# Wow...a trigger about my marriage.



## Therealbrighteyes

I am in a different room right now typing away and a commercial just came on, on the TV in the other room. I have no idea what the product was, as all I heard was the song. It was Jimmy Durante's "Make Someone Happy". 
This song has special meaning to me as I used to watch my parents dance to it. My twin and I used to marvel at their grace as they just glided across a dance floor, like two fluid beings totally connected. Dancing was their passion and they were damn good at it. Fred and Ginger, if you will. 
My father taught me how to dance. Ballroom dancing. The Waltz, the Fox Trot and the Tango. I became fantastic at dancing.
My parents marriage didn't make it and they divorced before I got married. 38 years total. 
When my husband and I were planning our wedding, we were trying to figure out the song we would dance our first dance to. I told him about how important this song was to me as it reminded me of a time in my life when things were calm and easy, rather than the bull**** and abuse they inflicted on us as teenagers. It was a time of seeing two people totally in love and connecting. He didn't have any other song in mind and agreed to listen to my song. He listened and said it sounds amazing and that's EXACTLY how he feels about "US". He also loved that it was rather short, as he was scared of dancing.
We went to dance lessons at HIS request, as he had never learned ballroom dance. We went to classes for 3 months, two times a week. He was so wonderful and he learned to dance like a pro. Truly amazing on his feet, spun me around and was beyond any partner I have ever had. 
The night of our wedding, the song starts. He was nervous and scared of dancing in front of everybody, 250+ and he is NOT a showboat. He whispered in my ear "Help me!". I said "Just feel the music and the lyrics and let's just move to it". We met cheek to cheek. He smiled and glided through it like Fred Astaire. I was his Ginger Rodgers. He was amazing and it was THE dance of a lifetime, for me at least. 
Tonight, after hearing the commercial from the other room, I walked in to the family room where he was, kissed him on the head and said "Don't you just love that song. Man, that takes me back". Him: "What song". I said "Our song". Him, "What song is that?". Me: "The song we danced to as a newly married couple 17 years ago". Him: "I would have preferred something else". WTF?????????
Yes, I have tears in my eyes right now.


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## Trenton

Men are idiots and women are sentimental fools, it's not a good combo when having a moment like yours but I totally understand where you're coming from. You want to share those moments not by yourself but with him. What good is a connection if only one of a couple connected?


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## Therealbrighteyes

Exactly, Trenton. Right now I am so upset and frankly in tears. Our own sons know how to dance to that song. I taught them! They love that song. 
My own HUSBAND who danced that song at our wedding doesn't even remember it and he didn't have a drop of alcohol at our wedding.


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## Deejo

Trenton said:


> What good is a connection if only one of a couple connected?


It's no good. It means there is no connection. There is a dis-connection. And eventually somebody gets fed up with it and either does something very difficult, or very stupid.


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## Deejo

Brennan said:


> Exactly, Trenton. Right now I am so upset and frankly in tears. Our own sons know how to dance to that song. I taught them! They love that song.
> My own HUSBAND who danced that song at our wedding doesn't even remember it and he didn't have a drop of alcohol at our wedding.


Why does he love you? Do you know? All I have is the picture that you paint of this guy. And the guy he appears to be now ... seems nothing like the guy you want him to be, or the guy you remember. I'm not sure that's completely his fault.

*Edit*
In rereading this it sounds harsh. It isn't meant to be an incrimination of you. Once again, in looking at your circumstances, it isn't difficult to see my own.
I wanted her to change. I wanted her to stop doing the things that I fully believed were her fault, in causing the rift between us. I never had to look very deep to find something to gripe about. I never had to poke very hard to elicit exactly the response _I didn't want._
She changed. The bottom line as a result of those changes? _I couldn't accept who she became_. And she had no interest in being who I wanted her to be.

Two years on, and she still hasn't made the changes I would require for reconciliation. I no longer have those expectations that she should change. As her ex husband, I have no issues acknowledging the work she is doing, and being indifferent about the work she will likely never do.
As her husband? They were deal breakers. I could not accept her behavior as my wife, or partner - because from my perspective, she was no partner at all.

I'm not advocating for you to leave your husband. I would much rather that you and he make it. You will have made the changes you need to make, when you can accept him for who he is; what he does, and does not do. He will have made the changes he needs to make when he starts viewing the marriage as an opportunity for growth and intimacy as opposed to restrictive or self-diminishing.

In summary, it still comes down to my favorite phrase: "Own your sh!t."
You can't blame him for this. He can't blame you. If you can't get out of that mode, your as good as done.


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## Trenton

Deejo said:


> Why does he love you? Do you know? All I have is the picture that you paint of this guy. And the guy he appears to be now ... seems nothing like the guy you want him to be, or the guy you remember. I'm not sure that's completely his fault.


I think maybe he needs a wakeup call. Deejo you should call him!


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## Deejo

Trenton said:


> I think maybe he needs a wakeup call. Deejo you should call him!


The wake up call would be if I started calling his wife.


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## Trenton

Deejo said:


> The wake up call would be if I started calling his wife.


Right. That was what I was implying but apparently did a bad job of it. Although if his close friend hitting on his wife doesn't stir any intensity do you really think anything will? Maybe this is why Brennan is struggling so much?


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## chefmaster

Brennan said:


> "Don't you just love that song. Man, that takes me back". Him: "What song". I said "Our song". Him, "What song is that?". Me: "The song we danced to as a newly married couple 17 years ago". Him: "I would have preferred something else". WTF?????????
> Yes, I have tears in my eyes right now.


After hearing his responses I'm speechless.


I'm sorry hon :::hugs:::


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## AFEH

Brennan said:


> I am in a different room right now typing away and a commercial just came on, on the TV in the other room. I have no idea what the product was, as all I heard was the song. It was Jimmy Durante's "Make Someone Happy".
> This song has special meaning to me as I used to watch my parents dance to it. My twin and I used to marvel at their grace as they just glided across a dance floor, like two fluid beings totally connected. Dancing was their passion and they were damn good at it. Fred and Ginger, if you will.
> My father taught me how to dance. Ballroom dancing. The Waltz, the Fox Trot and the Tango. I became fantastic at dancing.
> My parents marriage didn't make it and they divorced before I got married. 38 years total.
> When my husband and I were planning our wedding, we were trying to figure out the song we would dance our first dance to. I told him about how important this song was to me as it reminded me of a time in my life when things were calm and easy, rather than the bull**** and abuse they inflicted on us as teenagers. It was a time of seeing two people totally in love and connecting. He didn't have any other song in mind and agreed to listen to my song. He listened and said it sounds amazing and that's EXACTLY how he feels about "US". He also loved that it was rather short, as he was scared of dancing.
> We went to dance lessons at HIS request, as he had never learned ballroom dance. We went to classes for 3 months, two times a week. He was so wonderful and he learned to dance like a pro. Truly amazing on his feet, spun me around and was beyond any partner I have ever had.
> The night of our wedding, the song starts. He was nervous and scared of dancing in front of everybody, 250+ and he is NOT a showboat. He whispered in my ear "Help me!". I said "Just feel the music and the lyrics and let's just move to it". We met cheek to cheek. He smiled and glided through it like Fred Astaire. I was his Ginger Rodgers. He was amazing and it was THE dance of a lifetime, for me at least.
> Tonight, after hearing the commercial from the other room, I walked in to the family room where he was, kissed him on the head and said "Don't you just love that song. Man, that takes me back". Him: "What song". I said "Our song". Him, "What song is that?". Me: "The song we danced to as a newly married couple 17 years ago". Him: "I would have preferred something else". WTF?????????
> Yes, I have tears in my eyes right now.


I just don’t get it Brennan. You are with an Honest Man. He is not two faced. He is not deceiving you and he is not lying to you. Try living with someone who is two faced, who lies to you and deceives you like many of the people here. That’s a very different world. Count your blessings and love his honesty.

You seem to me to have a “victim mentality”. Take a look at How to Break Out of a Victim Mentality: 7 Powerful Tips.

Bob


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## mentallydrained

Wish words didn't pain us so much. I feel you and would be in complete tears as well. Wierd thing is, my H WOULD remember all of those moments. Even after 18yrs of being together. I love he does, but yet, we still have a disconnect. Then, again, those moments H and I do remember, are the best of our lives. Hence why when we do have our little chat sessions and we do discuss the 'what if', he blurts out the statement "if you made a mistake, it's okay, we had a good run at it and it's okay that you have decided it was a mistake". WHAT? I never ever viewed our marriage as a mistake, regardless! It's odd he, being the man, feels if it isn't happily ever after, it's a mistake. Me, I use to, use to always want the Cinderella story. Now, not so much, or at least at age 40 realize it truly is little girl fantasy. 

So sorry your H didn't live the moment the way you did and do. Possibly his moment is something else very special and dear that you don't realize? Just a thought.


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## F-102

Congratulations, Brennan. Now if you start falling into an EA later, here's the first big piece of evidence you can use against him when you get lost in the good guy/bad guy "fog"!

P.S.- I'm being very sarcastic here.


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## AFEH

Brennan, a little exercise for you. Get a small wallet or a purse. Write down all the grievances you have against your husband. From what you say these go back 30 years to when you were nine years old. Put your all your grievances in your purse. This is your BAGGAGE.

Carry the purse around with you. Every time your husband adds to your grievances, write it down and put it in your purse.

That way you can carry your baggage around with you everywhere you go and add to it along the way.

Of course you can always get rid of your baggage by throwing the purse away and not add to it as you go through your marriage.

That choice is yours and yours alone.

Bob


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## greenpearl

This is going to be harsh, but it is from good intention, I want to help you, if you find it useless, just ignore it. 

First, you expect too much from him, since you know what kind of man he is, why do you expect him to remember that song? Too high of expectation always result in big disappointment in life. 

Second, I think you feel insecure about your life, you need other people's good comments to make you feel better. In our life, if we care too much about other people's comments, good or bad, we are not doing a good job to protect our hearts. Trust us, believe in us, be confident about us, who cares what other people think about us. They have a better car, so what! They have a bigger house, so what! If we compare ourselves with others all the time, there will never be satisfaction in life. 

Third, back to that ring incident. I understand that you want a ring, but you did it without your husband's permission. I would never dare do such a thing, buying big things without my husband's permission. You just ignored your husband's wish, went ahead and did it. How much respect are you showing to your husband? Then you felt bad that he didn't want to go with you to pick it up. I can imagine your husband's feeling. 

Fourth, seeing you arguing with people on this forum, I don't know how much you argue with your man in your real life. Telling men you are wrong right on their faces is very disrespectful towards men. No matter they are wrong or right. 

You can stick around, you can divorce him, but if you don't change your personality, your life won't be easy!


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## Conrad

AFEH said:


> Brennan, a little exercise for you. Get a small wallet or a purse. Write down all the grievances you have against your husband. From what you say these go back 30 years to when you were nine years old. Put your all your grievances in your purse. This is your BAGGAGE.
> 
> Carry the purse around with you. Every time your husband adds to your grievances, write it down and put it in your purse.
> 
> That way you can carry your baggage around with you everywhere you go and add to it along the way.
> 
> Of course you can always get rid of your baggage by throwing the purse away and not add to it as you go through your marriage.
> 
> That choice is yours and yours alone.
> 
> Bob


Good man.

