# Reflections and thoughts about my relationship of 38 years.



## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

Reflections and thoughts about my relationship of 38 years. 


I like feeling appreciated much more than feeling despised. Unfortunately I get a lot more of the latter in my relationship.
If I ask for a favour, of almost any kind, it’s always made out to be a big inconvenience. Even the smallest thing like printing out a page for me at work, because we no longer have that capability at home. If I get a response at all, it’s usually accompanied by anger, bitterness and/or dissatisfaction. I feel like I’m walking on egg shells. I rarely get supported, helped, or assisted without resentment for being asked to do so being added to the equation.
We are no longer romantically intimate, and haven’t been for years. It’s in part due to my spouses poor personal hygiene, (she only showers once a week) and partly due to their alcoholism, as well as my lack of desire for her.
My sense of self worth in our marriage is completely tied to whether or not I have a steady income. My spouse has let me know that they’d be quite happy, even if I completely hated my life because of having a totally ****ty job, so long as I was bringing home a steady pay cheque. I’d be given zero support if I wanted to take a risk and start any new venture/business at this point, I’m only allowed to find a steady job again. I was laid off one month ago and my spouse is already fed up with the situation. I’m getting the silent angry treatment pretty much all the time now.
I’m proud of my spouse for having 2 dry spells recently, the first one lasting a few weeks (I think). But it’s obvious to me now that they’ll never stop drinking and smoking. They’ll just try harder to hide the drinking if I continue to get on their case about it. I’m concerned about addressing it again, as I found 5 empty lcbo paper bags in the trunk of their car last week. Are they drinking at work now?
I have become numb to my spouses negative take on everything which i understand is a “bad sign” in a marriage, according to experts. 
I’ve also given up on, and am becoming numb to their not eating and replacing food with alcohol, every night, while I make and enjoy a healthy meal made for 2.
Alcoholism has made them incredibly forgetful and they repeat saying the same things over and over again, it can be very aggravating at times.
Every time they drink they black out mentally, and often physically as well. I regularly save having discussions about anything, until they are sober because I know they won’t remember a single thing that’s said while they’re drunk. One of my daughters has confessed she doesn’t call home at night anymore for the same reason.
Pretty much anything that upsets my spouse is all the justification they need to drink. Whether it be a hard day at work, or something they did that upset me at home, but most of the time no reason at all is needed. They come in the door after a full day at work, and throw back a few stiff ones regardless of anything else.
I have often thought oh why bother with divorce at this point, their drinking and smoking will kill them soon anyways and save both of us a lot of headache and heartache. But, even though we don’t share any quality time anymore, I still realize I’d miss not having their company. Their presence is better than being alone (most of the time). Strangely I’ve realized, I even take comfort in just hearing a cough from the next room. There are things I’d miss about our marriage if it were to end ….having someone to worry about me when I’m late coming home, having someone to talk to, not being alone, being able to go away and do other things like camping with my kids, or spending a night with my friends in the Muskoka’s, all possible because someone is home to look after the animals, and lastly having some assistance with paying the bills makes our current residence possible, without which we’d be forced to sell our home, eventually.
I remember telling my dad that I thought I was ready to move on and didn’t care what it did to our finances. With tears in his eyes he said “I think she really is a sweetie you know.” That really tugged at my heart strings and made me realize that leaving a marriage affects all the family in your life. You lose the continuity that a long term relationship provides.
Over a decade ago, I was presented with the opportunity to leave when our marriage counsellor said “are you tired of climbing Everest, do you want to stop now?” I thought it was what I wanted at the time but in that moment I took one look at the forlorn look on my spouses face and just couldn’t bring myself to do it. That was the last marriage counselling meeting we had.
I’ve been eating breakfast as I write this, and they just walked into the room, instead of saying “good morning” they said nothing, had a scowl on their face and looked at the floor. In this moment I felt the information they conveyed to me was ….oh it’s you, the person who disappoints me the most in life, I have no desire to talk to you.
There is nothing to look forward to in our relationship. We’ll never go out again, and outside of some home maintenance, we’ll never do anything together again. Everything couples might do together seems completely off the table now. No long walks or bike rides, no camping, no outings of any kind ever again. I get that we’re getting older (we’re 56 now) but even mom at 89 and dad at 87 still did a lot of things together. Lunches and dinners out, book club’s, meetings and get togethers with several different organizations, outings with friends, muskoka retreat weekends away and a trip south somewhere every winter. I think my alcoholic spouse has become completely anti social as a result of their alcohol dependency ruling their life.
As far as our marriage is concerned I exist for one reason only, to bring home a steady pay cheque, and perhaps, to a lesser degree, provide a presence in what would otherwise be quite a quiet and lonely existence, now that our kids have moved out.
When I’m not working I often feel like it’d be a great deal better if I were just dead as then my spouse would at least have some life insurance money, and the kids might be around a bit more for awhile, at least until the grieving period was over.
A decade ago I was asked by 2 different people on 2 separate occasions, what I thought the purpose of life was. They both seemed shocked when I said, “nothing, I’m just waiting to die”. At the time, death seemed more desirable than living out the rest of my days in misery. Now I’m a little more “on the fence about it”.
I gave up drinking on our honeymoon almost 34 years ago now, and I had to give up smoking a few years ago too as I had become SO unhealthy. 
The constant smell of cigarette smoke, and the combination of the smell of alcohol and cigarettes is especially revolting to me now. I want to distance myself as much as possible from it.
I think it’s also disgusting that after decades a person can still adamantly refuse to see a dentist. Teeth become stained and gross looking, and I don’t understand how someone could not care in the slightest when the discolouration has become so severe, and all dental costs would be covered by their health coverage from work!
I’m scared to have a normal conversation about anything when my spouses mood is off, which is most of the time, because I fear the conversation will always go south, so why engage in the first place?

We still have honesty, trust and love (I think) But I’m convinced we’ll never be a truly happy couple again, there’s just too many important things missing in our marriage, and sadly, nothing to look forward to, except maybe the sweet release of death.

I feel like I’m at a crossroads now. 
I feel I have only mediocre reasons for staying in my marriage. The pluses are: 

#1. Our home still provides a safe haven for our two daughters to come back to if and when they ever need to.
#2. It’s easier to do nothing than go through all the turmoil and hell associated with getting a divorce.
#3. There’s continuity with extended family when you stay with the same person.
#4. She still shows me she cares about me every now and then.
#5. I’m scared of going it alone.
#6. It’s easier to pay bills with 2 incomes.
#7. I’d feel super guilty if I abandoned her.

Some of the pitfalls of staying in this marriage are:

#1. Never having sex again 
#2. Constantly dealing with the emotional turmoil of being married to an alcoholic 
#3. Being constantly grossed out by the smell of alcohol and cigarettes 
#4. Having to look after my spouse in her time of need for the rest of our lives after the smoking causes her to have a stroke 
#5. Living with a person who is constantly negative and drains me of all my positive chi energy 
#6. Not having a social life ever again 
#7. Always feeling like I’m not good enough, especially when I’m not working
#8. Always grappling with staving off depressive episodes without the use of expensive pharmaceutical products or alcohol.

In conclusion,
From the posts I’ve read so far….. I appear to be the exception to the rule as I am the husband of an emotionally abusive alcoholic woman who refuses to seek help or treatment for her addiction.

I have as many reasons to leave as I do to stay. I think I could be happier with someone new, if I were so lucky as to find her, but the odds of that are against me at my age.

This is the first time I’ve ever sought out marriage advice. I’d appreciate any input at this point. 

Sincerely 
Discombobulated


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Anyone with a heartbeat would be discombobulated living with your wife.

Is it a friendly ear that you want, or real advice?

Will you act on this advice, because it will point to leaving this spouse of yours?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> Reflections and thoughts about my relationship of 38 years.
> 
> 
> I like feeling appreciated much more than feeling despised. Unfortunately I get a lot more of the latter in my relationship.
> ...


How long has she been like this? What do your daughters think?
Does she know that you are thinking about ending the marriage?
Do you think she would make more effort if you gave her an ultimatum?

If you leave you may or may not meet anyone else, so don't rely on that in anyway.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Your wife is checked out of the marriage. She has deserted you. She is using you for the same reasons you are staying with her, money. Is that how you want to spend the rest of your life?

You are assigning thoughts to you wife that you cannot know. She is an alcoholic. Whatever she is thinking probably makes no sense, as alcohol addles the brain. Furthermore, she is probably severely depressed, but instead of doing something productive about it, she drinks instead.

If you want something done, do it yourself. Asking her only causes you pain. They have copy centers where you can have a copy made.

The level of dysfunction that your wife shows will take years to resolve, if she were even willing, which there is no indication that she is. You can't change her. Only she can do that.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@discombobulatedwithspouse You are a prisoner and your jailer is a drunkard. Sorry, but that's how it looks.

I'd suggest counselling that is specific for a spouse who lives with an alcoholic.

This organisation might be able to help you Coping With an Alcoholic Spouse | Meetings: 888-425-2666 | Al-Anon Family Groups

Incidentally if your wife only showers once a week she might also be depressed. Is that a possibility?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I don't understand why you are even contemplating staying in your situation. 

Notice I didn't call it a marriage.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

What's up with calling your spouse they? Does your spouse not identify as female?


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

We all gamble to a degree when we marry. No one knows for sure if our spouses will
Change after marriage, or if we will be the same. They all look good when we walk down the aisle.

You got a bad draw. Your gamble blew up. Thats just the whole deal in a nutshell.

I get the pluses and minuses, but...........you are miserable now.
Are you going to do anything about it or continue to wallow in misery?


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

Marriage is a partnership and she long ago quit being an actual partner to you, with you and for you.

One person, one partner can't make the other change. 

To each their own, but I would find it much harder to remain than to leave.

Some fear the unknown.

In your instance, I'd fear the KNOWN if I had to spend the rest of my days in your shoes with her.

I wish you well whatever it is you choose to do.

It has to be difficult for you each and every day to summon the courage to remain like this. You aren't happy, you have little to look forward to with her.

Good luck and take care.


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> How long has she been like this? What do your daughters think?
> Does she know that you are thinking about ending the marriage?
> Do you think she would make more effort if you gave her an ultimatum?
> 
> If you leave you may or may not meet anyone else, so don't rely on that in anyway.


I became alcoholic after we met as well, but I stopped drinking during our honeymoon. She didn’t. She’s been an alcoholic for the entire 38 years we’ve been together. I’m convinced she’ll never change ultimatum or not.
One of my daughters thinks I should have left her years ago.
And yes you’re right I may not meet anyone else, but then again…,, I just might too….I taught Latin and ballroom dancing from 2010 to 2014, and I saw a lot of relationships come together in dance class.
If I left her I’d be out dancing every night, in fact just the idea of doing it again excites me. Too bad there’s a pandemic going on.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> I think I could be happier with someone new, if I were so lucky as to find her, but the odds of that are against me at my age.


Having married not one, but two alcoholics myself, I'll start by telling you this:

Fiirst and foremost, you need to have a healthy relationship with yourself. You won't find someone else? So what! Until you really love yourself - and love is an inside job, not externally validated - you will remain stuck.

Next - *Al-Anon*. Most meetings are virtual right now, due to the pandemic so nobody has an excuse for not attending a meeting. I started going in 1996. I gained the life skills and tools needed to learn to respect and love myself, regardless of whether or not I had a partner.

Life is short. This is the only chance you get. So stay and be used as nothing more than a paycheck. Or get out there and live the one life you were given.

YOUR life. YOUR choice. Seriously.


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

Cynthia said:


> Your wife is checked out of the marriage. She has deserted you. She is using you for the same reasons you are staying with her, money. Is that how you want to spend the rest of your life?
> 
> You are assigning thoughts to you wife that you cannot know. She is an alcoholic. Whatever she is thinking probably makes no sense, as alcohol addles the brain. Furthermore, she is probably severely depressed, but instead of doing something productive about it, she drinks instead.
> 
> ...


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

SunCMars said:


> Anyone with a heartbeat would be discombobulated living with your wife.
> 
> Is it a friendly ear that you want, or real advice?
> 
> Will you act on this advice, because it will point to leaving this spouse of yours?


I honestly didn’t know what to expect by spilling my guts on line, but I’m delighted to get any sort of feedback at this point 
I think you’re right, a real solution that addresses the root problems isn’t likely to ever happen. 
but honestly I’m not sure leaving her now makes sense, her mother died at 57, and she didn’t smoke or drink. Her mother’s siblings also died very young, and my wife has always maintained that she too will die by age 57 (which is only 1 year away now) and she seems to be doing all the right things to make this placebo a reality. I just need to hang in there 1 more year and it’ll likely be all over. Praise the lord.


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## Galabar01 (Mar 20, 2019)

If you search other threads here, you'll see people who have been stuck for 10 years, 20 years, or more. You've been stuck even longer.

What is the common theme in all of these situations? The person has the option to leave, but doesn't. You need to come to the conclusion that you are going to move on.


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## Lotsofheart73 (Oct 13, 2021)

I lurk here a lot and have not posted yet. Your post made me decide to post. I’m a little younger than you and married 23 years. I have no experience with alcoholics so no advice there. I think based on your experience with alcohol you know only she can help herself with that issue.

You have a throrough list of pros & cons. Yes, I see that bills are easier to pay with two incomes, but alone you can control & maybe eliminate expenses…smoking is not cheap.

I think you (everybody) deserve a chance to make a happy life for themselves. Your wife is not onboard with that. You’re right. You might not find anybody else. But what if you do? Also, it’s seems that in the past you led a well rounded life…. Work, teaching, dancing and doing things with your children. That is a life worth living!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> I honestly didn’t know what to expect by spilling my guts on line, but I’m delighted to get any sort of feedback at this point
> I think you’re right, a real solution that addresses the root problems isn’t likely to ever happen.
> but honestly I’m not sure leaving her now makes sense, her mother died at 57, and she didn’t smoke or drink. Her mother’s siblings also died very young, and my wife has always maintained that she too will die by age 57 (which is only 1 year away now) and she seems to be doing all the right things to make this placebo a reality. I just need to hang in there 1 more year and it’ll likely be all over. Praise the lord.


