# Today’s Problem With Masculinity Isn’t What You Think



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

*Today’s Problem With Masculinity Isn’t What You Think

A former soldier explains the emotional vacancy of “the fatherless generation”*

“Men are so quick to blame the gods: they say
that we devise their misery. But they
themselves — in their depravity — design
grief greater than the griefs that fate assigns.”

―Homer, The Odyssey

I don’t have the group picture from the day my dad visited my fraternity house at Oklahoma State University. It was awkward compared to the “Mom’s Day” photo we would snap a few months later. Not that it’s awkward to take pictures with my dad — we’re all smiles — but the “Dad’s Day” photo, which hung above my fraternity brother’s desk, along with a compilation of date party photos, looked anything but natural.

Each year, the university invites parents to spend a day with their kids. Most of us eat at one of the iconic Eskimo Joe’s restaurants, tailgate, and then head to a football game. Afterward, it’s off to the bars, or whatever late night event your parent can muster the energy for. Outside fraternity and sorority houses, you’ll find co-eds posing for group photos with dear old mom or dad.

The photos with the moms always turn out great. There we are, hugging mom or kissing her face. Everyone’s laughing and appears to be having a great time. If your mom made it out to the bar for a drink, like mine did, you’d introduce her to the girl you were interested in while acting part of the perfect gentlemen. Then you’d meet the mother of said-girl and your moms would screech about what a cute couple the two of you would make.

Dads were different. Like Saturn versus Earth different.

The group photos always seemed cold. There were some hugs happening, but they were those weird side hugs that Christians seem so fond of giving one another — the “keep some room for the Holy Spirit” variety. Everyone looks like a stoic philosopher; the smiles seem somewhat forced. When the dads came to the bar, they either became Frank the Tank or scanned the room like the Terminator. Most guys never introduced their dad to the girl they were interested in, either. Unlike my mom, my dad and I grabbed dinner and caught up before he had to leave. He had work the next day.

(read the rest here)

_______________

Thoughts?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I agree there is a problem with missing fathers and this article is dead on, but there is not problem with masculinity. Masculinity is awesome! If anything the problem is there is not enough real masculine men, hence men abdicate their role as fathers. Being a man means rising to responsibility.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Was there ever a time in recent history in this country when men and their sons were close in the way suggested as necessary by the article? 

Perhaps just having Dad around, as a role model, even a flawed one is better than not having him there at all. But when in the last 120 years has dad been a shoulder to cry on in a crisis for young men? Never, as far as I can recall.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Was there ever a time in recent history in this country when men and their sons were close in the way suggested as necessary by the article?
> 
> Perhaps just having Dad around, as a role model, even a flawed one is better than not having him there at all. But when in the last 120 years has dad been a shoulder to cry on in a crisis for young men? Never, as far as I can recall.


Men were a lot more emotionally intelligent or at least articulate in the 18th century. At least educated ones, all you have to do is read the correspondence letters they wrote. This kind of macho, bottle up all your feelings is a mid 20th century invention.

Besides that we live in the age of communication, men can't afford to be stoic like they were in the last century. The world will pass them by. You need to be able to communicate and do it effectively if you are to succeed.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Thoughts?


I think he's full of **** for the most part. 
Human beings, (not just men, but women as well) are to soft and entitled now days. They don't have any resiliency. A clear and definite lack of a never-say-die attitude about life.

The younger generations seem to have these qualities in spades.

The only part I could agree with him on is the fact that people project onto other people what their definition of "a man" is. Plenty of those ideas are wrong.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Being a man means rising to responsibility.


I'm curious, expound on this.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Windwalker said:


> I'm curious, expound on this.


A lot of guys are willing to just walk away from their responsibility.

This is seen on many different levels. I worked on a job site where the work wasn't that hard, it was a nice fall day, with pheasants jumping out of a nearby corn field. A day where being outside was a good thing. One of my co-workers spent most of the morning trying to avoid work & bi0atching about how broke he was. Just after lunch he threw down his shovel, said "F this" and started walking to his truck. I asked him where he was going, he was "tired", and gonna go get a beer. By leaving the site, he knew he would be fired.

He's probably still broke & complaining about everything. He needed to "man up".

Don't get me wrong, everyone gets kicked in the teeth by life, knocked down & beat.

There are times where a person needs some external help. But, there are other times where you just have to put your head down & bull forward.

I know there are dads that would love to see their kids, but the X is playing games to inflict pain on the dad.

BUT, I know of dad's where the X is cooperative, and wants to co-parent. YET, the dad neglects the kids.
Those guys need to man up, face their responsibilities.

