# Advice pls....



## Papmers123 (Sep 25, 2013)

So I posted this in the men's thread because I couldn't get to this thread, but wanted to post here for more eyes :grin2: need some advice......So I don’t want to write a 3 book novel, but there is a little back story so I’ll keep this as short as I can to get the best opinions from you guys out there (and Ill answer any questions) But basically, my husband and I are in our mid 30ths, married 6 yrs, one child. Our sex life hasn’t been the greatest the last few years, but has taken a real noise dive within the past year. Like to also note, I’m a more then adventurous and willing wife(with a very strong sex drive), who would “do it” if not once a day multiple times a day. But right now we are at about once every 6 to 8 weeks and when we have sex he never finishes( bc I think he is terrified of getting me pregnant again). We have been fighting about this issue with in our relationship for about a yr & ½ now. He just always tells me he is too tired to do it. And he isn’t that interested in sex. Meanwhile, I’ve lost a lot of my self-esteem, I don’t feel desired and just all around not in a good place. I’m not a supermodel, but I’m not over weight either. Well one night my husband came home late from working & apparently wasn’t tired, so he went on the computer & I was asleep, I woke up b/c I had to use the bathroom and realized he was home. I went downstairs to say hi and I just got this feeling in my gut, well he was like I’m not tired I’ll be up in a little bit. Well I decided to stay up just to see if my gut was right. (bc I’ve heard him on the PC before and the next morning ? him and he would just tell me he was listening to music) Well low and behold I was right; I opened our bedroom door and heard him watching porn and taking care of himself. I can’t even describe the feelings that came over me, I was hurt, I felt betrayed, I didn’t know if I wanted to cry or throw up. I just calmly called him a liar and told him he was full of **** and turned around, went back into our bedroom and locked the door. He came up stairs and eventually got inside. He told me he was sorry, how embarrassed he was, he didn’t think it was a big deal. And I found out he’s been doing it about once a week and started about a year ago. He promised me that he would stop. This all started about month ago, well he’s been making an effort to try to have sex with me, more often. But since I caught him, he said he wouldn’t do it anymore. Well he has flat out lied to me, b.c I know he has at least twice if not more. I’m a woman I just know but can’t prove it, he’s a smart guy he will never do it again when I’m around. So to my ?’s: 
Should I be so hurt about this? Do guys look at these women and wish we were like them? Is it really as simple as he says, just reliving his stress? And ultimately wouldn’t a man rather have sex with a woman then his hand? Since I’m a woman I don’t understand how your guys brain work, but right now I just feel so hurt and betrayed.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I read your other thread. 

A sexless marriage is one in which sex occurs 10 or fewer time a year. It sounds like yours might technically be a sexless marriage at this point.

What your husband is doing is not unusual at all. About 10% of men stop having sex with either wife for various reasons. It is about the same as the ratio of women who stop having sex. We are led to believe that all men are horny all the time. So women usually blame themselves when their husbands do this.

There is a book that I think might help you put this in perspective:

Why Men Stop Having Sex: Men, the Phenomenon of Sexless Relationships, and What You Can Do About It by Bob Berkowitz and Susan Yager-Berkowitz 

Here is a link to a site that talks a lot about what is going on with your husband: Your Brain on Porn

Sure most men use porn. I don't think it is a problem as long as their sex life is satisfying to both them and their wife. 

You have every right to be upset with your husband because he is putting his sexual energy into porn viewing and neglecting you.

What he is doing has nothing to do with you. And even if it did, he's obligated to have discussed his issues with you and get you to work with him to fix them. He has not done that. 

If a woman did the exact same thing in marriage, you'd better believe that most husbands would be very hurt and upset by it.

Sometimes it gets to the point where porn is easier than having to deal with a live person who has to also be satisfied. Porn is just easy. It makes no demands and it never gets pregnant. And it makes no relationship demands. It also has the added benefit of a man being able to have sex with (in their mind) as many women as they want.. .. lots of variety.

My suggestion is that you do the reading above, and then you find a marriage counselor who is also a sex therapists. Then you tell your husband that either he goes to therapy with you or the marriage is over. Yes, I think that escalating to this extent is necessary because otherwise he's not likely to fix this. He's found a happy place and has little incentive to give it up.

Guys getting 'addicted' to porn is so common these days that it's a major issue with younger guys. Most of them now start using porn at a very early age, so sex with a woman is not always the preferred sex.

Sex therapists have methods that they can teach you two to get him off of the porn and back into the marriage bed and to fix his problems with completing, etc.

Don't let this go. Escalate it now. If you wait the damage to your marriage could lead to the end of the marriage.




.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Papmers123 said:


> ....But basically, my husband and I are in our mid 30ths, *married 6 yrs, one child*. Our sex life hasn’t been the greatest the last few years, but has taken a *real noise dive within the past year.* Like to also note, I’m a more then *adventurous and willing wife(with a very strong sex drive)*, who would “do it” if not once a day *multiple times a day*. But *right now we are at about once every 6 to 8 weeks and when we have sex he never finishes( bc I think he is terrified of getting me pregnant again)*. We have been *fighting about this issue with in our relationship for about a yr & ½ now*. He just always tells me he is *too tired to do it*. And he isn’t that interested in sex. Meanwhile, I’ve l*ost a lot of my self-esteem*,
> 
> .....Well one night my husband came home late from working & apparently wasn’t tired, so he went on the computer & I was asleep, I woke up .... I went downstairs.... I opened our bedroom door and heard him watching porn and taking care of himself. I can’t even describe the feelings that came over me, I was hurt, *I felt betrayed*, I didn’t know if I wanted to cry or *throw up*. I just *calmly called him a liar and told him he was full of **** and turned around, went back into our bedroom and locked the door*. He came up stairs and eventually got inside. He told me he was sorry, how embarrassed he was, he didn’t think it was a big deal. And I found out *he’s been doing it about once a week and started about a year ago*. He promised me that he would stop. This all started about month ago, well *he’s been making an effort to try to have sex with me, more often.* But since I caught him, he said he wouldn’t do it anymore. *Well he has flat out lied *to me, b.c I know he has at least twice if not more. I’m a woman I just know but can’t prove it, he’s a smart guy he will never do it again when I’m around. So to my ?’s:
> 
> ...


