# Of Two Minds - continue or end?



## Elrin (Jan 23, 2017)

Hello there,

I'm struggling with a decision that I need some perspective on - perhaps you all can help me step back and think about my situation clearly... I'll try to paint the picture and ask for some advice.

I'm married almost 12 years, with a 10-year old son. We have been through a lot in our relationship - nasty and manipulative in-laws (my parents), financial hardship, dealing with a twice-exceptional child's needs, moving to another country, health issues to name but a few. Unfortunately I think this has taken too much of a toll on my wife. It feels like I am living with two people - the woman I dearly love, and this other monster that takes over her body increasingly often. I put up with the nasty side because the wonderful woman I love is also in there.

Here's life with the nasty side of her: 

She's been using threats of leaving for years to get her way, but have always just been a tool in her argument toolbox. Speaking of which, she also brings back the past of when I was dumb enough to not take care of her needs well enough when our son was a baby. It automatically wins her any argument even 10 years later as I was indeed an ass back then and she really did have the most arduous birth experience I have come across.

I guess the short-and-long of it is that she accuses me of not caring for her, of not thinking of her needs, not doing the things she wants me to do. However I am at my wits end on how I could possibly do more. Here's a typical day/week in my life:
Wake up, make breakfast for the family, make sure lunches are packed and take out the garbage (I am known to forget the garbage about 1 out of 10 times), then take our son to school. I work relatively long hours, as is normal for my profession and responsibility level. After work, I pick up my son from swimming (mom took him there) or get him from home to take him to Judo. Dinner (she usually makes it since she wants to eat early) usually after that. I clean up the table, kitchen (a deal we made with her cooking dinner and me cleaning up) and house after that. I then help with homework and get my son into bed. After that I either help my wife with cleaning, sorting, E-mails, phone-calls, laundry, paperwork. I'd say 90% of the time I am busy with these tasks until bedtime or beyond. I'll play a game on my mobile phone for 10 minutes before bedtime to try and unwind. I'll have a couple of hours free maybe 1 day a week if I'm lucky. Week-ends are similar. I make breakfast, help with left-over homework, music practise, lessons, chores in & around the house. I'll maybe get a few hours "relaxation" to play with my son.

Is this normal? Do other people also only have 2-3 hours of free time per week? Am I not doing enough?

One thing that I think is an issue is that I do things in a different sequence or order of priority than her, and it drives her crazy. She'll expect me to do things the same way she would. Without her telling me which order. Apparently a good husband would know this automatically. When I ask, I'm being difficult. When I say I'm getting to it when she tries to remind me to do something she feels I should already have done first, I'm accused of talking back at her - something that a good husband should not do either. She's allowed to tell me how bad a person I am and I have to be quiet, no arguing.

Now I know what you think by now - she sounds horrible! But there is the wonderful side of her too... When the nasty woman is asleep:

She is fantastic at anticipating my needs and will be extremely thoughtful and prep things for me so that things are ready for me. She works like super-woman on helping our very difficult son with learning about school and life. Believe me, he can be extremely tiring - most people think he's great the first 30 minutes, OK after an hour and can't stand him for a minute longer after 2-3 hours, yet she takes him on day-in, day-out. She works (from home) for 4-6 hours per day, cooks a great, balanced meal in the evenings and drives my son from school, to his therapy sessions and swimming lessons. She'll provide emotional support to the family and make suggestions when other people are out of ideas. She'll deal with contractors for fixing things I don't have the time for, and navigates the medical bureaucracy for getting more help for our son. Warm hugs, really a kind-hearted and very caring person over-all.

We are in our mid-forties now and as we age and have less energy, more aches & pains (especially her since she has poor general health), we have less tolerance and she seems to be the nasty woman more often. I'm worried about menopause - and she's been more ferocious every thiem the nasty one takes over. What to do?


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## Elrin (Jan 23, 2017)

OK - so I got interrupted before I could finish my original post... Here goes with the last bit:

She's been threatening to leave (leaving our son with me and leaving the country) a few times. She's done it in a way where she says she can and will leave whenever she feels like we (we being me & my son) don't make her feel welcome anymore. No timeline, just, "I can leave any time I like, and you can't say anything because it's your fault." A few days ago this has gone a bit further where she asked me to do the paperwork for a separation agreement. 

There are some parts of her argument that I sadly am starting to agree with, and other parts that I don't. 
- Yes, I might just not be a good match for her, and we've taken this long to figure it out - also sticking together for the sake of our son.
- She says openly (to him as well) that she does not have any feeling of love anymore to our son. They fight viciously almost every day. She's told him that she is leaving at some unknown time too. This is not good for any child.
- Every time we have a big spat, a bit of me who loves her dies. So much of that has happened now that I have to admit I don't feel as much for her as in the past, and it shows in my actions to her.
On the other hand,
- I promised I will take care of her, no matter what. Call me old-fashioned, but I feel that's important. At least the wonderful woman I love deserves that dedication.
- She has poor general health and will need some-one to take care of her. Her ability to earn income is limited and I'm afraid she'll learn that leaving was a mistake too late - and her pride will prevent her from coming back.
- She has shown some efforts in dealing with anger management and other possible issues, and with the right support could feel better, which will make us all feel better.

Do I go ahead and do the paperwork she asked for, thereby putting almost the final nail in the coffin?


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## Grapes (Oct 21, 2016)

She sounds pretty entitled. Even if you were an ass 10 years ago. Seems like she will forever hold that over your head. That and the leaving comments are obviously manipulation tactics that have worked for a long time. She sounds like my W.

Its more then time for you to take a stand and shut down the manipulation.

One way to do that is to give her what she wants. My guess, from what very little ive read, is that she doesnt think you will do it. And the moment you fill those papers out and hand them to her the tune may change, or may not. Rest assured though... you WILL be blamed because YOU filled the papers out. 

