# Men and Modesty



## Code-Welder

This came up in a thread else where in the forum but it got me thinking and talking to my son's and grandsons over Christmas. It seems males today are much more modest around not only other men but it seem around women more so than they were back 30-40 years ago.

I am in my late 60s and though some men were modest in general most men were not as they are today. Nor was how society treated males and modesty. Example at the YMCA males we required to swim nude. It did not seem to be a concern and it was treated as normal. Based on what my grandsons tell me as well as my sons boys do not even shower after gym class these days.

I do not know they average age on this site but wonder, how many men here are modest when it comes to using public showers or going to the gym. Or in general, it was not uncommon when I was in my youth to skinny dip with my male buddies. There was nothing sexual about it, it was just easier to strip and swim in the lake than carry around swimming shorts or to get our clothing wet.

In my late teens early 20s it was common for mixed couples to swim together. Most times everyone would swim natural. I do recall some of the girls would wear bottoms but most were always topless. When I mentioned this to my grandsons as part of the discussion they seemed shocked. 

I guess I am wondering if this is the new norm for men under the age of say about age 30? I have read a interesting analogy as to why by jaquen. I was just curious why males today are more modest. The thread was well viewed with over 43,277 looks, on something that in my past was seldom even talked about. Men just knew the answer for the most part since there was less modesty.


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## Hope1964

I think North American culture is becoming more modest as a whole, not just for men. From the little I know, it seems Europeans have far less hang-ups about nudity than North Americans.


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## Code-Welder

Hope1964 said:


> I think North American culture is becoming more modest as a whole, not just for men. From the little I know, it seems Europeans have far less hang-ups about nudity than North Americans.


There is no question Northern Europe is far less modest than Americans. Back when I was stationed in Germany they were more so but nothing like it is today. Last time I went on a business trip to Germany and visited a sauna it was coed and there was no modesty. Everyone seemed relaxed and no hang ups.

When I was young my Mom and the other ladies were more modest than men. But even they were more relaxed with themselves than women today. My wife was modest but did not worry to much around me in the bedroom. But it seems males today are on about the same level as women and that was never the case when I was growing up.

Seems like males and females get all there input as to shape and size of other people from media sources these days. From what I see online and in line at the grocery store magazine rack the people are not your average shape or size. 

Hope do you think people today feel or have the desire to look like what they see in the media?


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## MaritimeGuy

I wonder if it has anything to do with how people grow up today versus how they did in the past. It wasn't unusual in the past for siblings to share bedrooms. Obviously you're going to frequently see your sibling getting dressed or getting ready for bed under those conditions. 

Today, families are smaller and houses are bigger so many kids grow up having their own room and the sense of privacy that entails.


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## Code-Welder

MaritimeGuy said:


> I wonder if it has anything to do with how people grow up today versus how they did in the past. It wasn't unusual in the past for siblings to share bedrooms. Obviously you're going to frequently see your sibling getting dressed or getting ready for bed under those conditions.
> 
> Today, families are smaller and houses are bigger so many kids grow up having their own room and the sense of privacy that entails.


That would make sense, when I was growing up my bro and I not only shared a bed room in a small house, we had to take bathes together till age 7 or 8. My Father was very cheap, a depression age man and cheap. Joint baths saved water, and only allowed 5" of water in the tub.


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## Hope1964

Code-Welder said:


> Seems like males and females get all there input as to shape and size of other people from media sources these days. From what I see online and in line at the grocery store magazine rack the people are not your average shape or size.
> 
> Hope do you think people today feel or have the desire to look like what they see in the media?


Definitely.


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## WorkingOnMe

My father in law grew up in the Boy Scouts skinny dipping, but now the rules strictly forbid it for any Boy Scout swimming.

My youngest son is 10. For years my wife has gone into the bathroom while he showered to help him wash his hair (because he did such a bad job of it). About 2 weeks ago she went to help him and discovered the bathroom door locked. lol I guess he's found his modesty!


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## Maricha75

Code-Welder said:


> That would make sense, when I was growing up my bro and I not only shared a bed room in a small house, we had to take bathes together till age 7 or 8. My Father was very cheap, a depression age man and cheap. Joint baths saved water, and only allowed 5" of water in the tub.


That kinda passed on to my generation as well. Mom took showers with us girls for the first few years, then we girls took baths together. LOL not saying it was only 5" of water, but we still had to share our baths until we got to about age... 9? 10? Anyway, even when we were kids, we never swam nude... not together, not with anyone else. Not even "just topless". But even our guy friends never did. One sister and I are mid-late thirties. Our guy friends are the same age group. My husband is on the edge of that "cut off" age you mentioned. And he never did either. So I can't say it's an age thing, really. I think it's more in how each family has raised their children.

For about 4 years, we shared a bedroom with our children. That's not just one child at a time...that's all three of them. So, the personal space idea doesn't always apply either. As I said, I think it's more about how the parents raise their children, rather than the ages. For instance, I breastfed all three of my kids. I have shown my son that it isn't something to be ashamed of, and that if he sees a woman doing it, to not shame her in any way. At the same time, I also have expressed my displeasure (as has his dad) at women who parade around in virtually nothing, purely to get attention. Anyway, that's just my opinion on the subject.


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## pb76no

In the US, I think it has alot to do with how easy it is to be "accused" of something and/or have your actions or lack of modesty misinterpreted. You can't say or do anything, much less wear anything, without someone acting as the morality police and quickly involving the real police as a result.


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## Mavash.

As a parent I think it's fear based. The news is filled with stories of child abuse and molestation. Pull up the register and there is a sex offender in every neighborhood. Teachers, bus drivers, pastors and yes other kids.

I'm married to a cop so I know what I speak of. So yes we teach modesty because we think it offers some version of 'safety' even though it probably doesn't.


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## WyshIknew

Our first place only had a bath. I used to have to sneak up to the bathroom because as soon as my son and daughter discovered I was having a bath they would immediately strip off and jump in with me. Bath time with dad seemed to be fun time.
I have bathed with my grandsons but not with my step granddaughter as that did not seem right.

Is that my hangup or proper prudence do you think?


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## Gaia

Mavash. said:


> As a parent I think it's fear based. The news is filled with stories of child abuse and molestation. Pull up the register and there is a sex offender in every neighborhood. Teachers, bus drivers, pastors and yes other kids.
> 
> I'm married to a cop so I know what I speak of. So yes we teach modesty because we think it offers some version of 'safety' even though it probably doesn't.


I agree with this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MaritimeGuy

WorkingOnMe said:


> My youngest son is 10. For years my wife has gone into the bathroom while he showered to help him wash his hair (because he did such a bad job of it). About 2 weeks ago she went to help him and discovered the bathroom door locked. lol I guess he's found his modesty!


It's funny how this happens. One day they'll change right in front of you without a second thought...the next day they have their bedroom door locked with a chair wedged against it. It's almost as though a switch gets flipped.


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## MaritimeGuy

Mavash. said:


> As a parent I think it's fear based. The news is filled with stories of child abuse and molestation. Pull up the register and there is a sex offender in every neighborhood. Teachers, bus drivers, pastors and yes other kids.
> 
> I'm married to a cop so I know what I speak of. So yes we teach modesty because we think it offers some version of 'safety' even though it probably doesn't.


I believe it's perception. I think just as much, if not more, inappropriate behaviour occurred in the past. Back then though it was considered shameful..for the victim as well as the perpetrator...and was often hidden. 

I recall as a kid creepy guys in the neighbourhood who would give candies to kids to go to their houses. All us kids knew who these guys were. Some kids went and others didn't. I never thought much about it at the time...just that the guy was strange. I don't recall any fuss ever being made about it. When I think back on it it's scary what potentially happened. I wasn't one of the kids who would go so I don't know.


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## Code-Welder

Maricha75 said:


> That kinda passed on to my generation as well. Mom took showers with us girls for the first few years, then we girls took baths together. LOL not saying it was only 5" of water, but we still had to share our baths until we got to about age... 9? 10? Anyway, even when we were kids, we never swam nude... not together, not with anyone else. Not even "just topless". But even our guy friends never did. One sister and I are mid-late thirties. Our guy friends are the same age group. My husband is on the edge of that "cut off" age you mentioned. And he never did either. So I can't say it's an age thing, really. I think it's more in how each family has raised their children.
> 
> For about 4 years, we shared a bedroom with our children. That's not just one child at a time...that's all three of them. So, the personal space idea doesn't always apply either. As I said, I think it's more about how the parents raise their children, rather than the ages. For instance, I breastfed all three of my kids. I have shown my son that it isn't something to be ashamed of, and that if he sees a woman doing it, to not shame her in any way. At the same time, I also have expressed my displeasure (as has his dad) at women who parade around in virtually nothing, purely to get attention. Anyway, that's just my opinion on the subject.


My father was very cheap, 5" of water was the max, less if you used hot water. Hot water cost money. He even would limit the amount of sheets of toilet paper. He never made much back in those days a civil servant but we always had food on the table and a roof over our head.

You make another good point, I recall my wife breast feed my sons and on more than one time it was done in public like the park. She would just drape a small towel or blanket over her shoulder. No one use to say a thing, no one use to care, it was natural. My daughter in law a couple years back was doing the same thing and two people said something and she was asked to leave the park. That is nuts.

