# Negative Nancy or typical TAM story



## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

I'm not sure if my relationship is a future typical TAM story of a failed relationship or if I'm just projecting and being negative. In my last relationship my partner complained that I often focused on the negatives. I concur, back then I used to compare my relationship to others a lot. Now I just don't know. 

Keeping a tidy house is extremely important to me. My partner is well aware of this as it is often a source of contention between us and I've communicated to him that this is among my top 3 needs. I was raised in a very structured home and had assigned chores for as long as I can remember. There was little structure in his and his mom simply expected the kids to recognize what needed to be done otherwise there would be trouble. Hence it was clear that he didn't share the same standards from the beginning. I admit he has made some progress since then so I'm not sure if I'm being too demanding or if I'm right in being super concerned. It's the little things that add up and drive me nuts: eg. taking off shoes and leaving them in the middle of the way and just leaving stuff lying around in general, being ok with the sink being filthy, ok with stains in the toilet, ok keeping his toothbrush in a disgusting container. It doesn't drain so whatever is dripping from his toothbrush has accumulated and turned to this gross mushy who knows what on the bottom. I pointed it out when I first moved in (almost 4 months ago), he hasn't cleaned it and it grosses me out every time he puts the tube of toothpaste in there.

I worry that I'll end up being in a typical relationship where the woman does the majority of the work but mostly I worry about how it will be exponentially more difficult when kids are brought into the picture. I feel the resentment growing in me, I sense a decline in my sexual desire and I'm just having an overall hard time being upbeat with my partner and feeling connected to him. Beyond my low mood, I'm not sure he's even aware of how deeply everything is affecting me. I find myself crying all the time like a ****ing retard, it's disgusting. It makes me feel helpless, pitiful and even more sad. I hate the mess I am in those moments. 

I tried to talk to him recently when he came to bed. I started out by asking if he had any clue as to why I've been so withdrawn. He did; he said he thought it was because I felt like I did a lot of house work over the weekend and he didn't help. He also noticed my mood change when we were at the park but did not know why. I said ok and asked how did that situation play out from his perspective. He said he had a lot of errands to run and didn't really have time to help. It's true, he had plenty errands but I clarified that the weekend wasn't the issue. It was all the days leading up to the weekend. Plus a lack of pda on the 2 occasions when we went out over the weekend. We don't have to kiss, let's hold hands, look into my eyes when I talk to you, hug me, hold me, do something! But least of all, don't ask the waiter for the sports channel. Sigh. On both occasions the place was the perfect couples spot: one a beautiful resort set by a river with no couple but us in sight; the other a family event with live performances at a beautiful park downtown. I admitted that I was already feeling a little neglected because it was right after my period and there's not much sexual play during that time. If I don't initiate (which always ends with me sucking his ****, not because he asks but because I love doing it) then there's no play. I said there's more to sex than just piv and I just was a little desperate for some attention from my man. Getting none and then the cleanliness stuff really just got me feeling down. 

I say I took long to bring everything up as I'm finding it difficult to talk about because the cleaning has come up many times before (last time was about 2 weeks prior) and the intimacy thing is a little embarrassing and uncomfortable to discuss. He says in his usual monotone voice that it sucks that I feel that way etc., a few sentences before he went quiet. I realize he's fallen asleep and I just go straight to get a smoke because I know I will stay awake crying about this and smoking will put me right to sleep.

The following day he asks me to accompany him on a drive somewhere. I grumble to make it clear that I don't want to but he presses. In the car he apologises that he was super tired and ended up falling asleep. He asks me: "so I was a jerk at xyz (the resort) huh?' I reluctantly respond: "no, I wouldn't say that". I'm reluctant because deep down I don't want to talk about it because I'm tired of talking about the cleaning issue and the intimacy thing is just embarrassing. We go on with our day, him attempting to reconcile by using typical nicknames he knows I love and just trying to be nice in general. In the past I would have been responsive because I'm always eager to go back to normal but this time I'm really hurting inside and I just can't. How is he not interested in hearing more about the issues, in finding out how best he can avoid them recurring, in providing a more appropriate response in general? How could he realize the cleanliness was an issue and just not say anything about it in the moment. Why if he realized he was so tired could he not just say that he's too tired to stay awake and suggest an alternative time. Why this monotone voice when I try to discuss issues bothering me especially after I've mentioned that it's a turn off. It just makes me even more sad and wish I never brought anything up because he sounds so sad and pitiful when he does it. 

