# Looking for some hope



## hurting guy (Oct 8, 2012)

Hello everyone. This is my first post, anytime, anywhere. Peraps some of you may have some words of encouragement.

I want to keep this a summary, but also give you enough information to be useful. My wife and I have been married 28 years. During this last year, she told me she is thinking of a separation, but didn't know where to go. For the last nine months, she also refuses sex. We are in marital crisis, and it has been devastating for me. I have never really experienced depression before, but now I understand what that means. I have never cried so much in life.

Some background. I don't know for sure, but my wife may have married me without ever having a strong sexual attraction to me. A head vs. heart thing. I offered the things she was looking for, I was a "good guy" and we had similar values, she knew I would be a good father and provider, and I was athletic and physically attractive enough. I was the guy you could bring home to the parents and they would be pleased.

But we were both sexually inexperienced. Early on in our marraige, we got into a routine were I learned how to please her orally, and she would usually have an orgasm, but she would just lay there with closed eyes and fantasize. I often wondered, who is she thinking about. Also, trying different positions was not allowed because anything other than the one sideways position was painful for her. Except for rare occasions, she refused to give me oral sex. From my perspective, it was always me trying to please her, but I never had a sense that she was trying to please me sexually. Perhaps she was, but it didn't feel that way to me.

Of course, my desire diminished. We did it less frequently, and with less emotional connection. Also, because of my disruptive snoring, we slept together less and less. The result was that neither one of us was being satisfied sexually. But we didn't do anything about it. I was busy in my career, she was busy at home, and we had three wonderful growing boys that we devoted our lives to. As parents, we worked great together; she is a wonderful Mom and she would agree that I am an involved and loving Dad. But we should have been paying more attention to ourselves, and our marriage.

Now, we are becoming empty nesters, and it seems that every frustration my wife has ever had in our marriage is bubbling to the top. She brings up issues or events from 15 or 20 years ago, and says she was just stuffing all these feelings deep inside because I missed all the messages of unhappiness she was sending to me. I am sure I did miss many things; I have never been very good at "reading" messages. At the same time, I always thought we were pretty happy. To me, the issues we had seemed like just minor bumps in the road. I realize now that I greatly under appreciated what was going on inside my wife emotionally.

Now I have learned that she is not attracted to me, and maybe even a bit repulsed by me. She would say she loves me as a husband and as a father to our boys, but not in a romantic way. The years of sexual routine, and not sleeping together enough, and me missing her messages to me, caused an emotional disconnect that is too much for her to bear. Through my own fault, I didn't realize that I was not meeting her emotional needs and was frustrating her. So, nine months ago sex came to an abrupt end.

The crazy thing is, for a few weeks before she cut off all sex, she was amazingly great in bed. I thought we had the best sex of our entire marraige. We had some different positions, including her being on top which was always previously painful for her, and even oral sex for me. From my perspective, we started connecting emotionally too, intimacy was being found, we were communicating better, and I really thought we were on our way to healing our marriage, and our next phase would include a great sex life together. I was excited. Then, one day, it all stopped. She said it wasn't working for her. I asked why, what happened, and she said she had just been faking it that last few weeks and she was just trying to prove to me that she can be great in bed. She later regretted saying that.

It has been a horrible nine months, but it feels like maybe we have turned a corner and we are both really trying hard to save our marraige. We agree that our grown kids would be devastated if we divorced. She knows I am trying to change the stuff about me that annoys her, and she is trying too.

We went out on a "date" for dinner and a movie, and then we made love afterwards. First time in a long time. We took our time, lots of caressing and kissing beforehand, and I gave her a back rub afterwards. Nevertheless, I know it was hard for her. I know that she is still in great emotional turmoil. She was able to kiss me, but I realize it may well have just been "sex" and not lovemaking. I know that things are not and will not be fixed over night. Still, I appreciated her effort and willingness to try being together sexually.

Just one month ago, I believed I had lost her completely. She wouldn't agree to go to marraige counseling, she wouldn't work through any marraige books with me (I bought a couple and she tossed them aside), I was not even allowed to show her any affection. She said things to me that hurt deeply, and it seemed that there was almost no chance of winning her back. It seemed like it was too late, and that whatever we once had, it was gone. Like the old Roy Orbison song, she "lost that loving feeling." 

Now, it seems maybe there is a chance. I have some hope. So, here is my concern. Has anyone out there been in that situation where the wife is just not attracted to the husband, maybe even repulsed by him, but then was able to regain that "loving feeling"? I have read a lot of these posts, and so often it seems that once the love is gone, it is very rare to regain it. Are there some success stories out there? If so, do you have any advice that can help keep this going in a positive, healing, direction?

Sorry for the long post. I have absolutely no friends I can talk to about this. When I have tried to talk with a couple guys, their advice or perspective was pathetic. Thanks for whatever help or encouragement anyone might offer.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

It sounds to me like you lost her love years ago and she held it in until you became empty nesters. If you want her love back, you need to find out what needs she was not getting from you in all those years. 

I bet for her it is not sex. The sex may have compounded her resentment actually. Look back to those things that she mentions from years past and look at them from her point of view. 

It does sound like she might be trying but it also sounds like she my be done trying really soon. Right before my fiancé broke it off with me she was extra affectionate and the sex improved but it was her way of letting go...


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

She could be a "walk-away-wife." Do some research on that. 

Being more sexual "all of a sudden" is a bit odd. Please rule out cheating. Sometimes the sex "changes" hot or cold with the spouse.

Of course - marriage counseling if she changes her mind.

Lots of people here hopefully will give you some advice on how to attract your wife & also keep reading the threads.

Good luck.