Think of how differently this would have turned out had Brennan gone to him and said, I just heard the Jimmy Durante song we danced to at our wedding!

I was so grateful you learned how to dance just to make that moment special!

Yet, the choice she made was to test him.


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## nice777guy

Its one thing for him to forget the song. As a guy - nice or otherwise - when you realize THAT mistake, you apologize and keep your mouth shut.

But saying that he would have preferred to dance to something else sounds pretty lousy.

One little thing about guys and weddings. My wife asked me to choose the cake topper - two doves, or the bride and groom. I chose the bride and groom. Cake maker said that men ALWAYS pick this, because that little groom on the cake is often the only thing they can relate to during a wedding. Everything else is about the bride.

To me our wedding wasn't sentimental or romantic - it felt more like a "show" or an "event" - like we were entertaining guests. FWIW, I picked the first 5 songs - I remember the first two - not real sure if my wife would remember any of them. There was a lot going on that day and night.


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## greenpearl

NG,

My husband didn't want to make our wedding a big show for people. He thinks marriage is for only two of us. We didn't have a wedding, we went to the court house and got married, that day was very unique, we went to the court house by his shabby scooter. We did dress up nicely, he was wearing his best suit, I was wearing a dress, not a wedding dress, just a nice dress, and we got married happily. We saved a lot of money and stress. I never feel bad that we didn't have a grand wedding. 

I have big smiles whenever I think about that day. Our day was so different from others!


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## Therealbrighteyes

Update: This morning as he was leaving for work, he leaned over the bed, hugged me and said "I'm sorry for hurting you last night". I asked him why he said what he said. His response: "That should have never been our song. That was your parents song but I went along with it because it meant so much to you". 
Gulp.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> Good man.
> 
> Think of how differently this would have turned out had Brennan gone to him and said, I just heard the Jimmy Durante song we danced to at our wedding!
> 
> I was so grateful you learned how to dance just to make that moment special!
> 
> Yet, the choice she made was to test him.


Conrad,
It wasn't a test! I was in the other room, heard the song and came out to say that it took me back. I had zero idea he would respond the way he did. I had no agenda nor was I baiting him in any way. :scratchhead:


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## nice777guy

Brennan said:


> "That should have never been our song. That was your parents song but I went along with it because it meant so much to you".


I just don't get what he has to gain by saying this now.

I get that he's being honest. And he's certainly not taking the "Nice Guy" way out of avoiding conflict.

Is it possible that HE'S testing HER? Is this some of HIS resentment coming out?


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## Therealbrighteyes

nice777guy said:


> I just don't get what he has to gain by saying this now.
> 
> I get that he's being honest. And he's certainly not taking the "Nice Guy" way out of avoiding conflict.
> 
> Is it possible that HE'S testing HER? Is this some of HIS resentment coming out?


I took it as him giving me a reason for what he said yesterday and also admitting the reason why he went along with the song years ago. I don't think it was a test. I think it was him apologizing in some way but also giving me a reason for his response. It does make me sad though.


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## AFEH

Conrad said:


> Good man.
> 
> Think of how differently this would have turned out had Brennan gone to him and said, I just heard the Jimmy Durante song we danced to at our wedding!
> 
> I was so grateful you learned how to dance just to make that moment special!
> 
> Yet, the choice she made was to test him.


I think “victim” type personalities “choose to be hurt”.

Look what’s happened here. Instead of Brennan asking what her husband “meant”, she chose to be “hurt”. That’s a response of a person who sees themselves as a “victim”.

This is a “clear cut case” proved by the results of the “event”. Brennan’s husband’s motivations are very sound.

Brennan’s in a “drama” triangle Drama Triangle: The Three Faces of Victim by Lynne Forrest.

Too right about what you say. Brennan denied her husband his gift and sacrifice of accepting her song at his wedding. Which makes it ten times worse.

Bob


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## takris

Some people are sentimental, some are not. And it's not always the woman. I'm a sucker for sentimental traditions, and my wife doesn't get it. Maybe if you begin to educate him on what these really mean to you, he could learn to respect them. 

It's really sad to me that my wife's sister gets our traditions, and what they mean, but not my wife. For instance, when we go to her house for Thanksgiving, she brings up my second favorite of that day. Since they are agnostic, my tradition is that instead of praying, each person takes a little time to tell how the people around the table some of the small ways they are thankful for them.

My wife and I don't have a song. We have a composer. 27 years ago, we made love for the first time under her parents Christmas tree to Debussey. Now, we decorate the tree immediately after Thanksgiving, and I pull out my Christmas kit. My wife doesn't get it. The kit has candles, Debussey, a nice mattress, and I cook dinner from the fireplace next to the tree. The next morning, with very little sleep, I make breakfast there.

I have a million of them, and I can understand your heartbreak when he doesn't get it.

BTW - I bought a tux and took three months of ballroom dance lessons for a father/daughter ball for my twins. They promised ballroom dancing, but only played teen pop. They were so devastated that I demanded an audience with the guest singer, one of their favorite singers at the time. We got pics with my daughters and the singer.


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## Deejo

Brennan said:


> Update: This morning as he was leaving for work, he leaned over the bed, hugged me and said "I'm sorry for hurting you last night". I asked him why he said what he said. His response: "That should have never been our song. That was your parents song but I went along with it because it meant so much to you".
> Gulp.


Saw that one coming a mile away ...

I also agree with Bob. There are two ways you can roll here. Accept that it is you that needs to do the changing, or continue insisting it needs to be him and then feel wounded when he doesn't deliver.


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## AFEH

You couldn't make this up!


BEST LAWYER/INSURANCE STORY OF THE YEAR, 
DECADE, AND POSSIBLY THE CENTURY. 

This took place in Charlotte North Carolina. A lawyer purchased a box of very rare and expensive cigars, then insured them against, among other things, fire. 

Within a month, having smoked his entire stockpile of these great cigars, the lawyer filed a claim against the insurance company. 

In his claim, the lawyer stated the cigars were lost 'in a series of small fires' ... The insurance company refused to pay, citing the obvious reason, that the man had consumed the cigars in the normal fashion. 

The lawyer sued and WON! ( Stay with me. ) 

Delivering the ruling, the judge agreed with the insurance company that the claim was frivolous. The judge stated nevertheless, that the lawyer held a policy from the company, in which it had warranted that the cigars were insurable and also guaranteed that it would insure them against fire, without defining what is considered to be unacceptable 'fire' and was obligated to pay the claim. 

Rather than endure lengthy and costly appeal process, the insurance company accepted the ruling and paid $15,000 to the lawyer for his loss of the cigars that perished in the 'fires'. 

NOW FOR THE BEST PART... 

After the lawyer cashed the check, the insurance company had him arrested on 24 counts of ARSON!!! 

With his own insurance claim and testimony from the previous case being used against him, the lawyer was convicted of intentionally burning his insured property and was sentenced to 24 months in jail and a $24,000 fine. This true story won First Place in last year's Criminal Lawyers Award contest.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> Saw that one coming a mile away ...
> 
> I also agree with Bob. There are two ways you can roll here. Accept that it is you that needs to do the changing, or continue insisting it needs to be him and then feel wounded when he doesn't deliver.


I do see what you are saying. Bob is out of line though. He is saying that I didn't accept his gift of the song. Um, I just found out this morning that it was a gift. Once I found out, I felt awful that all these years he danced to a song that he didn't want. I don't see how that is "10 times worse". 

And no, I don't chose to wallow in this. It is just fresh, okay.


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## MarriedWifeInLove

AFEH said:


> I just don’t get it Brennan. You are with an Honest Man. He is not two faced. He is not deceiving you and he is not lying to you. Try living with someone who is two faced, who lies to you and deceives you like many of the people here. That’s a very different world. Count your blessings and love his honesty.
> 
> You seem to me to have a “victim mentality”. Take a look at How to Break Out of a Victim Mentality: 7 Powerful Tips.
> 
> Bob


:iagree: Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. He probably wasn't even thinking and didn't realize this was a sensitive subject for you. I totally am with Bob on this. We (women) sometimes get into the "victim mentality" and everything our spouse's say or do feels personal and like an attack against us, the marriage, etc. I was like this for quite a few months and took everything personally and put everything on my shoulders. Counseling helped me step back and realize that everything was not personal, about me and what I was doing in the relationship and my responsibility. It took a lot of hard work, but I'm now past that and realize that he is his own person and not everything is about our relationship and how he feels about me.

It's hard to do, but if you can get past it, it will make a lot of difference for you.


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## Conrad

Brennan said:


> Update: This morning as he was leaving for work, he leaned over the bed, hugged me and said "I'm sorry for hurting you last night". I asked him why he said what he said. His response: "That should have never been our song. That was your parents song but I went along with it because it meant so much to you".
> Gulp.


And you said in response?


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## nice777guy

Bob and Deejo - what am I missing here?

He agreed all those years ago to dance to this song. Yes - it was a gift or a small sacrifice.

I don't think Brennan took the gift away - I think her husband did.

I get the impression that her husband walked around all these years upset that he agreed to that song. THAT sounds like holding to resentment.

To oversimplify, it sounds like he suddenly decided to say - "Yes - your favorite jeans from 10 years ago really DID make your butt look big." Or like telling someone they have an ugly baby. It didn't need to be said - or else should have been said YEARS ago. Like before he agreed to take ballroom dancing lessons and to feature that song at their wedding.


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## Deejo

It's a pattern Brennan. We see it. You don't see the pattern. You feel the results of the pattern.

You shared a positive feeling surrounding a memory - with the expectation that his experience would mirror yours. You saw it as an opportunity to connect. 

His memory and experience was nothing like yours. In that moment, you were being emotionally honest - and so was he. But instead of wondering why he responded the way he did, or felt the way he felt, you saw it as a cruel betrayal.

This is the exact same dynamic as the checking out or fantasizing about other women. It's identical - right down to his honesty and your feeling like the rug has been pulled out from under you.


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## Conrad

Deejo said:


> It's a pattern Brennan. We see it. You don't see the pattern. You feel the results of the pattern.
> 
> You shared a positive feeling surrounding a memory - with the expectation that his experience would mirror yours. You saw it as an opportunity to connect.
> 
> His memory and experience was nothing like yours. In that moment, you were being emotionally honest - and so was he. But instead of wondering why he responded the way he did, or felt the way he felt, you saw it as a cruel betrayal.
> 
> This is the exact same dynamic as the checking out or fantasizing about other women. It's identical - right down to his honesty and your feeling like the rug has been pulled out from under you.


And he WILL NOT BE HONEST WITH YOU until you're able to get over your own feelings and validate his.

This may sound like a rant, but I wish I had a buck for every woman I've heard that says they want honesty.

Their actions say otherwise.


