# Need opinions from married women.....



## captainkbt (Jan 9, 2013)

Maybe I have hinted or told several of you about my marriage during conversations. But I need some opinions now. Things are starting to spiral downward.

Married for 16 years, have two kids 12 and 14. Wife was pretty sexual/intimate back when we were dating and in our first year of marriage. After our first child was born she changed. I know that happens to some women after children, but it was like night and day. I have never been able to recover that and not really expecting to be 100% like it was when dating, but I did expect to get at least some of it back. Now, 14 years later intimacy is almost nonexistent unless I initiate. And when I do, its kind of a “lets get this over with” attitude. She’s 44 and is very open that she just doesn’t care for it. She doesn’t even want to kiss. I’m not interested in anything kinky and I don’t want intimacy every day. Its just once a week or so, I would like to spend some intimate time with my wife…..and I’m not talking about just sex. I mean I really want intimacy, there is a difference. I don’t think that’s asking too much.

I try to make her feel pretty and desired. I try to romance her and make her feel wanted and special. I try to find the things that she likes and do them either for her or with her. I try to listen to her when she just needs listening to. I cook for her and make her a plate at the table. I do some of her house cleaning chores when she is busy just to be nice. I send her an occasional sweet text message to try to brighten her day. I try to go on special little trips or dates to get away from the kids for awhile. And I am cognizant of not being overbearing or overdoing these things. I also give her the space she needs. I do all this and she is STILL not interested in being intimate with me and rarely does anything like this for me in return. Now, I know I shouldn’t do these things expecting anything in return, but it would be nice to know that someone loves and desires you the way you love and desire them. Yes, even we men want that. Sometimes it just hurts inside to know or feel that you are not desired intimately by your wife whom you love. 

I stay fit for her, I dress nice for her, I take care of my appearance the best I can for her. I figure if she’s not attracted intimately with me now, she surely won’t be if I am a fat slob.

I’ve tried talking to her. I’ve tried telling her how it makes me feel. I’ve requested going to counseling which she refuses to do. I think I will do that by myself. I’ve even told her before that eventually, I would start becoming interested in other women. She said the other day that this “is just how she is, and I’m not going to change her”. I know that’s true…….if this is truly how she is, I am not going to change her. I guess I just don’t know what else to do. I’m beginning to run out of options. I am now beginning to look at other women I know and wondering what an intimate life would be like with them. Would they appreciate the things I do? The work I put in for them? She says this is how all her girl friends feel about their husbands? Is this that common? I always thought men were the ones to take the wife for granted.

Thanks in advance…..


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## happysnappy (Jan 8, 2013)

Wow. I don't know what to tell you to do. How long are you willing to accept this? I think your only option is to either do a complete 180 on her or leave. It sounds like you are doing all the right things. I'm sorry


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

How many hours a week do the two of you spend doing things that you enjoy together, just the two of you?


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Good idea to go to counseling. Book an appointment for marriage counseling & invite her to go. If she refuses, go alone (I did).


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

By all means, see a counselor on your own. You have the right to a better life, and if she refuses to join you in improving the marriage to your satisfaction, she is risking that you will move on. You need to make it clear to her that a sexless marriage is unacceptable and if she does not desire you, she needs to let go so you can find someone who does.

You may find some advice here from the men helpful, too, although I don't agree with the assumptions they often make about women. But yes, it is not attractive when one adult goes overboard seeking favors from the other--and that may be part of the reason she is not as attracted to you. Learning to be somewhat independent of her may, if done right, draw her back toward you. Good luck.


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## Tango (Sep 30, 2012)

This is the male version of my story. Mind you I had some medical problems leading to chronic pain that played havoc with our life. Essentially, I quit asking my h for any kind if intimacy on a regular basis because I got tired of being told no. So,I went to the couch for the next however many years, going to him occasionally for scraps when I couldn't stand it anymore. Fast forward to about six months ago when I realized it had been more than a year since we had sex. I basically do,the same thing as you - everything to make the other happy. What I've noticed since I started to make an issue of our lack of intimacy, is when I stop doing all those ice things for him, he notices and wonders why I am not doing it anymore. I have a definite timeline in mind. He tells me that permanent BC is going to solve a lot of our "problem" so, if that doesn't make some significant changes happening my marriage, than I think it will be time to pull a 180 and start thinking about me only. 

You're not asking for very much. She has basically told you that the way things are is the way things are going to continue to be. She has forgotten that you and her used to have an intimate relationship. I would remind her of this and if she still won't participate in your marriage with you, tell her you want to be with someone who does want to.


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## Cogo123 (Jan 5, 2012)

Wow! I can tell you that you seem to be doing everything right. If my husband did half that I would be happy. You cannot make someone go to counseling. They have to want to make your relationship work. Does she tell you she loves you and if so can you feel it in her words? It is good you went to or are going to counseling. I did the same thing. The difficult part of that is unless she is willing to admit there's a problem then there is nothing to fix. I would move on if you cannot connect in all ways. Being there for one another is very important and wanting that intimacy should be something shared by both of you. Good luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

The opposite for me. I'm the wife and what I would give to have my husband treat me like you described above. We've been married 15 years. Can't give you any advise since nothing is working for me. There's a disconnect going on for her part. Finding out what caused the disconnect would help. I wish you luck!


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

captainkbt said:


> Maybe I have hinted or told several of you about my marriage during conversations. But I need some opinions now. Things are starting to spiral downward.


I know you want women's opinions, but here are some thoughts that may prove helpful if you have an open mind. Don't get upset and think I'm calling your wife's character in question, but approach it from the angle that human beings, while having free will, are still subject to instinctive, biological urges. Accept the idea that much of what women do sexually is a product of the limbic brain, not the cortex. 



captainkbt said:


> Married for 16 years, have two kids 12 and 14. Wife was pretty sexual/intimate back when we were dating and in our first year of marriage. After our first child was born she changed. I know that happens to some women after children, but it was like night and day.


We are all under a biological imperative to reproduce. Your wife achieved that goal, even though her pregnancy and successful delivery of her first child at the very late age of 32 (reproductively speaking, 14-25 are the optimum years), her need to copulate with you is reduced for that reason alone. this is reflected in a sharp decline in testosterone (which controls libido) after childbirth, which does not return to "normal" levels for three or four months. 

In the western world, until the last couple of centuries, a woman of 22 years of age would be expected to have already produced as many as a half dozen offspring. As women approach 30 (at which age about 13-18% of women are already infertile), their testosterone rises to its maximum, increasing sex drive to previously unimagined levels, in a last ditch bid to encourage further reproduction prior to menopause. Despite slightly lower testosterone levels, many women in their 40's in modern western society report an increase in libido and this has been hypothesized to be the result of the children of these women being old enough to care for themselves.

