# Hit a roadblock in our reconciliation - need advise



## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Yesterday while trying to resolve an issue with phone bills, I stumbled across one month I had previously ignored from last January where my WS and the OM exchanged texts over 1200 times. I wasn't digging and I've been trying hard to put it all behind me. It just hit me in the face as a trigger. I then couldn't get information about recent billing because I didn't know the passcode and security questions and the account was in my wifes name. Another trigger from the days where she was changing everything to hide things from me. She doesn't remember doing it. Long story short, I lost it and sent it texts asking what was going on that month and telling her I wanted EVERYTHING in my name because I was tired of being told I couldn't get information. I also texted her I was imploding with pain and getting very angry. This was all when she was at work. She was extremely torn up and fearful of coming home. Today she went to IPsych and he told her she never needed to take that kind of abuse. She told me when she got home she couldn't live with that. I told her I was doing my best to get over the 20 years of cheating and 3 men and she needed to understand and accept that I would sometimes loose control. It has only happened with this level of response once in two months since we started to reconcile and one other minor time. I feel as though I need to be cut a little bit of slack and more praised than bounced for a few events. She said she just can't handle it and is dealing with her problems from guilt and deserves consideration as well. I feel like she is telling me I can't ever get angry and I don't feel like there is ANY relationship out there that doesn't have strong arguments once in a while. She has said the hurt she has felt when I get mad is what drove her away. I responded that it was no excuse for her affair - she alone made the decision to go for comfort elsewhere and a sexual affair instead on asking for marriage counseling. I told her it has been hard to put it behind me and deal with it and thought I needed to commended for how well I was doing but I could never guarantee it wouldn't happen again. My PTSD when it happens makes it impossible for me to shut down and walk away. I told her I would do my best to pull back and not text or email and would also have to stop talking until I settled down. I also told her I felt she need consider what was happening to me and comfort me not attack back like she did yesterday. Consider what was happening and not take it so personally which she always does and in the past ran away to the OM.

Am I expecting too much? I feel like this new psychiatrist is treating her alone and not considering the MC and R going on or what I've been through. We don't have another mC session until Monday and she is going to her Nieces for a babay shower this weekend. I feel like I did when things were real bad and don't think it can wait. She seems to think we need to resolve it at MC and stop talking about it. We will she when gets home later. I'm wound up tight and feel like I'm going to explode becuase it feels like she isn't committed even though she says she is.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

Full transparency or there is no working it out. If she still needs to hide things from you then it'll never work out. You'll eat yourself from the inside out with anger and pain until you go totally numb or lose it completely and go into a flying rage.

Either way it's a lose/lose situation. If you need the access, then you should get it, end of discussion. If she thinks you're invading her privacy then it's time to start talking to a lawyer and protecting yourself from her.

There is no more secrets for the cheater, if my wife wants access, I give it (although she never asks for it anymore since I'm home almost 24/7)


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## Workingitout (Sep 27, 2010)

1) You need to control your anger. Your inner child, that little boy inside of you, is having issues. Reassure him that everything will be ok, and if it's not, then the adult in you will protect him and keep him safe.
2) Don't text issues of emotion. Those are best suited for face to face discussions. Never text emotional stuff.
3) Keep in mind that she's suffering as well. You both need to have compassion for eachother.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Hi 8years - please read this carefully - I take the side of your marriage in this matter - and I address you as a rational person - and one that is darned intelligent, too. While this may be somewhat confrontational, the end in mind is success for your marriage....



> Yesterday while trying to resolve an issue with phone bills, I stumbled across one month I had previously ignored from last January where my WS and the OM exchanged texts over 1200 times. I wasn't digging and I've been trying hard to put it all behind me. It just hit me in the face as a trigger. I then couldn't get information about recent billing because I didn't know the passcode and security questions and the account was in my wifes name. Another trigger from the days where she was changing everything to hide things from me. She doesn't remember doing it. Long story short, I lost it and sent it texts asking what was going on that month and telling her I wanted EVERYTHING in my name because I was tired of being told I couldn't get information. I also texted her I was imploding with pain and getting very angry. This was all when she was at work. She was extremely torn up and fearful of coming home.


This is truly a difficult thing with which to deal. It is reasonable (and understandable) to experience various (and strong) emotions when making discoveries like this. 

I would like to point out, however, that your reaction to experiencing the emotion must be separated from the emotion itself (yes, I know, that is difficult!) 

This was at least two Love Busters at once: 

1) An angry outburst.
2) A disrespectful judgment.

This is a trigger situation and the best way to handle a trigger is to sit down with your spouse and simply discuss it. This places both you and your spouse on the same page, and puts you both together working on the issue. Triggers happen, and will continue to happen for quite a while. 

But Love Busters need to be avoided, because those are the opposite of love. And love builds a relationship. It's opposite destroys. 

I can take this situation as an example (yes, it's water under the bridge, but it also might help for future situations).

You discover something that happened a year ago. It triggers all the emotions accompanying betrayal and loss. 

Here you have the opportunity to note that these emotions are occurring. And it is time to examine your possible reactions, and use a preset principle to help you decide which route to travel. The suggested route is to _always_ avoid Love Busters/Extinguishers, and to _always_ engage in supplying emotional needs/Love Kindlers. 

Take 10. Take 20 minutes, before any reaction at all. Then start thinking about the reality of the situation: this was stuff that happened a year ago; your wife can't undo it if she tried. It is truly something she _cannot_ do. It has happened, and that is that. 

But your reaction is something you CAN handle: in basically attacking your wife at work for something she did a year ago - and that you are already pretty much aware of - has one affect only: to create a negative response in your wife. 

Has she not given you full transparency already? How can she do more? Has she not already committed to the marriage? What more can you ask? 

You make a couple of observations that you should probably challenge, and perhaps change. 



> I told her I was doing my best to get over the 20 years of cheating and 3 men and she needed to understand and accept that I would sometimes loose control


No, she does _not_ need to accept that you will sometimes lose control. _You do not "need" to lose control._ You are a rational human being, You choose your actions! There is always a space between learning a fact, experiencing some sort of emotion, and then deciding how to react to that emotion. Don't be fooled: your choice to text her in anger was a choice you made, you are responsible for it. Because it is a choice you made, you also have the ability to choose something else. It may seem too difficult - you may not even want to do it - but since when do either of those things (difficulty of desire) command what we must do as adults? At times, we simply must do what is difficult - and what we don't want to do. 

But NO one should simply excuse any Love Buster. By definition, these are the things that are designed to destroy a relationship - and we choose to do them! Instead, take the time to choose otherwise.



> I feel like she is telling me I can't ever get angry and I don't feel like there is ANY relationship out there that doesn't have strong arguments once in a while.


I'm not sure she is saying you can't get angry. I think it is more along the lines of the WAY you react when angry that is the issue. Hence her statement "...She has said the hurt she has felt when I get mad is what drove her away...."

Please consider: _It is what happens WHEN you get mad, not THAT you get mad, that is the issue._

Incidentally: your statement: "...I responded that it was no excuse for her affair - she alone made the decision to go for comfort elsewhere and a sexual affair instead on asking for marriage counseling...." is quite true - but there is a coincidental one: There is no excuse for lashing out in anger at another person either: there are better ways to handle the issue. You could choose to simply tell her you found some texts from a year ago, and it reminded you of all the pain you felt...



> My PTSD when it happens makes it impossible for me to shut down and walk away. I told her I would do my best to pull back and not text or email and would also have to stop talking until I settled down


Your PTSD makes it DIFFICULT, not impossible, to 'shut down' and 'walk away'. This may not be what you want to hear, but remember, you could also have done a LOT worse than you did. If you have 'no' control over your reactions to emotions, you could have burned down the house, killed your wfe and yourself, and then gotten REALLY angry. The fact is that you thought enough to actually write texts. How can a disorder come up with that idea? It cannot think, and it cannot act. PTSD means that you experience very strong emotional reactions, and your military training has habituated you into rage as a response. But you are a man, and strong enough to survive. You can make choices!.



> Consider what was happening and not take it so personally which she always does and in the past ran away to the OM.


How can she NOT take it personally? It was HER actions a year ago that you chose to act upon! It was HER to whom you sent tests. It was HER to whom you made threats and promises. It is ENTIRELY personal. You can't escape the fact that it is personally _your_ wife to whom you are speaking, even if you use the words 'it isn't personal'. If it wasn't personal, she would not have received any text. You had to choose a person (and you chose her) to send messages!