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## AFEH

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> :iagree: Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. He probably wasn't even thinking and didn't realize this was a sensitive subject for you. I totally am with Bob on this. We (women) sometimes get into the "victim mentality" and everything our spouse's say or do feels personal and like an attack against us, the marriage, etc. I was like this for quite a few months and took everything personally and put everything on my shoulders. Counseling helped me step back and realize that everything was not personal, about me and what I was doing in the relationship and my responsibility. It took a lot of hard work, but I'm now past that and realize that he is his own person and not everything is about our relationship and how he feels about me.
> 
> It's hard to do, but if you can get past it, it will make a lot of difference for you.


MarriedWifeInLove, that is one of the best posts I’ve ever read on TAM. Your post is outstanding.

Bless you and very well done.

Bob


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## greenpearl

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> :iagree: Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. He probably wasn't even thinking and didn't realize this was a sensitive subject for you. I totally am with Bob on this. We (women) sometimes get into the "victim mentality" and everything our spouse's say or do feels personal and like an attack against us, the marriage, etc. I was like this for quite a few months and took everything personally and put everything on my shoulders. Counseling helped me step back and realize that everything was not personal, about me and what I was doing in the relationship and my responsibility. It took a lot of hard work, but I'm now past that and realize that he is his own person and not everything is about our relationship and how he feels about me.
> 
> It's hard to do, but if you can get past it, it will make a lot of difference for you.


Happy for you!

When we realize who we are and accept who we are, and know that it is us who are making us upset and unhappy, then it is much easier to change our life to positive. It is possible to change us, because we are in control of it. It is not easy to wait for others to change, we don't even know they want to change or not. But if we accept the way they are, if their habits are not too much to endure, our life will be much easier. They don't need to walk on eggshells anymore, we are more cheerful also.


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## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> This is the exact same dynamic as the checking out or fantasizing about other women. It's identical - right down to his honesty and your feeling like the rug has been pulled out from under you.


Not the same. He didn't make a grand promise - a sacrifice at her request related to limiting his fantasies about other women. And then - 15 years later - as she's praising him for it - flippantly admit that he never meant it and he's constantly undressing women with his eyes. THAT might be comparable.

All guys check out and fantasize about other women. Not all men take ballroom dancing lessons in order to make a 3 minute dance at their wedding seem more significant.


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## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> Bob and Deejo - what am I missing here?
> 
> He agreed all those years ago to dance to this song. Yes - it was a gift or a small sacrifice.
> 
> I don't think Brennan took the gift away - I think her husband did.
> 
> I get the impression that her husband walked around all these years upset that he agreed to that song. THAT sounds like holding to resentment.
> 
> To oversimplify, it sounds like he suddenly decided to say - "Yes - your favorite jeans from 10 years ago really DID make your butt look big." Or like telling someone they have an ugly baby. It didn't need to be said - or else should have been said YEARS ago. Like before he agreed to take ballroom dancing lessons and to feature that song at their wedding.


There was no 'gift'.
He wanted his bride to be happy. He didn't ask the question that I would have wondered but probably wouldn't have asked either ... "So you want our wedding song to be the same song that your divorced parents danced to? How about we start fresh with one of our own?"

Given where their marriage is at, the song seems a little more prophetic now than it did on their wedding day. He attempted to share that feeling. Both of their emotions are legitimate - and seemingly incompatible. That's what is sad.


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## Conrad

Deejo said:


> There was no 'gift'.
> He wanted his bride to be happy. He didn't ask the question that I would have wondered but probably wouldn't have asked either ... "So you want our wedding song to be the same song that your divorced parents danced to? How about we start fresh with one of our own?"
> 
> Given where there marriage is at, the song seems a little more prophetic now than it did on their wedding day. He attempted to share that feeling. Both of their emotions are legitimate - and seemingly incompatible. That's what is sad.


We can only really work on ourselves.

I hope Brennan can step back and read her own words.

Each encounter she reports with her husband is THE SAME.

Her reaction is the same.

It IS possible to view situations differently, but the answer lies within.

If the focus is "change your partner, change your partner", you may as well file for divorce today.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> And he WILL NOT BE HONEST WITH YOU until you're able to get over your own feelings and validate his.
> 
> This may sound like a rant, but I wish I had a buck for every woman I've heard that says they want honesty.
> 
> Their actions say otherwise.


Trust me Conrad, I know. I am working on that part. Deejo is right about the rug. Again, I need to continue to work on that part.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

AFEH said:


> I think “victim” type personalities “choose to be hurt”.
> 
> Look what’s happened here. Instead of Brennan asking what her husband “meant”, she chose to be “hurt”. That’s a response of a person who sees themselves as a “victim”.
> 
> This is a “clear cut case” proved by the results of the “event”. Brennan’s husband’s motivations are very sound.
> 
> Brennan’s in a “drama” triangle Drama Triangle: The Three Faces of Victim by Lynne Forrest.
> 
> Too right about what you say. Brennan denied her husband his gift and sacrifice of accepting her song at his wedding. Which makes it ten times worse.
> 
> Bob


Good article - thanks. I find myself doing this. I ask my husband a question, expect a certain answer and when I don't get it, I feel hurt. I have to keep telling myself - he's not me, he's not me. Sometimes I think we (women) tend to expect our significant others to think and act like we do (a best girlfriend), instead of who they are. I keep remembering something my husband said out loud one time "I just want to be myself." And I keep trying to let him "be himself." That's who I fell in love with so if I remember that it takes a lot of the drama out of our relationship.


----------



## greenpearl

Conrad said:


> And he WILL NOT BE HONEST WITH YOU until you're able to get over your own feelings and validate his.
> 
> This may sound like a rant, but I wish I had a buck for every woman I've heard that says they want honesty.
> 
> Their actions say otherwise.


In a relationship, if the man or the woman have to lie to protect themselves, the relationship is already not that good.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Bob and Deejo - what am I missing here?
> 
> He agreed all those years ago to dance to this song. Yes - it was a gift or a small sacrifice.
> 
> I don't think Brennan took the gift away - I think her husband did.
> 
> I get the impression that her husband walked around all these years upset that he agreed to that song. THAT sounds like holding to resentment.
> 
> To oversimplify, it sounds like he suddenly decided to say - "Yes - your favorite jeans from 10 years ago really DID make your butt look big." Or like telling someone they have an ugly baby. It didn't need to be said - or else should have been said YEARS ago. Like before he agreed to take ballroom dancing lessons and to feature that song at their wedding.


It’s making big hills out of little mole hills NG.

Problem with this big hill is that the mole hill didn’t even exist in the first place so the big hill should never have existed.

It is all about Communication.

Now with your personality style and how you subsequently deal with this type of thing you just went and created one bloody great Big Mountain. And all that out of a mole hill that didn’t exist in the first place.

Bob


----------



## Conrad

And - if I may divert for just one second - the "Nice Guy" syndrome is an outgrowth of that same victim mentality.

(If anyone wants to test that theory, let's drag up my fitness test thread or something similar - this one is too productive to hijack)


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> Not the same. He didn't make a grand promise - a sacrifice at her request related to limiting his fantasies about other women. And then - 15 years later - as she's praising him for it - flippantly admit that he never meant it and he's constantly undressing women with his eyes. THAT might be comparable.


Nope. No grand sacrifice. He just told her what she wanted to hear in an effort to avoid conflict. Both times. I do see it as the same. Multiple examples. And when he does decide to be honest about his feelings ... conflict, confusion, and tears ensue and he gets blamed anyway.

I'm not picking sides. I'm just pointing out that I know very well where this dynamic, if left unaddressed leads to.


----------



## Conrad

Deejo said:


> Nope. No grand sacrifice. He just told her what she wanted to hear in an effort to avoid conflict. Both times. I do see it as the same. Multiple examples. And when he does decide to be honest about his feelings ... conflict, confusion, and tears ensue and he gets blamed anyway.
> 
> I'm not picking sides. I'm just pointing out that I know very well where this dynamic, if left unaddressed leads to.


NiceGuy,

Let's put it this way.

Brennan is the wife of a prototypical "Nice Guy".

What needs to happen is self-examination about her role in the dynamic.

This is no easy task - especially if he's shutting down on her. Yet, when he opens up, she gets hurt. This - of course - encourages him to clam up and be "nice".

This does shed insight into their relationship.

But, it's not a fun thing to hear - or be part of.


----------



## nice777guy

OK - so those of us who are still married or in long term relationships - think of a small sacrifice you made in the past to make your spouse happy - something that didn't cost you much but meant something to them - like a song choice at your wedding.

When you get home tonight, mention this memory to them, and wait for the smile and the twinkle in their eyes to appear. Then tell them that you really wish you would have picked a different song had it been up to you, or went somewhere else on your honeymoon, or chose a different middle name for your first born child instead of using a name from his/her family.

If you aren't married, call a parent, or an old dear friend.

Let's all dig up $hit - and I do mean $HIT - from our past - and be REAL honest about it. What could be more helpful, right?

If THIS is what I have to do to continue my path of recovery from being a "Nice Guy", I think I'll pass. I'll focus on things that are relevant to life right now and in the future. Not dig up things that I'VE held onto some small resentment over - *things I should have let go of YEARS ago that are really MY burden at this point*. If that means I keep the "Nice Guy" label, so be it. I've been called much worse.

Much different than saying "yeah, of course I fantasize about other women," which is basically like saying "I need oxygen."


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

Deejo said:


> Nope. No grand sacrifice. He just told her what she wanted to hear in an effort to avoid conflict. Both times. I do see it as the same. Multiple examples. And when he does decide to be honest about his feelings ... conflict, confusion, and tears ensue and he gets blamed anyway.
> 
> I'm not picking sides. I'm just pointing out that I know very well where this dynamic, if left unaddressed leads to.


:iagree: again! My husband once told me that he didn't tell me more of how he feels because it was used against him. The example he used (about food, not feelings but got his point across) was: I made a new dish, asked him how it was. He said alright, I got hurt and said just alright? He said later that it was really good but if he told me that then he would be getting this new dish 3-5 times a week. We (women) try to hard to be pleasers all the time and lose some of ourselves in the process. When we first got married I was independent, made my own money (more than him), sure of myself, etc. Somewhere along the way that changed and my life cease to exist and became about his - I lost the part of me that attracted him in the first place. I've realized this and have worked hard to get "me" back and realize that I am not responsible for his happiness, his response to me, etc. It's a great feeling - I no longer require sleeping pills and have gotten my appetite back and that knot in my stomach is gone. Fear is what was driving me...fear that I'm not good enough, fear that I'm getting old and he wouldn't want me anymore, fear that he had grown and changed, just plain old fear - about a lot of things I cant' even change or control (him, my age, etc.). Learning to let that go (and yes, its an everyday struggle to not go back), has made my life happier which in turn has taken pressure off of him, made him happier and he has become closer and more open with me.

