# Five years later.



## huanito

Hello All

Below are two posts that I did years ago about my situation. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/27766-relationship-advice-needed.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/61841-what-if.html#post1243460

It has been almost 5 years since D day and the wife and I have managed to keep things together and she has been a supportive and loving wife. We had a third child which is now 2 years old. The first couple of years was tough on us especially for me as that "what if" on my second post was always on the back of my mind and since I could not reasonably believe that there was no PA especially with all the circumstantial evidence involved.

Things were getting better and I was forgetting what happened and we were both happy until a couple of month ago my wife started having anxiety problems and panic attacks and during those episodes she asked me for forgiveness of what she has put me through and ultimately admitted to PA. Her guilty conscious was eating her up.

This kind of turned my world upside down again and brought back all the memories of betrayal, anger and although in the past I told myself in order to stop myself from thinking about it too much that even if there was a PA that I would give her another chance. Now that I know for certain it is making it harder.

I told her I forgave her and since she is already having mental breakdowns I did not want to make things worse on her and just told her to forget everything and all is in the past but it is really eating me up inside.

So bottom line is she is a good mother and is now a good wife, I have no complains from her cheating again or even suspicious of her cheating on me again but inside I am miserable and don't know what to do. On the outside we are a happy family but on the inside I'm just miserable and just need some advice on how to get over it.


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## Marduk

She's still trickle truthing you five years later?

Man -- there's no good way out of this one. Deal breaker for me, because it would make the last five years of my work all a false reconciliation.

I'd be done.


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## Hope1964

That is horrible. I am so sorry.

What she has done is put you right back where you started. Everything starts all over again. This is D day #2 (or whatever) and it all starts right from square ONE.

Are you guys in MC? Were you? If not, start.

You need to tell her what she has done to you. She needs to feel your pain. We're 6 years out and if I got something like this at this point I don't know if I'd stay, because it really does put you right back at the beginning, and I don't want to go through everything again.


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## Acoa

huanito said:


> It has been almost 5 years since D day and the wife and I have managed to keep things together and she has been a supportive and loving wife. We had a third child which is now 2 years old. The first couple of years was tough on us especially for me as that "what if" on my second post was always on the back of my mind and since I could not reasonably believe that there was no PA especially with all the circumstantial evidence involved.
> 
> Things were getting better and I was forgetting what happened and we were both happy until a couple of month ago my wife started having anxiety problems and panic attacks and during those episodes she asked me for forgiveness of what she has put me through and ultimately admitted to PA. Her guilty conscious was eating her up.
> 
> This kind of turned my world upside down again and brought back all the memories of betrayal, anger and although in the past I told myself in order to stop myself from thinking about it too much that even if there was a PA that I would give her another chance. Now that I know for certain it is making it harder.
> 
> I told her I forgave her and since she is already having mental breakdowns I did not want to make things worse on her and just told her to forget everything and all is in the past but it is really eating me up inside.
> 
> So bottom line is she is a good mother and is now a good wife, I have no complains from her cheating again or even suspicious of her cheating on me again but inside I am miserable and don't know what to do. On the outside we are a happy family but on the inside I'm just miserable and just need some advice on how to get over it.


So, is she a good wife?
- Does she agree to never go to Canada to visit family unless you travel together as a couple?
- Is she done trickle truthing you?
- Is she willing to tell everyone in the family the extent of her betrayal and never see this relative/friend again?

If the answer to any of those is no, then she doesn't pass the first bar to be in the running for good wife.

What is OM relation to you?

What boundaries are in place now that you feel secure she hasn't cheated since this event 5 years ago?


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## MarriedDude

huanito said:


> Hello All
> 
> Below are two posts that I did years ago about my situation.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/27766-relationship-advice-needed.html
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/61841-what-if.html#post1243460
> 
> It has been almost 5 years since D day and the wife and I have managed to keep things together and she has been a supportive and loving wife. We had a third child which is now 2 years old. The first couple of years was tough on us especially for me as that "what if" on my second post was always on the back of my mind and since I could not reasonably believe that there was no PA especially with all the circumstantial evidence involved.
> 
> Things were getting better and I was forgetting what happened and we were both happy until a couple of month ago *my wife started having anxiety problems and panic attacks and during those episodes she asked me for forgiveness of what she has put me through and ultimately admitted to PA. Her guilty conscious was eating her up.
> *
> This kind of turned my world upside down again and brought back all the memories of betrayal, anger and although in the past I told myself in order to stop myself from thinking about it too much that even if there was a PA that I would give her another chance. Now that I know for certain it is making it harder.
> 
> *I told her I forgave her and since she is already having mental breakdowns I did not want to make things worse on her and just told her to forget everything and all is in the past but it is really eating me up inside.
> *
> So bottom line is she is a good mother and is now a good wife, I have no complains from her cheating again or even suspicious of her cheating on me again but inside I am miserable and don't know what to do. On the outside we are a happy family but on the inside I'm just miserable and just need some advice on how to get over it.


What happened to your wife in terms of having the betrayal eating her up inside....Think of this as a preview of coming events for you. 

Not dealing with it serves only to kick the problem farther down the road. 

If you can't deal with it now....i highly doubt you will ever be able to. 

What do you want? Really Want?


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## convert

Yes this is DDay all over again, DO NOT RUG SWEEP THIS.

It essentially resets the clock on recovery (2 to5 years)

This is why TT (trickle truth) is soul crushing


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## ConanHub

Rug sweeping and gas lighting for years didn't help now did it?

You are ready to do it again.

If you aren't insane you will try something different this time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985

@huanito I am sorry that this happened. 

Please think about this and try to provide your best thoughts: If you knew 5 years ago that your wife did have a PA, would you have done anything different concerning reconciliation? Would knowing about the PA then lead firmly to divorce?

You say that you could not reasonably believe that there was no PA especially with all the circumstantial evidence involved, so part of you already knew about the PA, you just did not have your wife's explicit admission.


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## ConanHub

Better treat this like a real DDay and stop pretending.

You have not been reconciled. She has been lying her defiled butt off for five years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk

I also doubt that it's only the PA that's triggering her anxiety -- five years later.


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## G.J.

She needs to tell you everything..thats *everything* before you can even begin to get your head around it

If she doesn't the same thing may happen again

You need to tell her because of her stupid action of not telling you everything it has now caused another major 
decision or what ever word you want to use to her

Get her to draw out a time line of what happened and when to the best of her knowledge

You may want to rug sweep it..that's your call


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## JohnA

Agree with @Mardux at least to the extent you need to verify if anything else is going on. From your past posts it seems you went postal but never physical. I strongly urge you to go cold/gentle and verify this time. I have not read your other posts could you supply additional content as to what issues she has from FOO (if any) ?


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## Lostinthought61

did she tell you everything of the PA...how many times they met and where and write it down ?


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## Yeswecan

marduk said:


> She's still trickle truthing you five years later?
> 
> Man -- there's no good way out of this one. Deal breaker for me, because it would make the last five years of my work all a false reconciliation.
> 
> I'd be done.


^^^^^dead on.


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## MattMatt

You knew, in your own heart, that it was a PA.

Now she has confirmed it.

I would suggest looking at counselling IC and couple's counselling.


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## happyman64

Huanito

You have the truth. Congrats. Your wife's conscious has finally returned in full.

Sure you are upset. Who wouldn't be after that length of time.

Now do yourself a favor.

Sit your wife down after the kids are asleep.

Explain to her how you feel about her, the physical affair now that she confirmed what you always knew.

Ask her for her help. Make her an active participant in your healing.

After all, you stuck around this long. Be glad you got her confession.

Now both of you figure out how to make this marriage work.

HM


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## Evinrude58

I would have to disagree with some others, even though I may be totally wrong and I know it.

I would have liked to have had a chance to keep my family intact. If my ex had stopped all the horrible behavior, and asked forgiveness, I would have reconciled. You had that opportunity. I think your wife may truly be remorseful---she has, after all, stopped the bad behavior for 5 years.

I know it hurts, but you knew it to begin with. She just didn't tell you.

If she has been a good wife for 5 years, you shouldn't jump on her for asking forgiveness and telling you the truth. If it is too much for you to handle, I do believe you shouldn't feel guilty for divorcing, however.
There are consequences to her actions. Some that are beyond your control. You can't help how this infidelity has made you feel. That's on her.

What is the reason for the panic attacks and such? What's triggering them? Is it the guilt?
If so, we all know who's fault that is. 
Good luck, whatever you choose.


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## bandit.45

1) Postnuptial agreement. Legal, notarized and recorded.... 

2) Marriage counseling. 

3) Intensive individual counseling for her....soi she can understand what drove her to become a lying, gaslighting cheater. 

4) Reimbursement from her to you for every penny of your shared income that she spent on her affair. 

5) No friendships with any men other than you or the men in her family. That's it.


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## sixbravebulls

@huanito - man, that sucks. I'm sorry for you. I know the feeling of wondering and "what if." I've been living it for 2 years. I fear one day to get the "confirmation" of a PA just like you got. All I can say is, man to man, it's best to suck it up and stay with your kids. If she is a nice person (other than the PA) and a good mother I wouldn't risk leaving my kids. That's my personal advice. Others will tell you to serve papers and I understand that as well.


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## bandit.45

At the very least, she should live her life like a nun for the next five years.


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## sparrow555

How come no one pointed this out ?




> I told her I forgave her and since she is already having mental breakdowns I did not want to make things worse on her and just told her to forget everything and all is in the past but it is really eating me up inside.



Your wife constantly strives to be the perpetual bigger victim and you keep enabling it. She lied to you, humiliated you, cheated on you with your relative and then you forgave her because she is having mental breakdowns. You did not want to make things worse her her ? Before she manipulated you by counter attacking and calling you jealous. Now she is manipulating you through her tears. 

I think it is more than likely that there is more to her story with this guy and there is something that happened in the last few months to make her confess to you. I wouldn't be surprised if she kept cheating long after you two got back together and she she was forced to confess. 

Tell her that you are going to make her take a lie detector test and see her spill out many more details. Or you can make a post in 2020 about how you found out that there was more to her affair than she confessed back in 2016.


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## TAMAT

Huanito,

Bummer but at least you got a more complete truth. I would....at a minimum.....

1) Polygraph, after having your WW write out everything that happened in a note book organized as a timeline. Tell her no matter how ugly the truth is it is better than the nicest lie.

2) The OM needs to be widely exposed, his wife/gf, parents, grandparent, siblings, work, linkedin, facebook etc etc.

As some seem to be indicating there is a good chance the reason your WWs conscience went off is she is still in contact with the OM, or WW may have realized she is still in love with him or fantasies about him.

Tamat


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## Happilymarried25

happyman64 said:


> Huanito
> 
> You have the truth. Congrats. Your wife's conscious has finally returned in full.
> 
> Sure you are upset. Who wouldn't be after that length of time.
> 
> Now do yourself a favor.
> 
> Sit your wife down after the kids are asleep.
> 
> Explain to her how you feel about her, the physical affair now that she confirmed what you always knew.
> 
> Ask her for her help. Make her an active participant in your healing.
> 
> After all, you stuck around this long. Be glad you got her confession.
> 
> Now both of you figure out how to make this marriage work.
> 
> HM


I agree, you need to stay in the marriage. You brought another child into the world knowing your wife had and EA and probably a PA and you stayed with her and your baby shouldn't have to grow up in a broken family because you can't forgive your wife. You have to try and forgive her and think about how great the last five years have been with her. Don't live your life in the past. Sometimes I think some things are better left a secret.


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## sparrow555

> I know for a fact that she would never admit to this because I know that she knows if she ever admits to it that would end our relationship and everyone in this universe would also know about it.


This was you 3-4 years ago. 

In today's post



> I told myself in order to stop myself from thinking about it too much that even if there was a PA that I would give her another chance


Guess who got emasculated bit by bit and day by day ?

Some bits I keep reading from your old post



> Where in the end she would say I didn do it but it seems you wont rest untill I tell you I did


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## Hope1964

sparrow555 said:


> emasculated


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## ConanHub

The reasons you need to start all over are numerous. Not the least of which is the health of your WW.

If this had been dealt with at the start, she would not have been living a lie for 5 years and further destroying trust and intimacy.

Bury this again and see what happens. You need to fully address the issues now. Both yours and hers.

Fvcking OM and lying about it for 5 years is not reconciliation.

Telling her to forget it is terrible and weak behavior.

You both need to finally face her moldy, 5 year old trash and sort through it or a few more years will just see more festering.

Stop ignoring the damn wound she inflicted and treat it.

I'll repeat it so you get it.

Lying about fvcking OM for 5 years is NOT RECONCILIATION!

Hope you get healthy as individuals before trying to repair an unhealthy marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThePheonix

huanito said:


> but on the inside I'm just miserable and just need some advice on how to get over it.


When she broke down and told you she slept with this other guy, did she really tell you anything you didn't already know? You knew the possibilities and decided to hang in there. You're being haunted now because of your decision to cut the inquiry and let it go. 
A much larger concern than her shenanigan five years ago is why she's telling you this now. My take is its more than past guilt. It may be current temptation she's guilty about. Has these two past love birds been in contact with each other?


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## Marduk

ThePheonix said:


> When she broke down and told you she slept with this other guy, did she really tell you anything you didn't already know? You knew the possibilities and decided to hang in there. You're being haunted now because of your decision to cut the inquiry and let it go.
> A much larger concern than her shenanigan five years ago is why she's telling you this now. My take is its more than past guilt. It may be current temptation she's guilty about. Has these two past love birds been in contact with each other?


Ya. After five years and getting away with it scott free she twists the knife five years later?

Doesn't add up. Unless something has changed recently.

What is that?


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## *Deidre*

marduk said:


> She's still trickle truthing you five years later?
> 
> Man -- there's no good way out of this one. Deal breaker for me, because it would make the last five years of my work all a false reconciliation.
> 
> I'd be done.


This.

And I also find it 'interesting' and 'convenient', how much I'm reading on here in other threads about all these anxiety attacks and such right around the time when these WS's are expected to step up and be truthful.  Some are probably real, but some sound like it's manipulative and excuses them from having to step up and be responsible. 

OP, you're miserable because you're in an unhealthy relationship. Honestly. I hope you take care of yourself, because staying miserable will affect your health, if it hasn't already.


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## Chaparral

How do you know when the affair really ended?


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## Chaparral

I'm wondering if someone has been threatening her that they were going to tell you. This seems much more likely.


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## ConanHub

Chaparral said:


> I'm wondering if someone has been threatening her that they were going to tell you. This seems much more likely.


Could be. Some people really do start getting eaten alive when they start falling back in love with their spouse.

I've seen it more than once and experienced it myself though what I confessed to wasn't infidelity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LosingHim

I did this to my husband. Lied for 3 years. I wish he would post here to help you. 

Maybe you really need some time apart to fully process this.

She NEEDS to understand that by lying to you for 5 years that she's reset the clock, ripped open an old wound and that anything that happened over the last 5 years in the name of reconciliation is null and void.

You let her rug sweep it. My husband did the same by never grabbing his nuts and giving me consequences. A remorseless cheater will only give you enough to keep you happy. I am qualified to say this because I did it. I lived life as a delusional c*nt for 3 years thinking I "got away with it". I was "saving his feelings". It really wasn't "that bad" because I stopped. 

ONLY when he grabbed his nuts and told me he wanted a divorce is when I finally "saw the light". I hate to say that, but it's true. I falsely reconciled with my husband for 3 years and let him believe my lies. He accepted my lies and never gave me consequences. And it turned our marriage into a toxic mess. Were both at fault. Me, moreso, him for starting/continuing an EA to soothe himself. 

Were 17 days into reconciliation after DDay #2. And there's not a thing I haven't come clean about. I've said some of the hardest things I've ever had to say. And I feel so dirty having to have said them. But my husband needed to know the depths of my deception before he could ever even have an inkling of moving forward with me. I had to know the same from him. 

Anxiety be damned - your wife needs consequences, or you're setting yourself up for a lifetime of misery.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## huanito

Thank you all for your input. Everyone of you made good arguments and asked some good questions so I would like to answer as much as I can on this post to narrow down my exact situation as best as I can. note that some of the information below are my gut instinct and so far it hasn't been proven wrong. 

First of all I would like to point out that the chances for both of us staying together would have been very minimal at best if there were no kids involved so you guys can see how much our kids played a role in us trying to work things out and now to make matter worse there is even a third child involved. 

She hasn't revealed in details what happened between them and I'm not sure I want to know. A part of me want to know everything that happened between them to once and for all put everything to rest and a part of me wish she didn't tell me anything and kept quite since within the last year I finally started feeling better about it. I may not be ready to hear any details which could make the process of recuperating from this much more difficult. My heart paces just thinking about it. 

I would like to take you guys back through my journey and how we ended up here to give more clarity on my mental process right now.

As I mentioned on my previous posts that prior to the EA/FA I was a workaholic and also went to school full time and she was a stay at home mom and we may not see each other until the end of the day, she felt very neglected and she voiced those concerns to me over and over again but I was too determined that I was not in the wrong and that ultimately I was just working my butt off for the future of the family (which we currently enjoy). She has admitted before that she started contacting him a year prior to me catching them sexting.

The OM was a relative and a good friend of mine. He even helped fix my car for free when I was over there (and they have been secretly contacting each other) 

When I caught them she was two faced for a couple of month. She said she wanted to be with me and not him but She still texted him behind my back at one point and a couple of month later after bringing them from a vacation and while I was at work she talked to him on the phone for over an hour which by then that I was so furious that we split up but not long after we got back together again. She stopped contacting him only because I was monitoring her every action. This lead me to believe that she was having a hard time choosing between a man she loved and the father of her children and ultimately she only tried to work things out with me because of the kids.

I did not really get the feeling that she was really remorseful because of her action but was also willing to work things out because I loved her and she is the mother of my kids.

Fast forward a couple of years and the OM out of the picture. Things started to work out better. I made some changes to make more time for her and You can say we rekindled our love. Her whole demeanor changed and thing were back together as it was prior to the EA/PA.

I don't have any reason to believe that she has contacted him again and they have met because they are not in even in the same country. She has pretty much confined herself in the house with her kids. Not totally sure what exactly triggered her anxiety and panic attacks but she did see a small snake on the back yard a week before her episodes started and she was very paranoid. She is also very superstitious so she did not only apologize to me but tried to make amends with friends that she may have wronged whether it was through gossip etc.. I am currently actually trying to get her to go out and make mom friends to help her with anxiety instead of being in the house all day. 

Countless ER visits with the doctors saying nothing is wrong with her and that it is just anxiety and panic attacks lead her to believe that this maybe happening to her because of for the lack of a better word Karma and in her eyes the biggest sin she committed was that of the affair which is why she brought it up and asked for forgiveness.

Here is my dilemma. Although everything is good now and that she is trying to amend everything and in my gut instinct I really believe she has changed herself and that she really loves me and the kids but in the back of my head I see how I always until now sympathized with her and never wanted to see her cry and it hurts me to see her have a mental breakdown because of her anxiety and even though I'm very hurt by her revelations I still hide my own feeling to not trigger more of her anxiety problems yet she had no problem cheating on me and even when caught and I was on the same situation literally crying, angry, having a mental break down she continue to contact him.

Now that I found out about the PA it only makes it worse because it only shows that she did not sympathy for me at the time even though she had a PA with him and did not stop contacting him after she was caught right away. I kind of feel she only spilled the truth because of her selfish reasons that asking for forgiveness will remedy her current anxiety issues. 

In my heart I really want things to work out but now that I got a grip of the past again it is now again hard to let go and I don't know if I want to know more or not and by knowing more what can It help with??? aside from possibly breaking my heart even more??


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## MarriedDude

huanito said:


> Here is my dilemma. *Although everything is good now and that she is trying to amend everything and in my gut instinct I really believe she has changed herself and that she really loves me and the kids but in the back of my head I see how I always until now sympathized with her and never wanted to see her cry and it hurts me to see her have a mental breakdown because of her anxiety and even though I'm very hurt by her revelations I still hide my own feeling to not trigger more of her anxiety problems yet she had no problem cheating on me and even when caught and I was on the same situation literally crying, angry, having a mental break down she continue to contact him.*



This is what she needs to know. 

You need to stop hiding your feelings. To be fair....she will never be able to even try to address with you -until she knows the reality of the hurt...where it comes from. 

You're mad -you helped her...and remember how she refused to help you. Now she wants forgiveness again -she wants you to make her feel better -though she has no right to this relief. You have every right to be Mad. 

Tell her...make it clear...that SHE has to figure out how to fix this. NOT YOU. You don't have to forgive her and you sure as hell don't have to make her feel better


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## ConanHub

Ok. Sounds like guilt and paranoia are getting to her.

Not REMORSE!

This still shows no love for you, only a self preservation reaction to a perceived supernatural threat.

This is a mess and I suspect you are a marriage at all cost kind of guy so I am out.

The health of your children, you and even your extremely messed up wife are more important than keeping your marriage going.

Marriages can be saved but it should never be at the expense of everyone's health.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985

huanito said:


> I did not really get the feeling that she was really remorseful because of her action
> 
> *She is also very superstitious so she did not only apologize to me*


No apology? I never heard that one before, being superstitious so cannot apologize. Cannot find any hits on that on google either.


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## drifter777

*I have no complains from her cheating again or even suspicious of her cheating on me again *

You had no suspicions before you caught her cheating last time and now she would be a lot more careful and better at hiding things.

Now she comes clean - does this make you feel "safe"? Is there any trust for her in your heart? Will you ever be able to trust her?

She kept you in the dark about the sex because she didn't want to face the consequences of what she did. And now it looks like she's going to get away with it (again) because she's been "a good wife" since her cheating. A question I have is why in the hell do you believe her now? She unburdened her conscience as much as she had to. She told you enough to help her feel better and to make you think you now know everything. Do you really think she told you everything?


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## MattMatt

Chaparral said:


> I'm wondering if someone has been threatening her that they were going to tell you. This seems much more likely.


Or she might have seen an article in a magazine about cheating, or she saw an old episode of Dr Phil, or Maury and thought: "Well, at least I wasn't that bad." And then realised in a moment of startling epiphany: "Actually, I was even worse than that!"

Or maybe she is looking through threads on TAM and reads about how confession is the way forward?


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## huanito

To answer some of the question above. How I know it's not happening anymore because I put her on extreme surveillance for the longest time the last couple of years. I had her phone record. Recorded them for a while in case I may need to refer back to it for any suspecious phone calls and also had GPS on her (I didn't go out the way to get the GPS but the vehicle has on star with gps that I have access to and for the past couple of years she didn't go anywhere really unless it was with the me and the kids which I didn't force her to but it was out of her own will to cut off everybody except her immediate family.

She didn't give me any great details now because I never really asked or pushed for it but I am thinking of sitting down with her and give her a chance to spill out everything that happened that summer. Kind of nervous.


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## MarriedDude

huanito said:


> To answer some of the question above. How I know it's not happening anymore because I put her on extreme surveillance for the longest time the last couple of years. I had her phone record. Recorded them for a while in case I may need to refer back to it for any suspecious phone calls and also had GPS on her (I didn't go out the way to get the GPS but the vehicle has on star with gps that I have access to and for the past couple of years she didn't go anywhere really unless it was with the me and the kids which I didn't force her to but it was out of her own will to cut off everybody except her immediate family.
> 
> *She didn't give me any great details now because I never really asked or pushed* for it but I am thinking of sitting down with her and give her a chance to spill out everything that happened that summer. Kind of nervous.


Do you really think she didn't give you details/info because you didn't ask for it? 

You didn't ask her to confess recently -but she did...when it suited her. 

Have you ever asked yourself why she would do the things she does? What does she have to gain from telling you details? What does she have to lose?

What did she gain by coming clean? Her own peace of mind...what did it cost?

It cost you yours.


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## sixbravebulls

I have to say that I am SHOCKED by the amount of cheating WOMEN out there. Geez. I grew up thinking men cheated, not women. Now, among my colleagues and friends it definitely more women cheating. (I'm 42.)


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## MattMatt

I wanted NO details of my wife's affair. None whatsoever. Just Knowing that she had was enough for me to cope with, TBH.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2asdf2

If you are ever going to want details, get them now.

If you accept things as they are now, don't ever think of asking then. You will get a lot of resistance and resentment if you do.


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## Aspydad

Sorry this has happened to you. I can tell, you are in love with your wife (or who you thought your wife was.) 

If everything is so great with your family life - why would she be having anxiety attacks? There are two reasons for having an attack: 1) is an anxiety disorder 2) another condition is causing excess stress thus bringing her over the threshold of the stress that she can handle (i.e. everyone has a breaking point.)

Just because of her age, I am going to say the #1 is very unlikely - this would have shown up years ago. So that leaves #2 - SOMETHING is causing great stress and I just wonder if somehow she suspected that you were going to find out eventually one way or another? So she decides it is better that you find out from her. Or, she has some other disorder that makes it hard for her to control her actions - I for one believe you were about to find out anyway.

I tell you, if I were you, I would DEMAND every detail and then - confirm with the other dude. If she tried to hold just one iota back - I would be DONE. The deception here is just so great. I can handle if someone makes a mistake - but, the deception afterwords would just completely drive me away. That's my opinion anyway.


----------



## G.J.

huanito said:


> To answer some of the question above. How I know it's not happening anymore because I put her on extreme surveillance for the longest time the last couple of years. I had her phone record. Recorded them for a while in case I may need to refer back to it for any suspecious phone calls and also had GPS on her (I didn't go out the way to get the GPS but the vehicle has on star with gps that I have access to and for the past couple of years she didn't go anywhere really unless it was with the me and the kids which I didn't force her to but it was out of her own will to cut off everybody except her immediate family.
> 
> She didn't give me any great details now because I never really asked or pushed for it but I am thinking of sitting down with her and give her a chance to spill out everything that happened that summer. Kind of nervous.


IF your decided on doing that MAKE HER write out the dates and details as much as she can remember. 

She can at least put them in chronological order

Then take it and tell her you will look at it soon...*then a couple of days* later ask her to tell you ref the written details she gave you

It will be hard to do it that way but it will be more accurate


----------



## 86857

> Where in the end she would say "I didn't do it but *it seems you wont rest until I tell you I did*"


 Outrageous. Last time she turned it back on you. The focus this time seems to be on HER panic attacks, HER karma, not on her lying, not on remorse, not on R, and certainly not on YOU, the cruelly injured party. She may be manipulating you again. 

My first question to her would be,
"What caused you to tell me this now, because SOMETHING did." 
It's very fishy. If there is something, she may be lying to you by non-disclosure. Remind her of that concept. Is this the only time she saw a snake in the yard for 5 years? And if so is she that superstitious that it would have caused the confession???

Fool me once and all that. . . I would want *verifiable truth* meaning immediate heavy-duty snooping, emails (' incl sent' & 'bin'), phone, FB etc and VAR. Even if OM isn't in her orbit, she may be confiding in a friend/family member. 

I would demand a timeline and FULL details of the PA because it shows their willingness for R - real R. Get her to write it down, then burn it if you don't want to read it. Sometimes I wonder if the imaginary movies that play in BS's head are worse than the real thing. I dunno. 

It was cruel of her to agree to another baby without telling you the truth, unless the pregnancy wasn't planned. 

Make YOU number 1, not her panic attacks. Like the oxygen masks on the airplane, put one on yourself first before attending to the children. Get IC asap. This is a seriously heavy-duty emotional issue. 

WS needs to step up. Make her aware - again - of the requirements Of R. 

I know what this feels like from experience. I'm so sorry you're back.


----------



## bryanp

Do you think you need a paternity test?


----------



## jdawg2015

marduk said:


> I also doubt that it's only the PA that's triggering her anxiety -- five years later.


Exactly my thought when I read the post.... why now?

Subconsciously something is going on in her head.


----------



## LosingHim

Aspydad said:


> Sorry this has happened to you. I can tell, you are in love with your wife (or who you thought your wife was.)
> 
> If everything is so great with your family life - why would she be having anxiety attacks? There are two reasons for having an attack: 1) is an anxiety disorder 2) another condition is causing excess stress thus bringing her over the threshold of the stress that she can handle (i.e. everyone has a breaking point.)
> 
> Just because of her age, I am going to say the #1 is very unlikely - this would have shown up years ago. So that leaves #2 - SOMETHING is causing great stress and I just wonder if somehow she suspected that you were going to find out eventually one way or another? So she decides it is better that you find out from her. Or, she has some other disorder that makes it hard for her to control her actions - I for one believe you were about to find out anyway.
> 
> I tell you, if I were you, I would DEMAND every detail and then - confirm with the other dude. If she tried to hold just one iota back - I would be DONE. The deception here is just so great. I can handle if someone makes a mistake - but, the deception afterwords would just completely drive me away. That's my opinion anyway.


Anxiety disorders can show up at any age. Mine showed up at the age of 31, out of the blue. Thinking back, I had a lot of stress, but never had panic attacks. I was sitting in a meeting one day at work, tried to swallow, couldn't and went into a full blown panic attack. I've had them ever since.

Hormones out of whack can cause it. Caffeine and nicotine can cause it. I have a friend who can't eat chocolate because it will put her into a panic attack. Thyroid issues can cause it. Low vitamin B and D can cause it. I have a friend right now who has never had any issues that had to stop drinking his pre workout shake because it was throwing him into a panic attack each time he drank it. There are SO many things that can cause anxiety to trigger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lostinthought61

you really put the cart before the horse on this one, in other words you forgave her before you heard all the details, so now she can completely shed all her guilt on you and now you get to carry it all around... and you gave her a get out jail free card. she is now burdened free and you have now been bestowed with her shame, to carry around. if anything she should come out to the family and as well, give her back her shame.


----------



## ThePheonix

huanito said:


> She didn't give me any great details now because I never really asked or pushed for it but I am thinking of sitting down with her and give her a chance to spill out everything that happened that summer. Kind of nervous.


Just be aware that if you go down this road you'll never be certain that you're getting all the "details". As they say, curiosity killed the cat.


----------



## Mr Blunt

In addressing your concern about asking for great details I will give you my experience.

My wife also admitted to a PA. That is the main issue for me and getting great details was not recommended by my counselor. Of course I was tempted to get the details, like a moth drawn to the flame, but resisted. After NOT getting the details for over 20 years I can tell you that I am very convinced that NOT getting the details was right for me.

I really do not see the great value in getting great details. The main issue by far is the PA and I know that occurred and that is by far the number one issue. Instead of getting the gory sexy details I decided to divorce her and told her that *her actions and attitude for the next several years will tell me what I need to know.* She stayed clean and never contacted the OM and proved for 4 years that she was only interested in me. I remarried her and kept up with my plan to get myself more self-sufficient in case this happens again I will not be as devastated and will be able to have a good life without her.

I am 99% convinced by watching her for over 20 years that she has not had an EA or a PA. She has been a good wife and mother all that time.

*I have read many accounts of those that get great details and those details torment them for decades*. I have read some that say they wished that they never got those details because the details presented a LOT more barriers to reconciliation and they cannot get them out of their mind. . Read the accounts of those that get great entails and then weigh the positives and negatives and that will tell you a lot. My guess is that some will tell you that there are positives but I have never read any that would convince me that my refusing to get details was a detriment. In fact, I am convinced that my way saved me a lot of heart palpitations and decades of emotional troubles.



> *Quote of OP*
> A part of me want to know everything that happened between them *to once and for all put everything to rest* and a part of me wish she didn't tell me anything and kept quite since within the last year I finally started feeling better about it.


*Knowing all the great details will NOT put everything to rest once and for all!* I have over 20 years of successful R and am doing real well. However, with just the knowledge that my wife betrayed me 20 years ago is so powerful that everything has not been put to rest once and for all. We are doing very well but there is still some permanent damage done. If I had the great details I would have extra damage to my emotions and attitude and I do believe that the details would be more damaging than positive.

If you think that knowing the great details is going to make the main issue of her betrayal a lot better you are mistaken IMO. *In fact I believe that you have more than enough right now to deal with without the added problems with details. IMO.*

You also seem to have a lot going for you and your wife. I have read a LOT of posts that do not have as many positives as you have stated in your posts.


----------



## bfree

Huanito, I've got a question for you and I apologize if this has already been discussed. If her anxiety is, as you suspect, directly related to guilt from her betrayal of you why do you think shielding her from the consequences is helping her to work through her feelings? How can she make restitution for her transgressions if you don't let her? Don't you see that by not sharing your thoughts and feelings about this you are essentially isolating her in her own quagmire of guilt? Don't you see that by not requiring her to "pay" for her sins you are depriving her of the opportunity to effectively move past and beyond her actions? You've stuck her in limbo and it's eating her alive. Is that your idea of love?


----------



## Aspydad

LosingHim said:


> Anxiety disorders can show up at any age. Mine showed up at the age of 31, out of the blue. Thinking back, I had a lot of stress, but never had panic attacks. I was sitting in a meeting one day at work, tried to swallow, couldn't and went into a full blown panic attack. I've had them ever since.
> 
> Hormones out of whack can cause it. Caffeine and nicotine can cause it. I have a friend who can't eat chocolate because it will put her into a panic attack. Thyroid issues can cause it. Low vitamin B and D can cause it. I have a friend right now who has never had any issues that had to stop drinking his pre workout shake because it was throwing him into a panic attack each time he drank it. There are SO many things that can cause anxiety to trigger.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I stand corrected - you are right. I actually pay money for birth control pills for my 20 year old so that we could get her hormones under control as this could have been what was contributing to her anxiety attacks. But, she had other issues as well and so I do not know that this was the primary cause (I suspect NOT) - I do know that they can all add up and when you pass that threshold - the attack occurs.

I still suspect in this case - given what has occurred - that there is another stress factor causing the attacks - and it is not hormones.


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## sparrow555

What you did these last 5 years did not work. How you dealt with it or how you minimized them in your mind, how you tried to suppress the pain and the truth.. They did not work,

Try something different now.


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## ConanHub

Mr Blunt said:


> In addressing your concern about asking for great details I will give you my experience.
> 
> My wife also admitted to a PA. That is the main issue for me and getting great details was not recommended by my counselor. Of course I was tempted to get the details, like a moth drawn to the flame, but resisted. After NOT getting the details for over 20 years I can tell you that I am very convinced that NOT getting the details was right for me.
> 
> I really do not see the great value in getting great details. The main issue by far is the PA and I know that occurred and that is by far the number one issue. Instead of getting the gory sexy details I decided to divorce her and told her that *her actions and attitude for the next several years will tell me what I need to know.* She stayed clean and never contacted the OM and proved for 4 years that she was only interested in me. I remarried her and kept up with my plan to get myself more self-sufficient in case this happens again I will not be as devastated and will be able to have a good life without her.
> 
> I am 99% convinced by watching her for over 20 years that she has not had an EA or a PA. She has been a good wife and mother all that time.
> 
> *I have read many accounts of those that get great details and those details torment them for decades*. I have read some that say they wished that they never got those details because the details presented a LOT more barriers to reconciliation and they cannot get them out of their mind. . Read the accounts of those that get great entails and then weigh the positives and negatives and that will tell you a lot. My guess is that some will tell you that there are positives but I have never read any that would convince me that my refusing to get details was a detriment. In fact, I am convinced that my way saved me a lot of heart palpitations and decades of emotional troubles.
> 
> 
> 
> *Knowing all the great details will NOT put everything to rest once and for all!* I have over 20 years of successful R and am doing real well. However, with just the knowledge that my wife betrayed me 20 years ago is so powerful that everything has not been put to rest once and for all. We are doing very well but there is still some permanent damage done. If I had the great details I would have extra damage to my emotions and attitude and I do believe that the details would be more damaging than positive.
> 
> If you think that knowing the great details is going to make the main issue of her betrayal a lot better you are mistaken IMO. *In fact I believe that you have more than enough right now to deal with without the added problems with details. IMO.*
> 
> You also seem to have a lot going for you and your wife. I have read a LOT of posts that do not have as many positives as you have stated in your posts.


This is you Blunt.

There are also many that had details put their minds to rest and helped them get over mind movies and move forward.

One size doesn't fit all for knowing details.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LosingHim

Aspydad said:


> I stand corrected - you are right. I actually pay money for birth control pills for my 20 year old so that we could get her hormones under control as this could have been what was contributing to her anxiety attacks. But, she had other issues as well and so I do not know that this was the primary cause (I suspect NOT) - I do know that they can all add up and when you pass that threshold - the attack occurs.
> 
> *I still suspect in this case - given what has occurred - that there is another stress factor causing the attacks - and it is not hormones.*


That could very well be true.  Anxiety is hard to get to the root of. Plus, they can be hereditary. I was convinced my anxiety was coming from a thyroid issue, I had all of the symptoms, appeared to be a textbook case. I had a full thyroid panel work up done and have zero thyroid issues. But I did have abnormally high testosterone, low vitamin B and D. All of which cause anxiety. Add that to the fact that I was abused by my ex husband and I was a breeding ground for panic attacks and anxiety issues. I'm sure there's more underlying that I won't go into here because they are sensitive issues. Not to mention, my mom has severe anxiety issues, as did my grandpa before he passed. 

There's also the issue of situational anxiety. My husband gets situational anxiety when he has to cross a busy intersection, but he's never had a panic attack or an accident. 

Some medications can cause it too. It's hard telling where OP's wifes anxiety is actually coming from - whether it's one thing, a culmination of things or something medical.


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## jorgegene

LosingHim said:


> That could very well be true.  Anxiety is hard to get to the root of. Plus, they can be hereditary. I was convinced my anxiety was coming from a thyroid issue, I had all of the symptoms, appeared to be a textbook case. I had a full thyroid panel work up done and have zero thyroid issues. But I did have abnormally high testosterone, low vitamin B and D. All of which cause anxiety. Add that to the fact that I was abused by my ex husband and I was a breeding ground for panic attacks and anxiety issues. I'm sure there's more underlying that I won't go into here because they are sensitive issues. Not to mention, my mom has severe anxiety issues, as did my grandpa before he passed.
> 
> There's also the issue of situational anxiety. My husband gets situational anxiety when he has to cross a busy intersection, but he's never had a panic attack or an accident.
> 
> Some medications can cause it too. It's hard telling where OP's wifes anxiety is actually coming from - whether it's one thing, a culmination of things or something medical.


back in the 70's there was no such thing as 'panic' or 'anxiety disorder' in the psychiatric manuals. anxiety and panic were considered symptomatic of a more expansive disorder such as latent schizophrenia or paranoia. thankfully, psy research has deemed anxiety as a potential isolated disorder all it's own usually closely related to depression or other affective disorders.
and you are right; very complex, possibly hereditary and not necessarily environmental.


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## huanito

I can't thank you all enough for all your inputs. The reason I came back to these boards is because 4 and 5 years ago when I posted my delima I got some good advice that had I listened to would have possibly made things a lot easier but me being naive and having full blind trust for her and not fully being able to let go and trying to reconcile things and bring back things the way they used to be on the fly is what brought me here today.

What was done is done and I can't change how I dealt with things leading to the affair and after the affair and neither can she change what she did to me back them. I agree that I gave her a free get out of jail card and put the carriage before the horse.

As many of you posted it is hard to get to the bottom of what triggered her anxiety attacks but I would like to point out that her sister had a far worse panic / anxiety attacks for months before she was able to cope with it so it does run in the family. My wife's anxiety started with panic attacks although the panic attacks only lasted a few episodes before the anxiety kicked in. She was having many symptoms which made her to believe that she was actually dying but countless visits to the ER and the doctors office ruled out anything physical that maybe wrong with her. She had EKG, xray and even ct scan done. Her panic attacks went away but the anxiety stuck around. She was also on the depo shot which the doctor said could have also triggered her anxiety.

regardless of what triggered her anxiety she started to think about anyone she did wrong and tried to make amends, she even became more religious and trying to amend her guilty concious is why we are here today.

As a previous poster mentioned I am not holding her hostage on her guilty concious and letting her share her feelings in fact I tried to make things easier on her by reassuring her that I forgave her fo what happened in the past before I was really able to do so.

what haunted my mind after the revelation of the PA is trying to get more details on what happened that horrible summer so I finally sat her down yesterday and wanted to get the truth in details.

I told her that for years after we reconciled that I was a tormented soul remembering everything that she has done to me and even when the thought of her cheating became I unbearable I prayed and cursed her in my heart that if she was not telling me the complete truth that it will forever haunt her in her heart until she revealed it to me or for the relationship not to workout.

This really took her back and she pleaded with me to fully forgive her but I told her I cannot forgive her for what I don't know in full details. She was reluctant to tell me details so we stopped talking for a little bit and took a break.

My two oldest were asleep because they have school but my two year old was awake and was with me and going back and forth between her and me and while I was thinking hard and doing some soul searching on whether I wanted to get the full details. Just playing with my son reminded of why we came this far into the relationship after the affair and that's when I read mr. Blunt's post.

I know different people deal with situations differently and I agreed with Mr blunt's post that the possible PA is what hurt me the most over the years and because I was still not convinced that it didn't happen because of her lies and deep in my heart I knew that there was a big possibility that it did happen and the only way that I was finally able to get over it was to accept it in my heart that even if it did happen I was going to give her one more chance. I feel like this is why I'm handling the situation a lot better then then the first time because I was already convinced that it did happen and I decided that I did not want to punish my heart by asking for details that my mind was curious about especially if I knew in my heart that such details would not really have a strong effect on whether I would end this relationship now after so many years it would only torment my soul for the years to come.

I say this because the last couple of years has been great and she has been truly been a good wife in every way possible. She has agreed to my demands of fully monitoring her every movement and actions and that she could not use the invading my privacy card because she lost that in this relationship because of her actions.

she would never regain my full trust and I say this not only about her but about anybody. When you experience something like this IMO it is extremely difficult to trust anybody blindly and you really see humans for what they are capable of and not only of what they do or did.

so getting back to the story I sat her down and told her that revelation of the PA has really hurt me far more than anything else could and getting more details will only torment me and because of her not sharing this with me in the past has brought back all the memories of betrayal. I told her that I forgive her for the PA and was willing to let this relationship continue to work although she has really turned my world upside down again. I reiterated my stance on everything I need for this relationship to work and that the simplest betrayal will end this relationship. I couldn't stress the last point enough because I truly mean it and I don't have no problem of letting her go I just didn't want to let her go for something that happened 5 years ago and which I believe she has tried to wrong her mistake by being an obedient wife the last couple of years.


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## ConanHub

Well. I don't believe you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## huanito

For those who don't believe me I don't blame you. The issue now is her anxiety heightened and she feels very miserable just sobbing all morning asking for my forgiveness even though I told her I forgave her. She is just talking to herself saying that she regrets what she did and why did she ever do it. She really believes that her problem is not that of anxiety but more like what goes around comes around or Karma. She is wishing she told me this sooner and asked for my forgiveness instead of leaving me torment myself thinking about the what ifs and the true extent of the affair.

I have never been able to see my wife cry without comforting her and feeling miserable myself but although I hate to say it I really don't want to hear none of it now. Her sobbing just reminds me of when I use to sob because of her actions. I told her that I forgave her and I don't want her to keep bringing this up again because I am also trying to get over this and don't need her to constantly remind me of this.

I am just saying this as a type and could be wrong for saying it but I really don't feel like I should be there for her or help her in her recovery. This sense of guilt and regret is something she bestowed upon herself and she needs to deal with it alone and quick because I don't want to hear about it or constantly be reminded of what happened otherwise I am not sure we can continue this relationship we may need time apart.


----------



## bfree

Just my opinion. Your forgiveness is just words. You don't really forgive her in your heart and in your mind. I also see you rugsweeping this once again. You're talking about how good your marriage has been the last two years. You're justifying trying to just move past this just like you did five years ago and your declaration of forgiveness is just more of this. Your wife senses this already which is why she isn't accepting your forgiveness as genuine.


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## huanito

I agree. I am trying to forgive and forget. I honestly don't know how to truly forgive aside from just saying it. Deep down I'm hurt and that is not going to go away anytime soon. I am at work and I can't even work straight. I am thinking that we may need some time apart possibly get separated and see what the future hold and if we will ever divorce. Since I really can't be there for her it is probably best if she is with her family trying to cope with her anxiety instead of being home alone with a heartbroken husband who doesn't want to hear none of it. I also believe I need some time alone maybe at least a year.

just thinking out loud.

~confused soul


----------



## ThePheonix

I've always believed and said its best to divorce a cheating spouse and let them woo you back if there's to be a reconciliation. If ya'll get re-married it wipes the slate clean and there's is little justification in the BS continuing to belly ache about the affair.
If you want to know know the "details" about the affair, go to the internet and download a couple of amateur videos titled, "f-ing my buddy's wife". You'll have it from a front row seat.


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## GusPolinski

Forgiveness is fine, but you'll _never_ forget.

If you're committed to staying in your marriage and making it work, I'd recommend MC for the two of you, as well as IC for each of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## huanito

ThePheonix said:


> If you want to know know the "details" about the affair, go to the internet and download a couple of amateur videos titled, "f-ing my buddy's wife". You'll have it from a front row seat.


I laughed a little but it ultimately hurt me more, Now I am having mental pictures. you are so wrong for that MISTER.


----------



## GusPolinski

Also, is OM married? If so, has the affair been exposed to his wife?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sparrow555

huanito said:


> I can't thank you all enough for all your inputs. The reason I came back to these boards is because 4 and 5 years ago when I posted my delima I got some good advice that had I listened to would have possibly made things a lot easier but me being naive and having full blind trust for her and not fully being able to let go and trying to reconcile things and bring back things the way they used to be on the fly is what brought me here today.
> 
> What was done is done and I can't change how I dealt with things leading to the affair and after the affair and neither can she change what she did to me back them. I agree that I gave her a free get out of jail card and put the carriage before the horse.
> 
> As many of you posted it is hard to get to the bottom of what triggered her anxiety attacks but I would like to point out that her sister had a far worse panic / anxiety attacks for months before she was able to cope with it so it does run in the family. My wife's anxiety started with panic attacks although the panic attacks only lasted a few episodes before the anxiety kicked in. She was having many symptoms which made her to believe that she was actually dying but countless visits to the ER and the doctors office ruled out anything physical that maybe wrong with her. She had EKG, xray and even ct scan done. Her panic attacks went away but the anxiety stuck around. She was also on the depo shot which the doctor said could have also triggered her anxiety.
> 
> regardless of what triggered her anxiety she started to think about anyone she did wrong and tried to make amends, she even became more religious and trying to amend her guilty concious is why we are here today.
> 
> As a previous poster mentioned I am not holding her hostage on her guilty concious and letting her share her feelings in fact I tried to make things easier on her by reassuring her that I forgave her fo what happened in the past before I was really able to do so.
> 
> what haunted my mind after the revelation of the PA is trying to get more details on what happened that horrible summer so I finally sat her down yesterday and wanted to get the truth in details.
> 
> I told her that for years after we reconciled that I was a tormented soul remembering everything that she has done to me and even when the thought of her cheating became I unbearable I prayed and cursed her in my heart that if she was not telling me the complete truth that it will forever haunt her in her heart until she revealed it to me or for the relationship not to workout.
> 
> This really took her back and she pleaded with me to fully forgive her but I told her I cannot forgive her for what I don't know in full details. She was reluctant to tell me details so we stopped talking for a little bit and took a break.
> 
> My two oldest were asleep because they have school but my two year old was awake and was with me and going back and forth between her and me and while I was thinking hard and doing some soul searching on whether I wanted to get the full details. Just playing with my son reminded of why we came this far into the relationship after the affair and that's when I read mr. Blunt's post.
> 
> I know different people deal with situations differently and I agreed with Mr blunt's post that the possible PA is what hurt me the most over the years and because I was still not convinced that it didn't happen because of her lies and deep in my heart I knew that there was a big possibility that it did happen and the only way that I was finally able to get over it was to accept it in my heart that even if it did happen I was going to give her one more chance. I feel like this is why I'm handling the situation a lot better then then the first time because I was already convinced that it did happen and I decided that I did not want to punish my heart by asking for details that my mind was curious about especially if I knew in my heart that such details would not really have a strong effect on whether I would end this relationship now after so many years it would only torment my soul for the years to come.
> 
> I say this because the last couple of years has been great and she has been truly been a good wife in every way possible. She has agreed to my demands of fully monitoring her every movement and actions and that she could not use the invading my privacy card because she lost that in this relationship because of her actions.
> 
> she would never regain my full trust and I say this not only about her but about anybody. When you experience something like this IMO it is extremely difficult to trust anybody blindly and you really see humans for what they are capable of and not only of what they do or did.
> 
> so getting back to the story I sat her down and told her that revelation of the PA has really hurt me far more than anything else could and getting more details will only torment me and because of her not sharing this with me in the past has brought back all the memories of betrayal. I told her that I forgive her for the PA and was willing to let this relationship continue to work although she has really turned my world upside down again. I reiterated my stance on everything I need for this relationship to work and that the simplest betrayal will end this relationship. I couldn't stress the last point enough because I truly mean it and I don't have no problem of letting her go I just didn't want to let her go for something that happened 5 years ago and which I believe she has tried to wrong her mistake by being an obedient wife the last couple of years.




What you did in the first place is called rug sweeping. Even though you knew it was a PA, you swallowed your pride and dignity. Even though you tell us that you accepted that it was likely a PA, you are just not being honest about it. This is the exact reason why you feel so hurt about it after all these years. Why would you be hurt if you knew it was PA ? because you lied to yourself and clung to the tiniest hope that it was not. You though ignorance was bliss. 

You act like a doormat, expect people to treat you like a doormat. Your wife might be honestly remorseful for the last few years, but the way you are making excuses for both her and yourself, is frankly weak.


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## huanito

You are right although I accepted that it was likely a PA I had a tiny hope that it may not have been since it was never confessed and just like the fact that I am telling her that I forgive her but deep down I don't know if that is ever possible. It is like my head is forcing my heart to be somewhere it is not ready for or vice versa I don't know which is which anymore. All I know is that I am doing a horrible job patching the wounds but what makes me go crazy is I don't know if there is any real way of patching it up without completely forgetting about her and moving on. Whether I ask for details and more confession does not change the fact that it actually happened and since it happened I don't believe I can ever forget. I am just letting time pass to heal the wounds and know it will never heal completely and any event such as what happened now can just bring back my wound close if not the same as DDAY. My only counter argument is that there is nothing else she can reveal to me of what happened in the past that is higher then admitting a PA so if maybe I don't have to worry about being brought back to DDAY unless she does it again in the future. What is gone is gone and the fact that we managed to get back to a healthy relationship after the revelation of the EA gives me hope that we may still be able to achieve the same goal if we work on it together but I am just not sure I want to go through with this again. It is her fault for doing this to me and I hate her for that. It took her 5 years and anxiety problem or whatever to admit a PA.


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## 2asdf2

huanito said:


> You are right although I accepted that it was likely a PA I had a tiny hope that it may not have been since it was never confessed and just like the fact that I am telling her that I forgive her but deep down I don't know if that is ever possible. It is like my head is forcing my heart to be somewhere it is not ready for or vice versa I don't know which is which anymore. All I know is that I am doing a horrible job patching the wounds but what makes me go crazy is I don't know if there is any real way of patching it up without completely forgetting about her and moving on. Whether I ask for details and more confession does not change the fact that it actually happened and since it happened I don't believe I can ever forget. I am just letting time pass to heal the wounds and know it will never heal completely and any event such as what happened now can just bring back my wound close if not the same as DDAY. My only counter argument is that there is nothing else she can reveal to me of what happened in the past that is higher then admitting a PA so if maybe I don't have to worry about being brought back to DDAY unless she does it again in the future. What is gone is gone and the fact that *we managed to get back to a healthy relationship* after the revelation of the EA gives me hope that we may still be able to achieve the same goal if we work on it together but I am just not sure I want to go through with this again. It is her fault for doing this to me and I hate her for that. It took her 5 years and anxiety problem or whatever to admit a PA.


I don't think you are or ever were there yet.

Marriage counseling is your best bet here.


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## ThePheonix

huanito said:


> I laughed a little but it ultimately hurt me more, Now I am having mental pictures. you are so wrong for that MISTER.


Folks keep saying they want the details and that's the only way to deal with it and put it behind you. Everything else is withholding and rug sweeping. 
What she's be telling you about the "details" is a watered down version of what happened. I mean five minutes of video gives a better description of what took place than five hours of talking about it. Might as well face the problem with spirit and courage, up close and personal.


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## Hoosier

Having another child, good move....................not


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## it-guy

Reading this thread makes me glad I divorced. It took me a while. And it hurt like hell. But, Ill never have to go through this ever again.


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## jb02157

You gave her the benfit of the doubt and took her back the first time. Now there's really nothing holding you to taking her back again. I think she knows this to and thus her anxiety attacks. I think you know what you have to do.


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## bfree

You said before that you cannot truly forgive until you know what you are forgiving. You also say that you do not want to know the details. I think that is your problem right there.

I'm someone who would need to know the details. Every place they went. Every restaurant they ate at. Every movie they saw together. Every store they shopped at. I recall a poster that tried to reconcile with his wife. She refused to tell him any details of her affair and rather than end his marriage he decided to try to reconcile anyway. A couple of years later he and his wife were out at a restaurant with another couple. The other couple was raving about the food and how it was such a great suggestion that they go there. His wife said "oh yes, we used to come here all the time." He looked at his wife and said "this is the first time I've ever been here." It was then that she realized that she went there with her affair partner, not her husband. She got a horrified look on her face and ran crying to the bathroom. That was only one of a few times that he was blindsided by careless forgotten details that he was never aware of. He had also previously found an article of clothing that the OM had bought her that she neglected to get rid of and he had found a picture of her and the OM together that never got deleted from their camera. Each one of these unknown details brought him back to D-day. This last time was the final straw. He was too tired to keep trying and they divorced several months later.

I think the reason you don't want the details is fear. But just like any fear unless it is confronted and dealt with it will have power over you. I realize that everyone is different but it seems to me that living in ignorance hasn't worked for you so far. Maybe you should consider why it is that you don't want to know the details because being in the dark doesn't seem to be very good for your marriage.


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## TaDor

huanito said:


> You are right although I accepted that it was likely a PA I had a tiny hope that it may not have been since it was never confessed and just like the fact that I am telling her that I forgive her but deep down I don't know if that is ever possible.~~ It took her 5 years and anxiety problem or whatever to admit a PA.


 You both rug-swept things. We all do to some degree.

People here and experts say the same thing: YOU need to be honest with each other and talk. She needs to tell you EVERYTHING.

I'm no expert, but we're working on it. 

Buy this book, it was recommend by others on this site and IT IS A GREAT BOOK! You read it first, then your wife. Or she reads it behind you (ie: when you're not reading it, she is behind you reading it). But YOU should read it first.

Dr. Shirley Glass - About the Book - NOT "Just Friends"

You can get it on Amazon for $10~25 or so. 

And of course, counseling.


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## sparrow555

> This really took her back and she pleaded with me to fully forgive her but I told her I cannot forgive her for what I don't know in full details. She was reluctant to tell me details so we stopped talking for a little bit and took a break.


What were her reasons ?




huanito said:


> You are right although I accepted that it was likely a PA I had a tiny hope that it may not have been since it was never confessed and just like the fact that I* am telling her that I forgive her* but deep down I don't know if that is ever possible. It is like my head is forcing my heart to be somewhere it is not ready for or vice versa I don't know which is which anymore. All I know is that I am doing a horrible job patching the wounds but what makes me go crazy is I don't know if there is any real way of patching it up without completely forgetting about her and moving on. Whether I ask for details and more confession does not change the fact that it actually happened and since it happened I don't believe I can ever forget. I am just letting time pass to heal the wounds and know it will never heal completely and any event such as what happened now can just bring back my wound close if not the same as DDAY. *My only counter argument is that there is nothing else she can reveal to me of what happened in the past that is higher then admitting a PA so if maybe I don't have to worry about being brought back to DDAY unless she does it again in the future.* What is gone is gone and the fact that we managed to get back to a healthy relationship after the revelation of the EA gives me hope that we may still be able to achieve the same goal if we work on it together but I am just not sure I want to go through with this again. It is her fault for doing this to me and I hate her for that. It took her 5 years and anxiety problem or whatever to admit a PA.




First and foremost, don;t let her pressurize you to tell her that everything is ok with her tears and panic attacks. That will not only give her false hope, it is being dishonest to yourself. 

Do yourself a favor and do not commit to anything. Give yourself a couple of months and see how you feel. No pressure to reconcile or divorce her. Let things go a bit for these two months. See how you feel.





> *My only counter argument is that there is nothing else she can reveal to me of what happened in the past that is higher then admitting a PA so if maybe I don't have to worry about being brought back to DDAY unless she does it again in the future.*



You know that this is absolute bullsh!t and I won;t even bother posting why. Every post of yours reeks of you being dishonest to yourself.




> I can't thank you all enough for all your inputs. The reason I came back to these boards is because 4 and 5 years ago when I posted my delima I got some good advice that had I listened to would have possibly made things a lot easier but me being naive and having full blind trust for her and not fully being able to let go and trying to reconcile things and bring back things the way they used to be on the fly is what brought me here today.
> 
> What was done is done and I can't change how I dealt with things leading to the affair and after the affair and neither can she change what she did to me back them. I agree that I gave her a free get out of jail card and put the carriage before the horse.



here is what you posted.



> I feel like this is why I'm handling the situation a lot better then then the first time because I was already convinced that it did happen and I decided that I did not want to punish my heart by asking for details that my mind was curious about especially if I knew in my heart that such details would not really have a strong effect on whether I would end this relationship now after so many years it would only torment my soul for the years to come.


How is this any different to your original strategy ?


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## Lostinthought61

huanito, if you can move on with this and leave it behind you then you are a better man than I. My only concern is that she sees you as weak for giving in so quickly.


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## Kobold

huanito said:


> My only counter argument is that there is nothing else she can reveal to me of what happened in the past that is higher then admitting a PA so if maybe I don't have to worry about being brought back to DDAY unless she does it again in the future.


Unless there's more she's not telling you.... Again. I read your other two threads and you definitely were given some good advice as you rightly pointed out, just about everybody told you that her affair had almost certainly gone physical. You left here and presumably buried your head in the sand for five years until her sudden burst of conscience or just good old fashioned fear of eternal hell fire apparently got the better of her and she finally did the right thing by confessing to you(which she should have done all those years ago.) 

Now it seems like you wish to go to round two of burying your head in the sand. You may disagree with that assessment, but by pretending like there's nothing else that she could possibly be hiding from you THIS TIME that's exactly what you're doing. How many more years until she has another series of panic attacks and confesses to yet another affair or something even more destructive? At what point do you decide that you no longer wanna live like this where you're just perpetually waiting for the other shoe to drop? 

If it feels like you're lost in the woods and you're trying to get out, but you just keep finding your way back to where you started from, that's only because you're taking the same path over and over again. Why not go a different route this time? I'm not saying you have to get every single filthy detail in all of it's vileness permanently stuck in your head, but you could at the very least have her take a polygraph to prove that there has never been any other affairs and that she hasn't even spoken to her AP in recent years. What could that possibly hurt at this point?


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## 86857

5 years of R hasn't worked because lies and marriage don't work. To save your marriage you now need to see her willingness to answer any question you ask with 100% honesty. 

But, she fobbed you off by not giving you ANY details at all. It's called non-disclosure. You then told her you don't want to know and you forgive her.
She may be using the sobbing to be sure you won't question her further. She's in control of the situation. Just like last time. 

You are saying you might need to separate for a while. 

Maybe YOU need to take control of the situation. Sit her down, tell her you are going to expose her and slap some divorce papers on the table. Then ask her some questions. Say you do need details after all. Get her to write them down - you don't have to read them. 
The important thing is her *willingness* to do so. No more lies.

Why the confession now after 5 years? The anxiety attacks are clearly linked to the confession. She ran into OM? He contacted her, or she him? Or something else? 

THAT is the detail that bothers me most and that would the first question I would ask her.


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## CantBelieveThis

Dam it huanito (or is it Juan-ito)  that is terrible to hear my man, I feel so angry just even thinking about how u must feel that am triggering myself!!! Wtf, 5 years? That so cruel, and that if it wasn't for the anxiety she could have kept from u forever.... 
I truly don't have any good advice, I couldn't tell u wat I would have done really, I was one of those that said if she ever cheats would be deal breaker so here I am 2.5yrs into R. 
You have been given plenty good advice and perspectives already, listen to this folks, they are telling you what u need to hear. 
Well I guess I would have to do something if I was in your spot, definitely tell her is all up in the air and you will take as long as u need to make a decision or alternatively consider a temp separation?

Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk


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## huanito

I appreciate all the criticism and harsh reality checks. For my own sanity I've decided that I am done thinking about this. I really need some time off. I'm done playing victim to my own stupidity. My inability to step out of my own little bubble and see things for how it really was and still is rather what I want it / wanted it to be. As far as I'm concerned this marriage is a sham and I am in no condition to be a loving husband to her. Still we had three innocent beautiful children who I would die for.

Throughout our whole marriage she was a housewife and never held a job. The last few days I was helping her find a job which she got hired today. As of now I'm no longer the person trying to save this marriage we both have a responsibility in raising our children and as far as I'm concerned that is the extent of our current relationship. She will be responsible for her own expenses. You could say this is the first step towards seperation since she never held a job I'll give her time to adjust herself and be able to stand on her own two feet and it's better for me because I can get more support raising our children.

My mind set is this marriage cannot work the way it is and has been. I'm done.


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## ThePheonix

here's the thing you need to think about after five years. Before she told you it went physical, was it any different. You seem satisfied. You knew all along it was close to a certainty. Now you've for sure. She likely kept the physical part hidden to protect herself and the marriage, such as it was. 
Personally, I think you've got bigger problems than her putting out to your buddy many years ago. She ain't feeling guilty about what she done many many moons ago. My take is she is fearful of planned major life transition possibly meaning you're soon out of the picture. She may have told you it went physical to jump start you into pulling the plug on the marriage so she'd be spared the task of doing it herself. Many people wanting out of a relationship do things to cause the other to leave. It's the same mentality that causes some folks in an unsatisfying marriage to cheat instead of seeking a divorce. They just don't have it in them to be the one to call it quits. We may as well be honest about it. Most likely you're history my man.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

You and your wife have had a good relationship for the past few years you say...

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content









This is what most of us thought when we read that.

I wish you luck, because that's pretty much all you have to rely on now.


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## eric1

I'm not even sure it can be called rug sweeping. The only thing that we know is that Huanito was so in on reconciliation that he looked the other way on what he was pretty sure was a PA. In return she wasn't just not trying to reconcile, she didn't even make it to the part where she was remorseful about it.

I don't want this to become a beat up the wayward post, but Huanito I want you to strongly understand that you saying you can't stop but help her when she cries has most certainly become a way for her to trigger that response in you. My strong suggestion is if you see tears for you to evacuate until emotions are more settled.


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## jdawg2015

It's easy to give advice to people behind a keyboard. The harshness comes from telling you what you probably see yourself but refuse to accept. Many of us have done the same.

Only you can decide if you can stay with her. But I suspect these last 5 years you've had moments of triggers. If you can't let things go the longer you stay in the relationship the longer the agony continues.

It's definitely a cold reality the day you sign the divorce papers and it makes all the talk real. But it gets better with time.

Good luck, give an update as things progress as I'm sure there will be things she'll do that you may want advice on. Prepare for her rewriting history.



huanito said:


> I appreciate all the criticism and harsh reality checks. For my own sanity I've decided that I am done thinking about this. I really need some time off. I'm done playing victim to my own stupidity. My inability to step out of my own little bubble and see things for how it really was and still is rather what I want it / wanted it to be. As far as I'm concerned this marriage is a sham and I am in no condition to be a loving husband to her. Still we had three innocent beautiful children who I would die for.
> 
> Throughout our whole marriage she was a housewife and never held a job. The last few days I was helping her find a job which she got hired today. As of now I'm no longer the person trying to save this marriage we both have a responsibility in raising our children and as far as I'm concerned that is the extent of our current relationship. She will be responsible for her own expenses. You could say this is the first step towards seperation since she never held a job I'll give her time to adjust herself and be able to stand on her own two feet and it's better for me because I can get more support raising our children.
> 
> My mind set is this marriage cannot work the way it is and has been. I'm done.


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## the guy

IDK how you do it....

Man I needed every detail...but my old lady didn't bull shyt me neither


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## the guy

Go on 6 yrs now and dont don't really deal with any triggers.

