# Are affairs "real"? Are online relationships "real?"



## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Ya I know, sounds like a silly question.

I also put these together because I think these two questions overlap quite a bit.

I have a co-worker who is "dating" some guy she met on the internet. She hasn't met him in person yet. It's been over six months. Today when she was talking about her "boyfriend" I just told her point blank it's not a real relationship.

Often when infidelity experts challenge the legitimacy of affairs they will say something to the effect that infidelity relationships are pure fantasy. They aren't "real."

I have read similar criticisms about online relationships in general.

And yes, you can have an affair online, which crosses both questions into the same thing.

What makes an in-person relationship "real?
What makes an online relationship "not real?"
What makes an affair "not real?"

Is one more "real" than the other?

I had said to my co-worker that until she meets him in person, and they start doing things normal people do/used to do rather than playing on the computer, she's just living some silly fantasy.

She didn't like the sound of that.

I say too bad.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> Ya I know, sounds like a silly question.
> 
> I also put these together because I think these two questions overlap quite a bit.
> 
> ...


I am genuinely not being facetious, but this is a question at the heart of (all?) philosophy in a way.

Plato's cave seems to apply to this - and life in the broad sense:

Allegory of the Cave - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A boss of mine used to say "perception is truth" and this, in itself, I felt, was perceptive...


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

They're real when they can hurt someone (including those involved).


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I just wonder why you felt the need to poop on her parade... If she's happy, isn't that all that counts?

I believe you can have a relationship with someone online. As anyone who's spouse has left them for someone they met online. Is it based entirely in reality? No, likely not. But that's not really going to change just because they spent a weekend together before going back to their own homes. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

PBear said:


> I just wonder why you felt the need to poop on her parade... If she's happy, isn't that all that counts?


Because her kind of thought process validates infidelity. And i won't do that.

Being "infatuated" is not the same as being happy, sorry.

And what she is, is infatuated.

It will wear off.

And that's when she will go online and find another guy... in secret...


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Allen_A said:


> Because her kind of thought process validates infidelity. And i won't do that.
> 
> Being "infatuated" is not the same as being happy, sorry.
> 
> ...


Where did the infidelity come into play? Was she cheating on someone?

And if the online thing isn't actually a relationship, then there is obviously no infidelity going on. Can't have it both ways, IMHO. Either it's a relationship or it's not. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## carolinadreams (Nov 30, 2012)

Two different questions. 

A person can have an online relationship with another person that doesn't have anything to do with infidelity.

Online relationships or online infiedlity are real and certainly can carryover into in person meetings, once the context changes though they may not be enough to sustain a face to face relationship or infidelity. 

I believe that people do a lot of fill in the blank stuff for their online partner and create a lot of imagined context that may be substantiated in physical face to face interactions.

There's no bad breath, body odor, weird voices, tics, tone etc in online interaction. All of the things that go along with physical in person interactions are cut right out, they may not be a "silly fantasy" but they are very likely an overly idealized an overly romanticized version of it.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

It's a relationship of some sort. It could be real...I agree with the "perception" theory. 

I had an online relationship. Even before we met, we both knew that "this is real" and wondered (just like in a real life relationship) where this might lead. We met after a few months of "dating online" which does sound weird.... After meeting, we KNEW it was real. 

It remained long distance, mostly online....meeting for a weekend every other month, for about 14 months. I moved here to be with him 8 years ago next month. We married, blended families... and it's beyond awesome!


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

PBear said:


> Where did the infidelity come into play? Was she cheating on someone?


We don't know! It's a fantasy relationship. She has not met him. Never been to his home.

He could be a married man with a wife and six kids. He could have six other women on tow in secret. My co-worker could be number seven!

That was my point to her. When you are living a fantasy relationship, you don't have the truth in your hands.

And that, to my mind, is the same ingredient that stirs affairs on as well.

As long as she doesn't get the difference between what's real and what's a fantasy, she is a high risk investment for ANY guy to get involved with in my opinion.



PBear said:


> And if the online thing isn't actually a relationship, then there is obviously no infidelity going on. Can't have it both ways, IMHO. Either it's a relationship or it's not.


Woah. Yes you can have it both ways. Of course you can.

Affairs are not real relationships in my opinion. But they are definitely going on!

That's the whole point of my inquiry here. I have been thinking about it since it came up today and I honestly have trouble articulating the point.

But I am confident there is a distinct difference. And many infidelity texts will say the same thing, though they don't hammer out the details for it anymore than I have.

That's what I want to know..

Is there a difference?

