# Do you accept that sexuality is fluid?



## samtravis (Aug 30, 2012)

Do you think sexuality is fluid? Not all, but many people have attraction to both sexes and that is the way we have been created.

The Kinsey scale, also called the Heterosexual-Homosexual Rating Scale,[1] attempts to describe a person's sexual history or episodes of his or her sexual activity at a given time. It uses a scale from 0, meaning exclusively heterosexual, to 6, meaning exclusively homosexual.

Sexuality is not all Black and all White (Hetero and ****) . Some people are 100% heterosexual, some are 100% homosexual and there are many who fall more in the gray area. Many animals have such behavior. Hetero, ****, Bi are just labels and sexuality is fluid. Studies have shown that sexual fluidity is not uncommon and is found more frequently in women than men, though it clearly exists in both. This does not mean that we all experience a degree of fluidity, nor that we are all really bisexual.

How would you react if your spouse says he/she has same sex attraction/feelings?


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## kl84 (Jan 26, 2012)

I am very sorry if this comes off as sounding bad, but I don't know if I would ever look at my husband the same if he confessed that he had any attraction or feelings towards men. If he ever felt this way, for the sake of our marriage, I would hope he could keep it to himself.

I know a lot of women are far more open minded than I am but that's just one thing I don't think I could handle.


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## That Guy Kyle (Aug 30, 2012)

I think for women sexuality is very fluid. For men not so much. This might be cultural rather than biological, but from what I see that's how it works usually. I think people accept bisexual women for example, but not bisexual men, though it shouldn't really matter.


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## samtravis (Aug 30, 2012)

That Guy Kyle said:


> I think for women sexuality is very fluid. For men not so much. This might be cultural rather than biological, but from what I see that's how it works usually. I think people accept bisexual women for example, but not bisexual men, though it shouldn't really matter.


Is this more an American thing? Male bonding or Male sexuality fluidity is more open in European, Asian and Indian cultures. You find guys holding hands in many cultures, but in American culture it is frowned upon.


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## kl84 (Jan 26, 2012)

samtravis said:


> Is this more an American thing? Male bonding or Male sexuality fluidity is more open in European, Asian and Indian cultures. You find guys holding hands in many cultures, but in American culture it is frowned upon.


I believe so.... and some of it can get ridiculous, honestly. Like when my husband and I first hooked up I asked him to paint my toenails, I thought it would be cute to watch. He got SO defensive like he had to defend his manhood for me making such a request. He did it anyways, but did an intentionally crappy job because I guess if he knew how to properly paint toenails, it must mean he's somehow homosexual. Sounds insane, huh? But a LOT of guys are like that. My brother is the WORST. 

From what I see with the younger generation a lot more guys are embracing more feminine qualities. It's a whole new ballgame from when I was in my teens. Everything, from the way they dress to the way the guys bond, is just different from when I was their age. I think it's because people are becoming more and more acceptable of alternative lifestyles. It's not as uncommon as it once was.

Even still, I didn't marry a bi-sexual man. I couldn't and wouldn't. That's just me.


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## That Guy Kyle (Aug 30, 2012)

kl84 said:


> I believe so.... and some of it can get ridiculous, honestly. Like when my husband and I first hooked up I asked him to paint my toenails, I thought it would be cute to watch. He got SO defensive like he had to defend his manhood for me making such a request. He did it anyways, but did an intentionally crappy job because I guess if he knew how to properly paint toenails, it must mean he's somehow homosexual. Sounds insane, huh? But a LOT of guys are like that. My brother is the WORST.
> 
> From what I see with the younger generation a lot more guys are embracing more feminine qualities. It's a whole new ballgame from when I was in my teens. Everything, from the way they dress to the way the guys bond, is just different from when I was their age. I think it's because people are becoming more and more acceptable of alternative lifestyles. It's not as uncommon as it once was.
> 
> *Even still, I didn't marry a bi-sexual man. I couldn't and wouldn't. That's just me*.


See, my wife is bisexual and I've accepted that. But she feels the same way you do, she'd never marry a bisexual man and if she found out I was, I'm sure it would end our marriage. I'm not bisexual but I still think she's weird for feeling that way given who she is, though most women probably agree with her. It might be an American thing.


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## kl84 (Jan 26, 2012)

That Guy Kyle said:


> See, my wife is bisexual and I've accepted that. But she feels the same way you do, she'd never marry a bisexual man and if she found out I was, I'm sure it would end our marriage. I'm not bisexual but I still think she's weird for feeling that way given who she is, though most women probably agree with her. It might be an American thing.


I've been turned on by girl/girl action before but do not consider myself bi-sexual at all and wouldn't want to actually do anything with a girl.... but yes, as hypocritical as it is, it's a lot easier to accept when it's women as opposed to men. I guess because when you think of women you think of them being feminine and two women together looks feminine..... unless one is a stud, and I wouldn't be turned on by that in porn. But seeing two guys together also looks feminine and for me, I like my guy very masculine. So if I found out he was somehow attracted to other men, I would look at him as being feminine. I know it sounds pretty judgmental but I am just being honest.


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## That Guy Kyle (Aug 30, 2012)

kl84 said:


> I've been turned on by girl/girl action before but do not consider myself bi-sexual at all and wouldn't want to actually do anything with a girl.... but yes, as hypocritical as it is, it's a lot easier to accept when it's women as opposed to men. I guess because when you think of women you think of them being feminine and two women together looks feminine..... unless one is a stud, and I wouldn't be turned on by that in porn. But seeing two guys together also looks feminine and for me, I like my guy very masculine. So if I found out he was somehow attracted to other men, I would look at him as being feminine. I know it sounds pretty judgmental but I am just being honest.