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## hurting guy (Oct 8, 2012)

Thanks to both of you for your thoughts. I did look up the "walk away wives" and that was very interesting. There are definitely some signs of fitting that pattern. I also agree that I must understand her unmet needs, and address those. That is what I have been trying to do. I just hope I am not too late. She now gets her emotional support from girlfriends, so I have been "replaced" in that sense. She is a recovering alcoholic, and I have been there supporting her for 15 years, but now she says that I can't understand her because I am not an alcoholic or a co-dependent, and so I cannot provide the emotional support like her girlfriends can. I suppose that is true, but it also has the effect of blocking me out of a major emotional issue in her life. Although we have been married for 28 years, she now says she has changed, and I don't "know" her anymore, but her girlfriends do know and understand her. I think I need to understand how to find a balance where she will look to me and to her girlfriends for support, not one or the other, but both. Maybe I also need to read up on how to support a recovering alcoholic and co-dependent. I always thought I was doing the right things, but obviously I wasn't.

To clarify, there is no cheating. But to me, it feels like there is an EA with one of her girlfriends. Her own Mom even asked me if she was in a lesbian relationship. I told her no, but with all the private texting, and trips away for the weekend, and many afternoons and other outings, it causes me to understand what it might feel like to be on the wrong end of an EA. I understand that she and her girlfriend are close, and I know she gets a lot out of that relationship, and I understand she needs that friendship, so I don't mind. But I have to admit that I get jealous of the time and closeness they share. I want to have those intimate conversations that they have, and that I thought we once had.

Despite all of that, I have hope. There are some outward positive signs. I am just hoping it is real, and that love can be restored. But I don't hear of too many success stories. I am really hoping and praying this might be one.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

hurting guy said:


> Thanks to both of you for your thoughts. I did look up the "walk away wives" and that was very interesting. There are definitely some signs of fitting that pattern. I also agree that I must understand her unmet needs, and address those. That is what I have been trying to do. I just hope I am not too late. She now gets her emotional support from girlfriends, so I have been "replaced" in that sense. She is a recovering alcoholic, and I have been there supporting her for 15 years, but now she says that I can't understand her because I am not an alcoholic or a co-dependent, and so I cannot provide the emotional support like her girlfriends can. I suppose that is true, but it also has the effect of blocking me out of a major emotional issue in her life. Although we have been married for 28 years, she now says she has changed, and I don't "know" her anymore, but her girlfriends do know and understand her. I think I need to understand how to find a balance where she will look to me and to her girlfriends for support, not one or the other, but both. Maybe I also need to read up on how to support a recovering alcoholic and co-dependent. I always thought I was doing the right things, but obviously I wasn't.
> 
> To clarify, there is no cheating. But to me, it feels like there is an EA with one of her girlfriends. Her own Mom even asked me if she was in a lesbian relationship. I told her no, but with all the private texting, and trips away for the weekend, and many afternoons and other outings, it causes me to understand what it might feel like to be on the wrong end of an EA. I understand that she and her girlfriend are close, and I know she gets a lot out of that relationship, and I understand she needs that friendship, so I don't mind. But I have to admit that I get jealous of the time and closeness they share. I want to have those intimate conversations that they have, and that I thought we once had.
> 
> Despite all of that, I have hope. There are some outward positive signs. I am just hoping it is real, and that love can be restored. But I don't hear of too many success stories. I am really hoping and praying this might be one.


I would start with getting to know her. Do the things you used to do when you were dating. Show her that you understand but don't claim to. 

It is quite probable that she is having an EA with her friend. An EA partner doesn't need to be of the opposite sex. It is an emotional investment that supplants the one for the spouse. It can be as damaging as an EA with the opposite sex. I have seen some of my parents friends that effectively replaced their spouse by a friend in this way. They remained married in name only. 

If you can successfully relearn your spouse and rekindle her attraction then the EA can subside as she re-engages with you. If this doesn't work then you should treat the EA more like an opposite sex EA and demand marriage priority.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

hurting guy said:


> Thanks to both of you for your thoughts. I did look up the "walk away wives" and that was very interesting. There are definitely some signs of fitting that pattern. I also agree that I must understand her unmet needs, and address those. That is what I have been trying to do. I just hope I am not too late. She now gets her emotional support from girlfriends, so I have been "replaced" in that sense. She is a recovering alcoholic, and I have been there supporting her for 15 years, but now she says that I can't understand her because I am not an alcoholic or a co-dependent, and so I cannot provide the emotional support like her girlfriends can. I suppose that is true, but it also has the effect of blocking me out of a major emotional issue in her life. Although we have been married for 28 years, she now says she has changed, and I don't "know" her anymore, but her girlfriends do know and understand her. I think I need to understand how to find a balance where she will look to me and to her girlfriends for support, not one or the other, but both. Maybe I also need to read up on how to support a recovering alcoholic and co-dependent. I always thought I was doing the right things, but obviously I wasn't.
> 
> To clarify, there is no cheating. But to me, it feels like there is an EA with one of her girlfriends. Her own Mom even asked me if she was in a lesbian relationship. I told her no, but with all the private texting, and trips away for the weekend, and many afternoons and other outings, it causes me to understand what it might feel like to be on the wrong end of an EA. I understand that she and her girlfriend are close, and I know she gets a lot out of that relationship, and I understand she needs that friendship, so I don't mind. But I have to admit that I get jealous of the time and closeness they share. I want to have those intimate conversations that they have, and that I thought we once had.
> 
> Despite all of that, I have hope. There are some outward positive signs. I am just hoping it is real, and that love can be restored. But I don't hear of too many success stories. I am really hoping and praying this might be one.


Is this girlfriend single or married? How long have they been friends? Are you ever invited to go out with the 2 of them? Do they seem to go out alone or in groups?

How has she communicated her unhappiness over the years?

Do you have any children?


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## MiriRose (Mar 12, 2012)

Hi hurting guy ~ You shared very transparently about the situation you're facing in your marriage. I'm sorry you're going through this, but I was really touched by the commitment you seem to have toward meeting your wife's needs and seeking healing for past hurts. I encourage you to be patient and not give up hope. It sounds like this is what you are doing already, so please hang in there.  I will be praying for you and your wife.

As I read your post, I was reminded of some articles from Focus on the Family's website that you might want to check out. They have some information on friendship in marriage and turning your marriage around. I work with Focus, and their marriage materials have been very helpful to me personally. I would also encourage you to speak with one of the Focus counselors by phone. It's a free, one-time service, you can find the contact info at this link.

