# Longtime lurker - typical wife problems.



## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

I have been reading here and trying to improve the dynamics of my relationship for some time. I have made some of the same mistakes of trying to hard to fix things and becoming the (nice guy) who is taking way to much responsibility and putting in way to much effort into the relationship and getting little in return.

I have had all the same problems, little help around the house, bearing to much of the burden of chores, low sex - sex life, little effort deployed by wife in sex life when were being intimate, lack of respect from wife etc.

I have kids as well otherwise I would have probably given up by now. Instead I deviated away from how I used to be, as I tried harder and harder to try and repair the marriage and "fix" things - all the while making things worse. I suspected it was a mistake and pulled back a few times which caused more conflict. Eventually, I started searching the web and found this place.

Most comments from BigBadWolf, Mem and Atholk seemed to resonate best with me and really brought me back to my roots. How I used to be. I went through a lot of woman before marriage and had little trouble with them. Except for the last two relationships where I got serious, cared, fell in love and changed my behavior.

I should point out that my wife has no friends, because at some point they always have a falling out because eventually it would seem everyone "wrongs" her and she goes postal on them effectively ending the friendship. All her family are hot heads and have huge family pow wow's (fights) that you couldn't even imaging unless you saw one. It's been a few years since the last one but it's a repeating process. And strangly enough these are really her only "friends". Her only defense in any argument is an over the top, completely eggagerated offense. Attack, attack, attack. Me and brother in laws often say that these women are different in that we all argue to address a problem, or fix an issue, or defend a position - where these girls argue simply to hurt and to win. Based on the things they do and say.

Over the years she has toned it down some, but when she really gets going she says things she won't remember saying - and she'll accuse me of saying things that I never said. It's almost like she combusts to the point of losing track of reality and then creates her own.

Moving along.........

So I have started doing less, holding the wife accountable, being more ****y (which has always been a natural thing for me so I'm kinda reverting back to myself) trying to be more upbeat and fun, going out on my own, doing what I want within reason regardless, etc.

All in all it has been working fairly well. My wife is a firecracker and has a TERRIBLE temper. She also had a screwed up upbringing and brings baggage with her. The problem is she is constantly testing me, or saying stupid disrespectful comments that I can't ignore. I try to repond calm and cool but when it's happening often it gets harder and harder to not get riled up. Also, she will often keep ramping up her assault if I stay cool and accuse me of jumping down her throat at every little thing because I have calmly expressed displeasure at her either disrespecting me or crossing a boundry. It's like she wants the fight.

So that's problem one, how does one keep himself calm after relentless baiting and pushing of buttons.




Problem two: She puts no effort into our sex life. It has been better as in if I initiate she is more responsive - but she never puts the effort in. Most recently I was trying to make her more into it, and enjoy it more. I made it in my head about her and gave her lots of oral and she most often would come two or three times to my once. Great for her. But after a few months off that I'm wanting her to experiment and put the same effort in for me. I have told her that. She has either said the what she does or has been doing is never enough for me. Or that she is not sexually outgoing like me. Well that's convienent. 

So we have a huge fight recently (about something entirely different). I did not try and fix it because she was out of line. She stayed mad and cold for a couple of weeks. She kept escalating and being a *****, and baiting me over the course of the couple weeks. I called her out each time and didn't let her get away with anything. I held my ground until she realized this approach wasn't going to work as I wasn't going to give in just to make peace and get laid. Not that hard because when she's being like this there is NOTHING attractive about her. By and large I didn't fly off the handle during these just said my piece and she would get loud and then we wouldn't talk for a couple of days. Eventually, she came to me and wanted to talk. She didn't apologize really but accepted that things needed to change. I told her what I wanted from her (excluding sexually cause it wasn't the time or part of the equation) and she me. 

A tense couple of days later we are getting along better but no sex life. So like some of the advice I have read, I have not been saying ILY unless she has, I have only offered a couple of hugs on my own otherwise only when she has, and I have made no effort to be intimate with her waiting for her to put some effort in (as before the argument I was already annoyed about this and had decided until she "treats" me in some way I was done doing for her)

So it would appear any progress I had been making is gone. Things have gone from cold to luke warm. She knows my sexual appetite and the effort I had put in for her but has done nothing about it.

Any thoughts on how to continue? I obviously need to tweak come changes. I'm starting to get to the point of accepting my wife has personality issues and resigning that I should just move on to something with at least the "opportunity" to succeed. I'm not afraid of leaving, and have no doubt I could find happiness elsewhere - however my first choice is to make US work. Both for us and for the kids. I do love her, but the feeling of being IN love is waning. I'm simply not prepared to do all the changing, and all the work myself. That is not an option.

And BTW - I know I'm going to get advice to do MC. We have, and the counciller was very good. And by and large she sided with me and told my wife she needed to change in a lot of areas. She didn't like that and isn't a fan of going back. That said, it's very expensive and she WILL go back but doesn't take much from it. Me changing how I interact with her makes the most change.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Any comments?


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

Eagleclaw,

Sorry to hear your tale about your wife, I suggest you do a search for posts by Uptown, in particular two recent ones dealing with borderline personality disorder - BPD. You'll learn a lot.

Your wife, like my 1st suffers from BPD - easily angered, the way she has no friends, going postal, etc.

I don't think there's any cure for her, as long as you live with her you're the bad guy. Marriage counselling will not help, her family even crazier than my ex's - that is incredible.

My divorce in '84 was tough, your future could be a lot happier if she was not a part of your life with the exception of your children. If you read my way too many posts you'll find that children grow up and eventually realize mom is off the wall, along the way it is possible for fathers to stay connected.

Good luck,

Mark


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Thanks for the message, I have wondered about bpd before. Jury is out for me as to whether she has it or not. When I read about it she definately has some of the symptoms but then others she doesn't. Or she has them less so than an outright bpd. Maybe she's only a borderline borderline? lol.

Either way leaving is always an option, but I really want to try some of these methods and see how much we can improve it so hopefully I don't have to tear the kids floor out from under there feet.


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## lovelieswithin (Apr 29, 2010)

Yea... sounds like a LOT of emotional games between two very intelligent people. Its sad that we (im in a similar boat) have to do tricks like a damn circus poodle in order to get our partner to contribute to the happiness and well being of the marriage. There are a lot of inbalances here... is she clueless that you're trying so hard? Have you straight up asked her how she thinks you two could improve the marriage & comminication? screaming has to stop. It pushes u into defense/attack mode and does 0. (as u know) My suggestion is to both commit to stopping communication when it goes loud and return when u both calm down. Why bother? because its mean to scream. Both people become more unattractive even though theyre both ultimately trying to fight for the approval and acknowledgement of the other partner. Recognize that the point to marriage is taking care of each other emotionally and physically - and creating memories as you go through the journey together. But there are factors causing your bond to become more enemy like and more like a battlefield and my one word is "resentments". although u seem like u made up the last fight around- u didnt. underlying resentments are the silent fuel to the fires of irrational behaviors. If u both dump ALL of your resentments on the table (best in presence of a counselor buffer) then its more likely you can both start seeing changes as long as you both committ 100% to working forward. you should learn new ways to communicate- simple methods like taking your discussion to a park with a beautiful setting help some people remain more calm. Only talking about problems when both are in the rigt mind set to take in criticism... and some couples find comfort in holding hands lovingly as they discuss issues calmly. 
RETHINK and focus on loving communication as a new practice. Let the uncovering and forgiveness of resentments begin. Resentment slaughters the libido and can drop you out of love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

Curiosity killed the cat, but I do wonder why you chose favorite authors and their methods over the numerous other advice that is offered here. Now that you know the advice you value most does not work, it's time to do one of two things: either find out what her problem is since you accept there is some personality disorder, or leave. Marriage counseling didn't work because you didn't have the right kind of counselor, which you unfortunately cannot have known. It makes one partner feel wonderful to have someone, particularly an authority figure such as a counselor, on their side. It validates them and gives a sense of pride for what they feel they knew all the long - that they were right. But, it alienates the unvalidated partner and is counterproductive. Generally, a good counselor's position is not to take sides. Initially, the partners are disappointed, each feeling they were never validated, but at least they are disappointed equally because one doesn't have to be right and the other wrong in order to make the marriage work and to preserve love and intimacy.

What you needed were the tools - productive ways to work out and work through your differences. Marriage counseling should never be an opportunity to sit and complain about each other. It should be structured and equipped with exercises designed for you both to learn various skills and how to implement them. This way, no one is turned off or reduced. Each partner simply applies the principles according to each their own degree of dedication. If, for example, you're both assigned methods for better communication, but your wife does not apply herself, does not implement the prescribed methods, and instead continues or reverts back to her own way of communicating with you - yelling, not listening, starting arguments, baiting, etc. - then you can clearly see her level of devotion to you and the marriage. It eliminates the guess work on your part and your need to seek other methods and opinions because the methods/principles/exercises were designed based on the general principles of effective communication, coping skills, and conflict resolution (not random people's opinions) and are tried and proven. In my limited experience and familiarity, I've heard many couples say how well structured marriage counseling helped them. I've also heard people tell me they didn't participate because they were not interested in saving the marriage. See how is removes the guesswork?