I'm confused as to whether I'm exaggerating our issues and if I should really be concerned about our future. He's a great partner in many ways and when things are great I feel so good about us. The most confident I've felt in any relationship. I recognize some of his errors (e.g. rugsweeping difficult issues and underestimating the amount of work required to stay in love) because I made these mistakes in my last relationship. I've been able to grow through reflection and through the experiences and advice shared on TAM.

We've been together for 5 years. We're both 27. I moved in 4 months ago.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Try having both of you read a couple of books: His Needs, Her Needs, and The 5 Love Languages. Go through and do the questions to find out what BOTH of your needs are. He may not realize that him helping around the house is a real need of yours. (Acts of service, I believe...) He may just think you are being a picky nag. Having it spelled out for him that way could help him with trying to meet that need for you. This also gives YOU a chance to see what his needs are and make sure you meet those for him as well.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

He needs to clean house.

Pick up his dirty clothes, wash them, fold them put them in his bag.

Get his shaving stuff, put ii in his bag.

Get his toothbrush, clean if real good. Clean the container real good. Put both in his bag.

Walk around the house and pick up all his clutter, clean it and put it in the bag. 

He then needs to snap shut the bag, tie a rope around it and sling it over his shoulder.

Then he needs to go to the front closet, retrieve the broom and step outside.

He then should put the broom between his legs and fly the flutch out of Dodge Her Stadium.

And leave his OCD wife to her own devices. 

You have a right to your likes and dislikes, your needs and demands.

He has a right to weigh your needs against his deeds. And then he will "Off and A-Weigh" himself, finding some other less weighty wench to turn his nut.

In short: You two are not compatible.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

He is who he is.

Don't marry someone and then try to change them.

Sounds like incompatibility to me.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

If you have just moved in together, give it time. 

Looking back, I think the hardest time for me was the first year of living together with my husband, his parents spoiled him and he knew nothing about cooking, running/maintaining a household. He still doesn't get or do things, throws his stuff anywhere, it drives me crazy at times still. 

It's a hard adjustment and does affect the relationship dynamic and he may never meet your standards completely but my advice would be instead of talking about with him, start getting him involved physically, ask him to "help" you doing some cleaning, once he gets it, he should be able to do it when you ask in the future. 


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## KJ_Simmons (Jan 12, 2016)

I thought I was finally reading a case where it 'really is about the dishes', but alas, as I read further I think the poor dishes are yet again being made a scapegoat by a frustrated wife! The real and more painful issue seems to be the lack of attention and intimacy on his part, the cleanliness is just a branch off the same lack of attentiveness to my needs tree.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

I have seen far too many people made thoroughly unhappy because they are made to feel like walking on eggshells in their own home. I have also seen children become very anxious over the most normal things because they have an OCD parent. 

A friend of mine likes her house pristine. Her preferred activity for her days off is to clean the house from top to bottom. A couple of years ago her she came home from lunch with me to find her husband waiting for her with his bags packed and an apartment rented. His reason for leaving was 'he couldn't cope with her constant nagging about keeping the house clean'. Her daughter (my daughters friend) is a nervous wreck and will become very upset if she spills a drink, or makes a mess. She was at our house and her mother called her angrily telling her to go home and clean the shower cubicle - she left in tears. 

There is nothing wrong with having high standards, but you cannot expect the people you live with to match them. You have to meet in the middle - give and take. If neither of you can meet half way and compromise you will make each other miserable. 

I could list many 'disgusting' habits of my husband and after many attempts to politely ask him not to do that, I have settle with that is who he is and its not my job to change it. i.e he never cleans the sink after washing the dishes - I always have to do that for him. He never cleans the bin when he changes the bag - I have to do it. He dumps his work bag on the floor when he gets in - I pick it up. He leaves the car in a mess (out of sight out of mind) I have to go in with a bag and chuck out his junk. He doesn't wipe out the oven (it wouldn't get done unless I do it. I have to wash his brushes. I hang his clothes up because he takes his pile and just dumps them in the dressing room (after they have been ironed).