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Its a roller coaster ride man,,and right now the BOTH of you are in a low. Ask her to sit down and have a nice dinner and a movie. I quess what I'm saying is find the "up" in life.. together. Both of you were upset and tomorrow is another day with brighter things ahead. Every body stumbles, you stumbled with your behavior and she stumbled with her response, SH*T HAPPENS, I want to believe that the both of you are better then this and will over come.

Things are not always perfect, the both of you need to go find a happy place and just chill in each others company. Try a park or a lake, somewhere the both of you can relax and enjoy and just take a breath. 
Good luck and I hope she comes along to find that place you both were at just the other day.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

> ... Long story short, I lost it and sent it texts asking what was going on that month and telling her I wanted EVERYTHING in my name because I was tired of being told I couldn't get information. I also texted her I was imploding with pain and getting very angry. This was all when she was at work. She was extremely torn up and fearful of coming home.


Okay so note to self: you do know that this is unacceptable, right? I mean ... understandable? yes. Acceptable? no. Even in a very strong disagreement, it is not acceptable to "lose it" on your spouse. So I would encourage you to take personal responsibility for your choice to "lose it" and I would use the R-E-P-S method. This stands for *(R)*esponsibiity--take personal responsibility for your choice to lose it, and don't blame her for what you chose. *(E)*mpathy--let her know that you suspect that hurt her, scared her, put her in a bad position at work, etc. The idea here is so she knows that you understand how she might have felt. *(P)*lan--Explain what you'll do next time a trigger comes up so that you can make a better choice. What's your plan to improve and do better buddy? Let her know and if you need something, request it of her--like maybe it would be wiser for you to say "For my own peace of mind I'd like to put my name on the bills or on the cell phone bill at least so I feel like I have some information that helps me feel secure." *(S)*afety--usually you would encourage her to do what she has to do in order to feel safe, but in this instance I would maybe modify it slightly to say "I realize you may still be a little afraid and I do want you to feel safe, so how can we do that together?" (in other words, keeping you two on the SAME TEAM addressing it as a team, not as individuals). 



> Today she went to IPsych and he told her she never needed to take that kind of abuse. She told me when she got home she couldn't live with that. I told her I was doing my best to get over the 20 years of cheating and 3 men and she needed to understand and accept that I would sometimes loose control.


Nope, not true. That is to say, you are telling her "because you cheated, I get a free pass to abuse you now and then" and that ain't gonna cut it. She does not have a pass to be unfaithful and you don't have a pass to emotionally harm her. HOWEVER, one of the costs to her of her choice to lie for 20 years is that your trust in her honesty is in the negative! She should not have to live with you emotionally hurting her, but you should not be expected to "trust her honesty" when she hasn't earned it either. So when she says "I can not live with that" rather than blaming her for your choice (which is EXACTLY what unfaithful people do to their loyal spouse) try this: "You're right you should not accept an emotionally harmful spouse, and that's not the man I intend to be. I'm imperfect and made a bad choice that was triggered by thinking the bill was hidden again. I hope you can understand how it happened and consider forgiving me, just as I am working through building trust in your honesty and forgiving you. It's not easy but working together we can get there." Again..put you and her on the same side...the same team...working together. And when you made a mistake just admit it was a mistake! 




> I feel as though I need to be cut a little bit of slack and more praised than bounced for a few events.


Little reality check here When she was ending contact with the OM, does she get a little bit of slack for "trying real hard" or having just a little contact? Nope. You don't get a little slack to emotionally hurt her either. I do get what you mean though--other folks would have heard "I've cheated for 20 years" and said "SEE YA!" and you have the moral fortitude to work at it! If she expects you to "be understanding" that she's dealing with guilt (for HER OWN CHOICES), it seems reasonable that you'd be able to expect her to "be understanding" that you're dealing with a lot of pain! BUT, you'll go a lot further if you two are on the same side and then you say, "Honey I would like to be transparent and share with you what it's like on my side, and my hope is that you'd maybe try to be a little understanding and help me deal with some of the pain you're past actions caused..." rather than emotionally attacking her and then saying, "Yeah but you should give me a free pass to hurt you! You hurt me!" See what I mean?



> She said she just can't handle it and is dealing with her problems from guilt and deserves consideration as well. I feel like she is telling me I can't ever get angry and I don't feel like there is ANY relationship out there that doesn't have strong arguments once in a while. She has said the hurt she has felt when I get mad is what drove her away. I responded that it was no excuse for her affair - she alone made the decision to go for comfort elsewhere and a sexual affair instead on asking for marriage counseling. I told her it has been hard to put it behind me and deal with it and thought I needed to commended for how well I was doing but I could never guarantee it wouldn't happen again.


See here's the issue: what you did was not a disagreement/argument. Disagreeing is when you think steak is tasty and she thinks steak is yucky...and then you each present WHY you believe what you believe, and maybe convince each other or maybe agree to disagree. What you did was choose to do a Love Extinguisher of Angry Explosion and Attack Dog. Then she said, "I will not accept love extinguishers" and now you want her to just let you do a love extinguisher now and then because of her past! Forgiveness is the process of ceasing to feel resentment, indignation or anger against another person for a perceived offense, difference or mistake, or *ceasing to demand punishment or restitution*. Sounds to me like you still expect her to pay (let me do love extinguishers to you)! So take a look and see if that's true--and if so work on yourself. But even if it is true, it's okay you know 8years. You're only human and this is REALLY hard, painful stuff. To me, it's seems reasonable to expect that on the occasion you're not going to do so well. 

And by the way, I do LOVE the part where you told her: _"I responded that it was no excuse for her affair - she alone made the decision to go for comfort elsewhere and a sexual affair instead on asking for marriage counseling."_ That was spot on...that wasn't your choice but HERS! However it does give you a little clue, or window into her soul. She's probably a lot like me; I would not say I'm passive and avoidant but I really do not like conflict much. It makes me feel sick to my stomach! Still when I notice that little "sick to my stomach" feeling that's my note to myself that something is "not okay with me" and I know right then that I need to speak up in an assertive way. So when you get mad, no matter what the reason, that probably scares her a LOT and hits her WAY, *WAY* harder than you realize. You may want to consider, whereas you may not think you're angry that much, she may be way more sensitive to it. I have a GREAT analogy for this. Envision a buffalo and a butterfly. If you put a little pebble on a buffalo, he barely realizes it's there and it doesn't really bother him in the least. But if you put a little pebble on a butterfly, it crushes her! She is damaged, she can't fly, and she may die! You are a buffalo--your wife is a butterfly. 



> My PTSD when it happens makes it impossible for me to shut down and walk away. I told her I would do my best to pull back and not text or email and would also have to stop talking until I settled down. I also told her I felt she need consider what was happening to me and comfort me not attack back like she did yesterday. Consider what was happening and not take it so personally which she always does and in the past ran away to the OM.


I have to disagree with you here, and I'll even give you an example. I have been diagnosed PTSD from physical abuse I experience as a child and in my first marriage. Well, that does not give me license to harm or abuse my current hubby! The other day he was upset with his computer (it was making weird noises and we just fixed it ) and I FREAKED OUT inside. I was really scared, and he felt really bad...but then I realized "Wait a minute. I'm acting on level 8 to a level 2 or 3 incident" and I realized my heart was just RACING. Ah ha! That wasn't him at all--that was a trigger and my PTSD "fear" was kicking in. And that didn't give me the right to be all defensive and abusive to him. It is MY thing, so it is MY job to learn how to recognize it's PTSD being set off, and it is MY job to learn techniques to soothe to triggery response, and it is MY job to communicate to Dear Hubby what's happening to me. 

See? I don't get free license to "lose it" on him. I am responsible to learn to recognize it, soothe myself, and protect him! 

This part is possibly close: "I also told her I felt she need consider what was happening to me and comfort me not attack back like she did yesterday." I would think it would be reasonable for her to recognize and admit that part of the cost of what she chose is that she has to do what she can to help you heal from the damage she did. BUT that doesn't mean she "makes you feel better." Nope, you communicate, "I'm having a trigger to not getting into the cell phone bill, and I'm asking if you'd be understanding as I try to work out what's real and what's a reaction to the past." 