Unless your wife has reached menopause or has had a total hysterectomy, it would seem to be that her disinterest in sex runs counter to the biological imperative. Naturally, were all on a bell curve, so your mileage may vary.



captainkbt said:


> I have never been able to recover that and not really expecting to be 100% like it was when dating, but I did expect to get at least some of it back.


And you were right to expect that. As we have seen, testosterone, and by extension libido, should return a few months after pregnancy. So, _unless something is killing her attraction to you_, sex should have resumed, what with your wife being right at the age for peak libido.



captainkbt said:


> Now, 14 years later intimacy is almost nonexistent unless I initiate.


That's the way the Creator (or Darwin, if you prefer) intended it. You're the man, you've got the testosterone level that's 10X hers so you hit it when you get the urge. Your male presence should be enough to get her motor revved up, even though she had no idea she wanted it. I've heard this: "I didn't even know I needed it until you started running your hands all over my body," many, many times. It's just the natural order of things.

So, what causes a woman to initiate like she did early in the relationship? First, you've got to understand the biological reason for her horniness early on was to rope you in and produce a kid with her. Remember, this is limbic, not cortex. There was no cynical plotting involved (most of the time), she really was hot for you because she had an instinctive drive to reproduce and you were the beneficiary. 

Now, almost two decades in, the only reason she would have to want to initiate is if she feels like other women are after you. When your wife sees a woman giving you the eye, checking out your package or your butt, or putting her hands on you for some bogus reason, this usually will ignite a sexual jealousy response later or immediately. Women take their attraction cues from other women. Remember this: While most men are attracted to most women, most women are not attracted to most men. The Pareto Principle, as applied to reproduction, tell us that 80% of women are going to be attracted to 20% of the males. If you are one of those males, your wife should still be attracted to you, just based on all the attention she sees you getting from other women. 



captainkbt said:


> And when I do, its kind of a “lets get this over with” attitude. She’s 44 and is very open that she just doesn’t care for it.


If she's intact (still has her ovaries), is not menopausal, and is not anorexic, she is still interested in sex, even if that interest is temporarily dormant, waiting to be reawakened by "Prince Charming." She's interested in sex (barring the caveats above), just not with you.



captainkbt said:


> She doesn’t even want to kiss.


Stop right there. Assuming ovaries are functional, something is very, very wrong. You are either repelling her by your behavior and/or there is at least one sexual interloper in your marriage.



captainkbt said:


> I’m not interested in anything kinky and I don’t want intimacy every day. Its just once a week or so, I would like to spend some intimate time with my wife…..and I’m not talking about just sex. I mean I really want intimacy, there is a difference. I don’t think that’s asking too much.


You should be getting it several times a week, you know mother nature is telling you that. BUT, asking for it is a turnoff to a woman. Do you see skinny guys on the cover of romance novels down on one knee asking the heroine for sex? Afraid not, dude. Think about it. Asking for sex or whining about lack of same is a "demonstration of lower value." This is an attraction killer.



captainkbt said:


> I try to make her feel pretty and desired. I try to romance her and make her feel wanted and special.


These are things you do when you're dating, for the most part. You're already married so your approach is the wrong one. You're trying to trade this stuff for sex. Counterintuitively, these are Delta Male (see the _Male Socio-Sexual Hierarchy_) attraction killers.



captainkbt said:


> I try to find the things that she likes and do them either for her or with her. I try to listen to her when she just needs listening to. I cook for her and make her a plate at the table. I do some of her house cleaning chores when she is busy just to be nice. I send her an occasional sweet text message to try to brighten her day.


All of these are death to a sexual relationship with your wife because they are the things a woman does to show attachment to her man. You're inverting your relationship, so it's very clear that you are turning off. She wants a man, you want to be her maid. If you're going to text her, sext her. You've assiduously worked to friend zone yourself with your own wife. You're making yourself repellant to her age old limbic reproduction program.



captainkbt said:


> I try to go on special little trips or dates to get away from the kids for awhile. And I am cognizant of not being overbearing or overdoing these things.


It's not working, because it's the wrong approach.



captainkbt said:


> I also give her the space she needs. I do all this and she is STILL not interested in being intimate with me and rarely does anything like this for me in return.


The reason she needs space from you is that she is sexually repelled by your adoption of the female role. Quit cooking and cleaning and worrying about how to please her. That's what women do.



captainkbt said:


> Now, I know I shouldn’t do these things expecting anything in return, but it would be nice to know that someone loves and desires you the way you love and desire them. Yes, even we men want that. Sometimes it just hurts inside to know or feel that you are not desired intimately by your wife whom you love.


Well, you won't get laid by being her maid. The female limbic system responds negatively to that, as you have learned the hard way.



captainkbt said:


> I stay fit for her, I dress nice for her, I take care of my appearance the best I can for her. I figure if she’s not attracted intimately with me now, she surely won’t be if I am a fat slob.


This is good, if you do it right. Women are triggered by the natural proportions called "The Golden Ratio." If your waist measurement is A, your chest needs to be at minimum 1.4A and your shoulders need to be at minimum 1.6A. If you don't have that, you're not going to trigger her attraction, at least you're not going to do it physically. Again, this is bell curve stuff, so some women are out on the tails and YMMV, slightly. Nevertheless, the Golden Ratio is pretty much universal and cross cultural.



captainkbt said:


> I’ve tried talking to her. I’ve tried telling her how it makes me feel.


Despite what the propaganda says, women don't want a man who likes to discuss the relationship. Women want deeds, not words. No matter what they say. Men wheedling for sex and discussing the relationship are enormous attraction killers. Quit doing it. This is a major violation of The Sixteen Commandments as applied to a long term relationship.



captainkbt said:


> I’ve requested going to counseling which she refuses to do.


She's sexually repelled by your Delta Male actions, so the last thing she wants is to have some counselor tell her she needs to start having sex with you. Also, there is the risk the counselor may ask your wife where she's getting her sexual needs met. 



captainkbt said:


> I think I will do that by myself.


There is nothing wrong with you that you can't fix, once you realize that your low value male behaviors have you made you unattractive to her. Save the counseling money and buy a Harley (big Alpha/Sigma move).




captainkbt said:


> I’ve even told her before that eventually, I would start becoming interested in other women. She said the other day that *this “is just how she is, and I’m not going to change her”.*


She's getting her material needs met by you. She may be getting her sexual needs met by somebody else. If that's true and you haven't picked up on it, it's yet another huge attraction killer.

Does your wife work?

Does she ever go out with her friends



captainkbt said:


> I know that’s true…….if this is truly how she is, I am not going to change her. I guess I just don’t know what else to do. I’m beginning to run out of options.