I am sure I do lots of things that irritate him:
I leave the vacuum cleaner out after I use it because I get distracted
I hate cutting the grass and leave it far too long so it gets shaggy and difficult to cut
I leave secateurs out in the garden and they get lost
I balance nail polish on the laptop whilst I do my nails
Our bedroom is cluttered with all my makeup and hair stuff.
I like lots of cushions on the bed which he complains gets in the way
When putting tools back in the garage I just shove them on a table because I'm lazy.
My long hair sheds badly and clogs up the plug - he used to complain a lot about that

At some point you have to work around each others ways or it will drive you both crazy.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

The two of you have different standards of cleanliness. What always happens in these situations is that the person who cares more does most of the work. Which is/will be you.

People don't change, especially not about levels of cleanliness. These are things that we learn from our FOO (or rebel against). My mother never did any housework; she thought it was a waste of time, and there were better things to do with her time. (She felt the same way about parenting. But I digress.) So our house was a disaster. All the time. Way worse than your typical, "Sorry the house is cluttered, but we have two kids" messy. She didn't care that there were other people living there, that she was creating an unpleasant home environment for them. My sister and I both reacted in different ways. I was kept at home; I didn't go to pre-school, and my mother never took me on play dates to other people's houses, so I thought that the state of our home was NORMAL. So, as an adult... my room is a disaster (I have housemates). I suck at keeping things tidy, because I never learned how. It's a struggle for me to clean up after myself in the shared spaces, but somehow I manage to do it. My sister was better socialized than I when she was young, and she realized _this isn't normal_... so she started cleaning the house. My mother's bad behavior was normalized and rewarded by a little girl who hated living in a dirty house, and my mother took advantage of that. Now, as an adult... my sister's house is pristine all the time, even with two kids under 6 and a newborn (the kids help clean, even!).

Sorry for the tangent.

My point is, you're the one who cares the most. So you will be doing most of the cleaning now, and you will continue doing so for the duration of this relationship. How do you feel about that? You can resent him and try to get him to help, but he's not going to change. Or, you can accept it, and think of it as doing a loving act of service for your partner. (FlyLady calls it "blessing your family" or something like that.)

You can't control someone else's behavior. The only thing you can control is yourself and your reaction to it. 

Stop trying to control your partner, and consider your own reaction instead, and whether you need an attitude adjustment in order for this relationship to work.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

This is tough and happens in many relationships where standards of cleanliness and general tidiness are not the same. Further, there are males who think that the female in their life is generally the maid, the chef, the driver, and the go to for sex because that is their value system and because the female does everything for them.
You may have some form of OCD, though what you describe would put most people off, he sounds like a bit of a slob.
1 YOu are still young, big plus point for future options (leave or stay)
2. you cannot change him, but he may choose to change for you
3. you could close your eyes to his mess and refuse to pick up after him, keep your stuff clean, do not enable him. 
4. STOP enabling him
If you cannot take it, then consider moving on as you are not compatible.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Counselling. Counselling is what I would recommend.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

aine said:


> This is tough and happens in many relationships where standards of cleanliness and general tidiness are not the same. Further, there are males who think that the female in their life is generally the maid, the chef, the driver, and the go to for sex because that is their value system and because the female does everything for them.


Maid, Chef, Driver, Sex Partner.

The first three are negotiable. 

The last one better not be "Negotiable".

That one is the wife's job. No contracting that one out, Eh?


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

What brings you happiness? Answer carefully. (if you choose to)
If it's your husband and the things he does with you, for you, to you------ you're going to be unhappy.

He can work on the cleanliness and helping accomplish daily chores. BUT, he can't be the one that brings you happiness by constantly supplying you with extracurricular activities and fabulous sex.
You have got to start focusing on actively taking steps toward getting involved in activities that bring you happiness that have nothing to do with him. 

It is incredibly easy for people that have no hobbies or careers that bring them joy to start blaming their unhappiness on their sign. other. You appear to be falling in that trap.

Tell him specifically what chores he is to do. Make it crystal clear what you expect--- and make it FAIR.
And if he doesn't take care of it, jump his case about it. If he is making an honest effort to get those things done--- shut your mouth and learn to be happy without your partner constantly having to worry about YOUR cleanliness needs.

I think you need to also be crystal clear on how you want and need more affection and physical contact and foreplay during sex. Men, especially young ones, don't have a clue what women want and need. We need to be told and told plainly. 

