# Why are women afraid to stand up against porn?



## triggerhappy

this is not against any particular man in here, but instead for women in general. Excuse my grammatical errors, English is my second language.


I read some of the threads here in total and utter disbelief. I mean total shock! 

I really don't even know where to begin....


Porn is not anyone's God-given right. I see women making excuses for their husbands, saying they could watch porn only x times a week, and only view pictures, or "pre-recorded porn", they can't view live web cams, etc. :scratchhead:

What the hell is going on with our society? why are women afraid to put their foot down and give ultimatums? is it because they are really afraid of being left? is someone who chooses pron over your feelings really worth keeping and fighting for?

I read many threads where women come here pouring their hearts out about the hurt they feel over finding out their husband is watching porn, forget about being addicted to it. Obviously, the husband was aware how much it would hurt his partner before they even got married, I'm sure every couple discusses it before they make their life-long commitment, yet some male members here quickly jump to defend porn seem to overlook the fact that it's a betrayal because they are so selfishly defending their right to view it, without stopping for one second to think about the woman's feelings. They quickly turn it into a topic where the woman wants to have "control". What's so bad about wanting to have control in your marriage? the reason a lot of marriages fail is because people LOSE control over their marriages. You better believe I'm going to want to control certain aspects of our marriage, and guess what? there's nothing wrong with that! anyone who screams bloody murder over control is someone you should not trust to begin with. Anyone who cries over "MY privacy" is someone who is not ready and shouldn't be in a long-term committed relationship. 

This is the part I don't ever get... if you knew your wife or gf doesn't like porn, and you know it hurts her why are you in a relationship or marriage with her to begin with? do you realizing you're fraudulently leading this person on to believe that you are not the person who she thought she married, or moved in with? I see many men who knowingly enter a relationship aware their wife or gf doesn't want to be with someone who views porn, and when they get caught they try to defend it like they're entitled to view it, like it's scientifically their God-given right (like the air they breath) to have access to it. If they only knew how sick this makes them look, how extremely pathetic they are.


Oh I know I'm going to get blasted for this, and I don't care! if you have a spouse who is hurt by porn and you continue to watch it, or sneak watching it behind their back, guess what? you have a problem! don't try turning it around by telling them to accept it, or to relax it's just sex, or just porn, because it's not. Admit to yourself, without being so defensive that it breaks up marriages, for whatever reason, it breaks them up, so why not just give it up?! if you can't then you have an addiction. Anything you cannot give up IS AN ADDICTION! 

I really don't care what men have to say to me because I'm so mad that women are toptoeing around the topic, trying not to upset the pro-porn crusaders for fear of being viewed as the one with the problem. Isn't that crazy, though? women are being berated for not allowing their husbands to have full access to porn at home, in the office, the car, anywhere! does that seem crazy to you? because it is!! 

Please ladies, stand up for yourselves, don't accept this because you don't have to. What are you so afraid of losing? a guy who puts his desire for porn before your feelings of hurt? 

This has gotten to the point of pure ridiculousness, and I can't believe women have become literally afraid to have a voice in this matter. If you're not ok with porn, throw the husband or bf out, or move out! let them jerkoff in their mothers basement to porn and video games all they want. Let them! let them be all alone in the world so they could feel like the losers they are. Let them!!!:scratchhead:


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## aribabe

I don't have any stands against porn.
I watch it, probably more often than my husband does honestly, which is at least twice a week for me.
My stand against porn is bringing pornishness into our bedroom.
I can't deal with that
Luckily, it hasn't been an issue
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink

I like porn and have no problems with my husband watching porn. Now, if he watched gay porn I might become concerned.

Years ago, we were watching porn and I saw a couple who had hooked themselves onto monkey bar kind of contraption. at the tim our daughter had a bunk bed. Wooo hoo I said we have got to try that.

I feel sorry for the husbands who's wives are threatened by images of people having sex. What is there to be threatened by? Being married doesn't make us blind. Porn is meant to be stimulating and it is. Men are visual creatures and images of people having sex is arousing. Just because I see someone attractive doesn't mean I'm wishing he was the guy laying next to me, and same for men. 

What turns me off, insecurity. I can't stand when either men or women are so easily threatened by competition. I love competition and encourage my husband to flirt. The fact that other women might be interested in him kind give him an edge, a hint of danger. I like that!


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## Thundarr

You make a good distinction trigger. A lot of this has to do with boundaries within the relationship and when a woman (or man) has issues with the SO watching porn. 

What I've seen in a lot of porn threads at TAM is the scenario you pointed out where the husband usually watches porn and doesn't want sex with the wife yet the poster takes it out on everyone else rather than setting a personal boundary and dealing with their own husband.

I didn't see you mention anything about couples watching porn together which I personally think is fine provided both want to watch it.


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## triggerhappy

If couples want to watch porn together than all the power to them. I'm exclusively discussing women who are hurt by it, (no matter for what reasons, they are hurt, and no one can change that, and they don't have to change that, or accept it) and men who not only justify it, and feel entitled to it, but will villanize the woman for taking away his precious porn.


Maybe it's just me, and it shouldn't be just me, but I would leave in a heart-beat. I would run and never look back. Yes, it's that critical.


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## Hortensia

I don't have a problem with my H watching porn at all. It doesn't constitute a threat to me. It's just a show for Pete's sake ! Forbidding him to watch it is no different than forbidding him to watch baseball or playing video games on the comp or drinking beer. Just because we ladies aren't as much into it doesn't mean the husbands are doing anything wrong. Porn is not any more cheating than us wives watching a soap opera and drooling over the good looking male lead. Stop being childish and be naughtier in the bedroom- I bet your men will watch porn less.


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## Cletus

I thought about making a reply to your screed, then realized that you didn't really want one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> You make a good distinction trigger. A lot of this has to do with boundaries within the relationship and when a woman (or man) has issues with the SO watching porn.


:iagree:
I think she has a very good point. I don't agree with everything , but the issues of boundaries being set is a good, legitimate one.
If my wife hates porn, then why should I rub it in her face?
Its like I hate a certain type of food and she always cooks it because she likes it.
Its a bit tricky to navigate, but these issues should be settled before marriage.


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## Cletus

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheStranger

triggerhappy said:


> This has gotten to the point of pure ridiculousness, and I can't believe women have become literally afraid to have a voice in this matter. If you're not ok with porn, throw the husband or bf out, or move out! let them jerkoff in their mothers basement to porn and video games all they want. Let them! let them be all alone in the world so they could feel like the losers they are. Let them!!!:scratchhead:


Wow, the rage... 

It would be much healthier for your relationship if you consider his porn watching as a symptom of a bigger problem before trashing everything in your path like a hurricane. It usually is in a marriage where she's neglected because of it. If you don't feel neglected in any way, let him be.


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## SimplyAmorous

Frankly I'd be upset if my husband didn't like a little porn.....

Though in our marriage he has never...not for a day...used it over me. It is the one & only thing he struggled to hide from me though - those days I was trying to play "Mrs good girl christian" and judged everything porn related as scum of the earth - but of course I still loved my Hot romance novels & R rated sex scenes (a little bit of a hypocrite at play there I guess)...

Although I knew he had tons of Playboys in his youth, enjoyed women dancing solo (even though he never set foot in a strip joint)...deep down I just never questioned his devotion and want of me... he was at my beck & call... In our case, I was more neglecting him!! 

I did do some shaming when I would find files on his computer years ago, I even cried, he struggled to stop looking but he couldn't do it. I don't think women realize the pull to this...Men have 10 times ++ more testosterone cursing through their veins over women...this affects them in ways women will never understand.... causes them to be more visual as well.

I myself feel I got a "taste of this" in midlife... I had some kind of hormonal surge - even had physical symptoms in my body, It was so bad, I was questioning if I had a sex addiction [email protected]#$ Funny time looking back. It was like ....







Hot damn.... PORN all of a sudden became ELECTRIC TO ME.... If he didn't allow me to view it - hell, I might have left him... I was enjoying that to the high heavens... but all WITH HIM.. I even rented it ... boy that was a fun time... we save every orgasm for each other...something I learned he did all of our marriage. I was awed by that . 

We only like the soft stuff.. 

I think women who feel as strongly as yourself.. .the best you will do in finding a wide variety of men who feel the same - is in conservative religious circles and even then... there is a huge struggle for many...feeling shamed, evil, sinful.. to have their wives add to this... I don't know. ... even on the largest Christian Sex forum >> The Marriage Bed  ....it's interesting to note...out of every forum topic.. the Pornography section has 2,000 + more posts than any other. 

Why books like this ...with such a title -hold the truth of the matter...

Every Man's Battle: Winning the War on Sexual Temptation One Victory at a Time 

I feel every marriage who has this struggle owes it to each other to hear BOTH sides...Yes, listen to your man too. This wonderful book written by a husband and wife....will carry you both through this honest passage of understanding both sides.......this wife was ready to leave over PORN, but decided that would be too easy.... so she decided to hear him out...I believe he gives it up in the end, but not because she demanded it, but because she listened, she heard him... plus he listened to her... it was his choice. A win for both and without resentment. 

Love and Pornography: Dealing with Porn and Saving your Relationship: 



> Love and Pornography chronicles a couple's struggle to find the openness, honesty and integrity to deal with a subject that is detested by some yet captivating, even compulsive to others.
> The authors' compassionate nonjudgmental message will defuse the polarized dialogue around porn. Providing the tools to understand the needs on both sides, this ground-breaking approach promotes the insight and awareness necessary to move beyond the conflict and emerge with a relationship stronger, more loving, and more resilient than ever before.


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## triggerhappy

Hortensia said:


> It's just a show for Pete's sake ! Forbidding him to watch it is no different than forbidding him to watch baseball or playing video games on the comp or drinking beer. Just because we ladies aren't as much into it



We're not talking about people who aren't "much into it", as you put it, it's about women who are deeply hurt by it and do feel threatened by it. Who is anyone to tell them to get over it? 

If you like it and allow it, yes I used the word "allow" omg, kill me, then that's ok, but if someone is hurt by it, and they set boundaries before the relationship took off, and those boundaries were crossed and they were betrayed, how can you expect a wife not to have a strong emotional reaction to it? :scratchhead:


Just replace porn with something that hurts you deeply, and then insert the example you wrote down about not allowing your man to have a beer.. a comparison which is ridiculous and see how you would feel. It's easy to say you wouldn't mind porn when you have no problem with it to begin with.


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## john_lord_b3

This is interesting (from an observer's point of view).. a lady come here saying out loud "I dont like porn, and you women should not be liking porn, and you men should not be forcing women to like porn"..

Then other women telling the lady "hey, hold your hourses, I am a woman but I enjoy porn.."

I believe this is one of the strength of Western democracy and its respect for individual freedom. I think many women in this forum thinks like this "Hey, I don't let MEN dictates me about what I like and what I should not like. Why should I let a WOMAN dictates me?"

Modern Western woman are not "..toptoeing around the topic, trying not to upset the pro-porn crusaders for fear of being viewed as the one with the problem.."

They value their freedom to choose, and the freedom of others to choose. Not because they are afraid of "pro-porn crusaders".

The responses on this forum has proven it.


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## triggerhappy

but why should someone LEARN to accept something that is hurtful and unnecessary, in the grand scheme of things? 

What I'm saying is that if from the start a woman has problems with porn and has made it clear, WHY should she LEARN to accept it later in the marriage after she has invested her time and trust? the woman's feelings are being totally dismissed just because he feels it totally necessary to watch porn. 

And just because you would be upset if your husband didn't like a little porn doesn't mean that that's law.


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## triggerhappy

john_lord_b3 said:


> This is interesting (from an observer's point of view).. a lady come here saying out lout "I dont like porn, and you women should not be liking porn, and you men should not be forcing women to like porn"..
> 
> Then other women telling the lady "hey, hold your hourses, I am a woman but I enjoy porn.."
> 
> I believe this is one of the strength of Western democracy and its respect for individual freedom. I think many women in this forum thinks like this "Hey, I don't let MEN dictates me about what I like and what I should not like. Why should I let a WOMAN dictates me?"
> 
> Modern Western woman are not "..toptoeing around the topic, trying not to upset the pro-porn crusaders for fear of being viewed as the one with the problem.."
> 
> They value their freedom to choose, and the freedom of others to choose what's best for them. Not because they are afraid of "pro-porn crusaders".
> 
> The responses on this forum has proven it.


The only thing it has proven is that x amount of people responded to this thread. Obviously, the women answering are ok with porn, I am talking about the women who aren't and are hurt by it, for the millionth time. The ones who come here in shambles, upset. Those haven't posted yet, so don't make your decree about the statistics about this thread when those women haven't responded.


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## triggerhappy

And just to clarify I didn't say that I don't like porn and that all women should not like porn. I never said that so don't twist my words. I notice that goes on a lot around here, people like to go around in semantics. I said that if a woman is hurt by porn, she shouldn't be forced to accept it.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

> Originally posted by: Triggerhappy
> This is the part I don't ever get... if you knew your wife or gf doesn't like porn, and you know it hurts her why are you in a relationship or marriage with her to begin with?



If you knew your wife or gf doesn't like:

gambling
drinking
smoking
dope
your family
oral sex
your ex-wife
and you know it hurts her why are you in a relationship or marriage with her to begin with?

There are ALWAYS things about the other person, their life, their views, their beliefs that we aren't going to like. Everybody is different, that is what makes them interesting!

The problem isn't the THING that YOU dislike, it is how you choose to handle it (or ignore it and act like a martyr) that creates the 'problem'. Nobody is "forcing" these women to accept porn, they are free agents who can speak up about it, or walk out the door if it's a deal-breaker. 

The fact that they're NOT walking out the door tells me that it's not really a DEAL-BREAKER. They just dislike it.


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## chattycathy

Porn isn't pretty.

It is based in cruelty. Even if the actors are doing it willingly, it is hurting them. Even if you think a man is't messed up watching it.....it does mess with his mind. His soul is a bit less beautiful from watching it.

It is a money making machine that has a huge percentage of the population standing up for it.


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## john_lord_b3

triggerhappy said:


> The only thing it has proven is that x amount of people responded to this thread. *Obviously, the women answering are ok with porn*,


Yes, indeed. And why they are answering? Because, like I said above, they know it's their individual freedom of choice to like or dislike porn.



> ...I am talking about the women who aren't and are hurt by it, for the millionth time. The ones who come here in shambles, upset. Those haven't posted yet, so don't make your decree about the statistics about this thread when those women haven't responded.


Fair enough. Anyway, while you're waiting for those women who think alike with you to post here, maybe it's a good idea to re-read the posts of women who had stated why they are not offended to porn. You obviously understand why some women dislikes porn (due to the inexcusable behavior of their egoist partner who put porn above relationships). But it would be useful as well to understand the mindset of those women whom are not anti-porn.

We learn something new everyday.

I wish you good luck Mrs. Trigger. I am not bashing you, in fact I do understand that it's difficult to express your thoughts in a language other than your natural language. English is also not my natural language, it's my 3rd language.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

> Originally posted by: ChattyCathy
> Even if you think a man is't messed up watching it.....it does mess with his mind


I disagree and you are certainly entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. It doesn't make EITHER of us 'right' as it is just that...opinion, not fact.


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## Thundarr

john_lord_b3 said:


> This is interesting (from an observer's point of view).. a lady come here saying out loud "I dont like porn, and you women should not be liking porn, and you men should not be forcing women to like porn"..
> 
> Then other women telling the lady "hey, hold your hourses, I am a woman but I enjoy porn.."


jb3, while I agree trigger obviously doesn't like porn, I didn't read her post as you describe. I read that she's outraged that women who are hurt by their SO and porn don't take a stand. Women who are not compromising aren't the ones frustrating her. It's very similar to many posters to come to TAM and won't stand up for themselves in other ways. Likely these women think their SO will choose freedom to watch porn over them and the relationship. I would not. I'm glad my wife will watch it on occasion and doesn't snoop around to see if I've watched it (which I don't often), but if it was a big problem for her I just wouldn't watch it.

It really is about boundaries and compatibility. Trigger would not be compatible with someone who's not willing to give up porn and that's ok. There's plenty of men who would say ok honey so long as I'm not getting shutdown then I won't watch it. It's not actually a need. It's just nice

It's a matter of time before this thread head south though


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## 2ofus

I'm 42 married and I like watching porn, I watch it by myself and with my husband. I don't think there is anything wrong with me. Sex is an amazing thing and I think anything that can help with that is great.

I also think that if more people invested more time in there sexual relationship there would be a lot fewer people having affairs.

Just my 2 cents worth.


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## Mr B

triggerhappy said:


> And just to clarify I didn't say that I don't like porn and that all women should not like porn. I never said that so don't twist my words. I notice that goes on a lot around here, people like to go around in semantics. I said that if a woman is hurt by porn, she shouldn't be forced to accept it.


They don't "stand up against porn" because in many marriages, especially long term marriages if the husband has come to prefer porn over partner sex then "standing up" to it means leaving the marriage and many women, either because of children or financial reasons do not want to have to go through (and put their kids through) the hardships of being a single mom. In older women the problem is a fear of loneliness as the chances for women over 50 or 55 years to find another decent relationship are very slim. For many women in these situations acceptance, or at least learning to live with the porn is the only option.


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## Caribbean Man

triggerhappy said:


> I said that if a woman is hurt by porn, she shouldn't be forced to accept it.


This :iagree: fully with. I understand exactly where you are coming from.
A person's spouse hates something, anything, at least some consideration should be given to their feelings.

But I think the more important thing is to discuss these issues in a rational way that wouldn't cause the unnecessary contention that comes with it.


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## triggerhappy

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> If you knew your wife or gf doesn't like:
> 
> gambling
> drinking
> smoking
> dope
> your family
> oral sex
> your ex-wife
> and you know it hurts her why are you in a relationship or marriage with her to begin with?
> 
> There are ALWAYS things about the other person, their life, their views, their beliefs that we aren't going to like. Everybody is different, that is what makes them interesting!
> 
> The problem isn't the THING that YOU dislike, it is how you choose to handle it (or ignore it and act like a martyr) that creates the 'problem'. Nobody is "forcing" these women to accept porn, they are free agents who can speak up about it, or walk out the door if it's a deal-breaker.
> 
> The fact that they're NOT walking out the door tells me that it's not really a DEAL-BREAKER. They just dislike it.



gambling
drinking
smoking
dope
your family
oral sex
your ex-wife



and these are unacceptable as well.



> There are ALWAYS things about the other person, their life, their views, their beliefs that we aren't going to like.


 You're minimizing the issue here. It's like you're comparing all these issues to snoring or something. That I can deal with, but drugs, any kind of addiction, no way. And just so you know, most women wouldn't negotiate with gambling, drug addiction, etc, I think it's safe to say anyone in a relationship would find that unacceptable. yet porn is negotiated out of fear. I never met or heard of anyone who said, ok, you can do a little bit of coke 3x's a week for the rest of your life and our relationship is healthy. They are very poor comparisons.


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## john_lord_b3

Thundarr said:


> jb3, while I agree trigger obviously doesn't like porn, I didn't read her post as you describe. I read that she's outraged that women who are hurt by their SO and porn don't take a stand. Women who are not compromising aren't the ones frustrating her. It's very similar to many posters to come to TAM and won't stand up for themselves in other ways. Likely these women think their SO will choose freedom to watch porn over them and the relationship. I would not. I'm glad my wife will watch it on occasion and doesn't snoop around to see if I've watched it (which I don't often), but if it was a big problem for her I just wouldn't watch it.
> 
> It really is about boundaries and compatibility. Trigger would not be compatible with someone who's not willing to give up porn and that's ok. There's plenty of men who would say ok honey so long as I'm not getting shutdown then I won't watch it. It's not actually a need. It's just nice
> 
> It's a matter of time before this thread head south though


:smthumbup: yea, like I said, we learn something new everyday. I am all with you in the matter of establishing boundaries and compatibilities within a relationship.

Mrs. Trigger is not a natural English speaker and so do I, and maybe you are a natural, and maybe that's why we read her post differently.


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## triggerhappy

> It really is about boundaries and compatibility. Trigger would not be compatible with someone who's not willing to give up porn and that's ok. There's plenty of men who would say ok honey so long as I'm not getting shutdown then I won't watch it. It's not actually a need. It's just nice


 Thank you, that is all I am trying to say. I am in no way condemning people who mutually enjoy it or don't mind their spouses watching it. Who cares if they do.


> It's a matter of time before this thread head south though


 I hope it doesn't. I hope people can learn from this thread because it's an important topic that needs to be addressed. 



caribman:


> A person's spouse hates something, anything, at least some consideration should be given to their feelings.


 This is what I am saying. It could be about anything.


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## Maricha75

Well, I am one woman who does NOT watch porn. My husband is one man who does NOT watch porn. Why? Because we agree that it has NO place in our marriage. And, I am a stubborn woman...very stubborn. If he were to watch it behind my back, I would give him one chance to get rid of it. If he chose to keep watching it, then I would absolutely let him continue... in his own house. Because I am one who, no matter how much I may love him, would NOT put up with it. There are a few other things I would not put up with as well, but this is one. We agreed together, from the very beginning, that it has no place in our marriage. As Thundarr pointed out, it's about boundaries. This is one of mine. We've had boundaries crossed on other subjects and have worked through those issues. And since then, those boundaries have not been crossed. But no, I am not one who is afraid to stand up for myself when it comes to porn. And those who have come on here when they are hurting over it, I haven't EVER told them that they need to get over it or anything. And if it IS a deal breaker, then they should NOT be afraid to stand up.


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## triggerhappy

john_lord_b3 said:


> :smthumbup: yea, like I said, we learn something new everyday. I am all with you in the matter of establishing boundaries and compatibilities within a relationship.
> 
> Mrs. Trigger is not a natural English speaker and so do I, and maybe you are a natural, and maybe that's why we read her post differently.


yes, i struggle to eloquently post my feelings, and i come off as angry, but I'm not. I'm just passionate about the subject because I see so many women hurt by this everyday. My mom, my best friend, women here, on the net in general. It's so sad. I feel the need to fight for them in a way.


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## triggerhappy

Maricha75 said:


> Well, I am one woman who does NOT watch porn. My husband is one man who does NOT watch porn. Why? Because we agree that it has NO place in our marriage. And, I am a stubborn woman...very stubborn. If he were to watch it behind my back, I would give him one chance to get rid of it. If he chose to keep watching it, then I would absolutely let him continue... in his own house. Because I am one who, no matter how much I may love him, would NOT put up with it. There are a few other things I would not put up with as well, but this is one. We agreed together, from the very beginning, that it has no place in our marriage. As Thundarr pointed out, it's about boundaries. This is one of mine. We've had boundaries crossed on other subjects and have worked through those issues. And since then, those boundaries have not been crossed. But no, I am not one who is afraid to stand up for myself when it comes to porn. And those who have come on here when they are hurting over it, I haven't EVER told them that they need to get over it or anything. And if it IS a deal breaker, then they should NOT be afraid to stand up.


thank you. 
That is all that I'm saying. I'm not trying to smack the porn out of anyone's hands. I'm just trying to understand why women who from the beginning set boundaries are made out to be the ones who have the problem.


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## Tony55

triggerhappy said:


> Please ladies, stand up for yourselves, don't accept this because you don't have to. What are you so afraid of losing? a guy who puts his desire for porn before your feelings of hurt?


Personally, I agree with you. I find reserved women, who don't compromise their own morality much more interesting and attractive. There was a time when we men looked to women for that stable, soft, sensible, balance to help round out our lives, and maybe even keep us on the right track, but those days may be gone. These past 10 to 15 years we've watched women slowly creep into behavior that was once only considered in the realm of men, from topless bars, to porn, to girls gone wild, and very, very, easy one night stands (exceptionally easy), and the list goes on. They're slowing becoming men, and with that comes the acceptance of 'man' things, and to do the opposite would be to betray the sisterhoods struggle to be men in dresses with mega boobs, extensions, and woo hoo, chugg another beer baby... so be it.

We men are dogs, or pigs, (we know, we've heard women calling us that for decades), but we won, we brought you over to the dark side, you've become one of us. Grab your 50 Shades of Gray, and to hell with that hubby, let him go look at his porn, you've got more important things to do, woo hoo!

We're all stuck in a world of woo-girls, that's the new reality, but believe me, there's still a place in this world for soft, sweet, stable women who, through their *true nature*, make us better men.

T


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## Drover

why are you hurt and threatened by porn? sounds like you're taking your own issues out on him.


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## Drover

but WHY are they hurt by it?


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## Thundarr

triggerhappy said:


> thank you.
> That is all that I'm saying. I'm not trying to smack the porn out of anyone's hands. I'm just trying to understand why women who from the beginning set boundaries are made out to be the ones who have the problem.


I think the frustration from many is the exact same as yours. It's that they want to blame porn more than address that their partner is choosing it over them. Especially when they're afraid to take a stand with their spouse which seem to be when the blame is deflected off of the spouse and onto the legality of porn in general. Maybe I bias on occasion though.


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## triggerhappy

I appreciate your post, T. Thank you.


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## john_lord_b3

Thundarr said:


> I think the frustration from many is the exact same as yours. It's that they want to blame porn more than address that their partner is choosing it over them. Especially when they're afraid to take a stand with their spouse which seem to be when *the blame is deflected off of the spouse and onto the legality of porn in general*. Maybe I bias on occasion though.


Yes, I get your point here.

It's good Mrs. Trigger already clarified that she is not here to "slap the porn off anyone's finger".

I also made the statement that it is an "inexcusable behavior of their egoist partner who put porn above relationships", which clearly indicates that I am not a "pro porn crusader" because I disapprove it when porn becomes more important than the partner's feelings.

Therefore I agree with you that the problem is not the legality of porn itself in general, but the improper behavior of people who are inconsiderate about their partner's feelings.

BTW, you're a barbarian! Thundarr the barbarian! Now I remember your nickname from an 80s cartoon!


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## Thundarr

john_lord_b3 said:


> BTW, you're a barbarian! Thundarr the barbarian! Now I remember your nickname from an 80s cartoon!


Hey.... are you Ookla the Mok? Is that you?


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## CuddleBug

When my wifee is in the mood for "us time" 3x or more per week, I don't even think about porn, being totally honest with you. But when it's 1x every 2 or more weeks, then when I get really in the mood, I view it to get it out of my system. Not proud of this but I can't handle the blue balls indefinitely.

Now when I was in my late teens to early 20's, sex all the time and porn was my daily release. Walking hormone back then. By the time I was in my late 20's, that problem was no longer controlling me and now that I'm in my 30's, I control for the most part when and if I view porn.

To my knowledge, my wife doesn't view porn but if she did, I would be interested to know what variety she is viewing.


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## Tigger

To me, if people in a relationship want to watch porn and the other doesn't mind, it is fine. Nobody cares.

You hear about a lot of younger guys who prefer their porn to having a relationship or they can't function in bed because of so much porn use or the unrealistic bedroom expectations.

I guess my problem with most of the porn I have seen is that it is so mean and disrespectful to the woman/women. 

Even the promo is mean like watch his guy manhandle this dirty sl$t. 
The porn is clearly for the men. The guys are really unattractive. They don't seem to do anything remotely pleasurable for the women.

I think some women are hurt because of the secrecy involved so many times. It is not something the guy wants to share with his partner or invite her to watch. It is something he wants to do alone just for himself so he can pretend he is having sex with these people and getting off to that.

Then there is the idea that the porn is for men or that it is also for the woman if he gets to participate.

He isn't so keen on the woman getting off by herself to some stud without his participation. It seems rather one sided.

These are some observations from many porn threads I've read over the years.

There there are the men who prefer the porn over their spouse.

My husband and I casually discussed porn before we got married and he said he didn't really care for it and just watched it once in awhile. I said the same. It never was even an issue.

It wasn't until we married and moved in together, I found out what a lie that was. I found it odd he kept turning me down for sex.

He kept saying he was tired or not in the mood and finally I looked at his history and although he was too tired or not in the mood, he was using porn every day, sometimes a few times a day. No wonder he wasn't in the mood.

The most hurtful part was realizing that on days that he turned me down, he waited until I left to go to the store or went to bed and self serviced himself.

He started deleting his history and I put a key logger on his machine and monitored it for a few months. He said he was going to stop and he didn't.

It got to where he was setting up virtual machines to store his wank materials. He went to pretty great lengths to hide it which he had to because I'm in IT and can find anything.

Eventually, my attitude changed. I uninstalled the key logger and decided to let it go. I was so hurt and turned off that it really didn't matter to me if we had relations anymore. I still don't care. I know he is still doing it. I do turn him down sometimes. I figure it is ok as he has his porn and doesn't really need me.


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## lisab0105

Hortensia said:


> I don't have a problem with my H watching porn at all. It doesn't constitute a threat to me. It's just a show for Pete's sake ! Forbidding him to watch it is no different than forbidding him to watch baseball or playing video games on the comp or drinking beer. Just because we ladies aren't as much into it doesn't mean the husbands are doing anything wrong. Porn is not any more cheating than us wives watching a soap opera and drooling over the good looking male lead. Stop being childish and be naughtier in the bedroom- I bet your men will watch porn less.


Not true. Plenty of women on this site try everything to get their man's attention away from porn and back on them. Porn is not like watching a soap opera. Men use porn to fantasize about other women that is not their significant other. A lot of times , they are so addicted to the variety they neglect their women. It's also a gateway for some of men (some men) into cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thundarr

Tigger said:


> There there are the men who prefer the porn over their spouse.
> 
> My husband and I casually discussed porn before we got married and he said he didn't really care for it and just watched it once in awhile. I said the same. It never was even an issue.
> 
> It wasn't until we married and moved in together, I found out what a lie that was. I found it odd he kept turning me down for sex.
> 
> He kept saying he was tired or not in the mood and finally I looked at his history and although he was too tired or not in the mood, he was using porn every day, sometimes a few times a day. No wonder he wasn't in the mood.
> 
> The most hurtful part was realizing that on days that he turned me down, he waited until I left to go to the store or went to bed and self serviced himself.
> 
> He started deleting his history and I put a key logger on his machine and monitored it for a few months. He said he was going to stop and he didn't.
> 
> It got to where he was setting up virtual machines to store his wank materials. He went to pretty great lengths to hide it which he had to because I'm in IT and can find anything.
> 
> Eventually, my attitude changed. I uninstalled the key logger and decided to let it go. I was so hurt and turned off that it really didn't matter to me if we had relations anymore. I still don't care. I know he is still doing it. I do turn him down sometimes. I figure it is ok as he has his porn and doesn't really need me.


You have every right to be enraged Tigger. He should have just dropped porn when it was a problem for you especially since he mis-represented his like for it. You're right by the way, that some guys on TAM will defend that it's their right to watch it no matter what their wives think. Well that's fine for them but not for me and not for you.

Addictions of any kind are marriage destroyers whether it's alcohol or drugs or pornography. Your able to recognize where the problem lays which is in him choosing it over you. Don't let ANYONE tell you to back down from holding him accountable.


----------



## Anon Pink

Trigger I am so sorry for the incredible hurt you must feel. Personally, I don't think Id be able to stay sane in the same situation. I cannot imagine, indeed cannot believe that a healthy male would take visual wanking over warm willing wifely flesh. Trigger, I don't think the issue is porn. Porn is the symptom. If he won't go into therapy individually, which is what he needs desperately, then you must enter therapy for your own sanity. Clearly you two love each other but your husbands avoidance of real intimacy with the woman he loves is not going to go away all by itself.

Getting him to stop the porn isn't the issue. Finding out why he would take porn over a real woman..., Thats a huge problem.

Dont allow this man to tear you down and make you feel less of a woman. This is HIS problem, not yours. But his problem is affecting you, terribly.

Honey, remember the key words. Boundaries. Firnly stated. He seeks help or he seeks another domocile.

Hating porn is like the wife of the alcoholic hating booze. It's not booze at issue, it's the disease at issue.


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## Lyris

I don't think being in a relationship means you get to dictate private behaviour, if it doesn't directly affect you. And 'I don't like it, it makes me uncomfortable' is not being directly affected.

If someone is watching porn in preference to having sex with their partner, then the first thing that should be looked at is the quality of the sexual connection between the couples. And then something be done to improve that, not by banning porn, but by working out ways to make sex more appealing. 

I'm going to use myself as an example. My husband is most attracted to me when I am enthusiastic, paying a lot of attention to our sex life and fit and in shape. If I put on a lot of weight, ignored him and was unenthusiastic or inhibited, then I think he'd start watching a lot more porn in preference to having sex with me. 

And I don't think blaming the porn or banning it would do one thing to fix things. 

So no, I totally disagree with your OP. If a woman is that upset by porn, she needs to examine why she feels that way and if it's truly affecting her relationship. If a man is watching porn rather than having sex with his wife, there's a problem in the relationship. Is his wife not interested in sex more than once or twice a week? Will she only have sex in a very limited kind of way? Is she refusing to do any of the work, initiate, be open to fantasies etc? I have seen on this board many men with wives they love who won't have sex with them. Or who will only have very vanilla missionary position sex. Or who won't allow themselves to be touched, or give oral or any other pretty mild extras.

Frankly, I think the men who stay in these marriages are of superhuman moral fortitude (Cletus, I hope this doesn't embarrass you and let me know if it does, I'll take this out, but you are a great example of this). If they need to watch a bit of porn to get through, then too bad if their wives don't like it.


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## lisab0105

lol People defending porn saying it must be the wife's fault for being boring is like someone saying if the wife had done more, he wouldn't have cheated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tigger

Lyris said:


> I don't think being in a relationship means you get to dictate private behaviour, if it doesn't directly affect you. And 'I don't like it, it makes me uncomfortable' is not being directly affected.
> 
> If someone is watching porn in preference to having sex with their partner, then the first thing that should be looked at is the quality of the sexual connection between the couples. And then something be done to improve that, not by banning porn, but by working out ways to make sex more appealing.
> 
> I'm going to use myself as an example. My husband is most attracted to me when I am enthusiastic, paying a lot of attention to our sex life and fit and in shape. If I put on a lot of weight, ignored him and was unenthusiastic or inhibited, then I think he'd start watching a lot more porn in preference to having sex with me.
> 
> And I don't think blaming the porn or banning it would do one thing to fix things.
> 
> So no, I totally disagree with your OP. If a woman is that upset by porn, she needs to examine why she feels that way and if it's truly affecting her relationship. *If a man is watching porn rather than having sex with his wife, there's a problem in the relationship. *Is his wife not interested in sex more than once or twice a week? Will she only have sex in a very limited kind of way? Is she refusing to do any of the work, initiate, be open to fantasies etc? *I have seen on this board many men with wives they love who won't have sex with them. Or who will only have very vanilla missionary position sex. Or who won't allow themselves to be touched, or give oral or any other pretty mild extras.*
> 
> Frankly, I think the men who stay in these marriages are of superhuman moral fortitude (Cletus, I hope this doesn't embarrass you and let me know if it does, I'll take this out, but you are a great example of this). If they need to watch a bit of porn to get through, then too bad if their wives don't like it.


Then the man should put his big boy pants on and speak up and say what he would like in the bedroom rather than sneaking off and self serving.

As for wives not being interested, maybe he should do some self reflection and ask himself, if he has gained weight, is he enthusiastic, is he just boring in bed, does he have good hygiene, is he romantic at other times than when he is ready, is his ideal of foreplay a rub of his wee wee on her back and then hopping on?

Sorry, but women take far too much blame for things as it is and some men are far too willing to let them.

As for not dictating private behavior, I'm a bit an exhibitionist so that is ok as long as he doesn't know about it?


