# What is love



## ManDup (Apr 22, 2011)

When we ask questions like, "does she still love me?" or "do I still love her?" we have to ask ourselves, what the heck are we talking about, anyway? I'm not particularly religious, but the bible does have a really good and old working definition of this word: 
1 Corinthians 13
" 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
"

Now I'm sure everyone has heard these words in a wedding ceremony at some point, but did you ever stop to think what they really mean? The question you have to ask is, does the feeling I have resemble this description? Is what my spouse doing indicative of stemming from this source? If she lied to me "only to save my feelings" does that fit? I'm open to hearing other working definitions of love that fit both you and your spouse.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I know what my type of love for my wife was. It was the romantic type, Eros and Cupid from Greek Mythology. Arrows, knight in shining armour stuff. Lasted 42 years, very very deep. Sometimes very blind, mostly joyful and happy and very rewarding. Left me almost at the end as quick as it entered me at the beginning. It did take a lot to kill it off though.

Bob


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

yep and that would be fine if both people were committed to loving like that.


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## ManDup (Apr 22, 2011)

Syrum said:


> yep and that would be fine if both people were committed to loving like that.


That's exactly my point. Maybe if your wife is not treating you like this, maybe if they're not even treating their OM like this (because they are sneaking around, not out in the truth), maybe what they are doing really has nothing to do with love. And who needs that? 

Maybe the abstract feeling that YOU have isn't love either. Maybe it's some kind of nostalgia for how things used to be, or maybe it's some kind of emotional dependency rather than love.

I'm just hoping to expand the emotional vocabulary that men have, so that they can recognize different emotions when they see them. Again I am open to other definitions and discussions about when something is actually love and when it is something else.


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## ManDup (Apr 22, 2011)

AFEH said:


> I know what my type of love for my wife was. It was the romantic type, Eros and Cupid from Greek Mythology. Arrows, knight in shining armour stuff. Lasted 42 years, very very deep. Sometimes very blind, mostly joyful and happy and very rewarding. Left me almost at the end as quick as it entered me at the beginning. It did take a lot to kill it off though.
> 
> Bob


I wonder what would have happened if she had died instead. That may have made it even harder to let go. Did you love her, and the actual person that was there, and the actual behaviors, or some abstract idealized version of her, that behaved the way you wanted in your mind? 

Also, in my experience, when people stay married, at least one of them intends to get back together. The other may be involved in some kind of exploitation of the situation, such as insurance or whatever. In any event, when the getting back together eventually doesn't happen, there is pain all over again.


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## ManDup (Apr 22, 2011)

Answerman said:


> My definition came to me when I looked at her one day and realized that she is the one who could never be replaced by anyone in the world. No one else will ever fit me as close as she does.


That reminds me of this Tim Minchin video.
YouTube - Tim Minchin - If I Didn't Have You


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Answerman said:


> My definition came to me when I looked at her one day and realized that she is the one who could never be replaced by anyone in the world. No one else will ever fit me as close as she does.


What a beautiful thing to say!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

ManDup said:


> I wonder what would have happened if she had died instead. That may have made it even harder to let go. Did you love her, and the actual person that was there, and the actual behaviors, or some abstract idealized version of her, that behaved the way you wanted in your mind?
> 
> Also, in my experience, when people stay married, at least one of them intends to get back together. The other may be involved in some kind of exploitation of the situation, such as insurance or whatever. In any event, when the getting back together eventually doesn't happen, there is pain all over again.


She very much died to me in a way. That’s why my grieving was very tough. For me it was definitely over as though she had died and I’d never see her again. It got to the point where she most definitely wasn’t the woman I married. Life and time changes people. I was going to write about that. One of the biggest changes comes about with people who hold onto grudges. The resentment gets in the way of love. In the end it can actually kill love. It did mine.

I think in some ways I did idealise her, put her on a very big pedestal. The waking up and subsequence crash was quite sudden and profound. I can say honestly that I have absolutely no regrets.

Bob


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

AFEH said:


> She very much died to me in a way. That’s why my grieving was very tough. For me it was definitely over as though she had died and I’d never see her again. It got to the point where she most definitely wasn’t the woman I married. Life and time changes people. I was going to write about that. One of the biggest changes comes about with people who hold onto grudges. The resentment gets in the way of love. In the end it can actually kill love. It did mine.
> 
> I think in some ways I did idealise her, put her on a very big pedestal. The waking up and subsequence crash was quite sudden and profound. I can say honestly that I have absolutely no regrets.
> 
> Bob



I really do think you still love her. You still talk about her with such affection and admiration. I rarely see you post alot of negatives about her. I admire that. If I am off base here, just tell me to ****** off. 
I see alot of men here talk about their relationship is dead but then post with such love it gives me pause. It makes me wonder if the love is really dead or if it hurts less to harden their hearts.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Webster's, by definition, defines the word love as:

- A deep and passionate feeling or affection for another.

