# Just some thoughts



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Thanks to some comments by @notmyjamie I have decided to post some of the thoughts I have had recently about my marriage. Over the last few months I have learned quite a bit about my wife's sexuality. The most important thing is something that I already knew, but for some reason we have been able to paper over it for the last 6+ years. That is: sexual intimacy is not very important to her and she will put in the least amount of energy possible to have a 'decent' sex life. This is why I mentioned to notmyjamie: "I hate feeling like she is just going through the motions for me. It sucks all of the joy out of it." In the last few weeks I have come to think of it as the emotional equivalent of 'star fish sex'.

To give an example of what I mean. I might mention to my wife; 'I really like seeing you in that sexy lingerie'. Her response is: 'just let me know when you want me to wear it. I'm willing'. We have actually developed into a dom/sub relationship, but it is not because I want to be dominant per say and she does not enjoy being submissive. We have this relationship because anything else would require more from her.

To be fair; in the last few months I have come to understand her much better and she does not see the need to put in more effort. I have come to understand that for her everything is about sexual intercourse (penetration). The build up and foreplay have essentially no role in her sexuality, she is completely focused on the finish. If I ask point blank, do you enjoy the touching or kissing or whatever she will say 'yes'. If I ask if she 'wants' those things, the response is 'I know they mean a lot to you'. Even in her fantasizing these things don't play a role. When she is imagining things; the man and woman both want it and go at it. Nothing else needed. I asked about how the cloths come off and the response was; 'they just disappear, or magically move out of the way'. In my mind, I am thinking; there are about 15 fun ways to removing the clothing.

I have read that men emotionally connect through sex and that has always seemed to be the situation for me. In the last few weeks I have noticed that has changed. As I have come to understand her more I am finding that the emotional connection is not happening because we are not sharing intimacy (as I see it) we are just screwing. There have been a few times recently that after we are done I have the thought; 'this is what a one night stand must feel like. I really don't care if she is in my bed or anything about her, there is just no connection'. The lack of emotional connection is bothering me to the point that I avoided intimacy with my wife this last week and I know that I can easily avoid it again this week. 

I am not sure what I want to do from here. 

I am not really looking for advice. I am mostly just writing down some of my recent thoughts in a way that helps me organize them.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Well written, Sir!

Maybe when I was a tad more sophomoric, in my academic days, sex was foremostly the end all to everything ~ which in and of itself, seems so unilateral, one-sided, and totally self-serving!

Experience in living and rationalizing one's feelings, along with doing the very same of the one's whom you love, revere, and display empathetic feelings takes precedence, greatly to the point that one learns the axiom that while receiving is nice, that giving in love is just far more nicer!

Perhaps this is conjecture for fantasyland, but over the due passage of time, that is exactly how I feel! 

My heart goes out to you, @leftfield ~
I know of what you speak!*


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

How old are you both? How long have you been together? Has she always been like this?


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Since I am just randomly spewing out thoughts, I'm just going to keep going.

I don't believe it is possible for me to go back and unknow what I currently know so going back to the way things were is out. So that leaves me with several choices that I don't really like.

1. I can bring this up and try and work on it. Ultimately we are two very different people when it comes to this and I don't see a workable option going forward. My wife already thinks I over thinks things, so bringing this up introduces secondary issues.
2. I can try the 'fake it tell you make it' option and keep things how they have been for several years, I just keep my feelings to myself.
3. We can decide to shut down our sex life and essentially have a sexless marriage unless one of use decides we need to get off. This would cause some rather drastic changes to our overall relationship, but on the plus side this is the option that most fits her sexually.
4. We can divorce and look for a better sexual connection in a new relationship. The biggest challenge to this is that she will promise almost anything to avoid it. She seems to think other men will not connect with her either.
5. Some other option that I am not seeing right now.

None of those are appealing to me. The kindest one for my wife would be the second one.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Have the two of you ever given thought to considering marital or sexual counseling?*


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Livvie said:


> How old are you both? How long have you been together? Has she always been like this?


I'm mid 40's she is early 40's. We just celebrated our 19 anniversary. As far as I know, this is who she is. It has taken her a long, long time to open up to me sexually.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Realistic sex doll? I didn't know it was legal to marry one?


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

arbitrator said:


> *Have the two of you ever given thought to considering marital or sexual counseling?*


Yes, when I have wanted to do it she has been uninterested. When she has decided that it would be good, I find it pointless. Neither of us have ever brought it up when the other would agree to it.

Counselors often spend much of their time and effort trying to help the two understand each other. (You know the whole woman are from Venus men are from Mars idea) In this case, I think that we both are communicating very clearly and we do understand each other. I am doubtful that counseling is what we need at this time.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

leftfield said:


> Since I am just randomly spewing out thoughts, I'm just going to keep going.
> 
> I don't believe it is possible for me to go back and unknow what I currently know so going back to the way things were is out. So that leaves me with several choices that I don't really like.
> 
> ...


Before you get to options, I’d recommend being clear about two things: 

1. What precisely is your problem?

2. How badly to you want to solve it?


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Marduk said:


> Before you get to options, I’d recommend being clear about two things:
> 
> 1. What precisely is your problem?
> 
> 2. How badly to you want to solve it?


The problem, for me, is that sexual intimacy (not just screwing) is one of the main ways that I emotionally connect. My wife will go through the motions, but there is nothing there on her part. Knowing this destroys the ability to connect through sexual intimacy. 

The second question is a lot more complicated. To keep it short; I think I'm looking to accept it for what it is and not solve it.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Realistic sex doll? I didn't know it was legal to marry one?


You win my LOL for the day.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

leftfield said:


> The problem, for me, is that sexual intimacy (not just screwing) is one of the main ways that I emotionally connect. My wife will go through the motions, but there is nothing there on her part. Knowing this destroys the ability to connect through sexual intimacy.


Hang on. You are trying to solve for emotional intimacy with sex? Isn’t the problem then a lack of emotional intimacy and not sex then? 



> The second question is a lot more complicated. To keep it short; I think I'm looking to accept it for what it is and not solve it.


Not really an answer. Maybe on a scale of 1-5, with 5 being the most important thing in your life and 1 being something that just irritates you, where would it be?

If it were possible to improve your emotional connection with your wife in ways that had nothing at all to do with sex, would that hit the mark with you?


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Let's turn this inside-out. What's in it for your wife? What does she enjoy, being married to you? What does she think you bring to the table? Why will she promise anything to avoid divorce? 

Let's get to here "promising anything" gig. She'll promise anything but? She quickly reverts? Is there a "Groundhog Day" aspect to her where it gets frustrating because the same things, the same promises, occur over and over and over again, lasting a short while before she goes back to her old ways?

Why is it impossible to enforce accountability? Is this an issue with you as well? You mentioned that marriage counseling won't work because at any one time either one of you will nix the idea. Why are you inconsistent in seeing the need?

What about a sex therapist instead? I have no experience in this area, but maybe there's a connection that can be found with a bit of work. 

And then there's the elephant in the closet. Some of us here are just amazed that you have a partner who's very willing to have sex with you, with the apparent issue being a lack of desire or passion. And we're surprised that you're projecting forward to a sexless marriage when it seems like you're so much better off than some of us, that you've got something you can work with. And that you've come to this epiphany at a young-enough age to matter. 

Just some rambling thoughts from a troubled guy...


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Marduk said:


> Hang on. You are trying to solve for emotional intimacy with sex? Isn’t the problem then a lack of emotional intimacy and not sex then?
> 
> I have a premonition that you and I are going to end up talking in circles about this. Sex is not the issue and I am not trying to solve something with sex. Being able to share sexual intimacy (this does not even need to include intercourse. Physical intimacy might be a better term) with my partner is very important to me and my ability to connect with her.
> 
> ...


It is greater than 1. Having said that, the only person on this planet that I have any control over is myself. Therefor I am looking for ways within myself to make this a 1 or less. That might include me changing or that might include me taking some action, I don't know yet. This is not the answer you are looking for. I will tell you that behind my faith in god, my relationship with my wife is the most important thing in the world to me (maybe that is what I need to change). 

My wife and I are able to emotionally connect through other things. Those things do not replace sexual (physical) intimacy. If it helps to make things clear my love languages are quality time and physical touch. Sexual (Physical) intimacy hits both of those in one thing. I can connect with my wife with out physical touch.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

So, outside of sex, is there any physical touch happening? Does she hold your hand, rub your back as you walk by, keep her hand on your leg as you're driving, that sort of thing? Are you doing any of those things? If not, start...lead by example. She may learn she likes and start reciprocating without realizing she's doing it. I do those things all the time and a lot of the time I don't even realize I'm doing it. As she gets more and more used to those types of touches, touching during sex might become a more natural thing for her. 

Just an idea.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

notmyjamie said:


> So, outside of sex, is there any physical touch happening? Does she hold your hand, rub your back as you walk by, keep her hand on your leg as you're driving, that sort of thing? *Are you doing any of those things? If not, start...lead by example.*


The problem with this is that the OP will be giving his wife emotional support without receiving the intimacy, which is his language of love. On the long run, he will resent it and stop the emotional support, which will make things even worse (although I don't think they can get any worse). Having said that, she might respond, if he is not doing it. If he is already doing it, he is screwed. It's a catch-22 situation and not solvable, unless the OP's wife is prepared to give the OP what he wants, without turning the whole thing into a pity sex charade...

OP: you two are incompatible. If you don't want to divorce, your only option is to suck it up and be happy with what you get (this is coming from someone who hasn't had sex with his wife for 2 years now)... good luck!


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

leftfield said:


> I have a premonition that you and I are going to end up talking in circles about this. Sex is not the issue and I am not trying to solve something with sex. Being able to share sexual intimacy (this does not even need to include intercourse. Physical intimacy might be a better term) with my partner is very important to me and my ability to connect with her.


I think you're conflating two things for some reason, and that may be part of the problem. I also very much connect sexually, but there are many, many ways to do that for me - all the way from just sleeping naked and not having sex at all, to having a wild sexy weekend without the kids. But I wonder if you're looking for something here that isn't well-defined. It's sounding something like 'being able to be sexually vulnerable?' Or is your definition of sexual intimacy different?

If you want more sex, then having more sex directly speaks to that, and it sounds like your wife is willing when you initiate, generally.

If you want sexier sex, or better sex, then you're going to have to define for her what that means, and then seek it.

If it's initiation you want her to do, but she just won't do it, then you're either going to have to let that desire go or let her go. Similarly if you're wanting a more sexually expressive/connective person, and she just won't do it, then it's also choice time.

But I think you may find that what you're seeking may be different things at different times, and if you're like me it might take quite a bit of introspection to figure out what it is that you actually want, and why. I can go into what I did there if it's of interest.