God bless you!


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

hurting guy said:


> To clarify, there is no cheating. But to me, it feels like there is an EA with one of her girlfriends. Her own Mom even asked me if she was in a lesbian relationship. I told her no, but with all the private texting, and trips away for the weekend, and many afternoons and other outings, it causes me to understand what it might feel like to be on the wrong end of an EA. I understand that she and her girlfriend are close, and I know she gets a lot out of that relationship, and I understand she needs that friendship, so I don't mind. But I have to admit that I get jealous of the time and closeness they share. I want to have those intimate conversations that they have, and that I thought we once had.



How do you know there's no cheating? That's what everyone thinks.

Your wife has a million red flags that something's up.

And news flash, an EA IS CHEATING.

I would be most surprised if your wife was not cheating on you, either in an EA or PA, could be man or woman. Could be all 4.

There are so many signs of cheating in your post it's pretty textbook. You've had a walk-away wife and now that she's found someone else she realizes what she's been missing.

Snoop yer a$$ off and be prepared for a shock.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Check her cell phone records for a number that is texted a lot. Too many redflags for her not to have found someone else. Especially the hot sex and then cutting you off. Cheaters get the feeling the are cheating on their affair partner and cut their spouse off.

Get a VAR and velcro it under her front car seat. You should know pretty quick what is going on.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

hurting guy said:


> Now, it seems maybe there is a chance. I have some hope. So, here is my concern. Has anyone out there been in that situation where the wife is just not attracted to the husband, maybe even repulsed by him, but then was able to regain that "loving feeling"? I have read a lot of these posts, and so often it seems that once the love is gone, it is very rare to regain it. Are there some success stories out there? If so, do you have any advice that can help keep this going in a positive, healing, direction?


Read "When is Enough, Enough" in the reconciliation forum. Yes love can recover with a lot of work, patience and a little luck. In the meantime to your post here.

If your wife is indeed in an EA with her GF then the odds are stacked against you. You are no longer her emotional center and have been replaced in that capacity. Many of her needs, wants and desires are tied to the person that holds that position and if the affair is purely emotional and not physical she will not perceive it as a problem. If you try and force her to end it, she will complain that you are being controlling. ****ed if you do, ****ed if you don't. Determining what this relationship is may be the key to a recovery effort.

As suggested by others you may have to do some snooping to determine of there is an affair. Be sure to check in to the local laws about the use of keyloggers, VARS and GPS to make sure you are not putting yourself in legal jeopardy if you elect to go down that path.

While you seem to show great empathy for your wife and understand that your past behaviors may have had a hand in the condition of the marriage, do not lose your self in all of this. Few marriage failures or issues are completely one sided. If you attempt to bring the full weight of the marital woes on your own shoulders you will:

1. Crumble under the weight
2. Not hold her responsible for her part in it.
3. Develop tunnel vision chasing only a part of the solution

There is a lot of work you both need to do, but some of your wife's behaviors are positive. Concentrate on the fundamentals of the marriage, trust, communication and friendship. Don't focus solely on sex. While sex can be a powerful ally in resparking her emotionally, in is not the end goal, only part of the process when used at the right time. It is not a benchmark, it is a tool.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

hurting guy said:


> Has anyone out there been in that situation where the wife is just not attracted to the husband, maybe even repulsed by him, but then was able to regain that "loving feeling"? I have read a lot of these posts, and so often it seems that once the love is gone, it is very rare to regain it. Are there some success stories out there? If so, do you have any advice that can help keep this going in a positive, healing, direction?


hurting guy,

This happens to a lot more couples than you might think. My advice to you is to quit paying so much attention to your wife's feelings and concentrate more on yourself. Your feelings (or lack thereof) are what's going to make or break your marriage. Make yourself remember all the good things you know about your wife and bring them up every time you see her. Thank her profusely for every little thing she does, even if she does next to nothing. Above all, don't allow yourself to have even the most miniscule hint of self doubt. Tell your wife every day how much you love her, how much she means to you, how much she has contributed to your life. In short, make sure you really love her and make sure she really knows it at all times. This will put her on the spot. She will either find her way back to you or she will find her way out the door. Meanwhile, get access and monitor all her electronic communications. Find out who she is talking to and what she is saying, if you can. If she has an affair partner, write back to us for a different set of instructions.

I think it is very sad that so many women will allow themselves to be unhappy for years, if not decades, while they wait around for their husband to develop clairvoyance and read their minds and take action on its contents. Don't fall into this trap yourself. Don't expect your wife to have to read your mind or use her powers of inference to know that you love her. Tell her frequently, firmly and strongly exactly what you want her to know.


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## hurting guy (Oct 8, 2012)

Hello again everyone. I am listening to your concerns about possible cheating. I do agree that many of the signs would point to cheating, I see the red flags, but I really do not believe my wife is cheating. My wife is not that way, and if she was cheating I believe I could tell. My wife does not lie well. I don't believe I have blinders on, or am being naive, I just think I know my wife really well and know that she is not cheating.

But the girlfriend does feel like an EA. To that extent, I see that this is a form of cheating, in the sense that intimate emotional support is coming from elsewhere. I have told my wife that her relationship with her girlfriend "feels like" an EA to me, even if she doesn't view it that way. She said she understands why it can feel that way to me. I have also told her that I can't help but feel jealousy for her close intimate relationship with her girlfriend, because I want that cloeseness too. But I also know that I cannot try to discourage her from seeing her friend, she needs all her friends, and I think it is good that she has them to confide in. So, it seems, my job is to rebuild that trust and intimacy a little bit at a time until she starts to rely on me for intimacy.

To answer a couple questions, we do have kids. The youngest just went off to college, so we are becoming empty nesters. The girlfriend is not married. They have known each other for about two years. The girlfriend is a recovering addict, and my wife is helping her in recovery. Yes, my wife has many outings with her girlfriend and I am generally not invited. These are usually during the day when I am at work. When I go on business trips, they will usually have dinner together, watch a Netflix movie together, and spend most of the time together. For a while, because of the jealousy, my wife was trying to hide how much time she was spending with her friend, but I told my wife that it was okay to spend time with her girlfriend and to not hide anything, and that I just had to deal better with jealousy issues. I actually have become much better about the jealousy, those feelings are almost gone. I am concentrating on building emotional trust so she can look more to me as we try to heal.