What are the distinct differences (if any) between 

a. an affair and a marriage
b. an online relationship and an in-person relationship

To my mind affairs that have a significant online component are the worst! They feed the fantasy so much moreso...


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

carolinadreams said:


> a. a lot of fill in the blank stuff for their online partner
> b. create a lot of imagined context
> c. may be substantiated in physical face to face interactions
> 
> ...


Yes, thank you, this is the stuff I was looking for. A good list of comparison points to show the stark differences.

This is a good start.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> We don't know! It's a fantasy relationship. She has not met him. Never been to his home.
> *
> He could be a married man with a wife and six kids. He could have six other women on tow in secret. My co-worker could be number seven!*
> 
> That was my point to her. When you are living a fantasy relationship, you don't have the truth in your hands.


That could be possible even if meeting someone in person and dating them though.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

TiggyBlue said:


> That could be possible even if meeting someone in person and dating them though.


Yup. But it's a LOT easier when you are just interacting online.

Which was my point to her. She's living in some Walt Disney World fantasy. She has no idea what's true or not.

This could happen without the internet, but it's a landslide easier to fabricate false identities when you are hiding behind a computer.

So, it would appear to me that in-person relationships are more real than online relationships.

Not that one is real and the other isn't, but on a gradient, the in person relationship is more substantial, less transient than some online only silliness.

In that regard, does anyone have any statistics handy on the long term stability or success of online relationships?

I would bet they are under 10% successful, similar to an affair relationship.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

This is an interesting question, and I sort of can see how it's easy for people to thing one of two ways:

a) an online relationship did not happen "in the flesh" (so to speak) so it is not "real"...and that would make online infidelity impossible because it also didn't happen "in the flesh"

or

b) online relationships ARE real because the connection is real and thus online affairs are real because they connect...just not physically. 

Here's the point that I think people are missing: a relationship does not mean that they relate just in the physical. There are also emotional relationships, intellectual relationships, spiritual relationships, financial relationships... So the first thing we need to do is define what is and is not a "relationship." 

Merriam-Webster says: 
1: the state of being related or interrelated <studied the relationship between the variables>
2: the relation connecting or binding participants in a relationship: as
a) kinship
b) a specific instance or type of kinship
3a) a state of affairs existing between those having relations or dealings <had a good relationship with his family>
b) a romantic or passionate attachment

"Relation" is defined as:
a) an aspect or quality (as resemblance) that connects two or more things or parts as being or belonging or working together or as being of the same kind
b) the state of being mutually or reciprocally interested (as in social or commercial matters)

So it seems to me that if a person has mutual interest with another person online, then they have some kind of a relationship, because--if nothing else--there is the connection of the interest they share mutually. Even if all the rest of it is a lie, they are connected via the mutual interest. 

So in my opinion, dating someone over the internet is "real" to the extent that the two parties are honest. 

Now we all know that people tend to embellish at least a little online--sometimes OUTRIGHT lie--and we also know that when you do not live with someone day-in, day-out you don't see their bedhead in the morning, their bad credit rating, and the 200lbs they forgot to add to their weight...and when you don't see that, you mind fills in the blanks with "The Ideal!" You don't see the bedhead, so your brain fills in that s/he wakes up with great breath, looking refreshed and sexy. You don't see the bad credit rating so your brain fills in that s/he has money to spend so they must be financially okay. ETC. 

So in my opinion, dating someone over the internet is "not real" to the extent that your brain fills in "The Ideal". 

And this is where people get lost. They don't realize that in the absence of contrary data, when there are SOME love kindlers present, your brain will fill in "The Ideal." So they think this vision they have of the person is "real"--and in real life it's probably considerably positive. LOL I mean, the person may be a fine human being, but we all wake up with messy hair and monster breath. We all complain about bills sometimes. 

In conclusion, I think if someone met another person online and got to know them a little--maybe 50% is true and the other 50% is idealized. But if they then met the other person and actually spent time with them, they would begin to see the part that's not so ideal, and that relationship would be growing from fantasy to reality. 

This is why 99% of affairs fail: when the light of day is shined on the "not so ideal" the fantasy is burst and the relationship explodes. It's not based on a realistic view of the person nor based on commitment, and for a relationship to really work, it has to be based on both of those: a realistic view of your partner and a commitment to them and only them.


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## joe kidd (Feb 8, 2011)

All I know is the pain affairs cause is very real. 
Whether or not the relationship was "real" matters not to me. 
If it happens it is real.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> This is why 99% of affairs fail: when the light of day is shined on the "not so ideal" the fantasy is burst and the relationship explodes. It's not based on a realistic view of the person nor based on commitment, and for a relationship to really work, it has to be based on both of those: a realistic view of your partner and a commitment to them and only them.