> It is greater than 1. Having said that, the only person on this planet that I have any control over is myself. Therefor I am looking for ways within myself to make this a 1 or less. That might include me changing or that might include me taking some action, I don't know yet. This is not the answer you are looking for. I will tell you that behind my faith in god, my relationship with my wife is the most important thing in the world to me (maybe that is what I need to change).
> 
> My wife and I are able to emotionally connect through other things. Those things do not replace sexual (physical) intimacy. If it helps to make things clear my love languages are quality time and physical touch. Sexual (Physical) intimacy hits both of those in one thing. I can connect with my wife with out physical touch.


This is very, very good. I'm not seeking any particular answer with this question except to test if it's an annoyance or if it's a deal-breaker. If it's a 1 or 2 for me, I probably would just drop it. But those kinds of things are actually 4s or 5s for me, even though sometimes I want them to be 1s.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

@notmyjamie, Yes there is a lot of non sexual touch that happens in our relationship. It is very important to her and something that would cause issues if I stopped. It does not lead her to want more, in her mind they are two completely separate things. I initiate a majority of it. She is passive even when it comes to her own needs.
@Inabsentia, Yes I think we are incompatible. For years I have thought it was something we could work on, so I tried. Before I head for divorce I need to answers some questions first. Such as:
1. Are my expectations reasonable? Maybe I am a sex addict and I don't know it.
2. Am I to needy? Is being with me to much work for anyone to put up with?
3. Is there something better? If there is, do I even care to pursue it?
Honestly, my thoughts are running all over the place, so I will stop here for now.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

leftfield said:


> [MENTION=336287]1. Are my expectations reasonable? Maybe I am a sex addict and I don't know it.
> 2. Am I to needy? Is being with me to much work for anyone to put up with?
> 3. Is there something better? If there is, do I even care to pursue it?


IMO:
1. Yes, and no.
2. No, and no.
3. Yes, absolutely (but no guarantee you'll find someone), and only you can answer how much you care.

_Part_ of my problems with my first marriage are similar to yours, but at least you can have sex if you initiate - mine was sexless. I decided the lack of intimacy (not just sex) was a deal breaker and left. That was the best decision I ever made re: that relationship.


----------



## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

Perhaps your problem is perusing these forums too often. Try and take a break from the internet forums (dead bedrooms, sex within marriage...etc) and see how you do. I'm about your age and I noticed that the more I look at these forums, the more problems I seem to generate in my head with my wife. Once I stop perusing these forums, my relationship gets a lot better within a few days. 

Your situation is not unlike many others and probably a lot better than most. To even think one second about divorcing her over this is bat**** crazy. Go hug your wife and take a break from this.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Marduk said:


> I think you're conflating two things for some reason, and that may be part of the problem. I also very much connect sexually, but there are many, many ways to do that for me - all the way from just sleeping naked and not having sex at all, to having a wild sexy weekend without the kids. But I wonder if you're looking for something here that isn't well-defined. It's sounding something like 'being able to be sexually vulnerable?' Or is your definition of sexual intimacy different?
> I can connect sexually through all kids of things. All the way from having a romantic night out, to taking a shower together, to giving her a massage, to trying a new sex position. Sexual vulnerability is part of it. I do want to share my sexual desire with someone who is interested in it. My definition is sharing something with my partner of an intimate nature that I would not share with someone else.
> 
> If you want more sex, then having more sex directly speaks to that, and it sounds like your wife is willing when you initiate, generally.
> ...


It is kind of a big deal. I need to change that.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

leftfield said:


> @
> [MENTION=49555]Inabsentia, Yes I think we are incompatible. For years I have thought it was something we could work on, so I tried. Before I head for divorce I need to answers some questions first. Such as:
> 1. Are my expectations reasonable? Maybe I am a sex addict and I don't know it.
> 2. Am I to needy? Is being with me to much work for anyone to put up with?
> ...



You are pretty normal... I too loved my wife to the extreme and our relationship was very unbalanced... I haven't managed to find a solution. Do you have kids? If not, and you are very unhappy, there is only one solution to all of this...


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

leftfield said:


> 1. Are my expectations reasonable? Maybe I am a sex addict and I don't know it.


What exactly are you expecting? Could you write it down and define it?



> 2. Am I to needy? Is being with me to much work for anyone to put up with?


 It doesn't sound like it to me.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

leftfield said:


> It is kind of a big deal. I need to change that.


It sounds like what you're really seeking here is for her to be more interested in having sex with you. Things like initiating sex, spontaneously doing sexual things, and generally letting you know that you're sexually desired?

Do I have it?


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Marduk said:


> It sounds like what you're really seeking here is for her to be more interested in having sex with you. Things like initiating sex, spontaneously doing sexual things, and generally letting you know that you're sexually desired?
> 
> Do I have it?


Yes, I would like any of that. I would absolutely love this: (quoting notmyjamie)
"Jeez...that is VERY one sided. If it were me, and my guy said "I'd love to see you in some sexy lingerie. I'd take some of the ownership in making it happen. I'd go into the store with him, see what he likes, show him what I like, and buy something together. Once I wore it for him I'd appreciate it greatly if he threw some compliments my way and rocked my world. That would 100% increase the chance of my wearing it again. ........

He told me recently about a long time fantasy of his...nothing too kinky...very easy to do for him. It will happen for him. And I will thoroughly enjoy it knowing how much he'll enjoy it."


I will think about whether I can define it better or not, but I can give a very clear example of what I hope for. If I asked my wife to come to bed naked. I would like her to express any kind of positivity. The only thing she will ever express is "I am willing". Then I am left thinking, 'Yeah so is a prostitute'. I'm not interested in my wife acting the part of a prostitute.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

In Absentia said:


> You are pretty normal... I too loved my wife to the extreme and our relationship was very unbalanced... I haven't managed to find a solution. Do you have kids? If not, and you are very unhappy, there is only one solution to all of this...



We have 4 kids from 15-8. I am not 'very unhappy', but I am not able to be myself.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

leftfield said:


> Yes, I would like any of that. I would absolutely love this: (quoting notmyjamie)
> "Jeez...that is VERY one sided. If it were me, and my guy said "I'd love to see you in some sexy lingerie. I'd take some of the ownership in making it happen. I'd go into the store with him, see what he likes, show him what I like, and buy something together. Once I wore it for him I'd appreciate it greatly if he threw some compliments my way and rocked my world. That would 100% increase the chance of my wearing it again. ........
> 
> He told me recently about a long time fantasy of his...nothing too kinky...very easy to do for him. It will happen for him. And I will thoroughly enjoy it knowing how much he'll enjoy it."
> ...


OK. I think I'm getting it now. Thanks for your patience with me.

You expressed a desire: come to bed naked.

She expressed consent: I am willing come to bed naked.

So that's a very, very good start.

But then, *you* overlay thinking that she's not positive about it (and she may not be even though she's willing to make you happy).

And then you go right off the deep and with the prostitute stuff. That's you, man, not her. On the one hand, if your wife wants to please you - and only you - sexually, does that make her a prostitute or does it make her a loving and giving wife? On the other hand, if your wife is willing to be somewhat used sexually, and you want the sexual experience, then why do you feel guilty or badly about that? These are your thoughts weighing you down here, man, not hers.

If your wife wanted to go to a movie you didn't want to see, and you were willing but not ecstatic about it, should she feel guilty if you both go? Of course not, you agreed to go and were probably just happy to sit with her in the dark, holding her hand, and eating popcorn. Would this make you a movie prostitute or would this make you a giving husband invested in his wife's happiness? Wouldn't you want her to just accept your willingness to go and not worry about or badger you about if you "want" to see this movie or not? Wouldn't you want her to just give in to the experience and enjoy it for her own sake, and know that you're right there with her happy that she's happy? It makes me happy when my wife is a little selfish with something she wants, and I get to play a role in giving it to her. I think sex is partly being giving, but also partly being OK with being selfish.

I felt the same way at times. I learned to get over it by deeply - and I mean very deeply - accepting my sexuality. I took a long time, like about a year, and I thought and wrote about my own sexuality. I detailed out what I wanted to get from my sexuality, and why. Experiences I wanted to have, experiences that I had that I didn't want, or things I wanted again or more. I went back through my own history and even childhood and uncovered things about sexual triggers I have, and why they are there. And then I just kind of sat back and said to myself 'well, there I am. That's who I am and what I want and why." And then I just went for it.

I knew what I wanted because I now had a laundry list. I knew why I wanted those things, so I had an answer if my wife ever asked "you want what? why would you want that?" So she could get to know me better. She even started to do similar things. 

And I found because I accepted myself, I also accepted her better. No guilt or expectations. If she said no, then no problem. If she said she wasn't into it tonight, but she would do whatever I wanted just for me, then I would go for it with great gusto and know what I wanted... and then quite often, she'd get into it, too. And I learned to accept consent for what it really was... meaning, if she said yes, then I accepted a yes without putting a bunch of second guessing into it.

She seemed a lot happier. I certainly was.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Marduk said:


> OK. I think I'm getting it now. Thanks for your patience with me.
> 
> You expressed a desire: come to bed naked.
> 
> ...


I have gone (am going) through a similar experience. I also have a list of things I would like to do and I keep adding to it. I have been doing those things with my wife this fall. The experiences have gone good enough. One experience recently has changed my feelings about it. This experience was based around giving my wife a whole body massage. I thought it went great. At the end I asked what she thought and she said she really enjoyed it. I asked if she would want to do it again. She just sat there silent. After several minutes she told me she was willing to. Over the next few days I asked about several other experiences, again she confirmed that she enjoyed them all. Then I asked how she felt about them. Again the answer was silence. After that I confirmed that the only thing she is attached to is the sex (penetration). I have not been able to connect with her through sexual intimacy since.

I am glad that your experience lead to a good things for you and your wife. My experience has lead to a loss of connection to my wife. A few weeks ago I could honestly say that 'I loved planning and creating great experiences for my wife'. I can't say that now. A few weeks ago I had a list of things that I would have loved to do with my wife. Now I have a list and a woman that is willing to go through the motions. 

The biggest thing I have learned from this is: if one partner feels they are connecting with the other but that feeling is not mutual, then what you really have is one partner deceiving them self.

Thank you for helping me clarify what my expectations are. My expectation is to have a partner that has and expresses a positive attitude towards sexual intimacy.


----------



## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

It's kind of like how different people enjoy watching TV or not. For some people, they enjoy the generic activity "watching TV" itself. Others may like watching just specific shows. And others may prefer totally different activities like reading books. I would say your wife is like someone who doesn't like watching TV at all, but will sit and watch with you. She doesn't really care what's on, but the important thing is that she cares enough about you that she'll be with you while you watch TV.

I hope from reading these boards, you realize that you are luckier than most in that your wife seems mostly willing to go along with what you want. In many of these cases, the wife seems to not want anything to do with sex. 