I just think you need to know everything and re address this hole thing from a completely honest wife.

Deal with the new pain and face it head on together...to bad she is all messed up....hell who knows...re address this with real honesty might straighten her right up.


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## Decorum

I think it is truly possible that she is suffering from Catholic guilt. Ha ha ha So to speak.

She may have what Rotter called an External locus of control. Basically, she is not shaping her life, a sort of "Karma" is as well as others whom she perceives as having more power than her.

These type of people can act guilt ridden and can seem extreem, but they do not really take responsibility for their actions, dispite their attempts at penance. They are in self-preservation mode, not self-reflection mode.

True remorse eludes them when it would actually save them.

She needs high level therapy. Seriously.

huanito, seeing some genuine remorse would do you some good.

She chose this cluster foxtrot for you and her family, you chose to maintain the hellish limbo by rug sweeping.

Take this opportunity, while you have the power in the relationship to get her into therapy.

Not just counseling, she needs more help than that.

Whether you stay together or not you dont need her falling apart.

I remember reading your threads. You fked-up.
Dont make the same mistakes.

I really do wish you and your family well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski

@huanito, I'd advise you to get as much in the way of details as you feel you need in order to come to a decision w/ respect to divorce vs reconciliation. In other words, _make an *informed* decision._

In every detail there is truth, and willfully ignoring, eschewing, or foregoing the truth -- especially in order to maintain a status quo -- is nothing short of rugsweeping.

Never, ever, EVER rugsweep.

N-E-V-E-R.

Perfect example...

For the past five years, you were led to believe that your wife had an EA and not a PA.

That was a lie. She had an EA/PA.

Would knowing that detail five years ago have altered your decision w/ respect to divorce or reconciliation?

From what I've read thus far, the answer to that would seem to be "Yes".

You've only just now started to peel back the layers upon layers of lies that have kept the truth from you these past five years.

Don't stop now, lest you learn something else five years -- and (maybe) another kid -- from now that would've prompted you to make a different decision TODAY.

Stop allowing yourself to be held hostage by this pervasive absence of truth.


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## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted* by huanito*
> I appreciate all the criticism and harsh reality checks.* For my own sanity I've decided that I am done thinking about this*. I really need some time off.



What you said above is what is also reflected in your last several posts. It appears that you are overwhelmed with all the different posts you have gotten and that is understandable. If you are still reading this thread then I want you to know that I agree with you 100%. Bringing up the issues of the betrayal can be extremely harmful at times. Some posters may call you weak or a rug sweeper and all the other labels but you have to save you. 

You have decided that you are at your limit right now and I think you need a break from this torment. A man can only take so much emotional ravaging.

You protecting yourself, taking a breather, and building yourself up body, mind, and spirit, when you are ready, is best for you right now IMO.

*I hope that you make you the top priority right now so that you get better and can be more help to your children when you get better*.


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## the guy

As painful as it is to hear, your old lady may need to face the consequences of having to tell you all the degrading things she did to buy the attention from her AP?

As shameful as it is for her to have to tell you these thing she may get this monkey off her back?

Alls I'm say is she may need to clear the air once and for all! Maybe she will stop freaking out.

I know my old lady is a hell of a lot calmer .


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## Marduk

huanito said:


> I agree. I am trying to forgive and forget. I honestly don't know how to truly forgive aside from just saying it. Deep down I'm hurt and that is not going to go away anytime soon. I am at work and I can't even work straight. I am thinking that we may need some time apart possibly get separated and see what the future hold and if we will ever divorce. Since I really can't be there for her it is probably best if she is with her family trying to cope with her anxiety instead of being home alone with a heartbroken husband who doesn't want to hear none of it. I also believe I need some time alone maybe at least a year.
> 
> just thinking out loud.
> 
> ~confused soul


You're seeking to heal your own wounds by trying to heal her self inflicted ones.

It isn't going to work. 

Lying to you for five years on top of an affair...

You are married to a deeply deceitful and self-motivated person. And you're a bleeding heart, so it works. 

Except that it doesn't. She only disclosed this to assuage her own guilt and asked for a blanket forgiveness without full disclosure. A get out of jail free card. 

This isn't fixable man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## huanito

I said I was done thinking about this but that was not plausible. I use the board not to only seek advice and input but it is also a good source for getting some weight of my chest. 

For all those that say get all the details of the affair I would like you guys to know that I cannot even muster up the courage to read my old posts from 4 to 5 years ago hence it might trigger previous negative memories, situations and details and how badly it made me feel back then. I have enough vivid negative thoughts already coming back up on its own from having to reopen this topic.

In my mind I have been putting so much focus on the negativity of what she did 5 years ago and not putting much consideration of what was our relationship the last 5 years. Prior to the affair we used to always and constantly fight. She used to feel neglected and I used to feel she was not being understanding and there was resentments between both of us. After the affair we both made some big changes. even though I am certain we fought and got into arguments here and there since every couple do, there is nothing that comes to mind. She has been very supportive, interested, obedient, loving and understanding and although some of you may say you may never know what she maybe doing behind doors I am sure I can say the same thing about each and everyone of your relationships. Didn't get caught doesn't necessarily mean didn't do it. I put my wife on a much more strict surveillance than one might be willing to accept in a normal relationship because of her previous offense. 

Bottom line is I have absolutely no issue with our relationship now and how it turned out after the affair. The big issue is her lying about the true extent of the affair 5 years ago.

I am currently trying to assess the situation like this. Does her lying about the full extent of the affair 5 years ago outweigh the effort she made within the last 5 years trying to be a better wife?

I don't think so but I'm not sure or at the very least want to come up with a quick conclusion.


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## G.J.

huanito said:


> I don't think so but I'm not sure or at the very least want to come up with a quick conclusion.


Quick conclusion and after 5 years of lying ?

Its all about what you can live with

You must decide if your capable to live not knowing

what she did

when she did it

how she did it 

Where she did it

How much of her love she gave to him

And any other questions you have unanswered

YOU HAVE to live with out thinking of this, and know it will not eat at you every week for the rest of your life




.


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## GusPolinski

huanito said:


> Does her lying about the full extent of the affair 5 years ago outweigh the effort she made within the last 5 years trying to be a better wife?


You have to find a way to answer this for yourself. For many -- myself included -- the answer to this would be "Yes", and the reason for that is simple...

Everything that you've built, all of the progress that you've made, all of the hard work that she's put in -- ALL OF IT -- is. based. on. a. lie.

And not just any lie, mind you, but THE LIE. A lie so grievous that, had you known the truth, you might have made a different choice.

And that's just it -- you weren't allowed the dignity of a choice based on the truth.

And the truth was not only withheld from you... a lie was given in it's place.


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## ConanHub

OliviaG said:


> OP,
> 
> I really thought you had come to the best possible conclusion when I read what you wrote below. I know that you are being overwhelmed with advice to "get the details" and basically being made to feel emasculated for the choice that you made to spare yourself the details and to choose to forgive your wife.
> 
> I just wanted to speak up to tell you that I wholeheartedly disagree with the chorus of voices insisting that you "get the details". I keep reading that here in this forum and I've yet to read of a case where getting the details is what saved the marriage. It seems rather to be the opposite.
> 
> I think the only details that you need to have or should want to have are the absolute assurance that the affair is over and that your wife is committed to your marriage. You sound to me like you have both of those. The details of her affair, IMO will only mess up your mind and emotions and make it impossible for you to remain married. If you want to get up the motivation to divorce your wife and break up you family, then ask for all the nitty gritty details. But if you want to save your marriage then just carry on without the details like you have been for the last 5 years. You said things had been going well and I don't see why they shouldn't continue to go well. Your marriage is in a fragile state now so I hope whatever you decide that you really think it through first. I know it's got to be a very painful and confusing thing to have to revisit.


The needed details are up to the BS.

If OP doesn't need them then that is his decision and as long as he isn't rug sweeping, then it is fine.

I know people irl and examples on this site where the details are what they needed.

It is up to the individual BS and not the WS however.

A WS needs to be ready to divulge whatever info the BS requests.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

P.S. Not knowing she was actually fvcking the relative was pretty damn important.

She needs a harder stance by her husband.

Left to her own judgment in all of this, she has displayed a pathetic inability to do what is necessary to be married.

From fvcking OM to lying her ass off about it for five years, she needs her feet held to the fire in some fashion to effect change and become honorable.

Don't everyone jump in about what a good wife she has been.

I married a good wife and she only fvcks me and sure as hell doesn't lie her ass off to me either.

She can become a good wife but she sure as hell isn't there yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TAMAT

Huanito,

The last 5 years very much count and are important because if they had been horrible you would end the marriage now.

Even if you ignore what your WW did 5 years ago, there is still the issue of what else she did.

Get a polygraph to make sure you are not getting another confession 5 years from now.

Tamat


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## huanito

I've made up my mind on getting divorced and told her about my final decision with absolutely no possiblility of reconciliation.


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## LosingHim

huanito said:


> I've made up my mind on getting divorced and told her about my final decision with absolutely no possiblility of reconciliation.


Well that escalated quickly.

But good for you for giving consequences.

NOW you should start to see how remorseful she is. 

This is when the truth will come out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski

huanito said:


> I've made up my mind on getting divorced and told her about my final decision with absolutely no possiblility of reconciliation.


Sorry man. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

huanito said:


> I've made up my mind on getting divorced and told her about my final decision with absolutely no possiblility of reconciliation.


I actually think you need IC more than a divorce at this point.

You don't come off as very healthy.

Get healthy and then make decisions.

Divorcing her isn't wrong and neither is reconciliation if healthy choices and boundaries are being made.

Your wife could use some one on one with a counselor as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## huanito

At this point it doesn't matter how remorseful she is. For those of you who followed my story from the beginning I caught her sexting him after the summer of 2011 and after going through a horrible year we split up on the summer of 2012 for about 5 month details are on a prior post. During this time she spent the 5 month in canada with family while I took custody of the both children here in the states.

Now after having some discussion and me demanding to at least know when the PA happened she told me that it happened during our 5 month seperation she was still contacting him. It was at this point that I was done I didn't care to ask how many time they did it during that time or if they did it during the summer of 2011. As far as I'm concerned every other detail is not relevant to me anymore even if the 4 years after we got back together were very good.

I cannot imagine how after all that we have been through between 2011 and 2012 and here I was busting my ass off raising two kids by myself during the seperation she went right back into the affair and she never bothered to tell me about this until she started having anxiety or guilt issues this year. This has hurt me more then you can imagine and I'm completely done. That is it.


----------



## GusPolinski

huanito said:


> I've made up my mind on getting divorced and told her about my final decision with absolutely no possiblility of reconciliation.





GusPolinski said:


> Sorry man.


Sorry, I hit "Submit Reply" on that last reply a bit earlier than I'd intended.

Anyway, if I sensed you were in a healthier place mentally than you currently seem to be, I wouldn't bother w/ this, but I feel it needs to be said...

Many of us here have posited w/ respect to what we'd do in your shoes. Some of us may very well be assured of that based on past experiences where others may be somewhat less certain. Others may honestly not know at all. What I _can_ tell you is that almost no one knows for certain how he or she would react upon learning of his or her spouse's affair... until it happens to him or her.

Either way, _this is a decision that you're going to have to live w/ for *the rest of your life*._ Based on that alone, I'd urge you to get to a point where you're not in constant anguish prior to coming to a concrete decision w/ respect to the future of the your marriage _so that you can come to the decision that's *right for YOU*._

Get some distance from your wife. Take a few days away to relax, decompress, and unwind. If you need to (and, honestly, it sounds like you may need to), talk w/ your doc about a prescription for anti-depressants and/or something to help you sleep.

If you have friends or family w/ whom you've not previously opened up about all this, it's probably time for you to do that. I don't say that from a "You need to expose!" perspective, but rather from a "You need to stop bottling things up" perspective. Holding something like this in (especially since OM is/was a relative of yours) only adds to the stress. Hit the release valve.

All that said, it sounds like your wife isn't in a very good place either, so be sure to arrange for someone (perhaps your parents, a sibling, or a very close friend) to care for your children before you take off.

Sorry man.


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## SunCMars

Did it ever occur to you that she wants out of the marriage. Why bring up these details ....... 5 years later? It could be the desperate move done likely (from a sub conscious impulse) from her. Some emotions will come out no matter how much one tries to suppress them. You likely and unwittingly beamed doubt and suspicious thoughts at her. Her quilt let her tune in on your tone of voice, your subtle looks. She may be forcing your hand, so that you will free her of your below-surface scorn. You will leave her and that is what she wants, but does not know it consciously.


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## ThePheonix

SunCMars said:


> Did it ever occur to you that she wants out of the marriage. Why bring up these details ....... 5 years later?


I doubt he got much argument out of her when he said he wanted a divorce. A weight has likely been lifted from both of them. 
After reading about bad year, the separation, etc., I can check the box again that woman who cheat have a low romantic interest in their partner.


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## ThePheonix

opuss said:


> I know, right? He was probably sweating right up to the moment when he sat her down and said "Honey, I want a divorce".. and she said "ok sounds good I happen to have the signed papers right here"..


I suspect they'd be dated several days before she dropped the bomb.


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## TaDor

I too suspect that her anxiety attack was because she has seen the OM and is either considering all those old emotions about him - OR feeling guilty because it brought up the past.

So, take a break - and consider WHY she's having those attacks. Don't tell her the proper answer for your needs. But state that 100% honesty is the only thing that'll make you consider no D.

When was the last time she saw the OM? 
And 4 years ago, was that the last time she saw him until recently (if yes, it was recent).

And of course, if she's at ease with getting a D, then let her go.


PS: My wayward had a panic attack soon after we started our false "R". She said it was because she ran into the OM in a public place and was worried about what I would do if I saw him (it was an AA meeting). But later, told the truth - that she was scared because she was wanting to go back to him and her feeling were going all over the place. She had only last saw him less than 2 weeks prior.

The lie hurt, the truth - hurt, but has more value.


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## eric1

It almost doesn't matter anymore. The benefit of making a firm decision to D is that you can immediately shift into 'heal myself' mode. You heal much faster when you don't have someone else screwing it up, who you have to help heal too and who is a constant reminder of the decision that you made. 

So this wasn't really a case of trickle truth but a case of false reconciliation exacerbated with tricks truth. Almost impossible to come back from.


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## bfree

I think Huanito is just tired. It takes a huge amount of effort to reconcile after infidelity. The emotional pain he's already gone through before learning of this latest betrayal has probably been immense. Now he's discovered that it was all for naught and he faces the prospect of starting over. That's a daunting task beyond comprehension. I don't blame him for ending this nightmare. He's a good man. He'll be back on his feet in no time and he'll find a good woman that values and respects him.


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## bandit.45

I think Huanito has found his deal breaker. In his gut he knew she had a PA five years ago. He's been carrying that around in his gut for five long years, and now that the dam has broke all that cloudy water has drained out. He can see clearly. 

I have no problem with him divorcing. Actually I like seeing this determination in him. His WW may see it also and finally have her epiphany and think to herself "holy crap, this guy is really going to leave me!" Or, as some of you said, she may have indeed wanted out of the marriage for a long time and has finally come to end of her tether also. She knew this latest news would push him over the edge and it had its desired effect.


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## ThePheonix

The proper way to reconcile is to first get a divorce, let the cheater come back with their hat in their hand, (and bearing gifts) and you decide (after appropriate contemplation and dating others) whether you want to reconcile. This shyt about you wanting, and sometimes begging, to reconcile and expecting them show remorse is for the birds. Women don't lose interest, cheat, get caught, have their husband cajole them back, and feel remorseful cuz they cheated. Its nothing more than dumbazz wishful thinking.


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## bandit.45

ThePheonix said:


> The proper way to reconcile is to first get a divorce, let the cheater come back with their hat in their hand, (and bearing gifts) and you decide (after appropriate contemplation and dating others) whether you want to reconcile. .


But let's be honest. How many times do,we see this actually happen?

I've been haunting this site for over four years and I've only seen this happen maybe once or twice. 

Once the WS realizes that they have no more marital responsibilities, and that they have lost the respect of their BS, they almost never try to come back. That would require suppression of all pride and obstinacy, two things that all waywards must have in abundance just to stay alive. 

To most waywards, having to do all the hard work necessary to win back their BS is too daunting a task for them. They would rather just take the easy and fun route and stay single or find some other sucker to shack up with. It's all about survival and selfishness.


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## Marduk

huanito said:


> I said I was done thinking about this but that was not plausible. I use the board not to only seek advice and input but it is also a good source for getting some weight of my chest.
> 
> For all those that say get all the details of the affair I would like you guys to know that I cannot even muster up the courage to read my old posts from 4 to 5 years ago hence it might trigger previous negative memories, situations and details and how badly it made me feel back then. I have enough vivid negative thoughts already coming back up on its own from having to reopen this topic.
> 
> In my mind I have been putting so much focus on the negativity of what she did 5 years ago and not putting much consideration of what was our relationship the last 5 years. Prior to the affair we used to always and constantly fight. She used to feel neglected and I used to feel she was not being understanding and there was resentments between both of us. After the affair we both made some big changes. even though I am certain we fought and got into arguments here and there since every couple do, there is nothing that comes to mind. She has been very supportive, interested, obedient, loving and understanding and although some of you may say you may never know what she maybe doing behind doors I am sure I can say the same thing about each and everyone of your relationships. Didn't get caught doesn't necessarily mean didn't do it. I put my wife on a much more strict surveillance than one might be willing to accept in a normal relationship because of her previous offense.
> 
> Bottom line is I have absolutely no issue with our relationship now and how it turned out after the affair. The big issue is her lying about the true extent of the affair 5 years ago.
> 
> I am currently trying to assess the situation like this. Does her lying about the full extent of the affair 5 years ago outweigh the effort she made within the last 5 years trying to be a better wife?
> 
> I don't think so but I'm not sure or at the very least want to come up with a quick conclusion.


You avoid conflict as a way to avoid pain. 

But this behaviour only yields more pain in the long run. 

Yes, five years of lying means that she willfully threw away any proper chance at reconciliation. She is not sorry for her actions - she is sorry she hurts now. And now wants you to relieve her anxiety. 

You will leave her eventually. It might as well be now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TX-SC

I guess I'll be the odd man out here. Your wife made a bad mistake. In fact, she made several of them. Not telling you the affair went physical was a weakness on her part. Perhaps she finally straightened her feelings out and knew this would be a deal breaker. Or, maybe she didn't want to hurt you more than she already did. It could also be that she is just selfish. But, she has done everything else right for 5 years and you seem to be building a better marriage as a result. I think you should at least consider putting this behind you and continuing to build what you have been working on for 5 years.


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## G.J.

TX-SC
Even if he could he really needs to know what's triggered the 'come clean' moment and would also have to face knowing the full truth as the last 5 years were built on deceit

A very tough road to go down


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## jld

TX-SC said:


> I guess I'll be the odd man out here. Your wife made a bad mistake. In fact, she made several of them. Not telling you the affair went physical was a weakness on her part. Perhaps she finally straightened her feelings out and knew this would be a deal breaker. Or, maybe she didn't want to hurt you more than she already did. It could also be that she is just selfish. But, she has done everything else right for 5 years and you seem to be building a better marriage as a result. I think you should at least consider putting this behind you and continuing to build what you have been working on for 5 years.


Don't you think it is better for her, though, to be away from him, a man who is willing to throw the last five years away?

I do not see any questioning of why she did not feel safe going to him with the truth. 

I think he should divorce and set her free.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TX-SC

jld said:


> Don't you think it is better for her, though, to be away from him, a man who is willing to throw the last five years away?
> 
> I do not see any questioning of why she did not feel safe going to him with the truth.
> 
> I think he should divorce and set her free.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, they both seem to have issues. Her anxiety issues need to be dealt with. I'm not sure what a snake means, but it must be a superstition of some sort. Anyway, they may be good for each other aside from these issues. I am not a fan of infidelity, obviously, and usually I am one of the first to recommend divorce. But, if the cheater is truly sorry and puts in the hard work, it can work out. Aside from the ommission, which he suspected anyway, she seems to be doing the right things. 

Does she deserve better? Maybe. Does he deserve better? Maybe. We just don't know anything except what he posts.


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## jld

TX-SC said:


> Well, they both seem to have issues. Her anxiety issues need to be dealt with. I'm not sure what a snake means, but it must be a superstition of some sort. Anyway, they may be good for each other aside from these issues. I am not a fan of infidelity, obviously, and usually I am one of the first to recommend divorce. But, if the cheater is truly sorry and puts in the hard work, it can work out. Aside from the ommission, which he suspected anyway, she seems to be doing the right things.
> 
> Does she deserve better? Maybe.  Does he deserve better? Maybe. We just don't know anything except what he posts.


I think they both need to be able to be transparent with the other. I think transparency in marriage is critical.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TX-SC

Transparency is very important. My wife and I are both very transparent and have 100 percent open policy. If she wants to read my texts or emails, posts, etc., go ahead! She feels the same.


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## TX-SC

OliviaG said:


> I think either of those reasons are more likely than any other reason that's been suggested in this thread. I think the most likely reason of all is the latter: that she knew she'd done something terrible and didn't want to hurt you any more deeply than she already had.
> 
> I know a lot of others will say she was only protecting herself. Well hurting her husband also hurts her. You can't hurt the one you love without hurting yourself because when they hurt, you hurt. The remorseful WWs best interests, her husband's and the marriage's best interests are all intertwined. What's best for one is what's best for the others. The only time your best interests will be at odds is when you split up. This is why divorce can be so ugly.


I agree and good post.


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## lordmayhem

TX-SC said:


> I guess I'll be the odd man out here. Your wife made a bad mistake. In fact, she made several of them. Not telling you the affair went physical was a weakness on her part. Perhaps she finally straightened her feelings out and knew this would be a deal breaker. Or, maybe she didn't want to hurt you more than she already did. It could also be that she is just selfish. But, she has done everything else right for 5 years and you seem to be building a better marriage as a result. I think you should at least consider putting this behind you and continuing to build what you have been working on for 5 years.


Trickle Truth is the marriage killer. Each new admission is like another D-Day for the BS.


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## TX-SC

lordmayhem said:


> Trickle Truth is the marriage killer. Each new admission is like another D-Day for the BS.


I understand that completely. And I'm not saying he should for definite stay with her. It just seems like he is bouncing back and forth so bad right now. The rollercoaster of emotions is tough to deal with. Time to calm down for a while then make a decision.


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## jld

lordmayhem said:


> Trickle Truth is the marriage killer. Each new admission is like another D-Day for the BS.


So make it as safe as possible for them to say everything right away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

TX-SC said:


> I understand that completely. And I'm not saying he should for definite stay with her. It just seems like he is bouncing back and forth so bad right now. The rollercoaster of emotions is tough to deal with. Time to calm down for a while then make a decision.


But he already told her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TX-SC

jld said:


> But he already told her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah he did, but until divorce is finalized there is always an out. I just think he needs to really think on this a while before making any mistakes he might regret.


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## jld

TX-SC said:


> Yeah he did, but until divorce is finalized there is always an out. I just think he needs to really think on this a while before making any mistakes he might regret.


Do you think she should trust him now, after he told her his decision was final?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TX-SC

jld said:


> Do you think she should trust him now, after he told her his decision was final?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If she has read any of the infidelity books or forums, she would know how much this hurts and would know about the emotional rollercoaster. Look, again, I'm not saying they definitely need to stay together, only that they need to give it some time before jumping to divorce after this latest confession.


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## jld

TX-SC said:


> If she has read any of the infidelity books or forums, she would know how much this hurts and would know about the emotional rollercoaster. Look, again, I'm not saying they definitely need to stay together, only that they need to give it some time before jumping to divorce after this latest confession.


I just don't think she should risk it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TX-SC

I have been posting too much on this, so let me just summarize then I'll back off. 

The OP is in mental anguish from his most recent discovery. He's bouncing back and forth between emotions. His original post on this thread was not about divorce, it was about how to overcome this rollercoaster and the pain. He even mentions that his wife has been great for the last 5 years. 

He talks about the new betrayal, where his wife finally confessed to what he already suspected: PA. This hurts. Hell, now he knows they had sex. 

What happened next is what I am concerned about. The OP started receiving replies telling him to dump her sorry ass because of the lying. He was already having turmoil to start with. So, he takes this to heart and declares a divorce. Even through this, she is crying and asking for forgiveness. She's still trying to do the right thing. 

In some ways, it seems like the OP is unwilling to let his own judgement win out. He's following the crowd. I know we ALL (or most of us), mean well, but no two marriages are the same. He must choose wisely or he may regret it.

Some are even saying he doesn't deserve HER. That may be the case. I just don't know enough about him to say for sure.


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## Marduk

jld said:


> Don't you think it is better for her, though, to be away from him, a man who is willing to throw the last five years away?
> 
> I do not see any questioning of why she did not feel safe going to him with the truth.
> 
> I think he should divorce and set her free.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

TX-SC said:


> What happened next is what I am concerned about. The OP started receiving replies telling him to dump her sorry ass because of the lying. He was already having turmoil to start with. So, he takes this to heart and declares a divorce. Even through this, she is crying and asking for forgiveness. She's still trying to do the right thing.
> 
> In some ways, it seems like the OP is unwilling to let his own judgement win out. He's following the crowd. I know we ALL (or most of us), mean well, but no two marriages are the same. He must choose wisely or he may regret it.
> 
> Some are even saying he doesn't deserve HER. That may be the case. I just don't know enough about him to say for sure.


I agree he was swayed by the crowd. And there are consequences to that. We have to be careful of who we allow to influence us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> I think either of those reasons are more likely than any other reason that's been suggested in this thread. I think the most likely reason of all is the latter: that she knew she'd done something terrible and didn't want to hurt you any more deeply than she already had.
> 
> I know a lot of others will say she was only protecting herself. Well hurting her husband also hurts her. You can't hurt the one you love without hurting yourself because when they hurt, you hurt. The remorseful WWs best interests, her husband's and the marriage's best interests are all intertwined. What's best for one is what's best for the others. The only time your best interests will be at odds is when you split up. This is why divorce can be so ugly.


Here's the thing. 

If she didn't want to hurt him, she wouldn't have done it. You don't go through such things and then lie about it. 

This isn't a white lie. This isn't telling someone that their ass doesn't look big. 

This is emotional fraud and manipulation. In the guise of "I didn't want to hurt you." Which in itself is actually selfish, because the person they don't want to hurt is themselves when they admit the truth. 

I love how cheaters like to claim that lying to their spouse is like Jesus carrying his cross around.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2asdf2

In some cases the best advice may be to rugsweep.


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## Marduk

It is far less authentic to call it brave to hide behind a lie that makes your actions look better than they were, than it is to admit the truth.

It's even more disingenuous to label it martyrdom in the cause of protecting your spouse.

The fact that it takes away your spouse's ability to make proper decisions -- especially ones that might not be in your favour -- is pure manipulation.

You can play with words, but that's what it is.

And speaking of words, I would use words like cowardice, manipulation, greed, narcissism, and a lack of integrity in place of martyrdom, protecting your spouse, and love.


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## Tron

She sexted the OM and made attempts to hook up (maybe successful, who knows) and when called out on it by her H, took it underground. Then within a year she moved out under the guise of separating and made the relationship with the OM official...only she didn't tell her H about it and pretended to be 'working on herself' and calling her H every day to hoover him and keep him waiting in the wings. 

She has been lying to him about everything for 5 F'ing years people!!!

jld suggests that the OP's W doesn't trust him and that is why she lied and the main reason the marriage should fail. 

I suggest that she is a lying sack of $hit and is unworthy of any trust and unworthy of being a wife.

The OP is well within his rights to terminate this "marriage". How he feels is totally understandable. 

There's nothing here to save.

Good luck Huanito! 

We look forward to you posting in Life After Divorce.


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## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> People do really stupid things that hurt others all the time and then regret them. This particular WW has been very remorseful with her husband and has proven it for 5 years. I don't see any emotional fraud or manipulation here. I'm not saying that that's always the case with infidelity but it seems to be here.


Lying for five years in a false reconciliation because you're afraid that if your spouse knew the truth they would leave is the definition of manipulation. It is emotional fraud in exactly the same way that lying about a secret debt would be financial fraud.

Regret it all you want. Fix it instead otherwise regret is useless.

Such lies breed more regret and are for the weak and selfish. 

She does not deserve him. She deserves to be alone.


----------



## ThePheonix

bandit.45 said:


> Once the WS realizes that they have no more marital responsibilities, and that they have lost the respect of their BS, they almost never try to come back.


My only argument with that is what the fvck does a BS think they are going to be getting if they can somehow sell the cheater to come back. I can't even conceptualize being yoked to a woman that has no respect for me and dreaming about other guys. If that's the best I could do I hope somebody just shoots me. (if kids are involved all you're doing is creating a tragedy and possibly screwing up their lives by staying together in the toxic environment you created because of the reality you just can't let her go. I don't think anything is worse for a kid than to see their daddy treated like a candy azz puzzy whipped beta male)


----------



## convert

OliviaG said:


> Here's my take:
> 
> It's not a false reconciliation if the WS has realized her mistake and is doing everything in her power to make amends and has been for 5 years. Yes, she lied. But that doesn't falsify the reconciliation.
> 
> It would be a false reconciliation if she wasn't really committed to the marriage and/or wasn't remorseful. But she appears to be both very committed and very remorseful, according to her husband.
> 
> Regret may be useless (although I think it's necessary, personally) and fixing it is what she should do, I agree. It appears to me that she has been dedicated to fixing it for 5 years now.


I think it could certainly be a false R according to a BS.
after all a BS thinking they had the full truth when making the decision to go into R. then finding they did not have the full truth, which could have made a difference in the decision to even try R in the first place.

new information (TT) is a whole new DDAY it essentially resets the clock on recovery


----------



## jld

OliviaG said:


> Here's my take:
> 
> It's not a false reconciliation if the WS has realized her mistake and is doing everything in her power to make amends and has been for 5 years. Yes, she lied. But that doesn't falsify the reconciliation.
> 
> It would be a false reconciliation if she wasn't really committed to the marriage and/or wasn't remorseful. But she appears to be both very committed and very remorseful, according to her husband.
> 
> Regret may be useless (although I think it's necessary, personally) and fixing it is what she should do, I agree. It appears to me that she has been dedicated to fixing it for 5 years now.


It would have been better to just tell him the truth right away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

OliviaG said:


> I agree that it would have been better to tell the truth right away, but the OP said that 5 years ago he suspected he didn't get the full truth. So he decided to reconcile *knowing* that he may not have the full truth and suspecting that he didn't.


My guess is that, with rare exception, most betrayed spouses believe they didn't get the whole truth when they decide to reconcile. I can't see this as being unusual.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## ConanHub

OliviaG said:


> Here's my take:
> 
> It's not a false reconciliation if the WS has realized her mistake and is doing everything in her power to make amends and has been for 5 years. Yes, she lied. But that doesn't falsify the reconciliation.
> 
> It would be a false reconciliation if she wasn't really committed to the marriage and/or wasn't remorseful. But she appears to be both very committed and very remorseful, according to her husband.
> 
> Regret may be useless (although I think it's necessary, personally) and fixing it is what she should do, I agree. It appears to me that she has been dedicated to fixing it for 5 years now.


She manipulated him by lying to him for five years. 

If you think it is fine for your husband to go bang a skank or two for a half a year and then lie to you about it to get you to take him back then more power to you.

Not murdering anyone after going on a killing spree doesn't clear it up.

Fvcking other men and lying about it for five years while you stop fvcking other men, doesn't take it away.

How about you get brutally raped and left to die in the gutter.

You are hospitalized and your attacker gets away.

Years later your doctor reveals it was him.

But he nursed you back to health and helped you through therapy to get you back on your feet.

He stopped raping after he ravaged you and has been a good boy.

Gonna keep him as a doctor?

I know it is a very crude example but you seem to think lying about anything is ok as long as you stop it and behave well.

It isn't ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> Here's my take:
> 
> It's not a false reconciliation if the WS has realized her mistake and is doing everything in her power to make amends and has been for 5 years. Yes, she lied. But that doesn't falsify the reconciliation.
> 
> It would be a false reconciliation if she wasn't really committed to the marriage and/or wasn't remorseful. But she appears to be both very committed and very remorseful, according to her husband.
> 
> Regret may be useless (although I think it's necessary, personally) and fixing it is what she should do, I agree. It appears to me that she has been dedicated to fixing it for 5 years now.


It negates the reconciliation in exactly the same way that it would negate someone on parole for manslaughter after he admits it was actually intentional murder. Did that person serve time and get parole? Sure. For the crime that was actually committed? No. Is that person more of a dangerous risk in the future? Hell yes.

In my view, if she was dedicated to reconciliation she would have done so in the light of truth, rather in the darkness of deceit.

She knew he would leave her, so she lied. To get what she wanted -- a hall pass.

The morality of this situation is quite clear.

As is the risk of future deceit and reoccurrence, as is the total lack of respect for his ability to make informed decisions about his own life.

There is only one way forward. Divorce.


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## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> I agree that it would have been better to tell the truth right away, but the OP said that 5 years ago he suspected he didn't get the full truth. So he decided to reconcile *knowing* that he may not have the full truth and suspecting that he didn't.


Baloney. After my wife's EA, I suspected it was more. I had to move forward under the faith that it wasn't with whatever objective data I could get my hands on.

At the end of the day, a reconciliation is a leap of faith. For both of them.

It can't be done while lying. Ever.


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## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> No, I don't think lying about anything is okay as long as you stop and behave well.
> 
> I do think that a marriage with a family involved is not something that you destroy easily, because of the potential impact on everyone involved. I also think that if someone has accepted his WS back into his heart and home that he must have done some serious weighing over of all the issues beforehand, including of his fear that he didn't have the whole truth. And he must have wrestled with his emotions terribly. If overall he decided that reconciliation was the best decision, it will have been the most difficult decision he's ever made and it was not taken lightly.
> 
> Naturally, he will have some insecurities that linger with regards to his marriage.
> 
> I think it's a shame if such a man comes here and is barraged with comments that basically accuse him of being spineless and stupid for trusting his WS enough to be willing to reconcile.
> 
> He's been anything but spineless and stupid. He's been able to forgive what for many would be unforgivable and in doing so has extended grace to a spouse that doesn't deserve it. (Grace, by definition is giving something good to someone who doesn't deserve it).
> 
> IMO he's been the very best possible role model to his children and his wife, and especially to her as she *knows* that she doesn't deserve a second chance. He's teaching how to forgive, something many people never learn. Something that takes a lot of strength.
> 
> A good woman, one who actually is remorseful in her heart will want to live up to the grace that's been extended to her. His wife appears to have been doing exactly that. If he continues to forgive his wife, she may be the most devoted wife that he could ever imagine just because she will never again take for granted what she nearly lost and she understands what it cost her husband to forgive her.


He's not spineless and stupid. Dammit, reconciliation is ****ing hard and takes courage and intelligence. He's been doing that work, after she got her rocks off with someone else.

Now, he is being asked to do all that work over again, because she didn't do the work to begin with.

And don't bull**** anyone, acting nice now after lying all this time isn't doing the work. It's covering your tracks.


----------



## jld

I agree, Olivia, that there are children here who are going to be affected. And I believe she may be a SAHM, so big changes ahead. 

But if after five years he does not see it worthwhile to forgive and rebuild, then I think she needs to move on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I agree, Olivia, that there are children here who are going to be affected. And I believe she may be a SAHM, so big changes ahead.
> 
> But if after five years he does not see it worthwhile to forgive and rebuild, then I think she needs to move on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If one wants to have children with integrity, one needs to demonstrate integrity as they grow.

Integrity doesn't happen when it's easy. It happens when it's hard.

She's demonstrated she has none. 

Is she a good role model? Would he be by looking the other way?


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> If one wants to have children with integrity, one needs to demonstrate integrity as they grow.
> 
> Integrity doesn't happen when it's easy. It happens when it's hard.
> 
> She's demonstrated she has none.
> 
> Is she a good role model? Would he be by looking the other way?


I think she is redeeming herself. I think the real issue here may be his hurt feelings, and probably hurt pride.

If the children were the priority, he would tell her they need to move forward in total transparency, and forgive and heal the past.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

OliviaG said:


> Yes, if he decides it's not worthwhile to forgive, then she'll have no other choice.


If he cannot forgive, she is better off moving forward on her own.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> Yes, if he decides it's not worthwhile to forgive, then she'll have no other choice.


I agree with this, and say that if I were the OP I'd be unclear as to what exactly I'd be forgiving.

Because the list of things to forgive is growing longer day by day. And the trajectory of that makes her recent behaviour an anomaly, and I'd be worrying about the return to the mean.


----------



## huanito

My decision is still to divorce her but she had been pleading with me since I told her my decision. I would like to share some of her feelings towards this.

She is very sad and has been begging me not divorce her. She told me that she will give me a 100% freedom (not meaning I can cheat but I can go back to working my second part job which I stopped to stay with her and help her cope with her anxiety) she said I can monitor her every movement and all she wants in return is to remain my wife and raise our kids together.

She said that although she did me wrong she tried to correct her wrong by trying to do everything right the last 5 years and it has completely broken her heart that I was so quick to call and insist divorce. She says she doesn't know how she could feel secure in this marriage knowing how quick I am able to let her go yet she doesn't want to be with anyone but me and that I will always be in her heart.

Here is my reply. I gave you clear warning in the past that honesty is a must for this relationship to work and even though everyone makes mistakes in order for this to be a healthy relationship you need to own up to everything and tell me the truth yet you decided to keep the complete truth hidden from me and the fact that you say I will always stay in your heart, I have heard that before. You told me that when we seperated in 2012 yet you had no problem keeping the affair going.

Her reply was from 2011 to 2012 she didn't do me wrong at all and I was completely in the wrong for separating with her just because I was being paranoid about what happened and what may still have been happening. Had I not seperated with her he wouldn't have been back in the picture. 

I told her that she is telling me I'm quick to letting her go but yet she doesn't see that she was quick to going back to the affair because I had a hard time coping with what she did to me. If she really loved me she would be sobbing and regretting what she did to me instead of just putting a time frame on how long it should take me to get over it before she decides to go back and sleep with him again because I was taking too long in letting go of the past.

I feel like I am to blame for everything. Had I not been quick to reconcile with her or wanting to just work out the marriage even though I was convinced all the truth was not being told we wouldn't be hear.

Yes I knew that there was likely a PA in the summer of 2011 but it never came to my mind that she would do it in 2012 after we seperated. After a year of torture. Happiness and sadness and at times sobbing together she was quick to cross me off as soon as we seperated.


----------



## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> Okay, I said I did not want to argue, but I guess you're asking me for clarification of how I'm thinking?
> 
> Integrity: she displayed none when she cheated and when she lied. However, since then she's been living with integrity. She's showing that one can learn from mistakes and correct their actions going forward.


How do you know? She's _acted_ good to him, does he know if she's actually _been_ good?

How can you correct your actions when you're still living those actions -- the core destructiveness of an affair is deceit. That hasn't stopped. We don't even know if it's stopped today. 

And, hell, he's being asked to go through the work to reconcile _all over again._ He did it once, only it was under a false premise. So now he has to go through the work again.

It's like he's in jail for her crime. Twice. 


> Him as a role model: he's not looking the other way. He's looking the ugliness straight in the face and, recognizing that she is truly remorseful, is making a conscious choice to forgive it, although she doesn't deserve forgiveness, hadn't yet earned it. He's demonstrating grace. Yes, he's been an excellent role model.


If he takes her back, he's bowing to fear. 

I say that intentionally. Not to shame him, and not even because I believe that if he decides to try to reconcile that he's not going to leave her eventually.

I firmly believe that he will. Now, or months or years from now.

He's afraid of loosing the woman he thinks she can be. The woman she has been trying to be, and I would say pretending to be.

But she isn't that woman. Never has been that woman. Likely never will be that woman. 

Because that woman would have told him what he needed to know to make a decision about his own life. If she loved him, she wouldn't have told him because of a panic attack, to be soothed by him.

She would have told him because she respected him, cared about him, and wanted to give their marriage back authenticity.

We are the paths we take.


----------



## bandit.45

I didn't see where anyone was insulting the OP. We do get harsh sometimes...when we see a good man being taken advantage of. 

This has nothing to do with how remorseful or penitent the WW has been. OP has his deal-breaker. It is simple as that. He's done. For the last five years he has been basing his reconciliation on a lie. He extended grace to her and she took advantage of it. It is possible that it was true guilt and remorse that made her break and tell him. 

But whatever the reason, there are never any guarantees with reconciliation. The wayward may be the absolute most contrite, honest, remorseful and hard-working person when it comes to re-building the marriage... they may work their butts off in IC to get to the root of their issues, do everything they can to build the BS back up and show them they can be trusted again... and still all of that may not be enough. The BS may decide that he or she cannot live with the betrayal and decide to divorce anyway. That is not a knock against the BS. That doesn't make the BS cold-hearted or cruel. Some people simply cannot stay married to someone who betrayed their trust and love.

Look at *Tears*. She betrayed her husband, he filed for divorce, but she continued to fight for her marriage and did everything she could to work her problems and build her BS back up. He divorced her anyways. He simply could not stay married to a woman who would throw away their marriage so easily. Last we heard they are dating again, but we will never know how it turned out.


----------



## jld

I think she was trying to protect her family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

huanito said:


> My decision is still to divorce her but she had been pleading with me since I told her my decision. I would like to share some of her feelings towards this.
> 
> She is very sad and has been begging me not divorce her. She told me that she will give me a 100% freedom (not meaning I can cheat but I can go back to working my second part job which I stopped to stay with her and help her cope with her anxiety) she said I can monitor her every movement and all she wants in return is to remain my wife and raise our kids together.
> 
> She said that although she did me wrong she tried to correct her wrong by trying to do everything right the last 5 years and it has completely broken her heart that I was so quick to call and insist divorce. She says she doesn't know how she could feel secure in this marriage knowing how quick I am able to let her go yet she doesn't want to be with anyone but me and that I will always be in her heart.
> 
> Here is my reply. I gave you clear warning in the past that honesty is a must for this relationship to work and even though everyone makes mistakes in order for this to be a healthy relationship you need to own up to everything and tell me the truth yet you decided to keep the complete truth hidden from me and the fact that you say I will always stay in your heart, I have heard that before. You told me that when we seperated in 2012 yet you had no problem keeping the affair going.
> 
> Her reply was from 2011 to 2012 she didn't do me wrong at all and I was completely in the wrong for separating with her just because I was being paranoid about what happened and what may still have been happening. Had I not seperated with her he wouldn't have been back in the picture.
> 
> I told her that she is telling me I'm quick to letting her go but yet she doesn't see that she was quick to going back to the affair because I had a hard time coping with what she did to me. If she really loved me she would be sobbing and regretting what she did to me instead of just putting a time frame on how long it should take me to get over it before she decides to go back and sleep with him again because I was taking too long in letting go of the past.
> 
> I feel like I am to blame for everything. Had I not been quick to reconcile with her or wanting to just work out the marriage even though I was convinced all the truth was not being told we wouldn't be hear.
> 
> Yes I knew that there was likely a PA in the summer of 2011 but it never came to my mind that she would do it in 2012 after we seperated. After a year of torture. Happiness and sadness and at times sobbing together she was quick to cross me off as soon as we seperated.



She told you all you need to know. She is blaming you for her poor choices. 

No. She's not remorseful. Not one bit.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> I think she was trying to protect her family.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She was trying to protect her own butt.


----------



## Marduk

Let me start by saying you're doing the right thing.

It's going to be very difficult, but you're doing the right thing.



huanito said:


> My decision is still to divorce her but she had been pleading with me since I told her my decision. I would like to share some of her feelings towards this.
> 
> She is very sad and has been begging me not divorce her. She told me that she will give me a 100% freedom (not meaning I can cheat but I can go back to working my second part job which I stopped to stay with her and help her cope with her anxiety) she said I can monitor her every movement and all she wants in return is to remain my wife and raise our kids together.


She had it, and threw it away.



> She said that although she did me wrong she tried to correct her wrong by trying to do everything right the last 5 years and it has completely broken her heart that I was so quick to call and insist divorce. She says she doesn't know how she could feel secure in this marriage knowing how quick I am able to let her go yet she doesn't want to be with anyone but me and that I will always be in her heart.


If that were true, she would have told you the truth, and the affair would have never happened.

What she wants is her mistake to go away without having to do the work.


> Here is my reply. I gave you clear warning in the past that honesty is a must for this relationship to work and even though everyone makes mistakes in order for this to be a healthy relationship you need to own up to everything and tell me the truth yet you decided to keep the complete truth hidden from me and the fact that you say I will always stay in your heart, I have heard that before. You told me that when we seperated in 2012 yet you had no problem keeping the affair going.
> 
> Her reply was from 2011 to 2012 she didn't do me wrong at all and I was completely in the wrong for separating with her just because I was being paranoid about what happened and what may still have been happening. Had I not seperated with her he wouldn't have been back in the picture.


Right. So her affair is your fault.

Just like you leaving is your fault.

You see what's happening, right?



> I told her that she is telling me I'm quick to letting her go but yet she doesn't see that she was quick to going back to the affair because I had a hard time coping with what she did to me. If she really loved me she would be sobbing and regretting what she did to me instead of just putting a time frame on how long it should take me to get over it before she decides to go back and sleep with him again because I was taking too long in letting go of the past.


Exactly.

You're seeing things clearly now.



> I feel like I am to blame for everything. Had I not been quick to reconcile with her or wanting to just work out the marriage even though I was convinced all the truth was not being told we wouldn't be hear.


You are responsible only for your own actions. You did the best you could.

Now you're going to have to do what you have to do.



> Yes I knew that there was likely a PA in the summer of 2011 but it never came to my mind that she would do it in 2012 after we seperated. After a year of torture. Happiness and sadness and at times sobbing together she was quick to cross me off as soon as we seperated.


Yup.

Your wife is on a path. One that will damage you and your children further if you stay with her on that path.

Only she can take herself off that path. And she hasn't, really -- she still blames you for the affair, blames you for the consequent end of the marriage, and was living a lie for five years.

You've been in jail with her, man.

You have the key in your hands. Turn the lock and push the door open and come out into the sunshine.


----------



## jld

OliviaG said:


> But you're not calling him a spineless coward...right?


I think it takes a lot more courage to take her hand and humbly commit to transparency and forgiveness in the marriage moving forward than to run away and let the chips fall on the kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

OliviaG said:


> No, I don't think lying about anything is okay as long as you stop and behave well.
> 
> I do think that a marriage with a family involved is not something that you destroy easily, because of the potential impact on everyone involved. I also think that if someone has accepted his WS back into his heart and home that he must have done some serious weighing over of all the issues beforehand, including of his fear that he didn't have the whole truth. And he must have wrestled with his emotions terribly. If overall he decided that reconciliation was the best decision, it will have been the most difficult decision he's ever made and it was not taken lightly.
> 
> Naturally, he will have some insecurities that linger with regards to his marriage.
> 
> I think it's a shame if such a man comes here and is barraged with comments that basically accuse him of being spineless and stupid for trusting his WS enough to be willing to reconcile.
> 
> He's been anything but spineless and stupid. He's been able to forgive what for many would be unforgivable and in doing so has extended grace to a spouse that doesn't deserve it. (Grace, by definition is giving something good to someone who doesn't deserve it).
> 
> IMO he's been the very best possible role model to his children and his wife, and especially to her as she *knows* that she doesn't deserve a second chance. He's teaching how to forgive, something many people never learn. Something that takes a lot of strength.
> 
> A good woman, one who actually is remorseful in her heart will want to live up to the grace that's been extended to her. His wife appears to have been doing exactly that. If he continues to forgive his wife, she may be the most devoted wife that he could ever imagine just because she will never again take for granted what she nearly lost and she understands what it cost her husband to forgive her.


I wasn't accusing him of anything but rug sweeping. Which he definitely did.

She destroyed the marriage. Not him.

Anyhow. Ignoring infidelity doesn't make it go away.

It needs faced head on and dealt with regardless of a reconciliation attempt or divorce.

By her lying, she denied an extremely essential process to try and reconcile with her H and this is a pretty standard result.

Moral of the story is, Don't fvck others and lie about it and then lie about it some more if you want to stay married.

This woman most certainly did not do what was necessary to keep her marriage.

Screwing another man while OP took care of everything at home was death by itself.

Lying to manipulate her already betrayed husband did a hell of a lot more harm.

You can't keep stabbing someone in the back and crapping on them and expect to keep your marriage to them.

I'm not calling OP a wimp.

He is very unhealthy and in an unhealthy marriage due vastly to an extremely selfish and pathetic woman.

I did advise him to get a lot harder with her if he expects to remain married to her as she has continually shown no ability to protect her marriage from her own stupid choices.

Forgiving doesn't mean staying married BTW.

I would encourage her to seek forgiveness and repent while encouraging him to give forgiveness.

Doesn't mean he needs to stay in a marriage with such an obviously incapable woman.

It takes two and so far, he has been pulling the marriage along while she throws wrenches in the gears.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> But you're not calling him a spineless coward...right?


Not at all. We all make decisions out of fear.

I've decided not to cheat on my wife out of fear of losing my marriage. Fear can be a motivator.

You just need to decide which fear is motivating actions that are good, versus motivating actions that are bad. For example, the fear of long-term unhappiness vs short term pain, or the fear of short term pain vs long term unhappiness.

And, anyway, I knew he wouldn't.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

*I want to show you the manipulation:*



huanito said:


> My decision is still to divorce her but she had been pleading with me since I told her my decision. I would like to share some of her feelings towards this.
> 
> She is very sad and has been begging me not divorce her. She told me that she will give me a 100% freedom *Bribery* (not meaning I can cheat but I can go back to working my second part job which I stopped to stay with her and help her cope with her anxiety) she said I can monitor her every movement and all she wants in return *Transactional thinking* is to remain my wife and raise our kids together.
> 
> She said that although she did me wrong she tried to correct her wrong by trying to do everything right the last 5 years and it has completely broken her heart that I was so quick to call and insist divorce. *Emotional Blackmail by Obligation and Guilt* She says she doesn't know how she could feel secure in this marriage knowing how quick I am able to let her go *Blameshifting* yet she doesn't want to be with anyone but me and that I will always be in her heart. *More emotional blackmail via obligation*
> 
> Here is my reply. I gave you clear warning in the past that honesty is a must for this relationship to work and even though everyone makes mistakes in order for this to be a healthy relationship you need to own up to everything and tell me the truth yet you decided to keep the complete truth hidden from me and the fact that you say I will always stay in your heart, I have heard that before. You told me that when we seperated in 2012 yet you had no problem keeping the affair going.*FACT*
> 
> Her reply was from 2011 to 2012 she didn't do me wrong at all and I was completely in the wrong for separating with her just because I was being paranoid about what happened and what may still have been happening. *Blameshifting and Gaslighting* Had I not seperated with her he wouldn't have been back in the picture. *more of the same*
> 
> I told her that she is telling me I'm quick to letting her go but yet she doesn't see that she was quick to going back to the affair because I had a hard time coping with what she did to me. *FACT* If she really loved me she would be sobbing and regretting what she did to me instead of just putting a time frame on how long it should take me to get over it before she decides to go back and sleep with him again because I was taking too long in letting go of the past. *FACT*
> 
> I feel like I am to blame for everything. *Because she has worked you over with psychological abuse* Had I not been quick to reconcile with her or wanting to just work out the marriage even though I was convinced all the truth was not being told we wouldn't be hear. *FACT*
> 
> Yes I knew that there was likely a PA in the summer of 2011 *but it never came to my mind that she would do it in 2012 after we seperated.* *Critical piece of information and also FACT* After a year of torture. Happiness and sadness and at times sobbing together she was quick to cross me off as soon as we seperated. *FACT*


You are making the right choice. She has not healed. She is still a master manipulator. Cut her loose. ONLY then will she feel the full brunt of consequences and turn her life around.


----------



## Marduk

I wish I could like that post 1000x @Blossom Leigh.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I think she was trying to protect her family.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Protecting your family comes before an affair.


----------



## jld

She is right that she cannot be secure with someone who would throw five years away so easily. She needs to accept his decision and move on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

jld said:


> I think it takes a lot more courage to take her hand and humbly commit to transparency and forgiveness in the marriage moving forward than to run away and let the chips fall on the kids.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It also takes a lot of courage to realize you alone don't make a marriage with a broken person.

OP has consistently shown more caring for his children than his WW.

He took care of them while she decided to continue to damage her marriage and them by having sex with her idiot.

OP will continue to care for his children but not by sleeping with a treacherous and unfaithful wife.

At some point, a while ago, she should have realized her absolute guilt in her affair. She still hasn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

I don't know that I can do better than BL.

She is still blaming you for the affair 5 years later. 

That is simply crazy.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> I don't know that I can do better than BL.
> 
> She is still blaming you for the affair 5 years later.
> 
> That is simply crazy.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


:smthumbup: Well done, Sir


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> She is right that she cannot be secure with someone who would throw five years away so easily. She needs to accept his decision and move on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Let's be clear, she threw it away


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I think it takes a lot more courage to take her hand and humbly commit to transparency and forgiveness in the marriage moving forward than to run away and let the chips fall on the kids.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He did that already... she crapped on it.


----------



## Marduk

Blossom Leigh said:


> Let's be clear, she threw it away


Let's be clear, to @jld women can do no wrong unless a man made her do it, and it's the man's job to make it all better. 

I'm going to go beat my head into a wall for a while.


----------



## ConanHub

jld said:


> She is right that she cannot be secure with someone who would throw five years away so easily. She needs to accept his decision and move on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She threw the marriage away by cheating, then cheating again and then lying about it for 5 years.

She is an incredibly pathetic and undeserving woman who has learned nothing from her vile choices.

She is no catch or prize.

OP is a faithful and hardworking man who cares deeply for his children and has given many chances for a true screw up to mend her ways.

He is a good man and a catch.

She deserves to be used by morons because she hasn't changed to become remorseful.

Yeah. She is gonna have good men lined up for a chance with her.

Do you even comprehend how delusional and disconnected from reality you are?

You are believing a lie jld. It is apparently extremely important for you to believe it but regardless, it is false.

If you weren't earnest it would be funny.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3putt

marduk said:


> *Let's be clear, to @jld women can do no wrong unless a man made her do it, and it's the man's job to make it all better. *
> 
> I'm going to go beat my head into a wall for a while.


----------



## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> I guess I'll leave you guys to your victory dance - you "saved" another one.


No-one is saved.

It was inevitable. Better it happen sooner than waste another five years.

There are many kinds of compassion. He needs to know that he's worth better than this and how to tell when you're being gaslit. She needs to know that she needs to fix herself and live in reality.

This is the only path that achieves both. 

Who knows? A few years down the road after being separate... Maybe then.


----------



## huanito

Here is my greatest delima so far which are the children. I can honestly say that I am 100% capable of letting her go something I couldn't do before and was being forced to by her actions. I was always looking for reasons to make it work. I can honestly say that if there were no children she would have also been able to let me go in the past easily because of whatever lies that other OM was feeding her. 

Going back to the children we have. I am a us citizen and she is a permenant resident in the us because I sponsored her. all of our immediate family is on the other side of the border in canada. She has never worked and u supported the family all these years while she was a stay at home mom, she is not educated enough to land a good job. She has dropped out of school at a young age and doesn't speak English very well. She couldn't even keep the job she was hired on because of her not being qualified enough. Which is more reason for her to want to be with me because she wouldn't be able to support herself let alone have custody and being able to support the kids on her own. All her time in canada has been just as a visitor since she is not citizen or even a permenant resident and cannot work there either. 

I can honestly say that is her own problem but I must say that I need to address how this will affect the children. Her parents are not in this country or canada they are abroad but she has siblings in canada especially the sister who she is very close to and stayed with all these summers. 

Needless to say say she has no where to go but back to her sister in canada at the moment since she cannot support herself here. 

I told her that with the divorce I completely forgive her and with time everything will hopefully work out for both of us and I wish her nothing but the best since she is the mother of my children. I even offered to support her in anyway I can to get her to stand on her own feet for the fact that she was a stay at home mom and didn't accomplish anything else which is not something I forced her to but had at the same time I had no issues of being the sole breadwinner while she took care of the kids.

Back to the children as a previous poster mentioned I don't think both of us have the ability to care for the kids now and I have thought about getting them a study permit in canada and give custody of them to my parents or siblings in canada while I situate myself. At the moment I can even hold on to the the two oldest who are at a school age but my current finances is not setup for the moment to be able to afford a full time daycare for the youngest.

Having said all this I honestly think we will both be able to move on and eventually find happiness apart but the true losers of this relationship now are the children whom may not be able to be with both parent in the short term and without a clear cut plan of how their future will be affected. This is a work in progress.

I have withheld one piece of information that was asked before and I know what the majority of you would say. The OM is currently engaged and is scheduled to marry this april.


----------



## Marduk

huanito said:


> Here is my greatest delima so far which are the children. I can honestly say that I am 100% capable of letting her go something I couldn't do before and was being forced to by her actions. I was always looking for reasons to make it work. I can honestly say that if there were no children she would have also been able to let me go in the past easily because of whatever lies that other OM was feeding her.
> 
> Going back to the children we have. I am a us citizen and she is a permenant resident in the us because I sponsored her. all of our immediate family is on the other side of the border in canada. She has never worked and u supported the family all these years while she was a stay at home mom, she is not educated enough to land a good job. She has dropped out of school at a young age and doesn't speak English very well. She couldn't even keep the job she was hired on because of her not being qualified enough. Which is more reason for her to want to be with me because she wouldn't be able to support herself let alone have custody and being able to support the kids on her own. All her time in canada has been just as a visitor since she is not citizen or even a permenant resident and cannot work there either.
> 
> I can honestly say that is her own problem but I must say that I need to address how this will affect the children. Her parents are not in this country or canada they are abroad but she has siblings in canada especially the sister who she is very close to and stayed with all these summers.
> 
> Needless to say say she has no where to go but back to her sister in canada at the moment since she cannot support herself here.
> 
> I told her that with the divorce I completely forgive her and with time everything will hopefully work out for both of us and I wish her nothing but the best since she is the mother of my children. I even offered to support her in anyway I can to get her to stand on her own feet for the fact that she was a stay at home mom and didn't accomplish anything else which is not something I forced her to but had at the same time I had no issues of being the sole breadwinner while she took care of the kids.
> 
> Back to the children as a previous poster mentioned I don't think both of us have the ability to care for the kids now and I have thought about getting them a study permit in canada and give custody of them to my parents or siblings in canada while I situate myself. At the moment I can even hold on to the the two oldest who are at a school age but my current finances is not setup for the moment to be able to afford a full time daycare for the youngest.
> 
> Having said all this I honestly think we will both be able to move on and eventually find happiness apart but the true losers of this relationship now are the children whom may not be able to be with both parent in the short term and without a clear cut plan of how their future will be affected. This is a work in progress.
> 
> I have withheld one piece of information that was asked before and I know what the majority of you would say. The OM is currently engaged and is scheduled to marry this april.


Would you be able to both stay in the house and live out of different bedrooms? Or is that off the table?

She needs to get a job, even a part time one. Evenings and weekends while you're at home?


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> She is right that she cannot be secure with someone who would throw five years away so easily. She needs to accept his decision and move on.


Five years that she didn't earn.

Five years that he was deceived into giving, and all because she couldn't be bothered to "trust" him w/ the truth.

You have children; do you teach them to tell the truth ONLY when doing so may foreseeably benefit them? Should they otherwise lie?

If we cannot live by the same principles that we teach our children, what's the point in teaching them at all?

You turn on the tap in your kitchen sink. Dark, disgusting, foul-smelling water pours out. Your neighbors report the same. An angry mob soon descends upon the water company, at which point they're met w/ assurances that the water is fine. Slowly, the mob disperses, and the townsfolk return to their homes.

Weeks pass. Slowly and surely, the water begins to look, smell, and taste better. 

Months pass. No one remembers anything about the obviously-tainted water.

Years pass. There's a spike in cancer rates among the elderly and the young. Otherwise healthy young women are experiencing alarming rates of infertility, and young adults of both genders are experiencing depression. The local medical community is dumbfounded.

Newspaper articles are written. A whistleblower from the water company comes forth with supporting documentation claiming that an inadvertent yet toxic release of chemicals normally used for maintenance into the local water supply is to blame for everything.

But hey -- the water's clean NOW... right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

OliviaG said:


> I guess I'll leave you guys to your victory dance - you "saved" another one.


There's no victory here, and no one is dancing.

No one worth watching, anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> I guess I'll leave you guys to your victory dance - you "saved" another one.


Honestly, if he swept this under the rug onto the increasingly large pile of dirt that's already there... Would that have been a victory to you?

When he finds another lie (because there's always another lie), should he do it again? And again? 

Because of the kids, and because she's trying to be better?


----------



## GusPolinski

huanito said:


> I have withheld one piece of information that was asked before and I know what the majority of you would say. The OM is currently engaged and is scheduled to marry this april.


Expose the affair to his fiancée. She deserves to know that your STBX may soon be sniffing around.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

GusPolinski said:


> Expose the affair to his fiancée. She deserves to know that your STBX may soon be sniffing around.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was going to say the same.

She's an unfaithful woman with a repetitive history of infidelity and no means of support.

She'll be looking for someone to put her claws into quickly. Probably started in the days before she 'confessed.'


----------



## jld

The fact that he is willing to send his children away to live with relatives tells me all I need to know about him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

huanito said:


> Here is my greatest delima so far which are the children. I can honestly say that I am 100% capable of letting her go something I couldn't do before and was being forced to by her actions. I was always looking for reasons to make it work. I can honestly say that if there were no children she would have also been able to let me go in the past easily because of whatever lies that other OM was feeding her.
> 
> Going back to the children we have. I am a us citizen and she is a permenant resident in the us because I sponsored her. all of our immediate family is on the other side of the border in canada. She has never worked and u supported the family all these years while she was a stay at home mom, she is not educated enough to land a good job. She has dropped out of school at a young age and doesn't speak English very well. She couldn't even keep the job she was hired on because of her not being qualified enough. Which is more reason for her to want to be with me because she wouldn't be able to support herself let alone have custody and being able to support the kids on her own. All her time in canada has been just as a visitor since she is not citizen or even a permenant resident and cannot work there either.
> 
> I can honestly say that is her own problem but I must say that I need to address how this will affect the children. Her parents are not in this country or canada they are abroad but she has siblings in canada especially the sister who she is very close to and stayed with all these summers.
> 
> Needless to say say she has no where to go but back to her sister in canada at the moment since she cannot support herself here.
> 
> I told her that with the divorce I completely forgive her and with time everything will hopefully work out for both of us and I wish her nothing but the best since she is the mother of my children. I even offered to support her in anyway I can to get her to stand on her own feet for the fact that she was a stay at home mom and didn't accomplish anything else which is not something I forced her to but had at the same time I had no issues of being the sole breadwinner while she took care of the kids.
> 
> Back to the children as a previous poster mentioned I don't think both of us have the ability to care for the kids now and I have thought about getting them a study permit in canada and give custody of them to my parents or siblings in canada while I situate myself. At the moment I can even hold on to the the two oldest who are at a school age but my current finances is not setup for the moment to be able to afford a full time daycare for the youngest.
> 
> Having said all this I honestly think we will both be able to move on and eventually find happiness apart but the true losers of this relationship now are the children whom may not be able to be with both parent in the short term and without a clear cut plan of how their future will be affected. This is a work in progress.
> 
> I have withheld one piece of information that was asked before and I know what the majority of you would say. The OM is currently engaged and is scheduled to marry this april.


How much do you feel she needs to earn for you both you live separately to keep the kids out of poverty?


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> The fact that he is willing to send his children away to live with relatives tells me all I need to know about him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You keep judging cause you know best right. 

What a despicable post.


----------



## bandit.45

OP's children will be better off knowing that their father stood for something larger and bigger than just his family: the truth. 

I agree parents should protect them from the dangers the outside world holds.. but not from the truth about what is happening in their own family. 

Some of you on TAM don't give children enough credit. Children are resilient and brave and strong. Children have an amazing and time-proven ability to bounce back and become stronger from hardship. As long as OP's children they know they are being told the truth and that they are unconditionally loved by both he and his WW, they will get through this.

