# His needs, Her needs



## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

I am currently reading this highly recommended book......and feel it is wisely and well written on the whole BUT.....

page 91, summary no. 10...However, I am struggling with this....

Never remind each other of past mistakes or dwell on present mistakes.

p.83

"an affair with Steve would be one of the biggest mistakes Charlotte could make. Bill (her H) would certainly regard it as a mistake.............................


............If Bill were to hammer Charlotte with constant reminders of how much suffering he went through because of her affair, and how difficult it is to forgive her, she wouldn't stick around very long for those conversations. and she might not even stay with him at all. He would be driving her away.

That's what happens when you dwell on each other's mistakes. You drive each other away emotionally if not physically."


I am struggling when I read this kind of support. 

I am still very much hurting and confused and trying hard to work on our marriage, but over 2 years since I first became suspicious of my H antics when at work and working away from home........18 months since actually finding evidence and dd2 was 9 months ago.......how do I not bring it up? 

Is this asking the impossible or is it just me that would find this impossible as we still discuss it and I still get angry and confused by it?! I still snipe.......throw it in his face.....

I want my FWH to read this book also, but now I'm not so sure if it implies I shouldn't be bringing up his mistakes and dwelling on them!

:scratchhead:

_His needs, Her needs ~ Willard F. Harley_


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

There probably is some truth into the idea that bringing it up might drive the WS away. I am sure this is part of the reason R is usually harder than D. 

The question becomes who's needs are more important, the WS or the BS's?

You need the dialogue to heal. He wants the silence to forget his guilt.

This becomes the source of resentment for the BS. For me it certainly was a key reason that the R failed. I started to weigh my other options. Started wondering if somebody else deserved my love more than the exWW. Started wondering how bad D really was, and how hard it would be to replace a cheating spouse.

That was my path for D and starting over after 23 years of marriage.

I am curious why you are trying to R? Just guessing it is due to fear of damaging kids, money, and finding a new companion.

There are so many sad stories on TAM. I hope yours gets better!!!


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

You are still dealing with the emotional fallout of the affair. That takes a long time, years even. Do not expect to be "over it" yet. Especially when you've got a dd2 and it's clear HE is nowhere near committed enough to repairing the damage to your marriage.

I think the book is saying that yes, once you two have reconciled and have indeed repaired and rebuilt your marriage post-affair, then it would be detrimental to keep bringing it up.

But to not bring it up now, while still dealing with it, would be rug-sweeping, and that will bite you in the butt in the future.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

Just because it's in a book doesn't mean you need to follow all the advice down to the letter. Use it as a guide to help you get through the process but try to be aware of YOUR needs (pun intended).


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

LRgirl said:


> I am currently reading this highly recommended book......and feel it is wisely and well written on the whole BUT.....
> 
> page 91, summary no. 10...However, I am struggling with this....
> 
> ...


Better advice... From a guy only 3 months into R....

Talk about it in a constructive way, but if you need to talk about it.. talk about it. The WS needs to know that you will want to and need to talk about it even though they want to put it behind them. The BS needs honest answers to many questions, and wants reassurances and other things from the WS. If the WS wants to stick around, they need to be patient and understanding.. they should respect the BS, something they've failed to do previously. The BS wants to know the WS is actually in it for the long haul.. if talking about it pushes them away, I'm sure most BS', would say 'bye'.... 

To just 'not bring it up' is something they call rugsweeping (I'm hip to the lingo)...

I agree, like mentioned above, once you get past a certain point, you wouldn't want to bring it up when in an argument etc.. once you've gone through R. That's a different scenario.. Like five years out, you're fighting over bills... and a snark comment about the A.... not cool.


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

LRgirl....well unfortunately inorder to R you have to forgive and that does mean you have to lay things to rest and put things in the past. Its like a wound...it will start to heal and scab over....but if you keep scratching off the scab and exposing the wound it has to start healing all over again. You can't heal until you lay it to rest and forgive and that means not bringing it up "throughing it in his face". If you truely want to reconcile you will realize that throughing "it" in his face is counter productive to "R". He can't start to forgive himself for letting you down until he knows you have forgiven him....so you have to start the process by forgiving him...you are still at step 1 if you have not truely forgiven him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

LRgirl said:


> I am currently reading this highly recommended book......and feel it is wisely and well written on the whole BUT.....
> 
> page 91, summary no. 10...However, I am struggling with this....
> 
> ...


There is no one path - nor is any advice right 100% of the time. Do what you need to do to heal yourself - first and foremost.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

LRgirl said:


> I am currently reading this highly recommended book......and feel it is wisely and well written on the whole BUT.....
> 
> page 91, summary no. 10...However, I am struggling with this....
> 
> ...


LRgirl,

I have read this book and it's quite good. But not everything he writes about, to me, should be taken as gospel.