Are you ready to walk? If you filled those papers out and she smiled and said OK are you willing to accept that? Are you ready for the final nail? If you are then do it. I would.

If you are doing more then 50% then no its not normal. Its also not normal to hear threats like that alllll the time. Its not normal for her to tell your boy shes leaving either. Not normal or Adult behavior.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Sir, I would not put up with the constant threat to leave and then ask to fill out paperwork to do so. It is manipulative to the 100 degree. Next time your W threatens have a copy of separation papers ready in hand. Let her know you will not live under her thumb of leaving when she wants. 

You are being emotionally manipulated with the threats. It is wrong and your W needs to understand that.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Next time she threatens to leave. 

Hand her a suitcase


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Sounds like a date night out for the two of you might do wonders. Once a week


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

You wife is struggling (for whatever reason) and is taking it out on you.
You have to stand up to her and become a strong man who will be loving and supportive but will not tolerate abuse or abuse of your son.
Sit her down and tell her you have had enough, you have to be prepared to lose this marriage to save it. As it stands she does not respect you. Show her that you have your limits too.
Tell her there will be no going back once the papers are done. Also tell her if she wants a seperation paper, she can do it herself! I is bizarre that you are doing it, sounds like you are a beta male who has put up with her manipulation for a long time.
Perhaps you need to read NMMNG and grow a pair.

Start doing the 180 on her. If she threatens you again, tell her to do whatever she wants you are not giving into her threats and demands anymore. She needs therapy, hormone replacement therapy or something but enough is enough.


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## oceanbreeze (Oct 8, 2007)

I am wondering, but why is your wife struggling so hard? Is is that she's not living the life that she imagined? Does she wish for something else and innately blames you and your child? 

Clearly, there must be some mental health and biological issues going on with her and a dissatisfaction that has been building up for quite some time. She is stuck in the house working and caring for the family's needs and your son. 

Maybe try one of the other poster's ideas of weekly dating and hiring a strong baby sitter to care for your son with needs. Then you two can focus on each other. If possible, even a get away weekend for the two of you each month along with weekly date nights once a week. Both of you are in your 40s and I understand that you are getting tired and bodies are changing and having such a busy lifestyle is starting to take its toll. Since your wife's health is generally not strong, then maybe she needs more support and caring as well.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

What is twice-exceptional, and since he does swimming and judo, I presume it doesn't mean autistic or any sort of mental incapabilities?


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

@Uptown... thoughts here?


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## Grapes (Oct 21, 2016)

Elrin said:


> I guess the short-and-long of it is that she accuses me of not caring for her, of not thinking of her needs, not doing the things she wants me to do. However I am at my wits end on how I could possibly do more.


I can relate to this on so many levels. Ive heard this for so long, and for so long I tried harder and harder yet still get accused of the same not caring. Frustration builds resentment and boom - now you cant stand your wife and here you are. I soo get this

Whats happening here are covert contracts. Same with me. If goes something like this. If you try this little bit harder or do this 1 more thing she will see you care. If you give up all your time and do everything she will see you care. Well covert contracts create resentment within yourself when you dont get the reaction you want. When you get told again and again that you dont care you get pissed because..well.. "look at all the stuff ive done". In essence you are trying to control her. You cant control her. The only solution is to stop making the contracts. 

does this ring true for you? This is exactly what ive done and my wife has literally said those exact same things to me.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

@3Xnocharm, thanks for the callout.



Elrin said:


> *She sounds horrible! *But there is the wonderful side of her too.... a kind-hearted and very caring person over-all. It feels like I am living with two people - the woman I dearly love, and this other monster that takes over her body increasingly often.


No, Elrin, not _horrible_. Rather, she sounds _emotionally unstable_. The behaviors you describe -- i.e., irrational anger, controlling behavior, easily triggered temper tantrums, vicious fights with her own son, lack of impulse control, and blaming you for every misfortune -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Importantly, I'm not suggesting your W has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she may exhibit moderate to strong traits of it.

I caution that BPD is not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person either "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a spectrum disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. 

I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as always being "The Victim," lack of impulse control, and temper tantrums.



> We are in our mid-forties... and she seems to be the nasty woman more often. I'm worried about menopause.


Elrin, the most common cause of strong BPD behavior is not the lifetime disorder itself but, rather, a temporary strong hormone change -- as occurs, e.g., during puberty. Indeed, such a large share of teenagers exhibit a strong flareup of BPD traits for several years that psychologists are very reluctant to diagnose a lifetime BPD issue until a person is at least 18 years old. 

Similarly, it is common for women to exhibit strong BPD trait flareups during pregnancy, postpartum, PMS, and perimenopause -- due to the strong hormone changes occurring at those times. Hence, given that your W is in her mid-forties, the most likely explanation for a flareup of BPD symptoms is perimenopause -- i.e., the transitional period of hormone fluctuation that leads up to menopause. Although perimenopause typically lasts 3 or 4 years, it can be much shorter or longer than that.



> What to do?


I suggest that you urge your W to have her hormone levels checked by her OB/GYN doctor. If she is going through perimenopause, the BPD behaviors of instability and irrational anger likely are temporary flareups of the BPD traits that all healthy people have. 

Yet, because hormones can fluctuate frequently during perimenopause, it can be difficult for a doctor to find evidence of the change in a single blood test. Several tests may be necessary. Hence, if documentation proves difficult or perimenopause is not indicated, I would suggest that she consult with a psychiatrist -- who can evaluate her based on her behaviors, not her blood tests.

In contrast, when a person is diagnosed by a therapist as "having BPD," the therapist is not referring to a temporary flareup of BPD traits but, rather, to a lifetime condition that typically is fully entrenched by the age of five. When that occurs, the BPD traits usually start showing very strongly in the early teens and -- absent years of treatment -- remain strong throughout the person's lifetime. 

The only exception is that the permanent BPD traits typically disappear during courtship because the person's infatuation holds her fears at bay -- with the result that her new partner will not start triggering those fears until her infatuation over him starts to evaporate. 