My sons were telling me over Christmas that some of this started in the late 70s where we lived. Showers after gym were no longer required. They were use to taking showers and it was kind of expected so the boys did not smell in class. They told me most kids stopped but they kept on taking showers as did a handful of other boys. But my oldest grandson told me no one takes showers in school any more. Maybe gym is not the same as when I was in school but I and the other boys would seat a lot and I can not imagine just putting on extra after shave lotion and getting dressed to go to class. That is what I was told most kids now do.

I know I was a little apprehensive when I first had to take showers in Jr High but having taken public showers at the pool with my Dad and brother I soon got over the concern. A few kids would horse play and pick on other kids but it was not a big issue. It did allow me default to see other young men my age without clothing. I never thought much about it, other than I could see we all had a package and we all developed at different rates. I was late to puberty and worried about it, but saw that a few other guys were also late which made me feel normal. 

My daughter-in-law was talking about this with us at Christmas and mentioned a study on increase steroid use. The article liked it to changes young men felt that had to do to be normal, which in this case was look like a guy in a media advertizement. Which I know is not the normal for how people look. The increased modesty seems to be increasing the misconception of what a normal body looks like, how else would a young person know these days. 

In the prior thread I explained how our family always went camping and public showers were the norm. Now with my grandsons they were not sure if it was okay. There Father's my sons explained to them as I did to my sons as my Father told me, it is okay it is normal. You take your cloths off, take a shower using soap and then dry off and get dressed again. There is nothing wrong with doing that in a public shower. But now that is not normal, that concerns me. 

I do not like looking at other guys naked, but frankly I do not care either way. I go to the Y, work out, hit the sauna, then shower and dry off. If there are other guys around to me there are just there doing what men do. What brought the topic up at dinner during Christmas was a young man a few lockers up from me that did some sort of kabuki dance under a towel to get undressed and dressed in the locker room. It drew more attention than if he just did what use to be normal.

There can be a happy medium between the modesty of Northern Europe and Americans. Only getting input about what people look like strictly from media sources is not healthy.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

> Originally posted by Wysh:
> Our first place only had a bath. I used to have to sneak up to the bathroom because as soon as my son and daughter discovered I was having a bath they would immediately strip off and jump in with me. Bath time with dad seemed to be fun time.
> I have bathed with my grandsons but not with my step granddaughter as that did not seem right.
> 
> Is that my hangup or proper prudence do you think?


As she's your 'step', I think it's proper prudence. In this day and age, accusations fly thick and fast!

I'm glad you posted that because I was almost afraid to put that my daughter would occasionally take a bubble bath with her dad. She liked to put beards and bubble hats, etc on him. 

We all used to swim together nude in our pool. We lived in the country and you couldn't see our pool (without trespassing). She was maybe 3-4 years old. We just treated it like 'no big deal' and that's how she treated it, too. We did ALMOST get caught one time....heard a strange noise, grabbed everyone's suits and threw it to them so we could get out of the pool and investigate. It was a hot-air balloon that soon flew right overhead (they would have had an eyeful!) so close that we could converse with them in a normal tone of voice. (the noise was the propane heater being turned on/off to heat the air)


BTW: I'm 56yo, STBXH is 64yo, and daughter is 15yo.


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## MrAvg

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> As she's your 'step', I think it's proper prudence. In this day and age, accusations fly thick and fast!
> 
> I'm glad you posted that because I was almost afraid to put that my daughter would occasionally take a bubble bath with her dad. She liked to put beards and bubble hats, etc on him.
> 
> We all used to swim together nude in our pool. We lived in the country and you couldn't see our pool (without trespassing). She was maybe 3-4 years old. We just treated it like 'no big deal' and that's how she treated it, too. We did ALMOST get caught one time....heard a strange noise, grabbed everyone's suits and threw it to them so we could get out of the pool and investigate. It was a hot-air balloon that soon flew right overhead (they would have had an eyeful!) so close that we could converse with them in a normal tone of voice. (the noise was the propane heater being turned on/off to heat the air)
> 
> 
> BTW: I'm 56yo, STBXH is 64yo, and daughter is 15yo.


I am 58 and when I was in HS you had to take a shower after gym class. The gym teacher was the health teacher and it was explained that is was good hygiene. My parents were not modest at home but they were not exhibitionists either. I recall bathes with my Dad and brother.

I think the young people are far more modest today than when I was in school. I know my sons age 20 and 22 have not been in a public shower since age 9 or 10 when on vacations. Neither played sports but their friends did and they showered after practice. Now most schools have private stalls. 

Young men today view taking a public shower as in some way being gay. There are a lot of homophobic people. I am comfortable with my sexuality so being around other men in a locker room does not bother me. In general I see more guys under age 40 have seldom showered with other guys unless they played sports or served in the military. Taking a public shower and being clean is now seen as being gay.


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## Code-Welder

WorkingOnMe said:


> My father in law grew up in the Boy Scouts skinny dipping, but now the rules strictly forbid it for any Boy Scout swimming.
> 
> My youngest son is 10. For years my wife has gone into the bathroom while he showered to help him wash his hair (because he did such a bad job of it). About 2 weeks ago she went to help him and discovered the bathroom door locked. lol I guess he's found his modesty!


I think that is kind of normal for a boy his age. He is likely starting puberty and boys become more modest around parents at that time. Moms in particular. Plus there hormones are starting to change. My sons as I recall got a bit modest around that age. They lost it in a couple years or less after puberty was complete.


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## Code-Welder

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> As she's your 'step', I think it's proper prudence. In this day and age, accusations fly thick and fast!
> 
> I'm glad you posted that because I was almost afraid to put that my daughter would occasionally take a bubble bath with her dad. She liked to put beards and bubble hats, etc on him.
> 
> We all used to swim together nude in our pool. We lived in the country and you couldn't see our pool (without trespassing). She was maybe 3-4 years old. We just treated it like 'no big deal' and that's how she treated it, too. We did ALMOST get caught one time....heard a strange noise, grabbed everyone's suits and threw it to them so we could get out of the pool and investigate. It was a hot-air balloon that soon flew right overhead (they would have had an eyeful!) so close that we could converse with them in a normal tone of voice. (the noise was the propane heater being turned on/off to heat the air)
> 
> 
> BTW: I'm 56yo, STBXH is 64yo, and daughter is 15yo.


Our house where the kids grew up is like your in the country and if you could see the pool you were trespassing. My sons often skinny dipped as did my wife and I late at night when our sons were in bed. We just made sure the pool lights were off.

Please do not get me wrong mix couples skinny dipping in my teens and 20s was not common. The lake and streams where I grew up were very secluded. But when we did do it it was not a big deal. 4 of the people ended up getting married to each other.

Some modesty is a good thing, but I think in general the pendulum has swung a little to far.


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## Code-Welder

WyshIknew said:


> Our first place only had a bath. I used to have to sneak up to the bathroom because as soon as my son and daughter discovered I was having a bath they would immediately strip off and jump in with me. Bath time with dad seemed to be fun time.
> I have bathed with my grandsons but not with my step granddaughter as that did not seem right.
> 
> Is that my hangup or proper prudence do you think?


It would see to be proper prudence in today's world. My sons often would jump in with me but not their mother. We had a 2 head shower in the basement and mom would use the upstairs bathroom while the men got ready down stairs if we were in a hurry.


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## MaritimeGuy

It occurs to me that as a kid there was a certain amount of peer pressure to appear comfortable changing/showering in front of the other boys. As in, the kid who was afraid to do it would stand out and it would probably be remarked on. 

Recently, I was swimming on my lunch hour. There was a school class using the pool at the same time. I would estimate the boys were around 12. The change room at the pool has a mostly open change area with a few stalls. Everyone of these boys was lining up to use a stall to change into their swim trunks. 

After my swim I stripped down in the shower to wash off the chlorine. The boys fled the shower area like rats fleeing a burning ship. I though it was kinda amusing at the time.


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## ShawnD

Code-Welder said:


> I am in my late 60s and though some men were modest in general most men were not as they are today. Nor was how society treated males and modesty. Example at the YMCA males we required to swim nude. It did not seem to be a concern and it was treated as normal. Based on what my grandsons tell me as well as my sons boys do not even shower after gym class these days.


Lawsuits. Kid with damaged penis is mocked -> parent sues. Teacher walks in to tell the students to hurry up -> parent sues and teacher is thrown in jail for looking at naked underage boys.



> I do not know they average age on this site but wonder, how many men here are modest when it comes to using public showers or going to the gym. Or in general, it was not uncommon when I was in my youth to skinny dip with my male buddies. There was nothing sexual about it, it was just easier to strip and swim in the lake than carry around swimming shorts or to get our clothing wet.


Homophobia. In your days, it was thought that 99.999999% of men were completely heterosexual. Now we realize that a much larger percentage of men are attracted to men to some degree. That automatically makes it sexual to some degree.



> In my late teens early 20s it was common for mixed couples to swim together. Most times everyone would swim natural. I do recall some of the girls would wear bottoms but most were always topless. When I mentioned this to my grandsons as part of the discussion they seemed shocked.


As a whole, USA is becoming more right wing every year. By policy, Obama is more right wing than Reagan was. Obamacare was proposed by Bob Dole and the republicans in the 90s, and now it's considered extreme left wing. Wait another 20 years, and it will look like the middle east. Women will have their entire bodies covered. The democrats and republicans will argue over how much ankle women are allowed to show in public.