For example. I'm not sure if it's in his book or on his blog, but he writes about a plan A to use when your spouse is cheating on you and won't stop contact. He suggests that for a number of weeks or months (I don't remember exactly), that you continue to be kind, caring and available to your CS and portray your best face, because you don't won't their most recent impression of you to be negative when they're trying to decide between the two of you (lol). Then after this time, if contact continues, you go to plan B and give them an ultimatum. 

Ugh...I don't think so.

Anyway, the way he describes bringing up "past" mistakes isn't entirely wrong if you look at his words closely. He uses the verbs "remind" and "dwell". Well, I can agree with that. You shouldn't be constantly reminding them or dwelling on their infidelity, nor using it as fodder during a non related marital argument. 

But, you should be able to discuss the affair in a reasonable and calm manner, especially early after. Later on, if a BS wants to discuss it again to keep from internalizing the pain and hurt, they should be able to do that - for as long as necessary.

I'm not a psychologist, that's just my layman's take - though it does come with hard earned experience.


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## calmwinds (Dec 10, 2012)

I think the key words here are "dwell" and "constant". I do not interpret the above exerpts to mean "never". I believe what is being suggested is that the BS not throw it out there all the time. For instance, every day, for whatever reason, the BS makes venomous comments toward the FWS even when they are trying to R, or when disagreements come up, bringing it up (say, your FWS says "Oh, you forgot to pick up the _____ from the store on your way home" and you reply, "Well, at least I didn't stop and fvck a co-worker"). I think that's the kind of interaction being referred to (although the scenario is ridiculous).


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

calmwinds said:


> (say, your FWS says "Oh, you forgot to pick up the _____ from the store on your way home" and you reply, "Well, at least I didn't stop and fvck a co-worker"). I think that's the kind of interaction being referred to (although the scenario is ridiculous).


It is, but by gawd I'd love to use that one day! :lol:


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

calmwinds said:


> I think the key words here are "dwell" and "constant". I do not interpret the above exerpts to mean "never". I believe what is being suggested is that the BS not throw it out there all the time. For instance, every day, for whatever reason, the BS makes venomous comments toward the FWS even when they are trying to R, or when disagreements come up, bringing it up (say, your FWS says "Oh, you forgot to pick up the _____ from the store on your way home" and you reply, "Well, at least I didn't stop and fvck a co-worker"). I think that's the kind of interaction being referred to (although the scenario is ridiculous).


It's Physics - to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. 

You f**ked some POS bloke multiple times and all the other stuff you did which you'd never do for me in 18 years well hey, guess what?

There are so many triggers now, my world's turned upside down, I'm humiliated beyond description, our children are suffering....you are just going to have to accept that from time to time I will let off steam without thinking about your feelings.

You know all about that darling.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Jasel said:


> Just because it's in a book doesn't mean you need to follow all the advice down to the letter. Use it as a guide to help you get through the process but try to be aware of YOUR needs (pun intended).


:iagree:

There's a difference between harping on it constantly and bringing it up in a constructive way. Any BS who throws what their WS did into their face every chance they get isn't going to have much happening in the way of R.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

mineforever said:


> LRgirl....well unfortunately inorder to R you have to forgive and that does mean you have to lay things to rest and put things in the past. Its like a wound...it will start to heal and scab over....but if you keep scratching off the scab and exposing the wound it has to start healing all over again. You can't heal until you lay it to rest and forgive and that means not bringing it up "throughing it in his face". If you truely want to reconcile you will realize that throughing "it" in his face is counter productive to "R". He can't start to forgive himself for letting you down until he knows you have forgiven him....so you have to start the process by forgiving him...you are still at step 1 if you have not truely forgiven him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't disagree, but I do disagree.

If I was a betrayer and wanted to reconcile and was truly set on making amends, if it helps my spouse, I'll talk about it anytime, anywhere and for as long as it takes. 

For some people, that is the best therapy.


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

As others have said it is how you talk about it. In the next book Love Busters and Surviving an Affair he goes on to talk about Disrespectful Judgement's as well as confronting problems head on so that they do not become resentments. My take on it is that what does a BS want? Do you want to be together or do you want to be apart? This is a basic premise of every discussion on affairs once you know what you want to do the programs become pretty straight forward. Lets look at this real quick.

Stay Together

Affairs do not happen in a vacuum they usually have something to do with a break down in the marriage and this is usually both parties fault. An affair is a catalyst event it makes an end to the old marriage without any judgements on where the parties will go. If both parties want to stay together than they will have to construct a NEW marriage once built on the new found knowledge which for many is just to much. To know beyond a shadow of a doubt that your spouse has conditions on their love and that they are willing and able to betray you on a fundamental level is usually a deal breaker for many. However if you chose to continue then you have to be willing to accept some hard facts.