Realistically, it's not likely you'll be able to achieve any kind of sexual turnaround. Maybe you will, and lucky you if it happens, but chances are things will always kind of like this. If you didn't have kids, I would say to divorce since it's not really worth the effort trying to fix it. But since you have young kids, I think you need to greatly incorporate their needs when you consider what to do. Lackluster sex isn't really the best reason to divorce and your kids are probably not going to understand if the family breaks up for that reason.

With all that into consideration, I would advise you to appreciate the relationship you have and the effort she is putting forth. Enjoy the moment without worrying so much about her motivations. She is giving you a gift of herself. Appreciate the fact that she's making that gesture. I suspect that the more you express your joy and happiness in the moment, the happier she will feel that she's contributing to that. Even if she never enjoys the actual act of sex more, she will likely get more enjoyment from making you happy.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

leftfield said:


> I have gone (am going) through a similar experience. I also have a list of things I would like to do and I keep adding to it. I have been doing those things with my wife this fall. The experiences have gone good enough. One experience recently has changed my feelings about it. This experience was based around giving my wife a whole body massage. I thought it went great. At the end I asked what she thought and she said she really enjoyed it. I asked if she would want to do it again. She just sat there silent. After several minutes she told me she was willing to. Over the next few days I asked about several other experiences, again she confirmed that she enjoyed them all. Then I asked how she felt about them. Again the answer was silence. After that I confirmed that the only thing she is attached to is the sex (penetration). I have not been able to connect with her through sexual intimacy since.
> 
> I am glad that your experience lead to a good things for you and your wife. My experience has lead to a loss of connection to my wife. A few weeks ago I could honestly say that 'I loved planning and creating great experiences for my wife'. I can't say that now. A few weeks ago I had a list of things that I would have loved to do with my wife. Now I have a list and a woman that is willing to go through the motions.
> 
> ...


OK a couple things I'd recommend trying:

1. when you're talking to her about sex, or you're having sex, try very hard to get out of your head and to think about consent like a green light. As in, she's given you the go-ahead, so then go ahead. If she says yes, and then you waffle or second guess or ask her about if she's really good with it, it can very much disincent her from saying yes in the future. Besides, if she's doing something for you to make you happy... then you might as well cherish what she's agreeing to do instead of not enjoying it. So check your thoughts here.

2. be careful about the massages and stuff - meaning, be careful about doing things for her that you want her to want, but she doesn't want. It can come off a little passive-aggressive, and a little 'nice guy-ish'. Meaning, you're giving her a massage that isn't really for her, it's really for you... but you're disappointed she wasn't jumping for joy about it. If the full-body massage you gave her was really for you, then enjoy it. For you. If you want her to enjoy something, then it's going to have to be something she enjoys. Sounds like that's penetrative sex. 

3. glad you know what you want. But... do you know _why_ you want those things? Do you know what it's really about? And what you're really trying to get out of it?

4. when you say 'willing to go through the motions' what do you mean? Is she actively being a drag when you do this stuff? Or is it that when you ask her about what's in it for her, she can't give you an answer, because there's not that much in it for her? Those are two different things.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Marduk said:


> OK a couple things I'd recommend trying:
> 
> 1. when you're talking to her about sex, or you're having sex, try very hard to get out of your head and to think about consent like a green light. As in, she's given you the go-ahead, so then go ahead. If she says yes, and then you waffle or second guess or ask her about if she's really good with it, it can very much disincent her from saying yes in the future. Besides, if she's doing something for you to make you happy... then you might as well cherish what she's agreeing to do instead of not enjoying it. So check your thoughts here.
> How exactly do you think, I have ended up with the experiences of 'feeling like I just had a one night stand'? Yes, I can do this. No, I do not enjoy it. Yes, this is why I am currently avoiding intimacy with my wife. I do appreciate the gift my wife was willing to give. I am finding that I no longer desire it.
> ...


She likes penetration. When one of us needs that then we can do it. YEAH!!!


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Marduk, 

My needs from my marriage relationship include an emotional connection through sexual intimacy. My wife is unable or unwilling to meet that need. She is willing to go through the motions that would allow for that connection, but she is not able to actually connect with me. I appreciate that my wife has been willing to put in as much effort as she has. I know that many women would not. It appears that her best efforts do not meet my needs. There is nothing wrong with that. I don't need her to try anymore.

On the other hand, I am able to meet her needs. I have done so, I am currently doing so and I plan to keep doing so. I do this willingly whether or not my own needs are being met.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

@leftfield

I feel compelled to add something to my statement that you quoted above. My guy recently told me he'd love to see me in some really high heeled shoes. Normally I don't wear those. I just bought a pair. I'm willing to wear them for him because he will love it. I will enjoy that he loves it. I will, not, however, enjoy the actual wearing of the shoes. I will hate it to be honest. 

After reading your thoughts, I'm now praying he doesn't ask me if I enjoyed wearing them because the honest answer will be no. I'll enjoy how rev'd up he's going to get and I'll enjoy the sex that will result from it. But I will hate the actual wearing of the shoes. 

ETA: In fact, my guy loves to give massages. I hate massages. I let him when he asks because he loves it so much. But it's for him, not me. The difference between me and your wife is that I don't get asked how much I enjoyed it when he's done. If he asks if I enjoyed the sex session, the answer is always yes, because giving me that massage rev's him up and so I enjoy the actual sex more than usual because he is worked up more than usual. I never tell him I don't like the actual massages. Why ruin it for him?

I guess my advice is that you stop asking your wife specifically if she enjoyed the things you're doing. She told you she enjoyed the sex that resulted from the massage. I'm guessing she enjoyed making you happy and getting ****ed by you. I'd call that a win my friend!!!

Have you ever asked her what things she'd like to incorporate into your sex life? If she came to you with an idea would that help you feel more connected? Instead of expecting her to like the things you've added to your sex life, tell her you need HER to come up with some ideas so you feel wanted and desired. She must have some things she's thought about. Tell her how important it is that to you that she get invested in making your sex life more about connecting and less about insert tab a into opening b. 

My only other thought is that we have no idea what she means by "willing." It can be a bored, monotone "sure, I'll do that if you really need it" or it could be an enthusiastic "yeah, I'm willing to give that a try!" or anything in between. Maybe by "willing" she means, she wants to make you happy and so she's willing to do all sorts of things to make that happen. I just think that a woman who has sex with you on a regular basis is connecting with you on some level even if you don't realize it.

Think of love languages. If your love language is touch but hers is time spent and you had a big disconnect because of it and went to marriage counseling and learned this, would it mean less if she started touching you more because she knew you needed it but not because she needed it? I would certainly hope not. In order to be fulfilled sexually, she needs good PIV sex. That's her sex language if you will. Yours is different...she appears to realize this so she does other things to make you have better sex. That's a pretty loving quality actually. It all falls apart because you pick apart her reasons for doing it. If you accepted that the fact that she does these things is the loving, connecting part, not her enjoyment of them you'd be a happier guy. Because women don't do extra **** in bed that they don't need and/or want for guys they don't feel an intimate connection with, they just don't.


----------



## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Does your wife literally say "I am willing" when you ask her to do something? That's an unexpected way of phrasing a response. I'm just trying to get a better picture of the situation. Also, you have a very detailed way of communicating. Are you an engineer of some kind? How emotional of a person are you?

One thing that sometimes fades in a long-term relationship is a true emotional connection. Think of how strong you felt about her in the beginning compared to now. At the beginning, you likely thought about her all the time, wanted to spend all your time with her, etc. Often that connection weakens over time and the couple becomes more like roommates doing shared parenting. If that's the case in your relationship, try to rebuild that emotional connection with her. When you see her after work, really listen to her and create an environment where she's happy to see you. Do what you can so you guys are like best friends who want to spend all your time together. While it may not actually make her want sex more, it will likely make her enjoy the sex more because she'll have a stronger emotional connection with you.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

notmyjamie said:


> @leftfield
> 
> I feel compelled to add something to my statement that you quoted above. My guy recently told me he'd love to see me in some really high heeled shoes. Normally I don't wear those. I just bought a pair. I'm willing to wear them for him because he will love it. I will enjoy that he loves it. I will, not, however, enjoy the actual wearing of the shoes. I will hate it to be honest.
> 
> ...


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

wilson said:


> Does your wife literally say "I am willing" when you ask her to do something? That's an unexpected way of phrasing a response. I'm just trying to get a better picture of the situation. Also, you have a very detailed way of communicating. Are you an engineer of some kind? How emotional of a person are you?
> 
> One thing that sometimes fades in a long-term relationship is a true emotional connection. Think of how strong you felt about her in the beginning compared to now. At the beginning, you likely thought about her all the time, wanted to spend all your time with her, etc. Often that connection weakens over time and the couple becomes more like roommates doing shared parenting. If that's the case in your relationship, try to rebuild that emotional connection with her. When you see her after work, really listen to her and create an environment where she's happy to see you. Do what you can so you guys are like best friends who want to spend all your time together. While it may not actually make her want sex more, it will likely make her enjoy the sex more because she'll have a stronger emotional connection with you.


Yes, she literally says "I am willing" when I suggest things. It is the way she says it, it's not what I would pick. When I specifically ask for something she just does it, with the least amount of effort possible. 

I am a scientist, so that is what you are seeing coming through my writing. I am less emotional than most people. I am more emotional than my wife.

We have actually maintained a very strong connection throughout our relationship. I have found the idea of letting our relationship slide does not suit me. So I have put in the effort to make sure our relationship stays very close. She would let it slide some, given the opportunity.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Throughout reading through the posts, and OP you've been pretty clear on what's important to you and that you're looking for ideas on what will work for you both, and allow the relationship to continue without a souring, if you will.

To work with what's available:

It appears to come down to is there a way to turn the negative feelings her responses of "I am willing" elicit in you into positive feelings you can have, when you hear the expected "I am willing" response?

It seems like you're looking for a way to turn this negative into a positive because despite trying multiple things, her response is always the same. Good for you.

And you're trying to forestall further relationship closeness erosion, realizing that if you aren't the one to actively try to head it off that the erosion will weaken other non sexual parts of the relationship. Perhaps even weakening it too much and the foundation will crumble. 

Maybe an active experiment that will bring new experiences and activities into the sexual mental and physical realms?

Such as since she's grown complacent into her view that her "willingness should be enough" for you why don't you stretch your requests until she reaches her own realization that "she isn't willing" to do this or that.

Some people think things will always be within certain boundaries until they realize things can exist beyond what they think.

And they have their own, self realized "aha moment".

Or something similar. 

You're trying to maintain your marriage. She is too, in her mind. You're being active. She wants to be inactive but compliant so you comply. 

Give her a script to follow re sexual encounters; when, what, where, what to wear, say, noises to make, etc. 

See where her limit is, until she realizes she's better off helping chart this course too, she'll stay just a passenger, when a copilot is desired

Or something similar. I dunno. The application of some preventive actions do seem required.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

leftfield said:


> OK a couple things I'd recommend trying:
> 
> How exactly do you think, I have ended up with the experiences of 'feeling like I just had a one night stand'? Yes, I can do this. No, I do not enjoy it. Yes, this is why I am currently avoiding intimacy with my wife. I do appreciate the gift my wife was willing to give. I am finding that I no longer desire it.