What's interesting to me is that when they do those brain scan studies to find out what women like to watch and what men do, they find that women don't care. So women are equally aroused whether they're watching girl/girl, guy/guy, or girl/guy. They don't admit this in the studies but the scans show it. The orientation of the woman doesn't matter. But men actually like what they're "supposed" to like based on their orientation. So straight men like girl/guy or girl/girl, but not guy/guy. I'm not saying any individual woman feels this way, I'm just talking about what these studies showed. So maybe sexuality is more fluid for women than men? I don't know but it's possible.


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## That Guy Kyle (Aug 30, 2012)

samtravis said:


> Is this more an American thing? Male bonding or Male sexuality fluidity is more open in European, Asian and Indian cultures. You find guys holding hands in many cultures, but in American culture it is frowned upon.


I had a friend from Pakistan who mentioned that men there held hands, and he had to adjust to the U.S. since that isn't done here.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

no. the only thing fluid runs down your leg when you get up.


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## kl84 (Jan 26, 2012)

That Guy Kyle said:


> What's interesting to me is that when they do those brain scan studies to find out what women like to watch and what men do, they find that women don't care. So women are equally aroused whether they're watching girl/girl, guy/guy, or girl/guy. They don't admit this in the studies but the scans show it. The orientation of the woman doesn't matter. But men actually like what they're "supposed" to like based on their orientation. So straight men like girl/guy or girl/girl, but not guy/guy. I'm not saying any individual woman feels this way, I'm just talking about what these studies showed. So maybe sexuality is more fluid for women than men? I don't know but it's possible.


I do think it's more fluid for women for sure.... but I am really shocked to hear that women responded the same when faced with guy/guy scenarios. I am definitely not a homophobe, have plenty of gay family and friends and have even went clubbing with them at the gay bars LOL. But for whatever reason, I have a very strong aversion to seeing two guys interact on an intimate level. Even if it has nothing to do with me, and ya know, of course i'm happy for them that they are happy. But I could really do without the visual. I've seen all the cray porn you can think of over the course of time but one thing I have always avoided was guy/guy. Never saw it and don't think I could really handle seeing it.....even if it has absolutely nothing to do with me.....


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## OhhShiney (Apr 8, 2011)

I've read the report, and I expect there may be some truth. 

I would expect that MOST people are on one extreme or the other in terms of which gender they are attracted to, and that there may be SOME variation within a person's lifetime. I think that most people stick in the same region of attraction for most of their life, unless they've been holding back something for a long time (repressed feelings) and make a big swing one way or another.

I'm not offended at all by people at either extreme, or those who may have swung one way or another.

I know that I have always been attracted to women, and have been with women who have always been attracted to men. I can't imagine myself in a situation where I would allow myself to have sex with another man, ever. I have a visceral reaction when I've stumbled across male-male porn, but no such reaction to female-femaile porn. I have a very straight-laced adult friend who is fascinated by male-male porn, and goes ick at female-female porn. 

I have a relative who went from being a lesbian in a long term relationship to being a married heterosexual person two years later when she was in her 40s. So her life was fluid.

I worked in San Francisco for many, many years, and was exposed to people of assorted genders and gender preferences and some in gender transition. I saw life was very fluid in fact. I learned to not be judgmental after working with people on all sides of the spectrum for many, many years.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

kl84 said:


> I believe so.... and some of it can get ridiculous, honestly. Like when my husband and I first hooked up I asked him to paint my toenails, I thought it would be cute to watch. He got SO defensive like he had to defend his manhood for me making such a request. He did it anyways, but did an intentionally crappy job because I guess if he knew how to properly paint toenails, it must mean he's somehow homosexual. Sounds insane, huh? But a LOT of guys are like that. My brother is the WORST.
> 
> From what I see with the younger generation a lot more guys are embracing more feminine qualities. It's a whole new ballgame from when I was in my teens. Everything, from the way they dress to the way the guys bond, is just different from when I was their age. I think it's because people are becoming more and more acceptable of alternative lifestyles. It's not as uncommon as it once was.
> 
> Even still, I didn't marry a bi-sexual man. I couldn't and wouldn't. That's just me.


I am 100% heterosexual. I'm about as John Wayne/Clint Eastwood as a man comes, but i painted my x-wife's toenails many times and thought nothing of it. I guess everybody has a line. They sometimes have a "prettiest man as a woman" contest at some of our local festivals where men dress as women; you couldn't get me to do that with a gun to my head. I also don't like wearing pink shirts, but I thought nothing of doing things with my wife like nail-painting, or cooking and cleaning.


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## kl84 (Jan 26, 2012)

southbound said:


> I am 100% heterosexual. I'm about as John Wayne/Clint Eastwood as a man comes, but i painted my x-wife's toenails many times and thought nothing of it. I guess everybody has a line. They sometimes have a "prettiest man as a woman" contest at some of our local festivals where men dress as women; you couldn't get me to do that with a gun to my head. I also don't like wearing pink shirts, but I thought nothing of doing things with my wife like nail-painting, or cooking and cleaning.


I think it was because we were very new in our relationship and he didn't want to "send the wrong impression" but I think stuff like that is just taking it too far. I'll get out there and catch a football with him but that doesn't mean I want to get laid by a woman LOL. 

I actually did talk him into letting me do his makeup once, I literally would NOT let it go hahaha. He had the perfect eyes to do eyeshadow tricks on, nice and big dough eyes lol....and big luscious lips. I honestly got a little jealous:rofl:


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

It would depend on the level of attraction and what he wanted out if it. If its just a sex fantasy that's one thing. If its something he thinks about all the time and wants to pursue, I wouldn't be turned off but our marriage would have problems.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Yes, I think that sexuality is fluid (and like you said, more fluid with women than men).