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## Thundarr

Lyris said:


> I don't think being in a relationship means you get to dictate private behaviour, if it doesn't directly affect you. And 'I don't like it, it makes me uncomfortable' is not being directly affected.
> 
> If someone is watching porn in preference to having sex with their partner, then the first thing that should be looked at is the quality of the sexual connection between the couples. And then something be done to improve that, not by banning porn, but by working out ways to make sex more appealing.
> 
> I'm going to use myself as an example. My husband is most attracted to me when I am enthusiastic, paying a lot of attention to our sex life and fit and in shape. If I put on a lot of weight, ignored him and was unenthusiastic or inhibited, then I think he'd start watching a lot more porn in preference to having sex with me.


The thing is in Trigger's case 
- he said he didn't really care for it and just watched it once in awhile 
- then he was turning her down for sex.
- then she says *The most hurtful part was realizing that on days that he turned me down, he waited until I left to go to the store or went to bed and self serviced himself.*

Maybe weight had some part of this but we don't really know if Trigger gained? Maybe she got more fit? It's a good quesiton though. Even if she changed physically then those "please lose weight or whatever" conversations are the first reaction. Not watching porn after denying sex to the wife and then whacking off.


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## Hortensia

lisab0105 said:


> Not true. Plenty of women on this site try everything to get their man's attention away from porn and back on them. Porn is not like watching a soap opera. Men use porn to fantasize about other women that is not their significant other. A lot of times , they are so addicted to the variety they neglect their women. It's also a gateway for some of men (some men) into cheating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lisa, all men fantasize about other women who are not their significant others from time to time. An attractive woman may pass on the street or may show up at his workplace. The guy may reach to the closest bathroom and release hinmself with that woman's image in his mind. The difference is, you would never know about it. But it doesn't mean that it can't happen.
Do you feel threaten by the women in the porn ? Why ? They can't jump out from the screen and steal your man. There's a higher chance with any woman passing him by on the street...what we gonna do next, keep them locked in the house? 
From my point of view, it IS kind of the same as watching any movie where the actor is hot. Don't you watch Brad Pitt, Leonardo Di Caprio, etc, in movies, and don't you, at least ONCE, think : "omg, he's so hot !" Does that make you a cheater? Should your H be threatened? I'm just saying we should just be realist about it...it is human to fantasize sometimes. As long as you don't act on it.
My isn't a sucker for porn. He says he is happy with our sex life. But sometimes, we would watch something together. Nothing wrong with it. I think forbidding them from watching would only make them want it more. 
I'm just surprised to see so many preconceptions on here.I just wish people were more open minded.


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## Drover

*Re: Re: Why are women afraid to stand up against porn?*



lisab0105 said:


> lol People defending porn saying it must be the wife's fault for being boring is like someone saying if the wife had done more, he wouldn't have cheated.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


lol People blaming all their marital problems on porn is like saying if it weren't for those darn nekkid pictures, my marriage would just be perfect.


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## Hortensia

Sorry about the mispells. My keyboard is getting old


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## Lyris

lisab0105 said:


> lol People defending porn saying it must be the wife's fault for being boring is like someone saying if the wife had done more, he wouldn't have cheated.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Yeah. Cause that is exactly what I said. 



Tigger said:


> Then the man should put his big boy pants on and speak up and say what he would like in the bedroom rather than sneaking off and self serving.
> 
> As for wives not being interested, maybe he should do some self reflection and ask himself, if he has gained weight, is he enthusiastic, is he just boring in bed, does he have good hygiene, is he romantic at other times than when he is ready, is his ideal of foreplay a rub of his wee wee on her back and then hopping on?
> 
> Sorry, but women take far too much blame for things as it is and some men are far too willing to let them.
> 
> As for not dictating private behavior, I'm a bit an exhibitionist so that is ok as long as he doesn't know about it?


I'm not saying someone shouldn't speak up. And what happens when they do, over and over, and get either shot down, or a kind of half-hearted change that lasts a few weeks? 

And if men have a responsibility to speak up, so do women. So if they are not interested in sex because their husbands are turning them off with bad hygiene or poor technique, they need to say so and require change.

I don't care what you do. If you're an exhibitionist and want to indulge that, tell your husband and do it. By 'private behaviour' I didn't mean secret. I meant solo activity.


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## Tigger

Maybe I am a little naive as it just never occurred to me that someone would prefer to spank it over being with a real life human.

But, no I certainly don't take the blame anymore for this.

I was absolutely devastated and hurt beyond belief to find this out just weeks after being married.


----------



## Tigger

Thundarr said:


> The thing is in Trigger's case
> - he said he didn't really care for it and just watched it once in awhile
> - then he was turning her down for sex.
> - then she says *The most hurtful part was realizing that on days that he turned me down, he waited until I left to go to the store or went to bed and self serviced himself.*
> 
> Maybe weight had some part of this but we don't really know if Trigger gained? Maybe she got more fit? It's a good quesiton though. Even if she changed physically then those "please lose weight or whatever" conversations are the first reaction. Not watching porn after denying sex to the wife and then whacking off.


We were newlyweds and I was in the best shape of my life so no excuses for spank boy.

I suspect he had been doing it all throughout the relationship but can't prove it.

People like to blame appearance but seriously, this happened to myself and a friend and both of us were models at one time.

Most women don't go off and f some other guy the moment her husband goes bald or gains 20lbs.


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## Thundarr

Tigger said:


> I was absolutely devastated and hurt beyond belief to find this out just weeks after being married.


If you discussed it before marriage (which you did) and he said he wasn't into it (yet he was) then it's betrayal. Plain and simple. It was a flat out lie. Other misrepresentations and bait and switch issues get blasted here. This one should too. 

There's nothing wrong with pornography under other circumstances. There's always something wrong with one spouse deceiving the other. Add to that, his porn masterbating is preferred to him over his wife. That's seems wrong.


----------



## Lyris

Thundarr said:


> The thing is in Trigger's case
> - he said he didn't really care for it and just watched it once in awhile
> - then he was turning her down for sex.
> - then she says *The most hurtful part was realizing that on days that he turned me down, he waited until I left to go to the store or went to bed and self serviced himself.*
> 
> Maybe weight had some part of this but we don't really know if Trigger gained? Maybe she got more fit? It's a good quesiton though. Even if she changed physically then those "please lose weight or whatever" conversations are the first reaction. Not watching porn after denying sex to the wife and then whacking off.


Thundarr I agree with you, that he should have talked first, but if it was a possibly hurtful conversation (you're too fat, you're not good in bed, I'm not attracted to you anymore) then I get why he didn't/wouldn't. Just as I understand why women react to poor hygiene, crappy technique or lack of connection by shutting down rather than working on things. 

And the lying...yeah, well I get that too. I think men and women have huge amounts of shame around sexuality and sexual desire. It's to big a mountain to pick at in this one post, but generally religion has a lot to answer for here.


----------



## Lyris

Tigger said:


> We were newlyweds and I was in the best shape of my life so no excuses for spank boy.
> 
> I suspect he had been doing it all throughout the relationship but can't prove it.
> 
> People like to blame appearance but seriously, this happened to myself and a friend and both of us were models at one time.
> 
> Most women don't go off and f some other guy the moment her husband goes bald or gains 20lbs.


Are you saying watching porn is the same as cheating?


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser

If she is SO hurt, and it is SUCH a deal-breaker, then why aren't these women LEAVING these unhappy, unfulfilling marriages in droves. 

OP indicates "all these women on TAM" with this problem.

Frankly, I would suspect that if these women came home and found their husbands banging the wives' sisters, every one of those wives would file for divorce. End of story. Deal breaker. No "Oh, but I love him." "Oh, he's a good man otherwise." "Oh, I don't know how I'll make it financially without him." They would JUST LEAVE or kick him out plain and simple.

So if they're willing to leave over 'Deal Breakers', then why aren't they willing to leave over PORN? If it's THAT BIG of a deal. If they're SO hurt, or disgusted, or offended by it...why not just leave or kick him out. It's either a DEAL BREAKER or it's not. If it's not, then what is the point of this thread.

Nobody is FORCING anybody to stay in a marriage with porn if you don't want to be in it. This is not a draconian state...everybody has free choice and free movement. Stop labelling the women who are STAYING of their own volition as VICTIMS. They're not! They are free-thinking adults who CHOOSE to stay in a marriage with behavior they find abhorrent. They just find divorce MORE abhorrent than porn. That is their choice. But, again, it doesn't make them a VICTIM of porn.


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## Tigger

I didn't want to get into a heated argument. I was just stating my story. It is hurtful to some people. Some people are addicted to it. Some people enjoy it. Some don't.

As for my situation, I'm going through the change and my drive is zero now so that is good for both of us. He can spank as much as he wants and I don't give a squat.

It is the lying and betrayal. 

I did take some sexy photos with nothing identifiable and put them up on a private forum. I get tons of nice compliments from men. 

Suits me just fine.


----------



## Tigger

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> If she is SO hurt, and it is SUCH a deal-breaker, then why aren't these women LEAVING these unhappy, unfulfilling marriages in droves.
> 
> OP indicates "all these women on TAM" with this problem.
> 
> Frankly, I would suspect that if these women came home and found their husbands banging the wives' sisters, every one of those wives would file for divorce. End of story. Deal breaker. No "Oh, but I love him." "Oh, he's a good man otherwise." "Oh, I don't know how I'll make it financially without him." They would JUST LEAVE or kick him out plain and simple.
> 
> So if they're willing to leave over 'Deal Breakers', then why aren't they willing to leave over PORN? If it's THAT BIG of a deal. If they're SO hurt, or disgusted, or offended by it...why not just leave or kick him out. It's either a DEAL BREAKER or it's not. If it's not, then what is the point of this thread.
> 
> Nobody is FORCING anybody to stay in a marriage with porn if you don't want to be in it. This is not a draconian state...everybody has free choice and free movement. Stop labelling the women who are STAYING of their own volition as VICTIMS. They're not! They are free-thinking adults who CHOOSE to stay in a marriage with behavior they find abhorrent. They just find divorce MORE abhorrent than porn. That is their choice. But, again, it doesn't make them a VICTIM of porn.


Probably the same reason the guys in the sexless marriages stay.

People stay for lots of reasons.

If it were so simple to just open the door and walk out.


----------



## Lyris

Tigger said:


> I didn't want to get into a heated argument. I was just stating my story. It is hurtful to some people. Some people are addicted to it. Some people enjoy it. Some don't.
> 
> As for my situation, I'm going through the change and my drive is zero now so that is good for both of us. He can spank as much as he wants and I don't give a squat.
> 
> It is the lying and betrayal.
> 
> I did take some sexy photos with nothing identifiable and put them up on a private forum. I get tons of nice compliments from men.
> 
> Suits me just fine.


Right. So you don't like porn, but you don't mind being porn? Does your husband know you do this?


----------



## Maricha75

Hortensia said:


> Lisa, all men fantasize about other women who are not their significant others from time to time. An attractive woman may pass on the street or may show up at his workplace. The guy may reach to the closest bathroom and release hinmself with that woman's image in his mind. The difference is, you would never know about it. But it doesn't mean that it can't happen.


Well, see then the man would have to actually be so inclined as to masturbate at all...which not ALL men do. You say that all men fantasize about other women. You can't say that definitively because there are a minority number who do NOT fantasize about other women. Without getting into a religious debate, because that is not what this thread is about, GENERALLY speaking, the most conservative religious men (Christians are who I am mostly familiar with) who LIVE as they profess to believe, do NOT engage in such things, nor do they allow their own minds to go down that path. THEY make that choice themselves, not their wives. So, not ALL fantasize about other women, just as not all masturbate. 



Hortensia said:


> Do you feel threaten by the women in the porn ? Why ? They can't jump out from the screen and steal your man. There's a higher chance with any woman passing him by on the street...what we gonna do next, keep them locked in the house?


I think you need to click on Lisa's name and read some of her back story before you start spouting off. She has a legitimate disdain for porn.



Hortensia said:


> *From my point of view, it IS kind of the same as watching any movie where the actor is hot.* Don't you watch Brad Pitt, Leonardo Di Caprio, etc, in movies, and don't you, at least ONCE, think : "omg, he's so hot !" Does that make you a cheater? Should your H be threatened? I'm just saying we should just be realist about it...it is human to fantasize sometimes. As long as you don't act on it.


Well, see, that the point. That is YOUR opinion. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but why would one who does NOT like/approve of porn NOT be entitled to his or her opinion? 

To say "it is human to fantasize sometimes"... tell me, what is wrong with spouses fantasizing about their spouses only, and the different things they would like to do with them? I think it is just as human to fantasize only of your spouse.



Hortensia said:


> My isn't a sucker for porn. He says he is happy with our sex life. But sometimes, we would watch something together. Nothing wrong with it. I think forbidding them from watching would only make them want it more.


See, that's the thing. It works FOR YOU. It works in YOUR relationship. It doesn't make them wrong, any more than it make you wrong..for YOUR relationship. But what is WRONG is pretending you feel one way about it, just to get what you want... and expecting your spouse to just be ok with it later on.



Hortensia said:


> I'm just surprised to see so many preconceptions on here.I just wish people were more open minded.


Well, I don't think everyone should have the same view on it. I have seen porn in the past. Personally, I find it disgusting, as does my husband. If it works in someone else's marriage, so be it. It doesn't affect me. But why should I have an open mind about it in my own marriage? I don't think so, that doesn't work for me.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

> Probably the same reason the guys in the sexless marriages stay.


EXACTLY, but they're not a "victim" of their wives or their sexless marriages.



> People stay for lots of reasons.


Yes, and that does NOT make them a "victim" of whatever it is they dislike about their marriage.


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## Tigger

Of course not. It is private. All's fair isn't it.


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## donny64

Not worried about hurting my W's feelings, because this is something we discussed and agreed upon virtually from day one (okay, maybe day 20 or so). 

The problem lies where EITHER party lies about something like this. The women say they're okay with it, when they're not. The guys say they don't view it, when they do. Right off the bat, you're starting out with a significant lie that can hurt feelings and create distrust and strife.

It's easy for me. I'm a male. I sometimes view porn. I sometimes "rub one out" to it. Assuming I've some kind of rapport with someone, that's never been some "dirty secret" I've kept. They're either okay with it, or they can hit the bricks. I KNOW, that within me, it would be foolish (and outright deceitful) to claim I'd never look at it, view it, or "use" it. Not addicted to it by any means, viewing or "using" it possibly once a week. Does my W feel like that "time" is being taken away from her? I'd hope not since we're going at it like bunnies two to four times a week.

Women that initially purport to be "okay" with their guy viewing porn when they actually are not is a huge part of the problem. Just as is the guy with no balls and no integrity who says he doesn't view it when he does. People like this will have far more problems in marriage than just porn.

I view it (in moderation). If the W doesn't like it, she shouldn't have hooked up with me, because she said she had no problem with it. Were she to admit to having a problem with it now, that makes her deceitful...and that I won't have in what is supposed to be an open and honest relationship. As it turns out, she was not deceitful, she is secure in herself, a confident woman who loves sex, and seems to appreciate viewing it nearly as much as I do. I suppose that's only a problem for her if she is confronted by some porn Nazi who wants to question her womanhood because she "allows" her man to view it....


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## Anon Pink

Tigger, it doesn't matter what you look like. Nor does it matter your level of adventurousness in the bedroom. I find there are more men with blocks and issues than there are women. (but that has more to do with the support women get from one another in order to deal with issues while men typically ignore the issue) There is no normal male who would prefer to wank when the woman he loves is willing. I could MAYBE see it as a slight issue if Mrs. Spank Boy gained 200 pounds and is now tipping the scales at 360, cause yeah, that's a buzz kill. Love the term spank boy and think it fits perfectly. He is kind of acting like a little boy by hiding his dirty little secret.

What conversations have you had with him and how did they go? Have you informed him how rejected you feel? Does he understand how hurt you are? I should think if he is aware of these things and still doesn't respond to you, this guy is going to give you a long life time of unhappiness and he isn't worth it.


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## Hortensia

I was responding to Lisa but addressing in fact all the others who are offended by porn. No need to make it so personal and get so defensive about it.
Yes, like you said I was just expressing my opinion. I thought this is the purpose of the forum? 
If you hate porn, I'm not gonna change the way you feel about it. You will remain with your opinion and I will remain to mine.
But to say it's not human to fantasize about anybody else but your spouses, EVER, well, you're hiding your head in the sand if you truly believe that. But I'm not gonna debate it any further.
Most men have fantasies that sometimes we wives are not willing to fulfil. For example, I;m not into threesomes. If my husband would watch a movie involving this fantasy, is he wronging me in any way? I'm happy he watched it, instead of going behind me and living it on real life. Example. 
There are many other cases where the guy resorts to porn because the wife cuts off on sex, gives no or lousy BJs, has little time for forplay, etc. I strongly believe that if we wives would loosen up a little bit,and try to fulfil our men's fantasies, the amount of time he spent on porn would be drastically reduced. Even eliminated. But no, it is easier to be prudes, and to look at things only from our side. 
As I said, no need to jump back in dfensive. I'm not attacking nobody. It's just my view of the matter .


----------



## donny64

> I did take some sexy photos with nothing identifiable and put them up on a private forum. I get tons of nice compliments from men.


I missed this earlier, but it is telling. 

So...I see. It is okay for some other woman's husband to rub one out to the visual of your naked form (because when you post nude pictures of yourself on a forum THAT is exactly what's happening), but not for your husband to do the same to the visual of another naked woman. This is about YOU, your self esteem, your body image, AND /OR how your husband makes YOU feel about that. Well then, I'd say this... you clearly (as you post porn of yourself) do not have a problem with porn in and of itself, you have a problem with a man who is not appreciative of you or who does not desire you. Simple solution (though not an easy one)...find someone who DOES.


----------



## Lyris

Tigger said:


> Of course not. It is private. All's fair isn't it.


Just in case you're genuinely misunderstanding my use of the word 'private' and not just being a d*ck to make a point, I reiterate that private doesn't mean secret. It means personal. 

I don't believe spouses have the right to dictate what each other does by themselves with their own body. I do believe that they need to be open about what they do so that their spouse can make an informed decision about the relationship.

And I don't believe that because your husband lied to you that you are justified in lying to him.


----------



## Anon Pink

Maricha75 said:


> Well, see then the man would have to actually be so inclined as to masturbate at all...which not ALL men do. You say that all men fantasize about other women. You can't say that definitively because there are a minority number who do NOT fantasize about other women. Without getting into a religious debate, because that is not what this thread is about, GENERALLY speaking, the most conservative religious men (Christians are who I am mostly familiar with) who LIVE as they profess to believe, do NOT engage in such things, nor do they allow their own minds to go down that path. THEY make that choice themselves, not their wives. So, not ALL fantasize about other women, just as not all masturbate.
> 
> To say "it is human to fantasize sometimes"... tell me, what is wrong with spouses fantasizing about their spouses only, and the different things they would like to do with them? I think it is just as human to fantasize only of your spouse.
> 
> 
> .


Wow!:scratchhead:

Not sure what led you to believe that about spouses fantasizing only about their spouse. Guess you've never seen a George Clooney movie.


----------



## Tigger

donny64 said:


> I missed this earlier, but it is telling.
> 
> So...I see. It is okay for some other woman's husband to rub one out to the visual of your naked form (because when you post nude pictures of yourself on a forum THAT is exactly what's happening), but not for your husband to do the same to the visual of another naked woman. This is about YOU, your self esteem, your body image, AND /OR how your husband makes YOU feel about that. Well then, I'd say this... you clearly (as you post porn of yourself) do not have a problem with porn in and of itself, you have a problem with a man who is not appreciative of you or who does not desire you. Simple solution (though not an easy one)...find someone who DOES.


I believe you got my point!

People seemed to miss when I said I had no thoughts on porn at all. It just seemed like a non issue. If people want to look at it fine, if they don't fine.

I am certainly no prude. I was a model. I posed for a few men's magazines some years ago. He knew all this. He knew I have a bit of an exhibitionist tendencies.

Out of respect for him, I didn't act on those tendencies. I didn't replace our sex life to act on that and exclude him.

He did. He made a unilateral decision to prefer porn over relations with me. He lied about it.


That is the point. When decide to lie and do something hurtful to your partner that crosses the line and nobody should have to put up with that.

Oh and surely you wouldn't have an issue with your wife or gf putting up nude photos for others to "admire" would you?


----------



## Tigger

Lyris said:


> Just in case you're genuinely misunderstanding my use of the word 'private' and not just being a d*ck to make a point, I reiterate that private doesn't mean secret. It means personal.
> 
> I don't believe spouses have the right to dictate what each other does by themselves with their own body. I do believe that they need to be open about what they do so that their spouse can make an informed decision about the relationship.
> 
> And I don't believe that because your husband lied to you that you are justified in lying to him.


What am I lying about?

If I want to put up sexy pictures in lingerie on a private forum for admiration, that is my business. It is just photos and words on a screen. It is not hurting anyone.


----------



## Gaia

Anon Pink said:


> Wow!:scratchhead:
> 
> Not sure what led you to believe that about spouses fantasizing only about their spouse. Guess you've never seen a George Clooney movie.


A movie isnt factual when it comes to relationships. There are individuals that do only fantasize about thier spouse just as there are those who fantasize about others aside from thier spouse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## donny64

Tigger said:


> I believe you got my point!
> 
> People seemed to miss when I said I had no thoughts on porn at all. It just seemed like a non issue. If people want to look at it fine, if they don't fine.
> 
> I am certainly no prude. I was a model. I posed for a few men's magazines some years ago. He knew all this. He knew I have a bit of an exhibitionist tendencies.
> 
> Out of respect for him, I didn't act on those tendencies. I didn't replace our sex life to act on that and exclude him.
> 
> He did. He made a unilateral decision to prefer porn over relations with me. He lied about it.
> 
> 
> That is the point. When decide to lie and do something hurtful to your partner that crosses the line and nobody should have to put up with that.


I get your point exactly. It is the lies and deceit, as I stated in my earlier post. I think it is a pretty darned strong indication of a guys (or woman's) charachter when they will so easily lie about something like this just to try and "hook" someone by making that other person believe they are something they are not. Put the big boy or big girl pants on, and be honest. So, maybe this honesty will "lose you" a few potential mates. Big deal. When you can be honest, and someone is perfectly okay with who you are and what you do, well then you're on your way to finding a true mate...and not just a mate because you duped her or him. When you do so (dupe someone) you WILL, more than likely, be discovered as the fraud you were, and will be left standing there watching your "mate" walk away. And you will have hurt someone who did not deserve it. Real men and women do not do that.

I just can't take a man (or woman) who will not stand up for themselves right from the start, and deceive and lie because they're afraid some potential partner will find them "not good enough" or too judgemental. 

You obviously feel and know you are attractive. Don't lose sight of that because some guy gets bored easily. We all aren't like that.

Yes, I view porn depicting women other than my wife. What I view more than those other women is "porn" the W and I made together. Some women may look different, and yes, that's a turn on seeing something "different", but SHE is hot as hell, and has chosen me. And she turns me the hell on! Were I not turned on by her, or preferred porn over her, I can say that would not be a shortcoming of hers, but rather of my own. And in that case, she'd be wise to run because that speaks (in my mind) to a serious deficiency in a male. Because she's worthy of my attention, and I'm smart enough to know that if I don't give it to her, there is a line of guys who would be more than happy to do so.

Most guys enjoy looking at a variety of women. The smart ones know when they've got it good, and do not grow bored with the "steak at home" just because they have a taste for a cheeseburger every now and then. (Appologies for the "piece of meat" analogy here, but that's what popped in my head).


----------



## john_lord_b3

Lyris said:


> Right. So you don't like porn, but you don't mind being porn? Does your husband know you do this?





> Just in case you're genuinely misunderstanding my use of the word 'private' and not just being a d*ck to make a point, I reiterate that private doesn't mean secret. It means personal.
> 
> I don't believe spouses have the right to dictate what each other does by themselves with their own body. I do believe that they need to be open about what they do so that their spouse can make an informed decision about the relationship.
> 
> And I don't believe that because your husband lied to you that you are justified in lying to him.


(OT mode on)

Mrs. Lyris, you remind me of a girl I knew, back then in my University days. Let us call her Bilqis for protecting the innocent 

Bilqis is the more mature girl on her "gang". When girls got together and starts gossipping, every now and then, some of them are more prone to be telling stories replete with exagerration and generalization, for the purposes of drawing sympathy and admiration from other girls. However Bilqis won't have none of these, she would be the first to bring down the exaggerator "back to earth"... "Aishah, I think you're lying, because your story does not make any sense..Wardhah, your generalization are incorrect, because not all Alawiyin are rich.."... stuff like that.

And anytime a boy is approaching a girl from her gang, Bilqis were always able to judge correctly whether their relationship will be successful or not.

Whenever she said "Don't you date that guy, he is a liar!", girls listens, because most of the time her observation are spot on.

She has the powers of observation one usually associates with police investigators, judges and psychologists, _before_ she even graduated with her bachelor degree.

She has this uncanny ability to look beyond what is being said and deduce the truth behind what is being said, then expose the truth for what it is. Minus the generalization and exagerration.

Other girls are kind of angry when she pulled a "police investigator" act on them every now and then. 

But when they, the girls, got into serious trouble, it was Bilqis to whom they turned into, for advice and recommendations.

Yea, Mrs. Lyris, you surely remind me of Bilqis.

(OT mode off)

Now let us go back to our regularly scheduled discussions


----------



## john_lord_b3

Thundarr said:


> Hey.... are you Ookla the Mok? Is that you?


:rofl: No, but i am sure he is related to Chewbacca the Wookie


----------



## john_lord_b3

donny64 said:


> Most guys enjoy looking at a variety of women. The smart ones know when they've got it good, and do not grow bored with the "steak at home" just because they have a taste for a cheeseburger every now and then. (Appologies for the "piece of meat" analogy here, but that's what popped in my head).


What about this analogy (I forgot to whom this quote is attributed to):

"Playboy girls pumped the tyres, but only my woman gets to ride my motorbike!"


----------



## jaquen

triggerhappy said:


> but why should someone LEARN to accept something that is hurtful and unnecessary, in the grand scheme of things?
> 
> What I'm saying is that if from the start a woman has problems with porn and has made it clear, WHY should she LEARN to accept it later in the marriage after she has invested her time and trust? the woman's feelings are being totally dismissed just because he feels it totally necessary to watch porn.
> 
> And just because you would be upset if your husband didn't like a little porn doesn't mean that that's law.


If a man agreed to never watch porn, and a woman was naive enough to believe that was probable, and she discovers that he indeed has been, like most men, watching porn, than yes she should leave. Absolutely. She made her feelings known.

But the trouble here is that, well, most men watch porn to some degree; some barely, some frequently. Are there men who do not consume ANY pornographic material? Yes, there actually are. But every shred of information available tells us that one of these men are a rare find.

So when she takes her big stance, and leaves her marriage because she discovers he enjoys porn, what's next? The chances of him finding a woman who is fine with it, or enjoys it herself, are far, far greater than her finding one of the rare needles in the haystack who never watch porn.

So yes, of course, she's free to stand by her principles. Because she can not control any human being, which means the only actions she can take are the ones involving herself, she she should do what makes her feel better. But realistically speaking, she should be aware that if she's willing to toss every man who looks at porn, she's willing to narrow down her selection severely.

If she is fine with that, I applaud her for her principles, and say good for her.


----------



## jaquen

Tigger said:


> I didn't want to get into a heated argument. I was just stating my story. It is hurtful to some people. Some people are addicted to it. Some people enjoy it. Some don't.
> 
> As for my situation, I'm going through the change and my drive is zero now so that is good for both of us. He can spank as much as he wants and I don't give a squat.
> 
> It is the lying and betrayal.
> 
> *I did take some sexy photos with nothing identifiable and put them up on a private forum. I get tons of nice compliments from men. *
> 
> Suits me just fine.


Well this is a first for TAM, as far as I'm aware.

A victimized, porn hating, zero drive wife...who makes porn herself.

I've officially heard it all.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *Tigger said*: My husband and I casually discussed porn before we got married and he said he didn't really care for it and just watched it once in awhile. I said the same. It never was even an issue.
> 
> It wasn't until we married and moved in together, I found out what a lie that was. I found it odd he kept turning me down for sex.
> 
> He kept saying he was tired or not in the mood and finally I looked at his history and although he was too tired or not in the mood, he was using porn every day, sometimes a few times a day. No wonder he wasn't in the mood.
> 
> The most hurtful part was realizing that on days that he turned me down, he waited until I left to go to the store or went to bed and self serviced himself.
> 
> He started deleting his history and I put a key logger on his machine and monitored it for a few months. He said he was going to stop and he didn't.
> 
> It got to where he was setting up virtual machines to store his wank materials. He went to pretty great lengths to hide it which he had to because I'm in IT and can find anything.
> 
> Eventually, my attitude changed. I uninstalled the key logger and decided to let it go. I was so hurt and turned off that it really didn't matter to me if we had relations anymore. I still don't care. I know he is still doing it. I do turn him down sometimes. I figure it is ok as he has his porn and doesn't really need me.


I didn't read the last 3 pages, might have missed something....

Just want to say, had THIS been your opening post, I would never have responded like I did.. Your husband has a stubborn secret addiction that he willingly hid & lied to you about -before you married ....this is out & out WRONG, hurtful, vile, and will destroy anything that was once beautiful between 2 people, when a man chooses a computer screen over his wife....while he has a willing, wanting, desirous wife craving his touch, time & connection in intimacy.... If he doesn't agree to get help....this is a pure deal breaker, and should be for every woman in your shoes. 

*Some Resources:* 

ASSESSING PORNOGRAPHY ADDICTION ......Self Test for Internet Pornography addiction  ..... 

 No Porn.com -Keys to Recovery

Out of the Shadows: Understanding Sexual Addiction: Patrick J. Carnes Ph.D.: Books

*Forums*:

Porn Addiction Message Board ..... Through The Flame forums

Sexual Addiction Forum - Psych forums ........ Sex Addiction Forums.... Sex Addiction & Recovery -HealthBoards

Sex / Pornography Addiction Forum 




Thundarr said:


> If you discussed it before marriage (which you did) and he said he wasn't into it (yet he was) then it's betrayal. Plain and simple. It was a flat out lie. Other misrepresentations and bait and switch issues get blasted here. This one should too.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with pornography under other circumstances. There's always something wrong with one spouse deceiving the other. Add to that, his porn masterbating is preferred to him over his wife. That's seems wrong.


----------



## richie33

I hate my husband to look at porn but I take sexy pictures of myself to share with other men on the internet?????
Sorry I don't get it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## aribabe

I don't believe she has "no drive"
She was attempting to "get sex" from her own husband and was continuonsly turned down in favor of a computer screen.
Women with no drive certainly don't go out of their way to sleep with their husbands, nor do they attempt to acknowledge that they are sexy, sensual women by "making porn".
Any woman that's being turned down by her husband so he can jack off to a virtual woman, is most certainly a victim.
She was lied to, betrayed, and apparently she can't even get good sex.
It looks like she can barey get any.



jaquen said:


> Well this is a first for TAM, as far as I'm aware.
> 
> A victimized, porn hating, zero drive wife...who makes porn herself.
> 
> I've officially heard it all.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tigger

aribabe said:


> I don't believe she has "no drive"
> She was attempting to "get sex" from her own husband and was continuonsly turned down in favor of a computer screen.
> Women with no drive certainly don't go out of their way to sleep with their husbands, nor do they attempt to acknowledge that they are sexy, sensual women by "making porn".
> Any woman that's being turned down by her husband so he can jack off to a virtual woman, is most certainly a victim.
> She was lied to, betrayed, and apparently she can't even get good sex.
> It looks like she can barey get any.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


yeah these people are just putting words into my mouth and twisting what I said.

I never said I hated porn. It was just a non issue. Something that wasn't a big deal. Like I said it never occurred to me people would actually look at it and spank several times a day every day and reject their partner in favor of porn.

I thought it was just something that is done occasionally when they didn't have a sex partner.

I had a very high drive. Being rejected over and over makes you lose that along with menopause.

It has been a couple years since I put photos up.


----------



## Maricha75

Anon Pink said:


> Wow!:scratchhead:
> 
> *Not sure what led you to believe that about spouses fantasizing only about their spouse.* Guess you've never seen a George Clooney movie.


I have seen George Clooney movies. I have seen Brad Pitt, Johnny Depp, Channing Tatum, etc. 

I do not fantasize about anyone other than my spouse. Do I think they are attractive? Of course. Do I wonder what it would be like with any of them? No. Why? Because I have zero desire to think of any man in that capacity, except my husband. And my comment was that it is JUST AS human nature to fantasize about one's own spouse. Meaning there are SOME, albeit a rare number, who DO only fantasize about their spouses, only. So why would THAT not be human nature as well? As odd as it may seem to many others, there are some of us out there... but we get left behind because the majority follow a different path. I assure you, though...we do exist lol.


----------



## Tigger

Loyal Lover said:


> Trigger... I'm sorry to hear about your situation, I really am.  But I a confused about WHY you are posting. (Especially since you directed it to women more than men...) It seems to me you are just venting (sorry if I missed anything, I read most posts but did miss a few). Which is fine but you come across like you're looking for answers.
> .


Why does anyone post here? Why do you post here?

I have already found the answer to the porn issue. I am sharing my story with others on here. Maybe it will be helpful in some way.


----------



## Drover

*Re: Re: Why are women afraid to stand up against porn?*



Tigger said:


> Why does anyone post here? Why do you post here?
> 
> I have already found the answer to the porn issue. I am sharing my story with others on here. Maybe it will be helpful in some way.


I must have missed that...what was your "answer"?


----------



## Maricha75

Hortensia said:


> I was responding to Lisa but addressing in fact all the others who are offended by porn. No need to make it so personal and get so defensive about it.
> Yes, like you said I was just expressing my opinion. I thought this is the purpose of the forum?
> If you hate porn, I'm not gonna change the way you feel about it. You will remain with your opinion and I will remain to mine.


My response to you was mainly regarding this part of your previous post: 



Hortensia said:


> Do you feel threaten by the women in the porn ? Why ? They can't jump out from the screen and steal your man. There's a higher chance with any woman passing him by on the street...what we gonna do next, keep them locked in the house?


Lisa's SO has a big problem with porn, and it has invaded their sex life. She has posted about it in at least one of her own threads. That is why I suggested you read her back story before asking/saying things like the above. It isn't about whether she feels threatened by the women in the porn. It is the fact that, like Tigger's husband, he prefers to masturbate rather than have sex with her. And that is NOT ok... I believe we agree on that.



Hortensia said:


> *But to say it's not human to fantasize about anybody else but your spouses, EVER, well, you're hiding your head in the sand if you truly believe that.* But I'm not gonna debate it any further.
> *Most men* have fantasies that sometimes we wives are not willing to fulfil. For example, I;m not into threesomes. If my husband would watch a movie involving this fantasy, is he wronging me in any way? I'm happy he watched it, instead of going behind me and living it on real life. Example.
> There are many other cases where the guy resorts to porn because the wife cuts off on sex, gives no or lousy BJs, has little time for forplay, etc. I strongly believe that if we wives would loosen up a little bit,and try to fulfil our men's fantasies, the amount of time he spent on porn would be drastically reduced. Even eliminated. But no, it is easier to be prudes, and to look at things only from our side.
> As I said, no need to jump back in dfensive. I'm not attacking nobody. *It's just my view of the matter* .


I don't say that it is not human nature to fantasize about other people than your spouse. You twisted my words. I said *SOME OF US* don't fantasize about others. And asked how is THAT not human nature as well. And *SOME* men do not fantasize about women other than their spouses. I don't bury my head in the sand. I know very well that the majority DO fantasize about others. 