Read MW Davis the Sex Starved Wife book. You are not alone. For some men porn addiction is a real problem. Your H may or may not have a porn addiction. 

This is about him, not about you. Your self image, your desirability as a woman, your need to be validated sexually and otherwise by your H should not be codependent on your H.

Most guys masturbate to a certain extent, but not to the extent that it denies contact with their wife. However, most guys are somewhat ashamed of being observed masturbating or saying that they masturbate. That is a societal conditioned response. THE WAY YOU TREATED HIM really shamed him. You will have a hard time getting him to emotionally open to you. It can be a way of stress relieve and modern life, the responsibilities of being a man who views himself as the breadwinner and has to work hard to make money for his family are all stress full and exhausting.

If he tells you he is exhausted, he probably is. He might prefer stress relieving masturbation sex to sex with you as it is easier and quicker. You said that he sometimes doesn't "finish" because he is concerned about getting you pregnant. Well listen up, he is under performance stress when he has sex with you. That pressure to properly perform and not get you pregnant or to finish in a certain way is probably not an easy thing for him to do. So yes, masturbation, while not healthy, is probably much easier for him.

My suggestion is that you need to really listen to him. If he says he is tired, he is tired. If he says that sex with you stresses him out, he is probably telling you the truth. Figure out what you can do to destress sex for him. Figure out how he can get some sleep so he is rested more. 

Read MW Davis book and look at some of her suggestions. She will suggest getting a life, which are her code words for doing things for yourself that make you happy. Happy people are more sexy. 

Good luck to you. Forgive him. Forgive yourself. Don't hold a grudge. Work with him. Let him know you love him.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Also, I would like to merge your two threads into this one. You will get better responses with one thread so that people can see all of the responses and all of your posts. And the rule is also one thread on a topic here.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Papmers123,

Do you have a job outside the home? If so, what percentage of your joint income do you earn? (I'll explain why I'm asking after I get your response.)


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

I see the GF mostly on Friday, Saturday and Sunday.. I might see her once during the week, but that is occasionally. Maybe once every other week..

We have sex on Friday and once or twice on Saturday depending how busy we are and once or twice on Sunday. 

But on average depending on how I feel. I crank it out 2 to 3 times during those 4 days I don't see her.. 

So on average I go about 1 day WITHOUT releasing semen from my body during the week.. Granted it varies depending on the week sometimes.. Sometimes it more and sometimes its less.. But overall that is how it goes for me.. 

When I was married it was about 3 to 4 times a week.. 

Can you take the pill ? 
I get condoms suck.. I hardly used them myself.. I would be an utter noob if I had to use one today..

I got fixed after my 2nd son.. 
I knew I was just too old and not interested in having anymore kids no matter what.. Can he do that ?


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I regularly use porn, but I NEVER let it interfere with my sexlife. I could have sex multiple times a day, and I masturbate at least daily. I still much prefer real sex to the hand 100 times out of 100. I can't say why your H is using porn instead of making love (or fvcking if you prefer) his always available wife. I know for me that my wife may not look like the hottest girls in porn, but I EASILY choose her over pics and movies. 

I don't know if this helps. Regarding your H, he sounds like an immature, lazy ass.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

When you say your sex life hasn't been the greatest the last few years are you referring to the lack of sex or the quality of sex? Prior to this current absence of sex, which of you typically initiated sex? How often did you and your H have sex prior to parenthood? How often after parenthood?

You are not at fault here. There is nothing wrong with you. The problem is your husband, not you.

Okay now that we have that out of the way....

You're going to have to talk with your H about how you feel. "When we don't have sex for weeks and I discover you masturbating I feel...." 

You follow that up with what you need from him. "I need to feel that you're attracted to me as a woman/lover. I need to feel desired by you."

Finally you ask for his input. "How would you feel if I didn't want to have sex with you for a long time and then you discovered I was masturbating to trashy erotica instead of bringing my sexual energy to you? Do you want to fix this marriage? Are there things I'm doing or not doing that make you hesitate to bring your sexual energy to me? How can we get back on track?"

Getting busted for masturbating can feel shameful. Masturbation is a healthy normal behavior. Encourage your husband to masturbate in front of you, or you can do mutual masturbation together. Make your marriage bed a place where intimacy, honestly and openness flourishes.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Young at Heart said:


> Read MW Davis the Sex Starved Wife book. You are not alone. For some men porn addiction is a real problem. Your H may or may not have a porn addiction.
> 
> This is about him, not about you. Your self image, your desirability as a woman, your need to be validated sexually and otherwise by your H should not be codependent on your H.
> 
> Most guys masturbate to a certain extent, but not to the extent that it denies contact with their wife. However, most guys are somewhat ashamed of being observed masturbating or saying that they masturbate. That is a societal conditioned response. THE WAY YOU TREATED HIM really shamed him. You will have a hard time getting him to emotionally open to you.


I have a problem with a lot of this post.

I’ve seen threads on TAM in which a man is posting that his wife withholds sex. And then he finds out that she is masturbating to take care of her own sexual needs and all the while refusing him sex. And the guy confronts her and is very upset. There have been several threads like this. Not one person on TAM, male or female, made excuses for why she was masturbating. Not one person told him that “THE WAY YOU TREATED HER really shamed her. “ The consensus was that she was wrong to withhold sex and to let her masturbating interfere with their sex life. I do not see the difference between those scenarios and this one.