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## Code-Welder

ShawnD said:


> Homophobia. In your days, it was thought that 99.999999% of men were completely heterosexual. Now we realize that a much larger percentage of men are attracted to men to some degree. That automatically makes it sexual to some degree.


I agree with most of what you are saying, except for this part. We knew some of the boys were likely gay in my high school, but they were quiet about it and they took showers with everyone else. No one as I recall singled them out. I can see in these days where gay males want to be more open and accepted. This does not always go over as well.

There were always a kid or two in a class that had body issues but I do not recall excessive attention or bully behavior toward them. I was a little tubby and a small package and no one ever bothered me. All being in a shower all natural in some ways was a great equalizer but I see how in today's world it may or would create problems.

More so from how parents are with schools these days. When I went to school and if I got a swat I got two. My mom was on the PTA and knew all the teachers, and told them straight up. If my brother and I got a swat we got one more from them. 

Schools are no longer the same to parents now as they were in the back then. Parents today spend less time at the schools with work and all. My mom was a homemaker where today most mothers seem to work. So less are at school during the day like my mom. parents today seem more in conflict with teachers and the schools than when moms stayed at home for the most part.

Course we also had volunteer fire departments and less taxes back then. I guess what concerns me today is the lack of male bonding and innocence males had that they no longer can have today. At least here in America as compared to Northern Europe. Europe tends to have a healthy view point to being nude.


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## Code-Welder

ShawnD said:


> By policy, Obama is more right wing than Reagan was.


I do not talk much about politics outside of political forums, but I do not agree with you evaluation.

The only thing Reagan and Obama have in common is they both have Keynesian ideas. But they are 180 degree apart as to how it works. One thing I believe is the country is becoming far more polarized than in any time I can recall.


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## ShawnD

Code-Welder said:


> I do not talk much about politics outside of political forums, but I do not agree with you evaluation.
> 
> The only thing Reagan and Obama have in common is they both have Keynesian ideas. But they are 180 degree apart as to how it works. One thing I believe is the country is becoming far more polarized than in any time I can recall.


I worded that badly. Things like "more left" are not easy to measure. My main point is that the spectrum has moved so far to the right that people forget how far it has moved. In modern times, Reagan might have trouble running as a democrat. The republicans would definitely not tolerate his left wing policies:
Obama Vs. Reagan: Who's More Conservative? - YouTube

-Reagan and his republicans proudly supported amnesty for illegals who have lived in the US and put down roots. Obama did the same thing with the Dream Act, and modern day republicans freaked out. Obama was also responsible for deporting a record number of illegals, far more than Bush or Reagan.
-Reagan invited the leader of the USSR to talk (omg!!). Modern day republicans ripped Obama apart when he mentioned talking to leaders of other countries.
-Reagan was the one who traded arms for hostages during the Iran-Contra thing. Technically that counts as negotiating with terrorists, which is "weak" in modern times.
-Reagan was the one who cut and run out of Lebanon when things started to get messy. Modern republicans were saying that's what democrats would do if they were elected. Of course that didn't actually happen, and Obama sent even more troops to Iraq after being elected. 
-Obama refused to raise taxes on the middle class. Reagan initially lowered taxes then jacked them up every year after that.
-Reagan invited an openly gay couple to the white house.

It gets even weirder if you keep going back in time. Remember republican president Eisenhower? That guy was so far left that he would probably be called a communist by today's standards.

quotes from Ike:


> *"Workers have a right to organize into unions and to bargain collectively with their employers. And a strong, free labor movement is an invigorating and necessary part of our industrial society."
> 
> *"Only a fool would try to deprive working men and women of their right to join the union of their choice."
> 
> *"Should any political party attempt to abolish Social Security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things, but their number is negligible and they are stupid."


The future will be interesting. Eventually we'll go back to arresting people for swearing.


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## Code-Welder

ShawnD said:


> I worded that badly.
> The future will be interesting. Eventually we'll go back to arresting people for swearing.


Shawn your post points I have read countless times before. The are selected out takes from a over all different philosophy both of what Reagan and Obama have been doing during their terms. Both parties have gone through major changes over the last 50 years. 

I could very easily slice and dice your analogy but I will not do that in this TAM forum. I leave that for political forums. I suggest you read a book "Free to Choose" it shows how Reagan and Obama differ.


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## gbrad

I can honestly say that no other male has ever seen me naked (adult wise not counting as a very young kid). Maybe if I had more confidence in my overall body it wouldn't be a big deal; as in 6 pack abs, larger than most ****, and basically looking like what all the women want. But since that isn't true, I will stick to only those who want to have sex with me for other reasons to seeing me naked.


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## MrAvg

MaritimeGuy said:


> It occurs to me that as a kid there was a certain amount of peer pressure to appear comfortable changing/showering in front of the other boys. As in, the kid who was afraid to do it would stand out and it would probably be remarked on.
> 
> Recently, I was swimming on my lunch hour. There was a school class using the pool at the same time. I would estimate the boys were around 12. The change room at the pool has a mostly open change area with a few stalls. Everyone of these boys was lining up to use a stall to change into their swim trunks.
> 
> After my swim I stripped down in the shower to wash off the chlorine. The boys fled the shower area like rats fleeing a burning ship. I though it was kinda amusing at the time.


It is amusing, and kind of sad. When I read through this thread it seems to be a microcosm of American cultures changes the last generation or two. As it relates to what was normal and natural 40 years ago. 

I was abused as a kid, it had nothing to do with modesty. It was a manipulative well respected neighbor. If people worry about pedophilia in public showers, worry more about friends and neighbors.


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## soccermom2three

The fact that almost everyone has a camera phone these days, I prefer that my two sons, 14 and 7, have a bit a modesty when they change in a gym locker room or wherever. I don't want anyone "accidentally" taking a picture of them.


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## MrAvg

soccermom2three said:


> The fact that almost everyone has a camera phone these days, I prefer that my two sons, 14 and 7, have a bit a modesty when they change in a gym locker room or wherever. I don't want anyone "accidentally" taking a picture of them.


Your concern is understandable, the gyms I go to all have a strict no cell phone use. But that does not prevent someone from sneaking shots. Modesty is a good thing but it has gone to the extreme of phobia. I just want my sons and people to have a healthy attitude about their bodies. 

The difference is striking when I was in the Netherlands seeing a old college friend last summer on attitudes from sex to modesty. It just seems like a healthier mind set than where Americans are headed.


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## Shoto1984

As a child growing up in the 60's - 70's in Florida I often left the house to go out and play all day with nothing but shorts on. No shirt/no shoes. When I saw men working outside they rarely had shirts on (its hot most of the year in Fla.). These days I'm the only man around who does outside work without a shirt. Not sure if everyone is embarrassed about not being in shape or prude. Obviously attitudes in general have changed a lot since the 70's.


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## gbrad

Shoto1984 said:


> As a child growing up in the 60's - 70's in Florida I often left the house to go out and play all day with nothing but shorts on. No shirt/no shoes. When I saw men working outside they rarely had shirts on (its hot most of the year in Fla.). These days I'm the only man around who does outside work without a shirt. Not sure if everyone is embarrassed about not being in shape or prude. Obviously attitudes in general have changed a lot since the 70's.


For me it has always been because I felt like I wasn't in good enough shape. Changing in front of other people, even just my shirt, not my favorite thing. I have gotten more confident over the years though.


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## Code-Welder

gbrad said:


> For me it has always been because I felt like I wasn't in good enough shape. Changing in front of other people, even just my shirt, not my favorite thing. I have gotten more confident over the years though.


What is interesting is the vast majority of males have some sort of body imperfection. But it today's world of modesty men do not see other males flaws. They think everyone has 6 pack abs and big packages. That is part of the problem with to much modesty.

I have about 15-20 lbs I could lose but I am okay with how I look I have seen a lot of out of shape men. I feel comfortable with me. Thanks for the input men, it does seem times have changed. Men is general seem more concerned about how they look.

I was out at our country home this week end and family slept over. When we all went to the gym all of the males in my family shower afterward natural. I guess our talk around Christmas made my grandsons more comfortable. But it was clear the norm is to wear trunks, we were the only males showering natural.


----------



## I Notice The Details

Hope1964 said:


> I think North American culture is becoming more modest as a whole, not just for men. From the little I know, it seems Europeans have far less hang-ups about nudity than North Americans.


This seems to be true. Whenever I go to Little Beach on Maui, I notice that people from Europe usually peel all their clothes off and put on suntan lotion while standing up in front of everyone. They don't have a second thought about being nude. This is true for entire families....both young and old. I really admire this self confidence. 

The typical American comes to this beach, and carefully peels their bathing suit off while sitting down on a towel, after carefully looking around, and making sure NO ONE is looking. 

Our family also had a Swedish exchange student come and live with us for a year. I was in 9th grade, and this girl had NO problem changing all of her clothes at any time whether her door was open or not. Not a second thought. It was quite refreshing to be talking to her whenever she needed to change. I remember talking to her a lot. :smthumbup:


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## williamjones

modest. but mostly b/c i'm insecure about my "size"


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## Code-Welder

williamjones said:


> modest. but mostly b/c i'm insecure about my "size"


I use to worry about my size as a kid. But when you have to shower with other males you learn you are likely more normal than you may think. One thing it helped me with is understanding what is normal and being much more self confident about my body. 