Actually, you haven't even started working on the things that actually light a woman's fire.



captainkbt said:


> I am now beginning to look at other women I know and wondering what an intimate life would be like with them. Would they appreciate the things I do?


No.



captainkbt said:


> The work I put in for them?


Not really. Remember the Bell Curve and the Pareto Principle. This would be a good time to see what your Sexual Market Value really is. 



captainkbt said:


> She says this is how all her girl friends feel about their husbands?


I have no doubt that this is the case, as you should realize after reading all the stuff above and the links.



captainkbt said:


> Is this that common?


This is called the AMC, Average Married Chump.



captainkbt said:


> always thought men were the ones to take the wife for granted.
> .


Another "Big Lie." Sorry, but women don't work the way you've been told they do.

If you like, I can give you a list of things to do to fix this or you can cut to the chase and get this book on how to maintain sexual attraction over the life of a marriage. The guy also has an excellent blog.


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## Anomnom (Jun 25, 2012)

Sounds like she doesn't love you anymore and may just be staying for the kids. Does she ever tell you she loves you?


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I don't think she loves you anymore. I'm really sorry. If she knows you're unhappy and she's not willing to do anything to change that, then she can't love you. 

I'm not far off your wife's age (40). I adore my husband, and have for 20 years. We have sex several times a week, I like sex, but if I didn't I would work really hard to remedy that because I value my husband's happiness and our connection.

If she won't meet you half way, I don't think you have any option but to tell her you will be separating. Maybe that will shock her out of it, maybe not.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Another "Big Lie." Sorry, but women don't work the way you've been told they do.


:iagree:


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

captainkbt said:


> Maybe I have hinted or told several of you about my marriage during conversations. But I need some opinions now. Things are starting to spiral downward.
> 
> Married for 16 years, have two kids 12 and 14. Wife was pretty sexual/intimate back when we were dating and in our first year of marriage. After our first child was born she changed. I know that happens to some women after children, but it was like night and day. I have never been able to recover that and not really expecting to be 100% like it was when dating, but I did expect to get at least some of it back. Now, 14 years later intimacy is almost nonexistent unless I initiate. And when I do, its kind of a “lets get this over with” attitude. She’s 44 and is very open that she just doesn’t care for it. She doesn’t even want to kiss. I’m not interested in anything kinky and I don’t want intimacy every day. Its just once a week or so, I would like to spend some intimate time with my wife…..and I’m not talking about just sex. I mean I really want intimacy, there is a difference. I don’t think that’s asking too much.
> 
> ...


Hmm. I have been married for 13 years with pretty much the same scenario. Husband was hot for sex prior to marriage, not so much after marriage. Fortunately, our son had already been conceived - otherwise I probably would not have had any kids (there are two kids from his first marriage who live with us.) 

Trust me, it's not the way that all wives feel about their husbands - imo, it's not gender driven. I really enjoy sex, and I have talked every which way up and down to try to persuade my husband to have more sex, but he says that he "stays satisfied longer .." whatever the hell that means. He has lied about it for years anyway, so what he _says _isn't of any actual importance. We have sex maybe once a month, or twice if he is feeling really up for it.

It's up to you at this point, just as it was up to me a couple of years ago, when it was really, really getting me down. You can choose to divorce your wife, break up your family, and start over, or you can choose to compromise. What you shouldn't do - strictly imo of course - is cheat. That's strictly my belief of course, but I don't think that it gets anyone anywhere, and nor does nagging the LD partner for sex. All you get is resentment and anger, and you know, I can see why that would be. To her, this is her norm (just like it's the norm for my husband). I doubt you will change her, any more than I have been able to change my husband. 

I have chosen to persuade myself to become low drive. I have put the dampener on my sexual desire and chosen to respect my husband's lower drive. It's worth it for me because I want to stay married to him and keep our family together. We have two kids who already went through a divorce, when he split from his first wife - she went and had affairs, you see, she didn't put up with it, and it imploded their marriage - and we have our kid who hasn't experienced divorce, and there's no reason why he should. I choose to give them the combined family that they deserve to have, and not to open them up to all the disadvantages that come from a divided family - because there are many, many disadvantages. I have too much self respect to have affairs of any kind - emotional or physical - so, basically, it's tough, but it's doable. 

That's just my 2 cents, which you may reject, but I do feel for you. It's not what marriage is meant to be.


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## johonmirae (Jan 27, 2013)

It sounds like you are doing all the right things.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

There's quite a bit of truth in Machiavelli's post, though I can't say I personally believe it's a one-size-fits-all answer. 

A good friend who has been married to his wife for 26 years has confided several times in my husband and me about his similar problem. His wife will have duty sex with him if he initiates, and she is never resentful or avoidant. He says she gets off, but that she tells him she's just not much into it. He described it as saying that once they married and had their first child, it was like a switch went off in her brain that said, "Ok, I'm done." 

He loves her dearly, and they have a seemingly ideal life - terrific home on 10 acres, he owns a successful business, she is a subcontractor who actually makes better money than he does. She will always agree to come when we invite them to dinner and stuff, but she NEVER joins us for anything else, like fishing, camping, or playing cards. She strikes me as being unconcerned about anything other than her horses. He felt like you do and had a one-nighter with another person we know. 

I see them as a couple that opted for safety and comfort over excitement and passion. He's not able to see that his own behaviors might contribute because he's a bit needy when it comes to wanting attention, but I'm not sure that it would make any difference. 

I believe sometimes when this happens, it's because the sex just isn't that great. Whether that's because of a person's skill or their psychology... who knows? 

In your case, if you cannot get the attention you need from your wife, what would you want to see happen? My suggestion would be to try the 180 first, and if that didn't seem to have an effect, to either decide to end your marriage or invite her to let you find other relief. (Be aware, though, that such arrangements frequently backfire.)


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## captainkbt (Jan 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> How many hours a week do the two of you spend doing things that you enjoy together, just the two of you?


We usually have a day off work together during the week when kids are at school. I try to spend that day with her doing whatever she wants.


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## captainkbt (Jan 9, 2013)

Emerald said:


> Good idea to go to counseling. Book an appointment for marriage counseling & invite her to go. If she refuses, go alone (I did).


Thats probably what I am going to do....thanks.


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## captainkbt (Jan 9, 2013)

sisters359 said:


> By all means, see a counselor on your own. You have the right to a better life, and if she refuses to join you in improving the marriage to your satisfaction, she is risking that you will move on. You need to make it clear to her that a sexless marriage is unacceptable and if she does not desire you, she needs to let go so you can find someone who does..


I basically told her I would eventually cave and have an affair.
I was actually kinda shocked that came out of my mouth but I did say it. Its the truth.



sisters359 said:


> You may find some advice here from the men helpful, too, although I don't agree with the assumptions they often make about women. .