Leaving, to me, is another method that works. I feel strongly that it wakes the other partner from their euphoric version of reality. It shocks the senses. Being taken for granted and taken advantage of is no fun and should not be tolerated anyway, and to live with someone who actually MAKES you UNhappy is also unacceptable. Those reasons alone are enough to leave. However, you don't have to adopt the idea of leaving with a sense of permanence or starting over, just with the intention of showing your wife what she has to lose and give her the opportunity to take inventory of her life. She wants to be with you obviously or she would have left by now. It's just that she wants to be with you on her terms. You have to show her that you have terms too and that she, like you, also has to give in order for the marriage to continue and to succeed. Tell her you would like to do marriage counseling again and you will not return until you see she is devoted. Take your underage children and set up temporary residence elsewhere with no further discussion or arguing in the process. Ignore her attempts to bait you and keep walking out the door.

I agree it sounds like your wife has some personality issues. It may be that she needs medication like the millions of other people (she is not unique in that sense) around the country. You might also insist that she begin individual counseling and it is likely your medical insurance covers that. It's worth a try and could prove beneficial even though our suspicions may be unfounded. It could be simply the way she grew up and old habits are nearly impossible to break. Still, it's worth a try.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

I think because I have backed off and now refuse to bear all the workload at home etc (and make her do her share and contribute) she thinks I am trying a lot less! Although sexually, she has commented about the effort I have put in and how it has helped us - although that hasn't really made her attempt to return the favour!

You make very good points - and your right - I carry a lot of resentment and so does she. However, I have forced myself to let go of resentment and start fresh several times through this marriage only to end up back here via lack of change on her part. And the problem I have with leaving an argument when it get's loud is she will keep pestering me until I resume. Or her other tactic is every interaction for the next week will be her oppertunity to try and bait me into another argument because of her pent up "resentment". 

Unfortunately she is much better than me at this. I can't stay mad very long. She can stay mad for a week. I simply don't enjoy living that way and it's not possible for me to stay in an unpleasant mood for very long. She's a master at it.

It's wierd, because she is very feministic in so far as she hates gender roles and has the attitude that no man is going to tell her this or that etc..... (and I'm not like that anyways) but if I adopt a more dominant forceful role and really hold her to task things seem to go better. The problem I have is when she keeps pushing boundries - and I calmly try defend them in no uncertain terms but by not yelling etc - she doesn't stop. I guess I need more examples on how to be assertive without setting a bad example. Keeping my cool so to speak.

She does wierd things like get in my face, block my path, try and charge through me. Stupid things like she's trying to intimidate me which I laugh off as it's not intimidating as I'm 6'4 230 pounds. I would never touch her but it goes to show how much she tries to get me going.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

All I can offer is what I have done. My wife is a firecracker too and in the past has been controlling. However she had done an about face and started the opposite - going out all the time, running, etc. 
I had to play complete hardball and start doing the same. Got really bad for a while but after a couple of weeks she was willing to come to a more balanced situation for both of us. 
She still goes on every once in a while about being controlled or being controlling but we've been working through it. 
The long and short of it though is that she's a lot more respectful, listens a lot more... And the sex has never been better!
I think some wives need to know their husbands for them to be interested.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Thanks Susan, interesting point of view. I chose the original authors because what they were suggesting, was more how I started out. How I originally attracted her and how I was when things were good. I think a lot of there advice was good. And it definately was making things better here. But I think there was still something I was missing, and your comments are very interesting as well. You made a lot of sense and also gave me a lot to think about and I thank you for that.

Like many others, I know how I would like to react, and how I would ideally handle some of these issues but I now think first about my kids and second about me. It would kill me to hurt them. I may have to, but if I can avoid it I will. And yes I realize the way things are isn't ideal for them either. But at least I'm here and in the picture for them now. If I was to leave they would have no one in there corner and would have to deal with her alone. (she's a good Mom and wouldn't hurt them - but she is emotional and loses her temper with them too) If I took them with me I would be starting WWIII and it would get ugly. Given the way usually the woman get custody I would be probably setting myself up to never see them if I did that.


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> Like many others, I know how I would like to react, and how I would ideally handle some of these issues but I now think first about my kids and second about me. It would kill me to hurt them. I may have to, but if I can avoid it I will. And yes I realize the way things are isn't ideal for them either. But at least I'm here and in the picture for them now. If I was to leave they would have no one in there corner and would have to deal with her alone. (she's a good Mom and wouldn't hurt them - but she is emotional and loses her temper with them too) If I took them with me I would be starting WWIII and it would get ugly. Given the way usually the woman get custody I would be probably setting myself up to never see them if I did that.


I can give you a few more reasons/excuses not to leave if you ever find yourself short LOL. My question is why you fear WWIII? The answer could be a part of the cause of your marital problems. Fear of facing the outcome will usually prevent people from doing what they need to do. Your wife, as a woman, needs to depend on you being her strong man. If she can push you around, she will.....and she does. That is just human nature and the way people take advantage of each other. A woman wants her man stronger than her. In other words, she needs to know you have balls.

The bottom line is she cannot prevent you from seeing your children. Were it to come down to divorce, you will be awarded visitation and 50/50 custody if you ask for it. She cannot erode your right as a parent.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

I don't fear WWIII as we have that often. lol.

She doesn't push me around, although she tries and thus is how the fight often starts because I won't always do what she wants, or accept how she is acting when it's clearly unacceptable. I keep holding her accountable.

WWIII would be not because I left, but because I left and TOOK HER KIDS. Actually, if she left with the kids I'd probably react similarly. My fear is if I left and took the kids that would make her even more resentful and that might inspire her to make it difficult for me to see my kids.

I'm in Canada, where normally, unless totally unfit the mother will get primary custody and the father will get visitation.


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

*Custody -*

Eagleclaw,
Just saw you are in Canada, I'm thinking about the US. That sucks!

I think Susan is correct - it is unlikely your ex would be awarded full time custody unless you have a documented history of being an unfit parent or live somewhere where courts and legislature are in the middle 1/3 of the 20th C. Time was in the US where a man always had custody of his children.

I had my kids 50% or more of the time they weren't in school, this was in '85.

Don't do what I did and agree to transfer all my share of my and our assets and pay outrageous child support in return for your wife's agreement on custody - even the judge was surprised by the terms when he read them.

I did it because my ex said "give me everything in return for 50%+ custody or I'll fight for years". You don't have to accept offers like this, my BPD ex was a b****, I was tired of fighting, in the end I had my kids, still do, and have enough money to live the rest of my years in comfort. I am a fortunate man.

Mark


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You say she will go to counseling, so why don't you get her to go to a psychiatrist, instead, for a real analysis?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

EC,
You have balls and brains - and THAT means all you need is to refine your technique. Before we take this any further I just want to understand a few things better:
1. What kind of physical shape are you in? 
2. What shape were you in when you two met?
3. Who is the primary breadwinner? 
4. Do you both work full time?




eagleclaw said:


> I have been reading here and trying to improve the dynamics of my relationship for some time. I have made some of the same mistakes of trying to hard to fix things and becoming the (nice guy) who is taking way to much responsibility and putting in way to much effort into the relationship and getting little in return.
> 
> I have had all the same problems, little help around the house, bearing to much of the burden of chores, low sex - sex life, little effort deployed by wife in sex life when were being intimate, lack of respect from wife etc.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Two other questions - typically how often do you have sex?
How old are you/her?

And one other comment. How close are you to perfecting the art of conflict? By that I mean NOT allowing a conversation that gets you upset/angry - and ALSO not letting her get away with nonsense? 

For instance, when she tries to push your buttons have you learned to extract yourself from the conflict emotionally - recognize she is trying to gain the upper hand solely by getting you angry and just smiling at her and saying "that is ludicrous and childish - tell you what - when you are actually ready to try to resolve this like a grown up I will talk to you until then silence rules". And then go on about your business. Radiate calm and happy and be polite but completely emotionally cool to her. Short friendly answers to questions - but a very emotionally reserved posture. 

How was your day "fine, thanks" and thats it. 

I would also say that you need to agree to rules of engagement. You need to sit her down and explain what it means to "fight fair". There are some great things you can find using "google" on how to fight fair. 

On top of that though - you need to explain to her that absent her making more effort to make you feel physically loved, you are seriously concerned about the health of your marriage. 





MEM11363 said:


> EC,
> You have balls and brains - and THAT means all you need is to refine your technique. Before we take this any further I just want to understand a few things better:
> 1. What kind of physical shape are you in?
> 2. What shape were you in when you two met?
> ...