Also, there probably is a cultural component at work, as you suggested. Certainly, men in Europe, Latin America etc...are more affectionate with one another than men in the US are.

I accept all of this. I also, accept that who we're attracted to is (for many--and especially men) based on brain chemistry that they have no control over.

So, a part of me would really want to be understanding if my husband confessed to me that he felt some attraction to men (especially, if he had no intention of acting on it--which would be an automatic deal-killer to me)....that said, if I heard that confession (even with no intent to act upon it)...I have a feeling it would ultimately doom the relationship...it would just gnaw on me...bother me over time...

I fully admit that's wrong...it's unfair...and not an open-minded, accepting attitude (which are things I like to value in myself)...and it's certainly not unconditional love..(but then, I acknowledge the unpleasant reality that romantic love is never completely unconditional)

I also have a feeling, that whether they'd admit it or not, most "open-minded" American women...would have a problem with this over time...


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

It's about socialisation. We are influenced heavily by society and societal standards. Women currently are far more likely to identify as bisexual, because it's accepted as a norm and portrayed as being sexy. The media, images, movies and magazines all tell women no sexuality is sexy and cool. Whereas its still quite taboo for men to be bi sexual. 

Throughout history sexuality changes, it all depends on acceptable societal values and influence and then the individuals own chemical make up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HopelesslyJaded (Aug 14, 2012)

I think American men like to think that women are fluid. This is another double standard especially in the US but that is seemingly shared by both genders.

I'll admit to watching gay porn and straight porn but no interest in girl on girl.


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## samtravis (Aug 30, 2012)

Is it true that all straight men like to

- Watch girl-girl porn
- Eat women's *****

and if you dont like these you may be gay ...... or not 100% straight.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

samtravis, bi guys would probably like those too, or are you being sarcastic? Probably some guys who call themselves gay too. One sentiment I've heard repeatedly from folks on this forum I dislike is the idea that if you are even a little bit less than 100% straight than you are 100% gay. Personally I think it is really easy in our culture to tie dominance/submission (sexual and non sexual both) to gender specific roles, and for me its where I think I got the wiring crossed up a little, cause even though I love to eat pvssy and see girl-girl porn the arguments made by a few people here would have me as 100% gay because when I was at my lowest I also happened to be completely submissive and felt deep urges that no 100% straight guy would ever admit to.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

samtravis said:


> Is it true that all straight men like to
> 
> - Watch girl-girl porn
> - Eat women's *****
> ...


Wait, so based on what you have said here, my husband *may be gay*... or not 100% straight?

Whatever. 


You can't judge a man's (or a woman's) sexuality based on what they do or do not like to watch. Nor can you base it on what they do in the sack. My husband doesn't watch guy-girl porn, guy-guy porn, nor girl-girl porn. He doesn't watch any of it. And he isn't gay, nor bi. 

God I hope that was sarcasm... 


As for the fluidity of sexuality... all I can speak for is my own life. 100% heterosexual, as is my husband. Would I ever have been involved with a man who told me he was bisexual? Frankly, no. I had thought about it in recent years, but really, the answer would be no. If my husband ever told me that he was also attracted to men, it would upset me. I have nothing against homosexuals. I have nothing against bisexuals. I have many friends who are homosexuals and bisexuals. But in my marriage, it is unacceptable.


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## samtravis (Aug 30, 2012)

Lon said:


> samtravis, bi guys would probably like those too, or are you being sarcastic? Probably some guys who call themselves gay too. One sentiment I've heard repeatedly from folks on this forum I dislike is the idea that if you are even a little bit less than 100% straight than you are 100% gay. Personally I think it is really easy in our culture to tie dominance/submission (sexual and non sexual both) to gender specific roles, and for me its where I think I got the wiring crossed up a little, cause even though I love to eat pvssy and see girl-girl porn the arguments made by a few people here would have me as 100% gay because when I was at my lowest I also happened to be completely submissive and felt deep urges that no 100% straight guy would ever admit to.


I am not sure whether this is true, but want to get an opinion.

I am not saying you have to watch porn. But in case you like porn, I was told many straight men like guy-girl porn and girl-girl porn. I was also told that not liking to eat pvssy is a sign on not being 100% straight.

– aversion to same sex = straight
– aversion to opposite sex = gay
– no aversion to either = bisexual
– aversion to both = asexual

http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/29/are-men-sexually-fluid/#comments


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

I think what I was trying to say, is that sexual attraction depends on more than just gender (though of course that is a pretty major one). Problem is in real life it's not so easy to clump the sum of all your thoughts emotions and experiences into either "aversion" or "no aversion". For any one person, the attraction or aversion I feel towards them, either sexually or in general, actually is fluid, and I think on a more macro level that fluidity applies even more so.

Everything we know is based on the sum of all our experiences, and none of us ever share all the exact same experiences. Society certainly molds us to have a lot of similar ones, and I believe that just because the majority of straight guys have always felt aversion to same sex they may not see any kind of fluidity among others. But of course this is just my own opinion which I feel pretty strongly about, as to each their own.


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

I kind of do think sexuality is fluid..I am straight, yet can totally be turned on by women, is that weird? 

I have been involved in same-sex 'situations' in the past, but rarely & just for fun, not because of a deep longing. When I see 2 males together, I am fascinated, but not turned on at all. I have compassion for them if I see them in the real world together because it's got to be SO hard being honest with oneself & being exposed to scrutiny..but I admire & respect that ability to no end.

