# Journey from sexlessness and joined up thinking



## Hunch (Jan 18, 2012)

Hi everyone - I'm a 26 year old bloke, been in a relationship with my fiancee for two and half years now. We're getting married in March. I've been lurking and absorbing as much as possible from here for the last month or so, reading a couple of the Required Reading books from the Man Up/ Nice guy reference. Things are starting to get better slowly, which I'm stoked about because had I not found these resources, I'd still be sleeping next to someone I couldn't stand being around because constant rejection made me feel so bloody awful. I can't pose an individual question as I don't have one, but I'd like some pointers on how to make my strategy more joined up...! I've been wading through the Sex in Marriage forum and 2/3rds of all posts are along the lines of "Doomed to a sexless marriage... help!" or "I've given up  " etc. I guess I want to tell a happy story for those who are(were) in the same position as me "I love my spouse, but I can't stand a life without intimacy." And to thank Deejo, Atholk, MEM, and all of you for the combined wisdom on this forum, which has thankfully let me know I'm not insane, and I'm not a sex-pest for wanting my wife to want me. I'm NORMAL!! 

Let me be clear, this is not about me having sex. I have turned down all (two) rather blatant opportunities to go outside my relationship for that. If I was that mercenary, I'd not worry about trying to fix OUR problem, just resolve MINE with the least amount of effort. 

We'd gone quite a long time with sex every couple of weeks, and it was the kind of sex which devalues us (as spouses) more than any other: "I'd rather be doing anything else right now-why-won't-he-leave-me-alone / I'll just get this over and done with sex." A point which had me in tears of rage and frustration (alone, of course, because I'm a Man, and it is only acceptable for a man to cry in public after he's put his dog down). On my birthday last year, we got into bed, and she started crying because she didn't feel like having sex, but thought she should because we hadn't in ages, and didn't want to disappoint me. To my eternal shame, I let my nuts rule the decision making process, and we had sex. I must ABSOLUTELY stress at this point she had begrudgingly agreed to have sex. So we did, and the thought that haunted me over the next few months was "She made me feel like a rapist for wanting it even though she didn't. On my Birthday. And we're not married yet. Super." 

Constant rejection went on for quite a while, me being hurt, confused and rejected every time by her attitude of "why do you want sex all the time, we're both busy, it's just what happens, etc etc." Funnily enough, I became resentful of the roommate whom my girlfriend had morphed into; moreover a roommate I didn't get on with, who hurt my feelings all the time, and who stopped me sleeping with anyone. 

I found this forum, and digested bits and pieces - especially MEM's emphasis on boundaries. This was to stand me in good stead two nights later. She had gone out for drinks after work because that was her last day with that job. We had arranged a date for 7 30 at our local restaurant to try to re connect, spend some 'us time' - addressing what I _thought_ was the reason she no longer desired me based on what she was _saying_. Which I now know of course, is all nonsense. Actions not words are my yardstick now. So she phones at half five and says 'I might stay on a bit, that ok babe?' (it started as a lunch..) I said 'Of course, but remember we've got the reservation at 7 30. Don't be drunk, and don't be late.' Half seven comes around (I'm in a pressed shirt, showered shaved and ready for a nice date night) and I get a phone call "Where are you baby....shorry im late...ill be home sooooon.....shorry." I immediately cancelled the reservation, and stood in the kitchen waiting for her to get home. Now if she had called at five and said "I'm sorry babe, but I'm leaving these guys, and we're having a really good night, could we postpone date night till tomorrow?" I wouldn't have minded. But that whole exchange made me realise just how unequal our relationship had become-She got home three sheets to the wind and I explained to her in a calm voice that we were _not_ going on the date because _she_ was drunk, and had stood me up when we were supposed to be trying to get back on track. I then said my love for her was *not* unconditional- 1) we will _never_ cheat on each other and 2) we will treat each other as we would expect to be treated. She stamped all over the second one, and was very surprised when I told her to go to sleep, I'll be working on my motorcycle, and no I _won't _ be apologising this time for upsetting you, because _I'm _ confident that I'm right on this one, and I'll take the short term discomfort of your tears for the payback of you being slightly more attracted to me for standing up for myself. I remember being enraged by the fact that the woman I'd given up everything for would treat me like that (and expect to get away with it) and curiously amused, because the exchange played out exactly as posters on here said it would - she was very confused about the change in dynamic, and tried all sorts of dirty tricks (like sitting outside my shed in the rain crying - and crying louder when I didn't react) to get her status quo back. 

