounds like a woman that has BPD traits. At least look into it, and know that if she has made YOU feel crazy it might just be her way of dealing with her own crazy.
> 
> If none of it applies, you will be better at avoiding serious issues when you start dating again.
> 
> There are some EXCELLENT threads here on TAM. I would also do a Google search and read some of the sites.


During here sincere moments, she confided in me that it's not me or our life she has issues with, they are deep rooted issues from her childhood and the loss of her father at a young age. He was her best friend and the only one that she could go to. Her mom has never been there emotionally for her and treated her bad. 

She is seeing a therapist weekly so we'll see if anything comes of it. For now, I am moving forward with or without her.


----------



## Lovemytruck

SF-FAN said:


> During here sincere moments, she confided in me that it's not me or our life she has issues with, they are deep rooted issues from her childhood and the loss of her father at a young age. He was her best friend and the only one that she could go to. Her mom has never been there emotionally for her and treated her bad.
> 
> She is seeing a therapist weekly so we'll see if anything comes of it. For now, I am moving forward with or without her.


My exWW was cut of the same cloth. Her dad was supportive, but very passive. Her mom was harsh, and hurt her deeply as a child.

People that do suffer from childhood trauma often are beyond us. We can feel sorry for them on some level, but it was still their choice to cheat.

BPD information helps us understand ways that we are emotionally manipulated to enable their lifestyle. It gave me a much deeper understanding on the "why" stuff. It also made me realize that it was better for her and me to D. 

Maybe it has something to do with my ablitlity to cope with anger because I realize her A was more about her than it was about me.

I think Uptown was one of the best in giving BPD info on TAM.


----------



## SF-FAN

She has never blamed her childhood on why she's done what she's done to me but she acknowledges there is something wrong that she needs to get fixed and I do feel bad for her, however I've repeatedly told her there is no justification for cheating.

If she improves through therapy and really commits to R, then we'll see, until then I am moving forward.


----------



## Lovemytruck

SF-FAN said:


> She has never blamed her childhood on why she's done what she's done to me but she acknowledges there is something wrong that she needs to get fixed and I do feel bad for her, however I've repeatedly told her there is no justification for cheating.
> 
> If she improves through therapy and really commits to R, then we'll see, until then I am moving forward.


Your view is good. I don't think BPD people necessarily blame their childhood. The problem stems from their deep seated insecurity, and a belief that YOU are their savior, or their problem.

Depending on their black and white thinking, they either hate or love you.

They excell at being the "victim" and blame others for their problems. They are very self-entitled. They sometimes loath themselves, and endulge at the same time.

Maybe none of this fits for her.

I would hope that anyone trying to understand a person with childhood pain would do themselves a favor and read about personality disorders. Not to diagnose their partner, but to ensure they are moving in the right direction in their relationships.

Just my $0.02.


----------



## SF-FAN

Lovemytruck said:


> Your view is good. I don't think BPD people necessarily blame their childhood. The problem stems from their deep seated insecurity, and a belief that YOU are their savior, or their problem.
> 
> Depending on their black and white thinking, they either hate or love you.
> 
> They excell at being the "victim" and blame others for their problems. They are very self-entitled. They sometimes loath themselves, and endulge at the same time.
> 
> Maybe none of this fits for her.
> 
> I would hope that anyone trying to understand a person with childhood pain would do themselves a favor and read about personality disorders. Not to diagnose their partner, but to ensure they are moving in the right direction in their relationships.
> 
> Just my $0.02.


Some of the things you list does fit her. Along with therapy, she's going to want to have to change. If she doesn't feel she needs to, then it's all for nothing.


