# Ethical Non-monogamy



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

The good, the bad, the ugly. This is a place for discussing things that have worked, things that have not, horror stories, success stories, etc. 

I specifically don't want to talk about whether or not it's moral or ethical. I would like this to be a place for people who practice ENM to share advice and tell their stories, and a place for people who are considering it to get advice from people who actually have experience with it, whether they be good or bad. 

If you have had bad experiences with it, feel free to put them here. Likewise if you have had positive experiences. Hopefully, we can get enough experiences in one thread to give people with no experience with ENM an objective look at what it actually looks like in real life for real people.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

I have met a few swingers and open relationship types. One of those married couples is still together...barely. The wife tried to kill herself because the 3rd person they brought into their marriage tried (and almost succeeded) to steal her husband from her. Every other example I have seen was usually just an excuse to cheat and it was generally more one sided. As a man, I would never enter such an arrangement because men will quickly learn that their woman has many more opportunities to have fun on the side than they do. I know a married guy going through that as we speak. YMMV


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

From my experience, many people set themselves up for obvious failure by going into things blind and unprepared. They don't fully considered how they or their spouses are going to feel with various situations. 

As to women having far more opportunities than the men, that depends on if you are operating within the general population or within the lifestyle community. In the general population for example if a couple just goes out to the bar for a hookup the womans chances are on average better than the guys. Within the lifestyle community meaning lifestyle websites, parties, clubs I would say this isn't the case. 

Successfully navigating things have a lot to do with intentions. If you're a husband just looking to get some from a stranger and use swinging as an excuse for your own selfish reasons you're going to have problems. If a couple approach it mutually and are both 100% on board, and you are looking to enhance an already outstanding relationship and not using it to try and fix something in their relationship the chances are better. 

We never had a hookup with another couple, but we met some great couples who were able to give us a lot of tidbits of wisdom. For us a big part of the fun was meeting other like minded people, and some of the stories long time swingers have to tell are amazing, some funny, some sexy, some totally cringe.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

I think this is too broad a topic; ENM itself is separate from why someone chose ENM. Was it something someone was driven to because things weren't working out? Requested by one spouse, resistance from the other? Driven to by desire by both parties?

And what is the meaning of "Ethical" in ENM? When my wife told me that, if I cared so much about sex I should go out and have an affair or find a hooker, had I done so, would that have been ENM or an inappropriate response to irrationality?


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Casual Observer said:


> And what is the meaning of "Ethical" in ENM? When my wife told me that, if I cared so much about sex I should go out and have an affair or find a hooker, had I done so, would that have been ENM or an inappropriate response to irrationality?


This is an interesting question. If the wife was just done with sex in general but the relationship was otherwise great then I would say it would fall into the ethical category. If the lack of sex was a result of a troubled marriage and the wife was just trying to get the husband off her back, then the husband should know better than to go forward with it. A one sided arrangement has never seemed to be something that would turn out well to me.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

happyhusband0005 said:


> From my experience, many people set themselves up for obvious failure by going into things blind and unprepared. They don't fully considered how they or their spouses are going to feel with various situations.
> 
> As to women having far more opportunities than the men, that depends on if you are operating within the general population or within the lifestyle community. In the general population for example if a couple just goes out to the bar for a hookup the womans chances are on average better than the guys. Within the lifestyle community meaning lifestyle websites, parties, clubs I would say this isn't the case.
> 
> ...


If their relationship was already outstanding then they would have no reason to do this. The fact that they get involved in this shows that they feel something is lacking so their marriage isnt outstanding at all.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I have no problem with swingers. If you want to swing and screw around -- don't get married!! This seems obvious enough. Seriously, I halfway admire someone who makes a clean choice for that lifestyle rather than the conventional one, but they shouldn't be leading people on or committing and should be honest about it.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

my experience with ENM has been largely positive. not every relationship lasted forever, but they didnt need to. i still talk to the ones i dont date anymore... so i guess the relationships never ended, they just changed.

but, thats kinda what my type of ENM is about... i am a relationship anarchist. which means i dont try to define relationships, rather, i let them progress as they naturally seem to want to go. 

my wife is living with one of our partners and his fiance. at the moment, i am actually stuck living in another state because of this pandemic, but before that, i was living with them too. we really enjoy having them around. while we arent dating his fiance, she is a sweet girl and good company. as it is right now, this living arrangement will last for at least the next six months, until my wife and daughter move up to where i am at. 

i am also dating two other people. one of them lives in new Hampshire with her fiance and we visit each other often, and the other is only dating me at the moment and lives about an hours drive away, in the same state.

whats funny is that when i started dating my boyfriend, my wife got kind of bummed out. she was jealous! i noticed it, talked to her, and kinda had a funny look on my face. i was kind of confused as to why she was bummed out. like, just tell him. see what he thinks. so she did, and they hit it off as well. 

so far as jealousy goes, there really isn't a lot. my wife and i sometimes start to feel a bit jealous of time spent with others, but its not very often and a simple conversation usually resolves it. its been a while since we had any issues with it though... i dont think its happened this year. 

since i am very demisexual, hookups and swinging aren't really my thing. i did go to a swingers club with my wife once or twice, but i wasn't really expecting much and mainly just enjoyed the conversations with people i met. i have never "played" at one.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> If their relationship was already outstanding then they would have no reason to do this. The fact that they get involved in this shows that they feel something is lacking so their marriage isnt outstanding at all.


my marriage is awesome. 

we just arent wired the same as you.

ETA: of course, im not a swinger. but im not monogamous either.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> If their relationship was already outstanding then they would have no reason to do this. The fact that they get involved in this shows that they feel something is lacking so their marriage isnt outstanding at all.


Thats not what things are actually like in reality. For some yes and those are the ones who fail miserably. The ones who have no issues arising from swinging typically have near flawless marriages to start.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> my wife is living with one of our partners and his fiance. ...
> ...
> whats funny is that when i started dating my boyfriend, my wife got kind of bummed out.


Seems there are two tales here, one of which is ENM, the other bisexuality in marriage.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I think it also depends on what phase in life you are in. If you have a lot of kids, or young kids in the home I think it changes things.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Casual Observer said:


> Seems there are two tales here, one of which is ENM, the other bisexuality.


well, yea. i have said for years that i am sometimes attracted to men. it doesn't happen very often, but it does happen.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Thats not what things are actually like in reality. For some yes and those are the ones who fail miserably. The ones who have no issues arising from swinging typically have near flawless marriages to start.


this has been what i see as well.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Girl_power said:


> I think it also depends on what phase in life you are in. If you have a lot of kids, or young kids in the home I think it changes things.


i dont think that actually makes much of a difference. for most of our marriage, we have had kids in the home. i dont think it effects non-monogamous relationships any more than monogamous ones.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Casual Observer said:


> I think this is too broad a topic; ENM itself is separate from why someone chose ENM. Was it something someone was driven to because things weren't working out? Requested by one spouse, resistance from the other? Driven to by desire by both parties?
> 
> And what is the meaning of "Ethical" in ENM? When my wife told me that, if I cared so much about sex I should go out and have an affair or find a hooker, had I done so, would that have been ENM or an inappropriate response to irrationality?


Ethical in this context is that all involved know what is happening and consent to it. Keeping secrets and going behind backs is not being ethical


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I have no problem with swingers. If you want to swing and screw around -- don't get married!! This seems obvious enough. Seriously, I halfway admire someone who makes a clean choice for that lifestyle rather than the conventional one, but they shouldn't be leading people on or committing and should be honest about it.


First of all the very definition of swinger requires marriage to be present. Granted, it has shifted from something a couple does, to a married person who has sex outside the marriage. So in order to swing, one must be married.

That said, why not? As long as all involved are aware of what is happening and are consenting to what is happening, they why should they not be married? In what way is someone being led on if all are consenting and aware? And by what standard should your idea of "committing" override their idea of "committing?


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## attheend02 (Jan 8, 2019)

It gets a little tricky for me when I try to define "consent"... too many definitions.

I am not religious, but consider myself ethical.

generally supportive, but am not sure what marriage means at this point.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Girl_power said:


> I think it also depends on what phase in life you are in. If you have a lot of kids, or young kids in the home I think it changes things.


Not really. There are plenty of poly families who have kids within them. The people who do Touch of Flavor have been poly and their son has been raised within that lifestyle. They do an interview with him (voice changed, and his identity has never been revealed on the podcast) and it is very informative and a good insight into such families.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

As'laDain said:


> well, yea. i have said for years that i am sometimes attracted to men. it doesn't happen very often, but it does happen.


While I'm not attracted to me, I have found out that a pre-op FtM holds the same attraction to me as cis women do, with the same limitations as I am not attracted to all cis women. I typically use heteroflexable to account for that.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

As'laDain said:


> this has been what i see as well.


I think I would be hesitant to use "flawless". Stable might be a better word. All relationships have their ups and downs and problems that are not affected by being either poly or mono.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

As'laDain said:


> i dont think that actually makes much of a difference. for most of our marriage, we have had kids in the home. i dont think it effects non-monogamous relationships any more than monogamous ones.


I'm skeptical. Whose kids did you raise, clothe, feed, send to college or who did the same for the kids you sired? Did the women all collectively wake and nurse said baby/babies through the night or did the men? Did anyone get a paternity test to see which dad gets to spank kiddos rear end when he misbehaves? Frankly I don't know any women that don't turn into "crazy protective mamma bears" if someone comes in and starts part time parenting or correcting- _their _kids. Of course, my experience is limited to monogamous moms only... maybe the ethical non-monogamous ladies are so sexed up they don't worry about trivial details about their kiddos.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> If their relationship was already outstanding then they would have no reason to do this. The fact that they get involved in this shows that they feel something is lacking so their marriage isnt outstanding at all.


This above is probably one of the biggest myths of swinging ( differentiating from open marriage)

In many cases it is actually the exact opposite.

Many of the couples that are active in the swinging lifestyle have very good sex lives and feel very confident and secure in their sexuality. 

Rather than seeking others to fulfill a missing need, they are already experiencing a good sexual dynamic and good communication and relationship so why not strive for another level of pleasure and excitement. 

Now are there those out there that do try to enter the lifestyle to try to make up for a bad sex life? - yes there are. But they don’t last very long. They usually crash and burn pretty quickly.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

As y’all go through these discussions, keep in mind that the people that are engaging in ENM that are content with it and not having any trouble with it...... keep it to themselves. 

They discreetly have their fun on weekends and sit quietly at work Monday morning with wicked little grin on their face while their coworkers talk about picking up dog poop in the yard and taking the kids to a bday party at Chucky Cheese. 

The cases you hear about are the ones that blew up in spectacular fashion and then howl to everyone that will listen that their partner did them wrong somehow. 

We were in the lifestyle for 10 years. Nothing bad happened. 

I talk about it hear a lot because this is an anonymous forum and I am just some text on the internet- - but virtually NONE of our friends, family, coworkers, neighbors etc have the slightest clue that we have ever been anything but a completely normal, boring, traditional couple, and we intend to keep it that way. 

Unless you live by yourself on a deserted island that gets good internet connection, you personally know some swingers, poly or people in an open relationship to one degree or another. You just don’t know it because they keep their private lives private (as it should be)


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Rather than seeking others to fulfill a missing need, they are already experiencing a good sexual dynamic and good communication and relationship so why not strive for another level of pleasure and excitement.


Let me put this into a couple analogies. A lot of people have motorcycles. Most run fine. But we all know a few guys that even though their bike works fine, they’re always trying to squeeze out a little more horsepower and put on after market exhausts and do bore kits etc etc 

It’s like that. A certain segment of the population are always going to try to squeeze out a little more horsepower and a little higher octane of performance.

Some people are happy as can be with their Prius. 

But there’s always a few that are under the hood of their Mustang every weekend trying to get a little more giddyup. 

Open marriage and polyamory are different paradigms that I don’t have any personal experience in.

But swinging is often about getting a little more horsepower and higher octane out of a sex life that already runs fine. 

If both people are happy with the performance of the Prius, don’t mess with it. 

But there are always going to be those that want more power coming off the line. 

Captain Kirk never told Scotty to give him less power and he hooked up with chicks in every corner of the galaxy.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> I'm skeptical. Whose kids did you raise, clothe, feed, send to college or who did the same for the kids you sired?


Do not people do these for their step children? And in cases of joint custody, does not both sets of parents do these things for the children? With this question it sounds as if you would refuse to raise, clothe, feed or send to college any child that was your wife's but not yours, and, should.you find yourself separate with joint custody, refuse to let a step father to do these things for your children



> Did the women all collectively wake and nurse said baby/babies through the night or did the men?


Why would they collectively do so? Why wouldn't they take turns, just as monogamous parents would take turns? In some families the other women will take the lactation drugs so that they can nurse the baby/babies as well.



> Did anyone get a paternity test to see which dad gets to spank kiddos rear end when he misbehaves?


Are you claiming that I needed to be related by blood before I can spank a child? Then I guess adoptive parents can never spank a child.



> Frankly I don't know any women that don't turn into "crazy protective mamma bears" if someone comes in and starts part time parenting or correcting- _their _kids.


So every woman you know that gets remarried while still having children with her, goes all "mama bear" when her husband attempts to discipline his step children?



> Of course, my experience is limited to monogamous moms only... maybe the ethical non-monogamous ladies are so sexed up they don't worry about trivial details about their kiddos.


I find it hard to believe that you have no experience with step parent/child situations, even if you are not in one yourself. Every one of the concern your raised apply to monogamous step parenting as well.

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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> This above is probably one of the biggest myths of swinging ( differentiating from open marriage).


Out of curiosity, what are you using as criteria to separate out swinging from open marriage from poly?

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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Enigma32 said:


> I have met a few swingers and open relationship types. One of those married couples is still together...barely. *The wife tried to kill herself because the 3rd person they brought into their marriage tried (and almost succeeded) to steal her husband from her.* Every other example I have seen was usually just an excuse to cheat and it was generally more one sided. As a man, I would never enter such an arrangement because men will quickly learn that their woman has many more opportunities to have fun on the side than they do. I know a married guy going through that as we speak. YMMV


This seems more of a function of emotional instability than an outcome of ENM...would she have had the same reaction if her husband cheated behind her back...?? 

And I'm not sure why you would use the expression "steal her husband from her"...is that even possible, to STEAL a partner? If someone is committed, they are committed...if they want to GO, they generally GO.

Why would she want someone with her that almost didn't want her anymore...?? That's NOT worth the fight either! She should have told him to GO and be happy, and found someone better FOR HERSELF.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

And correct me if I'm wrong @maquiscat, but I believe you've said that ENM doesn't always have a sexual aspect...is that right?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

maquiscat said:


> Out of curiosity, what are you using as criteria to separate out swinging from open marriage from poly?
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


This is straight out of the Oldshirt Dictionary of definitions- 

- swinging: When a couple indulges together as a couple such as 3somes, couple/couple, group sex orgies etc.

- open marriage: each partner (or one partner with the other’s knowledge and consent) engages with another person(s) on their own as individuals with the other’s knowledge and consent.

- polyamory: a relationship or even family made up or 3 or more people in an ongoing relationship which may even be exclusive and committed amongst its members. 

My experience and background is in swinging only although I have personally known people in open and poly relationships.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> I think it also depends on what phase in life you are in. If you have a lot of kids, or young kids in the home I think it changes things.


Our kids were a preschooler and a toddler when we started swinging.

I always had the biggest grin and snicker when we’d pick them up from the grandparents Sunday evening and they’d ask, “well, how was your weekend?” LOL


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> And correct me if I'm wrong @maquiscat, but I believe you've said that ENM doesn't always have a sexual aspect...is that right?


More specifically polyamory. Remember that ENM covers a large range of possibilities. Open relationships (or swinging if married) is automatically about sex. But poly is about the emotional relationships and may or may not include sex. And several of other posters here have reenforced that idea, when they have talked about people being in emotional affairs.

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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> - swinging: When a couple indulges together as a couple such as 3somes, couple/couple, group sex orgies etc.
> 
> - open marriage: each partner (or one partner with the other’s knowledge and consent) engages with another person(s) on their own as individuals with the other’s knowledge and consent.


So just for record, the above is part of possibly changing language. In the areas, I'm familiar with swinging has come to mean a married person having sex outside the marriage. This is irregardless of whether the ones in said marriage are doing it together or not. And it's not necessarily called an open marriage, since swinging covers that. It's the idea that swinging is open relationship, but not all open relationship is swinging.

But again, this is shifting language that I've noticed and might not solidify. Or it could turn regional sort of like the difference between soda and pop, or fries and chips.

I mostly point this out because while we can have a general idea with the current words, it's possible to not understand a situation because words are being used differently.

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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

maquiscat said:


> So just for record, the above is part of possibly changing language. In the areas, I'm familiar with swinging has come to mean a married person having sex outside the marriage. This is irregardless of whether the ones in said marriage are doing it together or not. And it's not necessarily called an open marriage, since swinging covers that. It's the idea that swinging is open relationship, but not all open relationship is swinging.
> 
> But again, this is shifting language that I've noticed and might not solidify. Or it could turn regional sort of like the difference between soda and pop, or fries and chips.
> 
> ...