Men are not typically interested in a lot of the emotional, time-consuming, touchy-feely, romantic stuff that women are really needing. They have to be coached. A LOT. And they have to be willing to learn. 

What you are doing is going to drive him away with constant complaining and making him feel like he can't please you. You've got to be specific, be clear, be detailed. Do you expect your man to be considering every single one of your daily needs ALL THE TIME? What kind of needs are you attending to of HIS? If the relationship is unbalanced in your mind, tell him exactly what he needs to do to balance it and if he can't, then leave and move on. That's about all one can do.
Good luck, JMO about things.....


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

I feel sorry for you, because I have some of the same tendencies as you (to want things a certain way, and find it hard to cope with anything less). I know how awful it feels internally to deal with an environment that goes against what you want. 

The thing is, I attribute that to my anxiety disorder. Not that I want things clean or organized a certain way...but the degree of discomfort it causes me when I am forced to be around anything different. It wasn't the only symptom of my anxiety disorder but once I sought treatment for it, the feelings you describe have come back down to a regular level. I'm still grossed out by certain things but I'm not OCD about it. 

You've been with him for 5 years so I assume you knew what his personal living habits were like before you moved in? And it's natural to experience a decline in PDA after so many years. I still get mad at my H when I've gone into an evening thinking it would be a romantic getaway and then it's a boring night of watching the game at the bar (as an example) but I definitely don't expect all of our various outings to be romance filled. I'm totally fine with eating in silence once in awhile or sitting on opposite sides of the table without touching each other.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

I think the resentment is there and growing because I feel like I go above and beyond to satisfy his needs. He needs affirmation and compliments for his actions, he loves "****ing" (as opposed to tame love-making), he loves being taken care of (eg. me giving him mani/pedicures, massages etc), he loves intelligent conversation and he loves his dogs. The first 4 are easy to do because I love that look of satisfaction on his face during/after and how he just melts. The latter was the hardest as I've never liked dogs because they're so completely dependent on their owners. Now all 4 dogs love me and I'm more than happy to participate in all aspects of their caretaking EXCEPT cleaning the piss/**** of the 2 puppies. I can only do so much before I feel the uncontrollable need to hurl.

I do have a little OCD about cleaning but I feel I've relaxed a lot to avoid it being a constant issue. I can now deal with dirty dishes staying overnight, and the pots/baking dishes "needing to soak" for days, dishes piling up in the room or him piling up clothes on the chair in the room. I'm mostly asking that stuff be put together and he picks up after himself so we don't have to spend our weekends cleaning. I just can't deal with the place looking cluttered all over and obvious nastiness (like poo stains in the toilet). It's hard for me to feel comfortable in that environment.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

He has to change to be with you a great deal. Harsh but true. Old saying: men marry and hope their wife never change, woman marry potential knowing their husband will grow: both are doomed to failed expectations. 

At a pre-cana event a couple spoke to a large group. They entered the room, went speakers stand and discussed many of the issues you raised. Their devotion to each seemed to physically filled the room. They finished up and left. The moderator then came back and revealed the wife had become legally blind a decade ago. I was stunned. You would never had known, they moved so gracefully together. 

Yes to MC, try to find away but acknowledge there might not be.


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

I think unless you can get past the resentment you have you guys are not compatible.
I get it...I'm super crazy when it comes to cleaning and messes. It drives me crazy when stuff is just left out instead back on their proper places.
But you have to let go of some of that.
This is your thing...if you want the house spotless all the time then you will have to achieve that. Sure your SO can help you out but don't expect him to change to have the same huge standards you have.
When you throw kids in the mix what are you going to do when there are toys all over?
Instead of asking him to keep it spotless maybe see if he can help you with a bit of the cleaning. I.e. Throwing dirty launder in hamper etc but i think you're being unrealistic that you can try to change him to the point of having your mind frame with cleanliness.
Respect is the major thing...respect for the fact that like things a certain way and trying to help you
Maintain that by putting dishes in dish washer...throwing dirty laundry in hamper etc.
JMO.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Keke24 said:


> I think the resentment is there and growing because I feel like I go above and beyond to satisfy his needs. He needs affirmation and compliments for his actions, he loves "****ing" (as opposed to tame love-making), he loves being taken care of (eg. me giving him mani/pedicures, massages etc), he loves intelligent conversation and he loves his dogs. The first 4 are easy to do because I love that look of satisfaction on his face during/after and how he just melts. The latter was the hardest as I've never liked dogs because they're so completely dependent on their owners. Now all 4 dogs love me and I'm more than happy to participate in all aspects of their caretaking EXCEPT cleaning the piss/**** of the 2 puppies.