I think that any spouse would have the same reaction as Papmers123 if they were married to a person who refuses them sex on a regular basis, long term, and then walks in on that person masturbating. Especially knowing that they do it on a regular basis… all the while rejecting their spouse.


Young at Heart said:


> It can be a way of stress relieve and modern life, the responsibilities of being a man who views himself as the breadwinner and has to work hard to make money for his family are all stress full and exhausting.


I do not buy this. There are millions upon millions of men and women who are the breadwinners of their families. A good number of them don’t even have a spouse who helps them by taking care of the house, the children etc… they do it all themselves. I am one of them. And you know what? For most people, they figure out how to do all that and have a great sex life with their spouse.

There are ways to handle stress and modern life that do not require a man to ignore his wife’s emotional and sexual needs and jack off to porn.

And now Papmers123 is supposed to find a way to pamper him and make him feel all ok, warm and fuzzy for what he’s doing? Really? I don’t think so. 

This has been going on for at least 2 years. He needs to man up and address his issues with his wife and fix the marriage.




Young at Heart said:


> If he tells you he is exhausted, he probably is. He might prefer stress relieving masturbation sex to sex with you as it is easier and quicker. You said that he sometimes doesn't "finish" because he is concerned about getting you pregnant. Well listen up, he is under performance stress when he has sex with you. That pressure to properly perform and not get you pregnant or to finish in a certain way is probably not an easy thing for him to do. So yes, masturbation, while not healthy, is probably much easier for him.


This guy is a young man. If he is so exhausted that he cannot have a sex life with his wife, he has a serious physical health or mental health problem. He needs to take care of that. He certainly does not need to be up late at night using porn. Since he’s so exhausted and unable to function in a normal life, shouldn’t he be sleeping instead of up late sneaking porn?

He’s exhausted? He should find out why, take care of it and get the 8 hours of sleep he needs instead of getting up to sneak porn use.
He’s stressed? So find a way to deal with the stress that does not interfere and harm the marriage. 

He’s afraid of getting her pregnant? He can get snipped so that is no longer a problem. 

That’s what grownups do. They identify the problems, figure out eh solution and fix them.



Young at Heart said:


> My suggestion is that you need to really listen to him. If he says he is tired, he is tired. If he says that sex with you stresses him out, he is probably telling you the truth. Figure out what you can do to destress sex for him. Figure out how he can get some sleep so he is rested more.


And yes, both of them should be working together to figure out what each of them is contributing to the problem and fix it. Sneaking off for porn and refusing sex with his wife only makes any problems worse and they will continue to get worse. But in the end, he is the only one who can fix himself. And to do so, he has to actually talk with his wife and work on it together. She cannot fix this alone.



Young at Heart said:


> Read MW Davis book and look at some of her suggestions. She will suggest getting a life, which are her code words for doing things for yourself that make you happy. Happy people are more sexy.
> 
> Good luck to you. Forgive him. Forgive yourself. Don't hold a grudge. Work with him. Let him know you love him.


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## keiyayo (Jul 13, 2014)

I'm a woman but I watch porn once in awhile. It doesn't mean I want someone else. That's how I release myself because I'm in high drive side. I know some people are disgusted by porn. But I would like you to know that porn is merely visual stimulation. I don't imagine myself having sex with guys in porn. 
My husband and I were in similar situation where I was super HD and he was rather LD. Later he told me that he masterbated sometimes and I didn't get why he would do masturbate but not sex. he told me that its because when he is tired, he just want quick relief. I understand now. Still frustrated but at least now I know that it's not fault.


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## Papmers123 (Sep 25, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Papmers123,
> 
> Do you have a job outside the home? If so, what percentage of your joint income do you earn? (I'll explain why I'm asking after I get your response.)


Yes I do. I think I know where your going with this one. That's what kills me when he says he's tired. I work 8 hrs a day have an hr commute to and from work. I deal with our child. Get her ready in the AM drop off and pick up. I keep our house spotless and I do all the cooking and cleaning. He whom works from home. Gets up in the AM showers. Walks the two feet to his office where he sits all day and works. I get home make dinner clean up. Give our child her bath and put her to bed. While he's on the couch watching TV. So the last half hour of the night I get to rest. ( mind you I'm exhausted ) I still want to be with him and I give him all of my attention. That's what's so frustrating. I get 10% me time and I'm still willing to have sex. Most women would say get the hell away from me. No I'm still with all that willing to be there for him bc I love him so much. That's why I was so hurt. It would be one thing if I denied him. I never have ever said no. Even if I did t want to. Him. He's turned me down 100 of times


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Papmers123 said:


> So to my ?’s:
> Should I be so hurt about this? Do guys look at these women and wish we were like them? Is it really as simple as he says, just reliving his stress? And ultimately wouldn’t a man rather have sex with a woman then his hand? Since I’m a woman I don’t understand how your guys brain work, but right now I just feel so hurt and betrayed.


Porn is a sexual product that has been packaged for men as follows:

• instant gratification
• unlimited access
• unlimited variety
• low risk (can't get someone pregnant or catch STDs)
• high reward (easy to orgasm)

Current research indicates that if sex were food that porn and a wife fit into the following analogy:

• Porn = junkfood 
• Wife = healthy vegetables

One tastes good and has no nutritional value, while the other is good for you but generally takes longer to prepare for it to be ready to eat.

Personally I would choose a yummy squash casserole anyday over a candy bar, but if I have not been tending my garden and it has become full of pesky weeds, procrastination and a candy bar might get the best of me.