What did they all die from? Has she siblings?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I understand (the why) when you say you are waiting for your wife to die rather than divorce her.

Most people would never admit this, or say it out loud. I give you credit for being straightforward.

It is kind of ghoulish and sacrilegious, making some people think if you divorce her you won't get the insurance money!

Yes, her family members died at a young age, but they did not have the medical advances we now have.

You might have to wait longer than you think. It is hard to predict.

If you are not especially lonely or love starved, than this plan might work for you.




_L-_


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## gr8ful1 (Dec 3, 2016)

You refer to her as “they” and “them”. Are those pronouns what she prefers? And if so, what do you suppose that means?


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

Livvie said:


> What's up with calling your spouse they? Does your spouse not identify as female?


Since the majority of the posts I’ve read are women talking about their alcoholic and/or abusive husbands I thought it’d be “more fitting” to not reveal my unique situation until the end of my post. 
By keeping it gender neutral until the end I guessed most of the ladies reading my post would think it was just another female ranting about her dead beat husband. Surprise! It doesn’t just happen to the ladies.


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

jorgegene said:


> We all gamble to a degree when we marry. No one knows for sure if our spouses will
> Change after marriage, or if we will be the same. They all look good when we walk down the aisle.
> 
> You got a bad draw. Your gamble blew up. Thats just the whole deal in a nutshell.
> ...


I’m not sure what I’m going to do yet, I’ve been living with her being this way for so long I’m kind of numb to it all. But yes you’re right, our marriage is completely devoid of happiness and I am miserable.
My daughter doesn’t know I’ve posted anything about our marriage but she literally just told me I should have left her years ago and she thinks it’s ridiculous that every time she visits us that her parents just ignore each other as much as possible and barely say a word to one another in order to avoid conflict. She told me she hates the energy in our home and doesn’t like being here, and can’t wait to leave. She doesn’t even want to stay for Christmas and instead wants to spend it with her boyfriends family. It really makes me sad.
Now that I know our being together is keeping my daughters away, it feels like the right time to leave, more than ever now.


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> our marriage is completely devoid of happiness and I am miserable.


Why are you choosing to remain unhappy and in a miserable relationship?

Life is finite and you've given many decades of your life to this kind of existence. There is no prize at the end for doing that.

We've all heard of the saying where someone is on their death bed and they wished they'd spent more time with their family, their children instead of working so much.

Well, change that a bit for you. When you're on your deathbed, you'll be sad that you chose day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year and decade after decade of being unhappy and miserable.

It's your life and your choice. We can't outrun the consequences of our choices either.

Take care.


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

I mib


SunCMars said:


> I understand (the why) when you say you are waiting for your wife to die rather than divorce her.
> 
> Most people would never admit this, or say it out loud. I give you credit for being straightforward.
> 
> ...


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Who cares if you find someone new or not. What you have right now is far worse than loneliness. 

In addition, you wouldn't be lonely. You like to go out dancing, so I'm assuming you are an extroverted guy. I doubt you'll have issues.


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

A18S37K14H18 said:


> Why are you choosing to remain unhappy and in a miserable relationship?
> 
> Life is finite and you've given many decades of your life to this kind of existence. There is no prize at the end for doing that.
> 
> ...


Thankyou, everyone’s reinforcement of the same thing - I.e. “leave now and try and make the most of the time you have left”. is indeed helping me to become more resolute about finally making the right choice, a decision which I’ve been putting off for far too long.

ironically my one daughter is just coming to terms with the fact that her fiancé is an alcoholic and she just sent her sister a list of characteristics that children of an alcoholic parent often have. My other daughter just read me that list. What an eye opener! 19 out 20 items on that list described the two of them to a T. I’m now trying to convince her to leave him before the cycle repeats itself.


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Who cares if you find someone new or not. What you have right now is far worse than loneliness.
> 
> In addition, you wouldn't be lonely. You like to go out dancing, so I'm assuming you are an extroverted guy. I doubt you'll have issues.


touche


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> I honestly didn’t know what to expect by spilling my guts on line, but I’m delighted to get any sort of feedback at this point
> I think you’re right, a real solution that addresses the root problems isn’t likely to ever happen.
> but honestly* I’m not sure leaving her now makes sense*, her mother died at 57, and she didn’t smoke or drink. Her mother’s siblings also died very young, and my wife has always maintained that she too will die by age 57 (which is only 1 year away now) and she seems to be doing all the right things to make this placebo a reality. I just need to hang in there 1 more year and it’ll likely be all over. Praise the lord.


Venting is healthy. Getting your feelings and anger off your chest is healthy. 

You have listed your pro's and cons of continuing the marriage. Some advice. First you are not a "victim" unless you allow yourself to be a victim. You have free will and can change yourself. MW Davis has a number of books that show how changes you make in yourself can result in changes in the way you are treated by others.

For example, during the sex starved portion of my marriage, my wife would say things to provoke fights between us. After nearly 40 years of marriage, she knew my emotional "hot buttons." I changed myself so that if she tried to provoke a fight, I would not "take the bait." It was very hard to change. After a while, she learned that what worked in the past, no longer worked and she had to approach me differently.

You say you were an alcoholic and stopped during your honeymoon. That shows you have incredible strength of character and will power. Congratulations. You are still capable of healing yourself. You do need to emotionally heal yourself. You need to understand that you are not a victim. If you can be a "mentor" to your wife to help her with her addictions to tobacco and alcohol, she might be able to change. Is this something you want or have you too given up on the marriage? You talk about a safe haven for your daughters, for feeling like you shouldn't abandon her, like if might not be worth the changes that divorce will cause. Have you checked out or would you like to try again.

When I contemplated divorcing my wife, I decided that I needed to heal myself so that if I did divorce her, that I would not jump into another failed relationship. In the process of healing myself, I helped my wife and she healed herself. Together we rebuilt our marriage.

Good luck to you.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Venting won’t get you a thing without action.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

I'd second what a couple of other people have said: *get to Al-anon*. She hates herself, and you can't fix that.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

How can you expect your daughter to leave if the man who is supposed to be her example stays. Your dad was the deciding factor in you staying. Don't be the deciding factor in your daughter staying.

You may not have to leave.

Being ready and willing to leave might provide your wife with the kick she needs to change.

Staying like this though is not helping her. You are enabling both of you to die before you're dead. You are not loving her by continuing like this. Love her enough to tell her you both deserve better from eachother or yourselves or others.

The other side of deciding to man up you will have an amazing life. You might be alone, you might be with your transformed wife, you might be with another woman. And you will look back on these moments with total confusion as to how you could have even contemplated continuing to be the passive, codependent, nice guy you are right now.

You have nothing to be afraid of. It will feel like dying and then you will feel alive. And free. And it will all be worth it.

Get counselling, join a men's group, keep posting here, join a gym - whatever you need to do to feel supported while you learn to really love yourself and your wife and your daughters.

Real love looks like honesty and boundaries and consistent action towards the life you know is out there in those moments when the fog lifts.

I believe in you!


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Convenient Misery: It’s easier to do nothing than it is to face the facts that you wasted your life and then make the effort to change the status quo. Enjoy your convenience.... because making the effort apparently is too hard for you. Go ahead and keep believing it’s her fault .... it’s a convenient excuse.


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

Prodigal said:


> Having married not one, but two alcoholics myself, I'll start by telling you this:
> 
> Fiirst and foremost, you need to have a healthy relationship with yourself. You won't find someone else? So what! Until you really love yourself - and love is an inside job, not externally validated - you will remain stuck.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input, Nobody has ever told me to focus on and put self love and respect first before. Now that I’m really thinking about it I realize my sense of self worth has always come from my perception of what others think of me, and in particular what my alcoholic wife and daughters think of me, since they are the ones I am closest to and spend the most time with.
The relationship I have with my wife has become so toxic it’s begun to seriously affect both my mental and physical health. 
I’ve started going to the gym everyday in an effort to reverse, or at least slow the progress of the physical issues like the onset of type 2 diabetes, gout, and an enlarged prostate. The bigger hurdle now is repairing my mental health. Hopefully getting back into shape will help me cope better with that as well. Of course more is and will be needed, and to that end I’ve already chosen the first alanon meeting I’ll be attending. Today I’m also going to try and find a therapist too.

Thanks for your wisdom and guidance.


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

Fly With Me said:


> How can you expect your daughter to leave if the man who is supposed to be her example stays. Your dad was the deciding factor in you staying. Don't be the deciding factor in your daughter staying.
> 
> You may not have to leave.
> 
> ...


My daughter is indeed at a crossroads. Although she loves her fiancé, and she’s stuck by him for over 4 years, she’s only recently started living with him full time and is just becoming fully aware of his alcoholic issues. Up until now they’ve maintained a “long distance” relationship with her stuck at home in Canada and him stuck at home in Florida due to the pandemic. She’s quite invested in the relationship but is obviously now questioning her future life with an alcoholic.
And yes, I think you’re absolutely right. If I do nothing and stick it out with her mother, who is a raging alcoholic (as she herself put it) I’m sending her the message that it is the right thing to do, when I want nothing more than for her to call it off before she gets in any deeper.
As she told her sister yesterday, everyday he comes home he immediately downs 6 tall boys. My gut is telling me she’ll never be able to change him. Four years ago he worked for and stayed with a close friend of mine who told me he was shocked at how fast he downed several tall boys, and that’s coming from a guy who “can be” a very heavy drinker himself. The borders opened up and he came here for our Thanksgiving get together and put back so many mixed drinks that were 1/2 whisky and 1/2 beer that he started acting out quite obnoxiously and I didn’t know how to deal with it.. At that point, I told my daughter, you don’t want to be married to an alcoholic, but she completely dismissed my comment and said I’m not leaving him just because he had a few too many. Now she knows that a “few too many” is actually a daily thing with him. I’m scared now that he’ll figure out she’s concerned about his drinking and what it means for their future together, but instead of doing something about it, he’ll convince her to elope so she doesn’t leave him. 

My wife did stop drinking on her own for almost a month after I told her I couldn’t understand what she was saying most of the time when she was drunk because she slurred her words so much and that it was getting really old. She quit for a month after that talk.
Four days into a relapse I left her a note which simply said PLEASE stop drinking!! Again she stopped for awhile, I think, either that or she just hid it really well, but she’s clearly back at it again and is doing a poor job hiding it. Now she goes to her room and drinks and reads by herself. She tries to articulate her words more clearly now, while under the influence, but it’s almost comical how slowly and deliberately she pronounces every word in an attempt to address my comment about not being able to understand her. It’s kind of ridiculous really that she thinks it’s still ok to drink so long as I can still understand what she’s saying.
I have to give her credit for trying to stop drinking, and for awhile, succeeding at it all on her own but she becomes so irritable and unbearable to live with in the interim that it’s almost worse than when she’s drinking, but I’m still quite willing to put up with it as I know how hard it must be for her. I’m surprised her stopping didn’t land her in the hospital, I thought it almost certainly would. I sent her info about going to a detox centre facility, which also prompted her to stop drinking briefly. So all total my efforts over the last six months have resulted in her abstaining from alcohol for one month, followed by a couple of weeks, then a relapse, followed by another few days abstaining and then another relapse. So there does seem to be some hope, but not much. Perhaps the only thing I can do to get her to stop permanently is to tell her I’m ready and prepared to leave. I’ve run out of ideas, she genuinely loves her drinking, and probably more than me, I guess I’ll find out.

I’m totally dreading that “feeling like I’m dying” part you so aptly mentioned, you’ve obviously been through this yourself. I know how that feels as we crossed that bridge 12 years ago already. I was going to leave her because of her drinking and also because I was emotionally involved with my dance partner of 7 months and it seemed like I had a second chance to be happy again. My parents got involved and convinced me that leaving my wife for another woman was not the right choice, it would’ve also resulted in a very bitter divorce. In retrospect I think they were quite right as I had just begun to notice a few red flags with her anyways. I’m pretty sure she was alcoholic too. My life would probably be an even bigger mess now had I followed my infatuation and hooked up with her.

Thanks for sharing and letting me know an amazing life is still a possibility for me, and that all I have to do is ….. man up!


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

Galabar01 said:


> If you search other threads here, you'll see people who have been stuck for 10 years, 20 years, or more. You've been stuck even longer.
> 
> What is the common theme in all of these situations? The person has the option to leave, but doesn't. You need to come to the conclusion that you are going to move on.


I think I already have, that awful pain in my gut is telling me so. 

I just read that it takes 1 year for every 5 or 6 years your with your partner to get over them. In my case that would 6 to 7 years, I sure hope that information is way off base.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> I think I already have, that awful pain in my gut is telling me so.
> 
> I just read that it takes 1 year for every 5 or 6 years your with your partner to get over them. In my case that would 6 to 7 years, I sure hope that information is way off base.


It is, when one is divorcing because of the pain the M is causing. 

Act now, and start healing. You'll be surprised at the reduction of stress in your life AFTER you take action to improve your life.


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

Lotsofheart73 said:


> I lurk here a lot and have not posted yet. Your post made me decide to post. I’m a little younger than you and married 23 years. I have no experience with alcoholics so no advice there. I think based on your experience with alcohol you know only she can help herself with that issue.
> 
> You have a throrough list of pros & cons. Yes, I see that bills are easier to pay with two incomes, but alone you can control & maybe eliminate expenses…smoking is not cheap.
> 
> I think you (everybody) deserve a chance to make a happy life for themselves. Your wife is not onboard with that. You’re right. You might not find anybody else. But what if you do? Also, it’s seems that in the past you led a well rounded life…. Work, teaching, dancing and doing things with your children. That is a life worth living!


Thanks, you succeeded in making me cry, but that’s a good thing in this case.