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

1) I'm in pretty good shape, although I quit smoking a year ago and have gained 20 pounds so now 6"4 230 pounds. I'm active though and getting back in shape and slowly losing.

2) 20 pounds lighter and a smoker - 15 years ago.

3) Both work full time but I am the primary by a long shot.

4) Yes

Typically have sex couple of times a month. Lately a little more often until the fight. But only if I initiate and she gets all the extra attention. In fact we had one weekend about 2 months ago 7 times in 4 days. Definately not the norm, not sure what happened there.

I'm 39 her 38.

I would say my art of conflict is a work in progress. I'm doing much better at it, but I do eventually run out of patience and get angry. Plus, when I withdraw she can be cold indefinately. We are on week three now and she seems fine with it. Were acting like luke warm roommates and I'm doing my own things but really, how can SHE not want things to be better? I've read comments on defending boundries, and not putting up with crap all by and large I get it and it seems to work. But every now and then I draw a line in the sand, and she not only crosses it - but kicks sand in my face and does a jig in front of me on my side of the line. When this happens **** hits the fan cause I can't ignore it, and walking away quietly seems week as well. This is when I get loud and charged up.

She knows how I feel about the lack of sex life, in fact she often when she is angry implies that I have something on the side, or I have given up cause I found someone else. I have not. I have had my chances, but thus far - have passed the tests. Although the last one was really hard! lol.

Appreciate your comments.

One more thing - you have mentioned you changed the dynamic in your relationship. Once thing I have never seen is, once you started employing these changes, how long would you say it took for things to come around? Are we talking weeks, months?

Thanks again.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It sounds like she loves to play the 'game,' and you fall for her tactics every time. She knows YOU much better than you know her. She knows exactly how to make you get back in line. So maybe you just need to steel yourself to rise above it.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

I'm not sure I really know what you mean turnera, I suppose if she loves fighting and being at odds with each other then I guess you might be right. IF that's the case, then I'm out. Cause I don't want to live with a person like that. I hope your wrong about that.

As far as the phychologist suggestion, she would never go along with that. Different step from going to a MC. 

I have hope, because it used to be a lot worse. Until I got to the point where I thought - screw it - I dont' care if this falls apart it's sure as not going to be like this and started to live differently and taking her to task. Things have improved, and I have hope they improve further. But I do think I need to tinker with some adjustments to see what kind of effect they might have. As mentioned if you keep doing everything the same, you will get the same response.

Thanks for your thoughts.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

What would she do if you told her you want to take a break for a month or two? Because with someone who is BPD the ONLY thing they respond well to is fear.

Have you asked her what her financial plan is if you two part ways. You can "nicely" say, I am worried about you, not sure what you are going to do for money if our marriage doesn't get back on track. Because I am running out of patience. 

All said in a very calm way. 




eagleclaw said:


> 1) I'm in pretty good shape, although I quit smoking a year ago and have gained 20 pounds so now 6"4 230 pounds. I'm active though and getting back in shape and slowly losing.
> 
> 2) 20 pounds lighter and a smoker - 15 years ago.
> 
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> I'm not sure I really know what you mean turnera, I suppose if she loves fighting and being at odds with each other then I guess you might be right. IF that's the case, then I'm out. Cause I don't want to live with a person like that. I hope your wrong about that.


Well, for instance, a lady we do business with came from a wealthy family in an Asian country. So she's used to being 'on top' - a rich person lording it over everyone else. Now that she's no longer rich, she tries to maintain the same amount of control over people by putting them on the defensive. Her favorite word is 'liar' - as in, you're such a liar, I never said that, YOU screwed up. 

Unsuspecting people will instantly try to defend themselves to her, which immediately gives her the control.

Now, that's what my husband does when dealing with her. Works every time. He spends all his time trying to protect himself from her getting upset with him. I, on the other hand, don't take that crap; I call her out on it. Guess which one of us she won't talk to?


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

I'm sorry, but what mental health professional diagnosed this lady with BPD? This is all layman's conjecture, and from one person's viewpoint. Let's not offer opinions on the incredibly sensitive question of custody of children based on one person's complaints on a web forum.

Please, I just think it could be destructive. 

what ever happened to joint custody?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I take posts at face value. When someone is talking about ending it - often the best means to avoid divorce is to convey that you are emotionally "there" before you get past the point of no return. As for labels - BPD is just that. Regardless of the label, if his post is accurate he is dealing with someone whose idea of conflict resolution is simply to beat the other person into submission. 

My experience with the male/female dynamic is this. If you actually ARE a good male partner, the most likely path to destruction with an aggressive female partner is to allow them to lose respect for you over a protracted period of time. And for uber-aggressive folks - the best therapy is shock therapy. 




TeaLeaves4 said:


> I'm sorry, but what mental health professional diagnosed this lady with BPD? This is all layman's conjecture, and from one person's viewpoint. Let's not offer opinions on the incredibly sensitive question of custody of children based on one person's complaints on a web forum.
> 
> Please, I just think it could be destructive.
> 
> what ever happened to joint custody?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Eagleclaw, I agree with ThinkTooMuch (tell me, are you guys American Indians?). As Think says, your W likely suffers from strong traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). 


> All her family are hot heads.


Recent studies indicate that BPD is likely caused by both heredity and environment (e.g., physical abuse, abandonment, or a verbally abusive parent like your W). One implication is that it is not surprising that most of her family is that way -- that is where she got the traits to begin with. Another implication is that your W's genetics and abusive behavior raise the risk factor for your children.


> She also had a screwed up upbringing.


Like I said, BPD is believed to be caused by heredity in combination with a traumatic early childhood (i.e., typically before age 5).


> I deviated away from how I used to be, as I tried harder and harder to try and repair the marriage and "fix" things


You likely are a caregiver type guy like me. We were raised to fix things and smooth things over among family members. As a result, we are attracted to the wounded birds of life because our desire to be needed far exceeds our desire to be loved. This is why we are so attracted (initially) to BPDers -- they project vulnerability, always thinking of themselves as victims. As soon as the honeymoon period ends, however, you shifted to walking on eggshells to avoid triggering her anger. The result is that you haven't been your "true self" for many years.


> she will often keep ramping up her assault if I stay cool


Your W likely has the emotional development of a four year old, the age at which she experienced such trauma that her emotional development was frozen. This is why she never learned how to regulate her emotions, i.e., never learned how to do self soothing. Moreover, she has enormous rage inside her that she has carried since childhood. The result is that her anger is easily triggered -- in 10 seconds -- by innocent actions or comments by you. She therefore bursts into childish tantrums which typically last about five hours. Because she experiences these intense feelings sweeping over her every day, she becomes desensitized to "normal" feelings, finding them boring. She therefore has a strong need to create excitement and stimulation so as to feel alive. That is why she is always creating "drama." And that is why it is pointless trying to reason with her. Her objective is not to find a solution or a fair compromise. Instead, her objective is to create drama.


> I'm not sure I really know what you mean turnera, I suppose if she loves fighting and being at odds with each other then I guess you might be right.


I believe Turnera is right. As I explained, BPDers crave stimulation and drama because -- like any four year old -- they are used to experiencing very intense feelings and thus get bored easily. Of course, they generally prefer intense _good_ feelings to _bad_ feelings. Their problem with good feelings, however, is that they easily become intimate feelings, which overwhelm them with the fear of engulfment due to their fragile sense of who they are. The other problem with good feelings is that they do not provide a release for all the anger a BPDer has been carrying since childhood. Bad feelings, on the other hand, have the "benefit" of triggering an outpouring of that inner rage.


> she says things she won't remember saying - and she'll accuse me of saying things that I never said. It's almost like she combusts to the point of losing track of reality and then creates her own.


A very astute observation, Eagleclaw. You are correct. She does create her own reality -- but only with respect to other peoples' motivations. This is why BPD is called a "thought distortion." The illness distorts her perceptions of your intentions and creates feelings that are so intense that she is convinced they must have a basis in fact -- never mind that there are no facts or evidence to support it. (She nonetheless is not "crazy" because her perceptions of the physical world are not distorted.

As to her not remembering things she did and things you said, that is common with BPDers. It is partly due to the intense feelings, which color her judgment and cause her to frequently "rewrite history." (You and I do the same thing every time we get extremely angry with someone -- which is why we usually keep our mouths shut until we are able to cool down.) The forgetfulness is also partly due to a BPDer's frequent use of dissociation (i.e., splitting) to escape having to deal with someone. Do you remember the time that you were driving and you suddenly realized you could not remember a thing about the last ten miles -- not even the three stop lights you had to have passed through? Well, that was dissociation. Your mind was "split" in the sense that the conscious part was daydreaming and the subconscious was driving the car. BPDers do that a lot more than you do.