Regards,
Badsanta


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Papmers123 said:


> Yes I do. *I think I know where your going with this one.* That's what kills me when he says he's tired. I work 8 hrs a day have an hr commute to and from work. I deal with our child. Get her ready in the AM drop off and pick up. I keep our house spotless and I do all the cooking and cleaning. He whom works from home. Gets up in the AM showers. Walks the two feet to his office where he sits all day and works. I get home make dinner clean up. Give our child her bath and put her to bed. While he's on the couch watching TV. So the last half hour of the night I get to rest. ( mind you I'm exhausted ) I still want to be with him and I give him all of my attention. That's what's so frustrating. I get 10% me time and I'm still willing to have sex. Most women would say get the hell away from me. No I'm still with all that willing to be there for him bc I love him so much. That's why I was so hurt. It would be one thing if I denied him. I never have ever said no. Even if I did t want to. Him. He's turned me down 100 of times


Yep, that's where I was going.

So the excuse that he's so exhausted from earning a living is, well bunk. He does not even take responsibility for his half of the house work, chores or child care.

While there might be nothing wrong with a person, man or woman, using porn once in a while, when it interferes with the marital sex life there is a problem.

Yet, I'm not sure that his using porn interferes with your sex life. I love Bad Santa's post and the garden analogy. I think that the issues between the two of you have piled up so high and not been addressed and put to rest. So he's avoiding sex with you. Plus in doing this avoidance, he also might have created another problem with becoming 'addicted' to porn as described in the video I posted.

In a marriage, it is the responsibility of both parties to meet the other's needs. This means that there is work to do.

This has been going on for some time. I really think that it's time for the two of you talk and fix this problems. Since is unable to address them with you, I really think that you two need to be in counseling.


.


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## cvan (Dec 29, 2015)

I feel for you. Follow EleGirl advice and address this situation head on, now. If you don't, you will be like me - suspect my husband's *use* has escalated into sexting, and am actively trying to find out if I'm right. Porn I can (somewhat) live with/understand. Outright cheating (and yes, I believe sexting is cheating) is a deal-breaker.


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

wow a lot about porn on TAM today.

ill keep this simple - guys MUST release, it is a MUST

If W does not have sex drive compatible to H then he releases, usually to Porn due to its accessibility. This can be touchy b/c it can lead to sexless marriage. The cycle goes like this: W withholds sex - W finds out about porn - H&W withdraw - H increases porn - W gets more upset and so on....

Now if you have a problem with porn, then the simple fix is to send him some porn of you for him to JO too


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## Papmers123 (Sep 25, 2013)

Thank you all for the advice. Believe me we have talked about this issue at nauseum. He told me that yes he's doing it bc it's faster and to him "it's not that big of a deal". He just was releasing stress faster. We do have some other issues going on as well that I'm sure aren't hehelping. But they all kind of are interrelated. Someone asked me how out sex like was before. And basically it's always been on his terms. I haven't initiated sex in forever because I got tired of being turned down. But basically within the last year, instead of being romantic he would just come up to me and say okay we going to do it. I miss the romance. And I did tell him the same thing it makes no sense at I'm upstairs taking care of myself, while he's downstairs taking care of himself. I made a comment to him about how would he like it if I was thinking about other men or fantasizing about other men doing things to me. After I call him he said to me that it was not a big deal but it was the hurt that he put on me that hurt him the most. And he can understand why I felt so betrayed. But again he didn't think it was a big deal. Which is why I'm asking the questions I'm asking. Because like I said my self esteem has taken a dive. I will never look like one of those women, and in the back of my mind I'm wondering if that's what he wants.


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

it can def. be a blow to the ego. 

There are many ways to approach this, but try to stay positive and non-confrontational it is not the end of the world, there are worse things.

don't fight about it. you have to try things that can spice things up a bit maybe, make a change, don't worry what he does, trust me, he is not going to like JOing for the rest of his life. It is NOT the same as a woman.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Papmers123 said:


> Yes I do. *I think I know where your going with this one.* That's what kills me when he says he's tired. I work 8 hrs a day have an hr commute to and from work. I deal with our child. Get her ready in the AM drop off and pick up. I keep our house spotless and I do all the cooking and cleaning. He whom works from home. Gets up in the AM showers. Walks the two feet to his office where he sits all day and works. I get home make dinner clean up. Give our child her bath and put her to bed. While he's on the couch watching TV. So the last half hour of the night I get to rest. ( mind you I'm exhausted ) I still want to be with him and I give him all of my attention. That's what's so frustrating. I get 10% me time and I'm still willing to have sex. Most women would say get the hell away from me. No I'm still with all that willing to be there for him bc I love him so much. That's why I was so hurt. It would be one thing if I denied him. I never have ever said no. Even if I did t want to. Him. He's turned me down 100 of times


Yep, that's where I was going.

So the excuse that he's so exhausted from earning a living is, well bunk. He does not even take responsibility for his half of the house work, chores or child care.

While there might be nothing wrong with a person, man or woman, using porn once in a while, when it interferes with the marital sex life there is a problem.

Yet, I'm not sure that his using porn interferes with your sex life. I love Bad Santa's post and the garden analogy. I think that the issues between the two of you have piled up so high and not been addressed and put to rest. So he's avoiding sex with you. Plus in doing this avoidance, he also might have created another problem with becoming 'addicted' to porn as described in the video I posted.

In a marriage, it is the responsibility of both parties to meet the other's needs. This means that there is work to do.

This has been going on for some time. I really think that it's time for the two of you talk and fix this problems. Since is unable to address them with you, I really think that you two need to be in counseling.


.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

HiRoad said:


> wow a lot about porn on TAM today.
> 
> ill keep this simple - guys MUST release, it is a MUST
> 
> ...


