# Need Advise on WAW who wants to work it out



## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Most of you know my story. A week ago my wife contacted me via email to ask if I was still in a hurry to file the divorce. (since she is the one who left I told her to she needed to pay).

She said she didn't know if she could afford it until February. I told her I didn't really care because I was seeing someone else and they had no problem with me being seperated.

That's when everything changed.. she called my cell phone within 15 minutes of my email.. During the course of the conversation she wanted to know all these details about the new girl..

Then she started crying saying she was jealous of me because I was able to move on 'physically' and she wasn't. I asked her if she was crying and she tried to play it off, but it was obvious.

I asked her what she wanted. She tried to give vague answers. So I blunted asked, " Do you want to work this out." She finally said yes and asked if we could meet afterwork.

We met and she explained that when I told her I was seeing someone else her walls came down and a rush of emotions overcame her.

I told her that my impression was that it hit her that I was about to ride off into the sunset and the guy you love was about to leave your life forever. She agreed... I told her I believed that she was only trying to work it out so she could 'reclaim' her territory. She agreed.. (as I have explained in previous posts, she is very stubborn, jealous, insecure, etc)

She said she tried to date other guys during our seperation and was always comparing them to me and was trying to find another one of me... and she can't.

Anyway, as you know she always runs to her xh for emotional support.. he wants her back desperately and even offered her half his house if she would move back in. She told me she can't do it because she doesn't love him and knows she would just be faking it.

I believe her because if she reallly did want him she would be with him, hands down. 

I can tell she wants me, but we have so many issues we need to address in counseling it will be some time before we share a roof again.

She also asked me if I would forget about this other woman. I told her 'NO'. I told her that her x has always been in the background and even though she will do the NC with him for months on end and even sent him a letter, he is always there if she calls (they have been friends since for over 38 yrs.)

I told her that I am no longer going to be an island and that if she walks out again, that I will initiate contact with the OW and will not give this another chance. This may not be right, but I feel that turn about is fare play.

Anyway, here is what I need. It appears at this point I hold all the cards.. how do I keep the upper hand so she doesn't try to dominate me with her BPD/NPD personality traits.

She is scared to date because of the 2 guys she went out with 1 had ED and the other after 2 dates left a vulgar message on her cell that scared her..

She spent last weekend with me and she was more intimate than she has ever been in the 3 years we have been together. 

How do I keep the upper hand?


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Ostera said:


> Most of you know my story. A week ago my wife contacted me via email to ask if I was still in a hurry to file the divorce. (since she is the one who left I told her to she needed to pay).
> 
> She said she didn't know if she could afford it until February. I told her I didn't really care because I was seeing someone else and they had no problem with me being seperated.
> 
> ...


You do some soul searching and identify what you are and are not OK with in terms of your relationship with her.

When you do. Share it with her in a calm, cool, and dispassionate way.

These are your boundaries. 

Stick to them and she won't be able to steam roll you like she has in the past.

A word of caution. She will try to push you off your new center. Likely even more aggressively than before.

If you cave, you will be well on your way to door mat status once again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Reminds me of dogs that chase firetrucks. They wouldn't know what they'd do with one if they caught it.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

spun said:


> You do some soul searching and identify what you are and are not OK with in terms of your relationship with her.
> 
> When you do. Share it with her in a calm, cool, and dispassionate way.
> 
> ...



Thanks Spun... good point about trying to push me off center. She did try something this weekedn to test my boundaries and I immediately addressed it and told her that what she did was no longer acceptable. She backed off immediately.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> Reminds me of dogs that chase firetrucks. They wouldn't know what they'd do with one if they caught it.


Can you expand on tihs thought?


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Ahhh the old 'I don't want you but don't want anyone else to have you' ploy

She's already admitted wanting to 'reclaim her territory' (I mean why doesn't she just pee on you right?)

There is far too much dysfunction in this relationship for you to think about working it out in my opinion but it's up to you. What do you want? Do you really want her back? What about this other woman, how do you feel about her?