> my wife has no friends, because at some point they always have a falling out


I believe you mean to say that she has no _close_ friends. If your W is high functioning, she probably does quite well with handling complete strangers, business colleagues, and casual friends. Those people pose no threat of engulfment because there is no intimacy. And they pose no threat of abandonment because there is no relationship to abandon. Lord help them, though, if they start to draw close to her. 

On the other hand, if she really cannot avoid driving away casual friends, it likely is because she is not "high functioning" or because she has another problem in addition to strong BPD traits. That would not be unusual because most BPDers also have another problem such as depression or another PD.


> she is constantly testing me


Because their ability to trust was destroyed in early childhood, BPDers typically do endless testing of their partners to find out if they will remain loyal and will not abandon them. Of course, the reassurance they get from such tests lasts only a few hours because the next emotional tide sweeps aside all of the prior feelings. This is why your W likely is incapable of appreciating anything you've done for her for more than a few days -- well, maybe for a week if you spend a fortune on a gift. And, because she is unstable, she likely will tire of using that gift within two weeks. In any event, you will get tired of the endless testing. Of course, there are all the insulting questions. The worst part, however, is her notion that you cannot be properly tested unless she does something or buys something she knows you will absolutely hate so she can observe your reaction. Unless you hate it, she cannot feel that she made the decision to buy it. That is why your statement "Yes, I like it" is the kiss of death for an item she is thinking of buying.


> She knows my sexual appetite and the effort I had put in for her but has done nothing about it.


BPDers typically are very passionate during the six month honeymoon period -- which is when their twin fears of engulfment and abandonment are blocked by their infatuation over you. Then the passion usually goes downhill because BPDers -- like anyone who is depressed and in pain -- are self centered. On top of that, they feel a strong sense of entitlement to things you freely give them. That is, you are giving them things that, in their minds, were owed to them to begin with -- because they are always thinking of themselves as victims and thus are seeking (if not expecting) just compensation.


> I know I'm going to get advice to do marriage counseling.


Not from me. If your W has strong BPD traits, MC likely will be a total waste of time and money. A BPDer has damage to her emotional core -- damage that has been there since early childhood. That cannot be fixed by learning how to better communicate. Moreover, MCs typically have only a masters degree and are not properly trained to identify, much less treat, a personality disorder like BPD. Indeed, even a psychologist will be useless if your W does not have a strong desire to follow his guidance.

As to your repeated efforts to sooth her by walking on eggshells or trying to discover what you are doing wrong, that is a waste of time also. And, as to your plan to tweak your behavior and observe changes in her behavior, that will have little effect. The best you can do is to learn how to be more validating of her feelings. That will buy you a small improvement, perhaps. 

Yet, no matter what you do or say, an untreated BPDer will never trust or believe you. She will never stop being controlling and verbally abusive. She will never stop the endless testing. She will never stop treating you like a perpetrator (blaming you for every misfortune) so she can keep feeling like the eternal victim. And, because she has little sense of who she really is, she will never be emotionally stable. All those changes would require years of individual therapy with a professional who specializes in treating BPDers. And, from what you say, your W has no intention of starting it, much less finishing it.


> She does weird things like get in my face, block my path, try and charge through me.


My BPD exW did that too. Many times she would chase me from room to room. As I got older over the 15 years, my body chemistry changed to where I would get anxious or nervous more easily. The result was that I pushed her back off of me on three occasions, which is something you don't want to do to a 60 year old woman because they can easily trip. The third time she did fall backwards. She wasn't hurt but she did call the police and have me arrested for "brutalizing" her -- giving her time to obtain a restraining order so she could live in my home rent-free for 18 months, the time needed to obtain a divorce decree in this state. As the years go by, it is common for BPDers to become increasingly resentful of their spouse for not being able to make them happy. And they may become increasingly fearful of abandonment as they watch their good looks fade away. So it is common, a therapist said, for BPDers to abandon the spouse at about 15 years. At that point, they split him black permanently.


> I have wondered about BPD before. ... When I read about it she definitely has some of the symptoms but then others she doesn't.


Keep in mind that, even when the BPD traits fall short of the diagnostic level, it would still be very unpleasant trying to live with that person. Moreover, the diagnostic criteria only require the presence of five traits, not all nine. A high functioning BPDer, for example, typically does not have a strong trait of self destructive behavior like cutting or suicide attempts. In addition, most folks suffering from a PD do not fall into one PD category. Instead, they typically have traits of two. Significantly, the ten PDs do not constitute ten different illnesses. Instead, they are simply categorical devices that make it easier to describe the behavior a person is exhibiting. Hence, all ten PDs may be manifestations of the same underlying illness. Finally, BPD is somewhat of an "umbrella disorder" that includes traits of many other PDs. Indeed, the proposed new Diagnostic Manual includes NPD and AvPD together with BPD in a broad category called "Borderline Type."

The important issue, then, is not whether your W has BPD traits but, rather, whether she has strong traits of any PD. If she does, she is damaged at her emotional core. So marriage counseling is not going to fix it. Pills will not fix it. Your tweaking of your own behavior will not fix it. And, because she has no desire to work on this serious problem, it simply will not be fixed at all. 

Sadly, that is true for the vast majority of people with PDs, particularly for those with strong BPD traits. In order to learn how to control the illness, they must have sufficiently strong egos to be willing to let go of "being a victim" so they can start taking responsibility for their own actions. The vast majority of them are too fearful to do that. If you would like to read more about a BPDer's behavior, Eagleclaw, I suggest you check out my post in Gladiator's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-c...nhappy-violent-depressed-wife.html#post186216. And I would be glad to suggest online articles if you are interested. Meanwhile, Caregiver, start taking better care of yourself. You deserve it.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

TeaLeaves4 said:


> I'm sorry, what mental health professional diagnosed this lady with BPD? This is all layman's conjecture, and from one person's viewpoint.


Think never claimed Eagle's W had been diagnosed. Nor did he claim that he was making a diagnosis. Instead, he was simply encouraging Eagle to read about BPD so he can decide whether she likely has strong traits of BPD. At issue, then, is _whether Eagle is sufficiently intelligent to recognize a strong pattern of those traits when they occur._ Think believes he is. And I agree, especially considering that Eagle has been living with his W for many years. 

Indeed, I believe most 18-year-olds are capable of doing so and should be provided this information during their first year in college so they have a prayer's chance of protecting themselves at the very time they are starting to date. Millions of them could avoid years, if not a lifetime, of pain and suffering if they were taught how to recognize basic human behavioral traits when they are searching for compatible mates.

This is not rocket science. TeaLeaves, by the time you were in your late teens, you likely could easily identify men who were too self-centered and grandiose for you to consider dating, much less marrying. And you were able to do that without determining whether the selfishness was so severe as to merit a diagnosis of NPD. Similarly, you could identify young criminals having a pervasive disregard for other peoples' rights -- without being able to diagnose Antisocial PD. You could recognize extremely shy men -- without rendering a diagnosis of Avoidant PD. Of course, you also knew when a guy was acting paranoid -- without having a clue as to how paranoid he would have to be to warrant a diagnosis of PPD. Moreover, you avoided a few guys because you could see that they were loners who had no interest in social relationships -- and you were not attempting to diagnose Schizoid PD.

Why, then, are the nine BPD traits any different? They are surprisingly easy to recognize once you've read about them. What is difficult is determining whether they are sufficiently severe to warrant a diagnosis. More difficult still is knowing how to treat the disorder effectively. Hence, diagnosis and treatment are the province of professionals. Identifying the traits, however, is easy because every healthy human being exhibits all nine BPD traits, albeit at a low level.

The Nons (i.e., nonBPD partners of BPDers) cannot afford to wait for a psychologist to give them a diagnosis. For one thing, young people cannot afford to drag a psychologist along on every date. A second reason is that strong BPD traits (when untreated) can destroy a marriage even when they fall well short of the diagnostic level. Imagine being married to a very selfish and self-centered man who does not have full-blown NPD. Likewise, the absence of a BPD diagnosis does not mean you are safe.

A third reason is that therapists often are very reluctant to tell a patient she has BPD. One reason is that insurance companies usually refuse to cover that disorder, leading many therapists to list the "diagnosis" as one of the associated symptoms (e.g., depression) or as another disorder covered by insurance (e.g., depression, bipolar disorder, or PTSD).

A fourth reason is that they know a patient suffering from BPD almost certainly will terminate therapy when given such a feared diagnosis. So, in the unlikely event a person is given such a diagnosis and tells her partner, so much time will have passed that he will already be married to her and have several kids, some of whom may have inherited her disorder. Finally, a fifth reason is that therapists may fear that, with the social stigma associated with BPD, having it in one's medical records may foreclose future job opportunities.