What you are saying here is even though you love your wife, are attracted to her, and she's willing to give you what you want, you don't desire it. Because she doesn't desire it. There is an element of good sex that is being selfish. You can be both giving and selfish. Does it make you feel bad when you just take what you want in bed?

A fun experiment for you to try, that is one of my go-to fun things: book a hotel room. Tell her to meet you there mid-day, wearing whatever it is that you want. Pretend you are having an affair, or it's a one night stand, or even that she's a prostitute. Whatever. The point is you are meeting for sex and only for sex without the overlay of the relationship.

It won't get you the emotional intimacy in the experience you are looking for, but it will take both of you on an adventure that is fun to plan and to talk about afterward... that can very much give you emotional intimacy with a tinge of sexuality. And it takes a lot of the emotional burden off when you're doing it, because this is sex for sex with a stranger (that is really your wife.)



> This is the crux of the whole thing. This is what she enjoys. I can do it for her and I am willing. I know this in and of itself does not do it for me. Now I can be the 'willing' partner.


Do you want her to feel badly because you're being used for penetrative sex? Do you feel like a male prostitute? Or do you want her just to enjoy it?



> Yes, It is about connecting with my partner. Seeing, knowing and causing their joy. Sharing myself and being known and knowing them. To put it as succinctly as possible.


I totally get that. What I was going for instead was why you want those sexual things. Let me give you a silly example from my life (paraphrasing):

"Wife, we're going to Vegas. I'm going to get you a very skimpy pink bikini in the sunshine."
"Husband, I'm a 40-something wife with kids. I'm not 20. Why do you want that?"

Which is a valid question. Sure, I like to see her in stuff like that, but why?

So I thought and I wrote and I drug stuff out of my memory. And, turns out that when I was in junior high there was a high school girl that had a skimpy pink bikini that I lusted after all one summer. She would lounge around our town outdoor pool and drive me absolutely mental. This led to me having the classic pink bikini poster in high school in the 80's of Heather Locklear or whatever. And has just kinda 'stuck' as a fantasy thing I like. 

But what am I really looking for with having my wife in a skimpy pink bikini in the sunshine? I want to be that stupid kid in grade 9 with a raging lust that I can barely contain. It's not about the bikini or the girl or the sunshine, it's about that raw teenage need-to-do-anything-to-bone-her feeling.

That's a stupid example, but it's also a real one that helped me make sense of this fantasy and allowed me to communicate it effectively. And 'own' it.



> She is not actively being a drag when we do things, usually. We got over that several years ago. Going through the motions means she is willing to do what I ask, like a robot or a doll. The point is without an emotional connection sexual intimacy losses all meaning to me and it already means nothing to her. So what are we really doing?


What are you really doing?

You're having sex with someone that is happily consenting to do so. Why is she consenting? Because she loves you.

That may not be a raging lust for you, but it also may be enough for you.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

leftfield said:


> Marduk,
> 
> My needs from my marriage relationship include an emotional connection through sexual intimacy. My wife is unable or unwilling to meet that need. She is willing to go through the motions that would allow for that connection, but she is not able to actually connect with me. I appreciate that my wife has been willing to put in as much effort as she has. I know that many women would not. It appears that her best efforts do not meet my needs. There is nothing wrong with that. I don't need her to try anymore.
> 
> On the other hand, I am able to meet her needs. I have done so, I am currently doing so and I plan to keep doing so. I do this willingly whether or not my own needs are being met.


My wife really, really likes shiny little expensive transparent rocks that mean nothing to me. She's not materialistic with most things, but her eyes light up when she gets gifted with these sparkly stones set in metal that she can wear.

I don't know why she likes them. I don't understand why she seems to really connect with me when I give them to her. She's confused why I'm confused about it. I don't feel more connected with her when she gets them, but it's very clear she does.

So I happily try to give them to her when I can, and I share her joy when she feels it for getting those shiny stones that are meaningless to me. I am willing. I can never give them all to her, but I would if I could, so we'll both have to be ok with me giving them to her when I can.

She wishes I wanted to give them to her as much as she liked getting them, and wished I understood and connected with her when I did. It's all jazz music to me, and doesn't make sense. But I love her so I do it.


----------



## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

leftfield said:


> I have gone (am going) through a similar experience. I also have a list of things I would like to do and I keep adding to it. I have been doing those things with my wife this fall. The experiences have gone good enough. One experience recently has changed my feelings about it. This experience was based around giving my wife a whole body massage. I thought it went great. At the end I asked what she thought and she said she really enjoyed it. I asked if she would want to do it again. She just sat there silent. After several minutes she told me she was willing to. Over the next few days I asked about several other experiences, again she confirmed that she enjoyed them all. Then I asked how she felt about them. Again the answer was silence. After that I confirmed that the only thing she is attached to is the sex (penetration). I have not been able to connect with her through sexual intimacy since.


 Your conclusions may not be correct. She seems to have a hard time admitting to what she wants. She told you she liked it. It is very likely that she does want to do it again, but is embarrassed about it for some reason. I think it is very likely that you are misunderstanding your wife and putting things on her that she is not thinking.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Can't seem to quote the original post but wanted to comment on your reply.


After reading your thoughts, I'm now praying he doesn't ask me if I enjoyed wearing them because the honest answer will be no. *I'll enjoy how rev'd up he's going to get and I'll enjoy the sex that will result from it.* But I will hate the actual wearing of the shoes. _This would be enough for me and I'm sure it will be for him._

Well, it seems to me you do have that. You've asked and she's told you she enjoys the sex. The sex and the quality of it is a result of adding on the extras for you. So if you're way more rev'd up because she wore something special for you, she enjoys the sex more. And she has told you she enjoys it. 



Have you ever asked her what things she'd like to incorporate into your sex life? 
Yes, I have asked many times. She has no answer.

That's not that unsual an answer. Many women either have no fantasies or just can't bring themselves to share them. They are embarrassed by them. 



She is connecting. Right now, I am not.

This is interesting. So you feel SHE feels a connection with you. You don't feel it back because she doesn't enjoy the same aspects of sex that you do. That's a shame because sex is about making both people happy. If you learned to just enjoy what you like and let her enjoy what she likes you might both be a lot happier. She could be posting on another board "my husband won't connect with me because I don't like the exact same stuff as him. I try and I try to give him what he wants to do but that's just not enough...unless I like exactly what he wants me to like it's ruined." You say your goal is to make her happy in regards to sex...you making her happy and her enjoying that is how you connect. Well, she gets happy and feels connected when you perform great PIV sex and you're missing it!!! So do that and make her happy and then be happy yourself. Take that other stuff for yourself because for as much as I think you say you're doing it for her, you're not, you're doing it for you. And she lets you because she loves you and wants you to be happy. And she's right...you do over think this stuff...she's working hard to make you happy.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I think @Cynthia and @notmyjamie are onto something here, @leftfield.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

notmyjamie said:


> Can't seem to quote the original post but wanted to comment on your reply.
> 
> 
> After reading your thoughts, I'm now praying he doesn't ask me if I enjoyed wearing them because the honest answer will be no. *I'll enjoy how rev'd up he's going to get and I'll enjoy the sex that will result from it.* But I will hate the actual wearing of the shoes. _This would be enough for me and I'm sure it will be for him._
> ...


I am not responding to most posts right now because I am just trying to take in peoples input. I do want to address what I have bolded. I am not sure that I have stated it like you have here, but fair enough. Pleasing my partner is an important part of it for me. Being pleased by my partner is also important. I don't think that I implied that I am only doing things to please her. Most of what we do is what I want and to please me. Having a partner that wants to please me is important to me. If I have given the impression that its all about making her happy, that's my bad.


----------



## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

leftfield said:


> Yes, she literally says "I am willing" when I suggest things. It is the way she says it, it's not what I would pick. When I specifically ask for something she just does it, with the least amount of effort possible.
> 
> I am a scientist, so that is what you are seeing coming through my writing. I am less emotional than most people. I am more emotional than my wife.


Can you give us a little more detail about your wife and her personality? For her to respond like that and to be less emotional than a not very emotional male scientist, it sounds like she's more unique than the average woman we might have in our heads when we picture your relationship.

Also, what about her life? Does she work, how's her relationship with the kids, does she have time to herself to relax, etc? Anything in her past which might be relevant for how she acts in your relationship?


----------



## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

It seems to me that you are way overthinking this. Your wife has told you she likes having sex with you and likes how you touch her, but you seem hung up on how focused she is on PIV. Really, it's okay to have a favorite part about the sexual experience without having the same favorite part as your spouse. It seems to me that your wife is happy with you and your sex life. You would feel better if you would accept that and enjoy. Don't expect her to ask or tell you what she wants. From what I read here, that is a common issue. Personally I have a motto that if you don't ask, you are not likely to get what you want, but if you ask for something you have a much higher chance of getting what you want. This is what I tell my family for life in general. But not everyone does this. A lot of people just wish and hope for something to happen to them. I'm more proactive about my life, but, from my 55 years of observation and reading here, I don't think that's how most people operate. Your wife seems to be in that number of not being proactive. Maybe it's working for her.

If my husband based his ideas about what I like and what I don't on my fantasy life, he would think I hated sex, because I don't really fantasize. I may think back on times we had together, but I don't make up scenarios in my mind. When we are together, I enjoy what is happening at the moment, not wishing we were doing something else.

Seriously, dude, I think you are making things up and think you are drawing logical conclusions when you aren't. I think you're in a negative mindset that is bringing you down and impacting your marriage in a very negative way.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@leftfield: I can sorta kinda relate to your situation, despite the fact that my wife and I have completely stopped having sex. But I think the reason we stopped is relevant to why you feel unfulfilled. And I want to give you a warning not to push to hard for what you think you want, because you might find yourself in a much worse place.

To me, sex is hardly at all about sensation. For me, sex rarely feels as good as masturbation (easy to explain - I have rarely had sex but I have frequently masturbated - so I am much more skilled at masturbation that at sex). Nevertheless, I was highly motivated to seek sex with my wife. Why? Because for me, sex was about validation. It wasn't about the sensation. It was about ego gratification. I felt powerful and successful at 2 points: when she consented, and when she had an orgasm (or faked one - I doubt she ever actually had an orgasm when with me).

Eventually, it became clear that she never really had an orgasm. And she wasn't consenting because she found me sexually attractive, she was consenting only to placate me. Once I realized that (and that took many more years / decades than it should have), I lost all interest in having sex with her. Because now sex holds no pleasure for me. Not because my wife doesn't love me. Not because she isn't truly consenting to sex with me. And not because it doesn't feel good. But because now the sex is only about my sensual pleasure and not about gratifying my ego. At which point, I would rather masturbate than have sex.