> Am I expecting too much? I feel like this new psychiatrist is treating her alone and not considering the MC and R going on or what I've been through. We don't have another mC session until Monday and she is going to her Nieces for a babay shower this weekend. I feel like I did when things were real bad and don't think it can wait. She seems to think we need to resolve it at MC and stop talking about it. We will she when gets home later. I'm wound up tight and feel like I'm going to explode becuase it feels like she isn't committed even though she says she is.


Well...:rofl: the new psychiatrist IS treating her as an individual! The pdoc is not treating you or treating "the marriage" (like a marriage counselor would)--the pdoc is treating HER for HER STUFF. Now, it seems like it would be somewhat common sense to realize she's in a marriage and thus has a life partner....and that might change the dynamic some (like a single person might have privacy and secrecy maybe from a "boyfriend"...a married person would have privacy but not secrecy). Know what I mean? So that is kind of unrealistic to expect her individual counselor to treat her MARRIAGE. I would suggest one of two things: 1) if this is an emergency, contact the MARRIAGE counselor and tell 'em! It's urgent and that's what you're paying 'em the big bucks for! 2) maybe ask the pdoc to coordinate or have a courtesy meeting with the marriage counselor so they can have a plan of attack together and approach things in a fashion that unites rather than separates.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Thanks for the sage advice. I am truly going to work on how I respond the next time and make sure I don't do it in anger. I understand the hurt I caused her and have apologized though I will be more precise in that apology when she gets home in telling I know I did wrong and there is no excuse - I need to control my behaviour by taking the time to settle down and asking questions once I'm not over the edge. While it may seem inappropriate, the fact she had guilt and remorse continues to say to me that she is honestly back in love and regretting what she has done. Far different from thinking that it would never work. That is one thing we need to discuss, she keeps saying she doesn't think I can deal with it and get over it. That makes me angry because I'm trying so hard to do just that and have a lot to get over. I feel like she is just waiting for me to give up and after what I went through when she refused to give up on the affair, I do feel she owes me some serious respect and a strong belief that I'm not going anywhere. She has thanked me a number of times for rescuing her and I have responded that she saved me from from a life of pain if she had left forever. I will try to focus on Love and not pain and shield her from my anger - she truly does not deserve it. I'm really trying. I just dont think she has told her psych how hard. She need to focus on why she swung from loving me to hate to someone else all in the course of one argument. I am a professional negotiator and problem trouble shooter. I have a deep commanding voice that when I project it gets peoples attention and can incite fear easily. I do it for a living pulling my company out of serious problems and getting contractors to respond without lawsuits. The problem is, I don't realize quickly enough in conversations with my wife that I've shifted into that mode. I also can write a commanding disapproval letter the same way. It's gotten me promotions, praise and awards at work but it is not worth a **** with my wife and I know it. I will take your counsel whole heartedly and redouble my efforts. Thanks for you fast responses. By the way our MC just called and we are going in tomorrow night. I will suggest he consult with her I psych. I have also suggested she come my next IC appt and tell her side.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm going to be blunt here, and it will not show the "pretty" side of me, so are you ready?

When my (now) exH cheated, at first the reaction is that "hit by a bomb blast" feeling, right? Then deep pain that you keep wishing would just END!! And then there's a part of you that realizes you have work to do and some business to attend to just to survive and stay alive (like bills and kids, etc.) so some work is done and you begin to feel like you might survive. Then there's the struggle to let go of the image that you had of your marriage--the image that your spouse loved you and you had a happy family--which you can now tell is unrealistic! Then, at *some* point along the way, the idea of forgiving your spouse comes to mind. 

I'll be honest. I wanted to forgive him--I really did. I kept telling myself that I was going to, or that I had forgiven him. And I even practiced the same stuff I preach about doing one question a day. BUT one day I realized that if I REALLY FORGAVE him, that meant I had to let go of the "weapon" of saying, 'Oh yeah? Well YOU had an AFFAIR!'  I don't mean forget--I mean I had to volunteer to release it and not hold onto it, and honestly? I kind of wanted to hold onto that little "ace in the hole." If I let go of it, I couldn't wring my hands and dwell on the marriage's issues! I couldn't analyze every word and look for more counseling and ... stuff like that. It meant I had to give up my claim to injury. And I'm sorry to say I did hold onto it for a while. 

I know it hasn't been all that long for you yet, 8years, but I do hope you'll work toward that day when you let go of the past and look at how she's treating your today--right now--and look at the future together with her. I think it's coming and I hope for your sake, it comes sooner rather than later. (And remember that buffalo/butterfly thing  )


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I am trying very hard to look forward, focus on today and put the past behind me. I hit some serious triggers and my reaction was wrong. I now have plan to not repeat that mistake. I am not trying to hold that ace. I do think there needs to be some balance. She had told me she wanted to speak my feelings when they happened - no matter how harsh so she could help me. I now know she can't take that and I had told her I would perfer to do what I had been doing which was pull back and give myself time to sort it out, think and calm down. She didn't like that because I got too quiet and avoided her until I cooled down. I guess I'm saying we are still trying to find the right balance. I know what i did was very wrong and won't do it again or use PTSD as an excuse. I told her lst night she needs to find out with her psych how she could go from loving me, to hating me to going to someone else for support and sex all from one argument. I am not abusive. I get angry like most people do. I need to control it better. But any level of anger should not cause such a strong reaction in her. She has always been a very jeckle and hyde personality. With severe depression and some serious manic episodes. I insisted on the psychiatrist to try and get her meds stable and determine if she has some form of bipolar or other mood disfunctional disorder. I take abuse from her all the time and don't let it change my love her. She will hold onto onto a brief argument for days and brood and NOT work through it with me. I'm trying very hard and will continue to try harder. I just don't see her making those attempts or at least not nearly strong enough.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I am not trying to hold that ace. I do think there needs to be some balance. She had told me she wanted to speak my feelings when they happened - no matter how harsh so she could help me. I now know she can't take that and I had told her I would perfer to do what I had been doing which was pull back and give myself time to sort it out, think and calm down. She didn't like that because I got too quiet and avoided her until I cooled down.


I would like to point out again that I don't think it is the fact THAT you express your feelings, but the WAY that you express them. An emotion is a secondary thing, not primary. As such, it can be examined objectively - as in "What am I experiencing now?" This takes a great deal of effort because when you are in the midst of an emotion, you tend to want to act it out - leaving the thinking for later. 

I think the error made here (on both of your parts) was the idea that your wife would sit by calmly while you acted out your emotion - but then she found out that this is a very bad idea. 

I am guessing that what you both WANTED to do (which is both useful and necessary) was to make sure that what you are thinking and feeling are openly discussed. But note that discussion and acting on a feeling are not the same thing! 

So - take some time (and let her know this) where you actually practice 'clinically observing' yourself when an emotion occurs. Take note of 'I am feeling "X"' - and I want to do "Y" - but don't actually DO what you want. Over time, you will find yourself able to go back even farther (or start earlier in the process) and note the thoughts that are bringing up the emotive battle.

There's a remarkable style of therapy (R.E.B.T.) that is very good at helping you do this - here's a gist of it. (I've used it with others before and it has remarkable outcomes):

• A. (Activating event) Drunk people outside, making some noise.

• B. (irrational Belief (iB) I have about A) They MUST NOT make any noise.

• C. (Consequences of having those beliefs about A) When noisy drunk people pass in the street outside late at night and wake me up. I Feel angry. It feels bad. I lie awake feeling angry and upset and don't get back to sleep for a long time.

• D. (Dispute the irrational Beliefs (iB’s) in B by turning them into questions and answers) WHY shouldn't they make any noise- where is that commandment written in stone? Where is the evidence? Again, who made you Supreme Ruler of the Universe dictating how people Should or Must act? 

• E. (Effective new thinking- substitute something rational instead of B) Drunk people are often noisy, but it's no BIG deal. I don’t like it, but I can damn deal with what I don’t like. Maybe I will touch base with them in the morning (when they are sober).​
Now while this method has some limits, I hope you can see how it is helpful:

For example: 

you find an old, unsent love letter your wife wrote mid-affair and forgot to send (or throw away). 

You immediately tell yourself that she SHOULD NOT HAVE DONE THAT (so true!) and that THERE MUST BE A CONSEQUENCE! 

You grow extremely angry (in an instant, it seems!) - full of despair, irritation, hostility (in fact - all of the things you were taught to focus on when facing an enemy, which are now useless (hence the P.T.S.D.)) YOU can't think, you can't focus, all you want to do is fight fight fight.