OK, so, in summary, my co-worker is cocoo for CoCoa Puffs.

lol


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

My 2 cents:

Internet relationships are not real in this sense:

In order to have a 'real' relationship you must know the person in flesh and blood. See them. taste them, feel them, smell them. find out their warts, their good parts, their faults, when they wake up without make-up, leave the toilet seat up, hair messed up, bad hair day, get through their first few fights, arguments. You get the picture.

Internet relationships are real in this sense:

they are fantasy, but they can destroy or negatively affect real relationships and real marriages.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

one of my ex's had an online affair telling OM that they loved them and "man I've been waiting for all my life! I love you!"

After the initial shock and anger, I thought to myself "what a bunch of crud! How can you really love someone you've never even met????" poppy****!


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I think you've been hanging out in the CWI forum too much. The paranoia has taken hold.

Is it easy to be someone else online, rather than in person? Including pretending to be single rather than married or in a committed relationship. Sure. But meeting in person doesn't make things any "safer", especially if the relationship is long distance. 

I think it was cruel and a jerk move on your part to put down her relationship simply because it didn't match your definition of a "real" relationship. If that's the way you want to roll, knock yourself out. Personally, I'd prefer to let people have their happiness, especially if it doesn't harm me or my family. In other words, minding my own business. Or saving it for people ASKING for my opinion, like in here.

C


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

It's as real as the old style penpal becomes romance stories of years ago.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

PBear said:


> Is it easy to be someone else online, rather than in person? Including pretending to be single rather than married or in a committed relationship. Sure. But meeting in person doesn't make things any "safer", especially if the relationship is long distance.


Of course it makes it safer.

By your own admission it's easier to falsify one's identity online. So, that makes online relationships riskier.. LESS SAFE.

That's just basic logic extracted from your own position.



PBear said:


> I think it was cruel and a jerk move on your part to put down her relationship simply because it didn't match your definition of a "real" relationship.


I don't consider it a put down. I consider my warning to her a much needed dose of reality.

People who get drunk with infatuation need someone to give them a reality check.

And my definition of real appears to be common on here. Almost everyone here seems to be of the opinion that there's something noticeably lacking in an online relationship.



PBear said:


> Personally, I'd prefer to let people have their happiness, especially if it doesn't harm me or my family.


She's not happy, she's infatuated. There is a HUGE difference between those two.

And watching someone drunk with infatuation in silence as long as it doens't harm me legitimizes infidelity too.

Far too many people just have this "well, she's happy, and it isn't harming MY home, so it must be OK" attitude. This kind of thinking you endorse is the kind of thinking people use to legitimize infidelity.

Someone needs to speak up when people are doing something stupid.



PBear said:


> In other words, minding my own business. Or saving it for people ASKING for my opinion, like in here.


Nah, I am fed up with people who turn their heads away when someone's making dreadful mistakes with their romantic life.

The world has far too many people who mind their own business and not enough people who will take the time to give people a warning when they are doing something stupid.

And it does indeed appear that she is doing just that. Six months of her time wasted and he can't be bothered to show his face in person? Something is seriously wrong there. Sorry. My bet is he's married.

I expect to find out in the next three months Mr Wonderful has a half dozen other women on the line. By then she will be "in love" (or as you call it "happy" if she's not there already) and he will string her along like a toy until she finally gets some self-respect back and ends contact with him.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Enjoy saving the world from hypothetical situations. I'm sure you'll be successful. 

C


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

PBear said:


> Enjoy saving the world from hypothetical situations. I'm sure you'll be successful.
> 
> C


The emperor has no clothes.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Allen_A said:


> The emperor has no clothes.


And the jester wears women's underwear...


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

It's weird is what it is. I be embarassed to say I was dating or in love with an imaginary person. It could be anyone pretending to be anyone. It's like phone sex. Do you really believe they're naked and touching themselves ?? ...............

Totally sad and cooooookie.


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## Gonnabealright (Oct 24, 2013)

I know a women who has been chatting and web camming for years with a man she loves. They have never met. They break up, stalk each other on line in chat rooms....and then get back togther. It's creepy to me but try to tell her it's not real. Its deffinately real. Not my thing. Seeing a person on web cam does make it more real. She says she's had the best sex ever with him on cam.
It's real to her and everyone else who came here to seek advice from an EA. Even before we had the internets we had letters.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Rugs said:


> It's weird is what it is. I be embarassed to say I was dating or in love with an imaginary person. It could be anyone pretending to be anyone. It's like phone sex. Do you really believe they're naked and touching themselves ?? ...............
> 
> Totally sad and cooooookie.