He sounds incredibly SELFISH in bed, for starters. It sounds as though your entire sex life consists of you giving him oral sex and you getting nothing in return before he jumps on and starts pounding away like a jackrabbit. Be still my beating heart.



> I do have a little OCD about cleaning but I feel I've relaxed a lot to avoid it being a constant issue. I can now deal with dirty dishes staying overnight, and the pots/baking dishes "needing to soak" for days, dishes piling up in the room or him piling up clothes on the chair in the room.


I think the *real* problem here is his self entitled, lazy ass attitude that a sink full of dirty dishes is YOUR problem to solve, not his. I guarantee you that if you kept that sink full of dirty dishes for 4 days, they'd still be there on day #5. Because he's just self-entitled enough to believe it's not HIS problem.

It's yours.

That's the REAL issue. In his self-absorbed world, the dish fairy will clean those dishes, and the laundry fairy will pick up his clothes and launder them, and the housecleaning fairy will scrub his soiled toilets, change his bed, dust his furniture, scrub everything clean, mop the floors and vacuum up the hair from his 4 dogs so he can magically come home every night and lay his lazy ass down on the couch without a worry in the world.



> He said he had a lot of errands to run and didn't really have time to help. It's true, he had plenty errands but I clarified that the weekend wasn't the issue.


Yeah, and I'm willing to bet all those 'errands' were for stuff for himself, not for you. This is just more of the self-entitled sh*t attitude I just mentioned. He thinks cleaning is YOUR job and if he can '_help_' you, he will. As though he's doing YOU some kind of favor when in reality, it's *doing his share*. He lives there too, does he not?

You're feeling the resentment. And it gets worse the longer you work your ass off and give, give, give while he does NOTHING. You think you're feeling it now? Give it another 10 years. LOL. He's selfish *IN *bed, selfish *OUT* of bed, and you're rewarding that sh*t behavior with pedicures and massages? 

This is a typical case of you knocking yourself out on a daily basis trying so hard to please him and continually being disappointed that you're getting absolutely nothing in return for your efforts. You've created a dynamic where you just give continually and he just *takes *continually.

Your biggest problem is voicing how disappointed you are that the scales are so unfairly balanced. But even when you did try to broach the subject, you got a lame ass excuse about him needing to do 'errands' all day as though that was the ONLY time he's ever shirked household responsibilities when in reality, he's done it every single day since you moved in and became his housemaid. And then he fell asleep in the middle of the conversation.

Could this guy BE any more self-entitled?

Find your voice, tell him the household responsibilities will be SHARED going forward and then decide whose going to do what and STICK to it. Too damned bad if he doesn't like it. You weren't put on this earth to cater to him and the sooner he learns that, the better.

As far as his selfishness in bed, that's something you'll have to broach after you've settled the household division of chores. Something tells me he got his sex education from porn and has no clue how to please a woman. I guess you'll have to teach him that, too.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

Thanks for listening and the advice. @3Xnocharm I think the books you suggested will make good bedside reading for both of us. I will surely get them.

@MrsAldi: I think you're right about needing to give things time. While we've been together for 5 years, 4 months of living together is a short period of time and I should give him more time to adjust to my standards. I will keep in mind that he may never meet them completely, that is asking a lot. It took my parents about 16 years of home training to get me this way...

@KJ_Simmons: I think you hit on a good point there. I agree the overarching problem is a lack of attentiveness that can explain his sluggish approach to cleaning. As mentioned before he has improved and I have been surprised on occasion in the past when he'll randomly pick up everything he has lying around. It happens in rare short bursts when he's unoccupied and bored.

@FeministInPink: That's a good way of putting it. I can see how that parallels with his dogs. While I do make an effort with the dogs they are naturally his priority not mines and he is willing to do all of the work associated with them without ever being resentful. If I didn't offer to help he wouldn't ask unless he absolutely had 0 time to feed/bathe/clean up after them. Thank you, that really helps to put things in perspective.