Which is a problem with ME. Not a problem with my wife. Not her fault because she can't or won't respond the way I wish she would. But because I can't accept that she is giving me 100% of what she has to give, without expecting anything in return (in the moment). While we do it, sex is all about me. All about satisfying my needs. And I can't handle that. My identity is so wrapped up in being a martyr that I cannot take what she freely offers. Which makes me one very messed up guy.

Don't be like me. Don't get so wrapped up in justifying your desire for sex based on how much you try to please your wife. Accept the truth that you want it for you. And that it is OK to want it for yourself. And that it is OK to take what your wife freely gives even if the giving isn't all that pleasurable for her. Because the look on your face afterward is satisfying to her. Don't rob her of that satisfaction. Don't pretend the sex was bad for you despite your orgasm because she didn't orgasm. Admit that the sex was good for you and be thankful she is willing to provide it despite the fact that it doesn't do much for her. THAT is the true measure of love and selfless devotion.

Because you are worth it. And if you don't believe you are worth it. If you believe you can only "earn" sex by making it good for her. Because why else should she want to have sex with you? Then you have self-esteem problems that you need to address before you even start to address your sex life with your wonderful wife.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> @leftfield: I can sorta kinda relate to your situation, despite the fact that my wife and I have completely stopped having sex. But I think the reason we stopped is relevant to why you feel unfulfilled. And I want to give you a warning not to push to hard for what you think you want, because you might find yourself in a much worse place.
> 
> To me, sex is hardly at all about sensation. For me, sex rarely feels as good as masturbation (easy to explain - I have rarely had sex but I have frequently masturbated - so I am much more skilled at masturbation that at sex). Nevertheless, I was highly motivated to seek sex with my wife. Why? Because for me, sex was about validation. It wasn't about the sensation. It was about ego gratification. I felt powerful and successful at 2 points: when she consented, and when she had an orgasm (or faked one - I doubt she ever actually had an orgasm when with me).
> 
> ...


I've allowed myself to get into a very bad place... a wife who hasn't desired sex and even said she has resented it... but in the end I could not get to where you are and stay married, because if I had no hope that my wife could understand sex is an "us" thing and not just "me", if she couldn't understand that we each have responsibilities to each other and that sex is one of them, I would not stay married. She (my wife) feels badly that she is the way she is, but she also understands that intimacy with her is an emotional bond through sex, not just physical, and that she's got to work at changing her view. She knows how close I came 1.5 years ago to leaving. 

I don't know. Maybe we're the same and I'm just in denial, but I think I have more to work with, I think my wife is coming around to realizing that rug sweeping problems will only cause bigger problems, not relieve her from what she doesn't like. 

Trust me, I've gone through massive guilt over the idea that sex with my wife has been just for me. That's been my life throughout our marriage. Why am I having her do something she doesn't (hopefully didn't) want to do. How selfish is that? But the upside? A It kept things in working order. B It kept the issue alive and allowed for the sexual equivalent of "The Purge" each year when we'd go on vacation, where she'd be at least willing without reservation (still a far cry from desire). C It kept my foot in the door. The line must be drawn here, this far, no farther.

I *may* end up being one of the lucky ones. I may come out the far end of this intact, with a better marriage, better intimacy with my wife (most importantly felt by her, not just me). And that, if it happens, will only be due to random circumstance that revealed why my wife has been plagued by guilt and depression all these years. 

I pray that you have a better outcome than what it appears you've settled into. For me, the combination of the discovery (of why the guilt and despression) coming on my 63rd birthday, while I was nearly bedridden with a fractured pelvis... everything seemed hugely magnified in importance. It was not something I could walk away from. It was a pivotal moment in time. Maybe you've not had that pivotal moment that says this, this is the hill you either win or die on.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

leftfield said:


> We have 4 kids from 15-8. I am not 'very unhappy', but I am not able to be myself.


I know it's very frustrating - I've been there. What are the chances that your wife will change? Probably zero. You are not very unhappy, but you say you can't be yourself. But marriage is compromise. You have to lose a little bit of yourself to accommodate your wife's wishes and desires. You are very unbalanced in the intimacy department and I see this an area where you will have to compromise if you want to keep your family together. You are where I was 10 years ago. My story doesn't have a happy ending but I was far more frustrated than you are.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

notmyjamie said:


> Yours is different...she appears to realize this so she does other things to make you have better sex. That's a pretty loving quality actually. It all falls apart because you pick apart her reasons for doing it. If you accepted that the fact that she does these things is the loving, connecting part, not her enjoyment of them you'd be a happier guy. Because women don't do extra **** in bed that they don't need and/or want for guys they don't feel an intimate connection with, they just don't.



This... ^^^


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

The comments here have started to wonder. 

Several people have stressed that I should find a way to be a happy were I am. I agree, that would be best. In one of my early comments I said that I am looking to find acceptance. My heart tells me I can't do it, as tears start to form in my eyes. Time will tell if I can manage this or not.

@notmyjamie, you are correct that I need to stop asking the questions I have been asking. I realize that I was doing it as a way to seek a positive interaction. It is not good. I need to change and be better. Thank you for helping see this.

@Ragnar Ragnasson, @wilson, @Casual Observer, @In Absentia, thank you for making comments that relate to the situation. I appreciate the the thoughts that each of you have shared in your posts.

@Marduk "What you are saying here is even though you love your wife, are attracted to her, and she's willing to give you what you want, you don't desire it. Because she doesn't desire it. There is an element of good sex that is being selfish. You can be both giving and selfish. Does it make you feel bad when you just take what you want in bed?"
I would only feel bad if I was forcing someone to do it. Being selfish in bed has little to no interest to me. If I felt connected to my partner, I would enjoy it. It all depend on the woman I am with. Girl power recently had a thread were she discussing how her partner had an effect on what she was and was not willing to do during sex. This is an example of how my partner affects what I am interested in.

"What are you really doing?
You're having sex with someone that is happily consenting to do so. Why is she consenting? Because she loves you.
That may not be a raging lust for you, but it also may be enough for you. "
I am not overly interested in sex. I am very interested in sexual intimacy. I picture it like a milk shake with whipping cream and cherry on top. Sex would be the equivalent to the cherry on top. I don't buy a milk shake for the cherry on top. Likewise, I do not instigate intimacy for the sex. The sex is just a bonus. Can I enjoy the cherry? yep. Will I be getting more or less milk shakes if they only consist of the cherry? Most definitely less. Would I be happy with a milk shake that has no cherry? yes, most of the time.

@Cynthia, "You would feel better if you would accept that and enjoy." See what I just posted to Marduk.

@Holdingontoit, thank you for your post. "But because now the sex is only about my sensual pleasure and not about gratifying my ego. At which point, I would rather masturbate than have sex." For me; if it is a choice between sex and masturbation, I would choose masturbation. If it is a choice between sex with intimacy or masturbation. I will choose sex with intimacy. For me, intimacy is more important than sex. As you said in your post. This is my problem. Something that I will need to work on.

Let me say thank you to each of you. You have helped me identify things that I need to work on and better myself. 

One interesting thing about having a very close relationship with your spouse is that you are able to read each other. My wife and I have a very hard time hiding things from one another. Thus, the storm clouds have gather over my marriage.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

So what I take from this is that your physical needs are being met because she will do whatever you want her to do physically, but you don’t FEEL a connection with her. 
Your happy is happy, and is satisfied by you. Your needs are technically being met, but your not feeling the connection. Which is why you compared it to being with a prostitute. 
Have you always felt this disconnection? Is it a mid life crisis thing?


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> So what I take from this is that your physical needs are being met because she will do whatever you want her to do physically, but you don’t FEEL a connection with her.
> Your happy is happy, and is satisfied by you. Your needs are technically being met, but your not feeling the connection. Which is why you compared it to being with a prostitute.
> Have you always felt this disconnection? Is it a mid life crisis thing?




Let me know if I’m totally off track here.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

leftfield said:


> The comments here have started to wonder.
> 
> Several people have stressed that I should find a way to be a happy were I am. I agree, that would be best. In one of my early comments I said that I am looking to find acceptance. My heart tells me I can't do it, as tears start to form in my eyes. Time will tell if I can manage this or not.
> 
> ...


We keep going round and round here, man.

A couple things that I'll throw out there as experiments.

1. stop having sex. Give the both of you, say a month to reboot the whole thing. Replace sex with emotional connection. Do everything except have sex. Date, make out, fool around, be teenagers. But no sex. See what happens. Take the focus off of sex, and take the burden off of it, too. Create space, because with space comes freedom and creativity.

2. Only make sex about sex for a little while. At the end of the day we humans put a lot of expectations on sex. There should be fireworks! Everyone should have O's every time! We should connect and bond and the earth should move! We should both look perfect and immediately know what to do and everything's fantastic. When in reality, sex can be none of those things. Sex can just be sex. Again, I'm trying to peel back the layers of expectation and heaviness here. Is sex ever just fun for the both of you? Do either of you laugh during sex? If not, maybe if you relieve the burdens and heaviness of sex, you'll both create space to add in things like emotional connection.

3. Have you ever tried tantric sex, that is specifically designed for emotional and spiritual connection, even if that means nobody has an orgasm?


----------



## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

leftfield said:


> Several people have stressed that I should find a way to be a happy were I am. I agree, that would be best. In one of my early comments I said that I am looking to find acceptance. My heart tells me I can't do it, as tears start to form in my eyes. Time will tell if I can manage this or not.


Your scientific mind may present some stumbling blocks as you deal with this situation. Speaking as someone who is a software engineer, sometimes it's easy to get really focused on a problem and coming up with a solution for that problem. It can make the problem seem worse than it actually is. You may feel unhappy because you can't solve the problem rather than the situation is really a problem that needs a solution. It sounds like there is some room for improvement, but your internal view of the situation may be much bleaker than it actually is.

One pattern that is common in these situations is that you may feel like you can't be happy in life unless the intimacy aspect is fixed. That is false. You should actively work to change that mindset. Find things you enjoy doing, do them, and allow yourself to enjoy doing them. Improving your mood in other areas of your life will give you a much better attitude when dealing with this issue.

Do you exercise at all? If you don't, I'm writing you a prescription for 6 weeks of exercise. High physical exertion can often greatly improve a person's mood. Find some sort of small group coached workout like boot camp, Orange Theory gym, or something like that. Find something where you are put through your paces for an hour and do it a few times a week. You'll feel better immediately because of the workout, and you'll feel more confident because you'll be proud of your new body.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Marduk said:


> We keep going round and round here, man.
> 
> A couple things that I'll throw out there as experiments.
> 
> ...



I think this is excellent advice!!!! I think a reboot would be a great idea. Maybe change up some of your expectations about what sex should be like between you both. 