The term swinging and swinger was originally applied to unmarried people who had sex AT ALL. Ie “swinging bachelors” and “ swinging single women” circa 1950-60s. 

It then transitioned in to couples as the term “wife swapping” of the 40s-50s was falling out of favor. 

Either way, this all muddies the waters of discussions like this when even people who engage in it can’t always agree on the definitions and terminology.

I know some old-school swingers (30+years in the lifestyle) that become quite miffed if single people refer to themselves or other singles as swingers, as to them only married couples can be swingers. 

To them a single person having sex is just getting laid.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

To each his own, but I kinda feel like marriage is enough of a challenge. I think of this like trying to being a race car driver, but then trying to wear a blindfold.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Again I am basically a live and let live type guy. But I think there can be some large challenges to this whole "Ethical Non-monogamy" idea in regards to already existing marriages. I don't think these conversations tend to be honest about that either, because these are generally ignored. 

To start with, this whole I am just not a monogamous person idea. 

I don't doubt that but my first question to that is when did you know that? Did you know that before you married a person under the grounds that you were entering a monogamous marriage, because if you did you are anything but ethical. What you are is a liar who keep your nature secret as to have the best options in who you married. You aimed to trap the person you were married and then use that marriage as leverage to have more options. Nope your not ethical, just a straight up asshole. And if you think you are your full of ****. So there is that. 

And as far as I can tell this is the very common MO of a hell of a lot of these so called "non-monogamous" types, which is why I bring it up, and why I have such a bad taste about it. It seems it always comes up AFTER they are in a monogamous relationship, and have presented themselves as monogamous for years. I mean how many people like this tell potential mates up front at the beginning of a dating relationship, oh by the way I am "non-monogamous". Almost no one does that because it would cut their potential mating pool down by like 75%. Now if you say it up front then I have no problem, again more power too you. 

Now lets talk about swinging, I am sure there is the rare couple that can do it and do is successfully. But I also suspect that the couple that does that already establishes that early on in the relationship. What we usually get on these sites is one spouse wanting to do it way after the fact, like that recent post on here. So my question is what if you ask your mate and they don't want to? How does that work? I mean if my wife asked me that it would change my opinion of her so much I think we would be done.

I mean what you are basically doing is changing the whole paradigm of the relationship. Lets think about that in other aspect of marriage that have nothing to do with sex. Lets say work. What if I came to my wife one day and said, you know what I discovered about myself, I don't like working so I am just not going to work anymore. I am "non-laborer" and need to be in a "non-laborious" relationship. Would that be cool? Would we all think that was kind of ****ed up?

What if I just decided I didn't want to bathe. "I'm non-hygienic. I feel I would be missing out if I have to bathe and if I have to continue my life just won't be the same." As someone who is very monogamous, the idea of becoming a swinger particularly being married to one is about as appealing to me as being with someone who doesn't bathe (no offense) so maybe you can understand why if my wife asked me to do that I would probably be done with her at that point.

So is it fair or ethical to try to renegotiate the marriage contract so radically after the fact when potentially your spouses fortune as well as their children may be in the balance? I say no it's not.

The point is, I think you better both be on the same page before you bring it up and you better have no doubts in your mind. And if you can't be sure the only ethical thing to do is sacrifice this vice you might want and don't even bring it up. No one is asking you do do anything but keep the vows you willing made. This is what adult married people do. Life is about sacrifice.

Now if you negotiate all this before you get married then again it's your life, I don't care.

My issue with poly is just if you have a kid. Whose kid is it? What if they all divorce, who get rights, is there even laws about that, do they all get them, what if the one person doesn't want to pay to support it. Somehow I think the kid will suffer and I will end up paying for it.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

sokillme said:


> Again I am basically a live and let live type guy. But I think there can be some large challenges to this whole "Ethical Non-monogamy" idea in regards to already existing marriages. I don't think these conversations tend to be honest about that either, because these are generally ignored.
> 
> To start with, this whole I am just not a monogamous person idea.
> 
> ...


So, do you have any actual experience with the topic, or are you just here to give your opinion?


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

As'laDain said:


> So, do you have any actual experience with the topic, or are you just here to give your opinion?


He has some very good logical questions and concerns. Not saying I agree with all the premises they're based upon, but they are still some legit issues. I'm working on an overall response, but work and all....

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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

@sokillme 

My wife’s loss of libido and interest in our 50s today has changed the dynamic and paradigms of our relationship wwaaaayyy much more radically than did the initial discussions of swinging in our late 30s/40. 

Our discussions of swinging at that time was probably no more disruptive to us than discussing getting new furniture or a new bedroom set. 

I think you have a number of presumptions above that are simply not accurate for many couples today. 

I’ll discuss more later when I get more time.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> And correct me if I'm wrong @maquiscat, but I believe you've said that ENM doesn't always have a sexual aspect...is that right?


This is very true. With one of my partners at least, our relationship is very affectionate but not very sexual. She is "grey asexual". So, she does want to have sex, or at least be sexual every once in a while, but it's quite rare. 

Most of our time together is spent either cuddling/kissing or sharing hobbies. She leads a computer research department at a prominent institute of technology, and is always tinkering with new stuff. 

We often teach each other new stuff when we are together. I am more well versed in telecommunications technologies than she is and she is more knowledgeable with computers, programming, and rapid prototyping. 

We also bond over self defense and some "prepper" topics, like first aid, guns, survival, etc.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

maquiscat said:


> He has some very good logical questions and concerns. Not saying I agree with all the premises they're based upon, but they are still some legit issues. I'm working on an overall response, but work and all....
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


Maybe, but a lot of it gets lossed in what looks mostly like attempts at shaming and discrediting.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

As'laDain said:


> Maybe, but a lot of it gets lossed in what looks mostly like attempts at shaming and discrediting.


I was just thinking this morning that maybe you should have started a thread for people who want to judge ENM, so the thread-jacks will stop...Lol!!

And I'm serious...I know @maquiscat might enjoy the challenge...and could handle it WELL!!


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> I was just thinking this morning that maybe you should have started a thread for people who want to judge ENM, so the thread-jacks will stop...Lol!!
> 
> And I'm serious...I know @maquiscat might enjoy the challenge...and could handle it WELL!!


_courtly bow_ I am honored by your confidence in my abilities, Milady.

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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> I was just thinking this morning that maybe you should have started a thread for people who want to judge ENM, so the thread-jacks will stop...Lol!!
> 
> And I'm serious...I know @maquiscat might enjoy the challenge...and could handle it WELL!!


i might just do that.

i really dont mind the horror stories. even if people are relating someone elses story, its applicable. anyone thinking about opening up their marriage needs access to real stories and examples, and that includes the abysmal failures. 

but, it seems that those that are most vocal about opposing it have no experience with ENM. 

it kinda reminds me of people who tell me that homesteading will be super hard, ill be broke, ill never be able to produce enough food, etc. i get this response sometimes when i tell people that i plan on homesteading after i retire from the army. the people who spend their time trying to discourage me from it are people that have never actually done it. those who have just tell me about the challenges they faced and how they overcame them.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

CatholicDad said:


> I'm skeptical. Whose kids did you raise, clothe, feed, send to college or who did the same for the kids you sired? Did the women all collectively wake and nurse said baby/babies through the night or did the men? Did anyone get a paternity test to see which dad gets to spank kiddos rear end when he misbehaves? Frankly I don't know any women that don't turn into "crazy protective mamma bears" if someone comes in and starts part time parenting or correcting- _their _kids. Of course, my experience is limited to monogamous moms only... maybe the ethical non-monogamous ladies are so sexed up they don't worry about trivial details about their kiddos.


that is a bunch of weird questions... 

i am raising my own kid, and my boyfriend and his fiance have one on the way. they will be raising their child, but we will be involved as well. 
so far as paternity goes, we know who the biological parents are. no need for a paternity test. as for discipline, we are all involved. we simply talk about it, get on the same page, and respect each others wishes and opinions. 

the whole mamma bear comment has me scratching my head. we all appreciate it when our daughter gets the same treatment from all the adults. that way, she doesnt pit us against each other, or simply ask someone else for something when she gets told no. we dont spank kids after they leave the toddler stage, since other forms of discipline are more effective and less traumatic. and even for toddlers, we only spank them when its necessary to instil a healthy fear of things that could get them killed or seriously injured. 

and yes, the ladies are quite sexed up. maybe that is why they can handle the stress of parenting as well as they do. we get comments all the time about how well adjusted and well mannered our daughter is.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> As y’all go through these discussions, keep in mind that the people that are engaging in ENM that are content with it and not having any trouble with it...... keep it to themselves.
> 
> They discreetly have their fun on weekends and sit quietly at work Monday morning with wicked little grin on their face while their coworkers talk about picking up dog poop in the yard and taking the kids to a bday party at Chucky Cheese.


Well, this part stood out to me. If ENM participants have a dog or kids, don't they have to pick up dog poop from the yard and bring their kids to a weekend bday party, at some point? I mean, just because you are having sex with people other than your spouse doesn't mean mundane life tasks disappear. ****ing someone else isn't magic fairy dust-- dogs still poop, kids still want to go to bday parties, the lawn needs to get mowed, dishes still need to be washed, etc.

In between the poop and the party, the other co worker may have had just as much sexual fun with their spouse as you had with a non spouse. 

I think it's a mistake to assume that non monogamy is automatically more fun than monogamy.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

As'laDain said:


> i might just do that.
> 
> i really dont mind the horror stories. even if people are relating someone elses story, its applicable. anyone thinking about opening up their marriage needs access to real stories and examples, and that includes the abysmal failures.
> 
> ...


You could title it "For Your Discussion - ENM is Healthy for Some Couples". That would bring them ALL out to be dealt with! Lol!!

I hold myself back from responding alot so I don't continue the thread jacks - I'd love to be able to challenge some of the judgemental posts.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> You could title it "For Your Discussion - ENM is Healthy for Some Couples". That would bring them ALL out to be dealt with! Lol!!
> 
> I hold myself back from responding alot so I don't continue the thread jacks - I'd love to be able to challenge some of the judgemental posts.


i dont mind if you call them out here. i just like to point out the difference between posts that are based on actual experience and posts that are based on what people _think_ about it.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Livvie said:


> Well, this part stood out to me. If ENM participants have a dog or kids, don't they have to pick up dog poop from the yard and bring their kids to a weekend bday party, at some point? I mean, just because you are having sex with people other than your spouse doesn't mean mundane life tasks disappear. ****ing someone else isn't magic fairy dust-- dogs still poop, kids still want to go to bday parties, the lawn needs to get mowed, dishes still need to be washed, etc.
> 
> In between the poop and the party, the other co worker may have had just as much sexual fun with their spouse as you had with a non spouse.
> 
> I think it's a mistake to assume that non monogamy is automatically more fun than monogamy.


yes, all the mundane stuff keeps happening. with swingers, they just have fun on their own time, which is no different than a monogamous couple finding a baby sitter for date night. 
for a lot of polyamorous people, the mundane stuff often gets easier since their are more people sharing responsibilities.

that often does mean that we have more time and resources, so we do get to spend more time having fun.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Livvie said:


> Well, this part stood out to me. If ENM participants have a dog or kids, don't they have to pick up dog poop from the yard and bring their kids to a weekend bday party, at some point? I mean, just because you are having sex with people other than your spouse doesn't mean mundane life tasks disappear. ****ing someone else isn't magic fairy dust-- dogs still poop, kids still want to go to bday parties, the lawn needs to get mowed, dishes still need to be washed, etc.
> 
> In between the poop and the party, the other co worker may have had just as much sexual fun with their spouse as you had with a non spouse.
> 
> I think it's a mistake to assume that non monogamy is automatically more fun than monogamy.


You are quite correct in that poop pick ups and bday parties still go on.

But you sure have a wicked grin on your face remembering the night before while your picking up poop 😉 😃


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Sorry for the thread jack. I'm not a step dad and actually don't know any. Based on my reading here though the amount of conflict, stress, and discouragement they face compared to myself makes this specific form of "ENM"- sound awful. It seems like this is the basis for the defense that ENM works. Ultimately, more power to you if you can. There's no way I could ever share my wife or kids. It takes everything I've got to raise my kids, keep their cars running, get them through college/trade schools, help them move/furnish apartments, keep my boat running, fridge stocked, kids fed....etc. etc. I don't think I could stand working as hard as I do while man#2 let's say would be inside enjoying the fruits of my labors, making love to _my _wife or playing games with _my _kids. Seems like resentment would always come in especially if the fruits and labors are not somehow equally shared- and in the real world this would be impossible to manage.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

CatholicDad said:


> Sorry for the thread jack. I'm not a step dad and actually don't know any. Based on my reading here though the amount of conflict, stress, and discouragement they face compared to myself makes this specific form of "ENM"- sound awful. It seems like this is the basis for the defense that ENM works. Ultimately, more power to you if you can. There's no way I could ever share *my* wife or kids. It takes everything I've got to raise* my* kids, keep their cars running, get them through college/trade schools, help them move/furnish apartments, keep my boat running, fridge stocked, kids fed....etc. etc. I don't think I could stand working as hard as I do while man#2 let's say would be inside enjoying the fruits of *my* labors, making love to _*my* _wife or playing games with _*my* _kids. Seems like resentment would always come in especially if the fruits and labors are not somehow equally shared- *and in the real world this would be impossible to manage*.


you are saying it is impossible to manage, but simply put, you are incorrect. i have no problem managing it.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> Sorry for the thread jack. I'm not a step dad and actually don't know any. Based on my reading here though the amount of conflict, stress, and discouragement they face compared to myself makes this specific form of "ENM"- sound awful. It seems like this is the basis for the defense that ENM works. Ultimately, more power to you if you can. There's no way I could ever share my wife or kids. It takes everything I've got to raise my kids, keep their cars running, get them through college/trade schools, help them move/furnish apartments, keep my boat running, fridge stocked, kids fed....etc. etc. I don't think I could stand working as hard as I do while man#2 let's say would be inside enjoying the fruits of my labors, making love to _my _wife or playing games with _my _kids. Seems like resentment would always come in especially if the fruits and labors are not somehow equally shared- and in the real world this would be impossible to manage.


And that's perfectly FINE if it works for you and your wife!

But for others, it works and is rewarding and enjoyable. And that is great for THEM.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I think the test is if it works of the entire course of someone's life- and their children's. All is sunny and happy when you're young and the kids are little. I know of many, many 50 year plus marriages that have beautiful fruits- happy children that became good, productive, kind, charitable adults.

Based on what I've read here the swingers tend to have a "revolving door" on lovers and kids coming into their lives- and out of them. Could be wrong and don't want to single anyone out. Parenting is a lifetime commitment... don't get that sense from the swingers.

Sure it works "for THEM".... but how'd the kids fair? I'm a little concerned for them. Oh well. Threadjack complete!


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## attheend02 (Jan 8, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> I think the test is if it works of the entire course of someone's life- and their children's. All is sunny and happy when you're young and the kids are little. I know of many, many 50 year plus marriages that have beautiful fruits- happy children that became good, productive, kind, charitable adults.
> 
> Based on what I've read here the swingers tend to have a "revolving door" on lovers and kids coming into their lives- and out of them. Could be wrong and don't want to single anyone out. Parenting is a lifetime commitment... don't get that sense from the swingers.
> 
> Sure it works "for THEM".... but how'd the kids fair? I'm a little concerned for them. Oh well. Threadjack complete!


I think that if we follow your proposed test, you would have ~50% chance of succeeding.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

CatholicDad said:


> I think the test is if it works of the entire course of someone's life- and their children's. All is sunny and happy when you're young and the kids are little. I know of many, many 50 year plus marriages that have beautiful fruits- happy children that became good, productive, kind, charitable adults.
> 
> Based on what I've read here the swingers tend to have a "revolving door" on lovers and kids coming into their lives- and out of them. Could be wrong and don't want to single anyone out. Parenting is a lifetime commitment... don't get that sense from the swingers.
> 
> Sure it works "for THEM".... but how'd the kids fair? I'm a little concerned for them. Oh well. Threadjack complete!


_Swingers_ don't have multi-adult families or kids outside their marriage. You're talking about _polyamorous_ people who form loving relationships that can last long term. Some do have children, and stay together raising happy, healthy children - and some fail, as do monogamous couples. Even so, your child is still your child - for life. Swingers are distinctly different than poly people in their goals and relationship style.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

CatholicDad said:


> I think the test is if it works of the entire course of someone's life- and their children's. All is sunny and happy when you're young and the kids are little. I know of many, many 50 year plus marriages that have beautiful fruits- happy children that became good, productive, kind, charitable adults.
> 
> Based on what I've read here the swingers tend to have a "revolving door" on lovers and kids coming into their lives- and out of them. Could be wrong and don't want to single anyone out. Parenting is a lifetime commitment... don't get that sense from the swingers.
> 
> Sure it works "for THEM".... but how'd the kids fair? I'm a little concerned for them. Oh well. Threadjack complete!


my great grandparents were swingers for a very very long time. their kids were fine. 
they werent involved in raising anyone elses kids.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

sokillme said:


> Again I am basically a live and let live type guy. But I think there can be some large challenges to this whole "Ethical Non-monogamy" idea in regards to already existing marriages. I don't think these conversations tend to be honest about that either, because these are generally ignored.
> 
> To start with, this whole I am just not a monogamous person idea.
> 
> ...