@aine: Stop enabling, you are so right? While I may be turned off about his stuff being everywhere, no one is forcing me to pick up after him. Indeed it would take a lot of pressure if I can just learn to let him live in his mess and create my own pockets of clean haven around me.

@MattMatt: I agree, counselling would make this much easier to work through while also helping us address other issues in our relationship. However counselling here is very uncommon as mental health in general is underappreciated in the Caribbean. Hence it is cost-prohibitive to a young couple like us without much disposable income.

@Evinrude58: I'm actually just starting my career and I do have interesting hobbies (scuba diving, yoga instruction, sailing etc) so that aspect of my life brings me immense joy. However I do think you're onto something. I did just leave my country to move to his and I know no one here besides him. So I do feel utterly reliant on him in that regards and I secretly hate that because I've been independent since 16. The last thing I want to be is a nag. I think setting chores is a good idea; easy and efficient while establishing accountability. Thank you!

@kag123: With regards to the PDA, I think it gets to me because he is needy in his own way. He needs more cuddling and closeness in bed and after sex than I do. To the point where sometimes I have to just wait till he falls asleep so I can get him off me. And he literally whimpers with pleasure when I respond to his needs for closeness and touch. But that only happens at home lol or in the car. It used to turn me off in the beginning as I interpreted it as him acting like a baby and that took away from his manliness in my mind. If I can make the effort to meet these needs then he can make the effort to be more close to me in public.

@She'sStillGotIt: Whoa, that was really harsh. He's not as bad as you seem to think and now I'm wondering if maybe I presented the information in a way that put him in that light. If I did, then I would be exaggerating. The errands he ran were for his mom, she doesn't drive. However you are correct, I could have voiced my opinion in a better way. With patience rather than with constant exasperation. And I'm actually guilty of being more of a porn fanatic than he is


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

God, so many issues to discuss.


Keke24 said:


> Keeping a tidy house is extremely important to me. My partner is well aware of this as it is often a source of contention between us and I've communicated to him that this is among my top 3 needs. It was clear that he didn't share the same standards from the beginning. I admit he has made some progress since then so I'm not sure if I'm being too demanding or if I'm right in being super concerned.


You are being too demanding. It's important to realize that this is YOUR need, not his, and you can't turn him into someone who cares. He never will; he doesn't even SEE the crap, let alone see that it needs done. I'm married to the same guy. What you CAN do is make changes in how the two of you operate. Experts will tell you that YOU need to be in charge of the things that matter to you and he will be in charge of what matters more to him. 

One suggestion is to make a list on posterboard of all the things that have to be done for the home. Once it's all written down, you take turns claiming responsibility for items. This way, you each take on work, so the resentment will fade once you realize he IS doing things for the family; but also, if a particular thing bugs you more than him, like the toothpaste holder, it's YOU who needs to be responsible for cleaning it. Like if the way the dishwasher is filled is really important to you - it drives you crazy if people just throw stuff in there any old way, it needs to be YOU who loads the dishwasher. IOW, stop trying to change him. If you take turns claiming responsibility (and assuming he'll actually do the things he accepts), you'll both be supporting the family in a less stressful way.

For something like shoes, you may consider getting a box by the door for the shoes to come off, but I was never able to train my H to use it; is it a hill to die on? If not, then make that one of your responsibilities - picking up the shoes every night.



> I tried to talk to him recently when he came to bed.


Why would you ask a man to have a serious talk at bedtime? 



> I started out by asking if he had any clue as to why I've been so withdrawn. He did; he said he thought it was because I felt like I did a lot of house work over the weekend and he didn't help. He also noticed my mood change when we were at the park but did not know why. I said ok and asked how did that situation play out from his perspective. He said he had a lot of errands to run and didn't really have time to help. It's true, he had plenty errands but I clarified that the weekend wasn't the issue. It was all the days leading up to the weekend.


This was a good way to have this conversation. Just not at bedtime. I recommend that people have a 'state of the marriage' meeting once a month, like on Sunday night, where you both agree to talk without anger or defensiveness, in the spirit of creating a happy relationship for BOTH of you.