1. Hurting the other person will not build a GOOD new marriage. This is pretty simple really hurting your spouse is not a good idea even if you are justified in doing it. Like the saying goes an eye for an eye leaves the world blind.

2. BS NEED to be able to talk about the affair.

3. Conversations about the affair should do with healing the damage for BOTH parties. A BS is in a lot of pain a remorseful WS is in a lot of pain. The conversations on the affair need to be focused on healing the damage not creating more damage. Lashing out, disrespectful judgement's, demeaning comments will not help either party. Instead open dialogue on the pain that the affair caused the breach in trust the steps that BS needs to have to move on will help heal the damage.

4. Set times where it is okay and expected to talk about it. When you leave it open to anytime many BS dwell on it they NEVER get beyond it instead it turns into a torture fest for the WS and the BS. You are choosing to wallow in one of the most painful times of your life. You are also forcing your WS to stay in perhaps the most painful moment of their life as well. Instead when a questions comes up write them down for your talk then move on.

5. You are choosing to stay in the marriage to try to create a NEW marriage with NEW experiences. By choosing to dwell on the affair you are not doing this. Instead you are choosing to stay at the moment of deepest pain.

Some can do the above others cannot some do a little of it and make it. The point being that continuing to damage your WS is not going to make them want to stay with you or create a NEW marriage instead they will indeed probably chose to leave many R's break down on this point. The BS feels deeply hurt and cannot get past it, cannot create new memories, cannot be okay with setting a time to come to terms with the affair. So the R fails. Although some make it without following any advice and against all odds.


Choose to Leave

This is a simple thing you detach. You can bring up the affair whenever and however you want and lash out against the other person. You can try to make it "even" for lack of a better word. You can rack up the verbal punches and rip through them as you are not going to have anything with them anymore. You don't want to create a NEW marriage with this person or new memories you have no desire to get beyond this so you can go nuclear.


I don't have a personal preference but the logic behind the step is sound from where I am standing the only thing that really needs to be decided is WHAT you want.

As for the MB forum they are a little cultish I have been over there as they do have some good advice and they do have MANY successful accounts. But like with anything you have to decide what you are willing to do and what you are okay with doing hence the point of both Plan A and Plan B.


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

His Needs Her Needs is not an affair book yes it touches on the subject however it is not geared toward that. Instead it is geared toward finding out what your needs are and what your partners needs are. The issue you are talking about is better covered in Surviving an Affair. As for the advice being useful to someone with a cheating spouse who is not willing to give up the AP. Well you should read the books as you are over simplifying the information and I am unwilling to go to that much depth in my post. Lets just say that both Plan A and Plan B work well if used correctly and there forum shows this but again the books explain themselves.

I think the major hang up is that His Needs Her Needs was written before they put out the other books you will also see it touches on Love Busters but does not go into a lot of detail. Once you read the series you have a better understanding of what they are talking about. Each book has a focus while they share a relationship with each other they can be read in any order as need arises. I personally think they are great books but not things to live your life by. You have to synthesize all the information you receive to get a complete picture. But to do that you have to read the books.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

michzz said:


> You presume I have not read the books. I'm not going to do a point -by- point analysis of them. I boiled it down to my interpretation of the book used by our MC as an affair recovery book.
> 
> Your interpretation is your own, as is mine. My experience using the book is why I have intruded in this thread.
> 
> And my comments remain valid to the OP.


With respect, perhaps it was the faulty assumption that your were "recovering" from an affair that caused the problems you experienced with HNHN? You're not actually _in_ recovery if there's still an active affair going on. _No_ marriage enhancement book is going to do much good unless and until any ongoing affairs have ended and both spouses have committed to trying to recover the marriage. 


OP, you may find that Dr. Harley's positions on some of the items you see in his books are better or further explained in the articles available on the Marriage Builders website. Not the forums, which are pretty scary and a little militant, but the actual website. 

From my readings, I think he's opposed to the BS continuing to bring up the affair and throw it in the WS's face in perpetuity. It's up to the BS who does decide to reconcile to eventually decide that they want a good marriage more than they want to keep sniping at their spouse for cheating. If you're going to have a good marriage (where both parties are in love with one another) going forward, that's just one of the things that has to stop happening at some point. However, he's also a huge proponent of having all the facts of the affair before you stop talking about it - snoop, insist on a written timeline that you verify, hire a PI, install GPS or keyloggers, get a polygraph, whatever it takes to feel you've gotten as much of the truth as you need. But if you do _choose_ to reconcile after having gained all the information you feel you need, you can't keep throwing your former WS's affair in their face in every disagreement for the rest of the marriage.


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

Thanks for all your replies, I will catch up hopefully later tonight or tomorrow and will reply properly.



