# Long hard road...looking for hope



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

it is a very long story to tell...I will try to condense.

I had an affair.
The circumstances of it make it all the worse of an action.
I had been married 8 years. Had 2 kids. Started seeing another woman. Then found out my wife was pregnant. Didn't end the affair. It continued the duration of the pregnancy. No sex but quite emotional and kissing. Rationalized it by pointing to my wife's behavior. Controlling. Manipulative. Angry. 

She found out when the OW's H pulled up to the house. She was outside with our then 2yo son. The affair ended in earnest a few days before he came.

Like she does with most things...she attacked the problem head-on. We immediately went to marriage counseling after the baby was born. Neither of us ever left the house. She allowed me in the room for the birth. The day after the birth, we were lying in the hospital bed together. She asked if everything was going to be ok. I said I didn't know. This hurt her. She still brings it up 2.5 years later. 

Lots of late night talks. More her yelling than talks. I had told her the ow and i only kissed once. that was a lie. she pressed me on the issue, i relented and explained it had been multiple times. I was sitting with our new baby on my lap when this happened. She took him from my arms and told me i didn't deserve him. That i may have been the sperm donor but i was no father.

She and the OW H stayed in touch. He...well he understandably was very angry with me. He told my w things that weren't true...said he had "seen" messages that talked about me and his wife having sex. My wife of course believed him but he couldn't produce any proof (bc there was no sex). 

My wife yelled a lot...occasionally got physical with me. Night after night. I withdrew emotionally. Counseling didn't help. Counselor suggested antidepressants for my wife. She refused...said she wasn't the one who had done anything so why should she be the one on meds?

2.5 years later, nothing has ever gotten better. I feel abused. I can point to many, many real events of abuse. I don't know how to reconcile them given the hurt i gave my wife.

What she has said repeatedly that she needs to heal are kind words, to be taken on dates, and for me to be transparent.

I have balked at some of the requests for transparency. She has always had full control of finances. I am the only one working. Checks are direct deposit. All receipts go into the computer. I might have a few dollars in my pocket at any given time...that i spend on miscellany. She wanted to know where every penny went. I told her i didnt think it was reasonable to account for every single penny of cash (we are talking .85 for a soda). Strike 34 of 1000. She wanted me to track the mileage on my car. I felt controlled. I no longer went anywhere but work and home. She wrote down my mileage at some point and 10 days later checked it again and felt like i had gone 100 miles further than i should. I couldn't explain where that was driven. (strike 57) All the while every night is up until 2am listening to the same recording of how i am the devil who destroyed her, killed her husband, abandoned her and her children (never spent the night out of the house btw), she's yelling and crying. I'm apologizing and being brushed off (ok...she can do what she wants...i just don't understand the thinking). 

The first christmas after (8 months after), she throws our wedding portrait out the back window (2nd story) in front of the kids. Starts telling them about the affair. All hell breaks loose. It already had...but they didn't know why. All this time, she had been breaking stuff, throwing stuff at me. yelling. Feb., I moved to a different bedroom at her insistance. she burns our marraige certificate in front of me and the kids. later makes an art project out of it, framing a picture of the OW she had printed off of FB. 

All this time...when she 'breaks down' she starts hitting herself. Starts talking that she wishes she were dead (qualifying that she would never do that). has bruised herself repeatedly on the thighs and chest...even forhead from headbutting the floor. As recently as a month ago, slapped me full across the face. this past labor day...literally attacked me. left bruises. slapped the phone from my hand when i went to call 911. She is full out abusive now. has been for at least 2 of the last 2.5 years. 

We tried a 2nd counselor. He said she had borderline personality. Tried to refer her to another therapist for herself. She refused and stopped seeing him. 2 labor days ago (not the same as the one above) she attacked me, ripped up the house, scared the life out of the kids, chased me around spitting at me. I had kept going to the counselor. went back after that incident. he suggested a restraining order. i went to a lawyer. he sent me to the court house. I got the papers, started filling them out. Called her. Explained what was going on. She broke down. I asked if she could promise she would stop being physical and stop screaming all the time AND...AND get help. I think she would have agreed to anything. She did agree. She has since reverted 100% back to where she was. And now she resents that i was willing to fill out the paperwork and call her to talk about it when she was sitting waiting to get the kids from school (sitting in her car near 100 other moms). There have literally been 1000 things go bad in the last 2.5 years. 

She says "every day you don't choose me is another rejection". On one hand I understand that. On the other, every day I tell her i love her. Every day, I do things specifically because I think they are what she would want. Every day. Now...I do struggle with the kind words. She was...even before the affair...a very angry person in very big ways. Mean. Very controlling. Part...if not a lot...of that was our relationship. She is obsessively clean. I am chronically messy. she is ALWAYS going, going, going. I like to be still. She is super organized. I fly by the seat of my pants. But somehow before the affair, I always managed to make her feel loved. Now it seems that every thing I do to be loving is either tied to the affair (for her) or not thoughtful enough. it is always MORE. She is 100% in control but 98% disengaged except to express her hurt and anger.

I want to work it out. She doesn't want to share custody but each day elaborates on how she hates me. Yet in her more rational moments, I hear in her words that she WANTS me to fix it. A few keys there....she wants it to be fixed. she wants me to do it pretty much by myself. She is no longer open to counseling. refuses it. 

3.5 weeks ago, she woke me up (I had been sleeping on a mattress in the living room since labor day) and said she couldn't do it anymore. she wanted me out. This was not the first request of this. she had asked repeatedly for me to leave. we are financially strapped. There is no way to pay the mortgage and pay for a place to stay. Further, she refuses to let me spend reasonable time with the kids if i am not IN the house. So...i say if she can agree to a reasonable custody schedule, I will move out...figure out the money somehow. She says "you can see them every other weekend, but even that is too generous if you ask me". I refuse that. Come home that night...she is in the same frame of mind. I hold firm. She packs up the kids and takes them to her parents with her for the night. The kids recognize who gets angry and who remains calm. They side with the person who gets angry so the anger doesn't get directed at them. They all went with her (all 4...including her daughter from a previous marriage). Next morning, she comes back, asks me to reconsider moving out so the kids can have the house. I tell her everyone is welcome. I tell her if she will engage with me in working on the marriage, maybe we can work through the things that are still causing her pain (she says everything to do with me is now pain). I say if she wants to write down any kind of plan...like 'this is just temporary to try to improve the relationship' so it doesn't appear i am abandoning my family...i would do it. she says no. tells me if there is any hope for the relationship at all, i have to move out. So...I have been at her parents now for 3.5 weeks. Seen the kids very little. Tried to talk many times. it always deteriorates into the same "you hurt me, you suck, i don't think you are honest, you don't do anything to make it right, you aren't remorseful". 

I know i am at fault for the affair. I know I am not at fault for her abuse. I am remorseful for the affair. I frankly...don't know how to engage her at all. I have to look to our past or her relationships with others to construct truly kind words.

I am not asking anyone to tell me "you need to let it go". So many people have said that already. 

What I want to know is...what can I do to right the relationship????


----------



## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

what if it can't be fixed?


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

thebadguy said:


> What I want to know is...what can I do to right the relationship????


Nothing. Get that through your head. 

I do feel badly for you.

You sound as if you have been doing for awhile now, maybe not perfectly but thats not the point...

This is her decision to make. Until something changes _in her_, and I mean dramatically... there is nothing you can do.

You want desprately to 'do the right thing'?... Well ironically, The only thing you can do to potentially save this, is exactly what you don't want to do or to hear. Leave. Let it go. The environment the two of you have created is toxic to your children, what this is doing to them can not be undone.


----------



## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

You need to understand that you completely destroyed her world. She trusted you completely and you broke that over and over. When she then needed you to be honest about what you'd done, you lied. Again. 

Transparency isn't too much to ask. You can install a GPS into your car that she can track. You can make sure she has access to all phone, text, email records. You can do these things. Do you? 

As for the money, I don't carry cash anymore at all. I literally either pack a lunch or buy with my debit card so it's all trackable. 

You can also arrange a polygraph. Let her draft the questions (but not show you until you get there) and answer everything in it's entirety.

Read Not Just Friends - get yourself in to counseling. Fix you, see all this helps. It really may not if she's hurt that badly.

As for the kids, it's time to file for separation/divorce so you can get a formal agreement worked out to benefit all of you.


----------



## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

As you describe it, I can appreciate the efforts you are putting in for R. But it sounds like your wife is damaged and needs intensive counseling.

Perhaps you've reached a point where you have to let her go if she's not willing to get help. Yes, your affair may have worsened her condition, but there's nothing you can do about that except to show true remorse, which you apparently have been. Seems however, your mounting resentment of her behavior now even makes that impossible. Do you even still love her?

If you're just trying to make it work for the children, ask yourself if they are better off in this kind of environment. My advice would be to insist on the counseling or else move on with your life. Then lawyer up to get a fair custody agreement.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Was your W like this before your affair?


----------



## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

The ONLY thing you can do is File and hope she comes around. But make no mistake THIS IS ABUSE even if you are a cheater. 

You should file for divorce and custody. Sometimes the only way to save it is to be willing to lose it.

It sounds like you finished breaking an already breaking wife. You made some really poor choices. You may pay for those choices by being a weekend dad. Its a shame. 

Sounds like she needs some serious IC. I would suspect that she had 'trust issues' before you cheated, yes? I recognize this kind of anger(had it when I was very young). People with trust issues also usually have anger issues. Anger is a much easier emotion than pain. It puts that person in a postion of feeling in control when in actuality they feel so utterly out of control. Its a way of being on the offense(anger) as opposed to the defense(pain), Most times this kind of 'broken' doesnt fix w/o counseling. Nothing you do will 'fix' her. As I said, Im sure you knew she had these issues before you chose to cheat on her. You made a bad situation worse IOW. Thats all cheating ever accomplishes, isnt it?

So, what is your plan?


----------



## Foghorn (Sep 10, 2012)

I am sorry, but it sounds like her heart was irretrievably broken when she sensed that you were in love with someone else. It doesn't sound like she will ever recover from that. 

I think you need to file and separate, and your wife needs intensive counseling. It sounds like you could use some counseling yourself.

You two should work on being good co-parents for the kids, not bringing them up in a household where violence is the norm. And it sounds like you two need to move on with your lives.

I am sorry, I know you don't want to hear that. 

What are your feelings for the other woman, at this point?


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Abuse is not tolerable. Your affair along with the TT was also very abusive, maybe you just drove her to the edge given she had previous issues. The past is relevant but it's more relevant to be willing to accept the reality. You marriage is very dysfunctional.
Your wife han been diagnosed as BPD. There's no cure. No amount of remorse is going to fix it. It can be manegable IF she's aware enough of her issues and willingly seek help. It doesn't seem her case, some of the behavior you wrote is bizzare and over the top and she refuses to own it (blameshifting).

Some marriages can't be saved, same shouldn't. I fear it's your case.
Probably the worse is the financial situation. A break would help you both and what's more important, your children. Children are witnessing it, learning it.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Another question. Does your wife drink?


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

Bad guy:

BPD is difficult to diagnose. So the first thing you need to do is find an expert in that area and get a second opinion.

There may be something else going on rather than BPD.

If she does have BPD there are specific treatments for them, but they are not always successful. 

I agree with the other poster that talked about being willing to be transparent. That is a must. why did you refuse, initially. 

The Poly and other password sharing and all other ways of being transparent are worth a try. 

It might work. Try it.

In addition, be cautious about flinging the word abuse around. 

This womans behaviors are possibly and most likely rooted in trauma. Discovering infidelity is traumatic and may cause PTSD. 

Your wife's behavior can be attributed to PTSD, Many war veterans in the early 2000s, were wrongly diagnosed with BPD when in reality they now know they had PTSD.

If she has PTSD there are therapies than can help.


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

How are behaving ILs? Are they aware of thier daughter's behavior? What they think about it?

I'm going probably to be bashed here. Being a BS doesn't make you automatically a good partner nor a good parent. This woman is abusing their childrens behaving like this. It's a fact without any qualifiers. Childrens give sh1t about "causes". Personal responsabiliy is universal, she's not out if it because once was betrayed. From what I know this woman is, as a matter of fact, less fit as parent than WH.
Has been said many times BPDrs love very passionately. They hate also this way. Even more because hate last more. Bunnyboilers are often BPDs.
And what's worse is even he finnaly divorce and move out for good she's unlikely to change so this children are going to keep being abused by her BW mother, main caregiver. She's using them to hurt WH by proxy. She's already making them unwilling participants in the abuse. She's not thinkking in their wellbeing first, which every parent know is a must.
Telling the children are not deserving of his parent's love and care becasue what he did while at the same time actively hurting them.... well it doesn't cut. Not for me. 