Now, try to remember that while your top need is cleanliness and order, but his top need (aside from sex) is most likely fun. So everytime you let yourself get to the level of moping, crying, or griping, you're losing points with him. You're Love Busting him. You're poking holes into his 'love bucket' where you're supposed to be filling that bucket with love. Every LB you do pokes a hole and, if enough, any loving you give him just flows right out the holes so that he stops being in love with you. Same with you and the cleaning - his not taking it seriously is LBing you. You need to read His Needs Her Needs to understand all this and explain it to him.



> Plus a lack of pda on the 2 occasions when we went out over the weekend. We don't have to kiss, let's hold hands, look into my eyes when I talk to you, hug me, hold me, do something! But least of all, don't ask the waiter for the sports channel. Sigh. On both occasions the place was the perfect couples spot: one a beautiful resort set by a river with no couple but us in sight; the other a family event with live performances at a beautiful park downtown.


Now here is where YOU need to make some changes. As my IC taught me, you have to respect yourself enough to not put up with disrespect. How can he respect you if you don't respect yourself. If you had gone on a date with some guy who did that, would you have stayed? No, you would have walked out of the restaurant and gone home. Why is this any different? Now, as far as pda is concerned, you can't MAKE him want to do it; lots of men aren't built that way. But you can TAKE his hand and hold it. Grab his face and kiss him. Most men like women to take charge now and then. So get the affection. And if he refuses, another opportunity to end the date and walk away.



> I admitted that I was already feeling a little neglected because it was right after my period and there's not much sexual play during that time.


When you say neglected, do you mean you're feeling unworthy, unattractive, what? If you mean you're out of sorts because he's not giving you sex, that's a personal issue and you need to learn to separate his feelings for you from a temporary situation. Does he have to continuously 'show' you he cares? That's not healthy. That's not real love. In fact, that might even be insecurity on your part that could be helped in therapy.



> If I don't initiate (which always ends with me sucking his ****, not because he asks but because I love doing it) then there's no play. I said there's more to sex than just piv and I just was a little desperate for some attention from my man.


So you're saying he won't do foreplay on you? Ever? If so, you need to have a Come to Jesus meeting with him. In our situation, it ended up being he always takes care of me first and THEN he gets his. You may want to suggest this. As in, "I'm tired of being your vessel. If you want access to this, you'd better start wrapping your head around the fact that *I* deserve orgasms, too." 



> He says in his usual monotone voice


Many men are not in tune with feelings. Don't even know HOW to recognize how they feel, or how you feel, let alone know how to talk about it. Also, many men see their wives as a replacement for their mother - from one woman raising them to another. And what do mothers do? Nag their sons to do right. And how do boys/men feel about that? They shut off; they listen but never really hear; you're just another woman nagging at him. Something to work on in therapy or else work on better ways of talking to him, meaning getting him involved. You did pretty well, just not at night.



> The following day he asks me to accompany him on a drive somewhere. I grumble to make it clear that I don't want to but he presses.


You grumble? You should have been direct about your feelings. What you want matters just as much as what he wants; if you don't want to go, say so. Or say 'tell me why I should go and give up doing ABC, which is what I was going to do. You're equal partners; use that. Now, do you usually crumble when he presses? That's another issue altogether. Read the book The Dance Of Anger to look into that.



> In the car he apologises that he was super tired and ended up falling asleep. He asks me: "so I was a jerk at xyz (the resort) huh?' I reluctantly respond: "no, I wouldn't say that". I'm reluctant because deep down I don't want to talk about it because I'm tired of talking about the cleaning issue and the intimacy thing is just embarrassing.


So he asked you and you deflected. You have a CHANCE to iron this out, and you let your 'picked on' feelings take over, and you won't discuss sex like an adult. He tried to be a good husband and you blew it by backing down.



> We go on with our day, him attempting to reconcile by using typical nicknames he knows I love and just trying to be nice in general. In the past I would have been responsive because I'm always eager to go back to normal but this time I'm really hurting inside and I just can't. How is he not interested in hearing more about the issues, in finding out how best he can avoid them recurring, in providing a more appropriate response in general? How could he realize the cleanliness was an issue and just not say anything about it in the moment.