As a precaution, I suggest that you take a quick look at my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_. If most of those signs sound very familiar and started occurring early in your 12-year marriage -- not just in the past 2 or 3 years -- I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings any bells, I would be glad to join *3X *and the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, Elrin.


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## Elrin (Jan 23, 2017)

Thank you all for your great replies. I kind-of disappeared for a bit as I first got cold shivers when I heard the lawyer talk about what I should do (pretty aggressive), and then the lovely girl took control again and I was only happy to lose myself in my illusion of happiness. 

However...

The other one is back, with a vengeance. She was yelling at my son to stop crying (he was crying because he was being yelled at for crying when he was struggling with something hard). It was escalating pretty badly. Me, and even the cat tried to get her to calm down. Didn't even register. Then I made my mistake: I raised and thickened my voice to illustrate to her that yelling does not help some-one calm down. It lasted for 2 short sentences. She was stunned in silence for a minute, then stormed out. I went over immediately to apologize for using such extreme measures, but it was too late. A day later we had a talk about it and why I felt I needed to step in as she was going too far. During that conversation she decided that I "don't have that fundamental thing a woman is looking for" and how she now decided that that is who I am and will never change. She refuses to tell me what that fundamental thing is - says she's tired of trying. Since then, she's been giving me the cold shoulder, a cold voice, no hello's or goodbye's, basic utilitarian conversation, no touching, and binge-watching Korean TV dramas. That was 2 weeks ago. My birthday went by with a small mumble late afternoon "I guess it's your birthday, so happy birthday", that's it. She told me no sex forever, we're just living together because she doesn't have enough money to leave.

Curious thing is that she's better with my son now. She's taking him to his therapies, appointments and helping him with his practice and exercises, and only preaches to him (no yelling so far), she's been keeping her emotions in check where that is concerned. I have to admit that she works harder than any-one else on taking care of him. She drives him around, puts up with his antics and issues, researches endlessly on solutions, talks and networks on ways to help him. In that way she is fantastic with him, and I don't want him to lose that.

I'm once again conflicted, stressed, unhappy and don't know what to do.

Perhaps it's time for some replies:


aine said:


> You wife is struggling (for whatever reason) and is taking it out on you.


You can say that again. She's far away from family, eating foreign food all the time, has a difficult child, a husband that works too much, poor health, and working herself harder than her body can handle.


aine said:


> Perhaps you need to read NMMNG and grow a pair.
> Start doing the 180 on her. If she threatens you again, tell her to do whatever she wants you are not giving into her threats and demands anymore. She needs therapy, hormone replacement therapy or something but enough is enough.


Read the book a few years ago, applied the techniques and it made things 100% worse. The book speaks about the initial backlash, I stuck it out but she's got an emotionally queued memory and keeps grudges for life. It almost ended our marriage back then. I backed off and it got better. Maybe I did it wrong, but I think it might work on others, but not her. If I pull out papers, it's over, and my fault to boot.



Herschel said:


> What is twice-exceptional, and since he does swimming and judo, I presume it doesn't mean autistic or any sort of mental incapabilities?


It means he is both gifted and learning disabled. Exceptional in two ways, thus the twice-exceptional. It results in a very difficult and asynchronous child who needs special care yet is smart enough to make many believe he's so lucky. ("Lucky" enough to be smart enough to analyze himself and notice that he has the emotional maturity of a toddler and thinking about adult topics that he cannot process.) Imagine an autistic child who is also a genius. 



Grapes said:


> The only solution is to stop making the contracts.


How? It's like a spiral that I can't twist out of...

@Uptown, your post was incredibly insightful! While she does not meet all 18 of the Warning signs, she meets most of them. I have to admit it's a bit daunting and there seems to not be much that can be done about it... How do I get some-one like that to get the hormone therapy that might get her back to her mid-life "normal"? She won't admit there's something wrong, and woe is anybody to suggest she's wrong. She never admits to making mistakes in her life (except for marrying me, or listening to me when I got things wrong).

I guess I have a few options here:

Live with it. Accept that she's a room-mate who works super hard to take care of my son. Accept that she will occasionally make my life hell and live from day-to-day and count my blessings as they occur.
Prep separation papers (We're in Canada), outlining rules on how we'll split things up, shared parenting duties until the divorce, living arrangements and so forth. Hope that she realizes she's making a mistake but be prepared to lose her (and a mother for my son) if she goes nasty in response.
Sue her for divorce (using some really nasty loopholes - I won't go into all the details) and lose her guaranteed. It'll be over quick, but there's no going back. She'll take her split and leave the country.
Try to get her to a doctor who can help her. That very act may end it too, as she has a stigma against mental illness and does not admit that she is doing anything wrong. It's all me. Problem is the medical system here is so slow and so hard to access that it may end up with no-one helping her at all...

Sigh... This is enough to get anyone depressed...


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Elrin, thanks for returning to give us such a detailed update. I will respond further to two statements you made back in January.



> I do things in a different sequence or order of priority than her, and it drives her crazy. She'll expect me to do things the same way she would. Without her telling me which order.


A warning sign for autism is a sudden temper tantrum triggered by a minor change in schedule, in the order of those scheduled events, or in the surroundings. Has your W ever been diagnosed as having mild autism (what used to be called "Aspergers")? It would not be surprising, given that your son apparently did not inherit his autism from your side of the family.

I also note that this severe reaction to a minor change in ordering or schedules also is a warning sign for Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder. I mention this because, if your W is a BPDer, there is a good chance she also suffers from OCPD. A recent large-scale study found that a fourth of female full-blown BPDers also exhibit full-blown OCPD.



> She's been threatening to leave (leaving our son with me and leaving the country) a few times.... She says openly (to him as well) that *she does not have any feeling of love anymore to our son*. They fight *viciously almost every day*.