Interestingly enough, it also equates the word love with passion and sex.

I find that people get very confused with the difference between love and lust. In the early stages of a relationship - they are all jumbled together - that's when sex is good and frequent, they can do no wrong, red flags get ignored, etc., all because the lust part of the relationship is in full force and leading the love part.

When that fades and you are left with love - you may find that the lust was what kept you together - when it fades and the love is not strong enough, then that's when all the little things your partner does becomes irritating, you lose sexual attraction and the relationship becomes mundane.

That's why I think people shouldn't marry until mid or late 20s - that's when the hormones start to wan and they can think clearly about whether they are truly in love or experiencing lust which makes them believe they are in love.

BIG difference and younger people are not mature enough to recognize it.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I really do think you still love her. You still talk about her with such affection and admiration. I rarely see you post alot of negatives about her. I admire that. If I am off base here, just tell me to ****** off.
> I see alot of men here talk about their relationship is dead but then post with such love it gives me pause. It makes me wonder if the love is really dead or if it hurts less to harden their hearts.


I’m still very much in love with the memory of her. Loving who she became brought me too much pain so I decided for the first time my love was a choice and chose not to love her.

Bob


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

AFEH said:


> I’m still very much in love with the memory of her. Loving who she became brought me too much pain so I decided for the first time my love was a choice and chose not to love her.
> 
> Bob


Ah, that is where I disagree though Bob. I think you do still love her and it isn't her memory. You are saddened that she has become resentful and cannot let go but I think deep down you wish she would. Am I wrong here? Like I said, there are men here who talk about their wives saying the love is gone but then post with such affection and care about them, that it makes me wonder if the love is gone. You and Deejo are those men.


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## Ser Pounce-A-Lot (Apr 7, 2011)

ManDup said:


> When we ask questions like, "does she still love me?" or "do I still love her?" we have to ask ourselves, what the heck are we talking about, anyway? I'm not particularly religious, but the bible does have a really good and old working definition of this word:
> 1 Corinthians 13
> " 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
> "
> ...


Very good question. I personally am inspired by Mort Fertel's definition that "Love is a verb". It's something you do to backup those most commonly-used words "I love you". My love for my wife is unconditional because I love her. It comes from me to her because my motivation is to become the best husband (and person) to her I can possibly be, and if she were to ever reject that love I would still love her because my love is unconditional. That is my mindset and my inspiration. That bible quote you mentioned is an excellent blueprint of how to love someone. Thanks for sharing that. Keep the debate going, as I'm always interested in other people's viewpoints


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

I often look at my husband and tell him: You are the only man who can make me happy! You are the only man who knows how to make me happy. There are men with wealth, there are men with great bodies, there are men with successful careers, but you are the only man who understands me. 

Sometimes I don't want to go to sleep early, I don't want to take a nap, or I don't want to do things alone because I want to spend more time with my husband, and we are spending day and night together. As long as my husband is with me, my world is safe, peaceful, and happy!


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> That's why I think people shouldn't marry until mid or late 20s - that's when the hormones start to wan and they can think clearly about whether they are truly in love or experiencing lust which makes them believe they are in love.


Apostle Paul also recommended that.


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## Ser Pounce-A-Lot (Apr 7, 2011)

greenpearl said:


> I often look at my husband and tell him: You are the only man who can make me happy! You are the only man who knows how to make me happy. There are men with wealth, there are men with great bodies, there are men with successful careers, but you are the only man who understands me.
> 
> Sometimes I don't want to go to sleep early, I don't want to take a nap, or I don't want to do things alone because I want to spend more time with my husband, and we are spending day and night together. As long as my husband is with me, my world is safe, peaceful, and happy!


Wow, thank you for sharing that. That is exactly how I feel with my wife and you were able to articulate it better than I could have. My wife is my world and I would do anything to please her.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Ser Pounce-A-Lot said:


> Wow, thank you for sharing that. That is exactly how I feel with my wife and you were able to articulate it better than I could have. My wife is my world and I would do anything to please her.


Living with a person you love and who loves you back. It is a wonderful feeling, isn't it!  

That's love!


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## Ser Pounce-A-Lot (Apr 7, 2011)

greenpearl said:


> Living with a person you love and who loves you back. It is a wonderful feeling, isn't it!
> 
> That's love!