Well, why didn't YOU have the conversation? I'll tell you why. Because you're wearing your resentment like a cloak; it gives you comfort to see HIM as the bad guy; you like being the victim and him the bad guy; you don't have enough self esteem to just hash it out. You two are adults. He tried to work this out; you stayed warm in your resentment cloak and you secretly enjoyed all the attention he was finally throwing your way because it strokes your ego. Just in the wrong way. And in a way that doesn't fix the problem. Keep this up and you'll end up divorced.



> We've been together for 5 years. We're both 27. I moved in 4 months ago.


That's the best thing I've heard - only 4 months. It's not too late to set the stage. Get that posterboard and two colored markers. Sit him down Saturday morning and tell him THIS is what you need to be happy, and go through all the chores, even the tiniest ones. Clear the air, get commitments, and move on. 

And if you can't talk about the sex yet, write it out in a letter and hand it to him. Tell him your needs aren't getting met in that area, and ask him to meet you halfway. Ask him to help you start talking about it in a safe environment. 

Do these things and you two should be fine.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Keke24 said:


> I think the resentment is there and growing because I feel like I go above and beyond to satisfy his needs. He needs affirmation and compliments for his actions, he loves "****ing" (as opposed to tame love-making), he loves being taken care of (eg. me giving him mani/pedicures, massages etc), he loves intelligent conversation and he loves his dogs. The first 4 are easy to do because I love that look of satisfaction on his face during/after and how he just melts. The latter was the hardest as I've never liked dogs because they're so completely dependent on their owners. Now all 4 dogs love me and I'm more than happy to participate in all aspects of their caretaking EXCEPT cleaning the piss/**** of the 2 puppies. I can only do so much before I feel the uncontrollable need to hurl.
> 
> I do have a little OCD about cleaning but I feel I've relaxed a lot to avoid it being a constant issue. I can now deal with dirty dishes staying overnight, and the pots/baking dishes "needing to soak" for days, dishes piling up in the room or him piling up clothes on the chair in the room. I'm mostly asking that stuff be put together and he picks up after himself so we don't have to spend our weekends cleaning. I just can't deal with the place looking cluttered all over and obvious nastiness (like poo stains in the toilet). It's hard for me to feel comfortable in that environment.


So when you read His Needs Her Needs, you'll see that EACH of you have your own top needs. And that it's good to meet his needs - but ONLY if he's meeting yours. That's where your insecurity is showing. If he's leaving dirty dishes in the living room, turn off the tv, take his computer or game console out of his hands, and say "I can't live like this, and I'm not your maid. Please take your dirty dishes to the kitchen." Stop with the asking. You're his partner, not his mother, not his child. Equals. Equals can talk to each other. Asking is a power struggle; EXPECT him to at least pick up his stuff, or his life is disrupted. Period.

Now, you'll probably NEVER get him to clean the toilet, so just give that one up and take care of it yourself.

Whose idea was it to get the puppies? His? Then it's HIS job to keep up with their messes. If he refuses, get a carpet/floor cleaner company on auto-dial and every time there is a mess, call them to come over, and PAY them with HIS credit card. Ok? Stop being his maid.

Basically, it's YOUR job to set the stage for you to get equal treatment, not his.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Quote:
In the car he apologises that he was super tired and ended up falling asleep. He asks me: "so I was a jerk at xyz (the resort) huh?' I reluctantly respond: "no, I wouldn't say that". I'm reluctant because deep down I don't want to talk about it because I'm tired of talking about the cleaning issue and the intimacy thing is just embarrassing.

Not addressing his question sends him a mixed message and can confuse him. It also helps you to hold onto resentment.

I second the notion that the bed is not the place for serious relationship discussions.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

I thought I should share an update on the situation presented in the thread. 

I took the advice the advice of 3Xnocharm and got those books. Very insightful, excellent suggestions. Now if only I could convince him to read them the physical and virtual copies I've shared. 

We did create a cleaning schedule and that has helped tremendously with the major items. The smaller stuff like not returning things to their place after using, I've accepted will simply not change. I'm doing my best to ignore these and just learn to live with a little mess.

I've realized that there really is a problem with an overall lack of attentiveness. While in the past I attributed that to lacking interest and him not caring, I think the real issue is a lack of experience on his part. This is his first serious relationship, he grew up with a single mother, none of his close friends are in serious relationships and he has very few examples of successful, long term relationships in his extended family. Therefore while he won't admit it, I think he's just lost as to how best to respond in difficult situations.


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