I mainly wanted to hear what women have to say since my wife seems to think this is just normal on her part. She says her girlfriends at work are all that way too and complain that their husbands want too much of this and that. Im not buying it.



sisters359 said:


> But yes, it is not attractive when one adult goes overboard seeking favors from the other--and that may be part of the reason she is not as attracted to you. Learning to be somewhat independent of her may, if done right, draw her back toward you. Good luck.


Oh no....like I said in my op, I am very aware when and what I do and dont want to appear gushing with favors. I learned a long time ago when to recognize her need to be left alone.


Thanks


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## captainkbt (Jan 9, 2013)

Cogo123 said:


> Wow! I can tell you that you seem to be doing everything right. If my husband did half that I would be happy. You cannot make someone go to counseling. They have to want to make your relationship work. Does she tell you she loves you and if so can you feel it in her words? It is good you went to or are going to counseling. I did the same thing. The difficult part of that is unless she is willing to admit there's a problem then there is nothing to fix. I would move on if you cannot connect in all ways. Being there for one another is very important and wanting that intimacy should be something shared by both of you. Good luck!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, she can be sweet and does tell me she loves me sometimes. But my sister does that too. I cant move on as much as I would sometimes like to. Even though I feel my love slip a little, I still love her. I still love being a family man. I would be much more unhappy being a "every other weekend"dad. I just cant do that....be without my kids.

Thanks.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

captainkbt said:


> We usually have a day off work together during the week when kids are at school. I try to spend that day with her doing whatever she wants.


Generally a couple needs to spend at least 15 hours a week doing things together when they focus on each other.. dates, conversations, cuddling, etc. If they don't get this the connection between them will fade. This is especially true for women who need non-sexual interaction and touch to maintain the feeling of being in love.

Take a look at the books linked to below for building a passionate marriage. The two books, "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Buster" will go a long way to answer your questions.


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## captainkbt (Jan 9, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> Stop right there. Assuming ovaries are functional, something is very, very wrong. You are either repelling her by your behavior and/or there is at least one sexual interloper in your marriage.


I highly doubt there is a EA in the picture. She is just not like that. I would have found out by now. She is not good at being secretive and she really doesnt try to be. I just dont see it.




Machiavelli said:


> You should be getting it several times a week, you know mother nature is telling you that. BUT, asking for it is a turnoff to a woman. Do you see skinny guys on the cover of romance novels down on one knee asking the heroine for sex? Afraid not, dude. Think about it. Asking for sex or whining about lack of same is a "demonstration of lower value." This is an attraction killer.


A) I dont "whine" about it. I suggest it and then proceed if I get a positive or semi-positive feedback. 

B) I dont think of myself as a "skinny guy".

C) I just try to be honest with my feelings with no BS games. 



Machiavelli said:


> All of these are death to a sexual relationship with your wife because they are the things a woman does to show attachment to her man. You're inverting your relationship, so it's very clear that you are turning off. She wants a man, you want to be her maid. If you're going to text her, sext her. You've assiduously worked to friend zone yourself with your own wife. You're making yourself repellant to her age old limbic reproduction program.
> 
> It's not working, because it's the wrong approach.


It seems some of the women responding here like what I am doing. I want to be in the "friend zone" with my wife in addition to being in an intimate zone. And I am NOT her maid. I think of our marriage as a partnership and if I have time I will do things that make her happy. I am not going to change that, and I will not appologize for it. That is what a spouse is supposed to do for their SO. "Sext her".....she would think I was out of my mind. Are you married, if so how long?




Machiavelli said:


> The reason she needs space from you is that she is sexually repelled by your adoption of the female role. Quit cooking and cleaning and worrying about how to please her. That's what women do.
> 
> Well, you won't get laid by being her maid. The female limbic system responds negatively to that, as you have learned the hard way.


Seems as though you dont know my wife either. If there is anything that does get her to gravitate in my direction is cooking for her. However, I dont always do it for her, I just like cooking.



Machiavelli said:


> There is nothing wrong with you that you can't fix, once you realize that your low value male behaviors have you made you unattractive to her. Save the counseling money and buy a Harley (big Alpha/Sigma move).


"Dude", quite reading in things or assuming things. Just because I like to cook for my wife and do some of her cleaning doesnt mean I am not an "alpha" male or do manly things. I am a firefighter for petes sake. I go in places where people are running out screaming. I DO have and ride a Harley softail custom. I have been riding for 10 years. I fix just about everything at home myself.



Machiavelli said:


> Does your wife work?
> 
> Does she ever go out with her friends



She works part time, and I do encourage her to go out with friends. She has started going out to the movies with her girl friends some.



Machiavelli said:


> Actually, you haven't even started working on the things that actually light a woman's fire.


Maybe you can list a few of those things?



Machiavelli said:


> If you like, I can give you a list of things to do to fix this or you can cut to the chase and get this book on how to maintain sexual attraction over the life of a marriage. The guy also has an excellent blog.


Thanks for your information and advice. I will take a look.


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## captainkbt (Jan 9, 2013)

Anomnom said:


> Sounds like she doesn't love you anymore and may just be staying for the kids. Does she ever tell you she loves you?


Yes.... she does...


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## captainkbt (Jan 9, 2013)

janefw said:


> Hmm. I have been married for 13 years with pretty much the same scenario. Husband was hot for sex prior to marriage, not so much after marriage. Fortunately, our son had already been conceived - otherwise I probably would not have had any kids (there are two kids from his first marriage who live with us.)
> 
> Trust me, it's not the way that all wives feel about their husbands - imo, it's not gender driven. I really enjoy sex, and I have talked every which way up and down to try to persuade my husband to have more sex, but he says that he "stays satisfied longer .." whatever the hell that means. He has lied about it for years anyway, so what he _says _isn't of any actual importance. We have sex maybe once a month, or twice if he is feeling really up for it.
> 
> ...


That just about mirrors my situation. But to clarify one point.....I am not seeking just "sex". That I can get if I really press for it. I am seeking intimacy. I think there is a difference between the two and Im probably sure thats what you are wanting also. I have told her we dont even have to have "sex" to be intimate. I just want to feel like there is a unique loving personal relationship between the two of us.....I dont feel it coming from her.


----------



## captainkbt (Jan 9, 2013)

johonmirae said:


> It sounds like you are doing all the right things.


Thank you....


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## captainkbt (Jan 9, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> A good friend who has been married to his wife for 26 years has confided several times in my husband and me about his similar problem. His wife will have duty sex with him if he initiates, and she is never resentful or avoidant. He says she gets off, but that she tells him she's just not much into it. He described it as saying that once they married and had their first child, it was like a switch went off in her brain that said, "Ok, I'm done."
> 
> He loves her dearly, and they have a seemingly ideal life - terrific home on 10 acres, he owns a successful business, she is a subcontractor who actually makes better money than he does. She will always agree to come when we invite them to dinner and stuff, but she NEVER joins us for anything else, like fishing, camping, or playing cards. She strikes me as being unconcerned about anything other than her horses. He felt like you do and had a one-nighter with another person we know.
> 
> ...