However, if my husband admitted to having any same-sex attraction, it would sadly kill my drive switch. I'm not sure why- I guess it makes sense as one of the above posters said, two men together seems feminine & I need a totally masculine man to feel turned on & secure. That's just personal. (I'm not homophobic whatsoever..)

On another note, my h has eluded to the fact that girl-girl is hot, until he knew I'd been part of it, then in reality he didn't like it very much. I think that type of thing, for some, is hotter when kept in the fantasy realm
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Considering this is a marriage forum and a marriage (in my country) is limited to only two people at one time, those who aren't 100% committed to one end of the spectrum probably should be in some relationship other than a marriage. I'm not into dudes. Not a little, not a lot. If I were confused on that point even slightly, I wouldn't have gotten married.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Considering this is a marriage forum and a marriage (in my country) is limited to only two people at one time, those who aren't 100% committed to one end of the spectrum probably should be in some relationship other than a marriage. I'm not into dudes. Not a little, not a lot. If I were confused on that point even slightly, I wouldn't have gotten married.


Don't have to be committed to some end of a spectrum, only the marriage partner you've vowed to be committed too. So what if you are into dudes or not, so long as you are into your W and remain faithful.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

samtravis said:


> Is this more an American thing? Male bonding or Male sexuality fluidity is more open in European, Asian and Indian cultures. You find guys holding hands in many cultures, but in American culture it is frowned upon.


LOL - You're right about that. One thing that is carefully edited out of U.S. telecasts of the Olympic games is male Russian athletes roughly kissing each other full on the mouth. Apparently, it simply means, "Good job!" like a slap on the back would mean in the U.S. 

But in answer to your question: "No." I have a hard time with the notion of male sexual orientation that's not strongly polarized.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

kl84 said:


> I believe so.... and some of it can get ridiculous, honestly. Like when my husband and I first hooked up I asked him to paint my toenails, I thought it would be cute to watch. He got SO defensive like he had to defend his manhood for me making such a request....


--Not sure what would be effeminate about that. When my wife and I were much younger, she cut my hair and I did her toenails. It seemed like a equatable trade at the time and saved a fair amount of money....


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

..Regarding the toenail painting, my total guys guy type neighbor paints his wife's toenails all the time I find it to be very romantic & pretty awesome
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HopelesslyJaded (Aug 14, 2012)

What do ya'll say about a guy who shaves for his wife? Lol


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

My husband sometimes helps me paint my toenails. It's no big deal. He's not the least bit feminine. He sometimes paints our daughters toenails if asked. 

I wouldn't marry a bi man. If my husband turned out to be bi, I think the marriage would be doomed. I couldn't get over it and I would always wonder if I was enough for him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

HopelesslyJaded said:


> What do ya'll say about a guy who shaves for his wife? Lol


Shaves her or shaves him?


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## HopelesslyJaded (Aug 14, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> Shaves her or shaves him?


Shaves her.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I think most human beings have the _potential _to be involved in sexual situations that fall outside of their natural preference. That is why there is lots of sexual activity in prisons and same sex boarding schools, regardless of preference. If the whole world was wiped out, leaving only two heterosexual men, or two heterosexual women, or a homosexual man and woman, expect that at some point there is likely to be sexual activity between the given pairs. If you were blind folded and received great oral sex, or great anal, and didn't know the recipient was the "wrong" sex for your preference, your body would still get off.

But this comes down, indeed, to preference. If you could sleep with anyone, and there was no chance of judgement, from man or God, who would it be? That's where notions of sexual fluidity come in. If it's one sex, you have a fixed sexuality. If there are variations in who you would sleep with, depending on mood, or activity, that's where fluidity comes in.

I don't think all people are fluid. But there are a lot of men and women who have sexual desires, and behaviors, outside of their stated preference. Lots of married men are seeking out sexual contact with other "straight" men. Lots of wives get off to lesbian porn and have secret same sex longings. There are even gay men who have curiosities about eating out women, or trying vagina out. Human sexuality has proven to be far more complex than what is currently understood, and acceptable, in modern US culture. Here there is a pride about fixed things, and people become scared of the possibility of fluidity. These things are typically kept hidden and private, so people live under the delusions that almost everyone has singular, fixed, immovable sexual desire.

In other cultures, and at other times, the expectations are different. To what degree human sexuality is viewed as a fluid, or fixed thing, depends on when, and where, you live.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Also there is a difference between gender norms and sexuality.

Wearing a pink shirt, painting your girlfriend's toe nails, or holding hands with another man non-sexually in a country where that is the norm, has absolutely nothing to do with sexuality.

But, as with most things, in this country when it comes to gender and sexuality we seem to be very...confused.


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## HopelesslyJaded (Aug 14, 2012)

Ok hopefully I will word this in a way that comes across how I'm thinking.

Do you think this has alot to do with the difference on how affection was shown growing up. For example:

Daughter - gets hugs and kisses from mom & dad. And not too uncommon direct on the lips kisses (closed mouthed of course) This alot of times extends to grandma and grandpa and beyond. Mom's sit and have extended heart to hearts with their daughters and for some mom's don't feel weirded out about nudity around their daughters. For example: we go into changing rooms together bathrooms, etc. So for a large number of girls we've grown up seeing what other women look like naked and are somewhat comfortable being naked around other women mostly in a non sexual manner. We will even make comment about body parts, touch and discuss even and it not be sexual in nature.

Son - hugs from mom and dad but not usually kisses from dad. And even the hugs from dad my not be as loving and lingering like mom gives. Of course mom may have started off not caring about nudity around her son at first but usually before or by age 5 she stops this because it feels strange and inappropriate. Dad most likely stopped being naked around his son by age 2. Now of course I am speaking mainly about here in the US because it's the only thing I have been able to observe. Is this because dads fear instilling some kind of gay feelings in their sons by kissing them, showing affection and being naked around them? Boys may experience nudity around other boys in dressing rooms and such in high school but comments or touching is strictly forbidden and don't get caught curiously checking out another boy's junk. Your automatically gay and could get your ass kicked!