It therefore is critically important that Nons not wait around for a clinical diagnosis to occur. In the unlikely event that their mate seeks therapy, it is highly unlikely the Nons will be told the diagnosis. Indeed, if my experiences are any guide, it is unlikely that the BPDer herself will hear the term "BPD" from most therapists.

With codependent Nons like me, it is important to persuade us that we are fully capable of understanding the nine BPD traits, which all of us have to some degree and thus can easily learn to identify. One reason is that, for the Nons' own immediate safety, the first thing they need to learn are the red flags. Moreover, if they don't learn to identify the traits, they are at risk of leaving or divorcing a BPDer and then running into the arms of another woman just like her.

Also, after Nons have some understanding of BPD traits, they are far more receptive to suggestions that they read about their real problem, their own codependency -- the glue holding the toxic relationship together. That realization empowers them to walk away from a toxic relationship that can be just as hurtful to the BPDer as to the codependent Non. Of course, when children are involved, the Non should consider walking away only if he first decides it is in the best interests of the children.

I therefore strongly object to the notion that Nons should stop trying to identify a strong pattern of BPD traits and leave that task to the professionals. As I explained, that would be a disastrous course of action for most Nons. And it could be equally disastrous for the many BPDers who end up marrying "enablers," i.e., the codependent people like me.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

UPTOWN - I haven't figured out how to quote your text as you have but here goes:

She has never mentioned any physical child abuse - but her Mother was/is a wingnut and was emotionally turbulent with her children and all her life so that may have played a role in her development. They had, and still do have issues.

Your right about the friends. She's very social and says she doesn't like being around people she doesn't know - however excels in that environment. Occassionally someone will wrong her at work and she'll implode but she almost lost her job the last time and it hasn't happened again. Which again, is why consequence does seem to work with her but from what I have read shouldn't with a full blown BPD

A lot of what you said seems to ring true. However I would have to say if she is, she is an EXTREMELY high functioning. And some times she will surprise me and act differently. Also, I find I am now conditioned to expect certain behavior from her and almost perpetuate it by my distain/annoyance and comments. I don't walk on eggshells anymore. I won't. I call it like I see it. I take her to task. From what I have read this should be the perfect recipe for the perfect storm. However by and large it seems to be helping. Although we do and probably always will have periodic storms.

Where she seems quite a bit different is in the upswing. I've read they will split, attack you like the devil and then the fear of abandonment kicks in and they will be sweet and try and lure you back. She doesn't do that. She'll stay cold and warm up VERY gradually. Never feels responsible and never tries to be extra nice or "make it up to me".

I'm not discounting your comments as I see a lot of her in them - just pointing out an example of where she differs from them.

She is good with the kids other than she expects so much from them - and has short patience and bad temper (yelling) but is also very loving with them.

My son is solid, reasonable, happy, logical, and loving.

My daughter is a firecracker - EXTREMELY loving, but also has EXTREME tantrums (sound familiar?) She is a work in progress but the two year old tempers definately haven't ended and she is 6.

She has always been this way, and my son has always been the way he is. I can't say there environement was any different from each other so I would definately say it's an inherited trait rather than environnmental.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

It is good that you are writing these tings out. 

There are red flags, although you are scratching the surface, several things are still undone.



eagleclaw said:


> I have been reading here and trying to improve the dynamics of my relationship for some time. I have made some of the same mistakes of trying to hard to fix things and becoming the (nice guy) who is taking way to much responsibility and putting in way to much effort into the relationship and getting little in return.
> 
> I have had all the same problems, little help around the house, bearing to much of the burden of chores, low sex - sex life, little effort deployed by wife in sex life when were being intimate, lack of respect from wife etc.
> 
> ...


This changing behavior, exactly as many good men are in the habit of doing. Since you are say you are familiar and a lurker, I will not already type what you already know.



> I should point out that my wife has no friends, because at some point they always have a falling out because eventually it would seem everyone "wrongs" her and she goes postal on them effectively ending the friendship. All her family are hot heads and have huge family pow wow's (fights) that you couldn't even imaging unless you saw one. It's been a few years since the last one but it's a repeating process. And strangly enough these are really her only "friends". Her only defense in any argument is an over the top, completely eggagerated offense. Attack, attack, attack. Me and brother in laws often say that these women are different in that we all argue to address a problem, or fix an issue, or defend a position - where these girls argue simply to hurt and to win. Based on the things they do and say.


These family arguments, are they as physical or instead yelling? Also is there any consistent theme?



> Over the years she has toned it down some, but when she really gets going she says things she won't remember saying - and she'll accuse me of saying things that I never said. It's almost like she combusts to the point of losing track of reality and then creates her own.
> 
> Moving along.........
> 
> So I have started doing less, holding the wife accountable, being more ****y (which has always been a natural thing for me so I'm kinda reverting back to myself) trying to be more upbeat and fun, going out on my own, doing what I want within reason regardless, etc.


Excellent.



> All in all it has been working fairly well. My wife is a firecracker and has a TERRIBLE temper. She also had a screwed up upbringing and brings baggage with her.


This screwed up upbringing is a clue and would be useful to know in general the nature of abuse and more importantly, what she says or feels about these things today, especially if she is projecting responsibility to herself or to you.



> The problem is she is constantly testing me, or saying stupid disrespectful comments that I can't ignore. I try to repond calm and cool but when it's happening often it gets harder and harder to not get riled up. Also, she will often keep ramping up her assault if I stay cool and accuse me of jumping down her throat at every little thing because I have calmly expressed displeasure at her either disrespecting me or crossing a boundry. It's like she wants the fight.


So as reading this forum already, you already know that a woman will test her man, even in the best marriage to the worst marriage, a woman will test her man.

So we come to this, if the action is proper, the reaction is not, then the problem is the foundation laid.

In this case, your woman is not content with you merely being calm or avoiding her test, so if this relationship is to be repaired then you yourself will need to ratchet up your dominance to the point that yes, she knows what it means that your boundries are crossed, and that is in her mind to feel without a doubt that either you will be respected or she will lose you.



> So that's problem one, how does one keep himself calm after relentless baiting and pushing of buttons.


A battle of wills, and in this case also a battle of wits. 

Find out what she is really wanting you to battle, the source of her resentment to you.

The clues maybe in your comments about her upbringing.

Without knowing details, can assume some physical abuse or sexual abuse leading to the predictable emotional scars. If so, in your own action and behavior, yes, some rather startling action may be required that can be addressed in other posts if necessary.



> Problem two: She puts no effort into our sex life. It has been better as in if I initiate she is more responsive - but she never puts the effort in. Most recently I was trying to make her more into it, and enjoy it more. I made it in my head about her and gave her lots of oral and she most often would come two or three times to my once. Great for her. But after a few months off that I'm wanting her to experiment and put the same effort in for me. I have told her that. She has either said the what she does or has been doing is never enough for me. Or that she is not sexually outgoing like me. Well that's convienent.


No, do not make it about her, such a woman behaving as this. 

Instead just this, make sex radically about yourself, and start to direct and communiate to her what pleases you, sometimes calm and direct, other times aggresive and physical, even to the point of what I am not comfortable typing out on this board. You will know, if you follow her reactions, how far to go. But in this absolutely be bold.

Over time in your leadership and dominance of the sexual realtions as you are attentive to her response then she will even herself become creative and free to explore herself.

Often this radical sexual intimacy will open communication to the other areas of the relationshp, for example, in sexual dominance the woman is often very receptive to the direction of her man, and this feeling will absolutley spill over into the world outside the bedroom, often without fail for such a man that is this bold and taken her to this blissful place sexually her respect and desire to please is feeling very strongly in her. A woman that is feeling respect for her man is not feeling to mistreat such a man. 

Again for this reason, where there is sexual attraction, there is not resentment.



> So we have a huge fight recently (about something entirely different). I did not try and fix it because she was out of line. She stayed mad and cold for a couple of weeks. She kept escalating and being a *****, and baiting me over the course of the couple weeks. I called her out each time and didn't let her get away with anything. I held my ground until she realized this approach wasn't going to work as I wasn't going to give in just to make peace and get laid. Not that hard because when she's being like this there is NOTHING attractive about her. By and large I didn't fly off the handle during these just said my piece and she would get loud and then we wouldn't talk for a couple of days. Eventually, she came to me and wanted to talk. She didn't apologize really but accepted that things needed to change. I told her what I wanted from her (excluding sexually cause it wasn't the time or part of the equation) and she me.


Even though you respond with calmness and walk away from the conflict, this is still very much you are following your woman's leadership, waiting for her to do this or that.

Instead, work to ways to have it be yourself in leadership, to set timetable for example, to calmly discuss and resolve some issue, rather than to wait for your woman to feel sorry for you enough to want to talk (although not your intention, tis is the communcation of your behavior).