Don't want to get off subject or hijack your thread. Just thought this might help. I wouldn't worry so much that he didn't want the song, etc. Maybe he just feels comfortable now telling you his true feelings that he couldn't express at the time. You've been married 17 years, what does it matter about the song at your wedding - we didn't even have one.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

AFEH said:


> MarriedWifeInLove, that is one of the best posts I’ve ever read on TAM. Your post is outstanding.
> 
> Bless you and very well done.
> 
> Bob


Thanks. I've had an extremely enlightning year about myself.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> OK - so those of us who are still married or in long term relationships - think of a small sacrifice you made in the past to make your spouse happy - something that didn't cost you much but meant something to them - like a song choice at your wedding.
> 
> When you get home tonight, mention this memory to them, and wait for the smile and the twinkle in their eyes to appear. Then tell them that you really wish you would have picked a different song had it been up to you, or went somewhere else on your honeymoon, or chose a different middle name for your first born child instead of using a name from his/her family.
> 
> If you aren't married, call a parent, or an old dear friend.
> 
> Let's all dig up $hit - and I do mean $HIT - from our past - and be REAL honest about it. What could be more helpful, right?
> 
> If THIS is what I have to do to continue my path of recovery from being a "Nice Guy", I think I'll pass. I'll focus on things that are relevant to life right now and in the future. Not dig up things that I'VE held onto some small resentment over - *things I should have let go of YEARS ago that are really MY burden at this point*. If that means I keep the "Nice Guy" label, so be it. I've been called much worse.
> 
> Much different than saying "yeah, of course I fantasize about other women," which is basically like saying "I need oxygen."


My goodness NG. You've created Mount Everest out of this stuff. A mole hill that didn't exist.

Bob


----------



## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> My goodness NG. You've created Mount Everest out of this stuff. A mole hill that didn't exist.
> 
> Bob


Well - you guys are making it out like he made some grand confession, and that this situation serves as the perfect example of all things wrong in their marriage. Including Brennan's hurt feelings.

I think he was being a jerk and made an insensitive comment that can be of no good to a marriage that is already in very rough shape.

If her husband was trying to truly make a statement, I'm not sure if it was "I'm trying to be honest" or "I really no longer give a $hit."


----------



## nice777guy

Think about it:

"I really don't remember that, I JUST WISH I HADN'T DONE IT."

I think he remembers and has held onto some resentment.

If he has resentment over a song from 17 years ago, God only knows what else he's waiting to spring on her.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Well - you guys are making it out like he made some grand confession, and that this situation serves as the perfect example of all things wrong in their marriage. Including Brennan's hurt feelings.
> 
> I think he was being a jerk and made an insensitive comment that can be of no good to a marriage that is already in very rough shape.
> 
> If her husband was trying to truly make a statement, I'm not sure if it was "I'm trying to be honest" or "I really no longer give a $hit."


There you go again NG. Great Big Mountains out of nothing. You lack so much understanding about these things. To me it’s like you are blind and cannot see.

Look. Brennan made the choice to be hurt. That was Brennan’s choice and it was either a conscious choice, a subconscious or an unconscious choice. It is Brennan’s MO whatever the cause or type of choice.

Bob


----------



## Deejo

He wasn't sharing any deep emotional truth. He was being passive aggressive - which in his case is probably a direct result of NOT having the balls to be emotionally honest in the moment throughout their marriage. What he is discovering however, is that there is no upside to his being emotionally honest. That's the piece that Brennan is struggling with. She said as much about my rug comment.

What he did this morning was far more 'pure' - and the right thing to do.

I'm not a marriage counselor ... but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.


----------



## AFEH

NG. Do you think for one second that Brennan’s husband deliberately set out to hurt her?

Bob


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Thank you all for your responses. Some I agree with, others I don't. 
Yes, it's a song but for me that song had meaning. For him, it didn't. I had no way of knowing that until he told me. I don't think that is making a mountain out of a molehill but I digress.
I am not wallowing in pity. This happened last night. It's not like it happened months ago and I am still *****ing about it.


----------



## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> There you go again NG. Great Big Mountains out of nothing. *You lack so much understanding about these things. To me it’s like you are blind and cannot see.*
> Look. Brennan made the choice to be hurt. That was Brennan’s choice and it was either a conscious choice, a subconscious or an unconscious choice. It is Brennan’s MO whatever the cause or type of choice.
> 
> Bob


Is feeling hurt always a choice?

When you've been with someone 17 years, you know how to push one another's buttons. And you can easily do it with something small.

Obviously honesty is the best policy. Digging up stuff from the past that you are resentful about, when your spouse is having a sweet and tender moment - I'm not so sure.

Maybe I'm wrong here. I also backed off when I thought Brennan buying her husband a copy of NMMNG was going to be counter-productive. Everyone else thought she was opening things up. I felt like she was hitting him over the head with "this is what I want." In hindsight, I feel pretty good about my initial feelings on that one.

And to say I'm blind and lack understanding - that's a pretty broad sweeping statement there Bob. I'm just glad you seem to have it all figured out.


----------



## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> NG. Do you think for one second that Brennan’s husband deliberately set out to hurt her?
> 
> Bob


Yes - I do.

Obviously they are struggling. When that happens you take your shots when you can get them in.

It seems so logical to me that he remembered all of this - otherwise why would he make the followup statement of "wish we hadn't done that."


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Is feeling hurt always a choice?
> 
> When you've been with someone 17 years, you know how to push one another's buttons. And you can easily do it with something small.
> 
> Obviously honesty is the best policy. Digging up stuff from the past that you are resentful about, when your spouse is having a sweet and tender moment - I'm not so sure.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong here. I also backed off when I thought Brennan buying her husband a copy of NMMNG was going to be counter-productive. Everyone else thought she was opening things up. I felt like she was hitting him over the head with "this is what I want." In hindsight, I feel pretty good about my initial feelings on that one.
> 
> And to say I'm blind and lack understanding - that's a pretty broad sweeping statement there Bob. I'm just glad you seem to have it all figured out.


Ng. You didn’t answer my question.

Do you think for one second that Brennan’s husband intentionally hurt her?

Bob


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

nice777guy said:


> Is feeling hurt always a choice?
> 
> When you've been with someone 17 years, you know how to push one another's buttons. And you can easily do it with something small.
> 
> Obviously honesty is the best policy. Digging up stuff from the past that you are resentful about, when your spouse is having a sweet and tender moment - I'm not so sure.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong here. I also backed off when I thought Brennan buying her husband a copy of NMMNG was going to be counter-productive. Everyone else thought she was opening things up. I felt like she was hitting him over the head with "this is what I want." In hindsight, I feel pretty good about my initial feelings on that one.
> 
> 
> 
> And to say I'm blind and lack understanding - that's a pretty broad sweeping statement there Bob. I'm just glad you seem to have it all figured out.


I don't think it is a choice. It is a gut reaction. An "ouch" moment. 
Now what I choose to do with that is a "choice". That's the part I need to focus on/work on.


----------



## nice777guy

nice777guy said:


> Yes - I do.
> 
> Obviously they are struggling. When that happens you take your shots when you can get them in.
> 
> It seems so logical to me that he remembered all of this - otherwise why would he make the followup statement of "wish we hadn't done that."


----------



## nice777guy

Brennan said:


> I don't think it is a choice. It is a gut reaction. An "ouch" moment.
> Now what I choose to do with that is a "choice". That's the part I need to focus on/work on.


Do YOU think he was being innocently honest? 

Or do you think he was being hurtful?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

nice777guy said:


> Do YOU think he was being innocently honest?
> 
> Or do you think he was being hurtful?


I think he was being honest. It does hurt though. Again, how I handle it is my choice.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Yes - I do.
> 
> Obviously they are struggling. When that happens you take your shots when you can get them in.
> 
> It seems so logical to me that he remembered all of this - otherwise why would he make the followup statement of "wish we hadn't done that."


NG, well that’s where I think you are so very wrong.

You made the assumption that what Brennan’s husband did was indeed intentional. I did not see it that way at all.

I think you have so much to learn.

Even those like me that believe in forgiveness and readily forgive, we just don’t forget things. Doesn’t mean we have resentment with the memory we are way past that. Once something goes into long term memory, well guess what it stays there. And it stays there without the resultant resentment.

We are so very different NG demonstrated by how we’ve interpreted this thread so very differently.

NG I am way past self improvement and all that stuff. Way past it. If I need fixing it is way too late for me.

But I will challenge you to confrontation … and change if that is what you want. Pointless me doing it otherwise.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

Brennan said:


> I don't think it is a choice. It is a gut reaction. An "ouch" moment.
> Now what I choose to do with that is a "choice". That's the part I need to focus on/work on.


Absolutley Brennan.

Bob


----------



## takris

AFEH said:


> NG, well that’s where I think you are so very wrong.
> 
> You made the assumption that what Brennan’s husband did was indeed intentional. I did not see it that way at all.
> 
> Bob


Bob, I think you've made a good, solid point, but its still okay for the recipient to take a little time to process the unintentional hurt. I'm too sentimental, I admit, but to me, the most important part of a good marriage is the deliberate attempt to try to understand what is important to your spouse and learn to respect and share it. 

I'll probably get flamed for saying it, but since most of my peers at work are from Europe, and my day always starts with meetings with my group in England, France and Germany, I've noticed that guys there are maybe more culturally trained to a level of sensitivity that tends to be missing here. In other words, it seems to be assumed for them to respect the cherished things of their wife. Its a level of mutual respect that is sometimes missing here.


----------



## AFEH

takris said:


> Bob, I think you've made a good, solid point, but its still okay for the recipient to take a little time to process the unintentional hurt.


Absolutely Takris. I start off from the premise that people do not set out to deliberately hurt one another. So if we feel hurt we forgive and then try and “understand” what happened. The what’s and the why fors. If we conclude that we have been intentionally hurt without justification then it’s time to say goodbye to the marriage.




takris said:


> I'm too sentimental, I admit, but to me, the most important part of a good marriage is the deliberate attempt to try to understand what is important to your spouse and learn to respect and share it.


Yes. But Brennan’s H couldn’t do it in “a blink of an eye”, in an instant. But he got there and that’s one of my points/observations. And my goodness are we as humans supposed to be totally in sync with what is going through someone else’s mind at any instance of the day? This stuff takes time to process and he processed it very well.



takris said:


> I'll probably get flamed for saying it, but since most of my peers at work are from Europe, and my day always starts with meetings with my group in England, France and Germany, I've noticed that guys there are maybe more culturally trained to a level of sensitivity that tends to be missing here. In other words, it seems to be assumed for them to respect the cherished things of their wife. Its a level of mutual respect that is sometimes missing here.


I think that’s rather a generalisation!

Bob


----------



## Trenton

Brennan, do you feel better after what he told you this morning? I mean, is the hurt gone and replaced with understanding?

Maybe the two of you can pick out a new song together, go through the years and find a different one that reminds you both of one another.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton,
I don't know how I feel. Sad, maybe. Like others have said, how I chooose to deal with it is up to me.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Brennan, do you feel better after what he told you this morning? I mean, is the hurt gone and replaced with understanding?
> 
> Maybe the two of you can pick out a new song together, go through the years and find a different one that reminds you both of one another.


To hell with all that. Just get naked. Makeup sex rules.


----------



## Trenton

Brennan said:


> Trenton,
> I don't know how I feel. Sad, maybe. Like others have said, how I chooose to deal with it is up to me.