Even if diagnose is not accurate or properly given this woman behavior is blatantly wrong. No grey areas. If we are going to make WSs accountable and not making excuses for FOO issues, sex abuse... whatever, the same aplies to BSs.
I feel empathy for her but also for WH and first of all for those kids.


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

Acabado said:


> How are behaving ILs? Are they aware of thier daughter's behavior? What they think about it?
> 
> I'm going probably to be bashed here. Being a BS doesn't make you automatically a good partner nor a good parent. This woman is abusing their childrens behaving like this. It's a fact without any qualifiers. Childrens give sh1t about "causes". Personal responsabiliy is universal, she's not out if it because once was betrayed. From what I know this woman is, as a matter of fact, less fit as parent than WH.
> Has been said many times BPDrs love very passionately. They hate also this way. Even more because hate last more. Bunnyboilers are often BPDs.
> ...


I agree, the children need to be removed. A PTSD diagnoses or a BPD one may help with that. 

If his infidelity caused the PTSD, he needs to help this woman heal, while still protecting the children,


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal (Oct 6, 2012)

thebadguy said:


> What I want to know is...what can I do to right the relationship????


1. Get her help for her BPD. If that's not the diagnosis, it's something severe, that's for sure. And she will need to agree to treatment. Sounds like she's not very willing.

2. Give her 100% truth and 100% transparency. Sounds like you're not very willing.

That said, when you say you don't want to hear "let it go", I feel for you, but unless someone is willing to work on this, what do you have? The memory of a marriage that once worked (if it ever did)?


----------



## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

She believes you lied about just kissing the OW. She BELIEVES your EA was a PA. Here's the key: YOU SAID YOU ARE IMPULSIVE so when it got to the point of intense kissing, it only means ONE thing...it is next to impossible to stop yourself from having SEX. She knows you and she knows that. She wants you to be completely honest with her. It is her rightful decision to stay or leave at that point but she feels YOU OWE her the TRUTH and you are disrespecting her by treating her like an idiot via insisting that she pretends she doesn't know you. Until then, she is staying and abusing you until you tell her the truth and you are staying because you want to sell her a lie by sweeping it under the rug. Maybe she feels you are emotionally/mentally abusing her and she is meeting your abuse in kind verbally/physically. You probably are a serial liar and she has had to treat you this way for you to tell the truth. The abuse escalates every time your screw up in a greater, more deliberate violation of her boundaries. Because of you past deceit and lack of commitment she was TRAINED by you to treat you this way when you mess up. This is a mother son relationship. You need just as much therapy as she does.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

I know it is possible it can't be fixed. I do not feel like "best effort" has been given yet (by me).

What has kept me from best effort - the abusive behavior. She wants to hear kind things about her...says I used to be kind all the time...the difference is she used to be at least civil. I know..the words are "man up". It isn't a matter of being SCARED to be nice...it seems to me to be more an issue of...what kind things do I have to say? Like I said originally...to say kind words i have to speak in terms of the past or her relationships with other people.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

She has (and has had) access to all email, cellphone, phone records (and the cell phone itself.

I haven't gotten cash myself in the last 2+ years...not since that initial conversation about not being able to account for cash. 

I kept a travel log for a while. She didn't believe I went where I said I was going. So...GPS might be a good option, it just seems extreme to me. Maybe I can use Google Latitude? Good enough?

Polygraph seems extreme too but whatever...I will look into it.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

TCSRedhead said:


> You need to understand that you completely destroyed her world. She trusted you completely and you broke that over and over. When she then needed you to be honest about what you'd done, you lied. Again.
> 
> Transparency isn't too much to ask. You can install a GPS into your car that she can track. You can make sure she has access to all phone, text, email records. You can do these things. Do you?
> 
> ...


And I have been going to counseling...continued with the 2nd that she quit until right after the near-restraining order incident. She insisted I not see him anymore because he was "giving bad advice". I don't know that his advice was bad in that regard, but whatever. I stopped. With a new counselor now. His suggestion (when I told him I was going to stay with the in-laws) was to give it a few days and then present her with three options:

Marriage counseling (leading to R)
Mediatory (possibly leading to divorce or R)
Lawyer up (divorce)

She has refused counseling a couple times since then.
She perceives mediation as a con to get her to agree to something a lawyer would not suggest she agree to.
Obviously I can do the lawyer on my own but I have not been willing to do that while I am living out of the home...and frankly, I am scared of moving in any direction that creates permanence. I don't want to hurt her more by divorcing her.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

badmemory said:


> As you describe it, I can appreciate the efforts you are putting in for R. But it sounds like your wife is damaged and needs intensive counseling.
> 
> Perhaps you've reached a point where you have to let her go if she's not willing to get help. Yes, your affair may have worsened her condition, but there's nothing you can do about that except to show true remorse, which you apparently have been. Seems however, your mounting resentment of her behavior now even makes that impossible. Do you even still love her?
> 
> If you're just trying to make it work for the children, ask yourself if they are better off in this kind of environment. My advice would be to insist on the counseling or else move on with your life. Then lawyer up to get a fair custody agreement.


I am hazy on whether I am showing "true remorse". Everything around how we interact right now makes it very hard for me to know what is a healthy reaction to being attacked vs me being combative. What is a healthy reaction to being hit and yelled at vs. what I should be doing to make things right in the face of her anger. I had read a book about emotional blackmail...feels like I am in the FOG (fear obligation and guilt) having my strings pulled by my wife but never giving her the result she is looking for.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> Was your W like this before your affair?


Yes...to a degree. 

She never hit me. All her anger was pushed out at her ex husband or the kids. I don't know if she ever hit him. He had anger issues too.

But as an example...the winter before the affair, her daughter was struggling with school. Wife was regularly (4-5 nights a week) spending 5-8 hours on 5th grade homework with her daughter. A lot of the same behavior now aimed at me, was directed to the daughter then, including some of the physical aspects. I didn't see much of it. I heard the yelling, which usually happend very late when they were both frustrated and I was putting the others to bed. But her ex called at one point and called out the physical things and verbal abuse the daughter was telling him W was doing. (he was right in this, but he has done worse, frankly).

So yes...she was like this before...but as with many behaviors, it got worse over time. In the beginning, she was wonderful in virtually every way (that I could see)


----------



## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Badguy,

I really feel for you because your situation sounds so much like mine it's crazy. I didn't cheat but I left her for 7 months and have paid dearly for it. All you describe I have experienced.

We are 6 years past me being the devil. It didn't get better until about 6 months ago. It still is not right but it's manageable.

You have to realize she has a mental problem, maybe borderline maybe something else but you have to realize you can't do enough to fix her. No amount of remorse or regret can satisfy her.
I ended up on a suicide hotline 2 years ago because I was buying the things she said to me, it was like brain washing.
I am planning on leaving if we regress at all. I have an exit plan and have discussed it with my counselor. I have made a plan to get her to work on herself more and recruited her parents and certain friends.
What you did was bad but not punishable by abuse and make no mistake it is abuse. It will continue for.....possibly for ever if you are not proactive. 
Good luck


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> The ONLY thing you can do is File and hope she comes around. But make no mistake THIS IS ABUSE even if you are a cheater.
> 
> You should file for divorce and custody. Sometimes the only way to save it is to be willing to lose it.
> 
> ...


trust issues...

through marriage counseling lots of issues were briefly brought up but never covered in depth.

In her younger years, this stuff happened:

Things I knew:
Bio dad abandoned her mom. She is adopted by dad.

Mother had a major breakdown when W was in High School. HER husband was threatening to leave (b/c mother was OCD and other things). Mother effectively took my W (her daughter) captive with a knife and told adopted dad, if he left, she would kill the daughter (my wife).

Things I didn't know:

She was raped twice in high school

She had an eating disorder (forced herself to throw-up)

Ex husband possibly abused her (still not clear)

She had an abortion (of my child) but didn't tell me at the time...this one might be confusing...she and I dated for a long time in college. She broke it off after she graduated. got married, had a kid, got divorced. Married me. The abortion was right when she broke it off at the end of college.

All of that stuff and she tells me this is WORSE than any of that, because none of the men who raped her ever told her they loved her (and I did).


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> The ONLY thing you can do is File and hope she comes around. But make no mistake THIS IS ABUSE even if you are a cheater.
> 
> You should file for divorce and custody. Sometimes the only way to save it is to be willing to lose it.
> 
> ...


Plan? I have no plan.

I know what I think the right thing is (for me) to do. But I also know executing on that is going to hurt my wife that much more.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

Acabado said:


> Abuse is not tolerable. Your affair along with the TT was also very abusive, maybe you just drove her to the edge given she had previous issues. The past is relevant but it's more relevant to be willing to accept the reality. You marriage is very dysfunctional.
> Your wife han been diagnosed as BPD. There's no cure. No amount of remorse is going to fix it. It can be manegable IF she's aware enough of her issues and willingly seek help. It doesn't seem her case, some of the behavior you wrote is bizzare and over the top and she refuses to own it (blameshifting).
> 
> Some marriages can't be saved, same shouldn't. I fear it's your case.
> Probably the worse is the financial situation. A break would help you both and what's more important, your children. Children are witnessing it, learning it.


What is TT?


----------



## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

She says transparency, kind words, dates and romance will help, so do it.

Fess up about all the nasty sordid stuff you did. All of it. Let her see the kind of slime you were. Let yourself see it. Only then can you stop being that guy. And maybe you can build back trust.

Shes given you a chance and you've trickle truthed and lied. Quit it. Be transparent. Are y'all in marriage counseling? Have you read "after the affair", "his needs her needs", "the give live languages"? Are you dating once a week? Hiding what you did wont help her get over it, nor will not listening to her when she tells you what she needs. Of course, she shouldn't be violent or abusiveness with you. Get her into anger management if she is willing.


----------



## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

thebadguy said:


> I know it is possible it can't be fixed. I do not feel like "best effort" has been given yet (by me).
> 
> What has kept me from best effort - the abusive behavior. She wants to hear kind things about her...says I used to be kind all the time...the difference is she used to be at least civil. I know..the words are "man up". It isn't a matter of being SCARED to be nice...it seems to me to be more an issue of...what kind things do I have to say? Like I said originally...to say kind words i have to speak in terms of the past or her relationships with other people.


I totally get how it can be hard to be nice and sweet to someone who is always losing their mind. Kind of like not wanting to have sex with your spouse when they are being a jerk.


----------



## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

thebadguy said:


> What is TT?


Trickle truth, not telling it all when you were givin the chance but letting it "trickle" out here and there.


----------



## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

I want to say that you knew your wife was already damaged so your actions and lying are even more difficult to overcome in light of that. We are also only hearing your side of what has happened. 

Stay in individual counseling, do all you can to be clear and transparent. No one should be physically abused and I would recommend outside intervention if that occurs. It may be the catalyst to force her into getting help as well. 

I still advocate working with an attorney or mediator to file for separation so the kids have a structured custody and visitation schedule. Get them into therapy as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

> I felt controlled.


Well, as you clearly couldn't control yourself, why should she not step up and 'take control?'


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

RightfulRiskTaker said:


> Because of you past deceit and lack of commitment she was TRAINED by you to treat you this way when you mess up.


Sure, she's not responsible for her actions. She was just trained.

It seems she was raised in chaos. The knife scene sounds horribler. For many people with such kind of FOO chaos is not only fine but safe. Maybe she was fine for a while, believed finnaly things were going to be good for her an then you affair triggered all the bad stuff fulll force and she's there. 

Do you part, try your best and then demand IC, a counselor you can talk to and give him your side of the truth. Start documenting the abuse.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

Acabado said:


> Sure, she's not responsible for her actions. She was just trained.
> 
> It seems she was raised in chaos. The knife scene sounds horribler. For many people with such kind of FOO chaos is not only fine but safe. Maybe she was fine for a while, believed finnaly things were going to be good for her an then you affair triggered all the bad stuff fulll force and she's there.
> 
> Do you part, try your best and then demand IC, a counselor you can talk to and give him your side of the truth. Start documenting the abuse.


I was her knight in shining armour. I started "saving her" when we were in college, 20 years ago. I LOVED this woman very intensely. I never knew why she woke up with nightmares so regularly in the early days. I just knew I was there for her when they happened. I held her. I told her she was safe (she was...many years).

For several years the nightmares stopped, they stopped all together. It was me. OMG...i helped her to heal from all that awful, awful crap that other people did to her when she was young. 

Then I ripped all of the good away in one foul swoop.

I am now both the best man she ever knew and the worst man she will ever know.