> A tense couple of days later we are getting along better but no sex life. So like some of the advice I have read, I have not been saying ILY unless she has, I have only offered a couple of hugs on my own otherwise only when she has, and I have made no effort to be intimate with her waiting for her to put some effort in (as before the argument I was already annoyed about this and had decided until she "treats" me in some way I was done doing for her)


Again, do not wait for your woman's leadership. Behave in your own happiness and leadership, yes even to the point of expressing your desire and requirements for intimacy. See how she responds to your radical leadership.

ILY, and even other things, such as being the one to end conversations or hang up the phone first, a million little ways to express your leadership and dominance. She will notice and feel these things.



> So it would appear any progress I had been making is gone. Things have gone from cold to luke warm. She knows my sexual appetite and the effort I had put in for her but has done nothing about it.


Again, stop waiting for her leadership. You need to keep this ball in your court.



> Any thoughts on how to continue? I obviously need to tweak come changes. I'm starting to get to the point of accepting my wife has personality issues and resigning that I should just move on to something with at least the "opportunity" to succeed. I'm not afraid of leaving, and have no doubt I could find happiness elsewhere - however my first choice is to make US work. Both for us and for the kids. I do love her, but the feeling of being IN love is waning. I'm simply not prepared to do all the changing, and all the work myself. That is not an option.


The initiave and work is yours to do. This is absolute in the best or worst marriages. Just be sure to see the reactions and listen to her feelings, and for many women it is effective to even word conversations around her feelings. Not "how was your day", but instead, "how are you feeling?" This avoids cloudiness and often gets to the root, what is important to you the man to see what your woman is desiring from you, but is often unwilling to say.



> And BTW - I know I'm going to get advice to do MC. We have, and the counciller was very good. And by and large she sided with me and told my wife she needed to change in a lot of areas. She didn't like that and isn't a fan of going back. That said, it's very expensive and she WILL go back but doesn't take much from it. Me changing how I interact with her makes the most change.


Exactly.


These things you are starting are mostly correct, but in all areas, especially sexual, do not wait for your woman's leadership.

Instead be bold, take leadership yourself, and firmly and confidently set your own tone in the relationship and see by your woman's reactions what she is needing from you.

This is the start.


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

*not an Indian*

Uptown,

I don't know about Eagleclaw, I'm not an Indian, though if the book of Mormon is right, some of my long lost relatives might be - no disrespect intended.

I'm the grandchild of immigrants from Bessarabia, Poland, and the Ukraine, a Jew of the diaspora, the dream my great grandparents, grandparents and parents hoped for and made possible by enormous sacrifices.

About a decade ago I was invited by a friend to spend a sunset cruise aboard the Forbes yacht. This beautiful boat had hosted presidents, kings, emperors, queens, and very expensive mistresses, along with potential advertisers in Forbes magazine, peons like my friend.

As we sailed past the Statue of Liberty, I looked at and started to cry with joy, within 100 years my great grandparents and grandparents, traveling in steerage, knowing perhaps two words of English had passed her, hoping for a better future for them, their children, etc. I am the product of the dream, fortunate beyond measure.

My eyes are filled with tears, my heart filled with joy.

Mark


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

eagleclaw said:


> I think because I have backed off and now refuse to bear all the workload at home etc (and make her do her share and contribute) she thinks I am trying a lot less! Although sexually, she has commented about the effort I have put in and how it has helped us - although that hasn't really made her attempt to return the favour!
> 
> You make very good points - and your right - I carry a lot of resentment and so does she. However, I have forced myself to let go of resentment and start fresh several times through this marriage only to end up back here via lack of change on her part. And the problem I have with leaving an argument when it get's loud is she will keep pestering me until I resume. Or her other tactic is every interaction for the next week will be her oppertunity to try and bait me into another argument because of her pent up "resentment".


Letting resentment go is harder than it seems. Maybe you have, maybe you haven't. Have you laid out your resentment to the source? If not, have you really let it go? 



> Unfortunately she is much better than me at this. I can't stay mad very long. She can stay mad for a week. I simply don't enjoy living that way and it's not possible for me to stay in an unpleasant mood for very long. She's a master at it.


Resentment an lack of respect are fuel for staying mad for long periods of time.

When she is chronically mad, look for teh ways to increase respect.



> It's wierd, because she is very feministic in so far as she hates gender roles and has the attitude that no man is going to tell her this or that etc..... (and I'm not like that anyways) but if I adopt a more dominant forceful role and really hold her to task things seem to go better.


In your situation if you are unwilling to tell her this or that then your marriage will not get better.

For the feminist ideas, do not even consider them and forget everything you think you believe of them. Actions speak louder than words, and no more truth than in your very own marriage.



> The problem I have is when she keeps pushing boundries - and I calmly try defend them in no uncertain terms but by not yelling etc - she doesn't stop. I guess I need more examples on how to be assertive without setting a bad example. Keeping my cool so to speak.


Push your own boundries.

Stop trying to logically defend your position, instead save your words and spend your time and energy directing your own boundries and desires from her and the relationship.





> She does wierd things like get in my face, block my path, try and charge through me. Stupid things like she's trying to intimidate me which I laugh off as it's not intimidating as I'm 6'4 230 pounds. I would never touch her but it goes to show how much she tries to get me going.


I will only say this, are you willing and able to pull down her pants and underwear and spank her bare behind the next time she wants to get physical in this way? 

If so your solution is much closer than you think.

If not, you have a long road.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

eagleclaw said:


> One more thing - you have mentioned you changed the dynamic in your relationship. Once thing I have never seen is, once you started employing these changes, how long would you say it took for things to come around? Are we talking weeks, months?
> 
> Thanks again.


Days. Hours. Immediate.

These things that change these dynamics, they are powerful and real.


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

*Wife's wealthy parents - similarities ?*

Eagleclaw,

My BPD ex-wife had relatively old when she was born (40+ or so) wealthy parents who had become successful on the basis of good brains and hard work. They were also very remote, controlling, and restrictive. 

It wasn't until our son, the first grandchild, was born, that my exFIL demonstrated affection for a kid, he was crazy, my ex regretted she and her siblings had never seen him so happy.

Despite considerable assets, living in a mansion in Fairfield, CT, as a child my ex was never allowed to buy clothes that were "in", her mom was the most restrained woman I've ever met, her father used his brains and money as weapons. He was a brilliant graduate of Brown and Harvard Law, invested wisely in real estate, treated his employees and contractors very well according to a fellow I'm now using as a handyman, but both parents were very cool to their children.

My ex's younger brother is manic-depressive, used drugs, and were it not for family connections and money would have gone to jail more than once. The older brother, also Brown and Harvard Law is a self made multi-millionaire.

Any similarities?

Mark



eagleclaw said:


> <quote> test </quote>
> 
> MEM
> 
> ...


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

BigBadWolf said:


> > These family arguments, are they as physical or instead yelling? Also is there any consistent theme?
> 
> 
> Mostly yelling and threatening - not physical but apparantly has been in the past. I have never seen it.
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> I'm not sure I really know what you mean turnera, I suppose if she loves fighting and being at odds with each other then I guess you might be right. IF that's the case, then I'm out. Cause I don't want to live with a person like that. I hope your wrong about that.
> 
> As far as the phychologist suggestion, she would never go along with that. Different step from going to a MC.
> 
> ...


 I forgot to mention that the woman I described...she was diagnosed as BPD and refuses to take medicine for it. She is exactly as Uptown describes.

And the ONLY person to whom she will not talk is me. Because I call her out on her outrageous behavior and, like that 4 year old, she hides from someone who will do that. 

Learn to not fall for her antics.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> UPTOWN - I haven't figured out how to quote your text as you have but here goes:
> 
> She has never mentioned any physical child abuse - but her Mother was/is a wingnut and was emotionally turbulent with her children and all her life so that may have played a role in her development. They had, and still do have issues.
> 
> ...


ec, use the quote button to quote the entire post or just go in and delete what you don't want to include. Or else use brackets - [ - and - ] - instead of arrows to use quotes.


> Where she seems quite a bit different is in the upswing. I've read they will split, attack you like the devil and then the fear of abandonment kicks in and they will be sweet and try and lure you back. She doesn't do that. She'll stay cold and warm up VERY gradually. Never feels responsible and never tries to be extra nice or "make it up to me".


 Or copy and paste text and then use the little bubble icon that says wrap quotes.

The upswing...another possibility is toxic shame. Those people - traumatized in childhood - feel utterly worthless and spend their whole lives trying to hide that fact from everyone - don't want anyone to realize they are worthless. So, if called out, they'll move mountains before they apologize or admit a fault. Great book on that is _Healing The Shame That Binds You_.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

BigBadWolf said:


> > In this case, your woman is not content with you merely being calm or avoiding her test, so if this relationship is to be repaired then you yourself will need to ratchet up your dominance to the point that yes, she knows what it means that your boundries are crossed, and that is in her mind to feel without a doubt that either you will be respected or she will lose you.
> 
> 
> I agree, but how do I go about doing that while still acting like an adult. Particularily since there are kids around.