----------



## Tobyboy

What is the current status in your sitch? Is she still in the affair? Has she confess? Is she still working with her lover? Is she remorseful? Is she transparent?
Do you even care?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SF-FAN

Tobyboy said:


> What is the current status in your sitch? Is she still in the affair? Has she confess? Is she still working with her lover? Is she remorseful? Is she transparent?
> Do you even care?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nothing much has changed except for the fact that she has shown some remorse. She only confessed to the EA because I have no proof of anything else. I exposed the EA but don't know what the ramifications are as far as her family goes. I began doing the 180 and have continued. I am moving on like D is going to happen unless she does the heavy lifting and proves that she is truly remorseful and is willing to work at it. Basically just living for myself and kids.


----------



## nogutsnoglory

SF-FAN said:


> Nothing much has changed except for the fact that she has shown some remorse. She only confessed to the EA because I have no proof of anything else. I exposed the EA but don't know what the ramifications are as far as her family goes. I began doing the 180 and have continued. I am moving on like D is going to happen unless she does the heavy lifting and proves that she is truly remorseful and is willing to work at it. Basically just living for myself and kids.


did you ever subpoena the texts/logs?


----------



## terrence4159

this is going to be a long roller coaster ride SF fan. hang in there you will get through this man!


----------



## LongWalk

Since your marriage has not been a place where you experience affection for some time, getting out will bring relief. You're not so young but maybe you can meet someone.

Living with an unrepentant cheater will corrode your core being to a bit of powder and congealed lumps.


----------



## Vulcan2013

LongWalk said:


> Since your marriage has not been a place where you experience affection for some time, getting out will bring relief. You're not so young but maybe you can meet someone.
> 
> Living with an unrepentant cheater will corrode your core being to a bit of powder and congealed lumps.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Lovemytruck

LongWalk said:


> Since your marriage has not been a place where you experience affection for some time, getting out will bring relief. *You're not so young but maybe you can meet someone.*
> Living with an unrepentant cheater will corrode your core being to a bit of powder and congealed lumps.


I like your post, especially the last line.

I disagree with the bolded part. No offense, but the idea of not being so young will actually play to the advantage of a man. 

I assume you meant it in a positive light to comfort him, but I can say for most middle-aged or older men, the odds are definitely in their favor.

It is primarily due to the sheer numbers of women vs. men as we age.

The only reason I wanted to harp on this small point was to assure any betrayed men that their fear of finding a better woman is faulty. Been there myself. I went through a D at 45.

The pool was quite full, and it seemed obvious that there is an abundance of decent single women. We all have some type of baggage or flaws at this point, but it is possible to find a very good partner.


----------



## SF-FAN

terrence4159 said:


> this is going to be a long roller coaster ride SF fan. hang in there you will get through this man!


Today is one of the tough days. Sometimes you just have built up anger and it just erupts. I am so sick of being lied to I just let her have it but now I feel like crap - not for her - but because I was actually feeling at peace that past few days. Now I feel like I took steps back.


----------



## mahike

Hang in there most of us here know the ups and downs because we have been on this ride. This is where getting out and doing something will help you settle your feelings.

In my experience if she is only showing a little remorse she is still at it and has just gone deeper underground with it.


----------



## SF-FAN

mahike said:


> Hang in there most of us here know the ups and downs because we have been on this ride. This is where getting out and doing something will help you settle your feelings.
> 
> In my experience if she is only showing a little remorse she is still at it and has just gone deeper underground with it.


You're absolutely right. I just hate the fact that I get so angry which means I still care on some level. I wish I could just turn the feelings off like she was a stranger. I hate it!! Today is one of the harder days.


----------



## Lovemytruck

Sh!t happens. It is normal. See if you can figure out a good game plan to get out and enjoy your Friday night! Best wishes!


----------



## awake1

SF-FAN said:


> Today is one of the tough days. Sometimes you just have built up anger and it just erupts. I am so sick of being lied to I just let her have it but now I feel like crap - not for her - but because I was actually feeling at peace that past few days. Now I feel like I took steps back.


As time goes on those waves should be further and further apart. 

I know your head feels broke, worn out and you're resigned to all the imagined trouble to come, but you're wrong. This will pass.

Your wife gift wrapped you a new, better life. 