In the nights when we have shared a bed since the affair, many of them she wakes up with nightmares, like she did when we were young. Except now...I am no comfort. 

I have been keeping a journal. I have pictures of the bruises. I have some of the things she has destroyed. 

I don't know how much any of that matters. 

She was always angry and struggling to control her anger. Now, thanks in large part to my affair, she is abusive.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Have you said why you had an affair? You say you loved her intensely. Apparently, that was at a much earlier time & then things changed for you?


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

It felt good to be wanted. I hadn't felt wanted in several years. I don't mean sexually. I mean it felt good to have someone care how my day was going, to think that I am good in some way. 

One bad decision lead to many. The first bad decision was not taking my emptyness to my wife before I took it to another woman. Cowardly, really. 

I am fighting myself not to blame my wife in some way. I look at the first paragraph of this post and wonder if that is me shifting blame or me being honest about it. I think honest. 

I have lied to myself as much as anyone...sometimes it is hard to spot the truth, even if i am the one speaking.

I believe I do still love her. It is hard to tell in the middle of this mess.


----------



## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

Acabado said:


> Sure, she's not responsible for her actions. She was just trained.
> 
> It seems she was raised in chaos. The knife scene sounds horribler. For many people with such kind of FOO chaos is not only fine but safe. Maybe she was fine for a while, believed finnaly things were going to be good for her an then you affair triggered all the bad stuff fulll force and she's there.
> 
> Do you part, try your best and then demand IC, a counselor you can talk to and give him your side of the truth. Start documenting the abuse.


Point taken. Any relationship is a dance...We learn from each other, how to treat each other. There is no manual on how to stay married, only a script of how to get married. It's a partnership in all it's good and bad glory. She didn't just come out of the woodwork with all her bad behavior. He tolerated it time after time.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

thebadguy said:


> I was her knight in shining armour. I started "saving her" when we were in college, 20 years ago.


BG, if your W is a BPDer as the councelor said, she likely will stay with you only if you play one of two roles. Signficantly, both roles will "validate" her false self image of being "The Victim." You played the first role -- that of "The Savior" -- during your courtship period. Because you were attempting to "save her," the implication was that she was a poor victim who needed to be rescued. 

She was able to perceive of you as a savior only because, during the courtship period, her infatuation over you had convinced her you were nearly perfect and thus posed no threat. As soon as the infatuation evaporated, however, her two fears (abandonment and engulfment) would have returned, with the result that the temper tantrums or coldness would have started.

The second role you are allowed to play -- after her infatuation evaporates -- is that of "The Perpetrator." When you were kicked off the "savior" pedestal, she still needed you to fulfill a role supporting her false image as "The Victim." Hence, by blaming you for every misfortune -- and by demonizing you for your transgression -- she is still able to validate her self image of being the eternal victim. Because BPDers are unstable, they tend to flip back and forth between adoring you (viewing you as savior) and devaluing you (viewing you as the perpetrator). Over time, your role as perpetrator will grow and that of savior will increasingly diminish.


> Then I ripped all of the good away in one foul swoop.


If your W is a BPDer, "all of the good" was certain to fall away quickly -- no matter what you did. With BPDers, the more you love them, the greater their pain because their fear of abandonment is so great. This would explain, then, why she told you that, by loving her, you had caused her far greater pain than the men who had raped her (without loving her). Because BPDers have such weak egos that they cannot tolerate intimacy for very long, the closer you draw to prove your love, the more she will hurt. Hence, trying to heal a BPDer by loving her is as foolish and counterproductive as trying to heal a burn patient by hugging her.


> Now, thanks in large part to my affair, she is abusive.


Granted, the affair was the worst thing you could have done. That said, the abuse still would have surfaced if she has strong BPD traits. If you would like to read more about BPD traits, I suggest you read my brief description of them in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss it with you and point you to good online resources. Take care, BG.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

Yes...it rings many bells. I have been "the bad guy" for so long i don't remember being the good guy. But I have always been one or the other in this relationship. I have been referred to several books...in particular 'stop walking on eggshells' and...ok don't remember the exact title...Emotional Blackmail, I think. I have read the last not the first. Suggestions welcome. 

Recovery seems impossible.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

thebadguy said:


> Yes...it rings many bells. I have been "the bad guy" for so long i don't remember being the good guy. But I have always been one or the other in this relationship.


Well, BG, if forgetting your own good attributes is your worst complaint, consider yourself LUCKY. It is common for the BPDers' abused spouses -- especially those living with a BPDer for nearly 11 years like you -- to feel like they MAY BE LOSING THEIR MINDS. Therapists see far more abused spouses coming in for therapy -- to find out if they are going crazy -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves. Indeed, of the several dozen disorders listed in the diagnostic manual, BPD is by far the most notorious for making spouses feel like they are going crazy.


> Recovery seems impossible.


Don't believe it. You will be pleasantly surprised to find out how quickly you recover -- and how rapidly "GoodGuy" returns -- when you separate and she cannot keep hitting you in the head every day with a ball pin hammer.


> Suggestions welcome.


*First,* I agree with you that _Stop Walking on Eggshells_ is an excellent choice. It is the best-selling BPD book targeted to abused spouses like you. If your councelor is correct about her having BPD, that book likely will read like the story of her life. Yet, because your home has been such an incredibly toxic enviornment for your kids -- particularly in the past 2.5 years -- you and your kids may be much better off if you read _Splitting: Protecting Yourself when Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist._ Both books are written by the same author.

*Second,* I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com -- the largest and most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. This issue is such an enormous problem that that website is growing by 20 new members every day. The result is that it offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful to you are the "Leaving" board and the "Raising a Child when One Parent Has BPD" board.

*Third,* while you are at BPDfamily.com, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. My favorite is "Surviving a Breakup with Someone with BPD" at T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York.

*Fourth,* I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid second opinion on what it is you are dealing with -- and how likely it is she may pass it on to your children. As I've explained in many other threads, your best chance of getting a candid professional opinion regarding BPD is to NOT have the BPDer along. Therapists are loath to tell high functioning BPDers the name of the disorder.

*Fifth,* I suggest you see a good divorce/child custody lawyer (initial consult is free) and find out what your legal options are, particularly with respect to custody. If you decide to D her, do not give her any forewarning because you already are at great risk of her calling the police and having you arrested on a bogus charge of battering her. 

She already has bruises to show from hitting herself. It is very common for BPDers to have their husbands arrested to commemorate -- for all time -- their status as "The Victim." Moreover, when children are involved, they often do it to improve their leverage during the anticipated custody battle, at which time they typically use the children as a weapon against the husband. Indeed, your W has already been doing that for nearly 3 years. 

My BPDer exW, for example, abused me for 15 years and then, when she feared I would leave her, she had me arrested and thrown into jail for 3 days on a bogus charge of "brutalizing her." By the time I got out of jail, she had obtained a RO preventing me from returning to my own home for 18 months (the time it took me to get a D in this state). 

It therefore is important you carry a VAR in your pocket so you can record her temper tantrums, particularly those involving your children. And, I suggest you carry a cell phone so that, if she runs to call the police, YOU call them first. When I was arrested, the police told me that -- when there is any doubt -- they usually arrest the spouse who did NOT make the call and then let the judge figure it out in arraignment.

*Finally*, BG, please don't forget those of us on this TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping many other members and lurkers.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

I appreciate the suggestions. W and I talked for 3 hours tonight. I am still at the in-laws. I am trying to sort through a lot.

First, does anyone have suggestions for how to get a BPD BW into IC? 

Second, if you are the betrayed spouse and you chose (and feel like you are on the other side of) R, what things were critical to you to help make it happen?


Third...same situation as above, how did your WS show you affection and make you feel chosen?


----------



## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

Acabado said:


> How are behaving ILs? Are they aware of thier daughter's behavior? What they think about it?
> 
> I'm going probably to be bashed here. Being a BS doesn't make you automatically a good partner nor a good parent. This woman is abusing their childrens behaving like this. It's a fact without any qualifiers.


No. From what he says about her, that she attacked the infidelity, like all other problems "head on" implies to me she _was_ a grounded person aware that to move forward in life is to strive. Was.

The state she is in, this acute nervous breakdown (for want of a better term) is solely due to OP gaslighting her, minimizing, not taking complete ownership, not doing the heavy lifting, etc, and just leaving her at the mercy of her own destroyed self-esteem's imagination, with her entire world ripped out from under her.

And she had a newborn to deal with on top of it all. It is no wonder she has broken down.

The OP asks what can he do to right his marriage?

Well, why did he not simply be a Man about it all and be accountable for his own actions? Had he done so she would not be a broken wreck. He had plenty of opportunities to "right" his marriage, but took the path of least resistance instead.

He made his bed, he can lie in it.

To blame the wife for anything, much less the state HE has reduced her to, is just appallingly wrong IMHO.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

She found out about your affair while pregnant. Is it possible that this, combined with post partum has moved her into full blown clinical depression from which she hasn't recovered 2.5 years later? Imagine having your world destroyed just as you were about to give birth? Maybe the baby acts as a constant trigger. Your wife need serious help - so do you. The feeling you have of being "controlled" makes me think that you don't fully appreciate the damage you did with your affair. Maybe you think she forced you into having an affair because of her behaviour? If that's the case, there isn't much chance for things to get better.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

thebadguy said:


> Does anyone have suggestions for how to get a BPD BW into IC?


If she has BPD as your councelor said, MC likely will be a total waste of time because her issues are far more serious than a simple lack of communication skills. As to IC, that likely will not work either. Although there are many excellent treatment programs available nationwide, it is rare for a BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength required to stay in such programs. 

Therapist Shari Schreiber says you have a better chance flying to the moon strapped to a banana than ever seeing a BPDer stay in therapy long enough to make a difference. Although that is a bit of an exaggeration, I would be surprised if as many as 1 out of 100 BPDers ever manage to do so.

Even when a BPDer does agree to stay in weekly therapy -- as my exW did for 15 years with six different psychologists -- you likely will end up with an enormous bill while she spends the time playing mind games with the psychologist. My exW, for example, got worse instead of better. As the years went by, she became increasingly resentful of my inability to make her happy -- and increasingly fearful of abandonment as she saw her body aging.

The other problem you will face, if she does agree to staying in therapy, is trying to figure out if she is making any ACTUAL progress. How would you know? After all, BPDers routinely show enormous improvement every two or three weeks -- right before splitting you black all over again. Unstable people typically are always "improving" dramatically, right before slipping back to the dark side of the cycle. 

It therefore is difficult to see if any small, marginal improvements are occurring, given that it will take several years before IC will make a substantial difference -- assuming she is working hard in therapy. The temptation, then, is to fool yourself into believing -- as I did -- she is getting better.

For these reasons, I believe you are better off -- at this point -- getting a second opinion (by yourself) from a psychologist as to whether your councelor was correct about the BPD diagnosis.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

The first counselor we saw together, wanted to treat her depression. W refused, saying she was not the one who did anything. Why should she be the one treated?

3 counselors since have now said BPD. One based on one hour with me, who I never saw again b/c he would not see couples and W didn't want me in IC with someone she couldn't talk to. Another based on MC with both of us. A 3rd based on several hours with me.

There is truth to the idea that I was minimizing right after d-day. Gaslighting...during the affair, yes. I did. Since then, no.

I get some problems can't be fixed, and "laying in the bed one makes" seems like a terrificly simple answer. Yep...he broke it. He has to live with the consequences. Simple truth.

I am looking to understand "the heavy lifting". Talk to me about what made recovery possible for you. If you recovered, tell me how you felt loved and chosen by your BS after the affair.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

thebadguy said:


> 3 counselors since have now said BPD....I am looking to understand "the heavy lifting".


BG, if your W were only afraid of engulfment and suffocation, you could reconcile by backing away from her and giving her more space and being less intimate. Alternatively, if she were only afraid of abandonment, you could draw closer to her and give reassurance by intensely loving her.

Yet, because she is a BPDer, she fears BOTH of those things: engulfment and abandonment. Significantly, both of those fears lie at the opposite ends of the very same spectrum. This means you always are in a lose-lose situation because, as you back away from triggering one fear, you necessarily are drawing closer to triggering the other. Sadly, there is no Goldilocks position in the middle where you are not too close and not too far. I know because I wasted 15 years trying to find it with my BPDer exW. If it exists at all, it is a constantly shifting knife edge that is impossible to stand on.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

I have had a bad night. Holidays have been decent. I had been home with wife and kids for the last 3 weeks. A friend of mine died Christmas eve. He was under 40. One of my other friends called to share the news and the arrangements. Everything was 300 miles away from me. Being the bad guy, I told him I wasn't sure I would be coming but I would get back to him. Talked it over with the wife. She was quite certain I needed to go. Pushed even. So I asked her to go. she said she couldn't. Too much going on with the kids. Ok. 