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I will just go by my perspective, but I wholeheartedly agree with the implications that HopelesslyJaded is pointing toward.

I do believe that the boys in this country, who are being raised under an air of homophobic fear that no men lived under in the centuries and millenia prior, is causing a lot of confusion and dysfunction. We are starving our boys of natural affection, and turning same gender body contact, which was once totally and completely expected, and accepted as being separate from homosexuality, into a taboo, sexual thing.

Is it "making" people gay? I don't think so. But I do think that there are a lot of affection starved males who are confused, lost, and might find themselves open to homosexual activity who really are just looking for same gender, non-sexual bonding.

It's a damn shame the kind of attack men, and REAL masculinity, came under in the 20th century in this country. (I know that women have gotten it far worse, for far longer, so please spare me the rebuttal)


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## samtravis (Aug 30, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I think most human beings have the _potential _to be involved in sexual situations that fall outside of their natural preference. That is why there is lots of sexual activity in prisons and same sex boarding schools, regardless of preference. If the whole world was wiped out, leaving only two heterosexual men, or two heterosexual women, or a homosexual man and woman, expect that at some point there is likely to be sexual activity between the given pairs. If you were blind folded and received great oral sex, or great anal, and didn't know the recipient was the "wrong" sex for your preference, your body would still get off.
> 
> But this comes down, indeed, to preference. If you could sleep with anyone, and there was no chance of judgement, from man or God, who would it be? That's where notions of sexual fluidity come in. If it's one sex, you have a fixed sexuality. If there are variations in who you would sleep with, depending on mood, or activity, that's where fluidity comes in.
> 
> ...



Its not just prisons. I have heard there is lot of same-sex sexual contact when men are away for extended period. Like on Ship (Marines, Shipping Profession when men are away extended period)


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

How would you explain a woman who came out as a lesbian after an abusive relationship with a male? The woman I am speaking of only dated men before coming out. I don't even think she was really gay; I think she was just angry and traumatized.

If my husband told me he was attracted to men, I don't think I could stay married to him. As a hetero woman, I want to have a hetero husband which is more than fair.


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## HopelesslyJaded (Aug 14, 2012)

FirstYearDown said:


> How would you explain a woman who came out as a lesbian after an abusive relationship with a male? The woman I am speaking of only dated men before coming out. I don't even think she was really gay; I think she was just angry and traumatized.
> 
> If my husband told me he was attracted to men, I don't think I could stay married to him. As a hetero woman, I want to have a hetero husband which is more than fair.


Well I think the first thought would be that she just said "TO HELL WITH MEN" and decided to try another route. Maybe she feels like even if she met an abusive woman at least she had a better chance of defending herself. I can imagine that kind of situation could make you rethink everything.


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

Call it what you will but girl girl doesn't bother me at all but guy guy.......Oh hell no! 

I don't care if others do it, thats thier business but as for me? That dog don't hunt!


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Yes of course. It can go from bad to worse.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

I've had this very discussion over gay marriage. I think some people are very hetero, some people are very gay, and some fix within the gray area. It's the heteros in the gray area ( there are others too) who are so certain that being gay is a choice because they are able to imagine it and realize that they chose not to be gay. Some even fought the urge.

I am very hetero and my nephew is very gay. He and I would both agree that we are born that way. I kept explaining to a guy over a gay marriage debate that I did not choose to fly hard at 11 years old looking at pretty women. It just happened. There was no amount of debate that will change most people's minds on this subject I found.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> I've had this very discussion over gay marriage. I think some people are very hetero, some people are very gay, and some fix within the gray area. It's the heteros in the gray area ( there are others too) who are so certain that being gay is a choice because they are able to imagine it and realize that they chose not to be gay. Some even fought the urge.



I've made that point for decades now. My state is very polarized with a 50/50 split along many political ideologies. Through much of the 80's and 90's we'd have a vote along the lines of restricting gay rights further. For example, making employment discrimination illegal.

It always failed by a few points, and the close calls led the supporters to keep putting it on the ballot. We've had a big influx of bay area transplants and such a measure would fail but much larger margins today.

I was amazed at those that were so adamant and passionate against gay people. I figure that can only come from 3 places: extreme religion that dominates all views, boys who were molested and blame it on 'gay' men, or people who are confused about their own sexuality and feel guilt over it.

I maintain those who talk "choice" are bisexual. I don't chose to be heterosexual. I'm reminded about it daily. I see a pretty woman and I have thoughts and urges pop in my head. I chose to be a responsible and honorable married man and let them go without gawking. I workout regularly, and that means I visit the men's locker room regularly. When I see naked men I don't have any thoughts like that. The extent may be to look at a guy and say "I want to be cut like that" but never "I want to touch that." I see a shapely woman in a skirt bend over and I'll go whoa... a fully naked guy never had that effect on me. 

I simply don't accept that you can have the feelings about a man like I do about a woman unless your brain is simply different. I couldn't EVER train myself to respond even if I tried.

What I can accept is that people can stay in the closet their entire life. When someone starts expressing bisexual or homosexual desires later in life, they are simply coming out of the closet.