It's turning out to be a slow journey though - So far my biggest mistake caused The Great Wallpaper Argument Of Christmas Eve, which funnily enough did not result in us re-forging our intimate connection. I over-egged the Alpha pudding in a totally confused way, where in that case the real Alpha thing to do would have been to let it go. It's wallpaper. 

So thank you everyone, and If you're ok with it, I'd like to post my progress through this game/task/journey/enlightenment to tap into this awesome resource, and to say thank you and that the wisdom works!!


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

So when did the better sex start?


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## Hunch (Jan 18, 2012)

MrK said:


> So when did the better sex start?


Its a slow journey. So far, after upping alpha, being slightly unpredictable with the thermostat and putting all resentment aside, I got some (willingly) by putting some porn type music on, being naked under a boilersuit, brandishing a wrench and barging in on her in the shower with a dodgy Dutch accent claiming to be the plumber she called. Goofy seems to work ok, but I'd like to get to the stage where she WANTS me rather than WANTS ME TO STOP being a doofus to get laid... Got a long way to go before she starts hitting on me again!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

You need to call off the wedding. Things should be great at this point. If they are not, getting married won't help anything. Actions speak louder than words. 

If you get married, she will hear that you are fine with how things are, even if your words are saying something different.


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## Hunch (Jan 18, 2012)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hunch (Jan 18, 2012)

Wasn't expecting that kind of broadside! I won't be running just yet though. Dont' mean to sound like she's a B**ch, cause she's not- i went on an extensive 2-year B**ch recognition course (residential) and I know the signs. It's difficult here cause you're only getting my take on things- not hers. Since I started implementing certain strategies I found here and in other places (2 date rule, manning up, dropping expectation and resentment, thIngs have improved exponentially- our home is much much happier, we spoon again, and I'm much more relaxed. It's a cowardly, arrogant man who in my situation blames everthing on the wife- takes two to tango- or to prevent tangoing. Had an Up-Alpha sucess in a big way the other day- went to pick her up from the pub- dressed smartly, smellin good and standing straight. All her mates complemented me, her bessie actually calling me 'sexy' I kept up what i guessed to be a dominant, but non- threatening Alpha ish posture (ie hand in the small of her back, holding her close, smiling all the time (doing the This is my Woman and I'm proud to be out with her bit- Don't need to act that!) and as soon as we left, she was All. Over. Me. Seriously- don't remember that much sexy attention in public even when dating. She showed genuine desire that night- which is what I'm trying to acheive. I'm sort of muddling through at the moment, but it is definitely an upward trend. I've had a few relationships, enough to know a good woman from a toxic one, and enough to know that something worthwhile takes work. Put another way- I'd be just as unhappy if she gave me the kind of unconditional, soppy love I have been giving her- I'd be smothered and bored by now, and probably writing a thread like "she wants it all the time but her neediness is a big turn off..."
_Posted via Mobile Device_

Edited- not *food* woman, *good* woman


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## Mr_brown (Oct 17, 2011)

Things aren't going to change unless you are willing to sacrifice everything!


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## Hunch (Jan 18, 2012)

Ah, that was my eureka moment. I've ALWAYS put past girlfriends on a pedestal, and ALWAYS been conflict avoidant. Two months ago I genuinely believed I was a victim of bait and switch. Had I gotten rid of the relationship then, I'd be doomed to repeat the same behaviour ad infinitum. I'll bet my Triumph that with me (and other Nice Guys) sex/intimacy is excellent in the traditional 'honeymoon period,' which is before a couple start living together and their minor differences become conflicts, but as soon as a Nice Guy makes it clear that he will do anything anything ro avoid conflict, even if he knows he is right, (fitness tests), then desire fizzles and dies. I realised in my Eureka moment- The Great Date Night Stand Up, that to win everything I had to be willing to gamble everything, confident that in that instance I was holding a stronger hand than she was. It paid off massively- like I said, I'm not yet some kind of Marriage Jedi, (and if you read his book, you'll know he was self educting for five years before he started blogging, and had his share of foul ups), but learning from this place has already had massive effects on our happiness. Relationships are one of the hardest things in life to get right- and no one teaches you how to do it. Yes, the Biology master taught me something about penises and vaginas and fallopian tubes or something, but no one teaches you how to make a relationship work. I believe now that anyone who ends up in a perfect marriage, where fights are over instantly and the sex is always freely available to both partners, without anyone doing any homework or putting in the graft, is just very, very lucky. 