I also think maybe showing your wife what I wrote (the post that started all this) and telling her that's more of what you're looking for, not just her being willing, but participating in making new things happen. For all you know, she thinks you want to run the whole show. You might be surprised at her reaction.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Girl_power said:


> So what I take from this is that your physical needs are being met because she will do whatever you want her to do physically, *but you don’t FEEL a connection with her.*
> Your happy is happy, and is satisfied by you. Your needs are technically being met,* but your not feeling the connection. Which is why you compared it to being with a prostitute. *
> Have you always felt this disconnection? Is it a mid life crisis thing?


The bolded parts are correct. The disconnect is new.

@Marduk:
1. stop having sex. Give the both of you, say a month to reboot the whole thing. Replace sex with emotional connection. Do everything except have sex. Date, make out, fool around, be teenagers. But no sex. See what happens. Take the focus off of sex, and take the burden off of it, too. Create space, because with space comes freedom and creativity.
Good idea. Luckily for us I have already started us on this plan. :grin2:

2. *Only make sex about sex for a little while.* At the end of the day we humans put a lot of expectations on sex. There should be fireworks! Everyone should have O's every time! We should connect and bond and the earth should move! We should both look perfect and immediately know what to do and everything's fantastic. When in reality, sex can be none of those things. *Sex can just be sex.* Again, I'm trying to peel back the layers of expectation and heaviness here. Is sex ever just fun for the both of you? Do either of you laugh during sex? If not, maybe if you relieve the burdens and heaviness of sex, you'll both create space to add in things like emotional connection.
Thank you for making this so clear. I now understand why my wife has always had so much less interest than I. 

3. Have you ever tried tantric sex, that is specifically designed for emotional and spiritual connection, even if that means nobody has an orgasm?
Nope. Sounds like something I'd probably like. Does not sound like something my wife would be interest in.

@wilson, Do you exercise at all? If you don't, I'm writing you a prescription for 6 weeks of exercise. High physical exertion can often greatly improve a person's mood. Find some sort of small group coached workout like boot camp, Orange Theory gym, or something like that. Find something where you are put through your paces for an hour and do it a few times a week. You'll feel better immediately because of the workout, and you'll feel more confident because you'll be proud of your new body. 
Apparently I'm depressed. You are about the 6th person who has commented on how down I am or how I need to increase happiness. Well, I better go do something about it.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I reread your post and I have some thoughts. At first I didn’t understand why her telling you “let me know when you want me to wear the lingerie” bothered you. And now I understand. It’s like when a wife has to tell her husband The obvious things around the house that need to be done like the dishes or taking out the trash. Do you want a partner not someone you have to tell what to do all the time. 

As far as the massage goes, your wife should say no I don’t like the massage or yes I like it and I want it. She seems to have no opinion. It’s like the lights are on but no one is home. Like you’re living with somebody whose not a real person.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Girl_power said:


> I reread your post and I have some thoughts. At first I didn’t understand why her telling you “let me know when you want me to wear the lingerie” bothered you. And now I understand. It’s like when a wife has to tell her husband The obvious things around the house that need to be done like the dishes or taking out the trash. Do you want a partner not someone you have to tell what to do all the time.
> 
> As far as the massage goes, your wife should say no I don’t like the massage or yes I like it and I want it. She seems to have no opinion. It’s like the lights are on but no one is home. *Like you’re living with somebody whose not a real person.*


You are absolutely on the right track here.

The bolded portion is particularly applicable. Last night we talked some. She indicated that she can't answer those questions because she is not being herself. Who exactly is she trying to be? Something, something, reference that thing and tie it back to nothing, drift this way, then drift back...... nothing comprehensible came from this. I finally said; 'just stop. Nothing you said makes any sense and I am getting frustrated hearing you contradict what you said just minutes before'. Her response; 'I know, sorry, I am messed up'.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

leftfield said:


> You are absolutely on the right track here.
> 
> The bolded portion is particularly applicable. Last night we talked some. She indicated that she can't answer those questions because she is not being herself. Who exactly is she trying to be? Something, something, reference that thing and tie it back to nothing, drift this way, then drift back...... nothing comprehensible came from this. I finally said; 'just stop. Nothing you said makes any sense and I am getting frustrated hearing you contradict what you said just minutes before'. Her response; 'I know, sorry, I am messed up'.




Oh boy. Has she always been this way and your just noticing it? It sounds like she is just a people pleaser and went through life trying to make others happy and not forming her own view and opinions and likes/dislikes.

I feel bad for her because she can’t really help it. It you don’t care about anything what can you do?


----------



## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

So what is OPs wife doing WRT to his love languages? I think the focus is all wrong here.... manipulating her to get what you want. Guess what? She has what she wants and there is no desire to go outside that. You CANNOT negotiate desire.... period. She can’t negotiate you into desiring to do more with your kids. You either desire to or not. In my marriage, my wife let it slip that for years she was having sex because she had to and then scrambled to save face. It is better now but don’t be surprised if you hear that in the future. Just because she says yes doesn’t mean she wants to.

1. Stop having sex and quit romancing and putting the pressure on. You’ll only get frustrated. Start loving yourself instead.

2. Read “No More Mr Nice Guy” as there are covert contacts all over this situation and you need to stop. You have a very one-sided relationship... quit handing it to her.

3. Hit the gym and work on yourself. Go to therapy and work out your stuff. I gave up trying to drag my wife to MC (she’s a therapist which is ironic) and worked on myself then she didn’t want to be left out and thought I might leave her so she started her own. Making progress but still some deep hidden baggage.

4. For me, what was a game changer is looking at the relationship if you took sex out of the equation and finding out that you undervalue yourself. You can talk compromise and being 50/50 but marriage is supposed to be a “value added”-thing for both of you. She got a breadwinner, a father for kids and helpmate. What did you get? Someone to take care of even if she divorced you down the road? Look at how much effort you’re putting into something SHE is responsible for... her sexual excitement (it’s not 100% your job).

This sounds harsh but I realized I put my wife on a pedestal and thought sex to be the ultimate validation and for what... a taker? At that point a switch flipped. Previously all I could think about was sex then changed to setting boundaries, doing things solo and improving myself. Why use a taker for validation? You hope she shows love and desire to validate yourself but doesn’t and now you’re frustrated and feel disrespected. 

Another thing left out when others tell you “that’s just how she is” and “you need to accept it.” Yes and Yes but you don’t need to find it to be an attractive quality. Partners get complacent and forget that other people are gladly willing to take your place... why do you think affairs happen?

I was scared to fight because she may not want sex. Now I’m not and I think subconsciously she respects that and has been more enthusiastic about sex. In a perfect world, she would own it and say she owes you better and get to the bottom of things (i.e. trash from previous relationships) because when kids are gone it’s you two. At that point (maybe even now) her love is different from yours. In the real world, the only thing you can do is own your stuff and go from there and hope she follows. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Girl_power said:


> I reread your post and I have some thoughts. At first I didn’t understand why her telling you “let me know when you want me to wear the lingerie” bothered you. And now I understand. It’s like when a wife has to tell her husband The obvious things around the house that need to be done like the dishes or taking out the trash. Do you want a partner not someone you have to tell what to do all the time.
> 
> As far as the massage goes, your wife should say no I don’t like the massage or yes I like it and I want it. She seems to have no opinion. It’s like the lights are on but no one is home. Like you’re living with somebody whose not a real person.





leftfield said:


> You are absolutely on the right track here.
> 
> The bolded portion is particularly applicable. Last night we talked some. She indicated that she can't answer those questions because she is not being herself. Who exactly is she trying to be? Something, something, reference that thing and tie it back to nothing, drift this way, then drift back...... nothing comprehensible came from this. I finally said; 'just stop. Nothing you said makes any sense and I am getting frustrated hearing you contradict what you said just minutes before'. Her response; 'I know, sorry, I am messed up'.




OP, it sounds like the famous scene from that Jennifer Aniston movie is what you're describing. It's not so much that you want her to do the dishes, but that you want her to _want_ to do the dishes? I get that. But is your wife someone who can actually _want to want to do the dishes _(or loving, connected, sex in this case)?

You mentioned in your opening post on this thread that the two of you are in a Dom/sub relationship. But it also sounded like that's a kind of nebulous and half hearted arrangement. Is it possible that "let me know when you want me to do X" or "I am willing" types of comments are part and parcel of that Dom/sub dynamic? A dynamic that she's taking more seriously than you seem to be. Might she actually _be_ a sub? One who _needs_ you to be a Dom?

Another thought I've had while reading this thread is to wonder if your wife might be on the spectrum. I can generally spot a science/math/engineer guy by his writing or speech patterns. Y'all tend to be wired up to be exceptionally analytical. And, yet, you describe your wife as even less emotionally connected than yourself. Is there anything to indicate that very high functioning Autism (Aspergers) might be an issue here?


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

aaarghdub said:


> So what is OPs wife doing WRT to his love languages? I think the focus is all wrong here.... manipulating her to get what you want. Guess what? She has what she wants and there is no desire to go outside that. You CANNOT negotiate desire.... period. She can’t negotiate you into desiring to do more with your kids. You either desire to or not. In my marriage, my wife let it slip that for years she was having sex because she had to and then scrambled to save face. It is better now but don’t be surprised if you hear that in the future. Just because she says yes doesn’t mean she wants to.
> 
> 1. Stop having sex and quit romancing and putting the pressure on. You’ll only get frustrated. Start loving yourself instead.
> 
> ...




I’m not trying to speak for the OP but I think he is being mis understood because he is not trying to get her the do what he wants. She already does what he wants. 

He is having a hard time feeling a connection with her because she isn’t her own person. She doesn’t have any likes or dislikes. And anyone who loves anyone knows they they get enjoyment out of making the other person happy, and knowing them. There is nothing to her except whatever he wants to do. He wants more from her. Meaning, I hate getting massages honey, but I love it when you... x,y,z. Also if she knows what he likes, then she should do it spontaneously to make him happy. Here’s an example, she knows he likes lingerie. So go out buy some new lingerie and surprise him wearing it one day. Don’t be a robotic and say... tell me when to wear it. 

I get what the OP is getting at now. There is not much too her. There is no effort because she doesn’t seem to understand or care or have motivation. She is just happy and content and go with the flow TOO much that she lost who she even is.

It made me sad when he said that it’s like a dom/sub relationship just because that’s how low effort she is.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Girl_power said:


> I’m not trying to speak for the OP but I think he is being mis understood because he is not trying to get her the do what he wants. She already does what he wants.
> 
> He is having a hard time feeling a connection with her because she isn’t her own person. She doesn’t have any likes or dislikes. And anyone who loves anyone knows they they get enjoyment out of making the other person happy, and knowing them. There is nothing to her except whatever he wants to do. He wants more from her. Meaning, I hate getting massages honey, but I love it when you... x,y,z. Also if she knows what he likes, then she should do it spontaneously to make him happy. Here’s an example, she knows he likes lingerie. So go out buy some new lingerie and surprise him wearing it one day. Don’t be a robotic and say... tell me when to wear it.
> 
> ...


