# TAM Experts Advice?



## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Reading a lot of posts, rather consistent concepts seem to run through responses from TAM veterans. For example, in coping with infidelity, betrayed are advised to just divorce the offender and move on. Attempting to repair damage is discouraged because success probability is essentially zero. For marital problems other than infidelity, counseling of one sort or another is recommended.

So, is there a summary sticky somewhere on this site laying out the default concepts for those dealing with marital issues? If so where is it? If not wouldn't that help people searching for answers? It would also help us non-veterans to avoid offering "borderline unethical" advice contrary to TAM wisdom.


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Why would you hesitate to offer advice that is contrary to the TAM concensus? Calling this concensus "wisdom" suggests you have unwarranted faith in it.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

first off, we are not specially trained professionals. We are just average citizens and strangers on the internet. I have offered my thoughts, opinions, perspectives and experiences and knowledge that I have obtained over 57 years of life on earth...... but whether anything I have ever offered is ethical, accurate or even the least bit appropriate is open for debate. 

There are some stickies at the top of each forum that highlight some good discussions. But there is no one-size-fits-all and none of us are prophets that have any end all/be all answers to anything. 

I can tell you what has worked and what has not worked in my own situations. And I can tell you what I think. But I don't pretend to have any actual answers for anyone else.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

And none of us here should ever be considered "experts." 

At best we have attended the School of Hard Knocks at some point. A few may be graduates. Some are still enrolled. 

And many have been suspended, expelled, dropped out or sent to the principals office.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Rus47 said:


> So, is there a summary sticky somewhere on this site laying out the default concepts for those dealing with marital issues? If so where is it? If not wouldn't that help people searching for answers? It would also help us non-veterans to avoid offering "borderline unethical" advice contrary to TAM wisdom.


Much if not most of the advice here is users projecting their own experiences onto yours. When it fits, it fits, and when it doesn't, well...

There's nothing unethical about any advice you might add as long as it isn't illegal and doesn't violate the posted rules of the board. Anyone is free to adopt or ignore it. FTMP, we don't know any more than you do about human relations, even if there are those here who will try to convince you otherwise.


----------



## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

Rus47 said:


> Reading a lot of posts, rather consistent concepts seem to run through responses from TAM veterans. For example, in coping with infidelity, betrayed are advised to just divorce the offender and move on. Attempting to repair damage is discouraged because success probability is essentially zero. For marital problems other than infidelity, counseling of one sort or another is recommended.
> 
> So, is there a summary sticky somewhere on this site laying out the default concepts for those dealing with marital issues? If so where is it? If not wouldn't that help people searching for answers? It would also help us non-veterans to avoid offering "borderline unethical" advice contrary to TAM wisdom.


There are no experts here. We are just people trying to help other people based on our own experiences and the many experiences we have read. No experts or Gurus around here...LOL. Oldshirt summed it up quite well regarding the stickies that are in place. TAM rules is also a great placed to go to.


----------



## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> And none of us here should ever be considered "experts."
> 
> At best we have attended the School of Hard Knocks at some point. A few may be graduates. Some are still enrolled.
> 
> And many have been suspended, expelled, dropped out or sent to the principals office.


At least one of posters have acknowledged being professional counselors. A few others state they are in legal profession. Several are in medical or social work. So seems at least some have something beyond their personal experiences


----------



## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> At least one of posters have acknowledged being professional counselors. A few others state they are in legal profession. Several are in medical or social work. So seems at least some have something beyond their personal experiences


Yes, but they're not YOUR counselors or lawyers. Their advice is generic and possibly valuable, but you have to take it in the same vein as other contributors.


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Rus47 said:


> At least one of posters have acknowledged being professional counselors. A few others state they are in legal profession. Several are in medical or social work. So seems at least some have something beyond their personal experiences


I don't know that anyone here has misrepresented their credentials, but on the internet, it does happen.


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Some advice is given b/c it is fun to give. The adviser may or may not think he is helping.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rus47 said:


> At least one of posters have acknowledged being professional counselors. A few others state they are in legal profession. Several are in medical or social work. So seems at least some have something beyond their personal experiences


We all have some collective wisdom and all have some kind of input we can throw into the mix from our professional lives. 

But a patent lawyer in Virginia shouldn't be considered an actual legal expert on family law matters for someone in Oregon. 