So my fiancee is gorgeous, and I tell her so. But I don't want her thinking I'm saying that automatically, or to get sex, so how can I complement her without sounding (as I used to) like I expect sex in return?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Hunch said:


> Wasn't expecting that kind of broadside! I won't be running just yet though. Dont' mean to sound like she's a B**ch, cause she's not- i went on an extensive 2-year B**ch recognition course (residential) and I know the signs. It's difficult here cause you're only getting my take on things- not hers. Since I started implementing certain strategies I found here and in other places (2 date rule, manning up, dropping expectation and resentment, thIngs have improved exponentially- our home is much much happier, we spoon again, and I'm much more relaxed. It's a cowardly, arrogant man who in my situation blames everthing on the wife- takes two to tango- or to prevent tangoing. Had an Up-Alpha sucess in a big way the other day- went to pick her up from the pub- dressed smartly, smellin good and standing straight. All her mates complemented me, her bessie actually calling me 'sexy' I kept up what i guessed to be a dominant, but non- threatening Alpha ish posture (ie hand in the small of her back, holding her close, smiling all the time (doing the This is my Woman and I'm proud to be out with her bit- Don't need to act that!) and as soon as we left, she was All. Over. Me. Seriously- don't remember that much sexy attention in public even when dating. She showed genuine desire that night- which is what I'm trying to acheive. I'm sort of muddling through at the moment, but it is definitely an upward trend. I've had a few relationships, enough to know a good woman from a toxic one, and enough to know that something worthwhile takes work. Put another way- I'd be just as unhappy if she gave me the kind of unconditional, soppy love I have been giving her- I'd be smothered and bored by now, and probably writing a thread like "she wants it all the time but her neediness is a big turn off..."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> Edited- not *food* woman, *good* woman


I think you misunderstand. I don't mean leave her - I do mean postpone the wedding. You have an issue here. If you don't fix it (and by that, I mean fix yourself), you will be in trouble. Are you sure enough that this is a permanent fix for you and her to go forward being married? Are a couple of good dates telling you this problem is gone? Because in about two months, you two are joined, and there are way too many stories about marriage making these issue worse, not better.


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## Hunch (Jan 18, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I think you misunderstand. I don't mean leave her - I do mean postpone the wedding. You have an issue here. If you don't fix it (and by that, I mean fix yourself), you will be in trouble. Are you sure enough that this is a permanent fix for you and her to go forward being married? Are a couple of good dates telling you this problem is gone? Because in about two months, you two are joined, and there are way too many stories about marriage making these issue worse, not better.


Yeah. I'm confident. I'm happy that I'm going into this with my eyes open all the way, I'm no genius, but I'm no Forrest Gump either. Thing is, I see an immediate, positive response from some of the changes in attitude I've made, and I'm on the right path. If i hadn't started my homework and begun to understand simple bits about the way people interact in a relationship, I'd still be in a very bad place and more than inclined to agree with you.


*I should havve been more honest- the wedding is in her home town- the other side of the world, so in my case postponement= abandonment. Its a combination of things- 1) I'm happy I've got the tools I need to fix this, and the proof is how we are now vs how we were before I started reading up and 2) its a Sh*t/ bust all/nothing equation. And if it all goes wrong, I'll make sure I get my dog. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MAEPT10 (Oct 19, 2011)

Hunch said:


> So my fiancee is gorgeous, and I tell her so. But I don't want her thinking I'm saying that automatically, or to get sex, so how can I complement her without sounding (as I used to) like I expect sex in return?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Creeping around a bit, following this story.

I would love to hear some insight on this question too. I too am a NG, and am guilty of covert-contracts and shet. But I really honestly think my wife is beautiful, and I tell her so too.