Do you think maybe you feel more sad because of the fact that your relationship isn't at a strong point now to begin with?

Take stock in what your husband is telling you because I really think what he was saying is fair. That was your memory and he wanted to give it to you. Wouldn't you rather have a memory that is for both of you?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> Do you think maybe you feel more sad because of the fact that your relationship isn't at a strong point now to begin with?
> 
> Take stock in what your husband is telling you because I really think what he was saying is fair. That was your memory and he wanted to give it to you. Wouldn't you rather have a memory that is for both of you?



If all else was great in the relationship, this wouldn't hurt so much. 
Agree with you about the second part. And we do need to pick "our" song. Or sexual position, according to Deejo.


----------



## AFEH

Silly me. Just realised I’ve been trying to rescue a “victim” from herself. As is usual with this stuff first off it’s impossible and second off there’s no thanks.

I should have learnt my lesson from the past victims I’ve known.

They just never change no matter what calamities life throws at them. It’s aways “somebody else’s fault”.

Bob


----------



## Trenton

AFEH said:


> Silly me. Just realised I’ve been trying to rescue a “victim” from herself. As is usual with this stuff first off it’s impossible and second off there’s no thanks.
> 
> I should have learnt my lesson from the past victims I’ve known.
> 
> They just never change no matter what calamities life throws at them. It’s aways “somebody else’s fault”.
> 
> Bob


Sounds like you're playing the victim above. Giving up trying to help or caring, unless it's really affecting your personal life in a negative way is never an option for me. We can offer whatever we want but it's silly to be negative when our advice isn't taken or followed, right?


----------



## michzz

Brennan,

I don't think your H's comment about the song has anything at all to do with the significance of the song in your wedding.

He made that comment to wound you about the present.

It's possible he is feeling lousy about the current state of your marriage and felt as though being nostalgic about the beginning doesn't put the focus on now.

BTW, people jammin' you for being hurt by a deliberate zing at you by your husband are working out their own issues on your back, IMHO.


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> Sounds like you're playing the victim above. Giving up trying to help or caring, unless it's really affecting your personal life in a negative way is never an option for me. We can offer whatever we want but it's silly to be negative when our advice isn't taken or followed, right?


That's your take on it Trenton.

Bob


----------



## Deejo

michzz said:


> Brennan,
> 
> I don't think your H's comment about the song has anything at all to do with the significance of the song in your wedding.
> 
> He made that comment to wound you about the present.
> 
> It's possible he is feeling lousy about the current state of your marriage and felt as though being nostalgic about the beginning doesn't put the focus on now.
> 
> BTW, people jammin' you for being hurt by a deliberate zing at you by your husband are working out their own issues on your back, IMHO.


----------



## AFEH

michzz said:


> Brennan,
> 
> I don't think your H's comment about the song has anything at all to do with the significance of the song in your wedding.
> 
> He made that comment to wound you about the present.


What!!!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

If I may, at what point did I say I was a victim? I said I was hurt. I also said that how I chose to deal with this hurt is up to me. That hardly sounds like victim talk, IMO.


----------



## michzz

AFEH said:


> Victims of the world unite!


Like I said, working out your own issues...


----------



## nice777guy

Honesty is great. But being honest and insensitive is likely going to be a lonely road.


----------



## AFEH

Brennan said:


> If I may, at what point did I say I was a victim? I said I was hurt. I also said that how I chose to deal with this hurt is up to me. That hardly sounds like victim talk, IMO.


You did get round to saying that, yes Brennan.

Show your husband this thread. Print it out for him to read. I take no responsibility for his response or how it affects your marriage.

Bob


----------



## nice777guy

Bob - what are you expecting his response would be?


----------



## AFEH

michzz said:


> Brennan,
> 
> I don't think your H's comment about the song has anything at all to do with the significance of the song in your wedding.
> 
> He made that comment to wound you about the present.


What!!!!!


----------



## Deejo

Moving on ...

Brennan, what's your plan for tonight? 

Here is my awesome suggestion:

Thank him for his apology this morning. Honesty is what you got from him this morning. 

Then say something to the effect of:
"I want to work at this. Sometimes the work hurts. But I believe you are worth it. I believe we are worth it."

It's a statement about you. What you want and how you feel. It's not a challenge, test, or probe about him and what he wants. There is no agenda, but as a result of what you share - he may in turn offer up what he wants and how he feels.

At your discretion you can punctuate your statement with "b1tch" at the end if you think it will be effective.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Bob,
I don't know where you are going with this. Print this out and show it him? You almost imply that showing him my written feelings will further damage something. Not sure what you are getter at.


----------



## michzz

He didn't feel that way back when they married. He feels it NOW and wanted to wound her because he knew she feels that way about the song NOW and THEN.

Not to hard to follow.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Bob - what are you expecting his response would be?


NG, that would be pure speculation on my behalf. I haven’t got a clue other than how it would affect me.

AFEH? The EH is for Emotional Honesty. Without it we simply don’t know who our life partner is and we forever spin our wheels and get nowhere.

That’s why I suggested showing the thread.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

michzz said:


> He didn't feel that way back when they married. He feels it NOW and wanted to wound her because he knew she feels that way about the song NOW and THEN.
> 
> Not to hard to follow.


What!!!!!!!


----------



## nice777guy

Bob - you may disagree with michzz and I - who both seem to believe this was basically a passive aggressive jab and not just some great step towards honesty and openness. 

But to act as if our "theory" is some sort of impossibility just seems insane to me.

Not everyone understands the value of "forgive and move on" that you have championed. Brennan and her husband are obviously not at that place of honesty and forgiveness.

While I disagree with you, I'm not going to sit here and act like what you are saying is outrageous and blatantly untrue. In fact, Brennan seems to think her H was just being honest, and she knows a lot more about whats going on than I do.

Only one person really knows for sure...and he ain't postin'.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> Moving on ...
> 
> Brennan, what's your plan for tonight?
> 
> Here is my awesome suggestion:
> 
> Thank him for his apology this morning. Honesty is what you got from him this morning.
> 
> Then say something to the effect of:
> "I want to work at this. Sometimes the work hurts. But I believe you are worth it. I believe we are worth it."
> 
> It's a statement about you. What you want and how you feel. It's not a challenge, test, or probe about him and what he wants. There is no agenda, but as a result of what you share - he may in turn offer up what he wants and how he feels.
> 
> At your discretion you can punctuate your statement with "b1tch" at the end if you think it will be effective.


I like this advice. Yes, he was honest. Hurtful but honest. Bottom line is, we need to talk. About this and about ALOT of things. Baby steps though. It can't be a verbal dump, if you will. 

Maybe a viking costume would help hold his interest. Yes, I went there.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Bob - you may disagree with michzz and I - who both seem to believe this was basically a passive aggressive jab and not just some great step towards honesty and openness.
> 
> But to act as if our "theory" is some sort of impossibility just seems insane to me.
> 
> Not everyone understands the value of "forgive and move on" that you have championed. Brennan and her husband are obviously not at that place of honesty and forgiveness.
> 
> While I disagree with you, I'm not going to sit here and act like what you are saying is outrageous and blatantly untrue. In fact, Brennan seems to think her H was just being honest, and she knows a lot more about whats going on than I do.
> 
> Only one person really knows for sure...and he ain't postin'.


NG. Some people “behave in a passive aggressive way”. For me it is the Shadow of the Nice Guy Nice Woman thing. So you will see passive aggression!

I don’t behave in a passive aggressive way. Therefore I don’t see passive aggression!

Of course passive aggression is a possibility. I didn’t see that in Brennan’s H.

Bob


----------



## nice777guy

Bob - just meet me out on the playground after school and we'll settle this the old fashioned way!

Anyone ever accused you of being stubborn?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Whoa, guys. Come on. 

Let's end this thread. I got solid advice and it's nice to have people to share things with so thank you to all.


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> Only one person really knows for sure...and he ain't postin'.


We don't actually know that. Her husband could be dutch for all we know. 

Brennan, you stay out of this. This has nothing to do with you ... No ... wait ...


----------



## nice777guy

Brennan said:


> Whoa, guys. Come on.
> 
> Let's end this thread. I got solid advice and it's nice to have people to share things with so thank you to all.


Stay out of this Brennan - it has nothing to do with you...


----------



## Deejo

See what happens when you let girls in?


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> Brennan, you stay out of this. This has nothing to do with you ... No ... wait ...


great - and not so great minds - think alike!

This is what happens when girls come into the Mens Lounge. I think its part of a master plan to divide and conquer us all.

Bob - teeter-totters at 2:45...


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> See what happens when you let girls in?


Ahem, girls?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Seriously though, if ladies aren't welcome in the men's lounge, then tell us that.


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo - are you reading my posts and then somehow back-time-stamping yours or something?

Two in a row - kinda creepy...


----------



## Deejo

Brennan said:


> Ahem, girls?


It's a term of endearment?

You enrich our lives and make us strive to be better. You captivate and confound us. You bring softness, warmth, compassion and vibrant joy to the mens clubhouse with your contributions. Of course you are welcome. 

Still waiting on the wet tee-shirt pics to get your membership card. Just sayin ...


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Bob - just meet me out on the playground after school and we'll settle this the old fashioned way!
> 
> Anyone ever accused you of being stubborn?


Well I think you just did NG. But then I don't "know" do I. Why is that?

Yes I can take this passive agressive thing to the nth degree lol.

Brennan. It's ok. We're men and it's how we play about sometimes. The very last thing I read in NGs post is that he wants to go outside.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

Brennan said:


> Whoa, guys. Come on.
> 
> Let's end this thread. I got solid advice and it's nice to have people to share things with so thank you to all.


Ah! Now you want to take control ... of your own thread lol.

Bob


----------



## nice777guy

Brennan - next time you need solid advice, just PM me so you don't have to wade through all these other comments!

And...You're Welcome!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> It's a term of endearment?
> 
> You enrich our lives and make us strive to be better. You captivate and confound us. You bring softness, warmth, compassion and vibrant joy to the mens clubhouse with your contributions. Of course you are welcome.
> 
> Still waiting on the wet tee-shirt pics to get your membership card. Just sayin ...


Lordy, what is it with men and t-shirts. Conrad snuck in to the ladies lounge and said the same thing.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

nice777guy said:


> Brennan - next time you need solid advice, just PM me so you don't have to wade through all these other comments!
> 
> And...You're Welcome!


Will do.


----------



## AFEH

Brennan said:


> Bob,
> I don't know where you are going with this. Print this out and show it him? You almost imply that showing him my written feelings will further damage something. Not sure what you are getter at.


Brennan, if you can't do it, ask yourself "Why can't I show my husband this thread?".



Bob


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Bob,
I never said I couldn't. I was wondering if or why you thought it would help. That's all. Not trying to hide anything from him.


----------



## Trenton

Sheesh go to the store for some apple cider with the kids and miss the fight on the playground = unfair.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> Sheesh go to the store for some apple cider with the kids and miss the fight on the playground = unfair.


:rofl::rofl:

It got a bit crazy. 
Hey, did you hear we need membership cards?