Same is true with any kind of counselor or medical professional as there is no client-professional relationship here. 

I am a health care professional but if I am out for dinner and someone at the next table over collapses, what am I?? A bystander. 

I will do what I can to help until paramedics arrive, but I am in fact a bystander helping out until the on-duty professionals arrive with the proper equipment and resources. 

This is the internet and we are bystanders and observers and have no client-professional relationship. We are just sharing our own personal opinions, thoughts and experiences.


----------



## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

Sfort said:


> Yes, but they're not YOUR counselors or lawyers. Their advice is generic and possibly valuable, but you have to take it in the same vein as other contributors.


Yes, exactly and thank you for pointing this truth out!
I'm a retired teacher with a masters in counseling and a minor in psychology. I can do private counseling, but I honestly am far from being an expert in relationships. My experience and strength is in dealing with child psychology and the impact trauma, neglect, abuse, etc. affect a child's performance in school and relationships surrounding my place of work. Not even close to handling couple, individual or marriage counseling. If I did, I would be making money in private practice and not cheapening my craft so to speak. I come here because I was both the BS and the WS at one time in my long life...


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> Reading a lot of posts, rather consistent concepts seem to run through responses from TAM veterans. For example, in coping with infidelity, betrayed are advised to just divorce the offender and move on. Attempting to repair damage is discouraged because success probability is essentially zero. For marital problems other than infidelity, counseling of one sort or another is recommended.
> 
> So, is there a summary sticky somewhere on this site laying out the default concepts for those dealing with marital issues? If so where is it? If not wouldn't that help people searching for answers? It would also help us non-veterans to avoid offering "borderline unethical" advice contrary to TAM wisdom.


Most people don't post on here to get "expert" advice. Most half-intelligent adults who post here know they are posting to normal people who have some experience with marriage in some way, but aren't at all qualified as any type of professionals.

You are also not recognizing that most people aren't looking for "expert" advice anyway - most people just want an empathetic ear to hear them, or they want to write out their challenges to understand them better, or they want to hear someone else's perspective, and they want anonymity...THAT'S the value of TAM. 

Anyone who actually wants an "expert" opinion has tons of other specifically labeled resources to choose from.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

We speak as we find — nothing more. We’re all different. My experience is decades of being a betrayed spouse and the difficulties of trying to reconcile during that time. I am rarely a supporter of reconciliation because of what I lived. That doesn’t mean it’s doomed to failure every time and I get that people often try against all odds, and want encouragement, but I usually try to stay away from those threads because they’re a huge trigger. I joined to help people who were like me — women ending long dysfunctional marriages, maybe having reconciled once or twice and discovering that didn’t work. That doesn’t mean I limit myself only to those threads but they’re usually my focus when they appear. Since I’ve been here, I think there’s been a shift among posters from more of a pro-reconciliation position to one that’s not. Maybe it’s because most of those old posters are gone now and newer ones have different ideas.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

A lot of times people just want to vent and spout to other people that understand where they are coming from. A lot of people simply want to be heard and understood rather than fixed. 

And some basically want others to cheer the hero (them) and boo the villains (whoever they are having the issue with).


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Openminded said:


> We speak as we find — nothing more. We’re all different. My experience is decades of being a betrayed spouse and the difficulties of trying to reconcile during that time. I am rarely a supporter of reconciliation because of what I lived.


Relating your experience is a good data point, and people may learn from it, so thank you. 

What some people will do though, is to go from "It didn't work for me" to "It never works". I don't have an opinion on reconciliation, it just came up as an example.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

SpinyNorman said:


> Relating your experience is a good data point, and people may learn from it, so thank you.
> 
> What some people will do though, is to go from "It didn't work for me" to "It never works". I don't have an opinion on reconciliation, it just came up as an example.


True. I recognize it can work for some. I just don’t have a lot of faith that it works for the majority. Had it worked for me, it’s possible that I might feel differently about the overall success rate. Not sure though because I tend to be a skeptic in general.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

All this place does is offer opinions and advice. I am not sure there is such a thing as an expert in any of this.


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I have a legit BS degree, and have been told I’m full of it. Does that count as credentials?


----------



## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Dude...it’s group therapy. Without the therapist. It’s free. 