You said, which I agree, that it is your own view on the matter. However the following comment:



Hortensia said:


> I'm just surprised to see so many preconceptions on here.I just wish people were more open minded.


to me, implies that we all should think like you. I'm sure that was not your intention, but that's how it came across to me.


----------



## Maricha75

I think some are getting *Tigger* confused with *trigger*...*trigger* is a shortened form of *triggerhappy*, who is the one who started the thread in the first place. *Tigger* did not start the thread.


----------



## Loyal Lover

Maricha75 said:


> I think some are getting *Tigger* confused with *trigger*...*trigger* is a shortened form of *triggerhappy*, who is the one who started the thread in the first place. *Tigger* did not start the thread.


/guilty as charged and embarrassed.

Thank you! 

I retracted my post, will review it later (too tiered at the moment, about to log off) to see what is and what is not relevant.

Apologies to Tigger.


----------



## Maricha75

Loyal Lover said:


> /guilty as charged and embarrassed.
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> I retracted my post, will review it later (too tiered at the moment, about to log off) to see what is and what is not relevant.
> 
> Apologies to Tigger.


Not just you. 
I have seen a few other posts, so that's why the clarification.


----------



## Anon Pink

Maricha75 said:


> I have seen George Clooney movies. I have seen Brad Pitt, Johnny Depp, Channing Tatum, etc.
> 
> I do not fantasize about anyone other than my spouse. Do I think they are attractive? Of course. Do I wonder what it would be like with any of them? No. Why? Because I have zero desire to think of any man in that capacity, except my husband. And my comment was that it is JUST AS human nature to fantasize about one's own spouse. Meaning there are SOME, albeit a rare number, who DO only fantasize about their spouses, only. So why would THAT not be human nature as well? As odd as it may seem to many others, there are some of us out there... but we get left behind because the majority follow a different path. I assure you, though...we do exist lol.


Hah, okay so when you fantasize about the boss bending you over the desk and spanking your behind before he.... Thats really your husband, or just the quintessential nameless faceless lover? Cause the second guy is not your husband.

I'm sorry Mari, there is no way you can convince me that there exists a group of healthy, well adjusted men, who have been married for more than 7-10 years, who ACTUALLY REALLY do not fantasize about anyone other than a spouse. The vast majority of men have hugely freaky, kinky, dirty fantasies that they never tell anyone.

You show me a man who ONLY fantasizes about his wife, and I'll show you a man who is lying to himself and to his wife.

Like Las Vegas, what happens in my head, stays in my head.


----------



## Loyal Lover

Triggerhappy (NOT TIGGER, NOT TIGGER *there should be a blushing face or faceplam or something*...

1 - Why are women afraid to stand up against porn?



triggerhappy said:


> Anything you cannot give up IS AN ADDICTION!


I think those women, while yes, they love their husband (just as much as the next faithful wife, not necessarily more) are addicted to their marriage (see what I did there? ) And like you said, there's lots of reasons why people don't leave... I personally don't agree and I would advise them to get out but I won't judge anyone for staying.

2 -


triggerhappy said:


> I'm just trying to understand why women who from the beginning set boundaries are made out to be the ones who have the problem.





triggerhappy said:


> This has gotten to the point of pure ridiculousness, and I can't believe women have become literally afraid to have a voice in this matter.


I don't think it's 'the women who set boundaries'. I think it's the women who are very dependent on their husbands/addicted to their marriages/possibly lost some of their 'selves'. I don't know. But it's the women who, for whatever reason, are TOO afraid of losing their husbands (we are ALL afraid of losing our SOs to some extent). But that's not just over porn, it's over drinking problems, drug addictions, verbal abuse, and lots of other things that are NOT acceptable, either because it's common sense or because one of the spouse set a boundary that was violated by the other.

The rest of us... some of us like porn. Some of us hate porn. A lot of us have now or at some point dealt with the porn issue. Personally I do NOT like porn or my SO watching porn (for lots of personal reasons but not getting into since it's not the point). He knows why I don't like it, he knows how important it is to me, and fortunately for me he understands and agrees. If he ever lets his human nature get the best of him and he was honest about it, I would not like it but I would understand and we would work on it together. (Of course, we all know the difference between an honest slip and excuses that make it a reoccurring issue.) If, however, he watches it in secret or is deceitful about it, yes, that would be a HUGE problem. If he develops a problem and isn't willing to get help and is betraying my trust, of course it's a deal breaker. I LOVE HIM but I love myself too. He wouldn't be the man I love if he hurt me like that, he would be someone else, someone not worthy of my love.

So why it may seem like ALL women (who have a problem with porn) are afraid to stand up against porn - um, lol, no, not true. I'm one of those women, nice to meet you, I will never be with someone who knowingly hurts me or disregards something that is very important to me. And I will NOT forgive someone who is not really remorseful or whom does not deserve my forgiveness. I have chosen my partner wisely (luck played a part of it too ) and he'll be "the one" for me as long as he continues to honor his promises to love and respect me. We have all/most areas of our relationship covered so things don't escalated and to avoid problems overflowing into other areas. And despite my pessimistic nature, I am happy to say that *from reading the posts from lots of other ladies here at TAM I really don't think we're a rare breed either.* You just don't hear about us because the porn thing isn't a problem in our relationships. *We ARE willing to stand up (and we do) against porn (or ANY marital problems) all on our own.* While everyone needs a little help with relationships, that is one department we DON'T need help in, which is why you won't hear about us posting about it here on TAM. 

As for the women that are afraid to speak up...I feel awful that those women find themselves in those positions. This (TAM) being a support forum, I only hope we can be of help to them to gain the courage to stand up against their marital problems or find some resolution to improve their marriage. Everyone needs a little help sometime. While it's sad that it comes to this, I don't find it ridiculous at all. Like you said, it can be anything. Love being such a strong life giving and life taking emotion, marriages have children, history, shared property, etc., of course it can be difficult to leave your spouse for ANY reason. It's a dilemma as old as time.


----------



## Maricha75

Anon Pink said:


> Hah, okay so when you fantasize about the boss bending you over the desk and spanking your behind before he.... Thats really your husband, or just the quintessential nameless faceless lover? Cause the second guy is not your husband.
> 
> I'm sorry Mari, there is no way you can convince me that there exists a group of healthy, well adjusted men, who have been married for more than 7-10 years, who ACTUALLY REALLY do not fantasize about anyone other than a spouse. The vast majority of men have hugely freaky, kinky, dirty fantasies that they never tell anyone.
> 
> You show me a man who ONLY fantasizes about his wife, and I'll show you a man who is lying to himself and to his wife.
> 
> Like Las Vegas, what happens in my head, stays in my head.


Well, considering I am a SAHM, my boss would technically be my husband, so yes, in that fantasy, IF I even had that one  , my husband WOULD be the one. *I* do not fantasize about my husband as someone else. I don't have a "faceless man" fantasy. It IS my husband in all of them. Sorry that is so hard for you to comprehend that some people actually DO reserve ALL sexual thought, all sexual energies for their spouses. But, yes, the *MAJORITY*, I do agree, fantasize about other people. If that's what they like, I really don't care. But for me? No. Sorry, but for me it really IS all about my husband. 

And really? Just because *YOU* haven't run into men who reserve everything for their wives, doesn't mean they don't exist. Like I said before, I don't want to bring religious debate to this thread. But the ones who truly *LIVE* what they believe and teach, do not. You don't have to believe it. The only ones who are important in that equation are the man, his wife, and God. What you believe about it makes no difference. But to say my husband of almost 13 years is lying to me? Or that even I am lying to him? You are wrong. There is nothing *YOU* can say that will convince me that EVERY man and woman fantasizes about someone other than his or her spouse. Because I know for a *FACT* that not everyone does... I *DO NOT* have any fantasies about anyone other than my OWN HUSBAND. You don't have to believe me. I couldn't care less. But I know what is true for me. Your *opinion* on the matter makes no difference.


----------



## chillymorn

I believe if you save all your sexual energy for your spouce only the sex will be sooooooooooo much better. but both people in the relationship have to be on the same page.

if theres a mismatch in frequency and the low drive partner dosen't make reasonable effort then this is impossible to achieve.

the balance of desire should be equal or the low drive partner is controling the couples sex life and nobody wants or can be controled by someone else for to long before resentment builds to an unhealthy level.

and then all bet are off. and the marriage most likley will fail.


----------



## that_girl

I only fantasized about my husband for 5 years. But after he dropped his bomb, I now fantasize about others


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Anon Pink said:


> I'm sorry Mari, there is no way you can convince me that there exists a group of healthy, well adjusted men, who have been married for more than 7-10 years, who ACTUALLY REALLY do not fantasize about anyone other than a spouse. The vast majority of men have hugely freaky, kinky, dirty fantasies that they never tell anyone.
> 
> You show me a man who ONLY fantasizes about his wife, and I'll show you a man who is lying to himself and to his wife.


I do tend to feel 99.9 % of ALL men do this... But here is the interesting part, I am married to one that says he doesn't, and swears by it. 

Let me explain......

I talked to my husband about this very thing the other night...because in the past ...when we blew the roof off the house talking about sexual everything under the sun .....I asked about his fantasies... who /what/ where...he told me he's never fantasied about another woman..I was like .."WHAT...come [email protected]#$%^&" .... he told me again..."No.. .never"... and I told him ... then he is better than I... cause I have jumped the fence in my head ... he wasn't hurt or anything...as he feels that's very human, not sinful, not betrayal.....so I still kept trying to dig... to get him to owe up to it...told him I'd LOVE to hear his steamy dark fantasies ....he went on to say he guesses he's boring cause he doesn't do that....adding I fulfill them all. 

And just to clarify, he isn't hurt or offended that I DO this now & then, he feels it's very human,... he knows my







more than anyone who walks this earth, feels my passion every day ...he's my soulmate, physically the only man I've been with....still wildly in love after all these yrs. 

* But anyway... he admitted he PUSHES any budding fantasy away when it has the "power" to linger.... he doesn't feel it is right (just uncomfortable with it)... so he doesn't do it... very sweet to hear. Honorable & true...* 

But again...I told him... I ain't that damn good all of the time...(I don't lie & sugarcoat).... True the vast majority of my fantasies are me & him going back in time - experiencing things we missed..wish I had a time machine... I've even entertained he was my Affair partner (hey, it was still him!)... 

I just wouldn't find it any type of betrayal on his part to DO that... so I told him .... ENJOY baby !

Seriously... to each their own.... Of course my husband notices a Beautiful curvy woman waking past & always will...and he enjoys some soft porn... It's fine. The fact he has trained himself to push the sexual thoughts of another away- in lustful fantasy...well... 

Call me crazy..but I Do BELIEVE him... simply ....because of how he treats me and he has absolutely no reason to lie to me.....heck he makes ME look bad - darn him!!!


----------



## Maricha75

that_girl said:


> I only fantasized about my husband for 5 years. But after he dropped his bomb, I now fantasize about others


TG... I can't say as I blame you there. Knowing your situation, I understand.


----------



## that_girl

Maricha75 said:


> TG... I can't say as I blame you there. Knowing your situation, I understand.


Well, yea. Plus, I stopped having sex with him.


----------



## jaquen

aribabe said:


> I don't believe she has "no drive"
> She was attempting to "get sex" from her own husband and was continuonsly turned down in favor of a computer screen.
> Women with no drive certainly don't go out of their way to sleep with their husbands, nor do they attempt to acknowledge that they are sexy, sensual women by "making porn".
> Any woman that's being turned down by her husband so he can jack off to a virtual woman, is most certainly a victim.
> She was lied to, betrayed, and apparently she can't even get good sex.
> It looks like she can barey get any.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mostly true, but that's not what I was referring to. I was referring to this:

* "I'm going through the change and my drive is zero now..."
*

The woman is attributing her "zero drive" to menopause. I can only take her at her word.

And no, she is not a "victim". She chose to stay in a marriage with a fool who is choosing a laptop over her. But she is a free woman, and as such is free to leave. She stayed. "Victimization" doesn't apply to her. She's no more victimized than the legions of foolish men who stay with refusing women, letting their lives, and their virility, pass them by.


----------



## Cletus

Lyris said:


> Frankly, I think the men who stay in these marriages are of superhuman moral fortitude (Cletus, I hope this doesn't embarrass you and let me know if it does, I'll take this out, but you are a great example of this). If they need to watch a bit of porn to get through, then too bad if their wives don't like it.


You may use my name in vain whenever you like since it's actually not possible to embarrass me, especially not with things I've said publicly.

My wife hates porn. Or at least, she thinks she does, since she has not to my knowledge ever actually viewed any. But I do remember how much trouble I was in 25 years ago when she found a Playboy in the house (Playboy was a magazine that predates the internet, you young 'uns.)

That's her problem, not mine. I've always been discreet and it has NEVER interfered with my intimate life.

I would make a deal with her:

3 blowjobs a year and I'll never look at porn again.

or

let's experiment with oral sex in the bedroom and I'll never look at porn again

or 

let me shower with you once a month and if it turns to something other than getting clean, so be it

or...

I could offer her those deals, and she would refuse every one. Guess she doesn't really dislike porn quite as much as certain aspects of real sex with her husband.

You get the picture. I have a weekly 48 hour window for sex in my marriage, from Friday to Sunday nights, as long as all of the other relationship preconditions have been met. If I get a hankerin' for a wankerin' on a Wednesday, who's to tell me I can't use a little visual stimulation on my own freaking time?

So I dare anyone to tell me that I'm being the intransigent one in the relationship. I double dog dare 'em.


----------



## Cosmos

Well said, OP. 

I'm not going to read all the responses here, or bother commenting, because it will undoubtedly be the same old same old, but I admire you for posting this.


----------



## Cletus

donny64 said:


> The problem lies where EITHER party lies about something like this. The women say they're okay with it, when they're not. The guys say they don't view it, when they do. Right off the bat, you're starting out with a significant lie that can hurt feelings and create distrust and strife.


Dan Savage is the author of the best advice about porn in a relationship with a woman who doesn't like it. To make it work, the guy pretends he doesn't use porn, and his spouse pretends to believe him.

No one really lies, but everyone winks and respects their difference of opinion.


----------



## triggerhappy

Cletus said:


> Dan Savage is the author of the best advice about porn in a relationship with a woman who doesn't like it. To make it work, the guy pretends he doesn't use porn, and his spouse pretends to believe him.
> 
> No one really lies, but everyone winks and respects their difference of opinion.



But why do you BELIEVE that EVERYONE in EVERY corner of our earth MUST be secretly watching porn? If you believe that, truly, do you think that maaayyybe, perhaps, _your_ point of view is contorted?

What goes on in your head to believe that everyone MUST be watching it secretly? what happened in your life that made you believe that to be gospel? no offense, I'm just asking a simple question that I'm very curious to get an answer to.


----------



## jaquen

It definitely is possible for a man to fantasize about only one woman. I know, I did it for years, an as a man in his 20's. I gave that up ages ago, but I do know that it absolutely is possible.

But let me say that it was largely possible because, back then, I barely watched any porn, and didn't fantasize a ton in general. Thanks to religious convictions, there were a lot of boundaries I put on myself, and I am very good at self control when I want/need to be.

So yes it's very rare, but it's possible. My wife (she wasn't my wife back then) took awhile to accept it, but she came to love it. She actually missed it when I took the boundaries down, and let the fullness of my sexuality flood in. She didn't realize truly how rare that was until it was gone.

As far as women? My wife doesn't fantasize about other men. I was surprised when she told me. I never put that expectation on her, but she says her fantasies have always gravitated toward the man she's with, if her feelings are strong. It's just the way she's built, naturally, without any effort.


----------



## jaquen

triggerhappy said:


> But why do you BELIEVE that EVERYONE in EVERY corner of our earth MUST be secretly watching porn? If you believe that, truly, do you think that maaayyybe, perhaps, _your_ point of view is contorted?
> 
> What goes on in your head to believe that everyone MUST be watching it secretly? what happened in your life that made you believe that to be gospel? no offense, I'm just asking a simple question that I'm very curious to get an answer to.


Because he's a man, and you're not. He'll forget more about being a man than you will ever know.

So while ALL men do not watch porn, you'd best believe that he, and nearly all other men, are well aware of how we are, what drives us, and what we enjoy on the whole. If most men have access to porn, they're watching. And if they're not watching, they're creating it in their head from scratch.

If you're looking for the rare needle, enjoy wallowing in the haystack. But you'd like to believe fairytales about how men work in general, keep your conversations limited to other like minded women. You'll feel better in the end.


----------



## Created2Write

I haven't read all of the replies, and many here already know that I have a fairly strict idea about pornography. Basically, I don't think it's necessary at all. If a husband and wife agree that they like it and watch it together, or separately, I have no comment to them. Their marriage is mutual and they have agreed on the porn issue. 

But even still, I find it utterly unnecessary to the health of the marriage. Sex with your spouse is a need, pornography is not. The fact that so many men are quick to defend their use of it tells me that it's more dangerous than they care to admit to themselves or anyone else. Incompatibility on this issue, as I have seen, rarely ends happily. The wife(or the husband...whichever doesn't like porn) feels hurt, betrayed and misunderstood, and the other just wants to defend their position and feels that their spouse should just accept who they are. 

Yet, when a wife or husband is a LD spouse and refuses to budge on increasing sexual frequency, where is the "just accept who they are" argument there? 

Sex IS a relational need. Porn isn't. Sure, maybe it can add some spice to a relationship, but that is the best it can do. At its worst...it kills. 

And that's all I have to say.


----------



## richie33

So if the wife/ husband hates it and the other likes it than what would be the compromise? I think there is the problem. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBird

aribabe said:


> I don't have any stands against porn.
> I watch it, probably more often than my husband does honestly, which is at least twice a week for me.
> My stand against porn is bringing pornishness into our bedroom.
> I can't deal with that
> Luckily, it hasn't been an issue
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you like your clitoris bitten?

:smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## Created2Write

Had to add one thing: I am so grateful that I married the man I did. We're spiritual people and believe that faithfulness in marriage starts in the mind. Fantasizing about other people, whether we know them personally or they're made up fictitious people or they're real but we've never met them(actors or actresses) is a dangerous line to cross. Real life can't compare to what we create in our fantasies and they can lead us to be unsatisfied with someone who is actually a great person. 

That's why my husband and I discussed before marriage our boundaries and opinions on pornography.


----------



## richie33

Agree 100% that it should be discussed before marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBird

I would not mind so much if weren't such a giant gateway. 

Have you noticed that every single porn site has ads for "hook up sites" or "live cam girls"? 

Can anyone say "Ashl*ey Madi*son?" Vomit in my mouth. Since when has society and the media been allowed to facilitate adultery? It's shameless and disgusting. 

My other issue with porn is I feel like it sets up unrealistic expectations. It is not as easy to "leave it outside the bedroom" as people like to think. All it takes is a seed to be planted. 

I'm not interested in having anal sex with two black guys, a puerto rican and my secretary. 

"Oh, I'd kinda like to try that...."

Yeah, um no. Unlike the porn bimbos, I don't get paid to pretend I'm enjoying being degraded and used as a collection of holes and I'm not going to do it. 

Porn de-sensitizes...there are literally studies on this. First it's the soft core, then that doesn't do it anymore....it's like a drug. Eventually you start needing stronger doses to get the high.

I'm not some anti-porn crusader, it's a free country. I've watched it on brief occasion to learn how to do things- God knows when I promised my SO a blow job for his 16th birthday I had not the slightest clue how to do one. 

But that **** is not allowed in my house. And I pay the rent. So if you don't like it, GTFO.


----------



## richie33

Add Facebook to your list of things not allowed in your home also. I am sure more men and woman are finding a way to cheat than those pop up ads.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBird

richie33 said:


> Add Facebook to your list of things not allowed in your home also. I am sure more men and woman are finding a way to cheat than those pop up ads.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's SPECIFICALLY targeted at the men who go on those porn sites- because they "clearly aren't getting what is owed to them, which is sex with whoever/however they want because BY GOD they have penises and what kind of crazy ***** wouldn't want to be all over their ****?" 



I'm not going to break this down. You clearly understand the difference Facebook and ****book.com


----------



## Created2Write

Facebook isn't a dangerous gateway into cheating on your spouse. Please. I guess people who are already desperate could use it for that, but it wasn't designed for that purpose. Porn was designed for no other purpose than to titillate those who watch it. 

BIG difference.


----------



## Maricha75

Created2Write said:


> *Facebook isn't a dangerous gateway into cheating on your spouse.* Please. I guess people who are already desperate could use it for that, but *it wasn't designed for that purpose*. Porn was designed for no other purpose than to titillate those who watch it.
> 
> BIG difference.


Add to that: MMORPG... hell, even forums such as this. I know people troll marriage forums in search of the weak to prey upon. My first day on here, some guy decided to contact me to do sexual things with him. It happens everywhere, but Facebook gets the brunt of it because it's mentioned most often...well, that and gaming.


----------



## triggerhappy

jaquen said:


> Because he's a man, and you're not. He'll forget more about being a man than you will ever know.
> 
> So while ALL men do not watch porn, you'd best believe that he, and nearly all other men, are well aware of how we are, what drives us, and what we enjoy on the whole. If most men have access to porn, they're watching. And if they're not watching, they're creating it in their head from scratch.
> 
> If you're looking for the rare needle, enjoy wallowing in the haystack. But you'd like to believe fairytales about how men work in general, keep your conversations limited to other like minded women. You'll feel better in the end.


There's really no need to be condescending. And I don't believe that every man HAS to have porn to feel complete in life, to feel he is not being cheated of something essential. that's the point I'm trying to make, that it's not necessary in a marriage. Some men, and even women want to make you believe it is absolutely the air you breath and it's not. It's more of a desperation than anything else.


----------



## Drover

*Re: Re: Why are women afraid to stand up against porn?*



triggerhappy said:


> There's really no need to be condescending. And I don't believe that every man HAS to have porn to feel complete in life, to feel he is not being cheated of something essential. that's the point I'm trying to make, that it's not necessary in a marriage. Some men, and even women want to make you believe it is absolutely the air you breath and it's not. It's more of a desperation than anything else.


True. but like Any addiction it's an attempt to get some need met that isn't being met. What is he desperate for whatever (and it's not necessarily just sex) it is? Because he's not getting it someplace else.


----------



## Created2Write

Drover said:


> True. but like Any addiction it's an attempt to get some need met that isn't being met. What is he desperate for whatever (and it's not necessarily just sex) it is? Because he's not getting it someplace else.


While I understand the mentality, personally I think it's a dangerous mentality. With this mentality we could justify and excuse adultery and emotional affairs.


----------



## Drover

*Re: Re: Why are women afraid to stand up against porn?*



Created2Write said:


> While I understand the mentality, personally I think it's a dangerous mentality. With this mentality we could justify and excuse adultery and emotional affairs.


You could I couldn't because I see that as morally wrong, which I don't see porn as being. Just like I don't have a moral issue with eating when I'm hungry. People have emotional needs. I think it makes sense to discuss those needs with the person you'd like to see meet them. But I also think a lot of people don't even really understand what the real need is they're not getting filled.


----------



## Tigger

Drover said:


> True. but like Any addiction it's an attempt to get some need met that isn't being met. What is he desperate for whatever (and it's not necessarily just sex) it is? Because he's not getting it someplace else.


But there are men who have very willing partners who prefer to spank. Their partner is offering to fulfill their needs.


----------



## Drover

I also see a lot of women who think all he wants is sex. They can't understand why he feels unsatisfied because "he gets it whenever he wants it". But guess what? Lying there like a dead log waiting for him to hurry up with it isn't going to satisfy anything beyond the physical need. He doesn't feel, fulfilled, wanted or loved. But he can get that in a fantasy ie. porn. trouble is, that won't hold him long and he needs another fix...


----------



## jaquen

triggerhappy said:


> There's really no need to be condescending.


That's not condescension. That's a strong reminder that if you want to know what men think, you need to be prepared for answers you do not like. We are not women, we are men. 

This applies in reverse. There is not a shortage of men who will likewise get upset when women tell their REAL feelings. Do they speak for all? Of course not, but it does seem like both sexes are prone to be extremely disturbed by the real feelings the opposite one has.



triggerhappy said:


> And I don't believe that every man HAS to have porn to feel complete in life, to feel he is not being cheated of something essential.


Never suggested otherwise.



triggerhappy said:


> that it's not necessary in a marriage.


I don't think I have ever seen a single person, regardless of sex, on TAM recommend, elude to, or suggest that porn is "necessary in a marriage". Obviously it is not.



triggerhappy said:


> Some men, and even women want to make you believe it is absolutely the air you breath and it's not.


Again, who on TAM ever suggested this? 



triggerhappy said:


> It's more of a desperation than anything else.


Unless you've discovered the ability to read minds, no you can not tell any other human being why they watch porn. If you started watching, perhaps it would be a desperate...for you. But this is where folks get in trouble; projecting their own biases on others. We are all guilty of it, but it's best to own up to it when it becomes apparent.


----------



## LittleBird

Cletus said:


> You may use my name in vain whenever you like since it's actually not possible to embarrass me, especially not with things I've said publicly.
> 
> My wife hates porn. Or at least, she thinks she does, since she has not to my knowledge ever actually viewed any. But I do remember how much trouble I was in 25 years ago when she found a Playboy in the house (Playboy was a magazine that predates the internet, you young 'uns.)
> 
> That's her problem, not mine. I've always been discreet and it has NEVER interfered with my intimate life.
> 
> I would make a deal with her:
> 
> 3 blowjobs a year and I'll never look at porn again.
> 
> or
> 
> let's experiment with oral sex in the bedroom and I'll never look at porn again
> 
> or
> 
> let me shower with you once a month and if it turns to something other than getting clean, so be it
> 
> or...
> 
> I could offer her those deals, and she would refuse every one. Guess she doesn't really dislike porn quite as much as certain aspects of real sex with her husband.
> 
> You get the picture. I have a weekly 48 hour window for sex in my marriage, from Friday to Sunday nights, as long as all of the other relationship preconditions have been met. If I get a hankerin' for a wankerin' on a Wednesday, who's to tell me I can't use a little visual stimulation on my own freaking time?
> 
> So I dare anyone to tell me that I'm being the intransigent one in the relationship. I double dog dare 'em.


I'm just wondering what ever happened to imagination.

What did men do during the several centuries predating Playboy and the Internet? 

I'm confused.

And if you're already aroused, WTF is the point of watching something designed to make you aroused?


----------



## LittleBird

Drover said:


> I also see a lot of women who think all he wants is sex. They can't understand why he feels unsatisfied because "he gets it whenever he wants it". But guess what? Lying there like a dead log waiting for him to hurry up with it isn't going to satisfy anything beyond the physical need. He doesn't feel, fulfilled, wanted or loved. But he can get that in a fantasy ie. porn. trouble is, that won't hold him long and he needs another fix...


And a bunch of 18 year old girls who would spit on him in real life fill that gaping emotional void?


----------



## triggerhappy

Drover said:


> I also see a lot of women who think all he wants is sex. They can't understand why he feels unsatisfied because "he gets it whenever he wants it". But guess what? Lying there like a dead log waiting for him to hurry up with it isn't going to satisfy anything beyond the physical need. He doesn't feel, fulfilled, wanted or loved. But he can get that in a fantasy ie. porn. trouble is, that won't hold him long and he needs another fix...


But if she's laying there like a "dead log", then HER needs aren't obviously being met. Again, it's being made out like it's all about the guy's satisfaction. She's not happy laying there like a log. Contrary to popular beliefs women want to have fulfilling sex lives too. 

Anyone who has a wife who just lays there like a dead log during sex, and doesn't stop, drop and roll to address that right away, and turns to porn...well, I really don't know what to say about that.


----------



## triggerhappy

> That's a strong reminder that if you want to know what men think, you need to be prepared for answers you do not like.


That!


Just because YOU think that way, doesn't mean ALL men think that way. You aren't the authority on all male sexual behavior, I hate to tell you. Just like I am not for women. I am simply trying to be a voice for women who are hurt about porn, regardless for whatever reason it doesn't matter, they don't have to accept it as normal male behavior, because it's not. Is it popular male behavior? sure, but not the authority of all sexual behavior. It is not a necessary aspect of life to have a successful relationship.


----------



## jaquen

LittleBird said:


> I'm just wondering what ever happened to imagination.
> 
> What did men do during the several centuries predating Playboy and the Internet?


You do realize that porn existed, and was prevalent, long before the advent of video, internet, or photography? Right??


----------



## Drover

*Re: Re: Why are women afraid to stand up against porn?*



LittleBird said:


> And a bunch of 18 year old girls who would spit on him in real life fill that gaping emotional void?


It's a fantasy! lol


----------



## Drover

*Re: Re: Why are women afraid to stand up against porn?*



triggerhappy said:


> But if she's laying there like a "dead log", then HER needs aren't obviously being met. Again, it's being made out like it's all about the guy's satisfaction. She's not happy laying there like a log. Contrary to popular beliefs women want to have fulfilling sex lives too.
> 
> Anyone who has a wife who just lays there like a dead log during sex, and doesn't stop, drop and roll to address that right away, and turns to porn...well, I really don't know what to say about that.


Yes. When you enter into a monogamous relationship you commit to try to meet EACH OTHER'S needs. Often he does say something but she doesn't understand what he needs. Or he feels guilty about bringing it up. Or he feels shame because he doesn't make her go wild for him. There are lots of reasons for this.


----------



## jaquen

triggerhappy said:


> That!
> 
> 
> Just because YOU think that way, doesn't mean ALL men think that way. You aren't the authority on all male sexual behavior, I hate to tell you.


And I suppose you convienetly glossed over the several posts where I clearly stated that not a single one of us, male or female, speak for ALL people.

But if you seriously don't believe Cletus, a man, can give you insight into _general_ male attitudes, then you're mistaken.




triggerhappy said:


> Just like I am not for women. I am simply trying to be a voice for women who are hurt about porn, regardless for whatever reason it doesn't matter, they don't have to accept it as normal male behavior, because it's not. Is it popular male behavior? sure, but not the authority of all sexual behavior. It is not a necessary aspect of life to have a successful relationship.


Preaching to the choir. You're making all kinds of insinuations, and don't have a clue how far off the mark you are with me.

In case you missed my previous post, I already agreed that porn isn't a necessary for a successful life, or marriage. In fact, *nobody* here has. You're making a classic straw man argument.



triggerhappy said:


> they don't have to accept it as normal male behavior, because it's not.


It is "normal male behavior". That's a fact, not a commentary on morality.

Just like it's "normal American behavior" for the majority of our citizens to eat processed, notoriously poor food. Not a commentary on the right, or wrong, just the fact of the matter.

And, as I have always said, what women accept is totally up to them. If you don't accept that your man enjoys porn, and he doesn't show any signs of giving it up, leave.


----------



## triggerhappy

jaquen said:


> You do realize that porn existed, and was prevalent, long before the advent of video, internet, or photography? Right??



So that makes it right. Just because it can be proven that porn existed before playboy, it's a scientific fact that it's a necessary component of a healthy sexual relationship whether it be with the self or with a partner. I don't buy that, and no one else should because that's a lie, it's manipulation, it's brainwashing. 

Yes, I sound radical, but we need to be radical to change these absurd views about porn. Again, if two consenting adults like to view porn, I think that's wonderful. This discussion is specifically about the fact that porn shouldn't be the air men breath if it hurts the other person involved. 

I just want to also mention for the record that I am not religious.


----------



## jaquen

triggerhappy said:


> So that makes it right.Just because it can be proven that porn existed before playboy, it's a scientific fact that it's a necessary component of a healthy sexual relationship whether it be with the self or with a partner. I don't buy that, and no one else should because that's a lie, it's manipulation, it's brainwashing.


It would be wonderful if you would cease shoving words into my fingertips.



triggerhappy said:


> Yes, I sound radical, but we need to be radical to change these absurd views about porn. Again, if two consenting adults like to view porn, I think that's wonderful. This discussion is specifically about the fact that porn shouldn't be the air men breath if it hurts the other person involved.


It has never changed, and it never will change. Free yourself of that crusade.

Women can't control men. You can't control what we will, or will not, watch, think, or feel. All you can control is yourself. And if the man you're with won't give up porn at your insistence, than walk away. THAT is the answer, you making decisions that are in line with your own personal morality. That is ALL you can do.


----------



## triggerhappy

> But if you seriously don't believe Cletus, a man, can give you insight into general male attitudes, then you're mistaken.



No offense to him, but he's not the perfect example of a man to gain "insight" from. Especially since there seems to be a conflict of interest and he obviously feels entitled to view porn if his wife doesn't put out...or else.


----------



## Tigger

triggerhappy said:


> But if she's laying there like a "dead log", then HER needs aren't obviously being met. Again, it's being made out like it's all about the guy's satisfaction. She's not happy laying there like a log. Contrary to popular beliefs women want to have fulfilling sex lives too.
> 
> Anyone who has a wife who just lays there like a dead log during sex, and doesn't stop, drop and roll to address that right away, and turns to porn...well, I really don't know what to say about that.


Anyone who has a wife who lays there like a log and wants to hurry up and get it over with quick, do you know why she is doing that? Have you asked her? Do you even care?

The men seem to insinuate they are using porn because their needs are being met at home.

What about the guys who get it as much as they want? Why are they using porn?


----------



## triggerhappy

jaquen said:


> It would be wonderful if you would cease shoving words into my fingertips.


Your comment was an implication. If not please correct me, and tell me what was the point you were trying to make by pointing out that porn existed long before playboy.


----------



## jaquen

triggerhappy said:


> No offense to him, but he's not the perfect example of a man to gain "insight" from. Especially since there seems to be a conflict of interest and he obviously feels entitled to view porn if his wife doesn't put out...or else.


So basically your answer is to keep rejecting what men say, until you find the few men who will agree with you?

OK.


----------



## jaquen

triggerhappy said:


> Your comment was an implication. If not please correct me, and tell me what was the point you were trying to make by pointing out that porn existed long before playboy.


My point was merely to correct a poster who inferred that porn started with the internet and glossy, photography based magazines.

The only "implications" were the ones you projected. Which you have shown a knack for doing throughout this entire conversation.

If you're interested in just giving a diatribe, then be honest about that, and don't feign an attempt at real discourse. It'll save everyone a lot of time, and effort.


----------



## triggerhappy

jaquen said:


> It would be wonderful if you would cease shoving words into my fingertips.
> 
> 
> 
> It has never changed, and it never will change. Free yourself of that crusade.
> 
> Women can't control men. You can't control what we will, or will not, watch, think, or feel. All you can control is yourself. And if the man you're with won't give up porn at your insistence, than walk away. THAT is the answer, you making decisions that are in line with your own personal morality. That is ALL you can do.


You continue to contradict yourself. 


I agree porn is normal male behavior. That I am not denying, what I am saying is that it is not necessary, and you will not make me, or other women believe that, no matter how much it pisses you off.


----------



## triggerhappy

jaquen said:


> So basically your answer is to keep rejecting what men say, until you find the few men who will agree with you?
> 
> OK.


What men say? what men? where? do you really believe that I will seek insight from the very men who are defending porn like they're vikings? 
:scratchhead:


----------



## jaquen

Tigger said:


> What about the guys who get it as much as they want? Why are they using porn?


Because they want to. Because some of us indeed are sexual beings, who see no conflict between enjoying sexual relations with one woman, and simultaneously enjoying a rich fantasy life, or the site of other human beings in various sexual situations.