That is part of the problem today, I bet your idea of normal comes out of a media source. What you see in the media are not normal looking people.

To be honest I seldom even notice other men when I go to the gym shower. If you have seen enough nude men over the years you kind of become conditioned to nude is normal. "I Notice The Details" mentioned what a health attitude Europeans have about being nude. In Europe being nude in saunas and showers is the norm not the exception. 

jaquen, brought up some interesting points as to why males are this way now. Also why it is not a healthy attitude in another thread about mens package sizes and what is normal. Being comfortable with your body and sexuality seems to be a big issue these days.

I guess this is a concern for some men today since men see for the most part as examples is porn and media driven conceptions. Modesty has it's place, but seems American males are getting paranoid about modesty when around other men. Which was not the normal 40 years ago.


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## MrAvg

One thing I did notice today about using the showers at the gym. I seldom if ever have to wait for a shower head to be open. The only men using showers for the most part these days are mature men using the locker room showers.

I thought about this thread when a couple guys in their 20s came in the locker room shower and showered with their gym shorts on. I guess that is the new normal for younger men these days.


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## cowboy1

Most of the time I go to the gym myself, but sometimes I go with my wife. Either way, I usually take an extra shirt, some boxer shorts and some regular shorts to change into when I'm done. I don't mind the showers at the gym (they're single use showers) but I usually just like taking a more thorough shower at home with my own shampoo, shower gel, etc. I have used gym showers a couple times if I need to go somewhere from the gym, and my wife isn't waiting for me. I grew up with public showers so I'm not overly modest, but I don't flaunt my nakedness like some others. Now to be perfectly honest, maybe I would be even less self-concious if I had a larger unit. But at the same time, I think it would be very unhygienic, uncomfortable and inconvenient to be afraid to get naked in a men's locker room. I don't think guys really want to look at each other naked anyways, although when we're naked we feel self-concious. OK, we might look to compare sometimes, but that's probably our cultural need to feel "normal". My understanding is that women are much more modest in their locker rooms.


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## Wiltshireman

When I was a kid in the 60's & 70's I had to share a room with my two younger brothers and our family of 6 only had one bathroom. Until we boys went to senior school (aged 11) we had to share a bath.
At school all the boys go changed at the side of the pool whilst the girls got changed in the class room, I was in the Scouts where skinny dipping was normal as was having a strip wash at the sinks in the toilet block. After I left school I joined the Royal Navy were during basic trianing I shared a dorm with 31 other guys and one toilet block between 96 so not much chance of modesty there.

Because of this upbringing I do not have a problem with male nudity and I have brought my children up the same way my younger boys (8 & 2) still share a bath and I or my wife will go into look after the younger one / wash hair etc. When my daughters were little (pre school) it would often be me who bathed them as both my wife and I worked shifts.

When kids are young (under 5) they should not have to worry about nudity / body image / personal saftey etc we as parents should make sure they are safe. Children will soon let you know when they need privacy (the girls did not want dad in the bathroom by the time they were 9 or 10).


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## Code-Welder

Wiltshireman said:


> When I was a kid in the 60's & 70's I had to share a room with my two younger brothers and our family of 6 only had one bathroom. Until we boys went to senior school (aged 11) we had to share a bath.
> At school all the boys go changed at the side of the pool whilst the girls got changed in the class room, I was in the Scouts where skinny dipping was normal as was having a strip wash at the sinks in the toilet block. After I left school I joined the Royal Navy were during basic trianing I shared a dorm with 31 other guys and one toilet block between 96 so not much chance of modesty there.
> 
> Because of this upbringing I do not have a problem with male nudity and I have brought my children up the same way my younger boys (8 & 2) still share a bath and I or my wife will go into look after the younger one / wash hair etc. When my daughters were little (pre school) it would often be me who bathed them as both my wife and I worked shifts.
> 
> When kids are young (under 5) they should not have to worry about nudity / body image / personal saftey etc we as parents should make sure they are safe. Children will soon let you know when they need privacy (the girls did not want dad in the bathroom by the time they were 9 or 10).


My childhood was much like yours. Small house, shared bath with my brother. Used a public shower in high school and as you mentioned the military. The military was where you had no modesty. 

Today's males in the USA are turning extremely modest. Some is warranted but it seems to have gone beyond what is healthy. Europe has a much healthier attitude about public nudity.

I have two sons who are older and we lived in the country, they always swam naked till about age 8-9 when their bodies started to change. They did not want their mother to see them. We always showered together when camping and now my grand sons do as well. 

We had a long talk about men, body type size and all things kids worry about when growing up. I understand concerns about pedophiles etc. But there can be over protection, there were sickos when I was a kid. I was warned about them, knew what to do if confronted. We all talked about this as well. 

I was not much to look at as a kid, not much to look at now. I do not flaunt myself in the locker room but I do not hide myself either. I seldom pay much attention today at other naked men. I have come to expect I would see other guys naked in a locker room. 

As a kid I looked, it was how I learned I was normal, there were bigger guys and smaller guys and all type of body shapes. I learned I was normal and that has allowed me to not worry about my size or shape. I am self confident in my body and sexuality. I say sexuality since it was brought up in a thread now deleted that many males today fear public showers and using them for fear of being labeled as gay.

I think most young American males today are more modest than American women were back in the 60s. I do not think it is healthy but that is just one old man's opinion.


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## Quantmflux

Dont mean to necro an aging thread, but I wanted to say thanks to code-welder. Extremely interesting topic and I think he is truly on to something.

I'm in that category where it would be a tough choice for me between being naked in public and being dead, but I have some unique issues that exacerbate it. Overall though, I definitely think male body image issues are becoming an epidemic and the problem is compounded by the availability of Internet porn.

You see a lot of threads here on TAM about men losing interest in sex, porn addiction, etc. I think some of that is loss of confidence and I think a lot of that stems from what code-welder is talking about. In the total absence of exposure to what a normal, average, fellow man looks like, the gap is being filled by the highly idealized portrayal of the male body as scene in mainstream media and pornography.

In that 500 page thread on objectification there were a couple of actual scholarly posts, one of which called out the notion that the modern cultural response to correcting objectification of women was trending towards creating equal objectification of men. I think that is exactly what we are seeing and just as it can wreak havoc on a woman's psyche, to be body dysmorphic, it will wreak havoc on a mans. The old "YMCA pool" experience from back in the day could probably have helped mitigate some of that.


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## Code-Welder

Quantmflux said:


> Dont mean to necro an aging thread, but I wanted to say thanks to code-welder. Extremely interesting topic and I think he is truly on to something.
> 
> I'm in that category where it would be a tough choice for me between being naked in public and being dead, but I have some unique issues that exacerbate it. Overall though, I definitely think male body image issues are becoming an epidemic and the problem is compounded by the availability of Internet porn.
> 
> You see a lot of threads here on TAM about men losing interest in sex, porn addiction, etc. I think some of that is loss of confidence and I think a lot of that stems from what code-welder is talking about. In the total absence of exposure to what a normal, average, fellow man looks like, the gap is being filled by the highly idealized portrayal of the male body as scene in mainstream media and pornography.
> 
> In that 500 page thread on objectification there were a couple of actual scholarly posts, one of which called out the notion that the modern cultural response to correcting objectification of women was trending towards creating equal objectification of men. I think that is exactly what we are seeing and just as it can wreak havoc on a woman's psyche, to be body dysmorphic, it will wreak havoc on a mans. The old "YMCA pool" experience from back in the day could probably have helped mitigate some of that.


jaquen wrote a very good explanation on this issue and why it is problematic in a thread that was deleted. The thread exchange had some of the young men being more open minded after they read that part of the thread. 

They seem to better understand why older men were not concerned about locker room or shower nudity. They began to open their eyes about how they felt. I wish I could have saved jaquen's comments. My sons read the information and we used it to explain to my grandsons about how things use to be normal but why now a simple shower after gym class is taboo.

Maybe jaquen at some point can re-explain it here. It was very good concise explanation to what was normal between men for hundreds of years till about 40 years or so ago. I really do believe it helped my grandsons understand and helped my sons and myself better explain the new normal and why it has happened.


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## I Notice The Details

Quantmflux said:


> Dont mean to necro an aging thread...


I had to Google the word "necro"...does that mean I am getting old?


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## Kalerunner

Post caught my eye because I just recently joined a gym with the dreaded showers required before and after swimming! I am in my late twenties and grew up in a proper midwest town and was taught how shameful our bodies are and I grew up with some pretty severe body image issues so I had always feared the showers, I avoided joining said gym for years just because of this fact! Over the past few years I made some big changes in my life, I lost almost a hundred pounds, became a runner, became a cyclist, and decided i wouldn't let anything stop me from swimming so I could become a triathlete. After a few anxious first few visits I had a breakthrough, we are all human! The reason I love to trail run is because for the first time in my life I feel this connection to what it means to be a mammal and the showers helped me to remember this fact also, we are all just as we were created and there is nothing to be ashamed of.


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## cowboy1

This has been an interesting forum thread. I've thought more about my level of modesty. I first thought I was generally OK with my modesty level because I grew up with required public showers since the 7th grade. So I didn't think I had too much of a problem. For example, I change at the gym and occasionally shower. But after thinking more about it, that doesn't mean I'm really comfortable with it either. I still have "size" issues, and so I don't really walk around too freely, and usually have a towel close by. I'm still somewhat modest around my wife, even after 9 years of marriage. I don't mean I never get naked in front of her with the lights on, but I know that I should be much less self-concious around her all things considered. I think this has made me realize that I wish I was less self-concious. I think I'd rate myself a 5 on a 1 to 10 scale.