I went. Visitation Sunday. Funeral today. Stayed with friend and family. At wife's request, he agreed to "vouch" for me. He knows my situation. I used the words "I had an affair" just to give you the flavor of the conversaiton.

I txt'ed when half way there. Called when I arrived. Called a couple hours after the visitation from the deceased parents' house. Txt'ed plans for the evening. Txt'ed when leaving. Txt'ed when we arrived back at my friend's house. Took a photo to prove what house I was in (by this point, I understood quite well that I had done something that didn't sit well with her...just didn't get what it was). Emailed when I woke up. Emailed between funeral and grave site. Txt'ed when leaving the cemetery. Called when I got on the highway.

Maybe I am just typing now so someone can call me a moron. I know in hind sight she wanted me to call her from my phone and hand it to the friend so he could prove in the moment that I was where I said i was. I didn't get it until it was too late. Am I a moron? 

Drove home after the burial, went to the house. Relieved my in-laws who were watching the kids and waited. Wife came home. Promptly escalated to extreme yelling (her yelling...not me). She threw my clothes out the basement door and demanded I leave (go back to in-laws). At one point in the evening, she was in my face yelling "hit me! hit me! hit me!". I didn't. Never have. Can't say the same of her toward me.

But now, once again, I have left the home of my children and am staying the night with my in-laws.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

BG, I'm sorry for the loss of your friend and your W's current temper tantrum. What a miserable way to start the New Year.


----------



## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

thebadguy said:


> I have had a bad night. Holidays have been decent. I had been home with wife and kids for the last 3 weeks. A friend of mine died Christmas eve. He was under 40. One of my other friends called to share the news and the arrangements. Everything was 300 miles away from me. Being the bad guy, I told him I wasn't sure I would be coming but I would get back to him. Talked it over with the wife. She was quite certain I needed to go. Pushed even. So I asked her to go. she said she couldn't. Too much going on with the kids. Ok.
> 
> I went. Visitation Sunday. Funeral today. Stayed with friend and family. At wife's request, he agreed to "vouch" for me. He knows my situation. I used the words "I had an affair" just to give you the flavor of the conversaiton.
> 
> ...



Sorry Badguy, I've been there brother. Similar behavior from my wife. Many all nighters with her yelling. It took 6 years but I think it's played out mostly. 

Hang in there, I almost gave up many times in fact I still have a bunch of cash, a blanket and a bag of extra clothes in my truck just in case Ive had enough
Listen to Uptown, he knows his sh!t.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

thebadguy said:


> She has (and has had) access to all email, cellphone, phone records (and the cell phone itself.
> 
> I haven't gotten cash myself in the last 2+ years...not since that initial conversation about not being able to account for cash.
> 
> ...


Polygraphs are wrong 25% of the time. I think they are a terrible idea for 'proving' anything in a marriage.

You have been transparent. Your wife is very abusive of both you and your chldren.

Being a BS does not excuse her behavior. I can see a few blowups in the first few weeks after finding out about the affair. But not daily for over 2 years. She is out of control.

I think you need to move back into your home. 

See an attorney to find out your rights. Tell the attorney of the abusive, angry, violent outbreaks in front of your children. Tell him/her that you are you are going to move back into your home and ask how you can prevent her from removing the children from the family home.

Then if she does not want to stay and be civil she can go move in with her parents. The children stay with you in the family home.

Your wife is in serious need of mental health care. Either she stays and gets the help or she leaves and the children stay with you.

Are her parents aware of the way she is behaving? Can they help you to get an intervention to get her help?

I highly suggest that you have a VAR (voice activated recorder) on you at all times when you are in the house with her. If she starts anything violent call the police. The VAR will be your evidence that you were not hitting her.

You describe her self inflicting wounds (bruses) on herself. She is in serious trouble. It might take calling the police and her getting a court order to get help before she takes things serious.


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

remorseful strayer said:


> In addition, be cautious about flinging the word abuse around.


Why? She breaks stuff; is physically violent towards him and has no qualms about having her children see this kind of behavior. I would classify this as abuse -- even when directed towards a cheater.,


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

thebadguy said:


> trust issues...
> 
> through marriage counseling lots of issues were briefly brought up but never covered in depth.
> 
> ...


Damn, you've got the mother of all projects on your hands. I feel for you.

BTW, you never answered the question about your feelings for the OW.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

Foghorn said:


> What are your feelings for the other woman, at this point?


I am thankful she has stayed away from day zero. 

Love, hate, or indifferent? I think I have to go with indifferent. 

Sucks to be in this deep of a hole over my involvement with someone I now feel indifferent about.


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

thebadguy said:


> .....She says "every day you don't choose me is another rejection". On one hand I understand that. On the other, every day I tell her i love her. Every day, I do things specifically because I think they are what she would want. Every day. Now...I do struggle with the kind words. She was...even before the affair...a very angry person in very big ways. Mean. Very controlling. Part...if not a lot...of that was our relationship. She is obsessively clean. I am chronically messy. she is ALWAYS going, going, going. I like to be still. She is super organized. I fly by the seat of my pants. But somehow before the affair, I always managed to make her feel loved. Now it seems that every thing I do to be loving is either tied to the affair (for her) or not thoughtful enough. it is always MORE. She is 100% in control but 98% disengaged except to express her hurt and anger.
> 
> I want to work it out. She doesn't want to share custody but each day elaborates on how she hates me. Yet in her more rational moments, I hear in her words that she WANTS me to fix it. A few keys there....she wants it to be fixed. she wants me to do it pretty much by myself. She is no longer open to counseling. refuses it. ....


My compliments for being here and trying to find way's to work on your marriage and situation. Most people could not bear so much as you have done untill now, you made a big mistake, but I believe you have a good character.

In this very turbulent situation I would ask you to think of a totally different approach:


You are here the nice guy trying to resolve the situation by being nicer and nicer. She has gone berserk over and over again and is out of control over these years.

I think your stand, or lack of it is feeding the fire of her anger.

Why don't you try, what they here call the '180' on her. And take the position of the Alfa men. 

- Tell her (as you have done many times now) you are guilty of what happened, are sorry, but you can't do any more than that. 
- Tell her she is hysterical and you are done with dealing with the situation and changing is now up to her.
- Then do not listen at all to anything she says, don't react to anything she does. Do the '180' (search on forum). Go you own way. (act as of) Nothing can hurt you anymore.


The strong stand, the new behaviour, the not having any effect of her words or actions, may create an effect on her thinking, it may eventually bring her out of this internal typhoon of emotions that causes havoc in your family situation.

She may then see you as a person that could be the firm husband and father she and the kids need. She then may opt for 'having you back', and find out she then can't command you back, but has to earn you back. That may even make you attractive in her eyes.


Well, just an idea when normal things don't work...


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> - Tell her (as you have done many times now) you are guilty of what happened, are sorry, but you can't do any more than that.


I am told repeatedly in heated discussions that I "haven't done sh!t" to make up for the affair. Not one thing. I am confused. Don't I NEED to do more than admit guilt and be sorry?



See_Listen_Love said:


> - Tell her she is hysterical and you are done with dealing with the situation and changing is now up to her.


I think her reaction will be to a) throw my clothes out of the house. b) throw a fit much like last night. c) alienate the kids from me and d) as a last resort, take the kids and go to her parents. Suggestions? Record it all?



See_Listen_Love said:


> - - Then do not listen at all to anything she says, don't react to anything she does. Do the '180' (search on forum). Go you own way. (act as of) Nothing can hurt you anymore.


Same as above. temper tantrum. Alienation. Take the kids. Maybe a physical attack thrown in. 

If those things happen, how do I enact the 180?

I've been asked to play with kids gloves while she uses brass knuckles. She sees it as the reverse. I know the affair hit like a ton of bricks and everything tied to it hurts very much.


----------



## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

You're not going to solve this on your own. It sounds like a pretty toxic environment for everybody. Again - how can you solve anything when you end up being yelled at and having things thrown at you? If that's the situation, then you need to remove yourselves from each other - at least temporarily while you get help. And not excusing your wife's behaviour - but you hit her with your affair at the worst possible time. Imagine trying to care for and bond with a newborn when your spouse has just betrayed you? What should be the happiest time of life ruined by your selfish act. She's not going to just get over it magically, especially when she had pre-existing problems.

You both need to get into some form of therapy because this will not solve itself.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

She now repeatedly refuses bot MC and IC (always refused IC went to MC until it was clear she had issues to work on).

She refuses to file for divorce.

She refuses mediation.

She now refuses to let me spend time with the kids, even when it is helpful to her.

Someone has surely been in her shoes...what is it she REALLY wants?

A happy marriage?
My servitude?
To punish me until I chose to divorce her?
For me to "disappear"?

I know the last one is probably her fantacy but it isn't going to happen. 

Stinks.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

thebadguy said:


> What is it she REALLY wants?


BG, if the three therapists are correct about her having BPD, your W has the emotional development of a four year old -- which is why you see her throwing temper tantrums and hissy fits so much of the time. Your question, then, essentially is: "What does a woman with the emotional development of a young child want?"

A better question is "Why would you want to know?" Her wants, like those of any four year old, are highly reactive to whatever intense emotion she is feeling RIGHT NOW. Consequently, her wants will change every few days -- sometimes every few hours. This means that, regardless of what the correct answer is to the question you pose, it likely will be wrong in a few days if not much earlier. That's the way it is with emotionally unstable people.

Earlier, I discussed with you the sort of things BPDers generally want (e.g., validation of their false self image of always being "The Victim"). We could discuss those wants some more but it doesn't really matter much because it is impossible to satisfy them. Trying to satisfy a BPDer's "needs" is as futile as trying to fill up the Grand Canyon using a squirt gun.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

I don't like the notion that it is ok to give up on people because they have problems or make mistakes. There are good things about this woman much as there are good things about me, even though I cheated on the same woman. 

She has done something strange in that she says she has given up but then doesn't actually terminate the contract. She does just enough to keep me thinking there is hope and just enough to keep me trying...even though she tells me she hasn't seen me try yet.

I am an educated person. I am immature enough and immoral enough to have an affair but otherwise I think I have a good sense of judgement, fairness, right, wrong, compassion, and justice.

Conversely, she is an educated woman who claims maturity and morality as strong suits but then withholds children, thinks in black and white, throws tantrums, hurts herself, hurts me, hurts the kids, and blames it on my affair in many forms. 

I don't want to give up on her. I just want a path.


----------



## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

thebadguy said:


> I don't like the notion that it is ok to give up on people because they have problems or make mistakes. There are good things about this woman much as there are good things about me, even though I cheated on the same woman.
> 
> She has done something strange in that she says she has given up but then doesn't actually terminate the contract. She does just enough to keep me thinking there is hope and just enough to keep me trying...even though she tells me she hasn't seen me try yet.
> 
> ...


You want a path? It zig zags all over the place. You have to keep an eye on the horizon and keep moving forward.

I guess you have to kinda be ready for a life similar to the one you've led so far with her. If you didn't cheat you'd be able to deal with her a little better because it wouldnt be directed at you as intensely.

I honestly don't think there is a set way to address this. Like I said the path is a zig zag.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> There are good things about this woman.


BG, there are A LOT of good things about high functioning BPDers. I generally find them to be a lot more fun to be around than "normal" individuals. Indeed, if the biographers are correct, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both suffered from BPD. A BPDer's problem is not being bad but, rather, unstable.


> She is an educated woman who claims maturity and *morality* as strong suits but then withholds children, thinks in black and white, throws tantrums, hurts herself, hurts me, hurts the kids, and blames it on my affair in many forms.


As a group, BPDers do not have bad morals or a lack of character. Their problem is not being _immoral_ but, as I said above, being _unstable_. The result is that, even if they have the best morals in the world, they will periodically perceive you to be Hitler incarnate -- and will treat you accordingly. People with high morals and good character would love to have an opportunity to kill Adolf Hitler.


thebadguy said:


> I don't like the notion that it is ok to give up on people because they have problems or make mistakes.


Nor do I. But the issue here is whether you are doing more harm than good by staying with your W. If she is a BPDer, she will tolerate your presence only as long as you continue enabling her childish behavior by playing the role of "Bad Guy." Significantly, with BPDers, you must play that role regardless of whether you ever cheated on her or not. A BPDer has an overpowering need to validate her false self image of always being "The Victim."


> She has done something strange in that she says she has given up but then doesn't actually terminate the contract.