I think a lot of what you say here is generally correct and a lot of what you describe is situations in which people will flame out of the lifestyle. And they key is the difference between couples who do it successfully and those who don't. Those that do the common factor is usually honesty and open communication to an extreme degree. Generally most people who have successfully spent years in the lifestyle can quickly spot the types you describe, where one member of the couple is no really on board and just doing it to please the other. Most experienced people know to avoid that like the plague. My wife and I only ever played with other women, I can't tell you how many guys reached out to us saying his wife was bisexual and he was trying to help her have her first FF experience. We met with one of these couples, it was immediately apparent that the wife was not really bisexual at all and the husband was just a creepy dude looking for some live action porn and using his wife as bait. These guys are generally seriously creepy, we ran from this. You develop and refine a sixth sense to spot fakes fairly quickly. 

Some couples like my wife and I didn't get married with any idea that swinging was in the future, it was something of an evolution over time. At the time of our first threesome we had been together for almost 20 years, married for 10. I honesty I don't really remember the first discussion we ever had. I remember that a waitress at one of our favorite restaurants would often flirt with us fairly openly and my wife was quite turned on at the idea of us hooking up with her. I don't remember if that was before or after we first contemplated the idea of swinging. We never did hook up with that waitress though It was probably a catalyst to us considering the idea, if we had already been actively swinging we probably would have played with her. 

All of human sexuality is a broad spectrum of preferences and interest. There are couples who have virtually no sex but are very happy together as they are both satisfied with it. Then there are couples who have tons of sex, swing, have open marriages etc. and are happy with that. Both couples may be equally happy and satisfied with their relationship, different strokes for different folks.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> I think the test is if it works of the entire course of someone's life- and their children's. All is sunny and happy when you're young and the kids are little. I know of many, many 50 year plus marriages that have beautiful fruits- happy children that became good, productive, kind, charitable adults.
> 
> Based on what I've read here the swingers tend to have a "revolving door" on lovers and kids coming into their lives- and out of them. Could be wrong and don't want to single anyone out. Parenting is a lifetime commitment... don't get that sense from the swingers.
> 
> Sure it works "for THEM".... but how'd the kids fair? I'm a little concerned for them. Oh well. Threadjack complete!


I think you're describing a poly situation. Swinging is not really about having relationships with other people. I mean you might have friends you play with that become real life friends you hang out with aside from sexual situations. But it's not like you intermingle your family. If you met us in real life you would have no idea we ever did any swinging. We are your typical married couple going to lacrosse practice, dance lessons, volunteering in the PTO. 

Even with Poly couples it's not like they run around having tons of kids they never see. Most of the poly people I have known (which has not been many) have had kids it things were not much different from traditional parenting. Most of the Poly people I have known there was a primary relationship that resulted in children but the people that entered the relationship later were not considered parents. Mom and dad are still mom and dad.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

happyhusband0005 said:


> All of human sexuality is a broad spectrum of preferences and interest. There are couples who have virtually no sex but are very happy together as they are both satisfied with it. Then there are couples who have tons of sex, swing, have open marriages etc. and are happy with that. Both couples may be equally happy and satisfied with their relationship, different strokes for different folks.


Yep which is why I say unless you both agree and it happens organically and or is a mutual decision then your marriage vows should make "satisfied" immaterial. Who ever said marriage is about being "satisfied"? One of the big problems that a lot of people have is they think the marriage or their spouse is there to satisfy their needs like a concierge of their life or something. The only reason you should marry a person is because you love them enough to want to give yourself to them, not for what they give you. Now I am not saying you can't have reasonable needs, you can and should. If you are very unhappy or "unsatisfied" then by all means talk about it, but don't make the mistake of thinking that marriage or any commitment doesn't require sacrifice and having to give up things. That is not how it works, we are human beings. This is not Disney or a computer game.

You made vows, and for most of us those vows specifically said that you were NOT going to be able to satisfy your desire to have sex with other people. That was precisely the point. There is nothing subtle about "forsaking all others", nope right there in black and white. So if you want to change that after the fact then YES you are braking your vows and your kind of a ****. So many conversations about this are just straight up ******** because what I just wrote is not said. 

Like I said in my last post, if you are going to change the entire premise that the marriage was based on it's probably better to get a divorce, and to try to force it is not a moral thing to do, and you may just be kind of an asshole.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

This is an important point I alluded to in Fred’s thread but I should have made it more clear.

Discussions of this nature SHOULD NEVER BE A SURPRISE OR SHOCK. It should never be out of the blue or a 180 degree turnaround from the last discussion.

If either party is thunderstruck or blindsided, you are doing it WRONG!

These things should be a process and evolution within the relationship and never a revolution or attempted coup by an individual.

Whether you believe in nonmonogamy or not, This is an important point to make for these new posters contemplating having these discussions with their spouse. 
If they are fix’n to drop a bomb shell on their spouse out of the blue, it will blow up in their face.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Even with Poly couples it's not like they run around having tons of kids they never see. Most of the poly people I have known (which has not been many) have had kids it things were not much different from traditional parenting. Most of the Poly people I have known there was a primary relationship that resulted in children but the people that entered the relationship later were not considered parents. Mom and dad are still mom and dad.


See thing is, right now it's a very small minority of people so we don't have a good samples size but if binary marriage or whatever you call it is any guide half of the world can't even do that right, without a whole lot of suffering. Now I'm supposed to believe adding more people to the mix isn't going to make it more complicated and cause more problems? Sorry I don't buy it. Again using binary as an example once it becomes wide spread it's going to cause all kinds of problems which in and of itself isn't my issue except I am SURE I am going to end up paying for it. With taxes for just the court time alone. I personally don't think today's human being is responsible enough that we should allow them to have the option, and I hope we keep the polygamy laws on the books for that reason. I also think kids will suffer for it.

Besides I am going to continue to say it, in about 50 years no one is going to get married because we will all have our own virtual spouses with AI and robots. That have the potential to satisfy our needs. Social mores will change enough that people will think it's normal and not even think like it's not real. It will be a real and common as anything else. Like you use a car to travel long distances quickly. You have your companion AI that satisfies your social and sexual needs.

Offspring will be negotiated based on genetic diversity and potential, and at least conception will be created in a lab. This will all work much like a dowry. People will get paid to put up their genetic profile in the hopes that they will be picked and then paid to if they are. Who gets to raise them will be part of the negotiation, it might not even be the biological parents but just the person who proposes the deal.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

For that matter monogamy should not be just dropped out of the sky on anyone either. 

It should not simply be assumed or taken for granted because it is commonplace. 

Monogamy is also a process and evolution. We are not born monogamous for life. It is a conscious choice. Therefor it needs to be discussed and mutually agreed upon. 

Maintaining long term, healthy monogamy probably requires MORE open communication than ENM. 

The problem is we as a society assume it way too much. 

There is no substitute for communication and collaboration whether you are a monogamist or a nonmonogamist.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

sokillme said:


> See thing is, right now it's a very small minority of people so we don't have a good samples size but if binary marriage or whatever you call it is any guide half of the world can't even do that right, without a whole lot of suffering. Now I'm supposed to believe adding more people to the mix isn't going to make it more complicated and cause more problems? Sorry I don't buy it. Again using binary as an example once it becomes wide spread it's going to cause all kinds of problems which in and of itself isn't my issue except I am SURE I am going to end up paying for it. With taxes for just the court time alone. * I personally don't think today's human being is responsible enough that we should allow them to have the option,* *and I hope we keep the polygamy laws on the books for that reason. I also think kids will suffer for it.*
> 
> Besides I am going to continue to say it, in about 50 years no one is going to get married because we will all have our own virtual spouses with AI and robots. That have the potential to satisfy our needs. Social mores will change enough that people will think it's normal and not even think like it's not real. It will be a real and common as anything else. Like you use a car to travel long distances quickly. You have your companion AI that satisfies your social and sexual needs.
> 
> Offspring will be negotiated based on genetic diversity and potential, and at least conception will be created in a lab. This will all work much like a dowry. People will get paid to put up their genetic profile in the hopes that they will be picked and then paid to if they are. Who gets to raise them will be part of the negotiation, it might not even be the biological parents but just the person who proposes the deal.



good to know you want to regulate my personal life. 

i guess you also beleive that crappy marriages should be illegal, since they cause children to suffer. and divorces should be illegal, since they cause children to suffer. 

again, do you have any actual experience in ethical non-monogamous relationships?


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

sokillme said:


> Yep which is why I say unless you both agree and it happens organically and or is a mutual decision then your marriage vows should make "satisfied" immaterial. Who ever said marriage is about being "satisfied"? One of the big problems that a lot of people have is they think the marriage or their spouse is there to satisfy their needs like a concierge of their life or something. The only reason you should marry a person is because you love them enough to want to give yourself to them, not for what they give you. Now I am not saying you can't have reasonable needs, you can and should. If you are very unhappy or "unsatisfied" then by all means talk about it, but don't make the mistake of thinking that marriage or any commitment doesn't require sacrifice and having to give up things. That is not how it works, we are human beings. This is not Disney or a computer game.
> 
> You made vows, and for most of us those vows specifically said that you were NOT going to be able to satisfy your desire to have sex with other people. That was precisely the point. There is nothing subtle about "forsaking all others", nope right there in black and white. So if you want to change that after the fact then YES you are braking your vows and your kind of a *. So many conversations about this are just straight up ***** because what I just wrote is not said.
> 
> Like I said in my last post, if you are going to change the entire premise that the marriage was based on it's probably better to get a divorce, and to try to force it is not a moral thing to do, and you may just be kind of an asshole.


Your slant here again is focused on an individual. Which is not how successful couples approach things in any marriage. Forget a swinging couple poly couple or regular vanilla couple. Marriage is not about the individual. It is not I and me, it is us and we. If I was running around sleeping with other women for me, then that wouldn't work within the context of our relationship. What we do we do together. This is true for every successful couple I have met in the lifestyle and it's true for every non lifestyle couple I know with a good marriage. When you get married you form an equal partnership, sure you are still an individual but your actions and intentions in life should place the partnership above the individual. 

I think a lot of people with no experience or exposure to swinging or any lifestyle variation just can't comprehend that it's not about a one person getting some side action and using swinging as an excuse. That does exist but as I and others have said over and over and over, that is where the horror stories come from not the success stories. 

What you are basically saying is you made vows, (which we didn't have any specific faithfulness language in our vows but we also didn't at the time plan on any of what we have done since) and even though you have *BOTH* decided you would like to go out and have some threeways you can't because of the vows. If it is a mutual decision you are both mutually deciding to modify the agreement with mutually agreed upon terms. 

Here's something you might find impossible to believe, I have never had any urge to go out on my own and sleep with another woman. Like never, even back when we were still in college (hours away from each other) and I had ample opportunity to sleep with lots and lots of girls, never had the desire. Even one time when a girl snuck into my bedroom and hopped in bed with me, I kicked her right out, wasn't difficult, I wasn't even slightly tempted. And when my wife and I were in the midst of our swinging days she probably would have been fine with it if I wanted to have a solo experience or two, but I never wanted to, it was always together or not at all. And I have never felt like I was sacrificing anything either. I don't feel like I have had to sacrifice anything major as a married man, except my wife likes tropical vacations and I would prefer more ski vacations.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

sokillme said:


> See thing is, right now it's a very small minority of people so we don't have a good samples size but if binary marriage or whatever you call it is any guide half of the world can't even do that right, without a whole lot of suffering. Now I'm supposed to believe adding more people to the mix isn't going to make it more complicated and cause more problems? Sorry I don't buy it. Again using binary as an example once it becomes wide spread it's going to cause all kinds of problems which in and of itself isn't my issue except I am SURE I am going to end up paying for it. With taxes for just the court time alone. I personally don't think today's human being is responsible enough that we should allow them to have the option, and I hope we keep the polygamy laws on the books for that reason. I also think kids will suffer for it.
> 
> Besides I am going to continue to say it, in about 50 years no one is going to get married because we will all have our own virtual spouses with AI and robots. That have the potential to satisfy our needs. Social mores will change enough that people will think it's normal and not even think like it's not real. It will be a real and common as anything else. Like you use a car to travel long distances quickly. You have your companion AI that satisfies your social and sexual needs.
> 
> Offspring will be negotiated based on genetic diversity and potential, and at least conception will be created in a lab. This will all work much like a dowry. People will get paid to put up their genetic profile in the hopes that they will be picked and then paid to if they are. Who gets to raise them will be part of the negotiation, it might not even be the biological parents but just the person who proposes the deal.


It's all very personal, for us a poly situation isn't appealing, just not the way we're wired. For others it works for them well and they are very happy with it. Your point about half the world not being able to do "binary" marriage right is a good point. Maybe humans are not really naturally monogamous, maybe half the world are just too self centered to maintain a successful marriage, people divorce for a lot of reasons not all related to sex in anyway. 

I don't think there is a huge risks of people switching to robots for partners. The desire to mate is routed in biology I think natural instinct will continue to rule for quite some time. But I could see a sex robot becoming the toy of choice for a lot of couples me I'll stick with flesh and blood.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

I am on a forum for people who practice ethical non-monogamy, and the biggest piece of advice is to basically talk everything to death. 

They basically all agree that there is no one true way for people to conduct and structure their relationships. Because basically, we are all individuals, so our relationships will be individual to us. The main thing is that communication is pretty much required to work out complications. That doesn't change regardless of how many people there are. 

For some people, a situation where one partner goes out, dates, and has sex with others while the other doesn't is just fine. It may not sound fair to others, but its what they agreed to and they are ok with. I know a married couple in north Carolina that do this. The wife dated my wife for a little while, while she was also dating a couple men from the polyamory group. Something to keep in mind, this group met up regularly to just meet and hang out as a group. It was not a swingers party.

The couple went to the meetings together, and i can assure you, the husband was just fine with the situation. I used to sit and chat with him about all kinds of nerdy stuff for hours. If he wanted more sex, he certainly could have gotten it. He just wasn't all that interested. He did later on find out that he enjoys indulging in some people's kinks, but mainly he enjoyed pleasing others. As it turned out, he ended up being a much favored sadist/dom. He just had practically no desire to actually have sex.

Some people, like myself, just really enjoy meeting new people. I love sharing hobbies, taking part in the projects in their lives, learning and doing new things, etc. Sometimes, i form very close attachments to them. Some relationships turn sexual, some less so. 

It does happen every once in a while that i am not spending enough time with one partner. That's where the communication comes in. They let me know, and i talk about things with them and my other partners, adjust my schedules, etc. There is nothing wrong with that. If someone feels that they can't get enough of my time in order to be in a relationship with me, then it simply doesn't go past the friend stage. 

And yeah, sometimes people want to try being in a romantic relationship with me, knowing everything that entails, and they realize afterwards that it just doesn't work for them. That's fine too, we simply just go back to being friends. 

In some cases, I'll actually help them find a new partner. Introduce them to others, accompany them to places where they can meet people(I'm a huge fan of shared interest groups), vouch for their character, etc...

Some people would claim that those relationships are examples of failures. I would disagree. Relationships change as people change, and there is nothing wrong with that.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> This seems more of a function of emotional instability than an outcome of ENM...would she have had the same reaction if her husband cheated behind her back...??
> 
> And I'm not sure why you would use the expression "steal her husband from her"...is that even possible, to STEAL a partner? If someone is committed, they are committed...if they want to GO, they generally GO.
> 
> Why would she want someone with her that almost didn't want her anymore...?? That's NOT worth the fight either! She should have told him to GO and be happy, and found someone better FOR HERSELF.


These are all concerns you would have to take up with her, not me. She is good friends with my now ex wife and all I know is being in an open marriage literally almost killed her.

I don't agree with non-monogamous relationships myself but I don't care what others do. In my experience, most people are involved in non-monogamous relationships so I at least give credit to those who have the decency to warn their partner that they wanna smash other people also. I'm just saying that the law of unintended consequences comes into play.