_Mic drop_


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Rus47 said:


> Reading a lot of posts, rather consistent concepts seem to run through responses from TAM veterans. For example, in coping with infidelity, betrayed are advised to just divorce the offender and move on. Attempting to repair damage is discouraged because success probability is essentially zero. For marital problems other than infidelity, counseling of one sort or another is recommended.
> 
> So, is there a summary sticky somewhere on this site laying out the default concepts for those dealing with marital issues? If so where is it? If not wouldn't that help people searching for answers? It would also help us non-veterans to avoid offering "borderline unethical" advice contrary to TAM wisdom.


I would just point out that sometimes part of the "help" is that the poster gets to vent and share his problems with others, and anonymously, which is a great benefit to many. Here you can hear many views. There are no absolutes, of course. You get some input and then weigh that information and see if anything seems relevant or helpful.


----------



## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

sokillme said:


> All this place does is offer opinions and advice. I am not sure there is such a thing as an expert in any of this.


Ok, so there is no conventional wisdom or expertise, nothing backed by data or science. Just individual opinions based on their personal experiences and bias. So, would seem that any opinion is as valid as any other, because is just someone's opinion. Someone asking for advice will get a spectrum of advice. For example, someone betrayed by a spouse will have some telling them to divorce. Others will say reconcile. Some will say reconciliation has a 0.1% success rate, someone else will say the success rate is 85%. The person receiving the advice chooses one "opinion" ( maybe a minority opinion ) as how they will proceed, and is called foolish for accepting the "wacky" advice.


----------



## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Ready for another opinion?

I wouldn't be too concerned whether one is a ‘veteran’ here or not. Just jump in and share your views, experiences, and opinions (with awareness of the forum guide-lines). Sometimes group think happens yet counter-narratives are also helpful.

As the reader, we receive snippets of insight to a relationship. We don’t get the full complex dynamic and nuances. If something resonates with another, or facilitates a different view that is deemed by the individual as useful, then that’s it. Any kind of ‘change’ that someone might be seeking comes down to actions. Also I’d be cynical of someone claiming to be an ‘expert’ - and even more so in this format. Yet in saying that, I do not discount there are health and human service professionals posting too. 

We all have diverse lived experiences and qualities to share and this medium is just one way of doing so.


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Rus47 said:


> Ok, so there is no conventional wisdom or expertise, nothing backed by data or science. Just individual opinions based on their personal experiences and bias. So, would seem that any opinion is as valid as any other, because is just someone's opinion. Someone asking for advice will get a spectrum of advice. For example, someone betrayed by a spouse will have some telling them to divorce. Others will say reconcile. Some will say reconciliation has a 0.1% success rate, someone else will say the success rate is 85%. The person receiving the advice chooses one "opinion" ( maybe a minority opinion ) as how they will proceed, and is called foolish for accepting the "wacky" advice.


Most posters will say more than "Divorce" or "Reconcile", they will offer some rationale or evidence and this can help you decide. If you get one opinion that sounds well-thought out and helpful, and ten you recognize as crap, it's not like you have to do the stupid ones. If you don't get any helpful advice, at least it didn't cost anything.

If someone calls you foolish that is regrettable, but it is the internet.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Rus47 said:


> Ok, so there is no conventional wisdom or expertise, nothing backed by data or science. Just individual opinions based on their personal experiences and bias. So, would seem that any opinion is as valid as any other, because is just someone's opinion. Someone asking for advice will get a spectrum of advice. For example, someone betrayed by a spouse will have some telling them to divorce. Others will say reconcile. Some will say reconciliation has a 0.1% success rate, someone else will say the success rate is 85%. The person receiving the advice chooses one "opinion" ( maybe a minority opinion ) as how they will proceed, and is called foolish for accepting the "wacky" advice.


Well there isn't any one set of advice that TAM has to offer. 
Many of the statistics are made up based on the posters opinion. In your first post you said if it isn't infidelity they are told to get counseling. LOL. I find that funny because if there was one majority opinion (not consensus) it seems to divorce.

I see many a thread no matter what the issue is people say oh divorce. I think that is the because the majority of posters have been divorced and most are happier.

So I actually find it odd that the site is talk about marriage because many are pushed to divorce here. Second counseling is offered up but really counseling milage varies a lot. Counselors are like anything else some are good at what they do and some just aren't. So counseling only helps if you get a good one and both parties are ready to try to improve their relationship.