Did you even read her posts? She is high drive. It's her husband who refuses to have sex with her. He prefers porn. That's the problem.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Papmers123 said:


> Thank you all for the advice. Believe me we have talked about this issue at nauseum. He told me that yes he's doing it bc it's faster and to him "it's not that big of a deal". He just was releasing stress faster. We do have some other issues going on as well that I'm sure aren't hehelping. But they all kind of are interrelated. Someone asked me how out sex like was before. And basically it's always been on his terms. I haven't initiated sex in forever because I got tired of being turned down. But basically within the last year, instead of being romantic he would just come up to me and say okay we going to do it. I miss the romance. And I did tell him the same thing it makes no sense at I'm upstairs taking care of myself, while he's downstairs taking care of himself. I made a comment to him about how would he like it if I was thinking about other men or fantasizing about other men doing things to me. After I call him he said to me that it was not a big deal but it was the hurt that he put on me that hurt him the most. And he can understand why I felt so betrayed. But again he didn't think it was a big deal. Which is why I'm asking the questions I'm asking. Because like I said my self esteem has taken a dive. I will never look like one of those women, and in the back of my mind I'm wondering if that's what he wants.


You will end up falling out of love with him and most likely end up in a divorce. That's what happens when a person refuses to meet their spouse's most important emotional needs. It's human nature.

You would also benefit from reading the books "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters". They show what a healthy marriage is like. Then you need to get him to read the books and work through them with you.

.


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Did you even read her posts? She is high drive. It's her husband who refuses to have sex with her. He prefers porn. That's the problem.


where does it say she has a high drive?

I read that she initiates which can be interpreted many ways, 

Now lets say she is honestly trying, and he is consistently denying, then, she needs to start implementing the 180.


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Did you even read her posts? She is high drive. It's her husband who refuses to have sex with her. He prefers porn. That's the problem.


Ok I see where you get the high sex drive in the original post but that was 1.5 years ago, I think we can agree that the high sex drive is a mute point now


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

HiRoad said:


> where does it say she has a high drive?
> 
> I read that she initiates which can be interpreted many ways,
> 
> Now lets say she is honestly trying, and he is consistently denying, then, she needs to start implementing the 180.


The below quote is from the first post on this thread. Anyone who wants sex daily or more than once a day is high drive.



Papmers123 said:


> . Our sex life hasn’t been the greatest the last few years, but has taken a real noise dive within the past year. *Like to also note, I’m a more then adventurous and willing wife(with a very strong sex drive), who would “do it” if not once a day multiple times a day.* But right now we are at about once every 6 to 8 weeks and when we have sex he never finishes


It is her husband who refuses to have sex with her.

And yes she needs to take drastic action at this point.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

HiRoad said:


> Ok I see where you get the high sex drive in the original post but that was 1.5 years ago, I think we can agree that the high sex drive is a mute point now


Why is it a mute point now? She wants sex often. He refuses sex. She still has a high sex drive. He refuses. I think that is very pertinent.


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Why is it a mute point now? She wants sex often. He refuses sex. She still has a high sex drive. He refuses. I think that is very pertinent.


I just don't get it, I don't get why W in general react the way the do. 

If my W caught me watching porn and JO she has 2 choices:

1. get mad, upset, pissed, whatever
2. Join in 

Matter of fact this has happened before, I walked in on her and she has walked in on me, the WE got it ON!!! It was hot. 

See I could of been all pissy with her and ask why, complain, and withhold sex. But I CHOSE not to and to say, "dang baby, don't stop this is HOT"

Maybe it is me, but I still don't get it. I mean if it was a Jared Fogel type addiction then yea, get some help, leave him, take him to the cleaners, and send a thank you card to the prison. 

But normal porn use, or sexless marriages are preventable 100%, IMHO. But then again I am a dude, simple minded. :smile2:


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## cvan (Dec 29, 2015)

Funny, reading through the posts, I was thinking the same thing, a lot of porn-defense going on here. As it is in my case, doesn't sound as though porn is really the issue, although it certainly doesn't help. There are a lot of lazy men out there.


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

cvan said:


> Funny, reading through the posts, I was thinking the same thing, a lot of porn-defense going on here. As it is in my case, doesn't sound as though porn is really the issue, although it certainly doesn't help. There are a lot of lazy men out there.


I mean seriously, it is laughable, I am cracking up right now!

Hey and I am not going to sit up here and say that my W has never gotten mad at me before for porn, looking at other women, saying "shes hot", etc.

What I am saying is it is how WE CHOOSE to attack the problem. 

"The problem is not the problem, it is your attitude about the problem" - Capt. Jack Sparrow

We can both look back at what happened and laugh about it, and I hope you and your H can do the same one day. 

I made the choice not to get mad but to embrace her little chapstick toy. I am completely ok with her using it, but like you all pointed out, as long as we are both satisfied.


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## cvan (Dec 29, 2015)

Unfortunately for the Husband, my choice at the moment, is to simply do nothing. I'm checked out. He has mutually excluded me from HIS sex life (which consists of masturbating to porn every time I'm out of the house), leaving me hanging out to dry. Mad? No. I'm not 'mad'. I'm disappointed, because after everything...he never even bothered trying. But then, this is not my thread  no intent to hijack...


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## cvan (Dec 29, 2015)

intheory said:


> Yes, there are.
> 
> But, I finally decided to "bite the bullet", years ago; and accept that my husband really was far more sexually attracted to other women than he was to me. You change inside after you decide to accept that.
> 
> ...


Accept it? my husband can't even **** me anymore - THAT is what I have to accept! And that he won't even bother trying! Argh!!!!


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

cvan - I feel for you honestly. It is no fun to be in your shoes. 

If you want things to change someone has to take the first step to try.

think about it you could have some real fun with this. I mean I would start ordering toys from online and make sure he is home and sees all these packages coming in.


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## cvan (Dec 29, 2015)

intheory said:


> No. If a spouse will no longer have sex with you; they have violated their marriage vows.
> 
> That's divorce worthy;if it's not resolved.
> 
> ...