Elrin, I shuddered when reading these sentences. I suggest you seriously reconsider whether it is in your son's best interests to be raised by a mother who fights _"viciously"_ with him daily (except for during her good periods) and announces loudly that she does not love him. Granted, I cannot imagine how difficult and exhausting it must be to care for an autistic ten-year-old every day. But there is a point where all the hard work and good meals in the world cannot offset the damage of parental abuse.

I therefore suggest that you see a good psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is that you and your young son are dealing with. I say "by yourself" because, if your W really does have strong BPD symptoms, it is unlikely a therapist would tell her, much less tell you. Therapists (at least those here in the USA) typically are loath to tell a BPDer the name of her disorder -- for the protection of that client.

I assume that your son has already been seeing a psychiatrist to be treated for autism and to receive medication. If so, that would give you an opportunity to ask the psych about the potential damage your W is doing to your son. Of course, if you can do it there in Canada, it would be even better to have your son evaluated by a child psychologist.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

You most certainly are in a pickle. 

I guess you are gonna wait this out until she does something to end things. That is what will likely happen. Can you prepare yourself and your child for this. Please detach and get your ducks in a row for when that day comes. 

You didn't break her, she is doing this by being set in her ill ways. She is definitely ill, but won't accept or admit that she needs help. All you can do is hope for the best and most certainly detach and wait for the worst.

(((hugs))))

Sorry you are living this.


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## cc48kel (Apr 5, 2017)

Threats don't work because I do that myself which I hate.. But then he says 'get it started'... So, that's great advice to get the papers started and ready to hand over. Maybe she doesn't think you'll actually do it. 


But I'm wondering if the two of you need to get out of the house alone together.. A dinner date or even a simple walk together somewhere. In my marriage I am frustrated but when he agrees to go on a walk or do some yardwork with me..I'm so much better!! I feel as though he wants to be with me and it's not a duty because we are a family.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Elrin said:


> Hello there,
> 
> I'm struggling with a decision that I need some perspective on - perhaps you all can help me step back and think about my situation clearly... I'll try to paint the picture and ask for some advice.
> 
> ...


At the risk of being assassinated, I know this women intimately.

Difference: our two daughters were/are genius's. In fairness, one is an Ivy League genius, the other, too smart for her own britches [and cold and calculating] but very well accomplished and living the dream. Huh?

Your wife has a lot on her plate. The hard work and her failing health [energy loss] has frustrated her to no end. Plus, special needs children are forever...or so it seems.
Leaving you? That is her saying she wants to give up. She is tired of doing what she is doing. Not that she would never bail on you.

A good thing for me? My wife is rather old now, out of gas. I am not....yet. She cannot stand up to SunCMars. She loves me and only gets sassy and mean when she is very tired. When younger she could have easily taken care of herself, she liked to threaten. I told her to go if I am so bad. She made good money. I took a bag full of crap for a long time. My solution: I ran 10 miles or more and came home...took a nap. Her anger took a nap....usually.

I am/was also helpful, and can fix, construct, build anything. Am no slouch.

What to do? ..... Stick it out. 

When the child reaches majority, can you put him in a group home? I am assuming that he is that much restricted. To save your marriage, you need to do this. She may balk.

Yours is a tough case with no easy solution.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

cc48kel said:


> Threats don't work because I do that myself which I hate.. But then he says 'get it started'... So, that's great advice to get the papers started and ready to hand over. Maybe she doesn't think you'll actually do it.
> 
> 
> But I'm wondering if the two of you need to get out of the house alone together.. *A dinner date or even a simple walk together somewhere*. In my marriage I am frustrated but when he agrees to go on *a walk or do some yardwork with me..*I'm so much better!! I feel *as though he wants to be with me *and it's not a duty because we are a family.


Yes.......a women thing THIS.

Men like women who do the things that they enjoy, also, i.e., golf, fishing, sporting events, whatever.


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## Elrin (Jan 23, 2017)

Thank you all for sticking with me through this discussion - your insights, as varied as they are help me put things into perspective.

@Bibi1031: That is exactly what I am of two minds about. I guess I'm a bit old-fashioned about the promise I made her to take care of her always. I still care for her, despite what she believes and genuinely want her to feel better. I just don't know if I'm trying to hold on (me being stubborn?) to a belief that I can actually fulfill that promise. What if I cannot give her the kind of environment where she can be happy? What if she will be better off without me? 

Then there's my son. It goes from simple to super-complicated as soon as you bring him into the picture. Some days I throw myself into the fray to protect him from her (and as a result put one more nail in our relationship's coffin), and then think that he will be better off without her. Perhaps I need strategies to protect him without destroying my relationship with her... On other days I see how much hard work and effort she puts into helping him, chasing after solutions to his problems and essentially turning herself into an expert child psychologist to be able to help him. I don't want to take that away from him either.

@Uptown: Yes, I think she has some diagnosed issue. I do know she is highly gifted intellectually, and also likely have some associated disability or personality disorder of her own. She apparently was a real handful when she was small, jumping off bridges, and in general being a wild child. She likely has or had ADHD/ODD and perhaps some others mixed in. Many of her characteristics come out in our son, perhaps amplified by many of my own.
Her saying nasty things to our son is part of her issue - it's not right for some-one of his emotional maturity to hear that from his mom - even if what she really means is that she does not like/love his current behavior and that it is too much for her to handle right now. She goes through phases with this. She'll feel better towards him, work really hard, he misbehaves, she snaps and yells at him for hours/days, this peaks and goes into an "I don't care about you anymore" phase where she does almost nothing to the point of neglect. Eventually she feels better and the cycle repeats. 

The past month is the longest I have seen her in her "I don't care" mode. She works hard in her job as massage therapist, but other than that, do very little. Me & my son do more - purely because some-one has to do those things. Of course, she feels we only do those things because she is angry at us.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Elrin said:


> She likely has or had ADHD/ODD and perhaps some others mixed in.