Some posters offer their perspective. They often times don't even really read the thread or consider the OP situation. They read enough to get triggered and then unleash, either on the poster or the posters significant other. Some of course try to offer advice based on the OP's post. But many OP's hide true relevant facts. And some posters treat it like a half read book and want to write the ending. Milage varies. 

So jump in. Offer advice you can do better than some and worse than others. Whether you are in the majority opinion or not doesn't matter. You do your best to help someone. Majority doesn't mean right.

In 2015, for every 1,000 married persons ages 50 and older, 10 *divorced*
Among all Americans 18 years of age or older, whether they have been married or not, 25 percent have gone through a marital split.
The National Council of Family Relations reports that about 50 percent of all American marriages end in divorce.
Among those who have said their wedding vows, one out of three have been divorced 

there are three different statistics about divorce. They don't agree. One this site if I had to make up a statistic I would say 80% of the posters are divorced. That certainly doesn't match any of the above statistics. So I think the majority opinion is posted by a group that is overweighed with divorced individuals. Does it make their advice wrong. nope just a different perspective than the ones who aren't divorced. JUMP in.


----------



## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> There are three different statistics about divorce. They don't agree. One this site if I had to make up a statistic I would say 80% of the posters are divorced. That certainly doesn't match any of the above statistics.


Well, to be fair, there are very few people here who came to brag about how great their marriages are. Almost if not everyone is here because of a marital problem that is usually serious. To equate this site's numbers with the general population would be like comparing how many people in a cancer clinic have cancer versus the general population.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Sfort said:


> Well, to be fair, there are very few people here who came to brag about how great their marriages are. Almost if not everyone is here because of a marital problem that is usually serious. To equate this site's numbers with the general population would be like comparing how many people in a cancer clinic have cancer versus the general population.


There are a few that are married and never divorced. But the main point was simply that advice from healthy marriages wouldn't necessarily be the majority but doesn't make the advice any more wrong or right. So don't be afraid to have a different advice.


----------



## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> In 2015, for every 1,000 married persons ages 50 and older, 10 *divorced*
> Among all Americans 18 years of age or older, whether they have been married or not, 25 percent have gone through a marital split.
> The National Council of Family Relations reports that about 50 percent of all American marriages end in divorce.
> Among those who have said their wedding vows, one out of three have been divorced


Maybe I read these statistics to say that after age 50, 1% of those married divorce in a typical year, So with life expected to last ~30 years after 50 the total probability would be 30%, which isn't much different than the other two stats, somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 of marriages end in a divorce. Somewhere I have read that second, third, etc marriages have even higher failure rates. Everyone I have ever known who married more than twice have gone on to three, four, five, etc.

So if I was advising someone about getting married after a divorce, would seem the honest data based advice would be to tell them the odds are against success. If advising someone about getting married in the first place, would tell them the chances of staying married are no better than 3 in 4, and average marriage has a 1/100 chance of divorce every year of the marriage? Not that someone "in love" is going to listen to any advice like that.

What might be even more useful in a marriage forum would be survey results summarizing what most common reasons for divorce were. I read somewhere that finances were the biggest cause for divorce.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Rus47 said:


> Maybe I read these statistics to say that after age 50, 1% of those married divorce in a typical year, So with life expected to last ~30 years after 50 the total probability would be 30%, which isn't much different than the other two stats, somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 of marriages end in a divorce. Somewhere I have read that second, third, etc marriages have even higher failure rates. Everyone I have ever known who married more than twice have gone on to three, four, five, etc.
> 
> So if I was advising someone about getting married after a divorce, would seem the honest data based advice would be to tell them the odds are against success. If advising someone about getting married in the first place, would tell them the chances of staying married are no better than 3 in 4, and average marriage has a 1/100 chance of divorce every year of the marriage? Not that someone "in love" is going to listen to any advice like that.
> 
> What might be even more useful in a marriage forum would be survey results summarizing what most common reasons for divorce were. I read somewhere that finances were the biggest cause for divorce.


So you advise someone to marry or not marry based on statistics?


----------



## dubsey (Feb 21, 2013)

Rus47 said:


> Ok, so there is no conventional wisdom or expertise, nothing backed by data or science. Just individual opinions based on their personal experiences and bias. So, would seem that any opinion is as valid as any other, because is just someone's opinion. Someone asking for advice will get a spectrum of advice. For example, someone betrayed by a spouse will have some telling them to divorce. Others will say reconcile. Some will say reconciliation has a 0.1% success rate, someone else will say the success rate is 85%. The person receiving the advice chooses one "opinion" ( maybe a minority opinion ) as how they will proceed, and is called foolish for accepting the "wacky" advice.