Another thing I will mention is that people who are not open relationship swingers almost cannot be friends with people in the lifestyle. They act like religious missionaries always trying to convert you or your partner to non-monogamy.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

I want to start by saying that these are some excellent, logical thought out questions. I won't say that all your premises are the same, but I chalk that up to a lack of exposure.



sokillme said:


> I don't doubt that but my first question to that is when did you know that? Did you know that before you married a person under the grounds that you were entering a monogamous marriage,


Looking back upon my life with the knowledge I have _*now*_, I have always been non-monogamous. But back then, the term polyamory hadn't even been coined, and the concept was rare. We didn't have the internet to be able to discover and learn of these things. And even though swinging was decades old, I never heard of it until my mid 20's. This is opposed to affairs, which I had heard of, and now suspect that some incidences may have been swingers that others were disparaging. With such ignorance, I readily admit that I committed a lot of ethical violations back then, not realizing it. Now I never had an outright affair with my first wife, and there was even a point where she arranged a sexual encounter for me once, that turned out badly. And it was because I was ignorant of what was ethical and what wasn't. It is in my nature to be non-monogamous, just as it is in the nature of others to be monogamous and still others to be able to happily be in either situation. After I left my first wife (due to her having threatening the children), I gained access to two things. One was the internet, where I learned what I am, and that there are others like me and how to operate ethically within that context. The second was the woman who is now my legal wife. She knew I was fresh off my separation and divorce, and did not want me to be with her only through rebound, having regrets. _*She *_insisted that I date other people during our dating period. Inadvertently, she became my first exposure to ENM. As I grew in my knowledge, I shared with her, and we determined that we were happy with how we were living. She even found a couple of gf's I had for me (by way of suggestion, not hunting for them herself)




> because if you did you are anything but ethical. What you are is a liar who keep your nature secret as to have the best options in who you married. You aimed to trap the person you were married and then use that marriage as leverage to have more options. Nope your not ethical, just a straight up asshole. And if you think you are your full of ****. So there is that.


To couple this with the above, I agree with you that if you go into a relationship knowing that you are non-monogamous, and do not reveal it, then yes, it's non-ethical, and you're a Richard. However, it can be something that you never really discovered about your self and when realization dawns upon you, you do have to go into course correction. Even today, there are gays, men and women, who will deny their sexual orientation, subconsciously, because of their upbringing. The same can be true for those who are by nature non-monogamous. It's not being a arse to enter into a monogamous marriage if you haven't realized and come to terms with this, because you didn't really know. It _would _be unethical to not alert your partner once you discover and determine this however.



> And as far as I can tell this is the very common MO of a hell of a lot of these so called "non-monogamous" types, which is why I bring it up, and why I have such a bad taste about it. It seems it always comes up AFTER they are in a monogamous relationship, and have presented themselves as monogamous for years. I mean how many people like this tell potential mates up front at the beginning of a dating relationship, oh by the way I am "non-monogamous". Almost no one does that because it would cut their potential mating pool down by like 75%. Now if you say it up front then I have no problem, again more power too you.


 

I do for one, and I know others who practice ENM who make sure of it. One of my personal practices is that I do not enter into a relationship, emotional or physical, without confirming with the SO or SO's that they are aware and approve of the relationship. What you described is one of the reasons why people like us teach and talk about ethical non-monogamy. It is in human nature to seek companionship, but relationship skills are just that; skills. Likewise, simply being non-monogamous in nature doesn't automatically mean you will do it ethically. Skills must be learned.



> Now lets talk about swinging, I am sure there is the rare couple that can do it and do is successfully. But I also suspect that the couple that does that already establishes that early on in the relationship. What we usually get on these sites is one spouse wanting to do it way after the fact, like that recent post on here. So my question is what if you ask your mate and they don't want to? How does that work? I mean if my wife asked me that it would change my opinion of her so much I think we would be done.


This comes back to that concept of discovery and contemplation. Even if one heard about swinging or other ENM practices, if one doesn't dwell upon it, then one doesn't consider it for being part of their life. How many other things in our lives do we discover and then want to add into our lives? Actually discovering swinging, as opposed to just hearing about it, can come at any time. So it's not wrong to bring it up at a later time within a relationship. It would be wrong if the partner(s) had already expressed their rejection of it, but if nothing had been said, then it is a subject that needs to be broached. After that then evaluation of where one stands with the ENM in question and their current relationship(s) is in order.



> I mean what you are basically doing is changing the whole paradigm of the relationship. Lets think about that in other aspect of marriage that have nothing to do with sex. Lets say work. What if I came to my wife one day and said, you know what I discovered about myself, I don't like working so I am just not going to work anymore. I am "non-laborer" and need to be in a "non-laborious" relationship. Would that be cool? Would we all think that was kind of ****ed up?
> 
> What if I just decided I didn't want to bathe. "I'm non-hygienic. I feel I would be missing out if I have to bathe and if I have to continue my life just won't be the same." As someone who is very monogamous, the idea of becoming a swinger particularly being married to one is about as appealing to me as being with someone who doesn't bathe (no offense) so maybe you can understand why if my wife asked me to do that I would probably be done with her at that point.


.

Yet this occurs all of the time, paradigm relationship changes. Getting married, retiring, changing jobs, moving, starting exercise, starting diets, gaining weight, losing sex drive, increasing sex drive. And with that comes the change that the other partner will not handle that well and the relationship crumbles. As shallow as any might claim these things are, reality is they still destroy relationships. Anytime you make a change, you have to accept the consequences, positive or negative.




> So is it fair or ethical to try to renegotiate the marriage contract so radically after the fact when potentially your spouses fortune as well as their children may be in the balance? I say no it's not.


That can be said of any real change in your life, even to the point of loss of bodily functions.



> The point is, I think you better both be on the same page before you bring it up and you better have no doubts in your mind. And if you can't be sure the only ethical thing to do is sacrifice this vice you might want and don't even bring it up. No one is asking you do do anything but keep the vows you willing made. This is what adult married people do. Life is about sacrifice.


First, don't assume what those vows are. Secondly, there is way more than just sexual issues for this concept. Should I make sure that we're on the same page before I bring up skydiving? Or deep sea diving? 



> My issue with poly is just if you have a kid. Whose kid is it? What if they all divorce, who get rights, is there even laws about that, do they all get them, what if the one person doesn't want to pay to support it. Somehow I think the kid will suffer and I will end up paying for it.


Does it make a difference on whose kid it is in a step parent or adopted parent situation? That said, there are legal recourses that can place non-biological, non-legal parents into responsibilities and rights. Just nothing in the simple method of legal marriage. And in the end, you will end up not paying any more for a kid from a poly separation then from a monogamous separation.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Enigma32 said:


> Another thing I will mention is that people who are not open relationship swingers almost cannot be friends with people in the lifestyle. They act like religious missionaries always trying to convert you or your partner to non-monogamy.


This is one thing that I have never seen or heard in the community. Most people I know in the lifestyle are very secretive about it, us for example only ever played out of town meaning at least a few hours car trip away. No family or friends have any idea what we have done, except a few close friends know we have gone to a few strip clubs. The ideal of no means no is almost like the main commandment of the lifestyle bible. In most of the clubs and groups I have been a part of, being overly push even to people in the lifestyle group will get you ousted. 

I think the statement that people try to somehow convert non lifestylers is the thinking of a person who has never really known anyone who was truly part of the lifestyle, meaning has been part of a group that helped them learn the ethics and generally acceptable behaviors. Now would a lifestyle couple approaching a vanilla couple shock me no, but being all pushy and trying to convert them, that is not something that jives with the proper way of handling yourself that I have come to learn and understand over the years.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> This is one thing that I have never seen or heard in the community. Most people I know in the lifestyle are very secretive about it, us for example only ever played out of town meaning at least a few hours car trip away. No family or friends have any idea what we have done, except a few close friends know we have gone to a few strip clubs. The ideal of no means no is almost like the main commandment of the lifestyle bible. In most of the clubs and groups I have been a part of, being overly push even to people in the lifestyle group will get you ousted.
> 
> I think the statement that people try to somehow convert non lifestylers is the thinking of a person who has never really known anyone who was truly part of the lifestyle, meaning has been part of a group that helped them learn the ethics and generally acceptable behaviors. Now would a lifestyle couple approaching a vanilla couple shock me no, but being all pushy and trying to convert them, that is not something that jives with the proper way of handling yourself that I have come to learn and understand over the years.


I can only share my experiences. The couple I mentioned before, with the wife that tried to off herself, her and her husband invited my ex wife and I to their place for drinks and to just hang out. Turns out they were trying to seduce my wife and I was kinda just a package deal I guess. We passed. Another girl I used to go to high school with was in an open marriage with her husband at the time. She hit me up on social media letting me know her marriage is open and she is free to do things. Wink wink. I passed. 

Sure, maybe most of these couples are secretive about it to the general public, but when you become friends with them, they never seem to keep it a secret. If they're interested in you, it's like a cult they try to recruit people to join.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> Sorry for the thread jack. I'm not a step dad and actually don't know any. Based on my reading here though the amount of conflict, stress, and discouragement they face compared to myself makes this specific form of "ENM"- sound awful. It seems like this is the basis for the defense that ENM works. Ultimately, more power to you if you can. *There's no way I could ever share my wife or kids.* It takes everything I've got to raise my kids, keep their cars running, get them through college/trade schools, help them move/furnish apartments, keep my boat running, fridge stocked, kids fed....etc. etc. I don't think I could stand working as hard as I do while man#2 let's say would be inside enjoying the fruits of my labors, making love to _my _wife or playing games with _my _kids. Seems like resentment would always come in especially if the fruits and labors are not somehow equally shared- and in the real world this would be impossible to manage.


This is one of the key points that we often make here. It's not for everyone. We're not trying to claim that it is. We are only pointing out that it is for some people, and it can be done ethically, and maintaining faithfulness. What kills me here is this odd assumption of a lack of shared labors and rewards.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

As'laDain said:


> you are saying it is impossible to manage, but simply put, you are incorrect. i have no problem managing it.


Credit where it's due. In _this _case he did say it would be impossible _for him_ to manage. However, there has been too many trying to claim that it is impossible for all and that is simply not true.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> I think the test is if it works of the entire course of someone's life- and their children's. All is sunny and happy when you're young and the kids are little. I know of many, many 50 year plus marriages that have beautiful fruits- happy children that became good, productive, kind, charitable adults.
> 
> Based on what I've read here the swingers tend to have a "revolving door" on lovers and kids coming into their lives- and out of them. Could be wrong and don't want to single anyone out. Parenting is a lifetime commitment... don't get that sense from the swingers.
> 
> Sure it works "for THEM".... but how'd the kids fair? I'm a little concerned for them. Oh well. Threadjack complete!


So misconceptions here, and mostly between swinging and poly. When it comes to swinging, rarely are the children coming into the picture, at least for a long term or intimate manner (intimate here not being sexual). Maybe if the swinging is long term, any kids might be involved insofar as the adults doing non-sexual event together as well. I'm involved with a couple with children. We are cleaning out a lot of our stuff in preparation to move, and we gave the kids some of our, now grown, kids' toys that they didn't want any more. But we're not moving in together or making a household together. Now in poly, then the involved adults can end up as parents, if the ones involved agree to do so. You'll see this most commonly with "kitchen table" poly. And while I agree that children are a lifetime commitment, I don't hold poly parent to any higher or lower a standard that I would for a step parent monogamous situation.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

sokillme said:


> So many conversations about this are just straight up ****** because what I just wrote is not said.


Part of the problem is that such statements, whether by you or by others, are written such that there is a heavy implication that all take that vow.



> Like I said in my last post, if you are going to change the entire premise that the marriage was based on it's probably better to get a divorce, and to try to force it is not a moral thing to do, and you may just be kind of an asshole.


The premise of marriage has never been one single thing throughout human history. Marriage has occurred for procreation, politics, business, love. It has been done by choice or arrangement. It has been done between 2, 3 or more people, and even between a person and a "ghost". It has been same sex and opposite sex. There is no one purpose or premise for marriage.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Let's see....

My Aunt T and Uncle K were in an ENM marriage. It lasted 30 years and only ended because Aunt T passed away at 48 from a ruptured ulcer.

My friend J has had 3 ENM relationships I know of. His 3rd and current seems to be going well more than a decade in.

We're all pretty sure my sister and her husband are at least swingers and probably poly. It's obvious in the way they behave with certain close friends. She hints to it, but doesn't outright say it. They have 6 kids and I suspect they try to keep it under wraps for the kids. Honestly, though, the girls are all in their teens except the eldest who just turned 21 and I'm pretty sure they suspect based on some things they've said.

Annnd then I have a long list of ENM marriages/relationships that went down in very dramatic flames.

I thought about it and ENM would have worked for me in my first marriage as I wasn't in love with my ex. In my current marriage no way in Hell. I'm too territorial, possessive, and violent for that to work out.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

sokillme said:


> Now I'm supposed to believe adding more people to the mix isn't going to make it more complicated


Except that I don't recall this ever being a claim. No matter what the situation, the more people you add, the more complicated it will get.



> and cause more problems?


Just as making something more complicated doesn't automatically creates more problems, so too with relationships. It's always possible, but it's not as automatic as many of the arguments against ENM makes it out to be.



> Sorry I don't buy it. Again using binary as an example once it becomes wide spread it's going to cause all kinds of problems which in and of itself isn't my issue except I am SURE I am going to end up paying for it. With taxes for just the court time alone. I personally don't think today's human being is responsible enough that we should allow them to have the option, and I hope we keep the polygamy laws on the books for that reason. I also think kids will suffer for it.


Polygamy laws won't stop families and marriages like mine, because we do not seek to have a legal marriage between all people. I have a legal marriage with one wife, and my husband and other wife have a legal marriage between them. We live together and refer to each other as spouses. But in the end there is not a single law that can touch us, right now. Not even common law marriage. The case in Utah provided the basis to show that the government cannot impose a legal status upon us that we didn't seek, for the express purpose of prosecuting us for it.

And in the end, kids don't suffer any more from poly families than from mono families. In fact there are many cases of the kids doing better. It helps when there are more than two adults who the kids can go to in the home when there is problems. They also tend to get more attention and guidance.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> For that matter monogamy should not be just dropped out of the sky on anyone either.
> 
> It should not simply be assumed or taken for granted because it is commonplace.


I'm going to disagree. I see no issue with an assumption of straight, or monogamous or right handed, or anything else that is the most common. What is wrong is to assume that if it's not the statistically normal, then it is wrong/improper, or to not adjust accordingly when corrected.



> Monogamy is also a process and evolution. We are not born monogamous for life. It is a conscious choice. Therefor it needs to be discussed and mutually agreed upon.


Once again, I must disagree. From my experience there are people who are naturally monogamous. Even those who have been open minded enough to try poly or open, have come to conclude that they can only do monogamy. There there are people like me who can't be anything other than poly. And then there are people like my one wife, who can choice between the two as you said. I will agree that if you are a certain way, you need to make sure you tell any potential spouse prior to marriage.



> Maintaining long term, healthy monogamy probably requires MORE open communication than ENM.


Not from my experience, but it stems from the natural need of more people in a group requiring more communication to operate smoothly



> The problem is we as a society assume it way too much.


Amen, brother!


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Enigma32 said:


> Another thing I will mention is that people who are not open relationship swingers almost cannot be friends with people in the lifestyle. They act like religious missionaries always trying to convert you or your partner to non-monogamy.


This is stereotyping of the worse kind. Especially given the religious "missionaries" trying to convert us to monogamy. Most ENM people, first don't advertise that's what they are, although some, like me, don't hide it either. And very few of us try to "convert" others to our lifestyle. The one exception is maybe a previously mono person is trying to strike up a relationship with us. We have tons of monogamous friends who are aware of out poly status. For that matter, many of them are part of the local kink community. They don't play with others, they just hang out and discuss various lifestyle topics, along with mundane topics. Heck we have more geek conversations or bad dad joke competitions, than we do kink or poly conversations. But we have plenty of "vanilla" mono couple friends. We don't try to convert them to be poly or open with us.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

MJJEAN said:


> Let's see....
> 
> My Aunt T and Uncle K were in an ENM marriage. It lasted 30 years and only ended because Aunt T passed away at 48 from a ruptured ulcer.
> 
> ...


What I love about this, is that you are able to assert that poly or open is not for you, without trying to claim that those who are in ENM are being faithless or abusive or violating vows.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> I think the test is if it works of the entire course of someone's life- and their children's. All is sunny and happy when you're young and the kids are little. I know of many, many 50 year plus marriages that have beautiful fruits- happy children that became good, productive, kind, charitable adults.
> 
> Based on what I've read here the swingers tend to have a "revolving door" on lovers and kids coming into their lives- and out of them. Could be wrong and don't want to single anyone out. Parenting is a lifetime commitment... don't get that sense from the swingers.
> 
> Sure it works "for THEM".... but how'd the kids fair? I'm a little concerned for them. Oh well. Threadjack complete!


If you judge the method based on how the kids turned out, you would look at my siblings and have to judge raising kids in a Christian home with two parents who never "cheated" as a TOTAL FAILURE - they are all a mess.

It's PEOPLE who cause the dysfunction - in relationships AND with kids (and with everything) - NOT whether a couple is monogamous or not.

I ran with my tiny children (4-7yrs old) from their abusive father, and was alone for almost a full year, hiding out 1000 miles away with NO money and very few toys for them, and hardly any food (I gave them gum to chew instead of lunch for weeks). We even stayed in shelters a few times. My kids have the best memories of that time - I cried almost every night because I was so afraid of what would happen to us, but they never saw any of that, and they are completely well-adjusted, happy adults now who have NO problems in their own personal relationships.

It was NOT our family situation that did that for them - it was all ME and MY attitude with them.