Agreed!!!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I really do think you still love her. You still talk about her with such affection and admiration. I rarely see you post alot of negatives about her. I admire that. If I am off base here, just tell me to ****** off.
> I see alot of men here talk about their relationship is dead but then post with such love it gives me pause. It makes me wonder if the love is really dead or if it hurts less to harden their hearts.


Bless you Therealbrighteyes! I don’t like someone I fear and who holds grudges against me. I wont be with someone whom I don’t believe what they say unless I can independently verify it. I wont give to someone who doesn’t appreciate me. AFEH: Appreciation; Forgiveness; Emotional Honesty.

I’ve been very consistent with these things in various times in my marriage and all since my separation 18 months ago. I know what I need and I know my wife is totally incapable of giving it to me. It is a seismic clash of values which is what invariably brings marriages down, no matter how much love is there. Hearts do get hardened to prevent anymore pain, the pain is profound. Trick is not to let it affect other relationships, to approach them with an open heart and an open mind. 

Bob


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## ManDup (Apr 22, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Webster's, by definition, defines the word love as:
> 
> - A deep and passionate feeling or affection for another.
> 
> ...


That's a really good point. I'm just now beginning to get a grip on this and I'm 48.  I believe I avoided these pitfalls in my current marriage, but really only time will tell. I think this is why it's important to have external benchmarks, such as a solid idea of what love looks like, so we can check against that. I think some societal practices like arranged marriages were created to attempt to address these issues.


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## ManDup (Apr 22, 2011)

Ser Pounce-A-Lot said:


> Very good question. I personally am inspired by Mort Fertel's definition that "Love is a verb". It's something you do to backup those most commonly-used words "I love you". My love for my wife is unconditional because I love her. It comes from me to her because my motivation is to become the best husband (and person) to her I can possibly be, and if she were to ever reject that love I would still love her because my love is unconditional. That is my mindset and my inspiration. That bible quote you mentioned is an excellent blueprint of how to love someone. Thanks for sharing that. Keep the debate going, as I'm always interested in other people's viewpoints


This is an interesting addition to the discussion, this concept of unconditional love. I don't think I'm capable of that anymore, if I ever was. If love is a verb; that is, something you do, then I will most certainly stop doing it under certain conditions, like a PA.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Ser Pounce-A-Lot said:


> It comes from me to her because my motivation is to become the best husband (and person) to her I can possibly be, and if she were to ever reject that love I would still love her because my love is unconditional.


Many people start out thinking their love for their spouse is unconditional. What these people are in essence saying “I’ve have no personal boundaries, I therefore love you unconditionally, do what you will with me and I will always love you”. People divorce because those personal boundaries they didn’t even know they had got well and truly trashed by their spouse.

Unfortunately that’s the time we discover we do indeed have personal boundaries and that our love is therefore conditional, conditional on our spouses’ respect for our boundaries. But usually it’s way too late by that time. We’re not only inexperienced in discovering and naming our boundaries, we’re also totally inexperienced in enforcing them in a mature and successful way.

We have personal boundaries to protect and defend our core values and beliefs and some we defend to the bitter end in that we are totally unwilling to compromise them in any way at all. It’s the clash of core values and beliefs that bring marriages down.

Bob


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

AFEH said:


> I know what my type of love for my wife was. It was the romantic type, Eros and Cupid from Greek Mythology. Arrows, knight in shining armour stuff. Lasted 42 years, very very deep. Sometimes very blind, mostly joyful and happy and very rewarding. Left me almost at the end as quick as it entered me at the beginning. It did take a lot to kill it off though.
> 
> Bob


Robert,

Sometimes, I think you're simply 15 more years up the road from me.

I couldn't describe it any better.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Robert,
> 
> Sometimes, I think you're simply 15 more years up the road from me.
> 
> I couldn't describe it any better.


Ha! I only ever got called Robert when being told off as a kiddie.


I'm sure she appreciated me somewhere along the way. It just didn't FEEL like it. In fact it more often felt the opposite.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Ha! I only ever got called Robert when being told off as a kiddie.
> 
> 
> I'm sure she appreciated me somewhere along the way. It just didn't FEEL like it. In fact it more often felt the opposite.


Mine liked to engage in the "I'm more important than you" part.

Once I figured out the kids were more important than her, I pieced the thing together.

I was on the bottom rung.