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Ostera,

I'm sorry but you have already given her the upper hand. Here's the issues I see that you have rased already:

1- she was jealous of me because I was able to move on 'physically' and she wasn't. - She wants you because she can't have you. This won't last once she has you back
2 - So I blunted asked, " Do you want to work this out." She finally said yes and asked if we could meet afterwork - She made YOU ask for this! She's manipulating you already!
3 - it hit her that I was about to ride off into the sunset and the guy you love was about to leave your life forever. She agreed. Again, she wants what she can't have now that her little make believe world hasn't turned out like she thought!
4 - I believed that she was only trying to work it out so she could 'reclaim' her territory. She agreed.. 
5 - she always runs to her xh for emotional support - With 38 years of history, I highly doubt this will change!
6 - She's BPD/NPD 
7 - She is scared to date 
8 - She spent last weekend with me and she was more intimate than she has ever been in the 3 years we have been together. So how long do you think this will last?

So really, all I see is negatives with this woman. You know what you've already seen with her and yet you want to ride this crazy ride AGAIN and toss aside a perfectly good new woman that you're attracted to?? Can I ask WHY?


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Dollystanford said:


> Ahhh the old 'I don't want you but don't want anyone else to have you' ploy
> 
> She's already admitted wanting to 'reclaim her territory' (I mean why doesn't she just pee on you right?)
> 
> There is far too much dysfunction in this relationship for you to think about working it out in my opinion but it's up to you. What do you want? Do you really want her back? What about this other woman, how do you feel about her?


The other woman is nice to me, is sexual, is attractive, gainfully employed, owns her own home, is attentive, etc.... however, I don't have that 'feeling' with her. I am not drawn to her like I am my wife.

You are mostly correct in your IDWUBIDWAOETHU. I think she liked the idea that is was just sitting there. When she found out I could potentially be gone she panicked.

When we met after work on the day of the emails she said she knew deep down she wanted me, but that she was trying to mask those feeiling by trying to find someone else..

She also said that she knew she didn't want the divorce or she would have filed back in September because she has the money. Which is true.. she could have afforded the divorce at anytime.. she kept postponing it... I know we have this connection that will last forever, even if we end up divorced... it's something I can't explain.

We do have a lot of dysfunction. We have a long way to go with counseling and learning to treat each other with more respect. 

Do I really want her back? Actually, Yes. Why? It's hard to express the feelings I have when I am with her or think of her.. She isn't always off the hook.. We have great times and conversation. Which I have with this other woman.. but I don't feel the emotional connection with the OW... 

Dolly, I appreciate your input... and I agree about the dysfunctional aspect of this. There are many things I didn't do right in this relationship also. Her kids are a big issue with sucking money out of her.. She has told me time and again to not get involved.

Blood it thicker than water and I lose in that arena every time.. I always try to defend her when the kids are taking advantage of her.. she doesn't want me to shield her from this.. so I need to learn not to care.. it's her money, let her do what she wants with it.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Toffer said:


> Ostera,
> 
> I'm sorry but you have already given her the upper hand. Here's the issues I see that you have rased already:
> 
> ...




Your points are valid and I am glad you pointed them out. I need an outsider to see these things.. however, regarding the OW,, that's the problem.. I am not 'emotionally' attracted to her. She is pretty on a physical level. But something is missing and it's not one of those 'maybe you could love her in time' things. It's just not there.

I will take your points listed above to heart.. you are right, regarding the working it out part.. she did say she wouldn't come out and say it because she knew that is what I wanted the here, even though that is what she wanted.. she did make me SAY it.. it's her classic stubborness. 

She can't stand to show weakness. It makes her feel vulnerable, which she very much is.. Thanks for pointing these things out.

Like I said, I am going to attempt this knowing full well there is no guarantees... I need advice/observations like this above so I can see the manipulatons better.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

O,

I think the important issue here is that both Dolly and I (two people who don't know you and don't know each other outside of TAM) see very much the same issues here. Your WAW has TONS of issues and she only wants you back because you're with someone else now.

However, it seems that you want to look past all her issues because you love her. I get that but know that you're minimizing her issues like her controlling behavior but giving it a more "cutesy" name like "stubborness" does not change what it is.

I also wnated to point out a few other things from your responses:

"She also said that she knew she didn't want the divorce or she would have filed back in September because she has the money"

Could also be that she wanted to keep you as her back-up plan knowing how much you love her. Since her "new" life of dating and screwing other guys didn't work out, she wants to fall back into her old ways with someone (you) who will put up with her sh!t

Your step-kids will alsways be a huge source of conflict in your marriage. Remember this!