Some men need a "reason" to watch porn; they're ashamed of their desire for sexual stimulation, and suggest that if their wives would fulfill them sexually, they'd give up porn.

But all of us aren't watching porn out of desperation, or shame. Some of us simply enjoy having it as another facet to our sexual lives. No more, no less.


----------



## jaquen

triggerhappy said:


> You continue to contradict yourself.
> 
> 
> I agree porn is normal male behavior. That I am not denying, what I am saying is that it is not necessary, and you will not make me, or other women believe that, no matter how much it pisses you off.


For the one thousandth time, I have never, in the history of my entire existence, on TAM or otherwise, said that pornography was "necessary".

Are you comprehending what I am actually writing at all? Because if you think I'm just going to roll over and allow you to stick words into my fingertips, you are sadly mistaken lady.


----------



## triggerhappy

jaquen said:


> Because they want to. Because some of us indeed are sexual beings, who see no conflict between enjoying sexual relations with one woman, and simultaneously enjoying a rich fantasy life, or the site of other human beings in various sexual situations.
> 
> Some men need a "reason" to watch porn; they're ashamed of their desire for sexual stimulation, and suggest that if their wives would fulfill them sexually, they'd give up porn.
> 
> But all of us aren't watching porn out of desperation, or shame. Some of us simply enjoy having it as another facet to our sexual lives. No more, no less.


 but if your SO asked you not to watch it anymore, to remove it completely out of your life, would you? could you?


----------



## jaquen

triggerhappy said:


> I agree porn is normal male behavior. That I am not denying,


Really? You didn't write this on the previous page?

"they don't have to accept it as normal male behavior, *because it's not.*"


----------



## jaquen

triggerhappy said:


> but if your SO asked you not to watch it anymore, to remove it completely out of your life, would you? could you?


My SO wouldn't ask me to remove it completely out of my life, because my SO knew my attitude on the subject long before we wed. I wouldn't have married a woman who was uncomfortable with my sexuality, and sexual beliefs, anymore than I would expect her to do the same. 

It's called compatibility, and honesty.


----------



## triggerhappy

jaquen said:


> For the one thousandth time, I have never, in the history of my entire existence, on TAM or otherwise, said that pornography was "necessary".
> 
> Are you comprehending what I am actually writing at all? Because if you think I'm just going to roll over and allow you to stick words into my fingertips, you are sadly mistaken lady.



Why the defensive tone? we're just having a discussion. I think you believe I'm just going to roll over and accept what you tell me as gospel. I won't. I'm sorry if that pisses you off. I really am.


----------



## Created2Write

Drover said:


> I also see a lot of women who think all he wants is sex. They can't understand why he feels unsatisfied because "he gets it whenever he wants it". But guess what? Lying there like a dead log waiting for him to hurry up with it isn't going to satisfy anything beyond the physical need. He doesn't feel, fulfilled, wanted or loved. But he can get that in a fantasy ie. porn. trouble is, that won't hold him long and he needs another fix...


Hey, I'm with ya on this, except for the porn part. I absolutely agree that women should do more than just lay there and think of England. I absolutely 100$ agree and understand why that wouldn't remotely be fulfilling for a man. 

But that, imo, doesn't excuse turning to other things to get that need fulfilled, whatever it may be. Another person, porn, food, etc. The solution is to see if the sex issue can be solved between the husband and wife, _not_ finding other things to temporarily satisfy that need. That could lead to even more resentment, imo. 

And whether you think porn is immoral or not wasn't the point. The point was that the line of thinking you presented can be used to justify adultery and emotional affairs. It's a dangerous thing to allow oneself to fantasize about others because, eventually, real life(even a great one where the wife loves sex and actively participates on a consistent basis) won't live up to the fantasies we create.


----------



## triggerhappy

jaquen said:


> My SO wouldn't ask me to remove it completely out of my life, because my SO knew my attitude on the subject long before we wed. I wouldn't have married a woman who was uncomfortable with my sexuality, and sexual beliefs, anymore than I would expect her to do the same.
> 
> It's called compatibility, and honesty.


But let's just suppose she did, even if you discussed it prior, could you and would you? It's a simple question. Just out of curiosity.

never mind. I just realized i'm asking the wrong person.


----------



## jaquen

triggerhappy said:


> Why the defensive tone? we're just having a discussion. I think you believe I'm just going to roll over and accept what you tell me as gospel. I won't. I'm sorry if that pisses you off. I really am.


Lady, you are not "pissing me off". Please don't flatter yourself too highly.

What you are doing is baffling me with your inability to comprehend. You continue to tell me what I believe, and then respond to me accordingly.

If you would like to know what I actually believe, then ask. It's that simple. And if you're not interested, move along.


----------



## T&T

LittleBird said:


> What did men do during the several centuries predating Playboy and the Internet?


Hmmm, let me think. :scratchhead: Probably watching that horny dog running around humping every female dog he could find. :rofl:

The wifey out of town tonight. As good a time as any to watch a bit of porn.


----------



## jaquen

triggerhappy said:


> But let's just suppose she did, even if you discussed it prior, could you and would you? It's a simple question. Just out of curiosity.



No. If I was to give up porn, I would give it up for myself, because I no longer believed in watching/using it.

If my woman came to me and suddenly said that she didn't want me to watch it, I would remind her that we married under the pretense that she was comfortable with who I was, who I honestly stated up front to be, and that she should find a way to remedy her change in attitude.

In this example, she changed, not me. And she should find a way to reconcile that. If she needs help, we will talk it through, but she will not get to "allow" me this, or that. It is my choice.


----------



## triggerhappy

jaquen said:


> Really? You didn't write this on the previous page?
> 
> "they don't have to accept it as normal male behavior, *because it's not.*"



Allow me to correct myself. What I meant is that it is not necessary. it's normal because we live in a porn saturated society. I was trying to have an open mind during the discussion, but I guess you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. I was actually correcting myself and making myself clearer on the subject.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

T&T said:


> The wifey out of town tonight. As good a time as any to watch a bit of porn.


Damn, porn is just the bee's knees, isn't it?


----------



## triggerhappy

jaquen said:


> No. If I was to give up porn, I would give it up for myself, because I no longer believed in watching/using it.
> 
> If my woman came to me and suddenly said that she didn't want me to watch it, I would remind her that we married under the pretense that she was comfortable with who I was, who I honestly stated up front to be, and that she should find a way to remedy her change in attitude.
> 
> In this example, she changed, not me. And she should find a way to reconcile that. If she needs help, we will talk it through, but she will not get to "allow" me this, or that. It is my choice.


and you know what, I respect that. I can honestly respect that answer.


----------



## jaquen

triggerhappy said:


> Allow me to correct myself. What I meant is that it is not necessary. it's normal because we live in a porn saturated society. I was trying to have an open mind during the discussion, but I guess you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. I was actually correcting myself and making myself clearer on the subject.


Then we, again I will say, agree. 

Porn is not necessary for a successful, healthy relationship.

What I consider "necessary" for a successful, healthy relationship is simple; if just you, and your spouse, were stranded on a deserted island, with nothing but an array of food, basic clothing, and adequate shelter, and this was to be your existence from now until you die, do you believe you have all that you need to make, or continue, a successful relationship?

I think the honest, truly introspective answer to that question can yield a lot of truth about your relationship.


----------



## Drover

*Re: Re: Why are women afraid to stand up against porn?*



Tigger said:


> Anyone who has a wife who lays there like a log and wants to hurry up and get it over with quick, do you know why she is doing that? Have you asked her? Do you even care?
> 
> The men seem to insinuate they are using porn because their needs are being met at home.
> 
> What about the guys who get it as much as they want? Why are they using porn?


That's exactly what I was addressing.


----------



## aribabe

Littlebird,

Now you know i do
Don't we all?

When we're in bed i say "Bite it Baby"
He knows what I mean




LittleBird said:


> Do you like your clitoris bitten?
> 
> :smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## Drover

*Re: Re: Why are women afraid to stand up against porn?*



aribabe said:


> Littlebird,
> 
> Now you know i do
> Don't we all?
> 
> When we're in bed i say "Bite it Baby"
> He knows what I mean


something to try next time i'm down there?


----------



## Tony55

Ladies, don't be afraid to reign in your husbands if you're uncomfortable with porn, many men, believe it our not, don't mind a wife's effort to keep his sexual focus on her. I like porn as much as the next guy, but I think it would bother me more if my wife acted as if my pursuit of porn was unimportant to her; I'd much rather she give me sh1t if she walked in on me looking at porn than have her shrug and walk on by. It's not about control, or permission, or being a prude, it's about being a couple, and couples do things with each other that exposes parts of themselves that they wouldn't normally share with other people... pictures, film or otherwise.

Keep us straight ladies, some of us appreciate it.

T


----------



## MattMatt

triggerhappy said:


> this is not against any particular man in here, but instead for women in general. Excuse my grammatical errors, English is my second language.
> 
> 
> I read some of the threads here in total and utter disbelief. I mean total shock!
> 
> I really don't even know where to begin....
> 
> 
> Porn is not anyone's God-given right. I see women making excuses for their husbands, saying they could watch porn only x times a week, and only view pictures, or "pre-recorded porn", they can't view live web cams, etc. :scratchhead:
> 
> What the hell is going on with our society? why are women afraid to put their foot down and give ultimatums? is it because they are really afraid of being left? is someone who chooses pron over your feelings really worth keeping and fighting for?
> 
> I read many threads where women come here pouring their hearts out about the hurt they feel over finding out their husband is watching porn, forget about being addicted to it. Obviously, the husband was aware how much it would hurt his partner before they even got married, I'm sure every couple discusses it before they make their life-long commitment, yet some male members here quickly jump to defend porn seem to overlook the fact that it's a betrayal because they are so selfishly defending their right to view it, without stopping for one second to think about the woman's feelings. They quickly turn it into a topic where the woman wants to have "control". What's so bad about wanting to have control in your marriage? the reason a lot of marriages fail is because people LOSE control over their marriages. You better believe I'm going to want to control certain aspects of our marriage, and guess what? there's nothing wrong with that! anyone who screams bloody murder over control is someone you should not trust to begin with. Anyone who cries over "MY privacy" is someone who is not ready and shouldn't be in a long-term committed relationship.
> 
> This is the part I don't ever get... if you knew your wife or gf doesn't like porn, and you know it hurts her why are you in a relationship or marriage with her to begin with? do you realizing you're fraudulently leading this person on to believe that you are not the person who she thought she married, or moved in with? I see many men who knowingly enter a relationship aware their wife or gf doesn't want to be with someone who views porn, and when they get caught they try to defend it like they're entitled to view it, like it's scientifically their God-given right (like the air they breath) to have access to it. If they only knew how sick this makes them look, how extremely pathetic they are.
> 
> 
> Oh I know I'm going to get blasted for this, and I don't care! if you have a spouse who is hurt by porn and you continue to watch it, or sneak watching it behind their back, guess what? you have a problem! don't try turning it around by telling them to accept it, or to relax it's just sex, or just porn, because it's not. Admit to yourself, without being so defensive that it breaks up marriages, for whatever reason, it breaks them up, so why not just give it up?! if you can't then you have an addiction. Anything you cannot give up IS AN ADDICTION!
> 
> I really don't care what men have to say to me because I'm so mad that women are toptoeing around the topic, trying not to upset the pro-porn crusaders for fear of being viewed as the one with the problem. Isn't that crazy, though? women are being berated for not allowing their husbands to have full access to porn at home, in the office, the car, anywhere! does that seem crazy to you? because it is!!
> 
> Please ladies, stand up for yourselves, don't accept this because you don't have to. What are you so afraid of losing? a guy who puts his desire for porn before your feelings of hurt?
> 
> This has gotten to the point of pure ridiculousness, and I can't believe women have become literally afraid to have a voice in this matter. If you're not ok with porn, throw the husband or bf out, or move out! let them jerkoff in their mothers basement to porn and video games all they want. Let them! let them be all alone in the world so they could feel like the losers they are. Let them!!!:scratchhead:


Triggerhappy, what about women who use pornography? 

I knew of one married couple the husband would be asked to go to the nearest porn shop that sold XXX hardcore material to buy some pretty intense hardcore pornography on his wife's behalf. She told me this herself. Her husband did not like porn.


----------



## Drover

*Re: Re: Why are women afraid to stand up against porn?*



MattMatt said:


> Triggerhappy, what about women who use pornography?
> 
> I knew of one married couple the husband would be asked to go to the nearest porn shop that sold XXX hardcore material to buy some pretty intense hardcore pornography on his wife's behalf. She told me this herself. Her husband did not like porn.


I bet he wouldn't care for her discussing it with you either.


----------



## jaquen

MattMatt said:


> Triggerhappy, what about women who use pornography?


Reminds me of the poor guy who came on to TAM upset that his wife was reading 50 Shades of Grey, and was uber aroused by it, and started preferring reading the book over having sex with him. I'd talked to his wife about her choosing erotica over him, but she made no changed. 

The vast majority of the women in the thread, and a few of the men, replied by saying that he should be grateful she's turned on at all, and proceeded to recommend different kinds of erotica that she could enjoy even more than 50 Shades.

Needless to say, the man was floored at the responses.


----------



## Cletus

LittleBird said:


> I'm just wondering what ever happened to imagination.
> 
> What did men do during the several centuries predating Playboy and the Internet?
> 
> I'm confused.
> 
> And if you're already aroused, WTF is the point of watching something designed to make you aroused?


How can you get an undergraduate education in law and not get exposed to Greek sculpture?


----------



## Cletus

triggerhappy said:


> No offense to him, but he's not the perfect example of a man to gain "insight" from. Especially since there seems to be a conflict of interest and he obviously feels entitled to view porn if his wife doesn't put out...or else.


Keep building your strawmen and keep knocking them down. That'll prove your point.

That you don't believe you can gain any insight from me shows the utter depth of your lack of understanding of the question. Because regardless of my sexual relationship with my wife, I'm pretty representative of the male population as a whole. You don't have to like, you don't even have to accept it, but you cannot make it go away.


----------



## Cletus

triggerhappy said:


> But why do you BELIEVE that EVERYONE in EVERY corner of our earth MUST be secretly watching porn? If you believe that, truly, do you think that maaayyybe, perhaps, _your_ point of view is contorted?
> 
> What goes on in your head to believe that everyone MUST be watching it secretly? what happened in your life that made you believe that to be gospel? no offense, I'm just asking a simple question that I'm very curious to get an answer to.


Ok, time to knock it the hell off, because I never said that. If you want to have a conversation with people, you'd do well to stick with what they actually say, not what you want them to say.

I know that there are men who don't watch porn. But I've never met one. Oh, wait. I actually do know one. One out of all my male acquaintances whom I've been around when the topic has come up in casual conversation.

What's one of the very oldest pieces of extant art we have in the modern world? That's right - it's a naked woman.


----------



## LittleBird

Cletus said:


> Keep building your strawmen and keep knocking them down. That'll prove your point.
> 
> That you don't believe you can gain any insight from me shows the utter depth of your lack of understanding of the question. Because regardless of my sexual relationship with my wife, I'm pretty representative of the male population as a whole. You don't have to like, you don't even have to accept it, but you cannot make it go away.


I personally think it's really quite sad when grown men feel they need to watch porn to get a jolly. 

Actually sad. I feel pity.


----------



## Cletus

LittleBird said:


> I personally think it's really quite sad when grown men feel they need to watch porn to get a jolly.
> 
> Actually sad. I feel pity.


Well, well, well. Kitty has claws after all.

Your pity is duly noted and categorized commensurate with the health of your own sexual relationship, such as it is.


----------



## LittleBird

Cletus said:


> Well, well, well. Kitty has claws after all.
> 
> Your pity is duly noted and categorized commensurate with the health of your own sexual relationship, such as it is.


Kitty does have claws. Very sharp, well honed claws that she's had to use on grown men since she can remember.

But that wasn't meant to be snark.

Considering you often lament your own sex life....pot....meet kettle. 

I have no desire to fight with you, Uncle Cletus.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

I have spoken at length to many women on this subject and to many that hate porn. However many do turn a blind eye to it, and some tried to embrace it.

I found that most felt it was hopeless, and their feelings on it did not matter. Many others who tried to embrace it did so, so that they would be seen as sexy and cool. Many did not want to be seen as prudes and some because they did not want to have sex. 

All of those reasons I find sad.

Many women also get turned on by porn whilst simultaneously not feeling right about it. That's me I guess. I choose not to watch it, because I feel the price paid for porn use is too high for relationships, connection, men and women. It sickens me. 

I do however make my feelings about it clear, but even if I hadn't and my feelings were or came to be that porn upset me greatly, I would hope I had chosen a mate who loved me, cherished me enough to put me first, to care about my feelings as I do his. Anything that upsets him now or in the future and makes him feel bad or think less of me, will I'm sure inspire change in me, because I'm in a caring loving relationship, and my relationship comes before my selfish desires.


----------



## MEM2020

How long have you been married?


----------



## MEM2020

Trigger, 
What you are going to discover in a long term relationship is that any major sexual disconnects will be very painful. 

You can choose to pull the trigger when that happens, or try to work around those disconnects. In the former case you won't likely have relationships which last very long. As to what the work around is, that varies by couple.


----------



## jaquen

LittleBird said:


> I personally think it's really quite sad when grown men feel they need to watch porn to get a jolly.
> 
> Actually sad. I feel pity.


----------



## janesmith

If porn is a deal breaker then a woman should never entertain the thought of being with someone who uses it. When they communicate how they feel and cant come to an understanding with their partner, that person should never be considered as a mate. I don't understand knowing this about someone and staying in the relationship.


----------



## Drover

*Re: Re: Why are women afraid to stand up against porn?*



janesmith said:


> If porn is a deal breaker then a woman should never entertain the thought of being with someone who uses it. When they communicate how they feel and cant come to an understanding with their partner, that person should never be considered as a mate. I don't understand knowing this about someone and staying in the relationship.


I tend to agree with this. If it's a dealbreaker, then it is. But you should both know each other's dealbreakers in advance. 

And if you consider something a dealbreaker that will force you to reject someone you otherwise love, and it happens to something many consider insignificant, maybe you should give serious thought to your own motivations and why you feel the way you do. It may just be some issue you yourself can/should work on rather than push on someone else...or maybe not, but you should do the work with an open mind yourself first.


----------



## Tony55

LittleBird said:


> I personally think it's really quite sad when grown men feel they need to watch porn to get a jolly.
> 
> Actually sad. I feel pity.


At the end of the day, the complicated physiological mechanics of what causes men to have that near constant pull toward all things female, is rooted directly to his level of testosterone; a man with high levels will most often express stronger urges toward sexually oriented behavior and the opposite is true as those levels wane. This higher vs lower levels of testosterone doesn't seem to affect a mans attraction to women or even that he enjoys sex with them, but it DOES affect the intensity and frequency of those urges.

To put the testosterone levels in perspective, men vs women, note this information from the National Institutes of Health:

Male: 300 -1,000 ng/dL
Female: 15 - 70 ng/dL
These are the 'normal' ranges. Think about that for a moment. If one was to inject testosterone into a woman and bring her levels up to 500 ng/dl, she would have a sexual hunger like she's never known, she would get a small glimpse into the male mind, insofar as 'urge' (of course, she would also grow facial hair and get a deeper voice, enlarged clitoris, male pattern baldness and a number of other potentially undesirable side effects). On the other hand, a man who found his testosterone in the female range of 15-70 ng/dl, would more than likely NOT be spending much time looking at porn, if any at all. He'll still recognize a woman's beauty or sexual attractiveness, but beyond that recognition, he'll feel little, if any, desire to act on it. His craving will be squelched (and, of course, he would probably not be very healthy and prone to a number of ailments that come with abnormally low testosterone).

With all this said, establishing that men have a craving to be exposed to female nudity, and that doing so causes an erection and a strong desire/need for release, which is pretty much beyond their control (just like it's nearly impossible for your mouth not to water when you enter a pizzeria and get a whiff of a fresh hot pizza), but even with the understanding that all this is normal behavior, it still doesn't give an individual a free ticket to act on it whenever they like. We're all aware of the restrictions that come into play in social situations, but there are also restrictions to acting on this innate behavior in familial situations; just because it's natural to FEEL this way, doesn't make it ok to act on it openly (unless everyone involved agreed that it was ok).

I personally don't think it's healthy for a man to have too much exposure to pornography, I believe there's a psychological toll to be paid. I rank self restriction to porn right up there with restricting our food intake, alcohol consumption and couch potato time, it's probably better to do all those in moderation. And by default, it seems when men have a good woman, she automatically takes charge of his health status (not all women, but as a rule), they push for Dr appointments, restrict junk food, make us get off our a$$ and cut the grass, and yes, sometimes yell that that better not be porn your looking at on that computer... that's life, most often she wouldn't do these things if she didn't care.


T


----------



## Thundarr

Tony55 said:


> I personally don't think it's healthy for a man to have too much exposure to pornography, I believe there's a psychological toll to be paid. I rank self restriction to porn right up there with restricting our food intake, alcohol consumption and couch potato time, *it's probably better to do all those in moderation.* And by default, it seems when men have a good woman, she automatically takes charge of his health status (not all women, but as a rule), they push for Dr appointments, restrict junk food, make us get off our a$$ and cut the grass, and yes, sometimes yell that that better not be porn your looking at on that computer... that's life, most often she wouldn't do these things if she didn't care.


Amen. Moderation and balance solves most problems in life including compatibility issues on a broad spectrum.


----------



## ocotillo

Tony55 said:


> If one was to inject testosterone into a woman and bring her levels up to 500 ng/dl, she would have a sexual hunger like she's never known, she would get a small glimpse into the male mind, insofar as 'urge'.


T doesn't affect all women (Or men either) this way, but those for whom it does have said that it is very unpleasant and not something they would wish to repeat.

A relatively small percentage of women experience this at menopause. The ovaries greatly scale back estrogen production while merrily churning out testosterone. Sexual desire goes absolutely through the roof. 

These women report insomnia, intense sexual dreams, problems concentrating at work; unwanted and unwelcome ideas about male colleagues popping into their heads almost every day, frequent sexual fantasies, etc. In short, they sound an awful lot like men.

This isn't said in defense of porn. --Only to facilitate understanding of the nature of the temptation.


----------



## triggerhappy

Cletus said:


> Ok, time to knock it the hell off, because I never said that. If you want to have a conversation with people, you'd do well to stick with what they actually say, not what you want them to say.
> 
> I know that there are men who don't watch porn. But I've never met one. Oh, wait. I actually do know one. One out of all my male acquaintances whom I've been around when the topic has come up in casual conversation.
> 
> What's one of the very oldest pieces of extant art we have in the modern world? That's right - it's a naked woman.


Yes you did say that by quoting Dan savage as one of "the best advice". You totally implied that people who say don't watch it are lying, thus everyone must watch it secretly, and lie about it.



> Dan Savage is the author of the best advice about porn in a relationship with a woman who doesn't like it. To make it work, the guy pretends he doesn't use porn, and his spouse pretends to believe him.
> 
> No one really lies, but everyone winks and respects their difference of opinion.



You come off as very bitter, and very defensive over this subject which you obviously have made your decree about. You contradicted yourself already in posting the ultimatums you gave your wife. You obviously feel entitled to porn. That kind of relationship must suck..

You're a perfect prime example of a pro-porn crusader. You see unlike me, who doesn't have a problem with couples who mutually enjoy porn, you on the other hand have to knock down women who will not stand for it. It's like you take it to heart and you have to berate them, and be condescending, and annoying. You're also an online bully, and I can sense your abusive energy, and I will not waste another movement of my fingers on you. I refuse to give you anymore attention.


----------



## triggerhappy

Right now there are dozens of women reading this thread who are terrified to post in it.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

triggerhappy said:


> Right now there are dozens of women reading this thread who are terrified to post in it.


The patriarchy and teh menz are opressing them?

If you seriously believe that porn is a deal breaker, talk about this with your partner(as it has been said before), as simple as that.


----------



## mildlyperplexed

Whats so offensive about porn? I don't mean specific genres as some are obviously offensive. I really don't understand why people have such strong feelings about it.

I'm a woman btw since there seems to be a bit of a men vs women thing going on in this thread.


----------



## AnnieAsh

If a couple agrees that porn is ok...I don't see the big deal. I'm not going to police other people's personal lives. Have fun you two! *wink wink nudge nudge*

When it comes to my own life, yeah you know what, I do have a say. I don't like my husband to watch. Not because I have a moral stance against it but because I am not attracted to a man who sits and plays the old hambone in front of a computer. I can't look at him and think ohhh sexy baby! 

Now, we were friends before we actually started dating. He knew I had dumped a boyfriend because he seemed to be really, really REALLY into porn. Wanted me to try something called "gaping." I said, "guys who watch porn a lot seem to be the worst in bed. They just pound at you for 20 min, then ask to give you a facial." They waste perfectly good juices and energy on ogling random people on a screen. Wtf! 

Now, I've found out my husband watches TONS of porn. We still have sex (though not as creative as I'd like, more like mindless pounding) but I'm not satisfied. 2 times a week is just enough to p*ss me off. And when I look at him, I'm not thinking what a fine piece of white meat I've got there! (Heh I'm black, he's white) I'm thinking jeez I wonder if he's fapping in the car again. 

He knew my preferences and lied to my face. No, I don't like pornography in my marriage.


----------



## john_lord_b3

AnnieAsh said:


> If a couple agrees that porn is ok...I don't see the big deal. I'm not going to police other people's personal lives. Have fun you two! *wink wink nudge nudge*


:smthumbup:



> When it comes to my own life, yeah you know what, I do have a say. I don't like my husband to watch. Not because I have a moral stance against it but because I am not attracted to a man who sits and plays the old hambone in front of a computer. I can't look at him and think ohhh sexy baby!
> 
> Now, we were friends before we actually started dating. He knew I had dumped a boyfriend because he seemed to be really, really REALLY into porn. Wanted me to try something called "gaping." I said, "guys who watch porn a lot seem to be the worst in bed. They just pound at you for 20 min, then ask to give you a facial." They waste perfectly good juices and energy on ogling random people on a screen. Wtf!
> 
> Now, I've found out my husband watches TONS of porn. We still have sex (though not as creative as I'd like, more like mindless pounding) but I'm not satisfied. 2 times a week is just enough to p*ss me off. And when I look at him, I'm not thinking what a fine piece of white meat I've got there! (Heh I'm black, he's white) I'm thinking jeez I wonder if he's fapping in the car again.
> 
> He knew my preferences and lied to my face. No, I don't like pornography in my marriage.



ohh that's awful! I will be mad if I were you!! 

Yeah right he is lying! That is a disgraceful behavior! 

No excuses here!


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

> We're not talking about people who aren't "much into it", as you put it, it's about *men* who are deeply hurt by it and do feel threatened by it. Who is anyone to tell them to get over it?
> 
> If you like it and allow it, yes I used the word "allow" omg, kill me, then that's ok, but if someone is hurt by it, and they set boundaries before the relationship took off, and those boundaries were crossed and they were betrayed, how can you expect a *husband* not to have a strong emotional reaction to it? :scratchhead:
> 
> 
> Just replace porn with something that hurts you deeply, and then insert the example you wrote down about not allowing your *man* to have a bon-bon.. a comparison which is ridiculous and see how you would feel. It's easy to say you wouldn't mind porn when you have no problem with it to begin with.


 Discuss! Oh I agree with what you are trying to say *NOW*, but you are moving the goal posts.


----------



## Cletus

triggerhappy said:


> Yes you did say that by quoting Dan savage as one of "the best advice". You totally implied that people who say don't watch it are lying, thus everyone must watch it secretly, and lie about it.


No I did not. I quoted an internationally known sex columnist whose advice I agree with. I shouldn't have to preface everything here with "In my opinion".

The rest of that sentence is a complete fabrication. The least offensive thing I can say at this point is you are mistaken. 

I would love to have had a discussion about this with you, but I can't. You want to argue with a caricature to whom you can feel superior. You've done it to jaquen and now you're doing it to me. It's intellectually dishonest and I'm not inclined to just roll over and submit to it.



> You come off as very bitter


You want the definition of bitter? Re-read your opening post on this topic.



> You contradicted yourself already in posting the ultimatums you gave your wife. You obviously feel entitled to porn. That kind of relationship must suck..


Jesus tapdancing Christ.

You need to go back and reread this entire thread, at least the post to which you are referring. I have 

*NEVER*

made an ultimatum to my wife about pornography. We live by the Dan Savage code and it works just fine, for the two times a month I might indulge in a little pornography.

And you have the pair to call me a bully?



> You're also an online bully, and I can sense your abusive energy, and I will not waste another movement of my fingers on you. I refuse to give you anymore attention.


Then I guess I get the last word in. Unless I'm very much mistaken, the forum as a whole knows who's acting irrationally here.


----------



## jaquen

So I guess my question is, what exactly is the final result?

If you're a woman for whom porn use is a "deal breaker", then why not leave? Because there seems to be an awful lot of women who claim they won't abide porn in their marriages who, nevertheless, are still married...


----------



## CuddleBug

For my wifee, she would be against us watching porn because she is a larger women, has a LD to begin with, knows she can't do all the positions these women can do, and doesn't want me looking at gorgeous women having insane sex. This makes my wife feel totally insecure and inadequate. If the average women out there all looked like porn stars, then I'm sure my wife wouldn't mind us watching porn.

And porn is mainly for men because we are visually stimulated and have high sex drives and take little to no foreplay to get us in the mood.

We don't read many books, we don't need to talk about it over and over, we just want sex.


----------



## Maricha75

jaquen said:


> So I guess my question is, what exactly is the final result?
> 
> If you're a woman for whom porn use is a "deal breaker", then why not leave? Because there seems to be an awful lot of women who claim they won't abide porn in their marriages who, nevertheless, are still married...


Ummm... Jaquen, I am one who will not abide porn in my marriage... I am still married... there is no porn in my marriage. And, if for some reason he started watching it and I was unable to leave or kick him out, we'd be in separate rooms. When I say I won't tolerate it, I mean exactly that: I won't tolerate it. What's hard to understand about that? :scratchhead:


----------



## Maricha75

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Discuss! Oh I agree with what you are trying to say *NOW*, but you are moving the goal posts.


There ARE men who have this issue as well. My husband is one who considers porn a dealbreaker as well, so.....


----------



## mildlyperplexed

CuddleBug said:


> For my wifee, she would be against us watching porn because she is a larger women, has a LD to begin with, knows she can't do all the positions these women can do, and doesn't want me looking at gorgeous women having insane sex. This makes my wife feel totally insecure and inadequate. If the average women out there all looked like porn stars, then I'm sure my wife wouldn't mind us watching porn.
> 
> And porn is mainly for men because we are visually stimulated and have high sex drives and take little to no foreplay to get us in the mood.


There is plenty of porn featuring larger/ordinary women, theres no need to watch films of fake women in improbable positions. Do what works for you and your wife but remember rule 34


----------



## jaquen

Maricha75 said:


> Ummm... Jaquen, I am one who will not abide porn in my marriage... I am still married... there is no porn in my marriage. And, if for some reason he started watching it and I was unable to leave or kick him out, we'd be in separate rooms. When I say I won't tolerate it, I mean exactly that: I won't tolerate it. What's hard to understand about that? :scratchhead:


I know you are anti-porn in your marriage, as is your husband, and I know you've made that perfectly clear, and there is no porn in your marriage.

So I'm a little confused why you responded to that post when it doesn't fit your life at all.

The question is in relation to the women this thread is addressed to; those who consider porn a dealbreaker, but are married to men who watch porn.


----------



## Maricha75

CuddleBug said:


> For my wifee, she would be against us watching porn because* she is a larger women*, has a LD to begin with, knows she can't do all the positions these women can do, and doesn't want me looking at gorgeous women having insane sex. This makes my wife feel totally insecure and inadequate. If the average women out there all looked like porn stars, then I'm sure my wife wouldn't mind us watching porn.
> 
> And porn is mainly for men because we are visually stimulated and have high sex drives and take little to no foreplay to get us in the mood.
> 
> We don't read many books, we don't need to talk about it over and over, we just want sex.


Maybe it's the combination of all you said in the description of her, but the larger woman part isn't significant to all larger women. Just to clarify... I am a larger woman. My dislike of porn has nothing to do with my size. I have seen it before. The bit I saw before, I found disgusting, but that's JMO. My personal religious convictions play the largest part in my feelings toward porn.


----------



## Maricha75

jaquen said:


> I know you are anti-porn in your marriage, as is your husband, and I know you've made that perfectly clear, and there is no porn in your marriage.
> 
> So I'm a little confused why you responded to that post when it doesn't fit your life at all.
> 
> The question is in relation to the women this thread is addressed to; those who consider porn a dealbreaker, but are married to men who watch porn.


It's the way you worded it. 
It was ambiguous, to me anyway.


----------



## Tigger

Tony55 said:


> At the end of the day, the complicated physiological mechanics of what causes men to have that near constant pull toward all things female, is rooted directly to his level of testosterone; a man with high levels will most often express stronger urges toward sexually oriented behavior and the opposite is true as those levels wane. This higher vs lower levels of testosterone doesn't seem to affect a mans attraction to women or even that he enjoys sex with them, but it DOES affect the intensity and frequency of those urges.
> 
> To put the testosterone levels in perspective, men vs women, note this information from the National Institutes of Health:
> 
> Male: 300 -1,000 ng/dL
> Female: 15 - 70 ng/dL
> These are the 'normal' ranges. Think about that for a moment. If one was to inject testosterone into a woman and bring her levels up to 500 ng/dl, she would have a sexual hunger like she's never known, she would get a small glimpse into the male mind, insofar as 'urge'
> T


I can see why spaying and neutering your pets does make them happier and live longer.:rofl:

I do understand about the hormones from a womans perspective.

I was always very HD until menopause and those hormones went away and the sex drive went away and it is like you said you love and appreciate maleness and mentally enjoy sex there isn't that drive or hunger for it anymore.


----------



## Davelli0331

When I was single, I always avoided women with very strong anti-porn stances. Not because I think porn is so awesome, but because it can be an indicator of a narrow-mindedness that would bleed into other areas of the relationship. I feel the same way about any kind of extreme stance.

It's important not to have that narrow-mindedness. For example, consider that for every W that comes on TAM railing against the evil that is porn, she has a H that for some reason would rather watch porn than have sex with her. Now, I readily agree that some of these men have a psychological dependency that exists completely irrespective of the marriage. I'm not discounting that, that is not the W's fault, and I sympathize with those women the same as I'd sympathize with a person whose spouse was addicted to drugs, gambling, etc.

But what about all those other H's, the ones who aren't actually addicted? There's a reason they don't want to have sex with their W's. Women sometimes act like they have a monopoly on sex-killing resentment, but just about every man I know feels the same way I do: When things with the W ain't clicking, when we feel like she's being naggy/bossy/disrespectful/outright rude, the _last thing_ we want to do is have sex with her.

I think what's really happening in a lot of these marriages is that you have some very deep-rooted problems that both spouses are responsible for causing, and that leads to a lack of intimacy. Because it's an easy target, women latch on to porn and proclaim that their H's are addicted to it instead of trying to fix the real problem. It's a great out for the W bc it takes all blame off of her and puts it on something that is still considered "sinful" by society at large.

I am in no way blaming the W's in these instances, but I am saying that I bet the H's would tell a _very_ different side of the story.


----------



## tacoma

Davelli0331 said:


> When I was single, I always avoided women with very strong anti-porn stances. Not because I think porn is so awesome, but because it can be an indicator of a narrow-mindedness that would bleed into other areas of the relationship.


I consider it a huge red flag for a stunted sexuality and insecurity issues.