:rofl:


----------



## Affaircare

> For background info so we have an idea of what it was like for you: _He smiled and glided through it like Fred Astaire. I was his Ginger Rodgers. He was amazing and it was THE dance of a lifetime, for me at least_.


Please note, that was YOUR experience of it, not his. For him it may have been stiff, unnatural, embarrassing and the culmination of 3 months of lessons to learn something that was not a natural way of expressing himself...all to please you. So the song played, and THANK GOD IT'S OVER! His experience of that exact same incident may have been completely different from yours, just as valid as yours, and yet he can not share his experience with you because if he does, it's taken as a betrayal and "being insensitive."



> Tonight, after hearing the commercial from the other room, I walked in to the family room where he was, kissed him on the head and said "Don't you just love that song. Man, that takes me back".


Again, just a note. Let's "pretend" that in real life he doesn't just love that song. Is he in a safe haven in his home, and emotionally safe enough with his intimate partner (his spouse) to say, "Well actually I didn't really like that song. I danced to it to please you" and be transparent? If he were transparent and allowed you to see the True Him, would the response be one that encourages MORE transparency? Or is he in a no-win situation that requires him to continue to hide parts of his true feelings and true thoughts so he stays emotionally safe. 

Can you see that dilemma? After all the good advice given, I bet maybe you see it now, but I thought if we went step-by-step and then also offered some alternatives it might make a lot more sense. But at this split second he has to decide: "Do I show her the True Me and mostly likely get tears and blamed for hurting her? Or do I cover up the True Me so she doesn't blame me for her feelings?" That's a crummy spot to put him into, huh? And by the way--I do get it that you didn't do that intentionally. It's sort of the way some of us are taught to act and react! 



> Him: "What song"
> 
> I said "Our song".
> 
> _You shared a positive feeling surrounding a memory - with the expectation that his experience would mirror yours. You saw it as an opportunity to connect._
> 
> Him, "What song is that?"
> 
> Me: "The song we danced to as a newly married couple 17 years ago".


So just to put it off for a second while he figures out what to do, he asks for more info/data. That's a reasonable tactic and request. Be sure of the facts--don't misunderstand--ask for more. 

Note that at this point, you have an uncommunicated expectation: "I expect you to feel the same about this song as I do." The uncommunicated undercurrent is a threat "...if you don't it's going to create an upheaval tonight." 

So what's something you could do different? Well, assume that he is entirely his own person and may not experience things, think of things, or feel things the way that you do! So when you hear the song, you could say...

Your Reply: "Oh that's the song we danced to at our wedding! That meant so much to me! I love this song. Do you too?"  (The idea is to always give your partner the freedom/room to say "NO!" )

His reply: "What song?"

Your reply: "Make Someone Happy" (see how it's not "Our Song" assuming his experience was yours?)

You share YOUR positive feeling surrounding a memory - you see it as an opportunity to connect. But it's out there as an OFFER not an expectation, and the invitation is to give him the chance to share his side with you, not to mirror you. Does that make sense? Once you give him the name of the song, he could say...

His reply:"Oh that song. Well actually, I would have preferred something else".



> Him: "I would have preferred something else".
> 
> _His memory and experience was nothing like yours. In that moment, you were being emotionally honest - and so was he. But instead of wondering why he responded the way he did, or felt the way he felt, you saw it as a cruel betrayal_


So assuming he is an entirely different person from you and experiencing things differently than you do, he just opened up and shared with you. In that split second you can choose to see it as honesty or as a betrayal, but either way you are the one making the choice. Him saying those words, that way, in that tone of voice don't make him responsible for your choice. Do you see that? 

So let's pretend he did say those exact words. You could say: 

Your reply: "Oh REALLY? Wow that's a surprise. I was under the impression you associated good memories with that song too! So why would you have preferred something else?"

His reply: "Well I remember we danced to that for our first dance but honestly, my memory is that I was so nervous I felt sick, and like an idiot in front of everybody. I was trying really hard to make you happy that day." 

Your reply: "Oh I could see that. I always thought of that as a terribly romantic, private moment between us. Now when I hear that song I think of that feeling of being connected."

His reply: "I kind of thought you did." 

There...see how you two just SHARED? He was transparent and really shared his True Self, and you didn't tell him he couldn't be himself. You told him about your experience, listened to his experience, and accept him for who he is. And this would encourage him to actually open up to you and be transparent. 

When he opens up and shares his experience, and then is told that he betrayed you, he was insensitive, or he "made" you feel upset--actually that is putting responsibility for your emotions on him...and it teaches him that he's not accepted for who he is, he's not a separate individual from you (just sort of an "extension" of you) and he can not be transparent--he HAS TO hide some of the real him or he "gets it." 

I hope this helps. I know that for for-ev-er I did this exact same mistake and then wondered, "Why won't he be honest with me?" Well...I taught him that he got HURT if he was, so eventually he did was he was taught. That was MY BAD.


----------



## Trenton

Brennan said:


> :rofl::rofl:
> 
> It got a bit crazy.
> Hey, did you hear we need membership cards?
> 
> :rofl:


Membership cards you say? You're the type that leaves quietly but I'm the type that leaves kicking and screaming.


----------



## AFEH

Brennan said:


> Bob,
> I never said I couldn't. I was wondering if or why you thought it would help. That's all. Not trying to hide anything from him.


NG. Some people “behave in a passive aggressive way”. For me it is the Shadow of the Nice Guy Nice Woman thing. So you will see passive aggression!

I don’t behave in a passive aggressive way. Therefore I don’t see passive aggression!

Of course passive aggression is a possibility. I didn’t see that in Brennan’s H.

Bob


----------



## Affaircare

Brennan said:


> :rofl::rofl:
> 
> It got a bit crazy.
> Hey, did you hear we need membership cards?
> 
> :rofl:












Wet t-shirt submitted. Do I get a card?


----------



## AFEH

Brennan said:


> Bob,
> I never said I couldn't. I was wondering if or why you thought it would help. That's all. Not trying to hide anything from him.


Brennan I seriously don’t think it would be a good thing to do. That’s why I put the caveat in of “no responsibility for the outcome”.

This is how I see it. I could be very wrong. Your husband is carrying $100,000 debt. Is that the mortgage? Or is it “personal debt” outside of the mortgage? Either way I imagine it weighs heavily on his mind. He is facing possible redundancy and therefore loss of earning. Therefore more debt. And he’ll be worried about the bills that stop by every single month. He may be wondering how he is going to survive financially, without being declared bankrupt. He may be exceptionally worried about letting you down. Is your husband the main or sole breadwinner? If he is, be thankful he is paying the bills. Has he had an affair? Be thankful that he hasn’t. Does he take care of you when you are ill? Be thankful that he does. I hope you get my meaning.

Men cannot switch context like women can. Sometimes we have one heck of a lot on our minds. It is called “Responsibility”. It takes us a while to switch context from what we are thinking about … into something else. By the way. Your husband playing games is probably “avoidance behaviour”. In that he is probably avoiding what is on his mind by taking a break with the games. It is a world “without responsibility” for a little while.

You heard your song. You rushed in and expected your husband to immediately switch context and emotions from where he “was” to where you “were” with your thoughts and your emotions. He gave you his first response. It wasn’t a lie, it was his honesty.

Then when he contemplated, thought about your response he made his apologies to you. In my mind Brennan it don’t get much better than that.

Bob


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Affaircare,
Thank you for your advice. I am going to read it more closely tonight. Powerful stuff.

Your last post however was HILARIOUS. Oh my.


----------



## Trenton

Affaircare said:


> Please note, that was YOUR experience of it, not his. For him it may have been stiff, unnatural, embarrassing and the culmination of 3 months of lessons to learn something that was not a natural way of expressing himself...all to please you. So the song played, and THANK GOD IT'S OVER! His experience of that exact same incident may have been completely different from yours, just as valid as yours, and yet he can not share his experience with you because if he does, it's taken as a betrayal and "being insensitive."
> 
> 
> 
> Again, just a note. Let's "pretend" that in real life he doesn't just love that song. Is he in a safe haven in his home, and emotionally safe enough with his intimate partner (his spouse) to say, "Well actually I didn't really like that song. I danced to it to please you" and be transparent? If he were transparent and allowed you to see the True Him, would the response be one that encourages MORE transparency? Or is he in a no-win situation that requires him to continue to hide parts of his true feelings and true thoughts so he stays emotionally safe.
> 
> Can you see that dilemma? After all the good advice given, I bet maybe you see it now, but I thought if we went step-by-step and then also offered some alternatives it might make a lot more sense. But at this split second he has to decide: "Do I show her the True Me and mostly likely get tears and blamed for hurting her? Or do I cover up the True Me so she doesn't blame me for her feelings?" That's a crummy spot to put him into, huh? And by the way--I do get it that you didn't do that intentionally. It's sort of the way some of us are taught to act and react!
> 
> 
> 
> So just to put it off for a second while he figures out what to do, he asks for more info/data. That's a reasonable tactic and request. Be sure of the facts--don't misunderstand--ask for more.
> 
> Note that at this point, you have an uncommunicated expectation: "I expect you to feel the same about this song as I do." The uncommunicated undercurrent is a threat "...if you don't it's going to create an upheaval tonight."
> 
> So what's something you could do different? Well, assume that he is entirely his own person and may not experience things, think of things, or feel things the way that you do! So when you hear the song, you could say...
> 
> Your Reply: "Oh that's the song we danced to at our wedding! That meant so much to me! I love this song. Do you too?"  (The idea is to always give your partner the freedom/room to say "NO!" )
> 
> His reply: "What song?"
> 
> Your reply: "Make Someone Happy" (see how it's not "Our Song" assuming his experience was yours?)
> 
> You share YOUR positive feeling surrounding a memory - you see it as an opportunity to connect. But it's out there as an OFFER not an expectation, and the invitation is to give him the chance to share his side with you, not to mirror you. Does that make sense? Once you give him the name of the song, he could say...
> 
> His reply:"Oh that song. Well actually, I would have preferred something else".
> 
> 
> 
> So assuming he is an entirely different person from you and experiencing things differently than you do, he just opened up and shared with you. In that split second you can choose to see it as honesty or as a betrayal, but either way you are the one making the choice. Him saying those words, that way, in that tone of voice don't make him responsible for your choice. Do you see that?
> 
> So let's pretend he did say those exact words. You could say:
> 
> Your reply: "Oh REALLY? Wow that's a surprise. I was under the impression you associated good memories with that song too! So why would you have preferred something else?"
> 
> His reply: "Well I remember we danced to that for our first dance but honestly, my memory is that I was so nervous I felt sick, and like an idiot in front of everybody. I was trying really hard to make you happy that day."
> 
> Your reply: "Oh I could see that. I always thought of that as a terribly romantic, private moment between us. Now when I hear that song I think of that feeling of being connected."
> 
> His reply: "I kind of thought you did."
> 
> There...see how you two just SHARED? He was transparent and really shared his True Self, and you didn't tell him he couldn't be himself. You told him about your experience, listened to his experience, and accept him for who he is. And this would encourage him to actually open up to you and be transparent.
> 
> When he opens up and shares his experience, and then is told that he betrayed you, he was insensitive, or he "made" you feel upset--actually that is putting responsibility for your emotions on him...and it teaches him that he's not accepted for who he is, he's not a separate individual from you (just sort of an "extension" of you) and he can not be transparent--he HAS TO hide some of the real him or he "gets it."
> 
> I hope this helps. I know that for for-ev-er I did this exact same mistake and then wondered, "Why won't he be honest with me?" Well...I taught him that he got HURT if he was, so eventually he did was he was taught. That was MY BAD.