I have to admit, I would be completely shocked if there was anything more going on. Despite the way it might look, I really think the girlfriend is just that, a really close friend. My wife is an only child, so I have thought that the girlfriend is almost like the sister she never had.

I think the posts that mention the walk away wife are on target. The articles I read seemed very familiar to our experience in a variety of ways. I think she was just on the verge of walking away, but she didn't do it because she knows our kids would be devastated and they would blame her. She even told me that several times she was "that close" to leaving. But, for the kids sake, she decided to give me a chance. I am trying to take advantage of that chance, and there seems to be some progress. Like I said before, I just hope I am not too late.

I know I am pretty naive about all this stuff, and maybe I am looking past obvious red flags, but I do believe my wife is telling me the truth about the nature of her relationships. If I have any hope, I have to believe her, and I do.

I know one thing. It sure helps to write about this. I have absolutely no one I can talk to. Your candor, warnings, and advice are well taken.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

I think 10 year's advice is a good example of what not to do, unless you want to live in a marriage where you perpetually kiss your wife's a$$ while she goes out and gets boned by half the town.

Women don't want a doormat, they want a man. Take advice from the hundreds of "nice guys" that spent all their time and energy making the bed so it would be nice and clean for their wives when they had affair sex in it.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

hurting guy,

Whether or not your wife is cheating now, she is setting herself up for it whether you and she realize it or not. Hopefully you can reel her back in before it gets to that


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Hurting,

Don't beat yourself up. Most guys don't believe their wife is capable of cheating. You can't be married to someone you don't trust. That's why it's such a hurtful thing, you learn that your spouse, who you trusted, is a f*cking liar and you can't believe anything they say or have done.

You may or may not believe us when we say it doesn't look good for you on that front, we're guys who have gone through what you have, and then on top of that, have seen the exact same story play out hundreds, thousands of times on this board. So at least do your due diligence and start snooping. But I can say in your case you probably will not like what you find, so be prepared.

I could go into the specifics on why the behavior is so textbook, but it won't matter much until you see the evidence for yourself and are willing to accept that your wife is as capable of cheating as anyone else that has done it before.

Start reading No More Mr. Nice Guy or the Married Men's Sex Primer, it will give you a good starting point for taking your life back. Love Must Be Tough is a good one to read to prepare for the conversation you will probably be having about cheating.


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## hurting guy (Oct 8, 2012)

Wow, "ten year hubby" you hit it on the head with the things I am doing. Even about reminding of all the good times. She asked me to write down a self-analysis of all my "character flaws" so I did. But as part of it, I listed out a long list of so many good times we have had in our marriage, lots of little things and big things. It had some impact and she said it was good for her to be reminded of those times. I also told her I wanted to build lots of future great memories as we get older and grandkids come along in a couple years. I think that is part of why she is giving me a chance.

"Amplexor" you are right about not trying to force her to end her relationship with her girlfriend. If I tried that, she would be very angry and would be gone for sure. And you are right, she is at fault too. I have to remember that we both contributed to the problems we now are in. Thanks.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

hurting guy said:


> "Amplexor" you are right about not trying to force her to end her relationship with her girlfriend. If I tried that, she would be very angry and would be gone for sure. And you are right, she is at fault too. I have to remember that we both contributed to the problems we now are in. Thanks.


I am not saying you should not "force" her to do this. I am saying that you need to understand what the relationship is. If it is truly an EA you may have to force her to end it in the interests of recovery. My wife was in one and there came a time where I had to force her out of it. At the time I did it I was fully aware that it may either save the marriage or scuttle it. Either way, I knew the marriage would not survive as long as it encompassed three people.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

COguy said:


> unless you want to live in a marriage where you perpetually kiss your wife's a$$ while she goes out and gets boned by half the town.


Wow. And I thought I had a bad opinion of women. Not being able to predict the future, I allow for multiple outcomes. Her going out and getting boned is what I meant by her "finding her way out the door". I guess I didn't make that clear. OP, you can cut her off any time after the first guy, no need to be around for half the town. If your sincere love drives her into someone else's arms, there will be plenty of room in your bed for someone who loves you back.


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## hurting guy (Oct 8, 2012)

Hmmm. Sobering thoughts. I guess deep down, I sense you are right that the situation is ripe for an affair. If not now, then maybe later. I suppose I am just hoping that my story will end differently. I will check out those resources mentioned in the thread.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Wow. And I thought I had a bad opinion of women. Not being able to predict the future, I allow for multiple outcomes. Her going out and getting boned is what I meant by her "finding her way out the door". I guess I didn't make that clear. OP, you can cut her off any time after the first guy, no need to be around for half the town. If your sincere love drives her into someone else's arms, there will be plenty of room in your bed for someone who loves you back.


Yeah, you think if you rug sweep and "love her right" that she is going to walk up and say, "Oh thanks for treating me so well, I've been sleeping around."

Noooo......this is how affairs go on for years with multiple partners.

I can speak of my example because I know it is in no way unique. I tried being the perfect husband, all it does is make them more horny for the bad boys. I can point to 100 other examples of stories just like mine on the forum. What you are saying works when the woman is still interested in her marriage. At the point where another person becomes involved, man or woman, tough love is necessary.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

hurting guy said:


> "Amplexor" you are right about not trying to force her to end her relationship with her girlfriend. If I tried that, she would be very angry and would be gone for sure.


Ditto on that. My wife fell off the bus with her girlfriend who "gave" her $5,000.00 to get a lawyer so she could divorce me along with lots of other bad advice. If you so much as open your mouth about her girlfriend, she'll be writing in the ladies section of this forum and telling anyone who will listen "My Husband is Controlling, I'm Being Abused" and every female in the whole town will line up on her side against you.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

hurting guy said:


> Hmmm. Sobering thoughts. I guess deep down, I sense you are right that the situation is ripe for an affair. If not now, then maybe later. I suppose I am just hoping that my story will end differently. I will check out those resources mentioned in the thread.