It may seem at this point almost feeling _thankful_ sounds totally insane. But it's not. 

If you seize the reigns and ride it, you have a chance to rebuild it all. Be a new better you, find a new better wife. Carve out a future that isn't filled with fighting, suspicion, lies, drama, deceit, guilt, a smashed ego and laying down while people walk over you. You no longer have to do double time to please her, you don't have to worry what she thinks. 

You should now be the most important person in your life, or at least tied for first place with anyone or anything else. 

I know you're willing to bend over backwards for other people, but now you get to do it for yourself.


----------



## SF-FAN

awake1 said:


> As time goes on those waves should be further and further apart.
> 
> I know your head feels broke, worn out and you're resigned to all the imagined trouble to come, but you're wrong. This will pass.
> 
> Your wife gift wrapped you a new, better life.
> 
> It may seem at this point almost feeling _thankful_ sounds totally insane. But it's not.
> 
> If you seize the reigns and ride it, you have a chance to rebuild it all. Be a new better you, find a new better wife. Carve out a future that isn't filled with fighting, suspicion, lies, drama, deceit, guilt, a smashed ego and laying down while people walk over you. You no longer have to do double time to please her, you don't have to worry what she thinks.
> 
> You should now be the most important person in your life, or at least tied for first place with anyone or anything else.
> 
> I know you're willing to bend over backwards for other people, but now you get to do it for yourself.


Very good advice, thank you. That is what I am trying to do, I just wish detaching wasn't so hard. There are times that I look at her and I see her for the deceit and pain she's caused so I don't feel anything but then there are other times I look at her and think, "wow, she's beautiful." The latter way of thinking makes it so hard to detach.


----------



## ceejay93

I skimmed over your thread so forgive me if you already covered this. Have you filed for D yet? If not, why? I'm not sure you can claim to be moving forward if you haven't filed. Right now, it's more like you've stagnated and are simply reaction. Stop reacting. Take action and let her fend for herself.

If, after you've filed, she shows true change, then you can consider slowing the D process or ending. But start it. She needs to feel a sense of urgency.


----------



## Disenchanted

How has the text subpoena gone? Did you get the texts?


----------



## SF-FAN

So I've stayed away for a bit just because reading some of the other posts and re-reading my posts puts me in a bad spot. For the most part I've been doing the 180 and still moving forward while she is trying to reconcile. It hasn't been easy - more often than not, I am in a haze and not really in a happy place with built up anger.

Last night I let her have it again. She was talking to me about a work situation and she brought up the OM's name. I got angry and asked why she would bring up his name. She in turn got angry at me and said she had to because he was present a the time. I told her it was a slap in the face to me and she said that I was acting immature and was not being a supportive husband and so we basically argued for the remainder of the night.

Was I in the wrong? Should I have just listened to her story? It genuinely made me mad that she brought his name up.

FYI, she has stopped all contact with the OM from her job (I've been monitoring), however our financial situation does not allow her to quit and look for another job so she is going to have contact with him at her work.


----------



## bfree

SF-FAN said:


> So I've stayed away for a bit just because reading some of the other posts and re-reading my posts puts me in a bad spot. For the most part I've been doing the 180 and still moving forward while she is trying to reconcile. It hasn't been easy - more often than not, I am in a haze and not really in a happy place with built up anger.
> 
> Last night I let her have it again. She was talking to me about a work situation and she brought up the OM's name. I got angry and asked why she would bring up his name. She in turn got angry at me and said she had to because he was present a the time. I told her it was a slap in the face to me and she said that I was acting immature and was not being a supportive husband and so we basically argued for the remainder of the night.
> 
> Was I in the wrong? Should I have just listened to her story? It genuinely made me mad that she brought his name up.
> 
> FYI, she has stopped all contact with the OM from her job (I've been monitoring), however our financial situation does not allow her to quit and look for another job so she is going to have contact with him at her work.