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## Code-Welder

Kalerunner said:


> Post caught my eye because I just recently joined a gym with the dreaded showers required before and after swimming! I am in my late twenties and grew up in a proper midwest town and was taught how shameful our bodies are and I grew up with some pretty severe body image issues so I had always feared the showers, I avoided joining said gym for years just because of this fact! Over the past few years I made some big changes in my life, I lost almost a hundred pounds, became a runner, became a cyclist, and decided i wouldn't let anything stop me from swimming so I could become a triathlete. After a few anxious first few visits I had a breakthrough, we are all human! The reason I love to trail run is because for the first time in my life I feel this connection to what it means to be a mammal and the showers helped me to remember this fact also, we are all just as we were created and there is nothing to be ashamed of.


You are saying some of same things other younger men were saying in a prior thread. I often wonder what came first the new age of modesty or "pretty severe body image issues" . I was a chubby little kid with a grower but learned that was not uncommon once I saw my peers.

I am still not a great looking guy, older now, a few extra lbs and same grower. But I do not care, I am not there to impress anyone. I do not parade around the locker room naked. Sometimes I wear a towel sometimes not, just depends on if I am wet or sweaty, I never really think much about it from a modesty stand point. Seeing other men naked is normal to me, I really don't think much about it.

If a man wants to work out, get all sweaty and get dressed that way that is fine. That seems the new normal, put on a lot of after shave then go to class if you are of high school age. I know when I was that age and I was all sweaty, I smelled. That is why you took a shower. Now as I understand it if you shower you are gay. I do not think it has as much to do with "pretty severe body image issues" boys, young men fear being nude in front of their peers, this was not normal till about 40 years ago.

I think jaquen was correct, it has to do more with men being secure with their own sexuality. I am sure some of it has to do with body image. But not to be redundant, if you do not see your peers and only see what the media shows you will have a distorted view point of what a normal male body looks like in real life.


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## ChiGirl

I just had a discussion with a friend about this- It seems that we have turned nudity into sexuality.
I'm originally from Europe and I remember going to beaches where sunbathing topless was no big deal, but when I tried doing it here it caused quite a stir, and even led to someone people calling me a ****!

It's really sad that we can't even see nursing mothers etc without someone pointing out how crude it is, while making sexual remarks.

I really think we are doing our children a huge disservice by trying to hide all sexuality and nudity, making it seem dirty. 

As for men taking their clothes off with other men.. well today that would label you as gay or perverse.


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## cowboy1

I kind of wonder how much of this has to do with a person's level of confidence in general. I work in a building with a lot of people. As you walk by guys, some won't even make eye contact. I would imagine those guys are extremely modest. I work with a guy who's 33 y/o. He's very outgoing. He told me in high school he just got tired of being smelly at school at started showering, and some of his friends, although initially thinking he was crazy, soon followed suit. So although I agree most of today's modesty is a sign of the times, some might be personality, regardless of age.


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## hookares

ChiGirl said:


> I just had a discussion with a friend about this- It seems that we have turned nudity into sexuality.
> I'm originally from Europe and I remember going to beaches where sunbathing topless was no big deal, but when I tried doing it here it caused quite a stir, and even led to someone people calling me a ****!
> 
> It's really sad that we can't even see nursing mothers etc without someone pointing out how crude it is, while making sexual remarks.
> 
> I really think we are doing our children a huge disservice by trying to hide all sexuality and nudity, making it seem dirty.
> 
> As for men taking their clothes off with other men.. well today that would label you as gay or perverse.


I agree that the damage that is being done to children has yet to be measured. Some are even hesitant to go to a doctor for medical treatment for fear of having to expose themselves to others. Down the road, this will lead to irreparable harm since the older we get the more likely it is that we will need attention.
As far as men not wishing to shower in groups goes, some occupations require that an employee shower before leaving the work place and often this entails an open area where as many as twenty can shower at one time. Thus far, the only places I have ever worked separated the sexes with an isolation wall for showering and dressing. Otherwise it was "open season".


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## Grayson

hookares said:


> I agree that the damage that is being done to children has yet to be measured. Some are even hesitant to go to a doctor for medical treatment for fear of having to expose themselves to others. Down the road, this will lead to irreparable harm since the older we get the more likely it is that we will need attention.
> As far as men not wishing to shower in groups goes, some occupations require that an employee shower before leaving the work place and often this entails an open area where as many as twenty can shower at one time. Thus far, the only places I have ever worked separated the sexes with an isolation wall for showering and dressing. Otherwise it was "open season".


This thread, and the subject of American views on nudity and (by extension) sexuality reminded me of some song lyrics by a band called Ten Hands, in a song called "I Was Confused (About the Television Set)":

I watched this show just the other night
And I must say somethin' was not right
How come people in television's weird in the head?

Well, they won't show sex, but they show a lot of killin'
I guess it must be better to show blood spillin'
Than to let little Junior see two naked people in bed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gbrad

Code-Welder said:


> Yo
> 
> I think jaquen was correct, it has to do more with men being secure with their own sexuality. I am sure some of it has to do with body image. But not to be redundant, if you do not see your peers and only see what the media shows you will have a distorted view point of what a normal male body looks like in real life.


Being insecure with sexuality or being insecure with yourself can both play a part in it. I know I have always seen other men as competition. In that regard, the more you know about your enemy, the easier it is to defeat them. If I wasn't secure in my own body and what I was working with overall, I didn't want other guys seeing it all because then they knew exactly what they were up against.


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## Wiltshireman

This thread has prompted me to think about the whole "body image" thing for boys / young me. I had previously thought these insecurities where "just for girls" with the amount of pressure they are under in the press / media to be "just so". I guess that it is getting to the boys as well now.

I think I was lucky growing up being in the generation that did not have any privacy from other boys / men, we all showered in public after exercise (I was always of doing sport as a kid, swim team, rugby, boxing, martial arts, track) so to me it was just NORMAL to see naked boy / men, there was nothing "Gay" about it. These views were re-enforced once I joined the military were for 10 years you did everything with your shipmates. Easier then as it was no women at sea and no (openly) gays at all.

Now kids seem to spend all their free time sat in front of a PC / Laptop / games consol doing at little sport as they can get away with.


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## Code-Welder

Wiltshireman said:


> This thread has prompted me to think about the whole "body image" thing for boys / young me. I had previously thought these insecurities where "just for girls" with the amount of pressure they are under in the press / media to be "just so". I guess that it is getting to the boys as well now.
> 
> I think I was lucky growing up being in the generation that did not have any privacy from other boys / men, we all showered in public after exercise (I was always of doing sport as a kid, swim team, rugby, boxing, martial arts, track) so to me it was just NORMAL to see naked boy / men, there was nothing "Gay" about it. These views were re-enforced once I joined the military were for 10 years you did everything with your shipmates. Easier then as it was no women at sea and no (openly) gays at all.
> 
> Now kids seem to spend all their free time sat in front of a PC / Laptop / games consol doing at little sport as they can get away with.


It is concerning modern male youth are on par with female counter parts these days when it comes to modesty. The fear of being nude around other guys is so foreign to me I have trouble grasping it all.

It seems even kids that play sports today do not all shower afterward. This is what my grandsons tell me. They get dressed all sweaty and go home and shower or back to class. 

My sons and grandsons have had a couple long talks about what is normal today and before. My oldest grandson is in Junior High and mentioned he may just try using the shower after gym. I told him girls like guys that do not stink and I think he understands it is normal in our countries to use public showers. I have not talked to them in a couple weeks, I need to ask him if he tried it.

The kids today are being media fed what males are supposed to look like, and that is not the normal for most men. Time will tell how it effect young men. I know it has opened my grandsons eyes to what is normal. My son both used showers after gym in HS but they were the few left in their class to do so.

It is not normal to fear other males seeing you naked. It use to be normal and accepted in the US. It still is in Europe and many other countries.


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## MeditMike80

I have no issues with nudity at all. My family are European immigrants so to them being naked around the house wasn't a big deal. We weren't nudists or anything but walking to the bathroom nude for a shower was no big deal. I still walk around naked at home when getting ready to go to work, school, or wherever. No big deal to me.


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## Code-Welder

MeditMike80 said:


> I have no issues with nudity at all. My family are European immigrants so to them being naked around the house wasn't a big deal. We weren't nudists or anything but walking to the bathroom nude for a shower was no big deal. I still walk around naked at home when getting ready to go to work, school, or wherever. No big deal to me.


Key point is "European immigrants" likely first generation. Most Northern Europeans and other Europeans are comfortable with their bodies and their sexuality. The problem is young people in the USA are not. It use to be primarily women, not males are afraid to show themselves. 

As I recall one man mentioned here he was that way with his wife to some extent. I can not relate being modest around women at the very least my wife. She saw me naked all the time. I was not modest around our sons either. I did not flaunt it I just did not think it was unhealthy for my sons to see me in my natural suit.

My son who is pretty athletic seems the same way from the joking my DIL has mentioned once this topic came up. Being comfortable with yourself no matter how you look is healthy.