Yes, that brings up another wonderful example of these unreal relationships...

Let's look at all those crazy 1-800 number phone sex lines...

I remember an episode of some talk show that had a half dozen phone sex workers on there for interview.. ONE of them was a MAN. He had a particular talent for mimicking a woman's voice. He was one of the most highly recommended people that worked there.

Customers thought he was a woman because they never met him. They would call back and ask for him again and again.

How "real" is that? lol

The fact is, it aint.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Hi Allen,

I think a few people on this thread have mentioned that (to paraphrase) much of what people say to each other online can be said in person. We can lie online and we can lie in the flesh. 

What was also mentioned was how these online relationships aren't 'real' because the other person never smelled our morning breath, paid bills with us, etc. But in the beginning of an 'in person' relationship, we don't usually experience many of those things either. Very few of us will meet someone today, and move in with them tomorrow. And although we might spend a lot of time at our boyfriend/girlfriend's house, we're not sharing ALL of our lives together. At least, not initially. 

So, does that mean that NO intimate relationship is "real" UNTIL we've done those things? No intimate relationship is "real" UNTIL we live with our partner on a day-to-day basis, paying bills and raising children? 

Consider the woman who falls in love "at first sight" with a man she only met 10 seconds ago. Is that not "real"? 

And what about the man who has been married for 10 years, with 3 kids, only to announce to his wife that he "never loved her" (and yes, people DO this even if there is no one else in the picture). Does that mean that the entire relationship hasn't been "real"? 

Allen, I usually agree with most of what you write. But even though I have thought of these questions myself, I'm starting to wonder...

...if these questions you're asking--and that others have asked as well--are even the "right" questions we should be asking. 

Yes, even experts say that affairs are based on "fantasy"; not "reality". But I'm wondering if those two words (fantasy and reality) are the _right_ words we should be using to describe these "relationships". 

It used to be that the only "real" relationship was marriage. But with so many marriages ending because of affairs and other deceptions (deceptions about finances, hidden personality disorders, etc.) I really wonder WHAT relationship is truly "real" these days...

Vega


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Define relationship - if it's real to them then it's real


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

A veteran poster here met someone online in a forum (not TAM lol). They communicated online for some time before taking the plunge and meeting in person, liked each other enough to get married rather quickly and have kids and are still happily married to each other years and kids later. I don't think that the initial stages of that relationship were any less "real" than my own relationship where I met him when walking down the street and spent every day together thereafter.

In times past there were couples who only met each other once, then the man went off to war and they wrote each other during his service, fell in love and got married as soon as he got back home. I don't think those pen-pal romances were any less real.

My second cousin was in a TEN YEAR long distance relationship. During that time, they only saw one another three or four times in a year. They were committed to each other and faithful and have now been married for fourteen years and have three gorgeous kids. Many people put down long-distance relationships for the same reasons you put down online ones. Given the way it worked out for them, I don't think my cousin's relationship was any less real.

I think in some ways online relationships can have a deeper sense of emotional intimacy in the beginning of the courtship than traditional ones. It's true that people do lie on the Internet (example Facebook - my life is perfect and Facebook envy) but it's also true that people often feel safer revealing things about themselves when behind a keyboard. (Example, TAM where we are all vulnerable and divulge very personal, intimate aspects about ourselves to each other). So if people are telling the truth to one another in these online relationships, I think that the sense of relationship and love in these situations can be quite real.

The pain when someone is cheated on by a spouse having an online emotional affair is quite real. These relationships; based in reality or not, do destroy many marriages and the people involved in those marriages. 

I agree that affairs aren't real relationships because they are based on deceit but I don't think it's accurate to say that online relationships are based in deceit and therefor not real as well. Some are and some are not. They are two separate things and only correlate when someone chooses to have an online affair. What makes an online affair not a real relationship is not that it takes place online but because it's foundation is built on lies.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

I agree with others who have said you were unnecessarily judgmental and dismissive towards your coworker. Humans can communicate in many different ways. Social networking is massive, and most younger people feel very comfortable getting to know each other using technology these days. Unless you have intimate knowledge of all of their conversations, and know without a shadow of a doubt that he is manipulating her, how can you possibly say its not real/valid? Did you need to see Africa with your own eyes to believe that it existed? Or was a textbook/teacher enough?

This topic is multifaceted and the answers are certainly beyond binary. (real/not)

edit: Is the support people get here on TAM not real either? I've never met anyone from TAM in person.


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