Instead: say ABC...D....

and "D" dispute the belief: 'Why must there be a consequence?" Has she not already paid for this?, etc.

Then work on replacing your original belief with another one - perhaps "this was a horrid mistake my wife made, and we are working past this..." (or some other effective replacement.)

It does not come easy - for the main part, you have to be very diligent in catching yourself in part 'B' (in fact, analyze past occurrences, go over them as carefully as yo can - over time you will learn the thoughts that precede the emotional sensations...

Still - it gives you something quite constructive to do, and the end result is quite healthy....


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Yep--you go honey! 

And speaking as a person who deals effectively with PTSD here is what a typical ABCDE looks like for me: 


A. (*Activating* event) Dear Hubby got upset with his computer for making noises.

B. (irrational *Belief* (iB) I have about A)[/B] He's mad at me!

C. (*Consequences* of having those beliefs about A) When is mad at me, I get hurt. I feel afraid. My heart races and I have an adrenalin reaction. I can't sleep and I relive the past. 

_**USUALLY it's right about here that I catch the physical symptoms and I'm able to identify it as a Post-Traumatic reaction.**_


D. (*Dispute *the irrational Beliefs (iB’s) in B by turning them into questions and answers) Is he really made at me? Has he said he's mad at me? Is the scary thing happening in the present or a memory of the past? 

_**Usually for me, as I answer these questions and realize it's not happening in the present, I do a very specific self-soothe technique to bring me back HERE to the present: I very deliberately use my senses. So I will take note of the pattern of the quilt on the bed, notice the smell of the dinner cooking in the oven, feel my warm cup of coffee or reach out and touch Dear Hubby, specifically note the music that's playing and enjoy it for a second. Using senses in the present brings me back to the present and pulls me out of the past**_


E. (*Effective *new thinking- substitute something rational instead of B) I am in no danger now. I'm completely safe and he is not mad at me at all. In fact, it's just some mild annoyance at the computer because we've had to fix it recently. This really is not a big deal.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

I just want to say that your feelings are normal and justified, and love buster or not, there is a limit to what a person can cope with. So don't be too hard on yourself. Her reaction to you is immature and selfish but she's probably not able to really empathize. Her psychologist is also not on your side, so don't look to him for help. 

That all said: It sounds like you are the more stable of the two of you and this inequity is bound to be there forever. 

AC and Pete have good strategies for coping with your feelings, but you'll need to accept at some point that she's not going to be able to help you through this. You're going to heal on your own, probably largely despite her actions, not because of them. 

I'd give you the advice not to put too much pressure on yourself with "love busters" and aiming for perfection. My experience is pretty similar to yours, and I found I drove myself crazy trying to get it right. Once I stopped, I got much happier. I also let go of being attached to an outcome. So if the marriage succeeded, great. If not, oh well.

In a situation like yours where you have a spouse who is unwilling, or unable, to really do the things you need done, AND your high desire to succeed in reconciling, you need to give something up - either attachment or justice. 

If you give up attachment, you can act truthfully, communicate without fear, and let your hurt show.

If you give up justice, you suck up whatever feelings you have, and adopt the "love buster" filter to smooth things over.

But you can't have both, I'm afraid.


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## cb45 (Oct 2, 2009)

good stuff as usual from AC/TP.

only thing i get from quickie read here is that barring psych 
diagnosis re: yer W, She should cut u some slack for yer 
little (?) outburst, unless u were over the top in any way
cussing etc. i think AC hinted at this.

o/wise i'd be concerned bout her copping "the guilty plea" stuff.

then again, i'd be concerned re: 20yrs, 3guys, and a whole lotta
cheatin, lying, hiding-secrecy affecting both our feelings/love
trust, other issues etc.

but thats just me.

shalom...........


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

The latest from my wife is that I am being too controlling and degrading by checking on her whereabouts when i'm worried or scared. It has helped me to build confidence when I can check and things are as she has told me. An exception happened this week when she went to a salon about 45 mins away. It was only supposed to take 1-1/2 hours. When it became 4 with no response from her I texted her I was scared that she was meeting someone. I can understand from her side that she has been up front and promises she is never going to do anything again and I shouldn't be so controlling nor accusing. On my side, I feel like I need more time to build my confidence and her chafing is something she will have to live with until my confidence returns. I will not accuse anymore. I will never stop expecting transparency and communication of her schedule and whereabouts. I feel the situation the other night could have been easily avoided by a quick text telling me the appt was going to take 2.5 hours longer or at least some estimate. I don't think is She isunderstanding my concerns and trying to help. How can I communicate that to her gently? Side note, it's only been 2 months since she committed to stop seeing the OM and started doing so. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Have you bought "surviving an affair" by Harley. 

You and your wife should read this , you as a BS you require full transparency she as the WS should give this to you willingly without question.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I think I have it and have read it. Asked her though doubt she has. Will remind her.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Am I expecting too much?


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

No you aren't expecting too much, you are settling if anything. There is a very clear process of reconciliation: Disclosure, no contact, transparency, and empathy from the wayward spouse. But you are expecting more than she is willing to give right now. Until she values you and the relationship more, she's going to push back on transparency or anything that makes her uncomfortable. 

Perhaps it's time to do a 180.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

OK, given that you both know she violated your trust and cheated incredibly cruelly and it has resulted in lack of trust and PTSD on your part, two things have to occur to move forward.

1. You need to find a way to fix your PTSD reactions. You need a better coping mechanism than peppering her with angry insecurities once triggered.

2. The both of you need to actively identify every single account/password there is in your life and share them. And alert each other if the password must be changed (a good practice, btw, to change them periodically). Get the cell phone vendor, email, etc. This way you don't have to let your insecurity rise on the fears. You can check things and stay calm.

Yes, she treated you badly for an extended period of time and you are permanently changed and not for better. Knowing this is power towards fixing that.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Thanks for the change in focus. I am working on the reactions, they are getting fewer and fewer. The trigger I was asking about was near the bottom of the thread and how she was reacting to some of the checking I do. michzz - what do think of that question.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

> The latest from my wife is that I am being too controlling and degrading by checking on her whereabouts when i'm worried or scared. It has helped me to build confidence when I can check and things are as she has told me. An exception happened this week when she went to a salon about 45 mins away. It was only supposed to take 1-1/2 hours. When it became 4 with no response from her I texted her I was scared that she was meeting someone.


First, I'm going to refer you to my newest thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...ping-your-disloyal-you-being-controlling.html

Second, I have to admit I tend to side with your wife on this one, that the way you treat her is controlling and disrespectful. However, she tends to want 100% trust in her honesty when she hasn't earned it and is unwilling to put in the effort TO earn it! Nonetheless, her bad choices do not justify you making a bad choice too (i.e., controlling) so just to clean up your side of the street, there is a difference between identifying for your equal partner wife that something is "not okay with you" and jumping to conclusions and accusing her before you know any facts!!

Here's where you derail: "... It was only supposed to take 1-1/2 hours. When it became 4 with no response from her I texted her I was scared that she was meeting someone." Did she tell you it would be 1 1/2 hours or DID YOU DETERMINE that was how long she had? Did she have to come to you for permission? Did she have to "report to you"? Would you go to her for permission? Would you let her determine "you have X amount of time to complete this task or I'm accusing you of Y?" Would you be willing to report to her? Then why would you treat the woman you love that way? So let's assume the best. The two of you discussed together that she thought the appointment would be 1 1/2 hours. (If the place was 45 minutes away, that actually makes no sense. It would be 1 1/2 hours just to drive there and turn around and drive back...with no time for the salon to work. But let's assume it was 45 min. for driving to and fro and 45 min. for the styling.) Okay so she's at the salon and her purse and phone are not near the styling chair. The stylist says "Oh I need to set this and you'll be under the dryer for 20 min." She doesn't have a way to get to you...or they are chatting away innocently. Now you make the assumption she is lying again, with no facts to support that, and then accuse her based on your own assumption made out of fear! You are making her responsible for your feelings!

There's where you crossed from "equal partner speaking the truth" to "controlling partner." 

If she estimated 1 1/2 hours and it was 4, it is reasonable for you to wonder what happened, to feel afraid, and for it to not be okay with you. But the way to express that it's "not okay" is not to try to control her, accuse her, and place responsibility for your behavior at her feet (i.e, you chose to be afraid, you chose to make her responsible for your feelings, and you chose to be controlling). Nope. YOU chose to act in a controlling way, and that's yours to deal with! 