Determining if there is an Affair or she is a Walk Away Wife will be crucial in determining a long term strategy for recovery. But, doting on her at this point will not do any good and could be counterproductive which ever situation you are in. Wive's don't buy the "Honey, I've changed" act after years of neglect and they shouldn't. It's a recipe to open themselves up emotionally only to be hurt again. Confidently show your wife you are willing to work at the marriage by bettering yourself not kowtowing to her perceived needs or whims.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

COguy said:


> At the point where another person becomes involved, man or woman, tough love is necessary.


My mistake. I missed where the op identified the other person


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

hurting guy said:


> Hmmm. Sobering thoughts. I guess deep down, I sense you are right that the situation is ripe for an affair. If not now, then maybe later. I suppose I am just hoping that my story will end differently. I will check out those resources mentioned in the thread.


The end of your story in in your hands. As you can see from the responses, you've got to know when to hold and know when to fold em. Either way, you'll see exactly what I'm saying when the consequences of your wife's choices (to date) finally catch up with you.


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## hurting guy (Oct 8, 2012)

I appreciate the experiences you guys have been through. At this point, I think for me it is clearly a "walk away wife" situation, not an affair. I also think the girlfriend is a lot like an EA, in that I have been replaced for certain emotional needs and intimacy. I hear you that it might sound pretty bleak, but I am not ready to fold 'em and give up. I think my wife still wants the marraige to work. Maybe I am being played the fool on that. Time will tell. Meanwhile, I will stay patient, stay positive, and keep trying to heal the relationship and do the things that can make this marraige work. If it still fails, I will know that I did what I could.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

hurting guy said:


> My wife and I have been married 28 years. During this last year, she told me* she is thinking of a separation, but didn't know where to go*.











75% of divorces are initiated by the woman. The only reason she didn't surprise you with one is her AP(s) can't take her in. Either because he's/they're married are they are transient ONS hook ups while your wife is out of town with toxic GF.



hurting guy said:


> For the last nine months, *she also refuses sex*.











Loyalty to AP is the obvious explanation. It also may be that she doesn't want to run the risk of having you diagnosed for VD, which she would then have to explain. Not to mention having to explain new sexual techniques and desires



hurting guy said:


> We are in marital crisis, and it has been devastating for me. I have never really experienced depression before, but now I understand what that means. *I have never cried so much* in life.


Whatever you do, never let her see you do this.



hurting guy said:


> I don't know for sure, but my wife may have married me without ever having a strong sexual attraction to me. A head vs. heart thing. I offered the things she was looking for, I was a "good guy" and we had similar values, she knew I would be a good father and provider, and I was athletic and physically attractive enough. I was the guy you could bring home to the parents and they would be pleased.


What kind of guys did she date before you?



hurting guy said:


> But we were both sexually inexperienced.


Was she a virgin? How old was she when you met?



hurting guy said:


> Early on in our marraige, we got into a routine were I learned how to please her orally, and she would usually have an orgasm, but she would just lay there with closed eyes and fantasize. I often wondered, who is she thinking about.


Makes you feel like a necrophiliac. Not good.



hurting guy said:


> Also, trying different positions was not allowed because anything other than the one sideways position was painful for her.


What did the doctor say about this? Were you too big for her?



hurting guy said:


> Except for rare occasions, she refused to give me oral sex. From my perspective, it was always me trying to please her, but I never had a sense that she was trying to please me sexually. Perhaps she was, but it didn't feel that way to me.


You probably called it right that she has no attraction to you. She certainly didn't have any by the time you noticed this.



hurting guy said:


> we had three wonderful growing boys that we devoted our lives to.


All three are yours or did she bring some to the relationship at the beginning.



hurting guy said:


> *She brings up issues or events from 15 or 20 years ago,* and says she was just *stuffing all these feelings deep inside* because I missed all the messages of *unhappiness *she was sending to me.











This is a lie. It's her rationalization hamster (every woman has one) creating a justification for her present cheating. All she's got is inconsequential BS from 20 years ago, but the hamster will work with whatever it's given, since logic is not required. Freshly manufactured hurt feelings from imagined events long ago will work just fine. All part of the cheater's script.



hurting guy said:


> I realize now that I greatly under appreciated what was going on inside my wife emotionally.


Stop drinking her kool-aid.



hurting guy said:


> Now I have learned that she is not attracted to me, and maybe even a bit repulsed by me.


That's easy enough to determine. How often do other women hit on you? Does it happen in front of your wife? Women, including wives, are herd animals and are all attracted to the same small group of bucks. If your wife thinks other women want you, her desire for you increases, otherwise....



hurting guy said:


> She would say she loves me as a husband and as a father to our boys, but not in a romantic way.










This is ILYBINILWY. What it means in plain English: I am boffing other guys without using rubbers and even though I don't know this, the chemistry of their strange semen is elevating my mood through the roof after having sex with them. The dopamine rush is driving me wild and the norepinephrine released into my brain during my climax is causing me to bond with these strange men. Therefore, I must not be in love with you. But I still love you, because I get warm fuzzy's thinking about all the providing you do for me."

She sees you as a beta-provider, not a worthy man to reproduce with.











hurting guy said:


> The crazy thing is, for a few weeks before she cut off all sex, she was amazingly great in bed. I thought we had the best sex of our entire marraige. We had some different positions, including her being on top which was always previously painful for her, and even oral sex for me.


Prince Charming gave her a kiss and reawakened her sexuality. You were one of the temporary beneficiaries.










hurting guy said:


> Then, one day, it all stopped. She said it wasn't working for her. I asked why, what happened, and she said she had just been faking it that last few weeks and she was just trying to prove to me that she can be great in bed. She later regretted saying that.