If you can't do that, you should KEEP IT IN YOUR PANTS!

*** edited to add personal rant!

ALTHOUGH, I have questioned whether I should even bother being a man that takes care of his kids, pays the bills, puts his family before himself.

I've seen many families like mine broken up when the wife says "You're boring, too predictable, I don't care if you've put in a 10 hour day, let's go out to the bars"

Husband just wants to relax, ends up getting walking papers cuz wife went & found someone to pay attention to her while her H is working to earn the money she is spending. Just saw it happen to a co-worker. He did his best, it was never good enough for his princess bride.

Other than being to look yourself in the mirror and have boundaries for yourself, a person questions their path, more so when it seems a lot of the women prefer the douchenozzles.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> a lot of the women prefer the douchenozzles.


My first wife did. A douchenozzle with a big douchenozzle was especially preferred.



FrazzledSadHusband said:


> I have questioned whether I should even bother being a man that takes care of his kids, pays the bills, puts his family before himself.


I was one of the very fortunate men whose dad DID teach me to be a man, and how to trust God. When I "questioned"...the answer came, that I was to do as God wanted, and as my dad wanted, and I am so blessed to have had those two things be quite the same.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> ALTHOUGH, I have questioned whether I should even bother being a man that takes care of..........


This is the crux my question.
A man is, man because he does________.

I question everything. The reason behind that is because I hear about how the older generation (I'm rather old fashioned in a lot of way) says that a man should do this and that and this is how a man if defined.

I also hear people from the younger generations say that the crotchety old people and their ways are wrong and everything should be changed.

I'm a dinosaur in a lot of ways, but also think the modern ways are wrong a lot of the time. I think there is a balance in there, but human beings don't come with operating manuals.

It's definitely a mind **** at times. Not that I am confused at all about what I am or what I do, because I'm absolutely not. It just makes me think and push back at certain ideas and notions.

Good post FSH.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

TJW said:


> My first wife did. A douchenozzle with a big douchenozzle was especially preferred.
> 
> 
> 
> I was one of the very fortunate men whose dad DID teach me to be a man, and how to trust God. When I "questioned"...the answer came, that I was to do as God wanted, and as my dad wanted, and I am so blessed to have had those two things be quite the same.


After I posted this, I listened to a sermon where the pastor was talking about walking the straight & narrow path and not getting discouraged when it seems people around you are successful while NOT walking the walk.

Gonna have to listen to that one again.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

One of the books I frequently recommend to men is Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy. It contains a lot of discussion about how men aren't getting the masculine role models they need and how women teachers, mothers, and women bosses are harming a man's ability to interact with women.

The book Iron John by Robert Bly also laments how men are no longer doing "male" bonding and mentoring. The whole right of puberty and being accepted by adult males is no longer part our our culture. In other cultures a boy is given a spear and told to go out and survive in the jungle or kill a lion and if they do, they return to their village as a man and accepted by everyone as a man.

The problem with today's men is largely a lack of fathers, but more importantly a lack of fathers who are good men.

There is a very famous story of Elephants and Men that documents what happens in the wild, when adult males aren't there to control juveniles. In the Absence of Fathers: A Story of Elephants and Men



> Some of the park rangers settled on a theory. What had been missing from the relocated herd was the presence of the large dominant bulls that remained at Kruger. In natural circumstances, the adult bulls provide modeling behaviors for younger elephants, keeping them in line.
> 
> Juvenile male elephants, Dr. Horn pointed out, experience “musth,” a state of frenzy triggered by mating season and increases in testosterone. Normally, dominant bulls manage and contain the testosterone-induced frenzy in the younger males. Left without elephant modeling, the rangers theorized, the younger elephants were missing the civilizing influence of their elders as nature and pachyderm protocol intended.
> 
> To test the theory, the rangers constructed a bigger and stronger harness, then flew in some of the older bulls left behind at Kruger. Within weeks, the bizarre and violent behavior of the juvenile elephants stopped completely. The older bulls let them know that their behaviors were not elephant-like at all. In a short time, the younger elephants were following the older and more dominant bulls around while learning how to be elephants.


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

When we look at trends in society, when we look at correlations, its hard to ignore father absenteeism. 

Now first, let me say, I am not pointing a finger here, it takes two to make a baby. But the break down of the nuclear family can not be ignored - and it is most defiantly a rising trend. 