No you aren't wrong. You are normal. This is why you cannot reconcile right now. There is no reconciliation without full and complete no contact. I hope you mentioned that to her and warn her that so long as she still works with him you will trigger like you did last night.


----------



## turnera

That's pretty damned rude of her and to dare tell YOU you're immature?

Methinks she never really learned; R would be very unhealthy in this situation.


----------



## SF-FAN

bfree said:


> No you aren't wrong. You are normal. This is why you cannot reconcile right now. There is no reconciliation without full and complete no contact. I hope you mentioned that to her and warn her that so long as she still works with him you will trigger like you did last night.





turnera said:


> That's pretty damned rude of her and to dare tell YOU you're immature?
> 
> Methinks she never really learned; R would be very unhealthy in this situation.


I agree that R is not going to work right now that is why I am just moving forward on my own and really only spending time with my kids. 

She is an intelligent person BUT because she is working and going to school and has kids, she gets praised for it like if she's mother of the year, she thinks her actions are justified because she's stressed and has so much on her plate. Dealing with marital issues is just not a priority, at least that's how she makes it sound like and so I am really resentful of her right now. I am growing to dislike her very much.


----------



## ironman

SF-FAN said:


> So I've stayed away for a bit just because reading some of the other posts and re-reading my posts puts me in a bad spot. For the most part I've been doing the 180 and still moving forward while she is trying to reconcile. It hasn't been easy - more often than not, I am in a haze and not really in a happy place with built up anger.
> 
> Last night I let her have it again. She was talking to me about a work situation and she brought up the OM's name. I got angry and asked why she would bring up his name. She in turn got angry at me and said she had to because he was present a the time. I told her it was a slap in the face to me and *she said that I was acting immature and was not being a supportive husband* and so we basically argued for the remainder of the night.
> 
> Was I in the wrong? Should I have just listened to her story? It genuinely made me mad that she brought his name up.
> 
> FYI, she has stopped all contact with the OM from her job (I've been monitoring), however our financial situation does not allow her to quit and look for another job so she is going to have contact with him at her work.


Those are the actions of an entitled princess ... with no remorse. No reconciliation to be had here ... move on with your life (without her in it).


----------



## SF-FAN

ironman said:


> Those are the actions of an entitled princess ... with no remorse. No reconciliation to be had here ... move on with your life (without her in it).


Wow, you hit it right on the head. Funny thing is, she wasn't brought up like that. The only person that spoiled her was her father and he passed away a few years ago. She also claims that his passing will cause her to never truly be happy again.


----------



## SF-FAN

How can you love and hate someone at the same time....this is odd.


----------



## Ovid

She still has workplace contact with him, so there is no NC in place.

You are still listening to her, and even fighting with her, so no 180 is in place.


----------



## harrybrown

Tell her to get another job, and go NC with the OM.

Or get a divorce, which will be better for you in the future.

You would not have to be the backup plan and you would not have to watch her mouth move and listen to all her lies.

Divorce her and find someone that cares for you at all. You are living with an ice princess that is selfish and does not love you.

If she did, she would not mention the POSOM.


----------



## SF-FAN

I'm just tired of all of it. Tired of feeling sad, worthless, not good enough. And to make me feel even more like crap, people that I began talking to (as friends) and chatting with through Facebook and texts have all of a sudden stopped contacting me. Even if it is about school, I either get a short answer or no reply.

Things like this really kill a person's self esteem....Just tired of it all.


----------



## vi_bride04

Then do something about it.


----------



## SF-FAN

vi_bride04 said:


> Then do something about it.


What, force people to talk to me?


----------



## badmemory

SF-FAN said:


> FYI, she has stopped all contact with the OM from her job (I've been monitoring), however our financial situation does not allow her to quit and look for another job *so she is going to have contact with him at her work.*


It's easy for someone who may not understand your financial situation to say that you should demand she quit her job - to insure no contact. But I'll say it anyway.