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## MAEPT10 (Oct 19, 2011)

Hunch said:


> (and if you read his book, you'll know he was self educting for five years before he started blogging, and had his share of foul ups),
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




I'm sorry if I missed it, but which book are we talking about here?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

MAEPT10 said:


> Creeping around a bit, following this story.
> 
> I would love to hear some insight on this question too. I too am a NG, and am guilty of covert-contracts and shet. But I really honestly think my wife is beautiful, and I tell her so too.


It is most effective when you can't get anything from it. Don't tell her when you are both getting ready for bed. She is likely going to think you are doing it to get sex. 

Instead, you tell her when she is making dinner for you. You walk up behind her, pin her against the counter, lean down and whisper in her ear how beautiful or sexy she is, then walk away (quick smack to the backside is optional). You don't look back, you don't expect anything, you just do what ever you were going to do. You have given the compliment with no strings attached and no expectations.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hunch,
Your "branch point" is going to be the choice to have your first child. So keep working on yourself - BUT - you need to accept something. If your wife turns out to be someone who feels that sex is a major way to control/manipulate you - this is going to be a miserable marriage. Because she is ALWAYS going to give you minimal sex so that she can hint she MIGHT do it if only you would "fetch, roll over, sit, lie down, or do whatever other little act of service or sacrifice she wants".

So BEFORE you have kids you need to get to the point where she realizes that YOU matter every bit as much as she does. That said:
1. You are not allowed to be clingy - it isn't fair and it is a huge turn off - I know you know it - but you have to be consistent in how you act
2. You need to get really good at managing fitness tests - she is quite a handful - you managed her little drunk/late appearance for your dinner date great - you forced an apology
3. You need to prioritize - that means you do NOT let her get away with being disrespectful - but after exerting some pressure - you let her have her way on home decor stuff - pbeing aggressive about wallpaper or paint colors will make for an unhappy home
4. You need to learn to COMPLETELY shut off any sexual vibe when she is in a bad place - exhausted - legitimately upset - etc. 
5. And you need to communicate that there is a minimal amount of sex you expect unless she is sick or there is some major issue in her life - and major does not mean day to day noise level stuff
6. You two need to have some understanding about how she handles rejecting you. Meaning - pushing you away or acting irritated is only ok if it is really obvious she didn't want to and you stupidly pushed ahead anyway. If it was not obvious: one she needs to be kind about it and two she needs to either say let's connect tomorrow or she simply is responsible for initiating within a day or two

And ALL of that is going to be predicated on a few key things:
1. You need to learn what turns her off - serious about this it is a big deal - learn what you can by observation but also get her to talk. most guys are not good at learning this. my wife HATES being groped. So I never grope her. I am very affectionate though and she loves that.
2. You cannot let her play the "I am more important than you are" game - I have a multiple page post on that - don't talk to her unless you have her full attention - if she is playing with her phone - play with yours.
3. She needs to learn to apologize without playing extended games and crying when she is in the wrong. Shortly after she stops apologizing she will stop having much sex with you.
4. You also need to talk about how you expect NOT to be deprioritized after the baby. My W is a great mom. And of course the baby came first. But my w made sure to make the effort for me to know that right after the baby - I came second. She didn't use the baby as an excuse to avoid sex - or play the sympathy card. 

If you have a baby before you establish at least a year of stable, respectful and considerate behavior you are likely going to be very, very sorry. 

You know what you are capable of in terms of being a good partner. If you hit your stride and she is still not treating you all that great - you may be with the wrong person......




TE=Hunch;557123]Yeah. I'm confident. I'm happy that I'm going into this with my eyes open all the way, I'm no genius, but I'm no Forrest Gump either. Thing is, I see an immediate, positive response from some of the changes in attitude I've made, and I'm on the right path. If i hadn't started my homework and begun to understand simple bits about the way people interact in a relationship, I'd still be in a very bad place and more than inclined to agree with you.


*I should havve been more honest- the wedding is in her home town- the other side of the world, so in my case postponement= abandonment. Its a combination of things- 1) I'm happy I've got the tools I need to fix this, and the proof is how we are now vs how we were before I started reading up and 2) its a Sh*t/ bust all/nothing equation. And if it all goes wrong, I'll make sure I get my dog. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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