That part doesn't bother me...so he'd rather have pretend sex with 20 year olds on the internet...that's really HIS problem, not mine! When I look at it this way, it actually makes me laugh...I mean, here we have a grown man, in his 50's, whose sex life consists of the internet and his right hand. We don't have sex anymore. Once every 2 months, maybe, and when we do, it's crap. What really pisses me off is that I gave up a healthy sex life (as a single gal) to marry this guy. A great person in every other aspect but this one. I'm rambling now, making no sense, I'm sure...forgive.


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

intheory said:


> No. If a spouse will no longer have sex with you; they have violated their marriage vows.
> 
> That's divorce worthy;if it's not resolved.


this is a little extreme don't you think?

intheory you a little bitter? no offence meant


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

you gals are funny. Eventually his hand will get old and tired, lol.


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## Papmers123 (Sep 25, 2013)

HiRoad said:


> where does it say she has a high drive?
> 
> I read that she initiates which can be interpreted many ways,
> 
> Now lets say she is honestly trying, and he is consistently denying, then, she needs to start implementing the 180.


HiRoad,
y I have a very high sex drive, I would do it multiple times a day if it were up to me. but its not. Early in our relationship I would try to initiate sex and get turned down, I stopped initiating it b.c there are so many times you get turned down before you really start to build resentment. so I stopped and stated to just let him tell me when he wanted sex. and again I was willing to do that because I love this man. and in the past he has MB in front of me, bc he was so worried about getting me prego, we would do it, I would finish and then he would MB with me next to him for him to finish. I would participate in that process, but now he doesn't want to even do that with me anymore. that's why I thought maybe its me. he isn't attracted to me, but he tells me that isn't the case. he says he still loves me. So that's why I don't understand the porn use, but he did say to me (under his breath) that its different. again, im a more then willing wife. Im not a prude by any means. So its like how do I get threw to him. and I agree with elegirl is saying, she is spot on!


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## cvan (Dec 29, 2015)

intheory said:


> When you get married; that is a definite commitment to having sex with the person you married, "to have and to hold, forsaking all others", and so forth.
> 
> Even if those exact words are not spoken at the ceremony - who in their right mind thinks that you are not agreeing to be a sexual partner when you get married?
> 
> ...


I'm sure if I grabbed the bull by the proverbial horns, I could have a little more sex...but why should I? I'm tired. This problem reared its ugly head early on in our relationship. I tried everything I could think of for years, counselling, advice from here, using porn together, books, etc, etc., and my husband never bothered to even make a serious attempt. I never asked him to 'give up' porn. I asked him to at least try to have a real sex life with me. Incredibly, he is too lazy to bother, and I, for one, will never understand how masturbating is more enjoyable than actual sex (because although fun, it doesn't quite cut it for me). My husband's sex life has consisted of porn, porn, and more porn, along with a handful of girlfriends after college, and a prude of a first wife. Honestly, had I known it would be like this, I wouldn't have married him. I was having more sex as a single woman, than I do now.


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## Papmers123 (Sep 25, 2013)

HiRoad said:


> I just don't get it, I don't get why W in general react the way the do.
> 
> If my W caught me watching porn and JO she has 2 choices:
> 
> ...


after the fact I wish I would have tired this, but again, I was just so pissed. He told me well you were asleep. I said did you ever think of waking me up. again wouldn't have turned him away!


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## cvan (Dec 29, 2015)

Papmers123 said:


> HiRoad,
> y *I have a very high sex drive, I would do it multiple times a day if it were up to me. but its not.* Early in our relationship I would try to initiate sex and get turned down, I stopped initiating it b.c there are so many times you get turned down before you really start to build resentment. so I stopped and stated to just let him tell me when he wanted sex. and again I was willing to do that because I love this man. and in the past he has MB in front of me, bc he was so worried about getting me prego, we would do it, I would finish and then he would MB with me next to him for him to finish. I would participate in that process, but now he doesn't want to even do that with me anymore. that's why I thought maybe its me. he isn't attracted to me, but he tells me that isn't the case. he says he still loves me. So that's why I don't understand the porn use, but he did say to me (under his breath) that its different. again, im a more then willing wife. Im not a prude by any means. So its like how do I get threw to him. and I agree with elegirl is saying, she is spot on!


Your high drive will go away, depending on how long you've been going through this.


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

intheory said:


> When you get married; that is a definite commitment to having sex with the person you married, "to have and to hold, forsaking all others", and so forth.
> 
> Even if those exact words are not spoken at the ceremony - who in their right mind thinks that you are not agreeing to be a sexual partner when you get married?
> 
> ...



I think you are addressing the symptom not the root cause of the problem

why is he denying you sex? It may not be porn addiction


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## cvan (Dec 29, 2015)

HiRoad said:


> I think you are addressing the symptom not the root cause of the problem
> 
> why is he denying you sex? It may not be porn addiction


Because porn is easy and he is LAZY.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> I have a problem with a lot of this post.
> 
> I’ve seen threads on TAM in which a man is posting that his wife withholds sex. And then he finds out that she is masturbating to take care of her own sexual needs and all the while refusing him sex. And the guy confronts her and is very upset. There have been several threads like this. Not one person on TAM, male or female, made excuses for why she was masturbating. Not one person told him that “THE WAY YOU TREATED HER really shamed her. “ The consensus was that she was wrong to withhold sex and to let her masturbating interfere with their sex life. I do not see the difference between those scenarios and this one.


Maybe if you read the following I posted to a guy whose wife was sexually ignoring him and he found her staying up doing things until after he is asleep, you might better understand what I was trying to say. Being too tired for sex is sometimes a coping mechanism to prevent something worse. Also there are lots of studies out there about how common sleep deprivation is in modern society. The guy could actually be too tired and not know how to break his poor sleep cycle. Is that an excuse for not paying attention to his wife? No, but it may be an explanation, that the spouse can work with to change things. Same thing with masturbation. If it is really an addiction, he might not be able to easily break the cycle, which is why they call it an addiction. 