At the very least you should give her a deadline to find another job.


----------



## vi_bride04

No get rid of that unremorseful cheating wife of yours. 

Thats a good start to gain back some of your confidence. 

NC is required for R. If she still works with posOM there is contact. She absolutely needs to find a new job (or he does) for any type of R. You are not in R. You are not even dealing with a remorseful WW.

Get rid of that trash and get out of limbo. Its extremely liberating.


----------



## SF-FAN

badmemory said:


> It's easy for someone who may not understand your financial situation to say that you should demand she quit her job - to insure no contact. But I'll say it anyway.
> 
> At the very least you should give her a deadline to find another job.


She is only going to be there another few months as she is going to begin doing what she is going to school for.



vi_bride04 said:


> No get rid of that unremorseful cheating wife of yours.
> 
> Thats a good start to gain back some of your confidence.
> 
> NC is required for R. If she still works with posOM there is contact. She absolutely needs to find a new job (or he does) for any type of R. You are not in R. You are not even dealing with a remorseful WW.
> 
> Get rid of that trash and get out of limbo. Its extremely liberating.


Maybe I've been too soft on the 180 and getting rid of her but how do you not feel like a loser when it seems like other people don't really want to talk to you? That's a self esteem killer too.


----------



## Vanguard

SF-FAN said:


> As I mentioned above, I'd like to get concrete evidence so that I have proof and not just an assumption. This is where it gets tough. I don't have access to her phone because *she has a passcode on it that I don't know.* She doesn't use the computer much so a keylogger would likely not do too much good and a VAR may help but my concern is that she'd find it before I could get concrete proof and then make me out to be an insecure a**hole to her family.


There's your proof. 

Seriously. *Everyone in this goddamn forum please listen.* If your spouse has a lock on their phone or computer or whatever---

There's a very, very narrow list of explanations and none of them are good.

*EDIT:* Whoops, sorry. I didn't read through the whole thread. I'm sorry man. 

But what I said still stands, for everyone!


----------



## vi_bride04

SF-FAN said:


> Maybe I've been too soft on the 180 and getting rid of her but how do you not feel like a loser when it seems like other people don't really want to talk to you? That's a self esteem killer too.


Talk to them. Say "hey, why do you avoid me like the plague?"

If you didn't expose to mutual friends be sure that she spewed her lies around. 

Remember, as nice as it is to have people in your life who care about you and support you, the only person in this WORLD who you have to rely on 100% is yourself. So start treating yourself better, ok? 

Have you read co-dependent no more?


----------



## SF-FAN

vi_bride04 said:


> Talk to them. Say "hey, why do you avoid me like the plague?"
> 
> If you didn't expose to mutual friends be sure that she spewed her lies around.
> 
> Remember, as nice as it is to have people in your life who care about you and support you, the only person in this WORLD who you have to rely on 100% is yourself. So start treating yourself better, ok?
> 
> Have you read co-dependent no more?


They are not mutual friends, they were classmates I had recently started chatting with but it was nice. Many of my friends are married with their own families so I don't get to talk to them much.

I have not read co-dependent no more...I need to. Is there a link?


----------



## awake1

SF-FAN said:


> She is only going to be there another few months as she is going to begin doing what she is going to school for.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I've been too soft on the 180 and getting rid of her but how do you not feel like a loser when it seems like other people don't really want to talk to you? That's a self esteem killer too.


Therein lies the rub. If you read no more mr nice guy, you should remember the crucial component of decoupling your self esteem from the rest of the world. 

The internal voice in your head is THE most important one to change. 

Forget what other people think about you, or whatever. That voice that screams "I am nothing without WWs love", "I am nothing without money, I am nothing without my kids, I am nothing without a wife or partner" etc. 

All those little self doubts need squashed. 

You need to be your own wellspring of positive reinforcement. You are not your money, your wife, your friends, none of that makes you any better or worse. 