"She can't stand to show weakness. It makes her feel vulnerable" 

Sorry but again I see this more as an aspect of her controlling nature

As for the other woman you're dating, I get that you haven't made an emotional connectio with her. You're obvious still carrying alot of baggage (and love) for your WAW. That's normal. What you have to remember is that there are tons of other women out there who would love to get with a guy like you and I'm sure that you'd connect with one or more of them if you give it a proper chance. You haven't healed from the gaping hole your WAW left in your heart when she left. That takes time.

Look, you remind me of my brother. He and his wife divorced only to get back together, have a kid, get remarried and divorce again. Someone once said to me (about them) that it was obvious that they loved each other, they just couldn't live together. Sounds like you two.

Another confusing aspect is that you say she didn't file because she didn't want to but earlier you said it was because she couldn't afford to until February. Which is it? Could it be that she's starting to realize the cost of divorce and living life on her own will cramp her style?

Sorry O but I think you're setting yourself up for more heartache with this one.

However, if your sure you want to entertain this whole scenario again, what I would suggest is a compromise. Divorce her, date her and see where it goes OR tell her that you'll consider NOT divorcing her if she'll take a polygraph and answer any questions you have that led up to her leaving. Personally, I think she's hiding a possible affair

Sorry to be so blunt but something seems off here.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Ostera said:


> regarding the OW,, that's the problem.. I am not 'emotionally' attracted to her. She is pretty on a physical level. But something is missing and it's not one of those 'maybe you could love her in time' things. It's just not there.


Perhaps you are not emotionally attached to OW because you are still emotionally attached to your DS. 

Step back and work on you. If DS wants you back... let her beg without you saying anything first. Then re-evaluate.


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## jmb123 (Nov 9, 2012)

"When we met after work on the day of the emails she said she knew deep down she wanted me, but that she was trying to mask those feeiling by trying to find someone else.."

I do not think this is true.she needs you now perhaps,she perhaps does not want you;

I might be wrong though;


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Just b/c you don't feel anything with the OW doesn't mean you need to jump right in and give your WW a chance!!

She saw you were moving on and can't stand it. Thats it. Thats the only reason she is begging you back. She wants you as plan B and saw you were moving on with your life.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Toffer said:


> O,
> 
> I think the important issue here is that both Dolly and I (two people who don't know you and don't know each other outside of TAM) see very much the same issues here. Your WAW has TONS of issues and she only wants you back because you're with someone else now.
> 
> ...


Okay, lets back up a minute.. I know on TAM every WW is off banging everything they can get their hands on.. my wife truly isn't like that.. she doesn't do ONS.. Her MO is exactly how we got together..

We knew each other for 3+ years before we got together.. in that time she got to know me.. when we actaully started dating it was 6 weeks before we went to bed.. That is how she operates... she's not a, "Hi, want to go to bed?" type.. You'll have to trust me on this...

The guys she dated immediately wanted sex.. she doesn't put herself out like that.. I am sure that if they would have played their cards right she would have slept with them, don't get me wrong...

The issue is guys my age (50) and over don't usually play the 'slow' game. They make a move, and usually too quick. I have many friends like this and they either get the ONS or they blow the relationship.. 

The part about not being able to afford it was a ploy, plain and simple. We hadn't contacted each other in a few weeks.. her email was a 'reach out' to just communicate on some level with me... I forgot to mention the day before the email I saw on my phone that she called me at 3:30 in the morning but left no message.. she later said that she couldn't sleep and was thinking of me.. 

So basicallly, her email was to initiate some kind of contact just so I would contact her... She makes 80K a year so money isn't her issue and I know this... She doesn't need money.

She left for a very good reason.. our marriage spun out of control. Due to our issues, i started drinking and the arguments started to escalate. She can't handle stress like that. 

If you recall in my previous post she was shot at work some years back.. In her mind if a situation gets heated she interprets that as something that is going to escalate to violence (PTSD).

We needed this break to regroup.. We both are aware that counseling is a must, both on the IC level and MC level.

She isn't hiding an affair. If she was seeing someone she would tell me.. she's that way.. her stressers are so high she can't keep anything from me. 