I have an issue with some posters here who get all bleeding-heart, boo-hoo drama when discussing the effects of divorce on children. Children have fought wars and saved countries from annihilation. They have rebuilt destroyed cities. They have banded together to take care of each other after wars have destroyed their homes and killed their parents. Children growing up in the midst of chaos have grown up to be world leaders, industry moguls, scientists, researchers... 

And today's kids? They are so far advanced beyond the kid that I was forty years ago...so much more hip and in the know than I ever was....


----------



## Blonde

huanito said:


> Here is my greatest delima so far which are the children. ...
> 
> Needless to say say she has no where to go but back to her sister in canada at the moment since she cannot support herself here.
> 
> ...
> Back to the children as a previous poster mentioned I don't think both of us have the ability to care for the kids now and I have thought about getting them a study permit in canada and give custody of them to my parents or siblings in canada while I situate myself. At the moment I can even hold on to the the two oldest who are at a school age but my current finances is not setup for the moment to be able to afford a full time daycare for the youngest.


Haven't followed your story but just want to point out that in your new country of the US *you* do not have the right to unilaterally take children away from their mother and send them to your relatives in another country.

Your W has permission to be here in the US and not in Canada, so she should stay here with her children. Clearly she should have custody since you do not have the time to take care of them and would have them in daycare. 

You will pay child support and I'm quite sure she will qualify for lots and lots of public assistance.

Go ahead and split if that is what you want, but plan on your W having custody and Uncle Sam taking a piece out of your paycheck for child support.

(and assuming you are too poor to support two households, those of us who are US taxpayers will be ponying up for her food stamps, section 8, TANF, Medicaid, and etc...)


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blossom Leigh said:


> How much do you feel she needs to earn for you both you live separately to keep the kids out of poverty?


And how old are the kids?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

OliviaG said:


> Actually, that is completely false. I guess you have never read about the largest long term study on divorce and it's effects on children? I think it went on for ~25 years. Apparently the only losers in a divorce are the children and they are not very resilient at all. Oh sure, they'll survive. But they never do as well as their peers in terms of education, career success, and their own marriages. Their happiness and success in life in general is marred for the rest of their lives.
> 
> This was found true for all marriages however dysfunctional with one exception: marriages that involve physical abuse.


Guess his wife should have thought about that when she spread her legs for another man.


----------



## bandit.45

OliviaG said:


> Actually, that is completely false. I guess you have never read about the largest long term study on divorce and it's effects on children? I think it went on for ~25 years. Apparently the only losers in a divorce are the children and they are not very resilient at all. Oh sure, they'll survive. But they never do as well as their peers in terms of education, career success, and their own marriages. Their happiness and success in life in general is marred for the rest of their lives.
> 
> This was found true for all marriages however dysfunctional with one exception: marriages that involve physical abuse.


Hmm....I prefer empirical evidence. I am surrounded by coworkers, all of them very successful and erudite and good at what they do, and probably half of them come from divorced homes. Most of my personal friends outside of work, who are kids of divorce, have done very well for themselves. Are they wounded and scarred? Yep. But they are strong and wise also.


----------



## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> I have learned something from this thread and here's what it is: if you ever have an affair, and then end it, realizing that it was the biggest mistake of your life, the only hope you have of saving your family is to make absolutely sure that your spouse never finds out about it. The truth is not your friend.
> 
> I used to think otherwise.


Her highest odds of reconciliation would have been to tell the whole truth from the beginning.

Who do you think destroyed the marriage?

And why do you think their family needs to be 'saved?' I was raised just fine in a divorced home. My biological father had all kinds of problems, and staying together would have totally sunk the family. The day my mother left him with us is the day she saved us.

Should a family stay together for purely economic reasons? Tolerate infidelity, emotional abuse, long-term gas lighting...

And that's a healthy home?


----------



## bandit.45

OliviaG said:


> I have learned something from this thread and here's what it is: if you ever have an affair, and then end it, realizing that it was the biggest mistake of your life, the only hope you have of saving your family is to make absolutely sure that your spouse never finds out about it. *The truth is not your friend.*
> 
> I used to think otherwise.


The truth exists whether or not it is confessed. It has an ugly way of surfacing, by itself, when you least expect it, through channels you never thought existed.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

OliviaG said:


> Yes, she should have. She should have thought of it before confessing to it as well, from the look of things.


Sure and live a lie... great role model for the kids...


----------



## Blossom Leigh

OliviaG said:


> Can you prove that? It looks to me like her highest odds of reconciliation would have been to have taken the truth to her grave.


The falsehood in your statement is assuming it was ever an authentic reconciliation. Not all reconciliations are not created equal just because they "appear" the same on the outside.


----------



## bandit.45

OliviaG said:


> You prefer empirical evidence to what? The study was not a thought experiment.


Studies use formulas and statistics to skew the results any way the "researcher" wants the results to show. I trust surveys and research reports about as much as I trust Fast Freddy selling me a Rolex from his van down by the river.


----------



## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> Yes, she should have. She should have thought of it before confessing to it as well, from the look of things.


That is a spurious arguement and based purely on emotion, not reason.

The fact is, he reconciled under false pretences.

The fact is, if she hadn't confessed it, he might have discovered it another way.

The fact is, if she's capable of having her repetitive affair, separation, and lying for five years -- her odds of doing it again are high.

The fact is, once she started this path, the marriage was going to end eventually.

Shifting the blame from her to him because after five years she told (likely a small part of) the truth is a fallacy. 

You seem to also be missing the largest fact of all: he didn't cause the marriage to be over, she did. And it was over before they reconciled.


----------



## ButtPunch

OliviaG said:


> This was not a survey. But I won't bother you with the details since opinions are what really matters when making decisions that profoundly affect the lives of children.


I have seen studies that show staying in dysfunctional home with two parents has a worse impact on the kids than a divorce does.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

OliviaG said:


> This was not a survey. But I won't bother you with the details since opinions are what really matters when making decisions that profoundly affect the lives of children.


Again, she should have thought about that before she had an affair.

This was the risk she took when she made that decision.

Reconciliations take 2 to 5 years IF they are authentic....

So they were just on the tail end of that time frame and he finds out, it wasn't authentic. 

He was taken all the way back. 

She chose to have an affair.

She chose to hide the truth.

She chose to put this marriage at risk and leave it at risk.


----------



## Tron

I've learned something from this thread, from many of the other threads and from personal experience that when you are found out, it's best to go ahead and fess up and stop torturing your spouse with lies. Get the truth out there, get it over and done with and start the healing process. 

You never know if the infidelity is truly a deal-breaker. And while the relationship may never be the same, you ultimately may wind up with a better relationship than you had. You may wind up divorced.

In this case, what the OP thought he had for the last 5 years was based on lies. A critical part of marriage is truth and honesty. We espouse that every day on here. 

It is how we know who we are with. The OP didn't really know who he was with before. Now he does. He has 5 years of proof now that shows him who she was.


----------



## Blonde

Blossom Leigh said:


> And how old are the kids?


One of them is a preschooler



> At the moment I can even hold on to the the two oldest who are at a school age but my current finances is not setup for the moment to be able to afford a* full time daycare for the youngest.*





huanito said:


> I am a us citizen and she is a permenant resident in the us
> ...
> She has never worked and I supported the family all these years while she was a stay at home mom, she is not educated enough to land a good job. She has dropped out of school at a young age and doesn't speak English very well.
> ...
> All her time in canada has been just as a visitor since she is not citizen or even a permenant resident and cannot work there either.
> ...
> Which is more reason for her to want to be with me because *she wouldn't be able to support herself let alone have custody and being able to support the kids on her own*


^^There's where you are wrong. This is America not the old country

She is a SAHM with a preschooler. 
She WILL get custody
She WILL get child support

And if you are as poor as you sound (can't afford daycare), she WILL get various welfare benefits and be able to support herself and the kids just fine.

So she will not be financially punished and have her children taken away by this divorce. You can get that notion out of your mind.

Look at the bright side. You don't have to ship them to Canada. You can have visitation every other weekend. :smile2:


----------



## Blossom Leigh

OliviaG said:


> What was unique about this study is that it followed so many kids for so many years. Apparently it is the only study of its kind. And it didn't rely on self-reporting or parental reporting, it relied on actual interviews with the children themselves over the years and their grades, level of academic achievement, career choices, salaries, marriages and their own divorce rates, among other things.


Guess she should have thought about that.... you know the rest.


----------



## michzz

I only have a sample of "1"-- my own marriage ending in divorce after 32 years.

My wife cheated when we were engaged and i didn't find out until 16 years later when she was cheating again and I got her to admit that she slept with some guy from the apartments she managed on weekends while i watched out two small children at home.

It turns out that all her tearful entreaties to give her another chance were just a smokescreen for her to continue cheating. Which she did for another 8 years at least.

during that time she was acting like she was not cheating, that she had made a huge mistake and wanted to "prove it" to me.

Well, for at least the next 8 years after the reveal, she was screwing the other guy all the time. Many time first him at work, then me later.

I just didn't know it.

So we get from 1994 out to 2008 when the actual truth is revealed, that her affair was very long term.

I get this information because i bluffed her into giving me his name and how long, saying I already knew.

The shock of it all was immense--actually to us both. I had thought I was finding the truth of a week or months-long affair, not years and years!

Finally getting outed was extremely stressful to her since she had carefully constructed this whole persona of a "good woman" to me, our kids, the extended family, friends and neighbors.

We divorced over the deceit, the false recovery.

Our kids were grown, but in late teens and early 20s when they got to find out how disappointing their mom is. 

Would it have been better for them, for me, for "her" if I'd never revealed any of her sick behavior?

The only one who would have benefited is my cheating ex-wife. 

She would have gotten away with it with no consequences, except on her blackened soul.

Move forward from 2012. Our kids are doing great, I'm doing great (except for the throat cancer she gave me via HPV infection), I've remarried and the cancer seems to be clearing up after treatment.

Her? As far as I know she doesn't date, lives in exile (self-imposed) 1500 miles away from her kids.

She has made herself out to be some kind of new age energy healer and wastes her support checks on crystal healing training, etc.

She is very careful to not let anyone she socializes with now meet anyone from her past, including her kids.

My life, on the other hand, is an open book to anyone I meet. Not the gory details, necessarily, but I don't hide what has happened to get me to this point in time. She hides everything. The truth is too threatening to her.


----------



## Be smart

This is IMPORTANT. People forget about this. OM is getting married so she is feeling betrayed by him and she decided to tell you about PA. 


Your story really hurts my friend. You are really a big man for living like this for FIVE years. 

Your wife is still lying to you and still blaming you for her Affair. First it was because you work so hard but she NEVER had a job in her life.

Now she blames you because you wanted to Divorce her so she was "free" to have sex with him AGAIN.

Think about this one-she was going there every single summer so that is a lot of opportunities for her to continue Affair.

Divorce her and find yourself a better woman. You really deserve it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

OliviaG said:


> Right. Nobody's arguing with you on that point.


Then everyone needs to stop shaming this man for choosing to not live his life with a woman who has demonstrated she has not changed her manipulative ways starting with an affair five years ago all the way up to today.


----------



## Tron

OliviaG said:


> Can you prove that? It looks to me like her highest odds of reconciliation would have been to have taken the truth to her grave.


Why don't you go ask @river rat how he feels about that?

His W gaslighted him for years and tried to take it to her grave. 

He knew in his gut that she was lying. The deception and secrets most certainly destroyed the marriage. Sadly, it all came apart just when they were supposed to enjoy their golden years together.


----------



## GusPolinski

OliviaG said:


> Can you prove that? It looks to me like her highest odds of reconciliation would have been to have taken the truth to her grave.


That would've been the same reconciliation that they've been living for the past 5 years.

Which is to say that it wouldn't have been a reconciliation at all.

You can't reconcile a truth that hasn't been disclosed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> Can you prove that? It looks to me like her highest odds of reconciliation would have been to have taken the truth to her grave.


Logical fallacy. She
a) couldn't live with it
b) couldn't 100% guarantee he wouldn't find out
c) couldn't 100% guarantee it didn't happen again because they couldn't have worked on the right problems in the marriage without knowing about them.

From webmd the top 3 things to reconcile after an affair:


> 1."You have to stop the affair, first and foremost," says Jamie Turndorf, PhD, a couples therapist in New York. "You can't reinvest in the marriage if you have one foot out the door."
> 2. Remember that there will be ups and downs after an affair. "The road to recovery after an affair is jagged, and that is completely normal," says Weiner-Davis.
> 3. "The person who had the affair needs to be willing to discuss what happened openly if the betrayed spouse wants to do that," says Weiner-Davis.


Overcoming Infidelity

From affaircare, #1 is no contact and #2 is transparancy.
Reconciliation | AFFAIRCARE

surviving infidelity says that being honest about what happened is #1 and answering any questions is #2.
SurvivingInfidelity.com - What the Wayward Spouse / Betrayed Spouse Must Do to Reconcile

I could go on and on. Including my own MC's stipulation for even working with us on reconciling:
#1 no contact with the AP
#2 the full details of what happened have been or will be disclosed honestly
#3 we both deal with, and accept, our own ****

There is only one way out of an affair. It's built on lies. You have to be able to tell the truth.


----------



## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> Marduk, those are opinions, not facts.


It's an interesting position where one can't tell the difference, or one is in a place where they're not allowed to know what reality is.

Because that was her position for five years. Let me control the facts so you make decisions that suit me.

Reality is that which doesn't go away when you stop believing in it.

The facts I've stated are just that.


----------



## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> Nobody is shaming him that I've noticed. I'm certainly not shaming him.


Baloney.


----------



## Tron

marduk said:


> Logical fallacy. She
> a) couldn't live with it
> b) couldn't 100% guarantee he wouldn't find out
> c) couldn't 100% guarantee it didn't happen again because they couldn't have worked on the right problems in the marriage without knowing about them.
> 
> From webmd the top 3 things to reconcile after an affair:
> 
> Overcoming Infidelity
> 
> From affaircare, #1 is no contact and #2 is transparancy.
> Reconciliation | AFFAIRCARE
> 
> surviving infidelity says that being honest about what happened is #1 and answering any questions is #2.
> SurvivingInfidelity.com - What the Wayward Spouse / Betrayed Spouse Must Do to Reconcile
> 
> I could go on and on. Including my own MC's stipulation for even working with us on reconciling:
> #1 no contact with the AP
> #2 the full details of what happened have been or will be disclosed honestly
> #3 we both deal with, and accept, our own ****
> 
> There is only one way out of an affair. It's built on lies. You have to be able to tell the truth.


I am living proof of this Olivia. 

There is no other way IMO.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

OliviaG said:


> Nobody is shaming him that I've noticed. I'm certainly not shaming him.


You're kidding me right? You actually think you weren't shaming him... :slap:


----------



## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> I'm not convinced it was a false reconciliation. I think if she was truly remorseful and had committed to her husband 100% (which he said over and over that she had and he had no doubts that she had), then it was a true reconciliation.
> 
> The received wisdom here is that all the facts need to be on the table before a reconciliation can truly happen. I don't see any evidence of that. I see evidence of the opposite.


All I see evidence of is someone that thinks fixing one lie with another is an acceptible long-term strategy.

Good luck with that one.

How exactly can you reconcile again and fix the problems in the marriage if they're not on the table to be fixed?

Do the unicorns just drop the fixes out of their ass while they fly by through sparkly rainbows?


----------



## GusPolinski

OliviaG said:


> I'm not convinced it was a false reconciliation. I think if she was truly remorseful and had committed to her husband 100% (which he said over and over that she had and he had no doubts that she had), then it was a true reconciliation.


Any reconciliation initiated w/ anything less than the absolute truth -- which will include each and every detail that the BS requests -- is a false reconciliation.

Period.



OliviaG said:


> The received wisdom here is that all the facts need to be on the table before a reconciliation can truly happen. I don't see any evidence of that. I see evidence of the opposite.


Then you see it wrong.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

oliviag said:


> i'm not convinced it was a false reconciliation. I think if she was truly remorseful and had committed to her husband 100% (which he said over and over that she had and he had no doubts that she had), then it was a true reconciliation.
> 
> The received wisdom here is that all the facts need to be on the table before a reconciliation can truly happen. I don't see any evidence of that. I see evidence of the opposite.


but she was lying to his face from the get go

dang....Gus beat me to it


----------



## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> Did you reconcile with your spouse after she had a PA and confessed?


I did with an EA. Does that count?

Do you want to know how hard it was to find lie after lie when she tried to dole out what she thought she could say and have me not leave?

Do you care to know that to this day the hardest part about the whole thing is knowing she could lie to me over and over again like that and swear that was the whole truth?


----------



## michzz

The evidence points to the best possible outcome -- for the betrayed spouse -- by having the truth on the table.

The best possible outcome for the BS is an informed one. Choosing to part/divorce or to stay/reconcile with the person who cheated.

By far, most men will decide to divorce. But don't forget, some of us TRIED to reconcile, when we did not know the enormity of what really happened.

For me, I could tough out a one-time thing. Shoot, i was prepared to deal with a short-term, month or two, affair. But cheating for years and deceiving for more years? That is just too much to swallow.

A wife capable of that does not love you--even as they try to convince you with tears, cooking meals, etc.

OR their concept of "love" is just too foreign for me to deal with. She was just another infatuation away from doing it again. No thanks!

I've come to the conclusion that it really is not the point of the truth or of reconciliation to have the "best' conclusion for the cheating spouse. They gave away that option by cheating. if by "best" you mean "easiest and most selfishly satisfying option.

If by "best" you mean, attempting to fix the evil they wrought on their spouse? You would get no argument from me. But fixing that evil means being truthful. So there you go.


----------



## Tron

OliviaG said:


> Did you reconcile with your spouse after she had a PA and confessed?


She reconciled with me.

And I'd like to follow up that I truly believe that if I had spread the lies out over 5 years, instead of 3 weeks, I wouldn't be married today. 

I absolutely know this to be true. Not as fact but in my gut. And not because my W has said anything to me to that effect, but because I know what the lies would do to her.


----------



## TaDor

OliviaG said:


> I agree that it would have been better to tell the truth right away, but the OP said that 5 years ago he suspected he didn't get the full truth. So he decided to reconcile *knowing* that he may not have the full truth and suspecting that he didn't.


Sometimes we make bad choices, for good or stupid reasons.

My WW followed standard co-worker affair script, went through false R for about 4 weeks, things blew up badly for us - mostly for her as i made everything very public to all our friends and family. Legal action against AP... going to counseling. Its taken her a while to the AP as the waste-of-life turd he is.

She's far more open today than ever, I have full access to her Gmail/FB accounts, phone. We talk a lot more.

I told her today while driving "telling me or sharing me the truth is not a trigger. It DOES heal me to KNOW what the truth is." We both want to make things work.

She's telling me things I didn't know about as well, answering questions properly this time - that were ho-hum before.

I also share my thoughts with her, and that she mis-understood some of my actions and words. An example was having ED for several months because of another emotional issue - for which she thought - I wasn't interested in her, but other women. Because we didn't communicate with each other properly about my issues.

By all means, she's not at 100% fault for our other problems. But the affair of course - is.

We did things today as a couple, that were new (even non sexual things) that is kind of like dating all over-again. Because *WE* are talking more about our deep fears and issues that we never had before.

Telling my Wayward "Truth shall set you free" type of thing allowed her to open up to me. I don't set consequences for the truth at this time. But if she lies, then there are CONSEQUENCES.

Hence, for this thread. Its important to know WHY the OP's wife had the anxiety attacks and that she opened up just now, after 5 years. When she could have not said anything... the OP would never have known.

Statistically, most affairs come and go without the BS ever knowing it. or used to anyway. because the affairs of today are different from those 20+ years ago.


----------



## Marduk

Last time I checked, lying and gaslighting in intimate relationships were two of the hallmarks of psychological abuse.


----------



## huanito

I see some of you are throwing judgements around as if I am sending my kids away but I would like to clear a few things.

I am not poor and am actually doing very good for myself. She doesn't want to stay here and be an single parent in fact she told me that she will give me the full custody of the kids and that there is no way around it. She even said that her sister has already 8 children and she can't burden them with hers. The kids are my responsibility.

She never liked being in the us and wanted to be close to her sister and family. I know for a fact she would rather stay with her sister and possibly find a future husband in canada and possibly settle there or do whatever possible to get close to her family for support since she feel lonely here.

As for me saying to give custody of the kids to parents or siblings in canada in no way a long term plan more like a short term plan while I situate myself since I am in a big mess right now and feel they will be in a better home now for the time being while I make some adjustments. In time I am absolutely confident that the kids will eventually be with me and that's what I want to work on unless she settles down and is able to take care of them then I don't mind if she want custody of the kids and pay child support because she never gave me any indications in the past that she is a horrible mother in fact she has been an excellent mother.


----------



## Marduk

huanito said:


> I see some of you are throwing judgements around as if I am sending my kids away but I would like to clear a few things.
> 
> I am not poor and am actually doing very good for myself. She doesn't want to stay here and be an single parent in fact she told me that she will give me the full custody of the kids and that there is no way around it. She even said that her sister has already 8 children and she can't burden them with hers. The kids are my responsibility.


There you have it.

Take the kids and run.



> She never liked being in the us and wanted to be close to her sister and family. I know for a fact she would rather stay with her sister and possibly find a future husband in canada and possibly settle there or do whatever possible to get close to her family for support since she feel lonely here.


Hey, keep her out of Canada! I like it here.



> As for me saying to give custody of the kids to parents or siblings in canada in no way a long term plan more like a short term plan while I situate myself since I am in a big mess right now and feel they will be in a better home now for the time being while I make some adjustments. In time I am absolutely confident that the kids will eventually be with me and that's what I want to work on unless she settles down and is able to take care of them then I don't mind if she want custody of the kids and pay child support because she never gave me any indications in the past that she is a horrible mother in fact she has been an excellent mother.


I wouldn't do it. I'd seek out every option that wasn't that.

Any way you can ask a family member to come live with you for a while until you get sorted?


----------



## huanito

I also agree that she is regretting telling the truth and even at times tried to go back on her word. I strongly feel that she has learned nothing aside from what some of you have stated that if she had not finally come out with the truth we wouldn't be divorcing right now and it seems to be she is currently regretting that more then anything else. I am done playing the Devils advocate and making excuses for the things she has done more then she actually was by covering the truth and telling me lies. She was lying to me and I was lying to myself.


----------



## Marduk

huanito said:


> I also agree that she is regretting telling the truth and even at times tried to go back on her word. I strongly feel that she has learned nothing aside from what some of you have stated that if she had not finally come out with the truth we wouldn't be divorcing right now and it seems to be she is currently regretting that more then anything else. I am done playing the Devils advocate and making excuses for the things she has done more then she actually was by covering the truth and telling me lies. She was lying to me and I was lying to myself.


I guarantee she's told you only a small fraction of the truth. 

Enough to relieve her guilt and no more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## huanito

Obviously I am not set on what do just yet as long as the children are concerned I'm trying to explore every option. All my family have kids of there own over there that they cannot just bring here with them to help me out.another option is to keep the school age children and have the youngest stay with family until I can make arrangement for him as well for a day care but I am also emotionally exhausted, depressed and miserable and although finally see some courage to get out I need some time to recover myself and I don't want my kids to suffer with me. I'm just exploring all options.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

huanito said:


> I also agree that she is regretting telling the truth and even at times tried to go back on her word. I strongly feel that she has learned nothing aside from what some of you have stated that if she had not finally come out with the truth we wouldn't be divorcing right now and it seems to be she is currently regretting that more then anything else. I am done playing the Devils advocate and making excuses for the things she has done more then she actually was by covering the truth and telling me lies. She was lying to me and I was lying to myself.


Regretting telling the truth is a huge indicator that she is not remorseful for the original offense. She should be regretting the affair, not telling the truth. AND ESPECIALLY not blameshifting.


----------



## GusPolinski

Blossom Leigh said:


> Regretting telling the truth is a huge indicator that she is not remorseful for the original offense. She should be regretting the affair, not telling the truth. AND ESPECIALLY not blameshifting.


Exactly correct.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soccermom2three

Are you ****ing kidding me? You are going divorce their mother and then send your kids away to some far away relative? What is this, some old Charles ****ens story? What century do you live in? 

Your children will never forgive you.


----------



## soccermom2three

Blossom Leigh said:


> Guess his wife should have thought about that when she spread her legs for another man.


So it's okay to punish the children? Do you think before you post something so vile? My god, what is happening here? I've never seen such stupid, crazy posts.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

soccermom2three said:


> So it's okay to punish the children? Do you think before you post something so vile? My god, what is happening here? I've never seen such stupid, crazy posts.


Your reaction is quite interesting... 

She wasn't thinking how her actions would eventually punish her children. So, yes... You are correct, what she did WAS vile. Blew her family up. Thats a atupid, crazy thing to do.


----------



## 3putt

Oh, goody, another one of the jld posse arrives.


----------



## huanito

Well it's happening and we are seperating and I'll most likely be moving her out tomorrow to her sisters house (her choice). After all that happened I am having extreme guilt over this because of the children. They have a mother and a father who love them dearly but are unfortunately in a poisonous relationship. Although she is the guilty one it sucks that I am always left to make the final move. My kids are 6, 5 and 2 and very attached to both parent. I'm thinking of keeping them here but their mother will be far away. (13 hours drive) so they will definatley loose the privillage of seeing both parents often. And I'm sure I will get the daunting question of "when are we going to pick up mommy" I'm in tears but I'm very afraid of looking back and reconsidering hence I may be here in another 5 years regretting this.


----------



## soccermom2three

Blossom Leigh said:


> Your reaction is quite interesting...
> 
> She wasn't thinking how her actions would eventually punish her children. So, yes... You are correct, what she did WAS vile. Blew her family up. Thats a atupid, crazy thing to do.


My brother in law is going through a divorce because his wife cheated. Not once did he even think of punishing their children by talking trash or taking them away from her. That's how mature, sane people conduct themselves.


----------



## TAMAT

huanito,

I don't know what to say except that I really feel for you, there are sometimes no good choices, all of the choices are bad and it can be difficult to tell which is the worst.

Tamat


----------



## soccermom2three

huanito said:


> Well it's happening and we are seperating and I'll most likely be moving her out tomorrow to her sisters house (her choice). After all that happened I am having extreme guilt over this because of the children. They have a mother and a father who love them dearly but are unfortunately in a poisonous relationship. Although she is the guilty one it sucks that I am always left to make the final move. My kids are 6, 5 and 2 and very attached to both parent. I'm thinking of keeping them here but their mother will be far away. (13 hours drive) so they will definatley loose the privillage of seeing both parents often. And I'm sure I will get the daunting question of "when are we going to pick up mommy" I'm in tears but I'm very afraid of looking back and reconsidering hence I may be here in another 5 years regretting this.


Why does she have to move 13 hours away? Why would you put your children through pain of separation from their mother? You sound very vindictive. Its unfortunate the advice you've received here.


----------



## Tron

Moving your W away from the kids isn't the answer either amigo.


----------



## ConanHub

soccermom2three said:


> Are you ****ing kidding me? You are going divorce their mother and then send your kids away to some far away relative? What is this, some old Charles ****ens story? What century do you live in?
> 
> Your children will never forgive you.


I think he is just thinking through some ideas to get through this.

He is still shell shocked I'm sure.

He cares a great deal for his children and I'm sure he won't make decisions without fully considering how they will affect the kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

soccermom2three said:


> Why does she have to move 13 hours away? Why would you put your children through pain of separation from their mother? You sound very vindictive. Its unfortunate the advice you've received here.


Well I guess you missed the part where the woman is making that choice, not OP so maybe you should redirect your vitriol unless facts don't matter.

She doesn't want to stay. She wants to go where the kids can't right now.

Not OP's decision. This is another one on the WW who has shown such brilliant care of her family so far.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## G.J.

huanito said:


> but I am also emotionally exhausted, depressed and miserable and although finally see some courage to get out I need some time to recover myself and I don't want my kids to suffer with me. I'm just exploring all options.


Just...take your time there's... no clock on you


----------



## sparrow555

huanito said:


> My decision is still to divorce her but she had been pleading with me since I told her my decision. I would like to share some of her feelings towards this.
> 
> She is very sad and has been begging me not divorce her. She told me that she will give me a 100% freedom (not meaning I can cheat but I can go back to working my second part job which I stopped to stay with her and help her cope with her anxiety) she said I can monitor her every movement and all she wants in return is to remain my wife and raise our kids together.
> 
> She said that although she did me wrong she tried to correct her wrong by trying to do everything right the last 5 years and it has completely broken her heart that I was so quick to call and insist divorce. She says she doesn't know how she could feel secure in this marriage knowing how quick I am able to let her go yet she doesn't want to be with anyone but me and that I will always be in her heart.
> 
> Here is my reply. I gave you clear warning in the past that honesty is a must for this relationship to work and even though everyone makes mistakes in order for this to be a healthy relationship you need to own up to everything and tell me the truth yet you decided to keep the complete truth hidden from me and the fact that you say I will always stay in your heart, I have heard that before. You told me that when we seperated in 2012 yet you had no problem keeping the affair going.
> 
> Her reply was from 2011 to 2012 she didn't do me wrong at all and I was completely in the wrong for separating with her just because I was being paranoid about what happened and what may still have been happening. Had I not seperated with her he wouldn't have been back in the picture.
> 
> I told her that she is telling me I'm quick to letting her go but yet she doesn't see that she was quick to going back to the affair because I had a hard time coping with what she did to me. If she really loved me she would be sobbing and regretting what she did to me instead of just putting a time frame on how long it should take me to get over it before she decides to go back and sleep with him again because I was taking too long in letting go of the past.
> 
> I feel like I am to blame for everything. Had I not been quick to reconcile with her or wanting to just work out the marriage even though I was convinced all the truth was not being told we wouldn't be hear.
> 
> Yes I knew that there was likely a PA in the summer of 2011 but it never came to my mind that she would do it in 2012 after we seperated. After a year of torture. Happiness and sadness and at times sobbing together she was quick to cross me off as soon as we seperated.




People giving advice that he should R based on the assumption that she was 100% remorse these last 5 years. should read this post.

Not only was she indulging in grade A top tier emotional manipulation, she also feels entitled to her affair.


----------



## GusPolinski

sparrow555 said:


> People giving advice that he should R based on the assumption that she was 100% remorse these last 5 years. should read this post.
> 
> Not only was she indulging in grade A top tier emotional manipulation, she also feels entitled to her affair.


I find it especially amusing that she's willing to allow him to go back to working a _second_ part-time job.


----------



## sparrow555

marduk said:


> Let's be clear, to @jld women can do no wrong unless a man made her do it, and it's the man's job to make it all better.
> 
> I'm going to go beat my head into a wall for a while.


Put her on the ignore list. It helps reduce the spike in blood pressure after you read some of her posts.


----------



## karole

Your kids come FIRST!!! Period!!


----------



## Happilymarried25

This thread is getting me angry. That you would keep your children away from their Mother is wrong. Stop thinking about your ego and think about what is best for your children. Doing this will damage them. They are going from being with their Mom full time to never seeing her. For the past 5 years you lived with, loved, made love and had a baby with your wife knowing she cheated on you. Then she tells you (which was a BIG mistake on her part) and now you want to break up your family. She has been a great wife and Mom for 5 years. You had forgiven her. You should stay married and stay a family.


----------



## sparrow555

OliviaG said:


> Can you prove that? It looks to me like her highest odds of reconciliation would have been to have taken the truth to her grave.


 @jld found a new friend. 


So, are you implying that if you cheat on someone, you shouldn't tell them ? Would the same logic apply to OP too ? Why should he not start cheating on his wife ? After all, according to your logic, as long as she does not know, it should be fine. 


You went from passive aggressive posts(victory dance post) to straight up false attacks.


----------



## 3putt

sparrow555 said:


> Put her on the ignore list. It helps reduce the spike in blood pressure after you read some of her posts.


Nah, I find her and her posse kind of amusing, in a juvenile kind of way. Sad, of course, but still, slightly amusing.

I'll give them credit, though. They are persistent.


----------



## ConanHub

karole said:


> Your kids come FIRST!!! Period!!


Absolutely agree but what options are available to him?

He can't make decisions for his stbxw.

She doesn't want what is best for them so he is left to pick up the pieces as best as he can.

She doesn't have to move that far away. She wants to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## G.J.

huanito said:


> Well it's happening and we are seperating and I'll most likely be moving her out tomorrow to her sisters house (her choice). .


It seems to me its happening way to fast huanito

Would it not be better as you have said to explore ALL OPTIONS carefully and spending time when emotions have calmed down

Some have pointed out that there are children involved and there are ways to separate in a slower way that minimizes the upset to the children

She will do what you say with what you have posted so you can slow things down..... maybe ?


----------



## GusPolinski

I'd point out the following to anyone and everyone lambasting this guy for choosing to divorce a woman that has kept him in her thrall w/ lies -- and, therefore, in a false reconciliation -- for the past 5 years...

_His wife is *choosing* to leave the family home *of her own accord*._


----------



## sparrow555

> I have withheld one piece of information that was asked before and I know what the majority of you would say. The OM is currently engaged and is scheduled to marry this april.


I think I found the source of her panic attacks. 

And her over eagerness to move to Canada to her sister place, even giving up the custody... if OM still lives there, i think she is trying to save the relationship with him.


Can I ask OP, what country is she from if she cannot speak English ?




GusPolinski said:


> I find it especially amusing that she's willing to allow him to go back to working a _second_ part-time job.



I think he is going to get f*cked alimony wise if she no workable skills and uneducated.

Meet an attorney and get an estimate on the costs of a divorce.


----------



## ConanHub

GusPolinski said:


> I'd point out the following to anyone and everyone lambasting this guy for choosing to divorce a woman that has kept him in her thrall w/ lies -- and, therefore, in a false reconciliation -- for the past 5 years...
> 
> _His wife is *choosing* to leave the family home *of her own accord*._


You trying to state facts too?

Let me know how that works...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718

huanito said:


> At this point it doesn't matter how remorseful she is. For those of you who followed my story from the beginning I caught her sexting him after the summer of 2011 and after going through a horrible year we split up on the summer of 2012 for about 5 month details are on a prior post. During this time she spent the 5 month in canada with family while I took custody of the both children here in the states.
> 
> Now after having some discussion and me demanding to at least know when the PA happened she told me that it happened during our 5 month seperation she was still contacting him. It was at this point that I was done I didn't care to ask how many time they did it during that time or if they did it during the summer of 2011. As far as I'm concerned every other detail is not relevant to me anymore even if the 4 years after we got back together were very good.
> 
> I cannot imagine how after all that we have been through between 2011 and 2012 and here I was busting my ass off raising two kids by myself during the seperation she went right back into the affair and she never bothered to tell me about this until she started having anxiety or guilt issues this year. This has hurt me more then you can imagine and I'm completely done. That is it.


The moral lesson here for all wandering spouses is NEVER come clean. All it can do is hurt you.


----------



## G.J.

Ouch

Seems it

Dam that truth .....after a time period anyway


----------



## GusPolinski

ConanHub said:


> You trying to state facts too?
> 
> Let me know how that works...


I did nothing more than echo some of what OP stated w/ respect to his wife's stated desire to leave the family home.


----------



## ConanHub

sidney2718 said:


> The moral lesson here for all wandering spouses is NEVER come clean. All it can do is hurt you.


Yeah. That's it!

Just cheat and don't get caught would be even better.

You should write a cheaters handbook to help them get away with it.

After all, if screwing others isn't discovered it won't ever be a problem to begin with.

Better for all concerned if no one finds out.

Write a book. The world will be so much better when everyone is unfaithful liars that never get discovered.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

GusPolinski said:


> I did nothing more than echo some of what OP stated w/ respect to his wife's stated desire to leave the family home.


Exactly. Facts don't seem to really matter to a few posters here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

sidney2718 said:


> The moral lesson here for all wandering spouses is NEVER come clean. All it can do is hurt you.




One would hope that the more profound lesson would be to not become a wayward spouse in the first place.

And if that's not a profound enough, here's another lesson...

Reconciliation is a gift extended to a wayward by the grace of his or her betrayed. No wayward is _owed_ reconciliation, and no betrayed deserves a _false_ reconciliation.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

GusPolinski said:


> One would hope that the more profound lesson would be to not become a wayward spouse in the first place.
> 
> And if that's not a profound enough, here's another lesson...
> 
> Reconciliation is a gift extended to a wayward by the grace of his or her betrayed. No wayward is _owed_ reconciliation, and no betrayed deserves a _false_ reconciliation.


Amen Brother


----------



## ConanHub

OliviaG said:


> One thing that I think nobody seems to understand: grace is, by definition *never earned.*
> 
> I think what gave me the mad idea to post my thoughts on this thread in the first place was that I was so inspired by the OPs show of grace to his wife, and how he struggled to keep that mindset amid the onslaught of advice on this thread. It's *very seldom* that you stumble upon such an act of grace nowadays.
> 
> I brought up the concept of grace and the response was: but she hasn't earned R. Right, she hasn't. If she had earned it before it was accepted then IT COULD NOT BE GRACE.
> 
> Anyway, the OP has heard a lot of differing viewpoints and the decision's all his. I wish him, his wife and his children well.


Grace has to be accepted as the gift it is..

OP told her what he needed to R with her.

She didn't give what he needed for five years and is still unremorseful.

Even God has limits and mortals aren't God.

I only care about healthy choices. Reconciliation with an unremorseful WS is never healthy.

This woman is far from remorseful.

OP offered her reconciliation. She countered with more lies and manipulation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

OliviaG said:


> One thing that I think nobody seems to understand: grace is, by definition *never earned.*


Uhhh... I think that most people here understand that.

Let's take a quick tally...

Yours Truly - Currently in reconciliation w/ FWW
@Blossom Leigh - FWW currently in reconciliation w/ FWH (different husbands)
@marduk - Currently in reconciliation w/ FWW

And, as an Honorable Mention...

@michzz - Divorced WW upon learning that he'd spent DECADES in false reconciliation

Anyone else?



OliviaG said:


> I think what gave me the mad idea to post my thoughts on this thread in the first place was that I was so inspired by the OPs show of grace to his wife, and how he struggled to keep that mindset amid the onslaught of advice on this thread. It's *very seldom* that you stumble upon such an act of grace nowadays.
> 
> I brought up the concept of grace and the response was: but she hasn't earned R. Right, she hasn't. If she had earned it before it was accepted then IT COULD NOT BE GRACE.


You're not getting it.

OP extended the gift of reconciliation five years ago BASED. ON. A. LIE.

She was given the gift. She lied to secure it. She continued to lie in order to ensure that it wouldn't be rescinded.

And here's the thing... had she TOLD THE TRUTH FROM THE START, there may very well have been a different outcome here.

THAT'S the lesson to take from this.

How many times -- and for how many years? -- do you allow someone to REPEATEDLY lie to you before you draw your line in the sand?



OliviaG said:


> Anyway, the OP has heard a lot of differing viewpoints and the decision's all his. I wish him, his wife and his children well.


Agreed.


----------



## ConanHub

OliviaG said:


> One thing that I think nobody seems to understand: grace is, by definition *never earned.*
> 
> I think what gave me the mad idea to post my thoughts on this thread in the first place was that I was so inspired by the OPs show of grace to his wife, and how he struggled to keep that mindset amid the onslaught of advice on this thread. It's *very seldom* that you stumble upon such an act of grace nowadays.
> 
> I brought up the concept of grace and the response was: but she hasn't earned R. Right, she hasn't. If she had earned it before it was accepted then IT COULD NOT BE GRACE.
> 
> Anyway, the OP has heard a lot of differing viewpoints and the decision's all his. I wish him, his wife and his children well.


I come across acts of grace all the time.

It happens in the light of truth and not outside it.

You cannot manipulate and lie your way into receiving grace.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

ConanHub said:


> I come across acts of grace all the time.
> 
> It happens in the light of truth and not outside it.
> 
> You cannot manipulate and lie your way into receiving grace.


...and if you do, it will have been given falsely.

Well said.


----------



## G.J.

Owww Grace

or should I say 'our Grace'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qUua6Nwp5I

Cor blimey Mary Poppins


----------



## GusPolinski

OliviaG said:


> Okay, you're right, you don't have to manipulate or lie you way into receiving grace. You don't have to deserve it at all because of your lies, deceit and manipulation. That's what grace is, it's a GIFT with no strings attached.
> 
> That's what I thought the OP had extended. And yes, I know he's a mere mortal. That's why it was so inspiring.
> 
> I get it; you think the OPs wife deserves what she's getting. She probably does. What does that have to do with grace?!


So you'd have him continue to extend that gift in vein over and over and over?

When is he allowed the dignity of a life away from betrayal, lies, and self-serving duplicity?

Look, it's a sad state of affairs that so many marriages end in divorce when so many of them might have been salvaged.

_But it's sadder still that so many of them are placed in danger of meeting that end to begin with._

Divorce is often the result of behavior that could conceivably _lead to_ divorce. When infidelity is involved, divorce isn't exactly a stretch of the imagination.

I'll hazard a question here. Please know that it is in no way an attack or assumption...

Do you have any first-hand experience w/ infidelity in either your marriage or other, previous relationships?


----------



## ConanHub

OliviaG said:


> Okay, you're right, you don't have to manipulate or lie you way into receiving grace. You don't deserve it at all because of your lies, deceit and manipulation. And yet it is freely given, and not easily given. That's what grace is, it's a GIFT with no strings attached.
> 
> That's what I thought the OP had extended. And yes, I know he's a mere mortal. That's why it was so inspiring.
> 
> I get it; you think the OPs wife deserves what she's getting. She probably does. What does that have to do with grace?!


Well he did extend Grace which was giving her something good she did not deserve.

What did she do with that gift?

He had both mercy and grace on her for which she still insisted on lying to him to obtain.

Grace isn't to be so disrespected and falsely obtained.

God can't be fooled and still requires the truth from us.

Is OP better than God?

OP doesn't need to require truth?

OP has limits and they have been reached apparently.

Are you willing to swallow betrayal and lying upon manipulation with no remorse for years without repercussions?

A cop might let you off with a warning after he catches you speeding but if he catches you lying your ass off, he will probably reverse course.

Humble honesty was needed here. It was not given.

I'm not rooting for a divorce or reconciliation here.

I'm rooting for everyone to get healthy. The WW hasn't really learned an important lesson.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ConanHub said:


> I come across acts of grace all the time.
> 
> It happens in the light of truth and not outside it.
> 
> You cannot manipulate and lie your way into receiving grace.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Extremely well said.


----------



## GusPolinski

Here's an analogy for the ladies...

You meet a guy. You're not crazy about him, but he's OK.

You date. You take it slow because -- well, like I said -- you're not crazy about him.

Your relationship w/ the guy progresses a bit and you take the next step -- sex. You're not on the pill, but that's OK because he's fastidious about using protection. In fact, he's NEVER w/o a condom, if not two.

Somehow, you get pregnant. You've warmed to the guy a bit so you figure, "What the Hell, why not?", and you get married. Parenthood and marital bliss ensues.

Five years and another kid later, you find out that he was poking holes in his condoms while you were dating.

How do you feel?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

GusPolinski said:


> Here's an analogy for the ladies...
> 
> You meet a guy. You're not crazy about him, but he's OK.
> 
> You date. You take it slow because -- well, like I said -- you're not crazy about him.
> 
> Your relationship w/ the guy progresses a bit and you take the next step -- sex. You're not on the pill, but that's OK because he's fastidious about using protection. In fact, he's NEVER w/o a condom, if not two.
> 
> Somehow, you get pregnant. You've warmed to the guy a bit so you figure, "What the Hell, why not?", and you get married. Parenthood and marital bliss ensues.
> 
> Five years and another kid later, you find out that he was poking holes in his condoms while you were dating.
> 
> How do you feel?


Violated


----------



## Blonde

huanito said:


> They have a mother and a father who love them dearly but are unfortunately in a poisonous relationship. Although she is the guilty one it sucks that I am always left to make the final move. My kids are* 6, 5 and 2 *and very attached to both parent.


Ages 6, 5, and 2

Heartbreaking!

So for the entire life of two of those children, your marriage has been good and all this is about something that happened* 5 years ago* And you are mad at your wife for not telling you,* but look what happened when she told you*



huanito said:


> In my mind I have been putting so much focus on the negativity of what she did 5 years ago and not putting much consideration of what was our relationship the last 5 years. Prior to the affair we used to always and constantly fight. She used to feel neglected and I used to feel she was not being understanding and there was resentments between both of us. After the affair we both made some big changes. even though I am certain we fought and got into arguments here and there since every couple do, there is nothing that comes to mind. She has been very supportive, interested, obedient, loving and understanding
> 
> ...
> 
> Bottom line is* I have absolutely no issue with our relationship now and how it turned out after the affair. * The big issue is her lying about the true extent of the affair 5 years ago.
> 
> I am currently trying to assess the situation like this. Does her lying about the full extent of the affair 5 years ago outweigh the effort she made within the last 5 years trying to be a better wife?
> 
> I don't think so but I'm not sure or at the very least want to come up with a quick conclusion.


Do you have someone you could talk to in real life? A counselor or a priest or pastor? I really think you are making a hasty decision about something which is going to have massive repercussions for all concerned. Those are very young children. How on earth are you going to give them the attention they need? You alone with no family around and a history of workaholism...

You've been posting here for FOUR DAYS and gone from thinking your marriage was on a good track to healing all the way to eliminating your wife from your life and her children's lives. SMH!

Please talk to someone in real life, someone with skin on before you take such a drastic step!

Maybe take a vacation from each other. Send her and the children to her sister's for a couple months so you can cool down and consider whether you really want to bust up your family over something that happened 5 years ago that your wife is wracked by guilt over and you seem unable to forgive.


----------



## GusPolinski

Actually saw something like this a while back...

Dr. Phil - Conception Deception

*cough* mywifewaswatchingit!


----------



## Kobold

Blonde said:


> Haven't followed your story but just want to point out that in your new country of the US *you* do not have the right to unilaterally take children away from their mother and send them to your relatives in another country.
> 
> Your W has permission to be here in the US and not in Canada, so she should stay here with her children. Clearly she should have custody since you do not have the time to take care of them and would have them in daycare.
> 
> You will pay child support and I'm quite sure she will qualify for lots and lots of public assistance.
> 
> Go ahead and split if that is what you want, but plan on your W having custody and Uncle Sam taking a piece out of your paycheck for child support.
> 
> (and assuming you are too poor to support two households, those of us who are US taxpayers will be ponying up for her food stamps, section 8, TANF, Medicaid, and etc...)


Mocking a man who has been cheated on repeatedly, lied to for five years and is about to lose his family over it? I'm genuinely sad for whatever trauma must have made you into such a person who could say these things to another human being.  



soccermom2three said:


> Are you ****ing kidding me? You are going divorce their mother and then send your kids away to some far away relative? What is this, some old Charles ****ens story? What century do you live in?
> 
> Your children will never forgive you.


You're outraged about this, not about the OP being played for a fool all of these years by an unremorseful adulteress, but the mere notion that his kids might be sent to a relative while he gets his life back together sends you into a profanity ridden tirade? Why is that? 



Happilymarried25 said:


> This thread is getting me angry. That you would keep your children away from their Mother is wrong. Stop thinking about your ego and think about what is best for your children. Doing this will damage them. They are going from being with their Mom full time to never seeing her. For the past 5 years you lived with, loved, made love and had a baby with your wife knowing she cheated on you. Then she tells you (which was a BIG mistake on her part) and now you want to break up your family. She has been a great wife and Mom for 5 years. You had forgiven her. You should stay married and stay a family.


He forgave her for an EA, then she (finally)told him the truth about his own marriage(as he was always entitled to) and now she's suffering the natural consequence for her affair and her years of lying, a divorce. Anything less than that would really just be the OP being benevolent towards her. Keeping one's marriage after cheating and lying about it for several years is not the norm in these situations. 



sidney2718 said:


> The moral lesson here for all wandering spouses is NEVER come clean. All it can do is hurt you.


Situational morality isn't really morality at all. If you're only doing the right thing(telling the truth in this instance) in order to be rewarded for your honesty then you're honesty wasn't motivated by your morals, but was merely a continuation of the same focus on your own self interest that led you into having an affair in the first place. 

If you rob a bank and then turn yourself in(five years later mind you) and your natural response after being hauled off to jail is regret for having ever confessed, then you never were truly remorseful in the first place. You were either afraid of being ratted out, or brazen in your belief that you're completely untouchable or just simply oblivious to how the world actually works, either way have fun stamping license plates. 



huanito said:


> She said that although she did me wrong she tried to correct her wrong by trying to do everything right the last 5 years and it has completely broken her heart that I was so quick to call and insist divorce. She says she doesn't know how she could feel secure in this marriage knowing how quick I am able to let her go yet she doesn't want to be with anyone but me and that I will always be in her heart.


When you first posted that you decided to divorce I thought maybe you were acting too hastily and that maybe you ought to think some more about this, after reading the above quote from you I must recant of that view. She's trying to put all of this on your shoulders while acting like you're the one who's not a trustworthy partner in this scenario even thought it was her who cheated and her who deceived you for five years about it. She's manipulative to her core IMO.


----------



## GusPolinski

OliviaG said:


> He's allowed whatever life he chooses, it's not up to me. But for the record, she did not betray him over and over. She betrayed him once when they were separated, and before they decided to R. She has been a good and faithful wife ever since, according to him.


Incorrect.

She betrayed him again when she agreed to reconcile w/o first volunteering -- or at least admitting to -- the truth that SHE KNEW had a greater chance of leading to a different outcome.

One could also make a reasonable case for the notion that each and every day that she failed to disclose the truth to him amounted to yet another betrayal.

Oh, and I'm sure it dawned on her that bringing another kid into the fold couldn't hurt her chances either.

All of this is _at least_ manipulation. And that, combined w/ her protracted refusal to disclose the truth in order to ensure a more favorable outcome for herself IS betrayal.


----------



## GusPolinski

OliviaG said:


> Gus, I don't expect the OP to feel good about being betrayed.


Geeeeez. What does a wayward have to do around here to warrant a divorce?

Have a penis?

Tell you what, OP, hand your wife a butterknife and ask her to slowly remove your manhood from between your thighs.

Then she'll have a penis.


----------



## GusPolinski

OliviaG said:


> That's your interpretation. An alternate interpretation is that she kept the secret as a way to protect her husband from more pain and to preserve her family.


Alternative and _invalid_ interpretation.

Her intent doesn't matter.

All that matters is that she denied him the choice that would've been afforded to him by the truth.

It wasn't her decision to make and yet she effectively made it for him.

He was denied his "No".

Isn't this THE reason why rape is generally seen as bad?


----------



## 3putt

OliviaG said:


> That's your interpretation. An alternate interpretation is that she kept the secret as a way to protect her husband from more pain and to preserve her family.


Bullsh!t, she was protecting herself and her gravy train interests.

Are you really this ignorant?


----------



## GusPolinski

OliviaG said:


> I don't think there's anything to be gained by continuing to argue about this. You (the group with the opposing viewpoint to mine) haven't convinced me, but then again, you don't need to do you? We can agree to disagree.
> 
> What really matters is what the OP thinks, and he's been won over to your way of thinking. So mission accomplished.


Here's what you don't get to see from the other side of a monitor...

I was sad when he announced his decision to divorce.

Thinking about it now still makes me sad.

Because it IS sad.

You're talking to a guy that had to tell his mother to divorce his father and urged his SIL to divorce his brother. Infidelity in both cases.

I'm not new to this.

Those of us that have been at this for longer than a couple of weeks realize that we're not going to sway the opinion of the people w/ whom we debate these things. That's not why we do it.

We do it so that those that HAVEN'T been around for quite so long are afforded a perspective that allows them to view the gravity of their situation through a lens of reason that will enable them to think the _*details* of their situation_ through to their logical end.

We're not necessarily trying to convince anyone to divorce; rather, we're trying to convince everyone to look at everything w/ both eyes open.


----------



## 3putt

OliviaG said:


> What really matters is what the OP thinks, and he's been won over to your way of thinking. So mission accomplished.


And your mission has failed. Hang up and try your call again.

If you truly believe that secrets and lying are the cornerstone of a good marriage, then you need more help than our OP. 

Way more.


----------



## Dyokemm

OliviaG said:


> That's your interpretation. An alternate interpretation is that she kept the secret as a way to protect her husband from more pain and to preserve her family.


I know of a guy (a cousin of one of my really close friends) who is a total POS serial cheater who uses this excuse to continuously gaslight and TT his BW.

It's complete bullsh*t.....he does it because if she ever discovered all of the sh*t he has been up to (from what my friend has told me), she would probably overcome her doormat, co-dependent tendencies and D his worthless a**.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Boy. I don't log in for an afternoon and I miss the "Glossy Posse" tryin' to put a spit shine on another WW.

You know, last week when that clown kept going off about how "white women" were all cheaters and "white men" were all beta ****'s, I almost, for the first time, used the ignore feature. But I didn't. I figured that he'd get banned before long and that would be that.

Now.. I'm pretty sure that I'll use it on the entire "Glossy Posse". "Cause they ain't goin' anywhere in the near future and reading their posts actually gives me a headache.

CLICK!


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally *Posted by huanito*
> I am also emotionally exhausted, depressed and miserable…..


Your post above and previous posts have convinced me that you are very close to the breaking point. The added stress and extreme guilt that you have regarding your children may just cause you to implode. I am going to give you perhaps another way to handle your situation that may keep some of the stress at a lower degree.

You have stated that your greatest concern right now is your children. Here is another view and another way you may want to consider.

If it will help you to get a divorce then do it. Your wife said that she will give you full custody of the children.* Allow your wife to stay in the house with you and your children. *If you want you can have separate rooms and reduce the time that you see each other.

*With this arrangement your children will benefit from a father and mother that loves them dearly.* You said that your wife is an excellent mother, is very supportive, interested, obedient, loving and understanding. That is a lot and probably more positive than some marriages that have never experienced infidelity. That can be very beneficial to your children. Is this the perfect solution? NO, but face it you only have non-perfect, compromising choices left.

*With this arrangement you will be giving your children an excellent loving FULL TIME mother and your EXTREME GUILT will be alleviated to a great degree*. In addition, your children will benefit more than having their mother so far away in another country. Will this require you to compromise? SURE IT WILL but you are going to compromise one way or the other. With this way you help yourself and your children.

*Every good father will sacrifice for their children and in the end they both win*.




> Originally Posted by huanito
> 
> Here is my greatest delima so far which are the children.
> she told me that she will give me the full custody of the kids
> After all that happened I am having extreme guilt over this because of the children.
> They have a mother and a father who love them dearly
> My kids are 6, 5 and 2 and very attached to both parent
> she has been an excellent mother.
> She has been very supportive, interested, obedient, loving and understanding


----------



## Dyokemm

jld said:


> The fact that he is willing to send his children away to live with relatives tells me all I need to know about him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The fact that she was willing to risk destroying her children's family by f*cking one of her BH's friends/relatives, while he was working hard trying to build a future for her and the kids, tells me all I need to know about her.

Oh, and also doubling down on that bad decision by deciding to hide the true extent of what she had done from her BH for another 5 years.


----------



## JohnA

Kind of surprised a lot of vets here missed the problem of some of his thoughts on short term custody issues. Letting the kds go out of the country to a country the mother resides is insane. The second they get into Canada if she wants it she gets custody. She has custody she gets to establish his visitation schedule. No way Canada let's those kids out of the country. OP do you have the money to go to an international court? Even if you win the point of law in several years, you will still lose as the court will deciede since they are settled to leave them. 

OP you are manic, CHILL.


----------



## aine

huanito said:


> Well it's happening and we are seperating and I'll most likely be moving her out tomorrow to her sisters house (her choice). After all that happened I am having extreme guilt over this because of the children. They have a mother and a father who love them dearly but are unfortunately in a poisonous relationship. Although she is the guilty one it sucks that I am always left to make the final move. My kids are 6, 5 and 2 and very attached to both parent. I'm thinking of keeping them here but their mother will be far away. (13 hours drive) so they will definatley loose the privillage of seeing both parents often. And I'm sure I will get the daunting question of "when are we going to pick up mommy" I'm in tears but I'm very afraid of looking back and reconsidering hence I may be here in another 5 years regretting this.


She is voluntarily giving up custody of the kids and moving 13 hours away because she is lonely? WTF! What kind of mother is she? A bloody awful one, no 'great' mother as you put it would do that to her kids. Why can't you separate and she live someone close and see her kids, get a job and grow up, sounds like she needs to do that.


----------



## bfree

OliviaG said:


> He's allowed whatever life he chooses, it's not up to me. But for the record, she did not betray him over and over. She betrayed him once when they were separated, and before they decided to R. She has been a good and faithful wife ever since, according to him.


Actually if I have this correct she betrayed him once and when he didn't "get over it" fast enough they separated. Then while separated she went back to the guy she cheated with and betrayed her husband again. So that's twice. Then when they got back together and he asked if she had sex with the OM she lied and told him no. Even though he didn't find that out until recently that's was third betrayal. It seems to me given her recent statements that she never actually learned anything about why she cheated in the first place. This isn't surprising because for the last 5 years she was still operating with a "wayward mindset" due to her deception. She was still carrying around her cheater baggage so she could not delve into the character flaws that allowed her to commit such despicable acts of deceit. Because of these reasons this reconciliation was doomed to inevitable failure.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

@bfree Correct.. it just took five years for all of that to surface at no fault of the OP.

OP, how possible is it for you and your wife to arrange a residence that has a basement apartment for her? That way your expenses are mitigated while she gets on her feet.


----------



## ButtPunch

I am in agreement with the fact the OP has a right to divorce his WW.
I am in agreement that the reconciliation was false the minute she lied to him five years ago.
He owes her nothing imo. 

However.....

Five years is a long time to show she can be faithful to the marriage. If he truly has been happy,
for the last five years and not resentful I think the OP would be wise to do nothing for while. 

Why does he have to divorce this very minute when the wounds have just been reopened? 

OP Were you happy these previous 5 years or were you becoming more and more resentful over that time 
because you knew she was lying?

Nothing wrong with divorcing.....I just think decisions are being made super hastily at an emotionally vulnerable time.


----------



## Marduk

sparrow555 said:


> Put her on the ignore list. It helps reduce the spike in blood pressure after you read some of her posts.


I can't do that. 

When she's right, she's right. And she's right about a lot. 

Just not about this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

soccermom2three said:


> So it's okay to punish the children? Do you think before you post something so vile? My god, what is happening here? I've never seen such stupid, crazy posts.


Exactly who is punishing the children here?

If I punch somebody in the face and go to jail, is the state punishing my children?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ThePheonix

bfree said:


> It seems to me given her recent statements that she never actually learned anything about why she cheated in the first place.


He should put her in contact with me to explain why she cheated. Its really, really simply but seems to escape most folks. She cheated because her romantic interest in him was so low there was nothing in to get in the way of temptation to be with a man she was interested in. 
Actually she knows why she cheated as do all women. Its the men who cannot get there arms around the idea that a woman cheats because she's lost romantic interest in them usually long before finding romantic interest in another guy. The men want to blame the woman's lousy character but at the same time a lot of women will cheat on one guy but not another. Ask the girls if I'm right.
(of course there are always some cases like this dork whose wife is advertising on internet sites.


----------



## Marduk

soccermom2three said:


> My brother in law is going through a divorce because his wife cheated. Not once did he even think of punishing their children by talking trash or taking them away from her. That's how mature, sane people conduct themselves.


Right.

Because finding out your wife cheated on you repeatedly and lied to you for five years has zero emotional connotations.

I'm glad for you that your brother in law is capable of treating an affair and a divorce like a chess match. Most people aren't that way.

Most people go through feeling like you're not good enough, like your life is a lie, and like you've been betrayed by the person you trusted the most.

It's to be expected, and it's understandible, and will pass.


----------



## ConanHub

marduk said:


> I can't do that.
> 
> When she's right, she's right. And she's right about a lot.
> 
> Just not about this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Same here. I try to put a mental block when she is posting about female infidelity.

The contempt she was showing OP here got to me though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

ThePheonix said:


> He should put her in contact with me to explain why she cheated. Its really, really simply but seems to escape most folks. She cheated because her romantic interest in him was so low there was nothing in to get in the way of temptation to be with a man she was interested in.
> Actually she knows why she cheated as do all women. Its the men who cannot get there arms around the idea that a woman cheats because she's lost romantic interest in them usually long before finding romantic interest in another guy. The men want to blame the woman's lousy character but at the same time a lot of women will cheat on one guy but not another. Ask the girls if I'm right.
> (of course there are always some cases like this dork whose wife is advertising on internet sites.


I honestly think you have a point but not the whole picture concerning female cheaters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> One thing that I think nobody seems to understand: grace is, by definition *never earned.*
> 
> I think what gave me the mad idea to post my thoughts on this thread in the first place was that I was so inspired by the OPs show of grace to his wife, and how he struggled to keep that mindset amid the onslaught of advice on this thread. It's *very seldom* that you stumble upon such an act of grace nowadays.
> 
> I brought up the concept of grace and the response was: but she hasn't earned R. Right, she hasn't. If she had earned it before it was accepted then IT COULD NOT BE GRACE.


Your logic does not track, even in this simple statement.

He showed her grace. Instead of accepting it humbly and honestly, she continued to lie to him.

He just ran out of cheeks to turn. I guess that makes him the bad guy now?


----------



## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> He's allowed whatever life he chooses, it's not up to me. But for the record, she did not betray him over and over. She betrayed him once when they were separated, and before they decided to R. She has been a good and faithful wife ever since, according to him.


Nope, go back and read the story.

Do you think anyone here would have responded the way we did if this was a ONS five years ago tearfully confessed now?

It wasn't that. Not by a long shot.


----------



## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> That's your interpretation. An alternate interpretation is that she kept the secret as a way to protect her husband from more pain and to preserve her family.


Help me understand that. Explain the logic to me in a way that's consistent, makes sense, and isn't just a way to rationalize how to hide from the consequences for her actions.

Because it's remarkably easy to take the thing you want to do and wrap it up in martyrdom.


----------



## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> I don't think there's anything to be gained by continuing to argue about this. You (the group with the opposing viewpoint to mine) haven't convinced me, but then again, you don't need to do you? We can agree to disagree.
> 
> What really matters is what the OP thinks, and he's been won over to your way of thinking. So mission accomplished.


All you've convinced me of is that if I ever do cheat on my wife, I should pump out a few more young kids and use them to hang onto my marriage.

Because "what about the children," right? She'd be evil for divorcing me for cheating on her repeatedly and emotionally abusing her, right?

She should show me grace while I party and bang some sweet young thing?


----------



## Marduk

Oh, and we completely glossed over the fact that he's been risking his health by having sex with her for the past five years.

Get STD tested, man.

Another thing to add to the pile of decisions he should have been allowed to make about his own body and life, and was denied.


----------



## LosingHim

ThePheonix said:


> He should put her in contact with me to explain why she cheated. Its really, really simply but seems to escape most folks. She cheated because her romantic interest in him was so low there was nothing in to get in the way of temptation to be with a man she was interested in.
> Actually she knows why she cheated as do all women. Its the men who cannot get there arms around the idea that a woman cheats because she's lost romantic interest in them usually long before finding romantic interest in another guy. The men want to blame the woman's lousy character but at the same time a lot of women will cheat on one guy but not another. Ask the girls if I'm right.
> (of course there are always some cases like this dork whose wife is advertising on internet sites.


I know you’re stuck on all women cheat because they’ve lost romantic interest in their husbands. But that is not always the case. I never lost romantic interest in my husband. Part of the reason I was vulnerable to cheating was the lack of my husbands romantic interest in ME. I still wanted him, I still loved him, I still wanted my fairy tale family, marriage, the whole shebang. But I wasn’t getting any of that. My husband was pushing me away by not doing romantic things with me, rarely having an interest in doing things with me, conversing with me, connecting with me, etc. I chased and chased and chased his love and never got it. I felt broken down, forgotten, unattractive, unworthy of being loved. So the minute someone showed an interest in me and applied some pressure, I did the worst thing possible. I felt valuable for the first time in a long time and in that moment, that’s what mattered. 

I am NOT blaming my husband for what I did. That’s on ME and ME alone. I could have divorced him, I could have demanded counseling, I could have put my foot down and said that I wasn’t getting what I needed from the relationship. I didn’t do any of that. Because I was still in love with him, I was just bitter, angry and holding on to hope that he would wake up and see I was hurting so bad and change it. 