Just wanted to quickly point out, My fwh literally takes what ever I throw at him..not physically obviously, and I know he allows this because he sees i'm still so very upset....and lashing out.

He let me down terribly and he knows this, he is as devastated as i am in realising what he has done to me/us. 

I can not see a day where it wont be in my head.......and on my mind...however i like that someone pointed out 5 years marker...that gives me some hope.

It actually took me 5 years to deal with a very traumatic death of my brother, and this cheating pain is on a parr with that pain of loss and grief.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

CEL said:


> As for the advice being useful to someone with a cheating spouse who is not willing to give up the AP. Well you should read the books as you are over simplifying the information and I am unwilling to go to that much depth in my post.


Over simplifying? I don't believe so. This quote came straight from Harley's website:

_Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to *negotiate* with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, and selfish demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a *negotiated settlement*, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.

On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.
_

I'm sorry, but I will never believe that respectful "negotiating" about no contact is a winning strategy.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

LRgirl said:


> He let me down terribly and he knows this, he is as devastated as i am in realising what he has done to me/us.
> 
> I can not see a day where it wont be in my head.......and on my mind...however i like that someone pointed out 5 years marker...that gives me some hope.


Betrayers need to understand (and a few do) that while they get over it and move on quickly enough it just isn't that easy for the betrayed. If they can get that, reconciliation becomes more possible.


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

badmemory said:


> Over simplifying? I don't believe so. This quote came straight from Harley's website:
> 
> _Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to *negotiate* with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, and selfish demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a *negotiated settlement*, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.
> 
> ...



Very simple question have you gone to their forum? Have you seen any threads on their forum talked to any of their counselors? Would you like me to quote from the books as well? Because in the forums the world over that has worked well. 

Here is mine. 

But I encourage most wives to separate after about three weeks if their husband is still in contact with his lover. My experience has taught me that the health of most women deteriorates quickly and significantly while living with an unfaithful husband. Men, on the other hand, tend to be able to weather the storm longer with fewer emotional or physical effects. I call the strategy of a complete separation Plan * B.

Harley, Willard F. Jr. (2011-02-01). His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage (p. 191). Baker Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. 

*So if it does not work or you just don't want to do it you SEPARATE until they do have no contact.*

When a betrayed spouse decides that it’s time to separate, I recommend complete separation with absolutely no direct contact (Plan * B). The unfaithful spouse should be given the choice of having contact with the betrayed spouse or the lover, but not both.

Harley, Willard F. Jr. (2011-02-01). His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage (p. 192). Baker Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. 

I am going to say this again then I am done with this thread as really I could care less if you like the books or agree with them. It is your life and if they don't help you that is great with me. But the specific book you are reviewing is for how to understand your spouses NEEDS "hence the name" the book on how to react to an affair is Surviving an Affair "hence it's name". And with that good luck.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

LR girl you are the world’s most imminent expert on the pain you feel. How much you can endure and for how long? Your husband has been given the gift of a second/third chance. Really there is no greater gift. You will have to reconcile that gift you have given him between logic and emotion.

It is reasonable to conclude your husband will come to the point of no return. If he feels no matter how much genuine effort he displays it will ultimately not be enough to heal your pain. If the heavy lifting he is doing is all he is capable of then that is all he is capable of. What will he do then ?

You will have to recognize its value or lack off for the future of your marriage. If it does not meet your expectations for reconciliation then what more needs to be said or asked? To dwell in this pain is clearly unhealthy. Through all your post’s your struggle continues.

I hope you find your strength and regain your sole and sense of self. It seems to me you must look for what you need from within and not from your husband.

I guess the simple question would be to your husband is….. Is this all you are truly capable of? I believe that if he has not been as forthcoming as he needs to be, withholding more information that he does not want to divulge then he will never be capable of giving all he can.

Your choice not his


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

just got it 55 said:


> LR girl you are the world’s most imminent expert on the pain you feel. How much you can endure and for how long? Your husband has been given the gift of a second/third chance. Really there is no greater gift. You will have to reconcile that gift you have given him between logic and emotion.
> 
> It is reasonable to conclude your husband will come to the point of no return. If he feels no matter how much genuine effort he displays it will ultimately not be enough to heal your pain. If the heavy lifting he is doing is all he is capable of then that is all he is capable of. What will he do then ?
> 
> ...


Hello 55

You hit the nail on the head I feel. Maybe he's doing all he can and it simply can't ever be enough for me now.

I do believe he is giving me all he can, and I believe he is doing all he can......to be fair he probably couldn't do much more in terms of affection etc.. looking after me and meeting almost all of my needs.

I can see clearly his regret and pain when he looks at me sometimes and it renders him speechless.

We have some great times together....and these 'arguments' are getting less frequent.