I know TAM believes that 100% of WAW are 100% having sex with everyone in the city they live in.. This isn't the case with the wife... she 's got to get to know you.. THEN she will sleep with you.. The guys she's met aren't very subtle about what they want and it scares her off.


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## jmb123 (Nov 9, 2012)

ok. so when you know this and are sure of it,then why are we here?


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

That may be the case

But actually that's beside the point. She's the one 'crying because she can't move on physically' yes? So actually what she's doing is reverting to what is comfortable and what she knows. That in itself is a dangerous game to play. 

You've already talked yourself out of being interested in this new woman so when the WW says to you 'will you forget about her' and you say 'no'....why not? Because you're using her as a tool to keep your wife on her toes. Just as she uses her exh to keep you on her toes

This is why I feel it would be unhealthy to go back.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

jmb123 said:


> ok. so when you know this and are sure of it,then why are we here?


Originally I wanted to know how to keep the upper hand until we can wade through this mess.. 

Toffer pointed out some insightful things in his post.. I need to remember this. I am trying to see if she has the ability to change and the DESIRE to change.

I don't want to go back to the NPD model I was stuck in. She is more than willing to go to counseling.

We have done that before but didn't stick to it very long. 

I can say that she has improved a lot since the beginning of our relationship. That is why I am will to try. 

When I compare the 'then' and 'now' she doesn't do a lot of the things she used to.. I interpret that as there is hope..

If it doesn't work then it doens't work... 

I asked for advise on keeping one step ahead.


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## jmb123 (Nov 9, 2012)

I do not think you shall get lame validations here for what you assume!
Also, why focus on seeing whether your wife has chnaged or not,why not look inside you.This way you shall never be uncertain of yourself and noone shall be able to fool you.
I hope you get insightful replies here from other posters.all the best.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> Just b/c you don't feel anything with the OW doesn't mean you need to jump right in and give your WW a chance!!
> 
> She saw you were moving on and can't stand it. Thats it. Thats the only reason she is begging you back. She wants you as plan B and saw you were moving on with your life.


Bride, you could very well be right and I am aware of this.. We have agreed to counseling and to not live together for at least a year.

That will give us time to evaluate what we want, and where we want to go. If she really isn't into it, she won't hang around.

Either way, she has her place (and her 30 yr old son is living there) and I have my place.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

jmb123 said:


> I do not think you shall get lame validations here for what you assume!
> Also, why focus on seeing whether your wife has chnaged or not,why not look inside you.This way you shall never be uncertain of yourself and noone shall be able to fool you.
> I hope you get insightful replies here from other posters.all the best.


I am not attempting to get lame validations.. that is why I posted.. I also am not seeing things through rose colored glasses.

The hard part of posting here is it would take me weeks and pages and pages to get all the dynamics of this written out.

It much more complicated than, " I came home and my wife was in bed with my best friend."

Those scenerios are pretty much staight forward.

My wife didn't leave for OM.... This forum is about Separation or Divorce.. not Infidelity.

Sorry that everyone jumps to that conclusion right of the top.

We have issues, deep ones. I believe she wants this to work but doesn't know how (hence the counseling). She has a lot of childhood issues from her mother putting her down, and the MIL continues to this day.

Let me give a quick one... My MIL can't cook at all.. so my wife never learned that skill very well... My wife made Thankgiving turkey and my MIL complained the whole time about how dry it was. 

Then she made snide comments about my wifes weight.. and then started on my wife's daughter about her parenting skills.

To this day my wife still has to put up with these emotional scares. 

That's just one aspect of her emotional issues.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Dollystanford said:


> That may be the case
> 
> But actually that's beside the point. She's the one 'crying because she can't move on physically' yes? So actually what she's doing is reverting to what is comfortable and what she knows. That in itself is a dangerous game to play.
> 
> ...


I won't deny what you said one bit.. the OW isn't in love with me.. We are more like friends with benefits.

I hate to say this but in the past when I employ what my wife does against her.. she usually knocks off what she is doing because she realizes how it feels.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

O,

I didn't mean to offend you with my remarks about a possible affair and please keep in mind I did say possibel. I am aware that there are also many true WAWs and husbands out there. It does happen.

"I don't want to go back to the NPD model I was stuck in. She is more than willing to go to counseling"

If so, this is something she should have started ALREADY because she knows how you feel about it. Wouldn't her appeal about getting back together have been more attractive if she had said......"and I've been in counseling for a whle now working on my issues...."