All great advice and insight.

Brennan, I think you have to decide if you even want to change yourself a little. Do you see this as 50/50 blame with you having to be willing to make some changes as well or are you comfortable with resenting your husband? 

I wonder what would happen if you decided to change yourself and your reactions/expectations to him. It's hard to say what's really going on because I'm not in the relationship. I wonder if you've ever written a list of things you wish he would change and had him write a list of things he wished you changed?


----------



## Trenton

Affaircare said:


> Wet t-shirt submitted. Do I get a card?


Is that Deejo? :rofl:

I say you get an all access membership for that one!


----------



## Trenton

I actually agree with Bob here on all counts and I swear that I'm not just trying to get to play a game of golf.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Bob,

Thank you. I agree with what you wrote. Just to clarify, we both work and the debt is mortgage that we jointly own. He IS however worried about his job. It weighs on him. It weighs on me too.

Just so everybody knows, I come here to post and yes I talk about my marriage and other things. That in NO way means that he is to blame and I am without fault. Not by a long shot. I am working on myself and reading books about how to "refocus" myself. Is it working? Not yet. Will it? I can hope.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Is that Deejo? :rofl:
> 
> I say you get an all access membership for that one!


In all seriousness? The face is alarmingly similar - I mean scary resemblence (hair and makeup not included). Belly and bod, no where close.

Seriousness off? Breasts are pretty much dead on, but I have smaller nipples.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo,
You kill me. These threads always break down to the inane. Hilarious as all get out.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> In all seriousness? The face is alarmingly similar - I mean scary resemblence (hair and makeup not included). Belly and bod, no where close.
> 
> Seriousness off? Breasts are pretty much dead on, but I have smaller nipples.


Hmmm...do you often have that same facial expression?


----------



## nice777guy

Brennan said:


> These threads always break down to the inane.


Hence the REAL reason you won't show this or any other thread to your husband.

"You actually LISTEN to these people?"


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

nice777guy said:


> Hence the REAL reason you won't show this or any other thread to your husband.
> 
> "You actually LISTEN to these people?"


He'd find this stuff hilarious as all hell. He has a wicked sense of humor and it tends to run dark. It's all the heavy, serious stuff here that would scare the pants off of him.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> Hmmm...do you often have that same facial expression?


Would you in the future please warn me before I read something as hilarious as that. A PM perhaps? I almost had a seizure I laughed so hard. 

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## AFEH

Brennan said:


> Bob,
> 
> Thank you. I agree with what you wrote. Just to clarify, we both work and the debt is mortgage that we jointly own. He IS however worried about his job. It weighs on him. It weighs on me too.
> 
> Just so everybody knows, I come here to post and yes I talk about my marriage and other things. That in NO way means that he is to blame and I am without fault. Not by a long shot. I am working on myself and reading books about how to "refocus" myself. Is it working? Not yet. Will it? I can hope.


I saw your post in the General Relationship Discussion forum … about age.

If marriage is thought of, pictured, as an entity in and of itself, bit like an organisation, then it has quite a lot to contend with.

Changes as years pass by in the partners in the marriage are one of those things the marriage contends with, as to whether it likes it or not. Change happens to us. That’s guaranteed.

Sounds like you two are coming up to one of life’s transitions, because of your biological age. It’s a time when we look back to see how we got where we are and we “look” forward to see where we are going if we stay on the path through life we’re already on. These sort of changes bring an additionally “tension” into the dynamics of the partners and therefore into the marriage.

To get a little idea of what I’m on about, take a look at Normal Psychological Development. The article talks about men and for me at least it is very true.

But women also go through their life changes, not the least being their menopause.

These personal life changes of the partners in the marriage are an “addition” to the marriage to everything else that is already there.

Bob


----------



## Trenton

Ever look at the word menopause closely?

Men o pause

teehehe


----------



## nice777guy

If you are going to focus on how you react to things, look into a workbook called Mind Over Mood. Its cognitive behavioral stuff that helps you train your mind to separate what you hear from what you are reading into things.

- You hear "I didn't like the song"
- You think/feel "he doesn't want to be married and this isn't going to work"
- Then you basically list out the supporting evidence - all the reasons why you might believe he was being crappy or passive aggressive or whatever.
- Then you list the reasons that you may be wrong - possibly things he's done or recent changes he's made to show you that he is working on things - or that he has a million other things on his mind
- Then you revisit the "he doesn't care" thought and re-evaluate using the evidence.

If you do this once a day with a "major event", you'll slowly start doing a shorter version in your head when you get upset.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Well no physical change at all. Emotional sure. Creeping up on a milestone birthday for both of us. It is hitting him harder, I guess because his is only a few months away.


----------



## F-102

Dang, when I first saw this post, there were only a few responses and the issue was that you think your H took a great sentimental memory and minimized it. (Yes, I replied too, and I wasn't too nice).
But then I come back a few hours later and there are NINE pages of one of the craziest barroom brawls I had ever seen.

But, seriously, I think you read too much into his response, and I will give you the benefit of the doubt, it was still fresh in your mind, and it takes awhile to get over that. But the way some of the responders reacted, it sounds like they believe he spent your whole marriage just waiting to come up with the perfect, hurtful response to a Jimmy Durante song. Like this was his daily planner:
1) Take kids to school
2) Get secretary a card for her birthday
3) Meeting at 10 o'clock with VIP client
4) Research the possible responses that I can come up with for the day sometime in the future when she just happens to hear that song that I really didn't want, and then all these years of heartburn inducing resentment will be unleashed-and vengeance will finally be mine! Ha Ha Ha Ha!
5) Pick up milk on way home
6) Put kids to bed


----------



## Trenton

F-102 said:


> Dang, when I first saw this post, there were only a few responses and the issue was that you think your H took a great sentimental memory and minimized it. (Yes, I replied too, and I wasn't too nice).
> But then I come back a few hours later and there are NINE pages of one of the craziest barroom brawls I had ever seen.
> 
> But, seriously, I think you read too much into his response, and I will give you the benefit of the doubt, it was still fresh in your mind, and it takes awhile to get over that. But the way some of the responders reacted, it sounds like they believe he spent your whole marriage just waiting to come up with the perfect, hurtful response to a Jimmy Durante song. Like this was his daily planner:
> 1) Take kids to school
> 2) Get secretary a card for her birthday
> 3) Meeting at 10 o'clock with VIP client
> 4) Research the possible responses that I can come up with for the day sometime in the future when she just happens to hear that song that I really didn't want, and then all these years of heartburn inducing resentment will be unleashed-and vengeance will finally be mine! Ha Ha Ha Ha!
> 5) Pick up milk on way home
> 6) Put kids to bed


Finally, some insight into how men's minds really work!


----------



## Affaircare

Brennan said:


> He'd find this stuff hilarious as all hell. He has a wicked sense of humor and it tends to run dark. It's all the heavy, serious stuff here that would scare the pants off of him.


...And yet he'd be PANTSLESS which is a very good thing! 

I vote show him the wicked humor here and wait for the pants to drop! :smthumbup: :smthumbup: :smthumbup:


----------



## Affaircare

*Note to Self:* 

Deejo's new avatar:









...return to the argument. Thx!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Affaircare,
Thank you for your response. I have lots to work on, for sure.

And thank you for the complete hilarity you brought with the picture/avatar. It's a heck of a lot better than the vorpal bunny/screaming child avie he is currently sporting.


----------



## Trenton

Brennan said:


> Affaircare,
> Thank you for your response. I have lots to work on, for sure.
> 
> And thank you for the complete hilarity you brought with the picture/avatar. It's a heck of a lot better than the vorpal bunny/screaming child avie he is currently sporting.


I don't know, I sort of have a thing for the bunny.


----------



## Deejo

Affaircare said:


> *Note to Self:*
> 
> Deejo's new avatar:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...return to the argument. Thx!


Done. 

Away with Santa Claws

Hello Dolly Deejo ...

This should enhance my credibility with members of the site enormously.


----------



## Deejo

Pandakiss said:


> im gald someone finnaly called that out. very creepy...and wth, did i miss. you fall asleep one night of the week and this happenes.
> 
> uhhh...was anything actually resolved??? orrr...???
> 
> :rules:
> so i hope we dont need pics for our mem cards. but if thats the only rule of mens club...oh....can we talk about it...????


We don't actually ever resolve anything Pandakiss. We just get bored with whatever crap we're dealing with and move on to new crap.


----------



## greenpearl

Deejo said:


> We don't actually ever resolve anything Pandakiss. We just get bored with whatever crap we're dealing with and move on to new crap.


I do see a lot of crap going on. 

But a lot of them is good crap!

Crap stinks. 

How about something else?


----------



## greenpearl

Pandakiss said:


> k just checking....
> if you change your pic to that i will be forced to find something so awful.....
> dont make me do it......:FIREdevil::banned2:
> yes it would be so bad i would be for life


I don't like that picture either. 

Don't know how to make him change to a better one!

Maybe he should dress up like a stud.


----------



## Trenton

Dolly Deejo...ah beautiful alliteration.

Panda, you're in the member's club whether you like it or not and if you don't have a picture affaircare can find a great one for you


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## WadeWilson

Sorry ten pages later I forgot what the topic was...
But deejo... Don't... Man your pictures are just shocking... ROTFLOL!!!


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## Deejo

Yeah ... can't do it with the cross-dressing av.

I find it ... unsettling. I'll leave my photo up for a bit. Just a bit. Then it's back to shocking.


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## greenpearl

WadeWilson said:


> Sorry ten pages later I forgot what the topic was...
> But deejo... Don't... Man your pictures are just shocking... ROTFLOL!!!


Hey Wade, 

Your picture always gives me a headache when I read your posts!


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## greenpearl

Deejo said:


> Yeah ... can't do it with the cross-dressing av.
> 
> I find it ... unsettling. I'll leave my photo up for a bit. Just a bit. Then it's back to shocking.


I like this one! Is that really you? 

Wow, good looking!!!


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## Deejo

greenpearl said:


> I like this one! Is that really you?
> 
> Wow, good looking!!!


Without the wig and makeup ... yes, that's me. Thank you for the compliment.


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## Trenton

OK Deejo, you now have permission to make whatever comments you want. How you doin' good lookin'?


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## Deejo

Trenton said:


> OK Deejo, you now have permission to make whatever comments you want. How you doin' good lookin'?


Oh pishaw ... now I'm getting all bashful.
But seriously, if you look at the side by sides it's kind of scary. I guarantee if I sent AC's headshot of Dolly Deejo out to my friends, they would truly think it was me ... and I assure you sportsfans ... it is not.