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## Rags

Just to clarify - "Northern Europeans" does not include the British.

(Not socially, economically, culturally ... only barely, geographically ...)

Male nudity here is rare, above todler age.

Women are more frequently seen barely dressed, than men.


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## Code-Welder

Rags said:


> Just to clarify - "Northern Europeans" does not include the British.
> 
> (Not socially, economically, culturally ... only barely, geographically ...)
> 
> Male nudity here is rare, above todler age.
> 
> Women are more frequently seen barely dressed, than men.


I never thought of the British as European, many British have similar issues that USA males have about nudity. Still my limited time I have spent in the UK they culture does still seem less paranoid about being nude around same sex peers in locker rooms and showers.

"Male nudity here is rare, above todler age." just about the same as here. I have met more Brits and nude beaches in southern Europe.


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## Rags

yeah .. when Brits go to places where nudity is the norm, seem to not have much trouble accomodating.

We just don't do it at home ...


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## Wiltshireman

Rags said:


> yeah .. when Brits go to places where nudity is the norm, seem to not have much trouble accomodating.
> 
> We just don't do it at home ...


I don't know there used to be quite a "naturist" thing in the UK, I ran an section of ridged raiders up the beach at sandbanks in the early 80's and found that was a "nudist beach" much to the amusement of the Marines I was training, the naked people on the beach and the guy on the ice cream van “3 dozen 99’s please”


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## Rags

Sure, I understand there are naturist areas - never actually seen one, mind - but it's area restricted.

if you tried to tell people on the beaches in Europe that they shouldn't sunbathe topless (or in some cases, bottomless) I suspect they wouldn't even understand the concept.

Topless sunbathing outside of restricted areas is much rarer in the UK, IME - and I've never seen public male nudity.
Changing rooms seems to have got more conservative too, in swiming pools, although possibly because they tend to be mixed gender with cubicles now.


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## Wiltshireman

Rags said:


> Changing rooms seems to have got more conservative too, in swiming pools, although possibly because they tend to be mixed gender with cubicles now.


I was gratefull for the arrival of the "family changing cubicle" its much easier to sort out a couple of wet / wriggley under 5's if there is another parent to help you out. On the rare occations we have a whole family trip to the pool we have either three cubicles or 3 sessions in one cubicle,"two teenage daughter", "Mum and the youngest one" "Dad and the other two boys". We have never had a problem on the beach as we just take it in turn to hold up the towels for each other.


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## Code-Welder

Rags said:


> Sure, I understand there are naturist areas - never actually seen one, mind - but it's area restricted.
> 
> if you tried to tell people on the beaches in Europe that they shouldn't sunbathe topless (or in some cases, bottomless) I suspect they wouldn't even understand the concept.
> 
> Topless sunbathing outside of restricted areas is much rarer in the UK, IME - and I've never seen public male nudity.
> Changing rooms seems to have got more conservative too, in swiming pools, although possibly because they tend to be mixed gender with cubicles now.


You find very few public places that allow topless sunbathing here in the USA. There is a growing number of private clubs and resorts. The few public places are not supposed to be topless but legal discretion is used by the local law enforcement as long as it is kept there are no major complaints from other sun bathers.


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## Code-Welder

Worth reading about the consequences of the main topic. 

NOT_AVAILABLE This is available, the title is wrong.

Much of it comes from this study.

http://www.msoe.edu/life_at_msoe/cu...ental_health/body_image_dissatisfaction.shtml


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## chillymorn

I have noticed that my 14 yr old won't take a shower at school.
after gym class he wheres his underwhere to take a shower and after lifting weights he waits to come home to shower when I asked him he said its just weird taking a shower.

I told him to take a shower after lifting so he doesn't need to take one at home and he has refused.

when I was in school everybody took a shower after gym class together and also after football pratice. if someone commented on your body (size or fat or whatever everybode said whats your problem you shouldn't be looking are you gay? and that pretty much kept everybody from saying anything!

now if you popped a bonner well then thats a different story.......everybody laughed and some teasing but it was kept in the locker room .

not sure if I should push the issue with him or just let it play out. I don't think its that hes ashamed of his size or a body issue because hes good to go and in great shape.


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## Code-Welder

chillymorn said:


> I have noticed that my 14 yr old won't take a shower at school.
> after gym class he wheres his underwhere to take a shower and after lifting weights he waits to come home to shower when I asked him he said its just weird taking a shower.


There was a very good thread some months back that went into depth on this topic, I think it was deleted. Modern men are now much like women since they no longer take open public showers. They are getting a ever skewed body image since all they see for the most part is the media. Much like women have for a very long time. Like it or not public open showers let men and women see they are pretty much the same as everyone else. 

I saw how much the ladies reacted when someone asked about helping a wife with body image. Women for a very long time have seldom showered together. Now it has become more the norm for men. Except for some areas of the country and guys who play sports or were or are in the military they seldom if ever see other guys naked. So all they can compare to is media images which for the more part are not normal.

My sons were in the last classes of their high school to shower. 1/2 of the class did not take showers. This all started mid 1970s. My sons were use to male public showers as a family when we went camping and at public pools. My sons tell me it is not cool these days to take showers after gym. My grandsons are hearing this at school. Where they are use to showering with male friends and family while camping. 

It can be a little intimidating first time a guy steps naked into a public shower with other males. But just as you mentioned it all shakes out pretty quick and I can not recall teasing. All I can say is I think it was a huge benefit to my self esteem knowing I am pretty normal male. 

I see the difference when I go to the gym these days. Most of the young guys get dressed all sweaty and head home. Or get dressed while wearing a towel, now that is a hoot to watch. Most of the older guys shower and some sit around and relax with towels. Some are less modest than others but they really do not care. It is normal to them as it is for me to strip down and shower. Most guys do not parade around the locker room naked for a show. They are just acting natural by not being concerned with being nude. It seems and I could be wrong, old guys are more secure with their sexuality than younger men.

It concerns me that as time passes men will become even more modest and in my opinion that is not healthy. In time men will have as poor body image of themselves and most women do these days.


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## chillymorn

I have also noticed that the younger guys at the gym do the dress with a towel thing.....lol they remind me of how my mom would do it when I was a young lad.

some don't take a shower at all..

think I'll have another talk with them tonight.


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## Code-Welder

chillymorn said:


> they remind me of how my mom would do it when I was a young lad.


You hit the nail on the head, many young men today act like women when it comes to modesty. I recall my mother dressing like that and that was a very long time ago. My DDW did as well around our sons, which made sense after they were 3-4 years old.

I myself never really thought much about this topic till my grandsons brought it up on a camping trip. It seems to be a issue when they were starting into puberty. That is a sensitive time for males, even myself. Prior to that they always showered with their fathers and myself. 

When they mentioned how no one showers after gym that started a whole conversation about men and showers and modesty. Now my grandsons no longer worry and shower with my sons and I.

Most of the other younger men shower in swim suits at the camp ground. That is their choice. I am not saying modesty is a bad thing, but there needs to be a balance. Men should not be scared to shower in the nude with other men. Just my thoughts.


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## not recognizable

Why is not wanting to reveal your body to strangers or to see other people's not so attractive nudity a "hang up"?


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## OhGeesh

Code-Welder said:


> This came up in a thread else where in the forum but it got me thinking and talking to my son's and grandsons over Christmas. It seems males today are much more modest around not only other men but it seem around women more so than they were back 30-40 years ago.
> 
> I am in my late 60s and though some men were modest in general most men were not as they are today. Nor was how society treated males and modesty. Example at the YMCA males we required to swim nude. It did not seem to be a concern and it was treated as normal. Based on what my grandsons tell me as well as my sons boys do not even shower after gym class these days.
> 
> I do not know they average age on this site but wonder, how many men here are modest when it comes to using public showers or going to the gym. Or in general, it was not uncommon when I was in my youth to skinny dip with my male buddies. There was nothing sexual about it, it was just easier to strip and swim in the lake than carry around swimming shorts or to get our clothing wet.
> 
> In my late teens early 20s it was common for mixed couples to swim together. Most times everyone would swim natural. I do recall some of the girls would wear bottoms but most were always topless. When I mentioned this to my grandsons as part of the discussion they seemed shocked.
> 
> I guess I am wondering if this is the new norm for men under the age of say about age 30? I have read a interesting analogy as to why by jaquen. I was just curious why males today are more modest. The thread was well viewed with over 43,277 looks, on something that in my past was seldom even talked about. Men just knew the answer for the most part since there was less modesty.


I think women in general far more sexual, freaky, into it, forward, getting what they want.

I think guys are more modest!! I know I am going all the way back to highschool I hated be naked in front of other guys.

I don't like being naked in front of women too much either.......I don't like looking at 100% naked women very much I feel guilty.


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## Code-Welder

OhGeesh said:


> I think women in general far more sexual, freaky, into it, forward, getting what they want.
> 
> I think guys are more modest!! I know I am going all the way back to highschool I hated be naked in front of other guys.
> 
> I don't like being naked in front of women too much either.......I don't like looking at 100% naked women very much I feel guilty.


I am comfortable with my body and it does not matter to me being naked in front of either sex. I prefer being nude in front of women. 

I wonder if younger men who are modest when it comes to showers and other males have any concerns or hang ups about being nude in front of women?