"We have done that before but didn't stick to it very long"

This just reinforces what i mentioned above.

So, don't you see that her lie about not being able to afford the divorce until Feb was yet ANOTHER attempt to control and manipulate you? I'm afraid that you're seeing it as an attempt by her to demonstrate love for you. It wasn't. It was another attempt by her to get what SHE wants. That's it

Your request on how "to keep ahead" of her is a little concerning too. after reading most posts here, I think that most responders are of the same thought that I am, Why? Sems like a afwul lot of work for a very needy individual. Also, you shouldn't be trying to keep ahead of her. You should be deciding if you want to reconcile with her 100% or not. Your gut is telling you something but you don't want to acknowledge it completely. What is it saying to you?

You've said it yourself that's she changed right? Again, not that i want to harp on this but why not ask her if she's be willing to do a poly to at least maybe find out why she REALLY walked away from you? It's not until you get to the truth that the two of you will have any kind of real shot at fixing this.

She's crahed and burned at least two possible relationships since you've split up. What does that tell you? Her reaction to a polygraph request could be very telling


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Ostera said:


> I don't want to go back to the NPD model I was stuck in. She is more than willing to go to counseling.
> 
> We have done that before but didn't stick to it very long.


The problem with BPD and NPD is that a little counseling is usually not going to fix it. It will most likely always be there on some level and could take years to see real improvement. But many BPD/NPDers do not stick with it that long, because it gets really, really hard and they are just not self aware enough or feel too unworthy to change. 

You say she is more than willing to go to counseling. If she is, she would be in IC already. MC won't fix anything unless she is 100% committed to her own IC... for as long as it takes. 

As far as having sex with other men... realize that sex is not necessary for an affair. If she is running away from you and going to her ExH's house for solace - she is having an affair. That is cheating. Period. And it must also be dealt with or it will repeat.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Toffer said:


> "I don't want to go back to the NPD model I was stuck in. She is more than willing to go to counseling"
> 
> If so, this is something she should have started ALREADY because she knows how you feel about it. Wouldn't her appeal about getting back together have been more attractive if she had said......"and I've been in counseling for a whle now working on my issues...."





zillard said:


> The problem with BPD and NPD is that a little counseling is usually not going to fix it. It will most likely always be there on some level and could take years to see real improvement. But many BPD/NPDers do not stick with it that long, because it gets really, really hard and they are just not self aware enough or feel too unworthy to change.
> 
> You say she is more than willing to go to counseling. If she is, she would be in IC already. MC won't fix anything unless she is 100% committed to her own IC... for as long as it takes.


:iagree:

You guys hit it on the head.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> You guys hit it on the head.


I do know how you feel O. My X also has many BPD/NPD traits. It's still unclear whether she has the full-fledged conditions or just learned behaviors from her BPD/NPD mother and childhood. 

She has been insistent about her need and commitment to IC for months now but has only gone to one IC session. She did sign up for another this week but only after being prodded to do so by my daughter's IC... in front of me. 

Now I receive multiple emails from her saying, See - I'm working on my issues and going to counseling. She's telling me what she thinks I want to hear. But if she is going to IC to prove something to me... it won't last. 

It has to be from her, for her.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

zillard said:


> I do know how you feel O. My X also has many BPD/NPD traits. It's still unclear whether she has the full-fledged conditions or just learned behaviors from her BPD/NPD mother and childhood.
> 
> She has been insistent about her need and commitment to IC for months now but has only gone to one IC session. She did sign up for another this week but only after being prodded to do so by my daughter's IC... in front of me.
> 
> ...



Mine is looking currently for one on Saturdays.. I didn't have to prod her.

Here is the deal an it also involves her adult son, who is one aspect of our issues.

When she moved out she moved within walking distance of her job (and I mean she literally walks across the street and is on her job site). Her son moved in with her because the area is an industrial area and not really the nicest.. anyway, she gave him her car which she just paid off this month so he can get to his work..

So she has no tramsportation during the week.. Hence the need to find a counselor on Saturdays when she can use the car.

Trust me, between her irresponsible kids and our issues it's almost a comedy.. 