She decided her loyalty to AP was more important than her duty to you as your wife.



hurting guy said:


> She knows I am trying to change the stuff about me that annoys her, and she is trying too.


Quit discussing relationship issues with her. You will attack from another direction.


hurting guy said:


> We went out on a "date" for dinner and a movie, and then we made love afterwards. First time in a long time. We took our time, lots of caressing and kissing beforehand, and I gave her a back rub afterwards. Nevertheless, I know it was hard for her. I know that she is still in great emotional turmoil. *She was able to kiss me*, but I realize it may well have just been "sex" and not lovemaking. I know that things are not and will not be fixed over night. Still, I appreciated her effort and willingness to try being together sexually.










The red flag is for the bolded part. She isn't into you. She wasn't into it. I'm wondering why she did it, unless it's to keep you on the hook; playing out a little here, reeling in some there. Wearing you down.



hurting guy said:


> *I was not even allowed* to show her any affection.


I'm starting to see why she might have had a reduction in attraction to you.



hurting guy said:


> Like the old *Roy Orbison* song, she "lost that loving feeling."


Righteous Bros.



hurting guy said:


> Now, it seems maybe there is a chance. I have some hope.


It's a false hope unless you *radically* change your approach to everything.



hurting guy said:


> So, here is my concern. Has anyone out there been in that situation where the wife is just not attracted to the husband, maybe even repulsed by him, but then was able to regain that "loving feeling"?


Yes. But it's not easy. And it's a lot harder when other guys are involved, which is what it's almost for sure that you're dealing with here.



hurting guy said:


> I have read a lot of these posts, and so often it seems that once the love is gone, it is very rare to regain it.


It's pretty near impossible, because the guys who find themselves in this situation won't change. They're getting nothing worship the wife up on the pedestal, but they aren't willing to modify their behavior. The first thing to remember is this is a war. Like in Viet Nam, you have to be willing to burn the village to save it. Dig?


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

In your original post you said your wife is "repulsed" by you. That is a pretty strong statement.

I'm curious what it is she is repulsed about. You are probably right about no cheating. You have simply been replaced as her best friend.

Also, she said she wanted to separate but has nowhere to go. No disrespect but are you broke? Does she feel trapped in your home?


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## hurting guy (Oct 8, 2012)

Emerald,

"Repulsed" was her word. It is hard for me to process that. I know I could lose some more weight (already lost 16 pounds so pants are getting pretty baggy), I am an aging athlete so I have thickened a bit over the years. But I am still very active, still play sports and not in too bad a shape; I was still playing hockey and basketball until just a few years ago when knee injuries caught up to me. Not bad for 53 years young. I dress well, have good hygiene, and people say I am handsome. Plenty of women definitely flirt, and I have had opportunities for affairs but haven't done it. So, the "repulsion" is more emotional than physical, but it manifests itself in her not wanting to be even touched by me. In the last couple weeks, she has been more receptive to hand-holding or cuddling, but I think some of the other posters would tell me she is just holding on for a while before cutting me loose completely.

Regarding her saying she wanted to separate but had no where to go, I guess it is a matter of perspective. Her girlfriend could have provided a place to sleep, but not the lifestyle she is accustomed to. The girlfriend is unemployed, lives in a studio apartment, and receives disability checks due to her drug addiction. She goes over there a lot and they sit and smoke and talk. If my wife wanted an apartment in town, I could have easily paid for it. I have my own professional business and make a very good living, not rich, but plenty well enough. My wife has not had a job since our first child was born 23 years ago. However, in June she took her first job in all that time. It was only 2 days a week, and certainly was not done for the money. She said she just wanted to have a little more structure in her day. I figured she was preparing to leave and wanted to experience the working world again. She quit the job in early September. 

I would like to believe that the reason she didn't leave was because she still had hope for the marraige. The "walk away wife" that didn't quite walk away. I am glad she didn't walk, but I read some of the other posts and I wonder if it is just a matter of time.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

hurting guy said:


> Thanks to both of you for your thoughts. I did look up the "walk away wives" and that was very interesting. There are definitely some signs of fitting that pattern. I also agree that I must understand her unmet needs, and address those. That is what I have been trying to do. I just hope I am not too late.


Forget her "unmet needs." She has some, but you don't know what they are. She knows at some level, but she can't express it to you. She can't say "I want you to bend me over the couch and f*ck the living sh*t out me." She doesn't want you to do that, She doesn't even want you to know that's what she needs, but she is getting it from Prince Charming. 

It may be too late, so you will have to change fast.




hurting guy said:


> She now gets her emotional support from girlfriends, so I have been "replaced" in that sense. She is a recovering alcoholic, and I have been there supporting her for 15 years, but now she says that I can't understand her because I am not an alcoholic or a co-dependent, and so I cannot provide the emotional support like her girlfriends can.


Maybe her girl friends have helped her work down to the 13th step. You do know there are actually 13 steps in the 12 step program, right? The emotional support is that of the toxic girlfriends who taking her out to rendezvous with Prince Charming(s). They've helped her unleash her inner slvt, which you, as the husband and the father of her children (I assume) cannot be allowed to know exists.




hurting guy said:


> Although we have been married for 28 years, she now says she has changed, and I don't "know" her anymore, but her girlfriends do know and understand her.


That's because her girlfriends know all about the change, since they helped release the inner slvt.




hurting guy said:


> I think I need to understand how to find a balance where she will look to me and to her girlfriends for support, not one or the other, but both. Maybe I also need to read up on how to support a recovering alcoholic and co-dependent. I always thought I was doing the right things, but obviously I wasn't.


Toxic friends, Prince Charmings, and 13 Steppers need to be sent packing. But first, you've got to change your mindset and do some serious gumshoe work.



hurting guy said:


> To clarify, there is no cheating.













But to me, it feels like there is an EA with one of her girlfriends. [/QUOTE]

Toxic GF. They may have something going on, but your wife's new sexual positions tell me there's a man or two in the mix.



hurting guy said:


> I want to have those intimate conversations that they have, and that I thought we once had.
> 
> Despite all of that, I have hope. There are some outward positive signs. I am just hoping it is real, and that love can be restored. But I don't hear of too many success stories. I am really hoping and praying this might be one.