Sometimes what seems like the most direct answer isn't really the answer at all. I really can't say in this situation, but sometimes alternate explanations should be explored. Again, please read the following.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/305097-what-do-2.html#post14285377

P.S. I thought I would add another post of mine on LD/HD that might offer background information as well.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/308482-my-husbands-sex-drive-much-lower-than-mine.html#post14448970




> That’s what grownups do. They identify the problems, figure out eh solution and fix them.
> 
> ...And yes, both of them should be working together to figure out what each of them is contributing to the problem and fix it. Sneaking off for porn and refusing sex with his wife only makes any problems worse and they will continue to get worse. But in the end, he is the only one who can fix himself. And to do so, he has to actually talk with his wife and work on it together. She cannot fix this alone.


My perspective having survived a sex starved marriage is a little different. I want to say that I do agree with you that it takes two to ultimately save a marriage. I also know that you can't change your spouse, but I learned from MW Davis that I can change myself and that will change the dynamic between us enough that might wife may just find that changing herself is something she wants to do.

What really helped save my marriage was the approach outlined MW Davis. Basically she says that if you are in a marriage that isn't working AND YOU WANT TO SAVE THAT MARRIAGE, then NO MATTER WHAT, there are things you can do that MAY (or may not) save the marriage, but at least you will have tried to save it. She believes that in trying to save a marriage, that the "victim" can actually do something about their situation as opposed to waiting for their partner to take action.

Yes, your model is a "nicer" more socially just and fair approach so that the wronged person isn't the one fighting for their marriage. However, if you are in a marriage and want to save it, it is nice to know that there are books you can read that can give you ideas on how to save your marriage even if you aren't the person who screwed it up. Because sometimes, you just might have been part of the problem and not known it.

My advice was trying to be helpful. We all bring different life experiences to this forum. My belief is that one size solutions don't fit all situations.


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

cvan said:


> I'm sure if I grabbed the bull by the proverbial horns, I could have a little more sex...but why should I? I'm tired. This problem reared its ugly head early on in our relationship. I tried everything I could think of for years, counselling, advice from here, using porn together, books, etc, etc., and my husband never bothered to even make a serious attempt. I never asked him to 'give up' porn. I asked him to at least try to have a real sex life with me. Incredibly, he is too lazy to bother, and I, for one, will never understand how masturbating is more enjoyable than actual sex (because although fun, it doesn't quite cut it for me). My husband's sex life has consisted of porn, porn, and more porn, along with a handful of girlfriends after college, and a prude of a first wife. Honestly, had I known it would be like this, I wouldn't have married him. I was having more sex as a single woman, than I do now.


you H is stuck in a rut and needs a little kick in the but to get him out of it. 

You just have to find out what that button is and push it.


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

Papmers123 said:


> after the fact I wish I would have tired this, but again, I was just so pissed. He told me well you were asleep. I said did you ever think of waking me up. *again wouldn't have turned him away*!


Did you tell him this? Tell him that I wont deny you, be sexually explicit about it too, tell him what he can do


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

pampers & cvan if you want things to change you have to do something about your lazy H's.

I can tell you we are lazy by nature and don't want to do all the emotiaonal hard work, we just want to cut the chase and get to the point when it comes to sex.

If you all really want things to change stop banging your head against the wall and do something completely differnet.

otherwise just leave their lazy butts! The are plenty of young hot guys with plenty of HD that have fetishes for older women! Just saying.


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## cvan (Dec 29, 2015)

HiRoad said:


> pampers & cvan if you want things to change you have to do something about your lazy H's.
> 
> I can tell you we are lazy by nature and don't want to do all the emotiaonal hard work, we just want to cut the chase and get to the point when it comes to sex.
> 
> ...


I shall respectfully disagree, here, since H is the one who has to 'change' himself. Why should I jump through hoops trying to compete with porn? It's not sustainable. He is the one who should be doing the heavy lifting, especially after all my efforts in this area.

Leave his ass? I'm 100% positive that's where we're headed, since we all have our breaking points.


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## Papmers123 (Sep 25, 2013)

HiRoad said:


> pampers & cvan if you want things to change you have to do something about your lazy H's.
> 
> I can tell you we are lazy by nature and don't want to do all the emotiaonal hard work, we just want to cut the chase and get to the point when it comes to sex.
> 
> .


It's funny you say this bc I've heard this come out of his mouth before. Lol he's like it sometimes I just want to go and not have to wait for you to warm up. I jokingly told him to bad. Haha that's part of the whole act. What's so hard is the rest of our relationship is perfect. Aside from the sex. And someone once told me it's all up to what I'm willing and not willing to put up with. Like someone said before it's not the porn that's the issue. If he wants to watch it so be it. It's the fact that I'm starving for it and your doing that without me. I told him my biggest fear is him not wanting me in that part of his life. The one who makes him feel that good. But like you said. I'm tired of banging my head against a wall. I've tired it all. Be a *****. Kiss his ass and still nothing. So I just have to be the best wife I can be and hopefully that will rub off.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

HiRoad said:


> I just don't get it, I don't get why W in general react the way the do.
> 
> If my W caught me watching porn and JO she has 2 choices:
> 
> ...


That’s really cool that you and your wife have that kind of relationship. But not all people do. 
When a man prefers porn to having sex with his wife, her trying to join in would be a good idea. He does not want sex with her. That’s the point.


HiRoad said:


> Maybe it is me, but I still don't get it. I mean if it was a Jared Fogel type addiction then yea, get some help, leave him, take him to the cleaners, and send a thank you card to the prison.