A healthy way to deal with it would be W-T-F-S: 
"*When* you...
I *Think*...
I *Feel*...
*So* I'm going to request...."
A request means that she is 100% free to say "No; I'm not willing to do that." But if she does say no, then ask her to tell you what she IS willing to do or brainstorm together. 

Here's an example: 
_"*When you* tell me that your appointment will be less than 2 hours and it turns out to be more than 4
*I Think* 'Oh no here we go again' and wonder where in the world you are and think maybe you're lying to me again
*I Feel* scared, vulnerable, worried, confused, distressed, and unloved
*So I'm going to request* that if you go somewhere and will be delayed by more than half an hour, that you'd give me a text and let me know where you are. Would you be willing to agree to that?"_

That format identifies the behavior that's not okay with you, shares with her your thoughts and your feelings without assigning them to her, and makes a request that would work for you and would fix it for you. It shows respect because she's free to choose and your equal.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I spent a lot of time thinking about this over the weekend and like I said in my original post, I know I was wrong to accuse. The 1-1/2 hours was the appointment only not travel time and it was her estimate when she left. I was also worried becasue it was snowing heavily and the roads were terrible. Again I was wrong to accuse and apologized for doing so this weekend. We also made an agreement that neither of us would text or email feelings or issues anymore because it is so wide open to misinterpretation. Talk only and preferably face to face. I explained to her that it occurs like a spiral to me. I start worrying and when I can't contact her, I start worrying some more. I explained that a brief text explaining it was going to take a lot longer would have brought me back on stable ground in an instant. So with the no texting or emailing feelings rule, I will no longer text something like that accusation. I will also talk it out with her and not accuse when we can talk. She will try to understand my fears and let me know when an appointment runs that long. We are also going to establish a user name, password and security question list for everything this week so I can get access to accounts to do business or whatever. I as my MC put it, am going to take a chance and trust her to do the right thing and work at stopping my checking up on her. Like I said, checking and finding nothing raises my trust and reduces my fears so I'll have to just take chance without that reinforcement. ANother example of her feeeling watched was me asking her about a name on her facebook. I explained to her that she had a habit before of hiding his numbers and email addresses under false names and I was concerned a alias was being used to keep in touch. Once she told me who it was, I told her my fears were shut down. I asked that since this was so recent, she try to just answer and give me time. This type of question would reduce dramatically because there was very little left for me to question. I think she was ok with that. 

Hard work, but still pushing myself to think about how she feels before I open mouth and insert foot. I know avoiding spur of the moment response in email and texts will help.

Thanks again Affaircare.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Hate to say it. I've been asking myself a lot lately if I should stay married. There are so many things that she can do that I can't see or detect that the A could still be going on and I would never know it. Just like I haven't for the last 20 years and three men. I can't seem to get myself to accept that she has changed though I think I see it in her. She deceived me for so long, I don't what was real and what wasn't over the last 20 years. I keep asking myself how someone could love you and then hate you enough to go to the OM and then love you again all while lying constantly. I don't know if I can ever trust her again. I haven't voiced this to her. I won't unless I decide I'm done. I'm trying very hard to follow my MC's advice to just take a chance and quit beating myself up over it. I'm going to talk to my IC about it this week. When i have asked her how she could do this, her only answer has been that she would get mad about something I said or done and head for the OM. I asked why she didn't divorce me 20 years ago or anytime in between and her answer was the kids. So I feel as if I've been used for 20 years. I had directly asked a number of times 20 years ago if anything was going on because I suspected and was told no. I even asked when my third daughter was born after I had a non-reversible vasectomy and was told no. Now she can't tell me for sure if she is mine. I've told her, my daughter is my daughter regardless but there may come a time when paternity will have to be proven - like a medical emergency where I need to be a donor.

So - taking a chance is a big leap of faith I'm having a very hard time doing. Any suggestions anyone?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> Hate to say it. I've been asking myself a lot lately if I should stay married. There are so many things that she can do that I can't see or detect that the A could still be going on and I would never know it. Just like I haven't for the last 20 years and three men. I can't seem to get myself to accept that she has changed though I think I see it in her. She deceived me for so long, I don't what was real and what wasn't over the last 20 years. I keep asking myself how someone could love you and then hate you enough to go to the OM and then love you again all while lying constantly. I don't know if I can ever trust her again. I haven't voiced this to her. I won't unless I decide I'm done. I'm trying very hard to follow my MC's advice to just take a chance and quit beating myself up over it. I'm going to talk to my IC about it this week. When i have asked her how she could do this, her only answer has been that she would get mad about something I said or done and head for the OM. I asked why she didn't divorce me 20 years ago or anytime in between and her answer was the kids. So I feel as if I've been used for 20 years. I had directly asked a number of times 20 years ago if anything was going on because I suspected and was told no. I even asked when my third daughter was born after I had a non-reversible vasectomy and was told no. Now she can't tell me for sure if she is mine. I've told her, my daughter is my daughter regardless but there may come a time when paternity will have to be proven - like a medical emergency where I need to be a donor.
> 
> So - taking a chance is a big leap of faith I'm having a very hard time doing. Any suggestions anyone?


I’m not at all surprised by your last post. I’m more or less in the same situation but for different reasons. I suspected my wife of deceiving me and lying to me for quite a while but I had no proof. Now that she’s lied to the courts of England under oath and on the Bible I tell myself she’d have no problem deceiving and lying to me. So I accept that my wife is a liar. It is hard for me to accept the truth of that or not to make excuses for her. But a liar is a liar. It’s simple but oh so hard to accept.

Now I haven’t a clue what was authentic in my marriage and what was a lie and I was married a very long time. But unlike your good self I am no longer with my wife. She deceived me one too many times and I’d no longer tolerate it. I’m in a good place now. But I know I could not get to where I am if my wife was still with me. There’s a lot of grieving to do not only about the past but about the future we once envisaged as well.

I don’t know how you can do that grieving while you are still with your wife. I just don’t know how you can do it. There is a lot of anger in a man to be worked through when this sort of thing happens to him. And your wife being constantly in your presence one way or another will give you many triggers for your anger. Anger is a most natural, basic emotion and it’s there for self defence for a person who has been woefully abused. Just be careful what you do with that anger.

Personally I think you need to be separated from your wife for at least six months to work your way through the grief of what you have lost in your past and what you thought the future with your wife was going to be. And when you are through your grief you’ll be in a much better position to know what to do next.

Bob


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

AFEH, I have not separated from wife and am not sure I want to. I seem to bounce into considering if I want to stay every couple of days. Some days are good, some bad. I'm curious from someone who did reconcile, how were you able to get the confidence it would work out. Or was it ever a question?


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Anyone who has reconciled?


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

*Anyone who has reconciled - please give me your opinions*

Anyone who has reconciled - please give me your opinions on my question?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

It was a long while ago but we reconciled and spent the next 31 years together.

But my situation was nothing like yours, it bears no comparison at all. I know I couldn’t cope if my wife had been cheating on me for 20 years. I wouldn’t be able to cope with it. I’d need to get away and rediscover myself because I would have been so seriously systematically abused and deluded about what I thought the last 20 years were all about. I just don’t see how you can rebuild yourself while still living with your wife.


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## cb45 (Oct 2, 2009)

wow, too much.

i agree w/ afeh on this one. i mean c'mon man, 20yrs worth
of deception. i wont elaborate as many have here already,
including yerself.

i'm surprised some "mature" folk posted pro WS material here
tho'.....very surprised.

if i were a MC counseling you, i'd say some of what u r already
dealing with. anger outbursts; trust issues; how to deal with
'em etc. no guilt nec to HEAP upon you, in addition to what u
r already dealing with. I'd place spirituality as key to yer peace
of mind, survival, and overcoming this tragic experience.

if i were her MC, i'd be getting at IF she is truly sorry/repentent
for what she did to you, herself, the Union, and most of all, God.

if she indeed were, her actions/deeds would show it, not just a
lot of LIP Service, like so many do. I'd tell her she needs to have a heart of understanding towards you and yer anger-pain-trust related outbursts. instead of her reacting to them, she could use trigger phrases you've both agreed upon, to relieve the tension of the moment.

if she were'nt really sorry/repentant for deceiveing you, then 
we would have to investigate the whys/why not. in fact, we'd
have to investigate this area even if she were sorry/repent for
it could raise its ugly head again or in other harmful ways.

i think, unless u were some kinda control freak/tyrant or some such, the balance of "the to do list" should be on the WS not the victim. Not that u dont have some work yerself to do, but
i'm sick of reading here from some folk that the BS has to 
carry the load on too many fronts cause the Marriage almost
becomes like a sacred cow itself, and must be maintained at any
cost, when one party is willing to SUFFER the ordeal.

i think that is a recipie for disaster, to the BS, that is.
Marriage must be consentual, if not perfectly balanced at all
times.