Thank you. That situation sound almost identical to mine. We have acreage property and all the neighbors have golf carts that we drive to each others homes to hang out and have a good time watching football or BBQing or BD parties. I have to prod her to go. She doesnt seem interested in that either.

As to the "quality" of sex? I have always believed that a woman will want to see you again if you make sure she enjoys the experience and make it more about her than you. So far, that theory has worked pretty well in my life....until now.

What would I want to see happen? In order of preference....

A) She sees how her approach is deteriorating our marriage and tries to make adjustments. Just to see her try would be all I need.

or...

B) I get some help from a counselor to adjust my feelings to accept things the way they are.

There are a few other things that might happen but I dont want it to happen.

Thanks for your response....


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## captainkbt (Jan 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Generally a couple needs to spend at least 15 hours a week doing things together when they focus on each other.. dates, conversations, cuddling, etc. If they don't get this the connection between them will fade. This is especially true for women who need non-sexual interaction and touch to maintain the feeling of being in love.
> 
> Take a look at the books linked to below for building a passionate marriage. The two books, "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Buster" will go a long way to answer your questions.


Logistically, we really just cant spend that kind of time even if we both wanted to. I work two jobs, one of which I am gone at 24 hour stretches and then we have kids in baseball, cheerleading and other school activities.

But I will definitely look into those books.....thank you.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Well, our friend seems to have adjusted. He recently got some sort of a vitamin supplement at GNC that he boasted about helping in this matter, but I'm not sure what it's called. He said it helps him have higher energy and libido, and that when he started using it, it surprised her and she seemed more receptive, but we haven't heard anything more since then and that was just a couple weeks after he started using it. Do you have any health food stores near you that you could call to inquire if they have a product like this? 

As far as your answers A) and B): 

A) Have you ever talked to her about the 5 Languages of Love or gotten familiar with it yourself? If you haven't, you might find some benefit from learning about it and letting her know what would help you feel most loved, but it sounds like she's not real receptive.

B) A counselor would help you come to see the other positives in your marriage and reframe your thinking to think of sex and intimacy as less important, or they'd get you acting more critical and bring problems into your relationship. In my opinion, you can decide to accept what you have without therapy, but if you do go this route, make it very clear to your counselor that you're wanting to change your perceptions and not her behavior. This can actually wreak havoc because counselors are just people... they have biases that would likely favor trying to rebuild intimacy. But if your wife won't go there, it can cause more problems.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

My personal experience is that the combination of three things might have an effect:

1) dialing down the things you do for her that meet her emotional needs until you match her lesser efforts in the relationship, 
2) using the new found time to become the best, happiest person you can be and become more attractive to not just her but people in general, and 
3) time for her to notice the change and have whatever it is click in her head that she has taken you for granted and might lose you.

Depends on how much effort you think is reasonable to put in to try to "fix" something you have little control over. She may never change.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

captainkbt said:


> Logistically, we really just cant spend that kind of time even if we both wanted to. I work two jobs, one of which I am gone at 24 hour stretches and then we have kids in baseball, cheerleading and other school activities.
> 
> But I will definitely look into those books.....thank you.


It will be difficult for your wife to develop the emotional connection she needs with you to feel sexual if you can't prioritize time with her in your life.


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## captainkbt (Jan 9, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> Well, our friend seems to have adjusted. He recently got some sort of a vitamin supplement at GNC that he boasted about helping in this matter, but I'm not sure what it's called. He said it helps him have higher energy and libido, and that when he started using it, it surprised her and she seemed more receptive, but we haven't heard anything more since then and that was just a couple weeks after he started using it. Do you have any health food stores near you that you could call to inquire if they have a product like this?


I dont think I have this problem. I probably need less "energy and libido".....not more.



KathyBatesel said:


> As far as your answers A) and B):
> 
> A) Have you ever talked to her about the 5 Languages of Love or gotten familiar with it yourself? If you haven't, you might find some benefit from learning about it and letting her know what would help you feel most loved, but it sounds like she's not real receptive.


No I havent spoken with her about "the 5 love languages" and I dont know anything about it. I will put that on my list for research.



KathyBatesel said:


> B) A counselor would help you come to see the other positives in your marriage and reframe your thinking to think of sex and intimacy as less important, or they'd get you acting more critical and bring problems into your relationship. In my opinion, you can decide to accept what you have without therapy, but if you do go this route, make it very clear to your counselor that you're wanting to change your perceptions and not her behavior. This can actually wreak havoc because counselors are just people... they have biases that would likely favor trying to rebuild intimacy. But if your wife won't go there, it can cause more problems.


Sounds reasonable. I definitely think seeing a marriage counselor by myself is a high priority.


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

captainkbt said:


> That just about mirrors my situation. But to clarify one point.....I am not seeking just "sex". That I can get if I really press for it. I am seeking intimacy. I think there is a difference between the two and Im probably sure thats what you are wanting also. I have told her we dont even have to have "sex" to be intimate. I just want to feel like there is a unique loving personal relationship between the two of us.....I dont feel it coming from her.


Yes, it is about intimacy, not just 'sex'. I can get 'sex' from a vibrator if I really want to, but I would like it to be with my husband, and for him to desire me. That lack of desire is the really painful thing about it.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

I guess the question is what is the difference between intimacy and sex.

If when you say "intimacy", you mean closeness without sex, part of the problem may be what she sees as your expectations, right or wrong, when it comes to intimacy. In her mind, she knows you two aren't having enough sex and ANY intimacy between you two may lead to you wanting sex.

Now maybe that isn't the case with you, but it was for me. My wife wanted the non-sexual intimacy but since there was no sexual releases for me, I eventually stopped the non-sexual intimacy all together.

Your wife assumes that the non-sexual intimacy that you desire will eventually lead, probably withing minutes, to a desire for sexual intimacy so rather than dealing with the sexual intimacy, she cuts you off with ALL intimacy.

If all of this makes sense, you have to how her that isn't the case. Come in for a quick hug or kiss, then back away. Show her that every time you touch her doesn't lead to sex. Cuddle without sexual expectations. if, like me, cuddling leads to an erection, adjust so there's less contact.

Eventually she will not associate intimacy (non-sexual) with sex.


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## captainkbt (Jan 9, 2013)

Acorn said:


> My personal experience is that the combination of three things might have an effect:
> 
> 1) dialing down the things you do for her that meet her emotional needs until you match her lesser efforts in the relationship,
> 2) using the new found time to become the best, happiest person you can be and become more attractive to not just her but people in general, and
> ...