Porn is not the real issue with the OP. The real issue is that her husband does not want sex with HER. I suppose until you have had a spouse who act like you are disgusting and will not touch you, you cannot understand what it’s like.


HiRoad said:


> But normal porn use, or sexless marriages are preventable 100%, IMHO. But then again I am a dude, simple minded. :smile2:


Really? Preventable 100%. Since you know how to do this, please enlighten us. How do a person get someone who does not want to have sex with them to have sex with them willingly?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

HiRoad said:


> cvan - I feel for you honestly. It is no fun to be in your shoes.
> 
> If you want things to change someone has to take the first step to try.
> 
> think about it you could have some real fun with this. I mean I would start ordering toys from online and make sure he is home and sees all these packages coming in.


You think that her ordering sex toys is going to make him want sex with her? I don’t think you understand the issue. The issue is that he does not want sex with her at all. 

What the research has shown is that when a man does not want to have sex with his wife, it is usually because he harbors anger and resentment. The withholding of sex is a passive aggressive way to punish her for whatever her supposed sins against him. In most cases, the way this gets fixed is for him drop the passive aggressive nonsense and start working with her to fix whatever it is that has him marinating in anger and resentful.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> ....What the research has shown is that when a man does not want to have sex with his wife, it is usually because he harbors anger and resentment. *The withholding of sex is a passive aggressive way to punish her for whatever her supposed sins against him*. *In most cases, the way this gets fixed is for him drop the passive aggressive nonsense and start working with her to fix whatever it is that has him marinating in anger and resentful*.


I agree that most of the time there is anger. And this is discussed not nearly enough. Both partners often share that anger or resentment. It is a relationship killer. And you are right that sometimes there is passive aggressive behavior on the part of one or both partners. But not always.

If the marriage is to survive, one partner needs to drop the anger and make changes so that the other can join in. From what I have read, it doesn't really matter which partner forgives first and tries to reestablish love and respect in the relationship. 

The partner not participating in sex might be a passive aggressive thing or it could be something else. In my SSM, it was no longer allowing myself to be emotionally crushed by my wife at a moment of my vulnerability. My wife wanted to stay angry with/at me. After the rare sex event when she felt too emotionally close (thank you Oxytocine) she would create terrible emotional fights with me (and she knew after all those years of marriage where my hot buttons were) so that we would fight and she would regain her emotional distance that she cherished. It took a lot of pain and change on my part to not allow myself to be drawn into a fight, but to remain calm. 

If every time you call a dog and when it shows up to play, you beat it, soon it will no longer come when you call it. 

Not coming to play or have sex when your wife calls, when you know you are going to be emotionally (not physcialy) beaten, is not passive aggressive behavior on your part, it is wisdom. 

If you then emotionally check out of your marriage, you are not being fair to either you or your spouse.

Either party at that point can try to initiate change.

Again, in my case I was the HD and my W was the LD or ultimately ND. I gave up having sex with her. Exhausted myself so I had little sex drive. When I needed sex badly, I would masturbate rather than try to initiate sex with my wife as I knew she would have emotionally hurt me. During sessions with the Sex Therapist, the therapist said that yes masturbating at such a time was wise and appropriate.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

intheory said:


> How does it make you feel btw, that you are broccoli and cabbage to your husband; and the women in porn are pizza and french fries and ice-cream. I'm sure that makes you feel a whole lot better.


Just FYI, there is a point where just pizza, french fries, and ice cream start to taste unappealing if you binge on it for too long. The body will crave something healthy, but at the same time you have to detox from all the junk food before you can feel normal again. 



intheory said:


> Because porn use must be defended at all costs; the fact that the wife is HD will be ignored.


I would argue that it is not necessarily "porn use" that must be defended by many men that use it, but more so their ability to be "sexually selfish" and enjoy their desire in what ever manner they see fit. For those that self sooth and relieve stress through porn and masturbation, taking that away is about like taking away a pacifier and security blanket from a baby. So think of it as "selfishness" that is defended in an "immature" manner. 



intheory said:


> You have porn-sex over sex-with-wife, because porn sex is more enjoyable. You can supplement with wife-sex. But the real thrill comes from all the goings on in porn.
> 
> Men have to admit that. Women have to accept that. And we all modify our behavior accordingly. Relationship and marriages are going to change forever because of this.


One thing I think women do need to accept about porn is that men will allow themselves to be more vulnerable about what arouses themselves while alone with a computer. Meanwhile they might build up the courage mention they might like to explore something fairly vanilla with their wife and may get treated like they are a disgusting pervert. Then of course these men tend to shut down, feel unaccepted, and mostly keep to themselves. I went through this once with my wife when she refused to do anything that has to do with prostate stimulation because she is a germaphobe. I've since gotten over it. 



Papmers123 said:


> he's like it sometimes I just want to go and not have to wait for you to warm up.


Odds are for what ever reason he has become selfish and unwilling to be vulnerable about what he likes with you. Have you ever had fights about his sexuality and made him feel ashamed? 

Badsanta


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

And it is not necessarily the porn. It may be mostly the masturbation. That is, solo sex is a totally different animal than partner sex. As badsanta said, solo sex is selfish. Person doing SS doesn't have to worry about satisfying their partner. Doesn't have to worry about performance. Doesn't have to make an effort to keep going once they themselves are "finished".

So the basic message here may not be "I won't give up porn". The basic message may be "I am too afraid that I can't satisfy you and am too lazy to put in the effort to satisfy you (and maybe the changes to my diet and exercise that might be required for me to acquire the ability to satisfy you). Basically, trying to satisfy you is too much work and too much emotional risk so I am just going to satisfy myself and you should do the same."

Not a very loving message. But if you make it safe for them to share their vulnerability with you then maybe you can convince them to at least try.


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