55, you wrote a letter / post here a while back to/ about your 'Angel' and it was so moving...you could be my H in that posting, only he isn't so good with his words. But the way he is with me now.......is your letter....knowing what you have in your 'Angel' now....I feel my H knows 'now' what he has in/with me.

Maybe, at the end of the day I am just one of those women who tries but can not live with this knowledge of betrayal by a man I worshiped and never in all my nightmares thought him able to treat me so poorly.

I have this deep need for conversation and my way of getting through anything is to talk, talk and talk some more....so when I trigger and say something to H, maybe ask him a question....I know his way through isn't to talk and open up a whole conversation on this painful topic....so he looks embarrassed and gives the quickest answer possible or denies something or other and gets back to making the dinner....leaving me feeling 'ignored' on this level. I walk away feeling like my question or conversation isn't being dealt with....so it doesn't go away, it wont go away until we deal with it.

Thanks for your words x


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

CEL said:


> As others have said it is how you talk about it. In the next book Love Busters and Surviving an Affair he goes on to talk about Disrespectful Judgement's as well as confronting problems head on so that they do not become resentments. My take on it is that what does a BS want? Do you want to be together or do you want to be apart? This is a basic premise of every discussion on affairs once you know what you want to do the programs become pretty straight forward. Lets look at this real quick.
> 
> Stay Together
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for taking the time to post this.

I know that I WANT to stay married to my FWH, and I can completely accept the logic of the counsel found in the book....it all makes sense, and I don't want to continue down this unhealthy path of lashing out.....so I will continue to read these books.

However, in life we can only do the best we can at any given moment, and I am trying really hard ....I know what the biggest problems are......

When I'm in pain i want my H to feel the pain he has caused me...so I lash out. (I know this is wrong but I still do it)

I bought the book 'his needs, her needs' back in May and asked my H to read it....he still has not. It annoys me that I have to keep on saying 'you need to read this'.....I guess what I'm trying to say is, shouldn't it be him who is pro active in this area? Shouldn't he be the one who wants to learn and understand....and at the very least shouldn't he read it just because it is important to me that he does!

I find it really hard to put into words where I feel I need help from him.....I need to see him meeting me half way at least on the talking issues...I feel my H is doing so much on a physical level to look after my needs and caring for me, he's affectionate and I know he's deeply sorry and regrets what he has done.....and we do talk and he allows me to talk and question but he is never forthcoming, I feel like i'm pulling teeth!

_summary of history_
He had 3 sexual encounters with 3 colleagues over a period of 6 years (between 2005 and 2011)....none of the encounters lead to intercourse, and none were EA or PA....more ONS I guess is the closest description we have. I found out about 1 incident in 2011 and he confessed to 2 others 2012 when I told him I'd booked a poly.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

LRgirl said:


> It actually took me 5 years to deal with a very traumatic death of my brother, and this cheating pain is on a parr with that pain of loss and grief.


In my opinion, that is because that person you were married to 'died' in a sense and took the marriage and what you thought was your life with them. They are dead. There is someone in their body walking around but it is not that same person and may never be again.

The grieving is important and sad. 1.5y I still have troubles but it's less. I don't think you can ever have that person you lost again, but I think it is possible for some to have a new relationship with the person if they are worth it. Good luck to you.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

LRgirl said:


> ...and I don't want to continue down this unhealthy path of lashing out.....so I will continue to read these books.


Many of us have commented about how the gym and the heavy bag have been so therapeutic. I'm all for lashing out... Weight and the heavy bag are great targets... People, not so much....


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

MovingAhead said:


> In my opinion, that is because that person you were married to 'died' in a sense and took the marriage and what you thought was your life with them. They are dead. There is someone in their body walking around but it is not that same person and may never be again.
> 
> The grieving is important and sad. 1.5y I still have troubles but it's less. I don't think you can ever have that person you lost again, but I think it is possible for some to have a new relationship with the person if they are worth it. Good luck to you.



Yes this was my case I was the "Walking Dead" for years. A cheater losses oneself and can take years to recover from. Guilt is a very powerful emotion paralyzing in fact. Once the fog has lifted ,when the realization that the betrayal you have committed it’s crippling.


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

I know that I WANT to stay married to my FWH, and I can completely accept the logic of the counsel found in the book....it all makes sense, and I don't want to continue down this unhealthy path of lashing out.....so I will continue to read these books.

However, in life we can only do the best we can at any given moment, and I am trying really hard ....I know what the biggest problems are......