She is taking the initiative.. I just not as simple as I would like it.. My wife tends to find ways to complicate things.. I am not even going to questo\ion why she doesn't make him grow up.. he falls on his face everytime he's on his own.. 

I mentioned that he would live with her the rest of his life if she let him and she said, 'probably, but that's not going to happen. I don't want to live with my kids." 

We'll see.


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## BC3 (Sep 26, 2012)

My ex wife did the same thing that your WAW is doing. My ex left me for her former boyfriend she was with for 5 years prior to our 6 year relationship/marriage. 6 weeks after she moved out I went on a date with a co worker. The picture of her and myself wound up on facebook on this group date we were on. 


My ex saw this, and all of a sudden wanted me back. She didn't want to work on things until this happened. I offered MC, and to do whatever it would take to work things out...she wasn't having it until she saw me with this other woman.


The moment she sees me with another woman...BOOM! She wanted me back. I didn't take her back at that point. Actually the main reason I didn't give her a chance at that point is because the divorce was just about finalized. We just needed a judge to sign the paperwork. 


I had paid her the money I had to (maritial equity and some lawyers fees) and didn't want to work on things at this point and stop the divorce. I didn't trust her being that I was financially off the hook at that point. I didn't want to try to work on things...have them not work, and lose the money I had already paid her and have to redo all the documents again. 

Anyway I told her I'd be willing to try to work on things after the D is final, she said no...end of story. She is gone forever and good riddence. Mine came back too the moment she saw me with someone else, not because she loved me, but because she saw her plan B leaving.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

BC3 said:


> My ex wife did the same thing that your WAW is doing. My ex left me for her former boyfriend she was with for 5 years prior to our 6 year relationship/marriage. 6 weeks after she moved out I went on a date with a co worker. The picture of her and myself wound up on facebook on this group date we were on.
> 
> 
> My ex saw this, and all of a sudden wanted me back. She didn't want to work on things until this happened. I offered MC, and to do whatever it would take to work things out...she wasn't having it until she saw me with this other woman.
> ...


Could be.. mine didn't leave because of someone else.. mine left due to the constant turmoil in the house.. 

She tried to date about a month and a half out.. but, she saw what the guys wanted and she's not one to hop in anyones bed. She needs to get to know you and most guys don't want to invest the time.

We aren't 30 somethings.. she more conservative than that. 

But I get your point... mine couldn't find anyone and the one she wanted was moving on... 

Her issues are way deeper than most of the stories I have read on TAM..

Most stories are pretty cut and dried.... This one has too many facets to pigeon hole it.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Everybodies issues and situations are more complex than they seem on here. I doubt anybody writes about everything. 

As far as you waw getting help - where there's a will there's a way. Sounds to me like her son is using her as a crutch and she's using him as an excuse. Not to say it's all consciously, mind you. 

But yes, that's an outside perspective. Which is what u wanted, right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

zillard said:


> Everybodies issues and situations are more complex than they seem on here. I doubt anybody writes about everything.
> 
> As far as you waw getting help - where there's a will there's a way. Sounds to me like her son is using her as a crutch and she's using him as an excuse. Not to say it's all consciously, mind you.
> 
> ...


Zillard, yes to outside perspective.. yes to the son using her, not as a crutch,, ,more like a bank account.

She isn't using him as an excuse.. she is enabling him not to be responsible.. we have argued constantly over his irresponsibilities... 

She feels guilty on how he was raised and so she enables him and allows him to be irresponsible. Somehow she see it as 'making' it up to him for how he was raised.. meanwhile he knows how to play mom like a fiddle.. If I step in, she runs to his aide... 

This will all be discuseed in depth in counseling.. She knows she is enabling him, but her guilty won't allow her to stop..


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Ostera said:


> Zillard, yes to outside perspective.. yes to the son using her, not as a crutch,, ,more like a bank account.
> 
> She isn't using him as an excuse.. she is enabling him not to be responsible.. we have argued constantly over his irresponsibilities...
> 
> ...


And if you take her back without her proving she is ready and commited first, you will be enabling her to not be responsible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

zillard said:


> And if you take her back without her proving she is ready and commited first, you will be enabling her to not be responsible.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are absolutely correct. I have enabled her in the past. That is why we aren't going to live together while we attempt the R. We agreed to not live together this year. I am fine with that.. that way I have my place and she has hers.