[key note: i banged this out. no prior drafts. hope i covered major angles here. if u shoot, shoot straight...lol]

shalom............


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

It was certainly spirituality that helped heal my soul, mainly through Buddhism with a little bit of Christianity in the mix. Whatever works and it can take some searching to find what works. And time. Time is a great healer but it does depend a lot on what we do with it. I hope 8years finds the path into the light out of the jungle he’s in.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I have been following your thread and I feel a sense of outrage at what you are being asked to do by your therapists. I agree with cb45 tha you are carrying the emotional burden of a deception that lasted throughout your entire marriage. She had essentially had two relationships for 20 years, one for children, financial support and convience and one to meet her emotional and sexual needs. During those years, you, her steadfast and trusting spouse, had only her to rely on. I think she is with you for convience still. Her reactions to your suffering is cruel and cold in nature it seems. She is not willing to endure any suffering or to help you get through your suffering and it has only been a few months!! 

Why do you make yourself available for her convience still. she can't even be bothered to comfort you that shows how little she regards your feelings. About as little as she has ever regarded them. I don't put much stock in therapist if their goals are not consistent with your's as an individulal. It is almost as if the marriage is more important than you. That's not true the, union is as good as the people forming it and the way I see it you have no union. 

I understand your unwillingness to face this full on but I think the woman you are married to does not love you enough to think you feelings are important. She is more concerned with herself and her comfort. I don't think she respects you because she has been able to pull the wool over your eyes for so long and she is still enjoying your support and devotion. What a life she has had, prety good for a heartless deceptive woman. The advice you are getting about trusting a naturally deceptive person as the height of stupidity. You are the wounded party however you are being asked to carry all of the emotional pain. I don't get the feeling she has had a moment of real regret or suffering, I'll bet she is congratulating herself on getting away with the ultimate deception and being married to a gullible trusting man. Why are you being chastised for making her life difficult? It is unbelievable, you are nothing, she is every thing why is that? 

I am sorry if this offends you but I feel so angry when I read of you struggle and I cannot stay silent. The person you love is really not the person she is, she never was that person. I think you have still not fully digested the full scope of what has happened and that you should not recommit so easily to staying married. I don' think you have experienced true love and it would be good if you could in your life. Why are you trying so hard to keep this together? Surely not for love, love is a two way street. I don't get a sense she loves you now or has ever done, so why are you keeping up this fiction? I can see why she would but I don't understand what you get out of it. 

Nothing is written in stone and I think you don't have to tell her that you are exploring leaving, she does not need to know.until you have made up your mind and I don't think you shoul make up your mind so soon. In fact, instead of being so vigilant with her, disengage and be totally selfish and go out and explore life. Get out and see what new things you would like to do. Relieve the suffering by self care doing things away from her building a separate life from her. You may find that after a time, you do not want her. If you leave you will not suffer any more than you are now but, you have the advantage of starting anew away from a deceptive person who very well may decide that you are too much trouble and leave. Become more misterious and treat her in a more offhand way. Get new clothes, work out, get new interest. Take the focus fro her and bring it back to you. If you divorce you have the chance to meet someone who loves and appreciates you and can offer you some splice in the years to come. 

I see no future with the women you are married to. She deceived you before and she likely to fall into the same pattern when thing quite down, I think you stand a good chance of years of sorrow and uncertainty because she is a good liar. I think you will come to regret you chioce to stay because you will never get the love and reassurence you are looikng for with her. Is not the uncertainty of a life without her better than one with her constant presence and possibility of deception? Take you time and think this through, look at the future with her, what you have now is what you will have in the future it will only get worse with time she will be back up to her antics in a year or two when she thinks she has you docile again. Is she worth it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Catherine I agree she has been self centered and not sufficiently understanding and supportive of what I'm going through. I also will not let my feeling become a crutch for hurting her by hammering her on the affair. I still have my moments where I wonder if I made the right decision to R. I look back on 20 years of this and three men and ask myself what was real and what wasn't in terms of how much she loved me. I can't reconcile that she loved me at all and that I was just being used as provider and caretaker. I also know she could go deep underground using prepaid phones and I would never be able to detect it. All I can do is what my MC suggested - take a chance and believe she honestly does not want to back living a lie. She has told me she can't answer why she kept it up so long except that she never believed she would be caught so didn't really think she was hurting me because I didn't know and she didn't think I ever would. She also told me she seriously considered suicide several times because her guilt made her feel like the most evil person for carrying on. She is seeing a psychiatrist to try and get her depression (which I think is bipolar) under control. She says she regrets it all and wishes she could take it all back. She also says she understands the destruction she caused me and is now backing off on telling me she feels accused when I ask questions because she understands it's going to take a very long time to rebuild my trust in her. She also understands she needs to be extra loving to keep me strong and must watch for my times when I hit triggers and talk me down. If she hadn't turned this way recently, I was ready to walk away. So things are doing better but still a daily struggle for me. I know the person she was during this affair is not the person I loved - it never will be. All I can do is watch and hope what she tells me is real. Now that I know the behaviors she exhibits when she is unfaithful - hindsight is better than 20/20 - it's much clearer now - I think I can detect it if it starts going off track again. There will be no third chance. If it even starts going back off track she will be gone from this house and my life and she knows it.

So - I appreciate your support very much Catherine. Here I sit praying she is on the right course and starting to support the way I need to be to be supported and deserve to be.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I so much hope she is loving you very much; you diserve the best there is. I am concerned though that you are not asking enough nor expecting enough. You are the injured party, if she is too self centered to see that then she will never see it. 

I am going to play devils advocate and say to please keep in mind that you have many years more in a relationship with a person who is capable of deception if she thinks she won't be found out. That means she has no internal moral compass to control her actions. There is no telling what she will do in the years to come when you have decreased your vigilance and she is tempted. 

I understand your being careful because she says she is depressed. Usually, people with bipolar disorder are medicated, has her physician put her on meds? If she is on no medication then I doubt if she has a serious depression or bipolar disorder. Remember, if she is telling you this and you have not communicated with her physician then you have only the word of a habitual liar. You only have her word that she was suicidal. Telling you that shift the sympathy meter away from you and to her which is manipulative. You don't know if she really felt that way or just saying that for the affect that it has on a caring loving man.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I am asking for what I need and after a long talk Sun AM, I think she is beggining to understand how severely all of this has affected me. She said she understands she is going to have help me come down or pull me back up if I start feeling either afraid or severely unhappy because of triggers or thinking about what has happened. She also seems to be getting that she will have to not take my explaining how I feel as an attack, to control her or to accuse. I will choose my words carefully. She will need to consider that I am on edge and needs to be ahead of the game talking me down - my suggestion to her. She voiced twice that afternoon (while crying) that she was so sorry for tearing me up and that she is going to do everything she can to help me heal. I feel positive and much more like I'm not alone dealing with it. My IC supported my efforts and told me he thought I was doing amazingly well. I've suggested the MC , her IC and mine all talk. I'm also going to ask some questions of her IC - like - is he trained in MC? Has he made any determination based on her hard cycling from deep depression to the "all me" behaviour which I feel is manic? What is his diagnosis at this point? Does he plan any medication changes?And finally the suggestion about cross communication between the MC and my IC and him. We will see what happens.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

It's another one of those days. I'm grieving the fact that wife hated me for 20 years enough to do this in spite of my stupidity for completely trusting her and being very much in love. I now see the times clearly when her hate was at it's peak. Why she didn't want to make love or cuddle. 20 years of my life when I could have built a relationship with a woman who truly loved me instead of being used. My wife keeps saying put it behind me and she has done just that . It wasn't her life she controlled it was mine without my knowledge and it's a hell of a lot harder to put it behind me than it is for her. I think she gets it to degree, but not enough. Goig to the range to burn off some anger and distract myself from this pain..