BPDers are so fearful of abandonment that they sometimes will preemptively abandon the spouse before he has a chance to do it to them. My exW, for example, became very frightened during the last several years of our marriage when I started enforcing my personal boundaries and refusing to react to her drama. She therefore abandoned me. 

By "abandoned me," I mean she had me arrested and, while I was in jail, took out a RO barring me from returning to the home for 18 months (the time it takes to get a divorce here). And, after I filed for divorced, she also filed. At the divorce hearing, however, she told the judge she really didn't want to divorce me. Of course, the judge just rolled her eyes and granted the divorce degree which my wife had filed. 

This seemingly bizarre behavior is easily explained when you understand that a BPDer wants (a) to preemptively abandon you before you have a chance to do it to her and (b) to walk away looking like the martyr, "The Victim," to all friends and family.


> I don't want to give up on her. I just want a path.


As I said above (12/12 post), you are looking not for a _path_ but, rather, that _Goldilocks position_ where you are not so close that you trigger her engulfment fear -- and not so far away that you trigger her abandonment fear. Like you, I looked for it for 15 years, to no avail. It doesn't exist. This means that, unless she gets several years of intensive therapy, she will tolerate your presence only if you continue harming her -- by enabling her to continue behaving like a kid and getting away with it. If you establish strong personal boundaries and enforce them, she almost certainly will leave you -- or behave in a way that forces you to leave her.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

And so then, what is the 'right' thing to do? Divorce her? What do I do about custody? Get as much as I can to protect the children and give them as much 'normal' as possible?


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> I get some problems can't be fixed, and "laying in the bed one makes" seems like a terrificly simple answer. Yep...he broke it. He has to live with the consequences.


No, BG, he doesn't. If your W is a BPDer, the "bed" almost certainly was "broken" before she was five years old. Granted, you didn't do her any favors by having the A. With or without the A, however, she still would be unable to do self soothing, love in a mature manner, control her emotions, trust, maintain close attachments, or intellectually challenge her intense feelings instead of accepting them as reality.


thebadguy said:


> And so then, what is the 'right' thing to do? Divorce her? What do I do about custody?


When children are not involved, my advice is to D if the BPDer is not strongly self-motivated to work very hard on improving herself in weekly therapy for several years at least. Yet, when kids are involved -- as in your case -- my advice is to do what you decide is in the best interests of your children. You are in the best position to make that decision (augmented by professional advice from your attorney and psychologist).

In making that decision, one thing to consider is how damaging it is to your children to grow up seeing their parents in a toxic relationship where Dad teaches them that it is okay -- for purposes of keeping the peace -- to behave like a doormat, tolerating abuse and disrespectful behaviors. Another factor to consider is the risk, during one of her rages, she will call the police and have you arrested on a bogus charge -- so as to strengthen her position when fighting for custody of the children. 

A third factor to consider is that you essentially have a parent/child relationship -- not a husband/wife relationship -- with your W. A fourth factor to consider is that, despite all your efforts to sooth and calm your W, your very presence in the home likely has the opposite effect -- by triggering her two fears and, thereby, triggering a frequent release of her anger. A fifth factor to consider is that, if you have to keep walking on eggshells to prevent her walking out, you will be harming her with your enabling behavior, as I discussed above.


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

thebadguy said:


> > Originally Posted by *See_Listen_Love*
> > _- Tell her (as you have done many times now) you are guilty of what happened, are sorry, but you can't do any more than that._
> 
> 
> ...


I suggest you take a different approach as a way to get a breakthrough.

The idea is you vary your actions to see if you can change her reactions. If for instance you don't react anymore, go out of the house talk a walk, do not eat at home etc. as reaction you try to teach her that if she talks and acts unreasonably you just go away, mentally and physically.

That is not teaching her (or you) about what is good or wrong, but about what works and what does not work.

If she would talk reasonable, you answer reasonable, if she acts reasonable, you act reasonable..

This is not about the affair, this is about how to communicate, the dealing with the affair comes later on.


----------



## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> I suggest you take a different approach as a way to get a breakthrough.
> 
> The idea is you vary your actions to see if you can change her reactions. If for instance you don't react anymore, go out of the house talk a walk, do not eat at home etc. as reaction you try to teach her that if she talks and acts unreasonably you just go away, mentally and physically.
> 
> ...




I actually did this. I would try every different approach I could. What worked? Time worked but only alittle.

I stressed out trying to alter her reactions. I removed every trigger plus some. 

I learned that the only thing I can do is affect my behavior. So I handled things in a way that, even if she was crazy that day, my reaction was not to let it get to me. She goes up and down and I try to stay the same day to day. 

I tried not to let her random craziness bring me down randomly.

I gave up trying to make sense of what triggers her. This is the "walking on eggshells thing" you'll drive yourself crazy.

You can only fix yourself and try to convince her that the only hurdle left for her to be able to finally put the affair behind her is within her. (you have to address the affair because, to her, it's the issue, although you know it's much more. Trying to make it about her BPD is, in her mind, blame shifting and it will cause her to freak out again.)

There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING you can do to keep her from having these crazy episodes. You can only affect your reaction to them.
This means that you are on a long and difficult road that requires the patience, understanding and love of a saint.

Read my thread about my fathers secret and you'll see why I choose to continue to love my wife in spite of everything.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

I am feeling sad tonight. Trying to figure out how to re-engage.

Every conversation seems to end with W insulting me or hanging up.

She cleaned up the basement today (with the kids...I am still not in the house). 

She had thrown my clothes out in the snow New Year's Eve. When I came to pick up essential toiletries on New Year's day, I spread the wet clothes out so they could dry (in the basement). 

I called to talk to the kids today. 5 year old was done talking and asked W if she wanted to talk to me. I did not request this. I was cordial. created conversation. She said it was rude of me to leave my clothes all spread out like that. I said they were wet from the snow. She said I should have dealt with them. I asked her what was different between what I did and she thought I should do. She hung up the phone.

She still wants me to SHOW her I love her but she is not even tolerant of sane basic conversation on my part.

I am feeling hopeless.


----------



## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

I feel for the innocent children.
You know she is broken, you are looking for ways to fix it. You are not ready to realize that you cannot fix it.
You want to play some super cool/lovely caring husband. She dont give a **** about this.
Let her go man.
stop playing with her by playing with her you are playing with the life of your children's. Do you want them to be like your wife?
Else file for D, get maximum custody, Take care of the children as a good father. If she agrees for some therapy help her with what ever you can.
But get the D first.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

thebadguy said:


> I am feeling sad tonight. Trying to figure out how to re-engage.... I am feeling hopeless.


BG, I'm sorry to hear you're having a bad night. For what it's worth, you should realize that your M was doomed from the beginning if the three counselors are right about her having full-blown BPD. As I mentioned before, BPDers typically walk out on a M after 12 to 15 years because, as the years go by, they become increasingly resentful of the spouse's inability to make them happy -- an impossible task. And they become increasingly fearful of abandonment as they see their bodies aging. Hence, as regretable as your A was, it likely only speeded up that process.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

It is hard for me b/c she is winning the battle with the kids. She is alienating me to them. It is all very apparent in the 5 year old.

She is in the house.
She is refusing to let me spend time with them.
If I go to the house, she rolls into a temper tantrum.

The 5 year old now participates in the tantrum telling me I am mean to his mom (I am being quiet and trying to have a logical, calm conversation...she is screaming, crying, cursing, and slamming stuff around). How does that work???

I recorded it the other night. I have listened to it a few times. She sounds insane. The kids walk around like it is normal.

How do I do the best for my kids????


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

thebadguy said:


> She is in the house. She is refusing to let me spend time with them.... How do I do the best for my kids????


See a good custody/divorce attorney ASAP. Find out the best way to maximize the amount of custody time with your kids. Find out if any of the three BPD diagnoses can be used at the custody hearing. It is important to obtain at least 50% custody so your children grown up in a normal, healthy household at least 50% of the time.

The most dangerous period around a BPDer occurs when you are leaving her. It therefore is important that you get your ducks in a row before telling her and then just leave, ideally with some other adults around to help you and to bear witness if she becomes violent. Do not give her advance notice of your intent if you decide to do that. Speak with the attorney about the merits of leaving the household, i.e., does it weaken your custody case if it appears you have abandoned the children and household?


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

thebadguy said:


> It is hard for me b/c she is winning the battle with the kids. She is alienating me to them. It is all very apparent in the 5 year old.
> 
> She is in the house.
> She is refusing to let me spend time with them.
> ...


First start reacting to the suggestions, what happened when you acted conform advise?

Loose the self complaining misery state, man up!


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I have read but not commented on this thread because I am not trained to advise on the type of serious problem that your W has.

I am trained, though, to recognize when the welfare of children is at risk.

I know you feel responsible for the trajectory that your M has taken due to your infidelity. Please don't let that history stop you from doing the right thing for your children. Please get sustained professional and legal help with how to manage your situation going forward. Your children need to be protected & that is your primary job.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I have read but not commented on this thread because I am not trained to advise on the type of serious problem that your W has.
> 
> I am trained, though, to recognize when the welfare of children is at risk.
> 
> I know you feel responsible for the trajectory that your M has taken due to your infidelity. Please don't let that history stop you from doing the right thing for your children. Please get sustained professional and legal help with how to manage your situation going forward. Your children need to be protected & that is your primary job.


Thank you. I know you are right.


----------



## NotDoneYet (Oct 6, 2012)

They say recovery from the trauma of being cheated on takes 2-5 years...I'm 4 months out from my wife's confession and it still seems like yesterday so I believe 2-5 years is about right. At 2.5 years, your wife is really just at the point where she can begin to accept it. If you don't want to go, you may just have to sit through it for another 2.5 years.

I can tell you after being betrayed I knew the answer to the stay or go question right away. Though demonstrating anger is still reasonable at this stage, 2.5 years does seem like a long time for her not to know which direction she wants to go. I'm angry as hell at my wife but I still know I want to reconcile. I think you have to give her a taste of life without you and go NC, but with much loving reassurance you'll still want to stay after 3-6 months.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

If anyone has taken the time to read this whole thread....yes. Abuse. BPD. Affair. Drama. Hurt all around. I am trying to see past everything she has done, everything I have done, and move forward.

She has asked consistently over the last few years for:

Kind words.
To be chosen.
Dates.

All of the crazy that has happened over the last few years has left me failing to do those things with consistency. So...I ask you people.

Given those needs...those requests. What creative, romantic things you would do to go above and beyond the expectations of your significant other in those areas?


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

thebadguy said:


> She has asked consistently over the last few years for:
> 
> Kind words.
> To be chosen.
> ...


This is what my H does on a regular basis (we will be married for 30 years in a few months; 2 children):

- Brings me flowers every week
- Dinner date every week or two
- Plans trips for the two of us (2-3/year)
- Shows affection - kiss leaving for work, coming home from work, hugs, etc.; regular sex.
- Makes a real effort not to obviously look at other women while we are out together
- Compliments me - my clothes, work, body, etc.
- Calls/texts me during the day to check in.
- Makes sure he does everything he can to ensure our future financially
- Keeps himself in great shape
- Is polite and considerate - arguments never get nasty, etc.

Lots more if I think about it. And I try to do my share to make him feel wanted. These things develop over time as well. When our kids were young, we didn't take care of one another that well.

So what of the above are you not doing?


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> This is what my H does on a regular basis (we will be married for 30 years in a few months; 2 children):
> 
> - Brings me flowers every week
> - Dinner date every week or two
> ...


Lets see if I am doing any of them:

- Brings me flowers every week - tells me it is a waste of money and a selfish attempt to curry favor that doesn't work with her. She has thrown the last two sets of flowers directly in the trash.
- Dinner date every week or two - I accept I am making an excuse here....everything is so unstable and never moving in the same direction. I have made plans. she brakes them. I start to make plans, she tells me not to bother. Then she holds it against me that we haven't gone out.
- Plans trips for the two of us (2-3/year) - never done this. Should...a bit afraid of the time alone.
- Shows affection - kiss leaving for work, coming home from work, hugs, etc.; regular sex. - Used to. She won't let me kiss her anymore. She tells me I am only affectionate at hellos and goodbyes. She things any sex is just to fill my needs. (totally not)
- Makes a real effort not to obviously look at other women while we are out together. I don't look at other women, period...but I did have the affair 3 years ago. So I am thinking I fail this test.
- Compliments me - my clothes, work, body, etc. yes...but she rejects them and only remembers when I once complimented her toenail polish (used in arguments as a bad compliment).
- Calls/texts me during the day to check in. - did this...haven't for a while. every call/text turned into being berated.
- Makes sure he does everything he can to ensure our future financially - making 6 figures and holding the same job for 11 years counts, right?
- Keeps himself in great shape - used to...ran a half marathon 3 years ago. have fallen appart since the affair. don't exercise now.
- Is polite and considerate - arguments never get nasty, etc. - I believe I am polite and considerate but I do get defensive after about 20 minutes of insults, yelling, and name calling...and my weak spot is when she starts saying how *I* feel as if what she says were fact. This is a BPD thing and I fall into it every single time.