I’m very happy to hear my post help you decide to post too after contemplating it for a long time. I’ve never posted anything on line before, it feels good to help and be helped through especially difficult times.

thanks


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> It is, when one is divorcing because of the pain the M is causing.
> 
> Act now, and start healing. You'll be surprised at the reduction of stress in your life AFTER you take action to improve your life.


I sure hope that’s true, I feel like this will destroy my wife and I’m going to end up totally regretting it, for quite awhile, because of all the pain it will cause her. But I’m not sure how sticking with my current situation is any better either. I’m clearly an enabler if I simply continue to let things carry on as they have for so long Both options are terrible but at least by leaving I’m opening the door to the possibility of a happy future.

When I tell her, I know she’ll try and quit drinking again to keep me from leaving, perhaps she’ll even suggest marriage counselling, but in the end I also know none of it will amount to a hill of beans, because her addiction is stronger than her will power, and it will always win.

I use to think my daughters would despise me if I gave up on her and left. But recently I’ve learned they’re actually more on my side. One daughter is telling me I should have left long ago and the other, the one with the alcoholic boyfriend, has suggested I seek out professional help first.
The only marriage counsellor we ever tried was a disaster. She sided 100% with my wife because she was making more than me at the time and as far as she was concerned that was the number one issue in any marriage. My wife’s alcoholism was never even discussed.
I’m a bit jaded about marriage counselling now, and I feel as though I’d probably end up in the losers corner again. I’m not sure I even want to bother going there again at this point. However if my wife suggests it, and wants to give it one last ditch effort I don’t think I will be able to deny her that, so long as it’s a different marriage counsellor.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

The problem I’ve seen with marriage counselors is trying to find a decent one. Way to many are rug sweepers. It’s a save the marriage at your cost. These people are not gods.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Forget marriage counseling. As long as your wife is active in her addiction, it's not going to work. And, NO, quitting for a month or so is NOT controlling the addiction. Unless your wife admits she is powerless over alcohol and her life has become unmanageable (Step 1), nothing will change.

What you need to do is to step away from her addiction and respect her right to drink herself to death. I had to do this. Ultimately, my husband died from alcoholism. He was found dead and alone in a run-down apartment in Omaha. He had been dead for several days when a maintenance man walked into the apartment and found him. It wasn't the ending I wanted for him or for us, but it was HIS choice, and I had to respect it.

If your wife wants to manipulate you into staying, and it sounds like she will, I'd advise you not fall for it. Unless she goes to rehab and works a strong program for herself, you should cut your losses. Sorry to be so blunt about this, but you are waaaayyyyyyyy too involved in your wife's addiction. You don't own that; she does. Learn to step away from the addict.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> I honestly didn’t know what to expect by spilling my guts on line, but I’m delighted to get any sort of feedback at this point
> I think you’re right, a real solution that addresses the root problems isn’t likely to ever happen.
> but honestly I’m not sure leaving her now makes sense, her mother died at 57, and she didn’t smoke or drink. Her mother’s siblings also died very young, and my wife has always maintained that she too will die by age 57 (which is only 1 year away now) and she seems to be doing all the right things to make this placebo a reality. I just need to hang in there 1 more year and it’ll likely be all over. Praise the lord.


Unhealthy people who smoke and drink etc don’t just wake up dead one morning.

They spend years and years in the process of dying. 

They are in and out of the hospital all the time and require greater and greater levels of care.

It’s a fantasy of yours that she is just going to conveniently die for you and get out of your way. She is going to be sick and demanding and you will be changing her bedpans and cleaning up her poopy clothes and bed and trying to get her to take her meds for YEARS. 

Get out NOW before she starts shtting herself.


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

Prodigal said:


> Forget marriage counseling. As long as your wife is active in her addiction, it's not going to work. And, NO, quitting for a month or so is NOT controlling the addiction. Unless your wife admits she is powerless over alcohol and her life has become unmanageable (Step 1), nothing will change.
> 
> What you need to do is to step away from her addiction and respect her right to drink herself to death. I had to do this. Ultimately, my husband died from alcoholism. He was found dead and alone in a run-down apartment in Omaha. He had been dead for several days when a maintenance man walked into the apartment and found him. It wasn't the ending I wanted for him or for us, but it was HIS choice, and I had to respect it.
> 
> If your wife wants to manipulate you into staying, and it sounds like she will, I'd advise you not fall for it. Unless she goes to rehab and works a strong program for herself, you should cut your losses. Sorry to be so blunt about this, but you are waaaayyyyyyyy too involved in your wife's addiction. You don't own that; she does. Learn to step away from the addict.


Thanks for sharing, sorry to hear about the lousy end to your relationship. 

My wife is extremely stubborn and I just know she’ll never join AA and do the 12 step program, even though that is precisely what she needs to do in order to avoid a similar fate to that of your late husband.

I’m pretty sure she is depressed although she’s never been formerly diagnosed. In her current state of mind I’m not sure she even cares if she lives or dies. I think it’s possible she may even have a death wish.

I really have no desire to return to marriage counselling and I very much appreciate your insight that it wouldn’t work anyways while she’s still active in her addiction. I’ll use that if she suggests going to see one.

Thanks also for letting me know I’m way too involved with her addiction. I had been taking a back seat and letting her drink herself into oblivion for the longest time. It wasn’t until one of my daughters broke down in tears and said her mother was a raging alcoholic, that I finally decided to say something to her about it. Too little too late, her alcoholism is so entrenched now, it completely controls her. I’m a little surprised she’s lived this long as more than half the calories she consumes come from alcohol. She hasn’t had a bite of food after getting home from work in ages, just alcohol. How long can the human body survive this way? Her dad was an alcoholic too, but he still ate 3 meals a day. He made it to 65.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Addiction has such a profound impact on relationships that marriage counseling is pointless until the person has been in remission for quite a while. Addiction has to be meaningfully addressed first. This is likely a combination of a 12 step program and individual counseling. 
I recommend you read Codependent no More, by Melody Beattie and Facing Codependence, by Pia Mellody.
There is no shame in wanting a healed marriage, no matter how unrealistic that may be. However, for there to be any chance at all of that happening, you must do your part, despite the pain addressing the issue will cause. I recommend writing a short letter to your wife telling her you love her, but you don't love the drinking or what it's doing to her or your marriage, so you are asking her to get immediate help or you're going to have to leave. This is more likely to start progress, if there's any hope at all, than continuing to ignore the problem or leaving without giving her a way forward. If you do this, at least you will know that you did your best. Otherwise, based on your comments, I think you will struggle with guilt. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> I’m a little surprised she’s lived this long as more than half the calories she consumes come from alcohol. She hasn’t had a bite of food after getting home from work in ages, just alcohol. How long can the human body survive this way? Her dad was an alcoholic too, but he still ate 3 meals a day. He made it to 65.


There is no telling. I've known people with multiple serious conditions live for 30+ years, into their 90's. Waiting around for her to die, so your life will be suddenly perfect, is magical thinking. Instead, you are in charge of your life and responsible for how you spend each day. Think about how you can make the best use of your time. Think about personal responsibility. 


Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> I feel I have only mediocre reasons for staying in my marriage. The pluses are:
> 
> #1. Our home still provides a safe haven for our two daughters to come back to if and when they ever need to.
> #2. It’s easier to do nothing than go through all the turmoil and hell associated with getting a divorce.
> ...


Your reasons for staying are not mediocre, they are self fabricated and nonsensical.

#1: Is your current house the only structure on the planet that they will be able to enter?? Why wouldn’t they be able to come to wherever you are living?????

#2: Doing nothing is what has got you to where you are now. How is that working out for you?

#3: perhaps if you want to have misfit in-laws around. But why would it effect the continuity of your family?

4: Does it take actual 24/7 conflict and drama to take action. 

5: you ARE going it alone. But worse than that, you are having to provide supervision, support and care for a nonfunctional drunk. It’s a toxic and poisonous environment that is more detriment to your well being than taking care of yourself.

6: Drunks cost more than what they bring in. You are likely at a net loss with her.

7: that YOUR dysfunction. That is what individual counseling and therapy would be able to address.


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Unhealthy people who smoke and drink etc don’t just wake up dead one morning.
> 
> They spend years and years in the process of dying.
> 
> ...


lol, Thanks for the comic relief! You’re the first one to make me laugh.

My wife doesn’t have a doctor and she hasn’t gone to the hospital since 2005, and she only went then because she had developed a hernia and couldn’t bear the pain anymore.

You’re not wrong though! The scenario you suggested is a very real possibility.

Recently there have been two instances for which she needed medical attention.
She fell out of bed last month and broke her nose - and despite my insistence on her going to the hospital, she waited a few days before going to a walk in clinic to have it looked at, and she only went then because she was having trouble breathing. Prior to that in September she knocked a boiling pot of water off the stove onto herself, I wasn’t around for that one, instead of calling 911 or going to the hospital, she called my brother who lives nearby for help, and that was it.

I guess what I’m trying to say is she’s likely to wait until a health problem becomes so bad that seeking medical attention is her only option, and by then, if it’s something serious like cancer, it will have progressed to such a point that there won’t be any hope of saving her. 
Hhhmm, I’m still fantasizing aren’t I? Lol


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> My wife is extremely stubborn and I just know she’ll never join AA and do the 12 step program


That is why YOU need to go to Al-anon. (Note, al-anon is not the same organisation as AA.)


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> lol, Thanks for the comic relief! You’re the first one to make me laugh.
> 
> My wife doesn’t have a doctor and she hasn’t gone to the hospital since 2005, and she only went then because she had developed a hernia and couldn’t bear the pain anymore.
> 
> ...


I wasn’t joking or saying any funny.


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

Cynthia said:


> There is no telling. I've known people with multiple serious conditions live for 30+ years, into their 90's. Waiting around for her to die, so your life will be suddenly perfect, is magical thinking. Instead, you are in charge of your life and responsible for how you spend each day. Think about how you can make the best use of your time. Think about personal responsibility.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


My wife is a farmers daughter, she’s very tough, she could very well live a long time yet, despite the abuse she continually inflicts on her body. Her dad smoked 2 packs a day and drank, and he lived 9 years longer than my wife’s current age.

I’m really not waiting around, or wishing. for her to die. I’ve just not been doing anything period. I’m only just realizing now, that my inaction, my putting up with all her negativity and her alcoholism for so long, actually enables her to continue doing the very things I want to see end.

If she is the only one that can help herself to stop drinking and take the appropriate action to do so out of her own volition what else can I do? I’m damned if I do, (because an alcoholic has to want to get better for themselves) and damned if I don’t (because by taking a back seat and saying and doing nothing, I’m an enabler).

The dominant theme in pretty much everyone’s responses so far is …,..leave..,..NOW!
Although I realize that’s probably the right course of action, sadly, the stats say most people who get divorced aren’t any happier afterwards, but I guess every situation is unique and mine is just screaming for me to “get out”, before I really do get trapped for the rest of her and/or my life.


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I wasn’t joking or saying any funny.


Sorry, it just struck me that way.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Both the alcoholics I married succumbed to the disease in their mid-50s. As long as you live under the same roof, you are her enabler. She may actually decide to seek help if she hits bottom. Even though you think you are tending to your own issues, while you two stay together her "bottom" is protected. I met a guy in A.A. who was actually living out in the woods when he finally crawled into a meeting. Another friend of mine stopped drinking cold turkey and went into convulsions. That was her bottom. Both of them maintained many years of sobriety before they died of natural causes.

As long as you hang around, she's not going to bottom out. I walked through the place my husband spent the last nine weeks of his life. It was horrible to see. What lived there had been stripped of its humanity and was nothing more than a body chained to a bottle. My husband no longer ate the final months of his life. He dropped dead when his body could no longer live on booze.

It's up to you as to what you choose to do with your life. You can continue cohabitating with your wife and have a front row center to her alcoholic hell play. Or you can learn to mind your own business and focus on living your life. As I always say, YOUR life. YOUR choice.


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

Young at Heart said:


> Venting is healthy. Getting your feelings and anger off your chest is healthy.
> 
> You have listed your pro's and cons of continuing the marriage. Some advice. First you are not a "victim" unless you allow yourself to be a victim. You have free will and can change yourself. MW Davis has a number of books that show how changes you make in yourself can result in changes in the way you are treated by others.
> 
> ...


Thanks that was incredibly insightful and helpful. 
I will look into the MW Davis books.
It’s nice to hear a real success story for a change. I didn’t get much out of marriage counselling, but I do remember our therapist saying “the problems you have in this relationship are likely to become the same problems in your next”. 
Thank-you for your words of encouragement, and insights. Perhaps I do need to hit the pause button, and work on healing myself first before taking any drastic action. After all it’s only been 24 hours since I posted my marriage story, and prior to that I wasn’t thinking my ONLY option was to leave, but everyone telling me I should brought me to the brink of doing so in just one day. I was actually serious contemplating telling her I wanted a divorce, tonight. Thanks, you just saved Christmas for us all!


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> The dominant theme in pretty much everyone’s responses so far is …,..leave..,..NOW! Although I realize that’s probably the right course of action, sadly, the stats say most people who get divorced aren’t any happier afterwards,


Happiness is an INSIDE job. I live alone with my cat. I'm not miserable. I'm not feeling worthless. Actually, I rarely get lonely. There are billions of people on this planet. People who claim they are lonely are that way because they choose it.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> My wife is a farmers daughter, she’s very tough, she could very well live a long time yet, despite the abuse she continually inflicts on her body. Her dad smoked 2 packs a day and drank, and he lived 9 years longer than my wife’s current age.
> 
> I’m really not waiting around, or wishing. for her to die. I’ve just not been doing anything period. I’m only just realizing now, that my inaction, my putting up with all her negativity and her alcoholism for so long, actually enables her to continue doing the very things I want to see end.
> 
> ...


I think it's amazing, and not in a good way, that you are wondering that you aren’t going to be happier divorcing and getting out of the awful situation you are in. 

Also, what stats?


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

Prodigal said:


> Happiness is an INSIDE job. I live alone with my cat. I'm not miserable. I'm not feeling worthless. Actually, I rarely get lonely. There are billions of people on this planet. People who claim they are lonely are that way because they choose it.