Three times as many children grew up in fatherless homes in 2012 than they did in 1960.

http://fathers.com/wp39/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/Children-Living-with-Mother-Only.jpg

Children from fatherless homes have higher rate of suicide, higher rates of run aways, higher rates of school drop out, higher rates of behavior and violence disorders.... I could go on an on.

I do not think anyone could argue that the rise of the fatherless home is a good thing, and I do think that many issues our society is facing today are related to this fatherless trend. 

I count my lucky stars.... yes I am a woman, but fathers are very very important for us as well. My dad taught me how to be independent, that I was capable, how to demand respect and be sure I only allowed those who treated me well, into my life. I watched my friends, who did not have the same kind of father figure growing up, and I saw them struggle. 

Ah yes, my dad is a gem, adopted my step siblings, and they were raised with a strong father figure. He is the "God Father" for my best friend growing up (he is still dad to this day), and now he is involved in the lives of his many grand kids. 

When I read the intro, I understood that I am not a guy, but I was thinking "oh no, this is all wrong, my dad kicks ***!" All the pictures would be all smiles, and the bar? He would have a crowd gathered to hear his well told and roaring funny stories. 

In the end.... we need more great dads, in this country, and in this world. Their role is so important, but more and more being forgotten.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

sokillme said:


> Men were a lot more emotionally intelligent or at least articulate in the 18th century. At least educated ones, all you have to do is read the correspondence letters they wrote. This kind of macho, bottle up all your feelings is a mid 20th century invention.
> 
> Besides that we live in the age of communication, *men can't afford to be stoic *like they were in the last century. The world will pass them by. *You need to be able to communicate and do it effectively* if you are to succeed.


These two are not mutually exclusive. Stoic doesn't mean noncommunicative, it just means you don't ***** and whine about the negative, you roll with them and don't let them negatively affect your output. If you want to be a leader, some degree of stoicism is necessary; you lose the moral authority to lead if you look like you can't handle the situation. But yes, you still have to communicate the things that matter. 

While we continue to push men to be more open and vulnerable, the ones who take it too far are the ones who will get left behind. 

Same goes for women. I have at times been subordinate to women in traditionally male dominated fields. The stoics did the best, at least in terms of mission accomplishments. You could really tell which ones were getting promoted on results and which ones were getting promoted to make a diversity quota. 

STOICS UNITE!
(it's just going to be a pretty quiet support group, with not a lot of real sharing going on :laugh


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> These two are not mutually exclusive. Stoic doesn't mean noncommunicative, it just means you don't ***** and whine about the negative, you roll with them and don't let them negatively affect your output. If you want to be a leader, some degree of stoicism is necessary; you lose the moral authority to lead if you look like you can't handle the situation. But yes, you still have to communicate the things that matter.
> 
> While we continue to push men to be more open and vulnerable, the ones who take it too far are the ones who will get left behind.
> 
> ...


That is probably not the best word then. I would say emotionally inhibited. This doesn't mean crying or whining by the way, I mean being able to successfully articulate your feelings in a way that communicates them to others. That can be don't in a masculine manor. Though I will admit some of these Millennial men come off effeminate to me. I think that is because they were taught by their mothers and not by their fathers. 

In a sense I think that some men and women are actually afraid of male emotions and they are often seen as dangerous, or of course the standard week. This harms men and women, but it is common. Even in some of those who would consider themselves as progressive. How often do we see jokes about men's tears. That is a popular meme for instance. (Not saying I am for men being overly emotional). 

There is certainly a masculine way to discuss emotions. Think of all the art that is about emotions that was written by men. Also think of all the psychological an affective science that men have done on the subject. I just think in the last 60 years or so popular culture has gotten to the point where some people even think men are incapable of even having emotions. Culture has pushed this myth of this kind of robotic superman as the masculine idea. I like to go more with Bruce Willis in Die Hard, more then say John Wayne or Allen Alda.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

I shouldnthave said:


> My dad taught me how to be independent, that I was capable, how to demand respect and be sure I only allowed those who treated me well, into my life.


Good post.

If I may though, *Respect is commanded* not demanded. There is in fact a very significant and huge difference.

When you have to demand respect after you have shown to be worthy of respect, then those are the people to be cut from the team and or your life.

I know it sounds like semantics, but the definitions are completely different.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

I shouldnthave said:


> When we look at trends in society, when we look at correlations, its hard to ignore father absenteeism.
> 
> Now first, let me say, I am not pointing a finger here, it takes two to make a baby. But the break down of the nuclear family can not be ignored - and it is most defiantly a rising trend.
> 
> ...