Non-monogamy does NO harm to children if the adults practicing it do no harm.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

sokillme said:


> See thing is, right now it's a very small minority of people so we don't have a good samples size but *if binary marriage or whatever you call it is any guide half of the world can't even do that right, without a whole lot of suffering. Now I'm supposed to believe adding more people to the mix isn't going to make it more complicated and cause more problems?* Sorry I don't buy it. Again using binary as an example once it becomes wide spread it's going to cause all kinds of problems which in and of itself isn't my issue except I am SURE I am going to end up paying for it. With taxes for just the court time alone. I personally don't think today's human being is responsible enough that we should allow them to have the option, and I hope we keep the polygamy laws on the books for that reason. I also think kids will suffer for it.


I think it's very important to note that the main reason most marriages fail is because the needs of one or both of the partners are not being met, for any number of reasons. That is why ENM does work for the people who are committed to make it work. It's too simplistic to say that the act of adding more people to a relationship is the biggest challenge for relationships, because that's NOT the real problem. 

When ANY relationship fails, it's because of the PEOPLE in them, not because of how they define those relationships. If ENM harms a relationship, it's because of the way the people practicing it felt, or acted, or changed something, etc etc. 

Have we really forgotten that back in my mother's youth (50-60s) living together before marriage was considered HORRIBLE and immoral and the surest way to ruination for that relationship and the people in it (especially "the kids") - now most people believe that no one should get married without living together first! WHY...?? Why the change in thinking?
And how can the people decrying ENM not see the parallels?

Also, I'm pretty sure that taxes don't really pay for court time...that's why lawyers are SO expensive, and filing forms and court costs cover those other costs, don't they?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

maquiscat said:


> 1. I'm going to disagree. I see no issue with an assumption of straight, or monogamous or right handed, or anything else that is the most common.
> 
> 
> 
> 2. From my experience there are people who are naturally monogamous. Even those who have been open minded enough to try poly or open, have come to conclude that they can only do monogamy.


#1. I don’t think people are truly innately AT ALL. 

I think people are innately self-serving and possessive and do what they think will benefit them the most in the end. 

I don’t think humans are innately monogamous, I think the vast majority sacrifice their own potential sexual opportunities to secure their partner’s exclusivity to them. 

Create a situation where they will benefit from sex with another without a cost or a pitfall and they will do it.

If Jason Mamoa made s full-court press on @Diana7 and she was guaranteed to live the life of the rich and famous, she may at best give her current partner her forwarding address to send some of her stuff.

And if Megan Fox took her best shot with @CatholicDad and it wouldn’t cost him a thing and he was completely guaranteed he wouldn’t got caught, well let’s just say he probably wouldn’t be that monogamous.

Now to be fair, those are unrealistic scenarios and both Diana and CD may follow their own moral compass and values and decline ...... but their hearts would be a racing and they would be fighting the epic battle with their own demons. 

My point is our monogamy is based on largely on our options and tolerance of risk. Not because our DNA programming is that we are only attracted to and desire one person. I believe a lot of we call monogamy is actually the deal we make to secure our partner’s exclusivity and not our own sexual programming.

#2. See #1. Their cost benefit analysis determined monogamy was in their better interests at that time. If they were innately monogamous, they wouldn’t have tried open/poly in the first place. 

I speak from experience as I am kind of in that exact situation myself as a former swinger. As our swinging days were winding to a close, my cost vs benefit analysis determined it would be in my best interests to return to traditional marriage. 

But that does not mean that I consider myself innately monogamous or that I didn’t enjoy swinging or that I don’t miss it now. 

If I was naturally monogamous, I would not have considered swinging in the first place (shockingly profound statement huh? LOL 😆)

Either way you slice it, at the end of the day we make conscious decisions on our actions. 

I believe healthy and happy, long term monogamy is as much a conscious choice and requires as much communication, effort and sacrifice as does nonmonogamy.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Enigma32 said:


> Another thing I will mention is that people who are not open relationship swingers almost cannot be friends with people in the lifestyle. They act like religious missionaries always trying to convert you or your partner to non-monogamy.


False. 

That is another of one of the biggest myths and misconceptions about swinging. 

Sorry Charlie, Swingers want to get down with people that already have their act together are good to go. 

Why spend that time and effort trying to “convert” a vanilla when you could be playing with someone that is DTF?


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> #1. I don’t think people are truly innately AT ALL.
> 
> I think people are innately self-serving and possessive and do what they think will benefit them the most in the end.
> 
> ...


This will probably have to be one of those area where we agree to disagree. I will say that having both our opinions out there provides others much to think about.

But let me point out this. I did note that there are those who can be happy in either poly or mono. It might well be that you fall under that category. But I have experience with people who .have tried to be one, and found they couldn't and had to be the other. I tried monogamy, and it simply didn't work. But I didn't know I was poly until I learned about it. And just because a person is one or the other, it doesn't mean it's obvious. If you are one who can be either, you won't know that until you have tried both. And similarly, you might be monogamous, but since you aren't repulsed by the idea of poly, you might not realize it is against your nature. Trying it would be the only way to know.

We are both looking at this from different views and neither view is invalid. We just have difference experiences. Especially since you, IIRC, were only involved in the swing community and I am involved in both swing and poly.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

maquiscat said:


> What I love about this, is that you are able to assert that poly or open is not for you, without trying to claim that those who are in ENM are being faithless or abusive or violating vows.


As to the adultery/vows question I do think ENM is adultery. Adultery is defined as "voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse." So, yes, ENM is adultery. However, it is consensual adultery. If the married couple has an agreement then that's between them and not my business.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

MJJEAN said:


> As to the adultery/vows question I do think ENM is adultery. Adultery is defined as "voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse." So, yes, ENM is adultery. However, it is consensual adultery. If the married couple has an agreement then that's between them and not my business.


I have repeatedly said as much myself. There is no denying that it is adultery. Well it depends upon which definition you are using too. Legally, I am committing adultery when I have sex with the women who is not my legal wife. However, since we are viewing our poly marriage as acceptable within our religious stances ( no not Mormon), then in that aspect we are not committing adultery.

In the end though, is whether or not we are considering adultery universally bad or not. That is the problem we are having with Diane7. She is attributing her views on such, as if hers is the only possible view or the only correct view.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> Have we really forgotten that back in my mother's youth (50-60s) living together before marriage was considered HORRIBLE and immoral and the surest way to ruination for that relationship and the people in it (especially "the kids") - now most people believe that no one should get married without living together first! WHY...?? Why the change in thinking?
> And how can the people decrying ENM not see the parallels?


And let’s not forget that just one generation ago, homosexuality was one of the most egregious sins one could commit.

In the early days of AIDS, many people actually advocated for letting the disease spread through the gay community and kill them all off.

It wasn’t until it started turning up in the blood supply and some heterosexuals got it that the CDC and feds even decided to fund research and treatment at all.

Now it’s almost an in thing with the teens and 20s.

When I was 20, a straight guy couldn’t even buy a Culture Club album without his buddies being obligated to give him a beat down.

Currently homosexuality is accepted more than swinging.

We wouldn’t be having this discussion if the topic was whether homosexuality was ok or not.

Even if someone did have a moral objection to it, they probably would not be comfortable in speaking out about and we would probably be warnings from the mods about not finger pointing or being defamatory.

Currently in society nonmonogamy is still fair game.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> I think it's very important to note that the main reason most marriages fail is because the needs of one or both of the partners are not being met, for any number of reasons. That is why ENM does work for the people who are committed to make it work. It's too simplistic to say that the act of adding more people to a relationship is the biggest challenge for relationships, because that's NOT the real problem.


Marriages fail for lots of reasons, I actually feel "needs being met" is often times really one spouse excuse to be entitled. Again I am not sure where this idea came from that Marriage is about meeting your needs. That is not a healthy attitude to have. You should marry someone because you want to give yourself to them, not because they fulfill your needs. Meet your own needs. If you made a vow keep your word. Yes it's really that simple.



LisaDiane said:


> When ANY relationship fails, it's because of the PEOPLE in them, not because of how they define those relationships.


So it makes a lot of logical sense to add another person in that mix? Seems like that would only increases the chances for problems.



LisaDiane said:


> Have we really forgotten that back in my mother's youth (50-60s) living together before marriage was considered HORRIBLE and immoral and the surest way to ruination for that relationship and the people in it (especially "the kids") - now most people believe that no one should get married without living together first! WHY...?? Why the change in thinking?
> And how can the people decrying ENM not see the parallels?


Sure but so far bigamy has not become common. Maybe one day it will but I think it will cause more problems. If it does going by history I think it will be a giant **** show. 



LisaDiane said:


> Also, I'm pretty sure that taxes don't really pay for court time...that's why lawyers are SO expensive, and filing forms and court costs cover those other costs, don't they?


It sure as hell pays for the infrastructure for those things.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Enigma32 said:


> I can only share my experiences. The couple I mentioned before, with the wife that tried to off herself, her and her husband invited my ex wife and I to their place for drinks and to just hang out. Turns out they were trying to seduce my wife and I was kinda just a package deal I guess. We passed. Another girl I used to go to high school with was in an open marriage with her husband at the time. She hit me up on social media letting me know her marriage is open and she is free to do things. Wink wink. I passed.
> 
> Sure, maybe most of these couples are secretive about it to the general public, but when you become friends with them, they never seem to keep it a secret. If they're interested in you, it's like a cult they try to recruit people to join.


I'm sorry I have to be honest I don't know what these people have but it doesn't really sound like marriage to me. Not as I understand it. It holds no appeal. I get the wanting to have crazy sex with someone new, but even still for me it wouldn't be worth all the drama you just discussed. I mean going to my friends house to try to seduce his wife, an he gets to join in basically because he is there, gross.

Someone tell me how that is any different then the guy at her work trying to seduce your wife, just because they give you the courtesy to let you watch and **** his who he obviously has moved on and whose celibacy holds no value to him anyway. I would punch that dude in the face.

This is such a typical story and why I find the whole thing like people who don't bathe. Like where do you get off with that ****.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

sokillme said:


> I'm sorry I have to be honest I don't know what these people have but it doesn't really sound like marriage to me. Not as I understand it. It holds no appeal. I get the wanting to have crazy sex with someone new, but even still it won't be worth all the drama you just discussed. I mean going to my friends house to try to seduce his wife, an he gets to join in basically because her is there, gross.
> 
> Someone tell me how that is any different then the guy at work trying to seduce your wife, just because they give you the courtesy to let you watch and **** his who he obviously has moved on and whose celibacy holds no value to him anyway. I would punch that dude in the face.


My ex wife and the swinger wife were work friends. That was really all I knew at the time. I met the woman before since I used to visit my wife at work on occasion. She seemed nice and wasn't bad looking. She invited my ex wife and I over to their place for drinks and just to hang out but the ex wife said something seemed weird about the invite so we declined. As their friendship continued, we discovered that the husband thought my wife was a hottie and was basically going to try and talk us into a wife swap or something similar. 

Maybe in a huge city things are different but around here, that seems to be the modus operandi for swinger/non-monogamous couples. Befriend people and then try to talk them into joining in. After my experiences, I wouldn't be friends with anyone who was into this sort of thing. Nothing against them but I have no interest in it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> Part of the problem is that such statements, whether by you or by others, are written such that there is a heavy implication that all take that vow.


No in my example they specifically did, and that is who I am talking about. It's not like that is an uncommon vow. That is pretty much the goto vow, and I am sure most of the people who had one spouse blindside them about wanting to be swingers probably took it in good faith and expected their spouse did too. If the vow was - "Forsake all others until I feel it's necessary not to anymore" then I don't expect they would be surprised of complaining about it much.



maquiscat said:


> The premise of marriage has never been one single thing throughout human history. Marriage has occurred for procreation, politics, business, love. It has been done by choice or arrangement. It has been done between 2, 3 or more people, and even between a person and a "ghost". It has been same sex and opposite sex. There is no one purpose or premise for marriage.


True but marriage in the western world for the last 100 years has been and that is specifically what I am talking about. Again my problem isn't with people who want to have non standard marriages, my problem is people who want to change the requirements of the deal after the fact. And mostly with the ones who know it to begin with.

My other BIG problem (and it doesn't have to be about sex) is this idea that you can have it all, or that all your needs have to be met. If you think that way do everyone a favor and don't get married because life and especially marriage doesn't work like that. If anything if you get married there is a better chance that you will to sacrifice needs that if you were single would easily be met. A great example of that for most people, is sex with other people besides your spouse. If you can find someone who is cool with it, more power to you just be upfront about it is all. That is ethical.

Marriage is much more akin to learning to play an instrument, there is a lot of hard work, commitment and sacrifice involved to be able to make great music.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

sokillme said:


> Marriages fail for lots of reasons, I actually feel "needs being met" is often times really one spouse excuse to be entitled. Again I am not sure where this idea came from that Marriage is about meeting your needs. That is not a healthy attitude to have. *You should marry someone because you want to give yourself to them, not because they fulfill your needs.* Meet your own needs. If you made a vow keep your word. Yes it's really that simple.


Do you REALLY believe this? Shouldn't a relationship be about meeting eachother's needs...? I mean, especially the things we need that we aren't allowed to have met anywhere else except within that relationship?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> Let's see....
> 
> My Aunt T and Uncle K were in an ENM marriage. It lasted 30 years and only ended because Aunt T passed away at 48 from a ruptured ulcer.
> 
> ...


While I don't endorse or promote non monogamy, it isn't because I'm not capable of it.

I realized after some experience and introspection, that I could be the guy with a few wives. Not in line with any religious type of way, just practically.

I am very dominant, territorial and good at bringing income.

I'm also extremely HD to the point that I've been called a liar when I have commented on how much I can go , but I know for a fact I can keep up with more than one partner.

I'm also very good with organizing people handling multiple issues at once. 

I've also met more than a few women who were willing to share me with others while being mine exclusively.

Ultimately, I respect my God and my wife, both of which require my monogamy.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> Do you REALLY believe this? Shouldn't a relationship be about meeting eachother's needs...? I mean, especially the things we need that we aren't allowed to have met anywhere else except within that relationship?


Lets make sure we are talking about the same things.

The way I see it is there are only requirements in marriage. I require my wife to make US a priority over herself as I try to do with her. I require intimacy with my wife assuming she is healthy and able, on all levels not just physical. I require her to contribute to the marriage and work at it like I do. I require her monogamy and for her to value both mine and her own. I require her to try to be the best spouse she can be for me to a reasonable degree, that includes appearance, how she talks to me, how she conducts her life as I try to do so for her. Meaning she understands that her conduct is a reflection on not just herself but us. I require her to be thoughtful and willing to change and grow with me being mindful of me as she does so, just like I do with her. Meaning if someone offered her some new drug that may be great fun, she doesn't try it because even though it would be fun it might mess us up and we come first. Like I don't drive my sports car over 100 mph even though I could. By the way I require as much if not more of myself. Those are not needs to me but requirements. I think this is what we all go into marriage expecting and that is what marriage vows are about. That is normal and healthy it's good for both people to understand that they have requirements and they are required. I think these are valid things to ask for a divorce for if your spouse refuses or abandons these things.

Now lets talk about needs. I have a need to always be learning. I don't expect my wife to be the one to have to teach me though. I have a need to have deep conversations, about politics and science, philosophy, art, pop culture and sports. My wife can hand for maybe 25% of that with me. I don't expect her to do more then that. I have a bunch of friend, hell even posting on here does that. I have a need to listen to all kinds of music and art, to create it as well. I don't expect her to do that with me either. Frankly I expect my needs to be met by myself. I moved out of the house when I was 18, I moved to a major city alone when I was 20 on my own. Just drove there got a place, got a job and moved all on my own. I don't want anyone to fulfill my needs frankly they won't do as good a job as I will do for myself. I also have a need to eat, and I love the fact that she cooks for me, but I don't expect her to fulfill that need. I have a need to have shelter and clothing, but I have been providing that for myself since I was 18 and if she wasn't here tomorrow I would still provide that. Does she work and contribute to the money I use for that. Yes, and in a sense I require that because I require her commitment to us and that is a part of that. But again if she was gone tomorrow, that would not even be a concern because I expect of myself to meet my own needs. That is just it, I don't want anyone to fulfill my needs I take pride in doing that for myself.

I married my wife because I grew to love her and I wanted to be the man who had the honor of taking care of her. I wanted us to be partners. That's it. I knew she would make a great partner but my focus was on being the guy who took care of her. What made it easy is she made it clear that her focus was wanting to be the women who took care of me. We actually talked about this and she said just as much.

Finally lets talk about desires. (Which is where I think a whole lot of people mess up when it comes to marriage and life.) I like most people occasionally have a desire to have fun new exciting sex. I have a desire to eat fast food all the time. I have a desire to buy a 70 black Dodge Charger. I have a desire for a hell of a lot of things some good for me some not. I probably will never had most of them fulfilled. That's life and that is OK because life is much bigger then that. Somehow we have got it in our heads that we can have it all and that is just a straight up lie. No one has it all. Even the people YOU think have it all don't.