Now that I “know better” and know that I don’t want to be that person, I’m more cognizant of what I need and what I will accept and regardless of the situation I am in, I will never cheat again.

But it was never about losing any kind of romantic interest in HIM. It was about going so long without what I needed that I selfishly gave in to the feelings I was suddenly feeling as far as being validated and wanted and being too weak and delusional to say no.


----------



## ThePheonix

LosingHim said:


> I still wanted my fairy tale family, marriage, the whole shebang. But I wasn’t getting any of that. My husband was pushing me away by not doing romantic things with me, rarely having an interest in doing things with me, conversing with me, connecting with me, etc. I chased and chased and chased his love and never got it. I felt broken down, forgotten, unattractive, unworthy of being loved. So the minute someone showed an interest in me and applied some pressure, I did the worst thing possible. I felt valuable for the first time in a long time and in that moment, that’s what mattered.


I'z trying to keep a complicated matter in one sentence, but what you are saying is just a different leg of the same dog. I'll stand by my statement that it applies to most cheaters. 
Your situation was much like mine (from a male perspective) that caused me to go way out of the norm. And in many ways worse than you losing interest in him. Nothing causes a person to hunger and thirst for affection and affirmation than having the one you chose to fulfill these needs reject you. Many of my former clients were in your shoes where the husband put them on ignore. Whether you feel comfortable and more acceptable to take all the blame, I'd argue on your behalf that if he'd treated you like a wife should be treated, you wouldn't have taken that road. Whether you should have forced change or divorced instead of finding comfort in the arms of someone else is not really the issue. Had he been a loving and supporting husband, you wouldn't have been in the position of being between bad choices. In my judgement, he's the cause of that. (and I'd argue when you were with the other guy, your interest in your husband, or at least your faith that he could provide for your emotional and physical needs, was at an all time low.) Tell me I'm wrong milady.


----------



## soccermom2three

marduk said:


> Right.
> 
> Because finding out your wife cheated on you repeatedly and lied to you for five years has zero emotional connotations.
> 
> I'm glad for you that your brother in law is capable of treating an affair and a divorce like a chess match. Most people aren't that way.
> 
> Most people go through feeling like you're not good enough, like your life is a lie, and like you've been betrayed by the person you trusted the most.
> 
> It's to be expected, and it's understandible, and will pass.


My brother in law is getting 50/50 custody, is paying no alimony or child support, keeping his retirement, keeping the house and all the toys, (motorcycles, boat, jet ski, 5th wheel), all because he kept his mouth shut and didn't try to play games. No attorney fees, just mediation

I'm pretty sure if he would've followed the vengeful advice given here, the above wouldn't have happened.


----------



## ConanHub

OliviaG said:


> Here's the thing: *I'm not and never have I said that the OP *should* show his wife grace.* What I pointed out was that the OP was very much inclined to show his wife grace when he came here. And he had shown her grace 5 years ago. Grace is expensive, it costs the giver a lot. I don't have any right to *demand* that of someone, nor would i demand it. But *he* decided to show his wife grace 5 years ago. And I found it to be a very admirable and inspirational story.
> 
> He hung onto that inclination through the first couple of rounds here of dealing with the onslaught of spirited advice to do the exact opposite. Most of you on this thread are all about meting out punishment on the wayward. Your advice is all about an eye for an eye - the complete opposite of grace. And you (collectively) gave it to him with both barrels. He was reeling but for a while he still hung on to his inclination to extend grace.
> 
> What I was saying was that *in this particular case*, since the BS was inclined to extend grace, and since his wife had appeared to have been moved to completely and totally rededicate her life to her marriage, and since they had lived happily in that state for 5 years, and since they have three very young children, it is a crying shame that he came here a vulnerable man and was talked of what he was inclined to do. Because that thing, IMO, would have saved his entire family. It was the only chance they had, given what his wife had done.
> 
> Nobody has to tell me one more time that his wife doesn't deserve it, that she's getting what's coming to her, that her husband has every right to divorce her. *I know that.* I get why someone would find it nearly impossible to forgive what she did. That's got nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.


I know you are way overestimating the influence of a days worth of posting on TAM.

I'm neutral on divorce or r in almost every case unless unhealthy choices are being made.

If OP made a reverse course in a half day of interacting with posters, there are much bigger issues at stake.

No, their family wasn't peachy. The R was not built on trust and OP was bothered about it.

She bares the responsibility not TAM.

Hope your SO knows you can cheat on each other as long as you lie about it, don't get caught and stop after you've each had your fill of strange uglies.

You are really promoting dishonesty and manipulation here and implying it is the BS's fault if children suffer.

They really were not doing exceptional. The WW was cracking up from guilt, not remorse, and OP had a constant nagging feeling. Not healthy.

Not sustainable. Truth is required.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ConanHub said:


> I know you are way overestimating the influence of a days worth of posting on TAM.
> 
> I'm neutral on divorce or r in almost every case unless unhealthy choices are being made.
> 
> If OP made a reverse course in a half day of interacting with posters, there are much bigger issues at stake.
> 
> No, their family wasn't peachy. The R was not built on trust and OP was bothered about it.
> 
> She bares the responsibility not TAM.
> 
> Hope your SO knows you can cheat on each other as long as you lie about it, don't get caught and stop after you've each had your fill of strange uglies.
> 
> You are really promoting dishonesty and manipulation here and implying it is the BS's fault if children suffer.
> 
> They really were not doing exceptional. The WW was cracking up from guilt, not remorse, and OP had a constant nagging feeling. Not healthy.
> 
> Not sustainable. Truth is required.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agree, and its just further evidence that truth and error cannot cohabitate.


----------



## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> Here's the thing: *I'm not and never have I said that the OP *should* show his wife grace.* What I pointed out was that the OP was very much inclined to show his wife grace when he came here. And he had shown her grace 5 years ago. Grace is expensive, it costs the giver a lot. I don't have any right to *demand* that of someone, nor would i demand it. But *he* decided to show his wife grace 5 years ago. And I found it to be a very admirable and inspirational story.


You keep backtracking, Olivia.

You say that he shouldn't show her grace in the same way that you say you weren't shaming him -- when you obviously were doing both.

If you've changed your mind, fine. Just be honest about it.



> He hung onto that inclination through the first couple of rounds here of dealing with the onslaught of spirited advice to do the exact opposite. Most of you on this thread are all about meting out punishment on the wayward. Your advice is all about an eye for an eye - the complete opposite of grace. And you (collectively) gave it to him with both barrels. He was reeling but for a while he still hung on to his inclination to extend grace.


It's never been about punishment. 

It has been about removing himself from a deceitful, abusive, purposeful situation created by his wife. She didn't make a mistake, she made a lifestyle choice.

There are natural consequences to life. You can sweep them under the rug in the guise of 'grace' but it is what it is.



> What I was saying was that *in this particular case*, since the BS was inclined to extend grace, and since his wife had appeared to have been moved to completely and totally rededicate her life to her marriage, and since they had lived happily in that state for 5 years, and since they have three very young children, it is a crying shame that he came here a vulnerable man and was talked of what he was inclined to do. Because that thing, IMO, would have saved his entire family. It was the only chance they had, given what his wife had done.


It actually wasn't the only chance they had. The only chance they had was one of the following:
A) not have the A to begin with (repeatedly, I'll remind you)
B) not lie about it during reconciliation
C) and if she had a 'come to Jesus' moment five years later, it should have been a tearful, remorseful confession in order to improve honesty in the marriage and ultimately her husband's happiness, not one to make herself feel better (remember it was about relieving her anxiety and was IMHO triggered by the OM getting engaged)

In short, she has a lot of work to do. And since she still obviously blames her husband for her affair, and blames him for leaving her, and is willing to dump her kids on him because they're an impediment to her life...

Staying with her isn't going to help her any. She needs to grow. By learning consequences for her actions. This isn't punishment. I don't believe there's some old dude in the sky dealing out retribution for our sins.

But I do believe that the only real way to learn from our mistakes is to face them head on, and accept the natural consequences.



> Nobody has to tell me one more time that his wife doesn't deserve it, that she's getting what's coming to her, that her husband has every right to divorce her. *I know that.* I get why someone would find it nearly impossible to forgive what she did. That's got nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.


Respectfully. You keep moving the goalposts so often I have no idea even which playing field you're on.


----------



## Marduk

soccermom2three said:


> My brother in law is getting 50/50 custody, is paying no alimony or child support, keeping his retirement, keeping the house and all the toys, (motorcycles, boat, jet ski, 5th wheel), all because he kept his mouth shut and didn't try to play games. No attorney fees, just mediation
> 
> I'm pretty sure if he would've followed the vengeful advice given here, the above wouldn't have happened.


You mean if he kept his mouth shut and left her with a smile on his face?

If so, sure.

I just call BS on your brother in law. Nobody takes it that well, unless they wanted out to begin with.

To hell with toys. I can always get more toys.


----------



## soccermom2three

ButtPunch said:


> I am in agreement with the fact the OP has a right to divorce his WW.
> I am in agreement that the reconciliation was false the minute she lied to him five years ago.
> He owes her nothing imo.
> 
> However.....
> 
> Five years is a long time to show she can be faithful to the marriage. If he truly has been happy,
> for the last five years and not resentful I think the OP would be wise to do nothing for while.
> 
> Why does he have to divorce this very minute when the wounds have just been reopened?
> 
> OP Were you happy these previous 5 years or were you becoming more and more resentful over that time
> because you knew she was lying?
> 
> Nothing wrong with divorcing.....I just think decisions are being made super hastily at an emotionally vulnerable time.


A very reasonable post.

The OP posted, on the 29th? He needs to take a deep breath and think about the questions you asked here.

I don't understand the glee in some of the posts telling the OP to divorce and support the separation of the children from the parent that has been their primary caretaker for their entire lives. I don't know, maybe they are so caught up in the frothy frenzy of punishing a female cheater, they are not thinking of what their posts sound like.

When these posts come up, I get the feeling the posters are living vicariously through the OP and are giving advice based what they should've done or are too afraid to do themselves.


----------



## soccermom2three

marduk said:


> You mean if he kept his mouth shut and left her with a smile on his face?
> 
> If so, sure.
> 
> I just call BS on your brother in law. Nobody takes it that well, unless they wanted out to begin with.
> 
> To hell with toys. I can always get more toys.


No, he's devastated. He thought he was going be married to this woman for the rest of his life. He's heartbroken for his children. He's mature and rational enough to know that being vengeful wasn't going to work out for him.


----------



## Marduk

soccermom2three said:


> No, he's devastated. He thought he was going be married to this woman for the rest of his life. He's heartbroken for his children. He's mature and rational enough to know that being vengeful wasn't going to work out for him.


Wait, so he's devastated, but pretended he wasn't?

So he could keep his toys?

And that's a good thing?

Why is men showing their emotional pain usually seen as a bad thing to certain women?


----------



## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> My God, Marduk, this is getting tiresome. Why do you feel the need to falsely accuse *me*. I have not moved the goalposts. Go back and re-read my posts because I think you must have misread some things.
> 
> Nothing I've said here should be construed as a criticism of how *you* handled your wife's EA, or how anyone else has handled a serious betrayal. It's not about you. I'm not saying you should have forgiven your wife. I'm not even saying that the OP should have forgiven his wife.


OK then. Help me understand your position. Let's agree to forget everything we've said before. I'll promise to do my best to keep an open mind.

And I've asked for help understanding how continuing a lie is helping the marriage, and I'd like to include a betrayed spouse's right to understand the physical risks as well as the emotional ones.


----------



## bfree

soccermom2three said:


> No, he's devastated. He thought he was going be married to this woman for the rest of his life. He's heartbroken for his children. He's mature and rational enough to know that being vengeful wasn't going to work out for him.


Agreed that one should be as mature and rational as possible especially in the face of something so emotionally destructive. I also agree that the OP should take a deep breath and try to work his way through his feelings before making any major decisions. But I can understand the rationale he seems to be feeling that he's wasted the past 5 years and is tired and frustrated and just wants it to be over. Personally I don't think any time has been wasted because we learn and grow with each experience we have. I support the OP in his decision to divorce but if he decides to reverse course and try to reconcile again I'll support him in that as well. I am curious though about one thing. What advice are you referring to as vengeful?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

OliviaG said:


> No, I'm not going to agree to forget what I wrote before. I stand by it. I took time out of my life to express it as thoughtfully as I could. I don't have the time to write it out again, I just can't take the time, I'm sorry.
> 
> I hope you will re-read them with an open mind.
> 
> I am not saying that continuing a lie helps a marriage. I think a betrayed spouse has the right to understand what's going on in a marriage. It's not about being *required* to lose rights or to live a lie to help your marriage.
> 
> But this guy already knew that his wife had had an EA and he suspected a PA. *He chose to forgive and to continue in the marriage. IN ADDITION TO THE RIGHTS YOU MENTIONED, HE ALSO HAS THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE TO FORGIVE. He has the right to decide not to demand all the details and to accept that his wife may have lied to him about the extent of the affair and to FORGIVE HER ANYWAY.*


Olivia, did you see where he clarified that there was a second event he did not know about, and THAT is what is creating the angst for him? She was smooth talkin him while he didn't know she was endeavoring to screw her AP. That new info changed this for him.


----------



## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> No, I'm not going to agree to forget what I wrote before. I stand by it. I took time out of my life to express it as thoughtfully as I could. I don't have the time to write it out again, I just can't take the time, I'm sorry.
> 
> I hope you will re-read them with an open mind.
> 
> I am not saying that continuing a lie helps a marriage. I think a betrayed spouse has the right to understand what's going on in a marriage. It's not about being *required* to lose rights or to live a lie to help your marriage.
> 
> But this guy already knew that his wife had had an EA and he suspected a PA. *He chose to forgive and to continue in the marriage. IN ADDITION TO THE RIGHTS YOU MENTIONED, HE ALSO HAS THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE TO FORGIVE. He has the right to decide not to demand all the details and to accept that his wife may have lied to him about the extent of the affair and to FORGIVE HER ANYWAY.*


Sigh.

Off to the gym, I give up.


----------



## soccermom2three

bfree said:


> Agreed that one should be as mature and rational as possible especially in the face of something so emotionally destructive. I also agree that the OP should take a deep breath and try to work his way through his feelings before making any major decisions. But I can understand the rationale he seems to be feeling that he's wasted the past 5 years and is tired and frustrated and just wants it to be over. Personally I don't think any time has been wasted because we learn and grow with each experience we have. I support the OP in his decision to divorce but if he decides to reverse course and try to reconcile again I'll support him in that as well. I am curious though about one thing. What advice are you referring to as vengeful?


The support he received when he said he was going to send his children to his parents in Canada and moving her 13 hours away to her sisters without the children.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

OliviaG said:


> Yes, I saw that. He didn't know the extent of her affair 5 years ago and suspected it had gone further. Now he knows for sure that it had gone further. I understand.


Wow... ok


----------



## sparrow555

marduk said:


> I can't do that.
> 
> When she's right, she's right. And she's right about a lot.
> 
> Just not about this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



It is your choice if you enjoy the back and forth. To me it gets tiring after a point. 










There was a point in my life when that comic was slightly relevant to my online habits. I try to stay more detached these days.


----------



## soccermom2three

marduk said:


> Wait, so he's devastated, but pretended he wasn't?
> 
> *So he could keep his toys?*
> 
> And that's a good thing?
> 
> Why is men showing their emotional pain usually seen as a bad thing to certain women?


Is that all you're getting out of my post? His toys? Really? Obtuse, much?

Where did I say he didn't show ANY emotional pain? For over two years, he made his heartbreak, sadness and anger very clear to her and worked hard to get the marriage back. Then he did 180.

What he didn't do is act vengeful or vindictive. He didn't cut her off from money, trash talk her to the kids, play the mental mind games.


----------



## Marduk

soccermom2three said:


> Is that all you're getting out of my post? His toys? Really? Obtuse, much?
> 
> Where did I say he didn't show ANY emotional pain? For over two years, he made his heartbreak, sadness and anger very clear to her and worked hard to get the marriage back. Then he did 180.
> 
> What he didn't do is act vengeful or vindictive. He didn't cut her off from money, trash talk her to the kids, play the mental mind games.


You're the one that made keeping his toys one of your selling points. 

From what I can tell, the OP hasn't trash talked her once, and hasn't tried to take the kids from her or take money away from her. Nor is he playing mind games. So where are you getting off claiming he did?

So who's the obtuse one?

You're not going to get through to me arguing from emotion and ignroring the facts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

soccermom2three said:


> The support he received when he said he was going to send his children to his parents in Canada and moving her 13 hours away to her sisters without the children.


Oh I thought the decision to move was hers. I thought the OP said she wanted to go back to Canada to live with her sister as she never liked where they'd moved to. Also, I understood that the children were just going to stay with his parents for a short time while he got settled, whatever that entails. I took that to mean a couple of weeks or so. If he plans to send the children to live somewhere else for a long period of time then I agree that it's very very wrong. This is going to be a difficult time of adjustment for them as it is without being shuttled around like luggage.


----------



## just got it 55

huanito said:


> I see some of you are throwing judgements around as if I am sending my kids away but I would like to clear a few things.
> 
> I am not poor and am actually doing very good for myself. She doesn't want to stay here and be an single parent in fact she told me that she will give me the full custody of the kids and that there is no way around it. She even said that her sister has already 8 children and she can't burden them with hers. The kids are my responsibility.
> 
> She never liked being in the us and wanted to be close to her sister and family. I know for a fact she would rather stay with her sister and possibly find a future husband in canada and possibly settle there or do whatever possible to get close to her family for support since she feel lonely here.
> 
> As for me saying to give custody of the kids to parents or siblings in canada in no way a long term plan more like a short term plan while I situate myself since I am in a big mess right now and feel they will be in a better home now for the time being while I make some adjustments. In time I am absolutely confident that the kids will eventually be with me and that's what I want to work on unless she settles down and is able to take care of them then I don't mind if she want custody of the kids and pay child support because she never gave me any indications in the past that she is a horrible mother in fact she has been an excellent mother.


This post is why you don't jump all over someone sh!t until you know all their thoughts.

When he posted about his children staying with his parents my conclusion was it was a short term solution to his work schedule as a single parent.

And if his WW fells alone now......She will know loneliness more acutely when she is separated from her children.

She is a very broken

55


----------



## Blossom Leigh

What grace has she shown her husband?


----------



## just got it 55

OliviaG said:


> I don't think there's anything to be gained by continuing to argue about this. You (the group with the opposing viewpoint to mine) haven't convinced me, but then again, you don't need to do you? We can agree to disagree.
> 
> What really matters is what the OP thinks, and he's been won over to your way of thinking. So mission accomplished.


I don't think so OG I think by reading his post he came to that conclusion all on his own.

55


----------



## just got it 55

ButtPunch said:


> I am in agreement with the fact the OP has a right to divorce his WW.
> I am in agreement that the reconciliation was false the minute she lied to him five years ago.
> He owes her nothing imo.
> 
> However.....
> 
> Five years is a long time to show she can be faithful to the marriage. If he truly has been happy,
> for the last five years and not resentful I think the OP would be wise to do nothing for while.
> 
> Why does he have to divorce this very minute when the wounds have just been reopened?
> 
> OP Were you happy these previous 5 years or were you becoming more and more resentful over that time
> because you knew she was lying?
> 
> Nothing wrong with divorcing.....I just think decisions are being made super hastily at an emotionally vulnerable time.


OP be still..... breath and listen That pounding you hear is your heart trying to tell you something.

Never make a life altering decision on emotions Especially ones that affect your children.

What ever you do R or D take you time there is too much in the balance.

55


----------



## Blossom Leigh

OliviaG said:


> Blossom, grace means giving someone a good and costly gift that *they don't deserve and haven't earned.*
> 
> What good thing could she do for her husband *that he doesn't deserve?*
> 
> I'm kind of wishing I'd never brought up the concept of grace. The tit for tat mentality or eye-for-an-eye, whatever you want to call it, is much more the norm. It's what everyone instinctively understands. Grace is totally foreign to many, I guess.


Darlin' if you think grace is a foreign subject to me, you don't know my story. My question stands... where is the grace for her husband?


----------



## just got it 55

soccermom2three said:


> My brother in law is getting 50/50 custody, is paying no alimony or child support, keeping his retirement, keeping the house and all the toys, (motorcycles, boat, jet ski, 5th wheel), all because he kept his mouth shut and didn't try to play games. No attorney fees, just mediation
> 
> I'm pretty sure if he would've followed the vengeful advice given here, the above wouldn't have happened.


SM23 you are correct but that's a strategy based on economics

Which well.... at the end of the day is what it is ultimately all about

So the old question Do you want to be right ?(Getting your revenge) or be happy (keeping your half of the marital assets) and seeing your children 50/50.

55


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Quote:
> Originally Posted *by Blossom Leigh* View Post
> What grace has she shown her husband?
> 
> *By Olivia*
> Blossom, grace means giving someone a good and costly *gift that they don't deserve and haven't earned.*
> 
> What good thing could she do for her husband *that he doesn't deserve?*
> 
> I'm kind of wishing I'd never brought up the concept of grace. The tit for tat mentality or eye-for-an-eye, whatever you want to call it, is much more the norm. It's what everyone instinctively understands. Grace is totally foreign to many, I guess.




*Olivia I am glad you brought up grace! * 

Huanito and his wife are in a heap of trouble in their marriage and if they are ever going to get this marriage back in good condition they are going to need grace as one tool. Some posters have deemed Huanito’s wife as unworthy and having gone past the line of receiving R; some see it the opposite. Grace is extremely difficult, rare, and takes enormous strength but can be given no matter which way they choose to go.

*What I see are three innocent children that need to be put first before Huanito and his wife’s emotional state*. These parents have forfeited their rights to NOT put their children first when they took the giant step to have these children together. *They now have to sacrifice for the best of the children just like all good parents do*. 


Thanks again Olivia for mentioning something that is so very vital and can help make bad situation better.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> What grace has she shown her husband?


From his _What If???_ thread in 2012:


_To answer some of the question. The time that we were seperated for 5 month she was staying with her sister where she didnt have any contact with the OM. Technically we were only seperated for about 2 month as the first three month she was staying with her sister to help her out because she had a newborn and needed help but we got into a fight becaue of me. *I did kind of blow a small argument out of porportion because of what I was already feeling inside and once she found out she was upset because she felt no matter what she does i'll keep bringing him up and that its hard for me to move on. *

*The confrontation was heated because of my suspision I forcefully took the phone from her and seen the text. At that point I blew up and destroyed everything in our house where the whole time she was trying to wrap herself around me telling me that she loved me. I immediatly exposed her to both family.*

She gave me some bull**** excuse that i didnt buy but finally told me that she was just testing him to see how far he would take the conversation (he is a very shy and nice person and normally cannot even look girls in the eyes without looking down and I would have never thought he would go along with the sexting espcially given the cercumstances that she was married and me and him are close relative).

*I confronted the OM on multiple occations but he chose to stay silent and avoid me and I put him through financial burden by getting the family to stop giving him any assistance. He had to sell his new car to buy a piece of **** car just to be able to afford his insurance. I also threatened him soo much that the family gave up on it and told me If I hurt him I will only be ruining my future.*

*As for the wife I put her trough so much. I did everything except put my hand on her. I took her clothes and threw it outside while she was begged me to stay and took the kids from her. It got soo bad that all her family were against her getting back with me and even threatned to cut ties with her if she did. She came back to me without telling them and she didnt speak with her family for almost two months. She said to them that she would not complain to them about anything I do to her and that it is her choice to be with me and put up with me.*_


----------



## Marduk

Scratching my head here.

With all that in play, they should stay together for the sake of the children because _____ ?

Surely they'd both be better off without each other, and have lessons to learn, and the kids would get two parents that were better off as part of the deal. In two different homes, sure.

I'd sure as hell want to be raised with two separate happy parents rather than two unhappy parents that were together just because they thought it would be better for me.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Man, came to check why it suddenly jumped to 10 pages. TAM sides have been drawn... again.

Good luck H. Think of the kids, but make sure you are content as well.


----------



## jld

OliviaG said:


> Wow, I did not know all of that.


I only found out a little bit ago, when I looked at his old threads.


----------



## Anon Pink

Happilymarried25 said:


> This thread is getting me angry. That you would keep your children away from their Mother is wrong. Stop thinking about your ego and think about what is best for your children. Doing this will damage them. They are going from being with their Mom full time to never seeing her. For the past 5 years you lived with, loved, made love and had a baby with your wife knowing she cheated on you. Then she tells you (which was a BIG mistake on her part) and now you want to break up your family. She has been a great wife and Mom for 5 years. You had forgiven her. You should stay married and stay a family.


And...stay the hell out of TAM!

Angry bitter vengeful and violent, but she is a POS because she had an affair and didn't disclose. 

OP, TAM broherd likes to think there is one way and only one way to do things regarding affairs. They're wrong. They are a bunch of bitter angry men who relive their pain each and every time they look into a new thread about a cheating wife. They bring up their own pain and anguish and they push the OP to follow their lead.

I'm telling you will regret being the force that separates your children from their mother. Might not today or next week, but soon they will hate you for pushing their mother out and the only way to combat that is by trash talking their mother, which will make you look even smaller in their eyes.

You really should slow down and stop posting here.


----------



## Acoa

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding going on in this thread. 

From what I can see, 5 years ago they separated. She assured him it was only an EA, and that is was over. He suspected it was a PA, but accepted it for what it was and they reconciled. This was him extending her grace. 

I suspect if he had found out that the events that lead up to the separation included a PA, he wouldn't be steaming full ahead toward D. It's the fact that while they were separated, and she was pleading to come home and claiming it was "only" an EA, she was still doing the vertical mambo with POSOM. She was claiming no PA, then going and getting her hole filled. It's remorseless and disgusting. And how many visits over the past 5 years did she make back home without him? Every visit back was another opportunity for her and OM. 

And he is not separating the kids from anyone. He is getting away from a lying an manipulative woman who will say anything to get what she wants. The fact mommy and daddy don't live together is a result of him protecting himself. The fact she wants to move away isn't under his control. If she had any sense she would get an apartment close by and try to make a joint custody arrangement work. But she won't, because she is selfish and remorseless. 

But maybe I'm the one misunderstanding things. In any case, it sure would be nice if we stuck to things that might help the OP.

Huanito, I hope you are taking care of yourself, and your children. Breathe and think about what the best living situation would look like for them and you. There is no cookie cutter answer that's best for every family. Use what you know about yours to decide what is best, then focus your energy on making it happen. Doesn't really matter if she likes it. If your heart and mind are in the right place, and you have a good lawyer, it's amazing what can be done. I'm 2 years down the road from where you are at. Happily divorced, alimony is finished, I have custody of the kids and they see mom a couple times a week. I gave her the marital home in the D, but will rent it from her until our youngest is out of high school. It's a weird situation, but it works for us. Don't be afraid to think out of the box. Just because it's weird doesn't mean it can't work great.


----------



## Anon Pink

marduk said:


> Scratching my head here.
> 
> With all that in play, they should stay together for the sake of the children because _____ ?
> 
> Surely they'd both be better off without each other, and have lessons to learn, and the kids would get two parents that were better off as part of the deal. In two different homes, sure.
> 
> I'd sure as hell want to be raised with two separate happy parents rather than two unhappy parents that were together just because they thought it would be better for me.


But they haven't been unhappy for the past 5 years.

No Marduk, given his behavior and her behavior and the fact that they've been working together and being in love even after the events detailed in jld's post is proof that they should stay together. That they are better together than apart. That together they work better than they do separately.


----------



## jld

Anon Pink said:


> But they haven't been unhappy for the past 5 years.
> 
> No Marduk, given his behavior and her behavior and the fact that they've been working together and being in love even after the events detailed in jld's post is proof that they should stay together. That they are better together than apart. That together they work better than they do separately.


Do you think she should extend him grace _again,_ AP? 

How can she ever feel secure with a man who would act on the kind of advice he has been given here?


----------



## ButtPunch

Anon Pink said:


> And...stay the hell out of TAM!
> 
> Angry bitter vengeful and violent, but she is a POS because she had an affair and didn't disclose.
> 
> OP, TAM broherd likes to think there is one way and only one way to do things regarding affairs. They're wrong. They are a bunch of bitter angry men who relive their pain each and every time they look into a new thread about a cheating wife. They bring up their own pain and anguish and they push the OP to follow their lead.
> 
> I'm telling you will regret being the force that separates your children from their mother. Might not today or next week, but soon they will hate you for pushing their mother out and the only way to combat that is by trash talking their mother, which will make you look even smaller in their eyes.
> 
> You really should slow down and stop posting here.


No this is an angry bitter post.

You don't like someone's pov so you belittle it and name call.

Every single time you do this.


----------



## convert

Anon Pink said:


> But they haven't been unhappy for the past 5 years.
> 
> No Marduk, given his behavior and her behavior and the fact that they've been working together and being in love *even after the events detailed in jld's post is proof that they should stay together. That they are better together than apart.* That together they work better than they do separately.


I thought the opposite and I am a pro r guy.


----------



## Decorum

jld said:


> Do you think she should extend him grace _again,_ AP?
> 
> How can she ever feel secure with a man who would act on the kind of advice he has been given here?


I also think things went off the rails here but this is just crass trolling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

You aren't confused Acoa. There are many agendas and judgements floating around in this thread from many sides.It is pretty simple, sometimes honesty gets you smacked in the mouth with no rewards and many consequences.


----------



## Decorum

Anon Pink said:


> But they haven't been unhappy for the past 5 years.
> 
> No Marduk, given his behavior and her behavior and the fact that they've been working together and being in love even after the events detailed in jld's post is proof that they should stay together. That they are better together than apart. That together they work better than they do separately.


His flip was very disturbing. I was hoping he would cool off a bit, I think he needs to reconsider.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Anon Pink said:


> But they haven't been unhappy for the past 5 years.
> 
> No Marduk, given his behavior and her behavior and the fact that they've been working together and being in love even after the events detailed in jld's post is proof that they should stay together. That they are better together than apart. That together they work better than they do separately.


Um... What?

If he flipped out like that when he thought it was just an EA what do you think they were risking for five years if he would have found out on his own?

Or now? It's a time bomb situation.

Besides... Look at the deal. She still blames him for her affair, and blames him for the marriage problems, refuses to work while he has two jobs.

That dog just isn't gonna hunt for long.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Quote:
> Originally *Posted by Mr Blunt* View Post
> 
> Olivia I am glad you brought up grace!
> 
> Huanito and his wife are in a heap of trouble in their marriage and if they are ever going to get this marriage back in good condition they are going to need grace as one tool. Some posters have deemed Huanito’s wife as unworthy and having gone past the line of receiving R; some see it the opposite. Grace is extremely difficult, rare, and takes enormous strength but can be given no matter which way they choose to go.
> 
> What I see are three innocent children that need to be put first before Huanito and his wife’s emotional state. These parents have forfeited their rights to NOT put their children first when they took the giant step to have these children together. They now have to sacrifice for the best of the children just like all good parents do.
> 
> 
> Thanks again Olivia for mentioning something that is so very vital and can help make bad situation better.
> 
> 
> *By Olivia*
> Mr Blunt, does it ever feel good to be understood!
> 
> I agree, and your advice is worth much more to the OP than my observations because if I understand correctly, you've lived it yourself.
> 
> I hope he reads your posts and takes them to heart before he makes any decisions.


Olivia, I know that you understand grace as I have read many of your posts.

Yes Olivia, I lived it myself. However, *I do not deserve any metals because I had to get a lot of help before I was able to dish out a morsel of grace.* I had to humble myself and realize that I wanted grace for myself before I could give my ww grace. It was so easy to point out that her betrayal was a complete unjustified molestation of our love and I had no problem convincing others that she was unworthy of reconciliation. My teenage daughter even told me to go get another woman to teach her a lesson!

Then some reality set in. We had three children, she was a broken woman, I was miserable, and I wanted to heal and if possible gain in some areas through this tragedy. I was so motivated to get better that I would make a badger look lazy. I went to three different phycologist marriage counselors and then read lots of books and ordered tapes to listen to marriage therapist. I would get the tapes, get in my car, and drive in the country for hours listening to those tapes. One tape that started me thinking different was a tape that was titled “Infidelity”. I was eager to get that tape because I was sure that it would again tell me how wrong she was and would make me look like the good guy again. Instead the tape asked me if I had addressed the issue of my infidelity to God! What, I did not expect that! After listening to the tape I realized that I put my money making ahead of God, I put my pride ahead of God, I excused my actions and thoughts that were contrary to God’s ways, and had to face my selfishness that hurt my wife for years. That is when I started learning about grace.* I sure wanted grace for myself but did not want to consider grace for my betraying wife even though I had betrayed God. Talk about a hypocrite!*

Long story short, I was finally able to do better, be less of a hypocrite, give a morsel of grace to my wife and we have had a good marriage for over 20 years and our children are super close to both of us. *I am very grateful for my life and am very contented.*


----------



## jld

huanito said:


> She said that although she did me wrong she tried to correct her wrong by trying to do everything right the last 5 years and it has completely broken her heart that I was so quick to call and insist divorce. *She says she doesn't know how she could feel secure in this marriage knowing how quick I am able to let her go *yet she doesn't want to be with anyone but me and that I will always be in her heart.


He was only "quick to let her go" because of the advice he got from many posters here. He came here asking how to let his hurt go, not to have it stoked.

Huanito, take it all back. Take back everything you said to her a few days ago because of what you were ill-advised by some here. Go to your wife and ask her forgiveness. Ask your children's, too, for what you may have done to them. 

And in the meantime, I hope those posters will be asking yours.


----------



## Marduk

Anon Pink said:


> And...stay the hell out of TAM!
> 
> Angry bitter vengeful and violent, but she is a POS because she had an affair and didn't disclose.
> 
> OP, TAM broherd likes to think there is one way and only one way to do things regarding affairs. They're wrong. They are a bunch of bitter angry men who relive their pain each and every time they look into a new thread about a cheating wife. They bring up their own pain and anguish and they push the OP to follow their lead.
> 
> I'm telling you will regret being the force that separates your children from their mother. Might not today or next week, but soon they will hate you for pushing their mother out and the only way to combat that is by trash talking their mother, which will make you look even smaller in their eyes.
> 
> You really should slow down and stop posting here.


You OK, AP?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> From his _What If???_ thread in 2012:
> 
> 
> _To answer some of the question. The time that we were seperated for 5 month she was staying with her sister where she didnt have any contact with the OM. Technically we were only seperated for about 2 month as the first three month she was staying with her sister to help her out because she had a newborn and needed help but we got into a fight becaue of me. *I did kind of blow a small argument out of porportion because of what I was already feeling inside and once she found out she was upset because she felt no matter what she does i'll keep bringing him up and that its hard for me to move on. *
> 
> *The confrontation was heated because of my suspision I forcefully took the phone from her and seen the text. At that point I blew up and destroyed everything in our house where the whole time she was trying to wrap herself around me telling me that she loved me. I immediatly exposed her to both family.*
> 
> She gave me some bull**** excuse that i didnt buy but finally told me that she was just testing him to see how far he would take the conversation (he is a very shy and nice person and normally cannot even look girls in the eyes without looking down and I would have never thought he would go along with the sexting espcially given the cercumstances that she was married and me and him are close relative).
> 
> *I confronted the OM on multiple occations but he chose to stay silent and avoid me and I put him through financial burden by getting the family to stop giving him any assistance. He had to sell his new car to buy a piece of **** car just to be able to afford his insurance. I also threatened him soo much that the family gave up on it and told me If I hurt him I will only be ruining my future.*
> 
> *As for the wife I put her trough so much. I did everything except put my hand on her. I took her clothes and threw it outside while she was begged me to stay and took the kids from her. It got soo bad that all her family were against her getting back with me and even threatned to cut ties with her if she did. She came back to me without telling them and she didnt speak with her family for almost two months. She said to them that she would not complain to them about anything I do to her and that it is her choice to be with me and put up with me.*_


If you think picking out the post where he initially reacted to the realization of his wife cheating paints him as a bad man, I've got news for you. When my H and I went though our affair recovery class with six other couples, NO ONE (BS's) on that call handled Discovery Day on that call as calm as I did.... ALL of them, all women by the way, were highly destructive in the face of one of the greatest pains they have ever known. They were all SHOCKED to find out that I didn't go off the rails. But see I walk a different path because I try my hardest to not be destructive no matter HOW bad I'm hurting. But this reaction that you have quoted here is not uncommon nor should it be taken as a whole that he is a bad man. I do not condone it, but I understand it.

Therefore... my question still stands... where is the grace she has shown her husband because at the time this happened she was a lying cheater. And manipulated to keep herself in his space, that's not extending grace, that's covering her own a$$. 

Now is this was his norm... that's a different subject. OP was this your norm?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

marduk said:


> You OK, AP?


This is normal when the gender lines have been drawn. You just take breaks and miss these mini meltdowns. If she would have made her post gender neutral, I would have agreed completely. I've seen both sides lose their collective minds, when an OP doesn't follow their lead. Yes, angry bitter women and angry bitter men. .


----------



## ButtPunch

phillybeffandswiss said:


> This is normal when the gender lines have been drawn. You just take breaks and miss these mini meltdowns. If she would have made her post gender neutral, I would have agreed completely. I've seen both sides lose their collective minds, when an OP doesn't follow their lead. Yes, angry bitter women and angry bitter men. .


Well....I'm in the middle. I think he needs to sit on his hands for a little while.


----------



## huanito

I have read all your posts and to some extent I can agree with all of you. I am writing this post to try to clarify the current situation as best as I can and then feel free to comment.

First and foremost my wife is still hesitant to tell me the complete truth and details of everything that happened back then which I started to actively seek and stated that it maybe the only slim chance of going on with this marriage. she is flip flopping, she is testing me with words to see how I am reacting to them and then going back on them. At this point she is facing the delima of telling the truth which could very well end our relationship based on how I have reacted now and in the past and not telling the truth again and risk living in in guilt again because I kept telling her I would not be able to forgive her for something she has not fully disclosed to me to forgive.

Bottom line is she wants me to forgive her with no strings attached and let bygones be bygones and look into how I'm depriving the kids of a happy home and divorcing a wife and a mother who tried to correct her wrong in anyway possible the last couple of years.

For the sake of the kids I have even considered to let bygones be bygones and move on with this marriage a third time without getting the complete truth to my satisfaction to put everything to rest but that is not my only delima.

I cannot help but feel she is trying to be with me not only to keep the kids with both parents and that she want to work things out with me but because she has less options on how to move forward. She feels very vulnerable because she had always been dependent on me. I feel if she had family in the states or see that she had more opportunities in terms of being self sufficient she would have been more at ease moving forward with a divorce.

Sensing what she is feeling and knowing that she has been a stay at home mom for the whole term of our marriage and me personally not being able to just kick her to curb and fight supporting her because of her infidelity I told her that I will give her spousal support for a year while she tries to be independent.

She started to ask me questions to get reassurance that I will keep my promise and not change my mind after the divorce while at the same time saying she still wants to be with me. she is flip flopping.

In conclusion in trying to work on this marriage for the sake of the kids I feel like I am not only giving away a peace of mind that I am getting back in a healthy and honest relationship but also risking that deep down in the future if she is somehow able to be more self sufficient she me do me wrong again and not tell me the truth or easily let me walk out again because she is more stable and she doesn't need me.

The statements above are speculations of what she might do in the future but it is somewhat backed up with what she is currently doing now or did in the past. I have ignored my gut instinct so many times in the past and regretted them so many times. I am done regretting and I feel like must move forward with what I deep down and honestly believe is the best outcome which is a divorce and out of this relationship 

I would also like to mention again that I am not forcing her to move 13 hours away that is her decision and I am not sending my kids away to stay with relatives forever. As far as I am concerned the kids in the long term will either stay with their mother if she chooses to or with their father if she doesnt. I am only taking about the short term while we are both adjusting to a new life apart and what I mean by adjusting well at least for me to a certain extent is while I make some changes financially. No matter what the adjustments are it doesn't matter because I don't see how I am punishing my kids by sending them to a good home for the short term while I ready myself for a life of single fatherhood.


----------



## sidney2718

GusPolinski said:


> One would hope that the more profound lesson would be to not become a wayward spouse in the first place.
> 
> And if that's not a profound enough, here's another lesson...
> 
> Reconciliation is a gift extended to a wayward by the grace of his or her betrayed. No wayward is _owed_ reconciliation, and no betrayed deserves a _false_ reconciliation.


Strange as it is to say, I agree with you. This case is a bad example. But reading the threadstart post shows that they were in some sort of reconciliation. The wife seemed to suffer from a bad conscience and wanted to come clean.

What would have happened if she'd NOT have come clean. Probably nothing. The R would have gone on as it had for the last bunch of years.

That was my point. But I used too much sarcasm for TAM.


----------



## Marduk

sidney2718 said:


> Strange as it is to say, I agree with you. This case is a bad example. But reading the threadstart post shows that they were in some sort of reconciliation. The wife seemed to suffer from a bad conscience and wanted to come clean.
> 
> What would have happened if she'd NOT have come clean. Probably nothing. The R would have gone on as it had for the last bunch of years.
> 
> That was my point. But I used too much sarcasm for TAM.


How can you possibly stand behind that?

What if he "suddenly" realized he had an STD? Her 'change of heart' is gonna get rid of that?

Or one of his kids wasn't even his?

What if he came across evidence of the affair? Or the other man stepped forward? 

There is also zero evidence she actually regrets the affair. She still blames him for it! That alone tells me she learned nothing from it. 

Man, this chick has been playing with fire for five years with a book of matches that she didn't own. In a room full of fireworks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

ButtPunch said:


> Well....I'm in the middle. I think he needs to sit on his hands for a little while.


That's fine, I can understand the frustration of 5 years with a truth and suddenly being back to zero because it is a lie.
If it took 5 years for her to feel safe, it stands to reason the same argument applies to OP. I'm not going to engage in putting any more scenarios into his head, but I know how it looks to me.


----------



## GusPolinski

sidney2718 said:


> Strange as it is to say, I agree with you. This case is a bad example. But reading the threadstart post shows that they were in some sort of reconciliation.


Yep, a false one.



sidney2718 said:


> The wife seemed to suffer from a bad conscience and wanted to come clean.
> 
> What would have happened if she'd NOT have come clean. Probably nothing. The R would have gone on as it had for the last bunch of years.


They'd have likely continued along in their false reconciliation, yes.



sidney2718 said:


> That was my point. But I used too much sarcasm for TAM.


But just the riiiiight amount of conditional morality.


----------



## sidney2718

GusPolinski said:


> Incorrect.
> 
> She betrayed him again when she agreed to reconcile w/o first volunteering -- or at least admitting to -- the truth that SHE KNEW had a greater chance of leading to a different outcome.


You are saying that she should have caused a divorce back at the start? In what way was that good for her?



> One could also make a reasonable case for the notion that each and every day that she failed to disclose the truth to him amounted to yet another betrayal.


Now now. Why not every hour?



> Oh, and I'm sure it dawned on her that bringing another kid into the fold couldn't hurt her chances either.


Or she thought that the risk of divorce was over, that their relationship was sound.



> All of this is _at least_ manipulation. And that, combined w/ her protracted refusal to disclose the truth in order to ensure a more favorable outcome for herself IS betrayal.


Reread that last sentence. Isn't that exactly what most folks do in most situations?

All in all, the evidence here is that she's being divorced for coming clean. I can understand that. Some men feel very possessive of their wives and need to control most aspects of their wives' lives. The OP's quick decision to divorce seems to me to have been taken way too quickly and, down the line, it may cause him some pain.

Still, he is within his rights. And she has learned a lesson. The wrong lesson (in my opinion) but still a lesson.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

huanito said:


> I have read all your posts and to some extent I can agree with all of you. I am writing this post to try to clarify the current situation as best as I can and then feel free to comment.
> 
> First and foremost my wife is still hesitant to tell me the complete truth and details of everything that happened back then which I started to actively seek and stated that it maybe the only slim chance of going on with this marriage. she is flip flopping, she is testing me with words to see how I am reacting to them and then going back on them. At this point she is facing the delima of telling the truth which could very well end our relationship based on how I have reacted now and in the past and not telling the truth again and risk living in in guilt again because I kept telling her I would not be able to forgive her for something she has not fully disclosed to me to forgive.
> 
> Bottom line is she wants me to forgive her with no strings attached and let bygones be bygones and look into how I'm depriving the kids of a happy home and divorcing a wife and a mother who tried to correct her wrong in anyway possible the last couple of years.
> 
> For the sake of the kids I have even considered to let bygones be bygones and move on with this marriage a third time without getting the complete truth to my satisfaction to put everything to rest but that is not my only delima.
> 
> I cannot help but feel she is trying to be with me not only to keep the kids with both parents and that she want to work things out with me but because she has less options on how to move forward. She feels very vulnerable because she had always been dependent on me. I feel if she had family in the states or see that she had more opportunities in terms of being self sufficient she would have been more at ease moving forward with a divorce.
> 
> Sensing what she is feeling and knowing that she has been a stay at home mom for the whole term of our marriage and me personally not being able to just kick her to curb and fight supporting her because of her infidelity I told her that I will give her spousal support for a year while she tries to be independent.
> 
> She started to ask me questions to get reassurance that I will keep my promise and not change my mind after the divorce while at the same time saying she still wants to be with me. she is flip flopping.
> 
> In conclusion in trying to work on this marriage for the sake of the kids I feel like I am not only giving away a peace of mind that I am getting back in a healthy and honest relationship but also risking that deep down in the future if she is somehow able to be more self sufficient she me do me wrong again and not tell me the truth or easily let me walk out again because she is more stable and she doesn't need me.
> 
> The statements above are speculations of what she might do in the future but it is somewhat backed up with what she is currently doing now or did in the past. I have ignored my gut instinct so many times in the past and regretted them so many times. I am done regretting and I feel like must move forward with what I deep down and honestly believe is the best outcome which is a divorce and out of this relationship
> 
> I would also like to mention again that I am not forcing her to move 13 hours away that is her decision and I am not sending my kids away to stay with relatives forever. As far as I am concerned the kids in the long term will either stay with their mother if she chooses to or with their father if she doesnt. I am only taking about the short term while we are both adjusting to a new life apart and what I mean by adjusting well at least for me to a certain extent is while I make some changes financially. No matter what the adjustments are it doesn't matter because I don't see how I am punishing my kids by sending them to a good home for the short term while I ready myself for a life of single fatherhood.


No, she isn't flip flopping at all, she told you how she feels all through your post. Good luck dude, I hope you find your answers, but it won't happen in this thread until people calm down.


----------



## huanito

Jld I thank you for bringing up my previous what if posts I can't read anymore for now I need a break. Although they are not in correct sequence I can honestly say that I avoided visiting my old post so my words doesn't remind me of all the pain I truly felt at the time and now that you forced it in front of me I am happy you did but I am in tears and reliving the agony of how I felt that with the added agony now of her revealing that she slept with him during that time while I was feeling that. My heart just shattered into dust.


----------



## sidney2718

GusPolinski said:


> Here's what you don't get to see from the other side of a monitor...
> 
> I was sad when he announced his decision to divorce.
> 
> Thinking about it now still makes me sad.
> 
> Because it IS sad.
> 
> You're talking to a guy that had to tell his mother to divorce his father and urged his SIL to divorce his brother. Infidelity in both cases.
> 
> I'm not new to this.
> 
> Those of us that have been at this for longer than a couple of weeks realize that we're not going to sway the opinion of the people w/ whom we debate these things. That's not why we do it.
> 
> We do it so that those that HAVEN'T been around for quite so long are afforded a perspective that allows them to view the gravity of their situation through a lens of reason that will enable them to think the _*details* of their situation_ through to their logical end.
> 
> We're not necessarily trying to convince anyone to divorce; rather, we're trying to convince everyone to look at everything w/ both eyes open.


But if you go back and read the first few responses to the OP's post, you see that folks are posting opinions based on predetermined opinions.

You are often an exception and you do live up to your goals. But by the same token there are legitimate differences of opinions here.


----------



## sidney2718

Dyokemm said:


> I know of a guy (a cousin of one of my really close friends) who is a total POS serial cheater who uses this excuse to continuously gaslight and TT his BW.
> 
> It's complete bullsh*t.....he does it because if she ever discovered all of the sh*t he has been up to (from what my friend has told me), she would probably overcome her doormat, co-dependent tendencies and D his worthless a**.


Good point, but the wife here seems not to have been a serial cheater.


----------



## GusPolinski

sidney2718 said:


> You are saying that she should have caused a divorce back at the start? In what way was that good for her?


I'd first point out that there's no guarantee that wouldn't taken place.

And that doesn't matter either way, because telling the truth was the right thing to do.



sidney2718 said:


> Now now. Why not every hour?


That's fine. Let's go w/ that.



sidney2718 said:


> Or she thought that the risk of divorce was over, that their relationship was sound.


IOW, once her best interests have been assured, it's time for honesty.

What a horrible lesson for her children.

For _anyone's_ children, actually.



sidney2718 said:


> Reread that last sentence. Isn't that exactly what most folks do in most situations?


I sincerely hope not.



sidney2718 said:


> All in all, the evidence here is that she's being divorced for coming clean. I can understand that. Some men feel very possessive of their wives and need to control most aspects of their wives' lives.


LOL. Nice try.



sidney2718 said:


> The OP's quick decision to divorce seems to me to have been taken way too quickly and, down the line, it may cause him some pain.


That's entirely possible, and that's why I'd urge him to first get to the point where he's not tearing his hair out and THEN come to do decision.



sidney2718 said:


> Still, he is within his rights. And she has learned a lesson. The wrong lesson (in my opinion) but still a lesson.


I've not read anything that would suggest that she's learned anything of value.


----------



## sidney2718

marduk said:


> Exactly who is punishing the children here?
> 
> If I punch somebody in the face and go to jail, is the state punishing my children?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Minor off-topic quibble: Actually, the state IS punishing your children. Some countries have jail facilities that allow mothers and children to be together some of the time. 

The idea is to avoid a new generation of ruined desperate children.


----------



## Marduk

sidney2718 said:


> Minor off-topic quibble: Actually, the state IS punishing your children. Some countries have jail facilities that allow mothers and children to be together some of the time.
> 
> The idea is to avoid a new generation of ruined desperate children.


Logical fallacy. 

Mitigating the damaged caused by stupid parenting by the state does not mean that the state is punishing them by enacting consequences for the stupid parents.

I'm surprised by you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> From his _What If???_ thread in 2012:
> 
> 
> _To answer some of the question. The time that we were seperated for 5 month she was staying with her sister where she didnt have any contact with the OM. Technically we were only seperated for about 2 month as the first three month she was staying with her sister to help her out because she had a newborn and needed help but we got into a fight becaue of me. *I did kind of blow a small argument out of porportion because of what I was already feeling inside and once she found out she was upset because she felt no matter what she does i'll keep bringing him up and that its hard for me to move on. *
> 
> *The confrontation was heated because of my suspision I forcefully took the phone from her and seen the text. At that point I blew up and destroyed everything in our house where the whole time she was trying to wrap herself around me telling me that she loved me. I immediatly exposed her to both family.*
> 
> She gave me some bull**** excuse that i didnt buy but finally told me that she was just testing him to see how far he would take the conversation (he is a very shy and nice person and normally cannot even look girls in the eyes without looking down and I would have never thought he would go along with the sexting espcially given the cercumstances that she was married and me and him are close relative).
> 
> *I confronted the OM on multiple occations but he chose to stay silent and avoid me and I put him through financial burden by getting the family to stop giving him any assistance. He had to sell his new car to buy a piece of **** car just to be able to afford his insurance. I also threatened him soo much that the family gave up on it and told me If I hurt him I will only be ruining my future.*
> 
> *As for the wife I put her trough so much. I did everything except put my hand on her. I took her clothes and threw it outside while she was begged me to stay and took the kids from her. It got soo bad that all her family were against her getting back with me and even threatned to cut ties with her if she did. She came back to me without telling them and she didnt speak with her family for almost two months. She said to them that she would not complain to them about anything I do to her and that it is her choice to be with me and put up with me.*_


That is......disturbing


----------



## sidney2718

marduk said:


> Um... What?
> 
> If he flipped out like that when he thought it was just an EA what do you think they were risking for five years if he would have found out on his own?
> 
> Or now? It's a time bomb situation.
> 
> Besides... Look at the deal. She still blames him for her affair, and blames him for the marriage problems, refuses to work while he has two jobs.
> 
> That dog just isn't gonna hunt for long.


You may be right. But he comes across as a person who is very difficult to live with. He's got anger management issues. And for all I know he's now promised his wife that she'll never see her kids again.

There are times when a spouse is impossible to live with.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Yes, it is disturbing and it bothers me a ton. Still, it is strange how even we men have our own inherent gender bias. He did many of the things I have read some women do, or have been recommended to do by posters on this website, to their cheating husbands and many are all "yeah, he deserved that <insert foul language> for being a cheater." I don't like it from anyone, but it is interesting to watch the offense people are taking because a man reacted...............

Naw, no baiting allowed.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

You're all wasting your time arguing with them. Conventional thinking and common sense run for the hills when the "Glossy Posse" comes a ridin' into town.

Trying to buff 'n' shine even the most tarnished WW's to an angelic, pristine glow.

For you see, no matter how far they had fallen, how badly they may have cheated, there's always the same common denominator... A Husband that caused it ALL.

Every one of his actions and inactions must have surely been the source of why she did what she had done.

Men, huh. If we could teach shower-heads to mow the lawn, we wouldn't even need them.


----------



## ConanHub

bfree said:


> That is......disturbing


I'm in the OP goes to IC camp. Have been since he radically switched directions.


I think he should have enacted real R this time so I was upset when he was rug sweeping but when he ended it, I got the sense he isn't ok.

Nothing wrong with not being ok here but shouldn't be making decisions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

huanito said:


> I have read all your posts and to some extent I can agree with all of you. I am writing this post to try to clarify the current situation as best as I can and then feel free to comment.
> 
> First and foremost my wife is still hesitant to tell me the complete truth and details of everything that happened back then which I started to actively seek and stated that it maybe the only slim chance of going on with this marriage. she is flip flopping, she is testing me with words to see how I am reacting to them and then going back on them. At this point she is facing the delima of telling the truth which could very well end our relationship based on how I have reacted now and in the past and not telling the truth again and risk living in in guilt again because I kept telling her I would not be able to forgive her for something she has not fully disclosed to me to forgive.
> 
> Bottom line is she wants me to forgive her with no strings attached and let bygones be bygones and look into how I'm depriving the kids of a happy home and divorcing a wife and a mother who tried to correct her wrong in anyway possible the last couple of years.
> 
> For the sake of the kids I have even considered to let bygones be bygones and move on with this marriage a third time without getting the complete truth to my satisfaction to put everything to rest but that is not my only delima.
> 
> I cannot help but feel she is trying to be with me not only to keep the kids with both parents and that she want to work things out with me but because she has less options on how to move forward. She feels very vulnerable because she had always been dependent on me. I feel if she had family in the states or see that she had more opportunities in terms of being self sufficient she would have been more at ease moving forward with a divorce.
> 
> Sensing what she is feeling and knowing that she has been a stay at home mom for the whole term of our marriage and me personally not being able to just kick her to curb and fight supporting her because of her infidelity I told her that I will give her spousal support for a year while she tries to be independent.
> 
> She started to ask me questions to get reassurance that I will keep my promise and not change my mind after the divorce while at the same time saying she still wants to be with me. she is flip flopping.
> 
> In conclusion in trying to work on this marriage for the sake of the kids I feel like I am not only giving away a peace of mind that I am getting back in a healthy and honest relationship but also risking that deep down in the future if she is somehow able to be more self sufficient she me do me wrong again and not tell me the truth or easily let me walk out again because she is more stable and she doesn't need me.
> 
> The statements above are speculations of what she might do in the future but it is somewhat backed up with what she is currently doing now or did in the past. I have ignored my gut instinct so many times in the past and regretted them so many times. I am done regretting and I feel like must move forward with what I deep down and honestly believe is the best outcome which is a divorce and out of this relationship
> 
> I would also like to mention again that I am not forcing her to move 13 hours away that is her decision and I am not sending my kids away to stay with relatives forever. As far as I am concerned the kids in the long term will either stay with their mother if she chooses to or with their father if she doesnt. I am only taking about the short term while we are both adjusting to a new life apart and what I mean by adjusting well at least for me to a certain extent is while I make some changes financially. No matter what the adjustments are it doesn't matter because I don't see how I am punishing my kids by sending them to a good home for the short term while I ready myself for a life of single fatherhood.


Just some quick random thoughts. Your wife is not flip-flopping, she's in survival mode. Her whole life is being turned upside down and inside out. You can say it all may be of her own making but that doesn't negate human nature. She trying to figure out how she'll even exist. You cannot really fault her for that.

She doesn't feel safe to disclose the entire truth. You acknowledge this but you aren't giving her a clear path toward the transparency. If you don't think that you can keep your emotions in check might I suggest that you find a counselor, clergy, or trusted friend (someone she trusts) to talk with and ensure her well being, both physical and emotional.

This is a very volatile situation, one that both of you have contributed to in some ways. For the sake of the children I urge you and your wife to take some time and allow things to process before reaching any conclusions. Your children deserve level headed parents that will find a way through this that leads to the least harmful settlement regardless of whether this end in divorce or reconciliation.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I am now caught up on your other threads. No wonder you are broken, you have a ton of guilt you need to talk out with a counselor. Now I understand why you are having such a hard time. I have a close relative I consider a good friend as well. If I ever found out he and my wife did anything I might have reacted as ugly as you did, even if all I found was sexting.

How you lived with that for five years I'll never know. I completely understand why you are ready to pull the plug and flush the last 5 years. I think you should talk with someone who has no vested interest, gender bias or anger about infidelity to get a true neutral point. You might be surprised at the answer you receive. Oh and yes, it is okay to walk away from this mess. You guys have been doing awful stuff for the span of five years, this is unhealthy for the kids if it continues.


----------



## huanito

I am not sure everyone he is in understanding of what happened. Here is a very short summary.

the wife and OM have been contacting each other for a while and although at times I was suspicious and brought this up to her she said they were just friends and I never looked into it further because he is also a relative that I trusted soo much.

2011
I sent her to canada to stay with her sister for two month in the summer. After not getting any call from her and feeling neglected I made a post on this forum and I was told your marriage is in trouble and go now and pick her up. I did but she said if I loved her I would let her stay because she needed the vacation so I cone back alone.

A month later I picked her up. I told her I don't think I can be alone every summer and she said that she has to go every summer because she is lonely here all year with no family.

a week after I get back she was in a room texting and after a brief conversation I was suspecious so I took the phone from her and locked myself in the room and seen the phone calls and the sexting about loving each other, missing each other and wanting to have sex and please each explicitly. (No actual admitting of any PA that actually occured)

I went crazy and when I asked her way the only excuse she gave me is she was intentionally doing it to hurt me and get my attention or she was just testing him. I suspected a PA because he was her main transportation everywhere and I knew that but Itrusted him 

I didn't divorce and told her to take oath that they never did have a PA and that she would never speak with him again.

a couple of weeks later I caught a record of few text between them which she deleted and when asked her she denied and when I was not having it she said they cussed each other out so I let it go again. He changed his number.

I got suspended from work and took her on a vacation and after the vacation I seen that she had talked for over an hour with a new number from the same location. So I tried calling that number privately and no one picked up so I called him and changed the caller ID so that the call is coming from her sister and he pickedup. We fought again and split for a week and got back together without her revealing to me what they talked about aside from the usual lies.

I am not giving a lot of details on the fights but I was tormented and our fights was extreme.

Summer 2012
she begged me to let her go help her sister with her new born baby and a month in because I was still mad over the EA that she has not totally confessed to but I let it slide we got into an argument and asked her if she was still contacting him. She got furious for suggesting that and stopped talking to me because I was still not letting go of the past a month or two later when I was scheduled to pick her up she refused to come back with me and gave me stipulations for her forgiveness I wasn't having that and I took the kids and seperated wit her. Two month later I initiated the reconciliation because I made myself believe that I was wrong for bringing up the past and not getting over it.

2013 
she spent the summer in canada

2014 
she spend the summer in canada

2015
she spend the summer in canada

2016

I find out she slept with him 2012 without details of when and not sure if she slept with him in 2011 and the other years but 2013 and forward he moved to a different province.

2016 he is getting married.

when I say good marriage for the last couple of years is when she was here only God knows what was happening everytime she was in canada and how many time and how long their EA or PA or maybe even both lasted.

How would any of you feel now?


----------



## larry.gray

ButtPunch said:


> Five years is a long time to *show she can be faithful* to the marriage. If he truly has been happy,


How does he KNOW that for sure? She lied effectively for half a decade. How does anyone know what other lies are out there?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

huanito said:


> I am not sure everyone he is in understanding of what happened. Here is a very short summary.
> 
> the wife and OM have been contacting each other for a while and although at times I was suspicious and brought this up to her she said they were just friends and I never looked into it further because he is also a relative that I trusted soo much.
> 
> 2011
> I sent her to canada to stay with her sister for two month in the summer. After not getting any call from her and feeling neglected I made a post on this forum and I was told your marriage is in trouble and go now and pick her up. I did but she said if I loved her I would let her stay because she needed the vacation so I cone back alone.
> 
> A month later I picked her up. I told her I don't think I can be alone every summer and she said that she has to go every summer because she is lonely here all year with no family.
> 
> a week after I get back she was in a room texting and after a brief conversation I was suspecious so I took the phone from her and locked myself in the room and seen the phone calls and the sexting about loving each other, missing each other and wanting to have sex and please each explicitly. (No actual admitting of any PA that actually occured)
> 
> I went crazy and when I asked her way the only excuse she gave me is she was intentionally doing it to hurt me and get my attention or she was just testing him. I suspected a PA because he was her main transportation everywhere and I knew that but Itrusted him
> 
> I didn't divorce and told her to take oath that they never did have a PA and that she would never speak with him again.
> 
> a couple of weeks later I caught a record of few text between them which she deleted and when asked her she denied and when I was not having it she said they cussed each other out so I let it go again. He changed his number.
> 
> I got suspended from work and took her on a vacation and after the vacation I seen that she had talked for over an hour with a new number from the same location. So I tried calling that number privately and no one picked up so I called him and changed the caller ID so that the call is coming from her sister and he pickedup. We fought again and split for a week and got back together without her revealing to me what they talked about aside from the usual lies.
> 
> I am not giving a lot of details on the fights but I was tormented and our fights was extreme.
> 
> Summer 2012
> she begged me to let her go help her sister with her new born baby and a month in because I was still mad over the EA that she has not totally confessed to but I let it slide we got into an argument and asked her if she was still contacting him. She got furious for suggesting that and stopped talking to me because I was still not letting go of the past a month or two later when I was scheduled to pick her up she refused to come back with me and gave me stipulations for her forgiveness I wasn't having that and I took the kids and seperated wit her. Two month later I initiated the reconciliation because I made myself believe that I was wrong for bringing up the past and not getting over it.
> 
> 2013
> she spent the summer in canada
> 
> 2014
> she spend the summer in canada
> 
> 2015
> she spend the summer in canada
> 
> 2016
> 
> I find out she slept with him 2012 without details of when and not sure if she slept with him in 2011 and the other years but 2013 and forward he moved to a different province.
> 
> 2016 he is getting married.
> 
> when I say good marriage for the last couple of years is when she was here only God knows what was happening everytime she was in canada and how many time and how long their EA or PA or maybe even both lasted.
> 
> How would any of you feel now?


My H's EA/PA lasted three weeks. I cannot imagine a multi year cheating relationship. I would have left him the first time. And don't blame you for leaving her now upon further disclosure that it was a PA.


----------



## larry.gray

marduk said:


> Oh, and we completely glossed over the fact that he's been risking his health by having sex with her for the past five years.
> 
> Get STD tested, man.
> 
> Another thing to add to the pile of decisions he should have been allowed to make about his own body and life, and was denied.


Not just him, but the two children concieved after the affair. Many STDs can harm a fetus.