Nice insights, thanks.
I guess I fear loneliness because I’ve never been alone. I went straight from living with my parents to living with my wife. Perhaps I would be just fine, but I really don’t know, because I’ve never done it.


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

Livvie said:


> I think it's amazing, and not in a good way, that you are wondering that you aren’t going to be happier divorcing and getting out of the awful situation you are in.
> 
> Also, what stats?


When asked years afterwards the majority of people are not any happier after divorcing. In my case I think the guilt I’d feel by leaving and knowing what that would do to my wife and family might feel just as crushing as putting up with her day to day. We’d also have to sell our 30 acres of heaven in the country which we’re both quite attached to, and we’d probably both end up living in tiny little apartments somewhere. Divorce would severely alter both our lives. It’s easy to say “just leave, leave now, what are you waiting for?” when you’re on outside observer, it’s another thing to be in this pickle and contemplating a new and very different life apart.

I don’t even know how divorce works exactly, don’t you have to be separated for a year first?


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

Prodigal said:


> Both the alcoholics I married succumbed to the disease in their mid-50s. As long as you live under the same roof, you are her enabler. She may actually decide to seek help if she hits bottom. Even though you think you are tending to your own issues, while you two stay together her "bottom" is protected. I met a guy in A.A. who was actually living out in the woods when he finally crawled into a meeting. Another friend of mine stopped drinking cold turkey and went into convulsions. That was her bottom. Both of them maintained many years of sobriety before they died of natural causes.
> 
> As long as you hang around, she's not going to bottom out. I walked through the place my husband spent the last nine weeks of his life. It was horrible to see. What lived there had been stripped of its humanity and was nothing more than a body chained to a bottle. My husband no longer ate the final months of his life. He dropped dead when his body could no longer live on booze.
> 
> It's up to you as to what you choose to do with your life. You can continue cohabitating with your wife and have a front row center to her alcoholic hell play. Or you can learn to mind your own business and focus on living your life. As I always say, YOUR life. YOUR choice.


I’ve always thought it would take some serious alcohol related health issue for her to find her bottom, but you may be right, she may also hit bottom if I did in fact abandoned her. She currently drinks 16 ounces of hard liquor every evening, realistically how much more can she consume? I suppose consumption is only part of the equation anyways. Perhaps in her case something extra such as losing everything meaningful in her life, is also needed.
Was it easy for you to walk away? I’m really struggling with it.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> ...... I didn’t get much out of marriage counselling, but I do remember our therapist saying* “the problems you have in this relationship are likely to become the same problems in your next”. *
> 
> Thank-you for your words of encouragement, and insights. *Perhaps I do need to hit the pause button, and work on healing myself first* before taking any drastic action. After all it’s only been 24 hours since I posted my marriage story, and prior to that I wasn’t thinking my ONLY option was to leave, but everyone telling me I should brought me to the brink of doing so in just one day. I was actually serious contemplating telling her I wanted a divorce, tonight. *Thanks, you just saved Christmas for us all!*


First of all, the marriage counselor gave you really good advice. It is telling that you remember it. If you have the strength to stop your own alcohol addiction, you have the strength to do wonders. You do not have to let circumstances make you a victim. You can plan your actions.

Figure out what you want. Figure out what you need to be happy. Then come up with a plan. My advice is to give your wife an opportunity to be part of your plan of moving forward with a new you. Remember that change for you will take time months to a year or more. 

Good luck and have a Merry Chirstmas with your family and I wish you the Happiest of New Years with a new and improved you.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

I've read and considered what you have written thus far. You are living on what-if thinking, not what-is. What is: You live with a drunk. You don't have a marriage. Hell, you don't even have decent companionship. But I guess a body that's totally crap faced is better than nobody at all, right? And your what-if is you'll lose everything, you'll have to get rid of your property, you'll end up in a squalid little apartment living on canned soup. That's the rabbit hole you've decided to go down.

So I'll tell you my story. It may just give you the perspective you need. My husband had drank his way out of yet another well-paying job in five years. He wasn't always that way, but his alcoholism had progressed to the point that he'd call in "sick" many days. Or he just wouldn't report to work. So I was faced with spending even more time in a backwater town in the middle of nowhere with a drunk. Jobs? Hell, it was 2009. The economy had tanked and I was living in far western Arizona. It had always been pretty damn bad there, but now it was abysmal. 

Me? Out of work. Out of patience. And, with cancer and no health insurance since my husband lost that when he lost his job, I was running out of luck. There are times in life when you have to decide if you're going to live with the crap. And if you decide to do that, then shut up and suck it up. Sorry. But it's YOUR choice. You make it, you live with it. Me? I packed up everything I wanted, told him I was leaving, and tied up a few lose ends. Liquidated two IRAs, got my name off the title of his truck, and got two people to pack up a U-Haul truck for me.

I'll cut to the chase. I ended up living in a 200 square foot room that was overpriced and advertised as an "efficiency apartment." It was me and my two cats. I managed to get a job paying $9.50 an hour at a fast food place in a mall food court. I told nobody about my illness. My family? They decided they didn't want to be bothered with me. Actually, I was okay with that. They had enough problems of their own.

I ended up with decent health insurance. I ended up undergoing six months of grueling chemo. I quit the lousy job in the food court. Today I live in Tucson. I am totally cancer free and have been for over 10 years. I live in a very large and very nice apartment - all granite and stainless steel nonsense. I have friends. I am solvent. I retired as a certified state elections official. I drive a nice car. I have a nice home. Actually, I have a nice life. And it's a Christmas of peace.

My guess is you'll stay because you're worried about losing all your stuff. That's fine, if that's what you choose to do.

But I left. And I thrived. And it DOES get better. I know of what I speak. Seriously.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> When asked years afterwards the majority of people are not any happier after divorcing. In my case I think the guilt I’d feel by leaving and knowing what that would do to my wife and family might feel just as crushing as putting up with her day to day. We’d also have to sell our 30 acres of heaven in the country which we’re both quite attached to, and we’d probably both end up living in tiny little apartments somewhere. Divorce would severely alter both our lives. It’s easy to say “just leave, leave now, what are you waiting for?” when you’re on outside observer, it’s another thing to be in this pickle and contemplating a new and very different life apart.
> 
> I don’t even know how divorce works exactly, don’t you have to be separated for a year first?


When asked, the majority of people aren't happy they divorced? That's completely false. 

I divorced under some tough circumstances, so it IS easy for me to give advice _that I actually took, myself_. 

You can make all of the excuses you want to stay in the hellish situation you are in. If you don't want to leave because you like your 30 acres, then don't divorce!

It's different depending on what state you are in. My state doesn't require separation.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

ETA: I forgot to mention that my car was totaled about two months before I started chemo. An 83-year-old man ran a stop sign and broadsided me. So, I finally had health insurance, but no vehicle to drive the 116 mile-each-way trip to the hospital where I would get treatment. Which meant I had to deal with my drunk estranged husband regarding finances so I could get something that would get me where I needed to go.

I ended up with a great little Ford that was four years old and had less than 25,000 miles on it. Reliable. Not fancy. But damned reliable. 

See, I live with WHAT-IS thinking. I don't catastrophize. I don't guess what the future holds. I live in the here-and-now. An important skill I learned in Al-Anon. It has served me well. 

So unless you think you are god and can control and know the outcomes in life, you are going to remain stuck. Or maybe you'll have another emotional affair. Or maybe you'll believe you just can't exist without being tethered to another life form. Sad, but true.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Google your state’s requirements. I was divorced in 60 days and 30 days of that was because I was in a large metro area and waiting on a spot on the judge’s schedule. I could have been free in 30 days if I had lived in a small town in my state. I think some states have even more lenient requirements than mine does. Some, of course, don’t. It obviously depends where you live. I divorced in my 60’s after decades of marriage to a serial cheater. Do I regret it? Not for a moment. It’s a very different life than I used to live but it’s 100% _my _life.


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

Livvie said:


> When asked, the majority of people aren't happy they divorced? That's completely false.
> 
> I divorced under some tough circumstances, so it IS easy for me to give advice _that I actually took, myself_.
> 
> ...


Google begs to differ ….
While *some may be happier after* a divorce, research indicates most adults that divorce have lower levels of happiness and more psychological distress compared to married individuals.

Yes there are some long standing serious issues with my marriage, alcoholism being a major one, but I’ve been with her for 38 years now, If I just leave without making any attempt to resolve our issues I feel that would be putting myself above family, Despite the lousy circumstances I currently find myself in I’m not sold on the idea that abandonment and going it alone is a solid plan for bringing me greater long term happiness.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> If I just leave without making any attempt to resolve our issues


So how do you plan to resolve her "issue" of alcoholism? I noticed you ignored what I had to say.

Look, you are going to remain with an alcoholic. That's fine. Alcoholism is an equal-opportunity destroyer. It will pull you under. However, if you get into serious counseling for yourself and make a sincere effort to attend Al-Anon (either in person or virtually), you will survive this. Thrive? No. But, hopefully, you will be able to detach.

Good luck.

ETA: You are choosing to remain in a sexless, loveless union. Please be aware this is because of your neediness. Not hers. Granted, she needs a life form around, too. But she's not posting, you are. I'd suggest you work on discovering why you are so needy that you can't be alone with yourself. After all, the bottom line is you are all you have.


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## Lotsofheart73 (Oct 13, 2021)

Based on your responses throughout this post, it seems to me that pros/cons lists are helpful to you. Maybe you should consider making an appointment with an attorney specializing in divorce to go over your specific situation. They can give you different scenarios of divorce to consider. It might not be as grim of a situation as you are picturing.


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## Lotsofheart73 (Oct 13, 2021)

Starting to live your life again (moving forward) is not abandonment. Your wife is free to come along with you or not.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> Google begs to differ ….
> While *some may be happier after* a divorce, research indicates most adults that divorce have lower levels of happiness and more psychological distress compared to married individuals.
> 
> Yes there are some long standing serious issues with my marriage, alcoholism being a major one, but I’ve been with her for 38 years now, If I just leave without making any attempt to resolve our issues I feel that would be putting myself above family, Despite the lousy circumstances I currently find myself in I’m not sold on the idea that abandonment and going it alone is a solid plan for bringing me greater long term happiness.


Too too bad that you find living with an extreme alcoholic more appealing than being a single man. 

I guess some people really can't be single and will live in horrifying circumstances to avoid it. You think being a single man would be more psychologically distressing than living with an alcoholic?

What are you going to do someday if you are widowed?


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Amen, @Livvie, amen. The thing is, this man is like the frog in the hot water. The frog got so acclimated to the water getting hotter that it boiled to death.

He's going to stay. At least for the time being. Men and women this needy are doing a disservice to themselves. The only time he ventured out to enjoy life, he ended up in an emotional affair. It breaks my heart to see this. But some people just make the choice to cling to others without ever realizing they can learn to love themselves without outside affirmation.


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## Lotsofheart73 (Oct 13, 2021)

And fwiw, I get it about the land, etc. I currently live on 20 acres. Not the most beautiful land but it offers privacy which I cherish. And lots of wildlife to view- large covies of quail, deer, turkey, red tail hawks, an occasional bobcat. It would be hard for me to consider losing it. But, you deserve to have a life. Again, consider the appointment with an attorney. Maybe there is a way you would be able to keep the land in a divorce scenario. If the numbers won’t work that way….you are still young. You can always find another place to buy in the future.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Livvie said:


> Too too bad that you find living with an extreme alcoholic more appealing than being a single man.
> 
> I guess some people really can't be single and will live in horrifying circumstances to avoid it. You think being a single man would be more psychologically distressing than living with an alcoholic?
> 
> What are you going to do someday if you are widowed?


It’s not just living with an alcoholic. It’s living with a “wife“ in a “marriage“ with no sex, no intimacy, no trust, no affection, no support, no partnership and it seems like straight up contempt and disdain. 
It is incomprehensible to me how this is in any way a hard decision.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

This is a prime example of the alcoholic's family being every bit as sick as the alcoholic. Sorry for being so blunt, but it's true


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Prodigal said:


> This is a prime example of the alcoholic's family being every bit as sick as the alcoholic. Sorry for being so blunt, but it's true


Yep, this is how codependency works.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

...but 30 acres...

🙄


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

Cynthia said:


> Addiction has such a profound impact on relationships that marriage counseling is pointless until the person has been in remission for quite a while. Addiction has to be meaningfully addressed first. This is likely a combination of a 12 step program and individual counseling.
> I recommend you read Codependent no More, by Melody Beattie and Facing Codependence, by Pia Mellody.
> There is no shame in wanting a healed marriage, no matter how unrealistic that may be. However, for there to be any chance at all of that happening, you must do your part, despite the pain addressing the issue will cause. I recommend writing a short letter to your wife telling her you love her, but you don't love the drinking or what it's doing to her or your marriage, so you are asking her to get immediate help or you're going to have to leave. This is more likely to start progress, if there's any hope at all, than continuing to ignore the problem or leaving without giving her a way forward. If you do this, at least you will know that you did your best. Otherwise, based on your comments, I think you will struggle with guilt.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Thankyou Cynthia,
I didn’t realize I was in a co-dependant relationship. After looking up the meaning, I do agree that this label quite accurately describes the relationship my wife and I share.
Thank you for your reading suggestions I will indeed pick up both Codependent no More, by Melody Beattie and Facing Codependence, by Pia Mellody.

Quite a bit has happened since I first posted a few days ago. This is my update….

Despite my wife’s alcoholism, after 38 years, she has become very attuned to me and our daughters and without my having directly broached the subject with her she now realizes I am considering separation which was clearly breaking her heart last night. I cuddled with her for the first time in ages while she cried and kept telling me how much she loved me.