After FWWs affairs, I lost a friend. He was actually the best man at my wedding. He refused to contact me, because his wife was friends with my FWW. 

But if you stand back and look, if a "friend" is going to stop talking to you because of that, he's no friend. 

Imagine a friend of yours got cheated on, would you stop talking to him? No of course not. You'd offer a kind ear and a beer. You'd offer to take him out, get a bite to eat, grab a beer, lend your ear on facebook or over the phone. Whatever. You'd be there for a friend. 

These are not your friends, because they aren't friendly. You don't need people who are conditional "friends". What good is that?


----------



## Disenchanted

SF-FAN I just want to apologize for the advice I gave you earlier in your thread. I made a mistake.

You are not moving on, you have forced yourself into a hellish limbo. You didn't gather any evidence and from your lack of answer I assume you never did subpoena any texts (and I doubt any lawyer would do that without and actual case).

You haven't gotten enough information to convince yourself to actually move on so now you are living with a cheater and you've resigned yourself to it.

I'm sorry, I'm really upset with myself for assuming you really had the resolve to actually move on and file for divorce.

ETA The road to healing the destruction of your self esteem is to start sticking up for yourself and treating yourself with dignity and respect. Which means not tolerating anyone's bullsh!t.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

SF-FAN said:


> I agree that R is not going to work right now that is why I am just moving forward on my own and really only spending time with my kids.
> 
> She is an intelligent person BUT because she is working and going to school and has kids, she gets praised for it like if she's mother of the year, *she thinks her actions are justified because she's stressed and has so much on her plate. Dealing with marital issues is just not a priority,* at least that's how she makes it sound like and so I am really resentful of her right now. I am growing to dislike her very much.


You should say that to her and also say that the marriage should have always been and should always be the #1 priority. So a job is more important than your marriage.

There's a great line in the Five Love Languages, about a workaholic husband. "So do you want to be at the top of the mountain, but be alone?"

Good luck man. Your obviously not as important to your wife as you need to be and you can't R until that happens. For her to react the way she did was just wrong, on MANY levels. What is she doing (reading books, coming on sites like this) to fix herself? Because whatever she's doing, it's not working.


----------



## turnera

SF-FAN said:


> What, force people to talk to me?


No, go out and live a fabulous life. 

She isn't the sum of you. She doesn't even register in terms of your value, worth, friendworthiness. Just go out and love your life. She - or someone better - will catch up with you.


----------



## turnera

SF-FAN said:


> They are not mutual friends, they were classmates I had recently started chatting with but it was nice. Many of my friends are married with their own families so I don't get to talk to them much.


I thought you said they won't talk to you.


----------



## SF-FAN

turnera said:


> I thought you said they won't talk to you.


New friends from school were just being short. I think I was overreacting to an emotional day in which people were just to busy to chat with me. I reached out to a few people and they were short with me - being on an emotional roller coaster and feeling insecure will play tricks on your self esteem.


----------



## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> SF-FAN I just want to apologize for the advice I gave you earlier in your thread. I made a mistake.
> 
> You are not moving on, you have forced yourself into a hellish limbo. You didn't gather any evidence and from your lack of answer I assume you never did subpoena any texts (and I doubt any lawyer would do that without and actual case).
> 
> You haven't gotten enough information to convince yourself to actually move on so now you are living with a cheater and you've resigned yourself to it.
> 
> I'm sorry, I'm really upset with myself for assuming you really had the resolve to actually move on and file for divorce.
> 
> ETA The road to healing the destruction of your self esteem is to start sticking up for yourself and treating yourself with dignity and respect. Which means not tolerating anyone's bullsh!t.


Sorry to disappoint you but honestly, I don't care what expectations you have of me...or anyone else for that matter. What advice givers on this site have to understand is that every situation is unique so there is no boilerplate script to follow. I have taken a lot of advice from people here and am using it, however some does not apply or will not work in my situation.