Elrin, some members of the psychiatric community suspect that BPD and adult ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder) may not be two distinct disorders but, rather, represent -- at least for some patients -- two dimensions of one disorder. See, e.g., 2006 Study and 25% of BPDers Have ADHD. 

I've not yet found any reliable statistics on the incidence of BPD in adults exhibiting ADHD. I have found the reverse statistic, however. A therapeutic treatment center reports in 2011 that a fourth of BPDers exhibit adult ADHD. Specifically, it states:
_Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder frequently co-occurs in borderline individuals, affecting nearly 1 out of every 4. Like BPD, people with ADHD often struggle with impulsivity. One of the dilemmas with treating someone with BPD and ADHD is that ADHD medications can make borderline symptoms worse._ See Treatment Center.​You may also want to take a look at a 2013 study and a 2014 study. Both conclude that ADHD may be a childhood precursor for adolescent BPD.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Elrin said:


> She's been using threats of leaving for years to get her way, but have always just been a tool in her argument toolbox.


It has always been my sense that threats, ultimatums, and outright ordering other adults around is a sure-fire way to prevent any form of relationship success. I made this point on someone else's post and was attacked soundly by a chap implying that I'm a wuss and behaving like a rug. "Of course you tell your spouse what to do", he said, implying it was somehow, a healthy form of setting boundaries.

So, being open-minded, I contacted my colleagues who have been studying the mind, analyzing brain images and asked them.

Turns out the evidence is purely one-sided. No. Under no circumstances is any relationship, whether adult-to-adult, or even parent-to-child, enhanced when the method is to issue orders, ultimatums, threats whether it be spanking or divorce. Even a three year old child will immediately harbor resentment "My dad can order me around only because he's bigger" and that child will become the one who breaks the law as an adult.

So - divorce threats? My sense is this is someone with a much higher than average need to control others. Nobody can control anything except what you think (and therefore what you feel) and your behavior in the next ten seconds or so.

I've taken to accepting threats and ultimatums as the person giving me choice A or Choice B. If it's the first time that a person has used an ultimatum with me, I say, fairly quietly so as to make sure they know I'm not speaking out of emotion, "I tend to view ultimatums as being given a choice of two paths. I recommend that you give me such ultimatums only if you would be equally happy no matter which of the two offered paths I take". With my wife, she issued me one ultimatum - ever.



Elrin said:


> Speaking of which, she also brings back the past


The past is dead and has no bearing on the current. If you can learn from the past, that's OK, but years of attempts to find a benefit to regret have yielded nothing. If she demands an apology, give it, but be done with it.



Elrin said:


> I guess the short-and-long of it is that she accuses me of not caring for her, of not thinking of her needs, not doing the things she wants me to do.


If these are claims of the current conditions, then there may be merit in claims of "not caring for her". This means emotional support. "Thinking of her needs" is rather vague - an adult is supposed to know his/her own needs and supply 99% of them. If someone else actually NEEDS something they cannot supply themselves, then they are obligated to ask for it, not assume someone else can "think about it".

Things she wants you to do? Kinda depends on what they are. Sharing in the basic needs of life seems reasonable - share in keeping the house clean, share in food, whether it means one person cooks, the other cleans up, sure. Share in her ideas of making something perfect? It's time to discuss what are reasonable objectives. Are your chosen objectives and activities chosen in collaboration with each other? When you two consider things to add to your list, is the answer "no" as often as it is "yes", or do you just keep adding because every new thing feels good?

Before the next quote, I'll mention that "doing" is way over-rated. FEELING is the stuff of secure families.



Elrin said:


> However I am at my wits end on how I could possibly do more. Here's a typical day/week in my life:
> Wake up, make breakfast for the family, make sure lunches are packed and take out the garbage (I am known to forget the garbage about 1 out of 10 times)...
> 
> I work relatively long hours, as is normal for my profession and responsibility level.


Was this choice made in agreement with the wife? Given your working, you're earning high dollars, can you consider paying for help in some of the chores you do? Driving child to school is not quality time with him, so you lose nothing by paying for transportation.

Any chance you could downshift at work? Assuming your "profession and responsibility level" are paying more than you need, can you take a cut in pay and get back to 40 hours a week?

If she did not ask you to put forth this effort for this income, then this may be the heart of the matter...you may only be assuming that she values this. I don't know in your case, as you have not said as much.



Elrin said:


> After work, I pick up my son from swimming (mom took him there) or get him from home to take him to Judo.


This is feeling like a lot of extra-curricular activities for your son. Given his twice-exceptional characteristics, are these activities based on a counselor's recommendation? If so, is the counselor aware that your wife's health prevents her from making a normal level of support contribution?



Elrin said:


> Dinner (she usually makes it since she wants to eat early) usually after that. I clean up the table, kitchen (a deal we made with her cooking dinner and me cleaning up) and house after that. I then help with homework and get my son into bed. After that I either help my wife with cleaning, sorting, E-mails, phone-calls, laundry, paperwork.


My gut feel is you're cleaning a lot. Houses can't be hospital clean, especially not many times a day. Cleaning up after a meal, sure, but are you dusting/vacuuming daily? That would be a bit overboard.

Help your wife sorting what? What needs sorting on a daily basis? If she involves herself in activities that generate more work, I think she should be doing all the sorting/emailing, whatever. Part of how we decide how much to take on is based on how much work it generates for us. My individual decision to start a new activity/hobby, etc, is mine alone and I would not feel ethical in expecting my wife to participate in any of the work involved.

FYI, I did an entire thread about how much paperwork my wife does...I'm overwhelmed by the time she spends doing phone calls, paperwork, bills, and on and on. It's less than what your wife seems to need, and the response I got from all responders is "she needs help", aka, she's way over the top obsessive-compulsive.