I once dumped a girl over a Playboy magazine.

Life is too short for these silly little games of control.


----------



## Davelli0331

tacoma said:


> I consider it a huge red flag for a stunted sexuality and insecurity issues.


This, this, and more this. I absolutely could not agree with you more.


----------



## ladybird

triggerhappy said:


> this is not against any particular man in here, but instead for women in general. Excuse my grammatical errors, English is my second language.
> 
> 
> I read some of the threads here in total and utter disbelief. I mean total shock!
> 
> I really don't even know where to begin....
> 
> 
> Porn is not anyone's God-given right. I see women making excuses for their husbands, saying they could watch porn only x times a week, and only view pictures, or "pre-recorded porn", they can't view live web cams, etc. :scratchhead:
> 
> What the hell is going on with our society? why are women afraid to put their foot down and give ultimatums? is it because they are really afraid of being left? is someone who chooses pron over your feelings really worth keeping and fighting for?
> 
> I read many threads where women come here pouring their hearts out about the hurt they feel over finding out their husband is watching porn, forget about being addicted to it. Obviously, the husband was aware how much it would hurt his partner before they even got married, I'm sure every couple discusses it before they make their life-long commitment, yet some male members here quickly jump to defend porn seem to overlook the fact that it's a betrayal because they are so selfishly defending their right to view it, without stopping for one second to think about the woman's feelings. They quickly turn it into a topic where the woman wants to have "control". What's so bad about wanting to have control in your marriage? the reason a lot of marriages fail is because people LOSE control over their marriages. You better believe I'm going to want to control certain aspects of our marriage, and guess what? there's nothing wrong with that! anyone who screams bloody murder over control is someone you should not trust to begin with. Anyone who cries over "MY privacy" is someone who is not ready and shouldn't be in a long-term committed relationship.
> 
> This is the part I don't ever get... if you knew your wife or gf doesn't like porn, and you know it hurts her why are you in a relationship or marriage with her to begin with? do you realizing you're fraudulently leading this person on to believe that you are not the person who she thought she married, or moved in with? I see many men who knowingly enter a relationship aware their wife or gf doesn't want to be with someone who views porn, and when they get caught they try to defend it like they're entitled to view it, like it's scientifically their God-given right (like the air they breath) to have access to it. If they only knew how sick this makes them look, how extremely pathetic they are.
> 
> 
> Oh I know I'm going to get blasted for this, and I don't care! if you have a spouse who is hurt by porn and you continue to watch it, or sneak watching it behind their back, guess what? you have a problem! don't try turning it around by telling them to accept it, or to relax it's just sex, or just porn, because it's not. Admit to yourself, without being so defensive that it breaks up marriages, for whatever reason, it breaks them up, so why not just give it up?! if you can't then you have an addiction. Anything you cannot give up IS AN ADDICTION!
> 
> I really don't care what men have to say to me because I'm so mad that women are toptoeing around the topic, trying not to upset the pro-porn crusaders for fear of being viewed as the one with the problem. Isn't that crazy, though? women are being berated for not allowing their husbands to have full access to porn at home, in the office, the car, anywhere! does that seem crazy to you? because it is!!
> 
> Please ladies, stand up for yourselves, don't accept this because you don't have to. What are you so afraid of losing? a guy who puts his desire for porn before your feelings of hurt?
> 
> This has gotten to the point of pure ridiculousness, and I can't believe women have become literally afraid to have a voice in this matter. If you're not ok with porn, throw the husband or bf out, or move out! let them jerkoff in their mothers basement to porn and video games all they want. Let them! let them be all alone in the world so they could feel like the losers they are. Let them!!!:scratchhead:



I completely agree.. Even though most people will not!


----------



## Tigger

jaquen said:


> So I guess my question is, what exactly is the final result?
> 
> If you're a woman for whom porn use is a "deal breaker", then why not leave? Because there seems to be an awful lot of women who claim they won't abide porn in their marriages who, nevertheless, are still married...


I guess if you are a teen making minimum wage with no assets other than your beat up car and your cd collection, you can just walk out.

Most people have built lives which include children, property, investments, and other assets that must be figured out before "leaving"


----------



## triggerhappy

Davelli0331 said:


> When I was single, I always avoided women with very strong anti-porn stances. Not because I think porn is so awesome, but because it can be an indicator of a narrow-mindedness that would bleed into other areas of the relationship. I feel the same way about any kind of extreme stance.
> 
> It's important not to have that narrow-mindedness. For example, consider that for every W that comes on TAM railing against the evil that is porn, she has a H that for some reason would rather watch porn than have sex with her. Now, I readily agree that some of these men have a psychological dependency that exists completely irrespective of the marriage. I'm not discounting that, that is not the W's fault, and I sympathize with those women the same as I'd sympathize with a person whose spouse was addicted to drugs, gambling, etc.
> 
> But what about all those other H's, the ones who aren't actually addicted? There's a reason they don't want to have sex with their W's. Women sometimes act like they have a monopoly on sex-killing resentment, but just about every man I know feels the same way I do: When things with the W ain't clicking, when we feel like she's being naggy/bossy/disrespectful/outright rude, the _last thing_ we want to do is have sex with her.
> 
> I think what's really happening in a lot of these marriages is that you have some very deep-rooted problems that both spouses are responsible for causing, and that leads to a lack of intimacy. Because it's an easy target, women latch on to porn and proclaim that their H's are addicted to it instead of trying to fix the real problem. It's a great out for the W bc it takes all blame off of her and puts it on something that is still considered "sinful" by society at large.
> 
> I am in no way blaming the W's in these instances, but I am saying that I bet the H's would tell a _very_ different side of the story.


When I was single I avoided men who chose porn over meaningful relationships with real women because their narrow-mindedness and selfishness could spill out into other aspects of the relationship. Huge red flag..

I also believe they are addicts in deep denial. :/


----------



## AnnieAsh

jaquen said:


> So I guess my question is, what exactly is the final result?
> 
> If you're a woman for whom porn use is a "deal breaker", then why not leave? Because there seems to be an awful lot of women who claim they won't abide porn in their marriages who, nevertheless, are still married...


If he can't get it under control, then I will leave. He's not ok with me getting needs met elsewhere, so he's acting like a hypocrite.


----------



## ladybird

Davelli0331 said:


> When I was single, I always avoided women with very strong anti-porn stances. Not because I think porn is so awesome, but because it can be an indicator of a narrow-mindedness that would bleed into other areas of the relationship. I feel the same way about any kind of extreme stance.
> 
> It's important not to have that narrow-mindedness. For example, consider that for every W that comes on TAM railing against the evil that is porn, she has a H that for some reason would rather watch porn than have sex with her. Now, I readily agree that some of these men have a psychological dependency that exists completely irrespective of the marriage. I'm not discounting that, that is not the W's fault, and I sympathize with those women the same as I'd sympathize with a person whose spouse was addicted to drugs, gambling, etc.
> 
> But what about all those other H's, the ones who aren't actually addicted? There's a reason they don't want to have sex with their W's. Women sometimes act like they have a monopoly on sex-killing resentment, but just about every man I know feels the same way I do: When things with the W ain't clicking, when we feel like she's being naggy/bossy/disrespectful/outright rude, the _last thing_ we want to do is have sex with her.
> 
> I think what's really happening in a lot of these marriages is that you have some very deep-rooted problems that both spouses are responsible for causing, and that leads to a lack of intimacy. Because it's an easy target, women latch on to porn and proclaim that their H's are addicted to it instead of trying to fix the real problem. It's a great out for the W bc it takes all blame off of her and puts it on something that is still considered "sinful" by society at large.
> 
> I am in no way blaming the W's in these instances, but I am saying that I bet the H's would tell a _very_ different side of the story.


I know I am going to get blasted for this but i really don't care!!

Just to make it clear about the entire anti porn crap... I do not like it... I am far from shallow. a prude, Narrow minded and whatever else we are called.. Far from it. 

My husband knew from the very beginning. 

I did try to fix it... My husband told me it was inappropriate to send him dirty pictures of myself.. Inappropriate my ass, he is my husband for f$%^ sake. But he would watch porn and that was perfectly ok! Whatever. 

Men that don't want to have sex with their wives and watch porn instead are SELFISH.. I want sex pretty much all the time..Do i get it hell no...


I did leave him by the way.... I was done...


----------



## mildlyperplexed

ladybird said:


> Men that don't want to have sex with their wives and watch porn instead are SELFISH.. I want sex pretty much all the time


What about the men and women who watch porn and also have sex with their partner when possible? Is that also wrong in your view?


----------



## AnnieAsh

Ladybird, I'm finding myself in the same place you are!

I have to laugh when people call women who don't enjoy porn "narrow minded." Eff that! I am a freaky gal and I'm proud of it. My husband cannot keep up with me. Porn is easy for him. It doesn't require kisses or ask to try something new. It doesn't require him to last any longer than he wants. 

I avoided men who watched porn frequently because they were lazy and boring. Straight up.


----------



## triggerhappy

AnnieAsh said:


> I avoided men who watched porn frequently because they were lazy and boring.


Yes, this! 

Lazy and pathetic.


----------



## ladybird

mildlyperplexed said:


> What about the men and women who watch porn and also have sex with their partner when possible? Is that also wrong in your view?


 No not at all... 

Yes i have issues with porn, BUT every now and then ok... I didn't start having really big issues with it, until we stop having sex for months on end! I would come on to him and he would blow me off. Because of it.. I will not tolerate it ever again, because of what happened and I shouldn't have to


----------



## triggerhappy

But it proves my point that women get called names (belittled) because they won't allow porn in their lives. It's really a pathetic juvenile attempt at manipulation.


----------



## Tigger

I hope more women come on and post how they really feel.

I'm going to be brutally honest here and not hold back.

I found out my husband had lied to me before marriage saying he was an occasional porn user but no big deal and found out he was using it many times sometimes 20 times a week and turning me down for sex..

I would try to initiate and he would turn me down and I would go out to the store and when I checked his pc later it wasn't 5 minutes after I left, he was watching porn and pounding his pud.

This is what I thought for real.

*I instantly lost respect for him* because he lied. He stood there and lied to my face and said he was too tired when he wasn't. He lied about being an occasional porn user.

The image came into my mind of this pathetic male dog going around humping people's legs and stuffed animals with that goofy grin dogs have.

I mean good grief he isn't a flipping dog *doesn't he have the tiniest bit of self control?*

How could I not be totally repulsed and disgusted?

It made me think of him as childish and selfish like a grown man spending his entire paycheck on pokeman cards and star wars figures and not paying his electric, mortgage, etc.

I guess that is the part that bothers me is how many men feel they don't have to have any self control at all and are entitled to watch porn as much as they like. 

The image of a grown man sitting there in front of the screen pretending to have sex with strangers while spanking it is just so ridiculous too. Guess what, it is still your hand! 

I figure if he is so hooked and wants to spend that much time and sexual energy that could be devoted to me and if that is soooo important that he is willing to set up virtual machines to try to hide it, he can let those porn movies, cook his meals, keep him warm at night, care for him when he is sick, be a companion and friend and all those other things he gets from having a real relationship with a live woman.

If doing that is so much more important than anything I have to offer, he can just sit there with his hand and not expect anything from me.

If a man has no control with this maybe HE should go to the doctor to get some medicine to reduce his sex drive. We always talk about LD people and they need medical help. Well maybe there is something wrong with the HD men and they need meds to dial it back a bit. I hear some anti depressants tone the sex drive down.


----------



## mildlyperplexed

Men who watch porn are lazy, boring and pathetic and resort to juvenile name calling o0

Pot, kettle, black?

Whats wrong with letting people do what makes them happy? If someone needs to vent they should be able to so long as its not hurting anyone else.


----------



## ladybird

mildlyperplexed said:


> Men who watch porn are lazy, boring and pathetic and resort to juvenile name calling o0
> 
> Pot, kettle, black?
> 
> Whats wrong with letting people do what makes them happy? If someone needs to vent they should be able to so long as its not hurting anyone else.


 The problem is that it does HURT! Not everyone sees it that way, but for some people it does.

Trying to explain it over and over again, is pointless.


----------



## Tigger

AnnieAsh said:


> Ladybird, I'm finding myself in the same place you are!
> 
> I have to laugh when people call women who don't enjoy porn "narrow minded." Eff that! I am a freaky gal and I'm proud of it. My husband cannot keep up with me. Porn is easy for him. It doesn't require kisses or ask to try something new. It doesn't require him to last any longer than he wants.
> 
> I avoided men who watched porn frequently because they were lazy and boring. Straight up.


Yes I love the assumptions that if you don't like it, you are a prude. My husband could never keep up with me. 

I have found too that the porn addicts are truly the most boring, lazy, and bad lovers.


----------



## triggerhappy

mildlyperplexed said:


> Men who watch porn are lazy, boring and pathetic and resort to juvenile name calling o0
> 
> Pot, kettle, black?
> 
> Whats wrong with letting people do what makes them happy? If someone needs to vent they should be able to so long as its not hurting anyone else.


There are a lot of things in life that I'd like to do that would make me happy, but it doesn't make it right. What are we spoiled children? where is adult self-control and commitment? 

If a person wants to do what makes them "happy", and that which makes them "happy" hurts the person they're in a relationship with, then they are not mature and responsible enough to be in a relationship. They should be alone so they could do their "happy" things till their hearts content. 
Why can't they just stay alone, and stop hurting people and trying to justify it?


----------



## ladybird

Tigger said:


> Yes I love the assumptions that if you don't like it, you are a prude. My husband could never keep up with me.
> 
> I have found too that the porn addicts are truly the most boring, lazy, and bad lovers.


My husband can't keep up with me either.

I would rather do it, then watch it anyway..


----------



## Caribbean Man

Tony55 said:


> I personally don't think it's healthy for a man to have too much exposure to pornography, I believe there's a psychological toll to be paid. I rank self restriction to porn right up there with restricting our food intake, alcohol consumption and couch potato time, it's probably better to do all those in moderation. And by default, it seems when men have a good woman, she automatically takes charge of his health status (not all women, but as a rule), they push for Dr appointments, restrict junk food, make us get off our a$$ and cut the grass, and yes, sometimes yell that that better not be porn your looking at on that computer... that's life, most often she wouldn't do these things if she didn't care.
> T


:iagree:
My exact feelings on this issue.
I think that no woman nor man should have the authority to tell me what to look at and how to look at it.
However ,I strongly believe in self regulation and self governance.


----------



## Tigger

triggerhappy said:


> There are a lot of things in life that I'd like to do that would make me happy, but it doesn't make it right. What are we spoiled children? where is adult self-control and commitment?
> 
> If a person wants to do what makes them "happy", and that which makes them "happy" hurts the person they're in a relationship with, then they are not mature and responsible enough to be in a relationship. They should be alone so they could do their "happy" things till their hearts content.
> Why can't they just stay alone, and stop hurting people and trying to justify it?


Exactly! I would love to go out and spend an entire check on shoes or eat a gallon of ice cream in one sitting or wear my pjs to a business meeting but I don't do that. 

Because I'm an adult. I have self control.


----------



## tiredwife&sahm

Ugh..

I abhor when people make statements like "if you're so hurt then leave". Seriously, we have all been through enough in life to know that it isn't all black and white. There are alot of hurt people staying, you read the threads here you know this. 

I've always believed that in a marriage you have the right to speak up about things that hurt and bother you. You have the right to request that your spouse not do things to hurt you. It bothers me that some of the men here want to trivialize the hurt that some women feel in regards to porn. We are all different and we all have things that bother us in our relationship. None of the feelings we have about those issues are petty or ridiculous.It is not narrow-minded. It is how we feel. No one has the right to tell someone else that their feelings don't make sense or are petty. A woman bothered by porn does not need to do all this self evaluation to figure out why she does not like porn. It is nothing wrong with her. She just does not like it and that should be the end of it. All this self evaluation crap that people are trying push on some of these women is just that..crap. It is manipulation. If I cheat on my husband should I ask him to evaluate himself to figure what it is about him that made him not like it? Or if he's upset about me never wanting to have sex should I make it his fault? No, what I should do as a spouse that made vows to my husband is decide what is more important and if what I said is true on my wedding day, my husband is more important. People do not like to have their feelings trivialized and men that are married to women who do not like porn should not do this to them.


----------



## ladybird

tiredwife&sahm said:


> Ugh..
> 
> I abhor when people make statements like "if you're so hurt then leave". Seriously, we have all been through enough in life to know that it isn't all black and white. There are alot of hurt people staying, you read the threads here you know this.
> 
> I've always believed that in a marriage you have the right to speak up about things that hurt and bother you. You have the right to request that your spouse not do things to hurt you. It bothers me that some of the men here want to trivialize the hurt that some women feel in regards to porn. We are all different and we all have things that bother us in our relationship. None of the feelings we have about those issues are petty or ridiculous.It is not narrow-minded. It is how we feel. No one has the right to tell someone else that their feelings don't make sense or are petty. A woman bothered by porn does not need to do all this self evaluation to figure out why she does not like porn. It is nothing wrong with her. She just does not like it and that should be the end of it. All this self evaluation crap that people are trying push on some of these women is just that..crap. It is manipulation. If I cheat on my husband should I ask him to evaluate himself to figure what it is about him that made him not like it? Or if he's upset about me never wanting to have sex should I make it his fault? No, what I should do as a spouse that made vows to my husband is decide what is more important and if what I said is true on my wedding day, my husband is more important. People do not like to have their feelings trivialized and men that are married to women who do not like porn should not do this to them.


 I completely and totally agree!


----------



## triggerhappy

tiredwife&sahm said:


> Ugh..
> 
> I abhor when people make statements like "if you're so hurt then leave". Seriously, we have all been through enough in life to know that it isn't all black and white. There are alot of hurt people staying, you read the threads here you know this.
> 
> I've always believed that in a marriage you have the right to speak up about things that hurt and bother you. You have the right to request that your spouse not do things to hurt you. It bothers me that some of the men here want to trivialize the hurt that some women feel in regards to porn. We are all different and we all have things that bother us in our relationship. None of the feelings we have about those issues are petty or ridiculous.It is not narrow-minded. It is how we feel. No one has the right to tell someone else that their feelings don't make sense or are petty. A woman bothered by porn does not need to do all this self evaluation to figure out why she does not like porn. It is nothing wrong with her. She just does not like it and that should be the end of it. All this self evaluation crap that people are trying push on some of these women is just that..crap. It is manipulation. If I cheat on my husband should I ask him to evaluate himself to figure what it is about him that made him not like it? Or if he's upset about me never wanting to have sex should I make it his fault? No, what I should do as a spouse that made vows to my husband is decide what is more important and if what I said is true on my wedding day, my husband is more important. People do not like to have their feelings trivialized and men that are married to women who do not like porn should not do this to them.


Thank you, thank you, thank you.


----------



## TiggyBlue

tiredwife&sahm said:


> Ugh..
> 
> I abhor when people make statements like "if you're so hurt then leave". Seriously, we have all been through enough in life to know that it isn't all black and white. There are alot of hurt people staying, you read the threads here you know this.
> 
> I've always believed that in a marriage you have the right to speak up about things that hurt and bother you. You have the right to request that your spouse not do things to hurt you. It bothers me that some of the men here want to trivialize the hurt that some women feel in regards to porn. We are all different and we all have things that bother us in our relationship. None of the feelings we have about those issues are petty or ridiculous.It is not narrow-minded. It is how we feel. No one has the right to tell someone else that their feelings don't make sense or are petty. A woman bothered by porn does not need to do all this self evaluation to figure out why she does not like porn. It is nothing wrong with her. She just does not like it and that should be the end of it. All this self evaluation crap that people are trying push on some of these women is just that..crap. It is manipulation. If I cheat on my husband should I ask him to evaluate himself to figure what it is about him that made him not like it? Or if he's upset about me never wanting to have sex should I make it his fault? No, what I should do as a spouse that made vows to my husband is decide what is more important and if what I said is true on my wedding day, my husband is more important. People do not like to have their feelings trivialized and men that are married to women who do not like porn should not do this to them.


I don't mind porn myself but I completely agree with what you wrote, no one has the right to tell someone to be ok with porn anymore than anyone telling someone not to look at porn.
To keep dismissing someone's 'wiring' while justifying their own is completely pointless.


----------



## mildlyperplexed

Tigger said:


> Exactly! I would love to go out and spend an entire check on shoes or eat a gallon of ice cream in one sitting or wear my pjs to a business meeting but I don't do that.
> 
> Because I'm an adult. I have self control.


The great thing about being a grown up is the freedom to act like a child, if someone wants to curtail that freedom they have to give a good reason.

PS. You would spend a whole paycheck on shoes?? What would you even do with that many shoes?


----------



## Cletus

mildlyperplexed said:


> Men who watch porn are lazy, boring and pathetic and resort to juvenile name calling o0
> 
> Pot, kettle, black?
> 
> Whats wrong with letting people do what makes them happy? If someone needs to vent they should be able to so long as its not hurting anyone else.


That's the problem I'm having here with this thread.

If you are failing in your sexual obligations to your spouse because of porn, then you have a problem. Plenty of folks here have partners with mismatched sexual drives. As long as you're not flaunting it, there's no victim. Where there's no victim, there's no crime.


----------



## Thundarr

Yet again, there are women on this thread who are affected by their husbands choosing porn over having sex with them arguing anti-porn and there are men on this thread who are not doing this to their wives arguing pro-porn. *Well we're all right and all wrong. It depends on the scenario*......... Sometimes it's the problem. Sometimes it's a symptom. Sometimes it's not a problem at all. No wonder we bicker about it. 

Tigger, LisaB, your husbands are being a [email protected] Don't know why but that's a fact. Everyone knows there's a problem with a man who won't sleep with his wife but whacks to porn instead. Maybe he's addicted; maybe it's a bad marriage; maybe boundaries need to be really hammered out?

Bottom line; porn can never be the root problem. Maybe self control; insecurity; selfishness; incompatibility but never porn. I've never heard an instance where PORN forced a man to watch it and not satisfy his wife.

Even so, this thread has had moments where several anti-porn and pro-porn posters have agreed that context matters.


----------



## triggerhappy

> Bottom line; porn can never be the root problem


Yes it can. Tell that to all the women who have to deal with it. 

Why always try to turn it into "it's a deeper issue"? some women have no other issues than just the porn in their relationship. So if it were removed, I can't imagine what else would be replaced by it that would be so hurtful.


----------



## Thundarr

triggerhappy said:


> Yes it can. Tell that to all the women who have to deal with it.
> 
> Why always try to turn it into "it's a deeper issue"? some women have no other issues than just the porn in their relationship. So if it were removed, I can't imagine what else would be replaced by it that would be so hurtful.


Make porn disappear and the husband likely goes to strip clubs therefore he's the problem or the relationship dynamics are the problem. To watch porn is to actively choose to watch it.


----------



## triggerhappy

Thundarr said:


> Appologies TriggerHappy. Yes I meant Tigger. Will edit that post now.


thanks.


----------



## mildlyperplexed

I would guess its like MMO addiction, it gives you something safe to focus on because there are real things in your life you don't want to think about. It stops you hurting and you don't realise how destructive it is until you look up and realise its 3am and you haven't had a full nights sleep or a proper meal or spoken to anyone IRL in days. It looks like real addiction from the outside but the game has no hold over you once real life becomes bearable. In my case a new job and change of scenery fixed a lot.


----------



## ocotillo

mildlyperplexed said:


> Men who watch porn are lazy, boring and pathetic and resort to juvenile name calling o0


Really? Does that include men who've gone a year or more without sex despite racking their brains and trying everything they can think of with their wives?

Sorry to be 'Devils Advocate' but there it is....


----------



## mildlyperplexed

ocotillo said:


> Really? Does that include men who've gone a year or more without sex despite racking their brains and trying everything they can think of everything with their wife?
> 
> Sorry to be 'Devils Advocate' but there it is....


I feel misquoted XD


----------



## ocotillo

mildlyperplexed said:


> I feel misquoted XD


I would love to hear the observation fleshed out a little.


----------



## ladybird

Thundarr said:


> Yet again, there are women on this thread who are affected by their husbands choosing porn over having sex with them arguing anti-porn and there are men on this thread who are not doing this to their wives arguing pro-porn. *Well we're all right and all wrong. It depends on the scenario*......... Sometimes it's the problem. Sometimes it's a symptom. Sometimes it's not a problem at all. No wonder we bicker about it.
> 
> Tigger, LisaB, your husbands are being a [email protected] Don't know why but that's a fact. Everyone knows there's a problem with a man who won't sleep with his wife but whacks to porn instead. Maybe he's addicted; maybe it's a bad marriage; maybe boundaries need to be really hammered out?
> 
> Bottom line; porn can never be the root problem. Maybe self control; insecurity; selfishness; incompatibility but never porn. I've never heard an instance where PORN forced a man to watch it and not satisfy his wife.
> 
> Even so, this thread has had moments where several anti-porn and pro-porn posters have agreed that context matters.


 I vote for selfishness..

Context is what really matters.... I wouldn't have cared if my needs we being met by my husband. The bottom line is they were not, not at all. I had to do the digging to find out what was really going on... It was the lying and the deceit of all of it... He may as well be out sleeping with other woman as far as I was concerned.. Maybe a little extreme, but that is exactly how I felt. I would sit up an cry all freaking night long for nights on end. 

I know if the shoe was on the other foot, he would have NOT tolerated it in the least, If I would have withheld having sex from him..


----------



## ladybird

ocotillo said:


> Really? Does that include men who've gone a year or more without sex despite racking their brains and trying everything they can think of with their wives?
> 
> Sorry to be 'Devils Advocate' but there it is....


 Soooo not the case in my relationship. I was the one racking my brain trying to figure out what the problem was... According to him there was no problem!


----------



## mildlyperplexed

ocotillo said:


> I would love to hear the observation fleshed out a little.





> Men who watch porn are lazy, boring and pathetic and resort to juvenile name calling o0
> 
> *Pot, kettle, black?*
> 
> Whats wrong with letting people do what makes them happy? If someone needs to vent they should be able to so long as its not hurting anyone else.


o0 signifies a raised eyebrow too 

I'm squarely on the pro-porn side and even if I wasn't the anti-porn women havnt put up any kind of constructive argument. They flip flop between insulting, generalizing and then attempting to retake the moral high ground. Talk about perpetuating negative stereotypes.


----------



## ladybird

Porn CAN be the root of the problem!!!


----------



## ComicBookLady

I'm with you completely. Be open about who you are and stick to it. Don't tell your soon-to-be wife you'll never watch porn when you really will watch it in your marriage.

Personally, I HATE Porn in marriage (or otherwise, really) and I stand by it. I am not wrong for hating it. Women feel constant pressure to "be okay" with porn usage from their husband, otherwise there's something "wrong" with them. It's ridiculous. It's okay to not like it, ladies!

I also have to say people who DO enjoy it in their marriages are not wrong either. Everyone has different likes/dislikes. But _both_ people in the marriage should agree on the topic!


----------



## Elliott

What is a guy to do?... suffer

Before you go ape crazy on me, hear me out. 

If a husband is not getting enough sex (literally once or twice a month or every couple of months) how is he supposed to get satisfied? What are his choices?

1. Watch porn
2. Go to strip clubs
3. Pay prostitutes

Many women on here can agree that they are hurt at how porn has robbed them of a intimacy with there husband (I can understand that). I believe that a husband would not want to have sex with his wife because:

1. He's no longer physcially attracted to her
2. She only does the same things during sex
3. The lack of sex has lasted so long that he doesn't want you anymore.

At the same time the list of husbands whom are sexless on this website (and in the world) is growing (sex starved women can agree to this as well). Even single people can have sex more than twice a month, yet why should a married person have to settle for once or twice a month?


My wife told me not to watch porn (she used to watch it with me BEFORE the children). But then she'll admit that "she's sorry that she's not in the mood again for sex and can we schedule it?" So what am I to do?


In closing I don't think it's that some women are afraid to stand up. It's because they feel guilty, that they are not satisfying there husbands enough. They know it,... it's like a slap in the face that there husband is being turned on by some other woman. But the problem is that those same wives (for various reasons) let that happen. Why? Because they stopped doing what they were doing before the children were born. Every home wrecker and Gold digger knows the best way to steal your husband is to do all the things that you (the wife) won't. Strippers, prostitutes and porn stars know this as well. 

Women are masters of psychological warefare. But ladies, let's not forget that other women know the same tricks that you do, and they will use them on your husband.


----------



## mildlyperplexed

Elliott said:


> Women are masters of psychological warefare. But ladies, let's not forget that other women know the same tricks that you do, and they will use them on your husband.


I dont feel like a master of psychological warfare :scratchhead:


----------



## *LittleDeer*

TiggyBlue said:


> I don't mind porn myself but I completely agree with what you wrote, no one has the right to tell someone to be ok with porn anymore than anyone telling someone not to look at porn.
> To keep dismissing someone's 'wiring' while justifying their own is completely pointless.


I don't tell my SO to not be Ok with porn, I do tell him I'm not Ok with it, and I think he better care about that or it would seem to me there is something wrong with him and our relationship. Just as I care about what he's not Ok with.

People saying my wife/husband better not try and tell me what I cannot watch etc, well there are lots of things I'm not Ok with my SO doing, watching, and if he does they are deal breakers and boundaries I have set for me. That whole thing is the same justification men and women use who are cheating/ partying with their friends all the time and other behaviours that are generally relationship breakers. It's used as a justification to keep doing whatever you feel with no regard for your SO.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

jaquen said:


> You do realize that porn existed, and was prevalent, long before the advent of video, internet, or photography? Right??


No it wasn't prevelant. 

Where was this highly accessable, high speed available 24hrs a day porn?

Men did not stand around in caves in groups wanking over crude drawing of women, nor did they in eqyptian tombs I'm pretty sure. They were probably to busy having actual sex.


----------



## Elliott

mildlyperplexed said:


> I dont feel like a master of psychological warfare :scratchhead:


 Stop being humble you are...don't worry. You're trying to use it on me now by having me believe that you aren't.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

tacoma said:


> I consider it a huge red flag for a stunted sexuality and insecurity issues.
> 
> I once dumped a girl over a Playboy magazine.
> 
> Life is too short for these silly little games of control.



That's why the porn issue is so hard to discuss because men will allways try to shame women and emotionally manipulate them by name calling and saying things that are ridiculous. 

I do agree life is to short to play games, I'm upfront about why I don't like porn, why it's a deal breaker for me. I've never had a guy break up with me for it, and I've never been called sexually stunted nor insecure.

When it comes to insecurity I find more often then not men and women agree to things that make them uncomfortable and that they really don't like just to keep a man or a woman around. I have met many insecure women who are into porn and going to strip clubs etc.. because they are fraid if they don't agree to these things that he won't like her any more or ill call her a prude or insecure.


----------



## jaquen

triggerhappy said:


> There are a lot of things in life that I'd like to do that would make me happy, but it doesn't make it right. What are we spoiled children? where is adult self-control and commitment?
> 
> If a person wants to do what makes them "happy", and that which makes them "happy" hurts the person they're in a relationship with, then they are not mature and responsible enough to be in a relationship. They should be alone so they could do their "happy" things till their hearts content.
> Why can't they just stay alone, and stop hurting people and trying to justify it?



No, they should not be alone. They should be with somebody who doesn't have a fundamental problem with them watching porn.

What they need to do is stop being cowards. They should have the balls to say "Look, I enjoy porn, and I won't be giving it up just because you do not like it". That way the spouse who is hurting over this can know upfront what the deal is, and make the decisions they need to make in order to craft the life they want.

But the porn person doesn't need to be relegated to a lifetime of loneliness simply because the woman they're with hates porn. This is the 21st century, millions upon millions of women out there enjoy it themselves, and have no problem with their man enjoying it too.

It's a case of incompatibility. Both parties should release the other, and both should work on finding somebody with their shared view on sex, and sexuality.

The only down side is that the man who watches porn is more likely to find a new lover who doesn't mind, or enjoys herself, versus the anti-porn woman searching for the rare fish who never watches it.

But if the two people do want to stay together? Probably best to adopt a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. That's the best you're likely to get with most marriages when it comes to this topic; I don't look, and you don't tell.


----------



## Tigger

mildlyperplexed said:


> o0 signifies a raised eyebrow too
> 
> I'm squarely on the pro-porn side and even if I wasn't the anti-porn women havnt put up any kind of constructive argument. They flip flop between insulting, generalizing and then attempting to retake the moral high ground. Talk about perpetuating negative stereotypes.


You haven't made any constructive argument for men to keep doing it when they know it is hurtful to their wives.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

jaquen said:


> No, they should not be alone. They should be with somebody who doesn't have a fundamental problem with them watching porn.
> 
> What they need to do is stop being cowards. They should have the balls to say "Look, I enjoy porn, and I won't be giving it up just because you do not like it". That way the spouse who is hurting over this can know upfront what the deal is, and make the decisions they need to make in order to craft the life they want.
> 
> But the porn person doesn't need to be relegated to a lifetime of loneliness simply because the woman they're with hates porn. This is the 21st century, millions upon millions of women out there enjoy it themselves, and have no problem with their man enjoying it too.
> 
> It's a case of incompatibility. Both parties should release the other, and both should work on finding somebody with their shared view on sex, and sexuality.
> 
> The only down side is that the man who watches porn is more likely to find a new lover who doesn't mind, or enjoys herself, versus the anti-porn woman searching for the rare fish who never watches it.
> 
> But if the two people do want to stay together? Probably best to adopt a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. That's the best you're likely to get with most marriages when it comes to this topic; I don't look, and you don't tell.


Really? I've NEVER had a problem finding someone. And I've never been in a relationship where he's hidden it or lied about it. Allways very open in that regard, when it's ended I have ended it for other reasons.


----------



## TiggyBlue

*LittleDeer* said:


> I don't tell my SO to not be Ok with porn, I do tell him I'm not Ok with it, and I think he better care about that or it would seem to me there is something wrong with him and our relationship. Just as I care about what he's not Ok with.
> 
> People saying my wife/husband better not try and tell me what I cannot watch etc, well there are lots of things I'm not Ok with my SO doing, watching, and if he does they are deal breakers and boundaries I have set for me. That whole thing is the same justification men and women use who are cheating/ partying with their friends all the time and other behaviours that are generally relationship breakers. It's used as a justification to keep doing whatever you feel with no regard for your SO.


I meant what's being said on the forum, saying someone is insecure and should get use to it because some are 'wired' to look at porn as a defense instead of listening why someone actually dislikes porn.
Jealousy and insecurity seems to be said a lot by people who are 'pro porn', I thinks that pretty unfair.


----------



## jaquen

triggerhappy said:


> Yes it can. Tell that to all the women who have to deal with it.
> 
> Why always try to turn it into "it's a deeper issue"? some women have no other issues than just the porn in their relationship. So if it were removed, I can't imagine what else would be replaced by it that would be so hurtful.


If you truly believe porn is the root issue, than answer me this:

What exactly do you imagine would happen if all the pornographic material in the world just disappeared?


----------



## *LittleDeer*

TiggyBlue said:


> I meant what's being said on the forum, saying someone is insecure and should get use to it because some are 'wired' to look at porn as a defense instead of listening why someone actually dislikes porn.
> Jealousy and insecurity seems to be said a lot by people who are 'pro porn', I thinks that pretty unfair.


Gotcha, sorry.