Though at times I do get upset and irate, I feel very strong about how I am acting towards my wife. She does not have the same hold on me she once did. Do I want to lose the 8 years of marriage and family? NO but I am prepared to start a new life and am acting like it. I really do not feel like I am in limbo. I am living my life for me and my kids and for the moment I am o.k. with that. If she makes a drastic change and we can R, great. If not, I will be ahead of the game and will likely be able to move forward as I have been.


----------



## Disenchanted

SF-FAN said:


> Sorry to disappoint you but honestly, I don't care what expectations you have of me...or anyone else for that matter.


That's all good, and I am not disappointed in you at all.

I am disappointed in myself. Live and learn I guess.

It's your bed, I'm not the one who has to lie in it.


----------



## Lovemytruck

SF-FAN said:


> Sorry to disappoint you but honestly, I don't care what expectations you have of me...or anyone else for that matter. What advice givers on this site have to understand is that every situation is unique so there is no boilerplate script to follow. I have taken a lot of advice from people here and am using it, however some does not apply or will not work in my situation.
> 
> Though at times I do get upset and irate, I feel very strong about how I am acting towards my wife. She does not have the same hold on me she once did. Do I want to lose the 8 years of marriage and family? NO but I am prepared to start a new life and am acting like it. I really do not feel like I am in limbo. I am living my life for me and my kids and for the moment I am o.k. with that. If she makes a drastic change and we can R, great. If not, I will be ahead of the game and will likely be able to move forward as I have been.


I think what you are describing is the typical ebb and flow of emotions during the time you are in limbo.

Sometimes we read things on threads, and it sounds like waffling. When I think back, I did the same thing for months. Many of the times in R/limbo, I felt that everything was good. It really is a rollercoster.

Maybe our perspective makes us hope that you will move quickly and decisively. I empathize with your day-to-day moods and changes in your mind.

Bottom line, do it your way. Right or wrong, it is your path to choose. Eventually we hope that you make the best choice for YOU, and you live with little to no regret.


----------



## SF-FAN

Disenchanted said:


> That's all good, and I am not disappointed in you at all.
> 
> I am disappointed in myself. Live and learn I guess.
> 
> It's your bed, *I'm not the one who has to lie in it.*


Exactly which also means you don't know the details of my every day life. Which also means some advice or perspective may not be completely accurate. I know what my wife is and what she isn't. Am I taking her back with open arms? NO. Am I saying things are fine? NO. I am worrying about myself with no expectations. Do I get angry at her at times? Yes, but regardless that is going to happen together or not because we have kids. Bottom line is now I am living for me and my kids, no one else. I am detaching the way that feels comfortable for me.



Lovemytruck said:


> I think what you are describing is the typical ebb and flow of emotions during the time you are in limbo.
> 
> Sometimes we read things on threads, and it sounds like waffling. When I think back, I did the same thing for months. Many of the times in R/limbo, I felt that everything was good. It really is a rollercoster.
> 
> Maybe our perspective makes us hope that you will move quickly and decisively. I empathize with your day-to-day moods and changes in your mind.
> 
> Bottom line, do it your way. Right or wrong, it is your path to choose. Eventually we hope that you make the best choice for YOU, and you live with little to no regret.


It is a roller coaster but I feel strong and she no longer has the hold on me she once did. Before, not getting a phone call or text from her all day would completely bum me out. Now, I'm completely fine. I can only change myself and that's what I am doing.


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## illwill

Good for you. You sound like you know what is at stake. You have a dealbreaker. Keep it and you will be fine.


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## weightlifter

Just curious SF if she graduated, left that place and what happened.


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## Working1

SF-FAN said:


> Since in her mind she is not doing nothing wrong, and she does spend quality time with the kids, in her mind she is a great mother. She acknowledges I am a great father as well but am a boring un-social husband.


This: "boring unsocial" is a classic justification of needing and EA.


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## warlock07

Too bad he did not find any evidence...and mostly won't find anything either. Wish he did something like GPS or VAR her before he confronted her.


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