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## Trenton

Deejo said:


> Oh pishaw ... now I'm getting all bashful.
> But seriously, if you look at the side by sides it's kind of scary. I guarantee if I sent AC's headshot of Dolly Deejo out to my friends, they would truly think it was me ... and I assure you sportsfans ... it is not.


Hmmm well there is a resemblance but you'll have to repost a picture of you making that face. Mmmmhmmm.


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## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Hmmm well there is a resemblance but you'll have to repost a picture of you making that face. Mmmmhmmm.


Negative on that happening, Trenton.


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## greenpearl

WadeWilson said:


> Sorry ten pages later I forgot what the topic was...
> But deejo... Don't... Man your pictures are just shocking... ROTFLOL!!!


I like your new avatar!


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## nice777guy

For the record, I waited by the teeter-totter until 3:15 and Bob never showed.

And yes - Deejo is one handsome man.


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## Trenton

The teeter totter...good times, good times.


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## WadeWilson

greenpearl said:


> I like your new avatar!


And I, also yours...


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## takris

AFEH said:


> I think that’s rather a generalisation!
> 
> Bob


Re: European cultures vs American culture

Did you somehow propose the premise that all generalizations are inherently wrong, and then prove it somewhere? Or, must they be constrained by your assumptions of political correctness? Sociologists who mourn the lack of empathy in the "me generation" and its impact on divorces are just making generalizations?

I was subtly trying to tell you that the assumptions you make about human nature, like that people do not intentionally set out to hurt, might itself be a generalization. A growing number of young men in certain cultures lack aspects of basic empathy due to the prevalence of the "me" mentality, which doesn't necessarily apply to some cultures.


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## Deejo

Out of curiousity, the premise of what started this 'event' got me wondering; are there 'triggers' that you can both be aware of for the purpose of mutual gain?

I can say, that to this day, if ever ex and I are somewhere and hear our song, we look at each other and smile. It's a feel-good.

On a grander scale, this is also referred to as 'patterning' in gaming circles. It's about both consciously and subconsciously steering an interaction or conversation to illicit positive emotions. Emotions that could relate to success, bonding, well being, or sex.

Think about your triggers, and think about your husbands. Maybe have the discussion to share thoughts, memories, or events that bring up feel good emotions for the both of you - and then you can judiciously use them in the future.

You know you will have struck gold when your partner 'lights up'. I can't recall who brought it up before, but somebody mentioned their husband lit up talking about routers. The conversation may not get you laid, but by cultivating that excitement or enthusiasm to 'relate' in your partner, you are building a better relationship for the both of you.


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## Therealbrighteyes

We talked alot last night and we both agree to find "our song". He said he was being honest with me and that while he liked that song, he never felt it was ours. I wish he could have told me while we were planning the wedding, all those years ago. Am I hurt, yeah. Do I understand his point of view. Heck yeah. He is really trying now and sometimes does a verbal dump and his honesty is difficult at times, since he spent so many years just holding it all in. 
While we didn't find "our song" that is wedding appropriate, we found "our song" for something else last night. Har har. Checked one thing off both our bucket lists. It was freaking rad!


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## SimplyAmorous

Brennan said:


> He said he was being honest with me and that while he liked that song, he never felt it was ours. I wish he could have told me while we were planning the wedding, all those years ago.


 I was thinking this the whole time, why in the world didn't he say anything THEN if he felt like this ? Why parents had any say at all in something like this baffles me. 

A new song, a new beginning. PLease share the new song you both choose with us.


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## Therealbrighteyes

SimplyAmorous said:


> I was thinking this the whole time, why in the world didn't he say anything THEN if he felt like this ? Why parents had any say at all in something like this baffles me.
> 
> A new song, a new beginning. PLease share the new song you both choose with us.


He didn't say anything then, because he knew how much that song meant to me and he wanted me to be happy. Our parents didn't pick that song, I did. He said he loved it. Yes, he likes the song but he never thought it was "our song". I found that part out two days ago. 

Anyways, our new non-wedding song, um, er, well, it's not what you think. It isn't romantic at all. You go from Jimmy Durante to this, well, it's REALLY different. 

It's Aerosmith's "Back In The Saddle Again".


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## Deejo

Turbo Lover by Judas Priest?


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## Affaircare

heh heh 


I'm just going to say...."I can relate."  We have Foghat's "Slow Ride"... for obvious reasons.  :awink:


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## Therealbrighteyes

Affaircare said:


> heh heh
> 
> 
> I'm just going to say...."I can relate."  We have Foghat's "Slow Ride"... for obvious reasons.  :awink:


Ha Ha. I love that song. It is a tad before my time but a fantastic song none the less.


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## Trenton

Our song is "Fall with your Knife" by Peter Murphy. 

Ahhhh the beauty of a dysfunctional, functional relationship.


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## Trenton

YouTube - Peter Murphy - I'll Fall With Your Knife

That's right, you know you want to listen to it.


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## Affaircare

Brennan said:


> Ha Ha. I love that song. It is a tad before my time but a fantastic song none the less.


My fellow Men's Clubhouse membership card-holder, I believe that **I** am before your time.  :lol:

Does anyone have a song that's their "we dance to this one" song? Ours is "As Time Goes By" from Rod Stewart's Great American Songbook (it's the theme song to 'Casablanca'... which is our movie)


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## nice777guy

I remember in college we listened to Kenny G sometimes...

Shows what lengths *I* was willing to go to!!!

Also - back in college - renting The Fabulous Baker Boys became kind of a running joke. Probably rented it at least 5 times one semester and never even started to watch it.

Maybe I'll stop at the video store on the way home tonight...


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## Therealbrighteyes

Affaircare said:


> My fellow Men's Clubhouse membership card-holder, I believe that **I** am before your time.  :lol:
> 
> Does anyone have a song that's their "we dance to this one" song? Ours is "As Time Goes By" from Rod Stewart's Great American Songbook (it's the theme song to 'Casablanca'... which is our movie)


Well I thought it was Jimmy Durante but now, no. We will find our new dance song. In the meantime we found our "other" song.
I'll set the scene....Dear Penthouse Forum.
We bought a hot tub a few months ago and have used it often, each other, alone. So last night after talking we decided to go outside, into the hot tub to relax before bed. We have mounted outdoor speakers and hubby turns on the components. So there we are chilling in the hot tub. Suddenly Steven Tyler and his awesomeness comes through the speakers with Back in the Saddle Again. I look at hubby and said, "you look hot (pause, pause, pause...tonight". He said "get over here". I did. It ended up with sex on our deck. So I got to check off "outdoor sex" from my bucket list and he got to check off "water sex and outdoor sex" from his. 
He woke up early today and cleaned out the filter of the hot tub. :rofl: Love that man!

**Blush for sharing**


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## Deejo

I think jacuzzi's exist for the sole purpose of outdoor sex. All the therapeutic crap is a smoke screen.


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## nice777guy

My wife had insisted that underwater sex - not shower or wet sex, but truly underwater - was "impossible" because the water washed away the natural lubrication.

We proved her theory wrong - in the hot tub - about a month ago. And it was awesome!


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## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> I think jacuzzi's exist for the sole purpose of outdoor sex. All the therapeutic crap is a smoke screen.


Oh it was therapeutic alright.  And awesome as all get out. Moonlight and a slight drizzle. Perfect.


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## Therealbrighteyes

nice777guy said:


> My wife had insisted that underwater sex - not shower or wet sex, but truly underwater - was "impossible" because the water washed away the natural lubrication.
> 
> We proved her theory wrong - in the hot tub - about a month ago. And it was awesome!


Yes, it is a tad rough in water but really awesome too. It was just all around amazing. It started to rain a bit and the moon was out. Wow. It was special. 
And now my in-laws arrive in 3 hours. Can we just go back to last night?


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## Conrad

Brennan said:


> Well I thought it was Jimmy Durante but now, no. We will find our new dance song. In the meantime we found our "other" song.
> I'll set the scene....Dear Penthouse Forum.
> We bought a hot tub a few months ago and have used it often, each other, alone. So last night after talking we decided to go outside, into the hot tub to relax before bed. We have mounted outdoor speakers and hubby turns on the components. So there we are chilling in the hot tub. Suddenly Steven Tyler and his awesomeness comes through the speakers with Back in the Saddle Again. I look at hubby and said, "you look hot (pause, pause, pause...tonight". He said "get over here". I did. It ended up with sex on our deck. So I got to check off "outdoor sex" from my bucket list and he got to check off "water sex and outdoor sex" from his.
> He woke up early today and cleaned out the filter of the hot tub. :rofl: Love that man!
> 
> **Blush for sharing**


Seriously - now you're getting somewhere.

Our hot tub is awesome also.

First major purchase I made after we moved into the house. I've never regretted it - not for one minute.

No blushing.


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## greenpearl

Brennan said:


> Well I thought it was Jimmy Durante but now, no. We will find our new dance song. In the meantime we found our "other" song.
> I'll set the scene....Dear Penthouse Forum.
> We bought a hot tub a few months ago and have used it often, each other, alone. So last night after talking we decided to go outside, into the hot tub to relax before bed. We have mounted outdoor speakers and hubby turns on the components. So there we are chilling in the hot tub. Suddenly Steven Tyler and his awesomeness comes through the speakers with Back in the Saddle Again. I look at hubby and said, "you look hot (pause, pause, pause...tonight". He said "get over here". I did. It ended up with sex on our deck. So I got to check off "outdoor sex" from my bucket list and he got to check off "water sex and outdoor sex" from his.
> He woke up early today and cleaned out the filter of the hot tub. :rofl: Love that man!
> 
> **Blush for sharing**


   

Congratulations!!!

I like to read positive posts!!!

I like to see people happy!


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## marco100

Brennan said:


> He didn't say anything then, because he knew how much that song meant to me and he wanted me to be happy. Our parents didn't pick that song, I did. He said he loved it. Yes, he likes the song but he never thought it was "our song". I found that part out two days ago.


Since the day you got married until the other day when this first came up, how often have you listened to your "marriage song" together with your husband? How often have you discussed it?

It almost sounds like you haven't really listened to it or discussed its meaning w/your husband since the day you got married.

If that's the case, then an entirely different perspective on this situation is that you may have invested this song with a false or fictitious sentimentality. An ersatz emotionalism/nostalgia as a stand-in for an emotional connection that is lacking from your present day relationship.

To your husband, the wedding song may lack emotional vitality and authenticity as a reflection of the current deficiencies in your relationship. It may also symbolize what he perceives as current deficiencies in your marriage and therefore he remembers his experience through a subjective, negative lens which colors his entire emotional experience. 

I don't think it's helpful in dealing with these sorts of complex relationship issues to view incidents like this one, as independent, atomized, and unconnected from what's going on in the rest of your relationship. The interaction is part of the whole. Maybe it's best understood if somehow you can integrate the exchange with your husband about the song, into the context of what's going on in your relationship as a whole. 

You could try an olive branch such as: "It really meant a lot to me at the time. But now that I know you would have personally preferred a different song, the fact that you were willing to choose this one with me means even more to me."


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