The Olympic medalist who won the gold medal and fulfilled his life long dream doesn't have it all. He has the medal but what he doesn't have is the weekends with his friend just hanging out, or the mornings to sleep in an catch those two hours of sleep we all had. Nope he used that time to train. The great Rock god who can play the guitar like breathing doesn't have it all either. He has years where everywhere he went the guitar was in his hand. He has many nights where he wasn't on the phone with girls but he had his head phones on and he played along with Jimi trying to figure out how he did that riff. Good marriage is like that. Everything great in life comes with sacrifice and risk. Marriage works the same way.

And I find a lot of these discussions work like this too. I would describe the wanting to have organism with another person besides your spouse as a desire, but for most it's not a need. Just like having a 70 all black Dodge Charger. I also don't expect my wife to fulfill that need either. Now what if I went to my wife and said, wife, you know all that money we have been saving for our retirement, I have a need to have this Charger and it's not being met so we need to use that savings because I am sure my life won't be as fulfilling if I don't get the chance to own one some day. To me this is how lots of these conversations sound when people who want to **** other people in their marriage talk about their needs aren't being met. I am not trying to put other people down, but it's just an orgasm. My answer would be "so". It's not worth breaking your spouses heart particularly if you have a pretty good marriage and your spouse tries to fulfill to a reasonable amount.

Desires don't have to to be met. Needs don't always have to be either. Often there are bigger more important things in play. If you don't get that then you are going to probably hate marriage and there is a good chance you will fail at it too.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

sokillme said:


> I require her celibacy and for her to value both mine and her own.


I didn't know you were in a voluntary, on both parts, sexless marriage. Did you both decide when you were dating that your marriage would include lifelong celibacy? What if one of you changes your mind and decides you want to experience sex with the other?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Livvie said:


> I didn't know you were in a voluntary, on both parts, sexless marriage. Did you both decide when you were dating that your marriage would include lifelong celibacy? What if one of you changes your mind and decides you want to experience sex with the other?


I meant with everyone else but me. Her celibacy for everyone else but me. It would have been better if I had said monogamy, I changed it. I was thinking in the context of an open marriage where you are celibate from others beside your spouse but your right it doesn't make sense.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> False.
> 
> That is another of one of the biggest myths and misconceptions about swinging.
> 
> ...


Lay off the "vanilla". Mrs. C and I outrank a lot of non monogamous couples.


I hate that term . Like what swingers experience is somehow spicier than what we have.

Regardless, I agree with you about swingers trying to convert monogamous couples.

I'm friends with a sharing couple and they are far more grounded, in most ways, and conservative than us.

They are also more ordinary in almost every way other than they are non monogamous.

I do think that swingers or other non monogamous folks have gotten a bad rap and a weird "public" image. Probably due to the discreet and responsible, mostly, behavior of those in alternative lifestyles. Their communication and discretion is always something I have appreciated and I don't believe they should change though it does allow for myths to rise.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I mean what you are basically doing is changing the whole paradigm of the relationship.
> .
> .
> .
> What if I came to my wife one day and said, you know what I discovered about myself, I...


What is, is.

Having been on the receiving end of a unilateral change of course apparently driven by a change in her and/or her self-awareness, I can say I most definitely prefer dealing with reality, even if the reality sucks.

The most uncomfortable parts of my situation are the challenges of knowing the truth — seeing only the shadows, and trying to deduce what she really thinks and feels. Difficulty there amplified by my own blind spots and defense mechanisms.

Whether someone can come to feel he or she is missing out on too much by staying within the monogamy-based plan agreed to years ago, that they feel the need to express this to their partner no matter what the costs — I suppose that’s possible, and wonder if it happens. It’s easier for me to imagine one reaching that degree of angst over various other things, but maybe I just am lacking in imagination at the moment.

If my wife had any desires that might require a change to our relationship, including it’s end, then I’d want her to tell me, and tell me directly with out bending the truth in an attempt to spare my feelings.

There is no joy in being less than she truly desires. There is no comfort worth believing lies.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

PieceOfSky said:


> What is, is.
> 
> Having been on the receiving end of a unilateral change of course apparently driven by a change in her and/or her self-awareness, I can say I most definitely prefer dealing with reality, even if the reality sucks.
> 
> ...


I would think everyone's spouse has desires that would require changes to the relationship all the time. Sometimes it would be massive. It's just good spouses know what ones have to be fulfilled, which ones need to be fulfilled, and which ones should not even be discussed.

On a different note I sometimes think some posters don't understand that almost all faithful spouses have the same desires to sleep with new people like they do at one time or another. Or like we don't have people that we meet that we can tell would make a good partner of a fun lay or whatever you want to call it. 

These are not special desires, they are a part of the human condition.

Most of us feel EXACTLY like you do. We just choose not to go forward.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

There is like so much stereotyping here, it's amazing.



sokillme said:


> I'm sorry I have to be honest I don't know what these people have but it doesn't really sound like marriage to me. Not as I understand it. It holds no appeal.


So first, ENM is not limited to marriage. You can be monogamous before marriage. Although it's taken so far that it seems people have forgotten that dating, at least the early stages, is about meeting various people to determine if you want to make any of them long term. 

In the same manner as your points, monogamy has no appeal for me. It doesn't make sense to me, and doesn't sound like marriage as I understand it. Yet I don't disparage monogamy. 




> I get the wanting to have crazy sex with someone new, but even still for me it wouldn't be worth all the drama you just discussed. I mean going to my friends house to try to seduce his wife, an he gets to join in basically because he is there, gross.


Within ENM, there is polyamory. Poly does not require sex between people. We have seen enough references here to emotional affairs, to know such non sexual relationships must exist. ENM includes these. Yes sex can be included within poly, it's just not an automatic.



> Someone tell me how that is any different then the guy at her work trying to seduce your wife, just because they give you the courtesy to let you watch and **** his who he obviously has moved on and whose celibacy holds no value to him anyway. I would punch that dude in the face.
> 
> This is such a typical story and why I find the whole thing like people who don't bathe. Like where do you get off with that ****.


You whole rant is contested with the idea of this happens without the consent or desire of one of the partners involved. That isn't true. It's called _ethical _ non monogamy for a reason. Because non monogamy can be done unethically as well. We don't deny that there are people who abuse the concept. What concept isn't abused at some point by someone? Basically you are taking example of the unethical behavior and saying, "see, that is why we are against what you do that has the consent and approval by everyone involved." That's the same as if we used arranged monogamous marriages as the reason that all monogamous marriages are bad.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Enigma32 said:


> My ex wife and the swinger wife were work friends. That was really all I knew at the time. I met the woman before since I used to visit my wife at work on occasion. She seemed nice and wasn't bad looking. She invited my ex wife and I over to their place for drinks and just to hang out but the ex wife said something seemed weird about the invite so we declined. As their friendship continued, we discovered that the husband thought my wife was a hottie and was basically going to try and talk us into a wife swap or something similar.
> 
> Maybe in a huge city things are different but around here, that seems to be the modus operandi for swinger/non-monogamous couples. Befriend people and then try to talk them into joining in. After my experiences, I wouldn't be friends with anyone who was into this sort of thing. Nothing against them but I have no interest in it.


Depending on details, I would call that unethical. Now if the withholding of the idea of swing or whatever was to first see if the people in question are compatible for you, that's fine. I certainly don't just jump in and tell someone I want to bed them just because their stimulated me on a physical level. But going solely by the way you described it (which is probably biased) that was unethical behavior.

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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

sokillme said:


> No in my example they specifically did, and that is who I am talking about.


If I missed that you were talking about a specific example, I apologise. However, given arguments like Diane7 typically gives, most of what we've seen here is an automatic assumption that that specific vow was taken and thus those of us engaged in ENM are in violation of that vow.



> It's not like that is an uncommon vow. That is pretty much the goto vow,


Granted on the not uncommon. It's one thing to treat as a rule of thumb, but when some here make it an automatic default, that's where we have problems.



> True but marriage in the western world for the last 100 years has been and that is specifically what I am talking about.


Appeal to tradition is a poor argument, especially given that arranged marriages were the norm in early US history, and for much of the history of the western world as a whole. So one may as well rail against people selecting their own spouses, as much as which vows need to be taken



> Again my problem isn't with people who want to have non standard marriages, my problem is people who want to change the requirements of the deal after the fact. And mostly with the ones who know it to begin with.


Which brings us back to the ethical part. The use of non ethical behavior to disparage the whole is what we are typically seeing, and why we started this thread on _ethical_ non-monogamy.



> My other BIG problem (and it doesn't have to be about sex) is this idea that you can have it all, or that all your needs have to be met. If you think that way do everyone a favor and don't get married because life and especially marriage doesn't work like that.


Except when it does work like that. Mine certainly has for over 2 decades, and I am aware of other longer ones. And I will include in that having it all category, monogamous marriages. I would say that one of the problems with today's marriage, at least for first marriages, is that people jump into them way too fast, and don't bother to check for all the compatibilities.




> Marriage is much more akin to learning to play an instrument, there is a lot of hard work, commitment and sacrifice involved to be able to make great music.


This holds true for both poly and mono. We certainly do not claim that poly is free of hard work and commitment. And in my case that means we've learned 4 part harmony.

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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

sokillme said:


> Most of us feel EXACTLY like you do. We just choose not to go forward.


I think this is where part of the problem comes in. It's not an issue that you choose not to go forward. It's when someone tells us we were wrong because we did choose to go forward, with consent and approval by all involved.

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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> On a different note I sometimes think some posters don't understand that almost all faithful spouses have the same desires to sleep with new people like they do at one time or another. Or like we don't have people that we meet that we can tell would make a good partner of a fun lay or whatever you want to call it.
> 
> These are not special desires, they are a part of the human condition.
> 
> Most of us feel EXACTLY like you do. We just choose not to go forward.


I could not have said this better myself. I agree 100% and IMHO anyone that says they have virtually no other desires is either saying that to try to make themselves look holier than thou or are trying to convince themselves. 

The challenge of every single couple on the planet is how to balance and manage those feelings and desires and attraction while still maintaining a healthy marital partnership.

The challenge is the same. But The methodology can differ from couple to couple. 

Some choose to grit their teeth and try to deny it within themselves and deny it to their partner as best they can for as long as they can and consider it as a sacrifice for the greater good of the institution of marriage and the moral imperative of monogamy in general. 

Others fully embrace it leave the door wide open with as little restriction as possible and let the chips fall as they may. 

And the other 90+% of couples fall somewhere in between on the spectrum. 

Point being here, we all have to deal with those feelings and desires and we have to deal with our partner’s feelings and desires. 

I believe that each couple should deal with that how they see fit based on their own beliefs, values and temperaments as a couple.

Others believe people should do what the Bible says.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> Most of us feel EXACTLY like you do. We just choose not to go forward.


I also want to point out that no monogamists also have the same fears, concerns and insecurities that monogamists do.

They just choose to do what they think will be best for them despite those fears. 

Of course I had concerns my wife would fall for some mythical super stud that was bigger, taller, more handsome, richer etc than me. 

But she could do that just as easily for a neighbor or a guy at the gym or a guy at work. 

We can lock ourselves away in the Bastille but if someone is gonna cheat or fall in love with someone else, there’s a million and one ways to do that before one even has lunch on a Tuesday. 

Instead of living a life of insecurity and denial and constant suppression of natural desires, we chose to acknowledge our desires and allow some latitude and have some extra fun and pleasure. 

It worked for us as a couple. 

Other couple adopt other paradigms that work for them.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Most of us feel EXACTLY like you do. We just choose not to go forward.


Are you of the opinion that this makes you morally superior to those who do?

Because it's a long walk from "i can't wrap my head around it" to "nor should you", which seems to be what these pages of text keep coming back to.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Most of us feel EXACTLY like you do. We just choose not to go forward.


You lost me on that part. How is it I feel? Go forward with what?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

sokillme said:


> Lets make sure we are talking about the same things.
> 
> The way I see it is there are only requirements in marriage. I require my wife to make US a priority over herself as I try to do with her. I require intimacy with my wife assuming she is healthy and able, on all levels not just physical. I require her to contribute to the marriage and work at it like I do. I require her monogamy and for her to value both mine and her own. I require her to try to be the best spouse she can be for me to a reasonable degree, that includes appearance, how she talks to me, how she conducts her life as I try to do so for her. Meaning she understands that her conduct is a reflection on not just herself but us. I require her to be thoughtful and willing to change and grow with me being mindful of me as she does so, just like I do with her. Meaning if someone offered her some new drug that may be great fun, she doesn't try it because even though it would be fun it might mess us up and we come first. Like I don't drive my sports car over 100 mph even though I could. By the way I require as much if not more of myself. Those are not needs to me but requirements. I think this is what we all go into marriage expecting and that is what marriage vows are about. That is normal and healthy it's good for both people to understand that they have requirements and they are required. I think these are valid things to ask for a divorce for if your spouse refuses or abandons these things.
> 
> ...


Well, what you are calling "requirements" are what I mean by "NEEDS"...I am absolutely NOT comfortable thinking in terms of requiring something from anyone I love - that's just NOT ME. I value freedom as a principle too highly to be able to think like that.

For me, requirements imply a demand on someone, and needs are about myself. So when I see something as a need for me, I take ownership of that. But if I see the same thing as a requirement, I am forcing the other person to take ownership of it...and I don't like doing that. I actually CANNOT be demanding like that. I don't feel like I have the right to require anything from anyone, especially if I love them! That has NO value to me - I only want what is given freely to me! 
I would rather let my partner know what I need and then watch to see if he wants to meet it...if he doesn't, I have to readjust my expectations, or leave him and find a new partner.

You said in your previous post...
*Marriages fail for lots of reasons, I actually feel "needs being met" is often times really one spouse excuse to be entitled. *

But based on how you framed what "requirements" are for you in marriage, aren't you also then feeling entitled within your marriage to having them upheld...? Isn't that exactly the same thing as what I was saying (just using different words), and means that what I said about having our needs met in marriage IS true for you too, then?

If your wife doesn't uphold your requirements, or you hers, then your marriage will fail...isn't that what you mean as well?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> But based on how you framed what "requirements" are for you in marriage, aren't you also then feeling entitled within your marriage to having them upheld...? Isn't that exactly the same thing as what I was saying (just using different words), and means that what I said about having our needs met in marriage IS true for you too, then?


Maybe, if you want to call my requirements - needs then I guess we are saying the same thing. I don't think I anything I am asking for is extrema, I would expect and want my partner to have the same requirements of me. To me that proves they are serious, and will hold me accountable. 

My point is most of the time when we hear cheaters talk it's always (my needs aren't being met), most of the time the needs are unreasonable, or not even communicated. Usually the cheating is about entitlement.

I also don't see requirements as demanding, I don't think my wife was surprised about this before she married me, she choose of her own free will. Not to be arrogant about it (though I suspect most here think it's too late for that) I just feel like I know my worth. I have expectations if you want to be with me. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I want my wife to feel the same way about her worth and what she expects of me. Knowing her value is high is a good thing because she will want to keep it that way, if you understand what I am saying. 

People with a very strong sense of self and self confidence (as long is it is not misplaced or arrogant) make the best partners. They are also usually very successful in life. It's one of the things that attracted me to my wife. Part of me felt like I had to step up.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> I think this is where part of the problem comes in. It's not an issue that you choose not to go forward. It's when someone tells us we were wrong because we did choose to go forward, with consent and approval by all involved.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


I think we are talking about two situations. 

Like I said before, I don't have a problem if the rules were established ahead of time. I am a live and let live guy. I also have no problem if two spouses come to the decision after the fact as long as the both do together. 

What I have a problem with is most of the time this subject comes up it's usually one spouse who wants it, blindsides the other spouse and essentially it's like a bomb going off in their life. They may pretend that its not a big deal but there are no good choices for them. Go along with it, or lose all your lifetime investment. 

Besides that for many people who cherish monogamy finding out that your spouse is actively trying to get out if it (not just having a fleeting fantasy, but conspiring to break the deal that you hold sacred) changes your marriage anyway. It may not recover. I know my wouldn't. I my wife wanted to open up my marriage I would think, well time for me to find someone who I am more compatible with because we don't think alike at all. 

I think it's possible that people in your lifestyle don't understand how cherished and sacred this stuff is to some of us. That is not a judgment, it's just an observation. Look think of it like this, some people are religious, some aren't. Often people who are NOT religious have a hard time understanding why other people are. I am not sure it can be explained, I am not sure this can be explained.

In my mind at the end of the day we are still just talking about your orgasm. I would say most of the time it's not worth blowing up the marriage and the life of the person that you profess to love, honor and partner with. I could see if you were having to be celibate completely and not just to the marriage. But if you are having sex and this is really just about some new sex I think often it's not a nice thing to do and at time unethical. Particularly if you have a pretty good idea they are not going to go for it. That's my take, you don't have to agree. 

Do I think you can "ethically" be non-monogamous in the sense that everyone knows what's going on and agrees to it so no one gets hurt, yes but I suspect you have to be very very careful. I also suspect people get hurt anyway. People get hurt in monogamous relationships, so adding others into the mix just seems like making it harder. I haven't had a lot of good experiences in my limited experience or heard a lot of them. The stories posted on this thread are pretty typical. 