You've got to be willing to completely change your approach, and even then the odds are against it.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

hurting guy said:


> Emerald,
> 
> "Repulsed" was her word. It is hard for me to process that. I know I could lose some more weight (already lost 16 pounds so pants are getting pretty baggy), I am an aging athlete so I have thickened a bit over the years. But I am still very active, still play sports and not in too bad a shape; I was still playing hockey and basketball until just a few years ago when knee injuries caught up to me. Not bad for 53 years young. I dress well, have good hygiene, and people say I am handsome. Plenty of women definitely flirt, and I have had opportunities for affairs but haven't done it. So, the "repulsion" is more emotional than physical, but it manifests itself in her not wanting to be even touched by me. In the last couple weeks, she has been more receptive to hand-holding or cuddling, but I think some of the other posters would tell me she is just holding on for a while before cutting me loose completely.
> 
> ...


Thank you for answering my questions. You sound like a great guy who takes good care of himself & if she wants to leave, she can financially afford to with "community assets."

I do hope it all works out for you both.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Amazon.com: married man sex life

Download and get this book now. Immediately

Here is the blog:

Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.

I beg yopu, do not delay reading this. Its your best hope. Do not be one of the many who say I wish that I had read this when people first told me about it.

Its not a sex manual as the name might imply. It will tell you how you got here for sure.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

BTW, after reading over a thousand threads, there is about a 90% chance she is cheating. I could write all your comments about your relationship in my sleep.

Put a VAR under her car seat. After you hear what her and her girlfriend talk about ................well, just do it.

Please do not say if you have to do that what kind of marriage am I trying to save.


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## hurting guy (Oct 8, 2012)

Thanks Emerald. I hope it works out too. I'm trying.

Machiavelli, I don't share your negative view on much of this, but I can understand that some of the facts certainly back you up. Nevertheless, your premise that she is cheating on me with other guys is just not true. If I am wrong, then she is truly not the woman I know. Assuming there is no cheating, you are probably still right that radical change is necessary or this will end in divorce anyway.


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## hurting guy (Oct 8, 2012)

What is a VAR? My wife communicates with her girlfriend by texting, or in person. The girlfriend's phone plan only texts, no talking.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

hurting guy said:


> "Repulsed" was her word. It is hard for me to process that.


That's downright below the belt. Anyone would have trouble with that one. 



hurting guy said:


> I know I could lose some more weight (already lost 16 pounds so pants are getting pretty baggy), I am an aging athlete so I have thickened a bit over the years.


How many pounds do you need to drop to get to 13% body fat? You need to get to this:







You can do it, even at 53. It's very hard to do, but doable. It will be an important part of getting your wife back, or else a big part of your new life after moving on.



hurting guy said:


> But I am still very active, still play sports and not in too bad a shape; I was still playing hockey and basketball until just a few years ago when knee injuries caught up to me. Not bad for 53 years young.


The main thing you need for your purposes today is a 1.4:1 chest to waist ratio. Waist measured right below the rib cage and above the obliques. This is the main visual cue on the male body (along with a six pack and visible inguinal ligaments) that elicits a response from the female limbic system (arousal from visual stimulus).



hurting guy said:


> I dress well, have good hygiene, and people say I am handsome. Plenty of women definitely flirt, and I have had opportunities for affairs but haven't done it.


 That's very good, you're way ahead of most guys on this.



hurting guy said:


> So, the "repulsion" is more emotional than physical, but it manifests itself in her not wanting to be even touched by me.


You're absolutely correct. She's beta-ized and devalued as a man for a long time, and the standard stuff you've done to appeal to her, the way little boys are taught in this society, actual turn her even further against you. She's so mentally turned off to you, you'll be beating women off with a stick with that new body you're going to have, before she even notices.



hurting guy said:


> In the last couple weeks, she has been more receptive to hand-holding or cuddling, but I think some of the other posters would tell me she is just holding on for a while before cutting me loose completely.


You're learning fast. I'll give you a reading list that will cause the scales to fall from your eyes, big time.



hurting guy said:


> Regarding her saying she wanted to separate but had no where to go, I guess it is a matter of perspective. Her girlfriend could have provided a place to sleep, but not the lifestyle she is accustomed to. The girlfriend is unemployed, lives in a studio apartment, and receives disability checks due to her drug addiction.


No surprises there, otherwise she would have been gone. As you have probably deduced, I think the Toxic GF is a red herring. However, due to female sexual fluidity, your wife may really have a thing going with TGF. You'll have to do some investigating.



hurting guy said:


> She goes over there a lot and they sit and smoke and talk. If my wife wanted an apartment in town, I could have easily paid for it.


Do not enable her affair(s).



hurting guy said:


> However, in June she took her first job in all that time. It was only 2 days a week, and certainly was not done for the money. She said she just wanted to have a little more structure in her day. I figured she was preparing to leave and wanted to experience the working world again. * She quit the job in early September. *


Did her behavior toward you change in anyway at that point in time?



hurting guy said:


> I would like to believe that the reason she didn't leave was because she still had hope for the marraige. The "walk away wife" that didn't quite walk away. I am glad she didn't walk, but I read some of the other posts and I wonder if *it is just a matter of time*.


That's right. It's just a matter of time. You only have a slim shot at winning this. Seeing reality is a big part of it and you've got to find out exactly what you're up against. She's not going to come out and tell you, either.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Voice activated recorder. If GF doesn't phone, does she ride in wife's car. There are other convos with other people you need to check on to.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

hurting guy said:


> Machiavelli, I don't share your negative view on much of this, but I can understand that some of the facts certainly back you up. Nevertheless, your premise that she is cheating on me with other guys is just not true. If I am wrong, then she is truly not the woman I know. Assuming there is no cheating, you are probably still right that radical change is necessary or this will end in divorce anyway.