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## couple

I disagree that young people are more modest today. Some observations:

-It's very common for teens to take phone photos of themselves or pose for photos with a level of nakedness and to share these photos or have them taken knowing that they will be shared.

-Webcamming - it's not unusual for students over 18 to titillate over the webcam for money or just for thrills - by themselves or as couples. Today the threshold for doing 'adult work' and the stigma attached is much lower - no need to work in a creepy strip club, etc. Technology has propelled exhibitionism.

-Mainstream stores like abercrombie and fitch sell a lot of sex and teens are influenced by this.

-Public shower designs (like many other things in society) have evolved to better accommodate what people have always preferred. Just because showers were more open in the past and people 'endured' it, doesn't mean that it's a preference. Sure some people didn't think anything about it but many others were uncomfortable.

-Beachwear is more revealing than ever among teens and young adults. Just because it is not the norm for women to go bare breasted on the beach in the US, doesn't mean that society is more modest than countries where this is common. I think it's funny that so many read so much into this point. 'Modesty' in it's widest sense in a society is complex and you can't just look at one or two points if you really want to understand the differences.

-General openness about everything - in the 'good old days' people talked much less about sexuality and were much more closed. Today people are all over television (reality tv and others) and the internet talking about everything and revealing their bodies. There is less sense of shame and people hide aspects of themselves less than in the past.

I'm not making moral or any other judgments about right or wrong just pointing out that people really are much less modest than in the past. Group showers and the few other things mentioned are poor gauges of a society's modesty.


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## MrAvg

Code-Welder said:


> I am comfortable with my body and it does not matter to me being naked in front of either sex. I prefer being nude in front of women.
> 
> I wonder if younger men who are modest when it comes to showers and other males have any concerns or hang ups about being nude in front of women?


If you are not comfortable with being nude around other males, how do most young men feel when they first have sex and get nude with a girl? Or do they now leave much of their clothing on?

I am not modest and I am not a great physical specimen. There was a great thread on TAM that had younger guys talking to older guys about public showers and it was surprising how many of them were enlightened by the old guys. The thread allowed them to better understand the mentality of a men's locker room. It was deleted which is to bad. I had my sons read it and them found it insightful.

To each their own, if people want to be modest that is fine with me. As long as they do not think someone who is not modest is not normal.


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## ConanHub

Don't know what is normal or not about locker rooms, but I do not care about seeing other guys "swinging" in the wind and I am no prude.
When I was a kid I didn't care about cloths at all.
When I was in high school, I only cared about keeping my junk covered, but I had no problem going commando at coed swimming parties or hot tub get together.
Being married means my junk and my trunk are Mrs. Conans property, so only she and my doctor get to see them anymore.

When I am at the gym, some guys, usually older, seem to enjoy being naked around men.
I don't, but as long as they keep it in the locker room, no big deal.


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## OhGeesh

Feeling-Lonely said:


> I am N Europe and we go to saunas naked, family, friends, strangers, even in bigger ski resorts saunas are usually nude, you have your towel but no one would be too shy and hide, there is nothing sexual about it is all about body and soul relaxation.
> 
> I remember taking saunas with my sports coach (he was also dad of one of the girls) after games and talk about the game, he was also certificated sports medic and massage therapist, he would attend to our sport related injuries and often naked, massage a sour muscle and so on. Other parents would sometimes come to saunas too. It just worked in that part of the world.


Yeah  I don't like being naked around my spouse. If she said "Hey, go get naked and go stand under that light so I can look at you?" I would say NO!!

I don't like look at her totally naked either.......maybe it's my religious upbringing idk never has felt right.

Glad you like being free that's all th matters we are all different.


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## Code-Welder

Feeling-Lonely said:


> I am N Europe and we go to saunas naked, family, friends, strangers, even in bigger ski resorts saunas are usually nude, you have your towel but no one would be too shy and hide, there is nothing sexual about it is all about body and soul relaxation.
> 
> I remember taking saunas with my sports coach (he was also dad of one of the girls) after games and talk about the game, he was also certificated sports medic and massage therapist, he would attend to our sport related injuries and often naked, massage a sour muscle and so on. Other parents would sometimes come to saunas too. It just worked in that part of the world.


I have been to Northern Europe where it seems most people are far more comfortable with their body image. I think much of it has to do with exactly what you are mentioning. It is not a sexual thing. Here in the US and many other places nudity is equated to sex or sexuality. It does not always have to be that way.

Mravg and others have made good points on both side of the viewpoint. If people had a healthier attitude as expressed above about their bodies I feel more people were like Feeling-Lonely most folks would have a better self esteem and body image that what is evolving in the USA.


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## Davelli0331

I don't really think it's an issue of modesty. It seems every year there's more and more stories in the news of girls dressing slinkier at younger ages.

And with the advent of the camera phone, it is not uncommon for people to send and receive lots of nude, semi-nude, or otherwise provocative images of themselves and others. The nude "selfie" is now a regular part of dating culture in America.

Then you take into account websites that allow users to anonymously upload nude pictures of themselves (e.g. Reddit) and you have even more people being freer with their nudity.

TBH I think the real issue here with regard to men being naked around each other is that there is a high level of self consciousness due to fear of being perceived as homoerotic or outright gay. While American culture is beginning to celebrate the so-called "lipstick lesbian" (for altogether wrong reasons), male homosexuality is still considered pretty taboo.


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## Code-Welder

Davelli0331 said:


> TBH I think the real issue here with regard to men being naked around each other is that there is a high level of self consciousness due to fear of being perceived as homoerotic or outright gay. .


That had been brought up in the thread that was deleted and I think you are correct. It seems to be a main reason for the change of how guys now shower or do not use open public showers.Why would men today be more concerned than men in the past, what has changed? Do men feel less secure about their sexuality today than back in the early 70s? Is this healthy as compared to getting body image only from the media.

As for the self pic via phone that is still pretty much it would seem to be for part to be shared between two people. I do agree girls are dressing with less at a younger age, but they are still dressed. That concerns me as well as to why parents allow young girls to dress that way. I can recall when halter tops on young girls was taboo. Less clothing and is also a trend in media and I am not sure which came first. My feelings are the media is driving the clothing choices and habits more than following.

When I was growing up mostly women were modest and now it seem that men under age 40 are as modest as women use to be. I hope it does not lead to the same concerns many women have about body image. Based on what I have read in TAM threads and else where.


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## Davelli0331

I think that the idea that a man would be gay was so far outside the norm back then that it was effectively impossible in the minds of most men, so being naked around other men had no homoerotic connotations.


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## arbitrator

*Modesty has never really been a problem with me. Going back to the Jr. High, High School and Collegiate Football locker rooms, where you just quickly got acclimated to it. Then when I got older, I got into football refereeing where you had more locker room nudity.

With age, it still doesn't really bother me. But conversely, there are other males who are extremely modest, covering up in the locker room and choosing to shower alone even when our locker rooms have community showers. And I respect that. That's them and I don't ever give it a second thought.

And the first time I ever had sex, it really didn't bother me or my girlfriend either, for that matter.*


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## Fozzy

Nothing wrong with nudity in the locker room. Just please dont sit on the couch. God.


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## Pius

I have to disagree with most of you. I have no desire to see other men naked or for other men to see me. Some things are meant to be private. I like the fact that in my gym they have individual shower stalls. I don't see why it's considered "unhealthy" by some to want to keep certain things private - to me the opposite is unhealthy. It's one thing if you're in the military and it's a necessity, but barring circumstances like that I think people should be given their privacy.


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## Caribbean Man

Interesting topic.

I remember when I was a kid, I didn't do the gym , but I preferred swimming.
I was in a swimming club , and at the pool we had to shower naked before we got into the pool , and the stall was open. No cubicles.
Wasn't a problem for me really and at 11 yrs old I was by far the youngest on the team.
Nudity among other men wasn't a problem for me then.

I now work out in a public gym and in the locker room the shower stalls are enclosed . Some guys still come out of the stalls naked and towel themselves dry .
No big thing , but most guys especially the younger ones won't be caught dead naked .
I don't use the showers though , because over the years I've developed a 
" germ a phobia" and I no longer use public toilets or showers.


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## Singledude21

Davelli0331 said:


> I think that the idea that a man would be gay was so far outside the norm back then that it was effectively impossible in the minds of most men, so being naked around other men had no homoerotic connotations.


Its so bad now, you have a dorm shower hall FULL of showers, and us guys would literally go one at a time if we heard it on, literally living about 10 spaces completely empty


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## arbitrator

*I don't think that anyone intentionally wants to see anyone else's nakedness by design, and I would surmise the very same for even those who like being in nudist's environs. They are there simply because they largely enjoy being without clothing in an open but largely controlled environment, much rather than being there for any self-serving prurient interests.

Frankly, I couldn't ever see myself in any such setting other than maybe skinny-dipping with my wife or SO on some private property where I knew that we wouldn't be bothered or on some secluded island in Oceania where we would be the only ones there!

But as far as showers go, I think that guys in this day and age are far more modest than men of the past. When I first started officiating some 35 years ago, it was uncommon for any of the crew members not to shower. That was probably a throwback to the community showers that our schools provided and expected us to use, or the very same provided in the military.

Nowadays, you may find some crew members who, being heavily sweaty from having worked a game, simply come right back into the locker room and put their street clothes right back on after the game, saying that they'll just shower when they get home, even if they have a 4 hour drive back to the house.