I'd say what you're getting, for the most part, is someone detached from the emotion of the situation and an outside perspective.

Now, not everyone can do that as you've seen in some of the more recent threads. Some of the other betrayed get triggered and can't see how each person's situation is different. So, you'd think I'd be implying that all the advice from those who've been betrayed and get triggered is bad. Far from it. Sometimes it's extremely relevant and helpful.

Each situation is a little different.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Rus47 said:


> So, would seem that any opinion is as valid as any other, because is just someone's opinion.


No, not any opinion is as valid as any other. My experience is rather different. I've had a lot of good advice, but, If you've been here with a story of failure, or if you are considered a doormat, for example, some "veterans" will consider your opinion less valid and they will remind you of this. Often. Especially if they don't agree with you...


----------



## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> So you advise someone to marry or not marry based on statistics?


I would tell them to study the stats, there are lot of sources from UN, CDC, etc and decide for themselves if they feel lucky rolling the dice. I would also say if divorce is the default answer whenever problems arise (which they certainly will) probably best to stay single and just date.

FWIW, our greatest troubles early in marriage were finances as in not enough money. But we never considered divorce because of those troubles. Lot of troubles voiced on this site seem to be poor intimacy and/or adultery. Thankfully we never experienced either of those, which would have defaulted to divorce.

I would also tell them that if person they are considering has addictions or flaws, those wont get better from getting married. In fact the skeletons hid in their closet will all manifest after the wedding is over. For example, if a partner has intimacy hangups, those arent going to disappear after marriage. If they hit the bottle everytime they are stressed, marriage wont fix it.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Rus47 said:


> I would tell them to study the stats, there are lot of sources from UN, CDC, etc and decide for themselves if they feel lucky rolling the dice. I would also say if divorce is the default answer whenever problems arise (which they certainly will) probably best to stay single and just date.
> 
> FWIW, our greatest troubles early in marriage were finances as in not enough money. But we never considered divorce because of those troubles. Lot of troubles voiced on this site seem to be poor intimacy and/or adultery. Thankfully we never experienced either of those, which would have defaulted to divorce.
> 
> I would also tell them that if person they are considering has addictions or flaws, those wont get better from getting married. In fact the skeletons hid in their closet will all manifest after the wedding is over. For example, if a partner has intimacy hangups, those arent going to disappear after marriage. If they hit the bottle everytime they are stressed, marriage wont fix it.


I would say divorce shouldn't be the default answer but look around the site. It's just my observation.


----------



## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> I would say divorce shouldn't be the default answer but look around the site. It's just my observation.


There was a change we both made about 5 years in that made all of the difference in our marriage and our lives. Not allowed to say what it was here, and most wouldnt receive it if I did. Without that change, we both believe we would have been divorced.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Rus47 said:


> There was a change we both made about 5 years in that made all of the difference in our marriage and our lives. Not allowed to say what it was here, and most wouldnt receive it if I did. Without that change, we both believe we would have been divorced.


Well when I first came I thought that I might have something to offer couples who have trouble as I have a great marriage and have had for 27 years. We have weathered so many 'storms' but we don't fight or let those things put space between us. We have more sex than when we got married.

Then I realized so many of these relationships are between incompatible people not interested in their spouse or marriage. I laugh at some of the views of healthy relationships and how you should treat your spouse. So I guess my model doesn't work for people 10 years in married to someone they really don't like and has not interest in treating with respect.


----------



## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> Well when I first came I thought that I might have something to offer couples who have trouble as I have a great marriage and have had for 27 years. We have weathered so many 'storms' but we don't fight or let those things put space between us. We have more sex than when we got married.
> 
> Then I realized so many of these relationships are between incompatible people not interested in their spouse or marriage. I laugh at some of the views of healthy relationships and how you should treat your spouse. So I guess my model doesn't work for people 10 years in married to someone they really don't like and has not interest in treating with respect.


Bullseye. There are definitely different attitudes and cultures about marriage here. Those differences are often responsible for comments that others perceive as arguments. They're not. They're expressions of different opinions. I could never imagine doing with my spouse what @Cici1990 and her spouse did when she was 24. However, they were into it, it apparently had not lingering effects, so who's to complain? She's in a different generation than I am. Do I think those attitudes may cause serious problems down the road. Yep. However, some of the stupid stuff I did when I was 24 is causing problems at my age. (I suffer with RJ.) 