Highlighted is why I put up with no sex for a number of years. I took my kids fishing, hunting, ball games, taught them how to cook, etc. I treated my wife well, once the youngest hit 15, got his drivers license, then I let wife know things needed to change or I was gone.

My wife doesn't like being in crowds, she didn't go to many of the kids activities. I was driving my son home from a basketball game he played in, he said "I always play better when I know you're watching".
Made my eyes tear up, my wife missed so many memories by staying home. I was asked several times at kid's games if I was divorced. I responded "I'm married", lady said to me "I never see your wife here".

For those who say it's better to be divorced, I say it depends, for me I knew my kids would have no one there if I wasn't. 

So you could say I "maned up and took my lumps"


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

sokillme said:


> I agree there is a problem with missing fathers and this article is dead on, but there is not problem with masculinity. Masculinity is awesome! If anything the problem is there is not enough real masculine men, hence men abdicate their role as fathers. Being a man means rising to responsibility.


Masculinity is a word that means very different things to different people, so I can't say at this point if I agree w/ you or not. I am all for responsibility, but we probably both think that a lot of women rise to responsibility.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

SpinyNorman said:


> Masculinity is a word that means very different things to different people, so I can't say at this point if I agree w/ you or not. I am all for responsibility, but we probably both think that a lot of women rise to responsibility.


If you are talking about the toxic masculinity idea that seems to be so spoken about today that is a very purposeful co-opt of a positive word to associate it with bad things to fit a very clear agenda. One which I reject.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> Highlighted is why I put up with no sex for a number of years. I took my kids fishing, hunting, ball games, taught them how to cook, etc. I treated my wife well, once the youngest hit 15, got his drivers license, then I let wife know things needed to change or I was gone.
> 
> My wife doesn't like being in crowds, she didn't go to many of the kids activities. I was driving my son home from a basketball game he played in, he said "I always play better when I know you're watching".
> Made my eyes tear up, my wife missed so many memories by staying home. I was asked several times at kid's games if I was divorced. I responded "I'm married", lady said to me "I never see your wife here".
> ...


You are by definition a very GOOD MAN.. I deeply respect / admire men like you... sounds the sexlessness in your marriage has improved, I hope so...

For hanging in there during that time.. basically putting your children before your own needs... for giving it your all / steadfastly being there for them... Again... admirable.... the resentment & frustration a sexless marriage can cause would have destroyed many....or had them fall into an affair...

When I read of men like you ... this is "strength" of character... Men who hold their families UP...this drives you, you feel purpose in the role of what being a Father means ....it's very Giving, Loving , and Yes..we need more Men/ Fathers like you in our world ! 

Your wife is very blessed, she married a GOOD MAN and your influence on your children will last a lifetime...


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Being a good Father is knowing when to be emotional and of knowing when to be unmoved and Stoic!

A marked combination is what is direly needed as a good Dad is required to wear many overlapping hats with family and non-family members alike!*


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

My Dad taught me to always believe in myself and my ability.
He taught me that a man puts his family first above everything else.
He taught me that a man who is unwilling to provide for his family is the lowest of the low.
He also taught me that a man always pays on dates.
Three out of four ain’t bad.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

sokillme said:


> If you are talking about the toxic masculinity idea that seems to be so spoken about today that is a very purposeful co-opt of a positive word to associate it with bad things to fit a very clear agenda. One which I reject.


I didn't really have anything in mind, but I'm not going to declare anything good or bad until I know what the thing is exactly.


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

Windwalker;19395657
I know it sounds like semantics said:


> You know, I agree with you. I writing from a cell phone and just kinda bang out the posts. Command, yes, the vast majority of the time.
> 
> But I will say, as a woman, there have been times I have been forced to DEMAND respect. I am thinking of drunken college jerks who I had to remind that I could physically injure their balls (seriously faught off an attempted rape once). Times when I have had to be the protector of a group of woman and DEMAND to be respected and heard.
> 
> ...


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Was there ever a time in recent history in this country when men and their sons were close in the way suggested as necessary by the article?
> 
> Perhaps just having Dad around, as a role model, even a flawed one is better than not having him there at all. But when in the last 120 years has dad been a shoulder to cry on in a crisis for young men? Never, as far as I can recall.


That is very true, but since then there have been several other things that have further removed men from the process of socialization. Among them, standardized education, birth control for women and no fault divorces.

I am not saying that any of them are good or bad on their own, but without an accompanying change in societal expectations, their results are proving to be disastrous. Perhaps the pendulum will swing in the other direction and we will reach a point of equilibrium but right now things are out of kilter.


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