When I'm in pain i want my H to feel the pain he has caused me...so I lash out. (I know this is wrong but I still do it)[/QUOTE]

Logic and the heart don't always agree when I was getting beat by my family I still loved him and did not want to cut them out of my life or report them. Logically I knew what was the best thing to do but I did not do it. It is okay to be that way just does not help the situation. That you SEE these behaviors as wrong and counter to your goal is a huge step forward, you understand that you need to get this out but you also see that the way you are expressing it is damaging an already shaky foundation. So the next step is a small one you set a boundary you will stop yourself from doing it ONE time today just that and only that. Don't think about the next step just once today you will not bring it up or you will write it down instead to be brought up tomorrow or this weekend. Just one angry outburst. If you don't have the need to lash out today then well you did good and succeeded maybe tomorrow you will start lashing out and stop just one insult short and instead write it down. Let him know what you are doing so when you stop go running for your journal he does not freak. LOL.




LRgirl said:


> I bought the book 'his needs, her needs' back in May and asked my H to read it....he still has not. It annoys me that I have to keep on saying 'you need to read this'.....I guess what I'm trying to say is, shouldn't it be him who is pro active in this area? Shouldn't he be the one who wants to learn and understand....and at the very least shouldn't he read it just because it is important to me that he does!
> 
> I find it really hard to put into words where I feel I need help from him.....I need to see him meeting me half way at least on the talking issues...I feel my H is doing so much on a physical level to look after my needs and caring for me, he's affectionate and I know he's deeply sorry and regrets what he has done.....and we do talk and he allows me to talk and question but he is never forthcoming, I feel like i'm pulling teeth!


This WHY he needs to read the damn books. I am sorry but you need to talk to him and lay it down. I don't care if he is busy, tired, stubborn or an alien if he wants a good marriage then he needs to do things different his way is what got you into this mess. A relationship is like a car we all think that we know how a good one looks and how to fix them but like a car you may know how to drive but you don't know jack about the motor. Without these books he has NO tools to work on making this a happy marriage for you but what he has cobbled together over the years. Would he take his car that recently had the engine on FIRE to a guy who said yeah I have driven for years I can fix it? Well then why does he think he knows the steps? Sit him down and lay out this curriculum for him.

His Needs Her Needs "Read in 1 Month break down the chapters to give him due dates every week"
Love Busters "1 month same as above"
5 Steps to Romantic Love "this is a workbook that focuses on the above two books"

If he balks tell him that just like he considers sex a necessary part of a relationship you consider him being wiling to read a book and work on the disaster of a marriage he helped create necessary. Be honest if he is unwilling to even read a few books then he is unwilling to put any effort into a successful R. The books above along with the work book go over a LOT of ground they will help build a NEW marriage. As for him not being forthcoming I don't know what are his reasons for being reluctant?



LRgirl said:


> Thank you so much for taking the time to post this.


My pleasure I would not of come back except for you post. I always look for you posts as you are one of the people who are top in my hopes.


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

55 it should be crippling...........what you did was very wrong.....it was selfish .........

Your lovely Angel carried on with the chores and the children....but you already know all this.

Just make every day count now......she deserves it! 


Xxx


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

LRgirl said:


> 55 it should be crippling...........what you did was very wrong.....it was selfish .........
> 
> Your lovely Angel carried on with the chores and the children....but you already know all this.
> 
> ...


I could not agree more except to add shameful


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

LRgirl said:


> I am currently reading this highly recommended book......and feel it is wisely and well written on the whole BUT.....
> 
> page 91, summary no. 10...However, I am struggling with this....
> 
> ...




The problem is once all the BS's questions about the affair has been answered. The WS has done all that is required of them for recovery. Continued talking about the affair keeps the affair fading into the past for the WS and the BS.

Can not heal constantly recalling the affair.

Just as a BS can not heal if all of their questions are not answered by their WS. Because trickle truth just keeps the BS wondering about the affair.

Unanswered questions can keep the affair on the BS's mind for years. I know of several BS's that have been haunted for over 30 years because they were denied the truth.


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

just got it 55 said:


> I could not agree more except to add shameful


The thing is 55, I sense, from PM and public posts that you are genuinely remorseful about what you have done in the past. 

It's such a shame people do such damage for selfish reasons and for the 'now' without giving the future and the past a second thought. What my H did has affected the past, present and future and there is not a thing I can do about it......

Shame we are not educated on the damage caused and the absolute devastation of infidelity of all kinds on those we love. Like many thins in life we don't realise the full horror until it hits us personally.

In some ways 55 I envy your Angel,her blessed ignorance.....that you made the necessary changes in yourself without her being crucified in your confession. I know you have wracked yourself over coming clean.......and I know many would condemn you for keeping it to yourself, but why cause her immense long term pain when you know it will never happen, ever gain.