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## ManDup (Apr 22, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Many people start out thinking their love for their spouse is unconditional. What these people are in essence saying “I’ve have no personal boundaries, I therefore love you unconditionally, do what you will with me and I will always love you”. People divorce because those personal boundaries they didn’t even know they had got well and truly trashed by their spouse.
> 
> Unfortunately that’s the time we discover we do indeed have personal boundaries and that our love is therefore conditional, conditional on our spouses’ respect for our boundaries. But usually it’s way too late by that time. We’re not only inexperienced in discovering and naming our boundaries, we’re also totally inexperienced in enforcing them in a mature and successful way.
> 
> ...


Yes, and it is also important to ask, is her love for me conditional? It most likely is if it is healthy. Regardless of whether you "still love her" after she stops loving you, there is definitely some point where you will stop doing things for her. For example, if she asked you to be set free, isn't the loving thing to do to let her go?

So, the question needs to be asked, how do I know I'm being loved back? For me right now, this is largely theoretical because I'm still in the infatuation stage of a new marriage, but I'm asking these questions partly to stay on track and partly to provoke questions. 

I also look back on my prior marriage with different eyes now that I am in an actual loving relationship and I see that I never ever was before, by this definition. I always seemed to give more. However I do worry that I am now giving less without realizing it. I'm getting no complaints for now, but how do I know resentment isn't building? How do I know what is enough to give, and when to draw the line? It's a balancing act.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

My opinion, the word "love" is a distraction as far as effective relationship analysis.

Want a relationship to work? Then recognize the SELFISH aspects between the man and woman that fuel the NEED and DESIRE to be together.

These tings, in general, for a man is sexual satisfaction, and the opportunity to be a "hero" to his woman (emotional ego boost).

For a woman, is emotional, social, material, and sexual security.

Satisfy these selfish needs, and call it "love" or lust or sexual attraction or whatever you wish.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

ManDup said:


> I'm getting no complaints for now, but how do I know resentment isn't building? How do I know what is enough to give, and when to draw the line? It's a balancing act.


I like the idea of marriage enrichment programs, kind of “Food for thought” for married couples, basically other’s ideas about what keeps a marriage happy and healthy.

I also think anniversaries can be used for much more than “going out for a meal”. An anniversary is a great opportunity to review lasts years plans and objectives and make new plans and objectives for next year. To see if there’re any unresolved issues/conflicts from the past year and if there are to do things to resolve them.

Bob


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Wolf,

When a woman uses communication techniques to make herself "more important" than her partner - such as shutting down conversations as soon as she's held accountable, interrupting, talking over, and blameshifting, etc - does this contribute to emotional insecurity?

Or is it a function of emotional insecurity?

Perhaps even emotional immaturity?





BigBadWolf said:


> My opinion, the word "love" is a distraction as far as effective relationship analysis.
> 
> Want a relationship to work? Then recognize the SELFISH aspects between the man and woman that fuel the NEED and DESIRE to be together.
> 
> ...


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

Conrad said:


> Wolf,
> 
> When a woman uses communication techniques to make herself "more important" than her partner - such as shutting down conversations as soon as she's held accountable, interrupting, talking over, and blameshifting, etc - does this contribute to emotional insecurity?
> 
> ...


These type of communication techniques are symptoms of emotional insecurity already in place (although in a man failing fitness testing, it will grow a woman's insecurity with her man).

Fitness tests, lack of respect, lack of sexual attraction, nagging, these types of things to her man from a woman will flow from this same root.

As men, we first understand what a woman wants:

A woman, she herself wants to FEEL (sexually/emotionally) as if she has the (sexual attraction/desire/love/security/etc.) of the man who demonstrates dominance in his action and behavior, and that out of all the other women in the world this man desires her above any other.


A significant or prolonged deficit in any of these areas of a woman feeling this very way toward her man will produce these negative communication techniques, which as a man we should correctly view as mere diversions.

In initial and early stages of a relationship, or in the healthy relationship and marriage even of many many years, this diversions are often mere "fitness tests", which we understand are used to reinforce woman's feeling she is indeed desired by the kind of man she wishes to be desired by (dominant, in control of himself, etc).

In a damaged or unhealthy relationship (usually by prolonged failed fitness testing over time), these diversions are manifested more the nagging and blameshifting, which in my experience are still mostly extreme fitness tests that simply have grown out of control. The "spiral of resentment" comes when the woman is in such a way, and her man is reacting by "shutting down" or otherwise becoming conflict avoidant to keep the peace.

And your final comment, about emotional immaturity, be careful on that one! 

Do not assume that even after years and years in a relationship with a woman these fundamental things will change! They will not!

Where there is sexual attraction, there WILL be some sort of demonstration of dominance and submission.