----------



## Tigger

Elliott said:


> In closing I don't think it's that some women are afraid to stand up. It's because they feel guilty, that they are not satisfying there husbands enough. They know it,... it's like a slap in the face that there husband is being turned on by some other woman. But the problem is that those same wives (for various reasons) let that happen. Why? Because they stopped doing what they were doing before the children were born. Every home wrecker and Gold digger knows the best way to steal your husband is to do all the things that you (the wife) won't. Strippers, prostitutes and porn stars know this as well.
> 
> Women are masters of psychological warefare. But ladies, let's not forget that other women know the same tricks that you do, and they will use them on your husband.


lol really! I don't think there will a line of women waiting for these middle aged, balding, overweight, bad in bed, porn addicts.

Maybe she stopped having sex with him because he is overweight. poor hygiene, lazy in bed, unromantic.


----------



## jaquen

*LittleDeer* said:


> Men did not stand around in caves in groups wanking over crude drawing of women, nor did they in eqyptian tombs I'm pretty sure. They were probably to busy having actual sex.


They were too busy having actual sex...with women (and men) not their mates.

You really might want to avoid mining the past as some glorious example to look back on. Because all you'll do is replace the wacking men in front of the computer screen with men who frequent prostitutes, mistresses, concubines, and other men's wives.

Monogamy is largely a failed human endeavour, and far more so in the past, across most civilizations.

The "porn" was a combo of reading, art, and LIVE interactions.


----------



## TiggyBlue

jaquen said:


> They were too busy having actual sex...with women (and men) not their mates.
> 
> You really might want to avoid mining the past as some glorious example to look back on. Because all you'll do is replace the wacking men in front of the computer screen with men who frequent prostitutes, mistresses, concubines, and other men's wives.
> 
> Monogamy is largely a failed human endeavour, and far more so in the past, across most civilizations.
> 
> The "porn" was a combo of reading, art, and LIVE interactions.


So without porn people cheat?


----------



## Tigger

jaquen said:


> The only down side is that the man who watches porn is more likely to find a new lover who doesn't mind, or enjoys herself, versus the anti-porn woman searching for the rare fish who never watches it.
> 
> But if the two people do want to stay together? Probably best to adopt a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. That's the best you're likely to get with most marriages when it comes to this topic; I don't look, and you don't tell.


It is more likely a woman will find a man who actually respects her and cares about her feelings and won't rub porn in her face and tell her to get over it.

If you men want to have your porn, stay single. Get a dog for a companion and then you can enjoy your porn as much as you want.


----------



## jaquen

*LittleDeer* said:


> That's why the porn issue is so hard to discuss because men will allways try to shame women and emotionally manipulate them by name calling and saying things that are ridiculous.


Really? Because I think most would agree that the vast majority of shaming, and name calling, in this thread is originating from the anti-porners. 

Most of which aren't being called out for their hypocrisy, and disgusting attacks.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Elliott said:


> What is a guy to do?... suffer
> 
> Before you go ape crazy on me, hear me out.
> 
> If a husband is not getting enough sex (literally once or twice a month or every couple of months) how is he supposed to get satisfied? What are his choices?
> 
> 1. Watch porn
> 2. Go to strip clubs
> 3. Pay prostitutes


Umm how about masturbate and fix your marriage instead of using porn and not facing up to the realities that your sex life sucks. 

What's a woman to do when she's not satisfied? My ex wasn't satisfying me, he seemed lazy, didn't want to flirt, tell me I looked good, have sex as often. I liked, so I aksed him to help me fix it, and when he wouldn't I left him, I diod not cheat or use porn, I found someone more compatible. I did not mask the problem with porn.



> Many women on here can agree that they are hurt at how porn has robbed them of a intimacy with there husband (I can understand that). I believe that a husband would not want to have sex with his wife because:
> 
> 1. He's no longer physcially attracted to her
> 2. She only does the same things during sex
> 3. The lack of sex has lasted so long that he doesn't want you anymore.


There are a lot of men with porn issues, and most of those have nothing to do with his wife whatso ever, it's because porn is quick and easy and they are selfish. That's not allways the case but porn problems seem to be epidemic.



> At the same time the list of husbands whom are sexless on this website (and in the world) is growing (sex starved women can agree to this as well). Even single people can have sex more than twice a month, yet why should a married person have to settle for once or twice a month?


They shouldn't and they shouldn't settle for porn either. 



> My wife told me not to watch porn (she used to watch it with me BEFORE the children). But then she'll admit that "she's sorry that she's not in the mood again for sex and can we schedule it?" So what am I to do?


Find out why your wife has no sex drive. If she's not cheating nor watching porn then figure what else could be the problem, a physical issue? A personal issue?




> In closing I don't think it's that some women are afraid to stand up. It's because they feel guilty, that they are not satisfying there husbands enough. They know it,... it's like a slap in the face that there husband is being turned on by some other woman. But the problem is that those same wives (for various reasons) let that happen. Why? Because they stopped doing what they were doing before the children were born. Every home wrecker and Gold digger knows the best way to steal your husband is to do all the things that you (the wife) won't. Strippers, prostitutes and porn stars know this as well.


Yeah I don't get that at all, buut OK. 



> Women are masters of psychological warefare. But ladies, let's not forget that other women know the same tricks that you do, and they will use them on your husband.[/


Men must be masters too, as many women cheat also. weird.


----------



## jaquen

TiggyBlue said:


> So without porn people cheat?


People cheat, regardless. That's the point. Those who want to blame modern, easily accessible porn for cheating are ignoring the past. Human beings have always cheated, and in large numbers.

The only evidence we have is that women cheat more, on the whole, than they use to.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

jaquen said:


> Really? Because I think most would agree that the vast majority of shaming, and name calling, in this thread is originating from the anti-porners.
> 
> Most of which aren't being called out for their hypocrisy, and disgusting attacks.


If you say so. That's not what I see, in fact everytime it's discussed, women are accused of being prudes and so on.


----------



## Tigger

TiggyBlue said:


> I meant what's being said on the forum, saying someone is insecure and should get use to it because some are 'wired' to look at porn as a defense instead of listening why someone actually dislikes porn.
> Jealousy and insecurity seems to be said a lot by people who are 'pro porn', I thinks that pretty unfair.


That is what they think insecure and jealousy.

No way.


Guys, it makes some women lose respect for you. You look weak and pathetic. It's embarrassing. Many of us feel repulsed. 

Guys, that is how many women see you.


----------



## jaquen

*LittleDeer* said:


> Really? I've NEVER had a problem finding someone. And I've never been in a relationship where he's hidden it or lied about it. Allways very open in that regard, when it's ended I have ended it for other reasons.


That's nice, but what does this have to do with my post?


----------



## *LittleDeer*

jaquen said:


> They were too busy having actual sex...with women (and men) not their mates.
> 
> You really might want to avoid mining the past as some glorious example to look back on. Because all you'll do is replace the wacking men in front of the computer screen with men who frequent prostitutes, mistresses, concubines, and other men's wives.
> 
> Monogamy is largely a failed human endeavour, and far more so in the past, across most civilizations.
> 
> The "porn" was a combo of reading, art, and LIVE interactions.


Women have allways cheated too. But that's not the point, you allways make this same point that porn has allways been around and so on, like it's been so prolific when it actually hasn't.

And poor behaviour from the past doesn't excuse poor behaviour in the future. I thought we were all evolving, learning and trying have good marriages.

But hey if evryones allways done it...


----------



## *LittleDeer*

jaquen said:


> That's nice, but what does this have to do with my post?


Everything, trying to scare women into thinking there couldn't be many men willing to give up porn in order to be with women.

I've never had a problem with it. So yes everything.


----------



## Tigger

jaquen said:


> Really? Because I think most would agree that the vast majority of shaming, and name calling, in this thread is originating from the anti-porners.
> 
> Most of which aren't being called out for their hypocrisy, and disgusting attacks.


Women are being very honest explaining how they view men who use porn.

Maybe you don't want us to be honest?


----------



## jaquen

Tigger said:


> lol really! I don't think there will a line of women waiting for these middle aged, balding, overweight, bad in bed, porn addicts.
> 
> Maybe she stopped having sex with him because he is overweight. poor hygiene, lazy in bed, unromantic.


Projecting much? So who, exactly, said that men who watch porn (which is the VAST majority) are " middle aged, balding, overweight, bad in bed, porn addicts"?

Some of you are so bitter, and so angry, that you need to believe every single stereotype imaginable in order to make your stance seem superior, and your "enemy" as bad off as he possibly can.

Now how would it sound if we started reversing that stereotype? And claiming that all anti-porn women were fat, aging, frumpy, frigid eyesores who are horrendous in bed, and not worth the time it takes to pop a quick one off to a hot porn star?

How would you women, who are freely using these disgusting adjectives to attack men who enjoy porn, feel if we started turning the tables, and describing you in the ways you describe us in this thread?


----------



## jaquen

Tigger said:


> It is more likely a woman will find a man who actually respects her and cares about her feelings and won't rub porn in her face and tell her to get over it.


The chances are far greater that you'll just find a man who is much better at hiding it than the previous bloke.



Tigger said:


> If you men want to have your porn, stay single. Get a dog for a companion and then you can enjoy your porn as much as you want.


Or we could just find one of the many women who have no problem whatsoever with porn usage, even one who enjoys it herself.

Problem solved.


----------



## Tigger

jaquen said:


> Projecting much? So who, exactly, said that men who watch porn (which is the VAST majority) are " middle aged, balding, overweight, bad in bed, porn addicts"?
> 
> Some of you are so bitter, and so angry, that you need to believe every single stereotype imaginable in order to make your stance seem superior, and your "enemy" as bad off as he possibly can.
> 
> usting adjectives to attack men who enjoy porn, feel if we started turning the tables, and describing you in the ways you describe us in this thread?


Isn't that what you are doing portraying women as frigid, ant sexual weirdos because they have a problem with their husband wanking to porn?

With you logic, the only reason men are using porn is because they want to quickly get off to a hot porn star that their wife obviously isn't.

Why would you keep doing something you knew was hurting someone you claim to love?

Exactly why do you use porn?


----------



## jaquen

*LittleDeer* said:


> Women have allways cheated too. But that's not the point, you allways make this same point that porn has allways been around and so on, like it's been so prolific when it actually hasn't.


Porn was prolific. Just because it's more prolific now does not mean it was not prolific in the past.

You're using very poor logic, and continue to display a very ignorant, uninformed perspective about human sexuality pre-20th century.


----------



## Tigger

jaquen said:


> The chances are far greater that you'll just find a man who is much better at hiding it than the previous bloke.
> 
> 
> 
> Or we could just find one of the many women who have no problem whatsoever with porn usage, even one who enjoys it herself.
> 
> Problem solved.


Would you have an issue with your woman posting up nude photos for other men to "enjoy"?

If you found out your woman was an exhibitionist, would you have a problem with that?


----------



## jaquen

*LittleDeer* said:


> Everything, trying to scare women into thinking there couldn't be many men willing to give up porn in order to be with women.
> 
> I've never had a problem with it. So yes everything.


If there were so many men who were willing to give up porn in order to be with their women...

Where are they? Why is this such a huge, recurring problem in marriages? Where is this legion of men? Because, every single statistic tells us it's rare for a man to not watch porn. 

Yet you, LD, are giving hope to women that there is a cache of men out there for every porn-hating woman.

So where are they? And how did ALL the sexual studies manage to miss this secret stash of men?


----------



## *LittleDeer*

jaquen said:


> Porn was prolific. Just because it's more prolific now does not mean it was not prolific in the past.
> 
> You're using very poor logic, and continue to display a very ignorant, uninformed perspective about human sexuality pre-20th century.


Oh yes I'm the uninformed one, because I do not agree with you. 

It was not prolific at all. 

I see it now..

500 B.C
At night while the wives were asleep the average man snuck into the living room and masturbated over the family vase, depicting naked people and on the other side the cow in the feild

They did not have sex and he often could not get it up unless he was in the room with clay vase

She felt the clay vase depicted a young women with a surgically altered vagina, who was fakling her orgasms, and the sex scene was violent and disrespectful. 

Husband and wife fought over this often because she felt threatened by the clay vase and ended smashing it, hence the lack of vases from this era. Sad sad times.

:lol:


----------



## jaquen

Tigger said:


> Isn't that what you are doing portraying women as frigid, ant sexual weirdos because they have a problem with their husband wanking to porn?


Nope. You won't find that from me. You're projecting, AND running several posters together. 

My stance on porn now is as it always has been; I have no problem whatsoever with ANYBODY, male or female, being anti-porn. 

My point has always been that people who are, should seek out people who feel the same. And if their spouse was a coward, and lied to them about it? It's a bait and switch, and they have strong grounds to leave their marriage.

And I am very anti-mothering. You can't dictate what any man does with his body. The only person's behavior you can ever control is your own. So make the decisions that are right for YOU, even if they include making the painful decision of having to leave your marriage in order to hold on to your sense of morality, your individual values.

That has been my well stated stance on this porn topic from my first post about it here on TAM, until this very one right here.


----------



## jaquen

Tigger said:


> Would you have an issue with your woman posting up nude photos for other men to "enjoy"?
> 
> If you found out your woman was an exhibitionist, would you have a problem with that?


Sure would.

Your point?


----------



## jaquen

*LittleDeer* said:


> Oh yes I'm the uninformed one, because I do not agree with you.
> 
> It was not prolific at all.
> 
> I see it now..
> 
> 500 B.C
> At night while the wives were asleep the average man snuck into the living room and masturbated over the family vase, depicting naked people and on the other side the cow in the feild
> 
> They did not have sex and he often could not get it up unless he was in the room with clay vase
> 
> She felt the clay vase depicted a young women with a surgically altered vagina, who was fakling her orgasms, and the sex scene was violent and disrespectful.
> 
> Husband and wife fought over this often because she felt threatened by the clay vase and ended smashing it, hence the lack of vases from this era. Sad sad times.
> 
> :lol:


OK, that was hilarious imagery.

:rofl:


----------



## TiggyBlue

jaquen said:


> Sure would.
> 
> Your point?


you can't dictate what she does with her body  lol


----------



## jaquen

TiggyBlue said:


> you can't dictate what she does with her body  lol


Nope, sure can't.

Just like she couldn't dictate what I did with my feet, as I walked out the door.

We'd both have choices. Yay choice!


----------



## *LittleDeer*

jaquen said:


> If there were so many men who were willing to give up porn in order to be with their women...
> 
> Where are they? Why is this such a huge, recurring problem in marriages? Where is this legion of men? Because, every single statistic tells us it's rare for a man to not watch porn.
> 
> Yet you, LD, are giving hope to women that there is a cache of men out there for every porn-hating woman.
> 
> So where are they? And how did ALL the sexual studies manage to miss this secret stash of men?


Acatually not that rare. I think 87% watch some form of porn last year.

But yes I do think it's a growin g problem and causing a lot of problems ion marriages. Often women (rightly so) feel very uncomfortable with porn and it does replace intimacy for a growing number of men. 

Part of the problem is there are people making excuse after excuse, normalising this behaviour that hurts so many women and belittling them for feeling the way they do, and telling them to just get over it, because well everyone does it.

(almost) Everyone used to use slaves too. Doesn't make it right. It also doesn't mean that a reasonable man, when you explain to him, why you do not want a relationship that involves porn, will not make the effort to not watch porn. 

My SO used to watch porn, admittedly in his (previous) marriage he didn't watch (or hardly everwatched) anyway, but did when single, however is happy not to watch it, understands why I don't want it in OUR relationship, and seems pretty content just f%^&ing me. 


But that's just my truth. 

Then again I won't live my life afraid of having good boundaries, just in case there are no men that can possibly stop themselves from objectifying and commodifying women.

I refuse to live like that and would rather be single.

However I'm not single, and it's not an issue for me.


----------



## TiggyBlue

jaquen said:


> Nope, sure can't.
> 
> Just like she couldn't dictate what I did with my feet, as I walked out the door.
> 
> We'd both have choices. Yay choice!


:smthumbup:


----------



## Tigger

jaquen said:


> Nope. You won't find that from me. You're projecting, AND running several posters together.
> 
> My stance on porn now is as it always has been; I have no problem whatsoever with ANYBODY, male or female, being anti-porn.
> 
> My point has always been that people who are, should seek out people who feel the same. And if their spouse was a coward, and lied to them about it? It's a bait and switch, and they have strong grounds to leave their marriage.
> 
> And I am very anti-mothering. You can't dictate what any man does with his body. The only person's behavior you can ever control is your own. So make the decisions that are right for YOU, even if they include making the painful decision of having to leave your marriage in order to hold on to your sense of morality, your individual values.
> 
> That has been my well stated stance on this porn topic from my first post about it here on TAM, until this very one right here.


I don't think you know what the word projecting means.

If that is your stance then what is your point in arguing on this thread? What exactly are you trying to say?


----------



## Tigger

jaquen said:


> Nope, sure can't.
> 
> Just like she couldn't dictate what I did with my feet, as I walked out the door.
> 
> We'd both have choices. Yay choice!


Maybe that is what more women should do is vote with their feet.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Tigger said:


> Maybe that is what more women should do is vote with their feet.


That definitely should happen. :iagree:


----------



## jaquen

Tigger said:


> I don't think you know what the word projecting means.


Graduated from one of the best universities on planet Earth, with honors. I am well aware of what the concept of projection is, thanks. 



Tigger said:


> If that is your stance then what is your point in arguing on this thread? What exactly are you trying to say?


There is no "if", that is my stance. The only reason you have a problem with my stating it this deep into the thread is that it doesn't fit your assumptions about me, or anybody else who disagrees with you on this topic.

If you'd look past your obvious hurt, and the intense projecting you've been mired in for pages now (oops, there I go again, using big words I no understand), you'd see that those of us who are not anti-porn are not condoning willfully hurting women, ignoring how they feel, or standing up for stupid men who chose porn over their wives.


----------



## jaquen

Tigger said:


> Maybe that is what more women should do is vote with their feet.


Yes, a point I've driven home ad nauseum.


----------



## Tigger

jaquen said:


> Graduated from one of the best universities on planet Earth, with honors. I am well aware of what the concept of projection is, thanks.


Of course you did dear.


----------



## jaquen

Tigger said:


> Of course you did dear.


You can roll your eyes until they get stuck at the back of your head, and it won't change facts "dear".

:rofl:

Now would you like to perhaps act like a grown up, and get back to the debate? Or shall we take another spin on the kiddie rides, while you eye roll away?


----------



## Tigger

jaquen said:


> You can roll your eyes until they get stuck at the back of your head, and it won't change facts "dear".
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> Now would you like to perhaps act like a grown up, and get back to the debate? Or shall we take another spin on the kiddie rides, while you eye roll away?


Maybe we can play later. I have some work I need to get done.


----------



## Open up now let it all go

triggerhappy said:


> this is not against any particular man in here, but instead for women in general. Excuse my grammatical errors, English is my second language.
> 
> 
> I read some of the threads here in total and utter disbelief. I mean total shock!
> 
> I really don't even know where to begin....
> 
> 
> Porn is not anyone's God-given right. I see women making excuses for their husbands, saying they could watch porn only x times a week, and only view pictures, or "pre-recorded porn", they can't view live web cams, etc. :scratchhead:
> 
> What the hell is going on with our society? why are women afraid to put their foot down and give ultimatums? is it because they are really afraid of being left? is someone who chooses pron over your feelings really worth keeping and fighting for?
> 
> I read many threads where women come here pouring their hearts out about the hurt they feel over finding out their husband is watching porn, forget about being addicted to it. Obviously, the husband was aware how much it would hurt his partner before they even got married, I'm sure every couple discusses it before they make their life-long commitment, yet some male members here quickly jump to defend porn seem to overlook the fact that it's a betrayal because they are so selfishly defending their right to view it, without stopping for one second to think about the woman's feelings. They quickly turn it into a topic where the woman wants to have "control". What's so bad about wanting to have control in your marriage? the reason a lot of marriages fail is because people LOSE control over their marriages. You better believe I'm going to want to control certain aspects of our marriage, and guess what? there's nothing wrong with that! anyone who screams bloody murder over control is someone you should not trust to begin with. Anyone who cries over "MY privacy" is someone who is not ready and shouldn't be in a long-term committed relationship.
> 
> This is the part I don't ever get... if you knew your wife or gf doesn't like porn, and you know it hurts her why are you in a relationship or marriage with her to begin with? do you realizing you're fraudulently leading this person on to believe that you are not the person who she thought she married, or moved in with? I see many men who knowingly enter a relationship aware their wife or gf doesn't want to be with someone who views porn, and when they get caught they try to defend it like they're entitled to view it, like it's scientifically their God-given right (like the air they breath) to have access to it. If they only knew how sick this makes them look, how extremely pathetic they are.
> 
> 
> Oh I know I'm going to get blasted for this, and I don't care! if you have a spouse who is hurt by porn and you continue to watch it, or sneak watching it behind their back, guess what? you have a problem! don't try turning it around by telling them to accept it, or to relax it's just sex, or just porn, because it's not. Admit to yourself, without being so defensive that it breaks up marriages, for whatever reason, it breaks them up, so why not just give it up?! if you can't then you have an addiction. Anything you cannot give up IS AN ADDICTION!
> 
> I really don't care what men have to say to me because I'm so mad that women are toptoeing around the topic, trying not to upset the pro-porn crusaders for fear of being viewed as the one with the problem. Isn't that crazy, though? women are being berated for not allowing their husbands to have full access to porn at home, in the office, the car, anywhere! does that seem crazy to you? because it is!!
> 
> Please ladies, stand up for yourselves, don't accept this because you don't have to. What are you so afraid of losing? a guy who puts his desire for porn before your feelings of hurt?
> 
> This has gotten to the point of pure ridiculousness, and I can't believe women have become literally afraid to have a voice in this matter. If you're not ok with porn, throw the husband or bf out, or move out! let them jerkoff in their mothers basement to porn and video games all they want. Let them! let them be all alone in the world so they could feel like the losers they are. Let them!!!:scratchhead:


Since you aren't going to listen either way I won't bother constructing a valid response. I'll keep it to: "What a load of one-sided claptrap".


----------



## Thundarr

*LittleDeer* said:


> People saying my wife/husband better not try and tell me what I cannot watch etc, well there are lots of things I'm not Ok with my SO doing, watching, and if he does they are deal breakers and boundaries I have set for me. That whole thing is the same justification men and women use who are cheating/ partying with their friends all the time and other behaviours that are generally relationship breakers. It's used as a justification to keep doing whatever you feel with no regard for your SO.


It is a personal boundary. Boundaries have to be weighted and negotiated at which point compatibility becomes clear. Expectations and needs are different for everyone as are deal breakers and near deal breakers. It's clear if a man won't have sex with his wife because he spanks to porn then he's not meeting a need for his wife. It's equally clear if a wife isn't having or wanting sex with her husband then she's not meeting his need so why would he feel obligated to care about her dislike of porn.

In cases where the wife's meeting (or trying to meet) his needs sexually and otherwise and she doesn't want him to watch porn; he really needs to employ a little self control otherwise she'll become resentful and hurt and quit meeting those needs and porn will be all he has.


----------



## Thundarr

jaquen said:


> If there were so many men who were willing to give up porn in order to be with their women...
> 
> Where are they? Why is this such a huge, recurring problem in marriages? Where is this legion of men? Because, every single statistic tells us it's rare for a man to not watch porn.


I don't need porn, I just like it. If my wife had a problem with it then I wouldn't watch it ever. But she does her part being a good partner so I owe her that. I saw a couple of posts from another guy pages back that I suspect is the same. And there are several women on this thread currently married to men who either don't watch it or are successful at hiding it.


----------



## Cosmos

Thundarr said:


> I don't need porn, I just like it. If my wife had a problem with it then I wouldn't watch it ever. But she does her part. I saw a couple of posts from another guy pages back that I suspect is the same. And there are several women on this thread currently married to men who either don't watch it or are successful at hiding it.


:iagree:

Porn isn't an issue in my relationship because neither my partner nor I are interested in it. Before he met me, my partner was a semi-professional glamour / erotica photographer and was completely open with me about it. When we became an item, he changed direction without any input from me, so I have no reason to believe he would be dishonest with me about porn. It's simply a non-issue.

I believe most men have probably watched porn at some stage in their lives, but I don't believe that most married men watch porn.


----------



## Open up now let it all go

The most important reason I'm posting on this board is because of my partner and my issues with pornography in our relationship. But instead of scrutinizing, fighting, arguing and playing the paranoid parrot checking my browser history my girlfriend actually tried to see things from my point of view. And visa versa - I don't really understand her stance on porn but I empathize with her and try accomodate as much as I can. We do not really have a compromise about the issue but we both steer clear from pushing our point of view onto the other. I'm not forced to make promises of never watch porn again and I do not tell her to 'deal with it'.

I tell you if she ever sounded anything like the posts in this thread, I would've never feel motivated to deal with my porn habit at all. Life is too short to get disrespected and crucified over something as silly as porn. I fully understand that the same applies for guys who tell their partner to hump sand while they rub it out to XXX material.

I won't deny that I like porn a lot and the concept of giving it up frustrates me. Take the easy way out and call me an addict, whatever. I bet everyone has their own things in life which aren't really necessary yet very appealing.

- Guilty of playing a computer game while I had to study -> Game addiction!
- Guilty of eating take-out while I really had to consume something healthier -> Food addiction!
- I grow weary if we don't have sex on a regular basis. I must be a sex addict! 
- etc.

Just because someone doesn't like ditching porn or whatever else they don't like doesn't mean they're addicted directly. Stop using that ****ing correlation every time to justify pushing your own perspective on everyone else. It's obvious that porn addiction does exist but just because it does doesn't give you the right to label every man who doesn't agree with whatever their partner dictates them to be as a porn addict.


----------



## Maricha75

Thundarr said:


> I don't need porn, I just like it. If my wife had a problem with it then I wouldn't watch it ever. But she does her part. I saw a couple of posts from another guy pages back that I suspect is the same. And there are several women on this thread currently married to men who either don't watch it or are successful at hiding it.


Ding! Ding! Ding!

This exactly. Look, I am, myself, anti-porn. I'm not afraid to say it. I've said it many times. But I also don't believe it is fair, or even right, to try to dictate what is right in someone else's marriage. There are couples who are BOTH ok with it. I would never even consider telling them "you are wrong for watching porn!" Those men are not my husband. I don't "tell" him what to do, either. He knows my boundaries, I know his. It just happens, fortunately, that our boundaries coincide on this. And the thing is, if we didn't agree, we wouldn't have gotten married. It's just that simple.

Yes, I agree that these things should be discussed before marriage. But, in the words of House "everybody lies." People lie about porn use early on. Often, the men say "I don't watch it" or "I only watch it on rare occasions" because they are afraid of scaring off a woman they like. The problem is that they are actually mismatched in their views. Each would be better off with a better match, but the man hides his usage because SHE is the one he wants to be with. He lies to her. Is it right? Absolutely not. But it happens a lot. Why? I think because many men have been taught to hide it, or minimize it because 'NO WOMAN LIKES PORN!"...when in reality, there ARE women who like it.

Yes, I am anti-porn. Jaquen is pro-porn. The difference between my stance and his stance vs other anti and pro porn people? I don't tell him that he needs to get rid of porn and he doesn't tell me that I need to "allow" my husband to use it because "all men [do this]". Why? Because I know his wife doesn't mind the porn usage. And, from what he has posted about his relationship with his wife, if there EVER was a problem with porn, they would actually DISCUSS the issue. I am relatively certain that if there was a VALID reason for her not wanting him to watch it, he would acquiesce. I have no proof of this, of course, but this is just my observation based on his posts. They have a very open relationship. And if one had a problem with what the other was doing, they would work on resolving it. 

On the flip side, Jaquen doesn't tell me I am wrong for not "allowing" porn into my marriage. Why? Because he knows EACH RELATIONSHIP IS DIFFERENT. He knows that my husband and I agree on this subject. 

Now, the one thing on this subject that Jaquen and I agree on is that if porn is cutting into your relationship, then it is a big problem. I don't think porn, itself, is always the problem, but a symptom of it. That doesn't mean it is ALWAYS that way, either. Sometimes, there truly IS an addiction to it, and I think that shouldn't be discounted either.

Sorry for rambling. Not sure if I got my point across. Basically, if it works in your marriage, more power to you. If it doesn't, that's ok too. But I don't think it's right to push MY views on anyone else, nor is it right for anyone else to push THEIR views on me. I know what works in my marriage. I know my boundaries. That's all that matters.

BTW, Jaquen... sorry for using you as an example


----------



## jaquen

Thundarr said:


> I don't need porn, I just like it. If my wife had a problem with it then I wouldn't watch it ever. But she does her part being a good partner so I owe her that. I saw a couple of posts from another guy pages back that I suspect is the same. And there are several women on this thread currently married to men who either don't watch it or are successful at hiding it.


Of course there are expections, a point I've always noted. Thankfully there are TAMers here to represent those exceptions.

But LD is suggesting that women who do not suffer porn watchers can just slip out of one relationship and find a man who *never* watches.

Are we to believe that the millions of women who have problems with porn have a wide pool of men who *never *watch porn at their disposal?


----------



## jaquen

Cosmos said:


> but I don't believe that most married men watch porn.


But every statistic available is extremely contrary to this notion.

So for women who need to believe this, that most married men don't watch porn, the best bet might just be to do what Cletus suggested, care of Dan Savage: 

*"To make it work, the guy pretends he doesn't use porn, and his spouse pretends to believe him."
*
Is that truly the best compromise available for most people? Because if women do need to believe that most married men do not watch, and most married men are watching, regardless of how their wives work, willful ignorance seems to be a viable out, if not a downright common one.

That's a little depressing to even have to type.


----------



## Jamison

I used to watch my share of porn in my life, especially when I was younger. I no longer do, I have no need to do so. There are people in this world who do not watch it, I know its hard to believe and hard for people to swallow but there are people who do not need it, or want it.


----------



## Open up now let it all go

Jamison said:


> I used to watch my share of porn in my life, especially when I was younger. I no longer do, I have no need to do so. There are people in this world who do not watch it, I know its hard to believe and hard for people to swallow but there are people who do not need it, or want it.


Yes we know, the discussion is now of how large that fraction actually is compared to the people that desire and/or need a partner that's porn-free. I think a lot of us are convinced that the ratio's are hugely disproportionate.

Btw, Jaquen your posts are like crack, no wait I mean porn to me. I get aggravated reading all this polarizing debate, stereotypes, strawmen, playing on the men, fallacies from both sides and then I read your stuff and it's like a nirvana. Cudo's for the great posts (and not just because they're pro-porn).


----------



## Jamison

Open up now let it all go said:


> Yes we know, the


I am glad you know, carry on.


----------



## mildlyperplexed

And people here call me childish o0


----------



## Cletus

To the "I would walk out on him..." crowd:

Am I a bad husband?

Does my occasional porn use make me fat, bald, lazy, and undesirable by definition? Do I get credit for staying married for nearly three decades to a good woman who had the bad luck to be born a Puritan, letting her get her way in the bedroom for almost all of that time, and for allowing her control our sex life to keep the peace? 

Or for going to work for the family for 20 years while she was a stay at home mother? For personally, with my own sweat, building the addition onto our house that gave us more room to grow, giving up all of my free nights and weekends for nearly two years? For doing all of the car repair and most of the physical labor around the house, plus my fair share of the domestic duties?

Do I get any credit for trying to be a better father than my own to my children, for coaching their soccer teams, going to all of their school events, and staying connected with them even after they left the nest?

Because the vibe I'm getting from several of the posters on this topic is that none of this counts if I ever view pornography if my wife doesn't like it. That I have no free agency in filling the cracks in my sex life. That in addition to the complete veto power she possesses in the bedroom as to what we will do and how often we will do it, I have to give her control over what I do on my own time, to no detriment to our love life. 

If having a man view porn is a walkaway issue for you, then this is my walk away issue. I DO have the right to relieve my sexual tension as I see fit within the boundaries of staying faithful and monogamous in my relationship. I have done my part of the compromise. 

I actually wish I felt strongly about porn itself. I don't. Most of it is to my tastes uninteresting, objectifying, vaguely unsettling, and tasteless. But some of it isn't. YMMV. 

But I won't just sit idly by and be told that I, and the large numbers of men who use it responsibly in their relationships are bad people for it. That's a gross oversimplification, a strawman.

The bald part I can't help, but thanks for reminding me how much more attractive it makes me to my wife.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Cletus said:


> If having a man view porn is a walkaway issue for you, then this is my walk away issue. I DO have the right to relieve my sexual tension as I see fit within the boundaries of staying faithful and monogamous in my relationship. I have done my part of the compromise.


If someone is with a partner who doesn't like porn they have every right to walk away if that is something they don't accept.
Boundaries are different for everyone, no ones boundaries should be belittled.


----------



## richie33

You have posters that regardless of being in a sexless marriage once they hear you watched porn your a porn addict and bad husband.
Paint with a very large brush.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alphabravo

Well said Cletus.

Fact is your wife's attitude in the bedroom is a form of sexual abuse. You sir, have been sexually abused for 3 decades. 

And not only has this affected your attitude towards sex, it has caused you to question your own validity and find courage outside of your marriage while making 100% sure that you still tow the line of an honest, law abiding, determined, productive and supportive husband.

If you are able to do both and do so productively, then what works should not be broken. But here is another thought:

When my father died we donated his desktop computer to the church. Then we got a call from the person loading in new software if we were aware of all the files and internet history saved in Firefox. This kind of haunts me to no end, knowing that in his last days of life at 73 there he was in the basement being ignored by his wife. 

I always wonder for how long were his sexual needs ignored and for how long had he suffered inside?


----------



## triggerhappy

mildlyperplexed said:


> o0 signifies a raised eyebrow too
> 
> I'm squarely on the pro-porn side and even if I wasn't the anti-porn women havnt put up any kind of constructive argument. They flip flop between insulting, generalizing and then attempting to retake the moral high ground. Talk about perpetuating negative stereotypes.


This is the kind of dismissiveness I'm talking about. Flip flopping insults? what do you call someone who hurts you and pathetically chooses porn over flesh and blood. Why aren't we allowed to call a spade a spade. 

Also, why do we have to write a dissertation or thesis as to why we don't accept porn in our relationship and turn it into to you like a presentation?

Isn't the fact that someone tells you it hurts them and not to continue doing it enough? It's not unreasonable by any stretch of the imagination. People are telling you eight billion ways why it hurts them, *but you don't want to hear it!
*

Sometimes I feel like I'm at the madhatters tea party. :scratchhead:


----------



## Jamison

triggerhappy said:


> This is the kind of dismissiveness I'm talking about. Flip flopping insults? what do you call someone who hurts you and pathetically chooses porn over flesh and blood. Why aren't we allowed to call a spade a spade.
> 
> Also, why do we have to write a dissertation or thesis as to why we don't accept porn in our relationship and turn it into to you like a presentation?
> 
> Isn't the fact that someone tells you it hurts them and not to continue doing it enough? It's not unreasonable by any stretch of the imagination. People are telling you eight billion ways why it hurts them, *but you don't want to hear it!
> *
> 
> Sometimes I feel like I'm at the madhatters tea party. :scratchhead:


:iagree:


----------



## triggerhappy

jaquen said:


> If you truly believe porn is the root issue, than answer me this:
> 
> What exactly do you imagine would happen if all the pornographic material in the world just disappeared?



People addicted to it would have to get used to it, because they are not little children, even children can adjust to having a toy taken away, and eventually they will adjust... life will go on.

I'm sure the person with the problem would focus more on the things they need to focus on. If they seek other harmful ways to replace porn, then they have a serious issues, and shouldn't be in a relationship at all. But I truly believe the world would be a better place, but God forbid! seriously considering such a thing would be like taking away the very air people breath.