I would call that a solid "F". wouldn't you? Suggestions?


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

thebadguy said:


> I would call that a solid "F". wouldn't you? Suggestions?


I'm not dealing with a spouse with BPD and have no illusions about what you face with your W. I've checked in with this thread periodically, and think, sadly, that you need very good professional help. The standard things simply don't apply.

From what you say, it sounds like your W doesn't believe that what you say/do is ever genuine. This probably isn't just BPD, but also a result of your A.

Is there any nice thing you do for her that she accepts at this point?


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Like I said earlier, BG, trying to satisfy a BPDer's "needs" is as futile as trying to fill up the Grand Canyon with a squirt gun.


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

thebadguy said:


> Lets see if I am doing any of them:
> 
> - Brings me flowers every week - tells me it is a waste of money and a selfish attempt to curry favor that doesn't work with her. She has thrown the last two sets of flowers directly in the trash.
> - Dinner date every week or two - I accept I am making an excuse here....everything is so unstable and never moving in the same direction. I have made plans. she brakes them. I start to make plans, she tells me not to bother. Then she holds it against me that we haven't gone out.
> ...


Feel sorry for you, does she know about this, are there times she can see herself as a patient?


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> Feel sorry for you, does she know about this, are there times she can see herself as a patient?


Could you expand on your question? I don't quite follow what you are asking.


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

I wonder if she knows she has a kind of mental illness, like are there moments you can talk to her about her abusive behaviour and does she then understand what is being said.

Or, is she alway just going mental without interruption.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> I wonder if she knows she has a kind of mental illness, like are there moments you can talk to her about her abusive behaviour and does she then understand what is being said.
> 
> Or, is she alway just going mental without interruption.


She knows she has a fear of abandonment.
She knows she has low self-esteem.
She knows she "has a temper".

Any discussion of the possibility of her being abusive is flipped on me and escalates into a screaming rage event, if not a physical event of some type.

For example, if I say "you are yelling and cursing in front of the kids. You are spitting at me, breaking things, hitting me and hitting yourself. That needs to stop." 

She says: "You did this! You had a girlfriend! This is not on me!!"

I say "My affair is not on you, you are right. That is all my responsibility. I am sorry. Your behavior is within your control, not mine. Screaming, cursing, spitting, breaking, hitting are not behaviors I want our kids to witness or replicate. I hope you feel that way too."

She will say "I want them to know they should not lay down and accept being betrayed like this." 

I say "I agree. What I did was wrong. You would be within the realm of reasonable to divorce me over it, if you felt we could not reconcile. What you are doing by screaming, cursing, spitting, breaking, and hitting is abusive. it isn't showing them how to handle an affair."

she says "what you do is abusive! You perpetually stick my face in your pile of sh!t that you refuse to clean up! THAT is abusive!"

Then she starts pulling her hair out and hitting herself in the chest. 

An example from today of me 'sticking her face in it':

I texted her my schedule this morning. I added "I think you rock".

An hour later she replied "Made a smile flicker across my face."

This is the first kind reply she has had for me in...I don't know how long. I have said 'you rock' and many other kind/complimentary things in text, email, person, phone. 99/100 times, the response is "I don't believe it" (not that plainly stated at all). Maybe even 999/1000 times that is the response.

So...

I was surprised. I replied "I did? I hope i did. "

10 minutes pass...no response....

She has a 'texting buddy'. She has a friend who is a man. She claims the moral high ground and regardless of whether anything has or hasn't happened...they text back and forth all day and deep into the night. I started to think perhaps that text was mis-directed. That has happened before. I replied again:

"Was that a wrong number?"

She replied:

"No. "

me: I'm glad it was the right number.  That makes me smile too.

me: You do rock...and I can say that makes me smile a lot.

Her: Well, you had a good thing going til you pissed me off with the question that throws the black hat back on me. whenever I try to muster up something positive out of this pile of sh!t you have thrown me into, you simply push me in deeper. I didn't think it was funny. It was offensive.

Her: You are the cheater. Not me.

Me: I am glad it was the right number. I do appreciate the effort on your part. I was pleasantly surprised and then yes...worried.

Her: Maybe if you actually focused the guilt to his rightful owner, you wouldn't be such an a$$h0le.

Her: this is the very root of the problem. I keep on having to suffer the consequences of what YOU did. And do.

What do I do with that?


----------



## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

File for divorce.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

thebadguy said:


> What do I do with that?


I think I would give up. After years of this, you will be completely down the rabbit hole with her.


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

I agree. I would file and tell her that obviously being married to you is too painful for her to continue. As the deadline toward final divorce ticks away maybe she will reconsider her recent actions. I would not consider stopping divorce proceedings unless she gets into serious therapy and even then maybe not.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

Ya'll are a bunch of quitters. 

What kind of movie would The Matrix have been if Neo didn't see "how deep the rabbit hole goes".

Ok...I think I am funny. I haven't lost my sense of humor yet. How can it be time to file for divorce?


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

thebadguy said:


> Ya'll are a bunch of quitters.
> 
> What kind of movie would The Matrix have been if Neo didn't see "how deep the rabbit hole goes".
> 
> Ok...I think I am funny. I haven't lost my sense of humor yet. How can it be time to file for divorce?


Look at what you described. Hitting herself, pulling her own hair out, hitting you, throwing things, yelling and screaming. Is this the kind of atmosphere you want your children to grow up in? Is this what you really want your life to be?


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

thebadguy said:


> Ya'll are a bunch of quitters.
> 
> What kind of movie would The Matrix have been if Neo didn't see "how deep the rabbit hole goes".
> 
> Ok...I think I am funny. I haven't lost my sense of humor yet. How can it be time to file for divorce?


Are you telescoping things so that we're not getting an accurate picture? Are there loving moments? Do you still feel love for her?


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

On top of her continued abuse... she's cheating. Don't kid yourself.
No doubt about it. It's an EA.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> Are you telescoping things so that we're not getting an accurate picture? Are there loving moments? Do you still feel love for her?


There were two weeks since mid-November when it wasn't nastiness of some form every day. That was December 14-30.

To get to that point, I had re-finished cabinets and then taken care of everyone while they had the throw-up flu. To un-do it, I didn't adequately prove in the moment that I was at a friend's funeral.

Many of our conversations are the same repeat conversation of "you haven't done anything to make up for the affair". It doesn't always escalate to self-harm, hitting or breaking..though it does often escalate to the yellling and cursing. The times that it does turn physical (one way or the other) stand out in bold italics. 

All told, over the past 2.5 years, she has hurt herself like that about 15 times, physically assaulted me about 5 times (counting anything that actually hurt). left bruise(s) 3 times. (she did not attack me physically at all for at least the first 6 months after she found out. Broken stuff/damaged property, not counting food...about 15 times. Counting food, 40 some-odd times. (lots of smashing an apple on the kitchen floor). Thrown my clothes outside, 5-6 times. Painted "Cheater" on the side of a plastic tote once...but reused it a few times to put my belongings in, out in the drive way. The biggest issue is the yelling in front of the kids. That happens roughly weekly. There have been 100+ significant events like that, not all in front of the kids.

So...spread that all out over the last, roughly 900 days. 

Everything else is somewhere in between. Very little of it has been really good.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

thebadguy said:


> To get to that point, I had re-finished cabinets and then taken care of everyone while they had the throw-up flu. To un-do it, I didn't adequately prove in the moment that I was at a friend's funeral.


BG, yes, that's the way it is with BPDers. Weeks of work and sacrifice can be entirely offset by something as small as forgetting to put the milk carton back into the refrigerator. It therefore is impossible to build up a store of good will or appreciation on which you can later draw during the bad times. With BPDers, it is always "What have you done for me lately?"


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Either you are blithe in your acceptance of the abuse, or inured to it, or traumatized by it, or...a masochist (?).

I'm assuming that you're a hard-working man who once loved his W, had an affair for reasons that are never understood & is now caught by feelings of guilt, obligation, fleeting affection, inertia, and stubbornness.

And Acabado's point about her obvious EA is a good one that gets lost amidst the horror of your other description.

This is a real issue to address.


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

thebadguy said:


> There were two weeks since mid-November when it wasn't nastiness of some form every day. That was December 14-30.
> 
> To get to that point, I had re-finished cabinets and then taken care of everyone while they had the throw-up flu. To un-do it, I didn't adequately prove in the moment that I was at a friend's funeral.
> 
> ...


I see nothing in your post to indicate that you two should stay together and everything to suggest at the very least your children would be better off if you split up.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

Acabado said:


> On top of her continued abuse... she's cheating. Don't kid yourself.
> No doubt about it. It's an EA.


She believes she has kept it PG. I haven't questioned her actions. She has told me he propositioned her at least once some time ago. She now deletes texts between them. Probably 20 messages per day on average.

It did occur to me that she possibly DID reply to the wrong text with her smile message and she was covering by getting angry. That is close enough to something I would have done in the middle of my affair.

It has also occurred to me that she may want to stay angry because she doesn't want to lose the closeness she feels with him and/or it is how she keeps her conscience clear. And...well...in this scenario, any time I get suspicious, she can just flip out and I drop the scent.

The OM in this case is a lawyer. A criminal defense lawyer (he defends death row convicts). He's married. Has kids. I know his wife.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

So...assuming she is truly having an emotional affair here, what do I do to deal with that?


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

thebadguy said:


> She knows she has a fear of abandonment.
> She knows she has low self-esteem.
> She knows she "has a temper".
> 
> ...


O man, this is difficult for you, there are some things you could try but in general I am affraid like others say, there is no way you have to keep trying in this situation.

Maybe as a change inducing action, you could turn away from her completely and concentrate on your own mental health. She is the one needing to go to a mental institution, but if that is not possible you have to save yourself now. Protect your own integrity, body and mind.

I would give her one last chance to tell you if she wants to try to repair the relation. Do not react to anything she says, only wanting to hear yes or no from her. Then take the yes or no and only take an action the next day on the subject. Tell us if she says yes or no on her last chances. Keep a cool stance.


----------



## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Well there certainly has been a lot of progress since you started posting a month ago, eh?


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

I get the point.

I do wonder if calling out the emotional affair she is having might affect her thinking and actions. I know it won't make her suddently kind but maybe it will open her eyes to the possibility that what she is doing is not based on the 'best interest' of the marriage or the kids?


----------



## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

I think its absolutely disgusting that she is continually battering you while you are trying to make things better. Dont get me wrong, I think you're a dirt bag for cheating, but if you are trying to work on the marriage then you shouldnt be constantly beat up over it. I find it even more disgusting that she acts this way, in front of her kids AND thinks its ok to talk to another guy. She is stooping to your level and wants to bash you while she sits there looking like she's an angel. Im sorry but F that!! I would give her back everything she is giving you, what she is doing it wrong!


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

To me it sounds like she's essentially put you in prison to punish you for your affair. And she is certainly punishing you. You're the one who's locked up, so she has the freedom to conduct her own affair now.

The 20 texts per day is a real signifier & dealing with an EA is very tough. Given what else is going on, I will say again that you need professional direction to deal with it. People usually say to gather your evidence, confront with it & demand that all contact with the AP be stopped. In your case, she will no doubt feel it's her absolute right to continue with this given your own A.


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

thebadguy said:


> I get the point.
> 
> I do wonder if calling out the emotional affair she is having might affect her thinking and actions. I know it won't make her suddently kind but maybe it will open her eyes to the possibility that what she is doing is not based on the 'best interest' of the marriage or the kids?


If she is in the midst of an affair whether it be emotional or physical she won't be able to see anything clearly. Coupled with your own affair and her BPD and I don't see how you will say or do anything to get through to her.


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

You wanna catch her?
Keylogger at the PC, spyware on the phone, get a hold at the phone bill: if they call each other, get the hours and plant the VAR in the right spot. Low key, gather the evidence and expose directly to BW and ILs before any confrontation. Before that lawyer up. Then wait for the sh1t hit the fun.