I was in the middle of my first ever zoom therapy session with a social worker yesterday afternoon, when she surprised me by coming home early from work. We were discussing my marriage and our relationship issues, but by the time my wife came in the door the conversation had become focused on me and what I needed to do in order to find joy and happiness again. I thought it was my daughter coming back, after just having just left the house to give me some privacy. But 15 minutes later I heard my wife cough and I realized it was her. She never comes home early. The only thing I’m sure she overheard was the therapist telling me, happiness comes from within and I’ll never find lasting joy if I depend on getting it from another person. 
she suggested I read “The Magic” by Rhonda Bryne and that I begin meditating every morning.
I have another session booked with her next week, which will be in person this time.

My wife’s timing coming in the door seemed almost surreal, I think divine intervention was at play.
After my call ended she asked me “what was up”, and I told her I was getting some help to deal with my depression issues.
I then left to join my daughter at the gym. By the time I came home my other daughter was sending me text messages saying that mom was really upset because I wanted to separate. She was worried that mom had read a letter I had written about our relationship which I shared with my therapist as a kicking off point.
My therapist told me she thought my letter would make things much worse and told me not to give it to my wife. I deleted it but I didn’t empty the trash bin on the computer and she could have found it if she started snooping, (which she’s done in the past). That would explain everything.

I used a lot of the same text from my opening post, as well as some thoughts and ideas from all the wonderful people who have responded so far to my posts. Thank-you all so much!

If my wife did indeed read this note, I can’t help thinking the therapist may have been wrong. For the first time in over a decade, I am seeing a light at the end of the tunnel and it is because of this that I’ve decided to share it, because who knows, if it does end up helping me to move things forward with my relationship in a positive and constructive way, maybe it will also help someone else in a similar situation.

So…. Here it is, this is what the note said….

Reflections and thoughts about our relationship of almost 38 years. 

First and foremost I want you to know I still love you very much.

I decided to write down some of my thoughts, feelings, and concerns about our relationship, at this time, because I think we're both in trouble and corrective action needs to happen before things get any worse. 

So here it is.....
I like feeling appreciated much more than feeling despised. Unfortunately I feel I get a lot more of the latter in our relationship.
If I ask for a favor, of almost any kind, it’s usually made out to be a big inconvenience. Even the smallest thing like printing out a page for me at work, because I can no longer do that at home. If I get a response at all, it’s usually accompanied by anger, bitterness and/or dissatisfaction. I feel like I’m walking on egg shells most of the time. I rarely get supported, helped, or assisted with anything, without resentment for my having asked, being a part of the equation. And so, from now, I've decided, I'll try and not ask for anything from you again.
We are no longer romantically intimate, and haven’t been for ages. It’s in part due to your poor personal hygiene, (only showering once a week) and partly due to alcoholism, as well as my lack of desire.
My sense of self worth in our marriage is completely tied to whether or not I have a steady income. I feel as though you'd be quite happy, even if I completely hated my life because of having a totally lousy job (like becoming a garbage man as I mentioned I was considering doing last year) so long as I was bringing home a steady pay cheque. I’d be given zero support if I told you I wanted to take a risk and start any sort of new venture or business at this point, I feel like I’m only permitted to find a steady job again. I was only laid off one month ago and you already seem totally fed up with the situation. Except for the rare occasion when you're not drinking, it seems like your purposefully giving me the silent angry treatment pretty much all the time now.

I’m VERY proud of you for having managed a couple dry spells recently, the first one lasting a month! (I think). This gave me so much hope, but it’s obvious to me now that you really do need outside help if you ever hope to stop drinking (and smoking) for good. I'm concerned that you'll just try harder to hide the drinking if I continue to get on your case about it. I found 5 empty lcbo paper bags in the trunk of your car last week. What's that all about? Are you drinking at work now?
I have become numb to your negative take on everything which I've learned is a very “bad sign” in a marriage, (to be taken with a grain of salt I suppose, as this is coming from marriage counselors who've shared their expertise on line). 
I’ve also given up on, and am becoming numb to the fact that you're not eating and are replacing food with alcohol, most nights, while I make and enjoy a healthy meal for 2.
Alcoholism has made you incredibly forgetful and you repeat saying the same things over and over again, it can be very aggravating at times. You can't even remember movies we literally watched a couple of days earlier, because alcohol has taken away your ability to create memories, while your drunk. 
Every time you drink you black out mentally, and often physically as well. I feel it's pointless to have discussions about anything, until you're sober because I know you won’t remember a single thing that’s said, while you’re drunk. Our incredible daughter Lauri has confessed she avoids calling home at night anymore for the same reason.
It seems pretty much anything that upsets you is all the justification you need to drink, whether it be a hard day at work, or something you did that upset me, but most of the time, it seems, no reason at all is needed. You come in the door after a full day at work, and throw back a few stiff ones regardless of anything else.
I have often thought oh why bother with addressing things at this point by letting you know I've started to think that throwing in the towel is the only option left if I ever want to be happy again. I don't want to be this callous but the truth is, I believe your drinking and smoking will kill you soon anyways, which would no doubt leave me feeling devastated, but at the same time "I think" I might also feel relieved because it would save both of us all the headache and heartache associated with separating. Even though we don’t share any quality time anymore, I still realize I’d miss not having your company. I think your presence is still better than being alone (most of the time). Strangely I’ve realized, I even take comfort in just hearing you cough from the next room. There are things I’d miss about our marriage if it were to end ….having someone to worry about me when I’m late coming home, having someone to talk to, not being alone, being able to go away and do other things like camping with the kids, or spending a night with friends in the Muskoka’s, which is made possible because you're home to look after the animals. Lastly having some assistance with paying the bills makes our current residence possible, without which we’d be forced to sell our home, eventually. So yes, I know I need to find another job soon in order for us to continue to pay our bills, but I'd really like a chance to de-clutter and do some property maintenance first, which is simply not possible when I'm working 80 hours a week and only get a couple of days off a month.

When we were in marriage counseling I remember telling dad that I thought I was ready to move on and didn’t care what it did to our finances. With tears in his eyes he said “I think she really is a sweetie you know.” That really tugged at my heart strings and made me realize that leaving our marriage would affect all the family in our lives. You lose the continuity that a long term relationship provides.
Over a decade ago, I was presented with the opportunity to leave our marriage when our marriage counselor said “are you tired of climbing Everest, do you want to stop now?” I asked her to set that up and I thought it was what I wanted at the time, but in that moment I saw the forlorn look on your face and my heart sank and I just couldn’t bring myself to do it. That was the last marriage counseling meeting we had. I'd be willing to go back into counseling, but only if you stop drinking. 
I was eating breakfast as I started to write this Sunday morning, and when you walked into the room, instead of saying “good morning” you said nothing, you had a scowl on your face and looked at the floor. In this moment I felt the information you conveyed to me was ….oh it’s you, the person who disappoints me the most in life, I have no desire to talk to you. Perhaps I misread your body language and you were just hung over. The thing is I'm ALWAYS thinking your moods are 100% my fault for my having failed to meet your expectations. I think a great deal of my own depression is caused by these constant negative thoughts and feelings. I fear that if the cycle continues my mental and physical health are going to get much worse, and perhaps you'll end up being stuck having to nurse maid me for the rest of our lives, because I end up having a serious health crisis. 

The way things are now, there is nothing to look forward to in our relationship. I don't see us ever going out again, and outside of some home maintenance, I doubt we’ll ever do anything together again. Everything couples might do together seems completely off the table now. No long walks or bike rides, no camping, no outings of any kind, ever again. I get that we’re getting older, but even mom at 89 and dad at 87 still did a lot of things together like: lunches and dinners out, book clubmeetings and get togethers with several different groups and organizations, outings with friends, Muskoka retreat weekends, antique car tour trips, a trip south somewhere every winter. I think your alcoholism has made you completely anti social, as a result of the dependency ruling your life. I have very few friends in my life, and you have none now.

As far as our marriage is concerned I feel I exist for one reason only, to bring home a steady pay cheque, and perhaps, to a lesser degree, provide a presence in what would otherwise be quite a quiet and lonely existence, now that our kids have moved out.
When I’m not working I often feel like it’d be a great deal better if I were just dead as then you would at least have some life insurance money, and the kids might be around a bit more for awhile, at least until the grieving period was over.
A decade ago I was asked by 2 different people on 2 separate occasions, what I thought the purpose of life was. They both seemed shocked when I said, “nothing, I’m just waiting to die”. At the time, death seemed more desirable than living out the rest of my days in a crappy job and a miserable marriage. Now I’m a little more “on the fence about it”.
I gave up drinking a very long time ago now, and I had to give up smoking too as I had become SO unhealthy. The constant smell of cigarette smoke, and the combination of the smell of alcohol and cigarettes is especially revolting to me now. I want to distance myself as much as possible from it.
I think it’s also disgusting that after decades a person can still adamantly refuse to see a dentist. Teeth become stained and gross looking, and I don’t understand how you could not care in the slightest now that the discoloration has become so severe, and all dental costs would be covered by your health coverage from work.
I’m scared to have a normal conversation about anything when your mood is off, which is most of the time, because I fear the conversation will always go south, so why engage in the first place?

We still have honesty, trust and love (I think) But I’m convinced we’ll never be a truly happy couple again so long as you remain alcoholic, there’s just too many important things missing in our marriage, and sadly, nothing to look forward to, except for maybe the sweet release of death.

I feel like I’m at a crossroads. 
I feel I have only mediocre reasons for sticking it out in our marriage. The pluses are: 

#1. Our home still provides a safe haven for our daughters to come back to if and when they ever need to.
#2. It’s easier to do nothing than go through all the turmoil and hell associated with getting separated.
#3. There’s continuity with extended family when you stay with the same person.
#4. You still show me you care about me every now and then.
#5. I’m scared of going it alone.
#6. It’s easier to pay bills with 2 incomes.
#7. I'd have a very hard time dealing with guilt, if I abandoned you.

Some of the pitfalls of staying in this marriage as it is now are:

#1. Never having sex again 
#2. Constantly dealing with the emotional turmoil of being married to an alcoholic 
#3. Being constantly grossed out by the smell of alcohol and cigarettes 
#4. Likely having to look after you in the not too distant future in your time of need for the rest of our lives after the smoking and drinking causes you to have a stroke. One of the guys who comes to the Muskoka retreat weekends, Nick, had it happen to him, and for the last 20 years he's been looking after ALL of his wife's needs fulltime, because her stroke, (caused by her smoking and drinking) left her completely incapacitated. After her stroke she did stop smoking for quite awhile, but now Willie smokes almost 2 packs a day. Why? because she feels like such a burden to Nick, and she lives with so much physical pain all the time, Nick just told me "she has a death wish". I don't want either of us to go through the hell they're going through. If you aren't going to commit to getting sober, I fear our future could end up looking a lot like there's
#5. Living with your constant negativity drains me of all my positive energy 
#6. So long as you remain alcoholic we'll never have a social life ever again 
#7. I always feel like I’m not good enough, especially when I’m not working
#8. I'm always grappling with trying to stave off depression without the use of expensive pharmaceutical products, and the state of our marriage just makes things that much worse 
#9. In general, I feel you are very emotionally abusive towards me, and most of the time, I now try to avoid "it" and you because of it. I'm so tired of living this way! I've begun to feel like I'm in jail, and my jailor is a drunkard.

I attended my first Alanon meeting (on-line) on December 21st. It was very similar to AA and uses the same 12 step program. Lauri overheard it and said she thought the people who shared in the meeting were a great deal worse off than us. I agreed that being in an alcoholic relationship with a physical abuser was worse, but after thinking about it for a day, I'm not so sure anymore.

I'm not ready to give up on our marriage, so long as you are willing to commit to getting sober and quitting smoking, but if you're not, I feel I should let you know I am mentally preparing myself for a very different life in the future that will probably involve my living in a small apartment somewhere, alone and miserable for years to come. As much as I dread the idea, at least that existence offers the hope of a happier future at some point in the distant future. 
That’s it, that’s the note in its entirety. My apologies for the repetition and wordiness.

My wife just messaged my daughter Lauri that she’s leaving work early and will be home in an hour. She’s a “high functioning” alcoholic and her leaving work early, two days in a row has never happened before. She’s had to have read my note.

For the first time in forever, I’m feeling a genuine sense of hope. She obviously cares deeply about me and our marriage and I think that may be enough for her to commit lasting sobriety and working on fixing our broken relationship. And if not, perhaps I can still make things work by changing myself. 

When I asked my therapist yesterday if she thought I could make my relationship work again, she said, anything is possible but In my case, she felt I’d have to achieve a mental state akin to that of a monk. Lol, ironically, in the past, I’ve actually thought about becoming a monk and it still appeals to me. 

I realize that there are many people reading this thread and thinking, “you can never make it work, move on!” But I still believe that love has the power to move mountains, so we’ll see. It’s not over yet,


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

I'd suggest you visit a web site called Sober Recovery. There is a forum on the site called "Friends and Family of Alcoholics." The folks posting there have been in, or are currently in, relationships with alcoholics. There are also a number of reading suggestions and permanent threads to read. The permanent threads are there based on the moderators and readers feeling they are helpful to all who visit the forum.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> I became alcoholic after we met as well, but I stopped drinking during our honeymoon. She didn’t. She’s been an alcoholic for the entire 38 years we’ve been together. I’m convinced she’ll never change ultimatum or not.
> One of my daughters thinks I should have left her years ago.
> And yes you’re right I may not meet anyone else, but then again…,, I just might too….I taught Latin and ballroom dancing from 2010 to 2014, and I saw a lot of relationships come together in dance class.
> If I left her I’d be out dancing every night, in fact just the idea of doing it again excites me. Too bad there’s a pandemic going on.


You’ve wasted enough years - just divorce.
I’m sure your kids agree it’s not a healthy relationship.

Seriously, life is too short to waste one more day with an alcoholic (or anyone with an attitude like your partner).

You’ve lived your life by the rules others set for you - what a waste of time. Live to be happy… leave the unhappy people behind you. Move forward - and stop making excuses.

The ONLY reason you are stuck is because of your own choices.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I think it's just hopium. Notice how lightning fast you latched onto it.