----------



## Cletus

triggerhappy said:


> Isn't the fact that someone tells you it hurts them and not to continue doing it enough? It's not unreasonable by any stretch of the imagination. People are telling you eight billion ways why it hurts them, *but you don't want to hear it!
> *
> 
> Sometimes I feel like I'm at the madhatters tea party. :scratchhead:


It hurts me that my wife won't learn how to set her rear view mirrors on the car correctly.

No, I'm not joking. I've tried to show her how. I've pointed to web posts explaining the process. I've explained how it should be done to maximize your visibility. She won't budge. Claims she's been driving since before we got married, likes her system, and isn't about to consider an alternative.

But I'm not going to leave her over it, even though there are actual life and death consequences at risk here, including the time a couple of months ago that I saved us from an accident on the freeway from the passenger seat when she came inches from driving someone off the road in her blind spot.

Short of infidelity or abuse, the "deal breakers" in relationships are what we make them. You're welcome to have this be one of yours, but simply because your spouse doesn't like it? That can be the start of a very long and very dogmatic list. We can start with reading "50 Shades" and move on from there.


----------



## triggerhappy

jaquen said:


> Projecting much? So who, exactly, said that men who watch porn (which is the VAST majority) are " middle aged, balding, overweight, bad in bed, porn addicts"?
> 
> Some of you are so bitter, and so angry, that you need to believe every single stereotype imaginable in order to make your stance seem superior, and your "enemy" as bad off as he possibly can.
> 
> Now how would it sound if we started reversing that stereotype? And claiming that all anti-porn women were fat, aging, frumpy, frigid eyesores who are horrendous in bed, and not worth the time it takes to pop a quick one off to a hot porn star?
> 
> How would you women, who are freely using these disgusting adjectives to attack men who enjoy porn, feel if we started turning the tables, and describing you in the ways you describe us in this thread?


There you go with the name-calling. It's such hypocrisy. You just accused women of doing that. Why in your mind women who don't accept porn in their relationships are automatically "bitter and angry"? you automatically dismiss their feelings. Why do you do that?


And when you say us? what do you mean by that? do you mean to tell me that you knowingly go against your wives wishes and use porn anyway, although you know it hurts her? because if that's not how your relationship is, then i don't know why you're identifying with the kind of person we're talking about. One who selfishly chooses porn over a partners feelings.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Cletus said:


> It hurts me that my wife won't learn how to set her rear view mirrors on the car correctly.
> 
> No, I'm not joking. I've tried to show her how. I've pointed to web posts explaining the process. I've explained how it should be done to maximize your visibility. She won't budge. Claims she's been driving since before we got married, likes her system, and isn't about to consider an alternative.
> 
> But I'm not going to leave her over it, even though there are actual life and death consequences at risk here, including the time a couple of months ago that I saved us from an accident on the freeway from the passenger seat when she came inches from driving someone off the road in her blind spot.


Cletus,
You just made me laugh out loud!

But I can relate, and I agree, your juxtaposition makes perfect sense.


----------



## ocotillo

*LittleDeer* said:


> It was not prolific at all.
> 
> I see it now..
> 
> 500 B.C
> At night while the wives were asleep the average man snuck into the living room and masturbated over the family vase, depicting naked people and on the other side the cow in the feild
> 
> They did not have sex and he often could not get it up unless he was in the room with clay vase
> 
> She felt the clay vase depicted a young women with a surgically altered vagina, who was fakling her orgasms, and the sex scene was violent and disrespectful.
> 
> Husband and wife fought over this often because she felt threatened by the clay vase and ended smashing it, hence the lack of vases from this era. Sad sad times.


Funny stuff  

I don't know if this helps or hurts the discussion, but pornography in the ancient world was primarily the written word. In Greek mythology, the goddess Erato was the Muse of erotic poetry.


----------



## Cletus

TiggyBlue said:


> If someone is with a partner who doesn't like porn they have every right to walk away if that is something they don't accept.
> Boundaries are different for everyone, no ones boundaries should be belittled.


True enough.

If this is your deal breaker, then so be it. I'd just be careful here, because there are a large number of otherwise kind, decent, caring men and women out there who you might be rejecting. 

Everyone has the right to set the boundaries in their relationships, and everyone has the obligation to review those boundaries once in a while to see if they still comport with their reality.


----------



## triggerhappy

jaquen said:


> If there were so many men who were willing to give up porn in order to be with their women...
> 
> Where are they? Why is this such a huge, recurring problem in marriages? Where is this legion of men? Because, every single statistic tells us it's rare for a man to not watch porn.
> 
> Yet you, LD, are giving hope to women that there is a cache of men out there for every porn-hating woman.
> 
> So where are they? And how did ALL the sexual studies manage to miss this secret stash of men?


I freaking *LOVE* how you guys hold on to this "study" with a ninja death-grip, but would never in a million years consider the COUNTLESS studies that have *PROVEN* porn to be harmful to relationships. It's selective "study" research.


----------



## Cosmos

jaquen said:


> So for women who need to believe this, that most married men don't watch porn, the best bet might just be to do what Cletus suggested, care of Dan Savage:
> 
> *"To make it work, the guy pretends he doesn't use porn, and his spouse pretends to believe him."
> *
> Is that truly the best compromise available for most people? Because if women do need to believe that most married men do not watch, and most married men are watching, regardless of how their wives work, willful ignorance seems to be a viable out, if not a downright common one.
> 
> That's a little depressing to even have to type.



It isn't that I "need" to believe that my partner doesn't watch porn, I know he doesn't. He's a man of great honesty, integrity and strength of character, and there's no way he's going to demean himself by lying to me about wanking off to porn. If he did it, I have absolutely no doubt that he'd tell me - and the consequences be damned. For him, lying would be a deal breaker.

I don't know why it's so hard to believe that some people enjoy a good healthy, vigorous sex life without the addition of porn.:scratchhead:


----------



## Cletus

Cosmos said:


> It isn't that I "need" to believe that my partner doesn't watch porn, I know he doesn't. He's a man of great honesty, integrity and strength of character, and there's no way he's going to demean himself by lying to me about wanking off to porn. If he did it, I have absolutely no doubt that he'd tell me - and the consequences be damned. For him, lying would be a deal breaker.
> 
> I don't know why it's so hard to believe that some people enjoy a good healthy, vigorous sex life without the addition of porn.:scratchhead:


It's not - no harder than it is to believe that there are plenty of people who enjoy a healthy, vigorous sex life with it. Statistically speaking, probably more. 

The don't ask - don't tell policy isn't about lying. It's about actually not asking, or snooping, or pushing the issue on the one side, and being discrete on the other. 

It is compromising.


----------



## triggerhappy

alphabravo said:


> Well said Cletus.
> 
> Fact is your wife's attitude in the bedroom is a form of sexual abuse. You sir, have been sexually abused for 3 decades.


:rofl::rofl::rofl: I'm sorry....I don't mean to... :rofl::rofl:


----------



## Maricha75

triggerhappy said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl: I'm sorry....I don't mean to... :rofl::rofl:


I'm sorry. You find the fact that Cletus' wife will only allow him to have sex with her at certain times of the month (or is it year/), in certain positions, etc... to NOT be sexual abuse? AND you find it FUNNY? Really??


----------



## triggerhappy

ocotillo said:


> Funny stuff
> 
> I don't know if this helps or hurts the discussion, but pornography in the ancient world was primarily the written word. In Greek mythology, the goddess Erato was the Muse of erotic poetry.


Not sure if this will help or harm the discussion but Greek Gods and Goddesses were myths.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Cletus said:


> True enough.
> 
> If this is your deal breaker, then so be it. I'd just be careful here, because there are a large number of otherwise kind, decent, caring men and women out there who you might be rejecting.
> 
> Everyone has the right to set the boundaries in their relationships, and everyone has the obligation to review those boundaries once in a while to see if they still comport with their reality.


It's not mine I watch porn myself, but some see porn as being very disrespectful/cheating and some people lose massive attraction for their partner when finding out they watch porn.

If it was that 99.9% percent of women/men cheat would it hurt any less if my partner did it because it was what everyone else did, no it wouldn't, should I 'get over it' because many others do the same thing again no.
Porn for some is a act of massive disrespect/ betrayal/ massive turn off.
Boundaries/betrayal/ respect is such a big spectrum that goes from porn right to open marriage, no one can tell someone what limit should be acceptable for them.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Cletus said:


> It's not - no harder than it is to believe that there are plenty of people who enjoy a healthy, vigorous sex life with it. Statistically speaking, probably more.
> 
> The don't ask - don't tell policy isn't about lying. It's about actually not asking, or snooping, or pushing the issue on the one side, and being discrete on the other.
> 
> It is compromising.


The same could be said for cheating or strip clubs.


----------



## Cletus

Maricha75 said:


> I'm sorry. You find the fact that Cletus' wife will only allow him to have sex with her at certain times of the month (or is it year/), in certain positions, etc... to NOT be sexual abuse? AND you find it FUNNY? Really??


Well, I am the bully afterall.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cletus

TiggyBlue said:


> The same could be said for cheating or strip clubs.


Porn use is not infidelity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Caribbean Man

*LittleDeer* said:


> Oh yes I'm the uninformed one, because I do not agree with you.
> 
> It was not prolific at all.
> 
> I see it now..
> 
> 500 B.C
> At night while the wives were asleep the average man snuck into the living room and masturbated over the family vase, depicting naked people and on the other side the cow in the feild
> 
> They did not have sex and he often could not get it up unless he was in the room with clay vase
> 
> She felt the clay vase depicted a young women with a surgically altered vagina, who was fakling her orgasms, and the sex scene was violent and disrespectful.
> 
> Husband and wife fought over this often because she felt threatened by the clay vase and ended smashing it, hence the lack of vases from this era. Sad sad times.
> 
> :lol:


Little deer,

I gave you a " like " because you just made me laugh.

Actually though, Jacquen is right. Porn was prolific back then. Pornographia [πορνογραφία ] is actually an ancient Greek word meaning extreme public sexual acts between two or more people.

The difference back then was that there were no electronic medium so the artistic reliefs we now see on ancient pottery and vases were actually depictions of live sex shows as shown on this 1000+ year old Khajuraho temple erotic stone carvings. Those who were so inclined, simply participated in them. They were part of their life and religious festivals / beliefs.

All ancient civilizations had the issue to deal with. The streets of Pompeii were littered with brothels and wh*re houses. They were so advanced that they even had special brothels for men seeking boys, men seeking women and those who wanted group sex.
Erotic images were always there.People always participated , either by viewing the live shows or in the act.

There is really nothing new under the sun.....


----------



## Open up now let it all go

Cletus said:


> Porn use is not infidelity.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That depends on the established boundaries... and all to often they are ill-defined. Especially when it comes to pornography.


----------



## damiana879

Honestly, I have to ring in on this....

I honestly think most women that have a problem with porn have a GRAVE misunderstanding of it. They see it as "If my husband is willing to watch porn, he'll end up going to a stripper club, then he'll end up cheating and there goes our marriage..."

First of all, that's not true most of the time. There are men, just like there are women that take life's simple pleasures to the extreme, then it becomes an addiction, it becomes a fantasy that they feel they have to "play out", and if their wives aren't willing to be participants, often they may try to find a willing participant.

Secondly, men especially are VERY visual creatures. BELIEVE me, if they're not looking at porn, they're imagining the girl they saw at the mall the other day naked, they are imagining that the picture of Rhianna on the cover of that magazine is a sex icon that they would LOVE to see make some kind of porn. Most men, even when walking with their wife and kids, will take notice of another woman walking around SOMEWHERE!! It's what men do, and there is NO shame in that. It is a cold hard truth that men fantasize about other women, porn or no porn...and that in itself is not entirely a bad thing if men know how to use that constructively. There are men out there that can get the visual pleasure, then when it's time for the wife in the bedroom, they may have a glimpse or two in their mind that they're having sex with someone else. It's not real, it's a porn in their minds, but the wife shouldn't mind that, he's WITH her physically, instead of being out there somewhere else...

My honest opinion is that a lot (NOT ALL) of women that have issues with porn, have those issues because they have insecurities, either with the marriage, or with themselves, or both. Or they were raised VERY religious and all porn is the devil...but so is Harry Potter and Twilight (even though the author of Twilight is a Mormon woman). 

My advice to women like that is "Your husband married you for you, not for anything else..." so it may be expanding and broadening your mind a bit, but put some faith in him unless you have reason not to. And truth be told, he would probably be more appreciative if his wife did something just out of this world and make the offer to "do the deed" while having the porn on TV and letting him face it. More than likely, the wife would get the time of her life that night instead of disappointment. 

Now if it's a problem that he PREFERS porn to his wife, that's a TOTALLY different issue. If he's turning her away from bed because he wants his porn, that's a problem. I don't condone that at all, I think the couple should be able to both enjoy each other, with or without porn. 

Although I understand why some women feel this way, I do think it's an unfounded fear a lot of times...men are very visual creatures, and they want to look at the menu but not order anything but their wife for the dessert. If a man is that way, porn or not, I'd grab hold and not let go.


----------



## Maricha75

Cletus said:


> Porn use is not infidelity.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But Tiggy also put strip clubs in her post. Some don't see those as infidelity. Some do. I am one who does... for my marriage, at least.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Cletus said:


> Porn use is not infidelity.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is for some, it's not for me or for you but for some it is.
For people who have a open marriage sex with others isn't infidelity, does that mean it's not infinitely to your marriage?


----------



## ocotillo

triggerhappy said:


> Not sure if this will help or harm the discussion by Greek Gods and Goddesses were myths.


Well yes, but the erotic poetry and other written composition was real. The word 'pornography' (πορνογραφος) itself comes to us from Ancient Greek and is simply a compound word formed by fusing the feminine noun, πορνή (Prostitute) with the infinitive, γραφειν. (To write) The invention of the camera is a fairly recent development relatively speaking


----------



## triggerhappy

ocotillo said:


> Well yes, but the erotic poetry and other written composition was real. The word 'pornography' (πορνογραφος) itself comes to us from Ancient Greek and is simply a compound word formed by fusing the feminine noun, πορνή (Prostitute) with the infinitive, γραφειν. (To write) The invention of the camera is a fairly recent development relatively speaking



Fair enough...the poems are real, who wrote them though? man or woman? Certainly not "goddess" Erato.


----------



## ocotillo

triggerhappy said:


> Fair enough...the poems are real, who wrote them though? man or woman? Certainly not "goddess" Erato.


This stuff was written by both genders. The only point in mentioning Erato is that when the Greeks and Romans had a god or goddess that they believed presided over this or that, the thing in question was pretty much a fixture in their society.


----------



## Cletus

TiggyBlue said:


> It is for some, it's not for me or for you but for some it is.
> For people who have a open marriage sex with others isn't infidelity, does that mean it's not infinitely to your marriage?


Ok, I concede the point. I was going by the vernacular definition of the word which for most requires an active relationship with another person to qualify as infidelity. If we include breach of trust in the word, then of course it can qualify.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Davelli0331

I don't have a problem with women (or men, for that matter) who find porn distasteful or crude and don't want it in their marriages. That's a perfectly rational boundary, and how those couples work through that is up to them.

What I do have a problem with is women who have obviously experienced some kind of hurt in their past and thus decide that they are the moral authority on the matter, that porn is bad, that men who watch it have something wrong with them, and that any woman who would stay with such a man should give him an ultimatum.

For me, that sort of thing isn't even about porn, it's about someone feeling they can dictate morality to others based on their internal belief system. I feel the exact same way about gay marriage and abortion.


----------



## triggerhappy

But what does that prove, really? 

Burglary, prostitution, infidelity, and even murder, and many other things existed long before civilization, but doesn't make it ok for us to accept as a civilized society for today's day and age. I wonder why "porn has been around the beginning of time" topic is always brought up in this discussion? It's neither here nor there that it existed eons ago. It's about the harm such actions cause in otherwise healthy relationships today. Do you know for a fact that women, wives and daughters weren't deeply hurt by it BC? no one ever addresses that? if anything, remember Zeus' wife, Juno, she was uber jealous, she never stood for any nonsense like that. 

I mean, if this and other countless threads, many of which have had to be locked or deleted due to heated discussions doesn't prove how harmful porn is to a persons feelings, self-esteem, and marriage, then I don't know what other proof to provide.

It's really like pro-porners just absolutely refuse to see the harm it causes in some relationships because they want to guard it with their life, because they are afraid of having to really truly face the music. It's so psychologically and emotionally lazy. 


There's a vastly huge difference between marrying someone you knew was a "puritan" before-hand, and someone who told you didn't use porn at all.

It's really not my intention to disrespect anyone. I want to remember myself, and keep focused on the important points of the discussion so partners who are addicted to porn can learn from it and understand why it's not cool to have entitlement over it.


----------



## triggerhappy

Davelli0331 said:


> What I do have a problem with is women who have obviously experienced some kind of hurt in their past and thus decide that they are the moral authority on the matter, that porn is bad, that men who watch it have something wrong with them, and that any woman who would stay with such a man should give him an ultimatum.


Why do you call it a "moral authority"? 

I don't think anyone here is saying that ALL people who watch porn are bad. It has been made clear time and time again, that if 2 people consent to it, then fine, go for it. It's only when one person CHOOSES it over the other persons feelings that it becomes an issue.

And why is it not ok to give a person an ultimatum, when they are being hurt? everyone in a harmful relationship of any sort gives the other ultimatums at one point or the other, whether it be about alcohol, gambling, going out too much with friends all week. It's how you determine whether the relationship is worth saving or not. 


No offense and I don't mean any disrespect at all, but you know what it sounds like when people who are the wrong-doers defend their "rights" or "privacy" or "individuality", they sound like spoiled little children who don't want to be looked at while they're misbehaving. It sounds so childish.


----------



## Davelli0331

triggerhappy said:


> I mean, if this and other countless threads, many of which have had to be locked or deleted due to heated discussions doesn't prove how harmful porn is to a persons feelings, self-esteem, and marriage, then I don't know what other proof to provide.


Completely ignoring, of course, the other posts by men and women who talk about porn enhancing their sex lives.



triggerhappy said:


> It's really like pro-porners just absolutely refuse to see the harm it causes in some relationships because they want to guard it with their life, because they are afraid of having to really truly face the music. It's so psychologically and emotionally lazy.


That is you making a judgment call, and a pretty bitter and severe one at that. No one here has said that porn can't cause problems. You are projecting your past bad experiences pretty hard on everyone else here, and until you can own that, I can't take you seriously.


----------



## triggerhappy

Pro-porners word of the day:


*Projecting*

Let's all say it together... _Pro-jec-ting_.



> You are projecting your past bad experiences pretty hard on everyone else here, and until you can own that, I can't take you seriously.


Because we are not discussing MY past. You want to compare apples with oranges, and i won't do that.




> Completely ignoring, of course, the other posts by men and women who talk about porn enhancing their sex lives.


We are not talking about people who enjoy it. Again, for the gazillionth time, it's about people who won't give it up when it harms their partner.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

triggerhappy said:


> It's really like pro-porners just absolutely refuse to see the harm it causes in some relationships because they want to guard it with their life, because they are afraid of having to really truly face the music. It's so psychologically and emotionally lazy.


You know what? Metal music caused some teenagers and young adults to commit suicide(ie: The Judas Priest incident). Computer games are related to the mass shootings. There were kids in my country who jumped off their balconies thinking they were Pokemon. SO? Every frigging thing in life can become a source of harm, if the person receiving benefit from these things have mental problems.

Just because I think the actresses and the sex in porn are hot and turning on, doesn't mean I'm going to be disregarding the woman I'm in an intimate relationship. Just like when I watch a sad movie and cry or when I watch a comedy and laugh doesn't mean I'm not letting my partner satisfy my emotional needs.


----------



## Davelli0331

triggerhappy said:


> Why do you call it a "moral authority"?


Go back and re-read your posts, especially the OP.



triggerhappy said:


> I don't think anyone here is saying that ALL people who watch porn are bad. It has been made clear time and time again, that if 2 people consent to it, then fine, go for it. It's only when one person CHOOSES it over the other persons feelings that it becomes an issue.


The almost militant call to arms that you're espousing in all of your posts makes it very difficult for me to believe that you truly have a "live and let live" mentality on this.



triggerhappy said:


> And why is it not ok to give a person an ultimatum, when they are being hurt? everyone in a harmful relationship of any sort gives the other ultimatums at one point or the other, whether it be about alcohol, gambling, going out too much with friends all week. It's how you determine whether the relationship is worth saving or not.


I never said ultimatums were bad. They are, as you very astutely point out, sometimes necessary. I've had to give them myself during my marriage, and they're not fun.



triggerhappy said:


> No offense and I don't mean any disrespect at all, but you know what it sounds like when people who are the wrong-doers defend their "rights" or "privacy" or "individuality", they sound like spoiled little children who don't want to be looked at while they're misbehaving. It sounds so childish.


I imagine this quote very much epitomizes how you view the world. First, you automatically call anyone that disagrees with you as "wrong-doers". If that's not you acting as a self-righteous moral authority, then I don't know what is. 

Then, while insulting me but couching it with "no offense", you claim that anyone who disagrees with you (the so-called "wrong-doers") who defends their rights, privacy, or individuality are spoiled children. Funny, because I'm fairly certain those are my protected rights as an American.

All I can say is that your ideas about morality and the role they play in a marriage (and very likely society at large) are very different than mine. But at least I can convey my thoughts without personally insulting you.


----------



## triggerhappy

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> You know what? Metal music caused some teenagers and young adults to commit suicide(ie: The Judas Priest incident). Computer games are related to the mass shootings. There were kids in my country who jumped off their balconies thinking they were Pokemon. SO? Every frigging thing in life can become a source of harm, if the person receiving benefit from these things have mental problems.



But these issues have NOTHING to do with relationships and marriages. Again, apples and oranges..


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

triggerhappy said:


> Why do you call it a "moral authority"?
> 
> I don't think anyone here is saying that ALL people who watch porn are bad. It has been made clear time and time again, that if 2 people consent to it, then fine, go for it. It's only when one person CHOOSES it over the other persons feelings that it becomes an issue.
> 
> And why is it not ok to give a person an ultimatum, when they are being hurt? everyone in a harmful relationship of any sort gives the other ultimatums at one point or the other, whether it be about alcohol, gambling, going out too much with friends all week. It's how you determine whether the relationship is worth saving or not.
> 
> 
> No offense and I don't mean any disrespect at all, but you know what it sounds like when people who are the wrong-doers defend their "rights" or "privacy" or "individuality", they sound like spoiled little children who don't want to be looked at while they're misbehaving. It sounds so childish.


Oh my God you are really controlling and set in your ways, aren't you? You even try to use shaming to get people on your side. "Oh, I'm so embarrassed, she called me a spoiled little kid. Porn is bad everyone" Yar, right.

Here's an advice: Try to get out of your comfort zone once in a while. You seem a bit too bitter.


----------



## triggerhappy

> The almost militant call to arms that you're espousing


 And you defending man-kinds right to view it is not militant? Pot, kettle.. 


You implied ultimatums were an awful thing to impose on another person. Back-peddling. 


I feel you have personally insulted me indeed. but I guess you're here to tell me how to feel about this, and about porn, because that's what you're here for in this thread after-all, isn't it? That's the bottom line when you break it down, is telling a partner they are not suppose to be, or allowed to be hurt about porn in their relationship.


----------



## triggerhappy

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Oh my God you are really controlling and set in your ways, aren't you? You even try to use shaming to get people on your side. "Oh, I'm so embarrassed, she called me a spoiled little kid. Porn is bad everyone" Yar, right.
> 
> Here's an advice: Try to get out of your comfort zone once in a while. You seem a bit too bitter.




there's goes that word "bitter" again. Hi, Bitter!


----------



## richie33

You posted in another thread football is no longer watched in your home cause woman are being objectified in commercials and I assume as cheerleaders. It's not just porn you have a problem with.


----------



## triggerhappy

richie33 said:


> You posted in another thread football is no longer watched in your home cause woman are being objectified in commercials and I assume as cheerleaders. It's not just porn you have a problem with.


and.. your point? are you going to go around chasing me around TAM dissecting all my posts trying to prove some obscure point?

We enjoy many other tv shows, and movies. You're going to crucify me because we BOTH made a decision to not accept that as part of our media entertainment?

See what I mean? this is exactly what I'm talking about. This right here is textbook example. Now I'm going to be made out to be the evil witch on a decision that both me and my husband made.


----------



## triggerhappy

Talk about trying to shame a woman into acceptance..


----------



## A Bit Much

> a decision that both me and my husband made.


I've been following this thread casually and this is my first response but I'm curious.

Who brought the subject up in your relationship about the football/commercial/objectification thing?


----------



## triggerhappy

A Bit Much said:


> I've been following this thread casually and this is my first response but I'm curious.
> 
> Who brought the subject up in your relationship about the football/commercial/objectification thing?


It's something that has always made us both feel uncomfortable when it would come up. 

That's hard for you to believe isn't it?


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

triggerhappy said:


> Talk about trying to shame a woman into acceptance..


Yes, dear God, we are trying to shame you into acceptance. You opened a thread, called people who watch porn "wrongdoers" and "spoiled little children" , we offer our own views while you just go on and on insulting and ridiculing other people and we are now shaming you into acceptance? Your self-victimizing knows no bounds.

I'm out. Got better things to do, got porn to watch.


----------



## A Bit Much

triggerhappy said:


> It's something that has always made us both feel uncomfortable when it would come up.
> 
> *That's hard for you to believe isn't it*?


Um, that's was uncalled for. I was only curious how the topic came up at all, excuse me for asking.


----------



## Maricha75

triggerhappy said:


> Talk about trying to shame a woman into acceptance..


Because he questioned whether your stance is porn only or what you perceive to be the objectification of women? :scratchhead:

I don't understand not watching football for that reason, myself. We watch football (occasionally), and UFC, and NASCAR. When it comes to commercials...we fast forward through them. Cheerleaders? Same thing. So actually, I AM curious why you choose not to watch football.


----------



## triggerhappy

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Yes, dear God, we are trying to shame you into acceptance. You opened a thread, called people who watch porn "wrongdoers" and "spoiled little children" , we offer our own views while you just go on and on insulting and ridiculing other people and we are now shaming you into acceptance? Your self-victimizing knows no bounds.
> 
> I'm out. Got better things to do, got porn to watch.


because the people who are "offering their views" are the very people who have a problem with it.

It's like asking a drug addict advice about quitting drugs.


----------



## triggerhappy

A Bit Much said:


> Um, that's was uncalled for. I was only curious how the topic came up at all, excuse me for asking.


suuure you were.


----------



## A Bit Much

triggerhappy said:


> suuure you were.


If you question my motives you could have easily declined to answer.

It begs the thought that you possibly are this dogmatic and combative when it comes to your opinions in MANY things and your husband may just go along with you to keep the peace.

Have a great day.


----------



## Davelli0331

triggerhappy said:


> I feel you have personally insulted me indeed. but I guess you're here to tell me how to feel about this, and about porn, because that's what you're here for in this thread after-all, isn't it? That's the bottom line when you break it down, is telling a partner they are not suppose to be, or allowed to be hurt about porn in their relationship.


No one here is telling you how you should feel about anything. I told you how I feel about it, along with how I feel about people pushing their ideas of morality on others, but I never once said you had to agree with me, nor has anyone else here.

I and others have mentioned several times that we can clearly understand that porn can be hurtful. No one here has said that a spouse can't be hurt by it.

Look, you have obviously been very hurt by porn. I'm very sorry that's happened to you. But just because I disagree with you doesn't mean that I have some sort of mean malicious intent towards you, or my W, or anyone regarding porn. Like I said, every person and every couple is different, and how they deal with it is up to them.

You can't seem to separate your hurt from the fact that others have dissenting opinions. I would imagine that's due to how badly you've been hurt by it. And I truly am sorry that you're going through that. I think everyone here has probably gone through something equally rough, whether in marriage or some other walk of life.


----------



## Maricha75

triggerhappy said:


> suuure you were.


Fine then, this ANTI-PORN woman is asking the same question A Bit Much asked! How did it come to be that football made the cut list?


----------



## triggerhappy

Maricha75 said:


> Because he questioned whether your stance is porn only or what you perceive to be the objectification of women? :scratchhead:
> 
> I don't understand not watching football for that reason, myself. We watch football (occasionally), and UFC, and NASCAR. When it comes to commercials...we fast forward through them. Cheerleaders? Same thing. So actually, I AM curious why you choose not to watch football.


Yes, because of objectification of women. Is it wrong? 


Does that make all the women who come in here who don't want porn part of their lives dis-validated? 

This is about women who come here and are made to feel like they are the wrong-doers for not allowing porn in their marriage.

I'm curious though, why do you fast-forward during commercials and cheerleaders?


----------



## triggerhappy

A Bit Much said:


> If you question my motives you could have easily declined to answer.
> 
> It begs the thought that you possibly are this dogmatic and combative when it comes to your opinions in MANY things and your husband may just go along with you to keep the peace.
> 
> Have a great day.


No, you see, that's where you're wrong. Not only do I want my husband to pursue his interests outside of our immediate relationship, I lovingly and constantly encourage it and push him to do so. Which is why we are in a mutual loving relationship and have been married almost 10 years.

it's so hypocritical to make judgment calls like that when you really don't know the inner workings of any particular relationship.


----------



## Open up now let it all go

If porn is such a sensitive issue between a couple that it is a potential deal-breaker with divorce as consequence then they better have made up their minds very well whether porn is okay or not before marriage. If either a user promises to abstain and subsequently use anyway or the opposing partner has not made their expectations clear then you either fight for a resolution that works for both of you or you terminate the relationship. Consensus about the issue does not always mean someone stops using or someone accepts the other using. It could be either one, or something in between. Unfortunately there are many men and women that fail to construct these boundaries for their relationship and when it actually _does_ become an issue then who is to blame? I think it's a rather weak approach to always label the porn user an 'addict' when issues over porn arise.


----------



## Maricha75

triggerhappy said:


> Yes, because of objectification of women. Is it wrong?
> 
> 
> Does that make all the women who come in here who don't want porn part of their lives dis-validated?
> 
> This is about women who come here and are made to feel like they are the wrong-doers for not allowing porn in their marriage.
> 
> I'm curious though, why do you fast-forward during commercials and cheerleaders?


We fast-forward because we are watching a GAME or a FIGHT. We fast-forward through anything we are watching on TV. Cheerleaders it is because we don't care for cheers or whatever the hell else they are doing. We record the game, to watch the game. Just like fights and races, etc. When it comes to UFC, we don't always fast-forward through the girls holding up the signs because it is such a short time. But sometimes, yes, we do. And I'm not the one who started doing it. I never made a comment about them and my husband just fast-forwarded past them.

As for commercials...well, I really hate commercials. We have DVR so we can skip over them all. Has nothing to do with perceived objectification. Has everything to do with our focus being on the program we have chosen to watch.


----------



## triggerhappy

The bottom line of this topic is that when someone, anyone, tries to tell victims that it's not ok to accept porn in their relationship, men who watch porn will breakdown the double-doors in these threads to defend_ man-kinds_ rights to view it. It's not just good enough that *they* watch it and sneak it behind their woman's backs, but they have to *recruit and infect* everyone else to accept or stand up to their right to have it. 

AND the beauty of it all, is that THEY are allowed to be "militant" about it, but god forbid a woman plants her feet firmly and says NO, I will not accept this, I don't have to accept this! and she will be called all the classic names Pro-porners use;

Narrow-minded
insecure
militant
Prude
Puritan
martyr
Jealous
controllers


just to name a few names







This proved my point, almost like I set the bait and it was snatched by hungry sharks.


----------



## triggerhappy

> And I'm not the one who started doing it. I never made a comment about them and my husband just fast-forwarded past them



See, guys like this do exist. It's a beautiful thing! You have a gem.


----------



## anony2

triggerhappy said:


> The bottom line of this topic is that when someone, anyone, tries to tell victims that it's not ok to accept porn in their relationship, men who watch porn will breakdown the double doors in these threads to defend man-kinds rights to view it. It's not just good enough that *they* watch it and sneak it behind their woman's backs, but they have to *recruit and infect* everyone else to accept or stand up to their right to have it.
> 
> AND the beauty of it all, is that THEY are allowed to be "militant" about it, but god forbid a woman palnts her feet firmly and says NO, I will not accept this, I don't have to accept this! and she will be called all the classic names Pro-porners use;
> 
> Narrow-minded
> insecure
> militant
> Prude
> Puritan
> martyr
> Jealous
> controllers
> 
> 
> just to name a few names
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This proved my point, almost like I set the bait and it was snatched by hungry sharks.


You are 100% right, I have been called these names by some of the very people on this thread because of my anti-porn stance. Some of the people that agreed with you but said that they watched porn are some of the people that did that but yet, when I spoke about Open Marriages, these same people said that it was morally wrong...go figure.


----------



## Maricha75

triggerhappy said:


> Yes, because of objectification of women. Is it wrong?
> 
> 
> Does that make all the women who come in here who don't want porn part of their lives dis-validated?
> 
> This is about women who come here and are made to feel like they are the wrong-doers for not allowing porn in their marriage.
> 
> I'm curious though, why do you fast-forward during commercials and cheerleaders?


In the previous post, I addressed the reason we fast-forward. OK, so regarding the rest...

My question about why you choose not to watch football was because you blasted Richie for saying he suspected that there was more to this than just porn. And he was right, obviously. For you, at least, it is about objectifying women. It isn't unreasonable that someone would feel that way. Therealbrighteyes does. And I totally respect that opinion. She states the facts of what she has witnessed in the industry herself. But she doesn't vilify all men who watch it with their wives' consent. 

Now, nearly every man in this thread has said that if one partner has a problem with it then they need to see if there can be some kind of compromise. There isn't always a viable compromise, which many have also acknowledged.

As has been stated before: if there is a problem, you need to discuss with your partner. If it is a dealbreaker for you...then stick to it. And if your spouse lies to you about it, only you can decide whether or not you will stay in the marriage. It doesn't matter if I don't like porn: my husband doesn't either. It doesn't matter if Jaquen (sorry for using you again Jaquen lol) likes porn: his wife is perfectly ok with it. It doesn't matter if Tigger doesn't like it because of her experience with her husband. It doesn't matter if Lisa doesn't like it because of her experience with her husband. It doesn't matter is SB likes it but she chooses not to look at it because her SO has requested that she not do it. What matters is that the one who comes here has an issue... and if that issue is a dealbreaker for her, then she needs to be prepared to take steps toward ending the marriage, or just turning a blind eye. That's really what it boils down to: each person's boundaries and whether or not they will enforce them.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

triggerhappy said:


> Yes, because of objectification of women. Is it wrong?


that's not wrong at all. Are you this against the objectification of men as well?


----------



## triggerhappy

This thread reminds me of the movie the Stepford Wives. Where the men had control over how women behaved and thought in the community, and if a "new neighbor" who wasn't privy to how things operate in "Pleasantville" moved in, an immediate meeting would be called for to change it!!! 










:allhail:


----------



## triggerhappy

ScarletBegonias said:


> that's not wrong at all. Are you this against the objectification of men as well?


ABSOLUTELY!! my husband is as well too, and is totally insulted how men are portrayed in the media as well.


----------



## Open up now let it all go

Interesting, yet polarizing discussion this is.

I'll have to go now. My girlfriend is coming over and I need to quickly attach electrodes to my nipples to exite myself as the regular animal porn isn't doing it for me anymore.

Have a good night.


----------



## Cletus

triggerhappy said:


> See, guys like this do exist. It's a beautiful thing! You have a gem.