This is spot on.


----------



## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> I get what the OP is getting at now. There is not much too her. There is no effort because she doesn’t seem to understand or care or have motivation. She is just happy and content and go with the flow TOO much that she lost who she even is.
> 
> It made me sad when he said that it’s like a dom/sub relationship just because that’s how low effort she is.


 @Girl_power... great analysis as always. My wife has likes and dislikes but hates to talk about them. Says sex talk is repulsive... but likes sex.  IDK



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

leftfield said:


> Last night we talked some. She indicated that she can't answer those questions because she is not being herself. Who exactly is she trying to be? Something, something, reference that thing and tie it back to nothing, drift this way, then drift back...... nothing comprehensible came from this. I finally said; 'just stop. Nothing you said makes any sense and I am getting frustrated hearing you contradict what you said just minutes before'. Her response; 'I know, sorry, I am messed up'.



She doesn't want to tell you what you don't want to hear: the truth. I'm sure she is as frustrated as you are.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

In Absentia said:


> She doesn't want to tell you what you don't want to hear: the truth. I'm sure she is as frustrated as you are.



This might be our problem. Because, what I want to hear is the 'truth'. I can handle the truth. Its everything else I have a problem with. If you are on the right track with this then this would be a more accurate statement: _She fears the consequences of telling you what you want to hear: the truth._


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Rowan said:


> OP, it sounds like the famous scene from that Jennifer Aniston movie is what you're describing. It's not so much that you want her to do the dishes, but that you want her to _want_ to do the dishes? I get that. But is your wife someone who can actually _want to want to do the dishes _(or loving, connected, sex in this case)?
> I have indicated in several posts that it is doubtful. All indications are that we're incompatible.
> 
> You mentioned in your opening post on this thread that the two of you are in a Dom/sub relationship. But it also sounded like that's a kind of nebulous and half hearted arrangement. Is it possible that "let me know when you want me to do X" or "I am willing" types of comments are part and parcel of that Dom/sub dynamic? A dynamic that she's taking more seriously than you seem to be. Might she actually _be_ a sub? One who _needs_ you to be a Dom?
> ...


I have never had a reason to think she is on the spectrum. But it is a possibility.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

leftfield said:


> This might be our problem. Because, what I want to hear is the 'truth'. I can handle the truth. Its everything else I have a problem with. If you are on the right track with this then this would be a more accurate statement: _She fears the consequences of telling you what you want to hear: the truth._



I think it's more that she doesn't have a solution and she is frustrated too... she can't please you and, yes, probably fearing the consequences because you won't like truth: that she can't do anything about it. This what my wife told me after i gave her an ultimatum and we were in a very similar situation. At the end, she faked it. Is this what you want?


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Girl_power said:


> I’m not trying to speak for the OP but I think he is being mis understood because he is not trying to get her the do what he wants. She already does what he wants.
> 
> He is having a hard time feeling a connection with her because she isn’t her own person. She doesn’t have any likes or dislikes. And anyone who loves anyone knows they they get enjoyment out of making the other person happy, and knowing them. There is nothing to her except whatever he wants to do. He wants more from her. Meaning, I hate getting massages honey, but I love it when you... x,y,z. Also if she knows what he likes, then she should do it spontaneously to make him happy. Here’s an example, she knows he likes lingerie. So go out buy some new lingerie and surprise him wearing it one day. Don’t be a robotic and say... tell me when to wear it.
> 
> ...


Could be.

You know what also fits the data provided? She just likes good old penetrative sex, and he keeps asking for other things. She might not want to say to him "listen husband, I know you think sex is this big emotional connectivity thing, but I just want you to take me to bone town."

There could be a whole Madonna/***** thing going on here. Or she could be depressed. Or have sexual trauma in her past. Or just LD. All kinds of things.

He, too, strikes me as remarkably passive in these conversations regarding sex. Could be wrong though.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Girl_power said:


> Oh boy. Has she always been this way and your just noticing it? It sounds like she is just a people pleaser and went through life trying to make others happy and not forming her own view and opinions and likes/dislikes.
> I have never had reason to think of her as a people pleaser. She is conflict avoident (I used to be too), indecisive and relatively passive (she has gotten better in recent years). She most definitely has likes and dislikes.
> 
> I feel bad for her because she can’t really help it. It you don’t care about anything what can you do?


She cares about things and puts effort into them.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Marduk said:


> Could be.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think that the OP is just working through the problem because he didn’t exactly know what it is, all he knows is that he is feeling a disconnect and he doesn’t know why. (This is the reason I come in these forums, to work through my problems with others input). 

Yea maybe she just likes sex. No foreplay, no kissing, no touching. I admit that I wouldn’t be able to connect emotionally to someone who just likes penetration. 
I agree I think that she could be depressed or have super low confidence. Maybe the OP is too critical of her. Who knows. All I know is that I feel super empowered and confident when I can rock my significant others world. It makes me WANT to rock his world. But if it’s not good enough or met with criticism that will shut me down real fast and give up putting myself out there.

I think there are so many reasons for why she is this way. For starters we need to know if she was always like this or if this is semi new.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

leftfield said:


> She cares about things and puts effort into them.




What does she put effort into?


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

In Absentia said:


> I think it's more that she doesn't have a solution and she is frustrated too... she can't please you and, yes, probably fearing the consequences because you won't like truth: that she can't do anything about it. This what my wife told me after i gave her an ultimatum and we were in a very similar situation. At the end, she faked it. Is this what you want?


There is good possibility I have been living it for the last 8 years.

I like truth, there is no truth that she can tell me that I will not like. This: _"you won't like truth"_ is not a possibility. She may not like the truth. If so that is her issue.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

leftfield said:


> There is good possibility I have been living it for the last 8 years.
> 
> I like truth, there is no truth that she can tell me that I will not like. This: _"you won't like truth"_ is not a possibility. She may not like the truth. If so that is her issue.


She may not even be able to admit it to herself, nonetheless you.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Marduk said:


> Could be.
> 
> You know what also fits the data provided? She just likes good old penetrative sex, and he keeps asking for other things. She might not want to say to him "listen husband, I know you think sex is this big emotional connectivity thing, but I just want you to take me to bone town."
> 
> ...


You are correct the data does make this a possibility. She has said (in the last 2 days) that she is not OK, with me screwing her and having no connection to her. 

I can be passive and I can be aggressive and get things done. I try and do what the situation calls for. Right now I am feeling things out and gathering information.

@aaarghdub, your post was mostly off base, but you did share some very good insights.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

leftfield said:


> You are correct the data does make this a possibility. She has said (in the last 2 days) that she is not OK, with me screwing her and having no connection to her.


What if she's not ok with her own sexuality? It's sometimes very hard for women to come to grips with it given all that society puts on them about it.




> I can be passive and I can be aggressive and get things done. I try and do what the situation calls for. Right now I am feeling things out and gathering information.


This wasn't a slight. It was based on the following:

1. you're kinda 'meh' about needing to tackle this issue (it's why I asked you in the beginning about how badly it bothered you)
2. when she says nothing, or doesn't engage, or whatever... the conversation seems to stop there. I'm not saying to force it, but I wouldn't drop it, either, I guess.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Girl_power said:


> What does she put effort into?


Reading, Gardening, this or that craft project she has discovered. To sum it up, she puts effort into herself (she is admittedly selfish).


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Marduk said:


> What if she's not ok with her own sexuality? It's sometimes very hard for women to come to grips with it given all that society puts on them about it.


This is a possibility. I have tried to explore it to the best of my abilities with her. From what I can tell, she is OK with her own sexuality. My description of her sexuality would be; "she is very vanilla, about once a week she wants to enjoy it. She is completely focused on getting it on and getting it done".

Specifically answering your question of what if? She would need to decide if this is true or not and if she wants to figure it out with or without professional help.

What if she didn't do any of that? It would not be good for our relationship.






Marduk said:


> This wasn't a slight. It was based on the following:
> 
> 1. you're kinda 'meh' about needing to tackle this issue (it's why I asked you in the beginning about how badly it bothered you)
> 2. when she says nothing, or doesn't engage, or whatever... the conversation seems to stop there. I'm not saying to force it, but I wouldn't drop it, either, I guess.


1. I am 'meh' because I need more information. When the time for action arrives, I will be ready. 
2. The conversations do not stop there. I have simply posted the things associated with my current feelings.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

leftfield said:


> Reading, Gardening, this or that craft project she has discovered. To sum it up, she puts effort into herself (she is admittedly selfish).


Good sex also is a selfish act. Also giving. But when you’re getting, you need to be accepting of being selfish with pleasure. 

This is actually a good place to start maybe.


----------



## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

I am almost in the same boat as you but for a longer time. 

When you do have sex with her is she participating and responding or does she just lay there and let you do everything. By participating I mean is she touching you, kissing you, holding onto to you etc. or is it literally starfish sex. If she is only into PIV but likes it in different positions that is one issue, but if she is only into non participatory missionary PIV then you have a bigger issue in my opinion.

I too have lost all emotional connection with my wife due to her lack of interest in a loving passionate sexual relationship.

I have completely stopped having sex as I didn't like feeling like I had just violated her. The unintended consequence is that our emotional connection is nearly dead. This will happen to you as well if she won't respond to your feelings and need for that emotional/sexual connection.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Girl_power said:


> I think there are so many reasons for why she is this way. For starters we need to know if she was always like this or if this is semi new.


deleted


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

If I were to ask your wife how her second life is what would she say? I’m curious her perspective on your sex life.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

I don't know what's next in your adventure, but it has been something of an adventure for you and, to a large extent, a successful adventure. It's tempting to look at all those years without getting to the positive feedback you need, and thinking it will never happen because it hasn't happened yet. I don't think you should look at it that way. I think you've done really well so far, lots of successes, and this is just the next thing on the plate. I think you'll get there. It's going to probably take MC and if you haven't already done so, the 5 Love Languages book could make a difference.

Pat yourself on the back and keep moving forward!


----------



## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Could it be that your are not connecting with your wife because you don't like her style or are bored with her, but you don't want to admit that, so you are blaming this on something being wrong with her?

Edit to add: This is not an accusation. This is a genuine question that you might ponder. I just want to make sure you don't think I'm making accusations. That isn't my point. There are many ways to approach this situation that you may not have considered, which I think is why you are here.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Girl_power said:


> If I were to ask your wife how her second life is what would she say? I’m curious her perspective on your sex life.


From what she has said; she is happy with it (this is never expressed without my asking about it). She always expresses nervousness about my happiness. I guess she is always waiting for the next rough patch (there would be a lot fewer rough patches is she would try. It baffles me, that she has not learned this).

@Casual Observer, we have gone over the 5 love languages already. Twice actually.

@Cynthia, I'm not trying to blame my wife or even imply that something is wrong with her. She is an individual person with her own behaviors, wants, needs and desires. Hopefully, the two of us can find a mutually satisfying relationship together. 