Elrin said:


> I'd say 90% of the time I am busy with these tasks until bedtime or beyond. I'll play a game on my mobile phone for 10 minutes before bedtime to try and unwind. I'll have a couple of hours free maybe 1 day a week if I'm lucky. Week-ends are similar. I make breakfast, help with left-over homework, music practise, lessons, chores in & around the house. I'll maybe get a few hours "relaxation" to play with my son.


Overall, it sounds like the two of you have taken on too much.



Elrin said:


> ]
> Is this normal? Do other people also only have 2-3 hours of free time per week? Am I not doing enough?


What is she doing? No, 2-3 hours is not right. I suspect 90% of what you're doing is attempting to achieve perfection which, by definition, is a waste of time.



Elrin said:


> One thing that I think is an issue is that I do things in a different sequence or order of priority than her, and it drives her crazy. She'll expect me to do things the same way she would. Without her telling me which order. Apparently a good husband would know this automatically. When I ask, I'm being difficult. When I say I'm getting to it when she tries to remind me to do something she feels I should already have done first, I'm accused of talking back at her - something that a good husband should not do either. She's allowed to tell me how bad a person I am and I have to be quiet, no arguing.


Well, be careful of the notion that anything should be "fair". You and she will be sensitive to different things, therefore the ways you speak to each other won't necessarily be the same.

I'm always troubled when I hear that someone insists that a task be done one exact way. Years of work in production environments have caused me to sit in probably a thousand hours of class on how to instruct people to do work. All of them said the same thing: unless the product/service is either medically sensitive or national security related, you should only define the desired outcome, not how a person gets there. Not because it's nice, but because it works better. If you tell someone what to do and exactly how, then that person has no ownership of what they're doing - it's no longer their work, it's yours, and you've put them in a position of having to channel your innermost thoughts. Rarely works well.



Elrin said:


> Now I know what you think by now - she sounds horrible! But there is the wonderful side of her too... When the nasty woman is asleep:
> 
> She is fantastic at anticipating my needs and will be extremely thoughtful and prep things for me so that things are ready for me. She works like super-woman on helping our very difficult son with learning about school and life. Believe me, he can be extremely tiring - most people think he's great the first 30 minutes, OK after an hour and can't stand him for a minute longer after 2-3 hours, yet she takes him on day-in, day-out. She works (from home) for 4-6 hours per day, cooks a great, balanced meal in the evenings and drives my son from school, to his therapy sessions and swimming lessons. She'll provide emotional support to the family and make suggestions when other people are out of ideas. She'll deal with contractors for fixing things I don't have the time for, and navigates the medical bureaucracy for getting more help for our son. Warm hugs, really a kind-hearted and very caring person over-all.


I didn't see anything about feelings. Without feelings - emotional support of each other - it hardly would be a romantic relationship. Life is about feelings, emotional and spiritual connectedness. In a sense, it sounds as if the two of you have split apart already and are attempting to pretend to have a marriage based on what you "do" not how you feel, how you listen, how you share energy, emotion and spirit.



Elrin said:


> ]
> 
> We are in our mid-forties now and as we age and have less energy, more aches & pains (especially her since she has poor general health), we have less tolerance and she seems to be the nasty woman more often. I'm worried about menopause - and she's been more ferocious every thiem the nasty one takes over. What to do?


I'm 60 and only in the past year have I seen a change in energy. Humans are vital longer than in any period in history, at 40 if you're low on energy, then it's your lifestyle....I really think the two of you are trying to do far more tasks than the two of you can manage, given your work schedules and her health and the high support needs of your son.

Have the two of you had a good talk about what is reasonable?

Your son has twice-exceptional needs (your words). If these needs mean that he will never integrate with society as normal, then accept it and don't try to compensate. I don't know his condition and in any case, I'm not a counselor on the matter, hopefully you have a proper expert to consult with.

I've been diagnosed with two different mental conditions and have challenged eyesight that prevented me from playing sports as a kid - no social life until college. I have never been able to integrate with normal culture in any kind of an easy way. My parents, thankfully, didn't get in my way and allowed me to find where I was comfortable. I naturally gravitated toward hobbies that I could do without friends, turned one of them into a decent career, so I did OK financially. Only now am I really starting to grapple with what it will take for me to develop a social life - knowing all the well that it'll never be easy, I'll have to be more watchful of things I don't know yet, I have to get out of my comfort zone of doing projects at home by myself, etc. I bet your son also, given the opportunity, can find his own way.

Your wife has health problems. Apparently this inhibits her ability to contribute. Rather than expect the husband to step up and compensate, how about dialing back expectations as a couple? Or, how about hiring someone to assist in the physical chores, leaving her more energy to work on more crucial things such as her own job or your son's needs?

I've seen people with serious health problems pretend they can compensate. Then end up only noticing the physical compensation, and not that they're driving themselves crazy in the attempt.

Why are you doing all this? Who told you to? What goals are driving you to live such frantic lives? What expectations do the two of you have for doing all this?

DD


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## Elrin (Jan 23, 2017)

DustyDog said:


> Before the next quote, I'll mention that "doing" is way over-rated. FEELING is the stuff of secure families.





DustyDog said:


> I didn't see anything about feelings. Without feelings - emotional support of each other - it hardly would be a romantic relationship. Life is about feelings, emotional and spiritual connectedness. In a sense, it sounds as if the two of you have split apart already and are attempting to pretend to have a marriage based on what you "do" not how you feel, how you listen, how you share energy, emotion and spirit.


I think I get what you mean - my wife says the exact opposite. She says feeling is over-rated, and doing is the only thing that counts. We're unusual in the fact that I'm the one who wants to talk about feelings and she does not (I guess the prototypical family is the other way around). I sometimes feel like that too - it feels like I'm pretending to go on, perhaps hoping that going while we through the motions, she will realize what she has and how much it means...