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## ShootMePlz! (Oct 5, 2008)

Have you settled the paternity issue with your last child or all of them since it went on for so long?


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I've decided my youngest is my daughter regardless and am not going to test. If it ever comes to a medical emergency then I'll have the test done. In any case she is my daughter and the OM will never know if she isn't.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Blood test doesn't make a father the relationship does!. Hope you had some center mass hits to blow off that steam. Don't blame yourself with stupidity though, definitly not your fault. She made the decision not you. You remained true to the core and values from everything you say. It is easy to believe until you have a reason not to. I even doubt if my W is going to work at times now.
I will in my case accept our M was not perfect but I will not accept that the A was my fault, she made the choice, nobody forces the disloyals to do what they do. In my case my W most certainly could have directly expressed to me everything she confided and complained about to OM. Then I wouldn't be here.
You are doing more than your share to fix it IMHO. If it were me I do not think I could do the same as you. You are mentally strong for this. In order to work through it you must be. We all have our limits your threshold is extremely high from what you post and what you are dealing with.
From all I have read about the A chemistry she probably did not truly hate you. The hate was probably some distorted emotion because she knew what she was doing was wrong.
So hang in there.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I'm trying. Right now after some time to cool off, I relaize it's one of the questions I'll never be bale to answer and neither will she. One of those things I ahve to have the serenity to accept that I can't change it. I have hand shakes I never had before. Despite that, using Springfield Armory Trophy Match 45 at 20 yards, I grouped 6" in man target in the head and orange square in the chest with (2) 8 round clips in 22 seconds - the fastest the range will allow and probably a bit too fast for their taste! The guy next to me stopped and said "holy ****, who are you pissed off at?" You can guess who I was thinking of  I have a new Alessi Body Guard shoulder rig for it and a CPL. I haven't worn it but twice when I'm headed to the war zone areas of the city. I don't have enough confidence in my self control to wear it where I might run into the *******. I've fantasized about turning him into a woman.

Thanks for the support Disbelief - keep the faith!


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

8Years, the behavior you describe -- verbal abuse, Jeckle and Hyde instant mood changes, and irrational arguments -- are several traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). I therefore suggest that you read about the nine BPD traits to see if your W's behavior seems to exhibit most of them at a strong level. 

You will not be able to tell whether they are so severe as to meet 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full blown BPD. Only professionals can make that determination. But you will be able to determine whether most of the red flags (i.e., the strong traits) are present because, after you've been living with a woman for many years, it is easy to spot such strong traits when they occur. There is nothing subtle or nuanced about traits such as verbal abuse and black-white thinking.


8yearscheating said:


> I told her lst night she needs to find out with her psych how she could go from loving me, to hating me to going to someone else for support and sex all from one argument.... She has always been a very jeckle and hyde personality with severe depression and some serious manic episodes.


This behavior -- where a woman can flip in 10 seconds from adoring you to hating you -- is usually due to black-white thinking, one of the hallmarks of BPDers (i.e., those having strong BPD traits). It occurs when a BPDer categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" -- and will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other based solely on an idle comment or minor infraction. BPDers do this because they are extremely uncomfortable with mixed feelings, paradoxes, and gray areas.


> I insisted on the psychiatrist to try and get her meds stable and determine if she has some form of bipolar or other mood dysfunctional disorder.


As an initial matter, I urge you to meet -- for a few sessions at least -- with your OWN psychologist (without your W present) to obtain a candid professional opinion on what you are dealing with. Remember, your W's psychologist is NOT your friend. He is bound by professional ethics to treat and protect HER. Hence, when a spouse seems to be exhibiting strong BPD traits, relying on advice from your W's psychologist during a marriage is the equivalent of relying on the advice of her attorney during a divorce. Just don't do it. It is important to protect yourself.

Instead, go to your own psychologist and describe the situation. As I've explained in other threads, there are many reasons why professionals are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer client the name of her disorder. They generally believe it is in her best interests not to be told. The reasons have to do with the associated stigma, the near certainty that the client will terminate therapy, and the lack of insurance coverage for BPD. In light of this reluctance to tell the clients, there is virtually no chance you would ever be told in the event your W actually is a high functioning BPDer.

As to your suspicions that she has a bipolar disorder, I will share my experiences from 15 years of taking care of my bipolar foster son and BPDer exW. I found that there are several clear differences between the two disorders. One difference is seen in the frequency of mood changes. Bipolar mood swings are very slow because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. They are considered rapid if as many as four occur in a year. In contrast, four BPD mood changes can easily occur in four days. 

A second difference is seen in duration. Whereas bipolar moods typically last a week or two, BPD rages typically last only a few hours (and rarely as long as 36 hours). A third difference is seen in the speed with which the mood change develops. Whereas a bipolar change typically will build slowly over two weeks, a BPD change typically occurs in less than a minute -- often in only 10 seconds -- because it is event-triggered by some innocent comment or action.

A fourth difference is that, whereas bipolar can cause people to be irritable and obnoxious during the manic phase, it does not rise to the level of meanness and vindictiveness you see when a BPDer is splitting you black. That difference is huge: while a manic person may regard you as an irritation, a BPDer can perceive you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly.

Finally, a fifth difference is that a bipolar sufferer -- whether depressed or manic -- usually is able to trust you if she knows you well. Untreated BPDers, however, are unable to trust for an extended period -- even though they sometimes may claim otherwise. This lack of trust means there is no foundation on which to build a relationship. Moreover -- and I learned this the hard way -- when a person does not trust you, you can never trust them because they can turn on you at any time -- and almost certainly will.

Yet, despite these five clear differences between the two disorders, many people confuse the two. The primary source of this confusion seems to be the fact that a significant portion of BPD sufferers also have the bipolar disorder.


> I take abuse from her all the time and don't let it change my love her.


As I said above, verbal abuse is one of the hallmarks of having strong BPD traits. Significantly, this is not due to BPDers being "mean people." Their problem is not being "mean" but, rather, being unstable. Because the vast majority of BPDers are high functioning, they usually get along very well with business associates, casual friends, and complete strangers. Indeed, many HF BPDers are generous and compassionate toward those folks. The reason is that such people pose no threat to a BPDer. There is no threat of abandonment (i.e., no LTR to be abandoned) and no threat of engulfment (i.e., no intimacy to cause the suffocating feeling of losing one's identity). This is why it is common to see a BPDer be kind and generous with strangers all day long and then go home at night to abuse the very people who love her.


> She will hold onto onto a brief argument for days and brood and NOT work through it with me.


With their loved ones, BPDers generally are only interested in creating drama, not in finding solutions. The drama, as I've explained in other threads, is necessary to support the BPDer's false self image of being "the victim," always the victim. I caution that all of us occasionally exhibit all nine of the BPD traits -- at a low level if we are emotionally healthy. 

At issue, then, is not whether your W has the nine traits. Of course she does. We all do. Rather, the issue is whether she has most of them at such a strong level that they are undermining your marriage. I don't know the answer to that question. I therefore am encouraging you to read more about the traits and to verify your judgement by seeking an opinion from your own psychologist.

If this discussion rings a bell, 8Years, I also suggest that you read my overview of BPD traits in Blacksmith's thread. My three posts there start at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-complicated-marriage-dynamic.html#post358403. If you have any questions about this discussion, I would be glad to try to answer them or point you to professional articles that can answer them. Take care, 8Years.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Thanks Uptown. Unfortunately I don't see my IC right now. I did have him go through an interview with me on her about bipolar and he said she exhibited definite traits. Her psychiatrist did not agree. She ahs been seeing him for about 9 months now. I will read up on it and suggest it to her. Right now she is very stable and has been for about 7 months. None of the severe swings. I think the stress of the A had really gotten to her until discovery and then she had a real hard time taking ownership and forgiving herself - also way off the charts in terms of stress. I'm not dismissing what your tellling and will research more, I just don't see those traits now or for the last number of months. Again thanks.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> Right now she is very stable and has been for about 7 months. None of the severe swings. ... I'm not dismissing what your tellling and will research more, I just don't see those traits now or for the last number of months.


8Year, I am glad to hear that things have improved in your marriage. The lack of stability would be most evident as the Jeckle and Hyde behavior you described earlier -- where she loves you for a week or two and then, in a few seconds, flips to hating or devaluing you based on a comment or minor infraction. Yet, because you've not seen that behavior for 7 months, it seems extremely unlikely your W was ever exhibiting a pattern of strong BPD traits. 