BigBadWolf said:


> > Letting resentment go is harder than it seems. Maybe you have, maybe you haven't. Have you laid out your resentment to the source? If not, have you really let it go?
> 
> 
> I have told her what I resent. And I believe at times I have let it go. However your right, when things get bad again, my new resentments do build on the old. I guess what I should have said is I bury them for a period of time
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What about a weekly hour-long discussion of your marriage? With a talking stick?


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Forgot to mention - No I am not an Indian. I am about as caucasian as they come. As is she and the family.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

What is talking stick? LOL - Are you talking about an actual but whacking stick? LOL. Don't think that's me.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

Word of caution: I'd be careful not to diagnose your wife on this site. I've fallen into that trap of trying to make sense of behavior and desperately casting around for an explanation. Mental health dignosis should be left to professionals.


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

If you don't think she is BPD, do some research on High Conflict Personality (Disorder).


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

seeking_sanity - Thanks for that. I have waffled on the idea for a long time. I agree with you. She might be, she might not be. She definately shares a lot of attributes in the description.

However, in the end of the day it doesn't really matter. That diagnoses isn't really treatable, and is what it is.

So either I can find a way to help develop her and I to a point that we can be happy together, or I can't.

Diagnoses aside, that really is all it boils down to. Although knowledge is key, and the knowing that I could be dealing with bpd will sit in the back of my head....hopefully that gives me more tools and more knowledge to work with.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

High Conflict Personality Disorder.... never heard of it but a very quick, read of some info on it sure sounds like my wife! Thanks for the tip Susan, I'll do some more research.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

EC,
You need to have a couple weeks in a row where you do not lose control and say anything you would NOT say when calm. Think of this as an ongoing battle where you are guaranteed to lose if you get angry - because you are. You can give her a "you are insane" smile and tell her "we can resume this when you are able to be constructive". And if need be walk away. If she follows you - go in a room and close the door. 

AFTER you demonstrate that level of self control, the next time she is being "crazy" and trying to push your buttons just start laughing at her and say "I am not going to put up with this, and frankly no other successful guy is either. You need to come to your senses or figure out how you are going to pay your bills without me" and then don't say anything else - just let that sit there and let her decide.




eagleclaw said:


> High Conflict Personality Disorder.... never heard of it but a very quick, read of some info on it sure sounds like my wife! Thanks for the tip Susan, I'll do some more research.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Thanks MEM. Good advice. I'll try that. 

The only thing I would point out is that if she is staying and playing nice only to have her bills paid, I would rather she left.

Also what would you do on the sexual front. Same as BigBadWolf and and try and dictate my own happiness, or more of benevolence towards it based on her behavior? Maybe I was off base, but I was kinda trying to make her think if she is acting like this she in unattractive and turning me off. (Truth be told, generally speaking a horse traquilizer couldn't turn me off) but as I get older, it's definately getting easier.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> What is talking stick? LOL - Are you talking about an actual but whacking stick? LOL. Don't think that's me.


A talking stick is a symbolic...something... that people use when talking and trying to actually get somewhere with the conversation. Meaning, when YOU hold the stick (or feather, or stuffed animal, whatever), YOU get to talk, uninterrupted, for your 5 minutes or until you're done; then you hand the stick over to the other person and they get to respond. Back and forth, until you cover the subject. The goal is to let each person talk uninterrupted, which is how fights start. And it teaches you to really listen, as you're not busy coming up with a comeback. But both people have to agree to it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You could try getting this book: Amazon.com: 52 Invitations to Grrreat Sex (9780962962899): Laura Corn: Books

Maybe she'd respond to something like this. It's a great book.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

True confession time. My W is a bit of a tigress - likes some level of conflict/combat. Can be biatchy and unreasonable. BUT she is:
- Fun, and really funny
- Playful and adventurous
- She apologizes when she is wrong
- She has stayed fit/hot
- She fuvks me senseless as frequently as I want

I guess the thing is, while difficult she is also great and she is REALLY into me so she makes the effort to keep me happy. 

That said I have learned how to be a great partner to her - so a lot of why she is into me is because I am very good at being the partner she wants. 

The couple times - hey this is over a 21 year relationship so I only do this when sorely provoked - the couple times she has threatened to use sex as a total weapon via shutting off access I have immediately and calmly told her that I am fine with getting a GF if she is no longer attracted to me. 

Like you - I have a good job, am very fit and I like to think I am fun to be around. Funny - sex as a weapon goes in both directions. I have never cheated - but my view is you can't claim ownership to equipment that you don't use. 







eagleclaw said:


> Thanks MEM. Good advice. I'll try that.
> 
> The only thing I would point out is that if she is staying and playing nice only to have her bills paid, I would rather she left.
> 
> Also what would you do on the sexual front. Same as BigBadWolf and and try and dictate my own happiness, or more of benevolence towards it based on her behavior? Maybe I was off base, but I was kinda trying to make her think if she is acting like this she in unattractive and turning me off. (Truth be told, generally speaking a horse traquilizer couldn't turn me off) but as I get older, it's definately getting easier.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

:smthumbup: Now that's funny and very well put. I'll use that. It's kinda funny - she at times makes comments that she thinks I am cheating etc which I am not - but have had chances. The funny part is with her temper if she really thought that I think she would be irate - so my guess it's just a distraction or deflection strategy.

The other part that's hard as I try to reduce what I do and leave more for her is:

I work 6 - 2 so I can pick the kids up after work. She works 3 days a week until 6 and two days late - 7 or 8 (bank hours).

So I pick kids up, get homework duty, get dinner duty, and then get kids xtra cirricular duty sports etc. I have pulled back everywhere I can but from two till 6 I am the one home so I get the work. If I pull back there only the kids suffer.

So she gets home at 6 or 7 makes kids lunches and maybe, maybe might fold laundry or something for 1/2 hour. If anything else comes up in the evening I generally leave it for her. This is not particularily fair in my books - but I don't see the solutions simply due to scheduling. I have pulled back what I will do and leave messes for her - particular her messes, and am only doing what NEEDS to be done etc but I still end up with the brunt of it. 
Summary - I work for 8 hours, then work at home another 5.

She works for 8 hours, then maybe puts in a hour in the evening.


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## teresap989 (Sep 22, 2010)

My experience with the male/female dynamic is this. If you actually ARE a good male partner, the most likely path to destruction with an aggressive female partner is to allow them to lose respect for you over a protracted period of time. And for uber-aggressive folks - the best therapy is shock therapy. 





__________________
watch free movies online


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I have posted that statement "for uber-aggressive folks - the best therapy is shock therapy" verbatim. 100 percent agree. 

But not yelling, screaming breaking ****. Nope. The ULTIMATE shock is to calmly threaten to end it - and if they don't back down - start the process of separation / divorce. But this ONLY works if you are a good partner. If you are a jerk she lets you leave.



teresap989 said:


> My experience with the male/female dynamic is this. If you actually ARE a good male partner, the most likely path to destruction with an aggressive female partner is to allow them to lose respect for you over a protracted period of time. And for uber-aggressive folks - the best therapy is shock therapy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

An example of our current dynamic as occurred last night.

I asked her to freeze a few meals so that on some of the nights when I'm running kids etc while she is working dinner would be easier and quicker. She said sure WE could do it together on Sunday. I camly said that by responding to a request for help, by asking me to help her help me, she really isn't helping me. This is her oppertunity to contribute.

She blew a gasket - and I said I'm not asking you to cook the entire week of meals in advance as your sister does. It just gives me some options. She blew another gasket because I am comparing her to her sister - another no no. Part of her rant included if I was man enough I would make enough money that she could be home to do all those things instead of working full time. I told her that comment was totally unacceptable and she said it in spite rather than trying be contructive. (I make quite good money, a good bit above average) I also told her I wanted nothing more to do with her until she apologized. She said she wouldn't. I said ultimately then if that's the type of person she is I will end up filing without an apology. She said to do whatever I have to do.

I left for a few hours came back and the argument continued. (I brought it up again). Several times through the argument I told her to stop yelling, or interupting me or the converstation would end. She compared my comment to her comment and said if I don't owe her an apology she doesn't owe me one. Eventually she apologized for me "taking it that way" but not for saying it. I said that was not a sincere apology for doing it.

Eventually, like an idiot I decided to extend an olive branch and told her that "is it abundandly clear that these comments are not acceptable to each other". She agreed. So I said fine then let's move on. She took this as a sign of weakness and tried to immediately attack and blame all on me. This when I finally lost my temper and called her right out for it. Told her that I give an inch and she sees it as an oppertunity to attack. It got heated and she said she needed to stop before she completely came unglued on me. I said fine, and went and slept with my son.