Enter into it at your peril.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Well, I am in no position to give advice. At all. Seriously. That being said I have had many similar experiences to you. I am not here to bash your wife. I am not here to tell you to leave or to stay. I did both. If you read through my thread you can find many nuggets of truth some of which I am going to repeat now to you. It seems like you love the IDEA of your marriage. 38 years is a long time to invest in a hope, dream, or idea. It's not reality. You are getting older. I don't know about you but the older I get the less energy I have to "work things out" to make the dream a reality. Secondly your wife is smart. She has a well paying job that you have given no indication that her alcoholism is affecting (yet). Clearly, then, she has the capacity to reign in her drinking but she is not at home and that is a choice. (Also wondering what kind of job she has where she can show up unshowered and smelling of alcohol and cigs) which means she is choosing this life.

Also, I doubt your note, or her coming home early, or professions of love will last. It is called future faking with a good dose of fear on her part. Those are easy things to convince you to stay. Real love and wanting to work things out means fundamental changes. Throwing out the alcohol. Quitting smoking. Eating the dinner for two you prepared regularly. Real love won't be shown through a month long dry spell either. 

When I left I was willing to get back with my ex. He needed to prove he loved me. In the 6 months I have been gone he has not changed 1 single thing. Not 1 major thing. At this point to even consider getting back with him it would take YEARS of proof. A long term job. Steady housing. Cooperative coparenting. A self created life not dependent on my enabling. I still love my ex. I still feel guilty. But I am living in reality and not on his surface level love bombing. Don't fall into that trap. Please.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

What you are seeing is her fear that you’re going to leave. She may or may not actually put in the work that’s necessary but at the moment my guess is she’ll say anything to keep you where you are. Be cautious.


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

Prodigal said:


> I'd suggest you visit a web site called Sober Recovery. There is a forum on the site called "Friends and Family of Alcoholics." The folks posting there have been in, or are currently in, relationships with alcoholics. There are also a number of reading suggestions and permanent threads to read. The permanent threads are there based on the moderators and readers feeling they are helpful to all who visit the forum.


Thanks, I just checked it out.

I’ve learned a great deal in the last few days. It’s a little astonishing to me that after all this time I didn’t have a clue I was living in a text book co-dependent relationship. Why I didn't look into getting help or doing anything about my marital situation until now has had a lot to do with my dad.

It’s been almost a year since he passed away. He went way above and beyond and did everything in his power to support our relationship which, sadly, didn’t really help at all with the core issue, but instead, for the last decade, his involvement in our lives was the glue that kept us together, and perhaps, just prolonged the inevitable. He wanted us to stay together so much, he kept me from even considering divorce by always being around and very involved in our lives. We became his main project for the last decade or so of his life. He did soooo much for us, such as putting a 100k addition on our house, a 30k propane boiler and heating system, building us a new modem kitchen complete with all new cupboards. appliances, and granite counter tops. He turned our wood shed into a modem office with a new shower/laundry section. Our place is amazing now! His way of supporting our relationship and keeping us together, was to turn our dilapidated 140 year old home into a comfortable modem day one that we could live out the rest of our lives in.
It would have broken his heart if I’d left my wife, and I couldn’t bare to do that to him. 
My mom use to be a public health nurse, she’s a bit more realistic about our situation, and she really surprised me recently by implying that I probably ought to be thinking about making the hard decision to leave. 

My dad was my best friend, my mentor, and the biggest supporter in my life. I miss him terribly, he was such a great man. 
Dad was well aware of my wife’s drinking problem, but it didn’t matter to him. He just wanted us to stay together, no matter what, and all his support helped do just that.
I guess I’m also a prime example of how a parent can play a big role in mitigating and keeping a co dependent relationship going, in spite of seriously messed up circumstances.

Thanks again for recommending the other website/forum. I would have probably posted there first, had I known about it.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Your Dad sounds like a wonderful man. But it strikes me that something ugly is going on where he is concerned. You and your wife may have (unwittingly) taken advantage of his generosity and when your Dad passed and the generosity stopped flowing you had nothing to distract you from your marriage any more. You said earlier that you feel like just a payche ck to her. Now you have this big remodeled house with alot of land that has to be cared for. You are 2 aging people whose kids are flown in a big remodeled house with alot of land. Now your father is not there to ease the financial pressure of that for either of you. Now you want to switch careers for something more satisfying, and presumably pays less. But in order to do that you can't afford the big house/land. Or maybe you can? If you don't need the money to maintain your house why does your wife insist on both of you working? She doesn't sound like the high maintenance type wife who goes to the salon, or wants expensive trips, heck she won't even go to the doctor! So don't say you are staying in this marriage out of some loyalty toward your Dad's memory. Good parents want their kids to be happy no matter what.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

You really should have left a long time ago to protect your daughters from all the damage that has been done to them but it's not to late to show them that enabling such behaviour is wrong. 
You deliberately paint any post divorce life as black as you can when it needn't be that way at all. There is absolutely no need for either of you to live in grotty apartments unless you choose to. You have a house and land that sounds as if it's worth a lot of money. You have well paid jobs, you will almost certainly be able to buy a nice home each. 

So you have never lived alone or been independent? Well don't you think it's time you actually learnt to do so? 

The life you are living is hellish. You have taught your daughters that they need to put up with abuse. That they shouldn't leave even if they are at risk of a mental breakdown. 

I dont think you will leave no matter what. I think you will keep hoping for something to change, but it's unlikely it will. 
That's your choice of course but its sad. 

In your place if I was in fear of leaving, I would at least set boundaries and conditions that were not negotiable.
Things like she must go to AA. She must stop drinking. That she must start eating properly. Cut down with the aim to stop smoking. She must treat you with decency. Plus other things you can think of


To be honest I am very surprised that she is in anyway surprised that you are thinking of leaving. Most people would have got out years ago.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> It would have broken his heart if I’d left my wife, and I couldn’t bare to do that to him.


I'm wondering why your dad was so emotionally invested in YOUR marriage. He wanted you to stay with an alcoholic. I don't understand why he would want that. I assume he saw the stress it was putting on you.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Prodigal said:


> I'm wondering why your dad was so emotionally invested in YOUR marriage. He wanted you to stay with an alcoholic. I don't understand why he would want that. I assume he saw the stress it was putting on you.


Plus you think he would have been very concerned about his granddaughters growing up in that very messed up situation.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> Thanks again for recommending the other website/forum. I would have probably posted there first, had I known about it.


The Sober Recovery forums don't get as much traffic as TAM, but you can talk to folks there who have a close relationship to alcoholics. In fact, I'd suggest you read on the Alcoholism and Alcoholics in Recovery forums on Sober Recovery to gain more knowledge from those who are recovering from alcoholism or dealing with active alcoholism.

Why not post a shorter version of your situation over on Friends and Family of Alcoholics? They can offer you their ESH (experience, strength, and hope).


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> I honestly didn’t know what to expect by spilling my guts on line, but I’m delighted to get any sort of feedback at this point
> I think you’re right, a real solution that addresses the root problems isn’t likely to ever happen.
> but honestly I’m not sure leaving her now makes sense, her mother died at 57, and she didn’t smoke or drink. Her mother’s siblings also died very young, and my wife has always maintained that she too will die by age 57 (which is only 1 year away now) and she seems to be doing all the right things to make this placebo a reality. I just need to hang in there 1 more year and it’ll likely be all over. Praise the lord.


Well if you are serious about this then I suggest you take out a big life insurance policy on her now.

But really, 38 years is long enough. Even your daughter knows she isn’t being a wife.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> Google begs to differ ….
> While *some may be happier after* a divorce, research indicates most adults that divorce have lower levels of happiness and more psychological distress compared to married individuals.
> 
> Yes there are some long standing serious issues with my marriage, alcoholism being a major one, but I’ve been with her for 38 years now, If I just leave without making any attempt to resolve our issues I feel that would be putting myself above family, Despite the lousy circumstances I currently find myself in I’m not sold on the idea that abandonment and going it alone is a solid plan for bringing me greater long term happiness.


Your codependency runs deep. Read co dependent no more by Beattie.
It appears you are willing to stay in a severely depressed and one sided marriage instead of being on your own.
Get some counseling. It appears you are just as sick as your wife by your willingness to stay in an unhealthy and unhappy relationship instead of point blank telling her “quit today or I’m leaving this marriage”!
The level of unhealthy in this scenario is extreme. Get daily support from an Al Anon group in your area. 
Staying is like a death sentence and one would ask why you would choose that each day.

Abd at times like this - love just isn’t enough. In fact, she hasn’t been her true self for all of the 38 years - so you don’t really know who the real (sober) version she is. You have no idea. She’s been checked out for 38 years!!! 
It’s time to tell her stop drinking or I’m leaving!


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

I wonder why your Dad would encourage you to stay with a raging alcoholic? It’s like he was encouraging you to live a torturous life. That’s not right. And why did HE get SO much say in what you did in your marriage? 
You need to do some serious work on your own self esteem issues, boundaries (lack of) and settling for a punish life instead of living a life of freedom and joy.
Your Dad may have loved you - but he certainly didn’t do you any good by encouraging you to stay in a VERY unhealthy marriage!
When a marriage looks like this - you SHOULD end it! 
IF she decides to stay sober long term after divorcing her - great! Maybe then you can attempt to get to know the sober version of your wife (the one you don’t know). Then maybe you could get to know her by forming a very limited “friendship”. 
Your wife has short changed you of having a real life partner. You should be mad! And your dad saying you had to stay is just plain wrong!
Your dad being involved in your daily married life is creepy too. There is no boundary you enforce. Please seek help!


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> You really should have left a long time ago to protect your daughters from all the damage that has been done to them but it's not to late to show them that enabling such behaviour is wrong.
> You deliberately paint any post divorce life as black as you can when it needn't be that way at all. There is absolutely no need for either of you to live in grotty apartments unless you choose to. You have a house and land that sounds as if it's worth a lot of money. You have well paid jobs, you will almost certainly be able to buy a nice home each.
> 
> So you have never lived alone or been independent? Well don't you think it's time you actually learnt to do so?
> ...


Thank-you Diana,
And thank-you everyone else as well.
I have read and absorbed everyone’s responses, I just haven’t had time yet to respond to everyone.

I’m starting to better understand just how serious my situation is. Please forgive my ignorance about everything so far, I’m learning as I go. I did lots of reading on the verywellmind.com website tonight, and discovered a surprising number of parallels between the common relationship issues described on the site and my own. Alcoholism and co dependency is at the root of everything but there are many other things that stuck out which have also made our relationship toxic. Stonewalling, and verbal abuse are also near the top of the list.

Progress has been made!
While Kim, did not end up reading my letter afterall, she did pick up on some cues from my daughters and I which made her jump to the conclusion that I was going to leave the marriage.
So, after talking about that and making some small talk about the results of my job searches so far and sharing our perspectives on the purpose of life……
I finally “manned up” and talked to her about her drinking. This is what came out….
“There’s something else I’ve been meaning to talk to you about but I’ve been finding it really difficult to bring up. Your drinking has really starting to affect my health and yours. It feels like someone has punched me in the gut all the time and I just can’t take it anymore. You can’t remember a movie we watched 2 days ago because you’ve lost the ability to create memories while you are drunk. Our kids don’t want to be around home anymore because our relationship has made our home a toxic environment. We’re broken and we need to fix it.”

That’s as far as I went with it.
She said nothing for a few minutes while I began to feel as though an elephant had just sat on my chest. I knew I was having an anxiety attack but it felt more like a heart attack,
That feeling has now subsided, her and the elephant have left the room.
As difficult as that was, I do feel MUCH better now. I wish I hadn’t waited so long, I wish I had done this a decade ago, but I felt especially trapped then because I knew my dad really wanted us to make it work. I think he thought he was helping us by keeping me really occupied and distracted for the last 10 years, while I helped him make all the aforementioned home improvements during all my spare time.
On the upside he helped raise our property value tremendously, on the downside it taught my daughters exactly what you eluded to, that living with an alcoholic in a toxic relationship no matter what, is sometimes just what you have to do in a marriage. Hopefully I can undo some of that damage.
I agree too that I need to immediately set up the boundaries you mentioned. I already know they won’t be followed, but that’s ok, at least it shows I tried and gives me a more “guilt free” out, which I’m starting to think is the direction I really MUST GO if I ever want to be happy again.

I’m now going to focus most of my spare time on getting our place ready to sell come spring, because I think that’s the most likely scenario to play out. Even after paying capital gains and splitting everything 50/50, you’re probably right, neither of us is likely to have to live in a dingy apartment, unless we choose to.

All the items on your boundary list are doomed to fail, they’re all impossibilities.

#1. Must go to AA. (This will never happen)
#2. Must stop drinking. (If she even tries again this will last 1 month maximum)
#3. She must start eating properly. (not going to happen, ever)
#4. Cut down with the aim to stop smoking.
( After 40 years? Also, not happening)
#5. Must treat me with decency. 
(Isn’t in her, old patterns are too entrenched)

Thanks Diana (and everyone else) for helping educate me and for sharing your insights and providing me with helpful guidance. I feel as though I have lots of new friends who are all looking out for my best interests and care what happens to me. Thanks!!


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Well, I guess you realize she isn’t going to change.
What you really need to do is change things yourself.

It doesn’t matter what she may or may not do now - you need to do things to help your life get better.

Your daughters haven’t had a mom either. Your wife has stolen the wife and mother role from the family. 

It’s time for all of you to start living a different/better life. She will choose the same - drinking and smoking - let her do that. You do you.


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

Beach123 said:


> Well, I guess you realize she isn’t going to change.
> What you really need to do is change things yourself.
> 
> It doesn’t matter what she may or may not do now - you need to do things to help your life get better.
> ...


Thank-you, I will,


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Beach123 said:


> Well, I guess you realize she isn’t going to change.
> What you really need to do is change things yourself.
> 
> It doesn’t matter what she may or may not do now - you need to do things to help your life get better.
> ...