DustyDog said:


> This is feeling like a lot of extra-curricular activities for your son. Given his twice-exceptional characteristics, are these activities based on a counselor's recommendation? If so, is the counselor aware that your wife's health prevents her from making a normal level of support contribution?





DustyDog said:


> Your son has twice-exceptional needs (your words). If these needs mean that he will never integrate with society as normal, then accept it and don't try to compensate. I don't know his condition and in any case, I'm not a counselor on the matter, hopefully you have a proper expert to consult with.
> 
> I've been diagnosed with two different mental conditions and have challenged eyesight that prevented me from playing sports as a kid - no social life until college. I have never been able to integrate with normal culture in any kind of an easy way. My parents, thankfully, didn't get in my way and allowed me to find where I was comfortable. I naturally gravitated toward hobbies that I could do without friends, turned one of them into a decent career, so I did OK financially. Only now am I really starting to grapple with what it will take for me to develop a social life - knowing all the well that it'll never be easy, I'll have to be more watchful of things I don't know yet, I have to get out of my comfort zone of doing projects at home by myself, etc. I bet your son also, given the opportunity, can find his own way.


Yes - a lot of them is due to counselor's recommendations. It is "assumed" that all families have loads of free time to spend on their kids during working hours. I guess it's the same assumption that at least one parent does not work. Even when you let health professionals, etc. know about the fact that both of us work, they just revert back to the pre-existing assumption in no time flat. What the system does not do (and the system has huge gaping holes), the parents have to fill in themselves. Note that we have no financial support from the government, school-system, social programs, etc. for our son. It's all from us - and it's my choice to then support him to the best of my ability. I do it because not having that support means I just let him fall down and struggle all his life. If he was severely disabled and never able to function in society/life, it would be one thing - one could make peace with that, but he is one of those kids who will either become a total disaster or a total superhero. He will never be "average". He will be exceptional, and I will help him to not go down the wrong path as much as I can. Imagine a someone with a huge amount of potential, but he does not have the ability to unlock it himself. His incredibly high IQ is hindered by his disabilities. People like him are documented to be at high risk of drug use, early suicide, violence and crime. I won't be able to live with myself if that were to happen.

I could write much, much more, but that would probably be best left for a cross-post in another part of the forums. Suffice to say that with help, our son can be a successful and contributing member of society. Without, he will likely wither and struggle all his life.




DustyDog said:


> Overall, it sounds like the two of you have taken on too much.


You can say that again. It's even something we argue about. I try to convince her that we don;t need to do so much. She's incredibly driven - always have been. Being driven is good if you are directing it properly, but in our case, she's driving herself and by extension, her family well beyond what we all can handle. No-one in our family has the same amount of free time as our peers. Me, her, our son. If she could get the cat to work harder, she would...




DustyDog said:


> What is she doing? No, 2-3 hours is not right. I suspect 90% of what you're doing is attempting to achieve perfection which, by definition, is a waste of time.


She's working close to that much. Like I said, she's incredibly driven. However, she does take naps during the day sometimes, and binge-watches her tv-dramas. (Spoiler: Those don't count) When I hint about those, it's all justified by "I'm tired. You are making me tired because you don't do enough so I can't get enough rest".



DustyDog said:


> I didn't see anything about feelings. Without feelings - emotional support of each other - it hardly would be a romantic relationship. Life is about feelings, emotional and spiritual connectedness. In a sense, it sounds as if the two of you have split apart already and are attempting to pretend to have a marriage based on what you "do" not how you feel, how you listen, how you share energy, emotion and spirit.





DustyDog said:


> Your wife has health problems. Apparently this inhibits her ability to contribute. Rather than expect the husband to step up and compensate, how about dialing back expectations as a couple? Or, how about hiring someone to assist in the physical chores, leaving her more energy to work on more crucial things such as her own job or your son's needs?
> 
> I've seen people with serious health problems pretend they can compensate. Then end up only noticing the physical compensation, and not that they're driving themselves crazy in the attempt.
> 
> ...


She has health problems, but refuses to bow down. It's an admirable characteristic, when directed properly. She's also a perfectionist and incredibly smart, but struggles to see herself from the outside. 

You ask why - we both have a lot of ambition and drive, but that's not the full reason. It's because by now we have forgotten how to relax, forgotten how to dial it back. I haven't had a relaxing holiday since 2003. Yes, we've gone away visiting family on a frantic travel schedule, but the last time I relaxed on a beach (or something) with nothing to do was a long-long time ago. It may be hard to believe, but she has never been on that kind of holiday. I have been trying since I have met her to get her to go on a nice all-inclusive holiday - with no success (yet).

I hope (and dream) that we will be able to dial the frantic hussle of our modern lives down. Some of it has been our own doing, others just plain bad luck.


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## Elrin (Jan 23, 2017)

Thanks everybody for your continued support! I've got some reading to do (hopefully I can sneak that in sometime...).

Update:

She's warmed up to me at least while asleep. She's back at snuggling up to me while sleeping. It confuses the hell out of me - when she wakes up, she realizes she's close and shifts away. Is it her sub-conscious mind at work? It doesn't help that I am a very tactile person and loves it when she snuggles up...

On the other side, she's still researching real-estate prices and finding ways to stage the house for sale. When I say "hey that looks nice", she goes, "Yes, it will make the house easier to sell". Gah! She's also talking to the accountant asking about how to arrange capital gains on our investments - long term stuff for our retirement...

Flip back to the other side and she's wanting to invest in prepping a veggie garden to grow stuff for our family - something that will take time to develop. She also wants to buy an empty lot somewhere together... She also researches high-schools in our area (we're still years away from that).

Why invest together with some-one you plan to split up with? Why stage a house to sell that you want to stay in? Why look for schools 3 years ahead when you want to leave? 

I just don't know...

Oh and she's planning a long trip overseas to visit her family (by herself) in December. One one side I think that's a good idea - rest, recharge, see family, get some context. On another side I'm insecure enough in our relationship that I'm worried she'll pull the plug while she's away.