----------



## Hope1964

You kicked her a$$ to the curb, right?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

All your posts does is confirm what I read through your three threads. You allowed yourself to let guilt guide your actions. I thank you for the clarity because I knew there was a bigger issue than what you were trickling out. So, after all of this bickering among posters, she was continuing to make contact, lie and visit Canada for the last 4 years. So, you only feel the truth occurred because he moved out of the province. This means you still didn't trust her. I mean come on, hidden phone numbers and contact for two more years? Wow. So, she she misjudged where you two were at in reconciliation. So w

You allowing this is all on you. Her dishonesty, means you have NEVER had a true reconciliation until MAYBE 2013. Still, the fact she promised to never contact him and did means you should have left her long ago. What's interesting to me is you admitted the doubt was killing you since 2011. This is the part some people do not understand. This has been slowly killing, you adjusted your job, you adjusted your behavior and you did everything right while dying inside. Why do I say right?

She felt COMPELLED to tell you the truth after all of these years. So, unlike others, I believe you must have been doing a dang good job working on this marriage to get her to finally open up. Nope, still doesn't mean you have to stay married because she FINALLY decided to give you some honesty.


----------



## sparrow555

Anon Pink said:


> And...stay the hell out of TAM!
> 
> Angry bitter vengeful and violent, but she is a POS because she had an affair and didn't disclose.
> 
> OP, TAM broherd likes to think there is one way and only one way to do things regarding affairs. They're wrong. They are a bunch of bitter angry men who relive their pain each and every time they look into a new thread about a cheating wife. They bring up their own pain and anguish and they push the OP to follow their lead.
> 
> I'm telling you will regret being the force that separates your children from their mother. Might not today or next week, but soon they will hate you for pushing their mother out and the only way to combat that is by trash talking their mother, which will make you look even smaller in their eyes.
> 
> You really should slow down and stop posting here.




Atleast read OP's posts in the thread FFS.


----------



## ConanHub

@huanito

I understand. You have had all you can take and she really hasn't shown remorse and doing what is needed to repair.

I get it. You still might want to find a pro to talk to occasionally or a trusted friend. Peace man.

Really sorry. You are a solid guy.

Keep your head up!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larry.gray

One thing I've learned on my time on this planet is there are many women and me who suddenly find empathy for the other gender when their son or daughter is mistreated.

It is amazing the turnaround a woman can have when her son is cheated on and the woman finds out that it isn't her grandchild anymore.


----------



## sparrow555

huanito said:


> I am not sure everyone he is in understanding of what happened. Here is a very short summary.
> 
> the wife and OM have been contacting each other for a while and although at times I was suspicious and brought this up to her she said they were just friends and I never looked into it further because he is also a relative that I trusted soo much.
> 
> 2011
> I sent her to canada to stay with her sister for two month in the summer. After not getting any call from her and feeling neglected I made a post on this forum and I was told your marriage is in trouble and go now and pick her up. I did but she said if I loved her I would let her stay because she needed the vacation so I cone back alone.
> 
> A month later I picked her up. I told her I don't think I can be alone every summer and she said that she has to go every summer because she is lonely here all year with no family.
> 
> a week after I get back she was in a room texting and after a brief conversation I was suspecious so I took the phone from her and locked myself in the room and seen the phone calls and the sexting about loving each other, missing each other and wanting to have sex and please each explicitly. (No actual admitting of any PA that actually occured)
> 
> I went crazy and when I asked her way the only excuse she gave me is she was intentionally doing it to hurt me and get my attention or she was just testing him. I suspected a PA because he was her main transportation everywhere and I knew that but Itrusted him
> 
> I didn't divorce and told her to take oath that they never did have a PA and that she would never speak with him again.
> 
> a couple of weeks later I caught a record of few text between them which she deleted and when asked her she denied and when I was not having it she said they cussed each other out so I let it go again. He changed his number.
> 
> I got suspended from work and took her on a vacation and after the vacation I seen that she had talked for over an hour with a new number from the same location. So I tried calling that number privately and no one picked up so I called him and changed the caller ID so that the call is coming from her sister and he pickedup. We fought again and split for a week and got back together without her revealing to me what they talked about aside from the usual lies.
> 
> I am not giving a lot of details on the fights but I was tormented and our fights was extreme.
> 
> Summer 2012
> she begged me to let her go help her sister with her new born baby and a month in because I was still mad over the EA that she has not totally confessed to but I let it slide we got into an argument and asked her if she was still contacting him. She got furious for suggesting that and stopped talking to me because I was still not letting go of the past a month or two later when I was scheduled to pick her up she refused to come back with me and gave me stipulations for her forgiveness I wasn't having that and I took the kids and seperated wit her. Two month later I initiated the reconciliation because I made myself believe that I was wrong for bringing up the past and not getting over it.
> 
> 2013
> she spent the summer in canada
> 
> 2014
> she spend the summer in canada
> 
> 2015
> she spend the summer in canada
> 
> 2016
> 
> I find out she slept with him 2012 without details of when and not sure if she slept with him in 2011 and the other years but 2013 and forward he moved to a different province.
> 
> 2016 he is getting married.
> 
> when I say good marriage for the last couple of years is when she was here only God knows what was happening everytime she was in canada and how many time and how long their EA or PA or maybe even both lasted.
> 
> How would any of you feel now?




I mentioned this before. I won't be surprised if the affairs never ended or resumed every year during the summer visits. Her panic attacks could have been because she found out that the OM is getting married and he is moving on permanently. (Speculation)When she realized OM is getting married, her affair fog broke and she was faced with the stark reality that she will never be anything but a side piece to the OM. and hence the panic attacks and guilt.

That might explain her eagerness her move to her sister and lack of fight. w.r.t divorce for someone so remorseful. And like you correctly guessed, the financial situation is what that might be forcing her to stay.


----------



## lordmayhem

huanito said:


> I am not sure everyone he is in understanding of what happened. Here is a very short summary.
> 
> the wife and OM have been contacting each other for a while and although at times I was suspicious and brought this up to her she said they were just friends and I never looked into it further because he is also a relative that I trusted soo much.
> 
> 2011
> I sent her to canada to stay with her sister for two month in the summer. After not getting any call from her and feeling neglected I made a post on this forum and I was told your marriage is in trouble and go now and pick her up. I did but she said if I loved her I would let her stay because she needed the vacation so I cone back alone.
> 
> A month later I picked her up. I told her I don't think I can be alone every summer and she said that she has to go every summer because she is lonely here all year with no family.
> 
> a week after I get back she was in a room texting and after a brief conversation I was suspecious so I took the phone from her and locked myself in the room and seen the phone calls and the sexting about loving each other, missing each other and wanting to have sex and please each explicitly. (No actual admitting of any PA that actually occured)
> 
> I went crazy and when I asked her way the only excuse she gave me is she was intentionally doing it to hurt me and get my attention or she was just testing him. I suspected a PA because he was her main transportation everywhere and I knew that but Itrusted him
> 
> I didn't divorce and told her to take oath that they never did have a PA and that she would never speak with him again.
> 
> a couple of weeks later I caught a record of few text between them which she deleted and when asked her she denied and when I was not having it she said they cussed each other out so I let it go again. He changed his number.
> 
> I got suspended from work and took her on a vacation and after the vacation I seen that she had talked for over an hour with a new number from the same location. So I tried calling that number privately and no one picked up so I called him and changed the caller ID so that the call is coming from her sister and he pickedup. We fought again and split for a week and got back together without her revealing to me what they talked about aside from the usual lies.
> 
> I am not giving a lot of details on the fights but I was tormented and our fights was extreme.
> 
> Summer 2012
> she begged me to let her go help her sister with her new born baby and a month in because I was still mad over the EA that she has not totally confessed to but I let it slide we got into an argument and asked her if she was still contacting him. She got furious for suggesting that and stopped talking to me because I was still not letting go of the past a month or two later when I was scheduled to pick her up she refused to come back with me and gave me stipulations for her forgiveness I wasn't having that and I took the kids and seperated wit her. Two month later I initiated the reconciliation because I made myself believe that I was wrong for bringing up the past and not getting over it.
> 
> 2013
> she spent the summer in canada
> 
> 2014
> she spend the summer in canada
> 
> 2015
> she spend the summer in canada
> 
> 2016
> 
> I find out she slept with him 2012 without details of when and not sure if she slept with him in 2011 and the other years but 2013 and forward he moved to a different province.
> 
> 2016 he is getting married.
> 
> when I say good marriage for the last couple of years is when she was here only God knows what was happening everytime she was in canada and how many time and how long their EA or PA or maybe even both lasted.
> 
> How would any of you feel now?


Honestly, you rugswept this over and over and basically allowed the LTA to continue for 5 years....that you know of. From what you describe, she was already in the PA the first time you let her stay over there for MONTHS. I don't know how you tolerated that, because I sure wouldn't.

She must be a SAHM to be able to take months off on vacation every year without you. Methinks you've spoiled her way too much over the years. This is what denial gets you. 

The moment you found the sexting and declarations of love etc, you should have put your foot down immediately, that's what I did. I don't see any real consequences here, even after the sexting, she still got to go home every summer to bang his brains out. 

You see, every time you swept it under the rug, the resentment builds and builds until you can't take it anymore. 

In your previous threads, people were telling you to get her polygraphed, and it seems like you were in denial about the PA.


----------



## sparrow555

sidney2718 said:


> You are saying that she should have caused a divorce back at the start? In what way was that good for her?
> 
> 
> 
> Now now. Why not every hour?
> 
> 
> 
> Or she thought that the risk of divorce was over, that their relationship was sound.
> 
> 
> 
> Reread that last sentence. Isn't that exactly what most folks do in most situations?
> 
> All in all, the evidence here is that she's being divorced for coming clean. I can understand that. Some men feel very possessive of their wives and need to control most aspects of their wives' lives. The OP's quick decision to divorce seems to me to have been taken way too quickly and, down the line, it may cause him some pain.
> 
> Still, he is within his rights. And she has learned a lesson. The wrong lesson (in my opinion) but still a lesson.



What a distorted way to describe things. His decision to divorce is about possession of his wife and controlling her life ?




> All in all, the evidence here is that she's being divorced for coming clean.



Why not go a bit back and say that every R that happens is evidence that you can cheat on your spouse and get away with it ? The conclusion you reached show a severe lack of critical thinking skills and commonsense. 

She couldn't respect him enough to not cheat on him. She could not respect him to give him the complete truth and let him make a decision about his future or his life. She wasted 5 years of his life on a false premise. 

People like @OliviaG are talking about grace . But grace goes both ways. You are using the logic that since he reconciled himself to the fact that she like had a PA, he should not back down on his words. Well, his reactions after the PA confession just show that he never reconciled to the fact that it was PA. It was something he told to himself to keep the family together. And these decisions are not bound by contract. He is always free to change his mind. I wouldn't even blame him if he decided to divorce even without the recent PA confession. Once the infidelity die is cast, people react differently. Lying to keep the family together after the D-day is just the extension of a cheater;s mentality that led to the situation in the first place.


@OliviaG
You accept that the WS is a faulty person and you see to empathize because she is a woman. But you see to expect perfection from the BS. Why the different standards. OP's description of his discussions clearly show that she is not a remorseful one. And he posted that quote by jld reduced him tears after all these years. This shows that how painful the event is to him, even after all these years.


----------



## sparrow555

lordmayhem said:


> Honestly, you rugswept this over and over and basically allowed the LTA to continue for 5 years....that you know of. From what you describe, she was already in the PA the first time you let her stay over there for MONTHS. I don't know how you tolerated that, because I sure wouldn't.
> 
> She must be a SAHM to be able to take months off on vacation every year without you. Methinks you've spoiled her way too much over the years. This is what denial gets you.
> 
> The moment you found the sexting and declarations of love etc, you should have put your foot down immediately, that's what I did. I don't see any real consequences here, even after the sexting, she still got to go home every summer to bang his brains out.
> 
> You see, every time you swept it under the rug, the resentment builds and builds until you can't take it anymore.
> 
> In your previous threads, people were telling you to get her polygraphed, and it seems like you were in denial about the PA.


LM, read the posts in between. He addressed most of the points you mentioned early in the thread.


----------



## lordmayhem

Exactly! As recently as just last year, she spent the whole summer there. How can he know if there was truly NC between her and the OM? If nothing else, that was complete disrespect to him and the marriage. She should have been spending the summers being home with him and helping him heal.


----------



## lordmayhem

sparrow555 said:


> LM, read the posts in between. He addressed most of the points you mentioned early in the thread.


Oh ok. I haven't had the time lately to go through the whole thread.


----------



## GusPolinski

huanito said:


> I am not sure everyone he is in understanding of what happened. Here is a very short summary.
> 
> the wife and OM have been contacting each other for a while and although at times I was suspicious and brought this up to her she said they were just friends and I never looked into it further because he is also a relative that I trusted soo much.
> 
> 2011
> I sent her to canada to stay with her sister for two month in the summer. After not getting any call from her and feeling neglected I made a post on this forum and I was told your marriage is in trouble and go now and pick her up. I did but she said if I loved her I would let her stay because she needed the vacation so I cone back alone.
> 
> A month later I picked her up. I told her I don't think I can be alone every summer and she said that she has to go every summer because she is lonely here all year with no family.
> 
> a week after I get back she was in a room texting and after a brief conversation I was suspecious so I took the phone from her and locked myself in the room and seen the phone calls and the sexting about loving each other, missing each other and wanting to have sex and please each explicitly. (No actual admitting of any PA that actually occured)
> 
> I went crazy and when I asked her way the only excuse she gave me is she was intentionally doing it to hurt me and get my attention or she was just testing him. I suspected a PA because he was her main transportation everywhere and I knew that but Itrusted him
> 
> I didn't divorce and told her to take oath that they never did have a PA and that she would never speak with him again.
> 
> a couple of weeks later I caught a record of few text between them which she deleted and when asked her she denied and when I was not having it she said they cussed each other out so I let it go again. He changed his number.
> 
> I got suspended from work and took her on a vacation and after the vacation I seen that she had talked for over an hour with a new number from the same location. So I tried calling that number privately and no one picked up so I called him and changed the caller ID so that the call is coming from her sister and he pickedup. We fought again and split for a week and got back together without her revealing to me what they talked about aside from the usual lies.
> 
> I am not giving a lot of details on the fights but I was tormented and our fights was extreme.
> 
> Summer 2012
> she begged me to let her go help her sister with her new born baby and a month in because I was still mad over the EA that she has not totally confessed to but I let it slide we got into an argument and asked her if she was still contacting him. She got furious for suggesting that and stopped talking to me because I was still not letting go of the past a month or two later when I was scheduled to pick her up she refused to come back with me and gave me stipulations for her forgiveness I wasn't having that and I took the kids and seperated wit her. Two month later I initiated the reconciliation because I made myself believe that I was wrong for bringing up the past and not getting over it.
> 
> 2013
> she spent the summer in canada
> 
> 2014
> she spend the summer in canada
> 
> 2015
> she spend the summer in canada
> 
> 2016
> 
> I find out she slept with him 2012 without details of when and not sure if she slept with him in 2011 and the other years but 2013 and forward he moved to a different province.
> 
> 2016 he is getting married.
> 
> when I say good marriage for the last couple of years is when she was here only God knows what was happening everytime she was in canada and how many time and how long their EA or PA or maybe even both lasted.
> 
> How would any of you feel now?


I'd feel like they'd spent every summer for the past 5 years f*cking.

I'd feel like running DNA on each and every one of my children.

I'd feel an intense need to divorce her before she spit out yet another mouth for me to feed.

ETA: I'd feel like a HUGE CHUMP for ever allowing myself to believe for even a fraction of a split second that this could have ever been anything other than a full-on PA.


----------



## Kobold

He already showed her this "grace" everybody's talking about when he took her back the first time after her supposed EA and she rewarded him by lying for five years about the PA. At what point do you go from being "graceful" to merely being abused?


----------



## GusPolinski

Kobold said:


> He already showed her this "grace" everybody's talking about when he took her back the first time after her supposed EA and she rewarded him by lying for five years about the PA. At what point do you go from being "graceful" to merely being abused?


When the genders are flipped.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3putt

Kobold said:


> He already showed her this "grace" everybody's talking about when he took her back the first time after her supposed EA and she rewarded him by lying for five years about the PA. At what point do you go from being "graceful" to merely being abused?





GusPolinski said:


> When the genders are flipped.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bingo


----------



## imjustwatching

Ok i'm gonna step up and say that this is a fake story....
There is a lot of details that got my attention and one of them is this . huanito in post #106 you said " I caught her sexting him after the summer of 2011 and after going through a horrible year we split up on the summer of 2012 for about 5 month details are on a prior post. During this time she spent the 5 month in canada with family while I took custody of the both children here in the states.." and in post "260 you said you kids are 2 and 5 and 6 years old . As a father it amazes me that you won the custody of a 1 year and 2 old child. So please tell us which state gave you this custody . and also how did you take care of this 1 year old kid without his mother?
And And And if you respond with " yeah its the truth that what happend " that will be very disturbing because you got back with this woman who abandoned her 1 and 2 years old kids and left the country to be available to her OM to use her as a ****toy! and please don't tell me she visited her sister for 5 months and just happend that the OM was ****ing her at that time ...


----------



## larry.gray

GusPolinski said:


> When the genders are flipped.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You just keep on being awesome Gus.

I'm confident I'm free of such hipicracy. I'm a firm believer in the "Tam plan" for the betrayed. When a guy in our social circle cheated, I saw a few red flags that pointed towards a false reconciliation and taking the affair underground. I (with my wife beside me) listed off all of the red flags. I took him aside and read him the riot act about what remorse looks like.

He kept his phone locked and with him. He stopped paper billing, and wouldn't give her the paassword. They're divorced now, she's remarried, and everyone thinks he's a foolish prick.


----------



## huanito

My son was born 05/23/2009 and my daughter on 09/26/2010 so during the summer of 2012 my son was 3 and my daughter was almost two and yes I took them both with me because she was in canada and my kids are not canadian what are they going to do there. They were there just to visit. Right before I walked away actually when we were in a heated argument the police was called and she told them she wanted her kids but the police told her that since the kids are already with me the father at my parents house they have no authority to take the kids from me and give it to her. If she wants the kids she needed to come back to the us and seek custody.


----------



## huanito

Also I stated that I had them both in day care. I had help from my relatives paying for it.


----------



## huanito

I talked with my family to see if they can be of any help for the short term with the kids in case I needed it which they were completely fine with and she talked with her sister and I'm not sure what kind of assurance she received but she seemed more at peace with leaving. We went together to do some last minute shopping for her and the kids and while we were shopping she was telling me of how I am tearing this family apart and I am not considering the kids so I told her to see how she would reacts that I maybe able to let bygones be bygones if she never goes to canada again and stays here with me. She said if I ask her of anything else she can do it but not that. She needs to spend time with her family every summer for a month or so because she is lonely here for the other 10 month of the year with no family around. Then she tried to turn it on me and say why am I being so harsh and saying no to canada now after all these years and if I was still jelous or thinking something is going to happen with her and the OM.

All I can say is I have been a fool and blame myself for everything. Yet I can't help but have some lingering consideration in the back of my mind in terms of trying to make this work. I don't even know how to describe myself fo feeling that way. I see everything clearly yet I am still getting some thoughts of possibly making this work. I am fighting myself to not change my mind. This is just crazy and I honestly don't know how to describe myself.


----------



## Blonde

Did your W have the children with her during her summers in Canada?


----------



## huanito

She took the kids every summer. The reason she goes every summer is because schools are closed. In 2012 after her usual two month stay was up and we had a fight and she said she wasn't coming back. I took the kids back and had them by myself for about two month and then we reconciled. And I came back to pick her up and apparently this is the time that she had the PA or at the very least the one time she is currently admittingto so far.


----------



## Blonde

huanito, is there any way you could move to Canada? Sounds like you both have much more support through family ties there.

If not, and you divorce, your W needs to stay in the US so she can parent her children.


----------



## GusPolinski

OliviaG said:


> Yeah, I think we've been had too. The OP has been "trickle-truthing" us as well, and he's changed his story. Yet people are still arguing about it.
> 
> I was just sitting here thinking this would make a good SNL skit.


It could be a bunch of bullsh*t. If so then OP is playing the long game. Or the account was compromised by someone inclined to troll us all.

Either way, do yourself a huge favor and assume that it IS all bullsh*t.

That still doesn't invalidate the debate.


----------



## GusPolinski

huanito said:


> I talked with my family to see if they can be of any help for the short term with the kids in case I needed it which they were completely fine with and she talked with her sister and I'm not sure what kind of assurance she received but she seemed more at peace with leaving. We went together to do some last minute shopping for her and the kids and while we were shopping she was telling me of how I am tearing this family apart and I am not considering the kids so I told her to see how she would reacts that I maybe able to let bygones be bygones if she never goes to canada again and stays here with me. She said if I ask her of anything else she can do it but not that. She needs to spend time with her family every summer for a month or so because she is lonely here for the other 10 month of the year with no family around. Then she tried to turn it on me and say why am I being so harsh and saying no to canada now after all these years and if I was still jelous or thinking something is going to happen with her and the OM.
> 
> All I can say is I have been a fool and blame myself for everything. *Yet I can't help but have some lingering consideration in the back of my mind in terms of trying to make this work*. I don't even know how to describe myself fo feeling that way. I see everything clearly yet I am still getting some thoughts of possibly making this work. I am fighting myself to not change my mind. This is just crazy and I honestly don't know how to describe myself.


If that's the case then stick to your guns on the "No more solo trips to Canada" thing, because you'd be a fool to think that she's not been seeing him on each of her trips back up there.

And Hell... that's IF you can live w/ being a warden for the rest of your damn life.


----------



## GusPolinski

OliviaG said:


> How could she be seeing him in Canada when the OM lives in some other country? And he's now getting married in some other country? Or did that info get changed?


Maybe I'm not caught up yet. Lots of new info since last night, and here I am trying to casually post from my iPhone while winding down on a Friday night.

Guess I'm not doing a very good job of either.

Either way, I've been under the impression that OM lives in Canada.

Or, at the very least, that he's been there while she's been there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sparrow555

huanito said:


> I talked with my family to see if they can be of any help for the short term with the kids in case I needed it which they were completely fine with and she talked with her sister and I'm not sure what kind of assurance she received but she seemed more at peace with leaving. We went together to do some last minute shopping for her and the kids and while we were shopping she was telling me of how I am tearing this family apart and I am not considering the kids so I told her to see how she would reacts that I maybe able to let bygones be bygones if she never goes to canada again and stays here with me. She said if I ask her of anything else she can do it but not that. She needs to spend time with her family every summer for a month or so because she is lonely here for the other 10 month of the year with no family around. Then she tried to turn it on me and say why am I being so harsh and saying no to canada now after all these years and if I was still jelous or thinking something is going to happen with her and the OM.
> 
> All I can say is I have been a fool and blame myself for everything. Yet I can't help but have some lingering consideration in the back of my mind in terms of trying to make this work. I don't even know how to describe myself fo feeling that way. I see everything clearly yet I am still getting some thoughts of possibly making this work. I am fighting myself to not change my mind. This is just crazy and I honestly don't know how to describe myself.


You don;t even have the complete truth yet. Do realize that. Don;t make the mistakes that already did earlier. Maybe even tell that you are going to make her take a poly.





> if I was still jelous or thinking something is going to happen with her and the OM.



Remorseful my ass. Her history of cheating does not make you jealous. It makes her untrustable.


----------



## sparrow555

OliviaG said:


> Yeah, I think we've been had too. The OP has been "trickle-truthing" us as well, and he's changed his story. Yet people are still arguing about it.
> 
> I was just sitting here thinking this would make a good SNL skit.



How graceful of you.


----------



## GusPolinski

OliviaG said:


> @huanito this is what you wrote not too long ago:
> 
> Are you thinking this way again?


He seems to be vacillating between the two different mindsets.

This is very typical for a betrayed in the early days following a D-Day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blonde

AP moved to a *different province* years ago.

Huanito would have heard about it if she were out gallavanting across Canada

And BTW, Gus, is this really how you see your children?



GusPolinski said:


> I'd feel an intense need to divorce her before she* spit out yet another mouth for me to feed*..


As if she "spits them out" all alone and just to leech off you... 

SMH


----------



## GusPolinski

Blonde said:


> AP moved to a *different province* years ago.
> 
> Huanito would have heard about it if she were out gallavanting across Canada
> 
> And BTW, Gus, is this really how you see your children?
> 
> 
> 
> As if she "spits them out" all alone and just to leech off you...
> 
> SMH


Yeah, because it's just CRAZY to think that the guy could hop on a plane as soon as she's out of her husband's sight, right?

Also, no kids.

...and I'm beginning to thank almighty God for that more and more every. single. damn. day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blonde

Huanito,
what is your country of origin? what is your wife's country of origin?

Just wondering how much culture factors in here.


----------



## GusPolinski

OliviaG said:


> I think we were all under the impression that she went to Canada on her own every summer leaving the kids with him, but he just said that she takes the kids with her every summer.


Ha! Are you in troll detection mode or debate mode? I can't keep up!!!

Anyway, we're talking about 5 different summers here. They may have been w/ her one summer but not another.

And it's not like having her kids w/ her would somehow render her incapable of cheating.



OliviaG said:


> OM is getting married and lives in a different province. It seems pretty unlikely that he's a threat at this point.


Yeah, probably not.

Engaged and married people never cheat.

And guys have certainly never driven or flown anywhere to cheat.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soccermom2three

imjustwatching said:


> Ok i'm gonna step up and say that this is a fake story....
> There is a lot of details that got my attention and one of them is this . huanito in post #106 you said " I caught her sexting him after the summer of 2011 and after going through a horrible year we split up on the summer of 2012 for about 5 month details are on a prior post. During this time she spent the 5 month in canada with family while I took custody of the both children here in the states.." and in post "260 you said you kids are 2 and 5 and 6 years old . As a father it amazes me that you won the custody of a 1 year and 2 old child. So please tell us which state gave you this custody . and also how did you take care of this 1 year old kid without his mother?
> And And And if you respond with " yeah its the truth that what happend " that will be very disturbing because you got back with this woman who abandoned her 1 and 2 years old kids and left the country to be available to her OM to use her as a ****toy! and please don't tell me she visited her sister for 5 months and just happend that the OM was ****ing her at that time ...


I agree. I'm suspicious too. A lot of inconsistencies. I think at the beginning he said she got a job, then he's sending the kids far away, then he's sending her away. Why would she leave if she just got a job?


----------



## Blonde

GusPolinski said:


> Yeah, because it's just CRAZY to think that the guy could hop on a plane as soon as she's out of her husband's sight, right?
> 
> *Also, no kids.
> 
> ...and I'm beginning to thank almighty God for that more and more every. single. damn. day.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Really?

And those 6 fellas who liked your post, do you fellas feel the same way about children?

Just wondering....

OTH, I have 8 children and three grandchildren and feel so grateful and so wealthy every single blessed day.


----------



## GusPolinski

Blonde said:


> Huanito,
> what is your country of origin? what is your wife's country of origin?
> 
> Just wondering how much culture factors in here.


I've been wondering the same.

I think others have asked as well...? I take it he hasn't answered...?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Blonde said:


> Really?
> 
> And those 6 fellas who liked your post, do you fellas feel the same way about children?
> 
> Just wondering....
> 
> OTH, I have 8 children and three grandchildren and feel so grateful and so wealthy every single blessed day.


Start another thread and I'll gladly answer.


----------



## GusPolinski

Blonde said:


> Really?


First, read this...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/249257-infertility.html

Even now, at 39 and 40, respectively, my wife and I would LOVE to be parents.

Still, every time we stop and look at the state of the world all around us, we're a bit less sad about the fact that it will (very likely) never happen.



Blonde said:


> And those 6 fellas who liked your post, do you fellas feel the same way about children?
> 
> Just wondering....


Consider the following...

* Men do not bond w/ their children in the same way that women do. WE CAN'T. We don't carry them in our bodies for 9-10 months prior to giving birth to them. We can pat the pregnant belly, participate in all the pre-natal stuff, and be super-duper attached to the kid (at least we think so) prior to childbirth, but the bulk of attachment doesn't begin for men until AFTER childbirth. IOW, fathers are almost always behind the curve in terms of attachment to their kids as compared to mothers.

* To either a man or a woman, a child will always represent -- if nothing else -- an obligation. Food. Diapers. Medical care. Clothing. Toys. 2 am feedings. Lost sleep. All that stuff.

Sure, there's love, and pride, and all that jazz, but the sense of obligation never really goes away. At least not for a _good_ parent.

Now consider that, for a guy in OP's shoes, learning that he's brought another child in the world in the midst of a false reconciliation isn't exactly going to prompt him to nominate his wife for either Wife of the Year or Mother of the Year.

He's going to feel that he was duped into having another kid.

He's going to feel all the more trapped by it.



Blonde said:


> OTH, I have 8 children and three grandchildren and feel so grateful and so wealthy every single blessed day.


----------



## huanito

I'm not sure how many times posts on this board got compromised or ended up being fake but I have my own problems and I won't be trying to justify that it is real. At this point I am not undecided individual looking for advice or input on how to proceed. I want out of this relationship and if anything I need more people telling me to stick to my guns and don't look back before the inner me who still wants this to work resurfaces.

I have written a long post yesterday and deleted it which was about giving up and giving in for the sake of my kids. I know if i try to work this out I can be happy again with time just like the last several years but I'm not sure for how long. I'm far from being vindictive but I have a hard time forgetting and letting go. i keep remembering both the good times which doesnt get enough attention and the bad times which is why I am on this forum.

I want change but not sure what I can change at this point. It's obvious I cannot change the past and I don't know what the future holds if we stick together. I thought about giving this relationship a chance and putting my foot down on a lot of things like saying no to anymore staying in canada every summer and anything else that I may think could cause future troubles in this relationship but I failed at that before. After the first EA I told myself the same thing but got sweet talked into letting her go again and again.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

You've been told to talk to a neutral party like a counselor who deals with Infidelity. You need a place where you can talk freely, without taking potshots because people project their own insecurities and anger into your thread. No one will ever agree 100%. I've participated in only one thread where agreement was 100%, until a couple of people decided to play devil's advocate. It was crazy because all sides agreed.

Your case is not one. Some feel too much time has passed. Others feel you have been reset to zero. Others are going to say she is scared. Others say you are scared.
This is no way for you, her or your kids to live. You keep saying it was great, but everything you keep posting says the opposite.


----------



## huanito

For those who don't read all my posts please don't bother to criticize me for something you missed such as her getting a job. I mentioned that it didn't work out because of her being not qualified enoug. She was dismissed on the first day.


----------



## ThePheonix

huanito said:


> After the first EA I told myself the same thing but got sweet talked into letting her go again and again.


I just worked my algorithm decoding EA. It means, "We want to sleep together but the timing's not right"


----------



## huanito

I prefer not say the country of origin because I don't want want that to be an arguing point since I believe it is irrelevant but culture very much is a factor. Her admittance to a PA will not only bring her great shame but she could be cast out from her family and community . That is also a reason why I would not ever expose her for having a PA but I can be an emotional guy and can't guarantee that my emotions may not get the best of me and I believe that is the reason for her to hang on to her secrets.


----------



## huanito

In our culture sex before marriage is highly looked down upon let alone an adulterous spouse. Both of us have been more Americanized and may not be that extreme and unforgiving but you certainly loose the option of talking to family members and friends from the same community about this.


----------



## huanito

I feel like i should just stop posting for awhile because I know I don't have a set mindset and from now on we will all propably be just beating a dead horse. I see where everyone is coming from on both sides of the aisle and I have to make a decision. I'll keep you guys posted. Thank you all for your input because I can say at the very least I have a lot of things to consider, some that may not have been on my mind before I started this thread.


----------



## GusPolinski

OliviaG said:


> Do sarcasm and derisive comments pass for debate in this forum. Is that what it's all about? The winner is whoever gets the most zingers in?











_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Lol.. Gus won that one


----------



## Blossom Leigh

huanito said:


> I prefer not say the country of origin because I don't want want that to be an arguing point since I believe it is irrelevant but culture very much is a factor. Her admittance to a PA will not only bring her great shame but she could be cast out from her family and community . That is also a reason why I would not ever expose her for having a PA but I can be an emotional guy and can't guarantee that my emotions may not get the best of me and I believe that is the reason for her to hang on to her secrets.


How did they react when you exposed the EA?


----------



## sparrow555

OliviaG said:


> Do sarcasm and derisive comments pass for debate in this forum. Is that what it's all about? The winner is whoever gets the most zingers in?





OliviaG said:


> Yeah, I think we've been had too. The OP has been "trickle-truthing" us as well, and he's changed his story. Yet people are still arguing about it.
> 
> I was just sitting here thinking this would make a good SNL skit.


----------



## metallicaluvr

noooo don't reconcile with her! be a MAN for once.


----------



## G.J.

huanito said:


> *I have written a long post yesterday and deleted it which was about giving up and giving in for the sake of my kids*. I know if i try to work this out I can be happy again with time just like the last several years but I'm not sure for how long. I'm far from being vindictive but I have a hard time forgetting and letting go. i keep remembering both the good times which doesnt get enough attention and the bad times which is why I am on this forum.
> 
> .


Jeez

SLOW THE Fvck down man

How the blazes can you flip flop and so easily and make a life changing decision at the same time...gee today ill stay...tomorrow ill leave ?????????

It don't mean diddly what people on this board think as they wont be living the next 40 years of your family's life

*Just TAKE YOUR TIME AND SLOW DOWN ...*


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I swear some of you regulars crack me up. It's almost like there has NEVER been a thread where a betrayed spouse vents and flip flops for days, weeks and months. It's alright for him to waffle, flip and be confused after getting a truth of an affair. Especially, when they had convinced themselves it was just words. He's gonna rush, slow down, get things wrong and hopefully get it right later. He should be posting whatever he feels so, people can give him advice and he can see there are multiple scenarios which do not necessarily mean the end of a marriage.


Huanito, if you listen to any posts listen to the ones about getting some outside counseling. Yes, I know, some cultures frown on this, but you need to talk with someone who has no vested interest in your situation or wants to win an argument online. Yes, I am sounding like a broken record, but your thread has become a morass for "my morality is better, here have a logical fallacy" right now. Go get some help, it may save your marriage it may not, but you can gain some much needed clarity.


----------



## GusPolinski

Blossom Leigh said:


> Lol.. Gus won that one


Wasn't really trying to "win" anything... just inserting a bit of levity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I swear some of you regulars crack me up. It's almost like there has NEVER been a thread where a betrayed spouse vents and flip flops for days, weeks and months. It's alright for him to waffle, flip and be confused after getting a truth of an affair. Especially, when they had convinced themselves it was just words. He's gonna rush, slow down, get things wrong and hopefully get it right later. He should be posting whatever he feels so, people can give him advice and he can see there are multiple scenarios which do not necessarily mean the end of a marriage.
> 
> 
> Huanito, if you listen to any posts listen to the ones about getting some outside counseling. Yes, I know, some cultures frown on this, but you need to talk with someone who has no vested interest in your situation or wants to win an argument online. Yes, I am sounding like a broken record, but your thread has become a morass for "my morality is better, here have a logical fallacy" right now. Go get some help, it may save your marriage it may not, but you can gain some much needed clarity.


Make it two broken records. I totally agree with some counseling for @huanito.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

GusPolinski said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I seriously LOVE chocolate zingers!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## G.J.

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I swear some of you regulars crack me up. It's almost like there has NEVER been a thread where a betrayed spouse vents and flip flops for days, weeks and months. It's alright for him to waffle, flip and be confused after getting a truth of an affair. .


*Of course that's right *


In this case he has his wife going to Canada the next day which must be some sort of record so I would like him *if he takes anything 
away from this board *to slow it down as hes in control not his wife she will do anything by the sound of it


----------



## Decorum

With all due respect here huanito,
You seem like the quintessential passive/agressive male.

From one extreem to another, from rug sweeping to implacability.

There is a middle way.

One where you are not rug sweeping and she is not getting blindfolded reconciliation.

I know I am repeating myself, but you now have the power in your relationship, use it for good.

Without now trying to guess, your cultural complications have been evident from the beginning. They are not going away and you both are going to have to live with them.

That explains many of these extremes, her offer to let you have the children and start a new life in Canada, and your reaction to the discovery of her EA and PA.

Listen, a middle way involves therapy for both of you, and a very structured and accountable relationship (third party professional) while you explore individual growth, and possible reconcilation.

Good greif, you are the man and husband, it is on you to give kind leadership here, and not doing it because you are afraid you may fail or give up is just letting your weakness rule you.

When does that get addressed in your life?

After your whole family disintegrates?

You have some very ugly responsibility in this mess (rug sweeping). Own it and man up.

I know money is often an issue in this, but there are options, you just have to be willing to do them and not be cowardly or lazy.

I wish you well.
Take care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sparrow555

OliviaG said:


> Huanito, no doubt this made it very difficult for her to confess. I'm so glad you have this insight into why she kept her terrible secret to herself.






Similar analogies. 

"Yes he killed the man but he confessed the "terrible secret" on his own to the police. Huge sacrifice on his end to do it. "

"Yes, he robbed the bank but after they got caught, they plead guilty and even passed info on some of his partner even though it might have been terribly hard on him to betray his friends."



The culture she grew up in did not stop her from having an affair with the relative of her husband in the first place . Yet you twist it around into as if some kind of self-sacrifice on her part to come clean about her affair after lying about it for several years. I find this manipulative and farcical.


----------



## wmn1

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Start another thread and I'll gladly answer.


exactly !!!!


----------



## ConanHub

OliviaG said:


> I was thinking it was more analogous to the thinking one would do about whether or not to admit to a crime that carried a life sentence or a death sentence as a *certain* result of the admission.


I agree but it also shows just how determined the criminal is to repeatedly commit the same crime and not totally clean up their act either.

She can't be that concerned if she kept ignoring huanito's requirements to reestablish trust.

Going forward, huanito needs to hold her feet to the fire about her behavior and require titanium boundaries.

This woman really does not inspire confidence and that needed to change yesterday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sparrow555

OliviaG said:


> I was thinking it was more analogous to the thinking one would do about whether or not to admit to a crime that carried a life sentence or a death sentence as a *certain* result of the admission.




OP's post



> until a couple of month ago my wife started having anxiety problems and panic attacks and during those episodes she asked me for forgiveness of what she has put me through and ultimately admitted to PA. Her guilty conscious was eating her up.


It wasn't as voluntary as you think it is. The confession was a side effect of her own guilt and reasons that are likely related to the OM's marriage announcement. It had nothing to do with OP or if she felt he deserved to know the truth.


----------



## soccermom2three

Blossom Leigh said:


> Lol.. Gus won that one



Wow. This post speaks volumes. Sad that for some posters winning is more important than actually helping the op and his family get through a hard time. If you (collective you) are here to win at all costs instead of help then maybe you should step back. It does explain the anger and bitterness though when op doesn't follow advice to the letter.


----------



## bandit.45

I cannot find where he mentions what this mysterious culture of his is....

Bangladeshi? Indian? Pakistani? Tuareg? Vietnamese? Hmong? Navajo? Egyptian? Rastafarian? Mugwump?

What is the cultural reference here? Is there a culture on earth that encourages cousin sex? Is she a member of the ancient Hawaiian royal family? They used to inbreed....


----------



## ConanHub

bandit.45 said:


> I cannot find where he mentions what this mysterious culture of his is....
> 
> Bangladeshi? Indian? Pakistani? Tuareg? Vietnamese? Hmong? Navajo? Egyptian? Rastafarian? Mugwump?
> 
> What is the cultural reference here? Is there a culture on earth that encourages cousin sex? Is she a member of the ancient Hawaiian royal family? They used to inbreed....


Wait. I was assuming it was OP's relative.

Did she have sex with her own relative?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

ConanHub said:


> Wait. I was assuming it was OP's relative.
> 
> Did she have sex with her own relative?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


His? Hers? Who cares? She's gross.


----------



## ConanHub

bandit.45 said:


> His? Hers? Who cares? She's gross.


If it's her relative, I'm out and not looking back.

Bad enough if it is his relative.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

If you read his previous threads, her family has known about this and apparently done nothing to get her to stop. 

I cannot recall, recently, a more toxic situation than what we are seeing here. This woman has essentially been splitting her time between two husbands. She's got Summer Husband and Winter Husband. How good is that?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

soccermom2three said:


> Wow. This post speaks volumes. Sad that for some posters winning is more important than actually helping the op and his family get through a hard time. If you (collective you) are here to win at all costs instead of help then maybe you should step back. It does explain the anger and bitterness though when op doesn't follow advice to the letter.


Lol! You take yourself way too serious.

Lighten up. He was being silly and so was I.

You know nothing of my intent and most intent by the others that have similar views.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

OliviaG said:


> I was hoping that Blossom was just kidding, and I assumed that Gus was - then he confirmed it.
> 
> I came into this conversation as an outsider without an agenda, just thoughts to express. I was sort of expecting my thoughts to be unpopular, having read several threads on this forum. I knew they went against the grain.
> 
> However the extent of the derisiveness and the sarcasm was a bit shocking, as was the attempt by certain posters to turn the conversation into a gender war - as if a person can't have a differing opinion that's not based on gender.
> 
> In all honesty, at one point when I was catching up on the thread, the picture in my mind of this group became that of an angry mob standing around holding torches yelling "burn the witch!" I'm not just saying that to inflame the conversation, this is what I actually experienced as an outsider to the regulars here. No exaggeration, no sarcasm.
> 
> I'm just sharing that in hopes that the thoughtful among us might get some insight into how things might look if you step back a bit from the conversation.


Are you directing that last line at me? Its so interesting that my care for accuracy is being taken as bitterness. Just cracks me up the assumptions being made and the drama put behind it. Free forum. Feel free to hit that ignore button.


----------



## Kobold

OliviaG said:


> However the extent of the derisiveness and the sarcasm was a bit shocking, as was the attempt by certain posters to turn the conversation into a gender war - as if a person can't have a differing opinion that's not based on gender.


*Derisiveness and sarcasm you say? *



OliviaG said:


> Your question is akin to someone saying to me: Yes, I know cars don't float, but why did mine sink when I drove it into the lake?





OliviaG said:


> I guess I'll leave you guys to your victory dance - you "saved" another one.





jld said:


> The fact that he is willing to send his children away to live with relatives tells me all I need to know about him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





jld said:


> Huanito, take it all back. Take back everything you said to her a few days ago because of what you were ill-advised by some here. Go to your wife and ask her forgiveness. Ask your children's, too, for what you may have done to them.





sidney2718 said:


> You may be right. But he comes across as a person who is very difficult to live with. He's got anger management issues. And for all I know he's now promised his wife that she'll never see her kids again.





Blonde said:


> Look at the bright side. You don't have to ship them to Canada. You can have visitation every other weekend. :smile2:





Happilymarried25 said:


> Stop thinking about your ego and think about what is best for your children.


*As far as your claim about certain posters attempting to turn this into a gender war, no I don't see that here at all? :scratchhead:
*


soccermom2three said:


> I don't know, maybe they are so caught up in the frothy frenzy of punishing a female cheater, they are not thinking of what their posts sound like.





Anon Pink said:


> OP, TAM broherd likes to think there is one way and only one way to do things regarding affairs. They're wrong. They are a bunch of bitter angry men who relive their pain each and every time they look into a new thread about a cheating wife. They bring up their own pain and anguish and they push the OP to follow their lead.





OliviaG said:


> In all honesty, at one point when I was catching up on the thread, the picture in my mind of this group became that of an angry mob standing around holding torches yelling "burn the witch!" I'm not just saying that to inflame the conversation, this is what I actually experienced as an outsider to the regulars here. No exaggeration, no sarcasm.


*Angry mobs with torches, you mean like repeatedly accusing the OP of being a troll, or some other type of torch wielding mob? *



OliviaG said:


> Yeah, I think we've been had too. The OP has been "trickle-truthing" us as well, and he's changed his story. Yet people are still arguing about it.
> 
> I was just sitting here thinking this would make a good SNL skit.





OliviaG said:


> How could she be seeing him in Canada when the OM lives in some other country? And he's now getting married in some other country? Or did that info get changed?





soccermom2three said:


> I agree. I'm suspicious too. A lot of inconsistencies. I think at the beginning he said she got a job, then he's sending the kids far away, then he's sending her away. Why would she leave if she just got a job?


*
And yes I have way too much time on my hands. *


----------



## sparrow555

OliviaG said:


> It wasn't as voluntary as who thinks it is? I have never even guessed at why she chose to confess now. I don't know her or their situation enough to try to guess why she confessed. If I guessed, it would just be pure conjecture and not helpful.
> 
> I'm fascinated though that you seem certain of not only the OPs wife's reasons for confessing but also of my thoughts about it.


ok.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Here you go conan:
2012


huanito said:


> I have a post on another thread but it does not have the details of everything that happened but here is a brief summary.
> 
> * I caught my wife sexting a relative and a good friend of mine.* The friend lives in canada along with most of mine and her family members. I seen her sexting after she came back from a two months vacation in canada to be with her family that she didnt see for a long time. .


Actually, here's the thing. His writing is okay, but mixed in some places. It could actually be worse. She was either texting two people and one was his friend the other a relative or she was sexting a relative who was a good friend. 



> And yes I have way too much time on my hands.


Kobold stop. Don't get banned because of irony.



> as if a person can't have a differing opinion that's not based on gender.


Welcome to TAM. It is why I basically said "here we go again" earlier.


----------



## Decorum

bandit.45 said:


> If you read his previous threads, her family has known about this and apparently done nothing to get her to stop.
> 
> I cannot recall, recently, a more toxic situation than what we are seeing here. This woman has essentially been splitting her time between two husbands. She's got Summer Husband and Winter Husband. How good is that?


Ugg!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## huanito

I just read some posts and wanted to clarify he was a relative and a good friend of mine.

Also her parents and family didn't do anything about it because she never confessed to it. In 2011 while I was having a break down after finding out the sexting she stole the phone from me and don't know what she did to it. She even lied about taking the phone and never admitted to that either but I'm sure she took it and I just didn't loose it.

Final verdict we are splitting up. The reason being irreconcilable differences. After all she is the mother of my kids and I don't see any gain from trying to prove that that it is because of a EA / PA. 

The kids will be under the temporary custody of my aunt who resides in canada close to her sister and where she will be staying until she figures out how she is going to proceed in life. She has the option of keeping the kids with her at her sisters house but refused because they live in a small apartment with a her sister's big family. Her sister is getting a house built and if she moves out or she manages to find a way to settle near her sister she may take custody of the kids in the mean time.

As for me I am currently planning on taking the kids back in the short future like I mentioned before and will not be fighting for custody if she ever wants them back and has the ability to care and provide for them. My kids are young and she proved that she is a good mother so I have no worries there. As far as I am concerned I will do whatever that is in my power to make sure my kids have good living standards and a bright future in front of them like any other parent. The only unfortunate thing is they will not grow up in the same home of both their biological parents.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Thanks for the clarification, I think you need to talk to someone outside of the situation. I think you said the kids were born here so, I'd advise you get custody settled now. Great mom or great dad doesn't matter, the US court system is unbalanced when it comes to interest and arrears penalties when you split. Good luck, I hope your custody situation blows up in your face.


----------



## Blonde

Huanito,
That sounds like a good plan. The kids will have their mother and lots of supportive family from both sides around them. 

I'm only sorry you can't move to Canada to see them more. 

I can't even imagine you trying to take care of three children <6 and working your long hours. Of all the times child-rearing, I have ALWAYS said three children 6 and under was the very hardest. There is no break, at all, ever. It is a 24/7 job!

And I looked it up. If you are a citizen who sponsored your wife and you really do make good money, you would wind up having to pay back her welfare benefits if you make a lot of money and she stays here to take care of the children. You said paying for daycare is too much for you, you might actually be low income by American standards. A family of 5 can make 3075 per month and qualify for food stamps. A family size of 5 can qualify for section 8 with an income of $39000.

If she wants to stay in the US so the children can see their father, tell her to visit this website where she can find out about public assistance ( assuming you are here legally) https://www.singlemotherhelp.org/


----------



## Blonde

Full Disclosure: I have two teenage sons who live with me (the last two of our 8 children). My children's father lives 500 miles away. He likes his freedom to live the bachelor player lifestyle free from any responsibility or burden of children other than writing a check, and I like that I live near family- my adult children and grandchildren (warmer climate than Canada, though- BRRRR)


----------



## just got it 55

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Here you go conan:
> 2012
> Actually, here's the thing. His writing is okay, but mixed in some places. It could actually be worse. She was either texting two people and one was his friend the other a relative or she was sexting a relative who was a good friend.
> 
> 
> 
> Kobold stop. Don't get banned because of irony.
> 
> Welcome to TAM. It is why I basically said "here we go again" earlier.


T/J Here I was of the opinion that Tam Mods were heavy handed

This thread proves me wrong

I also was of the opinion the TAM was more helpful forum than SI

And the thought that I could post this on a few active threads on Tam is changing my position on both. 

If we can't count on the Mods to clean this mess up ..........

It is up to us to respectfully disagree with one another and focus on the OP's NEED FOR HELP

Far too many great posters with years of positive contributions to allow this to continue.

My 2 cents

Carry on Kids

55


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

just got it 55 said:


> T/J
> 
> My 2 cents
> 
> Carry on Kids
> 
> 55


Irony and right back at you. To use one thread as a barometer is silly. I can get threads where you and many of the veterans are T/J. We all should know better, but everyone succumbs once in awhile, even you. Each place has its pros and cons, one is better than the other at certain areas.


----------



## ButtPunch

soccermom2three said:


> Wow. This post speaks volumes. Sad that for some posters winning is more important than actually helping the op and his family get through a hard time. If you (collective you) are here to win at all costs instead of help then maybe you should step back. It does explain the anger and bitterness though when op doesn't follow advice to the letter.


It was clearly a joke....at least I read it that way.


----------



## ButtPunch

This thread is confusing the hell out of me.


----------



## Marduk

ButtPunch said:


> This thread is confusing the hell out of me.


That's what happens when you argue from emotion rather than reason.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

ButtPunch said:


> This thread is confusing the hell out of me.


Go read it again, while thinking of the gender divide, it makes perfect sense.

Men understand the rage he felt when he caught his wife SEXTING a relative.

Women understand why she was scared to tell the full confession because he took the kids away.

The true line is a mixture of both and the red herrings are rage and scared, but gender anger can't see the middle.


----------



## Marduk

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Go read it again, while thinking of the gender divide, it makes perfect sense.
> 
> Men understand the rage he felt when he caught his wife SEXTING a relative.
> 
> Women understand why she was scared to tell the full confession because he took the kids away.
> 
> The true line is a mixture of both and the red herrings are rage and scared, but gender anger can't see the middle.


And if you put all that aside, and just contemplate the facts presented regardless of the gender or emotional perception... The required outcome does not change.

The problem with sheilding people from reality is that reality always wins eventually.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

We wouldn't be TAM if we removed the hypocrisy and gender anger from some posters.


----------



## huanito

New update

From my last post we sat down and talked a lot about the chances of saving this marriage. 

My feelings towards divorce has not changed because the PA and lying about it for all those years is too much to bear but I tried to have somewhat of an open mind in terms of considering to save this marriage knowing that it will take a lot of work and some patience from her while I try to heal and attempt coping from this again from the start. 

So I asked her if she was ready to stop going to canada every summer and willing to stay with me and the kids here all the time. 

Her response "nope". She is willing to do anything for me except that. So I told her will she not change her mind knowing that maybe the only slim chance of saving this marriage and she insisted on her answer.

I would like to share that my wife and her sister share a special kind of bond. My wife grew up under her sister's house in her teenage years and she is closer to her sister then her parents and any other sibling. We even fought many times over how much of her sisters opinions and voices was forcing it's way into our marital relationship. 

Having said that it is one of the reasons I never really objected to her extended vacation to spend some time with her sister but as far as I'm concerned she blew it by her action.

This gave me a piece of mind that I was making the right decision in terms of wanting to end this marriage.

So we decided to live together in seperate rooms until summer and the kids are out of school and for both of us to take time planning our future and hopefully come up with the best possible solution for the kids.

The reason I post this today is not to get input or opinion about why she is not willing to stop going to canada or how I can persuade her in changing her mind. I actually hope she doesn't because I want out of this marriage just forcing myself to think everything through.

I post this today because I am interested to see if anyone can actually come up with a reason this marriage should still be saved because I for one don't see it at all.

P.S blonde thank you for the all the info you posted. My income is high enough to not qualify or need any public assistance and I just need to make some adjustment between my assets and liabilities in order to be able to afford a day care for my youngest and that is just what I am about to do in this few month we are living together until summer.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

If you have doubt, then you should talk to someone outside of your relatives, friends and marriage. I can give you an equal amount of reasons to stay, but none of them trump how you feel. If you need help being convinced to stay and need outside people to rally you back into the marriage, it is over.


----------



## Marduk

She gave you your answer. She'll reconcile as long as you're the one that does the reconciling, and she doesn't have to change.

And I'd bet there's a dude in Canada.

All the gender arguments were noise, distracting from the obvious from the beginning.


----------



## Blonde

huanito said:


> So I asked her if she was ready to stop going to canada every summer and willing to stay with me and the kids here all the time.
> 
> Her response "nope". She is willing to do anything for me except that. So I told her will she not change her mind knowing that maybe the only slim chance of saving this marriage and she insisted on her answer.
> 
> I would like to share that my wife and her sister share a special kind of bond. My wife grew up under her sister's house in her teenage years and she is closer to her sister then her parents and any other sibling. We even fought many times over how much of her sisters opinions and voices was forcing it's way into our marital relationship.


So, the reason you don't want her going to Canada is because you don't like her sister's influence on her, correct? Is this the same sister who has 8 children?

I'm glad you are giving this some time (till summer). 

I totally understand the pain and confusion from finding out about sexual betrayal. I have been there with my STBX. In 2009, I found out about a betrayal from 2008 and it was crushing. I felt similar to you. If my H had given me a track record of 5 years of trying his hardest like your W has been doing, he would not be STBX (soon to be ex). We would still be together.

But Huanito, are you are using this old betrayal as leverage to force her to cut off family ties? That"s what it sounds like to me and it comes across controlling. I have 8 children myself and know what it is like when they are young. Her sister won't be coming to visit her anytime soon.

I do think you would do well to try to find a social group where your wife can find friends and support here in this country. Good friends can ease the pain of being far away from family. Is there a group of your language and culture anywhere nearby?

What is it about her sister's influence you don't like? Surely she is not supportive of adultery (you already said family doesn't know about that).


----------



## Marduk

Blonde said:


> So, the reason you don't want her going to Canada is because you don't like her sister's influence on her, correct? Is this the same sister who has 8 children?
> 
> I'm glad you are giving this some time (till summer).
> 
> I totally understand the pain and confusion from finding out about sexual betrayal. I have been there with my STBX. In 2009, I found out about a betrayal from 2008 and it was crushing. I felt similar to you. If my H had given me a track record of 5 years of trying his hardest like your W has been doing, he would not be STBX (soon to be ex). We would still be together.
> 
> But Huanito, are you are using this old betrayal as leverage to force her to cut off family ties? That"s what it sounds like to me and it comes across controlling. I have 8 children myself and know what it is like when they are young. Her sister won't be coming to visit her anytime soon.
> 
> I do think you would do well to try to find a social group where your wife can find friends and support here in this country. Good friends can ease the pain of being far away from family. Is there a group of your language and culture anywhere nearby?
> 
> What is it about her sister's influence you don't like? Surely she is not supportive of adultery (you already said family doesn't know about that).


I believe he made it clear the he works two jobs, and she is frequently gone on the weekends and all summer with the kids, so he never gets to see them.

It's a reasonable request that your spouse doesn't take the kids outside the country for weeks or months at a time against your will without you regularly.

You know, it's probably the law, too.


----------



## LosingHim

Why do you need reasons to stay? If you don’t want to stay, don’t. 

Asking for reasons to stay tells me that there is a part of you that wants to. And that’s fine. Stuff like this isn’t always cut and dry. 

Your emotions have been all over the place with this, you are SAYING it’s over, but by asking for reasons to stay your ACTIONS are showing it’s not. 

It’s all good. I’m not attacking you for that.

You’ve just suffered an emotional blow, on top of what was already an emotional blow. I don’t think anyone expects you to be fully level headed and making 100% concrete decisions right now. 

But, my suggestion is, calm down cowboy. Your wife knows that right now, divorce is where you’re at. That’s what matters. If you’re going to see any real remorse, now is when you will see it. From October 9th until February 12th my husband wanted a divorce. That was the worst time of my life. I would’ve rather died that pain was so bad. But through that pain, I found myself and I found my remorse. 

ONE WEEK before I was to close on the house I was buying, my husband changed his mind and decided that he wanted to try to make this work. I would’ve been moving out next week. When this all started between me and my husband he told me numerous times he had zero interest in working on us, it was over, we were done, etc. As time progressed, things obviously changed for him. 

While I’m incredibly thankful they changed, I also know, he had to process things in his time. He had to go through his range of emotions, he had to have time to see the bigger picture, he had to sit back and analyze what he wanted, he had to figure out if he wanted things to work. We had some good times in that 4 months and we had some horrible times in that 4 months. But what we needed was TIME.

Don’t try to rush into getting a divorce if you’re having doubts. Leave divorce on the table, but put a time frame on it. Maybe say, “We’ll give it 6 months to get everything in order”. Re-evaluate after 6 months. Then make your move. I think you’re way too overwhelmed emotionally right now to make ANY long term decisions.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

We all see different things huantio. You are angry, but I do not see it as controlling. She was sexting, going for rides with this guy and had conversations from a changed number. Yet, you still reconciled with her, for five years and she has never missed one of these Canadian trips to visit her sister. This is the opposite of controlling especially, when family and friends told you she was leaving the kids and disappearing for hours on a few of these summer trips. You never stopped these trips. Now, in an attempt to see where she is at and the priority you hold in the marriage, you tell her "Canada or me." You need to stop with what people call sh!t tests. You've been testing her to see where you stand and that isn't helpful for either one of you.


----------



## ThePheonix

huanito said:


> New update
> 
> 
> I post this today because I am interested to see if anyone can actually come up with a reason this marriage should still be saved because I for one don't see it at all.


I said on another thread,_ "the main question a betrayed/mistreated/disrespected spouse should ask themselves is, "when the whole marriage, and what you'll be having to live with, is exposed to the harsh light of day, are you really going to be better off staying in the marriage?"._
Ask yourself that question my man and tell up what you come up with.


----------



## Blonde

marduk said:


> I believe he made it clear the he works two jobs, and she is frequently gone on the weekends and all summer with the kids, so he never gets to see them..


I don;t recall Huanito complaining about "never getting to see" the kids, nor about her being gone weekends.

He did say she takes the kids up to Canada during the summer to visit her family (who are not culturally supportive of affairs and adultery).

He also said he works a LOT and she begged him to spend more time with her. She said she is lonely. She doesn't even speak English and is far away from her family. She is full time SAHM to 3 children under 6 which is a relentless 24/7 job with little "adult time" even for me in America- and I speak English.

Now, he's telling her that she has to choose isolation, loneliness, and cut off any time with her family in order to keep Huanito (who works two jobs, has little time for her, and is extremely angry over the 5 year old betrayal...)

I totally get his feelings having just found out. BTDT. But I also feel very sorry for his lonely isolated wife with three children under 6 and between a rock and a hard place...


----------



## Blossom Leigh

@Blonde you describe his attitude as "extremely angry over the 5 year old betrayal...)"

I feel this is mischaracterization. When new information is found out in affairs, even if they are 20 years ago, and to the degree this one was the betrayal does not "feel" old to the WS. It is "fresh" as if it happened yesterday.

That is "why" he feels the way he does right now. It feels very fresh to him.

I like LH's post a lot. He can choose to put this decision on pause to truly vet out his feelings. I also like the idea of doing it from a distance. He needs healing space. Both of you need to expand your support system, OP.


----------



## huanito

Thanks for the input guys. I'm not forcing her to never see her family again. As I stated in previous posts I was never in full agreement of her having extended family stays in canada eveything years yet I never stopped her in the last 5 years even when I found out about the EA a move I regret now. I tried to make a lot of changes in the past in order to make her happy here. I stopped working two jobs in order to make more time for her and the kids, take other vacations together with her and the kids outside of the yearly vacation she takes every summer.

I'm still hurting and don't see how this marriage could work with all the past betrayal yet I am trying to keep things on hold for me to think things through. Everyday that past I am only becoming more determined that this relationship is over. 

Yet I told her that in the future we can go visit the family but we will go together and come back together stay about two weeks my vacation time yet she is not happy about that and I told her that with all I'm going through now and summer is around the corner I needed her to stay with me and work this out which she refused for her own selfish reasons. (This reminds me on my first post when a poster told me my marriage was in trouble and demand that she comes back and to work on this marriage. Although I took that advice at first and went to pick her up and asked her to come back with me if she wanted this relationship to work after discussing things I let her have her way and trust her and come back by myself a move I regret the most because at the time she was having the EA/PA but I was still trusting of her) it is true I've made far more effort if not the only effort in reconciling this relationship all the time.

I post this not to get talked back into saving this relationship or finding new ways but at the moment I'm puzzled on how any rational person who is not just looking at saving this marriage at all cost for the sake of the kids can come up with any reason for this relationship to continue. It's more my curiosity to find out for the sake of argument.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

huanito said:


> *it is true I've made far more effort if not the only effort in reconciling this relationship all the time.
> 
> *I post this not to get talked back into saving this relationship or finding new ways but at the moment I'm puzzled on how any rational person who is not just looking at saving this marriage at all cost for the sake of the kids can come up with any reason for this relationship to continue. It's more my curiosity to find out for the sake of argument.


The kids would be the only reason at this point AND that's with a fully committed remorseful willing wife. She's not.

Now, I will tell you... your affair triggers will continue into the next relationship, so just heads up on that, but the manipulation I saw in her reaction to you that I highlighted would be enough to send me packing IF she was showing no willingness to stop choosing that manipulative behavior. That comes from WAYYYYYYYYY before ya'll met. I wouldn't want a partner like that, affair or not, but especially no including an affair.


----------



## Blonde

Blossom Leigh said:


> @Blonde you describe his attitude as "extremely angry over the 5 year old betrayal...)"
> 
> I feel this is mischaracterization. When new information is found out in affairs, even if they are 20 years ago, and to the degree this one was the betrayal does not "feel" old to the WS. It is "fresh" as if it happened yesterday.
> 
> That is "why" he feels the way he does right now. It feels very fresh to him.


I really do "get" that BL. As I said BTDT. I've been in those shoes. The betrayal was 6 months in the past when I found out, not 5 years, but I totally understand how much it hurts and how confusing it is. At the time, my H had felt remorseful on his own and had been on his best behavior. I was so happy with the improvements in our marriage BEFORE I found out (I felt more in love with him than I ever had our entire marriage, I think) and then my heart was ripped out and trampled underfoot... (and we never recovered to the same level and the marriage is over now, but I see huge differences in this story and a great deal more hope for Mr and Mrs Huanito)


----------



## Be smart

Your wife told you about PA because OM is geting married in April if I remember corectly. She is feeling betrayed so she decided to open herself a little bit. You will never find the whole truth.

I can bet my life her sister knew about them and probably supported them.

You know where you stand right now. She is not willing to give up and fight for your marriage so the best option for you is to Divorce her. 

I dont have anything against you but I really hope you dont change your opinion about Divorce.

She used those trips to Canada to see her lover boy and it was going on for five years. This was to long my friend,sorry.

Stay strong


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

> I post this not to get talked back into saving this relationship or finding new ways but at the moment I'm puzzled on how any rational person who is not just looking at saving this marriage at all cost for the sake of the kids can come up with any reason for this relationship to continue. It's more my curiosity to find out for the sake of argument


. Well, you are getting what you asked for. I do not agree with Blonde at all in this instance, but I completely see where she is coming from on how she processed the information your provided. If this is how your wife felt, then of course you are a controlling man who doesn't understand your wife's needs. So, it is a rational for a husband to reconcile because his lack of actions and guilt of driving her to another another man, even though the affair is not his fault. 

Yet, if we are going to be rational, you decided to chase her down and reconnect without knowing the entire truth. You chose to ignore the signs and plod forward. You ended up walking into a trap of your own making. I've read all of your posts, even the few outside of your own threads and you tell people to do the opposite of what you did. You may think you understand, but at the time you felt what you did was rational.


----------



## Blonde

huanito said:


> I post this not to get talked back into saving this relationship or finding new ways but at the moment I'm puzzled on how any rational person who is not just looking at saving this marriage at all cost for the sake of the kids can come up with any reason for this relationship to continue. It's more my curiosity to find out for the sake of argument.