I have already employed these tactics from my own research and I think they have saved my marriage and these are the exact things I have recomended for some in this forum. I think at one point she was going to be a WAW until I did some research and employed these tactics. 

I think she did come back to love and respect me more, but the intimacy has never rebounded. I guess thats just what getting me. Ive really fixed everything except that.....the last hurdle.


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## captainkbt (Jan 9, 2013)

janefw said:


> Yes, it is about intimacy, not just 'sex'. I can get 'sex' from a vibrator if I really want to, but I would like it to be with my husband, and for him to desire me. That lack of desire is the really painful thing about it.


Exactly....


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

captainkbt said:


> I have already employed these tactics from my own research and I think they have saved my marriage and these are the exact things I have recomended for some in this forum. I think at one point she was going to be a WAW until I did some research and employed these tactics.
> 
> I think she did come back to love and respect me more, but the intimacy has never rebounded. I guess thats just what getting me. Ive really fixed everything except that.....the last hurdle.


Hmmm... it's funny you put it this way, since when I read your post, the picture I saw was that your marriage currently consists of you bending over backward to romance her and express how much you desire her, and her doing nothing to show she desires you - except that she does just enough to keep you from becoming a WAH.


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## captainkbt (Jan 9, 2013)

Chris Taylor said:


> I guess the question is what is the difference between intimacy and sex.
> 
> If when you say "intimacy", you mean closeness without sex, part of the problem may be what she sees as your expectations, right or wrong, when it comes to intimacy. In her mind, she knows you two aren't having enough sex and ANY intimacy between you two may lead to you wanting sex.
> 
> Now maybe that isn't the case with you, but it was for me. My wife wanted the non-sexual intimacy but since there was no sexual releases for me, I eventually stopped the non-sexual intimacy all together.


Your wife assumes that the non-sexual intimacy that you desire will eventually lead, probably withing minutes, to a desire for sexual intimacy so rather than dealing with the sexual intimacy, she cuts you off with ALL intimacy.

If all of this makes sense, you have to how her that isn't the case. Come in for a quick hug or kiss, then back away. Show her that every time you touch her doesn't lead to sex. Cuddle without sexual expectations. if, like me, cuddling leads to an erection, adjust so there's less contact.

Eventually she will not associate intimacy (non-sexual) with sex.[/QUOTE]

Ive thought of that and even tried it, there seems to be no rhyme or reason to it though. When I try to back off and not let non-sexual intimacy lead to sex all I get is more non-sexual intimacy....nothing still. I cant wait forever for her to get it and start wanting sexual intimacy. But thats damn good advice.....

And your bikes looks exactly like mine. Harley softail?


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## ravioli (Jan 23, 2013)

The older women get the stronger a man has to get, and I don't mean physically. The house chores and kitchen duties has to stop. Women do not sleep with maids or butlers, they sleep with plumbers, pool boys, and landscapers. Men that do what society deems as masculine duties. You're trying to nice your way into sex. Baking cookies, dusting off furniture, and using Murphy's soap on the wood work won't work. You've got to get mean, and I don't mean yell and call names, or say hurtful things but you have to stop being Ray Romano and be more like, Pa from Lil House on the Prarie and James Gandolfini in the Sorpranos. Women respond to a more brazen, Masculine behavior. 

Everything you are doing is to please her. You have to do things that please you. Dress for yourself, go out when you want to. If she doesn't want to have sex, you have to make it known this type of behavior is uncalled for, or the marriage will end. Women respond to a strong man that means what he says and says what he means. No amount of counseling, or kitchen duties will get your wife to jump your bones if you don't turn this around starting with yourself.

I hope this wasn't too harsh. I've seen these situations all the time, and I know how women respond. More importantly you need a man's opinion. Asking women for opinions on this particular situation is like a parent asking another child, how should they discipline their child. It just doesn't work. A woman can give you some decent answers but it won't be concrete or hold more weight than what a man can give you.


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

I am wondering if she is early menopausal.

Can cause havoc with the hormones, health generally.

Good luck.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

captainkbt said:


> I highly doubt there is a EA in the picture. *She is just not like that.*


Yeah, everybody says that, but I never said anything about an EA. 



captainkbt said:


> *I would have found out by now.* She is not good at being secretive and she really doesnt try to be. I just dont see it.


So, what kind of investigation did you run? GPS, VAR, spyware on phone, keylogger on computer, PI? All of the above?



captainkbt said:


> A) I dont "whine" about it. I suggest it and then proceed if I get a positive or semi-positive feedback.


Sure, from your angle you're being rational about everything, but from her view you're trying to wheedle sex out of her. Sounds like whining in her ears, because she just don't wanna hear it.



captainkbt said:


> B) I dont think of myself as a "skinny guy".


Never said you were. I said they don't put skinny guys on the cover of romance novels for a reason. It's the same reason fat guys aren't on the cover.



captainkbt said:


> C) I just try to be honest with my feelings with no BS games.


How's that working out for you?

And nobody is advocating BS games.



captainkbt said:


> It seems some of the women responding here like what I am doing.


I thought you were trying to do something to appeal to your wife.



captainkbt said:


> I want to be in the *"friend zone"* with my wife in addition to being in an intimate zone.


Sorry, can't have it both ways. Guys in a woman's friend zone are those whose company she enjoys, but she doesn't see them in any way as potential sex partners. In fact, thinking about that possibility creeps her out.



captainkbt said:


> And I am NOT her maid.


Okay, you're NOT her maid, you're just the guy who does the laundry, vacuuming, dusting, scrubbing, and the cooking. NOT her maid.



captainkbt said:


> I think of our marriage as a partnership and if I have time I will do things that make her happy. I am not going to change that, and I will not appologize for it. That is what a spouse is supposed to do for their SO.


How's that working out for you?

If you aren't willing to try a new approach, you're saying your satisfied with the results you're getting under the present approach.



captainkbt said:


> "Sext her".....she would think I was out of my mind.


Sure, she would. She would never expect that from you.




captainkbt said:


> Are you married, if so how long?


Thirty this year.



captainkbt said:


> Seems as though you dont know my wife either.


Never said I did, which is why I pay attention to the Bell Curve aspect. All human traits and behaviors are distributed along a bell curve. Since I don't know your wife, I'm aiming at center of mass, but there is a leading edge and a long tail on that bell curve, which is why I say YMMV. That's why, when you're trying to get to the bottom of something, you do the legwork to positively rule out the most common probabilities first, even if you think it's unlikely to apply. Occam's Razor and all that.




captainkbt said:


> there is anything that does get her to gravitate in my direction is cooking for her.