... still of two minds...


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

Elrin said:


> There are some parts of her argument that I sadly am starting to agree with, and other parts that I don't.
> - Yes, I might just not be a good match for her, and we've taken this long to figure it out - also sticking together for the sake of our son.
> - *She says openly (to him as well) that she does not have any feeling of love anymore to our son. They fight viciously almost every day. She's told him that she is leaving at some unknown time too. This is not good for any child.*


I'm going to respond to this post, particularly the bolded section. 

Why are you letting your wife abuse your son? Jesus Christ dude. Sack up. The next time this happens, grab her by the wrist and walk her out of your house. And tell her she can come back when she's not going to abuse her own damn son.

Dude, a child is completely dependent upon their parents for everything. For food. For shelter. For stability. For education. Emotional development. A child can't stand up for themselves. Especially not to a parent. There is no relationship in the world with a greater power disparity than that of mother to child. Abuse of power is bad, but abuse of this power is by definition the worst. A threat of abandonment may as well be a death threat to a child. How the **** can you let someone do that to your own flesh and blood, who depends on you to protect them?

Be a man. Be a father. Do the right thing. Protect your kid.


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## Elrin (Jan 23, 2017)

Ugh...

I've lost 30lbs of weight (and I was at my ideal weight already), my body is packing it in. I'm still losing 2lbs per day. I literally cannot do more, yet tonight she berated me again. Today I went to see the surgeon for a consultation for exploratory surgery to see what's wrong with me, and when I asked her after the appointment to keep next Thursday open, she didn't want to cancel one of her regular clients to come and pick me up afterwards. "Just use a taxi", she said. 

Tonight, with me sitting down after 10pm for the first time to relax for a few minutes, she lays into me about how I don't care about her, how am unreasonable in expecting her to do things because she has more time. She told me that she does not care that I am sick - she won't (and have not) do anything for me. Talked about some specialist in town who works full time and still picks up the kids from school and cooks. Lucky ****** has control over his schedule - I don't, but I get compared piece-by-piece against every other person she meets. So-and-so cleans the house, that guy let his wife go on nice vacations, this guy takes out the garbage, that guy always plays with his kids every day, so-and-so does all the laundry, etc.... I need to be all those guys wrapped into one with none of the liberties or "me time" those guys get.

Oh and when I'm sick, she looks at me like I'm pathetic. Calls me pathetic and weak too. Men are not supposed to get sick or have weaknesses. They're not supposed to talk back when their wife gives them a hard time. Gah... I'm sick now, and no surprise, I'm in trouble for not doing enough. I went shopping yesterday while I took a sick-day off from work due to being sick because I noticed she's not getting to it. No mention of that of course, and if I mention it I'm arguing. She brought up the time I raised my voice at her to stop her from yelling at our son - citing that as a turning point where she realised that I don't care for her. I''m supposed to be 100% on her side no matter what.

I'm sick, tired, exhausted, depressed, sad, and lost. It's really starting to feel like she is out to hurt me as much as she can. I don;t know how I am going to be able to pull through this.


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## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

One of the happiest milestone days of my life over the last thirty years was the day my wife (ex) moved out and left the kids with me. After twenty years of trying to make an ungrateful entitled narcissist happy I was exhausted at trying, her leaving was such a relief.

OP you need to get her out of your life, for your sake and your sons. She is emotionally damaging both of you, I can appreciate your feelings of obligation but she is ruining your lives, she needs to go. Personally I'm not sure why you didn't throw her out the minute she turned her hate toward your child, it's one thing to put up with it yourself, but to let your child be emotionally bullied is terrible parenting. Where's your obligation to him?


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

Elrin said:


> Ugh...
> 
> I've lost 30lbs of weight (and I was at my ideal weight already), my body is packing it in. I'm still losing 2lbs per day. I literally cannot do more, yet tonight she berated me again. Today I went to see the surgeon for a consultation for exploratory surgery to see what's wrong with me, and when I asked her after the appointment to keep next Thursday open, she didn't want to cancel one of her regular clients to come and pick me up afterwards. "Just use a taxi", she said.
> 
> ...



You sir are a saint for putting up with all this emotional blackmail. What ever illness you have she is certainly making it worse. She appears to have a personality disorder and if she will not work on fixing it that you for the sake of yourself and your children should not die young waiting for it to fix itself. Pack her suitcase with a ticket with wherever she wants to go and drive her to the airport. If she refuses to get on the plane leave her at the airport. Tell her to go stay at a hotel, to go find an apartment. Remind her that is what she wants and your are not putting up with her constant streams of insults any more, that that part of your life is over.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

Elrin said:


> Ugh...
> 
> I've lost 30lbs of weight (and I was at my ideal weight already), my body is packing it in. I'm still losing 2lbs per day. I literally cannot do more, yet tonight she berated me again. Today I went to see the surgeon for a consultation for exploratory surgery to see what's wrong with me, and when I asked her after the appointment to keep next Thursday open, she didn't want to cancel one of her regular clients to come and pick me up afterwards. "Just use a taxi", she said.
> 
> ...


Dude, divorce this harpy. Cut her out of your life. Long-term high levels of stress causes all sorts of physical and emotional ailments. Elevated cortisol levels over long periods causes cancer, heart problems, and all sorts of other very nasty things. She is abusive to you and your son. Don't let this continue. Even if you're willing to put up with it, don't let it go on for your kid's sake. Think about his future, and whether or not you want him to grow up thinking this is how a family functions. Do you want him to grow up thinking that his mother is an example of how women should treat their husbands? That his father's current tolerance of this is what he should do in the face of it? Because that's the example being set.

It's terrifying, I know. But you need to do what's right for your kid, and for you. If you need to, cut back on work first, so you can take over primary care of your kid to demonstrate you are the primary custodian in court, and then press for full custody. Do NOT leave your kid in the care of this person.


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