Things right now are about as bad as they ever have been. My next move? Send her separation papers? I'm out of patience, feel really bad for my kids, and really think she is a ****ing headcase.

It's obvious now the olive branch was a mistake. As was losing my cool. I'm not sure anyone could keep a level head dealing with that though.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You're doing well! Don't beat yourself up - you're already trying to use the advice, and you're seeing results!

There's a good book called Boundaries in Marriage you might want to read to see examples of how to stand up for yourself, and practice them, before you go ahead and file. Or do some research on BPD or other issues and see if you can match her issues.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Thanks for that. Even if I can match her issues, she would never accept that and get help so I don't know how much it would help me. But I am going to keep doing what I'm doing. She's not getting away with this anymore, even if it undoes us.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> So like some of the advice I have read, I have not been saying ILY unless she has, I have only offered a couple of hugs on my own otherwise only when she has,


People really play this game? Honestly it sounds like

- you don't like or respect your wife
- you are trying to win as badly as she is

Counseling?


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

I understand your view of this. I felt the same for years. But giving love freely for years and getting the short end of the stick endlessly as well as a lack of respect wears on you.

Eventually, you realize that if you keep doing everything the same you will get the same result. So time to try something different. Even her own family has pointed out how much I have done for her and how lucky she is. Problem is, she doesn't see it. And I expect more out of a wife - much more.

I tried giving more of myself, that failed. Now it's her turn to try giving more. She hasn't tried that approach yet.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> Thanks for that. Even if I can match her issues, she would never accept that and get help so I don't know how much it would help me. But I am going to keep doing what I'm doing. She's not getting away with this anymore, even if it undoes us.


 No, I meant so that you could learn what she does and WHY she does it, and also learn ways to circumvent the ways in which she tries to control the situation - to give you back more control over your life, should you stay married.

Knowledge is power.


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

/


MEM11363 said:


> And for uber-aggressive folks - the best therapy is shock therapy.


Ummmm.... should I take this at face value?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The comment was not directed at you TL. And - I didn't actually mean to imply electric voltage. 

But his dynamic is that she is cool with 3 weeks of frozen silence. You might say he is just as stubborn - he sounds convinced he is giving a lot more and getting a lot less love. That dynamic is toxic. 



TeaLeaves4 said:


> /
> 
> Ummmm.... should I take this at face value?


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> The comment was not directed at you TL. And - I didn't actually mean to imply electric voltage.
> 
> But his dynamic is that she is cool with 3 weeks of frozen silence. You might say he is just as stubborn - he sounds convinced he is giving a lot more and getting a lot less love. That dynamic is toxic.


I wouldn't deny I can be stubborn. However, I generally am always the one that tries to fix things, smooth things over, and move on. I guess historically I have "given in" first to obtain peace and harmony in our house. And your right, it is absolutely toxic. Which is why I want to change things, hopefully for the better.


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## russ101 (Jan 8, 2010)

Your situation sound almost identical to mine. If I didn't know any better I would have thought that I wrote it (except for the crazy family part). I work full time and pay 95% of the bills, she works part time and make about 40% of what I make. She believes that it is the mans responsibility to pay the bills and that her money is her money to spend as she pleases, even though I do at least 80% of the housework as well. Sex with my wife is about the same as you descibe with the exception that she does not give oral any more, and she will not kiss me any more. Sex is always on her terms and only a couple of times a month, never lasting for more that 10 minutes. My wife and I have several issues I know, and would probably not be together anymore if it weren't for our children. She does have good qualities though, I guess I am partly to blame as well. This is the way she was raised, her mother did little around the house and worked and all her money was hers, so my wife is expecting the same. I have recently tried a coping mechinism when she starts talking badly to me. I say to her: I am not going to dicuss this with you until you start treating me respectfully. Then I leave the room and will not talk to her. It does get hard though to do this. I am often tempted to "sink to her level" and do the same back to her. I have been guilty of it in the past, and sometimes I still revert back to it, but for the most part, this stratagy makes me feel better. Hopefully, you and your wife do not have as many issues as we do (still it is a very similar situation).


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Very good advice. People treat us the way we teach them to.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

It does sound similar. Sex is short and sweet for her too. I generally outlast her. Oral dropped off here too, until I made oral for her really good and then stopped doing it until she reciprocated. She loves oral, so I guess she now see's it as the price of admission for her own.

My wifes mother is like yours, doesn't do much, not terribly nice. had everything given to her on a silver platter and as a result is the most self centered, etc.

Same kind of pattern. We don't kiss as often either other than pecks.

A funny thing happened to us awhile ago though. In the middle of her being lazy sexually, and not giving as well as receiving I got really frustrated. To the point that I wasn't getting aroused anymore. Couldn't get it up so to speak. To much anger and resentment. This was in the mist of when she had asked me to hurry up one time, acted annoyed to be having sex right in the middle of sex etc. 

So I told her her actions were turning me off. Literally and physically. I have always a had a huge sex drive and couldn't be turned off so she really took it to heart. She got angry at first, blamed me for cheating etc which added to my stress and anxiety (which I have never had any issues with) and worry and I started having ED problems.

This lessonned my sex drive in a big way. And a funny thing happened. I would turn her down. If she gave me attitude or put no effort in I would say, "your hearts not in it" or "your actions turned me off or something and I would stop. In fact, if she wasn't acting in a sexy, hot way indicative of interest and in an appropriate sexual manner I would stop. Even if I was horny as well.

The less interest I showed, and the more I turned away the more effort she started putting in. It was like she had to prove she was sexy. That's when Oral started up again, and when the negative physical responses stopped.

I have new issues to deal with now with her, but sexually - things were just starting to change. If we can get back to that I'm hoping to build on that. Right now I'm showing absolutely no interest in that again because of her recent actions. Maybe that story can help you a bit.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Heres the question of the day though. In our last conversation she was out of line and refused to apologize.

So now my interaction with her are pleasant although somewhat cool. I feel she still needs to apologize.

She is trying to be social, and it is probably within my power to get things rolling again in a better direction - but I'm not sure I should.

I mean I would like to, but I really feel she again said and did things that were unreasonable, mean spirited and disrespectul. All I would like is an apology but that seems impossible for her. So do I continue to hold out forever until an apology is forthcoming or do I be the bigger man and move on. I have been the bigger man in the past, only to get more of the same without apologies which is the cycle I am trying to break. 

Should I move up more slowly to requiring changes from her and demanding she take credit for her mistakes and apologize for them when they occur - or start off easier and get more sternful gradually?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I've been waiting for apologies for 30 years, and caving in when I didn't get them. All it did was teach my husband that he was always right and I was always wrong. 

I would just simply be a roommate until she apologizes. And EXPLAIN to her why you are doing it - that you can't live like this any more. She almost did it once, and you caved. So she IS capable. You just have to prove to her you're not going to cave again.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Thanks turnera. I think your right. My gut told me what I was doing was right also. I just don't like living like this. I like to get along and enjoy life but I think I have to view this as short term pain for long term gain.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I kind of think of it as the learning she SHOULD have endured as a child like the rest of us got, but obviously never got. Lucky you!


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

eagleclaw said:


> Should I move up more slowly to requiring changes from her and demanding she take credit for her mistakes and apologize for them when they occur - or start off easier and get more sternful gradually?


The most powerful move on your part is to behave in YOUR own leadership and direction, and call your woman on her mistakes calmly and confidently when they occur when proper, regardless of an apology or not. 

The behavior and actions are what matter, the words are mostly illusion.

The good man will do well to act as if you are not a care in the world if your woman has the power over you with certain words, in this case whether she apologizes or not. 

For to give her power to affect you with an apology or not, you are seeing she is also going to leverage this to her favor if you let her.

Do not draw small lines in the sand needing words or apologies. Better to draw bold lines of action and behavior, call it your own boundries if you like, and on these be absolute that the consequences are real.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

I understand what your saying BBF - but I'm not sure how to put it into action.

Last night we talked about it again. She tried to deflect to other topics, change the topic even the change the events of what she said. I kept bringing her back, wouldn't change the topic and didn't let her change the events that actually transpired. I didn't yell, and actually for the first time she didn't really either.

She kind of alternated between saying she already apologized (which she didn't - she apologized for how I interpreted it) to saying she won't apologize. - and I said that's fine but if you don't even have enough respect in this marriage to take credit for your actions and words when they are inappropriate - particularily when you've had a couple days to calm down and reflect - then there clearly isn't enough respect in this marriage to move on.

She told me numerous times to do what I had to do - I calmly ended the conversation as there was nothing left to talk about. A little while later she went to her sisters house I suspect to vent.

If I understand you correctly your telling me to let it go now and don't worry about getting an apology? Sounds like I"m caving. I don't feel I'm asking much. It's not like I'm asking her to do much of anything to make it up to me other than to admit and and act remorsefull. So in this situation how do I put your last paragraph into action?


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