I also say that this is something to embrace. I've known enough people who've come out later in life, and it is so liberating for them. They've lived their life unable to be themselves. Afraid of being exposed. Ashamed of their thoughts. For once they can finally be themselves.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> I've made that point for decades now. My state is very polarized with a 50/50 split along many political ideologies. Through much of the 80's and 90's we'd have a vote along the lines of restricting gay rights further. For example, making employment discrimination illegal.
> 
> It always failed by a few points, and the close calls led the supporters to keep putting it on the ballot. We've had a big influx of bay area transplants and such a measure would fail but much larger margins today.
> 
> ...


Brilliantly stated. It almost makes too much sense to be debatable but some will disagree venomously.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

I will disagree, though not venomously, because my whole life I've been nothing but purely sexually attracted to women, the male form does not, nor has ever done anything sexually arousing to me at all... In my youth I was working out a lot of religious ideologies that were instilled in me, was taught that homosexuality is somehow one of the worst sins imaginable, for awhile i thought of it as an illness and that we should have pity on those, then I came to tolerance and liberation about consenting adults - they can do whatever they like, but I've still never been able to wrap my mind around sexual orientation being hardwired into us.

So I came to accept it no matter what the ultimate cause and all along have felt firmly at my end of the spectrum. However the reason I keep mentioning about submissiveness into this equation is for me this streak, this huge inner desire to please opened up a part of my mind I didn't really know existed - my marriage was so bad, and I've never had any success with women, that suddenly giving it some thought a part of me realized I would be awfully damn good at pleasing a man despite not having any sexual attraction for the masculine. This thought crept into my own sexual fantasy world, and I suddenly felt like I could understand how a man could become bisexual later in life, I even noticed such a trend on craigslist personals (so many submissive "bottoms") - if I have these thoughts I'm sure many others do to, and it seems to match the kind of latent bi-curious things I've noticed among certain middle aged men.

Now I tried giving gay porn a go, and it certainly does nothing, in fact I find it personally repulsive - for me there is nothing to embrace as larry would suggest, atleast not in real life, there is no way no how that I could stomach such an act, however in my fantasy world this submissiveness means I don't have to accept the entire male figure, just the few phallic inches required for my mind to take me to that submissive place (in fact I think its my own I fantasize more than anything else, and have no desire to stick it in any other man at all, just a sort of jealousness for the female sub). I am embracing this submissiveness in a way, because fighting it is something I don't think I can succeed at, so I will work with it for certain areas in my life and check it at the door for parts of my psyche. However as uncomfortable as reading these deep vulnerable thoughts of mine may make some of you, I quite confidently stand by my heterosexuality, though my mind it seems has been opened to the possibility of something else, which is why I definitely believe sexuality is fluid because I have always been introspective with my thoughts, and feel I have nothing to be ashamed of, but this really was all new as of a couple years ago to me and completely coincided with the feeling of being broken into submission by my role in my marriage.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Lon, why do you think your feelings of submissiveness need to lead you to being gay or bi? Why can't you just be a heterosexual man who enjoys being dominated sometimes/often by a woman?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Lyris said:


> Lon, why do you think your feelings of submissiveness need to lead you to being gay or bi? Why can't you just be a heterosexual man who enjoys being dominated sometimes/often by a woman?


What I'm saying is they don't lead me to be gay or bi, but I can understand why many men would go with it, and I think I also have come to understand why many men that truly are "straight" can have such compulsions. And yes I would love to be dominated by a woman, one with a large realistic strapon, lol. At least once anyway. It was/is a strong craving/urge to be fckd, to suck and be used as an object. But only so far as in my fantasy world anyway. And no, a live man or even a "ladyboy" just wasn't part of the equation, the only place it is possible is in my mind because anything phallic was very arousing but attached to some dude is just too much against the grain for me, and it is easy to separate the two in my mind. But that is not to say any other guy with similar urges wouldn't be more open to other experiences.

I must also say that that urge was strong at one point, but has mostly subsided for me, and in fact I've had a taste of the submissive female since and I found that pretty much equally but completely differently arousing as well. What I have learned is that a dominant/submissive dynamic has a big effect on my arousal, no matter which end I'm on.

The main reason I am even talking this out is because these thoughts I've had are real and I truly don't believe I'm repressing my sexuality at all, but it is clear that most "north american males" probably can't relate to this at all or atleast not willing to even explore such things in their mind, certainly wouldn't fess up on a marriage forum. I am sure most guys reading this would label me as in the closet. Whatever, that is not what this is about for me, but I definitely can say that for me (and thus probably others) it seems that at some level dominance/submissiveness is intertwined with gender roles, and I think from what I've noticed is that it is a lot more common than most people are aware of.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Lots of straight guys into pegging. And as Dan Savage http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=14594565 says, "it's not the gays who are buying all that she male porn".


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Lyris said:


> Lots of straight guys into pegging. And as Dan Savage Savage Love by Dan Savage - Seattle Columns - Savage Love - Dan Savage - The Stranger, Seattle's Only Newspaper says, "it's not the gays who are buying all that she male porn".


yes I've read up with a certain level of interest on all the pegging threads on TAM, lol.

Shemale porn, to me, is like gay porn but one has implants and heavy makeup. The idea is interesting, but impossible to pull off, and like I say in my fantasy world I can perfect it to whatever I want. Actually this reminds me of some vintage porn I saw with women who had glued realistic looking dildos on, lol - it actually was a lot more "convincing" than the shemale porn, still fake but a lot sexier for some reason (probably because they were authentic women).