I agree with all the above but I also wanted to add that your wife, for all her faults and hang ups, is still entitled to be treated with a modicum of decency. By this I mean be careful of developing any type of romantic relationship outside your marriage if you actively choose to stay with her. Having lurked on TAM over the years it's situations like yours where I have seen people feeling justified in cheating in one way or another. Especially now that you are feeling more comfortable online it's very easy to at least develop an emotional affair outside your marriage. It would be better for both of you to make the break now, rather than try to come to terms with an affair later on...


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

Erudite said:


> I agree with all the above but I also wanted to add that your wife, for all her faults and hang ups, is still entitled to be treated with a modicum of decency. By this I mean be careful of developing any type of romantic relationship outside your marriage if you actively choose to stay with her. Having lurked on TAM over the years it's situations like yours where I have seen people feeling justified in cheating in one way or another. Especially now that you are feeling more comfortable online it's very easy to at least develop an emotional affair outside your marriage. It would be better for both of you to make the break now, rather than try to come to terms with an affair later on...


Even if we were to separate immediately and start living apart, it’s still considered an affair if anything happens within one year. The laws where I live even state that an emotional affair, which has only occurred on-line, can still be considered adultery.

I sent my wife an email message first thing this morning. Surprisingly, she seems unphased by it so far, and things have been quite civil between us all day. We even shared a few laughs. If she were to continue to behave the way she is behaving now AND seriously commit to change, I would not be able to turn my back on her, because that would be a clear indication that she was ready and willing to do the hard work necessary to save our marriage, plus…. I still love her.

This is the message I sent…..

*Change Boundaries*

Changes need to happen…..not down the road sometime, but now. I’ve reached my tipping point.

If you are unwilling to, that’s ok, it’s your life, your choice, but I refuse to stay around and watch your disease continue to progress the way that it has over the past decade, You are a full blown alcoholic, and have been for a very long time, and it’s taking an enormous toll on me and our family. 

Boundaries: 
#1. Must start going to AA regularly.
#2. Must stop drinking. 
#3. Must start eating properly. Dinner every night for example.
#4. Must treat me with decency. 
#5. Cut down with the aim to stop smoking.

(end of message)

Maybe love can move mountains, maybe I’m just prolonging the inevitable. Maybe I’m being totally unrealistic, given her history, and perhaps she’ll go right back to drinking tonight just like she did last night. It’s such a head game at this point. Addiction is so powerful!


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> Even if we were to separate immediately and start living apart, it’s still considered an affair if anything happens within one year. The laws where I live even state that an emotional affair, which has only occurred on-line, can still be considered adultery.
> 
> I sent my wife an email message first thing this morning. Surprisingly, she seems unphased by it so far, and things have been quite civil between us all day. We even shared a few laughs. If she were to continue to behave the way she is behaving now AND seriously commit to change, I would not be able to turn my back on her, because that would be a clear indication that she was ready and willing to do the hard work necessary to save our marriage, plus…. I still love her.
> 
> ...


It's admirable that you want to work on it. Have you read any of the Al-Anon stuff yet?


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> It's admirable that you want to work on it. Have you read any of the Al-Anon stuff yet?


So far I have only attended the one Al-Anon meeting a few days ago. But thanks for the suggestion I’ll take a look at the reading material they have posted on line as well.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

It’s amazing that with such minimal effort for a few hours today - you become willing to overlook decades of your wife being MIA in your marriage.

This is NOT about her changing for a few hours! This is about her changing for the long long haul! 
You are so starved of decent behavior you get all excited just because she’s on good behavior for a couple of hours. Stop that! She should have been being a good wife and parent for ALL these years. Now she knows there is a consequence - so expect good behavior for maybe a few days. It is the long term change you are looking for from her.
But really, start setting yourself up as if she won’t succeed - so that way you aren’t disappointed. And if she does well it can be a surprise.

Don’t get all gushy with her - she has decades to make up for. Stay neutral and see how she does. It may be hard for her - but the bottom line is “it is HERS to do”.

You stick to your boundary. You plan as if you want a new future - see if she follows suit.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

You have to walk a difficult line with her now. 

You have to be hard line on the boundaries for at least six months. She has to feel the weight of your decision to go if she doesn't change. Atthe same time she will need love and cuddles and you can tell her "it's not over yet" to give her hope. Kindness and firmness in equal measure. She has never known you with a backbone and she will likely test you.

I think you're doing really well. Remember your long term goals. And when it feels harsh and she cries like her heart might break remember this is as much for her as it is for you.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Thinking that a couple hours of tolerable behavior is the turning of a new leaf and a new lease on life is classic codependency. 

I even disagree with the poster above saying 6 months. 

At minimum it will take YEARS to fix this and even then it will be a life long battle. 

So much of the standard advice handed out to copedendants is how to suck up and endure. They tell the codep on how to keep the alcoholic alive and with a minimum of trouble to society out in the street. It’s not geared towards YOUR better interests or well being. 

My advice is save yourself. Hand her the AA and treatment center pamphlets and wish her well. 

If in 5 years she is clean and sober and living a healthy and productive life and if you are both single at the time and want to see if you two have any interest in each while you are both sober (a lot of alcoholics and codependents find they don’t like each other sober) then you can have a Starbucks date and see how it goes.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I agree with previous posters. She needs to know that you will expect these changes for at least a year before you will make a decision.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

What’s the update? Has she still been drinking since you had the talk with her? Is she doing anything different the past few days?

Even if she is - you just move forward finding a way to be happy all on your own - whether she gets/stays sober or not.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

People can say anything, it’s what they actually do that means anything. 

One of my wife’s childhood friends kept promising she’d stop and her H rarely actually saw her drink but and she was always successful in a decent job but he could tell her general state of health and mentality kept declining.

One night in the middle of the night he woke up to a crash and she had fallen down the stairs and had knocked herself out and banged herself up and he called 911.

While in the hospital they found she was in end-stage liver and kidney failure and sent her to hospice where she died a few weeks later. She was only 48/49. 

He packed up the kids and moved back to his home state. 

While cleaning out the house he found bottles stashed in about every nook and cranny in the house. 

He knew she was an alcoholic and knew she was sick but had no idea the depth or severity. 

He always took her at her word that she was trying and that “this time” would be the last time she drank. 

I suspect you also only know the tip of the iceberg and you also take her at her word any time she says she’ll try to clean up or try to do better. 

It is just words to appease you to get you off her back in that moment in time.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

oldshirt said:


> People can say anything, it’s what they actually do that means anything.
> 
> ......
> 
> ...


I suspect she means it in the moment. That is why it is so convincing. She is probably lying to herself as much as him. The truth is alcoholics don't need an excuse. What they tell themselves when they decide to drink and what they tell other people after are often not even the same thing!

The thing is that OP thinks she loves him and that because she loves him, their family, and life it will create remorse and a desire to do better if he says he will leave. He thinks remorse will be the driver of change, when in reality, she is speaking from a place of fear. Fear is not a sustainable place to make changes from. Fear creates adreneline and hightened emotions. It will wear off. 

I would say that OP has a very short window to get her into a self help program.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Erudite said:


> She is probably lying to herself as much as him. The truth is alcoholics don't need an excuse. What they tell themselves when they decide to drink and what they tell other people after are often not even the same thing!


I'm sure you've heard the old saying: How can you tell when an alcoholic is lying? Their mouth is moving and sounds are coming out.

Sad, but true.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

A18S37K14H18 said:


> Marriage is a partnership and she long ago quit being an actual partner to you, with you and for you.
> 
> One person, one partner can't make the other change.
> 
> ...


THIS ^^^^


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

Prodigal said:


> I'm sure you've heard the old saying: How can you tell when an alcoholic is lying? Their mouth is moving and sounds are coming out.
> 
> Sad, but true.


I actually haven’t heard that saying before, , but reading it just now made me laugh. I guess that means it rings true for me too.

Lots of excellent feedback, thank-you again everyone. This is my Boxing Day update….

My youngest daughter left home and drove 10 hrs to be with her boyfriend on Christmas Eve day, and she just let us know she’s “thinking about” staying with him until after New Years.
Her boyfriend received a positive Covid test on Wednesday, just 2 days prior!

Long ago, when my wife’s alcoholism was much less severe, Christmastime was a very special time of year and we always enjoyed spending it together as a family. Now it seems both my daughters want to be as far away as possible, and apparently would prefer catching Covid to spending the holidays at home.

My daughters boyfriend told her not to come. At first he was angry that she’d shown up, but he forgave her Christmas Day, and sent me the following message last night …

Merry Christmas!! 🎅 
Thanks for the awesome gifts, will definitely put them to good use, much appreciated! 😃
Hopefully I can get a negative test soon.. 
It’s been amazing having Lauri here, I’m not gonna lie it was looking like it was going to be a very lonely Christmas. Even though we’ve kept our distance it made all the difference, you guys have an amazing daughter! ❤

My other daughter (who is engaged to the alcoholic) is with her fiancé and his family in Florida for the foreseeable future. It feels a little like I’ve lost both of them for now, because of the toxic environment that’s persisted for so long at home which has become more than they can bare.

In the afternoon on Christmas Day, my wife and I got together with my mom, my brother and sister and their spouses as well as my niece, her husband and their newborn. We all took a rapid antigen test first, and wore masks the whole time we were together, except for during dinner. 

It ended up being a very pleasant Christmas, not a drop of alcohol was consumed by anyone, and for the 2nd day in a row, my wife was civil with me. I recognize that she is still trying to push my hot buttons but I’m refusing to take the bait, and we haven’t had an argument in 2 days because of that.

I’m genuinely feeling a different energy at home; however, after all the feedback I’ve been getting about the reality of my situation, I’m a lot less naive than I was a week ago and I realize this isn’t likely to last.

I do feel I need to offer my wife a way forward as well as show my daughters I’m making a concerted effort to fix our broken relationship. They too seem to recognize my efforts will probably end up failing but they are both happy I’m trying to facilitate positive change. I’ve been keeping them in the loop. My eldest daughter, (with the alcoholic fiancé) just wrote me back and said…..

“Happy you’re being open and honest dad. It’s important to do that. I really hope things play out in a way that you’re both happy ❤

Also there’s no way she’s unphased. She might not address it right away but I bet her mind is running a mile a minute.”

My wife just left to visit her sister. I know there’s hard liquor stashed all over our house. I realize it’s just a half measure, and probably won’t make any difference in the long run, but I’m now going to remove the temptation for her to sneak drinks, by performing a thorough search and throwing it all out. I’m curious to see just how much I find. 

Hope everyone had a good Christmas I’ll post again soon.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> I realize it’s just a half measure, and probably won’t make any difference in the long run, but I’m now going to remove the temptation for her to sneak drinks, by performing a thorough search and throwing it all out. I’m curious to see just how much I find.


What do you think you'll accomplish doing this? And why are you sticking YOUR nose in HER addiction? You should be on the phone or in a virtual Al-Anon meeting like NOW. Tell them about your plan before implementing it. They're going to tell you the same thing I'm going to tell you. This is (1)classic codependent behavior, (2)you have no business attempting to clean up her side of the street and (3) you need to mind your own business.

If you cannot see this is every bit as sick as the alcoholic's disease, then you are just blowing smoke up everyone's respective asses here. Seriously.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

I've been thinking about all you've written. And I still don't exactly know why your father stuck his nose in your marriage so much. Did it ever occur to you to politely tell him it wasn't his marriage or his business?

Something is off about this whole thing. You write long responses, but you don't necessarily answer direct questions.

And you claim you have been reading up on codependency. If this is true, why would you be prancing around the house playing scavenger hunt with the bottles your wife has hidden?

I'd really appreciate it if, when you return, you answer the questions I've posed. Thank you.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Prodigal said:


> I've been thinking about all you've written. And I still don't exactly know why your father stuck his nose in your marriage so much. Did it ever occur to you to politely tell him it wasn't his marriage or his business?
> 
> Something is off about this whole thing. You write long responses, but you don't necessarily answer direct questions.
> 
> ...


I am beginning to think that OP was afraid to get cut off from the money more than he was afraid to hurt Dad's feelings.

Also all the other things he has mentioned that are problems seem to no longer be relevent? We seem to be focusing on the alcohol as the main culprit but it wasn't all that. What about the lack or intimacy? The attraction? The condescending attitude?

Beginning to think I would like to hear wife's side of story.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

You allowed yourself to be abused and ignored by this woman for 38 years.
You need a good trauma counselor to help you understand why you made that choice over and over again.

Get a good therapist - you are going to need one.

You do realize she can go right out and buy any alcohol she wants right? Why haven’t you demanded she go to rehab?


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Why did she go to visit her sister? How long will she be gone?

You realize her behavior has pushed both of your kids away from home?

Why aren’t you mad? She has purposely ruined the entire family unit! Why aren’t you flaming mad?


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Erudite said:


> We seem to be focusing on the alcohol as the main culprit but it wasn't all that. What about the lack or intimacy? The attraction? The condescending attitude?


Well, his wife IS an alcoholic. If she works a solid program of recovery, she'll have to face the other issues and own what is hers to own. But without abstinence from alcohol, all the other things are secondary. As I recently said in another thread here: A drunk/alcoholic asshole will often turn into a sober/abstinent asshole. But it remains to be seen here.

Granted, the lack of intimacy and the way she treated OP would be enough for me to head out the door, but he's a textbook case of codependency. I mean, c'mon ... the guy is running around the house looking for hidden bottles and tossing them out. Which tells me this poor slob is in the deepest and sickest form of denial. Just like the alcoholic.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Prodigal said:


> Well, his wife IS an alcoholic. If she works a solid program of recovery, she'll have to face the other issues and own what is hers to own. But without abstinence from alcohol, all the other things are secondary. As I recently said in another thread here: A drunk/alcoholic asshole will often turn into a sober/abstinent asshole. But it remains to be seen here.
> 
> Granted, the lack of intimacy and the way she treated OP would be enough for me to head out the door, but he's a textbook case of codependency. I mean, c'mon ... the guy is running around the house looking for hidden bottles and tossing them out. Which tells me this poor slob is in the deepest and sickest form of denial. Just like the alcoholic.