... the problem is the aftermath will be horrible. And it will fix nothing. In your case I'd skip all this and I'd divorce her anyway. To be honest I'm way more worried about your children present and future. The fact she's blatantly cheating is the least of your problems. You are a victim of the boiling frog effect, no different from the one average battered women experience, you are just desensitized, used to the wild swinging moods to the abuse at all levels. You are still delusional you can fix her, you can fix the marraige if you behave in a certain way. You refuses to believe becasue "you are not a quitter".
It's futile, there's a structural problem in your wife's brain. The target will move every minute. She can't even explain what she wants becasue she doesn't know. You are to blame because you are failing to fix the constant inner turmoil she lives in.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Acabado said:


> To be honest I'm way more worried about your children present and future.


^^^ Again, so important!


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

for the benefit of those worried about my kids. I have set boundaries and will not allow any further inappropriate conversation or other behavior in front of them. I simply walk away and, if necessary, leave the location.

Late last night (all kids asleep) I brought up the texting to her. Not as thought I thought she was having an affair but in the context of...no matter the content, you seem to be texting with him all the time. I think that has to be negatively impacting our relationship. She didn't like this and was offended. How dare I suggest she is doing the same behavior she is so angry with me about (that's the jist). 

So...effectively, she refused to discuss any possibility that there was an issue. And it all turned into the standard spinned up rant.

I guess my question is this...if she weren't BPD...how would a normal person, not over committed to the relationship w/ her texter respond? Ok...now throw in that I DID have an affair. What then?


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

'Normal' people in an EA/PA react about the same. 

Denial of the addiction. Gaslighting. Lying. Continuing to cheat...

In my opinion both affairs have to be discussed separately. You can't do rug sweeping in any direction because of it. 

I would say trying to get to some form of communication about how you FEEL about all issues is the first you need to do. Don't think in terms of problems or solutions, but agree to ask questions and listen to one another. No reaction, no discussion, no disputing of facts. Let each other vent everything and anything, by asking eachother open questions.

When this would happen you both get a feeling of acknowledgement, which may lead to other steps.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

First, it's good that you are making an effort to keep the children away from your arguments.

As for EA's, most people seem to simply deny there's a problem because it isn't physical. They lie about how much/often they are in contact and start to pw protect all their things (phone, laptop, etc.).

In your case, though, your W is pathologically entitled because of your own A. She will probably respond differently, may ratchet up her abuse.

You can try to read 'Not Just Friends' by Shirley Glass.

(Again, serious professional help would be best.)


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

I have been to the house for the past 9 days straight. At least. Last weekend was bad. This week has been a bit better. and the past two nights have been ok. 

I am so confused about what she WANTS. Tonight it wasn't a rant, though if I had stayed longer it would have gotten there because I can not make sense of what she is saying.

I treat her as my wife and as someone I care about and am attracted to. She tells me the elevator can't magically go from the lobby to the 26th floor without passing all the other floors (an escalating scale of affectionate behavior). The 26th floor is apparently me coming up behind her and hugging her. Yet, she is annoyed at what she describes as small talk. You have nothing to talk about except small talk. Small talk today was our children, their relationships with peers, parents, step parents, finances, events she runs, issues with the house, and more about kids with some attempts to talk about anything that is important to her. All of it...small talk...and not worthy attempts at engaging her. For me...those are maybe floors 2-5 to say the least. And there has been a lot more to my efforts...small kindnesses, kind words, tenderness. 

I am frustrated and feeling like it is an unsolvable situation. If I am not working my butt off to show her I choose her, then she feels I am degrading, rejecting, and pushing her down into her pit of despair. If I am working my tail off, then I am taking a rocket to the top of the building and that does not work for her either.


----------



## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

thebadguy said:


> There were two weeks since mid-November when it wasn't nastiness of some form every day. That was December 14-30.
> 
> To get to that point, I had re-finished cabinets and then taken care of everyone while they had the throw-up flu. To un-do it, I didn't adequately prove in the moment that I was at a friend's funeral.
> 
> ...


Hi Badguy,
You know I don't check your thread all that much because I find it so similar to my situation that I get upset. You'd think I would check it because I can learn something. 

The problem is I already know there is no fixing it. There is only a realization that this is how it is going to be. So I read your story and I feel hopeless, and the truth is I want to be deluded as long as possible.

The quote I copied above sounds like I wrote it except I'm 6 years into the anger directed at me. Although my marriage is 22 years. Hindsight indicates the behavior has alway been there but now I've given her a focus...me.

It was like your situation exactly. It started out a blow up every 3-4 hours. Then every day. Then every other and so on. Now it's every 3 to 4 weeks sometimes longer, we've even gone close to 2 months without an event. The problem is Im always waiting for it.

She even had an EA that I could not bring up without breaking loose a world of sh!t to fall on my head. It took 6+ years till I could get the truth and discuss the details without an event happening.

This mental state she is in will NEVER go away it will only recede and flair up. I realize this and choose to stay. I have cash and a packed bag in my truck, In case I finally snap out. I snapped out 7 years ago and left. I actually had a nervous breakdown and went off reservation. Everything went sideways and she became perfect for a year, she lured me back and when I was sedated (antidepressants) and committed again she busted out the craziness only twice as much.

Currently the good times are really good, but I'm still waiting for it everyday. 

I don't want to make you hopeless but the way I see it this is a commitment that not everyone can honestly handle. Your situation is maybe even worse because you cheated and this gives her a righteous anger edge that she will NEVER release. 

You have to look inside yourself and see honestly if your capable of hanging in when it won't change.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

thebadguy said:


> I am so confused about what she WANTS.


BG, that's because she doesn't know HERSELF what she wants. BPDers carry enormous anger and shame from their early childhoods. With all that hurt inside, it is much less painful for them to deal with it if they can find things outside themselves to attribute it to. They therefore go through their adult lives trying to make sense of it all, i.e., trying to figure out who it is in their environment (namely, YOU) that is causing that pain. 

Because their egos are so fragile and unstable, their subconscious minds protect the egos from seeing too much of reality. That is, the subconscious projects the guilty thoughts and bad feelings onto the spouse -- thus allowing the conscious mind to really believe that most, if not all, of their pain is coming from the spouse. Because this happens subconsciously, the BPDers usually are totally unaware that this is happening. Your W, then, likely truly believes all of the outrageous accusations spilling out of her mouth.


> I am frustrated and feeling like it is an unsolvable situation.


You will drive yourself crazy trying to make sense of it. This is why BPD is so notorious for making the abused spouses feel like they may be losing their minds. Moreover, the situation likely will get worse. As the years go by, BPDers typically become increasingly resentful that the spouse is unable to make them happy -- an impossible task. And, as they see their bodies aging, they become ever more fearful of abandonment.


----------



## ChknNoodleSoup (Oct 20, 2012)

When my husband had his EA and then never sat me down to say 'that was wrong, I had no right and I'm sorry it hurt you' I flipped! He said he was sorry but same way he would if he ate the last cookie. He also blamed me for the affair which he now vehemently denies. Thing is, between the lies, being late and unaccounted for, the blame, the hurt, the stress of the future, and little mean things he'd do, I went nuts and I yelled a LOT. I also hit him twice. Completely not ok. Nothing excuses abusive behavior. Nothing. I was pushed to the edge and I should have addressed/handled it different. Point is, all he had to do was show me remorse and that he chooses me. I would have been so much calmer and more relaxed and we could have faced this journey a different way. I think you need to sit her down, tell her that you had no right to have the affair, that you understand it hurt her, if it's not clear, you choose her and want to work on your marriage. You don't feel very comfortable with how her anger is being handled and would love if she addressed that for the kids first then you second. Good luck!


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

She will keep moving the target. The situation as it is somehow "works" for her. She's way more comfortable with that than every other possible choice, facing her own reponsability, challeging her though process and shortcomings is no a possibility, something that won't register ever.

From now on tell her you both can try another ways of comunication, an experiment: ask her to put her rules, demands, wishes, hopes, expectations, suggestions in writing.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

ChknNoodleSoup said:


> Point is, all he had to do was show me remorse and that he chooses me. I would have been so much calmer and more relaxed and we could have faced this journey a different way. I think you need to sit her down, tell her that you had no right to have the affair, that you understand it hurt her, if it's not clear, you choose her and want to work on your marriage. You don't feel very comfortable with how her anger is being handled and would love if she addressed that for the kids first then you second. Good luck!


This is the magical mystery tour. When I say that...what I mean is this...to "show remorse and that I choose her" are the things I am told I don't do well enough. On one hand, it would be really easy to just say I am the cold hearted moron who can't show his wife that he is sorry for having an affair nor can he show her, she is the woman he wants to be with. But frankly, I don't think I am that moron. I may be a moron...but I don't think I am that moron. Today for example...she was complaining that her ear hurt. Dumbest thing ever, the 10yo daughter threw a marshmallow at her and hit her on the ear. She thinks her ear drum is bursted as a result. I went over, helped make a fire so she could lay on the couch and relax. Got the 2 yo down for a nap, helped the 10 yo with her homework, kept the 5 yo occupied, snuggled with her on the couch, made dinner, did the dishes, picked up the house and stripped/re-caulked her bathroom and kitchen. I was told right before I left for the night, at almost 10pm, that I really did nothing to show her affection. If that isn't showing I choose her, what is? If me giving her space by leaving the house every night isn't showing remorse...what is? i need the betrayed spouse's definition of these things so I am speaking the same language. Now...if what I described resembles remorse and "choosing" then I am at least not crazy. And that is some comfort. But at this point, I honestly require someone else to inform me that I am not crazy (or tell me how I am...either way would be ok).


----------



## ChknNoodleSoup (Oct 20, 2012)

thebadguy said:


> This is the magical mystery tour. When I say that...what I mean is this...to "show remorse and that I choose her" are the things I am told I don't do well enough. On one hand, it would be really easy to just say I am the cold hearted moron who can't show his wife that he is sorry for having an affair nor can he show her, she is the woman he wants to be with. But frankly, I don't think I am that moron. I may be a moron...but I don't think I am that moron. Today for example...she was complaining that her ear hurt. Dumbest thing ever, the 10yo daughter threw a marshmallow at her and hit her on the ear. She thinks her ear drum is bursted as a result. I went over, helped make a fire so she could lay on the couch and relax. Got the 2 yo down for a nap, helped the 10 yo with her homework, kept the 5 yo occupied, snuggled with her on the couch, made dinner, did the dishes, picked up the house and stripped/re-caulked her bathroom and kitchen. I was told right before I left for the night, at almost 10pm, that I really did nothing to show her affection. If that isn't showing I choose her, what is? If me giving her space by leaving the house every night isn't showing remorse...what is? i need the betrayed spouse's definition of these things so I am speaking the same language. Now...if what I described resembles remorse and "choosing" then I am at least not crazy. And that is some comfort. But at this point, I honestly require someone else to inform me that I am not crazy (or tell me how I am...either way would be ok).


Honestly, I don't know what her definition is. For me, these actions would show that. What is her love language? Does she want you to stay home and is too proud/scared to ask?


----------



## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

ChknNoodleSoup said:


> Honestly, I don't know what her definition is. For me, these actions would show that. What is her love language? Does she want you to stay home and is too proud/scared to ask?


One of the ways we make ourselves crazy is by trying to make the actions, wants or needs of person who has a personality disorder, fit into a logical or sensible pattern.
We tend to project our logical evaluation of a situation onto a person who is not even remotely in the same place.

We end up feeling crazy and stupid for not being able to "figure" out what they want. Plus they tell us that we are the problem. 

It's helps to know this going into an encounter with someone like this.


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

dogman said:


> One of the ways we make ourselves crazy is by trying to make the actions, wants or needs of person who has a personality disorder, fit into a logical or sensible pattern.
> We tend to project our logical evaluation of a situation onto a person who is not even remotely in the same place.
> We end up feeling crazy and stupid for not being able to "figure" out what they want. Plus they tell us that we are the problem.
> It's helps to know this going into an encounter with someone like this.


This.
That's why I told you to ask her to put her expectations in wrinting. This can also be done by making her read "The five love languages" and "Her needs his needs" or at least fulfil both online questionnaires (google love languages quizz, the emotional needs questionnaire is at marriagebuilders website).
Truth is she will move the target at every chance as I told you earlier but as you don't want to quit yet I want you to realize what's really going on here. Your wife is not the "typical" betrayed wife, the "remorseful wayward husband model" doesn't work. Reacting to her wild moods swings and unrealistic expectations is going to turn you crazy.


----------



## mupostori (May 20, 2012)

Since talking doesn't work i think you need to write her letter in which you air your grievances pre and post affair , also ask her to respond in writing and not yelling . 

the abortion bit got me mad ,according to me she has no moral ground


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

I probably shouldn't update this thread...or maybe I shouldn't have started the new one I just started. But I did and I am. After I started a new thread I came back and read back through this one...at least part of the way.