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

kl84 said:


> I believe so.... and some of it can get ridiculous, honestly. Like when my husband and I first hooked up I asked him to paint my toenails, I thought it would be cute to watch. He got SO defensive like he had to defend his manhood for me making such a request. He did it anyways, but did an intentionally crappy job because I guess if he knew how to properly paint toenails, it must mean he's somehow homosexual. Sounds insane, huh? But a LOT of guys are like that. My brother is the WORST.
> 
> From what I see with the younger generation a lot more guys are embracing more feminine qualities. It's a whole new ballgame from when I was in my teens. Everything, from the way they dress to the way the guys bond, is just different from when I was their age. I think it's because people are becoming more and more acceptable of alternative lifestyles. It's not as uncommon as it once was.
> 
> Even still, I didn't marry a bi-sexual man. I couldn't and wouldn't. That's just me.


He could have done a good job on your toenails but knowing how dudes are I would bet a nickel to a donut that he did a crappy job becuase he knew if he did you wouldn't ask hm to do it again.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Lon I thank you for sharing. Your story is yet another reminder that there is nothing clear, cut, and dry about human beings, including our sexuality. We are all on a spectrum in that we all have a unique combination of various sexual markers that make up our individual sexual identity. No two people's sexuality is exactly alike, regardless of the label that best fits their overall preferences.


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## samtravis (Aug 30, 2012)

Many people do not fit into the Gay lifestyle as projected in the media. There is a very large population who have same sex feelings, but do not fit into the lifestyle of Parades, Gay Bars, Gay Marriage or broadcasting to the world they are gay. These are guys who have same sex feelings and mostly keep to themselves and not share with anyone. They have a 100% straight lifestyle and would declare themselves as straight if asked in a survet.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Lon said:


> I will disagree, though not venomously, because my whole life I've been nothing but purely sexually attracted to women, the male form does not, nor has ever done anything sexually arousing to me at all... In my youth I was working out a lot of religious ideologies that were instilled in me, was taught that homosexuality is somehow one of the worst sins imaginable, for awhile i thought of it as an illness and that we should have pity on those, then I came to tolerance and liberation about consenting adults - they can do whatever they like, but I've still never been able to wrap my mind around sexual orientation being hardwired into us.
> 
> So I came to accept it no matter what the ultimate cause and all along have felt firmly at my end of the spectrum. However the reason I keep mentioning about submissiveness into this equation is for me this streak, this huge inner desire to please opened up a part of my mind I didn't really know existed - my marriage was so bad, and I've never had any success with women, that suddenly giving it some thought a part of me realized I would be awfully damn good at pleasing a man despite not having any sexual attraction for the masculine. This thought crept into my own sexual fantasy world, and I suddenly felt like I could understand how a man could become bisexual later in life, I even noticed such a trend on craigslist personals (so many submissive "bottoms") - if I have these thoughts I'm sure many others do to, and it seems to match the kind of latent bi-curious things I've noticed among certain middle aged men.
> 
> Now I tried giving gay porn a go, and it certainly does nothing, in fact I find it personally repulsive - for me there is nothing to embrace as larry would suggest, atleast not in real life, there is no way no how that I could stomach such an act, however in my fantasy world this submissiveness means I don't have to accept the entire male figure, just the few phallic inches required for my mind to take me to that submissive place (in fact I think its my own I fantasize more than anything else, and have no desire to stick it in any other man at all, just a sort of jealousness for the female sub). I am embracing this submissiveness in a way, because fighting it is something I don't think I can succeed at, so I will work with it for certain areas in my life and check it at the door for parts of my psyche. However as uncomfortable as reading these deep vulnerable thoughts of mine may make some of you, I quite confidently stand by my heterosexuality, though my mind it seems has been opened to the possibility of something else, which is why I definitely believe sexuality is fluid because I have always been introspective with my thoughts, and feel I have nothing to be ashamed of, but this really was all new as of a couple years ago to me and completely coincided with the feeling of being broken into submission by my role in my marriage.


I don't know. You were able to imagine how someone could be gay using projection of your own feelings and desires enough to rationalize how a straight person could become gay. 

To me that means you are not at the far end of the spectrum but maybe in the 90% range of the scale. Someone completely gay or completely straight can not do what you have no matter how hard they try to imagine it.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> To me that means you are not at the far end of the spectrum but maybe in the 90% range of the scale. Someone completely gay or completely straight can not do what you have no matter how hard they try to imagine it.


I suppose... but the other underlying point I was being subtle about is that I've moved around a bit on that end of the spectrum over the course of my life, have been much further to the end and less further and I don't expect that at whichever point I'm at now that I will stay there. I also don't see myself ever wanting or needing to go much closer, or past, the midway point toward the other end. For me my sexuality has certainly been fluid.

The fear for me discussing this is that my viewpoint seems so far out of most heterosexual people's comfort zone, especially the women I am usually attracted to who for the most part appreciate a rugged manly man that is guaranteed straight. The way I am evokes uncertainty in myself and others, and nobody ever seems to really like that kind of uncertainty, so I am reluctant to embrace this and feel like I really need to extinguish this somehow, not be ignoring it but by some other means...


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

Lyris said:


> Lon, why do you think your feelings of submissiveness need to lead you to being gay or bi? Why can't you just be a heterosexual man who enjoys being dominated sometimes/often by a woman?


:iagree:


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Lyris said:


> Lots of straight guys into pegging. And as Dan Savage Savage Love by Dan Savage - Seattle Columns - Savage Love - Dan Savage - The Stranger, Seattle's Only Newspaper says, "it's not the gays who are buying all that she male porn".


Wrong and right.

Right in that it's not just gay guys that are buying that porn and are into pegging.

Wrong on them being straight.

They are bisexual.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> Wrong and right.
> 
> Right in that it's not just gay guys that are buying that porn and are into pegging.
> 
> ...


Enjoying the sensation of prostate stimulation doesn't make you gay. Being sexually attracted to men makes you gay (or bi).