Your situation is complicated by this idea of living in two separate countries 13 hours apart. One or the other of you is going to see the children very little.

I'm pragmatic. And my own 33 year marriage is ending in divorce. So I don't have a leg to stand on telling anyone to keep a marriage at all costs.

On the surface, you and your wife have less baggage than my marriage had. You will ALWAYS have three children together so you will still have to deal with each other on occasion (graduations and weddings at least even if you live in separate countries). 

I have two teenagers and will stay single until they are up and out because I don't want them to have to navigate having a step-parent. Second marriages have a statistically higher rate of divorce than first marriages, and for blended families it is even higher.


----------



## metallicaluvr

Don't listen to these proreconciliation people, OP. Divorce this lying, cheating *****.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*yawn* Let us know when you actually read the thread.


----------



## Marduk

Blonde said:


> I don;t recall Huanito complaining about "never getting to see" the kids, nor about her being gone weekends.
> 
> He did say she takes the kids up to Canada during the summer to visit her family (who are not culturally supportive of affairs and adultery).
> 
> He also said he works a LOT and she begged him to spend more time with her. She said she is lonely. She doesn't even speak English and is far away from her family. She is full time SAHM to 3 children under 6 which is a relentless 24/7 job with little "adult time" even for me in America- and I speak English.
> 
> Now, he's telling her that she has to choose isolation, loneliness, and cut off any time with her family in order to keep Huanito (who works two jobs, has little time for her, and is extremely angry over the 5 year old betrayal...)
> 
> I totally get his feelings having just found out. BTDT. But I also feel very sorry for his lonely isolated wife with three children under 6 and between a rock and a hard place...


Fair enough, it was on his other thread that he went into details about it:



huanito said:


> My wife an I have been married for about 4 years now and have 2 kids. I have noticed that our relatioship changed a bit after the first couple of years and more so after the kids. I work and go to school full time while she is a stay at home wife taking care of our children.
> 
> My wife has family 11 hours drive away and she has been constantly asking (at times demanding) that she wanted to stay 2-3 with her family this summer. Although I was reluctant I agreed that I was fine with her staying two month with her family during the summer and now that she is gone and I don't have school I am feeling lonely and depressed because I miss my family. I have friends and can keep myself busy but I dont feel like it and I just want to be with my family.
> 
> I called her and begged her if she can cut her stay maybe a week or two weeks short since I really miss them and I also wanted time to spend with them since school will start in a couple of weeks after they are suppose to come back. She got upset of her asking to come back and told me that she doesn't see me that often due to school and work anyways she wants this time to spend with her family.
> 
> When i'm busy with work and school is to provide for my family for present and the future. It is not like i'm on a long extended vacation. I'm feeling and to be honest have been feeling for a while that my love for her is not the same as her love for me. I don't know if I should not think anything of it since I was ok with it to begin with or if I should really be worried that she is not into me anymore for her to just ignore my plead to come back a little early???


And there's more there.

However, I will say -- he did mention that she's never worked, never been able to 'hold down' a job, and that she 'freed' him to go back to work to his second job to support the family.

I think for me that supports the position that she's never really been reconciling to begin with. If she wanted to spend time with him, I don't think she'd be taking off to Canada or being unable to hold down a job.


----------



## Blonde

Did you forget that she is the primary caretaker for three children under 6? You should try it sometime. 40 hour weeks are a cakewalk in comparison.

The youngest is only two which involves pregnancy and infancy ( with sleep deprivation)

She doesn't speak English. Can't recall if he mentioned education level. . 

If she can get a job at all, it is not going to bring in very much money , not enough to pay for daycare. Her and huanito could do opposite swing shifts but they won't see each other much, and she's going to be too exhausted to keep up with a toddler after an overnight of cleaning offices or whatever


marduk said:


> Fair enough, it was on his other thread that he went into details about it:
> 
> 
> 
> And there's more there.
> 
> However, I will say -- he did mention that she's never worked, never been able to 'hold down' a job, and that she 'freed' him to go back to work to his second job to support the family.
> 
> I think for me that supports the position that she's never really been reconciling to begin with. If she wanted to spend time with him, I don't think she'd be taking off to Canada or being unable to hold down a job.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Blonde said:


> Did you forget that she is the primary caretaker for three children under 6? You should try it sometime. 40 hour weeks are a cakewalk in comparison.
> 
> The youngest is only two which involves pregnancy and infancy ( with sleep deprivation
> 
> she doesn't speak English. Can't recall if he mentioned education level. .
> 
> If she can get a job at all, it is not going to bring in very much money , not enough to pay for daycare. Her and huanito could do opposite swing shifts but they won't see each other much, and she's going to be too exhausted to keep up with a toddler exhausted after an overnight of cleaning offices or whatever
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My wife was a SAHM. 

And I asked her if she'd rather me take a second job or her a part time one if we needed the money. 

She said she'd far rather work part time and contribute - and get some time away from her mommy duties -- than have me work part time. 

You raise some really valid points. If this were in isolation, I'd be right there with you. But given the other stuff going on, like her still blaming him for the affair... I'm thinking it's actually more on the "poor me" pile.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ThePheonix

Blonde said:


> If she can get a job at all, it is not going to bring in very much money , not enough to pay for daycare.


If she and Huanito get divorced, maybe this other guy will call off the wedding, they can move in together somewhere in Canada, get engaged and the other guy can be her financier, errrrrr fiancé.


----------



## Blonde

ThePheonix said:


> If she and Huanito get divorced, maybe this other guy will call off the wedding, they can move in together somewhere in Canada, get engaged and the other guy can be her financier, errrrrr fiancé.


unlikely.

More likely she will get past her extreme remorse, grovelling, and begging for him not to break up the family. She will miss her kids and then she will get angry and get advice. She will find out that in America she can at least partial custody, get child support and public assistance.

Because huanito sponsored her, the government will attempt to recover whatever they can from him . I posted a link to the agreements of sponsorship in an earlier post ,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

There is no way the sister did not know of the WW's affair. She is toxic and an enemy of the marriage. I do not think Huanito is being controlling at all by asking WW not go to Canada. 

She has made her choice. It is done. She values her summers of singlehood more than her marriage. 

He needs to stop prevaricating and start making things happen for himself and his children. He needs to see a lawyer, find out his rights, and make sure that a provision is in place where she will be under legal order to bring the kids to the border to come see him. He needs to find a lawyer who is sharp and who knows international law.


----------



## ConanHub

Blonde said:


> unlikely.
> 
> More likely she will get past her extreme remorse, grovelling, and begging for him not to break up the family. She will miss her kids and then she will get angry and get advice. She will find out that in America she can at least partial custody, get child support and public assistance.
> 
> Because huanito sponsored her, the government will attempt to recover whatever they can from him . I posted a link to the agreements of sponsorship in an earlier post ,
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She isn't groveling at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

ConanHub said:


> She isn't groveling at all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agree. 

I struggle reconciling grovelling with "free to go back to your second job" and "no, I won't stop taking the kids out of country."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## honcho

bandit.45 said:


> There is no way the sister did not know of the WW's affair. She is toxic and an enemy of the marriage. I do not think Huanito is being controlling at all by asking WW not go to Canada.
> 
> She has made her choice. It is done. She values her summers of singlehood more than her marriage.
> 
> He needs to stop prevaricating and start making things happen for himself and his children. He needs to see a lawyer, find out his rights, and make sure that a provision is in place where she will be under legal order to bring the kids to the border to come see him. He needs to find a lawyer who is sharp and who knows international law.


He does need legal advice, he is completely underestimating the fiscal end of this, child support possible alimony and let's not forget half the assets etc. 

If she knows you intend to divorce and heads for Canada there would be no way I'd ever let the kids go with her without some sort of ironclad legal paperwork in order to protect your parental rights. She could just never come back and then this is an expensive legal mess getting the kids back in this country. Not saying she would but it's happened before.


----------



## huanito

I found out the OM'S cell and he has what's app. I sent him this message:


"The truth always has a way of revealing itself. I hope your guilty conscious eats at you for the rest of your life much like it did to my wife until she couldn't bear it. I will never forgive you and hope you burn in hell for what you did. I even regret consoling you at the hospital when your mother was crying because of your grandfather's death. (Believe it or not this was in summer of 2012 after finding out of the EA in 2011 and before my wife and i seperated yet I gave him a hug and gave him my condolences for his loss and he in return continued his PA with my wife after I left and seperated from her for few month ) 

I really truly considered you as my brother in the past but you had no problem having an affair and sleeping with my wife and both of you together had no issue concealing the truth for this long while another innocent boy was born into a relationship full of lies and until god made her suffer for her sins and she finally came out with the truth. 

Your evilness has no boundaries. You came in between a husband and wife who already had two young children together.

I know you are about to get married and I ask God that you reap what you sow for being a part of wrecking a happy home and depriving my children of both their parents.

I forgave my wife for coming out with the truth and she is the mother of my kids even though it hurts me really bad we will be ending our marriage.

I am texting you this because in the eyes of god justice will always prevail and I hope you get what's coming to you either here on earth or the after life.

I have no gain from attempting to shame my wife in front of the family or community because she is also the mother of my kids. I also hope that this dark secret will forever only stay and eat up your heart because I wouldn't want my kids to find out what their mother was capable of. "

I see that he received and seen my message but as usual did not reply. Not that I want a reply from him or engage in any conversation with him but I am also interested to know if he will call off the wedding.


----------



## sidney2718

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Go read it again, while thinking of the gender divide, it makes perfect sense.
> 
> Men understand the rage he felt when he caught his wife SEXTING a relative.
> 
> Women understand why she was scared to tell the full confession because he took the kids away.
> 
> The true line is a mixture of both and the red herrings are rage and scared, but gender anger can't see the middle.


This makes a good bit of sense. However, the gender role is not immutable. Sidney is very male.


----------



## sidney2718

Blonde said:


> I totally understand the pain and confusion from finding out about sexual betrayal. I have been there with my STBX. In 2009, I found out about a betrayal from 2008 and it was crushing. I felt similar to you. If my H had given me a track record of 5 years of trying his hardest like your W has been doing, he would not be STBX (soon to be ex). We would still be together.
> 
> But Huanito, are you are using this old betrayal as leverage to force her to cut off family ties? That"s what it sounds like to me and it comes across controlling. I have 8 children myself and know what it is like when they are young. Her sister won't be coming to visit her anytime soon.


Huanito comes across as controlling to me too. Everybody is different but I would have expected him to have a reaction similar to what you wrote above. The five years seems to make no difference to him.



> I do think you would do well to try to find a social group where your wife can find friends and support here in this country. Good friends can ease the pain of being far away from family. Is there a group of your language and culture anywhere nearby?
> 
> What is it about her sister's influence you don't like? Surely she is not supportive of adultery (you already said family doesn't know about that).


This is another good point. Another is this: is there any evidence that she is in contact with another man while she's with you and not in Canada?


----------



## sidney2718

marduk said:


> I believe he made it clear the he works two jobs, and she is frequently gone on the weekends and all summer with the kids, so he never gets to see them.
> 
> It's a reasonable request that your spouse doesn't take the kids outside the country for weeks or months at a time against your will without you regularly.
> 
> You know, it's probably the law, too.


He may have to file for divorce first (which is not the same as being divorced) in order to get a court order. That puts them all under a judges' jurisdiction. But were I he, I'd ask a lawyer.


----------



## Blonde

ConanHub said:


> She isn't groveling at all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She was grovelling and begging and wracked with guilt and remorse within the past week.



huanito said:


> My decision is still to divorce her but she had been pleading with me since I told her my decision. I would like to share some of her feelings towards this.
> 
> She is very sad and has been *begging* me not divorce her. She told me that she will give me a 100% freedom (not meaning I can cheat but I can go back to working my second part job which I stopped to stay with her and help her cope with her anxiety) she said I can monitor her every movement and all she wants in return is to remain my wife and raise our kids together.
> .






huanito said:


> For those who don't believe me I don't blame you. The issue now is her anxiety heightened and she feels very miserable *just sobbing all morning asking for my forgiveness *even though I told her I forgave her. She is just talking to herself saying that she regrets what she did and why did she ever do it. She really believes that her problem is not that of anxiety but more like what goes around comes around or Karma. She is wishing she told me this sooner and asked for my forgiveness instead of leaving me torment myself thinking about the what ifs and the true extent of the affair.
> 
> ... *This sense of guilt and regret *is something she bestowed upon herself and she needs to deal with it alone and quick because I don't want to hear about it or constantly be reminded of what happened otherwise I am not sure we can continue this relationship we may need time apart.


----------



## sidney2718

marduk said:


> However, I will say -- he did mention that she's never worked, never been able to 'hold down' a job, and that she 'freed' him to go back to work to his second job to support the family.
> 
> I think for me that supports the position that she's never really been reconciling to begin with. If she wanted to spend time with him, I don't think she'd be taking off to Canada or being unable to hold down a job.


Did I understand correctly that she speaks no English? If so how can she expect to hold down a job in the US?

If I'm right about the English I can understand her desire to see her family. What I don't understand is how they married and how they ended up in the US, which clearly was not a good place for the OP's wife who has no friends and no support group here.

Do I also understand correctly that the OP has several different active threads on this same situation. I do wish folks would not do that.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blonde said:


> She was grovelling a week ago.


She was manipulating a week ago. Very different from groveling.


----------



## Blonde

sydney, I think his other threads are from 2011 and 2012. Where Marduck quotes one of the old threads above, they only had two children. It was from years ago

The unfaithfulness was *years* ago and she has been trying to make amends through her actions and behavior ever since

Most of the posters seem to be stuck at the fact that the affair happened in Canada and think that every time she goes to Canada she's carrying on a fling. The OP said he had her on high surveillance for *two years* and was satisfied that she has been faithful. The OM moved years ago and was out of the picture during years of her summer visits and is now engaged. 

The best way to get Huanito's story is to click on his name and read only his posts. People are really making up some wild stories which are way off track (projecting, I presume).


----------



## ConanHub

Blonde said:


> She was grovelling and begging and wracked with guilt and remorse within the past week.


Groveling would indicate a willingness to comply with requirements to save the marriage. She is unwilling and has been unwilling, to take necessary steps and reestablish trust.

She is, in fact, begging to have the marriage on her terms.

Not groveling. Not that I think she should. She should have done a lot of things and should do them now if she wants her marriage.

She clearly does not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blonde

More remorse and wracked with guilt and trying to make amends....



huanito said:


> regardless of what triggered her anxiety she started to think about anyone she did wrong and tried to make amends, she even became more religious and trying to amend her guilty concious is why we are here today.
> 
> As a previous poster mentioned I am not holding her hostage on her guilty concious and letting her share her feelings in fact I tried to make things easier on her by reassuring her that I forgave her fo what happened in the past before I was really able to do so.
> 
> ,,,
> 
> This really took her back and she *pleaded* with me to fully forgive her but I told her I cannot forgive her for what I don't know in full details. She was reluctant to tell me details so we stopped talking for a little bit and took a break.


----------



## Blonde

Blossom Leigh said:


> She was manipulating a week ago. Very different from groveling.


BL their culture is clearly very patriarchal. Women have no power nor voice in a culture like that. 



huanito said:


> I reiterated my stance on everything I need for this relationship to work and that the simplest betrayal will end this relationship. I couldn't stress the last point enough because I truly mean it and I don't have no problem of letting her go I just didn't want to let her go for something that happened 5 years ago and which I believe she has tried to wrong her mistake by being an* obedient wife* the last couple of years.





huanito said:


> . She has been very supportive, interested, *obedient*, loving and understanding and although some of you may say you may never know what she maybe doing behind doors I am sure I can say the same thing about each and everyone of your relationships. Didn't get caught doesn't necessarily mean didn't do it. I put my wife on a much more strict surveillance than one might be willing to accept in a normal relationship because of her previous offense.
> 
> Bottom line is I have absolutely no issue with our relationship now and how it turned out after the affair. The big issue is her lying about the true extent of the affair 5 years ago.




I don't see manipulation. I see fear and desperation. She feels extremely powerless. She does not realize that her H can't just throw her out and keep the children from her. She thinks that without him she will be homeless and starving and her only choice is to go to her sister:



huanito said:


> *She feels very vulnerable because she had always been dependent on me*. I feel if she had family in the states or see that she had more opportunities in terms of being self sufficient she would have been more at ease moving forward with a divorce.
> 
> Sensing what she is feeling and knowing that she has been a stay at home mom for the whole term of our marriage and me personally not being able to just kick her to curb and fight supporting her because of her infidelity I told her that I will give her spousal support for a year while she tries to be independent.
> 
> She started to ask me questions to get reassurance that I will keep my promise and not change my mind after the divorce while at the same time saying she still wants to be with me. she is flip flopping.





huanito said:


> She has never worked and u supported the family all these years while she was a stay at home mom, she is not educated enough to land a good job. She has dropped out of school at a young age and doesn't speak English very well. She couldn't even keep the job she was hired on because of her not being qualified enough. Which is more reason for her to want to be with me because *she wouldn't be able to support herself let alone have custody and being able to support the kids on her own*. All her time in canada has been just as a visitor since she is not citizen or even a permenant resident and cannot work there either.
> 
> I can honestly say *that is her own problem* but I must say that I need to address how this will affect the children. Her parents are not in this country or canada they are abroad but she has siblings in canada especially the sister who she is very close to and stayed with all these summers.
> 
> Needless to say say *she has no where to go* but back to her sister in canada at the moment *since she cannot support herself here. *


----------



## ConanHub

Blonde said:


> More remorse and wracked with guilt and trying to make amends....


She didn't do what was necessary to restore trust. That is almost the single most important part of reconciliation after infidelity.

She didn't have it in her five years ago and doesn't today.

Crying and begging don't restore trust. Actions do.

She simply doesn't have it in her to earn trust.

huanito is a good man and has tried harder than most.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm

"I can bet my life her sister knew about them and probably supported them."

I too think that would be a safe bet.

As close as H said the two of them were, the chances she didn't know while WW was living with her for 3 months are almost nil.

And for those who say H is controlling.

IMO, he honestly would have been justified to cut off the summer long trips over the past 5 years even with just knowing it was an EA....she used the time away to carry on an A....PERIOD.

But H did NOT cut them off.

Now that he is aware that it was a PA....and carried out under circumstances that make it highly probable that his SIL had to know it was a PA (I know if my sister dropped my nephews off at my place and said she had to go to the store with an OS friend, and did not come back for 4 hours or more, I know what I would think....plus the extreme closeness of these sisters almost guarantees that WW confided in her sister)....well this , IMO, justifies H demanding that there be no trips to Canada to stay with toxic sister until the M is repaired.

Note H didn't say no trips EVER in the future....he said no trips alone until the M was healed significantly and in a better place.

The fact that she refuses shows she only wants R if its on HER terms.

Sorry....WS's don't get to set those parameters for R.


----------



## Blonde

ConanHub said:


> Groveling would indicate a willingness to comply with requirements to save the marriage. She is unwilling and has been unwilling, to take necessary steps and reestablish trust.
> 
> She is, in fact, begging to have the marriage on her terms.
> 
> Not groveling. Not that I think she should. She should have done a lot of things and should do them now if she wants her marriage.
> 
> She clearly does not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I see it differently

I am a huge believer that actions speak LOUDER than words and she has spent the past 5 years being an excellent wife by Huanito's own testimony. He surveilled her for *two years* without incident and without any objection from her. They made another baby who is now two.

But oh no, lets all get the stones out and stone her- the evil conniving adulteress!


----------



## ConanHub

Blonde said:


> BL their culture is clearly very patriarchal. Women have no power nor voice in a culture like that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see manipulation. I see fear and desperation. She feels extremely powerless. She does not realize that her H can't just throw her out and keep the children from her. She thinks that without him she will be homeless and starving and her only choice is to go to her sister:


I agree with this assessment but it doesn't show remorse, definitely desperation. She has displayed lying and manipulation for years however.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blonde said:


> BL their culture is clearly very patriarchal. Women have no power nor voice in a culture like that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see manipulation. I see fear and desperation. She feels extremely powerless. She does not realize that her H can't just throw her out and keep the children from her. She thinks that without him she will be homeless and starving and her only choice is to go to her sister:


I know you don't see it. 

I do, as do many others.

She is a fully functioning adult, being foreign doesn't make her stupid.


----------



## Blonde

huanito said:


> To answer some of the question above. How I know it's not happening anymore because I put her on extreme *surveillance* for the longest time the last couple of years. *I had her phone record. Recorded them for a while *in case I may need to refer back to it for any suspecious phone calls and also had GPS on her (I didn't go out the way to get the GPS but the vehicle has on star with gps that I have access to and for the past couple of years *she didn't go anywhere really unless it was with the me and the kids *which I didn't force her to but it was out of her own will to cut off everybody except her immediate family.
> .


^^I wonder how many cheating husbands would go through this??

If my cheating H had subjected himself to all that instead of railing at what a controlling biatch I am for wanting him to stop hanging out flirting in bars, we wouldn't be divorcing. Just sayin'


----------



## ConanHub

Blonde said:


> I see it differently
> 
> I am a huge believer that actions speak LOUDER than words and she has spent the past 5 years being an excellent wife by Huanito's own testimony. He surveilled her for *two years* without incident and without any objection from her. They made another baby who is now two.
> 
> But oh no, lets all get the stones out and stone her- the evil conniving adulteress!





Lying doesn't reestablish trust. Just because you lie about fvcking around on your H and then you're nice to him, doesn't fix things.




Do you comprehend that lying doesn't reestablish trust?

Do you understand that trust is necessary in a marriage?

Do you understand trust is especially necessary for a marriage to recover from infidelity?

I'm not bagging on her and advised huanito to get IC.

She really doesn't understand trust or how to earn it.

Lying for five years destroyed more than her affair to begin with.

I hope she does become educated and somehow gets independent.

I also hope she learns how to be trustworthy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blonde

Blossom Leigh said:


> I know you don't see it.
> 
> I do, as do many others.
> 
> She is a fully functioning adult, being foreign doesn't make her stupid.


It would be very disrespectful to think of her as "stupid"
That is a forbidden word in my household

She does not speak English. She dropped out of school at a young age (this is from a quote from Huanito a few posts up). She does not realize that she has any rights to child support nor spousal support in the US. She is from a patriarchal culture where women do not have rights. Women need to obey.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blonde said:


> It would be very disrespectful to think of her as "stupid"
> That is a forbidden word in my household
> 
> She does not speak English. She dropped out of school at a young age (this is from a quote from Huanito a few posts up). She does not realize that she has any rights to child support nor spousal support in the US. She is from a patriarchal culture where women do not have rights. Women need to obey.


So, she now lives in a culture where information is plentiful and translators to exist. She can learn.


----------



## ConanHub

Blonde said:


> It would be very disrespectful to think of her as "stupid"
> That is a forbidden word in my household
> 
> She does not speak English. She dropped out of school at a young age (this is from a quote from Huanito a few posts up). She does not realize that she has any rights to child support nor spousal support in the US. She is from a patriarchal culture where women do not have rights. Women need to obey.


I hope the best for her.

I hope she doesn't latch onto another man in hopes of support but becomes educated and independent.

Not to enact revenge or punitive damages against huanito, she has harmed him enough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

sidney2718 said:


> Huanito comes across as controlling to me too. Everybody is different but I would have expected him to have a reaction similar to what you wrote above. The five years seems to make no difference to him.
> 
> 
> 
> This is another good point. Another is this: is there any evidence that she is in contact with another man while she's with you and not in Canada?


Five years of lies. Lies lies lies.....

Of course she has been in contact with this guy. You actually think his marriage was going to stand in her way of seeing him again? When she gets back up to Canada she's going to make a beeline for him.


----------



## bandit.45

What is her nationality?


----------



## ConanHub

bandit.45 said:


> What is her nationality?


I think she is from Bangc0ck.

Alright. I hate myself for that one. Going now....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

ConanHub said:


> I think she is from Bangc0ck.
> 
> Alright. I hate myself for that one. Going now....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh....


----------



## Blonde

Blossom Leigh said:


> So, she now lives in a culture where information is plentiful and translators to exist. She can learn.


Blossom, I lived in a Muslim country and birthed my third child there. I won't go into a long story about my experience. Suffice to say I will never ever cross the border into a country where women have no rights again.

I am an educated woman; have a Master's degree.He told me to go ahead and leave but I could not take the children because they were on HIS visa (He was a missionary out at bars "witnessing" to the prostitutes). 

Not until much later did I realize that I could have gone to the American Embassy and gotten out WITH my children. Instead I was trapped.

Easy for you to say she could get translators and figure it all out...


----------



## Blonde

honcho said:


> He does need legal advice, he is completely underestimating the fiscal end of this, child support possible alimony and let's not forget half the assets etc.
> 
> If she knows you intend to divorce and heads for Canada there would be no way I'd ever let the kids go with her without some sort of ironclad legal paperwork in order to protect your parental rights. She could just never come back and then this is an expensive legal mess getting the kids back in this country. Not saying she would but it's happened before.


She has no permission to live in Canada, only goes for visits.


huanito said:


> Going back to the children we have. * I am a us citizen and she is a permenant resident in the us because I sponsored her*. all of our immediate family is on the other side of the border in canada. She has never worked and u supported the family all these years while she was a stay at home mom, she is not educated enough to land a good job. She has dropped out of school at a young age and doesn't speak English very well. She couldn't even keep the job she was hired on because of her not being qualified enough. Which is more reason for her to want to be with me because she wouldn't be able to support herself let alone have custody and being able to support the kids on her own. *All her time in canada has been just as a visitor since she is not citizen or even a permenant resident and cannot work there either*.




And Huanito (much as I believe he loves his children) is not going to have an easy go of it holding down his job and taking care of three young children with no wife, no family, and no social support around.


huanito said:


> I also believe I need *some time alone* maybe at least a year.
> 
> just thinking out loud.
> 
> ~confused soul





huanito said:


> and here I was* busting my ass off raising two kids by myself* during the seperation


5 months solo was hard on him. I don't think he wants to do it permanently. Sounds like his culture is very traditional and supportive of SAHM. Him being a working single parent dad with the children in daycare full time is probably not going to fly with grandma in Canada. Those kids are going to wind up with the ex-wife or with relatives (unless she can stay close enough that they can split custody)


----------



## Blonde

ConanHub said:


> You are fine with screwing other men and lying to your husband. That is very clear.
> 
> As long as you treat your husband good after you are done getting your fill of getting fvckked by another man, lying to him about it for the rest of your life is great.
> 
> Your character is impeccable I'm sure.
> 
> Lying doesn't reestablish trust. Just because you lie about fvcking around on your H and then you're nice to him, doesn't fix things.
> 
> Practice what you preach. Have fun cheating and lying. I walk according to advice I give and I guess I'll assume the same about you.
> 
> Unless you are a hypocrite and are giving advice you won't follow.
> 
> Do you comprehend that lying doesn't reestablish trust?
> 
> Do you understand that trust is necessary in a marriage?
> 
> Do you understand trust is especially necessary for a marriage to recover from infidelity?
> 
> I'm not bagging on her and advised huanito to get IC.
> 
> She really doesn't understand trust or how to earn it.
> 
> Lying for five years destroyed more than her affair to begin with.
> 
> I hope she does become educated and somehow gets independent.
> 
> I also hope she learns how to be trustworthy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Excuse me? You quoted me and then go on a flaming slanderous rant. And then get "liked"?

Geez...

I walked around on eggshells for years with my H; taught my children to do so too. If they broke something, hid it and covered for them. Lies of omission.

You know why?

BECAUSE OF HIS REACTION. I WAS AFRAID OF HIS REACTION.

So I completely "get" why she would be scared to share something this HUGE.


----------



## huanito

Blonde I'm sorry to say but you are assuming too much. For one I never stopped her from getting a job and actually pushed her to go to school or get a job to learn English on many occasions. BTW she can understand English but doesn't speak it very well. I have 5 sisters, three who actually hold a bachelors degree and my bother and I don't so you can say that the women in my family are more educated then the men (academically). She knows all her rights but simply does not want to live in the states and go through the hassles of a being a single mother, she wants to be near her sister. My cousin's sister has divorced twice and currently has 4 kids two from different fathers and actually lives as a single mother here in the states and she is from the same culture. I don't mean to defend myself but not only am I not controlling I've actually always given into all her demands. I believe a happy spouse makes a happy home. All my sisters worked and some now decided to be a SAHM and some are still working. I never forced her to be a SAHM. As far as culture is concerned i believe it is only relevant in the sense of how the community will react with exposing the PA which I personally don't care but she very much does and that is why I don't have any intentions of tainting her image by trying to expose the PA. All that will create is gossip about the mother of my children. 

Funny thing is back when we were fighting about her affair between 2011 and 2012 she stated to me on many occasions that in this country the law is tilted in supportive of the mother especially with young kids. She even told me that she can force me out of the house and I will be forced to still pay the mortgage and pay child support because she is raising my kids in the house. I'm not trying to start an argument of how much of what she said is true but she clearly knows that she has many rights.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blonde said:


> Blossom, I lived in a Muslim country and birthed my third child there. I won't go into a long story about my experience. Suffice to say I will never ever cross the border into a country where women have no rights again.
> 
> I am an educated woman; have a Master's degree.He told me to go ahead and leave but I could not take the children because they were on HIS visa (He was a missionary out at bars "witnessing" to the prostitutes).
> 
> Not until much later did I realize that I could have gone to the American Embassy and gotten out WITH my children. Instead I was trapped.
> 
> Easy for you to say she could get translators and figure it all out...


Last time I checked, this aint Iraq.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

huanito said:


> Blonde I'm sorry to say but you are assuming too much. For one I never stopped her from getting a job and actually pushed her to go to school or get a job to learn English on many occasions. BTW she can understand English but doesn't speak it very well. I have 5 sisters, three who actually hold a bachelors degree and my bother and I don't so you can say that the women in my family are more educated then the men (academically). She knows all her rights but simply does not want to live in the states and go through the hassles of a being a single mother, she wants to be near her sister. My cousin's sister has divorced twice and currently has 4 kids two from different fathers and actually lives as a single mother here in the states and she is from the same culture. I don't mean to defend myself but not only am I not controlling I've actually always given into all her demands. I believe a happy spouse makes a happy home. All my sisters worked and some now decided to be a SAHM and some are still working. I never forced her to be a SAHM. As far as culture is concerned i believe it is only relevant in the sense of how the community will react with exposing the PA which I personally don't care but she very much does and that is why I don't have any intentions of tainting her image by trying to expose the PA. All that will create is gossip about the mother of my children.
> 
> Funny thing is back when we were fighting about her affair between 2011 and 2012 she stated to me on many occasions that in this country the law is tilted in supportive of the mother especially with young kids. She even told me that she can force me out of the house and I will be forced to still pay the mortgage and pay child support because she is raising my kids in the house. I'm not trying to start an argument of how much of what she said is true but she clearly knows that she has many rights.


I rest my case. This woman knows full well what she's doing, where she is and how to manipulate her position. Trying to paint her as a helpless little girl ain't workin' Blonde. And as OP is pointing out, its being done based on A LOT of assumption. The first of which being that this guy is a chronic longterm abuser when he's not and she's terrified of him. Please, she plays him like a Stradivarius.


----------



## metallicaluvr

ConanHub said:


> You are fine with screwing other men and lying to your husband. That is very clear.
> 
> As long as you treat your husband good after you are done getting your fill of getting fvckked by another man, lying to him about it for the rest of your life is great.
> 
> Your character is impeccable I'm sure.
> 
> Lying doesn't reestablish trust. Just because you lie about fvcking around on your H and then you're nice to him, doesn't fix things.
> 
> Practice what you preach. Have fun cheating and lying. I walk according to advice I give and I guess I'll assume the same about you.
> 
> Unless you are a hypocrite and are giving advice you won't follow.
> 
> Do you comprehend that lying doesn't reestablish trust?
> 
> Do you understand that trust is necessary in a marriage?
> 
> Do you understand trust is especially necessary for a marriage to recover from infidelity?
> 
> I'm not bagging on her and advised huanito to get IC.
> 
> She really doesn't understand trust or how to earn it.
> 
> Lying for five years destroyed more than her affair to begin with.
> 
> I hope she does become educated and somehow gets independent.
> 
> I also hope she learns how to be trustworthy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I love you, marry me.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

huanito, it truly is sad the amount of female coddling that is happening in this country. It is not just on TAM. It is pervasive and I find it quite disturbing. I mean just yesterday I was having blood drawn in a doctors office and the nurse and I got to talking about people passing out at the sight of blood and we shared some funny stories. She shared a story about a guy passing out at the delivery of his child, fell so hard he broke his nose and busted his face and ended up in emergency surgery and admitted to the hospital, ended up missing the rest of the birth. I thought in my heart "poor guy, missed the birth of his child, busted his face bad and will probably never live that down." So, I said to the nurse, "Awww, poor guy!" She said back to me, "poor guy? poor her!" And I thought to myself.... You have got to be kidding me. No empathy for his pain whatsoever. She has a team around her and is a big girl, she can handle it. No wonder men are running from todays weak selfish "modern" woman. Frankly, I'm appalled. I truly wish your wife's attitude were different. She'll be just fine. She can cowgirl up and get on with it.


----------



## Marduk

Blonde said:


> She was grovelling and begging and wracked with guilt and remorse within the past week.


Ok. I see your point. 

How do you reconcile her words and her actions? Because I'll admit my bias that actions for me speak far louder than words -- orders of magnitude so. 

Words and tears are cheap. Maybe I'm just jaded.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

sidney2718 said:


> Did I understand correctly that she speaks no English? If so how can she expect to hold down a job in the US?
> 
> If I'm right about the English I can understand her desire to see her family. What I don't understand is how they married and how they ended up in the US, which clearly was not a good place for the OP's wife who has no friends and no support group here.
> 
> Do I also understand correctly that the OP has several different active threads on this same situation. I do wish folks would not do that.


That works up to a point. 

If you've been naturalized in a nation longer than a few years and don't speak the native tongue, that's kind of your choice though isn't it?

I'm reminded of my old sensei who spoke very good English, but claimed not to be able to when he just didn't want to talk to you any more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Blonde said:


> sydney, I think his other threads are from 2011 and 2012. Where Marduck quotes one of the old threads above, they only had two children. It was from years ago
> 
> The unfaithfulness was *years* ago and she has been trying to make amends through her actions and behavior ever since
> 
> Most of the posters seem to be stuck at the fact that the affair happened in Canada and think that every time she goes to Canada she's carrying on a fling. The OP said he had her on high surveillance for *two years* and was satisfied that she has been faithful. The OM moved years ago and was out of the picture during years of her summer visits and is now engaged.
> 
> The best way to get Huanito's story is to click on his name and read only his posts. People are really making up some wild stories which are way off track (projecting, I presume).


What about respect though?

Let's say I had family in the US and I spent summers there. Without my wife. 

Let's say I had an affair partner there that I went back to more than once after being caught in the affair. 

Would my wife not be well within her rights to say "go back to the US without me and I'm leaving you?"

I would expect that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Blonde said:


> BL their culture is clearly very patriarchal. Women have no power nor voice in a culture like that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see manipulation. I see fear and desperation. She feels extremely powerless. She does not realize that her H can't just throw her out and keep the children from her. She thinks that without him she will be homeless and starving and her only choice is to go to her sister:


Ok. 

So what advice would you give her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blonde

huanito said:


> Blonde I'm sorry to say but you are assuming too much. For one I never stopped her from getting a job and actually pushed her to go to school or get a job to learn English on many occasions. BTW she can understand English but doesn't speak it very well. I have 5 sisters, three who actually hold a bachelors degree and my bother and I don't so you can say that the women in my family are more educated then the men (academically). She knows all her rights but simply does not want to live in the states and go through the hassles of a being a single mother, she wants to be near her sister. My cousin's sister has divorced twice and currently has 4 kids two from different fathers and actually lives as a single mother here in the states and she is from the same culture. I don't mean to defend myself but not only am I not controlling I've actually always given into all her demands. I believe a happy spouse makes a happy home. All my sisters worked and some now decided to be a SAHM and some are still working. I never forced her to be a SAHM. As far as culture is concerned i believe it is only relevant in the sense of how the community will react with exposing the PA which I personally don't care but she very much does and that is why I don't have any intentions of tainting her image by trying to expose the PA. All that will create is gossip about the mother of my children.
> 
> Funny thing is back when we were fighting about her affair between 2011 and 2012 she stated to me on many occasions that in this country the law is tilted in supportive of the mother especially with young kids. She even told me that she can force me out of the house and I will be forced to still pay the mortgage and pay child support because she is raising my kids in the house. I'm not trying to start an argument of how much of what she said is true but she clearly knows that she has many rights.


I'm quite relieved to hear that she knows she has rights! You mentioned what your siblings did educationally and that your cousin's sister is divorced. What about your wife's siblings? She has a sister with 8 children- is she educated? are the children from the same father? Family culture has an influence too. Just because your family has a culture of education does not mean her family does. She was an early drop-out when you picked her and married her. I don't think it's fair for you to use that to put her down now. 

Plus, Huanito your wife has had very young children right now and has for several years and going to school and/or working while juggling all that is not an easy route. Perhaps she can return to school later? As it is now she is unqualified for a decent job. IMO school would be a much better investment of her energy than a dead end job.

If you succeed in separating her from the children, she will have plenty of time for self improvement (after recovering from the sadness)

By the way, I am quite impressed by your fluency and intelligence. If your wife is an intellectual match with you, perhaps she could do something enterpreneurial as a career? (eg. a home business) That route would not necessarily require any formal education. (I recently read about Muslim women in France who quit their govt jobs and opened online stores Headscarf ban turns France?s Muslim women towards homeworking | World news | The Guardian )


----------



## Marduk

Blonde said:


> I see it differently
> 
> I am a huge believer that actions speak LOUDER than words and she has spent the past 5 years being an excellent wife by Huanito's own testimony. He surveilled her for *two years* without incident and without any objection from her. They made another baby who is now two.
> 
> But oh no, lets all get the stones out and stone her- the evil conniving adulteress!


And throwing stones at the husband who's married to her helps how?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Blonde said:


> It would be very disrespectful to think of her as "stupid"
> That is a forbidden word in my household
> 
> She does not speak English. She dropped out of school at a young age (this is from a quote from Huanito a few posts up). She does not realize that she has any rights to child support nor spousal support in the US. She is from a patriarchal culture where women do not have rights. Women need to obey.


Past the point of what he said... You don't know any of that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

huanito said:


> Blonde I'm sorry to say but you are assuming too much. For one I never stopped her from getting a job and actually pushed her to go to school or get a job to learn English on many occasions.


Not everyone CAN learn a second language as an adult and for some people it is caused by a form of language processing disorder. Generally speaking, if your wife can understand but not speak the language well, her problem is with word retrieval. Adults who have this form of learning disability usually did poorly in school and became pretty shy in terms of speaking to others. Many countries do not even have the ability to identify poor performing students as potentially learning challenged due to neurological issues.

So please do not conclude that she failed to learn the language out of laziness.




> BTW she can understand English but doesn't speak it very well. I have 5 sisters, three who actually hold a bachelors degree and my bother and I don't so you can say that the women in my family are more educated then the men (academically).



Language acquizition is slower in boys than in girls, which partially accounts for boys performing poorer in school than girls. As a result, it stand to reason that the early student who performs well generally continues to perform, thus making college seem much more appealing.





> She knows all her rights but simply does not want to live in the states and go through the hassles of a being a single mother, she wants to be near her sister.



How can you possibly expect this woman to feel even slightly able to be a single parent living in a country that speaks a language that she cannot? Further, how can you expect this woman to feel even slightly able to make it work as a single parent with absolutely ZERO emotional support from friends or family? 



> My cousin's sister has divorced twice and currently has 4 kids two from different fathers and actually lives as a single mother here in the states and she is from the same culture.



If your culture seems to be so traditional as to heavily frown on premarital sex, why not name your culture? I find it highly suspect that you won't name your culture because I DO think it's highly relevant.





> I don't mean to defend myself but not only am I not controlling I've actually always given into all her demands. I believe a happy spouse makes a happy home.


Again, how could you have expected your wife to be happy and content being so isolated from any emotional support from family or friends? She was wholly dependent on YOU, for everything. She didn't like being so isolated which is why, IMO, she insisted she go back to Canada every summer and why she wants to go back to Canada once you two split up. There is NOTHING for her here in the states without you. She cannot work and support herself if she doesn't speak the language. She has no friends or family to be a source of support. 

If you've been so concerned with your wife's happiness why haven't your grasped what I've outlined above?





> All my sisters worked and some now decided to be a SAHM and some are still working. I never forced her to be a SAHM.


Say with me slowly now: 
"*my wife had no other choice but to be a SAHM here in the states because she cannot communicate in English.*"




> As far as culture is concerned i believe it is only relevant in the sense of how the community will react with exposing the PA which I personally don't care but she very much does and that is why I don't have any intentions of tainting her image by trying to expose the PA. All that will create is gossip about the mother of my children.


Your culture is extremely relevant and I'll explain why and I'll also explain why YOU can't see or understand the depth of your wife's total emotional and financial dependence upon YOU.

In traditional cultures women's education is not pushed or encouraged. Women are expected to become wives and mothers and are not expected to become educated to get a job and support themselves. As wives and mothers and their job is to take care of the home and family and they really don't need an education for that. 

Some women do well in their education and don't need any encouragement to into higher education. But for those women who have learning challenges, as I suspect your wife does, the lack of early intervention combined with the poor school performance, combined with not being encouraged or supported as they struggle through school leads to financial dependence for their entire lives. And considering how the traditional cultures tend to completely overlook a woman's needs/desires in place of focusing on her limited role as wife/mother, she learns that her happiness is only something that can be granted to her by a benevolent husband...and it seems you were not one of those.

Why you come to think your wife had some control over her life is because as a male in a traditional culture you were never introduced to the unhappy effects of a lack of choices in ones life and complete financial and emotional dependence on a benevolent husband. You assumed that your wife would be happy being a SAHM and you had no CLUE what she was going through being UNABLE to form supportive friendships in this country. You have admitted that your wife made demands that you be home more often...now can you see why this was vital to her? You were the ONLY adult in her life! She was painfully lonely and probably depressed much of the time.



> Funny thing is back when we were fighting about her affair between 2011 and 2012 she stated to me on many occasions that in this country the law is tilted in supportive of the mother especially with young kids. She even told me that she can force me out of the house and I will be forced to still pay the mortgage and pay child support because she is raising my kids in the house. I'm not trying to start an argument of how much of what she said is true but she clearly knows that she has many rights.


Then why didn't she do that? If she knew her rights and knew what you were like why didn't she tell you to leave and go about her daily routine of bed making and dinner planning IN COMPLETE AND TOTAL ISOLATION OF ANYMOTHER ADULT WITH WHOM SHE COULD COMMUNICATE!! She didn't do that and won't ever do that because....once again...she doesn't speak the language and cannot communicate and thus will remain isolated, lonely and probably depressed for the rest of her life.


You complete lack of understanding on what I wrote, because I can't believe I've had to spell this out, is stunning!


----------



## Blonde

marduk said:


> Ok.
> 
> So what advice would you give her?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was wondering how far her family lives from the Canadian border?

Potentially she could live very close to the border on the US side and share custody with Huanito while still being closer to her family for frequent visits.

I would also advise her to find social outlets where she lives- she needs *friends*. She is too isolated IMO, too dependent on family which lives very far away for her emotional needs. If she is moving closer to the border, she could move near a settlement of people who share her culture and language.


----------



## Marduk

ConanHub said:


> You are fine with screwing other men and lying to your husband. That is very clear.
> 
> As long as you treat your husband good after you are done getting your fill of getting fvckked by another man, lying to him about it for the rest of your life is great.
> 
> Your character is impeccable I'm sure.
> 
> Lying doesn't reestablish trust. Just because you lie about fvcking around on your H and then you're nice to him, doesn't fix things.
> 
> Practice what you preach. Have fun cheating and lying. I walk according to advice I give and I guess I'll assume the same about you.
> 
> Unless you are a hypocrite and are giving advice you won't follow.
> 
> Do you comprehend that lying doesn't reestablish trust?
> 
> Do you understand that trust is necessary in a marriage?
> 
> Do you understand trust is especially necessary for a marriage to recover from infidelity?
> 
> I'm not bagging on her and advised huanito to get IC.
> 
> She really doesn't understand trust or how to earn it.
> 
> Lying for five years destroyed more than her affair to begin with.
> 
> I hope she does become educated and somehow gets independent.
> 
> I also hope she learns how to be trustworthy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think that's what she's saying, and it's probably taking things too far. 

I don't agree with her stance at all, but I think she's advocating a position where his wife is uneducated, afraid, and made a mistake -- and is trying to make it better how she can. 

The mistake she makes in my opinion is that she's afraid (if so she wouldn't demand to spend her summers where the affair happened) nor made a mistake (she still blames him). 

And I struggle with being uneducated as anything more than a choice - because this one only seems weak or downtrodden when it suits her to be perceived as so. 

I don't think she is weak. I don't think she is stupid. I don't think she is evil, either. I think she got her thrills with another man, then realized that put her and her kids at risk so she stopped and acted nice. 

Then when the other man got engaged, her exit strategies went down, or she didn't get picked, or she had anxiety and sought support from her husband -- not realizing that after lying for five years all she was doing was twisting the knife and spitting in his eye.

And all that indicates to me is a total lack of empathy or realization on her part what she actually did. 

That, plus him being a hothead, plus how ****ed up the whole dynamic is, leads to the conclusion that they should split.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Blonde said:


> I was wondering how far her family lives from the Canadian border?
> 
> Potentially she could live very close to the border on the US side and share custody with Huanito while still being closer to her family for frequent visits.
> 
> I would also advise her to find social outlets where she lives- she needs *friends*. She is too isolated IMO, too dependent on family which lives very far away for her emotional needs. If she is moving closer to the border, she could move near a settlement of people who share her culture and language.


Agree 100% although on either side of the boarder I would recommend she naturalize a bit more. Kids raised in sub-societal groups have a much higher incidence of drug and gang activities.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

marduk said:


> Ok.
> 
> So what advice would you give her?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll answer that.

Take the kids and move back to Canada. Accept soon to be ex husbands spousal support and child support while you network with the help of family and friends, to find a job that doesn't require you to speak your nonnative language. Depending on where you are, if you are located near a large university with a top notch psych program, seek specialized tutoring geared toward adults newly diagnosed with language processing disorder who need to learn a second language in order to get a job that can lead to financial security.


----------



## Marduk

Anon Pink said:


> I'll answer that.
> 
> Take the kids and move back to Canada. Accept soon to be ex husbands spousal support and child support while you network with the help of family and friends, to find a job that doesn't require you to speak your nonnative language. Depending on where you are, if you are located near a large university with a top notch psych program, seek specialized tutoring geared toward adults newly diagnosed with language processing disorder who need to learn a second language in order to get a job that can lead to financial security.


I'd agree with that, although she very likely wouldn't be allowed to get a permanent visa in Canada -- no job, not married to a Canadian, and with kids in tow requiring education and health care.

I'm not saying I agree with that, just that it's not likely t happen.


----------



## Marduk

Anon Pink said:


> Not everyone CAN learn a second language as an adult and for some people it is caused by a form of language processing disorder. Generally speaking, if your wife can understand but not speak the language well, her problem is with word retrieval. Adults who have this form of learning disability usually did poorly in school and became pretty shy in terms of speaking to others. Many countries do not even have the ability to identify poor performing students as potentially learning challenged due to neurological issues.
> 
> So please do not conclude that she failed to learn the language out of laziness.


There is nothing to indicate a learning disability, and lots of evidence to indicate that she is, in fact, lazy.

OP can clear up the matter, but I suggest that her willingness to "free him" to go back to his second job, among other things, speaks volumes.



> Language acquizition is slower in boys than in girls, which partially accounts for boys performing poorer in school than girls. As a result, it stand to reason that the early student who performs well generally continues to perform, thus making college seem much more appealing.


Actually, the opposite is true. And either way, it's small enough of a factor to be considered noise in this equation.
Girl Talk: Are Women Really Better at Language? - Scientific American







> How can you possibly expect this woman to feel even slightly able to be a single parent living in a country that speaks a language that she cannot? Further, how can you expect this woman to feel even slightly able to make it work as a single parent with absolutely ZERO emotional support from friends or family?


If I were to move to say, Jakarta, I would learn Arabic. As would my wife and children. 

Because I would worry that I would get run over by a bus or something, and they'd need to be able to cope. And my wife would probably learn it faster than I could.

Hearing and speaking languages is actually comparatively easy, especially when you're embedded in the culture. 





> If your culture seems to be so traditional as to heavily frown on premarital sex, why not name your culture? I find it highly suspect that you won't name your culture because I DO think it's highly relevant.


Good question.







> Again, how could you have expected your wife to be happy and content being so isolated from any emotional support from family or friends? She was wholly dependent on YOU, for everything. She didn't like being so isolated which is why, IMO, she insisted she go back to Canada every summer and why she wants to go back to Canada once you two split up. There is NOTHING for her here in the states without you. She cannot work and support herself if she doesn't speak the language. She has no friends or family to be a source of support.


Another good question. How did you two come to live in America? Who's choice was it? Why did you make that choice?



> If you've been so concerned with your wife's happiness why haven't your grasped what I've outlined above?


I think he's answered it pretty well. Except his culture of origin.






> Say with me slowly now:
> "*my wife had no other choice but to be a SAHM here in the states because she cannot communicate in English.*"


To me, that sounds as much her choice as hers. 




> Your culture is extremely relevant and I'll explain why and I'll also explain why YOU can't see or understand the depth of your wife's total emotional and financial dependence upon YOU.
> 
> In traditional cultures women's education is not pushed or encouraged. Women are expected to become wives and mothers and are not expected to become educated to get a job and support themselves. As wives and mothers and their job is to take care of the home and family and they really don't need an education for that.
> 
> Some women do well in their education and don't need any encouragement to into higher education. But for those women who have learning challenges, as I suspect your wife does, the lack of early intervention combined with the poor school performance, combined with not being encouraged or supported as they struggle through school leads to financial dependence for their entire lives. And considering how the traditional cultures tend to completely overlook a woman's needs/desires in place of focusing on her limited role as wife/mother, she learns that her happiness is only something that can be granted to her by a benevolent husband...and it seems you were not one of those.
> 
> Why you come to think your wife had some control over her life is because as a male in a traditional culture you were never introduced to the unhappy effects of a lack of choices in ones life and complete financial and emotional dependence on a benevolent husband. You assumed that your wife would be happy being a SAHM and you had no CLUE what she was going through being UNABLE to form supportive friendships in this country. You have admitted that your wife made demands that you be home more often...now can you see why this was vital to her? You were the ONLY adult in her life! She was painfully lonely and probably depressed much of the time.
> 
> 
> 
> Then why didn't she do that? If she knew her rights and knew what you were like why didn't she tell you to leave and go about her daily routine of bed making and dinner planning IN COMPLETE AND TOTAL ISOLATION OF ANYMOTHER ADULT WITH WHOM SHE COULD COMMUNICATE!! She didn't do that and won't ever do that because....once again...she doesn't speak the language and cannot communicate and thus will remain isolated, lonely and probably depressed for the rest of her life.
> 
> 
> You complete lack of understanding on what I wrote, because I can't believe I've had to spell this out, is stunning!


I think you make some good points... However there's a lot of speculation sprinkled in there.

For example, if what you say is true... Why not agree to compromise on her yearly visits to Canada until the marriage gets better? There are phones, Skype, all kinds of things that do not require going back to where she had the affair without him.

For example, having them visit her instead. Last time I checked the roads to Canada also go to the US.


----------



## ConanHub

marduk said:


> I don't think that's what she's saying, and it's probably taking things too far.
> 
> I don't agree with her stance at all, but I think she's advocating a position where his wife is uneducated, afraid, and made a mistake -- and is trying to make it better how she can.
> 
> The mistake she makes in my opinion is that she's afraid (if so she wouldn't demand to spend her summers where the affair happened) nor made a mistake (she still blames him).
> 
> And I struggle with being uneducated as anything more than a choice - because this one only seems weak or downtrodden when it suits her to be perceived as so.
> 
> I don't think she is weak. I don't think she is stupid. I don't think she is evil, either. I think she got her thrills with another man, then realized that put her and her kids at risk so she stopped and acted nice.
> 
> Then when the other man got engaged, her exit strategies went down, or she didn't get picked, or she had anxiety and sought support from her husband -- not realizing that after lying for five years all she was doing was twisting the knife and spitting in his eye.
> 
> And all that indicates to me is a total lack of empathy or realization on her part what she actually did.
> 
> That, plus him being a hothead, plus how ****ed up the whole dynamic is, leads to the conclusion that they should split.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah. Afterwards, I thought the first part was exasperation with her view. The latter points about trust stand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

ConanHub said:


> Yeah. Afterwards, I thought the first part was exasperation with her view. The latter points about trust stand.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


All I have ever seen in this whole scenario was the classic "nice guy" who bores his wife, she ****s someone else, then goes back to him and plays nice when she's done.

With an intercultural twist and a five year gap.


----------



## ConanHub

ConanHub said:


> Lying doesn't reestablish trust. Just because you lie about fvcking around on your H and then you're nice to him, doesn't fix things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you comprehend that lying doesn't reestablish trust?
> 
> Do you understand that trust is necessary in a marriage?
> 
> Do you understand trust is especially necessary for a marriage to recover from infidelity?
> 
> I'm not bagging on her and advised huanito to get IC.
> 
> She really doesn't understand trust or how to earn it.
> 
> Lying for five years destroyed more than her affair to begin with.
> 
> I hope she does become educated and somehow gets independent.
> 
> I also hope she learns how to be trustworthy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There. Cleaned up a bit.

Sorry for losing my temper with you @Blonde

I feel for her as well but she didn't give what huanito needed to regain trust and security.

Maybe she wasn't even capable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lostinthought61

BLONDE "Most of the posters seem to be stuck at the fact that the affair happened in Canada and think that every time she goes to Canada she's carrying on a fling. The OP said he had her on high surveillance for *two years* and was satisfied that she has been faithful. The OM moved years ago and was out of the picture during years of her summer visits and is now engaged. "

What you are forgetting Blonde that while she has been carrying this guilt and lies for years he only just recently found out and so this is fresh to him regardless of what he thought he knew...the truth is out there and it is new to him...additionally because that affair happened in canada...it has become a trigger for him and a deep one and so whether the OM is gone and out of the picture H's wound are real and deep and fresh, so i suggest you put away your master degree in crap in just listen to his pain. regardless of how long she has been a good wife is lived a lie, she made him crazy with doubt and she has to own up to the responsibilities of proving herself from this point on..not the past 5 years...that was all staging. LISTEN TO WHAT HE IS SAYING


----------



## Anon Pink

marduk said:


> There is nothing to indicate a learning disability, and lots of evidence to indicate that she is, in fact, lazy.
> 
> OP can clear up the matter, but I suggest that her willingness to "free him" to go back to his second job, among other things, speaks volumes.


Wrong Marduk there is a LOT to indicate a learning disability, the two biggies are dropping out of school and not learning to speak a language she can understand.

I think you are probably being reactive to the wording OP used instead of seeking to understand what her intent might have been. If OP had written, "she said she won't demand that I be home with her and the kids all the time." It would have left an entirely different connotation. Based on what I have read from OP, he lacks understanding in several key areas.



> Actually, the opposite is true. And either way, it's small enough of a factor to be considered noise in this equation.
> Girl Talk: Are Women Really Better at Language? - Scientific American


Did you seriously just try to discredit me on child development? lol 








> If I were to move to say, Jakarta, I would learn Arabic. As would my wife and children.


Unless one of them had a language processing disorder.





> Hearing and speaking languages is actually comparatively easy, especially when you're embedded in the culture.


Unless you had a learning disorder involving language.











> To me, that sounds as much her choice as hers.


Unless she had a language processing disorder involving word retrieval. She couldn't even do day care if she couldn't speak the language! She was wholly and completely LIMITED and relegated to one thing only, stay at home and focus of role of wife and mother.






> I think you make some good points... However there's a lot of speculation sprinkled in there.


Of course I do! I know what I'm talking about! >

This entire thread is chock full of speculation. Which is how these thread normal disintegrate into absurdity.



> For example, if what you say is true... Why not agree to compromise on her yearly visits to Canada until the marriage gets better? There are phones, Skype, all kinds of things that do not require going back to where she had the affair without him.


Marduk, are you unable to put yourself in the shoes of someone who is completely dependent on another and has no emotional support? Those summer months were the ONLY opportunity his wife had to be with other adults with whose she could communicate. Phones, Skype...none of that ever takes the place of being with someone with whom you can communicate.



> For example, having them visit her instead. Last time I checked the roads to Canada also go to the US.


That's an excellent question that I would like to know too.


----------



## Blonde

marduk said:


> And I struggle with being uneducated as anything more than a choice - because this one only seems weak or downtrodden when it suits her to be perceived as so.





huanito said:


> she is not educated enough to land a good job. She has dropped out of school at a young age and doesn't speak English very well.


Decisions made in the mid teen years and in what context? (I can only imagine) are not a "choice" for which one should be forever condemned.

Huanito never said she perceives herself as weak or downtrodden or uses that as an excuse. She *volunteered* to go and leave all the children with him. 


huanito said:


> She doesn't want to stay here and be an single parent in fact she told me that she will give me the full custody of the kids and that there is no way around it. She even said that her sister has already 8 children and she can't burden them with hers. The kids are my responsibility.


----------



## Marduk

Anon Pink said:


> Wrong Marduk there is a LOT to indicate a learning disability, the two biggies are dropping out of school and not learning to speak a language she can understand.


They are as easily explained by laziness as they are by having a learning disability.

And learning disabilities don't account for her other lazy behaviours.



> I think you are probably being reactive to the wording OP used instead of seeking to understand what her intent might have been. If OP had written, "she said she won't demand that I be home with her and the kids all the time." It would have left an entirely different connotation. Based on what I have read from OP, he lacks understanding in several key areas.


OK. Let's seek to understand then. OP, *does she have a learning disability? Why doesn't she speak English? Why does she not work -- because she can't, or because she won't?*




> Did you seriously just try to discredit me on child development? lol
> 
> Unless you had a learning disorder involving language.


If you think that boys learn languages faster than girls, then I disagree.



> Unless one of them had a language processing disorder.


OK, I disagree with your premise but let's follow the logic.

Premise: she has a learning disorder. 
Is there any evidence that she sought to overcome it? No.
Is there any evidence that she sought other ways to process speech? No.

So even if I accept your premise, (for which I believe there is no evidence, but there's no point arguing about because the OP can answer that) she has still taken the easy path repeatedly rather than the correct path.

If she can't speak one of the native languages in the country she is living in, her existence is at risk. She could be caught in an emergency, her children could be hurt, her husband could be run over by a bus.

It is spectacularly unwise to follow this path, even if she has a learning disability. Yet she follows it. Why?



> Unless she had a language processing disorder involving word retrieval. She couldn't even do day care if she couldn't speak the language! She was wholly and completely LIMITED and relegated to one thing only, stay at home and focus of role of wife and mother.


Logically if she had such a disorder it would be indicated in her language of origin as well, and could indicate things like a temporal lobe disorder. 

Which also has many other symptoms.

Or are you advocating for a learning disability that only targets English, or only happens as an adult? Such as dementia? 



> Of course I do! I know what I'm talking about! >
> 
> This entire thread is chock full of speculation. Which is how these thread normal disintegrate into absurdity.
> 
> 
> 
> Marduk, are you unable to put yourself in the shoes of someone who is completely dependent on another and has no emotional support? Those summer months were the ONLY opportunity his wife had to be with other adults with whose she could communicate. Phones, Skype...none of that ever takes the place of being with someone with whom you can communicate.


You mean like the numerous battered women in shelters that I have regularly volunteered in since an early teen? Given tens of thousands of dollars to?

Sympathy does nothing. Growth does everything.



> That's an excellent question that I would like to know too.


Agreed.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> All I have ever seen in this whole scenario was the classic "nice guy" who bores his wife, she ****s someone else, then goes back to him and plays nice when she's done.
> 
> With an intercultural twist and a five year gap.


A lot of you men have said you are/were Nice Guys. Did you ever throw all your wife's things out and then destroy everything in the house? Did you threaten an OM so much that your family told you you were risking ruining your life, presumably with jail time?

Did the family of your wife tell her that if she got back together with you, they might not speak to her again? Did she do it anyway, and risk losing them forever, just to give you another chance?


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> A lot of you men have said you are/were Nice Guys. Did you ever throw all your wife's things out and then destroy everything in the house? Did you threaten an OM so much that your family told you you were risking ruining your life, presumably with jail time?


Lol, no.

But I won't say that I didn't think about it.



> Did the family of your wife tell her that if she got back together with you, they might not speak to her again? Did she do it anyway, and risk losing them forever, just to give you another chance?


My wife's family told her that before we got married.

It didn't work or stick, either.


----------



## Blonde

Xenote said:


> staging. LISTEN TO WHAT HE IS SAYING


READ MY POSTS. 

I am able to empathize very deeply with how Huanito feels having just found out about this betrayal. 
(which happened 5 years, two years of "harsh surveillance", and one baby ago)

Look up BTDT on this thread and you can read about my experience with discovering a historical betrayal.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Lol, no.
> 
> But I won't say that I didn't think about it.
> 
> 
> My wife's family told her that before we got married.
> 
> It didn't work or stick, either.


Why does his abuse make you laugh? It seemed to give you pause the other day. 

Do you see yourself as huanito, and your wife as his wife? Is that why you are willing now to overlook his past actions, and only focus on hers? You understand his pain, but not her fear?


----------



## Marduk

Blonde said:


> Decisions made in the mid teen years and in what context? (I can only imagine) are not a "choice" for which one should be forever condemned.
> 
> Huanito never said she perceives herself as weak or downtrodden or uses that as an excuse. She *volunteered* to go and leave all the children with him.


When one becomes an adult, one takes accountability for their current actions, correct?

Has she attempted to learn English and failed? As an adult?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blonde

Only my H, 5 years after that betrayal continued to break promises and betrayed some more.

Mrs Huanito OTH:



> She said that although she did me wrong *she tried to correct her wrong by trying to do everything right the last 5 years* and it has completely broken her heart that I was so quick to call and insist divorce. She says she doesn't know how she could feel secure in this marriage knowing how quick I am able to let her go yet *she doesn't want to be with anyone but me and that I will always be in her heart*.


I would feel very blessed if H had demonstrated even a sliver of such humility and penitence

Nevertheless, I am fine with their divorcing. They might both be better off.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Why does his abuse make you laugh? It seemed to give you pause the other day.
> 
> Do you see yourself as huanito, and your wife as his wife? Is that why you are willing now to overlook his past actions, and only focus on hers? You understand his pain, but not her fear?


It makes me laugh because you asked me the question not him, and you knew the answer, and just tried to attack my credibility instead of the argument. 

You're better than ad hominem attacks jld.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

marduk said:


> They are as easily explained by laziness as they are by having a learning disability.
> 
> And learning disabilities don't account for her other lazy behaviours.
> 
> 
> OK. Let's seek to understand then. OP, *does she have a learning disability? Why doesn't she speak English? Why does she not work -- because she can't, or because she won't?*
> 
> 
> 
> If you think that boys learn languages faster than girls, then I disagree.
> 
> 
> OK, I disagree with your premise but let's follow the logic.
> 
> Premise: she has a learning disorder.
> Is there any evidence that she sought to overcome it? No.
> Is there any evidence that she sought other ways to process speech? No.
> 
> So even if I accept your premise, (for which I believe there is no evidence, but there's no point arguing about because the OP can answer that) she has still taken the easy path repeatedly rather than the correct path.
> 
> If she can't speak one of the native languages in the country she is living in, her existence is at risk. She could be caught in an emergency, her children could be hurt, her husband could be run over by a bus.
> 
> It is spectacularly unwise to follow this path, even if she has a learning disability. Yet she follows it. Why?
> 
> 
> 
> Logically if she had such a disorder it would be indicated in her language of origin as well, and could indicate things like a temporal lobe disorder.
> 
> Which also has many other symptoms.
> 
> Or are you advocating for a learning disability that only targets English, or only happens as an adult? Such as dementia?
> 
> 
> You mean like the numerous battered women in shelters that I have regularly volunteered in since an early teen? Given tens of thousands of dollars to?
> 
> Sympathy does nothing. Growth does everything.
> 
> 
> Agreed.