I have a hard time with, hey lets hang out growing into hey how about you let me **** your wife, oh and you can **** mine too. I don't want your wife, you should respect me enough not to ask. Again I am sure not everyone is like that. If you have a club or whatever, not my issue.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

PieceOfSky said:


> You lost me on that part. How is it I feel? Go forward with what?


It feels like they really wanted it? But decided not too and now they hollier than thou?..Kind of like closeted gays preaching about sin of homosexualism?


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

sokillme said:


> I think we are talking about two situations.


We may well be. I was using your point to illustrate exactly what you point out later in this post. 



> Like I said before, I don't have a problem if the rules were established ahead of time. I am a live and let live guy. I also have no problem if two spouses come to the decision after the fact as long as the both do together.


You are not the type of person I am.holding issue with. You and I are both willing to let other make decisions we don't agree with. And we tend to put out disagreements in terms of them being our opinions. I'm taking issue with those who try to crouch their opinions as if facts.



> I think it's possible that people in your lifestyle don't understand how cherished and sacred this stuff is to some of us. That is not a judgment, it's just an observation. Look think of it like this, some people are religious, some aren't. Often people who are NOT religious have a hard time understanding why other people are. I am not sure it can be explained, I am not sure this can be explained.


That is exactly what I am talking about in the other direction. They don't want us deriding their monogamy (which is a rarity), but then want to turn around and claim as fact that we are violating vows, or are unfaithful. They are treating us as they don't want us treating them. Most of us do understand how sacred monogamy and/or marriage is to others. A cast majority of poly and open people are religious ourselves. Polys even more so as an overall, since marriage can be a part of poly, where as open/swing is only about sex. We do not deny a person seeing monogamy or marriage in any one way. We just get upset when that same respect is not reciprocated.



> In my mind at the end of the day we are still just talking about your orgasm.


Actually no we're not, unless you get specific to swinging/open. In poly, purely emotional relationships are as valid as the physical ones.



> The stories posted on this thread are pretty typical.


I am disagree with that, insofar as that more negative stories are going to end up on the forum, mono or poly. If we used this forum as a gage, even monogamy would be a very bad option, given all that happens to monogamous people.




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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

maquiscat said:


> That is exactly what I am talking about in the other direction. They don't want us deriding their monogamy (which is a rarity), but then want to turn around and claim as fact that we are violating vows, or are unfaithful. *They are treating us as they don't want us treating them.* Most of us do understand how sacred monogamy and/or marriage is to others. A cast majority of poly and open people are religious ourselves. Polys even more so as an overall, since marriage can be a part of poly, where as open/swing is only about sex. We do not deny a person seeing monogamy or marriage in any one way. *We just get upset when that same respect is not reciprocated.*


THIS!!!


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Honestly I don't really see the problem as long as parties involved are aware of the risks and reward of their choices. There are those who get involved in it to repair damaged relationships which is more of a problem due to lack of education rather than the lifestyle itself. Only thing I despise is dishonesty, so when two or more people get together for a nice orgy or have a poly relationship where there is mutual trust and respect I have nothing against it nor do I think anyone should.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

This thread is only about 3 month old from last post. Mods, if you feel that is too long, please shut this down.

I highly recommend everyone read previous posts if you are just joining.

@GC1234 @Skruddgemire 

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

maquiscat said:


> This thread is only about 3 month old from last post. Mods, if you feel that is too long, please shut this down.
> 
> I highly recommend everyone read previous posts if you are just joining.
> 
> ...


@C.C. says ...


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

maquiscat said:


> This thread is only about 3 month old from last post. Mods, if you feel that is too long, please shut this down.
> 
> I highly recommend everyone read previous posts if you are just joining.
> 
> ...


Ok, so now how does this work? How did you even figure out that you all were in to this lifestyle? And how is there no jealousy at play?


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## Skruddgemire (Mar 10, 2021)

GC1234 said:


> Ok, so now how does this work? How did you even figure out that you all were in to this lifestyle? And how is there no jealousy at play?


I’m going to use a few terms to keep things clear and so I don’t have to keep typing stuff. When I refer to “my wife” I’m talking about my legal wife and when I say “his wife” I’m referring to Maquiscat’s legal wife. 

Though we all refer to each other as “our husbands and our wives”

Naturally I have sex with my wife and he has sex with his. His wife isn’t ready to have sex with anyone else apart from Maquiscat. Maquiscat and I aren’t even remotely interested in homosexual activities. My wife and Maquiscat do occasionally have sex with each other (usually when I’m away at work and he has a day/afternoon off).

How we found out about it? I think Maq and his wife were open about the possibility since they (like me and my wife) have open relationships. For us...we had an open relationship (as mentioned in my intro post) but had never thought of the possibility. 

When we were living together and I was getting back on my feet...we just grew closer. When our friend knocked our heads together and say “TALK!” One of the things we noticed is that we didn’t have a roommate style relationship, we had a level more like a family.

So it developed from there. 

As to why there’s no jealousy? The fact that both couples had open relationships, that never developed. Everything is out in the open. No matter who does what and with whom, all our needs are met and so it’s all good. I don’t really understand why we aren’t jealous, but we’re just not and are fine with it.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

Skruddgemire said:


> I’m going to use a few terms to keep things clear and so I don’t have to keep typing stuff. When I refer to “my wife” I’m talking about my legal wife and when I say “his wife” I’m referring to Maquiscat’s legal wife.
> 
> Though we all refer to each other as “our husbands and our wives”
> 
> ...


Wow, that's really interesting. And hard to believe that there could be no jealousy. But I guess it works. So if Maquiscat's legal wife decides she wants to have sex with you, he will be fine with it?

Also, do the women have their own liasons together? And does Maquiscat have encounters with his wife and your wife? As in all three of them together? 

Are you present in any of these scenarios?

I'm sorry, but it's rare to non-existent to talk about stuff like this, at least for me. So thank you for speaking about it so candidly.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

GC1234 said:


> Wow, that's really interesting. And hard to believe that there could be no jealousy. But I guess it works. So if Maquiscat's legal wife decides she wants to have sex with you, he will be fine with it?
> 
> Also, do the women have their own liasons together? And does Maquiscat have encounters with his wife and your wife? As in all three of them together?
> 
> ...


You're fine. If you ever get too personal, we will politely let you or anyone else know.

Yes, should Skruddge and D (my legal wife) ever decide they want to be sexual in anyway, I am fine with that. As long as they aren't going to try to do it in the bed I'm trying to sleep in. 

Like us guys, D is not sexually interested in women, so the two ladies are not sexually involved. K (his legal wife) is heteroflexable. If she knows the woman well enough she enjoys sexual activity with them. She is willing with D, but respects D's feelings, and doesn't try for anything beyond the emotional love we have for one another. 

As far as the threesome is concerned, the willingness is there, but opportunity and space are not. We're working on that. 

For the most part, sex is one on one situations. So rarely is anyone else present in the room when it happens. We have occasionally engaged in BDSM activities while in the same room, mostly at plays spaces (again a lack of decent room in the current house), but not sex.

And to add to something my husband said, the interactions of K and I are limited due to that space. Currently we sleep as the legal couples. There is no available third bedroom, so her and I just wait for opportunities, or make arrangements for a weekend at a hotel. Again, working on that.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

maquiscat said:


> You're fine. If you ever get too personal, we will politely let you or anyone else know.
> 
> Yes, should Skruddge and D (my legal wife) ever decide they want to be sexual in anyway, I am fine with that. As long as they aren't going to try to do it in the bed I'm trying to sleep in.
> 
> ...


Very interesting. Thank you for sharing. If it's something that works well and makes you happy, and clearly you are all mature enough to handle the emotional aspect of it, I think that's great.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

GC1234 said:


> Ok, so now how does this work? How did you even figure out that you all were in to this lifestyle? And how is there no jealousy at play?


Jealousy does occur in poly units, and for a wide variety of reasons. I consider us very lucky in the way it turned out. If there is ever another person who come into our group, that issue might raise it's head.

But jealousy within poly really isn't much different than within monogamy, save maybe with sex. Even in monogamy, couples can be jealous of others that their partner is spending time with, even if there isn't an affair going on.

For issues of jealousy, I highly recommend looking up the Touch of Flavor podcast that specifically deals with the topic.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

maquiscat said:


> For issues of jealousy, I highly recommend looking up the Touch of Flavor podcast that specifically deals with the topic.


Thank you for this. I am not really jealous now, after I had my kids I've changed completely and mellowed out. I mean unless it was absolutely warranted; but I'm open to listening to it. Does the podcast apply for poly, or for anyone in a relationship?


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

GC1234 said:


> Thank you for this. I am not really jealous now, after I had my kids I've changed completely and mellowed out. I mean unless it was absolutely warranted; but I'm open to listening to it. Does the podcast apply for poly, or for anyone in a relationship?


I was looking at it more information oriented, as opposed to being advice you needed now. Also, since writing that post I have noticed their latest podcast is also focusing a bit on jealousy, although I've not listened to it yet.

Touch of Flavor targets kink and ENM people, but their relationship advice for the most part works well for both mono and poly.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

maquiscat said:


> I was looking at it more information oriented, as opposed to being advice you needed now.


Thank you. I didn't want you to think I took it that way. But in either case, I will check in out. Thank you again!


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## C.C. says ... (Aug 1, 2020)

Skruddgemire said:


> Naturally I have sex with my wife and he has sex with his. His wife isn’t ready to have sex with anyone else apart from Maquiscat. Maquiscat and I aren’t even remotely interested in homosexual activities. My wife and Maquiscat do occasionally have sex with each other (usually when I’m away at work and he has a day/afternoon off


So what I’m getting is that this isn’t all about sex. It’s not like a big old orgy every night. This is more about all of you being friends and handling the household as friends, with each person contributing to the family and sometimes sex happens between some of you. Although there must be one hell of a bromance/friendship there for marquiscat to get to have sex with your wife but you don’t have sex with his.

Most of my questions were more along the lines of -as a man, which was better to have sex with, a man or a woman, but that doesn’t apply in this instance so I can’t. 

I almost found myself in this kind of family once at the urging of my best female friend at the time. It sounded good in theory, but the second her husband said I love you to me, she decided that was crossing a line. I didn’t understand that, so I ended up pretty hurt. Made me think she wanted me there solely as a plaything for the two of them, whereas I wanted the whole family aspect and love too. _edited tmi here lol_

Do you all tell each other you love each other?

Do you feel committed to one another or is the main commitment reserved for your legal wives? (Although I don’t really know what I mean by that in this situation).

Are you only in love with your legal wives? Would that be crossing a line to be in love with someone else in the house?


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

C.C. says ... said:


> Do you all tell each other you love each other?


That's a great question I did not think to ask.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

C.C. says ... said:


> So what I’m getting is that this isn’t all about sex. It’s not like a big old orgy every night. This is more about all of you being friends and handling the household as friends, with each person contributing to the family and sometimes sex happens between some of you. Although there must be one hell of a bromance/friendship there for marquiscat to get to have sex with your wife but you don’t have sex with his.


Unless you are going to view a monogamous marriage as the two people being friends, then that is incorrect. We are spouses. We have that level of relationship emotionally speaking. The lack of sex between D and Skruddge is a matter of choice between them. There is no limiting by myself of K to stop them from bedding each other. And no, our marriage is no more about sex all the time than a monogamous marriage is about sex all the time. Typically if one is talking about polyamory, or polygamy (and it's subsets) then they are referring to relationships, of which sex may or may not be a part of it. If the relationship is only about sex then that is typically called open or swinging.



> Most of my questions were more along the lines of -as a man, which was better to have sex with, a man or a woman, but that doesn’t apply in this instance so I can’t.


Closest I can come is I had a transwoman girlfriend for a little bit. But she moved out of the area for a great job opportunity, before we got too far. At best we only got to some light groping. It was a learning experience for me and I didn't really get too far. However, with what experience I did have, I would have to say that there is no better per se. Different for sure, but I don't feel either sex or gender would be better as a whole. Individuals might be better or worse for my personal experience, but nothing so broad as sex or gender.



> I almost found myself in this kind of family once at the urging of my best female friend at the time. It sounded good in theory, but the second her husband said I love you to me, she decided that was crossing a line. I didn’t understand that, so I ended up pretty hurt. Made me think she wanted me there solely as a plaything for the two of them, whereas I wanted the whole family aspect and love too. _edited tmi here lol_




Sadly this is not uncommon. It mostly stems from people not really knowing what they want and what they can handle. It also stems from a lack of skill in communication. There are also cases where people think that this will solve some kinds of marital problems. It won't. And if the relationship is initially intended to be play or sex, there is always the risk that feeling will develop.



> Do you all tell each other you love each other?


Yes. And in all honesty, Skruddge do not say it as much as we might like to each other. Just because we recognize it is from the influence of our childhoods (*many *of which we have obviously overcome), it doesn't mean that it is easy to overcome.



> Do you feel committed to one another or is the main commitment reserved for your legal wives? (Although I don’t really know what I mean by that in this situation).


We are each committed to the other three. If K were to pass, D and I wouldn't be sending Skruddge away. Make any other combination there and it will be the same.



> Are you only in love with your legal wives? Would that be crossing a line to be in love with someone else in the house?


We are in love with each other. It's not limited to our legal spouses. And it does go beyond just basic family love. I'll put it this way. We have never pushed the idea of us being spouses upon my parents. Of course they knew we were living together and the initial premise of two empty nester couples merging households for financial reasons, was kept for convenience sake for those not in the know. Mom shortly started introducing them as her son and daughter in law. We figured that she just did that because she honestly loved them like her own children, so that was the easiest thing to call them. What I didn't know was that my mom was way more perceptive and accepting than we expected. One day she was talking about K and said, "Speaking of your wife, or should I say your other wife....". She saw what we were, and accepted it fully.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Most importantly though, who holds the TV remote control?


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## Skruddgemire (Mar 10, 2021)

heartsbeating said:


> Most importantly though, who holds the TV remote control?


Well when our old Roku TV died and we bought another one AND discovered that they BOTH work on the new TV...it does make for some interesting Remote Wars.

Seriously though, control of the TV tends to go to whoever wants to use the TV when no one else is using it. For example, if no one else is watching and I need something to listen to while working on my hobbies, I'll throw in some disaster porn (Air Craft Investigations). When Maq comes home and has done whatever he wants to do on his laptop, he might come in and ask "Mind if I play the XBox?" after one of the episodes is over. K will watch TV when everyone else has gone to bed and D will generally watch what I'm watching since she and I share an interest in documentaries...though she will occasionally will decide to watch something that she wants to. 

But beyond that there are things we enjoy watching together and we will decide as a family to watch that. 

Such as our Friday Night "WandaVision", the DC Animated Harley Quinn series, or whatever new movie comes out that catches our eye.


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## Skruddgemire (Mar 10, 2021)

Oh and to explain "Disaster porn"...it was a phrase K's High-School Aged children coined when they were being sarcastic. 

I had been binge watching "Air Crash Investigations" and "Seconds From Disaster" for weeks and when we were playing boardgames together, the TV was on and they had just announced a new episode of "ACI" and one of them (the youngest I think) said "Oh look! It's Skruddgemire's disaster porn!"

I fired up my most creepy pervert voice and said "Oooooh yeaaah! Crash sexy fer daddy" while making the masturbation gesture. 

I swear that was the moment you could see their little brains breaking. Never teased me for my TV preferences after that. 

I wonder why?


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## Skruddgemire (Mar 10, 2021)

maquiscat said:


> Yes, should Skruddge and D (my legal wife) ever decide they want to be sexual in anyway, I am fine with that. As long as they aren't going to try to do it in the bed I'm trying to sleep in.


Don't worry. I've heard you snore. That would SERIOUSLY throw me off my stroke.


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## C.C. says ... (Aug 1, 2020)

maquiscat said:


> Unless you are going to view a monogamous marriage as the two people being friends, then that is incorrect. We are spouses. We have that level of relationship emotionally speaking. The lack of sex between D and Skruddge is a matter of choice between them. There is no limiting by myself of K to stop them from bedding each other. And no, our marriage is no more about sex all the time than a monogamous marriage is about sex all the time. Typically if one is talking about polyamory, or polygamy (and it's subsets) then they are referring to relationships, of which sex may or may not be a part of it. If the relationship is only about sex then that is typically called open or swinging.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for your in depth reply. I think I understand it. Yes, of course you’re right. It’s love. Not friendship. I’m looking forward to hearing more from you and @Skruddgemire 

Like I said, it’s just always been really interesting to me. Thanks again. 🙂


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

C.C. says ... said:


> Thank you so much for your in depth reply. I think I understand it. Yes, of course you’re right. It’s love. Not friendship. I’m looking forward to hearing more from you and @Skruddgemire
> 
> Like I said, it’s just always been really interesting to me. Thanks again.