When it comes to our sex life the two of us have been on a bumpy road. I have found it to be a good learning experience, I feel like I know her better having gone through this. I have even found piece with the bumpy parts (I used to have a lot of resentment). During most of the process I was so focused on exploring something new or overcoming obstacles that I never sat down and pondered 'where am I going?'.

In the last year or so that has changed and I paused and asked 'Where am I going?', 'Why am I going there?'. I also asked 'who am I?', 'what do I want from my sexuality?' (These are questions @Marduk would suggest I ask myself). Then I started to answer the questions and trim away the excess. Some of the pertinent things are: I have a great desire for sex and for sexual intimacy (I made some posts yesterday that were emotionally influenced and do not accurately express this). As a man my sexual peak was in my early 20's (before I even got married) and it is all down hill from there. Sexual intimacy does not have any peak age and can keep going strong after the ability for sex has waned. I realized the as some wrinkly old man in my 80's, I could still lovingly caress my wives wrinkly and saggy chest long after their best buy date. We can still share those things and have that sexual connection if we want to. Well, I know that I want that. I have realized that I am still young enough to enjoy both sex and sexual intimacy. That is what I desire. That is who I am. If my wife does not like who I am, that is fine. That is her choice.

Another pertinent thing that I know about myself: *I don't want the load that I have carried all these years. I'm not interested in doing the work for both of us anymore. * I want a partner who I can share with. (I realize that as long as I am in this marriage there is a good chance that I will always have this load. But I can still hope.)

You asked: "Could it be that your are not connecting with your wife because you don't like her style or are bored with her"? Its possible. I have tried to explain myself, so draw your own conclusions.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Always Learning said:


> I am almost in the same boat as you but for a longer time.
> 
> When you do have sex with her is she participating and responding or does she just lay there and let you do everything. By participating I mean is she touching you, kissing you, holding onto to you etc. or is it literally starfish sex. If she is only into PIV but likes it in different positions that is one issue, but if she is only into non participatory missionary PIV then you have a bigger issue in my opinion.
> 
> ...


This is one future I don't think I could accept.

Sorry, I did not finish responding to you yesterday. My wife is always into sex, I have never had star fish sex. The sex was fine, but there has to be someone there to have an emotional connection with. 

You felt like you were violating your wife. In my situation it feels like using living toy. Use it, then send it home.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Always Learning said:


> I am almost in the same boat as you but for a longer time.
> 
> When you do have sex with her is she participating and responding or does she just lay there and let you do everything. By participating I mean is she touching you, kissing you, holding onto to you etc. or is it literally starfish sex. If she is only into PIV but likes it in different positions that is one issue, but if she is only into non participatory missionary PIV then you have a bigger issue in my opinion.
> 
> ...


I have real trouble with the bolded part. Life is all about not having unintended consequences. There's nothing about lack of connection or lack of sex in general that cannot be anticipated to have certain consequences. The earlier those consequences are understood and laid out, the better. Sometimes I feel like there needs to be flashing signs that tell people there will be consequences from a failing sex life; don't pretend otherwise!

In marriage, most of us signed up for a relationship. Not two separate lives under one roof. Not an FWB scenario, for as long as you're friends. A relationship is dynamic and requires each party to adapt at times to the needs of the other, in order to keep a balance that serves their own needs. 

Our partners sometimes have spent years not learning how we feel. It almost has to be an active endeavor, because if you're around someone for a while, you pick up on things without trying. So for a partner to be surprised by unintended consequences implies a deliberate attempt to not know how the other feels (or block it out) or needs.


----------



## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

Casual Observer said:


> I have real trouble with the bolded part. Life is all about not having unintended consequences. There's nothing about lack of connection or lack of sex in general that cannot be anticipated to have certain consequences. The earlier those consequences are understood and laid out, the better. Sometimes I feel like there needs to be flashing signs that tell people there will be consequences from a failing sex life; don't pretend otherwise!
> 
> In marriage, most of us signed up for a relationship. Not two separate lives under one roof. Not an FWB scenario, for as long as you're friends. A relationship is dynamic and requires each party to adapt at times to the needs of the other, in order to keep a balance that serves their own needs.
> 
> Our partners sometimes have spent years not learning how we feel. It almost has to be an active endeavor, because if you're around someone for a while, you pick up on things without trying. So for a partner to be surprised by unintended consequences implies a deliberate attempt to not know how the other feels (or block it out) or needs.


I completely agree with you. The unitended consequence is on her part, she does not understand that I get my emotional needs through ohysical sexual contact. She thinks men want sex and will say and do anything to get it, including telling her I need it to feel connected. She thinks just laying on the bed not participateing ought to be good enough. Now this was not always the case, we had a long dating period before marriage and then children where she was active and often the initiator of sex. 

She seems confused that after I stopped initiating sex because it was so awful that our connection is dwindling, I really don't care if I meet her needs anymore. I have stopped doing a lot of small things that I did reflexivly to meet her needs. I didn't actually intend to stop them it just happened on it's own.

I predict this is the path that the OP will follow if he stops having sex with his wife. I don't think his wife will ever catch on that she can't be a bystander in the relationship.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Always Learning said:


> I completely agree with you. The unitended consequence is on her part, she does not understand that I get my emotional needs through ohysical sexual contact. She thinks men want sex and will say and do anything to get it, including telling her I need it to feel connected. She thinks just laying on the bed not participateing ought to be good enough. Now this was not always the case, we had a long dating period before marriage and then children where she was active and often the initiator of sex.
> 
> She seems confused that after I stopped initiating sex because it was so awful that our connection is dwindling, I really don't care if I meet her needs anymore. I have stopped doing a lot of small things that I did reflexivly to meet her needs. I didn't actually intend to stop them it just happened on it's own.
> 
> I predict this is the path that the OP will follow if he stops having sex with his wife. I don't think his wife will ever catch on that she can't be a bystander in the relationship.


It seems to be a human trait that none of us can learn something until we decide that we want to learn it. It sounds like you tried to teach your wife what your needs were, but she refused to learn. She decided that she already had you figured out and nothing you said made it through her preconceived notions. 

I would have grown tired of star fish sex really quickly, luckily I have never experienced it. I do consider our recent sex to be the emotional equivalent of it. I'm not interested in it.

I feel horrible for what you have gone through. The path you describe is one possible destination of my marriage. Knowing myself, I think I would get out long before I reached the point you are at. I just could not go through the motions of marriage like that.

My wife might catch on. Last night she told me that she is her own worst enemy and indicated that she is thinking about getting professional help. We'll see if she ever picks the phone up.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

leftfield said:


> My wife might catch on. Last night she told me that she is her own worst enemy and indicated that she is thinking about getting professional help. We'll see if she ever picks the phone up.


I was where you are... actually, worse, because we had sex once a month... sex was good, though. But it wasn't enough for me. I wanted more, I wanted the connection. When we nearly divorced over this, my wife promised to seek professional help, but she never did. She decided to fake it twice a month until the kids were out of the house... we completely lost the connection. And now we have lost our marriage.


----------



## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

There was a post where you described your relationship in a lot of detail. It looks like it was deleted, but from what I remember it didn't sound like you guys really ever had a great sexual connection. It sounded like there was a period where it was okay, but that was after a lot of work. That is different than most couples. In the typical case, the couple has great sex at the beginning and is able to use that as a reference for what they want to restore in their relationship. If at one point there was a strong sexual connection, it should theoretically be possible to reignite that flame. But if it wasn't there in the first place, there's no guarantee that it can be developed. For most people, being sexual is not a choice that they make. It's something that they desire and they look to their partner to fulfill that. But if that aspect isn't there in your wife, you'll need to be realistic about how much can be accomplished and what success will look like.


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

@Marduk, Thank you for all of your posts. I have been reviewing this thread and it is clear that you have more insight into what I am going through than I do. I needed (or still need) a paradigm change, to clearly see what is going on. 

This quote from you is my problems simplified down to one sentence. "Similarly if you're wanting a more sexually expressive/connective person, and she just won't do it, then it's also choice time."

This is what I want, I can even go back into my teen and pre-teen years to see where this comes from. (Thank you again for stressing that I explore where my desires comes from).

Following the previous quote you said this (see post #17): "But I think you may find that what you're seeking may be different things at different times, and if you're like me it might take quite a bit of introspection to figure out what it is that you actually want, and why. I can go into what I did there if it's of interest."
I would like to hear more about your experience. I think it would be helpful to me. 

Maybe you have already gone into it. In post #27 you shared this:


Marduk said:


> "I felt the same way at times. I learned to get over it by deeply - and I mean very deeply - accepting my sexuality. I took a long time, like about a year, and I thought and wrote about my own sexuality. I detailed out what I wanted to get from my sexuality, and why. Experiences I wanted to have, experiences that I had that I didn't want, or things I wanted again or more. I went back through my own history and even childhood and uncovered things about sexual triggers I have, and why they are there. And then I just kind of sat back and said to myself 'well, there I am. That's who I am and what I want and why." And then I just went for it.
> 
> I knew what I wanted because I now had a laundry list. I knew why I wanted those things, so I had an answer if my wife ever asked "you want what? why would you want that?" So she could get to know me better."


Is this the experience you had (referred to)?


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

I am going to post this, just because this thread might be helpful to someone else at some point.

My wife and I have had productive conversations about this topic. My wife is beginning to better understand herself (I think counseling could help here) and hopefully will be able to express that to me.

As a typical 'nice guy' there are perspectives of sex I have difficulty wrapping my head around. As @Marduk indicated in several posts; good sex includes selfishness. My understanding of that has changed in the last 5 days and probably still needs more changing. It appears that this could lead to even better experiences between my wife and I. I have to accept that I was holding myself back. Simply because I could not see other possibilities.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

leftfield said:


> @Marduk, Thank you for all of your posts. I have been reviewing this thread and it is clear that you have more insight into what I am going through than I do. I needed (or still need) a paradigm change, to clearly see what is going on.
> 
> This quote from you is my problems simplified down to one sentence. "Similarly if you're wanting a more sexually expressive/connective person, and she just won't do it, then it's also choice time."
> 
> ...


Yup. Specifically, what I did was to first just blast out what I wanted from my own sex life. Experiences, fantasies, whatever. Just got it all out there.

And then, I sat back and did a bit of a "huh" to that because it was a mix of sophomoric stuff, weird stuff, and then just feeling stuff. Some of *what* I wanted was super clear, but not *why.* Some was the opposite - why I wanted something but not what specifically I wanted to happen. And then there was some other stuff that I thought was sexy, but never wanted to do. And on and on.

So then I just kind of free-form stream of consciousness wrote about each one. I'd take a month, say, and try to figure something out. And some stuff that shook out was quite interesting for me. And also enabled me to be more clear, more forthright, and also more settled in what I wanted and why. 

And it astonished me how much of it actually went back to my sexual formative years.


----------