So cooking for her gets her out of her panties? On the dinner table? Interesting.



captainkbt said:


> However, I dont always do it for her, I just like cooking.


If you like cooking, cook for you and not for her. As you withdraw your servitude, she may get a clue that there's trouble brewing.



captainkbt said:


> Machiavelli said:
> 
> 
> > _There is nothing wrong with you that you can't fix, once you realize that your low value male behaviors have you made you unattractive to her. Save the counseling money and buy a Harley (big Alpha/Sigma move)._
> ...


I'm not assuming anything, I'm just pointing out that the great bulk of the bell curve of women's attitudinal response to a maid-man is generally negative. YMMV, but if you're getting the same unacceptable response when you take the same action, it's time to try a new tack.




captainkbt said:


> Just because I like to cook for my wife and do some of her cleaning doesnt mean I am not an "alpha" male or do manly things. I am a firefighter for petes sake.


Being a fireman doesn't make you alpha any more than having four stars makes Gen. Petraeus, that poor delta male, an alpha. We're talking alpha as in how a man deals with women. 



captainkbt said:


> I go in places where people are running out screaming.


So? That doesn't make you alpha, in the sexual attraction sense, although it could be a _component_ of projecting an alpha/beta sexual persona.



captainkbt said:


> I DO have and ride a Harley softail custom. I have been riding for 10 years.


I was thinking more like a knucklehead chopper with a chick on the back in a tube top. Just kidding. Points for your hog. Does your wife ride behind you?



captainkbt said:


> She works part time, and I do encourage her to go out with friends. She has started going out to the movies with her girl friends some.


Single and divorced friends? No drinks?



captainkbt said:


> Maybe you can list a few of those things?


I doubt it will fix it, your wife is really checked out for whatever reason, but it will bring things to a head pretty fast, one way or the other.

1. Run a monitoring job for 30 days to make truly sure nobody else is on the radar. Everybody thinks their wife has no interest in sex until they find out otherwise. 

2. Start going out without warning. Roar off into the night, but on your way out say "I'm going out. Don't wait up." In the unlikely event she asks to go, give her 5 minutes to get her jeans and boots on. Then take her somewhere fun. Don't ask her opinion. You pick. If she doesn't want to go but wants to know where you're going, tell her you'll decide on the way, or you're weighing your options etc.

3. Change your haircut. Doesn't matter what.

4. When you're not working, start dressing at a higher level of sharpness than would normally make sense. Look for any excuse to wear a suit or a sport coat when you're not on two wheels.

Basically, start detaching and destabilizing the relationship, but only do that after you know for a fact that she's doing what she says she's doing with who she says she's doing it with. If you want results that differ from what you've been getting, you need to change your approach. 

Read the aforementioned MMSL and utilize his so-called MAP strategy. 

Good luck.


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## Anabel (Dec 21, 2012)

Sounds like you're an excellent husband to her. Maybe she's just gotten complacent, because you're so kind to her. She doesn't think she can lose you. Though I don't agree with everything he said, Machiavelli's last post had some good advice:



> 2. Start going out without warning. Roar off into the night, but on your way out say "I'm going out. Don't wait up." In the unlikely event she asks to go, give her 5 minutes to get her jeans and boots on. Then take her somewhere fun. Don't ask her opinion. You pick. If she doesn't want to go but wants to know where you're going, tell her you'll decide on the way, or you're weighing your options etc.
> 
> 3. Change your haircut. Doesn't matter what.
> 
> 4. When you're not working, start dressing at a higher level of sharpness than would normally make sense.


You may not have to separate or leave. Giving her the impression you're moving on by ceasing to do the special things just for her, developing genuine interests that keep you spending free time outside the house -- this may start to wake her up. The trick is shutting her off while keeping your family life as peaceful and undisturbed as possible. From what you've described, I wouldn't say it's anything you've done wrong; sounds like she just dropped the ball.


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## BarelyThere (Dec 31, 2012)

I agree with Machiavelli and ravioli.

I could be your wife. You know what I hate? That he won't man up. I'm about to leave him. I don't want help with the housework or cooking. I don't want nice and friendly. I want him to burst through the door and ravage me. When I get *****y, I want him to say, "Knock it off!" instead of rolling over and giving me my way.

We don't really want nice guys. We want strong guys. We want guys who will protect us at all cost. We want guys who are secure in who they are and confident in getting what they want...including us.

Well, at least I do. And I bet your wife does, too.


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## captainkbt (Jan 9, 2013)

ravioli said:


> The older women get the stronger a man has to get, and I don't mean physically. The house chores and kitchen duties has to stop. Women do not sleep with maids or butlers, they sleep with plumbers, pool boys, and landscapers. Men that do what society deems as masculine duties. You're trying to nice your way into sex. Baking cookies, dusting off furniture, and using Murphy's soap on the wood work won't work. You've got to get mean, and I don't mean yell and call names, or say hurtful things but you have to stop being Ray Romano and be more like, Pa from Lil House on the Prarie and James Gandolfini in the Sorpranos. Women respond to a more brazen, Masculine behavior.
> 
> Everything you are doing is to please her. You have to do things that please you. Dress for yourself, go out when you want to. If she doesn't want to have sex, you have to make it known this type of behavior is uncalled for, or the marriage will end. Women respond to a strong man that means what he says and says what he means. No amount of counseling, or kitchen duties will get your wife to jump your bones if you don't turn this around starting with yourself.
> 
> I hope this wasn't too harsh. I've seen these situations all the time, and I know how women respond. More importantly you need a man's opinion. Asking women for opinions on this particular situation is like a parent asking another child, how should they discipline their child. It just doesn't work. A woman can give you some decent answers but it won't be concrete or hold more weight than what a man can give you.


You are obivously a man and this is exactly why I wanted womens opinions....because...

A) Men are poor at listening. You only heard what you wanted to hear. I dont do all those "house chores" you describe. I said I do an occasional chore when she is busy just to be nice and there isnt a damn thing wrong with that. Its called being nice and I will not offer any appologies for it. And you missed the part about me doing all the repairs around the house and autos and being a firefighter and riding a Harley....not a "maid or butler". I also hunt, shoot, fish, scuba dive, and coach baseball. Is that enough "masculine behavior" for you. If you actually knew me you would laugh at your own comments.

B) Since this behavior is coming from my wife.....a woman, and she says many of her friends also feel this way about their husbands, I think it very appropriate that I get a married womans perspective on it.

C) No, didnt take it as "harsh", just a bit offbase. There many assuming things in your comments which you shouldnt do when offering advice to others.


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## captainkbt (Jan 9, 2013)

BarelyThere said:


> I agree with Machiavelli and ravioli.
> 
> I could be your wife. You know what I hate? That he won't man up. I'm about to leave him. I don't want help with the housework or cooking. I don't want nice and friendly. I want him to burst through the door and ravage me. When I get *****y, I want him to say, "Knock it off!" instead of rolling over and giving me my way.
> 
> ...