Either way, it's no real problem. It's clearly their choice! Unless of course, they're planning on riding back home in the same car that I am. I really don't think I'd care to smell them for several hours!*


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## Code-Welder

Pius said:


> I have to disagree with most of you. I have no desire to see other men naked or for other men to see me. Some things are meant to be private. I like the fact that in my gym they have individual shower stalls. I don't see why it's considered "unhealthy" by some to want to keep certain things private - to me the opposite is unhealthy. It's one thing if you're in the military and it's a necessity, but barring circumstances like that I think people should be given their privacy.


"I think people should be given their privacy." I agree.
May I ask how old are you?


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## Code-Welder

"I think that the idea that a man would be gay was so far outside the norm back then that it was effectively impossible in the minds of most men, so being naked around other men had no homoerotic connotations."

This does seem to keep coming up as a major reason open public showers are shunned. Are men today less comfortable with their sexuality these days?


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## treyvion

Caribbean Man said:


> Interesting topic.
> 
> I remember when I was a kid, I didn't do the gym , but I preferred swimming.
> I was in a swimming club , and at the pool we had to shower naked before we got into the pool , and the stall was open. No cubicles.
> Wasn't a problem for me really and at 11 yrs old I was by far the youngest on the team.
> Nudity among other men wasn't a problem for me then.
> 
> I now work out in a public gym and in the locker room the shower stalls are enclosed . Some guys still come out of the stalls naked and towel themselves dry .
> No big thing , but most guys especially the younger ones won't be caught dead naked .
> I don't use the showers though , because over the years I've developed a
> " germ a phobia" and I no longer use public toilets or showers.


I clean thoroughly and my feet and between my toes, etc.

Yesterday in the gym I saw a guy with what looked like warts on the proverbial witch. They looked like they would bust or something, definately did not look like something I would want to risk contact with!

Made me consider taking my home gym option alot more seriously.


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## arbitrator

*Public and Private Schools and Collegiate athletic facilities, even today, usually have community showers in the boys dressing areas, but individual showers in the girls areas. The community showers were employed largely because they have the marked potential to save time and money for those institutions. The girls, conversely, are still usually allowed individual shower stalls probably because of their individual modesty concerns.

In any event, schools nowadays as opposed to in the past, do not really require students to shower after working out after PE Class or even after an organized athletic practice.

Now when we football officials show up at a high school or college to officiate, we are, more often than not, sent to an empty, secure boys locker room and shower in which to dress. The more affluent schools, however, have built officials locker rooms that often have individual showers, but some have community showers as well!*


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## Pius

Code-Welder said:


> "I think people should be given their privacy." I agree.
> May I ask how old are you?


I am 37


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

A couple summers ago a woman stopped with a little kid, maybe around age 3, to go swimming in our home town harbor which has a little beach. Someone made a stink that the child was swimming in only bottoms and did not have her top covered (long hair being the only gender "identifying" characteristic) and after a donation, child sported "new" swimsuit of Band-Aids across her nipples. Townspeople all smug sitting watching outsider from Big City who complained. Truth is, after dark, most of the locals swim in the buff. Especially when the wells are low on water.

In Iceland I hear you have to shower naked with your gender (maybe mixed in some places?) and wash specific parts of your body thoroughly and if you don't you can almost guarantee you will be (publicly) admonished and monitored while complying.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgref...ol&tbnid=5jXJLUlWZZ8C0M:&docid=N2NZuL00D4_dYM


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## Caribbean Man

treyvion said:


> I clean thoroughly and my feet and between my toes, etc.
> 
> Yesterday in the gym I saw a guy with what looked like warts on the proverbial witch. They looked like they would bust or something, definately did not look like something I would want to risk contact with!
> 
> Made me consider taking my home gym option alot more seriously.


I have my own gym at home.
But I'm into heavy weights and prefer train with professionals.
The gym I'm in is a very hygienic one.
When you enter and check in via finger scanner , they give you a rag and an alcohol spray to wipe the equipment before and after use.

The locker rooms , toilets and showers are cleaned every hour.
The fees are a bit expensive, but at least my mind is comfortable.


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## johnAdams

I have to admit, I am not modest. We have vacationed at several clothing optional resorts and beaches. Both my wife and I are comfortable being nude. I am more than her. She will lay in he lounger on the beach or at the pool and put on a cover up when getting up. I am fine with just walking around naked.


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## Caribbean Man

This thread really made me realize how much times have changed.

When I was a boy sometimes a group of us would run away from school, up by the water resevior , stripped naked and enjoy the water.

Even as an adult , when I go camping / hunting with guys , we usually spend almost a week in the forests.
If we happen to come by a river, we remove clothes and take a quick bath or just wash the " vital parts."


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## Code-Welder

Pius said:


> I am 37


I thought you might be under age 40, that was about the time mandatory showers after gym class were no longer required. 

I did not mean to offend you by my comments about what is acceptable for public showers. We just come from different times. I grew up forced to take showers with my peers where I would gather you were not. There is nothing wrong with some modesty. I was once modest till I was forced to shower after gym and it was a little intimidating. But that was soon gone and now it is no different to me to use a public shower or my own at home. 

The one thing that does concern me is if men start having poor body image as most women in the USA seem to have now. They all used for the most part private stalls and seldom used public showers with other women. I know this is a generalization. After reading the replies in a thread about body image and women it seem pervasive.


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## captainstormy

I'll be 30 in March so that should put a time frame on my post.

In Elementary school I don't think we even changed for gym class. At least I don't recall ever doing it. Maybe we did. :scratchhead:

In Middle school, we defiantly changed before and after gym class but it was obvious we weren't supposed to shower. They only gave us about 10 minutes from the time we were done with gym class until the time we were supposed to be in the next class. There were around 12-15 guys and only 3-4 shower heads in the shower area of the locker room. No way that was enough time for everyone to shower and get to the next class.

In High School I always scheduled my gym class to be the last period of the day. It put me right next door to the football field and locker room for football practice after school. 

Most of the guys would shower after football practice/weight lifting. The typical tiled room with drains in the floor and a dozen shower heads or so on the wall.

The freshman were typically a bit shy, but typically became less shy after a few weeks in the locker room. Not all guys would shower after practice/weights/games/etc but I'd say half or more typically did.

I was also in the boy scouts as a kid. It was actually against the rules to not wear swim trunks while you swam or showered at camp. I thought it was kind of silly at the time, but now I can see why with all the fear of lawsuits and such.


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## John Lee

When I was a kid I didn't like to dress in front of other kids because I was afraid of getting picked on or made fun of.

When I go to the gym now, I don't have a problem showering in front of other guys in open showers or whatever. I actually find it really relaxing in a way to just be able to get a good workout, spend a little time in the sauna, and shower and not sweat it -- maybe because it helps me get over all that bad feeling from when I was a kid. But it took some getting used to.

One thing is that today there are many more openly gay men. I don't have a problem with openly gay men, but it can make it a little more uncomfortable to shower/dress in the gym, especially when there's a guy who's obviously strutting around trying to get some attention or something.


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## Malky1954

I think it is an age and culture thing. At school (in England) after football (soccer) the guys would get in one big bath together to get rid of the mud. And then get out and towel off together. Nobody thought twice about it.


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## Tripper

I know a lot of younger people in their 20's-30's from work and they seem fairly open when speaking about their sexuality, personal experiences and things that go on at parties....and many of the younger women dress in a far from modest fashion.

I lived in Germany while in the Army and traveled quite a bit while there and I was amazed
Sex is everywhere in Europe...Nudity in public parks, beaches, on billboards, in commercials...even game shows! One show on in Germany during daytime was all about sex, various kinky lifestyles, porn...you name it it was on this show....The stunt c0ck segment on one episode was hilarious

While living there I was told by a college professor that sex based crimes like rape and so on are much lower throughout Europe than in the U.S....I have never researched that but I believe it.

Modesty will destroy all of mankind!!!!


Just kidding....

I think Pee Wee Herman will be...I just saw him on tv the other day...If that's not a sign of impending doom I don't know what is?????


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## I Notice The Details

I recently went to a NBA basketball game and went to the restroom. There was a 40 foot trough all the way across one long wall in this restroom....that all of the men walked up to, and urinated in. Every man had their stallion out and were doing their business....there was no privacy at all...and yet, it was no big deal. 

As I stood there peeing, it hit me that WOMEN could NOT do this...be so open in public like this. I know my wife couldn't. Imagine 30 toilets lined up with NO walls or stalls between them. I think women are more self conscious then men in this instance. Am I right ladies?


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## Code-Welder

I Notice The Details said:


> I recently went to a NBA basketball game and went to the restroom. There was a 40 foot trough all the way across one long wall in this restroom....that all of the men walked up to, and urinated in. Every man had their stallion out and were doing their business....there was no privacy at all...and yet, it was no big deal.
> 
> As I stood there peeing, it hit me that WOMEN could NOT do this...be so open in public like this. I know my wife couldn't. Imagine 30 toilets lined up with NO walls or stalls between them. I think women are more self conscious then men in this instance. Am I right ladies?


Last time I was at a game and they had a trough urinal there was a line of younger guys waiting for the 3 stalls with toilets. It seemed they were concerned with using a communal urinal.

Young men are becoming more and more modest like women it seems. At least when it comes to using public bathrooms and showers. I hope in the long term it does not have the same effect on men and body image.


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