Xx


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

CEL said:


> I know that I WANT to stay married to my FWH, and I can completely accept the logic of the counsel found in the book....it all makes sense, and I don't want to continue down this unhealthy path of lashing out.....so I will continue to read these books.
> 
> However, in life we can only do the best we can at any given moment, and I am trying really hard ....I know what the biggest problems are......
> 
> When I'm in pain i want my H to feel the pain he has caused me...so I lash out. (I know this is wrong but I still do it)


Logic and the heart don't always agree when I was getting beat by my family I still loved him and did not want to cut them out of my life or report them. Logically I knew what was the best thing to do but I did not do it. It is okay to be that way just does not help the situation. That you SEE these behaviors as wrong and counter to your goal is a huge step forward, you understand that you need to get this out but you also see that the way you are expressing it is damaging an already shaky foundation. So the next step is a small one you set a boundary you will stop yourself from doing it ONE time today just that and only that. Don't think about the next step just once today you will not bring it up or you will write it down instead to be brought up tomorrow or this weekend. Just one angry outburst. If you don't have the need to lash out today then well you did good and succeeded maybe tomorrow you will start lashing out and stop just one insult short and instead write it down. Let him know what you are doing so when you stop go running for your journal he does not freak. LOL.




This WHY he needs to read the damn books. I am sorry but you need to talk to him and lay it down. I don't care if he is busy, tired, stubborn or an alien if he wants a good marriage then he needs to do things different his way is what got you into this mess. A relationship is like a car we all think that we know how a good one looks and how to fix them but like a car you may know how to drive but you don't know jack about the motor. Without these books he has NO tools to work on making this a happy marriage for you but what he has cobbled together over the years. Would he take his car that recently had the engine on FIRE to a guy who said yeah I have driven for years I can fix it? Well then why does he think he knows the steps? Sit him down and lay out this curriculum for him.

His Needs Her Needs "Read in 1 Month break down the chapters to give him due dates every week"
Love Busters "1 month same as above"
5 Steps to Romantic Love "this is a workbook that focuses on the above two books"

If he balks tell him that just like he considers sex a necessary part of a relationship you consider him being wiling to read a book and work on the disaster of a marriage he helped create necessary. Be honest if he is unwilling to even read a few books then he is unwilling to put any effort into a successful R. The books above along with the work book go over a LOT of ground they will help build a NEW marriage. As for him not being forthcoming I don't know what are his reasons for being reluctant?



My pleasure I would not of come back except for you post. I always look for you posts as you are one of the people who are top in my hopes. [/QUOTE]


Hi Cel, how did I miss this post? Sorry for delay in reply. (I only get on here about once a week!) I really do appreciate your help and time.

A week on and he is reading the book, we have talked more, we have both cried more.....

I feel as though he obviously doesn't want to bring it up, as he doesn't want to rock the boat when the days are good, that is understandable, but who knows why he seemed reluctant to read the book in the first place...any how he is reading it now, we both are. He has tremendous guilt, which he should have!

I think what narks me so much is seeing him go about his day happy.....it isn't like i don't want him to be happy, and i know BS will understand what I mean when I say, seeing him happy when i'm sad pees me off!! Some days I want/need to see his guilt.....I want / need to him remorseful......not just when I'm upset and kind of demanding the reaction. Not sure i make sense really :scratchhead:

We are doing really good, on the whole, he has changed so much over the past 2 years.....only problem is he still finds it hard to talk feelings....and one of our issues is this. So hopefully by reading 'HSHN' he will fully realise how very important this is for me.

Hope you are well? x


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Your problem is your WWH isn't giving you the chance to heal because he can't keep it in his pants. 

I'm pretty sure if you didn't have a DD2 9 months ago you would be in a better place today. Maybe not much better, but better off then feeling that you need to start the fidelity clock all over again because he fvcked up 9 months ago.

Some people are just such heartless savages..


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

There is a big difference between constantly throwing someone's mistake in their face and bringing up issues you still have with their affair trying to get over it.
I should never have to remind her of the mistake she made if she truly wants to reconcile she will suffer(guilt) as much as I do and be sympathetic to my pain and we will heal together.


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

Hardtohandle said:


> Your problem is your WWH isn't giving you the chance to heal because he can't keep it in his pants.
> 
> I'm pretty sure if you didn't have a DD2 9 months ago you would be in a better place today. Maybe not much better, but better off then feeling that you need to start the fidelity clock all over again because he fvcked up 9 months ago.
> 
> Some people are just such heartless savages..


I agree with you that my H should have come clean on all counts when i first confronted him.....but he was convinced we would be over....there and then, that very day.....to be honest, we probably would have been because by dd2 i had seen the change in him.....he'd had changed so much and was already doing all the heavy work., but I know what you are saying.

If he had ever cheated in any way since my discovering infidelity then he'd be gone, no second chances in that respect. 

I think once my H saw the devastating reality of what he'd done to me / us, he wont ever cheat on us again. 

I will never trust 100% again, not ever, not any one.....but as much as I can trust another human, I trust him as much as I can trust.