I'm giving you the absolute worse case scenario, expanding only on facts as provided by you. I think it's what's going on, but I'd love to be wrong. It could be only TGF that's the problem, it's possible. But you'll have to play this the same way, man or woman, because the your wife's limbic system is in the driver's seat. Don't get distracted or throw in the towel due to the potential Lesbian angle.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

So you think she more likely to be a lesbian than cheating with a man? Just before she ended sex with you it was fantastic. Fantastic why, her input or she went where you led?


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

The first thing to do is find out how you got here, attraction wise and how to get out of your box. Chaparral has already told you what to do about that: MMSL. Download that tonight and start reading. It's the biggest bang for the buck you'll ever see.

When you get through with that one, but not before download "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Glover. Some of the same ground, but still quite a bit different.

You also need to find out exactly WTH is going on when your wife is out of sight. Chap says get a VAR and velcro it to the bottom of the car seat. Do it. Put a GPS unit on the car as well. 

What kind of trips is WW making with TGF/OW? Who drives?

How do you know there aren't any other 13 Steppers showing up at TGF's place? Have you done any recon on her place?

What kind of phone does your wife have?

You need to install a keylogger on her computer. Does she get on facebook?

Stick a couple of VARs around the house in places where your wife might be on the phone.

Start weight training and get ripped. Don't waist your time on cardio, your sports playing will take care of that.

Now you need to start unbalancing your wife's status quo a little. Change your wardrobe. Dress like a 35 year old. Younger styles for your suits. If you don't wear suits, start wearing them just for fun. Suits are to male sex rank as a spike heels are to a woman's. Trade in your ride for something inappropriate. Change your hairstyle radically. At your age, you probably want to buzz it short, like the younger generation. Start going out in the evening, dressed sharp, with no explanation. Just say "I'm going out. Be back later." If she asks to come along, unlikely at this stage, allow it and go somewhere fun with her. If she makes no move to join you, but makes further inquiry, dismiss and be vague. Then go have fun with something she would not enjoy. Sports event, live music at a club, etc.

Start projecting to her that you are a man with options. Whenever you're together and women are around, give them the eye right in front of her. Women take their attraction cues from other women. She'll be much more interested in you if she thinks she can be replaced in 5 minutes and not missed after 1.

I know this is all counterintuitive to your programming, but this is the way things are. Get reading with MMSL. Do it tonight.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

chapparal said:


> So you think she more likely to be a lesbian than cheating with a man? *Just before she ended sex with you it was fantastic.* Fantastic why, her input or she went where you led?


Probably OM told her to ramp it up and then take it away. You know the screwed up mindgames these people play with BH. You see it over and over again.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

So what is she going to do with "your list of character flaws" she had you write down? Didn't that piss you off? I'm no angel, but if my husband asked me to do that, I would tell him to f_ck off.

I know the above doesn't help you. She sounds spoiled & entitled to me. You work hard & support her financially for 28 years & she is now dragging up all of her old resentments while at the same time expecting you to be a mind reader about how unhappy she has been.

Do you really love the person she is now or are you in love with the person she used to be? Why do you want to be with this woman who has emotionally attached from you & finds you repulsive?

You may be scared to be divorced & alone at age 53. If she decides to go & I hope she doesn't because you want her to stay, rest assured that a financially & physically fit man of your age is very attractive to single women.


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## hurting guy (Oct 8, 2012)

Thanks. Some good advice in here. Checking out MMSL. Already have good chest to weight ratio, but am getting better every day. Got started on weight training again. Yeah, dressing sharp. I know I have options, women give me plenty of attention, but I want her attention. MMSL looks interesting.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

hurting guy said:


> Thanks. Some good advice in here. Checking out MMSL. Already have good chest to weight ratio, but am getting better every day. Got started on weight training again. Yeah, dressing sharp. I know I have options, women give me plenty of attention, but I want her attention. MMSL looks interesting.


It is interesting and lots of guys on here have had amazing success. Some not so much, because the wife was just too far gone. Now your wife needs to learn how much attention you're getting. Not from you, but with her own eyes. Take her out.

Now, about that investigation stuff. That's a two-edged sword. First it's to find the facts, second is to blow up her fantasy world with TGF/OW/OM, etc. You do not want to confront too soon, unless you find something that causes you to decide to go straight to divorce. That's the biggest mistake husbands make and then they get gaslit by the WW and the next thing you know, they're bamboozled back into the BH fog.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

What kind of phone does your wife have? At least the one you know about, I should say.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

chapparal said:


> BTW, after reading over a thousand threads, there is about a 90% chance she is cheating. I could write all your comments about your relationship in my sleep.
> 
> Put a VAR under her car seat. After you hear what her and her girlfriend talk about ................well, just do it.
> 
> Please do not say if you have to do that what kind of marriage am I trying to save.


This pretty much sums up my thoughts.

I know this is your first rodeo hurting but we've seen it all hundreds of times before you. You are not the first guy to come in here with a post full of red flags, from the standard cheater's script, who is convinced his wife is not cheating.

Unfortunately you won't be the last either.

Imagine you found out tomorrow your wife cheated on you, and all the stuff we said was true. What advice would you give to the next guy about how to listen to you when you say, "Hey, I thought the same thing about MY wife, if all the warning signs are there she's most likely cheating!"


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Machiavelli said:


> The first thing to do is find out how you got here, attraction wise and how to get out of your box. Chaparral has already told you what to do about that: MMSL. Download that tonight and start reading. It's the biggest bang for the buck you'll ever see.
> 
> When you get through with that one, but not before download "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Glover. Some of the same ground, but still quite a bit different.
> 
> ...


Excellent advice to men one and all under any circumstances where your wife has withdrawn from your marriage, especially the op. None of us can predict what the results of your "intelligence gathering" will be but I can guarantee that no matter what you find or what you thought, you will be surprised. I'm starting to see some detail of a modern plan for guys here and I really like it because the girls already have a plan and if you don't believe it's a war out there you are being naive.

I was just discussing with my wife last night how divorced men over 40 are significantly more likely to get remarried than divorced women. If your wife chooses to spend her life alone rather than be married (to you) you can't stop her but you can definitely find someone else.


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