These younger people here are probably grossed out over our discussions of sex at our age, but don't assume there's no fire in the furnace just because there's snow on the roof. I hope that they will get to our ages and have the same positive experiences we're having (without all of the negative experiences it took to get here.) I'm an expert in some things, but the opposite sex is *NOT* one of those things.


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Rus47 said:


> Maybe I read these statistics to say that after age 50, 1% of those married divorce in a typical year, So with life expected to last ~30 years after 50 the total probability would be 30%,


No, it would be 26%.

At the end of year 1, 99% are still married. At the end of year 2, 99% of that 99% is still married. etc, etc, at the end of 30 years, .99^30 = .7397% are still married, meaning 26.03% got divorced


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Marriage statistics are like opinions. Everyone has one none of them match up perfectly. El has a great article how the common stats cited are wrong. 

I do think the rate of divorce and the rate of reconciliation are misrepresented on this site just because most of the people here are divorced and didn't reconcile so they assume that is the way it is all the time. I know plenty of people who aren't divorced and plenty who are.


----------



## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

I think the “divorce them” advice is higher here because let’s face it...if you’re down to Googling your issues and seeking advice from internet strangers, you’re probably near the end of the proverbial rope. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

SpinyNorman said:


> No, it would be 26%.
> 
> At the end of year 1, 99% are still married. At the end of year 2, 99% of that 99% is still married. etc, etc, at the end of 30 years, .99^30 = .7397% are still married, meaning 26.03% got divorced


Assuming independent variables (no repeat divorces, for instance).


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Cletus said:


> Assuming independent variables (no repeat divorces, for instance).


The only # given was the 1% divorce rate so that was all I used. I wasn't given any #s for remarriage or mortality so I used zero for both.


----------



## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Marriage statistics are like opinions. Everyone has one none of them match up perfectly. El has a great article how the common stats cited are wrong.
> 
> I do think the rate of divorce and the rate of reconciliation are misrepresented on this site just because most of the people here are divorced and didn't reconcile so they assume that is the way it is all the time. I know plenty of people who aren't divorced and plenty who are.


Or maybe this site tells the real story which is usually unknown in our daily relationships. The couple down the street that split after the wife turned up pregnant don't publicize that the pregnancy resulted after a 6 month spree banging her best friend behind the husband's back.

The more threads I read here, the more have moved into the "Divorce" camp for those betrayed. The meme that cheaters are a special breed shows over and over. When I joined TAM, was believer in trying to repair the damage. But in most cases seems the WS justifies their behavior and thinks the betrayed needs to repair the relationship. 

My default advice now would be to file for Divorce as soon as betrayal is confirmed and never look back. No reconciliation under any circumstances, time and money better spent starting over. Grey rock the WS.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I would say I’ve become much more of a cynic for sure since I joined here.


----------



## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Openminded said:


> I would say I’ve become much more of a cynic for sure since I joined here.


Cynic or realist?


----------



## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Evidently there is a document somewhere, entitled "Cheaters Handbook"? My impression is that TAM veterans would point to that document as outlining how to identify a cheater as they all exhibit the same personality traits. The threads I have read about it certainly confirms a commonality among the wayward. Where would the document be found?

What I was trying to suggest when started this thread is that there are books, websites, other resources that TAM veterans mention when advising how to deal with various issues. NMMNG for example is usually mentioned when wife loses respect for her husband. Various others are mentioned when there are sexual problems in the marriage. "Cheaters Handbook" is mentioned for those betrayed. 

Are the resources summarized somewhere on TAM?


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

IDK about cheater's handbook, but the research I've read says that the behavior of cheaters falls into a bunch of different categories.

If you want to immerse yourself in the concensus of the TAM veterans, go for it, but I would point out how concensus develops on the internet. People gravitate towards a forum having opinions consistent w/ their own. People who had a bad time tend to post more often and more vociferously. So in this forum, people whose spouses cheated tend to dominate the posting. I'm not knocking them, but I would take that into account when you read stuff here. While I don't defend adulterers, I think negative opinions of them are going to be more popular than more objective pieces.