Plus this is helping me in that fact I have never lived by myself for any length of time since I was nineteen.. between the Army, roommates, girlfriends or wives I pretty much have had someone living in the same apt/house 99% of my adult life. 

The car thing really urks me.. she moved right across the street from her job.. she son needed a car so she gave him hers. 

That is why she is attempting to find Saturday counseling. She goes to work from 8-5 M-F.. He works 10:30 to 8 PM... so weekday counseling won't work.. I work the same schedule she does.. We are too far apart for me to be able to get off work, go get her and attend a session at night, unless someone know of Midnight counseling where we live.

Anyway, I am aware of a lot of things I did wrong as far as not having appropriate boundaries, the way I handled issues when we argued, etc. 

I am becoming more aware when people point out things i didn't see because I am on the inside looking out.

I believe she does want a successful relationship, she just needs to bury the baggage from her past to get there...


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Ostera said:


> The car thing really urks me.. she moved right across the street from her job.. she son needed a car so she gave him hers.
> 
> That is why she is attempting to find Saturday counseling.


Her 30 yo son has a job and is living with mommy. He should be able to find a beater for cheap. 

She makes enough that she should be able to help him get a beater if she chose to. 

That is what I meant by using him as an excuse. 

My WAW/BPD/DS left me with a 6yo to take care of + my 8-5 M-F job. As soon as I decided I needed IC, I found one that day, had an appt the next day, and have been going weekly since. 

If she is determined... she will do it.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

zillard said:


> Her 30 yo son has a job and is living with mommy. He should be able to find a beater for cheap.
> 
> She makes enough that she should be able to help him get a beater if she chose to.
> 
> ...


She will.. she brought it up today in fact about finding one.. the can't use the car until saturdays... here is an additional complication... (see many facets)..

She has two younger kids also by a different x.. they are 18 and20 now.. however, he bent her over in court for child support because he only makes about 25K. She pays him $920 a month and the judge retroactive it so she also owes about $7K in arrears..She has to pay the support part until this May when the 18 yr old graduates HS.

This happened about 2 years ago.. 

She is going to buy another car soon, so it isn't like she is trying to find reason not to go to counseling.. she is willing, we have done it in the past and she was the one who initiated it.

I will say I don't thinkg our couselor was very good.. This time if it appears we aren't going anywhere we will find one that CAN help us instead of someone who just wants the check and doesn't seem to understand the issues involved. 

The lady was nice, but on several occassions I brought up things and she would say, " You know, I never thought of that."

I should have walked out then but I figured they are the ones with the sheepskin in he wall.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

zillard said:


> Her 30 yo son has a job and is living with mommy. He should be able to find a beater for cheap.


Why would he? Mommy feels guilty and he plays off it.. he's smooth.. he's tried some of his BS on me and it didn't fly.. 

He does it covert behind my back. 

I asked her if she wants her legacy to be an adult son and daughter (she's 32 and not much better than him) who fail miserably because mom enabled them to not grow up. 

My wife knows she isn't doing them any good.. she has scaled back some over the last couple of years, but not to where she needs to.. and she knows it. They play on her emotions.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Ok so it seems that when she said she couldn't afford to file until February it may be true then?

I am confused
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Toffer said:


> Ok so it seems that when she said she couldn't afford to file until February it may be true then?
> 
> I am confused
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She could afford it.. she really didn't want it.. she just wanted away from the kaos. And it was, trust me.. we were spiraling out of control.. if she would have stayed it would have just gotten worse.

She told me last week that in her previous marriages when she left the D was her main focus.. She said she didn't file because she didn't really want it.. 

We didn't handle a LOT of issues in our marriage very well.. this seperation has given us time to see we need help.. and we are actively seeking it.

She can afford a D, she can afford a car.. she needs to get her CS paid off though. I understand that.. she doens't really need a car all week because she literally works about a 1000 yards from her front door.

She has credit card debt also she is working on. 

This R process will take time and it may not even work.. we shall see.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Ostera said:


> Can you expand on tihs thought?


The woman showed no interest in her husband until she learned another woman was interested in him. Suddenly, she's back in the game. I used to have a dog that chased cows. Now, the dog didn't eat grass but he couldn't stand the sight of cows eating it. 
Once this wife weasles back into her vacated slot, she will resume her previous behavior.


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