IME, such traits simply do not disappear for 7 months (except for the infatuation period at the outset of the relationship). They are deeply embedded in early childhood and start showing themselves by the teens, when the person is trying to form LTRs outside the family. In contrast, bipolar moods typically will disappear for months -- or even a full year -- at a time. And, of course, you W may have neither of those problems. Her mood changes could simply have been a reaction to the painful events surrounding her affair, as you now suspect.

In any event, I suggest that you NOT tell your W about such traits. Even if she has a strong pattern of them -- which seems highly unlikely at this point -- it is something that only a professional should discuss with her (and, as I mentioned, a psych likely would not mention the disorder to a HF BPDer by name).


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Thanks uptown I'll keep it in mind though.


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

Tanelornpete said:


> PTSD means that you experience very strong emotional reactions, and your military training has habituated you into rage as a response. But you are a man, and strong enough to survive. You can make choices!.


8 years, I don't mean to threadjack, but I want to examine this a little. Today is the first time I have read this thread, I believe. I see where the advice you were giving me came from. You have struggled with the same things I was/am struggling with. 

I do have an issue with rage. I was in the military. That sentence resonates strongly with me. That is an issue I need to work on for myself. Tanelornpete, thank you for posting such wisdom.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

That is precisely why I say do no harm and take a time out to get your anger under control. I have a very commanding voice and a take charge demeanor to go with a quick temper. The combination of the three can make someone like my wife who avoids conflict and is hurt easily because she feels she can't defend herself from me fold up and walk away resentful usually right into the arms of the OM. It took a lot of work on my part to calm down and engage brain before mouth. I can still be commanding without changing my tone - it's what I say that I had to work on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

8:

Catherine is right. You are the wronged one; you set the conditions for recovery. Whatever you need to feel safe in the relationship, you should demand, and she should willingly comply.

She has no right to say that you are being controlling; you are protecting your marriage.

There is not 1 man in 100 that would put up with this behavior, and she needs to understand that your anger and grief must be addressed if the marriage is to survive.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Lovesherman - my thread is old, some old friends and some new ones recently revived it with new posts. An update - we are now about 8 months since D-day. I did set the terms and she has been very helpful and 1005 compliant in NC and helping me through my triggers and feelings. She has been in IC and I was for about 4 months. Both of us have been in MC. We have made fantastic progress and are like a couple of teenagers madly in love again. I still have triggers by the fading more and more and are only about 1 every month or two - serious ones that is. I still think about the A but am trying to move into the future and put it behind me. My wife now understands that her reactions early on - the controlling crap, the painting me and and our relationship with a very black brush were all her justifications and she no longer feels that way. She has made very good progress identifying why she did what she in iC. I on the other hand have changed the behavior I had that made her vulnerable by severely weakening our marriage. My anger, my harsh voice and word, some serious bad habits, etc. So all is much better now. Here's hoping we go into the future as well as it has been going!!!


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Great update.

No mater what the future holds for your marriage, you can rest easy that you have always been faithful, and fought hard for it with no regrets. Unfortunately the same can't be said about your wife - or my ex-wife for that mater. She has to learn to look at herself in the mirror and not recoil with disgust at the woman she sees looking back at her.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I guess that is one real reason for our success so far. I made a requirement that she goto IC with a psychiatrist that did threapy as well and not just meds. He has completely changed her meds and I know that helped significantly becuase she has ahd depression problems as long as I've known her. Part of the requirement with the IC was that she explore why she was able to do what she did and what drove her to it and how she could overcome those same feelings and prevent this from happening again. SO far she has determined that it was a learned flight response from conflict from her childhood in a family of 11 kids. She learned to run from conflict and not try to resolve it becuase her parents were too busy to intercede. All of her sisters have the same issues. There is also a history of depression in her family. Last but not least a feeling of abandonment or being left to fend to for herself. She feel deeply in love with me after her high school boyfriend was killed in motor cycle accident ( a frind of mine). ABout two years after going steady with her, I felt a need to make sure I was ready for marriage and we seperated for a while and both dated. This tore her apart and did serious damage to her trust in me. SHe was very needy for love and strength or devotion becuase of the lack of it from her parents - again 11 kids of which she was 9 and too little to go around. So our marriage started out with serious lack of trust for me on her part and a very needy personality with a conflict avoidance trait. With me travelling heavy and having kids, she felt abandoned. With the birt of second she went into severe post partum and left for 2 weeks - the kids with me. This when the first two short term happened. We were in MC after that Ithought things were back to solid ground (I didn't know about the first two). As soon as the MC stopped, her depression continued and she started the long term with my "friend". I could kill the [email protected] for taking advantage. She tells me it startd as someone availbale that made her feel desired and she could talk to. From there it continued becuase she compartmentalized and justified by telling herself it wasn't often 1x/month and she deserved it with all of my road travel - she always felt I had no responsibilities and no kids to take care of and was going out to dinner all the time. She kew but ignored that I was working 16-18 hours a day just to get back and hated being away from her.

All said - she accepts she was VERY wrong and it took a long time for her to face herself and then to forgive herself. SHe sees how skewed her thinking was. SHe understnads how she jsut avoided working through it with me instead of doing waht she did and is very remorseful. She understands she ahs to face my pain and help me through it - she created it. SHe no longer runs and states how she feels and stays in the dscussion. I really had to adjust to this. On my side I've changed my approach to her on issues or arguments. Is stopped using my command voice and ulled back and took a time out when I couldn't control my anger and opened mouth and inserted foot. My new motto is do no harm. Listen actively, shut up and understand, then discuss. Together as a team we have made great progress repairing our marriage and making it better.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

You were wise to make IC a non-negotiable condition for reconciliation. Too many betrayed spouses are so eager to have their unfaithful spouses back that they overlook - or simply ignore - this much needed pre-requisite for reconciliation.

Now as far as your anger towards the OM, that is totally normal but I hope that it is not something that is consuming you to the point where it is keeping you from your personal healing. I truly hope that you can get to the point where he becomes a nonperson in your life.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

He already is. God forbid I ever run into him on my way to the range, he may a few more holes to breath through.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

8yearscheating said:


> He already is. God forbid I ever run into him on my way to the range, he may a few more holes to breath through.


I somehow seriously doubt that because you seem to be a man very much in possession of his senses. Plus he isn't worth going to prison and losing contact with your loved ones. Let him rot in hell.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Yes it's over and done Lord. Thanks for pounding it in my face as you do everyone - it's so beneficial. I learned you can let something tear you apart and keep dwelling on it. It's just self flagellation. Learn from it, be smarter and eyes wide open. But I've climbed out of the damn hole that I'd dug for myself (yes she started it with her bomb of an A) and I'm filling it in so I can't go back. Only you can do it for yourself. Your WS can't fix you - she can only help. It get's to a point where your WS will decide she can't deal with the constant anger, questioning, distrust and give up. Yes you heal in your time and you take as long it takes you get there. But getting there is the goal. Staying stuck doesn't get you there.

You had started to show empathy toward newbies. You turned back to your old ways. Keep living in your hell, I'm leaving mine behind.

And I am committed to my marriage - nothing you say will divert me from my happiness or my life as I want it to be. My squelch is up all the way.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Hey guys. We're on the same team, remember?


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

I can totally understand where 8 is coming from. I don't understand why some posters feel the need to be so blatantly brutal to someone who is in R. How in the world does that help? We all have triggers on our own as is, there is no need to be so vile.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ItHappenedToMe (Aug 5, 2011)

8, your box is full.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

Affaircare said:


> First, I'm going to refer you to my newest thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...ping-your-disloyal-you-being-controlling.html
> 
> Second, I have to admit I tend to side with your wife on this one, that the way you treat her is controlling and disrespectful. However, she tends to want 100% trust in her honesty when she hasn't earned it and is unwilling to put in the effort TO earn it! Nonetheless, her bad choices do not justify you making a bad choice too (i.e., controlling) so just to clean up your side of the street, there is a difference between identifying for your equal partner wife that something is "not okay with you" and jumping to conclusions and accusing her before you know any facts!!
> 
> ...


I'm afraid I disagree. Absolute transparency and accountability during this phase of the healing process is necessary. It is not controlling to be concerned and expect a response when an expected 11/2 hour event turns into 4 hours. just my humble opinion..


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