----------



## NTA (Mar 28, 2021)

It's also good to ask follow up questions. Sometimes you get answers that shows how and why that course of action was right for that person.
some people (not here) had chided me for telling my future husband that we could not go further in our relationship until he dumped "the friend." and so he did. I suspect those women on another message board who had chided me probably liked the idea of having male friends, being wined and dined and not having to put out. So one needs to assess as best as possible what could be motivating one's stance on a matter.

One reason divorce is offered as a solution so often is that you just can't make another adult stop doing what hurts / bothers / annoys you unless you have a third party involved. Neighbors are regulated by the Housing Association. Coworkers are regulated by HR and employment law. Friends are regulated by what one can do for the other. ie, "Piss me off too much and I'll take you off my guest list."

How can a married couple reconcile when one side wants to continue sampling?


----------



## NTA (Mar 28, 2021)

I forgot to mention that this is a great place to get the questions that you need to ask.


----------



## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Approaching TAM expertise from slightly different direction, there seem to be some with acknowledged expertise who have successfully navigated the issues they faced in different areas and from different perspectives. As an example, AfairCare has a perspective of former wayward who has a lot of sensible things to tell the wayward seeking to undo the damage they have done go themselves and others. TJW has perspective of a betrayed spouse dealing with an unrepentant wayward. Sokillme has a list of cheater behaviors and "red flags". In the realm of Sex in Marriage, Personal and Conanhub have a lot of advice about addressing those issues.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Rus47 said:


> Evidently there is a document somewhere, entitled "Cheaters Handbook"? My impression is that TAM veterans would point to that document as outlining how to identify a cheater as they all exhibit the same personality traits. The threads I have read about it certainly confirms a commonality among the wayward. Where would the document be found?
> 
> What I was trying to suggest when started this thread is that there are books, websites, other resources that TAM veterans mention when advising how to deal with various issues. NMMNG for example is usually mentioned when wife loses respect for her husband. Various others are mentioned when there are sexual problems in the marriage. "Cheaters Handbook" is mentioned for those betrayed.
> 
> Are the resources summarized somewhere on TAM?


LOL Oh @Rus47 you tickle me. 

There isn't really a book or PDF or document somewhere called "The Cheater's Handbook." Wouldn't it be nice if it were written down like that? 

No, what we mean when we say that is that cheaters seem to follow a pretty predicable pattern. For example, ILYBINILWY = I Love You But I'm Not In Love With You. For some reason, almost every unfaithful person says that, and what they think it means is that when people are married they should feel "In Love" all the time, and they "care" but they don't have butterflies in their stomach for you. What it really MEANS is that they don't care that much if it hurts you or not, they have butterflies for someone else. And seriously, almost every cheater says these exact words!

Another example, "We're JUST FRIENDS." They think it sounds like is "We haven't had sex (yet), and you're the one who's nuts because you're invading my privacy" and what it really means is that they are trying to throw the BS off the scent and gaslight them. Actually, the manipulative "you invaded my privacy" is another very typical cheater saying, because clearly it's reasonable to actually lie and cheat...but one spouse looking at another spouse's phone is a criminal offense of epic proportion! {/sarcasm}

Anyway, hope that makes sense. There isn't a REAL "Cheater's Handbook" book or document, but we do often say "Oh that's chapter three of the Cheater's Handbook" because they really do seem to follow the same pattern! What's funny is that I'll be you any amount of money that each cheater thinks they are being so stealthy and smart, and like their situation is SOOOOO unique. In real life, it's a joke how ordinary it is.


----------



## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Thank you! That is what I was talking about. OK, it isn't a book as such but you summarized the gist of it quite well. I think SoKillMe had a list of 15 cheater characteristics. This wisdom captured somewhere on the site (if not in a book or PDF) for those seeking help on a common topic would help them help themselves. The bibliography you share at bottom of your post could be a "sticky" somewhere on the site.

I keep reading themes that repeat in thread after thread, the advice is usually the same, based on the experience or in some cases scientific and psychological studies. Yes humans are actually pretty predictable in their behavior patterns.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Our credentials were given to us by our Father.

My brother is _THRD,_ and he is a better wizard than me.

_THRD_ had many people living in his head.
_Are Dee_ is his current stand-in.

We are well traveled and well versed in _being to being_ relationships.

We both have thousands of years of living behind us, in multiple worlds and dimensions.



_King Brian-_


----------