Trust me....I AM the backbone, the enforcer, and the strength in our house. But no....she wouldnt like that at all. 

You guys .....QUIT reading things into peoples comments and assuming.


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## captainkbt (Jan 9, 2013)

Anabel said:


> Sounds like you're an excellent husband to her. Maybe she's just gotten complacent, because you're so kind to her. She doesn't think she can lose you. Though I don't agree with everything he said, Machiavelli's last post had some good advice:
> 
> 
> 
> You may not have to separate or leave. Giving her the impression you're moving on by ceasing to do the special things just for her, developing genuine interests that keep you spending free time outside the house -- this may start to wake her up. The trick is shutting her off while keeping your family life as peaceful and undisturbed as possible. From what you've described, I wouldn't say it's anything you've done wrong; sounds like she just dropped the ball.


No....these guy posts (except for Chris Taylor's) are EXACTLY why I didnt want their reponses. All this macho BS insinuating Im not macho or a "strong man" because I said I do an occasional house chore for her or because I am nice to her and respect her. Thats just silly. I live in the damn house too. If something is dirty, and she is busy, I clean it up....good grief that doenst make me a girly man for petes sake. And nothing I have said means I dont have a backbone and havent been strong and stood up for myself and been assertive of how I feel instead of being a doormat.....thats just assuming things. I have been the anti-doormat husband. I have dressed up, put on the cologne, and walked out of the house on Saturday night plenty of times.....and told her it was none of her business where I was going. I have even told her I was going to get a girlfriend if she didnt change. But that was all just games because I really wasnt going to "get a girlfriend". And Im tired and past all that.

I just want to maturely identify the problem, fix it if I can, or learn how to live with it better if I can. I dont need to know about damn "bell curves" or need to "get mean". 

Its interesting the men seem to assume things and blame me......the women blame her.


----------



## Anabel (Dec 21, 2012)

captainkbt said:


> No....these guy posts (except for Chris Taylor's) are EXACTLY why I didnt want their reponses. All this macho BS insinuating Im not macho or a "strong man" because I said I do an occasional house chore for her or because I am nice to her and respect her. Thats just silly. I live in the damn house too. If something is dirty, and she is busy, I clean it up....good grief that doenst make me a girly man for petes sake. And nothing I have said means I dont have a backbone and havent been strong and stood up for myself and been assertive of how I feel instead of being a doormat.....thats just assuming things. I have been the anti-doormat husband. I have dressed up, put on the cologne, and walked out of the house on Saturday night plenty of times.....and told her it was none of her business where I was going. I have even told her I was going to get a girlfriend if she didnt change. But that was all just games because I really wasnt going to "get a girlfriend". And Im tired and past all that.
> 
> I just want to maturely identify the problem, fix it if I can, or learn how to live with it better if I can. I dont need to know about damn "bell curves" or need to "get mean".
> 
> Its interesting the men seem to assume things and blame me......the women blame her.


To clarify: I don't think that helping around the house somehow makes you less of a man or less attractive to your wife. Most women--all the women I know in fact--would be turned _off_ by a man who refused to do these things.

What I was trying to get across is that, from what you wrote, I gather you are a _good_ man (which only has connotations of strength in my mind) to your wife. She may therefore assume you won't leave her, because you would never want to hurt or lose your kids. The only advice I can think of goes along with trying to get her attention and get her to recognize how far she is pushing you.. This happens to coincide with Machiavelli's advice. Not for the same reasons though.

In any case, your original question was, is this normal? I haven't been married as long as you and your wife, but no, from what you've said, I don't think it's normal or fair for a wife to withhold affection and expect you to accept the kind of excuses she's making. I very strongly doubt that she truly believes it's okay or that you should accept it either, no matter what she tells you. I think she may just need a reminder of what it's like to be alone, so she can compare that with being with you, and realize she needs to step up and do her part.
Good luck.


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## BarelyThere (Dec 31, 2012)

captainkbt said:


> Trust me....I AM the backbone, the enforcer, and the strength in our house. But no....she wouldnt like that at all.
> 
> You guys .....QUIT reading things into peoples comments and assuming.


I'm sorry my opinion as a married woman wasn't what you wanted to hear. It seems as though you're refuting most of what you're getting here. My take is that either most aren't understanding what you're asking or you're expecting different responses.

I just reread your OP. Put another way, my opinion would be, based on all the "I try" in your post, you should stop trying so hard.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Married woman here....my opinion is that you should separate from her.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

captainkbt said:


> But that was all just games because I really wasnt going to "get a girlfriend".


For all the stuff you don't want to read from other people, read what you wrote.

Then consider that your wife knows you probably better than you know yourself, and she knows this too.

No wonder all that game playing was silly. It wasn't fooling anyone.

Your move.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Acorn said:


> For all the stuff you don't want to read from other people, read what you wrote.
> 
> Then consider that your wife knows you probably better than you know yourself, and she knows this too.
> 
> ...


More like "Checkmate."


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## captainkbt (Jan 9, 2013)

Acorn said:


> For all the stuff you don't want to read from other people, read what you wrote.
> 
> Then consider that your wife knows you probably better than you know yourself, and she knows this too.
> 
> ...


I believe my move is to seek counseling in an attempt to learn new MATURE ways to realistically deal with her distance from intimacy.

Thanks to all for the responses......


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

captainkbt said:


> I believe my move is to seek counseling in an attempt to learn new MATURE ways to realistically deal with her distance from intimacy.


Just remember that the path to the female limbic sexual response is not through her prefrontal cortex. They are only connected by the Great Female Rationalization Hamster.


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## Repenting (Jan 7, 2013)

captainkbt said:


> No....these guy posts (except for Chris Taylor's) are EXACTLY why I didnt want their reponses. All this macho BS insinuating Im not macho or a "strong man" because I said I do an occasional house chore for her or because I am nice to her and respect her. Thats just silly.


Machiavelli has this hammer called "alpha moves." It's an excellent hammer. It often works in unexpected ways and can drive home nails that were previously thought undriveable. 

It's such an excellent hammer and has been so useful to him for so long that everything is starting to look like a nail.

It's possible that changing the tone somewhat at home will "wake her up a bit," but it's just as likely that she is extremely low drive and will never change. In that case you will have to make the difficult decision between leaving your kids or putting up with duty sex only for another 6 years or so. Tough choice that only you can make.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

captainkbt said:


> I believe my move is to seek counseling in an attempt to learn new MATURE ways to realistically deal with her distance from intimacy.
> 
> Thanks to all for the responses......


Ok,
_Proceed_.......


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