We enjoy helping others learn. It's part of who we are. We teach classes (highly informal types of classes) on poly and BDSM (we won't go into that unless asked and even then only within the limits of the rules.), as well as some basics of other, for lack of a better term, "alternate lifestyles". 

As poly we are already having to overcome negative images done by abusers among the FLDS and the fundamentalist Islamic sects. So we are always glad to help others learn and to dispell myths, even any that paint the lifestyle as unicorns and rainbows.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## C.C. says ... (Aug 1, 2020)

maquiscat said:


> BDSM


🤤


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

C.C. says ... said:


> 🤤


Yeah. misinformation is big in that area. I titled my 101 class "50 Shades of Reality"


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

It's alive!

I'm glad to see this discussion continue!

One of these days, when I retire, i want to find a way to live with my partners, if possible. Unfortunately, at the moment, i am about a six hour drive from all of them. Despite that, my relationships are probably more complicated than @maquiscat and @Skruddgemire's relationships are...

I am a bit of a relationship anarchist. I am in an intimate relationship with my wife @Akinaura, my boyfriend, and my girlfriend. I also have a thing going on with a couple other people... But i wouldn't quite say they are life partners yet. Not sure what to describe those relationships as, but it doesn't really matter. They are important to me.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Not that this is particularly germane to the subject at hand but i was curious how the word love is tossed around either between two men not in a romantic relationship or between couples, and it harpers back to a discussion i had with someone else in how limiting at times the english language can be when discussing a word like love...for a culture who puts so much emphasize in love, we only have one word to describe love between individuals, friends, couple, parents, etc...but the greeks had 8 words for love ( Eros, Philia, Agape, Storage, Mania, Ludus, Pragma, and Philautia), so for example i can see that Maquicat has a Philia feelings for Skrudd, as opposed the love he has for his wife which is more like Eros...just food for thought


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Lostinthought61 said:


> Not that this is particularly germane to the subject at hand but i was curious how the word love is tossed around either between two men not in a romantic relationship or between couples, and it harpers back to a discussion i had with someone else in how limiting at times the english language can be when discussing a word like love...for a culture who puts so much emphasize in love, we only have one word to describe love between individuals, friends, couple, parents, etc...but the greeks had 8 words for love ( Eros, Philia, Agape, Storage, Mania, Ludus, Pragma, and Philautia), so for example i can see that Maquicat has a Philia feelings for Skrudd, as opposed the love he has for his wife which is more like Eros...just food for thought


I would have to question your application of the types, although I readily agree that the use of "love" in the English language has an extremely wide range.

Eros refers to both romantic and sexual love, but I do not see where they have to be one in the same. Certainly we have seen where sexual eros is in play without romantic eros being present. There is no reason why the opposite cannot be true. I will grant that both typically occur together. And as poi t of order, we have both noted the romantic love between all 4 of us, even if the sexual love isn't present between us all.

I also would say that in a marriage, both storge and pragma love are a vital part of the long term relationship. If only eros (either or both forms) is present, then a marriage will not last.

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## jjwilson3320 (Mar 24, 2021)

As'laDain said:


> The good, the bad, the ugly. This is a place for discussing things that have worked, things that have not, horror stories, success stories, etc.
> 
> I specifically don't want to talk about whether or not it's moral or ethical. I would like this to be a place for people who practice ENM to share advice and tell their stories, and a place for people who are considering it to get advice from people who actually have experience with it, whether they be good or bad.
> 
> If you have had bad experiences with it, feel free to put them here. Likewise if you have had positive experiences. Hopefully, we can get enough experiences in one thread to give people with no experience with ENM an objective look at what it actually looks like in real life for real people.


I think a lot of people are missing some insight regarding NEM. I grew up enjoying sexual play with boys and girls. I was turned on by an older guy to just mutual masturbation. It continued through my first marriage, undercover, un-ethically. Fast forward 35 years and Craigslist helps many married men meet others for the simple joy of mutual masturbation. A typical guy spends 45 minutes and they are gone. Now, the same FWB is known by my wife and she has engaged with another woman as well. We found a couple and we no longer seek out strangers. We are happy and contented. .


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LoL. It only works if it is outliers and fringe.

Mainstream this idea and the society that adopts it soon disappears.

That's historical fact.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> LoL. It only works if it is outliers and fringe.
> 
> Mainstream this idea and the society that adopts it soon disappears.
> 
> That's historical fact.


Not really. There is a culture is Asia that has been practicing polyandry for generations, and they're still around.

Also, mainstreaming an idea doesn't automatically mean that the practice is statistically commonplace. LGB is pretty mainstream right now, but still is only about 5% of the population. There is no reason to assume the ENM would not have similar results.

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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

If you don’t mind me asking - how is romantic love expressed between you without physical and sexual / sensual expression? I’m admittedly intrigued by your relationship. Despite not being able to wrap my head around it. I’ve thought of a close friend or two who are more like sisters to me. There’s a deep bond there and we express love and a knowing of having each other’s back, yet I wouldnt want them sleeping with my husband or encroaching on our dynamic (or me with their spouses). Please understand this is not a critique of your love and choices, rather I’ve tried to position in my mind and perhaps constrained from my world view, to understand ...and then I come back to the initial question above.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I could not have said this better myself. I agree 100% and IMHO anyone that says they have virtually no other desires is either saying that to try to make themselves look holier than thou or are trying to convince themselves.
> 
> The challenge of every single couple on the planet is how to balance and manage those feelings and desires and attraction while still maintaining a healthy marital partnership.
> 
> ...


I honestly have no interest in having sex with anyone but my husband and thats regardless of what the Bible says. For me love, committment and sex go together hand in hand. Sex with no love or committment for me would pointless, empty and meaningless.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Skruddgemire said:


> I’m going to use a few terms to keep things clear and so I don’t have to keep typing stuff. When I refer to “my wife” I’m talking about my legal wife and when I say “his wife” I’m referring to Maquiscat’s legal wife.
> 
> Though we all refer to each other as “our husbands and our wives”
> 
> ...


So his wife is faithful to him, you are faithful to your wife, but he and your wife arent faithful to their spouses. So for you and his wife what is the point if you arent having sex with others?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> So his wife is faithful to him, you are faithful to your wife, but he and your wife arent faithful to their spouses. So for you and his wife what is the point if you arent having sex with others?


Another relationship that needs a bloody flowchart.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

heartsbeating said:


> If you don’t mind me asking - how is romantic love expressed between you without physical and sexual / sensual expression? I’m admittedly intrigued by your relationship. Despite not being able to wrap my head around it. I’ve thought of a close friend or two who are more like sisters to me. There’s a deep bond there and we express love and a knowing of having each other’s back, yet I wouldnt want them sleeping with my husband or encroaching on our dynamic (or me with their spouses). Please understand this is not a critique of your love and choices, rather I’ve tried to position in my mind and perhaps constrained from my world view, to understand ...and then I come back to the initial question above.


I would say that the first thing to keep in mind is that there is no one true way to express love, of any variety. I guess the best way to describe my husband and I, is to point to some older couples. While some are indeed still lovey dovey (does anyone else still use that expression?), others you never really see them kiss or hold hands or anything else that we stereotypically associate with romantic love. But they still love each other deeply and have a very strong marriage. Skruddge and I hug, hang out together, we're comfortable enough we'd probably could be cuddle up on the couch together (if we had a couch), and certainly are not body shy around each other.

And I very much agree that it is a hard concept to work around. I know it took me years to settle it in my head, and I was going through it a few times.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Blondilocks said:


> Another relationship that needs a bloody flowchart.


If anyone's relationships need a flow chart, it would be mine. I am married to my wife. My wife is also dating another guy who is married. I am also dating a guy who has a pregnant fiance, and he is also dating my wife. I am also dating two other women, one that is married to a woman, the other is just dating me and has no other partners. I also have a long distance thing going on with another woman... Not sure if i would call that dating yet, but she is very much interested. 

I also have a fairly intimate relationship with one of my neighbors and his boyfriend. 

So, wife, two (or three?) girlfriends, two boyfriend's. 

You would think that i am spending all my time having sex, but that's not the case. Plenty of cuddles though.

The relationships are not all the same, and i don't try to make them the same. I am basically a relationship anarchist. I prefer to let relationships evolve and go where they seem to want to go. I do not put people or relationships in a box. 

And i never go looking for a partner. Everyone i am involved with are people i met either in real life or through shared interest groups. I generally get to know someone for at least a couple months before i get romantically involved with them.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> I honestly have no interest in having sex with anyone but my husband and thats regardless of what the Bible says. For me love, committment and sex go together hand in hand. Sex with no love or committment for me would pointless, empty and meaningless.


Which is all well and good for you and others like you, which, admittedly, will be the majority of people in the world. While all individuals are capable of falling in love with more than one person at a time, relatively few are capable of having multiple intimate relationships at the same time. There is no one here that has an issue with that. But there are still plenty of people for whom poly and open work, and we don't deserve to be looked down upon or told we are wrong, any more than you do by another religion for your religions choice.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> So his wife is faithful to him, you are faithful to your wife, but he and your wife arent faithful to their spouses. So for you and his wife what is the point if you arent having sex with others?


We are all faithful to each other, regardless of what standard you want to try to impose. We are each other's spouses, done and over. Unless you think that your marriage can never be legitimate before your God without a government piece of paper, I would think that you would understand that legality has nothing to do with a marriage.

But ask yourself these questions. Is there a point to a marriage if one or both spouses are paralyzed from the waist down (assume non functioning or feeling sex organs for the questions) or even quadriplegic, since they can't have sex? Can't two asexuals who possess no sex drive be married and hold a strong marriage? Does a lack of sex, assuming that all parties involved are agreeable with it, mean a marriage no longer exists?

My point here is that while sex is a common factor in most marriages, it is not a requirement, any more than having children is a requirement for a marriage. Sex is not the point of a marriage, and any such focus on sex, completely ignores the basis of marriage.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> We are all faithful to each other, regardless of what standard you want to try to impose. We are each other's spouses, done and over. Unless you think that your marriage can never be legitimate before your God without a government piece of paper, I would think that you would understand that legality has nothing to do with a marriage.
> 
> But ask yourself these questions. Is there a point to a marriage if one or both spouses are paralyzed from the waist down (assume non functioning or feeling sex organs for the questions) or even quadriplegic, since they can't have sex? Can't two asexuals who possess no sex drive be married and hold a strong marriage? Does a lack of sex, assuming that all parties involved are agreeable with it, mean a marriage no longer exists?
> 
> My point here is that while sex is a common factor in most marriages, it is not a requirement, any more than having children is a requirement for a marriage. Sex is not the point of a marriage, and any such focus on sex, completely ignores the basis of marriage.


I was hoping he would answer being that he is one of the ones who is actually faithful.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> I was hoping he would answer being that he is one of the ones who is actually faithful.


He probably will when he gets home from work.

I do notice however, that you completely avoided the questions.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> I was hoping he would answer being that he is one of the ones who is actually faithful.


Who isn't being faithful? Nobody is breaking any promises, nobody is deceiving anyone. They are all faithful to each other.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> He probably will when he gets home from work.
> 
> I do notice however, that you completely avoided the questions.


If my husband was paralysed I would still stay with him of course, but in your case it seems one sided.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> Who isn't being faithful? Nobody is breaking any promises, nobody is deceiving anyone. They are all faithful to each other.


Well they are breaking their marriage vows and they are still committing adultery.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> Well they are breaking their marriage vows and they are still committing adultery.


What exactly were their vows? Since you seem to know them. 

And how do you commit adultery by having sex with your spouse? 

You could argue that i am committing adultery, but they are married.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Well they are breaking their marriage vows and they are still committing adultery.


How many times must you be told that no vows are broken? Your assumption of what vows we took are in error. We are not obligated to take any vows yet alone the ones you feel are required.

As to adultery, if you are looking at legal marriage only, then yes, adultery is occurring. Yet there is still no automatic negative to that fact. If you are looking at our marriage in the truer spiritual form, then no it is not happening, since we are all spouses with each other. The sex is within the marriage, therefore by definition, no adultery.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> What exactly were their vows? Since you seem to know them.
> 
> And how do you commit adultery by having sex with your spouse?
> 
> You could argue that i am committing adultery, but they are married.


Two married 

couples are there, they are not all married they just call themselves married.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> Two married
> 
> couples are there, they are not all married they just call themselves married.


Ah. So you are going to use the exact same argument that was used to throw interracial couples in jail. 

Cuz, you know, they aren't really married. They just CALL themselves married.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Two married
> 
> couples are there, they are not all married they just call themselves married.


So exactly who made you the judge of what a marriage is and isn't.

And before you try to pull the God card, the Goddess disagrees. You don't get to impose your religion's definition of marriage onto others. Same point goes for government. You can't claim God if you're going to claim government defines it.

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## NotEZ (Sep 23, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> Well they are breaking their marriage vows and they are still committing adultery.


If you dont agree with their right to CHOOSE the life and marriage(s) they want for themselves, what are you even doing in this thread??

Just scroll past. Your way is YOUR way. Their way is THEIR way. There is no "right" way to have a relationship. All that matters is that everyone in said relationship agrees to it and willingly CHOOSES it. 


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## Skruddgemire (Mar 10, 2021)

I was hoping he would answer being that he is one of the ones who is actually faithful.
[/QUOTE]

First of all, assuming that I’m faithful (by your apparent definition) is a bit of a stretch. As we’re members of the local kink community, I’ve done activities with others at events. Not actual penis penetration, but kinky activities involving unclad females nonetheless. And I’ve also seen a co-worker’s breasts. As in she showed them to me. 

Now in each and every case, my legal spouse (K) and my poly spouses were informed of what happened and why and were not upset by it. In fact when I told K that I saw a co-worker’s hooters, she simply rolled her eyes and said “That’s nice”.

Kinda disappointing really since I was hoping to get the “Rolled Eyes” and the “Ok, what’s the story behind this” since it was an amusing anecdote.

So painting me as the token faithful (by your definition) isn’t really accurate. 

As for why I haven’t replied before, forgive me, I was at work (lucky stiff of a husband got the day off) and when I got home I was suffering from a combination of heat stress and the aftereffects of the Covid Vaccine. Just wasn’t into it. 

I’m at work again today and I’ll reply further when I can.


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## Skruddgemire (Mar 10, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> So his wife is faithful to him, you are faithful to your wife, but he and your wife arent faithful to their spouses. So for you and his wife what is the point if you arent having sex with others?


Marriage isn't just about sex. There are plenty of examples out there where people get married...traditionally married...where sex isn't an issue. A marriage of one or both participants for whom sex is impossible, a marriage between an elderly couple for whom the sex drive has long since diminished into fond memories, etc.



Diana7 said:


> Well they are breaking their marriage vows and they are still committing adultery.


Adultery is gradually no longer being considered a criminal act. At this time there are only 17 states that have it as a criminal law and none of them actively pursue it in the criminal courts. And in our case...the state we live in does not have any such laws on the books.

Generally, it's considered to be a civil matter and leverage for the divorce courts and alimony decisions.

So if Adultery isn't a criminal act in our state, it could be argued that legally, we are not committing it even though by technical definition we are.

And an interesting thing about vows. They're not permanent, carved in stone sorts of things. They can be dissolved at the mutual contrivance of all parties involved. No-Fault divorces for example. A no-fault divorce technically is a violation of the vows of "to love and to cherish, in sickness and in health...etc, etc...till death do you part". There are many reasons why people get no-fault divorces. People grow apart, they were too young when they got married, got married for the wrong reasons etc and so on.

Those two people look at each other and agree to dissolve the vow and go their separate ways.

So if that part of the marriage vows can be dissolved by mutual agreement, why not others? If a group of people all decide to join into a single family and want to consider themselves married to each other and don't care who in the group shags whom...it's not a problem. And while I don't have sexual relations with Maq's wife (D), if we wanted to we could. But even still...we're body comfortable around each other and she often takes advantage of my ability to find muscle knots and work them loose. Meaning I've had my hands on her naked body quite a number of times.

Then too, we're likely of different religions. Judging by your signature line and the viewpoint from which you are debating, I'd guess that you're Christian. Well my wife and I are Pagan and so we had different vows. Ours was a quick Justice of the Peace marriage and what they did for us since we were Pagan wasn't much more than a Spaceballs-ish "Do you? Yes. Do you? Yes. Good! You're married. Kiss her." If memory serves it was more on the lines of "Do you [name] wish to enter into a state of marriage with this [person]? said to each of us followed by something to the effect of "By the laws of the state of [state] and the county of [county], I now pronounce you husband and wife."

So...what vow did we violate?

And a final note, what difference does it make? We're happy with how things are and we're not hurting anyone. We're not even violating any laws. As far as legality is concerned, we're two legally married couples who cohabitate for mutual financial benefit. And since adultery isn't a criminal act in our state...It's all good. Hell even our families have accepted the state of things. Our parents accept it to differing degrees. One set calls us a bunch of hippies, two just accept it as how things are, and Maq's mom all but freaking adopted us. Even to the point of introducing K and I as her adopted children. Our children (from both couples) accept it and all the grandkids are enjoying the fact that there are four grandparents to spoil them rotten.


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