I agree. It's just weird to think she is holding down a job when her personal hygiene is so bad her own husband doesn't want to initiate anything. He makes cryptic remarks about his Dad and their marriage. Says he feels only like a paycheck. Can he really live like that until she gets sober? I agree with your instinct that there is more to the story.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> ........I sent my wife an email message first thing this morning. Surprisingly, she seems unphased by it so far, and things have been quite civil between us all day. We even shared a few laughs. If she were to continue to behave the way she is behaving now AND seriously commit to change, I would not be able to turn my back on her, because that would be a clear indication that she was ready and willing to do the hard work necessary to save our marriage, plus…. I still love her.
> 
> This is the message I sent…..
> 
> ...


Congratulations! A few more thoughts.

It sounds like she took things well, which is wonderful. She may even have hoped someone would reach out to save her.

You now have a complex and heavy responsibility. You have to understand the difference between being an enabler and being her mentor and guide.

#1. Is there a way you can make her going to AA more of a fun thing? Driver to and pick her up from the meeting? Go with her as a former alcoholic? Turn those into date nights by going out to dinner afterwards?

#2 Is there a way to help her stop drinking? Do you know what her major trigger was to start drinking, was it boredom, depression, or something else? Is there something that the two of you can do when she has an urge to drink to help her distract herself from her addiction? Can you become her new (non-destructive) addiction or diversion?

#3. As to eating properly and dinner. Can the two of you plan menu's for the week and go grocery shopping together? Can you work together in the kitchen to prepare the meals? Turn it into something fun that she looks forward to.

#4. As to treating you with respect and decency, is there anything you can do to provide her with positive feedback? How can you reinforce her respectful and loving actions?

#5. As to stopping smoking, perhaps there are ways you can help her end this other addiction.

Finally, sometimes when one is doing a really hard thing like loosing weight, it helps to have shorter term and long term goals and rewards. For example, my goal for the following week is X and if I achieve it I get a 90 minute massage or some minor thing I have been wanting to buy. When I reach my ideal weight, I will go out and buy new clothes and go on a vacation and do things that make me feel like I am celebrating what I have accomplished.

Again, congratulations. She is going to try to rebuild your marriage. Once she makes some initial progress figure out how to support her, motivate her and reward her for good progress. Maybe you can even get your marriage counselor and your two daughters to help you with ideas on what would be most helpful.

I wish you and your wife and daughters a great New Year full of promise.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Young at Heart said:


> Congratulations! A few more thoughts.
> 
> It sounds like she took things well, which is wonderful. She may even have hoped someone would reach out to save her.
> 
> ...


That sounds like a full time job.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> Congratulations! A few more thoughts.
> 
> It sounds like she took things well, which is wonderful. She may even have hoped someone would reach out to save her.
> 
> ...


This is just seriously MORE enabling! It isn’t his to do. It’s HERS to do. And she either will or she won’t.

There is NO reason for him to assist her in this. That’s just MORE codependency.

As a person who has sponsored hundreds in AA and Al Anon - just don’t! That would just make the dynamic Ben more twisted. She is responsible for her own recovery! He can’t do it FOR her… nor should he be enabling any further.

What job does she hold down? Can she support herself on the money she earns?


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

@Young at Heart - He doesn't have or need to do anything you suggested. His focus should be on HIS recovery, not hers.

And as far as someone mentoring her? It's called a sponsor. She gets one in A.A. Specifically, someone who has loads of recovery.

This is one of the main reasons I suggested OP post on the Sober Recovery forum. TONS of recovery by codies and alkies there. He can read up on his codependency and her alcoholism. Apparently, he's decided instead to search for bottles. I wonder if this guy is actually sincere at all about his plan(s). Doesn't sound like it to me ....


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

While anything is possible you have to temper that with probable.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Young at Heart said:


> #2 Is there a way to help her stop drinking?


OMG. WTF???? This is the very antithesis of what recovery is about. She's an alcoholic! Step 1: "We admitted that we were powerless over alcohol; that our lives had become unmanageable." It's not HIS life; it's HERS. The very essence of codependency is him getting involved in her recovery. You can't "help" an alcoholic stop drinking. Why? Because one drink is too many and a thousand drinks are never enough. It's not his damn business to mess with her lack of recovery. 



Young at Heart said:


> #1. Is there a way you can make her going to AA more of a fun thing?


Sorry. No. A.A. isn't about "fun." It's about alcoholics who have hit their rock bottom and are clawing their way back to sobriety. I have known literally hundreds of alcoholics during my recovery in Al-Anon. Nobody is there to have "fun."

P.S. - I'm not saying this to diss you or be mean. But I've been in Al-Anon since 1996. I know a thing or two about recovery. Sorry, but what you are suggesting just won't work with alcoholics and their enablers.


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## discombobulatedwithspouse (Dec 19, 2021)

Prodigal said:


> OMG. WTF???? This is the very antithesis of what recovery is about. She's an alcoholic! Step 1: "We admitted that we were powerless over alcohol; that our lives had become unmanageable." It's not HIS life; it's HERS. The very essence of codependency is him getting involved in her recovery. You can't "help" an alcoholic stop drinking. Why? Because one drink is too many and a thousand drinks are never enough. It's not his damn business to mess with her lack of recovery.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can see I’ve clearly upset many of you. Thanks “young at heart” for remaining my beacon of hope and for all your great suggestions and ideas. If everyone shared the same mentality as you I bet there’d be a great deal fewer divorces in the world. 

To those whom I’ve clearly upset, again, my apologies for my lack of insight and knowledge especially in regards to co-dependent relationships. I literally only came to know what that term means a few days ago. I’m not an expert yet, but in time perhaps I will become more of one.

I understand there are established stringent ways and methods for typically dealing with an alcoholic. There are things you should and shouldn’t do to aid them in their recovery. These tried and true methods cannot be ignored or dismissed as they have been established through decades of implementation with millions of alcoholics. They work for the vast majority, and I know that. But are they effective 100% of the time with 100% of the people who’ve tried them? No! sometimes they don’t work, either because the alcoholic is not fully committed, or perhaps it’s just not the right fit for certain individuals. I hated going to AA, but I went nonetheless, and Alanon seems very similar to me. I’m going to continue with it, for now, but it’s my fond hope I won’t have the need to forever more. I’m sorry, but it just doesn’t feel like a great fit for me. 

I’ve put up with a great deal of difficulties in my relationship especially over the past decade as I’ve watched my wife’s alcoholism get worse and worse. As has been not so subtly pointed out, despite my short comings and apparent gross mishandling of things, the results I’ve experienced thus far, especially over the past few days have been truly magical for a change, and I really do owe the thanks to ALL OF YOU! You’ve all helped me, in your own ways, to start a shift of the kind I’ve never seen before in my relationship, and that is a VERY GOOD thing. If your aim was to help me get through this in a positive and constructive manner please give yourselves a pat on the back for having succeeded in the most extraordinary way I ever could have imagined.

I knew I’d get reamed out for telling you about my going ahead with conducting a bottle search today. It’s clear to me that my wife has been under the mistaken impression that she can hide her drinking from me. Over the last few months she!s used both air fresheners and chewed halls to try and cover up the smell as well as “perhaps “ reducing her consumption somewhat, at times, so her drunkenness is a bit less obvious; however most of the time she has completely failed in this regard, There’s no question in my mind that her stashes around the house would be calling out to her and tempting her to sneak a drink. I only wanted to remove the temptation and force her to REALLY think twice before she starts drinking again. She now has no choice but to consciously decide to continue to drink by going to the liquor store and picking up another bottle. I’ve found and disposed of all liquor in our home. 

Now that I’ve crossed a new bridge with her and openly talked with her about drinking, and what it’s doing to her, me, and our family and also because I’ve let her know I am prepared to leave if she chooses not to stop drinking I think it’s possible she might not make the choice to continue drinking. I don’t “think” she’s about to make a liquor store run anytime soon. All I wanted to accomplish was a removal of the strong temptation to sneak a drink. I understand that I broke one of the cardinal rules by doing so, but I’m still glad I did it nonetheless. She’s only on day 3 of her sobriety and I know just how fragile it is at the moment. 

I’m not sure what the relevance of her vocation is, but since the question has been raised a couple of times and I don’t see any harm in divulging that information I’ll tell you.

She’s an accountant/book keeper and works in a big office with just 2 other people who literally work a whole floor away from her. She could smell like a pig pen and it wouldn’t bother anyone.
She’s quite good at her job, makes about 75k a year plus, gets matching RRSP contributions and health benefits. She’d be just fine financially if we were to separate. and I probably wound be too; however neither of us would be able to afford to buy the other out in the event of divorce, so a change in residence would become necessary. 

As far as her hygiene goes, I think the smell of cigarette smoke overpowers any body odour issues, at least it’s all I ever notice anyways.

As far as my dads interference in our marriage goes. He helped my older brother remain in his marriage and things improved with their relationship once my brother quit using. Decades later he still attends meetings regularly and has sponsored dozens of other alcoholics and addicts.

My dad tried but failed to save my other brothers marriage, and now his second marriage has also just failed.

As far as I’m concerned, the words my dad said that stick out the most for me are “it’s nice to have someone to grow old with.” Perhaps not so much when you’re spouse is a raging alcoholic who is treating you with utter disdain and has been doing so for a very long period of time, but despite that, I still do have lots of positive memories, and I’m now seeing that my wife can still be civil with me if she’s chooses to, when she’s not drinking.

As far as hearing her side of the story goes, I’m sorry but I don’t think it would be a constructive thing at this time to bring her into this particular discussion. I suspect that would be more detrimental to both our relationship and her new found sobriety than it would be helpful.

If I missed covering anything, my apologies, I’m not intentionally ignoring any questions. Please just re ask me if there’s any burning ones you’d really like to still know the answer to.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

I hope you get more info on the situation you’re dealing with. 
Two days of good behavior on her part is not time to celebrate. 
You seem eager to believe change is easy… in this case it’s not.
You do you. Let her do what she needs to do.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

So she's able to hold down a job? From your first bit about printing something out, are you who she's working for? If you divorce, does she lose her employment? Doesn't seem like her drinking would enable her to get or keep another job. Or does she actually stay sober long enough to do a day's work for someone else? If so, I believe I'd bail on her. You'll always be connected through the kids. You'll probably get all you really want of her on those occasions as she continues to go downhill. It might even make her have to stay a little more sober to do it all on her own. You might be doing her a favor.


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## Defhero (Jan 5, 2022)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> Reflections and thoughts about my relationship of 38 years.
> 
> 
> I like feeling appreciated much more than feeling despised. Unfortunately I get a lot more of the latter in my relationship.
> ...


I am divorced twice and am in the best relationship of my life. Her name is rosey palm, lol, just kidding. I have been with my 3rd wife for a short 14/15 years now and we are darn near perfect for each other. I am not saying we are perfect, but we get each other. We live to impress each other and this is something that is not common. This means, I and her are always afraid that the other will leave or want someone else. For this, we keep ourselves desirable and maintained. I long for her to be satisfied and do not care for yself 1st to be satisfied, in which she does the same thing, so in the end we are always satisfied with each other. This also goes in the way of sex. 
For my past 2 relationships, I see definitely 1 out of the 2 (and the 1st one is even questionable) still having a really poor life. The situation with me, wasn't me, it was them and it shows. Hard not to gloat on this a little, when they make it seem like it is our fault in the relationship, until it is over. 
In my opinion, you are staying for all the wrong reasons. Kids are grown and now it's you 2 and you are living for her and she is living for herself. It's time to go your own ways and this might be the very thing that wakes her up. And if not, oh well, move on and live for yourself and for someone who does care for you....


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## Defhero (Jan 5, 2022)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> I mib


My brother is in this catagory - waiting for her to die, rather than leave and start over! Hard to watch, as age is not on his side!


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## Defhero (Jan 5, 2022)

discombobulatedwithspouse said:


> When asked years afterwards the majority of people are not any happier after divorcing. In my case I think the guilt I’d feel by leaving and knowing what that would do to my wife and family might feel just as crushing as putting up with her day to day. We’d also have to sell our 30 acres of heaven in the country which we’re both quite attached to, and we’d probably both end up living in tiny little apartments somewhere. Divorce would severely alter both our lives. It’s easy to say “just leave, leave now, what are you waiting for?” when you’re on outside observer, it’s another thing to be in this pickle and contemplating a new and very different life apart.
> 
> I don’t even know how divorce works exactly, don’t you have to be separated for a year first?


Divorce for me, specially my 2nd one was like the average. I wanted to jump, but I was afraid what was on the other side. I wanted the misery to stop, but I was afraid I couldn't afford it on my own! I don't want to break up the family value, but I didn't know there was no value, until I jumped. 
Sometimes the leap into the unknown, is better than the certainty of misery where you are! Look as it as, sink or swim. Most don't know that they can swim, until they jump into the water....


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Defhero said:


> I am divorced twice and am in the best relationship of my life. Her name is rosey palm, lol, just kidding. I have been with my 3rd wife for a short 14/15 years now and we are darn near perfect for each other. I am not saying we are perfect, but we get each other. We live to impress each other and this is something that is not common. This means, I and her are always afraid that the other will leave or want someone else. For this, we keep ourselves desirable and maintained. I long for her to be satisfied and do not care for yself 1st to be satisfied, in which she does the same thing, so in the end we are always satisfied with each other. This also goes in the way of sex.
> For my past 2 relationships, I see definitely 1 out of the 2 (and the 1st one is even questionable) still having a really poor life. The situation with me, wasn't me, it was them and it shows. Hard not to gloat on this a little, when they make it seem like it is our fault in the relationship, until it is over.
> In my opinion, you are staying for all the wrong reasons. Kids are grown and now it's you 2 and you are living for her and she is living for herself. It's time to go your own ways and this might be the very thing that wakes her up. And if not, oh well, move on and live for yourself and for someone who does care for you....


That must be horrible to live in fear that your spouse may leave you.


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