But I wont be taking any chances either way.....I'll be ever watchful, and never naive or take trust for granted ever again, no matter where I end up, whom ever I end up with.

Wish I'd read a little about His needs, her needs when I fist got married.....it should be prevention, not cure.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

LRgirl,

How are you doing? I know you said your husband was reading the boards before... Has this stopped? Is he learning anything?


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

MovingAhead said:


> LRgirl,
> 
> How are you doing? I know you said your husband was reading the boards before... Has this stopped? Is he learning anything?


Hi, he does pop in and read the boards from time to time.....I can see if I click on his profile when he was last here  

But maybe not so often, its a shame as I feel it would offer him some insight if he posted as well as read. he does come here when we have a bad day I have noticed.

He is reading the book now (HN,HN).....but watch this space.....because I feel he reads the book or reads at TAM when i'm triggering and making life hard, and when wife is happy, he's happy and so why bother! 

Hope you are ok?


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

LR Girl If he cannot express himself, his actions will mean much more than his words. For years I tried to tell my angel how much I love and cared for her and our family. But I did this through sacrificing everything for myself to give to them.

I excluded myself from many events because I simply felt I did not deserve to be there with them. So I made sure I “had” to work and it was unavoidable. In hindsight this was more damaging to our relationship.

D


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

just got it 55 said:


> LR Girl If he cannot express himself, his actions will mean much more than his words. For years I tried to tell my angel how much I love and cared for her and our family. But I did this through sacrificing everything for myself to give to them.
> 
> I excluded myself from many events because I simply felt I did not deserve to be there with them. So I made sure I “had” to work and it was unavoidable. In hindsight this was more damaging to our relationship.
> 
> D


I hope to learn so much from former waywards here on TAM, and you 55 in particular always lend a hand in helping me look from the fws vantage point.

My H is somewhat a paradox .......he's very emotional and affectionate, in need of affection _and yet_ he struggles so much to talk about his feelings. So now in trying to make things up to me he showers me with affection, looks after me like I'm a Princess....he would do anything for me, and yet still he has issues with sharing his honest true feelings with me.

Hope this will change.....we talk about everything else, we are best of friends.


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

*Hi Cel, how did I miss this post? Sorry for delay in reply. (I only get on here about once a week!) I really do appreciate your help and time.

A week on and he is reading the book, we have talked more, we have both cried more.....

I feel as though he obviously doesn't want to bring it up, as he doesn't want to rock the boat when the days are good, that is understandable, but who knows why he seemed reluctant to read the book in the first place...any how he is reading it now, we both are. He has tremendous guilt, which he should have!

I think what narks me so much is seeing him go about his day happy.....it isn't like i don't want him to be happy, and i know BS will understand what I mean when I say, seeing him happy when i'm sad pees me off!! Some days I want/need to see his guilt.....I want / need to him remorseful......not just when I'm upset and kind of demanding the reaction. Not sure i make sense really :scratchhead:

We are doing really good, on the whole, he has changed so much over the past 2 years.....only problem is he still finds it hard to talk feelings....and one of our issues is this. So hopefully by reading 'HSHN' he will fully realise how very important this is for me.

Hope you are well?*

I am doing well all things considered. I know what you mean by talking about their feeling my SO when asked how she is doing it is always a monotone "okay or happy" nothing further it is like pulling teeth to get more out of her. LOL. She is very introverted and I am an information junky that is how I deal with people find out what they want and then tailor my behavior to that profile. I know that is seriously fvcked up and I am working on it but in a relationship you kind of need to know what is going on and she is kind of closed down. Now I don't think she does this on purpose it is just her personality. 

You want him to be hurting because you are hurting that is a very human response and makes complete sense. In the future you have to be able to see beyond that response I think you will get there but it will take time. Until you can get to the place where the logic and the heart are one you will continue to be in a self destructive cycle. The more he hurts the more the marriage hurts the more you hurt the more the marriage hurts. You will eventually get to the place where this is not the central concept of your marriage.

I sometimes get the feeling that people are trying to fix a marriage after the fact. When in fact the affair and destructive behaviors in the past made it beyond fixing. It is the difference between seeing a house where the framework is still good and a house that is rotten and needs to be torn down. After an affair the bones are rotten their is no going back to the way it was. The books and I do recommend both Love Busters and 5 Steps to Romantic Love "that last one is a workbook you go through together" gives you a new framework. A new way to spend time together, a new way to talk, a new way to see each others needs, a new way to respond to conflict, it gives you new bones to work on. This helps couples get a new start and feel a sense of closure to the old marriage. With that closure comes some healing.

He may benefit from some books on how to express emotions he may be only used to expressing it physically and has no idea how to express it verbally. Many people especially guys are this way. They express it through actions not words but this is counter to how most women need it expressed. I know there are books out there that deal with expressing your emotional landscape.


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