Therefore unless the man is proactive to a very great degree to demonstrate his dominance (excel mightily in some tangible aspect such as sports or career for example, or master a musical instrument or other skill or art, or be very much the take charge individual in social situations, etc.) he WILL experience fitness tests from his woman.

The scale of sexual attraction is ancient and primal, and is not graphed simple from points immature to points mature, but more completely understood as measured from points wild to points domesticated.

And we know from domestication, that is merely breeding animals to favor pre-adolescent characteristics (fatty tissue, cuteness, tolerance, submisive tendancies, etc.) over post adolescent characteristics (lean muscle,aggresiveness, fangs, claws, sharp horns, dominant tendancies). 

Also we understand why in our politically correct (domesticated) modern society humans tend to be so sexually confused!

So this is also why I encourage men to master fitness tests, as in any form of showing his dominant side, and not to avoid them and to NOT avoid the woman because she is testing him. And with his woman, not to be mired down with political correctness or timidity or "politeness" or some other domesticated habit. 

For when it comes to these sexual relationships, primal and ancient language we call sexual attraction is key, and our "wild side" rules the day!


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Not sure where the road will take me with my wife but I know I will always love her. I however will choose to quit showing her that I love her. Being in love should be the verb part thats doing all the nice little things etc and so forth. You are activley expressing love for that person and it should be very conditional upon if they are expressing love back (whether it be romantic parental friendly etc.)

However once you allow someone in your heart and decide to truley love them their is no turning back you will always love them. My mother is a dirty crack *****...no seriously she is... I still love the woman under all the drugs but I quit expressing love to her a long time ago. I wish her no ill or anything I just don't want to be associated with a dirty crack *****. Doesn't mean I don't love her.


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## Ser Pounce-A-Lot (Apr 7, 2011)

ManDup said:


> This is an interesting addition to the discussion, this concept of unconditional love. I don't think I'm capable of that anymore, if I ever was. If love is a verb; that is, something you do, then I will most certainly stop doing it under certain conditions, like a PA.


Yes, I should definitely add the one exception to my unconditional love philosophy: Physical Abuse. That kinda goes without saying in my mind but it's important to state that here. Your physical wellbeing should always be your number 1 priority but after that comes love. And that love comes from my own motivation to be the best husband possible, and therefore I never run out of motivation. I find it very empowering to know that the love that I bring to my marriage can keep bringing us closer and closer together. As opposed to the just being an observer, so to speak, in my marriage and picking out the flaws of my spouse, I can pick out the flaws in myself and focus on improvign them. To summarize, for me, as taught by Mort Fertel, the opposite of love is 'apathy'. I really connect with that.


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## ManDup (Apr 22, 2011)

Ser Pounce-A-Lot said:


> Yes, I should definitely add the one exception to my unconditional love philosophy: Physical Abuse. That kinda goes without saying in my mind but it's important to state that here. Your physical wellbeing should always be your number 1 priority but after that comes love.


Yes, physical abuse is for me beyond the pale (though I did experience it a couple of times in my prior marriage). The PA I meant was Physical Affair. I refuse to have either of those things done to me again, and I think the best path to that is to set strong, zero-tolerance boundaries about it early on. Then, of course, to do those things that keep comfort and attraction going in equal measure in the relationship. In my view, those things can be separate and mutually exclusive. To be attracted to me, my wife will sometimes require demonstrations of protective strength, no matter how masked in modern behaviors. If I can't even stand up to her, how can I stand up for her? That is the essence of the fitness test. I know now not to fail these important tests.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

ALL violent behavior, even self destructive behavior is a no-go.


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

greenpearl said:


> i often look at my husband and tell him: You are the only man who can make me happy! You are the only man who knows how to make me happy. There are men with wealth, there are men with great bodies, there are men with successful careers, but you are the only man who understands me.
> 
> Sometimes i don't want to go to sleep early, i don't want to take a nap, or i don't want to do things alone because i want to spend more time with my husband, and we are spending day and night together. As long as my husband is with me, my world is safe, peaceful, and happy!


your post made me cry !!!!!!!!!!!


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## Duke (May 15, 2011)

greenpearl said:


> I often look at my husband and tell him: You are the only man who can make me happy! You are the only man who knows how to make me happy. There are men with wealth, there are men with great bodies, there are men with successful careers, but you are the only man who understands me.
> 
> Sometimes I don't want to go to sleep early, I don't want to take a nap, or I don't want to do things alone because I want to spend more time with my husband, and we are spending day and night together. As long as my husband is with me, my world is safe, peaceful, and happy!


Greenpearl, you are an inspiration to us all!


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

You guys make me blush!


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