Men generally seem pretty obsessed with penises. Porn stars aren't massively well endowed for the tiny percentage of women who buy porn. (please note I said buy, not watch). I guess that's where the Shemale thing comes in. It's a woman with a d*ick.

If a man is being pegged by his wife and fantasizing about, I don't know, Euan McGregor, then I'd say he was bi. If he's just enjoying being pegged by his wife then he's a straight man who likes how it feels.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Lyris said:


> Men generally seem pretty obsessed with penises. Porn stars aren't massively well endowed for the tiny percentage of women who buy porn. (please note I said buy, not watch). I guess that's where the Shemale thing comes in. It's a woman with a d*ick.


I think a lot of men that watch porn are bi exactly for the reason you note. 

I don't get into mainline porn because I don't like seeing d1cks in an aroused state. It just does nothing for me.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Lyris said:


> Men generally seem pretty obsessed with penises.


Yup, this. Straight porn is still very penis-centric. Men are, as a species, have a definite, and well documented, phallic obsession. We are obsessed with our own, obsessed with how we measure up to others, and obsessed with our place on the spectrum (naturally this does not cover ALL men). Some men are obsessed with the penises in porn as much as anything else on the woman, but will never admit it. Nobody likes to talk about the locker room checks and side glances.

This reminds me of two studies. The one where they tracked eye movement in men vs women, using a photograph of a baseball player in mid swing. The majority of women zoned in on the face, and the majority of men, regardless of sexuality, zoned in on the penis and the face. And this was NOT just for human males either. Men tended to fixate likewise on the "private" regions of animals as well.

The other is the results of the largest internet sex study, done using data from billions of web searches, published in the book _A Billion Wicked Thoughts_. It's rather eye opening what men and women search for in total anonymity. One of the more surprising revelations is just how many straight identified men search down penis-centric pornography.


Personally transgendered, or "shemale", porn repulses me (and I am a person not easily repulsed). I use to be VERY baffled by how "shemale" porn can be so prevalent, and popular, among straight identified men. It just didn't make sense to me that millions of guys who likely would not sleep with another man can turn around and be deeply and hungrily attracted to a "chick with a ****". 

But the more I read, and the more I open my mind to all the near infinite contradictions in human sexuality, the more I see that there is just more going on in the human mind than meets the eye, regardless of societal and cultural obligations and expectations.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Not for me. I think I'm so straight that if I was a woman, I'd be a lesbian.....if that makes sense. There's nothing appealing about men for me personally.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Complexity said:


> Not for me. I think I'm so straight that if I was a woman, I'd be a lesbian.....if that makes sense. There's nothing appealing about men for me personally.


I have to admit that I've wondered a couple times how it would feel to be a lesbian. I imagine it would be incredibly sensual to make love to a woman, as a woman.

The sh*t you share online.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Complexity said:


> Not for me. I think I'm so straight that if I was a woman, I'd be a lesbian.....if that makes sense. There's nothing appealing about men for me personally.


Same here. I never found anything appealing about a man in the slightest, no curiosity, nothing, but I'm full blown toward females. I've often said there is no part of the female body that doesn't have the potential to be attractive to me. I mentioned once that I had kissed my x wife's arm pits after she showered, and i could feel the gag reflexes even on-line, but I guess that is just part of me being 100% heterosexual.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I remember listening to a podcast about trans men - women who had transitioned to men - and three out of the four were in relationships with women, but one was a gay man. So that's similar, I guess. When she was a woman, she was attracted to men but felt male herself. So when she transitioned to a man, her gender changed but the sexual attraction remained fixed.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

southbound said:


> Same here. I never found anything appealing about a man in the slightest, no curiosity, nothing, but I'm full blown toward females. I've often said there is no part of the female body that doesn't have the potential to be attractive to me. I mentioned once that I had kissed my x wife's arm pits after she showered, and i could feel the gag reflexes even on-line, but I guess that is just part of me being 100% heterosexual.


Dude I completely understand. Nothing about women grosses me out for some reason. They're just too beautiful  

This might be weird but, I find it really adorable when they have hiccups or when they sneeze lol. I know, I know totally "out there"


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Lyris said:


> I remember listening to a podcast about trans men - women who had transitioned to men - and three out of the four were in relationships with women, but one was a gay man. So that's similar, I guess. When she was a woman, she was attracted to men but felt male herself. So when she transitioned to a man, her gender changed but the sexual attraction remained fixed.


Yes, that reminds me of the relatively recent documentary which highlighted an "all American", blonde, high school football captain that transitioned into a woman. He said that for awhile he assumed he was gay, because he felt different, but after stepping down that road realized that wasn't the case and that he loves women. When he finally figured out that he felt he was a woman, she transitioned, but stayed with women.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

southbound said:


> Same here. I never found anything appealing about a man in the slightest, no curiosity, nothing, but I'm full blown toward females. I've often said there is no part of the female body that doesn't have the potential to be attractive to me. I mentioned once that I had kissed my x wife's arm pits after she showered, and i could feel the gag reflexes even on-line, but I guess that is just part of me being 100% heterosexual.


I think the human body is a spectacular, and beautiful thing, regardless of sex. We are wonderfully made. I don't find the male form gross, or aesthetically unpleasing, in general (clearly there are many, many, many exceptions). 

Having said that, everything about a woman indeed has the potential to be very attractive and sexy. Even if a woman's body isn't in the kind of shape, or doesn't have the overall appearance, that I find attractive, I believe there is something on every single woman that you can find to appreciate.

And no, you kissing your exes' armpits does not set off a gag reflex in me at all.

Actually the only time a woman becomes completely, and totally unattractive to me is when she either has an extremely stuck up, arrogant attitude, or if she's hyper masculine. And even then there still will be purely physical traits worth noting.


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