I do the same. Always have. So now I'm confused as to whether I'm a gem, an addict, or a bully.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## triggerhappy

Maricha75 said:


> In the previous post, I addressed the reason we fast-forward. OK, so regarding the rest...
> 
> My question about why you choose not to watch football was because you blasted Richie for saying he suspected that there was more to this than just porn. And he was right, obviously. For you, at least, it is about objectifying women. It isn't unreasonable that someone would feel that way. Therealbrighteyes does. And I totally respect that opinion. She states the facts of what she has witnessed in the industry herself. But she doesn't vilify all men who watch it with their wives' consent.
> 
> Now, nearly every man in this thread has said that if one partner has a problem with it then they need to see if there can be some kind of compromise. There isn't always a viable compromise, which many have also acknowledged.
> 
> As has been stated before: if there is a problem, you need to discuss with your partner. If it is a dealbreaker for you...then stick to it. And if your spouse lies to you about it, only you can decide whether or not you will stay in the marriage. It doesn't matter if I don't like porn: my husband doesn't either. It doesn't matter if Jaquen (sorry for using you again Jaquen lol) likes porn: his wife is perfectly ok with it. It doesn't matter if Tigger doesn't like it because of her experience with her husband. It doesn't matter if Lisa doesn't like it because of her experience with her husband. It doesn't matter is SB likes it but she chooses not to look at it because her SO has requested that she not do it. What matters is that the one who comes here has an issue... and if that issue is a dealbreaker for her, then she needs to be prepared to take steps toward ending the marriage, or just turning a blind eye. That's really what it boils down to: each person's boundaries and whether or not they will enforce them.



And you know what? how people choose to deal with this issue in their private life is up to them. My only concern is when it leaves their private lives and enters a marriage forum such as this one, and people who are pro-porners descend upon them like swarm of locusts. That's my only issue. It's truly hard to witness without saying something about it.
I think women should be allowed to not accept it without being villinized for it when they aren't the ones not doing anything wrong.


----------



## Maricha75

Cletus said:


> I do the same. Always have. So now I'm confused as to whether I'm a gem, an addict, or a bully.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes.


----------



## Davelli0331

Open up now let it all go said:


> Interesting, yet polarizing discussion this is.
> 
> I'll have to go now. My girlfriend is coming over and I need to quickly attach electrodes to my nipples to exite myself as the regular animal porn isn't doing it for me anymore.
> 
> Have a good night.


"Interesting" is a mild way to put it.

I actually agree with TriggerHappy on a few points she's made here and there, but then she takes it to such cartoonish extremes that I'm just left kinda scratching my head.

Btw, TriggerHappy is an incredibly appropriate name for you, OP


----------



## ScarletBegonias

I think being against porn is a very fair boundary provided it's a boundary that is openly discussed before marriage and everyone is on board with it.
My SO isn't against porn in general but he's against porn when in a relationship.I'm only against certain types of porn regardless of relationship status.
He asked me to stop viewing porn pics casually,gave very solid reasons that I could connect with and I respected his request.It's that easy but then again,he meets all my needs and I was just looking bc I find sex and naked people fascinating
It gets dodgy when people don't express their hatred for something up front and it has to be addressed in the heat of the moment.Usually both parties shut down and no one is heard.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Ladies!
Finally, a permanent solution to a sticky problem.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Caribbean Man said:


> Ladies!
> Finally, a permanent solution to a sticky problem.


DISLIKE:wtf:


----------



## triggerhappy

Caribbean Man said:


> Ladies!
> Finally, a permanent solution to a sticky problem.


*Only* 6 hours?


----------



## Caribbean Man

ScarletBegonias said:


> DISLIKE:wtf:


Well it might be a great way to stop the men from looking at porn, and jackin' off.
Just remove the label and replace it with an " Astro glide " or 
" KY Jelly " label.......

Its supposed to last for up to 6 hours.

Just trying to help with the porn problem...


----------



## anony2

triggerhappy said:


> And you know what? how people choose to deal with this issue in their private life is up to them. My only concern is when it leaves their private lives and enters a marriage forum such as this one, and *people who are pro-porners descend upon them like swarm of locusts*. That's my only issue.
> I think women should be allowed to not accept it without being villinized for it when they aren't the ones not doing anything wrong.


Not only do they swarm, they also make the person feel as if there is something wrong with them by insulting them. So that person is left feeling as if they are the problem instead of the porn addict who is replacing his wife with porn. If you want it in your marriage, fine, but do not say that a person who does NOT want it in their marriage is flawed.

Personally, I found that the stats on the amount of BOTH men and women in porn who have been sexually molested staggering. That alone is enough for me not to be interested in porn. I choose not to capitalize on someone else's anguish even if they do not see it as such as of now, they might eventually. I also find it slightly odd that some of the "PURE" people watch porn and fantasize about other men, and get off on porn which is nothing but people that they would consider "UNPURE"....LMAO. People are so strange at times.


----------



## Caribbean Man

triggerhappy said:


> *Only* 6 hours?


Just replace the label with one from his favourite
"masturbatory lotion."
He won't know the difference.....
And BINGO! Problem solved.


----------



## Maricha75

Caribbean Man said:


> Ladies!
> Finally, a permanent solution to a sticky problem.


Nah...no need for that here.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Caribbean Man said:


> Well it might be a great way to stop the men from looking at porn, and jackin' off.
> Just remove the label and replace it with an " Astro glide " or
> " KY Jelly " label.......
> 
> Its supposed to last for up to 6 hours.
> 
> Just trying to help with the porn problem...


or you could have sex until he can't get it up for masturbation but that's just what I'd do if I had an issue with SO viewing porn.I'm sure other ladies have other ways of fixing issues.


----------



## ocotillo

triggerhappy said:


> And you know what? how people choose to deal with this issue in their private life is up to them. My only concern is when it leaves their private lives and enters a marriage forum such as this one, and people who are pro-porners descend upon them like swarm of locusts. That's my only issue. It's truly hard to witness without saying something about it.
> I think women should be allowed to not accept it without being villinized for it when they aren't the ones not doing anything wrong.


My wife strongly disapproves of pornography and I respect that. 

At the same time though, we both have a bone of contention with her extended family. Our youngest is still at home and working on a Master's in Art History and hiding textbooks which present a chronological history of the human form in art when they come to visit gets old after awhile. They seem to think her chosen field is institutionalized porn.

That's really my primary interest in threads like this, although I do feel sorry for men whose wives decide that sex is not really that important in marriage and then go ballistic when they catch him with porn after months or years of neglect.


----------



## Caribbean Man

ScarletBegonias said:


> *or you could have sex until he can't get it up for masturbation* but that's just what I'd do if I had an issue with SO viewing porn.I'm sure other ladies have other ways of fixing issues.


That's why you are so different Scarlet.
Some women refuse to have good sex with their husbands, complain of low drive etc., constantly reject him and when he turns to porn, suddenly they get insecure and their libido comes back....

The solution to that porn problem is very easy.
The problem is not the porn.It is deeper.
Find the problem and deal with it.


----------



## anony2

"When you watch porn by yourself, on some subtle level you experience it as a failure to be selected for sex. Sex is happening “right in front of you” by a attractive available female, but she doesn’t choose you to have sex with. She does it with her co-star. *So on a subtle level you lose. He’s the Alpha, you’re the Beta pumping your own *****."

Porn can also work as the crutch propping up your end of a sexless or low sex marriage. At some point if *you’re going to move on and fix the problem between you and your wife, you’re going to have to kick the crutch out from under you and learn to stand on your own two feet again. If you’re always whacking off to porn, you’ll never have the motivation to rock her world, nor the ability anyway if you’re drained and limp.*

Constantly Whacking Off To Porn Isn’t An Alpha Male Skill…. | Married Man Sex Life


----------



## Cletus

triggerhappy said:


> AND the beauty of it all, is that THEY are allowed to be "militant" about it, but god forbid a woman plants her feet firmly and says NO, I will not accept this, I don't have to accept this! and she will be called all the classic names Pro-porners use;
> 
> Narrow-minded
> insecure
> militant
> Prude
> Puritan
> martyr
> Jealous
> controllers
> 
> 
> just to name a few names
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This proved my point, almost like I set the bait and it was snatched by hungry sharks.


Go back and reread your opening post in this thread and then look me straight in the eye and tell me it was written with the intent of having a meaningful conversation.

You've made several statements of content and intent in my posts there were never there. I am happy to defend everything I actually said, but not the words that have been put into my mouth by others.

You went chumming for sharks and shouldn't be surprised when you found a few.


----------



## Caribbean Man

anony2 said:


> "When you watch porn by yourself, on some subtle level you experience it as a failure to be selected for sex. Sex is happening “right in front of you” by a attractive available female, but she doesn’t choose you to have sex with. She does it with her co-star. *So on a subtle level you lose. He’s the Alpha, you’re the Beta pumping your own *****."
> 
> Porn can also work as the crutch propping up your end of a sexless or low sex marriage. At some point if *you’re going to move on and fix the problem between you and your wife, you’re going to have to kick the crutch out from under you and learn to stand on your own two feet again. If you’re always whacking off to porn, you’ll never have the motivation to rock her world, nor the ability anyway if you’re drained and limp.*
> 
> Constantly Whacking Off To Porn Isn’t An Alpha Male Skill…. | Married Man Sex Life



But isn't Athol Kay , MMSL and the whole " Alpha/ Beta " stuff discredited by the majority of women here on TAM?
so could that part quoted also be just 
"... a bunch of hogwash designed for weak men.."


----------



## CallaLily

Wow where is jaquen, he is usually all up in the porn threads! He must be laying low for awhile.


----------



## anony2

Caribbean Man said:


> But isn't Athol Kay , MMSL and the whole " Alpha/ Beta " stuff discredited by the majority of women here on TAM?
> so could that part quoted also be just
> "... a bunch of hogwash designed for weak men.."


I don't know, is it? If you are claiming it, then back it up with facts...
Maybe the wife isn't having sex with the husband because he is constantly draining his sexual energy watching porn. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Athol goes on to say:

"*Not to mention the legion of women that complain their husband won’t have sex with them because he’s hooked on porn and always scurrying off to the den at 1am for Barely Legal Asian Anal Cum Dumpsters In The Hood Booty VII. *(Scene three rocks!)
I’m not saying never watch it. I’m not saying that it is immoral, though I understand that some readers will think that it is. For some low sex desire people porn is a great aid at triggering increased arousal and general sexual interest even. I’m just asking how is it working out for you?* Is it increasing your sexiness and attractiveness, or is it subtly sapping it?*"

Constantly Whacking Off To Porn Isn’t An Alpha Male Skill…. | Married Man Sex Life


----------



## Maricha75

CallaLily said:


> Wow where is jaquen, he is usually all up in the porn threads! He must be laying low for awhile.


Keep reading... he was here.


----------



## OrangeCrush

Tigger said:


> Maybe that is what more women should do is vote with their feet.


agreed. it's disappointing to find out that a guy watches porn-imho it shows a lack of class and worse, a lack of imagination. i've never met a guy who is really into porn who isn't also incredibly dull. if i find out a guy is into porn i lose respect for him and i just break up with him, because it's a sign we're not going to be compatible on many different levels.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

anony2 said:


> "When you watch porn by yourself, on some subtle level you experience it as a failure to be selected for sex. Sex is happening “right in front of you” by a attractive available female, but she doesn’t choose you to have sex with. She does it with her co-star. *So on a subtle level you lose. He’s the Alpha, you’re the Beta pumping your own *****."
> 
> Porn can also work as the crutch propping up your end of a sexless or low sex marriage. At some point if *you’re going to move on and fix the problem between you and your wife, you’re going to have to kick the crutch out from under you and learn to stand on your own two feet again. If you’re always whacking off to porn, you’ll never have the motivation to rock her world, nor the ability anyway if you’re drained and limp.*
> 
> Constantly Whacking Off To Porn Isn’t An Alpha Male Skill…. | Married Man Sex Life


Ummm, who said anything about constantly jacking off to porn on this thread? There's a thing called moderation you know? Some people use it, you know?


----------



## Thundarr

For a small fee I'd be glad to interpret. Could probably clear up 90% of the disagreements here.

Example,
-man shouldn't whack to porn and ignore woman.
-woman shouldn't shutdown sex and also eliminate porn.
-porn is ok for some and not for others.

Does everyone understand these are not the same topic?


----------



## Caribbean Man

OrangeCrush said:


> agreed. it's disappointing to find out that a guy watches porn-imho* it shows a lack of class and worse, a lack of imagination.*


Sooooo,
If a woman enjoys looking at porn during or before her solo sessions, or at anytime,
Does that mean that she is exhibiting a lack of class or a lack of imagination?

Just asking ,
Because there are many women on TAM who actually enjoy porn either by themselves or with their significant other.....


----------



## anony2

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Ummm, who said anything about constantly jacking off to porn on this thread? There's a thing called moderation you know? Some people use it, you know?


Then if doesn't apply to you, don't read it. Simple as that. This thread isn't about moderation....it is about women not liking porn. Well, my post is a possible explanation of why that is according to the author of Married Man Sex Life, which is often quoted in this forum.


----------



## Tigger

triggerhappy said:


> And you defending man-kinds right to view it is not militant? Pot, kettle..
> 
> 
> You implied ultimatums were an awful thing to impose on another person. Back-peddling.
> 
> 
> I feel you have personally insulted me indeed. but I guess you're here to tell me how to feel about this, and about porn, because that's what you're here for in this thread after-all, isn't it? That's the bottom line when you break it down, is telling a partner they are not suppose to be, or allowed to be hurt about porn in their relationship.


I'm not sure how they can be insulted on hearing what women really think about men using porn.

...picturing that pathetic male dog going around humping everyone's leg with the silly grin.

When I am saying women may see you as childish, weak, pathetic the men say oh no you are just bitter how can women think that about me and my darling pee pee and my precious porn.

They can say whatever trying to tell me how I feel about something but it doesn't change how I really feel.

They know that.
They just don't want to hear it.


----------



## Caribbean Man

anony2 said:


> Then if doesn't apply to you, don't read it. Simple as that. This thread isn't about moderation....it is about women not liking porn. Well, my post is a possible explanation of why that is.


Um,
I think the majority of women on this thread did say that they have no problem with porn, only if it didn't affect their sex lives.
So in reality the general consensus by women on this thread is that porn in moderation is ok.

For reference you can go back to the start of the thread.


----------



## Maricha75

OrangeCrush said:


> agreed. it's disappointing to find out that a guy watches porn-imho it shows a lack of class and worse, a lack of imagination.* i've never met a guy who is really into porn who isn't also incredibly dull.* if i find out a guy is into porn i lose respect for him and i just break up with him, because it's a sign we're not going to be compatible on many different levels.


If you mean to the point that the porn takes over his sex life...i.e., excludes a real life partner in any way, then yes, I agree with that. However, I DO know men who watch it and I have had some of the most intelligent, stimulating conversations ever. Does that mean I'm gonna try to get with them (if I wasn't married already)? Nope. Because that is one of my boundaries. I don't mind being friends with them, but I couldn't have a romantic relationship with them. But you know what? That's ok. They are cool with my view on porn and I'm cool with theirs. But just because someone views porn, it doesn't make them boring people. There are plenty of boring people who DON'T watch it.... just sayin'


----------



## OrionGordon

I'm not really into porn, but I'm thinking it is no different than any other media that skews our sense of reality with one another...

Throw it in there with Romance Novels, Pop Music, Disney Movies, Reality TV.... just the folks are nekkid lol


----------



## anony2

Caribbean Man said:


> Um,
> I think the majority of women on this thread did say that they have no problem with porn, *only if it didn't affect their sex lives*.
> So in reality the general consensus by women on this thread is that porn in moderation is ok.
> 
> For reference you can go back to the start of the thread.


Which is exactly what Athol says had you read what I quoted. MAYBE the women that dislike porn have HAD IT EFFECT THEIR SEX LIFE...??? 

Do I really have to spell it out to you CM?


----------



## Tigger

Open up now let it all go said:


> If porn is such a sensitive issue between a couple that it is a potential deal-breaker with divorce as consequence then they better have made up their minds very well whether porn is okay or not before marriage. If either a user promises to abstain and subsequently use anyway or the opposing partner has not made their expectations clear then you either fight for a resolution that works for both of you or you terminate the relationship. Consensus about the issue does not always mean someone stops using or someone accepts the other using. It could be either one, or something in between. Unfortunately there are many men and women that fail to construct these boundaries for their relationship and when it actually _does_ become an issue then who is to blame? I think it's a rather weak approach to always label the porn user an 'addict' when issues over porn arise.


In my case and in some others, they lied about it. Mine said he was an occasional user. I had no problem with that.

I didn't find out the extent of this use until after marriage.


----------



## Tigger

triggerhappy said:


> The bottom line of this topic is that when someone, anyone, tries to tell victims that it's not ok to accept porn in their relationship, men who watch porn will breakdown the double-doors in these threads to defend_ man-kinds_ rights to view it. It's not just good enough that *they* watch it and sneak it behind their woman's backs, but they have to *recruit and infect* everyone else to accept or stand up to their right to have it.
> 
> AND the beauty of it all, is that THEY are allowed to be "militant" about it, but god forbid a woman plants her feet firmly and says NO, I will not accept this, I don't have to accept this! and she will be called all the classic names Pro-porners use;
> 
> Narrow-minded
> insecure
> militant
> Prude
> Puritan
> martyr
> Jealous
> controllers
> 
> 
> just to name a few names
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This proved my point, almost like I set the bait and it was snatched by hungry sharks.


I noticed that too. Too bad none of those things have anything to do with me! lol

I notice they completely miss the point of what women think of them for using porn. I suspect they don't care.

I thought men wanted to be the hero in their woman's eyes.


----------



## Tigger

ScarletBegonias said:


> or you could have sex until he can't get it up for masturbation but that's just what I'd do if I had an issue with SO viewing porn.I'm sure other ladies have other ways of fixing issues.


I thought that would fix our problem too but all he did was reject me saying he was too tired or his stomach was upset or some nonsense and then be wanking to porn 5 minutes after I would leave the house or go to bed.


----------



## Cletus

Tigger said:


> I noticed that too. Too bad none of those things have anything to do with me! lol
> 
> I notice they completely miss the point of what women think of them for using porn. I suspect they don't care.
> 
> I thought men wanted to be the hero in their woman's eyes.


I am a hero in my wife's eyes, and she in mine. Imperfect heroes, but so was Batman, and that was part of his allure.

How dreadfully condescending of you to imply otherwise without even asking.


----------



## OrionGordon

Im hesitant to blame porn, because if there was no porn, it would be something else....

There are a lot of factors at work. The accessibility and control porn provides, the lack of immediate consequence. You just want to get off and move along. So you satisfy yourself when your partner is unable or unwilling.

Ive read a few studies on it, many men who use porn often do it because they are tired of rejection from their partner, don't want to bother them if their sex drives aren't synced, their partner wont validate their interests etc

unfortunately its hurtful and brings insecurity because of the unrealistic images it portrays and users can become accustomed to. 

I think we as humans have out smarted ourselves in a lot of capacities. Wife wont give it up, get a side chick.
Man is impotent? Find a co-worker or old friend...
In all the psychobabble that exists (and I believe to be legitimate)

it all comes down to people will compensate for what they feel they are not getting, at any costs. Some things are more socially acceptable than others, but honestly, that changes with time like everything else...

As much as we would want, we cant be EVERYTHING to a partner, we can only be all we have. It is up to them whether they are content with that or not.


----------



## Tigger

Cletus said:


> I am a hero in my wife's eyes, and she in mine. Imperfect heroes, but so was Batman, and that was part of his allure.
> 
> How dreadfully condescending of you to imply otherwise without even asking.


How do you know this?


----------



## Cletus

Tigger said:


> How do you know this?


Because she has basically said as much to my face.


----------



## Davelli0331

Tigger said:


> I'm not sure how they can be insulted on hearing what women really think about men using porn.
> 
> ...picturing that pathetic male dog going around humping everyone's leg with the silly grin.
> 
> When I am saying women may see you as childish, weak, pathetic the men say oh no you are just bitter how can women think that about me and my darling pee pee and my precious porn.
> 
> They can say whatever trying to tell me how I feel about something but it doesn't change how I really feel.
> 
> They know that.
> They just don't want to hear it.


This is downright hateful and nasty. In fact, the only two people in this entire thread that have been hateful and nasty are you and TriggerHappy. Everyone else has actually been trying to carry on an intelligenct debate.

And for the record, my wife and I don't have a problem with it. She doesn't care so long as it doesn't affect our sex lives. I bring it up to her every couple weeks to make sure she really doesn't care. I've even given it up a few times voluntarily out of a sense of guilt, thinking that maybe she wasn't being honest, but every time she has literally called that silly bc she really does have no problem with it.

Blech. I am done with this thread. I can't remember the last time such hateful, intolerant people trolled TAM this hard. It's utterly repulsive.


----------



## TiggyBlue

I agree there's no need to insult people.


----------



## Tigger

Davelli0331 said:


> This is downright hateful and nasty. In fact, the only two people in this entire thread that have been hateful and nasty are you and TriggerHappy. Everyone else has actually been trying to carry on an intelligenct debate.
> 
> And for the record, my wife and I don't have a problem with it. She doesn't care so long as it doesn't affect our sex lives. I bring it up to her every couple weeks to make sure she really doesn't care. I've even given it up a few times voluntarily out of a sense of guilt, thinking that maybe she wasn't being honest, but every time she has literally called that silly bc she really does have no problem with it.
> 
> Blech. I am done with this thread. I can't remember the last time such hateful, intolerant people trolled TAM this hard. It's utterly repulsive.


I'm a very left brained engineer. Some of us can be pretty blunt. 

You wife may not feel that way about you using porn. If she doesn't care, then there is no problem.


----------



## triggerhappy

Davelli0331 said:


> This is downright hateful and nasty. In fact, the only two people in this entire thread that have been hateful and nasty are you and TriggerHappy. Everyone else has actually been trying to carry on an intelligenct debate.
> 
> And for the record, my wife and I don't have a problem with it. She doesn't care so long as it doesn't affect our sex lives. I bring it up to her every couple weeks to make sure she really doesn't care. I've even given it up a few times voluntarily out of a sense of guilt, thinking that maybe she wasn't being honest, but every time she has literally called that silly bc she really does have no problem with it.
> 
> Blech. I am done with this thread. I can't remember the last time such hateful, intolerant people trolled TAM this hard. It's utterly repulsive.



How have I been hateful and nasty? just because I won't allow you to lead me quietly by the hand? 

Do you want to go back at all the posts where I, as well as other members were called names FIRST! because when I posted my OP, I was making a GENERALIZATION, specifically aimed at men who refuse to give up porn knowing full well it hurts their partner, and harms their relationship and marriage. When I was called "NARROW-MINDED" I stood up for myself and fought fire with fire, still trying to keep focus on the subject at hand and not allowing it to get ugly.

This is so typical of these threads, that's why they always get locked and deleted, not because of the women, but because of the guys! because they want to be able to verbally abuse you as you stand there like scared deer in headlights kitten while they go OFF on you calling you names and being condescending. Most of the guys who posted in this thread are porn addicts!! That is a fact! some of them in denial, and some even lying about how much porn they actually use for the sake of an argument, trying to claim they're only playing "devils advocate". You think that most people in this thread can't figure that out? that's obvious to both sexes in this thread, but very few will admit it. That's another problem porn addicts have that they think everyone is stupid. We have to treat them with little kid gloves, when they should just man-the-eff-up.


It's beyond any of those people to actually sit down, shut up and listen to what women have to say about the subject. They just don't want to hear it. they just want the freedom to wank away, AND they want little friends with them to support them which is why when a thread like this is started, you people band together like zombies and go for the kill.

This thread wasn't started for the addicts. It was for the women of addicts. 

We're not going to take it lying down, we're not! that's the whole point of this thread to begin with.


----------



## Cletus

triggerhappy said:


> How have I been hateful and nasty? just because I won't allow you to lead me quietly by the hand?
> 
> Do you want to go back at all the posts where I, as well as other members were called names FIRST! because when I posted my OP, I was making a GENERALIZATION, specifically aimed at men who refuse to give up porn knowing full well it hurts their partner, and harms their relationship and marriage. When I was called "NARROW-MINDED" I stood up for myself and fought fire with fire, still trying to keep focus on the subject at hand and not allowing it to get ugly.
> 
> This is so typical of these threads, that's why they always get locked and deleted, not because of the women, but because of the guys! because they want to be able to verbally abuse you as you stand there like scared deer in headlights kitten while they go OFF on you calling you names and being condescending. Most of the guys who posted in this thread are porn addicts!! That is a fact! some of them in denial, and some even lying about how much porn they actually use. You think that most people in this thread can't figure that out? that's obvious to both sexes in this thread, but very few will admit it.
> 
> 
> It's beyond any of those people to actually sit down, shut up and listen to what women have to say about the subject. They just don't want to hear it. they just want the freedom to wank away, AND they want little friends with them to support them which is why when a thread like this is started, you people band together like zombies and go for the kill.
> 
> This thread wasn't started for the addicts. It was for the women of addicts.
> 
> We're not going to take it lying down, we're not! that's the whole point of this thread to begin with.


Wow....


----------



## Davelli0331

Tigger said:


> I'm a very left brained engineer. Some of us can be pretty blunt.
> 
> You wife may not feel that way about you using porn. If she doesn't care, then there is no problem.


Please. I'm a software developer. Being in a technical field is no excuse for boorish behavior.

Now I really am done, though I will be reporting your posts to the mods.


----------



## Maricha75

Thundarr called it on page two:



Thundarr said:


> It's a matter of time before this thread head south though


----------



## Maricha75

Ok, I have been in this thread from the beginning...well, maybe page two or three, I can't remember. But the one thing I CAN remember is that "anti-porn" side started slinging mud BEFORE "pro-porn" IN THIS THREAD, at least. Like I said above: Thundarr called it on page two.


----------



## Cletus

Maricha75 said:


> Ok, I have been in this thread from the beginning...well, maybe page two or three, I can't remember. But the one thing I CAN remember is that "anti-porn" side started slinging mud BEFORE "pro-porn" IN THIS THREAD, at least. Like I said above: Thundarr called it on page two.


Thank you. I knew if I said it it would have suffered from a perceived lack of credibility.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

Another thing... These threads don't get closed because men are trying to shove their views down our throats. They get closed because people, ON BOTH SIDES, can't keep ONE DAMN DEBATE under control. It gets a little heated, and people start throwing sh*t at each other. And we wonder WHY porn is such a touchy subject? Because NEITHER side can debate, fully, without getting digs in there. Granted, SOME can be rational about it. But the majority of the time, it all goes to sh*t because people can't handle the topic.


----------



## ladybird

Elliott said:


> What is a guy to do?... suffer
> 
> Before you go ape crazy on me, hear me out.
> 
> If a husband is not getting enough sex (literally once or twice a month or every couple of months) how is he supposed to get satisfied? What are his choices?
> 
> 1. Watch porn
> 2. Go to strip clubs
> 3. Pay prostitutes
> 
> Many women on here can agree that they are hurt at how porn has robbed them of a intimacy with there husband (I can understand that). I believe that a husband would not want to have sex with his wife because:
> 
> 1. He's no longer physcially attracted to her
> 2. She only does the same things during sex
> 3. The lack of sex has lasted so long that he doesn't want you anymore.
> 
> At the same time the list of husbands whom are sexless on this website (and in the world) is growing (sex starved women can agree to this as well). Even single people can have sex more than twice a month, yet why should a married person have to settle for once or twice a month?
> 
> 
> My wife told me not to watch porn (she used to watch it with me BEFORE the children). But then she'll admit that "she's sorry that she's not in the mood again for sex and can we schedule it?" So what am I to do?
> 
> 
> In closing I don't think it's that some women are afraid to stand up. It's because they feel guilty, that they are not satisfying there husbands enough. They know it,... it's like a slap in the face that there husband is being turned on by some other woman. But the problem is that those same wives (for various reasons) let that happen. Why? Because they stopped doing what they were doing before the children were born. Every home wrecker and Gold digger knows the best way to steal your husband is to do all the things that you (the wife) won't. Strippers, prostitutes and porn stars know this as well.
> 
> Women are masters of psychological warefare. But ladies, let's not forget that other women know the same tricks that you do, and they will use them on your husband.


 That is an entirely different matter....


----------



## Thundarr

Maricha75 said:


> Ok, I have been in this thread from the beginning...well, maybe page two or three, I can't remember. But the one thing I CAN remember is that "anti-porn" side started slinging mud BEFORE "pro-porn" IN THIS THREAD, at least. Like I said above: Thundarr called it on page two.


In fairness I was predicting the inevitable future more than anything else. It seems like everyone not thinking they were heard was more prevelant than actually disagreement (my rose colored glasses). Trigger and Cletus both have very valid points that relate to a completely different set of circumstances. Trigger wondering why women who feel hurt don't make it a higher priority and Cletus thinking if the wife's shutting me down the don't tell me I can't watch porn. Same thing with other posters. They're both right from where I stand.


----------



## T&T

triggerhappy said:


> Most of the guys who posted in this thread are porn addicts!!


:scratchhead:


----------



## Thundarr

T&T sure there were jabs but way more misunderstandings. That quote was on page #27. Some of them get more frequent due to people arguing different points.


----------



## Maricha75

Thundarr said:


> In fairness I was predicting the inevitable future more than anything else. It seems like everyone not thinking they were heard was more prevelant than actually disagreement (my rose colored glasses). Trigger and Cletus both have very valid points that relate to a completely different set of circumstances. Trigger wondering why women who feel hurt don't make it a higher priority and Cletus thinking if the wife's shutting me down the don't tell me I can't watch porn. Same thing with other posters. They're both right from where I stand.


I totally agree with you. So many issues being brought into one thread... Nothing unusual about that, but everything gets clouded. The premise of the thread is that those who are blindsided shouldn't have to just "suck it up". I agree with that. However, I don't think it is right to attack those who 1. Have no issues with using/their spouses using porn or 2. Have no issues because their spouses DON'T use it. I have not been attacked for being anti-porn in this thread. I think it's because I have maintained what I always have: not in my marriage, idk in yours as long as one partner isn't being hurt by it.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

If you play porn backwards, you can hear Satan talking.


----------



## T&T

IMHO it's just like everything else in life.

Alcohol- use in moderation

Food- consume in moderation.

Weed- use in moderation

Smoking- A pack a day can kill you. A pack a year won't.

Porn- If you choose to view it do it in moderation.

Of course, excessive porn viewing can destroy a marriage. Watching it occasionally, not so much...


----------



## OrionGordon

Lot of hurt in some of these posts. Has anyone stopped think why porn actually exists? It didn't just drop out of the sky? root cause analysis, for the left Brained folks...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cletus

T&T said:


> IMHO it's just like everything else in life.
> 
> Alcohol- use in moderation
> 
> Food- consume in moderation.
> 
> Weed- use in moderation
> 
> Smoking- A pack a day can kill you. A pack a year won't.
> 
> Porn- If you choose to view it do it in moderation.
> 
> Of course, excessive porn viewing can destroy a marriage. Watching it occasionally, not so much...


That's why porn addiction isn't in the DSM V. It's no different than any other obsession or compulsion when overdone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

T&T said:


> IMHO it's just like everything else in life.
> 
> Alcohol- use in moderation
> 
> Food- consume in moderation.
> 
> Weed- use in moderation
> 
> Smoking- A pack a day can kill you. A pack a year won't.
> 
> Porn- If you choose to view it do it in moderation.
> 
> Of course, excessive porn viewing can destroy a marriage. Watching it occasionally, not so much...


Alcohol - we don't use, no desire to unless cooking with it.

Food - obviously, we do

Weed - never touched the stuff, no desire to

Smoking - we'll agree to disagree on that. My grandfather never smoked a day in his life, but died of cancer that is associated with smoking.

Porn - agreed.. if you choose to AND it doesn't interfere AND your SO has no issue with it, you're good to go. If you have to hide it and/or lie about it, and/or if it DOES interfere with your sex life, then there is a problem...and it should be addressed.


----------



## anony2

Cletus said:


> That's why porn addiction isn't in the DSM V. It's no different than any other obsession or compulsion when overdone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My counselor just told me last week that porn is the fastest growing addiction that they have seen to date and this tops video game addiction. A person can be addicted to ANYTHING...

"Addiction is a condition that results when a person ingests a substance (alcohol, cocaine, nicotine) or engages in an activity (gambling) that can be pleasurable but the continued use of which becomes compulsive and interferes with ordinary life responsibilities, such as work or *relationships*, even health. Users may not be aware that their behavior is out of control and causing problems for themselves and others."

Addiction | Psychology Today


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## Shadow_Nirvana

anony2 said:


> A person can be addicted to ANYTHING...


There. You said it yourself. Basically the same thing I said several pages ago, but was shot down because "that's not what the thread is about."

When fighting addiction on a society wide basis, you don't prohibit everything, you find the underlying reasons of addiction.


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## Created2Write

Drover said:


> I tend to agree with this. If it's a dealbreaker, then it is. But you should both know each other's dealbreakers in advance.
> 
> And if you consider something a dealbreaker that will force you to reject someone you otherwise love, and it happens to something many consider insignificant, maybe you should give serious thought to your own motivations and why you feel the way you do. It may just be some issue you yourself can/should work on rather than push on someone else...or maybe not, but you should do the work with an open mind yourself first.


I know this post was written ages ago, but I had to comment: not every woman dislikes porn just so she can find something to dislike. Many have real, legitimate reasons for it being a deal breaker. I liken it to alcohol; not everyone who drinks alcohol become alcoholics, but for some who have either had parents who were alcoholics, been alcoholics themselves, or had past relationships with alcoholics, being with someone who drinks alcohol can be difficult. For them they may not be able to be with someone who drinks alcohol. Having an alcoholic beverage may seem "insignificant" to us, but we've not been where they are. 

Same with porn. Some of us have legitimate reasons to dislike porn other than jealousy or insecurity. Porn really isn't an essential part of human happiness. Neither is alcohol, or a myriad of other things that we sort of "accept" in our society. Do we have a personal right to pursue those things if we want to? Yeah. Do others have a personal right to their boundaries regarding those things? Absolutely. 

And that is definitely why I agree that this sort of thing needs to be discussed. People underestimate the importance of compatibility, as if love will be enough to conquer all differences. Nope. It isn't. I thank God that my husband and I, as immature and young and impulsive as we were, had the wisdom to talk about these things before marriage.


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## anony2

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> There. You said it yourself. Basically the same thing I said several pages ago, but was shot down because "that's not what the thread is about."
> 
> When fighting addiction on a society wide basis, you don't prohibit everything, you find the underlying reasons of addiction.


Which the case of porn, is fear of intimacy...Which is what the wives are sitting around craving while their husband is watching porn after they go to bed. Is it any wonder that this causes a problem in some relationships?

I dont think anyone said anything about prohibiting porn, as far as I have read, but as for any addiction, you cannot be actively consumed by your choice of addiction and not facing the consequences of your addiction. In this case, the wives CAN see that it is a problem, just as if he were drinking or drugging it up.


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## Deejo

Read all the posts.

Strongly urge several of you to re-review the forum rules, particularly when it comes to name calling, personal attacks, baiting, or inciting. I don't have 3 hours to go through and prune out all the bullsh!t.

Thread closed.

As a courtesy, I am reminding participants that attempting to re-open THIS discussion will result in being banned.

The topic nor subject is likely to disappear from the forums. Back away for a bit and if you would like to further explore the subject of women and porn, I suggest you create a social group here on the boards where like minded folks can discuss the topic.


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