To update the story...

I have been back in the house with my wife and kids since mid-February. I think that is right. I am not sure what to believe entirely, but she tells me her parents wanted me out. Which...ok. I would want me out too. So...out of the generosity of her heart, she let me come back into the house. I am thankful for that. I truly am. At the same time, I will never leave my home where my kids live like that again. She can ask and demand all she wants. I love her. To me that is now a boundary that will not be crossed by me.

I am still mostly not sleeping in my own bed, except when she wants to be touched...and then sometimes being asked to sleep elsewhere after. That happens for a few days every 6 weeks or so followed by a major blow-up. My clothes are still in the basement. I am still reporting my expected whereabouts daily. Calling or texting when I leave someplace to go someplace else. I slip up on that occasionally. I may take the kids and run an errand without mentioning it to her. If she finds out that is not good. So i am trying to make sure that doesn't happen anymore. 

She still isn't getting what she wants. I am finding it harder to come up with kind words. I am somewhat resentful of sex because I know after a few times, she will be 'satisfied' and then blow up in a big way. And furthermore...tell me the only time I am remotely nice is when I have access to her body. I tell her she is misinterpreting the signals. I am affectionate when she will accept it. She seems to only accept it or indicate she would accept it when she wants sex. Most other times she pushes me away or says nothing as though it didn't happen.

There have been a handful of blowups in the last six months. I could chart it. I don't. My actions don't seem to impact the cycle very much....but I may be misinterpreting that.

This morning was difficult for me. It was back to screaming names, insults, and threats at me in front of the 5 yo. She hit me last time she blew up. Today she added something different. Instead of hitting...she just did this aggressive posturing and exaggerated hand movements....in my face, like someone trying to pick a fight...to intimidate. She made me THINK she was going to hit me a few times. Tells me she hates me. Tells me to leave. Says I am lifeless. She needs passion. I tell her I am shell shocked that all the yelling puts me in shock and I can't even think.

The demands are the same but I seem incapable of meeting them. Kind words, to feel chosen, affection, and now passion. 

I don't know how to do it. I want to do it. I want her to feel loved. I want her to know I am sorry. My sorries sound less remorseful in the middle of her yelling. I resent the treatment. I don't know if I should or not....I see how I have responsibility...I just think she is responsible for her own behavior and her behavior is what I resent...It is all quite confusing for me.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

thebadguy said:


> I am somewhat resentful of sex because I know after a few times, she will be 'satisfied' and then blow up in a big way.


BG, that is exactly how BPDers behave. They start the WORST fights immediately after the very BEST of times. As we discussed last December, a BPDer has such a fragile self image that she will get a scary feeling she is losing herself into your strong personality during closeness and intimacy. She therefore will create a fight out of thin air in order to push you away and give her breathing space. Yet, as you back away to give her space, you will trigger her abandonment fear. With your untreated BPDer W, then, you will always be in a lose-lose situation. No matter what you do, you will lose.


> Today she added something different....in my face, like someone trying to pick a fight...to intimidate. She made me THINK she was going to hit me a few times.


BG, you are playing with FIRE and you are likely to be burned very badly. My BPDer exW did the very same thing to provoke me so she would have an excuse to call the police and have me arrested. I never did fall for that tactic. It did not stop her, however, from calling the police and making the bogus charge that I had "brutalized" her. Because it was done early on a Saturday morning, I was in jail nearly 3 days before I could see a judge in arraignment. During that time, she obtained a R/O barring me from returning to my home for 18 months (the time it takes to get a divorce in this state).

That likely is your future. BPDer wives are notorious for having their husbands thrown into jail on bogus charges. I therefore would not be surprised if you were arrested in the next year or two, right before she files for D. One reason is to prove that she is "The Victim" she is always convinced she is. The main reason, however, will be to beat you over the head with your arrest record and the R/O during the child custody hearings. 

Instead of getting 50% custody, you will be given supervised visits a few days a month. After all, she will have "proof" at that point (the arrest and the R/O) that you are a violent threat to your own children. Importantly, when you've been arrested on a DV charge, the courts will hand out R/O's like candy for the asking.

This is why Dogman, Acabado, I, and other members have encouraged you to start documenting your W's instability (e.g., the temper tantrums and hitting) with a VAR or a video camera (or the camera on your phone). As soon as she has you arrested on a bogus charge, you will be banished from the household and won't be able to document anything. As I said before, BPDer marriages typically last 12 to 15 years, at which time the BPDer walks out or has her spouse arrested and forcibly removed from the home by the police.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

It has been a while. Yesterday was a kind of good day. Wife was going to look at new couches and called to ask if I would come too. I realize she sees this as 'reaching out'. She has not erupted in a couple weeks and has been civil for that long. A combination of everyone in the house getting the flu and me throwing my back out a few days ago. Things have been all over the place as I assume anyone who has read this thread from the beginning would expect.

Since I last wrote, W got a part time night job for a few months. That was good for me being able to recover some of my own energy and recover some of the closeness to my kids by her having to give up some of the care giving. She has since quit that job. I would have quit that job too. Now she has a new, much more flexible, and promising part time job. 

Holidays were rough. She tried to kick me out a week before Christmas. I refused. I came home to her changing the locks on the house. She hasn't changed the front door yet but did the other two. I got in anyway. She never finished the front door. Not sure why. 

Before that, we had started getting a bit closer. That crashed to the ground when I came home from work with beer on my breath. There was a holiday party during regular business hours. I neglected to tell her about the party until she asked why I smelled like alcohol. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Rewind to d-day. Rinse, repeat. I got some nasty bruises on my shoulder out of that. Also had my stepdaughter trying to steal my phone when I started recording what was going on. Of course, my wife backed off when I started recording anyway so all I have is the 14 yo being psychotic telling me to leave and trying to steal my phone. Then a couple weeks later, nasty bruises on my chest. Have been sleeping on the couch since. Hadn't really been consistently in the marital bed for at least the last 3 years. It will be 4 years since d-day this coming April. Still kind of in the same place. Only difference is this year I refused to move out. 

I have been lurking on this board again for the last couple weeks. Any time things get really stressful, I look here for some clarity or insight. 

My clothes and possessions have all been in the basement for the last 2+ years. I can't recall the last time my clothes were actually in my closet in my bedroom. I don't have a bed right now. The kids now all call it "mom's room" and "mom's bathroom". We were talking about the grand notion of buying a new house. I said something to the effect of "I like the idea of all the kids having their own bathroom attached to their bedroom so they can each be responsible for cleaning their own." My 6yo son asked "then where would you shower?" It is all normal to him now. 

That's more than enough of me sharing the events that have taken place lately. I feel like I sound as if I am after sympathy. I recognize that. My wife tells me I always want to be the victim. That is definitely what I have just done...described how I have been victimized. 

I think I have learned a lot in the last year about things I was doing poorly as the cheater trying to help his betrayed spouse heal. I still have a hard time giving the things she asks for (kind words, affection, choosing her). I know all other marital issues must be put on hold while intensive care is given to help the betrayed heal. She hasn't healed. I feel like I can't get past myself to give her what she needs. 

I have been wondering lately what my kids will think of me when they are old enough to comprehend in terms of their own experience what I did. And for that matter, what their relationship with their mom will be when they are grown, given how she treats them and how she treats me.

I have also been contemplating my own childhood experience with infidelity. My dad was a serial cheater. I think. I have talked to my sister about it but my mom has been dead for more than 10 years. When she died, they were divorced. I found letters that show she was having an emotional affair with a former high school sweetheart just prior to dying. My mom wasn't married at that time, but the man was. My dad has since remarried and I think to one of his former affair partners...though only he and she would know.

I don't have a whole lot of emotional attachment to any of it other than being a little weirded out reading a letter my mom wrote to her married affair partner that talked about wanting his hand on her breast... Maybe you shouldn't read your parents letters after they die. 

Yeah...I lost my dad for the most part after the age of 12 because (I believe) he cheated on my mom and moved out when she asked him to. There was no custody agreement. He didn't see me every other weekend. He didn't see me or talk to me unless I went to see him. That's how it stayed until my mom let him move his camper back onto the property (very rural setting...when he moved out, he lived in a camper). I guess he was fully out of the house for 3 years or so before the camper came back home. Then he was still sleeping in the camper for another year. Then he shared an apartment with my sister her freshman year of college. Then, when I left for college, he moved back in with my mom. I guess I hadn't thought all the way through that in a long time in the context of it being because of an affair. IF she kicked him out when she first found out....then it took them 6 years or so to reconcile to the point that my mom was willing to share a bed with him again. But I think she tried to get past it with him in the house for a couple years before that. Or maybe she only had suspicions of what he was doing for a couple years before that. Of course...reconciliation didn't last for them. My mom finally divorced him once and for all 8 years later. Then she died 3 years after that. I never knew any of the details of why, who, or when. I really only "know" because my mom's sisters shared what they knew/believed with my wife, while my mom was in the hospital dying. Why would they do that, you ask? My dad had flown back from Hawaii (he was living there) to see her after she had the heart attack that killed her. Her sisters thought she wouldn't want that SOB in the same room with her. 

Now I am regularly regaled with stories of how I am worse than my father.


----------



## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

thebadguy said:


> It has been a while. Yesterday was a kind of good day. Wife was going to look at new couches and called to ask if I would come too. I realize she sees this as 'reaching out'. She has not erupted in a couple weeks and has been civil for that long. A combination of everyone in the house getting the flu and me throwing my back out a few days ago. Things have been all over the place as I assume anyone who has read this thread from the beginning would expect.
> 
> Since I last wrote, W got a part time night job for a few months. That was good for me being able to recover some of my own energy and recover some of the closeness to my kids by her having to give up some of the care giving. She has since quit that job. I would have quit that job too. Now she has a new, much more flexible, and promising part time job.
> 
> ...


I really can't fathom why you stay with your wife. It seems you can't reconcile that you cheated on her, and that guilt is keeping you from doing the best thing - for both of you, and the kids. 

You need IC to help mitigate those feeling of guilt and obligation.


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Acabado said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted by *dogman*
> ...


You really have al the advice you need in the posts above.

Now process them in actions. 

You need a new life. This is nothing, it will virtually kill yourself. 

You need to be forgiven, you need to forgive yourself. I don't know if you are religious, but that is where you can find remission. Go get it.


----------



## standinginthegap (Jan 16, 2014)

There is nothing you can do but God can. Give the situation to him pray that He will give your wife a forgiving heart, and to start healing your wife because she needs to be healed of the heart that you have caused her, even if you are truly sorry she need to be healed first. Take your petition to God and remember that with man this is impossible but with God all things are possible.


----------



## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

standinginthegap said:


> There is nothing you can do but God can. Give the situation to him pray that He will give your wife a forgiving heart, and to start healing your wife because she needs to be healed of the heart that you have caused her, even if you are truly sorry she need to be healed first. Take your petition to God and remember that with man this is impossible but with God all things are possible.


Sorry but I feel that this is hurtful.

Pray all you want but DO, take action Badguy. You will never be able to make her happy. You need to be sorry but do not be humiliated for years. That is no example of a man to demonstrate to your children. Humble but strong.


----------



## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

dogman said:


> Sorry but I feel that this is hurtful.
> 
> Pray all you want but DO, take action Badguy. You will never be able to make her happy. You need to be sorry but do not be humiliated for years. That is no example of a man to demonstrate to your children. Humble but strong.


I agree. Prayer can't hurt. But it shouldn't keep you from doing what needs to be done.


----------



## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Divorce her already. Not sure if ive ever seen someone put their finger in the light socket more than you. IT will NOT get better.

Has she taken the ea to sexting yet? PA?


----------



## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

I have just read your entire thread. What a very sad story. 

If what you say is correct, you are soon going to see the effects of your interactions with your wife coming out in your kids. I think it is a very real possibility they will grow up hating both of you. Their mum for creating such a drama ridden childhood for them, and you for being such a wet blanket doormat and never standing up to her. And most importantly, not standing up for them. 

What a madly disfunctional life you are showing them. If you are going to choose to remain in this existence, it is time you converted the basement into a small apartment for yourself. You NEED a bed and a room in your house. 

You are showing her, and the kids, that you deserve NOTHING. They accept you have less worth than they do in the house and home you pay for/live in. 

For god's sake, stick up for yourself. Man up! You are perpetuating the notion that no one needs to respect you. Your needs (and wants) are non existent. And if they did exist, who cares!!???


----------



## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Yes, you are not leading your family. And your kids are losing respect for you. 

Do you want them to end up with a cheater or a doormat?

Because they see and learn from what you do.


----------