Marduk you're being obtuse and I find it annoying as hell! You are hell bent on total demonization of a cheating wife and as such you will not allow anything that doesn't support your opinion to go unchallenged. So okay, I'll play until noon.

Temporal lobe disorder is typically found in adults and doesn't always, though usually does, involve dementia-like symptoms. You know I know this because my mother had Lewey Body Dementia, which is a form of temporal lobe disorder. Furthermore, temporal lobe disorder usually involves physical movement disorders as well. Leaning to one side unaware, Parkinson's type shaking, foot dragging.

Learning disabilities are generally caught in elementary grades with the bulk of those diagnoses being boys. There is speculation on why so I won't go into that. Since we know that the bulk of early diagnoses are boys it stand to reason that girls who exhibit symptoms of an LD can go unnoticed. When it comes to language processing disorders early diagnoses is actually rare. Children learn at different rates and a language processing disorder can be masked by a number of behaviors. Girls tend to become shy, withdrawn and introverted while boys tend to become aggressive and act out. Which points to why boys are diagnosed more frequently than girls. The quiet ones who don't get into trouble, yet perform poorly are judged to be day dreamers and need to learn to pay attention better. Sometimes these girls learn to read early because their language blockage involves output, not input. In reading they find ways they can understand and make sense of the world, and ways to communicate. But when it comes to speaking, they sound as if they are really nervous, or forgetful, can't remember what they wanted to say, can't find the right word and they endlessly describe around but can't retrieve the word. They sounds like this:

"At eating time I sat at the.. the start, where the table starts, at that place where there isn't a seat next on one side but there is on the other side. I had Jane on one side and she did this with her food [child mimics the motion of smashing] and I wanted to too but then the lady...the woman who is in the place...where we get lunch and sometimes before school where the ball is kicked."

All that to communicate that Jane smashed her potato chips and she wanted to do it too but the cafeteria aide stopped her. To the untrained observer, one would give teachers and parents gold stars for not interrupting a child who speaks with such circumnavigation at all times. Most people, parents included would continually interrupt the child, grow bored and frustrated listening to a painful exercise in word retrieval, and the worst offenders, parents and teachers included, would rush the child along or simply walk away.

My example was an example of a child who typically was met with patience as she struggled to communicate and so she hasn't given up trying.

Language processing is frequently undiagnosed particularly in girls. As a result, school failure. Without intervention, a child with LD is not taught the tools to skirt around the anomolously wired neuro synapses.

So NO, Marduk, it is HIGHLY likely that she dropped out of school because she performed poorly and in the absence of severe behavioral issues, she performed poorly because she went undiagnosed with having a learning challenge. Those with learning disabilities are ANYTHING but lazy!


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> It makes me laugh because you asked me the question not him, and you knew the answer, and just tried to attack my credibility instead of the argument.
> 
> You're better than ad hominem attacks jld.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There was no ad hominem attack in there. And I see only deflection in your response. Why not answer my questions?

Moderators, why were the posts from last Friday, in particular my post quoting huanito's own description of his abuse of his wife and his threatening his cousin, removed?


----------



## huanito

I am not sure if I got my point across before speaking about culture but I guess what I am trying to say is that culture here in north America is optional. Everyone has a choice and my wife knows that. I may not be wording this very well but I will give you an example.

My wife and I have been married for almost 10 years. we married young, I was 21 and she was 18. She came here to the united state as a young adult. We have extended family and relatives here (my cousins family) in the states but guess what, she burned all the bridges here with the family in the united states by gossiping about them with friends she made in the USA. They helped her whenever they could and she always talked behind their back. I told her on many occasion instead of chatting on the phone all the time and gossiping all the time, go to school try to learn English or get a job or do something constructive but she did not want to. She never attempted to do anything for herself. she has pretty much cut off ties with all her immediate family aside from her parents and sister and BTW almost all of this bad blood was initiated by the sister, If it wasn't for the affair I would have guessed her sister being the reason for the failure of our marriage. Basically in short when she says I want to spent time with the family she wants to spend time with her sister. 

Forget everything I mentioned the strongest point I may have are her own word. She told me when she started having anxiety issues and mental break downs and I quote "I used to have strength and felt untouchable when I was driving you crazy with the OM, and I used to gossip about people who had nothing but the best intentions for me but now I am paying the price, Some people pay for their sins sooner and some later. I was in the later category because now I am finally paying the price and I will from now on live my life as best as I can"

I am a man of faith too and I am glad she is repenting for her wrong doing to me and everyone else. Now is always better then never but I bring this up to show that she clearly had a choice of how to live her life a choice she clearly regrets now.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blonde said:


> Only my H, 5 years after that betrayal continued to break promises and betrayed some more.
> 
> Mrs Huanito OTH:
> 
> 
> 
> I would feel very blessed if H had demonstrated even a sliver of such humility and penitence
> 
> Nevertheless, I am fine with their divorcing. They might both be better off.


No, you wouldn't Blonde. She pulled the quintessential victim card on him complete with blameshifting, gaslighting, etc. You would not want that kind of "humility and penitence."

True humility and penitence looks like this... "you know what, I totally screwed up this marriage by my infidelity and I don't blame you today for being upset for my continual lying for the past five years, I should have never done that and should have told you everything upfront, but I was afraid. If you want to divorce me, I understand and will not hold it against you. You owe me nothing for my behavior."

THAT would have given him something to work with. What she did the other day is NOT that.


----------



## Blonde

marduk said:


> When one becomes an adult, one takes accountability for their current actions, correct?
> 
> Has she attempted to learn English and failed? As an adult?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


my H had this tape from his daddy

"lazy, worthless, good for nothing, reject"

he repeated it with his children

she isn't lazy, worthless, and good for nothing just because she can't speak english and has a history of dropping out of school early

just sayin'


----------



## jld

She may also have just been poor and without many known resources or encouragement. Kind of like now.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

huanito said:


> I am not sure if I got my point across before speaking about culture but I guess what I am trying to say is that culture here in north America is optional. Everyone has a choice and my wife knows that. I may not be wording this very well but I will give you an example.
> 
> My wife and I have been married for almost 10 years. we married young, I was 21 and she was 18. She came here to the united state as a young adult. We have extended family and relatives here (my cousins family) in the states but guess what, she burned all the bridges here with the family in the united states by gossiping about them with friends she made in the USA. They helped her whenever they could and she always talked behind their back. I told her on many occasion instead of chatting on the phone all the time and gossiping all the time, go to school try to learn English or get a job or do something constructive but she did not want to. She never attempted to do anything for herself. she has pretty much cut off ties with all her immediate family aside from her parents and sister and BTW almost all of this bad blood was initiated by the sister, If it wasn't for the affair I would have guessed her sister being the reason for the failure of our marriage. Basically in short when she says I want to spent time with the family she wants to spend time with her sister.
> 
> Forget everything I mentioned the strongest point I may have are her own word. She told me when she started having anxiety issues and mental break downs and I quote "I used to have strength and felt untouchable when I was driving you crazy with the OM, and I used to gossip about people who had nothing but the best intentions for me but now I am paying the price, Some people pay for their sins sooner and some later. I was in the later category because now I am finally paying the price and I will from now on live my life as best as I can"
> 
> I am a man of faith too and I am glad she is repenting for her wrong doing to me and everyone else. Now is always better then never but I bring this up to show that she clearly had a choice of how to live her life a choice she clearly regrets now.


You gave her a gift huanito...


----------



## jld

Huanito, she clearly learned some unhealthy habits growing up. She is showing awareness of that now. 

You could both learn healthier ways of resolving conflict. You do not have to divorce.


----------



## Blonde

huanito said:


> I am not sure if I got my point across before speaking about culture but I guess what I am trying to say is that culture here in north America is optional. Everyone has a choice and my wife knows that. I may not be wording this very well but I will give you an example.
> 
> My wife and I have been married for almost 10 years. we married young, I was 21 and she was 18. She came here to the united state as a young adult. We have extended family and relatives here (my cousins family) in the states but guess what, she burned all the bridges here with the family in the united states by gossiping about them with friends she made in the USA. They helped her whenever they could and she always talked behind their back. I told her on many occasion instead of chatting on the phone all the time and gossiping all the time, go to school try to learn English or get a job or do something constructive but she did not want to. She never attempted to do anything for herself. she has pretty much cut off ties with all her immediate family aside from her parents and sister and BTW almost all of this bad blood was initiated by the sister, If it wasn't for the affair I would have guessed her sister being the reason for the failure of our marriage. Basically in short when she says I want to spent time with the family she wants to spend time with her sister.
> 
> Forget everything I mentioned the strongest point I may have are her own word. She told me when she started having anxiety issues and mental break downs and I quote "I used to have strength and felt untouchable when I was driving you crazy with the OM, and I used to gossip about people who had nothing but the best intentions for me but now I am paying the price, Some people pay for their sins sooner and some later. I was in the later category because now I am finally paying the price and I will from now on live my life as best as I can"
> 
> I am a man of faith too and I am glad she is repenting for her wrong doing to me and everyone else. Now is always better then never but I bring this up to show that she clearly had a choice of how to live her life a choice she clearly regrets now.


when someone is in their cheating mode, they are a$$es, huanito

her feeling manic and her mean streak- goes along with the cheating

Yes she had a choice and she chose to cheat 5 years ago. Too bad you didn't just end it then. I wish I had ended it the first time H cheated 7 years in instead of wasting 33 years of my life. It was a deeply rooted character issue which did not go away but came back again and again.

Could be with her as well. But I see her behavior since as character growth. She seems to have insight into how she was and how it impacted you and she seems to want to be a better woman than she was.

We are all human and we all fail at times. Do we take the opportunity to grow? or do we deny our failings and pretend to be perfect?

If you are Catholic/Christian, you might want to try this with your wife as a last ditch effort. It is awesome! Marriage Help Program For Couples


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> But I see her behavior since as character growth. She seems to have insight into how she was and how it impacted you and she seems to want to be a better woman than she was.
> 
> We are all human and we all fail at times. Do we take the opportunity to grow? or do we deny our failings and pretend to be perfect?


What is she supposed to do at this point, huanito? She has offered to leave the kids with you and go to her sister in Canada, right? 

I cannot even imagine how much it must hurt her to think of leaving such small children. Yet she is still willing to be that "obedient" wife.


----------



## huanito

jld said:


> Huanito, she clearly learned some unhealthy habits growing up. She is showing awareness of that now.
> 
> You could both learn healthier ways of resolving conflict. You do not have to divorce.



I think about that myself sometimes. I have been waiting years for my wife to come to this point of realization at many time at the expense of my own emotional well being and I think to myself you were patient all these years so why give up now on this marriage?

I think all these years I was lying to myself deep down I have never accepted that a PA has a occurred because that has hurt me more than anything when I found out and it is becoming harder and harder to accept. Deep down I love my wife and I'm in such an emotional mess that we may not be able to live together for two long because I keep switching between I love you, I hate you moment. I know what I want but I can't change how I feel.

We live in the state of NC in which you have to be separated living separately for 1 year before getting a divorce so yes we still have time although I feel like with her being away from me I will have a better chance of being able cope and ultimately see myself living without her. As a matter of fact I asked her to stay here this summer because I needed her when I see her and she is in front of me I cannot stay mad at her and same with her but she is walking away knowing that this could end our marriage. 

This also hurts because we have a history of fights related to the sister. I always felt and told her she put her sister over me. What am I in this marriage if she now reveals to me the extent of the affair and then will not even stay with me to cope and fix this marriage and instead chooses to spend time with her sister. 

All I can say now is we will be separating and I hope I can learn to live without her, if anytime this is my chance. My friends and some relatives have given up on me in the past and told me that my wife will do anything to me I will not divorce her simply because I love her and many time I felt she sees that too. I feel like she may never see how good she had it in this relationship until it is over. I told her in the past after the EA that my love for her may seem boundless and every time she hurt me I easily let her back into my heart and she always took it for granted but there maybe a day when everything shuts down and no matter what you do you may never able to get me back. It seems to me she is still trying to push her limits and not believing even though I am telling her this is it. 

It is no longer in my hand to save this marriage.


----------



## Anon Pink

huanito said:


> I am not sure if I got my point across before speaking about culture but I guess what I am trying to say is that culture here in north America is optional. Everyone has a choice and my wife knows that. I may not be wording this very well but I will give you an example.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *My wife and I have been married for almost 10 years. we married young, I was 21 and she was 18. She came here to the united state as a young adult.*
> 
> 
> 
> So she married you the same year she arrived in the United States...from what country? She married at the age of 18 from, I'm assuming because you are being vague and I suspect deliberately so, her home country which is a culture that keeps to very traditional values and expectations on women? At the age of 18 became married in a country in which she doesn't speak the language? From a country that no doubt hardly recognizes the importance of early identification and intervention of children performing poorly in school? A country from which it is expected that the woman become a wife and mother and the man lead his household? A country that restricts women in order to hold their cultural values in place?
> 
> I have a theory about those countries that keep to traditional values by restricting women, even though they say women can attend whatever university they want when the truth is their home environment is where the heaviest restrictions come from. Women who have little choices in life except whom to marry and what to wear. Women who lived in a home where father ruled the roost, women served the men, and the men provided for the women are not women who have learned to resolve conflicts because women had 2 choices when it came to conflicts.
> 1. Go along with what the husband wants.
> 2. Throw unholy and irrational hissy fits in order to have some decision making power in something.
> 
> It is these women from these cultures where they never see how he right to self determination means that we do not have to behave like children in order to determine how we wish to live our lives, how we wish to spend our money, how we wish to raise our children, where we wish to live...
> 
> OP, you really need to come clean on your wife's home country and her family's cultural heritage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have extended family and relatives here (my cousins family) in the states but guess what, she burned all the bridges here with the family in the united states by gossiping about them with friends she made in the USA. They helped her whenever they could and she always talked behind their back.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow, an 18 year old girl being catty! Imagine that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I told her on many occasion instead of chatting on the phone all the time and gossiping all the time, go to school try to learn English or get a job or do something constructive but she did not want to. She never attempted to do anything for herself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hmmm, if that's how you put it no wonder she gave you to proverbial finger on your generous offer! Exactly how was she to attempt to do anything for herself when she came from a culture that actively frowns upon women making their own life choices? Exactly how was she to tackle the very real impediment of learning English when she had a long history of learning failure?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> she has pretty much cut off ties with all her immediate family aside from her parents and sister and BTW almost all of this bad blood was initiated by the sister, If it wasn't for the affair I would have guessed her sister being the reason for the failure of our marriage. Basically in short when she says I want to spent time with the family she wants to spend time with her sister.
> 
> Forget everything I mentioned the strongest point I may have are her own word. She told me when she started having anxiety issues and mental break downs and I quote "I used to have strength and felt untouchable when I was driving you crazy with the OM, and I used to gossip about people who had nothing but the best intentions for me but now I am paying the price, Some people pay for their sins sooner and some later. I was in the later category because now I am finally paying the price and I will from now on live my life as best as I can"
> 
> I am a man of faith too and I am glad she is repenting for her wrong doing to me and everyone else. Now is always better then never but I bring this up to show that she clearly had a choice of how to live her life a choice she clearly regrets now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I see a very young women thrust into a situation, marriage, children, immigrating, isolation, lack of choices, lack of skills, who had no coping skills and made some horrendous mistakes and stupid blunders.
> 
> I see a man who lacks understanding of the plight of women in culturally oppressive, restrictive environments. I see a man who thought life was grand taking an 18 year old bride and only much later realized his bride was actually still very much a child, due to both immaturity and the cultural influence against girls development to independence. I see a man who has anger problems and a man who, frankly, doesn't deserve this woman because once she gets her feet on the ground and learns that she CAN learn, there will be no stopping her and the result will be breathtaking!
Click to expand...


----------



## Blossom Leigh

OliviaG said:


> No, I wasn't directing any of that post at you Blossom. I just mentioned at the beginning of it that I thought you had just been joking in your post about Gus winning the "zingers" contest.


Gotcha, good deal. Thanks :nerd:


----------



## sparrow555

I am curious about the motivation of the 'posse' in trying to manipulate the OP into not divorcing her using all kinds of guilt language.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

sparrow555 said:


> I am curious about the motivation of the 'posse' in trying to manipulate the OP into not divorcing her using all kinds of guilt language.


And for the record y'all, his wife is from Canada.... not a third world country or in todays politically correct vernacular, "undeveloped/underdeveloped" country.


----------



## ConanHub

jld said:


> What is she supposed to do at this point, huanito? She has offered to leave the kids with you and go to her sister in Canada, right?
> 
> I cannot even imagine how much it must hurt her to think of leaving such small children. Yet she is still willing to be that "obedient" wife.


She wants to go. He doesn't want her to.

She is not being obedient unless you have a different definition.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blonde

huanito said:


> It is no longer in my hand to save this marriage.


Ask her if she would be willing to attend this with you. If it doesn't help, nothing will. Marriage Help Program For Couples


----------



## jld

ConanHub said:


> She wants to go. He doesn't want her to.
> 
> She is not being obedient unless you have a different definition.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He told her it is over and she is going along with it, correct? How is that not being "obedient"?

Not that she should be "obedient." She should be looking into her rights and exercising them.


----------



## Anon Pink

sparrow555 said:


> I am curious about the motivation of the 'posse' in trying to manipulate the OP into not divorcing her using all kinds of guilt language.


I'm assuming you are referring to me with me being a dissenter of majority opinion and I'm a woman on top of all that...

I actually think she would be better off in Canada so unless OP is willing to move there, I'm all for a divorce. 

I jumped into this thread because of the demonization and lack of understanding.

Please keep in mind that understanding is not synonymous with excuse, though many think it is, it is NOT!


----------



## Blonde

Blossom Leigh said:


> And for the record y'all, his wife is from Canada.... not a third world country or in todays politically correct vernacular, "undeveloped/underdeveloped" country.


wrong



> I am a us citizen and she is a permenant resident in the us because I sponsored her. all of our immediate family is on the other side of the border in canada. ... All her time in canada has been *just as a visitor since she is not citizen or even a permenant resident* and cannot work there either.


----------



## Marduk

Anon Pink said:


> Marduk you're being obtuse and I find it annoying as hell! You are hell bent on total demonization of a cheating wife and as such you will not allow anything that doesn't support your opinion to go unchallenged. So okay, I'll play until noon.
> 
> Temporal lobe disorder is typically found in adults and doesn't always, though usually does, involve dementia-like symptoms. You know I know this because my mother had Lewey Body Dementia, which is a form of temporal lobe disorder. Furthermore, temporal lobe disorder usually involves physical movement disorders as well. Leaning to one side unaware, Parkinson's type shaking, foot dragging.
> 
> Learning disabilities are generally caught in elementary grades with the bulk of those diagnoses being boys. There is speculation on why so I won't go into that. Since we know that the bulk of early diagnoses are boys it stand to reason that girls who exhibit symptoms of an LD can go unnoticed. When it comes to language processing disorders early diagnoses is actually rare. Children learn at different rates and a language processing disorder can be masked by a number of behaviors. Girls tend to become shy, withdrawn and introverted while boys tend to become aggressive and act out. Which points to why boys are diagnosed more frequently than girls. The quiet ones who don't get into trouble, yet perform poorly are judged to be day dreamers and need to learn to pay attention better. Sometimes these girls learn to read early because their language blockage involves output, not input. In reading they find ways they can understand and make sense of the world, and ways to communicate. But when it comes to speaking, they sound as if they are really nervous, or forgetful, can't remember what they wanted to say, can't find the right word and they endlessly describe around but can't retrieve the word. They sounds like this:
> 
> "At eating time I sat at the.. the start, where the table starts, at that place where there isn't a seat next on one side but there is on the other side. I had Jane on one side and she did this with her food [child mimics the motion of smashing] and I wanted to too but then the lady...the woman who is in the place...where we get lunch and sometimes before school where the ball is kicked."
> 
> All that to communicate that Jane smashed her potato chips and she wanted to do it too but the cafeteria aide stopped her. To the untrained observer, one would give teachers and parents gold stars for not interrupting a child who speaks with such circumnavigation at all times. Most people, parents included would continually interrupt the child, grow bored and frustrated listening to a painful exercise in word retrieval, and the worst offenders, parents and teachers included, would rush the child along or simply walk away.
> 
> My example was an example of a child who typically was met with patience as she struggled to communicate and so she hasn't given up trying.
> 
> Language processing is frequently undiagnosed particularly in girls. As a result, school failure. Without intervention, a child with LD is not taught the tools to skirt around the anomolously wired neuro synapses.
> 
> So NO, Marduk, it is HIGHLY likely that she dropped out of school because she performed poorly and in the absence of severe behavioral issues, she performed poorly because she went undiagnosed with having a learning challenge. Those with learning disabilities are ANYTHING but lazy!


All fine and good. 

Except that zero diagnostic indicators are given except an early school dropout, and no indicators of any secondary characteristics are given. 

And we have contradictive indicators such as no mention of language processing issues in her native tongue, and other behaviours that indicate a lack of drive. 

You are jumping to a language disorder which seems to hit only 3% of the female population according to ASHA. Based on one data point. 

I struggle with that logic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blonde said:


> wrong


Well, then she sure screwed up her gravy train didn't she.


----------



## ConanHub

jld said:


> He told her it is over and she is going along with it, correct? How is that not being "obedient"?
> 
> Not that she should be "obedient." She should be looking into her rights and exercising them.


I suppose she could contest the divorce.

She has zero interest in staying. He isn't kicking her out.

She should look into her rights regardless of everything else.

She isn't being obedient by going to Canada.

You infer it is his will. It is not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LosingHim

So many people saying she's from a patriarchal culture, she has no opinion, she must obey, she's subservient, etc and using it as a reason she can't stand on her own two feet, she can't possibly be left to fend for herself, etc.....

Where was this background of culture when she cheated? She certainly was not obeying her husband or her religion or whatever it may be when she did that? Her culture and upbringing didn't matter then, so why does it matter so much now?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

OliviaG said:


> Huanito, I have not caught up on all the posts since the last time I posted, so I don't know if I've missed anything that might influence my thinking - just wanted to say that up front.
> 
> In the post that I quoted, above, I understand what you're saying.
> 
> Putting myself in your wife's shoes as much as I can, I cannot imagine myself insisting on visiting my sister *this summer* in particular. Not with your marriage in the state it's in, not with you asking her to stay here. No way would I do that unless I was afraid of you or something like that. (I'm just going to assume that you are not abusing your wife and that she is not afraid of you.)
> 
> In fact, even if you were okay with me visiting my sister for the summer *this year* *I would not leave your side*. I would not want you to get used to me not being there. I would want to prove to you that I love you and want the best for you and am committed to you.
> 
> I can't understand why she would be insisting on going, if that's what's happening.


Exactly.


----------



## Blonde

Blossom Leigh said:


> Well, then she sure screwed up her gravy train didn't she.


No.

She's a permanent resident of America and her H sponsored her. The government will come after him to repay her public assistance if he has the means to do so.

Just sayin'

Responsibilities and Obligations of the Sponsor who submits an Affidavit of Support


----------



## Blossom Leigh

LosingHim said:


> So many people saying she's from a patriarchal culture, she has no opinion, she must obey, she's subservient, etc and using it as a reason she can't stand on her own two feet, she can't possibly be left to fend for herself, etc.....
> 
> Where was this background of culture when she cheated? She certainly was not obeying her husband or her religion or whatever it may be when she did that? Her culture and upbringing didn't matter then, so why does it matter so much now?


Brilliant Girl.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blonde said:


> No.
> 
> She's a permanent resident of America and her H sponsored her. The government will come after him to repay her public assistance if he has the means to do so.
> 
> Just sayin'
> 
> Responsibilities and Obligations of the Sponsor who submits an Affidavit of Support


She screwed him Blonde... literally. I believe he should consult an attorney.


----------



## Marduk

Blonde said:


> my H had this tape from his daddy
> 
> "lazy, worthless, good for nothing, reject"
> 
> he repeated it with his children
> 
> she isn't lazy, worthless, and good for nothing just because she can't speak english and has a history of dropping out of school early
> 
> just sayin'


You are not her. 
I never said she was worthless or good for nothing. 

I do think she is manipulative. Her laziness has a directionality to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

Blonde said:


> No.
> 
> She's a permanent resident of America and her H sponsored her. The government will come after him to repay her public assistance if he has the means to do so.
> 
> Just sayin'
> 
> Responsibilities and Obligations of the Sponsor who submits an Affidavit of Support


Has @huanito implied he will try and deprive her in the divorce?

If so, I missed it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> There was no ad hominem attack in there.


Except there was.

Again, you're better than this, JLD.



> And I see only deflection in your response. Why not answer my questions?


I answered each one of them. Would you like me to repeat them?



> Moderators, why were the posts from last Friday, in particular my post quoting huanito's own description of his abuse of his wife and his threatening his cousin, removed?


Good question. I hadn't noticed that.


----------



## ButtPunch

sparrow555 said:


> I am curious about the motivation of the 'posse' in trying to manipulate the OP into not divorcing her using all kinds of guilt language.


THIS!

The man wants a divorce. What's the big damn deal. He tried to reconcile and it didn't work. The reasons don't matter. 

I thought he should sit still for a while but hey that's jmo. 

Why the incessant guilting him to stay married?

Lets say a guy puts his wife in the hospital with a brutal beating. The wife tries to reconcile for five years and the husband never hits her again. She still divorces him because she lost respect for him years ago. Would the posse try and guilt her back?


----------



## Marduk

huanito said:


> I am not sure if I got my point across before speaking about culture but I guess what I am trying to say is that culture here in north America is optional. Everyone has a choice and my wife knows that. I may not be wording this very well but I will give you an example.
> 
> My wife and I have been married for almost 10 years. we married young, I was 21 and she was 18. *She came here to the united state as a young adult. We have extended family and relatives here (my cousins family) in the states but guess what, she burned all the bridges here with the family in the united states by gossiping about them with friends she made in the USA. They helped her whenever they could and she always talked behind their back. I told her on many occasion instead of chatting on the phone all the time and gossiping all the time, go to school try to learn English or get a job or do something constructive but she did not want to. She never attempted to do anything for herself.* she has pretty much cut off ties with all her immediate family aside from her parents and sister and BTW almost all of this bad blood was initiated by the sister, If it wasn't for the affair I would have guessed her sister being the reason for the failure of our marriage. Basically in short when she says I want to spent time with the family she wants to spend time with her sister.
> 
> Forget everything I mentioned the strongest point I may have are her own word. She told me when she started having anxiety issues and mental break downs and I quote *"I used to have strength and felt untouchable when I was driving you crazy with the OM*, and I used to gossip about people who had nothing but the best intentions for me but now I am paying the price, Some people pay for their sins sooner and some later. I was in the later category because now I am finally paying the price and I will from now on live my life as best as I can"
> 
> I am a man of faith too and I am glad she is repenting for her wrong doing to me and everyone else. Now is always better then never but I bring this up to show that she clearly had a choice of how to live her life a choice she clearly regrets now.


Interesting.
@anonymous Pink, @Blonde...

I struggle with how she's the innocent in all this that got caught up in something and acted out of fear and loneliness.

And I really struggle with diagnosing a learning disability as the problem.

It's quite clear what actually happened here. Unless the OP is just making it all up, of course.


----------



## jld

There was no ad hominem attack, Marduk. Your saying it does not make it so.

And you did not answer my questions:

_Do you see yourself as huanito, and your wife as his wife? Is that why you are willing now to overlook his past actions, and only focus on hers? You understand his pain, but not her fear?_


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> She may also have just been poor and without many known resources or encouragement. Kind of like now.


Did you actually read what he posted?

She refused to learn English, refused to be productive, pushed her extended family away, and got off on the power that having an affair brought to her marriage.

You are trying to distort this into some kind of Victorian novel, when it's more like a bad season of Falcon Crest.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> There was no ad hominem attack, Marduk. Your saying it does not make it so.
> 
> And you did not answer my questions:
> 
> _Do you see yourself as huanito, and your wife as his wife? Is that why you are willing now to overlook his past actions, and only focus on hers? You understand his pain, but not her fear?_


That _is_ an ad hominem attack.

You're attacking me instead of my arguement.


----------



## jld

The issue, BP, is the kids. 

At least to me.


----------



## huanito

Anon Pink said:


> huanito said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure if I got my point across before speaking about culture but I guess what I am trying to say is that culture here in north America is optional. Everyone has a choice and my wife knows that. I may not be wording this very well but I will give you an example.
> 
> 
> 
> So she married you the same year she arrived in the United States...from what country? She married at the age of 18 from, I'm assuming because you are being vague and I suspect deliberately so, her home country which is a culture that keeps to very traditional values and expectations on women? At the age of 18 became married in a country in which she doesn't speak the language? From a country that no doubt hardly recognizes the importance of early identification and intervention of children performing poorly in school? A country from which it is expected that the woman become a wife and mother and the man lead his household? A country that restricts women in order to hold their cultural values in place?
> 
> I have a theory about those countries that keep to traditional values by restricting women, even though they say women can attend whatever university they want when the truth is their home environment is where the heaviest restrictions come from. Women who have little choices in life except whom to marry and what to wear. Women who lived in a home where father ruled the roost, women served the men, and the men provided for the women are not women who have learned to resolve conflicts because women had 2 choices when it came to conflicts.
> 1. Go along with what the husband wants.
> 2. Throw unholy and irrational hissy fits in order to have some decision making power in something.
> 
> It is these women from these cultures where they never see how he right to self determination means that we do not have to behave like children in order to determine how we wish to live our lives, how we wish to spend our money, how we wish to raise our children, where we wish to live...
> 
> OP, you really need to come clean on your wife's home country and her family's cultural heritage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, an 18 year old girl being catty! Imagine that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm, if that's how you put it no wonder she gave you to proverbial finger on your generous offer! Exactly how was she to attempt to do anything for herself when she came from a culture that actively frowns upon women making their own life choices? Exactly how was she to tackle the very real impediment of learning English when she had a long history of learning failure?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see a very young women thrust into a situation, marriage, children, immigrating, isolation, lack of choices, lack of skills, who had no coping skills and made some horrendous mistakes and stupid blunders.
> 
> I see a man who lacks understanding of the plight of women in culturally oppressive, restrictive environments. I see a man who thought life was grand taking an 18 year old bride and only much later realized his bride was actually still very much a child, due to both immaturity and the cultural influence against girls development to independence. I see a man who has anger problems and a man who, frankly, doesn't deserve this woman because once she gets her feet on the ground and learns that she CAN learn, there will be no stopping her and the result will be breathtaking!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My wife may have grew up where she had less chances of an education and a SAHM was the norm but so did my sisters. I am the youngest in my family and all my sisters who hold a bachelors degree came here at an older age then my wife when she came here but they forced themselves to grasp the opportunities that was there for them. My wife's father actually called me on many occasions to talk my wife into getting an education (at the time I was still studying, I am a few credits away from my bachelor). Yet she did not want to.
> 
> My wife actually feels pity for single mothers who actually work to provide for their children. She even see that if she ever works that all her money is for her and that as the man of the house I am responsible of all the bills ect...
> 
> She even mentioned to me that if we end up divorcing she hopes to find a man like me to care for her and do whatever she wants for her.
> 
> Yes I completely understand that the tradition or culture of where someone grows up will have an effect of how they may end up wanting to live their life but all I or any of the family could do were inform her that this was the land of opportunity and you can achieve anything if you put your mind to it and you have the backing of your husband and family.
> 
> Your arguments maybe true in some culture and tradition as a whole but it is invalid in the case on so many different levels which is a reason I am not sharing because I want everyone to speak about the my case and not be biased because of a culture or tradition we may have grew up in.
> 
> In the end my wife was pushed to go to school or work ect.. not only be me but by her parents and unless you wanted me to assume a patriarchal role and beat some education into her that was not going to happen. She made her choice of being a SAHM and that she wanted to be in a relationship where the husband was the breadwinner and provider for the family.
> 
> I see too often independent women try to convince and help other women who grew up in a culturally or traditionally patriarchal societies to be self-sufficient and independent because they feel these women are victimized yet these women are laughing at these independent women having to bust their a$$ of for what their husband simply does for them for free. Not everyone individual situation is the same so it is best to ask question and do less assuming when speaking about my particular case unless we want to generalize and speak just about cultures then I can tell you that everyone could be right.
Click to expand...


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> That _is_ an ad hominem attack.
> 
> You're attacking me instead of my arguement.


I am not attacking you. I am asking you a question. And still waiting for an honest answer. But giving up on ever getting one.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Did you actually read what he posted?
> 
> She refused to learn English, refused to be productive, pushed her extended family away, and got off on the power that having an affair brought to her marriage.
> 
> You are trying to distort this into some kind of Victorian novel, when it's more like a bad season of Falcon Crest.


Being a sahm is not productive?

Got off on power?

Talk about projecting . . . I mean, distorting.


----------



## huanito

Anon Pink said:


> huanito said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure if I got my point across before speaking about culture but I guess what I am trying to say is that culture here in north America is optional. Everyone has a choice and my wife knows that. I may not be wording this very well but I will give you an example.
> 
> 
> 
> So she married you the same year she arrived in the United States...from what country? She married at the age of 18 from, I'm assuming because you are being vague and I suspect deliberately so, her home country which is a culture that keeps to very traditional values and expectations on women? At the age of 18 became married in a country in which she doesn't speak the language? From a country that no doubt hardly recognizes the importance of early identification and intervention of children performing poorly in school? A country from which it is expected that the woman become a wife and mother and the man lead his household? A country that restricts women in order to hold their cultural values in place?
> 
> I have a theory about those countries that keep to traditional values by restricting women, even though they say women can attend whatever university they want when the truth is their home environment is where the heaviest restrictions come from. Women who have little choices in life except whom to marry and what to wear. Women who lived in a home where father ruled the roost, women served the men, and the men provided for the women are not women who have learned to resolve conflicts because women had 2 choices when it came to conflicts.
> 1. Go along with what the husband wants.
> 2. Throw unholy and irrational hissy fits in order to have some decision making power in something.
> 
> It is these women from these cultures where they never see how he right to self determination means that we do not have to behave like children in order to determine how we wish to live our lives, how we wish to spend our money, how we wish to raise our children, where we wish to live...
> 
> OP, you really need to come clean on your wife's home country and her family's cultural heritage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, an 18 year old girl being catty! Imagine that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm, if that's how you put it no wonder she gave you to proverbial finger on your generous offer! Exactly how was she to attempt to do anything for herself when she came from a culture that actively frowns upon women making their own life choices? Exactly how was she to tackle the very real impediment of learning English when she had a long history of learning failure?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see a very young women thrust into a situation, marriage, children, immigrating, isolation, lack of choices, lack of skills, who had no coping skills and made some horrendous mistakes and stupid blunders.
> 
> I see a man who lacks understanding of the plight of women in culturally oppressive, restrictive environments. I see a man who thought life was grand taking an 18 year old bride and only much later realized his bride was actually still very much a child, due to both immaturity and the cultural influence against girls development to independence. I see a man who has anger problems and a man who, frankly, doesn't deserve this woman because once she gets her feet on the ground and learns that she CAN learn, there will be no stopping her and the result will be breathtaking!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OliviaG said:
> 
> 
> 
> Huanito, I have not caught up on all the posts since the last time I posted, so I don't know if I've missed anything that might influence my thinking - just wanted to say that up front.
> 
> In the post that I quoted, above, I understand what you're saying.
> 
> Putting myself in your wife's shoes as much as I can, I cannot imagine myself insisting on visiting my sister *this summer* in particular. Not with your marriage in the state it's in, not with you asking her to stay here. No way would I do that unless I was afraid of you or something like that. (I'm just going to assume that you are not abusing your wife and that she is not afraid of you.)
> 
> In fact, even if you were okay with me visiting my sister for the summer *this year* *I would not leave your side*. I would not want you to get used to me not being there. I would want to prove to you that I love you and want the best for you and am committed to you.
> 
> I can't understand why she would be insisting on going, if that's what's happening.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Olivia I asked her to even go with me and stay two weeks and come back with me and she refused she said she want to stay at least a month.
> 
> Also I regret ever saying obedient, it was a poor choice of word.
Click to expand...


----------



## Anon Pink

@marduk,

It's not one data point. High school drop outs general fall into a few categories. 
Home environment unstable/abusive/neglectful/transitory
Drug abuse/addiction
Academic failure.
Teen pregnancy used to be a big cause but not so much anymore which is both a good thing and a bad thing IMO.

Look it up I'm sure you will! 

Data point one:
Since we can assume that her home environment wasn't the cause, drug abuse addiction wasn't the cause, teen pregnancy wasn't the cause, we must investigate academic failure. 


Data point two:
Why do children who do not fit the first three categories experience school failure to the point that they drop out? Two categories:
1. Mental health/behavioral issues, and these kids generally fall into the drug abuse/addiction category due to a pattern of acting out and self medicating, but occasionally a student's mental health will be severe anxiety, major depressive with suicidal tendencies which makes the school environment a very unsafe place for the student.
2. Undiagnosed learning disabilities in early education that begat early school failure which started the foundation for low affiliation with school. So by the time the child's neurological development might have matured enough for the child to self teach work arounds (and many do because learning disabled doesn't mean stupid!) the child feel no affiliation with school and does not envision a future of furthering their education.

Number. 2 above is a very small percentage. No I have no intention of looking it up!

Data point number three:
She understands English by cannot speak it. While understanding a word usually comes before speaking a word, after 10 years of living in this country she has had oodles of exposure and time and for none of that to have stuck absolutely indicates there is a language processing disorder but when combined with point one and two...there is no question in my mind.

That'll be $2,000USD for the expert opinion!


----------



## jld

huanito said:


> Olivia I asked her to even go with me and stay two weeks and come back with me and she refused she said she want to stay at least a month.
> 
> Also I regret ever saying obedient, it was a poor choice of word.


But is it basically what you expect, right?


----------



## Anon Pink

LosingHim said:


> So many people saying she's from a patriarchal culture, she has no opinion, she must obey, she's subservient, etc and using it as a reason she can't stand on her own two feet, she can't possibly be left to fend for herself, etc.....
> 
> Where was this background of culture when she cheated? She certainly was not obeying her husband or her religion or whatever it may be when she did that? Her culture and upbringing didn't matter then, so why does it matter so much now?


If that's what you took away from my admittedly lengthy, thus unappealing, posts, you are sadly mistaken.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I am not attacking you. I am asking you a question. And still waiting for an honest answer. But giving up on ever getting one.


OK, I'll bite.

I do not see myself as him at all. I see him as a hot headed guy that married young with a selfish, entitled way too young wife. Who then took the 'nice guy' path, got cheated on, and only found out about it now.

I see them as both better off divorced.

My situation is only similar in as far as I have an entitled wife.

Does that help you?


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Being a sahm is not productive?
> 
> Got off on power?
> 
> Talk about projecting . . . I mean, distorting.


That's what the OP said. 

As you know, my wife was a SAHM for many years, which I had no problem with.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> OK, I'll bite.
> 
> I do not see myself as him at all. I see him as a hot headed guy that married young with a selfish, entitled way too young wife. Who then took the 'nice guy' path, got cheated on, and only found out about it now.
> 
> I see them as both better off divorced.
> 
> My situation is only similar in as far as I have an entitled wife.
> 
> Does that help you?


I thought reflecting on my questions could help _you._

Back to huanito . . .


----------



## Marduk

Anon Pink said:


> @marduk,
> 
> It's not one data point. High school drop outs general fall into a few categories.
> Home environment unstable/abusive/neglectful/transitory
> Drug abuse/addiction
> Academic failure.
> Teen pregnancy used to be a big cause but not so much anymore which is both a good thing and a bad thing IMO.
> 
> Look it up I'm sure you will!


I sense a foam bat coming.



> Data point one:
> Since we can assume that her home environment wasn't the cause, drug abuse addiction wasn't the cause, teen pregnancy wasn't the cause, we must investigate academic failure.


So the lack of a data point is a data point?

I'm confused.




> Data point two:
> Why do children who do not fit the first three categories experience school failure to the point that they drop out? Two categories:
> 1. Mental health/behavioral issues, and these kids generally fall into the drug abuse/addiction category due to a pattern of acting out and self medicating, but occasionally a student's mental health will be severe anxiety, major depressive with suicidal tendencies which makes the school environment a very unsafe place for the student.
> *2. Undiagnosed learning disabilities in early education that begat early school failure which started the foundation for low affiliation with school. So by the time the child's neurological development might have matured enough for the child to self teach work arounds (and many do because learning disabled doesn't mean stupid!) the child feel no affiliation with school and does not envision a future of furthering their education.
> 
> Number. 2 above is a very small percentage. No I have no intention of looking it up!*


2-3%. According to ACTA.




> *Data point number three:
> She understands English by cannot speak it. While understanding a word usually comes before speaking a word, after 10 years of living in this country she has had oodles of exposure and time and for none of that to have stuck absolutely indicates there is a language processing disorder but when combined with point one and two...there is no question in my mind.
> 
> That'll be $2,000USD for the expert opinion! *


*
Help me understand how she picked up her native language while in her country but failed to pick up English after being in the US.

Because one that would have caused a failure in the latter would have caused a failure in the former, and vice versa.

And, given their children's ages... She had plenty of time to get married, piss off her in-laws, have an extended, repetitive affair, vacation in another English speaking country, and then have children... Who presumably speak English...

And not learn the language.

All of that could be explainable by a comparitively rare disorder... Or could be explainable by what aligns with her other behaviour.

In other words, just not bothering to.

Again, OP can answer it. I just put the odds of a disorder at 97% incorrect vs perhaps 50% her not bothering to.*


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I thought reflecting on my questions could help _you._
> 
> Back to huanito . . .


Help me how?


----------



## LosingHim

Anon Pink said:


> If that's what you took away from my admittedly lengthy, thus unappealing, posts, you are sadly mistaken.


My post was not a dig at any one poster or any one opinion.

There just seems to be a hell of a lot of weight being put on her culture – she’s to be obedient, she has no power, she’s helpless, worthless, this tiny little woman who can’t speak, think or act for herself because her culture or religion dictates that she is to be this way.

Stepping outside of her marriage is not an obedient or helpless act. It is exactly the opposite. 

My point is, if she was strong enough to go against her husband, she was able bodied enough to gallivant around with OM for however long, she was not so helpless as to lay in bed with OM………why is that that now her culture/religion is dictating how obedient/helpless/downtrodden she may be? 

I’ve been in the position she may have felt she was in when she cheated. I felt ignored, neglected, second best, whatever you wanna put in there. I understand those feelings. So, selfishly, I cheated too. 

But you can’t use her culture/religion as a crutch NOW, when it surely didn’t sway her actions THEN.


----------



## Anon Pink

ButtPunch said:


> THIS!
> 
> The man wants a divorce. What's the big damn deal. He tried to reconcile and it didn't work. The reasons don't matter.
> 
> I thought he should sit still for a while but hey that's jmo.
> 
> Why the incessant guilting him to stay married?
> 
> Lets say a guy puts his wife in the hospital with a brutal beating. The wife tries to reconcile for five years and the husband never hits her again. She still divorces him because she lost respect for him years ago. Would the posse try and guilt her back?



I'm not sure I can agree that a brutal beating can equate to infidelity but having never, that I know of, been in the shoes of a betrayed....

Speaking for myself, because I generally do only speak for myself and not on behalf of any "possy" ( though I do look smashing in a cow boy hat I must admit) I would not encourage, nor support that wife to divorce her husband who for 5 years gave every indication that he will be safe and trustworthy. In fact I would encourage her to get into therapy for possible PTSD if she felt so unsafe after 5 years of a husband who is "working the program to healthy coping skills."


----------



## Marduk

ButtPunch said:


> THIS!
> 
> The man wants a divorce. What's the big damn deal. He tried to reconcile and it didn't work. The reasons don't matter.
> 
> I thought he should sit still for a while but hey that's jmo.
> 
> Why the incessant guilting him to stay married?
> 
> Lets say a guy puts his wife in the hospital with a brutal beating. The wife tries to reconcile for five years and the husband never hits her again. She still divorces him because she lost respect for him years ago. Would the posse try and guilt her back?


I don't think you can compare an affair to an assault.


----------



## Anon Pink

LosingHim said:


> My post was not a dig at any one poster or any one opinion.
> 
> There just seems to be a hell of a lot of weight being put on her culture – she’s to be obedient, she has no power, she’s helpless, worthless, this tiny little woman who can’t speak, think or act for herself because her culture or religion dictates that she is to be this way.
> 
> Stepping outside of her marriage is not an obedient or helpless act. It is exactly the opposite.
> 
> My point is, if she was strong enough to go against her husband, she was able bodied enough to gallivant around with OM for however long, she was not so helpless as to lay in bed with OM………why is that that now her culture/religion is dictating how obedient/helpless/downtrodden she may be?
> 
> I’ve been in the position she may have felt she was in when she cheated. I felt ignored, neglected, second best, whatever you wanna put in there. I understand those feelings. So, selfishly, I cheated too.
> 
> But you can’t use her culture/religion as a crutch NOW, when it surely didn’t sway her actions THEN.



Ah, okay now I get your point and where my signals got crossed.

My assertion that her culture had to be taken into consideration was to counter to demonizing characterization a that the wife was a lazy, entitled, princess, cheater cheater pumpkin eater!

I can't fathom why she cheated, why she went so far from her traditional cultural expectations. I can see how she felt trapped, isolated, lonely, and even sort of abandoned, but understanding how she felt and why she felt is not the same as excusing. They are only points to humanize her instead of demonize her.


----------



## Anon Pink

@marduk,

I must complete some tasks today that do not involve proving me right and you wrong, thus I leave TAM for today gifting you all with my fine collection of foam bats!


----------



## Marduk

Anon Pink said:


> Ah, okay now I get your point and where my signals got crossed.
> 
> My assertion that her culture had to be taken into consideration was to counter to demonizing characterization a that the wife was a lazy, entitled, princess, cheater cheater pumpkin eater!


She can be all those things and still a human being, and he can still have been an ******* and a human being.

And they could still both be good people deep down that did bad **** and brought out the worst in each other.


----------



## huanito

my relationship remind me of a song I heard a long time ago by Eminem named "KIM" although the lyrics are too violent and does not even remotely resembles our current situation I can resonate with the chorus'


----------



## LosingHim

huanito said:


> my relationship remind me of a song I heard a long time ago by Eminem named "KIM" although the lyrics are too violent and does not even remotely resembles our current situation I can resonate with the chorus'


This part?? 

"So long, *****, you did me so wrong
I don't wanna go on
Living in this world without you"


----------



## huanito

OliviaG said:


> That's disturbing.


It is. I think I am going to regret posting that because although I mentioned I only resonate with the chorus I'm sure there will be a few people who skip lines and words when reading and say I am condoning his lyrics.


----------



## turnera

This is all I needed to hear:


> Her reply was from 2011 to 2012 she didn't do me wrong at all and *I was completely in the wrong* for separating with her just because I was being paranoid


This is not the voice of a remorseful person. Remorseful people don't say "I screwed up, BUT YOU..."


----------



## huanito

LosingHim said:


> This part??
> 
> "So long, *****, you did me so wrong
> I don't wanna go on
> Living in this world without you"


yes. I hate her for what did to me yet I don't think I can be without her 
If I wasn't superstitious I would think she put a spell on me.


----------



## turnera

marduk said:


> Did you actually read what he posted?
> 
> She refused to learn English, refused to be productive, pushed her extended family away, and got off on the power that having an affair brought to her marriage.
> 
> You are trying to distort this into some kind of Victorian novel, when it's more like a bad season of Falcon Crest.


And turned into one of those people on those Housewives shows...gossip, harm, entangle, use...


----------



## ButtPunch

marduk said:


> I don't think you can compare an affair to an assault.


Your right....I would much rather have my a$$ beat than be cheated on by my wife.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> She can be all those things and still a human being, and he can still have been an ******* and a human being.
> 
> And they could still both be good people deep down that did bad **** and brought out the worst in each other.


Yes. And they could learn to bring out the best in each other.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Yes. And they could learn to bring out the best in each other.


By what path? Should he just lie down and go back to his two jobs and her lies and prolonged absences and hope?

Because hope is not a strategy.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> By what path? Should he just lie down and go back to his two jobs and her lies and prolonged absences and hope?
> 
> Because hope is not a strategy.


Blonde suggested Retrouvaille. It has helped a lot of couples.

Huanito, you can rebuild. You can both learn healthier ways of dealing with your emotions than by acting out and issuing "final decrees." 

You need to talk to and listen to each other. You have to hear her heart, and she needs to hear yours. 

Don't get caught up in accusing and blaming. Seek to understand, instead.

She would not have tried so hard for five years if she did not love you. And you want to be with her, deep down. That is your love for her speaking to you.


----------



## Marduk

huanito said:


> yes. I hate her for what did to me yet I don't think I can be without her
> If I wasn't superstitious I would think she put a spell on me.


I've been there.

My reconciliation began by letting her go. Truly, deeply, in my heart and getting ready to do so in my life.

Realizing that although I would be hurt, I would not be broken. Realizing that my children would be hurt, but they too would not be broken. Realizing that my wife, too, would move on without me. We would all still be happy, eventually, just a different kind of happy. Everyone is replaceable in a marriage.

There's an innocent part of love, especially love that begins young, that is a treasure, but a lie. A part that felt like a soul mate, felt like fate, felt like "we were meant to be..."

I'm sad that part of me is gone. It is truly dead forever. But it was necessary in order for us to be together. Or apart. 

Because it was necessary for us to grow.


----------



## LosingHim

huanito said:


> yes. I hate her for what did to me yet I don't think I can be without her
> If I wasn't superstitious I would think she put a spell on me.


I can understand that. While I was separated and living under the same roof as my husband, I resonated with a song with the chorus:

"I hate you, I love you, I hate that I love you"

I can identify with relating to song lyrics, I do it all the time. 

I am SURE that you hate her right now. I think anyone who has been cheated on can identify with that. I know that my husband hates/loves me at the same time.

Look, I'm not a proponent of divorce. I think two people should always try to work it out, outside of some extreme circumstances. Yes, cheating is an extreme circumstance. But I feel like it comes down to BOTH parties being willing to work on things, change and grow together. 

This is why I told you not to make any hasty moves right now. Step back and breathe.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> She would not have tried so hard for five years if she did not love you. And you want to be with her, deep down. That is your love for her speaking to you.


How would you ever know that that wasn't more manipulation? 

That's what I would be thinking. That's the problem with lies.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

huanito... holding her accountable is not dehumanizing her, it's actually saying... "you are more than this, get yourself straightened around and quit being destructive."

She actually dehumanized herself.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> How would you ever know that that wasn't more manipulation?
> 
> That's what I would be thinking. That's the problem with lies.


He does not have to give in to fear. He can choose faith, and trust.

I think it is helpful for kids to grow up in an intact family with parents who have addressed their issues and become healthier. I think this is possible here. Blonde's suggestion of Retrouvaille could be a good start.


----------



## LosingHim

jld said:


> He does not have to give in to fear. He can choose faith, and trust.
> 
> I think it is helpful for kids to grow up in an intact family with parents who have addressed their issues and become healthier. I think this is possible here. Blonde's suggestion of Retrouvaille could be a good start.


My impression is that Huanito would be more willing to work this out if she would give up her Canada trips.

I think there’s a LOT of speculation on what she was doing on these trips to Canada. Sure, the assumption is that she continued the affair with the OM each time she went. That’s a natural assumption. But at the same time, the contact COULD have stopped. I messed around with my OM one time and was then around him numerous times after that and nothing ever happened again. I know that’s not the rule and maybe the exception. But there is a chance that she did not continue the affair as well. 

There is push from both sides – Huanito saying you HAVE to give up these trips and Mrs. Huanito saying NO WAY. 

Personally, if this were my situation and J asked me to give up the trips, I would be willing to do so, but what I would be more likely to do is suggest a compromise. Who is to say that Mr. and Mrs. H cannot find a compromise to this situation? Mrs. H craves the family time with her sister due to having no friendships and H doesn’t trust her to go alone. 

OK, let’s work out a situation where they can BOTH be satisfied. I don’t think that’s reconciliation based solely on Mrs. H’s needs, but rather something that could give them BOTH a chance to be happy and comfortable.


----------



## huanito

marduk said:


> I've been there.
> 
> My reconciliation began by letting her go. Truly, deeply, in my heart and getting ready to do so in my life.
> 
> Realizing that although I would be hurt, I would not be broken. Realizing that my children would be hurt, but they too would not be broken. Realizing that my wife, too, would move on without me. We would all still be happy, eventually, just a different kind of happy. Everyone is replaceable in a marriage.
> 
> There's an innocent part of love, especially love that begins young, that is a treasure, but a lie. A part that felt like a soul mate, felt like fate, felt like "we were meant to be..."
> 
> I'm sad that part of me is gone. It is truly dead forever. But it was necessary in order for us to be together. Or apart.
> 
> Because it was necessary for us to grow.


Your post moved me. I feel the same way. I feel that part of me is also dead and also truly gone forever and I think to myself that if I am truly not expectant of reviving or finding that part of me ever again then I should just loose my ambitions to leave and look elsewhere for something I can never bring back into any relationship. I might as well just pick up the pieces of this relationship and move on with raising my kids.

not sure if that even makes sense


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> He does not have to give in to fear. He can choose faith, and trust.
> 
> I think it is helpful for kids to grow up in an intact family with parents who have addressed their issues and become healthier. I think this is possible here. Blonde's suggestion of Retrouvaille could be a good start.


www.affairrecovery.com is another good Christian source as well, IF he decides to make a go at this. 

Totally up to him.


----------



## Blonde

huanito said:


> My wife may have grew up where she had less chances of an education and a SAHM was the norm but so did my sisters. ...
> 
> 
> I see too often independent women try to convince and help other women who grew up in a culturally or traditionally patriarchal societies to be self-sufficient and independent because they feel these women are victimized yet these women are laughing at these independent women having to bust their a$$ of for what their husband simply does for them for free. Not everyone individual situation is the same so it is best to ask question and do less assuming when speaking about my particular case unless we want to generalize and speak just about cultures then I can tell you that everyone could be right.


I find that sentiment a bit disrespectful toward SAHM. I have a master's degree earned at age 21 and I was a SAHM for 25 years to 8 children.

Fourty hour weeks are a cake walk in comparison to the job I did as a SAHM. That is not an exaggeration!

I went back to school at age 50 for another degree and became an RN. Busting my butt on a med-surg floor for 12 hour shifts is a CAKE WALK compared to being responsible for and raising 8 children. I once calculated that I changed 40,000 diapers and laundered AND matched hundreds of thousands of socks. Some days I drove well over 100 miles taking my kids here, there, and everywhere. Every single meal involved feeding 10 people- like most people's Thanksgiving dinner.

Your W has three children ages 6,5, and 2. Her sister has eight children so I am assuming LARGE families is her family culture.

The other issue is you picked her when she was a dropout. I think it's unfair to criticize her for it now.

I really don't think you will keep your three children all alone with no wife, no family, and no support. In re-reading your posts, I see you had them alone for only TWO MONTHS last time. It is a very hard hard job. So sad that it is so unappreciated and devalued...


----------



## Blossom Leigh

huanito said:


> Your post moved me. I feel the same way. I feel that part of me is also dead and also truly gone forever and I think to myself that if I am truly not expectant of reviving or finding that part of me ever again then I should just loose my ambitions to leave and look elsewhere for something I can never bring back into any relationship. I might as well just pick up the pieces of this relationship and move on with raising my kids.
> 
> not sure if that even makes sense


We do lose innocence when going through things like this. My H and I were so tight when we met. That innocence where we were each other's very breath. We lost that "purity." And in spite of his infidelity later, we endeavor to truly love each other, take good care of each other, honor each other, hold each other accountable, we work in concert on our issues, sometimes hand in hand, sometimes in parallel, but it is VERY intentional. We also overcame abuse. We are very tight, very transparent and much healthier now than when we first met. So, it matures into a better love. IF you have two intentional partners. Its possible. And one of the things you will learn in the affairrecovery classes around other couples is that there is always a couple out there who had it worse than you and still reconciled.

One key area... our reconciliation was not based in faith in each other, but faith in God.


----------



## Blonde

huanito said:


> Your post moved me. I feel the same way. I feel that part of me is also dead and also truly gone forever and I think to myself that if I am truly not expectant of reviving or finding that part of me ever again then I should just loose my ambitions to leave and look elsewhere for something I can never bring back into any relationship. I might as well just pick up the pieces of this relationship and move on with raising my kids.
> 
> *not sure if that even makes sense*


YES, it makes total sense!


----------



## huanito

Blonde I hope you didn't take my post as in I was being disrespectful to SAHM. I was trying to argue that being a SAHM can be a choice for those who may think that she was forced or indirectly led to believe that being a SAHM was her only option because of the culture she grew up in. She always had the choice and she chose to be a SAHM. A choice I respected. Being a SAHM is very hard work which can sometimes feel unappreciated and cannot be attributed to a monetary value and I understand that. Which is why I told her that if we split up and she moves out I will be as supportive as I can even if it exceeds the legal limits of what I am liable for in order to help her become self sufficient and able to stand on her own two feet. Ultimately that is a choice for her again. As hard as it maybe to make such a drastic change in lifestyle it is still doable and she will be faced with that choice. A choice to attempt a life of independence and self-sufficiency or she can decide to stay at her sisters house and wait to marry again in the future in hopes of being a SAHM or SAHM again.


----------



## Blonde

huanito said:


> Blonde I hope you didn't take my post as in I was being disrespectful to SAHM. I was trying to argue that being a SAHM can be a choice for those who may think that she was forced or indirectly led to believe that being a SAHM was her only option because of the culture she grew up in. She always had the choice and she chose to be a SAHM. A choice I respected. Being a SAHM is very hard work which can sometimes feel unappreciated and cannot be attributed to a monetary value and I understand that. Which is why I told her that if we split up and she moves out I will be as supportive as I can even if it exceeds the legal limits of what I am liable for in order to help her become self sufficient and able to stand on her own two feet. Ultimately that is a choice for her again. As hard as it maybe to make such a drastic change in lifestyle it is still doable and she will be faced with that choice. A choice to attempt a life of independence and self-sufficiency or she can decide to stay at her sisters house and wait to marry again in the future in hopes of being a SAHM or SAHM again.


You are an honorable man. I'm really impressed with you, Huanito! You need to be part of your kids lives for sure!

And it does sound like you love your wife and she loves you. And you both love those children.

Lots of hope from me to you and Mrs Huanito!!!


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Is she:
- trying to unburden her guilt on to you?
- got to the point of trusting you again?
- getting further "inconvenienced" by your relationship together and is actually seeking a way to sabotage it?
- fully invested in the future of you both together and wants a clean slate?
- Slipping emotionally and scared of failing into the old habit/temptation and is seeking reassurance that you value her?

You will have to decide which option is actually the correct situation as you really don't want to read it wrong. (and sadly most people will reflexively _lie_ if directly asked, due to the internal vulnerability of such an important question)


----------



## Anon Pink

huanito said:


> Blonde I hope you didn't take my post as in I was being disrespectful to SAHM. I was trying to argue that being a SAHM can be a choice for those who may think that she was forced or indirectly led to believe that being a SAHM was her only option because of the culture she grew up in. She always had the choice and she chose to be a SAHM.


Being a SAHM can be choice when one has options... Tell us about your wife's options? Tell us about how she could have applied to work anywhere? Considering she didn't speak English and she didn't have her high school diploma her options were working for some no tell motel changing the sheets every hour for half minimum wage and the joys of being felt up by the fat disgusting boss everything she bent over to tuck in a new sheet!






> A choice I respected. Being a SAHM is very hard work which can sometimes feel unappreciated and cannot be attributed to a monetary value and I understand that.



No I don't think you did respect the effort and care that goes into being a SAHM. Your own words reveal that. 

Why can you not see how limited her life was? Why can you not see all the road blocks she faced living in this country and being isolated?

You spoke earlier about her being catty and gossiping and losing friendships over that. While those behaviors are certainly frowned upon in western circles the facts remain that commonly, parents have to INSTRUCT their children to NOT do that. The fact remains that those women who insist upon being b!tchy and judge mental of others are really just revealing how poorly they think of themselves that they have to put others down to build themselves up. 

Please understand I'm not seeking a reconciliation for you. But if you move forward and try out another relationship your lack of respect will once again put your interests against your wife's interests.



> Which is why I told her that if we split up and she moves out I will be as supportive as I can even if it exceeds the legal limits of what I am liable for in order to help her become self sufficient and able to stand on her own two feet. Ultimately that is a choice for her again. As hard as it maybe to make such a drastic change in lifestyle it is still doable and she will be faced with that choice. A choice to attempt a life of independence and self-sufficiency or she can decide to stay at her sisters house and wait to marry again in the future in hopes of being a SAHM or SAHM again.


While I am extremely relieved that you intend to ensure the material safety of your children, how can you continue to think of her as having a choice? Even if it wasn't for the language barrier she is STILL a drop out! No one will hire a drop out who doesn't speak the language.

So stop thinking of it as a choice for her to make but efforts into gaining skills so that she eventually HAS a choice she can make.


----------



## huanito

Anon pink I can give you an example. My aunt came here in here late 20's without speaking a word of english. She was constantly calling job agencies looking for a job only able to pronounce her name and her social security number. She ended getting a job at a warehouse working for ROSS. At her job she tried to interact with English speaking people so that she can also learn the language language. She spend much of her time on computer trying to learn English and also asked me for her assistance when she had question. She eventually learned the English language and saved some money to start her own business. She has multiple entry visas in China, dubai and now has her own store selling imported merchandise.

my wife had all the same resources and I even bought her a copy of Rosetta stone to help her learn English but she chose to surround herself with people of the same native tongue. So please stop trying to argue she had no options. I pushed my wife but she didn't have the will but my aunt had the will do something for herself and pushed people to help her.


----------



## huanito

First and foremost I would like to say that i believe my wife is truly remorseful of what she did and I don't think she will take that path again but this is only my feelings. I don't want want to get into details of why I feel this why now but it has something to do with my interactions with her now compared to years ago. I don't expect anyone to believe me because of my history of rug sweeping and lying to myself even though everything was signaling towards the truth yet I was forcing myself to believe the lie or telling myself that I just don't know for sure.i also believe my statements of accepting there was a PA was also an attempt of lying to myself and rug sweeping because the revelation of the PA still hurt me more then you can imagine.

Having said that she is also an emotional mess because of her anxiety issues and feeling depressed because of everything that happened and we are currently going through. 

I sat her down and told her that for the sake of raising our kids together under one household I have no objections of her going to canada during the summer and won't make that a stipulation of saving this marriage but for the time being we need to be alone. Giving our current circumstances we cannot live apart so we should stay living in separate bedrooms and stop having anymore interaction aside from what is necessary to raise our kids. 

She accepted that and a short while later she came sobbing to me of how she wanted me to take her to her sister. She said she was truly remorseful for what she did and asked me for her forgiveness yet she senses that I am truly not happy and that she is no longer in my heart. I continue to isolate her and under her current conditions she can't cope anymore. 

At this point I don't know if there is anything else I can do aside from taking her to her sisters house where she can get the support she feels to cope and take some time living separately. 

she wants everything to get back to how they were but the fact of the matter is I'm not sure if it can without at the very least giving each other some space. I feel like she is putting more consideration of how she is currently feeling and how to remedy her depression and not understanding what she put me through in the past and how she kept the truth hidden for so long and finally putting me through DDay #2.


----------



## Marduk

huanito said:


> First and foremost I would like to say that i believe my wife is truly remorseful of what she did and I don't think she will take that path again but this is only my feelings. I don't want want to get into details of why I feel this why now but it has something to do with my interactions with her now compared to years ago. I don't expect anyone to believe me because of my history of rug sweeping and lying to myself even though everything was signaling towards the truth yet I was forcing myself to believe the lie or telling myself that I just don't know for sure.i also believe my statements of accepting there was a PA was also an attempt of lying to myself and rug sweeping because the revelation of the PA still hurt me more then you can imagine.


Listen man, you gotta look at yourself in the mirror every day. Whatever your path to do that is up to you.



> Having said that she is also an emotional mess because of her anxiety issues and feeling depressed because of everything that happened and we are currently going through.


Let me ask you one question:

Like with the not speaking English -- what is she doing to actually improve her anxiety issues?

Because it looks very much to me like she's looking either to you or her sister to resolve that for her. Not taking the lead in her own life.



> I sat her down and told her that for the sake of raising our kids together under one household I have no objections of her going to canada during the summer and won't make that a stipulation of saving this marriage but for the time being we need to be alone. Giving our current circumstances we cannot live apart so we should stay living in separate bedrooms and stop having anymore interaction aside from what is necessary to raise our kids.


I think that's a good call. Non-commital, gives yourself both breathing room.



> She accepted that and a short while later she came sobbing to me of how she wanted me to take her to her sister. She said she was truly remorseful for what she did and asked me for her forgiveness yet she senses that I am truly not happy and that she is no longer in my heart. I continue to isolate her and under her current conditions she can't cope anymore.
> 
> At this point I don't know if there is anything else I can do aside from taking her to her sisters house where she can get the support she feels to cope and take some time living separately.


I would highly recommend that you think twice about her leaving the country in this condition with your kids.



> she wants everything to get back to how they were but the fact of the matter is I'm not sure if it can without at the very least giving each other some space. I feel like she is putting more consideration of how she is currently feeling and how to remedy her depression and not understanding what she put me through in the past and how she kept the truth hidden for so long and finally putting me through DDay #2.


OK man. Truth time.

She's forcing you to pick: either forgive everything RIGHT NOW or you're the bad guy.

Which is kind of part of the core problem with your wife.

She seems to want you to fix everything, and forgive everything.

And this is kind of the cheater's script. And usually means that they're not really over cheating.


----------



## bandit.45

huanito said:


> First and foremost I would like to say that i believe my wife is truly remorseful of what she did and I don't think she will take that path again but this is only my feelings. I don't want want to get into details of why I feel this why now but it has something to do with my interactions with her now compared to years ago. I don't expect anyone to believe me because of my history of rug sweeping and lying to myself even though everything was signaling towards the truth yet I was forcing myself to believe the lie or telling myself that I just don't know for sure.i also believe my statements of accepting there was a PA was also an attempt of lying to myself and rug sweeping because the revelation of the PA still hurt me more then you can imagine.
> 
> Having said that she is also an emotional mess because of her anxiety issues and feeling depressed because of everything that happened and we are currently going through.
> 
> I sat her down and told her that for the sake of raising our kids together under one household I have no objections of her going to canada during the summer and won't make that a stipulation of saving this marriage but for the time being we need to be alone. Giving our current circumstances we cannot live apart so we should stay living in separate bedrooms and stop having anymore interaction aside from what is necessary to raise our kids.
> 
> She accepted that and a short while later she came sobbing to me of how she wanted me to take her to her sister. She said she was truly remorseful for what she did and asked me for her forgiveness yet she senses that I am truly not happy and that she is no longer in my heart. I continue to isolate her and under her current conditions she can't cope anymore.
> 
> At this point I don't know if there is anything else I can do aside from taking her to her sisters house where she can get the support she feels to cope and take some time living separately.
> 
> she wants everything to get back to how they were but the fact of the matter is I'm not sure if it can without at the very least giving each other some space. I feel like she is putting more consideration of how she is currently feeling and how to remedy her depression and not understanding what she put me through in the past and how she kept the truth hidden for so long and finally putting me through DDay #2.


You don't want to divorce...then you do want to divorce....then you want to divorce....then you don't want to divorce...then you want to divorce....then you don't want to divorce...then you want to divorce....then you don't want to divorce...then you want to divorce....then you don't want to divorce...then you want to divorce....then you don't want to divorce...

Is this the way you face all the big decisions in your life? 

I'm just asking....


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

What, he is conflicted and is waffling? OMG, thanks for pointing it out. There has never been another man or woman, on this website, who acted this way...Oh wait.
/end sarcasm. 
He is about to end his regular way of life, even after all of the drama, it is NEVER easy to be decisive in these situations. If it was, there would NEVER be shock when we have a thread where a person says "I'm done" files and moves on. Trying to compare this to other decisions is disingenuous.


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## Anon Pink

huanito said:


> Anon pink I can give you an example. My aunt came here in here late 20's without speaking a word of english. She was constantly calling job agencies looking for a job only able to pronounce her name and her social security number. She ended getting a job at a warehouse working for ROSS. At her job she tried to interact with English speaking people so that she can also learn the language language. She spend much of her time on computer trying to learn English and also asked me for her assistance when she had question. She eventually learned the English language and saved some money to start her own business. She has multiple entry visas in China, dubai and now has her own store selling imported merchandise.
> 
> my wife had all the same resources and I even bought her a copy of Rosetta stone to help her learn English but she chose to surround herself with people of the same native tongue. So please stop trying to argue she had no options. I pushed my wife but she didn't have the will but my aunt had the will do something for herself and pushed people to help her.



Do not confuse possibility with expectation.

Remarkable achievements, such as what you describe with your Aunt, serve as examples of what might be possible, but shouldn't be confused with what IS expected otherwise you set everyone up for failure. 

I could say the same about you, right? I could point to the countless other betrayed husbands who didn't get violent and didn't end their marriage but found a way to make it work, so what's your problem for not being able to do that? 

You see how we cannot expect the remarkable but should always be prepared to encourage while understanding the individual's innate aptitude and fortitude. Some people have it in spades, and others have none.

You are determined to paint your wife as a lazy woman while I've made countless posts today attempting to sway you toward understanding her better, toward compassion.

I've never met your wife so it is within the realm of possibility that I am quite wrong and you've got her nailed. I can see my attempts to sway you toward compassion will do no good.

I honestly wish you well no matter what happens next. Unless you get violent again and then I won't wish you well!


----------



## huanito

I am not saying my wife was or is lazy. She studied for the driver license test a long time ago and after a couple of attempts she passed the test, she drives wherever she wants and can do her own day to day errands. I am just saying she made a choice not to go to school.

I have many friends here who were born in the untied states who decided not go to school because they felt school was just not for them some whom their parents are educated but they decided to not follow in their footsteps and made their own priorities of what is important in their life. 

Somewhere along the line I got the impression that some of you are stating because of her culture she was already predesposed to be a SAHM. If I understood wrong then we may not be in disagreement but if my understanding is correct then I disagree.


----------



## huanito

I also am not faulting her for not going to school and getting a job and choosing to be a SAHM. A choice that she herself doesn't regret but she does regret sometimes that she didn't put enough effort into learning the english language but even with her regret she is still not motivated enough to start now. As far as she is concerned she can communicate enough to do what she needs to do and if communication is ever abarrier she just asks me to help her and problem is solved.


----------



## huanito

To be completely honest she much rather live in canada because of all the social programs available there that is not available here in the states. Her sister has 8 children living on government subsidies making what a a degree holder makes here in the states. 

I feel like i just opened another can of worm.


----------



## huanito

I appreciate all the input. I'm going to lay off the forum for a little while. I will keep you guys posted on the final outcome.


----------



## larry.gray

> Moderators, why were the posts from last Friday, in particular my post quoting huanito's own description of his abuse of his wife and his threatening his cousin, removed?





marduk said:


> Good question. I hadn't noticed that.


The OP posted that dragging up the old posts made him cry. I suspect someone reported it, and the moderator agreed. 

FTR, it wasn't me...


----------



## Blonde

huanito,

NC is really far away from Canada! Any chance of moving closer to to border? 

No need to reply. I think a break from TAM is a* really good idea. * Wouldn't want you to get ensnared by the bitter angry misogynist club.


----------



## Marduk

sidney2718 said:


> How can a SAHM with a husband working two jobs find the time, money, and caretakers to go take an English for Foreign Speakers class---assuming that they live in a town big enough to have such a thing?
> 
> That said, there are things that bother me. Does she drive a car? If so, how did she pass the driver's exam. If she doesn't drive or has no car to drive, how can she have a chance to do anything?


It sounds to me like:
- she had time enough to gossip and piss her in laws off
- she had time enough to go away for 2 months out of the year
- she had time enough for an EA/PA
- she had the support and encouragement of her husband
- she had access to a pretty good piece of software to use on her own schedule 

And yet she didn't learn English. 

What that adds up to for me is "I couldn't be bothered."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Good luck to you Huanito, this has become an agenda driven rhetoric filled argument. I agree, take a break and update us when summer rolls around.


----------



## ButtPunch

Let me get this straight....

The OP shouldn't get a divorce because his cheater liar wife may or may not have a learning disability.

Give me a break. 

People divorce all the time. 

If he can't recover from living a lie for 5 years and wants a divorce, more power to him. 

I swear every time a male OP comes on TAM and wants to save his marriage he gets told to file and every time he wants to divorce he is advised not too.

I don't get it.

I still think the OP shouldn't do anything for some time.


----------



## eric1

Why are folks worried about her language in a thread about infidelity? She could speak only in klingon and it would not materially change what Huanito should or should not do.


----------



## Marduk

eric1 said:


> Why are folks worried about her language in a thread about infidelity? She could speak only in klingon and it would not materially change what Huanito should or should not do.


Because I think it's indicative of his wife's personality - take as much as you can get, not working very hard, and playing the victim. Which also aligns with having an affair. 

AP is working on the hypothesis that she married him as a scared little girl and made a mistake, therefore should be treated with compassion instead of blame. 

If I'm right, compassion will lead to more bad behaviour. If she's right, it won't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

eric1 said:


> Why are folks worried about her language in a thread about infidelity? She could speak only in klingon and it would not materially change what Huanito should or should not do.


jIQochbe (I agree)


----------



## Marduk

OliviaG said:


> When he treated her with compassion 5 years ago it didn't lead to more bad behaviour, so maybe that is an indication?
> 
> (I know, you're going to say that she was lying every second of every day by withholding her PA from him, and that was bad behaviour.)


I think that's a very good point and you pretty much answered for me.

The part that is really bothering me in the "she learned her lesson" scenario is that _she still blames him for her affair_ and _she insists on leaving back to Canada where the affair happened._

Because if AP is right, those two things still don't make sense.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> I think that's a very good point and you pretty much answered for me.
> 
> The part that is really bothering me in the "she learned her lesson" scenario is that _she still blames him for her affair_ and _she insists on leaving back to Canada where the affair happened._
> 
> Because if AP is right, those two things still don't make sense.


Not to mention willing to leave her kids behind to do that.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

eric1 said:


> Why are folks worried about her language in a thread about infidelity?


He was accused of keeping her from family and isolating her due to the language barrier. So, when he said "no, she chose not to learn the language and has friends who speak her native language" the forced isolation argument fell apart and he is being attacked for saying she should learn a new language.


----------



## Blonde

Blossom Leigh said:


> Not to mention willing to leave her kids behind to do that.


The kids won't be "behind". They'll wind up in Canada nearby her and I think she knows huanito well enough to know that. Huanito is not going to be able to manage alone with a full time job and three young children for long. Two months of it was a hardship. (I don't judge Huanito for this. He has had his reality check on just how demanding the role of isolated single parent. And yet again, cultural factors are at play- mother as traditional caretaker.)




> Summer 2012
> I took the kids and seperated wit her. *Two month* later I initiated the reconciliation





> and here I was *busting my ass off *raising two kids by myself during the seperation





> I don't mind if she want custody of the kids and pay child support because she never gave me any indications in the past that she is a horrible mother in fact she has been an excellent mother.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blonde said:


> The kids won't be "behind". They'll wind up in Canada nearby her and I think she knows huanito well enough to know that. Huanito is not going to be able to manage alone with a full time job and three young children for long. Two months of it was a hardship. (I don't judge Huanito for this. He has had his reality check on just how demanding the role of isolated single parent. And yet again, cultural factors are at play- mother as traditional caretaker.)


He said she considered going to Canada and giving him full custody recently. I'd have to go back and look.


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## Blossom Leigh

Her sister can't support her either. She needs to learn to stay here, stand on her own two feet and make better choices with her life for herself AND her kids.


----------



## jld

3putt said:


> lmao!!!


Why does that make you laugh?

I think Blonde's voice is very much like that of Jesus: wise and compassionate.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

In this case, rugsweeping his anger would not have served him.

Holding her accountable is the only time she started showing true recognition of what her actions have cost her.

THAT is serving them both and the kids.


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## Divinely Favored

This woman is not remorseful...he did not forbid her seeing family.....he said they could take his vacation and they would go for two weeks each summer together and she wanted none of it. She wants to go with out him so she can have fun that does not include hubby, just other guys.

I wonder how many other men shall had had while going back home those months over the years. I bet sister knew what was going on. I would blow it up

Jesus forgiveness does not prevent consequences.....just his. I bet the hubby in the Bible booted her azz out of the house. People say where was her hubby...simple....disposing of the OM s body and cleaning up the blood in his house.


----------



## farsidejunky

Blonde said:


> I did not post this earlier because I want to be sensitive to Huanito's feelings and he really does not realize what a warped culture he has stumbled upon in TAM...
> 
> If she was male, she would completely get a pass. Men, after all, should not be expected to live without sex. If a man has a WAW, go flirt with women at bars and get someone younger and hotter, the sooner the better with high fives and pats on the back all round from the TAM bros when he "get's laid"
> 
> THE ONLY time Mrs Huanito was physical with OM was *WHEN THEY WERE SEPARATED* (a separation initiated by Huanito because he was angry and suspicious about the OM)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TBH, I'm not in favor of ANYONE screwing around unless and until the divorce papers are FINAL. But that is not an ethic that I see on TAM. Separation is considered license for extramarital sex (at least for men it it)


Separated why? Because of the betrayal of an EA. So her solution is to consumate the EA to a PA, and then lie by omission about it for 5 years?

This is not defensible.

Additionally, the timing is suspect. Why now does she confess? Her OM is getting married soon. Hmm...

She has shown herself to be untrustworthy.

No, thank you.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Blossom Leigh

I am in tears over this level of cruelty. 

NO ONE deserves the emotional trauma of an affair.... NO ONE.
It obliterates reality and shreds the heart in its wake.

It is one of the worst forms of emotional and psychological abuse.

AND NO man, woman or child deserves that pain.... NO ONE.


----------



## Divinely Favored

The fact of the matter is she is not remorseful. She has refused his compromise with Canada. He told her they could go together as he would take his 2 week vacation then. She refused that flat out
She wants to be there for extended time with out him. With her transgressions...that is a big f ing red flag in my book.

She should have been greatful. I would expose to all what she has did. I would even go have a chat with cousins new fiancee and tell her what a F ing turd she is planning to marry.


----------



## sidney2718

Blossom Leigh said:


> Not to mention willing to leave her kids behind to do that.


A decision she might have made because Huanito already let her know that the children were staying with him no matter what.

Of course, what he intended to do with them has never been made clear. I thought that he too had no nearby family.


----------



## sidney2718

huanito said:


> I see some of you are throwing judgements around as if I am sending my kids away but I would like to clear a few things.
> *I am not poor and am actually doing very good for myself.*
> 
> As for me saying to give custody of the kids to parents or siblings in canada in no way a long term plan more like a short term plan while I situate myself since *I am in a big mess right now* and feel they will be in a better home now for the time being while I make some adjustments.


Does anyone else share my confusion? There have been a number of elements in this story that seem to be in contradiction with each other.


----------



## huanito

The last couple of days I tried to to just take a break and just analyze for myself how I feel about everything.

I am not sure where to exactly start and I kind of lost the will and passion to write posts because I feel like I'm not in a position of a conflicted person who is trying to make sense of everything. 

I am writing this post not to only share with you guys my current state of mind and how I came to this conclusion to share with you guys but also to try to put all my thoughts for the last couple of days into words for myself. Some information maybe new and others maybe redundant but I'm trying to put everything together for myself.

The last couple of days I had many flashbacks of how things were at the time of the affair and how things are right now.

I remember back in 2011 when I caught her sexting and I was feeling very hurt and going crazy she had little empathy for me. Something I can say she still doesn't to this day.

I remember how she was smirking and trying to hold laughter at some points especially when I lost the phone which I am convinced she managed to steal away from me while I was in turmoil yet she was feeling bad for the OM when I was texting him out of frustration and calling him names. She was telling me how he was not at fault and that it was all her fault for the texting and that he was innocent in all this. She was telling me that it was nothing more than her attempt to intentionally make me jelous so that I can give her more attention. 

Yet my love for her and inability to let her go was so strong that I was the one asking to just put everything behind us and have a fresh start. Yet she texted him again which made me furious but yet I still tried to put it behind us. I was in a mess and got suspended from work for 10 days and I took this time to take her and the kids to the beach for the whole duration to take a break and yet have a fresh start. Then I found out that they day after we got back and I went back to work she called a number 10 times before it was finally picked up and the duration of the call was an hour. With some investigation I finally found out that it was a new number of the OM. We faught and still got back together.

After that I've caught her trying to get a relative of hers who at the time was living with her sister and the time with contact to the OM to give her the number of the OM and her excuse was that there was someone calling her constantly and she wanted to see if it was him. The relative never gave her the number but we still faught because of her attempt and still got back together.

Weeks later she said through her sister she found out that he lost assistance with his car insurance from my family because of everything that was going on and he is not able to afford it so he has no option but to sell his car and buy a car with cheaper insurance. She said she felt bad because he doesn't have anyone willing to help him and it was all her fault. She asked me to call my family and ask them to help him if I wanted a fresh start and put everything behind us. I refused and was puzzled that she felt bad for him but not for me. A husband that was the sole breadwinner for the family going through so much turmoil that was affecting his job. Yet I still let it go and decided to work on the marriage.

With no more contact with the OM from there on things got settled down a little and the summer of 2012 rolled around.

I was against sending her to canada on an extended vacation but she gave me the same bs she is giving me now plus her sister having a new baby that summer and needed her help. 

I gave in to her demand and let her go. Sometime into the vacation we got into an argument if she was still contacting the OM and she blamed me for not letting go of the past and stopped talking to me and answering my calls. I lost contact with my children for the rest of the summer. At the end of the summer I left and my children were brought to my mom's house to spend time with me. I went back and forth to her sister's house for a week or so apologizing to her and pleading with her to come back with me.

She made some stipulations for me in order for her to come back to either find a way to move her to canada near her sister's house or paying her a lump some of money to her and her family. When I refused she made lies about me to her sister and family how I was not a good provider and she was suffering here in the states and my kids didn't even have the basic necessities of food. A move that was contested by me and my cousins family here who knew what a great life she was having. Not only was I a good provider to her I was sending money to her parents back home to help support them. Family and friends here were witness that she was not lacking anything especially food on the contrary she was showing up with brand new clothes and jewelry to every family gathering.

Sometime into the mess I got into a heated argument with her and her sister where the police were called. When the police showed up and her brother in law interpreting she made accusations against me that I was an abusive husband and I forcefully took the kids from her. The police told her since the kids were with me at the time they couldnt take them for me and that if she wanted to make a case she needed to come back to the states and handle things with me here. 

At that point I took the kids and left for the states the next day. I was sobbing all the way back and miserable when I came here because I wanted her back. I put the kids In day care and lived the life of a single father. Yet I was the one who initiated reconciling and in order for her to come back I paid a lump sum to her parents and her.

Yet when we came back together she tried to paint the picture to me that I victimized her and accused her of having an affair with the OM for some measly texting she did to make me jelous. She accused me for trying to shame her in front of her family and community for a disposable act that she would never commit. She told me how can I her husband even think that she would do something like that. A move I didn't buy but I just wanted to have a happy relationship.

I still stand by my words that after the summer of 2012 things got a lot better and we had a good relationship

Fast forward to now when she started having anxiety and panic attacks in which she finally admitted to the PA after some pushing for me that in order for me to forgive her she needed to be truthfull. She amitted shr had PA during the summer of 2011 and 2012 after we split up.

After what we went through the last couple of weeks and after pleading with me for a few days to let it go. She started sobbing and telling me that even though she confessed the truth to me and apologized I don't have any empathy for her because she is sick and having anxiety attacks. She is accusing me of wanting to tear the family apart over something that happened a long time ago even though we were in a good relationship for the last several years.

Even then as proof with my previous posts I was not sure if I wanted out and flip flopped to the extent I told her in order to consider working on this relationship she needed to end the trips to canada which she refused. Yet I compromised and told her we can go but we have to come back together another reconciliation attempt she refused because she is stating that she is all alone here all year and needed the extended vacation especially now that she is sick.

At one point in he last couple of weeks I mentioned how bad I felt about what they did to me and cursed him with the hopes that the OM'S marriage fails like he has been a part of making mine fail. She told me that everyone makes mistakes and I should not say that and hold it against him.

The last couple of days with all this flashback I just couldnt accept how she had little empathy for me during the whole ordeal and I gave in to all her demands all the time yet I am looking at reconciling but she was not even willing to compromise staying with me here from now on.

I came to the conclusion that I deserve better and post this with great shame. I loved her so much that I was willing to through a blind eye, rug sweep and do whatever it takes to keep the relationship.

I feel like I hidden some aspects of the pasts in order to have some posters advocate for a chance in reconciling this marriage even though I came to this board because I ignored some good valid advice that should have made me leave years ago and save me the agony that I am going through right now.

She herself told me now that she doesn't think I can live without her because of all the history between us and how I was still flip flopping about ending it and trying to consider reconciliation.

I'm don't consider myself to be angry or full of hatred right now I'm just simply very heartbroken. A heartbroken individual who is willing to write the final chapter of this relationship and trying to be hopeful that my past will not haunt me in the future by having the inability to trust and love again in the future or repeating the same thing again out of desperation to have the loving relationship that I tried so hard to have in my current one.

With that said I know I wrote this out of pure emotions and how I feel and this may have not be written in all clarity in terms how I worded everything but I don't think I will or can write anymore about the past or try to clarify anything else. At this point I need whatever little energy I have in terms of working out the best possible solution apart. A move that seems very difficult based on how things are going during a time that i feel very drained a depleted.


----------



## Kobold

OP, from your last post it sounds like you've made up your mind on the direction you will be going in from here on out. I'm glad you're finally getting some clarity so you can make plans for your future. Try your best to be civil with her as much as possible, but don't allow her to abuse your good nature ever again. In regards to reading the incoming responses on here, I'd just recommend you either let the viciousness from some here just roll off your shoulders or simply use the ignore feature on anybody who attempts to shame you into accepting her breadcrumbs as though they were a feast. You're past the point of settling for less than you deserve, sadly some people just won't be happy until every BH on Earth accepts their place as a cuckold who brought it all on himself, it is what it is. Good luck to you.


----------



## sidney2718

huanito said:


> The last couple of days I tried to to just take a break and just analyze for myself how I feel about everything.
> 
> I am not sure where to exactly start and I kind of lost the will and passion to write posts because I feel like I'm not in a position of a conflicted person who is trying to make sense of everything.
> 
> I am writing this post not to only share with you guys my current state of mind and how I came to this conclusion to share with you guys but also to try to put all my thoughts for the last couple of days into words for myself. Some information maybe new and others maybe redundant but I'm trying to put everything together for myself.
> 
> The last couple of days I had many flashbacks of how things were at the time of the affair and how things are right now.
> 
> I remember back in 2011 when I caught her sexting and I was feeling very hurt and going crazy she had little empathy for me. Something I can say she still doesn't to this day.
> 
> I remember how she was smirking and trying to hold laughter at some points especially when I lost the phone which I am convinced she managed to steal away from me while I was in turmoil yet she was feeling bad for the OM when I was texting him out of frustration and calling him names. She was telling me how he was not at fault and that it was all her fault for the texting and that he was innocent in all this. She was telling me that it was nothing more than her attempt to intentionally make me jelous so that I can give her more attention.
> 
> Yet my love for her and inability to let her go was so strong that I was the one asking to just put everything behind us and have a fresh start. Yet she texted him again which made me furious but yet I still tried to put it behind us. I was in a mess and got suspended from work for 10 days and I took this time to take her and the kids to the beach for the whole duration to take a break and yet have a fresh start. Then I found out that they day after we got back and I went back to work she called a number 10 times before it was finally picked up and the duration of the call was an hour. With some investigation I finally found out that it was a new number of the OM. We faught and still got back together.
> 
> After that I've caught her trying to get a relative of hers who at the time was living with her sister and the time with contact to the OM to give her the number of the OM and her excuse was that there was someone calling her constantly and she wanted to see if it was him. The relative never gave her the number but we still faught because of her attempt and still got back together.
> 
> Weeks later she said through her sister she found out that he lost assistance with his car insurance from my family because of everything that was going on and he is not able to afford it so he has no option but to sell his car and buy a car with cheaper insurance. She said she felt bad because he doesn't have anyone willing to help him and it was all her fault. She asked me to call my family and ask them to help him if I wanted a fresh start and put everything behind us. I refused and was puzzled that she felt bad for him but not for me. A husband that was the sole breadwinner for the family going through so much turmoil that was affecting his job. Yet I still let it go and decided to work on the marriage.
> 
> With no more contact with the OM from there on things got settled down a little and the summer of 2012 rolled around.
> 
> I was against sending her to canada on an extended vacation but she gave me the same bs she is giving me now plus her sister having a new baby that summer and needed her help.
> 
> I gave in to her demand and let her go. Sometime into the vacation we got into an argument if she was still contacting the OM and she blamed me for not letting go of the past and stopped talking to me and answering my calls. I lost contact with my children for the rest of the summer. At the end of the summer I left and my children were brought to my mom's house to spend time with me. I went back and forth to her sister's house for a week or so apologizing to her and pleading with her to come back with me.
> 
> She made some stipulations for me in order for her to come back to either find a way to move her to canada near her sister's house or paying her a lump some of money to her and her family. When I refused she made lies about me to her sister and family how I was not a good provider and she was suffering here in the states and my kids didn't even have the basic necessities of food. A move that was contested by me and my cousins family here who knew what a great life she was having. Not only was I a good provider to her I was sending money to her parents back home to help support them. Family and friends here were witness that she was not lacking anything especially food on the contrary she was showing up with brand new clothes and jewelry to every family gathering.
> 
> Sometime into the mess I got into a heated argument with her and her sister where the police were called. When the police showed up and her brother in law interpreting she made accusations against me that I was an abusive husband and I forcefully took the kids from her. The police told her since the kids were with me at the time they couldnt take them for me and that if she wanted to make a case she needed to come back to the states and handle things with me here.
> 
> At that point I took the kids and left for the states the next day. I was sobbing all the way back and miserable when I came here because I wanted her back. I put the kids In day care and lived the life of a single father. Yet I was the one who initiated reconciling and in order for her to come back I paid a lump sum to her parents and her.
> 
> Yet when we came back together she tried to paint the picture to me that I victimized her and accused her of having an affair with the OM for some measly texting she did to make me jelous. She accused me for trying to shame her in front of her family and community for a disposable act that she would never commit. She told me how can I her husband even think that she would do something like that. A move I didn't buy but I just wanted to have a happy relationship.
> 
> I still stand by my words that after the summer of 2012 things got a lot better and we had a good relationship
> 
> Fast forward to now when she started having anxiety and panic attacks in which she finally admitted to the PA after some pushing for me that in order for me to forgive her she needed to be truthfull. She amitted shr had PA during the summer of 2011 and 2012 after we split up.
> 
> After what we went through the last couple of weeks and after pleading with me for a few days to let it go. She started sobbing and telling me that even though she confessed the truth to me and apologized I don't have any empathy for her because she is sick and having anxiety attacks. She is accusing me of wanting to tear the family apart over something that happened a long time ago even though we were in a good relationship for the last several years.
> 
> Even then as proof with my previous posts I was not sure if I wanted out and flip flopped to the extent I told her in order to consider working on this relationship she needed to end the trips to canada which she refused. Yet I compromised and told her we can go but we have to come back together another reconciliation attempt she refused because she is stating that she is all alone here all year and needed the extended vacation especially now that she is sick.
> 
> At one point in he last couple of weeks I mentioned how bad I felt about what they did to me and cursed him with the hopes that the OM'S marriage fails like he has been a part of making mine fail. She told me that everyone makes mistakes and I should not say that and hold it against him.
> 
> The last couple of days with all this flashback I just couldnt accept how she had little empathy for me during the whole ordeal and I gave in to all her demands all the time yet I am looking at reconciling but she was not even willing to compromise staying with me here from now on.
> 
> I came to the conclusion that I deserve better and post this with great shame. I loved her so much that I was willing to through a blind eye, rug sweep and do whatever it takes to keep the relationship.
> 
> I feel like I hidden some aspects of the pasts in order to have some posters advocate for a chance in reconciling this marriage even though I came to this board because I ignored some good valid advice that should have made me leave years ago and save me the agony that I am going through right now.
> 
> She herself told me now that she doesn't think I can live without her because of all the history between us and how I was still flip flopping about ending it and trying to consider reconciliation.
> 
> I'm don't consider myself to be angry or full of hatred right now I'm just simply very heartbroken. A heartbroken individual who is willing to write the final chapter of this relationship and trying to be hopeful that my past will not haunt me in the future by having the inability to trust and love again in the future or repeating the same thing again out of desperation to have the loving relationship that I tried so hard to have in my current one.
> 
> With that said I know I wrote this out of pure emotions and how I feel and this may have not be written in all clarity in terms how I worded everything but I don't think I will or can write anymore about the past or try to clarify anything else. At this point I need whatever little energy I have in terms of working out the best possible solution apart. A move that seems very difficult based on how things are going during a time that i feel very drained a depleted.


I see that the image of the perfect mother and the good wife is now gone. I'm sorry about that. I'm going silent.


----------



## just got it 55

huanito Divorce is not punishment for your wife or a reward for you

That will swing both ways

It just needs to happen for both of you to learn heal and grow.

I rarely take a position supporting D

55


----------



## Dyokemm

In his last post, H just confirmed another fact that blows the excuse of 'they were on a separation' for the PA out of the water.

WW confirmed that the PA happened in the summer of 2011 and then AGAIN in the summer of 2012 (separation time)

So it was an EA/PA for the ENTIRE time.

Also, H has said that she insisted and he allowed continued summer vacations during the whole 5 years of R since the 2012 debacle.

Since I would almost certainly suspect that WW's sister is toxic in this situation and knew about the ENTIRE extent of the A since it first started, I would be a little suspicious of the 'vacations' since R began in 2012 now too.

At first, I was sort of discounting the posts from others about the timing of the PA confession and POSOM's upcoming M....but now I'm not so sure.

Apparently, she was using these summer breaks as A time for awhile, not just the separation episode.

She knows people who have POSOM's contact info....sister is toxic and at least allows, if not encourages, the A.

Given WW's propensity to lie....I would now seriously suspect that the A never ended....she continued it on her 'vacations'.

And there is a connection between the 'sudden' confession and the fact that her POSOM is moving on with another woman.

This may not have happened.....

but given that WW has confessed it was NOT just the one summer of the separation, the fact that she continued to spend summers at toxic sisters, and the 'why now?' nature of her confession....

well I know I would have my serious doubts now that the A EVER stopped.


----------



## Dyokemm

" She amitted shr had PA during the summer of 2011 and 2012 after we split up."

Here's the part I'm talking about, in case someone missed it.

I almost did, then did a double take.


----------



## Mr Blunt

Huanito
I am glad that you took a break from TAM as you were about to explode. If you will get better by staying off Tam then more power to you. If you decide to come back and read TAM I would like to make a few comments regarding you and your wife.

You have had several hundred posts that range from divorcing your wife and starting over with a life without her, to you being encouraged to work with her for a possible R. In other words it seems that most of your attention is on you and your wife. Here is what I am thinking

I know that you and your wife are both in a whole lot of pain and I do not want to be insensitive. However, *you and your wife are adults and your number one priority is your children*. I want to encourage you to put your children first even if you have to put aside your interest in your own pain and dealing with your wife. I know that is asking a lot from you but someone has to look out for the children. If you are about to explode then take care of yourself so that you can help your children. However, if you are not going to explode then get your mind off your wife and direct your activities and thoughts to your children. 

Your wife seems to be more interested in her sister and going to Canada for more than 2 weeks, than you, the marriage, and the custody of her children. Perhaps your wife is so weak from the pain that she is acting irrationally but regardless the children are priority. I know that you have stated that your wife is truly remorseful and has demonstrated that she can be a very good wife and mother. *The bottom line is that right now you have to choose between you, your wife, and your children.* If you are able to help your children and still work on the other issues with you and your wife then go for it! Just do not take away from your helping your children as they are innocent and too small to protect themselves. *Remember, your children will always be your children but your wife may not always be your wife.*

I know that what I am suggesting is very personal and you can tell me to take a long walk on a short pier but you seem to not be able to get much progress accomplished with your marriage and wife. *You cannot make your wife do what you want her to do but you can have a very big impact on your children*


----------



## sparrow555

@huanito , would anything change if you find out that she was continuing the affairs during the Canada trips ? Because i think it is probably what happened.

her still defending the OM even now tell you enough about the situation and he mindset. I am not sure about the length of the marriage but she can horribly mess your finances if she actually realizes what she can do to you. Just like how she made the abuse claims, she can put you in a lot of trouble from the alimony and child support angle


----------



## sparrow555

If they are from a conservative community, maybe telling OM's fiancee about him might not be a bad thing.


----------



## just got it 55

Dyokemm said:


> In his last post, H just confirmed another fact that blows the excuse of 'they were on a separation' for the PA out of the water.
> 
> WW confirmed that the PA happened in the summer of 2011 and then AGAIN in the summer of 2012 (separation time)
> 
> So it was an EA/PA for the ENTIRE time.
> 
> Also, H has said that she insisted and he allowed continued summer vacations during the whole 5 years of R since the 2012 debacle.
> 
> Since I would almost certainly suspect that WW's sister is toxic in this situation and knew about the ENTIRE extent of the A since it first started, I would be a little suspicious of the 'vacations' since R began in 2012 now too.
> 
> At first, I was sort of discounting the posts from others about the timing of the PA confession and POSOM's upcoming M....but now I'm not so sure.
> 
> Apparently, she was using these summer breaks as A time for awhile, not just the separation episode.
> 
> She knows people who have POSOM's contact info....sister is toxic and at least allows, if not encourages, the A.
> 
> Given WW's propensity to lie....I would now seriously suspect that the A never ended....she continued it on her 'vacations'.
> 
> And there is a connection between the 'sudden' confession and the fact that her POSOM is moving on with another woman.
> 
> This may not have happened.....
> 
> but given that WW has confessed it was NOT just the one summer of the separation, the fact that she continued to spend summers at toxic sisters, and the 'why now?' nature of her confession....
> 
> well I know I would have my serious doubts now that the A EVER stopped.


A very likely scenario

Dyokemm

55


----------



## Dyokemm

If the A has indeed been continued on 'summer vacations', it also gives a new perspective on why WW is so insistent on getting up to Canada this summer.....even at the cost of a chance at R.

She wants one more chance to see OM.

Why?

Maybe to try to convince him to not dump her, and to continue the A.....maybe to say, H and I are probably divorcing, do you want to be with me....maybe for one last time together before he gets hitched.

Maybe all of these together.

But that would certainly make her refusal more understandable from a logic POV.

Posters on both sides of the recent blow up have posted that they could not understand why she would have insisted on Canada this summer when it would cost her a chance at R.

It was definitely confusing.

But if the A has really been continuing the whole time, her desperation to go this summer no matter what makes more sense.....she wants to try to see POSOM again before he gets M.


----------



## Blonde

huanito said:


> The last couple of days I tried to to just take a break and just analyze for myself how I feel about everything.
> 
> I am not sure where to exactly start and I kind of lost the will and passion to write posts because I feel like I'm not in a position of a conflicted person who is trying to make sense of everything.
> 
> I am writing this post not to only share with you guys my current state of mind and how I came to this conclusion to share with you guys but also to try to put all my thoughts for the last couple of days into words for myself. Some information maybe new and others maybe redundant but I'm trying to put everything together for myself.
> 
> The last couple of days I had many flashbacks of how things were at the time of the affair and how things are right now.
> 
> I remember back in 2011 when I caught her sexting and I was feeling very hurt and going crazy she had little empathy for me. Something I can say she still doesn't to this day.
> 
> I remember how she was smirking and trying to hold laughter at some points especially when I lost the phone which I am convinced she managed to steal away from me while I was in turmoil yet she was feeling bad for the OM when I was texting him out of frustration and calling him names. She was telling me how he was not at fault and that it was all her fault for the texting and that he was innocent in all this. She was telling me that it was nothing more than her attempt to intentionally make me jelous so that I can give her more attention.
> 
> Yet my love for her and inability to let her go was so strong that I was the one asking to just put everything behind us and have a fresh start. Yet she texted him again which made me furious but yet I still tried to put it behind us. I was in a mess and got suspended from work for 10 days and I took this time to take her and the kids to the beach for the whole duration to take a break and yet have a fresh start. Then I found out that they day after we got back and I went back to work she called a number 10 times before it was finally picked up and the duration of the call was an hour. With some investigation I finally found out that it was a new number of the OM. We faught and still got back together.
> 
> After that I've caught her trying to get a relative of hers who at the time was living with her sister and the time with contact to the OM to give her the number of the OM and her excuse was that there was someone calling her constantly and she wanted to see if it was him. The relative never gave her the number but we still faught because of her attempt and still got back together.
> 
> Weeks later she said through her sister she found out that he lost assistance with his car insurance from my family because of everything that was going on and he is not able to afford it so he has no option but to sell his car and buy a car with cheaper insurance. She said she felt bad because he doesn't have anyone willing to help him and it was all her fault. She asked me to call my family and ask them to help him if I wanted a fresh start and put everything behind us. I refused and was puzzled that she felt bad for him but not for me. A husband that was the sole breadwinner for the family going through so much turmoil that was affecting his job. Yet I still let it go and decided to work on the marriage.
> 
> With no more contact with the OM from there on things got settled down a little and the summer of 2012 rolled around.
> 
> I was against sending her to canada on an extended vacation but she gave me the same bs she is giving me now plus her sister having a new baby that summer and needed her help.
> 
> I gave in to her demand and let her go. Sometime into the vacation we got into an argument if she was still contacting the OM and she blamed me for not letting go of the past and stopped talking to me and answering my calls. I lost contact with my children for the rest of the summer. At the end of the summer I left and my children were brought to my mom's house to spend time with me. I went back and forth to her sister's house for a week or so apologizing to her and pleading with her to come back with me.
> 
> She made some stipulations for me in order for her to come back to either find a way to move her to canada near her sister's house or paying her a lump some of money to her and her family. When I refused she made lies about me to her sister and family how I was not a good provider and she was suffering here in the states and my kids didn't even have the basic necessities of food. A move that was contested by me and my cousins family here who knew what a great life she was having. Not only was I a good provider to her I was sending money to her parents back home to help support them. Family and friends here were witness that she was not lacking anything especially food on the contrary she was showing up with brand new clothes and jewelry to every family gathering.
> 
> Sometime into the mess I got into a heated argument with her and her sister where the police were called. When the police showed up and her brother in law interpreting she made accusations against me that I was an abusive husband and I forcefully took the kids from her. The police told her since the kids were with me at the time they couldnt take them for me and that if she wanted to make a case she needed to come back to the states and handle things with me here.
> 
> At that point I took the kids and left for the states the next day. I was sobbing all the way back and miserable when I came here because I wanted her back. I put the kids In day care and lived the life of a single father. Yet I was the one who initiated reconciling and in order for her to come back I paid a lump sum to her parents and her.
> 
> Yet when we came back together she tried to paint the picture to me that I victimized her and accused her of having an affair with the OM for some measly texting she did to make me jelous. She accused me for trying to shame her in front of her family and community for a disposable act that she would never commit. She told me how can I her husband even think that she would do something like that. A move I didn't buy but I just wanted to have a happy relationship.


_^^so, the above is flashback about how she behaved and how you felt in 2011 and 2012. When someone is in the middle of an infatuation with someone else, it is sometimes called the "affair fog" and the person is in a really selfish mode and also they think the grass is greener with their AP. Does that make sense?_

_THAT was THEN_




> _THIS is NOW>>_
> *I still stand by my words that after the summer of 2012 things got a lot better and we had a good relationship*


_

It is 2016, so you have had a good relationship now for nearly 4 years. You mentioned in an earlier post that you did "harsh surveillance" for about two years and your W was above reproach. You also mentioned that the OM moved by 2013 to another province, so she never had any contact with him since that summer of 2012 when you were separated, correct?_



> Fast forward to now when she started having anxiety and panic attacks in which she finally admitted to the PA after some pushing for me that in order for me to forgive her she needed to be truthfull. She amitted shr had PA during the summer of 2011 and 2012 after we split up.
> 
> After what we went through the last couple of weeks and after pleading with me for a few days to let it go. She started sobbing and telling me that even though she confessed the truth to me and apologized I don't have any empathy for her because she is sick and having anxiety attacks. *She is accusing me of wanting to tear the family apart over something that happened a long time ago even though we were in a good relationship for the last several years.*


_Do you understand how it might feel that way for her? You promised her you could forgive her. You pushed her to tell you the whole truth. So she told you and then the whole thing spiraled completely over a cliff to the point of you and she and your children being split between two countries 13 hours apart._



> Even then as proof with my previous posts I was not sure if I wanted out and flip flopped to the extent I told her in order to consider working on this relationship she needed to end the trips to canada which she refused. Yet I compromised and told her we can go but we have to come back together another reconciliation attempt she refused because she is stating that she is all alone here all year and needed the extended vacation especially now that she is sick.
> 
> At one point in he last couple of weeks I mentioned how bad I felt about what they did to me and cursed him with the hopes that the OM'S marriage fails like he has been a part of making mine fail. She told me that everyone makes mistakes and I should not say that and hold it against him.
> 
> The last couple of days with all this flashback I just couldnt accept how she had little empathy for me during the whole ordeal and I gave in to all her demands all the time yet I am looking at reconciling but she was not even willing to compromise staying with me here from now on.


_You told her you would forgive her but you had to know the truth. She took you at your word. Then you were unable to forgive like you thought you would, got very angry and upset (which I understand- believe me, I've been there with the flashbacks and confusion and devastation and broken heart) To YOU it's new and a fresh wound. To her, she has been living out her penitence for 4.5 years now, yet you want her to choose between you and seeing her beloved sister. Could it be that she can't believe you will ever forgive her and that is scary? Maybe she feels safer and more secure in the love of her sister._



> I came to the conclusion that I deserve better and post this with great shame. I loved her so much that I was willing to through a blind eye, rug sweep and do whatever it takes to keep the relationship.
> 
> I feel like I hidden some aspects of the pasts in order to have some posters advocate for a chance in reconciling this marriage even though I came to this board because I ignored some good valid advice that should have made me leave years ago and save me the agony that I am going through right now.
> 
> She herself told me now that she doesn't think I can live without her because of all the history between us and how I was still flip flopping about ending it and trying to consider reconciliation.
> 
> I'm don't consider myself to be angry or full of hatred right now I'm just simply very heartbroken. A heartbroken individual who is willing to write the final chapter of this relationship and trying to be hopeful that my past will not haunt me in the future by having the inability to trust and love again in the future or repeating the same thing again out of desperation to have the loving relationship that I tried so hard to have in my current one.
> 
> With that said I know I wrote this out of pure emotions and how I feel and this may have not be written in all clarity in terms how I worded everything but I don't think I will or can write anymore about the past or try to clarify anything else. At this point I need whatever little energy I have in terms of working out the best possible solution apart. A move that seems very difficult based on how things are going during a time that i feel very drained a depleted


_It hurts very badly. Unbelievably painful.

You and she could use a break from each other to think about it.

A real life person- a counselor, priest, pastor.. might be able to help you sort through your emotions and decisions._


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## bfree

I'd just like to point this out to people in case it's not obvious. Forgiving someone doesn't mean you stay married to them. Sometimes the truth of a betrayal is just too much to continue the marriage. And before anyone jumps up and says that's why she shouldn't have told the truth let me say that it is my firm belief that without truth as your foundation no successful marriage can be built. In the past I have not been a good person. But my wife knows every little detail of what I've done. I want her to know what I'm truly capable of so that her picture of me is based on reality and not some idealized viewpoint. In the OP's case even though the marriage was better I can see from his posts that his trust level was still very much shaken. He says he figured that his wife's affair had gone physical but it's obvious to me that he never really dealt with it. This truth would have come out eventually one way or another imo. And when it did the marriage would have ended. I've seen that scenario play out many times here on TAM and elsewhere. Some people just cannot get past an affair. They shouldn't be criticized for it any more than someone not being able to get past physical abuse, mental abuse or any other kind of trauma. The OP is well writing his rights to end this marriage. Given the circumstances it's best for all concerned. At this point he should concentrate on navigating the treacherous waters of divorce and we should all support and advise him in that. The debate is over folks. Let's help the OP.


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## manfromlamancha

Huanito, your wife has behaved abominably and never really faced any real consequences for her actions. You have been more than understanding and forgiving and she has been remorseless and deceitful.

However, there is one underlying reason for splitting up with her and this is the fact that she loves the POSOM more than you (always has and always will). You are her second choice and only because you can provide more and you have kids with her and don't want to break up the marriage.

All things being equal there is no doubt in my mind that she would be with him today.

And that is the reason you should drop her - SHE DOESNT LOVE YOU LIKE SHE LOVES HIM!

P.S. I am really curious about your and her ethnic origins - would you care to share ?


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## Evinrude58

I agree that after reading all this, I can see why he wants a divorce. I'm still not understanding the lump sum payment to her relatives that she coerced OP into paying.
There's no doubt in my mind why she wanted the long "vacations".

I think this woman is just a toxic black cloud hanging over his life and he finally wants out from under it.

Good luck OP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

@huanito you are absolutely right. You deserve a woman who does not possess a long standing history of emotional and psychological abuse towards you. I believe you will find your wife in the pages of this thread... http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/319418-abuse-thread.html 

I recommend you get educated on abuse so that you no longer accept it as ok going forward. I also have many books listed in my signature link below. And you will probably find the website www.outofthefog.net very helpful.


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## ButtPunch

huanito said:


> The last couple of days I tried to to just take a break and just analyze for myself how I feel about everything.
> 
> I am not sure where to exactly start and I kind of lost the will and passion to write posts because I feel like I'm not in a position of a conflicted person who is trying to make sense of everything.
> 
> I am writing this post not to only share with you guys my current state of mind and how I came to this conclusion to share with you guys but also to try to put all my thoughts for the last couple of days into words for myself. Some information maybe new and others maybe redundant but I'm trying to put everything together for myself.
> 
> The last couple of days I had many flashbacks of how things were at the time of the affair and how things are right now.
> 
> I remember back in 2011 when I caught her sexting and I was feeling very hurt and going crazy she had little empathy for me. Something I can say she still doesn't to this day.
> 
> I remember how she was smirking and trying to hold laughter at some points especially when I lost the phone which I am convinced she managed to steal away from me while I was in turmoil yet she was feeling bad for the OM when I was texting him out of frustration and calling him names. She was telling me how he was not at fault and that it was all her fault for the texting and that he was innocent in all this. She was telling me that it was nothing more than her attempt to intentionally make me jelous so that I can give her more attention.
> 
> Yet my love for her and inability to let her go was so strong that I was the one asking to just put everything behind us and have a fresh start. Yet she texted him again which made me furious but yet I still tried to put it behind us. I was in a mess and got suspended from work for 10 days and I took this time to take her and the kids to the beach for the whole duration to take a break and yet have a fresh start. Then I found out that they day after we got back and I went back to work she called a number 10 times before it was finally picked up and the duration of the call was an hour. With some investigation I finally found out that it was a new number of the OM. We faught and still got back together.
> 
> After that I've caught her trying to get a relative of hers who at the time was living with her sister and the time with contact to the OM to give her the number of the OM and her excuse was that there was someone calling her constantly and she wanted to see if it was him. The relative never gave her the number but we still faught because of her attempt and still got back together.
> 
> Weeks later she said through her sister she found out that he lost assistance with his car insurance from my family because of everything that was going on and he is not able to afford it so he has no option but to sell his car and buy a car with cheaper insurance. She said she felt bad because he doesn't have anyone willing to help him and it was all her fault. She asked me to call my family and ask them to help him if I wanted a fresh start and put everything behind us. I refused and was puzzled that she felt bad for him but not for me. A husband that was the sole breadwinner for the family going through so much turmoil that was affecting his job. Yet I still let it go and decided to work on the marriage.
> 
> With no more contact with the OM from there on things got settled down a little and the summer of 2012 rolled around.
> 
> I was against sending her to canada on an extended vacation but she gave me the same bs she is giving me now plus her sister having a new baby that summer and needed her help.
> 
> I gave in to her demand and let her go. Sometime into the vacation we got into an argument if she was still contacting the OM and she blamed me for not letting go of the past and stopped talking to me and answering my calls. I lost contact with my children for the rest of the summer. At the end of the summer I left and my children were brought to my mom's house to spend time with me. I went back and forth to her sister's house for a week or so apologizing to her and pleading with her to come back with me.
> 
> She made some stipulations for me in order for her to come back to either find a way to move her to canada near her sister's house or paying her a lump some of money to her and her family. When I refused she made lies about me to her sister and family how I was not a good provider and she was suffering here in the states and my kids didn't even have the basic necessities of food. A move that was contested by me and my cousins family here who knew what a great life she was having. Not only was I a good provider to her I was sending money to her parents back home to help support them. Family and friends here were witness that she was not lacking anything especially food on the contrary she was showing up with brand new clothes and jewelry to every family gathering.
> 
> Sometime into the mess I got into a heated argument with her and her sister where the police were called. When the police showed up and her brother in law interpreting she made accusations against me that I was an abusive husband and I forcefully took the kids from her. The police told her since the kids were with me at the time they couldnt take them for me and that if she wanted to make a case she needed to come back to the states and handle things with me here.
> 
> At that point I took the kids and left for the states the next day. I was sobbing all the way back and miserable when I came here because I wanted her back. I put the kids In day care and lived the life of a single father. Yet I was the one who initiated reconciling and in order for her to come back I paid a lump sum to her parents and her.
> 
> Yet when we came back together she tried to paint the picture to me that I victimized her and accused her of having an affair with the OM for some measly texting she did to make me jelous. She accused me for trying to shame her in front of her family and community for a disposable act that she would never commit. She told me how can I her husband even think that she would do something like that. A move I didn't buy but I just wanted to have a happy relationship.
> 
> I still stand by my words that after the summer of 2012 things got a lot better and we had a good relationship
> 
> Fast forward to now when she started having anxiety and panic attacks in which she finally admitted to the PA after some pushing for me that in order for me to forgive her she needed to be truthfull. She amitted shr had PA during the summer of 2011 and 2012 after we split up.
> 
> After what we went through the last couple of weeks and after pleading with me for a few days to let it go. She started sobbing and telling me that even though she confessed the truth to me and apologized I don't have any empathy for her because she is sick and having anxiety attacks. She is accusing me of wanting to tear the family apart over something that happened a long time ago even though we were in a good relationship for the last several years.
> 
> Even then as proof with my previous posts I was not sure if I wanted out and flip flopped to the extent I told her in order to consider working on this relationship she needed to end the trips to canada which she refused. Yet I compromised and told her we can go but we have to come back together another reconciliation attempt she refused because she is stating that she is all alone here all year and needed the extended vacation especially now that she is sick.
> 
> At one point in he last couple of weeks I mentioned how bad I felt about what they did to me and cursed him with the hopes that the OM'S marriage fails like he has been a part of making mine fail. She told me that everyone makes mistakes and I should not say that and hold it against him.
> 
> The last couple of days with all this flashback I just couldnt accept how she had little empathy for me during the whole ordeal and I gave in to all her demands all the time yet I am looking at reconciling but she was not even willing to compromise staying with me here from now on.
> 
> I came to the conclusion that I deserve better and post this with great shame. I loved her so much that I was willing to through a blind eye, rug sweep and do whatever it takes to keep the relationship.
> 
> I feel like I hidden some aspects of the pasts in order to have some posters advocate for a chance in reconciling this marriage even though I came to this board because I ignored some good valid advice that should have made me leave years ago and save me the agony that I am going through right now.
> 
> She herself told me now that she doesn't think I can live without her because of all the history between us and how I was still flip flopping about ending it and trying to consider reconciliation.
> 
> I'm don't consider myself to be angry or full of hatred right now I'm just simply very heartbroken. A heartbroken individual who is willing to write the final chapter of this relationship and trying to be hopeful that my past will not haunt me in the future by having the inability to trust and love again in the future or repeating the same thing again out of desperation to have the loving relationship that I tried so hard to have in my current one.
> 
> With that said I know I wrote this out of pure emotions and how I feel and this may have not be written in all clarity in terms how I worded everything but I don't think I will or can write anymore about the past or try to clarify anything else. At this point I need whatever little energy I have in terms of working out the best possible solution apart. A move that seems very difficult based on how things are going during a time that i feel very drained a depleted.


Well....I'm off the fence with this one.

Divorce this woman and get some therapy for your codependency.

Your wife doesn't love you and never will.


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## bfree

Blonde said:


> .
> I stayed with him for more than 5 years afterwards (children complicate things). If he had behaved with penitence and character growth instead of continued and increasing levels of betrayal, we would still be together.
> 
> Most of you don't seem to "get" that Huanito will not be seeing his children much if they split. They will be in a different country 13 hours away.
> 
> "He'll get custody" you think. He works FULL TIME and has children ages 2, 5, and 6. He had sole custody of them for two months once and it was HARD, he busted his butt. With children that age, there are no breaks EVER. They need 24/7 supervision.
> 
> (Contrary to TAM urban legend, Huanito did not have custody of them every summer for two months while his wife went to visit her lover in Canada. The lover moved to a different province by 2013 and the wife took the children with her to visit her family in Canada for two months every summer.)
> 
> In the end, I don't think he'll pursue f/t custody (nor do I fault him for that). The biggest complicating factor here is that if they split they will be in two separated countries 13 hours apart. If they were in the same city, it would be a no brainer.
> 
> If he can't forgive her (which takes a process, I would expect him to still be reeling with pain at this point) then they *SHOULD* divorce as much for her benefit as his. It's no marriage to live with constant suspicion and unresolved anger.
> 
> But it is not a "win" for him. It's a lose-lose


Divorce is always a losing proposition for all concerned. But in some cases, like yours and I believe the OP's, it is necessary.


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## Blossom Leigh

She is "just now" beginning to show a more authentic form of remorse. Her manipulation is so extensive and long standing that its coming a bit too late for huanito. He would have a VERY tough road ahead of him to reconcile with her starting from this point forward knowing he has a five year failed reconciliation haunting him in a second attempt. Sometimes it is wiser to cut your losses and focus on your own healing for yourself and your kids.


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## Marduk

Blonde said:


> But I see remorse and character growth on her part.
> 
> My H would not EVER have submitted to two years of "extreme surveillance" where he would wear a GPS, have all his phone calls recorded, cut off everyone in his life, and not ever be out of the house without me. Not. Ever. (Much too humiliating an interruption when getting ego stroked while flirting at bar!)
> 
> To me, it speaks volumes about her desire to make amends and prove herself faithful that she submitted to this:


All none and void with the following:

#1 she still blames him for the affair (no remorse)
#2 she refuses not to be in Canada alone for 2 months (where the affair happened and likely continues to this day)
#3 she still shows a total lack of empathy

Her behaviour may be better. But there's zero remorse there.


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## bandit.45

marduk said:


> All none and void with the following:
> 
> #1 she still blames him for the affair (no remorse)
> #2 she refuses not to be in Canada alone for 2 months (where the affair happened and likely continues to this day)
> #3 she still shows a total lack of empathy
> 
> Her behaviour may be better. But there's zero remorse there.


I agree. The fact that her very first instinct is to run back to Canada, instead of staying close to Huanito and her kids, tells me that she doesn't give a rat's ass about him or the marriage. A penitent wayward would be sticking close, and moving heaven and earth to save the marriage.


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## Amplexor

I have spent the better part of an hour cleaning up this train wreck. I have pruned this thread back to Tuesday of this week and am sure I could take it further but lack the time. I'm sure I deleted posts that were not in violation and too forgiving on others. 

Thread Jacking and badgering are just a few of the violations in the thread. I have not tagged anyone's account but certainly could have. Further violations will have consequences. If you wish to further discuss the off-topics in this thread, please open a new thread in General and give the OP the attention he deserves. Please keep your posts directed to the OP or if conversing with another member, at least directing your points towards *him* and *his* situation. The thread is now unlocked. Thanks.


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## Blonde

marduk said:


> All none and void with the following:
> 
> #1 she still blames him for the affair (no remorse)


I wouldn't call it "blame". She was "explaining". He separated from her. Separation is license, right? The M was "over" when it went PA. She has had nothing to do with OM since their reconciliation.

Not saying I agree with that view. I wouldn't take up with anyone unless and until I am officially D. But it is a common view on TAM that marital separation is license to have extramarital sexual liaisons.



> #2 she refuses not to be in Canada alone for 2 months (where the affair happened *and likely continues to this day*)


Nope. The OM MOVED to a different province by 2013, so she has not seen him since she and Huanito reconciled.



> I find out she slept with him 2012 without details of when and not sure if she slept with him in 2011 and the other years but 2013 and forward he moved to a different province.
> 
> 2016 he is getting married.



Huanito proved to his satisfaction through "extreme surveillance" that she is not misbehaving.



> How I know it's not happening anymore because I put her on extreme surveillance for the longest time the last couple of years. I had her phone record. Recorded them for a while in case I may need to refer back to it for any suspecious phone calls and also had GPS on her (I didn't go out the way to get the GPS but the vehicle has on star with gps that I have access to and for the past couple of years she didn't go anywhere really unless it was with the me and the kids which I didn't force her to but it was out of her own will to cut off everybody except her immediate family.





> #3 she still shows a total lack of empathy


I think she's in a world of pain. Her entire life has just crumbled before her eyes. She was already having anxiety and panic attacks BEFORE this past week happened. She's a very religious woman and superstitious and she thought that her conscience would be relieved if she told Huanito the full extent of what happened in 2012 *while they were separated*.

She was so wracked with guilt and shame that she had to tell him. He can't forgive her, her marriage is over, her family is broken, she can't forgive herself. Huanito doesn't want her anymore. She's a reject and he "deserves better". Her sister is the only soft place in the world she has to land.


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## Marduk

There is no longer any point in this thread.

Huanito I wish you the best. If I leave you with one thing, it's that I'm firmly convinced she never really was over her affair. Whether that's with her body or with her heart is up to you. 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

> By Blossom L
> “…focus on your own healing for yourself and your kids.”


Excellent Blossom, Condensed and concise!

*For now that is the winning strategy for the OP whether he D or R.*
If the OP continues to concentrate on his wife he will explode!


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## Blossom Leigh

Thank you... Blunt

Huanito, I am hoping the absolute best for you and your kids.


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## G.J.

After ALL of your story I think you have tried more than most to salvage your marriage when it seems not salvageable

Hope you find happiness what ever you do


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## huanito

Thank you all for your best wishes. I'm starting to feel better now. Just focusing my time spending time with my kids and looking after myself. 

We have decided to wait until summer when the kids are out of school before we make any drastic changes in our living arrangements. Until then take the time to fully consider all of our options.

The wife is starting to change her position on going to canada every summer for extended vacations and opening up to going and coming back together when we do go. I feel like mentally now I'm already past that and ready to move on.

she is trying to work it out for the sake of the kids and has asked me why I am not willing to do the same. She mentioned to me how my daughter was asking for me the other day when I was late at work and saying that she doesn't see me as much. (I had to work late a couple of days to catch up on couple of days I did not go to work).

I always had the feeling at the time of the EA that my wife was very much in love with the OM but was still coming back to me because I'm the father of her children. 

I remember her mentioning to me in 2011 before I found out about the EA that she can't stand or tolerate anyone yelling at her kids or attempting to discipline them even if they are in the wrong aside from thier father and gave me an example of a time she was at a store with the OM and kids and my son was acting up and the OM yelled at him and she got furious. At the time I was a little puzzled as to why she was sharing that with me but after finding out about the EA i was convinced that it is because as much as she loved him she wanted the kids to be with their father. She was torn between being with the man she loved and the father of her children.

Unfortunately I don't think I share the same sentiment because although my kids are young now and not fully aware what's going on but as they grow it will hurt them more to grow up in an unhealthy relationship.

The sister has been mentioned to be toxic to our relationship and although I don't want to spend time talking about the sister she has always been meddling in our relation and has been the cause if numerous fights between us in the past.

She has a history of meddling in people's relationship. She is the reason my brother in law and his brother don't speak anymore. Her younger brother who lived her moved away from her, her older brother and older sister don't speak with her even though they live in the same city. Her younger sister also moved away from the city because of her. The sister even cut ties with her parents abroad because simply they told her to leave her siblings alone. She is very controlling and likes to get involved in the finances and relationships of her siblings.

Unfortunately the bond between my wife and the sister is too great because she grew up in her sister's home and she can't simply say no to the sister. My wife cut ties with all of her other siblings simply because they cut ties with her sister.

She tried controlling my finances and created a lot of the mistrust my wife had against me. She pushed her sister to get me to mive to canada near her on so many occations before. Her sister and myself also stopped talking for couple of years after seperating in 2012 and every time I took her to her sister's house I used to just drop them off and leaving. My wife even told me now that the sister told her she would regret getting back together with me in 2012. She mentioned this to me now not as proof of how her sister was getting involved in our relationship but because she feels she should have took the sister's advice because of how I'm willing to let her go now even though she went against her sister at the time.

I could blame the sister for a lot of the fights my wife and I had in the past and even though after finding out about the EA I had sources who told me that her sister also had accusations of the same sort in the past but having the EA/PA with the OM is something I completely put on my wife's shoulders. 

Even now that the family know of our intention to seperate without the true reasons because of me not wanting to bring the EA/PA into the lime light she is the one being out spoken about how everything is my fault and I want to end the relationship because I'm loosing the means to support my family and want out. Her idea is that if we seperate I have to rent my wife an apartment in canada and pay the bills so she can raise the kids near her.

I have a feeling things are going to get ugly during seperation because of how the sister is and I'm sure she would play a big role in making things harder for us during this time because she is very vindictive and all about revenge and she has the greater advantage of being a big influence in my wife's decisions.


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## sparrow555

Does her sister know about the PA ?

Why not use the exposure of PA as a bargain point during separation and divorce ? Not as a way to fleece or but just to keep things fair.


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## Dyokemm

I agree,

Let at least the sister know of the EA/PA (though I truly suspect she already does know) and tell her to back off of she gets involved in your D proceedings.

Protecting her sister's reputation will probably get her to not cause drama.


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## Marduk

And your wife was with the other man openly with your kids?

This just keeps getting worse and worse. 

I'm sorry buddy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Disposable

@blueinbr
I like this response because it basically sums up my feelings around this. My H cheated, then denied it. Then admitted it because I continued to search for truth and found it.
At that point, he said "that is everything, you know the whole truth"". However, began to recognize a pattern and realized he had me in the trickle truth cycle. Everytime new information was uncovered, he would respond with "that is everything, now you know the whole truth."
I have since found out that this behavior has been going on for many years, involving many EAs. He has continued to try to convince me that he only had 1affair and only talked to these women on the phone and nothing else.

What I know and suspected all along is that I will probably never know the full extent of the whole sordid events. So, I have decided that I will expect the worse ( this has been going on for most of our M/there were many PAs/he will never admit to it all). Then, I asked myself could I live with that as long as his reasons for being back are sincere and he is making great efforts with R. This means NC, transparency, passwords, etc.

Of course, none of this means that it wont happen again, but I can accept our new life as long as he is committed to our M going forward. Because in my heart, I know the truth anyway. Yes, it would be nice if he confessed, but I no longer expect it or require it.


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## huanito

My wife took the home pregnancy test this morning and it came out positive.

We didn't have any intimate relations between the time I started this thread (when the PA was revealed) and now but we did between the time she had her last period and when I started this thread. Which was about a week or so.

Chances are the results are good although we want to confirm with another test and a doctor's appt.

If the pregnancy holds I'm 100% sure the baby is mine.


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## bandit.45

Well....


There it is....


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## workindad

OP- I sincerely hope that you find a way to effectively deal with this situation and that you are not posting here with thread titles of
10-years later
15-years later
and so on...

Best
WD


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## Decorum

huanito said:


> If the pregnancy holds I'm 100% sure the baby is mine.


Because your sperm has stronger swimming muscles?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------

